HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mmdh@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (Mazen Mokhtar)
Subject: Re: Al-Baqarah #143
Organization: AT&T
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 17:08:41 GMT

In article <1993Jan11.033717.19441@trl.oz.au> a.Faris@trl.oz.au  writes:

>How do we prove that there was a book other than the ones in existance today?.

  We can't. You just asked me about the position of Islam and I stated it.
Without the existence of the books, the most we can do is rely on the accounts
which say that Jesus (PBUH) was given a book as part of the message he was
charged with delivering, and that is very far from a proof.

>Original sin existed in Judaism around 800 BC. Read the story of Genesis.
>Infact according to genesis, man was created about 4000 BC and that is when
>sin came into existance.

  The concept of original sin described in the OT is a concept with which
Islam has no problem, namely that Adam sinned, that humans commit sins and
that people are responsible for their own deeds. The concept which Islam
finds unjust is the idea that people inherited Adam's sin. This is an
idea which only Christians advocate.

>The concept of Hell, Heaven, and devil came into existance about 400 A.D.

  This is incorrect. These concepts existed at least as early as the beginning
of recorded history.


Mazen Mokhtar

Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
From: carasso@Turing.ORG (Roger Carasso)
Subject: Re: JORDAN IS THE PALESTINIAN STATE
Organization: The Turing Project, Public Access Internet Host
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 05:43:52 GMT

ephg8398@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Elizabeth Panzer Hess) writes:
>carasso@Turing.ORG (Roger Carasso) writes:
>
>>1. Jordan is in Palestine.
>Be realistic

By most interpretation, Jordan is part of palestine.  It's not really
clear who should have the authority to say what they think palestine's
borders are.  The British, who were the last power to control the area
before independence, defined palestine as the area of Israel and
Jordan.

>>3. Over Half of Jordan's Cabinet ministers are Palestinian.
>>4. Over half of Jordan's population is Palestinian, 3/4th in Amman.

I'm sorry I didn't make that clear.  I'll reword it:

3. Over Half of Jordan's Cabinet ministers are from Western Palestine.
4. Over half of Jordan's population from Western Palestinian, 3/4th in Amman.


>What do you understad from the fact that Palestine is Jordan,
>the arabs wants their Jordan 'Palestine' back from Israel.

I understand that people who lived on a land and lost it would want it
back, but...

The point of my post was to show that jordan is part of palestine.  If
this is accepted, a compromise with palestinians seems much easier to
obtain.  They could have land in palestine (by living in Jordan), and
those that did not properly receive compensation for property lost in
Israel, could simply be correctly compensated.*

I'm trying to be reasonable,  I wish others would too.


Roger

[* - By U.N. figures, Jews who had to leave Arab countries upon
Israel's Independence lost land worth 4 times as much as the land
Palestinian lost in leaving Israel].

...
From: spinoza@next06wor.wam.umd.edu (Yon Bonnie Laird of Cairn Robbing)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: ERETZ YISRAEL (was Re: deportation)
Date: 12 Jan 93 21:12:59 GMT

In article <1993Jan12.161126.203456@uctvax.uct.ac.za>  
naturman@uctvax.uct.ac.za writes:
> In article <1993Jan12.013621.26278@trl.oz.au>, faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU  
(Aziz Faris) writes:
> > In article <1is34uINNg4b@pita.cs.huji.ac.il>,  
aplebaum@irs01.cs.huji.ac.il (Hillel Applebaum) writes:
> > |> 
> > |> in short, Mr. Aziz, what archaeology books do you read ?
> > 
> > The old Testament.
> 
> In order to work out the correct history of Israel one has to look at
> archeological information and acceptable historical documents. The  
Torah, the
> book of Joshua and the book of Judges cannot be taken as history. They  
are
> legends which play an important part in Jewish culture. Although some
> Jews believe that these books are history, many do not.
> 
> Furthermore, if we must reject these books, then we must also reject the
> Palestinian historical revisionism which is based on distorting the  
contents of
> these books to produce new myths which never existed before this century  
and
> which disagree with the archeolgical evidence.
> 
Except for one minor point: there are other options besides accept/reject.  
One can make use of the legends in conjunction with avaiable historical  
documents and archaeological evidence. While I wouldn't want necessarily  
to reach any conclusions about society in biblical times, the legends  
might be a good place to begin research on the subject.




shalom

jeff skorecki-weiss
university of maryland, college park
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
From: najem@cs.uiuc.edu (Ziad H. Najem)
Subject: Re: Gulf war aftermath..
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 03:25:45 GMT

ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira) writes:

> If you are still wondering why many Arabs did not sympathize with
> the Kuwaiti ruling family, maybe this article will not convince, but
> I will try 

> 	MADRID (UPI) -- ... [news report deleted]


Ok. Now would you please try to expain why many arabs did not
sympathize with the Kuwaiti citizens. Remember that the ruling family
is less that 1/500 of the total population. Were 499 citizens punished
for the sake of one ruling family member ? 

Eagrly waiting,

 - Ziad
   najem@cs.uiuc.edu
Xref: sparky soc.culture.arabic:6336 talk.politics.mideast:24948 soc.culture.jewish:24723
From: jars@carson.u.washington.edu (Juan Rodriguez-Sero)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Name of Palestinian Deportees (part i)
Date: 7 Jan 1993 17:32:53 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
NNTP-Posting-Host: carson.u.washington.edu

In article <EGGERTJ.93Jan6232956@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu> eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu writes:
>In article <1993Jan6.222732.11871@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>>   "Occupied their territory"?  Unlike Egypt and Lebanon, say, there has
>>   never in history been a Palestinean empire, kingdom, country or state.
>
>The same can be said of Massachusetts.  It is not a terribly
>enlightening statement.

That only shows your ignorance; "Massachusetts" is our transliteration
of a very honorable Native American name.  We invaders wiped out that
Native American nation completely, but their name endures.  There was
a real and honorable nation and land by that name; that you don't know
it doesn't make it any less so.




Juan Antonio Rodriguez-Sero     | They who can give up essential liberty
School of Oceanography          | to obtain temporary safety 
University of Washington, WB-10 | deserve neither liberty nor safety. 
Seattle, WA 98195               | 
jars@u.washington.edu           |
(206) 543 - 7003 (work)         |      Benjamin Franklin
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
From: ahmed@dsg.cs.tcd.ie (Ahmed El-Habbash)
Subject: Re: He's finally arrived
Organization: DSG, Dept. of Computer Science, Trinity College Dublin
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 10:43:08 GMT

In <1993Jan6.232941.18108@trl.oz.au> faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris) writes:

>I would like to announce the birth of our baby boy and thank those who
>contributed to the name way back then. My wife gave birth to a 3.75 Kg
>(8 Lb, 3 Oz) and 52 cm (20.5 in) boy via C-section on 4th of January 1993.

>A.Faris

I hope this is not a debate!!

First, congratulation, and I hope he (the boy) will be on the right path in
his life.

Second, we also had a baby girl on the morning of the 30th of December, 1992.
She was 3.84 Kg and it was a normal delivery, Alhamdulillah. We named
her Sarah, and I hope Inshallah, she will be on the right path in her 
life.
Ahmed.
-- 
Ahmed I. El-Habbash, 
Department of Computer Science, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland.
Tel: office: +353-1-7021524,  Home: +353-1-937402.
	
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
From: mmdh@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (Mazen Mokhtar)
Subject: Re: A question concerning the word Zakat.
Organization: AT&T
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 16:21:33 GMT

In article <1993Jan11.173358.20732@kth.se> d89-gsk@nada.kth.se (Gani Skepi) writes:
>Assalamu Aliekum....

Wa `alaykum ussalamu wa raHmatullahi wa barakatuh,

[Gani is posting a question on behalf of a friend:]

>  I am curious about a point of etymology.  The Arabic term for
>  contributions to the poor ('charity' is a European term which
>  has too many inappropriate connotations and lacks the sense
>  of obligation) is 'zakah', and the direct Hebrew equivalent
>  is 'tzadekah', from the root 'tzedek' = 'justice'.

  Unfortunately, my Hebrew is still not good enough for me to be sure
about the origin of the Hebrew word, but I think that "tzadekah" is not
at all the Hebrew equivalent to "zakah." The root word from "zakah" is "zka"
not "zdk", and it starts with a "zayn" not a "saad" (the Arabic
equivalent of the Hebrew "tzade") also, the "zakah" uses the "kaf"
letter while the Hebrew uses the "qof" letter (which is the Hebrew
equivalent to the Arabic "qaf".)

  In short, the two words are completely different despite the similarity. They
share no letters in common.

>  Does the Arabic term have a separate etymology, a parallel etymology,
>  or is it unrelated to other Arabic words?

  The Hebrew word has a root "tz d q" which means to be just, to be in the
right. From it we get "tzedek" (justice, honesty) and "tzdakah" (truth,
benevolence.) The root "S d q" in arabic means to be truthful. From it we
get "Sadiq" (a truthful person) and "Sidq" (truthfullness.) I think that this
is the correct Arabic equivalent which you were seeking.

> One conjectural
>  possibility is that Arabic lacked an appropriate term in
>  Mohammed's time, so the term was coined for the purpose.

  The Arabic word "zakah" has a known etymology. Its root is "zka" which means
to grow, to increase, to complete, to purify, to render something good or
wholesome. The word zakah was chosen because zakah purifies the wealth and
makes it good by giving the needy the part of it which God (SWT) mandated.
Before payig zakah, a person's wealth is mixed with money owed to the less 
fortunate.

  The Hebrew equivalent is probably "zakhiyah" (justice, merit) which we
get from "zakay" (guiltless, righteous). This is my educated guess, but I
have no evidence for it.


Assalamu `alaykum Gani,

Mazen Mokhtar
Xref: sparky soc.culture.arabic:6489 talk.politics.mideast:25176 soc.culture.jewish:25031
From: eggertj@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Name of Palestinian Deportees (part i)
Date: 12 Jan 93 03:19:43 GMT
	<EGGERTJ.93Jan6232956@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu>
	<1993Jan11.233735.3920@bony1.bony.com>
Reply-To: eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu
Organization: MIT Lincoln Lab - Group 41

In article <1993Jan11.233735.3920@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>   The Palestineans are calling for the establishment of a "Homeland" for
>   themselves in exactly the same plot of land that someone else already
>   has a homeland.

The same can be said of the pre-1948 Zionists.

>   However, the Palestineans have no historical, legal,
>   political or cultural justification for this "homeland" that they
>   propose be excised from the Jewish state.

Historical:  Palestinians have been there for centuries.

Legal:  They owned the land they were/are being expelled from.

Political:  There has been a political entity called Palestine for millenia.
(I guess that counts for both historical and political.)

Cultural: The Palestinians (Christians and Muslims) consider Jerusalem
to be one of their most holy cities.  Other holy sites are to be found
in the West Bank.

If you don't see any of these simple facts, you will likely never
understand the Middle Eastern conflict between Arab and Jew.
--
=Jim  eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
From: najem@cs.uiuc.edu (Ziad H. Najem)
Subject: Re: Gulf war aftermath..
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 16:08:16 GMT

ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira) writes:

>In article <C0KHIx.BHF@cs.uiuc.edu> najem@cs.uiuc.edu (Ziad H. Najem) writes:
>>ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira) writes:
>>
>>> If you are still wondering why many Arabs did not sympathize with
>>> the Kuwaiti ruling family, maybe this article will not convince, but
>>> I will try 
>>
>>> 	MADRID (UPI) -- ... [news report deleted]
>>
>>
>>Ok. Now would you please try to expain why many arabs did not
>>sympathize with the Kuwaiti citizens. Remember that the ruling family
>>is less that 1/500 of the total population. Were 499 citizens punished
>>for the sake of one ruling family member ? 
>>
>>Eagrly waiting,

>I asked the same questions about the 200,000 Iraqi citizenswho died as
>a result of Saddam's adventures, and the answer was " they should have 
>overthrown Saddam", well some Iraqis did try but they were slaughtered
>by Saddam's Republican guards (who were preserved by the U.S just for that
>purpose) while the world watched..

Are you sure about the number above ? This is just a side question, I
don't think numbers are significant here: A single human life is as
precious as a 100. 

>It seems that the Citizens of a country are always blamed for the situation
>in their country whether or not they are directly responsible for it.

>> - Ziad
>>   najem@cs.uiuc.edu

> [ ... Ilyess Bdira's signature should be here ... ]

While I might I agree with your last conclusion, I still don't
understand what sitution were the Kuwaities blamed and/or responsible
of. In Iraq's case, the effect of Saddam's actions when beyond Iraq's
borders:

 - Eight years of war with Iran which, in my opinion played a direct
   role in the extremest turn in Iran.

 - Invasion of Kuwait. 

 - Environmental disasters during the above two "adventures". 

No matter what the Kuwaitis and their rulers did, I don't think it
went beyond their borders to any magnitude comparable to Iraq's case. 

 - Ziad
   najem@cs.uiuc.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic,talk.politics.mideast
From: faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris)
Subject: Re: Al-Baqarah #143
Reply-To: a.Faris@trl.oz.au 
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne,Australia
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 01:12:10 GMT

In article <1993Jan7.214324.21984@cbfsb.cb.att.com>, mmdh@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (Mazen Mokhtar) writes:
|> 
|>   Yes, I do and in a major way. I also believe that the entire Injeel, the
|> book sent to Jesus (PBUH) has been lost. None of the books of the NT speak
|> with God in the first person, or even with Jesus in the first person. They
|> are all accounts or letters which refer to Jesus and his message.

What leads you to beleive that Jesus' version was lost?. Also what are the
contents of that book?.

|> 
|>   There is no change in mind. The concept of original sin is unjust, and is
|> a fabrication. How can I be guilty of my father's disobedience? Especially
|> if my father was forgiven. The concept of redemption is also unjust. How can
|> one person be punished for another person's sin? Would any fair court in
|> the world punish me instead of a criminal if I volunteer? Would this absolve
|> the criminal in any way? Finally, there is nothing in the NT which implies
|> that Jesus taught that he is to be sacrificed for the sins of others.

If original sin is a fabrication, how is it that God has sent a number of
prophets before Jesus and Muhammad such as Adam, Noah, Abraham, and many
others, and none attempted to clear that fabrication. It sounds that there
is a conspiracy, why such a conspiracy?.

I totally agree with the Islamic concept that every one is responsible for
himself. However, why did God let many generations be lost?.

|> 
|>   The difficulty I find is that redemption does not cover those who came
|> before Jesus (PBUH), so it appears that righteousness was the path to
|> paradise before Jesus (PBUH). Why the fundamental change?

That is what I find very difficult to answer. Does Islam have an answer for
that change?.

|> 
|>   No problem, I didn't take offense. God never changes His mind, but people
|> do. God has no son, no partner and no kin. He is one, not a trinity. Islam
|> rejects the idea that God sacrificed His son as a great insult against
|> God. The idea of God in human form is appealing to many. The idea of redemption
|> without hard work is appealing to even more people. It is the duty of the
|> righteous to work hard, to strive to be good, to reflect, to reason and to
|> seek Guidance.

Now if God has no son as Islam teaches, then according to Islamic law
Christians are just as bad as pagans. Why is it that Muhammad had regards
for them as the people of the book?. One can argue that he means the book that
was lost perhaps. However, those Christians were not following that book and
thus were pagans. The Jews were in a similar position. It seems that there
is contradiction that makes a person go philosophically into a circle.

A.Faris
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
From: hossein@unocss.unomaha.edu (Hossein Saiedian)
Subject: Need to talk to someone from Dubai, UAE
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 19:28:38 GMT

  
Greetings!

I urgently need to talk to someone from Dubai, UAE,
who is reasonably familiar with the city. 

If there is anyone out there from Duabi, please send
me your telephone number, or communicate with me via
e-mail so that I send my phone numbers.

Reagrds,
Hossein

Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic,talk.politics.mideast
From: ifaz706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: WHERE DO THE "palestinians" COME FROM?
Organization: University of Texas @ Austin
Date: 8 Jan 93 15:31:51 CST

In article <1993Jan8.161554.21411@ncsu.edu>, hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem) writes:
> 
> In article <1993Jan7.194335.20578@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>,
> carasso@Turing.ORG (Roger Carasso) writes:
>> 
>> ARAB MILITARY ACQUISITIONS (RAW MILITARY HARDWARE) FROM 1973-1988:
>> 
>> 	$154 BILLION
>> 
>> 	(syria 22B, iraq 48b+, jordan 5.4b, kuwait 4b, libya 25b,
>> 	saudi arabic 34b, morocco 2.4b, oman 1.3b, uae 3.5b, egypt 10.8b)
>> 
>> IF YOU THINK ISRAEL CAN KEEP UP WITH THAT YOU ARE CRAZY.
>> 
>> ISRAEL SURVIVES FOR TWO REASONS:
>> 
>> 	1. IT'S TROOPS ARE BETTER TRAINED AND SMARTER.
>> 	2. DEFENSIVE WARS ARE EASIER TO FIGHT.*
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> carasso.
>> 
>> *yes all its wars were pre-emptive defensive strikes except 1973.
> 
> Hmm, let's see......
> 
> 10 countries....
> 
> 15 years...
> 
> 154 $billion...
> 
> That's about $1 billion per country per year. Please compare with Israel
> which receives over $2 billion annually in military aid from the U.S.
> Please also note that most of the countries which you mention have far
> more people than Israel and far more land area.


	Precisely the problem Brad. Since Israel has to face 
	(or to consider the possibility of having to face) all
	of these armies, the only meaningful comparison is 
	against their total military expenditures. That these
	expenditures can be distributed among many countries
	and among many poeple in each country is a clear
	testimony to the hugh burden that ISrael and its citizens 
	have to carry. It also makes obvious Israel's need for
	U.S. support.

	Thanks for clarifying things for us.



Noam

> 
> Brad "Ali" Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)
> 
> 
> p.s. It is still a big waste of money. I would rather that my country
> did its part and stopped fueling these military machines.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
From: jle@locus.com (John Elghani)
Subject: Re: WHERE DO THE "Palestinians" COME FROM?
Organization: Locus Computing Corp, Los Angeles
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 93 03:50:43 GMT

>In article <240@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP>, ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP (Tsiel Ohayon) writes:
> Uh oh, another intellectual Arab woman on the net.After Anisa, we have Rita.
> Any relationship to the famous Israeli singer :-)?

Tsiel Ohayon, you stun me sometimes.  Why do you think less of our
woman.   Enough of your stereotyping crap.  Our women are as
normal as any other women in the world if not better.  At least
they have the tendency to deal with our sh*tty cultural actions
that Islam tends to fight.

jle

Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
From: faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris)
Subject: Re: ERETZ YISRAEL (was Re: deportation)
Reply-To: a.Faris@trl.oz.au 
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne,Australia
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 21:49:30 GMT

In article <1993Jan7.200556.21472@ennews.eas.asu.edu>, makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:
|> 
|> # You are very wrong Mr. Applebaum, the Palestinians are direct decendants of
|> # the Canaanites and they were definately there first. Offcourse, you do not
|> # beleive in Archaeology and prefer to beleive the Bible and all its wonderful
|> # promises. You have enough propaganda and guns to make many people beleive
|> # that while victimising an entire Palestinian population as in the past.
|> 
|> 	Gee, Faris, I wish I could get my history out of a Cracker Jack
|> box also.

Gee, I thought you already do so, how else do you and your coleagues have no
basis for those empty arguements.

A.Faris
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: JORDAN IS THE PALESTINIAN STATE
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 21:44:26 GMT

Since the only thing that distinguishes Palestinian Arabs from other
Arabs is their living in Palestine, and Jordan is part of Palestine,
by definition all Jordanians are Palestinian.  That includes the
Hashemites, who recently came as foreign rulers.
-- 
Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
From: carasso@Turing.ORG (Roger Carasso)
Subject: Re: WHERE DO THE "palestinians" COME FROM?
Organization: The Turing Project, Public Access Internet Host
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 18:30:31 GMT

hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem) writes:
>> 
>> ARAB MILITARY ACQUISITIONS (RAW MILITARY HARDWARE) FROM 1973-1988:
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> 	$154 BILLION
>
>That's about $1 billion per country per year. Please compare with Israel
>which receives over $2 billion annually in military aid from the U.S.

You are comparing apples to oranges.  The Arabs *BUY* that much new
hardware.  You're comapring that to a number for aid for Israels
overall military budgets, including troops, uniforms, etc that kind of
stuff.  

Further your facts are wrong, after loan repayments are made, the U.S.
only actually gives Israel 0.3 Billion per year.

>p.s. It is still a big waste of money. I would rather that my country
>did its part and stopped fueling these military machines.

It's not a big waste of money:  $1.25 per year you personally spend.
What a cheap bastard.

carasso.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: ERETZ YISRAEL (was Re: deportation)
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 21:40:06 GMT

aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:

>This is obviously going nowhere.  You stubbornly refuse to recognize
>that there was a land named Palestine, and people named Palestinians.

You are correct in that there was a land, although not a country,
called Palestine.  Previously, it was called Canaan, and then Israel,
and Judea and Samaria, before being renamed by the Romans as part of
their de-Judaization program.

Presently, part of it is once again called Israel, while most of it is
called Jordan.

There also have been people called Palestinians.  In the early part of
this century, they were Jews living in what was then called Palestine.
More recently, the Arabs living there have taken to calling themselves
Palestinians.
-- 
Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org