From: josip@src.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric)
Subject: Re: Irony continues in our history
Organization: Systems Research Center, Maryversity of Uniland, College Park
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 20:41:40 GMT

In article <1992Aug14.160249.24404@cco.caltech.edu> simic@pollux.ccsf.caltech.edu (Petar Simic) writes:
>>>>	Petar Simic writes:
>> ...(because I feel sick whenever I have to). Instead, I will let French
>> historian, Edmund Paris speak (from his book, "Genocide In Satellite
>> Croatia"), not about the total Serbian loss in the WWII, but only about
>> part of it - massacres of Serbs in part of the former Yugoslavia (Croatia,
>> which with Hitlers help included also most of the Bosnia and Hercegovina).
>>
>>       Here is the relevant paragraph:
>>       -------------------------------
>>
>>       " ...There (in Croatia), in years 1941-1945, some 750,000 Serbs,
>> 60,000 Jews, and 26,000 Gypsies - men, women and children - perished in
>> a gigantic holocaust. These are the figures used by most foreign authors,
>> especially the Germans, who were in the best position to know. Herman
>> Neubacher, perhaps the most important of Hitler's troubleshooters in the
>> Balkans, reports that althought some of the perpetrators of the crime 
>> estimated number of Serbs killed at one million, the more accurate figure
>> is 750,000 [*]. One of Hitler's generals, Lothar Rendulic, who was in the
>> area where the crimes were committed, estimates that in the first year
>> of the existence of the puppet state of Croatia at last a half million
>> Orthodox Serbs were massacred, and that many others were killed in 
>> subsequent years [**]...."

The above paragraph quotes estimates obtained through third parties as
gospel truth.  Can a person who briefly visits a forrest tell how many
trees are there?  Of course not: you need a forrester to actually count
them.  And this is precisely what demographers do, what government surveys
do.  Here are a few references containing their results:

(1) Bogoljub Kocovic: "Zrtve Drugog svetskog rata u Jugoslaviji"
    (World War II Victims in Yugoslavia; in Serbian), London, 1985

(2) Vladimir Zerjavic: "Gubici stanovnistva Jugoslavije u drugom svjetskom
    ratu", (The Losses of Yugoslav Population in Second World War; in Croatian)
    Zagreb, 1989; (A comprehensive summary of this book in English can be
    found in Geographical Papers 8:83-107; 1991, Institute of Geography,
    University of Zagreb, Zagreb)

(3) Estimates of the Commissions for the Verification of War Crimes, 1946

(4) Yugoslav Government Study of World War II Victims, 1964

(5) Zeljko Kruselj and Djuro Zagorac: "Sporna knjiga mrtvih",
    (The Contested Book of the Dead; in Croatian), Danas, Zagreb, Nov. 11, 1989

All of these sources lead to the following conclusion: Serb losses in WWII
(from all causes) account for about 500,000 of the total which is about one
million.  And yet, Serbian militants recklessly tout the highest available
estimates, unsupported by published evidence, in an attempt to advance and
justify their war TODAY.

THIS IS WHY THESE FACTS ARE IMPORTANT!!!  If it were just a question of
history, we might consider this a case of conflicting opinions and move
on.  But, right now people are being killed, and the killers are motivated
by factually incorrect historical information.

The conclusions of all of the above sources can be checked, unlike the
unsubstantiated estimates quoted by Mr. Simic.

>	-------------------------------------------------------
>
>	Josip further writes:
>
>>>>......All of these charges are constructed to justify Serbian aggression
>in progress today.  Serbian propaganda against Croatia started...
>
> ...Given the political and ideological conflict between Serbs and Croats,
> this is a highly politicized issue...
><<<
>
>	Ideological conflict? Hmmm...Oh, I know, you mean "Serbs are
> Communists", "Serbs are Communists",...Media loves this stuff. It is
> so simple.

Serbia and Montenegro did elect the (renamed) Communists (about 70% of the
seats) and neo-fascists (about 24% of the seats).  But, this is NOT
what I'm talking about: the key ideological conflict is that Serbs
want to run a profitable, centralized mini-empire, while Croats, 
Slovenes and others want a decentralized confederation or full
independence.  NOBODY wants Serbian hegemony except Serbs.

>	-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>>>>... Some progress could be made by removing it from politics, allowing
> that an academic debate take place based on facts and not politics, and
> then accepting conclusions. This debate would examine the total results of
> the WWII carnage in former Yugoslavia and causes of deaths.  
>
> Would you consent to this kind of arbitration?  Could we then consider
> this issue settled?...
><<<
>
>	Academic debate about WWII in Balkans and elsewhere is long over; at
> least as far as the question of who were the friends and who were the
> enemies; who were the butchers, and who were the butchered. No barganing
> about this. The remaining questions are minor and deal with "N-th order
> effects" (see [1] and the references there, or visit the regional office of
> the Simon Wiesenthal Center (NY, Ch, Tor, La) ).	

Yes: we know who did what.  But your postings have contained factually
incorrect information, so I doubt that YOU know what the conclusions
of the academic debate are.  See, for example, the following books:

(6) Wayne Vucinich: "Contemporary Yugoslavia: Twenty Years of Socialist
    Experiment", Univ. of California, 1969.

(7) Stephen Clissold: "A Short History of Yugoslavia", Cambridge Univ.
    Press, 1966

(8) Jozo Tomasevic: "War and Revolution in Yugoslavia, 1941-1945: The
    Chetniks", Stanford University Press, 1975

(9) Milovan Djilas: "Wartime", Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 1977.

>	------
>
>	Petar.

Josip


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