HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Tagi@cup.portal.com (Thyagi Morgoth NagaSiva)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Pentagrams
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 10:47:34 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
  <1992Dec20.034109.12591@wam.umd.edu> <1992Dec21.150016.28481@seas.smu.edu>

9212.21 e.v. [Dark Dark Dark!  Dark Moon plus Winter Solstice!  Happy Days!]


Mitchell writes:

Wait a second! Follow Thyagi's logic out before creating devils that he never
invoked (well, not THIS time anyway)...

To wit, making a syllogism:

1) An inverted pentagram points at the earth;
2) An inverted pentagram symbolizes evil; therefore,
3) The earth is to blame for the evil of the inverted pentagram.

Simple, no?

Of course, you have to realize that Thyagi was JOKING. (Or maybe not. ;) ) I
stand by my earier claim that whether a symbol is evil or not has only to do
with the magician, and the purposes to which he chooses to use it. 


Response:

I was indeed FAR from joking.  I was calling all those no-good, idiotic,
false-faced, twin-tongued 'earth-worshippers' the WORST aspect of Christian!

'Evil' is a Christian concept.  Get with it, y'all.  Your syllogism is
EXACTLY what I implied.  All those who are AFRAID of the point-down
pentacle are just lilly-whites PRETENDING to be aligned with 'earth energies'.
In reality you are the worst form of demons.  Repent before it is too late!


Then again, perhaps 3 could be revised to read:

3) The earth is evil.  [See Josh's comments regarding the logics involved.]




Thyagi
-----------------------------------------------------------
"At its root all language has the character of metaphor,
because no matter what it intends to be about
it remains language, and remains absolutely unlike
whatever it is about."

James P. Carse, _Finite and Infinite Games_
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: jasonp@bungie.prime.com (Jason Pascucci)
Subject: Re: Hello
Organization: Prime Computer R&D
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 18:10:15 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.035145.17849@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>, mcm3s@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU (If you want to know ASK!) writes:
|> I have been disturbed by several posts on this newsgroup tho.  The piece 
|> about the alternate reality in MUDs should have stayed on the alt.mud group.
|> Altho new forms of cybermagick may be starting, the post as I read it was
|> more oriented on the other reality inside the program.  

Why should these things disturb you? All forms of reality
are integrated in our magickal context. What you may personally
believe, (which appears to be that there exists another 'reality inside 
the program') however, is irrevelant, except within the
discussion...it does not bear on the usefulness of the thread. 
Especially so, since you have at least a couple of people who
disagree.

|> I was also wondering if anyone knows where I may be able to find Crowley's
|> third book.  Amazingly our library has the fourth and I think i know where
|> to get the first 2 but it is the third that I have yet to see.  Was it really
|> ever published? If so does anyone know where to get a copy?

Crowley's third book? One might expect you to mean the fourth part
of 'Book Four'. To my knowledge, it never made it beyond
the notes/partial draft stage. Even these don't exist in the
(admittedly incomplete) OTO docs catalog I have. Tagi? Maybe
you can poke your OTO persons, and see if you can dig up these notes. 

(The part 3 was my mistake. According to the document I have
lying here, Book Four, part 3 was published as MiTaP, 
Book Four, part 4 was never published. I honestly thought
AC had done part 4 first, and never did part 3.)

--
Jason R. Pascucci
jasonp@primerd.prime.com
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: drake+@cs.cmu.edu (Drake)
Subject: Re: My answers
Summary: The easy way to morals
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 13:55:34 GMT

oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown) writes:

>>>It would be nice to have a set of rules that worked in all 
>>>situations, but I haven't yet found any.
>> 
>>Why do you say it would be nice?  What, specifically, would be nice
>>about it?
>> 
>
>Easier.

Yes, you are correct there.  Now, can you define "worked in all
situations?"  What criteria would a set of rules have to meet
in order to satisfy you?

				
-- 
Love and Laughter,             | NOTE: Private mail must go explicitly
Xeper and Remanifest,          | to drake@seismo.soar.cs.cmu.edu
                       DRAKE   | or it'll bounce back to you...
From: SL500000@brownvm.brown.edu (Robert Mathiesen)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Heinlein, Magick and Mormonism
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 17:59:08 EST
Organization: Brown University - Providence, Rhode Island  USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: brownvm.brown.edu
News-Software: BNN via BNN_POST v1.0 beta

On the subject of Joseph Smith Jr. (the prophet of the Mormon Church) as a
practicing ceremonial magician (like his father before him) see now the
superb book by J. Michael Quinn, with a title something like _Early Mor-
monism and the Magical World View_, published by Signature Books in Salt
Lake City.  It even gives photographs of the magical knives, talismans and
shewstones preserved in Smith's family and the families of other early
Mormons.  I have heard, but do not know whether it it so, that the author
lost his professorship at Brigham Young Univ. in consequence of this book.

Robert Mathiesen, Brown University, SL500000@BROWNVM
From: rjb@carson.u.washington.edu (LeGrand Cinq-Mars)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: My answers (was Re: ... Definitions of "evil")
Date: 30 Dec 1992 17:35:37 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
NNTP-Posting-Host: carson.u.washington.edu


Thyagi took my point and ran with it...

The term "black magic" can have an ethical or moral interpretation (in
terms of unacceptable ends or means); it can also have what I suppose
could be called an esthetic or (forgive my language) psychological
interpretation, in terms of activities or intentions that are somehow
"gothic," that explore The Sinister, The Ominous, The Shadow (etc).

It is true that evil (ethically/morally unacceptable) acts and
shadow (ominous, sinister, or distasteful) acts are not always
different -- but the same can can be said of evil acts and what we
might call daylight (comfortable, proper, and tasteful) acts.

There are of course people who equate daylight and good -- and others
who (perhaps reacting against the first sort) simply equate daylight with 
evil (ethically unacceptable, remember, in terms of the distinctions
I've been working with).  But the profusion of counterexamples to
both of these moves makes any automatic link between the two categories
hard to support.  (Not impossible, of course.)

I cannot see that there is any simple set of rules that will get from
one set of categories to the other.  In other words, knowing how an action
is situated in the ethical realm doesn't mean that one can automatically know
how it will be situated in the esthetic realm, or vice versa.

Some day, when I have more time to fiddle with things, I'll post Machen's
discussion of this point (from the frame story to "The White People").

The technical (magical) question is this:  what is the precedence
relationship between these two realms for a practitioner?  (This
question can be read descriptively or prescriptively!)  Does (or can
or should) one take (on some or all occasions) precedence over the other?
Or are they independent (disjunct)?

Thus one might say that ethical considerations are primary:  that although
unethical activities might lead effectively to magical or mystical states,
ethical considerations should take precedence.  Or, one might say that
esthetic or experiential considerations are primary:  that even a great
crime is holy if it leads to God, and that the magical or spiritual
context takes precedence.  Or one might say that they are disjunct, that
the mystical or magical attainment should be recognized, and the crime
dealt with by the secular arm.  We might, for convenience, give these
attitudes the names Classical, Romantic, and Modern, respectively.

Consider, then, some magical Jeffrey Dahmer (whose love, sweet love, was
called a crime), with a fridge full of mandrake roots and holy celtic
heads.  Which perspective seems most (as they say) appropriate?

Casuistically,

               --LeGrand

{Does it seem that the Classical and Modern fall into one group, and the
Romantic into another?  Would  a Thelemic perspective be totally
different, or would it be a subset of the Romantic?  Or could a Thelemic
perspective be either Roimantic or Modern?}
From: locklin@titan.ucc.umass.edu (Lupo The Butcher=)
Subject: Re: Pentagrams
Organization: Campus Crusade for Cthulhu
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 03:59:12 GMT
X-Posted-From: titan.ucc.umass.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1992Dec23.013634.25055@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com> billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
>locklin@titan.ucc.umass.edu (Lupo the Butcher) writes:
>
>: and "righteousness" and other such artificialities. By and large christianity
>: IS "wrong" in that it is based on fallacies, lies, historical innacuracies
>: & delusions. For more on this see alt.atheist or (occasionally) alt.satanism.
>
>And you don't think that the pagan faiths are not? If so, then you have a 
>lot of reading to do.

Well!
SOMEONE seems to have had a shitty day!

I am well aware of the fast that most modern earth/pagan cults are based on
fallacies, lies & historical innacuracies, in fact I posted an article to this
effect on alt.satanism not more that 3 weeks ago.
The differnce is, I am a member of a "pagan sect" that _realizes_ its history,
or lack therof. I assume many (I wish most) pagans are aware that their 
religions were started in the 1960's as a part of a counterculture fad. Shit,
the Church of All Worlds, biggest & most influential pagan sect (according to
the encyclopedia of american religions) in this country, is based on a science
fiction story! *Thou Art God*

As far as lies & delusions, while this is inherently part of any sect, there
is certainly a lesser incidence of this type of thing among the (organized)
satanists. (barring the ONA of course)

-Lupo the Butcher
From: mimir@hardy.u.washington.edu (Al Billings)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: My postings of Orgone Committee Stuff
Date: 28 Dec 1992 04:07:09 GMT
Organization: The Friends of Loki Society
NNTP-Posting-Host: hardy.u.washington.edu

In article <1992Dec27.082756.5159@primerd.prime.com> jasonp@bungie.Prime.Com (Jason Pascucci) writes:
>We find ourselves not totally repulsed by this (quite potentially 
>mythical) idiological group of workers, but are thus far fairly 
>unimpressed.Their purpose is enough clear, their intent easily 
>enough disentangled. We recommend a more serious study of 
>discordianism. 

 Well, I said they exist. If you don't believe, write to them, dumbshit. I
didn't spend all that time posting files to jerk your chain. They've been
around for several years and have an echo (they equivilant of a newsgroup)
on the network my BBS is on.

Wassail,
G.G.

Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: Pentagrams
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 08:54:54 GMT

locklin@titan.ucc.umass.edu (Lupo The Butcher=) writes:
: In article <1992Dec23.013634.25055@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com> billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
: >: and "righteousness" and other such artificialities. By and large christianity
: >: IS "wrong" in that it is based on fallacies, lies, historical innacuracies
: >: & delusions. For more on this see alt.atheist or (occasionally) alt.satanism.
: >
: >And you don't think that the pagan faiths are not? If so, then you have a 
: >lot of reading to do.
: 
: Well!
: SOMEONE seems to have had a shitty day!

Nope - I just believe that the same criteria should be used to judge
all - if you are going to judge at all.

: I am well aware of the fast that most modern earth/pagan cults are based on
: fallacies, lies & historical innacuracies, in fact I posted an article to this
: effect on alt.satanism not more that 3 weeks ago.
: The differnce is, I am a member of a "pagan sect" that _realizes_ its history,
: or lack therof. I assume many (I wish most) pagans are aware that their 
: religions were started in the 1960's as a part of a counterculture fad. Shit,
: the Church of All Worlds, biggest & most influential pagan sect (according to
: the encyclopedia of american religions) in this country, is based on a science
: fiction story! *Thou Art God*

The point was - does this make the pagan faiths "wrong"? If not, then why 
does the same weakness make Christianity "wrong".

: As far as lies & delusions, while this is inherently part of any sect, there
: is certainly a lesser incidence of this type of thing among the (organized)
: satanists. (barring the ONA of course)

Delusions maybe. Lies? I don't think that I would state that they are
"inherently part of any sect".

Bill
From: luikero@pcuf.fi (Lauri Kero)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Visions, Multimedia Tarot
Date: 1 Jan 93 19:50:51 GMT
Organization: The PC-users of Finland


        I just read from a Finnish computer-magazine that LifeStyle
        Software has made a series of software called "Special
        Interest".
        Among five programs, it includes "Visions" and "Multimedia
        Tarot". "Visions" is about astrology, with thich you can create
        different types of people and horoscopes. That doesn't sound
        impossible to me, if I am correct about what astrology is.
        BUT, "Multimedia Tarot", it that doesn't sound like it would
        work, I don't think I'd recommend anyone to seriously consult
        it, unless it has, like I expect, only the positive cards of the
        Tarot deck.
 
        Wonder if anyone will ever _buy_ those particular programs...
 
 
-- luikero@pcuf.fi (Lauri Kero)   (If someone is interested, the
                                  other programs in the series are
                                  named: "Diet Pro", "Golf Companion",
                                  "Cholestrol", "Bridge Companion")
                                  (Or should I have written the names
                                  between '_'s? If someone wants to mail
                                  me the reason why, feel free but be
                                  brief, and happy of course :-))
                                  (Should I have posted to some other
                                  group?)
                                  (Should I save this article now?)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: Singin' Those Apocalypse Blues
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 01:08:59 GMT

grimoire@byron.u.washington.edu (John Greer) writes:
(John's comments are preceeded by ':')
: >> 
: >> a) in order to make it your group is going to have to have sources of food
: >> and other resources in its control that will meet its needs for the
: >> indefinite future.  That doesn't mean huge stockpiles -- it means having 
: >> the necessary skills to create those resources out of naturally occurring
: >> raw materials.  Farming is an obvious example.  You'll want some stored
: >> food, in case the processes of collapse involve changes in the weather
: >> patterns sufficient to wreck your crops a couple of years running, but
: >> beyond that you're going to want to concentrate on learning how to produce
: >> food, not just living off an irreplaceable backlog.

You had better concentrate more on finding ways to protect your production.
Otherwise, others will take it away from you.

... delided ...

: >A year and a half's supply of freeze dried gunk is a hell of a 
: >lot of food to be stockpiling.  That alone would probably put you in  
: >the "crazy survivalist" camp in the eyes of your neighbors.
: >
: 
: True enough.  And you're quite correct that stored food has an important
: place in this kind of planning.  Instead of waiting until you have to
: depend on your farming for survival to start making your mistakes and 
: figuring out how to handle a survival situation, though, why not get a head
: start on it?  Start working on the gardening and preserving skills, and
: so it as if it were for real -- for example, no rubber rings even though
: the supermarket still stocks them.
: 
: Other than that, though, point well made.

So, why do you have to tell the neighbors about your cache?

Bill
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: drake+@cs.cmu.edu (Drake)
Subject: Re: My answers (was Re: ... Definitions of "evil")
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 07:24:40 GMT

oispeggy@ubvmsc.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown) writes:

>It would be nice to have a set of rules that worked in all 
>situations, but I haven't yet found any.

Why do you say it would be nice?  What, specifically, would be nice
about it?

-- 
Love and Laughter,             | NOTE: Private mail must go explicitly
Xeper and Remanifest,          | to drake@seismo.soar.cs.cmu.edu
                       DRAKE   | or it'll bounce back to you...
Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.satanism
From: locklin@titan.ucc.umass.edu ( )
Subject: Re: Singin' Those Apocalypse Blues
Keywords: gloom doom magic survival
Organization: Campus Crusade for Cthulhu
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 00:46:26 GMT
X-Posted-From: titan.ucc.umass.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1992Dec21.235213.15588@u.washington.edu> grimoire@byron.u.washington.edu (John Greer) writes:
>In article <BzFoB1.3yD@acsu.buffalo.edu> oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown) writes:
>>
>>These people you know who are scarfing land, are they doing it 
>>because they also believe in this impending disaster?  If so, 
>>could you describe these people in more detail.  (I don't know 
>>anyone that like that, so I'm curious.)
>>
>>- Peggy -
>
>
>Actually, you quite possibly do know someone like that; a lot of the folks
>I know who are making preparations of this sort aren't particularly public
>about it.  (There are some interesting similarities between the survival
>subculture and the magical subculture in this society, possibly having a 
>lot to do with the fact that most people think both groups are stark staring 
>crazy.)

On this note, I have been reading a couple of "Black Flame" magazines lately.
This particular magickal subculture, the Church of Satan, (much to my suprise 
actually) seems to have a strong "survivallist" bent. A couple of the articles
dealt with the L.A. riots as a prophecy of things to come. They seem to 
envisage some sort of Ayn Rand style apocalypse of the great unwashed
pillaging the productive people. Presumably, the satanists would come out ahead
at the end of such an apocalypse & be masters of a very different "new world
order"; The Satanic Aeon. It seems to be a rather fertile topic for them;
many articles dealt indirectly with the idea of an apocalypse by outlining
some of the aspects of a Satanist run society. One article dealt
with small vs large caliber handguns and their relative stopping powers
when used on "drug-crazed sickoes". 

Interesting that the "left-hand path" has so much in common with "right-wing" 
politics of the libertarian type (nyuk, nyuk, nyuk).

Another note on this, Kurt Saxon, author of innumerable books on improvised
weaponry & all around survivalist guru is a preist in the Church of Satan.
Imagine, I had his book, the "Poor Man's Armorer" for all these years & it was
written by a _Satanist_. Perhaps it had some subliminal mantra in it that
sent me in this direction ;).

ye servante of ye great olde ones....
-Scott
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: sfoley@uumeme.chi.il.us (Sean M. Foley)
Subject: Re: Pentagrams
Organization: UUMEME Public Access Xenix
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 14:04:58 GMT
Keywords: Pentagrams

In article <BzL6FC.GLr@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:
>Christianity, like all religions, is neither right nor wrong.  It simply is
>a vessel for individuals.  I would agree that the *organisations* which laim
>to be Christianity are wrong, but they aren't the religion no matter how often
>they claim to be.
 
 Agreed.. I was refering to mainly the organizations that are "christian"
as most practicioners of christianity belong to them.. Not all.. But, most..
 A bad case of sweeping generality.. Apologies..
 
 -Sean
 
-- 
| sfoley@uumeme.chi.il.us |       I only look like I have a clue.           |
 -  Is it not amazing that so many religions have stolen symbols from other  -
 - religions that they despise? It almost makes you think :                  -
 - "What are they fighting about? They look the same to me!"                 -
From: mike.mcaulay@spacebbs.com (Mike Mcaulay) 
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: ABRA-MELIN QUERY
Date: 30 Dec 92 17:41:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: SPACE BBS - Menlo Park, CA - 10 Lines + 4gB - 415-323-4193
Reply-To: mike.mcaulay@spacebbs.com (Mike Mcaulay) 

I'd like to hear opinions on the feasibility of performing the
Abra-Melin working while simultaneously carrying on one's daily life.
Barring a financial windfall from unforeseen quarters I am at a loss to
see how I will ever be able to arrange to have six months in which to
withdraw from distractions and interruptions.

M.
                                                           
----
SPACE BBS - Menlo Park, CA - 10 Lines - BoardWatch Top Ten BBS
415-323-4193 (v.32bis) - 4gB (50,000 files) + Wx, UPI News, etc.
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: mark.terka@rose.com (mark terka)
Subject: Re: Sex? Magic??
Organization: Rose Media Inc, Toronto, Ontario.
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 04:31:56 GMT
X-Gated-By: Usenet <==> RoseMail Gateway (v1.70)


Date Entered: 01-02-93 23:28
 Oi> Maybe the people involved were not brainwashed and find the 
 Oi> activity useful.  Do you suggest people only do things the Public 
 Oi> would approve of?  

Not at all....which is likely why more mainstream groups (ie Thelema)
are essentially secret societies with fairly extensive initiation/grade
requirements. For the few times the rites are performed in a temple before
a congregation ALL present are prepared for the symbolism by knowing the
philosophy behind it.

And (challenge me with examples if you think I'm wrong) the majority of
sex rites that would take place in temple between HP/HPS are between
individuals already in a committed relationship.

But what the author was postulating was that the rites used by this sect
are a form of mind control over the members....not in keeping with any
set of philosophy or codes.

 Oi> The Public will probably think all pagans and mages are loons 
 Oi> regardless of what they do (or don't do).  

So whats your point? The public at one time thought homosexuality was
strange and repugnant...but over time gays have received more acceptance
into the community of man than before.

As well, I'm sure Eastern religions were looked down on with disdain but
again over time they gained increasing acceptance in Western Society...and
there is no difference in the relationship of, say Hinduism to Christianity
than Paganism to Christianity. Over time Paganism will gain greater
acceptance and tolerance in society.

But the cause sure isn't helped by lurid tales of sexual brainwashing by
obscure cults...


... ----->|*  MARK!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
---
   RM 2.00 : RoseNet<=>Usenet Gateway : Rose Media 416-733-2285
From: spb0457@rigel.tamu.edu (SubGenius)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: The TeXBook of Lies, v2.0 announcement
Date: 31 Dec 1992 17:17 CST
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: rigel.tamu.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    


I just completed version 2.0 of _The Book of Lies_ in TeX after recieving
a list of numerous typos in the previous version(s) found by Benedikt R.,
who was kind enough to note said errors and EMAIL me a list of them.

These corrections have been made, and the new version of _The Book of Lies_
is now at slopoke.

Keep them comments commin'.








Yours etc.,




SubGenius


Newsgroups: alt.magick