HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: They Might Be Giants
Date: 6 Oct 92 03:57:33 GMT
Article-I.D.: fnalf.1992Oct6.095733.1
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
NNTP-Posting-Host: fnalf.fnal.gov

In article <1992Oct5.220243.18968@usage.csd.unsw.OZ.AU>, kmj@newt.phys.unsw.edu.au (Morris Jones) writes:
> I recently saw a copy of the latest CD from "They Might Be Giants". It's
> called "Apollo 18", and has some interesting cover art. The booklet
> features photos from NASA projects from the sixties, and the back of the
> case claims that TMBG are "musical ambassadors for International Space
> Year." The ISY logo is also featured.
>              Is this an officially endorsed product? How long have these
> guys been interested in space?

I have it from reliable sources that just about anybody who's
breathing can get just about anything stamped as an "International
Space Year" project.

I seriously considered getting the sci.space FAQs branded as an ISY
effort before deciding that this would take more chutzpah than I cared
to display (if not more than I can actually muster).

Your message has given me second thoughts.

Bill Higgins, Beam Jockey              | The restaurant's architect
Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory  | said every effort had been
Bitnet:           HIGGINS@FNAL.BITNET  | made to build McDonald's
Internet:       HIGGINS@FNAL.FNAL.GOV  | 15th outlet in Italy 
SPAN/Hepnet:           43011::HIGGINS  | in harmony with Pompeii.
                                       | --Reuters story in *Chicago 
                                       |  Sun-Times*, 18 June 92
Xref: sparky sci.space:13639 sci.astro:10177 talk.politics.space:1299 alt.politics.bush:6850 alt.politics.clinton:7401
From: young@wattle.dg.oz (Philip Young)
Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro,talk.politics.space,alt.politics.bush,alt.politics.clinton
Subject: Re: Clinton and Space Funding
Date: 28 Sep 92 01:37:32 GMT
Followup-To: sci.space
Organization: Data General Australia

Government involvement, at least initially, is crucial because of the high
infrastructure costs.  No private outfit is going to ante up the billions
and billions (to misquote Carl Sagan) necessary since payback is in terms of
decades rather than years.
So, for instance, the US government creates NASA.  In an ideal world ;-} 
private commercial concerns use, and pay for, the infrastructural services,
and in the fulness of time NASA itself becomes self-funding, at which point 
the government sells it off, thus recouping the investment, and maybe making 
a quid in the process.
At least the US government had the vision and courage to get into the business,
although one could certainly argue about funding methods, priorities, etc.
Here, the government makes the odd soothing sound, but opposition by special
interest groups (and not just the usual assortment of those who would forego 
future investment dividends by spending the nation's seed money on consumption
today) means that nothing significant will be done for the foreseeable future.
Definitely my own opinion, but it is public domain, so feel free to adopt it.
-- 
Philip R. Young       
Data General Australia Pty. Ltd. 
 
Xref: sparky sci.space:13825 news.answers:3192
From: pgwres01@ucs.usl.edu (Fraering Philip G)
Subject: Re: Space and Presidential Politics
Organization: Univ. of SW Louisiana, Lafayette
Distribution: sci
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 20:19:46 GMT

In article <1992Sep30.184006.8937@iti.org> aws@iti.org (Allen W. Sherzer) writes:

\My sources within the Clinton campaign say that Clinton is likely to
/keep Goldin (who is, after all, a registered democrat). Wether a Gore
\run space council will support Goldin as well as the current space
/council is at best an open question.

Allen, I have a question for you:

How do you get "sources?"

--
Phil Fraering
pgwres01@ucs.usl.edu
---------------------
Disclaimer: Some reasonably forseeable events may exceed this
message's capability to protect from severe injury, death, widespread
disaster, astronomically significant volumes of space approaching a
state of markedly increaced entropy, or taxes.
From: jay@deepthot.cary.nc.us (Jay Denebeim)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: Monetary Magic
Date: 4 Oct 92 17:13:00 GMT
Organization: The Software Distillery
X-Newsreader: Arn V1.00 beta rel2

In article <1992Sep30.124342.18446@cs.ucf.edu>, Thomas Clarke writes:

> In article <BvAz6q.E64@zoo.toronto.edu> henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)  
> writes:
> > The way to handle this is to think capitalist, not socialist.  Sell the
> > Pershings at a competitive market price for sounding rockets of that size.
> > Use the revenues to fund a one-time-only launch-grant program for the
> > experimenters:  show your payload ready for launch, get a voucher good
> > for $XXX toward one launch, first come first served, until the money from
> > the Pershings runs out.  Same net result, but without the destructive
> > side effects on the industry.
> 
> Run that by a little slower. 
> A sells to B.  A gives money to C.  C buys from B.
> B has net near zero (buys and sells).
> C has net near zero (receives and buys).
> A has net near zero (gives and sells).
> Amazing.  Of course the taxpayer paid for the item in
> the first place.  But then the taxpayer received good value
> in the form of military security :-?

That's not how I read it.  I think Henry was saying to use the money from
selling the Pershings to pay for orbital, not sounding, missions.

--

 |_o_o|\\
 |. o.| || The           Jay Denebeim
 | .  | ||  Software
 | o  | ||   Distillery
 |    |//        Address: UUCP:     duke!wolves!deepthot!jay
 ======                   Internet: jay@deepthot.cary.nc.us
		 If the above bounces try: uunet.uu.net!oichq!deepthot!jay
                 BBS:(919)-460-7430      VOICE:(919)-460-6934
Newsgroups: sci.space
From: clarke@acme.ucf.edu (Thomas Clarke)
Subject: Re: Von Braun -- Hero, Villain, or Both? 
Organization: University of Central Florida
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 12:29:05 GMT

I recall reading that there was a plot to spirit von Braun out of
Germany into England.  The plot was busted and von Braun was set
for execution when someone whispered in the fuhrer's ear that if
he wanted his Vengance-2 weapon, he had better commute the sentence
of Herr von Braun.

Somewhat less reverently, I also recall the words to Tom Lehrer's
60's ditty:
"'The rockets go up. I don't know where they come down.
That's not my department,' says Werner von Braun."

--
Thomas Clarke
Institute for Simulation and Training, University of Central FL
12424 Research Parkway, Suite 300, Orlando, FL 32826
(407)658-5030, FAX: (407)658-5059, clarke@acme.ucf.edu
Newsgroups: sci.space
From: phfrom@nyx.uni-konstanz.de (Hartmut Frommert)
Subject: Re: Von Braun -- Hero, Villain, or Both?
Organization: Dept. of Physics, University of Constance
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 11:08:30 GMT

Mike M. Skala <MSKALA@ESRIN.BITNET> writes:

>>he wanted his Vengance-2 weapon, he had better commute the sentence
                ^^^^^^^^^^
I'm somewhat confused: I remember that my father told me (and I probably 
read) that A-4 and V-2 are acronyms for

A-4: Aggregat 4
V-2: Vergeltungs-Waffe 2 [Revenge weapon]

A-4 was the original name by the Peenemuende team; A-1..A-3 were preceeding
experimental rockets. It was later adopted for the rockets brought to the US.
Ther existed also plans for a 2-stage A-5 in Peenemuende.

V-2 was the military name for the mass produced weapon. V-1 was another
air weapon (I think a so-called "flight bomb", i.e. unmanned aircraft)
also used to attack the UK. The Peenemuende team had nothing to do with the 
V-1 to my knowledge.
--
 Hartmut Frommert                 <phfrom@nyx.uni-konstanz.de>
 Dept of Physics, Univ of Constance, P.O.Box 55 60, D-W-7750 Konstanz, Germany
                                           -- Eat whale killers, not whales --
From: wa2ise@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (robert.f.casey)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: Drop nuc waste into sun
Date: 7 Oct 92 03:36:50 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <rabjab.10.718414104@golem.ucsd.edu> rabjab@golem.ucsd.edu (Jeff Bytof) writes:
>>If my
>>schoolboy physics memory serves me correctly it would take more energy to
>>toss waste into the sun than it would to send it right out of the solar
>>system. 
>
>Actually, I think you can leave Earth orbit at less than solar
>system escape velocity, and perform a Jupiter gravity assist 
>manuever that will shoot you straight into the Sun.

Not sure that you really would want to go to the Sun with the nuke waste.
It would get vaporized and sprayed back (maybe at Earth if it is overhead
the impact point of the Sun).  Maybe the best thing is to put it in a parking
orbit beyond Jupiter.  So, it would be off Earth, but retrivable by future
generations if they decide they want some of it back.  This assumes there
is an answer to the problem of safety and cost of launching it off Earth
in the first place.
From: 18084TM@msu.edu (Tom)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: 21cm rights
Date: 28 Sep 92 22:43:01 GMT
Distribution: sci
Organization: [via International Space University]
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU


>>>Also, with strict property rights, you own whatever is over your
>>>land.  So, radio emmissions are, technically, pollution.  Anyone
>>>could sue for quiet in the 21cm band...in their neighborhood.

>>So let me get this straight.  Libertarians believe that I should be able to
>sue the local TV station for broadcasting radio waves in the air over my land?
>Can I also refuse to let airline pilots talk to ground control if they're over
>>my house?  If I lived nearer the equator, would NASA have to refrain from
>talking to astronauts?  Would the Moon undergo a radio blackout once a day?

Yeah, this kind of thing really does bring into question the definition of
'property'.  I won't even attempt that in this forum.

>Something wierder occured to me after I posted this.  Do Libertarians restrict
>this right to radio waves or does it apply to other frequencies as well?  For
>example, can I sue my neighbor for having his outdoor lights on if I want to
>sleep?  Or more interestingly, could major obervatories sue the inhabitants
>of nearby cities because of light pollution?

Well, I wouldn't presume to speak for all Libertarians, but, in strict
property rights, I'd think that would be a possible scenario.  What would
you do, if you had recently built a nice roll-off observatory in your
backyard, and your neighbor decided to install a 5000 watt spotlight, just
for kicks?  For that matter, there already are limitations on sound
'radiation', based on "free use and enjoyment."   Why not light, too?

'Course, whenever I'm out with the 'scope, my backdoor neigbor ususally
turns off his porchlight at my request :-)

In the case of 21cm, I'd bet the 'de facto' ownership scenario would be
more realistic, given some sudden Libertarian philosophy revolution.

-Tommy Mac                     .  "                  +
.------------------------  +                      *       +
|   Tom McWilliams; scrub       ,     .                        "        +
|  astronomy undergrad, at     *       +;.     .  '             There is
| Michigan State University   '                      .    "   no Gosh!
|   18084tm@ibm.cl.msu.edu                        '      ,   *
|       (517) 355-2178       ;  +  '                                 *
'-----------------------
From: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: Space and Presidential Politics
Date: 29 Sep 92 18:43:14 GMT
Reply-To: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com

In article <BvCFxF.5JJ.1@cs.cmu.edu> amon@elegabalus.cs.qub.ac.uk  
writes:
> As has been said before, the sum total of everyone's special  
> interests is the public interest, NOT what the political pundits  
> claim is the public interest. For some on this news group space  
> (read: the future) IS the defining issue. That is their right and  
> perogative. Who gives a damn what the Washington Post says anyway?

The problem with this is that I've met some space enthusiasts
over the years who would vote for Adolf Hitler if they thought
he would support a strong space program.  Almost ANY issue has
to be put in perspective, and balanced off against others. A
candidates view of space explorations is ONE issue by which I 
judge the candidate.  You can argue about whether it should be 
one of the most important ones or one of the minor ones, but it
certainly should not be the ONLY one.

--
Jim Mann            
Stratus Computer   jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com  
Newsgroups: sci.space
From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: What is this ?
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 17:25:00 GMT
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology

In article <BvE9n3.E8G.1@cs.cmu.edu> PHARABOD@FRCPN11.IN2P3.FR writes:
>>>Have the U.S. some kind of RPV with such performances ?
>>
>>If so, it is secret, so why bother asking?
>
>Because here in Western Europe, we don't like behavior in the KGB style,
>especially when it's over our heads... Well, maybe it was the Russians ?

Probably not... but you've missed my point.  I wasn't saying "why do
you care?".  I was saying "do you seriously think you'll get an answer?".
-- 
There is nothing wrong with making      | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
mistakes, but... make *new* ones. -D.Sim|  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry
From: 18084TM@msu.edu (Tom)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Space platforms (political, not physical :-)
Date: 28 Sep 92 23:11:53 GMT
Distribution: sci
Organization: [via International Space University]
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU


>> If [Clinton] gets elected after all but promising to raise taxes $1.5E11
>> BEFORE the election, think of the things he'll do once he's in.  Brrr...

>And what is Bush going to do if he gets back in now he's sold his soul to the
>Fundamentalists like Pat Robertson????

He'll waffle his way through, wrecking the well-being of the citizens while
helping his political buddies (those with $$).  Clinton's plan would only
wreck the well-being faster, while failing to help his political buddies
(the one's with pull).

>This is about a *lot* more than space funding which, quite frankly, is a side
>issue for *all* of these politicians.

Sure it is.  I see a lot of people talking about letting private funding do
what it can in space, wihtout gov interference.  That's what the LP
platform is all about.  All references to gov. 'helping' people, 'creating'
jobs, 'reforming' education, etc. are a side-issue to the LP, as all
these goals would be fulfilled by letting the citizens keep their $$, and
getting gov back to it's job:  Catching crooks, cleaning the environment,
or making the jerks who [explitive] it up fix it, and generally protecting
our rights; something 150 years of Rebublicrats have destroyed.

Has anyone heard any references to "Extopians"?

-Tommy Mac                     .  "                  +
.------------------------  +                      *       +
|   Tom McWilliams; scrub       ,     .                        "        +
|  astronomy undergrad, at     *       +;.     .  '             There is
| Michigan State University   '                      .    "   no Gosh!
|   18084tm@ibm.cl.msu.edu                        '      ,   *
|       (517) 355-2178       ;  +  '                                 *
'-----------------------
Newsgroups: sci.space
From: pjs@euclid.JPL.NASA.GOV (Peter J. Scott)
Subject: What was the Nova booster?
Reply-To: pjs@euclid.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, NASA/Caltech
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 17:06:42 GMT

I just read in the October _Final Frontier_, in an article about
NLS (or whatever they're calling it this month), about how there
were plans during the Apollo program to construct a booster even
larger than the Saturn V, called the Nova.  This monster would
have had 8 F1s on the first stage and some plans called for a
nuclear engine-propelled third stage.

It's odd to me that I haven't heard of this before.  Questions:
what was the payload to LEO?  To the lunar surface?  (It apparently
figured in plans for a moon base.)  What type of nuclear engine was
proposed?  How far did this thing get on the drawing board?

BTW, the article just mentions Nova in passing and I've repeated
everything about it, so don't ask me for more.  I've said it before, 
this is an excellent publication (my subscription is paid through 
December 2002!).

-- 
This is news.  This is your       |    Peter Scott, NASA/JPL/Caltech
brain on news.  Any questions?    |    (pjs@euclid.jpl.nasa.gov)
From: jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Josh 'K' Hopkins)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: what use is Fred?
Date: 6 Oct 92 00:29:05 GMT
Distribution: sci
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

amon@elegabalus.cs.qub.ac.uk writes:

>> the area in skylab where the crew exercise equipment was.....  With  
>all the
>> hatches open, within the US areas alone, the crew will be able to  
>have
>> great frisbee games or races....if they had the time.....
>> 

>If any of them went to CMU when I did, they are great hall frisbee  
>"football" players. You'd be amazed at the ricochet's you can get. I  
>hope the switches and screens are cut out for it :-)

Well, personally, I think Station hallways are plenty wide to play Frisbee 
without hitting the walls.  I'd be happy to demonstrate :-)  However, space
qualified Frisbees aren't much fun.  The backup power and guidance systems
add too much weight.

>> More importantly, as I alluded to in my prior post, a complete SSF  
>provides
>> a HUGE structure.  This structure is almost 300 feet long.....Thats  
>a
>> football field..... It also has power panels and radiators which  
>stick

>You mean it's SO big that it would have fit into the stadium of the  
>Coraopolis High School!! ;-)

Hmmmmm.  Now I see why NASA doesn't say things like "It's so big, it would take
Carl Lewis almost 9 seconds to run the whole length."  Doesn't quite have the
gee-wizz effect.


-- 
Josh Hopkins                                          jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
	 The views expresed above do not necessarily reflect those of
ISDS, UIUC, NSS, IBM FSC, NCSA, NMSU, AIAA or the American Association for the
                      Advancement of Acronymphomaniacs
Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro
From: techno@zelator.in-berlin.de (Frank Dahncke)
Subject: Re: V-2 anniversary
Organization: Puplic-Access-Xenix-System
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 92 16:37:32 GMT

In <28165@scicom.AlphaCDC.COM> wats@scicom.AlphaCDC.COM (Bruce Watson) writes:

>Trivia question: Which city was targeted and hit by the most number
>of V-2s?

Amsterdam, Holland.

							  Techno
-- 
| techno@zelator.in-berlin.de ||| Please do not e-mail from outside Germany ! |
| techno@lime.in-berlin.de   / | \  Hardcore ST user ! ====================== | 
| Nothing that's real is ever for free, you just have to pay for it sometime. |
|                                       (Al Stewart)                          | 
Xref: sparky sci.space:13812 sci.astro:10293 news.answers:3179
From: amon@elegabalus.cs.qub.ac.uk
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: What is this ?
Date: 30 Sep 92 16:50:56 GMT
Article-I.D.: cs.BvEI8B.Lxt.1
Distribution: sci
Organization: [via International Space University]
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU

>       21            290                       990       1000
>       22            300                       990       0000
>       22.5          300                       980       0000  Break  
lock
> 


I'd bet Mary Shafer would have a good guess at it. I'd say it looks  
like test data for a fire and forget air to ground missile. There are  
some interesting features features. I assume altitudes in MSL rather  
than AGL and airspeed rather than ground speed.

a) The vehicle climbs from initial lock at 7000 MSL to an altitude of  
11000 MSL at which point it initiates a dive in which it goes  
supersonic.

b) During the climb it initially goes up at 250fpm, then 500fpm,  
peaks at 2000fpm and drops off to two seconds at 1000fpm before going  
into the steep dive.

c) During that time the speed (air or ground is not specified) is  
changing. It seems to have two peaks with a period of coasting  
deceleration in between. This could indicate staging or throttling.
The speed peaks on the way down and then falls off, which suggests a  
powered dive and poweroff or burnout or an effect of increasing drag  
at lower density altitudes with a fixed thrust. That gets out of my  
depth. (Or heights as this case may be :-)

The low initial speed and altitude makes me think of some sort of  
helicopter launched anti-tank or antiradiation weapon. (I just don't  
see an F15 gallumphing along at 150kn at FL70 to launch any sort of  
ordinance...) Whether 7000 is low really depends on whether it is MSL  
or AGL, and if MSL then on the ground level MSL altitude. Antitank  
choppers would not usually attack at that altitude unless they were  
long range stand off weapons.

I do not believe it is an RPV unless it was either one whose wings  
fell off at 11000 MSL or an unusual new government method of  
ploughing furrows in a field. (Not all that less efficient than  
agricultural subsidies... :-)
Newsgroups: sci.space
From: knapp@spot.Colorado.EDU (David Knapp)
Subject: Re: Pioneer Venus Out of Fuel, Orbit Deteroriating
Keywords: Pioneer Venus
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 21:11:27 GMT

In article <1992Oct4.041300.1965@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov> baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>     ___    _____     ___
>    /_ /|  /____/ \  /_ /|     Ron Baalke         | baalke@kelvin.jpl.nasa.gov
>    | | | |  __ \ /| | | |     Jet Propulsion Lab |
> ___| | | | |__) |/  | | |__   M/S 525-3684 Telos | Einstein's brain is stored
>/___| | | |  ___/    | |/__ /| Pasadena, CA 91109 | in a mason jar in a lab
>|_____|/  |_|/       |_____|/                     | in Wichita, Kansas.
>



Latest news here (we have a PI on one of the instruments) is that it may
go down as early as Wednesday.  Drag will be increasing until that point
and will be exceeding the capabilities of the thermal blankets on Wed.

Telemetry will continue until the drag moves the antenna away from Earth.
Even then, there is some hope that the omnidirectional antenna may still be
able to relay some entry data.






-- 
David Knapp                                      University of Colorado, Boulder
Perpetual Student                                   knapp@spot.colorado.edu
From: roberts@phoenix.ocf.llnl.gov (Don Roberts)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: Von Braun -- Hero, Villain, or Both?
Date: 5 Oct 92 20:29:07 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory

billh@orion.oscs.montana.edu writes:

>	Von Braun is clearly an interesting and key historical
>figure in space flight. Has a decent biography ever been
>written? (in English?)

Per Charles Murray's excellent book on the Apollo Program:

Von Braun wrote an autobiography some while back entitled "I Aim for the
Stars." Word around NASA at the time was that the full-length title was "I
Aim for the Stars...But Sometimes I Hit London" (a little sick vengeance
weapon humor there).
--
 Dr. Donald W. Roberts
   University of California                                     Physicist
   Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory        Recreational Bodybuilder
   dwr@llnl.gov                                          Renaissance Dude

 The ideas and opinions expressed here do not represent official policies
 of Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory,  the University of California,
                or the United States Department of Energy.
Newsgroups: sci.space