From: mikeh@starnine.com (Mike Haas)
Subject: Re: Amiga 4000/Atari Falcon
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 04:26:53 GMT
Organization: StarNine Technologies, Inc.

In article <1992Aug27.161036.384@ctr.columbia.edu> jerry@connection.prospect.com (Jerry Shekhel) writes:
>In article <BtM61A.Bs@starnine.com> mikeh@starnine.com (Mike Haas) writes:
>>>
>>>[OS/2 2.0]
>>>That's funny.  I run it at work on a 20MHz 386 (PS/2 80), and it's damn fast.
>>>With Procomm downloading at 2400 bps in the background, characters typed in a
>>>DOS text editor appear instantaneously.
>>
>>Big deal.  An Amiga 500 does the same.  How about with a ray trace
>>happening in the background?
>>
>
>Never tried it.  Have you?  Didn't think so.

Not on OS/2, but have on a 7.14 MHz Amiga.  It could ALSO upload at
2400 (and higher) in the background.

>
>>
>>And 1.2 - 1.3 was relatively stable.  Many used it successfully for years.
>>How do you think all the products were developed before 2.0?  Yep, 2.0
>>is better, but as far as stability, 1.2/1.3 wasn't that bad.
>>
>>AND... OS/2 has the might of IBM behind it.  Still can't get the
>>bugs out, eh?
>>
>
>OS/2 itself is solid.  There are bugs in the WPS, but the WPS is brand new
>software -- and very sophisticated software at that.

That's why it has bugs?  Because it's s-o-o-o sophisticated?

>
>>
>>>Don't compare OS/2 2.0 to AmigaDOS -- AmigaDOS
>>>isn't even close in terms of functionality,
>>
>>Of course it is... pre-emptive multitasking, GUI based system.  Probably
>>better than OS/2 in real-time response.  Addresses 1.8 GIG of memory.
>>Multi-media capable... make that natural.
>>
>
>It still isn't even close to OS/2 in terms of functionality.

Sure Jerry, you can just stand there and repeat it over and over...

>
>>
>>Less buggy (by your own
>>admission above...
>>
>
>I said that OS/2 has bugs; I never said it was *less* buggy than AmigaDOS.
>Quit putting words in my mouth.
>
>>
>>YOU compared it to pre-1.3 AmigaDOS).  Full
>>Command-Line capability (WITHOUT the great "design goal" of being
>>DOS compatible).
>>
>
>Like I said, if you don't like the OS/2 command line, get the free 4OS2 or
>GNU bash.

I think command-line are great.  I just hate Intel boxes.  So it
doesn't matter WHAT shell is there... it's ALL garbage!

>
>>
>>Actually, DOS capability (including Windows :-() is only an emulator
>>or BridgeBoard away (for the masochists in the crowd).
>>
>
>How much for one of those BridgeBoards?  What's on it, a 286?  If you think
>a BridgeBoard is comparable to having a PC, you're sadly mistaken.

I know... with the 386 BB from C=, you also have the AMiga!
You're right!  A PC can't compare!

>>
>>>so it shouldn't take Sherlock
>>>Homes to figure out that it requires less hardware.
>>
>>Yeah.  I have both 2.04 AND 1.3 installed on my hard disk in less than
>>8 meg (my 2.04 partition is 6 meg and has 3 meg free).
>>
>>From what I understand, OS/2 needs something over 30 meg, minimum?
>>'Zat right?
>>
>
>'Zat's wrong.

Well, Jerry, what's the right number? 28Meg? 25Meg?  Decline to comment?

>
>>>
>>>More bullshit .advocacy whining.  Intel-based PC's now have cheap EISA,
>>>blazing fast local-bus video, inexpensive sound cards, and more support than
>>>you could shake an A500 power cord at.
>>
>>All kludged in.  All Intel byte-swapped garbage.  Specialized CPU registers
>>(how many general purpose ones?).  No sound or video-support out of the
>>box.
>>
>
>Mike, you're full of shit.

Perhaps.  I've had to program PC's over the last year, and shit
might be contaguous.


>No video support out of the box?!  What box?
>Find me a clone vendor that doeesn't sell complete systems.

Yeah.  All different.  Show me 2 vendors that sell the SAME system?

>
>Kludged in?!  You mean, kind of like your built-in flicker-fixer, Mike?

No, I don't mean factory-installed, present-in-every-system features.
BTW, the interlace of the AMiga is a GOOD THING.  It's one of the
reasons the Amiga is so much better at video that Intel trash.
(Seen Pournelle's latest column?  Even HE admits how superior
the Amiga is for creating multi-media!).

The fact that some systems flicker simply means their owners
can have high-quality tools at less cost.  MY system is
rock-solid.  Just like Amiga VS. PC prices...you get what
you pay for!


>As for your comments about byte swapping and x86 CPUs -- if you can't
>deal with the fact that there are different CPU architectures out there,
>do yourself a favor and get out of the industry.

No thanks.  I like this industry (except when I have to work on PCs).

If YOU can't accept the fact that byte-swapped, Intel arxchitecture
is a throw-bacvk from ancient technology, maybe YOU better
get out of the industry.  Honestly, that abortion was on the original
8080 and continues on the "latest" and "lamest".

And as far as THAT particular feature goes... what a PAIN!  You have]
to examine memory in a debugger based on what KIND of data is there
for it to end up displayed in a form that won't give you a migraine
while interpreting it!  (That's assuming you have a debugger
that can even do anything but raw dumps).

Back then, Motorola knew how to design a CPU that stored 16-bits
in sensible fashion (re: the old 6800).  Why didn't Intel?

Motorola knew how to build a CPU that utilized bus bandwith!
Often was the time my 2MHz 6800 would equal or better my
friends 4MHz Z80 at running the same vendor's Forth implementation.
These were old times, but the 8080/Z80 influence is still
evident in Intel stuff.

The limitations of the I/O bus (only 256 periferals possible)...
non-vectored interrupts...Intel stuff has always been so WIERD!

And how many general-purpose registers are in the three-eighty-shit
anyway?

>
>>
>>I have yet to
>>install a single driver in my A3000, and I had one of the first.
>>
>
>And that's a good thing, right?
>
>Why would you need drivers for an OS that's so chained to specific hardware?
>If you were just a little less ignorant, you'd know that there's no need for
>drivers in a system that doesn't support device independence.

The Amiga has had device-independence built in from day 1.  It's the
GRAPHICS that hasn't (which is changing).  I've been able to
type:

   dir >PRT:

without caring what kind of printer is there.  And there ARE drivers
under there... Commodore provides a wealth of them and tons more
available on the nets.

Other devices include PAR: (parallel port), SER: (serial port),
AUX: (multi-user operation through SER: port...DOS ever had
THAT?), RAM: (system ram disk...DOS have that?) and many more.

But every time I turn around, I hear PC dudes bitchin' about not having the
right driver for something, or the latest version to support something.
Sounds like kludge language to me!

And I'm FLABBERGASTED that DOS 5.0...the LATEST...STILL doesn't
give you the ability to dump out a binary file!  In fact, the DOS
5.0 manual sez that you can use TYPE, but it will display
funny characters if used on a non-text file!!!!  This is a
professional operating system?  One just released in the '90s?

(In the lowly Amiga, you can look at binary files with
 the 'h' option for IT'S TYPE command!)

And I notice that you deleted my stories of the shit I had to
go through with replacing drives and installing DOS 5.0 on my
PeeCee at work.  Wha's a matter, Jerr... nothing to say there?

Ahh.. the auto-configuration facility of the Amiga is SO COOL!
Just install the card, if there IS any software it needs, just
drag it to the startup directory and reboot!  No jumpers, no
dip switches, no worrying about "am I set to an IRQ that's already
being used?"  or  "am I configured inside something elses
memory map".  It's so easy!  (AND "IN THERE" SINCE DAY 1

PC's are NOT plug-&-play.  They're more like "plug-&-not-get-any-
work-done-for-the-next-8-hours-while-you-try-to-figure-out-what-
jumper-is-wrong-or-address-is-getting-tromped-or-driver-isn't-
installed-or...".

Didn't have much to say about PC's until I started working with them
about a year ago.  Since then... I have seen no elegance...nothing
of "cool design"...absolutely NOTHING to endear me to the machine in
any way.  In fact, quite the opposite (obviously).  It reminds me
of that Chevy Vega I had years ago... I feel damn lucky when I get it
to do what I want!

8-character filenames & single-letter drives...tsk, tsk.

Face it... they're garbage!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy