From: jlbrand@pb2esac.uucp (Jack Brand)
Subject: Rats, I guess I'm a Nazi
Followup-To: ca.politics
Summary: all pigs have ears...I have ears...therefore...
Organization: Pacific*Bell ESAC, Oakland, CA.
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 05:33:10 GMT

Mr. Ronzone writes:
>So then, you think schools should exist that teach ideas that
>parents DON'T want taught to their kids??? 

To a certain extent, absolutely.  If parents believe the Earth is flat
I believe it is immoral to teach their children same.  I am not saying
that parents should not have avenues of influence over a good deal of
the content and approach a school may take.  And -- ooops, I am straying from
keeping this discussion in terms of black and white absolutes, and I
know you are not fond of that.

>A business provides services that are desired by its customers.

You consider the precious responsibility of educating our children to
be just like a business - not me.

>So I see. YOU have * * * T R U T H * * *.

Absolutely not.  I would hope that my kids get educated enough (whether
by their school, their church, or wherever) that they will jettison
what prejudices, ignorance, and hypocricies *I* am inevitably passing on 
to them.

>The whole Truth, and only the Truth, and You Do Truly Know What
>Shall Be Taught To Us Lesser Beings!

Ah, the subtleties of looking at a complex issue and seeing it in
something other than black and white...

>Well look, I don't like what a lot of people would (or do) teach
>their kids right now. But gawd damn, I'm nowhere near the arrogance
>to assume that I KNOW BETTER THAN THOSE PARENTS WHAT SHOULD BE
>taugh their kids!

When the wisest men and women in a society discover bits of Truth along
the way of our history (e.g. the earth is not flat, humanity is evolved,
etc.) it should be taught to humanity's children over the potential
protests of parents.  Yes, *sigh*, you have me pegged.

This appears to be the stance you advocate: "I believe anyone that imagines
they know any 'Truth' well enough to want to teach it to others against
their upbringing is just an arrogant autocrat; the best approach is to
back off any such attempt and let everyone teach what 'feels good' to them."

This is moral relativism at its worst.  How interesting, coming from you.

>And I have yet to find a perfect person that decide all these
>truth issues for him/her self and still be able to make those
>decisions for other people.

And until we find that perfect person we won't even make the slightest
attempt, either.  Sorry, I'll pass on that theory.

>The NAZIs had zero tolerance forschool choices -- the children got the
>State approved choice. Period. Is this not what you seek?

Oh, I suddenly see the light:

	1) I am not in favor of a good deal of the "school choice" idea,
	when it involves a migration towards merely reinforcing only whatever
	the parents think Johny should know.

	2) Under Naziism students only had the state approved schools

	THEREFORE...

This kind of "reasoning" merely reflects, for the billionth time, on your
inability to deal with this issue on anything other than a black and white,
one extreme or the other, level.

Hmmm, the postman brought me some bad news today.  Therefore, I think I'll
never pick up my mail again.


>    >True. But just because something *might* go wrong with a
>    >method does not invalidate the method. Of course the easy way
>    >out is to throw up our hands and say "Gosh, there's a chance
>    >this scheme of teaching kids somewhat independent of the
>    >day-to-day whims of the parents could go wrong, so we give
>    >up. It's all a bad idea."
>    >
>    >Some of us do not choose the easy way out.
>
>No, you choose the inherent fascist way. Even your wording is loaded with
>automatic assumptions that YOU know better than "day-to-day whims" of
>parents. 

Not me, personally.  The best minds that humanity has to offer, and the
*demonstrable*, scientific discoveries they have made.  

>Yes, the NAZIs too thought that that THEY could do better than
>the parents.

So I am at once in the same league as Nazis.

Don't get me wrong - I understand exactly your accusations re: coercion
and its ill effects as evidenced by, in the extreme case, Nazis.  But
I think you have the wrong target - that any "coercion" is by definition
wrong because it may be abused.  That is like saying a parent would not
be wise to forcibly discipline their child because a family down the
street beat their kid to death.  Forcible discipline was used for evil ends, 
therefore forcible discipline in any form is wrong (says this line of
thinking...)

>Now, who is REALLY the more tolerant here? I think it tis me and not thee...

We wouldn't be bandying about the word "tolerance" carelessly
here, would we?  From another recent posting of yours (on another
topic):

>Naw -- I'm intolerant about a lot of things...
>I am intolerant of coercion, fascists, murder, child
>molestation, and a lot of other such shit. How about you?

And now that you agree being "tolerant" is not always the goal, I am happy
to add that I too am intolerant of lots of things, including
willful ignorance foisted upon children by their parents in the
name of "choice".

-----
An aside to the net:

I do not actually believe that all (or even most) private or church-run
schools do a horrendous job or that they cannot teach a good deal of the
curriculum as well or better than some of our public schools.  (I do
know, however, from personal experiences, that some subjects in the
curriculum are heavily skewed towards a particular religious viewpoint,
whether any objective evidence exists for that viewpoint or not.  This
bothers me a great deal - call me silly...)
But when I hear such nonsense that it is inherently evil to
even consider having public schools in a society, and that the Only
Solution is to have the education of our young treated just as though
you were taking a suit to the cleaners (i.e. any other business
transaction) I draw the line.
-----

I don't really believe I can shed much more light on my position, Phil -
I understand yours, I *think* you understand mine (if you don't by now
I give up), and we profoundly disagree.  (I, however, vote... :-} )

Therefore I am inclined to not bore the net with any more of my
ramblings on the subject, lest I wear out my welcome.

jb
Newsgroups: ba.politics,ca.politics