From: dkhaikin@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Dmitry Khaikin)
Subject: Re: Consultations with a Rabbi
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 03:01:04 GMT

In article <6595@pdxgate.UUCP> a0cb@odin.cc.pdx.edu (Chris Bertholf) writes:
>khaikin@boa.cis.ohio-state.edu (dmitry khaikin) writes:
>
>>This is actually a very good test for everybody to see just how strong
>>of a Jew they are. I am sure (hope not) that somebody out there is going
>>to reply to him and ask for that ... booklet. 
>
>Sounds like you might be afraid of what that ... booklet might have to say!

Good guess. I am afraid of what people that don't know a danm thing
about Judaism and are Jews going to read in that booklet and going to do
afterwards. Personally, I would not read it, just because I don't need
it. I am afraid of that booklet, but I am certainly not afraid of what
that booklet has to say. You don't have to be a genies to see that it
is just a banch of xtian tricks.

>
>>So, my fellow Jews, it is
>>the self-check time! If you are even thinking that this guy might be
>>right and that you better check it out, of course, not for the
>>converting reasons, but just out of curiosity, then you are in trouble!
>
>I'd have to agree here.  Having an open mind and engaging in an 
>investigation into this for purely educational purposes definitely
>means you are losing your grip on your Judaism. NOT!

What do you want me to say? "Yeah, go ahead, it is just for educational
reasons!" And you know what, I believe you. You would probaly do it for
the educational reasons. But why would you want to know about this
stuff? What kind of education do you expect to get from those booklets.
I guess, this is that R. vs. Orth. thing again. Every time I get into
this it is always strange to me how people can't understand such a
simple thing as this. You are so into this one moment that you can't see
beyond all of this. Then we will argue with you on something else about
R. and Orth. One living a goyish life and saying that he is living a
Jewish life is just funny and sad. 
You can call this whatever yo want, but reading that matirial is not
educatining you, but making you more like a goy. You move your norm down
by 1/1000000 and think it is just a very small amount that can be
considered nothing. Well, nothing + nothing is something more then
before isn't it? I know you disagree. Do what yo want to do. I am no
judge for you. You want to look like all other goyim? Fine, it is your
decision, whatever you might call or explain what you are doing. I know
you disagree with this too. There is nothing to argue about. You don't
want to do it and that is it. It is probably hard for you see what it
really is, but it is twice as hard for me to explain to you why it is
wrong especially when you know really want to hear that.
I don't know what else to say. We have been through this before. Nobody
seemed to prove me wrong, but everybody just droped it in a while. Of
course, no will - nothing.
I'd actually prefer that you don't reply to this, since it will just
start it all over again. And there is no point for us to argue about
something you just don't want ot do. 
And about that boolet... No, you won't lose your Judaism because of
reading that thing. You would just make your first step to losing it.
Will you stop after it or will you go on down? That is a very difficult
question. I can't answer that. Trying out something new is not being
completely satisfied with what you have right now.


>
>>Yes, that's exactly how it starts. Just curious, you say. Well, the only
>>reason you can be curios of what that guy really has to say is because
>>you don't have the feel (I am not talking about the knowledge anymore
>>here) for Judaism.
>
>How what starts?  If there is nothing true about what he has to say, then
>what could it start.  You sound like you are searching yourself here, and
>trying to gain concensus by getting others to join you in your less than
>open minded (and, it sounds like somewhat strained) ability to explore
>your beliefs.

Being open minded, my friend, does not mean putting everything in your
head including garbage.

>
>>No matter how much you know, do not listen to what he
>>says! Although, he says pretty stupid things that are supposed to be
>>obvious to everybody, there of course is somebody who knows alittle bit
>>more then yo do.
>           ^^you
>
>Yes. Close your ears and eyes.  Don't listen. Don't think about how
>it may be wrong (or right) and dismiss it completely.  It doesn't
>have the slightest meaning in your lives, so ignore it instead of
>understanding it, and being better preparred to deal with similar
>arguments with thoughtful, reasoned responses.

Well, you pretty much explained it all, but you did it like it is being
closed minded again. If you know that it is not true, then you don't
have to read it again to prove it wrong. On the other hand, if you are
not sure that it is wrong then you would probaly want to read it. Of
course, it does not have to be this exact way. You don't understand and
you not even trying. '... ignore it instead of understanding it'? Yes,
of course! Why in the world would you want to 'understand it'? You don't
need it, so, why bother? There is somthing more to it, is not there?

>
>>So, what do yo do then? You go and ask a Rabbi about
>>the things that you don't understand. Don't just leave it hanging in the
>>air. Ask! BUT Do not accept it first! Even if you don't know or not
>>satisfied with the answer of a Rabbi, do not accept what he says!
>
>Now this makes some sense.  Consult with a Rabbi.  Share the information
>you have investigated, and try to come to an understanding on your own,
>with the learned help of a Rabbi.  I'm not sure how this good suggestion
>got in here with all of the stupid ones, but it did!
>

I am sorry I am not as smart as you are, but the information I was
talking about is the info that you forcefully get. Like in case of those
missionaries. You read it, but you did not really expect to read it
here, and besides you read it and argue it because you don't want other
Jews that are not that familiar with Judaism to fall for it. 
Thanks for the evaluation of my IQ again!!!

>>In the worst case you know one thing: You are Jewish and that stuff is not
>>for you! I know that this is not (not always) a Reform point of view, but
>>please take it from Orthodox this time. In any case make sure you don't
>>accept what he says. He is trained to get people that don't really know
>>about the Bible and don't have that Jewish feel. Don't let him destroy us! 
>
>He is not trying to destroy us!  He has a different viewpoint, and it
>bears consideration (especially if you are comfortable with what you
>know and believe).

Sure he is not. And if the information that he gives us destroys us, it
is Ok, since it is not his intention, right? No, I don't think so. Don't
make him look like an brainwashed angel. He is brainwashed allright, but
he is no angel! And don't tell me that I am as brainwashed as he is
because I am Orthodox, that will just show that you don't understand
anything at all.(Although, a lot of things already did).

  Why is it wrong for a set of people that are Jewish
>(culturally) to wish to maintain the cultural AND religious aspects of
>Judaism to also believe that the messiah was JC.

Listen, do you have any limits at all? "What is wrong with believing in
j.c.?" Oh, sure nothing wrong with that. Are by any chance a xtian? If
you are not then it is another proof that you are living a goyish life.
You are talking on the level of US Constitution, not on the level of
Judaism. You are talking about freedom of religions, not about what
Jusaism considers right or wrong. All of those things are not Judaism,
although, a lot of them have alot taken from Judaism, but not all. So,
Constitutionally, there is nothing wrong in believing in j.c., but not
Judaicaly. Don't mix the two!

 Apparently one thing
>that doesn't seem to be understood by many posters here is that good
>Christians are fairly well in touch with Judaism; they have to be to
>really understand their faith.  I personally have no problem with other
>Jews that do not share all of my beliefs.  I also do not tend to
>tell them that they are not Jewish just because I disagree with them
>on what Judaism is.  It is more than religion! Or have you forgotten
>that?
>

You probably think that you showed to everybody just how free and open
minded you are. To me all you showed is how uneducated and out of touch
with Judaism you are. But again, this is not the only paragraph where it
is seen.

>It appears that many posters have either forgotten or deny that
>Christianity is based on Judaism, was started by Jews, and has
>more in common with Judaism than it has in opposition to Judaism.

Oh, please. Now, you discredited yourself to the end! A religion that
some people have agument about if it is an idol worship or not and that
has so much that contradicts that the base believe of Judaism has more
in common then different? You really could use a yeshiva! For like two
years at least!

>
>Just because some Christian philosophers (Thomas Aquinas, etc.)
>suggest that it superceeds Judaism does not mean it is so.
>Judaism, and an understanding of Judaism, is essential to the
>Christian faith, as is evidenced by the 'official view' published
>in Nostra Atae (the doctrine of the papacy).  Before you go 
>condemning those that wish to understand and maintain the
>cultural and religious underpinnings of Christianity, try to
>look a bit further than your fears.  Realize that they have
>just as much of a right to preserve their cultural and religious
>backgrounds, especially those portions which are not in conflict
>with any beliefs that you do not hold.

You are really funny, you know that? Let me spell it out for you. xnians
don't have any 'right' in Judaism. Goyim do, xtians don't. xtians just
happen to be goyim and Judaism can care less about what kind of right they
have preserving their religion. Again, constitutionally, they do, but
there is no such a thing as Judaism preserving xtian believes.
I respect people. If they happen to be xtians I respect them as people,
not xtians. People that can hold any belief they want, but I don't have
to accept them. 
>
>>Do not think it is just a joke here. It is too close to home. I
>>personally know a girl who got cought on that kind of crap! Don't make
>>the same mistake!
>
>She must not have been very sure of herself or her religion. Or she found
>a convincing argument. I wonder which it was... And, unlike you, I intend
>to investigate it, and make my own decision, based on best evidence
>insetad of fear, paranoia, and ignorance.

In fact, when I asked her if she would talk to a Rabbi, she said yes and
told me that she hopes that the Rabbi converts too. I asked her if she
was sirious and she said yes, of course, Rabbi was as Jewish as she was
and could understand the same thing she did. 

>
>>Another question is how to get rid of this walking disgrace to Judaism?
>
>And yet another question is how to get rid of prejudiced, short-sighted,
>close-minded, brainwashed, and intollerant people such as you!  You are
>the true disgrace to Judaism.  I'm glad I don't have to introduce you
>to my non-Jewish friends as representative of Judaism and Jews.
>

If you get rid of peope like me, you will not ever know what Judaism is
nor was. Well, you don't know that anyway...

>>Well, first thing that comes to my mind is to put him in kill files, but
>>now I don't think it is a good idea, since (so called) weak Jews will
>>not do that and as a result, he will say anything he wants here.
>
>And, he has a right to say anything he wants here, because your definition
>of Judaism is not the only one, and it may not even be the correct one!
>

Why don't you go study instead of writing to this newsgroup? Or do you
consider it as a mission to get rid of people like me? You know, the
ones that still do know something about Judaism...
You probably think that you make me very angry. No, in fact, you make me
very sad.

>I can't believe the intollerance I witness here daily.  Predjudice is a
>learned behaviour.  People who have only this network as a resource for
>communicating with other Jews could learn it very well from many of you.
>Christians that read your prejudical drivel could easily get the idea
>that Jews hate Christians and would do anything to silence them.
>Fortunately, I know that is not so, but your attitude really disgusts me.
>They could also get the non-mistaken idea that most of you call anyone who
>does not agree with your beliefs and convictions regarding Judaism
>anti-Semitic, and Jews who disagree with you "non-Jews".  Get a grip!!!!

Get a Jewish education first, then I will argue on this rediculous
statements. (I don't think that would be necassary though).

CHappy Chanukkah,
Dima




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  dkhaikin@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu  ( Dmitry Khaikin, Columbus Ohio )
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