HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: stcroix@Cadence.COM (Bill St.Croix)
Subject: Re: Jumping the Good Ship California
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Distribution: ca
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 19:00:19 GMT

In article <1992Aug24.180150.8004@leland.Stanford.EDU> eec@leland.Stanford.EDU (Edie Cheng) writes:
>>
>>  If you don't like the state, then leave -- it's a simple as that.
>
>Excuse me, but I find this particular sentiment really offensive.  It
>reminds me of the way some conservative politicians have chosen to
>divide people into those who are 'for' us and those who are not.  (A
>quote in a recent Time article, "I love America and those who don't can
>get out.")  If I think the system (or the country or state or city...) 
>doesn't work, it doesn't mean I don't have a right to a) voice my 
>complaints, b) suggest changes or c) live with it.
                               ^^^
Excellent use of the word or!  That's right, you can complain OR live
with it.  Face it, everyone complains about something wherever they live.  It's
too hot/cold, too humid/dry, too populated/rural....etc....

Sure, I complain about traffic, but I live with it, because there is SO
much more about California (the Bay Area, in particular) that I really
like.  For those people who hate everything about California, except of
course, their paycheck, they have the right to leave and we are just letting
them know that if they are soooooo dissatisfied with life here, they can
leave and we'll help them pack!

>It's too bad not everyone loves to live in California, and I hope those
>that don't can find someplace they're happier living.  But not everyone 
>*can* leave the state, for economic or other reasons.

Instead, they "Bite the hand that feeds them", so to speak...

>Btw, I am a longtime resident and fan of the Bay Area.

I've been here for 9 months and have loved EVERY minute of it!!

	Bill

Newsgroups: ca.general
From: henry@ADS.COM (Henry Mensch)
Subject: Re: Leaving California
Keywords: quiting,california
Organization: Advanced Decision Systems; a div of Booz, Allen & Hamilton
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 17:44:31 GMT

steiny@steiny.com (Don Steiny) wrote: 
->	For one thing, what is the big poot about owning a home?   

i don't know.  why don't you tell us why you (not specifically don
steiny) own a home.

->	California is and will continue to be an amazing and marvelous place.

agreed.  

--
# henry mensch / booz, allen & hamilton, inc.  / <henry@ads.com>
Newsgroups: ca.general
From: kberry@sactoh0.sac.ca.us (Kim A. Berry)
Subject: Re: Jumping the Good Ship California
Organization: Sacramento Public Access Unix, Sacramento, Ca.
Distribution: ca
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 92 12:37:53 GMT

In article <65122@cup.portal.com> ts@cup.portal.com (Tim W Smith) writes:
>Kim> 6.  Compel California businesses to hire locally before
>Kim> recruiting out-of-state.
>
>Did you really mean out-of-country rather than just out-of-state?
>Out-of-state has Constitutional problems, doesn't it?
>
>--Tim Smith

I don't think there are any Constitutional problems. For one
thing I think Hawaii is already doing something like that --
discouraging employers from hiring mainlanders who want to
move there. I don't know if that policy comes from the 
government or is just the policy of a few companies.

Here in Sacramento the county intends to fine companies that do
not have a sufficient percentage of employees using mass transit
or carpools. They also give companies tax breaks for hiring
people from certain areas of town (e.g., low-income, minority
neighborhoods). Then there are the state colleges that charge
different rates to U.S. Citizens depending on which state 
they happened to reside in for the past year (leave your home
state for a year, and you loose your resident tuition rights).

Since I am not aware of any Constitutional challenges to any
of the above, I don't think it would be unconstitutional to
provide state tax incentives for each California resident 
a company employed...but who knows. It was just a thought on
how to reduce our unemployment rate and discourage unemployed
people from other areas from migrating here.

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------
        Kim Berry              kberry@sactoh0.SAC.CA.US

Newsgroups: ca.general
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: Jumping the Good Ship California
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Distribution: ca
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 22:37:20 GMT

jlodman@cs.ucsd.edu (Michael Lodman) writes:
>>Why not call that the "Southland Metropolitan Area"? 
>Why not "Hell on Earth"? (Most especially Pasadena :-) )

Let not that which your alma mater was cloud your perception of
the current thing that Pasadena is. 
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

       "When you are in it up to your ears, keep your mouth shut."
From: ts@cup.portal.com (Tim W Smith)
Newsgroups: ca.general
Subject: Re: Leaving California
Date: Wed,  2 Sep 92 03:25:43 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: usa
  <1992Aug31.174943.25579@ads.com><1992Sep1.005935.6297@nas.nasa.gov>
  <JET.92Sep1101300@win30.nas.nasa.gov>

If I were starting a high-tech company in California, I think I'd put it
somewhere away from the high housing costs, yet close.  For example, in
Modesto or Merced or Los Banos.  For $100K there, you can get a good
house.  For $150K, you can get something real nice, with land and maybe
a pool and other luxuries.

But what about the culture, or lack thereof?  Well, its only a couple of
hours by car to the Bay area.  With the amount saved on housing, the
employees could afford to take a couple weekends a month and go to
the Bay area for culture.  And at a high-tech company, whose got time for
culture on weekdays, anyway? :-)

--Tim Smith
Newsgroups: ca.general
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: Jumping the Good Ship California
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Distribution: ca
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 20:11:13 GMT

price@nosc.mil (James N. Price) writes:
>HOGWASH! "LA" starts in San Clemente and ends west of Thousand
>Oaks in one dimension, and it goes from Santa Monica to east of
>San Bernardino the other way.  And the tentacles are spreading
>ever further.

Obviously a clueless child of the OC area. That's ok...it's not
his fault. 

>By "LA," I, as a non-resident of same, refer to the solid mass of
>houses, industrial parks, Burger Kings, and linear shopping malls
>that clog the above mentioned boundaries.  

Why not call that the "Southland Metropolitan Area"? 

-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

   People who think they know all are often insufferable.
            Rather like those who imagine that they know nothing.
Newsgroups: ca.general
From: rcarter@gaudi.nas.nasa.gov (Russell L. Carter)
Subject: Re: Leaving California
Keywords: quiting,california
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 92 00:59:35 GMT
Distribution: usa

In article <1992Aug31.174943.25579@ads.com> henry@ADS.COM (Henry Mensch) writes:
>kilroy@netcom.com (Jeffrey S. Shulman) wrote: 
>->Aside from the tax deduction and whatever equity you are getting yourself the
>->big deal of home ownership is CONTROL over your life.
>
>this is highly exaggerated.


Well good for you!  My experience is otherwise.


>
>->I have rented before and found the lack of control of where you live, HOW you
>->live, and worry about year-to-year lease renewal the biggest detriments to
>->renting over ownership.
>
>???  lack of control over where i live?  i control that thoroughly: i
>live where i can afford to rent.  this isn't any different than owning
>a home.  how i live has never been an issue:  i find suitable quarters
>to meet my needs ... i live in what would (probably improperly) be
>called a flat in san francisco's pacific heights neighborhood.  i have
>neighbors downstairs who mostly don't exist (they're a business ...
>very M-F 0900-1700) and to the rear (two guys who work for oracle)
>whom i see maybe three times a year ... i never hear them, and they
>don't hear me.  the worry about year-to-year renewal isn't an issue,
>either, unless you're being unreasonable or the landlord has different
>plans for the property over time (most renters don't have this
>problem).
>

Again, isn't that just swell.  I've lived in three BA places now,
two in Mountain View, one in The City.  Never, ever did I have
such sorry neighbors when I lived in Florida, Georgia, North
Carolina, or Arizona.  Sounds like you've hooked into
an enviable situation where you got commutaworkaholics
for wallmates.  'Tis not always so.  The stories I could tell...
like the pinhead that started screaming at me
for "pouring rocks every morning".  How was I to know that's
what dry catfood sounds like in a plastic dish when heard
through the wall?  Or the other neighbor that complained
to the landlord that we took too many showers and went
in and out of the front door too often when we did the
laundrey, and on and on and on.  Or the other neighbor
that kept a cur chained two foot short, even when it
barked incessantly next to our bedroom window in the
middle of the night.  I might add that other than stiffing
me abit on my deposits, the landlords (and come to think of it, the 
police, too) have been quite nice and sympathetic.

I never seriously considered owning until I moved to the
Bay Area, (after meeting the Waltons next door at my first two
places) but after alot of computer analysis to try and
prove to myself otherwise, I still don't consider owning. :-(

Essentially what we got here is alot of shoddy, rootless people
paying too high prices for shoddy housing mated to crummy
mind boggling commutes.  But the weather sure is nice.

Russell
Newsgroups: ca.general
From: w2dz@watson.ibm.com (Daniel Zalik)
Subject: English as a foreign language
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 05:50:33 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

I have some friends living in LA that have recently immigrated from Russia.
Their english is not bad and they find that the english classes, be they in
Jewish Community Centers or others that they have learned about, offer
only very basic remidiation in english. They desperately desire to improve
thier accents and grammar, but can not find an environment suitable to those
ends. I have suggested that they try to make as many english speaking
acquaintances as possible. However since their exposure is limited I
wonder if anyone knows other courses of action.

Daniel


The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of IBM.
From: ts@cup.portal.com (Tim W Smith)
Newsgroups: ca.general
Subject: Re: Jumping the Good Ship California
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 92 18:15:50 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: ca
  <17m18aINN5sp@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>

> >My paychecks are bigger, though.  Washington does not have a state income
> >tax.  Nyeh nyeh nyeh! :-)
> >
> I wonder if that is a gain or a loss, since state income tax is deductible
> on the federal income tax, and sales tax no longer is.

Gain.  Spending X dollars on state income tax saves you rX on your federal
taxes, where r is your marginal rate.  Since r is around 0.3, it's a gain.

--Tim Smith
Newsgroups: ca.general
From: marv@netcom.com (Marvin Raab)
Subject: Jumping from CA
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 92 19:15:37 GMT
Organization: user of Netcom Public Access Unix, SF Bay Area
Distribution: ca

Having been here three years (after 21 in NYC and 4 in Wash DC), I still
smile every morning when I wake up. I absolutely love it here. The people,
the restaurants, the climate, the activities, everything is perfectly
suited to my tastes in the Bay Area. 

And, that's just it: Taste. I hate, rather loathe, New York City. Whenever
I fly back for business or visiting friends/parents, I get a sick feeling
in my stomach as soon as they say "In preparation for landing, the Captain
has requested..." but I have friends who would never consider leaving. And,
LA is just a west coast NY to my tastebuds.

Same thing with other parts of the country. Live where you want. There 
are so many different choices. The choice of climate, traffic, people,
job markets, salaries, and activities weigh differently with everyone.


                -marvin


-- 
Marvin Raab                                  
marv@netcom.com                              Mountain View, CA 94040
apple.com!netcom.com!marv                    415-961-6501 (h)
Newsgroups: ca.general
From: stcroix@Cadence.COM (Bill St.Croix)
Subject: Re: Jumping the Good Ship California
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Distribution: ca
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 15:17:49 GMT

In article <BtCuvC.1ss@well.sf.ca.us> casey@well.sf.ca.us (Kathleen Creighton) writes:
>
>Ellon, I started this thread because I wanted to hear what people had to
>say about it.

Geez, it seems like you only want to hear from people who have *your* same
*valued* opinion.  Sorry, but USENET doesn't quite work that way.

>It isn't about you, it wasn't started for you, and no one
>forced you to participate.

Sure it is about her....it is about ALL OF US who LIVE here...and why we
choose to live here....or not to live here.

>If it offends you, you're welcome to put the
>subject header in your kill file.

And if she feels that she had something to add, she can (and did) and if
you are offended by her views (or mine, or anyone else) feel free to add
us all to your kill file.

(BTW, yes Ellon is my wife, and I am not *defending* her.)

As for me, I moved here about 9 months ago....why????....because of a job.
As most of us computer professionals have.  Sure housing costs more...about
30-40% more than from my native Michigan, but I'm making 90% more than what
I was in Michigan as well.

Sure, when I got here, I bitched about the traffic and all the people (In
Michigan, when traffic stops on the freeways, someone better be dead ;+)).
But, I wouldn't trade living here for anywhere else.  Maybe you would, but
that is YOUR choice....I've made mine and so has Ellon.

Everyone is entitled to bitch about what they want to.  The part that
pisses most people off is that you are bitching and moaning about how
"bad" it is to live here, yet reaping the rewards of living here.  There
is such a thing as "trade off".  I gave up living on an island in a rural
area of Michigan to move to the hustle and bustle of the city (and also to
make a considerable increase in compensation).  That was my trade off (oh,
I also got a wife out of it!!! :+)) (Hi Honey)

My point, sure every place has good and bad points.  Sure you can buy a
house in Michigan for $200K that would cost $350K or more here.  But, I
can walk to the store in two minutes (as opposed to a 4.5 mile drive).

I made my choices....it's up to you to make yours.

	Just my piece,
	Bill
From: case@ucs.sdsu.edu (Steve Case)
Newsgroups: ca.general
Subject: Re: Leaving California
Keywords: quiting,california
Date: 26 Aug 92 15:58:18 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: San Diego State University, Data Communications

In article <4101@cruzio.santa-cruz.ca.us> harryd@cruzio.santa-cruz.ca.us 
writes:

Previous stuff deleted..
>In short, you can have just about whatever you want.
>Housing prices here range from just under $200,000 to over $300,000 for
                                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
>homes most would find suitable.
>If you're interested, I have a newsletter on Santa Cruz real estate. 
>Just send me your address via e-mail or call me.
>-- 
>Harry Domash
>Century 21 Award Real Estate  (408)688-1188

I doubt the poster intended highlight this, but "suitable" housing starting 
at $200K is one definite reason why people are leaving CA. We have 
vacationed a couple of times in SC, Capitola and Scotts Valley. From what we 
saw, even $300K won't buy you much house. Still, it is a nice area, though 
downtown SC was still a mess (from the 89' quake) when we visited last 
summer. 
--
Steve Case (case@ucs.sdsu.edu) | "Cover for me!"
Data Communications Group      | "Oh, good idea, boss!"
University Computing Services  | "It was like that when I got here."
San Diego State University     | - Homer's standard disclaimers.
San Diego, California 92182    | "My opinions only" - my standard disclaimer
Newsgroups: ca.general
From: adrian@ntmtv.UUCP (Adrian Brandt)
Subject: Re: Long Commutes (was Jumping the Good Ship California)
Organization: Northern Telecom Inc, Mountain View, CA
Distribution: ca
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 21:14:42 GMT

In article <2A9DFE5F.26863@ics.uci.edu>, mludwig@bonnie.ics.uci.edu (Michael Scott Ludwig) writes:
|> hill, not only are there carpools and vanpools, but since a few days after
|> the '89 quake, the Hwy. 17 Express bus has run between the Scotts Valley
|> Park & Ride Lot and San Jose, approximately every 15 minutes
|> peak-hours/peak-direction.  It's another reason why I have to wonder about
|> the people that drive alone and complain about the peak-hour traffic on that
|> four-lane highway.

There is also a bus service that goes from downtown Santa Cruz to the
San Jose CalTrain/Amtrak station.  It's not as frequent as the 17 Express,
but it's the way to go if you need to get to the SJ CalTrain station.

Call CalTrain for more info at (800) 660-4287.

-- 

Adrian Brandt (415) 940-2379
UUCP: ...!ames!ntmtv!adrian
ARPA: ntmtv!adrian@ames.arc.nasa.gov
Xref: sparky ca.general:1099 ca.politics:7113
From: pms@fuzzy.Corp.Sun.COM (Patrick Stirling)
Newsgroups: ca.general,ca.politics
Subject: An exhortation about State Taxes
Date: 27 Aug 92 18:49:43 GMT
Followup-To: ca.politics
Distribution: ca
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: fuzzy-bb.corp.sun.com



	S A V E    C A L I F O R N I A
	==============================


Attention California Residents:

Do you want to help California balance its budget and continue providing
top-rate health, education, and social services to its citizens? Then do
the following:

1. Pull out copies of your 1991 Federal and California State Tax Returns.

2. Look on Line 37 of your California tar return to find your total state
   tax for 1991.

3. Divide that amount by your total income found on line 23 of your Federal
   tax return, then multiply by 100. This is the percentage of your income
   that you paid in taxes to California in 1991. Are you surprised at how
   low it is? Don't forget that line 23 may already include deductions from
   your income.

4. If the percentage that you calculated in Step 3 is less than, say, 1% or
   2%, then you probably have some good deductions or a good accountant, or
   both. But don't you feel a little guilty that you're not paying your 
   fair share?

5. If you are feeling a bit guilty and you want to do something about it,
   then send a check for any extra amount that you want, together with a
   letter explaining why, to:

	Governor Pete Wilson
	State Capitol,
	Sacramento, CA  95814
Newsgroups: ca.general
From: rdippold@cancun.qualcomm.com (Ron Dippold)
Subject: Budget Deal - Quick Newspaper Poll
Organization: Qualcomm, Inc., San Diego, CA
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 17:30:14 GMT

Quick poll - our newspaper in San Diego has a headline today that
screams of staggering cuts in money from Sacramento.  Follow up with
wailing on how hard things are going to be for government workers.
Read the buried budget figures, however, and it turns out that the
city is actually going to be getting more money that it did last year,
and the state budget is larger than last year.  What it got was a cut
from its "expected increase" in funding, a number ridiculously over
the rate of inflation.

Any papers that actually reported the facts out there, or are the "Big
Budget Cuts Stagger City" headlines prevalent?
-- 
Nothing is ever a complete failure; it can always serve as a bad example.
Newsgroups: ca.general
From: rdippold@cancun.qualcomm.com (Ron Dippold)
Subject: Re: Jumping the Good Ship California
Organization: Qualcomm, Inc., San Diego, CA
Distribution: ca
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 17:58:46 GMT

kberry@sactoh0.sac.ca.us (Kim A. Berry) writes:
>o    The 1990 AFDC to citizen children of illegal aliens was
>     $249,000,000.*

>o    LA County Health Services spent $143.4 million in fiscal 1989-
>     1990 on health care for illegal aliens.*

>o    1/5 of those arrested during the LA Riots were illegal aliens.

>o    80% of Californians believe something should be done to
>     prevent further increases in their state's population.

>* Reference: The Outlook, May 9, 1991

The Grand Jury in San Diego, examining the social services department
after the welfare investigators employed (and muzzled) by the SSD blew
the whistle, concluded that welfare fraud here was at least as high as
30%, possibly up to 40%, and that from the documents that they had
they could absolutely prove 10% fraud.  The city, of course, has done
nothing about it, since it's mostly federal and state money, and they
don't want to do anything that would lessen the flow of that money
into San Diego, or would require a scaling back of the SSD
bureaucracy.  Some of the welfare case workers (not to be confused
with the investigators) in fact encourage fraud for this reason and
others.  The SSD's own estimate of welfare fraud, of course, has
always been in the low single digits.

I bring this up because so much of the fraud involved illegal aliens,
and even though we're right on the border, so many of them continue up
to LA, and our welfare problem is rather minor compared to LA's.

-- 
Do it today, tomorrow it will be illegal.
From: henry@ADS.COM (Henry Mensch)
Newsgroups: ca.general
Subject: Re: Long Commutes (was Jumping the Good Ship California)
Date: 31 Aug 92 17:40:00 GMT
Organization: Advanced Decision Systems; a div of Booz, Allen & Hamilton

markp@pro-palmtree.socal.com (Mark Panitz) wrote: 
->that person is right, there are a whole slew of mass transit service
->agencies in that Bay area.

well, yes, and no.  there are many mass transit agencies in the area,
but not all of them are well-coordinated.  the worst offender of the
lot, caltrain, works to compensate for this during rush hours by
providing shuttle service to major employer in areas which are not
well-served with other mass transit.

--
# henry mensch / booz, allen & hamilton, inc.  / <henry@ads.com>
From: jet@win30.nas.nasa.gov (J. Eric Townsend)
Subject: Re: Jumping the Good Ship California
	<1992Aug24.161009.26427@cs.ucla.edu> <1992Aug27.204648.29599@aero.org>
Organization: Numerical Aerodynamic Simulation, NASA Ames
Date: 27 Aug 92 14:28:38
Distribution: ca

"helfman" == Robert S. Helfman <helfman@aero.org> writes:

helfman> The problem with most people who complain about traffic is
helfman> that they have this perverse desire/need/compulsion to live

Personally, it's hard for me to afford to live *near* work.  It'll be
years for I make enough moola to buy a house within 20-30 minutes of
NASA Ames.  As it is, I'm going to have to get a roommate to just to
bring down the cost of renting.  

helfman> The difference, dear yuppies, was that I don't mind the
helfman> complexion of my neighbors. These idiots who commute to El

I lived in the barrio in Houston, and have knocked around the idea of
moving to one of the less violent parts of E. Palo Alto.  The only
problem would be that none of my friends from work would ever come
visit me. 1/2 :-)

--
             J. Eric Townsend --  jet@nas.nasa.gov -- 415.604.4311
           '91 CB750, soon to be replaced by a '92 R100R, DoD# 0378
      "Heads.  Heads.  Heads.  Heads.  Heads.  Heads." -- R & G Are Dead