From: vicka@wrq.com (the Littlest Orc)
Newsgroups: alt.polyamory
Subject: Re: Intro to me and question for all
Date: 11 Dec 92 19:37:51 GMT
Organization: Walker Richer & Quinn, Inc., Seattle, WA


My goodness, this thread's gotten big!  I've concatenated my responses
to save on load; hope the attributions are all clear...


Aahz sez:
> Vicka claims that monogamy and polyamory are *tendencies* or
> preferences, and that a person can be in multiple relationships while
> still being essentially monogamous in attitude.

Just wanted to say I think this is a reasonable summary.

> The main problem from my point of view is the slipperiness of the word
> "love". [....]
> The question then becomes, "What *kind* of love does it take to make
> more than one of that kind of relationship into polyamory?"

*laughter* Hell's bells, that's a lot more than I thought I was biting off.
You're right; it is a slippery problem, but I don't think it's one I ever
intended to address in this thread.  I was just talking about the kinds
of preferences one can have about number-of-simultaneous-relationships;
which seems to me a smaller matter than the Nature of Love.


Muffy sez:
> I am saying is that if someone is *acting* polyamorously (having more
> than one lover at the same time), then calling themselves monogamous is
> misleading.

I use the term not to mislead, but rather to communicate an important
and relevant fact about my preferences.  Do you have some term you'd 
like better for expressing that same fact?


Philip Lafornara sez:
> I believe that the fundamental obstacle to polyamory is jealousy, and
> [....] Certain people are jealousy-impaired; they don't practice it,
> don't understand it, or can keep it under control to an extent that the 
> rest of the world cannot.  These are the people that can be happily
> polyamorous.

Hmm.  I guess I'm jealousy-impaired -- one of my lovers is married
to someone else, and I'm downright cheerful about that fact.  Still,
my preference is to have only one lover at a time; I don't feel like
I could be happily multipartnered under many circumstances.  


Muffy sez:
>>[quoting Phil] Partner 1:  "By the way, are you monogamous?"
>>		 Partner 2:  "Yes."
>>		 Partner 1:  "Oh, OK..." and proceeds to never mention it again.
>
> You seem to have imagined it quite well, actually.  Most people don't
> even negotiate relationships this far, they just assume monogamy.

Doesn't apply to my life, I'm afraid.  I only get involved with people
who are already my friends, and who know a fair amount about my feelings
and my involvements with other people.  (We're a gossipy group, we are....)

> Although most people have their "own" definitions of words, there is
> generally a "basic definition" of any word

My use of "monogamous" is apparently clear to my lovers and to the other
folks on this list.  I daresay that indicates that it's a decent match
for the consensual use of the term.

>>Do you have any reason to believe that Vicka is anything but
>>honest with her lovers?
>
> I have no reason to believe she is or isn't.  However, that has nothing
> to do with what I am talking about.

So calling me "cruel", my words "lies", and my relationships "dishonest"
has nothing to do with your belief about my honesty?  This is very weird.

> Out as monogamous?  I doubt if you have to *tell* anyone that you are
> monogamous, since it is the default assumption in our soceity.

It's not the default here in alt.polyamory, and I also think it's
important to be clear about such things with one's lovers.  Relying
on defaults instead of actual communication is rarely a good idea.

>>You don't believe in my life,
>
> I absolutely believe in it.  Where did you get the idea I didn't?

You've posted all kinds of untrue things about it -- saying it's
"dishonest" and "cruel" when it's actually none of these.  What
you believe in is not my life; it's a nasty little creation of your
own false assumptions.

> What I'm talking about is what it seems to me that "outness" is all 
> about - how the *rest* of the world perceives you.

As far as I'm concerned, you're part of the "rest of the world".  And
my being out includes setting the likes of you straight about my life.


cheers,
--vicka						       vicka@wrq.com

   "Yeah, we got dogs and Valvoline; it's a pretty damn good time."
							--Toy Matinee