HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hyder@cs.utexas.edu (Syed Irfan Hyder)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: Shah Waliullah
Date: 3 Jan 1993 18:35:05 -0600
Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: pageboy.cs.utexas.edu

In article <1i66p3INNl18@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> khan@ces.cwru.edu (Mansoor Khan) writes:
>
>	But why did he have to invite a foreign ruler to save Dehli?
>	Mughal Govt. was quite messed up by now, but it was not a gone
>	case yet. In fact, I guess Ahmad Shah Abdali and Nadir Shah
>	are the two people who destroyed the Govt in India and paved
>	the way for British East India Company. 
....
>	Shah Waliullah could have asked someone in the Mughal govt to
>	do the same job. For example, Navabs( Governors) of Avadh
		......

The problem we were confronting then, as we do today, is that the
Islamic ulemas and thinkers left the political stage to the
people like Navaabs of Avadh, Abdali, ..., ...

The problem emanating from this invitation was indeed recognized
by the very desciples of Shah Waliullah, namely,  Sheikh Ismail Shaheed and
Syed Ahmed Shaheed. However, their valiant effort to liberate Punjab
from teh clutches of Rangit Singh were invain and they fell martyred
in 1821 in Balakot. 

The desciples of Syed Ahmed Shaheed and Sheikh Ismail Shaheed like
Ashraf Ali Thanvi could not  emulate their teachers because
of the persecution of British in the aftermath of 1857's war
 of independence.
Fortunately, however, today we are seeing a resurgence all over
the Muslim world in cognizance of your very valid question i.e.
"But why did he have to invite a foreign ruler to save Dehli?"

Islamic scholars all over the Muslim world have now realized that
the only way to change the malaise the Muslims find themselves in,
is that they regain the lost stewardship of not only the morality, 
but also, the politics, economics, and intellectual of the Muslim
world.

However, the advantage lost over hundreds of years can not be
recuperated in a few years. So, the efforts are underway. We
are seeing a change. You may like to read Hasan Turabi's interview
in this regard. He mentions some of the prsent trends of how the
Islamic scholars are attempting to change the Muslim situation.


Xref: sparky soc.culture.pakistan:18903 soc.culture.indian:42172 soc.culture.bangladesh:7153
From: fafat@aludra.usc.edu (Vijay Fafat)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.bangladesh
Subject: Re: The Quran and the Modern Science
Date: 28 Dec 1992 14:19:25 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: aludra.usc.edu

Mustafa Ibrahim writes:
>For the purpose of his study, Dr. Bucaille grouped such Quranic

>All this is in perfect agreement with modern ideas on the existence of
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>primary nebula and the process of secondary separation of the elements that
>had formed the initial uniaque mass. This separation resulted in the
>formation of galaxies and then, when these divided , of stars from which
>the planets were to be born. 

	The galaxies thing which you describe is
	NOT "in perfect agreement" with anything. What Quran only *sketches*
	is the "top-down" hypothesis in Astrophysics. It's a major debate
	right now whether it was the galaxies which came first or the stars.
	To say that the author(s?) of Quran had any inkling about what was
	really going on is "blasphemy" :)


>Biblical text with its successive phases that are totally unacvceptable;
>especially  the one placing the Creation of the earth (on the 3rd day)
>before that of the Heavens(on the 4th day) , when is is a known fact that
>our planet comes from its own star, the Sun. 

	The Quran is as much cock and bull as Bible or Gita when it comes
	to describing the *physical* world.

	FFT
From: hasan@cs.washington.edu (Shams Hasan)
Subject: Pakistan, a nation waiting to be borned...
Organization: Computer Science & Engineering, U. of Washington, Seattle
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 92 17:48:04 GMT


Dear netters,

I have been speaking to an Indian friend who recently arrived from India.
From him I learnt the steady rise of software programmers in India, who are
making significant inroads in bringing high quality software engineering
to the Indian infra-structure. Frankly I am envious. Not just because of
the country being India, but more so because Pakistanis seem to be so much
more resourceful overseas.

I know that in Pakistan literacy is not a priority for the majority of the
landed gentry, LVQs, etc, as it works against their interests of keeping their
slaves/servants in status quo. This I learnt in Aitchision College, Lahore,
where I was a A-Level student in 1981.

However, literacy is a revolution that no power can keep under a lid.
Thus, my question to you is, how can the fortunate ones, like the wealthy
foreign students, the successful student/professionals who have benifited
by going overseas to pursue money/education/honest way of life, make even
a small difference to a small school in Pakistan ? 

Any ideas.... ?
From: hyder@cs.utexas.edu (Syed Irfan Hyder)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: Waliullah
Date: 1 Jan 1993 15:26:23 -0600
Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: pageboy.cs.utexas.edu

In article <1hsaoeINNcla@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> khan@ces.cwru.edu (Mansoor Khan) writes:
>
:	Shah Waliullah
:	______________
:
:	Shah Waliullah is an important person in Indian-Subcontinent history. 
:	I have a question. Why did  he invite Ahmad Shah Abdali to
:	India. Did he really invite him, or Ahmad Shah Abdali was gonna
:	come to India any way. 

Shah Waliullah (1703-1760) explicitly requested Ahmed Shah Abdali 
via a letter to come and save Dehli from the anarchy prevalent 
there at that time, around 1750, I guess. 
 Furrukh Sair had met a terrible death,
looters were playing havoc with the city....


Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: an3923@anon.penet.fi
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Learn English, Saeed. ( Was Re: Apology demanded from dchatterjee)
Date: 26 Dec 92 20:38:21 GMT
Organization: Anonymous contact service
X-Anonymously-To: soc.culture.pakistan



In article <783fall217@cse.unl.edu>, fall217@cse.unl.edu ( Syed Agha Saeed) writes:
> I want to clarify one thing that I am not agree with the
> thoughts of mr.shams either. Dont assume that I am supporting
> such kind of things.
>

	At least your grammatical style is just as coherent as his:-)
Why don't you guys take a hike and while you are at it, learn a little
bit of English from an elementary school? After all, you guys need to undo
the filthy madrasa material that you learned in your childhood.

	Don't even assume that I am supporting such kind of things:-)

> syed agha saeed

Irfan Ahmed,
Sys. Admin, Calico Tech.
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To find out more about the anon service, send mail to help@anon.penet.fi.
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From: shamim@onyx.egr.msu.edu (Tariq Shamim)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: DISGUSTED!!!!!!!
Keywords: all the *F* words!
Date: 22 Dec 92 17:31:43 GMT
Organization: College of Engineering, Michigan State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: onyx.egr.msu.edu

In article <dbose.724976768@sirocco.aem.umn.edu>, dbose@aem.umn.edu (Deepak Bose) writes:
|> amjad@qureshi.austin.ibm.com () writes:
|> > 
|> >  
>>>>>   ....stuff deleated........
>>>>
|> > Amjad Qureshi
|> >
|> 	AMJAD BHAI ,
|> 			I JUST HAVE TO ADD TWO MORE NAMES :
|> 
|> 
|> 			(*) soc.DEFAME.INDIA
|> 			(*) soc.DEFAME.HINDUS
|> 
|> 			Look most appropriate , don't they ?
|> 
|> 			HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!

India and Hindus dont need any more defame or disgrace, as long as you hold an
Indian Passport/nationality.

		My sympathies with Indians

Tariq Shamim
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: 3040_3744@uwovax.uwo.ca
Subject: MQM: a serious joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Organization: University of Western Ont, London
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 04:24:28 GMT


Altaf Hussain retired. So what is the big deal?  It was an out come of the
prayers of thousends of people who had suffered from him or at least knew what
he was doing.

It's funny that he was fighting for Mohajir's. I think he was as Jahil as
other leaders of Pakistan, because he doesn't know the meaning of the word
Mohajir. Do any body think that after 45 years there will be a single mohajir in
Pakistan? Its really funny that the leader of the so called MQM has been
keeping the national I.D. card and has been traveling on Pakistani Passport
himself. How could he be a Mohajir?
Actually he was as hungry for power as other leaders in Pakistan. What a
shame! 

Pakistan and specially Karachi the great "Roshniun ka Shehar" will never
forgive and forget him for turning the city into darkness, for keeping torture
and rape cells.

Rich people are in command everywhere in Pakistan, no matter it is
Sindh, Punjab, Baluchistan or Serhad. Poor people are suffuring in every
province, waiting and praying for some one who could fight to end their
suffurings.

           And Pakistan is waiting for some one who could fight for the
soliderity of Pakistan as a whole.

Shehla Mirza.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: mghayalo@uceng.uc.edu (Manoj Ghayalod)
Subject: Re: Shams Hasan, stop the blasphemy
Organization: University of Cincinnati
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 17:26:03 GMT

In article <1hao7dINNfmi@crcnis1.unl.edu> fall217@cse.unl.edu () writes:
> I am sorry to interupt mr and mrs Idiot.  The history of more than 1400 years and allover the world can not be genralized by one or even several incidents like one you mentioned (supposing every thing you have mentioned is true).  
>
>One more thing I want to point out, that you dont define sikism by the behaviour of Rangeet singh,cristianity by the Hitler and the birtishers and the Neuclear attack at Japan, so how inteligent is to define islam by any action of one king   or all the a
ctions of one king or so on and so forth.
>
>Or hinduism by the actions of Jay pal or indra gandhi.  I really dont know the names of BJP b.......d leaders
>
>Or jewdaism by the actions of Isreali goverment.
>
>I am sure you have got the point that you may have problem with baber (you may not know his side of story) but to make a point from his actions shows that you really had no point. 
>Did ever muslims said that they want to stablish a goverment as Baber did?
>
>Pleas dont take any thing personal. if you have any thing against me or some body write him personally dont bore other people.
>thank you
>naqvi.
>

Naqvi,

If you don't define those kings as Muslims, then don't get upset and resort
to name calling.  Indra Gandhi did not do anything in the name of Hinduism,
she was only interested in secularism and she saved the Bangladeshis from
the persecution of the Pakistani govt, for that we are proud of her.

Satwinder is responding to the Irani/Pathan's posting in which he claimed
that Islam is a tolerant religion and spread through the subcontinent
through brotherly love as a favor against Hindu nazism.  Satwinder has
shown some excellent examples from history which contradict this claim.
Many have said that these Kings were not true Muslims, but everything
they did they did in the name of Islam.  I don't know what govt Babar had,
I assume he had an Islamic govt(I know Aurangzeb had an Islamic govt),
so do muslims want to establish a govt like Babar?  The anwser is yes,
and the country is Pakistan.  

In my opinion Satwinder does not have anything against today's Muslims,
he just wants to know why are Kings like Aurangzeb and Babar glorified?


Manoj
Xref: sparky soc.culture.pakistan:18917 soc.culture.indian:42206 soc.culture.bangladesh:7166
From: salama@topaz.ucq.edu.au
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.bangladesh
Subject: Re: The Quran and the Modern Science
Date: 2 Jan 93 10:37:52 AET
Distribution: world
Organization: UCQ

In article <1hu3svINNl2q@nyquist.usc.edu>, shivanan@nyquist.usc.edu (Mr. Shivanan Bhajekar) writes:
> Posted for FFT:
> 
> In article <1992Dec31.112841.13157@topaz.ucq.edu.au> salama@topaz.ucq.edu.au writes:
>>In article <1992Dec29.203201.45959@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>, dchatterjee@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes:
>>>   ......(deleted)..... 
> 	Excuse me but that's plain hogwash. Give me one physicist, mathematical
> 	or otherwise, of Hawking's stature who's not well-disputed. Hawking
> 	had God-like reverence even before he was to write the book. His
> 	credibility does'nt beg propaganda but rather, rests on his own work.
> 
      Here you are! Hawking is "God-like" or virtual God :-|) for you then it
is a matter of faith, isn't it? You have faith in Hawking and I don't because
as a mathematical physicist I am his critic and colleague.

> 
>>>    .........(deleted)......                                                        
> 	Why is Pervez irrelevant and busy B not? Pervez has some very good
> 	comments on B.. and pretty pertinent ones.
> 
    Because we are not discussing Pervez or busy B here. Our subject is Dr.B's
book. I won't let you change the topic. :-|)

> 
>>    ......(deleted)......                                                  
> 
> 	He makes a pretty poor scientist since he seems to have forsaken the
> 	basic tools of his trade. Milind, here's how Salam has been trying
> 	to have the Quran as Divine and ascribe "scientific value" to it.
> 
      I didn't say that it is SCIENTIFIC interpretation instead I mentioned
it as a SCIENTIST'S interpretation. Got the point?

> 
>>has talked about God and religion in term of science. He is much criticised
>>because his references are to the Quran. A famous Australian theoretical
>>physicist Paul Davies does the samething except that he associates with the
>>"western theology" and is praised for that reason. His book "The mind of God"
>>has won the UREKA prize.
> 
> 	 To compare B with Paul Davies is ridiculous. And can you produce ONE
> 	quote of Davies where he accepts the conventional God? His book
> 	"The accidental universe" might give an impression to the careless
> 	reader that he's talking
> 	about a grand designer. He does nothing of the sort. Nor does he
> 	in "The mind of God"
> 
      For you the comparision is ridiculous because one (Dr. B) talks about
Islam and the other (P. Davies) talks about western theology. It is true
that he never mentions a "conventional" God but tell me what he means when
he refers to "western theology".


>>
>>     I don't understand why you take Hawking's work as the gospel truth. I 
> 
> 	And why do you take the Quran as the gospel truth?
>
     Did I ever say that?
 
> 	FFT
> 
> 
> 
      Salam
      (means peace)
From: hyder@cs.utexas.edu (Syed Irfan Hyder)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: Altaf retires
Date: 27 Dec 1992 14:43:31 -0600
Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: pageboy.cs.utexas.edu

In article <1hj0sfINN50m@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> khan@ces.cwru.edu (Mansoor Khan) writes:
>
>	Altaf's retirement has also proved something else. In Pakistan
>it is difficult to survive in politics if you are not in the good books
>of Zamindars/jagirdars or one of them. Do you think people like 

I agree with most of your other points, but would like to take
exception with the above one.

1: The hold of jagirdaars/zamindaars is at an end. By the end
   of this century more than 50% of our population would be in
   the cities. (There were more than 80% people in the rural areas
   about 25 years ago).

2: An industrialist's accession to Premiership is an indication of this
   shift. Although many of his leaguers are zamindars, but their
   support for an industrialist instead of a zamindar suports this shift.

3: It can of course be argued whether the shift will bring a substantial
   change. There will still be corruption, but probably not crude like
   the way of Zaradaris, but rather more sophisticated like that of the
   Keatings!

4: Altaf Husains decision not to return is a direct indication of 
   the different dynamics of a metropolitan areas, where info. gets
   around more quickly, people get around more quickly, so it
   is difficult to hoodwink the people. I think MQM in Karachi
   was very clear that no way Altaf could return.
From: imustafa@slate.mines.colorado.edu (MUSTAFA IBRAHIM )
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: To FOCKING Mustafa Ibrahim
Date: 22 Dec 92 16:47:32 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Colorado School of Mines

In article <1992Dec21.145955.18511@prism.poly.edu> ahussain@prism.poly.edu (Arshad Hussain) writes:
>
>Founder Of Committee for the Killing of Islamic Nations Globally(FOCKING)
>Mustafa Ibrahim: Shut up!!

             
 	Bareee  dair key maharban atay atay

This should be Fockeing " founder of committee for the killing of enemies
of islamic nations globally. 


Moron you forgot  ' e '.
From: khan@ces.cwru.edu (Mansoor Khan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: RE: Shah Waliullah
Date: 3 Jan 1993 08:05:55 GMT
Organization: Computer Engineering and Science, Case Western Reserve University
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: king.ces.cwru.edu

To my question about Shah Waliullah, Syed Saaheb replied.....


>In article <1hsaoeINNcla@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> khan@ces.cwru.edu (Mansoor Khan) writes:
>
>:	Shah Waliullah
>:	______________
>:
>:	Shah Waliullah is an important person in Indian-Subcontinent history. 
>:	I have a question. Why did  he invite Ahmad Shah Abdali to
>:	India. Did he really invite him, or Ahmad Shah Abdali was gonna
>:	come to India any way. 

>Shah Waliullah (1703-1760) explicitly requested Ahmed Shah Abdali 
>via a letter to come and save Dehli from the anarchy prevalent 
>there at that time, around 1750, I guess. 
> Furrukh Sair had met a terrible death,
>looters were playing havoc with the city....


	But why did he have to invite a foreign ruler to save Dehli.
	Mughal Govt. was quite messed up by now, but it was not a gone
	case yet. In fact, I guess Ahmad Shah Abdali and Nadir Shah
	are the two people who destroyed the Govt in India and paved
	the way for British East India Company. 
	Shah Waliullah could have asked someone in the Mughal govt to
	do the same job. For example, Navabs( Governors) of Avadh
	and Deccan were pretty powerful and had good enough armies.
	I have read that Nadir Shah before leaving Dehli suggested
	to the Governor of Deccan( Nizam) that he should take over
	the throne in Dehli, but he refused. 

Mansoor Khan
Cleveland, Ohio
e 

Xref: sparky soc.culture.pakistan:19115 soc.culture.indian:42692 soc.culture.bangladesh:7285
From: hyder@cs.utexas.edu (Syed Irfan Hyder)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.bangladesh
Subject: Re: The Quran and the Modern Science
Date: 3 Jan 1993 18:10:18 -0600
Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin
NNTP-Posting-Host: pageboy.cs.utexas.edu

In article <1993Jan3.015802.7641@news.nd.edu> milind@agni.cc.nd.edu (Milind Saraph) writes:
>From: hyder@cs.utexas.edu (Syed Irfan Hyder)

::Sura 6:
:
::25. And of them is he who hearkens to you, and We have cast
::veils over their hearts lest they understand it and a heaviness into
::their ears; and even if they see every sign they will not believe in
::it; so much so that when they come to you they only dispute with
::you; those who disbelieve say: This is naught but the stories of
::the ancients.
:
:Although, you do not explicitly say so, you seem to want to lump
:unbelievers like me (and others) and believers like Hoodbhoy,
:Salam (and others on SCP).  You seem to be questioning the ability
:of people who do not agree with Bucaille, to "understand, reflect
:and ponder" the meaning of the signs.  You seem to be close to
:condemning those who do not agree with your favorite interpretation,
:and hint at eternal damnation for these.

Sura 48:

4. He it is Who sent down tranquillity into the hearts of
 the believers that they might have more of faith added to
 their faith-- and Allah's are the hosts of the heavens and
 the earth, and Allah is Knowing, Wise--

 S. That He may cause the believing men and the believing
 women to enter gardens beneath which rivers flow to abide
 therein and remove from them their evil; and that is a grand
 achievement with Allah

Sura 3:

29. Say: Whether you hide what is in your hearts or manifest it,
Allah knows it, and He knows whatever is in the heavens and
whatever is in the earth, and Allah has power over all things.


Sura 8:

2. Those only are believers whose hearts become full of fear
when Allah is mentioned, and when His communications are
recited to them they increase them in faith, and in their Lord do
they trust.

Sura 13:

 27. And those who disbelieve say: Why is not a sign sent
 down upon him by his Lord? Say: Surely Allah makes him who
 will go astray, and guides to Himself those who turn (to
 Him).

 28. Those who believe and whose hearts are set at rest by
 the remembrance of Allah; now surely by Allah's remembrance
 are the hearts set at rest.

 29. (As for) those who believe and do good, a good final
 state shall be theirs and a goodly return.
From: "faraz rabbani" <faraz.rabbani@canrem.com>
Subject: re: washington ready to b
Reply-To: "faraz rabbani" <faraz.rabbani@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: soc
Date: 21 Dec 92 20:57:59 EST

To: mghayalo@uceng.uc.edu (Manoj Ghayalod)

MG> In article <dbose.724793192@khamsin.aem.umn.edu> dbose@aem.umn.edu
 MG> (Deepak Bose) writes: >fall217@cse.unl.edu () writes:
 >
 >  OOOOOH !  LOOK A MUSLIM IS TALKING ABOUT "rights of human being" !!!!
 >
 > HA   HA   HA    HA   HA   HA  HA   !!!!
 >
 > THESE MOTHER F***KERS CREATE A WORST POSSIBLE SEXIST SOCIETY
 >
 > WHERE :
 >
 >  A WOMAN'S TESTIMONY IS GIVEN ONLY HALF THE VALUE THAN
 >  THAT OF A MAN'S .
 >
 >  THESE SHAMELESS PEOPLE MARRY FOUR TIMES JUST TO SATISFY
 >  THEIR SEXUAL DESIRES .
 >
 >  IN SAUDI ARABIA A WOMAN CAN'T EVEN DRIVE .
 >
 >  A WOMAN CAN"T COME OUT HER HOUSE WITHOUT A BURKHA(FACE COVER)
 >
 > GO AND SEE THE PLIGHT OF SIKHS AND HINDUS IN AFGANISTAN .
 >
 > I FEEL LIKE SHITTING ON YOUR FACE WHEN YOU TALK OF 'HUMAN RIGHTS"
 >
 >>follish Indian myth of police man of subcontinent.  India is not more than a
 MG> dog of USA which >               ^^^^^^^^^^^
 >
 > HAD YOUR FUCKING COUNTRY TAUGHT YOU ANYTHING ABOUT CURRENT AFFAIRS
 > YOU WOULDN'T HAVE SAID THAT .
 >
 > ( KUTTE KI MAFIK AMERICA KE SAAMNE TO AAJ TAK TUMNE DUM HILAAYA HAI )
 > AUR INDIA KO 'dog of USA ' KEHETE HO )
 >
 >>India policemem and Paramillitry could not controll an unarmed crowd.  It is
 >a^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 >
 > INDIAN POLICEMEN AND PARAMILITARY CAN EVEN GO INSIDE YOUR
 > COUNTRY , DESTROY ALL YOUR 'MASJIDS' AND COME BACK TO
 > INDIA , UNHARMED .
 >
 >   UNDERSTAND YOU NUT !!
 >    
 >     HINDUSTAN ZINDABAD !!!!

                [etc...]

 MG> Cool it.  Writing obnoxious articles in the net is not going to change
 MG> the state of the world.  I think you are misguided in thinking
 MG> that you are defending India, by your langauge you are insulting
 MG> India. 

Exactly!  He shows the worst aspect of the ignorant, dull and
senseless HinduversusMuslimism (*and* vise versa)...

Why can't we accentuate the (MANY) similarities we have.

And like the Qu'ran says, "Lakum deenakum, wa leii deen" --> "You
have your religion and we have ours."

Faraz Rabbani

... Gypsy dwarf escapes jail: Small medium at large
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.11
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World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
Xref: sparky soc.culture.pakistan:18830 soc.culture.bangladesh:7108 soc.culture.indian:42026