HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu (Eric Rescorla)
Subject: Re: Circumcision (was Re: God Is Unfair)
Organization: Rescorla for himself.
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 00:03:00 GMT

In article <1992Nov19.221401.27880@watson.ibm.com> strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom) writes:
>Americans have far more "barbaric" practices:  in
>our community (Connecticut) it is almost universal
>for teenage and pre-teen girls and occasionally
>boys to have holes punched through their earlobes
>and metallic studs and rings forced through them.
>I would say almost 90% of the girls in my daughter's
>school class are "victims" of this form of mutilation.
I think you're massively overstating the case. I've had my ear pierced
and it didn't hurt at all. Do you really mean to maintain that having
one's foreskin removed doesn't hurt?
-Ekr

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Rescorla, DoD#431 (Nighthawk S)              rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu
Former chemist now CM400 mechanic                 ekr@eitech.com(preferred)
                "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: shallit@graceland.uwaterloo.ca (Jeffrey Shallit)
Subject: Governor Hunt Probe widens (from Freethought Today)
Organization: University of Waterloo
Distribution: alt
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 00:07:39 GMT

Copyright 1992 Freethought Today
Reprinted with permission

GOVERNOR HUNT PROBE WIDENS

An ethics review of Alabama Gov. Guy Hunt's use of state transportation
for paid preaching engagements around the country has widened into a
grand jury probe.

Alabama Foundation members and the national office of the Freedom From
Religion Foundation had originally called for an ethics probe when it
was reported that Hunt was traveling at taxpayers expense to accept
preaching invitations where he received cash "loving offerings." He is
a Primitive Baptist minister.

The ethics review panel, with a 4-0 vote in September, 1991, found
probable cause that using taxpayers money for preaching and personal
gain was an ethics violation. Attorney General Jimmy Evans is still
investigating whether Hunts acceptance of donations for preaching while
using the state plane was a violation. Evans created an 18-member grand
jury panel in May to consider whether to make an indictment.

In September, the Alabama Supreme Court ruled that Elmore County
taxpayer Ralph Windom has a right to sue the governor over the plane
trips, and order Hunt to produce his tax records.

The suit demands that Hunt repay the state an estimated $200,000 for
the preaching trips. Windom, a World War II and Korean War veteran,
says Hunts use of the state plane violates the Alabama Constitutions
ban on the use of tax dollars to support a religion.

The grand jury is also investigating Hunt for his personal and campaign
finances. Hunt received $10,000 from a businessman whom he later
appointed to the state liquor board. Hunt called the money a personal
gift and did not report it as a campaign contribution or on his
personal income tax return. The donor, Don Martin, awaiting federal
charges of defrauding $290 million from savings and loans and other
investors, says it was a campaign contribution.

The state jet costs about $800 an hour to operate. Last year Hunt paid
the state $9,724 for cash offerings he took on 18 church flights from
1987 and 1991, after Associated Press disclosed the trips, and promised
to quit using state vehicles to preach. However, Hunt later led suit
claiming the ethics law did not apply to him, partly because it
infringes his "religious rights." He lost the suit in federal court and
was ordered to pay all court costs. But Hunt insists he will bill
taxpayers for his share. The attorney general's office has spent at least
$62,000 defending against Hunt's suit.
From: czl30@duts.ccc.amdahl.com (Chris Lee)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Jesus Saves
Date: 18 Nov 92 16:30:29 GMT
Reply-To: czl30@DUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Chris Lee)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

More years ago than I would like to remember......

I saw a motorbike with 2 stickers on: JESUS SAVES and SUPPORT ASTON VILLA.
Obviously this means that Jesus is their goalkeeper.

Chris
Xref: sparky alt.atheism:21493 talk.origins:14398 talk.religion.misc:21356
From: strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom)
Subject: Re: "God is unfair" Bible passages.
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 03:03:26 GMT
Organization: IBM Research
Keywords: Jewish viewpoint

In article <11492@spark.ed.ac.uk>, iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Ivan A Derzhanski) writes:

|> 
|> >(3) (less obvious but still important)  You don't need
|> >    an intermediary (e.g. priests, Jesus, Mary) to approach God.
|> 
|> No?  What purpose do all those priests and prophets serve, then?  Why
|> does everyone consult them?  (That Abraham didn't doesn't mean much --
|> there were none in his time, and besides, he was already a personal
|> friend of Yahweh.)

In the days of the sacrificial cult, the priests performed
the *public* ceremonial duties of the tribe.  The priests
still had a lot of political power, which the prophets
and later the Pharisees tried to weaken.  Modern (Pharisaical)
Judaism rejects the view that the priests were intermediaries
or that a priest was needed for personal repentance.

Of course the Christian interpretation is very anti-Pharisaical,
and they take a very different view of priestly intercession.

I don't want to argue the different views here --- I'm doing
enough of that on alt.messianic --- I'm just stating the
Jewish position.

|> 
|> >(4) Obeying God doesn't mean shutting up and passively
|> >    submitting; it means *doing righteousness*.
|> 
|> But it did mean shutting up and submitting when the same man, Abraham,
|> was told to carve up Isaac.
|> 

Not according to the way Jews teach this.

First of all, Abraham knew ahead of time that the Isaac
would be the father of the nation of the covenant.
Isaac had not fathered any children at the time Abraham
was called to sacrifice him, so the way *I* teach
the story to my children, Abraham knew ahead of time
that God would not break his promise.

And according to some Midrashim, Abraham argued here too.

|> >In the Midrash, God *regrets* having destroyed the world
|> >in the Flood --- basically he says he *made a mistake*!
|> 
|> He also said (via Samuel, whose job was to make it less apparent that
|> you didn't need a go-between to approach Yahweh) that he had made a
|> mistake when he allowed Saul to be made king.  Saul wasn't smart
|> enough to start a discussion and to support his right to pardon Agag,
|> so he lost.  Too bad, because it certainly seems that his position was
|> the more moral one.
|> 

I also tend to be on the side of Saul here, too.

This is very parallel with debates today regarding whether
we should have stopped the Gulf War when we did, or 
continued on and destroyed Saddam Hussein.  The Midrash
tries to tilt the balance by claiming that Agag
fathered the ancestors of Haman.

The issue is a morally ambiguous one.  Unlike other
"bad" stories in the Bible (like the killing of the
children who mocked Elisha) this one appears in
the light of modern morality arguable from both sides.


-- 
Rob Strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641
IBM Research, 30 Saw Mill River Road, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
From: 00brwoodson@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: *TRUE* Christians
Date: 20 Nov 92 01:47:42 GMT
Organization: Ball State University, Muncie, In - Univ. Computing Svc's

In article <1992Nov19.054551.22002@bmerh85.bnr.ca>, dgraham@bmers30.bnr.ca (Douglas Graham) writes:
> In article <1992Nov18.192623.12079@bsu-ucs> 00brwoodson@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu writes:
>>In article <1992Nov18.044912.22475@bmerh85.bnr.ca>, dgraham@bmers30.bnr.ca (Douglas Graham) writes:
>>> In article <1992Nov17.220649.12040@bsu-ucs> 00brwoodson@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu writes:
>>>>Plus,
>>>>whether Christian or not, you have no right to judge others unless you are
>>>>wearing a black robe and spend your days in a courtroom.
>>> 
>>> Where on earth did you get this strange notion from?
>>
>>What's strange about it.  Don't you understand what I've posted.  Read
>>man,read.
> 
> Er, I did read.  And no, not much of what you wrote made a hell of a lot
> of sense to me, but that could be because I wasn't following the thread
> too closely.  Presumably though, the above statement of yours stands on
> its own merits.  I'm just wondering why you think the average Joe (ie.
> not a judge) has no right to judge others.  Personally, I think that's
> one those Christian memes, and a ridiculous one at that.  I judge others
> all the time.  So do Christians; in fact, they seem to some of the most
> judgemental folks around.  It's just that I'm not big on hypocrisy
> or fuzzy thinking.  That doesn't mean that I wouldn't use this line as a
> befuddling tactic in a debate with a Christian, but that seems only fair
> to me since it is they who claim to adhere to the rule, not I.

how would you like it if I judged you by just what I know about you now,
throwing in alot of my own assumtions of course, and came up with a picture of
you that wasn't you at all.  How would you feel about that.  I wouldn't like
it.  And as for those Christians who judge people, yea, I've ran into a few of
those and  all I can say is that they're hypocrites.  I don't waste my time
with them because they get on my nerves.  i don't need brother so-n-so telling
me how to live.  That's what I was trying to say above. No one should judge
others unless they've spent some time in law school and have Your Honor as
their first name.
> --
> Should the human race not be extinguished by a nuclear war, it will degenerate
> into a flock of stupid, dumb creatures under the tyranny of dictators who rule
> them with the help of machines and electronic computers.  This is no prophecy,
> just a nightmare.  -- Max Born.   **** dgraham@bnr.ca    My own opinions. ****
From: awmurray@eos.ncsu.edu (ALAN WAYNE MURRAY)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Circumcision (was Re: God Is Unfair)
Date: 23 Nov 92 14:02:06 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos

In article <1992Nov20.204029.27449@watson.ibm.com> strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom) writes:
>In article <1992Nov20.000300.2736@cs.yale.edu>, rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu (Eric Rescorla) writes:
>|> In article <1992Nov19.221401.27880@watson.ibm.com> strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom) writes:
>|> >Americans have far more "barbaric" practices:  in
>|> >our community (Connecticut) it is almost universal
>|> >for teenage and pre-teen girls and occasionally
>|> >boys to have holes punched through their earlobes
>|> >and metallic studs and rings forced through them.
>|> >I would say almost 90% of the girls in my daughter's
>|> >school class are "victims" of this form of mutilation.
>
>|> I think you're massively overstating the case. I've had my ear pierced
>|> and it didn't hurt at all. Do you really mean to maintain that having
>|> one's foreskin removed doesn't hurt?
>|> -Ekr
>
>No.  I'm maintaining that having one's ears pierced does.
>And for the first several months thereafter, replacing
>the studs hurts.

I think I see the problem now.  You obviosly don't have pierced ears!
When I had my ear pierced, it only hurt for about two weeks.  And, the
pain was *sooooo* severe when I had them pierced, that I had two done
in the same ear.  Wow, that must mean that I hurt for what 8-9 months?
NOT!

>
>While circumcision hurts, so does having silver nitrate
>drops in the eyes, and various immunizations, and other
>things which are medically necessary and which are routinely
>done to infants.  The circumcision doesn't stand out
>any more than these other traumas.

And, just an article or two back, you stated that circumcision was NOT
necessary. Why, then, go on to compare it with other medical procedures
that you yourself lable "medically necessary"?

>
>-- 
>Rob Strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641
>IBM Research, 30 Saw Mill River Road, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: hau4@ellis.uchicago.edu (sven  hauptfeld)
Subject: Re: Read the FAQ
Reply-To: hau4@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 08:57:03 GMT

In article <1992Nov15.205149.1@eagle.wesleyan.edu> kmagnacca@eagle.wesleyan.edu writes:
>> 
>> You are mistaken. The name that is given is more like Yeshua - not Jesus.
>> And the prophecy said that the name of the messiah would be Immanuel.
>
>   Yeshua is Hebrew for Jesus.  There is no "J" sound in Hebrew
>(or many other languages for that matter).

You mean, the Hebrew-speaking people heard the English-speaking people talk
about Jesus, but they were a little speach-impaired so they could only say
Yeshua?

	Sven
From: sichase@csa1.lbl.gov (SCOTT I CHASE)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,talk.religion.misc,sci.skeptic,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: Fundamentalist Nightmare
Date: 18 Nov 1992 12:17 PST
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory - Berkeley, CA, USA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.254.196
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <1ecn4cINN217@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, bx461@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Leo J. Mauler) writes...
> 
>What really bugs me about Fundamentalists bashing Gays is that
>they claim to have a deep personal relationship with Jesus,
>yet use Old Testament teachings to justify gay-bashing.
> 
>As I recall from my days as a Catholic robot, Jesus came along
>and started saying, "Hey guys, wouldn't it be a neat idea if
>we were nice to people for a change?  Like "Love your neighbor
>as yourself"!  Like "If you have to bend a rule to help
>someone, DO IT! (Sabbath)" ".  
> 
>Those guys who followed the Old Testament LIKE THE FUNDIES 
>had Jesus killed for saying things like that.  Makes you
>wonder about those televangelists...

The new catechism essentially reaffirms the old "hate the sin, love
the sinner," approach to homosexuality in the mainstream Catholic 
church.  This is the kind of teaching which resulted in the 
burning of witches to save their souls.  That's just what we need
in 1992.  Geesh.

-Scott
--------------------
Scott I. Chase			"It is not a simple life to be a single cell,
SICHASE@CSA2.LBL.GOV		 although I have no right to say so, having
				 been a single cell so long ago myself that I 
				 have no memory at all of that stage of my 
				 life." - Lewis Thomas
From: dpn2@po.CWRU.Edu (Damien P. Neil)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Blasphemy??
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 23:59:32 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
NNTP-Posting-Host: b63519.student.cwru.edu

In article <1992Nov21.052905.28697@midway.uchicago.edu> hau4@ellis.uchicago.edu (sven  hauptfeld) writes:
>In article <dpn2.108.722127085@po.CWRU.Edu> dpn2@po.CWRU.Edu (Damien P. Neil) writes:
>>
>>To nitpick -- it is quite possible to be atheistic and still believe in 
>>absolute good/evil. :-)
>
>How do you define "good" and "evil" in which you believe (or not)?
>
>	Sven

Sorry. I have no easy answers, no glib definitions. Call me back in a few 
decades, and maybe I'll be closer to coming up with something...
-----
Damien Neil   dpn2@po.cwru.edu    "Until somebody debugs reality, the best
Case Western Reserve University    I can do is a quick patch here and there."
CMPS/EEAP double majoring masochist               - Erik Green
From: David.Rice@ofa123.fidonet.org
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Out-Of-Body Crap
Date: 16 Nov 92 14:36:08 GMT
X-Sender: newtout 0.02 Nov  5 1992

1: rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu (Eric Rescorla)
ID: 1992Nov12.194234.27903@cs.yale.edu
And: Mic.Oettinger@launchpad.unc.edu (Mic Oettinger)
 
[Major cut here]
 
MO> "Thirdly, and I ask this out of sheer confusion myself (and I'd
MO> really like true opinions on what you make of this), I am aware
MO> that your [sic] wonderful scientists have now discovered a way
MO> to tap the area of the brain that triggers out-of-body experiences,
MO> and that they now in fact have a laboratory where one (with much
MO> money to blow) can experience an OOB.
 
ER> "That's funny. I've never heard of this. You have a peer reviewed
ER> paper for this, I'm sure."
 
As a victim of spontanious "out-of-body-experienecs" all my childhood,
I can state without a doubt that Mic is FULL OF SHIT (see his claims
below). The OBE is a psychosis, that has several trigers. Pain is
one, and severe depression is another. When one suffers OBEs, it
is a terrifying experience, and as a child I was terrified of going
to bed at night.
 
I have "left my body," floating to the ceiling, fallen through
floors into the apartment below--- all very, very real. But that
DOESN'T mean it happened in reality! It's all in the mind of the
disturbed person.
 
I have the vivid memory of someone -pulling- me out of my body,
taking my hand, and leading me through walls into someone else's
house. I was totally "awake," and fully aware of my body still
sleeping in my room. I also remember being lifted out of my body
by my shoulders--- I FELT -HANDS-. It felt just as real as any
waking activity.
 
But these events didn't actually happen except in my head. There
are people who claim they can induce an OBE with willpower and
intent. There are also people who claim they visit places while
OB, but they are all liars or self-decieved.
 
MO> "Given that after coming back from one of these the person can
MO> relay information which occured in other rooms/states/countries/
MO> etc [sic] while they were 'gone', what do you make of this obvious
MO> proof that the human body entails more than its physical being?
MO> How would you explain this, and does this not provide a damn good
MO> proof that when we die we are only leaving our physical body?
 
ER> "I don't need to explain this, because I don't even know it exists.
ER> Sounds like bullshit to me."
 
It -is- utter bullshit. There has been thousands of "remote viewing"
experiments, and not a one has resulted in a successful "viewing."
There were several such tests of Swan, who failed utterly, once his
method of cheating was deduced.
 
MO> "I'd appreciate any input and anybody who would like to know where
MO> this laboratory is, I can certainly give you that info."
 
ER> I'd settle for a paper in a refereed journal. Surely you have one.
 
Don't hold your breath. Of the "labritories" that have reported
successful experiments in OBEs, controls are not put in place.
 
ER> -Ekr

--- Maximus 2.00
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: sieferme@stein.u.washington.edu (Eric Sieferman)
Subject: Re: ***Fatima***
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 18:00:57 GMT

In article <1992Nov23.023613.12767@massey.ac.nz> G.A.Arias@massey.ac.nz (G A Arias) writes:
>After reading in this group something concerning to Fatima, I went
>to the nearest library to find out more about it. I was overcome
>by joy when I read about it.

Are you serious?

>I read almost everything. the Virgin's
>message is lovely but I found her quite strict. Anyway, it was almost
>the library closing time, I was absorbed by the book when I saw it! I saw
>some flashes among the shelves but I couldn't see much. I tell you one
>thing: I was not poisoned. Could it be a miracle?

No, it's the result of reading small print in low light.
The only miracle is your gullibility.
 
>I'm new in this group so I couldn't read all the postings related
>to Fatima... therefore, I'd appreciate any information about it. I'm one 
>of the fan club now. Send it to my address or to the group. Thanks.

G. A., you must be more careful about leaving your logged-in
terminal unattended.

-- 
| Eric Sieferman            |    sieferme@u.washington.edu          |
| U. of W., M.C.I.S.        |    (206) 685-3104                     |
From: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: FAQ FILE REMINDER (How to get >>666<< lines of FAQ)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 11:10:13 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.

[ This is a canned posting ]

This is a reminder about the alt.atheism Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
file.

The file exists to help new readers avoid embarrassing themselves by asking
questions which have been covered over and over again.  Please read it before
posting.

If you haven't already done so, reading the posts on news.announce.newsusers
titled "A Primer on How to Work With the Usenet Community", "Answers to
Frequently Asked Questions about Usenet" and "Hints on writing style for
Usenet" would be a good idea.

To find a copy of the alt.atheism FAQ file:

1. Check the newsgroup alt.atheism.  There should be a copy of the latest
   version of the FAQ file.  Look for the subject line "Alt.Atheism
   Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)".

2. Check the newsgroup news.answers for the same subject line.

   If you don't find anything in steps 1 or 2, your news system isn't set up
   correctly, and you may wish to tell your system administrator about the
   problem.

3. If you have anonymous FTP access, connect to rtfm.mit.edu [18.172.1.27].
   Go to the directory /pub/usenet/alt.atheism, and you'll find the latest
   version of the FAQ file there.

   FTP is a a way of copying files between networked computers.  If you
   need help in using or getting started with FTP, send e-mail to
   mail-server@rtfm.mit.edu with
      send usenet/news.answers/ftp-list/faq
   in the body.

4. If you don't have FTP, send mail to mail-server@rtfm.mit.edu
   consisting of the following lines:

      send usenet/news.answers/finding-sources
      send usenet/alt.atheism/Alt.Atheism_Frequently_Asked_Questions_(FAQ)

5. (Penultimate resort)  Send mail to info-server@mantis.co.uk consisting of
   the following line:

      send atheism/atheism.txt

   and our poor overworked modems will try and send you a copy.  There's
   other stuff, too; interesting commands to try are "help" and
   "send atheism/index".


mathew


Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: gmiller@worldbank.org (Gene C. Miller)
Subject: Re: Circumcision (was Re: God Is Unfair)
Followup-To: alt.atheism
Organization: worldbank.org
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 14:55:29 GMT

In article <dpn2.124.722235695@po.CWRU.Edu>, dpn2@po.CWRU.Edu (Damien P.
Neil) wrote:
> 
> In article <1992Nov19.221401.27880@watson.ibm.com> strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom) writes:
> >Americans have far more "barbaric" practices:  in
> >our community (Connecticut) it is almost universal
> >for teenage and pre-teen girls and occasionally
> >boys to have holes punched through their earlobes
> >and metallic studs and rings forced through them.
> >I would say almost 90% of the girls in my daughter's
> >school class are "victims" of this form of mutilation.
> 
> Not a good comparision -- having one's ears pierced is a painless operation, 
> as opposed to circumcision.

Our son was circumcised via a ring and sleeve method. A small grooved
sleeve was placed on his penis, the foreskin stretched over it and a little
O ring slipped on to the groove. The whole contraption with his shriveled
foreskin fell off about a week later. At no time was there any blood,
knives, anesthesia, nor did he ever show the slightest discomfort. This
method is readily available here in the US. I've forgotten who manufactures
the ring and sleeve. Secondly, our pediatrician has informed us that their
professional association (American Academy for Pediatrics, or some such) is
about to reverse its stand on circumcisions, based on a study that showed
uncircumcised baby boys had a higher incidence of urinary tract infections
than circumcised ones. Thirdly, I seem to remember reading somewhere that
among the Plains Indians, the Cheyennes (and perhaps others) circumcised
their boys. Is there anyone who can elaborate on circumcision outside the
Judeo-Christian tradition?
Gene
Newsgroups: alt.atheism