From: afdenis@lims02.lerc.nasa.gov (Stephen Dennison)
Subject: Lying to oneself and erroneous assumptions...
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Ancient Souls Inc.
Date: 10 Apr 1992 10:41 EST  

In article <1992Apr9.180643.26083@hemlock.cray.com>, 
robd@cray.com (Robert Derrick) writes...
>Stephen writes:
>: (Meloney Cregor) writes...
>: > I wrote:
> 
>	[that it is difficult in the extreme to really lie to oneself,
>	 maybe close to impossible for a sane person]
> 
>    [Meloney, and Stephen, et. al., disagree in the extreme!]
> 
>Well, kids, 

Well, if *I* qualify as one of your kids, then you must be ...

{lessee six from a hundred and eight plus 2 for the leap years ...}

*DAMN*, you're old ! :-)

>I am far from being a Pollyanna, and yes, I have lied to myself, 

.. as have we all...

>and perhaps you have too.  

.. more than I'd care to admit, even to myself (now *there's* a circular 
reference to this thread. )


>But did I believe it?  I Don't Think So!  
                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
But, you'r not *sure* if you believed it, eh ?  Unless that comment was just 
satire, in which case, never mind...

>Did I try to believe it?  You bet.  Could I have succeeded?  Maybe.  

So, you *admit* the possibility, right ?

>But every doggone time I take an honest look at myself, 

.. and *herein* lies the crux of my assertion.  Not *everybody* takes 
periodic honest looks at themselves. Since, for a time in my life, *I* 
succeeded in believing an artificially created `image' of me, *really* 
believing it, then the *fact* is that it can be done.  I am *not* just 
projecting the behavior on somebody else because I disapproved of them, I'm 
speaking from experience, and *that* experience lets me spot similar 
behavior in others, 'kay ?

>the lies stick out like hammered thumbs.  I just can't hide 'em.
>Of course, I could be lying to myself now, but I doubt it.  And then,
>how would you know?

Or, more to the point, why would I *care* ?  If your lies to yourself don't 
effect me or my circle of friends, I wouldn't be motivated to see or debunk 
them. 

> 
>Really, how do you know that people who lie to themselves really believe
>it?  


See above soulbaring... :-)

>I think the essence of this thread, and the original ill-fated-triangle
>thread is the question of situation ethics, and can they really be applied
>in a healthy manner to real world situations.  I'd say yes, but...
> 

>When was the last time you did something immoral?

Uh... I'm *typing* with one hand. :-)

>Did you lie to yourself to justify it?

Naw, I just shut the office door. :-) :-)


>Did you believe the lie?

Lies are irrelavent. :-)

> 
>You are telling me that other people do this, which in truth, are just
>unsubstantiated assertions that betray your own generel disgust for some of
>your fellow persons.

Uh... isn't there an `IMHO' missing here, or are you trying to drive home 
your point by making an unsubstantiated assumption *yourself* ?

Some of the people I *assumed* were lying to themselves (later verified by 
their own admission) were doing so to their *own* detriment, and their 
resulting low self-esteem *might* have been used to *my* benefit had I been 
so inclined.  These people in *NO WAY* disgusted me, but rather the 
opposite.  I helped them to see their own worth, thus making them less of a 
target to the `moochers and looters' (thanks for that phrase, Colin.) who 
would prey on them.  *Those* "M & L's" *do* have my disgust, but they got 
it the old fashioned way ... they eaRRRRRrrrrrned it ! :-)

> 
>But, how do you know that your assertions have any truth in them at all?
> 

My assertions are based on personal experience but how they apply to others, 
I can not say with 100% certainty.  I can, however, extrapolate from my own 
experience and say with *some* degree of certainty that my behavior is not 
unique.

>Sorry if the question is too hot.  

Not at all...

>You may pass if you wish. 

Nahh... too painful... I just had Jalapeno Peppers for lunch. :-)

>rob derrick

-- Stephen 

(The only two valid e-mail addresses from now on are ...)
afdenis@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov,  afdenis@lims02.lerc.nasa.gov
.. boring .sig follows, press n to skip it.

	Never regret a *choice*.  Rather, save your regrets for the
	choices you *didn't* make.
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