From: bskendig@netcom.com (Brian Kendig)
Subject: Re: There are two years left!
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 92 22:13:45 GMT
Organization: Starfleet Headquarters: San Francisco

Some people have sent me email indicating that they took my post to be
a nothing more than making fun of Christianity.  I didn't intend to do
anything of the sort; I myself can't stand people who poke fun at
other people's beliefs.  My intent was to shake things up just a bit,
and maybe try to show Christians my side of the argument, and I've had
some success; read on...

rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts) wrote (in article <68224@hydra.gatech.EDU>):
>In article <zwznhf+.bskendig@netcom.com> bskendig@netcom.com (Brian Kendig) writes:
>|[ James Meritt is God. ]
>
>James Meritt put for a theory that he is god and asked for proof against such.

The word "proof" in a theological argument is rather meaningless.  I
swear that I will readily convert to Christianity (I already accept
the religion as "valid", just not true; cf. another thread) if you can
provide me with proof that the Christian God exists and that he is who
he says he is; can you provide me with more proof than Mr. Meritt can
provide for his godhood?

Before you answer, keep reading...

>|I was thinking about this on the way to work this morning.  "Give me a
>|sign," I asked the heavens, "so that I may believe!"  And lo! and
>|behold! the license plate on the car in front of me read "JAMES" and I
>|noticed this just in time to stop from plowing into his rear bumper,
>|because he had slammed on his brakes.  I have been SAVED!
>
>If only the life, works, death, resurrection of Jesus had not have
>happened, then you would have some point, but it did and you have none.
>You make fun, but it doen't work.

The life, works, death, and resurrection of Jesus are described in
detail in the Bible and have many historical referents.  This doesn't
necessarily mean that Jesus was exactly the person the Bible describes
him to be.  Along this same line of reasoning, the work of Allah and
his prophet Mohammed are described in detail in the Koran and have
many referents in Arabic history; does this mean that Mohammed and
Allah are every bit as real as God and Jesus?  If not, then what's the
difference?

I'm not criticizing your beliefs.  I'm just trying to bring attention
to the fact that the farther back in history you go, the more myth you
find entangled with the reality.  I'm not ignoring the possibility
that the Resurrection _could_ have happened, but how can you say with
all certainty that it _did_?

And since believing in the Resurrection implies believing in most of
the New Testament and Christian teachings, a lot of which strikes me
as of even less certain probability, I'm not willing to believe that
the two thousand year old story is completely accurate.

>|Yeah, sure, Jesus rose from the dead, it says so in this old book
>
>Why is this old book superseded for your claim to knowledge and your new
>writings right here?  Why, if this old book doesn't have any weight
>or worth, do you so readily discount it?

The Bible was written by people who had little understanding of the
world around them and imagined God having a great deal of influence in
their lives, people who believed that they would be tossed into hell
if they strayed from the straight and narrow and thus embellished
Biblical stories to scare believers away from sinning, people who
thought that the Bible would be "better" if this one little part were
changed or if a story was added here, and so forth.  In my opinion,
it's a two-thousand-year-old patchwork of great historical value and
questionable literary value (too many editors ;).

If I witness or experience something that conflicts with what I've
read, and I'm unable to reconcile my experience with my learning, then
I'll abandon what I've read in favor of what I've experienced.  That's
why I've "superseded" the Bible in favor of my own "claim to
knowledge" -- because, in my opinion, the world just doesn't work the
way the Bible says it does.  Good and bad things happen to me whether
or not I say grace before supper or put a dollar in the collection
plate.

>|right here. But Jesus is only make-believe, and Mr. Meritt LIVES!  He
>
>Mr. Meritt lives and will die like mere man, as all of the rest of us
>who live will die.  It is appointed unto man once to die and after that
>the judgement, you know.

Thus says your book -- or at least your book says that somebody said
it two thousand years ago.  Nobody who died has ever told me what it's
like, so for all I know you could be right.

>Jesus lived - you claim he is make-believe, but why?  What other 
>historical figure, that is proported to be real, do you so agressively
>and happily deny existed??????????????

I'll accept that Jesus lived.  I don't accept that he did all these
wonderful and incredible things just like the Bible says (hence the
reason why I called him 'make-believe' -- after all, there was a St.
Nicholas, but no Santa Claus).

>|Mr. Meritt said he created the universe, and obviously the universe
>|exists, so he must've done it.  And I even read in a post recently
>|that Mr. Meritt is God, and that post was propagated to hundreds of
>|thousands of news sites across the globe, so it must be true!
>
>Now you can read Mr. Meritt is NOT God - he is a man.

Maybe he's both man and God in one body!  ;)

[ more points deleted, because I don't want to get off the subject here ]

I've had a lot of conversations with Christians; I'm doing my best to
keep an open mind to the religion.  If I can ever be convinced that
Christian philosophy is more than just a lot of writings and teachings
that fit together nicely, if I can ever be shown an instance where the
Christian God has manifested himself in the real, physical world and
not just in religious writings, then I will fall to my knees and pray
for my soul.

But until then, I have no choice but to remain skeptical.  Sure, there
have been a lot of Christians who have told me of remarkable
experiences they've had that have proved to them beyond the shadow of
a doubt that their God exists, and I envy them and wish I could
have an experience like that.

But the majority of Christians I've spoken to face-to-face believe in
God because they've been taught to, and for no other reason.  They're
usually surprised that I'd question such a basic "fact", and they
engage in circular proofs to demonstrate their reasoning.  ("Well, the
universe exists, so God must have created it... you ask who created
God?  Don't be silly!")

Here's a question for you: Without pointing to what's written in the
Bible, or quoting Church teachings, or using anything other than your
own personal experience and knowledge, can you say with complete
honesty that there is a god, and that it manifests itself in the
universe and even in your life, and that it exactly fits the
description that Christianity gives of it?

     << Brian >>

-- 
_/_/_/       Brian Kendig  Macintosh Jedi           Live never to be ashamed
 _/_/   Starfleet Captain  Oracle Employee         if anything you do or say
  _/  Intrepid Adventurer  Saturn SL2 Owner    is published around the world
      bskendig@netcom.com  Wizard of Frobozz    -- even if what is published
    Princeton '92! BSE/CS  Writer/Actor/Singer                   is not true.
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc