From: li@sicvax.enet.dec.com (Tom Li)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re: A thought on Mainlanders' Attitude
Date: 11 Jan 93 01:30:29 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


In article <F2f=jp-@engin.umich.edu>, changhp@engin.umich.edu (Hsiou-Ping Chang) writes...
> 
>In article <C0JIAJ.Ap@ulowell.ulowell.edu>, cshi@cs.ulowell.edu (Chunde Shi) writes:
>> 
>> Taiwan is holding unification as hostage, in excuse of CCP, and refuses 
>> contact with mainland. This may cause  Chinese people disaster, if not managed
>> carefully, given some nation are taking advantage of the situation.

I disagree with Chunde's posting. I think he should also look at this problem 
from Taiwan's perspective. But I believe there are some mainlanders sympathy 
to Taiwan's position or at least willing to listen but may not be able to 
speak out openly. Those speak loudly, very often they are in line with CCP's
position on this issue. How many people from Taiwan can speak freely on every 
issue if it was ten years ago?

>In article <1993Jan9.124612.4236@vax.cns.muskingum.edu>, ericlaw@vax.cns.muskingum.edu (Eric Law, Geology Department) writes:
> 
>> 	** This is a very good illustration of that China should
>> 	   be united. SCHK, SCT, and SCC should eventually be
>> 	   only one. 
>> 
>> 	   I like to see more and more cross-posting happen.

I think you should read the original posting. To me, the orginal posting is 
not friendly at all. The author implied that SCHK and SCC should not 
cross-posting to SCT. All the netgroups are open forum and everyone can post.
If you dont like some of postings you can either skip or reflute them. No one
owns those newsgroups.

This reminds me that a netter from Taiwan laughed at the Mainland Chinese 
dress like homeless. 20 years ago, Taiwan's students probably did not dress 
any better either. How many Taiwan's students at that time have to work very
hard in the summer to earn the next tuition? Now we are richer and we laugh 
at those "less fortunate" people. Yes, we may be richer in the pocket do we 
really richer in the minds? Talking about our XO culture. Sigh!

When mainland Chinese read this kind of posting, you can imagine how much 
the resentment and even hostility will grow in their minds. We make friends,
if we can not, at least dont make enemy (for no reason).

I think we people from Taiwan should self-examine too.

>In article <1993Jan9.125757.4237@vax.cns.muskingum.edu>, ericlaw@vax.cns.muskingum.edu (Eric Law, Geology Department) writes:
>> 
>> 	** After seeing the spectacular fight among Guo2 Dai4
>> 	   on Jan 8, I am just laughing at this so called
>> 	   democracy. 
>> 
>> 	   Election is just a disguise of other forms of dictatorship.

I too have trouble with this fight in the National Assembly. A couple of years 
ago, many fights were to get rid of so-called "old-thief" which I think many 
Taiwan's people including myself agreed. But my impression about this National 
Assembly meetings the primary mission is to elect new representatives in the
Control Yuan. Suddenly DPP delegates asked to change the Constitution but 
KMT delegates (more than 70% of seats) refused that is how the fight got 
started. If DPP wants to control the agenda, they should work hard to get 
more people elected next time. Also does that mean one day KMT becomes the 
opposition party KMT is allowed to do the same things?

A couple of months ago, a group of radical TIers carried a red coffin and 
protested in front of Chiayi County parliament. That was the day for the 
opening ceremony of new parliamnet building, one worker in the building 
told those demonstrators they should not carry a coffin that will bring a 
bad luck. Then this poor guy was beaten up by demonstrators. After the 
incident, no one was prosecuted and no one said anything. I dont mean all 
the TIers are like this, but some of TIer's behaviors has brought me doubts
about the quality of the TI movements. 

Also the recent United Daily incident. a couple of months, the United 
Daily reported that Chinese Vice-Premier (??) Lee Ray-Hwan warned that China 
is willing to sacrifice her economic development and take all possible 
actions against Taiwan independence. The news was reported in most of 
Taiwan's newspapers next day and the contents are very similiar to each other. 
But TI organization singled out the United Daily and asked people to boycott 
(because of the United Daily's pro-KMT and pro-unification's positions??)
I dont know What those TIers are afraid of? Could not face the truth? If 
that is the case, then how can we hand our future to them? Do these people 
know freedom of press? People have rights to know. DPP criticizes (which I 
agree too) that KMT controls the electronic media. But how about those TIers, 
if one day these people are in power are they going to impose censorship?

My impression nowadays many people in Taiwan including governmant officials
are afraid of criticizing some TIers' behavior to avoid be labelled 
as "Taiwanese Traitor" or other naming calling. What kind of society it
is? Will TI really bring a more free and democratic society to us? Or just 
business as usual, one wolf is gone and another fox is coming?

>After reading so many posting by mainlanders, I have a question for the
>netters.   Do you think it is the fact that
> 
>(a) Taiwan is (already) an independent and democratic country 
>or 
>(b) Taiwan wants to declare independence
> 
>causes more the unease of CCP?

IMO, Taiwan is a "pragmatic" independent country under name of Republic of
China, To declare "Republic of Taiwan" it will casue great unease of CCP.
CCP will have the following concerns:

1) declare ROT means the hope of unification is gone,
2) Tibet and other regions may be encouraged for independence,

Therefore CCP may be forced to take action to protect their ruling.

>	If you carefully read the articles by the mainlanders, you will find
>out (a) is the more correct answer.  These mainlanders just won't leave us
>alone and won't let us decide what we want to do.   They do nothing to improve
>their CCP and ridicule our democracy.

Again, those can speak loudly usually in line with CCP's position I think.

>	In order not to bring in another flame war, I am willing to make my
>point clear.   Apparently fact (a) is more important than fact (b) for us
>to survive. (Some netters insist that we shouldn't take radical measures,
>which I agree with, as long as we make as much progress as we can.)

I agree. We should make Taiwan more "pragmatic" independent country (until
CCP is willing to change or give in) and more visible in the world to enhance
our position. Pesonally I think "Two-China", ie, two independent nations can 
do just fine for now. But most important, political reform within Taiwan 
should continue and should be separated from unification/independence disputes.
KMT, DPP, and particularly those radical TIers should learn to tolerate 
different opinion. If one day the independence becomes a clear choice I hope 
democracy can come with. But right now I just dont know if it will be the case.

>There is an ILLUSION that if we don't enforce (b) then China
>will not invade Taiwan. This *is* an illusion!!   
>It is my believe that the fact (a) is the most essential
>factor to the CCP's hostility.  I am very concerned about the fact that some of
>my Taiwanese fellows are still unable to realize the importance of fact (a)
>and believe fact (b) is the only cause for invasion.
	
CPP made very clear that only if Taiwan declares independence, ie, sever the 
hope of unification, China will take action. You as well as some TIers may 
think it unlikely but you have to convince Taiwan's people why it is unlikely. 
You have to convince Taiwan's people TI will bring more international 
recognition than we are now as ROC. You also have to convince people TI will 
bring a more secure, free, democratic society. Then independence can be 
possible. Otherwise, I believe not many people are willing to risk what they 
have now for a uncertainty.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan