HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kutluk@ccl.umist.ac.uk (Kutluk Ozguven)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: An article about Macedonia in TIME (october 12, 1992)
Keywords: time,macedonia,greece,bullying
Date: 10 Oct 92 16:37:40 GMT
Organization: Manchester Computing Centre

In <1992Oct9.222529.16918@walter.bellcore.com> cza@troy.uucp (C. Akgun) writes:

>In article <1992Oct09.203759.11104@annex2.cs.utex.edu> kiran@cs.utex.EDU (Mustafa Kiran) writes:
>>
>>  The following is a very interesting article about Macedonia published in
>>  TIME. ( typed without permission).
>>
>>
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>                  GREECE'S DEFENSE SEEMS JUST SILLY
>>
>>                                   by 
>>                               Strobe Talbott
>>
>>   in TIME, october 12, 1992
>>   page 64.. 
>[....]

>That is why this article has stirred up a big commotion
>in SCG to call for boycotting the TIME.  Basically, the

It is even sillier. Last year the Greeks boycotted Dutch and
Italian products, although they are receiving billions from 
such richer EC nations. If they have to boycott TIME, then
they should have done so with tens of others with similar headlines.
If this silly campaign has shown anything, that is how backward the
public opinion in Greece is. It is also a good example to that sheer
probaganda is not necessarily productive.

>guy has presented (what has really been said all along here by 
>non-Greeks) the sheer stupidity of why the name "Macedonia"
>cannot be used by anybody but Greeks.  The part that 
>I enjoyed the most is the part concering the 6000 strong mighty 
>Macedonian military which is well equipped with rifles and pistols.  If
>they acquire the Swiss knifes, this would be enough to chill many 
>more spines.  Sure, I know already.  You cannot allow such thing
>to fool any one.  Hitler has started with a boy-scout organization.

:-) should we send them the good-old-fashioned Bursa knives; maybe
not as sophiticated as the Swiss but certainly would have a more
scaring effect on the Greek public opinion.

Kutluk
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.turkish
From: tpd1@cec1.wustl.edu (Theodore P. David)
Subject: Who really suffers
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis MO
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 02:22:47 GMT


In article <Bvv2FF.IBC@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> bse@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Besime Erin) writes:
>
>A Turkish Cypriot === member of a community of 120,000 (before 1974 that is)
>who suffered under the torture of a community of ~~~550,000 
>
It takes two for a fight, Besime. We talked a lot about this. There have been
attrocities from both sides. In my oppinion it's the English who are to be
blamed (Direct application of "Divide and Conquer"). 
But here is how I see both sides:

Turkish Cypriots : The community of 18% of the population of Cyprus, who had 
30% of government, and 40% of the police force. They were
misleaded by Turkey and prefered to live under third world standards. As an 
Italian reporter put it recently:

" Passing from the Turkish sector to the Republic of Cyprus at Ledra Palace 
hotel is like flying from Jordan to Luxembourg."

Greek Cypriots : The overwhelming majority of 80% of the population of Cyprus,
who struggled for "Enosis" (Union) with Greece, but they gave them an
Independent state instead. The people who tried to build this state (along with
Turkish Cypriots), but Turkey torn it apart(1). The people who re-built the
Rebublic of Cyprus, basically from nothing. The people who made Cyprus a
country with one of the best standards of living in the world, so everybody
talks about an economic miracle in Cyprus. 

Once again Besime, I'm saying all these with good will. I know that both our
communities can live together peacefully. The target that the current president
of Cyprus put " make Cyprus the Swiss of the Meditteranean " can be reached.

Regards,
Theodore David.
****************************************************************************
* Washington University in St. Louis, School of Engineering, CS/EE         *
* E-mail : tpd1@cec1.wustl.edu,  cyprus@maria.wustl.edu                    *
* Phone #: (314) - 935 - 1221                                              *
****************************************************************************
* * * * * * * *   CYPRUS IN THE EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY  * * * * * * * * 
****************************************************************************
From: jd@slc3.lat.oz.au (John Dimogotsis)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Posting articles
Date: 15 Oct 92 03:25:10 GMT
Organization: Comp Sci, La Trobe Uni, Australia

>In article <1992Oct12.204204.5997@bradford.ac.uk> A.Bulogiorgos@bradford.ac.uk (A BULOGIORGOS) writes:
>>	I thought vi should be only but a bad
>>experience to all of those who have experienced the horror of Unix.
>>   Why should I have to type 'i' to start typing text? Isn't it obvious
>>when someone is opening an editor wants to type something? 

	Ola einai mia sinitheia. Egw xrisimopoiw "vi" edw kai xronia xwris
problima. Otan matheis ta pliktra oute pou skeftesai na patisei 'i' i '^D'
i otidipote. 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Subject: Re: MIRacles No. 13
Organization: Enea Data AB
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 23:27:54 GMT

Panos Tamamidis  (ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu) writes:
> I heard such things before.  The area of the so called "Republic
> of Macedonia" was given the name Macedonia after WWII.  This is
> a creation of Communist Tito.  Before WWII this area was called
> south Serbia, or banovina (=province) of Vardar.  Tito invented this
> term on April 30, 1945.  His purpose was to create a Great Macedonia,
> which would include northern Greece (part of which is Macedonia), and
> the Pirin area of Bulgaria.

Are you brain-washed? One has to seriously ask this question, when
it is is a very well-known fact that the term "Macedonia" for a
long time before Tito had been used to denote an area which includes
in entirety the Republic of Macedonia. (But curiously, according to
the pre-WWII sources I've checked, not the entire of the present-day
Greek province of Macedonia.)

Exactly when this usage started is unknown to me, but we are talking
the 19th century at least. Vardarska Banovica was only in use in the
inter-war period.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
There are many sorts of Macedonians: Greek, Bulgarian, Roumanian, Macedonian...

Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:9676 soc.culture.turkish:10606
From: pef@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Panayotis Fouliras; TA PhD)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: An article about Macedonia in TIME (october 12, 1992)
Keywords: time,macedonia,greece,bullying
Date: 13 Oct 92 09:32:19 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London

In <Bvxs7K.3Kx@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ) writes:

[..]
> can exceed the imagination of the most ill-thinking Turk.  As far
> as I know, the supposed boycot of Dutch and Italian products
> spread to such an amazing number of stores, that the economy of
> Holland and Italy was about to collapse...

Dystyxws oxi agapite Pano. Px oi eksagwges tis Ollandias pros
Ellada einai ~1% twn synolikwn eksagwgwn tous. Einai to
proigoumeno (polites mias xwras EOK na mpoikotaroun proionta
mias allis), kathws kai i epityxia tou metrou pou tous
etsoukse. An eixe ginei me prwtoboulia tis kybernisis, tha
mas pigainan sto Eurwpaiko dikastirio. Gia auto kai den egine
tipote. Epeidi i kybernisi zitise na stamatisei oli auti i
prospatheia kai o kosmos ligo-poly stamatise, pou den proxwrise
auti i douleia - pragma eksairetika kalo: Kai deiksame
apofasismenoi (san synolo), alla kai den to parakaname gia na
exoun patima na mas kynigisoun.

Apo tin alli einai gnwsti px i ypothesi tou mpoykotaz tou
tsimentou tis AGET Hraklis, stin Agglia, apo to kartel tou
tsimentou. Oxi gia ethnikous/politikous, alla oikonomikous
logous.

> Panos Tamamidis

Mi sygxizesai me osa lene merikoi. Den aksizei ton kopo
nomizw...

Filika

Panayotis

--
UUCP:      pef@qmw-dcs.uucp  | Computer Science Dept    | "H Rwmania
Internet:  pef@dcs.qmw.ac.uk | QMW University of London |  kai an
JANET:     pef@uk.ac.qmw.dcs | Mile End Road            |  eperasen,
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Cellphone: Too expensive to fit                            allon"
From: c23st@kocrsv01.DElcoelect.COM (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: re: greeks can't swim
Date: 13 Oct 92 20:06:21 GMT
Article-I.D.: kocrsw06.9210132006.AA03316
Organization: The Ohio State University Department of Computer and Information Science

Hakan writes:
> I guess it takes a long time to learn swimming for Greeks.
> The extra 4 months period is the swimming training.

There's actually some logic behind this. 

I remember many people drafted into the navy from my father's village.
(miles from sea, on a mountain). They did not know why they were in
either.  The draft board (or whatever) does not stop and think where a
conscript will go based on skills, geographic area, etc. I have seen
friends of mine with Ph.D in comp sci inducted as 'fantaroi', i.e. grunts.

It would make sense that people from the island regions be the ones
to be induced to navy duty etc. That would require 'military
intelligence' which by itself is an oxymoron. Other reasons would be
that navy duty has more perks (i.e. international trips) thus is
more desirable... Or that navy is much EASIER compared to land duty.
(i.e. nice air conditioned ship compared to army barraks).

As far as swimming goes, it is a well known fact that Greeks can't
swim very well. Why? just like many nations that are car producers yet
their driving leaves a lot to be desired (USA, Italy :-)). While
Greeks LOVE sea their relationship with it stops at the local 
taverna on the seaside, eating fried fish (marides) and drinking
retsina. 

The Greek Magazine Tachydromos had a really funny article
about the 'duck syndrome', the pathological desire of Greeks to 
associate with the sea (but not learn how to swim), years back. 
They started with the shoutings of the Myriads (Alexander the Great's
army) when they saw the sea ("Thallata - Thallata") (the sea! The
sea!) and continues to today with the modern Greek's obligatory drive
to a crowded beach (3 hours to get to the beach, 1 hour stay, 3 hours
back) during summer. Is it any wonder we can't swim?

> The service 
> duration for the Air Force is a bit shorter because all Greeks 
> have a common inherent flying capability (especially about Greece)
> Any objection?. 

I'd disagree here. We fly pretty well :-). Just don't count Olympic in.
(how many airlines do you know where passengers had to PUSH the plane
on the runway (true story) or where the crew had to pass a collection
plate to buy gas for the plane (also true story))

> Finally, all Greeks know how to walk so there
> is no need for extra duration.

Not always. I learned how to walk at age 2 1/2. Before then, I figured
out that a stroller ride beats walking. ( I *did* talk at 6 months)

Spiros (Fly Delta or Bust)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: nkoudour@lonestar.utsa.edu (Nathan D. Koudouris)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: re: Information on Greece
Date: 8 Oct 92 16:07:15 GMT
Organization: University of Texas at San Antonio

Hi again.

Someone from the University of Illinois asked me to be a little more specific
on my request for information on Greece.  My father is from Greece.  However,
we have lost contact with our family there.  I have been trying to send
letters to them in Athens, but there has been no response in three months.
We haven't been in writing contact with them for some time now.

Also, being that I live in San Antonio, I never hear of what's going on
because the papers here only write about what is going on in Bosnia and
what goes on in Mexico.

I want to know what is the political status of the country?.  What are all the
problems I'm hearing about  that Greece is having with Macedonia and Turkey?

The only information I receive is what Usenet posts.

So..  Would someone explain **objectively**

What the problems are (i.e. Turkey and Macedonia)

Why these problems are occurring

I would greatly appreciate it.

                                                Thank you,

                                                Demosthenes Koudouris
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: ccc@cs.toronto.edu ("Christina C. Christara")
Subject: Re: Mythology questions 
Followup-To: soc.culture.greek
Keywords: Ogyas, Ogygia, Ogyges, Ortygia
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Toronto
Date: 16 Oct 92 01:25:59 GMT

In article <Bw6JG2.Jv9@unix.amherst.edu> nwbernst@unix.amherst.edu (Neil Bernstein) writes:
>Kambiz Iranpour Mobarekeh (kambizm@fidibus.uio.no) wrote:
>: 
>: I am looking for the names of some mythological personalities
[text deleted]
>
>: Third question
>: is was it Ogyas (or Ogias) barns which were cleaned by Hercul?
>
>	Herakles (Latinized to Hercules) cleaned the stables of King Augeas. 
That's what I thought Kambiz meant too.

>You may be thinking of the island of Ogygia, where Odysseus was restrained
>by the nymph Kalypso after his Great Wanderings and before he returns to
>Ithaka.
In a quick search, I was only able to find the name Ogyges (Ogugns)
as a person saved after a cataclysm.
I also found the toponym Ortygia (Ortugia), having the meaning
of an island (or other place) with "ortykia" (ortuki = quail).

>
>Neil Bernstein
>struggling Classics major

C. Christara
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Subject: Re: An article about Macedonia in TIME (october 12, 1992)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 02:57:18 GMT
Keywords: time,macedonia,greece,bullying

kutluk@ccl.umist.ac.uk (Kutluk Ozguven) writes:

>It is even sillier. Last year the Greeks boycotted Dutch and
>Italian products, although they are receiving billions from 
>such richer EC nations.

 You know something Kutluk.  Some times the stupidity of some people
 can exceed the imagination of the most ill-thinking Turk.  As far
 as I know, the supposed boycot of Dutch and Italian products
 spread to such an amazing number of stores, that the economy of
 Holland and Italy was about to collapse...

 But, on the other hand, if I remind you, and the other clever birds,
 that only two super-markets were doing this great boycotting, perhaps
 you will start looking even more ridiculous.

 Thus, the silly ones are those who are trying to prove that all the Greeks
 were boycotting Dutch and Italian products.  Now, if I start writting
 how many times groups from one EC country have boycotted products of 
 another EC country, your smile may stay for ever on your face.

>:-) should we send them the good-old-fashioned Bursa knives; maybe
>not as sophiticated as the Swiss but certainly would have a more
>scaring effect on the Greek public opinion.

 It can not have more scaring effect than the effect the few "Greek rebels"
 had on Turks in 1821.  

>Kutluk

 Panos Tamamidis
From: varnavas@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (varnavas constantine)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Akritas Plan (Re: Greek Logic)
Keywords: Palikaria, Akritas Plan, Enosis
Date: 16 Oct 92 04:29:15 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.Bw75ss.Mpn
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

baysan@en.ecn.purdue.edu (Okan Baysan) writes:

>In article <Bw6E2M.9r5@news.cso.uiuc.edu> varnavas@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (varnavas constantine), responding to Sadi Turgut, writes:
>>
>>What is this "Akritas plan"?  You mentioned it in previous posts.  I have
>>never heard of it.  Can you post any details?

>Here it is. Read it and pound it in. 

O.K. now I have the "Akritas plan".  Who authored it, when, to whom did
addressed, and what is the source?  I would be indebted if you could provide
me with this information (without the flames please).
-- 
Constantinos Varnavas
University of Illinois
Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:9701 soc.culture.yugoslavia:9129 soc.culture.bulgaria:1517
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 03:29:00 EDT
From: <PXP111@psuvm.psu.edu>  Andronikos Romanos
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.bulgaria
Subject: I would not call you a LIAR but FORGETFUL (was: A LIAR)

(lb@cs.man.ac.uk) writes in Message-ID:<6417@m1.cs. man.ac.uk>:
>
> In article <92283.031115PXP111@psuvm.psu.edu> PXP111@psuvm.psu.
> edu writes:
>
>> The only person ever drawing a scenario about his country in-
>> vading the ex-Yugoslav republic was, I think, L.Boyanov...
>>
> YOU ARE A LIAR.  I've not only never draw such scenario but al-
> ways said that nobody MUST and SHOULD invade Macedonia.DO APPO-
> LOGIZE for this words, and I'll get my words back.

I hope  this  captures the essence of L.B.'s text so that he will
not start complaining that I clip his postings!! (unless more de-
tails on my supposed "intrigue" or his new  "transliteration"  of
my name are absolutely necessary...)

"...if some Serbians start claiming that Macedonia is nothing mo-
re than Serbia  and Bulgarians start claiming that that's nothing
more but Bulgaria..."
                               Luben Boyanov
                  Message-ID: <6343@m1.cs.man.ac.uk>
                  References: <92277.172939PXP111@psuvm.psu.edu>

If I may remind the netters,  the discussion was about  INVASIONS
and DIVISIONS of a particular republic (and I had just clarified/
synopsized the Greek non-involvement).
Now,  to the best of my knowledge  Mr.Boyanov  does not represent
the  "some Serbs"  but may be very well classified  in the second
ethnicity mentioned in his very excerpt.
As for the hypothetical tone of his sentence,  this can obviously
be perceived as a scenario.  SCENARIO=" An outline or synopsis; a
sequence of events especially when imagined." He clearly outlined
something, and we all know he imagined a case.
I suggest that the words "drawing" and "think", from my phrase in
question, be interpreted in Mr.Boyanov's logic as well.   (As ex-
pressed in Message 6416@m1.cs.man.ac.uk  when he safeguarded him-
self over something he did not remember very well...)
Anyway,  Mr.Boyanov himself  mentioned his own country in a hypo-
thetical involvment in the particular neighboring land,   whereas
this was not the case with Mr.Pavlovic's text and Serbia...
If I may add, it is this sense in which Mr.Boyanov came closer to
what Mr.Tzonev observed initially (about claims on the particular
republic and started our conversation),  than Mr.Pavlovic.

                                               Andronikos Romanos

PS: In spite of the above that are consistent, I feel that I must
also clarify something -as I did with Mr.Pavlovic's case.  Irres-
pective of the above  and the recent duel  I have with Mr.Boyanov
on several matters,  to the best to my knowledge  this netter has
never proposed actual military involvement of Sophia against Sco-
pje.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: c23st@kocrsv01.DElcoelect.COM (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
Subject: re: one in ten conscripts can swim
Organization: The Ohio State University Department of Computer and Information Science
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 17:25:20 GMT

what's'his'name writes:
Sea novices: Although famed as a maritime nation and despite being
surrounded by seas, a report has disclosed that only one in ten
conscripts called up to join the Greek navy can swim.

I wonder if the statistic counts people who avoided the draft,
paid off their duty, etc.

Actually I had a rather interesting question. Back when I was in
Greece, Navy had the longest service, then Air Force, then Army.
Navy was almost 2 1/2 years then, air force 2 months less, army
2 months less than air force and so on.

Since I have not served, I always wondered why this is so. The theory
went that navy was a paradise (they did'nt even have to swim :-))
that everyone wanted to join (also due to overseas travel etc), thus
pushing longer service time to discourage them. 

So, any ex-navy folks, any response to the above? Why was navy duty
consistently longer than army or air force?

Thanks

Spiros
Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:9731 soc.culture.turkish:10650
From: pef@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Panayotis Fouliras; TA PhD)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: An article about Macedonia in TIME (october 12, 1992)
Keywords: time,macedonia,greece,bullying
Date: 15 Oct 92 13:28:18 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London

In <Bw36px.DC4@news.cso.uiuc.edu> pt8684@meibm5.cen.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis) writes:

>>Dystyxws oxi agapite Pano. Px oi eksagwges tis Ollandias pros
>>Ellada einai ~1% twn synolikwn eksagwgwn tous. Einai to
>>proigoumeno (polites mias xwras EOK na mpoikotaroun proionta
>>mias allis), kathws kai i epityxia tou metrou pou tous
>>etsoukse. An eixe ginei me prwtoboulia tis kybernisis, tha
>>mas pigainan sto Eurwpaiko dikastirio. Gia auto kai den egine
>>tipote. Epeidi i kybernisi zitise na stamatisei oli auti i
>         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>prospatheia kai o kosmos ligo-poly stamatise, pou den proxwrise
>                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>auti i douleia - pragma eksairetika kalo: Kai deiksame
>>apofasismenoi (san synolo), alla kai den to parakaname gia na
>>exoun patima na mas kynigisoun.

>  Afto to anekdoto den to akousa prin.  Ksereis pou egrapse o kosmos
>  thn kybernish otan tou zhtouse na mhn kanei thn diadilwsh sthn
>  0essaloniki, e?

Den kserw ean i kybernisi zitise na mi ginei to sylallitirio
stin Thessaloniki. Ean einai alitheia, kala ekane o kosmos kai
den akouse tin kybernisi (oi dikoi mou itan ekei, alla den mou
eipan oti zitise i kybernisi kati tetoio). Apo tin alli, oloi
mas kseroume oti einai polloi Ellines pou exoun zitisei na
stamatisei olo to emporio me ta Skopia kai na kleisoun ta
synrora, gia na tous "pniksoume" oikonomika. An kai fainetai
logiko kat' arxin, to problima einai oti den kseroume ti
ginetai sta paraskinia (legetai oti ta pragmata olo kai
sfigkoun gia tous mpagasides ston bora).

Telos pantwn, opswmetha...

Kali douleia kai opws sou eipa: Den aksizei ton kopo na
sygxizesai me ta osa legontai edw pera. H koini gnwmi mporei na
paizei rolo, alla synithws oi kyberniseis kanoun auto pou
ekeines nomizoun swsto, otan prokeitai gia sygkekrimmeno
symferon. Gi' auto fantazomai den exoun anagnwristei apo
EOKikes xwres/HPA kai logw psifwn apo Australia, klp.

Filika

Panayotis
--
UUCP:      pef@qmw-dcs.uucp  | Computer Science Dept    | "H Rwmania
Internet:  pef@dcs.qmw.ac.uk | QMW University of London |  kai an
JANET:     pef@uk.ac.qmw.dcs | Mile End Road            |  eperasen,
Voice:     +44 71 975 5220   | London E1 4NS            |  anthei kai
FAX:       +44 81 980 6533   |                          |  ferei kai
Cellphone: Too expensive to fit                            allon"
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.turkish
From: cza@troy.uucp (C. Akgun)
Subject: Re: An article about Macedonia in TIME (october 12, 1992)
Keywords: time,macedonia,greece,bullying
Organization: BCR, NJ-USA
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 92 22:25:29 GMT

In article <1992Oct09.203759.11104@annex2.cs.utex.edu> kiran@cs.utex.EDU (Mustafa Kiran) writes:
>
>  The following is a very interesting article about Macedonia published in
>  TIME. ( typed without permission).
>
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>                  GREECE'S DEFENSE SEEMS JUST SILLY
>
>                                   by 
>                               Strobe Talbott
>
>   in TIME, october 12, 1992
>   page 64.. 
[....]

That is why this article has stirred up a big commotion
in SCG to call for boycotting the TIME.  Basically, the
guy has presented (what has really been said all along here by 
non-Greeks) the sheer stupidity of why the name "Macedonia"
cannot be used by anybody but Greeks.  The part that 
I enjoyed the most is the part concering the 6000 strong mighty 
Macedonian military which is well equipped with rifles and pistols.  If
they acquire the Swiss knifes, this would be enough to chill many 
more spines.  Sure, I know already.  You cannot allow such thing
to fool any one.  Hitler has started with a boy-scout organization.

C. Akgun