From: justin@nx30.mik.uky.edu (justin sullivan)
Subject: Re: NASA and the Japanese Space Program
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences
X-Path: nx30.mik.uky.edu!justin
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 02:11:44 GMT

In <1ivk4u$dh3@agate.berkeley.edu> jcliu@four-lab4.Berkeley.EDU (James C. Liu) writes:

>So you debate whether US democracy is better than say, Saddam Hussein's?
>Next time some other far off place in the world has a foreign policy
>problem, I'd really love to see the US not lift a finger...but other
>nations tend not to give a hoot.  Example: Somalia.  Japan thinks giving
>$15 Million every couple of months is going to good causes.  But without
>the mega buck FMC troop carriers, superior fire power, etc, do you think
>we'd be able to minimize our own casualties and that of civilians and
>still be able to deliver the food?

I don't think Hussein's regime hints at democracy at all. It's not my place
to say which is better for Iraq, because I don't live there. I think
without mega-buck troop carriers, our troops could have stayed home and
REALLY minimized our casualties. I thought the Red Cross was supposed to
deliver food.. If a government doesn't want it, well, that's a genuine
pity, but it does not extend an invitation to hostility.

>Example 2:  Iraq.  Everybody's blaming the US for the go ahead to invade
>Kuwait.  The US is damned if it gets involved and damned if it doesn't.
>But without the Giga buck fighters, missiles, etc, do you think you'd
>have seen Iraqi civilians out at the noon market everyday live on CNN?
>Again, the US technology in weapons helped protect US troops and Iraqi 
>civilians.

Thanks to the giga-buck fighters and missiles, there were less Iraqi
civilians out at the noon market everyday (live) on CNN. You should be 
more grateful to the ESA for launching the satellite that brought you
those pictures. :) As per my above paragraph, if you don't put troops
in places where they're likely to be killed, they're likely to live longer..
Besides, those sanctions were such a WONDERFUL idea.. The civilians found
themselves with a hell of a lot less to buy at the noon market (live on CNN).

>I couldn't agree with you more.  But the US did that and WW1 and WW2
>brought the US back in.  The cold war vs. the ex-Soviets saw a repeat US
>entry into Japan and Western Europe.  And now in the Middle East..do you
>think Germany, France, or Japan could get Israel to even sit down with
>the Palestinians?  Not.  I wish the US could lay off and just keep to
>itself, but the economies of the world are too interwined with our own.
>Ever wonder to yourself how an extra $200 Billion in oil costs would
>affect Japan?  and what it do to our economy, that Canada's, Europe's,
>etc.?  You don't have to wonder because thanks to America, the
>flow of oil out of the MidEast is secure.

I think France, Germany and Japan don't give a flying hoot about the
Palestinians *OR* the Israelies. After all, one group bombs American
planes, bombs German discotechques (killing American soldiers) and other
nasty things.. Then they go hide in lawless, bullet-ridden Beirut..
The other group can't really be reasoned with, so far as the US is 
concerned. By that, I mean that if someone doesn't do what the US wants,
we just say that they're threatening freedom and democracy.. Only there's
one problem: Israel is armed to the teeth as well, and if the US did
get upset with Israel, who knows what American Jews might do.. Bear in mind
that it's precisely that Hebrew loyalty that urged the US to support
Israel in the first place.. But let's not go back THAT far.. :)

The oil will always flow out of the Persian Gulf.. The Middle East can't
survive without it, either. Hussein wouldn't be able to build his
billion-dollar palace, and the Kuwaiti royal family wouldn't be able to
keep theirs.

It's amazing ANY economy holds up under the ridiculous taxes Uncle Sam
sucks out of me to pay for all this bullshit. If you want to convince me
that freedom and democracy wouldn't exist without MX missiles, feel free.
But I really don't think I'd mind bowing to an image of the Emperor, or
yelling 'Heil, Hitler!' if it meant freedom <hehehe> from highway
robbery by a government who's supposed to be acting for my BENEFIT. 

>For many domestic Americans who've only studied the injustices of
>America trying to 'stuff it's democracy' down other nations' throats,
>they just don't realize how many people in those nations would just
>love to have America step in.  The prophet is never recognized by his
>own people.

I've been through a lot of shit in my life, so don't preach to me about
'injustice.' If someone else wants the US to go to bat for them, let THEM
pay for it! I can't afford it..