From: mhirsch@volkl.princeton.edu (Michael Hirsch)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: kotegaeshi (was Re: Finishing techniques)
Date: 5 Jan 93 17:17:33 GMT
	<1993Jan4.131042.28152@ms.uky.edu>
Organization: Princeton University Department of Computer Science
Originator: news@nimaster

>>>>> On Mon, 4 Jan 1993 18:10:42 GMT, cyeomans@ms.uky.edu (Charles Yeomans) said:
CY> In article <1992Dec29.151849.3615@crash> jfrost@crash.cts.com (Julian Frost) writes:
>ngIn article <1992Dec29.004930.13723@cbfsb.cb.att.com> osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X) writes:
>>In article <1992Dec21.131622.10306@cs.mun.ca> matthew@cs.mun.ca (Matthew J. Newhook) writes:
>>>
>>>Well, I don't know about you, but the only reason I move when these
>>>techniques are applied to me, is so that my wrist doesn't get ripped
>>>off.  The point of leverage of these attacks is at the wrist, so
>>>therefore if you don't move the wrist gets broken, and there is no more
>>>leverage.
>>
>>	What's this about the writs?  Ugg... kote gaeshi is NOT a wrist
>>	technique, but one for the forearm.  What is practiced widely
>>	these days is a corruption, and is easily escaped.  

CY> Also, I'm not sure what is meant by "getting out of kotegaeshi.
CY> It isn't a hold or a throw, I think; it should be a break,
CY> properly performed.  It tends to be a throw in the dojo, but that
CY> is because uke throws himself to flip out of the break.  On the
CY> other hand, I can hold most people with kote hineri, especially
CY> the tenkan variant.

CY> Kotegaeshi could also be called "outward wrist twist" - one twists
CY> the wrist in the direction of the thumb by holding your friend's
CY> hand with your thumbs on the back of her hand , all sets of
CY> fingers pointing in approximately the same direction and then
CY> twisting (actually with the hips)

One of the problems with discussions like this is that even though the
throws have the same name, and even common antecedents, they can
evolve to different throws.

I was originally trained to do the throw the way Charles described
it.  To say it isn't a wrist technique would be crazy.  My current
dojo is a Kokikai Aikido school (a splinter from Ki Society) and the
way they do it barely involves the wrist at all.  They grab the wrist
(not the hand) and never bend it.  I was criticized for bending the
wrist ("because it doesn't work") when I first started training with
them.

Both styles have the same goal, however.  To control uke by connecting
to uke's center.  The more traditional approach is to take the slack
out by bending uke's wrist.  The Kokikai aproach requires you to move
uke's arm more to achieve the same effect.

The two different style appear different enough when first taught that
if they were taught in the same school they would need two different
names.  But both are just the basic (kihon) for the more advanced (or
realistic) form that might be used in actual conflict.

You can't do the traditional kotegaeshi against someone with very
strong wrists, it requires modification of the technique (actually, it
makes it easier cause by holding their wrist tight the connection to
uke's center is automatic).  Similarly, the Kokikai form requires
modification against a fast attack as nage doesn't have time to move
very far.  When done against a very fast attack with stiff wrists, the
two styles end up almost identical.
--


Michael D. Hirsch		mhirsch@cs.princeton.edu    
Computer Science Department	Voice: (609) 258-1751       
Princeton NJ, 08544		FAX:   (609) 258-1771       
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts