From: lking@athena.mit.edu (Loren King)
Subject: Re: Women in Iran
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 17:43:21 GMT

In article <1992Nov9.180307.2065@ucbeh.san.uc.edu>, minhaszt@ucbeh.san.uc.edu writes:
|> In article <1992Nov9.195235.10358@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com>, javad@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com (Agha Javad) writes:
|> > In article <1992Nov8.180122.2058@ucbeh.san.uc.edu> minhaszt@ucbeh.san.uc.edu writes:
|> >>In article <1992Nov7.040957.20138@wuecl.wustl.edu>, seyyed@wuee1.wustl.edu (Seyyed Mahdavian) writes:
|> >>> In article <1992Nov6.192738.6666@athena.mit.edu> lking@athena.mit.edu (Loren King) writes:
|> >>> 
|> >>>>                           Women who have to fly from their
|> >>>>country just to explore the wonders of intellectual life.
|> >>
|> >>man that has nothing to do with culture or islam. if the standard of education
|> >>was high in those countries there would not be as much of a need for them to
|> >>come over here. the poor standard of education is a problem in itself, but it
|> >>has nothing to do (directly) with islam.
|> > 
|> > I think the best judge of that are those women themselves.  Ask them did you
|> > leave ONLY to get a college degree?  I trust you will be surprised.  Only
|> > they and not you or I can speak for themselves.
|> 
|> like i said before, most of the governments in that area of the world are not
|> conducive to peace of mind. however, when i was referring to coming to america
|> for an education i was refering to both men and women, not just women alone. i
|> did not make that clear. and i still feel that if the standard of education was
|> higher, there would not be the need for as many people to come here.
|> 
|> >>
|> >>western people have a cultural arrogance that they are proud of. and anyone who
|> > 						^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> >>does not think th same way that they do is backward. for some reason i think
|> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> > 
|> > Where have we seen this before?  Now let me think, hmmmmm.....
|> 
|> muslim people are not that way (in general). within the things that it allows
|> or is indifferent about, it is relativistic, outside of that of course, it is
|> not. when muslims say that the west is backward or uncivilized, there is a lot
|> of history behind that kind of a statement and should not be taken out of that
|> context. muslims used to be the rulers of the world, and we know that we shot
|> ourselves in the foot on many occasions to speed our downfall. this naturally
|> allowed the colonialist powers to gain easier access to everything we had.
|> while they took away our resources, they kicked us around and attacked
|> everything we held valuable. i know it was only a hundred years ago when the
|> brits were burning our qurans and forcing many muslims to say prayers for the
|> queen of england. at the same time teaching us that we were backward and were
|> shit for being muslims in the first place. you can not deny these things mr.
|> javad.  this is the heart and soul of the western experience in our muslim
|> lands. this is definitely how mr. king is judging us.




Oh, SPARE ME, PLEASE!!!  Have you not read a word I've written?
I'm not defending "Western" imperialism, and I am not judging you.
I am arguing that some values are defensible, or at the very least
discussable, across cultures and belief systems, and that one of 
these values is the substantive equality of all individuals regardless
of sex, race, and cultural heritage.


|> because we are not like
|> him, we don't drink, we don't have alcoholism in our lands, we don't have the
|> kind of drug problems that this country has (though it is there). we don't have
|> the aids problemss in our lands (though it is there to some extent). with the
|> relativistic western tradition and the so-called "freedom" that comes with it,
|> the environment would DEFINITELY be ripe for these problems and more. yes they
|> are racist and i hold by my statement that mr. king is speaking through his
|> cone shaped hood.


Oh yes, us Canadians (that's right, I go to school here but I'm not
American) are vigorous in our cultural and economic imperialism!  
Hell, we're one of the few "Western" nations that has attempted to 
redress the atrocities our ancestors committed against the first 
peoples of these regions centuries ago; but I guess that's just a 
ruse to trick all of you non-"Western" nations into following our 
Satanic ways. Hell buddy, do you scream racism and imperialism
at every attempt to discuss issues?  Or only at those you disagree 
with?


|> no western tradition should not be introduced whole heartedly
|> in our lands.


... and no one has said it should be.


|> yes it is backwards, the result of it shows. we don't want those
|> preblems on the scale that they are here. can't you see that mr. javad? it
|> isn't  a question of racism, it is a question of knowing what we want our 
|> society to be.
|> > 
|> >>from our religion, in fact science is a subset of our religion. no other
|> >>religion has that. 
|> > 
|> > Yet another reason that muslims are superior.  We certainly haven't had a 
|> > shortage of those, now have we?
|> > 
|> > If you want to kiss the sky, you better learn how to kneel first.
|> 
|> totally agree, that is why we have to pray five times a day, be humble to god.
|> remind ourselves that this life is only temporary, and we have to answer to
|> him. it is a good thing don't you think. ours is not a once a week religion.
|> it is a way of life. and i am proud of that thank you.
|> > 
|> >>>>Loren King
|> >>> Seyyed.
|> >>zafar
|> > 
|> > Agha Javad
|> > 
|> 
|> --== not the fingernail man ==--
|> 
|> zafar
|> 
|> 
|> > 


Loren King
MIT