From: rsr@soda.berkeley.edu (Roy S. Rapoport)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: This thread is disturbing to me (Re: whatever )
Date: 15 Sep 1992 10:06:08 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley, CS Undergraduate Association
NNTP-Posting-Host: soda.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Sep14.170609.18432@tfs.com> ecsd@tfs.com (Eric C. S. Dynamic) writes:
->
->I'm saying no woman or man has the right to make another person
->wrong about their native desires.

*blink* Surely you're not serious, Eric?

Now, if you were to say that "no woman or man has the right to make another
person wrong about their native desires as long as these native desires
don't impinge on other people's freedom/privacy/choice," I'd agree ... but
you opened yourself quite widely.

Hmm ... let's see.

Suppose, for example, you wanted to rape me.  (Not that you would ... I
*know* you wouldn't want to rape me.  Very few people would *wide grin*).

Do I not have the right to make you wrong about your native desire to rape
me? Perhaps not.  I do have the right to defend myself physically if you try
... or argue with you and try and convince you that you're wrong, if you try
to claim that this is a native desire of yours and as such is right.

Of course, we may be a bit unclear on the concept of "native desires"
here... 

->I know what I read and hear versus what I experience locally "on the
->ground". Locally, I don't know any men who threaten women sexually,
->so I'm operating in that context with the above.

Hmm ... locally, I assume, is in the bay area, because you work at TFS ...

You're right, Eric ... I don't know of any men who threaten women personally
either ...

I do know what rape has done to three of my friends (one of which male, who
had to witness it while his ribs were being cracked) ... so I know of some
men who have threatened women ... because I know these women. 

It does happen, Eric.  And I know that it's happened in the bay area,
because it's happened in U.C. Berkeley.

->The metaphor is "men as big shaggy lovable dogs". They may be crude in
->expression but their heart is in the right place.

Heh ... then you know very few men, Eric ...

Not all men's hearts are in the right place.  Not all men have a heart.  And
if I I were a woman (which in this society, I'm thankful I'm not), I'd
certainly worry more about these men than about the harmless men... because
harmless men are, well, harmless ... the other ones are most definitely
not.  Sounds a bit misanthropic (assuming misanthropic is the right word
here ... what's a word for a person who hates the male gender?) of me?
Perhaps.

->refuse sexual requests. If it's a cumulative misunderstanding starting
->from an unclear statement I make in the opening, I will have to more
->careful to be precise to avoid misunderstandings.

That sounds like a splendid idea, Eric.

->"No" is fine, "No, and you haven't any right to consider me sexually,
->and I'm going to make you miserable for asking" is not, when the approach
->is not crude or threatening. 

*grin* Eric, who is to define "crude or threatening?" The person making the
approach, or the person being approached? I'd think it would have to be
whoever had the lowest tolerance/threshhold ... 

->The general idea is that it needs to be made
->safe for nice people to express sexual interest in each other.
->That's about all I was driving at.

Weeell ... some caveats here ...

A) For nice people to _politely_ express sexual interest in each other.
B) In the right circumstances and locations, that's true ... I don't know
   what kind of atmosphere is maintained in Ellen's hottub, and whether
   that's the type of atmosphere that would be conducive to such expressions
   of sexual interest (nor am I going to make a conejecture for fear of
   making more of a fool of myself in front of 60,000 of my closest friends
   :) ) , but expressing sexual interest there is inherently different from
   expressing sexual interest down here at my cluster, where doing so would
   be frowned upon (to say the least) by the person being approached,
   probably (wouldn't know ... never happened to me), and the general staff,
   definitely (do know ... I've had to deal with it as staff).

I was going to finish by saying that women do need places where they know
they won't be advanced upon by men with sexual offers ... 

Then I looked down at myself and realized that my knowledge of women is
highly limited, and speaking for them is probably not the best idea in the
world ... so I'm going to let the (decisively vocal, thank God) female part
of this group to take care of the rest (and Mike ... though he's sort of
honorary female by now, I'd think ... or at least deserving of it).


-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roy S. Rapoport       rsr@soda.berkeley.edu      wi.5836@wizvax.methuen.ma.us
Disclaimer:  "It wasn't me!! Must have been a fake posting or something!! I
              would NEVER say something like that!!"