From: garvin+@cs.cmu.edu (Susan Garvin)
Subject: Re: Supreme Court Upholds Freedom of Speech
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 15:31:06 GMT

In article <1993Jan20.223345.12792@tc.fluke.COM> emery@tc.fluke.COM (John Emery) writes:
#In article <C0xG5t.5DF.1@cs.cmu.edu> garvin+@cs.cmu.edu (Susan Garvin) writes:
##This thread is clearly about abortion, so followups are set to
##talk.abortion.
##
##In article <1993Jan15.171713.22101@tc.fluke.COM# emery@tc.fluke.COM (John Emery) writes:
###In article <c8at03uec8tl00@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com> jsp@pls.amdahl.com writes:
###
##
####Ah, then both you and Rush obviously do not grasp the correct meaning
####of that word.  "Pro-choice" means being in favor of there being at
####least two choices legally available.  It certainly does not mean the
####advocating of one or the other of those choices, as you seem to believe.
###
###Then you would favor as much federal funding for crisis pregnancy clinics
###as you would for abortion clinics?  It would seem to me that in order to
###be fair, that we should make going through with an unexpected pregnancy
###as financially, emotionally, and circumstantially feasible as that of
###have an abortion.  According to your viewpoint, there should just as 
###much counseling available that would support having the child as there
###would be for aborting it.  That way, all things being equal, the woman
###would really be able to fairly choose.  Does that sound agreeable to you?
##
##It *sounds* fair if one is not aware of the reality of the
##situation.  Women's health clinics that provide abortion 
##services also provide options counseling.  This form of counseling
##allows a woman to choose the outcome that she most prefers, be
##it abortion or childbirth (and the choice between keeping the baby
##or having it adopted.)  Factual information is presented in
##these settings.
#
#If the abortion industry weren't such a lucrative business and profits
#were'nt involved, perhaps this would be a trustworthy option.  However,
#when money is involved, even the best people can be tempted to overlook
#the good of the patient.

Many clinics which provide abortion services are non-profit.

Furthermore, many of the so-called "crisis pregnancy clinics"
are affiliated with adoption services or refer to lawyers
who arrange private adoptions.  They might be tempted to
overlook the good of the women duped into entering their 
establishment in their zeal to provide babies to the market.
##So-called "crisis pregnancy clinics" (they are legally enjoined
##from calling themselves clinics in many states since they 
##generally have no medical professionals on site), on the other
##hand, actively seek to promote only one choice, childbirth.
#
#That is because these clinics are motivated by moral convictions.

Many clinics which provide abortions are operated by
people who are motivated by moral convictions.

#But my argument still stands, Susan.  On one hand you have abortion
#clinics that are favorably disposed toward giving abortions whereas
#crisis pregnancy clinics that are favorably disposed toward a woman
#carrying out her pregnancy.  My proposal is to have the crisis preg-
#nancy clinic just as accessible and just as funded so that the woman
#herself can choose without availability and finances being an issue.
#For instance the woman could then either choose a women's health clinic
#in which case she will most likely get an abortion or choose a crisis
#pregnancy clinic in which case she would most likely carry the
#pregnancy.  But the choose would be hers.

You have yet to show that abortion clinics are as biased in
their counselling as the pro-lie propaganda centers are.
You seem to disregard the notion that professional
counselors are capable doing true options counselling.

I have yet to talk to a woman who visited a fake clinic
who wasn't given gross misinformation about pregnancy and
abortion.  If the people who ran them had any intention
of telling women the truth, they would be open about their
purpose.  Most of them hide behind innocuous sounding or
even misleading names (AAA Abortion Counselling, etc.)

##There is no service that could possibly be provided by a
##"crisis pregnancy clinic" that is not already provided by
##abortion clinics.  Counselors in abortion clinics are able
##to make all the same referrals that those places do, and
##several more, besides.
#
#By taking away the crisis pregnancy clinic option, one would be
#hypocritical to the pro-choice name.

I haven't seen anyone argue that fake clinics shouldn't be allowed
to exist.  I have seen people argue against funding sources
of misinformation.  (I am doing so.)  

Susan