HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: muh@physics.Berkeley.EDU (Yury M. Mukharsky)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: "democratic" Estonia
Date: 26 Aug 1992 22:06:28 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Aug26.190808.18156@linus.mitre.org> ptrei@bistromath.mitre.org (Peter Trei) writes:
>border to the east. Now that the colonies have been liberated, they
>should have no more claim on the rights of citizenship than the
>British did in India after independence.

Am I wrong that English is at least among official languges of India?
I think I can find couple of other examples. If you are so eager to 
call your country colony, you should think about fact that the colonies
which did not expell their colonizers are much better off :).

After all, Russians may say that they tried in 1940 mend the harm
done in 1918 by German army :).

>
>     Distinguishing between these two types is the goal of the
>language test.  In their hearts, are these people Estonian, or
>are they something else?

Do you mean Estonians like citizens or Estonians like nation? If citizen,
why language test is important? If nation (which I suspect you really mean),
than you just can not imagine multy-national state. They are their,
you have no choice exept live with them. 

I just do not understand this rush to get rid of one of great languages.
Knowing Russian certanly opens one more door to Great Culture. Person 
who know only Estonian are limited to reading in Estonian, why not
keep what you already have? If you are so affraid that Estonian culture
will be assimilated by Russian, you have rather low opinion about Estonian
culture.

>    No, it's not new (except to those still indoctrinated by Soviet
>propaganda). It's just common sense. Any idea that can make people
>reach beyond their personal concerns carries with it the potential for
>abuse. The Spanish Inquisition was an abuse of religion.  The Nazis
>were an abuse of nationalism. The Soviet Empire was an abuse of
>communism (however wrong-headed communism is, it's inventors did not
>envisage the kind of totalitarian state Lenin and his gang created in
>it's name).

Nazism was natural extension of nationalism, Inquisition of religion,
Soviet empire of communism. All three doctrinas has one thing in common:
they put something above individuals. Actually, communist is most human
of three: it proclaims: "All for the man", at the time when two others
proclaim "All for nation" and "All for the god". Strangely enough the
better the initial idea is the worse implementation. There must be some 
underlying law :).

Yury
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.europe
From: arto@leland.Stanford.EDU (Artavazd Khachikian)
Subject: CLINTON ON ARMENIAN GENOCIDE
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 92 23:14:38 GMT

Clinton Statement on Armenia

Arkansas Governor Bill Clinton, Democratic candidate for presidency of the
United States of America, released the following statement on Thursday
regarding his position on Armenia and the Nagorno-Karabakh crisis.

" After the demise of the Soviet Union, Armenia [was one of the first states
to embrace these principles], and it has emerged as a key state in the
region.  I hope the Armenian government will continue on the path to a
free, multiparty political system with constitutional protection for the
economic and political freedoms of a democratic society. If elected, I look
forward to working closely with the Armenian people as they rebuild their
proud nation.

The Genocide of 1915, years of communist dictatorship, and the devastating
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
earthquake of 1988 have caused great suffering in Armenia during this
century. But the Armenian people have braved these hardships heroically,
and they have emerged with their dignity as a free nation. The more than
one million Armenians living in America have brought with them a culture
rich in history that has benefitted our country ".
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: viznyuk@physics.ucla.edu (Sergei Viznyuk)
Subject: Re: "democratic" Estonia
Organization: UCLA Department of Physics
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 92 18:06:24 GMT

In article <1992Aug25.154740.27554@linus.mitre.org> ptrei@bistromath.mitre.org (Peter Trei) writes:
>In article <01GNYUEVSZCK8ZDW2C@MPS.OHIO-STATE.EDU> "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.iupui.edu> writes:
>
>>  When you are living in a democratic country, like e.g. US,
>>nobody would deny you a citizenship just because you cannot
>>speak English. This is a first. The second thing is that
>
>     Sorry, but this is simply incorrect. Part of the naturalization
>process in the US is a test of English proficency. It's not a
>particularly difficult test; it's on the level of being able to hold a
>simple conversation, or read and understand a newspaper article.
>Without English, you can remain a resident alien, but you *cannot*
>receive citizenship.

  Sorry, but what you wrote is incorrect, while I stand
for what I wrote above. Without English, and even if you
are completely mute and deaf, you would get US citizenship
automatically, if you are born in US. That's true about
any real democracy, and apparently is not true about
new-style "democracy" as that of Estonia.

>
> Nationalism is not a dirty word.

  Ah, that's something new. What about Nazism ?

>
>>The discrimination on the basis of
>>language is not far from the discrimination on the
>>basis of form of sculp, or length of nose.
>
>     People cannot change the shape of their face short of surgery,
             ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>but everyone has the potential to learn a new language.

  What if there was such a possibility ? Would
you consider it OK, if Estonian goverment demanded
all non-Estonians to change their faces if they wish to remain
in Estonia ?
S.V.
>


Xref: sparky talk.politics.soviet:7283 soc.culture.greek:7971 soc.culture.turkish:9313
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.turkish,news.admin.misc
Subject: New record?
Keywords: Hasan B. Mutlu
Date: 23 Aug 92 19:17:40 GMT
Followup-To: alt.fan.hasan.b.mutlu
Organization: Enea Data AB

I usually refrain from commenting Mutlu, however this time it is
almost impossible to resist. When I left my terminal for a jogging
round I had no unread messages in talk.politics.soviet. When I
come back an hour later I had 81. When I entered the group my kill
file,

   /soc.culture.greek/h:j
   /Hasan B. Mutlu/h:j
   /hasan.b.mutlu/h:j

sweeped all but three messages. 78 articles in one day! In fairness
it should be added that I think the first entry killed all the 78,
so of course it could been someone else who have gone bezerk, but
it's not my main theory.

Folks, maybe we should talk to Bandy and ask him to write Mutlu-
cancellor deamon. :-)

-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
Life is wonderful when the wonderlife is full
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: da26@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Deniz  Akkus)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Hassan Bubba Mutlu and Turkish Genocide of Armenians
Date: 27 Aug 92 14:26:46 GMT
Reply-To: da26@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Deniz  Akkus)
Organization: Columbia University

In article <EDVAX.92Aug27091047@pyrite.usenet> edvax@pyrite.SOM.CWRU.edu (Weyland Yutani Ltd) writes:
>
>this century? Didn't Turkey colaborate with the Germans in both World
>Wars?  Don't quote me your fabricated references.

Turkey did not participate in WWII. 

I understand that Hasan B. Mutlu is causing agitation.  I understand
that he is causing a lot of anger, but although a kill file nicely
takes care of him, it does nothing against the equally offensive
responses people post.  In fact, I haven't had to deal with Hasan B.
Mutlu's postings directly since I have put him in my kill file.  On
the other hand, I have read far more of his postings second hand from
posts such as yours.   

You are angry at Hasan B. Mutlu.  You have the right to ask him to
stop posting to your newsgroup.  You do not have the right to
generalize and direct your anger to all Turks.  


>			Nuke Turks and Kurds into the fucking stone age
>			wherever you find them and in whatever circumstances
>			you find them.  Turkish children also should be
>			turned into gamma rays as they form a danger to
>			Humanity.
>					(In response to Hasan B. Mutlu 1992)
>

Does this somehow put you in a higher plane of existence than Hasan B.
Mutlu?

regards,
Deniz Akkus da26@cunixb.columbia.edu
Xref: sparky talk.politics.soviet:7651 soc.culture.soviet:7051
From: vlad@erg.sri.com (vlad)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Shafarevich and National Academy
Date: 3 Sep 92 22:28:28 GMT
Organization: SRI International, Menlo Park, CA

In article <1992Sep3.080520.15047@cco.caltech.edu> patricia@cco.caltech.edu (Patricia M. Schwarz) writes:
>About this Shafarevich person: I don't know anything about him, or what
>he has said or written,

Well, if you intend to write from the point of "political correctness", you
don't need to know anything. It is not the truth but the feeling that
counts. ;-)


> but I wonder how many of the Academy members would
>be so concerned if he were guilty of sexism or hating black people or
>Moslems or Armenians or etc.etc.

Just as many.

>Antisemitism is bad, for sure, but so are the other things. Is the
>National Academy so purely humanistic that they can point the finger
>at any one crime?
>And how many non-white-male members does this academy have?

Indeed, there hardly any Blacks or Mexican-Americans in the Russian
Academy. I wonder why... :-) 

>Hatred is terrible. The Holocaust puts antisemitism into a direct
>context of terror.
>
>
>But how many blacks were lynched in the name of racism?

None. Not a single Black was lynched anywhere in Russia.

>And about women - I grew up with horrible violence committed against
>me, just because of my gender.

Are you Russian? If not, what does it all have to do with Russian politics? 

>If we think a scientific professional organization should be deeply
>concerned with morality, then I say - lets open up EVERY ONE of them
>for inspection. 

Well, the idea of expelling Shafarevich seems outrageous to me. However,
your suggestion of doing a systematic witchhunt scares me to death. 

>Have any of them made racist comments or sexually
>harassed their students or coworkers? Have they ever discriminated
>against anyone in appointments or evaluations? 

>There's a faint odor of hypocrisy here, an odor of "us against them"
>rather than sincere humanistic concern.
>-patricia@cco.caltech.edu

Vlad

Employer disagrees
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet
From: oleg@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky)
Subject: Re: "democratic" Estonia
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1992 21:02:51 GMT
News-Software: IBM OS/2 PM RN (NR/2) v0.11 by O. Vishnepolsky and R. Rogers
Reply-To: oleg@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky)
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

In  <1992Sep2.200815.2209@morgan.ucs.mun.ca>  hclase@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Howard Clase) writes:
> In article <1992Sep2.192423.28004@cco.caltech.edu> patricia@cco.caltech.edu (Patricia M. Schwarz) writes:
> >
> >but really it's a problem without a stable solution. The best thing is to learn
> >
> >to forgive each other for the past and make a new future.
>
>         Wasn't there a bloke some 2000 years ago who started a religion along
> these lines.   Perhaps it should be revived.
>
>         Howard Clase

Very unfortunately, Dead Sea Scrolls (Svitki Myertvogo Morya) have made a dent
into that religion beyond repair. The idea of forgiveness is great, though.

Oleg
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti)
Subject: Re: "democratic" Estonia
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 06:20:32 GMT

muh@physics.Berkeley.EDU (Yury M. Mukharsky) writes:
: In article <1992Aug27.195038.6568@linus.mitre.org> ptrei@bistromath.mitre.org (Peter Trei) writes:
: >
: >     3.The puppet occupation governments set up by the Soviets were
: >therefore also illegal.
: 
: Sorry, do not tell that to Finns :). Their acting goverment
: were set in 1918 by German occupants. Those occupants had collaborators,
: of course. I do not remember any borderline between 1918 goverment
: and today's goverement, which is just fine with me. My point is that
: even puppet goverment may evolve to something decent. In fact, there
: were gradual transition from Suprem Soviet of Estonin Republic to
: today's goverment, too. After all independence were proclaimed by
: that puppet goverement. 
: 
Dear Yuri,
You are not aware very well about Finland's history or you are 
telling that version explained during Soviet time at Soviet Schools.
Finland declared herself, the White Army and its commander general
Mannerheim (who was educated in StPb) and provisional parlament,
independent. The German unit was helping Finnish White Army led
by Mannerheim to conquer Helsinki from the Reds. After that the
German Army unit went home. Germany did not set governement for
Finland.  In finland the course of history went the other way
than in Russia, here the White Army won the battle and Finland
did not become Red even the Reds of Russia tried to help our
own Reds.



: General point is that Russian, living today in Estonia are not guilty
: in anything. Children are not responsible for the parents sins.
: They will learn Estonian eventually, no doubt, like Swiss learning
: all languages of thier country. Stop thinking about them as different
: people. I think Swiss is good example. Who live there? Germans,
: French, Italians? No, citizens of Switzeland. Each speaking
: their own language, and each fierce patriots of ? Swtzeland, of course.
: 
: Yury.
: 
We can take other examples too. Algeria v. France 1960's, Tibet v. China today.
You are again spreading disinformation!!! The german swiss, french swiss
and italian swiss have been living for centuries in Swizerland.
They have not come as immigrants to Switzerland. An immigrant has
extremly difficult to get Swiss citizenship, the Estonian laws
are very liberal to that of Switzerland.
The russians of Estonia are mostly come similar way if we compare the
French went to Algeria, as administrators, army fficers and their
families, army retirees, into industry set up by Soviet in order
to change the character of the country's population etc.
: 
Dear Yuri, you mixing very badly Switzerland and Estonian case.
Is it a common belief among the russians that the germans, french
and italians have come to Switzerland as occupants? Knowing a bit
how people were educated in Soviet schools it would not suprise me
it they really believed so.

Jarmo Ryyti
From: muh@physics.Berkeley.EDU (Yury M. Mukharsky)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: "democratic" Estonia
Date: 27 Aug 1992 03:43:10 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics.berkeley.edu


In article <1992Aug26.211033.23005@linus.mitre.org> ptrei@bistromath.mitre.org (Peter Trei) writes:
>government" is the US government. Doesn't mean I can't discuss
>Estonia's or Russia's.
>
>- the Soviets did not have as much time to f*ck up the country and the
>people as they did at home in Russia. 

Of course you can, but could you kindly restrain from statements like
above. F*cking statements, indeed. 

Do not try to convince people that Soviet and Russian is same. It is not.
I doubt very very much that amount of "Soviets" among different nations
were so much different. After some initial kicking, which happens to
Russia in 1917 and to Estonia in 1940, locals can screw up their country
without any intervention. Did Estonia made a huge progress during past
couple years. It shold be much easier for small country to get out of
economic trouble, espessially considering that "Soviets", both local
and All-Uninon really had less time to screw it. 

>
>     Placing barriers against "economic migrants" (such as citizen's of
>Russia who want to move to Estonia for the higher standard of living)

We are not talking about moving of citizens, too, you missed something,
we are talking about expelling them, aren't we?

>
>      The Russians in Estonia did not come with the permission of the

If you mean Soviets, neither they came with the permission of Russian
people, but in the wake of bullet and sable.

>Estonian people, but in the wake of the bullet and the tank.  They set
>up an exploitive colonial administration, maintained by violence and
>intimidation, and proceeded to run down the country just as they did
>at home.

When I read passages like this I reaaly becoming Russian nationalist
(which, me beeing Ukrainian, is not the case in fundamental state).
When you call some nation occupants, colonists and so on, you really 
risking that they really will became ones. What do you think will 
happen then?

>
>      Now they expect to be treated like invited guests.

They are guests no more. Why don't you clean this land from your
presense in favor of Indians? You have home, go their, who invited you?

Yury
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: treacherous Russians (Re: "democratic" Estoni
From: verbit@zariski.harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky)
Date: 2 Sep 92 04:44:36 EDT
Organization: Sozialistische Patienten Kollektiv

In article <2483@cronos.metaphor.com> covdy@shemesh.metaphor.com (Ivan Covdy) writes:
>in article <1992Sep1.105420.26385@nntp.hut.fi>, f33012l@puukko.hut.fi (Janne Kivel{) says:
>[....]

>> The situation can be dangerous only if the Baltic states really start to deport
>> people or if there's a coup in Russia.

>> Janne Kivela"

>The situation is dangerous ALREADY.
>Don't Baltic goverments realize that by discriminating minorities
>they go in direction of the Yugoslavian variant?

	If they don't, this is a clinical case.

>Or do the do it intentionally, in order to distract attention from
>their inability to solve the economic problems?

	Yeah

>But the Russian goverment is unable to solve their economic problems either,
>so they need a scapegoat, too. In fact, some Russians are just waiting for
>a convinient case to start shooting.

	Sure

>Shit! I think, L.I.Breznev was, indeed, a great political figure!
>Everything was so quiet and peaceful in his times. And they even
>had the "friendship of peoples"...

	Exactly my words. 

	Misha.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.europe
From: arto@leland.Stanford.EDU (Artavazd Khachikian)
Subject: NEW YORK TIMES EDITORIAL (CONTINUED)
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 92 05:18:56 GMT

The present article is copied word for word from a New York Times
editorial dated from April 22, 1990, E-26, buttom column. Part 3.

	"Accidents of World War I brought on the Armenian catastrophe.
In 1915, Russia turned back an Ottoman invasion of Transcaucasia and
czarist troops soon entered northeastern Turkey. Long-established Armenian 
communities were located on both sides of the eastern front. Fearing that 
Christian Armenians would rise in aid of Russia, Ottoman leaders ordered their
mass deportation.

!>	Even granting a military justification, the order was carried out
!>ruthlessly. This is borne out by press reports, diplomatic dispatches and
!>accounts of historians, including Arnold Toynbee, who invoked the word 
!>"genocide". It is graphically documented in eyewitness descriptions by
!>Leslie Davis, the U.S. Consul in Harput, who visited devastated villages.

!>	To Mr. Davis, whose forgotten reports are reprinted in full in a 
!>recent book, "The Slaughterhouse Province", there was no doubt what was 
!>happenning: it wasn't expulsion, but "wholesale massacre".

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: oleg@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky)
Subject: Re: "democratic" Estonia
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 19:08:49 GMT
News-Software: IBM OS/2 PM RN (NR/2) v0.037 by O. Vishnepolsky and R. Rogers
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Another thought on the subject - while the current citizenship policies
of the Baltic states are clearly discriminative, we have yet to see a
single native of Estonian (or Latvian or Lithuanian) ethnicity to
admit so. Peoples of truly democratic countries tend to have different
opinions on most of the sensitive subjects. We know what it means for everyone
to have the same opionion, we have seen it in Nazi Germany and in the
Communist regimes. Come on, come ou straight and say you disagree
and ashamed of your government policies - prove that your countries
are democratic.

Oleg Vishnepolsky
From: Danny_Prousline@lbl.gov (D. Prousline)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Coup Book and Video List
Date: 26 Aug 92 16:12:00 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: LBL
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.120.21

In article <17ejjsINN20i@agate.berkeley.edu>, muh@physics.Berkeley.EDU (Yury M. Mukharsky) writes:
>deleted<
> Just because natives suspects everyone. 

I know my post was emotional, not well argumented etc.
BUT: I do believe that it is pointless to indulge in comparative studies of 
people who actively worked for the Party and the State.
I agree on why maybe Posner is the way he is.
Another similar example is Arbatov - Institute of USA & Canada, Dir.
He grew up in the USSR, Jewish, intelligent Q total liar.
Worked for everybody in power, BTW worked in the high echelones of power of Anti-
semitic regime. How excusable and justified by _as he says_ good things he did?
I donUt think we should have trials like Germany or Bulgaria, but just remembering
who is who is important.
Ne mogu postupitsa principami, as Nina said.

-DP
my opinions
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet
From: viznyuk@physics.ucla.edu (Sergei Viznyuk)
Subject: Re: Shafarevich and National Academy
Organization: UCLA Department of Physics
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 92 21:05:10 GMT

  Vnoshu predlozhenie:   otorvat' Shavarevichu yaitsa.
Serega
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet
From: hclase@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Howard Clase)
Subject: Re: "democratic" Estonia
Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 20:08:15 GMT

In article <1992Sep2.192423.28004@cco.caltech.edu> patricia@cco.caltech.edu (Patricia M. Schwarz) writes:
>
>but really it's a problem without a stable solution. The best thing is to learn
>
>to forgive each other for the past and make a new future.

	Wasn't there a bloke some 2000 years ago who started a religion along
these lines.   Perhaps it should be revived.

	Howard Clase


Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: arto@leland.Stanford.EDU (Artavazd Khachikian)
Subject: NEW YORK TIMES EDITORIAL ON ARMENIAN GENOCIDE
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 92 03:34:07 GMT

	COMMENT: THE PRESENT ARTICLE IS COPIED WORD FOR WORD FROM 
"THE NEW YORK TIMES" EDITORIAL, PUBLISHED ON THE 22 OF ARPIL, 1990 
SECTION E,  PAGE 26, BUTTOM COLUMN.

	THE VIEWS OF THE NEW YORK TIMES DO NOT COINCIDE WITH THOSE
OF THE COPIER IN MANY CASES.


		A R M E N I A    R E M E M B E R E D.

			(Part 2, par. 3-4).
		  

	"Nevertheless, something abdominable occurred in Anatolia.
An Armenian community of a million or more was reduced to negligible
numbers. Turkish authorities concede that at least 600.000 Armenians
perished in communal violence or in a forced exodus. Others fled Turkey,
bearing memories that still sear a stateless people.

	What is lacking in the Turkish response is even a hint of generous
contrition for excesses that resulted in so many deaths. Instead, by pouncing
on disputed particulars, official Turkish handbooks seem to suggest the
Armenian case is mostly a fabrication. This is not the path to reconciliation".