From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Subject: Re: Clean And Unclean Un / Maccoby Book
Organization: University of Turku
Date: 30 Aug 92 18:50:25

In article <9208300505.AA17796@aplpy.jhuapl.edu> levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene) writes:
> Bruce Tiffany wrote:
> >>> Not among *Rabbinic* Jews, whose religion is characterized by the
> >>> rejection of Yeshua as Messiah.

> I wrote:
> >> I keep hearing this accusation, but I never get any evidence.  Nu?

> In article <LJMORLY.92Aug29192809@polaris.utu.fi> you write:
> > They say Judaism (Rabbinic) is based on Tanach, but yet it ignores the 
> > parts which talk about the Messiah being the Son of God and his death 
> > as an atonement for sins. Isn't that exactly a religion based on the 
> > rejection of Yeshua ?

> The accusation on the table is that Judaism is characterized by or
> based upon rejection of Jesus as messiah.

But what do you say about the fact that the modern day Judaism (Rabbinic)
ignores the parts which talk about the Messiah as being Son of God and
his death as atonement for sins ? Tanach also says that all men are sinners
(unlike RJ which says we've got a "Divine spark" inside) and that there
is no atonement of sins without a blood sacrifice (Lev. 16,17).
How do you think you'll get pass the angel who is standing in front of the 
paradise with a flaming sword (Gen. 3:24) ? 

> The reality is that rejection of Jesus as messiah follows from the
> tenets of Judaism, not the other way around.  I.e., rejection
> of Jesus is an effect of Judaism, not a cause.

You have it backwards. The original, biblical Judaism was Tanach Judaism.
If the rejection of Yeshua follows from the tenets of modern day RJ, that
only prooves the fact that it isn't based on Tanach.

> I'm still waiting for either proof or a retraction of your and
> Bruce's accusation.

How many quotes from Tanach do you need ? Or do you just think that you
are not allowed to believe what Tanach says, but only what Rambam or Rashi
or some other rabbi says ? What makes them more capable of knowing Hashem ?

> > Robert, you've seen all this many times already; is there still something
> > you think that makes Yeshua a false messiah ?

> A better term would be "failed messiah."  Lots of things disqualify
> Jesus.  Quoting the Ramban at the 1263 disputation, ".. And does
> not the prophet also say that at the time of messiah 'they shall not
> teach their friends war, etc.?' (Jer. 31:33) and is it not written
> (Is. 11:9) that then 'the world shall be full of knowledge of the
> L-rd as the waters cover the sea?'  And from the days of Jesus till
> now, the entire world is full of robbery and pillaging..."  Similarly,
> billions of people today are atheists and pagans.

This is because Hashem has given us a free choise. We can choose to serve 
God or to reject him. There is no other way to ichud with Hashem, but
through his Son, the Messiah Yeshua. And even then, we still have a free 
choise. Maybe you've studied world history -- from it you can see that 
when people truly serve Hashem, there is peace. The western civilization
is based on the knowing of God; just that when people have had it well 
long enough, they tend to forget God, and that's the reason for many wars. 

Dan. 9:26: "After the sixty-two 'sevens', the Anointed One will be cut 
off and will have nothing (ein lo). The people of the ruler who will come
will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood:
War will continue until the end, and desolations have been degreed."

Here you can see that the Messiah must have come before churban Beit 
haMikdash, but yet even after that there'll be wars. And if you read 
Is. 11 more carefully, you'll see that it talks about the time when the 
Messiah will be ruling in Jerusalem, i.e. when Yeshua comes back.

Dan. 7:13-14: "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was 
one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached 
the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority,
glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language 
worshipped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not 
pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."

You said that a better term would be 'failed messiah'. Does that mean that
you believe that Yeshua was the Messiah, but somehow he "failed" by dying
instead of setting a kingdom in Jerusalem ? And how would you define what
is Christianity, if not a belief in the Jewish Messiah, the real one ?

BTW if Yeshua wouldn't have risen from the dead, it would be the worst kind
of avodat zara to serve him.

> Rob

- Laura
--
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans 
of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from ancient, from the days of eternity." - Micha 5:1

"Though the mountains be shaken and the hills be removed, yet my unfailing 
love for you will not be shaken nor my covenant of peace be removed,"
says the LORD, who has compassion on you.    - Yeshaya 54:10

met b'chet, CHAI B'Y'SHUA !