HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: v100mfha@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (jen)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: uncontrolable tongues!!
Date: 17 Nov 92 18:28:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

HELP!!

DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY SOLUTIONS ON HOW TO KEEP THE TONGUES OF MY BOOTS IN THE 
CENTER, INSTEAD OF SLIPPING OFF TO THE SIDE.  THERE ISN'T A HOLE IN THE TONGUE
TO PUT THE LACES THROUGH.  

JEN
Organization: Doctoral student, Chemistry, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 13:53:40 -0500 
From: "John B. Randolph" <jr4h+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: KILL THE BEARTOOTHS!

Hello folks,
Well, if you want to kill and destroy a beautiful region adjacent to
Yellowstone - *do not act now*.  However, if enviro-raping isn't your
bag, and have a minute, write a letter (by November 23 - eeeck) or postcard
to
     Curtis W. Bates, Forest Supervisor
     Custer Nat'l Forest
     POB 2556
     Billings, MT  59103

and try to encourage Mr Bates to push for the 'no leasing' alternative.
The Beartooth region of Custer National Forest is a spectacular area NE of
Yellowstone.  It is the largest expanse of alpine tundra in the lower 48.
It is an incredibly beautiful place - I thought more so than Yellowstone
itself.  The forest service, in their less-than-infinite wisdom wants to
open 177,000 acres to oil and gas development.
Take a minute out and try to stop this - it will cost only 29 cents -
substantially less than the dynamite and caps that you'd need to later
on to halt this...

 - John
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: jreece@sousa.intel.com (John Reece)
Subject: Re: The overpopulation problem. NOT!
Reply-To: jreece@sousa.intel.com
Organization: Intel - Information Technologies
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 23:33:29 GMT

In article <1992Nov20.121950.1@vmsb.is.csupomona.edu>, cvakgaaq@vmsb.is.csupomona.edu writes:
> > 
> >>Can I please just exist?
> > 
> > Sure.  There is a 300 sq ft hovel reserved for you in downtown Tokyo.

> 	Racist. The Japanese are some of the finest people on Earth and the
> most efficient; 

Cheerleader.  You may find such institutions as subway pushers a marvel
of theoretical efficency, and the Japanese do seem to tolerate the
situation reasonably well, but I suspect most would prefer room to sit down. 

-- 
John Reece			"This lifeboat is full"	
Not an Intel spokesman
From: mikeq@freddy.CNA.TEK.COM (Mike Quigley)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Guide info
Keywords: guide
Date: 17 Nov 92 18:05:25 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Redmond,  OR.


  In article <Nov17.160809.57935@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU trzyna@CS.
  ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna) writes:
  In article <Bxv5BL.BoL@mentor.cc.purdue.edu mratliff@sage.cc.purdue.edu
  (Michael S. Ratliff) writes:

  I am looking for information on how to become a guide.  What does it take for
  one to call oneself a guide?

  In this country?  A big yellow sign that says "WHITE WATER RAFTING, $30"
  and a moral inclination toward disguising from your clients the fact that
  their lives are at risk.  ...Oh, and maybe a lawyer.

  Not much in the way of certification is required, but you may need a
  concessionaire's permit from the USFS.

In Oregon you need a standard first aid card, 300k liability insurance,
and an application and $50 annual fee to the State Marine Board. 
Easy to fudge the application and insurance, as may ``outfitters'' do.

Mike
From: damouth@wrc.xerox.com (David E. Damouth)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Hunter shoots partner
Date: 20 Nov 92 14:21:45 GMT
Reply-To: damouth@wrc.xerox.com
Organization: Xerox Webster Research Center

re:  ...he thought his partner was a DEER? Since when do humans look
like deers?

Happens all the time.  A lot of those hunters have no idea what a deer
looks like.  If it moves,  they shoot it, particularly if there are twigs
around that sort of look like antlers.

Farmers in that part of the world have been known to go out and paint
the word "cow" in large letters on both sides of all their livestock
just before hunting season.

Illuminated clothing is better than nothing, but the real lesson is to
stay out of the woods during hunting season.
---
/Dave
David E. Damouth
Xerox Webster Research Center
damouth@wrc.xerox.com
voice: 716-422-3186
fax: 716-265-7133
From: jreece@sousa.intel.com (John Reece)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Sanctimonious-JB bashing (was Re: Abbey bashing).
Date: 19 Nov 92 17:21:44 GMT
Reply-To: jreece@sousa.intel.com
Organization: Intel - Information Technologies

In article <1992Nov18.182735.4360@nsisrv.gsfc.nasa.gov>, karl@thuja.gsfc.nasa.gov (Karl A. Anderson) writes:

> Careful, Karl's about to get defensive again.  My post was only to ask whether
> anyone has authoritative immigration statistics. 

Legal immigration is set at about 500,000 per year by law.  Illegal is
anybody's guess, but it at least equals the legal figure.  Most seem to
go to Sunbelt states like California and Florida.

Every now and then environmental groups begin to address the regional
(California) impacts of the resulting population growth.  They are immediately 
slammed as racists by the ethnic activists who stand to gain by immigration, 
and they then drop the matter like a hot potato.

-- 
John Reece			"This lifeboat is full"	
Not an Intel spokesman 			 
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: jahn@guinness.Idbsu.EDU (Greg Jahn)
Subject: Re: Multiplying in the Backcountry (kids/population)
Reply-To: jahn@guinness.Idbsu.EDU (Greg Jahn)
Organization: Boise State University
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 18:19:12 GMT

In article <2931360867.1.p00004@psilink.com>, 
"Michael Smith" <p00004@psilink.com> writes:
|> >DATE:   Thu, 19 Nov 1992 16:50:51 GMT
|> >FROM:   Greg Jahn <jahn@guinness.Idbsu.EDU>
|> [....]
|> > It sure seems to me
|> >that everywhere I've gone there are more people now than before, 
|> >I've certainly seen very distintive changes here, both in town AND
|> >in the backcountry ... [....]
|> > the FACT is population HAS profoundly affected the entry
|> >points to roadless backcountry here in Idaho.  So, who cares what the
|> >statistics and population models say?  LOOK AROUND!
|> 
|> Your toolbox of concepts obviously includes that of population growth, 
|> but you might want to consider adding to it the concept of population 
|> movement. The latter can, in some cases, produce local instances of the 
|> former. In the last few decades, the US population has notoriously shown 
|> a tendency to move West and South, a trend quite clearly encouraged, if 
|> not entirely created, by policy. So your anguish might actually have its 
|> origin in something other than the statistically invisible 
|> philoprogenitiveness of North Americans.

My toolbox includes eyeballs, and I try to use them.  I'm aware of the 
population shift stuff, but this does not dispute the fact that population
increases have affected my immediate surroundings, and the effects of
this are mostly irreversible.  

Scenario - Pristine New York pre-city, then present New York City,
                  current pristine undeveloped parts of the West, then 
                   'hey, I want outa here, it's all messed up, I'll
build a house
                   out west', then  messed up New York City, population
shift
                   out west, messing up out west, then, out west messed
up, 

                'GEE, WHERE DO I GO NOW?????'

btw, regardless of the shiftiness of your perspective,  I still think we got's
more people today than we did ten years ago, ... don't you?


Please, ... this is all meant in good humor, ....

--
Greg Jahn Boise State Univ.|>>>>>>>Official Disclaimer <<<<<<<<<<<<
/ jahn@guinness.idbsu.edu /|" Only the names here are fictitious.
/ dosjahn@idbsu.bitnet    /|  The story, unfortunately, is
/ (208)385-3891.thephone  /|  absolutely true. " - Joseph Brodesky
From: onlit@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Drew)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Grid lines and UTM: Are they related?
Date: 19 Nov 92 23:34:26 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX

Maps made under the British Ordinance Survey have grid lines.  They are really
useful since one can refer to a relatively small spot clearly by using the 6-
digit Grid Reference.  However, maps made by US Geological Survey do not have
grid lines.  Nonetheless, there are UTM markings on the edges and the numbering
looks similar to those of the grid lines in the British maps.  

My question is:  Are the numbering of grid lines the direct derivative of the
Universal Traverse Mercator?  Are they related to each other by any chance?
Any information will be greatly appreciated.  

anDrew  
-- 
+-----------   @}-'--   -----------+  "To Serve, To Strive and Not to Yield"
|      Lee, On-Lit Andrew          |               - Motto of Outward Bound 
|                                  | 
|  email: onlit@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu |  "Your disability is your opportunity"
|  University of Texas at Austin   |               - Kurt Hahn,  
+----------------------------------+                 Founder of Outward Bound 
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: jahn@guinness.Idbsu.EDU (Greg Jahn)
Subject: Re: Multiplying in the Backcountry (kids/population)
Reply-To: jahn@guinness.idbsu.edu
Organization: BSU - Data Center
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 16:50:51 GMT

In article <Nov18.214814.69046@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>,
 trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna) writes:
>In article <10782@vice.ICO.TEK.COM> hall@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Hal F
Lillywhite) writes:
>>There will always be
>>fluctuations in short term population growth.  It would make no
>>sense to apply a long term tool to short term questions.
>
>The world population has been growing monotonically since day one of
>human history.  How is this a short term question?  I think we are
>over-analyzing.
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>The point I'm trying to make is that it is our problem no matter who's
>fault it is.  It's a lot easier to worry about recycling aluminum
cans,
>and stay oblivious to the fact that a billion more people will be
added
>to the population in the next 10 years.
>
>Having more than two kids is wrong in my book, <sarcasm on> even if you
are
>an educated white person <sarcasm off>.

It always amazes me how stubbornly us more digit-head oriented folks
hold onto our theories, suppositions and methodoligies in spite of the
obvious.  Science is a religion, no way around it. It sure seems to me
that everywhere I've gone there are more people now than before, 
I've certainly seen very distintive changes here, both in town AND
in the backcountry ... in particular the biggest impact seems to be on
the edge of the backcountry, where recently new locals and folks from other 
states can take their babies camping.  More rules, more rules enforced, less
options ... the FACT is population HAS profoundly affected the entry
points to roadless backcountry here in Idaho.  So, who cares what the
statistics and population models say?  LOOK AROUND!

To qoute, again,

 "Intelligence is our faculty for not developing what we think 
  to the very end, so that we can still believe in reality."

                                   - Lazare Bickel


--
Greg Jahn Boise State Univ.|>>>>>>>Official Disclaimer <<<<<<<<<<<<
/ jahn@guinness.idbsu.edu /|" Only the names here are fictitious.
/ dosjahn@idbsu.bitnet    /|  The story, unfortunately, is
/ (208)385-3891.thephone  /|  absolutely true. " - Joseph Brodesky
From: dovey@renoir.llnl.gov (Donald Dovey)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Abbey bashing.  Was: Trip rpt: SE Utah 4wd vacation, part 3/4
Date: 16 Nov 92 21:46:25 GMT
Reply-To: dovey@renoir.llnl.gov (Donald Dovey)
Distribution: na
Organization: Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory

In article <Nov12.210156.84624@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>,
 trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna) writes:
>
> > How do I help protect a wilderness without simultaneously
> > reducing my access to it?
> 
> Easy:  have fewer children.

Try one of these instead:

    "Have fewer children than I did."
    "Have few or no children, like I did."
    "Encourage others to have fewer children than their parents,
     like I am doing with this post."
    "Support legislation and legislators that deal with
     population-related concerns."
    "Educate."

Not a flame, but your answer seems too pat.  And by shifting the
responsibility to someone else, you've missed the point.

As for me, since I am planning to retire to the woods next year,
I won't be able to afford children.  :-) :-).

--
Don Dovey                                         dovey@llnl.gov
From: hall@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Hal F Lillywhite)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: FIRST-AIDS KITS
Date: 17 Nov 92 15:40:15 GMT
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or.

In article <1992Nov16.191140.23154@nmsu.edu> lstarrit@dante.nmsu.edu (Larry Way Starritt) writes:

>I would like suggestions on what should be in a Backpacker's
>first-aid kit.

As somebody has already mentioned, what's in your head is much more
important than what's in your first aid kit.  It's easy to load
yourself down with a lot of fancy stuff which is marginally useful.
I suggest that you determine what you need by taking a class (or
reviewing the book if you have already done so).  For each type of
incident you learn how to treat ask yourself:

1.  How likely is it that I will have to treat for this in the
backcountry?

2.  How would I treat for it there (no ambulance will appear in the
next 15 minutes)?

3.  What will I need to perform this treatment.  Be creative,
remember there may be natural equipment available such as sticks for
splinting or you may be able to use something like skis, poles, pack
stays etc?

4.  Can I find something which will work on this and on some other
problem I may encounter?  eg.  An elastic bandage is good for
holding either splints or dressings, and for immobilizing venom in a
snakebite.  Try to use multipurpose items to keep the weight and
bulk down.

Above all, think about what you may have to do and the minimum
equipment you will need to do it.

Two Hints:

Triangular bandages:  Those I've seen sold are grossly overpriced
and too small for use on most adults.  Make some out of old bed
sheets, cut to a generous size.

Keep stuff dry:  I package mine with a "seal a meal."  The plastic
wears out after a while and I have to re-do it.  Since I am a
climber it is necessary to get as much air out of the bag as
possible.  I seal it up once, then heat it in boiling water to make
it expand.  Then I poke a hole in a corner and squeeze out as much
air as I can and re-seal that corner.  If you have access to the
fancy vacuum pack seal a meal, that would be even better.  (Failure
to remove most of the air will result in a rather swollen bag at
high altitude as the air expands.)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna)
Subject: Re: Guide info
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 16:08:09 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department
Keywords: guide

In article <Bxv5BL.BoL@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> mratliff@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Michael S. Ratliff) writes:
>
>Howdy All,
>
>I am looking for information on how to become a guide.  What does it take for
>one to call oneself a guide?

In this country?  A big yellow sign that says "WHITE WATER RAFTING, $30"
and a moral inclination toward disguising from your clients the fact that
their lives are at risk.  ...Oh, and maybe a lawyer.

Not much in the way of certification is required, but you may need a
concessionaire's permit from the USFS.


-- 

-Wayne Trzyna
 trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: bohack@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (edward.e.harstead)
Subject: Re: GoreTex bags (was Re: Light & Warm Syn
Organization: AT&T
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 17:08:32 GMT

I wrote:
>>>After washing a down bag, you are supposed to dry it in a large
>>>front-loading dryer (low heat), with a few tennis balls thrown in
>>>to break up the clumps of down.  So maybe it's time to wash it.

Replies:
>>I cannot recommend this tennis ball trick. I washed my Marmoth Gopher
>>with a special down soap and dryed it (following the instructions) with
>>some tennis balls in a dryer. The bag wasn't usable after that (ok, it
>>is usable in normal conditions, but the Gopher should be comfortable at
>
>I have never heard of using tennis balls, it was always tennis
>shoes.  Something with a little more mass.

Tennis balls were recommended to me, and they worked just fine on
my NF Blue Kazoo.

Perhaps there is a more optimal piece of tennis equipment, such as
the tennis shoes suggested above.  Maybe even a tennis racket for
an expedition bag.

Ed Harstead
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: jhhardy@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (J. Hardy)
Subject: Re: Multiplying in the Backcountry (kids/population)
Organization: Indiana University
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 19:01:23 GMT

In <JEFFK.92Nov17103207@dosXX.med.utah.edu> jeffk@dosXX.med.utah.edu (Jeff Knell) writes:

>   << ...discussion about having fewer children ...>>

><   While I'll agree that the days of having 10 & 12 children are long gone,
><   due to the fact that most of them will survive to adulthood and reproduce
><   (no true that very long ago, in the whole scheme of things). I don't
><   think that limiting people to one or even two children would be good
><   in the US.  If I'm not mistaken, the population of the US has been
><   flat or declining slightly, if you exclude emigrants. ...
>    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
><   Marc

>I do not have the statistics in front of me,
>buy it is my understanding that the population
>of the US, while not growing at third world rates,
>is again growing rapidly.

>I believe that for a short time (70's ?) the
>growth rate was near zero, but the mating
>habits of the baby boomers have change that.

>Anyone out there have the numbers?

While I would be glad to hear that the population is declining, it wouldn't
change my stance on having children.  For my taste there are at least twice as 
many people as there ought to be.  If the population is declining somewhat 
that's great.  I'm still in favor of it declining even more rapidly.

>jeff

>feitctaj

regards

jim hardy
jhhardy@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
From: tucker@shiva.edsg.hac.com (George Tucker)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: The overpopulation problem. NOT!
Date: 19 Nov 92 03:18:00 GMT
Reply-To: tucker@shiva.UUCP (George Tucker)
Organization: Hughes Aircraft Co., El Segundo, CA

In article <1992Nov18.221658.29851@ra.msstate.edu> aw1@Ra.MsState.Edu (Andrew Wargo) writes:
>fact that National Lands exist for all to use, but when someone misuses them
>and protests that it's their land too, it's as idiotic as convicted felons
>demanding the rights of citizenship.

Convicted felons are citizens, and there is no good reason they should not have
all the rights of citizens.  Given the arrogance of govt agents, it cannot
be assumed that a felon is or ever was a bad person.  (The Constitution
unfortunately does not guarantee the right to vote.)

Atheists, draft card burners, marijuana users, abortionists  and flag burners
are also citizens. no matter what some clueless bozo in power thinks.
Let's keep it that way.
   
BTW, it is their land too, and they should be held responsible for keeping it
in good condition, just like a landowner.

	 George Tucker        tucker@shiva.hac.com
	Signature line awaiting FDA approval.
From: drchambe@tekig5.pen.tek.com (Dennis Chamberlin)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Alimeter Watches (Update)
Date: 18 Nov 92 21:30:54 GMT
Reply-To: drchambe@tekig5.pen.tek.com
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.

In article <10769@vice.ICO.TEK.COM> hall@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Hal F Lillywhite) writes:
>
>it measures temperature...
>
Seems the temperature would always read 98.6...

Xref: sparky rec.backcountry:8980 ne.general:3103
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry,ne.general
Subject: When to do The Long Trail?
From: me@stile.stonemarche.org (Mark Eklof)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 23:29:56 -0500
Followup-To: rec.backcountry
Distribution: na
Organization: Stonemarche Network Co-op
X-Newsreader: Arn V1.00 alpha rel3

	I'm considering through-hiking The Long Trail (in Vermont) this
"summer", and can take any (up to) four week period of my choice to do
it.  Given that, when would people who know the trail recommend as the
best time to do it. 

	The two big unknowns for me are when is water usually most
scarce (I'll have my filter), and when do the bulk of the AT
through-hikers generally hit the portion of the trail that concides.
I'm not planning on taking a tent, and don't want to have too much
contention for shelter space (though I will have something I can rig
in case I have to spend a night or two in the rain.  Also, does
Vermont have a blackfly infestation on roughly the same schedule as
New Hampshire (which depends on how far north one is)? 

Thanks,
Mark
-- 
Mark D. Eklof
Cos Grange
Brookline, New Hampshire, USA

me@stile.stonemarche.org

I remember when all this will be again.
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: whitedog@well.sf.ca.us (James Camron Spillman)
Subject: Re: uncontrolable tongues!!
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 16:56:39 GMT

In article <BxvHzG.JuF@acsu.buffalo.edu> v100mfha@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (jen) writes:
>DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY SOLUTIONS ON HOW TO KEEP THE TONGUES OF MY BOOTS IN THE 
>CENTER, INSTEAD OF SLIPPING OFF TO THE SIDE.  THERE ISN'T A HOLE IN THE TONGUE
>TO PUT THE LACES THROUGH.  

Take your boots to a shoe repair shop hand have 'em put little patches of
Velcro(r) on the sides of the tongue and near the lace grommets on the
inside.  That oughta do fine.  works for me!

whitedog

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: stgprao@st.unocal.COM (Richard Ottolini)
Subject: Re: Long-term cave exploration - waste disposal?
Organization: Unocal Corporation
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 18:10:44 GMT

In article <9211191907.AA03650@cs.utexas.edu> wmartin@STL-06SIMA.ARMY.MIL (Will Martin) writes:
>But one aspect was completely avoided, and I wonder what people on this
>group can tell me about it: waste disposal during this long-term
>exploration. It's not like wilderness -- you can't dig a hole somewhere
>for a latrine, or find a "safe" spot to urinate. I would at first
>assume they had some sort of chemical toilet facility, like astronaut
>waste bags or something, to use and then pack out all the waste, but
>the show DID address the difficulty of getting their backpacks through
>the winding maze of passageways on the way in, and it sure seemed to me
>that they just simply could not pack out all the waste water generated
>by this multi-person team over a week-plus period. (They didn't have to
>pack *in* water, since they could use the cave water, so they'd have a
>vast amount greater weight to pack *out* if they had to bring out all
>the waste water.) [I wouldn't think they'd even have containers to hold
>it all!]
>
>So how did they manage?

Same reason Mt. Everest and other places in Nepal have become trash heaps.
(Although the problem has been recognized and is improving.)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: bohack@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (edward.e.harstead)
Subject: Supergaitors
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 18:04:21 GMT

I am looking at insulated supergaitors to add warmth to leather
hiking boots and leather backcountry ski boots, and also to protect
them from crampon points.  I have been able to find only two, both
with Thinsulate on the bottom half of the gaitor.

1. Wild Country Buzzard(?) Supergaitors ($95), with Goretex.

2. Black Diamond Expedition Supergaitors ($90), with Ultrex.

Does anyone have any experience with these?  How do they stand up
to crampon points?  How durable is the rubber rand?  How helpful is
the insulation?  Any others that I should know about?

Thanks for the help,

Ed Harstead
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry