From: alexpace@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Alex L. Pace)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals,alt.activism,rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: Terrorism and Imagery
Date: 28 Jan 1993 06:02:00 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin
NNTP-Posting-Host: sylvester.cc.utexas.edu

In article <1993Jan28.030855.4018@sol.cs.wmich.edu> thmiley@sol.cs.wmich.edu (Tim Miley) writes:
>alexpace@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Alex L. Pace) writes:

[my feelings as to the definition of terrorism deleted]
>>....  You may think that animal research is cruel but it is far from
>>terroristic.  
>
>Good point, Alex.
>
>However, the animals that are IN the labs are possibly a terrified populace
>living in perpetual fear of the men in white coats.

Perhaps, however most of the lab animals were raised in this environment
and may be quite adjusted.  Almost any animal in the wild would be
horrified if approached by a person, most would run and hide.  I still do
not agree that "terrorist" is the correct term for the dynamic occuring in
a lab.  Moreover I believe that the word "terrorist" has a particular
negative meaning to the people of this country, because as citizens of the
US, we face an increased risk of being kidnapped or killed by
orgainizations that our government refers to as terrorist.  Military
involvement against Lybia and Iran have been justified as "anti-terrorist"
actions.  I also believe that some AR groups take advantage of this imagery
to advance their cause.  I believe this is wrong.

>Alex, I would like to know what your stand is on useless and painful animal
>research, [Examples of research Tim consideres useless]

Tim, if a painful procedure is useless, I'd call it torture.  Unfortunately
people have different interpretations of useless.  To the church, the
research Galileo did was useless.

>I would like to get a better glimpse of what goes on in the animal labs.

Last year I decided I wanted a job on campus, the animal research facility
on campus was hiring so I went for an interview.  Before I was even offered
the job I was given an hour-long tour of the facility.  This is what I
remember:
	It smelled real bad even though it appeared very clean.
	Really fat rabbits with clear plastic tubes sticking out of them.
	Dogs that really barked loud.
	Lots and Lots of rodents, all kinds.
	Monkeys, they smelled worst of all.  There was Hay in their cages.
	Lots of people walking around in white robes.
	A room full of test tubes and glassware.
       	Cats with wounds that were patched.
	A large room that was airtight, it was explained that this was the
	  room that animals were euthanized in.  It was explained that for 
	  single animals were given injections but if a lot were to be 
	  euthanized the room would be sealed and CO2 would be pumped in.
	  The man said this caused the animals to go to sleep and die.
	Then he told me I would be responsible for doing some of the
	  euthanizing if I took the job.

The main reason I didnt take the job is because the place smelled really
bad and I had to change clothes when I got home (smell got in my clothes
sorta like cigarette smoke.)  The other reason is that while I could
probably off the rodents and cats, I have serious doubts about my ability
to kill dogs and monkeys, even if it was for their own good.  Hey, I always
throw back the fish I catch.

>Do this one time.  Make contact with an animal researcher and see if you can
>get a guided tour of the lab.  See if you can get in.

Uh, I just explained this.

>My point being: if the researchers are so confident that their research is
>helpful to mankind, why are they not proud of showing it off?

Even though I know that the man that gave me the tour of the facility was
very proud of their work, he kept noting advances and explaining all of the
particularly nasty looking experiments, it is fair to say that the
usefullness of such experiments is not initially obvious.  The researcher
had the opoportunity to explain things in detail to me, he was hoping to
hire me on.  I doubt that the researcher has the time or energy to give
everyone the tour, especially if he precieves that the person taking the
tour is not interested in the value of the research but has conversly
already made up his/her mind and is merely seeking "evidence" that could
lead to the loss of funding for usefull research.


>Tim

alex the omnivore
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals