Newsgroups: soc.history,soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Irony continues in our history
From: stojanov@husc10.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic)
Date: 12 Aug 92 10:46:00 EDT
Followup-To: soc.history,soc.culture.yugoslavia
Organization: Harvard University Science Center



>In article <1992Aug11.184018.322@src.umd.edu> josip@src.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug11.121711.14620@husc3.harvard.edu> stojanov@husc8.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
>>>Just to address two key points in Mr. Loncaric's posting.  
>>>I do not have time for each misrepresentation.
>>
>>Mr. Stojanovic may disagree with my statements, but rather than to engage
>>in a game of "he said, she said" with him, I'm going to simply provide
>>references to interested readers:
>>
>>On WWII in former Yugoslavia: A brief but clear chapter in:
>>
>>Wayne S. Vucinich: Contemporary Yugoslavia
>>                   Univ. Cal. Press, 1969,
>>                   Call Number: DR370.V8

To remind everyone.  The discussion started with the Mr.Loncaric's
statement that Croats did their fair share in anti-fascistic resistance 
in WWII and my comment that that may be true, but only when they realised
what would happen with their state - In the late 1943.  When defeated
Croatian units brought back the stories about what happened under 
Stalingrad.  Some Croats captured there, changed quickly sides and 
went back to Yugoslavia under the command of col. Mesich to fight for
partisans ( alternative was Gulag ). 

I would ask now Mr. Loncaric to provide us with the relevant part from
Vucinich'book where the ethnical composition of partisans is described, 
so we can discus it further.  I would like to quote Croatian President,
Franjo Tudjman, who is a historian and general, an ex-director of
the army military-historical institute:

"Because the position of the Croatian people after the declaration of
NDH was essentially different from the one of the Serbian people, there were
no existential reasons for rebellion." ( p.442, "Wastelands of Historical
Reality",Nakladni Zavod Matice Hrvatske, 1989 )

and:

"Spreading of the partisan movement in Croatia came depending upon the
realisation of the broad masses of people that the Independent State of
Croatia does not mean the solution of the Croatian national question,
because this state would share the fate of fascism and Hitler's Europian
order, and that program of NOP [my comment - partisan movement ] offers
the secure future against the return on the even worsened pre-war state."
(same as above, p.443)

I assume that it is beyond doubt that the "broad realisation" did not 
happen in 1941, even for Tudjman.  After those statements, Pres. Tudjman
does not give any estimates of the ethnical composition of the 
partisan movements up to end of 1944.  He knows, being  the military
institute director for a while, that there are lists of partisans
killed in major German offensives and that those lists clearly shows that 
either only Serbs ( well, not only, 90% ) were dying, or that no Croats
were participating.  1944 is year mentioned both by Tudjman and prof.
Ivo Banac, a Croatian ( and American ?) teaching on Yale, as a year when
Croats/Serbs ratio of  partisans in Croatia was 3:1.  When they mention 
the ratio before 1944, they give number of units in Croatia in comparison with
the overall number of units.  While saying this, pres. Tudjman forgets 
that vast majority of those units were from Kordun, Lika, Banija, 
where majority of Serbs lived, still live and are still fighting the
new Independent State of Croatia.   

Also, I would like to note here the great role of the Slovenian people in 
the anti-fascistic fight.  They can only be proud of it. This role is often
neglected in history books.  Especially the role of the non-communist 
resistance.

Regards,

Milan N. Stojanovic