HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ccoprdj@prism.gatech.EDU (Jorge Diaz)
Newsgroups: rec.games.empire
Subject: Re: Making research meaningful
Date: 8 Oct 92 19:06:10 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology

In article <1992Oct8.004514.19747@paramount.nikhefk.nikhef.nl> hjpoell@paramount.nikhefk.nikhef.nl (Henk Poell) writes:

>Research isn't needed for balancing technology. More tech means less cash
>means a small army. So you can choose between long term and short term
>power. Isn't that good? 

Well, I agree, and I disagree.  I agree that research isn't needed for
balancing tech, and I believe that it's a very poor method of balancing
tech, because plague right now is just a nusiance.  Therefore get rid
of plague and research altogether.

I disagree that more tech means less cash and a small army.  While
that may have been the case in earlier games, it no longer is.

Before, when a game was 16 or even 8 ETUs, you would get little income
from civs and bars, because the income is ETU based.  In those days,
tech was expensive as all get out.

Today, 60 ETU games means that income is HUGE, and the cost of tech
is the same as it was in the 8 ETU games.  So you're getting more income,
and the cost is the same.  Cash is no longer a problem if you're making
tech.

My solution?  Make tech more expensive.  I suggested it once before,
and while a few people agreed it was a good idea, it was never heard of
again.

So, how's this:

Make the cost of tech ALSO ETU dependant: just like income.  Now, in
high ETU, high income games, tech is expensive.  In low ETU, low
income games, tech becomes cheaper.  It stays the same (relative to
incomes) now matter how many ETUs the game is.  Right now, tech
costs $90 per point made.  Let's assume that was based on the
original 8 ETU code.  Why not say that tech costs $10 per ETU per
point?  That makes it $600 per point in a 60 ETU game.  A little
severe?  OK, say $5 per point per ETU.  Now it's only $300 per point
in a 60 ETU game.  But now it's something precious:  If you make
it, you're going to pay through the *nose* for it.

Now you have to make a choice:  money, or tech.  You can't have both.
Unless you have 10,000 bars.  And this way, it becomes standard, regardless
of the ETU rates.  You can code it one way, and it stays that way for
every game you run.

What do you think?

-- 
Jorge Diaz                       | "I want you to remember, Clark... in all
Georgia Institute of Technology  |  the years to come, in your most private
Office of Information Technology |  moments...my hand at your throat.  I want
ccoprdj@prism.gatech.edu         |  you to remember the one man who beat you."
From: fsjfz@acad3.alaska.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.empire
Subject: Re: UA Invitational is over
Date: 8 Oct 92 12:18:49 GMT
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks

In article <70318@hydra.gatech.EDU>, ccoprmd@prism.gatech.EDU (Matthew DeLuca)
writes:
>      - = [   Empire Power Report   ] = -
>       as of Wed Oct  7 11:34:26 1992
> 
>         sects  eff  civ  mil shell gun  pet iron dust food oil  pln ship money
>Slushy_Po 295   92% 230K 5.4K 3.8K 634   13K  11K 2.4K  48K 4.8K 100   10   75K
> 27535.90
>Te-Awamut   1    0%  31    0    0    0    0    0    0    0    0    0    0 -303 
>     0.01
>          ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
>worldwide 4.6K  92% 3.5M 106K 109K  13K  88K 566K  30K 1.1M  69K 1.7K 670  3.0M

Hey! i made it to the end of the game with a sector left!

Since i abandoned the country to Slushy_Popsicle early last month, i was 
curious as to why i still had this sector, and 31 civs.  Did you feel sorry 
for me or what?  (Must have been the incredible respect i generated way back
when, eh?)

James Zuelow (Voor)
FSJFZ@acad3.alaska.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.empire
From: ranald@athena.mit.edu (Gregory L Yantz)
Subject: Re: making research meaningful
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 19:19:32 GMT

I would definitely have to agree with Henk that plague and research,
in their current form, are a useless feature, and gettinf rid of
them would remove an irritating nuisance from the game. That's all
you'd lose.

But I must admit that I think Jason's suggestions for how to make
research meaningful are neat. I think it would be cool to try them
out and see how they work. Unfortunately, MIT student or not, I
couldn't program my way out of a wet paper bag. Can anyone say if
these mods are doable? Would anyone be willing to implement them?

Greg  DAK/Ministry (ret)

"Please do not offer my god a peanut."
Newsgroups: rec.games.empire
From: hassink@cs.UAlberta.CA (Hassink Brian John)
Subject: Re: UA Invitational is over
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 14:45:58 GMT

[Power Chart and other stuff deleted for brevity]

>Fighting was especially heavy in the Syzygy [Guzzer], Sardar, Scratchy,
>EVIL EMPIRE, Metzada, and Pern cluster.  The first war occurred when Syzygy
>tried to take out Metzada early, and failed.  Metzada booted him off.

Sorry Ken, that was me [Scratchy] who went after Metzada, not Guzzer. :)

>Later, Syzygy and Sardar jointly attacked Metzada, and, after a long and

Read as Scratchy and Sardar jointly attacked...

>difficult battle,  eventually managed to knock out Metzada.  EVIL EMPIRE
>did battle with Syzygy, but eventually bowed out of the game, and Syzygy
>took Evil's island.  Finally, a war between Scratchy and Syzygy broke out,
>with neither side managing to make much ground.

But we had so much fun that Guzzer and I decided to co-rule Uruk in
Chainsaw. :)

Uruk, by the way, is comfortably in first place. [Sorry, I couldn't
resist that plug] :)

Hey Matt, when will we see an rge post? :)

[Remaining text deleted]



Brian.
hassink@cs.ualberta.ca
From: mytelka@codon9.berkeley.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.empire
Subject: Alternate strategies in Empire
Date: 8 Oct 92 20:22:18 GMT
Reply-To: mytelka@codon9.berkeley.edu ()
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: codon9.berkeley.edu

I have heard a number of comments about plague coding changes, mostly negative.
I think that I agree that it doesn't really create new strategies particularly,
which was my original goal. It's true that one can try varying risk levels in
a way not met by simply increasing tech cost either outright or through high
log scales, and that this can allow "lesser" players to try high risk/high
payoff strategies, but I agree that the benefit probably isn't worth the
effort. Below is a new way to create a lot more economic interest in the game.


At the beginning of the game, everyone chooses something to specialize in:
lcm production, hcm production or iron production. As they build tech,
they became capable of building higher tech types of whatever they specialize
in. For example, an lcm prodcuer who passes tech 50 can build tech 50 lcm's,
but only if they have tech 50 iron. Tech 50 lcm's are in turn required to
build say Sopwith's, which can be built by anyone at tech 50 who has the
appropriate raw materials. Anyone can make tech 0 materials (usable for
making tech, building cargos, etc). You can switch, but then you'll be way
behind on whatever you switch to.

Disadvantages: 

   It's a stupid sounding idea.

   It makes a lot of new items which have to be kept track of.

   Coding is non-trivial.

   It's not strictly realistic; nations don't specialize that much.
           Perhaps they should be able to make other stuff at tech-50.

   It adds to the complexity of the game.

Advantages:

   It creates differences between countries (different strategies).

   It forces countries to trade with each other to get raw materials.

   It creates natural alliances of complementary producers.

   It creates natural trade wars as countries attempt to monopolize an area.

   It creates true alliances, where knocking out one country of an alliance
        can cripple that alliance, so they all have to work together for
        common good (more real-world like).


Dan Mytelka, mytelka@mendel.berkeley.edu (Langerhans)
From: arminius@soc13.acpub.duke.edu (Ian Carter)
Newsgroups: rec.games.empire
Subject: Re: TYRO I LEGALITY (was: EMPIRE AT UMANITOBA or something like that...)
Date: 13 Oct 92 14:21:59 GMT
Reply-To: arminius@soc13.acpub.duke.edu (Ian Carter)


    I dunno, the post in question didn't seem like much of a flame to me.
Newsgroups: rec.games.empire
From: kpearce@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (BULLDAWG)
Subject: Re: Bloodbath 1 1/2
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 16:16:53 GMT

In article <71332@hydra.gatech.EDU> ccastks@prism.gatech.EDU (Kevin Stallard) writes:
>
>
>  Some of you guys haven't managed to break sanctuary yet.  The update
>is in an hour. (11:00 EST)  I will wipe all remaining sanctuaries after
>tomorrows update.
>
>Better Hurry,
>   Lord Mac
>


Yes, and some of us are having a serious time getting in.

Lord Mac, could you _please_ fix my password?

Also, the system seems to be down....

Ken
LSF

kpearce@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
            __          _____       ________
           / /\        //  __\     / /_____/\
          / / /       //  ( |||   / /\_____\/
         / / /        \\  \      / /_/___
        / / /           ))  )   / /_____/\
       / /_/__           )) )  / /\_____\/
      /______/\    |||__|| /  / / /
       \_____\/    \\____/    \_\/  (tm)

where I work, not where I play.
From: tarl@sw.stratus.com (Tarl Neustaedter)
Newsgroups: rec.games.empire
Subject: Re: Some REALLY SERIOUS gripes about empire
Date: 12 Oct 92 19:56:18 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

In article <reynolds.718915819@judy.cs.iastate.edu>, reynolds@cs.iastate.edu (Owen Reynolds) writes:
> STARVING -- There are two kinds of people in starving sectors: people
>   who ate three meals a day--eggs for breakfast, a sub and wine for lunch,
>   and a potroast for dinner--and people who ate nothing and are dead.
>     The latter have a legitimate complaint with the government, and I
>   fully understand their work dropping to 0%. The live ones have no real
>   grounds for a work slowdown.

Yes they do. Human meat tastes bad - so they get upset.

>     No, my big beef is with repairing damage. It just takes work. No lcms,
>   no hcms, just work. So does a 50% battleship just have one really big
>   dent in it, or what?

Well, it sailed into harbor, so you can assume that that half the ship
isn't missing. If either the right half or the left half were missing,
the ship would be missing too.

Seriously, the %effs don't indicate how much material is in question.
A 20% ship has all the LCMs and HCMs (the hull and superstructure),
but all the electronics and gizmos are missing. A 10% plane has the
airframe and motors, but none of the avionics.
-- 
         Tarl Neustaedter	tarl@sw.stratus.com
         Marlboro, Mass.	Stratus Computer
Disclaimer: My employer is not responsible for my opinions.
From: fsjfz@acad3.alaska.edu
Subject: Game!
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 12:06:50 GMT

Any ideas about when the next big game will start?  With Euro III and
Gatech both finishing up around the same time, how long before everyone
has recuperated enough (and caught up in school enough...) to start a new
one?
 
James Zuelow  (Voor)
FSJFZ@acad3.alaska.edu

Newsgroups: rec.games.empire
From: geg@beep.mis.semi.harris.com (Gregory E. Garland)
Subject: Re: Making research meaningful
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 17:14:08 GMT
Organization: Manufacturing Systems, HSS

Seems like it would be a lot more sensible to just add a morale factor
based on your research and happiness to make your troops fight
better.  Healthy, happy soldiers, sailors and airmen fight better, e.g.,
a simple(minded) approach would be to alter combat odds by say

odds = (normal odds)*(1+log(1+(yourHap-hisHap)+(yourRes-hisRes)))

choose whatever log base you feel appropriate.  This would make a
major difference early in the game if you decide to invade rather
than build tech.

You could also modify accuracy and damage in shelling and air combat
by some similar fashion since high morale soldier-boys "shoot
straighter"; let you planes take more damage before they abort a
mission, etc.

-- 
Greg Garland - Alive, occupying space, and exerting gravitational force

MS 62-024, Harris Semiconductor Sector, PO Bx 883, 
Melbourne  FL 32905.  geg@beep.mis.semi.harris.com

"Never let the facts interfere with your perception of reality."

Newsgroups: rec.games.empire
From: ccoprdj@prism.gatech.EDU (Jorge Diaz)
Newsgroups: rec.games.empire
Subject: Re: Some REALLY SERIOUS gripes about empire
Date: 14 Oct 92 12:25:06 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology

In article <Bw2v05.5Gy@nic.umass.edu> elf@titan.ucc.umass.edu (Wanderer) writes:
>reynolds@cs.iastate.edu (Owen Reynolds) writes:

>let's do away with food as a micro-management non-necessity.
>it's really not worth the effort.

Oh bullshit.  You've never starved out a country before?  Other than
your own, that is?

>>    No, my big beef is with repairing damage. It just takes work. No lcms,
>>  no hcms, just work. So does a 50% battleship just have one really big
>>  dent in it, or what?

>so have repairs over X percent use lcms/hcms, (say for instance 30% damage)

Or any % damage.  One of the big problems is that, if a ship gets damaged
far out to sea, it's usually easier to scuttle it and build a new one.

Why not have scuttling ships affect happiness (and therefore work)?  I mean,
your workers can't be too happy about having their families killed at sea
because you ordered a ship to be scuttled.

-- 
Jorge Diaz                       | "I want you to remember, Clark... in all
Georgia Institute of Technology  |  the years to come, in your most private
Office of Information Technology |  moments...my hand at your throat.  I want
ccoprdj@prism.gatech.edu         |  you to remember the one man who beat you."
From: fein@acsu.buffalo.edu (L. Fein)
Newsgroups: rec.games.empire
Subject: Whoop whoop whoop
Date: 14 Oct 92 21:19:21 GMT
Article-I.D.: acsu.Bw4r8A.5nn
Followup-To: /dev/null
Distribution: usa
Organization: Land Of Faa

Temekula: big turd in a little bowl.


BTW, good idea that Jorge had. About ships being scuttled at sea affecting
happiness. I mean, if it was that easy to do, they'd never have sailed 
the Yorktown back to Pearl Harbor in WW II..
From: vancleef@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.empire
Subject: Re: Governers and Co-players
Date: 8 Oct 92 04:01:48 EDT

In article <1ai7vtINNl64@agate.berkeley.edu>, mytelka@codon9 (Daniel Mytelka;612 Barker;x2-5110) writes:
> In article <1992Oct2.171933.16887@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> kpearce@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (BULLDAWG) writes:
>>keywords:  Governers, co-players, new code?
>>
>>	What does everyone think about adding some code to the server so that
>>co-players can be logged on at the same time as each other (no more 3 country in
>>use by...)?
>>
> Great. Now we have to worry not only about around the update attacks and
> executed files, but also attacks by multiple players at once. Can you imagine
> trying to counter an attack (whether an update attack or not) originating
> from half a dozen places from within an enemy nation? The speed of a macro
> plus the flexibility of a human. It would make single player countries
> obsolete, or at least fodder.
> 
> DSM, Langerhans (mytelka@mendel.berkeley.edu)
> 
> 

The reason that it works in GB is because play is slow enough which
actually demands it. In empire you are only limited by the scopes of
your BTUs and whatnot, in GB the distances involved are most important.

The reason that Governors were added was to reduce the responsibility
on the leader, while assuring that the race is attended to as necessary.
It is added more as a convenience, and allowing more people to get
involved in the game rather than as an advantage for anyone.

-Garrett
From: UD177385@NDSUVM1.BITNET (Chad Zabel)
Newsgroups: rec.games.empire
Subject: Blitz Game 2nd posting
Date: 11 Oct 92 13:00:14 GMT
Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computer Network

For the blitz game I'm running today.

The game has just been opened up.
First Update will be at 10AM Central time.

Host:   128.211.1.26
Port:   1617

Countries:  13-16, visitor
Reps:       13-16, visitor

Countries that have been pre-registered.

Yo                  CTE           Strimland
spitzbergen         Hackensack    Warsong
Azash               Oenone        ForkKnox
O'Bong              Dharma


The game runs until 11PM tonight and the winner is the one
who is on top of the power chart.

Thanks for all the people that registered in advance.

For those of you who are looking to get in use the visitor
country to find openings.

Chad.
From: ccastks@prism.gatech.EDU (Kevin Stallard, esq.)
Newsgroups: rec.games.empire
Subject: Bloodbath fixed.
Date: 15 Oct 92 03:05:09 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology


  Well kids.  Thanks to Karl Hagen, the <defunct> problem is fixed.
I apologize for the problems, and I'll try to fix any new ones quicker.
(crossing fingers)

Enjoy

Newsgroups: rec.games.empire
From: kmrobert@nyx.cs.du.edu (K.M.Roberts)
Subject: Re: Christmas Mods list...
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 92 20:36:55 GMT


	Slow_War and Sneak_Attack...

	I would like this added to Slow_War... the idea (IMHO) behind slow
war is that it is pretty obvious when a country starts placing their
armaments, mobilizing their military and turning their industries into 
WAR INDUSTRIES... none of these things are actually neccessary to do in
an Empire Game so Slow War would similate it instead...

	BUT, it should still be possible to try the Snaek_Attack...
it would cost a lot more money than a normal war due to all the secreecy
(Possibly have the money slowly disappear from the coffins) and it would still
be a two update wait (only the victim country would not see a change in
the relations...)

	BUT, what I think would be neccessary to add
is the possibility of the victim country
finding out about the attack... You could do this by having spy'ing
military have a possibility of
finding out about the plans...
The possibility of this would be dependant upon the happiness of attacker (mil
morale, will they take a bribe...) and the size of the victim army, (how big/
good is their intelligence agencies...)

	Some one else may have better ideas on how the possibilities of
finding out about the sneak attack should be determind, but I definately
think there SHOULD be a possibility... There were very few wars which were
a complete surprise!


	I also like the idea of Garbage... Would invite many new
things into the game...  WORRYING about plague... something people
have been talking about...  Garbage Scows... park these off the coast
of enemies attempting to spread the plague to them!  :)  make Distribute
a useful part of Empire...  just make country management a bit more important
and possibly catch it up with the importance of being a good  militarist!


	Now... on to Low Work... Effeciency SHOULD be connected to work...
think about it... not only are theactual laborers NOT showing up to work,
neither are the maintenance men, the janitorial corps... its like a general
strike across the board...  Make it so that low work slowly lets the sector
get run down and need fixing up...

	Then, when people went BACK to work... it would take a little bit of 
time to get the place back to normal working order...

	Trade Ships? I don't care either way...



--
kmr...                                      Fiction is created by writers
kmrobert@nyx.cs.du.edu                      Lies are concocted by liars
"I have engaged the                         Fiction is a string of lies
Theoretical Weasel!"                        I am a liar...
From: duelge@schaefer.math.wisc.edu (Jason Duelge)
Newsgroups: rec.games.empire
Subject: Re: Some REALLY SERIOUS gripes about empire
Date: 13 Oct 92 11:02:24 GMT
Reply-To: duelge@schaefer.UUCP (Jason Duelge)
Organization: Univ. of Wisconsin Dept. of Mathematics

In article <Bw1nED.DL1@acsu.buffalo.edu> fein@acsu.buffalo.edu (L. Fein) writes:
>In article <reynolds.718915819@judy.cs.iastate.edu> reynolds@cs.iastate.edu (Owen Reynolds) writes:
>
>To sum up, my ignorant, inexperienced friend, things are the way they are
>in Empire because (with a few exceptions) they work. And there are good
>reasons for keeping things like they are. You are complaining about the 
>very fundamentals of this game. (It *IS* a game, you know. Right? :)
>If the very basics of Empire disturb you that much, perhaps you should
>look for entertainment elsewhere.

I think we might have to stop calling you Land_of_Faadar and start calling
you Land_of_People_Without_a_Clue.
Jeez ... Barbary Coast inexperienced???
You sure don't understand the concept of humor do you?  I bet you play
empire 8 hours a day, don't you?

Jason -- Temekula

still retired, but incredibly amused by this recent thread.
-- 
 Jason Duelge  'Did they get you to trade your heroes for ghosts?'        
 141 Lakewood  'You better make your face up in your favorite disguise.' 
  Gardens ln   'In the bottom of our hearts we felt the final cut.'       
 Madison, WI   '(I) kept my heart in dark ruins.'
From: duelge@schaefer.math.wisc.edu (Jason Duelge)
Newsgroups: rec.games.empire
Subject: Re: Learning Experience!! or Geeze, guess I got him pissed
Date: 7 Oct 92 15:13:12 GMT
Article-I.D.: schaefer.1992Oct7.151312.17065
Reply-To: duelge@schaefer.UUCP (Jason Duelge)
Organization: Univ. of Wisconsin Dept. of Mathematics

>In article <6OCT199220555114@acad3.alaska.edu> fsjjp@acad3.alaska.edu (Whatya Want?  Get Screwed) writes:
>>=====>  As of 1930 tonight, 5 minutes after I completed this conversation
>>        with the DEITY (Also known as BattleZone, Dire_Straights and other
>>        fodderous countries) he removed access to my country and gave it to
>>        a newbie.  Also I would like the Empire community to know that he
>>        has access to numerous accounts and like to request 2 - 4 countries
>>        per game (1 from each of his accounts) and ally them to form a power
>>        block.  Since I will not be playing in any of his games again,
>>        AND HE CANNOT REMOVE MY STUDENT ACCOUNT (although he does have the
>>        power to do it) due to his being on the bottom of the power chart
>>        of Computer Consultants (hehe) and My not doing anything illegal .. 
>>        Hence I wished to warn the Empire Community of this guy .. 
>
I guess the thing that kills me the MOST about this whole thing is
Stuart_Hall calling someone else fodder.
About as funny as the ELF (not the elves of Mirkwood) calling
Soxland fodder.
Oh well ... i'm still retired, so leave me alone, and stop this
silliness.  wah, i don't like the deity.  wah, i don't care what
the sysadmin says ... WAH!!!
How about some game posts?  Are there even any games going on?!?!

Jason --- Temekula


-- 
 Jason Duelge  'Did they get you to trade your heroes for ghosts?'        
 141 Lakewood  'You better make your face up in your favorite disguise.' 
  Gardens ln   'In the bottom of our hearts we felt the final cut.'       
 Madison, WI   '(I) kept my heart in dark ruins.'
From: ts@chainsaw.ecn.purdue.edu (Thomas Ruschak)
Newsgroups: rec.games.empire
Subject: Re: Making research meaningful
Date: 8 Oct 92 08:18:39 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network

In article <1b04fvINN6g3@agate.berkeley.edu> mytelka@codon9 (Daniel Mytelka;612 Barker;x2-5110) writes:
>
>This is utter bullshit. It was somewhat true before start islands, but
>now when most games have start islands, there is no longer a playoff. Building
>a large army early is pointless against competent opponents; building tech
>is the only way to play.
>

	This is not quite true. It depends a LOT on how the world is made. For
example, as you mention, if there are no start islands, the tradeoff exists.
However, if there is a lot of unexplored land (say, having unexplored land
equal the the amount on start islands), then there is another trade off --- Do
I build ships to explore with, or build tech?

Tom