From: s8923098@macgraw.mqcs.mq.oz.au (Josef WIDJAJA)
Subject: Re: Indonesia & E. Timor (final)
Organization: Macquarie University, School of Mathematics, Physics, Computing and Electronics
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 08:06:12 GMT

In article <1992Dec12.211821.133482@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu> jb00@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (JOSE ANTONIO BASTO) writes:

  ...

|If you had read carefully, my friend, you would noted that I writhed the E.
|Timorese AND their ally, the Portuguese (we had more than sticks, I can assure
|you...).

OK. That still doesn't explain how the Dutch defeated Portuguese in all 
other parts of the archipelago but somehow were afraid to invade East Timore
because of the alleged superior weaponry in East Timor. I merely argued
that the Dutch let the Portuguese stayed in East Timore; you said the Dutch
were afraid of the East Timorese and the Portuguese which, to me, does not
make sense. There is no harm in admitting the Portuguese stayed in E.T 
because of the Dutch's mercy. You were trying to portray the Portuguese
as the unsung heroes in East Timor who repelled the possible Dutch attack
on the island and that they were the only friends of the East Timorese. 
I somehow doubt that, I am sure the East Timorese wouldn't mind forming 
friendship with the Dutch either, given half the chance. They probably 
couldn't tell the difference between Portuguese and Dutch since they would 
all look the same to the East Timorese.
 
|
|You probably are not aware of the previous postings, but I will repeat:
|at that time, the Portuguese had get ride of the Spanish occupation
|(60 years of "integration", if you know what I mean B-),
|and cleaned up the Dutch from Brasil (where you could put several Indonesia's,
|and much richer than your region). Therefore, I assume taht the Dutch where not
|in the best mood for just stop short of the total elimination of one of their
|rivals in the world trade in a region vital for Holland just because "simply
|were not interested)".

Not sure that I understand your last sentence. But there is no historical
evidence that the Dutch were afraid to invade East Timor because of 
superior Portuguese weaponry in East Timor, or as you suggested in your
previous posting, because of the bravery of the East Timorese. The evidence
pointed to the fact that the Dutch were a lot more superior in that part
of the world than the Portuguese, and they could have easily gained control
of East Timor if they wanted to. If my memory serves me right, the Dutch either
made a pact not to invade East Timor or simply declared that they weren't going
to invade E.T.
 
[stuff about East Timorese acceptance of Portuguese rule
 as a proof of ETese strong desire for freedom]
   ....

|From all the peoples that Portugal contacted trough the world (and we did
|trade/visit/colonize with people from many corners of this planet) the E.
|Timorese was probably one of the most friendly we met.
|
|As 1974 only about 1400 Portuguese were at E. Timor, and we only raised our
|flag for the Sunday ceremonies. The E. Timorese lived their lives the very
|same way they lived for centuries, because the Portuguese respected their
|culture, their leaders and their religions.
|
|Indonesia raises the flag everyday, and we all know what ABRI did during this
|last 17 years. Go to E. Timor and ask the population who they hate more: The
|former colonizers or the more recent ones...
|
|If E. Timorese was a weaker people, and less courageous, they would never put
|up such a resistance against the oppression of the giant Goliath that decide
|to "take care" about E. Timor. Until Indonesia allows an independent
|referendum to determine the future of the country, E. Timorese will continue
|to seek the freedom of their land, unless they are exterminated as a people
|(as some of your leaders defend...).


You seem to have digressed to another issue. You used the East Timorese 
belated (from your viewpoint) acceptance of the sovereignity of Portuguese 
King as a proof of their strong desire for freedom. I pointed out that 
the reasoning does not make sense because in other places, no one voluntarily
recognised the sovereignity of foreign kings.  Either:

1. Your reasoning is wrong, your facts are right. The East Timorese voluntarily
   recognised the sovereignity of the Portuguese King, but then they could not
   be the people with the strongest desire for freedom in SouthEast Asia 
   because in other places people died before they did this.

2. You reasoning is right, but your facts are partly wrong. The East Timorese
   have strong desire for freedom, and the Portuguese had to force them into
   recognising the sovereignity of the Portuguese King. And the only way 
   they could do this was because they had guns and the ETese only  had
   sticks. You call that friendly relationship?

You did not seem to address this issue in your reply.

On the new issue you have just introduced: I have nothing to say on flag raising
ceremony in ET by the Portuguese or Indonesians, not that I think it is too
important. I am, however, apalled at the human rights abuses committed by ABRI
in East Timor AND other parts of Indonesia. And, FYI, I object to you saying
that the Indonesian leaders are my leaders, because although I was born in 
Indonesia, I no longer reside in that country and wouldn't know who half of the
leaders are.  
  
  
--
 _________Josef Widjaja____________  
|  s8923098@mackay.mpce.mq.edu.au  |
|  Macquarie University, Australia | 
|__________________________________| 
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