HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000)
Subject: Re: Elghani flames again (JUSTICE/EQUALITY IN...)
Organization: LC
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 20:29:37 GMT

In article <1992Sep14.163007.489@das.harvard.edu> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
>In article <1992Sep14.064030.2503040@locus.com> jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes:
>>In article <1992Sep13.230113.16106@das.harvard.edu> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
>
>>>In article <1992Sep12.081411.2405344@locus.com> jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes:
>
>>You are off.  Yes *OUR* AMERICAN MONEY.  I am a US CITIZEN FYI.
>
>I didn't know that.  Sorry to have flamed at you about it, but I
>honestly thought that you only had Lebanese citizenship.

Apology accepted.  It takes a great person to apologize.  :)

>>My interest in AMERICA is not only associated with the saftey of
>>israel like some.  
>
>Niether is mine, and you're coming awfully close to anti-Semitism by
>implying that Jews are more interested in Israel than the US.

No.  I said "some" up there, read it.  I am not anti-semitic.  I have
great sympathy for the German Jews that got tortured by Hitler.  By
seeing pictures of the acts of the Nazis,  I tend to remember the
many things in lebanon.   I know the suffering they went thru.
I am anti land theft, but not anti-jewish nor anti-arabic <==> anti-semite.

>> ALSO, FYI, the US and Lebanon do alow dual
>>citizenships. So, I am an American by heart/practice and Lebanese 
>>via parents.
>
>Thats fine.  Again, I apologize for not knowing that, and assuming you
>were solely a Lebanese citizen.
>
>>I hope you don't have a problem with that.
>
>I don't.

Thanks.

>
>> I don't FLAME UP if the US
>>doesn't give $10 BILLION in loan guarantees to Lebanon, nor
>>five billions either.  You and many israel-lovers do.  If BUSH doesn't
>>give moeny to israel, the lobby moves in to arm twist OUR president.
>
>President Bush promised Israel that money in order that Israel would
>stay out of the war that Iraq tried to drag them into.  Had he not,
>then we would have had no reason to expect the money, or feel
>rejected.
>
>800 zillion lobbies try to twist the Presidents arm.  The Kuwaiti
>lobby got him to sacrifice close to 500 American lives, and you don't
>complain about their influence.

I sure do,  why should we Americans die for some scum Emir?

>
>>Question:  Are you American, Israeli, or Jewish?  Try and answer that
>>if you wished to make the above comment about me.
>
>I'm an American Jew, with ancestors from Lithuania, Poland and Russia,
>and relatives in Russia, the US and Israel.  Only a few (3) are left
>in Russia, though.
>
>I have no problem telling people where I'm from.

Issue resolved above, we can forget about it :)

>
>Adam
>
>
>Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu
>
>What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
>at all.  How true that is.
From: bgdv706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (Noam Tractinsky)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Was Amer a Mossad agent? (Was: Re: Fair Swap (1967 war again))
Date: 5 Sep 92 06:27:58 GMT
Organization: University of Texas @ Austin

In article <1992Sep3.181943.25800@cs.brown.edu>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
+ <25500@castle.ed.ac.uk> egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson) writes:
+ #<1992Sep3.133246.10319@cs.brown.edu> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
+ ##
+ ##Neither do I, because it is clear that the sole responsibility to the
+ ##`67 war lies with the Soviet Union, Egypt, Syria and Jordan.
+ #
+ #That's odd - I don't remember seeing these countries invading Egypt.
+ 
+ Sorry to sound like the Mutlu, but let me refresh your memory. The
+ following is taken from Sadat's book, ""In search of identity" p. 172.
+ 
+ "Nasser said 'now, with our concentrations in Sinai, the chances of war are
+  fifty-fifty. But if we close the strait, war will be one hundred percent
+  certainty' Then, turning to Amer, he asked 'are the armed forces ready,
+  Abdel Hakim?' Amer pointed to his neck and said 'on my neck be it, boss!
+  Everything's in tip-top shape'"


	In JHenderson's script, Amer was a Mossad agent.

 
+ -Danny Keren.


Noam
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:19854 talk.politics.soviet:7843 soc.culture.greek:8749 soc.culture.europe:8304 soc.history:8189
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history
Subject: 'ARMENIAN SOLDIERS ANNIHILATING ESCAPING FAMILIES'
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 16:01:19 GMT


In article <visser.715721375@convex.convex.com> visser@convex.com (Lance Visser) writes:

>	Dont bother to look at archives because there have already been
>at least six postings that I have positivly identified as Previously
>Multu posts.  All that really changes is the insult header.  The rest
>is from the Multu archives. 

No kidding. Below you will find an article from Turkish daily Milliyet, 
which references another article from British Sunday Times:

---begin translated text---

   Milliyet, 2 March 1992; Page 1.  by Altan OYMEN

  Title: 'Massacre?' OVER THERE

"There were conflicting news about the Azeri-Armenian fights in Karabag
for a long time. While the Azeri sources claimed Armenians as aggressors,
most of western press was writing just the opposite. Especially in some
French newspapers..  French Government was being  called to take action
to save 'poor Armenians' from `aggressive Azeris.'"

The voice of truth against this Forgery has come from  British newspapers.
The British journalists who went to the region told about what is
happening there.
 
Here is what Sunday Times printed on First Page with photographs:

	'ARMENIAN SOLDIERS ANNIHILATING ESCAPING FAMILIES'

A few lines from the text of the news:

	''Armenian soldiers killed more than 450 Azeris, mostly women and
	children, by bullets and bayonets. The victims were escaping from
	the attack on their cities to save their lives. Hundreds, perhaps
	thousands of people are lost or killed (..) The Massacre was realized
	in a pass where 1500 people were surrounded by Armenian soldiers,
	on wednesday morning.''

The journalist Thomas Goltz, is not only writing based on eyewitness
information, at the same time the bloody pictures of people who somehow
survived this massacre are being given. Their stories as eye-witnesses
are also included.

In this way in front of the eyes of the world public a 1992 model
`Massacre' is being presented with witnesses and documents.

The people responsible for the unfortunate events which occurred during
a world war 77 years before are no longer alive. However, the ones
responsible for this massacre are available: They are wandering around
in Karabag and its environs in the form of `Armenian Soldier.'

---end of translated text---

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
From: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Fair Swap
Date: 12 Sep 1992 17:52:43 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, rayes@Snake.mcs.kent.edu (Sandra Rayes) says:

>
>Perhaps, now you can realize why it is so important to Muslims.  Our
>tradition of the Prophet's Isra and Miraj (Journey and Ascension), which
>took place during our holiest month, Ramadhan, left us Muslims with
>the sanctuary of prayer...  This is in the Prophet's life, and later
>on 'Umar ibn al-Khattab visited Jerusalem.

If it is so important, then perhaps you can explain why so few Arab Muslim
leaders visited Al Aksa while it was under Jordanian rule?  I seem to
recall reading that whoever was ruling Saudi Arabia during that period
never visited Al Aksa at all!

It appears to be important only when Jews control Jerusalem and allow free
access to everyone.  When Muslims are in control, and bar Jews from their
holiest sites, nobody seems to care.

-- 
bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Subject: Brendan is a racist anti-semitic bigot (Was: Re: Fair Swap)
Summary: Read Brenden's own words.
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 03:33:14 GMT

	I believe Brendan's own words here condemn him.  I have deleted
most of his article, even though I had planned to reply to it
(possibly even agreeing with him on the relevence of 242).  However,
he has repeated here an anti-semitic theme of dual loyalty amongst
Jews living in the United States in his own words (no source, not that
this matters except here he cannot even attempt to blame someone else).
I am including only the relevant paragraph.

	I am doing this because I believes it throws more fuel on the fire
of Brendan's bigotry with respect to another thread where I have
pointed this out.

In article <1992Sep8.015156.11937@cs.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:

# The word "the" was left out on purpose; no doubt about it.  However,
# I don't believe the same can be said about Jerusalem.  Just because it 
# isn't mentioned by name doesn't mean it was left out.  As to what Goldberg 
# has retrospectively claimed [I am still waiting for someone to provide an 
# actual quotation or reference]: Goldberg did not constitute the Security 
# Council in 1967.  Moreover, his behaviour at the time (more like he 
# represented Israel than like he represented the US) disqualifies him from 
# speaking on behalf of any SC members except himself.  It is well known that 
# almost all the SC members wanted a total withdrawal to pre-1967 borders. 
--

David Makowsky
makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Subject: Re: Israel's peace talks with Syria
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
Organization: Australian National University
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 01:10:58 GMT

In article 9wB@news.cso.uiuc.edu, eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>Read up on Deir Yassin - it isn't as clear cut of a case of massacre as you
>think - there are several good accounts which contradict your version of the
>story. 

T.p.m's resident Kachist, David Makowsky, just announced a party.
I hope you realise that the best evidence of a massacre comes from 
Haganah sources.  In order to discount it, you need to believe in some
fiendish conspiracy involving the Haganah, the Brits and the Red Cross.

> Once again, have you ever heard of Gush Etzion?  Sorry, the arguments
>go both ways here.

Arab irregular forces massacred Jewish civilians and disarmed soldiers
at Gush Etzion.  Allowing for the overdramatisation which one would normally
expect, the accounts in good history books are basically correct.  The
only serious misconception is the role of the Arab Legion (Jordanian 
force commanded by British officers).  I have seen accounts claiming that
the Arab Legion conducted the massacre.  However, the few Jewish survivors
say that they owe their lives to the Arab Legion arriving and stopping it.

>Ed Shnekendorf.

Brendan.


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israel and Kuwait in the Spotlight
Date: 12 Sep 1992 18:03:49 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, hallam@zeus02.desy.de (Phill Hallam-Baker) says:

>
>That is precisely the point at issue. In a democracy where everyone is equal
>there can be no laws supporting cultural hegemony. All this "we are a democracy
>BUT..." business just doesen't wash. You can fool yourself about it but you
>won't fool anyone else.

You don't seem to understand the nature of democracy.  In a democracy, the
majority rules.  Usually, there are limitations on democracy to protect the
rights of various minority groups--that's what our Constitution is all
about--but there is nothing inherently incompatible with having laws which
are not completely religion blind in a democracy.

Actually, the situation in Israel is, in practice, very similar to the
reality here, where the laws are, by and large, framed to the desires of
Christians.  Did you ever claim that we weren't a democracy when almost
every state had blue laws?  Do you believe that the fact that a Christian
holiday, Christmas, has been made into a national holiday makes us
undemocratic?  How about when the military wouldn't allow an orthodox Jew
to wear his yarmulke?  Are we undemocratic because of that?

-- 
bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Subject: Re: Who are the Occupiers?
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
Organization: Australian National University
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 03:25:16 GMT


In article 1132@ennews.eas.asu.edu, makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:
>In article <1992Sep7.022344.27498@cs.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:
># In article 26010@discus.technion.ac.il, davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami) writes:
># >                                                             There was
># >no such thing - they were "Syrians of the South" and no more than that.
># >many Arabs from all over the Arab world Egypt,Sudan,Syria flowed into 
># >the country since the 1910s - they have not the flimisiest right to 
># >sit here on the expense of prosecuted Jews who finally came to rest.
>
># I see, the Massive Recent Immigration myth.  It has been debunked so
># many times that it must take some courage to still believe it.
># Congratulations.
>
>	What takes courage is to repeat this idiocy.  The only way it can
>be debunked is to assume an irregular diet (consisting almost
>exclusively of citrus) that no one could live under.  This diet is
>probably what allowed the irregular reproduction patterns necessary
>which .... is to what leads Brendan to assume that this is a myth.  Of
>course all of these (no matter how many sources they have to back them
>up) are just another way of claiming 2+2=5.  I would not believe a PhD
>im math who told me that no matter how many sources he had.

Or, to put it another way, you believe what you have to believe and no
amount of contrary evidence can shake you.  So be it.  Maybe you are
right: it could be that the Ottomans couldn't distinguish between
Arabs and oranges and so counted both together.

>David Makowsky

Brendan.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: eeb1@ellis.uchicago.edu (e elizabeth bartley)
Subject: Re: Bobby Fischer, chess, Yugoslavia, UN, Israel and the Communists
Reply-To: eeb1@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 00:45:50 GMT

In article <4kd.eu7qp@lab.ntt.jp>
farzin@apollo3.apollo3.ntt.JP (Farzin Mokhtarian) writes:

>Here's a good one.

> #From Japan Times, Sep. 3, 1992:

> #SVETI STEFAN, Yugoslavia (AP) Bobby Fischer not only plans to defy
> #a U.S. government warning not to play a $5 million chess match in
> #Yugoslavia - on Tuesday he spat on it, literally.

Really?  *Literally*?

Now, how did he manage that?      :-)

-- 
"The fools and the wise are equally harmless; it is the half-wise and the
half-foolish who are the most to be feared."       - Goethe

eeb1@ellis.uchicago.edu                              E. Elizabeth Bartley
From: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Fair Swap
Date: 10 Sep 1992 21:34:53 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, ioffe@chen.bgu.ac.il (Alex Ioffe) says:

>Are you sure, Gary?
>Israel signed peace treaty in 1949(The Green Line is a result of it) with all
>countries, but Iraq!
>Peace treaty with Egypt in 1979 was treaty after Milhemet Iom HaKipurim(Iom Kipur War)
>So you're wrong! It's no way to UN partitition of 1947-1948.
>Nick
>
Actually, the agreements in 1949 were not peace treaties, but were
temporary armistice agreements, which were supposed to be superceded by
peace treaties.  Unfortunately, the Arabs all refused to negotiate those
treaties, and the temporary armistice lines remained in effect for
almost twenty years, until 1967.

-- 
bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: adam@sparkle.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: A naive question about the law of return
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 16:26:57 GMT

In article <25703@castle.ed.ac.uk> egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson) writes:
>If my ancestors converted to Judaism, does this give me the right to
>emigrate to Israel? Is this logical? Why (not)?

Your question is poorly phrased.  Anyone has the right to imigrate to
Israel and apply for citizenship.  Jews are granted a special
privledge in the Law of Return, and the Israeli government makes a
special effort to make it possible for Jews anywhere, such as the
former USSR, to emmigrate to Israel more easily.

However, I'll answer the question I think you were asking, which is
"Does a convert, or the decendant of one, have rights under the law of
return?" 

Yes, they do.  The law of return allows people who may or may not be
Jews to "return" to Israel in order to prevent them from being
persecuted for their "Jewishness."

Similarly, a convert could well be persecuted for being a Jew, and the
persecution could in fact be worse, because they (gasp) *chose* to
reject Jesus (or whoever) and become a Jew.

Adam


Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all.  How true that is.
From: bgdv706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (Noam Tractinsky)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: FEC and AIPAC in trouble again
Date: 8 Sep 92 01:50:38 GMT
Organization: University of Texas @ Austin

In article <1992Sep4.191117.29753@das.harvard.edu>, adam@sparkle.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
+> In article <580034@hpwrce.mayfield.hp.com> kingsley@hpwrce.mayfield.hp.com (Kingsley Morse) writes:

+ Seven former U.S. officials are suing the Federal Election Commission (FEC).
+ They're charging that the FEC should have punished the American Israel Public 
+ Affairs Committee (AIPAC), the pro-Israel lobby group, for illegally directing
+ campaign contributions to favored candidates. The FEC turned the other cheek 
+ even through its own general counsel found that AIPAC had probably violated 
+ the law.  The seven include former Under Secretary of State George Ball, 
+ former Illinois Rep. Paul Findley and Andrew Kilgore, former U.S. ambassador 
+ to Qatar.
+> 
+> Allow me to elaborate:
+> 
+> After consipracy theorists, including Paul "They dare to speak out"
+> Findley forced the FEC to investigate AIPAC, the FEC found
+> insufficient evidence of wrongdoing to warrant a lawsuit.  The fact
+> that a counsel "thinks" AIPAC had "probably violated the law" is
+> irrelevant.
+> 
+> The purpose of this lawsuit is to spend millions of taxpayer dollars
+> pursuing the paranoid fantasies of a group of former government
+> employees.
+> 
+> As they should well know, the FEC has no power to punish anyone should
+> their opion be chalenged in court.  What this lawsuit does is give
+> conspiracy theorists further grounds to claim that Israel is the
+> eternal boogieman, by claiming that "the issue is still in court."
+> The FEC spent 4 years examining this case, and did not find enough
+> evidence to go into court.


	In addition it gives Kingsley an excuse to post on tpm.
	He's been doing it for a long time. Always claims and
	charges, never results and verdicts. 

	And, BTW, is this the same ambassador Kilgore from the 
	"Washington Report"?

+> 
+> End of issue, except for those who thought JFK an accurate
+> representation of life.
+> 
+> Adam
+> 
+> 
+> Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu
+> 
+> What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
+> at all.  How true that is.      


Noam
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Subject: Prisoners or Hostages?
Reply-To: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Organization: North Carolina State University
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 18:35:21 GMT


I have been thinking about the recent release of hundreds of
Palestinians from Israeli prisons by Rabin's government. The US media
have portrayed this action as an example of Rabin's goodwill; a positive
gesture. I ask: why were these people in prison? If they are criminals,
why are they being released? If they are not criminals, why are they not
all released?

I can only suspect that these people are some of the many that Israeli
law allows to be detained indefinitely without charges. Are they not
hostages? Are/were they not held for the purpose of suppressing
opposition to occupation? How can Rabin be praised for doing what he
ought to do? If he is still using them as bargaining chips, releasing
them over time as a political gesture, how can Rabin be described as
worthy of praise?

A truly praiseworthy act would be for Rabin to release all such hostages
immediately and get rid of the law which allows them to be made
prisoners arbitrarily and without cause. 

Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)
From: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: A naive question about the law of return
Date: 12 Sep 1992 17:23:34 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, mmokhtar@attmail.com (Mazen Mokhtar) says:

>In article <25703@castle.ed.ac.uk> egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson) writes:
>>If my ancestors converted to Judaism, does this give me the right to
>>emigrate to Israel? Is this logical? Why (not)?
>
>  I would also like to ask a related question:
>
>  If I am one of the children of Israel and my ancestors converted from Judaism
>and accepted Islam, does this give me the right to emigrate to Israel? Is
>this logical?

I believe that if your grandparents were Jewish, then you have the right of
return.

As far as logic, one aspect of the Law of Return is that if Hitler would
have considered you fair game for his gas chambers on account of Jewish
ancestry, then Israel should be a haven for you.

Another side of the coin is that it certainly is logical to welcome to
Israel people who have joined the Jewish people, while not giving special
consideration to those who's ancestors abandoned their people.
-- 
bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu