HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us (Gary S. Trujillo)
Subject: Re: OOBE discussion group name
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 16:30:30 GMT

I received the following personal message just now:

| In article <1992Jul30.014127.15166@gnosys.svle.ma.us> you write:
| >However, the skeptics have not invaded alt.dreams, to the best of my
| >knowledge.
|
| I suspect because the group only talks about OOBE's some of the time, and
| the name of the group even conceals that fact to the casual newsgrazer.
|
| If you create a group with 'out-of-body' in it, it will stand out no
| matter what you put it under.  So you might as well put it under a.p.,
| which is the logical place in the hierarchy.

Since I have not received permission from the author of this message to
relay it to Usenet, I have omitted identifying information.

My reply follows:

You raise some good points in arguing for alt.paranormal.out-of-body as
the appropriate newsgroup - but I still feel putting it there will attract
more skeptics than if it were to be a top-level newsgroup under the alt.
hierarchy.  I also feel that its purposes are different enough from those
of alt.paranormal (which seems to be about just establishing the reality
of phenomena, rather than serving as a forum for those who want to inves-
tigate what is much more experiential than anything I've seen talked about
in alt.paranormal - not many people actually claim to *see* UFOs or to get
rides on alien spacecraft, or to bend spoons, or whatever else gets talked
about in a.p.  Yes, one could classify OBEs as paranormal, but doing so
(not just in the newsgroup sense) establishes a certain kind of analysis,
which is fairly different from what I think most of the OBE investigators
coming from the alt.dreams group want most to conduct.

Having said all that, I'll abide by the will of the majority, once we
have a vote on the subject.

Thanks for your comments.

Gary
--
    Gary S. Trujillo                            gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us
Somerville, Massachusetts              {wjh12,bu.edu,spdcc,ima,cdp}!gnosys!gst
Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.config.alt.oobe
From: ucsatsd@ucl.ac.uk (-8  Big Bad Bob (B3)  8-)
Newsgroups: alt.dreams
Subject: Re: Dream Machines (was Re: Achieving Lucidity)
Date: 22 Jul 92 13:52:31 GMT
Organization: The HRC

In article <1992Jul21.122709.24279@seq.uncwil.edu> browntf@seq.uncwil.edu (brown todd f) writes, Quoting me:
>>There's a lucid dream machine being produced here in the UK, too. It isn't
[Description of Hearne's 'Dream Machine' deleted]
>I remember reading about Dr Keith Hearne's work with lucid dreaming.
>I had heard that he had given up on producing a public version of his
>lucid dream induction device.  I am glad to hear that he is making one
>available.

Well, he certainly announced that he was doing so at a talk I attended in
February, and this was re-affirmed by his close colleague Dr. Lucien Morgan,
in May. 

>Could you please post an address in the UK that I could write to get 
>more information (also purchase information) about Dr Hearne's lucid
>dream induction device?  Do you have any idea what method he uses to
>detect REM?  Thank you very much.
>
>BTW:  About how much these days is "#600 pounds sterling" in American
>Dollars?

No problem. I'll check the info out tonight, and put it up on thursday or
friday!  I'm not sure on the rate at the mo, but #600 will be somewhere
around $1100. The #600 was merely Hearne's guess in february -  It may well
be marketted for less (I hope!)

>Michael Shea
>browntf@seq.uncwil.edu

Tim.
--
                                  |   "Everything is true, even false things."
        *****     B3     *****    | "Even false things? How can that be??"
                                  |   "Dont ask me man, I didn't do it!"
    | ucsatsd@ucl.ac.uk // perhaps via nsf.ac.uk if you get desperate..... |  
Newsgroups: alt.dreams
From: "louis ghinis" <louis.ghinis@canrem.com>
Newsgroups: alt.dreams
Subject: nightmare dreams
Date: 21 Jul 92 23:50:15 EST
Reply-To: "louis ghinis" <louis.ghinis@canrem.com>
Distribution: alt
Organization: Canada Remote Systems

   I don't know what is refered to this type of dream is called.  I
dreamed that I was in my bedroom and walking outside my bedroom in the
dark and I saw a light downstairs.  I proceed to walk half way down the
stairs and I peek in the family room and all i see is the tv screen on
with static (just like poltergeist).  I move upstairs and all of a
sudden i wake up from my dream the thing is my feeling/emotions are
still in that state (OF FEAR) I swear my heart beating was beating
rapidly and I was like afraid even though there was nothing there.  I
thought I was going to have some sort of heart attack from the fear so I
go in my moms room and my mom calms me down.  I think this was the only
time in my life that i felt that I was still in my dream (psychically)
but wasn't.

   Louis
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario/Detroit, MI
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
Newsgroups: alt.dreams
From: greg@oregon.uoregon.edu (Greg James)
Subject: dreaming of a liquid kiss (cont'd)
Summary: same
Keywords: wicked smile
Organization: University of Oregon
Distribution: same
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 22:37:11 GMT

	And so the dream continues. . .

	My feet trip underneath me on this vine of some sort, and my face 
plunges into the sodden grass.  I lose consciousness momentarily.  After a 
little while, however, I look up from my deep sleep and see my friend 
standing on some large podium directly in front of me.  Moss covers it on 
all sides and more vines tangle themselves around a ladder that extends 
itself toward a small opening behind my friend.
	He then opens his mouth and delivers a speech of such eloquence that 
I was unable to remember what it was, only that it mentioned such things as 
love and flowers and forgiving sins.  Before I was able to have my doubts 
about what he was saying, he jumps down from his spot, scoops me up in his 
arms, and carries me so I am now directly underneath that hole with a ladder 
for its tongue.
	A woman steps out of the hole.  When she sees me she immediately 
smiles.  It is a lovely smile, a wicked smile.  Except for the small ringlet 
of flowers that surround her dark blonde bed of hair, she is naked.  Her 
soft, white skin is radiant, her stature is invigorating, her gait is one 
that has chosen to present itself with passion.  I am in awe and hunger for 
her beauty to be closer to me, but I am unable to move as I remain cradled 
in my friend's arms.  Right then, she allows the contents of a peculiar wine 
bottle to fill her mouth, drops of which slide down her smooth body.
	With her mouth full of this liquid, she bends over in such a way 
that her head is directly in line with my own below her.  I gaze into her 
sparkling eyes and feel as if I am being examined by her as well.  Then, 
without warning, a stream of this liquid flows down from her lightly pierced 
lips and splatters across my closed mouth.  I decide to relinquish the hold 
on my lips, and by opening them, my mouth is filled with this liquid.  As 
the taste envelopes my mouth, I close my eyes to the sweetness of it, and 
immediately smile peacefully while still in my friend's arms.  It was a 
lovely smile, a wicked smile.  Dreaming of a liquid kiss.

	So, that's it.  I know what it means sort of, but if any of you out 
there have any thoughts as to what it means, feel free to write me.  I'm 
not a dream specialist or anything but I thought it might be a fun dream to 
just throw out there for you all to have fun with.

--Greg
 
Newsgroups: alt.dreams
From: pally@mikejag.wimsey.bc.ca (Pally Hoffstein)
Subject: Re: early morn nightmares
Organization: mikejag (mike) is a private system in Vancouver, BC, Canada
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 03:27:03 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.233335.10026@umbc3.umbc.edu> gottlieb@umbc4.umbc.edu (Robert Gottlieb) writes:
>	Hmm, sounds like a great deal of anger stuck inside.  Is there
>	anything going on in your life that makes you want to beat on
>	someone?  Kinda like how traffic on 495 in Washington, D.C. can
>	make people feel? :)  Seriously though,  it sounds as if some
>	serious stress of some kind is making it's way out through
>	your dreams.  is there an Ex in your life whom you never expressed
>	how angry you were towards them?  Or anyone for that matter. 
>	Something to think about.  And my suggestion on how to get rid
>	of the dreams, is to figure out where (if I"m right about this)
>	the anger is coming from and let it out.  

There is stress in my life of a personal nature. But since the person(s)
related to that stress occur frequently in my "normal" dreams I assumed that
these nightmares I've been having are not related. From the responses I've
been getting from my post I get the idea that I may have made a wrong
assumption about that.
It seems to me that I have been letting the stress out and expressing myself.
Perhaps not enough.

>	Hmm, can't say that I have had these kindsa dreams often.  In
>	fact I only remember one from a while ago like this.  But don't
>	take that to mean you're screwed up cause I didn't have those
>	dreams.  Hmm, if it does turn out that you are holding stuff
>	in.  Try beating on pillows or excercising or something like
>	that to help let it out.  
>	Anyway, hope I could help.
>	Take care!
>
I think you were of help, thank you. I'll try to see if there are feelings I'm
not dealing with and see how to express them.

pally hoffstein
vancouver, canada
-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I will stare into the sun until it's light doesn't blind me,
I will walk into the fire until it's heat doesn't burn me,
And I will feed the fire.		  		Sarah McLachlan
From: tbuzzeo@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca (Tom Buzzeo)
Newsgroups: alt.dreams
Subject: Dream on...
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 00:44:11 MDT
Organization: Edmonton Remote Systems #3, Edmonton, AB, Canada

Hmm... well, my newsgroups have kinda been dead lately so I decided to 
try out alt.dreams...
What a neat newsgroup!
So start off, I've had at least two dreams where I dreamnt that I was 
shot. In both cases I could feel the bullet peircibg my body. Most 
memorable of the cases was a shot on the left backside of my neck. Felt 
like a pencil eraser going through my neck, only a few 100 times worse :)
I don't have any pets to nibble on me when I am a sleep so how does one 
explanie this? DOES one explain this?
Also, a few years ago on a few occasions, I've fallen, from great heights 
in my dreams, once from a rather tall yacht and I really can't remember 
the others... But, everytime I fall... I FEEL my entire body crash.. and 
sometimes it's quite painful :) Is it just me or my waterbed? or what?

Tom Buzzeo              tbuzzeo@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca
Edmonton Remote Systems:  Celebrating 10 years of service to Northern Alberta
From: philip@labtam.labtam.oz.au (Philip Stephens)
Subject: Re: Dream/Reality
Organization: Labtam Australia Pty. Ltd., Melbourne, Australia
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 23:06:12 GMT

Rich Payne writes:

>I'm afraid that I do not see how the conclusion [we would have lucid dreams]
>follows from the proposition [if we could tell the different between dreaming
>and reality].

  Sorry, I suppose I sounded a little crytic by not expanding on what I meant.
I'm talking about our state of mind when we are in the middle of a dream; if it
was easy to tell the difference between a dream and reality WHEN DREAMING, then
obviously we could become lucid on a regular basis.  As it stands, however,
most people only have lucid dreams once in a while, suggesting that we
generally are not able to distinguish between dream and reality WHEN DREAMING.
This conclusion seems to be born out by my own investigations of my state of
mind when dreaming (this is just me having vivid dreams and remembering clearly
how what I was thinking of at the time of the dream).

>If False awakening is as common as lucid dreaming (very uncommon), then I
>am not sure what it says about dreaming in general. Hmmm, if it is always
>associated with lucid dreaming, then both might result from the same cause.

  Very probably.  I think False Awakenings have been found to occur most
readily after a lucid dream has ended.  The two phenomena are connected really,
as in both cases there is a heightened awareness of being conscious and having
an experience (regardless of whether you realise you are dreaming or not).

>Is it possible that most (or even some) -can- tell dreams from reality, while
>some cannot. This seems to be a matter of perceptions more than state. At
>least, all the evidence I have seen so far has been perceptual.

  Again, when you look at dreaming from the perspective of actually being in a
dream at the time, it would seem more reasonable to conclude that most people
don't recognise that what they are experiencing is in fact a dream.  I don't
really think that conclusion is in dispute; I think the problem we are having
here is a matter of semantics and perspective.
  I don't think ANYONE would wake up from a dream and not realise it was a
dream!  That sounds rather unlikely.  Some people here have reported that
occassionally they will remember some event that was suppose to have happened
to them a day or so ago, only to realise later that it may have been a dream
and not a waking event!  So confusion can occur, but in this case it's a matter
of the limitations of memory, I guess.

>Assuming that I do dream (they say everyone does), how would I know that I was in a dream?

  You wouldn't :-)

  Philip Stephens
  Labtam Australia Pty Ltd
  philip@labtam.labtam.oz.au
From: xxbc10@ucrmath.ucr.edu (joannie humphreys)
Newsgroups: alt.dreams
Subject: ng thing
Date: 23 Jul 92 03:39:54 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University of California, Riverside


Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.oobe
From: jeq@i88.isc.com (Jonathan E. Quist)
Subject: Re: alt.oobe newsgroup created [was Re: OBE newsgroup? any takers?]
Organization: INTERACTIVE Systems Corporation, Naperville, IL
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 16:32:29 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.071346.2801@gnosys.svle.ma.us> gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us (Gary S. Trujillo) writes:
...
>As for the naming of the new newsgroup, I chose "alt.oobe" over "alt.obe"
>since no one seemed to prefer the latter name over the former, given a
>choice between the two - and no one cared to defend "alt.astral.projection"
>after a few objections were raised to it.  I hope the majority are happy
>with the name.
....


You forgot one thing.  What does it mean?  I now know why it was named
alt.oobe, instead of alt.obe, but you didn't explain what either one
stands for.  "Oobe my Valentine?"

--
Jonathan E. Quist                              INTERACTIVE Systems Corporation
jeq@i88.isc.com                                        Naperville, IL
'71 CL450-K4 "Gleep"  -   "Worth Reposession"
DoD #094,  PBF #03  "I'm not mad; just terribly, terribly hurt."  HDM #007
Xref: sparky alt.dreams:2751 alt.config:4928 alt.oobe:39
From: sloane@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (Bob Sloane)
Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.config,alt.oobe
Subject: Re: OOBE discussion group name
Date: 29 Jul 92 15:30:07 CDT
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

In article <1992Jul29.185005.19842@u.washington.edu>,
 mtakacs@milton.u.washington.edu (Tak) writes:
>But "paranormal" subclass just screams out to be debated and flamed at by
>skeptics. (IMHO)
>...
>The feeling at alt.dreams ... seems to be one of support and genuine interest.

If the name alt.astrology didn't prevent the skeptics from posting why
will alt.out-of-body work? You can't restrict who posts to a group by
renaming it.  Perhaps dreams are not as controversial as oobe and the
skeptics haven't found the group yet. If the discussion is going well
in alt.dreams, I would recommend that it stay there.  The groups only
seems to get about 10-15 articles per day, so volume isn't an issue.
With alt.paranormal and alt.dreams, why do we need another group?
-- 
USmail: Bob Sloane, University of Kansas Computer Center, Lawrence, KS, 66045
E-mail: sloane@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu, sloane@ukanvax.bitnet, AT&T: (913)864-0444 
Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.oobe,alt.config
From: cmurray@esk (Christopher John Murray)
Subject: Looks good to me ... 
Organization: University of Tasmania at Launceston
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 06:07:44 GMT



     After following the alt.???? discussion for a while, I 
think alt.out-of-body or alt.obe would be the best choices - I've
never heard of oobe as an acronym - and do you really think being able
to call it an oobey is an advantage?? --  I'd like to be taken 
seriously thank you.

     Anyway - I'd like to know how some poeple out there get into a
state receptive to obe.  I used to be able to but now I can't seem
to get relaxed enough.  If people have some pet methods they can
relate to me I would be very grateful...


-=-=-=-Flameproof--Barrier-=-=-=-=-=-_______________________________
                                    ////  
        Email to:  Ky, at           ///             .
   cmurray@esk.compserv.utas.edu.au //            (Earth)
____________________________________/
From: middleto5442@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: alt.dreams
Subject: put this in yer pipe an smoke it
Date: 29 Jul 92 14:14:24 -0500
Organization: University of Northern Iowa




        Yeah, I've been told I do some wierd things (repeatedly telling the
talking dog joke almost got me lynched once) and yes, it is true, and no, I do
not mind. . . heh!

        I'd like to have something to blame it on, however, so when people come
up to me and say. . ."You are soooo goddamn wierd. . what the hell did it?"
I can have something realistic to say, rather than being dropped on my head as
a child or being severely mauled by a psychotyrant space bitch from hell.

        So I would like to blame it on my dreams.

        The two wierdest dreams I can remember:

        I was walking through the woods to my cabin with a bunch of shopping. 
Cans mostly.  I jumped across a small clear stream, and jounced one of the cans
from the box. . .it rolled on the ground, label facing up. . I saw that it was
tomato soup.
        Suddenly, thirty-seven grey squirrels leapt into the can, even tho it
was not open.  So I got out a can opener that hadn't been there before, and
opened the can of soup.  I began pulling grey squirrels out by their bushy
little tails, on each of which was shaved a letter of the russian alphabet.
        
        Thirty-six grey squirrels I pulled from that can of tomato soup,
russian letters and all, but the last one was stuck so that I could not get it
free.  I woke.

        And the other:

        The big swimming pool on campus is at the East Gym.  I went there one
evening to discover that the CIA had filled it with strawberry yoghurt and
purple moon boots.  My friend Heather Miller (a wholly attrective creature, by
my rights) was swimming in it wearing bright orange Speedo goggles and nothing
else.  I woke.

        See?

        Now be kind.  Tell me if I can blame wierdness on dreams just on basis
of what is realted here.  Most kind. Indeed.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------- "She reached under the counter and retrieved a bowl
of something nauseous.  It contained a substance that was lumpy and looked like
curds. . no, TWO substances, the other thin and . . well. . wheyish, hence the
name whey.  Of a sudden, a great under ugly spider sat down beside her and damn
near gave Chauncey a coronary."  --me, Dragon's Den.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Xref: sparky alt.dreams:2687 alt.oobe:17 alt.config:4866
From: molin@crs.cl.msu.edu (Michael Olin)
Newsgroups: alt.dreams,alt.oobe,alt.config
Subject: Re: Looks good to me ...
Date: 24 Jul 92 02:26:35 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University

cmurray@esk (Christopher John Murray) writes:

>     Anyway - I'd like to know how some poeple out there get into a
>state receptive to obe.  I used to be able to but now I can't seem
>to get relaxed enough.  If people have some pet methods they can
>relate to me I would be very grateful...

Personally, I don't think there's so much of a technique to it is there
is a requirement that you do your best to relieve whatever stress you
might be feeling.  Stress, even subliminal, will keep you tied down (so
to speak.)  Perhaps some of the yoga breathing exercises might be in
order.  I find my best experiences occur when I wake up in the middle of
the night.
 
And, for what it's worth...  I would call this group alt.out-of-body or
alt.obe; when I first saw alt.oobe, I was tempted to skip past, not 
recognizing it for what it is.
Newsgroups: alt.dreams
From: fis@evil.demon.co.uk (fis)
Subject: DREAM MACHINE
X-BBS-Msg-Type: E
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 19:02:12 +0000


I had a dream the other day, and a cat was biting my leg, I FELT THE PAIN
for godsake I FELT ITS TEETH dig into me.

I then realised, this cannot be true to real life, a cat getting me like
this? So I then realised it was a dream and pointed at the cat and said 
"explode", and it did. Catty flesh everywhere.

Can we have a summary of the lucid dream inducing machines, and their
prices?


Newsgroups: alt.dreams
From: cmocmp@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Subject: dreaming about certain rooms
Reply-To: cmocmp@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 20:21:09 GMT

I posted this about two weeks ago, and have so far received no replies. So once more, for the sake of doing so, can anyone answer:
1) The significance of dreaming about certain rooms? I've often been having recurring dreams that involve me walking around a building filled with bedrooms and bathrooms. During the dream, I feel as if I'm supposed to select a certain bedroom for myself, although it seems as though I'm looking at bathrooms just for fun. This is not a habit of mine, so I immediately rule out that theory.
1) The significance of being shot or attacked in a dream? I've been shot during dreams many times, and am sure I've died. It's pretty unnerving, and when I tell my friends about it, they think it's pretty morbid.
Any thoughts or suggestions? Someone? Anyone?
Char
Newsgroups: alt.dreams
From: gen5006@husky1.stmarys.ca
Subject: OBE (number test)
Organization: St. Mary's University, Halifax, N.S., Canada
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 20:35:55 GMT


Taken from "Mind Beyond the Body" (c) 1978:

"... Tart (1968) conducted a series of experiments with a 'Miss Z' who
claimed to have the ability to induce OBEs in herself during sleep.  One
night, while her brain and other physiological measures were being
recorded by polygraph, she was able during an OBE to correctly identify
a five-digit number placed on a shelf above her bed.  The possibility of
such a correct identification occuring by chance is one in 100,000, and the
polygraph would have revealed it had she gotten up during the night to 
take a peek."

	Now whether this proves if something leaves the body, or not, is
questionable.  However, it does show that OBEs should not be lightly 
dismissed.

Bill.
Xref: sparky alt.dreams:2667 alt.oobe:6 alt.config:4818