From: irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (Brent Irvine)
Subject: Re: education (was: Re: DOES AMERICA SAY YES TO JAPAN?)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 16:57:43 GMT

In article <HARKCOM.92Dec16083416@spinach.pa.yokogawa.co.jp> harkcom@spinach.pa.yokogawa.co.jp (Alton Harkcom) writes:
>In article <BzBBw2.5nu@news.cso.uiuc.edu> irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu
>   (Brent Irvine) writes:
>
> =}Yes, but it is certainly negligable when compared to the public school
> =}tuition schemes that have been proposed and implemented in other nations
> =}[like the UK].
>
>   Excusing the problem by comparing it to the problems of other nations
>will do nothing towards solving them.  The problems the 'economically
>poor' face in regards to education are in no way negligable.  On the
>average, these problems seem to contribute the most to the lower quality
>of education in the US (when combined with the educational apathy of
>that sector)...

I did not excuse the problem, just stated that the "free" education offered 
in the US, meant no tuition.  Based on the possible $1000s you would have
to come up with $30 on schools supplies is TRIVIAL.  Even economically
downtrodden people (myself in my youth) can scrape together $30 or so.

>
> =}Transportation is not a problem, at least in St. Louis, they
>
>   Don't you mean: "Transportation is not a problem in St. Louis..."?

Translation successful! :)

>I've been in several school systems in the US (including one in Minnesota
>which was ranked pretty high, and one in South Carolina which was ranked
>pretty low).  I've also been exposed to many more school systems through
>volunteer activities and such.  Every one of these systems had 'bussing
>programs' and such for students.  Unfortunately the systems didn't help
>those who needed it the most (other than provide a minimum of
>transportation to some).  The administrators seemed to understand that
>problems existed, but they did not seem to understand the problems...

Yes, I was being facecious in that part.

>
> =}People quitting before 16, I have never heard of here.
>
>   It is easy when families move around a lot (as most financially
>difficult families do).  Records get lost or never get set up...
>Records are there but the family can't be found.  The family can be
>found, but at the slightest bit of pressure they disappear...

Um, yes, I suppose you could, but it is not common and many parents
would send their kids to school anyway [it is viewed as an easy way
out of poverty].  If a family *really* wanted to keep their kids from 
school, it would be difficult, but not impossible (like in any other
country!).  I see nothing especially different about the USA and any
other nation in this respect.

> =}Suspension is temporary [a few days to a week]
>
>   Suspension also varies from system to system.  Suspensions of up to
>one year are not uncommon in some cases.  A student who is suspended
          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Bzzt.  Suspensions of any kind are fairly UNCOMMON, but are the punishment
for some 'crimes.'  I would like to hear an example of someone that was
suspended for the school year!  The parents would sue the district if a
misguided principal tried to do that!

>beyond the attendence limits can be suspended for the rest of the year
>in many school systems...
Yeah, if there are 3 days left in school, and the suspension is for
3 days, yes.

Reality check is required at this point:  Suspensions from school are
typically one week or less.  It can be longer, but that is at the
discretion of the principal and the 'crime.'

> =} Expulsion
>
>   Criminal activities are sometimes used as grounds for expulsion of
>even those under the age of 16...

True, like selling drugs, or murder or some such. [all but drug dealing
are VERY rare]

On drug dealing:

	In Junior High, I was sent to a rich neighborhood school, the
	wealthy kids did a lot of drugs - mostly because they could
	afford to with their parents generous allowances.

	In High School I went to a solid middle class school, where
	they were paranoid about drugs - even talking to my friends
	(most were the type you thought might take drugs) there were
	no known way to get them [though the few rich kids at school
	managed to get some somehow].

	I am not saying that drugs were not sold or dealt on school
	grounds, just that it was so out of sight I wouldn't hve known
	where to even begin to look for them.

	BTW- I haven't ever taken drugs.


>
>Al
>--
>---
>
>   I will be on vacation from 12/18 - 12/27 and will not be able to
>read email during that time.  My company will be on vacation from
>12/29 - 1/4 and our news and mail servers will be down during that time...
>
>   Sorry for the inconvenience...


-- 
+-------------------------+--------------------------------+-----------------+
| Brent L. Irvine         | For a mere $50 these personal  | I will be gone: |
| irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu | opinions can also be yours!    | 20 Dec - 4 Jan  |
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