HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Mail Order SKS
Date: 18 Dec 1992 20:36:15 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: rocket.sw.stratus.com

In article <1gqt4aINN81a@transfer.stratus.com>, cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) writes:

> The bordering state rule is correct.  If you live in a bordering state,
> a MA dealer has to require only whatever ID that state requires.  If you
> don't live in a bordering state, you can't buy AT ALL.  (For the Carmen
> Sandiego impaired, Montana and Massachusetts aren't bordering states.)

I stand corrected.  I contacted GOAL today and was told that indeed, last
year, a pro-hunting State Senator amended the law to permit residents of
ANY other state to purchase in Massachusetts with only the documentation
they would need in their home state.

> Now, as a student, this guy could have easily applied to his local chief 
> for an FID card as a technical resident of MA.  And he probably would 
> have gotten it, since about all you need is a clean record and a small 
> denomination bill, and acording to the wire services this guy had no
> problems with either.

This is STILL true.  In a short while, I will post a local column and
the letter I sent off in response.  (The paper has a BBS, which I find
to be a great public service.)

> Massachusetts law also does not permit firearms on campus without written
> permission from the school -- though I'm fuzzy as to whether that law
> applies to all guns or just handguns.

The answer is, all guns, loaded or unloaded.
-- 

cdt@rocket.sw.stratus.com   --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
From: richa@grizzly.CNA.TEK.COM (Grizzly Amber)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Downside to FFL?
Date: 17 Dec 92 21:33:22 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Redmond,  OR.

There are more downsides to obtaining an FFL. In my case, I have one
for Gunsmithing, which also allows you to retail guns. But I do
not have a storefront to work from. I work from my house. You must
have some hours you are "open to the public" (however, this can be
by appointment only). The big downside, besides listing all my private
collection in the bound acquisition-disposition record, is that my
entire house is subject to BATF search as a business premises.
If they want to go through my underwear drawer, they have that right
because it is within the premises from which I conduct business.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: lambert@spectrum.cs.unsw.oz.au (Tim Lambert)
Subject: Re: Gun Control: A modern, REALISTIC view.
Organization: CS&E, Uni of NSW, Australia
	<1992Dec1.194447.1549@guinness.idbsu.edu>
	<LAMBERT.92Dec8022412@nankeen.spectrum.cs.unsw.oz.au>
	<1992Dec7.211643.15082@guinness.idbsu.edu>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 18:20:39 GMT

>>>>> On Mon, 7 Dec 1992 21:16:43 GMT, betz@gozer.idbsu.edu (Andrew Betz) said:

> (Tim Lambert) writes:
>>> haven't i seen comparative data from the u.s. and canada that
>>> documented more at-home burglaries (read: robberies) in canada
>>> than in the u.s.?  (at-home means citizen at home). 

>>What are we talking about here?  1. at-home burglaries, 2. residential
>>robberies or 3. "Kick in the door and take the residents by surprise"
>>robberies (NOT your typical residential robbery).  Are you using 3 as

> at-home burglaries which result in confrontation *become*
> robberies.

Not necessarily.

> i use the "kick in the door" example as a means of
> emphasizing the criminoid's lack of concern about getting
> justifiably shot by a homeowner.

I see.  How would you react to a poster who said "How many babies must
be shot before something is done about gun violence?"  Said poster
using "babies" to empasize the innocent nature of so many gun
casualties.

>>difference?  In any event, the percentage of at-home burglaries is
>>higher in the US (14%) than it is in Canada (10%).  If guns account
>>
> i don't have the comparative data handy, but i've seen the
> reverse here on t.p.g. previously.

So?  Other statements I've seen in t.p.g: "One million crimes stopped
with guns each year", "Gun training caused rapes to drop in Orlando",
"Burglaries dropped 100% (or 73% or 400%) after Kennesaw made gun
ownership compulsary", "A knife is no deadlier than a gun", "a gun is
97% effective at stopping rape".  None of these are supported by the
evidence.

>>Do you really believe that ALL criminals are deterred by guns?  Some
>>think they are immortal, others consider them "an exciting challenge",
>>others don't consider them at all, and some might be deterred.  (See
>>Wright and Rossi's survey of criminals.)  Since gun ownership can't be
>>100% effective at deterring "kick-ins", there must be some other
>>reason why it doesn't happen.
>>
> i *love* this!  since its not 100%, it must be due to something
> else!  since the correlation between smoking and cancer isn't
> 100%, its just got to be due to something else, eh tim?  i take
> it you smoke 3-4 packs a day?  interesting logic.

My compliments on a clever piece of misdirection.  Like the
correlation between smoking and cancer, the correlation in question is
less than 100%.  This is because 0 is less than 100.  Unlike the
correlation between smoking and cancer, the correlation between
kick-ins and gun deterrability is nonexistant:

Kick-ins by criminals who might be deterred by guns: 0
Kick-ins by criminals who are not deterred by guns: 0

No correlation here.  Interesting logic you use to claim causation
when no correlation exists.  I take it you read your horoscope
carefully each day.

Tim
Xref: sparky talk.politics.guns:25209 soc.culture.japan:12345
From: blamb@hri.com (Bill Lambert)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns,soc.culture.japan
Subject: Re: Rubbish!
Date: 14 Dec 92 21:57:49 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.guns
Distribution: usa
Organization: Horizon Research, Inc.

In article <Bz9G7C.3FB@SSD.intel.com>, hays@ssd.intel.com 
(Kirk Hays) writes:

> In article <Qf_eE=y00iV1A4SdZu@andrew.cmu.edu>, 
Rikiya Asano <ra01+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:

<much ranting and counter ranting deleted>

=> Kirk Hays - NRA Life.
=> "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
=> do nothing."  -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)

May I use you .sig quote?

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of sanity is for good men to
do nothing."  -- Bill Lambert (1797 - 2098)
From: jmd@cube.handheld.com (Jim De Arras)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Rikiya Asano and blatant namism (racism by another name)
Date: 15 Dec 1992 04:26:28 GMT
Organization: Hand Held Products, Inc.
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: dale.handheld.com

In article <0f_g9ka00iV1E4SatP@andrew.cmu.edu> ra01+@andrew.cmu.edu (Rikiya  
Asano) writes:
> 
> Yes, I do ! I like the Greek Culture! Now, what's wrong with that? And, do  
you
> see racism. Just because I'm asking the man if he Greek or not! C'mon!
> Be serious! Choi= most likely Korean; Lui= most likely Chinese;
> Theodroropoulus
> most likely Greek; Levy= most likely Jewish; Richiccio= most likely Italian!
> I do like them! They never did anything to me nor can they! Here is a
> little saying this is kid said to another: Sticks and stones may break
> my bones and names will never hurt me! So, in light of this philosophy,
> You are all my friends. Is something wrong with this?

Folks, he is doing this on purpose.  Have you ever heard of flamebait?  He  
craves the attention his racist put-ons get him.  Just starve him.

Jim
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: jltaylor@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Jeff Taylor)
Subject: Anti-Gun Article in Jan 93 "The Atlantic" (very harsh indeed)
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 13:04:51 GMT

I was sitting in the doctor's office this last Saturday, waiting for
my girlfriend to get finished with her appointment, when I notice a 
picture of a Cobray M-11 on the cover of _The_Atlantic_ (I am pretty
certain of the name of the magazine).  I pick up the magazine and 
start reading the article (it is the cover story for this issue).
I read about six or eight pages, and my girlfriend is walking between
room and sees my face, she knew it was going to be an ugly day in 
Bloomington. She came out a few minutes later and asked me how the article
was ... I was quite aggrivated that that kind of manure could be published
as the truth.  The main thrusts of the article, was to: a> bash the M-11
as the ultimate killing machine; b> bash a certain gun store ("Guns Unlimited")
in Virginia; c> bash gun makers/sellers (".. it's not our problem what the
guns are used for, just give us your business.."); d> bash S.W.Daniels, makers
of the Cobray firearms; e> bash FFLs for selling guns; f> general jabs 
at gun owners.

I did not get the address of the editor, or the name of the author, since 
the magazine was located in the doctor's office and I was without paper
or a pen.  Someone (about 10,000 someones) need to write to the editor
and berate the nonsensical ramblings of the writer and the attitude that
since they own the press, they can spin yarns out of meadow muffins.

I do not have a scanner, but it would be great if some civil disobediant
would scan the article (about 10 or 12 pages I think) in and post/mail it
so we can all "enjoy" it).

Just thought I would pass the information along.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: amirza@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Anmar Caves)
Subject: Re: The basic problem with anti-gun nuts.
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 20:33:26 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.000100.22277@cs.mun.ca> robin2@garfield.cs.mun.ca (Robin Collier) writes:
>Boy, you really seem to think its everyones God given right to bear arms

No, some of us seem to think it's everyones living right to defend
themselves.  Silly, I know, but it's one of those things that has kept
us from being low on the food chain.  Some of us leave other peoples
various gods out of the picture.

>Well, I guess I can't really associate with some of the problems you
>may have in your neck of the woods, since not even the police carry guns

Don't know about your neck of the woods, but here the police are
armed, as well as the citizenry.  We have a very low crime rate.

>here.  But mind you, they can do some real damage with a baton.  

A baton is a form of an arm.  A gun is merely a type of arm.  Guns can
also be used to club someone.  Your police are armed.

>Thats Right!  The Royal Newfoundland Constabulary is the only police
>force in North America that doesn't carry arms.

Wrong, there are many police forces, including campus polices here in
NA who don't carry guns.  Most can call on the local sherriff, State
Police, or RCMP for back up if needed.
-- 
Anmar Mirza   # Chief of Tranquility  #My Opinions! NotIU's!#Purveyor of
EMT-D         # Base, Lawrence Co. IN # Legalize Explosives!#nontraditional
N9ISY (tech)  # Somewhere out on the  # Politicians prefer  #family values
Networks Tech.# Mirza Ranch.C'mon over# unarmed peasants.   #Space For Rent
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Vigilantes
From: rmk@rmkhome.UUCP (Rick Kelly)
Organization: The Man With Ten Cats
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 07:08:18 GMT
Reply-To: rmk@rmkhome.UUCP (Rick Kelly)

In article <1992Dec7.204946.10741@thelema.uucp> STella@thelema.uucp (STella) writes:
>In article <3DEC92.19143989@vax.clarku.edu> wcox@vax.clarku.edu writes:
>>In a previous article, n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) wrote:
>>>wcox@vax.clarku.edu writes:
>>>>beyond anything reasonable at all.  And yes, car-jacking would occur.  
>>>>They'd 
>>>>just shoot you first and then take your car.
>>> 
>>>Doesn't seem to happen in Wa, a CCW state. 
>>
>>Does seem to happen in Boston, though, where my dear mother was witness to a 
>>guy blasting a Boston cabbie to death with a rather large handgun in the 
>>middle of the street.  Now, whether or not he deserved it is another matter 
>>entirely....
>
>Yes, but think about what you just said.  You seem to have agreed with
>James -- did you notice that?
>
>In Massachusetts, as of the time I left there, if someone had come
>into my house, pulled multi-inches of steel, and I had pulled
>Appropriate Technology out of hiding after the perp CUT me, and put
>holes in him, _I_, not the dood with the knife, would have been facing
>a year-long mandatory sentence.

If you left Mass at some time shortly after wjr left CRDS, then you would
have been justified if you backed yourself into a corner before you blew
the perps brains out.

If you had used a shotgun instead of a handgun, then there would have been
even less paperwork.

>In such states, folks who are already doing things that could cause
>them a high likelihood of doing time if they're caught are more likely
>to be willing to take the risk of using a weapon; people somewhat like
>me, who were not at risk of incarceration are told by the state that
>they should roll over and get raped, because using appropriate
>occidental fighting arts (blam, blam) automatically qualifies you for
>jail time.

With the recent rise in court orders related to domestic violence, it
is now somewhat easier for a women to get a protection of life and
property handgun license.

>But what can you expect, that is the state of Teddy Kennedy, after
>all....
>
>(I'm told this law has been modified as a result of court cases, and
>that a woman who uses her otherwise legal handgun to defend against an
>armed rapist, the householder who draws on a bungler and suggests sie
>depart post-haste, will now NOT receive an automatic year in jail.  Is
>this true?)

Yes.

>If you see this in asb, please let me know?  I'm still suspicious I'm
>not getting out through THIS group, and it may be time to find a new
>job and feed.

Yes!  I saw this in asb.

What are the California rules on handgun ownership these days?

-- 

Rick Kelly	rmk@rmkhome.UUCP	unixland!rmkhome!rmk	rmk@frog.UUCP
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: lambert@spectrum.cs.unsw.oz.au (Tim Lambert)
Subject: Re: Andy Freeman vs Random House Dictionary (was: Nabbing a car thief)
Organization: CS&E, Uni of NSW, Australia
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 17:03:20 GMT

>>>>> On 15 Dec 92 00:11:17 GMT, kennejs@a.cs.okstate.edu (KENNEDY JAMES SCOT) said:

> Somebody (I lost track of who) writes:
>>> Now, Tim, what exactly is a "Saturday Night Special"?...
>                   ^^^^^^^
> Tim replies:
>>a cheap, small caliber handgun that is easily obtainable

> So, the problem with this definition:
> I bought a S&W .38 special revolver for $150.  Handed the guy a check
> (didn't even have to use cash) and he handed me the gun.  He had a dozen
> more just like it.  It fits the above definition just fine.
> However, I don't think most people would call it a "Sat. Night Special"!
> Why?  It's a target revolver!  It has adjustable sights, extra long 8 3/8 "
> barrel, and is a well built, quality, nice looking, super accurate gun.

Cheap also means "low quality".  Since when is .38 small calibre?

You seem to have an opinion on what a SNS is.  Let's see your
definition.

> It just seems to me that the definition is far too sloppy to be very
> meaningful.  The above defintion seems to apply to nifty target guns as
> well as crappy homebuilt guns.  You know, pieces of water pipe taped to
> a board with a nail to fire the cartridge.

> So, Tim, what exactly is a "Saturday Night Special"?

No, it's your turn now.

Tim
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond)
Subject: Re: Crime and punishment (was Re: 20/20 to crucify FFL holders)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 92 06:17:10 GMT
Organization: Dixie Communications Public Access.  The Mouth of the South.
Keywords: FFL, criminals getting FFLs, HCI agenda
Distribution: na

ice@socrates.umd.edu (Fredrik Nyman) writes:

>Is this necessary?  A *lot* of moral "codes", while present in
>many (most?) religions aren't inherently religious, but rather plain,
>old, and increasingly rare good sense.

>When you teach someone not to kill, for example, you don't also have
>to say "because God says so"; there are *quite* a few other reasons.

I think it is necessary.  If you try to teach a kid not to kill
or not to steal or not to lie or to treat others as you would be
treated and when the kid asks "why" and you cannot give a reason, 
the kid is likely to ignore the advice.  If on the other hand, 
you teach the kid that these things are to be done because a 
supreme being has instructed it so and that you may burn in
hell if you don't obey, the kid has a reason to obey.  At least
it worked for me :-)  The kid, as s/he becomes an adult may
choose to change his worldview from what was taught him, but odds are
his basic moral underpinning that was originally hammered into
him will stick with him.

>I wonder, though, if our schools are up to the task of teaching basic
>human values like compassion and love for your fellow man.  After all,
>our schools (and what they teach) tend to mirror our society in
>general, and society's public figures, who so often are role models,
>rarely exhibit these human values.

Worse, are the teachers up to it?  After a couple of generations of 
multicultural, anything-goes, secular mind-mush, do we have the 
teachers with the moral underpinnings to do the job?  

John
-- 
John De Armond, WD4OQC               |Interested in high performance mobility?  
Performance Engineering Magazine(TM) | Interested in high tech and computers? 
Marietta, Ga                         | Send ur snail-mail address to 
jgd@dixie.com                        | perform@dixie.com for a free sample mag
Need Usenet public Access in Atlanta?  Write Me for info on Dixie.com.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: ss6349@tyr.albany.edu (Steven H. Schimmrich)
Subject: Re: Mail Order SKS
Originator: ss6349@tyr.albany.edu
Organization: Department of Geological Sciences, SUNY at Albany
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 17:32:56 GMT


# I just heard something on the news about some kid (I use the term 
# generically; I don't know his age, but I think he's a college student)
# who supposedly bought an SKS through the mail and used it to shoot up
# a bunch of people.
#
# HUH?  I thought you couldn't buy modern firearms through the mail?
# Anybody know anything about this?

   The first report I heard on CNN Headline News that afternoon distinctly
said that the guy used a "mail-order automatic assault rifle!"  Yea, right!
Later reports simply said a "semi-automatic rifle."
   Just wait... this private college is liberal with a capital L.  One or
two days from now there's going to be a big anti-gun movement starting
there.  Their answer will be to abolish all firearms (that .22 rifle has a
clip which holds 7 rounds therefore it's an assault rifle and should be
banned!).
   Watch the guy who did this just get a mental hospital rather than any
prison time also.

--
Steven H. Schimmrich     Department of Geological Sciences         "Non semper
ss6349@csc.albany.edu    State University of New York at Albany   ea sunt quae
ss6349@albnyvms.bitnet   Albany, New York 12222  (518) 442-4466   videntur."

Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: robin2@garfield.cs.mun.ca (Robin Collier)
Subject: Re: The basic problem with anti-gun nuts.
Organization: CS Dept., Memorial University of Newfoundland
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 00:01:00 GMT

Boy, you really seem to think its everyones God given right to bear arms
Well, I guess I can't really associate with some of the problems you
may have in your neck of the woods, since not even the police carry guns
here.  But mind you, they can do some real damage with a baton.  
Thats Right!  The Royal Newfoundland Constabulary is the only police
force in North America that doesn't carry arms.

Robin Collier
robin2@garfield.cs.mun.ca

Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: mjp@austin.ibm.com  (Michael J. Phelps)
Subject: Re: Help on NEJM info
Originator: mjp@bwa.kgn.ibm.com
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 11:54:53 GMT
Reply-To: mjp@vnet.ibm.com (Michael J. Phelps)
Organization: IBM Kingston NY


Chris.. if you haven't already, check archive.cis.ohio-state.edu
 in pub/firearms/politics/rkba/nejm-info and guns+sputter..

-- 
Michael Phelps, (external) mjp@vnet.ibm.com ..
                (internal) mjp@bwa.kgn.ibm.com .. mjp at kgnvmy         
 (and last but not least a disclaimer)  These opinions are mine..       
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: betz@gozer.idbsu.edu (Andrew Betz)
Subject: Re: 20/20 to crucify FFL holders
Keywords: FFL, criminals getting FFLs, HCI agenda
Organization: SigSauer Fan Club 
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 17:57:06 GMT

In article <1992Dec15.140246.15012@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> bobd@marune.acs.ohio-state.edu (Bob DeBula) writes:
>Incidently, did anyone else happen to notice that one of the "evil
>dealers" they cameoed seemed to have only the deadly Colt black powder assault
>revolvers in evidence?
>
yah, i saw that part.  i'm sure they would have preferred a few
ak-47s instead :-(

>be a damning with faint praise effort at most. Also, they never mentioned
>*why* the ATF had become the subject of Congressional scrutiny. I also
>thought (at one point anyway) that applying for an FFL automatically
>lead to an FBI background check?
>
i noticed this, too.  why not tell the story of lawmaster as a recent
example of the BATF's storm trooper tactics?  and they sure didn't
mention any of the negative outcomes for violating paperwork requirements.
they also "neglected" to mention the "spot inspection" clause FFLs
are subject to.  if the BATF storm troopers don't enforce the rules
on the books, what's the gain of adding more rules?

another gigantic hole from abc: if sarah brady and the gungrabbers
want a waiting period for a background check, then aren't they just
a little concerned about the errors (that they so lovingly documented)
in the NCIC?  am i missing something here???

drew
--
betz@gozer.idbsu.edu
*** brought into your terminal from the free state of idaho ***
"Now I am become death, destroyer of worlds." - Oppenheimer
From: jmd@cube.handheld.com (Jim De Arras)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Guns, Registration, and the Second Amendment
Date: 14 Dec 1992 02:49:22 GMT
Organization: Hand Held Products, Inc.
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: dale.handheld.com

In article <iN2NVB2w164w@upchrch.UUCP> joel@upchrch.UUCP (Joel Upchurch  )  
writes:
[...]
> 
> BTW, if there is a right to privacy, where does the Census department
> get off threatening to throw me in jail if I don't tell them how many
> bathrooms I have in my house? It seems to me that name, address, date
> and place of birth are pretty much the limits of their constitutional
> authority.
> 

Strange, I filled out a lot of my form, "Not Applicable", including the field  
for race, since I believe all efforts at counting by race leads only to racism.
I filled out only the fields needed for the census to meet its constitutional  
requirements.  There was no reprisal, or even comment from them.

> 
> (If your mail bounces use the address below.)
> Joel Upchurch/Upchurch Computer Consulting/718 Galsworthy/Orlando, FL 32809
> joel@peora.ccur.com {uiucuxc,hoptoad,petsd,ucf-cs}!peora!joel (407) 859-0982

Jim

--
Jim De Arras            | The opinions expressed herein are
Hand Held Products, Inc.| not necessarily those of Hand 
804.784.3090 voice      | Held Products, Inc., and may not 
804.784.3147 FAX        | even be mine. Use at your own risk
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center
Date: Wednesday, 16 Dec 1992 14:14:13 EST
From: <JCEHC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: RE: Mail Order SKS

   According the piece in today's New York Times he purchased the SKS
on Monday in Pittsfield, Mass.  The Times calls the SKS a modified
AK 47 and labels the gun an "Assault rifle" several times in the article.

  My questions is did this young man comply with Massachusett's rather
strict firearms laws?  Did he have a Mass FID?  If not, how did he
legally purchase the gun?

Michael Gordon
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA