HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: zeleny@husc10.harvard.edu (Michael Zeleny)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: Chomsky's "Minimalist" paper
Date: 30 Jul 92 15:42:38 GMT
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

In article <1992Jul30.131645.648@athena.mit.edu> 
pesetsk@athena.mit.edu (David M Pesetsky) writes:

>In article <SCHILLER.92Jul29190137@tira.uchicago.edu>
>schiller@tira.uchicago.edu (Eric Schiller) writes:

ES:
>>Don't know what you mean. I checked the data with LOTS of native
>>speakers, and I believe that Fowler did too. Maybe you should
>>get together with Kartik and invent some normative Russian that
>>no one speaks. Really, people do use the construction. it is
>>not the invention of a linguist. As I noted in one of my
>>posts, not ALL speakers accept it, but then that is not
>>the point. 

Your ill-informed dissent has been noted.  I conjecture that your
informants' linguistic sensibilities are as stunted as your good
manners.  In my own poll, not a single speaker has accepted your
construction.

DP:
>Linguistics rule #1: Don't badger the native speaker. Especially not in public.
>
>On the other hand, I apologized a bit too soon.  The example with three
>datives was indeed my error, but the example with two is one that I also
>have encountered and had native speakers accept -- this is the "nam bylo
>pomoch' emu" (to-us was help to-you 'we had to help you') example.

Again, my experience differs.

DP:
>Perhaps the problem is the use of a modal dative embedding a verb that
>itself accepts dative -- some parsing problem?
>
>So let us construct an example without that feature.
>
>Mr. Zeleny, is "nam bylo poexat' tuda" `to-us was go there` also
>impossible for you?  Do you also need 'nado' in there?

Absolutely.  So does everyone I've asked so far.

ES:
>>A linguistic theory must at least account for
>>all attested data (the old descriptive adequacy). This
>>is data we syntacticians must wrestle with, as Fowler did
>>in his dissertation.

Well, in this case it appears that your data suffers from an internal
contradiction.  There goes "the old descriptive adequacy"...

DP:
>Do you mean this the way it sounds?  I certainly hope "attested" doesn't
>mean first and foremost "included in the examples section of a
>linguistics dissertation".  Can I just go and make stuff up and you
>promise to wrestle with it?  I am not at all implying that Fowler made
>anything up -- indeed, his data coincides with my own experience of what
>informants accept -- but a dissertation is not the ultimate authority on
>facts.

I like your point, but doubt that Mr Schiller will be convinced by
this argument.

DP:
>And shouldn't that be "us syntacticians"?

Perhaps it should be "you syntacticians", in contradistinction from
anyone who uses the language without official certification.

>-David Pesetsky
>

regards,
mikhail zeleny@husc.harvard.edu
Organization: Masters student, Philosophy, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 13:01:23 -0400 
From: Soren Renner <sr3j+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: what has happened to "ascribe" ?

"...Annie Dillard, a careful writer ..."

I read one of her books, and I think the proper term for what she does
is "Writing", with a capital W, the whole word in italics. False feeling
from start to finish. Graduate-program-in-creative-writing-writing. 


Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: hlirg@alf.uib.no (Roger Greenwald)
Subject: Re: etymol. of the word "Viking"
Keywords: norse, viking, etymology
Organization: University of Bergen, Norway
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 02:53:30 GMT

In article <2A75F9D4.4005@noiro.acs.uci.edu> cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>In article <3978@novavax.UUCP> vaccaro@novavax.UUCP (N. Trafford Vaccaro) writes:
>>Referring to the above subject line, does anyone know the origin of the
>>word "Viking"? My dictionary is inadequate in this area. Thanks!
>>
>>
>>Nicholas Vaccaro
>
>This may be the kind of post that grates on your nerves like nails on a
>blackcoard, BUT . . .
>
>I think it came from the gerund form of a verb that meant "to plunder,"
>meaning "those who go viking."  I do not, however (hence the source of
>the frustration) have a reference.
>
>Regards,
>Janis C.

The Vikings called themselves Vikings (Vikingr). Therefore, if
your proposed etymology were correct, there would have to be
a word in Old Norse that had the "vik" root and meant "to plunder";
the Vikings would have had to consider themselves plunderers; and
they would have had to consider themselves plunderers _before_
they embarked on their extensive raids. Not too likely, I'd day.

As far as I know, no one knows the etymology of this word. The two
speculations I've seen are: from Scandinavian "vik" (small bay, cove,
inlet); from Old English "wic" (encampment). I can't think why
the Vikings would have borrowed their name for themselves from the
Old-English-speakers.

Maybe someone who knows Old Norse or Icelandic and is up on
linguistic research can supply a better answer.
-- 
Roger Greenwald
Greenwald@hf.uib.no (address valid only until 10 August 1992)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: Are you sure? No, definite.
From: kyle@animal
Date: 28 Jul 92 15:08:00 GMT
 <1992Jul17.105015.17987@cs.tu-berlin.de> <1992Jul20.165728.21746@cc.ic.ac.uk>
Nntp-Posting-User: kyle

In article <1992Jul20.165728.21746@cc.ic.ac.uk>, shan@ee.ic.ac.uk (Shan Parfilt) writes:
> In article <1992Jul17.105015.17987@cs.tu-berlin.de> wolfi@opal.cs.tu-berlin.de (Wolfgang Schwanke) writes:
>>shan@ee.ic.ac.uk (Shan Parfilt) writes:
>>
>>>>'Oui' is the mutilated form of vulgar Latin 'hoc ille' ('so it is') as used
>>>>in northern France. So is 'oc', its southern counterpart.
>>>>* Wolfgang
>>>
>>>'Oui' is not the 'mutilated' form of anything. It might however be the 
>>>'descendant' of something - or some such similarly objective, scientifically
>>>justifiable phrase. The 'vulgar' in 'Vulgar Latin' is another term like 
>>>'mutilated', although this particular phrase has come in time to stand
>>>for a particular type of Latin (ie non- 'standard').  
>>>
>>>Shan Parfitt
>>
>>You seem to imply some negative connotation, which I never intended of course.
>>I translated from a book, perhaps badly. The original term was 'verschliffen',
>>should I have used 'slurred'?
>>
>>Wolfgang
> 
> I would say that 'slurred' has a negative connotation aswell! What's wrong 
> with something like 'mutated' , 'modified', or something? Or 'descendant'?
> Shan

I would like to point out to Shan that the "vulgar" in Vulgar Latin did
not start out to be a demeaning term. All it meant was "folk" as in
folk Latin, and in fact it may be seen that Latin "vulgus" is etymologically
related to out word "folk."  It was later generations of snobs who
redefined the word vulgar, meaning "of the people," to mean "coarse."
Once again, I would say that connotations are relative to the audience
(see my other posting regarding this topic).
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: martinn@mksol.dseg.ti.com (niels r martin)
Subject: Re: Minority Languages in the EC
Organization: Texas Instruments, Inc
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 16:59:24 GMT

In article <199207272159.AA27024@tuna.wang.com> MICHAEL.WILLETT@OFFICE.WANG.COM ("Michael Willett") writes:
>Regarding Catalan, besides being the dominant language in
>Catalunya (Catalonia), it is also the official language of
>the prinicipality of Andorra.  I recall driving through
>Andorra during the winter and seeing street signs written
>only in Catalan.  One read: Perill-Gel, meaning Danger-Ice!
>
>Interestingly enough, there is an advertisement by Catalunya
>in this week's Economist news magazine by the Catalan
>development agency, timed to coincide with the olympics.  It
>describes Catalunya repeatedly as a country.  It does also
>make a brief mention once about Catalunya being a country
>within Spain.

As I recall, Catalonia was a state in its own right for quite a while, until    the Castillians took them over in the 17th or 18th century (correct my dates if they are way off--I don't have the references at work)  I suppose that the localpeople would like to think of themselves as a country--after all many Texans do!
   
I also recall driving through Andorra before I was really mindful of the fact   that Catalan was spoken there.  Being fluent in French and able to get by in 
Spanish, I thought that it was interesting that Catalan seemed to be (to the
outsider) in many instances either a Spaniard spelling French or a Frenchman    tring to spell Spanish.  In any case it was most interesting and informative.


-- 
________________________________________________________________________________Niels Martin				|                      
martinn@mksol.dseg.ti.com		|  AGM-88  Get out of HARM's way!!
My opinions don't represent		|  10,000+ on-time deliveries!
my employer's--but they're right!	|  Best Radar 'Detector' Around!   
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: choy@skorpio.usask.ca
Subject: There's a method in this madness.
Organization: University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 14:54:42 GMT

A lot of people have accused me of being unable to read. Is there
a recipe for reading? Some quick pull-out reference guide?

Henry Choy
choy@cs.usask.ca
From: eddie@cstr.ed.ac.uk (Eddie Rooney)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Language teaching conferences in Canada?
Keywords: language, applied linguistics
Date: 28 Jul 92 15:36:38 GMT
Organization: Centre for Speech Technology Research, Edinburgh University

A friend of mine, a language teacher with research interests, was
asking if I knew of any conferences on Applied Linguistics, language
teaching or languages in general (NOT linguistics) being held in
Canada this year or next.  Can anyone suggest anything?  Replies
by email would be appreciated.

Thanks.

=========================================================================

Edmund Rooney					email:eddie@cstr.ed.ac.uk

Centre for Speech Technology Research
University of Edinburgh
80, South Bridge,
Edinburgh EH1 1HN
Scotland

=========================================================================
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: Chomsky's "Minimalist" paper
From: zeleny@husc9.harvard.edu (Michael Zeleny)
Date: 29 Jul 92 16:02:48 EDT
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

In article <36538@uflorida.cis.ufl.edu> 
djohns@elm.circa.ufl.edu (David A. Johns) writes:

>In article <1992Jul23.113534.4232@athena.mit.edu> 
>pesetsk@athena.mit.edu (David M Pesetsky) writes:

DMP:
>>nam est' 

Wrong case.  Try "u nas est' komu pomoch' yemu"

>>mnye   (bylo)   pomoch'     yemu

Nonsense.  The ellipsis is not allowable; in any case, it should have
been "mnye nado/nuzhno bylo pomoch' yemu"

>>me-DAT was-NEUT help-infin  him-DAT

me-DAT need was-NEUT help-infin  him-DAT

>>`I had to help him/I was supposed to help him`
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>There are more interesting cases, like (cf. Gil Rappaport, Russian
>>Linguistics circa 1986):
>>
>>nam est' komu pomoch' yemu

"u nas est' komu pomoch' yemu"

Where do you get these experts?

DAJ:
>Here's one I ran into on soc.culture.soviet a couple of months ago:
>
>        v  Kieve ix       bylo          polno
>        in Kiev  them-GEN was-NEUT/SING full-NEUT/SING

Wrong case (same spelling):
         in Kiev  them-ACC was-NEUT/SING many

Attention: "p\'olno" = "full"; "poln\'o" = "many".

>        'Kiev was full of them (Russians, as I remember)'
>
>David Johns

regards,
mikhail zeleny@husc.harvard.edu
who has the authority of a native speaker
Newsgroups: sci.lang,sci.classics,sci.anthropology,talk.philosophy.misc,sci.philosophy.meta,rec.arts.books
From: cash@convex.com (Peter Cash)
Subject: Re: Eyes as Windows of the Soul
Organization: The Instrumentality
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 15:27:34 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In article <1992Jul29.022611.14276@husc3.harvard.edu> zeleny@husc9.harvard.edu (Michael Zeleny) writes:
...
>A question for all commonplace experts: what is the earliest occurrence of
>this locution known to you? has it found significant representation in the
>arts? in which languages and cultures does it occur? is there a religious
>significance to it? has it been discussed in scholarly literature?

Mikhail, I'm surprised at you! Don't you know that the real "you" is a
little guy that lives in your head and looks out of your eyes? (Actually, I
do think that a metaphysical picture like this underlies the
"commonplace".)



-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
             |      Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist.     |
Peter Cash   |       (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein)      |cash@convex.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: stueber@VAX.MPIZ-KOELN.MPG.DBP.DE
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: kanji of the day #23
Date: 28 Jul 92 16:49:00 GMT
Reply-To: NIHONGO@mitvma.mit.edu
Organization: The Internet


        1*          ****          7*****
        ****2*************        ****
        ****        ****          ****      **
        ****        ****  8*********************
        ****        ****      9*        10
        ****3***********      ****      ****
        ****                    **      **
        ****                          **    **
        ****5***********  11********************
      ****4***      ****          13**
      **  ****      ****          ****      **
      **  ****      ****  12********************
    **    ****      ****          ****
  **      ****6*********          ****
          ****      ****          ****
          ****          15****    ****
                        ****
                        ****          ****
        14**********************************
                        ****
                        ****
                        ****                ****
  16**********************************************

(Numbers indicate order and beginning of strokes)

JIS      = 3895 (serial number)
shiftJIS = 95C7 (hexcode)
NELSON   = 1148
MIYAMOTO = 16-28
KUNZE    =

 OnYomi: HEKI
Kunyomi: kabe - wall

Mnemonics:  "Wall of a prison"
             A prisoner is tatooed and enclosed begind a WALL.

Derivation:

          person above an enclosure (prisoner)
          v
                          **
      ************        **
      **        **  **************
      **        **    **      **   < tatoo (of prisoner)
      ************      **  **
      **            **************
    **************        **
    **  **      **  **************  < needle (for tatooing)
  ****  **      **        **
        **********        **
enclosure^
                **
      ************************    < "place" (someone standing on the
                **                           ground).
  ********************************

Compounds:

HEKIga  -  wall painting, fresko
ganPEKI -  pier

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the book "Yume no kabe" by Katou Yukiko: (p. 18)

Zutto mae wa, <KABE> wa motto takaku motto nagakatta ni chigainai.

-- the Great Chinese Wall?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kurt Stueber, Max-Planck-Institut fuer Zuechtungsforschung
              Carl-von-Linne-Weg 10, D-5000 Koeln 30
e-mail: stueber@vax.mpiz-koeln.mpg.dbp.de
Tel:  +49-221-5062537
Fax:  +49-221-5062513

This is Nr. 0023
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

                    **
      ********      **
      **    ****************
      ********  **      **
      **          **  **
    ************************
    ****    **      **
  **  **********************
      **    **      **
              **    **
      ******************
              **
  **************************
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: fester@island.COM (Mike Fester)
Subject: Re: (none)
Organization: /usr/local/rn/organization
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 20:13:05 GMT

In article <9207211912.AA15053@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> NIHONGO@mitvma.mit.edu writes:
>>
>> Victor--I hate to have to tell you this, and this is just my opinion,
>> but I think the Japanese are very racist. You need but look at the
>> history of the "Greater East Asian Coprosperity Sphere" to find this
>> out. In fact, you might want to read John Dower's book "War Without
>> Mercy" to get an idea of what the Japanese in the 1930s meant about the
>
>You say "the" (the implication sounds like "all") Japanese "are" (i.e.,
>present tense) racist, and back up your testimony with evidence from the
>1930s and citizenship requirements that are at least 10 years out of
>date.
>
>In fact, there are some prejudices the Japanese have.  However, Japan
>never had a KKK.  The Japanese people would never treat Korean athletes
>the way the Koreans treated the Japanese athletes in the opening
>ceremonies of the Olympic Games four years ago.  Although the Japanese
>do tend to over-generalize when it comes to ethniticity and national
>identity, these days it is more from a respect for the differences and
>sometimes a preference to uchi over soto, and it is not from any
>malevolence you see in the racism in most countries.

Uh, while the Japanese may not have had a KKK, they were not at all shy about
expressing their opinions about Koreans. After the Kanto earthquake of ~1923,
thousands of Koreans were slaughtered by ordinary Japanese citizens, when a 
rumor was spread to the effect that the Koreans were poisoning the few wells
left that provided drinking water. Also, they were not at all indifferent to
killing Chinese and Korean laborers in the period up to the surrender.

As for "respect" for the differences in culture, this respect doesn't seem to
apply to Asians.

Mike
-- 
Disclaimer - These opiini^H^H damn! ^H^H ^Q ^[ .... :w  :q  :wq  :wq! ^d  X ^?
exit X Q  ^C ^? :quitbye  CtrlAltDel   ~~q  :~q  logout  save/quit :!QUIT
^[zz ^[ZZZZZZ ^H  man vi ^@  ^L  ^[c  ^# ^E ^X ^I ^T ? help  helpquit ^D  ^d 
man help ^C ^c help exit ?Quit ?q CtrlShftDel "Hey, what does this button d..."
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: phr76as@vmsa.technion.ac.il
Subject: <None>
Organization: Technion, Israel Institute of Technology
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 09:37:19 GMT



q
From: rto051@hippo.sps.mot.com (Chang Suk-Kyung)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Re: How to apologize correctly?
Date: 30 Jul 92 07:52:46 GMT
Organization: TDO

In article <1992Jul29.163646.3058@island.COM> fester@island.COM (Mike Fester) writes:
>In article <Jul28.064759.28907@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> ntetsuya@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Nishimura) writes:

>>	Shitsurei itashimashita	
>>				any people especially to the elder or superior 
>>				when you have made a mistake or have done 
>>				something wrong

You can also say something like "shitsurei desu ga ..." when you're about
to do something "rude" like ask someone's name (particularly on the phone
when they called you and said "hi, I'm XXX from company YYY" and a minute
later you go to take down a message and can't remember their name).

>moushiwake gozaimasen.

>This is for when you've really screwed up (you were really late, you failed to 
>do something you promised, you were caught red-handed at something, etc).

"Moushiwake" is literally "excuse", so "moshiwake nai/arimasen/gozaimasen"
is "I have no excuse" or "what I have done is inexcusable."  So it's good
for those serious problems like showing up late for work, etc...
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
THIS IS A BORROWED ACCOUNT!          David Luke
   SEND ALL E-MAIL REPLIES TO:        ruser@hippo.sps.mot.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: AWILLIAMS@VAX2.LUTON.AC.UK (ANDI WILLIAMS)
Subject: Re: English->Kanji/hiragana/katakana dictionary sought
Reply-To: NIHONGO@mitvma.mit.edu
Organization: The Internet
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 11:17:00 GMT

>Hi Peter,
>
>   I've run across a Japanese English Dictionary of some form
>   on a local BBS.  Are you still interested?  Its MS-DOS based.
>
>
>   Yours truly,
>
>   Kevin Paulson

Hi Kevin,

There's probably lots of us interested.  Please tell us about it.

- Andi Williams
  AWILLIAMS@VAX2.LUTON.AC.UK
From: edhall@rand.org (Ed Hall)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Re: Surreal Email
Date: 28 Jul 92 20:22:26 GMT
Organization: The RAND Corporation

This kind of accident happens almost weekly in sci.lang.japan.

Perhaps someone will see fit to eliminate the "Reply-to:  NIHONGO" line at
the USENET gateway.  The "Reply-to:" is worse than useless on USENET,
since it effectively breaks the "reply" mechanism and is unnecessary for
followups.

Anybody listening?

		-Ed Hall
		edhall@rand.org
From: rto051@hippo.sps.mot.com (Chang Suk-Kyung)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Re: Citizenship
Date: 24 Jul 92 04:59:54 GMT
Organization: TDO

In article <1992Jul22.214110.2723@u.washington.edu> yoichi@milton.u.washington.edu (Yoichi Ii) writes:
>>I do not know of the regulations requiring a Japanese name,

>I don't know about the law either, but I think the trouble stems 
>from the fact that Korean and Chinese names are written in kanji,
>which have different reading in Japanese.  French, English, and other
>names don't have this problem.

I have heard that it is necessary to take a Japanese name.  "Kim", written
with the character for "metal" or "gold", is a common Korean family name.
I know several Japanese-of-Korean-descent people who use the same 
character with the reading "Kin", and I have another friend who's family
took the name "Kanezawa" (using the same "kin" character) for their name.

There was a special on NHK about a month ago, a drama about the first
Vietnamese refugee to become a doctor in Japan (with Saito Yuki playing
her!).  At the end she took Japanese citizenship, picking the name 
"Suzuki Reiko", which had no relation to her Vietnamese name.
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
This is a borrowed account!  Please send all e-mail replies to:
       David Luke              ruser@hippo.sps.mot.com
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Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
From: jtyrkko@vipunen.hut.fi (Juha-Petri Tyrkk|)
Subject: Re: Asuna???
Reply-To: jtyrkko@vipunen.hut.fi (Juha-Petri Tyrkk|)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 10:19:15 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.140012.19823@u.washington.edu> Yoichi Ii writes:

> BTW, has there ever been a Japanese (passenger) car sold in Japan with a
> Japanese name?  I mean, there are the Bluebirds, Camrys, Civics, etc, but I
> can't think of any with "real" Japanese name.

  At least among the motorbikes there has been the Suzuki Katana.

                                                   Juha-Petri Tyrkko

                                                   jtyrkko@vipunen.hut.fi
From: edhall@rand.org (Ed Hall)
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan
Subject: Re: racism in Japan
Date: 27 Jul 92 15:03:59 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.japan
Organization: The RAND Corporation

In article <9207241842.AA29103@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> NIHONGO@mitvma.mit.edu writes:
>  . . . . .   Thus "ethnocentrism", an expression
>  of the ilogical love of one's own ethnicity, is much more benign than
>  racism.  Racism has a mean purpose.  Ethnocentrism (at its pure and
>  naive form ) has no purpose.

I don't see how anyone who takes even a cursory look at Central Europe
could believe this.  Ethnocentrism is hardly benign when the different
ethnicities compete for limited resources (e.g. territory).

Your response might be that a "pure and naive" form of ethnocentrism is
not violent, but I would claim that this is circumstantial.  The only
way an ethnocentric society can avoid outright violence is by the quiet
violence of excluding other ethnicities, at least in the long run.

This thread really belongs in soc.culture.japan.  I've re-directed
followups there.

		-Ed Hall
		edhall@rand.org