From: stacey@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu (Stacey B. Martin)
Subject: Re: Critical Thought
Originator: news@essex.ecn.uoknor.edu
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 16:18:59 GMT
Organization: AUS
Followup-To: alt.pagan

In article <1993Jan25.193312.27059@coe.montana.edu>,
uphrrmk@gemini.oscs.montana.edu (Jack Coyote) wrote:
> 
> In alt.pagan, cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) and adams@spss.com
> (Steve Adams) write:
> 
> Janis>I can say plainly that I don't know any catholics and never have
> Janis>that actually think too long on that old line about transubstantiation.

	Somehow I missed this original post, but as another person-raised-catholic
	(does it look to you like all the catholics have turned pagan? :-) ), I
	spent a lot of time thinking about transubstantiation. (This really is
	leading somewhere, I think.) 
 
>   (as another person raised catholic)... a lack of critical examination seems
> to be the rule rather than the exception for most religions. In regards to
> Catholicism/Christianity, it is easy to see why a careful examination of ritual
> cannibalism/diabolism is not easily faced (turning a death cult into a life
> cult entails paradox).

	It's not a death cult at all. Inherent in life is death; from death comes
	life. Any pagan myth or ritual, any observance of the cycles of the earth,
	any religion is based upon this. 
 
> Janis>I mean, it TASTES like a cracker, for God(tm)'s sake!  How the HELL is
> Janis>this going to be someone's flesh?  

	It's never going to be someone's flesh in the literal sense. It still
	looks like a piece of bread (nowadays, anyway :-) ). But, in transub-
	stantiation, it just is what it is. As God saying in the OT I am who I am.
	On a smaller level, all humans take that same state of beingness: I am
	who I am and what I am. So that when in the RITUAL (which the consecration
	is) the priest repeats Christ's words that this is my body and blood,
	it just IS. (I'm not arguing here the validity of Chrisitianity or
	Christ or the Pope. I'm only speaking of transubstantiation.)

	Doing magical ritual is no different. I happen to buy what J. Campbell
	says - that ritual is the enactment of a myth. (And, please, no
	comments to the effect that a myth is a lie. A myth is NOT a lie.) 

>   Allegory & metaphor (never mind that the priesthood are too thick too get it)

	Catholicism has never been allegory and metaphor. It's loaded with
symbolism
	and ritual. And, yes, the priests get it. :-) 

	Janis, there's a book called, "On Growing Up Catholic." If you haven't
read
	it, it has a statement which seems most appropriate; "Catholics believe
	most deeply in things they least understand." I think it's what gives
	us that slightly bizarre trait of being able to believe that ANYTHING
	is possible. :-) I also very much liked your statement about Catholicism
	keeping us from God. OH, YES. Campbell says that all Western religious
	traditions, including Judaism, are religions of exile - separating man	
	from God. It's a terrible, terrible place for a person to be. And,
	especially, for women, who are not even allowed to enact the ritual,
	to be the priest. 

	My first thought while doing my first magical ritual was that oh, god,
	I finally get to be the priest - I finally get to do this myself.
	WHAT A RUSH.

 Stacey