HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gregj@kong.eng.hou.compaq.com (Greg Judkins)
Subject: Re: Old topic:  Saturns
Organization: Compaq Computer Corp.
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 18:12:54 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.083038.6547@news.cs.indiana.edu> Amy Young Leith <alyoung@kiwi.ucs.indiana.edu> writes:
>I know that Saturn has been rolled over and over and over again in
>this newsgroup, but I have to ask: 
>
>1)Is the customer service as great as they make it to be?  
>
So far, yes.  I have not needed any "service" yet.  The times that I have
called the dealer or national support number I have been completely satisfied.

>2)Is there really more "honest" pricing, like the sticker is what you
>pay, no haggling and back stabbing, etc?
>
When I first started looking at Saturns, I went to the dealer closest to where
I live.  After talking with them and trying to get them to come down, I called
one of the other dealers here in Houston.  This dealer is owned by a completely
different company, BTW.  The sales manager asked me what part of town I lived
in and when I told him he suggested that I go see the sales manager at the 
dealership I had originally been to.  He even gave me the name and phone number
of the sales manager.  I have never been referred to a competing dealership by
a Honda/Mazda/VW/Nissan/Toyota/Ford/Chevy... dealership. :)

>3)I'm not real familiar with the available models, and we have no
>dealer here.  So, until I get to Indy to look, what are some of the
>smaller models, and price range? 
>
>amy

Here's the Saturn Customer Service Center phone number.  One the services is
that they will mail you brochures as well as point you to the nearest dealer.

Good luck,
Greg

P.S.  I love my '92 SL2.
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: mark@modcomp.uucp (Mark Marschke)
Subject: Opinions on the FORD Explorer
Organization: MODCOMP, an AEG company
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 12:55:42 GMT


I am considering buying a FORD Explorer. Anyone out there have any
opinions pro and con about the Explorer? I am specially interested
in what kind of reliability I can expect. (I hope it is not the same
as the Bronco.) Thanks in advance.

Xref: sparky rec.autos:20365 rec.autos.driving:5049 rec.autos.sport:9059 rec.autos.tech:11474 rec.autos.vw:4815
From: thartman@aludra.usc.edu (Tyson Hartman)
Newsgroups: rec.autos,rec.autos.driving,rec.autos.sport,rec.autos.tech,rec.autos.vw
Subject: VW for Sale
Keywords: VW, Sale
Date: 20 Aug 92 23:46:21 GMT
Distribution: ca
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: aludra.usc.edu

1975 VW Superbeetle for sale!  
Black, new tires, new rims, good suspension. 
Excellent chocolate brown interior, good exterior.

Act fast, must sell to pay for tuition!!
Will sacrifice at $1000.
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: Amy Young Leith <alyoung@kiwi.ucs.indiana.edu>
Subject: Old topic:  Saturns
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 08:30:33 -0500

I know that Saturn has been rolled over and over and over again in
this newsgroup, but I have to ask: 

1)Is the customer service as great as they make it to be?  

2)Is there really more "honest" pricing, like the sticker is what you
pay, no haggling and back stabbing, etc?

3)I'm not real familiar with the available models, and we have no
dealer here.  So, until I get to Indy to look, what are some of the
smaller models, and price range? 

amy
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: norcott_bill@tandem.com (Bill Norcott)
Subject: Re: T-Bird turbo coupe
Reply-To: norcott_bill@tandem.com  (Bill Norcott)
Organization: Tandem Computers, Inc.
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 01:55:41 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.223616.3420@osf.org>, kenny@osf.org (Kenneth Crudup) writes:

<re: idle speed problem>

|> FORD'S ENGINE CPU IS TOO STUPID TO HANDLE IDLE SPEED CONTROL OR 
|> COLD STARTS PROPERLY.
|> 

I used to think that Kenny was kvetching about the EEC-IV.  I also
thought I had the thing figured out, but it has a way of changing its
behavior in unpredictable ways.  I have the non-turbo CFI version of
the 2.3l engine.  The idle speed control motor (on the CFI it's
actually a stepper motor), has never really worked properly -- the car
is an '87 Topaz I bought a 10 mo. ago with 74,000 miles on it, now it
has 82,000.  

Between changing the TPS and adjusting the screw that controls the
minimum air flow for idle, I got it to the point where I can not worry
about it. It took a few tries, but now it is so that you just have to
give it a bit of gas for maybe 30 seconds the first cold start of the
day.  Then it holds a 800-900 RPM in drive when cold or warm and
doesn't surge or stall.  It seems to be in a stable condition now,
even for very long trips when it would tend to lean out and lose power
or surge -- no more.  In neutral or park the idle still swings wildly
in about a 500 RPM range but hey, who cares, I just keep it in drive
and luckily the emissions test for idle speed specifies measure it in
drive.

Part of the problem I think is that the thing has so many sensors that
are supposed to effect basically the same thing, the air/fuel ratio
and the volume of fuel.  They violated KISS and then did not build in
enough software to deal correctly with all the sensors.  

Xref: sparky rec.autos:20295 rec.autos.driving:5029 rec.autos.tech:11407 rec.autos.vw:4792
From: davet@ksr.com (Dave Teichholtz)
Newsgroups: rec.autos,rec.autos.driving,rec.autos.tech,rec.autos.vw
Subject: Re: reliable cars
Date: 20 Aug 92 09:11:14 EDT
	<1992Aug18.170909.12764@galileo.cc.rochester.edu>
	<1992Aug18.190956.27177@phri.nyu.edu>
Organization: Kendall Square Research, Waltham, MA
In-reply-to: roy@alanine.phri.nyu.edu's message of 18 Aug 92 15:09:56 EDT

In article <1992Aug18.190956.27177@phri.nyu.edu> roy@alanine.phri.nyu.edu (Roy Smith) writes:

>   You see a lot of people with Rabbit Diesels who are fanatics about their
>   cars.  How many Dodge Dart fanatics do you see?


   Used to be quite a few. I have had two myself, and am still kicking myself
   for selling my '72 Dart Swinger in 1984. Car had 140,000 on it, and 
   ran like new. Oh well, live and learn...

-David
--
============================================================================
David Teichholtz                 Kendall Square Research 
davet@ksr.com                    170 Tracer Lane, 
(617) 895-9466                   Waltham Mass. 02154-1379

Women think men will change after marriage.  Men think women won't.
They're both wrong
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: rxkgre@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au (Geof Evans)
Subject: Re: Purple tail lights?!? (was Re: Red vs. amber turn signals)
Organization: RMIT Computer Centre, Melbourne Australia.
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 18:53:40 EST

wales@valeria.cs.ucla.edu (Rich Wales) writes:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stuff deleted 8-> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

>Purple tail lights.

>I've only seen this a few times (but definitely more than once).  I'm
>guessing that it's one of those "cool" :-} off-road-type accessories --
>and that it's illegal for regular highway use.

>=Why= would anyone use something like this??

<<<* Ask any hotrodder...we *might* tell ya......
     blue dots are indeeed *cool* as.....
-- 
  ___________________________________________________________________  
|| Geof Evans                 | DOMAIN: rxkgre@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au  ||
|| Melbourne,Australia 3000   | Tel: +61 3 663 3663		     ||
||   If they *really* wanna know...tell 'em that God was drunk.      ||
||___________________________________________________________________||

			
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: marquis@well.sf.ca.us (Roger Marquis)
Subject: Re: Care to comment on Alfa vs. Miata?
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 05:42:20 GMT

In article <1992Aug15.035833.14602@leland.Stanford.EDU> dualist@leland.Stanford.EDU (Thomas Edward Schutz) writes:
>I drove a Miata a few times and had a lot of fun.  Now I'm
>contemplating getting that type of machine (probably used).
>
>Never had a chance to drive one of the Alfa models, though.
>Any thoughts or experiences comparing the two, in terms of owner costs,
>pure fun of driving, etc?
>
>Tom S.

I drove a Miyata too and was impressed with its road holding
ability.  For the same price though ($16K) I found a pristine '89 
Alfa Spider.  With the addition of 4 wide Yokohamas I have one
beautiful handling car.  I chose the Alfa because they look 100%
better than their Japanese brothers, have trunks that can hold a few
cases of beer instead of max 1 6-pak and are unequalled for
interior styling (natural leather seats, beautiful guages, nice
stereo).  The fabric top is also much nicer looking than vinyl.
Stated horsepower is similar ~120 hp.

On the down side I expect to pay considerably more for maintenance
over the next couple of years.  Shifting is clearly inferior (those
darn 2nd gear synchros).  Parts are also a bit more difficult to find.

Faced with the same decision I would make the same choice even if
the Alfa were $5K more expensive.  Taking this car out on a sunny
weekend afternoon, with the top down (of course), on a winding
mountain road is orders of magnitude more pleasurable than anything else
I've ever experienced in a (moving ;-) automobile.

Roger (marquis@well.sf.ca.us)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: tedebear@leland.Stanford.EDU (Theodore Chen)
Subject: Re: Shelby Dodge
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 19:38:04 GMT

In article <f3@byu.edu> earlyd@ee.byu.edu (David Early) writes:
>His question:  How an he improve engine performance (I think
>he is talking speed and power, not necessarily fuel economy).

i don't think there is much of a problem understanding what you
mean by engine performance.  only consumer reports would hear
"engine performance" and think "fuel economy."
-teddy
p.s. did he check the mopar catalogs?
From: philg@zurich.ai.mit.edu (Philip Greenspun)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Ford consumer hotline and FORD recalls
Date: 12 Aug 92 20:38:49 GMT
Reply-To: philg@martigny.ai.mit.edu
Organization: M.I.T. Artificial Intelligence Lab.
In-reply-to: anthony@georgetown.nrl.navy.mil's message of 10 Aug 92 18:05:22 GMT


In article <3268@ra.nrl.navy.mil> anthony@georgetown.nrl.navy.mil (Anthony Kee) writes:

   Does anyone know the # for the Ford Consumer hotline?


   Also does anyone know of any recalls on 89 Mercury Topaz's.
   The car in question has cracked and spidered paint after only
   3 years even with lots of care and attention.

The Ford consumer hotline won't help you, if my 15 unreturned phone
calls to them are anything to go by.  If the car is out of warranty
(and even when it is under warranty as with my car), Ford's attitude
is to deny everything.

Here's what I recommend:

Call the NHTSA hotline (800 555 1212 will give you the #) so that you
can request a complete list of problems with this year car.  No doubt
other consumers will have complained about the same problem.

Sue them in small claims court.  I know this is extreme, but you are
talking about Ford, a company with no sense of shame or honor and any
extrajudicial action will be ignored.  When Ford commits perjury by
telling the judge that you are a lunatic and that no one else has ever
had any problems with these cars, etc., you can whip out the moby
stack of problems that NHTSA will have sent you, with the paint
problems highlighted.

This kind of technique worked pretty well for me after I got tired of
wasting my breath on more polite techniques.  Unfortunately, Ford
recently hired a sleazy lawyer to sue me for all kinds of random
reasons (e.g. "distributing privileged information about Ford") and
generally make my life hell.

When I suggested to them that they invest in fixing my car's brakes
and engine (still under warranty and never properly working) and/or
better engineers rather than sleazy lawyers, they looked genuinely
stunned.

Good luck.

Philip Greenspun
MIT Department of EE
From: rick@posms.cactus.org (Rick Kirchhof)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Timing belts-engine at risk
Summary: check the Gates application guide
Keywords: bent valves, interference
Date: 20 Aug 92 03:56:15 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Department of Redundancy Dept., Austin


For those of you that want a little third party input, go to any auto
parts vendor that carries Gates timing belts.  In their applications
catalog the engines which are certain or likely to sustain engine damage
because of timing belt breakage are so marked.

Follow the manufacturers recommendations for miles until replacement
time, but be conservative (60,000 max) for engines that WILL suffer
damage.  Keep in mind that there are profits to be made doing this work,
AND that interference engines WILL cost dramatically more to repair after
a failure than to maintain.  If someone is saying something about an
unusually long life for such a belt, ask who will pay the bill if the
recommendation is wrong.

I have no affiliation with Gates or any other vendor.  I have no reason
to believe that their catalog is totally error free, nor that it is not a
good general guide.  There probably are other reliable application guides
that also carry this info, but my experience is that this catalog is
accurate.
-- 
Rick Kirchhof   Austin, Texas                   | Experience is what you
Domain: rick@posms.cactus.org                   | get when you don't
Bang path: ...!cs.utexas.edu!peyote!posms!rick  | get what you want.            
===========================================================================
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: tedebear@leland.Stanford.EDU (Theodore Chen)
Subject: Re: Consumers Union needs a new driver
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 21:03:59 GMT

In article <1992Aug19.153217.2075@cbnewsh.cb.att.com> fwk@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (f.w.kerfoot..iii) writes:
>From article <+=fyapm@rpi.edu>, by johnsh@aix.rpi.edu (Hugh Johnson):
>It is interesting to read some of the techniques that the enthusiast
>magazines use to achieve the best possible numbers for acceleration,
>like clutch drops at the red line, etc. While it is interesting to know
>the ultimate capabilities of a car you migh buy in that sense, it is
>also interesting to know the capabilities of the car in a less
>maintenance-intensive mode, like normal clutch engaugement, and then
>nail it.

the car rags (at least C/D) publish 5-60 mph figures along with 0-60 stats.
the 5-60 mph number is for a street start with the clutch fully engaged.
-teddy
Xref: sparky rec.autos:20285 rec.autos.driving:5025 rec.autos.sport:9010 rec.autos.tech:11400 rec.autos.vw:4788
From: rrusk@ssd.csd.harris.com (Bob Rusk)
Newsgroups: rec.autos,rec.autos.driving,rec.autos.sport,rec.autos.tech,rec.autos.vw
Subject: Re: reliable cars
Date: 19 Aug 92 20:15:32 GMT
	<1992Aug18.202616.22716@walter.bellcore.com>
	<1992Aug18.220910.27207@linus.mitre.org>
	<1992Aug19.160444.4189@microplex.com>
Reply-To: rrusk@ssd.csd.harris.com
Organization: Harris Computer Systems Division

On 19 Aug 92 16:04:44 GMT, hsk@microplex.com (Harjeet Kalsi) wrote:

>DISCLAIMER: DIESELS - you either love them or hate them.

>As for those who think "who buys diesels anyway", well, in Europe diesel 
>car sales have been *increasing* consistently every year for over a decade.  
>1992 is projected to be another "record" year.  

>With new emission standards taking effect this year in Britain, the diesel 
>is being touted as the "green" engine because its emissions are *less* than 
>those of gas engines.  The government is offering incentives to buyers that
>go diesel.  You can get diesels in Europe in every thing from Fiats to BMWs.

>Anyway, I know I've strayed somewhat from the subject, but I happen to be
>one of those people that LOVES diesels.  Can't see myself ever buying a 
>gas model when a diesel is available.   

[ Complaint mode on ]

Yes, I love them too.  I had an '81 Toyota Diesel Pickup which was totalled
out from under me after 120K miles of hard use.  The original engine still 
had compression within spec for a brand new one.  Of course, Toyota had
stopped bringing them into the USA about 6 months before that, and I couldn't
find a new one (or almost-new one) anywhere.  In fact, it seems that
nobody except VW and Mercedes are bringing them in now.  And nobody puts
one in a small pickup, van, or station wagon for under $30K.

I often wonder if Americans lost interest in diesels due to the horrid
Oldsmobile V8 and V6 diesels that GM sold so many of in the late 70's
and early 80's.  I have yet to meet anybody who cares for their cars
who has had major trouble with any diesel except for the Oldsmobile
and the GM 6.2.

Anyway, just rub it in a little more about how you can get almost any
car you want with a diesel in it over there, while I have to buy yet
another computer-controlled gasoline-burner over here.  :-(  Does anybody
have any solid info as to why this is?

[ Complaint mode off ]

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Bob Rusk			    | An egoless acceptance of stuckness is a
 rrusk@ssd.csd.harris.com	    | key to an understanding of all Quality.
 My thoughts, probably not Harris'. |			   - Robert M. Pirsig
From: rxkgre@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au (Geof Evans)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Lotus Elan vs Mercury Capri
Date: 18 Aug 92 00:31:48 GMT
Organization: RMIT Computer Centre, Melbourne Australia.

summ50@cse.unl.edu writes:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> article deleted <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

>>On a road with bends the Elan will beat it every time. 

>I like this comparison.  The only thing I have to add is the fact that the
>Lotus Elan is also one of the best-handling front-wheel drive cars built.

<<<* THE best handling front driver...no question.
     Rear drivers still have it from THIS drivers point of view.

-- 
  ___________________________________________________________________  
|| Geof Evans                 | DOMAIN: rxkgre@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au  ||
|| Melbourne,Australia 3000   | Tel: +61 3 663 3663		     ||
||   If they *really* wanna know...tell 'em that God was drunk.      ||
||___________________________________________________________________||
From: bense@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Ron Bense)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Any opinions on '80 to '85 Volvos ?  Please.
Date: 17 Aug 92 11:56:23 GMT
Reply-To: bense@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Ronald Bense)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD

In rec.autos, jxt@calmasd.Prime.COM (Jawahar Tembulkar) writes:

>Am considering buying a Volvo wagon of the '80 to '85 vintage.
>Is there anything specific that one should watch out for ( that
>is besides the regular stuff that one would watch out for in any
>used car ! ) ?  Do they come with a fold-down third seat ?  Is
>the four cyl. preferable to the six cylin. ?  Any opinions on
>the turbos ( diesel and gasoline ) ?

Don't get a regular diesel. Second, watch out for rust in the driver
side floorboards. THose years of volvos were notorious for rusting out
quickly. (You actually also need to check the floorboard behind the
driver's seat, it'd be unsettling to find your seat on the ground while
doing 55+ on the highway!) Other thatn that, I personally had no problems
with my Volvo for 150k miles. Have fun.

Ron

Potassium Benzoate included as a preserver.
From: za72@sdcc3.ucsd.edu (mo'money)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: CRX vs Del Sol
Date: 16 Aug 92 20:14:01 GMT

I was wondering what are people's opinions in
regard to the new Del Sol as compare to the CRX.

IMHO, the new Del Sol looks as stupid as the new Prelude.
Xref: sparky rec.autos:20396 rec.autos.driving:5056 rec.autos.tech:11499
From: bednarek@picard.med.ge.com (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971)
Newsgroups: rec.autos,rec.autos.driving,rec.autos.tech
Subject: Re: Recommendations for Mini Van
Date: 21 Aug 92 10:27:26 GMT
Article-I.D.: mr.1992Aug21.102726.5173
Organization: GE Medical Systems, Magnetic Resonance
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5


Why don't you consider a full size van.  The price dif is not that great
and the room is great.  Remember you have one in the popper now but ho
w do you know that is yhe last one.

Seriously I have a 20 series Chevy van that pulls 20 miles to the gallon
and wouldn't complain about it after 130,000 miles.  Lets see someone
pull that off a min van.

Dennis

--

  
###############################################################################
###NEVER - NEVERMORE###########################################################
###############################################################################
####################################What are the contents of the oblong box?##
###############################################################################
  The usual disclaimer of self and employer applies to all above comments.
#
Newsgroups: rec.autos
From: katriel@watson.ibm.com (Ron Katriel)
Subject: Re: Honda Civic Bashing continues...
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 21:40:04 GMT
Distribution: na
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

In article <1992Aug21.200306.11526@mlb.semi.harris.com>, cbh@opus.mlb.semi.harris.com (Cherie Slasor) writes:

|> OK.  It seems to be about 50/50 on those pro-Civic and those anti-Civic.
|> It sounds like Hondas (at least the Civics) are like most other things
|> you buy - some are made better than others.  Any more comments either
|> for or against?  Because so far I'm still planning on getting one unless
|> I get an overwhelming negative response.
|> ....
|> ====================================================================
|> Cherie Slasor			     |	Harris Semiconductor
|> Phone:    (407) 724-7607	     |	P.O. Box 883, MS #62B-022
|>           cbh@mlb.semi.harris.com    |  Melbourne, FL   32902-0883
-- 

I have owned two Civics (base model) over the past three years and
just got an Accord LX.  My wife drives an Accord, too (a hatchback).
Besides minor rattles developing after a few years we are very happy
with our Honda's.  The cars are very reliable, have adequate engines,
handle well, look good and are fun to drive.

One should be very careful about estimating the frequency of problems
with Honda's by counting the number of pro-/anti- votes.  It is quite
likely that many more people with problems will post to the net than
people who are basically happy.  Much more reliable statistics can be
obtained from a source such as Consumer Reports.  According to their
numbers, Honda's are still among the most reliable cars sold in the US.
--------------------------------
Ron Katriel
Mathematical Sciences Department
Thomas J. Watson Research Center
================================
Disclaimer: The opinions expressed in this note do not represent the
            opinions of the IBM corporation.
From: basiji@milton.u.washington.edu (David Basiji)
Newsgroups: rec.autos
Subject: Re: Request for info on Farmers Auto Insurance
Date: 18 Aug 92 18:16:30 GMT
Article-I.D.: milton.basiji.714161790
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Washington

junck@okra.fnal.gov (Kevin Junck) writes:


>The subject line pretty much says it all.  My auto insurance is up for
>renewal and I've been looking at switching to Farmers from AllState.
>Any comments (both pro/con) would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks!

>--
>Kevin L. Junck     a.k.a. Junck@okra.fnal.gov            708-840-8368
>Fermi National Accelerator Lab                 Batavia, Illinois, USA
>#include <std.disclaimer.h>                 ** HAIL TO THE VICTORS **

Have you compared rates?  Last I checked, Farmers was 30% more expensive
than Allstate.  I used to be a Farmers customer (great agent) but I
got tired of the yearly 40% rate increases despite my clean record.

Run, run fast.

Dave Basiji

-- 
David Basiji 
"C neophyte, Bioengineering Grad Student, Internet Personality"

email: basiji@u.washington.edu          
NeXTmail: basiji@larry.pathology.washington.edu

		"Whining is just anger coming out of a very small hole."
            --Stuart Smalley
Newsgroups: rec.autos