From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Subject: Re: Lehi and nazies
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
Organization: Australian National University
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 02:52:15 GMT

In article 23938@ennews.eas.asu.edu, makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:
>In article <bdm.715766379@cs.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:
># makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:
># >In article <1992Sep3.084932.5496@cs.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:
># ># In article 26043@ennews.eas.asu.edu, makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:
>
># ># >In article <1992Sep2.045114.10284@cs.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:
> 
># ># ># Lehi had no love of the Germans.  They believed that the Nazis would
># ># ># win the war and that the Nazi flavour of anti-semitism was going to
># ># ># be the trend for a long time.  More interestingly, they believed
># ># ># that anti-semitism could not be fought because it was JUSTIFIED; 
># ># ># it was reasonable for non-Jews to hate Jews because after all the
># ># ># Jews were the Chosen People and therefore superior.
> 
># ># >	I have a lot of problems with this, and Brendan I believe you owe
># ># >lots of peaople an apology for that insulting remark.  I consider the
># ># >Jews (me included) to be the chosen people.  I do NOT consider myself
># ># >(or any other Jew) superior.  Even if I did, that might make
># ># >anti-semitism a predictable response (not that it would make it, just
># ># >that it might), but not a JUSTIFIED response.
> 
># ># >	Just to let you know, it was this one paragraph that caused me to
># ># >respond.  The use of 'JUSTIFIED' is disgusting to say the least.
> 
># ># I expected that you wouldn't like it.  However, you are asking me to
># ># apologise for the beliefs of Stern, which is rather bizarre.  What
># ># I wrote is properly parsed "they [Lehi] believed ... it was justified".
># ># I never said that I believe it was justified, nor do I believe that.
> 
># ># What I have read about the beliefs of Stern and his buddies are that
># ># they belonged to the (hopefully small) subset of Jewish thinkers which
># ># regarded the doctrine of Chosenness as a doctrine of superiority.
># ># I think it fits their policies and behaviour quite well, but I don't
># ># have access to the original source materials that could confirm it.
># ># My most recent reading on the subject was the two books by Lenni
># ># Brenner, Zionism in the Age of the Dictators and The Iron Wall, but
># ># I've read less pointed texts also.
> 
># >	Quite frankly, if this is in fact not what they believed, I
># >consider this reply of yours to also be disgusting.  And considering
># >that you post this without the materials handy, I find also
># >disgusting.
> 
># David, You are certainly in a highly disgustable state today.
>
>	The only thing that is disgusting is you.  With each of the
>replies in this thread you have gone a long way with portraying
>yourself as you continue to spread these disgusting ideas.
>
># I have The Iron Wall with me.
>
>	So what?  Why don't you use something authored by one of the
>individuals in question, where they confirm what they said AND WHY?

Do you think I wouldn't if I could?

># >	Now, even if your materials do confirm this, it is possible that
># >there are inadvertant mistranslations, or considering the way some
># >felt (and still do feel) about LEHI, a planned mistranslation.
> 
># Both are possible.  An unavoidable hazard in amateur historical
># research is that one is at the mercy of professionals who misrepresent 
># obscure source material.  I try to minimise the effect by reading 
># multiple opinions, but that is an imperfect solution.
>
>	A better solution would be not to engage in such acts in the first
>place.  At the very least, but this is not enough, you could have
>disclaimers all over the place.

I apologise to any readers who thought that my post implied that I had
personally spoken to former Lehi members or read the original manuscripts
of their writings.

># >	Also, this response of yours does not even go into how
># >anti-semitism is justified even if the "superiority" business is
># >correct.
> 
># Well, after flaming me for reporting the words of someone else,
># now you want me to analyse them for you.  Ok.  I guess the idea
># is that people tend to hate people superior to themselves.
># Maybe it's true in some statistical sense, I don't know.
># I remember once reading an opinion that this idea helps explain
># some of the ill-treatment Christians have meted out to Jews 
># over the ages (since the doctrine that the Jews are specifically 
># Chosen is a strong theme in Christian thinking also).  I don't
># really have an opinion on whether these assessments are correct,
># and I don't have enough time to make one.
>
>	You are being ridiculous and disgusting here.  Even if what you
>say above is true, at the most, anti-semitism can be predicatable, but
>in no way is it JUSTIFIED!

Since I strongly believe that anti-semitism is NOT JUSTIFIED EVER, your
pathetic attempts to paint me with any other view are much more
disgusting than anything I have done.

It appears that you are incapable of elementary logic, such as 
distinguishing between "A believes X" and "A says that B believes X".
I don't know how I can help you.

># >	It would seem as though you have been duped by David Palmer.  I
>
># Who?
>
>	Right.  He is pretty popular among people with your views in
>Australia.  In fact, he probably planted them in you.

I honestly don't know who he is.  Maybe one of the National Front 
crazies who were in the news a decade ago?

># >suggest you reconsider and apologize.
>
># No way.  If you don't like the opinions I quote, quote some yourself.
>
>	My quoting here is not the issue.  Your behavior is.  I apologize
>when I am wrong.  It seems you are incapable.

When you show me to be wrong, I will apologise.  Meanwhile, your childish
tirade will have no effect on my postings.

>David Makowsky

Brendan.




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