From: black@che.serum.kodak.com (Robert Black (x37236))
Subject: Factory Farming.  Was Re: Hunting and Killing.
Organization: Clinical Products Division, Eastman Kodak Company
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 17:19:17 GMT

In article <1992Aug19.194936.13007@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> jhoskins@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (James M Hoskins) writes:
>In article <1992Aug19.160809.12659@clpd.kodak.com> black@che.serum.kodak.com (R
>obert Black (x37236)) writes:

[... description of farm animal suffering deleted for space considerations ...]


>[Not a word from Mr. Black in response to the above paragraph]
>
>I don't understand yet why our AR friends seem to never address in this forum
>the issue of farm animal conditions and commercial slaughter in meat packing
>houses etc.  If the reason is that they have only so much time to respond to
>the hunters writing in talk.politics.animals then I'll accept that for an
>answer.

You're correct about time being a problem, at least for me.  That's not
necessarily a good answer, but it's a valid depiction of the reality.  In
my case, I seldom start new threads, preferring to participate in existing
discussions.  Since hunting is a more popular topic, that's the one
receiving the greater attention.

>
>Anyway, I don't follow this AR movement closely enough to know whether Mr.
>Black, Russell L. et al. mirror the relative energy that AR people put into
>anti-hunting advocacy versus other things they could be doing.

At this moment I can think of 4 groups that specialize in farm-related
issues: Farm Animal Reform Movement (FARM), Humane Farming Association
(HFA), Farm Sanctuary, and Animal Rights International.  All four
groups, from what I can tell, are very active.  If you're familiar with
any of them, I would welcome your views on them.  If not and you would
like addresses / phone numbers, they can be provided. 

>  From this group
>I get the impression that Ferris and his friends have parties and conferences
>in woodland areas during hunting seasons and then take nature hikes, clanging
>on pots and pans to scare animals.  Again, I'm ready to be corrected of a
>mistaken impression.

I believe that you have a mistaken impression.  Ferrell has posted on many
many topics, not just hunting.

>
>My goodness, agriculture in this country is moving toward ever more containment
>of farm animals within smaller and smaller areas.  To maintain health under
>these conditions, the farm industry is forced to inject or feed the animals
>with a steady diet of drugs throughout their lifetimes...talk about lack of
>dignity...Then animals get crammed into trucks and journey on to market, wait
>in feedlots, are lined up, supposedly then they are stunned, and their throats
>slit...then on down the assembly line.  How many modern factory farms does
>Ferris wheel by on his way to the party in the woods?  For me personally,
>picketing in front of a meat packing plant is not my style, maybe it isn't
>Russell Lawrence's either; I do not want to come across as holier than thou.
>I have been vocal on the increased deanimalization of farm animals and
>have written letters, doing what I can.

Good for you.  If you can supply background information, addresses,
phones, along with more details about your activities, you may find that
they receive a receptive audience.  I encourage you to post more on the
factory farming subject. 

>  Do any of the AR people who--like
>Russell or Mr. Black--seem intensely energized by the issue of animal rights
>care about factory farming of animals in the sense that they ever write about
>it here?

Yes, but because factory farm supporters don't seem to log on and participate
in a give-and-take interchange, these types of threads seem to die out.
Even most hunters, who defend animal research, don't seem eager to carry
the banner for factory farming.

I scanned through the incomplete archives of posts I've submitted over
the past six months for the string "farm" and came up with these comments
(greatly truncated to save bandwidth, but hopefully not so much as to 
destroy the general idea):


		From a black/semrad discussion:
*******************************************************************************
* Message-ID: <1992Mar27.173053.12715@clpd.kodak.com
* Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1992 17:30:53 GMT
*
* Joe Semrad writes:
* >Because they (and vegans, who seem to favor the AR postiion) talk about
* >the potential dangers of animal farming with *no* mention of the potential
* >dangers of plant farming. 
*
* Actually they do talk about farming.  See books like "Animal Factories" by
* Peter Singer and Jim Mason or a more updated one like "Old MacDonald's
* Factory Farm" by C. David Coats.  AR people and vegans both recognize that
* there are costs to all farming, and that these costs are less if we do less
* of it
*
* Eliminate or reduce animal farming and get many benefits ..
*
*     ... plant farming will be reduced because we won't need to grow all that
* 	food for the farm animals.
* 
* Joe Semrad continues:
* >   They don't talk about rivers being ruined by
* >fertilizer and pesticide runoff and by topsoil erosion (silt).
*
*    ... and there will be less pesticide runoff and topsoil erosion.  It's
* 	estimated that 85% of US topsoil erosion is directly associated
* 	with livestock raising
*
* Joe Semrad continues;
* >  They don't
* >talk about wetlands being drained to get a few more acres of marginal
* >farmland that is useless in wet years anyways (some of the most vehement
* >opposition to "Swampbuster" laws that I've read comes from farmers).
*
*    ...	and there will be less draining of wetlands.
* 
* Joe Semrad continues:
* >  They
* >don't talk about the wildlife habitat that is lost when land is cleared
* >for farmland
*
*     ...	and there will be lower habitat loss due to clearing of forests
* 	260 million acres of US forest have been cleared to create
* 	cropland to produce a meat-centered diet.
*
* Joe Semrad continues:
* >  They don't talk about shooting of animals by farmers illegally
* >when crop damage occurs (a case involving deer stripping an apple orchard
* >was discussed in this Sunday's Mpls Star).
* 
* >Many farmers are aware of these and other problems and take steps to stop
* >them.  Others do not.  Many of these seem to either be the result of not
* >knowing/caring about the problem by an individual farmer, or the result of
* >the fencerow to fencerow factory farming methods used today.  I don't
*                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
* AR literature exists that addresses this in detail.  The subject does not
* arise as often on the net as hunting does, maybe because there are more
* hunters than factory farmers who post.
*
* >mean to ping on all farmers!  I do mean to point out the possible problems
* >that exist and would probably increase if the whole US went vegan.
*
* Actually there are indications that this would decrease.  The animal
* "middlemen" that process the food are not efficient producers of protein.
* 20 pure vegetarians can be fed on the amount of land needed to feed a
* person consuming a meat-based diet.
* ********************************************************************************

		From a black/linan discussion:
*******************************************************************************
* Message-ID: <1992Mar23.182253.22537@clpd.kodak.com
* Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1992 18:22:53 GMT
*
* You're right about livestock animals.  In terms of sheer numbers, factory
* farming and lab research cause orders of magnitude more suffering than
* hunting.  This has always been recognized.  That's why Peter Singer's
* landmark book concentrated on the latter two areas of animal exploitation.
*
* However, recognition of this does not justify overlooking lesser problems.
* If my neighbor ties his dog behind the car and starts dragging him down the
* street, I'm not likely to say, "Hey that's terrible but I'll let that pass
* because the factory animals and research animals are suffering so much more."
* *******************************************************************************
 
		From a black/holloway discussion:
*******************************************************************************
* Message-ID: <1992Apr3.160715.16961@clpd.kodak.com
* Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1992 16:07:15 GMT
* >	The animal rights movement has become dangerous.
*
* In what way has it become dangerous?  To whom?  Factory farmers who
* ignored the plight of "downers" until AR groups like the Farm Sanctuary
* focused attention on it?  Researchers at the University of Pennsylvania
* head injury clinic who were recorded on videotape laughing at the plight
* of the animals they were "testing".
* *******************************************************************************

 		From a black/swenson discussion:
* *******************************************************************************
* Message-ID: <1992Jul24.201326.2359@clpd.kodak.com
* Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 20:13:26 GMT
*
* >  For now, the animal rights movement is using
* >hunting,  medical research, and the fur industry to win sympathy to their
* >cause. 
*
* These are seen as some of the most exploitative uses of animals, so it
* makes sense to start there ...  although you have left out one of the
* worst exploitations: factory farming.
* *******************************************************************************

 		From a black/swenson discussion:
* *******************************************************************************
* Message-ID: <1992Aug7.173119.4394@clpd.kodak.com
* Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1992 17:31:19 GMT
*
* The term factory farm is not ambiguous at all.  It distinguishes those
* massive highly-intensive agribusiness farms (where animals are nothing
* more than a commodity) from the more traditional family farm.  In the
* words of Henry Spira, "More than 95% of all animal suffering in this
* country is in factory farming" (from The Latham Letter, Fall 1990). I 
* don't know if the percent is correct; it seems high, but Mr. Spira is
* far more knowledgeable and involved in the issue than I am.
*
* For more information, see OLD MACDONALD'S FACTORY FARM by C. David Coats
* or books by Ruth Harrison and by Jim Mason (exact titles escape me right
* now)
* *******************************************************************************

>What must at least in part be exasperating for hunters is to be singled out
>for abuse when all who in good faith examine the issue of how animals are
>treated in modern American society know where the greater qualitative and
>quantitative abuse lies.

By all means, concentrate on the greater abuse, but that doesn't require
us to overlook lesser abuses.

Thanks James (Jim?) for a very interesting and informative post.

--
Robert Black
black@serum.kodak.com  - The ONLY email address that MIGHT work
These views are not necessarily the views of my employers
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals