From: dgp@atlas.wustl.edu (Don Porter)
Subject: Re: Stranded on an Island (fo
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis Mo.
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 16:42:06 GMT

[ about teenagers who don't know where babies come from...]

<1992Jul17.172353.20813@wuecl.wustl.edu> (Don Porter) writes:
>> Then could you name a few?  Or point to some source indicating such
>> ignorance?  Just how widespread do you claim it is?

>> Forgive my skepticism, but this sounds like one of those things
>> that "everybody knows" about the inner city, many of which turn
>> out to be quite false.  

<-8dmkpk@lynx.unm.edu> (shannon the mouthy pushy ranting broad) writes:
> ok, i was listening to a show on NPR some time last year, where the
> reporter INTERVIEWED some people on the street in NYC, and this is one
> of the things that they discovered - that there are "surprisingly
> many"  (no figures were given on the news show - i believe it was
> "All Things Considered") who thought that babies were something
> that just happened to girls when they became teenagers.

OK.  I may have misunderstood your original article.  I didn't
save it, and you didn't quote it, so I can't go back and check.
I thought you were claiming that there were large numbers
of teenagers who had no idea where babies come from.  It is
my contention that all teenagers know that babies are born
by women who have had sex.  They are not found in cabbage
patches, brought by storks, or sprung forth from the foam
of the sea.

On the "just happened" comment above, I can interpret that two ways.
One, these teens actually believe that babies magically start
to grow inside girls once they reach a certain age -- they
know nothing about the connection to sex.  I doubt this one.
Two, teenage pregnancy is so common in their community that
it has become a cultural norm for them, even to the point
where those who are not pregnant are viewed as unusual.
In this sense, teenage pregnancy "just happens" to teenage
girls in the same sense that my parents' hinting indicates
that getting married "just happens" to men my age.  An unwise
cultural expectation, not an ignorance of the basic facts of 
the matter.

> a prevalent attitude amongst inner city, low
> socioeconomic level young men is that children are a trophy and
> sign that you are a man.  one of the rites of passage to becoming
> a man is to get a girl pregnant.  if one does not have a child
> by the time he is around 16, it makes him look bad to his peers.

This indicates to me that we are indeed talking about an
attitude, not ignorance.  How can pregnancy be a sign of virility
if these teens don't know that sex causes pregnancy?  I guess
they do know the facts of life after all?

You see, the trouble here is not ignorance of the facts.  The
trouble is the unwise, destructive choices these teens make
in spite of their knowledge of the facts.  This is why I 
doubt so much that "education" will be the kind of cure-all
that so many people want to wish it to be.

> i'm afraid if you've never seen this attitude you haven't been
> around enough.  i see it too often for me to think it's
> not a big problem.  not flaming you, but this is reality.

As I said, I misunderstood your claim.  We are talking about
an attitude here, not ignorance. 

> i personally think they can trash my values all they want,

But don't you see?!  These are not "your" values.  These
are simply values which lead to happier healthier families.
As you say, children are not trophies.  Attitudes that
treat them as trophies are wrong and destructive.
When you advocate "your" values, you are not trying to impose on
others, or control others.  You are simply giving them
good advice.  Wisdom is the possession of no one.

>but then, maybe it's a _________ thing; i don't understand.
>                       ^^^(insert some unknown ethnic descriptive here)

Please don't fall for that crock of shit.  Ideals have no color.

> forgive my skepticism, but will you please tell me of some
> claims about inner city culture which have turned out to
> be false.  i don't know of any - but that may be because
> no one really cares enough about the problems to make things
> up about it to garner support.

"Everybody knows" the inner city is filled with criminals.

FALSE.  The inner cities have terribly high crime rates,
but they are filled with law-abiding, hard-working Americans
who are the victims of these crimes.

"Everybody knows" that welfare only goes to unemployed,
black women with large numbers of kids who stay on welfare
for life and bring up their kids to get on it, too.

FALSE.  Most welfare goes to white people.  Most welfare
goes to a family for only a period of several months,
tiding them over through a rough period, just as welfare
was intended to do.  Studies show (I wish I could quote
one.  You'll have to trust my memory here) that families
on welfare have no more children than any other families.
About the only accurate part of this stereotype is that
welfare does go in large part to single women with
children, thanks to the feminization of poverty the last
20-30 years have brought us.

"Everybody knows" that inner city teenage girls only get
pregnant because they're too dumb to know any better.

FALSE, as discussed above.

> if you can give me evidence which counteracts that which
> i've seen with my own eyes and heard with my own ears
> please do so.  the majority of my information is first and
> second hand and from reliable news sources.  is that good
> enough?

Certainly.

|   Don Porter | dgp@saturn.wustl.edu | Washington University in St Louis   |
|  "The effect of liberty to individuals is, that they may do what they     |
|   please; we ought to see what it will please them to do, before we       |
|___risk congratulations." -- Edmund Burke._________________________________|