HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cyc@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Yi-Chieh Chang)
Subject: Re: Election in Taiwan
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 00:25:36 GMT

>>People are giving too much credit for "Democracy". It is not an ideal world
>>, any weakening effect on China is a lose for Chinese and a gain for somebody
>>in this world who wants Chinese down. If you are sensitive enough and monitor some
>>westen media long enough, you will see "democracy" rhetoric is only a 
>>camouflag for them. It is the same thing as hundred years ago , 
>>"christianization" by the West. That the government has more, drect, immediate 
>>accountability is always wanted. But when you talk about "demo", which one?

Of cause 'democarcy' is a westerners idea and concept, but we can't deny
the fact that most of the developed countries in this world are very
democratic for many years. And generally, people choose good things and get
rid of bad stuffs. As long as 'Chinese' are not stupid enough, they will
choose good stuffs from everywhere and get rid of those bad, garbage 
Chinese traditions.

>>Can I declare my apartment to be independent, my county, my province, if I want
>>to? It is a relative concept. 

Yes, you certainly can if the laws allow you to do that. The law that
governs countries is the international law which allows each country to
choose its own future and prevent other countries intervening, such as
military attack, etc. If the law in your country allows you to claim 
independent for whatever you want, you got it.

Democracy doesn't mean do whatever you want, it means do whatever the laws
allow you to do and no more no less. The trick part is no more no less, so
if the law allows you to do something you have every right to do it and its
nobody else's business. This principal exactly applies to Taiwan
independence, because the international law says that. Whether you want 
to claim the independence of your apartment, county, or province, please
consult your country's law, its none of my or anybody else's business.
See, its that simple for democarcy. So, then its obvious that if a country
can claim independence DEFINITELY cannot apply to the cases of claiming  
independence of your apartment, county, or province, etc, BECAUSE, these
issues are governed by different LAWS. Can't you see that ?

Yi-Chieh
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: changhp@engin.umich.edu (Hsiou-Ping Chang)
Subject: Stereotype of TIers
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 92 01:55:40 EST
Organization: The University of Michigan
Reply-To: echang@engin.umich.edu
Originator: changhp@fijan.engin.umich.edu


In article <Bzoyqs.KqG@austin.ibm.com>, tylee@leety.austin.ibm.com (Ty Lee) writes:
> 
> What a joke! TIers want to be treated equally with what Sun did.
> To me, those terrors (by TIers, of course) involved many people's lives,
> families, and friends, how could you say it so lightly? Do you have any
> human lineage in your body? Just let me understand your mentality
> behind this. You speak like a CNP spy, don't you?
> 
	Could you give the netters some examples to sustain your
arguments you seemed to imply that MOST (if not ALL) of the TIers,
Pro-TIers are terrorists.  
Please cite your resources and evidences.  I suspect the stereotyped
terrorist image of TIers has been the product of the KMT propaganda.
If TIers are terrorists, why so many victims of so called "Formosa Event"
get elected in the past elections, including the recent one Mr. Shih Ming-Teh?
	As Taiwan progresses toward democracy, it is very important to
tolerate different opinions and support the right to propose different ideas.
Please don't label some people as terrorists easily just because they
have different views from you.  

> I would suggest you bravely dig out the past terrors did
> by the TI terrorists. That will prevent you from being small-minded and
> please no re-run of the CNP terrors. We all know too well about it,
> what we lack of knowledge is the terrors by TI.

	I would suggest you bravely dig out the past terrors did by
KMT, although I believe some of my friends who are KMT are not bad at all.
 
> -- 
> /* The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of IBM's.         *\
>  * Take care and have a nice day.                                            *
> \* Ty Lee                                                                    */
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: cshi@cs.ulowell.edu (Chunde Shi)
Subject: Re: Election in Taiwan
Organization: University of Massachusetts at Lowell Computer Science
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 23:39:07 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.135030.8236@zip.eecs.umich.edu> joy@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Chien-Chung Chen) writes:
>In article <BzLtBK.IKz@ulowell.ulowell.edu> cshi@cs.ulowell.edu (Chunde Shi) writes:
>>People are giving too much credit for "Democracy". It is not an ideal world
>>, any weakening effect on China is a lose for Chinese and a gain for somebody
>>in this world who wants Chinese down. If you are sensitive enough and monitor some
>>westen media long enough, you will see "democracy" rhetoric is only a 
>>camouflag for them. It is the same thing as hundred years ago , 
>>"christianization" by the West. That the government has more, drect, immediate 
>>accountability is always wanted. But when you talk about "demo", which one?
>>Can I declare my apartment to be independent, my county, my province, if I want
>>to? It is a relative concept. 
>
>Geez, sounds like democracy is the poison that we Chinese/Taiwanese should
>try to avoid. Dr. Sun is weeping under the ground. Can you hear?
>
>You are the second person I know who objects democracy on SCT.
                                      ****************
                             Do not simplify!
>
>-- Chien-Chung Chen


Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: u333057@twncu865.ncu.edu.tw
Subject: We Taiwanese had chosen our own legislators!
Organization: Computer Center, NCU, Taiwan, R.O.C.
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 18:50:05 GMT

   The legislature general election had been ended last Sat.The KMT lost this election & the DPP won this election.Taiwanese had chosen which government they like by their own.When will you Chinese could chose your own government really by your own?
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: tylee@leety.austin.ibm.com (Ty Lee)
Subject: TI Terrorisms (was Re: Election in Taiwan)
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 06:13:57 GMT
Organization: IBM, Austin

In article <1992Dec24.003832.2406@cbnews.cb.att.com> liaohen@cbnews.cb.att.com (Heng-Hsin Liao) writes:
>
>Unfortunately, you still missed what happened to Taiwan after WWII to
>1947.
>

No, I didn't miss anything. Again, the evidences show me the ponit I made.

>Tell me Dr. Sun and his gangs' act is violent or not.
>

Sun has due reason to overthrow the corrupted Ching dynasty. I don't see any due
reason to replace the current government with an equally cumbersome, ignorant,
mobbish, vote-buying, scandal-ridden TI lunatics.

>
>You cannot just accuse anybody killed somebody without proof. You are
>kind of losing your control. Please correct my "rediculous" statement with
>evidence, okay? Mr. Cheng and Mr. Jan killed themselves. They did NOT
>kill anybody ELSE. And nobody else killed them. If you still don't buy
>it, then tell me whether there was anybody being accused of killing
>them.
>

I didn't accuse TI terrorists. I am not a prosecutor (chuckle :)) and I state
that according the source I read. I have to explain it again. They were 
inflamed involuntarily. 

>
>I have no problem with that. I may be wrong. I think I know you better
>- a person who likes to humiliate somebody else because he/she is
>wrong. What can I say?
>

Probably I was talking to a phantom who uses phony internet address.

>
>Heng-Hsin
>


-- 
/* The opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of IBM's.         *\
 * Take care and have a nice day.                                            *
\* Ty Lee                                                                    */
From: joy@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Chien-Chung Chen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re: more than 50% support TI
Date: 31 Dec 92 21:35:44 GMT
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor

In article <1992Dec31.195407.6214@cbnews.cb.att.com> liaohen@cbnews.cb.att.com (Heng-Hsin Liao) writes:
>Fighting each other is not so negative as long as everybody respects
>anybody else. To fight for a better way toward the future and to let
>everybody know somebody else's opinion is not bad at all to me.
>We know things won't be so perfect. However, we need to cooperate.
>If not so, it doesn't matter independence or unification, Taiwan will
>not be in a good shape.

Agree.

>After unification, assuming Taiwan is a province of China, Taiwan won't
>be anymore a "political entity." There is no reentrance issue since
>China is already standing still in the international society. 20 million
>people get back to international society because they become people in
>China. Question is do we get our fair share or not? Why they treat HK
>with no respect even before they get it back?

I don't like today's China government, either. So I'm against the idea
of immediate unification.

>When China will become a democratic country is out of Taiwan's control.
>Do we want to keep "status quo" all the time and anticipate that the
>day will come at last? In my opinion, before China becomes a
>democratic country, the separation of several provinces is quite
>possible.

If your prediction about China's splitting is correct, then why don't
we keep "status quo" and wait a little longer? When China splits into
several parts, the risk of war that Taiwan takes in declaring independence
will be much smaller. :)

China is changing rapidly now. I don't know whether China's democracy will
come or not. Before we turn our back to China, why don't we wait a little
longer and give it a chance? The wait may be worthwhile. At least, we don't
have to face immediate hostility from China now.

-- Chien-Chung Chen
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: joy@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Chien-Chung Chen)
Subject: Re: more than 50% support TI
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 01:18:54 GMT

In article <C05C0y.4BC@ulowell.ulowell.edu> cshi@cs.ulowell.edu (Chunde Shi) writes:
>In article <1992Dec31.053308.17774@zip.eecs.umich.edu> joy@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Chien-Chung Chen) writes:
>>Another battle between East and West civilization? Don't you think you
>>stretch your imagination a little bit too wild? If Taiwan's people don't
>>want the war, no Western country can talk us into one. If Taiwan's people
>>decide to seek independence, it's by our own decision, not by others'.
>>Why should Taiwan Independence have anything to do with Wetern Imperialism?
>Not so! When I saw a TV show hosted by William Buckley Jr, on Fire Line with
>major Taiwan officials: Foreign Minister, Gvt SpokesMan, and MandLand Cmmte Vice
>director. I was astonished about how naive those officials are, how much
>the capability Buckley posses to mainipulate them.

[HaHaHa... Cough... HaHaHa... Cough...]

Oh, please, please stop it. I can't take it anymore. ROC's policy-making
officials manipulated by Buckley? So we Taiwanese need CCP's troop to save
us from stupidity? HaHaHa...

Thanks for providing such a good joke in this New Year Eve.

Happy New Year.

-- Chien-Chung Chen
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: cshi@cs.ulowell.edu (Chunde Shi)
Subject: Re: China(was More than 50% support TI)
Organization: University of Massachusetts at Lowell Computer Science
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 01:04:40 GMT

In article <1993Jan3.221529.6807@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> nlu@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) writes:
>In article <C0AIrG.3p6@ulowell.ulowell.edu> cshi@cs.ulowell.edu (Chunde Shi) writes:
>>Harvest fluctuation resulted from climate change or war. China had one of
>				   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>oldest written language, those famine were recorded. Other parts of world
>
>I guess that tells something about the fertility of the land...  You can
Do not twist!
Give your indication:
  China's current grain, meat production ranks number  1 in the world.
China has land that can produce  three harvests of rice and one harvest of
weeds for fertilizer.

It is not you people(in Taiwan and West)'s invention to belittle the openent.
Please take a look at other side of  story besides the one you got from your
surrendings.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: liaohen@cbnews.cb.att.com (Heng-Hsin Liao)
Subject: Re: more than 50% support TI
Organization: AT&T Bell Lab
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 19:54:07 GMT

From article <1992Dec31.181729.19093@zip.eecs.umich.edu>, by joy@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Chien-Chung Chen):
> 
> Sometimes I do feel having brain individually doesn't mean having brain
> in ensemble. Individually we look smart. But, we don't cooperate. We fight
> each other. Even here on SCT. :)  Well, I still don't feel optimistic.
>  

Fighting each other is not so negative as long as everybody respects
anybody else. To fight for a better way toward the future and to let
everybody know somebody else's opinion is not bad at all to me.
We know things won't be so perfect. However, we need to cooperate.
If not so, it doesn't matter independence or unification, Taiwan will
not be in a good shape.

> ... 
>>Whether someone can introduce a better reason and a better way?
> 
> Unification. :)  (Unification is a form of cooperation.)
> But only after China becomes a democratic country.
> 
> -- Chien-Chung Chen

After unification, assuming Taiwan is a province of China, Taiwan won't
be anymore a "political entity." There is no reentrance issue since
China is already standing still in the international society. 20 million
people get back to international society because they become people in
China. Question is do we get our fair share or not? Why they treat HK
with no respect even before they get it back?

When China will become a democratic country is out of Taiwan's control.
Do we want to keep "status quo" all the time and anticipate that the
day will come at last? In my opinion, before China becomes a
democratic country, the separation of several provinces is quite
possible.

Heng-Hsin

Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: joy@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Chien-Chung Chen)
Subject: Re: Is TI so rossy?
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 14:41:48 GMT

In article <1993Jan2.233229.13167@topaz.ucq.edu.au> huangz@topaz.ucq.edu.au writes:
>	(It is funny to notice some netter talking about Taiwan's democracy 
>as if Taiwan is a grand master of it. In your eyes, Taiwan has been enjoying
>democracy for 43 years; in my eyes, 5 years; in a western's eyes, 1 month
>only!!! You are still a baby, don't try to show off your mulstle.)       
>

I hope this "some netter" doesn't mean me. Well, I guess nobody else
would take it, so...

I believe democracy cannot come for free. It may come from revolution (like
France), or set up by alien force (like Japan) or through graduate transition
(like Taiwan). The process is painful and costly. Taiwan has come a long way
to get close to it. I do appreciate the democratic status we've achieved
because it's earned inch by inch.

Indeed there is still a long way for Taiwan's democracy to go. But please
do not belittle Taiwan's democracy. A baby does not have muscle, but it's
happy that it's born. Shouldn't China try to catch up by conceiving one?

-- Chien-Chung Chen
From: ericlaw@vax.cns.muskingum.edu (Eric Law, Geology Department)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re:    HATE EACH OTHER ? TIME FOR TIAWAN INDEPENDENCE
Date: 24 Dec 92 15:45:29 GMT
Organization: Muskingum College

In article <1992Dec22.191259.402@zip.eecs.umich.edu>, cyc@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Yi-Chieh Chang) writes:
>>	   "Freedom" is a troublesome word. So, whatever attached to
>>	   this word may cause trouble. The real problem is not 
>>	   on freedom, but on the evil nature of man. With a little
>>	   bit education, people can make a white thing look gray and make
>>	   a black thing appear to be white. This can be called the
>>	   side-effect of Freedom of Speech which is absolute the 
>>	   creation of Devil.  
>>
> 
> Tell us who can decide the gray, black, white, or even evil ?

> There is no problem on 'freedom of speech', but the problem is people must
> be educated to judge from gray, black, white, or evil, not to be told or
> brainwashed to accept one idea.

> If, everybody are as smart as you are, who can fool people around by
> telling black out of white ?

> That's why democracy and freedom work best on developed countries, but may 
> be as bad as dictatorship in underdeveloped countries, such as China and
> Phillipine.
> 
> Yi-Chieh

	** Nice argument, YC. But not good enough.

	   The problem is: nobody can be educated enough to see through
	   everything. The smartest guy can also be cheated easily. 
	   Most populations are not well educated and informed. That
	   is why Confucius said: Min2 Ker3 S3 You2 Tz1 (people can be
	   made obey). People can NEVER be educated well enough to 
	   understand what are politicians doing and saying.

	   Nobody can tell if a thing is really black, white or gray. 
	   However, all educated people can mess around and try to
	   change the color of things.

	   That is why "Freedom of Speech" is not necessary good. If
	   we have Evil dominates one society, that is too bad. If we
	   have Saint dominates another society, Amen.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: xinjin@athena.mit.edu (Xinjin Zhao)
Subject:  Chinese-Japanese and Japanese-Chinese Dictionary
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 16:42:33 GMT

I am looking for a set of good Chinese-Japanese and Japanese-Chinese dictionaries,
preferably published in Japan (Iwanomi(?) would be good).  Could anybody out
there tell me where I can buy them, either by mail-order or at bookstore?

Thank you very much for help.  Please reply to this account if you could.

  ############################################################################
  #|__      o                   XINJIN ZHAO                               __|#
  #| M                  77 Mass Ave., Room 66-565                         M |#
  #             |\           Cambridge, MA 02139          O         Q        #
  #              \O           (617)253-6448(o)          / /\_     _/\ \_     #
  #               |           (617)577-9784(h)          |\   o       /|      #
  #              /|    E-mail:  xinjin@athena.mit.edu  / /          |  \     #
  #             | |                                                          #
  ######################## GO CELTICS! THE BEST ##############################
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: cyc@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Yi-Chieh Chang)
Subject: Re: Election in Taiwan
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 16:09:26 GMT

>>>When "36%" became a "big win", I thought it was less than 50% and minority.
>>>I could be wrong. You got to be ready to hear anything when you talk to TIers.
>>
>>Well, for the DPP (which I don't support, anyway), 36% is a big win, since it
>>means the smallest share of vote ever (I believe) for the Nationalist Party.
>>"Win" and "loss" are relative here; for the Japanese Socialist party, for
>>example, 40% will be a huge win.
>>
>>What is alarming (for the KMT, that is) is that for the first time ever, the
>>DPP got more than 50% vote in several districts/counties/municipalities.
>>In the northern district of Taipei, for example, the DPP carried a majority.
>>The only seat in Chiayi also went to DPP.
>If it is that dangerously close to TI(if DDP win). Why in the hell KMT is still
>reluctant to have direct dialog with CCP?
>KMT may have to bear full responsibility if DDP win in the future for missing 
>the opertunity for unification. bloodshed will be certainly the outcome for TI,
>sooner or later.
>

Every country formed in this world cannot avoid bloodshed unfortunately.
Even given the birth to a baby can't avoid bloodshed, so why are you so 
afraid of bloodshed ? If so, I don't think you can even have a child.
Besides, who can guarantee that there won't be bloodshed if KMT united with
CCP ? In fact, there may be lot more bloodshed if CCP come to Taiwan.
So, man, forget about CCP, its history in Taiwan.

Yi-Chieh
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.korean
From: lim@rani.chem.yale.edu (Dongchul Lim)
Subject: Re: Korean product boycott in Taiwan
Organization: Yale University
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1992 23:51:46 GMT

wcn@cs.brown.edu (Wen-Chun Ni) writes:
: In article <1992Dec24.193209.10976@news.acns.nwu.edu> phantom@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (James Choi) writes:
: >
: >I am curious how well the boycott of Korean product is working in Taiwan
: >these days.  As I recall, there has been several reports on cancellation of
: >trip to Korea, no customers in Korean car dealers, etc.
: >
: >From what I observed in Korea (usually against Japanese products), such
: >emotion based boycott NEVER works.  Within a few months, regardless of the
: >magnitude and reason of the boycott, it is business as usual.
: >
: >I am wondering if Taiwanese are any different in this regard.
: >
: >Sincerely.
: >
: >James Choi
: 
: 
: Hey Hey Hey. Are Korean products supposed to be the same quality as
: Japanese ones? I don't think so. Boycotting Korean products is *much*
: easier than boycotting Japanese products. Period.
: 
: 
: 
: Wen-Chun Ni, wcn@cs.brown.edu         (401) 863-7669
: -------------------------------------------------------------------
:  I do more after 2 a.m. than most people do all day.
: 			 - from a T-shirt given by a friend.


It doesn't matter whether boycotting korean products is working in
Taiwan or not. China is a much bigger potential market than taiwan.
Didn't the policy makers have this in mind?
At least Korea didn't dump taiwan earlier than Japan did.
get a life!
-DCL

--
********************************************************************
* Dongchul Lim                   | Phone (203) 432-6288            *
* Dept. of Chemistry, Yale Univ. | Email: lim@rani.chem.yale.edu   *
* 225 Prospect Street            |            (130.132.25.65)      *
* New Haven, CT 06511            |                                 *
********************************************************************
From: ericlaw@vax.cns.muskingum.edu (Eric Law, Geology Department)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
Subject: Re: We Taiwanese had chosen our own legislators!
Date: 24 Dec 92 15:48:28 GMT
Organization: Muskingum College

In article <23DEC92.10500591@twncu865.ncu.edu.tw>, u333057@twncu865.ncu.edu.tw writes:
>    The legislature general election had been ended last Sat.The KMT lost this election & the DPP won this election.Taiwanese had chosen which government they like by their own.When will you Chinese could chose your own government really by your own?

	** It is already chosen, long time ago.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan
From: mtl@cs.brown.edu 
Subject: Re: Excellence, Made in Taiwan
Organization: Brown Computer Science Dept.
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 14:45:39 GMT

In article <8Ka=Jq+@engin.umich.edu>, changhp@engin.umich.edu (Hsiou-Ping Chang) writes:
|> 
|> "Excellence, Made in Taiwan."  An interesting article. Check it out if you
|>  are interested in.

	Excellence! So, where is it?

	
Newsgroups: soc.culture.taiwan