HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: learn@speedy.acns.nwu.edu (William J. Vajk)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: GATEWAY/WINDO ALERT
Date: 14 Sep 92 18:27:56 GMT
Organization: Dares No Organization Like Dis Organization

In article <199209141552.AA08518@eff.org> James P Love writes:
>                    Gateway/WINDO - SEPTEMBER ALERT

>THE SCOOP

[Unsubstantiated political nonsense deleted for brevity.]

>WHAT YOU CAN DO

>Clearly time is running out.  The most important thing that you
>can do is contact your congressional representative and ask them
>to urge the congressional leadership to move these bills.  It is
>particularly important to contact members of the House of
>Representatives, including the House leadership and republicans
>on the House Administration Committee.  The names, telephone
>numbers and address for key legislators are given below.


The most important thing the EFF could do is to communicate just what 
the bills mean, and take a public position on them rather than simply 
asking readers to blindly snap to attention to follow some unstated agenda.

It is very difficult to "follow orders" from a group which has appointed 
themselves guardians of the future of electronic communications yet
is unable to put together a reasonable call for action (can you say,
'they don't know how to communicate' ?? Or even worse, assuming they
do know how, why do they steadfastly refuse to ??)

Is the EFF, instead of helping, becoming instead just another part of 
the problem?

Bill Vajk
Xref: sparky comp.org.eff.talk:5803 sci.econ:7454
From: wkaufman@us.oracle.com (William Kaufman)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,sci.econ
Subject: Re: Want _Your_ Blood to Boil
Date: 12 Sep 92 06:10:49 GMT
Followup-To: sci.econ
Organization: Oracle Corporation, Redwood Shores CA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

In article <1992Sep10.140032.9364@tijc02.uucp> pjs269@tijc02.uucp (Paul Schmidt) writes:
] mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
] : 
] : No, what he is saying, in effect, is that for those things which they
] : could use if someone else bought them, many people will not chip in
] : 'their share'.  A study of the concepts of 'externality' and 'public
] : good' would seem to be in order.  This is the biggest whole in the
] : whole libertarian economic argument.
] : 
] : [See any reasonably decent economics textbook.]
] 
] Are you talking about the "free rider" problem?  This is dealt with in
] several books.  One example is that if my wife grows pretty flowers,
] should the neighbors be forced to pay for her labor since they enjoy
] them?  The answer is that this is not only silly but it would be immoral.

    No, a useful example goes like this.  Who repaves the road in front
of your house when the goverment goes berry-up?  You and your neighbors,
I suppose.  Who decides the fair payment for the road repair?  And what
if one of your neighbors couldn't afford to pay for it, or just plain
refused to?  Would you *not* pave the road?  Or would you try to somehow
force the recalcitrant neighbor off the road when he tries to drive on
it?

] Other examples are torn apart, such as the lighthouse example.

    How?  By letting boats crash up on the shore, no matter how many
die, or what it does to the local economy?  Or do you have a method of
extortion that's somehow "fair" under Libertarianism?

    The lighthouse example *is* weaker, because there's an economic
advantage to be had by building lighthouse: fishermen make more money
alive than dead.

    But there exist externalities--like roads, like police and fire
protection, like toxic waste regulation--which have no economic
advantage, or for which the advantage is poorly evaluated by the market,
which should neverless be done.

    Forwarded to sci.econ, where this belongs, and where it can be
properly dealt with.

                                           -- Bill K.

Bill Kaufman,          | "Hush my darling / Be still my darling /
Corporate Lackey       |  The lion's on the phone,..."
wkaufman@us.oracle.com |              -- "The Guitar", They Might Be Giants
From: Cherie.Ballard@f101.n382.z1.fidonet.org (Cherie Ballard)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: EFF in Austin?
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 92 16:55:47 PST
Organization: FidoNet node 1:382/101 - ALIAS BBS, Austin TX

I vaguely remember a message about a local chapter of EFF in Austin.  Please
let me know who to contact regarding this chapter, if you know who he/she is
-- Thanks!  I'm one of the sysops of a BBS for Austin area attorneys.  We (the 
BBS) are interested in getting involved.  Also, Gregg Perry and myself (the
sysops of ALIAS) are spearheading a Computers and the Law section of the
Travis County Bar Association and we'd like to talk to folks about possible
speakers for our meetings (once we get off and running).  We think that the
members of the legal profession need to know more about the issues EFF are
involved in and we would like to be part of getting the word out.  

Thanks again for any info and help!

Cherie


--  
uucp: uunet!m2xenix!puddle!382!101!Cherie.Ballard
Internet: Cherie.Ballard@f101.n382.z1.fidonet.org
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
From: newsham@wiliki.eng.hawaii.edu (Timothy Newsham)
Subject: policy
Organization: University of Engineering, College of Engineering
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 21:08:49 GMT


From wiliki!tim Sat Sep 05 10:58:55 HST 1992
From: Wes.Perkhiser@ivgate.omahug.org (Wes Perkhiser)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: CURIOUS
Date: 09 Sep 92 14:05:32 CST
Reply-To: wes.perkhiser@ivgate.omahug.org
Organization: 
Followup-To: comp.org.eff.talk

In a message of <07 Sep 92 21:51:55>, Bob Mcgrath (11:30102/2) writes:

 BM>(From: Bob.Mcgrath@f69.n104.z1.fidonet.org (Bob Mcgrath))
 BM>(Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/69 - TelePeople{sm} Memb, West Adams 
 BM>County)
 BM>
 BM>Are my questions, addressed to either the sysop or to other users, all 
 BM>sent internationally?  

Yes.

 BM>Or did I simply punch the wrong response, and 
 BM>send my question across the international timeline?

I don't know how it happened.  BTW, where is Wes Adams County?  

Wes
From: hagstrop@oberon.mathcs.carleton.edu (Paul Hagstrom)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: CONGRESSIONAL RECORD ON-LINE
Date: 6 Sep 92 17:48:55 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: bbn.com

In article <YW0JCL5@taronga.com> peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes:
> In article <21778.2AA9BC4B@puddle.fidonet.org>  
Claude.Vanhorn@f69.n104.z1.fidonet.org (Claude Vanhorn) writes:
> >            2)    Mandate that every publicly accessible comput-
> >                  er network provide a quantity of node connec-
> >                  tions to this computer so that any person
> >                  accessing the network would be able to type "C
> >                  RECORD" or some simple identifier and be
> >                  connected to this archive.  The FCC could
> >                  mandate this, though I suspect the networks
> >                  might actually cooperate without it.
> 
> I don't care for this sort of government interference.
> 
Agreed, BUT the idea is still a good one, I think.  Making the congressional  
record WAISable or Gopherable, for example, would increase the readership  
immensely, I'm sure.  It wouldn't be necessary to mandate such a thing; the  
voluntarily increased readership would be much, much better than the lack of  
knowledge of the content that exists now.

A Question, though: What is the status of this suggestion?  Is it just a  
suggestion to a newsgroup, or has this been suggested to "officials"?  Or is  
this farther along than that?
--
schmotsignature.
Paul Hagstrom
(hagstrop@carleton.edu)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: Want _Your_ Blood to
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 18:48:22 GMT

In <1992Sep10.140032.9364@tijc02.uucp> pjs269@tijc02.uucp (Paul Schmidt) writes:

>Are you talking about the "free rider" problem?  This is dealt with in
>several books.  One example is that if my wife grows pretty flowers,
>should the neighbors be forced to pay for her labor since they enjoy
>them?  The answer is that this is not only silly but it would be immoral.
>Other examples are torn apart, such as the lighthouse example.

This is indeed part of the problem, but the use of the name 'free
rider' doesn't really convey the totality of the problem.  I have
frankly never heard an argument that adequately 'tears apart' this
concept, except for the use of deliberately contrived examples.  This
is not something someone just 'invented'; it is a real-world
phenomenon that (economically speaking) a good will have resources
under-allocated to it (based on free market allocation) if it has
externalities compared to what would be allocated TO THE SAME GOOD if
it had no externalities.

-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
From: learn@speedy.acns.nwu.edu (William J. Vajk)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: GATEWAY/WINDO ALERT
Date: 15 Sep 92 04:39:00 GMT
Organization: Dares No Organization Like Dis Organization

In article <1992Sep15.013639.5084@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> Joe Francis writes:

>In article <1992Sep14.233719.9972@news.acns.nwu.edu>
>learn@speedy.acns.nwu.edu (William J. Vajk) writes:

>> This is the point, Joe. The people at the EFF office seem to have
>> lost sight of some real basics.

>Hmmm.  In the past I have found that the people at EFF have been very
>good at "the basics".  Rita and others at EFF have always answered my
>questions and responded to my suggestions.  I have every reason to
>believe that someone at EFF will answer the question to my
>satisfaction. 

That's very nice, Joe. But have you considerd the elementary problem
at play here? The thread discusses some bills before Congress, and
asks us to write to the congresscritters without telling us anything
substantive. EFF is an advocacy organization, is it not? So why can't
the communicators communicate without having to be asked each time for 
the substantiation?

All the message says is that the best thing we can do is to get the
bill moving. Nothing about the issues involved. "The basics" include
not having to drag information out of them, you know. Seems to be much
like a lot of the manufacturer's software manuals. If you already know
and understand the software, the manuals make a lot of sense.

Bill Vajk
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
From: jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala)
Subject: Re: Wanna See Something Really Scary?
Reply-To: jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 09:21:37 GMT

In article <9209140744.AA00451@_farbrent_>, farbrent!ajr3@ms writes:
>I thought I'd pass it along for your opinions.

I don't quite get this.  First the poster farbrent!ajr3 (or is it
Latanya, sweeney@husc3.harvard.edu) warns the net about a conspiracy
to disrupt the community, then proceeds to try to destroy the net
(imminent death of the net predicted).  Is he/she trying to say that
he is part of the conspiracy he/she reports?

//Jyrki
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
From: learn@speedy.acns.nwu.edu (William J. Vajk)
Subject: Re: GATEWAY/WINDO ALERT
Organization: Dares No Organization Like Dis Organization
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 23:37:19 GMT

In article <1992Sep14.224351.29144@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> Joe Francis writes:

>I'm confused.  First I see an article from someone who is not speaking
>for EFF, then I see the article echoed by someone who does speak for
>EFF, but with no further explanation.  Am I to take it that EFF agrees
>completely with Mr. Love's evaluation and recommendations?  If so,
>would someone at EFF please say so?

>Apologies if EFF has already made this point clear; I must have missed
>it.

This is the point, Joe. The people at the EFF office seem to have
lost sight of some real basics. Supposed to be able to do some
communicating and educating rather than the usual "Good grief Bill"
garbage with some handwaving. 

Interestingly, the problem doesn't go away with the sort of response 
the official spokesperson put online today. It is NOT a good idea to
beat up on the gadfly, you know. 

Bill Vajk
From: Gary.Pustizzi@f346.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Pustizzi)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Curious
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 92 09:21:00 PST
Organization: FidoNet node 1:101/346 - Beta BBS, Newton MA

          Bob Mcgrath wrote

I'm curious about what this BBS specializes in. Signed new user.


       Don't know, but you have sent this question *internationally*.
===
 * TLX vE=MC * Press <Z> for a special surprise.........(click)



--  
uucp: uunet!m2xenix!puddle!101!346!Gary.Pustizzi
Internet: Gary.Pustizzi@f346.n101.z1.fidonet.org
From: Brian.Lane@p0.f162.n138.z1.fidonet.org (Brian Lane)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Taxes -n- Stuff
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 92 11:57:08 PST
Organization: FidoNet node 1:138/162.0 - Callahan's Place, Ashford WA

In a message of 29 Aug 92  01:02:34, Purple Haze... wrote:

PH> > No matter how you slice it, unless you think we can live without a
PH> > government, we need taxes or their equivalent...
PH> 
PH> A volunteer government would put an end to corruption.  A volunteer
PH> government
PH> that decided what aspects of society were in need of 'repair' and made it
PH> known
PH> to the populance.  Then the people could decide if they wanted to feed the
PH> infirm or to build a Whaling museum.

  A movie that comes to mind during all this discussion is Jimmy Stewart's Mr. Smith Goes to Washington.  Mr. Smith is my Ideal of how a government official should be.  Until it happens, I'll be happy to live out here among the trees.

   -Brian


--  
uucp: uunet!m2xenix!puddle!138!162.0!Brian.Lane
Internet: Brian.Lane@p0.f162.n138.z1.fidonet.org
From: Patrick.Martin@f825.n102.z1.fidonet.org (Patrick Martin)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: 02/EFFector Online 3.04 F
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 92 15:52:19 PST
Organization: FidoNet node 1:102/825 - Sahara Club BBS, Sepulveda CA

From: patrick.martin@f825.n102.z1.fidonet.org
 
Quoting Rita in the Effector Online vol. 3.04 that she posted 11 Sept 92
 
RMR>Each of us, who is a member of a BBS community, has equal opportunity to
RMR>introduce and discuss issues, but very limited decision-making tools.
RMR>Even so, these systems are proving themselves to be powerful political
RMR>tools.  In Santa Monica, where there is a city-provided computer network
RMR>with a public BBS, the on-line citizens have been able to coerce their
RMR>lawmakers into opening the public beach showers in the early morning so
RMR>that the homeless can clean up and possibly find work.  On the
RMR>Association for Progressive Communications (APC) networks, EcoNet,
RMR>PeaceNet, and others, 10,000 peace and environmental activists world-
RMR>wide participate in discussions and organize for actions with the goal
RMR>of saving the planet.
 
Hi Rita,
 
Though unsure whether Randy Bush's import of EFF stuff to FidoNet is a
two-way transmission or not...  here goes, I just had to respond to this
one and I hope that it get back to you.
 
Is it safe to assume that with the bringing of Cliff aboard we'll be
seeing more of the `subliminal' environmental as above?  Many, myself
included, view much of the environmental movement as EXTRMEIST.  If this
was used as an example only then I have no problem.  If we are to expect
more environmental related messages then I'll have to find another
newsletter to carry on my board.
 
This sort of thing has NO place whatsoever in the EFF newsletter.
 
Regards,
 
Patrick Martin
 
 
 * OLX 2.2 * 0171
---RyPacker v2.42 e

--  
uucp: uunet!m2xenix!puddle!102!825!Patrick.Martin
Internet: Patrick.Martin@f825.n102.z1.fidonet.org
From: dcgreen@pro-harold.cts.com (David Green)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: comp.org.eff topics (was: something about taxes, etc.)
Date: 11 Sep 92 16:37:01 GMT
Organization: The Harold Network -- An Alliance For Creative Communication

In comp.org.eff.talk you write:

>In article <i906143@pro-harold.cts.com> 
>dcgreen@pro-harold.cts.com (David Green) writes:
>
>>For the benefit of newcomers such as myself and the members of Pro-Harold 
>>(my BBS), what are some _normal_ comp.org.eff topics?
>
>	Comp.org.eff.talk is an unmoderated group, which means that
>people can pretty much talk about anything they darn well please
>without interferance from us.
>
>	However, we hope that people will use the group to talk about
>the sorts of issues the EFF addresses.  Such as civil liberties with
>respect to comptuters, privacy issues, universal access issues,
>telecom legislation, etc.
>
>	I've noticed that most threads eventually devolve into debates
>over libertarianism for some reason.

Rita, thanks for the reply. If the newsgroup stuck to the issues you
mentioned, I'd stick around, but the volume of off-topic stuff is just too
great. I have to pay long distance rates to get this feed for my BBS, and I
can't afford to keep paying for so much stuff that has nothing to do with
what I was hoping to find here.

If you wish to reply to me, please do it by e-mail, as I'm going to cancel 
the group and just get comp.org.eff.news. At least then I'll get what I'm
paying for, even though it won't allow for me to participate.

Thanks, Rita!

David :>


===========================================
David Green      dcgreen@pro-harold.cts.com
-------------------------------------------
     System Operator of Pro-Harold BBS
   "Moral Support For Intelligent Sorts"
===========================================
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,talk.politics.misc,alt.society.civil-liberty
From: wcs@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (Bill Stewart 908-949-0705 erebus.att.com!wcs)
Subject: Re: Want _Your_ Blood to Boil too?
Organization: Libertarian Politicians and other Loud People
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 02:00:19 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.misc,alt.society.civil-liberty
Keywords: Death, Taxes, NOT EFF, 

Folks, we've wandered far afield from anything resembling the EFF.
Let's move this to talk.politics.misc, or alt.society.civil-liberty, 
which are better suited to the topic at hand...

]RD> It's protection money.  If taxes were _really_ in return for all the
]RD> benefits I recieved from it, they wouldn't need to make it
]RD> involuntary.  I'd gladly pay for what I used.  Nor do I even want 99%
]RD> of the "benefits" I recieve.
]  Yep, just a large sized Mafia.  At least with the Mafia you know what you're paying for!

]RD> "America!  Love it or leave it, hippie scum!"
:-)
And when anybody *did* try to leave, those same folks always got *real* upset!

Many people say we've got the best politicians money can buy.  Nonsense - 
you ought to be able to buy better politicians than that!
-- 

				Pray for peace;      Bill
#Bill Stewart 908-949-0705 wcs@anchor.ho.att.com AT&T Bell Labs 4M312 Holmdel NJ
# Any technology distinguishable from magic is not sufficiently advanced ...
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
From: at887@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Scott Butler)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Eddie Argo, where are you? (book search)
Date: 10 Sep 1992 19:16:19 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Distribution: inet
Reply-To: at887@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Scott Butler)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc4.ins.cwru.edu


Perhaps some kind soul in NetLand can help me out.

Years ago I read a piece of fiction about a guy (I think that the 
character's name was Eddie Argo) who was a computer programmer for 
the city of Buffalo NY.  The character fakes his own death, steals 
a van and a computer,  and becomes a hi-tech Robin Hood, travelling
around the country hacking into systems to "steal from the rich and 
give to the poor".  I've been looking for the book the past couple 
of years but am a little bit hamstrung by the fact that not only 
can't I remember the name of the book, I *also* can't remember the 
name of the author.

Can anyone help me out?  I'd like to find out (at least) the name
of the book and the authors name.  The publisher and publication 
date would also really be helpful.

Thanx a lot!


-- 
Scott Butler
------------
100% disclaimer-free!
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
From: jon@afs.com (Jonathan Hendry)
Subject: Re: Want _Your_ Blood to Boil too?
Distribution: USA
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 14:29:21 GMT

In article <h2jn_2_.avery@netcom.com> avery@netcom.com (Avery Ray Colter)  
writes:
>If enough of us want more specific, line-item taxation, it will become
>reality. Bush wants line-item vetos so he can pass all military taxes
>and kill all civil aid and educational ones. If he wins that, so be it,
>but when a Democrat gets in the white house, the militarists' own weapon
>will be used against them. Maybe then we will have the day when schools
>get all they want and the Air Force has to have a bake sale.

>Something to think about, all you Republican line-item-heads.

I'm all for a line-item veto, But perhaps we should have a line-item override,  
too?

--
Jonathan Hendry  Anderson Financial Systems
jon@afs.com  (Nextmail Welcome!) or hendryjw@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu
Xref: sparky comp.org.eff.talk:5818 comp.unix.bsd:5666 comp.os.mach:1276 misc.int-property:982 alt.suit.att-bsdi:301
From: burtond@novavax.UUCP (Donald B. Burton)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,comp.unix.bsd,comp.os.mach,misc.int-property,alt.suit.att-bsdi
Subject: Re: Are you sure UNIX is a trade mark?
Date: 14 Sep 92 04:15:01 GMT
Organization: Nova University, Fort Lauderdale, FL


let me add my own .02 worth into this copyright/infringement
potpourri.  and i quote from isbn 0-201-06196-1
the_design_and_implementation_of_the_4.3_bsd_unix_operating
... by samuel j. leffler et al

on the page with the copyright and the publisher information etc
theres a paragraph that states

'UNIX is a registered trademark of AT&T Bell Laboratories in the United
States and other countries...'

so.  we are now no smarter than when we started?
i forgot what we were discussing.  actually, i have heard of this
purely as a rumor--the death-star <well thats what i call it> symbol
you know, the orb made with line-art so often seen with at&t logos
was once untm-ed and un <c>-ed.  then some joe-schmoo noticed and
copyrighted it before the execs at at&t realized.  at&t had to
pay him $$$ to buy it back/pay royalt etc.  anyone ever heard of this?
truth?

<this is the signature>
From: jcf@world.std.com (Joseph C Fineman)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,alt.allsysop,alt.bbs.ads,co.general,nyx.mis
Subject: Re: Back to Taxes again (was Re: Want _Your_ Blood to Boil too
Date: 11 Sep 92 01:38:37 GMT
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA

Idle thought in the midst of this:  I couldn't find a newsgroup with
"libertarian" in its name.  Why not?  Why has this discussion settled
*here*?
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk