From: cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (Chris Luchini)
Subject: Re: Activist shot at Berkeley Chancellor's home
Reply-To: cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu
Organization: High Energy Physics, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 22:28:50 GMT

In article <kyln=6p.adamsr@netcom.com>, adamsr@netcom.com (Rick Adams) writes:
>>	"Never mind if the person is unarmed?"  But that is the point.  Even
>>weaponless people kill.
>>
>	Not very often compared to those with guns. An unarmed 100 lb woman
>may _hurt_ you, but she is rather unlikely to kill you - or, for that
>matter, to WANT to kill you. If she was homicidal she would probably own a
>gun!


	Really? I have a woman friend who was attacked on the street in
	SF by a beggar that tried to throw her into traffic when she did
	not respond to his solicitations. She broke a number of his
	ribs, ruptured his liver, and knocked him out. (he did recover, and
	went to jail after a several month hospital stay) She weighed
	104Lbs last time I saw her on the scales.

	The only way I would assume that a 100 lb woman attacking me
	was unarmed was if she was stark naked. I've been attacked on the
	street (never by a woman, BTW) and in only 1 of the 6 instances
	was there a weapon. However with the presence of a weapon, the calculus
	of the confrontation changes dramatically. A secondary
	consideration is unarmed combat training. If I don't know otherwise
	I will assume that a woman attacking me has such training, and as
	such is a danger to my life. 

	Now in the strange case where I have an unexplained attack by
	a 100 lb woman who is stark naked, and I know via divine sources
	she is not trained in martial arts, yes, I would not feel justified 
	in shooting to stop an attack. I'd probably just treat her as I
	would a child having a temper tantrum.

	Now, given the situation that was described, the cops should have
	tried to talk her out of the house, etc. If there were no hostages
	what's the point of going in? Just wait her out, yes it may take
	a week, but no one gets hurt. On the other hand, once the cop
	is in the room with her, he is justified in responding
	to a lethal threat if one exists ie simply that she had a sword
	and was in the house does not make her a lethal threat. If she
	advances while armed, etc, then she is a lethal threat. If she is 
	unarmed and advances on a drawn gun, that gives him reason
	to believe that she is a threat, because such action is 
	irrational, and/or an indication that she is armed and 
	intends to do bodily harm. 

	Have you ever been attacked? From your attitude, I doubt it. You
	seem to think that a serious attack by an adult is somehow equivalent
	to a schoolyard fight. 'Taint so. 

>
>	Even Bernard Goetz was eventually convicted, and he was attacked by
>FOUR hoods he had REASON to fear, not by one individual who is not armed!
>
	He was only convicted of unregistered possession of a handgun. 
	He was aquited on all other charges.

>	No, given the extensive data on negotiating with the mentally ill,
>he should have stayed out of the building until qualified professionals
>(i.e., a negotiation team or a SWAT team) could affect an arrest.

	I agree totally. It sounds like yet another case of a cop out of
	control.

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