From: judy@locus.com (Judy Leedom Tyrer)
Subject: Re: 20/20 and Spanking
Organization: Locus Computing Corporation, Los Angeles, California
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1992 03:29:24 GMT

In article <7495@tekig7.PEN.TEK.COM> dank@tekig6.pen.tek.com writes:
>
>As to why parental control is effective on a young child, but not so much on
>an older child, I can suggest two reasons.  One is the parent's superior
>size/strength/cleverness/etc.  I.e. the "it's not a fair match" argument.  But
>this applies to all forms of punishment, timeout, physical restraint, etc.
>Most parents, on both sides of the spanking issue, will not let a toddler
>play with matches, but would not let the toddler prevent the parent from using
>matches.  Independent of the method chosen, the parent is still exercizing
>control based on being "bigger".
>
>The second reason is that I believe small children are aware that they don't
>yet have the ability to deal with the world on their own, and thus are willing
>to accept some parental control and guidance.  As the child grow ups, s/he
>learns how the world works, and becomes more confident is his/her ability
>to deal with what the world dishes out, and therefore is less accepting of
>"interference" from parents.
>
You are completely ignoring cognitive development which I think is a much
more valid explanation.  

First, there is the discipline of the non-verbal child.  Believe me, 
I'm earning my "expert" certificate on this one with a 2 and a half year old 
only just now thinking about speaking (I've had enough evidence of forthcoming 
speech to stop worrying for those who remember my posts of this summer).

Working with a non-verbal child is much more akin to animal training.  One
of our most useful tools in life are words.  Remember the scene in "The
Miracle Worker" when Annie Sullivan first came to work with Helen Keller.
It was extremely difficult when Helen couldn't hear.  Now that was one
out of control kid.

In my experience there are very few stimuli to which the 2 YO will respond.
One is the presence and approval of the parental figure.  Another is
repition and routine.  A third is pain.  But the parental repertoire at this
age is very, VERY limited.

At the age of 2 there is also the disadvantage of a child who really does
not recognize complex relationships, who lives in the here and now, and
for whom everything is hers.  A two year old sees only that "I WANT" and
that's about as far as it goes.  They must be taught to wait (Erin still
throws a fit when I take bread out of the freezer and insist on thawing it
in the microwave before feeding her.  She sees the bread and wants it NOW.
She has been having her bread thaws for her ENTIRE LIFE, but still doesn't
grasp it - we've even let her try eating it frozen and she screams and
throws it down.  Then she screams the whole time it is in the microwave).
They must be taught about taking turns, dangerous environments, etc. etc.

But teaching a 2 YO is a challenge.  It requires constant repition and
practice.  It requires infinite amount of physical and emotional reserve.

Now a 4 year old understands rules, but has no concept of nuances.  For
example, we always read a story before going to bed.  Once Ron and I were
both sick and there was no story.  The circumstances that changed the bedtime
routine just once were beyond Mitchell's ability to comprehend.  The world
had changed.  This is an age where it is either right or wrong, black or
white.  His reaction to no story was "You don't love me any more.  I'm
ruined."  We just couldn't do it.  It was all we could do to get to the
bathroom before throwing up.  

By 8 most children have some concept of relative relationships.  The famous
beaker of water experiment is an example of that.  (I don't have a LOT of
experience with this age so I'm digging through early childhood development
courses I took in college two decades ago).  They can understand things like
it is wrong to lie, but it is better to carefully phrase the truth than to
hurt someone's feelings.

A collegue of mine who has two adult children often tells me "You've got
12 years to train them.  If you haven't taught them by the time they're
13 it is too late."  By this he means basic moral values and ways of
living.  Notice the number of societies that perform rites of passage at
age 13.  You think maybe these people know something?

The fact is, at least from my 4 years of experience, is that what works
today just may not work tomorrow and that you have to constantly adjust
discipline techniques.  The younger the child is, the more often you have
to find alternate methods of accomplishing the same thing.  

I don't think the difference is the size of the child, but the mental
capacity of the child.  And the more the child's mental abilities become
like those of the adult, the less likely the child is to respond to being
treated like a child.  They don't respond to being treated like a child
because they no longer think like a child.  They still don't have all those
years of experience, but they can comprehend the world and see complex
relationships.  They can learn on their own.  

After all, discipline is a lot more than just bullying someone into doing
things the way you want them done.  At least it needs to be.
-- 
Judy Leedom Tyrer

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"	- William Blake
Newsgroups: misc.kids