HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mueller@b30news.b30.ingr.com ( Phil Mueller )
Subject: Re: Inappropriate rejections in science  (was: Truzzi Lecture)
Organization: Intergraph
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 22:07:21 GMT

In article <1993Jan10.234750.25011@blaze.cs.jhu.edu> arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:
>In article <104225@netnews.upenn.edu> weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener) writes:
>>The chemical reactivity of the heavier noble (fka inert) gases is
>>something that anyone could have detected for decades, but didn't
>>since everyone knew it simply could not happen.
>
>I recall Isaac Asimov mentioning in an essay (vague reference there :-).  It

It was "Welcome, Stranger!", xenon being the Greek word for stranger. 
I forget which essay collection it was in.  The point was that flourine was
very dangerous, and chemists didn't know how to handle it until WW2.  It
was then used for Uraninium hexaflouride, and we all know why that was
important.


-- 
Phil Mueller    mueller@b30news.b30.ingr.com
"Oh I get it.  This .signature is even stupider than I thought."
Joel, Time of the Apes (??)
Xref: sparky sci.philosophy.meta:2951 sci.philosophy.tech:4716
From: pmsc13sg@UMASSD.EDU (Stephen Grossman)
Newsgroups: sci.philosophy.meta,sci.philosophy.tech
Subject: Re: Schools, philosophy of science, epistemology
Date: 10 Jan 93 01:34:53 GMT
Reply-To: pmsc13sg@UMASSD.EDU
Organization: UMASS DARTMOUTH, NO. DARTMOUTH, MA.

>
>  I am currently an undergraduate student of psychology and am
>interested in exporing the philosophical underpinings of this field
>(and epistemology in general).  For this reason I am looking for
>schools, or people, who have developed an expertise in this area.
>
>  I would appreciate hearing of any that you might know about.
>Thanks.
>
>Colin Rowat


	[meta, #1291, Jan7]
	The mainstream of contemporary philosophy is profoundly nihilist and 
anti-system despite its technical sophistication and appearance of rationality. 
The psychological application of this witch's brew can be found in the culture 
of Weimar Germany or in the "lifestyle" of any drug addict. 
	An extreme, radical alternative is Aristotle, the inventor or 
discoverer of rational system, logic, science, and the science of psychology!  
A neo-Aristotelian approach is found in Ayn Rand's philosophy of Objectivism 
as well as its application to the philosophy and science of psychology in 
Nathaniel Branden's _Psy. of Self-Esteem_. Check libraries or good bookstores. 
Second Renaissance Books (110 Copperwood Way, Oceanside, CA 92052) lists Rand's 
books and excellent related material in a catalog. The Objectivist-oriented 
Jefferson School (of Philosophy, Economics, & Psychology) has a lecture on 
Aristotle's psychology by a psychiatrist and former professor. Their brochure 
will come with the 2nd Ren. catalog. 
	Most philosophy departments are worthless but, I believe, Northwestern, 
Georgetown, and UTexas-Austin specialize in classical realism. There is also, I 
believe, a Univ. of Thomas Aquinas (or a similar name) in Texas.

________________________________________________________________________________
	"In that world, you'll be able to rise in the morning with the spirit
you had known in your childhood: that spirit of eagerness, adventure and cer-
tainty which comes from dealing with a rational universe."
                                                              AYN RAND
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stephen Grossman <PMSC13SG@UMASSD.EDU>
================================================================================
Newsgroups: sci.philosophy.meta
From: sasghm@theseus.unx.sas.com (Gary Merrill)
Subject: Re: Peter Breggin, _Toxic Psychiatry_ (Q)
Originator: sasghm@theseus.unx.sas.com
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 15:25:43 GMT
Organization: SAS Institute Inc.


In article <1993Jan4.195534.578@news.wesleyan.edu>, RGINZBERG@eagle.wesleyan.edu (Ruth Ginzberg) writes:
|> In <1993Jan4.183308.14646@news.eng.convex.com> cash@convex.com writes:
|> > In article <C0C46t.Hq4@unx.sas.com> sasghm@theseus.unx.sas.com (Gary Merrill) writes:
|> 
|> <Stuff about schizophrenia, depression, the disease model, defs of diseases,
|> etc. deleted.>
|> 
|> Gary Merrill & Peter Cash are both frequent contributers to the various
|> philosophy Usenet newsgroups.  You have raised some really fascinating &
|> important questions, but guess what, guys?  Your questions are philosophical
|> questions, not scientific questions. <surprise, surprise>

I don't (surprise?) buy this as a sharp distinction.  The questions I have
been raising are perhaps best described as *methodological* questions.

|> Now, as a sometimes-attendee of PSA (Philosophy of Science Association), I
|> totally understand the yearning to discuss philosophy of science questions with
|> practicing scientists.  As a sometimes-professor of philosophy of science, I
|> also know how often such discussions go over approximately like lead balloons.

Depends largely upon the scientists.  I would *not* characterize most of the
disputants in this thread on sci.med as "scientists" any more than I would
characterize myself (with my software engineering hat on) as a scientist.

I do highly recommend the Guze book (_Why Psychiatry is a Branch of Medicine_).
I *would* be willing to count this guy as a scientist.

|> This is because philosophy of science and scientific practice are fundamentally
|> different things, even though they may seem to have nearly the same subject
|> matter.  (For critiques of this separation, see Steve Fuller, SOCIAL
|> EPISTEMOLOGY; or my colleague, Joseph Rouse, KNOWLEDGE AND POWER; or Bruno
|> Latour: anything he's written; or Donna Haraway, PRIMATE VISIONS.)  There are
|> others;  the most serious critiques of the separation of philosophy of science
|> from scientific practice come from your buddies, the Continental philosophers. 
|> ;-) ;-) ;-)  <for those who don't read the philosophy newsgroups, this is
|> intended to be obviously sarcastic, because these 2 don't generally agree with
|> those folks at all>

Quite honestly, I can't imagine anyone who *would* deny that philosophy of science
is distinct from scientific practice.  This is not the same issue as whether a
question is a philosophical or scientific one.

|> At any rate, I am taking the liberty of redirecting followups to
|> sci.philosophy.meta, since Gary said he isn't going to read sci.med any more
|> anyway.

Didn't say that.  Just said I didn't want to play with those nasty boys any
more.

-- 
Gary H. Merrill  [Principal Systems Developer, C Compiler Development]
SAS Institute Inc. / SAS Campus Dr. / Cary, NC  27513 / (919) 677-8000
sasghm@theseus.unx.sas.com ... !mcnc!sas!sasghm
Newsgroups: sci.philosophy.meta
From: sschaff@roc.SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Stephen F. Schaffner)
Subject: Re: MINDWALK - An exercise in Passionate Thought
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 20:51:49 GMT


 In article <gaboy.725907423@well.sf.ca.us> gaboy@well.sf.ca.us (Gerald Boyack) writes:

 >The only interesting aspect is to try to figure out why so many
 >people clutch at any pseudo-science mysticism concocted by
 >Capra/Penrose ilk.

I've seen a couple of references to Penrose in this thread in connection with 
anti-scientism and pseudo-science.  I'm a little confused.  Isn't he still 
a scientist?  I haven't read much of his book (the New Mind one, that is), 
but I had the impression it was highly speculative and probably wrong, but 
not in the same league as Capra et al.  Am I missing something? 

-- 
Steve Schaffner        sschaff@unixhub.slac.stanford.edu
	The opinions expressed may be mine, and may not be those of SLAC, 
Stanford University, or the DOE.
Newsgroups: sci.philosophy.meta
From: andrew@rentec.com (Andrew Mullhaupt)
Newsgroups: sci.philosophy.meta
Subject: Re: Nehru jackets
Date: 11 Jan 93 03:49:38 GMT
Organization: Renaissance Technologies Corp., Setauket, NY.

>>In <something> somebody wrote:
>>
>>>         Just out of morbid curiosity, what's a Nehru jacket? Is this
>Stephen Grossman did not write this. I did.

Oh that's OK. I didn't write anything in this thread so far.

I once borrowed a deep purple paisley velvet Nehru jacket. Wildest
thing I ever wore. I'd buy one instantly if I ever saw one again. The one
fashion clothing item I actually think about as desirable in my life. Well
almost, now that I think about it I could do with a new fez...

Later,
Andrew Mullhaupt
Newsgroups: sci.philosophy.meta
From: pmsc13sg@UMASSD.EDU (Stephen Grossman)
Subject: Re: MINDWALK - An exercise in Passionate Thought
Reply-To: pmsc13sg@UMASSD.EDU
Organization: UMASS DARTMOUTH, NO. DARTMOUTH, MA.
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 21:46:42 GMT

In article <724909503snz@nomad23.demon.co.uk>, nick@nomad23.demon.co.uk (Nick 
Wood) writes:
>In article <1992Dec20.074839.12389@u.washington.edu> 
>joechip@hardy.u.washington.edu writes:

>>"Let's put Mother Nature on the rack, that she might reveal her treasures"
                                                                    Bacon

>And as emotion is beyond our capacity to express intelligently, as we
>are incapable of thought, but only of thinking - abstract symbol 
>manipulation, lets behave just like those (Facists) whom we so 
                                                   HATE! HATE! HATE!

>Thus it was that we in the west, lost our sense of the sacred, a denial
>of our own subjective experience. Capra is only an expression of this
>sense of loss - this 'finer sense' - intuition does not negate reason but
>is its source, and also source for all truely creative science. 

>This restoration of the objective value of subjectivity has consequences,
>one of which is the growing awareness of the totally irrational way we
>manage (or mismanage) the ecosphere - the position of brain (and body)
>dead technicians in our political/economic/military power structures will
>become increasingly intolerable.

SG	Humans are rational animals whose basic method of survival is reason. 
Wood, however, wants people to guide their actions with emotion. Emotion is 
not a tool of knowledge. All emotion-guided behavior can achieve is suffering 
and death. Ask any drug addict. As for fascism, it was an explicit rejection of 
Western civilization and reason. "We are now at he end of the Age of Reason. 
The intellect has grown autocratic, and has become a disease of life," said 
Hitler. And as for emotion, consider the passion in Greek tragedy or French 
romanticism vs. the living death symbolized by statues of the Buddha. Wood's 
"sense of the sacred" is merely his wishes made holy. An alternative philosophy 
to the nihilism, mysticism, and anti-system of contemporary thought and culture 
can be found in Ayn Rand's Objectivism. See alt.philosophy.objectivism.
________________________________________________________________________________
	"In that world, you'll be able to rise in the morning with the spirit
you had known in your childhood: that spirit of eagerness, adventure and cer-
tainty which comes from dealing with a rational universe."
                                                              AYN RAND
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stephen Grossman <PMSC13SG@UMASSD.EDU>
================================================================================
Newsgroups: sci.philosophy.meta
Subject: Re: Peter Breggin, _Toxic Psychiatry_ (Q)
From: RGINZBERG@eagle.wesleyan.edu (Ruth Ginzberg)
Date: 5 Jan 93 20:43:19 EDT
Distribution: world
Organization: Philosophy Dept., Wesleyan University
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.20In-Reply-To: sasghm@theseus.unx.sas.com's message of Tue, 5 Jan 1993 15:25:43 GMTLines: 9

I just noticed that the April, 1992 issue of the JOURNAL OF MEDICINE &
PHILOSOPHY was a special issue devoted to philosophical questions and
psychiatric diagnosis and treatment.  I haven't read it.  Have you?  Are any of
the articles any good?


------------------------
Ruth Ginzberg <rginzberg@eagle.wesleyan.edu>
Philosophy Department;Wesleyan University;USA
Newsgroups: sci.philosophy.meta
From: sasghm@theseus.unx.sas.com (Gary Merrill)
Subject: Re: How to Build a Person (book by John Pollock)
Originator: sasghm@theseus.unx.sas.com
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 21:33:43 GMT
Organization: SAS Institute Inc.
Keywords: strong ai


In article <Jan.6.15.54.24.1993.17441@ruhets.rutgers.edu>, farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Lorenzo Farris) writes:
|> In article <jampel.726346799@barney>, jampel@cs.city.ac.uk (Michael Jampel) writes:
|> :
|> :Token physicalism: mental states ARE physical states, i.e. thoughts
|> :are (can be reduced to) chemical interactions in the brain (and hence
|> :why not electrical interactions in a silicon-based machine).
|> :
|> :Agent materialism: 'agents' (or 'persons' ?) are physical objects
|> :i.e. 'souls' or 'minds' are physical (not metaphysical).
|> :
|> 
|> I haven't read the book, but regarding these theses: why are they
|> necessary for machine intelligence to be possible?
|> 
|> If one operates under the idea that some extra-physical
|> whatchamacallit comes in and inhabits an organic body, what's to say
|> that another whatchamacallit won't come in and inhabit an inorganic
|> machine of sufficient complexity?

This was a questions I used to put to my introductory philosophy
classes (at a Catholic university where there was a pronounced
inclination on the part of the student body to harbor at least
some residual belief in a "soul").  Almost universally the students
were were quite distressed at the possibility of a non-organic body
acquiring a soul, though they never could seem to formulate any
coherent reasons (philosophical, theological, or otherwise) why
this could not happen.  They simply held rather stubbornly to the
view that a "robot" wasn't a human and therefore ...  I routinely
accused them of racism in this regard (or speciesism, or whatever).
They weren't impressed.
-- 
Gary H. Merrill  [Principal Systems Developer, C Compiler Development]
SAS Institute Inc. / SAS Campus Dr. / Cary, NC  27513 / (919) 677-8000
sasghm@theseus.unx.sas.com ... !mcnc!sas!sasghm
Newsgroups: sci.philosophy.meta
From: coonstot@quads.uchicago.edu (charles orville onstott)
Subject: Re: MINDWALK - An exercise in Passionate Thought
Reply-To: coonstot@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 22:40:19 GMT

In article <1992Dec18.100323.1@kean.ucs.mun.ca> bill@kean.ucs.mun.ca (Bill Garland) writes:
>
>Mystics have been damaging society for a long time.

This is among one of the most ignorant statements I have read in 
a long time.  Would you care to specify what you mean by mysticism
and further in what way you find that it damages this or any other
society?  (This question in no way upholds anything written by Capra)


>|----------------------------------------------------------------------|
>| Bill Garland = bill@kean.ucs.mun.ca |Commercial : Send me your money.|
>|----------------------------------------------------------------------|

BCnya,
 Charles O. Onstott, III
-- 
Charles O. Onstott, III                         (coonstot@midway.uchicago.edu)
Graduate Student in Religion and the Human Sciences
The University of Chicago Divinity School
           "For [the study of] history, too, has its fashions."  (Anouilh)
From: mch@doc.ic.ac.uk (Mike C Holderness)
Newsgroups: sci.philosophy.meta
Subject: Nehru jackets (was: Mindwalking Buddhists, oh!)
Followup-To: sci.philosophy.meta
Date: 6 Jan 1993 00:34:32 -0000
Organization: c/o Dept Computing, Imperial College, University of London, UK.
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: swan.doc.ic.ac.uk

In <something> Stephen Grossman wrote:

>         Just out of morbid curiosity, what's a Nehru jacket? Is this
> some horror of the 60's (before my time), or am I that far out of tuch
> with eMpTV culture?

Haven't you read the literature at all, bozo? Just go to your nearest photo
library and order a print of Nehru! 

(whoops, wrong news-group....) Sort of a high-collared collarless jacket
 ... no... take a very thin-collared jacket, turn the collar up; make it
out of cheap but elegant material; remember that the point is you've just
complained (I paraphrase) "Keeping Mr Gandhi in the poverty to which he is
accustomed is costing me a fortune", and now you're trying to inherit 
Gandhiji's moral mantle while being a thoroughly modern Prime Minister of
India (your daughter will adopt his name in order to be elected your successor).Now, transpose said garment to the cover of _Sergeant Pepper_ (a record
released in 196x where (x>7) and (x<=9).

Isn't life complicated?

=mike=
.
>
Newsgroups: sci.philosophy.meta
From: sschaff@roc.SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Stephen F. Schaffner)
Subject: Re: MINDWALK - An exercise in Passionate Thought
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 20:45:35 GMT
From: farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Lorenzo Farris)
Newsgroups: sci.philosophy.meta
Subject: Re: How to Build a Person (book by John Pollock)
Keywords: strong ai
Date: 6 Jan 93 20:54:24 GMT
Followup-To: sci.philosophy.meta
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <jampel.726346799@barney>, jampel@cs.city.ac.uk (Michael Jampel) writes:
:
:Token physicalism: mental states ARE physical states, i.e. thoughts
:are (can be reduced to) chemical interactions in the brain (and hence
:why not electrical interactions in a silicon-based machine).
:
:Agent materialism: 'agents' (or 'persons' ?) are physical objects
:i.e. 'souls' or 'minds' are physical (not metaphysical).
:

I haven't read the book, but regarding these theses: why are they
necessary for machine intelligence to be possible?

If one operates under the idea that some extra-physical
whatchamacallit comes in and inhabits an organic body, what's to say
that another whatchamacallit won't come in and inhabit an inorganic
machine of sufficient complexity?

				-Lorenzo
-- 
Happiness is just a                     ******************************
remembrance away.                       *  Lorenzo Farris            *
                                        *  farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu *
                                        ******************************
Newsgroups: sci.philosophy.meta,sci.philosophy.tech
From: rreiner@nexus.yorku.ca (Richard Reiner)
Subject: Re: Schools, philosophy of science, epistemology
Organization: York University
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 23:06:56 GMT

pmsc13sg@UMASSD.EDU (Stephen Grossman) writes:

>	The mainstream of contemporary philosophy is profoundly nihilist
>and anti-system despite its technical sophistication and appearance of
>rationality.  The psychological application of this witch's brew can be
>found in the culture of Weimar Germany or in the "lifestyle" of any
>drug addict.
> ...Ayn Rand's philosophy of Objectivism...

Ah, the unsweet smell of a man in the grip of an ideology.  Please,
somebody, take out this trash.

.
.
.
.
.
.
.-- 
Richard Reiner..............rreiner@nexus.yorku.ca..............416-538-3947
From: farris@pion.rutgers.edu (Lorenzo Farris)
Newsgroups: sci.philosophy.meta
Subject: Re: Mysticism (was Re: MINDWALK etc)
Date: 7 Jan 93 18:34:31 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <1993Jan7.115546.1@kean.ucs.mun.ca>, bill@kean.ucs.mun.ca (Bill Garland) writes:
[all kinds of  stuff]

You have a rather broad and pejorative definition of the term mystic.

There have been plenty of abuses perpetrated by people of many
ideological stripes. Usually, the ideology is merely a cover for
motives of greed and envy. That does not reflect on the value of the
ideas themselves.

To put mysticism into a different context: a mystic is one who seeks a
personal experience of whatever there is beyond this physical realm.
That's a PERSONAL experience. Any attempt to share it makes it
something else. (By share, I include preaching at anybody.)

Crusaders were not mystics. Pedophilic monks are not mystics.
Certainly, within Christianity, the message of true mystics is pretty
well suppressed. And the number of mystics is really  quite small.

I think confusing religion and mysticism is a mistake, as they are at
best tangentially related. Mysticism does not equal new-age fluffy
bunny anti-tech politically correct touchy-feely channeling of
disembodied entities, either.

All the evidence you gave in your post talks about religious
hypocrites, not about mysticism.

			-Lorenzo
-- 
Happiness is just a                     ******************************
remembrance away.                       *  Lorenzo Farris            *
                                        *  farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu *
                                        ******************************
From: webb@vault.tsd.itg.ti.com (Rosemary Webb)
Newsgroups: sci.philosophy.meta
Subject: Re: Maps and territories
Date: 6 Jan 1993 14:42:21 GMT
Organization: Texas Instruments, Austin, Tx.
Distribution: inet
NNTP-Posting-Host: vault.tsd.itg.ti.com

An observation from a net newbie (so please keep your salt shaker handy):

This thread seems to be talking about two things at once: both the mental
maps and theories an individual uses to deal with the world (what is called 
by some "objective reality", AKA instances of Platonic Forms), and
how some people become attached to (identify with?) particular mental maps
and don't want to change theirs (or, in some instances, to admit that other
maps may exist and be valid).

On mental maps: These can be as diverse (and incompatible) as 
*  The strictly logical, scientific viewpoint of a research clinician who
   insists on "objective" cause/effect relations and who searches these
   out in all situations.
*  The mystic, prayerful behavior of a cloistered monk who spends all his
   time in worship and who assumes that all events are intended directly
   by a personal god.
*  Many positions in between.


 
Problems seem to arise when an individual for whatever reason becomes too
attached (identified with?) a particular mental map, and so won't admit that
the mental map may need adjustment.  Such attachment may be because the mental 
map has been divinely revealed, or because an individual has used the strategy
of identification with their own world view as a motivational technique to get
up and go into work every day.  (Such people tend to take their personal worth
from their work or their ideas rather than from some feeling of inherent worth.)


Rosemary Webb
webb@tsd.itg.ti.com
(Standard disclaimers apply.)