HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cohen@quartz.ciw.edu (Ronald Cohen)
Subject: Re: Conversion Question
Date: 10 Nov 92 03:53:39 GMT
Organization: Geophysical Laboratory, CIW

In article <1992Nov10.032437.14904@umbc3.umbc.edu> shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu (Eliot Shimoff) writes:
>
>I assume that some Reform Jews will soon enter the fray.  In
>case they don't, let me suggest that they are convinced that
>_they_ are the legitimate inheritors of rabbinic Judaism!

I don't know how they can think they are "the legitimate..."
when they don't even accept the concept of halacha.

>
>Which does not imply that your rejection of them is necessarily
>incorrect.  But it should suggest that you can't reject Reform
>Judaism and then object to Orthodox rejection of Consservatism.
>(Does Reform Judaism reject Reconstructionist doctrine?
>"And so ad infinitem ...?")
>

But one case does not prove another.  Both Conservatives and
Orthodox accept the authority of halacha, and differ to the
extent that interpretations can change with time.  This
distinction is actually rather subtle, since some Conservative
thinkers are closer to Orthodox and some Orthodox are closer to
the Conservative outlook.  However, the reform throw out
everything.  They have no standing to participate in halachic
discussions if they do not accept the concept.  That was my only
point.  

My personal view is that reform Judaism is a failure, as is
clearly exemplified by the intermarriage rates among reform jews.
Now the reform are moving back towards some observance.  But they
still regard the halacha and the halachic process as inapplicable
to modern Jews.

This is not meant as flame war, nor should it be insulting to
anyone.  I do not "reject" Reform.  They are the ones that reject
halacha, and thus can have nothing to do with it.  Conservatives
DO NOT reject halacha.  Most of the arguments between O and C
revolve around the few differences of opinion, which can be very
important in individual lives, such as conversion, marriage, and
divorce.  Agreement between O and C should be made on these
issues.
-- 
Ronald Cohen
Geophysical Laboratory, Carnegie Institution of Washington
5251 Broad Branch Rd., N.W.,  Washington, D.C. 20015
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: jgoldber@todah.chem.utoronto.ca (Joel Goldberg)
Subject: Re: Prayer shawls
Organization: University of Toronto Chemistry Department
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 20:37:29 GMT

In article <1992Nov11.180847.20454@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld) writes:
>In article <9211102318.AA05344@host0.COLBY.EDU>, jjsulliv@COLBY.EDU (Nice Young Lady(tm)) writes:
>|> I've even seen one with BLACK stripes 
>"Even"???  About 90% of all tallaisim in most shuls I've been to have black
>stripes.  Are there shuls/minhagim where the prevalent custom is other than 
>black stripes?  Which ones?  (I'm just curious.)
  My understanding is that it is Ashkenazi custom to have black stripes
  as a memorial to the destruction of the temple, while Sepharadim have
  blue stripes (but I don't know why.)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: seth@inst-sun1.tmc.edu (Seth Chazanoff)
Subject: Re: Prayer shawls
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA, USA
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 22:13:48 GMT

Re: ... absolute REQUIRED charistics of Prayer shawls ....

	Must have 4 corners.
	Must have fringes (Tzitzi) on each corner.

	Details on how to tie the Tzitzi can be found in "The Jewish Catalog" which should be available either in your Synagogue, or Religious School Library, or through your local Jewish bookstore.  I think that it is Volume 1.

	Other things like stripes, neckband(Atara), etc are nice, and add to the appearence, but are not necessary.

	Have Fun.

					Seth
From: dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Pierced Ears
Date: 10 Nov 92 20:03:54 GMT
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <1992Nov9.163310.9449@cbnews.cb.att.com> ask@cbnews.cb.att.com (Arthur S. Kamlet) writes:
>Also the logic isn't clear.   True, the pierced ear is the symbol of
>a slave who wished to remain a slave.  But why is it prohibited
>elsewhere?

I heard that some idols at the time were worshipped by priests wearing
pierced earrings.  I guess a pierced ear without the ring was OK for a
slave, though.  

I don't think this argument washes today, since a casual observer
seeing a Jew with a pierced earring is not going to think "idolator"
of the person.

I think the reason today has to do with bodilly mutillation.  For the
same reason that elective surgery is not allowed.  But that still
doesn't account for piercing a slave's ear.

>Finally, there are screw-on and clasp earings which do not require
>piercing.

I don't think anyone disagrees with these.

-- 
  |)  David Charlap          | .signature confiscated by FBI due to
 /|_  dic5340@hertz.njit.edu | an ongoing investigation into the
((|,)                        | source of these .signature virusses
 ~|~
From: faigin@aero.org (Daniel P. Faigin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Conversion Question
Date: 10 Nov 92 13:11:51
Organization: The Aerospace Corporation, El Segundo, CA
	<FAIGIN.92Nov10104736@soldan.aero.org>
	<1992Nov10.202012.22035@umbc3.umbc.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: soldan.aero.org
In-reply-to: shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu's message of Tue, 10 Nov 1992 20:20:12 GMT

On Tue, 10 Nov 1992 20:20:12 GMT, shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu (Eliot Shimoff) said:

> Other differences are more serious.  If you don't keep chalav yisrael
> ("kosher milk"), I can still eat in your house.  But if you don't
> keep kosher at all, I can't eat at your house (unless you make
> special preparations for me).  Do your prayer rituals include
> practices that violate my interpretation of halakha?; if so,
> I cannot worship with you.

But if I'm aware of the rituals (as any serious Reform Jew would be), then I
can easily make simple accomidations for you. If I don't keep kosher and
invite you over, I give you fresh fruit, OU products, unopened packages of
plastic utensils. We want to prey together and have different rituals: I can
follow the more observant one for that day, because of the shared meaning of
its importance to you. In any case, the fundamentals are the same: the Shema,
the V'Hafta, the Avot, the Adoration, the Torah service, the Kaddish (I'll
stand, you can sit), the Mi Chamocha, the Barchu. All of these are part of the
Reform service too. So we can worship together if we work together.

> And the most serious difference of all are difficulties in
> defining personal status.  If we differ on who is a Jew, or on
> who is married, our groups necessarily diverge.

Not necessarily, but only when a person transfers from one movement to a more
stringent movement. After a number of generations of practicing Judaism, a
proper conversion in the past becomes less significant. As for who is married,
there's always Dina D'Malchuta Dina: Are they married in the eyes of the
state. If so, I'll consider them married. After all, the particular marriage
ceremony is not written in stone. If two Jews have a civil marriage, are they
considered to be married by Judaism? I think so.

> Must there be only one way?  Perhaps not.  But if two ways 
> include mutually exclusive practices, was are in deep trouble.

Unless we set aside our differences, focus on our commonalities, and show
understanding and respect for the fact that we do differ.

P.S.: You also write:

> Welcome back Daniel.  I look forward to your contributions to
> this discussion!

Actually, I've been here all the time. There's just be nothing worth saying.
You really should join the m.l-j list, where I'm really more active (and we do
have Orthodox participants).

Daniel
--
[W]:The Aerospace Corp. M1/055 * POB 92957 * LA, CA 90009-2957 * 310/336-8228
[Email]:faigin@aerospace.aero.org              [Vmail]:310/336-5454 Box#13149
		    "And as they say, the rest is compost"
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: gertler@cyclone.sbi.com (Don Gertler)
Subject: Re: Noachide marriage procedure.
Originator: scj@israel.nysernet.org
Reply-To: <gertler@cyclone.sbi.com (Don Gertler)>
Organization: Nysernet
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 16:32:16 GMT

schwartz@nynexst.com (Steven Schwartz) writes:

> I asked a friend this question a while ago.  His answer was
> basically that they are married when they moved in together

I believe the RaMBaM states in Hilchot 'ishut that they are married
if they want to be married and they move in together.  Merely moving
in together may not constitute marriage.

-Don Gertler
From: MASH@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL (Michael Shimshoni)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Kosher Honey - Still no Answer
Date: 12 Nov 92 12:52:17 GMT
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs

In: <1992Nov10.150833.21812@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca>
jgoldber@todah.chem.utoronto.ca (Joel Goldberg) insists:
 Subject: Re: Kosher Honey - Still no answer

>In article <1992Nov10.050529.13117@eskimo.celestial.com> chips@eskimo.celestia
>>And PLEASE!, the bible only talks about DATE honey !
>  While this is true of much of biblical honey, isn't the honey in
>  Samson's (Shimshon's) dead lion bee honey?

It surely is, and worse still, it is in a treif container!

 Michael Shimshoni
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: Movie "Exodus"
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 13:19:18 GMT

Something does seem wrong on swearing on both the Tanach and the gun.
Swearing on the Tanach to use the gun properly would be another thing.

I don't imagine that there would have been any difficulty obtaining a
copy of the Tanach in 1948.
-- 
/|/-\/-\          Adif tzav pinui metzav shmoneh.
 |__/__/_/    
 |warren@     
/ nysernet.org 			    Jerusalem
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger)
Subject: Re: Conversion Question
Organization: Summit NJ
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 22:34:09 GMT

Yaakov Kayman writes:
>Matthew P Wiener says:

>>>Though it is, of course, hypothetically possible that three members of
>>>the Conservative clergy can be found who [meet O kashrus for witnessing.]
>>
>>It's not so hypothetical.
>
>Again, I speak of rabbinical JUDGES, not witnesses. I still stand by my
>previous words that one who himself does not unconditionally accept the
>ultimate authority of G-d as given us in His Torah (both Written and
>Oral, the two parts of one whole) cannot be a dayyan.

This all goes back to a point I raised a few days ago.  The
Orthodox Jewish community does not define our religion.  In
refusing to recognize, as Jewish, a number of people who
underwent an halachically correct conversion, they are forcing
the issue.

It still amazes me how, after the lesson of Tisha B'Av and the civil
war that led to the Roman conquest, how after the Holocaust, when
the Nazis didn't care who was Orthodox, Conservative, Reform,
non-observant, or even halachically not Jewish, and how even as we
see the emergence of anti-Semitism in Europe today,  we see
Jews on this net, under the guise of being the only ones who
"know" how to observe our religion, fragmenting what's left
of our people.

Maybe, just maybe, it's time to acknowledge the legitimacy and
reality of the Conservative and Reform movements, so we can
all work together.
-- 
Stan Krieger                 All opinions, advice, or suggestions, even
UNIX System Laboratories     if related to my employment, are my own.
Summit, NJ
smk@usl.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu (Eliot Shimoff)
Subject: Re: sexism
Organization: Univ. of MD, Baltimore County
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 14:38:23 GMT

In article <2792@israel.nysernet.org> warren@nysernet.org writes:
>mw = weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
>
>mw: Exactly.  The shirt under the t.k. is to keep it clean.
>
>But is the shirt under the tk required by halacha or is it just
>convenient to do so since undershirts are cheaper than tk's so it's
>easier to have lots of undershirts than lots of tk's?  If the former,
>could you provide a reference?

The reason for an undershirt under the tk is because real
men wear tk's with racing stripes.  In hot weather, the
racing stripes leave a mark across one's midsection, and
you look like you've been run over by a bicycle.




-- 
Eliot Shimoff                  |    n   n   n
   shimoff@umbc3.umbc.edu      |   X + Y = Z .  Easy to prove no solutions
Ashamnu, bagadnu, gazalnu ...  |   for n greater than 2.  Darn.  Can't fit
Better luck next year!         |   it into this little .sig file.  Oh well.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: hem@maverick.col400.att.com (Hillel E. Markowitz)
Subject: Re: Movie "Exodus"
Originator: news@cbnewsf.cb.att.com
Organization: AT&T Federal Systems
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 15:44:31 GMT

In article <2807@israel.nysernet.org> warren@nysernet.org writes:
>Something does seem wrong on swearing on both the Tanach and the gun.
>Swearing on the Tanach to use the gun properly would be another thing.
>
>I don't imagine that there would have been any difficulty obtaining a
>copy of the Tanach in 1948.
>-- 
>/|/-\/-\          Adif tzav pinui metzav shmoneh.
> |__/__/_/    
> |warren@     
>/ nysernet.org 			    Jerusalem


THe impression I got from the book (it was a while ago) and the
way it was explained to me was that Warren is correct as to what
was being done.  It wasn't actually "swearing" but
acknowledgement thast the Tanach would teach how to use the rifle
while the rifle would be used to defend the Tanach.

____________________________________________________
| Hillel Markowitz    |     Im ain ani li mi li    |
| H_Markowitz@att.com | Veahavta Leraiecha Kamocha |
|_____________________|____________________________|
-- 
____________________________________________________
| Hillel Markowitz    |     Im ain ani li mi li    |
| H_Markowitz@att.com | Veahavta Leraiecha Kamocha |
|_____________________|____________________________|
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: nadel@attatash.aero.org (Miriam Nadel)
Subject: Re: Conversion Question
Organization: /usr/lib/news/organization
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 16:02:34 GMT

In article <92314.212922CARIAN@auvm.american.edu> <CARIAN@auvm.american.edu> writes:
>A better example would be the Conservative attitude toward Reform conversions.
>Conservative rabbis will accept Reform conversions if they are performed
>according to the proper ritual -- milah, t'vilah, bet din of three. If they
>are not performed halachically they will not be accepted-- but the reason
>is not the identity of the supervising rabbi, it is the problematic
>way in which the conversion was performed.
>
But there does tend to be the assumption among Conservative rabbis that a
Reform conversion was not done halachically.  In the absence of specific
information to the contrary, it would seem perfectly consistent to reject
the conversion on the grounds that a Reform conversion is unlikely to meet
Conservative halachic criteria.

>In contradistinction, the Orthodox non-acceptance of Conservative
>conversions is based not on the form of the conversion but the identity
>of the supervising rabbis, since the procedure and ritual in Conservative
>and Orthodox conversions is identical.


It's not as simple as that.  I've heard several Orthodox rabbis say that
some Conservative conversions may be legitimate.  The issue involves the
converts acceptance of halacha and whether the bet din has adequately
addressed this.  Which is a procedural issue from the Orthodox viewpoint.
The identity of the supervising rabbis is primarily of concern as to whether
or not it may be presumed that the convert was adequately questioned as to
intent to follow halacha. 

In fact, this affects intra-Orthodox relations, as well.  There are some
Orthodox rabbis whose conversions are not widely accepted because they
are believed to be lax on this point.


Miriam Nadel
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: emc@doe.carleton.ca (Eli Chiprout)
Subject: Re: Einstein and Judaism
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 17:09:13 GMT

In <1dm37rINNe9j@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:

>   Einstein played an important role in my decision to know about
>my Jewish heritage.  Although my mother was from a semi-observant
>background, my father was a typical German reform Jew.  He had no
>patience for religious ritual, and so I grew up without receiving
>even an elementary Jewish education.
...
>This one short essay changed my life.  If a man like Einstein can
>write what he did about Jewish values, I knew in a flash that the
>time had come for me to find out just what I come from.  Although
>he seemed to have a distorted and hostile view of what he thought
>was the Jewish G-d, he nevertheless saw what Jewish ideals really
>are.  I decided to learn about what Einstein seemed to see in the
>values of Judaism.  And though I my feelings about G-d are oceans
>apart from those of Einstein, my life was changed forever because
>of this secular Jew with the really bad haircut!

Fair enough.  But let me ask you, what is it that Einstein lacked,
that you have.  I mean this question in a very deep sense, NOT in
the flippant in the sense of "who are you as compared to Einstein?".
Every human being has strengths and inadequacies, so we cannot
expect Einstein to be exempt, and as another poster mentioned his
area of expertise was physics not Judaism.

What I am asking is: you have found a deep meaning in Judaism but
Einstein did not.  Was he not looking hard enough?  Was it because
he was raised as a liberal Jew (that can't be it because you were
too)?  Did he see the truth in Judaism but reject it because of
a bias towards something?  Or worse, did God create him without
the ability to see Judaism for what it is?  If that is that case
why.

Understand my question.  I am not asking irreverantly because I
respect your profound sense of God and Judaism.  What I am asking
is, why did Einstein not find this in Judaism?  He died without
ever having a sense of Judaism that you have. Will he get another
chance?  Was the first one inadequate?  Why does God allow human
beings (Jews) to wander through life without ever discovering
what God would like them to know in the religious realm?

>   "One can be a racist.  Or one can be a human being.  But one
>may not be both."
>                                 - Rabbi Abraham Joshua heschel

--
Eli Chiprout                  " 'Al ta'am vereach, ein lehitvakeah!"
Dept. of Electronics, 
Carleton University, Canada
emc@doe.carleton.ca
From: nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss)
Subject: Re: WARNING: Sam Saal coersion
Organization: NCR E&M Columbia SC.
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 92 15:05:56 GMT

In article <emc.721061425@reg> emc@doe.carleton.ca (Eli Chiprout) writes:
>It is unfortunate that I have to take this into the public domain but I 
>have experienced Sam's consistent barrage of private mail trying again
>and again to convince me to take my postings elsewhere.  At first he was
>reluctant to say what he was doing and it seemed like a friendly
>exchange.  But soon, when I disagreed with him, the charges became more
>virulent and forceful.  I asked why we should be having this private
>debate when I posted publicly to which he should reply publicly.  He 
>replied that his main interest was in a seek-and-weed-out mission of
>Christian missionaries and anti-semites.  (Of course anyone that does
>not carry the same viewpoint as Sam can be classified as such.  See
>below).
>
>In all of this Sam insisted that he had been reading SCJ for a very
>long time and as such his views were the right ones as to what should
>be posted in this newsgroup.  EVEN AFTER I OBTAINED CLARIFICATION 
>AND AGREEMENT FROM THE USENET ADMINISTRATORS.
>
>If anyone else has experience this type of private exchange from Sam
>please let us know.  YOU HAVE A RIGHT TO HAVE YOUR VIEWS HEARD!  This
>is NOT A MODERATED NEWSGROUP and private coersion will not do!!
>

Sam, you should quit doing this to people. You are acting like that
you are the owner of SCJ and everything posted on it should be 
censored by you.

Nabil


Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: dattier@ddsw1.mcs.com (DWT)
Subject: Re: Kosher Honey - Still no answer
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 23:56:57 GMT
Organization: Contributor Account at ddsw1, Chicago, Illinois  60657

jgoldber@todah.chem.utoronto.ca (Joel Goldberg) wrote in
<1992Nov10.150833.21812@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca>:

| In article <1992Nov10.050529.13117@eskimo.celestial.com>
| chips@eskimo.celestial.com (:crp:) writes:
| >And PLEASE!, the bible only talks about DATE honey !
|   While this is true of much of biblical honey, isn't the honey in
|   Samson's (Shimshon's) dead lion bee honey?

Yes, and so was the honey Jonathan licked, and one of the additional psalms
in Shacharit on Shabbat and Yom Tov mentions both date honey and bee honey,
so bee honey is mentioned in Tanakh, but I'm quite sure that the Torah talks
only of date honey.

David W. Tamkin   Box 59297   Northtown Station, Illinois  60659-0297
dattier@ddsw1.mcs.com    CompuServe: 73720,1570    MCI Mail: 426-1818
From: backon@vms.huji.ac.il
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: how to contact Wiesenthal(?) Nazi-tracking org?
Date: 12 Nov 92 19:34:59 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.jewish
Distribution: soc,world
Organization: The Hebrew University of Jerusalem

In article <friedan.721429305@raunvis>, friedan@raunvis.hi.is (Daniel Friedan) writes:
> Could someone tell me how to contact the Nazi-tracking organization founded
> by the Wiesenthals?  (Please forgive my ailing memory if I've got the name
> wrong. In any case, I have in mind the pre-eminent Nazi-tracking group.)
> I think that they were based originally in Austria and now in Israel.
> 
> An email address, a telephone number or a postal mail address would be
> most welcome.

The Simon Wiesenthal Centre has an email address on MCIMail. I forwarded your
message to them and hope they will take action.


Josh
backon@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL




> 
> I am interested in learning about a case that was presented by this
> organization to the Prime Minister of Iceland during his recent visit to
> Israel.
> 
> My incomplete understanding is that the case is against a man named Edvald
> Hinriksson who was a police official in Tallinn, Estonia during World War II.
> After the war, he stopped in Iceland on the way to South America and
> stayed on, becoming a respected citizen. He is accused of having
> collaborated with the Nazis in their various murderous activities during
> the Nazi occupation of Estonia.
> 
> There is an article today in one of the Reykjavik daily newspapers,
> Morgunbladid, quoting a Danish historian, Bent Bludnikow, who wrote about
> the case in last Sunday's edition of the Danish newspaper Politiken.
> Bludnikow is quoted as contrasting the welcome and protection given Edvalds
> Henriksson after the war, and Iceland's present lack of interest in
> pursuing the case, with the refusal of Iceland and the other Nordic
> countries to accept Jewish refugees before the war.
> 
> What is the current reputation of the Wiesenthal(?) organization for
> reliability? My memory is that, at least when the founders were alive, the
> organization was considered to be absolutely reliable.
> 
>     thanks for any information,
> 
>     Daniel Friedan       <friedan@raunvis.hi.is>
From: CARIAN@auvm.american.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: SCJ Gathering in Baltimore/Washington Area
Date: 12 Nov 92 14:05:39 GMT
Organization: The American University - University Computing Center

One addendum and one erratum to my previous post:

Addendum:
You don't have to actually be from Baltington/Washimore to attend.
If you want to come from elsewhere, great, but I'm not picking anyone
up at the airport (unless Warren comes from Jerusalem).

Erratum:
Hunan Gourmet is in Potomac, not Rockville.

No aspersions on the authenticity of Rockville are meant, but Hunan
Gourmet is in Potomac, no doubt about it. I live in the District so
all those Montgomery County towns seem more or less the same to me.

Rabbi Charles Arian
CARIAN@american.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish