HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: joe@grc.genroco.com (Joe Nordman)
Subject: Re: Recommendations for high disk throughput
Organization: GENROCO, Inc.
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 15:17:36 GMT

In article <C1JA9I.50x@news.iastate.edu> john@iastate.edu (John Hascall) writes:
>joe@grc.genroco.com (Joe Nordman) writes:
>
>}Actually on Ultrix systems this is not true.  IPI will still win.  The
>}paper uses a couple of arguments which are either outdated, or don't
>}apply to these systems:
>
>   [...reasons elided...]
>
>}Joe Nordman, V.P. of R&D 				joe@genroco.com 
>}GENROCO, Inc.           
>
>   Not that I doubt any of what was said, but it only seems fair
>   that people know that GENROCO makes IPI controllers for DECs...
>
>John
>-- 
>John Hascall                   ``An ill-chosen word is the fool's messenger.''

Fair enough.  I should have made that clear in my original follow-up.
I'm not in sales though.  I'm just an engineer who is proud of having
created a very good product.

People should also know that the paper which claims IPI to be the wrong 
choice was written by a company that makes it's money from SCSI.

--
Joe Nordman, V.P. of R&D 				joe@genroco.com 
GENROCO, Inc.
From: mjr@tis.com (Marcus J Ranum)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.ultrix
Subject: Re: Recommendations for high disk throughput
Date: 28 Jan 1993 20:11:37 GMT
Organization: Trusted Information Systems, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.tis.com

joe@grc.genroco.com (Joe Nordman) writes:

>People should also know that the paper which claims IPI to be the wrong 
>choice was written by a company that makes it's money from SCSI.

	Don't apologise.

	They cheated. The comparison is between a "typical" Auspex
NS5000 with 10 concurrent SCSI-1 channels versus a SPARCserver
with 1-4 IPI controllers. The picture gets clearer when statements
like:
	"The Sun ISP-80 controllers handle a 10Mb/S channel transfer
rate and are optimized (with controller buffering) for sequential
read-ahead. Despite this sequential transfer advantage, section 4.3
discusses empirical testing that confirms that the limited drive
concurrency of this style of IPI subsystem greatly restricts NFS
(random access) throughput."

	I particularly get a chuckle out of the line: "Compared to
SCSI, the IPI interface is an unintelligent interface." Now, they're
talking about *their* SCSI interfaces, which are a slick piece of
work - they aren't talking about the lame SCSI you get with your
workstation. They also declined to publish the results of testing
an IPI subsystem with a write cache. :) And they used one controller.
Benchmarking this against a RAID 0 array.

	So, we got this Auspex server with 2 CPUs, *8* *ETHERNETS*
and a RAID 0 array and - well - yeah it kicks ass. You are surprised?

	The paper is bogus and I'm surprised it got past the program
committee. The title is:
	"How and why SCSI is better than IPI for NFS"
	and then they proceed to argue that it's better because,
well, it's cheaper and nothing does particularly well given NFS'
weird load characteristics.
	and *THEN* they conclude:
	"The result is that SCSI disk arrays easily outperformed a
contemporary, optimized IPI drive subsystem on NFS workloads."
	Hangon.
	The paper title should have read:
	"Disk arrays proven fast"
	Rocket science.

mjr.
-- 
                                                 "guns don't die. people do."
Newsgroups: comp.unix.ultrix
From: alan@nabeth.enet.dec.com (Alan Rollow - Alan's Home for Wayward Tumbleweeds.)
Subject: Re: Three swap partitions on Ultrix 4.3?
Reply-To: alan@nabeth.enet.dec.com (Alan Rollow - Alan's Home for Wayward Tumbleweeds.)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 04:18:48 GMT


In article <19633.2b5f18fd@levels.unisa.edu.au>, ccbjs@levels.unisa.edu.au writes:
>
>Is it possible to configure an Ultrix 4.3 system to use 3 disks
>for swap?   The documentation for swapon  sort of suggests it is.
>We have found from experience that swapon  doesn't work unless
>the kernal was configured to use it, eg two partitions:

As far as I know more than two is supported and works.  I'm not sure
what the limit is.  I was able to pretty quickly configure a system
with five for a reply to this.  Below is a cut and paste transcript
of what I did.  The command "swapdev" is something I wrote ages ago
to walk through the "_swdevt" data structure and put names to the
device numbers.

>
>When we added the 3rd partition to fstab it would boot OK, but strange
>things happened:
>  pstat -s returned
>  -8k    (Thats minus!) for swap configured.
>

The only thing intesting I saw as I added each swap device was that
the amount missing got smaller and the amount "reserved" got larger.
It looks like the space not turned on is reserved.

>  and top failed to execute.

It would be tacky if top only expected a limited number of devices.

It's also possible that one of the devices has a strange size and
is causing problems.  You should be able to look at the kernel swap
device table with dbx:

# dbx -k /vmunix /dev/mem
(dbx) print swdevt[0]
(dbx) print swdevt[...]
(dbx) print swdevt[n-1]

Here's my transcript.

# swapdev
/dev/ra0b:
        Freed: 1
        NBlks: 190464
/dev/ra4b:
        Freed: 1
        NBlks: 190464
/dev/ra8b:
        Freed: 0
        NBlks: 190464
/dev/ra129b:
        Freed: 0
        NBlks: 190464
/dev/ra60b:
        Freed: 0
        NBlks: 190464

# swapon /dev/ra8b
# pstat -s
476158k swap configured
197909k reserved virtual address space
        15k used (0k text, 0k smem)
        285679k free, 0k wasted, 190464k missing
avail: 8927*32k 15*1k

# swapon /dev/ra129b
# pstat -s
476158k swap configured
102679k reserved virtual address space
        15k used (0k text, 0k smem)
        380911k free, 0k wasted, 95232k missing
avail: 11903*32k 15*1k

# swapon /dev/ra60b
# pstat -s
476158k swap configured
7449k reserved virtual address space
        15k used (0k text, 0k smem)
        476143k free, 0k wasted, 0k missing
avail: 14879*32k 15*1k


>
>Thanks for your help, Bevin Steer, Unix Systems Manager,
>------------                                                      ------------
>ccbjs@levels.unisa.edu.au
>Phone:  +61-8-302-3271                                           Fax: 302 3385
>Computer Centre, University of South Australia, The Levels, SA 5095, Australia
>
--
Alan Rollow				alan@nabeth.cxo.dec.com

Xref: sparky comp.unix.ultrix:9507 comp.sys.dec:7142
From: ricky@FibHaifa.com (Ricardo <Ricky> Marek)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.ultrix,comp.sys.dec
Subject: NFS server: fs(0,0) not mounted error message?
Date: 27 Jan 93 15:23:52 GMT
Reply-To: ricky@FibHaifa.com
Followup-To: comp.unix.ultrix
Organization: Fibronics ltd., Haifa - ISRAEL
Originator: ricky@vivaldi


Hello DEC gurus:

I got the problem that many times in the console I got the following
messages:
...
NFS server: fs(0,0) not mounted, read, client address = 128.0.2.153
NFS server: fs(0,0) not mounted, read, client address = 128.0.2.208
...

Where, 128.0.2.153 and 128.0.2.208 are two PC-NFS dos machines mounting
some file-systems on our machine, running Ultrix 4.2

Any Hint?

Please via e-mail, to ricky@FibHaifa.com

--- Ricky
-- 
--
From: nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.ultrix
Subject: Re: Load average way too high
Date: 25 Jan 93 22:11:53 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1993Jan25.221153.18355
Reply-To: nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR

In article <1993Jan25.180613.14316@bernina.ethz.ch> karrer@bernina.ethz.ch (Andreas Karrer) writes:
>Processes in resource-wait state (check with ps aux|grep D) also contribute
>to the load average; any hung tape drives around?

I've noticed that zombie processes consistently add one to the load
average. Beats me why this is true - zombies consume the least
resources possible for any process. On the other hand, zombies aren't
supposed to stick around for very long, so in theory you wouldn't have
a zombie inflating the load average for very long.

Tell that to the child of the rpc.yppasswdd that's running now.

Has anyone hacked sps so that it can read the arguments to a process
in the listing?
                __
nelson@reed.edu \/  Homosexuals were invented for an episode of Barney Miller
Newsgroups: comp.unix.ultrix
From: rkohli@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu (Ordering of infromation inhibits paralellism!)
Subject: YP/NIS
Originator: news@kittyhawk.ecn.uoknor.edu
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 17:17:00 GMT
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Oklahoma - University Computing Services

Greetings all,
     At our installation we a farm of DECstations running ULTRIX-4.2. There is
one main server for YP/NIS and the rest are clients. My question is what should 
be the entries for the /etc/svc.conf file so that the clients are able to 
recieve the passwd and other maps when I propogate them from the main server.

Any help is appreciated as I'm new to this, E-MAIL please!!!!!!

Thnaks for your attention,
Ranjan.


Newsgroups: comp.unix.ultrix
From: huober_r@hal.rz.uni-ulm.de (Reiner Huober)
Subject: when does NFS-exports recognize new netgroup
Organization: Universitaet Ulm
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 17:15:37 GMT

Hi,

we use DECstations under Ultrix4.1 and 4.2 and machines from other
vendors. Recently, we bought a new sun. In our environment, we
distriubute the existence of our new machine via NIS, where
all servers are suns (this is because otherwise BIND is not supported
on suns) running SunOS4.1.2. We distribute a NIS-netgroup database,
which contains entries for all hosts in "somegroup". Our /etc/exports
can now be connfigured as   "/directory somegroup" and everythings fine.

Some NFS-Directories are distributed from Ultrix, which has no "exportfs"
command to announce changes in the /etc/exports-file. On our other
machines (Suns and Sgis), there is no problem, but a few days I couldn't
mount any Ultrix-NFS-server directory to the new sun, there was a
message like "RPC: invalid client credential" indicating that there 
is no permission. Now everything seems to run.

How can I inform Ultrix from changes in /etc/netgroup of the YP-Server
and when does Ultrix normally recognize the change?
Newsgroups: comp.unix.ultrix
From: rogers@errno.alf.dec.com (Joe Rogers)
Subject: Re: Phys. memory info
Reply-To: rogers@errno.alf.dec.com (Joe Rogers)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation, Alpharetta, GA.
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 14:55:36 GMT



	Most true blue UN*X people hate the utility, but uerf(8) can be
	used to find this out without privledged access to /dev/mem, etc.

	/usr/etc/uerf -R -o full -r 300 shows the following:

********************************* ENTRY     1. *********************************
----- EVENT INFORMATION -----

EVENT CLASS                             OPERATIONAL EVENT
OS EVENT TYPE                  300.     SYSTEM STARTUP
SEQUENCE NUMBER                  1.
OPERATING SYSTEM                        ULTRIX 32
OCCURRED/LOGGED ON                      Mon Jan 11 16:08:15 1993 EST
OCCURRED ON SYSTEM                      elvis.alf.de
SYSTEM ID                 x0E04105F
PROCESSOR TYPE                          KA9000
PROCESSOR COUNT                  2.
PROCESSOR WHO LOGGED      x00000000
MESSAGE                                 ULTRIX V4.3 (Rev. 44) System #1: Mon
                                         _Dec 14 14:44:55 EST 1992
                                        real mem  = 536346624
                                        avail mem = 467317760
                                        using 6547 buffers containing 53633024
                                         _bytes of memory
Newsgroups: comp.unix.ultrix
From: maj@cl.cam.ac.uk (Martyn Johnson)
Subject: Re: LinkWorks & reclock
Keywords: linkworks reclock
Organization: U of Cambridge Computer Lab, UK
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 12:08:27 GMT

In article <1k3vs7INN222@irz401.inf.tu-dresden.de>, beck@irs132.inf.tu-dresden.de (Andre Beck) writes:
... 
|> after running lwksetup on a DEC 5000/xxx client I get lots of the following
|> lines in my xconsole:
|> 
|> remote_block reclock 1000B080
...

Have you got the latest lockd patches (UVO1577)?  I found that these
messages went away when I installed this (and it solved other problems
too).

-- 
Martyn Johnson      maj@cl.cam.ac.uk
University of Cambridge Computer Lab
Cambridge UK
From: hunt@shy.umd.edu (Brian Hunt)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.ultrix
Subject: Re: POP Server for ULTRIX?
Date: 27 Jan 93 16:31:11 GMT

frank@croton.nyo.dec.com (Frank Wortner) writes:
>4.2: 	/etc/popd
>4.3:	/usr/lib/mh/popd

Um, I have 4.2A and /etc/popd is a directory (empty) on my machine and
a couple others here.  However, I do seem to have /usr/lib/mh/popd,
haven't tried it though.

Brian Hunt
hunt@ipst.umd.edu
From: maki@jit.dec.com (Watanabe Maki)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.ultrix
Subject: Re: gp relocation error???
Date: 26 Jan 93 03:33:43 GMT
Organization: Financial dist./EIC/DS/DEC-Japan

In article <1993Jan20.082939.3884@nic.csu.net> sulistio@sutro.SFSU.EDU (Sulistio Muljadi) writes:

Hello, Mul.

Try to compile with -G 0 option for your ALL sources, and
link with the "G0 version" of the standard libraries( libc_G0.a, 
libm_G0.a ).

wm

--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Watanabe Maki	General Service EIC/DEC-Japan
Internet	maki@jit.dec.com || maki@jit.dec-j.co.jp
Easynet		TKOV50::MA_WATANABE
Newsgroups: comp.unix.ultrix
From: streater@unixhub.SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Tim Streater)
Subject: I installed Motif, can I delete DECwindows?
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 02:13:01 GMT

I just upgraded to Ultrix 4.2C, that is I loaded the Motif 1.1.3 subsets. Does
this mean that there are now older DECwindows subsets I can delete as they are
no longer being used, and if so which ones?

Thanks - Tim.
From: kathy@hamlet.umd.edu (Kathryn M. Orhelein)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.ultrix
Subject: can't NFS mount from HP/UX
Keywords: NFS HP/UX Ultrix
Date: 22 Jan 93 23:10:49 GMT


I can NFS mount an HP/UX 8.0.7 file system on some of my Ultrix 4.2c
systems, but not others, and I can't figure out why.

The error message I get is 
	# mount rserver:/newdisk /newdisk
	nfs_mount: rserver:/newdisk server not responding: 
	RPC: Authentication error; why = Invalid client credential
	nfs_mount: access denied for rserver:/newdisk

On the two client Ultrix systems: 
	the inetd.conf, services, and hosts files are the same.
	neither runs named.
	each uses a default route instead of routed.
	the system that works is on a different subnet HP,
	the system that doesn't work is physically next to the HP and
	on the same network.
	each can nfs mount other Ultrix filesystems.

On the HP server:
	both clients are in the hosts file, there is no resolv.conf.
	showmount -e shows
		export list for rserver:
		/newdisk            everyone
	can mount filesystems from the Ultrix systems.

I have no idea where to look next and would appreciate any solutions
or possible ideas.  Thanks.


-- 
Kathy Orhelein			kathy@umd5.umd.edu	
U of Md. CSC Systems staff	(301)405-2961
From: kchiles@olympic.llnl.gov (Keith Chiles)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.ultrix
Subject: Re: ULTRIX .or. OSF?
Date: 28 Jan 93 16:36:21 GMT
Reply-To: kchiles@olympic.llnl.gov (Keith Chiles)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


|> Hi!
|> 
|> I have heard a rumour that DEC is going to sack
|> OSF for MIPS.....
|> That means no shared librarys among other things.

I too waited patiently for osf/1 to cure all my Ultrix Ills.  Then I
realized that I was actually,
and stupidly, listening to nothing but words from DEC sales.  I then
asked myself if I was
really looking for a NEW and IMPROVED UNIX or just a UNIX that does the
job well.  I concluded
that osf/1 may have a future, but not with me.  I won't say that I plan
to dump dec, but since
I plan to transition to svr4, you can guess what I am thinking.
 
|> Why oh why DEC, how can you treat us, the faitful users like this?

I believe that it is because with all the wisdom of DEC, they must know
more about
what we need than we do.  Actions speak louder than words.  I prefer to
define what
my needs are and then select a vendor that provides what I need, not to
follow the vendor
to the promised land.  Sometimes the promised land is just a place full
of promises.  If I ran 
DEC, I would go to a single chipset and then provide the o/s and
applications needed to 
fit the needs of a majority of my customers.  I would eleminate less
profitable product lines
in favor of those that are selling well and transition my faithful
customers to the new line with 
really GREAT incentives, even at a loss.  I would let the chips fall
where they may and then 
build on the new line to gain marketing focus.  I suspect that MAY be
DEC's plan, but from 
what my sales person says, DEC still acts like it is trying to be all
things to all people.
  
Keith
kchiles@arac.llnl.gov

Newsgroups: comp.unix.ultrix,comp.sys.dec
From: giltner@pogo.colorado.edu (Jon Giltner)
Subject: SCSI CAM and third party devices (specifically HP35480A DAT)
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 16:10:52 GMT


I posted this request a few days ago and got no responses, but I have more  
info now so I figure I'll try again. It wasn't too long ago that Ultrix  
engineers were gushing over the virtues of SCSI CAM in this group. One of you  
should be willing to answer some fairly simple questions.

I would like to select data compression on an HP35480A DAT drive by using  
/dev/rmt0h (an no data compression by using /dev/rmt0l). I don't know what  
type of drive DEC's tlz06 is, but in cam_data.c compression is selected by a  
compression code (either 0x00 or 0x01?) in the device's density table. From  
having a customer support engineer read me some lines of source we concluded  
that the compression code is used in a SCSI mode select that sets the Select  
Data Compression Algorithm byte (byte 14) in the Device Configuration Page  
(Page code 0x10). This apparently does the trick for the tlz06. However, the  
manual for the HP drive says that the Select Data Compression Algorithm field  
is "not supported by the drive and must be cleared to zero." 

Instead there is a Data Compression Characteristics Page (Page Code 0x0f -  
which is "reserved" according to the SCSI2 spec ?). In this page there are  
several fields, one is Data Compression Enable, another is Compression  
Algorithm. I see in cam_data.c that there is a mode select table that can be  
set up so that up to eight mode selects can be done for a device on open, but  
it does not appear to be minor number specific - the mode selects will be done  
no matter which device file is used, so this is no better than just flipping  
the compression dip switch on the drive.

--
Jon Giltner
Computing and Network Services          University of Colorado 
(giltner@spot.Colorado.EDU)             Boulder
Newsgroups: comp.unix.ultrix
Subject: Re: Looking for Ultrix based X-Window Text Editor 
From: shea@hawk.cs.ukans.edu (Gary Shea)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 03:29:17 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Kansas Computer Science Dept

In article <1993Jan8.150115.23083@pb.com> hurme@micro2.pb.com (John Hurme) writes:
>We are currently looking for a decent X-Window Text File Editor
>with more functionality than xedit.  Does anyone know of any
>X-Window editors that are available on the internet or commercially?
>It should be easy to use for end-users.
>
>Thanks

We use the mxedit editor from John Ousterhout's group at Berkeley.  It
is based on the Tcl/Tk packages and is easy to build/use.  It is a
simple visual editor, but very efficient from the user's perspective
-- much more so than xedit, which strikes me as a sort of low-grade
emacs-in-a-window, and which is after all just a XToolkit demo.
The editor comes with a built in tutorial which is triggered by
calling it with no file argument.  Many necessary features are
available by menu for the utter novice (like exit, always a challenge
in a new editor).

It's most unusual user interface feature is the ability to scroll
the screen from anywhere on it -- you essentially 'grab' the screen
and move it up or down, which is much nicer than pulling the window
to the top and finding a scrollbar to move with (there's a scrollbar
too for those long moves).

It's amazingly customizable and extendable.  All the internal
bindings are available by just pulling up one of the standard menu
entries, and the programming language for extension is Tcl, which
is versatile and gradually becoming omnipresent :)

tk2.3.tar.Z can be had by anonymous ftp from sprite.berkeley.edu (in the
/tcl directory); mxedit is available from barkley.berkeley.edu in
/tcl/extensions.

-- 

Gary Shea (shea@cs.ukans.edu)
Dept of Computer Science
Lawrence, Kansas
From: iglesias@draco.acs.uci.edu (Mike Iglesias)
Subject: Re: Upgrading to Ultrix 4.3 with a common /usr?
Newsgroups: comp.unix.ultrix
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 21 Jan 93 22:14:39 GMT

In article <105944@netnews.upenn.edu> lau@desci.wharton.upenn.edu (SH-DH 1325) writes:
>We're at the precipice of upgrading from 4.2a to 4.3.  Our "unsupported"
>configuration is the common /usr for the server and diskless clients, i.e.,
>one /usr area for everyone.
>
>What is the proper procedure for ugrading to 4.3 in this situation where there
>is only one /usr?  How to do upgrade the clients' /dlenv0/root0.mips without
>the /usr tree?

I did something similar to this when we upgraded a group of systems from
4.2 to 4.2a.  What I did was to install 4.2a on the server (updates both
root and /usr).  I used the information in the /usr/etc/*425.inv files
to make a tar saveset of what had changed in the root area and restored
that file to each of the clients.  Finally, I built a new kernel for the
clients and rebooted them.


Mike Iglesias                        Internet:    iglesias@draco.acs.uci.edu
University of California, Irvine     BITNET:      iglesias@uci
Office of Academic Computing         uucp:        ...!ucbvax!ucivax!iglesias
Distributed Computing Support        phone:       (714) 856-6926
Newsgroups: comp.unix.ultrix
From: tusia@decum.muh.dec.com (Dick Tusia)
Subject: Re: processes with "D" can not be killed.
Reply-To: tusia@decum.muh.dec.com (Dick Tusia)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 08:13:30 GMT

Farid,

	Once a proc is in the D state there is no way to kill it
 until it changes state. This proc is in Disk wait or other  short-term wait. 
The priority of the proc is set so high that in  doesn't  receive signals and 
thus cannot be killed. The only way to get rid of such beasts that don't
go away
is to reboot the machine.
From: pavlov@niktow.canisius.edu (Greg Pavlov)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.ultrix
Subject: Re: ULTRIX .or. OSF?
Date: 28 Jan 93 10:16:25 GMT
Organization: Canisius College, Buffalo NY. 14208

In article <1k78j4INN3kh@slab.mtholyoke.edu>, jbotz@mtholyoke.edu (Jurgen Botz) writes:
> 
> When DEC announced last spring that they wouldn't
> be porting OSF/1 to existing MIPS machines the users screamed bloody 
> murder and DEC management said "oops" and quickly announced that they
> had changed their mind.  ....

  But was that whole "exercise" really one of decision-making or to give a
  clear "signal" to software vendors not to waste their time ?  You know,

    DEC: "OSF/1 and MIPS forever !!!
          The golden sliced bread !!"

    DEC: (six months later) "OSF/1 and MIPS ? Never !! 
         Alpha, the golden sliced bread !!"

    USERS: "You damn bloody well better !!"

    DEC: "Oh well, ok, for a while, however.....
          it's still Alpha, the golden sliced bread !!"

    VENDORS: "OSF/1 and MIPS ??? *@^#^@# You gotta be kidding !!
              (rhyme ? we don't need no stinking rhyme.  Reality
               is it's own poetry ...)"

  
> If I can't rely on DEC to support the investment I've made
> in them, I'm going to turn to Sun and/or HP which have a better track-
> record -- and guess what -- are profitable as companies because of it.
> 

  There seems to be a lot of that going on, around these parts, anyway, but
  substitute "IBM" (RS/6000) for "Sun".  Not that IBM is having an easy time
  of it either.  It's a tough (impossible ?) business to be in the computer
  vendor business these days.  Wouldn't want to be in their shoes, no way
  sir.  Life's too short as it is.

  greg pavlov
  pavlov@fstrf.org
Newsgroups: comp.unix.ultrix