HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mgresham@dscatl.UUCP (Mark Gresham)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: re : recommendations for choral music
Date: 13 Sep 92 04:05:16 GMT
Reply-To: mgresham@dscatl.UUCP (Mark Gresham)
Organization: Digital Systems Co,  Atlanta, Ga

In article <1992Sep10.183037.8797@vax.oxford.ac.uk> wilcox@vax.oxford.ac.uk writes:
>OK, OK. I take this to mean that they are actually more of a chorus than a
>choir, which is not an area I have much knowledge of. (READ: I am an appalling
>snob who thinks that every choir with more than 40 people in it sounds
>precisely the same; in any case I'm not interested, being too pre-occupied with
>my own particular concerns to waste much time on large-scale choral works which
>can be performed on one run-through. ;-)

Frankly, there is good foundation to this observation rather than
mere snobbery.  The larger the chorus, the more *likely* that it
will have an anonymous character, the smaller the more likely the
more the character will be "personal" ad depend on the careful
selection of singers.  Large choruses will differ in sound
according to their preparer, and how much time they have worked
with that preparer.

But don't mistake that large choruses all sound alike.
One can distinguish between the Westminster and St. Olaf choirs in
a flash.  (We have yet to see how Anton Armstrong's tenure as St.
Olaf's director will change that.)  A careful listener will be
able to hear the difference between Atlanta/Shaw and
Chicago/Hillis sounds ... though one is less likely to identify
the sound of the Milwaukee Symphony Chorus which is intentionally
prepared for flexible changes at the last minute to accommodate
whatever orchestral conductor is on the podium.


Cheers,

--Mark Gresham

dscatl!mgresham@gatech.edu

==========================
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: rbrooks1@cc.swarthmore.edu (Rob Brooks)
Subject: Du Pre recital
Organization: Swarthmore College
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 18:09:30 GMT

Yes, I am yet another member of the generation of Jaqueline Du Pre
worshippers.  A few months ago I came across a record of Ms. Du Pre
performing all sorts of short pieces:Kol Nidrei, Schumann Adagio and
Allegro, Fantasy Pieces, etc.  Is this available on CD or will I have to
remain in the dark ages, I mean good old days, to hear this example of her
wonderful playing?

Also, can anyone reccomend a good recording of Mahler 6?  I hear Haitink's
new Berlin Phil recording and Karajan/BPO from the 70's are well worth the
$26.  What about Tennstedt or ("oh god this is so slow") Bernstein.

My apologies to all the Bernstein fans I just insulted.

Rob "Oh damn, not another freshman on the network" Brooks
From: wilcox@vax.oxford.ac.uk
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: need train song recommendations
Date: 7 Sep 92 15:35:27 GMT
Organization: Oxford University VAX 6620

In article <1992Sep4.081901.1295@guvax.georgetown.edu>, mchenry@guvax.georgetown.edu writes:
> Friends:
> 
> I want to make a compilation tape of songs about the railroad or trains or 
> closely related subjects for my 8-year-old nephew. I would like any 
> suggestions. If you think the song suggested has adult themes (such as 
> Springsteen's Downbound Train), then please indicate this. If there is 
> interest I will post the resulting list. Please mail directly to:
> 
If he's an intelligent 8-year-old and you have a detailed map of Britain handy,
there's a wonderful song called The Slow Train by Flanders and Swann---a
lament for the old days of British country Branch Lines. You can always just
enjoy the gorgeous tune and mellifluous words.
-- 

Stephen Wilcox             |   Remember what happened to the dinosaurs!
wilcox@maths.oxford.ac.uk  |    I did---and look what happened to me.
From: blue@cam.nist.gov (Jim_Blue_x3809)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: L'Incoronazione de Poppea
Date: 9 Sep 92 17:48:09 GMT
Organization: National Institute of Standards and Technology, Gaithersburg, MD

A recent posting to the net recommended the Jacobs/Borst/Laurens/Larmore
recording of Monteverdi's  L'Incoronazione de Poppea. I seem to
remember, but cannot find, a recommendation of the Harnancourt
recording. Did I just imagine that? Is the Harnancourt any good?
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: le01167@portal.lasc.lockheed.com (Ron Nadel (x2025))
Subject: Re: Mahler #10 & Cooke
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Lockheed Aeronautical Systems Co. - Rye Canyon
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 19:07:12 GMT

In article <CB.92Sep11094630@tamarack13.timbuk>, cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster) writes...
> 
>I haven't heard Rattle's version of Mahler 10 but was interested that he
>did some further revisions on Cooke's version.  I wonder if he improved
>some of the thin parts that Mark Stackpole identifies.  And have there
>been revisions (to Cooke's version) in addition to Rattle's?

I seem to recall that his changes were very minmal, in some cases changing
a note here and there.  I'll check the liner notes again, but I don't think
he made any major changes.

Ron
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: stefan@sinus.stgt.sub.org (Stefan Bechtold)
Subject: Re: Supertitling
Organization: Sinus Stuttgart, Germany
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 23:18:51 GMT

murray@aristotle.ils.nwu.edu (Thomas Murray) writes:

>With the exception of the major international houses, don't opera
>houses in Germany (and Austria) sing the operas in German (eliminating
>the need for supertitles)? 
The german ones of course, why not ? :-)
But also if they play an italian opera it's always performed in italian,
they don't use translations...




-- 
+ Stefan Bechtold # stefanb@delos.stgt.sub.org # Voice +49 711 813240 +
++++++++sed nemo potuit tangere: merda fuit ! (Martial III 17)+++++++++
From: 6145goldino@vms.csd.mu.edu (Owen Goldin)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: RE: Du Pre Recital
Date: 14 Sep 1992 02:22:41 GMT
Organization: Marquette University - Computer Services
Reply-To: 6145goldino@vms.csd.mu.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: vmsf.csd.mu.edu

Of the recordings of the Mahler 6 that I have heard none have done the slow
movement so powerfully as Solti/CSO.  No other music comes so close to making
me want to cry.

Owen
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: le01167@portal.lasc.lockheed.com (Ron Nadel (x2025))
Subject: Re: Mahler's 10th (from: Beethoven's 10th. Symphony)
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Lockheed Aeronautical Systems Co. - Rye Canyon
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 20:59:10 GMT

In article <CB.92Sep10111951@tamarack13.timbuk>, cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster) writes...

>I've looked at Mahler's original and heard the arguments and listened to
>the result, and I consider this a Mahler symphony.  What else would it
>be--a work of Deryck Cooke's?  Aside from editorial questions, it works.
>I asked Giulini if he had any interest in it and he responded "It's not
                                                                ^^^^^^^^
>Mahler", but to me it is.  I'd like to know other netters' opinions.
 ^^^^^^

Interesting comment from Giulini, who has said many times that there are 
some [totally] Mahler symphonies he would never conduct.

I also like the 10th (the Rattle version of Cooke's 10 year task), and I 
think it is obviously Mahler.  When I play drop the needle - actually we
probably should change this to _position the head_ or something - with
friends, they instantly recognize any movement as Mahler, where most do
not recognize the _resotred_ Beethoven 10th (which I thought was not coming
in for much crticism, but now I see that it has).  

As for you question "What else would it be?", it IS what Cooke himself 
called it, "A *performing* version of Mahler's 10th."

Ron

ps - how did you get to talk to Giulini, by the way?
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: music@moravian.edu (Steve Heller)
Subject: Re: Le Sacre, Stravinski
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 23:39:10 EDT

For those who consider Stravinsky's own interpretations of his works,
consider this: even Stravinsky considered his conducting abilities
quite inferior to the best conductors of his day. His recordings have historic
interest, but I wouldn't consider (m)any of them _definitive_. Some are
quite awful...
-- 
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
#   "Who let all this riff-raff into the room?!?" - The Surrogate Band    #
# Work: music@moravian.edu  <#!AMIGA!#>  Home: moravian.edu!vortex!lothar #
#           [ All opinions are strictly MY OWN! Hands off! ]              #
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
From: nad@cray.com (Ned Deily)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Re: Wagner Weekend and Karajan
Date: 10 Sep 92 04:05:07 GMT

In article <27990093@otter.hpl.hp.com> sec@otter.hpl.hp.com (Simon Crouch) asks:
>Is this a common effect? Those friends of mine who have experienced
>Parsifal have all said it has had a deep effect on them.

Parsifal had a deep effect on me.  The first time I attended a performance
of it was a Met matinee after a very long Friday night (my lost college
years).  Its magic began to work almost immediately.  Were it not
for the redemptive power of the Grail and the "heil'gen Speer" I might
still be dozing away in that orchestra seat.  Thus began a personal prejudice
against Wagner's operas that took a long time to overcome (and, in Parsifal's
case, not yet entirely).

Ned
nad@cray.com
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: re : recommendations for choral music
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 05:26:25 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.183037.8797@vax.oxford.ac.uk> wilcox@vax.oxford.ac.uk writes:
>In article <1992Sep10.141210.23350@Princeton.EDU>, roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:
>> In article <1992Sep9.122159.8776@vax.oxford.ac.uk> wilcox@vax.oxford.ac.uk writes:
>>>In article <8SEP199220025974@eccles.caltech.edu>, inr@eccles.caltech.edu (I. Neill Reid) writes:
>>>> as a follow-up to wilcox@vax.oxford etc etc etc

>>>>  1) I think the original poster meant the Westminster Choir (as in
>>>>  opposite Princeton) - not the Westminster Cathedral Choir. They're
>>>>  pretty fine

>>>Fair enough: it's not a choir which is known over here.

>> A small point: I'm sure that *some* of their dozens of recordings with
>> the NY Phil and Phila. Orch under Bernstein, Stoky, Ormandy, Muti,
>> etc. have been released in England over the last four decades...

>OK, OK. I take this to mean that they are actually more of a chorus than a
>choir, which is not an area I have much knowledge of. (READ: I am an appalling
>snob who thinks that every choir with more than 40 people in it sounds
>precisely the same; in any case I'm not interested, being too pre-occupied with
>my own particular concerns to waste much time on large-scale choral works which
>can be performed on one run-through. ;-)

Ahem.  8-)

Actually, they perform in smaller groups, too.  I remember an evening
of the six Bach motets done in an anachronistic, albeit fascinating
solo/choir/brass/strings arrangement with Wilhelm Ehmann and Frauke 
Haasemann directing.  About 30 choristers, I think.  

After all, these are students who are learning to direct choirs; they
learn quite a variety of things.

>Alternatively, I could have mis-read CD labels: I don't read them all *that*
>closely. (And yes, you're right about US high-school choirs: I avoid them like
>the plague!) 

(I still have bad memories of polluting Westminster Abbey (yes, the one
in London  8-)  ) while touring with my college choir...)

Roger
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: inr@eccles.caltech.edu (I. Neill Reid)
Subject: re: wedding music
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: California Institute of Technology
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 19:29:00 GMT

 Another tuppence worth - one of the ex-members of our madrigal
group got married recently so we sang a couple of pieces at their
(unconventional) wedding -
  Palestrina - Sicut cervus (as the hart pants for water, so doth my
    heart for thee )
  Tallis - If ye love me

 neither directly appertaining to earthly love, but possible of that
interpretation - and Sicut Cervus has a marvellous tenor part!

  and a Dowland piece - which I can't recall, but it was a cheerful one
(which narrows it down to 2 or 3). `Come again' springs to mind, but
that may have been because we discussed it and discarded it as too
open to misinterpretation. Or we may have kept it as open to
misinterpretation. 

 Neill Reid - inr@eccles.caltech.edu
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster)
Subject: Re: Vaughan Williams (was Re: Sibelius 2nd)
In-reply-to: dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA's message of Thu, 10 Sep 1992 18:29:00 GMT
Organization: pubs
	<CB.92Sep9115920@tamarack13.timbuk>
	<1992Sep10.182900.6711@spang.Camosun.BC.CA>
Date: 11 Sep 92 11:11:30 CDT

Deryk Barker writes:

   The Sea Symphony is his first, the London Symphony is the second.

Right you are.  Just to clarify, the series that I meant as the "after"
style is 3 through 6.  I was also thinking the analogy I made (Sibelius
and Vaughan Williams) applies somewhat to Beethoven.  Well, it loosely
applies to almost all composers, in that they first sound more like
their models and predecessors and then go their own direction; but
specifically with a series of symphonies, Beethoven's first two are
still halfway Haydn but the third is, shall we say, extremely Beethoven.

Chris Brewster
cb@cray.com
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: mls@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (mike.siemon)
Subject: Re: Mahler's 5th Symphony by Solti and remastering CDs
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 01:16:39 GMT
Summary: and again

In article <Bu7yzs.E7v@news.udel.edu>, conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad)
writes:

> In article <CB.92Sep4160011@tamarack13.timbuk> cb@tamarack13.timbuk
(Chris Brewster) writes:

> >Karajan never performed in Chicago; 

> Wrong.  I saw him conduct the Berlin Phil there in 1962.

Chris may have meant: with the CSO; I don't recall any guest appearances
with them.  Jon goes on to note just this, along with somethingh I was
unware of, that HvK was not given to ANY such appearances.

I saw him and the Jelly Dougnuts in either '64 or '65, doing the
world's dullest performance of a Brahms symphony (#3, I think)
and was ever thereafter immune to the hype.  I should also note
that Solti was not in Chicago till after I left in '67.  I had the
dubious pleasure of having Martinon as the principal conductor of
the CSO during my time in the Windy City.
-- 
Michael L. Siemon			"I know of nothing -- I suspect
					not even death -- that is so fixed
mls@usl.com				in the present tense as love."
standard disclaimer					-- Jess Anderson
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: steve@fid.morgan.com (Steve Apter)
Subject: Re: John Cage
Organization: Morgan Stanley & Co., New York, NY
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 22:39:44 GMT

In article <w9NHqB1w164w@sys6626.bison.mb.ca> al@sys6626.bison.mb.ca (Haus Der Luge) writes:
> 
>I believe it was Stravinsky who said (and I am unfortuneately forced to 
>paraphrase):   'The epoch that directly proceeds the present is, 
>temporarily, more distant from us than those of centuries ago'.
> 
>I personally believe that, in the long run, Cage will be remembered as 
>possibly one of THE most important composers in history.

Does this claim support or contradict the previous one?

> 
>Haus Der Luge
> 
>
>;--- (Haus Der Luge) a user of sys6626, running waffle 1.64
>;E-mail: al@sys6626.bison.mb.ca
>;system 6626: 63 point west drive, winnipeg manitoba canada R3T 5G8



Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad)
Subject: Re: Mahler's 5th Symphony by Solti and remastering CDs
Organization: University of Delaware
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 20:55:19 GMT

In article <CB.92Sep8115846@tamarack13.timbuk> cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster) writes:

>No, what I meant (I realize this is getting tedious) was, the Berlin
>Phil never visited Chicago during Solti's tenure there 

Ok, but where DID the Berlin Phil appear in the US in the last 25 years?
(That's a real question, I'd like to know.)  New York certainly (though
even there quite rarely).  I seem to remember Washington DC.
Conceivably Boston?  My point is that Chicago was not uniquely neglected
in this respect.  Now your info may be right, and they wanted to come to
Chicago but Solti said no; but the situation is equally well explained
by the BPO's infrequent and NY-based visits, in the absence of more
specific data.

[Me:]
>   First you'll have to convince us there was such a battle.  Maybe there
>   was, but the fictitious nature of your examples doesn't inspire
>   confidence.

>This rivalry was a staple of Chicago music critics when I lived there.

Well, we all know about Sunday arts pages having to come up with crises
and controversies on a regular basis to stay afloat....

>I seem to have my facts wrong concerning Bayreuth, but if there's
>absolutely nothing to this gossip, quite a few people are spinning
>something out of thin air (which wouldn't be the first time in history,
>of course).  

Bingo.

In fact, I am perfectly prepared to believe that there was some ill
feeling between the two.  Indeed, as they were the two most publicized
conductors of their era, I would be surprised if there wasn't.  In any
such situation where the PR industry sets two musicians up as "the top
two," it can get rather nasty even when the two actually like each other
on a personal basis (cf. Tebaldi/Callas, Pavarotti/Domingo); one is
always thinking of the other, "they're always saying (s)he does X better
than me, how unfair."

And of course this can be rationalized back in time too; who knows,
maybe you're right and Solti started thinking to himself "While I was a
suffering refugee, he was living high off the hog"; it's human nature to
try and find an ethically unassailable reason for one's petty jealousy.

All I was saying is that your examples were dubious as "proof" of
anything.  And I definitely don't listen to gossip in musical circles
about the "inside story"; if I did, I'd have seen Fischer-Dieskau die of
leukemia in 1966 (absolutely guaranteed true, I was told), Freni
likewise 10 years later, and so on.  (On the other hand, the way Solti
dumped his mistress and erased her name from all his future concerts,
the moment people started to find out about it, is absolutely gospel
truth and vouched for by a close friend!!  :-):-):-):-):-)  )

Jon Alan Conrad
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: le01167@portal.lasc.lockheed.com (Ron Nadel (x2025))
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Wagner Weekend and Karajan
Date: 8 Sep 92 18:30:36 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Lockheed Aeronautical Systems Co. - Rye Canyon
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

Someone asks:

>> Can *anything* in music rival the gorgeous quintet in Act III
>> of "Die Meistersinger"?
>> Can anything rival the EMI Karajan
>> recording with Helen Donath? 

In light of the other thread of Herb vs. Georg, this recording was
made with an (at the time) East German orchestra, not the BPO.
How does this fit in with Herb's career?

Ron
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Bottom ten operas
From: vnguyen@husc8.harvard.edu (Vinh Nguyen)
Date: 5 Sep 92 18:23:27 EDT
Reply-To: vnguyen@husc8.harvard.edu
Originator: vnguyen@husc8.harvard.edu

In article <34763@cbmvax.commodore.com>, 
givler@bermuda.cbm.commodore.com (Greg Givler) writes:
> In article <kiran.715080111@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> 
kiran@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Kiran Wagle) writes:
>>Ken Sherrill <KSSHC@CUNYVM.BITNET> writes:
>>
>>>The time has come for us to get serious. What ten works should be
>>>dropped from the canon, or at least from the standard international
>>>performing repertory? 
>>>My basic criterion for this list is the "If you can cast them, you can do
>>>something much better" standard -- as opposed to the "I can't sit through
>>>one more routine performance" standard. By the latter criterion, one might

But this is rather unfair: why attack the canon when the fault lies
with the worthless performers we have nowadays who have failed us
miserably in their capacity as guardians of the canon?  Must we drop
Carmen, Traviata, Tristan, Norma, Boris Godunov, etc. simply because
we can't find an adequate cast for them these days?

>>How about the No Musical Merit Whatsoever standard:

Then Philip Glass would sweep the medals in this category!
Arghhhh, it's unnerving to think that he is actually going to
premiere yet another (worthless?) opera of his -- at the MET
this fall!

>>Cav & Pag (Cavalleria Rusticana & I Pagliacci)
> 
> Although I am not a fan of Cavalleria Rusticana, I take exception to
> Pagliacci. It is one of my favorites. The chills that I get when 
> Canio bursts into "No, Pagliaccio non son", did I spell that right. 
> Also the end with "La Comedia e finita" And the orchestra blaring 
> "Ridi Pagliaccio" it is some of the best drama around. Also one 
> of the most beautiful love duets around. Sorry, I don't care 
> what anybody says, it will always be one of my favorites, as will 
> Faust. 
 
AHHHHHH!!!  Thank you!!!  Could I believe my eyes here?????
Somebody actually likes FAUST .... and says so!!!!

>>Anything by Khatchaturian
>>All of Puccini except Turandot
> 
> Then you have never really listened to La Boheme, God what 
> beautiful music.
 
And a great deal more too!

Vinh Nguyen

>>-- 
>>Kiran Wagle     <kiran@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu>     (812) 335-0420
> 
> Greg
> -- 
> Greg Givler                 | "If you're not going to kill me,
> Commodore Product Assurance | I have things to do." - From Darkman
> givler@cbmvax.commodore.com |
> ===============================================================================
Xref: sparky rec.music.classical:12709 alt.exotic-music:495
From: diarmuid@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Diarmuid Pigott)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical,alt.exotic-music
Subject: Re: the tarogato
Date: 12 Sep 1992 18:42:38 +0800
Organization: The University of Westrn Australia
NNTP-Posting-Host: uniwa.uwa.edu.au
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

There is also a story that Stowasser (who created it) was offended at
the big holes on a saxophone, and thought he could do better in a
traditional manner (ie wood, small holes). Well the instrument is
beautiful to play, - like a wooden sax, in fax. The only trouble is that
with the small holes etc it is hard to keep in tune (sop. saxes are all
the time, but this is wild). I've played three t's. One (a Stowasser made
in Chicago of all places) was exquisite, and lovely. The one I got from
RUmania via a f.o.a.f. is horrible. The one I borrowed a while back was
midway between the 2. SAdly the one I own is all I have now.

The man who "discovered" Zamfir and his Syrinx also "discovered" a
tarogota player, whose rumanian name escapes me. He made a recorded of
doina with t. and organ. It is exquisite, and proves that the instrument
deserves a niche.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: smith@honesty.Stanford.EDU (Jeremy Smith)
Subject: Re: Mahler's 5th Symphony by Solti and remastering CDs
Reply-To: smith@honesty.Stanford.EDU.Stanford.EDU (Jeremy Smith)
Organization: Stanford University Computer Science Department
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 00:35:16 GMT

In article <Bu7yzs.E7v@news.udel.edu> conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad) writes:
>
>Oh, you meant "never conducted the Chicago Symphony" (while Solti was
>music director.  True, but so what?  Karajan never guest-conducted 
>anyone else's orchestra ANYwhere.
>

I don't believe your statement is correct.  Karajan conducted the
Orchestra of Paris in Frank's Symphony in D, along with a few other
pieces.

Jeremy.
From: diarmuid@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Diarmuid Pigott)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Parsifal and the taragota
Date: 10 Sep 1992 11:02:38 +0800
Organization: The University of Westrn Australia
NNTP-Posting-Host: uniwa.uwa.edu.au

I believe that the taragota was intended to have a solo part in
Parisfal, but this is normally taken by a cor anglais. Is there a
recording with the taragota? If so, is the recording good in other
departments (ie singing and conducting)?