From: dcb@rosedale.uucp (Dave Breneman)
Newsgroups: pnw.general
Subject: Re: progeny limits (was "...toxicity of wood smoke")
Keywords: population explosion
Date: 12 Apr 92 21:27:25 GMT
Article-I.D.: rosedale.1992Apr12.212725.2924
Organization: The Spud Goodman Show

In article <1992Apr11.215501.25128@eskimo.celestial.com> kurt@eskimo.celestial.com (Kurt Cockrm 762-6417) writes:
>In article <1992Apr9.201129.2372@kopachuk.uucp> dcb@kopachuk.uucp (David Breneman) writes:
>>In article <1992Apr5.013006.4552@eskimo.celestial.com> kurt@eskimo.celestial.com (Kurt Cockrm 762-6417) writes:
>>>
>>>Overpopulation is intimately tied in to capitalist pro-growth philosophies
>>
>>Beg pardon?
>
>Overpopulation:  Maybe I should have said "Lots of people".  Capitalists may
>disagree that "Lots of people" is the same as overpopulation, after all, it's
>probably optimal as far as they are concerned.  There are 2 main kinds of
>capitalists: corporate, and state.  Other kinds of capitalists exist, such as
>anarcho-capitalists, but they aren't germane here.

You state these things as self-evident facts, but I've never heard any
of this stuff before.  I've alawys considered myself a *radical*
capitalist.  Maybe I'm something else and don't know it. :-)

>Pro-growth: Capitalism includes as part of it's belief system the idea that
>to remain viable, a society/economy/whatever has to keep on growing, consuming
>whatever resources are necessary for its sustenance.  It is this belief that is
>at the root of pro-growth philosophies.

Again, what is your source?  Adam Smith? John Locke? Karl Marx? You?
When an economy grows, it means that more wealth is being created.
One of the ways to do this is to *decrease* the population.  This
way the need for automation increses, people move from labor to
management jobs and become more prosperous, and they buy more,
cycling money through the economy and creating wealth.  (Don't
forget, a dollar doesn't cease to exist once it's spent.)

>People are part of the resources processed by the dominant economic system
>on this planet, capitalism.  

I'm sorry, friend, but this is just plain unmitigated bullshit.
Capitalism is an *empowering* form of society.  Unlike materialistic
(ie socialist) economies, each person is a vital individual in a
capitalist system, able to do his/her own will and responsible for
the results of their decisions.  It's really almost spiritual, because
people are *not* a collective of physical objects, and their value is
what they make it.  This is not to say that everyone who works hard
becomes a millionaire.  A big influence on that outcome is being in the
right place at the right time (what Mortimer Adler refers to as the
difference between living a good life and having a good life).
But, its the only economic order (or disorder - actually better!)
in which everyone has the *possibility* of becoming a millionaire.

>                            A high population is good for capitalism, so it
>is and has been believed.
>
Believed by you, certainly.  I fear you are taking everything you find
unfair and mean in the world and lumping it under the label of
"capitalism".  Capitalism is freedom.  Just like freedom of speech,
freedom of/from religion, freedom of the press, etc., freedom to engage
in private business transactions is a natural right. The results of 
these free interactions between people will not always be pleasing to
everyone.  That's the price you pay for living in a free society.
BTW, I agree with you that the overarching social and political concern
of this decade should be overpopulation.  It's the premises on which you
draw your conclusions that I find fault with.

-- 
David Breneman            #################          I'm an American, dammit.
The Spud Goodman Show      ####### #######           What gives Russians the
dcb@rosedale.uucp           #####   #####            the right to have less
 ..uunet!camco!rosedale!dcb      (_)  - - - Ciao.    government than me?