HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dingebre@imp.sim.es.com (David Ingebretsen)
Subject: Re: aga in 500/2000/3000?
Followup-To: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Reply-To: dingebre@imp.sim.es.com (David Ingebretsen)
Organization: Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp., Salt Lake City, UT
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 18:19:03 GMT

In article <35077@cbmvax.commodore.com>, spence@cbmvax.commodore.com (Spencer Shanson) writes:
> In article <1992Sep12.4509.20766@dosgate> "robert buonincontro" <robert.buonincontro@canrem.com> writes:
> >
> > Now that the Amiga 4000 has been officially announced and the AGA 
> >custom chips has been officially announced. Can anyone from Commodore
> >confirm if the AGA chipset will be offered for the Amiga 3000 and if it
> >will work in the Amiga 500/600/2000 systems!
> 
> OK - I will answer this question just once.
> 
> The AA (or AGA as it is now known) chip set is NOT pin compatible with ECS or
> the original chip set. In other words, you CANNOT just plug AGA into an
> A3000/2000/500/600 or 1000. AGA requires a whole new motherboard.
> 
> A motherboard upgrade is a marketing decision, and I cannot answer for them,
> because I don't know if such an offer is planned.
> 
deleted...

> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Spencer Shanson - Amiga Software Engineer     | email: spence@commodore.COM
>                                               | or uunet!cbmvax!spence

Thank you Spencer, even if a bit terse. 

I think I can articulate my frustration now. I powered up to a 3000 because
I had heard words like "32 data bus to chip ram", "32 bit Zorro III bus",
etc. I guess I hoped that CBM engineering was anticipating some sort of future
chip enhancements and were trying to build in some sort of compatibility.
However, I do understand that not all thing can be forseen and that there are
more important issues than maintaining downward compatibility forever. Let's
hope for an upgrade deal or clever third party solutions.

On the other hand, WOWWWW! It really boosts my faith and confidence that
the Amiga is far from being a "dead" machine. It sounds like CBM has
definitely changed tack and is pushing ahead. Man, is my brother going
to drool when I show him the specs on the A4000.

THANK YOU CBM!

This machine can only help in maintaining current and future development
for the whole Amiga line.

FOLLOWUPS TO ADVOCACY
-- 
	David

	Disclaimer: The content of this message in no way reflects the
	            opinions of my employer, nor are my actions
		    encouraged, supported, or acknowledged by my
		    employer.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
From: eriks@ifi.uio.no (Erik Saastad)
Subject: Re: Amiga 3000 - Static Column RAM's
Organization: Dept. of Informatics, University of Oslo, Norway
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 08:05:13 GMT
Originator: eriks@holmenkollen.ifi.uio.no


In article <PyFqqB2w165w@blackhl.hacktic.nl>, pschaap@blackhl.hacktic.nl (Peter Schaap) writes:
> In response to those articles posted last week in this newsgroup
> concerning the use of static column mode ram in the Amiga 3000, I would
> like to mention the following: 
>  
> 1. Use those chips instead of page-mode RAM's. Running your A3000 in
>    in burst mode will make it MUCH faster.

I thought that (at least on the older 3000's) there was a bug in ramsey. This
bug does so that you will have no difference in performance with static or
page ram. Maybe this bug is corrected on newer 3000's ?

Erik S., Oslo, Norway
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
From: pfferrei@napier.uwaterloo.ca (Paul Ferreira)
Subject: Re: 1084 monitor problems.
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, University of Waterloo, Canada
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 02:17:39 GMT

In article <1992Sep6.231515.15326@mcshh.Hanse.DE> mb@mcshh.Hanse.DE (Michael Beer) writes:
>csc@amiganet.chi.il.us (Chris Clarizio) writes:
>
>>In article <Bu0n15.9Kn@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu>,
>>pfferrei@napier.uwaterloo.ca (Paul Ferreira) writes:
>>>
>>>I seem to recently be getting a problem with my 1084 monitor.  I believe
>>>it is a problem with all the monitors and can be fixed.  Every once in a 
>>>while the screen flickers off, but by tapping the monitor, the display can
>>>be returned.  It seems that there is some kind of short circuit occuring in
>>>the monitor because of some contact or arcing.  
>>>
>>>Does anyone know what I am talking about? How can I fix this?
>>>
>>>
>> [...]
>
>It's the flyback transformator. One of the four solder joints that fix it to
>the board is cracked. You have to resolder it (take care of the high voltage!).
>

How would I go about avoiding the high voltages.  What I mean is: "What high
voltage parts should I look out for?" 
I've never taken apart my monitor, so I don't know what to expect.

-Paul
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
From: burkert1@platon.fmi.uni-passau.de (Klaus Burkert)
Subject: Re: GVP-II & A2090
Organization: University of Passau, Germany
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 16:33:26 GMT

In article <xAyEr*m40@prolix.apana.org.au> dac@prolix.apana.org.au (Andrew Clayton) writes:
[...]
>I am using a GVP Series 2 with 200Mb Quantum Pro, as well as my
>original 2090a disk controller with 44Mb ST506 Rodime.
>
>I did try having three HD's running, but the system seemed to get
>flaky [too much power consumption with the accellerator card, two
>disk controllers and a dual serial boad], so I'm back to two.

Maybe you should take the power for the HDs straight from the power-supply
instead from the controllers...
My 2000 runs with A2630, GVP-II, 4 HDs, 1 Tape, 4 Disk-drives, a BB with VGA
and an Amiga-Gfx-card plus Flickerfixed and 2MB chipram without problems...
You see: a heavy loaded system...
When I took the power from the Filecard the machine went flaky too but 
this was fixed by using it direct from the supply.

Ciao, Klaus.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Klaus Burkert        email: burkert1@kirk.fmi.uni-passau.de
Brandweg 11          voice: +49-851/83993 (only pm please)
D-W-8390 Passau   /  Federal Republic of Germany
From: spence@cbmvax.commodore.com (Spencer Shanson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Subject: Re: AA Features
Date: 15 Sep 92 15:57:50 GMT
Organization: Commodore, West Chester, PA

Ooops. One little omission. Sprites can now be made to appear in the border
area, where video is normally disabled. This would allow, for example, the
sprite to remain visible when it crosses the interscreen gap.

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Spencer Shanson - Amiga Software Engineer     | email: spence@commodore.COM
                                              | or uunet!cbmvax!spence
All opinions expressed are my own, and do not | Bix: sshanson
(necessarily) represent those of Commodore.   | "Copper? I hardly even
                                              | know her!"
From: raymondu@terapin.com (Raymond Ulibarri)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Subject: Re: WHATS WRONG WITH THE SUPRA14.4?????
Date: 6 Sep 92 10:49:59 GMT
Organization: BBS


   I have the same problem with my SupraFAXModem's speaker.  Half the time it
doesn't work.  Haven't sent it back for replacement yet.  After all, I waited 2
months to get it after ordering -- and I couldn't bear being without it.


Raymond Ulibarri
Vice President
MultiCon
Multimedia Concepts
(510)261-1001
Xref: sparky comp.sys.amiga.hardware:14905 comp.sys.amiga.misc:13463
From: mlelstv@speckled.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de (Michael van Elst)
Subject: Re: Zorro <> CAMAC Bus interface needed
Keywords: Zorro, CAMAC, bus interface
Organization: Max-Planck-Institut f"ur Radioastronomie
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 23:52:04 GMT

In <13511@swrinde.nde.swri.edu> kent@swrinde.nde.swri.edu (Kent D. Polk) writes:
>Whyever not? I have a CAMAC crate with a couple of DSP technologies 200 MHz
>digitizers which can multiplex for an additional two channels at 100 MHZ
>each.

It surely does make sense if you have a CAMAC crate with some useful
equipment. But CAMAC is IMHO something antiquated :-) And an interface
requires more work than say the VME bus.

If you really need such an interface I can try to design one. But I won't
be able to actually build it..

Regards,
-- 
Michael van Elst
UUCP:     universe!local-cluster!milky-way!sol!earth!uunet!unido!mpirbn!p554mve
Internet: p554mve@mpirbn.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de
                                "A potential Snark may lurk in every tree."
From: Boinger@myamy.hacktic.nl (Paul Kolenbrander)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Subject: Re: Modem resets Amiga when shut off.
Date: 5 Sep 92 17:01:20 MET
Reply-To: boinger@myamy.hacktic.nl (Paul Kolenbrander)
Distribution: world
Organization: System Information 2.0 Development
X-NewsSoftware: GRn 1.16e (7/4/92) by Mike Schwartz & Michael B. Smith

In article <Zapper.0k8m@qube.OCUnix.On.Ca> Zapper@qube.OCUnix.On.Ca (Zapper) writes:
>   This isn't really a major problem, just a minor annoyance...
> 
>   Whenever I power cycle my modem, my Amiga (500) reboots. This is mildly
> annoying because I don't need to leave my modem on all the time, but I have
> to or else reboot.

Hmm. No such problems with my A2000 and SupraFaxModem. Hold on,
your A500 should have a earthed plug doesn't it? Have you also
plugged it in a earthed outlet? Your symptoms look like being
an earthing problem. Maybe the system isn't earthed properly and
there is a voltage on the earthing. (This also happens, and can
be quite destructive to equipment) 

CYa, Paul

-- 
Paul Kolenbrander  \ InterNet: boinger@myamy.hacktic.nl
Turfveldenstraat 37 \ Fido: 2:284/114.3 Paul Kolenbrander
NL-5632 XH EINDHOVEN | - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
Voice: +31-40-415752 | Timezone:GMT+1 | Fax: +31-40-426446 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
From: marnold@cwis.unomaha.edu (Matthew Eldon Arnold)
Subject: Re: Using ImageWriter II with Amiga 2000HD
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 01:57:04 GMT

> I used a Mac modem cable (din plug one end , 25 pin D the other) with the 
> din plug in the printer, and a null modem lead between the serial port and 
> the other end of the Mac modem lead.
> 
> I have had some problems printing graphics, but haven't looked into them.
> --
I went down to the local Amiga store and bought the Amiga Imagewriter II
printer cable -- plugs right into your serial port on your Amiga and that
round hole on the Imagewriter II.  (I later got myself a data switchbox
since I used the modem a bunch too!)

The Imagewriter dip switch setting are in the WB1.3 manual -- I set those
(although they don't appear to make a difference.)  Use the appropriate
driver from the Extras disk.  Then set preferences to use the appropriate
driver -- dont forget to tell it it's a serial printer!

Color graphics are flawless.  I got great output with Digi-Paint 3 and
Photon Paint.  Deluxe Paint 3 gave the BEST results.  I could even
print landscape orientations.

The problem: it's a serial printer!  Can't print and do the modem thing
simultaneously on my A500.  Know anybody that wants to buy an Imagewriter II?

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------///----
The best way to accelerate an IBM is 9.8 m/s/s          ///
marnold@cwis.unomaha.edu                            \\\///
-----------------------------------------------------\XX/-------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
From: grusin@tramp.Colorado.EDU (GRUSIN MICHAEL)
Subject: Re: Grapevine does something right
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 16:07:57 GMT


...The wierdest thing about the Grapevine instructions I got
(I ordered the same 1-meg Agnus upgrade; mine was in a 2000)
was that >NOWHERE< in the instructions did it say to TAKE OUT
THE OLD AGNUS AND PUT IN THE NEW AGNUS.....!!!!

IE, if I (or anyone else) had BLINDLY followed the instructions
(as anyone afraid of harming their machine might), at the end of
the installation, the machine would be safely put back together
BUT THE NEW AGNUS WOULD STILL BE IN IT'S PACKAGE...

(My installation DID go fine, despite that; and the fact that
the "PLCC chip puller (a necessity)" was GARBAGE- a standard
spring-clip DIP puller filed down on the ends.  I tried it a
few times, it didn't do anything except scratch up the old Agnus
pretty badly.  I finally used a bent-needle-nose pliers to pry
it out, worked great.)

-Mike (grusin@tramp.colorado.edu)
"I'm surrounded by idiots of my own design" -Joel, MST3000
From: daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Subject: Re: ALICE
Date: 15 Sep 92 16:22:48 GMT
Reply-To: daveh@cbmvax.commodore.com (Dave Haynie)
Organization: Commodore, West Chester, PA

In article <copes.716534234@marsh> copes@cs.curtin.edu.au (Simon Cope) writes:

>4 Megs of chip ram will blow ZorroII compatibility out the door.  

No, actually, it wouldn't.  We have this all worked out very nicely -- Zorro II
can't move but Chip RAM can and, when systems could out that support more than
2MB, will (though chances are it'll be shadowed down at $00000000 anyway, since
the OS needs memory there and it would enhance compatibility as long as that 
level of compatibility is a concern).

Alice doesn't support 4MB of Chip RAM, but obviously something will some day.
We worked the details quite some time ago to keep developers on the right track.

This has nothing to do with Zorro III.
-- 
Dave Haynie Commodore-Amiga (Cool Advanced High-End Systems You Can't See Yet)
 "The Crew That Never Rests"  {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!daveh   BIX: hazy
             "We're not hitchhiking anymore, we're riding" -Ren Hoek
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
From: vic@cd.com (Vic Serbe)
Subject: Re: GVP memory question...
Keywords: how?
Organization: Central Data Corp., Champaign, IL
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 18:31:32 GMT

In article <wNwLqB2w164w@cellar.org> swinokur@cellar.org (Steve Winokur) writes:
>bevis@en.ecn.purdue.edu (Jeff Bevis) writes:
>
>Well, on all GVP boards, the memory is 32-bits wide.  What simms you can use
>on the board depends on what board you buy.  The 40/4 can only use 4M simms,
>I believe.  The 25/1 can use either 1M or 4M simms.  I'm not sure whether
>you can mix or match.

I'm pretty sure the 25/1 can only use 4MB SIMMS to expand. It comes with
the first meg soldered on. That's why it can only go to a max of 13MB. 1MB
initially, plus up to 3 4MB SIMMs... 13MB. I have 5MB on mine (initial
1st meg plus 1 extra SIMM). It works GREAT.

>.............................................................................
>          tredysvr!cellar!swinokur -or- swinokur@cellar.uucp -or-
>                          GEnie: S.WINOKUR  -or-
>                  435 Norristown Road, Horsham PA, 19044
>..................... Amiga: Hey, at least it works! ........................

Vic Serbe	"Makers of the scsiTerminal Server"
Central Data scsiSupport | PH# (800) 482-0315 x237 |
vics@cd.com		 |     (217) 359-8010 x237 |
uunet!cendata!vics	 | FAX (217) 359-6904	   |
From: Gord_Pope@mindlink.bc.ca (Gord Pope)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Subject: Re: AdSpeed Info
Date: 11 Sep 92 14:29:04 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world

I have an ADSpeed.  It was originally installed in my A1000, now it's in my
A2000.  It seems to work as advertised.  The benchmark programs available as
actually do show about a twofold speed increase.  I bought it primarily for
speeding up my spreadsheets.  A recalc actually went more than two times as
fast so that pleased me.  The problem I had with it on the A1000 was that I
converted to 2.0 at the same time  (with a Kwickstart II) and the unit became
too unstable.  When I acquired the 2000,  I made the 1000 the 1.3 machine and
the 2000 the sped up 2.0 machine.  In summary, for the money it delivers the
added speed.  It's easy to install.  Overall the machine does run faster but
not everything runs twice as fast and not everything sees a speed improvement.
Gord.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
From: ericj@hwcae.Honeywell.COM (Eric Jacobsen)
Subject: Re: A3000 local bus
Organization: Honeywell, Air Transport Division; Phoenix, AZ
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 15:42:28 GMT

In article <AHANSFOR.92Sep11001120@wpi.wpi.edu> ahansfor@wpi.wpi.edu (Andrew L. Hansford) writes:

   Since CPU/local slot in the 3000 is based on the 030 bus, then all 040
   cards must adapt its bus to that standard, correct?

Ayup. The 040 bus is quite a bit different than the 030, and it is more
difficult to design stuff to work with it. Most 040 systems have a bunch
of high speed memory, etc., on the local 040 bus and then a generic bus
interface of some sort to connect the rest of the peripherals to (Zorro III,
030, whatever...)

   Now assuming that C= has not produced two different 040 cards, is the
   connector ("Kel from Hell'?) and bus in the A4000 the same as in the 3000?

   If so, a 030 card for lower end would be fairly easy without having
   bus translation to do.  Then, would it not be easier to make a EC030
   card for the lowest model computer than make an 020 card?

The 030 and 020 buses are basically the same. An EC030 would be a good
choice for a low end machine. I am continually amazed at C='s decisions
to continue putting 68000 cpus in new machines (A600, A2500, etc., etc.)
*Nobody* makes PCs with 8086s anymore, and there are *very* few 80286
machines being made anymore. C= continues to crank out 68000 machines,
though...

(Are there even any Macs with 68ks anymore?)
--
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
* Eric Jacobsen        Honeywell Inc.                           *
|     1-602-436-3941   Commercial Flight Systems, Air Transport |
* HVN       436-3941   US Mail: P.O. Box 21111, MS 2Q34C1       *
| FAX 1-602-436-1310   Phoenix AZ 85036-1111                    |
* INet: ericj@hwcae.honeywell.com                               *
| UUCP: uunet!hwcae.honeywell.com!ericj@uunet.uu.net            |
* The opinions expressed are my own and therefore better        *
| thought out than my employer's.                               |
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
From: ree88132@zach.fit.edu (Keith Ledig)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Subject: Re: A3000: Heating up?
Date: 15 Sep 92 12:03:58 GMT
Organization: Florida Institute of Technology, Melbourne USA

In article <NIX.92Sep11215452@zombie.oulu.fi> nix@stekt.oulu.fi writes:
>
>On 10 Sep 92 11:58:06 GMT,
>ree88132@zach.fit.edu (Keith Ledig) said:
>
>Keith> Yes the Power supply generates the most heat so you would want air to
>Keith> exit the case through it, but I don't think it contributes significantly,
>Keith> at least in the case of the desk-top PC.
>
>In my A3000 the hottest part seems to be a Quantum 425M hard disk.
>Actually the power suppy is quite cool, like the 105M LPS-Quantum.
>Related to this hot quantum, where is the best (where air flows best)
>place to put my disk in a A3000 case ?  There are three places where you
>can place the 3.5" devices..
>
>++Tero



I would highly recommend placing the drive where 3.5 HD were designed to
go in the 3000, namely right next to the power supply.  It seems that
the fan in the PS not only keeps the PS itself quite cool, but a HD 
adjacent to it as well.  Probably because of the metal case touching the
shielding conducts heat away in addition to the fact that air is passing
around the HD at a healthy rate.  Someone recommended not stacking
low profile HD's, but it couldn't have been for related to overheating.
They must have meant some vibration between the 2 could cause porblems.
I have heard of people doing it without a hitch.  Another way to mount
another HD (and I'm sure somebody mentioned this before) is to get a
bracket used for expansion cards and take advantage of one of your 
empty slots.  That's what I'll do for my next drive.  An unused floppy
bay makes a great alternative, but I could NEVER live off just 1 floppy.
Bad enough I need to make backups with 2 floppies, 1 would just make me
more miserable. :-(  and a 120 meg hd can run into lotsa floppies.
I wish they put a 5.25 bay somewhere, for tapes or syquests.  I guess
they wanted to keep the case small.


-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------      
Keith Ledig   ree88132@zach.fit.edu         [Tech-Forum BBS 407-722-4400]
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
From: pwappy@well.sf.ca.us (Jeff Walkup)
Subject: Re: SOLVED!!!! Reboot with 1.3 using SetCpu under 2.04
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 21:19:07 GMT


tope@enea.se (Tommy Petersson) writes:

> Just thought I'd mention that I added this last night.  It now KICKROMS
1.3
> and allows you to use your hard disk.  Any other Suggestions?

Yes, make it recognize and add the 3000's fastmem.
(I think you mentioned this, just want to make sure ;^)


cs90rol@brunel.ac.uk (Richard O Lavey) writes:

> If anyone knows of a way of putting a Kickstart 1.3 file from a floppy
> onto a hard disk , then could they also let me know !

If you are using an "A3000 SuperKickstart" disk, you can do this by
using the C= command "Makefiles".  This should be in Devs:, at least
it's there on my machine, which originally came with the 2.00 'boot roms'
The C= install script calls "Makefiles" to update the Kickstart file.
Usage goes a little like this:

  Makefiles dfx: 1.3|2.0 filename

so for your purposes, insert your Superkickstart disk in df0: and
type:

  Makefiles df0: 1.3 devs:kickstart

This'll put a 1.3 Kickstart file into devs:kickstart.
Then, to reboot under 1.3, type:

  SetCPU kickrom devs:kickstart

You will have to boot from a 1.3 floppy (for now) and use "addmem"
to resurrect your fastmem.  The 2.0 program "Tools/Showconfig" should
tell you the correct addresses to use with "addmem"  Once you've done
that, you might as well invoke:

  SetCPU fastrom

to move the 1.3 ROM image from chipmem into fastmem.
From: erd@kumiss.cmhnet.org (Ethan Dicks)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.hardware
Subject: Re:  HPIB(IEEE-488) and parallel
Distribution: world
Date: 5 Sep 92 00:39:57 EDT
Organization: Not an Organization

In article <Bu0F7w.4pt@news.cso.uiuc.edu> dvsg0223@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (David Salamon) writes:
>hillman@iastate.edu (Matthew C Hilleman) writes:
>
>>	Does anyone now how to run a HPIB port printer from
>>	a standard parallel printer port??
>>	Do I have to make a special cable or what??
>
>This is MUCH more involved than just a cable.  GPIB (also known as HPIB
>and IEEE-488) is a smart bus, not just a parallel port.

There was a company which made C= 8-bit peripherals, including an HPIB
port (since PET disks and printers use that bus).  The card was quite
simple - a ROM, a 6522 (a perphieral interface chip, somewhat similar
to the 8520 CIAs) and a 75LS series bi-directional HPIB buffer chip.
It is possible to just wire one of those 75xxx buffer chips right up
to the parallel port of the Amiga (it would hose the RI signal on the
serial port, but that's another problem) and to write lots of software
to drive it.  There is a company out there called A.D.I (in Huntington
Park, CA  213/581-1188) which manufactures a parallel port based HPIB
interface for $295.  It comes with drivers for AmigaBasic, C and
Assembler.  It claims to perform as a talker, listener and controller
for up to 14 devices.  I suspect that it is basically a bus tranceiver,
an HPIB connector and (possibly) one or two packages of TTL glue logic.

I got the above info about the AQ4882A from the Amazing Computing product
guide, Winter '92, p 129, listed under "Scientific Digitizers and
Controllers."  I have never used their product and can make no statements
as to its availability, suitability or functionality.

Caveat Emptor,
-ethan


--
Ethan Dicks     N8TVD ! This message is brought to you by the breakfast cereal
erd@kumiss.cmhnet.org ! of Pennsic Veterans everywhere: Beerios.
                      ! "They don't stay crisp in beer, but who cares?" 
Xref: sparky comp.sys.amiga.hardware:14961 comp.sys.amiga.misc:13529