From: exukjb@exu.ericsson.se (ken bell)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,alt.individualism
Subject: Re: Libertarians, guns, etc.
Date: 15 Sep 92 18:41:28 GMT
Organization: Ericsson Network Systems, Inc.

In article <fulton.716495198@silver> fulton@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Ben Fulton) writes:
>From: fulton@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Ben Fulton)
>Subject: Re: Libertarians, guns, etc.
>Date: 14 Sep 92 18:26:38 GMT

>In <1992Sep14.010444.11220@news.stolaf.edu> adams@mari.acc-admin.stolaf.edu (Brynach ap Adda) writes:

>>to buy one's freedom or be ransomed by another. Upward mobility existed
>>between the farmers and the warriors as well. There was privilege, and
>>doubtless abuse of privilege as well, but there was also the recognition
>>that all elements of the society were necessary. I doubt they would have
>>withheld the basic necessities of life to anyone, simply because "you
>>have to pay for these things."

>Neither would I, or any other libertarian.  I think you'll actually find
>that libertarians are *more* generous with their money, not less.  But
>the essential point of libertarianism is whether a person has the right
>to force another person to be generous with their money.  

>>resister and sending the money to charities instead. But I'm not going
>>to let my desire to control capital, possess weapons designed to kill
>>people or even practice my religion in peace (not that I think the 
>>Libertarians could do more to ensure religious freedom than, say, the
>>Democrats) translate into support for a party that says government has no
>>business helping anyone. What the hell is it supposed to be for?
>>What the hell are *we* supposed to be for?

>What is the government for?  To protect natural rights, i.e., against
>violence, and against fraud, and to adjudicate disputes.  What are we
>for?  To do whatever we want, if it does not harm others.  Ideally, to
>help others in time of need, to treat everyone fairly and equally,
>and to support causes and movements we agree with.

>>Maybe Libertarians really are very generous people. Maybe they just
>>can't stand the idea of their money being used to buy food for people
>>who might be racist, religiously intolerant, rude, boring, bad-smelling
>>or devoid of good taste, just because they're people and people 
>>deserve to be treated well.

>No, not really.  I contribute money every chance I get to those who need
>it.  I make no value judgments.  But I don't like money being stolen from me.

>>Or maybe they have so little faith in
>>the ability of governments to provide services with any efficiency
>>at all that they think we ought to stop trying, and let private
>>efforts replace these governmental functions.

>Dead right.  Compare the welfare system with, say, United Way, or almost
>any church group, and tell me which provides more for less money.  Followups
>to alt.individualism.



>-- 
>ben                                     fulton@silver.ucs.indiana.edu

>"A tight bunch of bastards who want to win while loving each other"
>- Dave Hasbrook, about the Indiana Ultimate team

That's the whole issue right there, ben.  People forget, or never really
learned, that government is force--not reason, eloquence, but brute force, 
as GW said.  Force is evil but necessary in our world. Hence, government
is necessary, but not, for all that, good.  Government cannot produce any 
good except of a negative kind; it can only prevent evils worse than itself, 
namely, the War of All Against All.  That's the only thing that justifies 
it.  So, to think of invoking it [that is, brute force] to coerce some to 
benefit others is also evil, the hieght of evil. Or, more charitably, it
betrays a gross misapprehension of the nature of government.  It is 
definitely not an eleemosynary institution!

Next time someone asks you to give to a charity, like the United Way, tell
him you already gave last April 15th.

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