Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 17:00:00 EDT
From:         "Carl A. Lahetta" <U952020@RUTADMIN.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Purgatory: Justice or Works?

> Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 13:15:57 -0400
> From:         Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>
> Subject:      Re: Purgatory: Justice or Works?
>
  >> Carl Lahetta's first response

>
> > > Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1992 19:14:15 GMT
> > > From:         "(Steve Creps)" <creps@SILVER.UCS.INDIANA.EDU>
> > > Subject:      Re: Purgatory: Justice or Works?
> > >
> > >    The Grace of God comes from/through Christ.  "Those who die in the
> > > Grace of God" is another phrase for those who have been forgiven by
> > > God for their sins.  Do not confuse God's forgiveness with His
> > > satisfaction.  The former is related to His mercy; the latter is
> > > related to His justice.
>
> >    Out of all the text I've read in the Bible I've never read anything
> >    about "satisfying" God's justice.  I've read passages that explain
> >    that Christ's blood covers our sins and God sees us as perfect.  Why
> >    would God require "justice" of a perfect spirit?
>
> Scripture says that as we sow, so shall we reap. It also says that we
> shall be repaid according to the works we have done, good or ill; there
> is no favortism, which means Christians don't get off the hook.  This is
> exactly what we speak of.

    How can this be a basis for Purgatory.  I think it might be more along
    the lines of if you sexually sin in your life you will face the
    consequences of it, or alcohol, gossip, and so on.

> > >
> > > >Q.  How long do the souls remain in Purgatory?
> > > >A.  Till they have satisfied God's justice.
> > >
> > >    Purgatory does not do anything for our gaining salvation.  Again,
> > > do not confuse God's forgiveness/mercy with His satisfaction/justice.
>
> >    Biblical ref. please.
>
> Don't have them right now but there are lots of them.  Again, refer to
> the passages which say that we reap what we sow, and that God repays
> each according to the works he has done, good or evil, without showing
> favortism.

    If God did not show favortism then why does he favor those that believe
    in Christ? (That might be stretching it but do you understand what I
    mean?)  As for not showing favortism then why did Jesus tell the theif
    on the cross that he would be with him in Paradise?  Isn't that favortism?
    Why didn't the theif go to Purgatory?  If he didn't then God certainly
    showed favortism.  What is your answer?

> >    ....stuff deleted....
> > >
> > > >Q.  How are sins forgiven?
> > > >A.  Chiefly through the sacraments of baptism and penance.
> > >
> > >    These are Sacraments given us by Christ, therefore it is Christ who
> > > is doing the forgiving.
>
> >    In the Catholic church before the bread and wine is passed out
>
> We pass out no bread and wine.  We do pass out the Body and Blood of
> Christ, however, which can easily be confused with bread and wine.

   sorry, my mistake.
>
> >  the  Catholics acknowledge "one baptism for the forgiveness of sins."  What
> >    baptism?  When the child is an infant?  How does a Catholic reconcile
> >    John 3:16 and other verses where one has to make a *personal* decision
> >    to follow Jesus and *ask* for forgiveness?
>
> What on earth does this have to do with baptism? Of COURSE we believe
> one must make a decision to follow Jesus -- indeed to take up his Cross
> and follow him -- and ask for forgiveness!  Why do you think we
> emphasize the Sacrament of Reconciliation, and confess our sins every
> week at the Liturgy? Why do you think baptismal candidates are asked to
> reject sin, reject Satan and all his empty works and all his empty
> promises?

     I meant infant baptism.  You wrote that to go to heaven "one's sins had
     to be forgiven and one had to do pennance."  Now, are not infants
     baptised?  And do not the Catholics confess "one baptism for the
     forgiveness of sins?"  The baptism you seem to refer to above seems to
     be baptism at a later age in one's life.  Is it this baptism later on
     along with rejection of sin that counts more so than infant baptism?

>
> > If it is just "baptism" that  leads to forgiveness,
>
> Who told you this? This is not at all what we believe.  Baptism effects
> the remission of original sin and -- by virtue of the repentance of the
> candidate -- all personal sin.  But without repentance, there is no
> forgiveness of sin.  For those who commit serious sin after baptism --

   Then why do Catholics worry if an infant is not baptised?  According
   to you the baby must repent, and reject sin.  Is a new born capable
   of this?

> sins such as those Paul mentions exclude a person from heaven in Gal
> 5:19, 1 Cor 6:9, and Eph 5:5 -- there is the Sacrament of Penance, which
> grants the grace of forgiveness to those who are repentant.  Other, less
> serious sins are forgiven merely by personal repentance confession.
>
> > then all who are baptised in the RCC and die while living a sinful life
> > are in Purgatory until they do their pennance.
>
> If they commit serious sin, and if they do not have faith, then they are
> condemned like the unbelievers.  We do not believe the sacraments save
> anyone, especially not apart from faith.  But how much more just is what
> you describe than the Predestinationists who believe that all believers,
> no matter what sinful lives they lead, no matter how little their faith,
> no matter how unrepentant they may be, get into heaven without any
> penance or purgation?

  Just a thought, didn't Jesus say that "not one shall perish", and that
  He will not loose even one?  I wonder if that can justify the saved always
  saved position?

> > If  the response will be from a Catholic that it is not the baptism that
> > cleanses the person from sin, then why do they confess that before
> > communion?
>
> Without getting into a debate about baptism, I will note 1) Catholics
> aren't the only ones who believe that baptism effects remission of sin;
> 2) baptism is ineffective without faith.  It cannot save on its own, it
> is merely a channel of God's grace.

  I thought that baptism was more of a public affirmation of one's faith
  and genuine desire to live a godly life.
>
> > >    Yes, prayers for the Souls in Purgatory can help them.  The "living
> > > faithful" are just that- "living" in that they are still living on
> > > Earth, and "faithful" in that they are members of the Church.  Again,
> > > this has nothing to do with forgiveness, since nobody can get into
> > > Purgatory without having been already forgiven.  Souls go through
> > > Purgatory in order to "make restitution," etc..
>
> >    Once again, where in the Bible is this mentioned.  Also, if one
> >    baptism is required for the forgiveness of sins then Purgatory is
> >    full spirits that sinned on earth and now are getting "justice".
>
> It is mentioned in the same place the Trinity and Incarnation are
> mentioned: implicitly.  Nevertheless we do not based our doctrines on
> Scripture alone, but on both Scripture and Tradition, as Scripture
> instructs us to do.  As I mentioned before, the Sacrament of Penance
> also effects forgiveness of sins for serious sins, and repentance alone
> effects forgiveness of sins for less serious sins.

     I always thought that "sin" is "sin" to God and all are the same to
     Him and that it is man that thinks of one sin worse than another?
>
> > > >Outside of Christ, how can any man "satisfy" God's justice?
> > > >
> > > >Did Christ, according to Catholic doctrine, die for all the sins of all
>  men,
> > > >or only most of the sins of all men? If He died for all the sins, then ho
w
> > > >could there be "venial" sins still not forgiven?
> > >
> > >    Christ died for all our sins.  Nobody said there were venial sins
> > > "not forgiven."  There may be venial sins for which sufficient penance
> > > has not yet been done, but penance comes only _after_ forgiveness.
> > > Penance does _not_ bring about forgiveness.
>
> >     Where oh where did Christ, or the Apostles teach about Purgatory?
>
> That's what we've been discussing all along.
>
> > >
> > >    Again, Purgatory has absolutely nothing to do with forgiveness.  As
> > > I have said many times, one must be already forgiven by God just to
> > > get into Purgatory in the first place.  The main objections I see to
> > > Purgatory show a lack of understanding of what the doctrine really
> > > says.
> > >
> > > -	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
> > > Steve Creps, Indiana University
> > > creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
>
>
> > Carl---------------+
>
> Eric
>
>
> /===========================================================================\
> | Eric Ewanco - Software Engineer   For the rash and outrageous opinions ex-|
> | Digital Equipment, Maynard MA     pressed herein I alone am responsible;  |
> | ewanco@kalvin.enet.dec.com        they do not belong to DIGITAL(TM).      |
> \==========================- 2 Th 2:15 -====================================/
>     "...[T]he greatest and most ancient Church known to all, founded and
>     organized at Rome by [] Peter and Paul, [is] that Church which has the
>     tradition and faith which comes down to us after having been announced
>     to men by the Apostles.  For with this Church, because of its superior
>     origin, all Churches must agree ...  and it is in her that the
>     faithful everywhere have maintained the Apostolic tradition."
>        -- St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, c. 180 A.D., 3,3,3.


Carl-----------------+
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