Original_To:  CHRISTIA
Original_cc:  HUTTER
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 10:00:00 N
From:         Wolfgang Hutter <HUTTER@DULRUU51.BITNET>
Subject:      Re>Absolution

In a message of Thu, 10 Sep 1992 18:37:57 GMT
Received on Fri, 11 Sep 92 05:35 N
Steve Creps <creps@SILVER.UCS.INDIANA.EDU> wrote:

>In article <CHRISTIA%92091005013185@ASUACAD.BITNET> Wolfgang Hutter
><HUTTER@DULRUU51.BITNET> writes:
>>So here is my question. How do you know that a RC 'truly believes God
>>wants him to confess his sins to a priest'? There are many RC's that I
>>know who doubt the virgin birth of Jesus, the transsubstantiation or
>>other doctrines of the RCC. So I would presume that there are indeed RC
>>Christians who don't believe it to be necessary to confess to a priest.
>
>   Technically speaking, such Catholics are heretics.  One who does
>not believe these things has two valid choices: 1) try to find the
>faith necessary to believe them, or 2) leave the Catholic Church.
>Often they choose 3) remain in the Church while rejecting her basic
>doctrines.  In my opinion, this is living a lie.

If I take what you say seriously as a 'faithful Protestant' who believes
these doctrines to be not true (rules out possibility #1) then I'll have
to advise my RC friends who fall under #3 to leave the Catholic Church
in order to keep them from sinning... I fear that most priests I know
would not be pleased with this approach since they would lose great
portions of their flock!

>The teaching goes something like
>this: one is morally obligated to be in the church he considers to be
>the true Church.  A Catholic who does not believe the Catholic Church
>to be the true Church commits serious sin by remaining in the Church
>(see "living a lie" above).  Since the Catholic Church teaches she is
>the true Church, and teaches other dogmas as true, one who believes
>her to be the true Church must also accept her dogmas.  One who
>rejects her dogmas thereby rejects that she is the true Church.
>Therefore, he commits serious sin by remaining in a church he does not
>consider true.

This would have very drastic effects. And indeed some of the statements
of the Council of Trent appear in a different light when apllying this.
Let's take the dogma of transsubstantiation (or the infallibility of the
Pope, or whatever you want). I know lots of people who are members of
the RCC, but reject these dogmas. (Maybe you've heard of Drewermann in
Germany who even denies the resurrection and who finds quite some
support from RC Christians). They honestly believe these doctrines to be
false but see no reason to leave the Church. So these people are guilty
of the formal sin of hypocrisy. And so they either are damned (isn't this
the original meaning of 'anathema') or have to be excommunicated in
order to prevent anything worse. This is quite different from the
approach the Anglican (?) church seems to take as I have gathered from
the discussion about Bishop Spong.

>>* if it means 'to know that the Sacrament of Penance is part of Christ's
>>  law' then this should exclude me from receiving forgiveness, beacuse I
>>  was told so by my RC brothers (I indentified them all as male) over and
>>  over again.
>
>   I think, rather, that you still are considered inculpably ignorant.
>You have, in fact, already learned teachings that contradict the
>Catholic Church.  Just being told otherwise will not _make_ you
>believe.

It seems to be safer outside the Catholic Church than inside! ;-)

>   Finally, I'd like to add that this discussion totally ignores the
>grace that God gives in addition to His forgiveness.  This grace can
>be given only by confessing to a priest.  That is the advantage of
>going to confession, no matter what the penitent believes.

This reminds me of a joke I've heard: A man enters the office of his
friend and finds a horseshoe on the wall. "I thought you don't believe
in that kind of thing", he says. "I don't", his friend answers, "but I
was told that it works even if you don't believe in it."

Thanks for your patience in explaining!

Wolfgang <><
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