HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kbos@carina.unm.edu (Kurt Bose "of Biscayzee")
Subject: Re: Dawson, was: Re: GMaddux to Test Free Agency Waters
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 18:53:47 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico

In article <3801@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> dtate+@pitt.edu (David M Tate) writes:
>
>We should see 25 HR out of almost *any* hitter with any power at all, if he
>plays half his games in Wrigley.  25 HR in Wrigley is not impressive.  For
>Andre, who no longer has his speed or defense, and never had any OBP, 25 HR
>is totally inadequate, since it represents the greater part of his personal
>contribution to the offense.
>

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, Dave, but just what percentage of the
power hitters in Wrigley show do you attribute to the park?  All to most of the
attempts to show this I've seen or done come up with a relatively stable 8%
increase in power (home runs, anyway) over a neutral park.  Is 22 home runs in
Riverfront as unimpressive?  That's about the number of HRs the park factors I
use would project him to hit in Riverfront.  (Conversely, is 25 HR in Riverfront
in some way impressive?  The same numbers show that hitter only to blast four
more out if he were playing in Wrigley.)  Don't interpret this as a "PROVE YOUR
STATEMENT!!!!!" post, but if the numbers I'm used to seeing are skewed, I'd like
to know so I can correct my tables...


-- 
Kurt Bose (as in Daisy, not Rose) - kbos@carina.unm.edu - I'm not the AntiChrist
I AM a Junior Stathead.  Flame me; it's fun!  I'm a shutmouthed, selfless idiot!
Latest Attempted Compiler of the R.S.BB FAQ - Now Accepting Submissions...(hint)
Have you hugged a Dan Gladden fan today? - Dave Rossing : .456/39/132 at Denver!
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu)
Subject: Re: RC/27 for DHes
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 21:38:07 GMT

Ugh.  I left out Chili Davis.  I guess my evil Twin must be an A's fan. :-)

In article <1992Jul24.174541.3458@leland.Stanford.EDU> claudius@leland.stanford.edu (Nelson Lu) writes:
>Dave Winfield, Toronto		8.32
>Paul Molitor, Milwaukee		8.06
>Brian Downing, Texas		6.95
Chili Davis, Minnesota		6.31
>Albert Belle, Cleveland		5.79
>Sam Horn, Baltimore		5.75
>Kevin Maas, New York		5.09
>Glenn Davis, Baltimore		5.00
>George Brett, Kansas City	4.72
>George Bell, Chicago		4.51
>Tino Martinez, Seattle		4.50
>Jack Clark, Boston		4.47
>Harold Baines, Oakland		4.40
>Hubie Brooks, California	2.88
>
>===============================================================================
>GO CALIFORNIA ANGELS!
>Committee to Elect Johnny Ray as Angels Second Baseman
>Committee to Elect Mike Witt as Angels Ace
>Committee to Elect Cookie Rojas as Angels Manager
>===============================================================================
>Nelson Lu (claudius@leland.stanford.edu)

===============================================================================
GO CALIFORNIA ANGELS!
Committee to Elect Johnny Ray as Angels Second Baseman
Committee to Elect Mike Witt as Angels Ace
Committee to Elect Cookie Rojas as Angels Manager
===============================================================================
Nelson Lu (claudius@leland.stanford.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: claudius@leland.stanford.edu (Nelson Lu)
Subject: RC/27 for 3Bs
Organization: DSG, Stanford University
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 23:44:29 GMT

Sheffield's stats may not be up to date...

NATIONAL LEAGUE
Gary Sheffield, San Diego	8.61
Ken Caminiti, Houston		7.14
Dave Magadan, New York		6.08
Dave Hollins, Philadelphia	6.05
Terry Pendleton, Atlanta	5.75 (and falling?)
Todd Zeile, St. Louis		4.97
Steve Buechele, Chicago		4.89
Chris Sabo, Cincinnati		4.81
Dave Hansen, Los Angeles	3.67
Bret Barberie, Montreal		3.63
Tim Wallach, Montreal		3.60 (the perfect platoon? :-))
Matt Williams, San Francisco	3.50 (how the mighty has fallen...)

AMERICAN LEAGUE
Edgar Martinez, Seattle		9.04
Robin Ventura, Chicago		6.84
Leo Gomez, Baltimore		6.23
Wade Boggs, Boston		6.10
Dean Palmer, Texas		5.80
Kevin Seitzer, Milwaukee	5.01
Gregg Jefferies, Kansas City	4.83
Brook Jacoby, Cleveland		4.53
Carney Lansford, Oakland	4.48
Scott Leius, Minnesota		4.32
Scott Livingstone, Detroit	4.27
Charlie Hayes, New York		3.82
Kelly Gruber, Toronto		3.57 (Kent has a 4.91)
Gary Gaetti, California		3.17 (I am used to it :-()

===============================================================================
GO CALIFORNIA ANGELS!
Committee to Elect Johnny Ray as Angels Second Baseman
Committee to Elect Mike Witt as Angels Ace
Committee to Elect Cookie Rojas as Angels Manager
===============================================================================
Nelson Lu (claudius@leland.stanford.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols)
Subject: In case you missed it...
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 20:52:52 GMT

I haven't seen anybody comment on this, and it didn't get much attention in
the papers beyond a small article, but arbiter George Nicolau ruled this
week on the union's greivance over the amateur draft rule changes,
overturning the changes.  Nicolau hasn't yet determined damages, which
could range as far as making all the high school players drafted this year
free agents.  

Once again, the owners take careful aim, and shoot themselves in the foot.
These changes were very poorly thought out, and seemed almost designed to
provoke a greivance or lawsuit.

Sherri Nichols
snichols@adobe.com

Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: lsmith@cs.umn.edu (Lance "Not Here" Smith)
Subject: Re: luck in baseball
Organization: The Little Squids of the Poor
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 21:16:28 GMT

In article <19734@optima.cs.arizona.edu> dkl@cs.arizona.edu (David K. Lowenthal) writes:
>
>My basic argument is that the good teams are the ones who don't allow
>luck to enter into the game.

But there are elements that are unpredictable that no team can prevent
or anticipate. Since both teams should be good, it's often a matter of
what side the strange events occur.

I prefer to think of it as good or bad timing than good or bad luck. 
Over a long season, bad plays often don't matter as much. Lonnie Smith
may make several base running errors over the course of a season. If 
they aren't so common that his other play makes up for these errors, you
still play him rather than another player. Now when he does it during
the seventh game in a close ball game, it's suddenly more important 
than if he had done the same thing a 10-5 victory over San Francisco
in May.

However, let me try one bit that I think falls into the "luck" category:

Injuries

So Vince Coleman gets attacked by a tarp roller in 1985. I consider this
bad luck. Of course, spectacular injuries like this are rare enough that 
they don't often figure into the outcome, but I think small lesser 
injuries (John Smiley's arm injury last year) affect play enough to
tip the balance in a close series.
-- 
  Lance "On Vacation" Smith    | "Upon the corner of the plate
    (lsmith@cs.umn.edu)        |  There hangs a curve ball to be hit;
  More replica World Series    |  I'll smote it ere it reach the mitt."
  rings than David Thornley    |          "The Scottish Player," III. v. 23
From: mjs@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Marc Sabatella)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1992 19:31:19 GMT
Subject: Re: Value of Stats
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball

In rec.sport.baseball, djohnson@cayley.waterloo.edu (David Johnson) writes:

> I think that stats are very valuable to look at but some people put too
> much emphasis on them when comparing players.  For example compare George
> Bell to Dave Winfield and their contributions to the Jays.  If they had
> exactly the same stats I would take Winfield over Bell because Winfield
> always puts 100% effort, is a hard worker, is a team leader and will do
> anything the manager says and anything which will help the team win.

Ah, but they *don't* have exactly the same stats (at least, I doubt they do).

Do you really mean to say you'd take the lesser player if he gave 100% effort?
Awfully sweet of you, but not conducive to winning, which is what a lot of us
enjoy.

> Another thing that stats don't show is how agressive a player is.  For 
> anyone who has seen R. Alomar play a lot you will realize that he forces
> other teams to make errors by running extra hard to first on a ground ball
> causing the other team to rush a throw etc.  As far as I know there is no
> stat which shows this.

OBA would if it counted "reached base on errors", which most true sta-heads
believe it should.

> Stats don't tell everything about a player so don't
> base your arguements on stats alone.

If the argument is "who is a better player", then good objective statistics
contribute a whole lot more than what someone says about how hard the players
worked.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marc "Dave" Sabatella		Disclaimer: OPS is not the One True Statistic
marc@hpmonk.fc.hp.com		that makes all others obsolete
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: Jarrod.Miller@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Jarrod Miller)
Subject: Re: 6 hits in inning without scoring
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service
Distribution: rec
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 21:27:46 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.212002.17225@samba.oit.unc.edu> Jarrod.Miller@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Jarrod Miller) writes:
>In article <18792@drutx.ATT.COM> bew@druwa.ATT.COM (WeissBE) writes:
>>
>>dgh2@quads.uchicago.edu (Doug Huffer) writes
>>How can a team get 3 triples, 1 double, 2 singles, and 2 stolen

>No runs, 5 hits (2 triples, 1 double, 2 singles), 3 outs
>
>-jarrod

One of these days I promise to go to reading class again.  Oops

-jarrod


--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
From: hira@cme.nist.gov (Ron Hira)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Orioles Schedule
Date: 27 Jul 92 14:42:54 GMT
Reply-To: hira@cme.nist.gov
Organization: National Institute of Standards and Technology

Could some kind soul please email me the the O's schedule.

Thanks,
Ron

email:hira@cme.nist.gov
 
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: dgh2@quads.uchicago.edu (Doug Huffer)
Subject: The Yankee Dollar (1945) (WAS:Re: Salary Cap should be IMPOSED on spending.) 
Reply-To: dgh2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 19:36:23 GMT

In article <1992Jul19.154142.5081@Princeton.EDU> roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:
>In article <1992Jul18.232749.1@gallua.gallaudet.edu> 
>11dmcvay@gallua.gallaudet.edu (Daniel T. McVay) writes:
>>I think that in the best interests of baseball, there be a salary cap
>>because supposing that we go into a depression, the baseball league MIGHT
>>fold. 
>
[stuff deleted]
 
>>and where are the owners going to get the money to pay such hefty contracts?
>
>Well, they've ALREADY signed those contracts, and they have presumably
>done the financial planning required.  Currently, salaries for MLB are
>about 28% of total income, so there would seem to be a little slack.
>Note that baseball is currently far more popular and profitable than it
>was in 1929, even.

From my 1951 Baseball Encyclopedia I give you the "Yankee Dollar of 1945".
Percentage of income and expenditures from various sources:   

Income					Expense
Home Game Receipts - 52.3%		Player Salaries - 24.8%
Abroad Receipts    - 16.0		Taxes		- 23.4
Concessions	   - 11.3		Overhead	- 18.7
Sale of Players    -  8.8		*Profit*	-  9.0
Stadium Rents	   -  4.4		Stadium Operat. -  8.8
Radio 		   -  3.7		Scouting	-  4.9
Exhibitions	   -  3.1		Abroad Expenses -  4.0
Misc		   -  0.4		Depreciation	-  3.7
					Training	-  1.5
					Interest	-  0.9
					Player Purchase -  0.2
					Misc 		-  0.1 

Anybody have something from recent years.  Expenses are probably pretty 
similar, income much more TV dependent.  

>
>Roger

dgh2@quads.uchicago.edu     ||  Official Baseball Rules, 1.04 (Con't #6)  
    It is recommended that the distance from home base to the back-
stop, and from the base lines to the nearest fence, stand, or other ob-
struction on foul territory shall be 60 feet or more.  See Diagram 1. 
From Baseballs Official Rules, 1992 edition.  Without permission, of course.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: rlm7638@tamsun.tamu.edu (Jack McKinney)
Subject: Minor League game reports??
Organization: Texas A&M University, College Station
Distribution: rec
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 20:31:21 GMT

      Where can one find reports on Minor League games? I know that Baseball
Weekly publishes scores and schedules, but I would like to see some game re-
ports (i.e., a report of the style the BW reports the MajLeague games in--
who started, replaced. Who batted what, who was walked, etc.)

+--------------------------------------------------+-------------------------+
| Koyaanisqatsi (from the Hopi language): 1. Crazy | Jack McKinney           |
|  life. 2. Life in turmoil 3. Life out of balance | jmckinney@tamu.edu      |
|  4. Life disintegrate. 5. A state of life that   +-------------------------+
|  calls for another way of living.                |   This space for rent   |
+--------------------------------------------------+-------------------------+
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols)
Subject: Re: Value of Stats
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 00:01:41 GMT

In article <BrrGCL.FI7@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> djohnson@cayley.waterloo.edu (David Johnson) writes:
>>Are you sure that having a good time creates a better atmosphere? How do 
>>Rance Mulliniks, Derek Bell and Rob Ducey feel about Winfield? Could they 
>>blame him for lack of playing time? I don't know, but it's a worthwhile
>>consideration.
>
>If Rance Mulliniks, Derek Bell, and Rob Ducey don't think that a .300 hitter
>15HR and 50 RBI man so far shouldn't be playing then they shouldn't be
>considered team players as well.  

Even if that .300 hitter with 15 HR and 50 RBIs is a grouch who hates
everybody else on the team, and only gives 75%? 

Sherri Nichols
snichols@adobe.com



Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: vince@vaxr.sscl.uwo.ca
Subject: Re: Both Canadian teams in first place
Organization: Social Science Computing Laboratory
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 20:27:37 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.172619.28809@panix.com>, spira@panix.com (Greg "Sarcasm Is A Way Of Life" Spira) writes:
> The more interesting question is - how would CBS like a World Series
> played completely in Canada?  
> 
> Greg 

I can just hear the dull "splots" coming from the pavement outside the
CBS building now:  doesn't it bring a smile to your face?!?!?  What a
wonderful thing: screw around with baseball coverage all year ("We
really only got the contract to get the World Series, after all:  you
mean people want to see games during the regular season????"), and
then they take a COMPLETE and UTTER bath on the postseason.

Maybe the commissioner would declare it in the best interest of
baseball that that never be allowed to happen, though.  "We have
decided, in the best interests of baseball, to disallow some of the
(fill in team name)'s victories, because they would produce really
crummy TV ratings and screw up the next contract."

It _COULD_ be interesting, but a long way from happening yet. (But,
anyone who got 100,000:1 on the Expos not winning must be getting a
bit starry-eyed at the prospect).  Wasn't it Dave Tate who mentioned
that this was a _really_ stupid line at the time?

Vince Gray      vince@vaxi.sscl.uwo.ca
From: spira@panix.com (Greg "Sarcasm Is A Way Of Life" Spira)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Value of Stats
Date: 25 Jul 92 22:14:58 GMT
Organization: Boo!

In <1992Jul25.184843.6724@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca> 91287041@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (roger maynard) writes:

>In <1992Jul25.164618.8657@panix.com> spira@panix.com (Greg Spira) writes:

>>The problem in this case, of course, is that Puckett's individual statistics
>>are much closer to Luis Salazar's individual statistics the last few years 
>>than Barry Bonds' individual statistics (though, obviously, that won't be
>>the case this year).  

>>        RC27 '90    RC27 '91
>>Puck      5.35        4.78
>>Salaz     3.57        3.77
>>Bonds     9.36        8.66

>This is the typical example of how some people abuse statistics.

No.  

>Puckett had 195 hits in '91.  This is more than Salazar's output for
>'90 and '91 combined. 

Aha! Here we have a good example of how some people abuse statistics!
No context whatsoever.  Just some numbers with no real meaning by
themselves thrown out.

I'm going to have to send the Society Against The Abuse of Statistics
after Roger.  (That's SATAS in shortened form)   

>Salazar hasn't even been an everyday player.  
>How can you say that Puckett's contribution compares with Salazar's?

I didn't say exactly that.  I said that "Puckett's individual statistics
are much closer to Luis Salazar's individual statistics than Barry Bonds'
individual statistics."  Since I used RC27, I was obviously referring to
their rate of offensive production.  Obviously, Puckett has had more at-bats
than Salazar, and his total contribution would be higher if you rated by
a total rather than a rate based stat.  But the fact remains that Puckett's
rate of offensive production was closer to Salazar's rate than Bonds rate.
And while Salazar was not a full time player, he did have 785 plate
appearances during '90 and '91, and he was not a platoon player, so his
stats are quite legitimate.

>I think you are just being argumentative.  
> 
I think you just like to say "I think you are just being argumentative."

Greg

P.S. - Please, Roger, everybody, there's no real reason to quote signatures,
especially ones that are more than a name and address.  Everybody can read
the attribution line.

-- 
  spira@panix.com       "The one-O delivery to Fisk.  He swings.  Long drive,  
 cmcl2!panix!spira      left field!  If it stays fair, it's gone!  Home Run!"  
158-17 Riverside Dr.                     Ned Martin, 10/22/75   
Whitestone NY 11357          (Insert your favorite baseball moment here)
From: efindler@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Edward Findler)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Dynamic Duos
Date: 31 Jul 92 19:02:00 GMT
Reply-To: efindler@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Edward Findler)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD

Here are my humble attempts at answering:
1.  Most Hits
    Joe Jackson and Tris Speaker, Indians 1910?
2.  Most Doubles
    Earl Webb and one teammate, 1936
3.  Most Walks
    Ted Williams and Vern Stephens
4.  Batter's Strikeouts
    Rob Deer and Cecil Fielder, 1991
    possibly Incaviglia and one Ranger in '87
5.  Stolen Bases
    Vince Coleman and Ozzie or McGee '85
6.  Sandy Koufax and Drysdale


-- Ted Findler
-- 
__________________________________________________________
|        Ted Findler         | Watch for Cal in June '95 |
| efindler@oasys.dt.navy.mil |  Consecutive Game #2131   |
From: zuhars@madrone.eecs.ucdavis.edu (Gary Not Just For The Dead Huckabay)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Cubs totally finished with Maddux?
Keywords: Listen to the money talk....
Date: 28 Jul 92 18:09:33 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Lance Smith Tastee Freezes, Inc.

(Chuck McCusker P015) writes:
Gary "Kyle Abbott Wanna Be" Huckabay writes:

>|> One of the big three freebies will end up in Oakland.  Either Maddux,
>|> Bonds, or McGwire.  Of the three, I'd bet on Bonds.  Put him in
>
>What makes you think the A's will not sign McGwire. 

The following does:

"I've been with Oakland for a long time, but I don't think I'll
probably stay here.  I can hit better at other ballparks, and the A's
might not be in a position to pay me when I become a free agent."
- M. McGwire.

"I'd like to play in Southern California next year." - M. McGwire.

"This place cost me 10 home runs in 1989, and about five every other
year." - M. McGwire.

"I think Jose and I should play in Wrigley." - M. McGwire.
(jokingly.)

"Oakland is not the only place to play baseball.  I'd like to play on
grass somewhere, but I have to think of my own career first - not the
success of the Oakland A's." - M. McGwire.

>He will probably be
>cheaper than Bonds or Maddux. And with the Eck mentioning loyalty as a
>big factor I would think that Mark will stay in Oakland. BTW didn't he
>take a pay cut last year after that .201 season. He sounds pretty loyal
>to me.  

He would've lost more in arbitration.  Thanks to the California
economy, I'll be taking a pay cut this year.  Loyalty certainly has
nothing to do with it.

-- 
*  Gary Huckabay  * "Win or lose, Twins forever." - John Stuart Mill           *
* "Not as hostile * "I wonder if Carl Rempert has cute buns." - G. Spira       *
*   as he seems." * "He's the most aptly named person on the net." - D. Kirsch *
*  - D. Cleary    * "Huck, Throw a strike!  That stays IN the park!" - D. Low  *
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: rickert@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (John H. Rickert)
Subject: Re: RP/PA for AL and NL (More bogus RP stats)
Organization: Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 19:51:42 GMT


In article <3498@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> dtate+@pitt.edu (David M Tate)  
writes:
> In article <1992Jul22.032825.13187@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu  
(Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes: 
> >RBIs are certainly lineup dependent.  So why don't we just take RBIs
> >as a percentage of opportunities?  Elias counts them for us, you
> >know...  Of course we are left with three percentages then.  But we
> >can use some sort of weighted average, if you like.
> 
> Does the Elias counting system take # of outs into account?  If not, I  
don't
> think it'll really work.  Two out RBIs are significantly harder.

They did the first year, but not afterwards.
I seem to recall that 2out RBI from 3rdbase were more difficult,
but that 2 out RBI from 1st and 2nd base were easier.
I'll see if I can remember to find the numbers.

john rickert
rickert@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball