HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: wreck@fmsrl7.srl.ford.com (R. Cage)
Subject: Re: Wanted: info. on alternative car energy systems
Summary: Don't compare things you can't buy to things you can.
Organization: Ford Motor Company Scientific Research Labs, Dearborn, MI
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 21:37:01 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.053933.25597@monu1.cc.monash.edu.au> khchung@monu1.cc.monash.edu.au (mr kh chung) writes:
>Not quite.  The GM Impact (designed by MacCready et al) accelerates from
>0 to 100 in 8 sec, and has a top speed of 160 km/h.

(Actually, about 170, but who's counting?)

The point is, you can't buy anything like the Impact.
If you're willing to spend a small fortune on high-tech
materials like graphite for the body and even more on
the equipment and LABOR to fabricate it, you can build
yourself one, but it won't be at all affordable.

When electrics have a price less than 20% higher than
fuel-powered vehicles of the same performance, then
they will have arrived.  They haven't, yet.
-- 
Russ Cage   wreck@fmsrl7.srl.ford.com  russ%rsi.uucp@destroyer.rs.itd.umich.edu
  *  When Ford pays me for my opinions, THEN they can call them theirs. *

                           _Bad_ cop.  No donut.
From: dietz@cs.rochester.edu (Paul Dietz)
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: Re: NEWS: Pioneer Project: Solar Hydrogn Power
Date: 26 Jul 92 08:12:57 GMT

In article <JMC.92Jul25164425@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>, jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy) writes:

|> The key question about hydrogen is whether hydrogen pipelines are
|> a more economical way to transmit energy from the sunny parts of
|> the country than electric transmission systems.  The direct current
|> intertie between the Pacific Northwest and California, including
|> Southern California, transmits power almost as far as would be required
|> by a massive solar system.


I saw a description of the results of a study that concluded it would
be feasible and economically competitive to send electricity to Europe
from hydroelectric stations near the mouth of the Congo river, in Zaire.
600 kV was assumed, I think.  A problem was finding stable regions across
which to place the power lines ("stable" in both political and geotechnical
senses); four alternate routes were proposed.  The potential capacity of
that area was listed as about 60 GW (which could be built in stages).

	Paul F. Dietz
	dietz@cs.rochester.edu
Newsgroups: sci.energy
From: crb7q@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Cameron Randale Bass)
Subject: Re: Kill file in place, should save alot of energy ;-)
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 15:44:16 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.195800.21721@michael.apple.com> ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith) writes:
>I've added Dale Bass to my first KILL file ever.  This is a great
>moment for Dale, as he gets the singular distinction of having 
>committed net-suicide (by providing to me the command to add him
>to a KILL file) and having been found worthy of it (given that 
>I've not resorted to a KILL file in a decade or so of reading news,
>this is quite a statement!)
>
>I expect that this will save untold quantities of energy for 
>the net and net participants world wide.  ;-)

     Just curious, never had anyone disagree before, or did
     you just run out of texts in your search for your narrow definition
     of MARKET EFFICIENCY? 

     Digging a bit deeper in my stack, from Philips and Duncan's
     Marketing 7th edition by Carman and Uhl, we have under the
     heading "MARKET PERFORMANCE"

     "Static Efficiency

     1) Supply considerations.
        a)  The level of profits.  Are profit rates so high as to misallocate
            resources or so low that needed supplies are disappearing?   
        b)  The level of information provided to the market by sellers.
        c)  Efficiency in PRODUCTION (emphasis mine).
        d)  Utilization of existing plant capacity.  Is excess or a 
            shortage of capacity a chronic problem?
          ..."

     Need I go on? 

                              dale bass

     


-- 
C. R. Bass                                           crb7q@virginia.edu
Department of Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering
University of Virginia
Charlottesville, Virginia                            (804) 924-7926
Newsgroups: sci.energy,talk.environment
From: sss@netcom.com (Small Systems Solutions)
Subject: Re: NEWS: Pioneer Project: Solar Hydrogn Power
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 16:23:45 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <JMC.92Jul25164425@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> 
  jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU writes:

>The key question about hydrogen is whether hydrogen pipelines are
>a more economical way to transmit energy from the sunny parts of
>the country than electric transmission systems. 

Doubtful...

>For cars, I think liquid hydrogen is the only way to achieve the
>energy densities required.  The safety and insulation problems
>are substantial but solvable according to people with experience
>working with liquid hydrogen.

A casual reading of the industrial literature suggests that the very
best storage techniques allow for a H2 half-life in the tank of approx.
1 month.  This means about a 2% daily loss...

-- 
Small Systems Solutions                   1563 Solano Avenue, Suite 123
sss@netcom.com                                  Berkeley, CA 94707-2116

The above-expressed opinions aren't necessarily
From: houle@nmt.edu (Paul Houle)
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: Re: Running out of oil.  Was Re: Is car pooling for real? (was Re: Are
Date: 29 Jul 92 22:36:43 GMT
Organization: New Mexico Tech

In article <20372@sbsvax.cs.uni-sb.de> dietz@cs.rochester.edu (Paul Dietz) writes:

>Methanol has the advantage that it can be produced by straightfoward
>nonbiological chemistry, an inherently more efficient and controllable
>process.  I recently posted a note about a study of a newly proposed
>process that uses both biomass and natural gas as feedstocks, producing
>several times more fuel as methanol than could be derived by conversion
>of the biomass to ethanol, yet still retaining net zero CO2 emission
>(assuming no "mining" of soil carbon and fueling of the vehicles
>involved in biomass production with alcohol.)   The overall efficiency
>of this process for converting biomass and fossil energy to energy
>as embodied in methanol was about 70%.  The cost of this methanol
>came out to $.05/gallon of gasoline equivalent more than 1989 gasoline prices
>(both including distribution, taxes, etc.)

	And methanol can also be made practically by pyrolysis,  particularly
from woody plants such as fast-growing trees and hemp.  As methanol can
be produced practicaly both from biomass and fossil fuel feedstocks,  it
is particularly strong as a transitional measure.  As such,  methanol and
natural gas technologies are really good to develop now,  since there is a
good chance that we can make a transistion from fossil to sustainable
sources without changing a methanol-based car or gas stove.


-- 
Newsgroups: sci.energy
From: sherwood@fenris.space.ualberta.ca (Sherwood Botsford)
Subject: Re: low tech water pumping
Organization: University Of Alberta, Edmonton Canada
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 18:28:21 GMT

kencam@deakin.OZ.AU writes
> I have recently come across a book,Introduction to Appropriate Technology, R
> Congdon ed., Rodale Press 1977.  Peter D Dunn  presented a chapter on Energy  
in
> Rural Areas and particularly discussed his work on low tech pumps.  He
> describes systems proposed/developed by Payne, Kleen as well as work done on
> internal combustion, water-piston UHumphreyU pumps.
> I am interested in the practicalities of these systems as I see water pumping
> as the biggest single problem in irrigated farming systems.
> 
> Does anyone out there know what happened to Peter Dunn and this work; does
> anyone have interest/extertise in this area.  I would like to here from you.

Low tech pumps are not suitable for anything larger than subsistence level  
agriculture.  If you get larger than that, the economics are such that it makes  
more sense to use a high efficiency high tech pump.

That said:

Windmills opererating a simple lift pump are suitable for livestock and small  
fields.  But: Windmills are more expensive than a submersible pump of similar  
capacity.  If you have to run power lines, the windmill starts to look good.

Hydraulic rams are great if you have a suitable stream.  They are persnickity  
to get to run well, since they are really a resonant system.  I've yet to see a  
ram moving more than a few gallons per minute.

Newsgroups: sci.energy
From: wreck@fmsrl7.srl.ford.com (R. Cage)
Subject: Re: High-tech highways, chicken/egg (was: Is car pooling for real?
Summary: Entry/exit not a big problem.
Organization: Ford Motor Company Scientific Research Labs, Dearborn, MI
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 20:12:00 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.102940.12467@phillip.edu.au> x01233@phillip.edu.au writes:
>How would a car leave the system? This requires driver taking over 
>responsibility.

Correct.  Presumably, the system would notify the driver that the
exit ramp close to the destination was approaching, and make certain
that the driver was at the wheel before actually taking the ramp.
If nobody was able to take control, taking the next available ramp,
pulling over onto the shoulder, turning on the 4-way flashers and
calling for police/medical assistance would be a safe alternative.

>                The _system_ must increase the distance between the
>cars so as to retain the benefits of close spacing.

This sentence doesn't parse.

Cars pulling off on a ramp from a train of vehicles would leave
gaps in the train, certainly.  The remaining vehicles could then
close ranks to eliminate the gaps.  The number of vehicles taking
a particular ramp per unit time must be no greater than the rate
at which they can clear the exit end of the ramp, certainly.  This
has implications for merges into uncontrolled freeway traffic (which
might be jammed) or directly onto secondary roads.

>Turn offs increase the
>risk of bashing into something if something goes wrong with the system.

Of course.  However, a 1-second window of vulnerability per minute
is still a great reduction of risk.

>At the end of a controlled highway you would need to fan out to the non
>controlled road system and again this would reduce the safety (of being
>surrounded by barriers).

But it would be no worse than any other manual-control situation.
-- 
Russ Cage   wreck@fmsrl7.srl.ford.com  russ%rsi.uucp@destroyer.rs.itd.umich.edu
  *  When Ford pays me for my opinions, THEN they can call them theirs. *

                           _Bad_ cop.  No donut.
From: Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca (Nick Janow)
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: Energy Conservation
Date: 23 Jul 92 06:28:49 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world

mancus@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov (Keith Mancus) writes:

> Do you realize how much sunny area will be needed to run heavy industry day
> in and day out?

dean@vexcel.com (dean alaska) just posted some figures for possible energy
savings using currently available technology.  This was 44% to 75%.

That is for "currently available" technology.  I doubt that that applies to
some of the energy-intensive operations of old industries.  For example, the
steel industry uses large amounts of energy to heat the metal, then large
amounts of water to cool it.  How many of those foundries recovered that
energy?  It would be possible, though probably prohibitively expensive, to
smelt and forge that steel in a closed heat cycle, using high temperature heat
exchangers, etc.  Perhaps when energy costs rise (due to environmental
factors), those companies will implement that technology and find that they can
produce their product cheaper and at higher quality than before.  I'm sure
there are lots of industries which are simply dumping energy as heat because
they designed their factories when energy was cheap.

--

Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca
From: ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith)
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: Re: What I've done to my house (conservation)
Date: 29 Jul 92 02:20:33 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA

In article <1992Jul28.192655.5402@kestrel.edu> king@reasoning.com (Dick King) writes:
>In article <1992Jul24.211442.7241@michael.apple.com> ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith) writes:
>>In article <Jym.24Jul1992.9am3@naughty-peahen.org> jym@remarque.berkeley.edu (Jym Dyer) writes:
>>
>>>> About 4 years ago we added a 65w Sodium Vapor yard light over
>>                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>=o= You can get a motion-detecting infrared thingy that will use
>>>fewer watts and only turn the 65w sucker on if there's somebody
>>
>>Notice that it is a Sodium Vapor light.  These start up VERY SLOWLY.
>>It wouldn't be lit by the time it went out again...
>
>Yes, but with the duty cycle so low you don't mind replacing the 65W sodium
>light with a 200W tungsteon.

NO WAY!  Maybe with a set of 2 27w CF bulbs from OSRAM like on my front
step, but tungston is not acceptable for yard lighting ...

-- 

E. Michael Smith  ems@apple.COM

'Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it.  Boldness has
 genius, power and magic in it.'  -  Goethe

I am not responsible nor is anyone else.  Everything is disclaimed.
Newsgroups: sci.energy,talk.environment
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: NEWS: Pioneer Project: Solar Hydrogn Power
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
Date: 25 Jul 92 16:44:25

It would be interesting to know if the Schatz Solar Hydrogen Project
as reached a higher level of engineering achievement and understanding
than Richard Stead achieved in his high school science fair project.

The key question about hydrogen is whether hydrogen pipelines are
a more economical way to transmit energy from the sunny parts of
the country than electric transmission systems.  The direct current
intertie between the Pacific Northwest and California, including
Southern California, transmits power almost as far as would be required
by a massive solar system.

Another question is how much energy storage or excess capacity would
be required to handle cloudy periods.  Are hydrogen tanks (gaseous or
liquid) better than pumped water storage or compressed air?

For cars, I think liquid hydrogen is the only way to achieve the
energy densities required.  The safety and insulation problems
are substantial but solvable according to people with experience
working with liquid hydrogen.
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
From: Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca (Nick Janow)
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: Re: ZERO Nuclear impact (was: Is car pooling for real? etc)
Date: 27 Jul 92 07:51:02 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world

Oops, wrong reply to this group.  Sorry.

--

Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca
From: ken@sugra.uucp (Kenneth Ng)
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: Re: Is nuclear energy "polluting"? (was Re: Is car pooling f
Date: 23 Jul 92 05:23:04 GMT
Organization: Private Computer, Totowa NJ

In article<13609@mindlink.bc.ca:, Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca (Nick Janow) writes:
: ken@sugra.uucp (Kenneth Ng) writes:
: > In the research I have done on the toxicity of nuclear waste, it seems that
: > the waste is less toxic than the ore it comes from in between 300 and 1200
:> years, depending on how you measure toxicity (its a lot more complicated than
: > you would think).
:That's true, but timescales are important in determining what is "environmental
: damage".  Do you consider the Chernoby area a "clean environment" because the
: radioactivity is temporary in geologic timescales?  PCB's do break down
: eventually, does that make them environmentally safe?

In Guyana they used Koolaide (mixed with potasium cynaide) to kill several
hundred people, should they therefore ban Koolaide?  I think not.  These
are two different subjects.  Unless of course you also believe that policemen
and murderers are both law enforcement officials because they both use guns.
The reference was to the toxicity hazard of nuclear waste.

: Uranium mine tailings will eventually become soil, with a lower radioactive
: content than if it hadn't been processed, but you'll have a lot of generations
: of humans for whom the tailings will be an environmental problem.

Hm, changing the subject again eh?  Whats the problem?  Can't win the
arguement so you change the focus again?  I spent several months looking
up the radiological hazards of nuclear waste to find the facts behind the
myths that nuclear waste remains hazardous for 24K, 100K, 1 million, 25
million, and 4 billion years ( I have no idea where the heck the opponents
dream up these numbers.  They sound like the Iraqi deaths suffered in the
gulf war.  Every so often add another zero or two.)  And because there
is a variance in how toxicity is measured, I quote both ends of the ranges
that I have found, 300 years and 1200 years.

By the way, tailings are just as radioactive as they were in the ground,
mankind added no radiation.

-- 
Kenneth Ng
Please reply to kdn5669@hertz.njit.edu for now.
"No problem, here's how you build it" -- R. Barclay, ST: TNG
Xref: sparky sci.energy:3796 sci.environment:10293
From: ken@sugra.uucp (Kenneth Ng)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,sci.environment
Subject: how much of spent fuel can be recycled
Date: 30 Jul 92 04:51:49 GMT
Organization: Private Computer, Totowa NJ

I found the article!  "The Disposal of Radioactive Wastes from Fission
Reactors", by Benard L. COhen, Scientific American, June 1977, page 21.
The before graphic has 96.7% U238 and 3.3% Uranium 235.  After 3 years
in the reactor, 94.3% uranium 238, 0.8% uranium 235, 0.89% plutonium
isotopes.  There are 3.5% fission products, and the remainder comprised
of various heavy isotopes.  Please note this apparently assumes once
through as opposed to steady state recycling.  And apparently these are
from LWR reactors as opposed to breeder reactors.  If you reycle only
the uranium, the mass of high level waste drops to less than 5% of
the original mass.  (Units are given in weight, not volume.)

Does anyone have more up to date data or data for continously recycled
uranium/plutonium in breeder reactors?

-- 
Kenneth Ng
Please reply to kdn5669@hertz.njit.edu for now.
Apple and AT&T lawsuits: Just say NO!
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: Re: Ceaucescuian Energy Policies.
From: hoyt@isus.UUCP (Hoyt A. Stearns jr.)
Date: 17 Jul 92 20:35:13 GMT
Organization: International Society of Unified Science

In article <BrG19z.Kur@fmsrl7.srl.ford.com> wreck@fmsrl7.srl.ford.com (R. Cage) writes:
>In article <1992Jul15.132230.19160@mcshub.dcss.mcmaster.ca> whitlock@dcss.mcmaster.ca (Jeremy Whitlock) writes:
>>Ontario Hydro has warned that they will soon be testing a province-wide supply
>>voltage reduction of 5%, to prepare for an "emergency" in the future which  
>>might require this ("emergency" = reliability margin disappearing).  We've had
>>rotating brownouts before, more frequently in recent years, but never -- that I
>>can recall -- a province-wide reduction.

I read a science fiction story years ago.  The premise was that with
brownouts and water pressure reductions, many people invested in
voltage regulators and pumps,  the net result of lowering voltage was
an increased power requirement because of IR losses.

-- 
Hoyt A. Stearns jr.|hoyt@          | International Society of Unified Science|
4131 E. Cannon Dr. |isus.tnet.com  | Advancing Dewey B. Larson's Reciprocal  |
Phoenix, AZ. 85028 |ncar!enuucp!   | System- a unified physical theory.      |
voice_602_996_1717 telesys!isus!hoyt The Universe in two postulates!_________|
From: dietz@mpi-sb.mpg.de (Paul Dietz)
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: Re: ZERO Nuclear impact (was: Is car poolin
Date: 23 Jul 92 14:49:27 GMT
Reply-To: dietz@mpi-sb.mpg.de

In article 19297@vexcel.com, dean@vexcel.com (dean alaska) writes:

> Studies of possible electricity savings for the U.S. based on studies
> of currently used versus currently available technology in the U.S. range from
> about 75% on the liberal side (from RMI) to 44% on the lower (from the EPRI).
> The 44% figure is the maximum _MTP_ figure which assumes full
> utilization of the best existing technology.  The low end MTP value is 24%.
> The difference between the two figures represents rising costs for
> installing these technologies.  The technologies for the 24% figure
> could be installed for cents per kwh, while realizing the 44% figure
> would get into 10's of cents per kwh.


Whoa.  That EPRI study concluded that power use could be reduced by up to
44% *from projected levels in (I think) 2020*.  The total amount of power
used would not go down 44%.  Under the 44% projection, it would be nearly
constant, under the 24% projection, it would be higher than today.

Note that the big energy savings in the US since the early 1970s have been
in the nonelectric segment of the economy.  Electricity use has grown steadily
since that time in the US.  Also, I've seen a claim that about 1/4(?) of the
non-electric energy savings was actually due to export of energy consumption
(i.e., we import more products that were made with energy intensive processes
in other countries).  Some countries with primarily low energy intensity industries
(like Norway(?)) have artificially low energy use per capita because of this
effect.

One effect of energy conservation that I am not sure has been addressed is
demand elasticity.  That is, energy conservation, if economical, makes it
cheaper to provide a service (lighting, say, or air conditioning).  This
increases the demand for that service.  Naively saying "if efficiency
doubles, energy use is cut in half" would overestimate the savings.  Example:
I find that I use exterior lights more now that I've put in fluorescent bulbs.

The other effect that increases demand is new applications.  Electric heat
is more controllable than gas heat, for example;  concentration of solutions
by freezing instead of gas-fired boiling can be less expensive.  Electric
vehicles, if they come into widespread use, would increase demand
considerably (and in a way that would favor the construction of baseload
plants, since the vehicles would, in effect, provide a large battery bank
to level diurnal demand fluctuation).

	Paul F. Dietz
	dietz@cs.rochester.edu