From: alexei@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Alexei Moiseyev)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.europe,talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Estonia 13
Date: 12 Dec 92 19:07:09 GMT
Organization: Centre for Cognitive Science, Edinburgh, UK

Mr.Hietaniemi writes:
In article <11950@sorley.ed.ac.uk>, alexei@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Alexei Moiseyev) 
writes:


>> I do aknowledge that the
>> independence of Estonia and other Baltic countries was restored.  

>This is a good start for mutual understanding.

>> What
>> I am holding, however, is that it is not pertinent to the discussion
>> concerning human rights.   

>I would sure like to hear your somments on the CSCE observer groups
>review of Estonia. See my postings above.

I have said it many times and I shall say it again.  I am concerned
with moral issues here.  And when various legal bodies contradict
moral principles, it's all the worse for them.  Their credibility is
undermined.  
And quite generally, I hold that nationalism is, more often than not,
untagonistic to morality and democracy.  (For a laboured discussion of
this point see I.Berlin.  Two concepts of Liberty).

>> A country whose independence is restored is
>> OBLIGED to uphold human rights in equal measure to a new country.  

>Exactly. And this is what Estonia is clearly doing. The success of
                                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>it will be evaluated in the near future by the United Nations
>Human Rights monitoring group. 

Isn't it prejudjing things a bit?

>Don't you think that Russia should also invite such visitors?

I wouldn't mind.  But this is not necessary.  No allegations have been
made concerning Human rights abuses in Russia today.

>asks
>the observer
>Tapani Hietaniemi
						Answers, A.M-T.


In another article Mr>Hietaniemi writes:
>>>> My Rodina has suffered at least as much from Communism as Estonia.
> 
>>>It still did not lose it's independency. Estonia was about to lose
>>the culture of it's own. 
> 
>> I am not sure about that.  

>The "40 anniversary" of the Estonian Socialist Soviet Republic
>(R.I.P.) in 1980 was conducted solely in Russian. After couple
>of decades of stark Soviet rule the Estonian culture might
>have perished.

And Russian culture perished by the end the early 1930-ies.  With
raskulachivanie and systematic eradication of "Russian" element from
the "proletarian culture".  The Russian language lost it's Russianness
on becoming the language of inter-ethnic communication.  

>> First I am more concerned with freedom than
>> with some abstract *independence*.  

>The Estonian independency lost equalled that the Estonian freedom
>was lost.

Nonesense!  Nazi Germany was defenitely an independent and even
"racially pure" country, BUT was it free?  National independence
should not be equated with liberty.
> 
>> I think I have said enough to show that my Rodina has not committed 
anything.

>But the commands to establish dictatorship in Estonia were given in 
>Russian. The Soviet leaders of many ethnic origins (some were even Finnish
>like Otto-Ville Kuusinen) used Russian as their common language.

So it is about language after all?  
But surely the language was completely incidental to what was
happening.  The orders might have been given in Latin or Esperanto and
that would not have changed anything.

>Those people that committed injustices did not come from outer
>space, most of them grew up in your Rodina, unfortunately.

This does not make Russia a guilty nation.  The criminals who came to
power in Russia were not democratically elected with the full support
of population, unlike in some other countries.  To this extent what
they did is no reflection on the Russian nation at large.

>The Russians should accept this fact. They are victims and
>evildoers simultaneously.

Can't agree with this in view of the above.  SOME Russians did evil
things, all right.  This does not make Russians, a nation, a nation of
"evildoers". 

 One should cope with this tragic state
>of affairs. Even Finns, a tiny nation, have committed some very nasty things
>during this centrury - these facts should not be forgotten
>but clarified. And the previous injustices should be rectified.

Same does for the Finns.  Some Finns did evil things.  This however
does not make Finns a "guilty nation". 

>to democratic Russia with love
>Tapani Hietaniemi, University of Helsinki (the former Alexander University)
					I am glad to know that we are
beginning to agree over many things,  Alexei.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet