From: pdb059@ipl.jpl.nasa.gov (Paul Bartholomew)
Newsgroups: ca.politics
Subject: Re: My Purpose In Getting NAMBLA Shunned
Date: 28 Aug 92 11:30:55 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Image Processing Lab

In article <11949@optilink.UUCP>, manley@optilink.UUCP (Dave Manley) writes:
> 
> We then have to examine the issues of advocacy and activity.  It is
> clear that one can be an advocate but not be a practitioner. However,
> I imagine that some advocates for, let's pick transvestism, are in
> fact transvestites.  I can then boldly proceed to state that some
> NAMBLA members not only advocate 'consensual' sex with pre-pubescent
> children but actively participate in such practices.  As another
> example, I do not doubt that some, maybe even many, of the supporters
> of NORML use marijuana.
> 
> Question #1. Why am I to believe that NAMBLA is different and that its
>              members are just advocates?  

By our legal code, a man is (supposed to be) considered innocent until proven
guilty.  In addition, child molestation laws are rigorously enforced; mari-
juana laws are far less so.  I would be extremely surprised if the SF police
did not have files on known NAMBLA members.

In any case, you are correct about one thing; there have been members of
NAMBLA arrested for child molestation, I believe.  This is insufficient
grounds for me to deny the group's right to exist, however; just as the
fact that members of the KKK have been arrested for murdering black men
is insufficient grounds for me to deny the group's right to exist.

Now if you can find evidence that the majority of members of NAMBLA are child
molesters, then I will join Clayton's crusade to shut the group down.

It's amazing to me that Clayton has not called for a similar crackdown on the
heterosexual group that is the equivalent of NAMBLA.  Something that many
people are not aware of is that there is a heterosexual group that also advo-
cates abolishing the age of consent laws.  Clayton has been challenged on
this in the past and his response was that the heterosexual community didn't
support their society, while the homosexual community did support NAMBLA.
Since he has never presented convincing evidence of this, his argument falls
apart.

> Question #2. Do you disagree that advocacy of an issue gives it a legitimacy
>              that could encourage individuals to act?

First, I want to make clear the difference between "advocacy of an issue"
and "advocacy of a group's right to exist".  NAMBLA is advocating an issue;
I am advocating their right to exist.

Now, I'm troubled by this question because I honestly don't know the answer.
Does NAMBLA's advocacy of abolishing the age of consent laws encourage indi-
viduals to seek out young children for sex?  *In this case*, I don't think
so, primarily because of NAMBLA's reputation.

> Question #3. Does it make sense for other groups to ally themselves
>              with an extremist group like NAMBLA as is done via
>              Jeff Dauber's inclusion in the "When they came for.."
>              list?  Are they not instead drawing unwanted fire towards
>              themselves as has been displayed by this thread?

No and yes, respectively.  But Jeff Dauber, as he himself will admit, does
not necessarily speak for the homosexual community.  My impression is that
the homosexual community has been distancing itself from NAMBLA for the past
several years--a process that I expect to see continue.  They have been
barred from marching in many Gay Pride parades (even in the SF parade, they
were booed vigorously and did not finish the parade).  From what I've seen
and read, there is not nearly as much support for NAMBLA as Clayton would
like to have everybody to believe.

As for the unwanted fire, Clayton's homophobia is well known.  If it hadn't
been NAMBLA, he'd have found something else to attack.  In fact, he already
has (e.g., his recent postings on S&M and transvestitism).

> dave "why, oh why, did I ever respond to this thread?"

Dunno--probably your latent masochistic tendencies.  :)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Bartholomew          |   "The time has come, the walrus said, to talk of
                          |    many things..."                  Lewis Carroll
pdb059@ipl.jpl.nasa.gov   |   Disclaimer:  Opinions?  What opinions?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Xref: sparky ca.politics:7114 ca.environment:833