HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mtaranto@shearson.com (Mark Taranto)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: The White Man's Burden of Proof
Date: 5 Sep 92 04:03:25 GMT


Clayton Cramer asked why people mistake his views.  I responded that
people mistake his views because he uses language similar to those
who hold the views that he does not claim as his own.  I said that
this might not be right, but is happens.
 
Professor McCarthy mistook what I wrote, so I responded:
 
>> I'd like to believe that Cramer is using a standard definition of
>> these words, as opposed to stating them with insidious intent.
>> But the fact remains that if he continues to use the same language
>> as these fringe groups, people will assume that he is sympathetic
>> to their views.  It is a shame, but it is a reality.
 
Professor McCarthy responds with:
 
> I think it is Taranto who is obliged to avoid reading into Cramer's
> or anyone else's words meanings different from what he says.
 
I find this amusing -- since he is telling me to do something which I am
advocating myself.  We seem to be in agreement here.
 
> To hell with this "insidious intent".  Once that becomes an accepted
> consideration, the way is open to every kind of bullying.
 
If Professor McCarthy will reread what I wrote, he will see that I do
not believe that there IS insidious intent, and that I was just giving
my impression as to why Mr. Cramer is assumed to believe that which
he claims he does not.  So, once again we are in agreement.
 
> Mark Taranto can't bully Cramer and he can't bully me, but there
> are probably people who will be shy of posting what they want to
> say for fear Taranto will find an insidious intent.
 
I believe that this is the first time in my life I have ever been accused
of being a bully.  It is a shame that it has to be based on a simple
misreading of what I wrote.  Perhaps when Professor McCarthy realizes
that we are in agreement, he will once again claim that he did not read the
articles, does not know any of the players, and pleads the fifth amendment,
as he did the last time I showed him that he was wrong.
 
Are all of Stanford's professors this dotty?
 
Mark
 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: loosemore-sandra@CS.YALE.EDU (Sandra Loosemore)
Subject: unexpected quotes
Organization: staff hacker @ Yale Haskell project
Distribution: rec
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 16:51:07 GMT

One of the joys of reading is coming across good quotes in unexpected
places.  Consider this one:

  It [the government] was called upon to pay the bills due to the
  public expectation of better things when once the war was over.  This
  it was not able to do.  Though peace had been made with the continent,
  there remained so many matters of doubt and contention that large
  armies had to be maintained.  The expenses of the state went on, but
  the impoverished nation cried out against the heavy taxation laid to
  meet them; the revenues continually fell short of the expenditures,
  and the measures proposed by the ministers to remedy this evil excited
  vehement criticisms.  The unpopularity of the government, reacted upon
  and increased the weakness which was inherent in its cumbrous,
  many-headed form.  Hence, there resulted, from the debility of the
  head, an impotence which permeated all the links of the executive
  administration down to the lowest members.

No, this isn't describing the Bush administration.  It's Alfred Thayer
Mahan, writing in 1892 about conditions in France in 1799 that lead to
the downfall of the Directory.

-Sandra
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: feld@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Michael Feld)
Subject: Re: Chautauqua ? (Zen & the Art...)
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 00:20:17 GMT


The word names a town; the town played host to a special kind of
teaching: learning as a pleasure, the instruction provided largely, if
not entirely, via popular lectures.
Travelling medicine shows, except for the mind, except not travelling.

The shows continue (or: have been reconstituted) in the same old
stand, and draw many tourists.
-- 
Michael Feld                         | E-mail:  <feld@ccu.umanitoba.ca>
Dept. of Philosophy                  | FAX:     (204) 261-0021
University of Manitoba               | Voice:   (204) 474-9136
Winnipeg, MB, R3T 2M8, Canada
From: mtaranto@shearson.com (Mark Taranto)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: books to avoid
Date: 8 Sep 92 15:28:22 GMT



A friend and his wife, from Minnesota, were visiting this past weekend.
I picked up her book.  On the back, it told me that it was about a group
of women who came of age in a small town during the 60s, went on to have
the kind of careers that the kind of men their mothers told them to marry
had.  It promised film parties in Hollywood, the inside workings of the
big networks in New York, and stately homes in New England.
 
I opened it up and read the first paragraph, which was, indeed, the first
sentence -- nea, the first word.  It was:
 
        Starfuckers!
 
I stopped reading.  I think that any book that starts with something like
this should be put on my Must Avoid list.
 
Mark
From: heidi@wolf.net.com (Heidi Wolf)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Androgyny & The Arts
Date: 15 Sep 92 20:11:43 GMT
Organization: N.E.T., Redwood City, CA

In article <1992Sep11.183037.1349@u.washington.edu> twain@milton.u.washington.edu
(Barbara Hlavin) writes:
 [a long and well-written article deleted for brevity]

>[Book reference:  _Toward a Recognition of Androgyny_, Carolyn Heilbrun]
 
Another reference:  THE MERMAID AND THE MINOTAUR, by Dorothy Dinnerstein.
Chapter One, in particular, is a discussion of the "monstrosity" inherent 
in current society's definitions of Male and Female.  (Caveat:  this is a
*gross* simplification of the book's thesis; Dinnerstein doesn't treat 
the subject in nearly as black-and-white a manner as my synopsis does.)  
Among other interesting points, Dinnerstein notes that she picked "mermaid"
and "minotaur" for her metaphors precisely because they are creatures
which are not wholly human....

I'd also recommend Dorothy Sayers' essay, "The Human-Not-Quite-Human,"
in UNPOPULAR OPINIONS, which was published in the 1940s.  What I like
about Sayers is that she doesn't come down definitively on *any* of
the usual sides in the argument.  (I.e., she manages to rile people
along all segments of the continuum, which I gather she enjoyed.  :-) )

>Oh, one other thing... can someone identify for me the person who said, 
>"Someone who was exclusively male or exclusively female would be 
>a monster"?
 
Well, I thought I remembered something along those lines from Sayers'
GAUDY NIGHT, but I was mistaken.  The closest thing to it is Lord Peter's
comment to the members of the Senior Common Room at Shrewsbury College:

     "It's odd, when you come to think of it, that the expressions
     `manly' and `womanly' should be almost more offensive than
     their opposites.  One is tempted to believe that there may be 
     something indelicate about sex after all."

(...Come to think of it, I'd recommend GAUDY NIGHT on this whole topic
as well.)


Heidi Wolf
From: mattb@ctron.com (Matt Brown)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: unexpected quotes
Date: 15 Sep 92 16:04:37 GMT
Reply-To: mattb@olympus.ctron.com (Matt Brown)
Organization: Cabletron Systems INc.

(MICHAEL WISE) writes:
>Michael Wise
>O Captain! My Captain! (perhaps now that I've admitted to seeing "Dead
>Poets Society" some will recognise that quote)

You mean nobody recognized it?  Grand Funk Railroad, Closer to Home (Mark
Farmer), right?

Matt
You're telling me no one else looked at your net address?  They must be 
smoking leaves of grass around here.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: le01167@portal.lasc.lockheed.com (Ron Nadel (x2025))
Subject: Naked Lunch
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Lockheed Aeronautical Systems Co. - Rye Canyon
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 92 20:08:07 GMT

I just finished William Burrough's Naked Lunch.  It was a difficult read, 
and the first "beat" novel I've read.  I found it pretty monotonous in 
spite its nightmarish quality and sexual/violent goings on.  

The edition I have has two introductions by Burroughs, the first written 
around the time the book was published ('59), and the second dated 1991.
The first "deposition" seemed to plainly be an indictment against drug 
addictions (the "sickness") and capital punishment (of all things), but 
the second one repudiates the first one saying that the health problem he 
referred to in his first deposition was the national hysteria re drug use,
and the encroachment on personal freedoms by media and law enforcement.  
What is his background regarding this apparent change?

Once you get the hang of his writing and can discern the hallucinations of 
the addict protagonist from his brief moments of lucidity, the novel gets
somewhat repetitive.  I've heard this book described as a masterpiece, a
search for truth and a ridicule of violence, materialism, hero worship, and 
hypocrisy.  

I'm afraid the boat left the dock without me.  What are the impressions of
those of you who have read this novel (not just seen the movie)?

Ron {8^0
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: marcy@sqwest.wimsey.bc.ca (Marcy Thompson)
Subject: Re: Encyclopedia Brit.
Organization: SoftQuad Inc., Surrey, British Columbia, CANADA
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 18:45:25 GMT

In a recent rec.arts.books article, William R. Smith wrote:
>James P. H. Fuller writes:
>
>> Used encyclopedias.  I picked up an 11th edition of the
>> Britannica from an old-books place a couple of years ago for $150. 
>> To catch up on black holes and neutron stars no two-year-old
>> encyclopedia can possibly be as good as this month's _Scientific
>> American_ or the like.  On the other hand, for the humanities the
>> ... eighty? ninety? ... year old 11th is incomparably better than
>> any edition since.  
>> 
>I can't pass up an opportunity to tout the 11th edition of the Britannica.
>It was the first encyclopedia with all volumes published simultaneously,
>the first with an index, and if memory serves, the first with topics
>arranged aplhabetically.  It also had the goal, that must now seem quaint
>or presumptuous, to contain all the knowledge available at that time.
>It was published in 1911.

But for true fun, there's nothing better than the first edition. On the
bicentennial of the publication of the first edition, they issued a
facsimile edition (complete with fake waterstains on the pages, which
are an annoying affectation). I got one for my father and have enjoyed
it so much that I'm always on the lookout for one for myself. For a real
chuckle, read the entry about cats.

And in fact, it's a good way to gauge the state of knowledge in the
British Isles in the late 18th century. Fascinating stuff. Truly remarkable
entries on arithmetic and algebra, too.

My father also has a copy of the 11th edition, which is, as advertised
above, simply stunning as well.

Marcy

-- 

Marcy Thompson		
  SoftQuad (West)			
    marcy@sq.com
From: akao@.com (Adam Kao)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: A Reply to Professor McCarthy's query on films
Date: 15 Sep 92 20:40:52 GMT
Organization: Oracle Corporation, Redwood Shores, CA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

In article <193ue5INNhni@uniwa.uwa.edu.au> wojdylo@maths.uwa.oz.au (INFIDEL) writes:
	[stuff]

You underestimate the depth of your waste.

Adam
From: heath@athena.cs.uga.edu (Terrance Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Progress (Was : Re: The Literary Canon)
Date: 9 Sep 92 15:07:01 GMT
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens

In article <12176@optilink.UUCP> cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:
>In article <1992Sep4.140215.1437@athena.cs.uga.edu>, fuller@athena.cs.uga.edu (James P. H. Fuller) writes:
>> heath@athena.cs.uga.edu (Terrance Heath) writes:
># #	Allow me to offer a differenct scenario (one that has happened
># #before), in which this black man might be be pulled over by your
># #average city cop. (Perhaps after running a stop light or something.)
># #Now, the cops don't know anything about the man, except that he's
># #black. One thing leads to another, perhaps he resents being stopped
># #and resists being arrested. Now the cops think he's probably on drugs
># #or something. Judging from the looks of his clothes and his car (very
># #expensive, very nice), he might even be a drug dealer, or a drug lord.
># #Next thing you know, the man is on the ground, being beaten rather
># #severely by cops who are afraid he might be on PCP or something.
># #Well, its easy to see how things might go from there, and all from
># #something as simple as being pulled over by a cop.
># 
>#      Person A recounts a true story.  Person B counters by inventing
># a "scenario" and then gets all indignant about the story he made up.
># Heh heh heh.
>
>Unfortunately, Mr. Heath's "scenario" is a little too common a
>real-world event to call it "made up."
>


	I purposely based it on an actual event.  Reread the above
scenario, and then you have 3 guesses. The first two don't count.


-- 
"Black men loving black men is THE revolutionary act!"
			-Joseph Beam_
Terrance Heath 
heath@athena.cs.uga.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: grs@infonode.ingr.com (Gary Smith)
Subject: Re: Encyclopedia Brit.
Keywords: Shogun, Clavell, Japan 
Organization: Intergraph Corporation, Huntsville, AL.
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 17:59:34 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.162343.2369@nas.nasa.gov> wismith@amelia.nas.nasa.gov (William R. Smith) writes:

>When I was reading James Clavell's "Shogun" I looked up "Japan, Early
>European Contact" in the 11th.  There in two columns was a synopsis of
>the novel, with the names changed. 

This is largely due to the fact that _Shogun_ was woven around
historical facts, although the time was compressed for dramatic
effect. A much earlier (1940's or '50's) account was published
of the actual "adventures" of the first English "pilot" (last
name = Adams, if memory serves) entitled: "Daishi-san"
(spelling???)
From: akao@.com (Adam Kao)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: The White Man's Burden of Proof
Date: 15 Sep 92 20:12:19 GMT
Organization: Oracle Corporation, Redwood Shores, CA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

In article <9209141433.AA02988@cfdev1.shearson.com> mtaranto@shearson.com (Mark Taranto) writes:

>The New, Improved Infidel seems to have a better grip on usage.
 
In his recent posts he seems to have grasped brevity, as well.
Originality, alas, still eludes him.

Adam
From: fehr@ms.uky.edu (Jeff Davis)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Chautauqua ? (Zen & the Art...)
Date: 15 Sep 92 13:55:51 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: The Gizmonic Institute

mike.siemon writes:
>Jeff Davis writes:

     [ a discussion of Cleveland, slurs, and misperceptions deleted]
>
>> Charmingly located on Lake Erie, bracing in the winter,
>> mild in the summer, quite pretty in the fall. We (I expand) have
>> also abandoned last place in the American League East division.
>
>I recognize the phrase "bracing in the winter" -- I live in Chicago.
>I'll pass on that, thank you, for something moderated by an ocean.
>And I doubt that I would find the summers "mild."
>
>As to whether it is "the most culturally diverse city in the country,"
>I pray you not to take amiss my skeptical reservations.  I promise
>not to pronounce on the issue until such time (the which may God spare
>me) as I find myself in a position to judge.
>
>> The tendency to believe terrible things unquestioningly is one of the
>> curses of the modern age.
>
>I believe as little as I may, and that is surrounded by question marks.

A couple of points. It was re-reading a book about Chicago, that somber city, 
(_The Adventures of  Augie March_ by Saul Bellow) which led me to my revery 
on the Venice of the Cuyahoga. Cleveland (more precisely, Rocky River a modest 
suburb rumoured to be the inspiration for the comic "Funky Winkerbean") is the 
Great Good Place of my youth. 

My "culturally diverse" was mere hyperbole. There are Addidas in
the jungles of South America. Music video stations in Kinshassa. Whether
Cleveland has been spared since I last lived there anterior to the Kennedy
presidency is moot. Cleveland with its refineries and steel mills helped
mold the homogeneity we all live with long before I was born. Oppressive
newscasters all over the country intone its white washed Western Reserve 
accent. 

And yet...when we were there, my pasty white Catholic family was herded
away from other pasty white Catholic families by real estate agents who
didn't think we'd be happy in Italian neighborhoods, or Polish neighborhoods,
etc. A neighborhood for Anglo-Saxon white folk. What an ironic lark to
have that for a memory.  
-- 
Coach Jeff Davis <davis@keats.ca.uky.edu> Season: 0-3 Lifetime: 0-5 
I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask you all to repent from your sins.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: Fowles' `The Collector'
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 03:59:23 GMT

In article <009603AB.A08107A0@Msu.oscs.montana.edu> alisg@Msu.oscs.montana.edu writes:

>I liked _The Magus_ very much, and have read it at least twice in the fifteen
>or more years since the first time. It's interesting to compare it to Dickens'
>_Great Expectations_. 
>I didn't much care for _The French Lieutenant's Woman_, though I liked it
>rather better than the weird movie made from it, in which Meryl Streep went
>through her predictable emoting and accenting.

I'd have said THE FRENCH LIEUTENANT'S WOMAN evokes GREAT EXPECTATIONS more
than THE MAGUS does, although I can see how you'd find a connection
between the latter two books.


--Mike




-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact 
mnemonic@eff.org| of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, 
(617) 864-0665  | both are transformed."
EFF, Cambridge  |                           --Carl Jung 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: colten@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (marc.colten)
Subject: Re: books to avoid
Summary: The reverse is worse
Organization: AT&T
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 19:41:00 GMT

In article <25710@castle.ed.ac.uk>, egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson) writes:
> 
> ".....now a major motion picture....."
> 

The reverse is even worse - ".... from a screenplay by .... "


marc colten

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: spb0457@zeus.tamu.edu (SubGenius)
Subject: Re: books to avoid
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 19:32:00 GMT

Sandra Loosemore writes...
>mworley@mathcs.emory.edu (Meg Worley) writes:
>   [Avoid books described as "wickedly funny", etc., on the cover.]
>   What other phrases
>   get up your nose or otherwise serve to prevent you, like Socrates'
>   divine sign, from making sorry mistakes?
> 
>I view anything described as a "saga" with extreme suspicion.  A
>"passionate saga" is even worse.  Also, on the subject of judging
>books by their covers, I tend to avoid books with covers that depict
>alien spacecraft or a woman falling out of her dress.
>-Sandra

+----------------------------------SubG-------------------------------------+
Other words/phrases to avoid:

Wacky
Zany
Madcap
Spine-tingling
Gut-Wrenching
Earth-shattering
Harold Robbins

..among others.




Mr. Cheaplaff appears
by kind permission of,
Yours etc.,





SubGenius
From: alison@wsrcc.com (Alison Chaiken)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Marriage as Hell: The Wide Sargasso Sea (teensy SPOILER)
Date: 9 Sep 92 01:18:50 GMT
Organization: W S Rupprecht Computer Consulting, Fremont CA

I haven't read "The Yellow Wallpaper," but the plot summary given for
it by several posters reminds me of _The Wide Sargasso Sea_ by Jean
Rhys.  TWSS is not strictly speaking a horror novel, but its tone is
rather nightmarish.  Most of the story is a prequel to _Jane Eyre_,
and the narrator is "the mad wife in the attic!"  The book begins with
the mad wife's childhood and proceeds to (Caution: nano-SPOILER follows)


her demise in the fire that is the dramatic climax of _Jane Eyre_.
The feminist and confinement themes sound similar to TYW.    When was
TYW written?    I believe that TWSS was written in the late '30's.

I wish that I could say that anyone who enjoyed _Jane Eyre_ would
enjoy TWSS, but actually they're extremely different in tone and
style.  Probably anyone who enjoyed _Jane Eyre_ as a child and now
prefers William Styron or Marianne Wiggins (sp?) would like it.

As a side note, I was first led to TWSS because Carlos Fuentes
recommended it.  He is the well-known Mexican/American novelist and
critic (_Death of Artemio Cruz_), and he once taught a course I took
in college.  He claimed TWSS as a major influence on his work.  I read
it as much out of curiosity as real interest, but I much enjoyed it.
Jean Rhys seems to have been something of a one-hit wonder, like
Margaret Mitchell; her other books are not nearly as good.

-- 
Alison Chaiken 				alison@wsrcc.com
(510) 422-7129 [daytime] 		or chaiken@cmsgee.llnl.gov
(510) 422-7300 [FAX]
Live fast, die young, leave a long publication list.
Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:16102 misc.int-property:970
From: tjc50@juts.ccc.amdahl.com (Terry Carroll)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,misc.int-property
Subject: Re: moral right and copyright
Date: 12 Sep 92 01:08:55 GMT
Reply-To: tjc50@juts.ccc.amdahl.com (Terry Carroll)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation

In article <18pi5cINNq30@agate.berkeley.edu>, adam@soda.berkeley.edu (Adam J 
Richter) writes:
> 	Elsewhere in their book, Patterson and Lindberg mention that
> the Berne Convention is the oldest international copyright convention,
> dating back to 1887.  According to the book, the United States joined
> the Berne Convention in 1988.  This gives me hope that perhaps some
> other administration will decide that we should leave the Berne
> Convention and adopt (return to?) more modern copyright laws.

That's kind of unfair.  The Berne Convention does indeed "go back to" 1887, 
but the version of Berne to which the US is a signatory is the 1971 Paris 
Text.  Berne _is_ the modern copyright law, expressly forbidding a member 
state from requiring some of the older copyright constructs, such as 
copyright notice and registration.

Terry Carroll - tjc50@juts.ccc.amdahl.com - 408/992-2152
The opinions presented above are not necessarily those of a sound mind.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: levine@symcom.math.uiuc.edu (Lenore Levine)
Subject: Re: ... on Miss Manners (cough)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 14:37:55 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.160540@gorgo.gsfc.nasa.gov> sullivan@gorgo.gsfc.nasa.gov (Dan sullivan) writes:
>'Miss Manners' is an arrogant (with no justification) nasty bitch. 
>When people ask honest questions of her, she replies with sarcasm. 

How kind of you to take an interest!

Lenore Levine