HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mcovingt@athena.cs.uga.edu (Michael A. Covington)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,sci.lang
Subject: Re: Can I axe you a question?
Date: 18 Aug 92 17:47:18 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens

In article <1992Aug18.033717.13510@news.columbia.edu> gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Gabe M Wiener) writes:

>I really have to wonder if the "axe" in Black English Vernacular is really
>derived from _acsian_ or if it's just laziness in pronouncing "ask."

You can call it "laziness" if you want, but that's rather insulting, and
anyhow, why should "laziness" make people prefer to pronounce /ks#/
instead of /sk#/?

That's where phonotactics comes in.


-- 
+ Michael Covington - Artificial Intelligence Programs - U of Georgia - USA 
+ Unless otherwise noted, these are private opinions, not official statements.
+ VOTE NO GEORGIA LOTTERY - don't tie education to an unpredictable income.
From: goer@quads.uchicago.edu (Richard L. Goerwitz)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Less versus Fewer: Victory at NPR!
Date: 18 Aug 92 16:34:33 GMT
Reply-To: goer@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations

thayes@desire.wright.edu writes:
>
>> Actually, when I'm feeling lonely and isolated in my brilliance, I enjoy
>> looking down on the poor fools who aren't privy to the mysteries of the
>> cultured dialects of English (which are, after all, closer to that Pla-
>> tonic ideal of language we all know exists somewhere it the higher realms).
>> I vote that we just let the checkout lines be, and keep it our little secret.
>          !!!!!!!!!                                         !!!!!
>
>Why Richard, who *are* these "we" & "our" you refer to?

This was a mean-spirited piece of sarcasm, and I'm sorry I posted it.  I
was just getting a bit annoyed at the spurious elitism manifest in a lot of
recent postings.  All too often people err either in denying the importance
of a standard communication medium, or in thinking that this expediency
somehow imparts to them "culture" or intellectual superiority.  Do you think
I should have added smileys?

-- 

   -Richard L. Goerwitz              goer%midway@uchicago.bitnet
   goer@midway.uchicago.edu          rutgers!oddjob!ellis!goer
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english

segr@nessie.mcc.ac.uk (Simon Read) writes:

>First of all let's get the thorny issue of a definition for "rational
>thought" out of the way. I'm not going to propose one as I've no idea
>where to start. An interesting definition in Douglas Hofstadter's
>book "The Mind's I [sic]" is in terms of symbolic reasoning, and
>attributes rational thought to ant colonies (though not to the
>individual ants). So there!
>
>Simon Read

As the original poster, I'm willing to stipulate this as a good
definition for the purposes of this discussion.  I don't want to get
sidetracked onto a different thread.  Besides, it compensates very
nicely for my poor wording of the question.

John Fisher at Hewlett-Packard |
in Santa Clara, CA             |  Not one shred of evidence supports the
fish@hpscit.hp.com             |  notion that life is serious.
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: bf455@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bonita Kale)
Subject: Re: Use of Myself (was Re: Use of 'I' and 'me')
Reply-To: bf455@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bonita Kale)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 11:01:34 GMT


In a previous article, dian@arpeggio.gg.caltech.edu (Dian  De Sha) says:

>Is anyone else bugged by the phrasing that leads to "Please mail it to myself,"
>or "give it to myself"?  Somehow, I see a difference between telling myself
>something (maybe I am telling _my_ _self_ something?) and exhorting someone
>else to do/send/tell something to "myself." 
>
>Is it a regional difference?  Do you want people to give things to "you," or
>to "yourself"?


Never heard it and I hope I never do.  On the other hand, if I did, I might
immediately forget it, assuming it to be an error.  Mail to me, please, not
to myself or I.

Now, if -I- were mailing it to myself, that would be different.

Bonita Kale
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Less versus Fewer... time to give up?
From: thayes@desire.wright.edu
Date: 13 Aug 92 12:09:01 EST
Organization: Wright State University 


In article <Bsvv1C.EwF@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, 
shair@barolo.cso.uiuc.edu (Bob Shair) writes:
> Is it time to give up on the distinction between "less" and "fewer?"

Of course not.  Now go to the supermarket, buy some beer, and
stand in the queue for "10 or less items."

But that may not explain why you *really* think the following is wrong:

>     BUSINESS SOLUTIONS                                                 
> 
>     The PS/2 8511 Color Display has far less components than the IBM      
>     8512, contributing to higher reliability for the customer.

It could be that the components themselves in the PS/2 8511 are *lesser*
components.  That this may cause fears that the AdverBlurb is misleading
is quite a separate issue from the # of parts!

-----ted hayes
From: dian@druggist.gg.caltech.edu (Dian  De Sha)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Less versus Fewer: Victory?
Date: 19 Aug 92 21:42:01 GMT
Distribution: all
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena

In <1992Aug19.180224.18049@Princeton.EDU> roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:

>In article <1992Aug19.092539.3607@desire.wright.edu> 
>thayes@desire.wright.edu writes:
>>In article <1992Aug18.165856.13240@Princeton.EDU>, 
>>roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:
>>> In article <1992Aug18.163433.6659@midway.uchicago.edu> 
>>goer@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>>>thayes@desire.wright.edu writes:

>>but on the other you want to make sure we toe the rules you seem partial to. 
                                            ^^^

[Sorry not to omit more, but I lose track of whose >> is whose]

Interesting mixture here.  I have always been curious (sorry if it has already
been hashed out in this group) whether this is from "tow the line," as in 
pulling a barge along, or "toe the line," as in everyone getting themselves 
aligned so that a race can start fairly.  It's one of those that you hear
and hear, and then wonder how to spell, and what it came from.

Any definitive explanations out there?
From: tony@iti.org (Anthony Skjellum)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: total PC for English
Summary: well, how do we redo English to get rid of 'man', 'son' etc :-)
Keywords: gender, personal pronouns
Date: 23 Aug 92 04:15:27 GMT

My friends and I have followed the removal of 'him', 'his', 'he', 'man',
'son' from terminology with great interest.

I accept that there is a reasonable basis for 'his and hers' or 'he and she'.
I wonder how we are going to fix words like 

	manpower, manyear, chairman

Here's why:  We change 'man' to 'person.'  Person contains 'son'.
So, what do we end up with?  perpower, peryears, chairper (chair
is a piece of furniture)?

Also, I need to rewrite all the words in the dictionary like manual,
mandible, amanuensis, etc.  What should we do?  Is it OK if the
roots don't mean 'man' even if they sound like it?

Ideas?
- Tony Skjellum


--
 	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.	.      .
"They also serve who only stand and wait." - J. Milton

Anthony Skjellum, LLNL, (510)422-1161; FAX: (510)423-2993; tony@helios.llnl.gov
From: cochran@spam.rtp.dg.com (A. Jing Hippy)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Puns
Date: 17 Aug 92 14:50:56 GMT
Organization: A Suffusion of Yellow

In article <pjh.714048816@nessi>, pjh@eng.cam.ac.uk (Philippa Hogben) writes:
|> 
|>>In article <1992Aug15.040735.26043@dg-rtp.dg.com>, cochran@spam.rtp.dg.com (A. Jing Hippy) writes:
|>>> pjh@eng.cam.ac.uk (Philippa Hogben) writes: 
|>>> 
|>>>Gosh, Phillipa (may I call you Phillipa?), *I* sort of took the question
|>>>as a joke that was a reflection of the inanity of the whole discussion that 
|>>>*has* been going on for the past week.  I mean, the guy even used the
|>>>term "pundette" (which started the whole mess) to show how ludicrous it all 
|>>>is.  I just don't see how any question about the proper feminine form of a 
|>>>word like "punster" could be serious.
|> 
|> Oh dear, crawl, crawl. I appear to have put my foot in it somewhat. I
|> must confess that I have missed most of the beginning and the middle
|> of the thread so I offer a most abject apology if I overreacted. May I
|> be allowed back into the "brotherhood" of a.e.u. again.... please?

I didn't think there was any harm done.  My post was intended to point out
that *I* might have misread it and that you were reacting properly.  Looking
back, I can see that I didn't do a very good job of implying that.

|> BTW, A. Jing Hippy(*) you are welcome to call me Philippa, but please,
|> please, please _don't_ call me Phillipa. Yup, yet another thing I am
|> overly fussy about.
|> [Written with toungue most firmly in cheek]

:-)
Now it's my turn to apologize.  I had your name right there in front of
me and *still* managed to botch it up.  You have every right to expect your
name to be spelled properly.  I guess I was just hung up in Phillipians 
or something with all of this Bible/God/Atheist/Agnostic/quote/misquote
traffic in this group.  Sorry 'bout that.

|> * 1) I hope I hope got the number of follow-ups correct here and am
|>      addressing the correct person.

You are.

|>   2) Sorry if this appears overly formal but I am unsure from this
|>      what you would normally like to be called.

I tossed that name in as a joke in another group when there was a discussion
going on about music and practices of the '60's, and the folks that seemed
to still be stuck there.  I'm one of them.  The inhabitants of that group
began referring to and addressing me as "Jing", so it sorta stuck.  I probably
respond best to "Dave" though.

+--------------------------------------------------+
|Dave Cochran, Data General Corporation, RTP, NC   |
|cochran@dg-rtp.dg.com                             |
+--------------------------------------------------+
|Despite decades of market research, markets       |
|proliferate and there's no cure in sight.         |
+--------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Can I axe you a question?
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 16:42:15 GMT

In article <86735@netnews.upenn.edu> crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu (Lauren L. Crawford) writes:
>Re: less and fewer.

>My UPI style guide puts it this way:

>"In general, use fewer for individual items, less for bulk or quantity.

>Wrong:  The trend is toward more machines and less people. (People, in this
>case, refers to individuals.)

Yet this usage has been found among the best speakers and writers for
centuries.  

UPI can make any rules it wishes for its writers; that's fine with me.
But this doesn't represent the outcome of a study of the language or
anything.

>Wrong:  She was fewer than 60 years old. (Years, in this instance, refers
>to a period of time, not individual years.)

"not a penny less" gets this explanation into trouble.

>Right:  Not fewer than 10 applicants called. (Individuals.)

Stilted.  Try speaking this!

>Right:  I had less than $50 in my pocket. (An amount.) But: I had fewer
>than two $1 bills in my pocket. (Individual items.)"

>The AP style guide says basically the same thing.

OK: now we know how to write for a wire service.  But this is not to be
confused with a description of, or a prescription for, general English
usage at any level.

These guides are mainly useful to editors, as they make their work
easier and more regular.

Roger

Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: sds@henry.ece.cmu.edu (Sherwood Daniel Silliman)
Subject: "Grammar"
Organization: Electrical and Computer Engineering, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 05:53:12 GMT


In the debate about "good grammar" referring really to appropriate style,
usage, et cetera, and not really a grammar of the English language,
it seems to me that this sense of the word "grammar" is well enough
understood to become a valid meaning for this expression.


-- 
Sherwood D. Silliman         "When I give food to the poor, they call me a
                              saint.  When I ask why the poor have no food,
                              they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara
From: euaneg@eua.ericsson.se (Nils-Erik.Gustafsson)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: What ~did~ Don Quixote sit on?
Date: 19 Aug 92 10:12:51 GMT
Organization: Ellemtel Telecom Systems Labs, Stockholm, Sweden

tchrist@convex.COM (Tom Christiansen) writes:

>I believe you've find that Don Quixote sat upon his ass, but
>rode upon Rosinante, a horse -- mangy, yes, but still a horse.

Yes, from sp. rocin-ante, a jade previously.
And Sancho Panza's donkey was called 'Dapple'.

However, when digging out the record I quoted
from memory a number of follow-ups ago, this
is the exact wording of the broadcast:

"And as his trusted little donkey
 carried Don Quixote up the road,
 he could see the gates of the city ahead.
 Don Quixote's excitement rose as he contemplated
 the nightly adventures that awaited him.

 I see our time is running out, and there
 we leave don Quixote sitting on his ass
 until tomorrow at the same time."

(From Pardon my Blooper - Vol. 1, Jubilee 1, 1954,
 collected & edited by Kermit Schafer)

Any Cervantes scholars out there? Did Quixote
start his journey on a donkey before upgrading 
to Rosinante, or did the horse break down?

Nils-Erik
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: "Grammar"
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 20:37:06 GMT

In article <1992Aug21.190407.27652@news.columbia.edu> gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Gabe M Wiener) writes:
>In article <1992Aug21.161730.9265@Princeton.EDU> roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:

>>>I would not even on a golf course [actually, I haven't been on one
>>>for years ... but I assume I could imagine self in a public house
>>>instead] nor in a car [in my Golf, for instance] resort to a
>>>language that is - in my humble ears - 'wrong' or 'ungrammatical'.

>>Neither would I.  

>[stuff about informal speech deleted]

>>Well, of course!  So do I, and so does my colleague.  Often, however, he
>>still makes the errors, despite trying not to.
>		 ^^^^^^
>Funny how you're calling them errors now.  I'm so glad you agree.

Gabe, please read *before* you delete.  They're errors in some contexts,
and not in others.  In the context of formal speech, yes.  In colloquial
speech, no.

>Many, myself included, would use colloquial or informal expressions,
>but wouldn't violate grammatical rules in doing so.  "Me and my friends"
>would always be an error, no matter how informal the circumstances, at
>least in my idiolect.

Fine.  Don't complain about the idiolects of others, though.  If you
wish to argue from that level, you will soon be confronted with the
painful realization that there are as many grammars as idiolects!  We
all internalize slightly different sets of rules, slightly different
views of language structure.

Roger
From: slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com (Mark Slagle)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Solutions (was Re: Less versus Fewer... time to give up?)
Date: 13 Aug 92 19:16:34 GMT
Reply-To: slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com
Organization: You wouldn't ask this if you'd seen my desk.
In-reply-to: michaeln@cs.uq.oz.au's message of 13 Aug 92 12:07:52 GMT

In article <9800@uqcspe.cs.uq.oz.au>, michaeln@cs.uq.oz.au (Bunweasel) writes:

> As the GM at a company I was working for pointed out about
> the time it became trendy to sell "Total Business Solutions",
> a business requirement is not a problem, therefore doesn't
> need to be solved, it needs to be fulfilled. Unfortunately,
> "Business Fulfillments" would only appeal to New Age clients.

That's a different department.  It's the one where they
collect from the deadbeats who won't pay up what they owe.
--
----
Mark E. Slagle                                 PO Box 61059
slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com                       Sunnyvale, CA   94088
408-756-0895                                   USA
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: georgere@microsoft.com (George V. Reilly)
Subject: Re: Meaning of gunder, eejit
Date: 11 Aug 92 20:05:49 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation
Keywords: Irish-English, vocabulary

dewi@bnr.ca (Dewi Williams) writes:
) In the play "The Communication Cord" by Brian Friel, which is
) set in present-day Ireland, two words are used which are not in
) my Concise OED:
)    verb:  to gunder
)    noun:  eejit
) What are their meanings? Are they specifcally Irish-English?

"Eejit" is a dialect form of "idiot", but both "idiot" and
"eejit" are in common use in Ireland.  I think "eejit" is
fairly specific to Ireland.  I know of some Americans who
use "idjit".

I have no idea what "to gunder" means.  Perhaps if you provided
some context, I might be able to guess.

One of my litmus tests for an English dictionary is to see if
the word "eejit" is defined.  So far, I haven't found a
dictionary that passes, which surprises me a little.  Any
dictionary that has pretensions to including the variety
of English spoken in Ireland should define "eejit."

) Incidentally, one of the characters says "Amn't I?" rather than
) "Aren't I?", which was the subject of another thread in this group.

This is quite common in Ireland.  I say it all the time.
________________
George V. Reilly   <GeorgeRe@Microsoft.Com>
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,sci.lang
From: JAREA@UKCC.UKY.EDU
Subject: Re: Can I axe you a (sikth) question?
    <2A8EE4FC.15085@orion.oac.uci.edu> 
    <1992Aug17.004116.42389@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> 
    <1992Aug18.033717.13510@news.columbia.edu> 
    <1992Aug18.141258.22338@dg-rtp.dg.com> <frank2.21@underdog.ee.wits.ac.za> 
    <5119@sersun1.essex.ac.uk> <maynor.714312243@Ra.MsState.Edu>
Organization: University of Kentucky
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 00:34:34 GMT

In article <maynor.714312243@Ra.MsState.Edu>
maynor@Ra.MsState.Edu (Natalie Maynor) writes:
 
>
>I'm trying to think whether I've ever heard anybody include the second [f]
>in "fifth."  So far, I've come up with one possible person:  a colleague
>of mine who seems to speak Broadcast English most of the time -- and is
>looked upon as rather odd as a result.  I'll listen more closely today.
>My reaction to hearing that second [f] pronounced (in normal conversation),
>at least in the U.S. South, would probably be that the speaker suffers from
>linguistic insecurity.
>--
>   Natalie (maynor@ra.msstate.edu)
I have always pronounced the second [f] in 'fifth', and would find it odd
to do otherwise.  It would, of course, be silly to pronounch the following
interdental fricative.  Thus I say [fIf grejd], i.e. 'fifth grade'.
 
Actually I also don't like clams.
 
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: stu5s14@bcrka287.bnr.ca (James Cherry)
Subject: Question about ASCII IPA
Originator: stu5s14@bcrka287
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 20:31:14 GMT

I noticed in Tom Christiansen's post the following IPA symbols and his
descriptions of them:

    F) voiceless bilabial fricative
    M) labio-dental nasal
    V) voiced bilabial fricative

Can someone give me examples of English words that these sounds are found
in?  Because, I keep wondering:  what the hell is a voiceless, bilabial
fricative?  The only sound I make trying to do this is a blowing sound
that ends up blowing the front of my hair upwards (you know, that impatient
gesture people sometimes make when they extend their bottom lip and blow).

And, a labio-dental nasal sounds like a V to me.  And "voiced, bilabial
fricative"?  Excuse me?  I don't understand.

-- 
James A. Cherry                                   Bell Northern Research Inc.
"Can't you little sheep think for yourselves?!" - The Hipster   (613)763-3019
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: sav@nanette.sni.de (Dr.Savory)
Subject: Re: Coke brings back ancestors ...
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 10:08:56 GMT
Organization: Siemens Nixdorf Info.Sys. AG, Paderborn, Germany



Well, Rolls-Royce tried to sell their "Silver Mist" in germany
without realising that "Mist" means an(im)al-shit.

Ciao,
     Ctyapt Cabopu      (.sig in russian, today       ;)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: eepjm@wombat.newcastle.edu.au (Peter Moylan)
Subject: Re: Gender Benders!
Organization: University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 03:28:52 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.025020.17356@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, jcopelan@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (James c Copeland) writes:
> All of this gender bender stuff has me asking the following question:
> Don't you hate it when people use the words "gender" and "sex" interchangably?
> One example is when filling out forms which ask for your gender instead of
> your sex.

It annoys me, too, but it's a lost cause.  I fill out those forms by
writing something like "meaningless question; sex: male", but that's
merely for my private satisfaction.  The people who designed the
forms don't know what I'm talking about.

(If I am feeling irritable, a condition often brought about by
having to fill in pointless questionnaires, then I might instead write
something like "I am not required to answer this question, and it
is illegal for you to ask it.")

To a growing number of people, "sex" refers _only_ to copulation and
related activities.  That interpretation is so widespread that the
original meaning of the word is probably going to be lost.

Peter
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: TSOS@uni-duesseldorf.de (Detlef Lannert)
Subject: Re: Puns
Organization: Universitaetsrechenzentrum, Heinrich-Heine-Universitaet, Duesseldorf
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 09:13:45 GMT

In article <pjh.713703937@nessi> pjh@eng.cam.ac.uk (Philippa Hogben) writes:

>BTW I am well known around here for being a punster - I suppose the
                                             ^^^^^^^
>people I spoke to were "expecting" it to be a pun.

Could anybody help me with the correct female form of "punster" -
is it "punstress" (or "pun-stress"), or perhaps "pundette"?


--
Detlef Lannert      DC3EK      E-Mail: tsos@rz.uni-duesseldorf.de
"Ab morgen wird gearbeitet."
From: bwalsh@math.rutgers.edu (Bertram Walsh)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: use of generic terms
Date: 19 Aug 92 11:43:03 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

>>>So, if you can use `you guys,' can you use it for males only, males and
>>>females, and, finally, females only?

'You guys' has been used in the upper US Midwest to denote (or
address) groups of persons of either or both sexes since time
immemorial, i.e., since at least the early 1940s.

>I think y'all is a beautiful solution to this problem, and I'm even a
>Yankee.

Gee, on me "y'all" has an effect equivalent to that of the fingernails
scraped against the blackboard.

Bertram Walsh  Mathematics Dep't  Rutgers University New Brunswick NJ 08903
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english