From: cdash@moet.cs.colorado.edu (Charles Shub)
Subject: Re: Question on pulling the flagstick w/ ball holed.
Organization: University of Colorado at Colorado Springs
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 04:15:47 GMT

There has been a bit of confusion about balls resting against
flagsticks.  Let's try and clear it up.

Once a ball is holed, the play of the hole is over and nothing one
does after that makes a difference.  This is supported by several
decisions, including 1-1/2, 1-1/3, 1-1/4, and 2-4/11.

Decision 17-4/3 covers this specific situation

Title: Ball resting against flagstick moves away from hole when
       flagstick is removed by opponent or fellow-competitor.

Q:  A player's ball is resting against the flagstick.  Without the
    player's authority, his opponent or a fellow-competitor removes
    the flagstick and the ball moves away from the hole.  What is the
    ruling?

A:  In match play, the opponent incurs a penalty stroke and the ball
    must be replaced against the flagstick - Rule 18-3b.

    In stroke play, the ball must be replaced against the flagstick
    without penalty to anyone - Rule 18-4.

    In either form of play, the player may then move or remove the
    flagstick as prescribed in rule 17-4.

Rule 17 - 4 cited below refers to a ball not yet holed.
The rule is subject to misinterpretation.  Specifically,

    If the ball rests against the flagstick when it is in the hole, the
						 ^^
this "it" refers to the flagstick, not the ball --+

now, on to the trail of confusion...

Brad Craig (brad@meaddata.com) started it off by writing:
=>   While playing a friendly round of golf this past Saturday, a playing
=>   partner holed a green side chip for birdie.  He proceeded to walk to
=>   the flagstick, pull the flagstick out in such a way as to bring the
=>   ball out with it.
=>   
=>   Seeing that he got a birdie and would win 4 skins because of it, I
=>   joked with him and said that since he pulled the flagstick out and the
=>   ball came out of the hole, that he incurred a penalty.  I swore to him
=>   that I had hear/read this some where.  He did not belive me. Anyway I
=>   would not have made him take the penalty anyway, after all it was for
=>   fun.

Brad was probably confusing rule 17-4 and rule 16-2.  16-2 covers the
ball overhanging the hole.  Since the ball was holed, removing the
flagstick and (incidentally) the ball incurs no penalty.  Had the ball
not been holed, Brad's playing partner would have been expected under
the rules to place the ball at the lip of the hole and tap in.  In
either case, there would be no penalty.

andrews@qut.edu.au responded correctly:
=>  As I understand it, if the ball went into the hole so that it was
=>  below the level of the hole it is deemed to be in the hole. It
=>  then doesn't matter how it is removed from the hole as the player
=>  has already finished out on that hole.

Finally, Grant Edwards (grante@aquarius.rosemont.com) correctly quoted the
rule and seems to have misapplied it.

=>  From the _Rules_of_Golf_ (1991 edition, but this part didn't change):
=>  
=>    17-4. Ball Resting Against Flagstick
=>  
=>    If the ball rests against the flagstick when it is in the hole, the
=>    player or another person authorized by him may move or remove the
=>    flagstick and if the ball falls into the hole, the player shall be
=>    deemed to have holed out at his last stroke; otherwise, the ball, if
=>    moved, shall be placed on the lip of the hole, without penalty.

This rule is only applicable if the ball is not yet holed.  If the
ball is holed (at rest within the circumfrence of the hole and all of
it is below the level of the lip of the hole) play of the hole is
already complete.

=>  Grant's observations:
=>  
=>  Due to the shape of the cup, most balls that go into the hole will
=>  come to rest against the flagstick.  If the ball was resting against
=>  the flagstick, and came out of the hole, then to remain within the
=>  rules, the ball should have been placed at the lip of the hole.

only if the ball was not already holed before the flagstick was removed.

=>  You would then have to tap in.

again, only if the ball was not holed

=>  So, be careful when removing the flagstick!  (I don't play with
=>  anybody that would make me place the ball and tap in, but I would hear
=>  about it for weeks.)

Good advice for when the ball has not yet been holed but is resting against
the flagstick. 
-- 

charlie shub  cdash@cs.Colorado.EDU      -or-        (719) 593-3492     
  or even  cdash@colospgs (BITNET)  if the above address won't work
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf