HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bweiss@cs.arizona.edu (Beth Weiss)
Newsgroups: soc.couples
Subject: Re: wedding etiquette
Date: 25 Jul 92 02:29:57 GMT
Organization: U of Arizona CS Dept, Tucson

> peri@cco.caltech.edu (Michal Leah Peri) writes:
>So what I want to know is what do you do when your fiance doesn't 
>remember whether his friends' wives retained their surnames....

Possibilities:
   --call and ask what last name the wife uses
   --guess that she uses his name
   --guess that she uses her birth name
   --address the envelope to him, and the letter to "Sue and Tom"
   --address the envelope to "Sue and Tom" without a last name

Personally, I'd vote for the first option.  If they're his friends, he
can do it pretty easily: "Hey Tom, Michal and I were talking about
names the other night, and I couldn't remember if Sue uses Smith or
Jones."   If he does this, then Tom will almost certainly tell him.

As someone who uses her birth name, I strongly dislike getting mail
addressed to "Dean and Beth Vinson"--I find it very rude for someone
to ignore our preference in the matter.  It'll be interesting to see
how mail to our son comes....

For those of you who didn't know, here's his birth announcement:

      	   Jordan Vinson Weiss
 
   parents:    Beth Weiss & Dean Vinson

   statistics: 9 pounds, 2 ounces
      	       22 1/2 inches long (not a typo--you should see his feet!)
   
   when born:  Tuesday 14 July 
               8:27 pm

--
--Beth Weiss
bweiss@cs.arizona.edu
Newsgroups: soc.couples
Subject: Re:  wedding etiquette
From: tfarmer@cavebbs.welly.gen.nz (Thomas Farmer)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 08:29:28 GMT
Organization: The Cave MegaBBS, Public Access Usenet, Wellington, NZ

In article <1992Jul21.153545.25862@ads.com> ellon@ADS.COM (Ellon St. Croix) writes:

>   I have to go with Vickie on this.  Being a recent bride myself, 
>   I can guarentee that if I EVER received a computer generated thank 
>   you note for a wedding/shower gift, that couple would NEVER receive
>   another gift from me.  If I took the time to go out and buy
>   something especially for them, or even if I just wrote them a
>   check, them they DAMN WELL better sit down and hand write me a 
>   personalized thank you note. 

What if they find handwriting very hard? I write exclusively with
computers and find handwriting very difficult now.

I have been writing to a friend for the last year and eventually had
to give up on writing my letters by hand.

They were simply too messy, too disjointed, too incoherent.

Personally I'd rather get an amusing, witty, personal, and readable
letter written on computer rather than a messy and stilted handwritten
note.
-- 
tfarmer@cavebbs.welly.gen.nz +64-4-499-3832 (home) //         Beagle
tfarmer@datamark.co.nz +64-4-233-8186 (work)    _ //  Compubuild 486
    I ain't nothin' but a Hound Dog             \\/ Amiga 3000 25/40
Newsgroups: soc.couples
From: ellon@ADS.COM (Ellon St. Croix)
Subject: Re: More wedding etiquette
Organization: Wild Bill & BabyCat's House of Many Pleasures
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 19:16:31 GMT


In article <14072@borg.cs.unc.edu> kupstas@weiss.cs.unc.edu (Eileen Kupstas) writes:
>In article <22600@oasys.dt.navy.mil> goldberg@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Mark Goldberg) writes:
>>In soc.couples, bweiss@cs.arizona.edu (Beth Weiss) writes:
>>>> goldberg@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Mark Goldberg) writes:
>>>>The source I am down on is the so-called "Miss Manners" (Judith Martin).
>>>>I think her orientation is stodgy, arbitrary, and stiff.
>>>
>>>I think Miss Manners is funny, honest, and a great source.
>>
>>It is interesting that she claims to be an authority on marriage while 
>>still being "Miss" and not "Mrs."          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

                      EXCUSE ME??  Miss Mannera does not (at least 
                                   no where that I have ever seen)
                      claim to be an authority on marriage.  She 
                      only claims to be an authority on ETIQUETTE.

>As she will tell you in one of her books, _Miss_ is her first name :-)
>
>(Anyway, I'm obviously in the "funny, honest, and a great source" if I've
>read all her books...)


    I too, find her funny, honest, and witty.

    Ellon

--
Nothin' feels as good, as good as us together.  Nothin' in the world,
no, there ain't nothin' better than this... NEW LOVE! Always feels 
like a new love. Every touch is feelin' so much like the very first
touch. It's like a new love, a new love........  WCS & ESS 4/18/92 
Newsgroups: soc.couples
From: hrose@eff.org (Helen Trillian Rose)
Subject: Re: More wedding etiquette
Organization: The Evil Fascist IRC Admins From Hell, Inc.
	<22600@oasys.dt.navy.mil>
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 19:23:20 GMT

Mark> == Mark Goldberg <goldberg@oasys.dt.navy.mil> 

 Mark> It is interesting that she claims to be an authority on marriage
 Mark> while still being "Miss" and not "Mrs."

I dunno, I had a friend in high school who knew more about marriage than
most grandmothers. She had five older sisters and numerous older
cousins. She'd been in more wedding parties than all of my family,
combined! (My friend wasn't married, btw :)

--Helen
--
Helen Trillian Rose             	email eff@eff.org for EFF info
Electronic Frontier Foundation   	irc operators: operlist@eff.org
Systems and Networks Administration	Flames to: 
<hrose@eff.org, hrose@cs.bu.edu>	women-not-to-be-messed-with@eff.org
Newsgroups: soc.couples
From: esther@verdix.com (Esther Lumsdon)
Subject: In Defence of Miss Manners
Organization: Verdix Corp.
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 14:49:57 GMT

Mark> == Mark Goldberg <goldberg@oasys.dt.navy.mil> 

Mark> It is interesting that she claims to be an authority on marriage
Mark> while still being "Miss" and not "Mrs."

Miss Manners refuses to inform people who do not need to know of her marital 
status.  Her given name is "Miss".  She makes no claim to have newfangled or 
modern ideas about etiquette.  She is old-fashioned.  She has a marvelous 
sense of humour, and uses it effectively in her crusade to stamp out rudeness.  
I have found her sample letters of condolence to the bereaved to be quite 
helpful.  I find her instructions about how to treat disabled people to be 
especially appropriate.

The purpose of etiquette is to make people comfortable, and to provide rules
(in order to restrict transgressions).  Judith Martin takes a firm stance
against sexual harrassment in the workplace, quasi-social work functions,
and the use of wedding etiquette and tradition to coerce unnecessary funds
out of the families of the couple (the "it is senseless to bring the entire
family into debt financing a fantasy wedding, if such is beyond the means
of the families involved" line).  I disagree with some of the opinions
expressed by Judith Martin, but I remain one of her fans.
-- 
------ Esther Lumsdon   employed by, not speaking for, Verdix Corporation
     It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice.
  esther@verdix.com  or  esther%verdix.com@uunet.uu.net
From: sandell@chowning.CNMAT.Berkeley.EDU (Gregory J. Sandell)
Newsgroups: soc.couples
Subject: Re:  Father Fixation
Date: 30 Jul 1992 02:29:32 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Distribution: world,local
NNTP-Posting-Host: chowning.cnmat.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Jul29.233824.1450@ultra.com> rajiv@ultra.com (Rajiv  
Dhingra) writes:
> 
> One of the main problems that I have with my wife is her  "father
> fixation".  Let me explain.  My wife is extremely attached to her
> father.   During  her  addoloscent  years  she  never    rebelled
> against  her  parents.   To  this day she never has had any argu-
> ments with him.  Daddy is always right.

I don't feel that I have a whole lot to offer you, but I would confirm  
what you and your friends think, that it is your wife and her father who  
are overstepping the bounds of marital propriety.

There is nothing wrong at all with having a strong bond with your parents,  
and i do not think that having grown up with the experience of a  
"generation gap" in your family is at all a requirement for being  
"normal."  However, i do find that an important aspect of compatability is  
that a couple have a similar orientation to their parents:  that they both  
rebelled at one time (and hopefully reconciled eventually), or that they  
both consider them to be ideals models, or that they feel they had to  
strike out on their own in life and "grow up in spite of their parents,"  
and so on.

I had a girlfriend for some years who said she could never live anywhere  
that was more than a day's drive from her parents.  This caused difficulty  
since I hoped to do a lot of moving around, and not stay in New York state  
all my life.  But another reason was that since I'm one of these people  
who grew up in spite of his parents, i feel no such obligation to tie  
myself to home, and I couldn't relate to that.  My wife comes from a  
divorced family with some nasty business having to do with a stepmother,  
and she loves the fact that we live in a parent-free lifestyle.

So I'd say you have a conflict that you and your wife will need to spend  
some time working on, and it sounds like it's going to take a little more
understanding than she's willing to show right now.  But it certainly does  
not seem like an insurmountable problem...there are far worse kinds of  
incompatabilities that can mar a relationship.
--
Greg Sandell
Research Fellow, Center for New Music and Audio Technologies (CNMAT)
sandell@cnmat.cnmat.berkeley.edu or sandell@garnet.berkeley.edu
Newsgroups: soc.couples,misc.kids
From: kapa@cbnewsc.cb.att.com (k.a.perkins)
Subject: Re: wedding etiquette
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 16:08:36 GMT
Followup-To: misc.kids
Summary: interesting assumptions

> Charleen:
> >>You might say that your marital status is your own business and in
> >>some sense that is correct, but if you're going to interact
> >>socially at all with other people, it does come into play, and if you
> >>retain your own surnames, there will be occasions when you're making
> >>people guess.

A friend of mine who has taught in the public grade schools for 10
years or so told me recently that when 2 adults walk into her room
to talk to her about a child, she never assumes that they are both
1) the biological parents of the child and 2) married to each other.
The far more common situation is that one of them is the biological
parent and the other is that person's spouse.  If they are both
the biological parents, most times they aren't married to each other,
anymore or ever.  She told me that she makes her kids introduce their
parents to each other and insists on first and last names, that the
case where Mr. and Mrs. Jones are Susie Jones' biological parents is
the exception not the rule.

She has taught in a range of schools, from poor neighborhoods to very
rich neighborhoods, in Arizona and Illinois, so I don't know if you can
generalize from the sort of schools she's been in.


Xref: sparky soc.couples:3470 soc.women:13994 soc.men:13618
Newsgroups: soc.couples,soc.women,soc.men
Subject: Re:  wedding etiquette
From: liam@durie.amigans.gen.nz (Liam Greenwood)
Date: 23 Jul 92 19:57:02 GMT+12
Distribution: world
Organization: It's Home, really...

In article <1992Jul21.172749.269@ads.com> ellon@ADS.COM (Ellon St. Croix) writes:
>
>   It is my belief that thank you notes should be mailed upon
>   receipt of the gift.  If it is a wedding gift, then you should
    [bit deleted...]
>   As far as I'm concerned the ONLY time it is acceptable to delay
>   sending the thank you is for gifts received at the
>   wedding/reception.

    Yep, what she said. Nice lady, pleasure to meet you....
>
>   IMHO.
    ^^^^^ ...as always IMHO too.

--
 Liam Greenwood ------ liam@durie.amigans.gen.nz ------ Wanganui, N.Z.
                Don't tell my Mother I'm a programmer,
              she thinks I'm a piano player in a brothel
From: ellon@ADS.COM (Ellon St. Croix)
Newsgroups: soc.couples
Subject: Re:  wedding etiquette
Date: 21 Jul 92 22:26:22 GMT
Organization: Wild Bill & BabyCat's House of Many Pleasures


 ilana@kiowa.scd.ucar.edu (Ilana Stern) writes:
 cshertze@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Candace Shertzer) writes:

> > I have a wedding etiquette question.  How appropriate is it for a couple
> > to have a small wedding (just immediate family) and then have a "blow
> > out" reception.  Would it be more appropriate if the inventation said
> > something in about gifts not being required?
>
>That's what we did.  We had 18 guests at the wedding (family and a few
>friends) and about 60 friends at the reception.  The engraved invitations
>were explicitly for the reception;  they said something like "request the
>pleasure of your company at a reception to celebrate our marriage."  
>We hand-wrote invitations to the wedding on the reception invitations for
>our family and those few friends who were travelling a long way.  (We
>had a small wedding because we wanted it in our house.)  As far as I know,
>nobody was offended, and it seemed like most people had a great time at
>the reception.  


      This is exactly the way it should be done.  With the only 
      exception being, maybe to go ahead and order ingraved invites 
      for those 20 or so people you invite to the wedding only.


      Ellon 


--
Nothin' feels as good, as good as us together.  Nothin' in the world,
no, there ain't nothin' better than this... NEW LOVE! Always feels 
like a new love. Every touch is feelin' so much like the very first
touch. It's like a new love, a new love........  WCS & ESS 4/18/92
From: HOLMES@VAXT.LLNL.GOV ("WHAT, ME WORRY?")
Newsgroups: soc.couples
Subject: Re: 2 more inches please
Date: 23 Jul 92 01:43:00 GMT


>From: lairdpg@lub001.lamar.edu
> -- 

>Most guys would keep thier women better satisfied if they had 2 more inches.
>'Course I am *NOT* speaking for myself!

This statement brings up several questions:

1. Are you a guy?
2. Do you have a hard time keeping your women satisfied WITH the additional 2 
   inches?
3. Did you find a woman that is satisfied without the 2 inches?
4. Does your announcement of your "prowess" help to support your personal
   feelings of manhood and machoism?
5. Do you think that announcing this "fact" in soc.couples will help you meet
   that special "unsatisfied" woman on the net?

6. Isn't this REALLY a cry for help?

You are really showing your age by quoting Richard Pryor.

DkH
From: lionel@cs.city.ac.uk (Lionel Tun)
Newsgroups: soc.couples
Subject: Re: waiting 'til marriage
Date: 23 Jul 92 16:43:21 GMT
Organization: City University, London

IMHO it is a good idea to wait until marriage, and if that is
what you have decided, good for you!

I would be interested in statistics comparing happiness and
longevity of marriages where both partners entered as
virgins against where one or both had had previous sexual
encounters.

--
Lionel Tun   (lionel@cs.city.ac.uk)
Vision Group, City University, London, EC1V 0HB. 071-477 8000 x 3889
Newsgroups: soc.couples
From: ilana@kiowa.scd.ucar.edu (Ilana Stern)
Subject: Re:  wedding etiquette
Organization: NCAR/UCAR
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 15:11:56 GMT

  
ilana@kiowa.scd.ucar.edu (Ilana Stern -- that's me) writes:

 > >We hand-wrote invitations to the wedding on the reception invitations 
 > >our family and those few friends who were travelling a long way.  

ellon@ADS.COM (Ellon St. Croix) writes:

 >       This is exactly the way it should be done.  With the only 
 >       exception being, maybe to go ahead and order ingraved invites 
 >       for those 20 or so people you invite to the wedding only.

For a formal wedding, you're right, invitations should be engraved.
However for an informal wedding, which ours was, handwritten invitations
are acceptable.  

-- 
/\        Ilana Stern DoD#009 | Whoever first said, "Things are seldom as they 
  \_][    ilana@ncar.ucar.edu | seem," was wrong.  Things are usually as they
      \_______________________| seem.  Otherwise, they wouldn't seem that way.
From: cindy@solan10.solan.unit.no (Cynthia Kandolf)
Subject: Re: wedding etiquette
Followup-To: soc.couples
Organization: /home/ludviga/cindy/.organization
	<2246@unet.UUCP>
Date: 31 Jul 92 21:58:25

Linda Hill writes:
>In article <1992Jul23.172653.19259@cco.caltech.edu>
>peri@cco.caltech.edu (Micha\l Leah Peri) writes:
>>
>>So what I want to know is what do you do when your fiance doesn't
>>remember whether his friends' wives retained their surnames....
>
>Whenever I am in doubt about this, I just address it to Mr. and Mrs.
>John Doe and open it with Dear John and Jane.  I've kept my maiden
>name and I'm not offended when people I don't know well use Mr. and
>Mrs. His Name or address something to Linda Gratton [...]

I also kept my own last name, and i'm not offended when mail comes
to me under my husband's last name.  However, i think we have
the most confused postal carrier in all of Norway, because mail
has come to me under the following names:

Cindy Kandolf [which i use as my "real" name here]
Cynthia Kandolf
C. G. Kandolf
Cindy Haug
Cynthia Haug
Mrs. Steinar Haug

So far, she's gotten it right every time 8-)  (Including the short
while when there was a Berit Haug living across the hall from us.)

-Cindy Kandolf
 cindy@solan.unit.no
 Trondheim, Norway


Newsgroups: soc.couples
From: elle@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Ellen Keyne Seebacher)
Subject: Re: waiting 'til marriage
Reply-To: elle@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 14:16:24 GMT

jlb6s@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Jennifer Leigh Bancroft) writes:
>We haven't had sex yet... because we bot want to wait until we're 
>married....  Instead, we've come up with numerous ways to satisfy our
>desire together..ahem. ;)

It sounds like you equate the word "sex" with penile-vaginal intercourse.
If so, why is that qualitatively different from "ahem"?

--
Ellen Keyne Seebacher            elle@midway.uchicago.edu
Newsgroups: soc.couples
From: matt@oddjob.uchicago.edu (Matt Crawford)
Subject: Re: waiting 'til marriage
Organization: Network 23
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 23:30:29 GMT

) >the first couple of times ... with a virgin female it hurts incredibly bad.
) 
) I can certainly cite a number of counterexamples ... Your Mileage May Vary.


	"Gee, if I'd known you were a
	virgin, I'd have taken more time."


					"If I'd known you had more time, I
					would have taken off my panty hose."
From: kupstas@weiss.cs.unc.edu (Eileen Kupstas)
Newsgroups: soc.couples
Subject: Re: More wedding etiquette
Date: 22 Jul 92 18:47:42 GMT
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill

In article <22600@oasys.dt.navy.mil> goldberg@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Mark Goldberg) writes:
>In soc.couples, bweiss@cs.arizona.edu (Beth Weiss) writes:
>>> goldberg@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Mark Goldberg) writes:
>>>The source I am down on is the so-called "Miss Manners" (Judith Martin).
>>>I think her orientation is stodgy, arbitrary, and stiff.
>>
>>I think Miss Manners is funny, honest, and a great source.
>
>It is interesting that she claims to be an authority on marriage while 
>still being "Miss" and not "Mrs."

As she will tell you in one of her books, _Miss_ is her first name :-)

(Anyway, I'm obviously in the "funny, honest, and a great source" if I've
read all her books...)


Eileen
From: lm27+@andrew.cmu.edu (Lukas Manomaitis)
Newsgroups: soc.couples
Subject: Re: waiting 'til marriage
Date: 22 Jul 92 08:40:44 GMT
Article-I.D.: andrew.YePMyA200WB445CH9J
Organization: Sophomore, Biology, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

OK, this is a hard one and there are two views to it.
Also, I'm fairly sure my girlfriend will voice her opinion as well (;> eh, Jeannie?)
No, you aren't the only people to wait until you're married to have sex.  I didn't wait myself because I didn't feel it was an important moral consideration.  However, I wish I had waited until I met my girlfriend <now>.
Waiting for marriage is something that I think you have to decide for yourself,
I wanted to discuss the "is it worth it?" part.
I think not.
Something that I found out from experience is that the first couple of times you have sex with a virgin female it hurts incredibly bad.  Now, I never knew this
previously because I think there is a widespread delusion that virgins love to
have sex the first time.  Everyone that I have talked to on the subject says no, it really hurts.  I wonder if women who have sex for the first time on their wedding night try to mask the pain to make the experience enjoyable for their spouse, and maybe that is why there is this ignorance by the male population.
Not that I am planning on breaking up, but if it happened I personally would never want to have sex with a virgin again.
But maybe that's just me.
My $.02
Lukas
Newsgroups: soc.couples
From: singh@eastern.COM (Rajendra Singh)
Subject: Mututal Break Up -- HELP
Organization: Eastern's Public Access BBS, Toronto CAN
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 13:19:51 GMT

Hello Fellow netters:

I have a problem that I need a little help with.

A few days ago, my girlfriend and I decided that it would be in the best 
interest of everyone involved (i. e.  me,  her, and parents) to end our 
relationship.  Maybe I should explain more:  She's Italian, and I'm Indian.  
We had been seeing each other for 2.5 years.  The problem is that I didn't 
realize how tough it would be to end the relationship while we still loved 
each other.

Some of the reasons we gave for ending the relationship was our cultureal 
differences, our (mostly her's) parent's objections, and a few other minor 
things.

I can't seem to get her out of her mind.  Maybe it's asking too much, but 
can someone offer me some advice?

Another reason why we decided to end it was the fact that we'd rather have 
it end now than end up in marriage then divorce.
From: paradis@sousa.ltn.dec.com (Jim Paradis)
Newsgroups: soc.couples
Subject: Re: Wedding Music
Date: 22 Jul 92 21:57:26 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation, Littleton, MA

pepitone@ssd.comm.mot.com (Gina Pepitone) writes:
: Does anyone out there have any ideas for a wedding processional
: (please don't say "Here comes the Bride")

I read all the replies so far... just for completeness' sake, here's a
bit of wedding musicology for you:

The piece that everyone knows as "Here Comes the Bride" is actually
the Wedding Chorus from the opera _Lohengrin_, by Richard Wagner.

The other popular wedding march (the one used as the "Newlywed Game" theme)
is the Wedding March from _A_Midsummer_Night's_Dream_, by Felix Mendelssohn.

In recent years, those who've thought the above too tacky and overused
have switched to Purcell's "Trumpet Voluntary".  Of course, this piece
is really "The Prince of Denmark's March" by Jeremiah Clarke...

Now some possible suggestions:

	For one wedding gig I played, I did an arrangement of the horn
	call from Beethoven's Leonore Overture #3, for horn and organ,
	at the request of the groom.  A bit short, so don't use it in 
	Saint Patrick's 8-)

	Another possibility for the organist is "The Earle of Oxfords Marche",
	from the Fitzwilliam Virginal Book.  This one's rather long, so
	either take a snippet or make sure it's a LARGE church 8-)

Me?  I wrote my own processional, for string quartet.  A serviceable
composition job, but I'm glad that my music theory professor wasn't in
attendance 8-)

For our *re*cessional, I'd done a string quartet arrangement of Berlioz'
"March to the Gallows" from the Symphonie Fantastique.  The musically-inclined
in the audience got a snicker out of that one 8-)

-- 
Jim Paradis (paradis@tallis.enet.dec.com) 
Working for DEC, speaking for myself.