HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sog@craycos.com (Steve Gombosi)
Newsgroups: rec.photo
Subject: Re: Information about tripods needed
Date: 5 Nov 92 20:18:21 GMT
Organization: Cray Computer Corporation

In article <1dape7INNs83@panda.usc.edu> mx@panda.usc.edu (ICBM) writes:
>Thanks for all those kindness friends who reply my mail.
>I spent some time last weekend in some camera stores and here are some
>impressions I got:
>1) I was quite disappointed with U212DX. The leg spread can not be locked tightly.
>2) Slik 444 is another nice tripod. The major disadvantage is a little short.
> I remember have read somewhere that tripod should rise to about eye level.
> I am not very tall but 5' is definitely too short.
>3) I have looked at both Bogen 3001 and 3021. They *ARE* very sturdy. 
> (I almost want to sit on it just like in the picture of Bogen ads :-) ).
> However I am still not very interested in Bogen's heads. :-<
>
>So I still need some more help, namely:
>3) The most outrageous question: are tripod heads from different manufactures
> interchangeable? 
> i.e. can I mount a Slik head on Bogen legs or vice versa?

Most tripods use a standard 3/8" screw thread to connect the legs and head.
They should be freely interchangeable. You shouldn't have any problem doing
this - try it in the store.


Steve
From: ray@tsw.UUCP (Ray Izumi)
Newsgroups: rec.photo
Subject: Re: Canon EOS 20-35 lenses?
Date: 6 Nov 92 16:41:07 GMT
Organization: The System Works, Redmond, WA

In article <2300080@hpgrla.gr.hp.com> daveb@hpgrla.gr.hp.com (Dave Boyd) writes:
>
>
>     In several mail order ads (Cambridge was one of them) I've seen two
>different 20-35 zoom lenses for Canon EOS cameras.  There's a 20-35 2.8L
>that sells for about $1000, and a 20-35 3.5 that sells for about $300.
>
>     What gives?  Could the mail order places have listed an off-brand lens
>
Note that the more expensive lens is also a FASTER lens; particularly in
zooms, faster lenses require more sophisticated optics. Note that a faster
lens does not necessarily mean a better lens!!

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ray Izumi, The System Works, Redmond, WA     206-823-4685      uunet!tsw!ray
"Put the pillow over your head, scream and cry - the garbage is coming!"
           - New York City Commissioner of Sanitation
From: marc@milan.East.Sun.COM (Marc Thompson-Sun-Vienna VA-Systems Engineer)
Newsgroups: rec.photo
Subject: Extension Tubes for Nikor Lenses
Date: 12 Nov 1992 18:45:47 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: marc@milan.East.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: milan.east.sun.com

Does anyone if extension tubes are available for Nikor lenses, and if so, which
ones.  I am specifically interested in tubes for 180 2.8 ED,  300 2.8 ED, and 105 2.5
AIS.

Thanks,

Marc .....
From: coyote@sti.com (Ron Lussier)
Newsgroups: rec.photo
Subject: Re: photomanipulation
Keywords: photomanipulation examples
Date: 11 Nov 92 02:00:37 GMT
Article-I.D.: sti.BxJ492.1tw
Organization: National Man-Smurf Love Association

In article <hdevine.721086386@cunews> hdevine@alfred.carleton.ca (Heather Devine) writes:
>I am looking for specific examples of photographs that have been
>manipulated and used as a picture of reality.

One good example is the cover of 'A Day in the Life of California'.  As I
understand it, the background was 'cleaned up' inthe cover picture of the
surf-boy.

Ron
-- 
Ron 'Coyote' Lussier            /|               Software Transformation
coyote@sti.com                 / |      1601 Saratoga-Sunnyvale Rd, #100
(408) 973-8081 x315           /__\                   Cupertino, CA 95014
From: campbell@sab59.larc.nasa.gov (Bryan Campbell)
Newsgroups: rec.photo
Subject: Re: Creative Backgrounds
Date: 9 Nov 1992 21:18:15 GMT
Organization: NASA Langley Research Center, Hampton, VA  USA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sab59.larc.nasa.gov
Keywords: backgrounds

In article <1992Nov4.220443.7551@fy.chalmers.se>, f88mattb@fy.chalmers.se (Mattias Bryntesson) writes:
|> In article <1cs59qINNb2a@rave.larc.nasa.gov> campbell@sab59.larc.nasa.gov (Bryan Campbell) writes:
|> 
|> > a king-size bed sheet?
|> 
|> Yes, and dye it in your washing machine - simple but easy ;-)
|> 
|> Mattias
 
  I have a few spare king-size sheets that I can experiment with.
  But, will the washing machine cause the sheet to be dyed evenly,
  or in blotches?  I would prefer uneven blotches.

  Bryan.
Newsgroups: rec.photo
From: wb@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (werner.baumgartner)
Subject: SLR body repair
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 20:48:55 GMT

For my first attempt at a repair job I picked up
a damaged Mamiya 1000 DTL body for a few dollars.
I am trying to remove the top plate and am stuck
at the film advance lever. Could anyone tell me
how to remove it from the shaft ? I see no set screw
and suspect that the chrome ring on top of the lever
should unscrew but it will not budge.

				Thanks, Werner B.
Newsgroups: rec.photo
From: d90-nsc@nada.kth.se (Niclas Schopenhauer)
Subject: Advice on Canon 50 mm/f1.8 wanted
Keywords: Canon
Organization: Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 16:02:34 GMT



   I am considering buying a 50 mm lens for my Canon 100 (Elan in the US, I
believe). However, since the only 50 mm lens by Canon on the market (not counting
the 50/f1.0) belongs to the II series which, I am told, have bad optical quality,
I'm considering buying a second-hand copy of the old 50 mm f/1.8.

  What I would like to know is how good the old one is compared with the one from
the II series. Any advice would be welcome.

  (By the way, am I the only one hearing rumours about a new 50 mm f/1.4 USM ?)



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                     Niclas Schopenhauer
                                     School of Computer Science and Engineering
                                     Royal Institute of Technology
                                     Stockholm, Sweden
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.photo
From: wedman@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (WEDMAN DOUGLAS EDWARD)
Subject: Re: photomanipulation
Keywords: photomanipulation examples
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 16:25:50 GMT

In article <hdevine.721086386@cunews> hdevine@alfred.carleton.ca (Heather Devine) writes:
>I am looking for specific examples of photographs that have been
>manipulated and used as a picture of reality.  For example, the
>National Geographic photo which moved the pyramids closer together for
>a horizontal rather than vertical photo.  I need examples that date
>back no farther than two years, and I prefer those that have been used
>in newspapers.
>
>If you have any information that could add to this topic, I would be
>very pleased to hear from you.
>
>Sincerely, Heather C. Devine

Just go to the grocery store and pick up any of the Nat. Enquirer type rags...

Newsgroups: rec.photo
From: smustopo@nyx.cs.du.edu (sofjan mustopoh)
Subject: Re: Incredible blue sky
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 92 13:51:15 GMT

In article <1992Nov9.031341.8468@umr.edu> tonyp@cs.umr.edu (Tony Phillips
 writes:
>For those of you who read Popular Photography, look in the newest issue
>at the Kodak Ektar awards.  There is a beautiful picture of some hot-air
>balloons rising over a lake.  Notice the blue sky.
>
>My question is, how in the world did the photographer get the sky to be 
hat
>dark, yet the balloons to be so bright?  I would guess the photographer 
asn't
>using a ND grad filter because the balloons aren't darkened.  I've also 
eard
>that a polarizing filter helps darken the sky, but I havn't ever acheive
 
>that startling of a result.
>
>Any insights would be greatly appreciated.
>
>
>-- 
>|  Tony Phillips-  University of Missouri CS Dept.  |  Programming: A no
n   |
>|                                                   |  meaning 'The Art 
f   |
>|  Reply to:  tonyp@cs.umr.edu                      |  debugging a blank
    |
>|  Prefered Address:  S102066@UMRVMA.UMR.EDU        |  sheet of paper'  
    |


  I don't claim i can repeat the result. but i got several
  very dark blue sky. i used polarizer. and i think the sky 
  happen to be very clear. and almost no pollution.
  and if you happen to take the picture at high altitude
  the sky can also become very dark blue. and if you use
  polarizer you can end up with black sky.

    I think we can see those in several picture took on
  the top of mount everest.

  Muskie
  Sofjan Mustopoh
  Smustopoh@nyx.cs.du.edu
From: f88mattb@fy.chalmers.se (Mattias Bryntesson)
Newsgroups: rec.photo
Subject: Re: Creative Backgrounds
Keywords: backgrounds
Date: 11 Nov 92 10:05:49 GMT
Organization: Chalmers University of Technology

Bryan:   a king-size bed sheet?

Mattias: Yes, and dye it in your washing machine - simple but easy ;-)

Bryan:   But, will the washing machine cause the sheet to be dyed evenly,
         or in blotches?  I would prefer uneven blotches.

Mattias: Yes, with the right kind of dye (don't know what you've got
         over there, we use some local stuff, I believe) it will be
         very even. If you want it uneven, I think you'd do better
         painting/dyeing it by hand.
Newsgroups: rec.photo
From: glp@fig.citib.com (Greg Parkinson)
Subject: Canonet GIII QL17
Originator: glp@merlin
Organization: Citibank IBISM
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 16:27:40 GMT


I just came into possession of an almost-mint condition
Canonet GIII QL17.  I've heard that the lenses on these
cameras are very sharp, and they open up to 1.7 - good 
for low light shooting.

It's operation seems pretty obvious so far, but I have
a few questions:

How do you turn off the meter?

The shutter speed dial on the lens has markings for
indoor, cloudy, and outdoor, but there's nothing to 
line them up against!  

To the right of the f-stop numbers, just past the
"A", are the numbers 28 20 14 - any hints?

I've got a flash for it too, but no idea of how
to set it.

Any help would be appreciated and I'd get real excited
if someone actually had a manual I could copy.

Thanks
-- 
Greg Parkinson                  Phone: 212-657-7814  Fax: 212-825-8607
Citibank,111 Wall Street        E-Mail: glp@fig.citib.com
New York, New York  10043
The opinions expressed are my own and not those of the big 'ol bank.
Newsgroups: rec.photo
From: "martin tai" <martin.tai@canrem.com>
Subject: t4/stylus
Reply-To: "martin tai" <martin.tai@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: rec
Date: 6 Nov 92 21:47:56 EST



   In  a  message  from  shams on  T4 /Stylus.

   In terms of  packaging, the  Olympus  Stylus is very compact.
In terms of  optical performance, the  T4  has  a  Zeiss
Tessar  lens, which is  sharp and contrasty.
   Another  P&S worth considering is  a  Leica  mini.  It comes
with  a   Elmar  f 1:3.5/35mm  lens.  The  Elmar lens were
used  on   early  day Leicas, just as the Tessar were used
on  early day  German  Contaxes.   So  for your  SLR, you
have  Japan  optics, for your  P&S you have  German  Optics,
balanced.  Zeiss  or  Leica  optics  is  worth having.
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
From: sm@cel.co.uk (salim mehta)
Newsgroups: rec.photo
Subject: Re: Chasseur d'Images lens test folders info.
Date: 5 Nov 92 10:59:09 GMT
Organization: Crosfield Electronics Ltd.
In-reply-to: gsnow@clark.edu's message of 4 Nov 92 23:00:11 GMT

In article <1992Nov4.230011.13604@clark.edu> gsnow@clark.edu (Gary Snow) wrote:

[re: Chasseur d'Images lens test folders]
> A couple of things I would like to ask:
> 
> 1. Are the Specs in English or French?

French. However the data is presented in graphical form so is fairly easy to
interpret.

> 2. Do you really have to word your FAX to them in French?

You probably don't *have* to, but it's more polite!


--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Salim Mehta                             Phone :  +44 442 230000  x3450
Crosfield Electronics Ltd               Fax   :  +44 442 232301
Hemel Hempstead  HERTS HP2 7RH  UK      Email :  sm@crosfield.co.uk
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
     Alt email :  sm@cel.uucp     ...!{mcsun,uknet,uunet}!cel!sm
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.photo
From: Jimmy.Tung@dartmouth.edu (Jimmy Tung)
Newsgroups: rec.photo
Subject: Re: Advice on Canon 50 mm/f1.8 wanted
Date: 13 Nov 92 01:27:56 GMT
 <BxKAxH.Byw@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0a5@newshost.dartmouth.edu

[some stuff deleted]

>I'm considering buying a second-hand copy of the old 50 mm f/1.8.

>  What I would like to know is how good the old one is compared with the one from
>the II series. Any advice would be welcome.

>  (By the way, am I the only one hearing rumours about a new 50 mm f/1.4 USM ?)


>> It's a good, solid lens.  Metal construction, durable, etc.
                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> I'd take it over that piece of crap II anyday.
>> -Dave

I agree it's a good, solid lens.  But it's suspiciouslly
nonmetallic-like (maybe anodized aluminium?) compared to the old FD
lens.  Certainly has a metal mounting ring, though, compared to the
plastic one on the II.

I've seen a shutterbug add for a 50/1.0 Cannon lens.  Don't remember
the details except that it was way, way out of a student's budget.
Newsgroups: rec.photo
From: fencer@eng.umd.edu (Erwin Moedersheim)
Subject: Vivitar Series 1 T mount
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 92 15:15:53 GMT
Organization: Aerospace Engineering, University of Maryland, College Park
Originator: fencer@apache.eng.umd.edu


I am posting this for someone who does not have access to rec. photo.
Please repond directly to him if you can. 

From "Gordon C Smith, IBM Greenford, UK." <GORDON@ukcevm1.vnet.ibm.com>:

>I recently had a catastrophe with one of my camera lenses. The short 
>of it is that I need a 'Vivitar Series 1 T mount', with an Olympus 
>fitting. They don't make them any more and I can not seem to locate 
>one in the UK, although I'm still looking. Can anyone out there point 
>me at a possible source for this Vivitar 'bit'? (Otherwise I've got
>a perfectly good 450mm f4.5 lens that I cannot use!)
Newsgroups: rec.photo
From: acs@csri.toronto.edu (Alvin Chia-Hua Shih)
Subject: Re: Old & New Canon mix & match ?
Date: 5 Nov 92 15:48:33 GMT

In <1d8ullINN4ob@castor.hahnemann.edu> weinhous@castor.hahnemann.edu (Martin S. Weinhous Ph.D.) writes:

>I have a Canon "system" consisting of two FTB bodies and many
>FL and FD lenses. The time has come to modernize!

Why do you have to "modernize"?

>Is there any way to use FL or FD lenses on EOS bodies? (Canon
>literature lists a "Macro Lens Mount Converter FD-EOS" - does
>anyone know the limitations of this converter?)

Being a macro converter, you can no longer use your lenses to
focus to infinity.  It also requires that you buy a body with
interchangeable screens.  Right now, that means the EOS-1, or
one of the EOS-600 series.

Ask Canon to mail you the literature on the converter.  There
are lots of limitations, and lens incompatabilities.

>Conversely, is there any way to use EF lenses on the FTB bodies?

No.  First, the EF mount is *bigger* than the FD mount.  Second, the
adaptor would have to convert the mechanical aperture setting action
for the old FD lenses into *electrical* information for the EF lenses.
(You can't stop down an EF lens mechanically, so even if you had
stopped-down metering, you're stuck.)

It would require quite the contraption to make EF lenses work!

>By the way, when I ask these questions at local "camera" stores
>I get conflicting answers. I should have gone to the net first!

If you elaborate on why you want to "modernize" we may be able to help
you more.  If you just want autoexposure and motor drive, get a T-90!
There's still some technology in the T-90 that isn't available in any
EOS camera, like multispot metering, and flash exposure lock!  If I
didn't like autofocus so much, and if the FD lenses were the same cost
as EF lenses, I would have bought one!

If you need AF, then be prepared to part with your FD lenses.  After
all, there's no way to make them AF.  (Well, if you do a lot of macro
work, then keep them and use the FD->EOS converter.  Canon's line of
EF macro equipment isn't nearly as complete as the the old FD line.)

>Thanks in advance.

Hope that helps.

ACS

-- 
 ___ ___ ___ ______________________________________________________________
|   |   | __|      Democracy is not a way of getting better solutions.     |
| - | --|__ |           It's just a way to spread the blame.               |
|_|_|___|___|______________________________________________________________|
Alvin_C._Shih____________________acs@csri.utoronto.ca______________________|
From: pdn@fc.hp.com (Paul Nuber)
Newsgroups: rec.photo
Subject: Re: Reliable Strobe System (Speedotron,DynaLite, etc) ?
Date: 12 Nov 92 00:14:44 GMT
Article-I.D.: fc.BxKu0L.51x
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Fort Collins Site
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.8 PL6]

Marc Thompson-Sun-Vienna VA-Systems Engineer (marc@.East.Sun.COM) wrote:

: 1. What would be the minimum amount of strobe power needed to do decent
: head shots, and full body shots (500 w/s, 800 w/s, etc).

For headshots, your flash will be close to the subjects head in an
umbrella or softbox, so 100 w/s will be enough.

I use a White Lightning Ultra 600 (300 w/s) and have plenty of light for
full length shots.  For large groups, I wish I had more.

--
Paul Nuber
pdn@fc.hp.com
Hewlett-Packard Co.
Fort Collins, CO
Organisation: European Space Operation Centre (E.S.O.C)
Date: Thursday, 12 Nov 1992 10:45:37 CET
From: <MPOISSON@ESOC.BITNET>
Newsgroups: rec.photo
Subject: Re: Chasseur d'Images lens test folders info.
 <1992Nov4.230011.13604@clark.edu> <SM.92Nov5105909@suns2.cel.co.uk>
 <1992Nov07.173531.16475@bmerh85.bnr.ca>


I am somewhat surprised at this ongoing debate about Faxing Chasseur
d'Images in French.

The question which begs to be asked is : Why do otherwise ? It is a
French language magazine, published in France. The fact that it appears
to be the single source for reasonably good lens test is probably quite
distressing to all the hard-core anglophones out there...

Meanwhile perhaps they should ask themselves how promptly any US
magazine published in American english would respond to mail in
various languages such as French, for starters or Breton or Basque
to name but a few ?!?

On the more positive side I would like to offer assistance to anyone
wanting to communicate with CI. I am in no way connected with them
other than as regular subscriber for a year. I am bilingual in French
and UK english and can be e-mailed at above adress.

Another simple solution would be to 'phone CI and check if anyone there
speaks english which is a likely proposition!

-- Michel Poisson --
From: antonsen@hpcndaw.CND.HP.COM (Tim Antonsen)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 18:15:10 GMT
Subject: Re: wooden tripods
Organization: HP Network and System Management Division
Newsgroups: rec.photo

I highly recommend a good wood tripod for flexibility and durability. 

I've owned a wooden Zone VI tripod (the "lightweight") since 1979, which I use
with my wooden field view. They complement my wooden head.

For many years the Z6 was my only tripod. It's bulky, but actually not much
heavier than a sturdy aluminum model. For *long* walks, I have recently been
taking the field "standard" Bogen (3021?), because it's a little lighter, and
much more compact.  I use the same head on both tripods--the big Bogen unit 
that came with the Z6--and that's where about half the weight is.

However, the Bogen is by no means as useful as the Z6. That wooden sucker has
had its legs in sand, mud, *hot* springs, snow and ice, had its spikes driven
into cracks in rocks, ridden on a roof-rack through rain and bugs and -20
temperatures, and despite having endured all manner of nastiness, it is still
as good as new.

I have never been in a situation where I was limited by what my tripod could
do. It's had its legs in every configuration, from having one leg's tip is
actually higher than the camera itself, to where the legs are splayed so that
the camera is nearly on the ground. Like all tripods, it is less stable at
maximum extension, but is still adequate for most situations.

And while I'm no fan of Fred Picker's art, polemics, or marketing, I have to
say this wood tripod is pretty classy. I have no idea what Z6 is charging
these days.  Too much, I'm sure.

--Tim
From: feltman@hpscit.sc.hp.com (Robert Feltman)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 19:29:06 GMT
Subject: Re: Portrait Lenses (was: Comments on 55mm Takumar for 6x7?)
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Santa Clara, CA
Newsgroups: rec.photo

I have personally shot with the new 55 mm. IMHO it is an incredibly
sharp and contrasty lens.

The old 90mm leaf shutter was not reliable. The new offering is the 165 mm with
a leaf shutter. This should be long enough for portrait.

Bob
From: ray@tsw.UUCP (Ray Izumi)
Newsgroups: rec.photo
Subject: Re: SCUBA questions (new Ektachrome + Nikon Action Touch)
Date: 8 Nov 92 15:05:49 GMT
Organization: The System Works, Redmond, WA

In article <PHILG.92Nov7171443@zug.ai.mit.edu> philg@martigny.ai.mit.edu writes:
>
>1) Does anyone know when the new Kodak SCUBA Ektachrome will be
>available?  Has anyone ever seen it either here or in Europe (where
>Kodak lately seems to be introducing its best stuff first rather than
>here in the Third World)?  I leave for the Great Barrier Reef on Dec
>11th and I'd like to get some by then.
>
I haven't heard about this. Please follow up with a post if you hear any
more about this. Also, you might want to try posting this question to
rec.scuba, which reaches a lot of UW photographers.

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ray Izumi, The System Works, Redmond, WA     206-823-4685      uunet!tsw!ray
"Put the pillow over your head, scream and cry - the garbage is coming!"
           - New York City Commissioner of Sanitation
Newsgroups: rec.photo
From: swanee@megadata.mega.oz.au (Geoff Swan)
Subject: Re: Incredible blue sky
Organization: Megadata P/L, North Ryde, Sydney, Aust.
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 02:16:43 GMT

In article <1992Nov9.031341.8468@umr.edu>, tonyp@cs.umr.edu (Tony Phillips) writes:
> For those of you who read Popular Photography, look in the newest issue
> at the Kodak Ektar awards.  There is a beautiful picture of some hot-air
> balloons rising over a lake.  Notice the blue sky.
> 
> My question is, how in the world did the photographer get the sky to be that
> dark, yet the balloons to be so bright?  I would guess the photographer wasn't
> using a ND grad filter because the balloons aren't darkened.  I've also heard
> that a polarizing filter helps darken the sky, but I havn't ever acheived 
> that startling of a result.
> 
> Any insights would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> 
> -- 
> |  Tony Phillips-  University of Missouri CS Dept.  |  Programming: A noun   |

I suspect thet you have already answered your own question. Although I
have not seen the photo, I have done many that sound similar to it. I
had no reason to use a polariser, simply meter off the "bright" balloons.
You'll find that under a strong direct sunlight that the light from
the balloons is much stronger than that from the sky. In addition you
will be shooting towards the sky which is away from the sun and this is
usually very blue to start with (a good morning shot to do). It's similar
to shots taken in the snow - you can get an almost black sky during the
middle of the day by paying attention to getting detail in the snow.
Have a go at it! You may be pleasantly surprised at what you can get!

Geoff Swan
swanee@megadata.oz.au