HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.circplus
Date:         Sun, 8 Nov 1992 16:52:38 MST
              <CIRCPLUS@IDBSU.BITNET>
From:         Dan Lester <ALILESTE@IDBSU.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Reserve Holds & Copyrights
              6 Nov 1992 13:32:21 -0800 from <amescha@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>

On Fri, 6 Nov 1992 13:32:21 -0800 Charles Ames said:
>  COPYRIGHTS: Anyone out there have any ideas on how to deal with faculty
>who INSIST on putting highly questionable xeroxed items on reserve?

Have a policy forbidding this, and defining what the limits are.
Have the policy approved by your administration.
Make sure your administration in the library will enforce the policy.
Enforce it.
Remember, YOU are running the library, not the stupid faculty.

dan

*****************************************************************************
* Dan Lester                          Bitnet:   alileste@idbsu              *
* Associate University Librarian      Internet: alileste@idbsu.idbsu.edu    *
* Boise State University                                                    *
* Boise, Idaho  83725                 BSU and I have a deal: I don't speak  *
* 208-385-1234                        for them and they don't speak for me. *
*****************************************************************************
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.circplus
Date:         Thu, 12 Nov 1992 16:13:41 +1100
              <CIRCPLUS@IDBSU.BITNET>
From:         Marian Desaxe <mariand@EXTRO.UCC.SU.OZ.AU>
Subject:      Photocopying technology

Thanks all for your responses regarding scanning reserve collections.

Two more questions:

1. What developments have there been in photocopying technology in the
last 12 months?

2. What types of electronic storage/retrieval systems are people using
instead of photocopiers to offer a similar service.

This comes about because we are reviewing our photocopying service and
considering new options for offering this service in different ways for
parts of the collection. Photocopying technology is not developing in the
way we would like so we want to know what other people are doing. Scanning
the reserve collection is an option that has come up - its just at idea
stage and will probably stay there for some time.

For others interested, people have sent me the name of a company :

JPS Marketing
284 Muse Drive
El Dorado Hills
CAl. 95630.
Cost seems expensive and there are copyright problems both in the State
and "down under".

There is also a company called the "Memex Institute". Scott Seaman Head of
Access Services University of Colorado, has details.

Thanks for your assistance,

Marian De Saxe
Circulation Librarian
University of Sydney Library
Sydney, Australia
email: mariand@extro.ucc.su.oz.au
From: ALI00KRM@UNCCVM.BITNET (Randall May)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.circplus
Subject: Copyright & Photocopies
Date: 9 Nov 92 17:06:19 GMT
              <CIRCPLUS@IDBSU.BITNET>
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Acknowledge-To: <ALI00KRM@UNCCVM>


   We are in the process of examining the copyright issue in light of
new technology and service needs.  Pressure to go through this rather
laborious process has come from 1) the reserve collections area, where
usage of materials has increased sharply, 2) our implementation of an on-
campus document delivery service for our faculty that includes the
option of photocopy of journal articles in our collection, and 3) online
request forms for ILL photocopy.
   Our existing copyright policies have worked fine and have been
supported by the university's legal office, but do not really address
these new (for us at any rate!) way of doing business.
   I would be most interested to hear how others out there are dealing
with such questions.
   Thanks!
Randall May
Circulation Librarian
University of North Carolina Charlotte
Charlotte, North Carolina  28223
ALI00KRM.BITNET
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.circplus
Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1992 16:14:35 EDT
              <CIRCPLUS@IDBSU.BITNET>
From:         "Richard F. Bennett" <BENNETT@NERVM.NERDC.UFL.EDU>
Subject:      Collection Inventory

We are in the process of developing detailed conceptual plans for
conducting a collection inventory. Our assumption is that the most
efficient way to do this will be to insure that all titles in our
collection have machine-readable records, that all copies of those
titles are represented with system records, and that all items have
been barcoded. Items on the shelf would be scanned with some type of
hand-held device, the "on shelf" info added to a database of items
that are checked out, and this combined database matched against the
entire database. Those items not accounted for would be reported to
us for further reconciliation action.

I would like to hear from any libraries that have done an inventory
(or are thinking of doing inventory) through some type of automated
process. Is (was) your process similar to that envisioned above? Was
any software for doing inventory included with your automated system,
or was it developed locally? What advice can anyone offer?

We are a NOTIS site, and are particularly interested in any inventory
efforts by NOTIS users. However, we are generally interested in
everyone's efforts in this direction.

Thanks very much in advance.
From: ajuorio@LIB.UWO.CA (Alex Juorio)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.circplus
Subject: (no subject given)
Date: 6 Nov 92 18:36:45 GMT
              <CIRCPLUS@IDBSU.BITNET>
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]

SUSCRIBE CIRCPLUS Alex Juorio
From: NEW@LIBRARY.UTA.EDU (Tony New)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.circplus
Subject: reserve Materials
Date: 12 Nov 92 16:30:34 GMT
              <CIRCPLUS@IDBSU.BITNET>
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-pmrqc:      1
Priority:     normal
X-mailer:     Pegasus Mail v2.3 (R4).

> I am interested in findout out what the policy is in other
> libraries
> concerning materials placed on reserve.  For example, it is long
> standing policy to not allow ILL materials on reserve, but what do you
> do about materials the faculty borrow from other institutions.  Would a
> video that has been rented from a local viedo store be placed on
> reserve?  How about a book from the Public Library.  If you do permit
> these materials on reserve, how do you protect your library if the
> materials are lost or damaged?  Thanks in advance.
>

Hello Mary,

Only once has this question come up since I've been here.  A
professor wanted to put a Blockbuster Video tape on reserve.  We
declined.  We do not have a written policy on this but an "implied
policy" exists in what we call materials that do not belong to us:
"Personal copies" and "Photocopies".  Both terms imply
PERSONAL ownership.  More suciently: the implied policy is that we
accept only materials belonging to the individual who is placing them
on Reserve.

On our Reserve Processing Request Form, we state "We make every
attempt to protect your personal materials, however, THE LIBRARY CAN
NOT REPLACE PERSONAL MATERIALS WHICH ARE LOST OR DAMAGED."  Again our
"implied" policy is evident in our choice of the words "personal
materials".

I can not see us accepting books belonging to other libraries.

Hope this helps.
From: 20676DAL@MSU.BITNET (Debra.Downing)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.circplus
Subject: Library cards
Date: 12 Nov 92 01:12:00 GMT
              <CIRCPLUS@IDBSU.BITNET>
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU


   >     Any suggestions on how to get students/faculty to carry and
   >     present their library cards when checking out materials?

Arlene:  I'm happy to say that for some reason, we do NOT see too many of
these patrons. For those patrons that DO forget, we ask "You are allowed to
checkout books or reserve items without your ID only ONCE during your academic
career. Are you sure you want to do that now?" And I dare say, I think it
makes them THINK, so they remember it in the future.  Of course, they must
have SOME form of picture ID even then. Otherwise, no way, now how. We put a
code in their record, so they are never given a second "exception".  We WILL
hold books for 24 hours.

A RELATED QUESTION:  It is a university policy that student's IDs must not be
used by others.  When we run into this, we confiscate the ID and return it
to the ID office, unless the real owner shows up with picture ID. Does anyone
else do this?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Debra Anne Downing                      INTERNET: 20676dal@ibm.cl.msu.edu
Assigned Reading Services Coordinator     BITNET: 20676dal@msu
Michigan State University Libraries        PHONE: (517) 353-8721
East Lansing, MI  48824-1048                 FAX: (517) 336-1445
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.circplus
Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 14:38:07 EST
              <CIRCPLUS@IDBSU.BITNET>
From:         ARLENE <arlene@MAILER.NYMC.EDU>
Subject:      Library Cards

          Breaking old habits is not easy!!

          Our Circulation Staff is having difficulty enforcing
          a new policy - which consists of not keeping students and
          faculty library cards on file anymore.

          Any suggestions on how to get students/faculty to carry and
          present their library card when checking out materials?


---------- X:MART.TMP
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Delivery-Notice:  SMTP MAIL FROM does not correspond to sender.
Posted-Date: Fri, 13 Nov 92 09:02:34 PST
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.csg-l
Date:         Fri, 13 Nov 1992 09:02:34 PST
From:         marken@AERO.ORG
Subject:      MESSAGE FROM MARY

[From Rick Marken (921113.0900)]

Mary Powers( 921111)

> I ran
>across a nice quote about the Test. Almost 3 centuries old.

     Search then the ruling passion; there alone
     The wild are constant, and the cunning known;
     The fool consistent, and the false sincere;
     Priests, princes, women, no dissemblers here.
     This clue once found unravels all the rest.

                         Alexander Pope, 1688-1744


WOW!!!! Couldn't have said it better myself; "no dissemblers here".
Incredible. Nice find. Mary!!

Best regards

Rick

     **************************************************************

Richard S. Marken                   USMail: 10459 Holman Ave
The Aerospace Corporation                   Los Angeles, CA 90024
E-mail: marken@aero.org
(310) 336-6214 (day)
(310) 474-0313 (evening)
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.csg-l
Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 14:49:56 EST
From:         mmt@BEN.DCIEM.DND.CA
Subject: Re: meaningful or less

[Martin Taylor 921110 14:30]
(Bruce Nevin 921110 12:55:31)

> In PCT, meanings are remembered or imagined
>perceptions associated with a given perception.

Sorry? What construct in PCT is an association?  This sentence doesn't fit
my simple view of PCT as an acyclic network of ECSs that deal in the control
of scalar perceptual signals.

The closest I can come to an association in PCT is in the perceptual input
function.  If the function involves variables A, B, ...N, then disturbances
on A may cause outputs that use changes in B to restore the value of the
perceptual signal.  An outside observer might well say that B is associated
with A, seeing this.  But I can't see this kind of relation as being
connected with "remembered or imagined perceptions associated with a given
perception."

What I can see, and this comes closest to my notion of "meaning," is that
A, B, ..., and N all contribute to the perceptual signal, and it is the
transformation done by the perceptual input function that matters.  The
contribution to that transformation is the "meaning" of A, or B, or ...N.
And since the hierarchy is connected many-to-many, they all have a multiplicity
of "meanings," some operative simultaneously, some only in competition and thus
sequentially.

I'm afraid that the rest of your "crux" paragraph thus becomes problematic.
I'll quote it all, and leave comment to you.

>In the universe of our perceptions (our only knowable universe), meaning
>has to do with everything.  In PCT, meanings are remembered or imagined
>perceptions associated with a given perception.  If we are controlling
>the given perception, some of these other perceptions arising through
>associative memory and imagination may also come to be controlled, and
>in this way affect the actions (behavioral outputs) that result from
>perceptual control.  Among those actions may be included some that we
>call language.

Martin
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.csg-l
Date:         Fri, 13 Nov 1992 11:23:20 EST
From:         mmt@BEN.DCIEM.DND.CA
Subject: Re: Nevin comments on agreement

[Martin Taylor 921113 11:15]
Bruce Nevin (Fri 921113 09:53:34)

>There are ALWAYS hidden propositions.  Rather, there are always
>perceptions associated with a given agreement in one person that are not
>associated with that agreement in the other.  An agreement is itself not
>an agreement about propositions, it is a (perception of) agreement
>about perceptions.  (An agreement that was only about a proposition
>would be an agreement like "yes, we employed that string of words.")

Gordon Pask used to say that the only fact in psychology was "an agreement
over an understanding."  What I got out of his discussion, which was often
quite opaque, was that there were three useful levels of feedback about
a proposition (possibly a very complex one):

1) to repeat the words back assured the original talker (O) that the
recipient (R) had received the correct words.
2) To paraphrase the proposition assured O that R had understood the
interrelations (syntactic, semantic, pragmatic) of the words, and
3) To describe the effect of the proposition in another way (O said "circle"
and R says "you mean the locus of points equidistant on a plane from a
given point") means that R understood the proposition.

Pask argued that third-level feedback gave an iron-clad guarantee that
R had received what O intended to send.  Such an agreement seems to me
to be more than a simple agreement about a simple perception, and far
more than 'an agreement like "yes, we employed that string of words."'

Bruce Nevin (Fri 921113 09:52:14)

>It is circular only to the extent that the associativity of
>perceptions one with another turns out to be circular, and that simply
>is as it is.

When one controls a perception through an unforgiving "Boss reality", I
think the circularity is broken.

Martin
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.csg-l
Date:         Fri, 13 Nov 1992 08:33:12 EDT
Comments:     Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X
From:         "Bill Cunningham, ATCD-G (8" <CUNNINGB@MONROE-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject:      Johari & proposition sets

From Bill Cunningham (921113.0830)

It strikes me that the mutually held proposition set is analogous
to the "arena" portion of the Johari window, with the same problems
created by proposition sets held unilaterally.  I'm not sure how far
to carry the analogy, but it might be a useful tool for explaining
the mathematical approach to a nonmath oriented audience.If so, the
analogy serves as an example of creating mutually held propositions as
the first protocol layer for communication.


Bill C.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Organization: Texas A%M University
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.csg-l
Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1992 08:17:05 CST
From:         MLee <N336BZ@TAMVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: dear Rick

I am just a lowly grad student who has just signed-on to this list
primarily as an observer, but in reply to Rick Marken's last post
re: presidential control systems:

                          DITTO


Regards,

M. Lee
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.csg-l
Date:         Fri, 13 Nov 1992 09:54:43 EST
From:         "Bruce E. Nevin" <bnevin@CCB.BBN.COM>
Subject:      Avery: consensus

[From: Bruce Nevin (Fri 921113 07:53:30)]

(Avery Andrews (921112.951) ) --

Re membership & consensual reality, yes of course, we test agreements
against "private" (nonconsensual) perceptions.  But not all the time or
rigorously or exhaustively, that would be too exhausting and would
cripple higher purposes.  No, we live to an astonishing extent in a
universe of imagined perceptions and "the world" lets us get away with
it.  I think consensual reality enables this: the agreements that are
reached and inherited (learned) as part of culture are such as don't get
us into trouble.  That is their evolutionary value.

>does seem to me as a parent that neither I nor my wife spent much time
>correcting syntax and subcategorization errors - what stands out is the
>corrections of morphology, and some usage issues, such as the much/many
>distinction.

Most correction is done by the child without adults' awareness,
comparing what she said with what adults said back, etc., where what is
said back etc. (even if providing a corrected image) was not said with
the conscious intention of correcting.

I understood from Parry & Lord when I read their book years ago that the
epics certainly must have been composed and rehearsed beforehand, not
extemporized on the spot, and that the repeated formulaic passages
helped them to remember it all, and gave them a breather of sorts to get
set for the next section of more demanding material.  My observation is
that just this sort of thing happens a lot in conversations--Penni just
gave a sort of limiting case where no sort of conversation is foreseen
(in imagination) that is not too demanding, and nothing is produced but
breather-formulae.  It certainly happens a lot in politicians' Q&A responses.

(Avery Andrews 921113.1047) --

The perceptions of agreements that we each build up internally to
constitute consensual reality for ourselves do seem to be out there in
the world, just as other perceptions seem to be out there in the world.
(Bill: as before, the operative word here is "seem".)

        Bruce
        bn@bbn.com
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.csg-l
Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 10:21:35 EST
From:         "Bruce E. Nevin" <bnevin@CCB.BBN.COM>
Subject:      associative memory

[From: Bruce Nevin (Wed 921111 10:12:08)]

(Martin Taylor 921110 14:30) --
In re "meaningful or less" (Bruce Nevin 921110 12:55:31)

I've been "leaning on" something called associative memory for some time
in my efforts to understand the relation between nonverbal perceptions
and words.  In Bill's proposal, a word is associated with nonverbal
perceptions in the input function of a category-level ECS.  This seems
to me more crisp and well defined than is suggested by my subjective
experience of associative memory.  Perhaps I am underestimating the
contribution of imagination, and the amplification (or cascading,
rather) of that contribution through the interconnectedness of ECSs at
the category level.  Whatever the case may actually turn out to be, I
have assumed that associative memory introduces (and functions in)
pathways over and above those used by the familiar p, r, and e signals
in our diagrams of an ECS.

This then is the answer to your question:

>> In PCT, meanings are remembered or imagined
>>perceptions associated with a given perception.
>
>Sorry? What construct in PCT is an association?  This sentence doesn't fit
>my simple view of PCT as an acyclic network of ECSs that deal in the control
>of scalar perceptual signals.

	Bruce
	bn@bbn.com
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.csg-l
Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 10:19:47 CST
From:         "(John Gabriel)" <gabriel@EID.ANL.GOV>
Subject:      Introducing myself

(gabriel 921111 0945CST)

I realised last night that I had started a conversation on the net without
proper introduction. Tsk tsk.

I am a computer jock, close to retirement.  Bill Cunningham introduced
me to the net. In the past I have made my living as an Electrical
Engineer and as a theoretical physicist doing Group Theory and Quantum
Mechanics.

These days I work on software questions of various kinds. The proximate
cause of my participation in CSG is an interest in decision support, and,
more remotely, a concern to have wise government, so as to avoid civil
unrest, war, and other things we would all sooner not have happen. It
seems to me that fits  well with the etymology of "Cybernetics."

I met Bill C. some years ago when we both laboured to see that Uncle
Sam's money was wisely spent in a project whose intention was to
extract needles from haystacks of messages about battles. Not very
different from extracting needles of truth from haystacks of press
releases about elections.

Now, I work on proofs about computer programs for amusement - hence the
interest in attribute spaces and Hamming distances, and in information
theoretic aspects of the theory of computation. From there it is not a
great leap to PCT, and to application of ideas from PCT in decision
support.

		John Gabriel (gabriel@eid.anl.gov)
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.csg-l
Date:         Sun, 8 Nov 1992 12:18:40 MST
From:         Ed Ford <ATEDF@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      internal conflict

from Ed Ford (921108:1220)

Tom Bourbon (921106)....

>.....I believe Ed meant that he would like to call down a pox on both
>parties and on both the congress and past presidents. (Is that it,
>Ed?).....

That's it exactly Tom.  I am reminded of the famous line from the movie
A Man For All Seasons.  Thomas More (Paul Scofield) is resisting
Cardinal Wolsey's (Orson Welles) request for help in pressuring Rome to
given in to King Henry VIII's desire for an annulment from his first
wife by threatening to take or tax church property.  Wolsey asks
"Explain how you as counselor of England can obstruct these measures
for the sake of your own private conscience."  I think More's answer is
a classic, and the reason we are experiencing the mess we are in.  He
replies "Well, I think that when statesmen forsake their own private
conscience for the sake of their public duties, they lead their country
by a short route to chaos."

It seems to me that by forsaking our own systems concepts, that which
we've built over a life time of thinking and experiencing, for the sake
of what we perceive as social demands or social approval, as More
states, we lead our country as well as oursevles "by a short route to
chaos." I would add that we may also be placing ourselves in conflict
if we are making choices that are in conflict with our systems of
beliefs which we hold sacred.  We may have two areas of importance
within our systems concepts that are incompatible.  On the first side,
the approval of the voters and the power that comes with the office and
thus the decisions we make that help us maintain this status quo; on
the other side, other systems of beliefs that we've formed and held in
high respect over the years that are now in conflict with the first
side.

Closed Loop was mailed out Saturday to paid up members of the CSG.

Best, Ed.

Ed Ford ATEDF@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU
10209 N. 56th St., Scottsdale, Arizona 85253            Ph.602 991-4861
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU