From: khan@ces.cwru.edu (Mansoor Khan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: Good Bye Mr. Bush
Date: 7 Nov 1992 18:25:46 GMT
Organization: Computer Engineering and Science, Case Western Reserve University
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: king.ces.cwru.edu


Some important facts in response to Nadeem Jamali's response to ......

>In article <1dd590INN5p5@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> khan@ces.cwru.edu (Mansoor Khan) writes:
>>In response to Nadeem Jamali's letter;
>>
>>
>... (stuff deleted)


>>>>from South Africa. These guys will assign race to elements in periodic table.
>>>>One Mr. Altaf Qadir of the Land Down Under got scared that it may create 
>>>>trouble on the net. I dont think we should get sharmindah at discussing
>>>>the credentials of our future President Mr. Gauhar Ayub or one of our
>>>>future primeminister Mr. Shahnavaz Bhutto.  Their supporters should not
>>
>>>Man!!! are you for real :) I mean... do you have the reasoning devises that
>>
>>	Yes, honey! I am for real. 
>
>>>something, I'll pay you money.. buy a Lever2000 and release the tension :) :)
>>
>>	Why Lever2000? I prefer ............. :-) 				

>Damn these "Muhajir" Khans :) :)

Old habits die hard ! 

>>>>First,
>>> I'm not sure what Ta'asoob-shit means... as you might have gathered,
>	But, I guess you do! 
>I really don't know what it is. I'll really appreciate if someone could help.

Okay! ok!     ta'asoob( or asbiyat) means hatred/discrimination of
a community because of their race, language, color, religion etc.
 
>>Urdu is not my native language. Second, I must insist that Javed bhai has more
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>That is no problem , I will try to use more of Gulaabi Urdu in future.

>What ??
I meant that it is no problem that Urdu is not your native language.
And by Gulaabi Urdu, I meant easy Urdu. For years, the text books for
High School Urdu for people who chose Easy Urdu ( instead of Normal)
in Karachi,  had pink( Gulaabi) covers. Thus Gulabi Urdu means Easy Urdu.

>
>>>BTW, Shahnawaz has been dead for quite a while... probably your simple mind
>>	Ok, I am sorry about this. I meant the guy who is in Damishq
>>	and  hoping to serve the people of Pakistan one day. 
>>	And by the way, what is in the name. It is  same shit, whether 
>>	Shahnvaz or Murtuza.

>I did get you there eh? ;)

  Yes you did. To err is Computer Engineer. 

>>>best educated Prime Ministers Pakistan has ever had. People elected her.. she
>>	Let me clear up something here.
>>	People in Lyari and Purana Golimar do not care two dimes about
>>	Benazir's degrees. This is the only place where she or her husband can
>>	try winning. Those places in Karachi where people do care about 
>>	education, she wont win because of her, and her family's,   Kartoots.

>Those places elected murderers and Taxi drivers :)

If anyone elected murderers, he/she is making a mistake. These
murderers should be put behind the bars.
But what is wrong with Taxi drivers? As long as these taxi drivers
did not borrow billions of Rupees from Pakistani Banks without returning
a paisa( eg. Navaz Sharif and Ch. Shujaat Hussain), collected commisions
on every paper moving anywhere in the Govt.( eg. Zardari and Gauhar Ayub,
the 10% group), smuggled drugs( like Gen Fazl-e-Haq) ..... there
is nothing wrong with anyone driving taxi, rickshaw, or cleaning toilets.
And by the way, how about Karachi sending college graduates to the 
National Assembly( A circus house). Apparently, not only taxi drivers, but
two medical doctors and president of Pakistan Engineering Council were
also sent to the National Circus House in Islamambad.


>>	Second, please do not tell us that she is best educated Primeminister
>>	Pakistan ever had. She was definitly more educated than leaders
>>	like Ayub Khan , Yoyo Khan, And Zia. But please.......
>>	Hasan Shaheed Sohrawardy (M.S. Oxford), Khwaja Nazimuddin (Cambridge),
>>	Liaquat Ali Khan( Oxford), were all atleast as educated as she is.
>>	They were all well reputed lawyers before they got into politics.
>>	And how could you forget her father who graduated from Berkeley
>>	and got honorary doctorate from Oxford. (It is another story that
>>	Oxford nullified the degree after Bhutto Sr. was charged with
>>	murder).

>>I said 'one of the best educated'.... mian miTThoo... :
	I am just sick and tired of hearing about benazir's education,
as if she is the only educated person Pakistan ever had. Thanks to
Galbriath( ex. US ambassador to India and a famous economist), who
sifarshid for BB at Harvard. She is not that intelligent any way.
)

>>	And finally,  I prefer less educated Junejo, Chaudhry  Muhammad ali,
>>	Noon, Bogra over Benazir. They were not as messed up as she is.
>>	Atleast they all believed in Pakistan. She on the other hand, is on
>>	the record saying during Zia's time that if India attacks Pakistan,
>>	she will support Indian Army because of the dictatorship  
>>	in Pakistan. 

>Ever wondered why Pakistan and India were not on good terms during the
>two Bhuttos' eras??? Why relations were much better during Jia [sic].

No I never wondered that. Thanks to the Wide spread Ghunda Gardi, Chore bazari,
lafanga-pun during the two govts.
>		
>>>got elected despite the mass rigging by the Government. I still rememeber the
>>>helicopter waiting for Jatoi to get elected, to take him to Islamabad for
>>>swearing in... poor guy didn't win his own seat.
>>	IT is funny indeed. Mr. Jatoi is another one of the crooks.
>>	Sorry I forgot to mention his name with Navaz Sharif, Benazir,
>>	Asghar Khan, and etc.

>You have some sense of humor...
	Thanks.
>
>>>>While She was the Primeminister of Pakistan, her husband was attending
>>>>parties with her Japanese girl friend. I mean she could not keep her
>>>>house in shape and thought she could rule Pakistan.
>>
>>>I told you man!! Go release your tension.. 
>>	Thanks for the advice. I am done!

>Now we're talking business :)
	Yes, I am easy now... I am easy like a Sunday morning.

>>	But Zardari did have "daashtaa's" on the side while kaka Ishaq
>>	was on BB's side :-)
>You did have a troubled childhood for sure :) :)

	Do not worry about my childhood. What should concern you more
is Bilaval and BB's other two kids. With their father fooling around
with other babes, they are gonna have troubles. This is especially
important because after GAuhar Ayub, and that idiot in Damishq,
and other criminals like Ghaus Ali Shah( hey he is climbing the ladder,
first he was a Chief Minister, He fucked it up.. so got promoted to
be a Defence Minister, all what he has to do is to lose a war and he will
become a PM)  I will
not be surprised if people want Bilaval as a Prime Minister.

>
>>>>	I want to ask Pakistanis all over the world  how do they feel
>>>>about people like BB and Navaz getting into Govt.  How will
>>>>they feel If Gauhar Ayub becomes Pakistan's President after Ishaq Khan
>>>>retires. Will it be all right if Khufyaa Haath brings Shahnavaz into
>>>>Pakistan, just like it brought Benazir few years ago. And we may very
>>>>well have Shahnavaz Bhutto as a Prime Minister under Gauhar Ayub.
>>>>People say that History repeats itself. But in case of Pakistan,
>>>>only bad history repeats itself. Ayub Khan and Bhutto Sr. screwed
>>>>Pakistan 25 years ago. Their off springs will do it pretty soon.
>>>>God knows when Pakistan will get rid of chore-uchakkas and
>>>>lafangas and lafangees.
>>
>
>>>God must be wondering what to do with mistakes like yourself :)
>>	He/She must be saying "Ek mistake aur sahee". I am sure
>>	there are other people like me, and I hope God keeps 
>>	making this mistake.
>>

>hee hee hee
	What is this hee hee hee ? Wake up, or you will be
doing hee hee thee thee for rest of your life while people like 
Gauhar Ayub and Damishqee Bhutto screw up Pakistan in future.

>
>>> What can I say about Baig... you'll again accuse me of some Ta'asoob-shit..
>>
>>	Seems like you either knew what Ta'asoob meant or your Urdu
>>	improved in last few minutes :-)
>What do we call you dummy.. don't you get it.. you .. you .. Dan Quayle...
>I don't know the damn word...

Call me any thing but Dan Quale.... I have read more books than Al Gore
has written. Dan Quale hasn't (based on a sign from Democratic Party 
Convention in Houston)


>>	Go ahead and say any thing you wanna say about anyone. Just
>>	do not blame a city/minority/province/language/people
>>	instead of blaming that one person.
>	

>Where did I blame anyone ???
	Just few para's down below....


>> Do you really think Gen. Baig _could_ have tried to bring a martial law...
>	I think he could. His juniors would have loved it too.
>	I know, it is hard for us to believe that someone will miss such

>You must be kidding... otherwise... :)
	No I am not kidding. I am dead serious. 
	You are perfect example of people because of whom they made
	up this muhaavaraa
	Naikee ker daryaa may daal. Give credit to Gen. Baig.
	HE deserves credit for this naikee. he should not have
	to dump it in a daryaa.


>>	a golden opportunity. But I am sure I am not the Only mistake
>>	God made. There are many in Pakistan, atleast I hope so.
>>

>Me too :)

Gee! Trying to be funny my boy?


>>>Sorry.. that was a stupid question :)
>>	Not at all, I think this was the only intelligent question/remark
>>	from you, since the start of this topic. 
>
>Poor you... are there any psychiatrists in Cleveland?? :)
	They are all in touch with me! Think about Pakistan, and
man ! you will need Psychiatrists too. The way things are going on in
Pakistan drive me crazy...... Am I the Only Crazy on the Net? I hope not!

>
>>>>instead of grabing power decided that it should be the people who
>>>>should have it and after more than a decade took the army back to
>>>>the barracks.
>>>>I'll try to post you with the post 1988 scenario sometime later, Ia
>>>	Please do so.
>>>>am getting late for my class.
>>>
>>>MUBASHIR RIZVI.
>>>
>>>>Mansoor Khan 
>>>>Cleveland
>
>>>So Munnai Main... simple headed bozo... you were saying that you are not
>>>aware of what's been happening in Pakistani politics lately (yes the same
>>>lately as in 'Have you driven a ford _lately_). You seem to be quite up to
>>>date.
>>
>>	Barae-Mian Saheb, 
>
>Aadaab arz hai :)

	Your Urdu is getting better day by day, minute by minute :-) 

>>I may be a simple headed bozo, but as you say,
>>I did keep myself pretty up to date, as far as Pakistani affairs are 
>>concerned.  What I had originally requested was that since I had
>>missed the elections in 1980s (being out of Pak. for the whole decade),
>>I would have appreciated some Political Naraas from the recent elections.
>>This did not mean that I was not aware of whatz going on over there.

>I see...
	Good, now that you can see..... you will do something good
	for your country.

>
>>>What surprises me is that in the whole fasana-e-ishq, there is no mention
>>>of MQM.. but, then... I am full of Ta'asoob-shit like my friends Javed Iqbal
>>>from Turkey and Rahim from South Africa :) :)
>>	I wish Pakistan's history was fasana-e-Ishq. Unfortunately, it
>>	is more of Fasana-e-Ajaa'eb. Atleast, Our politicians are
>>	mukamal Ajoobas. By the way, I like your use of Fasana-e-Ishq,
>>	your Urdu really got better in last few minutes.
>>	You are right, MQM was missing, but so was Jiay-SIndh, Panjabi-Pakhtoon
>>	Ittehad, Baluch Alliance, and Walikhan's party. 
>>	Except MQM and Panjabi-Pakhtoon Ittehad all others talk of
>>	breaking up of Pakistan. In fact PPP has become a Khilona in
>>	the hand of Jiay Sindh( in sindh). So after we have 
>>	gone thru the Alif-laelvee tales of Jiay-Sindh, Baluch Alliance,
>>	and Walikhan's party, we should discuss the MQM.
>
>Someone tell this bhalay-manas why MQM is more significant than Jiye-Sindh,
>Panjabi-Pakhtoon Ittehaad, Baluch Alliance.. etc.. 
	Tell this to some MQM dude, He / she will be flattered. I do not
give a shit.
>
>>In your whole account, not once you put any blame on anyone from among
>>"Muhajirs". And you almost make sure that you do blame everyone else.. what
>is this supposed to mean anyway...
	Remember, I told earliar to look few paras down below. This is where
I wanted you to come. I did not use any ethinic goup's name at all.
You in your usual way have jumped on me (remember, I am a Khan and I can
jump back :-) ) and accused of God knows what. I was talking about
the kind of leaders we have been getting in the Govt. Seems like
We do not really have any Muhajirs in the Govt. Otherwise if they were
crooks and in the Govt, I would have blamed them too. So, before I 
put some data below, You.. and people like Muhammad Javed Iqbal and
Rahim should stop blaming "Muhajirs" (using the term you used) for
every major fuck up in Pakistan. 
Now we will see the origin of people who have been ruling Pakistan
for last 45 years. You will be surprised. It is coming from my memory
and may be the ordering is not correct. Also if I have made a mistake
please correct me. We will go in LIFO order ( last in first out)

	Name 			Place of Birth/ Background

	Navaz Sharif		Punjab / Kashmiri
	Benazir			Sindh / Sindhi + Irani
	Ishaq			N.W.F.P / Pashtoon
	Jatoi			Sindh
	Junejo			Sindh
	Zia-ul-Haq		East Panjab 
	Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto	Sindh 
	Yahya			N.W.F.P / Irani(?)
	Ayub Khan		Panjab / Pashtoon
	Iskandar Mirza 		Bombay Area (*)
	Ghulam Mohammad 	Hyderabad Deccan / Panjab (**)
	Hussain Sohrawardy	West Bengal/ Panjab
	Chaudhry Mohammad Ali	East Panjab
	Feroz Khan Noon		Panjab
	Bogra			East Bengal
	Khwaja Nazimuddin	Bengal
	Liaquat Ali Khan	East Panjab( Dist. Kernaal)
	Mr. M. A. Jinnah        Sindh / Gujrati speaking paraents

(*) In this long list, the only person I am not sure of is 
	Major General Iskandar Mirza. I guess, he was from around
	Bombay, but Bombay like Karachi is a cosmopolitan city,
	so he may not necessarily be a Marathaa. May be he was 
	an Urdu speaking, may be not.
	He is the only ruler Pakistan had, during whose rule Pakistan's
	area actually increased. Pakistan successfully negotiated
	Gawadar with Muscat. Pakistan payed some money as a token
	of friendship and took control of Gavadar port in Makran.
	But I blame him for introducing Zulfi Bhutto into Pakistan
	Govt. Pakistanis paid dearly for this mistake of Mirza.

(**) Malik Ghulam Mohammad was born in Hyderabad Deccan, and 
	was an ethnic Panjabi. He is not only responsible for 
	suggesting Kashmir/Hyderabad trade-off..... thus fucking
	both, but also happens to be the first ever dictator
	of Pakistan. He dismissed Prime Minister Khwaja Nazimuddin
	for no reason.

So dude, as we can see from the list above, there are not too many
"Muhajirs" [almost none at all, in the sense you use this word]
to be blamed. 
Same goes for other ministers/cabinets. I came up with the above list
based on my memory, and can not provide any references 
For those
who are interested in Ethnic Composition of Several Pakistan Cabinets
Khalid Ben Sayed talks about this in one of his books (published 80's).

so you, and others like you, should stop blaming Muhajirs. They are not
Farishtaas, but not responsible for the situation we got in Pakistan.

Racism sucks. I did not want to talk in these terms. But you forced
me to tell you why  I had not included any Muhajir among major fuckers
in Pakistani Govt.
It has been 45 years since Pakistan was founded. We  still got people
dying  in floods, while their representives were having good
time in Islamabad. We still have  terrible living conditions in lyari
and their polo-playing representive was busy collecting rishvats and
fooling around with Japanese babe. 
If you have ever been to Lyari, you will realize that not only the people
they have sent to Govt have done nothing for them, but in fact screw up
the whole pakistan. Their representive live miles away from them and
come to lyari only during election season. In order to get rid of
these idiots like Zardari, Benazir, and Navaz..... we need wide spread
education so people will figure out  Milk Kaa Milk, and Water Kaa water.
So cutie pie, I hope we all  get rid of racism. 
Do not blame some one just because he/she speaks a diferent lang./ belongs to
different race, has another color etc..



>
>>>Nadeem
>
>>Mansoor Khan
>>Cleveland.
>

>Nadeem

Mansoor Khan
Cleveland, Ohio



Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.bangladesh,soc.culture.india