From: kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Keith "Justified And Ancient" Cochran)
Subject: Re: Don't just whine about media bias. Do something!
Summary: If Stupidity Was Money, Ron Would Be Rich... 
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Date: Tue, 6 Oct 92 22:54:41 GMT

In article <1992Oct5.162127.25163@spectrum.xerox.com> rgoers@gumdrop.Xerox.COM (Ron Goers) writes:
>In article <adams.718032997@spssig> adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes:
>>rgoers@gumdrop.Xerox.COM (Ron Goers) writes:
>>>In article <adams.717858738@spssig> adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes:
>>>1. I'm not pro-abortion
>
>>>Did she know that her chances of having a 'wanted' baby have been reduced 
>>>because of that abortion?  Probobly not.  
>>Yes, she did.  But again, the ramifications of carrying the child to term
>>(this was in '81) were FAR worse than the risks associated with the
>>abortion.
>>
>That's simply not true.  Abortion is the un-natural termination of a natural
>body process.  To say that abortion is safer than birth is repeating something
>that someone taught us somewhere along the way which is unsubstantiated and
>un-true.  Abortion is not, nor has it ever been, safer than giving birth.

You will be posting your references showing this, won't you?

>
>>>Women are being exploited by a multi-billion (yes BILLION) dollar a year 
>>>industry.  
>>No one exploited her.  The decision was made LONG before she even went near
>>a clinic.  She didn't need counselling to know what options were available,
>>and she was fairly well informed on the procedure and the ramifications.
>>
>I have to ask where she got her information.  If it was from PP, then I can
>assure you that she got one side of the story ONLY.  If she visited a Crisis
>Pregnancy Center, then you are probobly correct in saying she was well 
>informed.

You will be posting your references showing that this is true, won't you?

Or are you going to be going like "PH", and posting claims to the net
with nothing to show they are true?

>
>>>They go into a clinic armed with half-truths.  They are pressured to make 
>>>on-the-spot decisions which will have lasting effects on their lives.  
>>Huh?  This 16 year old who CALLED AND MADE AN APOINTMENT OF HER OWN
>>VOLITION and followed HER OWN CHOICE was pressured?  By whom?  Certainly
>>not any abortion provider.
>>
>You can't tell me that ANY 16 year-old who finds out she is pregnant is thinking
>clearly.  Again, who counseled her?  Therein lies the answer as to whether or 
>not she was pressured into doing what *she* wanted to do.  I suggest that it is
>more likely that she really did what 1) her parents wanted, or 2) her boyfriend
>wanted.    

You will be posting references showing that 16 year old pregnant women
suddenly lose all capacity for rational thought, won't you?

Or are you just another one of those assholes who feels that women were
made to breed, not to think?

>
>>>All for the sake of the almighty dollar.  
>>Oh yeah...she was dragged into the clinic, forced to pay and forced to
>>undergo an abortion.  She'd be quite surprised by your characterization.
>>
>>>Abortionists aren't helping women, they are feeding off them!  
>>Oh please...this generalization is unsupportable.  I am showing you a
>>datapoint that disputes what you are saying completely.
>>
>No, what you showed is a data point which supports the above, that is assuming
>that they DID take her money ... which I am sure they were more than happy to do.  Besides, if you are so sure about this 'data point' being represenative of the majority, I ask you; 
>Why is PP willing to give up hundreds of thousands of dollars because
>they don't want to follow the recent 'gag order' put into effect?  Could it be
>that they stand to lose less money by ignoring it, than by following it? 

Um, because PP believes that women need to be informed about _ALL_ the
choices a woman can make about her pregnancy, and if they are not willing
to sell their souls to get money from "BigBrother"?

You are going to be posting your references showing that abortionists are
"feeding off" of women, aren't you?

>
>>>She more than likely DID NOT have all the information required to make such 
>>>a decision when she entered the clinic.  
>>Bad assumption.  She had already MADE the decision before she got with 20
>>miles of the clinic...
>>
>... Didn't answer the above!  Because she already made a decision, does not mean
>it was an informed one, or the best one.  

You will be posting your references showing that women are not capable
of making informed decisions, won't you?  Please include it when you
post your references showing that women are not capable of making the
"best" choices.

>
>For instance, I could decide to go for a 1 mile walk down a mountain trail.  
>Someone told me that it would be a nice walk, and it wouldn't hurt for me to 
>get some exercise.  Being armed with that information, I would take off and
>start walking ...  But what if I had gotten ALL the information BEFORE I made 
>that decision?  Little did I know that it WOULD hurt.  The woods were full
>of snakes and bear, and there was a blind cliff 1/2 mile down the trail that
>many people have unwittingly fallen off of.  Now this might solve your problem
>of having to deal with my unrelenting responses, but would it have been a good
>decision for me to take that walk?  More importantly, would I have CHOSEN to 
>take it, having had ALL the information at the start.  Now, I am not saying that
>your friend WAS NOT informed at all, however, MANY counseling centers which
>openly admit to being pro-abortion oriented, DO NOT tell the full story to 
>these scared girls when they come in.  The reason?  $$$  So, your friend may
>have known what she was getting into, but chances are that she didn't.  

You will be posting your references about these places that "openly admit
to being pro-abortion oriented", won't you?  You will be posting your
references that these "places" subvert young, innocent females into
having abortions for the money, won't you?  You will be posting your
references that "chances are" the woman involved here didn't know what
she was getting into, won't you?

>
>ie:  The doctors tell their patients 'it won't hurt' but I've seen tapes of 
>actual abortions taking place where the woman (who is put under) is screaming,
>and her body is writhing as she is getting scraped and vacuumed out.  I'm 
>sorry, but I *can't* believe it didn't hurt!   

Do you generally watch S&M films, or is this one of those hypocritical
"I watch pornographic films so I can tell my friends about the filth
and disgusting perversions occuring out there" things?

>
>Beyond being pro-life, I feel strongly that Informed Concent laws would in them-
>selves eliminate the demand for abortion.  (Informed Consent is where doctors
>would be required to inform their patients on all aspects of abortion.  This 
>would include explicit information on procedures, alternatives, etc.)  The fact
>that this DOES NOT happen today should be enough to make one suspicious of their
>current motivations and practices.  Therefor, if you were to ask me if I would
>prefer No Abortion over Informed Consent, I would rather women be informed, and
>feel that in itself would be enough to eliminate the demand for abortion.

Welcome back to talk.abortion, Kevin Welch, Kevin Welch.
--
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