From: tmaddox@milton.u.washington.edu (Tom Maddox)
Newsgroups: misc.writing,alt.flame
Subject: Re: Creativity, Creative writing classes
Date: 9 Apr 92 07:50:46 GMT
Organization: The Evergreen State College, Olympia, Washington

[This has turned into an exchange of flames, folks, so be forewarned.]

In article <LkDqiB1w164w@nlbbs.UUCP> willdorr@nlbbs.UUCP (William Cutlip) writes:

>Because, in academic circles, talk is treason. Because the sacred cows of the 
>classroom must never, ever be spoken of without a show of great respect, or 
>some dour academic authority figure -- like yourself -- will come along and 
>apply the whip -- as you have done. 

	So you explain idiocy by putting forth an even more idiotic set of
statements.  Good work.  Let's look at the key sentence:

	Because, in academic circles, talk is treason.

You claimed earlier to be some kind of academic yourself.  Does this mean
that in your circles talk is treason?  I doubt it.  You're just puffing and
posturing again, apparently hoping the smoke pouring out of your head will
obscure the fact that you're simply mouthing an obvious lie.

	To put the matter shortly:  the question is not one of respect but 
of truth.  Neither here nor in previous postings did you put forward a 
reasonable position; you simply spewed a mixture of bile and bullshit.  And
I corrected you in terms that you don't like.  Too bad--restrain your bent
toward big, stupid lies, and you'll find I won't bother you at all.

>I had the misfortune of taking classes with professors who 
>had been saddled with a narrow view of what literature was and what it should 
>do. Those teachers also presented themselves to the world as unassailable 
>authorities in all things literary -- and I suspect that Naughty Nancy's 
>teacher comes from the same school. So far, you seem to be cut from the same 
>cloth. 

	Think what you want.  You were the victim of bad teaching; while the
courses were creative writing, they could have been any number of others.
Also, that fact aside, you offered anecdotal evidence as though it proved
something about the nature of college writing teachers.  In fact, it proved
only that there are *some* bad college writing teachers, hardly an 
earthshaking discovery.

>I have been careless if I've given the impression that all writing courses 
>are bad and that all writing teachers are aloof and evil. You are right to 
>chastise me. There are many thousands of good creative writing teachers out 
>there. I have no doubt that the people you mentioned -- even "old Orson" -- 
>are very good teachers. Mea maxima culpa. 

	Very good.  ("Old Orson," by the way, should be "old Scott.")

[I said]:
>>Whether I read the above paragraph (or your entire posting, for matter) as 
>>a college teacher or a professional writer, I come to the same conclusion: 
>>you should give up your attempts to write humor, or you should take a 
>>writing class. I can recommend some good college teachers. 
>
>Like yourself, Tom? No thanks. It has been my experience that people who 
>openly demand respect deserve it least. 

	Well, I wouldn't take you as a student on a bet; however, since you 
seem incapable of choosing a writing teacher on your own, I thought I might 
offer some help.  And I'm certainly neither asking for nor demanding your
respect--I'm merely goading you into acknowledging the truth.  You've done
that, between irrelevancies and evasions, so I'm satisfied.  

[I said]:
>>Glad you liked the fiction;
>
>Sorry. I lied.

	Of course you did, you sorry fucker.  The truth isn't in you.
-- 
				Tom Maddox
			tmaddox@u.washington.edu
		"Writing is reading and reading is writing."
				A. S. Byatt