From: singram@eng.auburn.edu (Scott Ingram)
Subject: Re: Explaining anarchy to your friends?
Reply-To: singram@eng.auburn.edu
Organization: Auburn University Engineering
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 05:55:44 GMT

In article 1e146sINNjaj@uwm.edu, glenne@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Neuromancer ) writes:
>singram@eng.auburn.edu (Scott Ingram) writes:
> 
>>>The other position, is pure anarchy.  Pure selflessness in the name
>>>of freedom.    Freedom makes right.  So far I know of two takers of
>>>this position.  You and I.
> 
>>There is at least one other. My ex-roomate was the guy who got me thinking
>>about `our' form of anarchy. We were having a philosophical debate and a
>>point came up as to when it was ok to kill someone, and he said `never'.
>>This got us thinking `what about self-defense' and the debate quickly changed
>>to one over `rights' you have. 

>Just a question or two here, is other position the position that your
>friend held?  Is this position based on "rights" ?  I tend to lump a
>rights position in with the middle of the road position, which when
>you boil it down degenerates into might makes "rights".

Ok, at the time of the discussion, about a year and a half ago, I was
basically a pacifist, with the exception that I would use force to 
defend myself or my property if necessary, and my political view
was almost nihilistic, get rid of the government. But we started 
debating and he was a `pure' anarchist. Let everyone do whatever they want,
otherwise you can't be free. He believe's that he does not have the `right'
to stop someone from doing whatever they want. In fact he despises the word
`right' and thinks no one should think they have anything coming to them.
He is who got me thinking about anarchy and a combination of him, Robert
Heinlein, and various other factors have molded me into what I am now.
A true anarchist. 
>I believe
>rights lead to contradiction.  Because if someone violates your
>"rights" you seek justice, and so arises the motto 'with Liberty
>and Justice for all.'  To me this motto is a complete joke.  The more
>liberty you give to people, the less justice you will obtain.  You
>can't have both at the same time.  For me justice is a concept that
>should be thrown out the window altogether. 

Justice is only a nice way to say `revenge'.
 
>>Thanks for snapping that back into perspective. I currently am `alienating
>>myself' from my `friends'. Lets just say my social life is going to hell,
>>and I'm encouraging it. My friends have `gotten sick of my shit' and are
>>`tired of being patient with me'... as I have been very withdrawn these last
>>several days. But the thing is, I don't relate to any of them, so my
>>withdrawal isn't bothering ME, but the fact that they are upset does.
> 
>Heh, the last time I did anything with one of my friends was to see
>the movie 'Kafka'.  That was in spring.  However, I do spend a lot of
>time with my SO.  At this point in time, she is one of the very few
>people that I feel a real fondness for.  We cannot relate on an
>intellectual level, but simply because she has no use at all for
>thinking about life, and this makes it POSSIBLE for us to relate.
>She is a very private and independent person, distanced from
>her own emotions, and therefore does not feel threatened by my distance.
>To other people, my views would be something they could not live with,
>to her they do not matter.  Somehow we do not need understanding.
>Somehow trust has been able to overcome that barrier.  I am very
>glad of the trust I have been able to build with her.  It took a
>lot of time, the right person (meaning we had compatible emotional
>needs), and just hangin' in there.

You're lucky. I have one friend that I used to relate to well, but
things have changed and I no longer do. It sucks, becuase I am
still going through the motions of sharing my life with him, and he
goes through the motions of caring. But I think we both realized recently
that it is all a farce. I haven't seen him for several days, may not
see him for several more weeks. But so it goes.
 
>However, up to this point, I have had to live completely unable to
>share my awareness with anyone else.  These conversations have helped
>to fill in the pieces.

I'm glad. It seems odd to be so able to relate to a net.personality and 
not to real people. But then, the net is a wonderful screen that saves you
all sorts of pain and embarassment, so it is easy to be yourself and say what
you really mean. Talking with you has really helped me to know that I am not
quite as kooky as I sometimes thought I might be.
 
>>Nothing like baring your soul and getting it stepped on. And the bad thing is
>>it wasn't malicious. Just a blatant inability to understand me, even
>>after my best effort. So then I had ammunition for why I was cutting myself off
>>(and reason to use it) and proceeded to slam these people, my `friends' with
>>why I distance myself. I open up to people, and it hurts to not be understood.
> 
>>By cutting myself off I am protecting myself from that pain, which is something
>>that I need right now. But they still didn't understand even that.
> 
>I know the feeling all too well.  Aquaintences will come in and shoot
>the shit with a co-worker, and as on the previous letter I wrote you, I
>will continue to type away paying them no heed.  My silence disturbs
>them.  It's like I really am some sort of alien from outer space.  Every
>once in a while, I can hear thier conversation in the background,
>although I am not actively listening.  They say things to try to get me
>involved in the conversation.  Sometimes they will theorize about why
>I am ignoring them, rather loudly.  Most of the theories they offer
>are wrong.  I continue typing, feeling no need to correct them.  And
>so it goes.  

I have yet to understand my friends and acquaintances need to be around me.
It seems as if my ignoring them or not doing things with them is a personal
attack. I was screamed at by a friend's SO (I should probably explain this
relationship to make it easier. But I will just use the terms friend and SO
for now.) Anyway, the SO was yelling at me because I had come over and
ignored him. (The couple is gay). Now, he took this as me being rude. Maybe I was.
But I didn't try to be. I just didn't have anything to say to him. I
really didn't understand.`
 
>But perhaps neither of us truly lives the life of no fear, for while
>we do not fear death, emotional pain seems to be something that we
>still fear.  Again, there is no blame or fault to be associated with
>emotional pain, it is simply a consequence of interaction with other
>people.  Again, we need not fear it, just simply accept it, like death.

I tried thinking about this. The discussion I recently had brought this up.
They said I was terrified of interacting with people. I said it wasn't fear.
I don't fear that something bad will come of a relationship. I KNOW something
bad will come of a relationship. Just ask any of my old girlfriends. The pain
is there, for one or both of us. But I actively stay away from interacting
on any deep level with people now. Is it fear of pain? Or simply the desire
to not feel the inevitable pain of opening up. I don't know.

>At this point I am just having a real hard time dealing with other
>people's "expectations" of me.  It's easier just to avoid people
>altogether than having to deal with their expectations.   Just like
>the people I met at the Mennonite Church I had been attending.   It
>was cool at first, but then I could feel thier expectations growing
>for me, that they expected me to be some one who would be there every
>Sunday, and be an integral member of thier congregation.  I haven't
>attended since.   I'll probably go back there, but again, explaining
>to them more than likely will do no good.

I recently managed to build up a LOT of expectations from the people
around me. This summer I had an exceedingly painful relationship
with a girl I liked a lot. It started going downhill when I explained
both my religious and philosophical beliefs with her. After the standard
unacceptance, we got a little colder towards each other, but I really wanted
to get her to understand me, like me. Well. It didn't work and she dropped me
rather abruptly. Rather than deal with it I became very social and really
worked at being a nice and open guy. Which is what this girl said my problem
was: not being open and honest. Result, I am basically committing emotional
suicide, as I get more and more stares of incomprehension. And now, cutting
myself away, the pain continues in these people's expectations that I remain
the person that I was. What a wonderful Catch-22.

>It's just so damn wierd why people find it impossible to accept us
>as we are and leave it at that.  By expressing what I really feel
>or don't feel,  I seem to piss people off to the point where they
>build up a grudge against me, and this grudge is even harder to
>overcome.  It's like I just want to say, take it light, it's nothing
>personal, you just have to accept me as I am.  But there are so few
>people who can do that.  No, instead they mask their feelings and
>build up grudges. And like what you said, it's impossible to explain
>to them what's going on.  They can't even begin to conceive of it.

I think it stems from the fact that we are so out of touch from the 
standard. They just can't accept it, because they can't begin to understand.
If we had something that they could grasp, see as a solid point to
lock on to, then maybe They could accept us. But I don't think that
many people want to make the effort to accept me. Usually they either
just will not discuss these things with me, or try and show me that I am wrong.

>Well met, net-friend.  I apologize for all this incoherent rambling,
>it just seems like you opened up a dam and the words kept on flowing.

Yes, well met indeed.

Orion.