From: black@che.serum.kodak.com (Robert Black (x37236))
Subject: Re: baboon heart recipient
Organization: Clinical Products Division, Eastman Kodak Company
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 21:03:19 GMT

In article <1992Sep29.061244.6407@homespac.uucp> joshua@homespac.uucp (Joshua Levy) writes:
>mhollowa@csws8.ic.sunysb.edu (Michael Holloway) writes:
>>Animal "rights" means just that.  That animals have rights every bit the 
>>equal of yours or mine.  There's no wiggle room there.
>
>black@che.serum.kodak.com (Robert Black (x37236)) replied:
>>Please give some specific examples.  For starters, what animal rights
>>individual or organization has ever said that animals have or should
>>have the right to vote in the upcoming presidential election?
>
>I can give you a specific example of an animal rights person saying that
>animals have the same rights as people:
>
>``there is no rational basis for saying that a human being has
>  special rights.  A rat is a pig is a dog is a boy.  They're all mammals.''
>  Ingrid Newkirk founder PETA: (people for the ethical treatment of aminals)
>  In Vogue Sept. 1989

When you can find a quote that has Ingrid calling for the right to vote
for animals, then I'll take seriously the claim that she supports the
SAME IDENTICAL rights for animals as for humans.  But let's not hold our
breath on it, okay?  Let's all stop kidding ourselves on this.  Ingrid
Newkirk does not believe in the SAME rights for human and nonhuman
animals.  Any quotes that hint at it are either taken out of context or
careless wording on her part, something we're all guilty of from time to
time. 

>
>Here are some related quotes:
>
>``To believe in and work for our oppressed and exploited brothers
>  and sisters in fur and feather and fin commits animal rights 
>  activists to believing in and working for our oppressed brothers 
>  and sisters in human flesh.''
>  Francione and Regan in THE ANIMAL's AGENDA Jan/Feb 1992

What's the big deal here.  Regan is just saying that true animal rights
activists are also supporters of human rights. 

>
>Regan was asked which he would save, a dog or a baby, if a boat 
>capsized in the ocean.  His reply: ``If it were a retarded baby and 
>a bright dog, I'd save the dog.''
>Tom Regan - Author in the animal rights movement
>at UWisc-Madison Oct. 1989

These statements remind me of the childhood games we used to play.
If your mother and father were drowning and you could only save one,
which would it be?  Or in our neighborhood: if Bill and Tom were both
drowning, which would you save?  And of course Bill and Tom were both
there listening, so the trick was to come up with some diplomatic
answer that didn't insult either.

But occasionally I have found myself thinking: in this situation, which
would I save - one of my affectionate loving devoted loyal shepherds or
the despicable killer Saddam Hussein? I'll let you guess my answer.  The
point is that there is not a strong logical reason why we should make
such judgments SOLELY on the basis of membership in a biological group
and for no other reason whatsever.  Certainly most of the time, we all
favor our own kind.  But there are mitigating circumstances which tend
to rule out a specific universal rule. 

>
>``We feel that animals have the same rights as a retarded human child''.
>Alex Pacheco - chairman of PETA in the New York Times Jan. 1989

In what context did he say this?

>``We are here to represent the most oppressed minority in the history
>of the world.''
>George Cave - President of ARM! (formally trans-species, unlimited) 
>June 1990

Can you prove that this is a false statement?

>
>Obviously, there are lots of "animal rights" people, and they don't all
>believe the same thing, but some of them are on record as saying that
>animals and people have similar, if not identical, rights to humans.

Similar?  Yes I agree with you.  Identical?  Somewhere there may be a 
few people who believe this, but I haven't found any claims of it that
withstand close scrutiny. 

>
>Joshua Levy at home: joshua@homespace.mtview.ca.us 

---
Robert Black 
black@serum.kodak.com  - The ONLY email address that MIGHT work.
These views are not necessarily the views of my employers.
Newsgroups: sci.med