HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jeff@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Jeff Freymueller)
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
Subject: Re: Bringing an aspect of Face-To-Face to the judge
Date: 11 Jan 1993 16:50:16 GMT
Organization: Stanford Univ. Earth Sciences
NNTP-Posting-Host: pangea.stanford.edu

In article <1is236INNdvc@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> fau@po.CWRU.Edu (Francis A. Uy) writes:
>
>jeff@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Jeff Freymueller) says:
>
>>kovar@world.std.com (David C Kovar) writes:
>
>>>It was suggested that the judge be modified to report on who is sending
>>>messages to whom.
>
>>The only problem I can see is that in a non-gunboat game, the players could
>>just exchenge email privately (rather than through the judge) - thus bypassing
>>this useful bit of information. But this option would be great on a gunboat,
>>partial white press game - nad would be more like FTF.
>
>Problem being that Gunboat is designed to have that kind
> of secrecy.  How could you play gunboat face to face?
>
>You'd have to modify the Gunboat system, so that all mail
> is routed through the Judge, but the sender's nationality
> is displayed.  Alternately, play a regular game and ask
> the players to refrain from sending outside mail.  
>
>Ack!  I'm asking Diplomats to follow an honor code!  What
> was I thinking?  (-;

That's what a gunboat game with PARTIAL white press does. You can send press
to any power or set of powers. So that makes it just like a regular game
except that identities are secret. So, yes, it that makes it not really a
"gunboat" game in a way, in the sense that gunboat would be normally no-partial
press (where all diplomacy is public).

I'd like to think that Diplomacy players could follow an honor code. After
all, in the ftf games I've played, we would write our moves and put them into
a box. It was against the code to take someone's orders out of the box and
read them until after all moves were in. Still, that was with a group of
friends, not an anonymous collection of e-mail addresses. So I'd say you
are probably right!

Jeff

Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
From: kovar@world.std.com (David C Kovar)
Subject: Anyone interested in Face-To-Face diplomacy in/around Boston?
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Distribution: ne
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 17:46:43 GMT

  I've played a lot of email (judge) diplomacy but I've never played
it face to face. I was wondering if anyone else would be interested
in getting together once in awhile on a weekend to play a game through
to completion. I'd imagine a Sunday afternoon with relatively tight
time limits so we could get a game done in a predictable amount of
time. We could use my house in Belmont, MA, since it has a lot of space.

  If anyone is interested, drop me a note and I'll put your name on
the list for doing this.

-David
From: wjames@cse.ucsc.edu (John Amenta)
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
Subject: NMR (my two cents)
Date: 9 Jan 93 18:51:00 GMT
Organization: University of California, Santa Cruz (CE/CIS Boards)
NNTP-Posting-Host: pal.ucsc.edu

I have no problem with the NMR rules, it is more like playing another
variant of Diplomacy, and can be used as a diplomatic tool to
some degree. The original rules include CIVIL DISORDER which is NMR.
The main reason for NMR is to cut down on the length of a game, since
longer games do take away the enjoyment of it.

It is true that a power going NMR can tip the balance of a game
dramatically.  But we all know what can occur if an alliance of powers
takes place with a certain intent in mind.  Good diplomacy can avert
the negative effects of NMR, and at the same time, make the game
even more suspenseful. The big advantage ofcourse, is you don't have
to wait for weeks on end for the game to continue.

I would like to see NMR games also become an official standard and
be rated.  They also take skill to play, and can be just as challenging
as a noNMR game.

-wj
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy,bit.listserv.dipl-l
From: jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Joel Furr)
Subject: Re: Game aargh! not eligble for EP (was 24-Hour Warp With NMR)
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 93 17:05:23 GMT

In article <1993Jan4.235220.2010@muddcs.claremont.edu> irilyth@fenris.claremont.edu (Josh Smith) writes:
>Joel Furr (jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu) writes:
>
>> As moderator, I will be keeping a detailed log of all press and actions by
>> the players in order to create an article about the game for posting here
>> on rec.games.diplomacy.  If EP doesn't want it, that's fine; perhaps it
>> will still be of use to people who want to know more about how NMR
>> actually works in the course of a game.
>
>Actually, EPC2-the-magazine would be quite interested in publishing such an
>article. Or at least, speaking as editor of same, I'd be interested in
>publishing an article commenting on the effects of NMR on an actual game; I
>can't promise anything for future editors, of course. Still, I think it's an
>interesting subject, and would be happy to hear comments from both
>proponents and opponents of the "EP should include NMR games" issue.

I had a thought earlier this morning regarding the use of NMR in games. 
The reason NOT to use NMR is because it may significantly alter the
outcome of games and damage the integrity of what Diplomacy is all about. 
Then it occurred to me that at least one of the games I'm a replacement in
has NO original players still in it and some of the games are on their
second iteration of replacing all the players.  This is the flip side of
NMR: is a game that winds up including twenty or thirty players during its
course still a worthy lesson for the readers of EP?  Probably, but not in
the same way that a game that went from start to finish with the same
players.  I think NMR has minuses, true, but I think that under some
circumstances, the pluses outweigh these.  I'll be interested to write up
'aargh!' when it's all over and see how it worked.
From: loeb@greco-prog.fr (Daniel LOEB)
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
Subject: Re: NMR: truth or heresy?
Date: 11 Jan 93 09:47:23 GMT
Reply-To: loeb@geocub.UUCP (Daniel LOEB)
Organization: Greco Programmation du CNRS

In article <1993Jan8.063150.13305@sol.UVic.CA> jroberts@sanjuan (John Roberts) writes:
>I believe that either of the following two events should invalidate a
>game for scoring purposes:
> - in a NoNMR game, where an excessive number of replacements are made
>   (after all, in a face-to-face game replacements are rare), because
>   diplomacy degenerates
> - in an NMR game, where an excessive advantage is gained by some power(s)
>   as a result of a CD situation
>Of course, the question is: what is *excessive*?
>How about:
>  NoNMR - if any power is replaced more than twice, or the total number of
>  replacements during the game is greater than 10.
>  NMR - if any power gains more than 2 supply centres during the course of
>  the game as a result of CD.
>Okay, flame away, but notice that these guidelines at least do not require
>some subjective evaluation by a GM or editor, and could theoretically be
>programmed into the Judge.

I have a problem with these two hard-and-fast criteria.

NoNMR - Suppose that I am a replacement player, and I am about to
lose. I could threaten to quit. If I did so, then the game would lose
its official standing, and my attackers would not get credit for their
win. Thus, I could force my way into a draw which I wouldn't otherwise
deserve. 

NMR - How to you program JUDGE to recognize which SC were "the result
of a CD" ?



-- 

Yours, Daniel Loeb				loeb@geocub.greco-prog.fr
HOME 	150, cours Victor-Hugo; Appt D45; 33000 Bordeaux France
WORK	LABRI; Universite de Bordeaux I; 33405 Talence Cedex France
Xref: sparky rec.games.diplomacy:886 bit.listserv.dipl-l:531
From: ktomlin@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Keith P. Tomlin)
Newsgroups: vt.bitsbytes,rec.games.diplomacy,bit.listserv.dipl-l
Subject: Re: Immediate Openings on the Washington Judge -- Help These Games Out
Date: 12 Jan 93 23:31:55 GMT
Organization: Virginia Tech Computer Science Dept, Blacksburg, VA

In article <C0qGM3.Hs0@polaris.async.vt.edu> jfurr@polaris.async.vt.edu (J. Furr) writes:
>The following powers on the following games are ALL CD and you may take
>any or all of them over as soon as you can get a signon command to the
>Washington judge.  Note that some of them are variants.
>
>bass, F1902Build: Italy 3/4
>beetle, F1907Build: England 6/7
>pompey, gunboat, S1906Move: Turkey 7/7
>zoom, gunboat, S1908Move: Austria 3/3
>boyne, 1898, F1900Build: Italy 2/3
>guns, gunboat, 1898, F1908Move: Germany 8/8
>
>Help the players of these games out by taking over a power or two.  Do a
>list ____ before trying to sign on to see if someone beat you to them.

Sorry to quote the entire post, but what does this mean and why is it here?
 
Thanks,
Keith

-- 
Keith P. Tomlin                                    |  ktomlin@csugrad.cs.vt.edu
Virginia Tech Computer Science                     |  ktomlin@turing.org
CS Bits & Bytes Editor                             |
Vice President Organization for Student Computing  |  
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
From: irilyth@fenris.claremont.edu (Josh Smith)
Subject: Re: Retreats
Originator: irilyth@fenris
Organization: Evil Geniuses For A Better Tomorrow
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 04:25:09 GMT

Mark Wilson (mark.wilson@launchpad.unc.edu) writes:

> I have noticed that the Judge will initiate a retreat phase even if there
> is only one legal retreat!

This is a feature, not a bug: even if you only have one legal retreat, you
do always have the option to disband instead of retreating. Note that the
Judge doesn't require you to send in a retreat in the only case where you
really have _no_ choice: when you're dislodged with no legal retreats.
-- 
Josh Smith, User Support Coordinator  ::  irilyth@fenris.claremont.edu
Harvey Mudd College, Claremont CA USA ::  consult(std-disclaimer.pl).
"I guess we were all guilty, in a way. We all shot him, we all skinned him,
and we all got a complimentary bumper sticker that said 'I helped skin Bob.'"
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
From: rho@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Richard Ho)
Subject: Re: Retreats
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 03:42:44 GMT

In article <1993Jan9.022029.29142@samba.oit.unc.edu> Mark.Wilson@launchpad.unc.edu (Mark Wilson) writes:
>I have noticed that the Judge will initiate a
>retreat phase even if there is only one legal retreat!
>
>	Mark  --  a very very busy medical student :(    


Is it not true that a player may opt to disband the unit instead of
retreating if the unit is dislodged? Don't have my rules with me so
I can't quote the relevent section.

The judge already does the automatic disband if there are no valid
retreats. Wonderful program that judge!



=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
	    |	email: rho@cs.stanford.edu	  P.O. Box 6391
Richard Ho  |	Tel:   415-497 7198 (h)		  Stanford University
	    |          415-723 1809 (o)		  CA 94309, U.S.A.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
From: mbrgw@s-crim1.dl.ac.uk (R.G. Walters)
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
Subject: Re: Response time from the Washington Judge.
Date: 7 Jan 1993 11:56:17 -0000
Organization: Daresbury Lab., Warrington, U.K.
NNTP-Posting-Host: seqnet.dl.ac.uk

In article <C0G50u.MF6@cs.dal.ca> maillet@ug.cs.dal.ca (Andre' Maillet) writes:
>
>I've wanted to take up a country gone CD on the Washington Judge. (The game
>is tapir, it was advertised recently on RGD.) Anyway, I had not yet registered
>on the Washington judge because it was closing down. (I have registered on EFF,
>though). 
>
   [stuff deleted]
>
>     Anyhow, I sent the signon command (correctly, I think) and waited until 
>the next day (today). I have gotten no response yet. I think I queried another
>list tapir to confirm when the message should have come back. Neither did yet.
>
>     Well, my questions are these:
>
>1)   What kind of message delay should I be expecting?

Anything from half a minute to half a day (in my experience) :-)
>
>3)   Have I signed up to tapir (anyone who is playing tapir know if I've signed
>on to england? address maillet@ug.cs.dal.ca) Is their a confirmation to this,
>also? 

Not unless it tells you.  I tried to sign onto locust (the instant I
saw the opening posted), but too late - OK, so maybe I should have listed
the game first...
>
>4)   How can I find out fast if a position is unoccupied?
>
>Andre'

In fact, I was going to fill _any_ of the abandoned powers in standard games,
but after my failure with "locust", I listed them all first - and every
opening had _already_ been filled. It seems to me that if openings are known
about, then they quickly get filled, so...

Why not get the Judges to post directly to DIPL-L or rec.games.diplomacy
whenever a power goes CD?  Rather than wait until someone browses through
the lists, or put more burdens on the shoulders of GMs, this would alert
anyone interested and (if my experience is anything to go by) get those
positions filled like lightning.

Would this be hard to do?

Robin Walters.
"This is not a .sig"
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
From: abick@sebastian.carleton.ca (Alan Bick)
Subject: Re: EFF Judge
Keywords: Down?
Organization: Carleton University
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 18:08:42 GMT

In <Jan.6.11.50.14.1993.12234@math.rutgers.edu> desper@math.rutgers.edu (Rick Desper) writes:

>The EFF Judge is not bouncing my messages.  Has anybody received mail
>from it today?  
>					Rick

I sent mail today at about 11:30 EST and got a reply two hours later. (By
the wording, it is possible that the person didn't get my message and just
happened to include what I wanted to know... but I doubt it.) I believe it
is working fine.

Alan Bick
From: PL436000@brownvm.brown.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
Subject: Re: Question on "gunboat" (specifically light)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 18:32:44 EST
Organization: Brown University - Providence, Rhode Island  USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: brownvm.brown.edu
News-Software: BNN via BNN_POST v1.0 beta

>From: abick@sebastian.carleton.ca (Alan Bick)

>        I've been observing light for sometime and noticed that it has
>been having problems. I'd sign in on the game myself but I know one of the
>players rather well. My question is this: How does one know which power is
>abandoned so they can sign into it?

>        When I do a list on the game it tells me only that "<so many powers>
>are abandoned". Is the only way to find out, by signing into every power
>before you get lucky. Someone posted that Russia happened to be open? How
>did they know?

Hmm.

Well, first of all, in general a gunboat game certainly OUGHT to
tell in a listing which powers are ABANDONED.
I thought, maybe I was wrong, that a judge would do that
unless the QUIET flag was set. The QUIET flag should be reserved
for special situations, for example, in a gunboat TOURNAMENT.

Unless QUIET is set, JUDGE will tell you which power is abandoned
when it goes CD. So one of the players would know who it was.

Or, it could be the gm. The GM would obviously know.

>        I can understand how it might hurt the game if players knew which
>powers had been abandoned but how does an observer/non-player find out?

Well, it is awfully hard to keep players from discovering info
that is available to observers.

Jamie
From: loeb@greco-prog.fr (Daniel LOEB)
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
Subject: Re: Retreats
Date: 12 Jan 93 09:36:23 GMT
Reply-To: loeb@geocub.UUCP (Daniel LOEB)
Organization: Greco Programmation du CNRS

In article <4343@wzv.win.tue.nl> rob@wzv.win.tue.nl (Rob J. Nauta) writes:
>Mark.Wilson@launchpad.unc.edu (Mark Wilson) writes:
>I have some other questions about the scoring. If you lose all your
>armies, do you have to submit moves, and what happens to your score ?
>And if you received a -50 for being too late, and your current score
>therefore is -47, how do you get it back up ? With -47 on the
>washington judge and all the games with a -10 or higher limit, and
>my game finished, there seems no hope.

Rob is asking about the "dedication" points.
Games with a dedication of "0" are open to EVERYONE regardless of
their dedication.  That's how you can bring your dedication back up.


-- 

Yours, Daniel Loeb				loeb@geocub.greco-prog.fr
HOME 	150, cours Victor-Hugo; Appt D45; 33000 Bordeaux France
WORK	LABRI; Universite de Bordeaux I; 33405 Talence Cedex France
From: loeb@greco-prog.fr (Daniel LOEB)
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
Subject: Re: Great comebacks
Date: 12 Jan 93 09:43:34 GMT
Reply-To: loeb@geocub.UUCP (Daniel LOEB)
Organization: Greco Programmation du CNRS

In article <1993Jan9.213558.27694@ultb.isc.rit.edu> swd0170@ritvax.isc.rit.edu writes:
>Have other people had similar experiences of being faced with certain defeat
>but somehow staged a daring comeback? 

In the game TOGUGAWA, I took over a "hopeless" Austrian position. I
was being attacked by all of my neighbors, and only had 2 supply
centers. Nevertheless, stiff negotiation turned everything around.
I ended up with a good position, and tried to stab my ally Turkey for
a good shot at a win. Unfortunately, he stabbed me even better the
next turn, and all I was able to salvage from the situation was a
5-way draw.

-- 

Yours, Daniel Loeb				loeb@geocub.greco-prog.fr
HOME 	150, cours Victor-Hugo; Appt D45; 33000 Bordeaux France
WORK	LABRI; Universite de Bordeaux I; 33405 Talence Cedex France
From: rob@wzv.win.tue.nl (Rob J. Nauta)
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
Subject: Re: Retreats
Date: 10 Jan 93 12:01:58 GMT
Organization: None

Mark.Wilson@launchpad.unc.edu (Mark Wilson) writes:

>I have noticed that the Judge will initiate a
>retreat phase even if there is only one legal retreat!  Since the
>judge handles everything else so well I was surprised to see this.

Indeed, I've fallen for this one as well and got some negative
points for being too late with moves.

>	Can someone implement this simple 'upgrade'?  I would do it
>myself if I could ftp files off the net.

The FAQ for this group mentions the file name for the judge source:
-rw-r--r--       260039 Nov 18 12:43 dip.tar.Z       Source code for judge
I think you can get it with 'get file' from judge@eff.org..

>	If you belong to the don't fix it unless its broken club, then
>this upgrade would seem rather trivial.  I just thought it would be nice
>to shave a day or two off the game when this occured.

I have some other questions about the scoring. If you lose all your
armies, do you have to submit moves, and what happens to your score ?
And if you received a -50 for being too late, and your current score
therefore is -47, how do you get it back up ? With -47 on the
washington judge and all the games with a -10 or higher limit, and
my game finished, there seems no hope.

Rob
-- 
/-----------------------------------------------\       Never              ,==.
| Rob J. Nauta, UNIX computer security expert.  |        Apologize,       /@  |
| rob@wzv.win.tue.nl, Phone: +31-40-837549      |         Never          /_  <
| Feel free to email me for free advice         |          Explain.     =" `g'
From: agoper@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Arne Grimstrup)
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
Subject: New Judge at UofManitoba
Summary: Welcome to a New Judge!
Keywords: Judge Operational
Date: 6 Jan 93 22:41:51 GMT
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada

It's my pleasure to publicly announce a new judge located at
the University of Manitoba.  It can be reached at:

     umgrimst@ccu.umanitoba.ca

If you need to contact the administrator, send mail to:

     agoper@ccu.umanitoba.ca

Due to disk space restrictions, I cannot support more than 10 games
at this site so I have restricted the create game command to admin
only.  If you want to have a new game created, please contact me at
the above listed address.

More information can be obtained by sending: 'get info' in the body
of a message to the judge's address given above.

Enjoy!

-- 
Arne Grimstrup                            agoper@ccu.umanitoba.ca

"Wait!  Open it up!  There might be clothes in it!"
      -- My niece after tearing off the wrapping paper from her present
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
From: jjfink@skcla.monsanto.com
Subject: Amnesia Forgotten (see prev post)
Organization: Searle, Skokie, IL
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 15:57:22 GMT

Sorry, my last post I forgot to use a heading!
That's what I get for a post about the game "amnesia".

Joel
-- 
jjfink@skcla.monsanto.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I want peace on earth, and goodwill towards man."
"We don't do that kind of thing, we're the United States Government!"
  -- from _Sneakers_
From: nad@cl.cam.ac.uk (Neil Dodgson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.diplomacy
Subject: Re: NMR: truth or heresy?
Date: 8 Jan 93 10:44:29 GMT
Reply-To: Neil.Dodgson@cl.cam.ac.uk
Organization: U of Cambridge Comp Lab, UK

Joel Furr writes:
>John Roberts writes:
>>I've been watching the discussion regarding NMR, and have to admit that
>>recent experience pushes me to say that I consider NMR as valid as NoNMR
>>In three separate current games, I have:
>> - watched a carefully prepared plan go completely wrong, because the power
>>   with which I had a treaty went CD and was taken over by someone who
>>   submitted contradictory orders almost immediately, without engaging
>>   in diplomacy
>I've seen this happen quite often.  People come in and want to save the
>day for the other players by submitting orders IMMEDIATELY, get the game
>going again and all that, and never mind that these orders may make no
>sense in the context of what has gone before.

I took over my first power earlier this week, and was prepared to talk
to all the other players.  However, the judge set the deadline for
orders to only 24 hours after I had taken over, which panicked me.
Could this explain the problem?  I did not want to be penalised for
not getting orders in on time (though I did set wait).

Is 24 hours long enough?  What if the other players are away from work
that particular day, or are otherwise unable to talk within the 24
hour limit?  This gives great advantage to those who happen to be in
town on the day the CD power is taken over.

Neil
====
--
Neil Dodgson,           | E-mail: nad@cl.cam.ac.uk       |    |
Computer Laboratory,    |                                |   -+-
Pembroke Street,        | 'phone: Cambridge (0223)334407 |    |
Cambridge, U.K. CB2 3QG |   International +44-223-334407 |    |
From: jdw@sniff.wfo.dec.com (Joe Whittemore)
Newsgroups: rec.outdoors.fishing
Subject: Re: Atlantic salmon die at Sunderland MA. (USA)
Keywords: salmon
Date: 4 Jan 93 19:27:21 GMT
Reply-To: jdw@sniff.wfo.dec.com.UUCP (Joe Whittemore)
Organization: LES Engineering in Westfield, Ma.

In article <6933@sniff.wfo.dec.com> whittemore@wfodev.enet.dec.com (Joe Whittemore) writes:
>
>Daily Hampshire Gazette  date unknown (approx. 24-Dec-1992)
>
>"Digest of the region's news"
>
>"Hundreds of salmon killed
>    "Sunderland - A cleaning agent is believed to be the cause for the deaths
>of more than 200 Atlantic salmon at the Richard E. Cronin National Salmon
>Station, officials say.
                                [ rest-o-stuff deleted ]

Someone droped me an e-mail asking if these were brood stock (as opposed to
"pets") but I blew their address so ..............

Yes - I belive these were brood stock taken from the Conneticut river over
the past couple o' years. That's just my suspision; they could have been
grilis but that's inconsistant with the referance to "domestic" salmon.

--
Joe Whittemore - From where the Westfield
                      Meets the Westfield
                         By the Westfield
                            In Huntington (MA)
  +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
  |     -> the opinions expressed herein are not nor do they reflect <-     |
  +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
   jdw@sniff.enet.dec.com                     whittemore@wfodev.enet.dec.com