From: lauraf@classy.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Laura Floom)
Subject: Re: 20/20 and Spanking
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 22:20:20 GMT

In article <1992Nov4.193641.24848@adobe.com> riggle@adobe.com (Kathleen Riggle) writes:

[David Shackelford usual intolerant diatribe about how he wont tolerate 
dangerous behavior from his childdren]

[also deleted most of Kathies excellent reply]

[ok, so I am bias - Kathie makes sense, David doesnt]
>
>She hasn't tested the running in the street rule.  I always hold her
>hand when we are near a street, so it's not a problem.  When I'm
>dealing with getting into the car in a parking lot, I position her in
>front of me and tell her to be careful, there are cars.  She always
>says, "Don't want to get squished."  That was my husband's
>terminology.  He told her if she ran in the street, she might get
>squished by a car.  That seems to have worked.

I joined the net when Jeffrey was 6 months old. At the time there was a
spanking thread going on (surprise). I was very impressed with the arguments
against spanking (an an ocassional pro spanking argument). I was leaning 
towards not spanking, and the arguments convinced me. I do remember that
some of the anti-spanking parents were for spanking when the child does 
something extremely dangerous, like running into the street. That made sense
to me, and I thought that if Jeffrey ever did anything like that, I would
spank him.

HA! It was a waste. When Jeffrey was about 2.25 years old, I was picking him
up from my mothers house. My mom and I were talking on the front yard, and
Jeffrey was running around. He started to get too close to the street, so
we moved closer to the street. I warned him to stay back. He was clearly
trying to test limits that day, and kept going close to the street, and
waited until I told him to come back. Finally he did it, he ran into the 
street. I was close by, and grabbed him, by the time he was 2 feet out.
He started crying the minute I picked him up. He was angry. I spanked his
well diapered bottom twice, and it was not an impulse thing. I had decided
while he was testing me that if stepped into the street, I was going to
spank him (for those that are wondering - I knew I would get to him before he
got far, and we live on a quiet street, I did not allow him to endanger 
himself - he wanted to test a limit, and I decided to let him. I was hoping
that he wouldnt want to test the same limit in a less safe set of 
circumstances.) I then put him in his stroller and told him off. Then I took
him home and waited for him too cool off. When he was a bit more reasonable,
I told him if he ever came close to the street again, he wouldnt be allowed
to go out in the front yard with his Grandma again. That started him crying
again, cause he loved to go out and sit on the front step and watch me drive
off in the morning. Then I told him why he couldnt go out in the street. I
told him that I was so afraid that he would get hit by a car. A little time
earlier I had accidently run over Jeffrey's stroller with my car :-(, and was
able to remind him what damage I had done to the stroller with my car, and I
didnt want a similar accident with him. I told him that the stroller was easy
to repair, but not so people.

Anyway, he never did that again. Now he waits for me to hold his hand, and
even reminds me to look both ways and to wait for "no cars".

I dont think the spanking helped at all. I think yelling at him probably helped
how him the seriousness of the action (I dont yell that much), and the threat
to not allow him to go outside showed that there would be consequences if he
continued to do that. Explaining why I didnt want him the street helped, 
because it gave him a reason not to want to go into the street for him own
good. Spanking was useless. 

In David's post he said something about spanking a child who uses matches.
There was a thread on that once. The best suggestion, coming from several
people, was to call the local fire station. Many have programs to deal with 
this sort of problem. The parent asking for the advice, did end up doing this.
The fire department sent someone out to there house to talk to her son. It
made quite an impression, and there was no more problem.

That is what I most admire about the people who are anti-spanking, but still
determined to bring up their children to be well behaved. They seem to be able
to come up with such creative approaches to problems, each problem dealt with
in the best way for that problem, and not just some multi-purpose method of
dealing with all problems.

Some pro-spanking parents seem to have really thought out the issue and also
tend to deal with each problem seperately. Mainly they seem to use spanking
as a way to get a childs attention, and then once that has been dealt with,
they deal with the problem. I have just not be convinced that spanking is the
only, or even best way, to get the childs attention, or to let them know that
you dont approve of thier actions.

Laura Floom

>
>As for throwing food at the table, well that's one of those times when
>it's good to look at why she's doing it.  I don't really mind the
>food-throwing; it's just when it lands on me that bugs me!  We've
>realized, though, that Rachel really hates having anything on her tray
>that she doesn't want to eat.  So she throws it.  We've given her an
>option; hand the food to us.  Since we've started doing this, she
>rarely throws food anymore.  What good would a spanking have done in
>this case?  Her overwhelming desire is to have her tray cleared of
>undesirable food.  If we hit her, I'm sure she would still be throwing
>food, because we hadn't solved the basic problem.  I admit it's a
>little quirky to not want the food on her plate, but that's her
>option.
>
>Rachel isn't an easy child to manage.  Sometimes she drives me to
>tears and I'd like to throw her out the window.  But that is almost
>always when I am tired.  So, should I hit her because I'm out of
>control?  Thank heavens that I have a supportive husband that is
>willing to take over when I'm over the edge and I do the same for him.
>When Dave isn't around to take over, I give myself a timeout.
>
>David Albert's point is good; I also don't think he was talking about
>letting your child play with matches.  Children get into things
>because they are curious; I don't want to squelch that curiousity in
>my child.  I also don't want her killed, so I make a few rules.  And I
>think it's my responsiblity to keep those dangerous things out of her
>reach.  If she's getting into knives and matches, then my house isn't
>set up properly for a curious 2 year old and I'm at fault.
>
>In the cases where her defiance is over something harmless, I examine
>my rule.  A lot of times the rule is senseless and we get rid of it.
>
>Kathie
>
>
>
>-- 
>riggle@adobe.com