From: mhickey@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (No One)
Subject: Re: Vampire vs. Hero vs. Gurps etc...(Long!)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 07:55:14 GMT

davis@cwis.unomaha.edu (James J Davis) writes:

>In response to No One Of Importance, I would like to mention several things.

>First, if a lack of rules is entertaining, why have any rules at all?  Would
>not it be far more entertaining to have no rules then?  It would certianly
>be less exepensive!  My complaint has not been about the lack of rules, but
>the quality of the rules.  They are *bad*.  Considering that they could be
>both simpler and better, I don't see any reason to use them.

As I said, rules are needed to stop arguements.  Rules are needed to 
determine the elements of the game that are governed by chance as opposed
to role-playing.  Conversations can be role-played.  Combat (although it
would be entertaining) can't.  We have to buy the rules of Vampire to get 
source information.  (Perhaps WhiteWolf would give us a discount on their
products, if we could by only the parts of their material we wanted) 

>VtM, to me, doesn't stress roleplaying any better than any other game.  It
>seems the idea for pro-VtM netters is that by not having a rule on a subject,
>this encourages roleplay.  Well, given the choice of having a rule and not
>using it, or not having the rule, I choose the the former.  (In other words,
>let's allow GURPS/Hero to 'wing it' if we allow VtM to do the same.  It is
>only fair.)

I also said that there was no reason GURPS or Hero couldn't be a good
role-playing game.  I too like having detailed rules, but I don't let a
set of rules alone dominate what I like or hate.  There are no other
good systems with Vampire material right now, so until one comes out I'll
keep my Vampire the Masquerade and its *bad* rules.

>As to looking up rules during a game session, I hate to say this, but there
>was a lot more rules-looking during the VtM games I was in than in most Hero
>games.  Why?  Vampire rules, while fewer, are not self-consistant, requiring
>more rules-looks than normal.  Hero rules, although there are more, are first
>more self-consistant and second mostly centered on character generation.
>Therefore, I need to look rules up to rarely that I don't even bother to
>bring a rulesbook to many of my games.  

I have to agree with you here.  Last year, when I played the game for the
first time, we spent more time searching through that damned, cryptic book
than actually playing.  However, Vampire the Masquerade has a 2nd Edition
book out, now.  Trust me, it is _far_ easier to find things in it now.
The guys at WhiteWolf have apparently listened to their consumers.  The
rules are better explained this time and things do run a lot smoother. 

>I played Vampire, I entered with an open mind.  And, I was *horribly*
>disappionted.  I am, first and foremost, a role-player.  After I found
>that all systems essentially allow for the same level of roleplay, I
>discovered that this meant you could have great roleplay AND great game
>mechanics.  In other words, you can have your cake and eat it too.  Why
>make a choice, like you have to when you play VtM?

You probably know that Steve Jackson Games is going to be making a
GURPS Vampire source book.  It isn't due to be released until sometime
next year.  I happen to love GURPS and I am waiting for this source
book with 'open arms.'  We will have to wait and see how well SJG
translates the VtM information.  If it is done poorly, people are
better off with VtM for vampire characters.  If it is done well, then
I will be one of the first in line to buy it.  But, until then,
those of us who _thirst_ for vampire will continue to have fun playing
VtM.  ;)  

>Now, I know some games, like VtM, try to present themselves as superior
>ROLE-playing games.  It's a very 'politically correct' thing to do.  I
>only ask everyone to consider that system is independant of roleplay. 
>Then, look at the *huge* realm of great roleplaying experiences, just
>waiting to happen!  My arguements about VtM are only about it's mechanics.
>It's a fine setting.  What amazes me, however, is that people who don't
>supposedly care about mechanics should feel the need to respond to
>mechanics-related posts.  I also find it amusing that more than one have
>tried to imply that other games are ROLL-playing.  Seems like a petty
>jibe to me.  If anything, let's dispense with that.

Unfortunatly, the system is not independant of the setting and consequently
the role-playing.  It is hard to apply GURPS rules to vampire character
generation.  (I have tried!)  SJG certainly has its work cut out for it.
I am glad that you like the VtM setting, but I urge people who are
interested in Vampire not to discount it solely on the basis of its rules.
Look at the enormous following AD&D has.  Its rules really bite, but it
is obviously doing something right.  Furthermore, White Wolf currently
out sells Steve Jackson Games, so once again, something must be getting
done right.  

>-james

Thanks for your responce to my post.  You made some good points and
asside from the 'politically correct' thing weren't insulting.  ;)

No One Of Importance

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