HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Subject: Re: Chrysler, Mobil & McCaw Cellular Choose NeXT
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1992 22:57:40 GMT

In article <1992Sep25.182013.14634@cs.yale.edu>  
nathan@laplace.biology.yale.edu (Nathan F. Janette) writes:
> In article <1992Sep25.134453.627@deepthought.uucp> Neil Greene  
> <deepthought!neil@ms.uky.edu> writes:
> 
> Well, if they use the same hardware config as at Phibro
> Energy (which spawned mc2, the software company that
> created the trading system), the traders will have
> NeXTcubes with ND boards.  Pricey!
> 

So they can watch TV in a window, or bemoan the lack of real-time  
compression like *real* NeXTheads? :-)

Gordon
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: m@crito.stanford.edu (M Carling)
Subject: Re: Chrysler order gives you some idea about NeXT
Reply-To: mcarling@NetForce.com (M Carling)
Organization: DSO, Stanford University
Distribution: na
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 92 21:32:53 GMT

In article <1992Sep25.181712.14578@cs.yale.edu>  
nathan@laplace.biology.yale.edu (Nathan F. Janette) writes:
> How many multi-hundred NeXT sales have you placed, M?
> How many multi-thousand sales?

I'm currently negotiating several, at least one of which is bigger than  
Chrysler Financials. The only reason why System Integrators can do this at  
all is because NeXT doesn't discount to direct buyers (academe excepted)  
steeply enough to keep us from competing. If they did, System Integrators  
wouldn't sell NeXTs. Nathan, what you have written makes it clear that you  
are not non-disclosed on NeXT's largest sales. You are speculating, and  
you happen to be dead wrong, despite the fact that your premise is  
logical.

M Carling
Director, Bay Area NeXT Group
General Manager, NetForce Inc.
--
"High tech is potent, precise, and in the end, unbeatable. The truth is,  
it reminds a lot of people of the way I pitch horseshoes. Would you  
believe some of the people? Would you believe our dog? Look, I want to  
give the high-five signal to high tech."
                          George Bush, 4/25/89
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 23:41:23 EDT
From: <MKK2@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Window behavior
 <1992Sep28.012916.1893@news2.cis.umn.edu>

I agree that there is an argument for a different behavior of windows.
If you are happy with NeXT's behavior, fine.  But from my experience on
other systems, I really miss being able to type in the partially exposed
region of a window in the back.

Making a window Key and bringing it to fron should be two separable operations.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: andrew@cubetech.com
Subject: Re: Make it Cheap
Organization: Cube Technologies, Inc.
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 06:49:58 GMT

In article <1992Oct4.210854.27320@RedBrick.COM> jfr@RedBrick.COM () writes:
>In article <1992Sep30.185558.17827@cs.yale.edu> nathan@laplace.biology.yale.edu writes:
>  As for the video stuff, the EISA bus requirement is if you
>  want color (16-24-32 bit, in fact).  I still contend that
>  NeXT could support 8-bit color (i.e., 2-bit RGB + 2 bit
>  alpha) for business apps (I realize it would be inadequate
>  for photorealistic stuff, but so what?) or 1 or 2-bit mono
>  with perfectly acceptable results using standard video
>  cards and monitors that exist today in 1024x768 rez.  The
>  limits that are being placed on NeXTSTEP 486 are, IMHO,
>  unrealistic.  The costs of a 1024x768 SVGA 486 setup with
>  16 meg of memory and a 200 meg hard drive is now about
>  $2000 street price.  This is pretty good if NeXT was just
>  available cheaply for such a system.  

It's not an issue of pixel fidelity, but one of graphics subsystem
throughput.  The NeXT imaging model requires extremely high
throughput.  The entire bitmap is generated by the CPU and written
straight to VRAM.  You need to be able to push a lot of bits through
very quickly or the whole system will drag in a big, big way.  You're
a developer - you know that drawing is usually the biggest resource
hog in an app _and_ has the most psychological impact on the apparent
performance of the app.  If the system just can't draw quickly,
*everything* seems slow.  NeXT can't do well on company name or
because Steve Jobs runs it, so they have to be way better and smarter
if they want even a chance.  Crippling NeXTSTEP or letting it run on
systems that are overwhealmed by it is a Bad Idea(*tm).  See also 030
Cube.

>  We need applications delivery vehicles that are cost effective.

Agreed.  Machines will be cheaper by the time NS486 arrives.  Lowering
the price would help to, but may not be entriely be necessary for
NeXT's current strategy.


andrew
-- 
andrew@cubetech.com     | "We shall not cease from exploration
Andrew Loewenstern      |  And the end of our exploring
Cube Technologies, Inc. |  Will be to arrive where we started
                        |  And know the place for the first time." -T.S. Eliot
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: steved@essex.com
Subject: Re: PR Blunder of the Millennium!
Reply-To: steved@essex.com
Organization: Essex Information Systems, Inc.
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 16:25:22 GMT

In article <1992Oct2.184027.15545@cs.yale.edu> nathan@laplace.biology.yale.edu  
(Nathan F. Janette) writes:

[stuff deleted]
> 
> Which perhaps was the blunder.  Just imagine if NeXT was that sole
> advertiser (perhaps with Intel, Moto, DG, Abobe, etc)...
> 
> --
> Nathan Janette		"I'm a NeXTstep man,


I don't think it woulda been too smart for NeXT (or anyone else) because I  
think IBM wasted a lot of money.  I scanned the issue before reading the  
comments here - I hadn't even noticed that IBM was the sole advertiser -  
besides, it was a pretty lame issue.  

Just my $.02 worth...

Steve
-- 
Steve Dieringer NeXTMail:  steved@essex.com
   or, if that doesn't work:
      steved%bullwinkle.uucp@wupost.wustl.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Need help over in comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: feijai@endor.byu.edu (Sean Luke)
Date: 6 Oct 92 12:06:04 -0700
Reply-To: sean@digaudio.byu.edu

John Coolidge, who has for a long time insisted on the net that NeXTs are  
inferior to Macs and now works for Apple, refuses to stop telling everyone  
at comp.sys.mac.advocacy that NeXTSTEP comes free with NeXTs.  I have  
posted, telling him that, with the exception of NS486 (of course) his  
assertation is false, but he keeps coming back insisting that he's seen  
the price sheet and talked to sales people and that he knows, for certain,  
that NeXTs don't come with NeXTSTEP.  His latest post in .mac.advocacy is:

	Subject: Re: Why Macs are better (and the others aren't) (long)
	Message-ID: <1992Oct5.213138.12576@times.aux.apple.com>
	From: coolidge@sirius.aux.apple.com (John L. Coolidge)

Can anyone help the NeXT-defenders at c.s.m.a out here?

--

Sean Luke
Brigham Young University                   MILK:  It Comes From Cows
sean@digaudio.byu.edu  
NeXTmail and nifty Mac stuff welcome
From: jmd@cube.handheld.com (Jim De Arras)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT RISC machine out in first half 93...!?
Date: 7 Oct 92 02:21:08 GMT
Organization: Hand Held Products, Inc.

In article <gnrzwbd@rpi.edu> gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu (Garance A. Drosehn)  
writes:
> andrew@cubetech.com writes:
> > jmd@cube.handheld.com (Jim De Arras) writes:
> > > A NeXT representative told me NeXTSTEP 3.0 would be faster than 2.1 on  
> > > identical hardware this past summer.  So take the 200 MIPS with a grain
> > > of salt!
> > 
> > They lied.  When it comes to technical issues, never belive anyone
> > from NeXT unless they work in building 2 at Redwood City
>   [etc]
> 
> While it's probably good advice to wait until we (users) have the machine  
> before depending on the MIP ratings, I'll note that every indication I got  
> from NeXT employees, or NeXT literature, is that 3.0 would be a little  
                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I've asked EVERY SINGLE person who made this claim to PLEASE copy/reference me  
to the source document that indicates such.  I REALLY want to know what and how  
I missed this vital information.  "Its around here somewhere, I can't recall  
exactly where, or what document it was, but I'm SURE I read it" is what I hear  
in response EVERY time.  I'm starting to suspect conspiracy! :-)

> slower than 2.1 on the same hardware.  I've even had some indication that it  
> would be noticably slower on configurations that were low on memory (8 meg  
> greyscale stations, for instance).
> 
> I don't talk to anyone in building 2 at Redwood City.
> 

Nor do I.  Nor should you have to, to get the 'truth'.
> --
> Garance Alistair Drosehn     =     gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu
> ITS Systems Programmer            (handles NeXT-type mail)
> Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute;           Troy NY    USA

Jim
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: stukas@mbolo.cc.nd.edu (Jim Stukas)
Subject: Re: US versus European prices. What the hell is going on?
Reply-To: stukas@mbolo.cc.nd.edu (Jim Stukas)
Organization: University of Notre Dame
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 21:47:25 GMT

In article <1992Sep29.105121.18238@cs.tu-berlin.de> ciardo@cs.tu-berlin.de  
(Gianfranco Ciardo) writes:
> > > I've been comparing US prices with prices
> > > in Holland and Germany.
> > > 
> > > The European prices are 30% higher.
> > > Why oh why?
> 
> ... passage deleted ...
> 
> Seriously, everything is, at the moment, extremely (30-100 %) more expensive
> in Europe than in the US, due to currency (dollar is low), and VAT (which
> is incredibly high in Europe, 20% in Germany, up to 38% in Italy).
> 
Sorry, but this is a bit backwards; at least the part about the dollar is.  A  
cheap dollar should make US goods cheap in Europe (or at least those countries  
whose currencies are strong vis-a-vis the dollar).  It should have no effect on  
goods produced in Europe (I don't therefore understand why EVERYTHING should be  
more expensive) or, for that matter, in Japan.
If a NeXT retails for $5000 and the dollar exchanges at 2 marks, then (taxes  
aside) a NeXT "should" cost DM 10000.  If the dollar falls to 1.5 DM, then a  
NeXT "should" cost DM 7500.  Or am I missing some subtlety in your logic????

Jim
p.s. I have not been following the currency markets too closely lately (I get  
too dizzy), so the above exchange rates are quoted for illustrative purposes  
only, and are not meant to be used for the basis of intricate exchange risk  
hedging strategies.

--
Jim Stukas                          (219) 239-8292
User Services                       Bitnet: jstukas@irishvma
Office of University Computing      internet: stukas@mbolo.cc.nd.edu
University of Notre Dame            NeXT mail cheerfully accepted
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: hlam@bnr.ca (Hayward Lam)
Subject: NeXT RISC machine out in first half 93...!?
Reply-To: hlam@bnr.ca (Hayward Lam)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 92 15:01:17 GMT


NeXT was in the Ottawa trade show that I went to 2 days ago.
A NeXT representative I talked to indicated that a 200 MIPS NeXT RISC machine
will be delivered in 2nd 93. It is going to be called the "brick" for sure.
The representative would not confirm which CPU is used. 
Anyways. Developers will have faster machines to develop engineering 
applications!!!


Hayward
email to hlam@bnr.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: paul@seer.demon.co.uk (Paul Lynch)
Subject: Re: NeXT Nitro?
Organization: Demon Internet Services.
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 12:00:10 GMT
Originator: paul@seer.demon.co.uk

In article <BvGFps.80t@atherton.com> dlw@atherton.com (Remo Williams)  
writes:
> So, here I was thinking I was one of the NeXT cognoscenti only to be  
humbled by  
> realising I had no clue what the following was:
> 
> >When running Speedometer 3.01 under Executor on a 25MHz NeXTstation  
(i.e.
> >their original slab, not the new 33MHz or the as yet announced  
"nitro"),
> 
> So what is the "nitro"? 
> 
> 1) Just a turbo with a faster clock?
> 2) A turbo with a faster clock and more expensive RAM?
> 3) A multiprocessor 040 station? Could be bitchin if so.
> 4) A 040 machine that is just as fast as a 50mhz 486DX?
> 5) The woebegon NRW? -Nah- 
> 
> A sign that Motorola has finally figured out how to fab faster 040  
chips? Just  
> what is it with Moto anyway--are they PURPOSEFULLY TRYING to get out of  
the CPU  
> business? I would like to see them succeed, yet they seem to have so  
many  
> problems getting chips working, yields up, and kicking up Mr. Clock  
speed.
> I'd have expected a 70-90 mhz 040 by now.
> 
> More to the point when will we see the Nitro?

I'd not heard it before, but Nitro is is keeping with the tacky sounding  
Turbo.  Good name.

NeXT ought to have something to announce at Comdex, just to make a break  
from tradition: a 50MHz 040 would seem to be the next best thing.  Are  
Motorola issuing it in sample quantities yet (i.e. big enough for NeXT  
production levels)?

Paul
-- 
Paul Lynch
P & L Systems                        (NeXTmail) paul@seer.demon.co.uk
Tel: (0494)671501                           paull@cix.compulink.co.uk
Fax: (0494)680228                            76711.451@compuserve.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu (Stefano Pagiola)
Subject: Re: NeXTStep :-) , Wind/X11 :-(   [was: In BYTE (NeXT) ]
Reply-To: spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu
Organization: DSO, Stanford University
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 17:34:22 GMT

Doug DeJulio writes
> >Fine. But what about letting the user override everything
> >and create an environment for themselves?
> 
> That's fine if the users never need support.
> 
> Let's say you have a lab at a university, and a bunch of 
> novices using NeXTstations with one consultant somewhere 
> who knows the NeXT.  A novice gets confused and phones the 
> consultant, saying "how do I do this?".  Does the consultant 
> say "well, that depends, if you have your blortlesnartleflag 
> preference set to pink, you command-alt-meta-click the 
> doohicky, but if..." or does the consultant say "You do this."?
> 

Yes please.. lets not fall to the depths of DOS ('did you set your  
config.sys to ...') or Windows ('Where's that goddamm .ini?')

--
-
Stefano Pagiola
Food Research Institute, Stanford University
spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu (NeXTMail encouraged)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: thomsen@spf.trw.com (Mark Thomsen)
Subject: Re: So much for Msoft's bluster <grin>
Organization: TRW Inc., Redondo Beach, CA
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 92 18:11:38 GMT

Jeff Bone writes
> Ooh!  Boy!  I feel the vapor dissipating as we speak! ;)  Not... :)
> Is *anybody*, *ANYBODY* suprised at this announcement?  

New system software being late? No, I doubt anyone is really suprised.  
Following the law that practically every deadline in shipping complex software  
products is exceeded, there should be no suprise.

NeXT was late and has generally been 3-6 months late with every shipping date
according to my historic calender. My buddy (often) recalls the PBS special  
where Steve told the troops that if they did not ship by summer of 1987 then  
NeXT failed. But they are now shipping and NT is still a 'coming attraction'.

The important point, imho, is that shipping product is sufficiently hard that  
something that is shipping has it all over something in development. If NeXT  
gets NS486 out before NT and they get volume (aggressive pricing, lots of  
reasonably priced configurations, great marketing, great partnerships with the  
PC players, sweet compatability with DOS/Windows applications and file formats)  
then they will have a substantial edge.

Last point (real tangential). I believe that Sun licenses DPS for Solaris  
because Postscript is attractive in the PC world. Most Unix-based work is not  
as print-imaging intensive as PC work (where it seems everything has to be  
printed attractively at 300 dpi). Sun is not too compatable with what has  
happened in the PC and Mac world. Solaris' lack of a unified imaging model that  
the PC print world understands has to be the motivator. Sun wants Solaris to be  
a 32-bit PC O/S in competition with DOS, Windows, NT, NeXTSTEP, OS/2, et.al.  
Sun needed to work on the print-imaging and I guess NeWS did not contribute the  
answer.

1993 is going to be an interesting year in the workstation-PC market collision.

Mark R. Thomsen
From: ddj+@cs.cmu.edu (Doug DeJulio)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXTStep :-) , Wind/X11 :-(   [was: In BYTE (NeXT) ]
Date: 30 Sep 92 16:35:51 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

In article <BvD781.7Hu@research.canon.oz.au> andy@research.canon.oz.au (Andy Newman) writes:
>kocks@jessica.stanford.edu (Peter Kocks) writes:
>>Oh, of course NeXT can make a lot of mistakes.  But, I would rather
>>have a few mistakes and have everything be consistent, than let every
>>programmer override everything and create an environment that is far
>>too complex to be understood quickly.
>
>Fine. But what about letting the user override everything and create
>an environment for themselves?

That's fine if the users never need support.

Let's say you have a lab at a university, and a bunch of novices using
NeXTstations with one consultant somewhere who knows the NeXT.  A
novice gets confused and phones the consultant, saying "how do I do
this?".  Does the consultant say "well, that depends, if you have your
blortlesnartleflag preference set to pink, you command-alt-meta-click
the doohicky, but if..." or does the consultant say "You do this."?

You *could* say, "well, users who change things deserve what they get
and are generally knowledgable, so let's not worry about supporting
them", but that won't get you any brownie points with developers...
-- 
Doug DeJulio
ddj+@cmu.edu
From: jpena@foo (Javier Pena)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Are there any NeXT user groups in Austin
Date: 1 Oct 92 16:05:33 GMT
Distribution: austin
Organization: Pencom Software

Here's the location of previous NeXT User group meeting. The meetings are  
every fourth tuesday of the month. I'm not sure if next metting will be  
held in the same location.

              September Austin NeXT User Group Meeting

Date:   Tuesday, September 22
Time:   7:00 PM
Place:	Old Quarry Library, Conference Room
	On Far West, 1/4 mile west of Mopac, next to HEB
Topic:  I will have disks with some fun and useful Apps, downloaded
        from one of the NeXT archive sites. Free to all who show up.
        As always, bring your questions, discussion topics, rumors,
        and innuendo.

For more information contact:
Bill Dodd
bill@mescal.cactus.org
(Work) (512) 838-7902
(Home) (512) 331-9932

--
   ____                      ___
    / __        __  __      /  / __ ----  __
   / /_/ / / / /_  /_/     /__/ /_ /\  / /_/
__/ / /  |/ / /_  / \     /    /_ /  \/ / /

"White Computers Can't Jump"
From: tlc@cx5.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Software for NRW
Keywords: software, NeXT RISC computers
Date: 6 Oct 92 07:37:46 GMT
Reply-To: tlc@cx5.com
Organization: CX5 (San Francisco)

Assuming that indeed NeXT is coming out with RISC machines in the near future:

Will the software I run now on an 040 machine run on the RISC machine?
From: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re:  NeXTstep Terminal
Date: 28 Sep 92 19:00:55 GMT
Reply-To: jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com

In article <dillon.0ob6@overload.Berkeley.CA.US>  
dillon@overload.Berkeley.CA.US (Matthew Dillon) writes:
>     You are missing a key marketting point here, try this one out:
> 
>    Hypothetical NeXTstep Terminal		 A Real NeXTstation
>    ------------------------------		 -------------------
>    "Cheap clone" -- $   0 (486 that you          $4000
> 			   already have)
>    NeXTstep 486     $1000
> 		   -------			-------
> 		    $1000			 $4000
> 
>     The above situation fits the bill for a large percentage of  
companies
>     which already use 486 machines and run Windows.  While I still  
think
>     $1000 is too much to charge for NS-486, I believe that if NeXT  
is able
>     to get people to purchase it for some of their already existing  
486
>     machines and fall in love with it, they (NeXT) will have their  
foot in
>     the proverbial door.
> 

The problem here is that it is not just $1000 since NeXTstep
won't run well on many of the 486s that are out there. First
of all, many of the 486's out there have 4M of memory on them,
and those with 8M are, by-and-large, swimming in memory for most
people.  What does NeXTStep-486 need?  16 Meg?

And that's only the first step.  Doesn't NeXTstep-486 also need
an EISA or MCA bus (most 486's out there still only use ISA 
buses) and a graphics accelerator board of some type?

--
Jim Mann            
Stratus Computer   jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com  
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu (Garance A. Drosehn)
Subject: Re: NeXT RISC machine out in first half 93...!?
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 02:14:10 GMT

andrew@cubetech.com writes:
> jmd@cube.handheld.com (Jim De Arras) writes:
> > A NeXT representative told me NeXTSTEP 3.0 would be faster than 2.1 on  
> > identical hardware this past summer.  So take the 200 MIPS with a grain
> > of salt!
> 
> They lied.  When it comes to technical issues, never belive anyone
> from NeXT unless they work in building 2 at Redwood City
  [etc]

While it's probably good advice to wait until we (users) have the machine  
before depending on the MIP ratings, I'll note that every indication I got  
from NeXT employees, or NeXT literature, is that 3.0 would be a little  
slower than 2.1 on the same hardware.  I've even had some indication that it  
would be noticably slower on configurations that were low on memory (8 meg  
greyscale stations, for instance).

I don't talk to anyone in building 2 at Redwood City.

--
Garance Alistair Drosehn     =     gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu
ITS Systems Programmer            (handles NeXT-type mail)
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute;           Troy NY    USA
From: alex@fiskville.mc.utexas.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Ranting about faults in NeXTstep ( was NeXTStep :-)
Date: 2 Oct 92 16:51:50 GMT
Article-I.D.: ut-emx.80932

It would appear that you have come upon what might be called a bug or,  
rather, a feature that was overlooked for implementation. Rather than  
ranting about it here (where it will do you very little good) why not  
email someone at NeXT and politely mention to them that you feel this is  
an important aspect of the operating system that was left out. I am sure  
that your comments... your positive feedback... will have some value to  
NeXT and your suggestions may be included in a future system revision.  
NeXT claims to be very serious about being a flexible environment and this  
feature sounds like it could be useful so perhaps they will listen  
(although I wouldn't call them idiots to their faces). 


Matthew Dillon writes
>  Somebody over there decided not only to force windows to the front when
>  someone makes them the key window, but also to simply NOT provide *ANY*
>  method to make it the key window without bringing it to the front. What
>  idiot decided that ?  I don't mind the *default* being to bring it to
>  the front, that makes sense, but to not even provide a method to
>  activate a window without bringing it to the front is stupid.
> 
>  I know about alt-click, it's totally backwards from what I, personally,
>  want to accomplish, and that is for NeXTSTEP to allow me to temporarily
>  make windows the 'key window' so I can type in them WITHOUT rearranging
>  them.
> 
>     Matthew Dillon		dillon@Overload.Berkeley.CA.US
>     1005 Apollo Way		uunet.uu.net!overload!dillon
>     Incline Village, NV. 89451	ham: KC6LVW (no mail drop)
>     USA 			Sandel-Avery Engineering (702)831-8000

--
***************************************
Alex Currier
Texas Union MicroCenter
University of Texas at Austin

NeXTmail Preferred
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy