HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: neile@stein.u.washington.edu (Neile Graham)
Subject: Re: Paul Hazel (Correction)
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 20:40:00 GMT

Before I say anything about the The Finnbranch Trilogy I should make it
clear that I read these several years ago, and that I have a terrible memory.

I remember like the first one, _Yearwood_ very much, and from that one
being very impatient for the other two to appear.  I was disappointed with
the second and like the third one, _Winterking_, better, but found it
confusing. 

A friend who also read them had the same reaction to the overall series
that I did:  It started off wonderfully, but Hazel seemed to lose control
of it.  Your mileage may vary, of course.

I'd still be interested in his next efforts, though.

--neile@u.washington.edu

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: rob@hoster.eng.ohio-state.edu (Rob Carriere)
Subject: Re: Characters I Hate to Love
Organization: The Ohio State University Dept of Electrical Engineering
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 06:02:31 GMT

In article <1at0k3INN1ml@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> sdh5@po.CWRU.Edu (Scott D.
Hurley) writes: 
>Rob Carriere made this modification to my previous posting

Ahem.  That's no modification.  The quote was at the top (which you have
conveniently deleted) quite _without_ any modification on my part.  Next time
you accuse someone of forgery please have leg to stand on.

>-->If evil is *supposed* to be more tempting than good, who's
>-->doing the *supposing*?
>
>Ahem.  That would be me, Scott D. Hurley, the argument's 
>originator whose identity *hasn't* been lost during the course of
>the debate.

And this is an error of fact.  I had lost your name, and said so, since I
wanted to properly attribute the original quote, and found to my annoyance
that I couldn't.  What does it take to convince you, a printout of 

   find ~rob -type f \! -name \*.Z -exec egrep -s Hurley {} \; -print
??

>I've been paying very close attention, and am 
>rather put out by what you people have been saying.  The
>statement I made that started it all was: Remember, evil is
>*supposed* to be more tempting than good.

And I repeat:  Supposed by whom?  Your statement is meaningless until you
clarify that point.

Anyway, back to the discussion you prefer:

>The point was that [Paradise Lost] was an *extraordinarily UNIQUE* case for
>hundreds of years, but now there seems to be a rise in the number of
>'villains' that we end up rooting for.

Well, I don't think it was even ordinarily unique.  I rather liked MacBeth,
and Mephistopheles in Marlowe's Faustus is considerably more sympathetic to me
than the good doctor himself.

SR
---


Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu (Paul Ciszek)
Subject: Re: The Year's Best SCIENCE FICTION
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 92 03:44:46 GMT

YANJUNA@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu writes:

>>  Ubermensch!
>>  Kim Newman
>>  I- E- W- C-
>>
>>  This peculiar satire assumes Superman landed in Bavaria instead of
>>  Oklahoma (or wherever), and became a Nazi super-hero.  I'm not sure
>>  what the point is.
>>
> 
>       Since I have not yet read the story, this may be an unfair
>comment, but wasn't this a "Saturday Night Live" sketch, with
>John Belushi as Marlon Brando as Jor-El?

Lois Lane:   "You mean, you can see through my clothes?"
Uberman:     "Yes, and his too!" (points to Jimmy Olson) "He is a Jew!"

--
Paul Ciszek, pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu | No nation was ever drunk when wine was
                                   | cheap.   -- Thomas Jefferson
From: mapmh@gdr.bath.ac.uk (M Hagger)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Next Rama Book?
Date: 8 Oct 92 15:02:16 GMT
Organization: School of Mathematics, University of Bath, UK

I don't know what everyone else thought but personally I thought that
the original book was very good, it dealt purely with the strange
technologies of the Ramans and the 'wierd' happenings on the ship.
But the second book was a real disappointment, I found it unbelievable
that the organisers of this trip were supposed to have picked a crew
with so many personality hangups, dark secrets and general all round
personality conflicts that the mission was a farce.  Imagine if in the
original book commander Norton and his crew spent most of their time
with a near mutiny on their hands, hell, it seemed to me that Norton
and co. did a far better job than the so called experts!  Granted a
few of the mysteries of the original mission were explained, but still
whilst I would probably re-read 'Rama I', 'Rama II' gets a big thumbs
down, which is a great shame as the concept behind the book is a good
one.

Mark
From: ca572@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark L. Stackpole)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Forward the Foundation
Date: 13 Oct 1992 16:48:48 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


Michael Burstein asks where I got the exact month for _Forward
the Foundation_. A: The Locus forthcoming books list for Sept 1992.
Although it might not be really offical since the Library of
Congress hasn't loaded a c.i.p. record onto OCLC yet.
c.i.p. = cataloging in publication
OCLC = Online Computer Library Catalog
Mark_Stackpole@oclc.org
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: YANJUNA@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu
Subject: Re: Forward the Foundation
Organization: Yale University
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 92 03:31:39 EDT

In article <1992Oct12.225610.13471@leland.Stanford.EDU>
spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu (Stefano Pagiola) writes:
 
>
>YANJUNA@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu writes
>>    Asimov, in one of the last editorials before his death, wrote a
>> scathing attack on economics as a discipline,
>
>Do you have a reference for that?
>
>--
>-
>Stefano Pagiola
>Food Research Institute, Stanford University
>spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu (NeXTMail encouraged)
>spagiola@FRI-nxt-Pagiola.stanford.edu (NeXTMail encouraged)
 
   I tried e-mailing, but it bounced.  The reference is the editorial in
Issac Asimov's SF Magazine  Nov. 1991.  However, as someone (supposedly)
studying economics, I do want to emphasize that most of his arguments
can be countered with an introductory economics textbook such as
Samuelson and Nordhaus, or Case and Fair.  (Shameless plug.  I've TA'ed
for Nordhaus and Fair)
   As I have stated in the
original post, I admire Asimov greatly, and probably more than most
economics professors.  However, in this case, I believe he was mistaken
in his arguments.  On the other hand, it does lend credibility to the
arguments made in the Card editorial. (Ref: Fantasy and SF, book review
June '92)
       Junsok Yang
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: baylor@nebula.ssd.lmsc.lockheed.com
Subject: Re: Yet More on Languages in SF&F
Reply-To: baylor@nebula.ssd.lmsc.lockheed.com
Organization: LMSC, Sunnyvale, California
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 92 16:48:01 GMT

In article <9210140917.aa10164@msi8500.micros.com>, mike@micros.COM ("Michael J. Lonski") writes:
>Going back to the classics, has anyone mentioned JRR Tolkien?  He was a linguist
>who spoke 10 or 12 languages fluently with working knowledge of about 6 more
>and created Quenya and Sindarin, the two elvish languages, as an excercise
>long before he started on his books.  I've got a book on his languages at home
>which goes into considerable depth.  Just imagine the kind of conversations he
>could have carried on!

Created? I was told by someone who was bilingual in it that the 
elvish language was essentially Finnish. (Not the standard version, but
close enough to be very understandable).
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.sf.movies
From: clc@kepler.unh.edu (Llamist Lliason)
Subject: Re: SF Novels That Would Make Great Films
Organization: Holy Church of the Llama
Distribution: rec
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 20:08:32 GMT

In article <1992Oct16.010149.22210@ugle.unit.no> leifmk@Lise.Unit.NO (Leif Magnar Kj|nn|y) writes:
>In article <asnpy4b@lynx.unm.edu>, xoanon@carina.unm.edu (timothy k istian soholt) writes:
> > donnell@manowar.micro.umn.edu (Your Heinous) writes:
> > 
> > >or how about a Robert Anton Wilson adaptation?
> > 
> > Illuminatus! : The Movie? :=)
> > 
> > -- Tim Soholt (xoanon@carina.unm.edu), The Man With No .sig
>
>That is one movie we can be completely confident will *never* see release.
>Maybe.
>
>I mean, can you just picture the press releases in advance of the film?
>The inexplicable "things" happening during filming and editing?
>And even if all the tecnical stuff worked out.....
>
Hell, however cryptic and evil it was, it'd be more coherent than
_Twin Peaks,_ right?

				Christian
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| "I love you only slightly less than I used to, my love."  -- Morrissey     |
| Christian Claiborn, waylaid, delayed, malaised, mayonnaised, underpraised. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Mail addresses:         | My opinions do not represent anyone's views but  | 
| clc@kepler.unh.edu      | my roommate's, because he doesn't have net       |
| C_CLAIBORN@unhh.unh.edu | access.  There, does that get me out of anything?|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: gquy@vax5.cit.cornell.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: The Shadow Rising - Robert Jordan **SPOILERS**
Date: 9 Oct 92 15:49:41 EDT
Distribution: rec
Organization: Cornell University

From article <1992Oct8.111930.4628@desire.wright.edu>, by
cse0080@desire.wright\
.edu (John C. Hansen):

[...]


















> 2. What in tarnation happened to Mat inside the ter'angreal in Rhuidean?
> Who is the daughter of the nine moons?  What is that spear-sword?  How will
> Mat "give up half the light of the world to save the world?"
> (Ah, I just noted that the Court of the Nine Moons is the Seanchan Empress'
> palace?)  This is interesting...

Apparently the ter'angreal does things rather than answer questions.  Of
the three things he got, two are obvious; getting his memory back and getting
out of the device.  The third one is somewhat intriguing.  Although
I can't remember the exact wording, it is something like 'I want a way
to (avoid?, get rid of?) all Aes Sedai and the Power.'

So, off the wall prediction.  Rand defeats the Dark One, but has gone mad
and is destroying the world.  Mat somehow has it within his ability to
destroy half the true source.  After doing this no one can channel anymore--
so he saves the world from Rand, destroys half the world's light, and avoids
Aes Sedai and the power.  QED.

SEH
From: dougr@jerod.CNA.TEK.COM (Doug Rasmussen)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Venus on the Half-Shell
Date: 12 Oct 92 20:28:12 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.

In article <01GPQQIM2PBQ90MUJL@VAX1.ACS.JMU.EDU> FAC_PDEIGL@VAX1.ACS.JMU.EDU writes:
>
>Kilgore Trout is a recurring character in the novels of Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.  He
>writes science fiction novels and one of these is called Venus on the Half-Shell. 
>In 1975 a book was published by Dell called Venus on the Half-Shell, written
>by Kilgore Trout.  The real author, however, is Philip Jose Farmer.  I have a
>few questions about all this and I would appreciate any information you have to
>share.  Why was the book written by Farmer and not Vonnegut?  What is the
>relationship between Vonnegut and Farmer?  How did the book come about and why
>was it written?  I have found little on the subject and would love to know more.

I was at a science fiction convention where Philip Jose Farmer was the guest
speaker.  I asked him about this.  He said he asked Kurt Vonnegut for permission
to write the book and Kurt gave him permission.  Later, Kurt got so many letters
asking if he wrote the book, - the first printing did not list Farmer as the real
author - that he got very upset and told Farmer he would never let him do it
again.  I really enjoyed the book and told Farmer I hoped he would be able to
talk Vonnegut into letting him write more.  Too bad Vonnegut got so upset, I
would have thought he would have a better sense of humor.   
 
As to why it was written, I didn't ask him.  He also wrote some other really
funny books that were written as if they were autobiographies - "The True story
as opposed to the erroneous one written by my biographer Edgar Rice Burroughs".
One was Lord of the Trees, about Tarzan; the other was The Mad Goblin, about
Doc Savage.  They were in an Ace double.  I think he had a lot of fun writing
these.

You should have heard Farmer's joke about Mickey Mouse, made in reference to the 
way the Disneyland Hotel was deliberately trying the ruin the convention. 
 
Doug Rasmussen 
 
--------------------------------Signature--------------------------
What? Me sig? 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: poser@vxdsyc.desy.de (Till Poser  -  ZEUS OFFLINE)
Subject: Re: Jack Barron and Joe Pyne (was Re: Ross Perot and SF: From the NYT.)
Reply-To: Poser@vxdsyc.desy.de
Organization: Deutsches Elektronen Synchrotron, Experiment ZEUS bei HERA
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 22:13:00 GMT

In article <1992Oct6.164518.1@fnalf.fnal.gov>, higgins@fnalf.fnal.gov 
(Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey) writes:

|>The character of Jack Barron was closely based on Joe Pyne, an
|>obstreperous TV talk-show host of the late Sixties who frequently
|>engaged in shouting confrontations with his guests.  This was a
|>radical contrast with Merv Griffin, Dick Cavett, and other genteel
|>hosts of the time.  Pyne died shortly
|>after attaining national prominence, which is why he's not better
|>remembered now.  He'd be right at home on Nineties television.

For a closer look on that, I suggest reading Ellison's "The Glass Teat" or
"The Other Glass Teat". Ellison relates on participating in a show, where
a standin told him, that Pyne "was cashing in his chips via the Big C route", 
if memory serves.

|>At one point in the book, Spinrad explains how Jack Barron came to
|>prominence as a replacement host for "Joe Swyne."  

As far as I remember, Barron shoed out a "Joe Swyne" from _his_ "local Bircher
talk show" by artfully destroying him there and taking over and expanding it
into "Bug Jack Barron". Cool story, with very little science fictionish 
hardware (true, the vid-phones, but who hasn't thought of them?).

|>     O~~*           /_) ' / /   /_/ '  ,   ,  ' ,_  _           \|/
|>   - ~ -~~~~~~~~~~~/_) / / /   / / / (_) (_) / / / _\~~~~~~~~~~~zap!
|> /       \                          (_) (_)                    / | \
|> |       |     Bill Higgins   Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
|> \       /     Bitnet:     HIGGINS@FNAL.BITNET
|>   -   -       Internet:  HIGGINS@FNAL.FNAL.GOV
|>     ~         SPAN/Hepnet:      43011::HIGGINS 

Oy Gewalt! Hasn't anybody told You about alt.fan.warlod yet, and the evil
presences that lurk there to pounce upon the unsuspecting .sig offender?
May You never take a sunbath in the Tevatron!

       Till Poser         Internet: poser@vxdsyc.desy.de
-F35- ZEUS DESY/Freiburg  Bitnet:   POSER@DESYVAX
bldg.1b-235, Notkestr.85  Hepnet:   VXDESY::POSER (13313::Poser)
   D-2000 Hamburg 52      Tel.: -49-40-8998-2004
From: chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Orson Scott Card, Clarion, and RAH
Date: 15 Oct 92 20:59:03 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, CA

>markb@cimage.com (Mark Bernstein) writes:
>>John Kim (kim@LCLARK.EDU) wrote:

>	Alvin Maker was planned as a six or seven book series, of which
>the first three are out.  Last I heard, Card was so caught up in other
>books (Xenocide and it's sequel, the Memory of Earth series)

Last time I asked his editor, he was trying to finish up his historical
fantasy Columbus book. Then he'd be working on the ones above (Xenocide
first, I think, but I don't remember). So yeah, Alvin's down in the queue,
along with his Japan and Utopia anthologies.

>: 	On the subject of the Clarion writer's workshop, is there anyone
>: who attended it? Was it worth the large amount of time, effort, and money
>: to participate in it?

>	I know one Clarion grad personally, and have "met" one or two
>others electronically.  What I hear is almost entirely positive.  If I
>could afford to take six weeks off of work, I'd apply.

I know a good number of them. Almost universally, they love it, with the
proviso that it's more of a finishing school than a remedial one, so don't
go expecting to learn to write. Think of it as "grad school meets boot
camp". Also realize that there seem to be a few people in every class that
go into Clarion and come out, never to be heard of again, either because it
burnt them out or for various other reasons. It's not a panacea or a magic
cookie.

>: 	My last question is this. Will there be any posthumously published
>: Robert Anson Heinlein novels in the near future? He's one of my favorite
>: authors.

According to Virginia Heinlein (in, if I remember my source properly, Locus)
there was no work in progress when he died, just notes that weren't far
enough along to allow being completed by a collaborator, and there is no
significant unpublished fiction. Originally there was a rumor that he had a
work close to completion, but examining his files that turned out to be
untrue.

-- 
Chuq "IMHO" Von Rospach, ESD Support & Training (DAL/AUX) =+= Member, SFWA
  chuq@apple.com | GEnie: MAC.BIGOT | ALink:CHUQ =+= Editor, OtherRealms

    I wanna drive the zamboni! I wanna drive the zamboni, yes I do.
From: ca572@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark L. Stackpole)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Forward the Foundation
Date: 12 Oct 92 15:37:52 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


_Forward the Foundation_ is set for release April 1993. It is a 
set of five novellas, each covering a decade of Hari Sheldon's
life between the events of _Prelude to Foundation_ and _Foundation_.
The first two have been published in Asimov's SF under the titles
"Forward the Foundation" and "Cleon the Emperor".
At the time of Asimov's death, number three was complete, number
four almost finished, and the fifth just a handwritten outline.
I don't know if Bantam/Spectra will have a ghost complete the
stories, or just publish the manuscripts as they are.
My guess from reading the first two, is that Asimov was setting
things up so that Hari Sheldon would decide that Psychohistory
could never work, and that he would go ahead and set up the
Foundations anyway on the premise the illusion that the next
1000 years were already predicted by him would be just as effective
in maintaining civilization as a working Psychohistory.
Mark_Stackpole@oclc.org
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: st1rk@elroy.uh.edu (Maxwell, Darin)
Subject: Re: Sexual Politics and Diane Duane (was re Diane Duane, _D into Fire_)
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Keywords: viewpoint
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 23:41:00 GMT

In article <15583@suns7.crosfield.co.uk>, jc@crosfield.co.uk (jerry cullingford)
writes...

>I think I'd mostly agree with that. Where the books are successful, the
>sex of the characters is irrelevant - you care about the characters
>because you're interested in them as people, not because of their sexual
>preferences - and because the story is interesting.

I think maybe you and I are in a class by ourselves. My best friend told
me he noticed that all of the supposedly gay characters have sex with
members of the opposite sex at least once in TDIF. He pointed it out as
an instance of balance in characters's sexuality. It didn't even cross
my mind that it was unusual when I was reading the book. I accepted it
implicitly because this was Duane's world and that's that.

>(Or, more significantly perhaps, the feeling that the storyline wouldn't have
>been much changed without that part of the background).

It is important to the storyline though. It gives the reason for Herewiss
to save Freelorn at the beginning, and the reason why they stay together.
I do agree that Duane was less developed as a writer when she wrote this,
and you can tell it especially in how she deals with the concept of same-
sex lovers. But I think it is important enough that it is an integral part
of the background.

>difference). It's a very good story, and that's always been the main thing
>for me..

Have you ever read a book because it dealt with an issue near and dear to
your heart? I'm sure you have. That's not the usual reason for reading a
book for me, but it does happen every once in a while.

>reread almost immediately after finishing them. [So if you haven't read
>anything by Mercedes Lackey yet, go out and try some... the "arrows"
>or the "Last herald mage" series are a good place to start. :-) ]

As a matter of absolute fact, the books by Duane were given to me by my 
very good friend with one hand and he was taking the Last Herald mage series
from me with the other hand. I like Lackey's books much more than Duane's,
but that may be because I lived with them more. I waited for books to appear.
My friend,BTW, was very surprised to discover a third book exists and is
chomping at the bit to get it(he works at Waldenbooks and usually knows this
sort of thing before I do).

-- Darin

st1rk@jetson.uh.edu
From: ca572@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark L. Stackpole)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Heinlein reference in Sturgeons "The Golden Helix"
Date: 15 Oct 1992 16:18:50 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


Jim Freund writes: the name Anson McDonald was used in Astounding
for non-fiction than anything else...

Off the top of my head, "Waldo", "Beyond the Horizon", "Sixth Column",
"Solution Unsatisfactory", ""...We Also Walk Dogs"" and that time
travel story were the hero keeps on meeting multiple versions of
himself were all published under the name Anson McDonald.

Also, the reader polling for the issue were both "Universe" and
"Solution Unsatisfactory" were published ^^where
the results were:
	1. Universe - Heinlein         1.00
	2. Solution Unsatisfactory - McDonald  2.002

In a head to head competition, reader put Heinlein first and Anson
second.                        ^^readers
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: The Shadow Rising (no spoilers)
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 16:13:25 GMT

craig@ariel.earth.nwu.edu (Craig R. Bina):
>Yes, I noted this in an earlier posting in which I whined about the
>appearance of Arthurian elements in both Jordan's and Kay's work.
>In addition to Artur Paendrag, we have Egwene, Galad, Gawyn...

That's right, I wasn't paying enough attention to the Andoran royal
family.  Don't forget Elayne and Morgase.

(I don't think the Arthurian elements in Kay's Fionavar Tapestry
are as objectionable, because there they refer unabashedly to our
Arthurian mythos.)

-----
Dani Zweig
dani@netcom.com

   Aphorism is better than none.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written