From: homebrew@lupulus.ssc.gov
Subject: HOMEBREW Digest #1011
Organization: The Internet
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 09:02:08 GMT


HOMEBREW Digest #1011		             Thu 12 November 1992


	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Swedish Nightmares!!!! (Marc de Jonge)
  CORN SUGAR (mnoble)
  Replacing crystal malt with toasted? (KARI NIKKANEN, DESIGN ENGINEER, TEL.
 (90) 511 7286)
  NA, Titans (Richard Foulk)
  Party Balls, Bionic Yeast (Dan Wood)
  Molasses Priming (Karl F. Bloss)
  Prepared Beer Mixes (Gene.Clevenger)
  Wyeast 1056 Problems (gcw)
  Sugar and brewing experiment (Rick Myers)
  BRF query (Randall Holt)
  need Andechs recipie (Michael Brumm - career juror!)
  Aluminum ("Spencer W. Thomas")
  Re:Diacetyl / Efficiency (korz)
  Re:Swedish Nightmare / Wyeast Bavarian Lager / Titans (korz)
  hop back, sparging (Mark Garti  mrgarti@xyplex.com)
  Lager experience (Bill Szymczak)
  breaking down kegs (jay marshall 283-5903)
  Re:  Homebrew Digest #1010 (November 11, 1992) (FSAC-FCD)
 <dward@PICA.ARMY.MIL>
  AGAR, GOD and STOUT (Jack Schmidling)
  Re: Swedish Nightmare (Phil Hultin)
  Dialysis vs Heating (Phil Hultin)
  RE:Swedish Nightmares!!!!! (CompuCom) <v-ccsl@microsoft.com>
  DC area brewpubs ("Joe McCauley")
  On Plates and Decoctions (Martin A. Lodahl)
  Pump for recirulcating hot wort (Josh Grosse)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 11:45:33 +0100
From: dejonge@geof.ruu.nl (Marc de Jonge)
Subject: Swedish Nightmares!!!!



In HBD #1010 Rick Zydenbos writes:
> I'm stuck in a non-brewers land full of watery lager and can't find the
> ingredients for a good Stout!!!
>
> Does anyone out there have any ideas for suitable alternatives??
> Anyone tried Cocoa or real chocolate??
> .....

Just some remarks on this:
 - I think chocolate malt is named after the colour, not the taste. Using
chocolate (or rather no-fat cocoa) in a stout is probably not the way
to go. (I'm not saying that it doesn't taste great, it's just not really
like a 'true-to-style' stout)

If you want real dark malt or (unmalted) barley, roasting it yourself
is a fairly simple operation. I often do this because I don't use it
often enough to bother buying kilos of the stuff.

For stouts I'd suggest roasting unmalted barley, though malt will probably
also do (I use roasted crystal malt in a favourite 'dubbel' variation).

The roasting is easiest in an oven:
 .Heat oven to 180-190C
 .spread out layer of grains (not more than a cm)
 .spray with a little water every 5 minutes or so
 .leave in oven for 30-60 minutes, depending on starting
 grains and desired colour (like dark chocolate for chocolate malt).
 .(reduce heat if the grains start to 'pop' this is not what you want)
 .leave outside oven to cool (and loose possible burnt smell).
 .store in (airtight) container.

You can also do this in a (thick bottom) frying-pan, but it requires some
practice and a lot more attention.

I hope this helps

			 Marc de Jonge.


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 12:15 GMT
From: mnoble@mlsma.att.com
Subject: CORN SUGAR


For an avid UK reader, can someone answer this:

US                UK
==                ==
Corn Starch       Corn Flour
Corn Sugar        ?
Corn Syrup        ?

What exactly is Corn Syrup and Corn Sugar? It doesn't seem to be
generally available in the UK.

Martin Noble
mnoble@mlsma.att.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 Nov 1992 17:08:22 +0300 (EET)
From: NIKKANEN@ntcclu.ntc.nokia.com (KARI NIKKANEN, DESIGN ENGINEER, TEL. (90)
 511 7286)
Subject: Replacing crystal malt with toasted?


	There are many recipes in cats meow where toasted malt is used,
	sometimes with crystal malt, sometimes without.  I wonder what
	happens if instead of crystal malt I only used toasted?  What
	would be the effect in taste?  And how long pale malts should
	be toasted (in 350F) to get close to 60L crystal?  All comments
	are wellcome, as the few books I got don't say anything about
	this.

	thans in advance and happy brewing! /Kari

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 05:06:35 HST
From: richard@pegasus.com (Richard Foulk)
Subject: NA, Titans

> From: arf@ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
>
>  [...]
>  My experiments with NA make it abundantly clear that dilution is one of
>  their [Anheuser-Busch's] secret weapons.
>

Leave it to Jack to extrapolate his tiny experiment to the Anheuser-Busch
megabreweries and declare that that's the way they must be doing it.



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 09:28:55 CST
From: wood@marble.rtsg.mot.com (Dan Wood)
Subject: Party Balls, Bionic Yeast

   Kenneth Haney asked about using party balls.  I have a commercial
product based on party balls, called a "brewball".  They are made by
the Marc Fritz brewing company, and were reviewed in Zymurgy a couple
of months ago.

   From their literature, it seems like the main problem with using beer
balls was resealing them.  The brewery's crimp seal is difficult to
reproduce.  They solved this problem via their (patented) invention of
the "batch latch", a clamp that fits the neck of the ball, plus a disposible
cap made of rubber and metal that is pierced by the tap.

   Parts are available separately, or in kits.  When I ordered a few
months ago, the kits were on sale.  The "party system" consisting of a
brewball (choose 2 or 5 g), batch-latch, tap, and 5 seals is $34.95, marked
down from $54.95.  The brewball and batch-latch setup (needed to store a
2nd batch) is $19.50, marked down from $27.50.  I didn't ask how long the
sale lasts. Their number is 800-762-2560.  This tap is identical to those
used on the beer balls, except the tube to draw the beer is shorter on
the 2 gallon model.  They also have CO2 caplet based taps available.

   I'm very pleased with mine: I have the 2 gallon model.  It's great
for parties, and especially camping, as long as you're not backpacking  :).
With the air driven pump, you only have about 2 days to drink 2 gallons, so
you'd have to be really thirsty to try it solo.  I'm sure that it doesn't
compare to kegging systems, but you can't beat it for the price.

   Just a satisfied customer, no commissions for me.  :(

New topic: I've been using Edme dried yeast ever since Whitbred quit
making dried yeast a few months back.  For my last few batches, I've
been hydrating the yeast prior to pitching, but haven't tried making a
starter.  Perhaps it works "too well" without one: I'm looking for
opinions.

   The hydrated Edme yeast takes off in just a couple of hours, blows
off tremendously, and finishes in about two days.  I racked my last two
batches to secondary on the second day, but didn't get any additional
bubbling during the subsequent week.  I promise, next batch I'll take
hygrometer readings.  One annoying point: the last batch, an extract-based
amber with caramel malt and honey, blew off about 3 quarts!  That's alot
of homebrew that never made it to my glass.  :(

   I welcome any comments and suggestions, with one exception: don't
suggest all-grain brewing.  I prefer to spend my (scarce) spare time
drinking homebrew, not making it.  This may change when I'm as old as
Jack, though.  :)

   Happy brewing!

   Dan Wood: wood@rtsg.mot.com



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 10:32:36 -0500
From: blosskf@ttown.apci.com (Karl F. Bloss)
Subject: Molasses Priming

I had asked in a previous HBD about using sugar beet molasses and received
limited response.  So, I just got creative and primed a few of my last amber
ale batch with molasses individually in the bottles.  The color is *much*
darker than the rest of the batch, but the difference in taste is negligible.
I didn't want to use copious amounts because of the explosion hazard.
I just thought that Papazian says to be careful with using too much molasses.
Comments or experiences?  I planned to add a cup or two to my next amber
batch, along with a lb. of chocolate malt and see what happens.

Prost!  -Karl
(blosskf@ttown.apci.com)

------------------------------

Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 92 10:31-0400
From: Gene.Clevenger@QueensU.CA
Subject:      Prepared Beer Mixes

I am new to the list and it appears that all contributers are homebrewers with
a great amount of expertise and make their brews from 'scratch'.  However, I
would like to know what prepackaged beer kits are the best from the many that
I have seen.  I do make these kits at home and some are not so bad, and some
are very bad.  Has this 'list' ever rated them?

Years ago I made beer at home in Toronto during a beer strike and found it to
be a great deal of bother for which I don't have to time or space at the
moment.  I would appreciate some feedback on this.

Thanks.....
 Gene Clevenger,
 Assistant Librarian for Systems
 Queen's University Libraries
 CLEVENG@QUCDN.QUEENSU.CA
 (613) 545-2514 Telephone
 (613) 545-6819 Fax

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 10:42 EST
From: gcw@granjon.att.com
Subject: Wyeast 1056 Problems

Having a problem with Wyeast 1056 (American Ale), I have used this
yeast several times before with no problems, but this time -- 2
nights ago I popped the bulge and was planning to add it to a premade
starter the following night. In the morning I noticed it was already
very swollen, but did not have time to add to the starter. Last night I
added the Wyeast to the starter (it looked like it was going to blow)
and this morning it looked like nothing happened. But when I looked
closer at the bottle (clear 750ml) there was sediment at the bottom
which was not present last night.

The Wyeast was very fresh (OCT 21) and by the quantity of sediment it
looks like the yeast did not ferment at all in the starter bottle it
just settled down to the bottom. The Wyeast and the starter wort were at
the same temp and the wort OG was around 1025, so I don't think the
yeast was shocked. So my plan tonight is to add some new wort to the
yeast cake if there is no activity.

Has anyone seen 1056 ferment so fast or could have the yeast die out in
less then 24 hours in the package and if so what are my chances of
reviving it.
				Geoff Woods
				gcw@garage.att.com

By the way I posted a very complete US/Canada brewpub/micro list on
alt.beer yesterday if anyone is interested!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 9:13:12 MST
From: Rick Myers <rcm@col.hp.com>
Subject: Sugar and brewing experiment


> From: Phillip Seitz <0004531571@mcimail.com>
> Subject: Candi sugar experiment
>
> I'm planning to conduct a kitchen experiment to determine just what it is
> that candi sugar contributes to beer.  However, I'm no scientist and my
> supplies of candi sugar are limited, so I'd welcome any comments on the
> following "experimental design":

> Each batch will have 1/4 lb DME (+/- 1.040), plus 100 grams of sugar

> Ferment each batch with 50 ml starter from plated Sierra Nevada/Narragansett
> yeast (the idea being to use something healthy but neutral in flavor)

> Does this sound like the right way to go about it?

In Pierre Rajot's book _Belgian Ale_, he says the belgians use candi
sugar to lighten the flavor of their higher-gravity brews (does this
negate the need for your experiment? :-) ).  But anyway, if you want to
experiment, I think you should try to make a brew like one of which
candi sugar is intended for - something in the 1.060+ range.  I don't
think candi sugar is used at all in the lower gravity belgian beers.

Great book.  Highly recommended.

Rick

- --
Rick Myers    rcm@col.hp.com
Information Technology Specialist
Hewlett-Packard
Network Test Division
Colorado Springs, CO

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 12:13:21 -0500
From: rxh6@po.CWRU.Edu (Randall Holt)
Subject: BRF query



What is BRF?
Where can I find it?

- --
Randall W. Holt      rxh6@cwru.po.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 09:33:00 PST
From: hesed@Eng.Sun.COM (Michael Brumm - career juror!)
Subject: need Andechs recipie

Does anyone have a recipie that approximates Andechs Doppelbock Dunkel to
share?  I tried rec.crafts.brewing but didn't have any luck - either no
one is aware of one or I missed it.

Thanks for any help!

 -Mike


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 12:49:28 EST
From: "Spencer W. Thomas" <Spencer.W.Thomas@med.umich.edu>
Subject: Aluminum

(Flame-proof suit on...)

The November 5 issue of the journal Nature has an article titled
"Absence of aluminium in neuritic plaque cores in Alzheimer's
disease."  The authors used nuclear microscopy to try to detect
aluminum in the brain plaques characteristic of Alzheimer's disease.
They didn't find any (that is, no more than in "control" tissue).  The
method is allegedly significantly more sensitive than chemical
techniques that were used previously.  They conclude that previous
experiments had introduced the aluminum as part of the staining
process (their method doesn't require staining), and that aluminum
neither causes Alzheimer's nor is it associated with Alzheimer's.

Clearly more research is needed...

If you don't believe me, or don't trust my summary, look it up
yourself.  Nature is available at any university science library, and
should be at good public libraries.  The reference:

J. P. Landsberg, B. McDonald and F. Watt "Absence ...," Nature, Vol
360, No. 6399, Nov 5, 1992. Pp 65-68.


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 11:51 CST
From: korz@iepubj.att.com
Subject: Re:Diacetyl / Efficiency

Rob writes (quoting Peter Maxwell and himself):
>>> ....then I got a
>>> batch with an INCREDIBLE, UNDRINKABLE amount of diacetyl.  End of
>>> experiment.  Back to racking on day 4.
>>
>>Was this diacetyl produced BECAUSE you racked off earlier?  What happened?
>>How could racking earlier than day 4 result in this?
>
>I never claimed a causal connection, although I had hoped to get some
>evidence one way or another from other HBDers. I'd love to find the
>time and patience to test scientifically the effect of racking at 24
>hours on diacetyl production.

	[stuff deleted]

>Here's my experience racking within 12-24 hours of pitching.  All
>batches are full-mash, using only malt and specialty malts.
>
>Batch   Style     When racked                  Comments
>- -----   -----     -----------                  --------
>187     Pale Ale  Morning after (12-16 hrs.)   Up to my usual standards.
>188     Mild Ale    "      "         "         "  "  "   "       "
>189     Pale Ale  24 hours after pitching      Overpowering diacetyl.
>190     Stout     planned at 16 hours          Was fermenting too
>                                                 actively to siphon.
>
>After being unable to rack #190, I bottled #189 and discovered the
>diacetyl.  I have never since attempted racking after respiration.

A couple of pieces of data are missing and may be significant.  Before
I go on, I don't mean to imply that any of these issues were the cause
of Rob's batch of artificial butter flavor -- I just felt this was a
good opportunity to point out some causes for high-diacetyl.

First we need to understand that all yeast produce diacetyl in some
amount.  Later, when the yeast begins to run out of sugar, it re-absorbs
the diacetyl taking it out of your beer.

1. Was the yeast all the same strain?  Some yeasts are much more likely to
produce diacetyl than others.  Some (like Samuel Smith's yeast) are very
flocculent and have a high tendency to fall out of suspension.  Even though
the brewer's at the Tadcaster brewery (Sam Smith's) rouse the yeast, the
yeast still does a poor job of reducing the diacetyl -- try SS Pale Ale.

2. Were they all equally aerated?  Oxygen-deficient yeast is much less
effective at re-absorbing the diacetyl.

3. Could fermentation have completed in the first 24 hours?  One way to
make a beer with a lot of diacetyl is to rack it off the yeast as soon
as fermentation is over -- there will be less yeast to re-absorb the
diacetyl and more will be left in the beer.

Victor writes:
>To get an idea about the FG one needs to know how much of the extract is
>fermentable. This figure (Fer) is also different percentage for every malt.
>E.g.  lager malt 65% of the extract is fermentable, for white sugar this is of
>course 100%, for crystal (the European term!) it is 60%, brown sugar it is
>95% and dark malt it is 60% (I have more info, but just as example;-) .
>
>Using thus TM*Eff*Fer for every ingredient in the recipe, it is possible to
>get a figure for the amount of fermentable sugar and thus a figure of the
>amount of Alcohol. Furthermore having the a figure of UNfermentable stuff and
>the amount of alcohol, one can calculate the FG.

It's true that the amount of unfermentables is dependent on the grain, but
it's mostly dependent on your saccharafication temperature.  High-temp
conversion (e.g. 158F) will retard Beta-amylase activity and thus give you
a highly dextrinous wort (more unfermentables, higher FG).  Low-temp
conversion (e.g. 148F) will promote both Alpha- and Beta-amylase activity
and thus the two enzymes will combine to break virtually all of your starches
down fermentable sugars (less unfermentables, lower FG).

Al.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 11:57 CST
From: korz@iepubj.att.com
Subject: Re:Swedish Nightmare / Wyeast Bavarian Lager / Titans

Rick writes:
>Subject: Swedish Nightmares!!!!

The land of the midnightmare sun?

>I'm stuck in a non-brewers land full of watery lager and can't find the
>ingredients for a good Stout!!!
>
>Chocolate malt has now become (temporarily?) impossible to get in
>Sweden and I'm dying to brew a good Stout for some friends.
>
>Does anyone out there have any ideas for suitable alternatives??
>Anyone tried Cocoa or real chocolate??

No, but they are not suitable *replacements* just interesting suggestions.

>I've got 10 kilos (20 lb) of crystal malt  if anyone has any ideas on a
>conversion process (have plenty of pilsener / normal malt as well)

I don't have my stack of Zymurgys here, but I believe the Special All-grain
issue has recipes for making your own dark malts from pale malts.  Don't
trust my memory -- call the AHA (303)447-0816 and ask them for the issue that
has the article I'm talking about.

Erik writes:
>     Last Wednesday I tried to brew an extract/specialty grain
>marzen loosley based on Papazian's Winky Dink Marzen.  OG was
>around 1.050.  I cooled to around 70 degrees F and pitched Wyeast
>Bavarian Lager yeast.  I then placed the fermenterin a refridgerator
>at 45 degrees F.  No action for the first 12 hours.  I then raised the
>temperature to around 50 deg.  Still no action.  Then I turned of the
>fridge which is outside and the temperature stablized at around 55 deg.
>After 72 hours there were no signs of fermentation.  At this point
>I brought the fermenter inside in hopes that warmer temperatures
>would activate the yeast (73 deg.)  Still no action :(

Here's what I suggest.  Since it's been a *long* time now, at least
seven days by the time you get this, I suggest:

1. Taste it.  If it tastes awful, dump it.  If it's just sour, make
a batch of wheat beer and mix it with this one in the secondaries for
a Berliner Weizen (by the way -- I tasted a commercial (German) one (that
Steve Hamburg brought to the CBS/BOSS competition) for the first time in
ten years -- it was fantastic -- guess what my next experimental beer will
be...).

2. If it tastes okay, you can do one of two things:
	A. *Aerate* and pitch more Wyeast Bavarian Lager, or
	B. Boil it to kill anything that got in, cool, *aerate* and
	   pitch more Wyeast Bavarian Lager.

I made a batch of Bock with the Wyeast Bavarian Lager which did well
at the CBS/BOSS competition, despite the fact that when *young* it
smelled like home perm solution.  I pitched the yeast (without a starter)
into 70F, WELL AERATED wort and put it in the crawlspace at 57F for 24
hours.  At this time, it was just, just beginning to show activity.
I put it into the beer fridge and set the thermometer at 50F for about
three days.  At this time, it was bubbling well and the smell in the
fridge was like rising bread dough.  I lowered the temp to 45F and racked
to the secondary after three weeks.  It was in the secondary for (I
believe) two months at 45F.  At bottling time, it smelled like home
perm solution, but that smell went away after four months in the bottle
at 40F.

Jack writes:
> Nice thoughts, Chris...

I concur.  Perhaps we should all keep our senses of humor handy when
posting and especially when replying.

Al.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 13:34:38 EST
From: garti@mrg.xyplex.com (Mark Garti  mrgarti@xyplex.com)
Subject: hop back, sparging

I had asked about using my lauter tun as a hop back several
issues ago.  I received many replies from brewers who successfully
use this technique.  All of these brewers where using hop leaves
or plugs.  Being used to pellets only I over looked this and
ended up with a totally clogged hop back.  The pellet sludge had
completely plugged all of the holes in the inner bucket.  Was this
a fluke experience or should the lauter tun hop back be used for
leaf/plug hops only.  I have since not bothered to use a hop back
at all.  Was my first mistake to beleive that one was needed with
pelletized hops?

How does one know when to stop sparging?  I remember some line a
while back that spoke of tanin extraction with excessive sparging?
I sparge 10# of grain with the recommended 5 gallons of 77C water
and was still getting good??? wort.  After another 3/4 gallon
sparge water (actual sparge water was 5.75 gallons) later I was
getting 1.014 wort that was still tinted brown.  My lauter tun is
insulated and maintains temp well.  My flow rate was such that
it took almost 30 minutes to sparge, was this way to fast?  Does
the flow rate contribute significantly to extraction efficency?
How can I improve my extraction efficency?  After boiling down to
5.5 gallons I had 1.034 wort (65F).  I used 8.5# british pale malt
plus equal parts crystal and carapils.  I beleive this yields an
extraction of about 19 ppg, way below any kind of numbers i've
seen posted.  Any pointers on sparging technique would be greatly
appreciated.

Thanks,
Mark    mrgarti@xyplex.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 13:35:29 EST
From: bszymcz%ulysses@relay.nswc.navy.mil (Bill Szymczak)
Subject: Lager experience

In HBD1010 Rob Bradley discusses racking off the trub
particularly for lagers

>>When the weather gets colder here I intend to try a
>>lager and would like to know if there are any other gotchas regarding
>racking off trub.

>Me too, except that mine will be a steam beer.  Advice, fellow HBDers?

and Erik Zenhausern discusses problems with a Marzen which
is not showing signs of fermentation.

>     Last Wednesday I tried to brew an extract/specialty grain
>marzen loosley based on Papazian's Winky Dink Marzen.  OG was
>around 1.050.  I cooled to around 70 degrees F and pitched Wyeast
>Bavarian Lager yeast.  I then placed the fermenterin a refridgerator
>at 45 degrees F.  No action for the first 12 hours.  I then raised the
>temperature to around 50 deg.  Still no action.  Then I turned of the
>fridge which is outside and the temperature stablized at around 55 deg.
>After 72 hours there were no signs of fermentation.  At this point
>I brought the fermenter inside in hopes that warmer temperatures
>would activate the yeast (73 deg.)  Still no action :(

>     It is now going on the 6th day and my concern is growing with
>each passing minute.  Is the yeast dead or is it dormant?  As far
>    . . .
>     Has anyone experienced this problem with this yeast (or any
>other lager yeast)?  Should I have waited for active fermentation
> ...

I don't claim to be an expert at lagers but I'll share my limited
experience.  I am currently brewing a lager (also a Marzen) and the
first thing I noticed was that the yeast took longer to grow in
working up to a one liter starter.  My fermentation temperature
is 52 degrees F and the yeast was from Dr. Schiller's Yeast
Culture Kit (Strain L2 German Lager).  The total time for
this yeast to grow under these conditions, being transferred
from agar to 1.5 ml., then to 50 ml. then to 1 liter,
took about 6 days, (2 days growth in each
container before fermentation was evident).  The ale yeast I've
used usually takes only 3 or 4 days to be ready to pitch from the
one liter starter.

After boiling, I siphoned the hot wort through an immersion
in ice chiller and got the temperature down to 62 degrees F in
about 15 minutes.  (There was still some ice left in my bucket which
suggests that a cooler temp was possible if either the flow
was slowed down or the coil was longer.)   Since most of the
hot break was still in the kettle, I wasn't planning on racking
until the x@#$ rubber stopper fell into the carboy after I pitched
the yeast.  (Why do homebrew stores sell #6.5 stoppers for
carboys which require #8 or higher stoppers, and why was I stupid
enough to try using it more than once?)  Since it was late Sunday night
I decided to let the stopper sit in the carboy and rack the next
morning.  The carboy was put in the refrigerator at 52 degrees.
During racking I found a fair amount of sediment on the bottom,
probably consisting of yeast, trub, and hops.  However, by Monday
evening there were some bubbles on top of the wort, and by
the next morning, the krausen was pouring through the blowoff tube.
It was still fermenting vigorously this morning (Wednesday).

>From this limited and still ongoing experience I conjecture that

1.  The lag time will generally be longer with a lager
    at a reduced temp than an ale at room temp.
2.  Therefore, pitching from (at least) a one liter starter
    is more important with lagers than for ales. (I'm not
    saying it isn't important for ales too.)
3.  Racking off the trub after 8-10 hours does not cause any
    gotchas regarding fermentation for a lager.

I don't have any good advise for Erik, but I would try pitching
more yeast if no infection is evident yet.

Bill Szymczak

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 13:34:35 CST
From: jay marshall 283-5903 <marshall@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov>
Subject: breaking down kegs

I have some soda kegs that I'm trying to get cleaned up so I can use
them, and I ran into a problem last night.  I was trying to get the fittings
off of the keg and was unable to.  I thought that these things came apart
so that you could remove the stem, but after cranking down on it pretty hard
I still couldn't get it to budge.  These things do come apart don't they? Do
you turn them counter-clockwise to loosen?  Should I use something like
WD-40 or Liquid Wrench on these things to help break them loose?

I guess the larger question is whether I need to do this at all, or will
running some sanitizing solution through be ok?

Jay
marshall@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov


------------------------------

Date:     Wed, 11 Nov 92 16:07:51 EST
From: "Darren L. Ward" (FSAC-FCD) <dward@PICA.ARMY.MIL>
Subject:  Re:  Homebrew Digest #1010 (November 11, 1992)

	I have been to the Mountain Valley Brewpub in Suffern N.Y. (my home
town), the beer is excellent!!!  Any in the area are encouraged to check it out.

------------------------------
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 14:50 CST
From: arf@ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: AGAR, GOD and STOUT


 To: Homebrew Digest
 Fm: Jack Schmidling

 >From: Greg_Habel@DGC.ceo.dg.com

 >Now the big question:  How does one make the sterile brewers
 wort agar?  As you can see, I am trying to avoid purchasing the
 pre-poured slants and plates.

 Go to your neighborhood "oriental" food store a ask for agar agar.  You must
 say agar agar or they will not understand.  I got blank stares when I asked
 for agar.  It is sold in sticks about 10 inches long and 1 inch square.  It
 is a dollar or so a stick.

 Heat up one cup of sweet wort, i.e from your last batch or make it from
 extract, in a pan and place half a stick (about 5 inches) in the wort.  It
 will eventually melt completely, at which time, pour it through a tea
 strainer into a storage bottle and refrigerate till needed.

 There is a great debate about the "proper" gravity of the wort but I use
 whatever I saved from the last batch and the same stuff I use for starters.

 I have a detailed article on yeast culturing for beginners, that I will be
 happy to email to anyone interested.

 >From: bradley@adx.adelphi.edu (Rob Bradley)

 >I never claimed a causal connection, although I had hoped to get some
 evidence one way or another from other HBDers. I'd love to find the
 time and patience to test scientifically the effect of racking at 24
 hours on diacetyl production.

 I am curious to know what would motivate one to rack at such an early stage.
 One of the objectives of two stage fermentation is to leave as much stuff
 behind after each stage and primary fermentation would just be well under way
 in 24 hours.

 >I wonder if there's a suitable pagan deity whom I can invoke instead?
 Perhaps this Sumerian beer goddess mentioned in #1008-9, or some ancient
 Celtic fermentation "spirit" :-)

 Try chanting, "The Worlds's Greatest Brewer" three times while facing
 Chicago.  You can also obtain the standard WGB hymnal and community prayer
 book by email.

 >From: rizy@eel.sunet.se

 >I'm stuck in a non-brewers land full of watery lager and can't find the
 ingredients for a good Stout!!!

 >Chocolate malt has now become (temporarily?) impossible to get in
 Sweden and I'm dying to brew a good Stout for some friends.

 >Does anyone out there have any ideas for suitable alternatives??
 Anyone tried Cocoa or real chocolate??

 Chocolate malt has nothing to do with cocoa.  It is a reference to the color
 only.

 You can roast regular malt in the oven and get a great coffee aroma and
 flavor.  You can make it any color you want.  Try 400 F for 30 minutes for a
 pound.

 A better alternative is unmalted barley.  Roast it the same way but roast it
 at least until it becomes crunchy.  At this point it is just starting to
 smoke and turn color.

 You can play with this for ever as there is no end of possibile combinations
 of time and temp.

 JS



------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 Nov 1992 18:15 EDT
From: Phil Hultin <HULTINP@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Subject: Re: Swedish Nightmare

Just a suggestion on how to obtain dark malts in Lager Land.  Why
not make it yourself?  There are good instructions on home roasting
of malt in (I believe) a book called "Old English Beers and How to
Brew Them" (or something like that) that was abridged and posted
a while back.  The basic method is:
1) dry the malt at 200-250F for about 20 mins
2) raise oven temp to ca 300F or above until desired degree of
   darkness obtained.

This is so simple that you can easily try many variations until you get
what you want.  I have made a couple of amber malt batches in this way,
and I am sure you can make chocolate too.

BTW, I was told that this useful book is available from some outfit
called "The Beverage People" somewhere in the USA.  However, their
1-800 number does not work from Canada (where I am) and I have no other
means of contacting them.  Anybody out there have any help?

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 Nov 1992 18:30 EDT
From: Phil Hultin <HULTINP@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Subject: Dialysis vs Heating

Jack Schmidling suggests that dialysis is expensive.  His alternative is
to heat the brew to 170 F (if I recall correctly) to get it to 1.3% and
then dilute.  The energy costs for heating industrial quantities of
brew (even Coors) are tremendous, while dialysis systems, once installed
remove alcohol in a flow process which only requires pumping.  Dialysis
membranes are not in any sense unusual or obscure technology, and since
Coors is in the business of making money (not beer) I suggest that they
are indeed very likely to use dialysis rather than heat-based processes
in removing alcohol from their product simply because they are CHEAP.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 18:00:30 PST
From: Scott Lord (CompuCom) <v-ccsl@microsoft.com>
Subject:  RE:Swedish Nightmares!!!!!


>in HBD#1010
>RIZY@EEL.SUNSET.SE
>ASKS FOR HELP!!!


>I'm stuck in a non-brewers land full of watery lager and can't find the
>ingredients for a good Stout!!!

>Chocolate malt has now become (temporarily?) impossible to get in
>Sweden and I'm dying to brew a good Stout for some friends.

>Does anyone out there have any ideas for suitable alternatives??
>Anyone tried Cocoa or real chocolate??

>I've got 10 kilos (20 lb) of crystal malt  if anyone has any ideas on a
>conversion process (have plenty of pilsener / normal malt as well)

>I hope someone out there can help me out !

 I would try taking some of the Crystal Malt and stick it in the oven
 for about 20min
  at 275 degrees keep an eye on it when it turns brown to dark tast it
 if it burnt to your flavor there you go..

 Scott Lord
 v-ccsl@microsoft


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 20:11:38 EST
From: "Joe McCauley" <mccauley_je@vnet.ibm.com>
Subject: DC area brewpubs

I am looking for information on brewpubs in the Washington D.C. area, as
well as stores and restaurants with a large selection of regional brews
and imports.  If there are many, I am primarily interested in ones in the
Rockville/Gaithersburg area.  Thanks in advance.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 17:41:17 PST
From: Martin A. Lodahl <pbmoss!malodah@PacBell.COM>
Subject: On Plates and Decoctions

In HOMEBREW Digest #1010, a couple of items caught my attention.
First, Greg Habel is entering the wild world of yeast culturing:

> I am concerned about running out of the pre-poured wort agar plates.
> The plates are used for propogating and purifying yeast cultures.

Well, propagating, anyway.  Sure, if you have more than one strain
in your inoculum you can sometimes separate them by doing a
single-cell streak and using colony morphology as an indicator of
the different strains you wish to subculture, but the technique
won't help much if you have bacterial contamination.

> The plates are made out of plastic and are not reusable.  In the
> future I would like to continue using plates.  I have contacted a
> medical supply company for a catalog listing glass plates and culture
> tubes.  Now the big question:  How does one make the sterile brewers
> wort agar?  As you can see, I am trying to avoid purchasing the
> pre-poured slants and plates.  I would rather save the money for
> other brew-related purposes (all grain goodies).  Greg.

I got my Pyrex plates from Carolina Biological Supply.  Their prices
aren't rock-bottom, but they don't have the violent allergy to small
quantities that most suppliers of this sort of stuff do.

The "pros" will use Difco MRS or some similar medium for this job,
available only in lifetime-supply quantities at steep prices.  If
you want to play in style, who am I to say nay?  I'm a cheapskate and
use a bargain-basement approach:

Dissolve a tablespoon of dry malt extract into about 375ml of hot
water, add a pinch of the yeast-extract-type yeast nutrient, and
a teaspoon of agar-agar (available in any health food store).  When
it's all dissolved, put it and your plates in a pressure cooker for
20 minutes at 15 pounds.  Be a little careful when you bleed down
the pressure;  go too fast and your medium will end up all over the
inside of the cooker.  Sanitize a work space in a draft-free area,
banish kids and dog, line up the plates with covers in place, then
working as quickly as you can, lift the cover of a plate as little
as you can to do the job, and pour in enough hot agar/wort to cover
the bottom to the depth of a couple of millimeters, then replace the
lid.  Repeat until all plates are poured;  there's enough media in
this recipe for about 10 standard 100mm plates.  When the agar sets,
turn the plates upside-down, and keep them stored in that position.

Slants are even simpler, as you can use the same solution, and
sterilize after pouring the tubes.

			====

And Algis Korzonas got my undivided attention:

> I don't know about the cooking of the wheat in Witbier, perhaps Steve
> could follow-up, but the wheat in traditional Lambiks (another very old
> Belgian style of beer) is not pre-cooked... the only "cooking" of the
> *unmalted* wheat that appears to occur is during the decoctions (this
> is from memory -- I believe that Martin Lodahl first noted this -- Martin?)
> so the extraction is quite low from the wheat.

Well, I did mention it in the presentation Mike Sharp and I gave at
the National Conference.  When I first saw the "cooker" at a lambik
brewery I thought they must be doing the same sort of mixed-mash
that North American industrial lager brewers customarily use, but
learned that it was used solely for the decoctions.  A double
decoction, with no other cooking, does indeed appear to be the usual
method.  Needless to say, that leaves a lot of complex starch in the
mash that is never available for conversion.  By the time I noticed
this, I had given up asking lambik brewers the rationale for their
methods ...

= Martin A. Lodahl   			Pacific*Bell Systems Analyst =
= malodah@pbmoss.Pacbell.COM       Sacramento, CA       916.972.4821 =
= If it's good for ancient Druids, runnin' nekkid through the wuids, =
= Drinkin' strange fermented fluids, it's good enough for me!  8-)   =


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 20:18:36 EST
From: jdg@grex.ann-arbor.mi.us (Josh Grosse)
Subject: Pump for recirulcating hot wort

In Issue 1010, Alexander Mitchell (armitc01@ulkyvm.louisville.edu) asked
about a pump I mentioned in an article I posted in late September.  The pump
was used to recirculate the mash, aid with cooling the boiling wort, and
even distributing the cooled wort to carboys.

I'd received a few letters asking about it.  It was a Teel brand pump, rated
up to 230F, not self-priming, and about 1/8 hp, obtained by mail order from
W.W. Grainger, which has an 800 number for catalog requests and orders.

(I know this much because I asked the builder of the 1/2 barrel brewery what
kind of pump it was.)
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Josh Grosse                              jdg@grex.ann-arbor.mi.us


------------------------------


End of HOMEBREW Digest #1011, 11/12/92
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