HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: casspa@atlantis.CS.ORST.EDU (Paul Cass)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
Subject: Re: Political Greens
Date: 12 Jan 1993 18:01:28 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Outreach Services - Oregon State University
Distribution: alt
NNTP-Posting-Host: atlantis.cs.orst.edu
Keywords: greens, broccoli and nuclear responsibility.

Last night I was reading "Media & the Environment" and ran across a
reference to the "Blues".  Does anyone have any information on this
group, such as who they are and what they believe and their relationship
to the Greens?
Paul

-- 
                          * * * * * * *
"It is possible to join forces, to identify common goals, and to agree on
 common action." - U.N. World Commission on Development and Environment
		       casspa@jacobs.cs.orst.edu
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: Greens vs. Property Rights
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
Date: 4 Jan 93 08:19:45

Does the experience with having socialists in power in many countries
in this century have any relevance at all to what to do next?
What ought present socialists to learn from it?

--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.

Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
From: kyle@Csli.Stanford.EDU (Kyle Wohlmut)
Subject: Re: PLEASE SIGN IN!
Followup-To: alt.politics.greens
Summary: Merry Christmas, you wonderful old Building and Loan!
Keywords: This article printed on 100% recycled electrons
Organization: Rocking Pig Enterprises
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 23:10:33 GMT

In article <1993Jan5.174210.8136@vexcel.com> dean@vexcel.com (Dean Alaska) writes:
>My name is Dean Myerson and I am an engineer in Boulder, Colorado.  I have
>been a member of the Boulder Green Alliance for a little over a year.  
>Unlike in California, where the Greens could use a petition drive to
>become a party, in Colorado you must get 10% of the vote in a 
>gubernatorial election.  Fat chance, especially when we are focused
>on community issues.  We will become a political organization within
>weeks, however.  This lets our candidates run under the name of
>Colorado Green Party, instead of Independent, but we will need to
>use petitions to get them on the ballot.  We were recently

Not precisely; as a party we had to get 80,000 registered voters by a
certain date (which was Jan 1, 1992 I believe) in order to get on the
ballot, rather than being just an 'Independent/Other _________' blank.
Which I am happy to say we did, and are now an official party in
California.

/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/
                       /               
/'''   Kyle Wohlmut    -  'Heute back ich, morgen brau ich, und       
c-OO                   /   uebermorgen hol ich mir der Koenigin ihr      
   \   Rocking Pig     -   Kind.  Ach, wie gut dass niemand weiss,
  -     Enterprises    /   dass ich kyle@csli.stanford.EDU heiss.'    
                       -                                              
-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-/-
From: Dale McMillen <dmcmillen@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
Date: 07 Jan 93 21:57 PST
Subject: Re: LET'S DISCUSS NUCLEAR ENERGY!
Nf-ID: #R:cdp:1678600048:cdp:1678600067:000:643
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!dmcmillen    Jan  7 21:57:00 1993


I would be happy to provide more details about the mining and dumping
of radioactive fuels on native lands, if you would like.  To the
person who suggested that I just got pamphlet with no basis in fact,
I would humbly suggest you check _your_ facts first.
 
The question of whether I just oppose radioactive mining or all mining,
I would answer that I oppose poisoning people and the environment.
Mining of non-radioactive materials in ecologically sensitive ways
that do not harm miners would probably be acceptable, if it were
done in moderation.  I am not sure if it is possible to achieve
these criteria by mining radioactive ore.
 
Dale

Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
From: Dale McMillen <dmcmillen@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
Date: 03 Jan 93 19:58 PST
Subject: NEWS ABOUT THE GREENS
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1678600016:000:702
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!dmcmillen    Jan  3 19:58:00 1993


FYI:
 
Detroit Summer was a coalition effort by The Greens and a number of
community organizations in Detroit to to rebuild communities "from
the ground up".  This included repairing buildings, marching on
crack houses, organizing arts and murals, gardens on vacant city
lots, and so on.  125 young people from around the country came
to Detroit last summer as part the project to volunteer to work
two weeks in the inner city.
 
I am not sure of the extent that The Greens, as a national organization,
will participate in future Detroit Summers.  However, many Green Locals
around the country, including Detroit (from what I understand) will
continue to work on what we now call "Green Cities".

Dale

Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
From: gummitch@techbook.com (Jeff Frane)
Subject: Re: PLEASE SIGN IN!
Organization: TECHbooks --- Public Access UNIX --- (503) 220-0636
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 00:45:21 GMT

Dale McMillen <dmcmillen@igc.apc.org> writes:


>Hi everybody!
> 
>This being a new discussion group, it's kinda nice to get to know
>everybody a little more.  Please let us know who you are by posting
>a reponse to this topic.  It would be interesting to know where
>you are from, your job, interests and that other general personal
>stuff.  Since this is a discussion about the Green Party, it would
>also be interesting to know if you are an active member, have had
>contacts with or opinions about the Green Party.
> 

An interesting idea, although it makes me feel as though I'd blundered
into an AA meeting.  "Hi, my name is Jeff, and I'm an alcoholic -- or,
anyway, I'd like to be..."

I have been intrigued by the notion of a Green Party since I first heard
about its appearance in Europe, particularly West Germany, a number of
years ago.  My support for the idea of an American Green Party stems not
only from an awareness of the need to protect the environment from
abusive corporate practice, public ignorance and the so-called "wise
use" movement, but from the obvious need for a viable Third Party to
combat Demo/Republicrat inertia.

I live in Oregon, which means I am almost daily bombarded with
information/propoganda about timber interests, spotted owls, ecological
"extremism" etc.  If Oregon can develop a viable Green Party, I'd become
a Yellow Dog Green.

--Jeff Frane

-- 
gummitch@techbook.COM  Public Access UNIX at (503) 220-0636 (1200/2400) 


Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: Population
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
	<1993Jan8.184537.14032@netcom.com>
Date: 8 Jan 93 15:20:58

I would like to see John Ladasky's napkin calculation.
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
From: mattb@sdd.hp.com (Matt Bonner)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
Subject: Re: PLEASE SIGN IN!
Date: 6 Jan 1993 00:32:54 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, San Diego Division
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: hpsdlg16.sdd.hp.com

Hi, my name is Matt Bonner, I'm an engineer at Hewlett-Packard
in San Diego, I registered for the Greens party during their
campaign to get on the ballot, but only because I read about it
in the papers, not because I've actually met another living
Green in this town.  Is there a San Diego Greens chapter or
something?  I didn't even vote for anyone for the Greens seats
in the primaries because I never saw any information on them.
Can anyone help?  I realize I'm living in a county that gave
Bruce Hirschenson a majority, but...

Thanks,
Matt
-- 
Matt Bonner                  |  Email: mattb@sdd.hp.com
Hewlett-Packard Company      |  Snail: 16399 West Bernardo Drive
Ink-jet Components Division  |         San Diego, CA  92127-1899
From: alaric@sti.com (Alaric Tekiahyn)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
Subject: Re: Greens vs. Property Rights
Date: 7 Jan 1993 03:39:03 GMT
Organization: Software Transformation, Inc.
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: smurf.sti.com

In article <JMC.93Jan6095002@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>, jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy) writes:
] In article <1678600031@igc.apc.org> Dale McMillen <dmcmillen@igc.apc.org> writes:
]    > 4. The two billion malnourished people are less malnourished than
]    > before the Green Revolution, and there is a lot more where that
]    > came from.
] 
]    The Green Revolution [sic] brought in mono-culture crops supported
]    by biocides, fertilizers, and oil consuming farm machinery.
]    Originally, there was a surplus because the soil was still rich from
]    its previous organic care and because the insect pests had not mutated
]    to adjust to the biocides.  However, this method of farming began to
]    render less and less as the soil was depleted of its organic nutrients
]    and the insects became resistant to biocides.  In many parts of the
]    world, the situation has gotten so bad that farming communities have had
]    to revert to traditional organic methods of farming.  And guess what?
]    The soil began to produce abundantly again!
] 
]    Dale
] 
] You just made this up out of anecdotes.  Look up some actual
] statistics of world agricultural production over the last 30 years.
] --
] John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
] *
] He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.

Wrong.  He's telling the truth.  Try looking up some "actual statistics"
yourself, and think about what the numbers MEAN - i.e, how much yield
is produced by how many people trying to farm how much land, not just
raw totals.  If you just look at the totals, you're falling headfirst
into the trap of "lies, damned lies, and statistics", to quote the
inestimable Mr. Disraeli.



-- 
      "Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom."  --  Thomas Jefferson
    ......................................................................
    Phil Stracchino : phils@sti.com : alaric@sti.com : The Renaissance Man
      PGP 2.0 - Freeware public-key data encryption.  Get it and use it!
           Finger alaric@sti.com for PGP 2.0 info and my public key
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
From: moore@oars.santafe.edu (Cris Moore)
Subject: Re: Greens vs. Property Rights
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 93 21:09:44 GMT
Organization: Santa Fe Institute

To Karen Lofstrom,

You say the national "leadership" doesn't listen to you.  If you mean
the Green Council, you are represented by a member who is accountable to you
in a way that few other organizations provide.
In addition, it looks like states (like yours and mine) may soon have the
right to their own, direct representation on the Council.

And as for attending the Congress, a lot of financial aid was available ---
and as someone else already pointed out, there was a large contingent from
Alaska at the last one in Minneapolis.  Is it possible that rather than being
"small, distant, and poor", you're simply not that interested in 
being part of the national Green movement?

As for being affected by what other Greens say, this is a concern for me too.
What if I'm trying to explain to poor New Mexicans that the Greens care about
them, when many Greens seem only to care about the "environment"?
Without an economic platform, we'll be sunk.  What about when some other
Green advocates the gasoline tax, which is extremely regressive and will
hurt the poor the most?  In other words, I have as much worries about
"damage control" from other people's definitions of the Greens as you do.

Finally, I have to say that as a grass-roots organizer in a community
torn apart by low wages, high rents, and land speculation, my Left Green
ideas get me a lot farther than I think your "moderate" ideas would.
Of course I don't go around blurting out phrases like "dictatorship of the
proletariat", but everyone here knows that the economy is exploiting them
in a fundamental way.  Santa Fe needs a community-based economy,
based on skills and self-respect instead of degrading service jobs,
if it is to survive as a community and a culture.  What does your
"moderate" platform say to the people here?

A lot of liberal groups have fallen behind where
the American people actually are, and in their urge to be "moderate"
have faded into the background of uninspiring compromises,
vague principles, and mushy politics.  I hope the Greens doesn't travel
down this same road.

If you think that Left ideas have no resonance in the American people, 
I suggest you study the history of the Populists (Lawrence Goodwyn's 
The Populist Moment is good) and the early Socialists, before the 
American Left became the fragmented joke it is now.
Don't let McCarthyist stereotypes dictate your perception of 
what was a very strong movement in its time.

- Cris Moore
New Mexico Green Party
moore@santafe.edu
From: Dale McMillen <dmcmillen@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
Date: 04 Jan 93 21:02 PST
Subject: Re: NOT LEFT NOR RIGHT BUT UPFRONT
Nf-ID: #R:cdp:1678600013:cdp:1678600030:000:582
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!dmcmillen    Jan  4 21:02:00 1993


> I think there is another part of it.  Both the left and the right 
> traditionally idolize consumption and a materialisic lifestyle. 
> The concept fo sustainable development and lifestyles is not a 
> part of traditional left ideas.  
 
I also have read where people of the left have traditionally
"idolized consumption and a materialistic lifestyle" like perhaps,
unions of old always wanting more (or at least as the history books
have written).  But nowadays, I think most folks on "the left" seek
sustainable development and lifestyles in much the same way as
Greens.
 
Dale
From: tilley@kodak.com (Dave Tilley)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
Subject: Re: Greens vs. Property Rights
Date: 7 Jan 93 20:17:55 GMT
Reply-To: tilley@kodak.com (Dave Tilley)
Organization: Image Processing Algorithms Laboratory, Eastman Kodak Co.

In article <C0EBCw.11E@techbook.com>, gummitch@techbook.com (Jeff Frane) writes:
|> leecr@microsoft.com (Lee Crocker) writes:
|> 
|> Even the simplest
|> American history course should reveal the idiocy of suggesting that
|> capitalism -- at least as it is actually _practiced_ -- is anything but
|> heartless and immoral.  


Capitalism is heartless. In the same way that evolution is heartless.
And the same goes for immoral. Neither one is immoral. morality has
nothing to do with it. Capitalism is merely a way for people to exchange
effort. It is not immaculate nor defiled. It is certainly no "wrong".
It does not decree that people should starve or be homeless. Each of
us as individuals decides how much of our effort to devote to others.
We do this through donating money/property/time to those things that
we deem important.

Capitalism does allow you and I to give whatever we have to others if
we so desire. I suggest that if Capitalism is immoral then you are
not doing it right. 

It is not the solution nor is it the cause of our moral problems.

Materialism may be, but the two are not synonymous.

|>Whatever benefits/kindnesses are practiced by
|> corporations today were forced on them by the collective action of
|> workers, NOT by any inherent virtue in capitalism.
|> 
|> --Jeff Frane

The second part of this is correct. Capitalism has no inherent virtue.
The first part is incorrect. Collective actions by workers did not force
all good actions by corporations today. In fact, Unions have not always
been the most moral of institutions. For instance I recall a friend
having his car bashed in by union members because he wanted to
work during a strike. Not the most moral thing. I quit the same job
because I was not willing to have rocks thrown at me as I left every night.

Corporations, unions, religious organizations, schools, Capitalism, Socialism,
etc. ALL these things are AMORAL.  People are moral or immoral.

This Capitalist society is currently helping starving people in lots of places.
It is also standing by while people starve in other places. It is WE THE PEOPLE
that make the difference.

Dave
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
From: dean@vexcel.com (Dean Alaska)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
Subject: Re: NOT LEFT NOR RIGHT BUT UPFRONT
Date: 8 Jan 93 15:34:13 GMT
Organization: VEXCEL Corporation, Boulder CO

In article <C0Gy8A.D6J@darkside.osrhe.uoknor.edu> bil@okcforum.osrhe.uoknor.edu (Bill Conner) writes:
>
>   A second point, related to the first, is, why are you against
>material prosperity? Would you have us return to the 19th century,
>living in hovels owned by the company that employs us, indebted to the
>Company Store, putting our kids to work at 9 or 10 years old just to
>earn enough to feed your family? Would you have us live at the mercy
>of those without mercy? Can you explain why material prosperity is
>evil, why I should guilty for wanting it? On these two points alone
>you've lost most of your credibility. 
>
>Bill

Certainly there is something between the lifestyle of the early
industrial revolution and the consumerism of the 1990's?  It is a
common false dichotomy to say that life must either be like it was
once upon a time or that we must accept it as it is now. 
-- 
==============================================================================
	Dean Myerson     (aka dingo in boulder)     dean@vexcel.com
==============================================================================
Xref: sparky alt.politics.greens:312 sci.energy:6788
From: jmmatthe@apgea.army.mil (Jeffrey M. Matthews <jmmatthe>)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens,sci.energy
Subject: Re: LET'S DISCUSS NUCLEAR ENERGY!
Date: 11 Jan 93 21:49:02 GMT
Organization: CRDEC APG

In article <82344@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM> mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark Wilson) writes:
>In <1993Jan7.125817.14283@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> prs9k@brain.med.virginia.edu (Phil Scarr) writes:
>
>|In article <1678600048@igc.apc.org> Dale McMillen <dmcmillen@igc.apc.org> writes:
>|>Where do you suggest storing the radioctive waste?
>
>|Breeder reactors don't produce waste, they consume it.  There is one
>|small side effect though:  unlike normal reactors which can only
>|meltdown, breeder reactors can blow up like a bomb.  Read _We Almost
>|Lost Detroit_ for more details on the near fatal runaway reaction at the
>|Enrico Fermi reactor.
>
>Wrong.
>I've never seen the book, but I will look for it.
>I've cross posted this to sci.energy in hopes that one of the gurus over
>there will be able to give a more complete answer.
>-- 

I heard of that book, even saw it in the library.  I was going to read it
as soon as I could get the companion book "We *DIDN'T* Almost Lose Detroit"
by Detroit Edison, but circumstance intervened.

If memory serves, the book was written by the same guy who wrote "In Search
of Noah's Ark" and "The Lincoln Conspiracy".  If I've missed on that one,
I apologise.

J. Matthews
From: Dale McMillen <dmcmillen@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
Date: 03 Jan 93 19:58 PST
Subject: Re: NOT LEFT NOR RIGHT BUT UPFRONT
Nf-ID: #R:cdp:1678600013:cdp:1678600017:000:454
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!dmcmillen    Jan  3 19:58:00 1993


Walter Lee,
 
In your self-introduction you made this comment:
 
 > My impression of the GPUSA (entirely from reading this newsgroup)
 > is not entirely positive.  They seem to be sort of, shall we
 > say aggressive, in holding their people to the party line.
 
I would hope you would be willing to expand on this.  Was it something
I said?
 
Dale
 
P.S. I am posting this on a different topic, so as to keep the
introductions topic a clean as possible.
From: alaric@sti.com (Alaric Tekiahyn)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
Subject: Re: Long-term leases?
Date: 6 Jan 1993 03:43:11 GMT
Organization: Software Transformation, Inc.
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: smurf.sti.com

In article <JMC.93Jan5165544@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>, jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy) writes:
] The problem with leasing land is that the lessee is constrained
] from investing in improvements unless he can be sure of getting
] the benefits.
[...]
] If the lumber companies had to buy the land, they would invest
] in its continued productivity according to the properties of
] the particular piece of land.  When they lease Government land
] with the terms of the lease fixed by law, they do exactly what
] the law requires, nothing different.


Exactly!  If a lumber company (in this example) has to *buy* land,
at a price representative of the actual worth of the land and the
resources on it, then it's in their economic interests to manage it
well.
On the other hand, if they can just lease it for a nominal fee
(which it would have to be, because if they had to "buy" it every ten
years, they'd revolt), then it's in their interests to just strip it
bare then move on to another patch.  Particularly if whoever is
administrating the leases *has* to give them new leases when they
ask for them.  (Which would, IMHO, be a basically necessary condition
to prevent extortion on the part of the lessor agency.)

Of course, this problem can be partially alleviated by requiring, as
a condition of lease renewals or issuance of new leases, that at the
time of lease renewal or application for a new lease, all lands
currently leased to the lessee must be in *at least* as good a
condition as when originally leased.

(But only *partially* alleviated, note.)

It's a complex problem, and like most such, it has no simple answer...
there is no instant gratification.


-- 
      "Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom."  --  Thomas Jefferson
    ......................................................................
    Phil Stracchino : phils@sti.com : alaric@sti.com : The Renaissance Man
      PGP 2.0 - Freeware public-key data encryption.  Get it and use it!
           Finger alaric@sti.com for PGP 2.0 info and my public key
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: Greens vs. Property Rights
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
	<JMC.93Jan6095002@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> <1ig8knINN1rv@smurf.sti.com>
Date: 6 Jan 93 22:35:05

Here are some actual statistics taken from _The Statistical Abstract
of the United States_ 1986 edition, p. 833.

World production
of agricultural
commodities
		1970		1978		1984
corn		278		390		449
rice		316		385		470
wheat		318		449		522

all figures in millions of metric tons.
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.

Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
From: mysti@sierra.sybase.com (Mysti Rubert)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
Subject: Re: Gender Balance?
Date: 9 Jan 93 01:05:45 GMT

We're here, really we are!

-- 
========================
Mysti Rubert, Oaktown, California

"It's not the men in my life, but the life in my men."  Mae West
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens