From: gazit@cs.duke.edu (Hillel Gazit)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: The perception of feminism
Message-Id: <690004549@lear.cs.duke.edu>
Date: 13 Nov 91 03:55:50 GMT
Reply-To: gazit@cs.duke.edu (Hillel)
Organization: The Piranha Club
Status: R


In article <1991Nov08.223304.288882@cs.cmu.edu> jdravk+@cs.cmu.edu (Jeanette Dravk) writes:
>Considering the fact that I have found many, many people (I'd call them
>mainstream) who define feminism as something inherently against men then
>I have to say (quite proudly) that I am NOT a mainstream feminists.

Please tell us what kind of person says something like:

"Y'know .. REAL equality, REAL paybacks to women for being turned into
what they are by society would involve switching places and making men
the 2nd class citizens for the next 3000 years or so."  --  Jeanette Dravk

Please also tell us what prevents you from defining yourself
as a "mainstream feminist".

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Status: O

 > 
 > In article <49810@ricerca.UUCP> jan@oas.olivetti.com writes:
 > >The "custody for women" thing is new, and IMO will be short-lived.  
 > 
 > What makes you think so?
 > 
 > Will you be willing to bet 25% of *your* income on that?
 > 


Send this as private email.

--Cindy

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Too hostile.

--Cindy

 > In article <1991Oct30.153557.580@meteor.wisc.edu> hechtel@meteor.wisc.edu (Leslie Hechtel) writes:
 > >Oh?  I don't know about the affirmative action issue,
 > >     I've never heard of feminist support for priority custody,
 > >     I've never heard of 'choice for women, not for men', unless you
 > >are referring to the fact that pro-choice feminists tend to support the
 > >woman's ultimate decision-making power as to what will happen to her
 > >body,
 > >     and if you'd pick up a copy or two of Ms. magazine (which IMHO is a
 > 
 > Tell me just one thing Ms. "I've never heard about it" Leslie,
 > what's your opinion about such paragraphs:
 > 
 > "In her ground-breaking new book, "The Demon Lover: On the Sexuality of
 > Terrorism," Robin Morgan advances an analysis of terrorism in which the soldier
 > (the State's hero) and the terrorist (the Revolution's hero) are mirror-image
 > expressions of male nature, not human nature.  A feminist writer who was once
 > involved in small, pre-Weathermen, "armed propaganda" groups, Morgan opens a
 > window of thought and action that lets us move out of a male-centered politics
 > of Thanatos - the romance of death - into a feminist politics of Eros, a loving
 > life force. 
 > 
 > The following excerpt, drawn from Chapters 1,5 and 6 of "The Demon Lover,"
 > shows us how maleness itself becomes the weapon of destruction, and how
 > women who seek political change are coerced, deceived, and seduced into
 > fighting for manhood under the illusion that they are ending their own
 > oppression and creating a humane world."
 >                                   ---  Ms. magazine, March 1989
 > 
 > (Aside from the fact that you've never heard any such
 > opinion in Ms. Magazine...)
 > 
 > >Leslie M. Hechtel
 > 
 > Hillel                                               gazit@cs.duke.edu
 > 
 > "Indeed, one of the earliest forms of male bonding must have
 > been the gang rape of one woman by a band of marauding men."
 >                                  -- ("Against Our Will", Susan Brownmiller)

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Status: O

Hostility too high, again.  I don't mind posting your stuff, but not
when you give absolutely no indication that you're listening.

--Cindy

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Status: O


Personal attacks.  I suggest you email this instead.  Or trim out
all personal references.

--Cindy

 > In article <1991Nov19.035730.6756@usl.edu> elg@usl.EDU writes:
 > 
 > >  that they are a bigot. That's one thing that has changed over the past
 > >  thirty years, at least... bigotry is no longer socially acceptable.
 > 
 > Really?!
 > 
 > May be it is time for you to read some popular feminist literature.
 > Bigotry against men is socially acceptable.
 > 
 > >[Hillel describes a very damaging program that put blacks with less
 > >  seniority in charge of whites with more seniority, something
 > >  that didn't help race relations and was very unfair:]
 > 
 > I described a case that reached the Supreme Court, and the Court
 > decided that discrimination against white was OK.  All of this was
 > done when a very liberal president put *pressure* on companies
 > to have *more* women and minorities.
 > 
 > Assuming that most companies did not follow the president, Congress
 > and the Supreme court is a baseless assumption.  Assuming that if
 > the president, Congress and Supreme Court will be liberal they will
 > not do the same thing all over again is another baseless assumption.
 > 
 > >Strange. As I grow older and mature, I grow more "liberal" in the eyes
 > >of many people. Despite my conservative views on foreign policy and
 > 
 > Read sometime the paper _When Prophecy Fails_; 
 > you may recognize yourself.  
 > 
 > >who otherwise have no way to enter the job market). I have to stop and think
 > >about why it is that people like you or David Duke would call me a "liberal",
 > >and have to narrow it down to this: I am educated, and I am concerned.
 > >In the eyes of many, having too much education in areas beyond a narrow
 > >technical area makes one "suspect", because it gives you too much information
 > >about people, how they operate and why they do the things they do. Obviously
 > >a dangerous person, right? And being concerned, acting out on that
 > 
 > Nah.
 > 
 > I call you "liberal" because you are so Politically Correct
 > and so self righteous.
 > 
 > >"When I do it to you, it's fair.
 > > When you do it to me, it's racism."
 > 
 > That's the kind of attitude that *I* call self righteous.
 > 
 > >  Eric Lee Green   P.O. Box 92191  Lafayette, LA 70506 (318) 989-8950
 > >     "It's never too late for a happy childhood" -- The Doctor
 > 
 > It used be aMAZon's signature for a long time, Diane claimed
 > that the actual source is Tom Robbins.
 > 
 > Hillel                                              gazit@cs.duke.edu
 > 
 > "Since the Jews are not a nation, it can hardly be anti-Semitic 
 > to deny that they are."  --  A Berkeley leftist

#########################################################################

Status: O


I'm refusing this because you are not addressing the very points you
quoted.  What you quoted has little relevance to what you said (I
underlined the part I'm talking about).  When some coherence is added,
I'll post it.

--Cindy

 > 
 > In article <1991Nov20.145545.1@fnalno.fnal.gov> holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov writes:
 > 
 > >You missed it _again_, Hillel.  
 > 
 > You talk in patronized tone, and later you complain about my tone.
 > What a nice mixture...
 > >
 > >I must admin, I begin to wonder whether or not you you are
 > >deliberately missing it.  What she said was that women who have
 > >had to overcome socialization against being doctors, lawyers, etc.
 > >are starting out behind in the race.  The presence of people in
 > >hiring and educating positions who believe that women shouldn't be
 > >doctors, lawyers, etc. push them further behind still.
 > >Affirmative Action isn't simply about righting past wrongs, the
    -----------------------------------------------------------====
 > >wrongs are still going on today.
    ===============================
 > 
 > An alternative has been to fight against the people who do the wrong *now*,
   --------------------------------------------------------------------------
 > and make an effort to open an new page.  Y'all prefer to discriminate
 > against people who are not responsible for the wrong which are done
 > now in your fight for "absolute justice."
 > 
 > >> You could choose "civil rights for all or civil war" in the late 70's. 
 > >> You choose the war because you did not give a damn about the
 > >> discrimination you caused.  
 > 
 > >Your tone here belies your stated desire for compromise.
 > 
 > For some reason you prefer to complain about "my tone" and not about
 > what I do/support.  I complain about what y'all support -
 > discrimination against men by affirmative action.
 > 
 > My idea of a compromise is that people will be allowed to express anger,
 > but they will not be allowed to discriminate.  
 > 
 > What is your idea of a compromise, aside from setting the tone
 > of voice of other people?
 > 
 > >Daniel B. Holzman                     | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
 > 
 > Hillel                                            gazit@cs.duke.edu
 > 
 > "Let the Galaxy protect itself as best it can, since it stirred not a whit for
 > my protection when I needed it." --- The Mule (I. Asimov, "Second Foundation")

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> -- d

Hillel                                                  gazit@cs.duke.edu

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