HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: clin@eng.umd.edu (Charles Lin)
Subject: Re: Racist/Sexist Role Models
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 21:55:27 GMT
Organization: College of Engineering, Maryversity von Uniland, College Park
Originator: clin@signal.eng.umd.edu


In article <1egrcbINNdd@debussy.crhc.uiuc.edu>, guillory@crhc.uiuc.edu (Stanford Guillory) writes:
>brian@quake.sylmar.ca.us (Brian K. Yoder) writes:
>
>
>Using your logic, there is no possible solution to the problems minorities face
>in this country. If someone says that they want to increase the number of black
>engineers, then they are going to do something for blacks that they are not doing
>for whites. Bias is commonly used to solve  some of the country's problems. Seniority
>systems to help older workers, veteran preference to help former members of the 
>armed forces get adjusted, and on and on. I think that sometimes, bias is an acceptable
>approach to solving a problem. And the problem of underachievement by minorities is a
>serious one that will have repercussions throughout the next century. You seem to think
>that the problem will just go away and if it doesn't, then that is too bad, because
>we can't do anything "special" to help.

    The question is whether such "bias" is ultimately effective.  For example,
if all black engineers who graduated last year were all hired, would this
be enough?    It may turn out that there are many more blacks (I have no stats)
who are poorer and/or less educated, and that since poor families may
give rise to poor children, then it may be, even under the most liberal
of hiring practices, the problem would still be there.

    The question is, therefore, what is the goal of preferential treatment?
Is it to create a percentage of engineers that is equivalent to the
racial or female percentages in society?   Do we have enough engineers
graduating that makes this even possible?   Even if the numbers increased
by this method, how effective is this in getting more students to go
into engineering.   How effective are "role" models?  

    For example, if we hire all the black and all the women
engineers graduating today, and there are still problems attracting
minorities and women,  how we will explain the problem?   That not
enough is being done?   Perhaps there is a deep, underlying problem.
One could attribute it to racism, but one might also attribute it
to attitudes about learning science or engineering, or even in
learning at all.   

    One ought to investigate all the possibilities of why something
is happening, rather than just taking the explanation that everyone
gives as the root of the problem.

--
Charles Lin
clin@eng.umd.edu
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: spanton@oswald.cs.odu.edu (William Spanton)
Subject: Seeking Technology Plans
Organization: Old Dominion University, Norfolk, VA, USA
Distribution: misc
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 19:31:51 GMT

Hello,
    Our school has plans to build a teaching and learning center which will
network our three campuses; elementary, middle, and high schools.  We will
be able to telecompute from all classrooms, computer labs, and teachers'
and administration offices.  We will have available the latest software and
laser/videodisc technologies.
    I am the principal of the elementary division and am interested in what
your school is doing with technology.  I am interested in your plans for
the future.  Do you have a technology plan?  Will you share it?  We will
share our plan with those who respond.

Sincerely,

Rachael C. Hopkins
Norfolk Academy
1585 Wesleyan Drive
Norfolk,  VA  23502
Newsgroups: misc.education,sci.astro,sci.bio,sci.chem,sci.math,sci.physics
From: wkl1@Ra.MsState.Edu (Wing-Keong Loke                                               the consummate chronic prevaricator)
Subject: Re: What can we have for an educational system?
Organization: Mississippi State University
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 08:58:53 GMT


About lousy doctors, I either read or saw this on t.v. .  Somebody did a
bit of snooping around and found that every intern has his share of
having misdiagnosed somebody. One doc even said that he probably killed
someone when he was an intern (I don't know if it's by a misdiagnosis).
Apparently, the doc's story isn't rare, though I don't think it's
that often :).

Wing

Newsgroups: misc.education,alt.discrimination,soc.culture.african.american,soc.women
From: fiddler@concertina.Eng.Sun.COM (steve hix)
Newsgroups: misc.education,sci.astro,sci.bio,sci.chem,sci.math,sci.physics
Subject: Re: What can we have for an educational system?
Date: 18 Nov 1992 19:17:35 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: concertina

In article <BxwrDA.6ns@quake.sylmar.ca.us> brian@quake.sylmar.ca.us (Brian K. Yoder) writes:
>In article <1992Nov16.143453.22123@news.unige.ch> swann@divsun.unige.ch (SWANN Philip) writes:
>
>>On the contrary, I think that the legal and medical professions contain
>>about the same proportion of mediocrities and incompetents as the teaching
>>profession does. 
>
>On what basis do you reach that conclusion?  If nothing else, I have never had
>a medical problem which was not well-treated by my doctor.  

Give yourself a bit more time...it will eventually happen.  (What's the figure
for mortality due to "medical excursions" in the U.S. in a year? 900K or so?)

I've had doctors admit to making mistakes more than once with our family in
the past five years.  Fortunately all on minor issues.  It's a good thing that
we haven't had to deal with any *major* issues so far.

>I have never had bad advice from my lawyer.  

Lucky you.  Maybe you should talk to my father about problems caused by
incompetent lawyers.  He are one, he knows some scary stories.

>Additionally, I have never had a doctor who thought that sickness was OK.  

There are altogether too many who figure it's ok to wait until a problem
manifests itself annoyingly and needs to be treated by surgery or some
severe drug therapy, rather than bugging patients to try to fix root
problems so that don't *get* big.  (But that's a chronic problem with
medicine out here...)

>I HAVE had teachers who thought that ignorance was perfectly acceptable.  

Nothing wrong with ignorance...there *is* something wrong with not fixing
the problem when you discover that you *are* ignorant.  (Maybe that was
their point of view?)



--
-------------------------------------------------------
| Some things are too important not to give away      |
| to everybody else and have none left for yourself.  |
-------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: brian@quake.sylmar.ca.us (Brian K. Yoder)
Subject: Re: Why Johnny can't tell right from wrong.
Organization: Quake Public Access
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 13:12:42 GMT

In article <00722135684@elgamy.uucp.taronga.com> elg@elgamy.uucp.taronga.com (Eric Lee Green) writes:
>From article <1992Nov16.144944.23285@asl.dl.nec.com>, by dillhoff@aslws01.asl.dl.nec.com (Doug Dillhoff):
>> The title is "Why Johnny can't tell right from wrong.", by Kilpatrick, a
>> thoughts? It is a case for character education as opposed to the current
>> and past emphasis on descision making skills and allowing the child

>H.I.S.D. is big on "character education" Kilpatrick style. I can't see
>where it makes much difference. 

Well, for many kids (particularly the ones whose parents are not the most 
responsible) there is more contact between them and teachers than with
their parents.

>My parents tell my kids, "If another kid
>bothers you, beat him to a pulp." 

In districts where the teachers don't have any real disciplinary power, is that
such bad advice?

>My parents tell my kids, "Them teachers
>is there only cuz they can't do nuthin' else." 

Isn't this often true?  Would you suggest that parents lie to their kids?

>The kids do not respect each
>other, and they do not respect their teachers. 

I think that the solution to this is for the teachers to be truly deserving
of respect, and for them to insist on respectful behavior from students.
There is generally a lack of both.

>In fact, one teacher at the
>school I teach at got a split lip and another got the wind knocked out of
>her by a kid who decided teachers were fair game. Then the parent comes up
>to the school and says "What are you people doing to my poor child, my
>child isn't a discipline problem," etc. etc.... one parent personally
>threatened to turn me into an ink blot on the pavement for disciplining his
>daughter, who "isn't a behavior problem" but who somehow despite that
>managed to drench me with the entire contents of a milk carton, dashed into
>my face.

Woudln't it be nice if disgruntled parents could choose where their students
go to school?  Wouldn't it be nice if disruptive students could be easily
expelled?  When the state chains unwilling schools to unwilling students that
things like this can get out of hand.

>When the parents are saying this to the kids... what choice do we have
>besides telling the kids, "don't listen to your parents"? 

Perhaps YOU should listen to them!  Anyway, if a parent DOES tell his kid
something wrong, you SHOULD tell him the truth.  Kids respect honesty
tremendously, and they recognize phonies a mile away.  I think that's a
big part of the reason they disrespect most teachers.  

>If anything makes
>me get out of the inner city, it will be this issue. I'm the wrong color to
>be telling these kids that their parents are raising them wrong. If a black
>man said it, it would be okay... if I say it, I'm a racist.

So you lie to them and their parents then?  What kind os respect do you think
this engenders?  Or do you think your students and parents are too stupid
to tell whether you are being honest with them?

--Brian
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: wright@rain.cs.odu.edu (LET'S DO EDUCATION)
Subject: Re: Racist/Sexist Role Models
Followup-To: misc.education
Organization: Old Dominion University, Norfolk, VA, USA
	<1992Nov19.210732.13959@noose.ecn.purdue.edu> <2416@usna.NAVY.MIL>
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 18:20:52 GMT

Well, I have not been following the thread on this subject too closely, but
I would like to state my opinion in one easy sentence about this subject:

"We need to start grasping the idea of  *_A_*  way and not  *_THE_*  way!"

Comments welcomed.  Flames and e-mails go to /dev/null  !!

Wright
Instructional Computing
Newsgroups: misc.education,sci.astro,sci.bio,sci.chem,sci.math,sci.physics
From: kmushal@eis.calstate.edu (KAYE MUSHALIK)
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: Re: School Year Round
Date: 18 Nov 92 06:28:59 GMT
Organization: Calif State Univ/Electronic Information Services

dhosek@cbrown.claremont.edu writes:
> In article <BxuI4r.5yr@access.digex.com>, mjensen@access.digex.com (MPJensen) writes:
> >>hunter@master.lds-az.loral.com (Bill Hunter) writes:
> 
> >>I am a School Board Member in Arizona.  We are currently reviewing a
> >>schedule change from traditional to year Round classes... I am looking
> >>for some strong arguments for and against this issue.  
>  
> > Keeping school buildings in continuous use will increase maintenance
> > costs and utility expenditures.  A Nebraska district estimated at least a
> > 25% increase (mostly from AC--hot summers!)
> 
> On the other hand, it will cost considerably less to pay a
> teacher X% more than to add X% more teachers. This is the main
> justification for year-round schooling in most places that do it:
> by running school year round, fewer teachers can teach more
> students without having over-large classes. Someone described a
> model where all students were present all year. Never heard of
> that. More common is 2/3 of the students are in school at any
> given semester.
> 
> -dh
 
I'm not sure I understand that last statement about "fewer teachers can 
teach more students without having over-large classes."

I teach in a 4-track year-round school in San Jose, CA. Basically, 4 teachers
share three classrooms. Our schedule is approx. 12 weeks in school and 4 weeks
on vacation. The school year starts the first of July (give or take a few days
depending upon on which day the 4th of July falls). The end of the school
year is usually around the end of the 3rd week in June. We still teach 180
days.

Getting back to the above statement - I don't see that "fewer" teachers
can teach "more" students. However, our SCHOOL can handle MORE students
during the school year. We HAD to go to year-round in our district due to 
the population growth in this area. If I had my "druthers", I'd opt for 
year-round school with one track-no changing classrooms (a con) while having
more frequent, short (more retention) vacations (less teacher burnout too) 
(a pro).

***Kaye Mushalik
   Hillsdale Y-R Elem.
   San Jose, CA
   INTERNET: kmushal@eis.calstate.edu
Newsgroups: boulder.general
From: hassell@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Christopher Hassell)
Subject: Re: Amendment 2
Organization: (Let's see, I'm positive <clang> .. I've <rustle> got ... )
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 06:12:58 GMT

rcd@raven.eklektix.com (Dick Dunn) writes:

[ In the style of scripture mistranslated into archaic dialects of English,
[ as you invoke later, I would offer
[ 	"Judge not, that ye be not judged"
[ 	"`Vengeance is mine' saith the Lord"
[ ...or, in modern terms, "Who died and made you a god???"

Not really.  I think the modern terms look a tad bit different.
Mistranslated?  Nope.

	Do not judge, or else you will be judged.
	"It is mine to avenge; I will repay." says the Lord.

Looks pretty modern to me.

[ >"Jesus saith unto him, I am THE way, THE truth, and THE life: NO MAN
[ >cometh unto the Father, BUT BY ME"  John 14:6

Replace eth with "id" and "s" and remove "un"s.  Done.

[ One of life's abiding mysteries is why there is a nearly perfect corre-
[ lation between postings which rant and rail Lear-like against everything
[ and nothing, and caps-lock keys that stick for no apparent reason.

I dunno.  I find them useful to EMPHASIZE words.  Is that illegal?

[ >"The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God."

[ OK, cool...by the teachings of the same God you invoke, you're leading the
[ rest of us in the march down the stairway to hell.

Leading?  No.  Watching lots of folks, yes, and yet exactly who?  Who knows.

Learn something about Christ and the Lord.  You and many others are merely
offended that Christ left a clause about not being "morphed" into a
sub-religion under another god and faith.  Hinduism has the ability to fit 
anyone in.. so long as they don't mind ignoring some absolutes.

There is such a thing as Sin.  Is it "fixable" via laws.  God only knows, but I
do think it is a bad idea.

[ -- 
[ Dick Dunn    rcd@raven.eklektix.com   -or-   raven!rcd    Boulder, Colorado
[ 	...Simpler is better.
-- 
If you are getting mail from me, my apologies for confusiong you ##############
### C>H> ### boulder.colorado.edu!tramp!hassell #### "Nietzsche is dead." -God
-- 
If you are getting mail from me, my apologies for confusiong you ##############
### C>H> ### boulder.colorado.edu!tramp!hassell #### "Nietzsche is dead." -God
Newsgroups: boulder.general
From: bartana@uni.Colorado.EDU (Ido Bar-tana)
Subject: Word & Excel for Sale
Reply-To: bartana@uni.Colorado.EDU (Ido Bar-tana)
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 00:03:29 GMT


Word for Windows 1.1 - $30
Excel 3.0 - $50

Both for $70

Ido
Newsgroups: boulder.general
From: mneves@Colorado.EDU (Michelle Neves)
Subject: Table & entertainment system for sale
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: 16 Nov 92 00:10:02 GMT

Nice oak table and two chairs      $150/obo
Entertainment system cabinet       $75/obo
 (holds TV, VCR, entire stereo 
  system)

Contact Rich or Michelle Neves (786-7321) or
neves@anchor.cs.colorado.edu or mneves@coma.colorado.edu
Newsgroups: boulder.general
From: hartmann@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Jason Hartmann)
Subject: Commodore 64 For Sale
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 04:12:21 GMT

I have a unresponsive (broken) Commodore 64C with lots of options.
It includes a Commodore color monitor with a great picture, a Commodore
1541 5.25" floppy disk drive, a Commodore MPS803 dot matrix printer, and
an expansive software library.  Everything but the computer works great
and someone with experience with Commodores could probably fix the computer.
Mail me if you're intrested in this powerful yet versitile computing system.
                                Jason
				hartmann@ucsu.colorado.edu

Newsgroups: boulder.general
From: dixit@spot.Colorado.EDU (DIXIT SANJAY)
Subject: Air Tx: 1 way DEN NY
Keywords: air tic, denver, ny
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 22:17:48 GMT

I have a one way ticket on Continental Airlines from Denver to
NY for travel before Dec 31st, 1992. The date can be changed
from Dec 31st for only $25. Asking $125 or bo. Call (303)
499-3924 or email.

Sanjay Dixit
Newsgroups: boulder.general
From: fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary)
Subject: Re: Amendment 2
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 00:08:48 GMT

In article <By3250.Luq@csn.org> perrier@teal.csn.org (Perry A. Branch) writes:
>Second, should the housing owner (notice I'm talking about housing,
>such as apartments or condos etc.  Not the same dwelling as the owner, such
>as a basement apartment or a duplex) be able to discriminate against jews?

Should he, or should there be a law against it? It's possible to 
oppose a practice, but still think the government should stay out of
the matter.

Should such an owner be able to discriminate against people who throw
loud parties until late hours? Clearly, the owner has _some_ rights, as
to whom he will and will not rent. Should the government take away 
these rights and make all such decisions for him? That would depend
on the situation and the form of the discrimination. But any such
law is an infringment on the owner's rights. 
 
                                                  Frank Crary
                                                  CU Boulder
From: max@underg.ucf.org (Max Cray)
Newsgroups: austin.public-net
Subject: Today's Working Group Meeting
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 92 00:56:07 CST
Organization: Underground Computing Foundation


The working group meeting was held today at my house. Jay is supposed
to post more complete notes, but I thought I would post a quick summary
of what I think got accomplished.

Sorry I do not have full names and net addresses. Jay will be posting
this I think.

Jay brought a copy of the letter of incorporation, and after some
discussion it was agreed that it was acceptable. The name of the new
non-profit organization will be: Austin Public Net, Inc. The preliminary
officers are: Bob, Chris P., Jay, Lisa, and Tim. The letter of incorporation
will be posted to the net by Jay or Chris P.

This initial officers are temporary until the first officers are elected
at the first membership meeting. That meeting is scheduled for Saturday,
December 12th. The location and time have not yet been determined. 
Obviously this meeting will be very important. The current directors/
officers we have to determine if there will be any working meetings
in between now, and then.

There was some discussion of the bylaws for the organization. There
was concern that the executive committee was not answerable to the
mebership. The proposed bylaws will be posted to the net, after Lisa gets
a crack at improving them, I think.

Also Chris P will be starting a mailing list for those actively working
on the project. Send him mail if you want on it.

                                          -= Max =-

---------------------------------------------------------------------
 I try to be my own moderator...
From: max@underg.ucf.org (Max Cray)
Newsgroups: austin.public-net
Subject: Re: Let's do it NOW
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 23:05:37 CST
Organization: Underground Computing Foundation

petrilli@nextover.pe.utexas.edu (Chris Petrilli) writes:

> Well, this was a minimum idea, working from minimum resources.  If we could  
> start on Internet, then we would most certainly do so, but if we couldn't  
> (which is what the proposal assumed), then the stages would be necessary.  
> Also, a staged entry of Internet would allow people to use Internet before  
> they start putting their home machines on Internet.

It seems we are in agreement here then. We should provide access to the
Internet as soon as possible. I also agree that providing dialup access
to a machine on the Internet would be quicker and more practical to do
now.
   The only real problem with providing SLIP access is that it might
use up resources from others. We do not want the few to hog the resources
that are for the many. However I also think that if we can get the resources
we should provide as much as we can.

                                          -= Max =-

---------------------------------------------------------------------
 I try to be my own moderator...
From: max@underg.ucf.org (Max Cray)
Newsgroups: austin.public-net
Subject: Re: Let's do it NOW
Keywords: public net austin free
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 22:56:09 CST
Organization: Underground Computing Foundation

george@wixer.cactus.org (George Wenzel) writes:

> I can provide the hardware and a UNIX license for start-up purposes.
> However we need a funding base before we can do much more than that.  

Excellent. Thanks.
 
> We need a plan for paying for the things that we can't get for free.

Another possibility would be to just do it with whatever we can get for
free. Dealing with money will take more administration. Unless we get
administrative volunteers. Any CPA's out there  want to handle the money?
 
> I have run a multiuser bbs here in Austin for a good number of years.  I
> charge a fee for access, in an effort to reduce my losses.  I am currently
> bringing in about 50% of what it takes to cover the phone bills.  I would
> be willing to move much of what I have going now and make it free for all
> users.  However I need to stress that there needs to be a source of funding
> to pay for the phone bills. 
> 
> If we get an internet connection, and some office space, GREAT!  However we
> need to get that phone bill covered too.

We need to find out how this would be handled with whoever it is located at.
I am still trying to get a hold of Steve Blair at Dell. It is RUMOURED that
Dell would also provide phone lines, but I did not speak to Steve about it.
I will ask him about it when I talk to him again.
 
> Is there anyone working on getting some grants or donations?

There has been talk, but to my knowledge no one is doing it yet.

                                          -= Max =-

---------------------------------------------------------------------
 I try to be my own moderator...
From: malirath@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Robert Fisher)
Newsgroups: austin.public-net
Subject: A Macintosh Perspective
Date: 17 Nov 92 00:16:19 GMT
Reply-To: malirath@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Robert Fisher)
Distribution: austin
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX
Originator: malirath@dopey.cc.utexas.edu

<sigh> I didn't learn about this group until 2 days after the meeting. :(

On a minor point from a Macintosh perspective:

There are many good programs available for the Macintosh that act as
front-ends for internet services: news, mail, ftp, gopher, etc. They
have nice user-interfaces that are easy for the average Mac user to
deal with. Unfortunately, all these program require at least a SLIP
connection.

Thus, in order to reach the greatest number of possible Macintosh users
of the free-net, a SLIP connection would be the best choice.

There is an additional hinderance though. The software that allows these
programs to operate over SLIP (like MacSLIP) cost something like $50 to
individuals. I know UT has it setup were they can give MacSLIP to university
users for about $10. Hopefully the free-net could get a similiar deal.
-- 
		===========================================
		Robert Fisher / malirath@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
		===========================================