From: colten@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (marc.colten)
Subject: Re: Libertarian heaven
Summary: Why?
Organization: AT&T
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 18:20:28 GMT

In article <1993Jan07.030032.4406@microsoft.com>, leecr@microsoft.com (Lee Crocker) writes:
> >Geff Underwood writes:
> 
> >I wasn't reading about a month ago [when the Libertarian Somalia
> >nonsense was originally debated], but in my experience the most
> >characteristic sentiment of a libertarian is the line "That government
> >is best which governs least".  To me, that implies that the best
> >possible situation would be no government at all.
> 
> You'll find no argument from me, even though the party itself is
> mostly reformer types with softer rhetoric--I'm a more orthodox
> Libertarian.
> 
> Where I will argue is the idea that Somalia resembles in any way
> what Libertarians are working for.  The overwhelming majority of
> Somalis are unarmed, poor, unable to work because there is no trade
> or industry, unable to own private property because it is looted
> by armed theives supplied by foreign governments.  What do you
> call those battling gangs of armed thugs with no respect for anyone's
> rights but their own?  I call them governments, and Somalia's
> problem is too many, not too few.  They fulfill all the traditional
> roles of governments--they keep the majority of people unarmed
> and starving, they fight amongst themselves for the loot they have
> stolen, and they fight anyone who tries to better himself by earning
> an honest living.
> 
> Libertarian heaven may or may not have a government, but its people
> will be too busy getting rich to notice.
> 

I think you're assuming we start with a rich country and then
go Libertarian. Where is the evidence that a country like Somalia
would work itself up the ladder based on your theory.

As for the "too many governments" idea of Somalia, I think you're
twisting the facts around.  The "warlords" of Somalia are nothing
like the governments that Libertarians are constantly arguing
against. They were not chosen by some of the people with authority
over all of them. They are truly the Libertarian ideal.  They 
have used their money to buy weapons to be totally independent
of any law or society. Yes, they are violating the rule you
think Libertarians should obey, to not take advantage of other
people, but that is your mistake not theirs.  By what logic
do you think that in the absence of a central government, people
will naturally respect each other?

In any society you will have good people and bad people.  A 
government with police powers may not be perfect but they make
an attempt to control the bad people.  In a Libertarian society
the good people will use their money to build up their businesses
and compete with other good people.  The bad people will buy guns
and take things from the good people.  The good people will
eventually have to buy guns to protect themselves, draining money
from their enterprises. The bad people will have no such burden.
I think that in an evolutionary sense - the bad people would always
win such a fight, or convert the good people to their idea. 

The solutions to a problem like Somalia are varied.  You could
institute a government with police powers and make it against
the law to terrorize other people. Or you could tell every
Somali that they have the same right to have weapons - which
right now they can't afford.  You could hand out weapons and
ammo to poor, starving, frightened individuals and hope this
helps them against well organized groups of highly motivated
thugs, but I don't think they would have much of a chance.
Each person would minimize their own risk and let their neighbor
take the chances.  Ironically, the good leaders would be all
on the other side.  If a strong leader came up to unite the
people, he'd have to be a saint not to set up his own kingdom
once hundreds of armed people were obeying his every command.

Somalia may not be what the Libertarians think would happen,
but it is a very clear example of what keeps happening.

marc colten

Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.rush-limbaugh