From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Subject: Re: Age-ism and the gay community
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 92 01:36:35 GMT

In article <1992Dec18.021033.13179@bsu-ucs>
00bbharris@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu (Brandon Harris?) writes:

>Everyone talks about racism....  and sexism....  and, here
>recently, heightism.  But i want alk about something of
>significant importance to me and thousands of other of teh
>gay youth:

>AGEISM!!!

Welcome, I guess, but you know, ageism affects everybody,
and I would have thought, it being nearly 40 years since I
was 18, that it affects older people rather more than
younger ones.  What seems to count right here, though, is
that it's affecting you, so let's respond to that, if we
can.

>I get tired of individuals who assume that because i am my
>age that i act my age.  I am 18 yrs. old.  But i do not act
>immature!

Unlike your eye color or the shape of your hand, maturity is
not something you can see or measure or assess in that way,
I would say.  So the question you're looking at seems to me
less one of maturity, or even of your chronological age,
than of having a chance to interact with other people as you
are, without being prejudged on account of factors over
which you have no control.

But consider, too, that just as you might be less interested
in a person who's 14, a person who's 22 might -- on account
of the age difference alone -- be less interested in you.
Some things just *are*, and despite appearances, not all
such things are ageism.

When I was 18, I took up with a guy who was 22, and we had a
fairly happy three years together, though the end was pretty
awful.  At the time I would never in a million years have
admitted it, but looking back it's very easy to see that I
was in fact very inexperienced, very full of myself, and so
on.  I had mostly my physical energy and my good looks going
for me, and (now I see) not a whole lot else.

For better or for worse, I think we have to go with what we
have, with who we are just now, with who's out there in the
world just now.  It's more or less impossible to sell the idea
of being patient to an 18-year-old, as I well recall, but it's
quite easy -- now -- to see how useful patience is.

>Why is the criteria for gay men over the age of 21 is to
>find a man over the age of 21?  Why must they assume that i
>am too immature for them?

While this may be difficult to bear -- when it happens --
it's also true that it doesn't *always* happen.  So maybe
you can take it as it comes, letting the problem cases just
slide past, the way water gets downstream past a rock.  For
one thing, doing that is a step in the direction of greater
maturity, however much you have at the moment.

This last point arises becauses of what you say next,
actually.

>Is it the same way with gay women (sorry, i hate the term
>'lesbian')?

A mature man realizes that what lesbians call themselves is
up to lesbians, and that such pronouncements as the one you
just made are insulting and unnecessary.  Maturity is to a
very significant degree a matter of contact, sensitivity,
awareness, and alert responsiveness to the context in which
one finds oneself.  Soc.motss is a place where there are
many lesbian voices, some of which women greatly prefer the
term "lesbian" to all other alternatives.  Other women here
don't mind the term "gay" being applied to them, but some
do.  No woman, however, needs to hear men offering
gratuitous opinions condemning a term with which millions of
other women are completely comfortable.

From what you say, Brandon (I don't have the slightest idea
why, but I've always thought that was a terrific name, by the way),
you yourself recognize that learning takes a long time.

>Why must age really matter in a relationship if the two
>consenting individuals are within reasonable and legal
>boundries and really care for each other and enjoy the mere
>prescence of one another?

As you probably know, in many cases it doesn't matter at
all, and people with just the attributes you mention get
along together fabulously well.

>Maybe it's that impracticality, if yo will, that signifies
>my immaturity and my substantial unattractiveness to those
>older gay males.  If so, excuse me maybe i just need to grow
>up abit more.

You're excused (say I, loftily :-).  Growing up, ideally,
takes the rest of your life, because if you're lucky (I
think), each new day brings you fresh opportunities to
experience life, other people, other situations, and
(importantly in our present context) yourself.

>This is not a bitch-bitch-moan-moan-gripe-gripe- letter so
>please don't respond accordingly.  I just really want to
>know why this sort of Age-ism exist within the gay
>community.  As oppressed as we are as a whole, why would we
>in turn suppress another group for something we cannot help.

I think this is a good thing to be concerned about, of
course.  You know (or shortly will, probably) that there are
voices here that are quite close to your own age, and maybe
they will come forth to share their views on the subjects
you raise.

-- 
[Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin]
[Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson]
[Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888]
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