HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bzs@ussr.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: War's a funny thing
Organization: The World
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 00:39:11 GMT


From: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
>I've been waiting for this opening.  When the war in the Gulf was coming to a
>close with an incomplete conclusion, in my mind and the minds of almost
>everyone, all I could think of is how the Liberals would have screamed if we
>went in and "finished the job" instead of sticking with the stated purpose of
>our involvement - the driving out of Saddam's forces.
>
>Can you imagine?  Suppose we stayed for another week or three and sent home a
>few hundred body bags for the effort - can you hear the howls?

It seems to be a new fetish of the right that, lacking specific
complaints, they invent fantasy scenarios in which they can play their
bogey-men, the liberals, in as the heavies.

It's rather pathetic.

No, I have no idea how liberals might have responded to "finishing the
job" in Iraq.

I do sense, however, this dreaded authoritarian fear of any criticism,
however.

>BTW:  It makes my skin crawl to think that the United Nations sets the policy
>for our country.  We shouldn't need U.N. permission to do what we think is the
>right thing.  None of our actions need to be sanctioned by any other country
>or world body.  Subordinating our sovereignty to any other entity is
>tantamount to tyranny.

Oh, now there's a view which should promote peace and understanding in
this world.

Let's see, what have we got here:

1. Fantasy bogey-men played by liberals in hypothetical scenarios.

2. A priori anxiety about anyone daring to criticize or speak out on a
different view point.

3. Neurotic terror of cooperation as a symbol of personal impotence.

Gee, you must be a blast to work with...


--
        -Barry Shein

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From: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
Newsgroups: ne.politics
Subject: Re: Sex ed in school
Date: 15 Aug 92 14:49:38 GMT
Reply-To: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
Organization: The Business Card (BBS), Lawrence, MA - Data: 508-682-5329

gordon@lugh.think.com (gordon linoff) writes:

> The reference you are making is probably to my pointing out
> that the infant mortality rate for black children in Boston
> is three times higher than that for whites.

So what?  I don't mean to sound unsympathetic because I'm not - I'm only 
opposed to what I _assume_ you want to do about it; run around spending 
oodles of tax dollars on pre-natal care for mothers of any color.

> Despite you all-condemning bible, I also do not believe the
> "sins of the father [or mother]" should be borne on the
> children.  A mother who cannot afford adequate medical care
> should not be condemning her child to death (once born).  It
> is sad when babies die in their first year because of lack
> of access to medical care.  It is shameful when that happens
> in the United States.

No, a mother who cannot afford adequate medical care should not be having 
babies.  Yes, it is sad that these babies die in their first year because 
the mother can't afford them just as it's sad that elderly parents can't 
all live to be 100 because their children can't afford the Herculean 
efforts to make it so.

Life's a bitch, Mr. Linoff.  We don't live in a perfect world where 
everything lives for as long as it likes.  We do the best we can with 
limited resources.  The best thing we can do is try to minimize the 
occurance of Bad Things and let the chips fall where they may.  When 
people begin to realize that there _are_ MAJOR consequences for some 
actions, they'll more vigorously tend to the business of minimizing their 
exposure because there won't be some magical mystery life net to help.

Like cigarette smoking.  We all know it's bad for us but some of us do it 
anyway.  When they die from it, it's like hitting the lottery for some 
families as the courts allow suits against the manufacturers to go 
forward!  Man!

Have a baby?  BINGO!  Free care, welfare...  and you want us to pay for 
each kid without flinching because you have a warm and touchy/feely 
mindset?

                                - - - Murph

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Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: bzs@ussr.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Foreign policy musings
Organization: The World
	<BZS.92Aug18194424@ussr.std.com>
	<JTURNER.92Aug21203351@splinter.coe.northeastern.edu>
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 04:50:20 GMT


From: jturner@splinter.coe.northeastern.edu (Jeffrey Turner)
>> Actually, I think the most under-rated and one of the best reasons for
>> our reaction to Iraq was Hussein's taking of 400 American hostages
>> (er, guests.)
>
>	Except that the decision to go to war was made long
>before the hostages were taken.

Could you please cite a source for this claim.

I mean something other than it's something you want to believe.

>It may even have been made
>before the Iraqi invasion (at least the decision to go to war
>SOMEPLACE).

Hmm, last message you were claiming that the US invited (your word)
the Iraqis to invade and indicated we'd offer no resistance.

Not sure you can have it both ways.

>And the hostages were all let go long before the
>US invasion of Iraq.

True.

Some day if someone takes your family hostage for a few months and
then lets them go let's see if you decide to let bygones be bygones...


--
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
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From: usenet@transfer.stratus.com (Mr. Network News)
Newsgroups: ne.politics
Subject: Re: In politics, why ask why?
Date: 17 Aug 92 22:19:08 GMT
Reply-To: Dave_Wetzel@vos.stratus.com
Organization: Dave_Wetzel

In article <1992Aug17.161042.21616@kronos.com> richb@kronos.com (Rich 
Braun) writes:

> But we seem not to have learned our lesson.  Haiti and Bosnia-
> Hersegovinia (does anyone *really* know how to spell or say that
> name?) are living examples of the failure of economic sanctions.

Actually these are two very different examples.  Economic sanctions will 
not work in B-H (won't even try to spell it) because the reason for the 
fighting is ethnic.  In Kuwait it was economic.

Sadam invaded Kuwait because he wanted to default on the loans the Kuwaiti 
government extended to him during the Iran-Iraq war.  The Kuwaiti 
government wouldn't let him alter the conditions of the loans and so Sadam 
invaded.  All the nonsense about re-uniting Iraq was window-dressing.

I do agree there are times when economic sanctions aren't enough but this 
isn't a direct comparision.

--------------
Dave_Wetzel@vos.stratus.com
Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: cmr@world.std.com (Charles M Richmond)
Subject: Re: Hypocrasy test: (was Re: Abortion: What does God say?)
Organization: Integrated International Systems Corp. One Longfellow Place, Suite 3309, Boston, Ma.
Distribution: ne
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 09:16:24 GMT

dlw@odi.com (Dan Weinreb) writes:

>In article <Bt813B.E25@world.std.com> cmr@world.std.com (Charles M Richmond) writes:


>>   You really should research your facts better. 

>>				   If you did your research, you would
>>   find that there are a number of countries (including the 2 that I have
>>   discussed) that have codified discrimination. I can not supply by myself
>>   the missing knowlege. 

>In other words you don't know what you're talking about.  Maybe you
>should research your own facts before you tell others to do so.


As I have demonstrated in my posts on the subject , my research in 
this area is fairly extensive. Aside from readings of history (which
you really should try!) I have traveled fairly extensively , having
lived in several European countries for a number years , having lived
in Asia Minor for a couple of years , having visited Japan 4 times
this year so far , having traveled in a score of countries (no I do
not mean package tours)... I am knowlegeable enough to at least have
some grasp of what there is still to be learned. A quick count shows
that I have at least 28 books either about Japan or in Japanese ,although
most of the one's in Japanese are not important works, but are fiction
that I am using in my study of the language. 

The reason that I can not supply your missing knowlege , is that the
available resources (bandwidth and time) are not sufficient. 

So Dan;
  Here is the challenge. Go read about the discrimination in Japan,
including institutionalized slavery (forced labor and the actual
sale of persons), the discrimination against Gaijin in general and
against subject peoples as a separate area of study. If you can't
find the energy to go to a library or a book store, at least spend 
some time reading the last few months of soc.culture.japan. 


In any case the example that you present, amply proves my point about
the "fad crowd". The imbalance of your knowlege is precisely the point
that I was making originally.

Charlie
-- 
*****************************************************************************
*  Charles Richmond 	Integrated International Systems Corporation        *
*  cmr@world.std.com	(Temporary) cmr@chiechan.mro4.dec.com		    *
*  Specializing in UNIX, X, Image Processing, and Communications.           *
Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: dlw@odi.com (Dan Weinreb)
Subject: TV channels
Reply-To: dlw@odi.com
Organization: Object Design, Inc.
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 22:25:22 GMT

In article <1992Aug19.175411.15863@kronos.com> richb@kronos.com (Rich Braun) writes:

   It's too bad we can't put this genie back into the bottle and get kids
   like Larry's to get together for mutual interaction other than sitting
   in front of the boob tube.

I've read this kind of argument before, sometimes from people who
identify themselves as "communitarians", but it has never sounded
right to me.  Are we really better off with fewer TV channels?  Is
less choice such a good thing?  Enforcing heterogeneity by restricting
options doesn't seem very consonant with some of your other positions.
From: tarl@sw.stratus.com (Tarl Neustaedter)
Newsgroups: ne.politics
Subject: Re: Give 'em a Right then a Left
Date: 14 Aug 92 17:10:31 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

In article <2379@mitech.com>, gjc@mitech.com (George J. Carrette) writes:
> Why is it that the proportion of engineering and science degrees
> going to u.s. citizens has declined so much in the last 20 years?

Because americans know where the money is. They are going into Law,
Business Management and Medicine. The number of MBAs out there is
truly frightening. Only second to the fright caused by the number
of lawyers running around without leashes.

> Could it be that in the USA the relative value of this education
> has declined?

Relative to what? The return-on-investment to an individual in the US for
an engineering education is poor compared to the above-mentioned fields.

Relative to what is available outside the U.S.? Unlikely, given the
number of foreign students who come to the U.S. for engineering degrees.
Relative to what used to be available? Well, the grass was always greener.
-- 
         Tarl Neustaedter	tarl@sw.stratus.com
         Marlboro, Mass.	Stratus Computer
Disclaimer: My employer is not responsible for my opinions.
Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: bzs@ussr.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Bearing arms: our first line of defense
Organization: The World
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 03:38:40 GMT


From: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
>Let's talk about gun control.  It's a bad idea.  A well-armed citizenry
>prevents abuse by the government.  When the Liberals start taking all our
>guns, you can be justified in fearing the government.

And when you realize that it's not just your bogey-men, "the
liberals", perhaps you'll get somewhere on this issue.

--
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
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Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: richb@kronos.com (Rich Braun)
Subject: Re: I'm in a gay mood!
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 17:42:30 GMT
Organization: Kronos Inc. / Waltham, MA
Disclaimer: This posting is a personal opinion and not that of Kronos Inc.

bzs@ussr.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:
>I mean, it seems
>to be *your* idea that we now have to distinguish between The Real
>Murph Citizens (heterosexual, but not too often, missionary position,
>etc) and those who are to be sent to the camps.

Germany of the 1930s, as I interpret some reading I did many years
ago, had a lively gay rights movement comparable to that of modern
America.  Hitler rose to power without really giving much hint of the
extremes he would go to against his enemies, but when he decided to
quash the gay movement, he pulled it off in 30 days.  Those who'd made
public statements or participated in organized groups were carted off,
never to be seen again.  If you think about it, this would not really
be all that difficult to pull off against any organized minority
movement:  simply put a couple of dozen of the most outspoken people
into prison, and that'll shut just about everyone else up.

Consider for a moment a more recent example:  The U.S. government
singled out one person from each of about a dozen metropolitan areas
in 1982 to put forth as an "example" of what can happen to dissidents
who refused to register for Selective Service.  Between that initiative
(which jailed the roommate of one of my nearby Cambridge friends at the
time) and the crackdown on student loans, the campaign against Selective
Service was immediately hushed.

The USA is much more progressive than many nations when it comes to
discrimination, but deep down underneath I fear we could revert to the
kind of conditions we see in other ethnically diverse countries in the
event of a major collapse or takeover of our shaky government.  Given
the lack of participation in politics, our government is remarkably
weak and unable to represent the views of its citizenry, much less to
establish & enforce a reasonable majority consensus.

-rich
From: dbrooks@osf.org (David Brooks)
Subject: Re: Sex ed in school
Followup-To: ne.politics
Reply-To: dbrooks@osf.org (David Brooks)
Organization: Open Software Foundation
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 03:57:28 GMT

(to address what bits of Brian are left unshredded:)

murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy) writes:
>That, of course, is extreme.  As a voter in a majority, I'd not cast a 
>vote in favor of funding sex education in school, universal medical care, 
						   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>foster care subsidies, or any other program that wouldn't be in the (I 
>know you were waiting for this) "Ozzie and Harriet" mold of "family 
>values."

That one doesn't really belong with the rest.  I suspect it's just Brian
lumping his favorite peeves together.  For the record, I grew up in the
50's in a country with a presumption of "Family Values" identical with
those in the US, and universal medical care.  Just about everybody had a
Family Doctor, which fit in well with the model.

>The schools, the government, is taking the place of the family and that's 
>not a good thing.  It has now gone so far as to teach our children about 
>sex - that wonderful experience that used to be reserved for our parents 
>to teach.

Reminds me of a Planned Parenthood spokeslady I heard a while ago,
responding to the argument that sex, love, and self-protection, should be
taught in the caring environment of the home... "I totally agree!  I think
it's a great idea!  But, until it starts to happen, can we *please* have
sex education in the schools?"  Brian, it *doesn't happen*.  How are you
going to make it happen?

Again, I grew up into a society embarassed to talk about sex, and it was
particularly difficult between parents and children.  Yes, this is the
Family Values society we are all so nostalgic about.  And I've inherited
that difficulty.  I am *very grateful* that the schools now teach my
children in such frank detail about the subject and, knowing that, I can
now talk to my daughter about her sexuality.

I suspect that, when I finally give birth to grandchildren, their parents
will be able to talk to them much more freely.  Yes, thanks to sex ed in
the schools we ensure Family Values for the next generation.

>minimize these conditions is the correct answer.  The Right will suggest 
>we remove sex education from school, we not distribute condoms therein, 
>and that we leave the teaching of morals where it more properly belongs - 
>within the environment of a caring, loving family - which family ideally 
>consists of two parents of the opposite sex, thank you.

If all we do is leave it, it will not happen.
-- 
David Brooks					dbrooks@osf.org
Open Software Foundation			uunet!osf.org!dbrooks
Five more months!  Five more months!
Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: bzs@ussr.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Sex ed in school
Followup-To: ne.politics
Organization: The World
	<BZS.92Aug13021630@ussr.std.com> <2388@mitech.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 23:46:39 GMT


From: gjc@mitech.com (George J. Carrette) [responding to moi]
>> But courts and lawyers (some of the slimiest bastards also) and judges
>> trying to solve family problems?
>
>How do you like the idea of a lawyer actually TAKING A CHILD away
>from a parent and adopting the child himself?

Well, hmm, I doubt it's his capacity as a lawyer that's particularly
allowing this, other than perhaps he gets free legal help to pull it
off.

Personally I'd be against it, put the kid in a more wholesome
environment, like perhaps a crack house (my love for lawyers drips
thru.)

>> And, no, I've never been personally involved in such a thing.
>
>Well, get to it. Get married, have some kids, and then at
>least you will be putting yourself at risk!

gulp.

>> I don't know how to cure it though.
>
>How about a system of family courts that don't require lawyers?
>Kind of a combination of arbitration and small claims?

I dunno. How about requiring (as much as possible) friends and family
to also attend these arbitration sessions?

Maybe one of them can end it all by giving the appropriate party a
good smack in the back of the head.


--
        -Barry Shein

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Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: campbell@redsox.bsw.com (Larry Campbell)
Subject: Re: Sex ed in school (WHY JONNY CAN'T READ MUSIC)
Organization: The Boston Software Works, Inc.
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 04:14:02 GMT


In article <1992Aug18.225754.24011@odi.com>, dlw@odi.com (Dan Weinreb) writes:
> In article <1992Aug18.033915.4301@redsox.bsw.com> campbell@redsox.bsw.com (Larry Campbell) writes:
> 
>    It is no accident that the decline in SAT scores correlates
>    almost exactly with the enormous increase in TV watching (lagging
>    by the ten to fifteen years between the early stages of video
>    hypnosis, before school age, and the time students take the SATs.)
> 
> So you have fit your theory to the data.  That doesn't prove anything.
> It would be nice if someone could do a controlled experiment, but it's
> hard to imagine how that would be possible.

Agreed, it'll never be possible to prove decisively the correlation.

>    We have no television in our home.  I have never owned one.
>    My older son, who is now ten, is a voracious reader, and reads
>    well above his grade level.  Would he be reading as much, or as
>    well, if we had a TV?  I doubt it.
> 
> I watched a lot of TV when I was growing up.  I also read a lot of
> books and got a great education.  I do think that restricting quantity
> and type of TV viewing is a reasonable choice for a parent to make,
> but I don't think there's good reason to believe that the cause and
> effect is as simple as you describe.

No, TV is a symptom as well as a cause.  TV (as practiced in the USA)
both mirrors and encourages all of the things that are wrong with our
society:  vapid mindless sensation-seeking, a quest for instant
gratification, anti-intellectualism, an aversion to work, over-emphasis
on sexual gratification, etc.

TV doesn't cause these things by itself.  It does, however, amplify them.
Are there benefits to TV?  Very few, very slight.  The disadvantages far
outweigh them.
-- 
Larry Campbell             The Boston Software Works, Inc., 120 Fulton Street
campbell@redsox.bsw.com    Boston, Massachusetts 02109 (USA)
From: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
Newsgroups: ne.politics
Subject: Re: Foreign policy musings
Date: 21 Aug 92 17:28:28 GMT
Reply-To: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
Organization: The Business Card (BBS), Lawrence, MA - Data: 508-682-5329

dlw@odi.com (Dan Weinreb) writes:

> In article <54PoPB1w165w@buscard.fidonet.org> murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Bria
> 
>    The price for the former is fantastic and is why we went to war.  I say th
>    is no better reason than economics or national security to go to war.  Ide
>    run a poor third.
> 
> So if another Hitler arises and starts gassing millions of people to death,
> we'll just all turn to good old Murph, who'll tell us that we should just
> ignore it and get back to our golf game.  Golly, it's nice to know such
> comforting people.

Heh!  Touche'.  I never said ideals had no place in a decision to go to war,
just that it is a third consideration.  Hitler, of course, was bent on world
domination where Yugoslavia is engaged in a civil war.  There _is_ a
difference.

It appears that the U.S., once again, is the only nation doing anything
substantive about it.  Is this right?  Do the European countries have any
responsibility to do anything about the situation, if anything can be done?

                                      - - - Murph

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From: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
Newsgroups: ne.politics
Subject: Re: Sex ed in school (WHY JONNY CAN'T READ MUSIC)
Date: 15 Aug 92 14:25:29 GMT
Reply-To: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
Organization: The Business Card (BBS), Lawrence, MA - Data: 508-682-5329

gjc@mitech.com (George J. Carrette) writes:

> Music *is* literature!
> 
> Music is also language.

Music is also a Very Nice Thing.  So's home beer brewing.
That doesn't mean that either should be taught in school at the expense 
of reading, writing, and 'rithmetic.

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