From: shao@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (SHAO CHUNG-SHANG)
Subject: Re: Yes, Let's Not Talk about History (Was: Re: BANANAS)
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 00:05:26 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.070858.18168@news.columbia.edu> cwt2@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Charles W Tang) writes:
>shao@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (SHAO CHUNG-SHANG) writes:
>>what kind of the respect do you expect? like you said in politics.
>>i believe all of us agree we must respect each other.  what is the
>>meaning of 'respect' here?
>
>Simply, in two categories:
>
>1) for the policy makers: don't continue making silly rules like "we
>can only allow x hours of Taiwanese programs to be broadcasted a day"
>(no respect for the Taiwanese people and language.)  Get rid of those
>"Tibet representatives," "Beijing representatives," "Heilongjiang
>representatives"...etc. who together can easily out-number the
>Taiwanese representatives in deciding policies which are to be
>implemented *in Taiwan*..... 

1. i agree the issue of the tv program.
2. gee.  have you ever read the newspapers from taiwan?  where comes the
   beijing representatives?  the representatives who are through the
   election always outnumber the special representatives largely.
3. in the national assembly and the legislative yuan, the bsr outnumbers
   wsr, i believe.  i do not have number on my hand.  if we still have
   to discuss this issue, one of us must give the numbers here.  otherwise
   the discussion is meaningless.

>2) for "ordinary" people: after being here for 40+ years, it's time
>to acknowledge that you're Taiwanese!  Sure, you can say "I'm originally
>from Zhejiang" or "my parents are from Shanxi," but do acknowledge that
>you *are* Taiwanese.

sorry, i don't think that is not 'ordinary' people, especially for those
people who grow up through tranditional chinese culture.  however, if
'taiwanese' means people who live in taiwan, then there is no bsr or wsr.
everyone is taiwanese in taiwan.  will you give us another definition?

>>bsr has no voice?!  sorry, i really can't agree with you in this.
>>i hear holo very often.  when our president speaks, i am listening to
>>a bsr's voice.  bsr has no voice?!
>
>Hello?  Is the President the law-making body?  Is he the policy
>maker?  What's Li4-fa3-yuan4 for?

yes.  since he is alos the president of the kmt.  theoratically, every
policy is from his brain or must be approved by him.  and every law
must be signed and announced by him.

let's play a mathematic estimation game here, to show you that the
law makers are controled by the so-call bsr.  ddp has controled 20% seats
in the national assembly, and the kmt controls the other 80%. ok.  there
is no so-call wsr in the ddp, so we can assure that the so-call bsr has
the 20% here.  now, let's assume there is only half of the kmt who are
so-call bsr (i believe the percentage is much more than this, but this is
a game only.)  there is 40% kmt seats are controled by the so-call bsr.
now, add that two parts together.  we have 60% so-call bsr in our national
assembly.  ok, ok, this is only game. 8)

>>our people can keep so long.  i don't think so.  if the government
>>apologies to 228 event for the mistakes the government having made
>>40 years in that event, do you think you have had the 'respect'
>>you want?  no, i suppose you will say, it is not only this, there are
>>more, such as ...  so, it is not so simple.
>
>Obviously a simple apology is not enough.  The altitude must change.
>But, at least, by apologizing, we're heading toward the right
>direction!

what direction?  if you mean the government must take the responsiblity
on what it has done, i agree with you.  but this attitude is only on the
228 evant.

>>you keep saying bsr should get respect.  do those wsr second generation
>>who win the elections and enter the government have your respect?
>
>Sure!  As I said, whoever identifies with Taiwan and genuinely cares
>for Taiwan is as Taiwanese as any other Taiwanese.  Why would I have
>any problem with a 2nd-generation WSR candidate?  

very good.  can they cares the places where their parents from, also?

>>let's go back to the history as you suggest.  do you think the second
>>generation of your family who moved to taiwan claimed they were
>>'taiwanese'?  so fast?
>
>Well, you'll have to ask them yourself.

my answer is no.  the tranditional chinese culture which your ancestors
were taught won't let them think they were taiwanese.

>I haven't seen *any* 2nd-generation Chinese, Germen, Irish... born
>here in the US not call themselves "American."  If you really care
>about and feel for your birth place, I don't see why it's so hard
>to ren4-tong2 that place.

they also think they are still part of chinese, german, and irish...
why can't we care the both places?  like american jews and italians?

>>evan if i don't claim i am a taiwanese, why can't i accept taiwan?
>
>Okay.  I meant to use the verb "ren4-tong2," but I couldn't think
>of any equivalent English word, so I used "accept."  If you ren-tong
>Taiwan, why can't you call yourself Taiwanese?

the question is not if i call myself as taiwanese, it is if
the so-call bsr treat the so-call wsr second generation as the taiwanese.
it is not the question that if the so-call wsr second generation accepts
taiwan, it is the question that if the so-call bsr see the so-call wsr
second generation as the part of the taiwan.  'ren-tong' is a two-way
interaction.  if A 'ren-tong' B but B doese not 'ren-tong' A, the thing
won't work.  think about the ddp, why can't mr. lin, the so-call wsr second
generation and think he is taiwanese, stay in ddp?  this is the key of our
problem.

>>for example, a boy is from taichung, why can't he accept taipei?
>>must he claim he is taipei person to accept taipei?  strange.
>
>This is indeed a rather strange example -- it has nothing to do
>with what we're talking about here.
>
>Let me try one: I was born and raised in Kaohsiung.  I proudly call
>myself a "Kaohsiung'er," although neither one of my parents is from
>Kaohsiung.  Now wouldn't you think it's "strange" if I REFUSE to
>think of myself as a "Kaohsiung'er," but a, say, "Penghu ren"
>when in fact I've never even set foot in Penghu?

first, you did not answer my question.  what if you were not born ther?

what if your neighbors do not 'zen-tong' you as a 'kaohsiunger', evan 
you claim you are?  why does 'hakka ren' still claim they are 'hakka ren'
for so many generations living in taiwan?  and most of us also treat
them as 'hakka ren', different from the so-call bsr?

>>what if your relative marries to an american who still claims oneself
>>as an american, do you accept?  is there any relation between 'accept'
>>and 'claim'?  strange.
>
>I didn't quite understand this.  But anyway, I "naturally" feel that
>I'm a "Kaohsiung ren," and so I *am* one.  I don't need to "claim"
>that I'm a Kaohsiung ren.  But when I'm asked where I'm from, I'd
>say "Kaohsiung" without any hesitation.

the questio is simple.  do you 'zen tong' an american as part of your
family member?  

>>no offence.  just want to show that the question above is not the
>>point in the conflict between bsr ans wsr.
>
>Yes, it has A LOT to do with the conflict between BSR and WSR.  If
>you're born and raised here in the US, but you don't speak English
>and don't think of yourself as an American, yet you live here on
>the American soil all your life -- you drink American water, eat
>American bread, receive American education, make American money --
>but you still think that you're not an American.  What do you suppose
>other Americans would treat you?  (I suspect that they would tell
>you to "go back to wherever you think you're from.")

the most important question is that evan i speak the english and do
everything they do, will they treat me as an american?  this is 
improper example, i think.  the so-call bsr and the so-call wsr are
the same people who inherite the same culture environment in taiwan.
it only can be mentioned as colorado residents and the california
residents.

>-Charles

cs shao.