HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dauber@tattoo.mti.sgi.com (Jeff Dauber)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: penis size (was Re: Muffin on Parade)
Date: 31 Dec 92 21:15:06 GMT
Reply-To: dauber@tattoo.mti.sgi.com (Jeff Dauber)
Organization: sgi
NNTP-Posting-Host: tattoo.mti.sgi.com

In article <C0530L.L7J@agora.rain.com>, bcapps@agora.rain.com (Brent Capps) writes:

|> You still don't get it, do you?  Your response is a prime example
|> of why we don't want to talk about it.  We know that if we try to discuss 
|> our feelings somebody's going to respond with a flip remark or 
|> laugh at us for being self-conscious or accuse us of bragging.  
|> I can understand what women with very large breasts must have to 
|> endure.  They can never shake the feeling that men are only interested 
|> in them as an object of sexual gratification.  I can also understand 
|> how men with smaller penises may feel -- like they're going to be 
|> evaluated on the basis of their penis size rather than on their worth 
|> as a human being.  Well, I feel the same way!


Stop it then.  Look, everyone has the equipment they have.  The problem, however,
is not that your dick is big or small.  It seems to be associated with 
your caring what other people think.  Fuck em.  If they are only interested
in you because you have a big dick, don't deal with them.  If you take pride
in your body, regardless of the shape and size, their bullshit does not mean
anything.
 

|> No, and now I feel more self-conscious than ever.  I feel like if
|> I'm ever at a motss-con in a clothing-optional situation that
|> everybody's going to be staring at me, checking it out.  That 
|> makes me feel like a freak!  No thank you.

Again, why do you care?  Is there anything you can do about the size of your
penis?  No?  Then why expend energy worrying about it?


FWA
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: jarvis@psych.toronto.edu (Brian Jarvis)
Subject: Re: Congratulating (het) parents on their new baby
Organization: Dept. of Psychology, University of Toronto
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 17:42:46 GMT

In article <Bzo2DH.DFx@cs.columbia.edu> ji@cs.columbia.edu (John Ioannidis) writes:
>Every once in a while I'll read on the local bboards in the places I
>have accounts at, that Mr&Mrs so-and-so had a brand new baby, vital
>statistics of the baby follow, and the message ends with how the
>father is proud and the mother is resting at the hospital. The message
>is invariably congratulatory.

>1. Is it a het thing, and I just don't understand?

It's not just a het thing.  At least two lesbian couples I know have
sent me cards announcing the arrival of their daughters.  I've seen at
least one Birth notice in the Toronto Star (major Toronto daily) which
listed two women as the parents.

>2. Is there something intrinsic to be proud of on the part of the
>father? The only thing he has proven so far is that he has a working
>reproductive system.

I can understand his pride.  In purest logic, yes, all he's proven
is the viability of his reproductive system.  Beyond this however,
can be a very profound emotional effect, holding in one's hands a new life,
a new being with such potential and capacity for love and intelligence,
formed, presumably, by the actions of two people who love each other.

While I've never been a father in the genetic sense, I've diapered, bathed
& bottle-fed (among other duties) four children and did a damn good job
too.  I feel I can lay claim to a large portion of word "parenthood".  It's
certainly an experience which changed my outlook in life.

>3. WRT #2 above, is the father being congratulated on his bedroom
>prowess, and the mother on being fertile? (Of course, it could be
>congratulating the father for putting up with his wife, and the mother
>for actually going through the trouble of having a baby, but I somehow
>doubt that this is the case).

See above.

>4. Why do we never see such messages by same-sex couples? Or single
>parents? Or adoptive parents? 

And above.  I have seen such notices & cards by same-sex couples and
adoptive parents.  Typically, the single parents I know are too damned
busy being parents to get the cards and notices sent, but that's what
grandparents are for.

>5. Am I the only one with the (suppresed) urge to post followups along
>the lines of "who cares?" or "only 10 pounds? You can hardly make a
>pot roast out of that!"

You're not unique in this; with 5 billion people on the planet, there's
certainly a diversity of opinion.  B{)

>6. Should I really be working on finishing my thesis and not bothering
>soc.motss with my morning (very late night, actually) bitchiness?

If it wasn't for late night bitchiness, most soc.motss discussions would
never be started.  Don't sweat it.  B{)

Now go work on your thesis!  Good luck!

Brian
-- 

Brian A. Jarvis,          Rm. 4026, Sidney Smith Hall, Dept. of Psychology,
jarvis@psych.toronto.edu  University of Toronto, Toronto, Ontario, Canada
System Administrator      M5S 1A1  (416) 978-3948
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Subject: Re: the story ends with a cliff hanger?
Keywords: kidnapping, beards, bikes
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 92 23:25:24 GMT

In article <1992Dec30.215618.25757@spdcc.com> dyer@spdcc.com
(Steve Dyer) writes:

>In article <1992Dec30.201347.5098@psych.toronto.edu>
jarvis@psych.toronto.edu (Brian Jarvis) writes:

>>I'll buy one, then.  Raising the ante,

>This isn't fair!  You live down the street from Ken!

Why, of course it's fair.  All's fair in love, war, and
motorcycles.  I plan to be *ever* so ingratiating, in
hopes of having a ride.

-- 
[Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin]
[Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson]
[Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888]
[---------> Discrimination, Bigotry, and Hate are not Family Values <---------]
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: mwinches@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Mark D Winchester)
Subject: The Dumping Ground...
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 02:45:45 GMT


Add me to the list, boys.  I've been dumped....

And he still wants me to live with him!  Uck.

--Mark
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: joe@spdcc.com (Joseph Francis)
Subject: Re: Devil CD's
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 13:26:27 GMT

In article <75792@apple.apple.COM> richard@Apple.COM (a flying squirrel) writes:
>Furr:
>
>>[I would love to find a danceclub DJ with the balls to mix
>>from Molly Hatchet to Madonna to ZZ to Animotion to RTZ, or
>>the like.... Chances of finding such a person/place? 0%.]
>
>Bzzzzzzt.  Shoulda visited Club Uranus more often (when it still
>existed).  I danced to "Back in Black" and "Whole Lotta Love" there,
>as well as "Fame".
>

Richard, Richard. It isn't nice to tempt people with typical French
elevator music. Not long away, so quickly you forget! Sitting on the
Boulevard des Capuchines eating your steake frites, listening to
"Theme from Midnight Expres" segue into "Iron Man", followed by
Krautwerk "Trans Europe Express" to Nena "99 Luftbaloons" and finally
Alice Cooper and "School's Out". Donna Summer back=to-back with the
Ramones. Jim Morrison/Def Leppard. Bread/Edith Piaf/Joni Mitchell/Led
Zeppelin/Don MacLean. Nightmarish, the only thing worse than Italian
Pop Radio.

-- 
US Jojo; damp, slighly soiled, but tasty nonetheless.
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: ra@asuvax.eas.asu.edu (Starcap'n Ra)
Subject: Re: Dworkin (was Re: Liberty)
Organization: motss
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 01:36:04 GMT

anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:
> I see it as quite analogous to the righteous bleats of
> reverse discrimination among whites when considering even
> small increases in opportunity for people of color.

     Nonsense.  Men bleating about reverse
discrimination when considering even small
increases in opportunity for women is analogous
to your color comparison.  Men dismissing 
Dworkin's hateful rantings is not.

     I'm sorry, but Dworkin is an idiot.  The
world may well end up being better off as
a result of her having existed, and she's
interesting as an example of just how much
the status quo can detrimentally warp someone
beyond any human recognition, but that's another
issue and beside the point: she's still an idiot
(unless she doesn't really believe in what she
spouts and is doing it for a calculated effect,
which I highly doubt).

     And not speaking to you Jess, but at large
to the general discussion: please, can we be spared
the "well, her starting point is valid, she just
comes to the wrong conclusions" jibberish?  I mean,
so what, just what in hell is *that* supposed to
prove, besides absolutely nothing?

--Starcap'n Ra       {ames,gatech,husc6,rutgers}!ncar!noao!asuvax!kennedy
                        {allegra,decvax,ihnp4,oddjob}--^
                                          ^---------------The Wrong Choice
                             internet: kennedy@asuvax.asu.edu
From: key@soda.berkeley.edu (peter li'ir key)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: How did you find soc.motss?
Date: 21 Dec 1992 15:55:19 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley, CS Undergraduate Association
NNTP-Posting-Host: soda.berkeley.edu

i remember being bored one day and looking through the list of
newsgroups.  i subscribed to all the groups that i was curious
or interested about, not to squeamish about, or just did not understand.
so i joined things like rec.games.go, rec.art.poems, 
soc.religion.christian, and other relatively 'tame' groups; the
previous groups falling under curious or not to squeamish.  i subscribed 
to soc.motss 'cuz i couldn't fathom what it could be about.
had i known at the time soc.motss would have fallen under 'too
squeamish', and i wouldn't have subscribed.

now at the time i was trying to be a devout 'fundie' (but i got
over that after a little time).  so after reading the first few
articles i unsubscribed in shock and disgust.  at this time i wasn't
even out to myself.  over the course of a few months i subscribed
and unsubscribed.  at first i was afraid someone would see me
reading soc.motss, and then i came up with an 'excuse'; "i didn't
know what motss meant."  (i look back at that time and the utter
self-loathing makes me angry.)

after some soul searching and a little help from a friend, i finally
came out to myself.  reading soc.motss had given me the needed insight, 
despite all the 'fundie' crap i grew up with, that being homosexual
was not 'sinful' or 'evil'.  thanks folks.  *hug*

that's how i first found soc.motss.  though to be honest i never
followed more than four articles before unsubscribing again
until i came out.  so i didn't find out the really neat things
about soc.motss (the non existent 'cabal', big red pumps, etc ;)
until i started reading regularly.

peter li'ir key
key@soda.berkeley.edu
From: dauber@tattoo.mti.sgi.com (Jeff Dauber)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Why not cure homosexuality?
Date: 31 Dec 92 17:08:25 GMT
Reply-To: dauber@tattoo.mti.sgi.com (Jeff Dauber)
Organization: sgi
NNTP-Posting-Host: tattoo.mti.sgi.com

In article <1992Dec31.142138.16238@panix.com>, mara@panix.com (Mara Chibnik) writes:
|> 
|> 
|> <MEH124@psuvm.psu.edu> wrote: 
|>   >->Regarding a previous post that got a good deal of response about
|>   >->the thought of curing homosexuality, most people on the net seem
|>   >->strongly opposed to whole idea of a cure.
|> henry@ADS.COM (Henry Mensch) writes:
|>  >why *should* there be a cure?
|> 
|> What, exactly, is to be cured? 

To process by smoking or salting.  You see, rich heterosexuals have found
that taking one tablespoon of cured homosexual each morning improves their
aesthetic sense, allowing them to spend their money in a tasteful manner.


FWA
From: d000dlphi@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu (David Speakman)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Private antidiscrimination policies in CO (was Re: Attention...)
Date: 2 Jan 93 06:24:59 GMT
Organization: Ball State University, Muncie, In - Univ. Computing Svc's

In article <1i02j7INNfoi@hp-col.col.hp.com>, smithw@col.hp.com (Walter Smith) writes:
> anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:
>> they can get away with it, is firing an employee who's
>> performing satisfactorily or better because of a
>> supervisor's personal enmity.  You *have* heard of enmity
>> arising from homophobia, yes?
> 
> Well, I've never personally seen it in action, but I'll take 
> your word for it.  
> 
> Walter

Walter, and anyone else who hasn't "seen" this before, there is a simple
experiment you can try:

COME OUT to people (even if you aren't gay or bisexual.) Tell people that you
are, Walter.

You'll more than just see enmity -- you'll feel it.

Afterwards, tell them you were just experimenting. Some will believe you. Some
won't. Regardless, you'll never be treated the same again. AND you'll be able
to empathize with this reality.

Otherwise, go away. Your little logic challenges are about as annoying as a 
small child who incessantly uses the question, "Why?"

-- 
---\"Faster than //\\//\\/David Speakman\//\\//\\ .---------------------------.
----\ a speeding \00daspeakman@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu/ | S5/8 bg-l-y+zno+x+auv+j+  |
----/\ Lambda.." //\\/hocake@bsu-cs.bsu.edu\\//\\ |        B0/1 t+k+s-        |
---/  \          \\d000dlphi@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu\// `---------------------------'
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: std_macmilla@hg.uleth.ca
Subject: Re: HOMOS IN THE BIBLE
Reply-To: std_macmilla@hg.uleth.ca
Organization: University of Lethbridge
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 02:10:10 GMT

I recently did some research in this area and found Tom Horner's
 work,Jonathan Loved David: Homosexuality in Biblical Times
and L. William Countryman's work,Dirt, Greed, Sex: Sexual Ethics
in the New Testament and Their Implications for Today, Had some insight
into the subject.  From Horner:

 "When the two men come from a society that for two hundred years
 had lived in the shadow of the Philistine culture, which accepted
 homosexuality; when they find themselves in a social context that was
 thoroughly military in theEastern sense; when one of them - who is
 the social superior of the two - publicly makes a display of his
 love; when they meet secretly and kiss each other and shed copious
 tears at parting; when his love for the other surpassed his love
 for women - and all of this is present in the David - Jonathan
 liaison - we have every reason to believe that a homosexual relation-
 ship existed" (horner 28).
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: endora@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Ken McCamish)
Subject: Re: the story ends with a cliff hanger?
Keywords: kidnapping, beards, bikes
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 22:03:22 GMT

In article <1992Dec30.232524.27013@macc.wisc.edu> anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:
>In article <1992Dec30.215618.25757@spdcc.com> dyer@spdcc.com
>(Steve Dyer) writes:
>
>>In article <1992Dec30.201347.5098@psych.toronto.edu>
>jarvis@psych.toronto.edu (Brian Jarvis) writes:
>
>>>I'll buy one, then.  Raising the ante,
>
>>This isn't fair!  You live down the street from Ken!
>
>Why, of course it's fair.  All's fair in love, war, and
>motorcycles.  I plan to be *ever* so ingratiating, in
>hopes of having a ride.
>

I'd *love* to be a part of this, but you already have a Ken.  (Everyone
should.)


               /\   
-Ken McCamish /__\, and only he.
               
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Blame not thyself; Cry     |    "Yes, we're all | "Whew! That was a
witch!  - Samantha Stevens  | different! "       |  little heart-stopper
                            |"I'm not"  "Shh!"   | for Auntie Elmira!" -
                            |-Monty Python       | - Elmira Duff of TTA
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Subject: Re: penis size (was Re: Muffin on Parade)
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 93 02:14:58 GMT

In article <C05GBv.tq@agora.rain.com> bcapps@agora.rain.com
(Brent Capps) writes:

>dauber@tattoo.mti.sgi.com (Jeff Dauber) writes:

>>Again, why do you care?  Is there anything you can do
>>about the size of your penis?  No?  Then why expend energy
>>worrying about it?

>Or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Being Treated
>as a Sex Object.  I think there are more than a few
>feminists who would find it pretty easy to shoot your
>argument full of holes.

What's full of holes, Brent, is that sort of "logic." I
think it's pretty arrogant of you to equate your complaints
to those of women.  You are a man.  You are not
systematically and ubiquitously discounted and degraded --
in any and all regards -- by this society.  You have
*enormous* power and privilege, not because you deserve it,
but merely because you are male.  Even if you tied your
level best, you would never be in the comparable situation
where women are; for you to claim that ground as your own is
not appropriate; whatever else one might say about it, your
dick spares you from any threat of being treated as
disgustingly as women are treated in this life.

I would hope you will be as educated by this as you suggest
others have been by your remarks.

-- 
[Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin]
[Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson]
[Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888]
[---------> Discrimination, Bigotry, and Hate are not Family Values <---------]
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Subject: Re: Congratulating (het) parents on their new baby
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 17:22:37 GMT

In article <Bzo2DH.DFx@cs.columbia.edu> ji@cs.columbia.edu
(John Ioannidis) writes:

>So here are my questions:

>[re birth announcements, proud parents, &c, &c]

>4. Why do we never see such messages by same-sex couples? [...]

God knows I've tried, honey!  :-) Tried and tried and tried.
No babies.  But the trying *was* fun, and I really didn't
want the babies all that much.

-- 
[Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin]
[Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson]
[Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888]
[---------> Discrimination, Bigotry, and Hate are not Family Values <---------]
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: max@queernet.org (Max J. Rochlin)
Subject: Re: Marky Mark on New Years Eve
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 18:00:36 GMT
Organization: QueerNet

In article <mattm-221292153753@mcmelmon.apple.com> mattm@apple.com (Matthew Melmon) writes:
>In article <92357.105846SECBH@CUNYVM.BITNET>, <SECBH@CUNYVM.BITNET> wrote:
>
>> The boy-in-Calvin-Klein's-shorts
>
>But its the boy *out* of the Calvin-Klein shorts that we really
>want...

You can't always get what you want.


-- 
+-----------------------------------------+
|  max@queernet.org  |   Max J. Rochlin   |
+-----------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: mara@panix.com (Mara Chibnik)
Subject: Re: A Taste of Culture
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 16:49:07 GMT
Organization: (getting there)

At the suggestion of Karen Kenny aka Mel,
shore@dinah.tc.cornell.edu (Melinda Shore) writes:

 >As those of you who are long-time readers know, I am
 >completely without humor - it gets stated here so often
 >that it must be true.

Oh, thanks, Melinda.  I keep _forgetting_ this about you.


-- 

  Mara Chibnik
  mara@panix.com                Life is too important to be taken seriously.
From: an104@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ric Helton)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: GLAAD: The New York Times, getting better
Date: 30 Dec 92 01:31:18 GMT
Reply-To: an104@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ric Helton)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu



LAVENDER TIMES

Throughout 1992, _The New York Times_ has upped the quality and
quantity of its gay stories. Prominent coverage was given to the
Oregon anti-gay initiative, continuing witch hunts against gays
and lesbians in the military, the Boy Scouts' anti-gay policies
and many other issues. Cultural reporting frequently deals with
gay themes in film, theatre and TV. Lifestyle stories are
increasingly lesbian- and gay-inclusive. Only the foreign desk
still ignores gay issues.

Just weeks before the election the Sunday _New York Times
Magazine_ explored the gay community's growing political clout in
a coverstory titled, "Gay Politics Goes Mainstream," by openly
gay reporter Jeffrey Schmalz.

Editorials attacked Republican gay-bashing and supported NYC's
gay-inclusive school cirriculum, while gay & lesbian OP-Ed
voices ranged from rabble-rouser Michaelangelo Signorile, to gay
conservative Marvin Liebman, and a first-person account of
lesbian motherhood.

About a year ago, Arthur Sulzberger Jr. became the new publisher
of the _Times_. Tell him you've noticed the improvements (also
due to executive editor Max Frankel and managing editor Joseph
Lelyveld). Also mention the need for better foreign coverage.

        Arthur Sulberger Jr., Publisher
        _The New York Times_
        229 W. 43rd Street
        New York, NY 10036
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: spencer@der.Princeton.EDU (S. Spencer Sun)
Subject: Re: EE statements (was: Re: Attention Skiers Boycotting Colorado)
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: spencer@phoenix.princeton.edu (S. Spencer Sun)
Organization: Live Organ Transplants
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 08:44:23 GMT

In article <1ht79qINN6dp@hp-col.col.hp.com>, smithw@col.hp.com (Walter Smith) writes:
>mhr@hpuerca.atl.hp.com (Mike Reaser) writes:
>> BBC put it best:  all the Equal Opportunity policies in world are useless
>> if the _law_ doesn't allow you to use them.  And that's what Amendment 2
>> does.
>
>You really think HP would fire you in violation of their own EE statement? 

In article <1ht8mdINN79g@hp-col.col.hp.com>, smithw@col.hp.com (Walter Smith) writes:
>mhr@hpuerca.atl.hp.com (Mike Reaser) writes:
>> Simply have an EE statement does _NOT_ guarantee it will not be violated.
>
>I agree that you should be able to seek relief in the court system.  But 
>I find so much of the rest to be hysteria.  How many examples can you 
>refer to where companies have violated their own EE policies?  

In one sense, I'm not sure it's relevant whether HP would or wouldn't
fire Mr. Reaser in violation of its own EE policy, or if there are
examples of companies violating their own EE policies.  Yes, the
scenario involves some possibly unlikely hypotheticals, but IF the
hyptoehtical situation proposed by Mr. Reaser (HP decide to hire only
bisexuals and fires both of you) were to be realized, then you would be
able to seek legal rewourse and he couldn't.

Doesn't that strike you as being just plain wrong?  The likelihood of
the situation does not change its moral value.

-----
sss/PU'94 Dept of CS (spencer@phoenix.princeton.edu)/JvNCnet (spencer@jvnc.net)
"No, just _a_ Zaphod Beeblebrox.  Haven't you heard I come in six packs?"

Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: tdbear@dvorak.amd.com (Thomas D. Barrett)
Subject: Re: Austin, TX joins Colo. Boycott
Organization: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.; Austin, Texas
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 93 11:57:25 GMT

In article <1992Dec29.164245.16936@lclark.edu> snodgras@lclark.edu (Bil Snodgrass) writes:
>
>I don't see how Austin could have an equal rights ordinance for g/l
>because of Texas law 26.01....but it is a real hip place. 

My mistake (new here)... see my other post.  

As for 26.01, Austin law does not stipulate that one cannot
discriminate on the basis of sexual activity.  THRC has a kick-off
"party" tomorrow night and I think that the case will be heard sometimes
this month (if not this week).  I have yet to join THRC so my
information is very limited.



-- 
|Tom Barrett (TDBear), Sr. Engineer|tom.barrett@amd.com|v:512-462-6856 |
|AMD PCD MS-520 | 5900 E. Ben White|Austin, TX  78741  |f:512-462-5155 |
|"No is yes, And we're all free"   |CO made a #2 no-no... PU!          |
|My views are my own and may not be the same as the company of origin  |
Newsgroups: soc.motss