From: FA.TJM@forsythe.stanford.edu (thom mckean)
Subject: Re: lying to oneself (was Re: Sanctity of relationships)
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 23:47:05 GMT

In article <1992Apr9.160101.21264@hemlock.cray.com>,
robd@cray.com (Robert Derrick) writes:
>Meloney writes:
>: after I wrote:
>:
>: >I agree with you that people "lie to themselves all the time", but I
>: >don't think they are very successful at believing it.  Though it
>: >doesn't stop 'em from trying.
>:
>: *snort*
>: Son, do I have some people *You* need to meet.
>
>Well, mom, if I met these people, what would I find?  In other words, can
>you give an example?  The best one would be an instance where you lied to
>yourself and believed it.  It is next to impossible to know whether someone
>else who is lying to themselves (a quite obvious condition) actually
>believes it (I maintain, a rare to non-existent contition).  Even if they
>say they believe it, I would still have my doubts.  But I am stubborn.
>
>The case in point - the fellow is asking us to affirm that making himself
>a part of the breakup of a current relationship is ok.  He would like for
>us to tell him it's ok.  He will try to do it anyway, of course, but it
>would have been nice if we all told him to go ahead.  The few people who
>did tell him it was ok may be enough.  But my point is: he asked us!  Why?
>Because he knows that what he is thinking about doing probably wrong.  But
>desire will always overcome wisdom in the weak.  So he is lying to himself,
>but he really doesn't believe the lie, he just thinks that if the world
>will justify his actions, then that will make it right.  Of course it won't,
>and therein lies the wellspring of human misery.
>
>        Some kind of love tears the heart
>        When you knew it was wrong from the start
>        But try to explain the moth to the flame
>        Some kind of love tears the heart
>                                        - John Stewart
>
>: There are, indeed, people who can lie to themselves and everyone they meet
>: and completely convince themselves they are honest and don't practice
>: deception.
>
>I need to see examples.
>
I realize this is probably not the kind of example you are looking
for, but here goes anyway:

The vast majority of Americans during WWII managed to convince
themselves that interning thousands of American citizens of Japanese
descent was perfectly all right - would that meet your criteria?

On a more personal note, I have known people who say they don't have
drinking/drug problems.  They say it doesn't affect their lives or
their work - however, I've seen these people not remember where
they were or what they did for entire weekends; I've seen these
people call in sick because they were hung over, and I even had one
friend in college who maintained he had no problem, came to the
final completely stoned, and proceeded to scribble all over the
exam.  He wasn't too happy when the university asked him to stop out
for awhile.

I would not consider these people particularly pathological - they
make up a significant percentage of the population.

I'd really like to see how one could get through life only dealing
with completely well-adjusted people.  There just aren't many of
them out there.

>I guess I believe that people are basically good, and when they do bad
>things, they will feel the 'bad', however much they tell themselves and
>others that they truly believe in what they are doing.  They will feel
>the pangs.
>
>note: I do not include pathological people, or really
>        stupid people (like oh, Dan Quayle, for instance).
>
Thom
with the visage of Robert Redford, the body of Arnie,
the palate of Wolfgang Puck, the eye of Scorcese,
the intelligence of Einstein, the wisdom of Lao-Tse
and staying power like you've never seen!!!