HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Never again. How soon we forget.
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 15:48:08 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA

In article <BsxFx1.Huw@news.cso.uiuc.edu> bfrg9732@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Brian F. Redman) writes:
>kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) writes:
>
>>>>>>	This is pathetic, and somewhat sick.
>>>>	2) It wasn't in repsonse to what you posted, but what Brian did.
>>>
>>>  I know that, but the questions are still valid and the "pro-
>>>  interventionists" are still evading them.  
>
>>Here's some solid political advice, certain to assuage the concerns of the
>>poltical left - there is clearly only one policy which we can adopt, and
>>that is to endlessly pontificate about how to help, in the hope everyone
>>will be dead before we have to get off our ass and actually _do_ anything.

  Nonsense.  We don't have to endlessly pontificate about things; but
  we DO have to answer the questions I posed.   It is idiotic to go into 
  a military conflict without well-defined military goals and a clear
  idea of what resources will be required to accomplish them.  Rather
  than pontificating, yourself, why don't you address some of these
  issues?

>Yugoslavian guerrillas between 1945 and 1953. "In a half century of
>wandering around battlefieds, I've never met fiercer fighters. They
>could easily suck the United States into a ground war -- hook, line
>and body bag." writes Hackworth.

  It should be noted that Hackworth also expressed deep reservations
  about the Gulf War.   What's different in this conflict is that
  while the Gulf War had its Hackworth's who predicted dire military
  results, it also had plenty of military men who were confident
  of our success.  I have heard NO significant military authorities
  express any confidence about this situation.   Kuwait was a 
  military problem -- occupying and controlling territory on an
  open plain ideal for high-tech warfare.  We had no political goals
  there, although some people think that we should have.   Yugoslavia
  is a political and ethnic problem and it is unclear that a military
  solution is possible, or what form it would take.  But I have
  repeatedly asked proponents on the net to TELL us what form 
  it would take and they have just endlessly pontificated.


>Hackworth writes that "...Yugoslavia is an impossible mission." Drawing
>on his lifetime of military experience he warns that military 
>involvement in the region is tantamount to getting dragged into
>an unwinnable war. "...Yugoslavian soldiers, irregular or regular,
>are the meanest mothers in the valley of death and the last tigers
>the United States ever wants to try to tame."

---peter





Xref: sparky alt.activism:14777 alt.individualism:5237 talk.politics.misc:39549
From: fischer@li.serum.kodak.com (Chris Fischer (x39613))
Subject: RESOURCE: voting records
Organization: Eastman Kodak
Distribution: usa 
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 11:39:49 GMT


Check this out, a real activist resource in alt.activism.  And from
a "right wing" (libertarian actually) reader too.

This is from the Christian Science Monitor 8/3/92.  I would type in the
whole thing but it is copyrighted, so I will paraphrase/excerpt:

"Project Vote Smart run by the recently formed Center for National
Independence in Politics whose aim is to give voters as much 
FACTUAL information as possible about every candidate running
in the general elections for federal office"

The toll-free number gives:

candidate biographies
sources of financing
issue positions
voting records

Based on information from 60 organizations on all sides of the
political spectrum.  For a $3 fee, a written transript is 
available.

The article contains supportive quotes from various right
and left wing groups.  

The number is: 1(800)786-6885


Editorial Note: Seems like a great idea.

-- 
Chris Fischer (fischer@serum.clpd.KODAK.com)
They never even listen to my opinion, why would they make it policy?
"The healthy gum tissue of our liberties are being eaten away by the 
 periodontal disease of government regulation." - D.Barry
From: Jonathan Prince <jprince@igc.org>
Newsgroups: alt.activism
Date: 13 Aug 92 15:08 PDT
Subject: Re: Boutros-Ghali's Blueprint for UN Wo
Nf-ID: #R:126-PCNews-124beta@ccs.covici.co:-497513779:cdp:1296500283:000:165
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!jprince    Aug 13 15:08:00 1992


VERY INTERESTING ARTICLE
BUT ISNT THE EXECUTIVE INTELLIGENCE REVIEW
A LAROUCHE PUBLICATION?
IF IT IS, IT PLACES THE ARTICLE IN A DIFFERENT CONTEXT.
-JONATHAN PRINCE
From: Dorothy Morse <dmorse@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: alt.activism
Date: 18 Aug 92 18:39 PDT
Subject: Somalia: Big Fax AttacK!!
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1296500292:000:1452
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!dmorse    Aug 18 18:39:00 1992


From: Dorothy Morse <dmorse>
Subject: Somalia: Big Fax AttacK!!

/* Written  6:32 pm  Aug 18, 1992 by dmorse in cdp:soc.cult.afric */
/* ---------- "Somalia: Big Fax AttacK!!" ---------- */
Bernhard has arranged another free fax number through SUNET.  This goes to
James Kunder, director of the US Office of Foreign Disaster Assistance.

the number is:

    James_Kunder@009f12026475269.fax.sunet.se


It's clear that Internet people are having great success with these free faxes!
Getting those planes in the air and, let's hope, keeping them going!
A number of people on IGC --peacenet, etc.--have found that the free
fax number doesn't work for them with the ordinary faxing method. We've
talked to support about this.  They say it should work, and we hope we'll
be using the free system soon.

Peter Mwaniki asked about the Republican Convention.  The fax number for
the general manager of the convention is 713-737-1096.  A very earnest
tone is in order here, since some of the administration, I fear, will be
looking for a chance to call us "Somalia wackos," or some other term to
belittle us and our concerns.

Finally, the French minister of health and humanitarian affairs, who recently
visited Somalia and was absolutely horrorstruck, has clearly influenced the
French government.  NPR says France will deliver food (I believe the amount
was 2000 tons) from Djibouti this week.  Djibout is right next to Somalia--
food should get there fast.

Xref: sparky alt.activism:15174 alt.politics.elections:11098 alt.politics.bush:2305 misc.headlines:5788 talk.politics.misc:40909
From: harelb@MATH.CORNELL.EDU (misc.activism.progressive co-moderator)
Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.politics.elections,alt.politics.bush,misc.headlines,talk.politics.misc
Subject: "STRONG FAMILY VALUES" (VI)
Date: 20 Aug 92 23:15:14 GMT
Followup-To: alt.politics.elections
Organization: misc.activism.progressive on UseNet ; ACTIV-L@UMCVMB

The Decline of America: "We're Number One" in Childhood Poverty

        =====================================================
        Percentage of children living in poverty 1984-1987:(3)
        =====================================================

               ------------------------------
                                     CHILDREN          
               COUNTRY              IN POVERTY         
               ------------------------------

               United States           20.4            

[twice the second highest:]

               Canada                   9.3            
               Australia                9.0            

               United Kingdom           7.4            

               France                   4.6            

               Netherands               3.8            
               Germany                  2.8            
               Sweden                   1.6            

Source: Timothy M. Smeeding, "U.S. Poverty and Income Security Policy
in a Cross National Perspective, October 1991, Luxembourg, October,
1991, Luxembourg Income Study, working paper 70.

******************************************************************

From page 74 of:

 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  
_We're Number One, Where America Stands -- and Falls -- in the New    
World Order_ by Andrew L Shapiro.   

New York, May 1992, Vintage Books, a division of Random House.   
$10 paperback. ISBN 0-679-73893-2  
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -   

    "America is becoming a land of private greed and public squalor.   
    This book is an indispensable road map through the wreckage. The   
    facts it reveals will startle you. They may depress you. But   
    ideally they'll fire you up to help rebuild this nation."   

                        -Robert B. Reich, author of The Work of Nations   

******************************************************************
Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.politics.elections
From: atfurman@cup.portal.com (A T Furman)
Newsgroups: alt.activism
Subject: Re: ELECTIONS 92: N.A.P./Fulani: A "Deceptive Cult"
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 92 02:45:14 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
  <64008@cup.portal.com>


In my posting I state:

>This is the reductio ad absurdum of tax-funded politics.  If the
>current crop of "progressives" had gotten their way in Germany in
>the 1920's, the German Jews would have been paying taxes to cover
>Hitler's campaign expenses (he ran for President of Germany in March
>of 1922 and got 11 million votes).

Actually, it was 1932.


    Alan T. Furman         | VOTE LIBERTARIAN!!  Marrou/Lord in 92!!
---------------------------+----------------------------------------
  atfurman@cup.portal.sig  |   (800)682-1776 for more information
Newsgroups: alt.activism,talk.politics.misc,misc.headlines
From: maxwell@fnalc.fnal.gov
Subject: Re: Never again.  How soon we forget.
Organization: What does *this* button do!?
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 16:49:09 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalc.fnal.gov
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1992Aug12.235831.898@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>, kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) writes:
> In article <1992Aug12.144041.1@fnalf.fnal.gov> maxwell@fnalf.fnal.gov writes:
[...]

>>It's not a case of saying "sorry, you're just not worth it".  It *is* a case of
>>saying, to Uncle Sam and his bootlicks (ABC-CBS-NBC-PBS-CNN) :"You are liars.
>>You have been caught lying to us time and time and time again. Why should we
>>trust you?" 
> 
> ...and, while saying it, know with a certainty that women and children, and
> other non-combatants, are being killed wantonly. I can see how that would
> appeal to some.
 
You've just articulated justification for US military intervention in every
civil war in the world.  What makes the B-H/S situation special? 

regards.max
Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.individualism,talk.politics.misc
From: fulton@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Ben Fulton)
Subject: Re: Age of Consent
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 15:43:08 GMT

In <1992Aug12.140306.6303@fig.citib.com> glp@fig.citib.com (Greg Parkinson) writes:

>So an emancipated "child" could choose to have a sexual 
>relationship with an adult?  

>This stuff is not far off of what NAMBLA proposes.  Perhaps
>Cr*m*r will now start choose to rave about how libertarians
>advocate child molestation?  

Big 'L' Libertarians, please.  I support 90% of the Libertarian platform,
but the children's rights plank is way off base.  Those who are incapable
of personal responsibility need protection.

ben "libertarian"
fulton@copper.ucs.indiana.edu
will be president for food
Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.discrimination,talk.abortion
From: Larry Margolis <margoli@watson.ibm.com>
Subject: Re: FOCA: And I quote.....
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 17:14:37 GMT
Reply-To: margoli@watson.ibm.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: The Village Waterbed
Followup-To: talk.abortion

In  <1992Aug18.134606.16685@ncsu.edu>  dsholtsi@csl36h.csl.ncsu.edu (Doug Holtsinger) writes:
> Oh hey Mr. Margolis, look here at the original post.  Mr. Anderson
> incorrectly states that "third trimester" abortions are "post-viability"
> abortions.

But I thought you said that viability (ignoring the enormous cost of keeping
these preemies alive) was *before* the third trimester?  So how is it
innacurate to state that "third trimester" abortions are "post-viability"
abortions?  If you wanted to claim that there was an implication that
*only* third-tri abortions were post viability, you might have a point.
But what you stated above is clearly incorrect.

> And in this country, we do have virtual abortion-on-demand throughout
> the term of pregnancy.

This statement is not correct.  Perhaps you should "look here at the original
post".

> In article <1992Aug16.232711.3481@anasazi.com>
> john@anasazi.com writes:
> >
> >In article <Aug11.054758.30153@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> sa114984@longs.LANCE.Co
> >]In article <1992Aug6.123139.16032@hemlock.cray.com>,
> >]rja@redwood26.cray.com (Russ Anderson) writes:
> >]>
> >]> In article <Aug06.053904.68099@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>,
> >]sa114984@longs.LANCE.ColoState.EDU (Steven Arnold) writes:
> >]
> >]> Given that there are only 3 doctors in the US perform 3rd trimester (post-
> >]> viability) abortions in the US, and then only for medical reasons (source:
> >]> 60 Minutes), I doubt your claim that "what we end up with is virtual
> >]> abortion-on-demand from conception to birth".

Given that there are only 3 doctors in the US that perform 3rd trimester
abortions, and then only for medical reasons, it seems obvious to any
reasonably intelligent observer that "abortion-on-demand throughout
the term of pregnancy" is simply a myth.

For you to claim otherwise, you'd have to document for us some
third-trimester abortions for other than medical reasons.

Larry Margolis, MARGOLI@YKTVMV (Bitnet), margoli@watson.IBM.com (Internet)
Newsgroups: alt.activism,talk.politics.misc
From: maxwell@fnalf.fnal.gov
Subject: Re: Never again.  How soon we forget.
Organization: What does *this* button do!?
Followup-To: alt.activism,talk.politics.misc
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 20:40:41 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalf.fnal.gov
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1992Aug10.172122.3344@desire.wright.edu>, demon@desire.wright.edu (Stupendous Man) writes:
> In article <Bsrx59.I22@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, bfrg9732@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Brian F. Redman) writes:
>> 
>> More war drums from the U.S. Ministry of Propaganda. Maybe, maybe, 
>> there really are concentration camps in Serbia, etcetera. All I have 
>> seen so far on the mass media broadcasts are war prisoners, some of 
>> them looking quite skinny. Perhaps this *is* proof that there is a new 
>> holocaust going on in what used to be Yugoslavia.
>> 
>> But why is it automatically up to us to go in there and clean it up? 
>> We already went in there and fought the bad guys during Desert Shield 
>> Desert Storm. Isn't it somebody elses turn now? Why isn't China for 
>> example feeling that it is its bounden duty to go to Serbia and put a 
>> stop to this new evil? Isn't it their turn now? Why is it us that has 
>> to go in there?
> 
> 
> 	This is pathetic, and somewhat sick.
> 
> 	See the "anti-war" crowd.
> 
> 	See them deny.
> 
> 	See them say peace at any price.
> 
> 	See them say "it's not worth it".
> 
> 	Tell it to the Jews.
> 
> 	Tell it to the Gypsies.
> 
> 	Tell it to the Poles.
> 
> 	Tell it to the Slovaks.
> 
> 	Tell it to the Czechs.
> 
> 	Tell it to the homosexuals.
> 
> 	Sorry, "you're just not worth it".


Well, for me, the point is that the American News Media *lies* and *distorts*
what it reports.

I mentioned the Kuwaiti baby incubator scam in a previous post.  How come it
took, what- weeks (months?) before the media finally saw fit to tell us that 
"BTW...that nurse? She's the daughter of a Kuwaiti diplomat...and uh...there
never were n-hundred baby incubators..."


Of course, the Iraqi woman-- the one who ranted so eloquently, in understandable
english, after her neighborhood was fragged-- was i.d.'d as an employee of the 
Iraqi regime the next day.

I don't for a minute doubt that the Serbians *might* have death camps. I *am*
suspicious as hell when the news comes out so one-sided.  

It's not a case of saying "sorry, you're just not worth it".  It *is* a case of
saying, to Uncle Sam and his bootlicks (ABC-CBS-NBC-PBS-CNN) :"You are liars.
You have been caught lying to us time and time and time again. Why should we
trust you?" 

At least they could use vaseline...

Do you really have such a blind trust in the talking heads?

regards.max

Xref: sparky alt.activism:15116 misc.headlines:5757 talk.politics.misc:40717 talk.environment:3296 alt.save.the.earth:1033
From: robinc@bnr.ca (Robin Collins)
Newsgroups: alt.activism
Subject: Re: More War Drums
Keywords: treachery trickery deceit deception
Date: 17 Aug 92 20:50:55 GMT
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa, Canada

In article <BstruD.xE@news.cso.uiuc.edu> bfrg9732@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Brian F. Redman) writes:
>kd1hz@anomaly.sbs.risc.net (Michael P. Deignan (KD1HZ)) writes:
>
>>bfrg9732@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Brian F. Redman) writes:
>
>>>More war drums from the U.S. Ministry of Propaganda.
>
>>Wow. I didn't realize we had one. Perhaps you can direct us with the
>>director's name? How much funding in the budget they receive?
>
>I don't know the director, but it does not seem far fetched to
>me that there is a definite connection between the fact that U.S.
>corporations subsidize the networks through payments for
>commercial air time and a subsequent influence on what gets...
 





The interesting part is that there is no ministry of propaganda
and yet the media operate as if there was one.


Frank. 
Xref: sparky alt.activism:15115 misc.headlines:5756 talk.politics.misc:40716
From: wix@eskimo.celestial.com (Dennis Wicks)
Subject: Re: SWAT team kills innocent woman in No-Knock raid.
Keywords: SWAT police no-knock raid death
Organization: >>> Eskimo North (206)-FOR-EVER <<<
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 02:31:48 GMT

In article <1992Aug17.061804.18818@genie.slhs.udel.edu> starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr) writes:
>In article <1992Aug16.204906.11264@eskimo.celestial.com> wix@eskimo.celestial.com (Dennis Wicks) writes:
>}This is indeed a tradgedy, and someone should pay for it, and I don't
>}mean monetarily, and this practice should be stopped.
>
>Hey!  Don't knock monetary restitution!  While perhaps insufficient, it can
>only help if the individual(s) responsible support those orphaned by their
>misconduct.
>
>}The people at fault were far removed from the action.  The investigators
>}who decided to act on the tip, the watch commander and other ranking
>}officials in the law enforcement agencies that let the tips be acted
>}on without further investigation, and possibly most of all, the 
>}judges that issued the no-knock warrants on such flimsy evidence.
>
>So the victims should be able to sue for restitution, which can be monetary
>at least in part, from those who were jointly the agents who committed the
>crime.  Right?
>
>}I think we can all remember cases where the original suspects were 
>}later found to be innocent.  But there seems to be an attitude in 
>}the law enforcement agencies and the prosecutors offices that the
>}first person that becomes a suspect is the guilty party and all
>}further investigation stops.  I am certain that somebody will say 
>}that the police don't have the manpower to do all that investigating,
>}but it seems to me that if they spent more time investigating
>}they wouldn't be wasting so much time on arresting and prosecuting 
>}people who turn out to be innocent.
>
>One of the advantages of restitutional justice is that it gives the victims
>monetary incentive to bring the perpetrator to justice.
>
>
>Tim Starr - Renaissance Now! - Think Universally, Act Selfishly
>
>"True greatness consists in the use of a powerful understanding to enlighten
>oneself and others." - Voltaire


Good points, EXCEPT . . . 

All public employees, and most private ones, are indemnified for any
actions they take in the performance of their assigned duties.  This
means that in the aence of a criminal conviction, the people being
sued are not going to lose one penny!  They will get paid for all
the time that they spend in court, and if it is more than eight hours
a day, they will probably get overtime too! 
 
So even if the judgement is for the plaintiff, the money is going to
be paid by the taxpayers.  And you know who that is, YOU and ME baby!

The only real way for these people to actually pay for their actions
is through loss of their position or job.  But the Sargents will make 
Lieutenant, and the Lieutenants will make Captain, and the Captains
may even make Chief!  And of course the judge will get reelected! 
Not much of a penalty for them!
Newsgroups: alt.activism,misc.headlines,alt.desert-storm,talk.politics.misc
From: goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com (Alex Goykhman)
Subject: Re: U.S. "TO PROVOKE IRAQ" on MONDAY
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 15:57:06 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Chelmsford, MA

In article <9208170423.AA00702@poly.math.cornell.edu> harelb@MATH.CORNELL.EDU (Harel Barzilai) writes:
...
>After a series of interagency meetings in Washington last week, and
>consultations with British, French, and U.N. officials, Bush and his
>national security advisor, Brent Scowcroft, approved a plan on
>Thursday calling for U.N. inspectors now in Baghdad to demand access
          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>to Baghdad's Ministry of Military Industrialization, government
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>officials said.  The chief of the U.N. special commission that
>supervises the inspections, Rolf Ekeus, was said to have left for
>Bahrain, where inspection teams are based.
>
>This ministry, which was not bombed during the Persian Gulf War,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>supervised Iraq's once-secret program to develop weapons of mass
>destruc- tion under the management of President Saddam Hussein's
>son-in-law, Hussein Kamel Hassan.
...
>Other U.S. officials said the Defense and Military Industrialization
                                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Ministries were selected not because American intelligence has
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>identified specific documents hidden there, but because these
                                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>buildings are so important to Hussein's overall survival that he is
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>certain to refuse access.
...

    If Ministry of Military Industrialization is so important to
    Saddam's survival, why wasn't it bombed during the war?

====================================================================

    Yesterday, it was reported that King Hussein of Jordan was coming
    to the US for "medical treatment".  Let us see if he meets
    with Bush, Baker or other senior goverment officials to get
    a second opinion.

    Whether or not the US will strike Iraqi military targets will IMO
    largely depends on Bush's standing in the polls after the
    Republican convention, and the dynamic of those polls between
    now and the Labor Day.  If, come the Labor Day, Clinton still
    holds a %15+ lead in the polls, some kind of military showdown
    with Iraq is likely to occur before the election, probably 
    right after the Labor Day.  If Clinton's lead is narrowed
    to single digits, there will be a lot of saber-rattling, but
    no strike.











-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: all opinions are mine.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Xref: sparky alt.activism:15112 alt.politics.elections:10999 talk.politics.misc:40714 misc.headlines:5754 alt.politics.clinton:2276 alt.politics.bush:2202