HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bai@msiadmin.cit.cornell.edu (Dov Bai-MSI Visitor)
Subject: Re: A few thoughts on Fabrikant.
Organization: /usr/local/lib/news/organization
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 17:22:38 GMT

In article <87317@netnews.upenn.edu> rsk@aspen.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec) writes:
>In article <1992Aug28.034529.8723@tc.cornell.edu> bai@msiadmin.cit.cornell.edu (Dov Bai-MSI Visitor) writes:
>>In article <87265@netnews.upenn.edu> rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec) writes:
>>>Very well.  Here is how I have "learned to live with jerks": I recommend
>>>against granting them tenure.  Is this real enough for you?
>>
>>Mr S. Tate: Does the above sound arrogant enough for you, or you
>>think this above poster is a  "decent human being" ? 
>
>Mr. Tate doesn't know me, and neither do you.  If you are willing
>to leap to conclusions about whether or not I am a "decent human being"
>based on one short Usenet article, then I am willing to conclude that
>your reasoning methods leave much to be desired.  

I did not conclude anything. I _asked_ Mr. Tates what he thinks about
you.

>In any case, I was
>simply giving my method for "learn[ing] to live with jerks" in the
>"real world", as a previous article suggested; in no way did I suggest
>that this method would be appropriate for anyone other than myself.

Wonderful attitude.

>---Rsk
>
Dov

Newsgroups: sci.research
From: shalan@engr.latech.edu (Shivram Halan)
Subject: Re: Dr. Fabrikanth/victims
Reply-To: shalan@engr.latech.edu
Organization: Louisiana Tech University
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 02:20:21 GMT


	I have been reading all the posting on the concordia gate scandal that led to the sad affair. Nobody has mentioned who the victims are. I would like to know their names.their work..
I would appreciate it very much. 

thank you
shiv
Xref: sparky sci.research:933 sci.research.careers:810
From: mroussel@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Marc Roussel)
Subject: Re: Dr. Fabrikant and honesty in science
Organization: Department of Chemistry, University of Toronto
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 16:57:15 GMT

In article <1992Aug31.043252.8398@mailhost.ocs.mq.edu.au>
wskelly@laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au (William Skelly) writes:
>It is time this crap stops.  I vote that Journal request
>the authors (all the authors) of every paper submitted to
>also submit a one page outline of their contributions to 
>the paper AND ALL the authors sign ALL the outlines!!!

     Great!  More paperwork!  How do you propose that this system be
applied to particle physics where author lists often reach into the
hundreds?  Note that the author lists in particle physics are long not
because of spurious authors being added but because the nature of the
activity requires a small army of workers.

				Marc R. Roussel
                                mroussel@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca
From: fulk@cs.rochester.edu (Mark Fulk)
Newsgroups: sci.research
Subject: Re: Medics as scientists ?
Date: 1 Sep 92 15:00:36 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Department University of Rochester

In article <16285@pitt.UUCP> km@cs.pitt.edu (Ken Mitchum) writes:

>>I wrote that the first two years of med school involved mostly
>>large-scale memorization.

>This is not really correct. Memorization is important in medical school,
>but only in certain courses, and as an adjunct to other course material.
>It is very important in anatomy and neuroanatomy for example. But it is
>of far less importance in a subject like physiology, where the
>emphasis is on function. Some subjects, such as pathology, are a
>fairly even mixture of the two.

Other doctor friends seem to think that physiology, even, is a matter
of memorization.  I can imagine two explanations: either they don't
have your insight into physiological function, and consequently don't
see physiology as being as logically structured as you do, or perhaps
their medical training was inferior.  I can easily believe either
explanation.  For a parallel: I thought that calculus was a lark,
never memorized anything, and rederived the facts I needed on-line
during the exams.  Less mathematical friends found the same course
to be a boring exercise in memorization.  They never saw how it all
fit together.

>Even the "rote" memorization in medical school serves a useful purpose
>later. Very few of us remember a lot of the detail we learned in
>anatomy, but we did learn how to remember things!
...
>have over a thousand patients, but if one of them calls me up I look
>pretty stupid if I don't remember the case.

My point wasn't to criticize medical training.  I think it is fairly
well targeted for the set of skills that is being taught, as far as
I can judge from this distance.  I was just arguing that it is distinct
from training for scientific research.
-- 
Mark A. Fulk			University of Rochester
Computer Science Department	fulk@cs.rochester.edu
From: gilligan@bldrdoc.gov (Jonathan Gilligan 303-497-3861)
Newsgroups: sci.research
Subject: Book: Cantor's  dilemma (was Re: Dr. Fabrikant and honesty in science)
Date: 31 Aug 92 20:29:59 GMT
Organization: National Institute of Standards and Technology

In article <5229@dove.nist.gov> gilligan@bldrdoc.gov (Jonathan Gilligan 303-497-3861) writes:
|>BTW, I recommend reading an excellent novel about honesty and
|>integrity in scientific research: _Cantor's_Dilemma_. (Sorry, I'm
|>drawing a blank on the author, although I should remember the name.
|>He's a prominent biochemist). This novel addresses the question of who
|>goes on the author list, what the order of the names should be, trust
|>among colleagues, faking experiments, and other issues. It's also well
|>written and populated with compelling characters.

The book is _Cantor's_Dilemma_ by Carl Djerassi (Doubleday, 1989).

---Jon
-- 

Disclaimer --- The government probably disagrees with my opinions.
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: drraymon@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca (Darrell Raymond)
Subject: Re: Fabrikant, "mad" or "bad" ?
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 02:39:06 GMT

In article <5195@dove.nist.gov>, gilligan@bldrdoc.gov (Jonathan Gilligan 303-497-3861) writes:
> In article <BtnAuH.3rG@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca> drraymon@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca (Darrell Raymond) writes:
> >  I hope someone with some psychological training will help us out here.  
> >I suspect that arguing about "sane" and "insane" is like arguing about 
> >"sick" and "healthy".  Fabrikant clearly did something abnormal, but I 
> >would hesitate to say that he was insane.  Isn't there a position between 
> >"sane" and "insane", like "disturbed"?
> 
> According to my father, a psychiatrist specializing in violence, the
> legal definition of insane has nothing to do with mental health. It
> basically consists of meeting one of two criteria (and I'm
> paraphrasing from memory here, so I may not quite be accurate):
	.
	.
> "Sick" and "healthy" have nothing to do with it. I prefer to think in
> terms of more colloquial usage, myself.

  I was making an analogy.  "sick" and "healthy" are two ends of a 
continuum, and out of ignorance I was asking if "sane" and "insane" 
are also ends of a continuum.  

  Like most of the rest of you, I'm not interested in the legal definition 
of sanity.  But even in its colloquial usage, "insane" connotes someone who 
is not responsible for what they do; they are simply not in control. I
suspect many of us think that Fabrikant *is* responsible for what he did,
however.  What I'd like to know (perhaps Jonathan's father can eludicate 
further) is how psychologists categorize people that do unreasonable, 
irrational, violent things.  Are they all "insane"?  Are some "sane, but 
temporarily incapacitated"?  And what are the tests for belonging to
some of these categories?

-Darrell.
From: geb@dsl.pitt.edu (gordon e. banks)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Fabrikant and Concordia ME's response
Date: 31 Aug 92 16:36:38 GMT
Organization: Decision Systems Laboratory, Univ. of Pittsburgh, PA.

In article <1992Aug27.191739.7490@cs.sfu.ca> jamie@cs.sfu.ca (Jamie Andrews) writes:

>     I have no idea whether Fabrikant's accusations were true.
>However, one thing is clear:  people at Concordia Mechanical
>Engineering knew he was violent and unstable, and what was their
>response?  To give him a medical leave, or to get a court order
>to have him committed?
>

I don't know about Canada, but here they would not have any
standing in court to have him committed against his will.

>     No, their response was to deny him tenure.  In other words,

Should they have given him tenure then?  To prevent him from
going off the deep end?  I agree that most institutions are
heartless by nature, but they really aren't set up to serve
the function of families.
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Banks  N3JXP      | "Skepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and
geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu   |  it is shameful to surrender it too soon." 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: rhodesia@wixer.cactus.org (Felix S. Gallo)
Subject: Re: Do the police have Fabrikant's postings?
Reply-To: rhodesia@wixer.cactus.org (Felix S. Gallo)
Organization: Real/Time Communications
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 92 02:59:11 GMT


clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca (Chris Lewis) writes:
>
>He charges the professors with "theft" of his work - by having their
>names included on his publications.  The transcripts he includes
>contradict that.  The professor who was the brunt of most of the charges
>clearly never asked, let alone demanded, that Fabrikant include his
>name on Fabrikant's papers.  Ie: how can it be "theft", if Fabrikant
>"gave it away" on his own initiative?

Fabrikant also stated (I believe -- and since the articles are gone from
my site, I am going on memory alone) that everyone "knew" what the
consequences of him not including their names on his work would be,
with the implication being blackballing and more political backstabbing.

I think that if any part of what Fabrikant said is correct about these
people, this type of implicit threat is believable.  While I don't accept
Fabrikant's arguments just because they're in print, I am willing to believe
on the face of things that his department was very political and very vicious.
Their recommendation to terminate Fabrikant on the basis of their personal
opinions of him seems ridiculous to me.  Their statement that he was a poor
teacher doesn't jibe well with what I remember as an impartial view that
Fabrikant was an effective teacher.  Basically, I wouldn't put it past these
people to threaten Fabrikant into naming them on his work via unspoken rules.

>Fabrikant "refused" to include the name of another professor on his work.
>I wonder who he was refusing?  Himself?

He stated that he had eventually decided not to play by their rules any
more, and that some of the unpleasant events which were happening to him
may have been related to that refusal.

As an undergraduate, I held jobs (as a systems administrator) which mandated
my close contact with research professors in high-tech fields.  Most of them
were cynical, self-centered, condescending and unpleasant to be around in
quantity due to intraoffice politics.  I think the scent of all that money
does something to the human psyche.  That's why I am so willing to believe
that Fabrikant is at least partially right -- disregarding for a moment his
terrible actions, however hard it may be, he was apparently a quality worker
for a great many years.  And for that, he gets my respect.

He's insane now, or was briefly, which clouds the matter of his academic
disagreement.  No amount of research will atone for the deaths of the
innocent.  But I find it unlikely, from reading his posts, that he would
have gone off the deep end like this if it weren't for the intolerable
politics that surrounds modern research and development.  The question
put to this newsgroup should be, "how do we eliminate the sort of stress
Fabrikant went under?" -- even if much of the stress, as the case may be,
came from inside.

Felix S. Gallo
rhodesia@wixer.cactus.org
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: watanabe@dante.cs.uiuc.edu (Larry Watanabe)
Subject: Frabrikant-like stories
Keywords: Fabrikant, novels
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 04:41:18 GMT

There was a rather good novel last year, entitled 
"The Goldberg Variations", about a genetics researcher.
I think it made the New York Times best-seller's list.
Although the ending of the novel isn't as violent as
real life (I suppose the author thought that such an
ending would strain the reader's willing suspension of
disbelief) the protaganist shares a number of similar
characteristics with Frabrikant - brilliant researcher,
becomes disillusioned by politics of academia, self-destructs.

If you were interested in the Fabrikant story, you might
also be interested in reading this novel.

-Larry Watanabe  watanabe@cs.uiuc.edu
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: bauwens@acs.ucalgary.ca (Luc Bauwens)
Subject: Re: Beyond a Reasonable Doubt?
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 92 02:54:49 GMT
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta

In article <1992Aug28.145518.1@indyvax.iupui.edu> tffreeba@indyvax.iupui.edu writes:
>Does anybody know if it is possible to establish "beyond a reasonable
>doubt" if Fabrikant sent the e-messages?  I was talking to a law prof
>here in Indiana, (the law may well be different in Canada) and he said
>that while the prosecution may try and use the e-mail to establish
>premeditation, the defence may be able to say that there is no way to
>prove that Fabrikant actually sent them (forgery, etc.)
 
What's the point?  He is defending himself, and I can't see him
denying the very thing he wants to say...    That stuff *is* his 
'defence'...

>[...]  (I am a journalism student.  Send >all flames to the NY Times.)

So that's why you are indulging in this uninformed speculation,
irrelevant and unrelated to the case, right :-)?

Besides, I read the stuff over the weekend, and I did not read into
it that he was going to kill those folks.  He came out as a jerk, right.
It sounded like grand standing and manipulation, right.  Even the
contempt of court stuff sounded false; and indeed, I believe
such a request *by the defendant* must be extremely unusual and
a very long shot.  But not premeditation.   

There are, however, others, much strong arguments for premeditation.

On the other hand, those postings, plus his actions, should be quite enoughr
to convince a jury that he belongs in an institution...   Especially
if he defends himself and claims he is on a crusade against the
rest of the world.  (But can a jury find him insane if he is not
pleading insanity?)

LB


Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: jamie@cs.sfu.ca (Jamie Andrews)
Subject: Re: Fabrikant and Concordia ME's response
Organization: CSS, Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 22:07:21 GMT

In article <16281@pitt.UUCP> geb@dsl.pitt.edu (gordon e. banks) writes:
>In article <1992Aug27.191739.7490@cs.sfu.ca> jamie@cs.sfu.ca (Jamie Andrews) writes:
>>     I have no idea whether Fabrikant's accusations were true.
>>However, one thing is clear:  people at Concordia Mechanical
>>Engineering knew he was violent and unstable, and what was their
>>response?  To give him a medical leave, or to get a court order
>>to have him committed?
>
>I don't know about Canada, but here they would not have any
>standing in court to have him committed against his will.

     Even when they knew he was trying to get a gun and had made
death threats and acted violently?  They even had him searched
for guns once.

>>     No, their response was to deny him tenure.  In other words,
>
>Should they have given him tenure then?

     I think (as far as I understand the information given in
this newsgroup) they should have delayed the decision; as I
recall, he was early on in a tenure-track position and they
didn't need to decide this year.

     My point is that when he started threatening people and
acting violent, they should have said "OK, well now we know why
he has been so abusive and difficult; it's not that he just has
a personality problem, it's that he is mentally unstable."
I feel that they should have acted on that information, and not
just on the facts of how he interacted with people.  Of course,
again, there may be something I'm missing; maybe someone in the
department did try to get him help, or maybe circumstances we're
not aware of prevented it.

>  To prevent him from
>going off the deep end?  I agree that most institutions are
>heartless by nature, but they really aren't set up to serve
>the function of families.

     When someone is going off the deep end, and it's visible
to everyone around him, then everyone around him shares the
responsibility for getting him help, IMHO.

--Jamie.
  jamie@cs.sfu.ca
"Every \item command in item_list must have an optional argument." LaTeX pg.168
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: bai@msiadmin.cit.cornell.edu (Dov Bai-MSI Visitor)
Subject: Re: Fabrikant did not post to sci.research.careers
Organization: /usr/local/lib/news/organization
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 21:37:07 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.175301.24479@unislc.uucp> erc@unislc.uucp (Ed Carp) writes:
>Dov Bai-MSI Visitor (bai@msiadmin.cit.cornell.edu) wrote:
>
>: so there might have been A.LST, C.LST etc. for people whose name begin
>: with a different letter in the alphabet. I decided to send it to
>: s.r.c. becasue I thought it might be helpful for people who are 
>: eagerly looking for a tenure-track position to see how the "Real
>: World" looks, and that it is not a paradise at all. Later on I sent
>: it also science.research.
>
>Interesting that you chose to print both sides of the story.  Commendable.

Thank you.

>However, in posting confidential memos and documentation, dod you
>unknowingly open yourself to a lawsuit yourself?

For what ? For posting "electonic" copies of files that I have received,
without any real signature on them ? The only "signature", (if we may
call it so) was the header of Fabrikant's message. Even headers
were forged many times on Usenet.

If anything, it is Fabrikant who had the real things that might be
sued.

>I don't know why so many people want to work in the academic environment.
>It has its own set of rewards, but also its own set of horrors - just like
>the "Real World".  Academia and the corporate culture don't mix, either,

Corporate don't have tenure, where a small group of senior faculty
members can ruin the rest of your professional life.

>-- 
>Ed Carp, N7EKG     erc@apple.com                801/538-0177
>"This is the final task I will ever give you, and it  goes  on  forever.   Act
>happy, feel happy, be happy, without a reason in the world. Then you can love,
>and do what you will."           -- Dan Millman, "Way Of The Peaceful Warrior"

Dov
From: kaya@mscf.med.upenn.edu
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Molecular Biologist/Philadephia Area/Temporary Postion
Date: 2 Sep 92 17:24:29 GMT
Organization: Univ of Penn - Med School Computer Facility

SUMMARY;  One year temporary postion in the Molecular Biology Department
KEYWORDS;  Molecular Biology/Gene Expression/Cloning/Biology/Philadelphia/ 
		Pennsylvania/Temporary Postion

A one year position is available immediately for an individual with a 
background in molecular biology.  A background in gene expression is desired, 
but not required.

The position is open to an individual with a college degree in the sciences.  
Individuals with post-graduate degrees are encouraged to apply.

Salary is competitive and commensurate with experience/degree.

For more information or to send an application, contact Dr. Angela Kaya or 
Dr. Jon Williams at:

Magainin Pharmaceuticals Inc.
5110 Campus Drive
Plymouth Meeting, PA 19462

TEL (215) 941-5234 or (215) 941-5238

FAX (215) 941-5399

or EMAIL to KAYA@MSCF.MED.UPENN.EDU

Magainin Pharmaceuticals Inc. is a biopharmaceutical company engaged in the 
research and development of a new family of host-defense peptides for the 
treatment of infections and cerain cancers and the promotion of wound healing.

Magainin Pharmaceuticals Inc. is an equal opportunity employer.
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: crawford@church.mitre.org (Randy Crawford)
Subject: Re: Please distribute Fabrikant subject into appropriate news groups
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, McLean, VA
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 22:36:01 GMT

In article <1992Aug27.174427.20641@nas.nasa.gov>, eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya) writ
es:
> While the Fabrikant subject is an interesting one, this group has been set
> up for "the discussion of careers in scientific resarch."
>
> STOP!
> Take a moment, edit your Subject-lines, your Newsgroups: fields, and Follow-up
> lines.

Let's be objective about this.

In a research career newsgroup a professional compatriot has posted a
succession of charges which were very much an appropriate contribution
to the theme of the group.  He then (allegedly) commits mass murder in
a shooting spree, apparently in response to unbearable pressures, again
which are very topical to careers in research and academia.

And YOU don't think that this warrants further discussion in this newsgroup?

> Academic?  Make sense?  Got that?  Great.

Lighten up, oh diplomatic one.  This is the Internet.  Use your kill key.
-- 

| Randy Crawford        crawford@mitre.org        The MITRE Corporation
|                                                 7525 Colshire Dr., MS Z421
| N=1 -> P=NP           703 883-7940              McLean, VA  22102
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: rjones@z.eecs.umich.edu (Randolph M. Jones)
Subject: Re: Do the police have Fabrikant's postings?
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 21:26:36 GMT

In article <1992Aug25.211931.12120@reed.edu> orpheus@reed.edu (P. Hawthorne) writes:
|The events that have unfolded before us are stunning, and I would prefer to
|get over the ersatz trauma of having followed the thread to it's horrible
|conclusion, but I feel compelled to ask: Do the police have copies of his
|recent posts here? I mean, are we sure that they've been handed over?

I also wonder whether there would be anything of interest in his computer
directory..."finger ccyfk56@vax2.concordia.ca" and check the time of
last login.
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: maniattb@cs.rpi.edu (Bill Maniatty)
Subject: Re: Please Don't Post Irrelevant Stuff
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 22:44:39 GMT

In an earlier post I expressed my apologies for the previous post based on the
traumatic events at Concordia University.  I did not recognize the post for
what it was, and should not have critiqued the style.

I was not aware of just how far the situation had escalated
(the news broke shortly after my post I gather, but didn't reach me until about
midnight last night).  My condolences to those involved.


-- 
|
|	maniattb@cs.rpi.edu - in real life Bill Maniatty
|
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: maniattb@cs.rpi.edu (Bill Maniatty)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers,alt.grad-student.tenured
Subject: Re: Second Undergraduate Degree, or transitional master's
Date: 26 Aug 92 23:50:34 GMT

I have 2 Bachelors degrees.  I got a BA in philosophy and BS in comp. sci.
consecutively (took 6 years total).  I'm currently doing graduate work in
comp. sci.  If you have a solid general understanding of computation, you will
probably do all right in a program.  You can always take courses to compensate
for weaknesses.  If your heart is really in an area, and you have a solid general
background in that area, you are probably capable of graduate work in most fields.
To get admission to a good program may be more difficult.

Bill
-- 
|
|	maniattb@cs.rpi.edu - in real life Bill Maniatty
|