From: kremer@taveng.enet.dec.com (Itzha Kremer)
Subject: Re: Deportation vs. Murder
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 22:52:29 GMT


Basalat Ali Raja writes...

>I wrote:
># I did not realize that the Bible was intended by its authors as a
># real-estate guide.  It seems to me, however, that the Bible says
># that that land belongs to the children of Abraham.  That includes,
># if you will note, the same Palestinians that are being expelled
># from their homes.
> 
>In article <1993Jan4.093911.15544@rdg.dec.com>
>kremer@taveng.enet.dec.com writes:
> 
>>	I hope you don't consider yourself a Bible scholar. The Bible
>>	explicitly qualifies the "children of Abraham" as those who are
>>	descendant from Isaac and Jacob. I can bring you the sources if
>>	you like but I'm sure that really isn't relevant to you, just as
>>	the claims of the Koran are not relevant to me.
> 
>Then the Bible is explicitly wrong.  Abraham had two sons.  Ishmael
>is the father of the Arabs; you know that as well as I do.  To claim
>that Arabs are not the children of Abraham is idiotic in the extreme.
>Even Makowsky or Alan Stein do not do that.

	Sorry - I can see how you misunderstood what I wrote. Let me
	try to phrase it better...
	
	What I meant was that when G-d promises the Land to the 
	"children of Abraham", He explicitely mentions Isaac and then
	Jacob (Isaac's son). In other words, Ishamael and Esau (Isaac's
	other son) are blessed with all sorts of things, but 'the Land'
	is promised only to the descendants of Jacob.  Of course Ishmael
	is the son of Abraham.  (You and I are cousins :-) )
	
	BTW, I'm happy to hear from an Arab who refers to Ishmael as the
	"father of all Arabs". Some propagandists in this newsgroup
	claimed that Palestinians are the descendants from the pagan
	Caananites and Philistines.  Personally, I thought that was an
	insult to the Arab nation. 

>>	I don't know whether to take this seriously or not. I'll assume
>>	you are serious so let me explain again. The Jewish settlers do
>>	NOT want to live in a country where anyone is given the
>>	freedom to stone and fire-bomb cars at will. That's why they live
>>	in Israel where the police and army do all they can to stop these 
>>	culprits. If your head got smashed with a rock, would you feel
>>        better if you knew that a 10-year old threw it?
> 
>Then the Jewish settlers should not live in the occupied territories.
	
	The Jewish settlers are willing to suffer the daily acts of
	terror and violence from the Palestinians in order to live in
	the Land of Israel. However, they expect the police and army to
	protect them. In the diaspora, the Jews had to flee from places
	where they were not wanted. In Israel, we stopped running away.

>I find it interesting that you call the occupied territories Israel.
>Even the Israeli government does not do that.
> 
	That's right. For me Israel includes Judea, Samaria, Gaza and the
	Golan despite what my government might say. I'm not a politician
	so I don't have to be careful of my wording.  By the way, the
	previous government refered to these lands as part of "Greater
	Israel" and most members of the present government consider the
	Golan as an integral part of Israel. Also some members of the
	present government will call these lands "the Territories" and
	will refer to pre-1967 borders as "the green line" without making
	a clear distinction of what the term "Israel" includes.
	
	All this is really not so relevent because if Arafat can refer to
	Judea and Samaria as part of the "Arab State of Palestine" then
	certainly I can refer to them as part of Israel. What we call the
	Land is not the problem. The problem is that 2 nations firmly
	believe that the same Land belongs to them and only to them.

-Itzhak