HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: leonid@thyme.uchicago.edu (Leonid Andreev)
Subject: Re: Russophob Belov
Organization: University of Chicago CILS
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 22:22:03 GMT

In article <2514@cronos.metaphor.com> covdy@shemesh.metaphor.com (Ivan Covdy) writes:

>   Hence, V.Belov and his "Vse vperedi!" is a russophobic novel.

Well, it is really funny. The only thing I don't like here,
I really hate this stupid term "russophobia", this unfamous
invention of ( mentioned so many times here ) academician
Shafarevitch; All these patriots keep using the term in a
sense "russophob is a person who hates Russia and Russians".
Which is apparent b...shit! ( Yapp, maybe it is the other half
of the word which should've been substituted by ... )
By it's literary meaning, `russophob' should be a person who
IS AFRAID of russians! So why should we, jentlenetters, follow
these illiterate people and use this word at all? 


--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
| Leonid S Andreev,    Center for Information and Language Studies,  |
|  (312) 955 5012        University of Chicago, Chicago IL, 60637.   |
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Xref: sparky soc.culture.soviet:7618 talk.politics.soviet:7935 soc.culture.nordic:5629
From: thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: LENIN statues in FINLAND (Was: Cut
Date: 15 Sep 92 12:56:33 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki


> In article <1285@my.sm.luth.se> medev@my12.sm.luth.se (Alexander Medvedev) 
writes:
>>
>>Talking about statues... What about that nice piece I've seen in Turku, 
>> Finland?
>>It was a figure of Lenin in the center of the city (or should I say a bust).
>>Now, it's time for Jarmo to course to Turku and see if they have any communism
>>in Finland left!
>>
							Alexander
 

There are at least two Lenin statues in Finland, the bust mentioned above
before the Art Museum in Turku/Abo and a real statue in Kotka (about
opposite Narva). Helsinki has even Park im. V.I.Lenina (without
statue). Both statues are, of course, of Soviet origin. Turku/Abo
was even the "gorod-pobratim" with Leningrad, which explains the bust.

I'll bet the Lenin-statues will stay in Finland: the country will be
an elephant cemetery for these monuments. But we do have respect 
for traditions: as I previously wrote, the statue of Alexander II
still stands on the main square of Helsinki, before our university
(The former Alexander University with the czar as it's chancellor).

The last remaining Lenin-museum might be in the future the 
Tampere/Tammerfors Lenin-museum, which is situated near the place
where Lenin and Stalin met for the very first time (in 1905).

Finns have no plans whatsoever closing this Lenin museum, on the
contrary: the director of this museum, Mr. Aimo Minkkinen
has unofficially even made the suggestion that if the Russians
will get rid of the Mausoleum in krashnaya ploshad, the Lenin
museum in Tampere/Tammerfors will be glad to receive the
mummy! (This is no joke, folks...!) I second the motion!

And if the Russians might some day want to have the mummy returned,
it could easily be transported with train to Finski vokzal
(This IS a joke....!).
 
with the best regards
Tapani Hietaniemi, University of Helsinki

 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
From: viznyuk@physics.ucla.edu (Sergei Viznyuk)
Subject: Re: "democratic" Estonia
Organization: UCLA Department of Physics
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 92 15:33:47 GMT

In article <1992Sep7.072014.17204@jyu.fi> ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:
>In article <1992Sep4.150244.27136@physics.ucla.edu> viznyuk@physics.ucla.edu (Sergei Viznyuk) writes:
>>
>>  "free elected" goverment of Estonia ? Are you kidding,
>>Jarmo ? The "elections" in Estonia where 40% of population
>>is prohibited to vote are as "free" as those in South Africa
>>in 60-ies. And Estonians are going to repeat this show soon.
>>Estonia IS a fascist state by all parameters.
>>
>>S.V.
>
>C'mon dear Serega. The blacks in South Africa are not immigrants
>like the russians in Estonia who have come to Estonia mostly
> after the annexion/occupation of Estonia. It is a bit different thing.

  You know, dear Jarmo, that many (or most) Russians in Estonia,
especially in  Narva region, were born and
lived there all their lives, and are not immigrants. So this gives
me a right to reiterate to my assertion, that Estonia is a fascist
state. Enjoy your neighbour.
 Serega
From: dleschin@FEDS66.PRIME.COM (Dmitri Leschiner)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re:  Romanian language (was: Estonia)
Date: 7 Sep 92 02:07:30 GMT
Reply-To: "soc.culture.soviet via ListServ" <SCS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

>Date:         Sun, 6 Sep 1992 05:07:20 PDT
>From: "Alex Allister Shvartsman, EMF,
>              LKG2-2/T2 06-Sep-1992 0757" <alex@TOOK.ENET.DEC.COM>

>Sergei, could you please substantiate your assertion thet the "ORIGINAL
>script of MOLDAVIAN language was Cyrillic"? Could you also explain to
>us what is the difference between the Romanian and Moldovan languages?
>Also, if you do not mind, could you tell as WHERE is Moldova located
>and when were Moldovans forced to switch alphabets?

Though I'm not Sergei, I'd try to help, too.

Original Cyrillic church manuscripts in Moldovan (contemporary common
name is Romanian) language are dated back to 15 century, at least.
They were originated, I believe, from both Moldova and Volochia,
but most known source was Moldova, since it has been more important
political entity of the time. Most of Romanians (Volochians and
Moldovans outside Russian Empire) were "forced" (not really) to switch
alphabet by their own (secular) nationalists at XIX century, who
believed it will better reflect their ancient historical heritage
of being (linguistic) descendants of ancient Romans (which is no doubt),
and will also be more suitable for their Romanian (I mean language
family affiliation here) language as well (which is probably the case
too). Church writing tradition was broken by it, though. Moldovans of
Basarabia were "forced" (don't know how really "forcefully") to switch
it after being joined to Romania in 1918. Stalin in 1940 (or even later?)
switched them to "modern" sovietized Cyrillic graphics, with which they
were staying until 1989, when modern story began...

>As usual, with this line of questioning I am claiming that the
>above statement by Viznyuk is complete nonsense.

>Alex

Dmitry
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Subject: Re: "democratic" Estonia
Followup-To: talk.politics.soviet
Organization: Enea Data AB
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 03:54:08 GMT

Vadim Antonov (avg@rodan.UU.NET) writes:
>I see no
>difference between Communist forceful introduction of Russian language
>and the present forceful introduction of Estionian language by the
>"democratic" government. Again, even under communism nobody ever got
>expelled for knowing no Russian.

And no one gets expelled for not knowing Estonian. How about
checking up a few facts before you open your mouth? Not
getting citizenship does not mean "be expelled".

>The Estonian government seems to not recognize permanent residence
>criteria and base its citizenship law solely on ethnicity which is
>universally considered a kind of racism.

Please quote relevant parts of the Estonian citizenship law which
says that citizenship is based on ethnicity. Hint: you will have
severe problems with finding any.

-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
There are three sorts of Macedonians: Greek, Bulgarian and Macedonian

Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
From: ap@levangerhs.no (Andrei Prasolov)
Subject: Open letter to Patricia
Keywords: Russian culture, Russian soul, Bulgakov, Pasternak...
Organization: Hogskolen i Levanger
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 92 16:48:12 GMT

   Dear Patricia,
Do not listen to all these angry (or trying to look angry) men!
You are really "molodets"! Go on studying us Russians, writing books,
visiting xUSSR etc. Probably we shall understand ourselves better
if we know how we look like "from outside".
    
     Yours sincerely

              Andrei PRASOLOV
              Hoegskolen i Levanger
              Kirkegt 1, 7600 Levanger
              Norway

Tel. office 47-76-12656 
Telefax 47-76-12690
E-mail AP@LEVANGERHS.NO
From: dleschin@FEDS66.PRIME.COM (Dmitri Leschiner)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: What's Rakhov like?
Date: 7 Sep 92 19:09:17 GMT
Reply-To: "soc.culture.soviet via ListServ" <SCS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

>Date:         Mon, 7 Sep 1992 18:11:25 GMT
>From: Sergei Viznyuk <viznyuk@PHYSICS.UCLA.EDU>

>>In fact, this territory was `added' to the USSR only in
>>1944(43?), latter than any other part of that nice empire.
            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>  Not true. Tuva was added in 1948, and it has territory
>larger than Zakarpatje.

Tuva was added in 1944 (de jure; de facto, of course, in 1921, or,
better to say, even in 1914); I think, earlier than Czechoslovakian
Podkarpatska Rus' was occupied by Soviet Army.

D.
From: mmarkish@FEDS46.PRIME.COM (Mark Markish x2799)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: request for help on Marchenko
Date: 14 Sep 92 18:53:12 GMT
Reply-To: "soc.culture.soviet via ListServ" <SCS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

This is a call for help to those who have at hand _Moi_Pokazaniia_
by Anatolii Marchenko _in_Russian_.

Could you please quote for me Marchenko's words in Russian from
the following passage about his book:

  "The authorities subjected him to the usual interrogations and kept
   telling him: "You know, if you keep your ideas, even if you get out
   you're going to come back here. Why don't you just change and what
   everyone else does?" "I cannot", he said, "I am an honest man!"
   Looking at believers, he concluded that they were the only happy
   people in the prison camps, since they say "I am suffering for Christ",
   and accept what comes to them. "But I cannot be like them", he said,
   because I don't believe in Christ".

Also, please indicate the publisher, the year, and the page number.

Please reply via e-mail to mmarkish@feds46.Prime.Com

Thanks in advance, - Mark
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
From: mashina <novost@halcyon.com>
Subject: Idea for Masters Pgm
Originator: bbs@halcyon.com
Keywords: Russia, Mfg., Aerospace
Reply-To: novost@halcyon.com
Organization: The 23:00 News and Mail Service
Distribution: soc.culture.soviet
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 15:39:14 GMT

I have a good opportunity to pursue a Masters Degree in the next
year.The program needs to relate to Manufacturing Technology
, Manufacturing and Russia.  If anyone has any ideas, please 
forward them to me via E-mail.  
                  Thanks
                     Jeff
From: dima@maths.uwa.oz.au (Dima Pasechnik)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Shafarevich
Date: 9 Sep 1992 03:30:06 GMT
Organization: The University of Westrn Australia
NNTP-Posting-Host: madvax.maths.uwa.oz.au

sergei@upenn5.hep.upenn.edu (Sergei Borodin) writes:

.........
>   I had an impression reading this news group for a while that there was
>   terrible antisemitism in Russia. It was impossible for a Jew to get 
>   admitted into a decent University, to get a decent job there after.
>   But now I hear that, nonetheless, the science in Russia is done by Jews.
>   I don't know what to beleive in, now (it's a cry from my soul)!!!  

Let me try to resolve this paradox.
Well, the problem of enrollment in Moscow Univ., FIZTEX, MIFI has
appeared in seventhies. E.g., when  I was trying to get into MIFI in 1980, (I
failed not because of my nationality, I'm jew in 1/4), it was funny to
look at the list of people failed to pass the first exam (written
math.), since it consisted of jewish surnames at 50%. 
Several people, like teacher of Moscow school #2 Senderov, were jailed
as political prisoners for their attempts to fight against that in
198(?). 
My grandparents were heads of laboratories in an institute  of Academy
of Sciences at Moscow, and their staff was jewish in 30-40%, as far as I
remember. I doubt, however, that it was possible in late seventhies and
later. 

Dmitri Pasechnik
dima@maths.uwa.oz.au
----------------------------
All opinions are mine.
From: sergei@upenn5.hep.upenn.edu (Sergei Borodin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Shafarevich
Date: 8 Sep 92 19:59:50 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania




 zhelud@drfmc.ceng.cea.fr (Andrei Zheludev) writes:

>>In article <1992Sep3.080520.15047@cco.caltech.edu> patricia@cco.caltech.edu 
>>(Patricia M. Schwarz) writes:

>>About this Shafarevich person: I don't know anything about him, or what
>>he has said or written, but I wonder how many of the Academy members would
>>be so concerned if he were guilty of sexism or hating black people or
                                                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>Moslems or Armenians or etc.etc.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>You are missing an important point: the science in Russia is done by _jews_
>and not blacks or moslems.

    I agree,  science in Russia is done by Jews rather than 
   Blacks. At least Jews have contributed much more to it than Blacks.
   (No offence to Black people).
   It might be true also that there are more Jews than Moslems in Russian
   science.

   I had an impression reading this news group for a while that there was
   terrible antisemitism in Russia. It was impossible for a Jew to get 
   admitted into a decent University, to get a decent job there after.
   But now I hear that, nonetheless, the science in Russia is done by Jews.
   I don't know what to beleive in, now (it's a cry from my soul)!!!  

> The _jews_ were always supressed by the russians,

   Quite contradictory with the first sentence.
   However, we also can see that _every_ nation was supressed by Russians
    - just ask our Ukranians, Balts e.t.c.
   BTW, what does it mean "always"? 
   
>probably because they were so smart and the party bosses in charge of science
>in Russia just were stupid and envied them.

  Who were smart Jews or Russians ? (reminds famous "kto na kom stojal?-
  potrudites' vyrazhat'sja jasnee, molodoj chelovek"). What happened later?
  Did they become stupid (I still don't know who are "they")?
  
  OR
  
  Do you mean the combination of both (logical AND)? : Jews were smart AND
  party bosses were stupid, that's why the latters supressed the formers.
  What does it have to do with the ethnicity then? Unless you mean that 
  there are no smart people among other nations. 
  This would be quite fascistic.

> I am russian, so I have the right
>to say such things.

  I am a Russian too. But what does it have to do with the right of speech?
  Were you a party boss, who had been oppressing Jewish scientists or you're
  just a not smart russian, who doesn't know what he's saying?  

>AZ

 S.B.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
From: ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti)
Subject: Re: "democratic" Estonia
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 07:37:33 GMT


: 
: Ever travelled to Estonia? Even in the years of Soviet Empire's
: prosperity the street names were in Estonian, the local broadcasting
: company and newspapers were in Estonian, Estonian was taught in
: schools (as well as Russian), internal documents forms were in two
: languages and the local Academy of Science had a known professor
: who with his numerous pupils made his dissertation on an Estonian
: word processor. I was in Tallinn more than once, so i can tell it
: not from the yellow tabloids you're using as sources.


I was just two weeks ago with my mountain bike driving around 
in Saaremaa, Estonia and meeting estonians quite often.
 A friend of mine worked at a university of Tartu
a month, a very good source of information. I was personally
in Tartu before the revolution and got informed.
Finnish press and TV follow daily what is going on in Estonia and we have
not just one newspaper and I can say that nearly every Finn knows
personally at least one estonian. The estonians work in Finland and
speak mostly Finnish too... the information what is going on
there is quite good, not to mention that Estonian TV is seen
in Southern Finland and vice versa....

Just two years ago the estonians had a change to make a dicision
that their own language is the official language of Estonia.Just
two years ago that was russian. There were of course estonian schools
but for instance in the shops of Tallinn you could not byu in estonian
very often. Today it is required that the staff speaks estonian.
At the University of Tartu even the doctorship works in estonian
linguistics had to be made in russian. I know personally an estonian
who was as child put into a russian speaking kindergarden to become
"a true soviet citizen."...the estonians were best to explain
everything how the russification process was done in practise and
I do not like to make list of those acts, it would take such a long
time. I think more than thousands stories better to understand the
situation is to reming that first two yers ago estonian became an
official language of Estonia instead of Russian. That tells everything.
Similar processes are going on in Uzbekistan,Kirgisistan, Tadzikistan etc.
were first now the language of local peoples reach a status of the
official language of the country. 

Jarmo Ryyti
: 
: 
: --vadim
From: zhelud@drfmc.ceng.cea.fr (Andrei Zheludev)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Master and Margaret and other books
Date: 9 Sep 92 13:07:25 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1992Sep9.090726.15487
Organization: Conspiracy International
Originator: verbits1@husc9.harvard.edu

In article <9209082144.AA15599@feds46.Prime.COM> "soc.culture.soviet via ListServ" <SCS-L@indycms.iupui.edu> writes:
>> From: "Mikhail S. Verbitsky" <verbit@BRAUER.HARVARD.EDU>
>> ....
>> Note that I (and kids) don't mean by Satanism that we all should
>> get a machine gun and kill people in the church. I mean rather...
>
>That matters little - about as little as what the Bolsheviks and the
>Nazis meant by Bolshevism and Nazism, respectively.
>
>> Anyway, I doubt that there is even one Christian book
>> as good as Master and Margaret.

>You should have read one, for a change.


Let's take a look at the most famous one, the Old Testament (stop!
I know it's jewish, but it's acknowledged by the Chrisians all the same).
All the patriarchs were mean, nasty and dishonest. Moses just went
killing the eldest child in every non-jewish family in Egypt just
to force local OVIR give the jews their visas. Ok, _he_ didn't do
it, but our God did it for him. In any case, I peronally
would prefere hell with Woland in charge to heaven with Jacob.

I don't completely agree with Misha too.
What does he call a Christian book? A _religious_ book? If so,
his statement is true. Bulgakov was a _talanted_ writer, and those
seldome write religious books. A book following the spirit of 
Christianyty? If this is what Misha meant he is wrong. Dostoevsky
is probably better.
From: verbit@brauer.harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Master and Margaret
Date: 8 Sep 92 11:16:37 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1992Sep8.071638.15463
Organization: Sozialistische Patienten Kollektiv

In article <1992Sep7.220426.28380@dxcern.cern.ch> GLL@fnal.fnal.gov (Gregory Landsberg) writes:
>In <1992Sep7.040836.2097@cco.caltech.edu> patricia@cco.caltech.edu writes:

>> Is anyone out there interested in a discussion of Master and Margaret?

M&M has its own peculiar cult in Russia. Fans can be easily
found near the entrance in Bulgakov's house (the famous apartment 302-bis).
They use to write on the wals of aforementioned house, and covered every
bit of free space with graffitti. Typical inscriptions are "Voland, save us!"
and "Begemoth, return!" (I have seen them :).

Fans spread over whole Russia; I could compare them only with 
trekkies in America. They are different, though: they are forcefully
against establishment. Most interesting fact, though, is that they are
all Satanists. I have spoken with one kid, and he explained me why
he believes in Satan. He said that God cannot and will not help
people, but Satan would. Of course, he argumented with quotes from
Master and Margaret.

Bulgakov created the whole generation of Satanists (note that most
of young hippies in Russia are ones, and there are lot of them),
a thing he never dreamed to achieve.

This brings us to a question: is Bulgakov's novel a Satanist 
writing? I have read several "pochvenniks" articles, where
quite reasonable people from patriotic-antisemitic wing of
Russian humanitaries were trying to prove that this book is evil since
it is Satanic. Personally, I doubt Bulgakov consciously wrote
a Satanist book, though, by impression on most unprepared
to great literature people, this book is such. It is not
wonder, though, if we remember that he (as well as Mandel'shtam
in a genuine verses "Kama" and "Esli b menya nashi vragi 
vzyali") wrote several Stalinist pieces, notably the play
"Batumi". From the justification of Stalinism (as in "Kama"
by Mandelshtam etc.) is not far to subconsious Satanism.

Anyway, I doubt that there is even one Christian book
as good as Master and Margaret. 

Note that I (and kids) don't mean by Satanism that we all should
get a machine gun and kill people in the church. I mean rather
the ambivalency between the force of Light - Christ and
of Darkness - Satan, which are both necessary and both equally
good/bad for people involved in them. Note also that I don't
share this belief, so don't flame me, rather flame Bulgakov.

Misha.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.spain,soc.culture.sri-lanka,soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.thai
From: bil@burka..aix.kingston.ibm.com (Igor Belchinskiy)
Subject: Re: Bulgakov
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 92 14:25:00 GMT
Organization: Be. I am.

In article <1992Sep7.194232.23946@physics.ucla.edu> viznyuk@physics.ucla.edu (Sergei Viznyuk) writes:
>In article <18g824INNm94@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> br105@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jeffrey A. Del Col) writes:
>>
>>Patricia:
>>	Thanks for the reference on Bulgakov's diaries.  I think 
>>THE MASTER AND MARGARITA is one of the best and funniest books I've read.
>>I always recommend it to my students and would love to use it in my
>>20th Century World Literature classes, but a reasonably priced paperback
>>edition just hasn't been available for some time. (I haven't checked this
>>for a while, so there may be one now.)
>
>  I wonder: did you (and Patricia) read M&M in Russian
>or an English translation ?  What I happened to see
>in book stores in US was really awful comparing to
>original text. Though I cannot imagine how one could
>translate "Master i Margarita" without losing 90% of
>its flavors.
> S.V.

Or how can one read M&M without knowing Bulgakov' biography
or Russia reality in thirties? 
Or without knowing history of France in XII(?) century,
"albigoitzy" (no dictionary at hands)?

One can - and you may see how looking at Ms. Schwarz :-)

They read it different way - one more work of fiction,
magic realism, conflict of Pilat, very amusing, all that labels, etc.

The same as when Ms. Schwarz make referencies to Pasternak - 
kogda Pasternakom i ne pahlo (when there is no any connection
to real Pasternak).

They cut it "po ih merke" (according to their tastes 
and level of understanding). It's unavoidable.

BTW, seems we have the same problem with Marquez hundred years.

>>I re-read M&M maybe once a year; I like it that much.
>>
>>J. Del Col
>>-- 
>>Jeff Del Col      *    "Reader, be tolerant of me. And of yourself.      
>>A-B College       *     And of the singular aspirations of our     
>>Philippi, WV      *     human race." --Czeslaw Milosz-- The Land of Ulro      
>>                  *