HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: richk@tera.com (Richard Korry)
Subject: Re: Cows at 12,000 Feet.
Organization: Tera Computer Corporation, Seattle, WA
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 20:10:47 GMT

In article <18ibk0INNdl1@agate.berkeley.edu> bwood@diva.Berkeley.EDU (Blake Philip Wood) writes:
>I expressed my surprise to a backcountry ranger that cattle grazing
>was allowed in a wilderness area.  She gave me the impression
>that this was a somewhat unique situation.  I suspect the grazing rights
>were grandfathered in when the Pecos Wilderness Area was established.
>Anyone know for sure?

I just spent the weekend in the Pasayten Wilderness area in eastern Washington.
At the trailhead was a nice poster with a cow and sheep sitting by a campfire
with a few paragraphs. The first said that the 1964 Wilderness Act specifically
states that grazing of stock could continue in a Wilderness Area. I do not
know if this means only at those levels (same number of head, etc.) or if
rights can be bought or sold. The second paragraph stated that the grazing
maintained plant vigor and helped keep wildflowers and meadows healthy.
I would like to see some research showing this to be true since all of my
encounters with stock in Wilderness areas has lead me to believe the
opposite. The trail from Andrews Creek trailhead to Meadow Lake was a wide and
dust filled (like 1 to 2 inches of powdered dirt) trough with loose rocks.
It was one of the most miserable hikes I've ever been on in the 20 odd years
I've been hiking. If that was my first hiking trip it would also be my last.
The area around Meadow Lake had new cow pies, old cow pies, cow pies on the
ground, on the timber, on the rocks. The swampy areas surrounding the lake
was a looked like the Kansas City stock yards. Trails braided their way up
to high meadows since cows don't know they are supposed to "stay on the trail".
They don't know that they should bury their waste and pack out their T.P.
I felt like telling me to practice "low impact" camping was like telling 
someone to pick up their cigarette butt after the LA riots. And considering
that the leases for grazing on Nat. Forest land are sold below market value,
its my tax dollars at work here. Gawd, it was so depressing.

I think that "Cattle Free by 93" might be too much to ask, but at least the
owners of these cattle should be required to pay the going rate for grazing.
Any maybe, just maybe, the Forest Service might consider keeping some areas
grazing free to allow people to walk and look up at the trees without worrying
about what they just stepped in. 

	richard
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Backpack recommendations and comments
From: cheu@saturn.its.uci.edu (Kelvin Cheu)
Date: 10 Sep 92 18:22:40 GMT
Reply-To: cheu@saturn.its.uci.edu (Kelvin Cheu)
Organization: University of California, Irvine


Does anybody has experience with REI external frame pack
(REI Sierra Crest and Wonderland), and Kelty Tioga R who
can share their experience with me ?

Kelvin
From: hens@snipe.cray.com (Tom Stephens)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: No dogs in Natl Parks
Date: 10 Sep 92 17:38:33 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.


In article <2857@monarch.array.com>, news@array.com (news) writes:
> hens@snipe.cray.com (Tom Stephens) writes:
> : 
> : 
> : > The water topic brings up another question.  How do you stop a dog from 
> : > drinking giardia infested water?  Have any of you dog owners that have 
> : > brought a dog into the backcountry had the dog get giardia?
> : > 
> : No, and I can't believe it ever would.  I have seen my dog drink out of every body of water imagineable, and he has never gotten sick.  I suppose it is possible for a dog to get giardia, but I've never heard of it.  
> 
> I have a friend at work whose dog got giardia from drinking from 
> a stream.  They had to take her to the vet and deliver stool 
> samples for about a week.  She recovered, but it is possible.
> 
> 
> 
> Merf
How did the person know the dog was sick?  How did the vet treat it?  
--
---------------------------------
Tom Stephens
Corporate Computing and Networks, Chippewa Falls, WI
Cray Research Inc.  hens@cray.com
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: JB <jbl@mesaadm.cre.nt.com>
Subject: Re: Cows at 12,000 Feet.
Organization: NT/BNR
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1b3
     <laq994INNe1t@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> <1992Sep8.201047.24419@tera.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1992 12:24:31 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.031056.7565@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> Robert B.
Whitehurst, rbw3q@helga9.acc.Virginia.EDU writes:
>>I think that "Cattle Free by 93" might be too much to ask, but at least
the
>>owners of these cattle should be required to pay the going rate for
grazing.
>>Any maybe, just maybe, the Forest Service might consider keeping some
areas
>>grazing free to allow people to walk and look up at the trees without
worrying
>>about what they just stepped in. 
>>
>>	richard
>
>	Much as I love the Great Western Spaces, I gotta admit,
>moo-less trails are one nice feature here in the east (not to dismiss
>some other problems...).

I was reading and thanking the powers that be that there are no cows in
the eastern parks (that I have been exposed to), but I think I might
prefer cows to the overlap of wilderness and game lands.  We were
surprised in our campsite one morning by a fellow who was in a tree stand
approx 20 yards from our camp.  He walked over for coffee, I guess, and
mentioned casually that he had been there for days, that he had seen
several deer, but decided not to shoot them as they were too close to our
tents. Bless his heart.  
I don't know how it is out west, but here it is EVERYONE'S GOD GIVEN
RIGHT  to hunt, poach, or just shoot the holy hell out of anything that
moves.  But like the grazing lands, these lands belonged to some family
back when, and their ancestors feel their rights were infringed by the
creation of wilderness. Perhaps it is a matter of perspective, but that
doesn't help when a "friendly" guy with a high powered rifle advises you
to "stay to the trail; someone just might mistake you for a deer". 
JB
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: scott@phylo.life.uiuc.edu (Scott Howard)
Subject: Re: Info on Absorca Wild in MT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 15:10:42 GMT

Nice, high peaks and narrow valleys.
Ivory soap works well.
Few people.
Forest Service Trails are wildly uneven in quality, but
the scenery is wonderful.
From: tucker@shiva.edsg.hac.com (George Tucker)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Cows at 12,000 Feet.
Date: 9 Sep 92 19:26:45 GMT
Reply-To: tucker@shiva.UUCP (George Tucker)
Organization: Hughes Aircraft Co., El Segundo, CA

In article <1992Sep9.031056.7565@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> rbw3q@helga9.acc.Virginia.EDU (Robert B. Whitehurst) writes:
>In article <1992Sep8.201047.24419@tera.com> richk@tera.com (Richard Korry) writes:
>>Any maybe, just maybe, the Forest Service might consider keeping some areas
>>grazing free to allow people to walk and look up at the trees without worrying
>>about what they just stepped in. 
>	Much as I love the Great Western Spaces, I gotta admit,
>moo-less trails are one nice feature here in the east (not to dismiss
>some other problems...).   

It is not a common problem here in the West; burros are more common in the
desert.

Whether burros or cattle, they can be used to advantage.  One of the earliest
European explorers in Ethiopia (Burton, I think) reported that the natives
would simply cut a steak off their cow and let the animal go back to grazing.
Since they find their own forage, that's better than using dogs in the polar
regions.  And if you have to bivuoac on a cold night, you can follow the
example of Luke Skywalker.

	 George Tucker        tucker@tcville.hac.com
South Central LA - solidly Democratic - a few million.
Florida          - close race         - $7 billion.
Too many Quayludes.
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: mtvahb@nl (Aldrik Bakema)
Subject: Re: Water in Nepal/What do I do?
Organization: Rijksinstituut voor Volksgezondheid en Milieuhygiene,Bilthoven,NL
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 08:41:38 GMT

Danny James (Danny@sct.gu.edu.au) wrote:
: I have been following the conversations on water filters keenly
 and have contacted a few of the articles authors and on their advice
 Hi, I have been to Nepal for three months, and only used iodine.
 Never got sick while on the trail, and always got sick in Kathmandu and
 Pokhara, eating and drinking what was served there.
 As for iodine treatment, we did not use the ready-made tablets, but used
 a small (30 milliliter) glass jar, added 4 grams of iodine cristals
 (bought them at the medicine counter of a drugstore) and added 20 milli-
 liters of the solution to each liter of water. After that we filled up
 the little glass jar again etc. etc.
 Works great, in 20 milliliter saturated iodine solution there is just
 enough iodine for a liter. Tablets are a bit easier, but for us the main advantage was that for three months water supply for two peaople we only needed 
 our small precious little container.
 Have a nice trip!

 Aldrik Bakema
 mtvahb@rivm.nl

 PS: got this method from an article several years ago. As I remember the
 method was developed by the American army. Does anyone know about this?


: am posting this
: 
: It is likely that I will be going to Nepal later this year
: I have read all I can on water precautions, however i am unsure of
: what looks good and what is pratical.
: 
: My planned method of attack is as follows
: 
: get water (it is visually clean so i won't filter at this stage)
: boil water
: add iodine
: filter water
: 
: I am mainly considering filtering the water as a means on getting 
: rid of the iodine taste as I am told by friends that it becomes
: unpleasant esp. for extended periods of time
: 
: Possible questions
: 
: 1) Has anyone been to nepal and what did they do and were they sick?
: 2) Do water filters remove the iodine (activated charcoal gets rid of most
:    things, we use it in the lab a lot)
: 3) anything else you can think of that I should know
: 
: PS because of my limited experience I don't have much knowledge of these things
:   so be verbose if you can
: 
: many thanks 
: 
: Danny
: 
: 
: -- 
: Danny James                        |
: Division of Science and Technology | Email:
: Griffith University, Nathan 4111   | Danny@tomahawk.me.gu.edu.au
: Brisbane Australia                 |
From: tkay@rotten.com (Tim Kay)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Request 4 info on survival type cousres
Date: 15 Sep 92 15:26:08 GMT
Reply-To: tkay@rotten.com
Organization: Sun Microsystems
NNTP-Posting-Host: 140.239.2.33



Hello,

	I'm interested in camping in remote areas & year round camping.

	I would like to learn more about equipment, skills and knowledge
	etc..  Any information on courses in the New England area, and
	recommendations of books on the subject would be appreciated.

Tim Kay, tkay@centerline.com
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: ddavidso@nyx.cs.du.edu (Durwood Davidson)
Subject: Re: Cows at 12,000 Feet.
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 92 14:49:00 GMT

In article <1992Sep5.205343.26094@midway.uchicago.edu> bjr@oddjob.uchicago.edu (Bernie Rauscher) writes:
>Have others run into this little problem where we humans are asked to
>leave no trace, yet the agency that makes this request leases the land
>for pasture ... with I suspect disasterous consequences that it would take
>a small village of humans to duplicate?
>
   Hey man.  Cows are natural.  Besides, someone's making money on them.
That's much more important than some tree hugger enjoying themself.  
Remember,  Americans have a god given right to park their cars and their
cows wherever they want.

- Woody

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Re: Skiing Crater Lake
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 92 22:55:48 GMT

1) It's a road.
2) Skins are useless extra weight.
3) The lighter the skis the better.
4) Watch out the weather comes in fast and dangerous.  I attempted three
times before actually completing it (1st time bad weather, forbidden to
ski anywhere except to Sun Notch (avalanche hazard can be exceptionally high),
2nd time bad weather, weak partner, turned around after 4 miles,
third time also skipped out because of fatigue (too much work on Oregon
coast on that trip, sunny weather), fourth time, did it over an X-mas in
two days: official snow depth [drought year] was 5 inches.  The Service
asked us for a report on the far side of the Lake (occasional dry asphalt),
but some nice snow.  Some good sized avalanche tracks (trip 1 had one with
debris shoot clear across the lake, 5+ miles).
Next time I want to try it on one spring day.  It's most popularly done
during X-mas/New Years and during "Spring Break."

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Acting Associate Editor, Software and Publication Reviews
  Scientific Programming
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: ahill@boi.hp.com (Andy Hill)
Subject: Re: Floating through a forest fire
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 17:42:50 GMT
Reply-To: ahill@boi.hp.com
Organization: LaserJets by Bill & Dave
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3

carnes@ico.isc.com (Steve Carnes) writes:
> Interesting story, Ilana.  However, the question remains, did you see
> any burned cows?
>
She may not've seen any along the Salmon, but, closer to Boise the Foothills
fire (approx. 280 kiloacres before extinguished) toasted quite a few
cows on both private and BLM land.  My appetite sort've left me after they
showed a few of them on the 6 o'clock news...
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: kehoe@netcom.com (Thomas David Kehoe)
Subject: Re: kentucky
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 92 18:06:57 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

The Red River canyon is nice, right on the eastern border
with Virginia.  There's arches and a wilderness area.
The road goes through a little railroad tunnel.  On the
other hand, it's all second growth, brush and small trees.
It's nothing special compared to the western U.S., but
for the east it's nice.
-- 
"Why my thoughts are my own, when they are in, but when they are out
they are another's." - Susannah Martin, hanged for witchcraft, 1692.
Thomas David Kehoe          kehoe@netcom.com         (408) 354-5926
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: rbw3q@helga9.acc.Virginia.EDU (Robert B. Whitehurst)
Subject: Re: Cows at 12,000 Feet.
Organization: University of Virginia
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 14:44:22 GMT

In article <14534@auspex-gw.auspex.com> johnf@Auspex.COM (John Fereira) writes:
>In article <10335@vice.ICO.TEK.COM> hall@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Hal F Lillywhite) writes:
>>
>>Well, I have a solution to the problem of cows in wilderness.  Just
>>pursuade the local fish and game people to open a special 2-deer
>>hunting season in the area you want to clear of cows (that is, allow
>>each hunter to get 2 deer in this area).  This will
>>attract a *lot* of hunters.  Furthermore it will attract a lot of
>>real idiots to hunt the area.  I guarantee there will be fewer cows
>>after those guys get through.  
> 
>Unfortunately there might also be fewer hunters.
>
	This is a problem?? :-) It's not like they're an endangered
species!



-- 

Brad Whitehurst    |   Aerospace Research Lab
rbw3q@Virginia.EDU |   We like it hot...and fast.
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: tomg@hpcvusc (Thomas J. Gilg)
Subject: Re: MSR filter (was: Water treatment article from Am J Pub)
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 21:17:58 GMT

> So, isn't anyone else annoyed by the fact that the MSR squeaks like a
> tortured mouse (or is that only a part of the filter I used).

Assuming the MSR-Waterworks model:

The food-grade silicon grease provided in the maintence kit should take
care of the squeaks.

> Finally, it seems that it's very easy to over-pump (cavitation, bubbles and
> all that sort of wasted effort).

Grease again.  Also, after several days in Alaska getting used to the pump,
I could work efficiently without bubbles.   Turning it upsidedown for
one pump allows the bubble to escape.

I had several friends recommend the MSR-Waterworks after they used others.
After using it myself, my only negative comment is how quickly the metal
screen filter clogs.   I suppose that means it's doing its job, but it's
a little tough to rejuvenate after several hand rinsings.

Thomas Gilg
tomg@cv.hp.com
From: jac@ds8.scri.fsu.edu (Jim Carr)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Cows at 12,000 Feet.
Date: 10 Sep 92 18:17:34 GMT
Reply-To: jac@ds8.scri.fsu.edu (Jim Carr)
Organization: SCRI, Florida State University

In article <JPr-=K=@engin.umich.edu> colinj@engin.umich.edu (Colin Johnson) writes:
>
>	One of the recent issues of _Backpacker_ magazine just did a big
>spread on grazing on public lands. They had some interesting things to say
>about just how much public money goes to pay for this grazing.   

Aren't there really two separate issues, grazing on public land and 
grazing in a Wilderness area?  Since most of the West is federally 
owned, it must be hard to make a distinction between some square 
miles of high plain of no interest to hikers and campers and some 
other square miles that are but are not designated any differently 
as far as "kind" of federal land.  (Now there is the real issue of 
leasing land at a loss alluded to above, but that is not the real 
problem discussed here.)  It is hard for me to complain when I use 
ski areas, roads, or camps developed on National Forest land.... 

I can tell you that we were told that the cattle grazing in the 
area as one enters the Maroon/Snowmass Wilderness are there in 
summers as part of the agreement whereby the land was acquired by 
the government.  Seems like a good tradeoff, because other controls 
on the land use and its development (we are talking Aspen here!) 
must far outweigh the continuing use for grazing.  
 
--
J. A. Carr                                    |  "The New Frontier of which I  
jac@gw.scri.fsu.edu                           |  speak is not a set of promises
Florida State University  B-186               |  -- it is a set of challenges."
Supercomputer Computations Research Institute |   John F. Kennedy (15 July 60)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Re: Eating through a forest fire
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 92 00:44:01 GMT

In article <14593@auspex-gw.auspex.com> johnf@Auspex.COM
(John Fereira) writes:
I wrote:
Stern's fire.
>|Cows?  Hell (s Canyon) terrestial animal flesh?
>|Well, what about a nice, fresh, finely poached salmon?
>
>Poaching salmon is illegal.  You should get a license if you want
>to catch salmon. :-)

Yes I know.
180F, just before boiling, a fine temperature, at 10 minutes a pound.
The wording was deliberate. 8^) I loved the ambiguity.

>|Thin fillets, flakey, orange meat which melts in your mouth...
>|Baked potato from the ground....
> 
>You're starting to make me hungry.

Yes I know.  That was deliberate, too.
...Nice chopped wild green onions from the river bank (unburned areas)
as a garnish sprinkled over a light butter sauce.

Recipe removed.

>Anyone drooling yet?

Sorry.  Just had Vulva da Vita (or however you spell it; crepes in Davis
this evening, sorry, I'm stuffed) all kinds of chopped up seafood:
shrimp, scallops, octopus, etc. mixed with lime juice and salsa.
Heavenly, but could have used just a tad more lime.

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Acting Associate Editor, Software and Publication Reviews
  Scientific Programming
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya

 "Lobster Thermodor in a light creme sauce and spam...." -- MP
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: chris@engineer.mrg.uswest.com (Chris Fedde)
Subject: Re: Uses of high explosives in the backcountry
Organization: USWEST Marketing Resources
NntpPostingHost: engineer.mrg.uswest.com
Distribution: usa
Date: 14 Sep 92 06:04:02 GMT

In article <1992Sep13.190426.14521@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> smithrs@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (SMITH  RANDALL SCOTT) writes:
>
>You know, with all of the noise everyone has been making about cows and forest
>fires and stoves and fishing, I'm surprised and highly amused that no one has
>mentioned the obvious answer, the universal tool:  High explosives
>

There's a story that my pop told me about when he was growing up.  It
seems that he was down on the lake one day doing a little fishing with
Dupont sinkers.  When a game warden pulls his boat up and asked pop what
he though he was doing.  The warden was making a stink about how ilegal
it was to use dynamite for fishing.  So pop picks up a stick, stuffs in
a length of fuse, lights it and hands it to the warden.  After a couple
of seconds with the warden just sitting there pop said "Are you going to
talk or are you going to fish?"
 
Chris Fedde, USWEST MRG, chris@mrg.uswest.com, voice 3037842823
From: curtis@optima.UUCP (Curtis E. Dyreson)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: water purification methods
Date: 4 Sep 92 21:12:05 GMT

From article <lafd3jINNg6d@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM>, by tut@cairo.Eng.Sun.COM (Bill "Bill" Tuthill):
>> The First Need is a perfectly good tool, you just have to use it
>> intelligently.  
> 
> You are deluding yourself.  With a .4 micron filter, the First Need
> does not get every E. coli (rod-shaped, 1-2 microns long, between
> ..3 and .4 microns wide) or pseudomonas such as the one that causes
> Rocky Mountain fever (spherical, no cell membrane, between .3 and .4
> microns in diameter).

Thanks for taking my statement out of contex.  I certainly am not 
deluding myself.  The issue I addressed was one of the First Need 
clogging and ergonomics, not personal safety.  It's a personal 
judgement call as to how "pure" you want the water you drink versus 
how much money and effort you put into it.  As far as total filter
failure is concerned, I only outlined steps which made that scenario
more remote.  Filter failure could happen with any of the filters 
discussed so it is obvious that one should always carry a backup system.

Curtis Dyreson
From: fsrmh1@acad3.alaska.edu
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: binoculars sought
Date: 16 Sep 92 04:31:11 GMT
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks

In article <pnt0vbc@fido.asd.sgi.com>, airey@woof.asd.sgi.com (John Airey) writes:
> 
> In article <1992Sep11.023958.27658@news.Hawaii.Edu>, bill@gaza.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu writes:
>> 
>> 
>> Still looking for suggestions of binoculars for backpacking.
>> any recommendations?
>> 
>> thanx
>> 
>> --
>>     bill@uhunix.bitnet 
>>     bill@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu 
>>     21.19 N.LAT by 157.52 W.LONG          
>>     Fish on the Byte
> 
>    
>      My girlfriend has some L.L.Bean/Nikon Travelite III's.
> 
>      I think they are about 7 ounces. 7x20 with Nikon coated
>      lens. They worked for me on a surf trip to the Baja Peninsula.
>      I also have some Nikon Naturalist II's 7x35's. The tiny
>      ones compare well to these.
> 
>      I think they were about $90 in a recent L.L. Bean catalog.
> 


I recently tried a partners Leupold 9X25 compacts - sweet, sweet sweet - both
sides are adjustable for your eyes (diopter adj), and they have no distance 
focus knob - your eyes do the focusing.  They are great for long-time viewing 
as they are optically aligned (both sides are aligned perfectly with each 
other) whereby eliminating eye fatigue.  They cost about 250.00 and are the 
only (I believe) "Made in the USA" binoculars on the market.

Buy the best you can afford - they are a lifetime investment.  Incidently I
can't think of a better set of compact binoculars at any cheaper price!


Randy 
fsrmh1@acad3.alaska.edu