HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: iikkap@mits.mdata.fi (Iikka Paavolainen)
Subject: Re: iq<->religion: connection?
Organization: Microdata Oy, Helsinki, Finland
Distribution: world,public
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 14:02:19 GMT

In article <11026@vice.ICO.TEK.COM> bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Robert Beauchaine) writes:
>In article <1992Dec28.112747.22088@prime.mdata.fi> iikkap@mits.mdata.fi (Iikka Paavolainen) writes:
>>Dream on. I never attack anybody emotionally. Last time I did that 8 years ago.
>
>  Quit with the mind fuck, Iikka.  You're not particularly good at
>  it.  And I, who am not even a scientiest or professional logician,
>  have seen more logical absurdities in your posts than I could possibly 
>  enumerate in a single response.  Quit playing so close to your
>  chest.  Or are my emmotional attachments leaking through again?  

If you don't like the whole idea of the discussion, why not say so? Are you
a Christian who is offended? Do you think I would get angry or lose my temper
because of this discussion? What would it benefit me if I went about flaming
people? I don't think you'll get anywhere by flaming me, either, as it won't
change the topic.

>
>
>/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ 
>
>Bob Beauchaine bobbe@vice.ICO.TEK.COM 
>
>"Look, I tried the cat experiment.  On the third trial, the cat was
>dead.  On each of the subsequent 413 trials, it remained dead.  Am I
>doing something wrong?"
>			James Nicoll
>
>Q.  How many Heisenbergs does it take to screw in a light bulb?
>A.  If you know the number, you don't know where the light bulb is!
>


--
 __/|_  ,  ,--------------------------------------------------------------,
/o    \/:--| Iikka Paavolainen / iikkap@mits.mdata.fi, in Espoo, Finland  |
\__~__/\:--| "I won't have a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent."    |
   `    `  `--------------------------------------------------------------'
From: pyotr@halcyon.com (Peter D. Hampe)
Subject: Re: did I like miss your point?
Organization: Northwest Nexus Inc. (206) 455-3505
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 00:05:58 GMT

drieux@wetware.com (drieux, just drieux) writes:

>iikkap@mits.mdata.fi (Iikka Paavolainen) writes:
>] 
>] What amazes me, is that so many people call themselves Christians, but:
>] 
>] 1) Have never read the Bible (unless forced at school)
>] 2) Don't care about most of the commandments
>] 3) Go to church only at Christmas, if at all
>] 4) Donate little to the church, if at all
>] 

to quote an old cliche: goiung to the garage doesn't make you a car.

I know of many peoples who know exactly what church they are
NOT going to.   For most people thChurch is like air, or
elections. Not something to get overly excited over.

>] Have people lost the meaning of Christianity? These people could as well
>] be atheists, as it wouldn't change their life much.


>as Peter Hampe recently pointed out, the whole
>notion of having a bible in the vernacular is
>in itself a very MODERN HERETICAL NOTION foiseted
>by Factions of the ModernSeXularHumanism upon
>the True Believers.

>Or did you miss the whole section in your shool
>days about the middle ages, not to mention, say
i>history from 30AD to 1560AD?
okay lets get this one thing straight: universal education
is a modern idea (out side of certian odd groups
like the Jews and the Muslims.  On the other hand
one can argue that amoungst those who counted - er
were important, literacy was widespread (who cared
about the peasants anyway.)

The Puritans and their kin were very strong on education 
for just that reason: so that everyman could read God's word
for himself, ad not be tempted.  This didn't necessarily mean
that everyone did, but it was the intent.

As for reading the bible in school - that is a 1st Admendment
No no!  Bad, ikky poopers, bringing religion into education!
The children are to create their own value systems without
adult supervison, ..er coertion.

And yes - the fanatics might as well be attheists.  But
then they would be fanatic atheists insisting that they
be the ones listened to when the subject is 'mythology'
in school.

Harumpf.
pyotr
-- 
Pyotr aka Peter D. Hampe : eka pyotr@halcyon.com
Next Months Panel Topic: Graft - boon or blessing?
EOF
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: "James F. Tims" <p00168@psilink.com>
Subject: Mystery of the Missing Mensans
Organization: Semper Excelsior
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 17:37:16 GMT
X-Mailer: PSILink (3.2)

[...]
>  49% Christian, 3% Unitarian, 9% Jewish, 7% agnostic, 3.6% atheist,
>  9% no religion
>
[...]
And 19.4% what?  Non-responding?  Unmentionable?  Members on probation?
Rastafarian, Hindu, Buddhist, and Shinto combined?  Since it's a FAQ,
why not the whole breakout?  Show a little _noblesse oblige_ for us
simple folk, will you?  We on the short end of the mental stick need a 
little help, here.  Of the group responding (80.6%), 4.5% are atheists,
for example.  Can we assume that none of the missing members are in any of 
the listed categories?  

>
>        Mail: aaronk@county.lmt.mn.org       Flames: alt.dev.nul
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  ,...,.,,
 /666;    ',    jim tims
////;    _~ -   p00168@psilink.com
(/@/----0-~-0
 ;'  . `` ~ \'
  , `    ' , >
;;|\..((   -C---->> I've asked this before, several times, getting no answer.
;;| >-  `.__),;;    If anybody could add to 100, you'd think it'd be Mensans.

Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: jwest@wisc (Jeff West)
Subject: Question for theists on fate.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Date: 30 Dec 92 13:48:59 CST

Since there are many theists obviously reading this newsgroup I would
like to sincerely ask the following question.

Do you believe that your god (any religion) controls your destiny?
To expand it a bit, do you believe that when, or before, you are
born that your life has been all worked out for you by god and that
there is nothing you can do to change it?  Is god responsible for
what happens to you?

Since I'm the one that's asked the question I promise that *I* won't
flame any of your replys.

Yours in Colleen,     (who's been to darn quite lately }8-))
  Jeff West

---------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not denial.  I'm just very selective about the reality I accept.

    - Calvin & Hobbs

Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice)
Subject: Re: Monitored by islam (repost)
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 04:28:48 GMT

In <BzEtrA.F2K@news.chalmers.se> d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell) writes:

>In article <1992Dec13.111626.1@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au> phs179b@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au (Dien Rice) writes:
>>Muslims AS A WHOLE
>>are slandered by people who, it is usually found, know practically nothing
>>about Islam.

>>(When I say most non-Muslims do not fully understand about Islam, I speak from
>>my personal experience in dealing with people.

>  Exactly how would you define 'understandning Islam'?

What I meant in the original posting by many people "not understanding 
Islam" (or whatever) is *thinking* you know something factual about
Islam when that "fact" turns out to be a popular misconception, or at
best, a half-truth.

Of course, I also realize that many non-Muslims also have a very good
understanding of what Islam teaches, etc.  However, it was not these
people I was discussing.

 Fred Rice
 darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au   

***********************************************************
	One can either take the time
	to learn about the Islamic faith,
	or one can defer to the wisdom of
	broadcast television and hollywood
	and fail to understand it, completely.

				     Gerard Vignes
	[quoted with permission]
***********************************************************
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,talk.religion.misc
From: warren@nscf.org (L3 Warren)
Subject: Re: THE MIND OF THE BIBLE BELIEVER
Organization: National Science Center Foundation
Distribution: world,public
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 19:31:57 GMT

mam@jcnpc.cmhnet.org (Mike A. McAngus) writes:

>To which the father replies, "How dare you question my motives?  Who brought
>you into the world?  Were you there when I made your mother squeal with glee?  
>Who supplies food on your table and a roof over your head?  Who has showered 
>you with presents on your birthdays and who as bought your books so you could 
>learn?"

>How would you answer such a father?

Yep, I would clearly have to answer, "Fuck off, you presumptious ass. Get 
out of my face. I can see now that my love for you was a total waste."

Warren.

Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: iikkap@mits.mdata.fi (Iikka Paavolainen)
Subject: Re: I.Q. & Brains
Organization: Microdata Oy, Helsinki, Finland
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 13:52:23 GMT

In article <1992Dec29.042959.24862@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> locklin@titan.ucc.umass.edu (Scott Locklin ) writes:
>There has been some discussion of IQ versus atheistic tendancies.
>A few points;
>
>I.Q. does seem to be a fairly accurate indicator of someone's _ability_
>to think, however that does not necessarily imply that said person is 
>using this ability. Quite often high-IQ types end up in rather uninspiring
>jobs; janitorial & etc. Ask a Mensan what type of person you will meet in this
>high-IQ org. It is my understanding that you will meet people from all walks of
>life. Shit, that YoYo in syndicated publication, Marylin vos Savant is an
>excellent example of a complete & utter _MORON_ with a high IQ. What productive
>things has she done lately?

Yes, IQ tests have been put down very much, because they don't measure enough
of one's intelligence. Many people who could solve problems easily when
having a lot of time to think, are suddenly klutzes when they have to think
more speedily (like in a conversation, for example). So complex are the niches
of the brain, that it would be impossible to measure everything at this
level of technology. Well, some measure is better than no measure.

>
>A better judgement would be the ratio of Succesful scientists, engineers,
>doctors & etc. who are atheist vs. fundie & weather they base their religion on
>reason or emotion...

BTW, I'm interested to know what people think who are religious because of
reason. That Bible stuff really made me realize the darker parts of the Bible.

>
>-Scott
>
>


--
 __/|_  ,  ,--------------------------------------------------------------,
/o    \/:--| Iikka Paavolainen / iikkap@mits.mdata.fi, in Espoo, Finland  |
\__~__/\:--| "I won't have a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent."    |
   `    `  `--------------------------------------------------------------'
From: onar@hsr.no (Onar Aam)
Subject: Re: iq<->religion: connection?
Organization: Rogaland University Centre
Distribution: world,public
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 16:04:31 GMT

[deleted]
>>Although I think that you are right in general, I wanted to add that all (6)
>>the exceptionally smart people  I know (IQ>125), including myself, are Christians 
>>except one who is an atheist. 
>>
>>Religion is often connected to feelings. Feelings are unintelligent and if you
>>yourself are not very intelligent, your feelings will make sense and seem 
>>coherent. How often haven't you heard Christians say "Listen to your heart"? Such
>>a statement shows that they allow their feelings to rule their world. This is
>>harder for someone whose rationale exceeds her feelings. She will be more able to 
>>cut through and behave rationally despite of her feelings. She will also be able
>>to see that her feelings are *not* coherent and therefore is less likely to
>>become religious.
>
>Thank you Onar--you and Iikka have just illustrated my concern over
>using anecdotal evidence in support of something.
>
>SD

I don't think you are being fair to me now, Stephen. I gave my counter example to
show that 8 people is way too little statistical data to make bold statements
about, although I do agree that there seems to be some link between logical
abilities and atheism. But I think that to generalize and say that the percentage
of atheists in a domain of people is proportional to the intelligence of that
domain is somewhat exxagerated.
Anyway, I thought it was common knowledge that the rationale and irrationale of
humans go hand in hand. ALL humans are irrational, although at rare occations we
may think and, yes, even behave rationally. Some do this more than others, but
we are all influenced by our irrational nature to some extent, no matter belief
or lack of belief. Those being feelings, hormones and other chemical
stimuli, axioms, stochastic processes of our subconscience, mental 
dis-equilibria and surely a lot of other things which I either am not aware of or
tekporarily have forgotten.



Onar.


    
 
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice)
Subject: Re: Monitored by islam (repost)
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 04:09:04 GMT

In <1992Dec09.154911.21922@bnr.ca> bcash@crchh410.BNR.CA (Brian Cash) writes:

>In article <1992Dec9.084056.1346@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>,
>darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice) writes:
>|>
>|>2. The "monitoring" organized in soc.religion.islam is primarily for
>|>countering misinformation about Islam that floats about the net in
>|>various newsgroups (including this one).  Many non-Muslims are very
>|>poorly informed about Islam.  The shocking thing is, they *think* that
>|>they know a lot about Islam.  They don't even realize how misinformed
>|>they are.  This organized "monitoring" by Muslims is simply an attempt
>|>at improving this situation, i.e. so that if some incorrect or
>|>misleading "information" about Islam is posted by some person who knows
>|>no better, the correct information can be pointed out.  The facts are,
>|>in many western countries, Muslims suffer a lot of discrimination.  This
>|>is one attempt at reducing unjustified anti-Muslim prejudice in the
>|>community.  Some of this misinformation is spread by people who do so
>|>out of political motives, i.e. when it helps their political cause to
>|>have an unfavourable public view of Islam.  The Zionist movement is one
>|>movement that has used, and still uses, these tactics.  (The
>|>"scholarship" of Bernard Lewis is an example of this -- see, for
>|>example, Edward Said's book _Orientalism_.)
>|>
>|>Although I have no connection to this "monitoring" drive, I fully support 
>|>it.  How could anyone who supports the spreading of the truth about a 
>|>subject (in this case, about Islam) be against this?

>This message brought to you by the Ministry of Truth.
>Remember our motto, "it isn't True until we say so!"

No, it's because one would expect Muslims to know a lot more about Islam
than your average non-Muslim.  Also, since many Muslims suffer because
of anti-Muslim discrimination due largely, or at least in part, to
misunderstanding of Islam in the community, Muslims have an interest in
spreading knowledge of what Islam is *really* about.

Enough said.
 
 Fred Rice
 darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au   

==================================================================
=   A poor man said to a rich one:				 =
=     `All my money goes on food.'				 = 
=     `Now that's your trouble,' said the rich man. `I only 	 =
=   spend five per cent of _my_ money on food.'			 = 
=                                        			 =
=                -- Idries Shah, _The Magic Monastery_		 =
==================================================================
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice)
Subject: Re: Monitored by islam (repost)
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 04:15:07 GMT

In <1992Dec11.050237.25167@jcnpc.cmhnet.org> mam@jcnpc.cmhnet.org (Mike A. McAngus) writes:

>To paraphrase a certain prince regent, you must think I'm as thick as a whale
>omelette.  To be an atheist I require that god continue to not reveal hirself
>to me.  My atheism stems from a total lack of empirical evidence for the
>existence of god.  This is no more a "_belief_" than is the ever popular
>aipuism that so many on this newsgroup espouse.

Just because you have no evidence that God exists does not mean that God
then necessarily *does not* exist.  Of course, this is the argument
agaist strong atheism rather than weak atheism (against which I have no
argument).

If any sort of theism is an unjustified belief, then so is strong
atheism.  That was what my point was originally, though expressed
perhaps in a less clear way.

 Fred Rice
 darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au   

==================================================================
=   A poor man said to a rich one:				 =
=     `All my money goes on food.'				 = 
=     `Now that's your trouble,' said the rich man. `I only 	 =
=   spend five per cent of _my_ money on food.'			 = 
=                                        			 =
=                -- Idries Shah, _The Magic Monastery_		 =
==================================================================
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: iikkap@mits.mdata.fi (Iikka Paavolainen)
Subject: Re: iq<->religion: connection?
Organization: Microdata Oy, Helsinki, Finland
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 11:33:37 GMT

In article <ksand-271292173212@wintermute.apple.com> ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik ) writes:
>I don't know, I've not personally observed any correlations between
>intelligence and atheism. However, from my humble experience I've 

I don't wonder at all. However, what kinds of factors do you think
*do* cause atheism, if any?

>noticed that extrovert people that have experienced a lot of the world
>(i.e. travelled, experienced other cultured) seem to have a more holistic
>view concerning religion, and where atheism is a valid world view.

Maybe this is because they compare to other religions and can't figure out
why their own is the one and only?

>
>Kent
>-------------------
>Kent Sandvik (UUCP: ....!apple!ksand; INTERNET: ksand@apple.com)
>DISCLAIMER: Private activities on the Net.		
>"Don't just do something!  Stand there!"  -- Mystery Science Theater 3000


--
 __/|_  ,  ,--------------------------------------------------------------,
/o    \/:--| Iikka Paavolainen / iikkap@mits.mdata.fi, in Espoo, Finland  |
\__~__/\:--| "I won't have a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent."    |
   `    `  `--------------------------------------------------------------'
From: eradm@wbst845e.xerox.com (Erik Radmall)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: iq<->religion: connection?
Date: 28 Dec 92 15:41:46 GMT
Reply-To: eradm@wbst845e.xerox.com
Organization: Xerox Corporation

In article 9001@prime.mdata.fi, iikkap@mits.mdata.fi (Iikka Paavolainen) writes:
> In article <1992Dec24.234010.20861@u.washington.edu> jeon@carson.u.washington.edu (Sangyong Jeon) writes:
> >
> >To the optimists who expressed the hope that the atheist flag would
> >fly in the end, I hope you and me are right. But as long as there
> >remain people who feel powerless and helpless in a society, I am
> >afraid it will remain just that - a hope. Mind you, eradication of
> >poverty alone won't eliminate the feeling of powerlessness some feels.
> >Even eradication of poverty combined with (good) universal education
> >won't do that. In this sense, violence and religion cannot be
> >separated. They are just two different manifestations of one human
> >desire, the power.
> 
> Thus if we eradicate religion we will eradicate much of the violence in
> this world.

Huh? wouldn't it be to eradicate the will to power? Religion is not a bad
thing in and of itself. In fact, is is a necessary oil for the machinery of
society. Violence comes from greed and fear, not religion. The conquistadors
didn't care about "converting" the natives -- they cared about gold. The
crusades were not religious, they were a land grab. Just because greedy
individuals use religion as an umbrella for impropriety does not invalidate
religion itself. C'mon, I would expect more serious inquiry from someone
who seems to care a lot about logic.

> What people really need is the ability to think with their own minds, not
> just mindlessly follow the opinions of the masses, "just because their doing
> it too". The amount of people that believe in certain ideas never tells the
> correctness or logic of those ideas.

Agreed. But what is "correctness" or "logic" other than a useful tool within
certain contexts. Religion is a tool to help point to a state of transcendence.
All of the dogma and seeming contradiction is of a superficial nature. At the
esoteric level all religions are centered on the "mystical" experience. It is interesting to note that the differences between Islam, Christianity, Buddhism,
Hinduism, AmerInd religions' expressions of this mystical state differ so little
as to be almost indistinguishable from one another.
To deny the importance of emotion or the need for self-transcendence can cause one
to lead a very shallow existence, indeed. You may be able to use logic to win over
the debating team, but it hardly helps one to woo women. I can tell you what I
prefer to do! :-)

> 
> Well smart people tend to grab the riches, because they have the means.
> But, as I said, I think the environment is more important a factor.

Alas, this is about as far from the truth as could be (providing your version
of "smart" is in any way tied to success in academia or IQ tests). Financially
successful folks are those who possess a strong desire to succeed and the
courage to carry out their plans.


---
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: The Bible As A Rorschach
Date: 31 Dec 92 22:26:44 GMT
Organization: sgi
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com

In article <1992Dec31.020043.25959@arden.linet.org>, joeb@arden.linet.org (Joe Beiter) writes:
>
> Hitler had no right to do what he did.  Hitler is not God.

I'd hate to misunderstand you here.   Is Hitler not
being God the *reason* why he had no right to do what 
he did?

Would God have the right to do what Hitler did?

jon.
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: Tim.ONeill@english.utas.edu.au (Tim O'Neill)
Subject: Re: Fun ways to get rid of fundies...
Organization: University of Tasmania (Australia)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 03:52:49 GMT

In article <1hqoqaINNdk0@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, bb099@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Adam Trent Phillips) writes:
> 
> 
> 	A good one is that if you see them coming to your house,
> take a copy of ICE-T's "Body Count" and put in your stereo, cranking it
> on the song "Cop Killer".

Very true Kent, though I think that 'KKK Bitch' would do just as well. I live
next door to the Full Gospel Church and when I'm felling silly on Sunday
mornings I put on Ministry's 'Psalm 69' and sit on my balcony with a
malevolent grin on my face. They probably can't make out the lyrics
( I can't either), but it sounds diabolical enough to make the worshippers
walk a little faster as they pass my house.

Tim O'Neill
Tasmanian Devil
'You wanna ban the AK? I got ten of em stashed and a case of hand-grenades!'
Bodycount
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: martin@cs.curtin.edu.au (Martin Dougiamas)
Subject: Re: A little food for thought (pizza?)
Organization: Curtin University of Technology
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 14:43:54 GMT

nyeda@cnsvax.uwec.edu (David Nye) writes:
>In particular, I wanted to know that there was something "big out there"
>(the idea of the Christian God was too unpalatable even then).  In
>retrospect, it is clear to me that I was trying to perpetuate the
>parent-child relationship.  I believe this is the main reason religion
>survives in the face of its patent absurdity.  It is just too much for
>some people to relinquish the role of the dependant child and take sole
>responsibility for themselves.  The use of paternal imagery in religion
>is no accident.

Well put... I came to this same conclusion at a rather young age, and
was roundly critisised for my views, too, at the time... perhaps it
strikes too close to the truth. Just try discussing these things
with those "under the influence"!    (hey!  Pizza *and* beer!  :)

Martin
--
Your eyes are weary from staring at the screen.  Your eyelids feel very heavy.
You feel sleepy. Notice how restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your
eyes. The opinions stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt
otherwise.  When you awake you will follow up this post and enthusiastically
agree with it.  Then you will send all your money to martin@cs.curtin.edu.au.
Newsgroups: alt.atheism