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Date:         Thu, 12 Nov 1992 09:18:32 -0400
From:         WIDDKB85@SNYONEVA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: dancing

        Dancing lets your body express what words sometimes can't
        Whoever wrote the music to dance by list, excellent choices!!!
        -  peace and peanut butter -  Kathleen
From: ap290@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ruth M. Hanschka)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.xcult-l
Subject: Re: Dogma's Iron Cage
Date: 6 Nov 1992 05:40:36 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
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In a previous article, AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET () says:

>You express my views very well.... I just simply say I am an Agnostic...
>
>Now in my 40's, I think it immoral to to waste opportunities to enjoy
>this gift of life we have.... we seem to have built so many fears that
>we will not reach "Heaven" that we martyr ourselves to that goal...
>
>Zahir
What kind of opportunities do you miss by not reaching for Heaven?  According
to my belief system [Christianity] it's impossible to earn one's way in,
so the kind of martyrdom you're talking about is pretty useless.  Saying
penance and doing Mitvahs are pretty useless, unless they're done for some
other reason than brownie points.  Other than avoiding some rather stupid
and foolish things, I don't think I've wasted any opportunities yet to 
"enjoy this gift of life".
What do I mean by foolish?  Well, there's always promiscuous sex if you want
a prime example.  These days, that's suicidal, and it was always dangerous.
Then there's drinking to excess; I don't think getting sloppy and hung over
is anything to brag about.  Bad headaches are certainly nothing enjoyable;
I get my share of those already, thanks.  I don't need more.  

What's not foolish?  Long-term monogamous relationships, in my opinion are
about the most  un-foolish things there are.  I've seen examples of great
marriages up close, and it seems to me that settling for anything less *is*
foolish and a waste.  Doing things you don't especially enjoy, because 
someone else needs help, is not foolish.  Working to change something in
this world that you perceive as wrong is not foolish, although others around
you may say that it is.  Following a dream isn't foolish, even if you don't
know how to get where you're going and can't find a road map. 

Some of the least "worldly" people I know have the most fun in this lifetime.
Others are having no fun at all.  Both look forward to rewards in the afterlife
[if it exists].  Would you deny them the hope of that?  Is hope foolish too?
-- 
		###	Ruth Hanschka, the Nethead    ###
			- ap290@cleveland.freenet.edu
	      Where anything can happen, and it usually does
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Date:         Sat, 7 Nov 1992 13:46:00 CST
From:         "KRISTA L. BENNETT" <KLBHO@CANAL.CRC.UNO.EDU>
Subject:      Dogma's Iron Cage

Ruth:
     You seem to equate religious martyrdom with earning "brownie points"
to get into "Heaven". I see it as something different. I was always under
the impression that religious martyrdom was more like overkill--spending
your WHOLE life's light on some higher religious goal. My point is
that I personally think we have a reponsibility to make our lives
here on Earth as rich as we can. I don't mean that people who are religious are
wasting their time, but, for example, I grew up in Salt Lake City and
ran into a lot of people that ONLY worked toward this goal of Heaven--my
grandmother did that, and I don't think she died feeling fulfilled with
her life. A personal view of my OWN on the situation I assure you, but
nonetheless think it would be a tragedy to put all of one's effort into
something if it felt terribly uncertain. If it is fulfilling to that
person, than I would certainly not, as you put it, "take that hope away from
them". Religion is many people's means of hope in times of trouble. Music is
mine, philosophy is my roommate's, etc, etc... The point is not
that all religious people are wasting their time, just that it is
difficult to reach with all one's might to an uncertain goal. Those
that feel it isn't  uncertain don't have to worry about it, I guess.
Furthermore, not all of us non-believers go around doing "foolish
things" like sleeping around or taking drugs... That is a VERY DANGEROUS
assumption, which I find that I run into time and time again. Would you be
surprised to find that most of the Agnostics and Athiests I know have
moral codes that don't differ in any significant way from your "Christian"
ones???? I don't do drugs, and am very much in favor of long-term,
monogamous relationships in this day and age (PERSONAL MORALS-- I
am not trying to push them on anyone), and yet I am not a Christian.
I hope that your implication was not that those without
Christian religion, or religion at all, are more likely to do these
"foolish things" than anyone else, because if it was, you
are bound to find that it is very wrong. Be careful about attaching
a stigma to those who don't fit into the typical "Judeo-Christian"
mold for society. There are some of us out here who are good
people nonetheless.
-----Krista
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Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 10:01:43 -0500
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Dogma's Iron Cage

Ruth,

No, I don't think you are some right wing fundamentalist nut.... though,
I do not agree with you.....

I did say that sometimes attempts to get into heaven keep us from making
a heaven on earth and to enjoy life.....

I wonder if your list of "foolish" things is based on religion...or what..
You seem to be looking at things in a black or white mode....

Its not monagamous relationships or AIDS...I know lots of people who have
sex with more than one person who are perfectly happy and safe... there is no
reason to assume that sex with one person is safe and sex with two is not...
relationship and sex do not have to go together always...for those who can
handle it (and believe me there are those), their spouse meets a lot of
needs and their ONE other lover/mistress meets the sex need more effectively
and everyone is aware of the existence of the other....

Relationships should be based upon love not sex (and words like monogamous
do not belong).  If one loves someone, they would want that person to be
happy without dictating what they should or should not do..


Regarding alcohol excess...excess of anything is foolish...though I think
excess of alcohol and/or cigarettes are a lot more dangerous than the
moderate use of marijuana or cocaine or sex.... though I don't have much
use for any intoxicating substance....

zahir
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Date:         Thu, 12 Nov 1992 18:10:52 -0200
From:         Alcino Dall Igna Junior <adij@DI.UFPE.BR>
Subject:      Re: rape

Zahir

> crimes of a personal nature in the U.S., but this thing about maniacs and
> cannibals is a bit much....

Don't be so serious :-). Maybe as a cultural way we tend to exaggerate things
to point out something and love to make some funny of them. In some sense, is
a way we find to manage our own a bit dangerous life.

> In general, kids who grow up in tight families do very well economically
> but do not excell in as many wide areas as do American children...This

I think that you never heard about the brazilian "jeitinho", our live it's
sometimes so hard that we learn how to skirt the difficulties, and to
this you need a lot of creativity.

I don't agree with all Marcos' writings, in fact I diverge a lot from him, but:

> playgrounds and practise sports as much and rarely do these cultures
> produce a Michael Jordan or a Carl Lewis or be allowed to grow up to

it's this a matter of freedom? BTW, US never produces a Pele', nor a Zico,
nor...

Alcino
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Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1992 11:41:38 -0500
From:         x91ahmed4@GW.WMICH.EDU
Subject:      Re: woman as president

Zahir...

I believe you were saying that putting veil is not Islamic but Cultural....
which is wrong...woman covering there body is Islamic....

Ahmed
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Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1992 09:23:15 -0500
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Guns and syringes

Emmy,

You say "we can't end making weapons...that's unrealistic" and you also
say "We can't ban ALL weapons" and "We can't stop the usage of all
weapons".....

Perhaps you are right on all three statements... I don't know..  ALL I
am saying is that the makers of weapons are JUST as guilty, if not more
for the killings that result from those weapons....

When the same weapons are used in a JUST (if there ever such a thing) WAR,
the makers use quotes of the soldiers and take credit for the success and
when the same weapons is used by someone in the inner cities, they do not want
the blame....

Zahir
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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 16:47:41 -0500
From:         x91ahmed4@GW.WMICH.EDU
Subject:      Re: Veils, etc.

hello Schrimer....
I believe you are right but okay for example we take out religion..for a
 second..but We humans are believe to be the most intelligrny life form on this
 earth..
but how come we are behaving less then animals..It's hard to imagine such thing
happening in the society...i think they don't deserve live in this society..they
 are polluting the enviroment....and are spreading evil on this earth...

Ahmed
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Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 09:07:23 -0700
From:         4FMH011@MC.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Guns and syringes

Sorry Zahir are you joking?  Weapons are every where. It does not have to
be a tank or a knife, it could be a stick or a broken glass. I could list
you an infinite number of weapons that no one have thought of.  Weapons
control intention is to make sure that people know what does these weapons
capable of. Also educate people when to use a weapon.  There is no way you
can tell a bad person from a good one. So, people who use their weapon
wrongly should be punished.
Who knew that Bosna would be in that situation? It's the world job to help
Who knew that Bosna would be in that situation? It's the world job to help
Bosna not just say the U.S. will handle it. And it's time to punish the bad
people by wisdom not by barbarity.

Alan
From: U350000@UNIVSCVM.BITNET (Kerry Reese)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.xcult-l
Subject: Another new subscriber: Role of the United Nations
Date: 12 Nov 92 18:45:15 GMT
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Hello X-Cult members!  I am a new member and an international relations
university student in the United States.  I am writing a paper in an
international law class that advocates the elimination of militaries in
favor of a world police or world government.  (Our professor wants us to
describe our ideals, not reality now).  This subject interests me.  I
would like to know some opinions from different countries about this
topic, because I am curious and interested.  What is your opinion about
the United Nations and a future world government?  Do you think that a
world government should be created someday?  What kind of government
should it be? (democracy, socialist, theocracy, etc).  Any replies from
any country are welcome.  Thank you. It is a pleasure to talk to you.

                                             Kerry Reese
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Date:         Fri, 13 Nov 1992 09:55:06 -0200
From:         Alcino Dall Igna Junior <adij@DI.UFPE.BR>
Subject:      Re: Veils, etc.

> As for the suggestion thatwe are saying the same thing, that could not be
> further from the truth.

I'm not so sure.

> Dougl           *     \   BTW,           *
> The          .         >  we see it   *  . *
> Southern      *   *   /   this way
> Cross           *    /                  *
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 08:57:05 -0500
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Veils, etc.

Ahmed,

What you are writing about is "date rape"...which is different from
other rapes.....

However, the answer to a problem is not to ban dates entirely....  Yes,
on occassion, someone may have been raped or attacked....but the answer
is not "banning" the activity (party, dating and so on) but to learn to be
more careful....

In some countries, to "protect" women they have been prevented from driving,
dressing as they please or even voting.... Why can we not live and let live..
let the women decide for themselves what they wear or where they go....

zahir
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Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 11:10:12 -0500
From:         x91ahmed4@GW.WMICH.EDU
Subject:      Re: Veils, etc.

Ruth...
I think regarding psychological aspects to rape...It usually occur due to
attractiveness...which is shown by the way a person is dressed...What I
think is that when a woman covers herself then she won't be showing
her beauty in front of others which can prevent from such an infortunate
incident.....It's basically the physical attractivness which motivates a
person in doing such an act....

Ahmed
From: ap290@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ruth M. Hanschka)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.xcult-l
Subject: cancer cures
Date: 7 Nov 1992 07:48:44 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
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Emmy, why did that list of stuff remind me of a)quack diets, and b)quack
ritual magick/New Age?:-(  Some people are desperate enough to try anything,
unfortunately.  Might as well try a faith healer while they're at it.  As
long as the "healer" works for free, it couldn't be any worse for the
"patient" than the so-called cures.   Heck, it might even work - the
faith healing, that is.  As far as those diets go, they might work too,
but not because of anything to do with the diet itself.  The placebo effect
has been known to work before.:-)  

Somehow, that bit about not taking a salt water bath within three days of
a full moon still doesn't sound real.  It sounds like a line from a
really bad "high fantasy" novel.:-)  I just wish some of this stuff were
an urban legend like the LSD lick-on tatoos.  Those surfaced on the 5 'clock
news on a local television station.  They were warning people about them -
which is funny because they probably never existed.:-)
-- 
		###	Ruth Hanschka, the Nethead    ###
			- ap290@cleveland.freenet.edu
	      Where anything can happen, and it usually does
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Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 22:32:00 EDT
From:         JDAVIS@BENTLEY.BITNET
Subject:      New list EVANGE-L

There is a new list available for xcult-l users- evange-l.  EVANGE-L is
dedicated to the evangelical dissemination of religious propoganda.  It doesn't
care about your religious affiliation - Christian, Muslim, Buddist, Druids,
Voodooist, Atheist, Shamanist, etc. (no agnostics please - only die-hard
dogmatists need apply).

Rather than wasting your time on xcult-l, where subscribers are open-minded,
you can:
 * belittle other belief systems
 * insist on the absolute rightness of your own dogma
 * make fun of others
 * be intolerant of others' views

To join,  send the command:
sub evange-l (yourfirstname yourlast name yourreligion)
to:
listserv@dogma.bitnet if you are bitnet or
listserv@dogma.dog.ign if you are on the internet

Happy evangelism!
From: 4FMH011@MC.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.xcult-l
Subject: Re: open
Date: 6 Nov 92 01:12:02 GMT
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Cana,

I read your writing about BRAZIL.  And one day you may see me there.
Traveling is fun, isn't it?

Alan
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Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 21:09:37 EST
From:         Mary Ellen Ugactz-Fernandez <ugactz@CUNIXF.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Ethics

Gosh, this was the only message available at the moment so I hope you
don't mind me posting this under this heading...

Has anyone ever heard of Mercedes SOsa? What a wonderful singer...
well, she sings this absolutely lovely song called "Gracias a la
vida"... (Thank you Life) where she elaborates on all the wonderful
things in life...for instance...
Let me try and remember the song....hmmmm

Thank you Life
that has given me so much
given me two eyes
that when I open
I can distinguish perfectly
black from white
in the sky so high
the deep, starry sky-

I can't think of the rest right now, and gosh, my spanish isn't so
great... I'm sutdying it...but it's a wonderful testament to life... a
secular tribute... a tribute that anyone can listen to and appreciate,
I think...

Mercedes SOsa will be appearing at Carnegie Hall , soon, in a week or
two in New York...(No, this is n't a commercial :) ). Bute I would
recommend her highly...even if you don't understand spanish...her
concerts are like visiting another world...really.... she's
wonderful...

/Emmy
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Date:         Thu, 12 Nov 1992 20:10:48 -0500
From:         x91ahmed4@GW.WMICH.EDU
Subject:      Re: Veils, etc.

Zahir...
i think I get your point Probably with dating nothing is wrong here..but
in other countries where family bonds are strong it matters
Ahmed...
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Subject: Re: Veils, etc.
Date: 6 Nov 92 19:48:36 GMT
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                                Veils in Islam
                              ------------------

        Islam asks women to ware decent outfit and cover their hair when they
go out of their houses for protection from men who like to bother women, but
inside their houses they can ware what ever they feel comfortable unless some-
one is coming to visit in house like brother in law, friend, or a stranger(plume
   r, etc..) then they should ware decent and cover thier hair just to protect a
   nd
because you don't know what is going inside these people.  There are a statistic
   s that says that most of the rape incidentds in the U.S. happens with known
person like a friend, brother in law, or a relative( cousin ).
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 11:11:15 -0500
From:         AHMED@DAYTON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: re : ethics

Klaus,

In your reply to the questionaire regarding ethics, you give an example
of rats who begin killing each other including babies till the population is man
   ageable
and you state that we don't want to reach that level as humans....

Haven't we already?  We continue to allow arms to be made in our country
and also supply the amunition for humans to kill other humans...  Those
people in Africa and the middle East would kill far fewer of each other
if we could let them fight with their spears and their swords....

...But we cannot shut down our "defense" industries or our unemployment will
grow...  Keep on selling them tanks and them automatic weapons....

zahir
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Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 14:28:50 EST
From:         Mary Ellen Ugactz-Fernandez <ugactz@CUNIXF.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Guns and syringes

Zahir:

It seems you are either all the way to the left...or all the way to the
right...where's the middle with you?

/EMmy
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Date:         Thu, 12 Nov 1992 20:15:05 -0500
From:         x91ahmed4@GW.WMICH.EDU
Subject:      Re: Veils, etc.

Krista...
Yes you might be right on macho stuff but...Some time one of the party is
drunk...
Ahmed
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X-Original-To:  xcult-l@psuvm.bitnet, CLIFF
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Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 16:04:00 +0200
From:         CLIFF@EGAUCACS.BITNET
Subject:      PhD programs in Turkic Languages & Linguistics

Hello! I am currently on faculty at the American University in Cairo. I
am interested in starting a PhD program in Turkic Languages & Linguistics.
I am also interested in Ottoman & Modern Turkish History. Can anyone suggest
any good programs in the U.S.? I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks,
Cliff Gardner
Cliff@EGAUCACS
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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 16:37:08 -0500
From:         x91ahmed4@GW.WMICH.EDU
Subject:      Re: Veils, etc.

these were facts which were shown by my college regarding the rapes on
campus...