From: sjs28257@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Steve Stelter)
Subject: Re: Next Swars movieskip
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 04:18:53 GMT

un032221@wvnvms.wvnet.edu writes:

>In article <BwsrM0.34p@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, sjs28257@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Steve Stelter) writes:
>> 
>> Editing the books enough to make them even remotely close to the Star Wars
>> genre would take so much effort that Lucas might as well just write a 
>> completely mew story himself.  I agree that the books are garbage.

>	I disagree.  They have all the pieces for the Star Wars genre.  They
>are fast paced, have a mix of ship-ship battle, and person-person, they (as
>someone pointed out earlier) have alot happening in few locales, they involve
>the main characters depending on each other's skills to bail them out (and not
>just Luke's Jedi skills).  They are perfectly acceptable SW material.
> 

I agree: the elements were there.  But the presence of a story in the Star
Wars universe and the presence of some of the superficial elements of the
Star Wars genre does not guarantee a story in the Star Wars tradition.
Gone is the character development that is central to the story in the movie
trilogy, the visual appeal that the movies had, and the neato dialogue
that the movies had.  We're left with a fairly bland story that takes place
on a much smaller scale than did the films.  Instead of battles that 
decide the fate of the entire Rebellion, we have petty conflicts revolving
around Thrawn's attempts to obtain some extra ships.  Instead of grand
lightsaber duels between opposing Jedi, we have Luke and C'baoth standing
around powerless due to the omnipresent ysalamiri.  Instead of an ongoing
romantic tension between main characters, we have Mara the Ice Queen 
hassling Luke while Han and Leia fret because they aren't spending enough
time together.

Nothing that happens in the novels is physically impossible or logically
inconsistent with what happens in the films.  But the emotional element
is just not there.

>> The villains are nondescript and almost completely devoid of menace.

>	I'm sorry, having a psycho Jedi master is scarier than the stinking
>Emperor.  The Emperor, you always knew what he was going to do and say, with
>C'Baoth (sp?) you never know what that crazy fucker is up to.  

>The Noghri are
>the evil turning good characters, like Vader in the trilogy, and if demonic
>asassins aren't menacing, you're fucked in the head.  

Hmmm...sounds like a flame.  :)   The Noghri failed to impress me because
a) despite their reputation, they pretty much failed at everything they
tried, and b) once we get to know them, we discover that they're not all
that scary after all.  They work for the Empire because they feel they
owe the Imperials, not because of any inherent viciousness they possess.
They're victims of society, so to speak.  I grant that Rukh is a pretty
nasty customer, but he seems to be the exception: the other Noghri seem
fairly nice and gregarious.  They didn't "turn" good; they were always
that way.  They weren't evil, just misunderstood.  And for that reason
they failed to menace me. 


>Thrawn is the scariest. 
>What is more dangerous than an enemy that knows you're moves before you do? 
>I'll admit, the reasoning was weak.  Ok, so one major discrepancy isn't that
>bad.  Certainly not enough to make it "garbage".

Thrawn is dangerous, yes.  But just because he's dangerous doesn't necessarily
mean that's he's scary.  He's just a guy who hangs around on his flagship
and schemes.  He seems not so much evil as logical, like a Vulcan or a 
Droid.  I understand and agree that he poses a great danger to the Rebellion
because he's such a brilliant strategist, etc., etc.  But again, the emotional
impact just isn't there.  We haven't yet seen Thrawn go head to head with
our heroes; Luke and company have just recently learned the guy's *name*,
for Vader's sake.  He's an impersonal sort of villain.  And for that reason
he failed to menace me.


>>  We
>> have Thrawn, who can predict the entire military strategy of a species
>> just by looking at a piece of sculpture.  Not only is this rationale for
>> Thrawn's military expertise ridiculous (even for the Star Wars universe),
>> it is totally unnecessary: it is enough (and, IMHO, more effective) to
>> say that Thrawn is a successful tactician because he's a smart guy with
>> lots of skill and cunning, and let it go at that.
>> 
>	Ok, this I agree with, but you have to realise that if he knew what
>they were going to do, and didn't explain it off somehow, you'd be bitching
>about how they didn't explain it, and you know it.

Don't try to guess at what I do or do not know; I can express my own 
thoughts well enough.  And here they are: In the films, the various bad
guys are pretty good at predicting what the good guys are up to.  We
don't get an explanation of how they managed to figure things out, but
nobody bitches about it.  In ESB, Boba Fett follows the Falcon to Bespin.
How'd Fett know about Han's trick to escape with the Star Destroyer's
ejected trash?  It's never explained, because the audience can already
guess the answer: Because Fett is a clever guy.  No explanation is
necessary.  On the other hand, if it is revealed that Fett was able to
discern Han's strategy just by studying a picture of Han from his high-
school yearbook, then that might be construed as an excessive leap in the
logic department.  So it is with Thrawn and his art.

>> C'baoth is pathetic.  He steals Force powers and dialogue directly from
>> Vader and the Emperor, yet is less menacing than either.  We are supposed
>> to fear C'baoth because he hopes to subvert Luke to the Dark Side, but
>> did anyone think, even for a minute, that Luke would be fooled even for
>> a moment by this old coot when his own father couldn't convince him to
>> turn to the Dark Side?  Moreover, C'baoth's main strength--his Force
>> power--is usually neutralized by a conveniently located ysalamiri.  Not
>> much to fear from this guy.
>> 
>	Hello, McFly?  C'Baoth doesn'
>t want to turn Luke to the Dark Side, he wants to make him a crazy fucker like
>himself, and had the Ysalamiri not arrived with Mara, he would've succeeded!!!

Not quite.  Luke's discussion with Artoo a few chapters before Mara's arrival
shows that he isn't fooled by C'baoth in the least.  When Mara showed up,
C'baoth had Luke under the influence of some Force-based sleep power that
dulled his senses; however, there is no indication that Luke's emotional
resolve was starting to waver.

>> Pellaeon exists only so that Thrawn can have someone to talk to.  He has
>> no personality of his own.  He's a nobody.
>> 
>	Actually, I kinda liked him.  He was someone to be on our level, as
>sort of Thrawn's disciple.  He was necessary, and is not a main villian, so
>your griping is pointless on this one.

He's not a main villain, true, but since he *is* present a lot, I would've
really liked to have seen at least a shred of depth or development in him.


>> The ysalamiri bit is not only ludicrous (an animal which conveniently 
>> does absolutely nothing except drown out the Force) but tedious, and
>> an obvious plot device.  Whenever Zahn wants to have a Force-using
>> character present, but doesn't feel like accounting for this character's
>> Jedi powers--toss in a ysalamiri!
>> 
>	Would you rathar have had a rock, like kryptonite that shunted Jedi
>powers? 

I would rather have had no anti-Force plot device at all.  Zahn appears to
shrink away from portraying Jedi in all their splendor; perhaps he considers
the full array of the powers of the Jedi too problematic for him.  So he
introduces the ysalamiri as a way to keep Luke and C'baoth (and, to an
extent, Mara) on the back burner, power-wise.

Because of this, I feel cheated.  Luke is a powerful Jedi and can do a lot
of spectacular things with the Force, but we don't really get to see any
of them because Luke spends so much time in the presence of the ysalamiri.
It's a cop-out, IMO.

I'm sorry if this post irritates a lot of you.  I realize that the Zahn
novels are considered terrific by a lot of the readers of this newsgroup.
But I happen to be an exception, and I'm just calling things as I see them.

                             --Steve Stelter
                               sjs28257@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars