HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kolt@quads.uchicago.edu (Matt K/Gonzo)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Re: Pai Gow Poker
Summary: FLAME
Keywords: jacko, ass?
Date: 17 Apr 92 15:37:10 GMT
Reply-To: kolt@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations

In his 2nd article Jacko writes:
>In some article I write:
>>In a lovely article Jacko writes:
>>>The house edge on Pai Gow Poker is around 2% +/- 0.5%.
>>I'm glad you think so. I asked for math, as I recall...
>Don't hold your breath...nobody here really cares about Pai Gow.
1) Semantic Nitpicking. We are talking about PGP, not Pai Gow, which also
fascinates me, but I don't have the desire to learn the combinations.
2) I think you're wrong as I have been emailing with two people on this subject
concerning what we think are good ideas for the game. If you don't like the
thread, don't read it. 

>Face it:  they wouldn't take a commission on wins if the rules of the game
>inherently gave the house an advantage of over 2%. (let alone 5%)
I NEVER SAID THAT THERE WAS AN INHERENT ADVANTAGE OF 5%. This is ludicrous.
I am including the Vig, as it works into the formula each time you put a chip
onto the table, even if you don't happen to win this bet.


>>OK, so what this says is that your action at PGP is less "active" in the
>>eye of the casino. Makes sense, since many hands do not result in a decision.

>Pushes are irrelevant.  The casino advantage is what they win divided by
>the total action, including bets that were pushed.  I think maybe you're
>just misapplying the jargon.
What is this supposed to mean? Pushes are irrelevant; but they count in total
action...How can they be irrelevant if they count in total action.
I am NOT misapplying the jargon. I think you are. What I would like to know
is, each time I put two red chips in the circle at PGP, what is the expected
value, given the rules of the game? Is that such a hard question?

[explanation of how PGP is slow and hold %ages deleted]

[minor flame deleted]

It seems that I am being told to stop wasting bandwidth. Since I am a math.
weenie.wannabe, but haven't had any math beyond multivariable before I 
realized I wanted to do something easier like German, (:-) I am interested
in the math behind most of the games. For the dice ones, it is often easy to 
figure out, but PGP is weird and interesting. So, those of you I've been 
talking with, I will continue this until I come up with something. Maybe the
poker.gods will have some insight.
-- 
Matt Koltnow   B0 t-- w- c+ g+ k s+ e r- p     "That's the way
Email: kolt@midway.uchicago.edu                 Lady Luck dances.
Ntalk: kolt@ellis.uchicago.edu  (or @quads)     Roll the Bones." --N. Peart
Boycott the Imperial Palace.           10x odds on 25c craps at Union Plaza.
From: jack@bach.udel.edu (Jack Seltzer)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Big Winners/Big Losers
Date: 8 Apr 92 22:21:10 GMT
Organization: University of Delaware

Does this sound familar?....There you are playing pretty much
according to the count. As the count goes up, you increase your bets
and as it decreases so does your bet size. With the game going good you're 
up $200, maybe $300.  At the same time there's a player who is betting 
stacks of chips and winning.  You win $20; he wins $100.  You bet $40 and
he bets $200 and so on and so on.

I admit that this bugs me, although I never deviate from betting according to 
the count and my bankroll (well, pretty much anyway).  I think to myself
I know what I'm doing and from this guy's play, it is obvious his bets
are strictly a function of intuition and/or pressing up his wins.  I have 
seen this alot.  Recently, I played at the same table with a guy on three
successive days.  The first day he won $3500.00, with very eratic bets.
sometimes the table minimum; sometimes $100 and sometimes $200-$300.  The second
day he won about $1000.00.  It was quite obvious that while he knew 
basic strategy for the game, he did not count.  The third day he started 
off winning and very quickly moved up to making $100 bets until he started
to lose and lose heavily.  I estimate that he lost about $1500-$2000.  I 
remarked to another player that he was still ahead based on his last two 
days.  He laughed and said "I see that guy almos every time I play and I tell
you he is the biggest loser I've ever seen.  He loses most of the time and big."

Now I certainly didn't wish this player ill, but at the same time,
it made me feel so much better.
-- 
Jack Seltzer    jack@cheetah.acs.udel.edu
                jack@chopin.udel.edu
From: irwin@uvmark.uucp (Frank Irwin)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Re: Info wanted on LV Apr 16-20
Date: 13 Apr 92 15:51:11 GMT
Article-I.D.: uvmark.1992Apr13.155111.35045
Organization: Vmark Software, Inc.

In article <1992Apr11.140057.2120@stat.appstate.edu> grs05086@stat.appstate.edu writes:
>
>	I enjoy reading trip reports and if I play enough to make one, I will
>post my adventures.  Since someone of you ( Jacko, ect. ) are regulars at
>LV, I would be interested in stop and bye and saying hello if it is 
>convient.

A regular?  Jacko?  Hell, that boy *lives* there.  He just dials in to NJ
to read news.

>What is the consenus about the rooms at the Aladdin - Deal or No Deal.

I haven't stayed there in awhile, but I don't remember having any bad
experiences at the Aladdin.  (It's the toilets in the Stardust that
you have to watch out for.  :-)
-- 
 ============================================================================
 Frank Irwin                   |  "Alas, a lass is what I lack.
 Vmark Software, Inc.          |   Alack, I lack a lass."
 irwin%uvmark@merk.com         |     - Once Upon a Mattress.
From: daniel@quilty.Stanford.EDU (Daniel Weise)
Subject: Re: Bay Area (California) cardroom experience
Organization: Computer Systems Laboratory, Stanford University
Date: 9 Apr 92 08:18:50

In article <1992Apr8.221843.17292@ntg.com> slandrum@ntg.com (Stephen H. Landrum) writes:

   ...
   two tables going, a 3-6 Hold'Em, and a dealer's choice.  They advertise
   a 7-stud game (which is the reason that we went, one of my friends was
   looking for a 7-stud game), and claim that they usually have one going
   on Friday, but not this time.

Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that California
law only allowed card games where all of player's cards are dealt face
down.  Therefore there is no stud in California card rooms.
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: jpak@oakhill.sps.mot.com (James Pak)
Subject: Re: Sports betting
Reply-To: jpak@manute.sps.mot.com
Organization: Motorola Inc.  Austin, Tx.
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 22:10:15 GMT

In article <1992Apr7.210436.20308@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> jacko@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Jacko) writes:
>Can you guys explain how you convert a "power rating" type of system into
>an expected point spread?  As in, I assume you somehow rate the teams and
>if you give team A a power rating of 0.543 and team B is 0.493, what would 
>be the point spread?

Some power ratings do this.  Sagarin's rating loosely correlates to what his
system thinks the "spread" should be, I think.  In fact, Michael Roxborough
himself has a power rating of NFL teams that he says he uses as the "starting
point" for determining the spread on NFL games.  He publishes this in his
Friday column during football season.

>Hey Jim Pak, how's it goin'?  You bet the Final Four?
>                              Jacko.
>                              "Duke - 5  ----  CHA-CHING!"

Pretty good, Jacko.  I'm still here, trying to grow my bankroll again after a
piss-poor football season.  :-(  Haven't been to Vegas since January and didn't
follow college basketball too closely except for the tournament.  Looks like
you did all right in your last trip, with the Frontier BJ win and this.  :-)

No, I didn't bet the Final Four.  Would've swept the board (yeah, right!!) for
the three games, as I liked Duke, Michigan, and Duke.  Hold on, what was the
final spread on the Duke-Indiana game?  Was it 2.5 (ESPN early line)?  Maybe
I'd have lost that game if the line moved up.

On the other hand, I really sucked in the earlier rounds.  I remember watching
the Regional finals thinking UCLA would play Indiana tough and Duke would blow
Kentucky out of the water.  Yeah, riiiiiiight.  :-)

Jim
-- 
(Do not listen to the address on the header.  My correct email address is: )
jpak@manute.sps.mot.com  or  ...!cs.utexas.edu!oakhill!manute!jpak
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: whisnant@iastate.edu (Kerry L Whisnant)
Subject: Re: scratch tickets
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 15:52:04 GMT

In article <1992Apr6.124859.19515@ll.mit.edu> yasu@ll.mit.edu (Alan Yasutovich) writes:
>
>	Who knows how to see through the cover material on scratch
>	tickets?  I have one of the burger king ones, and the
>	first spot I scratched said, "suprise".
>

I'm not familiar with the Burger King game, but about 10 years ago
McDonalds had a scratch ticket game with ten spots: 2 of them had
matching prizes, some (I don't remember how many) were "you lose"
spots, and the rest were unmatched prizes. You had to uncover the pair
before hitting a loser spot. The prizes were mostly free food and
drink, but supposedly some small fraction were Atari computers.

I developed a technique that was good enough to win 20 in a row at one
point (only won food, though). First, go into a very dark room (I used
an inner bathroom with no windows and closed the door). Take a lamp
with a 60-Watt bulb that has an opaque, roughly conical-shaped shade.
Place a thick piece of cardboard with a small hole (one inch square
will do) over the open end of the shade so that the only light that
comes out is through the hole.  Now place the ticket over the hole.
The main light source in the room is now the light coming through the
ticket. I was able to barely make out the writing underneath the
scratch-off material. It wasn't easy, and sometimes I had to use a
little imagination, but I got rather good at it. It helps to know what
to look for, i.e., to know what each prize and loser spot looks like.
The lamp gets hot, too.

I don't know if this technique works with current scratch tickets
(the "technology" may have improved). Maybe using a low-powered
laser trained on the spots would give the same effect.

-- 
Kerry Whisnant                  High Energy Physics Group
whisnant@iastate.edu            Department of Physics and Astronomy
whisnant@alisuvax.bitnet        Iowa State University, Ames, IA 50011
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: kolt@quads.uchicago.edu (Matt K/Gonzo)
Subject: Re: 1-Deck Shuffler at Casino Royale?
Keywords: wow, bally's
Reply-To: kolt@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 17:58:55 GMT

In article <1992Apr13.164221.15968@aio.jsc.nasa.gov> hack@arabia.uucp (Edmund Hack) writes:
>The latest Las Vegas Advsior (4/92 - new and improved design) has a blurb 
>on a new mechanical shuffler in use at the Casino Royale in Las Vegas.  The
>machine shuffles one deck and places it in a shoe.  It is said to be in use
>at all of their 1-deck Blackjack games.  In addition, the article seems to
>imply that the casino deals out some % of the deck as opposed to one round
>only.  Anyone know for sure?
I played there. They do indeed deal two rounds of six at their tables. There
are 4 or 5 tables in the pit, all $1 and $2 minima. Very busy place. NN rules, 
however. Bally's also deals a SD game with the same conditions and rules, but
conveniently keep the minima at $10 and $25. Very nice.

>Finally, the article mentions that this could lead to 1 deck BJ in the east,
>Atlantic City, where hand-held games are prohibited.
Now this would be neat. What would hafta happen would be one of the casinos
doing less well would hafta introduce it, then all would need to to keep up.

Two notes:
1) I like the gizmo: it lets you play many many more hands per hour, and it's
fun to watch it shuffle. But it offers no break time; you're always on guard.
2) Beware! Don't get confused and accidently play on an auto shuffler that
shuffles the cards randomly together into a 6 deck machine!! Golden Nugget has
them. They are evil! You might as well be playing one of those BJ slot
machines: they have surrender, but pay even money on BJ. But I think that the
GN offers their weird annoying games so that they can take the dumb people's
money while offering rec.gamblers one of the best (rules and conditions: they
have excellent lighting) games in town.

Good luck to all,
Matt
-- 
Matt Koltnow   B0 t-- w- c+ g+ k s+ e r- p     "Payin' anything 
Email: kolt@midway.uchicago.edu                 To roll the dice
Ntalk: kolt@ellis.uchicago.edu  (or @quads)     Just one more time."--N. Schon 
It's a bad sign when security thrice your size monitors your roulette play.
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: darrenl@natinst.com (Darren Lilie)
Subject: Re: scratch tickets
Organization: National Instruments, Austin, TX
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 22:15:59 GMT

In article <1992Apr6.124859.19515@ll.mit.edu > yasu@ll.mit.edu (Alan Yasutovich) writes:
 >
 >	Who knows how to see through the cover material on scratch
 >	tickets?  I have one of the burger king ones, and the
 >	first spot I scratched said, "suprise".
 >-- 
 >	Alan Yasutovich

What I used to do is turn off all the lights in the garage and plug in a handheld spotlight into
the car's cig. lighter plug and place the spotlight underneath the ticket.

Darren
From: cantor@star.enet.dec.com (Dave Cantor)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Re: a few bj questions
Date: 7 Apr 92 16:00:39 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


In article <ku1mb8INNt2m@iris.usc.edu>, franzen@iris.usc.edu (Wolfgang Franzen) writes...
>Wayne Hathaway (wayne@ultra.com) makes the following observations:
> 
>> Anyway, I just wanted point out that the term "double down" is a bit
>> of a misnomer, in that you do *NOT* have to exactly double your bet.
>> In fact, you can bet any additional amount UP TO the size of the
>> original bet (subject to table limit restrictions).
> 
>Since I have never seen anyone attempt to ``double for less'', I can only
>take Wayne's word that this is allowed.  However, assuming this is allowed,
>it is clearly not always advantageous to do so.

You can also take my word for it that it is allowed.  It is allowed in every
casino I have ever played in (more than 30 of them).  

It is always more advantageous to double for the full amount than to double
for less, but there are times when it is more advantageous to double for
less than full amount than to simply hit without doubling.  Suppose you've
allowed yourself 40 units to gamble with, and you're down to 5 units,
and you make a 3-unit bet and get 8,3 against the dealer's 5.  I claim
it is advantageous to "double for less" with the 2 remaining units.  It
would be more advantageous to double for 3 units, but the last unit is
not available.  Do you agree?

--
 Dave C.                          cantor@star.enet.dec.com
  The views expressed herein are my own.  They are neither the opinion
  nor the responsibility of Digital Equipment Corporation, my employer.
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: slandrum@ntg.com (Stephen H. Landrum)
Subject: Re: Bay Area (California) cardroom experience
Organization: New Technologies Group, Inc.  Palo Alto CA
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 18:11:13 GMT

In article <JACOBS.92Apr9141813@cells.cs.utah.edu> jacobs@cs.utah.edu (Steven R Jacobs) writes:
>In article <DANIEL.92Apr9081850@quilty.Stanford.EDU> daniel@quilty.Stanford.EDU (Daniel Weise) writes:
>> Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that California
>> law only allowed card games where all of player's cards are dealt face
>> down.  Therefore there is no stud in California card rooms.
>
>Things change.  Stud is now legal.  "Horse Stud" is still illegal, but
>nobody cares because nobody can remember what it is.

"Horse Stud" is no longer illegal in CA.  It was decided that a law
against something that no-one could define was stupid, so it was
removed from the books a few months ago.

Stud games and Hold'Em both have upcards, but were made legal in CA a
while back.
-- 
Stephen H. Landrum                                        VOICE: (415) 813-8909
        Domain: slandrum@ntg.com           UUCP: ...netcomsv!ntg!slandrum
 USNAIL: New Technologies Group Inc. 2468 Embarcardero Way, Palo Alto CA 94303
From: greg@Ingres.COM (Greg)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: what one should'nt do ..
Date: 16 Apr 92 18:12:50 GMT
Organization: of dining philosophers


Hi all,

I'd like to know what to avoid doing that marks one as a counter.

I was splitting 10's at the Clarion in Reno one weeknight on the
midnight shift and I think I got marked as a (losing) counter..
(I was betting a 3-10 spread)

Are there some  net.guidelines for rookie counters  ??

And how much time does it take  for the dealers and pitbosses to
forget a face ??

Thanks,
Greg
From: jacobs@cs.utah.edu (Steven R Jacobs)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Re: a few bj questions
Date: 8 Apr 92 15:46:52 GMT
Article-I.D.: cells.JACOBS.92Apr8104652
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept
In-reply-to: eric@pencom.com's message of 7 Apr 92 22:42:22 GMT

In article <1992Apr7.224222.25111@pencom.com> eric@pencom.com writes:
> In article <1992Apr7.161201.6735@engage.pko.dec.com> cantor@star.enet.dec.com  
>(Dave Cantor) writes:
>> 
>> In article <ku1mb8INNt2m@iris.usc.edu>, franzen@iris.usc.edu (Wolfgang  
>  Franzen) writes...
>> > 
>> >Since I have never seen anyone attempt to ``double for less'', I can only
>> >take Wayne's word that this is allowed.  However, assuming this is allowed,
>> >it is clearly not always advantageous to do so.
>> 
>> You can also take my word for it that it is allowed.  It is allowed in every
>> casino I have ever played in (more than 30 of them).  
>
>  Suppose you are betting X dollars.
>
>  Let P be the probablity of winning when you take 1 card, and
>      K be the fraction of the bet you want to double down with.
>      (0 < K <= 1)
>
>  Let Q be the probability of winning when you take as many as you want.
>
>  Expected Earnings when you double is
>     (X + KX)(2P - 1)
>     (1 + K)X(2P - 1)

This assumes that the probability of losing is (1 - P), which is not
generally the case since a push is always a possibility when you draw
cards.

>  Expected Earnings when don't double is
>      X(2Q - 1)
>
>  So, you should double down whenever you can select a K such that
>     (1 + K)X(2P - 1) > X(2Q - 1)
>     (1 + K)(2P - 1) > 2Q - 1
>     P > ((2Q - 1) / (1 + K) + 1) / 2
>
>  Suppose K = 1
>     P > ((2Q - 1) / 2 + 1) / 2
>     P > (2Q + 1) / 4
>
>  You should only double your full amount when P > (2Q + 1) / 4

This formula is only correct if the house wins pushes.

> Now we get to the real question.
> Is there a value of K < 1 when it would be unprofitable
> to double down less than the full amount?  (when P <= (2Q + 1) / 4)
[munch]
>  Therefore, it never pays to double less than the full amount.

Wait, the question and the conclusion are not the same.  You asked
"is it ever unprofitable" and conclused "it is never profitable".

At any rate, the formulas don't apply (except possibly to Face-up
blackjack).
--
Steve Jacobs  ({bellcore,hplabs,uunet}!utah-cs!jacobs, jacobs@cs.utah.edu)
"Limit congressmen to two terms.  One in office.  One in jail."
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: jacobs@cs.utah.edu (Steven R Jacobs)
Subject: Re: Blackjack strategy
In-reply-to: cheese@next05wor.wam.umd.edu's message of Fri, 17 Apr 1992 16:26:56 GMT
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept
Date: 17 Apr 92 12:46:54

In article <1992Apr17.162656.9614@wam.umd.edu> cheese@next05wor.wam.umd.edu (Jason Steinhorn) writes:

> kolt@quads.uchicago.edu (Matt K/Gonzo) writes:
>> In article <1992Apr17.010500.5856@leland.Stanford.EDU>  
>rishi@leland.Stanford.EDU (Rishi Varma) writes:
>
>>>Just doing a survey...assuming you can't count worth shit...how many of  
>>>you would draw a card in the following situations:

[munch]

> Uhhh, Matt, what he asked was, assuming you did *NOT* know basic strategy.   

Uhhh, Jason, what he asked was, assuming you did *NOT* count cards.
A lot of people use basic strategy without knowing how to count.
--
Steve Jacobs  ({bellcore,hplabs,uunet}!utah-cs!jacobs, jacobs@cs.utah.edu)
"Limit congressmen to two terms.  One in office.  One in jail."
From: jacob@ocf.berkeley.edu (Jacob Jin)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Lost message
Date: 17 Apr 1992 08:56:34 GMT
Organization: U. C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility
NNTP-Posting-Host: lightning.berkeley.edu


Well, I typed a 137 line post but accidentally hit Ctrl-Z. I wasn't
even aware I had accidentally done that but it said Stopped so I must
have. Sigh. Anyway, I just wanted to say that I use the Uston APC and
it is pretty cool but my winnings don't quite show that yet. I used
the Revere 2-level count for a month in August and it won me $1300
(using $5-$30) spread. I'm now using a $25-$125 spread for single
deck and maybe $15-$175 spread for double deck.

Also: the person who asked about dealer cheating. I wonder that myself
but it's hard to use wins/losses as proof. On my computer blackjack
playing records it's noted that I lost $1700 in 200 hands. It can happen.
But the reverse as well: At the Nugget I went thru about 5 decks and
lost maybe 2 or 3 hands and ended up $1200 richer. Would have been more
except at that point I was being watched and couldn't spread as much as
I wanted. (To the person who posted about his LV trip: I was in LV at
the exact same time as you(Mar 29-Apr 4) and got comped at the Nugget and
Horseshoe. Got to eat California pizza every day for free.)

Does anyone actually use a multi-parameter count? That's what I want to
know.                



 
D
From: weinstoc@sei.cmu.edu (Chuck Weinstock)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Current Blackjack News Price Increase
Date: 7 Apr 92 13:45:00 GMT
Organization: The Software Engineering Institute


In case anyone was planning to order Wong's Current Blackjack News,
this would be the perfect time to do so.  The current price is $95 per
year, but on May 1 it goes to $145 per year.  Concurrent with the
change, Wong promises at least 12 issues a year, with additional
special issues when hot news breaks (such as the short-lived Maxim
100% penetration single deck of last fall.)



Chuck Weinstock				weinstock@sei.cmu.edu
Software Engineering Institute		(412) 268-7719
Carnegie Mellon University		(412) 268-5758 (Fax)
Pittsburgh, PA 15213
Newsgroups: rec.gambling