From: jogle@dopey.vlba.nrao.edu (Jim Ogle (Ks. Jim))
Subject: Re: How do axioms really work?
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
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Organization: University of North Texas
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Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 02:10:59 GMT

Sean M. writes:

> On Apr 6, 10:53am, Rick Pim wrote:
> } >If the Tech axiom was a hard-and-fast limit on what
> } >technology would _work_, then as soon as your character failed his
> } >contradiction check while flying the airplane, not only would the
> } >engines stop, but the plane would drop out of the sky like a rock and
> } >be completely uncontrollable.
> } 
> }    i don't think this is necessarily something one can use to support
> } any particular position; i suspect that they did it this way to avoid a
> } situation like:  "you disconnect. you plunge from the sky. you die."
> } which might make their sample adventure a bit grim. :-)
>
> If you look at the adventure, you're given a choice of either letting
> the Living Land Axioms cut off your engine, forcing you to make a
> dead-stick landing immediately, or expend a Possibility to create a
> reality bubble and keep your plane functioning normally. If you choose
> to take it in immediately, you make a check using your Air Vehicles
> skill to see whether you can land safely.

I agree with Rick; a quickie solo adventure where the choices are
deliberately limited should not be used to support the rules; if a
glider would work at Tech 7 as the adventure suggests, why weren't
humans inventing and operating gliders back in biblical times?

I think they just didn't want to write in a couple extra paragraphs
dealing with reconnecting (or not) while flying the plane....

> It seems to me that the deciding question as to whether a machine with
> a Tech axiom higher than the area it's in will work (regardless of
> whether or not a local can understand it and make it work) is whether
> it uses an existing natural condition or creates an unnatural
> condition in order to operate.

I'd say that a glider does not use an existing natural condition
because a glider is not a natural thing; axioms represent how the
living can interact with the nonliving.  Birds can fly without
nonliving assistance, humans can't.  As a result, birds can fly in the
Living Land but anything a human uses to allow him to fly is governed
by the axioms of the Living Land (of which, only a spiritual miracle
that allows flight will be supported).

> And some of the divisions in Tech axioms are purely arbitrary -- for
> example, between Tech 7 and 8, bows go from being usable against small
> game to usable as a combat weapon. To increase the power on a self
> bow, you either make thicker limbs or make the bowstave longer. Why
> would a 3' bowstave work as a bow at Tech 7 while a 6' bowstave -- the
> same shape, the same wood -- wouldn't? Go into the Living Land, and
> hand an edeinos a small orangewood self bow and show him how to use
> it. Before the wood rots away, he'll be able to use it to hunt game;
> it functions perfectly well. But then if you hand him a 6' orangewood
> longbow, it's a four-case contradiction.
> 
> For a more extreme case, disconnect the edeinos. Until he reconnects,
> he _can't_ create a contradiction. Now he _can't_ make a 6' orangewood
> longbow work, but he can still use the 3' orangewood bow. What is it
> about a 6' bow that is so fundamentally different from a 3' bow? Is
> there some fundamental difference in the way the two bows are used
> that would make him incapable of understanding how to use it? It's
> just a bigger bow; it works the same way.

Hmmm...something like the bow I'd rule uses the same kind of rule WEG
came up with for armor when you disconnect; if you disconnect any
armor you are wearing will still function, but it will have a maximum
number of adds based on what the Tech axiom of the area you are in
will support.  This is all kind of vague and all (what does kevlar
drop to in Aysle, since they have armor of +5 or better?), but you
could apply it to the bow (the Tech 8 bow will function as a Tech 7
bow if you disconnect).

Of course, that leads to the question of why you can't do the same
thing with all equipment (ie, if you disconnect with your 9mm pistol
in Orrorsh, why doesn't it still work but at an equivalent level of
Orrorsh Tech level guns?) so maybe that isn't such a good idea after
all.... 

Kansas Jim (jogle@nrao.edu)
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg