From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Say it ain't so
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 92 23:48:54 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.082019.28311@Princeton.EDU> niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent) writes:
>In article <1992Dec18.003559.28805@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:

>Of course they do.  And so do police and other witnesses.  But I bet
>that guy's family didn't go around accusing the jury, the police, the
>victim, the mayor, and everyone else in the country of being racist or
>anti-semitic or whatever.  And if they did, I'd argue with them, too.

Come to NYC sometime.  You'll find lot's of people to argue with.

>As with other black leaders, Dinkins is somehow expected to denounce
>anti-semitic or racist blacks all the time, or he must support them.

Koreans are as bitter of Dinkins' reluctance to criticise Black
violence against them as Jews are.  He has displayed bias in his
handling of bias cases.  Imagine that!

>Lets face it, if Rosenbaum had been convicted, no one would be accusing
>Dinkins of anti-semitism right now.  

Wrong, Dinkins and Brown presided over 3 days of one-sided rioting by
Blacks against Jews, doing nothing forceful or effective at all.
Dinkins isn't directly responsible for the murder of Yankel Rosenbaum
but he was very much a participant in the riots that followed.

>So, I can only conclude that they
>are accusing him of anti-semitism because the jury came back with a
>verdict they didn't like and they're frustrated.

Wrong conclusion, David.  You seem to be fond of these.

>Oh, okay.  If you're acquitted and Jake doesn't like the verdict, we'll
>try you until we convict you.  

Have I ever said that?

>We don't actually *know* that the jury was manipulated/terrorized/biased/
>bought-off/racist/stupid, you know.  The only 'evidence' we have of that
>is that they didn't convict who you wanted them to.  It's kind of
>circular reasoning, you know.

No, they didn't convict the most likely suspect, despite considerable
evidence against him.  There are no other suspects on the horizon.

Do you have any suggestions besides: "Let's wait until whoever he is
kills again and leaves plenty of evidence and then we'll get him"?

>>Are white people immune to stupdity now?
>
>Not that I'm aware of.  But it tends to weaken the credence of your
>claim that Nelson was acquitted because black people are anti-semitic
>and don't like police officers.

It would if the jury was 10/12 white.  That was not the case here.

>I didn't realize there was an intelligence test you had to pass to work
>in the press.  Many reporters seem to think so, which is why they're so
>arrogant, which is probably why many people dislike them so much.
>
>But that's irrelevant.  The fact that Abe "Out of my Mind" Rosenthal

Q: Who is viewed more lowly today, lawyers or journalists?  We can
certainly see who YOU are trying to rise up above.

>The two aren't even close.  Starting and encouraging a pogrom is not
>quite the same as being slow to stop riots.

Is this why the 20 people who STOOD AROUND YANKEL ROSENBAUM as he was
being stabbed to death have not been caught nor prosecuted?  

>>If only Israeli treatment of Arabs would be measured in comparison to
>>the way that Arabs are treated in virtually every other Arab state,
>>then people would recognize that Israel is extremely gentle with Arab
>>terrorists.  
>
>But Israel doesn't *want* to be judged by Arab standards, remember?

You missed the important point in my message (something else you are
fond of):
  then people would recognize that Israel is extremely gentle with Arab
  terrorists.  

Instead of accusing Israel of "barbaric" behavior, people should
recognise that Israel has been dealing extremely humanely on a daily
basis with barbarism that Americans rarely, if ever, get to
experience.

>>How many Jews have to actually be killed in New York City before you
>>decide that "pogrom" is an appropriate term?
>
>How many grains of sand in a heap?  I mean, seriously, I didn't realize
>that there was a specific cutoff associated with a pogrom, though I do
>think that it would be higher than 1.

If there is no specific number, then why should it be higher than 1?

>What theory?  The police in LA are now prepared to deal with riots, at
>least for the next few years.  Maybe the police in NY are now too.   But
>the police in LA weren't in April, and the police in NY weren't last year.

Mayor Dinkins and Police Chief Brown have both refused to accept
criticism for this.  Even Dinkins' strong supporters criticise him for
refusing to acknowledge that he made mistakes in the Crown Heights
riots.

>>If I was the only one condemning the acquittal of the only suspect
>>ever arrested in Yankel Rosenbaum's murder (arrested within minutes of
>>the deed and identified by Rosenbaum himself), then your criticism
>>would sound more reasonable.  Unfortunately for your argument, lots of
>>other people agree with me.  They aren't holding by Jake's standards;
>>they are holding by American moral standards.  By these standards, the
>>Jews in New York are being very poorly treated by the authorities
>>today.  Are you going to try and deny this one now?
>
>Yes.  The Jews in New York aren't been treated by the authorities at
>all.  You keep on seeing Lemrick Nelson's trial as a means for justice for
>Yankel Rosenbaum.  It isn't.  It's a means for justice for Lemrick Nelson.

OK, so there is no justice for Yankel Rosenbaum.  Why didn't you just
tell us this at the start?  

>American moral standards dictate that we convict people Jake thinks to
>be guilty?  

No, our moral standards dictate that we protect people who deserve
protection.  The Law, as it now stands, protects criminals far more
vigorously than it protects either victims of crime or law-abiding
citizens who are not yet victims of crime.

>I don't believe so.  

I didn't think so.

>I think American moral standards
>dictate innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

They also dictate an absence of bias in juries.  New Yorkers have seen
too many cases thrown out where considerable and sometimes
overwhelming evidence has been thrown out by minority juries in
support or bizarre acquittals.  The American Justice System itself is
in danger, not to mention individual citizens.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com              10 years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed President.