From: tsanasta@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Anastassiades)
Subject: Conflict could lay foundations for Islamic state in Europe 
Organization: Advanced Rotorcraft Technology 
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 21:56:41 EDT

>Anastassiades wrote (among other things):
>Presently, it is the West that holds the wealth of this planet,
>it is the West that has aggressively imposed itself on all the
>Continents, often exterminating or pushing aside the local 
>populations (American Indians, blacks in South Africa, etc.),
>it is the West that holds the power and dictates its will on 
>the rest of the planet.  

Aras replied:
So, according to your previous definition, we should label the West as
"Barbarians", since they have achieved the same ends with usually the
same or more brutal means.

    Yes, Easterners could very well label the West as "Barbarians"
    as far as conquering and displacing other people is concerned.
>
>So far I have only presented the facts and - whether anybody
>likes it, or not - that's the way it is.
>
>To the West, the Muslim world today, as represented by the Saddam
>Husseins, the Moammar Khaddafis, the Khomeinis, the Emirs of 
>Kuwait, the regimes that will cut thieves' arms, and execute 
>people who have committed adultery, the lack of a single 
>democratic regime in all of the Muslim world, etc., etc., is
>something that is frightening, alien, and threatening.
>

Two mistakes. The notion of punishment is relative to the social customs
of a country. The cutting of a thieves arm is no different than the
castration of a rapist as was practiced or is practiced in the US.
Turkey is a Muslim country and has been democratic in principle and
mostly democratic in practice since 1923. 

    Let's not argue on this point.  To me, a Westerner, the widespread 
    sacrifice of animals, the public hangings and the lack of democracy
    are all associated with Islam, and are alien.  To you, they might be
    the norm... We must understand each other's prespectives!

    As far as Turkey being a Muslim democracy, let's put it this way:
    Compared with Saudi Arabia, it is democratic heaven, but principle
    and practice might be a long way apart...

>To get back to Erland's paragraph, no, the West does not 
>want a Muslim state in the heart of Europe, because it is
>afraid that it will align itself with the Eastern powers
>of Islam, and will be a threat to it!
>
>As well as people (Westerners, especially leaders), mask this
>fear, it is all too evident.  It would be extremely nice if
>we could have Christians, Jews, Muslims, Confucians, etc.
>coexist peacefully in one world.  Just like it would be 
>great if we could have "people" instead of Americans, Pakistanis, 
>Italians, Chinese... But humans will always find something, be it
>religion, be it national sentiments, be it regional sentiments, 
>whatever, to use as a means of distinguishing them from each 
>other.  
>
>If we take all this into consideration, it is all too obvious, why 
>the West confronts the East, why black Americans and white
>Americans have problems coexisting, why Pakistanis and Indians 
>have 2 different countries to live in, etc., I hope you get my point... 
>
>I know that the East has similar views of the West as being "evil"
>And they probably have some very valid arguments to support that
>view...
>
>But I am trying to be realistic here, and I cannot see any reason
>why the West - from a position of absolute power - would ever
>want to give away any of that power voluntarily to someone else
>(Muslims, Easterners, Martians...).  

The above two paragraphs seem like a modern version if the "Prince",
absolutely practical and without priciple. Now, as a Greek, here is a
question for you then: By these terms, The Turkish Cypriot Republic
should not negotiate with the Greek side. All is done and in terms of
power, there is a balance. The Turkish side should not voluntarily give
up any land or rights. Do you agree? 

    As a Greek, thinking with my emotions, I definetely think it 
    should.  But if I look at it
    realistically, I see NO reason for them to negotiate and
    voluntarily retreat.  And that is EXACTLY what is happening
    right now: I really do not understand why the 2 sides even
    bothered to start these "negotiations."  There is NO direct
    pressure to the Turkish side to give up anything, so indeed,
    why should they?? Aparently they asked themselves the same 
    questions and decided against any compromise... 

    The only way for them to give up any land or rights is to
    feel some external pressure to do so.  Otherwise, what I said
    above only explains the stalemate!

>To claim that the strengthening of Muslims/the East would even 
>remotely benefit the West, is a grand illusion, and is just not
>realistic in today's world!

Yes, according to Machiavellian principles, this is a valid statement.
Unfortunately, it does open a pandoras box of arguments which will
eventually catch up with all the mistreated. Remember, power is a
transient event for most countries. Be it 50, be it 200 years, each
country is destined to fail, destined to be caught up with the
inefficiencies of the creeping sedateness that occurs after a certain
critical size in power, land and influence is reached. So, if a day
comes when some other power comes up and says that it is not realistic
to have Americans in place XX or Germans in place YY since they have no
benefit to the Israelis or the Saudis, we'll be seeing a rerun of todays
events, with no lesson learned.

    This cycle that you mention above has been happening since day 1.
    "Today's events" have been happening since humans started to exist!
    I take it for granted that there will always be struggle for power
    amongst people, you seem to think that we learn from out mistakes...
    If we did, war would not exist after all these centuries that
    have been full of it - don't you think?

    - Whoever is in power now, wants to keep it.
    - No empire/world power ever gave up their reign voluntarily.
    - When the circumstances arise, (maybe in a few hundred years),
      whoever is in power then, will be dictating its will the same way 
      the West is dictating its will today.

    And I can guarantee that they will be holding on to it for as
    long as they can!!

Caglan M. Aras			| Robotics and Intel. Systems Lab.	
RISL- Box 7911			| aras@eceris.ece.ncsu.edu
North Carolina State University | ph: 919-515-5405
Raleigh, NC 27695		| 



    Tassos Anastassiades
    Mountain View, CA



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