From: jpsb@NeoSoft.com (Jim Shirreffs)
Subject: Re: Your own words, of course != bigot
Organization: NeoSoft Communications Services -- (713) 684-5900
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 06:50:59 GMT


Sh*t! The Lensman! I was hoping to avoid this.

>>The short version is: homosexual sex is a 
>>behavior which is *not* embraced by most Americans. It is outside of our
>>shared values. Continued erosion of [our] shared values will harm our society.
>>Therefore it should not be given the same status are heterosexual behavior. 

>This has been the essence of your argument in this forum, and it is not an
>uncommon point of view.  However, I find it a particularly scary one, and
>one that threatens the very core of our values as a country.

Not surprising since you scare the hell out of me too.

>The idea that the strength of our society is based on sharing as many of the
>same values as possible is contrary to my understanding of the principles
>this country was founded on.  The only values that it is important that we
>all share are those which allow us to enjoy the freedoms and benefits of the
>culturally diverse society (and world) that we are. 

Greg, come on, get real, god I hate you libertarians your worst then the 
damn communists. STOP rationalizing EVERYTHING. People expect others, their 
neighbors, friends and community leaders to share thier values. This is 
human nature! This is the way we are! It is the way we always have been, 
sure we adjust our values system as time passes. We learn that some of our 
inherited values just don't work anymore, so painfully we cast them aside. 
Maybe this process of change is taking place right before your eyes!
But we have every right to expect others in our society to share our values. 
And by enlarged most Americans *do* share a J/C morality. 

Why do you think the pilgrims came over here in the first place? To get away 
from people that didn't share their values. Dido for other early settlers. 

Do you think that society functions because of laws? It doesn't my friend, 
society functions on trust. I trust you to behave in a manner similar to 
mine. I trust you not to steal because we both *believe* stealing is wrong, not 
illegal, wrong. There is a BIG difference between illegal and wrong. Illegal 
is breaking a rule ("rules where made to be broken", right?).  Wrong is 
betraying our shared values. When you do something wrong you are ostracizing 
yourself from all those that trusted you.

>The most important core of those "shared values" are Life, Liberty and the
>Pursuit of Happiness.  Yet, there are those who find diversity (in the form
>of differences from their personal or religious ideals) to be some sort of
>personal threat.  They would rather see a "homogenized" society.  So, they
>attempt to have their personal "values" (read "morals") adopted as the
>"correct values."

Tell me greg what do you think about English, do you think it would be 
"good" if all Americans where able to speak English? Read and write 
English. You better say no Lensman or you're the biggest hypocrite posting
on the internet.

>One of the most scary examples of this is the way people insist on
>perpetuating myths about homosexuality.  There is no ethical justification
>for treating gays any differently than the rest of us, yet some people
>insist on doing so, and use the issue to try to fool people into thinking
>that this has some "value" to our society, when it is, in fact, a
>=curtailment= of Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.

What myths? How can you even use a word like "ethics", you have no concept
of right and wrong, as far as you are concerned everything is OK. Aren't 
you the one that said there was no reason to separate men and womens living
quarters in the military? Aren't you the one that said no one has a right 
to privacy in the military? Aren't you the one that tried to start the 
"Hey how the debate going" thread to feed your insatiable ego? Now just 
then my dialog with the gays and their friends is getting constructive
you jump in and call me "scary" and accuse me of "perpetuating myths about 
homosexuality". And I'm supposed to be unethical? Shit!

>The day that we, as a society, cease to value diversity over "uniformity"
>(i.e. "shared values") is the day that our society has lost it's most
>valuable quality.

Yea, Yea, Yea. More rhetorcal garbage. 

Why do you think there are so many murders, robberies, rapes, assaults, etc?
I'll tell you why Lensman, because a large part of our society no longer shares
our belief that human life is precious, because a large part of our society 
no longer respects private property, because a large part of our society no 
longer respects individuals rights. And that is just the "tip of the ice berg"
Lensman. How many cheat in school? How many steal from insurance companies?
How many people plagiarize others works?  

A much better judgement would be:

The day that we, as a society, cease to value our morality is the day 
that our society goes to hell.

>Greg Bradt aka ()The Lensman()

Greg you are a very bright fellow. Why don't you give up your libertarian
Utopian bullsh*t and start dealing with the real world. The real world is
very pragmatic my friend.

jim shirreffs 

i speak for myself and only myself

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