HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: PRIEST@vaxsar.vassar.EDU (CAROLYN PRIEST-DORMAN)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Pole Lathes (was:  technical archery)
Date: 9 Nov 92 17:12:55 GMT
Organization: The Internet

Unto the Fishyfolk of the Rialto, greeting from Thora Sharptooth!

I have been following the debate on authentic archery with much interest, but
until now I had nothing of worth to contribute.  But some of Graydon's recent
comments (unlike most of his words, with which I agree wholeheartedly) require
a little clarification.  He said:

  >I am just a little dubious that the
  >Heroic age Norse had lathes (else why is all the furniture square?)

Not all Norse furniture is square.  Some of it was constructed rather like
modern chairs, with vertical and horizontal lathe-turned rails.  Two specific
pieces come to mind:  the small chair from the Oseberg ship burial, and a find
from Lund (which also had a wickerwork seat).  Also, most Norse "feastgear" was
wood; the bowls and cups were lathe-turned.  There is very good evidence that
the Saxons also had the pole lathe.

  >they certainly had longbows.  (Both D section and flat section
  >bows have been dug out of neolithic strata in bogs).

And, in more recent history, there was also a longbow found in a man's grave at
Birka. ;>  We're currently searching for the original write-ups on this bow.

  >Have you ever used a pole lathe?  The things are slow, cranky, fussy,
  >require a *lot* of space, and how exactly do you intend to hold a
  >.4 inck diameter dowel between the lathe centres without splitting it?

Dofinn-Hallr Morrisson (my husband) and Stephen the Devious built two
functional pole-lathes in our camp this past Pennsic (one rough draft, one
final version).  Dof produced styli on it (some of them made out of old broken
arrow shafts) to go with the diptychs he sold.  He didn't find it particularly
slow, cranky, or fussy, and the thing wasn't very large, although it did
require a couple of feet of clearance on the side where the pole stuck out.
Nevertheless, I am sure that if he were available to post to the Rialto this
week he'd agree with Graydon that producing arrows on lathes would be
difficult.

Anyone who is interested in sources, please e-mail me.

***************************************************************************
Carolyn Priest-Dorman                   Thora Sharptooth
Poughkeepsie, NY                        Frosted Hills
priest@vassar.edu                       East Kingdom
            Gules, three square weaver's tablets in bend Or
***************************************************************************
From: lalonde@cs.ubc.ca (Paul Lalonde)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: visible inauthenticity of archery
Date: 6 Nov 1992 10:27:30 -0800
Organization: Computer Science, University of B.C., Vancouver, B.C., Canada
NNTP-Posting-Host: harpo.cs.ubc.ca

SAUNDRSG@qucdn.queensu.ca (Graydon) writes:
>T. Archer has some things to say about safety, affordability, and
>convienence.  While I would not advocate insisting people use
>natural fiber bowstrings, none of those criteria involve reasons
>to *ban* the things.  (The Pennsic archery rules explicitly forbid
>natural fiber strings.)

Graydon, I was marshalling at Pennsic this year, and brought this
point up.  It turns out that (and I got this from both archer
generals so...) the wording is to stop gut strings that people 
aparantly show up with occasionally.  I was told the wording would
be corrected next year and that good quality plant fibre strings
(linen, silk) should be passed.  This is the only case I know of
of an explicit ban on natural fibres.  Lots of them are rumoured
though.

>Flemish splice strings are
>easy and fun to make; the time involved is small (second string took
>me less than an hour).  So there is a rough parity of cost.

I second this.  Just makes great finger work.  And they seem to be
kinder on the bows.  They certainly make less noise.  I shot with
a dacron flemish splice string for a while and the snap of the 
release became much quieter.  Part of the reason is that the twists
of the loops provide a bit of shock absorber effect.  I didn't do
any experiments to test if cast was any different, but I didn't notice
any difference.  I woudn't dream of doing a continuous loop string
from linen - continuous loop strings are considerably weaker at the
loops than at the serving.  With flemish splices you get at least the
same strength if not more (you can reinforce them) at the loop as at
the serving.  And since most of the stress lives on the loops...

>So, by the Frost on Uller's Beard, natural fiber strings are banned
>because... the colours are tacky?  some one idiot made a bad one
>in the Midreal 15 years ago?  no one has *tried*?  come on, someone
>fess up!

>Graydon


	Gaerhun/Paul


 Paul A. Lalonde	 	Internet: lalonde@cs.ubc.ca

"On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur, l'essentiel est invisible aux yeux"
				- Antoine de St.-Exeupery
From: odlin@reed.edu (Iain Odlin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: visible inauthenticity of archery
Date: 10 Nov 92 06:12:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Nov10.061200.1058
Organization: The Stuffed Animal Trauma Team  (We're Trained Professionals)


  Just to throw more wood on the "Recurves are period"/"No they aren't"
  fire:  Documented evidence!  ["Good Ghod!  No," I hear you cry... ;) ]

  The book is "A History of Private Life: Volume II" wherein may be found:

  (page 116)  From the "Bible d'Etienne Harding," 1109:  A drawing clearly
  showing a knight with a recurve bow (albeit oddly shaped) firing an arrow
  from a tower.  [The original is in the Dijon Library, manuscript 14]

  (page 434)  Le Livre des esches d'amour, a 15th century French painting
  depicting a lady, out hunting, resting on a downed tree and holding an
  unmistakeably recurved bow.  [The original is in the Paris Bibliotheque
  Nationale (French item #9197)]

  I by no means wish to imply that the recurve enjoyed as great a popularity
  as the longbow, but it was clearly not unknown in Medieval Europe.  And now,
  let the battle rage on undaunted!
-- 
 --------------------------------- Iain Odlin ---------------------------------
                  10 Crosby Street, Level 3, Portland ME 04103
                                 odlin@reed.edu
 -- Life: Quite interesting in places, but no substitute for the real thing. --
From: Pegasus@aaa.uoregon.edu (Pegasus)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: rec.heraldry.sca
Date: 5 Nov 92 15:35:49 GMT
Article-I.D.: fp1-dial.Pegasus-051192073432
Followup-To: rec.org.sca
Distribution: world
Organization: the Polyhedron Group
NNTP-Posting-Host: fp1-dialin-1.uoregon.edu

Question, what is going on with rec,heraldry.sca? I have not seen any new
posts for some time.  Is is a non functioning now? if so I need to tell the
right person here to take it off the server.  Any Infromation would be
useful

Pegasus
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: dburgdor@cwis.unomaha.edu (Darryl Burgdorf)
Subject: Re: Group activity
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 02:18:28 GMT


Unto Lords Alvar and Tibor, and other gentles of the Rialto, greetings!

I certainly do not advocate homogenization of our Society!  I think you've
taken a rather large leap from my actual statement that groups cannot help
but benefit from at least minimal interaction with the rest of their
Kingdom.  Nothing in that statement even implies that I think all groups
should do everything the same way!  Indeed, the variety to be found throughout
the realms of the SCA is one of our strongest points.

As to the ease (or lack thereof) with which a group can get around the law
requiring events, I admit it may be different where you are.  I was under the
(possibly inaccurate) impression that events had to be published in Kingdom
newsletters to count as "official" events on the Kingdom calendar.  It is
quite possible that that is only Kingdom law, though, and not Society law, in
which case your hypothetical situation might well be possible.

I have never encountered, either directly or indirectly, a group that was
vital and active that did NOT participate on a Kingdom level.  That is not to
say that such groups do not exist; however, I am sure there are very few, if
any.  I DO know of many groups that do not participate, and suffer for it.
Our Barony here was but one example.

That all having been said ....

I stand by my reasoning as to the rationale for the rule.  However, while I
can see the reasoning, I do not, in fact, support the rule.

I firmly hold that the vast majority of groups that don't want to interact
are doomed to ultimate failure.  But if that's their choice, so be it.  As
has already been stated, events held by these groups -- even 'legitimate'
events -- are likely not to be all that impressive.  And trying to FORCE
revitilization is something inherently more likely to fail than to succeed.

I understand (what I believe to be) the logic behind the rule.  And I can
see that it can serve a valid purpose.  (Locally, I believe the requirement
to do events was one of the few things that kept the Barony alive until other
factors broke its insularity.)  However, as others have stated, the fact that
the requirement helps one group does not necessarily mean it will help all
groups.

I don't think it's a bad rule; in fact, I believe it is based on good
reasoning and on an honest desire to keep groups active.  I simply think
it's unnecessary, and, who knows, perhaps even detrimental in a few unique
cases. 

Which, of course, was your point all along.

My apologies; I just felt like playing "Devil's Advocate".

	Ld Elwyn

 ------------------------------------------------
| dburgdor @unmcvm.unmc.edu or @cwis.unomaha.edu |
 ------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: kkr42091@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (QUEEN ZENOBIA!)
Subject: Re: Shoe Biz
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 16:48:41 GMT

Beth.Appleton@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton) writes:

> AtU> In the meantime, I'm going to events in New Balance Walkers.   I find
> AtU> moccasins to be unacceptible, if I'm going to buy 
> AtU> shoes especially for
> AtU> SCA, I wangt them to look right.   Now the question:

> AtU> Are there readily available mail-order sources for period footwear?
> I will look for the address for Medieval Moccasins, a group that sells 
> their wares at the Texas Renaissance Fair and Scarborough Faire here 
> in Texas.  Their shoes are not actually period, but perioid.  They 
> are loosely based on ghillies, the traditional and ancient shoe of 
> the Scots and Irish.  They do have a thick rubber sole, which makes 
> them more comfortable than, say, the Chinese "Mary Janes" that so many 
> of us wear.
>     Who knows, perhaps if enough of us send pictures, these folks might 
> actually make a real period shoe for us.......
>        Gwenllian Cwmystwyth
>           Steppes, Ansteorra

> * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)


I have a question for you people who have irish/scottish persona.
Why not just purchase ghillies from an irish store? There are many stores 
around the country that sell ghillies... i used to scottish country dance
when i was younger and never had a problem finding ghillies when i needed 
new ones.  You might though havea problem if you ahve a rather large
foot size [10+ in american shoe sizes], so those people might find it easier
to purchase the aforementioned shoes that are perioid.

email if you cant find a store... i have a list of some across the nation
that i have compiled from many moves :)
-kimberli roan

kyllikki tapiontyt{r.
From: jeffs@math.bu.EDU (Jeff Suzuki)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: art vs. science
Date: 5 Nov 92 18:47:36 GMT
Organization: The Internet


> According to Sir Polidor Haraldsson (15 years ago, it was), it's science
> if it hurts to drop it on your foot, otherwise it's art....

So what's Michelangelo's _David_....?  ;-)

Seriously, as someone who considers himself a "scientist" (er,
mathematician....ok, math is more art than science...) I like the
following definition: Science is a Method for Discovering Falsehoods.

While the scientific method isn't really period (Francis Bacon being
somewhat OOP) it was certainly operative, in some sense or another,
most notably in astronomy.  

(Indeed, one of the problems with Copernicus' heliocentric theory was
that, on the one hand, it gave less accurate results than the
Ptolemaic, and on the other, it predicted parallax, which was not
observed; any real astronomer of the day would --- and did --- laugh
at the idea.  E per si muove...)

Tio d'Abaco
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: james@wrs.com (James Moore)
Subject: Re: Welsh name question
Reply-To: james@wrs.com
Organization: Wind River Systems
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 19:36:35 GMT

mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:

>The Welsh letter "f" is always pronounced "v".

Unless, of course, there are two of them together, in which case
it's pronounced exactly like English 'f.'

-- 
James Moore                            /|\                        james@wrs.com
Wind River Systems                     \|/                  Alameda, California
	 "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half
			  didn't mean anything at all"
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: bwilson@eng.auburn.edu (Brian Scott Wilson)
Subject: Re: armor
Reply-To: bwilson@eng.auburn.edu
Organization: Auburn University Engineering
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1992 16:38:21 GMT


A bit to add on the subject.

1) how long a person can last at pennsic has many more factors to addin.
First where are you from? being from meridies I find Pennsic to be cool
and dry, very comfortable fighting weather. I also where very lightly 
armored compared with most people at pennsic. As a result, I can keep 
fighting for hours without losing my edge. During the woods battle
the year before last we marched to the battle. Ran 1/4 mile to a hill. 
Fought a pitched battle against three times our number. Ran to resurection.
stopped long enough to drink water. Fought along side Calontir's B army across
the field. Broke off and found the banner, took it from the East even though
outnumbered. Ran the banner back about 1/4 mile. Planted the banner and
lost it to Ansteorra (30 against 100 boy that was fun, yeah Sir Kief) and 
continued trying to get the banner the rest of the woods battle. We then 
walked back to the field and did pickups the rest of the day.

2) armor below the elbow does not significantly slow my armspeed. I do
wear leather armor on my arms. I would suggest that NO ONE ever fight
without vanbraces of some sort. Even in Meridies, aknowledged as thje 
lightest hitting kingdom in the SCA, we have broken arms. My squire
broke our friend's arm one day when he decided to forgo his ugly uncomfotable
vambraces. We have since made him new ones and I can assure you he wears
them.

Brian Princeps Meridies
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: SAUNDRSG@qucdn.queensu.ca (Graydon)
Subject: recurves are period
Organization: The Internet
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 16:44:00 GMT

Unto the Rialto, Greetings!

I would like to point out that recurved, and composite bows, are
quite possible with stone age technology - witness the descriptions
of the bowmaking of Inshi the Yana Indian by Dr. Saxton Pope.

The problem with them, until a time within living memory, is that
glue was not waterproof.  *Varnish* isn't really waterproof until
it gets too thick to stand flexing, and oil finishes do not bond
well with glue lines.  So a composite bow exposed to a lot of wet
has an annoying tendency to get a bit out of kilter.

Unsurprisingly, composite bows are used in increasing proportion
in areas that are dry, and areas that are short of trees.

So those who have the good sense to recognize the composite
bows the good Creator, who has surely understood waterproof
glue since the beginning, has hid in a particular tree hardly
need defend themselves from charges of primitivism.

Graydon
From: patmcg@home.merit.edu (Pat McGregor)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Perceptions of the SCA
Date: 8 Nov 92 16:38:47 GMT
Organization: University of Michigan
NNTP-Posting-Host: home.merit.edu

ilaine@panix.com (Liz Stokes) writes:


>	Lothar's post about experimental archaology reminded me of a Nova that
>aired recently: "This Old Pyramid". A couple of archaologists hired a team of
>Egyptian stonemasons and built an 18 foot high pyramid in the desert at Giza.
>The idea was to prove that it would be possible to build the real thing using
>the techniques historians said they used. They have us beat all to bloody
>heck :)  Call your local PBS to see if they have tapes of the episode for sale.
>		-Ilaine
 
I caught this last night flipping through the channels on a hotel TV. IT
was an exceptionally good episode of NOVA, including film footage of Carter
excavating King Tut's tomb, lots of diagrams of the interiors of the great
Pyramids, and a lot of speculation about whys and wherefores. Do try and catch
it...
 
After all, some of us *fake medievalists* ;-) ;-) do really like finding out 
the answer to the "why?" questions. 
 
Tongue firmly in cheek, I send my best regards from my temporary home
in the Cleftlands,
 
   siobhan

 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
       Siobhan Medhbh O'Roarke                Pat McGregor
       Shire Cynnabar, Middle Kingdom         3638 Greenook Blvd
                                              Ann Arbor, MI 48103-9143
       patmcg@merit.edu     
       smor@um.cc.umich.edu                   (313) 426-3506
       UserW02V@umichum.bitnet














>-- 
>Liz Stokes         | 	Wool is the easiest fiber to spin, it has scales on
>Ilaine de Cameron  | 	the surface which interlock, making a very strong 
>                   | 	thread. It practically spins itself. 
>ilaine@panix.com   |    I can see by your expression that you don't believe me.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: edwardsr@milton.u.washington.edu (Richard Edwards)
Subject: Re: You Know You're In The SCA......
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 21:31:58 GMT


Would the kind gentle who offered to Email their collection of "You know you're
in the SCA when..." postings please Email them (or a note) to me. I have lost
your address. To all others to whom I have intruded with this bothersome
missive, I ask your forbearance. Merci.

Fergus Fitzalan
Glymm Mere, An Tir
edwardsr@u.washington.edu

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Alexander of Kiev (mka Carl Alexander))
Subject: Re: Pennsic War\Fair (was Eastrealm Crown)
Organization: The Rialto
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 19:35:04 GMT

Cosmano Piero Michelotto da Roma (sinister@ac.dal.ca) writes:
>In article <1992Nov3.061353.19964@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu>, carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Alexander of Kiev (mka Carl Alexander)) writes:
>> them."  He then turned to Prince Kikuchi and asked, "It will be
>> war, won't it?"  Prince Kikuchi replied, "It will indeed be WAR." 
>> The ambassador then indicated, "No news will be more pleasing to
>> my sovereign liege of Ansteorra, for he holds dear both our
>> traditions and the prospect of a most profitable and bloody war."
>> There was lengthy & loud applause, stamping of feet, pounding of 
>> mugs upon tables, and chants of "War! War!"
  
>.... Which do people prefer?  The Pennsic *War* or the 
>Pennsic *Grand Fair* (or was it a "Police Action" ;)? 
>... the Populace at Eastern Crown
>were obviously interested in the "good old war" format.  Is there 
>really a difference?  Is it just semantics?
 
Unquestionably what Pennsic *is* these days is most nearly like a 
12th or 13th century tournament or a fair.  And quite possibly had 
the idea been widely circulated, "we've been at war for 20 years;
let's declare peace & have a {tournament fair} every year to 
celebrate..." it would have gone over pretty well.  There were 
two problems that I see with the change this year, both centering 
around the way it was done.  (1) It seemed terribly condescending
('you boys can't be trusted to play "war" so we're going to call 
it a "tournament" and you'll play nice....').  Not only was that 
merely semantics, it was insulting semantics; it was also a pretty 
damned silly way to deal with the very real problem of people 
fighting at Pennsic who don't understand the spirit of the way 
SCA fighting is done.  (2) The way it was done conveyed a sense 
that their Majesties were saying that the whole idea of Pennsic 
War was stupid and dangerous; it seemed to me and many others to 
be a slap in the face to Andrew of Seldomrest & Cariadoc of the Bow, 
and the other thirty-odd Pennsic kings who've followed in the 
tradition they established.  Again, had the idea been widely 
discussed I think this problem could have been entirely avoided:
I certainly can't speak for their Graces, of course, but I suspect 
that both Cariadoc and Andrew would see the merits in the idea of 
declaring peace & celebrating with an annual {fair tourney}.
But it was in fact handled so poorly that my own guess is that 
it will be on the order of a decade before that idea can resurface 
with any chance of actually being implemented.
 
Alexander of Kiev                       Carolingia, East

Carl Alexander                          Harvard Square, Cambridge, Mass.
carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu
alexander@pfc.mit.edu 
 
 
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: peterd@polari.online.com
Subject: Re: You know you're in the SCA....
Organization: Seattle Online Public Access Unix.  (206) 328-4944 (all lines telebit-equipped)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 03:11:13 GMT

schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei) writes:

>My favorite version of "Are you in a play" was when a five year
>old asked me "Do they pay you to dress like that?"

>The other "small world" story was when I was visiting Orlando with
>my father, and we stepped into a grocery store to buy something or
>another.  A bunch of local SCAdians were in town to buy some food,
>in garb, since it was the Saturday night of Crown Tourney.  They
>were in a separate checkout line from us, and the woman behind the
>register made some comment, like "Can you imagine normal people like
>us doing a thing like that?"  What a great time to play with someone's
>head...

My favorite story was a Coronation, during the feast.
The Guard had gone to a local resturant for a dining out.
I had missed the details (where, when, etc) and went looking
for them in Grey Stripes - my Tunic, Medieval, Generic, 1 each.
Walked into a resturant, asked if the Guard was there, receptioninst
asked if they were dressed like I was.
"Oh, No!  They're all in Kilts!

Well, it made a difference to this mad Russian.

chus
pyotr

Or Nikolai Pyotrovich Flandrovov, 
   1st Co. Zampullet
   Royal Macflandry Troop
   An Tir

rah! (half baked)

-- 
Peter D. Hampe; EKA peterd@polari.online.com
I might be arguing on my own time ...
-- 
Peter D. Hampe; EKA peterd@polari.online.com
I might be arguing on my own time ...