From: HADCRJAM@admin.uh.edu (MILLER, JIMMY A.)
Subject: Re: WHO OWNS WHO?...or is it whom?...or what?
Organization: University of Houston Administrative Computing
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 15:52:29 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.20

In <92225.110850ADMN8647@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca> Linda writes:

> In article <1992Aug11.151252.25274@menudo.uh.edu> MILLER, JIMMY A. says:
> >
> >In <1992Aug10.224355.22522@coopsol.com> gordons@coopsol.com writes:
> >
> >> Should a mindless fetus, for the sake of it's 'bodily autonomy', be able
> >> to ruin a person's life, damaging them physically, mentally, and
> >> financially?
> >> Gordon
> >
> >  Just to be nit-picky, none of these awful things are certain or even
> >likely, Gordon, as you well know.

Linda...
>Mr. Miller it would appear you know nothing about pregnancy.
[deletion]
>Ninety percent of women will suffer post partnum depression
>within the first 10 days of giving birth.  Ten percent of
>these will require hospitalization and/or medication.

>The financial costs of pregnancy are well documented,
[deletions]
>Mr. Storga knew what he was saying and he was right.

  Ahem.  Every now and then I am reminded to dot my i's and cross my t's.
Allow me to be painfully specific.  My real issue was with the words "ruin
a person's life".  This implies that pregnancy will almost certainly "ruin" 
your life physically, emotionally and financially.  

  "Ruin". 

  I was merely bringing Gordon's statement to heel.  Unwanted (or even wanted,
for that matter) pregnancies CAN do all these things--with the effect of "ruin."
But it is NOT a certainty.  Or highly likley.  To be fair to Gordon, he did 
not say it was, but he didn't say it wasn't, either.  I felt the need to point 
out the latter.

  "Ruin" is a strong word.  It must be used with care.  I take issue with it's
use here.  I found Gordon's alarmism extreme.  We must be as specific as we
can with these kinds of statements.

  You have listed several things which are, in fact, not ruinous.  Which is
not to say that they may never be so.  Since I began posting here some months 
ago, there has been nothing posting related to long-term health effects of a
pregancy beyond anecdotes.  I have asked for it and nobody has provided it.  
I've looked myself and found nothing beyond mortality rates.  I'm sure it's out
there, somewhere--but till found I can only judge by my own observations and 
those of others; hardly a comprehensive basis.

  I find extremism both ways distasteful.  Holtzinger's interpretation of Roe
is extreme.  Chaney is ridiculous in some of his assertions.  And I found
Gordon's (unqualified) statement the same way.  I've had things to say about
each.  And they were not flattering.

>Mr. Miller your repeated trivialization of the effects
>of pregnancy and child birth in this newsgroup display
>a contemptuous attitude toward women.  I don't care what
>your views on abortion are, but your dismissal of the very
>real physical and mental stresses that a woman undergoes
>while carrying a fetus to term is either due to ignorance
>or misogyny.  Both can be rectified.
>Linda

  I do not "trivialize".  I bring things down to earth.  I have never "dis-
missed" the difficulties associated with pregnancy and child-rearing.  Merely
pointed out what isn't and need not be, with a little effort.  If that is
trivialization in your eyes so be it.  But I make no apologies for cutting 
assertions down to size.

  I have known a lot of women, many mothers, some single mothers.  Some have
complained.  Some have had problems of one sort or another.  Not one has or
would say their life was ruined.  I have seen plenty.  I am aware of more.
And have taken my education in good grace, generally, where facts exist
and have been presented.  If you've got them, I will be happy to look at
them, and you may find me more willing to change than you expect.  I
told Tim Lynch (where's he been lately?) when I first posted here I would 
change any proposals or opinions to match reality--and I meant it.

  That I am contemptuous and mysoginistic is perhaps the over-extrapolation
of the year.  Just because in your wild-eyed leap to read more into what I
said than I meant, you found "something", does not make it so.  In fact, I
find it almost amusing.  It only goes to show that we will always first see
just what we want to see--you can ask Susan Garvin how I did the same thing
about two weeks ago with her.

  And if I bothered to mention this to my female friends, they would collapse
with laughter.  And they know exactly where I stand on abortion, too.  Not
that you care, as you said.  Dispense with the insults and feed me facts.
And don't forget the sources either.


semper fi,

Jammer Jim Miller 
Texas A&M University '89 and '91
********************************************************************************
* Aggie in Cougarland -- I just work here.				       *
* Speak for my employers?  They don't even know I exist!		       *
*"Become one with the Student Billing System. *BE* the Student Billing System."*
*             *********************************************		       *
* "Power finds its way to those who take a stand.  Stand up, Ordinary Man."    *
*      ---Rik Emmet, Gil Moore, Mark Levine: Triumph 		               *
********************************************************************************