From: murray@corner.wpb.fl.us (Murray Kahl)
Subject: Kahane
Originator: scj@israel.nysernet.org
Reply-To: <murray@corner.wpb.fl.us (Murray Kahl)>
Organization: Nysernet
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 00:19:05 GMT

From: warren@nysernet.ORG (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: Autopsy - Kahane and Rosenbaum

MK> In <1992Nov13.210236.23400@news.ysu.edu> ah287@yfn.ysu.edu (Murray Kahl)
MK> es:

>>Curious how Rav Kahane (z'tl) has become rather main stream while his
>>opponents are adopting the tactics that he was accused of so
>>vehemently.

MK> I see no evidence for the assertion that the departed "has become rather
MK> mainstream".

Quite the contrary, as we have politicians the likes of Ghandi advocating
expulsion, and keeping in mind that he has no halachic basis for his
policies. I also remind you that the inability of Arabs to live peacefully 
with Jews is ever prevalent and recognized.

>>I assume you feel the democratic process entitled Israel to ban Kach
>>from running for the Knesset and yet allowed Arab parties to
>>participate in democracy.

WB> I have stated before that I would prefer that Israel enact a
WB> constitution and a bill of rights and then allow even racist parties.
WB> Under these circumstances I would have supported the right of the
WB> departed to enjoy rights which he would deny to me.

Israel's basic laws and the changes made to it a few months ago are
equivalent to a constitution, as to your characteristics of racism, that 
is in the eye of the beholder and in this case it appears to be a bit 
jaundiced.

WB> parties currently in the Knesset - an Israeli Arab party whose
WB> platform was offering Jews a choice between being second-class
WB> citizens and being expelled would not need to be banned as all of its
WB> candidates would find themselves in jail.

Exactly whom do you feel the Arab members of the Knesset represent if not 
the PLO? Unfortunately for us, their intentions are not that kind, as to 
make Jews second class citizens. 
All one has to do is ask the family of Helena Rapp, the 15 year old school 
girl who was just sliced up at a bus stop in Bat Yam.

MK> It is also incorrect to act as if the departed's tactics consisted
MK> merely of parlimentary efforts.  His opponents confined themselves to
MK> legal means, something that the departed did not.

While your statement is all inclusive and clearly not true, Kahane was a
saintly figure, the victim, the scapegoat, the paradoxically gentle man of
violence with a weapon in one hand and a mea culpa in the other. I revere him
as such, as a figure of courage, somebody whose moral substance makes the
rest of us feel like moral shadows; it seems like an impertinence when people
now begin to do what he did 20 years ago.
If you feel his opponents confined themselves to legal means, you have given
an entirely new definition to the phrase.

MK>nothing more than respect from his Muslim opponents and displayed a an
MK>unusually strong ahavat Yisrael.

WB> I heard the departed speak on a number of occasions and all I heard
WB> was hate: hate for Muslims, hate for Jews who opposed him (at his
WB> funeral, the chant was "Death to the Arabs!  Death to the leftists!").
WB> He did not ask for "respect from his Muslim opponents", he demanded
WB> that they either subjugate themselves to him or leave.

The fact that your hyperbole is couched in terms of Shalom Achshav makes it
all the more apposite. Should a man espouse a moral and religious philosophy
he is not prepared to live for, or in extremis die for? What did Horace mean
when he wrote the lines dulce et decorum est pro patria mori? It is sweet and
right to die for your fatherland and so Kahane did. What do his followers ask
even more savagely, when they identify this safe and consoling rhetoric at a
safe distance from the areas Kahane's battles took place.
His words were meant to outrage rather than to console. They were spoken out
of the shock of the deception incurred by conventional expression -- in
particular, the expression that dying for your religion and country is
beautiful.
I too have heard him many times and NEVER did I hear him utter the words you
post above. It is pointless to hear your remembrances as only you can verify
them; however, we do have the ability to refer back to his books and they do
NOT bear out your statements.
I challenge you to substantiate that Kahane demanded that his foes subjugate 
themselves to him or leave. In contrast to your words, I heard him say many 
times that he does not want their love, he wants their respect.