From: jim@doink.b23b.ingr.com (James B. Reed)
Subject: re: That sin thing
Reply-To: jimreed@b23b.ingr.com
Organization: Intergraph Corporation, Huntsville, AL.
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 17:08:31 GMT

In article <4422.29E4DA99@umagic.FIDONET.ORG>, Christian.Walters@p0.f14.n373.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Christian Walters) writes:
|> But doesn't the Bible say that we must be born again before we can get a
|> reserved spot in heaven? Or is that a modern interpretation? Wherever it
|> comes from, it looks like standing orders are to not admit anyone past
|> the Pearly Gates unless he's been "saved."

Jesus coined the phrase "born again" in a conversation He had with a
Jewish leader named Nicodemus.  (Ok, ok, Jesus didn't speak English,
He said the equivalent in either Hebrew or Aramaic.)  He told Nicodemus
that he had to be born again in order to enter the Kingdom of God,
essentially what you said.

|> Why? Why is it automatically assumed that we choose to sin? Is it
|> something about human nature? If it is, then I don't see why we should
|> answer for a design flaw. Or is it something about free will?

You always have an interesting choice of words.  And you spout
questions so quickly :-).

It is not "assumed" that we choose to sin.  The Bible asserts that it
is a fact that all have sinned.

It is about free will.  We are not forced to sin any more than we are
forced to do good.  We get to choose.  It's true that different choices
lead to different results.  Someone who drops out of high school
probably won't make as much money as someone who completes college,
is that unfair?

Whether or not that's a design flaw is an interesting question that
assumes quite a bit.  The biggest assumption is that we can somehow
judge God's design.  I don't understand all God had in mind when He
designed things, nor do I understand how everything works, therefore
I am incapable of determining whether or not there are flaws.

|> But we
|> assume that residents in Heaven, or at least God himself, have free
|> will, and never choose to sin.

Another interesting question.  There are many Christians who believe
that Satan and his demons once were angels in Heaven.  The story goes
that Satan was the "fairest" (or something like that) angel.  He got
so full of himself that he tried to put himself above God (apparently
with support of other angels).  God understandably got upset,
permanently cast out the lot of them.  They've been making things
difficult for mankind since the Garden of Eden.

I can't comment much on what the Bible says about this.  I'm sure
there's not blatant, clear-cut, obvious statement of the whole
story and I haven't personally tried to track down all the pieces
and make sense out of them for myself.

|> But no, I've never done anything that I knew was wrong. I *have* done
|> bad things, but they all seemed like good ideas at the time. Maybe I was
|> fooled by someone, maybe I wasn't thinking or was misinformed, or maybe
|> I was angry and my thinking was cloudy. But I've never sat down and
|> plotted an evil. All my evils were spotted through hindsight :)

Sin is not necessarily a plotted evil.  Sin means missing the mark,
failing to live up to God's standards whether in a "major" or "minor"
way.  It includes lieing as well as murder.  You've never even told
a "little white lie?"  (No darling, I really like your new perfume,
my eyes are watering because I'm so glad to see you. :-)

|> Do I
|> still get to burn, because I can't believe in God?

"Can't", "won't", or "would rather not"?

|> Besides, I remember a story where Jesus lost his temper in Jerusalem,
|> and trashed the joint :)

True.  Actually it was the temple, not the whole city :-).  He was upset
at the misuse of the temple area and took drastic steps to correct the
problem.  Haven't you ever heard of "righteous indignation"?

|> >By "atone" I mean to make things OK with God.  By sinning or rebelling
|> >we have shown ourselves flawed, and being flawed we are incapable of
|> >making things OK.
|>  
|> I have never once, in all my life even when I was a churchgoer,
|> understood this. God is perceived as a perfect being capable of creating
|> imperfect beings? It doesn't make sense. Why would he want to? What does
|> he have to gain from us?

Yet another good question I can't really answer.  I think many Christians
would say that God want to have a relationship with us.  He created us
with free will so that we can choose to have that relationship or not.
Those that choose the relationship spend eternity with Him in Heaven,
those that choose to not have the relationship don't.  Nobody's being
forced anywhere.  The only condition is that in order to have the
relationship, you have to accept Jesus.  Is that so bad?

Now for the question of why did God give us a choice, why didn't he just
make us so that we would all choose "the right thing".  Would you rather
have a friend who choose on his/her own to be your friend, or someone
who had no choice?

|> Then why do you keep on believing in Christianity if you admit that it
|> doesn't make sense?

I didn't mean to say it doesn't make sense, I meant to say I don't
understand everything about it.  Why do you keep believing natural
laws when you don't even know all of them?

|> And we're not talking about blowing down some city
|> walls with sonics of making the sun stop. This is the CRUCIFIXION, the
|> focal point of the whole religion! *I* don't know what God had in mind
|> when he slaughtered his own son. Seems damned cold-blooded to me - even
|> if he didn't stay dead.

For some reason I don't understand, that was what it took.  Apparently
God preferred to put Himself and His Son through that so that He could
have a relationship with you and me, rather than not have that relationship.

Is that being ego-centric of me?  Only if it's not true.

-- 
James B. Reed                | If at first you don't succeed,
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