HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gordon@lugh.think.com (gordon linoff)
Newsgroups: ne.politics
Subject: Re: Sex ed in school
Date: 14 Aug 92 13:56:40
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: lugh.think.com
In-reply-to: murph@buscard.fidonet.org's message of Thu, 13 Aug 92 17:24:54 EDT

In article <8ZRgPB1w164w@buscard.fidonet.org> murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy) writes:

   dbrooks@osf.org (David Brooks) writes:

	. . .
   > >vote in favor of funding sex education in school, universal medical care, 
   > 						   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   > That one doesn't really belong with the rest.  I suspect it's just Brian
   > lumping his favorite peeves together.  For the record, I grew up in the

   Not really.  The original poster suggested that we must somehow take care 
   of "defective" (for lack of better word?) babies who are born instead of 
   aborted.  Universal health care is what I assume that poster to be in 
   favor of and is just another of those hot buttons that we've been 
   pressing lately.  Might as well get this one while we're at it.

The original poster has a name: Gordon Linoff.  If you want
his opinion on universal medical care, you can ask
(politely).  Nothing in the posting remotely suggested it.

The reference you are making is probably to my pointing out
that the infant mortality rate for black children in Boston
is three times higher than that for whites.

I do not consider black children "defective" (with or
without quotes).

The fact is that prenatal care for pregnant women increases
the mortality rate of their children; more children live,
and yet you oppose such programs.  This is why you are
called anti-abortion or anti-choice.  Life is not the issue
for you.

Despite you all-condemning bible, I also do not believe the
"sins of the father [or mother]" should be borne on the
children.  A mother who cannot afford adequate medical care
should not be condemning her child to death (once born).  It
is sad when babies die in their first year because of lack
of access to medical care.  It is shameful when that happens
in the United States.

For every dollar spent in the United States, the government
saves $1.77 during the first year of life (and considerably
more later on).  Why are protesters spending thousands of
dollars to blockade family planning clinics when that money
could be spent on really saving the lives of children and
unborn fetuses?

Providing adequate medical care for pregnant women does not
require universal health care, as you and your church are
probably aware.

--gordon

PS.  Babies are not killed by abortion, fetuses (and
possibly zygotes) are.
From: rnewman@bbn.com (Ron Newman)
Newsgroups: ne.politics
Subject: Re: Abortion: What does God say?
Date: 12 Aug 1992 16:50:45 GMT
Organization: Bolt, Beranek & Newman, Inc.
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: spcsun25.bbn.com

In article <8N6cPB1w164w@buscard.fidonet.org>, murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy) writes:

>  I don't believe in 
|> the Islamic religion (forgive me if I have the terminology incorrect, I'm 
|> not up to speed in that religion) but it _is_ the fastest growing and, I 
|> believe, the oldest religion we have going.

Umm, no.   Islam is built upon foundations established previously
by Judaism and Christianity.  Many other religions, such as
Buddhism, Hinduism, and Shinto, are also older than Islam.

-- 
Ron Newman		rnewman@bbn.com
From: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
Newsgroups: ne.politics
Subject: Re: Foreign policy musings
Date: 21 Aug 92 14:18:22 GMT
Reply-To: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
Organization: The Business Card (BBS), Lawrence, MA - Data: 508-682-5329

bzs@ussr.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:

> Actually, I think the most under-rated and one of the best reasons for
> our reaction to Iraq was Hussein's taking of 400 American hostages
> (er, guests.)
> 
> That was a direct challenge to *US* sovereignty in a way that
> historically has often been dealt with harshly. And well should be.

You overlooked president James Earl Carter.

> Of course, this was after our imposition of sanctions. But some things
> just have to be off-limits or face the consequences. Established govts
> taking random civilian nationals hostage has to cross that line.
> 
> If you doubt that, mentally place yourself in the place of one of
> those hostages, held prisoner for two or three months, and tell me
> what you'd be asking your country to do.

We needn't mentally place ourselves anywhere when we can ask the hostages
recently released that were TAKEN DURING DEMOCRATIC WEAKNESS.

                                      - - - Murph

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Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: dlw@odi.com (Dan Weinreb)
Subject: Re: Sex ed in school (WHY JONNY CAN'T READ MUSIC)
Reply-To: dlw@odi.com
Organization: Object Design, Inc.
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 22:57:54 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.033915.4301@redsox.bsw.com> campbell@redsox.bsw.com (Larry Campbell) writes:

   Johnny can't read because he spends all his time watching TV.
   Take away the TV's and you'd see a marked improvement in
   school performance.

   It is no accident that the decline in SAT scores correlates
   almost exactly with the enormous increase in TV watching (lagging
   by the ten to fifteen years between the early stages of video
   hypnosis, before school age, and the time students take the SATs.)

So you have fit your theory to the data.  That doesn't prove anything.
It would be nice if someone could do a controlled experiment, but it's
hard to imagine how that would be possible.

   We have no television in our home.  I have never owned one.
   My older son, who is now ten, is a voracious reader, and reads
   well above his grade level.  Would he be reading as much, or as
   well, if we had a TV?  I doubt it.

I watched a lot of TV when I was growing up.  I also read a lot of
books and got a great education.  I do think that restricting quantity
and type of TV viewing is a reasonable choice for a parent to make,
but I don't think there's good reason to believe that the cause and
effect is as simple as you describe.
From: bzs@ussr.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Foreign policy musings
Organization: The World
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 02:57:18 GMT


From: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy) [responding to me]
>> Actually, I think the most under-rated and one of the best reasons for
>> our reaction to Iraq was Hussein's taking of 400 American hostages
>> (er, guests.)
>> 
>> That was a direct challenge to *US* sovereignty in a way that
>> historically has often been dealt with harshly. And well should be.
>
>You overlooked president James Earl Carter.

Being as I presented no specific examples outside of Iraq I suppose I
"overlooked" all of human history...Thank you for pointing out one
example.

>We needn't mentally place ourselves anywhere when we can ask the hostages
>recently released that were TAKEN DURING DEMOCRATIC WEAKNESS.

And the hostages (Lebanon) taken during and held for almost all of the
Reagan and a good part of the Bush administration? You mean it was
DEMOCRATIC WEAKNESS that kept Terry Anderson hostage all those years?

I don't doubt you aren't pleased with examples that don't fit your
preconceived opinion.

--
        -Barry Shein

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Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: bzs@ussr.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Sex ed in school
Organization: The World
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 03:17:37 GMT


From: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
>So, you don't mind forcing a condom in my kid's hand but if I force your kid
>to pray, you'll call me Hitler?

"Forcing" a condom into your kid's hand?

Yes, I would mind if they *forced* a condom into your kid's hand, tho
I doubt it would do him/her/it any harm.

That's the problem, you have to grasp for straws and exaggerate to
make your point.

No one is fooled, Murph.

When I went to public school, as a non-christian, they FORCED me to
pray to another god. They threatened me with disciplinary action for
protesting (and even carried out their threats.)

No thanks.

If they tell your kid they're sending him/her/it to the principal for
not wearing a condom call me and I'll commiserate.

Maybe if when you were a little boy and tried to remain seated while
everyone else in the class was told to stand and sing Christmas
carols, because little kids are kind of rigid in their beliefs and
maybe really believe that they're not supposed to sing praise to a god
they've been taught is not theirs, and then were scolded and told to
leave the room and stand outside until you learn to behave and finally
had to humiliate yourself and apologize because ya know they're adults
and what the hell do you know and fighting with them just seems to
make matters worse you'd know what it is you're talking about.

As it is you don't.

I'll ignore your Hitler strawman. You don't rate the label.

>Don't you think a better way is to issue vouchers to the parents to spend on
>the kind of education that is important to them?

No.

You don't build a society by sending everyone off in their own
direction to do their own thing. Sorry, we got to learn to get along
in this boat, not to each demand our own boat.


--
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
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Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: dlw@odi.com (Dan Weinreb)
Subject: Re: Give 'em a Right then a Left
Reply-To: dlw@odi.com
Organization: Object Design, Inc.
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 19:06:21 GMT

In article <Bst8Ft.8wB@world.std.com> cmr@world.std.com (Charles M Richmond) writes:

   "eight-month" , "9-month fetus" .... "that's pretty damned close to a person"
   !?!?!?!?!?!?!

   Anyone who considers a an unborn child of 8 and 9 months to be a fetus and
   only potentially a person , is espousing views that are as extreme as any
   I have heard on either side of the debate!!! 

If are so bad at distinguishing between degrees of extremity as that,
you have very little sense of proportion.

   As far as your 70% who believe that abortion is the taking of a life vs the
   70% that believe in abortion rights.....  I believe in abortion rights and
   I recognize that abortion is the taking of a life. This is why it is 
   regarded as such a serious procedure by the bulk of the population

Yes, that's exactly what I said.
From: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
Newsgroups: ne.politics
Subject: War's a funny thing
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 00:04:09 EDT
Reply-To: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
Organization: The Business Card (BBS), Lawrence, MA - Data: 508-682-5329

richb@kronos.com (Rich Braun) writes:

> Time for the Democrats to demonstrate how we can set an example for the
> rest of the world, and perhaps even extend a helping hand.  Sometimes that
> hand will hold food and supplies, and sometimes it'll have to hold an
> assault rifle.  That's the price of civilization.

What's THIS?!?  A "semi-Liberal Democrat" promoting _war?_

I've been waiting for this opening.  When the war in the Gulf was coming to a
close with an incomplete conclusion, in my mind and the minds of almost
everyone, all I could think of is how the Liberals would have screamed if we
went in and "finished the job" instead of sticking with the stated purpose of
our involvement - the driving out of Saddam's forces.

Can you imagine?  Suppose we stayed for another week or three and sent home a
few hundred body bags for the effort - can you hear the howls?

No.  At the time, we did what was right.  We finished what we started out to
do which was free Kuwait in concert with the United Nations and our allies.

Hindsight is always 20-20

BTW:  It makes my skin crawl to think that the United Nations sets the policy
for our country.  We shouldn't need U.N. permission to do what we think is the
right thing.  None of our actions need to be sanctioned by any other country
or world body.  Subordinating our sovereignty to any other entity is
tantamount to tyranny.

                                      - - - Murph

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From: yodaiken@chelm.cs.umass.edu (victor yodaiken)
Newsgroups: ne.politics
Subject: Re: Barry Shein:  Has he ANYTHING constructive to lend to debate?
Date: 18 Aug 92 16:03:08 GMT
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst

In article <3iPmPB2w165w@buscard.fidonet.org> murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy) writes:
>Until he comes to his senses, I, for one, will discount his rantings and
>ravings as nothing more than emotionalism - certainly nothing to base a debate
>on.

If you advocate grossly inhumane positions, you should expect people to
become upset about them. It's interesting that you are able to calmly
call for starving poor children  and "enforcing" strictures against
homosexuals because their behavior makes you uncomfortable, and yet are 
so sensitive to criticism. 

Words for the day: "empathy" and "sociopath".

-- 


yodaiken@chelm.cs.umass.edu
From: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
Newsgroups: ne.politics
Subject: Re: Sex ed in school
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 11:10:36 EDT
Reply-To: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
Organization: The Business Card (BBS), Lawrence, MA - Data: 508-682-5329

dlw@odi.com (Dan Weinreb) writes:

> murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy) writes:
> 
>    No, a mother who cannot afford adequate medical care should not be having 
>    babies.
> 
> I really cannot believe that you said this.  So only well-off people
> should have kids.  What a great solution.

Is there something wrong with my statement?  Do you think it's a good idea to
be having babies you can't care for?  What is your definition of child-abuse?

The nub of the debate is that there are some real and serious consequences for
sexual intercourse without knowing what you're doing and getting into.  I'm
sure we both agree that the thing to do is prevent the consequences at the
get-go.  We differ on how.

You seem to say that education is the way to go - and I agree.  But, who's
going to be doing the educating?  For my part, *I'LL* educate my own kids,
thank you.  In that way, I know they're getting all they need to know.  As the
old saw goes: "If you want something done right, you gotta do it yourself."

You see, we're talking about sex education in school and I contend that sex
should be taught at home to save the taxpayer money and to make sure that your
brand of sexuality is not taught to my kids and my brand not to yours.

You don't seem to like to hear me suggest that sex before marriage is a bad
idea.  I certainly don't like hearing you imply that sex any time you feel
like it is fine and dandy as long as you're wearing a condom.

You don't think a compromise on our positions can be reached by simply keeping
sex ed out of school and in the home?  If not, why is it a bad idea to pray in
school?

                                      - - - Murph

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Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: bzs@ussr.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Homos in school, too?  What next?
Organization: The World
	<1992Aug19.014150.941@spdcc.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 04:48:16 GMT


Moiph...
>This is perfect, though, and a perfect example of where discrimination might
>be justified, in _my_ view.  Teachers are role models for children; that's a
>fact we all have to agree on.  Having homos for role models is WRONG!


I can't let this one go, this Murph the Serf is just too much...

So tell us something Murp, Catholic schools have very good records for
educating kids.

Yet, almost all their classes are taught by nuns.

Now, let's consider the sexual habits (ahem) of nuns. None, celibacy.

Clearly that's unnatural for the human race in general, even if you
personally hold it as an extrapolation of your personal sexual ideals.

I mean, with role models like that how do we ever have kids to have
role models for???

Yet, by your own reasoning, they make terrible role models because
they have, shall we say, uncommon sexual practices.

So tell us again which friction and exactly when and where and how is
ok to make a good teacher? And how deeply should we investigate this
issue?

And once again, how do you measure up, if ya get my drift?

--
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
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From: gjc@mitech.com (George J. Carrette)
Newsgroups: ne.politics
Subject: Re: Foreign policy musings, THE REAL PRICE OF OIL
Date: 21 Aug 92 18:22:57 GMT
Followup-To: mitech.com>

Organization: Mitech Corporation, Concord MA

In article <2456@mitech.com>, gjc@mitech.com (George J. Carrette) writes:

[Dont' you hate it when people followup their own articles?]

> That $50 a barrel price and the economic impact would have
> been a crisis for every elected leader of a western country.

Furthermore, that price would have made it a heck of a lot
more difficult on the new-free countries of eastern europe.
Those countries were dependant on the Soviet Union (at the time)
for their energy supplies.

> Therefore I beleive that every U.S. Senator that voted against
> the January "Desert Storm" ...

Was also voting against the breakup of the soviet union.

-gjc
From: rdonahue@spdcc.com (Bob Donahue)
Newsgroups: ne.politics
Subject: Re: Sex ed in school
Date: 14 Aug 92 19:07:39 GMT
Organization: insert anything here

murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy) writes:
>
>We do not live in a perfect society.  Families will be split, idiot 
>parents will fail in their parental responsibilities.  The best we can 
>hope for is to minimize these circumstances before they occur by 
>stigimitizing stupidity.

	Oh, goodie!  Can we start with you?

	Your first statement here of course doens't result in the
second statement.  You should also look up the spelling of one of the 
words above...  Your homework will be to figure out which one it is.

BBC
Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: I'm in a gay mood!
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 23:22:22 GMT

In article <0q4uPB4w165w@buscard.fidonet.org> murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy) writes:
>bzs@ussr.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:

>> So tell us Murph, what are your sexual preferences?

>I like llamas.  My favorite newsgroups are alt.sex.gerbils.duct-tape and
>alt.sex.aluminum.baseball.bat.  I demand the same rights as the homos.
>
>Should I have them?

Sure.  As long as you can find us a llama that will demonstrate
consent.  :)

If you want newsgroups for your fantasies, read the FAQs and do a
RFD/RFV to get them created.  Or just create them, you did name "alt." 
groups.

Please remember to create an alt.sex.gerbils.duct-tape.flame and
alt.sex.aluminum.baseball.bat.flame so that you won't have to listen
to all the flamage those groups will generate.

Adam
Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all.  How true that is.
From: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
Newsgroups: ne.politics
Subject: Re: I'm in a gay mood!
Date: 21 Aug 92 15:05:08 GMT
Reply-To: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
Organization: The Business Card (BBS), Lawrence, MA - Data: 508-682-5329

bzs@ussr.std.com (Barry Shein) writes:

> From: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
> >Gays and lesbians have more rights today than at any other time in history.
> >They won't be happy, however, until they cram their unnatural sexuality down
> >everyone else's throats.  I use the word "unnatural" with much deliberation.
> >
> >This lifestyle should not have equal standing with other lifestyles.  The
> >distinction?  While it is good to teach your children that there is nothing
> >wrong with or to be feared from a racial minority, such is not the case with
> >this unnatural sexual preference minority.
> 
> 
> So tell us Murph, what are your sexual preferences?

I like llamas.  My favorite newsgroups are alt.sex.gerbils.duct-tape and
alt.sex.aluminum.baseball.bat.  I demand the same rights as the homos.

Should I have them?

                                      - - - Murph

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Newsgroups: ne.politics
From: bzs@ussr.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Education, deficits, morals: you can't have it all
Organization: The World
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 00:54:43 GMT


Mr Murphy has a career awaiting him writing screaming headlines for
the Herald.

It's all good guys and bad guys and that's that.

Perhaps we should just summon all his bogey-men liberals to the camps
for extermination and it shall be paradise on earth shortly
thereafter.

Or perhaps he's just a loon.


--
        -Barry Shein

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From: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
Newsgroups: ne.politics
Subject: Bearing arms: our first line of defense
Date: 21 Aug 92 17:56:11 GMT
Reply-To: murph@buscard.fidonet.org (Brian Murphy)
Organization: The Business Card (BBS), Lawrence, MA - Data: 508-682-5329

richb@kronos.com (Rich Braun) writes:

> The USA is much more progressive than many nations when it comes to
> discrimination, but deep down underneath I fear we could revert to the
> kind of conditions we see in other ethnically diverse countries in the
> event of a major collapse or takeover of our shaky government.  Given
> the lack of participation in politics, our government is remarkably
> weak and unable to represent the views of its citizenry, much less to
> establish & enforce a reasonable majority consensus.

Let's talk about gun control.  It's a bad idea.  A well-armed citizenry
prevents abuse by the government.  When the Liberals start taking all our
guns, you can be justified in fearing the government.

                                      - - - Murph

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From: kvk@questor.sw.stratus.com (Ken Koellner)
Newsgroups: ne.politics
Subject: Re: Abortion: What does God say?
Date: 15 Aug 92 14:34:33 GMT
Distribution: ne
Organization: Stratus Computer, Software Engineering


God sez, "Hit 'k' now!"


-- 
An amazing insight may have paid you a fleeting visit and then retreated.
Resist the temptation to chase it; it is faster than you are.  Value your
glimpse of it, and invite it to return some other time.      -John Bitmap
Newsgroups: ne.politics