From: millerm@oakhill.sps.mot.com (Mikemoe)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: MORE summaries about spanking
Date: 5 Nov 92 20:45:14 GMT
Article-I.D.: oakhill.1992Nov5.204514.28949
Reply-To: millerm@oakhill.sps.mot.com
Organization: Motorola Semiconductor Products Sector

Here are more summaries in answer to the following question....
if you were spanked as a child (not abused, tho) and you are opposed
to and/or choose not to spank your children, then why????


Thanks for your replies...this will be the last summary....so no more 
need to send me mail about this...Thanks again,

--mike

*******************************************


Well, you wanted to hear from someone who wasn't spanked abusively and still
is against spanking.  Here I am.

I can only remember one spanking as a child.  My parents were generally kind
and loving and I still get along with them well.

I am against spanking because:

	a. It teaches violence as a way to deal with conflict.

	b. It may damage the childs self esteme (why take the chance).

	c. It isn't necessary, there are other non-violent ways of acheiving
	the same objective. (As detailed in misc.kids)

	d. In the long run it is less effective than other methods of
	discipline.  When kids get to a certain age spanking no longer
	works.  Time outs work at any age (even mine!).

My parents in recent years have also started expressing regret for having
spanked us.  My mother says that she wouldn't do it if she were raising kids
now.  But, as it was, they were considered "too lenient".
was.  
By the way my brother, sister and I are all happy, well adjusted people.  I
don't think (extremely) limited spanking is harmful, I just don't think it's
helpful either.  And far to many people go overboard with spanking.  I preach
"no spanking" in part for those who don't understand moderation and will go
overboard in anything they do.  Let them go overboard avoiding spanking
instead.


*****************************


I was raised in a home where we were sometimes spanked.  I only
remember a few specific instances but I imagine there were more.
I don't think that I was abused as a child.  My parents spanked me
because they wanted me to behave better than I was, and that was a
technique they were using.  It was just one aspect of their discipline,
and we had a good enough relationship that all of the kids were pretty
well behaved most of the time.

I think spanking has its place.  There's a guy on the Net, Alan Y-something,
that talked about spanking a while ago, and it worked for him.  I think
it worked for his family because he uses it consistently, his daughter
knows that if she does X, she will get a spanking, and it sounded to
me like he didn't strike her in anger.

However, we don't use spanking as a discipline technique.

1) We haven't had to.  At the age of 3, Maddie is very responsive to verbal
reprimands and timeouts, and to misbehaviour having undesirable
consequences.

2) I find it much easier to teach her not to hit people
she is mad at if I can point out to her that we don't hit people,
that no one hits her when she is naughty.

3) However, we do get our
way because we are bigger.  When she was one, and we were teaching
her not to touch the stereo or the china cabinet, we frequently had
to pick her up and carry her away from the stereo or the cabinet. I
view that as a use of physical force to get our way, although even
people who abhor spanking would probably think that was an acceptable
thing to do to a one year old.

I can imagine myself hitting an adult whom I was very angry with, but
I think that is very disrespectful and I don't remember ever actually
doing it to anyone.  I can't imagine continuing a relationship - personal or
professional - with anyone who hit me.


************************************

> So, if you were raised in a home where your parents spank, and they didn't
> do so in an abusive manner, AND you oppose spanking, I'd sure like to hear
> briefly why you do.

I am not convinced that physical intimidation of young children is
not always done "in an abusive manner."

****************************************

I am the third of four children in my family.  My mother spanked my
older brother and sister.  I don't remember being spanked myself
but I believe that is because I was afraid of getting a spanking
so I was a *very* well behaved child.  I grew up with a fear of
authority figures (due partially also to seeing the nuns at school
whack hands with rulers when a student misbehaved).  I don't
remember seeing my younger brother spanked either.  I don't spank
my son (2 1/2 yrs. old) and my brother doesn't spank his children
(4 yrs. and 18 months - he also had another boy, his first child,
who died suddenly just before he turned 3 due to a rare diabetic
disease).  My fear of authority has caused me problems in life and
it has taken a lot of work to get over this fear.  
As I said, I don't spank my son.  Ever since he was an infant, when
he gets out of control, I stop and very calmly keep repeating to him
that he needs to calm down so we can talk.  It is amazing nowadays
how quickly he calms himself down.  I have always been very proud
of how well behaved my son is.  I can take him to a restaurant and
he sits and eats and doesn't misbehave.  I make a point to tell him
how proud he should be of himself afterwards because he was so well
behaved.  I try to explain things to him in simple terms so he 
understands why there are certain rules.  I have always stressed
prosocial behavior (no hitting because it hurts, comforting other
children when they are upset, sharing with other children, etc.)
I also believe strongly that adults model behavior to children.
This was just recently brought home to me again.  Back during the
summer, I had just had the carpet in the house cleaned because our
dog had some "accidents" (she was upset when my parents visited for
about 2 months and brought their dog).  That morning, my son had a
really messy poopy diaper (he wears a disposable one at night).  I
had taken it off, wrapped it up, and put it in the trash in the bathroom.
My son and I had been outside for a while after that.  The dog was left
in the house and got the diaper out of the trash and smeared it all over
the newly cleaned carpet.  I was furious! I grabbed the dog, dragged her
over to the mess and whacked her bottom.  I don't normally do that, but
I was really upset with the mess she made.  Well, the other night, my
son was eating a small candybar from Halloween.  He dropped the last
piece on the floor and the dog snatched it up.  My son turned around
and started hitting the dog.  He did it by grabbing her and whacking
her bottom.  I believe it was because he saw me do that to the dog
when she made the mess with the diaper.  My son and I then had a talk
about the situation.  I realized again that my son learns by seeing
what I do in situations.  
I remember asking my younger brother about his parenting techniques
since I think he is a *great* father.  Since his techniques are not
the same as our parents', I asked him where he learned them.  He told
me that as a child he remembered thinking about how he felt when being
disciplined and he would tell himself that he would remember it when
he had his own children and he would not do the same things to them.
So he thinks of how a child sees something and keeps that in mind
when dealing with his children.  His children have very good self
esteem (their pediatrician even commented on my nephew's self confidence
and ability to adjust to situations).
I am also influenced by a video of a study done with preschool age children.
The study looked at modeling.  There was one of those big, inflatable
clown-type punching bags, weighted on the bottom.  There were two groups
of children.  One group was exposed to seeing an adult whack the punching
bag.  The other group had an adult present in the room but that adult
did not punch the bag.  Children were left alone in the room for a short
period of time while the adult "went to get something".  The children
who saw the adult whack the punching bag were then observed doing the
same thing when the adult left the room.  The children who did not see
an adult whack the punching bag did not exhibit this behavior when left
alone in the room.  I saw that video a couple of years ago and it really
made me think about what I do in front of children (even if I did slip
up that one time that I whacked the dog).

***************************

Well, I was raised in a home where both my parents spanked, though
I can't remember my mother ever spanking me, I'm sure she did. And
I can only remember being spanked once by my father.

And I don't believe in spanking.

I have to say, however, that I don't really see anything wrong in
swatting a child on thier behind, though hopefully I won't use that
as disipline.  (We're about two weeks from our first, so I don't
really have any first hand experience.)

*******************************


I was hit often as a child and I do not intend to spank my son (now 21
months old).  I was not an abused child.  I have very few memories of
my father every striking me--in fact, I would venture to say he never
did.  My mother, on the other hand, slapped my sister and me often.
We were always expecting to be hit.  She has a volatile temper, and we
never knew what would set her off.

She is also the best person I know.  She is extremely moral, ethical
and intelligent.  She shows her love for us all the time.  I love her
very much.

But I do think she hit us too much.  I understand she was under a lot of
stress.  My sister and I are only 15 months apart and she had me when
she was 19 after getting married at age 17.  My father is quite a bit
older and was in medical training when my sister and I were young.  So
she was often alone with two screaming toddlers.  

My other sister is much younger than I am (7 years), and she does not
remember being hit hardly at all.

Anyway, now that I have my own child and I have done a lot of reading
and thinking on this subject, I have decided to try to never hit my
son.  I am not perfect, and I am sure there will be times when my hand
will fly out, but I am doing everything I can to avoid this.  So far,
I have been successful, although I am aware that my son is only just
entering the terrible twos.  But I have found the use of time-outs
(modified for his age), giving choices and logical consequences, and
following through with my threats of punishment (removal from a scene,
etc.) have been sufficient.

I think hitting a child is a form of psychological terrorism.  Of
course a parent must have authority over a child and a child must
accept that authority even if s/he doesn't always understand why.  But
parenting is a relationship of two equal people, not a master and
slave.  I resent that fact that I was hit so often as a child.  I know
there were times when my parents disciplined me in other ways (taking
away privileges, etc.), and you know what?  I can't even remember what
those punishments were, even though I am sure they got the desired
results.  I was not scarred by those punishments, but I was by being
hit.



---
+--------------------------------------------------------------+
| Michael Miller   millerm@oakhill.sps.mot.com                 |
| (512) 891-8582   Motorola - Semiconductors  Austin, TX       |
+--------------------------------------------------------------+
| Better not take a dog on the space shuttle, because if he    |
| sticks his head out when you're coming home his face might   |
| burn up.  -- Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------+