Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Predestination Mr. Adams
From: adams@spss.com (Steve Adams)
Date: 29 Jul 92 20:04:29 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: SPSS Inc.


Let's do theology!

Steve.Gross@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Steve Gross) writes:

> adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes :    in response to what I wrote,
>>Steve Gross) writes:

>>>I disagree with the statement that you made to gross@rtp... .  The bible
>>>does indeed say in many places that only the elect will become saved,
>>>because God has foreordained it.  Other than that, many inferences to the
>>>doctrince of predestination exist.
>>Hmm.  The doctrine of predestination causes quite a few questions to come
>>up.  If man has no free-will, then what's the point?  God created a set of
>>puppets to entertain him?  Are you truly saying that we have no choice in
>>the matter.  If, as I suspect, you are saying this, may I ask if you happen
>>to be a 5-point Calvinist?
>>

>----I do beleive what Calvin says yes.   I would consider myself more of a
>reformed  Calvinist though.  Hard to explain in a short time.
>Free will is not the issue here Mr. Adams.  Everyone has a free will
>indeed, but that is not important when it comes to salvation.  I agree
>with you that Salvation is a free gift, but I disagree with you that we
>have the ability to "choose" God.  If we are born into sin, i.e spiritual
>separation from god, the, how could we ever hope to get together again? 
"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in
us."  I John 1:8.  And how about something a bit stronger:

[Romans 3, NIV]

   "(21)But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made
    known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.  (22)This
    righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all
    who believe.  There is no difference, (23)for all have sinned and
    fall short of the glory of God, (24)and are justified freely by His
    grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.  (25)God
    presented Him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in His blood.
    He did this to demonstrate His justice, because in His forbearance he
    had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished - (26)He did it to
    demonstrate His justice at the present time, so as to be just and the
    one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus."

Nothing at all there about predestination.  Simply put, salvation by grace,
justified by faith.  You can't deny that's what Paul says here.

>The bible says that we are wicked, and that if left to our own ways, we
>would NEVER choose God.  We are not puppets, as we have a free will.  We
>are, however, not able to choose God.  Free will never enters into the
>Salvation equation.
Not true at all.  We freely chose to follow Christ...or chose to deny Him.

>---- As I said up there, we are given a free will, we are individuals ( I
>don't quite know what you mean by moral agents )  You nor I, however, can
>CHOOSE Christ.  The Holy Spirit is the activator in the equation.  He
>gives us the ammount of faith it takes to beleive.  Before that, we never
>had it, and never even wanted it.  He gives that faith in accordance with
>the will of God.  We both know that the Holy Spirit only does what the
>will of God is.  If everyone could be saved, then why hasn't the Holy
>Spirit done it?  The bible says that God would that every man were saved.
>(and women too I'm sure).
If God would that every man be saved, why would he predestine some to
Hell???  This makes no sense!  If all can be saved, then there must clearly
be something we can 'do', and that 'thing' is beleive in Jesus Christ as
Lord and Saviour.

>>if I confess Jesus is Lord and confess my sins, God who is merciful and
>>just will forgive my sins and cleanse me from my unrighteosness.
>>(paraphrase by me).

>---- This is correct, but only when the Holy Spirit (God) initiates it. 
NO.  Not at all.  I believe or I don't believe of my own volition.  God can
act on me, but I can deny Him and refuse His will.

>He initiats it because it is his will that (whomever) becomes saved.  It
>makes no sense to think that God would pick some and not others if he is
>Just.  He picks and chooses, because he is sovereign, and knows in advance
>who will and who won't be saved.
You've just contradicted yourself.  If God is just, why would he chose some
and condemn others???


>>Ah, but see, predestination is not a universal Christian idea.  Good,
>>honest Christians disagree.  I submit to you that YOU might be the one who
>>has missed to meaning of the text.  Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't believe 
>>you have received some dispensation from God which says that your
>>interpretation is correct, and the only one.

>----Certainly not.  You always accuse me of that though.  I don't think I
>ever have said it.  Many good christians disagree because they like you
>want to have something to do with the salvation process, when truth is
>they don't.  We have a lot of pride saying that we can choose to believe
>in Christ.  Humanity ALWAYS wants to be responsible.  Why I don't know. 
>Why do we always have to have something to do with the process.  why can't
>wejust accept it as God's love for us, and rejoice in that??

Let me draw your attention to Iraneus, Bishop of Lyon during the 2nd
century.  Iraneus taught, as did others in His time, that ALL souls would
eventually be saved.  Life was a growth process.  Iraneaus was NOT a
heretic.  He was one of the great fathers of the church.  He lost, in the
long run, a theological arguement with what eventually became the
Augustinain school.  A number of modern Christian theologians, including
John Hick, agree with him...

I'd like to suggest you take a course in theodicy...it'll open your eys.
There are numerous acceptable, valid positions among Christian theologians.
Are they right or wrong?  If too honest, intelligent, and pious people look
at Scripture and come up with a different meaning, then what?  It's just
not as cut and dried as you seem to think.

 -Steve
--
 The opinions expressed above are those of the author and not SPSS, Inc.
                        -------------------
     adams@spss.com                           Phone: (312) 329-3522
     Steve Adams                              Fax:   (312) 329-3558
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