HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ray@philmtl.philips.ca (Ray Dunn)
Subject: The "people trade" of the clearances
Organization: On the Brew.
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 04:20:50 GMT

My wife and I have been attending a two day conference at McGill University
here in Montreal on "The Scots in Canada, a celebration of the Auld
Alliance".  This is part of the "World Scottish Festival", a fiasco of
immense proportions and miniscule visibility about which I might post later
- let's hope at least that the Runrig concert this Saturday lives up to
expectations.

Anyway, the subject of the Highland clearances came up (of course), and a
topic was raised about which very little was known by the attending
historians (including Marjory Harper of U. of Aberdeen, and Robert Morris
of U. of Edinburgh - neither of whom are Scottish BTW).

What is known of the commercial aspects of the clearances?  Not the basic
"replace the people by sheep" economics, but that associated with the trade
in people themselves - the shipping companies, the whole infostructure
created to handle the traffic including the agents of Canadian provinces
who persuaded people to emmigrate to specific areas, the outfitting of the
emmigrants, the transportation within Canada etc.

On both sides of the Atlantic, large profits must have been made, but
little seems to have been written about it.

Certainly Molson (of brewery fame) was involved transporting immigrants up
the St. Lawrence from Quebec City by steamship, and this formed an important
part of his commercial empire.  Beyond that, does anyone know of any
references?

-- 
Ray Dunn at home    |    ray@philmtl.philips.ca    |    (514) 630 3749
From: ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: is Galicia (spain) celtic?
Date: 19 Aug 92 21:33:28 GMT
Article-I.D.: usenet.Bt92Js.Mx4
Organization: Indiana University

In article <1992Aug17.141635.11710@cicb.fr> moisan@cicb.fr (Herve Moisan -  stagiaire CICB) writes:
>
>At "festival Inter-celtique" (inter-celtic festival) in lorient, there
>were galician people and asturian people .
>
>are they celtic ?
>and why is it a celtic country ?
>
>there is no celtic language, galician is a roman language.
>but i think, with their culture and tradition they are celtic people.
>
>what are you thinking about that ?

I don't know... I do know that Galician music is rather
popular among Scots and Irish musicians. Ceolbeg have a 
Galician Set on one their CD Seeds to the Wind. It has 
a distinct falvor to it. Spanish-like.









-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Iskandar Taib                          | The only thing worse than Peach ala
Internet: NTAIB@SILVER.UCS.INDIANA.EDU |    Frog is Frog ala Peach
Bitnet:   NTAIB@IUBACS                 !
Xref: sparky soc.culture.celtic:5446 rec.org.sca:11674
From: goldie@herald.usask.ca (Hugh Goldie)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,rec.org.sca
Subject: Instructions for ancient kilt - feileadh mor
Date: 12 Aug 92 22:31:47 GMT
Organization: University of Saskatchewan
Originator: goldie@herald.usask.ca

Please send instructions for folding and wearing the Great Scottish Kilt or 
feileadh-mor.  As I understand it, this was a large piece of tartan or 
other cloth, folded in pleats and worn about the body, with only a belt used
for fastening.  One could unfasten the feileadh-mor and use it for a blanket
when sleeping in the open ("..and I s'all rowe thee in my plaide, my bonney
dearie".)

I do not need instructions for wearing the small, modern, Scottish kilt, 
which I obtained from my father.  There are many books available on that 
subject.

I would like to know how much tartan cloth is recommended and where to 
obtain it at reasonable cost.  Most Scottish outfitters charge a lot of money.

Finally, I would also like to obtain instructions for ancient women's attire 
--for my SO (;-).  I believe they also used one piece of tartan cloth, 
arranging it over the head and shoulders. 

Please send instructions via e-mail or a reference to a book, including the
publisher's address.

                      Your's aye.  --Hugh Goldie (Scottish Country Dancer).
From: morna@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Morna J Findlay)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Holidays in the US
Date: 13 Aug 92 12:14:37 GMT
Reply-To: morna@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Morna J Findlay)
Organization: Laboratory for the Foundations of Computer Science, Edinburgh U


Thanks to all who mailed me to say that Route 66 no longer exists.

I am very upset about this. The next thing you'll be telling me is
that I can't go and visit Tom Sawyers house!


M

--
Morna Findlay 					JANET:morna@uk.ac.ed.dcs 
	Thanksgiving For a National Victory (Robert Burns)
Ye hypocrites! are these your pranks? To murder men and give God thanks?
Desist, for shame! Proceed no further: God won't accept your thanks for murther.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,)
Subject: Re: Bad Irish Karma (was Re: US Census statistics)
Organization: Clarkson University
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 18:14:32 GMT

From article <1992Aug13.091545.8962@agora.uucp>, by trifid@agora.uucp (Roadster Racewerks):
> 
> 
> Ah yes... I'm just sure that your average British tourist in the US is going
> to toddle off to East Los Angeles to learn about/show solidarity with *our*
> poor and restive populations, or perhaps a nice holiday in Harlem. :-)
> 
> 
I do remember, back in 1981, when I came to visit New York City they
used to have bus and walking tours of Harlem to show you the
"conditions".

														GW
From: ulick@angelico.helios.nd.edu (Ulick Stafford)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Anglo-Saxcons (Re: Cows and Sheep
Keywords: Or is that what you meant?
Date: 20 Aug 92 20:53:50 GMT
Organization: University of Notre Dame, Notre Dame

In article <BtAMHp.IMp@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib) writes:
>In article <l8l6urINNp9v@news.bbn.com> dfoley@testament.bbn.com. (Dennis Foley ) writes:
>
>>Which proves the point, of course, because the Normans spoke French
>>and the Anglo-Saxons spoke a Germanic language.
>
>The point, being, of course, that the Normans ate the things while the
>Saxons raised them  9-)

Can anyone tell me why people from that country predominantly
populated by Germanics known as Anglo-Saxons call themselves
Angles, while Celts call them Saxons?

(OK.  I'm bored :-) )


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
+ 'There was a  master come unto the earth, + Ulick Stafford, PP-ASEL       +
+    born in the holy land of Indiana,      + Dept of Chemical Engineering, +
+ in the mystical hills east of Fort Wayne'.+ Notre Dame, IN 46556          +
+      B'fhearr liom bheith ag eitilt.      +    ulick@bach.helios.nd.edu   +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,rec.org.sca
From: kinsey@worf.nas.nasa.gov (Cassandra L. Baldassano)
Subject: Re: Instructions for ancient kilt - feileadh mor
Organization: Numerical Aerodynamic Simulation Facility NASA
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 92 14:56:08 GMT
Reply-To: kinsey@worf.nas.nasa.gov (Cassandra L. Baldassano)

In article <1992Aug14.095210.28506@st-andrews.ac.uk>, rm4@st-andrews.ac.uk (Rosa Michaelson) writes:
|> Re my previous on the great plaid - try the following texts for more
|> authentic and acedemic contentions on the subject:
|> 
|>     Tartens, Christine Heskith, 1961, Octopus Books, 99p, London
|>     isbn 7064 0033 x
|> 
|>     A History of Scottish dress(??), J Telford-Dunbar. No further details
|>     in my head.
|> 
|> Also the Scottish National Portrait Gallery has many greta pictures of the
|> above named great plaid. And of course for other sources there are the two
|> superbly mythic films Highlander I and Highlander II. Why did the producers
|> use some of the best piping talents for the battle scenes in the first 10
|> minutes of HI and then overdub with crap music????

I believe you are mistaken, Highlander II doesn't exist (its the only way
I can keep my sanity about it)  :)

Euriol of Lothian
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: kjcarey@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Kevin J. Carey)
Subject: How long is RTE news these days?
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Distribution: soc.culture.celtic
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 16:44:59 GMT

The subject says it all. We all know that nothing important happens in
the summer, except for coups, invasions, famines, wars and elections.
Thus Ireland's virtual monopoly news provider always only gave us 15
mins of primetime news during the summer. Have they learned from their
mistakes yet? 
--- Kevin
From: mcintosh@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (aubrey mcintosh)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Books or Poems
Date: 19 Aug 92 00:45:30 GMT
Reply-To: mcintosh@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (aubrey mcintosh)

In article <1992Aug13.185651.20241@sei.cmu.edu>, caj@sei.cmu.edu (Carol
Jarosz) writes:
|>
|>I am very interested in Scottish History particularly the Scottish Rebellions
|>of 1715 and 1745.   Can anybody recommend some "history" books or
poems for my
|>reading enjoyment?  In English, please


Campbell, John Lorne, 1906 -
"Highland songs of the Forty-five"
New York 1971 (1933)
PB 1633 c34 1971

Gaelic poems/songs of the Highlanders with facing english translations.
An appendix with several tunes, and some cross indexing of poem/tune.


         
Aubrey McIntosh  /  Chemistry  /  University of Texas  /  Austin, TX 78712
...another Gaelic learner...
From: rm4@st-andrews.ac.uk (Rosa Michaelson)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Books or Poems
Date: 14 Aug 92 09:55:32 GMT
Organization: none at all, have you seen my desk?

Jocobite Lays - is the title of a great collection of poems/songs
made up a few years after the events. It includes a useful map of all
those who abstained from supporting 'the rightfull causes' thereby opening
my eyes to the amazing lack of support from many clans for the battles.
Obviously the main chance was a big motivator in those days.......
From: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Books or Poems
Date: 14 Aug 92 17:18:18 GMT
Reply-To: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Organization: COMANDOS Project, Glesga Yoonie

caj@sei.cmu.edu (Carol Jarosz) wrote:
> I am very interested in Scottish History particularly the Scottish Rebellions
> of 1715 and 1745.   Can anybody recommend some "history" books or poems for
> my reading enjoyment?  In English, please.

John Prebble: "Culloden" (Penguin).

These two episodes must be the most boring in Scottish history and have
probably provoked the worst writing of any historical event since the
birth of Christ.  Try T.C. Smout's "A History of the Scottish People"
and "A Century of the Scottish People", or Alexander Mackenzie's "History
of the Highland Clearances", for something better.

-- 
--  Jack Campin    room G092, Computing Science Department, Glasgow University,
17 Lilybank Gardens, Glasgow G12 8RZ, Scotland   TEL: 041 339 8855 x6854 (work)
INTERNET: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk or via nsfnet-relay.ac.uk    FAX: 041 330 4913
BANG!net: via mcsun and uknet     BITNET: via UKACRL    UUCP: jack@glasgow.uucp
From: JMoylan@cup.portal.com (John Thomas Moylan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: languages
Date: 15 Aug 92 04:46:47 GMT
  <1992Aug13.114009.17882@rdg.dec.com>
Organization: The Portal System (TM)

several lists just came across the celtic-l mailing list, have to post thos..
From: w.p.coyne@newcastle.ac.uk
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Olympics: Was there an Irish team pre-1922
Date: 3 Aug 92 10:00:40 GMT
Reply-To: w.p.coyne@newcastle.ac.uk
Organization: Chemical & Process Engineering Dept, University of Newcastle, UK.

In a discussion in soc.culture.british on why is there only one 
Olympic team from UK, while there are 4 international football 
teams,  the question of how long has Ireland had a separate 
Olympic Association was raised.

   The Irish FA was set up in 1880.  The first Olympics were in 
1896.  Did a separate Irish Olympic Committee exist by then?
I read that Britain competed in the 1896 games, but there was
no mention of Ireland
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: trifid@agora.uucp (Roadster Racewerks)
Subject: Re: Bad Irish Karma (was Re: US Census statistics)
Keywords: poverty, tourism, slums
Organization: Open Communications Forum
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 09:15:45 GMT



Ah yes... I'm just sure that your average British tourist in the US is going
to toddle off to East Los Angeles to learn about/show solidarity with *our*
poor and restive populations, or perhaps a nice holiday in Harlem. :-)

Sorry, that isn't the function of tourism. When we visited the British Isles,
we avoided all the major cities except to pass through them on a train. We
didn't come to see poverty and suffering, we see that at home (and I seriously
doubt yours looks much different than ours.) As for the "rose-colored glasses"
if we really didn't know that the various countries we saw had any problems,
then how did we know what parts to avoid?

Very few hard-working folk are going to pay $3,000/4,000 to go see somebody
else's grief. (And if I were a poverty-stricken Jamaican immigrant, I'd be
none too thrilled at a bunch of do-gooder tourists listing *me* as one of
the local "sights".)

Perhaps Mr. Huntsbach is one of those mislead souls who thinks all American
tourists are wealthy diletantes? Au contraire. My boyfriend and I live below
our country's poverty level, and this was the trip of a lifetime for us. No
way were we going to leave our slum to go look at somebody else's slum. :-)

Suze 

trifid@agora.rain.com
From: JMoylan@cup.portal.com (John Thomas Moylan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: US Census statistics
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 92 21:42:13 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
  <1992Jul30.083943.27070@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> <19936@optima.cs.arizona.edu>
  <1992Aug3.111656.4870@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> <25274@dog.ee.lbl.gov>

I don't know about irish immigration to north america being recent.  It is tr
that there was significant jump mid 19th century with the advent of the
potato famine, there were enough irish in the colonie by the revolutionary
war for my great-...-great grandfather to raise several purely irish
regiments from Pennsylvania(Brig. Gen. Stephen E. Moylan, also served as
muster-master general for a period of time prior to the point at which this
office was invested with the necessary power to accomplish it's task(hmmm...
sounds federalist...)).  Anyways the point being, that there seemed to have
been as much irish immigration at the end of the 17th century as english(
however my family had been mostly living abroad since the late 16th century
anyways, only briefly returning to Ireland before leaving again for the
colonies -- previously lived mainly in France -- Vie La France!).

Americans:  I am an american who is mostly Irish, slightly german.

Newall:  one of my father's friends surname is Newall, and is Irish(actual
  last name IS actually O/ Tnuathail).  (usually the name in the US gets
  mapped to an english corruption of new hall or some such nonsense...
  typical geneologists make up stuff as they go along and are being paid to d
  so...)
Xref: sparky soc.culture.celtic:5495 rec.org.sca:11755
From: morna@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Morna J Findlay)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,rec.org.sca
Subject: Higlander ( Was Re: Instructions for ancient kilt - feileadh mor)
Date: 17 Aug 92 11:57:11 GMT
Reply-To: morna@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Morna J Findlay)
Organization: Laboratory for the Foundations of Computer Science, Edinburgh U

>In article <1992Aug14.095210.28506@st-andrews.ac.uk>, rm4@st-andrews.ac.uk (Rosa Michaelson) writes:
>|> 
>|> Also the Scottish National Portrait Gallery has many greta pictures of the
>|> above named great plaid. And of course for other sources there are the two
>|> superbly mythic films Highlander I and Highlander II. Why did the producers
>|> use some of the best piping talents for the battle scenes in the first 10
>|> minutes of HI and then overdub with crap music????
>

You jest!

Dinnae take anything authentic in Highlander to be authentic!

It's a lomg time since I saw it ( and I fair enjoyed it, apart from the
gory bits) but I distinctly remember the dreadful research they nust
have done on the tartans we saw. Didn't Connor's clam fight "The
Frasers" at one time? Well, whetever they called themselves, they were
wearing the well-known bogus set of Fraser as introduced by the
Sobieski-Stuarts. I think the MacLeods was a bogus one as well, but I
can't remember .


M

--
Morna Findlay 					JANET:morna@uk.ac.ed.dcs 
	Thanksgiving For a National Victory (Robert Burns)
Ye hypocrites! are these your pranks? To murder men and give God thanks?
Desist, for shame! Proceed no further: God won't accept your thanks for murther.
From: wboatclb@ccvax.ucd.ie
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Manifesto: New Hope for Unitied Britonnic Nations (DSY)
Date: 21 Aug 92 14:05:34 GMT
Organization: University College Dublin

In article <RN.4129@mts.ucs.UAlberta.CA>, userLIBE@mts.ucs.UAlberta.CA
 (unknown) writes:

       [proposal to ressurect the british empire deleted.]
   
>    That is all at this time.  IT is time to consider this seriously
>    and look at its merit.  So UK  reject Maastricht, Canada  reject
>    the Rebluican US ideology of FTA and NAFTA, let us as Britonnic 
>    countries unite at this time.  Thank you for your time
>  
>    Dave Shariff Yadallee 

ha ha ha ha...

It's probably only a typo!    He should have spelt it rec.humor :-) 

Rob.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: pjn@phsun.uucp (Philip J. Naylor.)
Subject: Re: Scanable Celtic Artwork
Organization: King's College London.
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 13:33:07 GMT
X-Posted-From: phsun.ph.kcl.ac.uk
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <920814061647_70571.1262_DHB34-1@CompuServe.COM> 70571.1262@CompuServe.COM (Rick Grunwald) writes:
>A friend of mine makes some very nice ceramic jewelry , many in the 
>Celtic Knot motif. He is looking for a good source of scanable artwork
>to broaden his design base.
>
>Anyone know of some good sources for him? It would be appreciated.
>Thanks in advance.
>
>Rick
>
	Might I suggest that he learns to create his own designs ?
Two books which I can recommend are "Celtic Design - A Beginner's Manual", 
and "Knotwork - The Secret of the Scribes", both by Aidan Mehan, published
by Thames Hudson.  I can't remember ISBN numbers off hand, but can get them
if anyone wishes.
	It's really not as difficult as it looks.

-- 
| Philip J. Naylor      |  " 'The time has come', the Walrus said, 'to talk   |
| King's College London |   of many things: of shoes -and ships -and sealing  |
|                       |   wax, of cabbages -and King's.' "                  |
| pjn@phsun.ph.kcl.ac.uk|                     -Lewis Carroll (well, almost).  |
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: shrdlu@willow.sdd.trw.com (Lynda L. True)
Subject: Re: Holidays in the US
Organization: TRW Inc., Redondo Beach, CA
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 92 15:13:44 GMT

In article <41417@skye.dcs.ed.ac.uk> morna@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Morna J
  Findlay) writes: 

>Thanks to all who mailed me to say that Route 66 no longer exists.

>I am very upset about this. The next thing you'll be telling me is
>that I can't go and visit Tom Sawyers house!

Shame on everyone who wrote: Of course Route 66 exists. Most of it is
still drivable, and if you write to Sacramento they even have a
brochure to tell you how to drive it. Nostalgia is a favorite pastime
here, and lots of people want to drive it. If you don't get
satisfaction from Sacramento, let me know and I'll see if I can get a
copy of the brochure for you.

Almost all of 66 is in decent condition (although I don't know how
well it survived the last quake), and quite a bit of it still goes
through communities that are mentioned in that old dog of a song about
route 66 (you know, like El Paso, and San Bernardino).

They lied. Come on over and drive it.

Lynda
-- 
Of course I don't SPEAK for TRW; they pay me to THINK for them.

shrdlu@rowan.sdd.trw.com (Lynda L. True)
Work Phone - (310) 812-1660 or (310) 812-1570
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,rec.music.folk
From: ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib)
Subject: Want info on Welsh harper (or group)
Keywords: Or is that what you meant?
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 17:53:08 GMT

I was listening to Fiona's show a few weeks ago and she did 
a rerun of a show on Welsh and Breton music. In there some-
where was a Welsh harper or group called Mertyn (or Merten,
or Myrtyn or Myrten.. 9-) ).. 

They played a really beatiful rendition of Castle Kelly. Any-
one know where to get the CD?






-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Iskandar Taib                          | The only thing worse than Peach ala
Internet: NTAIB@SILVER.UCS.INDIANA.EDU |    Frog is Frog ala Peach
Bitnet:   NTAIB@IUBACS                 !
Xref: sparky soc.culture.celtic:5499 rec.org.sca:11764
From: rm4@st-andrews.ac.uk (Rosa Michaelson)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Higlander ( Was Re: Instructions for ancient kilt - feileadh mor)
Date: 17 Aug 92 14:42:36 GMT
Organization: well perhaps it is St. Andrews University

Man 'its no real' - colloquialism meaning 'you don't say'. See falbber, gasted.

The only reasons I went to Highlander 1 were Duncan McGillvary and his piping
friend from Boston , Greg. Having met Greg in Edinburgh and on a small
MacBraynes ferry off Barra I heard how they were both paid for days and days
of tramping through mud and heather leading the battle scenes for H1 and playing
more than appropirate tunes for the sequences. It was also reported that
one of the extras, from a jacobite battle re-enactment group lost the use of
an arm due to the authenticity of a claymore. I believed the first stuff
about piping and the north but not the casualty. And they are in the first
few minutes of the battle, and they are not heard playing the tunes he
reported to me....This info was also validated at a leaving party in Edinburgh
which featued unlabled, but VERY strong whiskey from the whiskey society in
leith....
Actually I went to 1 coz it looked outrageously funny...and it featured  the
glamourous milkman Sean.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.british
From: darsie@eecs.ucdavis.edu (Richard Darsie)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Celtic Culture in Sacramento
Date: 19 Aug 92 20:12:24 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University of California, Davis

In article <17AUG199209213455@acad3.alaska.edu>, fsjtm@acad3.alaska.edu (McCranie John T) writes:
> 
> 
> Hello all.
> 
> A friend of mine has recently moved to Sacramento, California, and
> fears losing contact with things Celtic. Does anyone know of any pubs etc.
> in the Sacramento area that feature Celtic music on a (semi-)regular
> basis?  Gaelic classes? Any Scottish country dancing in the area?
> Anything at all?

The pub you want is the "Fox and Goose". There is Scottish country 
dancing but I don't offhand have the contact person for it.

Sorry I can't be more help.

Richard
From: bhmughal@athena.mit.edu (Bilal H Mughal)
Subject: Re: Conflict could lay foundations for Islamic state in Europe.
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 21:37:56 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.010802.16675@cs.yale.edu>, pavlovic-milan@CS.YALE.EDU (Milan Pavlovic) writes:
...

|> Then when you actually see what it's like living next to
|> an Albanian come back to us and tell us how it felt...

...

|> Regards,
|> Milan Pavlovic

Tell me, Milan, exactly how is it like living next to an Albanian?
Do they all smell?  Do they have foul manners or speak an uncouth
language?  Do they have a dirty religion?

Bilal
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:7901 soc.culture.europe:7221