HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lsmith@mega.cs.umn.edu (Lance "Squiddie" Smith)
Subject: Re: Why Vertigo? Was: Marvel copies DC... again
Organization: The Feminist Squids of the Poor
Distribution: na 
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 23:43:30 GMT

In article <C0pLwz.112@news.udel.edu> cornwall@bach.udel.edu (Ray J Cornwall) writes:
>Well, yeah...
>I think your last point is dead-on. DC is trying to create this new
>market. Why shouldn't they? Go to your local comic store. It's a
>mostly male-dominated place. I still get a shock when I see a (gasp)
>GIRL in the store (the last part of A Game Of You comes to mind).
>Statistics show that comic readers are mostly young males. With DC's
>Vertigo line, 100% testosterone-free, we may (hopefully) see a broader
>market (no bad pun intended...). 

Careful. Even Cosmo isn't calling 'em girls these days. (Yikes! I sound
so PC!) 

I think Karen Berger has said that in some of her books the male-female
readership ratio is 60-40 or even 50-50. The ratio for the industry is
closer to 90-10. From my own personal observation, they women that come
into the local shop tend to buy the titles that will be part of the 
Vertigo line. Lots of Sandman and Doom Patrol, some Hellblazer and Shade.

I haven't done a good survey, but Vertigo also seems to be hiring more
women on the creative teams. You have three books (Swamp Thing, Doom Patrol 
and Kid Eternity) that will be written by women. Jill Thompson is doing
art fro Vertigo titles. It's only four, but that's not bad in a predominantly
industry.

Is having more women working on Vertigo titles important? I dunno. As
long as the story or art or whatever is good, I don't care who is doing
it. On the other hand, women from outside the industry (like Rachel Pollack)
might bring a fresh perspective to their work. 

>To further this point, I bring the example of my store. The Vertigo
>preview was free to any female (guys still had to pay 75 cents...I
>wasn't happy, but that's another tale). I asked the store owner, and
>he said,"We need more women in this store." Point blank from a
>somewhat successful comic store owner...

That's a good move. I hopes it works out. It would be interesting to see
if certain shops could find there own niche in the market by minimizing
their dependence on the hot books and aiming instead for an older market.
Part of this might mean attracting more women customers. The average 
shop might have to have to change in ways like this to get more women
shoppers. 

-----------------------------
  Lance "Cr2O3.2H2O" Smith  | "SandPeanut? HellGoober? Peanut Patrol? Is this
    (lsmith@cs.umn.edu)     |  some kind of a joke? I'm calling security! 
  Innovative!   Dangerous!  |  No, I have a better idea. You're going out the 
  Provocative!      Dizzy!  |  window!"         _Mr Peanut meets Karen Berger_
From: intruder@cats.ucsc.edu (Isaac N. Truder)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
Subject: Re: Vertigo Bomb
Date: 12 Jan 93 06:25:44 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University of California; Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: am.ucsc.edu


 > Maybe the problem with Sandman art is that it usually isn't
 > standard comic book art. You get very polarized reaction. While
 > George liked the  art of Sam Kieth and Kelley Jones, I felt
 > Kieth's work wasn't right for the book and I have never liked
 > Jones' stuff. (I'm sure Glenn will  disagree with my feelings on
 > Jones.) 

Personally, while the art on SANDMAN has never really been to my tastes,
1.) I don't read SANDMAN anyway (the whole thing just really isn't to my
taste, though I'm sure it's well written blah blah blah), and 2.) I
find that the artwork is generally appropriate for the material, and
generally DOES match the package fairly well.  As far as the two "star
artists" you mentioned, I never have gotten off on Sam Kieth -- I think
he's gotten worse and worse in his quest to become a "hot" artist,
working on Wolverine and what-have-you; and he's not appropriate really
for SANDMAN.  And as for Kelley Jones, while he's probably appropriate
for the book, I too have disliked his work as far back as MICRONAUTS,
though he does seem to be improving somewhat.

My point?  "Star pencilers", even though they may be perceived as
possibly being appropriate for the book, generally don't seem to fit on
SANDMAN once they're there.  While I can't say much good for the art on,
say, SWAMP THING recently, I can't disparage the art on SANDMAN just
because it's not what you'd expect to see in a comic book.  I thought
the whole point was that SANDMAN was not your average comic book ... ?
-- 
+------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Isaac Truder  <intruder@cats.ucsc.edu> | BLADDER CONTROL CENTRAL |
|      "The more you drive... the less intelligent you are."       |
+------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: tal691@huxley.anu.edu.au (Tonio Loewald)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
Subject: Re: President at Superman's Funeral
Date: 4 Jan 93 21:09:44 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.2.12

dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig) writes:

>I thought comics had to be done two or three months ahead of their
>distribution date in order to get into the pipeline in time, but
>Clinton was at Superman's funeral six weeks after the election.
>Is it that they allow shorter lead times, that they gambled on
>the polls, or that they simply drew that panel in two versions?
>(We'll ignore the fact that this was before the Christmas issue,
>meaning that the funeral took place before inauguration.)

>-----
>Dani Zweig
>dani@netcom.com

Has anyone suggested that maybe Superman was a card-carrying Democrat?
?:-)

----------------------------
"Whenever anyone talks about culture,
I reach for my revolver."
-- Hermann Goering
 
This has been a Widya Santoso Production
Please send all EMail to 
 
     [100033,361]@compuserve.com
 
I hope you have had pleasure reading my words.
 
Brought to you by (but not responsible for, and don't send mail to...)
-- 
Tonio Loewald | tal691@huxley.anu.edu.au | Life is short. Be nice.
"You can lie/You can cry/For all the good it'll do you, you can
die/But when it's done/And the police come/And they lay you down
for dead/Just remember what I said" (Paul Simon-not the senator)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
From: dhenry@plains.NoDak.edu (David R. Henry)
Subject: Re: Why Vertigo?
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 07:52:00 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computing Network

>I don't think any of the DC existing titles could go into creator-ownership.
>That would be too difficult. However, some of the new titles will be 
>creator-owned. This would be sort of limited by the re-use of existing DC
>characters. However, titles like Sebastian 0 might be creater-owned.
>
>If you look at the back of the Vertigo preview, I believe there is a list 
>of the characters and who owns them. I don't have the preview with me, but
>aren't some of those creator-owned?

Right on the money, Lance. The "old guard" of Vertigo (Swamp Thing through
Shade) are still DC owned, as well as the new revamps of their old
characters (Kid Eternity, Black Orchid, etc), but the new books with new
charaters are owned by the writer/artist teams working on them.

Which, at least IMO, makes complete sense.

"Stepping into the cynical world."
    --"The Cynical World", Bush's Other Mistress' takeoff of KaTe's
    			"The Sensual World"

"Buy high, sell low!" --The One-Eared God

-- 
David R. Henry - Rogue Fan Club - "I have a pullchain in my head." -- RIII
My mind is a jackal.--Richard Darwin // What was the question? --Kate Bush
"All you of Earth are IDIOTS!"-P9fOS // Thanks... for the memories.--Rogue
dhenry@plains.nodak.edu * ud137927@ndsuvm1.bitnet * ud137927@vm1.nodak.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
From: bert@snowman.med.umn.edu (Albert Nakano  CBN)
Subject: Re: Tempus Fugitive (was Re: The Big Marvel Slurp)
Organization: University of Minnesota
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 21:18:23 GMT

In article <1993Jan6.090036.1@skcla.monsanto.com> jjfink@skcla.monsanto.com writes:
>In article <5568@disuns2.epfl.ch>, SATELLITE@eldi.epfl.ch (Uncle Alias) writes:
>> In <6060@comton.airs.com> ian@airs.com writes:
>> 
>>> jcowling@masque.UVic.CA (Scowling Jim Cowling) writes:
>>> 
>>> >On the other hand, I
>>> >thought that TEMPUS FUGITIVE was CRAP CRAP CRAP.
>>> 
>>> Really?  I rather liked it.  I don't particularly like airplanes, but
>>> Ken Steacy must like them a lot, and it was fun looking at him
>>> enjoying himself.  The art was right out of The Gernsback Continuum.
>> 
>> 	I second you on that, Ian. Tempus Fugitive was IMHO a very good
>> mini-serie, fast-paced and funny and all.
>              ^^^^^^^^^^
>> 	Of course, you had to like planes. And purple.
>
>Fast paced?  Oh, the story, not the publishing schedule!
>I'm surprised I forgot to list Ken Steacy in my fave artists when it was being
>surveyed last year.
>
>While I haven't liked his work on standard superheroes much (he gave Iron Man
>corners -- ouch ouch ouch), his airbrushing is innovative and refreshing.  The
>only other artist out today to use the airbrush to such a degree and show his
>own distinctive style (in comics, that is) is Richard Corben.
>
How about Denis Beauvais (sp?) who did beautiful airbrush artwork for Dark
Horse Comics in their second "Aliens" series?

no sig yet,
Albert Nakano








Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
From: cwelsh@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Craig Welsh  )
Subject: Re: IMAGE: Shadowhawk 2
Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 05:27:33 GMT

>	I never saw any of Jim Valentino's stuff before this, and Craig
>Welsh (who you've also seen on this group) used to describe Guardians of
>the Galaxy as one of his favorite comics.  Well it had to have been
>better than this!  Quite simply -- ShadowHawk STINKS!!!!

Tragically, Guardians was one of my favorite comics. Since Valentino's
departure, the comic hasn't been worth looking at.  In fact, it might
qualify as a candidate for the Sunk the Lowest Award. A title that went
dramtically downhill right after issue 27 or so when the Guardians got
involved with the Infinity War.  
Furthermore, I can only wonder how Valentino managed to produce such a
good comic. Having bought Shadowhawk #1 and read #2, I can only conclude
that he did it with mirrors. I simply do not know how he could go from a
great comic like Guardians to Shadowhawk. Ran out of ideas? Can create
original characters? Had help with Guardians? I don't know, but anybody
who has read both books will probably find it difficult to believe that
they were written by the same person. 

-Craig 
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Stupid Reasons to be Glad that You weren't Alive in the 14th Century|
| #1 - It was utter crap back then.                                   |
| #3 - The only cure for a toothache was to smash your head repeatedly|
|      against a wall until it hurt more than your tooth.             |
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From: lazarus@matt.ksu.ksu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
Subject: Re: Marvel copies DC... again
Date: 12 Jan 1993 04:49:05 -0600
Organization: Kansas State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: matt.ksu.ksu.edu

jelmore@nyx.cs.du.edu (John Elmore) writes:

>>however... I LOVED the X-Men/New Mutants' trip to Asgard... but trying to
>>fit them into Atlantis Attacks brought a whole new meaning to the word
>>"contrived".  I only complain when the writing suffers...   :P

>Can someone explain what this means? The ATLANTIS ATTACKS X-Men Annual had
>the X-Men against Mr. Jip and the Serpent Society (my vote for most
>oddball villian teamup!) The New Mutants Annual had the Mutants finding a
>large seashell and calling up a big ugly sea monster. Unless there's
>another X-Men/New Mutants trip to Asgard I'm missing. (And I don't think
>he meant that last pre-Liefeld NM story, either...)

Sorry, I was referring to the New Mutants Special Edition that appeared
instead of an annual, in which Loki decides to gain revenge upon the
X-Men by kidnapping the New Mutants.  Part Two was in X-Men Annual #9
(1985) when the X-Men learn that the kid're in trouble and rush off to
Asgard to rescue them.  The very NEXT issue (continuity-wise) was X-Men
#200, in which they're returned to Midgaard... er, Earth, in the middle
of a Parisian park.  Fairly tight continuity between what was, back then,
the only two real mutant titles in Marvel's lineup, due to the fact that
Claremont was writing for BOTH of them.  The crossover didn't involve
the Avengers or the Inhumans or Willy Lumpkin, so you didn't have to buy
an issue of a comic you didn't already pick up regularly... meaning
since I already picked up the X-Men/New Mutants titles and annuals anyway,
I didn't get screwed by the "crossover".

Now, in X-Men Annual #13 (Atlantais Attacks), it seemed the writers had
to jerry-rig a plot to include that years annual into the big multi-
annual crossover.  Mr. Jip is one of the main villains... I couldn't
stomach him in Cloak & Dagger, he was just too uninteresting, and is
worse in the annual.  The writing sucked, the art wasn't much to look
at either.  The only redeeming quality was it's contents of a couple of
fairly decent one-liners.

I forgot completely about the New Mutants Annual that year.  Liefeld's
art was actually pretty good when he started his run, and I believe that
year's annual was his first actual issue on the series.  It didn't
get bad until around issue number 94.  I think Louise Simonson wrote
both that annual and the "Asgardian Wars" storyline (in which they
decided to strand Moonstar in Asgard), and I've been of the opinion
that the New Mutants stories suffered with her writing for them.  No,
this Asgard/NM story was NOT what I had in mind...

>Jay (=

Bart -Laz- Smith
The 'Cat

Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
From: lsmith@deci.cs.umn.edu (Lance "Squiddie" Smith)
Subject: Re: Pirate Corp$ #5
Organization: The Little Squids of Pirate Corp$
Distribution: na 
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 01:20:21 GMT

In article <1993Jan6.010144.13723@news2.cis.umn.edu> lsmith@deci.cs.umn.edu (Lance "Squiddie" Smith) writes:
>In article <rkxrdvh@lynx.unm.edu> lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble) writes:
>
>>And the next issue of PC$ should be out Any Day Now.
>
>Depending on your distributor, it should be out Any Day Then. At least
>I have my copy already. All I can say is, he better not leaving hanging
>for another year.  

That was interesting last sentence. I wonder what I meant? Probably
"He better not be leaving us hanging for another year."

Without adding too much to this, I will say that Pirate Corp$ #5 ends on
very tense point in the story. Dorkin has said that he intends to get this
thing out quarterly. Maybe he's finally given up on Liquid Piano or whatever
that project was called.

-----------------------------
  Lance "Cr2O3.2H2O" Smith  | "I guess you're right. The town would be better
    (lsmith@cs.umn.edu)     |  off if you had never been born. Now, I'll never
    Formerly disgusted.     |  get my wings. Well, what are you waiting for?
     Now just amused.       |  Go ahead and jump!"       _It's a Wonderful Nut_
From: gt6249c@prism.gatech.EDU (The Corinthian)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
Subject: Re: DC Trade Paper Prices: Outrageous!
Date: 8 Jan 93 06:35:37 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Cracker Barrel

In article <1993Jan4.093320.1@skcla.monsanto.com> jjfink@skcla.monsanto.com writes:
>What's with DC/Warner's book prices?
>
>It used to be, you slap four to eight issues of a comic together, you paid
>five to twelve dollars for them.  The Sandman collections started at, what
>$14.95 for the first one?  I could live with that, it had nine issues.
>
>Lately, every trade paper from DC has been $19.95.  Regardless of size or
>shape.  Now, Books of Magic was just four (thick) issues.  The original issues

I noticed some price differences between the Warner and DC releases of TPBs.
The DC release of Hellblazer: Original Sins was $19.95 while the Warner
release of the same TPB(with a different cover) was $14.95.

Anybody know why?


Bin

Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
From: dvandom@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Dave Van Domelen)
Subject: Re: Is that Susan Richards' new costume?
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 02:32:12 GMT

I'd say that Polaris's new costume is simply part of her overcompensation for 
a poor self-image.  Argh, shot myself in the foot with a pun.
     Anyway, I'm *certain* that other characters will be making comments about 
the costume, if not to her face then behind her back:
     Madrox: Hey, what's with Lorna's costume?
     Guido: Dunno, but I haven't seen something that tacky since Moira's 
leather fetish.
     Madrox 2(poking head in): You haven't seen Sue Richards lately, have you?

     Dave Van Domelen, Space Rangers was okay, but the android-can't-handle-
surprises plot is worn thinner than Hulk at the end of Countdown.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
From: 890661b@axe.acadiau.ca (MATTHEW EARL KEITH BALL)
Subject: Constantine's Drinking Buddy
Organization: Acadia University
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 23:09:14 GMT

Just a question on the blurb in the Vertigo Preview.

Who is the man/ghost/god/whatever drinking with Constantine?
In the DC coming attractions, they mention the Phantom Stranger, Zatanna, 
and someone else being on hand, but this doesn't look like either of them.
Any ideas as to who it is?

Matt
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
From: jordan@castor (Jet Jaguar)
Subject: Re: Vertigo Bomb
Organization: University of Georgia
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 06:24:13 GMT

In article <1993Jan8.215422.26596@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu> pml3@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (Paul Michael Lewis) writes:
>This really pains me to see the lack of artistic talent that DC puts on their
>'mature' titles.  It's hard to judge the writing on these books with just a 2
>page preview, but I just could not believe how bad the artwork was on
>Sebastian O, Black Orchid (Jill Thompson sucks, Sandman Fanboys), and Kid
>Eternity.  This is not something new for DC.  Hellblazer and Swamp Thing has
>suffered with subpar artists for a long time.

>I predict that the above mentioned Vertigo titles will be cancelled within a
>year.

Damn!  I was looking forward to them all, too.  Must be cause I'm such a
Sandboy.  (Sounds better than "Sandman Fanboy.")  Cancel my last message
about the Vertigo Preview, guys...

Personally, the only art that I really disliked was for "Enigma."  I don't
know if I'd say Jill Thompson "sucks," but I'm not extremely thrilled about
it, either.  I really liked the art on Sebastian O and some of the other
titles.

And how long is "a long time" for subpar Hellblazer art?  If you're referring
to William Simpson's art, I actually agree.  Steve Dillon, while not perfect,
is a vast improvement.  I would imagine that art is much more subjective than
writing is, anyway...

Chuck


-- 
                  Chuck Jordan | jordan@castor.cs.uga.edu
"It's for you, McGruff."
"Did you hear what he called me?  I HATE that!  Let's sneak up into his
room and drain all the liquid out of his body."		-- Sam & Max
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
From: tpjg9663@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Tom Johnston)
Subject: Re: Why Vertigo? Was: Marvel copies DC... again
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 20:54:20 GMT

Chagnon_A@msm.cdx.mot.com (Andrew Chagnon) writes:

>Given the discussion that last month Sandman was ranked #75 in sales and
>Hellblazer wasn't in the top 100, why is DC creating the Vertigo line?

>There doesn't seem to be a sound business reason to do it from my viewpoint.
>Are there a large number of 'mature audience' readers out there that DC is
>tapping into, or are they hoping to create a new market of Vertigo readers?

>Judging from the sales stats, it seems that market does not exist, and DC is
>hoping to create one. 

DC may be making money on Sandman, Hellblazer, etc. despite the fact
that these books are not the industry leaders.  DC books which sell
significantly better than Sandman seem to be the Batman title, the
Superman titles, and the Titans titles.  Each of these three is
being milked by DC as much as possible (more titles coming out with
the same characters, etc.)

Beyond that, the mature titles may have more room for growth.  They
are more likely to appeal to an older (30 something, baby boomers,
etc.) crowd than the superhero dreck.  There is less competition
for this market from the other major comics manufacturers.

I'm curious about sales on the Sandman TPB's.  The Science Fiction
Book Club currently offers one of them (as well as several other
DC TPBs).  I wonder if this indicates that a non-comics audience
is showing some interest in such stuff.


Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
From: pautler@ils.nwu.edu (David Pautler)
Subject: Scott McCloud's _Understanding Comics_?
Organization: The Institute for the Learning Sciences
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 17:25:42 GMT

Several months ago, CSN announced that Scott McCloud was coming out with
a limited comics series called _Understanding Comics_ that sounded a lot
like Eisner's _Comics and Sequential Art_ to me.  I thought the first
issue was scheduled for January, but I can't find any mention of it in
the back of CSN #290, although they're listing Spawn #9.

Does anyone know the status of this book?  Who's publishing it?

	-dp-

Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
From: lbaum@atc.boeing.com (Larry Baum)
Subject: Re: The Big Marvel Slurp (Was Re: Marvel Implosion Imminent?)
Organization: Boeing Computer Services
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 17:28:26 GMT

In article <1993Jan5.073245.3315@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> jelmore@nyx.cs.du.edu
(John Elmore) writes:
>[Lots of stuff ... deleted]
>
>The Midnight Sons line seems destined for failure; MORBIUS is pretty blah;
>NIGHTSTALKERS isn't too bad, despite the Hydra zombies story. DARKHOLD
>could do OK, if it avoids the "crossover with every Marvel title in
>existance" phase it seems headed towards. SPIRITS OF VENGEANCE will
>probably do OK, and I think we all know why...
>
When the Midnight Stalkers group was announced there was a lot of comparison to
the horror stuff Marvel put out in the early 70's: Tomb of Dracula, Werewolf by
Night, etc.  Having experienced both (I refuse to say "read" since the new
stuff is pretty much unreadable!), I find the new stuff particularly odious. 
The 70's
books were generally well-done, if not everyone's cup of tea.  TOD had great
art and some of Wolfman's best writing.  Werewolf... had wonderful Ploog art. 
Val Mayerick did good stuff on Monster of Frankenstein.   Some of the stuff was
mediocre, but generally they seemed to be crafted by people who cared about
what they were producing.

This current crop of titles is depressingly awful.  The art in all of the books
is quite ugly and rushed.  The characterizations, what little there is of them,
are totally uninteresting and superficial.  There is a lot of blood, but little
suspense.  

Here's to a quick demise of these books.
From: faber@loon.cs.wisc.edu (Ted)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
Subject: Re: What is ACME??
Date: 11 Jan 93 22:56:23 GMT
Organization: U of Wisconsin Madison - Computer Sciences

rsholmes@rodan.syr.EDU (Rich Holmes) writes:

>In article <1993Jan11.182300.28454@fcom.cc.utah.edu> stigers@mail.physics.utah.edu (charles stigers) writes:
>
>>    Yes, but where did it come from before then?  Where did WB get the name?
>
>Out of a dictionary, perhaps?
>
>I doubt if there's any connection, but there used to be a chain of
>"Acme Supermarkets" in (a region including) the Syracuse area. Gone
>now, I guess.

	Last time I looked there was still one in Elmira, NY.  But I admit
	I haven't looked that recently.

>- Rich Holmes

Teachers should not impose their belief that the Earth is round on students 
 who have been brought up to believe that it is flat.
        		--- Jim Cooper, chief for educational matters
        			under Arizona governor Evan Mecham

-- 
Ted Faber		Figment at Large		  faber@loon.cs.wisc.edu
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"The ability to quote is a serviceable substitute for wit." -- Maugham
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