From: John_Graves@cellbio.duke.edu
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Hot bi babes and masculinity...
Date: 12 Aug 92 14:58:15 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Duke University Medical Center

In article <1992Aug12.084649.18780@nwnexus.WA.COM> elf@halcyon.com (Elf
Sternberg) writes:
>
>>In article <4434@news.duke.edu> John_Graves@cellbio.duke.edu writes:
>
>>>How could we call your manhood into question?  You're still in charge.
>>>The patriarchy lives!  :-)

Notice the FACE.  I'm making a remark about your language, not your actions,
since I don't think your action is what is reflected in your choice of
language.

>
>>>Take a look at what you said.  
>
>>>"I'm willing to give them a space of their own without interference."
>
>   Hold it right there, John.
>
>   Let's get two things straight here.  ONE: This is _my_ house as much
>as it is my wife's.  The fact that, at four o'clock in the morning,
>they're sitting on the bed I sleep in, and I have classes the next day,
>should qualify as my "giving them a space of their own without
>interference."  

I would say that you may be agreeing to their use of the space and giving up
your use of it in that case.  THe issue is less with the word giving but with
words "willing to give them a space of their own without interference." Is this
something you have any choice in.  Granted you could refuse to leave the bed
(previously unmentioned) but they could find another space while you sleep.  So
yes you could give them the use of your space in the bed, but can you give them
space of their own.  If it is their own space you cannot give it.  Get it?

It has NOTHING to do with a patriarchial attitude; it
>has to do with my personal respect for their privacy versus my needs as
>a college student and my Setdamned property rights.

Setdamned?

>   TWO: My wife "is willing to give [me] a space of my own without
>interference."  She is _just_ as tolerant (remember that word) of me
>and my boyfriend indulging ourselves in _our_ bed.

She might not use these same words without being prompted.

>>>Only a male patriarch can give a woman a space of her own, even in a
>>>shared house.
>
>   Bullshit; this is an equal partnership.  She gives me a space of my
>own as much as I give her one of her own.  She is as generous (Heinlein
>buzzword alert!  See "altruism") with her _tolerance_ as I am with
>mine.  _That's_ how my marriage works.

Or could it be that you respect each others needs for a space of your own?  



I expect that your language doesn't reflect the actuality of your marriage.  It
sounds like a great marriage.

>   Your sentence there, in fact, IMPLIES that you beleive women to be
>powerless. 

I certainly believe women have less power than men in our culture which is
still patriarchal in most respects.  Therefore there is a need for you who are
breaking the rules of patriarchy to remember the power of words to negate your
actions.   

 You have taken my comments and turned them around to
>illustrate the powerlessness of a woman you've never met, and have no
>clue towards the nature of.  My wife is _not_ powerless; your assuming
>she is, and rushing to decry me at her defense, only illustrates your
>perception of yourself as a Defender of the Powerless Female, a
>pseudo-new-age-male attitude that is just as patriarchial and even more
>insiduously destructive then the attitude you incorrectly accuse me of
>having.

Sure.  

I neither think you're wife is powerless, nor that she needs defending.  I do
believe that the common controlling characteristic of patriarchies and other
repressive systems is that one party can give to the other oppressed party
basic rights, such as the right to privacy.  In a similar vein, a husband
cannot give a wife permission to have an abortion if it is not a patriarchy.  

John