From: cockburn@edieng.enet.dec.com (Craig Cockburn)
Subject: Re: Accent and Dialect, the politics there
Organization: Digital Equipment Co. Ltd., Reading, England
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 16:22:04 GMT


In article <1992Nov12.153329.6890@news.clarkson.edu>, walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,) writes...
>From article <23848.9211121140@thor.cf.ac.uk>, by spxsjm@thor.cf.ac.uk (Mr S J Morris 92):
>> In this longish discussion about "Scots is a separate language" vs.
>> "Scots is not a separate language", I don't yet recall seeing an example
>> of Scots which would let us come to some informed conclusion on the
>> topic. Could somebody who speaks Scots please translate a bit of prose
>> (this article, for example) into Scots, so we can see what it looks
>> like. If it's incomprehensible to a non-Scots speaker, then Scots is a
>> language - otherwise, it's not.
>> 
  I'm not sure if incomprehensibility is the key to what makes a language.
  If two people were using the same words and grammar, but had dramatically
  different accents and prounounciation, then they might be incomprehensible
  to each other. But this doesn't mean that they're speaking different
  languages.

  The word "ceilidh" is Gaelic in origin (from the verb "to visit"), and
  is in the Concise OED. Therefore, when speaking in English, it can
  be considered an English word. Likewise the word "Mod" is also in
  the concise OED, and is also Gaelic in origin. There is a society
  in Scotland called "An Comunn Gaidealach", and although this name
  translates into English as something like "The Highland Society",
  as it is a proper noun, even English speakers refer to the society
  as "An Comunn". Therefore the phrase:

  "An Comunn Gaidhealach Mod Ceilidh" 

  Whilst looking like Gaelic, is entirely made up of words in the OED, and
  proper nouns which are used by non-Gaelic speakers. As such, it is an
  English phrase. It certainly isn't a Gaelic phrase, because the Gaelic
  would be something like "Mo\d Ceilidh a' Chomuinn Ghaidhealaich".

  So, I suggest that what makes a language isn't it's vocabulary,
  but the way it is put together. ie. It's grammar, idioms, sayings,
  and concepts. 

> 
>Scots or Lallan (or the Doric) is probable only spoken to any great
>extent to-day in the Grampian region. Unfortunately, I would say that no
>one to-day speaks "pure" lallans, but, rather regular english with
>lallans words substituted for english words. However, when I was small

  I studied Scots, as part of English O-grade. We started doing "Sunset
  Song" and then switched to doing "Hamlet" after about a week. Most of the
  class gave up on the first chapter. I read the whole book twice and then
  bought "Cloud Howe" and "Grey Granite", the sequels. We also studied
  Scots in our History class, and as my father is nearly 70 and Scottish,
  he uses quite a lot of Scots words too. So I was quite familiar with
  about 90% of the words in your list.

  However, are you sure that simple word substitution isn't just the
  mark of a dialect, rather than a language?  Who can come up with 
  some good Scots grammar? 

  For those doubters of Scots being a language, I would suggest reading
  "Why Scots Matters", published by the Saltire Society, Edinburgh.

	Craig

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Craig Cockburn, Digital Equipment Co. Ltd, Reading, England.     Suas
  Internet: cockburn@edieng.enet.dec.com                           leis
  UUCP:..!decwrl!edieng.enet.dec.com!cockburn                      a'
                                                                   Gha\idhlig!
  Views here are my own, and are not necessarily those of Digital
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