HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Subject: Re: Idaho
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 23:18:15 GMT
Organization: Apple
Followup-To: talk.religion.misc

In article <1992Oct9.142839.20827@csrd.uiuc.edu>, skinner@sp1.csrd.uiuc.edu
(Gregg M. Skinner) wrote:
> (There are, of course, vast differences between the claim that Idaho
> exists and the various claims about Jesus.  Valid criticisms can be
> made of the latter.  But this particular criticism is pathetic.)

Is is pathetic because it hurts?

Cheers,
Kent
	Faith is often the boast of the man who is too lazy to	investigate. -F.M.
Knowles
-------------------
Kent Sandvik (UUCP: ....!apple!ksand; INTERNET: ksand@apple.com)
DISCLAIMER: Private activities on the Net.
From: ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: I'm God. (long)
Date: 8 Oct 92 01:35:16 GMT
Followup-To: talk.religion.misc
Organization: Apple

In article <1992Oct6.135702.1920@csrd.uiuc.edu>, skinner@sp1.csrd.uiuc.edu
(Gregg M. Skinner) wrote:
> 
> In light of the criticism that most "evidence" for "Jesus" comes from
> believers, I'd like to repost something that appeared in
> rec.humor.funny a few months ago.  My intent here is simply to provide
> food for thought.  The article is long, but humorous.

I guess it was a naive attempt to map this Idaho joke to those
who don't believe Jesus was a God.  The problem is that every
American knows that Idaho is real, many of them have even visited
the place. However any attempts to proove Jesus was real is based
on ancient stories, myths, and stories retold, retold, edited,
and yet again translated. Anyone played the game where you whisper
a statement to the person to the right? Another attempt to show
the issues involved, I do believe in Ukko Pekka, the Finnish 
God, because he is described in Kalevala and my ancient relatives
believed in him. And anything written in Kalevala is true!

Cheers,
Kent
	Faith is often the boast of the man who is too lazy to	investigate. -F.M.
Knowles
-------------------
Kent Sandvik (UUCP: ....!apple!ksand; INTERNET: ksand@apple.com)
DISCLAIMER: Private activities on the Net.
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Idaho
Date: 12 Oct 92 17:24:46 GMT
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.

In article <1992Oct12.154305.914@csrd.uiuc.edu> g-skinner@uiuc.edu writes:
>>You don't have to believe in Idaho to buy a plane ticket there.  You do have
>>to believe the Bible before you can use the Bible as evidence.  The Idaho
>>evidence "comes from believers" in the sense that someone who doesn't believe
>>in Idaho probably isn't going to sell plane tickets to go there, but not in
>>the sense that you already have to believe in Idaho before plane flights are
>>any good to you as evidence.
>I agree that one must decide to believe the Bible before it becomes
>testimonial evidence for Jesus.
>In the same way, however, one must believe flight schedules before
>"plane flights" can be any good as evidence for Idaho.  And flight
>schedules that include Idaho are prepared by believers....

Surely you must believe plane schedules before taking a plane to Idaho.  You
also must believe in words and language, and for that matter the existence of
a world outside your head where such objects as Bibles exist, to read a Bible.
That is not what people mean when they criticize "evidence" for Jesus as
coming from believers, though.  You'll never see me say "Biblical evidence is
no good because I don't believe there's such a thing as printed words, or
books."

I already handled the objection about flight schedules prepared by believers.
In one sense, this evidence "comes from believers".  But it doesn't "come from
believers" in the same way that biblical "evidence" does, since you don't have
to be a believer to examine it.
--
"the bogosity in a field equals the bogosity imported from related areas, plus
the bogosity generated internally, minus the bogosity expelled or otherwise
disposed of."  -- K. Eric Drexler

Ken Arromdee (UUCP: ....!jhunix!arromdee; BITNET: arromdee@jhuvm;
     INTERNET: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)
From: prasanth@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Ravi K. Prasanth)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: OCA Initiative (was: Family values defined)
Date: 13 Oct 92 09:10:50 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network

In article <70918@hydra.gatech.EDU>, rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts) writes:
> 
> If your respect for me dropped because I support the following,
> then that's fine.
> 
> "The govt cannot facilitate and must discourage homosexual and other
> behavior.  All of government may not use their moneys or property
> to promote, encourage or facilitate homosexuality, pedophilia, sadism
> or masochism.
>
> All of government, including the education system must assist in 
> setting a standard for youth which recognizes that these behaviors 
> are 'abnormal, wrong, unnatural and perverse,' and are to be 
> discouraged and avoided.  The State may not recognize the conduct 
> under 'sexual orientation' or 'preference' labels, or through 
> quotas, minority status, affirmative action, or similar concepts. 
>

I have two questions for Richard. If you replace homosexuality by
idol worship in the paragraphs above, will you still support it ? 
If you wont, why ?

> Sincerely,
> Richard Pitts
> -- 
> rpitts@cerl.gatech.edu       |    
> Atlanta, GA                --|-- 
>                         -|-  |  -|-
>                          |   |   |

RKP
From: rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: I'm God.
Date: 7 Oct 92 17:00:45 GMT
Organization: CERL-EE, Georgia Institue of Technology

In article <ksand-061092184318@wintermute.apple.com> ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik) writes:
|In article <70217@hydra.gatech.EDU>, rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard
|Pitts) wrote:
|> |Any number of the numerous bystanders that were around when "Jesus"
|> |presumably performed his feats.
|> 
|> How many bystanders do you know rush home and write about what they
|> just saw?  Not many - people close to a movment write about it, along
|> with those who are opposed to it, in general.
|
|I would do it! Immediately, it would be the biggest thing I would have
|ever witnessed in my whole life. For the rest of my life I would tell
|it and re-tell it. I don't think miracles such as rising people from the
|dead are taken for granted, exactly. 

You, by the statement of your zeal here, give credence for what the people
did write.  They did witness it (there were over five hundred that
saw Jesus alive).  I think there were many gospels, as Luke points out,
but only the one's that were really close or first hand (the apostles
and thier companions) were canonized.

You are right - the resurrection from the dead was not taken for granted.
The people did write about it - just like you say you would write about
it, but you seem to say that they could not have experienced such things.
They had the zeal that you would have had you been there, but isn't it
their zeal that you use against them?  Should they have been timid?

|Could we keep these postings short, please? I don't think many are
|keen to read long-long postings.

Sure, I'll try.

For Christ and His Kingdom,
Richard Pitts
-- 
rpitts@cerl.gatech.edu       |    
Atlanta, GA                --|-- 
                        -|-  |  -|-
                         |   |   |
From: ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: LDS Syllogism? ( was Re: Arrogance (was Family values defined))
Date: 8 Oct 92 01:30:27 GMT
Followup-To: talk.religion.misc
Organization: Apple

In article <70146@hydra.gatech.EDU>, rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard
Pitts) wrote:
> 
> In article <ksand-051092180104@wintermute.apple.com> ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik) writes:
> >The times where people will die due to their beliefs are soon over,
> >hopefully.
> 
> Is this for Christian beliefs only?  Kent today people are dying 
> all over the world for their beliefs.  Look at the Yugoslavia thing.

That's why I placed the word 'hopefully' at the end of the sentence.
Actually, I do think that large scale religious wars style medieval
Europe running down to Jerusalem or killing natives in the name of 
Jesus are actually over. We have more common sense today.

> Look at all the Islamic persecution of Christianity in the predominantly
> Islamic countries.  Just last month a Christian preacher was killed
> in South America by the Shiny Back Gorillas for preaching to his native
> peoples, as was his grandfather kill a couple of years ago for the 
> same thing.  Brother Andrew with the Christian ministry Open Doors 
> (initially smuggling bibles into Communist countries and now Islamic
> countries) told us Saturday night that more people are dying for their
> faith today than ever before.
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I think this is an overstatement of the grand scale. People die due
to political and racial fights, that's true. However could you describe
one single huge war based on religious differences going on today? Don't
mention Bosnia, because we are dealing with a racial dispute.

As I know the major wars going on just now are:
Bosnia-Serbia - racial war based on conquering of land
Somalia - internal political war

Actually the only ones I could think of are really local small
ones that don't get a lot of media attention, those could be 
huge, however as stated before we are not dealing with huge
wars based on religious differences. There's actually one
war front based on the clash between Islam and native religions,
and that's Sudan. Anyway, I think you just want to believe that
we are at the final days, the problem is that it's darned hard
to find those huge wars Jesus predicted :-).

Kent
	Faith is often the boast of the man who is too lazy to	investigate. -F.M.
Knowles
-------------------
Kent Sandvik (UUCP: ....!apple!ksand; INTERNET: ksand@apple.com)
DISCLAIMER: Private activities on the Net.
From: psyrobtw@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Robert Weiss)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Mormons are not JW's
Date: 15 Oct 92 16:17:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Oct15.131047.5126@infonode.ingr.com>, tensmekl@infonode.ingr.com (Kermit Tensmeyer) writes...
>In article <1992Oct15.042012.17844@newsgate.sps.mot.com> ACUS10@WACCVM.SPS.MOT.COM (Mark Fuller) writes:

[...]

>  You Quote from JW material, you use JW-like scriptures.
> 
>  The only "other" group that get hung up about the name of God
>  being Jehovah and the Christ isn't Jehovah is 
>  the "Watchtower Bible Study"

	I don't think that you read Mark's offerings too well. Part of 
his posts on the LORD in the OT shows that Jesus is Jehovah. Which is 
the opposite of what you have portrayed above.

=============================
Robert Weiss
psyrobtw@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu
From: bunner@vms.macc.wisc.edu (Dana A. Bunner)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Joseph a true latter-day prophet
Date: 13 Oct 92 04:32:23 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin Academic Computing Center

In article <b6Yb02Ji25UU01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com>, agr00@ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose) writes...

I just have a couple of questions.

>No one is picking on you!  Joseph Smith said about the Christian churches,
>that they were ALL wrong, ALL their creeds were an abomination, and every
>one who professes that faith were corrupt (PGP, JS 1:19).  He started
>all this.  We didn't.

Is it your contention that none of the various denominations which were
blanketing western New York during the 1800-1850 period with revivals, ever
regarded the other religions as being wrong?

What do you think of other religions which fail your Christian test?

Dana
From: pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: OCA Initiative (was: Family values defined)
Date: 15 Oct 92 20:24:25 GMT
	<1992Oct14.181203.25393@blaze.cs.jhu.edu>
Organization: this train carry no back sliders, this train

In article <1992Oct14.181203.25393@blaze.cs.jhu.edu> 
arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:
>In article <1992Oct14.160654.18122@news.cs.brandeis.edu> 
aaron@binah.cc.brandeis.edu writes:
>>Keep the story of the adulterous woman (John 8:2-11) in mind.  Jesus
>>(implicitly) acknowledges that the legal judgement arrived at by the Pharisees
>>was correct in verse 7 but goes on to challenge them with the famous, "He
>>who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."
>>[John 8:7 (NASB)]  You may arrive at the correct legal judgement that someone
>>is guilty of homosexuality.  But we are all sinners, EQUALLY fallen in God's
>>eyes and therefore are not qualified to pass judgement.  
>This reasoning suggests that no Christian is qualified to judge a murderer as
>wrong, either.

Remember that separation of church and state thing? It's a subtle concept, but
here is the reason. There is a difference between religious law and societal
law in any reasonable multi-cultural society. No Christian is qualified to 
JUDGE another religiously, period! There is only one JUDGE for those who call 
themselves Christians and follow Jesus. But any Christian is qualified to 
participate in the greater society, any Christian is qualified to judge a 
murderer in a court of law, but that is judge by the rules of society, not by
the rules of one's religion. And the judgement is a legal, secular judgement,
not a judgement of condemnation to Hell. The separation of church and state
is the only way to have a reasonable society in any multi-cultural, multi-
religious society. Religious laws are not to be FORCED onto people, people
chose to follow or not follow, that's the whole point. Societal laws are a 
different case, obviously in this case this law must be enforced.
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: All you need is SLACK! was Stop thinking? was Why I am an atheist
From: kmagnacca@eagle.wesleyan.edu
Date: 10 Oct 92 01:52:31 EDT
Organization: Wesleyan University

In article <fTIGXoK@quack.sac.ca.us>, pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey) writes:
> 
> Proof of "Bob's" global empire is everywhere, even your local telephone
> directory. There are subsidiaries in your town ... see for YOURSELF!!!

   I did.  There isn't.  Not even anyone named Dobbs in the phonebook.

Karl
From: slhw4@cc.usu.edu (Jason Hunsaker)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Are Mormons Christians?
Date: 14 Oct 92 11:18:43 MDT
Organization: Utah State University

In article <1992Oct14.010227.9510@cbnewsd.cb.att.com>, 
press2@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (barry.o.olson) writes:
> ACUS10@WACCVM.SPS.MOT.COM (Mark Fuller) writes:
>> slhw4@cc.usu.edu (Jason Hunsaker) writes:
>> [...]
>>> Hmmm...  Looks to me like the figure has a *very* long outie
>>> navel or it is ment to be the figure's right fore-arm.
[...]
> Maybe he was singing to a crowd with a microphone, and placed
> the microphone between his legs to pause for the painting. 
> Or he was blessing a crowd with a stick of some sort and placed it
> between his legs for the painting. Binary thinking will lead
> you to the penis explanation.

Barry, the figure in question is seated.
The protrusion in question is protruding fron the stomach area,
(I'd guess about halfway between the navel and the solor-plexus)
not the groin, or between the legs.

Maybe the figure is wearing a strap-on dildo and just put it on
too high.  :-)

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Hunsaker  -|-  Logan, Utah  -|-  Internet: slhw4@cc.usu.edu
From: agr00@ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Heresy was (Re: Mormons are not Christians)
Date: 10 Oct 92 20:04:42 GMT
Reply-To: agr00@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <1992Oct9.132753.6411@infonode.ingr.com> tensmekl@infonode.ingr.com (Kermit Tensmeyer) writes:
>In article <27Hs02qn25Rz01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> agr00@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose) writes:
>>In article <1992Oct7.133934.7299@infonode.ingr.com> tensmekl@infonode.ingr.com (Kermit Tensmeyer) writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Mormons have a simpler solution to the overall problem: Children are
>>>>>born without sin. Children who die with out baptism before they are
>>>>>accountable are believe to return to the presence of God.
>>>>
>>>>Can you back this up with Scripture?  What age is acountable?  Eight
>>>>years old?  Is this in the Bible?
>>>
>>> And the precise support for the belief in children being sinless is
>>> one of those that comes from the BoM. 
>>>
>>> The requirment that children are born in Sin is Augistine and Post-Augustine.
>>> It is a non-Biblical doctrine perpertrated ;-) on the opiated masses.
>>
>>This is not true.  We are born into a sinful nature.  "there is NONE that
>>is righteous, no NOT ONE"  (Romans 3:10)
>
>
> LDS: All who become accountable have chosen sin, except for Jesus who
>      did not sin.
>
> Rose and other Evag. "Christians":  Even little children are inheirently
>      Sinfull. It is their nature, because of a sexual act on th part of 
>      their parents.

I nor anyone else here ever said that we were born into sin bacause of
the sexual act of our parents!  You added that part friend.  I said that
we were born into sin.  I said nothing about marital sex, or parental sex.
Where did you get that?  You are misrepresenting ME!

> There are several assumptions here 
>
>  1)  Sex even in marriage is Sinful, Children as a product of that Sinfull
>      act are created in Sin. Children are seperate from God and have
>      no place in the kingdom of God. Jesus was wrong/misinformed.

I didn't assume or state this,   you made it up!

> The bible clearly teaches that man chooses to sin. It does not teach that
> man can not choose to do good.

You must have missed this part then:

     "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who
      understands, no one who seeks God.  ALL have turned away, they
      have together become worthless; there is NO ONE who does good,
      not even ONE."   Romans 3:10-12

     "For ALL have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God."
                       Romans 3:23

     "For I have the desire to do good, but I cannot carry it out.
      For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil
      I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is
      sin living in me that does it"
                       Romans 7:18:20

     "If we say we are sinless we make him out to be a liar and his
      word has no plave in our lives"   1 John 1:10
From: agr00@ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: QUESTION
Keywords: Typical Anti-Mormon Misuse of Social Statistics
Date: 15 Oct 92 01:16:30 GMT
Reply-To: agr00@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose)
Distribution: na
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <1992Oct14.114513.11323@cbnews.cb.att.com> wcsa@cbnews.cb.att.com (willard.smith) writes:
>In article <ebQR02tw25pK01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> agr00@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose) writes:
>|In article <1992Oct13.112556.7628@cbnews.cb.att.com> wcsa@cbnews.cb.att.com (willard.smith) writes:
>|>
>|>I am not exactly sure where Mr Rose got his particular social statistics
>|>(though he doesn't actually show us any numbers), but they are not unlike
>|
>|>As for the murder rate. Perhaps Mr Rose will be so kind as to provide the
>|>actual statistics with comparisons to the national averages and some sources
>|>to follow up on.
>|>-- 
>|>
>|>              Willard C. Smith
>|>  Oh God, Make my Words Palatable and Sweet, | att!cbnews!iwtgo!wcsa
>|>   Because I Might have to Eat all of Them.  | wcsa@iwtgo.att.com
>|^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>|                   (You might!!)
>|
>|
>|I'll look at my references and post my results.  My stats came from a
>|secular source.
>|
>|subject pending.......
>
>
>Well, Mr Rose perhaps I can help you.
>
>Based on the 1990 Uniform Crime Report issued from the FBI the following
>statistics are available:
>
>	(per 100,000)
>
>Crime		Nat'l Rate	Utah Rate
>~~~~~		~~~~~~~~~~	~~~~~~~~~
>Murder		    9.4		  3.0
>Rape		   41.2		 37.8
>Robbery		  257.0		 56.9
>Aggrav Assult	  424.1		186.3
>Burglary	1,235.9		880.6
>
>The overall statistic for violent crime is 731.8 per 100,000 Nationally
>and only 283.9 in the state of Utah.

Well, I don't doubt this, but I can say that they are not the same that
were reported in the Salt Lake Tribune, and Deseret News.  I'll get back
to you on this......

>Now what was that about lunch?

I would love to do lunch sometime!

>-- 
>
>              Willard C. Smith
>  Oh God, Make my Words Palatable and Sweet, | att!cbnews!iwtgo!wcsa
>   Because I Might have to Eat all of Them.  | wcsa@iwtgo.att.com

-tony
From: bunner@vms.macc.wisc.edu (Dana A. Bunner)
Subject: Re: Mormons & Sunstone
Organization:  University of Wisconsin Academic Computing Center
Date:  9 OCT 92 17:42:01    

In article <1992Oct9.184042.149@newsgate.sps.mot.com>, ACUS10@WACCVM.SPS.MOT.COM (Mark Fuller) writes...

Advance apology for amount of non-original material ... I wanted to respond
to a few specific comments.

>From: bunner@vms.macc.wisc.edu (Dana A. Bunner)

>> PS  Interested in hearing "non-traditional" LDS dialogue?  Come to the Chicago
>> Sunstone Symposium held at the Hyatt Regency Deerfield, all day on Oct 17th.
>> For those in the Northwest, I believe another Sunstone Symposium is to be
>> held in Seattle on Oct 24th.  Note -- I am not an employee of Sunstone.
> 
>I would'nt advise it, unless you want to be added to the `Strengthening
>Members' list. :)
<excerpts from SL Tribune cited below>

>The packed room at last week's Sunstone Symposium grew quiet when Eugene
>England took the podium.  The Brigham Young University professor lashed
>out at a little-known committee of the LDS Church: the Strengthening
>Church Members Committee, which keeps secret files on Mormons who
>criticize the church.
> 
>"I accuse that committee of undermining the church," said Mr. England, a
>BYU English professor.

I have no problem in stating my opposition to such a committee and have
stated the same frequently in other LDS forums.

>Just two weeks after the 1991 symposium, the LDS First Presidency and the
>Quorom of Twelve Apostles issued a statement discouraging assocation with
>"symposia" that result in "ridiculing sacred things or injuring the
>Church of Jesus Christ, detracting from its mission, or jeopardizing the
>well-being of its members."

But the statement doesn't say "Sunstone" ;->.

>The 1991 church statement triggered a yearlong debate about the validity
>of public discussion of Mormon issues.  In October, several Sunstone
>participants were questioned by their local ecclesiastical leaders about
>their loyalty to the church.

This appears to have been true.  :-(

>"Such actions must be viewed as a constraint on academic freedom,
>especially for LDS Church members whose employment depends on church
>standing," the letter said.

Aah, the benefits of being a non-church employee!  It generally pays 
better too!

>An editorial in BYU's student newspaper, _The Daily Universe_, attacked
>the Sunstone Symposium as "not an academic forum."

Big deal.  So a few BYU journalism students think it isn't academic.

>Several departments in the LDS Church Office Building threatened
>employees with dire consequences if they attended.  (But Public Affairs
>Department sent six "observers," as they have for many years.)
> 
>Thus, many predicted sparse attendance at this year's Sunstone.  Yet
>1,500 people showed up despite the warnings.

Yep, count me as one of them.  And I observed a few "observers", hope they
enjoyed the sessions as well as I did.

Dana