From: xtifr@netcom.com (Chris Waters)
Subject: Re: Eating our other world friends & enemies
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 05:55:01 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

In <1992Jul27.035713.24540@oracle.us.oracle.com> mfriedma@uucp (Michael Friedman) writes:

>In article <m5km1g-.xtifr@netcom.com> xtifr@netcom.com (Chris Waters) writes:

>>Hmm, I'm not Gregory, but I think I can field this one.  Dolphins are
>>more developed than humans in the area of 3D "auralization" (a word I
>>just coined by analogy with "visualization").  IOW, they can hear in 3D
>>*much* better than we can.  Yes, I suspect that this is a component of
>>their intelligence (whatever the level of that intelligence may be). 

>Why do you think this is a compnent of intelligence?  Is the analagous
>process with sight a component of intelligence?  I hardly think so.
>Also, what about bats?

Yes, the analogous process is with sight, which is a _component_ of
human intelligence.  We tend to visualize things internally when we
think.  Dogs probably "odorize" some of their thoughts, and I suspect
that smell is a component of their intelligence.

Bats, like dolphins, probably do their thinking (such as it is) in
mostly sonic terms.  However, the evidence of brain complexity and
behavior studies would indicate that bats are not particularly
intelligent.

>>And, in the lack of any real evidence about the level of that
>>intelligence, I think that *any* assumption about intelligence *or lack*
>>on the part of dolphins is BS.  

>So what about house flies?

So what about 'em?  House flies are probably the only thing you've
mentioned that actually show *no* evidence of *any* intelligence. Bats
are pretty stupid by a human (or even dolphin) scale, but they're hardly
devoid of intelligence.  They can learn, and show vague traces of
abstract reasoning.  Most higher animals (e.g. mammals, and, to a
moderate extent, octopi) do.

>I would argue that we have conclusive evidence that dolphins are not
>intelligent.  They have not made a significant attempt to communicate
>with us despite the large numbers of them that we kill via things like
>tuna fishing.

That's hardly scientific evidence.  The fact of the matter is that
dolphins plainly are intelligent.  How intelligent is the question. 
More intelligent than dogs?  Almost unquestionably.  More intelligent
than chimps?  I don't know; I tend to doubt it.  As or more intelligent
than humans?  I find this extremely unlikely, but the fact is that we
just don't know.  We don't have many examples of handless, swimming
intelligent life forms, so we're not that good at measuring the
intelligence of such creatures.  

The comment above, however, only proves that they are not human, not
that they are not intelligent.  It may *suggest* a lack of intelligence
on their part but it is by *NO MEANS* anything like scientific evidence.
We don't know what motivates dolphins (aside from such obvious things as
food and sex), or what, if anything, they actually think of the
situation.  Don't anthropomorphize the beasts.

For that matter, I could counter-argue that for thousands of years, we
have been sending our young men off to war, where they are killed in
huge numbers.  By the reasoning above, this "proves" that humans are not
intelligent.  :-)

>>Lilly's research is suggestive, but may be influenced by bias on the
>>part of the researcher.  Or may not. [...]

>Perhaps you're even right, but to be quite honest, I don't plan to go
>back through deleted articles looking for what Greg said about Lilly.
>If you're going to refer to it like that please leave it in the
>article.

All he did was mention Lilly, there weren't any details worthn quoting. 
But if you're going to yell and shout about dolphin intelligence or the
lack thereof, it would behoove you to at least check out the available
research on the subject.  Dolphins are clearly somewhere between dogs
and humans in intelligence.  Exactly where on the scale they fall is
extremely hard to determine, however, because they are so alien to us.

But the original question was: is it all right to eat intelligent
non-human lifeforms?  The answer is, obviously, yes.  Almost all of the
meat we eat comes from lifeforms with some degree of intelligence. 
Intelligence is a scale, not a unique human attribute.  In fact, some
chimps are probably smarter than *some* humans.  There is wide variation
within species as well as between species.
-- 
Chris Waters    | the insane don't | NOBODY for President!
xtifr@netcom.COM| need disclaimers | Because Nobody's perfect!!