From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Too straight looking
Date: 28 Aug 92 23:41:47 GMT
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison


In article <vanyel.715034350@camelot>
vanyel@camelot.bradley.edu (Alan Williams) writes:

>In <1992Aug28.195245.15205@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>
>ry@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (ryerson.schwark) writes:

[In response to Alan's saying he didn't like faggy folks be
 that was "just my personality" (or words to that effect).

>>If you said it was just a facet of your personality to
>>dislike spics, niggers, kikes and/or homos, how good a
>>defense do you think that would be?

Alan, please think about what he's saying.  He's pointing to
a major inconsistency in your thinking on the issues.  To be
credible, you have to resolve that somehow.

>Did I say anything about *discrimination*?  

Who's this?  Little Bo Peep?  It sure looks like you
said *something* about discrimination, but the issue
there is whether what you say is credible.

>In article <vanyel.715034438@camelot>
>vanyel@camelot.bradley.edu (Alan Williams) writes:

>I don't think *anyone* should be the target of mindless
>discrimination.

The reason this isn't credible is that you deny any and all
connections between things you've said.  The problem here, I
think, is that you can't really expect to hide behind "it's
just my personality [to dislike that faggy stuff].  There is
*real* discrimination in such an attitude.

>I also don't think morons like you have a clue as to how to
>*really* defuse that discrimination, other than to point
>fingers and cast half-truths about others to show the world
>how *baaaad* they are.

It's unfortunate, perhaps, that several posters have lumped
you together with Sarver.  I don't think that's entirely
fair, based on the record of your postings over time, even
though I have vigorously disagreed with you on other
matters.  But in the present thread, you are your own worst
enemy, rhetorically, and because your positions do have a
lot in common with Sarver's, it's not too surprising that
the distinctions between you and him get blurred, to the
detriment of good argument and meaningful discussion.

Insult is actually a very sophisticated rhetorical device,
and it's better not to use it at all than to say something
that is so overweaningly idiotic as calling Ry a moron or
saying he has no personality.  You don't have a lot of
credibility going for your arguments anyway, and that just
squanders your disappearing assets.

>Try reading *all* my posts.  You might learn something.

The natural retort to this is that you should read them
yourself, because they are saying things about you, about your
attitudes toward other people (quite generally, not just LGB
people of various kinds), and so forth.

The reason I stress credibility is really quite simple.
Either you're serious about what you're saying or you
aren't.  With issues as important as these, there isn't that
much middle ground *on the issues*.  And if you're not
serious, then *all* your credibility is shot to hell, and
your only reason to remain in the thread would be to be
obnoxious for its own sake.  Even Sarver is not doing that,
I think.  (Cramer would a good example of someone who is.)

If that's what you want, you make a very large target of
yourself for ridicule.  As Steve Dyer points out, and I think
he's on pretty solid ground, you are not picking up on the
ironies in much of what you say.

When you say ...

>Wake up.

... you are not only co-opting my line (you probably missed
the [tm] mark :-), but you are giving advice you should *take*.

<> Just about all real intellectual activity starts from the
<> understanding that *there is a problem here*, especially
<> in things we take for granted. -- Arnold Zwicky
-- 
Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin
Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson
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