HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Sunday, 13 Dec 1992 02:10:37 GMT
From: <U53415@uicvm.uic.edu> (Mitch Pollack)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: Legalized Discrimination in Quebec
 <Bz2BxB.45s@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca> <1992Dec11.161153.19042@cerberus.ulaval.ca>

In article <1992Dec11.161153.19042@cerberus.ulaval.ca>,
duquet@astro.phy.ulaval.ca (Jean-Remi Duquet) says:
>
>In article <Bz2BxB.45s@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca> tjdoran@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca
>(DORAN TJ - BIOLOGY) writes:
>>>[stuff deleted]
>>Only in Quebec is the
>>right to choose among existing facilities denied to some people.
>                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

And Jean-Remi Duquet replies (some stuff deleted for readability):
>
>1) If I refer to a recent posting, being educated in french is not easy at
>least in Manitoba, and there is no reason to suppose it's largely available
>west to that province.
>
>2) If the service is not available/insufficient, I hardly see how one could
>"choose the language in which ...", even if the province generously
>recognises everyone this "right".
>
>3) Hence, if the premices are right of course, Anglo-quebecers are not denied
>any right granted to any other linguistic minority in the country as far as
>education is concerned.
>
>4) Now, granted that the english community in Quebec have access, as a whole,
>to a better education system in their own language, the government has the
>right to fix the limits of the population who can use this service.
>It certainly is frustrating for those who cannot use these facilities, but
>don't call this immoral or "racist". (may I remind you that the first people
>affected by this measure are french-speaking quebecers who are denied the
>right
>to send their children to english school.)
>
But the central issue doesn't seem to be whether or not every resident
of Canada has a right to an education in his or her own language.  As
a US citizen, if I emigrated to Canada and chose to live in a town
without an English-language school, I'd have no reason to expect the
government to build one for me.  The point is whether or not immigrants
should have the same freedom as native-born Canadians to choose among
facilities that already exist.  If I emigrated and chose to live in, say,
Westmount, I would not have the same right as my Canadian-born neighbor
to send my children to a nearby English-language public school, for no
other reason than that my neighbor learned English in Montreal and I learned
it in New York.  That smacks of discrimination.

Mitch Pollack
Dept. of Mathematics, Statistics, and Comp. Science
University of Illinois at Chicago
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
From: greenway@dg.UUCP (RSG)
Subject: Looking for information on Nova Scotia
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 16:31:54 GMT
Organization: Data General Corporation, Westboro, MA


I'm interested in communicating with someone familiar with the Glace Bay
area of Nova Scotia.  I may be acquiring property there, and I'm curious about 
the area.  Please email.  Thanks.  

Bob Greenway
greenway@esparc30.webo.dg.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: Legalized Discrimination in Quebec
From: rcf@netlink.cts.com (Bob Forsythe)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 92 06:21:28 PST
Organization: NetLink Online Communications, San Diego CA

<U53415@uicvm.uic.edu> (Mitch Pollack) writes:
> >
> But the central issue doesn't seem to be whether or not every resident
> of Canada has a right to an education in his or her own language.  As
> a US citizen, if I emigrated to Canada and chose to live in a town
> without an English-language school, I'd have no reason to expect the
> government to build one for me.  The point is whether or not immigrants
> should have the same freedom as native-born Canadians to choose among
> facilities that already exist.  If I emigrated and chose to live in, say,
> Westmount, I would not have the same right as my Canadian-born neighbor
> to send my children to a nearby English-language public school, for no
> other reason than that my neighbor learned English in Montreal and I learned
> it in New York.  That smacks of discrimination.
> 

     Well, the U.S. certainly would never consider spending public money 
to educate an immigrant in his/her own language, so I'm not sure how much 
we can criticize Quebec.  On the other hand, I find it rather foolish 
that the Quebec government thinks it can preserve Quebecois culture 
simply by requiring immigrants to learn the language.  The language is 
*not* the culture and immigrants generally do not share that culture; 
their children do, but that comes from living in the society, not just 
speaking the language.  The other problem, of course, is that the French 
government discriminates against French speaking citizens who aren't 
"pure wool" anyway.  A minute number of non francophone Quebecers work 
for the provincial government.  So what's the point of becoming 
bilingual?  Discrimination in any form is ugly, even when the purpose is 
to set right past injustice.  From where I stand, the Quebec government 
is practicing discrimination as an official policy, and it's driving the 
Anglophones out of Quebec in droves.  I find that to be a very foolish 
policy.

-Bob

--                    
INTERNET:  rcf@netlink.cts.com (Bob Forsythe)
UUCP:   ...!ryptyde!netlink!rcf
NetLink Online Communications * Public Access in San Diego, CA (619) 453-1115
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
From: ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti)
Subject: The Swedenfinns seek official support from Finland
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
                                                                                                                                                                                        
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 11:03:28 GMT

[ Article crossposted from soc.culture.nordic ]
[ Author was Jarmo Ryyti ]
[ Posted on Thu, 17 Dec 1992 06:57:11 GMT ]

An other attempt with better english...)

: This is a translation of the latest issue of Ruotsinsuomalainen (Swedenfinn)
:  of the 10.12.1992.
: 
: FOR THE MINORITY STATuS IS SEEKED SUPPORT FROM FINLAND (was the headline)
: 
: For the aim of the Swedenfinns to attain an ethnic and lingual minority
: status is seeked now official support from Finland.
: 
: The issue is taken on the agenda of The Committee of the Immigration and
: Refugee issues set by Finland's cabinet, (Suomen valtioneuvoston asettama
: pakolais- ja siirtolaisasiain neuvosto), who gave the declaration of
: the minority status made by the swedenfinnish organisations for the Finnish
: governement last friday. (4.12.92) The Committee of the Immigration and
: Refugee issues for their part received the proclamation of the minority
  status during the  Roots in Finland-festivities last august. 
: 
: According to the committee, Finland shall include the Swedenfinnish
  aim for the minority status into  the issues in official  negotiations
  between Finland and Sweden.
: 
: On the communication made by the committee is reminded prime minister Carl
: Bildt charactrazing the situation of the swedenfinns. Bild has given
  a statement that due to a long common history of the countries,
   finnish settlements in Sweden and great numbers of swedenfinns give
  a right to give a special status for the swedenfinns.
: 
: 
: Ps.
: My comments,
: 
: Very difficult to translate, because of byreucratical text!
 You should notice that Carl Bildt is a concervative. During the social
  democratical time swedish
: governements aimed only to assimilate swedenfinns by all means.
: As the peak of all swedish faschism Ms. Anita Gradin declared publicly
: "Sweden is monolingual and remains monolingual". She is a prominent
: politician in Sweden, normally you heard such speeches in South-Africa
: and in Nazi-Germany but Sweden is no exeption. Her speeches however did
: not rise international publicity. Source for the latest statement is
: an issue of Etel{-Suomen Sanomat, a respectful newspaper in Finland,
: issue of 11.12.92
: 
: Down with swedish faschism and oppression of the finns in Sweden!
: regards,
: jarmo ryyti
: 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,talk.politics.misc
From: gld@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gary L Dare)
Subject: Re: Death of Canada (Was: Death of America)
Followup-To: talk.politics.misc
Reply-To: gld@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gary L Dare)
Organization: The Bates Motel
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 04:15:10 GMT

cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok) writes:
>gld@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gary L Dare) writes:
>>
>>Yeah, but this guy is good.
>
>thanks! i do consider that a compliment.

It is ... I've enjoyed our conversation earlier in the week immensely.
What I posted up in Soc.culture.canada was a "trailer" to get folks to
read the stuff on Talk.politics.misc --- note my mention that Canadians
and Europeans don't hang out there much 'cos it's dominated by American
issues.  The article you cited is "clips" from one twice as long ...

>btw, seen the dollar lately? it's heading back below $.70, you know
>that, don't you?

Since it's steadied at under 79 cents, I'll hold off on buying Canuck
bucks then ... but if you're wrong, then I'm firing you as my broker!
(-;

>>While I find Reform a little strong for my Red Tory, fiscal 
>>conservative/social liberal beliefs
>
>what an oxymoron.

No, most modern descendants of what American libertarians refer to as
"classic European liberals" (and claim heritage from - ?!?!?) are
Paddy Ashdown's Liberal Party in Britain, Chirac's Rassemblement pour
le Republique (RPR) in France and various Red Tories (Joe Clark and
Flora MacDonald in the Conservative Party, John Napier "sold my soul
for rock 'n roll" Turner when he was back on Bay Street, Paul Martin
Jr. and Robert Kaplan of the Liberals) fall into this category ...
Kohl, too, although the Christian Democrats are an odd conglomeration.

>if you doubt me, pick up the book "Bankruptcy: 1995" by Harry E. 
>Figgie,  Jr. it shows how debt is swallowing the US government.

I found a thread on that book in Misc.invest when checking it after
this week's IBM stock plunge (plus, every grad who got an offer from
them is now on ice ... I just interviewed there myself).  By the way,
mainframes aren't dead ... I just killed every Sun server (of varying
sizes) at Columbia with one of my circuit simulations this week ... 
no mainframe that I can get ahold of here 'cos it's calculating the
Christmas paycheques this weekend.

>>(but I don't mind; I'm proud (-; to be a 
>>socialist!).
>
>geez. since you put your smiley next to "proud" and not next to "socialist",

Nitpicking again? (-; In case you haven't noticed, I like to line up
my right margins as best I can; ragged-right looks best on ASCII
displays, and ESC-2 ESC-Q can give Terry   Thomas toothgaps in  text
(that's EMACS, folks).

We're outta here ... and so am I (and, I was running backups the last
time that I ran into him! (-;)

gld (having an average weekend ...)
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Je me souviens ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gary L. Dare
> gld@cunixd.cc.columbia.EDU 		Support NAFTA
> gld@cunixc.BITNET			 Eat Mexican  (El Teddy's ad)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics,talk.abortion,talk.politics.animals
From: steven@advtech.uswest.com ( Steve Novak)
Subject: Re: Abortion, Caves, Galen (WAS Vegetarianism and abortion)
Organization: U S WEST Advanced Technologies
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 19:22:23 GMT

> = Bruce_Schuck@sfu.ca writes:

>Just for thought:

You forgot to think.

>In Canada, if you kill a baby 1 hour *before *it's born, and the 
>mother approves, it's called an abortion.

Very good!

>In Canada, if you kill a baby 1 hour *after* it's born, and the
>mother approves, it's called murder.

Well, of *course* it is.

>There is no fundamental physical differences between the babies in the
>two cases.

Of course there is, Brucie.  The fetus you're confusing with a baby is still
attached to the women and dependent wholly on her body for life.

The actual baby, born, alive and breathing, is not.

Pretty simple...like you, Bruce.  I suggest you find a more credible source
then Liar Holtsinger.

-- 
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| Steve Novak |    |"Wacker the K"| 
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
steven@advtech.USWest.Com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics,talk.abortion,talk.politics.animals
From: todd@juno.elcom.nitech.ac.jp (Todd Law)
Subject: Re: Vegetarianism and abortion (was Re: Speciesism)
Reply-To: todd@juno.elcom.nitech.ac.jp
Organization: Nagoya Institute of Technology, Nagoya ,Japan.
	<07DEC92.11618161.0059@VM1.MCGILL.CA>
	<TODD.92Dec14121806@athena.elcom.nitech.ac.jp>
	<1992Dec14.210217.5066@cdf.toronto.edu>
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 05:09:07 GMT


In article <1992Dec14.210217.5066@cdf.toronto.edu> g9rwaigh@cdf.toronto.edu (Rosemary Waigh) writes:

>1.  Most vegetarians are so for health reasons, not ethical reasons. One
>	would not expect to be able to predict their aspects towards abortion 
>	based on their desire for a healthy lifestyle.

900 million Hindus say you're wrong, wrong, wrong.

>2.  There is more involved in the abortion question than right to life, there
>	is also the question of the rights of the pregnant woman.
                                    ~~~~~~
"rights" should read "convenience".

>3.  Ethical vegetarians who are so to minimize *suffering* could consistently
>    support abortion in cases where this choice would cause less suffering
>    (e.g. if the z/e/f has not yet developed the capacity to suffer, or if the
>    pregnant woman's life is in danger).

The part where the woman's life is in danger is fine with me, but the
suffering is indetermined.  What z/e/f feel is largely unknown.
(I take it z/e/f means zygote/embryo/fetus).

>4.The people who *are* being inconsistent are those who insist on the sanctity
>  of life, yet eat the bodies of slaughtered animals.

I make no claim to consistency, but derive fun from arguing with those 
who think they have it.  Pass the headcheese.


Todd Law
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nagoya Institute of Technology,
Itoh Laboratory,			"Be excellent to each other."
todd@juno.elcom.nitech.ac.jp
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Robert_Broughton@mindlink.bc.ca (Robert Broughton)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: Vegetarianism and abortion (was Re: Speciesism)
Date: 20 Dec 92 19:11:10 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada

> Rheal Nadeau writes:
>
> >
> >>2.  There is more involved in the abortion question than right to life,
> there
> >>      is also the question of the rights of the pregnant woman.
> >                                    ~~~~~~
> >"rights" should read "convenience".
>
> Todd, if you believe an unwanted pregnancy to be a mere "inconvenience",
> then I'd say you're totally unqualified to discuss this issue . . .
>

How do you know that he meant a "mere" inconvenience? Maybe he understands
that an unwanted pregnancy is a "major" inconvenience for most women.

--
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

Robert Broughton    Robert_Broughton@mindlink.bc.ca

"We calm and reassure. We embrace people with the message that we're
all in it together. That our leaders are infallible and that there is
nothing, absolutely nothing wrong." - Miles Drentell, _thirtysomething_
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics,talk.abortion,talk.politics.animals
From: g9rwaigh@cdf.toronto.edu (Rosemary Waigh)
Subject: Vegetarianism and abortion (was Re: Speciesism)
Organization: University of Toronto Computing Disciplines Facility
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 21:02:17 GMT

In article <TODD.92Dec14121806@athena.elcom.nitech.ac.jp> todd@juno.elcom.nitech.ac.jp writes:
>If you want to use contradictions to argue with vegetarians, try getting
>the pro-abortion variety of vegetarians (which most are, in my experience)
>to explain their consistency.  To these people, a chicken has more right
>to life than a six-month old fetus.  Gets 'em every time.

1.  Most vegetarians are so for health reasons, not ethical reasons. One
    would not expect to be able to predict their aspects towards abortion 
    based on their desire for a healthy lifestyle.

2.  There is more involved in the abortion question than right to life, there
    is also the question of the rights of the pregnant woman.

3.  Ethical vegetarians who are so to minimize *suffering* could consistently
    support abortion in cases where this choice would cause less suffering
    (e.g. if the z/e/f has not yet developed the capacity to suffer, or if the
    pregnant woman's life is in danger).

4.  The people who *are* being inconsistent are those who insist on the sanctity
    of life, yet eat the bodies of slaughtered animals.

Follow-up to talk.abortion and talk.politics.animals.
-- 
Rosemary Waigh             Undergraduate, Computer Science / Linguistics
g9rwaigh@cdf.utoronto.ca   University of Toronto
	"Looking at the Earth from afar you realize it is too small
	for conflict and just big enough for co-operation."  Yuri Gagarin
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics
From: CZ94@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA (CZ94)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics,talk.abortion
Subject: RE: Circus Elephants
Date: 16 Dec 92 15:11:54 GMT
Organization: McGill University

In article <1992Dec15.233258.27601@super.org> wheeler@super.org (Ferrell S. Wheeler) writes:
>Circus Elephants
>
   text deleted

I queried the original poster by e-mail to ask why this was posted
to soc.culture.canada, can.politics. and talk.abortion.  He
promptly replied that it was intended for talk.politics.animals only,
and he conveys his apologies to the net for the inadvertent posting
to other groups.

Tom Box
CZ94@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA
From: francis_g@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
Subject: Moving to Canada
Date: 18 Dec 1992 21:49:50 GMT
Organization: Wellington City Council (Public Access), Wgtn, Nz
Reply-To: francis_g@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz
NNTP-Posting-Host: kosmos.wcc.govt.nz

I would like to explore my options regarding moving to
Canada and am wondering if this is the right group to 
discuss the issues.  New Zealand is a really nice place
but I want my kids to get a broader out look on life
by moving to another country.
 
Gary
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
From: jbutt@garfield.cs.mun.ca (Jonathan Butt)
Subject: E-mail and the CBC
Organization: CS Dept., Memorial University of Newfoundland
Distribution: can
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 21:03:44 GMT


Does the CBC have an e-mail address ?? If they do could someone send it to me, or post it, or something like that.

If they don't have an address, could someone make them get one ?? Please ?? :)


-- 
Jonathan D. Butt (aka. Slammer)
jbutt@garfield.cs.mun.ca
Xref: sparky soc.culture.canada:9460 talk.abortion:52247
From: regard@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com (Adrienne Regard)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,talk.abortion
Subject: Re: Abortion, Caves, Galen (WAS Vegetarianism and abortion)
Date: 17 Dec 1992 11:50:06 -0800
Organization: Hewlett Packard, San Diego Division
NNTP-Posting-Host: hpsdde.sdd.hp.com

In article <BzF17n.Bzw@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca> tjdoran@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca (TJ Doran) writes:

>Career?!? Plans?!? (Health I can understand...). As a person who almost never
>made it to the post-natal part, I'm glad my mother decided to put off her
>career, plans, etc. in favour of my *life*.

Bully for you

>So is she.

Now think about this for a moment.  What if she wasn't glad?  What if your
birth had been the result of tragic circumstances for her, had ruined her
'plans', and had turned her from a wonderful, giving, full human being into
a bitter shell.

Suppose just for a moment that your mom HATED having to bear you for 9 months.

Do you think society should force her to?
Do you think that *your* feelings about *your* existance should have
dominence over hers?
Do you love your mother?  Would you have her enslaved for your sake?

It's a thought experiment.  You don't have to answer.

Adrienne Regard
From: madjdsad@phakt.usc.edu (Zagros Madjd-Sadjadi)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada
Subject: La Belle et La Bete
Date: 11 Dec 1992 22:44:06 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Distribution: soc
NNTP-Posting-Host: phakt.usc.edu


Does anyone know why I could always get any book I wanted from the United
States when I lived in Canada but now that I'm in the United States, no
music or book store can even ORDER Canadian books or tapes?  This is VERY
frustrating because I am doing constant research on Canadian politics and
economics and also because I REALLY want to get the French version of Beauty
and the Beast and The Little Mermaid.

Zagros Madjd-Sadjadi
madjdsad@aludra.usc.edu

-------------------------------------------------
Join the effort to merge the United States and Canada -- Territorial Status
for the USA in the Canadian Confederation!!
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics
From: golchowy@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy)
Subject: Re: Negative Income Tax (Was: Social programs)
Organization: University of Toronto Chemistry Department
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 17:03:13 GMT

In article <1992Dec15.052506.18337@csi.uottawa.ca> cbbrowne@csi.uottawa.ca (Christopher Browne) writes:
>
>As a sort of "side comment", it's interesting that many of those that
>seem to dislike the "universal" social programs are the same ones that
>like the idea of major reforms to the income tax system, ala "Negative
>Income Taxes."  After all, what is more universal than Income Taxes?
>
>A Negative Income Tax system would in fact be (to steal a line) "The
>Mother of All Universal Economic Social Programs."
>
>Quote of the day: "There ain't no universal social program as
>universal as a Negative Income Tax system."
>

Universality as it has been come to be known in Canada means paying
millionaires government pensions and family allowance cheques.  It
means less money is available for the needy.

A negative income tax is a targetted social program for the needy.

As a society, we cannot afford universality, nor massive government
bureaucracy to oversee an overblown web of different targetted 
or means-tested social programs...a targetted, non-means tested,
no-fault, non-bureaucratic and efficient social safety net is the
negative income tax.  With it we can eliminate every other social
program and its related bureaucracy, and turn UI into a European-like
training fund completely.

Gerald

Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics,talk.abortion,talk.politics.animals
From: bob1@cos.com (Bob Blackshaw)
Subject: Re: Abortion, Caves, Galen (WAS Vegetarianism and abortion)
Organization: Corporation for Open Systems
Distribution: na 
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 17:43:31 GMT

In <BzF17n.Bzw@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca> tjdoran@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca (TJ Doran) writes:

>In article <1992Dec16.211950.9531@advtech.uswest.com> steven@advtech.uswest.com ( Steve Novak) writes:
>>> = todd@juno.elcom.nitech.ac.jp writes:
>>
[........] zip
>>>Real justice would reflect a balance of both 
>>>individuals' rights. Abortion is about as one-sided as it gets.
>>>Adoption would be a pretty good balance, don't you think?
>>
>>No.  Not unless you could whisk that pesky fetus from real womb to
>>artificial womb until birth.  You're ignoring the nine months that can
>>change a woman's life.  I.e., screw up career, screw up health, screw up
>>plans...

>Career?!? Plans?!? (Health I can understand...). As a person who almost never
>made it to the post-natal part, I'm glad my mother decided to put off her
>career, plans, etc. in favour of my *life*.

>So is she.

That's fine, and we're glad for both of you. We are especially glad that
she *chose* to have you. Can you recognize the significance of *chose*?

>-- 
>TJ Doran  	              |"There you stand like a duck in a thunderstorm
>TJDORAN@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca | again... Aren't you ever going to understand?" 
>                              |                         - W.A. Mozart
				^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Read it again, and think on it.

REB
Newsgroups: soc.culture.canada,can.politics,talk.abortion,talk.politics.animals