From: hakim@bigq.enet.dec.com (Kamran Hakim)
Subject: Re: Am I a Compu-evengalist
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 13:53:50 GMT


J.Ainikkal@massey.ac.nz (J. Ainikkal), you write:

JA>My apologies for making adverse statements about your faith. I was
JA>just getting a bit wary of Mr A and his articles. 

No need for apologies my friend. I appreciate the tone of your reply.

JA>I must say that
JA>they were/are a bit irritating (most articles praising
JA>faiths/ religions are to me - irritating) and I had to voice my
JA>opinion. 

This is certainly your right. I expect you to voice your opinion, and it
is my moral responsibility to respect you as a person even if I disagree
with your opinion, which in this case I DO NOT.

JA>I am sure, U being Bah'ai, will have no objections against
JA>that.

The only objection I might have in such an exchange is the language
used. It is fine to display one's displeasure and criticize another's 
actions without using bad language.

JA>Conversion does not always take place forcibly. Rajneesh did not
                                         ^^^^^^^^           ^^^^^^^
JA>convert anyone forcibly. 
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

There are books that are written on this subject. Force is used in one 
way or another for bringing about the transformation and retaining the 
transformed state. The nature of this force is in itself the subject of
a separate discussion. As a general rule nothing happens without spending 
energy, be it a physical task, or a personal or societal change. The point
I was making is that writing about an issue in a place such as an electronic
forum, where you have the choice to read or skip it minimizes the possibility
of forcible conversion beyond concern. While I agree that it would cause 
irritation beyond description.

JA>In no way am I trying to compare here :)
JA>but I have to bring to your notice my opinion of religion.

I understand, and I appreciate the point you are making.

JA>If a religion has arguments which prey on the weak, to help them
JA>meet their needs of self protection and self preservation (using
JA>Buddism here?) then these arguments are a form of 'coercion in
JA>conversion'. 

NO religion (i.e. philosophy of life) is, in my opinion, in the business of 
self protection and self preservation including Buddhism. I'd submit that
there have existed religious individuals who have preyed on human weakness
for personal gain. Religion appears to fulfill several roles in human life,
few of which I mention here:

1- It offers a goal to the individual to work toward (i.e. "To know God,
   love God and worship God.")

2- It offers a goal for the society to work towards (i.e. "To bring about
   an ever advancing civilization.")

3- It challenges the human potential on a personal level to induce growth
   (i.e. "To obtain virtues.")

4- To prepare one for the life beyond (i.e. as the fetus develops the power
   of senses in the world of the matrix to be used in this world, we need
   to develop certain spiritual characteristics in this life to be used in
   the life beyond.)

5- Etc... (I will not mention these here for the sake of brevity.)

Abdu'l-Baha makes the following observation about religion which I find 
relevant to this discussion:

"It is true that there are foolish individuals [i.e. Voltair, who wrote 
a great number of books attacking religions.] who have never properly
examined the fundamentals of Divine religions, who have taken as their 
criterion the behavior of a few religious hypocrites and measured all 
religious persons by that yardstick, and have on this account concluded 
that religions are an obstacle to progress, a divisive factor and a cause 
of malevolence and enmity among peoples. They have not even observed this 
much, that the principals of the Divine religions can hardly be evaluated 
by the acts of those who only claim to follow them. For every excellent 
thing, peerless though it may be, can still be diverted to the wrong ends. 
A lighted lamp in the hands of an ignorant child or of the blind will not 
dispel the surrounding darkness nor light up the house -it will set both 
the bearer and the house on fire. Can we, in such an instance, blame the 
lamp? No, by the Lord God! To the seeing, a lamp is a guide and will show 
him his path; but it is a disaster to the blind."

				The Secret of Divine Civilization

>Such coercion is called 'the fear of god'. A's message
>is good - his solution - The Bah'ai Faith - To me that is coercion
>by preying on society's weakness for 'good'.

It is true that "Fear of God" is a factor discussed in several religions
including the Baha'i Faith. However, such a concept and other beliefs DO 
NOT, in my opinion, prey on society's weakness, but on the contrary 
STRENGHTEN ITS VERY FOUNDATION. Clearly the health and proper functioning 
of a society depends on certain abilities of its members. Once again this
issue is addressed by Abdu'l-Baha in the Secret of Divine Civilization:

"...any agency whatever, though it be the instrument of mankind's 
greatest good, is capable of misuse. Its proper use or abuse depends 
on the varying degrees of enlightenment, capacity, faith, honesty, 
                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
devotion and highmindedness of the leaders of public opinion." 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

He, reiterates on this theme further in the same book:

"Sincerity is the foundation-stone of faith. That is, a religious 
individual must disregard his personal desires and seek whatever way he 
can wholeheartedly to serve the public interest; and it is impossible 
for a human being to turn aside from his own selfish advantages and 
sacrifice his own good for the good of the community except through 
true religious faith. For self-love is kneaded into the very clay of 
man, and it is not possible that, without any hope of substantial 
reward, he should neglect his own present material good. That individual, 
however who puts his faith in God and believes in the words of God 
-because he is promised and certain of a plentiful reward in the next 
life, and because worldly benefits as compared to abiding joy and glory 
of future planes of existence are nothing to him- will for the sake of 
God abandon his own peace and profit and will freely consecrate his heart 
and soul to the common good. `A man, too, there is who selleth his very 
self out of desire to please God.' [Qur'an 2:203 Here Abdu'l-Baha quotes
from the Qur'an since his audience were Muslims.]

There are those who imagine that an innate sense of human dignity will 
prevent man from committing evil actions and insures his spiritual and 
material perfection. That is, that an individual who is characterized 
with natural intelligence, high resolve, and driving zeal, will without 
any consideration for the severe punishment consequent on evil acts, or 
for  the great rewards of righteousness, instinctively refrain from 
inflicting harm on his fellow men and will hunger and thirst to do good. 
And yet, if we ponder the lessons of history it will become evident that 
this very sense of honor and dignity is itself one of the bounties of  
deriving from instructions of the Prophets of God. We also observe in 
infants the signs of aggression and lawlessness, and that if a child is 
deprived of a teacher's instructions his undesirable qualities increase 
from one moment to the next. It is therefore clear that the emergence of 
this natural sense of human dignity and honor is the result of education. 
Secondly, even if we grant for the sake of argument that instinctive 
intelligence and an innate moral quality would prevent wrongdoing, it is 
obvious that individuals so characterized are as rare as the philosopher's 
stone. An assumption of this sort can not be validated by mere words, it 
must be supported by the facts. Let us see what power in creation impels 
the masses toward righteous aims and deeds!

Aside from this, if that rare individual who does exemplify such a faculty 
should also become a embodiment of the fear of God, it is certain that his
striving toward righteousness would be strongly reinforced.

Universal benefits derive from the grace of the Divine religions, for they 
lead their true followers to sincerity of intent, to high purpose, to purity 
and spotless honor, to surpassing kindness and compassion, to the keeping 
of their covenants when they have covenanted, to concern for the rights of 
others, to liberality, to justice in every aspect of life, to humanity and 
philanthropy, to valor and to unflagging  efforts in the service of mankind. 
It is religion, to sum up, which produces all human virtues, and it is these 
virtues which are the bright candles of civilization."

				The Secret of Divine Civilization
					    Abdu'l-Baha

JA>Your faith - uses 'peace', 'love' and other philosophical arguments
JA>as 'tools' of conversion. Not very different from some other
JA>religions - except that some of the Bah'ai philosophies are more
JA>palatable today.

I do not believe that you or anyone else deny the fact that `peace',
`love', `justice', etc... are all factors which are fundamental to
the functioning of a society. Actually `peace' is the goal for 
democratic movements throughout the globe. And, `justice' is the goal
behind human uprising.

The point which appears to have scaped your attention is that in order 
for these factors to be realized in a society certain number of EMPIRICAL 
PREMISES or, fundamental assumptions, must exist based on which the human 
mind could, either by the virtue of "deductive" and "inductive" reasoning, 
define and understand such concepts as `love', `peace', `justice', etc... 
in an appropriate context. 

Religion has historically been a successful source for dictating these 
empirical premises which you identify as "tools for conversion". A close 
examination of this issue would clearly demonstrate that such empirical 
premises COULD NOT possibly be agreed upon and implemented by the virtue 
of legislation. 

Hindu Scriptures and the Buddhist Scriptures have historically offered 
these premises in India and much of central and south-east Asia. Jewish 
Faith, Christianity and Islam have historically supplied the same for 
the areas within which they influenced. The Baha'i Faith is supplying 
such definitions for the global society.

JA>I must reiterate that I can understand  and I have no problems with
JA>U or Mr A voicing your opinions/beliefs - I hope U have no problems
JA>with me voicing mine.

Truth and mutual understanding will come about only after the "clash of 
differing opinions". I appreciate your attempt to voice your opinion.

JA>I am off on a 10 day holiday. Respose by email will be appreciated
JA>as my system adm. will wipe out any response of yours before I can
JA>read it.

I sent you this message through E-mail and I received an error message
so I assume that you did not receive it. So I am posting it in s.c.i.
Looking forward to your reply. Please accept my apologies for the length 
of this reply.

Warm regards,

Kamran Hakim
Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian