HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: robm@bcrka391.bnr.ca (Rob Mclellan 1342743)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: A SERIOUS QUESTION!
Date: 15 Apr 92 16:15:57 GMT
Reply-To: robm@bcrka391.bnr.ca (Rob Mclellan 1342743)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada

First, at the risk of sounding maudlin, your posting reminds me of the
fundamental difference between my own interest in this and yours -- I'm
writing from the comfort of my (relatively) stable home, looking into
this whole arena with concern and interest, but not one borne of being
from the area, wanting to go home, to what ?, etc. (I will say that my
interest is a little more than academic, as my wife is from
ex-Yugoslavia, and I'll leave it vague at the risk of being "slotted" by
someone out here on the net. ). This is a long winded way of saying that
your posting reminded me of some of the pain, frustration, and anger
that must underlie all of this. Thanks.

You mentioned economic issues, and the exodus of professionals, etc.
This seems to be a perennial problem -- while there is a common unifying
cause (such as independence) everything takes a back seat, and when the
"party" is over the grim facts of reality reappear, and these days it
seems that the reality is always economic disaster. Do you think it's
possible that if/when everything settles out in the Balkans that the
"new" countries (Croatia, Slovenia, etc.) will actually be able to
re-establish economic (trading partner) ties? Have they in fact
disappeared at this point (I'm referring to the fact that it's difficult
to see with all the smoke, but postings about tanks being developed,
etc. draw into question what the current market/economic reality is at
this point)? Will they be able to overcome the hostilities to be able to
deal with each other?

There are precedents for establishing "free-trade" zones (US/Canada, EC
stuff) -- do you think we'll see some sort of economic arrangement along
those lines?

One of the difficulties being experienced in the recently split up
Eastern bloc (such as Poland) is that many of their products are on the
low end of the "sophistication/complexity" scale, and there are already
serious problems in the commodity markets. What do you feel are the real
potentials for growth? By the way, I'm truly ignorant about what the
engineering and technology climate is in all of ex-Yu -- if all were
peaceful and settled what would a returning computer science, EEng, etc.
expect to work on, do, work for? (you can count on one hand the number
of large engineering concerns in Canada :-).

And finally, if you manage to figure out a way to take a country, break
it into new countries, re-establish economic prosperity and peace and go
forward, please let us know. The issues are a little more than academic
concern here in Canada as well :-(.

Rob McLellan

BNR
Ottawa Ontario Canada
e-mail: robm@bnr.ca

yup these are definitely my ideas.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: abrodnik@watdragon.waterloo.edu (Andrej Brodnik (Andy))
Subject: Andrej (Was: Croatian postage stamps)
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 22:58:01 GMT

In article <1992Apr13.155350.12203@eng.cam.ac.uk> 89ms1@eng.cam.ac.uk (M. Sablic) writes:
>
>P.S. Andrej is a nice name. I have a nephew called Andrej. My sister
>called him that because Croatian Andrija sounds a bit stupid, it does
>not roll of the tongue. No, he is not a Slovene, don't get your hopes
>up.  If I did not have a soft spot for that name I would suggest that
>Slovenes have a lack of imagination when naming children.  I know more
>Andrejs than I can count.

Kako gre ze tista? "Andreje ni nikoli prevec (dovolj)?" Ali pa: "Andrej, to
najlepse je ime!"-)

APA 

Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: mitrovic@tik.ethz.ch (Srdjan Mitrovic)
Subject: Flood-wave in Bosnia
Organization: TIK, ETH Zuerich, Switzerland
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 08:43:58 GMT

Reported in NZZ 14.4.1992

Extremist Muslim release flood wave 

(Reuter)  
According to Radio Sarajevo, a paramilitary Muslim group 
executed their threat and opened 2 gates  of one of the
2 coffer-dams that they took posession of. An enormous wave is flowing
down the river Drina, reported the radio on Monday and added that 
citizens of the nearby city of Visegrad are being evacuated.

The Muslims occupied the dams last week and menaced either to blow them
up or to open the gates if the Serbian guerilla and the Yugoslavian
army do not retreat from the area. The flood wave that has been 
generated by the opening of gates should have already flooded
Visegrad, reported Tanjug. The bridges are flooded and the water 
entered several villages.


Srdjan Mitrovic
From: robger@intellistor.com (Robert Gerovski)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: News Briefs
Date: 8 Apr 92 13:57:44 GMT
Article-I.D.: intellis.1992Apr8.135744.10577
Organization: Intellistor, Longmont, CO

Reprinted without permission.

"The Wall Street Journal," Wednesday, April 8, 1992

The U.S. recognized the independence of Slovenia, Croatia
and Bosnia-Hercegovina. Bush lifted sanctions against the
three Yugoslav republics, and signaled a desire to later
recognize Macedonia as independent. Meanwhile, Yugoslav
air force planes launched attacks in Bosnia, and ethnic
Serbs claimed parts of the republic as their own.
--
Robert Gerovski
Organization: Ryerson Polytechnical Institute
Distribution: world
Date: Tuesday, 7 Apr 1992 10:49:33 EST
From: <BUAD5070@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca> (Tomislav Grgic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: "'Krajina' joins Serbia" (Was: Croatian postage stamps)
 <SCM.92Apr2153810@hector.cs.brown.edu> <1992Apr2.233419.19674@wuecl.wustl.edu>
 <1992Apr4.111423.10678@husc3.harvard.edu>

In article <1992Apr4.111423.10678@husc3.harvard.edu>, stojanov@husc8.harvard.edu
(Milan Stojanovic) says:
>
>My exact words were "defending western borders of Serbia," which is
>slightly different.  I do not claim that Zagorje has anything
>to do with Serbia.  But Krajina is and will one day officially be incorporated
>in Serbia .  Serbs are able to wait to the results of referendum.
>Are Croats? Feel free to use this whereever you want.
>So, you distort again. Desperate?  Nothing new.
>
>Regards,
>Milan

Milane:

On "Krajina" being oneday a part of Serbia - select your favourite response:

1) In your dreams
2) At the same time Kosovo joins Albania
3) At the same instant Backa is ceded back to Croatia
4) As soon as SR Serbia relinquishes control of Sandzak to Muslims
5) When Hungarians in Vojvodina through a referendum join Hungary (taking
   all of Vojvodina with them)
6) When the earth starts revolving around the moon

Unequivocally yours,

Tomislav Grgic
BUAD5070@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca
--------------------------------------------------
"Nedamo ni jedan pedalj hrvatske zemlje."
--------------------------------------------------
From: malenovi@plains.NoDak.edu (Nikola V. Malenovic )
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Money for Croatian Children
Date: 7 Apr 92 19:51:38 GMT
Article-I.D.: plains.16507
Organization: North Dakota State University, Fargo, ND

In article <1992Apr3.232826.10668@husc3.harvard.edu> benedejc@husc10.harvard.edu (Andrej Benedejcic) writes:
>>I do not know about
>>those two gentlemen, 
>
>Ha, ha, ha!  They are not "gentlemen," silly!  They are a couple of very
>cool undergrads!
>
>>who have never posted themselves their 
>>creations, 
>
>Bull shit!  Nikola posted his creation when he complained about my failure to
>acknowledge his authorship. 

nope. I have never posted such creation. I merely quoted YOU :-)

(am I born to be a lawyer or what?)


>Nobody convinced me to do anything.  I got those drawings from them in the
>same way that you got them from me.  Do you remember that?  Well,
>let me remind you:  less than two weeks ago you received a couple of
>"fingers" from me in a funny personal e-mail message.  Interestingly enough,
>at that time you thought they were hillarious.  Now, however, you behave
>like some Baptist televangelist.  You know, Milane, sometimes you really 
>amaze me!


well, yeah on the private plan I did consider your messages to be
funny, but I do not think posting them was a neat idea :-)



>DEAR PROFESSOR WICKERHAUSER:
>
>PLEASE, DO NOT USE MY POSTINGS TO DISCREDIT THE CREDIBILITY OF MILAN N.
>STOJANOVIC!  THE QUOTE IN YOUR LAST POSTING, FOR INSTANCE, WAS WRITTEN
>IN GOOD HUMOR AND WAS NOT MEANT TO BE USED FOR ANY KIND OF PERSONAL
>VENDETTAS ON THIS NEWSGROUP.
>                                               ANDREJ


Nah, Dr. Mladen Victor Wickerhauser, the professor at Yale University knows
better than quoting you.... ;-)

after all you are merely an undergraduate at Harvard, right?

(ah, that undergrad world...)

>>Regards,

>>Milan

>Regards,

>Andrej

Regards,

Nik

--
  "There was a point to this story,                    
  but it has temporarly escaped the cronicler's mind."
(So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish by Douglas Adams)
--
From: stojanov@husc8.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: THE CONCERT OF DUBRAVKA TOMSIC (PERSONAL IMPRESSIONS)
Date: 12 Apr 92 15:55:39 GMT
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

Andrej, this was an excellent one. 
BTW, are the girls good looking, and 
do you need help?

Milan
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:3819 soc.culture.europe:3694
From: z4m@vax5.cit.cornell.edu (Joe)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: STARCEVIC on Croatian stamps (Was: Croatian postage stamps)
Date: 10 Apr 92 14:25:37 EST
Distribution: soc
Organization: Cornell University

IN Message-ID:<1992Apr8.222301.2976@wuecl.wustl.edu> Victor Wickerhauser
writes:
>Please distinguish between verbal or symbolic violence and real physical
>violence.  If it bothers you so much that Croatia is so "insensitive" as to
>put Ante Starcevic's face on a stamp, why are you so quiet about Serbia
>putting several thousand artillery rounds into the old town of Dubrovnik?
>
>Regards,
>Victor
>------
>Prof. M. Victor Wickerhauser                   <victor@jezebel.wustl.edu>
>Department of Mathematics, Washington University, St. Louis, MO 63130 USA
>Telephone:  USA(314)935-6771, USA(314)727-0749;     FAX: USA(314)727-4963
>Sto se ljuckim trudom uzdignulo, Ljuckim znojem jopet se ponavlja. --Medo Pucic


Mr. Wickerhauser,

Putting aside the way that you conduct your discussions with people who
attempt to start a civilized dialogue, there isn't much left to say for 
your most recent masterpiece.

In an attempt to give you a fair answer to your (unfair) question let me 
restate my conviction so that you can understand it:

     NATIONALISM, which characters such as your beloved Ante Starcevic
     symbolize, IS RESPONSIBLE for the bloodshed in Yugoslavia (and the
     shelling of Dubrovnik, and the thousands of lives lost).

You seem to confuse (whether on purpose or not is irrelevant) the cause 
and effect of the sad events that we are witnessing in our former country.
I say *our* although it is very plausible, judging by your so typically 
slavic name and by what you stand for, that you never cared for it anyways. 

		Sincerely		Jovan

P.S.
Are you being paid by the amount of megabytes that you produce on S.C.Y, 
or do you have a fixed contract ???
From: malenovi@plains.NoDak.edu (Nikola V. Malenovic )
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: YU Army and Serbs
Date: 14 Apr 92 04:39:20 GMT
Article-I.D.: plains.16764
Organization: North Dakota State University, Fargo, ND

In article <1992Apr14.031301.14362@helios.physics.utoronto.ca> blazic@bullet.ecf.toronto.edu (BLAZIC  Joseph R) writes:
>In article <16740@plains.NoDak.edu> malenovi@plains.NoDak.edu (Nikola V. Malenovic ) writes:
>>In article <1992Apr12.213034.15285@watdragon.waterloo.edu> abrodnik@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca (Andrej Brodnik (Andy)) writes:
*) *) *) Hi,
*) *) *) 
*) *) *) I have yet another question (although I usually don't have very much success
*) *) *) in getting answers). Namely the question is about YU Army and Srbs. Did YU
*) *) *) Army ever confront (in a battle) Serbs? If yes, when, if no, why not?
*) *) *) I'm especially looking forward to receive the answer from Serbian netters.
*) *) *) 
*) *) *) Thanx in advance,
*) *) *) 
*) *) *) Andrej
*) *) *)  
*) *) 
*) *) Andy, if you were not joking, I would have thought you were dumb.
*) *) 
*) *) what was the term HINA uses "Srpsko-Chetnichka Soldateska" - Serbo-Chetnik
*) *) YNA.
*) 
*) *) hm, I think you were actually very malicious with your "question".
*) 
*) I think his question was a very fair one, even though it may not have been
*) an easy one to answer.



fair one? since when are rethoric questions fair?

remember about "Da li tvoji roditelji znaju da si peder?".
(yes, that is rethorical question of worst kind!)


*) *) p.s. yes YNA did attack Serbs. I can tell you about the caser where the
*) *) younger brother was holding half of his brother's body. YAF bombed them.
*) 
*) You are insulting our intelligence by saying that accidental bombings
*) are the same as targetted bombings.


no, I thought of hidding *YOUR* ignorance. The fact is it was no accident.
Many claim that particular one I was talking about was "Goodbye" from
General Tush. (for there are many I can come up with)


*) In response to Andy, I believe I read that something the other way around
*) happened, i.e. that JNA officers were abused by Serbs (Sheshelj's & Jovic's
*) guys).  I can't remember where I read this; maybe someone else knows.


no matter how it ends I would like to stress that many families of YNA
officers have been put up "against the wall". It is pointless that no matter
how much I oppose YNA actions and their officers stupidity, by no means I
can think of justifying theor treatment, specially in SLO/CRO. (and yes, in
BG there were some minor problems).


*) Regards,
*) 
*) Joe Blazic
*) blazic@ecf.toronto.edu


later,


Nik
--
                      THIS IS YOUR BRAIN.
                             ___
                            /(()\
                            \__\|


                  THIS IS YOUR BRAIN ON THE INTERNET.
                             ___    +--------------+
                            /(()\   | CRAY X-MP/18 |
                            \__\|===+______________+
--
From: benedejc@husc10.harvard.edu (Andrej Benedejcic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Croatian postage stamps
Date: 14 Apr 92 03:58:13 GMT
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

In article <1992Apr13.155350.12203@eng.cam.ac.uk> 89ms1@eng.cam.ac.uk (M. Sablic) writes:
>
>Right. I was referring mostly to the history of Rijeka, some of it applies to
>Istria but as you said was under Austrian control.
>
> [lots of information about the history of the city of Reka deleted] 
>
>Satisfied ?

Nope.  As you yourself pointed out, "you were referring mostly to the history
of Rijeka."  I was talking about ISTRA.  And, quite frankly, I really don't
care one way or another about Reka.

>Istria belongs to Croatia because that is the way the border is drawn
>of an internationally recognised state plus the fact that if given a
>choice majority of people in Istria would vote to live in Croatia. If
>you want that proven by a war, you can have it, but don't you think it
>is a waste of money ?

War?  Who said anything about war?  Given the present economic condition
of Croatia, Istra will be more than happy to join Slovenia of its own
accord.  As far as voting is concerned, I hear that HDZ didn't fare very
well in Istra.  

>Please, note that all the people who came also left.

So, how come that you remained?   

>I would be defending Rijeka

Yeah, right!  Ha, ha, ha!  You would be defending Reka in the same manner
that you are defending Croatia right now . . . . 

>Especially since Slovenes are hard to find
>in Croatian Istria except as tourists (yes, there are some but very
>few as a percentage of population). 

And what makes you qualified to say that?  After all, you only know your
town's history, whereas the history of the Istrian peninsula is pretty
much "terra incognita" to you.  

>Rijeka in Croatia is a major port,
>Rijeka in Greater Slovenia would be a poor relation of Kopar. 

Who talks of Reka becoming a part of Slovenia?  We want land, not some
shity city.  

>So when it comes to your offer...dream on.  (not that
>I have anything against Slovenes, always welcome as tourists.  Each
>summer, when I go to Silba I get the impression that the island has
>already been annexed ;-)

You know, the history of ex-Yugoslavia shows that dreams have an interesting
tendency of becoming reality.  ;-)


Regards,

Andrej
From: blazic@bullet.ecf.toronto.edu (BLAZIC  Joseph R)
Subject: Re: How sez Tesla is a Croat?
Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1992 14:38:50 GMT

Forwarded on behalf of Peter Granic, whose news server isn't working.
From:	cs4gp6al@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca (Peter Granic)

In article <1992Apr8.171629.10031@helios.physics.utoronto.ca> blazic@bullet.ecf.toronto.edu (BLAZIC  Joseph R) writes:
>Actually, since you are on the topic of borders, I guess you don't know that
>Croatia extends into a part of Slovenia.  It would be better if I had a
>map to illustrate, but here's how it looks:  
>
>A very thin strip (about one foot wide) going from Samobor (roughly) all the
>way to Ljubljana, where the territory opens up to totally engulf Andrej 
>Benedejcic's old home.
>
>:-)  ;-)

Although, the above was meant as a joke, it has reminded me of a scenario
such as this, which is actually true.

There is a rule among monarchies, that in order to take your place at the
thrown, the King/Queen must have been born in the country in which the 
thrown is.  Well, as we know Karadjordjevic (I am not sure of his first
name), the man who would like to return the monarchy to Serbia, was born
in England........not.  Quite amusingly, the hospital in which he was born
in was made "Yugoslav territory" by the British government.  As a result,
technically, he is considered born in Yugoslavia.  Thus, monarchists 
around the world will have no problem accepting his re-establishing of
a thrown.  

I heard the above story on CBC radio last year.


Peter Granic
From: malenovi@plains.NoDak.edu (Nikola V. Malenovic )
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Crookedness
Date: 7 Apr 92 19:56:25 GMT
Article-I.D.: plains.16508
Organization: North Dakota State University, Fargo, ND

In article <1992Apr3.233643.10669@husc3.harvard.edu> benedejc@husc10.harvard.edu (Andrej Benedejcic) writes:

>2.  The word "hohstapler" is basically an anachronism.  Young people
>    especially prefer to use the word "frajer" instead.


naaah. In Belgrade, "frajer" is more of a "cool dude", but "hoshtapler" has
apretty bad meaning (i.e. bad character). "Snob" is in between, for example
computer "snob" is a person who would buy 386 back in 1989 and bragg about it,
and we all knew s/he knows shit about computers, but it does not matter to
him/her, since s/he wants to show her/him self off.

"hoshtapler" is anchronsim though.

>Regards,
>
>Andrej


later,


Nik
--
  "There was a point to this story,                    
  but it has temporarly escaped the cronicler's mind."
(So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish by Douglas Adams)
--
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: sharon@unixland.natick.ma.us (Sharon Machlis Gartenberg)
Subject: Re: JUST WONDERING . . .
Organization: Unixland Public Access Unix & Think_Tank BBS
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 19:24:58 GMT

In article <1992Apr14.110637.13001@cc.uow.edu.au> cicic@cc.uow.edu.au (muris cicic) writes:
>benedejc@husc10.harvard.edu (Andrej Benedejcic) writes:
>
>>In article <1992Apr13.231602.27293@unixland.natick.ma.us> sharon@unixland.natick.ma.us (Sharon Machlis Gartenberg) writes:
>
>>Nothing can be done "to bring the fighting under control."  Don't you get it?
>>The Serbs and Croats are at war with each other!  They are fighting for the 
>>future borders of their countries.  The real losers in this conflict are the 
>>Muslims who will be most likely partitioned between Serbia and Croatia.

May I respectfully request that people try to be a little careful when
reposting these threads? I'm not sure if it was Andrej or Muris who made
the error, but I did *not* write the above paragraph. It was written *in
response* to one of my posts.

Thank you.

Sharon >
-- 
Sharon Machlis Gartenberg
Framingham, MA  USA
email: sharon@unixland.natick.ma.us   or   uunet!think.com!unixland!sharon
From: cicic@cc.uow.edu.au (muris cicic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: JUST WONDERING . . .
Date: 13 Apr 92 05:18:11 GMT
Organization: University Of Wollongong

benedejc@husc10.harvard.edu (Andrej Benedejcic) writes:


>	HOW MANY PEOPLE ACTUALLY READ THIS NEWSGROUP?

>	FROM WHAT I CAN TELL THE READERSHIP IS PRETTY MUCH LIMITED
>	TO THE OLD GANG OF:  NIKOLA, MILAN, JOE, ANDREJ, ANDREJ,
>	GRGA, VICTOR, LABROS, AND SHARON.

>	AM I RIGHT?

Apparently, there are a lot of people just reading the stuff.  I guess
a majority realised the hopelesness of participation.

Muris
From: victor@jezebel.wustl.edu (Victor Wickerhauser)
Subject: Croatia, Herceg-Bosna, Slovenia
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis Mo.
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 16:21:31 GMT


In Sec. of State James Baker's announcement of US recognition of Croatia,
Herceg-Bosna, and Slovenia, it is explicitly stated that the US views those
republics as comprising all the territories within their pre-crisis (1974)
borders.  The Yugo Army is fighting on foreign soil.

Victor

----
Prof. M. Victor Wickerhauser (314)935-6771  <victor@jezebel.wustl.edu>
Dept. of Mathematics, Washington University, St. Louis, MO  63130  USA
From: benedejc@husc10.harvard.edu (Andrej Benedejcic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Croatian postage stamps
Date: 11 Apr 92 19:05:53 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1992Apr11.150555.10965
Distribution: world
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

In article <1992Apr11.031302.9468@helios.physics.utoronto.ca> blazic@bullet.ecf.toronto.edu (BLAZIC  Joseph R) writes:
>
>I guess you don't care that you are a hypocrite.
>
>/Joe Blazic
>blazic@ecf.toronto.edu

Ha, ha, ha!  Well, let's put it this way:  No, I am not a hypocrite.  If you
are referring to that article in the "Perspective," then I guess I should
tell you in no uncertain terms that if I had to support the Devil himself for 
the benefit of Slovenia, I would do that too!  As it happened, in the fall of 
last year the recognition of Slovenia was TIED to the recognition of Croatia.
Why?  Primarily because of the naivete of our leaders who not only signed
a defense agreement with the Croats in the spring of 1991 (of course, the
Croats never abided by it) but were also caught by surprise when the
Croats tried to invade our financial system on the same day that "tolar"
was introduced.  Basically, our leaders forgot what the people in
Ljubljana say about the Serbs and Croats:  "Isto sranje, drugo pakovanje!"
Thus, we ended up in the same shit with Croatia, and, since the West showed
very little understanding for a number of cardinal differences between
Croatia and Slovenia, we basically had to support the Croatian cause for
our own benefit.  Now, thank God, this sorry episode of our struggle for
independence is history, and I, as well as other Slovenes, can finally 
say loud and clear what is truly on our minds.

Regards,

Andrej