From: sethr@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (seth.r.rosenthal)
Subject: Re: Nazi camps
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 13:18:51 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.jewish

In article <1992Aug28.174440.19508@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>, s1137020@giaec.cc.monash.edu.au (Mariusz Prokopczyk) writes:
> stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:
> 
> >Look at this; all of a sudden, my parents and grandparents, who were
> >virtually forced to leave Poland in the 1920's because of the raging
> >anti-Semitism by the Poles (or, more accurately, Polish Catholics)
> >after independence, are now, all of a sudden, Poles.  Believe me,
> >my parents are NOT Poles and I am NOT a Polish-American.  My ancestors
> >were just about tolerated as much in Poland, our homeland for probably
> >800 years, as an Armenian is tolerated in Azerbaidjan or a Serbian
> >in Croatia.
> 
> >For newcomers to this group, I must re-post this.  WWII refugees that
> >belong to the same synagogue as my parents can forgive somewhat the
>                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ps.MP
> >Germans because they were just following orders, but they cannot forgive
>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ps.MP
> >the Poles, Lithuanians, and Hungarians who jumped on the bandwagon.
>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ps.MP
> .............
> 
> You are not quite clear in regard to your parents.
> Are they "now, all of a sudden, Poles" or shell we believe you
> that they "are NOT Poles"?
> And what "now, all of a sudden" means?
> Since one can start a business in Poland?
> This probably would explain why they "are" even if they "are not".
> 

Stan can surely speak for himself, but I would like to remind
the Polish participants here, that long before Hitler invaded
Poland, in the 30's the Polish government had banned Jews from working
in many professions, was conducting boycotts of Jewish businesses,
etc.  The boycott was effective enough among Catholic Poles to drive
many Jews out of business (and perhaps fortunately out of Poland
too).  This caused lots of suffering among the Jews.  If you get
Roman Vishniac's photo-essay about the pre-war years in Poland
you will be struck by how many Jews in Warsaw or Lodz for instance
had to become baggage porters or rag sellers, or how many Jewish
businesses had to close long before the German Nazis arrived.

> (refer to underlined lines) Is it not the reason why you call Poles
> antisemitic and intolerant because you cannot forgive them?
> Judging from your statement about the guilt one may conclude that Poles
> would be better off by having their own army to operate concentration
> camps. This would save us from hatred now and saved at least some
> Poles from extermination in the past. Very interesting.
> 
> Another thing is when I was in Austria I did not feel in the right place
> so I decided to migrate to Australia. That way at least I preserved
> image of Austria and its people as very nice to me, even if some rare
> persons behaved very "strangely" there in relation to migrants like me.
> Judging from the time your ancestors stayed in Poland (800 years)
> something must have keep them there.
> Because it was not a consciousness of being Polish, then what?

Jews were by nature extremely conservative.  About 60% of
Polish Jewry was still living essentially the way they did in the
14th century, including style of dress, civic institutions
etc.  The Enlightenment that came to Europe had only a partial
effect of bringing the Jews into the 19th or 20th century.  If Jews could
survive at all, they considered the conditions good enough
to stay put.  Quite a contrast to our values today.  A good example
is in Germany during the Middle Ages where Jews would be
expelled from a city, and would settle in smaller towns
in a ring around the city to stay close by.  Pogroms and
expulsions were not unknown in Poland, either.  Pabianice (from
whence a part of my family came) had just allowed the Jews to
live there again around 1800 after finally abandoning its
non tolerandus Judaius status.  Similar to Cracow where the
decision was forced on the city when it expanded to include
the Jewish town Kazimierce that was built to accomodate Jewish
merchants to the medieval fairs and markets, since Cracow also was
banned to Jews.  Jews lived in Kazimierce since at least the 13th
century, but in Cracow only since about 1800.


		Seth Rosenthal

Disclaimer: All opinions are my own, not my employers'.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish