From: billms@eecs.umich.edu (William Mangione-Smith)
Subject: Re: Lighten Up Francis 
Organization: University of Michigan
	<BxtqEE.JL2@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> <BILLMS.92Nov16150121@gip.eecs.umich.edu>
	<BxuD1r.Bnx@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 14:43:01 GMT

In article <BxuD1r.Bnx@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> gtao@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Greg ) writes:

   billms@eecs.umich.edu (William Mangione-Smith) writes:


   >And I think you are an ass too.  The difference is that I've got a reason,
   >right here.  You lump all michigan fans together.  Do you do that with all
   >other groups too?  Are all blacks the same?

   Did I ever call you an ass?  No.

I'm sorry if you had trouble following the discussion.  You said "you and the
people from your school are obnoxious" to which I replied "and I think you
are an ass too".  Say it out loud, its a relatively common verbal idiom,
though maybe it didn't translate into text very well.

   That's one of the problems I have with "you people".  The responses I
   have been getting from Michigan fans have been, for the most part, belligerant
   and rude. I welcome any arguements, but please refrain from personal attacks 
   against me.  Kinda tells you something about the individuals who are guilty
   of this.

You called me and all michigan fans obnoxious and now your getting on your
high horse about me being rude.  I may have been imature in responding to
your post in the same tone you used, Greg, but you fired first.

   >I never built up Elvis reputation, I simply stated the facts about his rating
   >last year since you were wrong in your posting. 

   Well, if you misunderstood what I said, then I apologize.  I have been 
   skimming this group for a while, and I notice that you are a frequent
   poster, so you should be well-aware that I am not a frequent poster to
   this group. 

After a saturday game, there are usually a hundred or more posts.  There were
a hundred this morning.  It might surprise you, but i don't remember all of
the names.  Specifically because of this, I go out of my way to not accuse
somebody of holding an opinion unless I am sure of their position, and I'm
not confusing them with somebody else.  Thats why I get upset when people
don't give me the same treatment.

   >Go back and look at the stats.  FSU beat Michigan pretty soundly on the score
   >board.  But they did not shut down Elvis.  Furthermore, his biggest problem
   >in that game was two td interceptions, where the ball didn't make it 5 yards
   >past the line of scrimmage.  If you saw the Washington game you would have
   >noticed that the key was the front 7 pressure, and had nothing to do with a
   >specific defense of the deep routs.  Your ranting goes a lot farther if you
   >throw in a fact or two along the way.

   If, my memory serves me right, the 2 TD interceptions were thrown 
   behind the receiver, and the DB was just smart enough to look back. 

Your memory is completely 100% wrong.  Not even close.  The first one had
Buckley jumping into the gap on a quick 3 yard hitch that was on the money,
he caught it on the fly.  The secon one had elvis hit while throwing.  The
ball goes up straight in the air, spins twice, and is picked off by the guy
(lb or nt, I think he was *real* slow so it might have been the nt) standing
*next* to elvis.  It never crossed the line of scrimmage, let alone got in
the vicinity of the receiver.  Again, if you think Elvis is overrated and
really not that great, say so.  Fine, thats an opinion and I wouldn't say a
word.  But if your going to try and provide facts to back that up (this is
r.s.f.c, *nothing* requires facts unless you are Mark Mitchell!) and your
facts are wrong I'm going to call you on it.

   receiver...sometimes, the coverage dictates it. My point is that I
   have never seen any sign of arm strength from Grbac, granted I'm not
   a Michigan fan, so I don't pay attention to every last second of the
   games, but the highlights of his "spectacular" passes were shown on the
   news after the games, and none of his passes was particularly pretty. 
 
Good.  Here I agree with you.

   >Ahh, the final defense.  You were wrong, but your not mature enough to admit
   >it so you come back with the score.  Great case you've go there.

   Maybe it's just that you are plain ignorant.  Michigan fumbled the ball
   10 times according to the _Chicago Tribune_ (sorry for stating that it was
   11, tho' none of you caught it before me:), rolled up 523 yards of total
   offense according to UPI, YET ended up in a 22-22 TIE with an UNRANKED team.
   It's funny how the Michigan fans on the net are trying to play down the loss 
   I wonder if any of them were among the 100,000+ fans that Booed their team
   off the field after the game?  In light of the "stats", it looks like the
   score did tell a story:  Michigan was shooting blanks!

You said Jason was a better college qb last year in the standings than Elvis,
and I said that he wasn't and stated my measuring stick.  You brought up the
score in responce.  The score in last saturdays game has nothing to do with
last years qb performances.  Its a pretty minor point, maybe we should drop it.

   >Not at all.  Michigan has had great teams over the last 20 years.  And they
   >*always* disappoint their fans along the way.  I'm used to it.  I still think
   >your bitter, but only because you haven't provided any other explanation for
   >the anger you spewed at Michigan.

   Yeah, and it's usually in the Rose Bowl.  Sorry, I couldn't resist that 
   one. 

Like I said, I'm used to it.  Personally, I try not to kick people when they
are down, but I've been know to do it at least once or twice when they've
annoyed me.  I find that these things tend to even out, though.

   You need to seriously lighten up and take things a little less seriously.
   As I've said before, I've noticed that you are a frequent  poster to this
   group, so you are probably well aware that there has been a lot of un-
   opposed Michigan "woofing" going on.  Geeze, I take one opportunity to 
   bring you guys down to Earth, and you jump all over me.  

I don't care if you don't like my team, or want to slam the people who were
woofing UM up.  Woofing and slams require flames, intimidation, and taunting.
See Illini alum Doc Exby, he always gets a rise out of some UM posters.  But
follow his lead, don't use facts unless your sure their righ or they will
jump up and bight you.  Doc, well he never let the facts get in his way.  

   >You called me, and all michigan fans, obnoxious.  I've never said that about
   >your or Illinois fans.  You called my coach a jerk.  I've never said that
   >about you.  You slammed my best receiver from last year and this year, along
   >with my qb, as undeserving.  I've never slammed your team or players.  I did
   >call you overbearing in your post, and I'll stick by that because of the bile
   >you spewed forth unprovoked.  So far, though, I think I'm ahead on the polite
   >scale GUY.

   Your coach IS a JERK.  The man wouldn't shake hands with the coach from 
   Northwestern.  The story as reported in the news was that several teams
   approached Northwestern's football program and warned them that Michigan
   had been leaving 12 men on the field until the last possible minute in
   certain situations.  That is ILLEGAL.  From what I gather, Moeller was
   irked at the fact that NU's coach warned the officials ahead of time
   about Michigan's pattern of misconduct.  You cannot deny that Moeller is
   a jerk for that.

The story that I heard in the Chicago tribune was that Moeller and the NU
coach didn't shake hands.  Being near Evanston, they asked him and he made
the superman comment that I didn't make sence.  Its not clear to me why
Moeller chose to not shake hands, or if something else prevented him to.  I
doubt that you've got the full story either, but that doesn't keep you from
condeming the man.

   You need to use some common sense.  Extrapolating that I was referring to
   every single Michigan fan in the world is rediculous, since I barely

Right.  But if you state it as if you do I might tend to get annoyed and
respond negatively.

   know everyone in Chicago yet:)  Insinuating that I was "calling you 
   names" is silly.  Getting so irate when I questioned the quality of
   your team and then launching a barrage of personal attacks, directed 
   solely at me, is just plain rude. 

Again, as far as I'm concerned you attacked me first with your comment about
"you and the other obnoxious michigan fans".  But lets just let it die, ok?

Bill
--
-------------------------------
	Bill Mangione-Smith
	billms@eecs.umich.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.football.college