From: hrubin@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Subject: Re: Conversion Question
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 02:21:23 GMT

In article <1992Nov19.172313.2657@shearson.com> esafern@shearson.com writes:
>In article 5L2@mentor.cc.purdue.edu, hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes:
>...
>(Material deleted)
>...


>>I will not even go along with this statement.  There are a few situations in
>>which the Orthodox will permit what I, a Reform Jew, will not permit.  In
>>particular, I read the Shabbath commandment in such a way that the "Shabbos
>>Goy" practice of the stetl is in direct contradiction to it.  Now SOMETHING
>>had to be done in that climate, but not that!  There are other interpretations
>>on this commandment which I will observe, but the Orthodox claim does not 
>>violate it.

>Herman,

>	You have said this before.  If I understand you, you do not believe in
>asking a Goy to do something for you which you are forbidden to do yourself.

>	So, asking a goy to wax the floors in the synagogue (on Sabbath) would 
>not be permitted.  Fair enough.

>	I assume that you define Sabbath class forbidden work as performing your
>regular every-day job, say, putting on a coat and tie and taking a twelve hour
>shift as a nuclear plant technician.

>	Well, for God's sake, how can a modern country (or any country) run
>with NO ONE working on Saturday?

It cannot, nor could even any strictly Jewish country.  It is permitted to
have enough watchmen to guard the nomad's flocks from wild beasts.  It is
permitted for soldiers and policemen and firemen to be available.

Even in Talmudic times, it was permitted for those watching for the new
moon, before the calendar became established, to light signal fires on
the Sabbath.

>	Even if you permit the nuclear plant example (for a goy) because of
>threat to life, I can easily think of an example where the only loss is
>monetary - say, a guard posted for a warehouse owned by a Jew.

>	How about an alarm system on your house?  If it goes off, the police
>respond.  Orthodox rely on the assumption that in a majority Non-Jewish
>country, the policemen responding will probably be Non-Jews.  What will you
>do when they arrive at your house?  Tell them not to arrest the burglar???

So what would you do in a Jewish country?  I doubt that the Israelis use
goyim for these purposes.  Asking less Orthodox Jews to work is in my view
more serious than not doing it yourself; the commandment states "nor the
stranger within thy gates."  And the text also points out that "ye were
strangers in the land of Egypt."

>	Remember, if a risk to people's lives is not involved, Orthodox DO NOT
>allow violation of the Sabbath by Jews.  Damage to or loss of property doen't 
>count.

Damage to property DOES count.  Do you think that in any of the Jewish
kingdoms, even the most observant, that flocks and herds were not watched
on the Sabbath?  Or that fires in dwellings or storehouses were not 
extinguished?  Or that the walls of the cities were not manned to warn
of marauders?  There have always been enough miscreants that the country
or city would not have survived.
w

-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@snap.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!snap.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
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