Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
From: liuyh@vis.toronto.edu (Yuanhui Liu)
Subject: Re: Territory of Ancient China : Tang Dynasty
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Toronto
Date: 9 Sep 92 19:40:42 GMT

In article <liqiang.716060575@kramden> liqiang@kramden.nyu.edu (Li) writes:
>lix@yangtze.bu.edu (Xiaowen Li) writes:
>
>>In article <92Sep9.100531edt.128@orasis.vis.toronto.edu> liuyh@vis.toronto.edu (Yuanhui Liu) writes:
>>>In article <1992Sep9.022715.24826@leland.Stanford.EDU> claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) writes:
>><>In article <95545@bu.edu> lix@xanadu.bu.edu (Xiaowen Li) writes:
>><(deleted)
>><>
>><>Unfortunately (he did have good intentions, but...) the abolishment of Rou
>><>Xin caused more deaths, according to what I read, since the punishment was
>><>then changed to whipping, which often resulted in deaths.
>
>>Mr. Lu is right, but what I said is his awareness of human rights presented
>>in his order. 
>><>
>><Liu Hen was a good emperor, but Han Dynasty's military was in a sad
>><shape, china was still exhausted, Xiong Nu plunders the north at will,
>><it was similar to the situation Li Shi Ming faced, but the Tang Dynasty
>><managed to change from fending off the Tu Jue from 20 miles of its
>><capital to wipe them out a couple of years later, with an exhausted
>><country also.  You have to say that militarily Liu Hen or his son(Jin Di)
>><was no comparison to Li Shi Ming, only until Liu Che(Wu Di) Han started
>><to acquire the capibility of defending itself.  
>
>>Nah, Liu Che did too much more than defending. He even started war at his
>>free will, and finally spent over all national reserves accumulated since
>>Liu Hen. This is also exactly the pattern of QianLong to KangXi.
>
>><>>Similarly, KangXi is another surprise in Chinese history. No other
>><>>emperors ever understood and taught his offsprings:
>><>>
>><>>Emperor is to manage the country,
>><>>not the country to serve the emperor.
>><
>><Li Shi Ming was the first to speak the truth about the relation
>><between the Emperor and his subjects:  Water can carry the ship,
>><but it also can overturn the ship.  
>
>>This is exactly why KangXi is superior to TaiZong: In TaiZong's mind,
>>people can be used, but may also present as a danger, if the emperor
>>did not take care of them well enough. This is good, better than other
>>emperors. However, the master-servant relation was reversed only in
>>KangXi's couplets.
>><>
>><>Hmmm.  I am not sure the Liu Hen had any understanding of democracy, and
>><>although he was an excellent emperior (IMO), he once almost executed the
>><>entire family (the 3 Zu's) of a man accused of cutting a tree on the tomb of
>><>his father, Liu Bon (Han Gou Zu).  Of course, everyone had their blemishes.
>
>>In any dynasty, cutting tree on emperors's tomb would be similarly punished:-(
>>This was very severe crime at that time.
>
>><>Another emperor who ranks high on my list is Liu Shiu (Han Guang Wu Di).  His
>><>personality showed a lot of kindness and non-forgetfulness of the good things
>
>>Yeah, I think GuangWu should be ranked about the same level of TaiZong, the
>>first rate emperors, while Han Wen and KangXi are super-rate.
>
>>-- 
>
>All the emperors mentioned are emperors with achievements. Discussions
>on comparisons among them are absurd and unproductive and also biased.
>
>- Li, Qiang

Why not?  Why can we make comparsions about good emperors?  would you
like to point out what other topics currently under heated debate
are productive?  ST, TI, Tibet, Japan, which one is a productive topic?
I thought this is supposed to be soc.culture.china.   



Newsgroups: soc.culture.china