From: pdh@netcom.com (Phil Howard )
Subject: Re: The question of Experience
Keywords: college job entry cs sysadm
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 23:05:49 GMT

john@newave.newave.mn.org (John A. Weeks III) writes:

>Yes, but you will probably get screwed in the process.  Most companies
>that offer "fun" jobs want people with 2 or 4 year CS degrees.  What might
>happen is that you end up with a job that pays $18,000 (because you have
>no degree), while someone else doing a similar job might make $38,000.  And
>when you are searching for a job, if you appear to be equally acceptable
>for a job as someone with a degree, the person with a degree might be picked
>over you because they could be seen as less "risky" to hire.

What if the person w/o the degree is more qualified where it counts, in the
actual technical abilities to do the job and learn the new things that always
come along (we are, of course, talking about the computer field, where new
things ALWAYS come along).  Just how MUCH more qualified does someone have to
be to make it a "tough decision" level of equality for you in a role as a
hiring manager?


>College is a game.  You might know this stuff, but a college degree is
>proof that you have the ability to learn under pressure and stick with
>a job for 4 years until it is complete.  Simply by having a degree, you
>have credibility.  If you want a job without a degree, you need to find
>a way to fill this credibility gap.  One way might be to have references
>from a major development project that you worked on.

Sticking to something has been used quite often as a measure of quality in
an individual, but I do need to point out an alternative.  Of course one's
ability to stick to something when there is real benefit to be gained is
certainly a proper measure of quality.  But what if that thing happens to
turn out to not be of real benefit?  I would consider someone's ability to
RECOGNIZE that, and to be DECISIVE about what they are going to do to be
as much a measure of quality.


>> However, when it comes to schooling, I'm not that talented.  My talents
>> are limited to computers and writing.  I tend to fail things like History,
>> or even Advanced Math.  I initially chose to go to college, finguring that
>> here I would learn all i need to know about computers and programming.  I
>> chose a respectable school (U of I, Urbana-Champaign) and enrolled.
>
>In college, you learn theory and how to think--it is not a vocational
>school for computer programmers.  If you want to go the vocational school
>route, find a good school that specializes in computer science.  The CDI
>(former Control Data Institute, now called Career Development Institute)
>in the Twin Cities or Brown Institute are good alternatives.  Don't waste
>your money or time with a vo-tech or on a mail order scam.

I know the person who started this thread personally.  He does fit the
description of the very rare individual who could learn faster on his own
than in class.  If you could find a school which would run him through
the entire BS and MS degrees in CS in 2 or 3 years, but with the same
number of class hours (just taking a double load of classes is not what
what I am talking about), then I would recommend he go to that school.

The vocational route probably is NOT what would take advantage of his
talents.  But the traditional college education is not either.  The problem
is that we have 2 different areas of learning and we combine them with 2
different kinds of educational system.  What he needs is the level of
learning you can get from going through a MS or Ph.D CS program, compressed
into 2-3 years, but without the traditional "liberal education".

Lacking that liberal education will still put him behind others that do
have it, because such an education is of value.  But in his case, he may
not really succeed well in it and won't realize the value anyway.  But
I know of no schools that specialize in a THOROUGH technical education
as an alternative to traditional college.


>Since you really do think you are good with computers, it would be a shame
>to see your career stunted by having a hard time getting through college.
>Perhaps you need a different approach.  You need a plan where you can take
>you CS classes and get your degree without having your other classes hold
>you back.  Most universities allow you transfer class credit from one
>school to another without having the grade follow you, provided that you
>get a C or better.  I reccomend finding a small community college where
>you can muddle through most of your non-CS classes, then transfer to a
>4 year school to do your upper division CS classes.  All of your community
>college grades will go away, and your GPA will be based mainly on your
>stellar performance in CS classes.  BTW, you should plan this out carefully
>before you jump in to make sure everything works between the two schools
>you choose.

Knowing him, he probably needs to do this CONCURRENTLY.  If he "sits out"
of CS for any length of time, his quest for knowledge about computers will
only end up hurting his ability to proceed through school.  The trouble is
a lot of big colleges and universities do not accept transfer credits taken
concurrently with enrollment in their school.


>> My question is again: Can what I ask be done?  Does anyone have any 
>> tips on how to convince an employer that I am worth the gamble of hiring
>> someone like me?  Do any of you Head Hunters out there need someone like me?

>One other possibility is doing consulting.  If you know a particular program
>very well and can demonstrate mastery of the subject, you might be able to
>get work through AIC (Analysts International Corp) or Cap Gemani.  Items in
>demand right now are PowerBuilder (very hot at the moment), Paradox, DBase,
>Clipper, Sybase, Ingress, DB2, Pick, and Cobol.  While these two organizations
>are sometimes less than highly thought of, it is a good way to get a start in
>CS.  Once you get a contract, it will be up to you to prove yourself.  If
>things go badly on the first contract, your career might be cut short.

This seems like a useful suggestion.  However can this really be done by
someone with as little formal experience and education as mentioned?


BTW.  I personally have no degree.  However I did waste 6 years in school
and wish I could have gone back and quit earlier.  I did quit when it FINALLY
realized the cost/benefit of staying was just not worth it (it would have
required almost 2 more years just due to the way classes were scheduled).
I have 12 years experience since leaving school.  Still there are a lot of
hiring managers out there that won't even talk to you w/o a degree, but you
probably would not want to work for them anyway.  I've run into my share of
them, and I know I would not want to.
-- 
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| Phil Howard,  pdh@netcom.com,  KA9WGN    Spell protection?  "1(911)A1" |
| "It's not broken... it's just functionally challenged" --Phil and Pete |
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Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc