HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: schroj2@vccsouth25.its.rpi.edu (John Spence Schroder)
Subject: Raleigh area SCA groups - Any contacts??
Keywords: raleigh carolina
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 20:22:30 GMT

Greetings All,

   I will soon be making an 8 month pilgrimage to the area mundanly
known as North Carolina or more specifically the great city known
as Raleigh.  I was wondering if the SCA is active down there or not?
From the SCA lists recently posted I know the name of an SCA group
in Raleigh as Elvegast.
   I would like to know if this group is fairly active as since I'll
be new to the area I'd like to meet some people who in a way are 
already friends.  Since I also love to fight I would like to know
how active any fighters there are so I can make plans weather or not
to bring my 80 or so pounds or armour in my small car. :(

  Any information would be much appreciated.  I'll be at this mail
address until January 8th when I'll be making the long trek down.

Thanks.

-- 
/John S. Schroder                  +  SCA: East Kingdom, Shire of Anglespur    \
/Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute  +  The KLF, Art of Noise, 808 State, RUNDMC \
/schroj2@rpi.edu                   +  ** AMIGA 3000 **  ** Suzuki GS 450E **   \
/=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=\
From: mike@aloysius.equinox.gen.nz (Mike Campbell)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Calendar Wanted 
Distribution: world
Date: Fri, 01 Jan 93 22:54:16 GMT
Organization: Me? Organized?


In article <1992Dec31.162934.22106@pbhya.PacBell.COM> whheydt@PacBell.COM writes:

  > 
  > In article <725767220.AA00000@blkcat.UUCP> Dave.Ar  > onson@p11.f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson) writes:
  > >jww@evolving.com (John W. Woolley) writeth:
  > > JWW> Remember that, no matter the time of year, there are twelve equal hours
  > > JWW> of day and twelve of night; so that in winter day hours are much shorter  > > JWW> than night hours.
  > >
  > >3. Does anyone out there know of any self-adjusting timepieces that would take  > >this stretching and shrinking of hours into account?
  > 
  > Yup.  A sundial.  It was the development of mechanical clocks that
  > changed things--eventually--to an all-hours-are-equal system.
  > Remember that most of history is before mechanical clocks.
  > 
Roman rates of march were:  Normal = 20 miles in 8 Summer hours;  
Forced = 25 miles in 10, so they knew the difference, even back then 
:-)

Mike Campbell, Christchurch, New Zealand
mike@aloysius.equinox.gen.nz 
From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Heraldic questions...
Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1993 19:11:02

    Hans Rancke wrote:

 HR> You may not have meant to do so, but that was certainly the impression I,
 HR> for one, got.

 Well, it was inaccurate.

 HR> Recalling as best I can without the original postings I think that
 HR> Arval argued that Corpora spoke of recreating aspects of the whole of
 HR> Western Culture and that consequently the heraldic styles of
 HR> Scandinavia, Germany, Hungary, Spain, Portugal, etc. were equally as
 HR> valid as the style you (that is, the Society) is currently
 HR> concentrating on (to the exclusion of these styles).

 One might just as well argue that our monarchs ought to be elected by our
 nobles, because the Empire and Poland were run that way.

 The point is that the "scope of the Society" covers a lot of time and a
 lot of area. If we try to "re-create" all of that all at once, then the
 resulting mishmash is nothing ever found in period, and so the underlying
 objective is not attained. There has to be a focus. My argument is, that
 having such a focus *in heraldry* is fully compatible with the purposes of
 the SCA as expressed in Corpora, and by no means will doing so crush out
 diversity in other areas, which is what Arval appears to be afraid of.

 HR> From your reply I gathered that you did not regard anywhere outside
 HR> your "core area" as _truly_ Western Culture (You certainly defined
 HR> Scandinavia as "barbarian fringe", a contention that I take issue
 HR> with, but will leave aside for the moment in the light of your new
 HR> message).

 Well, you gathered wrong. My apologies if I am being insufficiently
 articulate. The "core area" that I specified is certainly not the *whole*
 of "western culture", nor even the *focus* of "western culture", but it IS
 the focus of the aspects of "western culture" that we in the SCA are
 trying to emulate: the noble tourneying society of the High Middle Ages.
 The people who got together to hold the first backyard tournament didn't
 get together to hold a multicultural medieval Disneyland, they got
 together to hold an Arthurian-romance tournament, and there is going to be
 any consistency in the SCA that is the sort of focus that is essential.

    Tadhg, Obelisk

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: SAUNDRSG@qucdn.queensu.ca (Graydon)
Subject: Tadhg's ten word blazon test
Organization: The Internet
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 18:29:00 GMT

Greetings!
Tadhg, are you advocating blazons that only work well in the Anglo-French
style?

While I agree that short blazons are a good sign, I have to wonder
about all the things in Rhiechstap (sp?) that use field divisions
that just plain don't exist in the Anglo-French terminology.  It's
pretty hard to argue that German heraldry wasn't a common practice!

Or are you arguing that we should only use those elements of style
that all the major heraldic art styles had in common?

Graydon
that the
From: doconnor@sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Re:Fighting in crown:a thought
Date: 24 Dec 92 06:28:15
Organization: Intel i960(tm) Architecture
NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.intel.com
In-reply-to: colin@babbage.syd.ips.oz.au's message of Wed, 23 Dec 1992 23:37:59 GMT


colin@babbage.syd.ips.oz.au (Colin Yuile) writes:
 Originator: colin@babbage.syd.ips.oz.au
] Nntp-Posting-Host: babbage.syd.ips.oz.au
]
] nusbache@epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher) writes:
] >Why on earth would you want to open the possibility of becoming SCA
] >royalty to non-fighting couples?
]
] Why not? There are many people who would make great monarchs but 
] either don't fight or are not good fighters.

Allowing championing in crown tourney can't be the only possible
way to allow non-fighting royal couples. If we really want to do
this, we should come up with a way for non-fighters to win crown
by their virtue of their own skills, and not by renting a hot stick.

At least in the current system, a contestant for the crown has
to defeat all the Viscount, Counts and Dukes they meet in the list.
Now, no one can fight every bout in a list full-out, and yes, I
believe it may be possible that Royal Peers put more effort into
defeating an opponent that, fighting merit aside, they feel
would be disastrous rulers. ( This is that "duty to the crown"
special obligation that some feel Royal Peers uniquely hold. )
So the current system does have checks built into it.

] Of course it's terribly un-mediaeval to fight to put ones king on
] the throne :-) :-)

Well, as phrased, it is : you don't put someone whose already
king on the throne, unless it's the throne of another kingdom.

Now THERE's an idea : what if at major wars ( Pennsic or Estrella
(pronounce Eh-stray-uh BTW) for example ) the victorious King and
Queen actually assumed the thrones of the defeated kingdom ? Only for
a short while, of course ( some ceremony for returning the original 
royalty could be cooked up for closing court, perhaps ), but it might
be fun. It would HAVE to be done in the spirit of good fun, of course !

Ah, how good it would be for the infamous invaders from Caid to
feel, even if only briefly, the rightous yoke of Their Majesties
Trelon and Varia, exalted King and Queen of Glorious Aetenveldt !
Now if only my knee will heal in time for the war !
--
Dennis O'Connor			doconnor@sedona.intel.com
From: Beth.Appleton@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: German heraldry
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 15:38:08

>        Ok, do you have a single, widely available, English-language 
>  source for these German words?  One that the 
> local herald of Podunkia 
>  will be able to access when trying to figure out just what the 
>  emblazon should be so they can determine conflict?  

 G> Just a sec-- are you saying that if the answer to this question is
 G> "no", that's a reason to not use the terms?  If we 
 Sorta got it.  I'm not objecting to the thing, just the specific 
 German word for it.  For the system to be usable, we've got to be 
 able to understand without getting too far away from reachable sources. 
 It's not so much the "conflict-checking system" that I'm concerned with 
 -- it's that submittor in Podunkia who's depending on his herald to 
 help him out.  If I've made the Ordinary impenetrable by esoteric 
 phraseology, then I've may have helped convince that submittor that 
 we're just being too hard, so he's not going to play heraldry anymore. 
     An alternate might be to use the word, and insert a descriptive 
 phrase in the Ordinary and Armorial.  I know I've seen at least one 
 blazon in the Ordinary that has a phrase in parenthesis describing it. 
 I do know I've seen commenters say "What the heck is a nesselblatt?", 
 which is one of the German heraldry words we do use.  
     Perhaps we should put the burden of teaching the entire SCA 
 heraldic community on the folks who want to use the German stuff? 
 <tongue in cheek, deforming face tremendously> ;^>......
     (and yes, you got the spelling juuuuust right...)
           Gwenllian Cwmystwyth, Actuarius P., Ansteorra

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Organization: Doctoral student, Industrial Administration, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 22:59:37 -0500 
From: David Schroeder <ds4p+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Midrealm Crown Policy

Good gentles,

Recent discussions about the propriety of fighting in a Crown Tourney
when you have no intention to rule prompted me to consider a related
question.

In the Middle Kingdom entering Crown Tournaments is restricted to
members of the Chivalry plus others on an "invitation only" basis.
I believe, though I'm not sure and would welcome confirmation or
contradiction, that the Midrealm's policy for entering Crowns is
the most restrictive in the Known World.

Historically, this restriction is in place because -- many years
ago -- a man with little experience in the Society made a REAL
mess of things.

My question is this:  

 Does the Middle Kingdom's current 'invitation only' Crown 
 Tournament policy provide a benefit to the Midrealm that
 could not also be gained by setting some sort of 'minimum
 level of SCA activity/experience' needed to enter Crown,
 as many other Kingdoms do?

It seems to me that the positives and negatives of a more open
policy -- one that would allow "dark horse" fighters to win
every now and then -- would counterbalance.

What do other gentles in and out of the Middle Kingdom think?

I'll look forward to your comments and observations...


     Many thanks -- happy holidays -- Bertram

+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Bertram of Bearington                                      Dave Schroeder
Debatable Lands/AEthelmearc/East               Carnegie Mellon University
INTERNET: ds4p@andrew.cmu.edu                         412/731-3230 (Home)
+------------------------ PREME * Press On * PREME ---------------------+
      "He indulged in every excess, yes in each licentious whim..." 
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: brandon@gauss.math.brown.edu (Joshua Brandon)
Subject: Re: Heraldic questions...
Organization: Brown University Mathematics Department
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 19:54:19 GMT

Tadhg:
 > I define "western culture" to include those areas that were part
 > of the western half of the Roman empire, a position for which I
 > suggest that a substantial case could be made. This means
 > Britain, Gaul, Spain, Italy, and I even look askance at most
 > of Germany....

It also included Morocco and Tunisia (or Africa and Numidia, or whatever),
as well as moorish Spain, none of which had much to do with High Feudal
culture.  What was going on it Roman times was *not* the same as
what was going on in the middle ages.

Tadhg:
> No, my desires are much narrower. "South of the Trent, north of the Loire,
> west of the Rhine."

This is neither what you said above, nor what you propose below....

Tadhg:
> Marc Bloch, *Feudal Society*", esp. c. XIII "General Survey of Europe".
> Feudalism developed its highest forms feeding on the fragments of the
> Carolingian empire; England was dragged in when the Normans imposed French
> institutions on the Anglo-Saxons. 

I *know* the Caroingian empire went past the Rhine; I think it went
basically out to the Elbe.

Furthermore, the standards you have proposed for "Western Civilization"
make sense only up to the turn of the millenia or so.  This may be what
*you* want to recreate, but it is *not* what the SCA is restricted to.  By
the time the Crusades were under way, Feudalism across the Elbe had been
well established by the Teutonic Knights (not to mention Angevin Hungary,
etc.), and feudal states were established in the Holy Land and for a time
at Constantinople.  Venetians and Genoans were taking colonies in the
Balkans and along the Black Sea coast, and carrying on a brisk trade with
the Levant and Egypt.  I don't know when the feudal concept hit
Scandinavia, but it did, and it was before 1600 I'm sure.  (No doubt one of
the Nordmarkers will help me on this.)  In 1000 these areas may not have
been part of "Western culture", but in 1500 the Christian areas were, and
the Moslem areas were in close contact.  

			---Simon
From: doconnor@sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Non fighting royalty
Date: 31 Dec 92 08:55:53
Organization: Intel i960(tm) Architecture
NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.intel.com
In-reply-to: snolan@postmaster@hq.af.mil's message of 31 Dec 92 13:10:44 GMT


snolan@postmaster@hq.af.mil (Scott D Nolan) writes:
] In article <>, colin@babbage.syd.ips.oz.au (Colin Yuile) writes:
] |> Given that having interests other than fighting does not make a
] |> a couple less suitable to rule than a fighter, what is so objectionable
] |> about giving non fighters a chance to rule?
]
] There is nothing objectionable about non-fighters ruling at all.
] Actually, there are some advantages to it; but how do you determine
] who will rule without the fighting?
]
] Yes, the gut response is: "A&S competition", but there is an inherent
] problem with this... who determines who the winner of competitions are?
] Judges.  In fighting (and, unfortuneatly, only in fighting), the
] person in the armor is the one who calls the blow.  That means that in
] order to not win at crown tourney, you personally have to admit defeat.
]
] Any other competition (so far), relies on everyone's faith in the
] objectiveness of judges...

I suppose one could run an A&S competition like this, too :
Let every contestant judge every other contestant's work. Keep
the works anonymous. The person who gets the best score wins.

Sure, some people will grade more harshly than others. And some
entrants will have insufficient knowledge to judge some works :
hopefully they'd admit that and not enter a score. If as in combat
we are all assumed to be honorable, I don't see any problems
with such a system that couldn't be easily overcome.

Has anyone ever tried this ?

--
Dennis O'Connor			doconnor@sedona.intel.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mark A. Cochran)
Subject: Re: Are you a Rialto Geek?
Organization: None worth mentioning.
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 93 03:18:21 GMT

In article <726106949.F00002@ocitor.fidonet> Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim) writes:
>    Yaakov wrote:
>
> HF> Awhile ago, someone posted a 'heraldry geek' quiz.  I thought up
> HF> this 'Rialto geek' quiz at about the same time, but didn't have time
> HF> to post it until now.
>
> HF> 1) What is the SSS?
> HF>  Bonus point for each member you can name.
>
>    Sodality of the Sentinels of the Stargate. William of Weyr and William
>    of Weyr.
>
Correct for Ansteorra, but not here.
> HF> 2) What is Soapy?  Who discovered/invented Soapy?
>
>    Proctor & Gamble, before they changed their trademark.
>
Close, but no banana.
> HF> 3) What is the name of the 'Rialto Household'?
>
>    Pigs in Space? (That's just a guess...)
>
Good guess, but sorry...
> HF> 4) Why is it the Rialto?
>
>    Because "GENCON" was taken.
>
This one may be correct, but I don't think so. ;)
> HF> 5) Why do some old-timers still refer to the 'fisher folk' of the
> HF> Rialto?
>
>    Seafood fetish.
I thought this was rec.org.sca, not rec.org.sex.with.fish but maybe
I'm mistaken. :)

Sorry Tadhg, I guess you don't count as a Rialto Geek. How was your
score on the Heraldry Geek test though?

--
                  Mark Cochran          merlin@eddie.ee.vt.edu
These are the views of my employer. They also represent the views of
your employer, your government, the Church of your choice, and the
Ghost of Elvis. So there.
From: Joe.Bethancourt@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Joe Bethancourt)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: 6 On Fealty
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 21:49:10

6 On Fealty
 ------------------------CORPORA--------------------------------------

     VII.A. Patents of Arms

     1) General requirements: Candidates for any order conferring a 
     Patent of Arms must meet the following minimum criteria. 
     Additional requirements may be set by law and custom of the 
     kingdoms as deemed apprpriate and necessary by the Crown. 

     a.) They shall have been obedient to the governing documents of 
     the Society and the laws of the kingdom. 

     b.) They shall have consistently shown respect for the Crown of 
     the kingdom. 

 ----------------------------end of quote-----------------------------

        And let us go back to Corpora once again:

 ------------------------CORPORA--------------------------------------

     VII.A.4.

     b.) The Order of the Laurel. Members of the Order of the Laurel 
     may choose to swear fealty, but are not required to do so. 

     c.) The Order of the Pelican. Members of the Order of the Pelican 
     may choose to swear fealty, but are not required to do so. 

 ----------------------------end of quote-----------------------------

        We can see pretty clearly here that to deny a person the Laurel or
Pelican soley on the basis of their refusal to swear fealty would be a clear
violation of Corpora. To be "obedient to ... the laws of the kingdom" and to
"consistently show respect for the Crown" does -not- require a fealty oath.
        Further, listen to the Monarch's oath (in the Kingdom of Atenveldt) 
at his Coronation: 

 ----------------------------------------------------------------------

        "I (name of Crown Prince) do for my part swear fealty to these 
    knights of Atenveldt and all their households; to protect and defend 
    them and their rights and duties against every creature with all my 
    power; and to hold as my sacred trust this, the Crown of Atenveldt. 
    And I do swear that no man who will not guard the honour of the 
    people of Atenveldt, nor defend the principles of Chivalry; nor 
    protect rigourously the rights of all subjects of the Crown of 
    Atenveldt, and in particular those privileges ordained by Statute and 
    established by custom to be the exclusive perogatives of the 
    Nobility; nor who will swear this solemn oath so to do shall hold 
    this, the Crown of Atenveldt, after me. So say I (and here the Crown 
    Prince shall state his name), Prince of Atenveldt" 

 ----------------------------end of quote------------------------------

        He promises to defend and protect -all- subjects, not just his 
liegemen. This constitutes (in my opinion) a legal fealty contract, though it 
is not "liege" fealty per se (except in the case of the Knights, of course.)
It's actually a pretty strongly worded pledge, and should be studied and 
thought about, HARD, by -every- contender for the Throne.

                        (more)


... One test of good manners is putting up pleasantly with bad ones.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: root@surya.UUCP (Root Account)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Intentional Violence!... Help!
Date: 18 Dec 92 21:08:11 GMT
Organization: Sunshine in a box

viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:

> In <ig70uB2w165w@surya.UUCP> root@surya.UUCP (Root Account) writes:
> 
> >Whoa.  Since when should a crown tourney have a higher level of calibration?
> >If they are hitting too hard, too hard is too hard, period. Striveing to 
> >injure some one is not acceptable fighting, especially in crown.
> 
> 	I had no intention of advocating higher calibration for tourneys
> or any lists for that matter.  On the contrary, I was advocating lower
> calibrations for practice.  My assumption is that it is not necessary to
> go "all out" or otherwise do more than have fun and practice that new
> combination shot at fighter practice.  My apologies if that was unclear.
> 
 
 
 Lower calibration at practice, is the same thing as higher calibration at 
 tourneys. I agree that one should be having fun at practice. One should 
 also be having fun in the tourney. I strive not to take any thing in 
 practice that I wouldnt take in a tourney, at least not with out mentioning 
 it. The exception  being if we are training for targeting.
 
 Chandra
 
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Primitive FireArms
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 18:27:52 GMT

In article <1992Dec31.161255.23102@news.ysu.edu> ae766@yfn.ysu.edu (David Sanders) writes:
>Regardless of the "Guns don't kill people, people kill people"
>argument, the fact that about (more than?) 1 in 2000 people
>in my home town were killed with guns each year for the past 
>three years makes people here uneasy.  My town has a reputation
>for violence.
>
>Think of this:  If 1 in 2000 SCA-folk were murdered each year,
>how many would that be?   

Not to make light of a very UNfunny subject....

The answer depnds a lot on the question--How many SCAers *are* there?

Just counting the Registry numbers (and using your proportion) we lose
about 11 people a year.  By some estimates, we'd lose about 50--the
same as your home town.

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |            You!
510-823-5447                 |    Out of the Gene Pool!
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |
From: Beth.Appleton@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Search for somebody
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 23:47:08

 PR> Does anyone out there know Master Giles Hill?
 I thought he was in Caid?  I would have responded by e-mail, but the 
 gate to Fido leaves me without addresses on the Rialto...
     Gwenllian Cwmystwyth ferch Morfudd
     Steppes, Ansteorra
     Beth.Appleton@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)