From: prs9k@brain.med.virginia.edu (Phil Scarr)
Subject: Re: Libertarianism...
Organization: Neuroclinical Trials Center, University of Virginia
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 02:54:14 GMT

In article <75795@stanton.UUCP> alvin@stanton.UUCP (The Chipmunk) writes:
>
>These two gentlemen:
>prs9k@brain.med.virginia.edu (Phil Scarr)
>PA146008@utkvm1.utk.edu (David Veal)
>
>Have been having another one of those lo-oo-oo-oo-ong discussions.
>

Yep...

>You two have been going back and forth on this nonsense, and neither one
>of you have gotten anywhere.  And neither one of you ever will.  Let me
>explain why.
>
>You are talking PAST each other.

Gee, really?  :-)

>
>You both have been bringing in these "definitions of society" which have
>nothing to do with the subject at hand ... ie, what you're trying to
>convince each other of.
>
>OK, humans are "part of society".  Fine.  That's true.
>
>OK, society does nothing without individual action.  Great.  That's
>wonderful.

I don't agree with this bit.  Sorry.

>
>BOTH of you are "right."  100%.
>
>But it doesn't answer the fundamental question:
>
>In being a human who is part of a society who "programs" the society
>whilst being "programmed by" the society, how do you answer the issue of
>HOW MUCH CONTROL DOES ONE HUMAN BEING HAVE OVER ANOTHER?
>
>The Libertarian answer to that is simple: NO control, via threat of
>initiation of force.  Ie, you can exercise your "free will," or you can
>be "one of the boys," but nobody's going to bob you on the head to
>influence your decision.

This is silly...  Why is the issue control?   How do you define control?
Coercive control?  Cooporative control?  What?  If you are refering to
the ability of one individual actor to get another individual actor to
perform some task, there are many possible ways to control irregardless
of the straw-man of "free will".  The most powerful control is social
control.  We can see the power of this control in situations where it is
conspiciously absent: the LA riots for instance.  Beatings and lootings
en masse were not the result of an agregate of individuals, but rather
what sociologists call "mob mentality", a form of sociopathology.  This
is reinforced by the fact that after the riots when normal social
conditions returned, many of the people who had looted stores returned
the merchandise.

>
>Now you tell me what "lupine children" has got to do with that?

Quite a bit, actually.  I suggest you go back and read my posts and try
to figure it out.  Lupine children are (extreme) examples of ALTERNATIVE
FORMS OF SOCIALIZATION.  Your very concept of what makes an individual
is socially constructed.  That is the point.

>
>Perhaps you can find societies, such as Iran, where their answer is ALL
>the control that ALLAH, or the Ayatollah, sees fit to inflict.  Then
>that brings up another fundamental question: HOW SUCCESSFUL WILL THEY
>BE, as a sub-species of Humanity, IN THE LONG RUN?
	  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Be careful with terms like this.  All Homo sapiens sapiens are part of
the same species.  This species divides itself socially into ethnic and
cultural groups, and is unique in that fact.

>
>Western Freedom is a relatively new experiment in the History of Man.
>It's proven so far to be a rave hit.  Future history may prove me wrong,
>but I think we're going to outlast the Ayatollah.

Well, the jury hasn't even been sequested on the issue of the sucess of
Western Freedom (whatever THAT is...).  300 years is a drop in the
bucket compared to the 3000 years of Egyptian society...

>
>== The Chipmunk
>INTERNET:alvin@stanton.cts.com
>Churchill's Commentary on Man:
>    Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the
>    time he will pick himself up and continue on.

	-Phil
-- 
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(--)== prs9k@virginia.edu === Phil Scarr === Department of Neurosurgery ==(--)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.sex