HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: pete@cssc-syd.tansu.com.au (Peter Alexander Merel)
Subject: Re: What's the Deal?
Organization: AOTC - CSSC
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 03:13:09 GMT

<JPS127@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
>[man wasn't meant to fly. Um, resurrect.]

You haven't demonstrated that this is so.

>No technology will be able to repair molecular structures.

You seem to have dismissed nanotechnology without understanding what the word
means. I suggest you may profit by reading "Engines of Creation", or at least
skimming a pop-sci treatment of the idea before posting here.

>[If you have religious objections to cryonics how did you reconcile them]

This is a good question. Did anyone who's signed have religious qualms to
conquer?

-- 
Internet: pete@cssc-syd.tansu.com.au   UUCP: {uunet,mcvax}!munnari!cssc-syd!pete
Snail: 1/18-20 Orion Road, Lane Cove NSW 2066 Australia    Phone: +61 2 911 3130
I am a big pond in a small fish.
Newsgroups: sci.cryonics
From: tolman%asylum.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Kenneth Tolman)
Subject: Convincing others of cryonics?
Date: 15 Nov 92 20:24:36 MST
Organization: University of Utah, CompSci Dept

Suppose there is someone you know who you are interested in at least
INVESTIGATING cryonics.  How can you get them interested?  I would
like to hear other ideas.

1) Cryonics is basically time travel.  So ask "If you had the opportunity
to travel forwards in time, would you do it?"  Do you identify with the
Time Traveller in H.G. Wells book?  If you really would build a time machine
then you really would invest in cryonics.

2) Cryonics makes good gambling sense.  (I posted a long note about this
months ago)  You are basically gambling, with an investment and with
a possible return.  Therefore figure out how much (100 years or so) extra life
is worth, and what your investment return is.  For anyone who is not an
idiot, it makes good economic sense as an investment.

3) Cryonics is merely another medical procedure, and a lot less costly than 
many other medical procedures.  For instance, the entire cost of cancer 
therapy, or of any major disease.  These procedures most reasonable people 
undertake, with perhaps the same (or less) odds than cryonics.  (How about 
the cost of AIDS... which is certainly terminal, odds are even worse here)

What are other approaches?
From: tsf@CS.CMU.EDU (Timothy Freeman)
Newsgroups: sci.cryonics
Subject: Re: Answering inquiries
Date: 18 Nov 92 16:10:34 GMT
Article-I.D.: cs.Bxx69r.LGI.1
Organization: Carnegie Mellon University
Originator: tsf@U.ERGO.CS.CMU.EDU

In article <1992Nov17.220507.14921@hellgate.utah.edu> tolman%asylum.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Kenneth Tolman) writes:

     So suppose you are all signed up with Alcor (or elsewhere) and are
   wearing a chain around your neck with "dog tags".  How do you answer
   accurately and quickly to all the people who ask "What is that chain
   around your neck, are you in the military?"

I wore the bracelet for a few months, and not one person asked me
"What's that?", so I quit and now I only wear the necklace.

--
Tim Freeman <tsf@cs.cmu.edu>    CompuServe ID 71045,2267 checked occasionally.
When they took the fourth amendment, I was silent because I don't deal drugs.
When they took the sixth amendment, I kept quiet because I know I'm innocent.
When they took the second amendment, I said nothing because I don't own a gun.
Now they've come for the first amendment, and I can't say anything at all.
Newsgroups: sci.cryonics
From: bgrahame@eris.demon.co.uk (Robert D Grahame)
Subject: Convincing others of cryonics? 
Distribution: world
Organization: Perhaps
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 21:01:19 +0000

In article <1992Nov16.151921.17649@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> wk5w@brain.med.virginia.edu writes:

>Huh?  How do you figure you get "extra" life by cryonics?  You assume there
If you can fix the freezing damage, you can fix quite a lot more ills a lot
easier.
>increase in the future.  What about new viruses (like a super-AIDS) or
>ozone destruction or ....
If things are that bad, why would anyone bother reviving the suspended?

>Any increase in life expectency would be due to advances at the time of
>reawakening.  This assumes alot.
It does (IMHO). But if the advances don't happen, I don't get revived, so I'm
around until they *do*, or the suspension is disrupted for some reason. If
the whole idea is flawed, and I cease to be around before suspension (eg.
pearly gates, or more mundane irreverible brain death, then all I've lost is
the cost of my life insurance.

>Are you only talking about cryonics for terminally ill patients?  Because if
>you are not talking about terminally ill patients, I'd like to hear what
>sort of system (besides vaporware) you are describing.  I am not aware of
>ANY use of cryonics on human subjects (even the legal implications are

I think so. Revival of current suspensions is still vapourware (although some
people are talking of possible release dates :-) ). There are quite a few
people already suspended though, and many more who have made arrangements
with one or other of the organisations that offer this service. (I've not
done so, BTW, though I am considering it).

>severe).  How can you describe unknown "odds" of cryonics then, and even
>compare them with proven medical methods like cancer therapy.  By the way,
>"cancer therapy" is a very broad label which lumps together methods
>with 90+% success rates to sub 20% success rates. There are many forms of
>cancer, all with different therapies and prognoses.
Quite so, the odds are 'better' (IMHO) than they were a few years back, but
there are still too many unknowns to put figures on them. Give me
chemotherapy over an ice-bath any day!

>-Bill

Regards,

-- Bob Grahame, Streatham, London. LAN Consultant
-- Voice :- +(44)71 406 7795 : PGP 2.0 Key available
Newsgroups: sci.cryonics
From: kached@vccnw03.its.rpi.edu (Daniel Franklin Kacher Jr.)
Subject: Cryonics Institute VS Alcor
Reply-To: kached@rpi.edu
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY.
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 01:43:16 GMT

Can anyone outline the difference between these two groups?
I've read Alcor's literature.  I've spoken to someone at Alcor.
He said he had a masters in Biochemistry.  He claims he's the most
educated fellow there.  He also said they are doing zero research due to lack of funding.  How do they expect to advance the field at this rate?
What's IC doing?  How can I get a hold of their literature?

-Dan


.
From: willdye@helios.unl.edu (Will Dye)
Newsgroups: sci.cryonics
Subject: Re: Convincing others of cryonics?
Date: 16 Nov 1992 22:21:29 GMT
Organization: University of Nebraska--Lincoln	
NNTP-Posting-Host: helios.unl.edu

I tend to see cryonics as what-have-we-got-to-lose CPR, to be used 
only when all else fails.  It may not work, or it may work only 
partially (i.e. they revive SOMETHING, and it walks around and 
thinks, but there was enough brain damage that it isn't really 
YOU anymore), but what have you got to lose?  

Actually, you DO lose some money; and there's potential grief for 
you relatives that don't know if you're "dead" or not, and there's 
an investment of time and effort to get it set up.  For those with 
the cash, however, it's worth a shot if all else fails.

--Will
Newsgroups: sci.cryonics
From: tsf@CS.CMU.EDU (Timothy Freeman)
Subject: Re: What's the Deal?
Originator: tsf@U.ERGO.CS.CMU.EDU
Organization: Carnegie Mellon University
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 17:55:55 GMT

In article <92323.111631JPS127@psuvm.psu.edu> JPS127@psuvm.psu.edu writes:

   Honestly, I don't believe in cryonics and technology be
   damned I don't think revival is possible.

   Yes low temperature will slow
   any chemical process but not enough over time.

I was concerned at first that your objections might be well-informed,
but it is clear from this that they are not.  Several centuries at LN2
tempertatures are equivalent to an hour or so at room temperature.
The FAQ has pointers to a careful analysis.

Clearly people aren't reading the FAQ.  Maybe I forgot to post it this
month.  I'll repost it in any case.

--
Tim Freeman <tsf@cs.cmu.edu>    CompuServe ID 71045,2267 checked occasionally.
When they took the fourth amendment, I was silent because I don't deal drugs.
When they took the sixth amendment, I kept quiet because I know I'm innocent.
When they took the second amendment, I said nothing because I don't own a gun.
Now they've come for the first amendment, and I can't say anything at all.
Newsgroups: sci.cryonics
From: tolman%asylum.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Kenneth Tolman)
Subject: Answering inquiries
Date: 17 Nov 92 22:05:07 MST
Organization: University of Utah, CompSci Dept

  So suppose you are all signed up with Alcor (or elsewhere) and are
wearing a chain around your neck with "dog tags".  How do you answer
accurately and quickly to all the people who ask "What is that chain
around your neck, are you in the military?"

  A lot of people have asked me what the chain is around my neck.  All
of my immediate friends know what I am up to, but many random people
who I run into inquire about it. (I wear it normally on the outside of my
clothing, sometimes to stir curiosity!)

  What is the correct response to such questions?  Normally, I tell them:
"I am part of a scientific experiment, and they are going to deep freeze
me when I die to try to bring me back to life."  And then I smile 
wonderfully as if to say.. "What, you aren't part of it?"

  However, I am sure at some point there will be somebody fantastically rude,
who I have not encountered yet.  Has anyone had a bad experience with
anyone?

  Sometime people assume I have a medical problem (like diabetes).  Many
people assume I am in the military (probably due to my hair cut and
general appearance). 

  Anybody have any comments about their tags/bracelets and interactions
with others?




Newsgroups: sci.cryonics
From: bgrahame@eris.demon.co.uk (Robert D Grahame)
Subject: Convincing others of cryonics? 
Distribution: world
Organization: Perhaps
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 21:01:10 +0000


In article <1992Nov15.202437.13829@hellgate.utah.edu> tolman%asylum.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu writes:
>INVESTIGATING cryonics.  How can you get them interested?  I would
>like to hear other ideas.

First off, I'm not sure if it's a good idea to 'sell' cryonics this way. the
last thing I'd like to do is raise someone's expectations and then see them
dashed when they see how far off it might be. Better to get over the idea of
possible physical immortality (without a spell in the cooler) first, perhaps?

After all, what's the use of being revived and having your illness cured,
only to grow senile soon afterwards.

A good starter may be 'how did you get interested?'. In my case it was
through interest in (non-extreme) methods of life extension. Even then , I
didn't do much more than glance at the subject until I got interested in
Drexler's stuff.

>1) Cryonics is basically time travel.  So ask "If you had the opportunity

A one-way trip is a last resort. I'd rather get to the future the long way
round if possible, personally. :-) Also, the future in that novel is hardly
one to persuade people to queue up for the trip!

Heinlein's 'The Door into Summer' is better (cryonics *and* time travel), but
I did not read it until some time after I had found out about the subject. It
features two-way travel as well, which may be offputting to many as even more
far-fetched.

>2) Cryonics makes good gambling sense.  (I posted a long note about this

This argument works well only after someone is interested, and has not got a
pre-concieved idea that it is impossible. While reversible cryonics is still
'vapourware' as another poster puts it, the odds are not that dissimilar from
Pascal's wager.

>3) Cryonics is merely another medical procedure, and a lot less costly than 
>many other medical procedures.  For instance, the entire cost of cancer 

Yes, well, lobotomy is merely another medical procedure, and it's cheaper.
<grin>
We need far more real medical evidence that cryonics will work before this
argument works well. That said, some familiarity with medical procedures is
helpful, as proof that people can survive states in which neuronal firing is
temporarily disrupted, and so that the actual suspension techniques are less
shocking. Also, this could make people realise that 'death' is not such a
black & white state. Dead in 1700 is just 'critical' in 1992.

>What are other approaches?

Well, nanotechnology is an interesting subject in it's own right, and is the
current favourite repair strategy, so a copy of one of Drexler's books may
help (I've only read EoC).

-- Bob Grahame, Streatham, London. LAN Consultant
-- Voice :- +(44)71 406 7795 : PGP 2.0 Key available

Newsgroups: sci.cryonics
From: pmetzger@snark.shearson.com (Perry E. Metzger)
Subject: Re: Cryonics, etc
Organization: /usr/local/lib/news/organization
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 21:22:07 GMT

wk5w@brain.med.virginia.edu (William Katz) writes:
>Beyond the technical issues though, what makes people think that the people
>of the future will *want* to spend the energy and resources to revive some
>relic from the past (unless they are your descendents)?

Well, I've signed a contract with Alcor and they are getting paid a
lot of money to do whatever they reasonably can to revive me should
the technology ever be developed. I don't depend on anyone's good
will.

Now, arguably, Alcor may go bankrupt or shirk its obligations, but the
whole thing is hardly a sure thing to begin with. The point is just
that given no other choice, that is, given that I'm legally dead, I'd
rather have a small chance of surviving than none at all, which is
what feeding me to the worms would imply.

--
Perry Metzger		pmetzger@shearson.com
--
"They can have my RSA key when they pry it from my cold dead fingers."
Libertarian Party info: Phone 1-800-682-1776, E-Mail 345-5647@mcimail.com
Newsgroups: sci.cryonics
From: JPS127@psuvm.psu.edu
Newsgroups: sci.cryonics
Subject: What's the Deal?
Date: 18 Nov 92 16:16:31 GMT
Article-I.D.: psuvm.92323.111631JPS127
Organization: Penn State University


  I just don't get it, is this line a support group for you people?  I'm gener-
ally very open minded but I just don't see how you people can fall for such a
pie in the sky idea.  Honestly, I don't believe in cryonics and technology be
damned I don't think revival is possible.
  I understand your arguement that people will only be revived when the proper
advances have been made to insure a cure for the cause of death has been found,
and in most cases I believe that cures will (someday) be found.  However, I do
not believe that any technology (nanotechnology included) will ever be able to
reconstruct the damage a body will sustain during the freezing and storage pro-
cesses.  Certainly efforts can be made to reduce the amount of freezing damage,
but as for storing, and I hate to be the first one to point this out to you, we
are highly ordered beings.  Entropy always wins!  Certainly it is possible to
freeze tissue to a level where biodegradation is a minimum, but chemical change
will have to occur - or are you frozen to 0K?  Yes low temperature will slow
any chemical process but not enough over time.  No technology will be able to
repare molecular structures.
  Macroscopically it is possible to freeze and thaw tissue, I've got a steak in
my freezer that's been there for a year and I'm sure that when I thaw and cook
it the taste will be fine.  But microscopically, I just don't think so!  Let's
not even consider the bursting of lysozymes and their enzymatic distruction of
all cellular components - I'll assume you guys have that one figured out - let
us consider instead the stress and strain placed on all cell constituents when
they enter and leave the crystal lattice.  Possibly some of the organelles can
survive, but all?  I have a hard time believing that.
  Another point, religious beliefs.  I am not at all religious, but I would
assume that some of you are.  When exactly does heaven come into play?  Do you
go to heaven for a little bit until you're thawed an then return.  Theologians
would love that one.  Perhaps you don't go to heaven until some mortal thaws
you out and your soul is released, but then your soul probably would have been
released when you died in the first place.  I'm sure there are other explain-
ations, but I don't have them.  If God does not exist, then this is no big
deal, but if He does......
  Finally, how can you be sure you'll be revived, what if it's just a big scam.
Medical doctors know that they will be around to suffer the consiquences if a
mistake is made, cryonics people - if it is a scam - know they'll be long dead
before anything is discovered, and whose going to discover it any way, some
dead guy in a block of ice - like hes in the position to do anything about it.
  Answer my post, convince me, and I'll go along quietly.  Like I said, I'm
open minded - you just better have the answers I need.


  -  James P. Smith  -
Newsgroups: sci.cryonics
From: wk5w@brain.med.virginia.edu (William Katz)
Subject: Re: Answering inquiries
Organization: Neuroclinical Trials Center, University of Virginia
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 17:28:05 GMT

In article <1992Nov17.220507.14921@hellgate.utah.edu> tolman%asylum.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Kenneth Tolman) writes:
>  So suppose you are all signed up with Alcor (or elsewhere) and are
>wearing a chain around your neck with "dog tags".  How do you answer
>accurately and quickly to all the people who ask "What is that chain
>around your neck, are you in the military?"
>
How many companies are in the cryonics business?
How much does it cost to be a subject?
Are there any good (i.e. accurate scientifically and not brain-dead
 pro-/anti-cryonics propaganda) articles/books on current cryonics
 technology out there?

-Bill
From: earl@cco.caltech.edu (Earl A. Hubbell)
Newsgroups: sci.cryonics
Subject: Re: What's the Deal?
Date: 19 Nov 1992 03:59:08 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: alumni.caltech.edu

<JPS127@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:

>  I just don't get it, is this line a support group for you people?  I'm gener-
>ally very open minded but I just don't see how you people can fall for such a
>pie in the sky idea.  Honestly, I don't believe in cryonics and technology be
>damned I don't think revival is possible.
>cesses.  Certainly efforts can be made to reduce the amount of freezing damage,
>but as for storing, and I hate to be the first one to point this out to you, we
>are highly ordered beings.  Entropy always wins!  Certainly it is possible to
>freeze tissue to a level where biodegradation is a minimum, but chemical change
>will have to occur - or are you frozen to 0K?  Yes low temperature will slow
>any chemical process but not enough over time.  No technology will be able to
>repare molecular structures.

	This is not clear - note that the vast majority of molecules in
living beings are identical (hemoglobin tends to be the same from red
blood cell to red blood cell, the phospholipids in the cell walls are
alike) - this suggests the possibility of restoring even extensive
microscopic damage given a technology that can work on an atomic scale.
However, microscopic damage seems not to be that extreme...
	
>  Macroscopically it is possible to freeze and thaw tissue, I've got a steak in
>it the taste will be fine.  But microscopically, I just don't think so!  Let's
>not even consider the bursting of lysozymes and their enzymatic distruction of
>all cellular components - I'll assume you guys have that one figured out - let
>us consider instead the stress and strain placed on all cell constituents when
>they enter and leave the crystal lattice.  Possibly some of the organelles can
>survive, but all?  I have a hard time believing that.

	I'll just point out the standard example of seeds, embryos, and
other such biological structures being stored at liquid nitrogen temperatures
and successfully being revived (and having custody battles fought over
them!)  This strongly suggests that 'microscopic' damage is minimal enough
to be repaired, even by the normal cellular repair mechanisms.  
	The >macroscopic< damage (initial death, cracks in organs due
to different freezing rates, ice crystals damaging large numbers of
cells, assorted 'system integration' problems with higher organisms) seems
to be the major hurdle.

>  Answer my post, convince me, and I'll go along quietly.  Like I said, I'm
>open minded - you just better have the answers I need.

>  -  James P. Smith  -
-- 
'You can tell I'm educated/I studied at the Sorbonne *earl@tybalt.caltech.edu
Doctorate in Mathematics/I could have been a Don     *Earl Hubbell
I can program computers/Choose the perfect Time      *Opinions solely mine.
If you've got the inclination/I've got the Crime" -Opportunities, Pet Shop Boys
Newsgroups: sci.cryonics
From: tsf@CS.CMU.EDU (Timothy Freeman)
Subject: Re: The Technical Feasibility of Cryonics
Originator: tsf@U.ERGO.CS.CMU.EDU
Organization: Carnegie Mellon University
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 15:16:51 GMT

Thanks for the post!  Have there been any interesting responses to it
in the letters section of the journal where it was published yet?  

--
Tim Freeman <tsf@cs.cmu.edu>    CompuServe ID 71045,2267 checked occasionally.
When they took the fourth amendment, I was silent because I don't deal drugs.
When they took the sixth amendment, I kept quiet because I know I'm innocent.
When they took the second amendment, I said nothing because I don't own a gun.
Now they've come for the first amendment, and I can't say anything at all.
Xref: sparky sci.fractals:356 alt.binaries.pictures.utilities:1721
From: twegner@mwunix.mitre.org (Timothy Wegner)
Newsgroups: sci.fractals,alt.binaries.pictures.utilities
Subject: Re: Postscript from FRACTINT-inverted image.
Date: 17 Nov 92 14:16:25 GMT
Organization: The MITRE Corporation

gathe@ul.ie writes:

>Both ways gave me an image which is white on black! [Very hard on toner 
>cartridge!] Is there any way to invert the image (b<-->w) using FRACTINT, 

This is the sort of thing PICLAB was born to do. Piclab is a public domain
PC-based image processing tool. You will find it in msdos/graphics on simtel20
and its mirrors. One such is oak.oakland.edu under /pub.

However this does seem like the sort of thing we should fix in Fractint. Have
you tried using a different color map (try the palette editor.)
--
Tim Wegner     Fractint co-author
Internet: twegner@mwunix.mitre.org  Compuserve: 71320.675@compuserve.com
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 03:44:53 EST
From: <NMR103@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.fractals
Subject: Re: Syntax for the L-Systems part of FractInt?
Distribution: world

I was under the impression that L-systems were generated by IFS codes.
Am I completely wrong in this assumption? For example, the top half of
the Koch curve can be generated by replacing one line segment with
four segments, each 1/3 the length of the original (kind of looks like
this: _/\_ ) --- each of these line segments can be considered a
transformation with a set of IFS codes attached to it. Would this
be a correct definition of L-system?
Newsgroups: sci.fractals
From: cliff@watson.ibm.com (cliff)
Subject: Speech Recognition / Also fractal music
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 21:16:42 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: A

There were questions on speech recognition and fractal music.
Other graphical ways for representing speech sounds, such as
the "phase vectorgram" resembling a fractal pipe-cleaner,
cartoon faces, and symmetrized dot-patterns resembling snowflakes,
are presented in: Pickover, C. (1990) Computers, Pattern, Chaos, and Beauty.
St. Martin's Press: NY. 

On the topic of music, the following book has about 30 pages in a part titled
"Music Beyond Imagination" on unusual graphic representations for music.
Topics include: Music from genetic sequences, alien musical scores, pink noise,
ink splattered scores, etc.  The book is: Pickover, C. (1992) Mazes for the
Mind: Computers and the Unexpected. St. Martin's Press: NY.

Thanks.
Xref: sparky sci.fractals:348 sci.physics:19050 sci.electronics:19018