From: anthropo@carina.unm.edu (Dominick V. Zurlo)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 92 16:29:11 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Distribution: usa

In article <1992Aug29.145536.3961@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:
>Evelyn C. Leeper writes:
>
>>It is only out of an excessive sense of honesty that I point out that
>>Stan is espousing hate in the name of Judaism rather than
>>Christianity.  I as a Jew am as appalled by Stan's posts as much as
>>most Christians are by Pat Robertson's ravings, but I cannot let you
>>blame the Christians or Christianity for this one.
>
>Let me clarify a few points and issues here.
>
>I am reading all these postings on rec.scouting and am responding to
>them on that group consistent with the charter of that group.
>
>The ONLY issue that I am responding to is BSA's exclusion of homosexuals
>from membership.  The BSA position on this has been explained and
>defended.  There is a code of conduct that Scouts must subscribe to
>and "morally straight" is part of the code. I personally feel that the
>Scout Oath and Law do represent positive, laudable, standards of behavior.
>Also, it does NOT represent gay-bashing, as such behavior would be a
>violation of other points of the Oath and Law; in fact, they make
>absolutely no mention of homosexuality, atheism, or any other behavior,
>except as they relate to eligibility for membership in BSA.
 This is a wonderful point, except that "morally straight" has entirely
different connotations now then it did when first written.  To give an
example, the original BSA Handbook describes masturbation as a sin, and that
will cause a boy to go blind, among other vile and evil things.  We all know
that this is not true, and a person will not be adversely affected by
masturbation in that way.  However, that was a part of the original 
definition of morally straight.  Also, the term straight was not used
in it's current context of straight/gay until the late forties, early
fifties.  It's like saying that everytime you talk about gays, you're 
simply talking about fun, carefree people.  WRONG!
>
>Clearly, the gay rights agenda, as I understand it, is that sexual
>preference should not matter in anything, as such behavior is
>perfectly normal and thus should not be labelled as immoral. Fine,
>but that's only one point of view; another point of view is that our
>religions teach us that we can control our behavior, that we are above
>our animal instincts, and that there are certain things that God
>expects from us.  Now, these two points are going to clash in religious
>based organizations, such as BSA as well as in church or synagogue youth
>groups.  I mean, in the same way that I would not want any adult leader
>in my son's Boy Scout Troop to live an openly immoral lifestyle (and
>this also includes "sleeping around"), because there is no way that I'd
>want teenage boys to be given the impression that such behavior is
>"correct", I would also expect heavy parental resistance to a synagogue
>youth group leader who is married to a non-Jew (as such marriages are
>prohibited by traditional Jewish law), or to my wanting to be a youth
>group leader at the local church.
 1). Sexual orientation, not preferance.  Until you can prove it is a 
choice, which I personally do not believe, the correct term is 
orientation.  
 2). Please stop being Judeo-Christian centered.  A Buddist, depending upon 
the particular sect, will accept homosexuality.  Stop imposing your religion
upon mine.  We aren't talking religion, and the BSA does not specify what 
religion you must belong to.  In fact, one of the lawsuits regarding 
with-holding an Eagle badge from a scout revolved around just that issue.  
THe BSA decided at that time, that it was not belonging to an organized 
religion, but beleiving in a "Higher power."   Also, look at all the religious
badges.  They aren't all for Judeo-Christians . (I don't remember the 
particular case.  Anyone remember?).
 3). Again, stop being ethnocentric.  You may consider it immoral for an
individual to sleep around, but many cultures around the world encourage it.
Just because you do not prescribe to it does not make it immoral.  Just not
within your beliefs.  So, gay or straight, doesn't matter in this instance.
 4).So, you're fairly rigid in your beliefs.  Then if you don't like the 
scoutmaster/other leaders in a troop, find another one.  Troops split 
over smaller issues than this continually.  if a troop has a gay leader, 
and you don't like that, find a troop that doesn't have one.  There are
definately enough troops to do that.  Just as you;d attend another 
synagogue.    >-- 
So, Stan, what it all comes down to is simple.  Are you going to continue 
with your contradictory and offensive and unscout-like conduct, or are 
you going to put your prejudices aside, examine them and then see if you
can conscionably continue with them.  We're really not talking legal here.
The courts are just a mechanism.  It may end up that the courts will 
decide that the BSA has the "right" to exclude lesbigays, but will that 
decision if it occurs be the morally right or even proper decision to 
enforce.  If the BSA wants to talk about being a non-denominational
religious organization, then no more government food.  After all, one
must pray before meals at camp.  No more free equipment for camps from 
the armed forces surplus, after all, one must give reverance to God, and 
there is a legal seperation of church and state in this country.  How can
we expect kids to grow up "morally straight" when their role models 
espouse one thing, but practice another.  
   The "gay rights" agenda (of which I know of none in particular, just a
segment of people caring about the same issues) is quie simply you're 
way of making an excuse to continue excluding people.  If we dehumanize
them, it's easier to discriminate.  Gays aren't immoral, just different
morals.  As any other culture has.  Stop being so ethnocentric.  I'd think 
the world has seen enough ethnocentrism this century from Hitler.  

>Stan Krieger                     All opinions, advice, or suggestions, even
>AT&T UNIX System Laboratories    if related to my employment, are my own.
>Summit, NJ
>smk@usl.com
Dominick V. Zurlo
Eagle Scout
terminated from BSA employment for being gay
Anthropologist 
Gay Rights Advocate

These opinions are mine, mine, all mine, and no one elses.

Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality