From: ahmed-shakil@cs.yale.edu (Shakil Ahmed)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bangladesh
Subject: Re: Secular, Muslim Brotherhood and Changes
Date: 26 Jan 1993 16:06:23 -0500
Organization: Yale University Computer Science Dept., New Haven, CT 06520-2158
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: curie.systemsy.cs.yale.edu


In article <C1H43B.30w@uceng.uc.edu>, mghayalo@uceng.uc.edu (Manoj Ghayalod) writes:
> In article <1jv3e1INNk4j@CURIE.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU> ahmed-shakil@cs.yale.edu (Shakil Ahmed) writes:

> >Please explain what this has to do with secularism.  Saying that
> >secularism is recognized by the Qur'an is a paradox.  What Surah 109
> >tells us is that there is no compulsion in religion and everyone is
> >free to follow whatever religion they please.  This is *not* the same
>                                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >as secularism.  And while Islam advocates democracy, it does not
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> Please explain this line.  According to what I know about secularism
> everyone is free to follow whatever religion they please.

Just because religious freedom is guaranteed by secularism does not
imply the converse.  Secularism is defined as separation of religion and
state.  Religious freedom simply means that anyone is free to practice
whatever religion they please.  This has nothing to do with separation
of religion and state.  

> >support secularism in the sense the word is used today.  For a
> >Muslim, Islam is a way of life, and hence influences any ideology.
> >
> >It has become very fashionable in the academic world to jump onto the
> >bandwagon of "secularism" and sit content that it is great and that it
> >works.  Does it?  Has it been working in the neighbor the west of
> >Bangladesh?  Does it work in Europe?  I grew up in predominantly Roman
> 
> India is having some problems now, but they will soon be solved,
> do you think India would be better off as an Hindu state? Is Pakistan
> better off because it is an Islamic state?

I would question whether Pakistan is an Islamic state.  As for whether
India would be better off as a Hindu state, I think activities by the
BJP and other supporters of "Hindu India" indicate that that is
unlikely to be the case.  One cannot speak of religious freedom when
places of worship of a particular religion are torn down...

> >Catholic Austria which is run, in theory, by a very secular
> >government.  And yet, you cannot spend a second in Austria without
> >experiencing the religious forces around you.  The holidays, the times
> >that stores open and close, so many laws and practices make the
> >concept of "secularism" laughable.  Look at England.  Every school
> >requires all students, regardless of religious background to say
> >prayers every morning, and in all boarding schools, all students must
> >attend church services.  And it is in England that a court ruled a few
> >years ago that the blasphemy laws only apply to the Christian religion.
> >Still we consider the British government a secular government.  
> >
> I think the US is a better example of a secular state.

You do?  Why is Sunday a holiday here?  Christmas?  New Year's?  What
are the laws generally based on?  What is the basis for evaluating
something as "ethical" or "unethical?"  

> >The fact of the matter is that "secularism" as a concept does not seem
> >to be implementable when there is a distinct majority who have a set
> >of morals and values on which they base their laws.  In many cases
> >this set of values results from an underlying religious base,
> >regardless what the religion may be.  To pretend that the state is
> >independent of religion or collective values and beliefs is
> >self-delusional.
> >
> >What needs to be guaranteed is not "secularism," but religious
> >freedom.  The two are not interchangeable.  Islam guarantees the
> >latter.
> 
> Which Islamic state guarantees religious freedom?  I am waiting
> for your rhetoric "there is no true Islamic state yet".

If you're waiting for it, why do you ask?  Which countries do you
consider "Islamic states?"  Bangladesh is not an "Islamic state" but
Islam is the state religion and religious freedom is guaranteed by law
and by Islam.

-- Shakil

Newsgroups: soc.culture.bangladesh