HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami)
Subject: Re: How Much Did The U.S. Get?
Organization: Technion, Israel Inst. of Technology
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 17:43:30 GMT

In article <1992Sep12.200154.7725@ifi.uio.no> michaelp@ifi.uio.no (Michael Schalom Preminger) writes:
>
>In article <1992Sep10.180958.26254@discus.technion.ac.il>, davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami) writes:>
>                                  .
>                                  .
>
>> I think that not killing Saddam Husein (or at least trying the best to
>> do it) was a MAJOR mistake , again motivated by stupid righteousness
>> and incompetence.
>
>Quarreling about what is right or what is wrong is one thing. Moral is relative.
>
>But believing that Saddam still sitting as president is a "mistake
>motivated by stupid righteousness" of the U.S is to my opinion very naive.
>
>Nothing "righteous" in Saddam still in power. It is a practical choise done by
>the U.S thinking mostly about Turkey and the Curdish problem in the north, and
>Shia moslems in the south. After killing 250000 to punish Iraq and
>Saddam, Saddam is still the best choice for the U.S.
>
>No mistakes. The word is interests.
>
>Michael

I agree that interests play a major part in it, but the cover was
righteousness. I remember arguments if it's legal to send CIA agents to
kill the bastard. Wasn't it better if someone took out Hitler before
1933?

Th stupidity and mistake is gross no matter what's the excuse. 

Saddam is not the BEST option as Hitler wasn't the best option against
the Russians. Bush should have taken Saddam's head first and deal with
what problem there was in the north later. This was the right way. 
Bush himself made the comparison of Saddam=Hitler and I see no reason
to retract it just because Saddam was utterly incompetent Hitler.

The Kurduish/Shia problems are minor to the existence and rule of
Saddam.

David.
-- 
=============================================================================
  David Ben-Ami (irc: bigdav)      |   "I can resist anything but Temptation"
  s2780369@Techst02.Technion.Ac.Il |       Oscar Wilde
  davidba@Carmel.Technion.Ac.Il  davidba@Moav.Techniona.Ac.Il
From: pssres12@ucs.usl.edu (Vignes Gerard M)
Subject: Re: The Ugly Palestinian
Organization: Univ. of Southwestern La., Lafayette
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 02:42:52 GMT

	Everyone has a little bit of good in them.
	(although you may have to look pretty hard to find it :-)

						Gerard (Me!)

-- 

pssres12@ucs.usl.edu	Gerard Vignes, USL PO Box 42709, Lafayette LA 70504 USA

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Subject: Re: Fair Swap
Organization: Australian National University
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 00:39:40 GMT

makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:
>In article <1992Sep11.071520.1472@mcs.kent.edu> rayes@Snake.mcs.kent.edu (Sandra Rayes) writes:
># In article <18od2jINNquh@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein) writes:
># >In a previous article, bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) says:

># >>>Even though the arabs were a majority, there was no indication of permanancy.
># >>>I may reside in  Illinois, but since I have not shown a tendency toward 
># >>>permanancy, I am not considered a resident.  The Moselms never established
># >>>any provincial centers, Islamic schools, or any significant institutions in
># >>>Palestine.  They were there only by convinience, the convinience being that
># >>>massive Jewish immigration provided job oppurtunities in a financially
># >>>depressed area.

># >>Hogswill.  All this sort of crap has been pushed here before, but nobody
># >>ever provided evidence.  Can you?  

># >Take a look at "From Time Immemorial."

># And after you look at "From Time Immemorial", which many scholars have
># repudiated as being based on false information and has been highly
># criticized, read the book "Blaming the Victims" by E. Said and C.
># Hitchens.  This book explains how inaccurate "Immemorial" was in 
># a very detailed and convincing way.

>	There has been work. some of it published by Commentary magazine,
>showing how "Blaming the Victims" and other criticisms of "From Time
>Immemorial" are nonsense.

>	Oh, by the way, when you read "Blaiming the Victims", pay caareful
>to the part(s?) written by David Finklestein.  Steve Goldfield posted
>them to the net a while back, and the figures he gave not only did not
>support his conclusions, but actually made a stronger than what Joan
>Peters was atttempting to make.

Stronger what, I wonder?  Anyway, it seems like I have seen you post
essentially that paragraph maybe 3-5 times in the past year, but not
once did you try to support it.  I don't think you will support it
this time either, because I don't think you can.

Finkelstein's (very long) article contains a number of statements 
I disagree with, but on balance his analysis of Peters' book is 
spot on.  The few reviewers (Isaacs in Commentary was one I think, 
but my memory is fuzzy) who attempted to dismantle Finkelstein's 
analysis only managed to prove their lack of basic mathematical 
knowledge.  The only excuse I can propose for them is that Peters' 
book is so shoddily crafted that it is quite difficult to determine 
exactly what her claims are.  Basically it is just a hysterical 
tirade with a thin veneer of scholarship; any good propagandist
would be deeply embarrassed about this black mark on their profession.

>David Makowsky

Brendan.
From: rwerman@vms.huji.ac.il (ROBERT WERMAN)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Syrian Beats Jordan in Final
Keywords: Basketball
Date: 14 Sep 92 20:00:51 GMT
Organization: The Hebrew University of Jerusalem

Final score in Damascus Basketball final game,

Syria 78, Jordan 74.  The game was quite exciting,
although hardly of high quality.  It was covered
by both Syrian and Jordanese TV.
From: bgdv706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (Noam Tractinsky)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Fair Swap
Date: 14 Sep 92 03:14:01 GMT
Organization: University of Texas @ Austin

In article <1992Sep11.073925.3382@mcs.kent.edu>, rayes@Snake.mcs.kent.edu (Sandra Rayes) writes:
 
> More hogwash.  As I have pointed out innumerable times, but many of you
> want to close your eyes and plug your ears, Palestinians have a very
> distinct culture, language, food, etc...from other Arabs.  Cultures 
> do not become invented over night, but develop over time.  The Arabs
> of Palestine have identified themselves as Palestinians for at least
> 2000 years.  


	I have asked you several times in the past to provide a
	reference to the above claim. I have yet to receive
	one. Meanwhile, i'll keep my healthy skepticism alive.


I have recently talked to an elderly lady and asked her
> what nationality her parents were....she was stunned and said to me
> 'Palestinian, what else?'  So I said, 'I mean, what town were they
> born in?' She said 'The same town I was born in (Tul Karam)...and
> my grandparents were born there.  Everyone I knew was born there".
> Hardly sounds like a migrating people.  


	With all the respect to the elderly lady, are you talking 
	2,000 years now?


> In fact, I would point out that Palestinians, on the whole, were 
> *less* migratory than *other* Arabs.  Other countries, such as
> Saudi, had and still have very large migrating populations known
> as badu.  Palestinians, on the other hand, while having some
> Bedouin clans, were known to be Hadhar (townspeople) who are
> settled in a single village and Felaheen (farmers) who
> were tied to their lands.



	This is absolutely _irrelevant_. It has nothing to do with
	emigration. 99.99% of the Jews in Israel are either townpeople
	or farmers. Does that suggest that there was no Jewish 
	imigration to Palestine/Israel? Nonsense.

 

> Sandra.


Noam


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: How Much Did The U.S. Get?
Date: 9 Sep 92 13:02:51 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

In article <3745@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh) writes:
>I wonder how much money and/or oil the United States received
>for planning and participating in the invasion of Kuwait versus
>its full-scale war against Iraq?
>
>I also wonder how Saddam benefitted out of the deal - is he
>allowed to remain Iraq's President for life still?
>
>I wonder still, when the people in the U.S. will learn of
>these deep, dark secrets of the CIA ... will they blindly
>support the re-election of such a dictator?
>
>Reminds me of the movie, JFK, when it was said that it doesn't
>matter how many lives are lost or what the sacrifices are -
>as long as the business of war and corruption continues ...
>if it was $80 Billion back in the 60's and 70's, what the
>going rate today?

Well, at least we know that Oliver Stone's fantasies are your 
model for reality.

>
>When are people going to wake up?
>
>Anisa
> 


-- 
Anwar Mohammed                FREE       Graduate Student
anwar+@cs.cmu.edu              THE       School of Computer Science
Voice: +1 412 268 3043     KUWAITI       Carnegie-Mellon University
Fax:   +1 412 681 5739        POWS       Pittsburgh, PA  15213-3890
From: rothberg@bimacs.BITNET (Danny Rothenberg)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: A naive question about the law of return
Date: 10 Sep 92 19:35:59 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

In article <1992Sep10.143943.11216@cbfsb.cb.att.com> mmokhtar@attmail.com (Mazen Mokhtar) writes:
>
>  If I am one of the children of Israel and my ancestors converted from Judaism
>and accepted Islam, does this give me the right to emigrate to Israel? Is
>this logical?

No it does not.  In the 1950's (I think) a carmelite monk who had
converted to Catholicism from Judaism (he had been hidden in a
Carmelite Monastery during WWII) wanted to immigrate to Israel under
the Law of Return.  To cut a long story short, the case went all the
way to the Supreme Court in Israel which ruled that as he had
consciously rejected Judaism, and accepted another religion of his own
volition,it was impossible to consider him a Jew, even by the most
lenient definition.  (He then applied for, and received, citizenship
after following normal procedures for those not covered by the 'Law of Return'.)

A similar case took place here last year of a couple who called
themselves 'Jews for J' who were also rejected under the Law for the
same reason, despite the fact that they claimed they were still Jews.

>
>
>Regards,
>
>Mazen Mokhtar


--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Danny Rothenberg            |    ^     Ellul is here, so:  (I also forgive
Bitnet:                     | \-/-\-/   "Repent now!        everybody)
rothberg@bimacs             |  X   X     Avoid the Yom Kippur rush!"
Internet:                   | /-\-/-\      -Nero (aka Harry Blacker)
rothberg@imacs.cs.biu.ac.il |    V    Ketivah VeChatimah Tovah-Shanah Tovah
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.misc,misc.headlines,soc.rights.human
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Islamic Fundamentalism in Egypt Targets Christians as it Did Jews
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 21:58:46 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.132701.22837@imag.fr> oueichek@ngulu.imag.fr (Ibaa Oueichek) writes:

>  First, our dear friend Jake has only one obsession in mind : Israel and 
>its security. Let those "Palestinians" and "Arabs" starve,

Considering that Petro-wealth is primarily in the hands of Arabs and
not Israel, you have some odd ideas about starvation.  There is enough
money in the middle east to buy a villa and a Harvard education for
every Palestinean - if only there was a will for this.

>Israel has to survive, even if the price is the opression and denial of
>the rights of millions of Palestinians. 

As I have repeated here recently, Palestineans have more rights in
Israel than anuywhere else in the M.E.  Your talk of "oppression and
denial" is typical double-talk for oustiders' consumption.

>and i really doubt he has ANY sympathy towards the victims of this fanatism.

I wish that Christians in Egypt had even half as many rights and
protections as Palestineans in Israel.  At present, Palestineans in
Israel seem to have it better.  This is why the NY Times has chosen to
highlight some of the intolerant attitudes in Arab states (and Egypt
is actually way ahead of most Arab states, in this regard!)

Given a choice, would more Palestineans choose to move from Israel to
Egypt or would more Christians choose to move from Egypt to Israel?

[...]

>I wish it was wrong, but i've read a similar article in the French
>journal Le monde, 

2nd source for this...

>and it gave even offical Egyptian confirmation of the events

3rd source for this...

>If you wish more evidences : Hussein Badre (an Egyptian) has already
>stated that these events aren't recent, and that Islamic groups in
>Egypt used to target Copts as if they were their ennemies 

4th source for this...

>we are discussing if it's a FACT or not,
>and it seems to be).

Some realities are hard to deny, huh?

> Jake has proven to be biased and racist, but don't accuse the N.Y.T
> of "being biased 
> and racist" just because they have been quoted by such a person.

I challenge you to support your malicious slur on me.  Until then, you
are merely relying on ad hominem attacks to avoid fair criticism of
intolerance in the Arab/Islamic world. 



-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com               Pat Paulsen for President
American-Occupied New York                    This year he has a real chance!
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami)
Subject: Re: Prisoners or Hostages?
Organization: Technion, Israel Inst. of Technology
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 18:38:00 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.183521.21105@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem) writes:
>
>I have been thinking about the recent release of hundreds of
>Palestinians from Israeli prisons by Rabin's government. The US media
>have portrayed this action as an example of Rabin's goodwill; a positive
>gesture. I ask: why were these people in prison? If they are criminals,
>why are they being released? If they are not criminals, why are they not
>all released?

As I understand it, they are all convicted criminals who served 2/3+
of their time and do not have blood (Arab or Jew) on their hands.

Throwing stones and diturbing oreder is not political offense and might
be punished. There are many strictly criminal cases in the WB&G I GUess.

>I can only suspect that these people are some of the many that Israeli
>law allows to be detained indefinitely without charges. Are they not
>hostages? Are/were they not held for the purpose of suppressing
>opposition to occupation? How can Rabin be praised for doing what he
>ought to do? If he is still using them as bargaining chips, releasing
>them over time as a political gesture, how can Rabin be described as
>worthy of praise?
>
>A truly praiseworthy act would be for Rabin to release all such hostages
>immediately and get rid of the law which allows them to be made
>prisoners arbitrarily and without cause.


I guess that after the Arabs will stop their wave of terrorism such
step could be considered sibce Begin himslef caused this British
regulation "Nazi" regulaion. He was of course exaggerating.

>
>Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)

David.

-- 
=============================================================================
  David Ben-Ami (irc: bigdav)      |   "I can resist anything but Temptation"
  s2780369@Techst02.Technion.Ac.Il |       Oscar Wilde
  davidba@Carmel.Technion.Ac.Il  davidba@Moav.Techniona.Ac.Il
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: rayes@Snake.mcs.kent.edu (Sandra Rayes)
Subject: Re: Fair Swap
Organization: Kent State University
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 05:36:48 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.143647.15879@ennews.eas.asu.edu> makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:
>In article <1992Sep11.071520.1472@mcs.kent.edu> rayes@Snake.mcs.kent.edu (Sandra Rayes) writes:
>
># >Take a look at "From Time Immemorial."
>
># And after you look at "From Time Immemorial", which many scholars have
># repudiated as being based on false information and has been highly
># criticized, read the book "Blaming the Victims" by E. Said and C.
># Hitchens.  This book explains how inaccurate "Immemorial" was in 
># a very detailed and convincing way.
>
>
>	There has been work. some of it published by Commentary magazine,
>showing how "Blaming the Victims" and other criticisms of "From Time
>Immemorial" are nonsense.
>
"Blaming the Victims" is not the only book which criticized "...Time..."
Not to mention the fact that those scholars who did criticize "Time"
are more highly regarded and truthful than Ms. Peters is.

>	Oh, by the way, when you read "Blaiming the Victims", pay caareful
>to the part(s?) written by David Finklestein.  Steve Goldfield posted

Uh, that's Norman Finkelstein.  

>them to the net a while back, and the figures he gave not only did not
>support his conclusions, but actually made a stronger than what Joan
>Peters was atttempting to make.
>--
Look, any student of statistics can show you ways to turn numbers to
your favor.  But despite the figures and statistics of ALL the FOREIGN
elements of Palestine, the Palestinians (ARABS!!) always have, and 
always will be, in Palestine.  And they were there when Herzl's
followers from Europe landed there.

Statistics are a collection of numbers on paper...Palestinians are
HUMANS who have loved, tilled, and died in the land of Palestine.
While the partisans are arguing over numbers, Palestinian hearts
are bleeding for their homeland.

Sandra.

>
>David Makowsky
>makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: adam@sparkle.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Israel and Kuwait in the Spotlight
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 20:00:30 GMT

In article <EGGERTJ.92Sep10221531@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu> eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu writes:
>In article <1992Sep10.183041.26418@discus.technion.ac.il> davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami) writes:
>>   In article <EGGERTJ.92Sep9105159@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu> eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu writes:
>On the other hand, it _is_ illegal in Israel to form a political party
>which has a plank to remove the Zionist nature of the government.
>This would be possible by simple constitutional amendment, I believe.

Israel has no constitution.  It is governed by reference tothe
Declaration of Independance, and what are called "Basic Laws."  Basic
laws take more than a simple majority in the Kenneset to change.

>>   Jake was talking about the Israeli citizens not the West Bank. since
>>   the west bank is not part of Israel and its destiny is not clear yet
>>   one cannot expect Israel to allow the Arabs right in a state that they
>>   try to dismantle in fervor. The Arabs of Jerusalem got full rights when
>>   Israel annexed Jerusalem.

>I know what Jake was talking about.  I was merely showing that he was
>not correct, not either in fact nor in spirit.  You shouldn't pretend
>that the East Jerusalem Arabs got full rights after annexation.  They
>don't have them now.  Look at this:

They got the right to vote.  They did not get the "right" to be
drafted.  Do you advocate the drafting of Arabs citizens of Israel?
Would you call it slavery if it was implemented?

>Jews get to advocate Jewish hegemony in Israel.

Unless, of course, that hegemony infringes on the rights of Arabs.
Kach was declared illegal for advocating a Jewish state where only
Jews could have first class citizenship.

>Arabs don't even get to advocate the breakdown of Jewish hegemony in
>Israel.  They certainly don't get to advocate Arab hegemony in Israel.

Kach couldn't advocate a Jewish hemegony in Israel, why should Arabs
be allowed to advocate an Arab hemegony?

>You call that full rights?

Yes.  They have the right to emmigrate, unlike the Jews of Syria.  If
they don't like it, there are 22 Arab nations they can go to, and be
hegemonic in.  While, 21, Kuwait doesn't hand out citizenship..

Israel was created tobe a homeland for Jews.  Non-Jews can get
citizenship, and vote.  There are limits on what any party can
advocate.   That applies to Jews and non-Jews.

Adam






Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all.  How true that is.      
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: MUTLU
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 92 19:19:57 GMT
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac, Vancouver Island, CANADA

In article <BuBHvA.862@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> dam@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (David Morning) writes:

>Cross-posting only occupies a few extra bytes of disk space containing pointers
>to the groups. It doesn't save multiple copies of the article on your disk for
>easch newsgroup cross-posted to, just one copy and the pointers.

That is not correct - on DOS-based systems, like Waffle, crossposts create
an additional copy of the file in each directory required. As the admin of a
XENIX site that feeds a dozen or so of these WaffleDOS sites, I can assure
you that the crap coming out of Mutlu-con-sera@zuma rapidly and greedily
guzzles a lot of disk space.  While they are certainly a small minority on
the net, they deserve whatever small consideration we can offer them - alas,
with BattyTurk doing his thing, they will simply continue to do what they've
done in the past - drop ALL the groups where he appears when space becomes a
problem.

>Run a kill file on Mutlu if it bothers you that much.

Mutlu seems to have finessed into sera@zuma ... perhaps we'll see several
machine/user combinations, all one jump down from anadolu, as time passes...
I added soc\.culture\.turk to my KILL files long ago, so I don't have to
read his shit, but the folks using my Waffle system do, since Waffle doesn't
offer them the solace of a KILL file, and there's no way of knowing who
wrote the article without reading it. 

>Kill files give you the net equivalent of ear defenders. Wear them and ignore
>the loon.

When it works, it's great.... but it won't help those unfortunate enough to
be without them...

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Old Frog's Almanac - Public Access UseNet for Central Vancouver Island
     (604) 245-3205 (v32) (604) 245-4366 (2400x4) Waffle XENIX 1.64
Ladysmith, British Columbia, CANADA. kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay)