From: c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: re: continuation on Cyprus, Walmart, Mexico...
Date: 21 Dec 1992 22:40:50 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

/* Warning. Another LONG message. May be upsetting to Mexicans */

cza@troy.cc.bellcore.com writes:
> I might hit a raw nerve.  As you guessed it, the writting mistakes 
> that you have pointed out are the result of very late and tiresome hours
> of last Sunday and a primitive line editor. Truly sorry for your 
> reading troubles.  

No trouble at all. I recognize a bad editing job when I see it :-). As a
loyal AT&T employ you use 'vi' :-) But You sure did hit a good nerve.

> You see if everybody acts properly, there would be no problem for the 
> communications in good taste.  Since you are breaking new grounds 
> everyday in the name of combating with Argic, Besime, Baysan, etc. by 
> getting more and more personal, I decided to handle a king of palik 
> from the state of Illinois, who constantly desires picking a bone 
> with me and the rest of the Turks.     

I would not say I'm getting personal; In Besime's case and a bit in
yours I used universally acceptable Argic Methods. He's been getting
away with it for years, I might as well ride in his (oops, His) coattails.

I have not gotten nasty with Okan as he's been civil so far, and that
has been greatly appreciated. He has presented a view from his own
experiences in a way that may be a bit off for many people but it
really indicates that he believes what he says. Which is a good step.

In her case it took her a while to figure out what is right and what is
not. You, on the other hand, know better. Again I apologise for the mean
spirit of my message. I only wish others apologised for their acts.

>Like the Israelis who never agree to Arafat's leadership
>of Palestinians, Greeks are also trying to smear Denktas always to get 
>away with their unjust acts in the past.  The problem that Greeks have 
>is the confusion with Denktas' position with Arafat's.  

Not at all. In all my years of reading soc.culture.whatever this is
the first time I've seen the analogy come up. I've been debating this since
1983, by the way, back when I was at the University of Southwestern Louisiana,
and people like Tuna Ertemalap and Metin Topcan were around (this was a
bit later, maybe 1985). 

The circumstances surrounding Arafat and Denktash are quite different. I
do not see how anyone could make the analogy. 

> He has the 
>upper hand in this negotiation based on the recent history of Cyprus.

If I had 80,000 settlers and 40,000 army I'd have a really good hand.

>He is the only guy around to be negotiated with.  

Since there is no opposition, thanks to the instant-o-citizens (see settlers).

> Moreover, there is no
>equitable solution for everybody's satisfaction in Cyprus.

How so? In my own model of the solution, I'd let the 40% occupied land
stand. I'd let the settlers if they were really necessary, and I'd get
rid of the Turkish army. I'd organize a TRNC army. So far so good?

Then, I'd start running TRNC as a NATION. Not as a PROTECTORATE which
is what it basically is now. 

The steps above would ensure that United Nations would take a more
symphathetic (these %#$% Greek words) attitude towards TRNC. 

Then, under UN's (or anyone else's, i.e. EEC, Arab League, ...) I'd set
up a commitee to investigate property losses. We are not talking about
Manhattan, New York, mind you. Cyprus is a small place and  the process
can get done quickly. I'd only do it at the  immovable property level,
i.e. houses/businesses. Land will be trickier but I'd say that there is
enough for everyone. Cyprus' national tree is not the ROCK like in Greece.

It would thus be easy to calculate the amount of $$$ lost to the South
and North, and appropriate renumeration given to BOTH sides. Since the
governments of Greece and Turkiye would also be involved, they could
contribute some of their $$$ as well.

>How could it be after all those years when the Turkish Cypriots 
>have been always forced to draw the short ended stick?  

I'll assume for the sake of discussion that the Greek Cypriots were
as bad as the South Africans, practiced Apartheid, etc etc.

IT STILL DOES NOT JUSTIFY INVASION/INTERVENTION AND STATE SPONSORED
ROBERRY. SIMPLE AND EASY. Let's use a Spiros Analogy once more:

***************************************************************************
* Kindly note that the text below is hypothetical of course. I don't want *
* to start ANOTHER flame war with Mexicans or Mexican Americans.          *
* REPEAT AFTER ME. IT IS ONLY AN EXAMPLE. IT IS ONLY AN EXAMPLE. IT IS ONL*
***************************************************************************

It would come to no surprise that MANY (notice the MANY) Mexican
Americans in the LA area  have been exploited by the system. They were
given low paying jobs, lived in high crime areas, were discriminated
upon, etc etc etc. 

Finally, some ultra-nationalist white supremacy skinhead type group
starts random acts of violence against them. The local police is
unable and/or unwilling to do anything.

The Mexican Americans finally ask for help from Mother Mexico (this
comes out worse than Mother Turkiye, but, o, well, tough). The Mexican
(i.e. as in COUNTRY Mexico) Army finally crosses Interstate I-10 
(is that easy or what) and intervenes to save the day. But the Mexican
Americans don't stop there; they continue to occupy a good part of Los
Angeles and San Diego. The American forces were too busy suntanning
and surfing and missed the whole thing. (either that or defense
cuts forced all bases in the area to become country clubs and hotels).

A few weeks/months pass. Almost half of Los Angeles is now under
Mexican and Mexican American occupation. The rightful owners of the
properties have fled to safer grounds in Sacramento. Scenic Santa
Barbara, Hollywood, Bel Air, etc are all under Mexican occupation.
The famous "HOLLYWOOD" sign now reads "EL CASA DEL FILMOS MEXICANOS".
Mexican Beer (YEA!) flows. (I'm really getting carried away with this). 

The situation stays the same. With almost half of Los Angeles gone,
the Mexican Americans find themselves unable to run the place. There
are too many empty houses/businesses, and services are deteriorating
fast. The solution arrives in the form of Mexican Settlers from 
across the borders. By the thousand they arrive, speaking the same
language, having the same religion, eating the same foods. They are
welcome by the Mexican Americans, instantly named citizens with all
rights and priviledges, and all are given homes to live in / businesses
to work or own, all free of charge. For good cause, a large chunk
of the Mexican Army stays there just in case...

*****************************************************************
* END OF RIDICULOUS ANALOGY. IT WAS ONLY A FAR FETCHED EXAMPLE. *
* IF I COULD THINK OF SOMETHING BETTER I WOULD. NO FLAMES PLS.  *
*****************************************************************

>Some may say that 18 years of refugee status in the south was not
>enough to pay the ill deeds .

So the real motivation for the invasion is REVENGE? Way to go!

>Well, the answer is "not really" after 
>considering who suffers the most economically and who finds 
>multimillions for the arms. 

After a ridiculous example with Mexico invading Los Angeles, time for
a more serious example. 

African Americans suffered for centuries in North America. Far worse
than any TRNC citizen can imagine. 

Does this justify the LA Riots? By your logic it does. That is,
violence, theft of property, and occupation are all acceptable if done
to remedy old ills. Not that I expect you to answer this, but I'd really
like to see you respond to it.

>Greeks cannot simply get back whatever 
>they had before.  This is a fact.  

Not "whatever", but, something of equal and fair value. Anything
less would constitute armed robbery. (it did...)

>Now, the turn of picking the short 
>stick is Greeks' for all these past times' sake.  

So it is revenge you are after. Good. Glad you're so frank about it.

>This is the 
>unfortunate result of their violent and unjust ventures in the island.

Then you justify the LA riots as well? Yes or No?

>Denktas says that Turkish side is willing to pay for the balance of 
>property claims after the calculation of the worth of Turkish property
>left in the south.  

Sure he is. And Arxid is not Mutlu, and Santa Claus is really Mutlu
with a beard. And the Easter Bunny has USENET access.

> However, he says that the Greek side has to give 
>a chance for the Turkish Cypriot economy to recover.

I.e. in about a thousand years... So much for his willingness. 
How better could the economy recover; Turkiye is sinking lots of $$$ 
in TRNC, the settlers and residents found homes/businesses free of 
charge and now they can't even run the f*ing businesses? What more 
do they want, RENT ?????

>Asking a third party mediation..  I consider this is
>another joke.  

I bet Saddat and Begin (sp!) and Pres. Carter would disagree with you.
How about the settlement of the Iran-Iraq war? Despite having fought for
8-9 years and with each side having seen staggering losses, they decided
to talk about it and eventually stopped fighting. 

>We all know very well what the third party mediation
>means by now.  To date there is no permanent resolution
>in anywhere accomplished by a third party involvment.  

How about the Middle East peace talks? Another joke, right? But we
forgot, Turks are the descendants of Genkiz (:-) Khan, take no prisoners,
accept no mediation, long live the Klingon Empire (oops). 

Does the term WILLING ring a bell? Don't think so.

This is getting too long. Anyhow, Genkiz, and whoever else has had the
patience to read until now, please answer ONE question. How different
are the LA Riots from the Cyprus intervention events?

Screw it, this is not worth it. I'm trying to convince people who
wouldn't shoplift a candy bar from Walmart about the ethics of stealing
half a country to 'correct past injustices'. I bet I could shoplift a
few items because I bought something for $29.95 a month ago and now it's
on sale for $24.95. (REVENGE! CORRECT PAST INJUSTICE! STEAL!)

Spiros
--
(Not Mexican, Cypriot, or anything; just lives next to a Walmart. ALWAYS)