From: jcopelan@nyx.cs.du.edu (The One and Only)
Subject: Re: A few facts about circumcision
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Date: Thu, 31 Dec 92 14:52:55 GMT

In article <1992Dec31.131357.29035@ll.mit.edu> yasu@ll.mit.edu (Alan Yasutovich) writes:
>In article <1992Dec30.153958.9735@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> jcopelan@nyx.cs.du.edu (The One and Only) writes:
>>In article <1992Dec30.131744.14414@ll.mit.edu> yasu@ll.mit.edu (Alan Yasutovich) writes:
>>>In article <1992Dec29.191816.8746@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> jcopelan@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (The One and Only) writes:
>>>>In article <1992Dec27.173429.5492@newstand.syr.edu> kgatling@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Keith E Gatling) writes:
>>>>[snip, snip]
>>>>>
>>>>>As I've said before, I'm glad I circumcised because it makes body
>>>>>maintenance so much easier.  Sure, some of you have said that taking care of
>>>>>an uncirucmcised penis isn't that difficult, but let's face it, I don't
>>>>>remember to floss every morning and that's supposed to be easy too.  I gave
>>>>>up on wearing contacts because as easy as they were to deal with, they were
>>>>>more complicated than just reaching for a pair of glasses and being done
>>>>>with it. 
>>>>
>>>>These are reasons for *you* to be circumcised, none of them are reasons for
>>>>you to have your son circumcised.
>>>
>>>	What an illogical statement.  I mean on WHAT OTHER BASIS
>>>	would someone make a judgement about something other than
>>>	personal experience?
>>
>>Well, let's see.  How about REASON, or maybe HUMAN RIGHTS?  I don't understand
>>your complaint.  Are you saying that just because you feel a certain way that
>>we can automatically assume that your child will feel the same way?  How
>>illogical, indeed!
>>
>	Really.  I see.  When I know that my kid will die if she runs
>	in the street and gets hit by a car, how presumptuous of me
>	to think that she would think of this as a negative.

If she did think of it as a negative, it wouldn't be because *you* think so.
And when applied to circumcision, the same applies.

>	"REASON" is used by our own experiences.
>
>	"HUMAN RIGHTS"? What does that have to do with it?

Reason is based partially on experience, but not limited to it.  I am asking
what reason you use to justify infant circumcision.  If your response is to
say "well, I like it so my son will therefore like it too", I'll say you have
no reason to believe this statement, and ask why you think so.  So far, I
have yet to see a satisfactory response and I would claim this is because
you can't know that an infant would desire to be cut or not.  This is where
human rights comes in.  If you can't determine the wishes of the infant then
(barring medical emergencies) when it comes to circumcision, the decision
should be left to the infant when he grows up.

What basis do you use to justify making this decision for the infant?  In
answering this question, I would caution you not to use false analogies
like comparing the circumcision decision to immunizations or any other 
decision that parents make for children.  With circumcision we are talking
about a medically unnecessary procedure, that if done to an unconsenting
adult would result in legal action against those involved.

Jim Copeland
--
Have you washed your brain today?
Xref: sparky misc.kids:31350 soc.men:21974 alt.atheism:24725