Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
From: liuyh@vis.toronto.edu (Yuanhui Liu)
Subject: Re: The romantic Tang dynasty (was Re: big lie)
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Toronto
Distribution: na
Date: 17 Dec 92 16:48:53 GMT

In article <1gnls4INN6d@liverbug.hsc.usc.edu> jamesou@liverbug.hsc.usc.edu (James Ou) writes:
>In <92Dec15.143109est.56@orasis.vis.toronto.edu>, liuyh@vis.toronto.edu
>(Yuanhui Liu) writes:
>
>>In article <1ggkj6INN8us@liverbug.hsc.usc.edu> jamesou@liverbug.hsc.usc.edu (James Ou) writes:
>>>(About Li Shi-min).....    Later on, his grandson Rui4 Zong1 with the
>>			     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>help of Li3 Long2 Ji1 again initiated a coup to take the emperor
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>position. LSM's father, however, retired voluntarily.
>>					  ^^^^^^^^^^^
>>well, anybody smart would retire "voluntarily" in his situation.
>
>There was no hard feeling between Li3 Yuan1 and Li3 Shi4 Min2
>after the retirement of Li3 Yuan1. In fact, Li Yuan had been

yes, Li3 Yuan1 knew that his son Li3 Shi4 Min2 loves him, although
sometime he overacts a bit in competition with Li3 Jian4 Chen2.  
but with "Xuan2 Wu3 Men2 Zi1 Bian4", all the officials & ministers
are now on Li3 Shi4 Min2's side and Li3 Yuan1 knows hanging in
on as Emperor is quite pointless, the truth is, LI3 Shi4 Min4
done 90% work setting up the Dynasty, and Li3 Yuan1 was just lucky
to be his father.  

>talking about retirement before the incident of Xuan2 Wu3 Men2
>took place. Li3 Yuan1 actually enjoyed the retirement. This is
>similar to the retirement of Rui4 Zong1 who said that he could
>not care less being an emperor. Rui4 Zong1 did not want to be an
>emperor again.
>
>>So, out of the 4 sons of Wu3 Ze2 Tian1 and Gao1 zong1 Li3 Zhi4,
>>the first two had been crown princes but was ousted and basically
>>died in their mother's hand,
>
>Yes, in a plot to take over the empress position, Wu3 also killed
>her own new born daughter and blamed the empress as the murderer.
>What a mother! :-)
>
true. But than again, lots of Emperors killed their own born,
involved in murder & treachery in order to gain power or the throne.   
and that's "Jun1 Yao4 Cheng2 Si3, Cheng2 Bu4 De2 Du4 Si3", and
their devine right.  when the only Women Emperor in Chinese history
did the same kind of deeds, all the conficus scholars and defenders
of morality threw the arms in air cry foul and in shock, saying
it's a great crime, the evilest thing on earth ..., etc, what
a bunch of hypocrites!  These "defenders of morality" screwed
as hard as Wu3 with as many people at the same old age, the
only difference is they were *men*, so that's okay.

 
>>it was Yin Zong, Rui Zong, and then
>>Wu3 Ze2 Tian named herself Empress rename the empire to "Zhou",
>>Yin Zong restored as crown prince thanks to Di2 Ren2 Jie2's advice
>>to the Empress,
>
>Yes, Zhong1 Zong (not *Yin* Zong) restored the Tang dynasty. Wu3

right, i knew that, why did i write Yin Zong, i get it, i got
it mixed up with the other "Two-timer" Emperor of Ming Dynasty, 
Ming Yin zong, which was in the same stupidity class as 
Tang2 Zhong1 Zong.  ;-)

>was once considering naming her nephew as the successor of the
>throne, but the advice from Di2 changer her mind. Di2 said, "Is
>your son or your nephew more closely related to you?"
>
and one sentence from Di2 retored the court of Tang.  

>> Rui Zong abdicted to Xuan Zong
>>but was persuaded by his sister to retain some final say in state matters,
>>and Li3 Long2 Ji1 had to do a semi-coup(can't be a total coup since
>>he's already the Emperor ;->) two years later against his powerful
>>aunt(Wu's daughter) and her allies, to gain full authority as Emperor
>
>Yes, the aunt was "Tai4 Ping2 Gong1 Zhu3". She was quite a lady. :-)
>
afterall, she's a daughter of Wu3, that means she's just much smarter
than all her brothers.  ;->  Did she get banished to the Eastern
Capitol Luo4 Yang2 at the end?  

actually , Xuan2 Zong1 should thank her, 'cause she and her allies
spread the rumor that "according to the stars, there would be
a sudden change in ruler of the Empire",  it was meant to let Rui4 Zong1
suspect his son is planing a "Xuan2 Wu3 Men2" style coup, but
it backfired, Rui4 Zong1 totally believed it, and decided to obey
the "wish of heaven" and yielded his throne to his son ...
Princess Tai4 Ping2 was totally totally pissed of course ... :->  

>>early & mid Tang court affair was a living soap-opera, it got
>>everything, beautiful & ambitious women, scandleous affairs,
>>lovers, love & hates, power plays, coups, someone should make a
>>TV series and call it "Dynasty".  ;->
>
>That is correct. Wu3, as the woman emperor, had intimate
>relationship with several guys (Mian4[face] Shou3[head]). Wu3
>dressed very well and looked pretty even when she was old. It is
>amazing that at the time when Zhang1 Chang1 Zong1 and Zhang Yi4
>Zhi1 brothers were called into the palace to "serve" Wu3, Wu3
>was already over seventy years old. This is called "Ren2 Lao3
>Zhi4 Bu4 Lao3" (although one is old, one still has a young heart). :-) :-)
>
i know it's unbelieveable, just like Liz Taylor.  ;->  

well, before the Zhang1 brothers, do you know the story
of "Fu3 Guo2 Da4 Jiang1 Jun1" ex-monk Xue1 Huai2 Yi4?  
he was such a lover wu3 named him "Great General" ;->
the historian commentators often comment on that:
"She ought to know the battle of "the flesh" is kinda different
than the battle of arms & weapons", she even let him
lead an army against invading West Tu2Jie2 once, you have only
one chance to guess the result of the campiagn.  ;->
(everybody threw their armors & weapons and ran away while
 still a couple hundred Li3 away from Tu2Jie2's advance
 guards)

Xue1 also screwed around the capitol in name of "preaching
Buddhism", even lots of noble & rich wives and daughters
became his victim.  But finally Wu3 was getting tired of
him, but he was the jealous type, like fell in a vingear jar
or something, finally the other lovers of Wu3 and some
Eunches was directed to trick Xue1 into the palace and
leaving his bodyguards behind by telling him he's in Wu3's
favor again, and killed him.  
 
After that lots of men gets promoted to high positions
because of their techniques in bed.  ;->  and the Zhang
brothers were the most famous and promoted higher than
anyone else.  ;->  

>Today, we often call adult entertainment "Chun1 Gong1" (Spring
>palace). This phrase also came from Wu3 Ze2 Tian1. When Xu2 Jing4
>Ye4 rebelled, Luo4 Bin1 Wang2 wrote an article to denounce Wu3.
>In that article (Tao3 Wu3 Hou4 Xi2), Luo4 said that Wu3, as one
>of the concubines of the emperor, fooled around with the then
>prince Li3 Zhi4. The idiom used was "Hui4[dirty] Luan4[mess]
>Chun1 Gong1" (messed up the Spring Palace). In Tang dynasty, the
>palace where the prince (Tai4 Zi3) lived was called Spring
>Palace.
>

she did, and Tai4 Zong1 realized the danger of Wu3 and give
her the choice to become a nun at "Bai2 Ma3 Si4"(white horse temple
-- where she met Xue1 Huai2 Yi4 and fooled around when nothing better
had come her way) in Luo4 Yang2, and the unspoken other choice was 
she's going to die with Tai Zong1, Wu3 was smart, she cut her hair and 
became a buddhist nun and lived.  Tai4 Zong1 felt safe on his death
bed -- why would his son go to Luo4 Yang2 from Chang2 An1 just to have 
sex with a nun with no hair?  it's not like there's no women in 
Chang An, and the crown prince is happily married, and there's thousands of
other beautiful women in the Tang court. and what are the chances she 
came back to the center of power and seize it?  ;->  And That turns out
the greatest mis-calculation of the century.  

>Oh, Tang, what a romantic dynasty. :-) :-)
>
>
>P.S. The general who led the Tang troops to fight Arabs (Da4
>Shi2) was Gao1 Xian1 Zhi1. This event was discussed in a separate
>article of yours.
>


Gao1 Xian1 Zhi1 wasn't bad as a general at all, he won lots of
battles, but too bad he screwed up against Da4 Shi2 and later
totally screwed up and got killed at Tong2 Guan1.  Xuan2 zong1
obviously greated overrated him as a military expert, but i guess 
there always some luck involved in war.   
From: ding@hpsmtc1.cup.hp.com (Ignatius Ding)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 20:59:08 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Greeting Card w/ One or More Signatures to the Prisoners of Conscience
Organization: Hewlett Packard, Cupertino