HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cherry@access.digex.com (Cherry Poptart)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Police Story (was Re: Summary: Concealed Carry...)
Date: 11 Sep 92 14:05:07 GMT
Organization: Express Access Public Access UNIX, Greenbelt, Maryland USA

In article <1992Sep10.081449.10066@ke4zv.uucp> ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman) writes:
#In article <tssn#gl.damiel@netcom.com> damiel@netcom.com (Paul Theodoropoulos) writes:
##
##now THAT'S a laugh. if you believe the concussion really knocked him down, 
##and not the *psychological response* to the concussive blast, i have some
##*gauranteed* one-shot-stop ammo i'd like to sell you.... 
#
#Indeed, I'm sure it was the startle factor of the very loud blast in
#the confined space that caused him to dive flat. I'm just repeating
#the story as told to me. It probably did look like he was blasted
#down.
#
#Frankly I'm surprised that no one has commented on how foolish and
#dangerous it was to fire that "warning" shot in an urban neighborhood.
#If I'd been in charge of that department, my friend would be driving
#a desk at best. As it was, he was lucky and the shot didn't hit anyone
#and he got away with it.

Dont worry.  When the review board reviews the 
shoot, they will ask him where that round went,
what it was aimed at, what was behind and around
the intended target, what the possibility for 
hitting bystanders was, etc.  Every law enforcement
agency that I am familiar with accounts for 
every single round that is discharged on duty,
even if nobody was actually shot.  Paranoia is
the name of the game.

That is a good question; where do you put a 
warning shot if you want to fire one?  Figure 
that you have to keep your eye on the perp all
of the time, and you want to have the gun in 
some position where you can get it back on the 
perp quickly...  Yeah, I know, put the warning 
shot into the perp!  Somehow this doesnt seem 
like the right answer, at least not in a court
of law.

Cherry
From: burge@qdeck.com (Bill Burge)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Loading Ques
Date: 13 Sep 92 23:16:55 GMT
Organization: Quarterdeck Office Systems, Santa Monica CA

In article <9209101150.AA14016@logdis1.hq.aflc.af.mil> kknox@logdis1.hq.aflc.af.mil (Kevin P. Knox) writes:
#A friend of min asked me a question I'm not quite sure of.  He is
#reloading for the 9mm (9x19).  He was using Win 231, 5.0 grains.  I
#can't remember the bullet weight.  He ran out of 231 and wants to
#finish off a can of Blue Dot.  The manual he is using calls for 8.2
#grains of Blue Dot for the same bullet weight.  My friend says that
#the bullet compresses this load in the case.  He was concerned about
#this.  Can anybody tell me if this is a hazard?
#

Your friend seems to like MAX loads.  My manual tells me that (depending
on the bullet weight, but not much) 5 of 231 is at or beyond max.  The 8
of Blue Dot sounds the same.  One of the reasons that MAX loads should be
approached is that case capacity can vary.  While a compressed load is not
ALWAYS an indication of a dangerous load, it is a factor to be remembered.

Bill	burge@qdeck.com
From: rmihara%ocf.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Randall A. Mihara)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Custom Colt Python Work
Date: 10 Sep 92 19:28:34 GMT
Organization: U. C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility

I recently received a preliminary estimate for a Colt python
with custom work.  Among the custom features, I requested
MAG-NA-PORTing, a trigger job down to 2.5 lb (they said that was
the minimum), and accurizing.  When I spoke with one of their
representatives, he said that they "probably" check things like
the headspace, cylinder alignment, etc. and quote: "they check
to make sure it shoots pretty good."  He didn't sound very informed.

I was wondering if anybody knows exactly the procedures that Colt
uses to accurize their pistols, and also if anybody can provide
any opinions regarding satisfaction/dissatisfaction of Colt's work.
Responses from people that have actually had them do work on their
pistols would greatly appreciated.


Randy Mihara
rmihara@ocf.berkeley.edu
From: gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Remington 11-87 orange flash upon extraction
Date: 12 Sep 92 13:53:34 GMT
Organization: U.S. Army Ballistic Research Lab, APG MD.


In article <z+lnbwj.dionj@netcom.com> dionj@netcom.com (Dion Johnson) writes:
#My Remington 11-87 shotgun often (especially when not freshly cleaned)
#throws a disconcerting amount of orange fire out the ejection
#port when I'm shooting.

Remington ammo seems to generally be weird.
Their .40S&W centerfire pistol ammo has by far the brightest
flash of any factory load I've tried (about two dozen by now).
From: meyers@rtp.dg.com (Bill Meyers)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: How to Remove Wby Mark V Recoil Pad?
Date: 8 Sep 92 13:57:56 GMT
Organization: Data General Corporation, RTP, NC.

I'm considering removing ~1/4 pound of wood from under the recoil pad
of my (J.P. Sauer) Weatherby Mark V, to get the weight under 9.5 pounds,
so I could use it in the local High Power Sporting Rifle matches.  I got
as far as removing the two wood screws that nominally hold down the pad,
only to find that the dern thing doesn't drop off.  Does anybody know
whether they were intentionally glued on (this one was made about 1968),
and/or how to get it off without making a mess of things?  Thanks!
From: hays@ssd.intel.com (Kirk Hays)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: AMT Lightning
Date: 15 Sep 92 19:25:12 GMT
Organization: Intel Supercomputer Systems Division

In article <9209140858.aa09040@sco1.qdeck.com>, burge@qdeck.com (Bill Burge) writes:
|> In article <BuH6Jp.6B@news.cso.uiuc.edu> cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (Chris Luchini) writes:
|> #In article <1992Sep11.225732.19757@henson.cc.wwu.edu>, n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:
|> ##dak@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (David Kardelis- I am the NRA) writes:
|> ##
|> ##
|> ###	AMT Lightning 22 pistol. This is a SS copy of the RUGER MarkII. 
|> ###	with 3 mags.			$230 + shipping
|> ##
|> ##
|> ##I have one of these.  Not only is it as good as a Ruger, imo, it is
|> ##great in that grooves for a scope come pre-cut.
|> ##
|> #	Dave's Lightning is, alas, slightly more accurate than mine. One
|> #	of the reasons I bought my Lightning was that the first time out
|> #	with Dave's gun I punched a sub 1" group @25 yards. Without
|> #	a scope mine will do 3/4" @25 yards, his will do slightly less.
|> #
|> #	What kind of accuracy do you S&W41/Buck Mark Target/Ruger shooters
|> #	get with your pistols?
|> 
|> I have one of the first one's of these to roll out.  It has the 10 1/2"
|> barrel for 22lr sil. (little critters) and came with Micro brand sights.
|> I was bummed to see them drop the Micro sights.  From a creedmore pose
|> mine has made .5" groups at 50 yards reliably using Win T-22 ammo.

I've got that beat - I have the very first AMT 10 1/2" bull barrel
"Lightning"/Mark I receiver they ever made, before they made grip frames, serial
number 000213.  It was a special order at the time, but they then put it in the
product line.

It's NIB, so I have no idea how accurate it is, but a later one I have (SN
002325) as a "shooter" is about as accurate as yours.

With an Aimpoint-like sight mounted, it's the perfect squirrel gun, IMHO.

-- 
Kirk Hays - NRA Life.
Start your day with a little civil disobedience.  Call BATF at 1-800-ATF-GUNS or
1-800-RUN-GUNS, tell them what you think of gun grabbers and government employees
that encourage people to narc on their neighbors.  Good for the soul.
From: fiddler@concertina.Eng.Sun.COM (steve hix)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Revolver advice wanted
Date: 11 Sep 92 14:05:15 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.

I'm getting my Christmas money in a couple of weeks and I already
want to spend it.  (So what's new?...)

This time, I think what I want is a single-action revolver, stainless,
with provision for a scope (maybe it can wait...but the gun can't).
OK, so I'm a little kid in a candy store with a found quarter.)

I might be tempted to go for the Freedom Arms .22, but it seems just
a tad rich for me.

More likely would be something in .357/.38, .44spl/.44mag, or .45LC.
Like maybe from (he says, ducking) Ruger like a Redhawk or Bisley.

I would be putting holes in paper most of the time, but occasional
varminting might be allowed. I'm getting into handloading now, if
that might affect anything.

Does anyone have any recommendations or warnings?

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Of making many books there is no end...  |  What's wrong with chasing 
                       -- Eccl. 12:12    |  nebulae till 3 am?  |-(
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: lriggins@afit.af.mil (L. Maurice Riggins)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Black Talon ammo
Date: 9 Sep 92 21:27:16 GMT
Organization: Air Force Institute of Technology

In article <1992Sep8.190237.6023@news.yale.edu> swatt%mickey@net.yale.edu (Alan Watt) writes:
#It rather seems like Winchester designed around Dr. Fackler's theories,
#which as I read it, remain unproven.
#
#Does Black Talon ammo get reliable expansion at the sub-1000 fps velocities?
#If so, this is something new in itself.

The magazine article I read on the Black Talon had a sidebar where the
author describes using the 10mm for hunting.  Seems although it expands
dramtically in ballistic gelatin, it didn't do squat for expansion on
a deer.  It's been a while since I read it, but as I recall, he went
back to Winchester and they worked on the design, but I don't recall
any subsequent hunting test that he mentioned.
-- 
Maurice               INTERNET:  lriggins@afit.af.mil
From: rlwst8+@pitt.edu (Robert L Williamson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Colt
Date: 8 Sep 92 16:54:38 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh


I haven't been following the news that lately, but what happened to Colt?
I heard someone bought them out?


				Rob
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: "Windicator" revolvers, European American Armory
Date: 9 Sep 92 21:27:56 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

Seen these?

They have a square barrel that looks entirely wacky on the 4"
and 6" versions.  Apparently the barrel is machined from a 
square block and they save money this way.   The cylinder is
unfluted and smooth, which I like.  S.W.A.T. ragazine shows a
.38 6 shot with a 2" square barrel and a round butt and a spurless
hammer.  Suprisingly, it didn't look bad at all, not at all.

I could have sworn the name of these ugly things was "Vindicator"
at one time, untill the firm realized that the name was an exceptionally
stupid one so changed it to one even more so by transforming the V to a W.

The snub was one of those things that is interesting, but the price would
have to be enticingly lower than the "name" brand eqivalents such as the
ruger or S&W snubs I could get for about $270 from a distributer.

Jim Del Vecchio
From: cower@csli.stanford.edu (Richard Cower)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: SKS's with detachable magazines ARE shipping
Date: 4 Sep 92 23:44:46 GMT
Organization: CSLI, Stanford University


I posted this a few days ago...they are shipping them today (9/3/92). I guess
they resolved the "problem" with the ATF.

#Someone posted that SOG (Southern Ohio Guns) is selling the SKS's with
#the detachable magazines (these take standard AK magazines).

#While it is true, they are selling them - they are not delivering them. The
#ATF is holding up the shipment. It might be resolved by mid-Sept., but I
#wouldn't bet on it.

...rich
From: erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Beretta 92 problems
Date: 4 Sep 92 23:44:42 GMT


David Post writes:
#Does this mean that the US military has you routinely firing the wrong
#ammunition in your sidearm?

When M9s were first issued there was little if any US M882 NATO ball in
the system. Most units received Federal SAAMI-spec, while some got
the IMI "Uzi" carbine loads. The M9 user who related this to me had
the Federals in his piece: "FC 86" without the NATO mark.


#How can you tell the difference between 9mm carbine and 9mm parabellum?

Exterior dimensions are identical; the former is merely a much hotter
load of the latter. The IMI loads have (had?) a black tip on the bullet and
"9mm CARB." in the headstamp.


In order of increasing pressure, you have:

SAAMI standard pressure
SAAMI +P pressure
SAAMI +P+ pressure ~ NATO
Carbine


Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
Protect the Second Amendment - boycott Ruger products
"That's not true," Bill hissed to his lawyer. "The facts are-"
"Don't worry about facts, Bill, no one else here does. Facts can't
alter this case."       -"Bill the Galactic Hero" Harry Harrison
From: osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: bullet casting residue
Date: 9 Sep 92 03:16:07 GMT
Organization: Twilight Zone

In article <1992Sep1.132849.26786@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> bobd@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Bob DeBula) writes:
#In article <012CDEEC047FE01E46@VXC.UNCWIL.EDU> PATE@VXC.UNCWIL.EDU (BILL PATE, ADMIN. SERVICES, PATE@VXC.UNCWIL.EDU) writes:
##
###BTW, I think I may have had a slight acute lead toxicity episode...
###I was trying my first lead casting with an electric bottom pour
###pot and think I had it too hot (got some yellow powder forming
###on the top).  The next day I had some diarrhea, mild headache,
###sinus discomfort, and generally felt odd/lousy for a couple of days.

	Not necessarily lead.  Several heavy metals will do this.
###
###What was the yellow powder, lead oxide?  Why did it form?
##

	The only color I know of that lead oxide occurs in is white.

##Your experience sounds like the effects welders experience after
##welding or cutting galvanized pipe.  The zinc coating on the metal
##leaves a yellow residue and creates a white or yellowish smoke.
##
	Or worse, Cadmium which leaves BRIGHT yellow oxides and is
	extremely poisonous.  Cadmium poisoning is consistent with
	the symptoms stated above.  Early lead poisoning is not.  
	Lead tends to effect memory significantly at first.
#
#
#Make *sure* you
#are in a *well* ventilated area (I cast outside on nice days
#and stay away from the vicinity of the pot while the lead
#is melting). Wear goggles. Wear *heavy* leather gloves
#(i.e. *not* driving gloves). Wear a heavy shop apron if
#you've got it. *Do not* habitually snort the air over
#the pot. 

	Sound advice.

	-Andy V.
From: ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Rifled Shotgun Chokes
Date: 7 Sep 92 00:39:16 GMT
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group

In article <9208300132.AA27282@doug.cae.wisc.edu> sean@cae.wisc.edu (Sean Rutledge) writes:
#I was wondering what a rifled shotgun choke would do to the pattern
#of shot.  Wouldn't the rifling add a spin to the shot making a 
#larger pattern?  If so, would this be something good to use for a
#home defense shotgun?

It makes for a horribly *uneven* pattern. You'd never know from shot
to shot just where the bulk of the shot would go. Try a .410/.45LC
TC barrel without the "straightener" tube to see what I mean.

Gary
From: rboudrie@chpc.org (Rob Boudrie)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Loading Ques
Date: 11 Sep 92 20:12:20 GMT
Organization: Center For High Perf. Computing of WPI; Marlboro Ma

In article <9209101150.AA14016@logdis1.hq.aflc.af.mil> kknox@logdis1.hq.aflc.af.mil (Kevin P. Knox) writes:
#A friend of min asked me a question I'm not quite sure of.  He is
#reloading for the 9mm (9x19).  He was using Win 231, 5.0 grains.  I
#can't remember the bullet weight.  He ran out of 231 and wants to
#finish off a can of Blue Dot.  The manual he is using calls for 8.2
#grains of Blue Dot for the same bullet weight.  My friend says that
#the bullet compresses this load in the case.  He was concerned about
#this.  Can anybody tell me if this is a hazard?
#

WW231 and Blue Dot occupt different ends of the spectrum - WW231 is a
fast powder for relatively slow loads, whereas the Blue Dot is a close
to magnum velocity slow burning powder.

The friend of yours would be better served by deciding what kind of load
he wants to make and obtaining an appropriate powder, rather than trying
to stuff any leftovers he has around into the case.
From: C08926RC@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu (Rob)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: RE: State Laws
Date: 11 Sep 92 14:05:27 GMT

I thought I'd throw in how my state compares, even though the original
poster didn't ask about it...8-)

Missouri seems to be ok for gun owners - we have a pre-emption law
(forbids municipalities from enacting stricter laws than the state).
I believe the state constitution recognizes an individual right to
keep and bear arms.  Open carry is legal; however, concealed carry
is not (although a good attempt was made last year to legalize it,
and it will be re-introduced next session).  You must obtain a
purchase permit to buy a handgun, but it seems to be non-discretionary.
A background check is performed; state law allows each county's sheriff
to set a waiting period of up to 7 days.  Also, it seems the permit is
only needed for purchases from a dealer; either it's not required for
private sales, or it's largely ignored/unenforced.

Finally, ATF weapons are allowed, except for gas guns (what's dat?)
and suppressors.

Rob
From: erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Opinions sought on Ruger Mini 14/30
Date: 4 Sep 92 23:44:35 GMT


Bob Westover writes:
#Somehow I never equated the SKS to a battle rifle;  caliber
#is too wimpy, not enough energy. When you think battle rifle,
#think major caliber, at least 7.62x51 (.308 Win).

A better name for the SKS can be taken from the name: the "K"
stands for the Russian word equivalent to "carbine" (don't
know Russian; in Polish it'd be "karabinek").

I sometimes wonder why the soviets introduced a firearm like the
SKS, with its decidedly pre-war layout (fixed box mag, wood
stock), in a cartridge (the 7.62x39) which was modeled after a
round being used in an assault rifle (7.9x33 in MKb.42/MP.43/MP.44/
StG.44 etc). Available design perhaps?


Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
Protect the Second Amendment - boycott Ruger products
"That's not true," Bill hissed to his lawyer. "The facts are-"
"Don't worry about facts, Bill, no one else here does. Facts can't
alter this case."       -"Bill the Galactic Hero" Harry Harrison
From: erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Black Talon ammo
Date: 8 Sep 92 16:54:36 GMT


Henry Schaffer writes:
#Cal.  bull wt  MV  50 yds  ME  50 yds  Barrel Lgth
#9mm     147   990   945   320   292       4"


If they made the 9mm load any wimpier it'd be a good .380 load :)

I wonder how this Black Talon design would work in a proper 9mm load,
with a 115-125 gr bullet at 1250 ft/s or so?

In another post Peter Kasler (where's my book Pete? :) describes Dr.
Fackler's praise of the Black Talon design. I wonder if this is such
a good thing, as Fackler seems to be the founder of the "heavy bullets
are better and real-world shootings be damned" school of thought, the
same school of thought which brought us the underwhelming 147 gr 9mm JHP.

Suffice it to say I won't be replacing my 115 gr Cor-Bons :)


Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
Protect the Second Amendment - boycott Ruger products
"That's not true," Bill hissed to his lawyer. "The facts are-"
"Don't worry about facts, Bill, no one else here does. Facts can't
alter this case."       -"Bill the Galactic Hero" Harry Harrison
From: crandall@spock.usc.edu (Mike Crandall)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Is a pocket gun really a pocket gun?
Date: 5 Sep 92 14:57:28 GMT
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA

Just a little piece of my mind...
Earlier I got to deal with the LAPD a bit because my roommate's girlfriend
got her purse snatched (right in front of our apt. complex in broad daylight
of all things!). She wasn't attacked and was unhurt.
While one officer was taking a report, I chatted wit the other a bit.
I noticed he had a weapon stuffed in his front left pant pocket, which he
said was a S&W 3913 9mm.  When they say pocket weapon, they MEAN pocket
weapon.  It looked extremely uncomfortable, like carrying 5 sets of keys
and three rolls of quarters around in your pants.  No wonder when we offered
him a seat he politely refused and remained standing.
His service (holstered) piece was a Beretta 92.
By the way, they got here quite quickly and were very kind and efficient, 
even though this was probably a minor call for Downtown L.A. :)
I should have videotaped them and sent the video to the media. :|
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                Mike Crandall            | "I'm NOT perfect... yet."     
            crandall@spock.usc.edu       |                        
      USC Dept. of Aerospace Engineering |                       -MacGyver
From: richa@aspen.cna.tek.com (Rich Amber)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Info on Baby Eagle??
Date: 9 Sep 92 21:27:42 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Redmond,  OR.



The Baby Eagle is only a CZ clone insofar as the grip/frame assembly
resembles a CZ, which is true of damn near every other European semi-
auto made today. Big deal.

I purchased one of these IMI marvels before Magnum Research had a
contract to import them as baby eagles. The one I have is called a
Jericho 941 and was imported by KBI. They are identical.

My kit came with frame, 9mm bbl and spring assy, 2 9mm magazines,
41AE bbl and spring assy, 2 41AE magazines, a box of 50 9mm cartridges,
a box of 50 41AE cartridges (both Uzi brand), and a cleaning kit.
All of this comes in a fitted plastic box that looks like a briefcase.

The big difference, for those of you not familiar with Isreal Military
Industries pistols, is that there is no "traditional" rifling in these
barrels. Right - no lands and grooves to get clogged. IMI uses a
hexogonal button to provide the twist. I get sub 2" groups at 30m
with either caliber, so it seems accurate enough, and is much easier
to keep clean.

If you don't mind being thought of as the oddball, go for the 41AE
instead of the 40S&W. It really is a much better round. Media hype
has insured the success of the 40S&W, but I personally don't think
it is that great. But, of course, the 41AE might be hard to find ammo
for because it's not being pushed by the writers. If you'll compare
the tests and not the hype, the 41AE is the superior cartridge.
(sounds like the old 9mm vs 45ACP battle, huh?) Oh well, to each his own.

Rich Amber, NRA Life
Presonal Protection instructor, Firearms Safety Instructor, Gunsmith,
Rangemaster, Board member of Central Oregon Shooting Sports Assn.,
etc., etc.,