From: grossg@patriot.rtp.dg.com (Gross)
Subject: Re: guns and criminals
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 15:33:18 GMT
Organization: Data General Corporation, RTP, NC.

In article <VINSCI.92Aug3195741@nic.nic.funet.fi> vinsci@nic.funet.fi (Leonard Norrgard) writes:
>In article <GERRY.92Aug3104414@onion.cmu.edu> gerry@cmu.edu (Gerry Roston) writes:
>> When you look at statistics related to crime, etc, you will find the
>> following:
>> 1-The US does have a slightly higher murder rate than other countries,
>> although it is typically ranked between 5 and 10 on the list of
>> countries with the highest murder rates.
>> 2-If you remove from the statistics the large US urban regions of NYC,
>> Washington DC, Detroit, you will find that the crime rate in the US is
>> LOWER than many other countries in the world.
>
>Right, remove the top crime locations and, surprise, surprise, your
>crime rate is suddenly better.  To be fair, you should also remove the
>corresponding areas from the countries you're comparing with.  I
>expect that you'll find then that your position on the list hasn't
>changed.

Wrong!!  With those cities removed. America is far less violent than
one is led to believe by the media and the gun-control lobbies.

>> 3-The above mentioned cities
>>  -have the most restricitve gun control laws in the country
>>  -have some of the worst "ghetto" neighborhoods
>> 
>> CONCLUSION: Guns are not the cause of crime.  There is absolutely NO
>> evidence to even suggest a connection between gun ownership and crime.
>> The problems in our country are economic problems.
>
>Of course not, but *when* a *criminal* carries a gun, he's also more
>likely to use it in a stress situation.  And I think the criminal is
>then also very likely to use the gun in a way that law forbids.
>  So you'll probably think that this means that there's no reason to
>outlaw guns for non-criminal persons.  To see why it is a good idea to
>make it harder for non-criminals to get guns, you'll have to think of
>what the criminal was before he went criminal: he was a non-criminal
>of course, and if he planned his crime, he probably had no problem
>getting a gun since all records showed he hasn't commited any crimes.
>The problem is that the records doen't show what plans he really has
>for the gun.

Okay, time for a little history!!  The criminal element does not
simply walk into a gun shop and buy an Uzi, MAC-10, or AK-47.  The
vast majority of weapons used by criminals come from the "Black
Market."  This black market is not only the international one that is
used even by nations, but also the local black markets run by
criminals for criminals.  Guns stolen from legitimate gunowners, from
US military arsenals, and guns smuggled into the country make up the
largest portion of the armament available to the criminals.

When I was a teen living in a large Eastern city, I was able to
obtain a gun for very little effort and money.  I bought a .45
automatic at the age of 13.  A friend of mine bought an M-1 Garand
(replete with clips and ammo) and a 12ga shotgun.  All of this was
purchased from a person two blocks from our house -- illegally.

The situation has improved today.  In the larger cities, obtaining
weapons like fully automatic ones is not a problem for the criminal
class.  They can even obtain grenade launchers, explosives of all
sorts, and more.  The problem is not that these things aren't illegal.
Illegal doesn't matter to a criminal!!

You want to end this problem.  Allow the law-abiding citizens access
to weapons.  Throw criminals who use guns in the commission of a crime
in jail for life, and if they kill, give them death.  You'll see
things start to turn around in short order. 

>The freedom of the state is hardly provided by individuals wearing
>guns anymore, but by the military.

The military does not provide my freedom in the sense that you intend.
If this government ever decided to take away our Constitutional
freedoms and implement some sort of tyranny, the military will serve
the government and not me or other citizens.  The defense of freedom
is up to the individual citizens of this nation.  Collectively we are
the only real defense against the loss of freedom and liberty.  We do
this mainly through the democratic processes we've established.  But
ultimately, it is the armed citizenry that forms the final line of
defense.

To think that it can never come to that is to ignore all of history! 

>Let me see you revolt against the US army with handguns. I can barely
>wait.

If it were merely handguns then you'd have a point.

>Maybe *you* can live in history, but I prefer to live today, in a
>country without lots of unnecessary weapons.

What other parts of the Bill of Rights would you like to surrender to
the tyranny of the immediate soultion!!?  I submit that you are far
more dangerous than I am with all of my weapons!  I refuse to budge on
any freedoms and liberties so dearly won and defended these more than
200 years.

History teaches that those who ignore its lessons are condemned to
repeat history.  Ignore history at your own peril.  Fortunately, there
are more of us who have learned from history than there are of people
like you.


Gene