HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Laurie Mann)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: What to Teach Your Children (Was Re:  Homophobia )( Was Re: Homeschooling (spp's response to multiple) posts)
Date: 9 Jan 1993 20:48:00 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer Inc, Marlboro MA
Reply-To: lmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: ansible.pubs.stratus.com

>>In article <1ikg66$rb6@agate.berkeley.edu> spp@zabriskie.berkeley.edu (Steve  
Pope) writes:
>>>>>Laurie Mann writes
>>>>> And having seen some 
>>>>> of the ravings from the "Pro-9" and "Pro-2" groups, I'd be curious 
>>>>> how people can support either of these measures and 
>>>>> not be homophobic.  [...]
>>>>What she said.  I'm quite curious about this myself.
>>>What I'm curious about is how you can assert that you *know* what's in 
>>>the hearts and minds of millions of people based on their support of
>>>a political position.  And not only the majority or vast majority, but
>>>every single one of them.

I can't know for sure.  I can only say I believe that for people to fight
against equal protection on the basis of orientation makes them a homophobe
in my book.  I have seen a few people attempt to argue this "rationally"
in r.a.b., but I don't find the arguments very convincing.

(BTW, Tony, I do appreciate your accurate quoting here.  Thanks.)

>Laura Mollett writes:
>I dislike too much government interference in
>the private sector.  I think the government is running way out of line in
>the name of protecting the most innocent of our society - our children...to
>the point where I sometimes wonder if I'm going to be allowed to raise my
>children within my own beliefs.  Protecting children is a very
>emotion-charged issue, but I worry that allowing the government to interfere
>(even in cases where it is necessary) leads some to believe that the 
>government has the _right_ to tell parents what to teach their children, what
>to believe, etc.  It could easily get out of hand (imo). 

Where has the government been running "way out of line?"  If anything,
I think the government has often let vocal minorities get away with
murder in terms of public education.  We have an increasingly
mediocre public school system, and I'd put the blame on middle
management bloat, crime in the cities, and much of the textbook
industry paying too much attention to the religious and PC fanatics.

There are many biology "textbooks" that don't cover either sex ed or
evolution. 

There are many history textbooks who try so hard to not offend anyone
that historical facts (as opposed to conjecture) are completely
ignored.

*  In Germany they first came for the Communists, and I didn't speak *
*  because I wasn't a Communist.  Then they came for the Jews, and I *
*  didn't speak because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade *
* unionists, and I didn't speak because I wasn't a trade unionist... *
*Then they came for me--and by that time no one was left to speak up.*
*  Rev. Martin Niemoeller     [Why to March on Washington in April]  *
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: s1mbm@isuvax.iastate.edu (michael bruce mcdonald)
Subject: Re: Same difference
Reply-To: s1mbm@isuvax.iastate.edu
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 02:05:29 GMT

In article <1993Jan8.202453.16407@eff.org>, mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin) writes:
>In article <1ik82lINN4qb@morrow.stanford.edu> francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir) writes:
>>All this talk of difference feminism has reminded me that I had promised
>>to read *DIFFERENCE ENGINE* in 1992, and I did not. So, may I reopen
>>discussion to a short thread on this book? Who wrote it, &c. It did
>>occur to me that Ada Lovelace could herself be described as a difference
>>engine in modern terms. So, do I still want to read it?
>
>I recommend it highly, Francis. You may also be interested
>in Betty A. Toole's _Ada, The Enchantress of Numbers, A Selection from the
>Letters of Lord Byron's Daughter and Her Description of the First
>Computer_. See Howard Rheingold's review in the summer, 1992 issue of
>Whole Earth Review.
>
>
>--Mike
>
As much as I hate to disagree with Mike, I'm writing this to urge you to
save yourself a disappointing experience.  I am generally a bit fan of both
Gibson and Sterling, but *Difference Engine* is, quite simply, a lousy book.

mbm

>
>-- 
>Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution
>mnemonic@eff.org| The only one that's coming."
>(617) 864-0665  |                           
>EFF, Cambridge  |                   --Robert Frost
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Paglia
Date: 9 Jan 93 00:23:38 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1993Jan9.002338.11686
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <JMC.93Jan8161411@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU writes:
>You have to understand that Margaret Thatcher doesn't count as
>a "woman prime minister", because she didn't get that office
>via the approved method: affirmative action.  Therefore, attacks
>on her should not be resented by women.

Undoubtedly we're missing the inflection and twinkle in your eye
which makes a line like this droll rather than merely offensive.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: echristo@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Elena A Christofides)
Subject: Re: Paglia (was: Cross-Writing)
Keywords: Paglia (again!)
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 00:02:17 GMT


OK, My 2 cents worth, which I know don't amount to a whole hill o'beans.
(Unless they're Jamaican Blue!)

[stuff deleted]

>>
>>Not only is she closer to the truth, but she is far more "empowering" to
>>women than most feminists are.
>>
>>Heather
>

Here Here!!

>    How can knuckling under to a purported biological determinism
>ever be empowering to anyone?  Holding that men "just can't help themselves"
>(which is precisely what Paglia's position amounts to) rather gives the
                                            ^^^^^^^
>lie to Heather's putative liberalism (cf. the exchange with Steve Dyer).
>
>Cordially,
>
>Michael S. Rooney


The one major reason I agree with much of Paglia's sentiments center around her
treatment of the "empowerment of women" and how modern day feminists have done 
more to degrade and diminish the power of the woman.
How can I say that as a woman?
Well, because as a woman, I'm more offended by a woman who upon incurring some
terrible (verbal) assault (I DON'T MEAN RAPE!) by a member of the opposite sex,
say in the workplace, like "Hey baby, come over here and show off your hot
 legs!" Runs off to some authority crying "BooHooHoo, he said BAD things to
me!" Instead of just kicking him in the shins and telling him to go to hell!"

There's certainly more to this argument than I'm bringing up here, and this is 
NO ENDORSEMENT for sexual harassement.

I simply am sick and tired of all this BooHoo-ing by the "Oh, I'm so hurt
by all this male-oriented stuff in society" crowd. Look, life is tough.
 When it gets rough, you fight back, you don't go groveling back for more.
 even my dog knew better than that. When she got shoved around too much, what
 did she do? She took a BIG, FAT CHUNK out of your hand!

To me, this is the essence of Paglia's beef with today's feminists and why SHE
is much more empowering to women, then the feminists are.


Elena      "just my $.02 worth"
From: dsy@psych.toronto.edu (Desiree Sy)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Nancy Drew Fans?
Date: 5 Jan 93 15:29:13 GMT
Organization: Department of Psychology, University of Toronto

In article <YfGNs5600WBM81eFw5@andrew.cmu.edu> lc1r+@andrew.cmu.edu (Lori Cole) writes:
>I'm trying, unsuccessfully, to remember where I recently read a piece on
>the Nancy Drew series, comparing the revised versions to the original. 
>The author maintained that the revisions had made Nancy a much less
>independent character than she had originally been depicted!  She put
>sections from unrevised and revised versions side by side so that the
>reader could compare the differences.

Ms. magazine ran an article on this one or two issues ago.  Also,
since the original books have been re-released (I saw some copies
at the Smithsonian bookstore last year, and I imagine they're all
over the place in the U.S.), a female author of mysteries (I seem
to remember Sara Paretsky, but that may be wrong) wrote the intro
to the first one.

-desiree
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: s1mbm@isuvax.iastate.edu (michael bruce mcdonald)
Subject: Paglia (again)
Reply-To: s1mbm@isuvax.iastate.edu
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 04:44:29 GMT

On "Later with Bob Costas," Paglia said that once a woman consents to go
into a man's room in the course of a date, she basically has no business
accusing him of rape if he forces himself on her.  Given the nature of
male sexuality, Paglia said, the woman's agreement to enter the man's room
is tantamount to consenting to sex.

While watching the show and reflecting on it later, it wasn't just the
viewpoint Paglia expressed that I found reprehensible, but the smirking,
no-room-for-disagreement attitude which attended her articulation of these
views.

I wonder how Mike and Heather will dance around *this* post.  I would have
more respect for you folks if you weren't so avid to defend, seemingly,
*everything* Paglia has to say.

michael mcdonald
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu
Subject: RE: Paglia (was: Cross-Writing)
Organization: Clark University
Date: 7 JAN 93 00:31:57 GMT

I wrote:

>>It seems to me like she's talking about herself (I remember the cancelled 
>>preface as being very personal in nature) and extrapolating her experiences
>>to women in general. 

Mike Godwin wrote:

>Not in that particular passage in her preface, IMHO. 

Sorry, I think you're wrong.

>I've heard this argument before in defense of Paglia, but I can't quite 
>accept it. (You should know that on the WELL I'm considered to be a 
>fanatical Paglia defender by the politically correct contingent.) 

You're quite the devil's advocate, Mike.

>She's no "difference feminist," 

I'm not sure what you mean by "difference feminist".  She'd be classified as
an "equality feminist" rather than a "gender feminist".

>>she doesn't say anywhere that women can't learn to play by men's rules. 

>I interpret her as saying that it's harder for women to do so, and that 
>the difficulty lies in biology. 

Well, as I said, I can't find any clear indication that she's saying this. 

>>In this discussion, you were the one who lumped her with them.  That's why 
>>we're talking about her right now. 

>Mea culpa. But I've recanted since then. 

You have?  I must have missed that.

>I thought you were saying that Paglia's claim 
>was that women who write are attempting to do something that men do. 

I *am* saying that.  That's why I quoted the "Construction is a sublime male
poetry" passage.  

>If you are saying Paglia is saying that women who write are *succeeding* 
>at doing what men do, I'd agree that the propositions are inconsistent, 
>but I'd disagree that this is a correct reading of Paglia. 

I don't remember reading in any of her books, or hearing her say in any of
her interviews, that women are incapable of succeeding at male pursuits such
as writing.  I don't think she believes that, especially given her treatment
of women writers such as Emily Bronte and Emily Dickinson.  However, if you
can show me otherwise, I'm willing to change my opinion.

Heather
HHENDERSON@vax.clarku.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: athena@cheshire.oxy.edu (Staci Ann Waldroop)
Subject: Re: Education and the Environment by Gregory A. Smith
Organization: Occidental College, Los Angeles, CA 90041 USA.
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 03:52:12 GMT

>Point the Seventh
>If I did want my children to become carbon copies of me, I might
>do better choosing to send them to public schools than homeschooling
>them. Since I was schooled in a public school, I mean. I was
>valedictorian of my high school graduating class of about 800.
>Warren Central High School in suburban Indianapolis was always
>in the top couple by any academic measure in the state. I.e.,
>I surmise I had some of the best that ordinary American public schools
>had to offer. After graduating in honors physics from Purdue, I won a
>Churchill Scholarship for a year of postgraduate study at Cambridge.
>It was during this year (1982-83, I was 22) I read _Tale of Two Cities_
>for the first time. *This was my introduction to the French
>Revolution.* And that is my complaint about American public schools
>in a nutshell. Now, mind you, it was *I* who wasted those 20
>years in front of a television set learning next to nothing, but my point
>is that public schools let me get away with it swimmingly. It is
>precisely because I do not want my children ground into mind-numbing
>mediocrity that I want to keep them from the public schools.
>
>And I see *nothing* in an environmental education program other
>than a proposal for more time spent away from actually learning
>anything.
>
>              Mike Morris
>      (msmorris@watsci.uwaterloo.ca)
>
>
You say that the educational system is bad.  I ask you...WHAT ARE YOU DOING 
ABOUT IT???  If you turn away from the system society has set up, then all you
are doing is burying your head in the sand!  If something is wrong, then you
should do everything in your power to change it...if you do anything less than
you have no right to complain. It is not *just* the school system that is at 
fault here.  Parents must do their part, as I believe mine did (I was reading 
Dickens for fun and doing research on more than one revolution before the 
sixth grade...)  Even if you keep your kids out of school, you should get 
involved in your community!  One day your kid's kids might have to go to that 
school- they might not have the luxery of teaching their kids at home.  It is
time that the people of this country learn to take responsibility for the 
world in which they live and the world that they leave for the next generation.

		Staci Waldroop
		Occidental College
		Los Angeles, CA
		athena@cheshire.oxy.edu


Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: gersh@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (John R. Gersh)
Subject: Re: Shouting at robots
Summary: Nothing new under the sun
Organization: Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Lab
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 93 14:26:18 GMT

In article <JMC.93Jan2141039@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> John McCarthy writes:

	[Asks us to try viewing with alarm the revoltin' development
	of children shouting at toy robots, which turn out to be not
	all that obedient when shouted at.]

But this is what people always do! This situation just adds a
different sensory modality. Consider "shouting" to be simply emphatic
use of the appropriate communication medium - LIKE THIS, WHICH WE SEE
ALL THE TIME.

Where do people commonly shout (vainly) at robots? While waiting for 
elevators, of course. If the elevator doesn't come quickly enough, push 
the button again and again, harder and harder! What is this behavior if 
not shouting at a robot - one which is, indeed, not very obedient when 
shouted at?





---------------------------------------------------------------------
John Gersh                                      John_Gersh@jhuapl.edu
The Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory
Johns Hopkins Rd., Laurel, MD 20723		       (301) 953-5503
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: jk@panix.com (Jim Kalb)
Subject: Re: Paul Johnson (was Paglia)
Organization: Institute for the Human Sciences
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 15:24:49 GMT

mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin) writes:

>In article <JMC.93Jan8162455@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU writes:
>>It seems to me that when someone writes about how people ought to
>>live, how he lives is relevant to evaluating the ideas.
>
>If it is relevant, that relevance has nothing to do with logic. There is
>no logical connection between the truth value of a statement and the
>biography of the person who makes it. (There may be a causal connection,
>of course, but that does not help us evaluate the worth of the statement.)

It's true that people who live very badly sometimes give excellent
advice, and that people sometimes say really stupid things about 
activities (painting pictures, say) that they're very good at.  But it
does seem rational to pay more attention to what people say about
activities at which they excel than about activities they habitually
bungle.

I suppose the reason is that the criteria for evaluating a statement
like "A good life is X" or "Milton is a better poet than Rod McKuen"
can't be made altogether explicit.  Whether such a statement seems
satisfactory to us depends in part on the perceptions, attitudes and
habits that we have developed in dealing with the subject matter of the
statement.  Such things differ from person to person and change through
experience.

It seems to follow that if we believe that such statements can be
objectively true or false, it can pay to look for an expert who has
perceptions, attitudes and habits that enable him to speak with some
authority as to their truth or falsity.  Since someone who lives a good
life or writes good poetry has at least implicit expertise as to ethics
or poetics, it's rational to feel more confidence in relying on his
explicit views than on those of his contrary.

>Does the fact that some priests have been charged with molesting
>children prove that Christianity's prescriptions are worthless, since
>the priests were unable to live according to the doctrines they
>preached?

If molesting children were characteristic of Christians it certainly
would tell against the value of Christianity's prescriptions.
-- 
Jim Kalb (jk@panix.com)
"We are, I know not how, double in ourselves, so that what we believe we
disbelieve, and cannot rid ourselves of what we condemn."  (Montaigne)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: SF + PC
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 07:09:10 GMT

jahb@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (JENNIFER A. HEISE):
>On the other hand, today's science degree serves one useful purpose for the
>rest of us: it certifies that the holder thereof cannot read, write or reason,
>and should therefore be provided with secretaries, lab managers, and graduate
>assistants to do these things for said holder.

Fairly early in the CS curriculum, one of our professors announced that
he had two pieces of invaluable advice to prepare us for the world Out There:

1. Learn to type.

2. Don't let *anyone* know you can type.

-----
Dani Zweig
dani@netcom.com

  Watership Down:  
  You've read the book.  You've seen the movie.  Now eat the stew!


Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu
Subject: RE:  Celebrating McGonagall
Organization: Clark University
Date: 8 JAN 93 19:45:23 GMT

Lynsey Gedye writes, of McGonagall:

>  I would also recommend consuming a fresh bottle of Stone's Green
>  Ginger Wine to really assist giving emphasis to the subtle nuances.
>  A cold winters night, roaring fire, friends - what else do you need?

Well, we did not have a roaring fire on the evening of our First Annual
McGonagall Night, but we did have haggis, roast beast, clapshot and
sprouts, accompanied by a robust Cabernet Sauvignon; followed by oatcakes
and a rather assertive Stilton.  There were two desserts: a messy trifle
with several different fruits, etc. and, in McGonagall's honor, DUNDEE
CAKE, of bricklike density but pleasant flavor.  Before commencing the
readings, however (the Tay Bridge trilogy), we all partook of copious
amounts of Laphroaig and Glenfiddich, which did indeed improve our
appreciation of the works of Dundee's Poet and Tragedian.  His shade,
though, was probably disturbed, since he was a teetotaller himself and
often spoke out against the evils of Strong Drink.

Heather
HHENDERSON@vax.clarku.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: chucks@uars2.acd.ucar.edu (Chuck Smythe)
Subject: Re: Books I Got For Xmas
Organization: Ntl Center for Atmospheric Research, Atmospheric Chemistry
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 21:01:27 GMT

Slim haul this year - 

Edgar Rice Burroughs, _The Land that Time Forgot_ or title to that effect, and
Dennis Overby, _Lonely Hearts of the Cosmos_, one of the better pieces of
 		pop. science I've seen lately.  

BTW, has anyone else been following Masterpiece Theater?  Their Jeeves and
Bertie is great fun, though Jeeves is younger (and Bertie older) than I'd
visualized.

			Chuck Smythe

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: Shouting at robots
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 17:28:03 GMT

In article <1993Jan5.213740.15156@ecrc.de> sanjiva@ecrc.de (Sanjiva Prasad) writes:

>>A $25 prize is offered for the best posting in the next week viewing
>>this development with alarm, i.e. children shouting at robots.
>
>	"Speak Gently", tell your little boy, 
>	When he shouts at his robot's steering.
>	And to ask instead if it doesn't obey
>	"R U R'd of 'earing?"

John, if you don't give Sanjiva the $25, there is simply no justice.


--Mike



-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution
mnemonic@eff.org| The only one that's coming."
(617) 864-0665  |                           
EFF, Cambridge  |                   --Robert Frost 
Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:24721 rec.arts.poems:13612
From: ccsdgdc@sunlab1.bath.ac.uk (Douglas Clark)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,rec.arts.poems
Subject: A poem for Camille Paglia
Date: 12 Jan 93 09:39:05 GMT
Organization: Bath University Computing Services, UK

The Creation of the World

One night, a woman dreamt a world.
She dreamt the grasslands and the forests.
She dreamt the mountains and the oceans.
She dreamt the animals and the fish.
In the morning, she shared her dream
With her husband. All day, her husband
Bacame more and more jealous of his wife's dream.

That night, the man dreamt another world.
He dreamt the cultivation of the grasslands
And the chopping down of the forests.
He dreamt the razing of the mountains
And the polluting of the oceans.
He dreamt the capture of the animals and the fish.
In the morning, he said nothing to his wife.
He just went outside to begin.

This marvellous poem is not my work, unfortunately.
It was written by Gordon Meade. It may be found
in Issue No. 5 (November, 1992) of the poetry 
magazine Northlight, edited by Anne Thomson
at 136 Byres Road, Hillhead, Glasgow G12 8TD.
Reading the Paglia discussion yesterday I thought
it appropriate. Holderlin's translation of the
famous chorus from Sophocles' Antigone is also
relevant (See Heidegger's discussion).
Particular mention might be made of Warminki's
paper in Yale French Studies v.77, 1990
which a friend sent me.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: msmorris@watsci.UWaterloo.ca (Mike Morris)
Subject: Re: Homophobia (really not about  Homeschooling)
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 16:24:57 GMT

                                   Friday, the 8th of January, 1993

Steve Dyer writes, regarding me:
  No, it just means he's a clueless "I've got mine" white Protestant het boy
  for whom all forms of marginalization are incomprehensible abstractions;
  something to argue idly about while wasting time on the net.  It's nauseating.

I think you are incorrect on a number of counts.

                 Mike Morris
         (msmorris@watsci.uwaterloo.ca)

From: kyle@hpspdla.spd.HP.COM (Kyle Karnosh)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 17:47:03 GMT
Subject: Re: Reading as an addiction (Was: 92 in rabreview)
Organization: HP Stanford Park - Palo Alto, CA