HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jamie@kauri.vuw.ac.nz (Jamieson Norrish)
Subject: Re: Skills based systems abuse
Organization: /u/student/jamie/.organization
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 04:22:29 GMT
	<JAMIE.92Dec13132000@kauri.vuw.ac.nz>
	<Bz8816.EGJ@watserv2.uwaterloo.ca>

In article <Bz8816.EGJ@watserv2.uwaterloo.ca>
danic@sciborg.uwaterloo.ca (Steve) writes:

   BASE SKILL LEVELS SHOULD BE HIGH ENOUGH TO ENCOURAGE ADVENTURING.

WHY?

   To encourage adventuring to improve skills instead of practising alone,
   the base skill levels should be high enough that they have a chance of
   working.

There is always a chance if it's above zero. :-) In my system, given
positive modifiers, you can succeed without knowing the first thing
about the skill (although you cannot advance in this instance).

   Once a character learns a skill, she should feel confident 
   enough in it to _try_ casting spells in combat or _try_ picking someone's
   pocket.

I wonder why it is that pickpockets are relatively rare. Is it because
most people can't do it to save themselves? That they're too scared of
the consequences if they get caught? That it's not worth the risk?

Also, the learning of the skill includes a fair amount of practice, I
would say, before it is used in a "real situation". Take performance,
whether it's acting or musical or whatever - the learning of the
appropriate skill can take years.

   Instead, players sit in bars and practice skills on
   themselves.  Maybe if the base skill levels started higher, players
   wouldn't feel the need to sit around practising.

Abuse, abuse! :-)

I think that if less emphasis was placed on "adventure", then this
wouldn't be an issue. Those who really want to go out and amaze
everyone with their derring-do will do so, and the rest will get on
with their own lives (with the occassional moments of amazement).
Afterall, being an adventurer is an elite occupation, and one that
takes a lot of luck.

Also, don't forget that ideally the animate dangers that are faced
(I'm thinking primarily combat here) will be just as lousy as most
adventurers. After all, they've got to practice too.

Just for interests sake, I'm thinking of having characters under my
system start of with skills typically in the 0-30 range (percentile).
This, I feel, is quite adequate for most characters.

Jamie
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.admin
From: baljeual@uther.calvin.edu (Alan Baljeu)
Subject: Re: Multiple currencies
Organization: Calvin College
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 19:41:13 GMT

jamie@kauri.vuw.ac.nz (Jamieson Norrish) writes:

>In article <Dec10.003617.64611@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>
>ludwigj@CS.ColoState.EDU (Vilkata (Joe Ludwig)) writes:

>     Another think we're going to put into our system is the capability for
>   multiple currencies.  This means that we will not only be able to handle
>   different values of coins, but also coins from other nations.  In such a

Coins from other nations implies that a given type of money is not 
usable in all locations.  The value of a currency is then based on
how much players want to buy items from places that accept that currency,
versus how much it costs to buy them.

>   system, is it reasonable to simply give the player the best coinage for the
>   value of the total money they are carrying, or should realism be maintained
>   by forcing characters to go to a money changer to get bigger denominations?
>   We are doing this so we can have very good resolution on the money, without
>   forcing fairly wealthy players to deal with large numbers.  (Or the weight 
>   associated with 1,000,000 copper pieces)  

>I'd force people to go to a money changer. But then, I'd also make
>people suffer when it came to having lots of coins. Assuming a metal
>coin system and no banks, I would have very few coins about, the
>commonest by a LONG way being the smallest denominations, with the
>higher value coins being extremely rare. I'd personally love to see a
>game in which barter was more coming than buying with coins (and no,
>not a coded barter system, but one born out of necessity among players
>(ie, no shops/coins within hundreds of miles :). But if coins are
>around, and people are forced to carry them, make them suffer under
>the weight.

If money had restricted use, you would get a very interesting barter system.
Picture this: A certain player has gained quite a proficiency in obtaining
Magical Rubber Armor.  This armor is of high demand, so he decides to
go into business.  In a barter system, he won't take just anything as payment,
but instead will tell people who want his prize to go find him the Quartz 
Stone of Seeing Where People Are, or whatever he wills.  Thus, they go off
on a quest (which you never even coded!) and that certain player uses his
skill in finding Magical Rubber Armor to become very powerful in the
community, through his bartering business.
	This seems to me to add a dimension to the game.

>     Should players be able to keep as many coins in their root
>     inventory(hands), or should they be forced to purchase bags and
>     pouches to keep large amounts of coin in?

>They should have some way of carrying them; maybe in
>bracelets/necklaces, if you get bored with pouches. But I would hate
>to allow players to fit thousands of any sort of coins in bags - even
>if they had enough bags, how would they carry them?

Exactly.

Alan
------

--
	Alan Baljeu
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.admin
From: ludwigj@CS.ColoState.EDU (Vilkata (Joe Ludwig))
Subject: Re: Multiple currencies
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 17:55:42 GMT
Organization: Thealir Construction Company

In rec.games.mud.admin, wcollins@netcom.com (Walter J. Collins) writes:
>Then you have another problem... how do you keep players spending their
>money?  
  When a player has a short sword, leather armor and no shield, they are going
to spend that 100 gold in their hand on better equipment.  Getting players
to spend their money only becomes a problem when they can't buy the things they
want, or when there is simply nothing that they want.  

>Most all mud economies inflate to the point of silliness quickly,
>becoming a dictatorial you-can-only-set-the-item-value-so-high kludge.
  Can you say: Monty Hall?

>(N.B. - what we do is charge coins for *everything*, player levels, 
>guild levels, attribute advancement, resurrection, etc.. and we (strongly :)
>encourage through role-playing donations to various causes in exchange for
>certain benefits..)
  Player donations should improve NPC reactions to that player, but
I can't think of any other benefits they would get.  Training costs money.
Resurrection costs money.  I don't agree that gaining levels should cost for
the same reason that I don't believe that levels should exist :)

>
>Any thoughts on a zero-sum economic system that is easy to conceptualize
>and install?  Sorry, but I won't install something I don't understand.
  We are going to have a very complex economy with PCs and NPCs alike playing 
the role of trader, and running back and forth from the iron mine to the 
smithy making lots of money.  (And just about everywhere else.  Players will
be able to load up a wagon train in one city and take it to another city
without any 'extra' code.)
  What exactly is a zero-sum economic system?

-- 
+--------------------------+-------------------------------------------------+
| Vilkata, the Dark King   | "Science friction burns my fingers, Electricity |
| ludwigj@cs.colostate.edu |  still lingers. Put away that ray gun.  How do  |
| Vilkata@Most MUCKs       |  you martians say... I love you?" -- XTC        |
From: jacob@fy.chalmers.se (Jacob Hallen)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.admin
Subject: Re: Character names and memory
Date: 20 Dec 92 03:50:53 GMT
Organization: Chalmers University of Technology

The sort of system being discussed here has been in use on Genesis
(milou.cd.chalmers.se 2000) for almost a year now. We have managed to
solve all the problems being discussed here, and in my opinion it is
a great asset to the game. I have no plans whatsoever to remove it.
You are welcome to Genesis any time you like to try it out.

In article <hhelanto.724741001@vipunen.hut.fi> hhelanto@vipunen.hut.fi (Henri R Helanto) writes:
>In <BzB5vn.44K@brunel.ac.uk> ee89psw@brunel.ac.uk (Paul S Wain) writes:
>
>>My first though on this was, hey yeah, great idea, but then I thought, ok
>>so I connect to say a MU* and I type:
>
>>WHO
>
>>What response would I get? 0 players? "No-one you know"? A list of 28 entries
>>all reading 'a player'? 

There are 17 people in the game, of these you know:
Ergo the Warrior of Calia and Fang of the Shires, beginner, male hobbit
Capablanca Knight of the Crown, apprentice, male dwarf

>>Also what when someone walks into a room? "Someone has
>>arrived"

A black-eyed menacing hobbit arrives.
A long-armed dirty dwarf arrives.

Players are allowed to choose 2 descriptions out of a set of about 150.
>
>>In principle it is a good idea, BUT it has far too many associated problems. You
>>are unlikely to get "newbies" at any site like that, and yes the success of a
>>mu* does I feel depend on newbies and how readily they are accepted. There is
>>also too much of an opertunity to spoof...
>
>	...Not to mention how hard it would be to catch a THIEF!
>
>	Thief68 is standing here.
>
>	RIDICULOUS!! Same thing about pk'ing and things like that.
>	Whoever got this idea - do you know what names are for ?-) 

This is unbelievably ugly. How do you see from the outside that someone is
a thief? And what is the number doing there? Also, if someone tries to
steal something from you, you should have a chance to see who did it,
based on his thieving skill and your detection ability.
But that stuff is so basic that it surprises me that it surfaces in the
debate.

In conclusion: We exist, we have lots of players, the system works very well.

Jacob Hallen
From: sinister@ac.dal.ca
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.admin
Subject: Re: Character names and memory
Date: 14 Dec 92 09:18:10 -0400
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

In article <JAMIE.92Dec14210334@kauri.vuw.ac.nz>, jamie@kauri.vuw.ac.nz (Jamieson Norrish) writes:
> I think that in terms of roleplaying, restricting information which
> characters have no reason for having would provide a beneficial
> atmosphere in which players would operate. If players wish to chat, or
> just kill things, they can go to a MU* which is more suitable.
> 
> I make no secret of the fact that I am probably catering for a very
> small minority of the total MU* players out there, and that no one
> will share all my views. However, I think some people at least would
> like to see this sort of thing, and so I ask all of you, and not just
> them, how some things could best be achieved.
> 
> Jamie


	With reference to the topic, check out CYBERWORLD;  they have a
system by which when someone you don't know walks into your area all you
see is "Elf 1", or "Troll 3", depending how many there already are in sight.
Until the person <Introduce>s themselves, you don't know their name.  If
you want to know them the next time you meet, you have to <Remember> them.
	I think it works well... 


______________________________________________________________
|                              |                             |
|  Rowwrr @ Dartmud            |  Aka Michel Vaillancourt    |
|  Cyberjack @ Cyberworld      |			     |
|         		       |    Sinister@ac.dal.ca	     |
|                              |    			     |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|   "..In visiting virtual other worlds, we get a better     |
|	understanding of the real world in which we play.."  |
|                         --Myself	                     |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|   Disclaimer:  None needed;  Dalhousie U doesn't think I   |
|          can do that much damage even unsupervised.        |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: skelly@capella.cs.bucknell.edu (sean kelly `94)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.admin
Subject: reality vs. speed
Date: 12 Dec 1992 06:58:15 GMT
Organization: Bucknell University, Lewisburg, PA
NNTP-Posting-Host: capella.cs.bucknell.edu
Keywords: 
	(note, skill is skill with weapon used and combat skill)

	-rand# vs. (victim's skill & agility vs. attacker's skill)
	 to determine if the attacker 'got through the defender's
	 defenses'
	*if so*
	-rand # vs. defender's ac to see if attack penetrates, if fail
	 see *else*.
	*if so*
	-hit, divide dam by ac% (ac is 1-100).
	*else*
	-if rand# was within, say, 20 points of ac, then reduce
	 endurance by (dam / ac%).  If endurance reaches 0, then 
	 do, say, 1 point of hp damage for every 2  remaining.

I want to use endurance (constitution & strength with some modifier)
as a target for these bruises, so using a weapon would also wear
someone out to some degree (it's easier to get your ass kicked 
if your tired).  What I would like to know is if you think adding 
the 'bruise' option will affect speed significantly.  I was considering an 
alternate system that just left that out, if so.

On a unrelated note, what does everyone think about 'unnecessary
stats' like charisma.  Although it helps in dealing w/NPC's, I think
it would be better left out, and let player interaction handle the
situation (player shopkeepers).  Following, in an ideal MU* (mine
anyway), real players would constitute the majority of the population,
with NPC's just added to fill very boring positions that have little
interaction (like a farmer in most scenarios ) or to 'fill out' 
the game to make it seem more real.

Any and all opinions would be appreciated.

-Sean


	

Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.admin
From: brumleve@gauss (Dan Brumleve)
Subject: Re: Character names and memory
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 14:01:50 GMT

jamie@kauri.vuw.ac.nz (Jamieson Norrish) writes:

>Would someone please suggest a feasibly way of restricting character
>knowledge, particularly in regards to the names of other characters?
>As most MU*s stand (although I've heard of exceptions), every
>character knows every other character's name on sight (or even worse,
>straight from the who list). This is easy, and ludicrous. Better is
>having a function for each character which specifies names they know -
>when a character meets another, they can swap something which alerts
>the the code that that character's name is known. This is kludgy and
>artificial.

     Armageddon has it set up this way.

>What is better and still feasible? Have a player give out his dbref
>with a name, so that various names could be given to different people,
>all of whom will recognize her by their own particular name? Or allow
>players to assign any name they like to the dbref - they are likely to
>choose the name that they first hear being used, but not necessarily.
>I quite like this idea, the more I think about it - every character
>would write a short description which would be used for those players
>who haven't assigned a name to that character's dbref.

     I have players enter a 'short description', 'long description', and
an 'extended keyword list', which they need to do just right to be approved
by me.  The 'short descrtiption' is a short text like 'the tall, lanky
elven thief', and the 'long description' is the text people see when other
characters see them standing in the room.  The keyword list is a list of
keywords other characters can use to refer to the character ('elf thief'
in the above case.)  Players aren't able to 'introduce' themselves to
each other in such a way that they see each others' names.  We've only
had a few characters who have inadvertantly used exactly similar short
descriptions before (and their long descriptions made them easy to tell
apart).

>The first problem I see is that it would slow everything down by a
>considerable amount, since every character (object, even?) has its own
>name for every other character. However, there would be some
>uniformity for most characters - if someone is only ever called Jack,
>and refers to himself as Jack, most people aren't likely to label him
>Peter. :-)

Not really.  

>Any comments/criticisms/suggestions?

>Jamie

-Dan
From: drevreck@colargol.edb.tih.no (Lars Syrstad)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.admin
Subject: Re: Skills based systems abuse
Date: 12 Dec 92 21:04:22 GMT
Organization: Colargol, Trondheim College of Engineering
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]

Alan Baljeu (baljeual@uther.calvin.edu) wrote:
: drevreck@colargol.edb.tih.no (Lars Syrstad) writes:

: [Wonderful stuff deleted]

: >And when a character tries to climb that mountain, it would
: >perform better the less fatigued it is. The same would apply
: >to combat - one would not lower one's opponent's hitpoints, but
: >make it more physically fatigued. The more fatigued, the greater 
: >the chance of becoming fatally wounded etc etc.

: But in combat, there is something more than fatigue involved, there is 
: injury.  This doesn't necessarily have to be handled by the hit point system,
: but fatigue just doesn't describe the effects of getting hit on the head
: by a mace.  Without some kind of damage system, combat might just as well
: be a break-dancing competition:  First one to have a heart attack loses!!

You're right of course. :-)

One would need some form of injuries as well. Ihe chance of sustaining 
injuries would of course be modified by fatigue and plenty other stuff...

: >The character's stats (talent) and education might modify how 
: >much any given skill would increase fatigue. A powerful barbarian 
: >might climb mountains all day long with only minor effects, but 
: >might be exhausted after half an hour of reading, while a 
: >under-nourished scholar would experience the opposite.

: Reading decreases a scholar's mental fatigue? Ok.

What about: A scholar might read books all day with only minor effects,
but would be near death by merely looking at that cliff... :-)

: The closer your system is to the way real things work, the easier
: it will be to balance. (I think, never actually built a system.)

Uhm... I'd rather think that the less one cares if the system being
developed is realistic, the easier it is to develop. While trying
to figure out exactly HOW the real world is put together is said
to be quite a monumental task... :-)

: Alan
: 			&-}
: --
: 	Alan Baljeu

Drevreck aka Lars S.
--
From early youth I saw the world through tunnel-vision eyes,
My cloistered mind philosophied and phossilised.
    Sabbat in 'The Clerical Conspiracy'
From: dilger@toadflax.UCDavis.EDU (Michael B. Dilger)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.admin
Subject: Survey, New Mud Format
Date: 16 Dec 92 18:35:01 GMT
Reply-To: dilger@toadflax.UCDavis.EDU (Michael B. Dilger)
Organization: UC Davis, EECS Division of Computer Science

I have been coding a new mud system for the past two years.  I started 
from scratch (i.e., didn't use any code from diku, LP, tinyMUCK, lambdaMOO, 
... (ad infinitum .. almost)) creating my own socket interface, object 
structures and storage, etc. etc.  The new format is intended to support a 
graphical structure, and has deviated significantly from standard MU*s in 
several ways: 1) Communication uses a minimal network protocol - all
commands are predefined as small numbers and no actual text is transferred.
2) The interface is a point-and-click graphical enviornment. 3) The map is 
a 3D array of adjacent locations (called slots), and you have look-ahead 
into adjacent slots (sort-of like the Ultima series does it).

O.K.  now for the meat of this posting.  Most of the readers of this group, 
I assume, have coded parts of muds.  What do you like/dislike about the way 
MU*s are coded/edited/etc? Do you have to take the mud down to add new areas?  
I was planning to create an on-line graphical editor for creation/deletion/
editing of game objects and room descriptions, etc.  Would this be 
advantageous, or do you think it is too restrictive?  Please send me your 
comments, suggestions, flames, etc.  They will be much appreciated.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
   _/     _/  _/_/_/  _/    _/ _/_/_/_/         Jesus Saves
  _/_/ _/_/    _/    _/_/_/   _/_/          ... but Hernando gets
 _/  _/ _/    _/    _/ _/    _/            the rebound... he shoots,
_/     _/  _/_/_/  _/   _/  _/_/_/_/            he scores!!!
Michael Dilger
dilger@toadflax.cs.ucdavis.edu
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.admin
Subject: Re: Multiple currencies
From: jamie@kauri.vuw.ac.nz (Jamieson Norrish)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 00:43:39 GMT
 <baljeual.724102873@uther><JAMIE.92Dec12175417@kauri.vuw.ac.nz> <wo41H0&+ab@atlantis.psu.edu><1992Dec12.172902.9492@ac.dal.ca>
Organization: /u/student/jamie/.organization

In article <1992Dec12.172902.9492@ac.dal.ca> sinister@ac.dal.ca
writes:

	   A good, pre-planned world background will accomplish
   this.....  One thing that lacks in the MUDs I play on is a
   "Rumor-Mill".  As our intrepid adventurer is poking through the
   random book in a library, he finds a hint a the Great Gee-Whiz
   Assault Wand.  "Hmmm," thinks our player, "I wonder if any one has
   even seen this thing?"

Yes, the world should have a full situation built into it in the
beginning. From there, the players can make of it basically what they
will. I don't like the idea of random bit of information appearing,
but it is certainly a good idea from a practical viewpoint, since
otherwise there would just be too much work to do before any players
were allowed on.

Of course, finding all the information about the wand in the above
example is only the beginning. Getting the wand, finding out how it
works, using it, having it stolen, attracting the attention of all
power-hungry people etc etc, is all in the future. All it takes is for
that initial information to be there, and the players should so the
rest (once someone has come upon a good thing, lots of people usually
try to latch on as well... :).

Jamie


Organization: Freshman, H&SS general, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.admin
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 14:24:41 -0500 
From: Adam Darby <ad2n+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Character names and memory

   What about a system in which character's names were visible only to
themselves, and you had to look at a person to get their description? 
Then you could ask them their name, and thereafter you would recognize
them by their description.  
    That might be kinda klunky also, but there's my 2.5 cents.

with love to lead the way,i've found more clouds of grey,than any
russian play could guarantee... if you like harry connick, jr. you are
cool...                    Score 90.4% adam darby purest being on earth
(and sick of it) ratio in effect!                                       
               
                                                        

 
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.admin
From: mouse@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu (der Mouse)
Subject: Re: Skills based systems abuse
Organization: McGill Research Centre for Intelligent Machines
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 01:45:48 GMT

In article <1992Dec12.211928.28481@ugle.unit.no>, drevreck@colargol.edb.tih.no (Lars Syrstad) writes:

> Lock-picking isn't very fatiguing, really.

Hm?  Try it for half an hour sometime.  (On hard locks, ones you have
trouble picking - polishing existing skill is something else.)  I'll
bet that you find your eyes complaining and your hands trembling, and
have to take a rest or you start making mistakes.  I know I do when
doing tasks requiring fine motor control and concentration.

> (Btw: Have you ever ridden a horse? I have.  Once.  And my body ached
> for DAYS afterwards. :-))

It's a matter of what you're used to.  If you'd kept it up for a couple
of weeks, you'd find the aches going away.  I know this happened to me
with aikido - when I let it lapse over the summer, the first couple of
weeks were constant aches, but they went away with practice.

					der Mouse

			    mouse@larry.mcrcim.mcgill.edu