From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: Isaiah does not prophesy Christ, was A Sharp Contrast ...
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
	<78497@hydra.gatech.EDU>
Date: 18 Dec 1992 00:54:31 UTC

In article <78497@hydra.gatech.EDU> 
rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts) writes:
>Or do you mean the verse that says something to the effect of "for unto
>you a child is born and the government shall be upon his shoulders
>and he shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting
>Father, Prince of Peace and his kingdom will see no end" - is this
>the verse you are referring to?

Isaiah9:5(JPS): For a child has been born to us, a son has been given
us. And authority has settled on his shoulders. He has been named: "The
Mighty God is planning grace;(d) The Eternal Father, a peaceable ruler"
- (6) In token of abundant authority and of peace without limit upon
David's throne and kingdom, that it may be firmly established, in
justice and in equity, now and evermore. The zeal of the LORD of Hosts
shall bring this to pass.
---
d: As in 25.1

>Oh, It seems that I keep missing your (PH's) explanation.  Why is it 
>that this JPS translation is superior to say the NASB or NIV or even
>the KJV?  

We've covered this before. Most if not all other translations put too
much "faith" in the Greek Septuagint translation or don't spend the time
required to translate a difficult text across different language
families.

>It seems that you believe/know that these translators of the JPS
>have mastered both Hebrew and English, but yet no one else seems
>to be able to do that.  

What? It's not a trivial matter to translate the Hebrew Scriptures into
English. If I recall correctly, the JPS team took ten years just to
translate the Torah. Again, we've covered this all before, I can't
believe you've forgotten, or perhaps you're just not interested in the
truth.

>I've got another question, for I seemed to have missed your
>statements on this topic, too.  What writtings do you consider
>to be Scripture?  Is it the OT only?  Help me out here.  Are you
>Jewish?

Non sequitur.

>Also, you seem to be able to pick out a few key words within Isaiah 53
>and so explain away the whole passage - do you really think the
>rest of it has nothing to do with Jesus, who is Christ the Lord.

Do you really think it has *anything* to do with the Christian Jesus: Son
of God, God, Son of the Virgin Mary, died on the cross, resurrected
several days later? Are you at all interested in the truth or do you
prefer to keep the wool pulled over your eyes?

>    Isaiah 53 (NIV)   Who has believed our message and to whom has 
>    the arm of the LORD been revealed? {2} He grew up before him 
>    like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground. He had 
>    no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his 
>    appearance that we should desire him. {3} He was despised and 
>    rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. 
>    Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we 
>    esteemed him not. {4} Surely he took up our infirmities and 
>    carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, 
>    smitten by him, and afflicted. {5} But he was pierced for our 
>    transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the 
>    punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds 
>    we are healed. {6} We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of 
>    us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the 
>    iniquity of us all. {7} He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he 
>    did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, 
>    and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open 
>    his mouth. {8} By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And 
>    who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the 
>    land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was 
>    stricken. {9} He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with 
>    the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was 
>    any deceit in his mouth. {10} Yet it was the Lord's will to 
>    crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his 
>    life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his 
>    days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand. 
>    {11} After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of 
>    life and be satisfied ; by his knowledge my righteous servant 
>    will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. 
>    {12} Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he 
>    will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out 
>    his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. 
>    For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the 
>    transgressors. 

Isaiah53(JPS): (1) "Who can believe what we have heard? Upon whom has
(a-)the arm of the LORD(-a) been revealed? (2) For he has grown, by
His favor, like a tree crown, like a tree trunk out of arid ground. He
had no form or beauty, that we should look at him: No charm, that we
should find him pleasing. (3) He was despised, (b-)shunned by men,(-b)
a man of suffering, familiar with disease. (c-)As one who hid his face
from us,(-c) He was despised, we held him of no account. (4) Yet it was
our sickness that he was bearing, our suffering that he endured. We
accounted him plagued, smitten and afflicted by God; (5) But he was
wounded because of our sins, crushed because of our iniquities. He bore
the chastisement that made us whole, and by his bruises we were healed.
(6) We all went astray like sheep, each going his own way; and the LORD
visited upon him the guilt of all of us." 
(7) He was maltreated, yet he was submissive. He did not open his mouth;
like a sheep being led to slaughter, like a ewe, dumb before those who
shear her, he did not open his mouth. (8) By oppressive judgement he was
taken away; (b-)Who could describe his abode?(-b) For he was cut off
from the land of the living, through the sin of my people, who deserved
the punishment. (9) And his grave was set among the wicked; (d-)And
with the rich, in his death(-d) -- Though he had done no injustice and
had spoken no falsehood. (10) But the LORD chose to crush him (b-)by
disease, that, if he made himself an offering for guilt,(-b) he might
see offspring(e) and have long life, and that through him the LORD's
purpose might prosper. (11) Out of his anguish he shall see it;(f) He
shall enjoy it to the full through his devotion.(g)
"My righteous servant makes the many righteous, it is their punishment
that he bears; (12) Assuredly, I will give him the many as his portion,
he shall receive the multitude as his spoil. For he exposed himself to
death and was numbered among the sinners, whereas he bore the guilt of
the many and made intercession for sinners."
---
a-a: I.e., the vindication which the arm of the LORD effects.
b-b: Meaning of Hebrew uncertain.
c-c: I.e., as a leper; cf. Lev. 13.45 ff.
d-d: Emendation yields "And his tomb with evildoers."
e: Emendation yields "His arm," i.e. His vindication; cf. v.1 with note.
f. I.e., the arm of the LORD; see preceding note.
g. For this sense of da`ath see 11.2,9.

Review:
1) "The arm of the LORD" has been revealed to Jesus? Where does it say
this in the NT?
2) No form or beauty or charm, not found pleasing. Is this Jesus?
3) "Familiar with disease?" How was Jesus familiar with disease? "As one
who hid his face from us," i.e. as a leper? Jesus was as a leper?
4) "Plagued, smitten and afflicted by God?" How could Jesus be afflicted
by God if you claim he is God?
5) "Crushed?" Where was Jesus crushed? "Bruises?" Where was Jesus bruised?
6) "And the LORD visited upon him the guilt of all of us?" Maybe.
7) "He did not open his mouth?" Is this true? Jesus said nothing?
8) "Cut off from the land of the living?" Jesus was cut off from the
land of the living? Where did he go? The land of the dead?
9) "And his grave was set among the wicked?" Jesus' grave, where is that?
10) "The LORD chose to crush him by disease ..." Jesus was crushed by
disease? What disease exactly? And, "he might see offspring?"
11) "Through his devotion?" But, you claim that Jesus is God, Jesus'
devotion to himself?
12) "... the many as his portion ... the multitude as his spoil." How
does this partitioning of the spoils of battle pertain to Jesus? "And
made intercession for sinners," or served as the mediator between God
and man. That's a prophet, a messiah. Yet you claim that Jesus *is* God
in human form?