From: corwin+@CMU.EDU (Scott Safier)
Subject: Re: discrimination at CMU
Originator: scotts@MORPHEUS.CIMDS.RI.CMU.EDU
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University
	<1dp84bINN550@mizar.usc.edu>
	<CORWIN+.92Nov11120016@MORPHEUS.CIMDS.RI.CMU.EDU>
	<1drjnnINNm7g@mizar.usc.edu>
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 21:29:56 GMT

I want to try this again, hopefully being a little less defensive.  i
am arguing this on some local cmu bboards, and sometimes it gets to be
a bit much.  My apologies.  

In article <1drjnnINNm7g@mizar.usc.edu> adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:

   CMU's role is to turn out polished, professional actors.
   Their role is to ask students to (re)learn how to walk, 
   how to talk, how to move their bodies, how to stand still,
   how to cry, how to laugh, how to listen, how to sing, how
   to dance.  A student actor who refuses or is incapable of
   retraining his or her body and/or voice has failed the
   program.  Period.

OK, let's start from this.  I will define what you wrote above as
"refining their talent".  This is CMU's job.  The problem is that at
CMU, the person's progress along these lines is not the only criterion
on which they are judged.  I have already posted that a current
student of Drama has been told, "Your acting work is fine, you're
picking up the technique, but you look effeminate onstage and we can't
have that."  How does one "look effeminate"?  Is this an appropriate
comment to be made repeatedly throughout the year?  Can one person's
opinion of what is effeminate differ from another?

I will tell you that Drama claims students are not cut if they
demonstrate "maturity and talent."  How is someone's "effeminate"
manner related to maturity and talent? (as I told Steve Dyer,
overweight women were also cut.  How does someone's weight relate to
their maturity and talent?)

   > I find the implication that it is OK to force someone to deny their
   > sexuality repugnant, and that is what I view as going on in Drama.

   I don't see that students are being forced to deny their
   sexuality.  I see them as being forced to train their
   bodies and voices.

But the student above is doing fine on those criteria.  I want to know
how the subjective comment about their being effeminate (not something
which can be measured objectively) is appropriate.

   > "One of the first things you hear is if they can tell you are gay
   > onstage you're in big trouble.  I've seen kids here who are tortured
   > about it."  This is what a current told Stantin in his article (too bad
   > you didn't read it, David). 
                         ^^^^^
ooops, sorry that is from one of my cmu local posts :-)

   Yeah, so what?  I'm sure the department would single out
   students who speak non-standard English, too.  And rightly so.

You are making several assumptions which I believe to be false.  The
first one is that these students are flaming queens onstage and can't
act.  CMU students do not take an "acting" class until their Junior
year.  The students that are cut are sophomores.  To be admitted to
CMU, there is a competitive audition.  The best,
seemingly-most-talented students are admitted.  Sure, some mistakes
are made.  But the case study from the Scanlan article was one of 16
students cut in 1981, all of whom were gay men or overwieght women.
I do not accept the assumption that all the gay men admitted to Drama
in 1979 (and cut in 1981) were without talent and behaved like flaming
queens. 

We also seem to be arguing about different things.  You are arguing
that individual cases may be correct.  I am arguing that CMU Drama has
a history of discrimination against a class of people.  There is a
difference, and I think that is where we are failing to communicate.
Unless you believe that the 1981 incident known as Bloody Monday is
indicative that gay men make bad actors, which i don't think you do
believe.

You are also not responding to points that students live in fear that
if they are found out to be gay (by attending cmuOUT, or appearing gay
onstage), they will be cut from the program.  Is this fear
appropriate?

Let me tell you something else about Drama.  There is only one openly
gay faculty member, and several that are in the closet.  The open
faculty member was hired this year.  After this person was hired,
someone else on faculty questioned his/her capability to do the job
because "he is gay."

My initial article was about an article published by a reputable trade
publication.  The sources were verified.  You may accept that
individual cases in the article were exagerated and did not
demonstrate homophobia (I disagree), but the point I am trying to make
is that there is an atmosphere in CMU's drama department which is
hostile to gays (and lesbians).

There, that response is a little less defensive I think :-)

Scott
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