From: rnmg1200@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (A Lady and her Walrus)
Subject: Re: Marvel's untouchable corpses (was re: STARLIN SELLOUT?)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 05:00:13 GMT

Yeah, I know it's a cascade, but bear with me...

In article <1992Sep3.031400.11120@njitgw.njit.edu> bxp1628@hertz.njit.edu (Brian Perler) writes:
>In article <BtyM1F.7x7@news.cso.uiuc.edu> rnmg1200@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (A Lady and her Walrus) writes:
>>In article <1992Sep2.153824.23273@njitgw.njit.edu> bxp1628@hertz.njit.edu (Brian Perler) writes:
>>>In article <Btx664.4uw@news.cso.uiuc.edu> rnmg1200@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (A Lady and her Walrus) writes:
>>>>In article <5034@news.duke.edu> eja@soc14.acpub.duke.edu (Eric Akawie) writes:
>>>>>What other Marvel stiffs are untouchable?  I'd guess Uncle Ben, and um...
>>>>                                                      ^^^^^^^^^^
>>>>  [My list deleted for brevity]
>>>
>>>While I doubt that any of these people would come back, it is also 
>>>important to note that, with the exception of Mar-Vell, none of these
>>>people were major characters that couldn't be replaced (i.e., Harry
>>>Osborne is essentially the same as Norman now, and Hobgoblin seemed
>>>to be replacing him before).  Most important people don't stay dead.
>>
>>Well, considering the original example given was Uncle Ben, I figured these
>>people counted.  After all, the question was who wouldn't Marvel resurrect,
>>not what major characters wouldn't they resurrect.  I also disagree that
>>Harry is the same as Norman, but I won't get into that now.
>
>Hmmm.... I thought the original example was Bucky, who was definitely a
>major character (albeit in the pre-Marvel days, and later in the Invaders)

Here is where the problem lies.  I was referring to Uncle Ben, who is 
arguably as major a character as Bucky (he's had as many appearances).  I 
also think that if Bucky is a major character, then surely Norman Osborne is.
He had as much effect on Spidey as Bucky did on Cap.  Same for Gwen and
Captain Stacy.  And the Ancient One is not exactly minor from Dr. Strange's
point of view, ranking at least up there with Bucky.

>There tends to be a lesser tendency to bring back the more minor characters,
>so keeping them dead isn't as big as keeping a major character (such as
>Bucky or Mar-Vell) dead.  Of course, with the Parkers fiasco, I suppose
>no minor characters are safe (one appearance, in a flashback, probably
>puts them firmly in the "minor" category.)

So what constitutes a "minor" character?  Number of appearances, importance
to the overall story, what?  Seems that at least one of the people I listed
should fall under the category of major characters (other than Mar-Vell, 
whose rebirth is the source of much speculation and rumor).  I'm just curious
to figure out a good definition of "minor".  If it's not having much impact
on the story, then that rules out both Gwen and Captain Stacy, as well as
the Ancient One and Norman Osborne.  All of them are important in one way or
another to the story of the character with which they are associated.  I
think a much better example of a "minor" character would be, say, Thunderbolt
(from old issues of Power Man/Iron Fist, I think), whom I had never heard of
before seeing him in a copy of the OHOTMU.  He appeared only a few times, 
then bit the bullet.  (A new version appeared in a recent Hulk annual, I 
believe, but that's another matter.)

>Would saying that they're ATTEMPTING to make Harry similar to Norman
>be more appropriate?  True, Harry isn't truly replacing Norman, but they
>are trying to make him into essentially the same thing (although not an
>exact copy).

Right on the money.  The main difference between Harry and Norman, as far as
I'm concerned, is:  I'm *spooked* by Harry.  Norman didn't affect me, but
Harry actually gives me the willies.

>>>>There are probably others.  At one time I would've said the Swordsman and
>>>>Jean Grey, but now...
>>>
>>>The Swordsman is a replacement, not the original (I think).
>>
>>They haven't really said one way or the other to my knowledge.  I know he thinks
>>he's the original, whatever else he is.  
>
>As someone else said, he appears to be the real Swordsman's counterpart from
>another dimension.  It's in the recent Avengers issue, if you think you
>have the tolerance to sit through it.

No, not this millenia, thanks.  I merely thank whatever powers there be that it
isn't the original.

Speaking of the Swordsman, did anyone happen to notice the Mantis/Moondragon
Liefeld clone story in the recent Avengers (or was it FF?) annual?  Being
fond as I am of Kang (the only villain besides Doom who can pull off the
"villain-dies-only-to-return-to-menace-our-heroes-later" trick believably,
since there are or were zillions of him running around the multiverse), I
bought the annual (yeah, I'm weak, so sue me) and discovered this piece of
refuse in it.  Little more than an overglorified female wrestling match.
What's next, Marvel presents the GLOW girls?  But what I was wondering is:
where does this storyline come from?  Y'know, the bit about Mantis' son/child
being kidnapped?  I seem to recall her appearing in Silver Surfer for a while,
so it might be a follow-up (kinda oblique) from there.  Can anyone confirm
this?

>>>Of course, no one would ever be tacky enough to try to resurrect or
>>>replace the mighty Turner D. Century.  Trying that would be like trying
>>>to replace the Ringer!  (They did?)  Well, how about Firebrand (What?)
>>>Uh-oh, look's like Turner II is on his way....
>>
>>Great.  Another lame-o cheese-o-matic villain.  He'll probably wind up 
>>getting the Infinity Gauntlet. :)
>
>Turner D. Century with the Infinity Gauntlet?  I don't even want to think
>about how BAD that would be.  BTW, does anyone have any idea who came
>up with the esteemed Mr. Century?  Or, more importantly, why?  Does
>anyone really care?   Didn't think so.

The best I can recall, he first appeared in an issue of Spider-Woman.  Other
than that, I have no idea who came up with him, although hopefully they are
far, far away trying to hide their shame. :)

The Walrus

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