HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lix@BUCRSB.BU.EDU
Subject:      Re:  Returned mail: User unknown (fwd)
Reply-To: lix@BUCRSB.BU.EDU
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 20:15:20 GMT
Comments: cc: CHINA-NT@uga.cc.uga.edu

>hate the beauraucdracy, we want to live well, but why so few CSS think about
>the strengthening and developing of the poor country?

How do you know? From my observation, many, if not most, of CSS are thinking
about that. The key point is, if one gets greencard, the CG will treat you
better (Red Six Classes, free of AIDS test, etc.) and you can do more for
developing our poor country.

>Do you think it's
<reasonable? Just think, so big a country, so many CSS are overseas! I don't
<think it's reasonable! We chinese!

100,000, even 200,000 oversea is not "so many" to a country like China. I
hope it could be 1000 times more.

>I love China, even I hate beauraucracy, I want to be rich, but China is my
<motherland! I am very sorry to think about situation in China and the situation
<of CSS at the same time.

That is good. But it is also good if someone wants to stay, so far he/she
does not lie.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: Jin-hua Yuan <YUAN%NIEHS.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu>
Subject:      "goodwill" of goverment
Reply-To: Jin-hua Yuan <YUAN%NIEHS.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu>
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 21:27:00 GMT

Never trust the killers, muderers, liers and blood stained black hands!
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: ylq@lems23lems.brown.edu (Yan Shen)
Subject: Re: response to Mr. W. Dong and Mr. T. Bao's comments
Organization: Laboratory for Engineering Man/Machine Systems
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 16:02:20 GMT

In article <1992Sep4.014949.28719@athena.mit.edu>, zhuh@athena.mit.edu (Hui Zhu) writes:
|> |> 
|> |> |> What's the hell reasons should we keep the same Constitution for more than 200 years?
|> |> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> |> |> or even more?  You want the Constitutions of Qing dynasty or Mingguo? They are
|> |> |> really old though. :) :)
|> |> |> 
|> |> 
|> |> It prevents any politican from thinking that he is above the constitution and the 
|> |> law. Is this the fundamental difference ?
|> 
|> 
|> Really? Why?  
Deng XiaoPing can change the Constitution of China overnight if he wants. G. Bush 
cann't. 
|>So keep the Constitution of Qing or Mingguo will make this
			^^^^^^^^^^^
|> "fundamental difference"? :)
Are you talking about the Constitution which could be overhauled by a three-year-
old while he was pissing. 

|> 
|> The fact is NO CONSTITUTION WILL STAY INTACT FOREVER.  
|> 
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: XIAOJIAN@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject:      Re: China's Interests
Reply-To: XIAOJIAN@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 07:48:00 GMT
Comments: cc: china-nt@uga.cc.uga.edu

Tell us how you can distinguish CCP from normal Chinese to be punished.
Most CCP members are normal people. And in the former Soviet Union, almost
all original CCP high officers have kept their position by democratic
election.

I could see from your last post that you are a revolution advocate rather
than a peaceful evolution advocate. You want to punish not only CCP but
also their sons, how about their relatives and friends? and those who
wanted to stay in CCP but got kicked out of CCP such as Fang,Lizhi and
Liu,Binyian? :-)


And those who followed Fang,Lizhi's advice that joining CCP in order to
change its color?



William Deng
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: lix@BUCRSB.BU.EDU
Subject:      Re: Sun Zhong-Shan, Shen Tong, Wong Jin-Wei and others...
Reply-To: lix@BUCRSB.BU.EDU
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 12:58:01 GMT
Comments: To: CHINA-NT@uga.cc.uga.edu

Poet like heroic show:-)  John Xu wrote:
>It is obvious who jeopardizes
>the Sino-US relationship.  The ball is at CCP's hand.

That is right. The ball is now at CCP's hand, along with 23 disketts and
(?) video tapes of "underground pro-D activists".

The question is why ST should send the ball and the tapes into CCP's hand?
To those on the video tapes and disketts, this is a sherely cheat and betray,
because this is a well planned action. Some HK friends in Boston told me:

>What is more disgusting is the number of innocent people who got
<involved.  Shen got a lot of contacts of underground prodemocracy
<people from recent exiles and he contacted and interview many of them
<on videotapes.  These tapes are now with the Chinese government.  One
<of the woman who was arrested with him is the wife of Tiananmen student
<Hsiung Yin (Hung Yim).

>Apparently Shen did not tell people what his motives were, and
<promised that these tapes will help the cause of democracy in some way.
<He was in fact banking on making a documentary, and no doubt has some
<profit motive behind.

Another friend very closed to the China Democracy Fund said:

>they are waiting for ST to be released and as soon as he is,
<China Democracy Fund will pay her to fly to either Germany or Hong Kong
<and spend some time with ST there.

But how about those on video tape?????
Can they all go to Germany and Hongkong together????

Anyway, as the HK friends suggested:

>Be that as it may, the arrest is illegal by international human
<rights standards, and as said by somebody before:  'I don't agree with
<what you say, but I'll defend your right to say it with my life',  I
<think we have no choice but to issue a statement condemning the arrest,
<not only of Shen, but more importantly the dozen or more people who
<will be arrested sooner or later.  They are the ones who were exploited
<and face imminent danger.  Shen will most likely get off free and rich.

I heartfully agree with those HK friends. I appeal IFCSS to pay more attention
to those on video tape and disketts. International pressure should make Chinese
Government promise:

No Punishment, No Investigation to those on tape.
From: xiaofei@acsu.buffalo.edu (XiaoFei Wang)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
Subject: Re: Hand NBC an 8-year jail sentence
Date: 28 Aug 92 16:29:58 GMT
Organization: Physics Dept, State U of New York at Buffalo, Buffalo, NY 14260

/* From the keyboard of Yuan M Jiang <ymj1@CUNIXB.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU> */:
:
: Great, Beijing Daily has finally followed IFCSS' call.
:

Excuse me. When did IFCSS have such a call?

Criticisms are welcome but in order to have it to work, one has to get
the facts straight. 

-- 
xiaofei@acsu.buffalo.edu | Subscribe Chinese Poem Exchange and Discussion List 
mail LISTSERV@UBVM.BITNET with "SUB CHPOEM-L 1st LastName" in the MESSAGE BODY
InterNet Address: UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU | Posting in UUENCODED GB and BIG5
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: utingli@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Tingli Pan)
Subject: Re: China's "interest"
Organization: Educational Computing Network
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 14:03:54 GMT

In article <Bu19An.H8B@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> "~{QG9p~}" <yawei@BRONZE.UCS.indiana.edu> writes:
>There seem to be some VERY confused people on CHINA-NT.
>
>Let's assume that there is such a thing as "China's interest."  Let's
>assume again that getting MFN status from the US is in the best of China's
>collective interest.  Let's assume further that anyone endangering
>China's "interest" should be condemned.  There, have we had enough of
>a common ground to carry out a conversation?
>
I really appreciate ST's courage of going back to China and challenge
the authority in a peaceful way. I believe I won't be a brave man as him
had I had such kind of chance. And the CG deserves such kind of
challenge although they are the legal government now.

And I don't think ST's action will affect much of the MNF or Green Bill
queueing in the US government. The politicians from both sides knows
pretty well that it is a political show. (whether it is ST's original
intension or not, I don't know). Of course both sides will play a
political show too until ST is sent back to US. US will condemn the
violation of human rights of Chinese Government, while CG will show the
whole thing is a plot by CIA, or any other reactional parties. 

>Now, who was it that really "endanger"  China's "interest?"  Was it
>Shen Tong in trying to set up a Democracy for China Fund office, or
>was it CCP's arresting Shen Tong?  Isn't the answer obvious?  [Oh,
>Come on!  Supposed CCP just leave Shen Tong alone instead of arresting
>him, then the MFN status wouldn't be endangered, right?  Why can't
>CCP just leave the kid alone?  What could he have done? ]
>
>Now that we have firmly established who was it that actually endangered
>China's "interest", would William Deng and his cohorts join me now
>in condemning the CCP's silly acts?
>
I don't think CCP's acts is silly. To them, it is a preventive one.
After then send ST back (If, a big if) the whole story goes to a full
stop. And it is hard to say arresting someone is a violation of Human
Rights.

......

>  Ya-Gui Wei

Tingli Pan
From: zhong@cs.UAlberta.CA (John (Zhong)   Li)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
Subject: Re: "New" policy
Date: 30 Aug 92 03:25:49 GMT
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada

d0jian01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu writes:



>(This is a borrowed account.)


>I don't know whether the message posted by Bo Xiong about CG's new policies to overseas
>Chinese students are the translation of the original text, but I do find that
>Chinese students are described as having done "harmful" things to China  and
>have dong things "wrong". It seems to me that overseas Chinese students are
>still considered to be guilty only if they shut up their mouth after they
>return. Does this really mean the dvelopment of democracy movement in China?

>C.M. Chou

> 

Yes, I believe you are right. That's the communist government can give us 
the best democracy.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Li, John              | 492-5094 (office) | I haven't lost my mind,       |
| zhong@cs.ualberta.ca  | 492-2821 (lab)    | I know exactly where I left it|
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: 43JIANG%CUA.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject:      A question to W.Deng
Reply-To: 43JIANG%CUA.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 21:00:39 GMT

Should CG arrest Shen Tong or not?
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: xlli@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (xiao-lin li)
Subject: Re:      IFCSS Statement on Shen Tong's Arrest
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 15:36:32 GMT

In article <1992Sep2.064118.14024@nntp.hut.fi> ldong@hila.hut.fi (Liyun Dong) writes:
>
>Shen was not arrested until he was found to organize an activity which
>probably violated current communist law of forbitting anti-government
>activities.
>So his arrest seems not conflict with CCP's pledges for returning of CSS.
>

There is not a clear boundary between violating and not violating.
Everyone who return or visit China carries some oversea information.
These include the anti-government (for its murderous 6/4 massacre,
for example) attitude and opinion. Besides, Shen Tong's activity
could also be explained as helping Chinese government on its course
toward democracy which Chinese government made at least lip service
for. 

I would think Shen Tong's case tells us that if one still have
"anti-government" thought in his mind, he will be watched if not
arrested. 

But there is a reality. The reality is that 6/4 Massacre is a
crime, the Chinese government is guilty, some leaders are especially
guilty. Unless justice is done, there will always be an outcry
from the people, especially the Chinese people.

Xiao Li
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: HE@UCC.UWINDSOR.CA
Subject:      The debate over Shen Tong
Reply-To: Herb Ho <HE@ucc.uwindsor.ca>
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 18:16:12 GMT
Comments: To: multiple recipients <CHINA-NT@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Dear fellow Chinese:

     The name-calling in the Shen Tong debate stinks, and it does nothing
to help the cause of a better China that both sides purport to be fighting
for.

     The acrimony carries too much malice. The harsh but unsubstantiated
attacks on personalities are obviously meant to hurt, and for all that I
can see, they do hurt. Just about every debator now seems to harbour hard
feelings. I do not see anyone prepared to accept any sound opinions that might
have arisen. The issue has been lost. So, why is the debate?

     Talk sense, my friends.

Herb Ho
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: "T. Bao" <I990002%UNIVSCVM.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu>
Subject:      Shen Tong's Showdown
Reply-To: "T. Bao" <I990002%UNIVSCVM.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu>
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 14:31:05 GMT

It is really interesting that Shen Tong's timing to trigger the most
sensitive nerve between China and US coincided with several big things.
His wisdom and calculation was used to the best. Very impressive!
His sacrifice will definitely trade off: passage of greencard bill,
endorsement of congresspersons and Democrat's precident candidate.
No, he won't sacrifice that much because the US will take care of him
very well. That's for sure. Masters always take care of their running
dogs.

Shen is giving Bush a pair of small, yes, very small, shoes to wear. The
shoes are so small that Bush is in real miserable situation. I feel sorry
for George that even with his well established political skill he may
still lose his career to the hands of a young man from China. Who says
that Chinese Americans are not very good at politics?! Look at the
new immigrants from China and you will get encouraged. Some of them
may get into Clinton's cabinet. If I were Clinton, I would promote Shen
to be the embassador to Beijing. The reason: Yellow can only be beat
by Yellow ( Yi3 Huang2 Zhi4 Huang2). ;0

Well, it may be a good idea to change my major to political science so that
I can get some leftover in time. Oh, I should cover up my political
ambition. Yes, I am gonna fight for democracy and human rights in China.
The most glorious job ever existing in the world.

Democracy fighter, what a beautiful name!

T. Bao
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: xlli@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (xiao-lin li)
Subject: Re: Shen Tong's Showdown
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 22:06:20 GMT

In article <1992Sep2.201640.8090@athena.mit.edu> zhuh@athena.mit.edu (Hui Zhu) writes:
>
>Yes. But in a democratic society, everything should be under the laws. Can
>you get used to that ? Like stopping any personal attack and rumor making
>against your rival. Can you do that?  

People first try to find the motive for personal attack and rumor
to see if there is any rationale behind it. If not, it is a crime.

In a positive environment, people tend to speak truth. People tend
to do good things when they don't feel depressed. People have to cry
and make society known his pain when the society is to miserable.
But this can only be effective in a just and democratic society.

Or else, emmigrate.
Moving a tree makes it dead, moving a person makes him alive.
When good people left, if there is still no change, the society die.

>But when a human being donot have any food, he is not even as good as a pig! 

I guess human right include the right for food. In fact, more than food.


Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: HWANGK%VTCC1.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: (none)
Reply-To: HWANGK%VTCC1.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 17:32:00 GMT

Dear Bing:

    Yeah, you are right. Even the document No.44 was written in law, it still
has the value of a piece of garbage sinece Chinese Government is renowned as
a lawless government and it is the least credible one in the world. Nobody
with a sound memory will trust it.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: CNEWS@conan.ie.orst.edu
Subject:      Re: Sun Zhong-Shan, Shen Tong, Wang Jing-Wei and others...
Reply-To: CNEWS@conan.ie.orst.edu
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 19:19:43 GMT
Comments: To: XIAOJIAN@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU, CHINA-NT@uga.cc.uga.edu

> Marx is a great political scientist but a bad economist.
>
> Mao,Zhedong helped China to win independence. But he know little about
> economy. "Great leap" is his attempt to keep his shrinking power because
> he is so ignorant on economy and his attempt failed and brought about
> a terrible disaster. Culture revolution indeed is a military coup to
> regain adminstative power from Liu Shaoqi and Deng xiaoping.
> After 1949, the sooner Mao die the better off Chinese people would be.
>
> Today's CCP is not a communism party any more according to the principles
> of communism. It only keeps the name. What CCP is doing is just opposite
> to its principles. CCP is still a autocracy party, but now it believes in
> private ownership rather than state ownership, somehow like KMT in 50s'
> Taiwan, although CCP never openly admit this dramatic change. Chinese are
> good at saying something while doing the opposite. See what China is doing:
> all means could be used for privatization are being tried. China's GNP
> 's about 50% are still produced by state firms, but former Soviet and
> Eastern Europe have a much higher percentage of state firms after being
> democractized for quite a while. Privatization is just not a easy job.
>
> Most scholars in social science agree that the past 13 years were golden
> era of China. China has never been such hopeful in modern history. China
> is enduring an important transition period to privatize state properties.
> Give China some time and a better global environment, please be a little
> patient. CCP was terrible before reform, but today's CCP is not the old
> CCP anymore.
>
>
> William Deng
>
  This time, I do agree with some of your points here. But I doubt that
  "today's CCP is not the old CCP ANYMORE."
  I am confused by your comment "Chinese are good at saying something while
  doing the opposite."  Are you saying something while you are doing the
  opposite, too?

  John Xu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: FUW@conan.ie.orst.edu
Subject:      Re: Protest in San Francisco
Reply-To: FUW@conan.ie.orst.edu
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 08:11:15 GMT
Comments: To: XIAOJIAN@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU, CHINA-NT@uga.cc.uga.edu

> Date:       Tue, 1 Sep 1992 17:51:00 MST
> Reply-to:   XIAOJIAN@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU
> From:       XIAOJIAN@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU
> Subject:    Re: Protest in San Francisco
> To:         Multiple recipients of list CHINA-NT <CHINA-NT@uga.cc.uga.edu>

> Come on, what protest for? The whole event is a successful setup, and Shen
 Tong
> got what he wanted: to get famous and lend support to his congress friends'
> claim that China deserves sanctions because of the bad HR records. China also
> did not break her promise: it's fine to come back if you don't do it again
> no matter what you had done before. But anyway, a protest will make the setup
> more beautiful and it's not bad to have some excercise after a long time
> break.
>
>
> William Deng



    It is so easy to say, only "a setup". Why didn't you do it before Shen
did. So you could be famous.  Oh, dear! What a miscalculation!  Well,
probably I am the one who misunderstands you.  You are getting famous at a
lot more smarter way by posting this message.  Comparing with Shen, you are
a wise man! Getting famous without any risk or suffering!
    By the way, I am wondering. Are you a communist party member? Is CCP
your big dada? Do you carry any special mission for the party in the U.S.?
    Good luck on your way to get award from you big dada!
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: ylq@lems23lems.brown.edu (Yan Shen)
Subject: Re: response to Mr. W. Dong and Mr. T. Bao's comments
Organization: Laboratory for Engineering Man/Machine Systems
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 13:56:14 GMT

In article <2SEP199218172852@phobos.ucc.umass.edu>, s9874194@phobos.ucc.umass.edu (s9874194) writes:
|> I just have some comments on your understanding of Constitution. Have you
|> approved the Constitution of the United States? Do you have the obligation
|> to obey it? If someone want to change it, what s/he should do?
		^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> 

CCP always does that. During the Culture revolution, Lin Biao was in the 
constitution as heir of Chairman Mao's revolutionary mission. After Deng came 
to power, he put four "insist"s into the constitution. What else ? Don't you 
think it is kind of joke that only the top leaders can manipulate 
the constitution of 1.2 billion people. 

The Constitution of United State has been out there for more than 200 years.
Since 1949, you know how many times the Constitution of China has been abolished 
by the same party and then rewritten by the same group of people with different 
bosses. 
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: ylq@lems23lems.brown.edu (Yan Shen)
Subject: Re:      A reply to xpeng's attack
Organization: Laboratory for Engineering Man/Machine Systems
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 18:26:40 GMT

In article <Btxps1.KKI@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, XIAOJIAN@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU writes:
|> From:	IN%"xpeng@Athena.MIT.EDU"  1-SEP-1992 21:10
|> 
|> >>William Deng
|> -------------
|> >Nice rationale, isn't it?
|> 
|> >How about a setup like the following:
|> 
|> >A guy loves to be the son of CCP.  It was a real honor and beneficial before.
|> >While, this guy is smart.  He knows it will look stupid of just being the son
|> >of CCP at this time.  So he somehow managed of getting a popular "Democracy
|> >Fighter" mask for himself first.  Then he can be the "Democratic" son of CCP.
|> >So to join the 89's democratic movemont was just a setup for being the
|> >"Democractic" son of CCP.  A nicer setup, isn't it? Shen Tong's setup is so
|> >shallow.  And this guy's vision is so far.
|> 
|> 	To clear my name and avoid further personal attack, I have to reveal
|> some of my previous activities so you could judge whether I am qualified to
|> call myself a demcracy-fighter:
|> 	In 1986 students movement, I was the first guy in the whole movement
|> who stood up to call students to demonstate in the street. When: Dec.4,1986.
|> Where: School hall of USTC (KeDa), Hefei. Audience: almost all KeDa people.
|> I was also a major organizer of the first demonstation in the 86 movement
|> which was held on Dec.5,1986 in Hefei, Anhui, and a major dialogue
|> representative to have dialogue with officers held in the Anhui provincial
|> headquarter at the same day.
|> 
|> 
|> William Deng

Your explanation really made me think you have been a bug for a while. So 
you are senior agent or something. Is this time your true face ?  You 
really confused me. 
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: JUENKUNG@RAMOTH.USC.EDU
Subject:      Re:  Protest against the arresting of SHEN Tong
Reply-To: JUENKUNG@RAMOTH.USC.EDU
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 02:11:00 GMT
Comments: cc: china-nt%uga.cc.uga.edu@USC.EDU

	Dear Mr. William Deng:

	In your earlier message, you said you want to clear your name
in order to avoid personal attack. I also hate personal attack. But
what I see is that you repeatedly attacked Mr. Shen Tong, who now has
lost freedom, and maybe being tortured physically or mentally. I feel
your attack to him is even more evil and low-level when I think he
dose not know you are doing this behind him and he is not able to respond
to you. If Shen Tong is here right now then I will absolutely not say
any words about your opinion to him, since he know how to respond you.
Now I have a question to you: Who advise you to do all these? It looks
to me that your personal attack to him is really a well prepared setup!
Newsgroups: talk.politics.china