From: dpage@ra.csc.ti.com (Doug Page)
Subject: Re: Religious rights and responsibilities
Organization: Texas Instruments
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 20:14:08 GMT

In article <1992Oct01.172424.110207@zeus.calpoly.edu>, swoodwar@zeus.calpoly.edu (Null Cypher) writes:
Null Cypher says:
|> phurley@tamu.edu (Philip W. Hurley) had the unmitigated audacity to say:
|> 
|> [lots deleted]
|> >
|> >"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation 
|> >was founded not by religionists but by Christians; not on religions but on 
|> >the gospel of Jesus Christ"
|> >					Patrick Henry
|> >
|> >"The church must take right ground in regard to politics. Politics are part 
|> >of a religion in a country as this and Christians must do their duty to the 
|> >country as part of their duty to God. God will bless or curse this nation 
|> >according to the course that Christians take in politics."
|> >					Charles Finney
|> >
|> >"The highest glory of the American Revolution was this:  that it connected 
|> >in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the 
|> >principles of Christianity."
|> >					John Quincy Adams
|> >
|> >"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers and it is the 
|> >duty as well as the priviledge and interest of our Christian nation to 
|> >select and prefer Christians for their rulers."
|> >			John Jay, first Cheif Justice of the Supreme Court
|> >
|> >"Reason and experience both, forbid us to expect that national morality can 
|> >prevail in exclusion of religious principle."
|> >					George Washington
|> 
|> "The United States is in no sense founded upon the Christian doctrine."
|>                                         George Washington
|> 
|> "It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no
|> god.  It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
|>                                         Thomas Jefferson
|> 
|> "I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the
|> Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant
|> Church, nor by any church that I know of.  My own mind is my own church."
|>                                         Thomas Paine
|> 
|> "I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."
|>                                         Thomas Jefferson
|> 
|> "The Bible is not my book, and Christianity is not my religion.  I could
|> never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma."
|>                                         Abraham Lincoln
|> 
|> 
|> (not all of these quotes are relevant to what you posted but I thought
|> I'd type in the whole batch - taken from "The Real Frank Zappa Book")

This is further proof that liberals love being revisionists by
misquoting or quoting out of context.  Zappa's book is not unlike the mythical
report in Pravda some years ago which stated: "Yesterday the USSR 400 meter
relay team finished second in a race of world class teams.  This was a major
accomplishment considering the opposition.  The USA team only finished next to
last."  While the story was "accurate", essential details were left out in
order to present a picture of the events favorable to the USSR.  The truth of
the matter was that there were only two teams racing (the USA and the USSR),
and the USA had won the race.  William James once described the approach
that Zappa has long used when he said, "There is nothing so absurd but if you
repeat if often enough people will believe it."

It isn't too surprising that there are many who fall for such garbage since it
might be considered "promotion of a state religion" to quote accurately the
founding fathers in public schools.  After all, virtually all of the members
of the Constitutional Convention were required by their state constitutions
(which most had had a hand in writing as well) to swear that they were
Christians.  The only member of the Constitutional Convention who did not
claim to be a Christian was Franklin (a self professed "deist").  And the
words and actions of Franklin even at that convention and later raise question
as to whether he was actually a deist or simply used that profession as an
excuse for his excentricities.  James Wilson, also a delegate from
Pennsylvania, claimed to be an Episcopalian/Deist.  This is interesting since
they had to meet the following requirement of the Pennsylvania constitution to
serve:

  "Frame of Government, Section 10.  And each member [of the legislature],
   before he takes his seat, shall make and subscribe to the following
   declaration, viz: "I do believe in one God, the Creator and Governour of
   the universe, the rewarder of the good and the punisher of the wicked, and
   I do acknowledge the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by
   Divine Inspiration."  ("Sources and Documents Illustrating the American
   Revolution 1764-1788 and the Formation of the Federal Constitution," S.E.
   Morison, ed., (NY: Oxford University Press, 1923), p. 166)

This means that both Franklin and Wilson either lied to hold office, or were
not true deists (re, the "Governour of the universe," and the "Divine
Inspiration" of the Bible).

Now maybe we should look at the truth:

First a little George Washington background:

   George Washington wrote Thomas Nelson: "The hand of Providence has been so
   conspicuous in all this, that he must be worse than an infidel that lacks
   faith, and more than wicked , that has not gratitude enough to acknowledge
   his obligations." (George Washington, "The Writings of Washington, John C.
   Fitzpatrick, ed. (Washington, D.C.: US Government Printing Office, 1932),
   Vol. XII, p.343, May 2 1778.)

   BTW, I am also including the reference for the Washington quote that you
   disregard: (George Washington, "The Writings of Washington," Jared Sparks,
   ed. (Boston: American Stationer's Company, 1838), Vol. XVIII, p.452, from a
   letter on June 8, 1783.)

   A little quote to the troops at Valley Forge: "To the distinguished
   character of Patriot, it should be our highest Glory to add the more
   distinguished Character of Christian." (George Washington, "The Writings of
   Washington," John C.  Fitzpatrick, ed. (Washington, D.C.: US Government
   Printing Office, 1932), Vol. XI, p.343, May 2, 1778.)

   On May 12, 1779, President George Washington assured the Chiefs of the
   Deleware Indian tribe that had brought him three Indian youth to be
   educated in American schools that "Congress...will look upon them as their
   own children."  He further added: "You do well to wish to learn our arts
   and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ.  These will
   make you a greater and happier people than you are.  Congress will do every
   thing they can to assist you in this wise intention." (George Washington,
   "The Writings of Washington," John C. Fitzpatrick, ed. (Washington, D.C.:
   US Government Printing Office, 1932), Vol. XV, p.55, from speech to
   Delaware Indian Chiefs on May 12, 1779.)

   What a shame that George Washington signed into law the Northwest Ordinance
   on August 4, 1789 which contains the following in Article III: "Religion,
   morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the
   happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be
   encouraged."  ("Documents of American History," Henery S. Commager, ed.,(NY:
   Appleton-Century-Crofts, Inc., 1948), p.131.)

   (And let us not forget that it was George Washington who appointed John Jay,
    who was quoted above, to the Supreme Court.)

A little of good 'ole Thomas Jefferson:

   First let's let Mr. Jefferson's supporters during his Presidential campaign
   against John Adams address the accusations that TJ was a Deist.  In the
   pamphlet written by Tunis Wortman, "A Solemn Address to the Christians and
   Patriots upon the Approaching Election of a President of the United
   States," it says: "That the charge of deism...is false, scandalous and
   malicious -- That there is not a single passage in the "Notes on Virginia,"
   or any of Mr. Jefferson's writings, repugnant to Christianity; but on the
   contrary, in every respect, favourable to it."

   Where did Jefferson's 'separation of church and state' come from?  It was a
   Danbury Baptist minister named Roger Williams writting to President
   Jefferson regarding his denominaton's concern over rumors that a particular
   denomination was soon to be recognized as the national denomination.  To
   quote Williams: "When they have opened the gap in the hedge or wall of
   separation between the garden of the church and the wilderness of the
   world, God hath ever brok down the wall itself....And that there fore if He
   will eer please to restore His garden and paradise again, it must of
   necessity be walled in peculiarily unto Himself from the world..." (John
   Eidsmoe, "Christianity and the Conststution," (MI: Baker Book House, 1987),
   p.243).  In his response to the Danbury Baptists' concerns, Jefferson
   wrote:"I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American
   people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting
   the establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,"
   thus building a wall of separation between Church and State"  (Thomas
   Jefferson, "Jefferson Writings," Merrill D. Peterson, ed. (NY: Literary
   Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), p. 510, January 1, 1802; see
   also Reynolds v. U.S. 164 (1878).  Jefferson was clearly attempting to
   assure the Danbury Baptists that the 'hedge or wall' was created to keep the
   state out of the church.  The term when taken in context did NOT mean 
   keeping Christianity/the church out of government.  It was not until the
   Everson v. Board of Education case (this is, of course, the 1947 case which
   linked the fourteenth and first amendments  - even though the authors of
   the fourteenth amendment specifically voted down such a link no less than
   six times as they were drafting it), when the Supreme Court took
   Jefferson's quote out of context, that the phrase took on its current
   meaning  (this is not just my opinion, see Reynolds v. U.S. 164 (1878) to
   see the Jefferson quote discussed in detail in its proper context.)

   A few things Jefferson did:  As President, Jefferson signed the enabling
   act for the states of Ohio, which met the requirements under Section VIII,
   Article III of the Northwest Ordinance (see it quoted in the Washington
   section above); while President of the United States, Jefferson was also
   the first president of the Washington, D.C. public school board, and said
   the following regarding the Bible in public education:"I have always said,
   and always will say, that the studious perusal of the sacred volume will
   make us better citizens." (Herbert Lockyer, "Last Words of Saints and
   Sinners," (Grand Rapids: Kregel, 1969), p. 98); "While serving in the
   Virginia General Assembly he was the one who personally introduced a
   resolution for a Day of Fasting and Prayer in 1774....  When he established
   the University of Virginia, he encouraged the teaching of religion and set
   apart space in the Rotunda for chapel services.  He also praised the use of
   the local courthouse in his hometown for religious services." (Stephen K.
   McDowell and Mark A. Beliles, "America's Providential History"
   (Charlottesville, VA:Providence Press, 1988), p.152);  "In 1803 President
   Jefferson recommended that Congress pass a treaty with the Kaskaskia
   Indians which provided, among other things, a stipend of $100 annually for
   seven years from the Federal treasury for the support of a Catholic priest
   to minister to the Kaskaskia Indians.  This and two similar treaties were
   enacted during Jefferson's administration -- one with the Wyandotte Indians
   and other tribes in 1806, and one with the Cherokees in 1807.  In 1787,
   another act of Congress ordained special lands "for the sole use of
   Christian Indians" and reserved lands for the Moravian Brethren "for
   civilizing the Indians and promoting Christianity"... Congress extended
   this act three times and each time [Jefferson] signed the extension into
   law." (Daniel L. Driesbach, "Real Threat and Mere Shadow: Religious Liberty
   and the First Amendment" (Weschester, Il: Crossway Books, 1987), p.127. 
   See also, Richard Peters, ed., "The Public Statutes at Large of the United
   States," (Boston: Charles C. Little and James Brown, 1846), "A Treaty
   Between the United States and the Kaskaskia Tribe of Indians," 23 December
   1803, Art. III, Vol. VII, p.78-79, "Treaty with the Wyandots, etc.", 1805,
   Vol. VII, Art. IV, p. 88, "Treaty with the Cherokees," 1806, Vol. VII,
   Art. II, p. 102.  See also Robert L. Cord, "Separation of Church and
   State," (NY: Lambeta Press, 1982), p. 39.)

   "I consider the government of the United States as interdicted by the
    Constitution from intemeddling with religious institutions, their
    doctrines, discipline, or excercises.  This results not only from the
    provision that no law shall be made respecting the establishment or free
    excercise of religion, but from that also which reserves to the States the
    powers not delegated to the United States.  Certainly, no power to
    prescribe any religious excercise, or to assume authority in religious
    discipline, has been delegated to the General Government.  It must then
    rest with the States, as far as it can be in any human authority." 
    (Thomas Jefferson, "The Writings of Thomas Jefferson," Albert Bergh, ed.
    (Washington, D.C.: The Thomas Jefferson Memorial Association, 1904),
    Vol. XI, p. 248, letter on January 23, 1808.)


   "The precepts of philosophy, and of the Hebrew code, laid hold of actions
    only.  [Jesus] pushed his scrutinies into the heart of man, erected his
    tribunal in the region of his thoughts, and purified the waters of the
    fountain head."  (William Linn, "The Life of Thomas Jefferson (Ithica, NY:
    Mack and Andrus, 1834), p. 265)

And, finally, Lincoln:

   "The only assurance of our nation's safety is to lay our foundation in
    morality and religion." (Stephen K. McDowell and Mark A. Beliles,
    "America's Providential History," (Charlottesville, VA: Providence Press,
    1988), p.148.

   "It is the duty of nations...to own their dependence upon the overruling
    power of God...and to recognize the sublime truth, announced in the Holy
    Scriptures and proven by all history, that those nations only are blessed
    whose God is the Lord." (James D. Richardson, "A Compilation of the
    Messages and Papers of the Presidents, 1789-1897," (Published by Authority
    of Congress, 1899), Vol. VI, p.164, March 30, 1863.)

   In response to a clergyman question whther God was on the Union's side in
   the Civil War, Lincoln replied: "I am not at all concerned about that, for
   I know that the Lord is always on the side of right.  But it is my constant
   anxiety and prayer that I and this nation should be on the Lord's side."
   ("Abraham Lincoln's Stories and Speeches," J.B. McClure, ed. (Chicago:
   Rhodes & McClure Pub. Co., 1896), pp. 185-186;  John Wesley Hill, "Abraham
   Lincoln -- Man of God," (NY: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1920), p. 330.)

   "But for [the Bible] we could not know right from wrong.  All things most
    desirable for man's welfare ... are to be found portrayed in it." (Abraham
    Lincoln, "The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln," Roy P. Basler, ed. (New
    Brunswick, NJ: Rutgers Union Press, 1853), p. 542, September 7, 1864.  See
    also Clarence E. Macartney, "Lincoln and the Bible," (NY:
    Abington-Cokesbury Press, 1949), p. 35.)


Regards,

Doug Page

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