HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cash@convex.com (Peter Cash)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Transporting handgun in DC (was Re: dealing with a police officer)
Date: 19 Dec 92 00:24:20 GMT
Organization: The Instrumentality

In article <1992Dec17.010758.10828@odin.corp.sgi.com> adam@aj.clubfed.sgi.com (Adam C. Joseph) writes:

#range for members).  As one would expect, this requres me to travel
#through DC with multiple weapons in tow (unloaded and in the back as one
#would expect).According to the range master, traveling to and from the
#range is legal even in DC.  When I queried him regarding appropriate
#action should I get pulled over by the boys in blue, his recommendation
#was to "let them find the guns," DO NOT volunteer the information.  I
#agree that with the reputation of DC police there is a good chance that I
#could be spending a long evening at the station explaining how I was only
#going to (or returning from the range) if I alerted them to cargo when
#initially pulled over, but on the other hand I may need to call my lawyer
#(and possibly next of kin if the weapons are discovered after a brief
#search.

If the weapons are confiscated after a search, you can raise improper
search and seizure as a defense. However, if you volunteer the presence of
the weapons and they are seized, it may be more difficult to raise this
defense. I doubt if even the Washington DC police will shoot you just for
carrying guns in your trunk.

In any case, I've never been searched in the course of a traffic stop. My
advice would be to smile, be polite to the officer, and take your ticket. 

Never volunteer.

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
             |      Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist.     |
Peter Cash   |       (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein)      |cash@convex.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: cramer@optilink.com (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: AMT backup .380
Date: 19 Dec 92 15:19:51 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA


In article <9212161801.AA02913@sunsrvr1.cci.com>, sjo@sunsrvr1.cci.com (Steve Owens) writes:
# In article <9212151109.aa07559@ingate.microsoft.COM> you write:
# #In article <6034@rosie.NeXT.COM> trose@NeXT.COM writes:
# ##I am looking for a small pocket pistol for occasional carry
# ##when belt carry isnot available.   I read an article on the 
# #
# #Let me repeat myself again: AVOID THE AMT BACKUP, EVEN THE DA MODEL.
# #Get a Walther PPK(/S) or a Colt Mustang. You'll be a lot happier. Check out
# 
# 	Why not look into the new Firestars?  American Rifleman gave
# a good review of them this month (If I remember correctly, the article 
# said they were reliable and well made.  For a minute, I wondered whether 
# I was reading American Rifleman or not. :-)  and they come in more 
# effective calibers than the .380 (they come in 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP).
# Looking at them in the local gun shop, the Firestars didn't appear to be 
# much bigger than a Colt Mustang.
# 
# #	...Dave
# 						Steve

The difference in linear dimensions doesn't look like much in the
display case, but it does matter a lot for concealment.  The
Mustang can be carried in most pockets, or under a T-shirt, but
the Firestars, while only a "little" bigger, really don't conceal
well except under a jacket or in a fanny pack.  

The other difference is weight.  The Firestars are all about
34 ozs. and up.  The Colt Mustang in steel is 18.5 ozs.; the
lightweight alloy version is 12.5 ozs.  The weight makes a big
difference in terms of pocket deformation.

This is not a criticism of the Firestars -- I expect to buy one
soon, and as soon as I get a chance to qualify with one, I will
have it put on my CCW, instead of the Colt Government Model .380.
But the Firestar is NOT anywhere near as easy to conceal as the
Mustang.
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
C++ is to C, as lung cancer is to lung.
From: hertzh%lanf.kaiserslau-emh1.army.mil@kaiserslau-emh1.army.mil (Harry W.Hertz)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Info on BITNET and USENET
Date: 16 Dec 92 14:35:03 GMT

I would like to get more details on how to get an acct. on BITNET or USENET!

Can you help? Or tell me where to look?      

Happy Holidays from Germany
Harry
From: grant@bluemoon.use.com (Grant DeLorean)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: More on dry firing
Date: 17 Dec 92 12:19:42 GMT
Organization: Blue Moon

hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath) writes:

#In article <921212063832_76334.1331_EHJ22-2@CompuServe.COM> 76334.1331@CompuServe.COM (Brian Millin) writes:
#}
#}	
#}USPSA rules state that the procedure for "hammer down" is to drop the
#}hammer by means of the trigger. There is even a provision for pistols with
#}a magazine safety - you put in an empty mag and then do the deed.
#}
#}There aren't many shooters around with more money in their pistols than
#}IPSC shooters, and they are REQUIRED to dry fire at least once each time
#}they run a stage.
#}
#}So there.			

#Well, _I'm_ going to use the decocker lever as God and SIG intended, rules
#or no rules.

#Harumph! (-:

#(Seriously, would this be a rules violation?  Sounds pretty silly, if so).

 Yes, it doesn't prove the gun is empty...

-- 
\   Grant DeLorean  - IHMSA & NRA Life Member -  (grant@bluemoon.use.com)   /

        Good leaders being scarce, following yourself is allowed.
From: ci513@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Tom Kelly)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Winchester 870 LH For Sale
Date: 19 Dec 92 00:24:39 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)


Appox 15 years old; ribbed barrel; 12ga mod. choke;.....
I know very little about guns so email questions. The gun is in 
great shape, $160.00 you pay shipping if needed.
Tom
--
From: gtao@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Greg )
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Beretta Centurion
Date: 18 Dec 92 01:56:23 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

Hi All,

It's the season of giving and receiving, and I'm busy making out my list.

Something that caught my eye in a magazine was this variant of the
Beretta 92, called the Centurion.  I have always trusted Beretta 
quality, but I want some information from somebody who has experience 
with this gun.  It's kinda hard to keep up with things when you're 
holed up in college.  What's the gun like.  Keep in mind that I'm 
very fond of the 92.

Thanks in advance,


*******************************************************************************
* Gregory Tao                      | E-mail to:  gt38091@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu     * 
* Univ. of IL at Urbana-Champaign  |        OR      gtao@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu     *
* Department of Computer Science   |        OR      gtao@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu     *
* --------------------------------------------------------------------------- *
*                                                                             *
*  	``Change, suddenly, is everywhere we look, sweeping empires and       *
*    ideologies before it, shaping a new era even as we watch. Such moments   *
*    are rare. Today we stand at such a moment.''                             * 
*                                                                             *
* --------------------------------------------------------------------------- *
* DISCLAIMER:  My opinions do not necessarily reflect those of CCSO or the    *
*              University of Illinois.					      *
*******************************************************************************
From: vanetten@unix.cie.rpi.edu (John S. Van Etten)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Smith & Wesson Autos
Date: 13 Dec 92 15:46:24 GMT
Organization: CIE, Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY

Randy Howard writes:

[reams of stuff about why Randy likes the feel of SIGs better than
Smiths has been deleted -- suffice to say, these things are highly
subjective and an individual should try them all out (and yes, Mr.
Moderator, *buy them all* :-), so I'll be damned if I'll contribute to
any extensions of the "Gee the guvmint likes it so it must be good,
M9" vs. the Austrian Water Pistol (a.k.a., The Plastic Brick) vs. "Gee
the guvmint likes this one too, so it must be better, M11" Debate.
Yawn^2.]


#I don't mean to really flame S&W; FOR THE PRICE, they make a decent gun.  But,
#for making premium handguns, they are clearly beaten by a lot of other 
#manufacturers.  Unfortunately, some of the others are in financial trouble, 
#because high quality guns move in radically lower volumes due to the higher
#prices.  I don't ever stop wondering why people would by a S&W .357 magnum
#revolver for example, with folks constantly warning "Don't shoot too much 
#Magnum through that gun, use .38 special instead".  IMHO, if you buy a S&W
#.357 Magnum, you should be able to fire .357MAG through it EVERY time out
#without hurting the gone (more than any other .357 out there anyway).

The durability of a .357 is generally a function of frame size, and is
therefore traded off with concealability.  Please bear that in mind
when making your statements (it strikes me that you might be comparing
a revolver such as the Colt Python to one of the light frame Smith and
Wessons, which isn't valid since the Python has an L-size frame like
the S&W 686).  A J- or K-frame Smith will surely fatigue much faster
with hot loads than a heavier revolver will, but that isn't really any
reflection on poor quality of the gun -- just that it has less metal
to take the abuse, since it was designed for light weight and smaller
size.


John

--
******************************************************************************
               John S. Van Etten     vanetten@unix.cie.rpi.edu
       Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute  1000 MIPS GaAs F-RISC Project
       --"If sand didn't irritate oysters, there would be no pearls"--
From: smpod@venus.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Remington 40-XB Questions
Date: 15 Dec 92 23:34:09 GMT
Organization: who knows

edward@locutus.dell.com (Edward Godwin) writes...
# 
#I have decided to purchase a Remington 40-XB.  I want it in a 30 cal chambering.
#This is for ultra long range shooting.  I am also inclined to lug it around on
#hunting trips.  I do not want to start any arguments about "the best chambering".
#I just have a few questions that can hopefully be answered by someone who has one or
#more of these chamberings:
# 
#		.30-06
#		.300 Win Mag
#		.338 Win Mag
#		.30-338  (Wildcat I presume)

#From what I've read and heard, the .300 Win Mag is the most popular long-range
target cartridge.  The .30-338 is a comes in second (probably in competition
with the 7mm Rem Mag). BTW, there seems to be a new fad coming along in using
the modified .280 and .284 cals for long range shooting; it seems that the
theory is that people are pushing the Sierra 168 gr. MK to fast in their 7mm
Rem Mag and that the hight BC of that bullet does not need that extra velocity
and high chamber pressure that may cause the occasional flyer.
From: callison@essex.ecn.uoknor.edu (James P. Callison)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Can a .22 Winchester Magnum revolver fire .22LR cartridge?
Date: 16 Dec 92 14:34:00 GMT
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA

In article <1992Dec15.221442.7081@news.eng.convex.com> cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) writes:
#In article <9212150715.AA29283@sumax.seattleu.edu> chan@seattleu.edu (Anthony K.B. Chan) writes:
##I am wondering if it is possible to use .22LR cartridge in .22 Winchester
##Magnum revolver such as the S&W 648 .22 Mag revolver or the Wesson(Dan) 
#
#Absolutely not. Though the .22 LR will chamber in a .22 mag, it's dangerous
#to fire. The .22 mag case is slightly larger in diameter than the LR; thus,
#the LR will be loose in the mag chamber, and will not be sufficiently
#supported. This means that the .22 LR case may rupture when it is fired in
#a mag chamber, thus spewing brass and gases about. Don't do it.

As I recall from my short tenure with a Ruger Single Six .22lr/.22WMR, the
.22WMR was the same diameter, only longer. You _could_ fire .22lr in a
.22WMR, but it's not recommended, as the chamber for a .22WMR is significantly
longer...that's why the Single Six comes with both .22lr and .22WMR
cylinders.

			James

James P. Callison       Microcomputer Coordinator        OU Law Library 
Callison@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu   /\    Callison@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu
	constellation!biglaw!callison@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu
DISCLAIMER: I'm not an engineer, but I play one at work...
	Your self esteem is enhanced by remaining an ignoramus?
	Please! Let's call it "informationally impaired."
		--Hobbes and Calvin, "Calvin and Hobbes"
From: fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: What about these Helwans???
Date: 12 Dec 92 00:20:23 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

In article <1992Dec9.110817.24291@news.uit.no> steffen@stud.cs.uit.no (Steffen Baeroe) writes:
#Why is it not allowed to use jacketed bullets on your local range?
#I was under the impression that jacketed bullets gave a better 
#protection against lead-poisoning?

Possibly because of the backstop: I used to shoot at a range with a
fairly weak backstop (and, just in case, a grabage dump next door...)
The rule was no full metal jacket rounds, no magnum rounds on the
25-yard range, no center-fire rifle rounds on the 25 or 50-yard
ranges. 

                                           Frank Crary
                                           CU Boulder
From: cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (Chris Luchini)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: For Sale: Tasco PDP2 ProPoint for Mossberg 500
Date: 14 Dec 92 14:15:14 GMT
Organization: High Energy Physics, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign

I have a Tasco ProPoint (I think that's the model name) PDP2 red
dot sight for a mossberg 500 for sale. This little beaste comes
with a mounting bracket for the 500 integrally attached. You just
pop out the trigger pin and one screw and on it goes. It comes with
lense covers and a polarization filter that screws on. Bought a couple
of months ago, and used once for deer season. Since I've sworn off hunting
deer with a shotgun for the rest of my life*, I'm going to unload this puppy.

$85 gets it shipped to you.


------------------------

* I've come to believe that I could make money of my peculiar talent
for driving deer to the other end of the state. Yes, hire me, and
I'll guarantee no deer will ever come within a 300 yard radius. . . :(

*1110 W. Green/Urbana IL 61801/217-333-0505/cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu
From: kemasa@ghost.hac.com (Kemasa)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: A gun in the home....
Date: 17 Dec 92 18:58:55 GMT
Organization: Natural Order Nature Experiments (N.O.N.E.)


In article <1992Dec15.182328.23468@ke4zv.uucp> emory!ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman) writes:
#...
#I don't think you should introduce a youngster
#to firearms until they *really* understand DEAD. Let them wring some
#chicken's necks, pluck them, and eat them before you teach them about
#guns. Or have them help you gut bambi first. If your kids aren't ready
#for that, they aren't ready for guns.

I don't think that *I* am ready for that yet!!! .5 :-) Does that mean
that I am not ready for guns yet?
-- 



						 Kemasa.

Insanity is the best defense.

Sierra Club Leader	NRA Life Member		Pro-freedom	Pro-choice

e-mail address: kemasa@ghost.hac.com
From: wa3wbu!john@uunet.UU.NET (John Gayman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: More on dry firing
Date: 18 Dec 92 13:35:51 GMT
Organization: @ WA3WBU, Marysville, PA


In article <1992Dec16.075612.29021@netcom.com>, pauly@netcom.com (Paul Yoshimune) writes:
# In article <1992Dec16.014824.12112@ttinews.tti.com> hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath) writes:
# #Well, _I'm_ going to use the decocker lever as God and SIG intended, rules
# #(Seriously, would this be a rules violation?  Sounds pretty silly, if so).
# 
# Actually, not silly at all.  The point of "show clear, hammer down, holster"
# is to make the gun safe.  Showing clear makes sure there is no round in the
# chamber.  Hammer down (using the trigger) makes *damn* sure there is no round
# in the chamber.  Note that even though the RO checks the chamber, if you drop
# the hammer and it goes bang, you get DQ'd.
# 

   Humm, are you sure about this ?  I don't have time to dig out my rule
book this morning but I seem to remember that if the gun goes bang AND
it's pointed down range it was only a procedural. I'll have to read the 
rules and double check. (Goes to show how often this actually happens). :-)


						John


-- 
John Gayman, WA3WBU 
UUCP: uunet!wa3wbu!john
Packet: WA3WBU @ WB3EAH
From: kemasa@ghost.hac.com (Kemasa)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: A gun in the home....
Date: 14 Dec 92 14:15:23 GMT
Organization: Natural Order Nature Experiments (N.O.N.E.)


Nothing personal and no flames really intended, but ...

In article <19460@smoke.brl.mil> gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) writes:
#In general, all forms of "security through obscurity" are unsafe.
#The best policy seems to be to educate the child properly and also
#take reasonable, but not extreme, safety precautions such as not
#keeping a round in battery.

I agree with this.

#Before showing the effect of a bullet
#on a melon, it might be advisable to have the child paint a face
#on the melon and to give it a name, let him lug the melon to the
#range, etc.  That way he'll have developed some degree of personal
#attachment to the melon and the demonstration will have shock
#value rather than being viewed as just good fun.

I have a problem with this. It seems a bit cruel. Why not just use
the kid's pet to really make a point? I am joking in this, but I
don't think the idea is to terrify the kid and make the kid have
nightmares, although a psychiatrist might appreciate it and I think
the anti-gun people would too. I also don't think you want to
give the idea that it is acceptable to point a gun at a person,
even a fake watermelon person as in this case. I can understand
using a watermelon, but not with a face drawn by the child and
given a name!!!

You could always take the child to the local morgue to have a view
of some corpses, but if you do I suggest that you make sure that
you have insurance coverage for the psychiatrist first.

One recent message said to not have the child wear hearing protection,
which I thought was a bit wrong too as you don't want to cause ANY
physical damage to the child. From what I understand the hearing
damage is not generally caused by one incident, but by multiple
incidents and I don't think it is an idea to add even one more to
the list.

You do want to make the point that guns are dangerous and I think it
is an idea to get the idea across that it *can* cause a lot of damage,
but that when properly handled it is not a problem, although the
child should not handle it unless a trained adult is present.
The exact methods that should be used are unknown to me, but it
sure would not be some of what I have heard.

Am I alone in thinking that the above and not always using hearing
protection is WRONG?

Personally I was quite impressed with a demostration of hollowpoints
and semi-wadcutters on some soda cans and I have shot watermelons
before.
						 Kemasa.

Insanity is the best defense.
Sierra Club Leader	NRA Life Member		Pro-freedom	Pro-choice
e-mail address: kemasa@ghost.hac.com

[MODERATOR:  How about it folks?  Teachers will usually tell you that
finding *positive* ways to re-enforce a point are preferred.   (To be
sure, my Daddy's negative feedback was as lasting as it was swift, so
we do not eschew such techniques....)  What alternative do we have out 
there to help with kids?]
From: emory!ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: A gun in the home (UPDATE!)
Date: 16 Dec 92 14:34:55 GMT
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group

In article <9212151312.AA15068@mimsy.cs.UMD.EDU> C08926RC@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu (Rob) writes:
#
#Thanks to all who replied to my 'A gun in the home' post.  Here's
#what happened since then....
#
#It seems I misunderstood my wife - she is now encouraging me to get
#a pistol safe, and she doesn't mind me teaching my daughter at the
#proper time.  She just doesn't want my daughter to know where the
#guns are.
#
#Here's the catch - she does not want a safe that uses a Simplex-type
#lock.  What she wants me to get is a Bio-Scan safe - the kind that
#scans your fingerprints.  I found their ad, which states that they
#start at $157.95.  The maker is Bedford Technologies.
#
#Does anyone have more info on these safes?

They don't scan your fingerprints. They measure the length of your
fingers. They aren't very secure at all, and sometimes they don't
open for *you*. A bad idea IMHO.

Gary
From: swkmorri@nuscc.nus.sg (Perry Morrison (Dr))
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Norinco M14/Mini14/SKS
Date: 17 Dec 92 12:26:34 GMT
Organization: National University of Singapore

I'd like to hear people's views on the relative merits demerits of
Norinco's M-14 copies, Mini-14 (.223) and SKS. I'm looking for a
general purpose rifle for foxes, pigs and maybe even self defence---
eventually. Please address reliability, accuracy, weight, cost (tough
I know), cost to feed it, parts availability in general.

Any help GREATLY appreciated.
perry morrison
From: harp@netcom.com (Gregory O. Harp)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Advice to "newbie" requested
Date: 13 Dec 92 23:12:15 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

I'm starting to get the feeling that I'd like to have a gun around for
home/self defense purposes -- given that the world's going to hell and
all.  1/2 ;)

I'll try to give as good an impression as possible of my wants and
needs, to help focus some of the advice I might receive.  I guess
that, unless judged otherwise, responses should be via email.

First of all, for the legal aspects of any questions I ask, I'm in
Dallas, Texas and I will be moving to Austin late next year.  FWIW, I
live alone in a non-ground-level apartment with a monitored alarm
system.  I'm not really familiar with the gun laws here -- that is I
only know about them via hearsay, and some of that conflicts.

My primary interest is defense of my home.  A secondary objective is
defense within my car, though I have been told that this isn't legal
here -- or at least it's annoyingly difficult to deal with.  I have no
wish to violate the law in any case.  I don't really expect to carry
the gun on my person, as I have been told that concealed weapons
aren't allowed here and an exposed one would be a bit of a cause for
alarm to say the least. ;) Please feel free to correct me in any case.

My experience with guns comes from activities like YMCA Indian Guides
and Boy Scouts.  I've fired a lot of .22 rifles, a couple muskets, and
one shotgun in my life.  Of course, I owned a couple BB/pellet rifles
with which I was a pretty good shot.  I've never fired a "real"
pistol, though I have fired some air pistols.  I'm familiar with gun
safety rules.

My first thoughts about this subject were that a shotgun would be a
good option.  The reasonsing behind that is the intimidation factor of
a perp hearing it being pumped.  Obviously a shotgun isn't as "subtle"
a weapon as a pistol, though.  If it is indeed legal to carry a
firearm in my car it would have to be a pistol.

Other than the legal info I need, I'd like to know about any public
access ranges where I might be able to rent and try out various guns.
My final decision, after all, has to be made based upon what I feel
comfortable with.  I don't have a feel for what I'll be spending yet.

TIA,
  Greg
-- 
-----------------Greg-Harp----------------harp@netcom.com------------------
  "I think I've reached that point / Where every word that you write /
  Of every blood dark sea / And every soul black night / And every dream
  you dream me in / And every perfect free from sin / And burning eyes /
  And hearts on fire / Are just the same old song" -- The Cure