HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: myboy@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Lewis Murtaugh)
Subject: Re: Why freedom of information must be garenteed!!! [sic]
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston Illinois.
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 14:32:24 GMT

In article <JABBERWK.92Sep2113543@rigel.cs.pdx.edu>, Justin G Bailey writes:

>> Wake up and smell the coffee, rclarke!  'The poor conquering the rich' is 
>> nothing more than an idealistic dream that would sabotage itself within the
>> first months of its life.  Rich or poor, it's all still people, and people
>> are greedy, conniving, self-serving animals.  Social Darwinism is THE world
>> order, never mind Mother Teresa.  What happens once the ruling class, 

In article <1992Sep2.224305.7284@ac.dal.ca> Ethan Clarke replies:

>The number one difference that I can see between animals and humans is that
>humans are civialized and animals are not (no spelling flames please!).  To
>be civilalized means that you can act above what Mother Nature wants and
>change your behavior.  If we can't do that then why don't we just get rid of
>all intelectual things and go back to hunting with our hands and teeth.

I never thought I'd say this, but I agree with Ethan here.  Humans are not
completely slaves to their evolutionary past.  If we were we would still be
living in kin-selected tribes where everyone is more or less related to
everyone else.  If one looks at human history, one can trace a societal
evolution paralleling the biological one:

 families  ==> clans ==> tribes ==> ethnic groups ==> nation states

In each step, the group that humans identify themselves with gets increasingly
larger and increasingly divergent in terms of genetics.  Certainly, even in
countries like the U.S. and Canada, people still identify themselves with
ethnic groups (hence racism, the Quebec separatist movement, etc.), but in
times of war, for example, almost nobody refuses to fight because their ethnic
identity is more important to them than their nationalistic identity.

Animals rarely move beyond the "clans" stage, if they even make it that far. 
In almost all animal societies that I can think of, such as bee hives, packs
of wolves or apes, etc., the individuals are relatively closely related.

I think Ethan Clarke's general idea of a revolution solving our problems is
naive, but if it would work then I see no reason to disparage it.  Mother
Nature fucked up when she gave us our brains, because she accidently freed us
from our evolutionary bondage.  We can now look at our societies, and say, 
"this is bad for the nation as a whole," and at least try to fix it.  Maybe
someday we will outgrow even nation-states, and look on all of humanity in
the same way we look at our own families.  Until then, Ethan's call for
revolution remains a mere dream, but just because we can't do something now
doesn't mean the idea is bad.  Nor should we assume that just because nature
makes us selfish and xenophobic that it is *good* for us to be like that.

"Send not to learn for whom the bell tolls/It tolls for thee."
(or something to that effect)

--
Charles Murtaugh
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
From: jon@afs.com (Jonathan Hendry)
Subject: Re: _The Turing Option_
Distribution: USA
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 19:09:16 GMT

In article <Btuwx0.1I3@rice.edu> ratner@owlnet.rice.edu (Logan Joshua Ratner)  
writes:
>In article <COSC176T.92Aug29235513@menudo.uh.edu> cosc176t@menudo.uh.edu  
(Jason Asbahr) writes:
>>
>> Hans Moravec says:
>>
>>>   You're right, technology is making things worse.  Let's get
>>>   rid of television.
>>
>>I wouldn't mind getting rid of *most* of television, and changing
>>the nature of the rest.  An alarming (is it fashionable to be
>>alarmist?) portion of everyday television programming is fairly
>>mind-numbing stuff -- I try to avoid it whenever possible!
>
>
>Oh, I really feel I must disagree.  Personally, I find most aspects
>of Pop Culture academically fascinating.  Visual media especially so.
>Actually, there seems to be a large emphesis in studying Pop Culture
>within Postmodern thought (especially in Literary Circles.)  Seeing
>Jason posted to alt.cyberpunk I feel free to bring up postmodernism.
>
>In any case, I feel TV may in fact be the best window into the mass
>subconscious around.  Want to see what really moves a modern culture?
>Check out the top rated shows in prime time, then ask yourself, "Why
>does this sell?"
>
>To put it in 'punk terms, the masses can be useful if you know how
>to move them.  If that seems callous, well, thats the way thing run 
>in this group sometimes.
>
>There is a danger to all this, however.  Check out Gibson's short story
>"The Gernbeck Continumn" in the Burning Chrome collection.  Just because
>you are intellectually aware that you're viewing the mass subconscious 
>doesn't mean it won't reach you too.  Emotions are contagous...
>
>Well, know that I've made my plug for the day, I'm going to go rent 
>a really bad movie.  They keep the flying saucers away %-)
>
>					Ratner
>
>P.S. I'd love to recomend I book that deals with these ideas further,
>(especially the relationship between C.P. and postmodernism) but I 
>don't remember the author off-hand.  The title is Strange Weather, and
>it is non-fiction.  If anyone is interested, I'll look it up and let 
>you know who it's by.
>					Rat
>
>

It seems to me that a lot of what's on TV is what TV types think people want.  
Once in a while, someone comes up with something new, which is quickly copied.  
The end result is that people are manipulated by marketing whizzes. Personally,  
I could do without most TV (especially MTV--Yechhh! Example of why I am  
repulsed: the series "The Real World"). All I need is CNN and Northern Exposure  
(One of the few TV shows which actually allows the mind to remain active during  
viewing). 

--
Jonathan Hendry  Anderson Financial Systems
jon@afs.com  (Nextmail Welcome!)
hendryjw@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Date: Wed,  2 Sep 1992 22:44:58 -0400 
From: "Anthony S. Polito" <ap38+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: canonization on alt.cyberpunk

About Spinrad (the only author on that list I remeber having read) -
I've only read one of his books, and that was just a couple of days ago, Bug
Jack Barron, and I must say that even though the book was written in 69 and 
computers play no part of the plot, there is a definate Cyberpunk feal to the
novel, I would like to read his other books and see if this is true there too.
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
From: usenet@inesc.pt (USENET News System)
Subject: Re: _Turing ..._
Reply-To: jota@mujave.UUCP (Joao Pedro Martins)
Organization: INESC (but what I say is my personal opinion) 
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 16:03:12 GMT

In article <1992Sep3.211133.7315@ac.dal.ca> rclarke@ac.dal.ca writes:
>We are most definetly better off than we were in the Middle Ages but people
>do have this rather doomy feel of life today.  I think it stems from the fact
>that the hippies started to grow up and had a mid life crises realising that
>the sixties didn't do all they wanted and some how it rubbed off on to other
>people but the energy of the sixtys didn't so people are just giving up so 
>things do look bleak for the future.
>--
>Ethan Clarke
>---
>Rclarke@AC.DAL.CA
>
	Ok, I agree that *SOME* people live better than in the Middle Ages,
(probably the majority) but, well, 
in those days, there were no acid rains, atomic bombs, etc. In the present,
the earth is actually being destroyed, and IMHO, it may already be too late.
We are actually beeing poisoned, and the murderer is each one of us.
	And I dont think I have a "doomy feel", I just speak from what I see.
	
	... well, this is not totally true... I do have a "doomy feel", as u put
it, but it stems from the reality surrounding us. I feel a great descredit
in the human race, probably the earth would be better off w/o us (and yes, I
do include myself in the group). Of course I don't think we should just
be exterminated (that would be a human-like reaction, to say the truth),
but many things would have to be changed to make me think diferently.

	Most of the people just tries (maybe unconciosly [misspelled ? sorry])
to avoid facing the facts just as they are.

	And, to justify this being in a.c, how many of you guys would like to
live in the universe idealized by W.G. ? 

----
 joao Pedro Martins, Lisboa, Portugal - jota@tutor.UUCP
 
 "Carpe Diem, she muttered... we seize the day.	
  Well, sometimes, the day seizes back !" (Psychodrome)
From: lyn@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (Myself)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: TV - flawed message and/or medium?
Date: 3 Sep 1992 16:15:13 -0500
Organization: Kansas State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: matt.ksu.ksu.edu

  This discussion reminds me of a Family Circus cartoon I have posted on my
wall. One of the kids is explaining Books, Radio, and TV. TV, he says, gives
you the pictures and the sounds. With Radio, you only get the sounds, and you
have to imagine what the pictures look like. With Books, you have to imagine
both. This is one of the major flaws/advantages (pick one or both) of TV vs
Books. Some like it one way, others differ. I personally like Books better, as
I can't stand how the artists draw most characters, or the actors portray
some scenes. There are also some plots that are extremely difficult to do as
a TV show or movie, but ALMOST all TV shows can be turned into a decent book.
(series excepted as a whole, but shows can be) Anyway, my reasoning,


-- 
This was brought to you by Myself(lyn@matt.ksu.ksu.edu) who is all things here.
Head of Synergy Systems, a non-official group of aspiring hackers creating and
distributing software for the common good. Head office:Terra, Sol system. We
Flames accepted-and returned with interest and intelligence compounded.
Organization: Freshman, CIT general, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Date: Wed,  2 Sep 1992 14:59:43 -0400 
From: Geoffrey Spear <gs32+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Gibson's world and Ours
	<BtxKt5.H2x@NCoast.ORG>

	I never meant to imply that Gibson was trying to predict the future.  I
was merely replying to the statement that a lot of science fictions
works tend to come true, and I don't think most of the CyberPunk
authors' 'predictions' (a bad term for it, but you know what I mean)
will.  In most cases, I really hope not!
From: rclarke@ac.dal.ca
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: Why freedom of information must be garenteed!!! [sic]
Date: 2 Sep 92 22:43:05 -0300
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

In article <JABBERWK.92Sep2113543@rigel.cs.pdx.edu>, jabberwk@rigel.cs.pdx.edu (Justin G Bailey) writes:
> Wake up and smell the coffee, rclarke!  'The poor conquering the rich' is 
> nothing more than an idealistic dream that would sabotage itself within the
If you don't have hope what is there to live for?
> first months of its life.  Rich or poor, it's all still people, and people
> are greedy, conniving, self-serving animals.  Social Darwinism is THE world
> order, never mind Mother Teresa.  What happens once the ruling class, 
The number one difference that I can see between animals and humans is that
humans are civialized and animals are not (no spelling flames please!).  To
be civilalized means that you can act above what Mother Nature wants and
change your behavior.  If we can't do that then why don't we just get rid of
all intelectual things and go back to hunting with our hands and teeth.
> suppposedly the rich, is deposed?  Who rules then?  Your 'simple, good-natured,
> peaceful' people, the poor?  Give them power over fellow humans, and you 
If you had a completely democratic socialist government that had mechinisms
to prevent coruption and includded all the people in decions so that no
would be ruling over any one else then I belive life would be much more
worth living.  Granted, this would take incredable amount of effort and
some would have to change there ways.  I think that cyberspace would
assist in this grately because you would need very fast comunications to
include everyone in the desions and that would be easiest in cyberspace.
> would get the same 'rich over poor' situation.  And tell me that anarchy would
> be the answer.  Anarachy, or socialism, are both idealogies that forget the
> inavoidable HUMAN factor.  Humans have at their core a reptile brain, and this
> still drives us onward to conquer, survive,and take!  If everybody was nice
> and peaceful and loved their brother (peace man!) then maybe anarchy or 
> socialism would work, but humans are unfortunately not that way.  Don't 
> believe me?  Then check out the current state of affairs on earth, and 
> througout history!  Stop fooling yourself with and wasting your time with 
In the past the poor have been bared from fast communication and didn't have
accses to the information nessary to realise that things could be different. 
With the invention of things like the TV, they are becoming aware that the
rich just might not have the right to screw them over.  In the past people
were tought by religion and by ethnisity that the way things are, are the way
things have been, should be, and always will be.  They are realising the truth!
> that 60's recycled hippie trash!
I don't really think it's hippie trash since most of the leftist thinking in
those days only liked comunisim and I don't agree with athoritarian forms
of government.  But since I wasn't around back then I may be wrong.
--
Ethan Clarke
---
Rclarke@AC.DAl.CA
From: "eliot gelwan" <eliot.gelwan@channel1.com>
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: boing mainstream???
Date: 29 Aug 92 15:34:19 EST
Reply-To: "eliot gelwan" <eliot.gelwan@channel1.com>
Distribution: alt
Organization: Channel 1 Communications

On 08-28-92 WEDGE wrote:

W|had about 10 copies of Mondo 7, so they must've sold out the first
W|shipment or something....And you can find Mondo at every Waldenbooks
W|across the country now...wow...I'm stunned....

Why so stunned? Mondo is whoring to the public just like any
other glossy  magazine.

...eliot                                         |
Internet: eliot.gelwan@channel1.com             -*-
    RIME: ->CHANNEL [R/O okay]                   |

---
                              [in Brookline MA  7:29 am, Friday 08/28/92]
--
Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA
From: Case@lorbit.UUCP (Parry)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: RECOMMENDATIONS
Date: 25 Aug 92 20:49:54 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: LOW ORBIT Science and Fiction

Personally, I enjoyed the William Gibson series - beginning with "Neuromancr"..
If you haven't read this one, go get it! (Does everyone agree?)
--
No persecution for opinion...
				>>Case<<  - -:-)
"Lightfinger" Rayek's Friendly Casino: 206/528-0948, Seattle, Washington.
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
From: space2@hardy.u.washington.edu (Tim Oerting)
Subject: Re: what is Cyberpunk?
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 17:16:17 GMT

In article <13499.2a9a3ac9@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu> cpalmer@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu writes:
>I was just wondering if someone could explain to me what Cyberpunk is, or
>stands for.
>I go to school at the U of Michigan, and see drawings (very
>good ones, by the way) of a man called cyberpunk.  
>I also have seen them at OSU in Columbus.

Well it is a culture of people who really have read the faq. The drawings you
mention are graffiti perpetrated by those same denziens who have read the FAQ.
Thats basically what our FAQ is for... to explain how to make K00L Cyperpunked
Drawings on Big 10 campuses. Particularly the High St. area of Columbus.

>Now, I am scrolling up the news groups, and see Cyberpunkj
>again.
>I am very curious as to what this is all about.

This is where we meet to spread CP propoganda and to discuss our latest draw-
ings. We often u/l our drawings in gif format to a.b.p groups.

>Thanks a lot!
>
Gladly... If you read our FAQ (only a few messages before the one you posted)
you will find more information that could clear up any misunderstandings I
may have created in this reply. 
.
From: bladex@wixer.cactus.org (David Smith)
Subject: Re: bOING bOING mainstream??? :)
Organization: Real/Time Communications
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 92 22:48:56 GMT

In article <1992Aug23.031120.18194@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu (w
edge) writes:
>
>Wonder of wonders....I walked into my local Newsland today - (Newsland
>being a huge Newsstand carrying just about every large domestic and
>foreign publication, as well as a number of the more popular zines and
>stuff, and also just about every porno mag one could ever possible
>want and not want)...On my way back to the computer magz, I passed by
>the section that has Mondo, and right above Mondo was <drum-role>
>bOING bOING!  I was pretty much stunned, since I'd never seen it at a
>store before, obviously....Also, last time I was there I got a copy of
>Mondo 7, and it was the next to the last copy - this time arround they
>had about 10 copies of Mondo 7, so they must've sold out the first
>shipment or something....And you can find Mondo at every Waldenbooks
>across the country now...wow...I'm stunned....
>

Yes, the editor of bOING-bOING is attempting to take the zine full-time
mainstream.  Two of the contributing editors, Paco Nathan Xander and Jon
Lebkowsky are based in Austin, btw, and Paco was telling me that the next
issue was scheduled to ship around the first of September.

About the only thing I know for sure is in the next issue is an interview
with Bruce Sterling during the Robofest held back in May or so.


-- 
| Cyberspace: The Narcotic of Choice for the 90's | this space left
| bladex@wixer.cactus.org                         | unintentionally
--------------------------------------------------- blank..........
From: bliss32@terapin.com (Geoff Schmidt)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: _The Turing Option_
Date: 2 Sep 92 05:09:23 GMT
Organization: BBS

In article <8Tk6PB1w165w@entropy.mcds.com>, morpheus@entropy.mcds.com (Purple
Haze...) writes:
>chris@kbsw1 (Chris Kostanick 806 1044) writes:
>
>> People today live longer and eat better than at any time in
>> history. This is scarred and desolate?
>
>Who wants to live longer?  To be fucked over by the government more?
>
>Only reason I'd want to live longer is to outlive the government.
>
>
>
>--
>Big Brother is watching.  So are the Illuminati.  Maybe even your mother.
>morpheus@entropy.mcds.com  /\/\/\/  f208.n2606.z1.fidonet.org

I'd like to see you give us 10 goods reasons for living in this age.  And not
any of this "peace of good nature to all man" crap either (meant to chris) not
morpheus.  In my life Ive found their is very little to do and there is
becoming less all the time.

 bliss32
From: tmaddox@netcom.com (Tom Maddox)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: Blade Runner Director's Cut
Date: 1 Sep 92 07:11:48 GMT
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)


	This same director's cut will apparently be shown at the Grand Lake
Theater in Oakland, California, beginning September 11, 1992.

	Which might tell us that there's going to be a rash of such showings.
-- 
				Tom Maddox
		    	    tmaddox@netcom.com
		   "I swear I never heard the first shot"
                Wm. Gibson, "Agrippa:  a book of the dead"
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
From: tbredeho@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Thomas A Bredehoft)
Subject: canonization on alt.cyberpunk
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 19:30:53 GMT

Here's a brief comment based on my experience reading this group; perhaps it 
will generate some discussion in return.

As members of this group have debated and re-debated the definition of 
cyberpunk, they have traditionally ended up taking one of two stances, one of 
which is the utterly unsatisfactory "it's all attitude" (unsatisfactory because
it avoids defining what attitude(s) is or are important).  The other tendency 
is to refer to the literary works of William Gibson or Bruce Sterling as 
guidelines.  One of the flaws I see in this, however, is that it relies 
implicitly on these individuals' impressions of what cyberpunk 
is--_Mirrorshades_ contains stories thatSterling felt were cyberpunk, nothing 
more.  Likewise, using Gibson's future world as a measuring stick for 
determining whether or no another work is cyberpunk relies upon accepting his 
personal stance.  What I'd like to suggest to members of this group is that 
such a reliance upon canonical texts and authors is essentially conservative 
and reactionary--and perhaps inimical to cyberpunk's literary aims.  Consider 
then, this article as a plea to members of this group to give appropriate 
levels of discussion and commentary to the seminal cyberpunk works as such 
relatively neglected authors as Cadigan, Shirley, Rucker, Lewitt, and Spinrad.

Thomas A. Bredehoft
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
From: ahw02@rrz.uni-koeln.de (A. Almonacid-Lessmann)
Subject: Re: C-punk and etc. (Anarchy!)
Organization: Regional Computing Center, University of Cologne, F. R. Germany
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 92 08:49:02 GMT

In <714833733.8420@zooid.guild.org> ron@zooid.guild.org (Secret Mud) writes:

>From: dasher@well.sf.ca.us (D Anton Sherwood)
>>Very funny.  Some of us don't think anarchy means chaos...
>Yes, but most of you live in California.
 ...but not all... 
:-)
   Aleks A.
From: cpalmer@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: what is Cyberpunk?
Date: 25 Aug 92 13:51:05 EDT

I was just wondering if someone could explain to me what Cyberpunk is, or
stands for.
I go to school at the U of Michigan, and see drawings (very
good ones, by the way) of a man called cyberpunk.  
I also have seen them at OSU in Columbus.
Now, I am scrolling up the news groups, and see Cyberpunkj
again. 
I am very curious as to what this is all about.
If anyone could E-mail me an explanation, I would appreciate it.  I am
very curious now.
Thanks a lot!
From: jabberwk@rigel.cs.pdx.edu (Justin G Bailey)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: Why freedom of information must be garenteed!!! [sic]
Date: 2 Sep 92 18:35:43 GMT
	<1992Aug26.145617.24767@news.acns.nwu.edu>
	<1992Aug26.142317.7154@ac.dal.ca>
Organization: Portland State University, CS Dept.
In-reply-to: rclarke@ac.dal.ca's message of 26 Aug 92 17:23:17 GMT

Wake up and smell the coffee, rclarke!  'The poor conquering the rich' is 
nothing more than an idealistic dream that would sabotage itself within the
first months of its life.  Rich or poor, it's all still people, and people
are greedy, conniving, self-serving animals.  Social Darwinism is THE world
order, never mind Mother Teresa.  What happens once the ruling class, 
suppposedly the rich, is deposed?  Who rules then?  Your 'simple, good-natured,
peaceful' people, the poor?  Give them power over fellow humans, and you 
would get the same 'rich over poor' situation.  And tell me that anarchy would
be the answer.  Anarachy, or socialism, are both idealogies that forget the
inavoidable HUMAN factor.  Humans have at their core a reptile brain, and this
still drives us onward to conquer, survive,and take!  If everybody was nice
and peaceful and loved their brother (peace man!) then maybe anarchy or 
socialism would work, but humans are unfortunately not that way.  Don't 
believe me?  Then check out the current state of affairs on earth, and 
througout history!  Stop fooling yourself with and wasting your time with 
that 60's recycled hippie trash!
}:=
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
From: tychay@juliet.caltech.edu (Chay, Terrence Y.)
Subject: Re: RUSerious/Hirearchies, Free info., etc
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: California Institute of Technology
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 12:10:00 GMT

In article <1992Aug31.032138.3619@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>, 
Jeremiah.Blatz@dartmouth.edu (Jeremiah Blatz) writes...

     Think *SIGNAL*, not noise!

Jeremiah,
  if i increased the signal enough to use all the possible bandwiths do you
know what it becomes?
  answer: noise.

  so whats the difference :-) ?

-------
this is my .sig, deal with it.

          -terrychay
                 TYCHAY@CITJULIE.BITNET
                 tychay@juliet.caltech.edu
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk