From: wmuhanna@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Waleed A Muhanna)
Subject: Re: Israel's peace talks with Syria
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 17:33:03 GMT

In article <1992Sep13.182203.17358@discus.technion.ac.il> davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami) writes:
>In article <1992Sep11.215207.18191@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> wmuhanna@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Waleed A Muhanna) writes:
>>In article <1992Sep11.174905.11245@cs.brown.edu> hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:
>...
>>>When Israel has launched attacks against Arab targets it has
>>>*ALWAYS* done so either in retaliation for past Arab terrorist activity, or
>>>(as in the case of the Six Day vistory) to insure a strategic advantage in an
>>>inevitable conflict.
>>
>>Hogwash.  Expansionism and colonization ranked high among its motivations,
>>and sadly it still does today.  Zionists, since Hertzl, make no secret
>>about this. Ben-Gurion's conception was that "a Jewish state...will serve
>>as an important and decisive stage in the realization of Zionism," but only
>>a *stage*: the borders of the state "will not be fixed for eternity,"
>>but will expand either by agreement with the Arabs "or by some other
>>way," once "we have force at our disposal" in a Jewish State.  His
>>long-term vision included Jordan and beyond, sometimes even
>>"the Land of Israel" from the Nile to the Euphrates.
>>
>>As early as 1938, Ben-Gurion had told a Zionist meeting: "I favor partition of
>>the country because when we become strong power after the establishment
>>of the state, we will abolish partition and spread throughout all of
>>Palestine."
>>
>>Likud's platform includes the *East* bank of the Jordan river as part of
>>Israel.  Don't tell me that this is for defensive reasons too.
>
>Well, The Jewish people is claiming the whole of Palestine from the
>early days of Zionism We claim it not only for the current inhabitants
>but for the whole 13 millions Jews of the world. This is the foundation
>of Zionism. 

Thanks for supporting what I said.  Not surprisingly, however, you failed 
to mention one crucial detail: Palestine is already inhabited.  
``There is one fact which zionists dare not avert their eyes, though they 
seldom like to face.  Palestine proper has already its inhabitants,'' wrote 
Israel Zangwill in 1920.   Zionists wish this fact would just go away, which
partly explains their pathelogical denials of the Palestinians as the 
native people.  

The territory in question, Palestine, had a large majority of non-Jews prior 
to the creation of the zionist state.  This is what makes zionism colonial.
If you believe that it was justified to create an exclusivist Jewish state 
in Palestine at the expense of the indigenous inhabitants, a view which is 
common to virtually all known strains of zionism, then your views are 
inherently colonial and possibly racist even if you don't acknowledge them 
as such.

To say that Israelis today, both Jews and non-Jews, have a right to a 
non-exclusivist state in which *all* have equal rights is a defensible 
position, one which I wholeheartedly support.  To say that Jews from all 
over the world have the right to emigrate to an exclusivist state in 
Palestine, to settle on land acquired via conquest and "ethnic cleansing"
or confiscated from subjugated natives, is not defensible from any position 
of justice, morality, or even political pragmatism.   To say that colonizers 
deserve special exclusive privilages (such as the right to "return", land 
tenure advantages, job advantages, much better state funding, etc) over 
the indigenous inhabitants is racist and colonial.  As you readily admit,
this is a central tenent of zionism, and this is what makes it a settler 
colonialist movement (just like the Apartheid movement in South Africa).

>...
>>>Since the earliest days of the Jewish liberation struggles
>>>against Britain, all Jewish revolutionaries tried to avoid civilian casualties
>>>if *AT ALL* possible.
>>
>>Tell that to the inhabitants of Deir Yassin and other villagers, old men
>>women and children, massacred in cold blood.  Read up on the tactics of
>>Irgun and the Stern Gang of thieves and thugs used to terrorize and
>>kill civilians.  Recall that it was Yitzhak Shamir who, in an attempt to
>>justify the tactics of thugs like him, claimed in 1943 that "Neither Jewish
>>ethics nor Jewish tradition can disqualify terrorism as a means of combat."
>
>I smell a gross lie here! can you cite your source?

Shamir wrote this in his essay "Terror" which appeared in "He'Khazit" 
[the Front], LEHI's underground newspaper, in August 1943, and reported
in Al Ha'mishmar, December 24, 1987.  

>There were many more incidents when "thugs" called off an operation
>(attack on British officer) just becuase his wife was in the car, and
>risked brutal punishment (or even death) when captures. another story
>tells about a group of "thugs" who planed derailing a British ,military
>train and in the last minute they noticed that the wrong train is going
>to be hurt and in personal danger removed the bomb. This is true of all
>3 organizations. 

Are these the same terrorists whose favorate tactic was to throw bombs
into Arab shops and street crowds and to roll dynamite-filled barrels
into Arab marketplaces?  The atrocities of groups led by Begin and Shamir,
terrorists who later became prime minisers, included acts against Jews.

>...
>>Tell that to the 20,000 civilians who died and the other thousands who
>>were maimed as a result of Israeli use of cluster and incendiary bombs
>>on civilian areas during its invasion of Lebanon.  Even hospitals were
>>bombed.
>
>Again, if Israel was adopting Arab standards - 50-100K were minimum of
>the Arab bloodshed - 20K is much but considering the opponents and the
>mess in Lebanon , I think the Lebanese can thank themselves for
>absorbing the wrath of Israel and not oif Syria. Remember the 10K Syrians
>of El-Hama. 
>

My G-d!!! "thank themselves for absorbing the wrath of Israel?"  
Your utter disregard for the lives of people who happen to be Arab 
is disgustingly racist.  I wonder how you would feel if someone said,
at any time and under any circumstances, "Jews can thank themselves for 
absorbing the wrath of X and not of Hitler. ... If X was adopting Nazi 
standards ...."  

Alas, this sort of contempt and anti-Arab racism is something we have 
come to expect in this newsgroup from zionists for whom an exclusivist 
state has become a religion.  Perhaps this should not be surprising,
given equally racist utterances by Israeli leaders themselves.  Eitan
once likened the Palestinians to ``drugged cockroaches.''  In 1982, Begin
described the Palestinians, in a speacd in the kenesset, as ``two-legged
beasts.''  Last week, Rabin was quoted in the Ha'aretz newspaper as
saying he dreams ``Gaza would sink into the water.''  Think about what 
zionism and the occupation is doing to your soul.

>[rest deleted]
>David.

Waleed Muhanna
-=-
 "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people
  to do nothing."  -- Edmund Burke
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast