From: elise@ticipa.pac.sc.ti.com (Elise Wade)
Subject: Re: Rewards (Was: Re: Mischievous Child (3 YO))
Organization: Texas Instruments
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 18:26:30 GMT

In article <4310184@hpcc01.corp.hp.com> poon@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Vivienne Poon) writes:
>/ hpcc01:misc.kids / elise@ticipa.pac.sc.ti.com (Elise Wade) / 12:38 pm  Aug 13, 1992 /
>
>Let's analyse this particular case here.
>
>>
>>>
>>> [ stuff in Vivienne and Judy's appends deleted ...] 
>> 
>> I also find your use of candy inconsistent.  On the one hand you say
>> its something "off limits" on the other you say you`ve used it as a
>> reward because Brit likes it so much.  I'm sure Brit find this attitude
>> confusing.  You need to decide what you will use for rewards.
>>
>> You also need to develop the concept of irregular rewards.  When Sabrina
>> asks for things (sometimes as a reward, sometimes because she wants them)
>> I generally pay close attention to what she wants, & then tell her
>> "Maybe, we'll see -- sometime."  Then SOMETIMES I DO.  About 1 time out of
>> 8 - 30 requests.  It makes for a lot of asking, but once Sabrina is 
>> convinced I've got the information, she moves on to the next topic.
>
>First I want to state that I do not use candy as a reward, I won't say never,
>but I deliberary remind myself not to do it. Candy and reward are separate
>issues. I said I allow candy in the house occationally. Sometimes after
>dinner they can have it as dessert or sometimes they have it simply because
>they ask and when it is not near any meal time. But I do try not to associate
>candy with reward.

OK.  I misunderstood about the candy.  But, your description *still*
sounds like you aren't using a reward system effectively.

>
>> Ok.  I think getting the sisters to work together is a good move.  However,
>> I bet Brit cannot resist hoaxing her "very good" and "very smart" (the
>> qualities you seem to see in Kina) and very serious (I suspect) big
>> sister.  You owe it to your older daughter to help her develop some
>> coping skills with this sort of situation.  A personality like you describe
>> for Kina will probably just attract all sorts of practical joker types.
>>
>> So step number 1.  Ask Kina if she's told Brit of her complaint (probably
>> not) nicely before yelling for you -- Kina needs to complain to Brit first.  
>> If Brit continues taking advantage & not helping then Kina needs to tell Brit 
>> she *will help* but she won't do even *most* of the work & Kina should 
>> *stop* helping.
>>
>> Basically, I think you stepped in *way* too soon.
>
>Step 1 is a good point. I'll remember to try it next time something similar
>happens. You are absolutely right about Kina. (How come misc.kids parenets
>are so smart?) I fully aware the weakness in her personality. She was born
>that way, I found in the past showing her how to handle situations did not
>change her much. If she attracts joks, she will have to learn to deal with
>them. Somebody just has to learn it the tough way.
>
>But in this case, I really don't think Kina was in the position to give her
>sister a lecture. After all it wasn't the conflict between them two. She
>was just a third party being called in to help. I would not insist she
>argue with her sister, because I didn't want to manually create sibling
>rivalry. I was my suggestion to get her involved. If it didn't work out
>it was my duty to revise my strategy to get the work done instead of
>creating new conflicts. That's why I decided to step in, I had to nail
>her myself.

Right, you shouldn't create more sibling rivalry than exists.   What I'm
trying to say is that Kina should have a set of behaviours to try when
her sister is teasing her that will allow her to extract herself from 
these situations without calling for you every time.  Perhaps telling
Kina alone, privately after an incident will be better.  I suspect that
every time Kina goes to you for help that encourages Brit to do it again.

>
>> Why did you offer to help so easily?  I'd restate that the leggos are
>> Brit`s problem.  Let her ask you for help.  Establishing a sense of
>> responsibility for the task is probably one of the most useful things
>> you can do to get Brit to do things like this.
>
>She did. "Oh, I'm too tired, I need help." was one of her excuses. That's
>why I suggested Kina because I was busy making lunch.
> 
>> Why do you let her get away with this?  You are the adult, you should
>> be in control here.  Why don't you say, "No, first you pick up those 
>> red ones right there!"  Or even, "well let me know if you want help 
>> picking up these leggos", and then walk away.  Or maybe you can say,
>> "What is it you forgot? ... "Well, if you want me to help you that 
>> will just have to wait until we're done."   Come on, you cannot allow
>> a 3 year old to out think you!  What will you do when she's a teenager?
>
>I didn't. I apologize to the net if you think I decieve you. I only presented
>part of the story because I was illustrating how tactical she could be.
>
>I sat there for one minute to give her chance. Then I jumped up, found her
>and carried her to where we were. I had her picked up everyone of them and
>put the bucket back to the shelf. This time I didn't lift a figer and she
>didn't protest because she knew that I truely meant business.
>

Ok, good.  Its hard to tell whats going on from net posts sometimes because
you do have to edit.

>>>When incidences like this happen multiple times a day, I am not amused.
>>>
>>
>> Too bad, a sense of humor about this stuff is very helpful in keeping 
>> your sanity & sense of perspective in place.
>
>I'll say once or twice you would think she was cute and smart. There were
>three incidences in this manner happened back to back in the same afternoon.
>While I agree with what you say, I would not encourage this kind of behavior.

Oh no, I don't say you should let them see you think a teasing incident is
funny & showing you're annoyed at behavior (with *plenty* of warning before
you explode) is a powerful weapon.  I meant that seeing the humorous side
is a help in maintaining patience and sanity.  Taking everything *too*
seriously just makes things more difficult.

>
>> I always associate a spat of limit  testing incidences	
>> with (a) Sabrina is extra tired, sick or growing, or (b) Sabrina is going
>> through a cognitive development spurt. (Read that she though of a whole
>> bunch of *new* things to try.)
>
>You are talking about difficulties with reasonable explanation. I am 
>talking about a child who enjoys being disagreeable, ahead of you all
>time and playing tricks for fun.
>

Well, I suspect that there is a reasonable explaination -- Brit finds it
*fun* to be as you put it, disagreeable.  It must be something in the way
you (& your family) are reacting that causes the feedback.  Probably little
things that might be obvious to an impartial observer, but which you are
missing. (Thus all the recommendations for therapy and counceling.)

Sabrina does the "tricks for fun" but I can tell (& most people can, I
think) that she is teasing.  She wants someone to appreciate her jokes
occasionally too.  Sometimes acknowleging the joke and having a bit
of fun (though she still doesn't get away with the behavior) brings
quite a bit of relief. But, I would say three such incidents in one 
afternoon is about a normal rate.  When I say spate, I mean *every* 
interaction for a period of time is limit-testing.  (Whew.)  

Maybe this is somewhat easier for me to deal with because Sabrina has
got pretty much an exact copy of her daddy's personality.  I get along
well with him too.  (Though, of course the *issues* with a spouse are
different :) ).
>> [ stuff about school ..]
>It is a Montessori school. Thanks for bringing up the point. I'll keep
>my eyes open.
>
>> Elise.
>----------
>
>Vivienne 
>
>

Elise.