From: qvortrup@inf.ethz.ch (Michael Qvortrup)
Subject: Re: The Keltiad (Re: Recommendation on Fantasy Epic Novels)
Organization: Dept. Informatik, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH), Zurich, CH
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 08:32:30 GMT

In article <77830@ut-emx.uucp> amadeus@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Susan Harwood Kaczmarczik) writes:
>Michael Qvortrup writes:
>>Having only just read the first volume of The Keltiad, I might not
>>know everything I ought to know to have an opinion about the series,
>>but [...]
>
>But you just had to offer one anyway, didn't you?

Yes, but I did warn you.

I am now halfway through the second book, and it hasn't improved one
whit, ehh bit.

>
>>Spoilers may follow.
>

And they still do.


In the following, my old deliberations have, unless strictly needed,
been deleted.

>>[...]
>
>What is your idea of the "redeeming" qualities of space opera, and
>what aspects of that did _The Silver Branch_ not meet?  I enjoyed all
>of the books very much, but _The Silver Branch_ is my favorite.  Maybe
>it's because I wasn't looking for arbitrary qualities of hackneyed
>genres but because I was reading it purely as a work of fiction to be
>judged on its own merits.

I started reading the book with a very open mind (well, apart from the
"sounds like a neat idea" impression).

Redeeming qualities? Difficult to define. Let me try by example. Banks
cuts it. So does Daley. Greenland doesn't.

>And if you like second-guessing the author so much, surely you *are*
>right some of the time for authors other than Patricia Kennealy...?

Of course, but certainly not the whole time.

>>The space/science fiction part is absolutely incredible (or should that
>>be *un*credible?). My willingness to suspend disbelief was mortally wounded
>>when Aeron decides to travel through subspace to destroy the Fomori space
>>base, which btw. at one point in the book was a moon, and at another a
>>planet (if I remember correctly). The description was rather corny.
>
>What's wrong with the subspace sequence?  When was the last time you
>were in subspace, and how would you describe it?  I thought the
>description was particularly evocative and effective, myself.  What
>about it did you find corny, or was it simply that you would have
>described it another way?

No, the describtion of subspace was quite good. What I objected to was the
preceding paragraph describing the context of subspace. Nobody has ever
travelled it before, or even dared. Aeron decides to do it, modifies her
engines in, what 20 min., 2 hours or something like that, and of she goes.
This is comics plot a la Reed in the Fantastic Four.

You should think that, when the technique is so wellknown that an engine
can be modified in so short a time, somebody would have tried it in the
last 2000 years.

>And, by the way, you remember incorrectly.  Bellator was always a
>moon; it was just a moon with inhabitants and was referred to as a
>homeworld, but not a planet.

OK, one wrong. 

>>[...]
>
>Actually, that's not true.  The books were conceived from the start
>just the way you now read them -- the fantasy element just turns out
>to be predominant because it's Celtic mythology, magic, et cetera.

Perhaps. The foreword (or dedication) even hints so. It still reads 
like it was written first as pure fantasy, and then turned into a 
blend with a "search&replace" facility.

>Although the technology may not be as hard-core as you might expect or
>like, I think it's integrated pretty well.

I am not looking for hard-core descriptions, I am looking for consistency!
And that is sorely lacking!

>What is it about sf/fantasy readers that they have to classify and
>codify what they read?  "It's a fantasy epic with a veneer of science
>fiction; why are they trying to write sci-fi?"  Why can't an author
>simply blend elements of these things together without having people
>checking them out with their quantum physics books or their magical
>references?  

They can blend as much as they like, as long as it is well done. I
find the idea fascinating, but the execution doesn't do the potential
justice.

>            It seems to me that technology should just be there when
>you need it, not be described in great detail down to the type of
>screws in the metal of the computer.

We can agree on that, but consistency and crebility, too, please!

>>She also has the bad habit of upping the ante to inconsistent heights
>>when she needs a new plot device. Examples are the ever holier sanctum
>>of the Ban-Droi school and the education Aeron has to go through. First
>>the Ban-Droi school is described as one of the holiest places. Then it
>>is one part of the premises. At the next turn of the story a holier place
>>(for the resp. first and second initiations) is needed, and it is found,
>>first in a room and thereafter in a corner of that room.
>
>Ban-draoi, pronounced "*ban*dree".  It's Irish Gaelic.  

Oh, I am so sorry. I didn't have my Gaelic dictionary along.
How do you pronounce a '*', btw?

>What's the problem with the layout of Scartanore?  It has levels, just
>as many religious mystery orders have levels.  And the novices
>discover (or rather uncover) those levels gradually; the outer circle,
>then a level in, and so on until you reach the center.  Many
>sanctuaries are like that.  Many initiatory paths are like that.  In
>Celtic mysticism, plumbing the depths of the inner circles is integral
>to understanding, and this is the case in many other cultures as well.

Many, many cultures are like that. I have no gripe with the layout of
Scartanore, but with the description of it and the way another, holier
place pops up, when it is needed for a higher level initiation. Kennealy
spends several paragraphs describing the sanctum as the holiest place
(please note form of adjective, 'holiest') there. Then, when a next level
initiation is to take place, there is a next level of the sanctum, which
is even holier. This is not consistent.

>This is not a valid example of your gripe that Kennealy "ups the ante"
>as a mere plot device.

The layout of Scartanore is not a valid example. It was not intended as such
either. Her use and description of it certainly is.

It reads like she went along writing, had Aeron initiated at the first level,
then decided to make her a Domina, too. Oops, can't have the initiation in
the same place as before (nothing wrong with that), let's throw in a holier
corner of the last place, without changing the description of the last time.
 
>>Her use of words also annoyed me no end. "Troublous" and "any road". Hah!
>
>Well, someone else has already pointed out to you that "any road" is
>still used (I, in fact, use it myself from time to time), and you
>looked up "troublous" yourself.  

It isn't so much the words themselves, but the way she uses them the
whole time. Do go round and say "anyway" (or "any road") the whole time?
Kennealy's characters (or a lot of them, at least) do!

How about Japanasian? Isn't in my copy of the OED, and I doubt you can
classify it as Keltic.

>                                But what is this derisive "hah" you
>so knowingly append to the end of your sentence?  So she uses words
>you don't.  Is that intimidating for you or something?

How about "daunting"? "Afraid of using a dictionary" also has a nice ring
to it. Or what about "scared of learning new words and broadening your
horizons"?

Are you very offended that I critisised one of your favourite books?
You sound like it. First a minor spelling flame, now this.

Wolfe may be intimidating for me at times, but this isn't. Only annoying.

>I saw in your later post that you said you liked Donaldson's prose.  I
>think at this point we will simply diverge on personal preferences,
>never to meet, because I think Kennealy is a writer of excellent
>talent and prose style, and consider Donaldson to be a gruesome,
>over-writing, gratuitous hack.  But I really do not see Kennealy's
>choice of the occasional antiquated word of word-form as a mere device
>to show ethnicity.  If you saw someone say "anyway" four times on a
>page, would you even think twice?  Probably not.

Yes, if it happened page after page, and all characters (or many, at least)
use the word, then I most certainly would. And it would still annoy me.

>>It really is a shame. The basic idea of the book held so much
>>promise. I will read the last two volumes, though. Perhaps they get
>>better.
>
>Well, I think they're all wonderful.  I don't know that you will fare
>so well with them, but perhaps you will find _The Copper Crown_ and
>_The Throne of Scone_ more to your liking.  But I really think you
>might enjoy them a bit more if you wouldn't try to pigeonhole them,
>which it seems to me you're doing.

I am not trying to pigeonhole them. I am looking for consistency and
attention to details, the latter which is there with respect to the
Keltic aspects (as far as I can judge) but not in the rest.

>Just my two cents (and then some...)

Call this 2$, then.

Gripes from the second volume follow.

There is a scene, where Aeron is standing on the balcony of her tower in
the capital (I will not try to spell the name). A high tower on the top
of a high cliff, as a matter of fact 3000 feet above the sea. So far no
problems. Then when she go back in she wipes the sea spray from her face.
Sea spray? In 3000 feet? Must be some heluva storm!

The whole first recontact with the Terrans seem extremely contrived to
me. I can't imagine that would be allowed to identify themselves to the
Terrans in the way they did, given that the new 'rapprochement' policy
of the Kelts isn't official yet at that time. It sounds much more likely
that they would have had orders to observe and stand back.

I'll reserve the rest for the next post :-) There are more.

Greetings,
--Mike

-- 
#include <std-disclm.h>--"... and there is a small flaw in my character."---
Real Life: Michael Christian Heide Qvortrup      A Dane         ETH, Zuerich
e-mail   : qvortrup@inf.ethz.ch                  abroad         Switzerland
Institut fuer wissenschaftliches Rechnen  /  Inst. of Scientific Computation