HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Donna.D'Iorio@f7022.n124.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Donna D'Iorio)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Clean And Unclean Un
Date: 24 Aug 92 15:24:00 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:124/7022 - MAXUS World H, Dallas TX


    IN RESPONSE TO LAURA MANNINEN:
LJ> From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
LJ> Date: 22 Aug 92 18:21:34 GMT
LJ> Organization: University of Turku
LJ> Message-ID: <LJMORLY.92Aug22192134@polaris.utu.fi>
LJ> Newsgroups: alt.messianic
LJ>
LJ> In article <2459@tredysvr.Tredydev.Unisys.COM>
LJ> tom@tredysvr.Tredydev.Unisys.COM (Tom Albrecht) writes:
LJ> > I'm sure Donna KNOWS my theology inside and out.
LJ>
LJ> Donna, I've got TA's theology on files (or one version of it). Would
LJ> you like to see it ?


    Indeed, Laura.  Thanks for supplying the info.  Several have mentioned
certain teachings of TA's here that I would be interested to see for myself,
including "the synagogue of Satan" stuff, and I forget the other false
interepretation that was mentioned in the same breath.
    I dialogue with someone here in Dallas on a local board who is also a
post-mill Presyb, borderline Reconstructionsist (ala Rushdooney and his
son-in-law, Gary North)....although the local fellow is much cagier than Tom
about revealing his true theological stance.  I am much interested to see
how deeply the tentacles of this line of thinking dig....so please! U/L what
you have on file!
    Have just come from a conference where Dan Juster gave an excellent
perspective on the history of the church which followed the development of
gentilized-theology--the decline from apostolic teaching, and the
painstaking restoration of truths back to the body of Messiah.  Since the
true relationship between Jewish and Gentile believers was the first truth
to be lost, it will likely be the last truth to be restored--but that time
is at hand, so knowing the exact tangents of departure are important for us
to study and know.  Ultimately, though, this is a spiritual battle and our
weapons of bringing information must be immersed in prayer.  Information
alone is not sufficient to combat spiritual blindness.  (I say this to
remind myself as much as any others! grin)
    Shalom! Donna
___
 X MegaMail 2.10 #1473:Blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord

--  
Donna D'Iorio - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Donna.D'Iorio@f7022.n124.z1.FIDONET.ORG
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Words Like Arrows
Date: 2 Sep 92 17:44:18 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 8:7002/1.0


To: Robert A. Levene

 RA=>You have it backwards.  "Messianics" calling their religion
 RA=>Jewish is like Harvey Smith changing his name to Harvey 
 RA=>Rockefeller
 RA=>and demanding a share in the family fortune.  The Rockefellers
 RA=>can't disown him, but they can stop him from claiming an
 RA=>inheritance, and insist that for clarity he make clear his
 RA=>affiliation with the Smith family.

Hummm Robert, i dunno wot you mean by the above, but my hebrew name at my 
bris is Tsvi, and Eli.  Since i am from a levitical home, i was given two 
hebrew names at birth...

Second, my family and i are orthodox Jews, so don't let the name Smith throw 
you.  My grandfather was Rabbi Moti Holtzman on my mothers side, and Meyer 
Smith on my fathers side...

I am Jewish because i am Jewish, has nothing to do with my belief system... 
 

--  
Harvey Smith - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG
From: dfm2@jaguar.uofs.edu
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re:Book: The Bible and UFOs
Date: 2 Sep 92 20:31:42 GMT
Organization: University of Scranton

RE: ufo's and the bible
There was a book in my high school library, i believe on that subject.
it supposed that Ezekiel's chariot, Elijah's disapperance, and much
dinine revelation to be the work of UFOs
I didn't think it seemed that rare.
Anyway, call 516-289-4331. Its the main office.
I don't remember the library's no.
the school is Bellport HS on Beaver Dam Rd, Brookhaven, NY 11713
I doubt this is what you're looking for, but its a shot.
Incidentally, no catholics have been excommunicated in Twentieth Century
America, except one abortion practicioner in Texas, quite recently.
If that author is american, and he made that claim, he is a balf-faced liar,
and I would verify any premise or assertion he makes.
From: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Clean And Unclean Un / Maccoby book
Date: 27 Aug 92 12:36:42 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 8:7002/1.0

To: Robert A. Levene


 RA=>It seems like "religious confusion" is the bread and butter of 
 RA=>folks
 RA=>like Harvey Smith who post statements such as "we believe that
 RA=>Biblical Judaism is in fact New Covenant, which is called 
 RA=>Christianity"

Its not confusing to us MJ's thats for sure.  The world calls Biblical 
Judaism "Christianity", and lists it as a separate religion.  

However, MJ's know that Biblical Judaism and Biblical Jewish Christianity 
are both the same thing.  The fulfillment of Messiah is Jewish in concept 
and promise in biblical Judaism, whether you believe Yeshua is the Messiah 
or not.  That should be simple enough to understand.

I would tend to agree with you and others that if we are talking about post 
Nicean Christianity, then we are indeed speaking of another religion other 
than Biblical Judaism.  But Pre Nicean Faith, is Biblical Judaism.  However, 
please note that i do not say Rabbinic Judaism as that also is a different 
religion than Pre Exilic Judaism, though it has its roots there as MJism has 
its roots pre exilic...
 


--  
Harvey Smith - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Subject: Re: Biblical
Organization: University of Turku
	<1992Sep1.004028.1@vax1.umkc.edu>
Date: 4 Sep 92 10:43:09

In article <1992Sep1.004028.1@vax1.umkc.edu> tbeaudoin@vax1.umkc.edu writes:
> In article <LJMORLY.92Aug27124005@polaris.utu.fi>, ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen) writes:
> >> What do Mormons or JW's have to do with anything?
> > 
> > They both hold Yeshua as the central figure in their religions, but
> > have attached stuff to their doctrines that is not biblical. (Someone 
> > else could maybe explain this more accurately, if necessary.)
> > 

> 	Allow me to raise a red herring: what exactly is "wrong" about
> developing "doctrines" that are not Biblical?  What does "not being
> Biblical" mean?  I'm not trying to be hostile, just trying to pursue this
> point.

"Not Biblical" means contradictory to it. Bible (Tanach along with Brit
haChadasha/NT) is the truth, and if you start veiring from it, you'll 
find yourself in a dead end. 

> Thomas Beaudoin
> Lee's Summit High School
> International Baccalaureate Program

- Laura
--
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans 
of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from ancient, from the days of eternity." - Micha 5:1

"Though the mountains be shaken and the hills be removed, yet my unfailing 
love for you will not be shaken nor my covenant of peace be removed,"
says the LORD, who has compassion on you.    - Yeshaya 54:10

met b'chet, CHAI B'Y'SHUA !
From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: (none)
Date: 25 Aug 1992 16:32:51 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

Subject: Re: (Old) Question for Rob Levene
Organization: Johns Hopkins University

In article <1992Aug19.185536.16827@pbs.org> Bruce Tiffany writes:

...
> Not among *Rabbinic* Jews, whose religion is characterized by the rejection
> of Yeshua as Messiah.

I keep hearing this accusation, but I never get any evidence.  Nu?

>> L'havdil, you can probably find a number of Democrats who sympathize
>> completely with Operation Rescue, but you can't call their position an
>> "entirely DEMOCRAT PARTY view" since few who define party policy hold
>> that belief.
>
> Good analogy!  Because the present "Democratic" Party bears as little
> (maybe even less) resemblance to the Democratic Party of a few decades
> ago as Rabbinic Judaism does to Biblical Judaism.  Thus, I could (but
> won't) find you any number of opinions of historically mainstream
> Democrats which modern "Democrats" would say are not views representative
> of the Democratic Party.

I'm not discussing what Democrat party positions *are*, I'm 
discussing who has the right to call his positions in line
with the Democrat party platform.   If J. Random Candidate
says he's a Democrat, yet agrees with every G.O.P. platform
plank, then he's no Democrat in my book.

[Re: Maccoby's _Mythmaker_ book]
> Irrelevant again.  (But then, I don't think you've read Mike Brown's
> book, which presents a very favorable portrayal of Jews.)

No, I haven't read it.  What is its title, call number, and
publisher, and which Maryland library systems have it?  If
I read it, would you read _Mythmaker?_

Rob
From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Identification with Abraham
Date: 2 Sep 1992 07:31:54 -0500
Organization: Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Lab
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu


In article <2511@tredysvr.Tredydev.Unisys.COM> Tom Albrecht writes:

> who knows.  Unlike many of the Jews of Jesus' and Paul's day, no modern Jew
> I'm aware of can trace a direct, unbroken line back to our father Abraham.

Quite a number can, particularly Jews from Arab countries.  


> Few if any can even identify for sure which of the twelve tribes they are
> descended from (if they are in fact descended from any of the twelve
> tribes.)  Their lineage is based on "oral tradition," rather than
> established fact.

It's more than just oral tradition.  Every Levite, myself included,
has the name "the Levite" at the end of his Hebrew name, and every
Cohen, "the Cohen."  Is it unreasonable for something as basic as
this to be passed down?
From: btiffany@pbs.org
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Strange Bedfellows
Date: 2 Sep 92 12:49:40 GMT
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA

Donna D'Iorio writes:

> bb>I can also highly recommend Mike Brown's book, OUR HANDS ARE
> bb>STAINED WITH BLOOD, ISBN 1-56043-068-0, 1992, published by Destiny Image
> bb>Publishers, P.O. Box 310, Shippensburg, Pennsylvania 17257.  It is also
> bb>available from Messiah Biblical Institute Bookstore,  P.O. Box 7163,
> bb>Gaithersburg, Maryland 20898.  Call (301) 977-0156.
> 
>     Got it, read it, loved it and also highly recommend it!  BTW, aren't
> you the one that posted something a month or so ago about something
> Keith Intrater said?  I've read a couple of his books and I am *really*
> impressed with his insight.  He is one of Dan Juster's spiritual "off-
> spring" right? 

I probably was, although I don't remember it specifically.  Keith is my
friend.  I'm not sure it's accurate to call him Dan's "offspring", since
he knew the Lord when he came to Beth Messiah years ago, but he did receive
a lot of training and growing at BMC from Dan and others.  He's kind of like
Sha'ul, who came in late but LOOK OUT!  He was in Guatemala as a Marxist
revolutionary when he came to Yeshua, and he was convinced he was the only
Jew in the world who realized Yeshua is the Messiah.

If you can give me an e-mail address that actually works, I'll send you
some more stuff regarding Keith.

(Also just finished transcribing tapes from one of Dan
> Juster's sessions at the UMJC conference last month....which I hope he
> will write a book about: A Messianic Perspective on the History of the
> Church.  Really good stuff!)  There sure seems to be a surge happening
> on this aspect of the issue....no doubt in my mind but that God is on
> the move!

It's thrilling!  I'm still walking 2 feet off the ground from the home group
we had last night!

Did you happen to see Keith at the conference?

Shalom b'shem Yeshua haMashiach, Sar Shalom!

-- Bruce Tiffany
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Subject: Re: Clean And Unclean Un / Maccoby Book
Organization: University of Turku
Date: 29 Aug 92 19:28:09

In article <9208282121.AA14208@aplpy.jhuapl.edu> levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene) writes:
> The rest of the quotes (none from orthodox Jews, BTW) merely
> establish that Jesus was Jewish, but say nothing of the
> Pauline religion based upon Jesus being a God-man sent as 
> a human sacrifice to atone for sins.  

In 25 Aug 1992 you wrote:
>In article <1992Aug19.185536.16827@pbs.org> Bruce Tiffany writes:
...
>> Not among *Rabbinic* Jews, whose religion is characterized by the rejection
>> of Yeshua as Messiah.

>I keep hearing this accusation, but I never get any evidence.  Nu?

They say Judaism (Rabbinic) is based on Tanach, but yet it ignores the 
parts which talk about the Messiah being the Son of God and his death 
as an atonement for sins. Isn't that exactly a religion based on the 
rejection of Yeshua ?

Isaiah 9:5 (9:6): "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and
the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderfull
Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

Isaiah 53:4-6: "Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted.
But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punisment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are
healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his
own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all."

Zechariah 12:10, 13:1: "And I will pour out on the house of David and the
inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit (/the Spirit) of grace and supplication.
They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for
him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one
grieves for a firstborn son. ... On that day a fountain will be opened to
the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from
sin and impurity."

Robert, you've seen all this many times already; is there still something
you think that makes Yeshua a false messiah ? If not, why not join the
club ?

Yours, Laura
--
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans 
of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from ancient, from the days of eternity." - Micha 5:1

"Though the mountains be shaken and the hills be removed, yet my unfailing 
love for you will not be shaken nor my covenant of peace be removed,"
says the LORD, who has compassion on you.    - Yeshaya 54:10

met b'chet, CHAI B'Y'SHUA !
From: tom@tredysvr.Tredydev.Unisys.COM (Tom Albrecht)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Anti-Semitism charges
Date: 27 Aug 92 14:58:31 GMT
Organization: Unisys, Applied Technology, Malvern, PA

I've decided that I'm not going to directly respond to any more MJ charges
of anti-Semitism.  It is quite clear, at least to me, that the MJ
definition of anti-Semitism is very different from the dictionary
definition, or the defintion used by most rational folks.  When groups like
the MJs can  twist and distort the meaning of words to suit their own
purposes, and be successful about it, we have arrived at Orwell's vision in
_1984_.

Rabid MJs in this newsgroup apparently are using the word "anti-Semite" in
much the same way radical homosexuals use the word "homophobic."  Their
intention is not to enlighten and encourage discussion, but to crush
dissent at all costs.  It is a political tactic unbecoming a Christian.  

I have given what I believe to be cogent biblical reasoning for my position
vis a vis Jews and the nation of Israel.  I have been pleased with some of
the discussion in this newsgroup over some of my ideas.  It has helped me
to grow and to refine my thinking in this area.  But I have been dismayed
by the lack of biblical arguments coming from certain MJs in the group. 
While crying long and loud about my anti-Semitism, they have utterly failed
to show what specifically I have said that is anti-Semitic from the
Scriptures.  As I said in the past, the charge of anti-Semitism is raised
entirely because some MJs and I disagree over the matters like whether the
original church should have retained a Jewish distinctive, and over the
future of the nation of Israel, strictly theological issues.

Now we have a new group of folks in a.m.  Donna D'Iorio suggested in her
first series of post that she would like honest dialog with me about some
issues.  I was encouraged even though her inital message was somewhat harsh
in approach.  I figured it was just her way of saying "hi."  I sent her
private email to clarify some points before a public discussion ensued. 
But quickly another oldtimer who loves to use the "A" word warned Donna of
my anti-Semitism.  Donna responded by jumping on the namecalling bandwagon,
announcing that she knew all about my "theology," when in reality she knew
nothing about my specific views when she made that statement.  Apparently
the Nineth Commandment has become inoperative for some Messianic Jews.

Anyway, like Dickens wrote, it's been the best of times and worst of times.
I can deal with charges that are based on nothing more that someone's
quaint notions of eschatological correctness.  I'm not intimidated by the
nouveau thology of Messianic Judaism.  If it's real it will last until
Christ returns.  If it isn't then it will quickly fade from the Christian
scene as it's adherents find their way into more orthodox Christian
denominations.  But I see no further usefulness in direct responses on my
part.  If you want to discuss the Bible, let's discuss the Bible and stop
with the hatemongering.

-- 
Tom Albrecht
From: tom@tredysvr.Tredydev.Unisys.COM (Tom Albrecht)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Let's get the facts straight
Date: 1 Sep 92 17:29:01 GMT
Organization: Unisys, Applied Technology, Malvern, PA

[I'll keep my comments to a minimum.]

Harvey Smith writes:
>
>Lets just recap a little:  You stated that we in the UMJC had formed a 
>strictly Jewish denomination.  ...

I never wrote such a thing.  I stated that the UMJC was a Christian
denomination, not unlike the Southern Baptists.  As I understand things,
you have an official doctrinal statement (thoroughly Christian, not Jewish)
that UMJC-affiliated congregation must subscribe to.  You offered no
evidence to the contrary.

You claim to be an AoG minister, but is your congregation OFFICIALLY
considered part of the AoG?  The AoG is officially dispensational
premillennial.  Do you, as a member of the UMJC, also subscribe to
dispensational premillennialism?

>                               When told that we were only and umbrella 
>organization and that we related to many different denominations, you just 
>got quiet, and said nothing.

Silence?  I asked you specifically which denominations officially come
under the "umbrella" of the UMJC?  I would still like to see a specific
list of these organizations and denominations.  Unless I missed your message
in response, the silence was from your end, not mine.

>You accused us of perverted doctrine.  When i published our doctrinal 
>statement again you remained quiet.  

No, I never said your official denominational doctrine was "perverted." I
said that some of the views expressed by some MJs in this forum are
unorthodox and unbiblical.  I outlined those items in several messages.

>You accused us of being a cult, like the JW's etc, and again you are 
>slandering us, but we just keep going on.

Untrue.  I never stated the MJs were a cult like the JWs.  I said you have
some restorationist theories that appear similar to JW and Mormon
theories.

-- 
Tom Albrecht
From: dsvoss@isr.harvard.edu (Steve Voss)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Last names
Date: 26 Aug 92 22:34:06 GMT
Distribution: alt.feminism
Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, MA

I have a question for any "feminists" out there, if there really are
any.  (I've mostly been reading anti-feminists.)  Let's assume a man
and a woman have gotten married, and the women kept her last name (i.e.
no hyphenation).  Then they start having children.  What should the
children's last names be?  If you do that hyphenation stuff, then you
burden them with really long last names and just force the decision
down one generation as to whether patrilineal or matrilinial patterns
will be embraced.  If you work out some random system or give the boys
the father's name and the girls the mother's name, then you subject them
to teasing about being "bastards."  And if you arbitrarily choose one
last name over the other, then you either are conforming to the
current paternalistic system or you are "making a statement" at the
expense of the feelings of the child's paternal grandparents.
Anyone have a solution?

Steve
From: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: What's the purpose here?
Date: 27 Aug 92 11:09:25
Organization: Natural Language Incorporated
	<1992Aug24.000255.10003@news.acns.nwu.edu> <1bbnqca.tyger@netcom.com>
	<MUFFY.92Aug26180417@remarque.berkeley.edu>
	<1992Aug27.150617.23655@javelin.sim.es.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
In-reply-to: biesel@javelin.sim.es.com's message of Thu, 27 Aug 1992 15:06:17 GMT

In article <1992Aug27.150617.23655@javelin.sim.es.com> biesel@javelin.sim.es.com (Heiner Biesel) writes:
> Every censor everywhere justifies his or her actions as being in the
> best interest of society, and claims to be doing so for largely
> selfless reasons. Most censors probably truly believe that this is true,

Umm...actually, I don't claim that my actions are *good* for anyone, and
I am *definitely* not acting "selflessly" - I never do.  (In fact, I
posted to this effect on soc.feminism at one point recently.)

> at least of themselves. Nevertheless, censorship is power; regardless
> of how it is exercised, it will be resented. Therefore it should be
> wielded with velvet gloves, stealthily, and minimally.

Now, this is a very interesting thing.  I feel exactly the opposite.  I
would be *very* suspicious of "stealthy" censorship.  I would much
rather know exactly what is going on than have someone working
"stealthily."

> For a moderator
> to post, especially in rebuttal of posts she so magnanimously passed
> in the first place,

*grin*...it is not "magnanimous" to do the job that you agreed to do.
Do you feel "magnanimous" for doing whatever it is that you do for your
company?

[posting]
> is sheer folly, because it *has* to rankle those
> who care about the issue of censorship.

You seem to feel that moderation is censorship.  In that case, it is not
equally censorship whether or not I post?  I posted the same sort and
quantity of articles *before* I was a moderator.  If I stop being a
moderator, my posts will still be written and go through the other
moderators and be posted or not, as appropriate.  Although no one seems
to understand this, several of my posts have also been rejected (both
before and after I was a moderator) for exactly the same sorts of
reasons as anyone else's.

Muffy
--

Muffy Barkocy | muffy@mica.berkeley.edu | wi.4636@wizvax.methuen.ma.us
~Little round planet/in a big universe/sometimes it looks blessed/
 sometimes it looks cursed/Depends on what you look at, obviously/
 But even more it depends on the way that you see~ - Bruce Cockburn