HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cstollen@meltdown.chi.il.us (Carolyn Stollen)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Crowley's Significance?
Date: 13 Aug 92 07:30:58 GMT
Organization: The Meltdown - A Team Star BBS

>My brother asks, isnt a biweekly FAQ (and the existence of no other faqs
here, some kind of implication that this is a Crowley area?

I say, let the fun begin.  I have no problem with sharing this with
Crowleyites.
I tend to agree about the exclusive character of the FAQ and would
suggest, at least such a disclaimer be added to the BEGINNING
of the faq.

I am also not conversant with that language and feel no lack.  I did read a
few pages of some crowley book in the back of someones truck.  That! is a 
story.  I thought Crowley was speaking straight on about energy.
Quite unlike the Golden Dawners I had met.  Quite unlike the man who
drove that truck.  (He had the audacity to tell me that HE was not
going to intitiate me.  As if I would like his energy (spit) had
it been available to me.  Which it was in our knowing each other
and I had never liked him.  Used the name of "Rain."  Played poor
and then "revealed himself as rich."  Claimed to be starting a
community in new Mexico.  How interesting would be a tv show.
"Lives of the (spirituallly) rich and (notso)famous Communities
around new mexico.)

  But I digress.  I would insist that native ways and others be included in
this.
There is always the possiblity of an alt.crowley or even a alt.magic.real

holyness is, BUT WHERE IS it?  

"nothing left to do but smile, smile, smile."
  I definitely include "the grateful dead as a mystical experience"
I havent seen that included in rec.music.gdead
love as a mystical experience
shiva worship
tibetan buddhism (anyone done 10,000 prostrations?  100,000?)
arica, silva, est, scientology (as a mysical route I said)      
surfing, silva, est, scientology(as a mystical route I said),
surfing, anything (imho) but the big 3 (jew,christian,muslim),
or their flamers.
Any "pipe carriers" around?  Any contact with Bear TRibe? et al

The world is so full of a number of things, 
I am sure we should all be as happy as kings.

I can realy feel energy.  I think this not unusual.
Some of the posts here make me wonder.
harmony

.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
cstollen@meltdown.chi.il.us
Citizen of the World.
                            "All is my own Dream."         (TKR)
.. . . . . . . . . . . . . . Tell me yours. . . . . . . . . . .
From: stanley@verga.enet.dec.com (My name is...)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Unity
Date: 14 Aug 92 15:29:40 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


In article <1992Aug13.202445.3813@linus.mitre.org>, m23364@mwunix (James Meritt) writes...
> 
>Has anyone put together a synthesis of the things that work?  NOT what beliefs,
>rituals,... the various magicks have in common but what parts that do something
>are held in common?
> 
> 
>--
>James W. Meritt:  m23364@mwunix.mitre.org - or - jmeritt@rod.mitre.org
>The opinions above are mine.  If anyone else wants to share them, fine.
>They may say so if they wish. The facts "belong" to noone and simply are.

You don't know what works till you try it... there are as many ways as there
are minds to create them.

Some magickians find something that works and use it over and over... leaving
patterns all over reality that others can recognize and even trace back. 
It's better to find a new Way each time.

re Carol (Grateful Dead)

Thanks for recognizing ultimate chaos magick when you see it. :-)
"Nothing left to do but smile, smile, smile... "
From: joshua@CPAC.WASHINGTON.EDU (Joshua Geller)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Another Crowley question
Date: 22 Aug 92 17:18:39 GMT
Organization: Institute for the Study of Ancient Science


Gerald writes:
>BA writes:

>BD> I would never be willing to define Thelemite, since I would never,
>BD> ever, wish to be called such.  I don't like any work of Crowley's that I
>BD> have ever read,

which, you might recall, he admitted way back when was like one.

>BD>ncluding the various holy books.  I don't see what in this
>BD> post could possibly be interpreted as Thelemic.  What did you see as
>BD> Thelemic?

   That you chose your own path, and question all things; and have a tendency
   (from what I have read of your posts) to research things out before making
   your mind up one way or another.

this is a good joke.

josh
From: oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Magical Power(book)
Date: 13 Aug 92 00:39:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <83950120@otter.hpl.hp.com>, cal@otter.hpl.hp.com (Colin Low) writes...

[stuff deleted]
>...I much prefer to present
>the world with the lowest possible expectations, and occasionally exceed 
>them ;-)
> 
>Colin 

Exactly.  So why call something magick when it could just as 
easily be called effective behavior?

- Peggy -
From: amanda@INTERCON.COM (Amanda Walker)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Neurolinguistic Programming (NLP)
Date: 21 Aug 92 10:20:04 GMT

In article <8a_n42n.friday@netcom.com>,
friday@netcom.com (Carol Anne Ogdin) writes:
> May I address you with the honorific, "Madame Vampire?"   :-)

Egads.  Well, I can't stop you :)...


--Amanda
From: Gerald_Del_Campo@sorinc.UUCP (Gerald Del Campo)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: herbal freedom
Distribution: world
Date: 20 Aug 92 14:25:59 PDT
Organization: Shades of Reality BBS - Medford, Oregon

In a message dated Thu 20 Aug 92  5:11, ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A.
Davis-Howe) wrote:

>Senator Hatch, R-Utah, has introduced a new bill, "Health Freedom Act of
>1992", S. 2835.

 BD> Can you get us a copy of the text of this law, please?

The complete proposal is quite long.  I could do one of two things:

1)  Post the pertinent information.

2)  Write the file to ascii where it can be file-requestable here.

Lemme know.  I am glad to be of service.

Love is the Law.
Gerald

-- Via DLG Pro v0.992
From: Gerald_Del_Campo@sorinc.UUCP (Gerald Del Campo)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Unity
Distribution: world
Date: 20 Aug 92 14:14:08 PDT
Organization: Shades of Reality BBS - Medford, Oregon

In a message dated Thu 20 Aug 92  5:10, cward@Think.COM (Christopher)
wrote:

 C> Neither man "discovered" the field but are acknowledged early pioneers.
 C> The problem I have with both is the warped personalities of the men so
 C> color their writings that they can only be interesting historical
 C> footnotes.  

Why do the personalities of the men have to enter into the equation?  I
consider the teachings of the Bible to be quite warped, and certainly worth
questioning.  You seem to subscribe to the idea that a person needws to be
perfect to bring a perfect principle to light.  This is very Xtian outlook.
Crowley was just a man, as was freud, and Jesus, etc.  Why do you expect
them to be any less warped than any other man.

 C> In a highly personal and subjective field like psychology or magic(k),
 C> the personalities of the writers play a much more important role than
 C> in more rigorous fields like physics.

Why?

 C> I am quite pleased that much work has been done by more stable writers
 C> since the writings and work of these two pioneers.  I much prefer to
ponder
 C> these new works rather than the plodding "classic originals".  I should
 C> mention that I specifically left Jung out of the group.  Though much of
 C> Jung's work is a difficult read, it merely requires translation not  
 C> tempering.

I am a fan of Jung myself  :)

You would be surprised how much of these "new works" are simply
regurgitated works of Crowley.

Love is the Law.
Gerald

-- Via DLG Pro v0.992
From: Tagi@cup.portal.com (Tagi Mordred Nagashiva)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Benign magic spells (empathy?)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 09:55:09 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
  <24932@castle.ed.ac.uk>

9208.17 e.v.


Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.  [The operative phrase]
The word of Sin is Restriction.    [The cooperative phrase]



A Kashko quotes and writes, I respond to both here:

In article <57104@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> mcmorris@vet.vet.purdue.edu (brandywine
) writes:
>
>
>	Well, yes, you have never seen my name before, but this is
>something *I* can answer.  Empathy is dangerous business.  Think alot
>before you start throwing empathic spells around.  As a natural
>empath, it can be harmful and DANGEROUS to be able to feel another
>person's feelings.


Response to brandywine:

I don't know what is so dangerous about empathy in comparison with
INSENSITIVITY.  Now sure, the danger is differently DIRECTED.  I mean,
with insensitivity the danger is to everyone ELSE (i.e. more than one
person), where the empathy is only potentially dangerous to those who
are unready to begin sensing what's going on around us.  
	

A. Kashko:

If it bothers you put a cut out in the spell so the level
of empathy is just short of harmful. Or leave it out but give the
person bespelled the knowledge that by perpetuating their hatred
they damage themselves. Personally the type of people I would try it on
are Nazis, KKK, and those people who regard the unemployed/disabled/poor
as sub/nonhuman.


Response:

This seems overly intrusive and smacks of mind control.  'Giving knowledge'
sounds pretty high-handed.  I suggest an 'increase awareness spell'.  That
saves us from worrying about what the 'reality' is and, when it bounces
back (which these kind of meddlesome spells always do) we get a shot
of AWARENESS, rather than DOGMA.  What some people classify as 'hatred'
is simply the resurfacing of repressed anger, rage.  It is healthy to
release this shit, even if some don't like what it restimulates.

	
A. Kashko:

I would like to know such a spell too, although it would be
fun to develop it for oneself. Would it be designed to affect
individuals, groups, or attatch a copy of itself to anyone passing through a 
given public place (shoppping centre, high street, etc), or, perhaps the
nicest, to be transmitted like a virus.


Response:

'Nicest'?  What if I WANT to be an ignorant, insensitive zombie?  Seems
like you are fucking me over rather royally.  Whatever happened to
the freedom to be stupid???

I'm not trying to tell YOU what to do, but your words strike me as very
hypocritical.  You seem to be angry that the KKK and such perpetrate
their brand of 'morality' and you yet are quite willing to do the same
with your own 'correct' path.

If you don't want to get really hurt by this, I suggest you simply
focus on YOURSELF and then set a 'nice' example.  I've heard that
this is how people learn best, rather by COERSION.


Invoke me under my stars.   Love is the law, love under will.


I am I!


Frater I Nigris (666)   [How'd I do, Josh?  :>]
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk (Leo Smith)
Subject: Re: Benign magic spells (empathy?)
Reply-To: shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 10:21:00 +0000

tanj@catnip.berkeley.ca.us (Ren and Stimpy's Love Child) writes..

>Hi there. I was wondering if anyone could recommend a good spell book
>which does not so much deal with the tired chestnuts of love and
>money but deals with some nifty benign social engineering... to
>wit...



I think you will find most of what you need in an ancient grimoire of
the jewish shaman Jesus of Nazareth. I believe it is called the
'Gospel' or some such.

Leo

From: cal@otter.hpl.hp.com (Colin Low)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 22:39:44 GMT
Subject: Re: Magical Power(book)
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Bristol, UK.
From: eddie@hermes.oit.unc.edu (Edward M. Averett)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: "do[ing] stuff" (was Re: Is Magick worth the effort??)
Date: 14 Aug 92 23:19:14 GMT
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill

In article <cstollen.6165@meltdown.chi.il.us> cstollen@meltdown.chi.il.us (Carolyn Stollen) writes:

(What I think of as poetry)

text deleted. ...


Best thing I've seen in days. ..Thanks, I needed that.
From: mascdb@gdr.bath.ac.uk (C D Burdorf)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Merlin Tarot Workshop (and money for magick)
Date: 23 Aug 92 16:04:40 GMT
Distribution: alt
Organization: University of Bath, England

In article <BtC5Au.5t4@acsu.buffalo.edu> oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown) writes:
>>I put all the messages I got from you all together, put them in
>>an envelope and stopped by Stewart's house and slipped it through
>>his mail slot.  If I get any response from him, I will post

>>Chris
>
>
>You know where he lives?  This is great!  

The Merlin Tarot workshop is held at his house.  Bath is a pretty small
town with little crime, so notable people (like Peter Gabriel who
lives in the outskirts) that live here don't mind if people in town
know their place of residence.

As for the money thing that Josh and others were pointing out. 
I'm always suspicious about spending money on magickal training
and seminars, because I know there's quacks.  I read up on
people first.  But saying that I've always felt that the money
was well spent.  There's so many things that are much easier
to communicate in person that don't come through in books.  
I find that feelings and intuition are very important aspects of
magick and most books in the field tend to focus on intellectual
aspects.  It could be why I have a problem with a lot of the postings
in this group.  A lot of it seems to be bogged down in intellectual
details, and my experience in group seminars is that magick is
more about right brain kind of things that intellectualizing can't
appropriately explain.

I've allways felt that I pick up things through a seminar at
a vastly accelerated rate over books.  Also, I think it takes a lot more
self-discipline to learn magick from books than in person.
Finally, I don't know of any great magician that learned their
craft entirely from books.  To my knowledge, the great acheivers
in the field always worked in groups.  Does anyone have a counter
example?

Chris
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 16:51:39 -0400 
From: William Henry Timmins <wt0b+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Magical Power(book)

>        (c) Reality is in here, is mental, and in the ultimate is so
>        connected to the process of perception, that not only are our
>        attempts to come up with a description doomed to failure, but
>        in fact the reality and the description are so linked that
>        any attempt to describe changes the reality....

The problem I have with this is that I used to believe that perception
changed reality.

It didn't work.

I tried over and over, and even now have a similar belief, but it was
never supported by reality.


And don't try that 'well, if your beliefs didn't change reality, you
didn't believe enough!'
I felt I believed strongly, and such an assertion is quite circular.
(It's true because it's true)

-Me
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: Another Crowley question
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 15:18:25 GMT

Gerald_Del_Campo@sorinc.UUCP (Gerald Del Campo) writes:

>In a message dated Tue 11 Aug 92  5:10, ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A.
>Davis-Howe) wrote:

> BD> I don't fear Crowley or his descendents--I just disagree with them a
>lot.  BD> Before making further comments, how about reading some of his
>stuff.
> BD> Either that or just don't comment on him.  He is not the only source
>of
> BD> information on magick, even of Ceremonial magic.  Ignoring his is a
> BD> perfectly reasonable response.  Making patently false accusations is
>not.

> BD>               Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
> BD>                                Br'anArthur

> BD> Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)

>This post has Thelemic overtones, and I mean that in the most respectful
>manner.  I wonder if you could define "Thelemite" for us so that we can
>better understand one another?  :)

>Love is the Law.
>Gerald

>-- Via DLG Pro v0.992


I would never be willing to define Thelemite, since I would never, ever, wish
to be called such.  I don't like any work of Crowley's that I have ever read,
including the various holy books.  I don't see what in this post could possibly
be interpreted as Thelemic.  What did you see as Thelemic?  I may then be able
to relate where I learned that attitude, which will be someplace other than 
Crowley.  There is nothing truely original in Crowley's attitudes, after all.
(Of course, there is nothing truely original in anyones attitudes--"there is
nothing new under the sun".)

              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
                               Br'anArthur

Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: stanley@verga.enet.dec.com (My name is...)
Subject: Re: Duel?
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 15:42:13 GMT


In article <16tipoINNqqr@early-bird.think.com>, cward@Think.COM (Christopher) writes...
>In article <1992Aug19.130951.29700@engage.pko.dec.com>, stanley@verga.enet.dec.com  writes: 
>How about you bring up your half of the barrier sphere and I'll bring up
>mine (so the bystanders aren't hurt) and we'll just throw raw force at each
>other until one is dead.  I get to stand on the mosaic of St. Camber.

Let's play practical jokes on the Republican National Convention instead....
their always good for a laugh. :-)

>Oops, I forgot you're a chaos magician, right?  So, I'll walk the pattern
>and you can call up the Logris and reach into Shadow for whatever you like.

You're not a whole lot of fun, are you? :-)

How about this.... 

A prank (staged by Act Up but no one finds out who the perpetrator was until
they announce it later) during Bush's final speech.  

Lets see....  what would be a good joke?  How about if they arrange to have
hundreds of live chickens let loose in the stadium?  

Pandemonium .... chaos... the Republicans blaming the Democrats... the
Democrats accusing the Republicans of staging it... it's great.. I love it..
... Lords of Chaos.. indulge me in this little prank...

.... the gather together grim and determined... under coats and in bags they
plan their fowl deed.... no clucking is heard above the roar of the right
wing at play.... come forces of chaos and join in our laughter... 
Let the games begin....
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: herbal freedom
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 15:21:14 GMT

Gerald_Del_Campo@sorinc.UUCP (Gerald Del Campo) writes:

>Senator Hatch, R-Utah, has introduced a new bill, "Health Freedom Act of
>1992", S. 2835.
> 
Can you get us a copy of the text of this law, please?

              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
                               Br'anArthur

Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)
From: mascdb@gdr.bath.ac.uk (C D Burdorf)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Detailed notes on Merlin Tarot Workshop with R.J. Stewart
Date: 21 Aug 92 09:57:25 GMT
Distribution: alt
Organization: School of Mathematics, University of Bath, UK

In article <BtB7Lz.HAH@acsu.buffalo.edu> oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown) writes:
>In article <1992Aug21.000542.7490@henson.cc.wwu.edu>, n9140397@henson.cc.wwu.edu (Michael J. Hamilton) writes...
>>In article <1992Aug19.144743.24898@gdr.bath.ac.uk> mascdb@gdr.bath.ac.uk (C D Burdorf) writes:
>>>In article <keYNWJy00iUx05gIcP@andrew.cmu.edu> ak32+@andrew.cmu.edu (Ann Laurel Kopchik) writes:
>

>o The major arcana is great.  
>o The minor arcana boring.   
>o What the $#$@@# are these ace cards!  Like the stag with 3 
>  circles over its head?   Yo, Chris!  Ask RJ why the ace cards are 
>  other deck?  I had to write in the quabala numbers myself in 
>  pencil.  Also, I use Dion Fortune's Mystical quabala to 
>  interpret stuff, especially for the court cards and the minor 
>  arcana, because RJ's book doesn't explain these either.  (I 
>  suspect he was dealing with a tight deadline where the book
>  is concerned.)
>
>
 
I put all the messages I got from you all together, put them in
an envelope and stopped by Stewart's house and slipped it through
his mail slot.  If I get any response from him, I will post
it.

Chris
From: mascdb@gdr.bath.ac.uk (C D Burdorf)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Brainwashing
Date: 13 Aug 92 16:47:41 GMT
Organization: University of Bath, England

In article <1992Aug13.143906.28816@m.cs.uiuc.edu> mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu writes:
>
>(Joshua Geller) posted a long (and thoroughly flawed) article by:
>|> ___
>|>    THE BATTLE FOR YOUR MIND
>|>    by Dick Sutphen 
>|> 
>|>    Persuasion and Brainwashing Techniques Being Used on the Public Today
>
>
>(BTW, therer are lots and lots of other factual errors, misinterpretations,
>and wildly misleading claims in the article.)
>

Like what?  Please be specific.  You blast the article for making statements
that are unsubstantiated and then you follow it with a general statement
that you don't substantiate yourself.  By doing so you create  a great
amount of suspicion for your own credibilty.  It's like saying that
A without B is false, but oh by the way A (without giving B).  Be REAL!

Chris
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: chambers@hal.emba.uvm.edu (Christopher A Chambers)
Subject: Re: [amanda@intercon.com: Re: Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP)]
Organization: University of Vermont, EMBA Computer Facility
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 07:41:34 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.015429.11852@samba.oit.unc.edu> shava@hermes.oit.unc.edu (Shava Nerad Averett) writes:
>
>There are some really interesting ideas in NLP.  I don't have any idea if
>they have anything to do with neuroscience, linguistics, nor meta-
>programming (or any other kind).  But just the concepts of eye movement
>tracing are really interesting...
>
  I will begin by saying that I am by no means a practitioner of NLP. I have
a couple books and tapes that I got fairly cheap from a used book store.

  I also find the eye movement interpretations to be very interesting. Just two
days ago I found myself in a conversation with a person who truely bored me
beyond belief. Thus I found myself tuning out his words, and just watching
what was going on. I suddenly noticed his eye movement. They were going
through exactly the movements predicted by NLP as he was remembering the
various aspects of the story he was narating. I stopped him and questioned
him about what he was thinking about during different parts of his story.
In each case, the appropriate type of memory was being accessed during the
predicted type of eye movement. I was most impressed. I decided that 
perhaps it might be worth digging out the Anthony Robins tapes again.
($5.00 for the entire 12 tape set is a good deal. don't laugh)

  I don't know if the eye movement stuff is part of any other discipline, but
for whatever reason, it does seem to work.  


   ####################################################################
   |        Christopher A. Chambers         | All that we can not see |
   |       (chambers@hal.emba.uvm.edu)      | we call invisible.      |
   |    Computer Science Graduate Student   |   -- The BUGGLES        |
   |    @ the University of Vermont.        |                         |
   ####################################################################
-- 
   ####################################################################
   |        Christopher A. Chambers         | All that we can not see |
   |       (chambers@hal.emba.uvm.edu)      | we call invisible.      |
   |    Computer Science Graduate Student   |   -- The BUGGLES        |
From: knightster+@CMU.EDU (Shawn Clayton Knight)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP)
Date: 19 Aug 92 15:02:00 GMT
	<nb!n6v=.friday@netcom.com>
Organization: Freshman, Physics, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

*annoyance at signal-to-noise ratio on*

>>    how much moola did you spend to become a master practitioner and
>>    trainer (moola == lucre, coin, the long green etc)?
> 
>>josh

>Sufficient answer, josh?
>P.S.:  Did you attend college/university?  How much did YOU pay?

Oh my personal conception of God ...

*annoyance off*

-shawn
Newsgroups: alt.magick