HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: xm9@sdcc12.ucsd.edu (richard g. adair)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: Early history of dragons
Date: 6 Jan 93 19:46:02 GMT
Distribution: world,local
Organization: University of California, San Diego

In article <LEET.93Jan6083905@ibis.ims.com> leet@ims.com (Lee Thomas) writes:
>
There is some evidence which would suggest that large saurian creatures
existed contemporaneous with humans - primarily, cave art.  If so (*IF*!!),
it is possible that dragon legends are merely embellished factual stories.
Consider primitive man's first encounter with a Komodo dragon, for example.
>

I'm only aware of clearly mammalian representations in cave art.
Could you cite your reference for `saurian' cave art?

Some of the richest dinosaur finds are now coming out of China, most
of them from now desolate locales in the Gobi Desert.  I
don't know what the climate there was like c. 500-200 BC; ie, how
habitable and how inhabited was it at the putative time of the
creation of the dragon myth, and, so, what was the likelihood
of stumbling across fossils.

As for the British Isles, the earliest recogonized dinosaur remains
were found near Devon, c. 1820's.  Such remains proved to be easy to
find at certain locales.

A fossil origin for the dragon myth seems plausable, except I can't
imagine how the fossils could have been linked to a lizard like animal
without some knowledge of lizard anatomy, which is how the modern
association was made.
From: kent@swrinde.nde.swri.edu (Kent D. Polk)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: Early history of dragons
Date: 9 Jan 1993 20:19:53 GMT
Organization: Southwest Research Institute, San Antonio, Texas
NNTP-Posting-Host: swrinde.nde.swri.edu

In article <pmanne-040193155009@ma-mac13.uio.no> pmanne@math.uio.no (Per Manne) writes:
>I have lately become interested in the early history of dragons (for 
>convenience, let's say before 1200 AD), and since the parts which
>currently seems most interesting to me has to do with ancient trade
>routs and cultural influence, this seems to be the right newsgroup
>to post my questions.

If you want to read someting quite interesting wrt this and similar subjects,
you might want to try and locate:

"Mythical Monsters" by Charles Gould
Crescent Books, NY, 1989, ~400 pages

This is supposedly a reprint of a book published around 1886.
Jacket:
"Charles Gould, geologist and surveyor, was the son of a naturalist. A member
of the Royal Society of Tasmania, he travelled widely in the Far East and was
familiar with the mythology and literature of China and Japan, as well as
the legends of Europe and Central Asia."

I picked up the book for $2 at a closeout, thinking it would be fun/light
reading for my kids on the origins of 'monster' legends. Instead, I found an
book which provides a unique view of of the subject through 19th century eyes
which apparently believed that such creatures most likely did exist in some
form or other.

Mr. Gould expended tremendous effort researching ancient accounts of man's
history wrt dragons, snakes, sea serpents, etc. from Europe and Asia, and
attempted to provide context and explanations of what may have actually
happened in the accounts. If nothing more, the large number of written
accounts and translations of such provide very interesting reading on the
subject.

Kent Polk: Southwest Research Institute
Internet : kent@swrinde.nde.swri.edu
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
From: march@whitewater.chem.wisc.edu (Michael Marchbanks)
Subject: ancient organic residue analysis -- anyone else?
Keywords: organic residues
Organization: Physical Sciences Lab, UW-Madison
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 93 17:14:02 GMT

Is anyone doing organic residue analysis (prefer lipids) and would be  
interested in working with lithic artifacts from Texas (from a major  
project)?  I am posting this for a friend since he does not have access  
and I am too busy working with organics from Bolivian ceramics to do any  
more samples -- and he needs to get some samples done ASAP.

If you are interested (or know anyone who is) please write or call me and
I'll get you in touch with the project director.

Thanks,

Michael Marchbanks

March@whitewater.chem.wisc.edu

office # (608) 262-0296  USA
From: mike@inti.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: "Ancient Lives"
Date: 12 Jan 1993 00:10:23 GMT
Organization: N.I.C.E.
Distribution: na
Reply-To: mike@inti.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.128.82
Summary: repeating on tlc
Keywords: pop archaeology

I should've mentioned this earlier, but better late than never.  John
Romer's "Ancient Lives" seems to be repeating on TLC.  Like tonite,
for example.  Consult your local listings for details.  ("Seems"
because it happens to be on when my local cable co ditches TLC for
something else, & the channel schedule is not listed in my local
guides.)

I love this show -- I hily recommend it.  Its subject is the lives
of the village of artists who worked on the tombs of the Egyptian
New Kingdom.  Whether it's good archaeology/science I couldn't say.
From: jlove@ivrit.ra.itd.umich.edu (Jack Love)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: First city and longest continuously inhabited city?
Date: 4 Jan 1993 15:34:32 GMT
Organization: /usr/local/trn/lib/organization
NNTP-Posting-Host: ivrit.ra.itd.umich.edu

In article <1ZquwB7w165w@Micor.OCUnix.on.ca> panda@Micor.OCUnix.on.ca (Elizabeth Holden) writes:
>But it [Biblical Archaeology] makes a spiffy title for a magazine.
>
>And it makes a handy reference for a two-word phrase designating a 
>certain area (the middle east) and a certain time (c. 2000 B.C. to c. 100 
>A.D.).  

Your point is well taken. The problem with the term "Biblical
Archaeology" is that the term "Biblical" is ill-defined and contains an
excessive amount of religious connotation for the taste of many
scholars in the field.  In my experience, the term causes problems for
non-religious people as much as it does for the religious. Many
non-religious archaeologists bristle at the notion that they are
investigating anything "Biblical" while many people with religious
biases resent the connection of a secular discipline to the Bible
fearing that this connection will somehow cast doubt upon their
beliefs. On the other hand, lots of people tune in to any
archaeological news which can somehow be connected to the Bible, and as
you say, it does point people very roughly in direction (and time).


-- 
________________________________________
Jack F. Love	| 	Opinions expressed are mine alone.
		|	(Unless you happen to agree.)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
From: mrgreen@next16pg2.wam.umd.edu (Mara Rachel Greengrass)
Subject: Re: summer digs??
Organization: Workstations at Maryland, University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 21:15:04 GMT

In article <1993Jan11.142611.1@kean.ucs.mun.ca> fskanes@kean.ucs.mun.ca  
writes:
> A while back someone posted an answer to a query concerning a directory
> of summer digs and projects. Does anyine know where I can order this  
from.
>                                       fskanes
>                                       dept. of anthropology
>                                       memorial u. of nfld
>                                       st. john's nfld
>                                       a1c 5s7
>                                       fskanes @kean.ucs.mun.ca

I don't have the address on me at the moment, but Archaeology magazine  
publishes a guide to excavations in the new world and old world.  If you  
get a copy of the magazine, it will give you the address.

Mara R. Greengrass
Univ of Maryland, College Park

Historical Archaeologist at-large (and dangerous)
From: tratclif@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Tracy Ratcliff)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: Minoan Scripts
Date: 12 Jan 93 02:29:13 GMT
Organization: Ohio University CS Dept,. Athens

In article <38204@uflorida.cis.ufl.edu> mariou@astro.astro.ufl.edu (STG colleague) writes:
>
>Also is there convincing evidence that human sacrifice
>was practiced by the Minoans?
>

Last I heard, yes.  The February 1981 _National Geographic_ has an article on
the Anemospilia temple excavation and its human sacrifice.
From: andy@terminus.ericsson.se (Andy Davies)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: Minoan Scripts
Date: 12 Jan 93 11:42:55 GMT
Reply-To: andy@terminus.ericsson.se
Distribution: world
Organization: Camtec Electronics (Ericsson), Leicester, England

I'm no expert, but from what I can remember from visiting Knossos;

linear A is a hieraglyphic type script, best represented by the Phaestos
disk in the Iraklion Museum, Crete.  This has a spiral of pictograms incl-
uding 3 or 4 'Mohicans' with the distinctive hair styles.  Apparently it
has yet to be deciphered; I could make no sense of it anyway !

Linear B I have not seen, but I understand it is more like an alphabet, and
might be a ancestor of Greek (or was it Mycenean ?). I think a few proper 
nouns have been identified in Linear B fragments; palace records and the like.

The guide book for Knossos has some references if you want me to look them up.

Andy.

---
--------------------------
Andy Davies
andy@terminus.ericsson.se
Ericsson Camtec, England
--------------------------
From: mikeross@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Mike Ross)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Roman Britain #1
Date: 12 Jan 1993 23:17:47 +0800
Organization: The University of Western Australia
NNTP-Posting-Host: uniwa.uwa.edu.au
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

Information wanted on any and all aspects of water source and useage in
Roman Britain, especially in Scotland and Wales. 

Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
From: ashall@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Andrew S Hall)
Subject: Re: Minoan Scripts
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 16:45:52 GMT

In article <989@quirm.terminus.ericsson.se> andy@terminus.ericsson.se writes:
>I'm no expert, but from what I can remember from visiting Knossos;
>
>linear A is a hieraglyphic type script, best represented by the Phaestos
>disk in the Iraklion Museum, Crete.  This has a spiral of pictograms incl-
>uding 3 or 4 'Mohicans' with the distinctive hair styles.  Apparently it
>has yet to be deciphered; I could make no sense of it anyway !

The Phaistos disk is NOT Linear A. (The fact that it is written in a
spiral should tell you it is not Linear.) The Phaistos disk is written
in a pre-Linear A script. Besides the disk there is only on other
small sample of this writing. It has not been deciphered and probably
won't be since there is such a small sample and no basis for comparison.

Linear A is an indigenous Minoan script that also has not been
deciphered. Linear B is a proto-Greek that probably has its origins
in Mycenae and appears in Crete following the Mycenaen conquest.


>>Linear B I have not seen, but I understand it is more like an alphabet, and
>might be a ancestor of Greek (or was it Mycenean ?). I think a few proper
>nouns have been identified in Linear B fragments; palace records and the like.
>
Actually the LInear B texts have been dull as dishwater. They are
exclisively devoted to bookeeping and records. As I said above, they
are form of ancient Greek, with a different alphabet. The ancient
Greek alphabet has its origins in the Phoenecian alphabet and the
Greek added vowels. Ancient Greek doesn't appear until about 
the 8th or 9th century BC.

The guide book for Knossos has some references if you want me to look them up.
>
>Andy.
>
>---
>--------------------------
>Andy Davies
>andy@terminus.ericsson.se
>Ericsson Camtec, England
>--------------------------



Andrew Hall who has a museum replica of the Phaistos disk on his mantle.
From: your-email-addr@a1.mscf.upenn.edu (Jesse Goldman)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: MacPottery
Date: 11 Jan 93 20:30:21 GMT
Followup-To: sci.archaeology
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

I recently saw a program for the Mac to teach form and history of Chinese,
Japanese and Korean Pottery.  Where can I find it again?

                   Jesse
From: karl_best@novell.com (Karl Best)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: summer digs??
Date: 11 Jan 93 21:41:31 GMT
Organization: Novell, Inc.

In article <1993Jan11.142611.1@kean.ucs.mun.ca> fskanes@kean.ucs.mun.ca writes:
> A while back someone posted an answer to a query concerning a directory
> of summer digs and projects. Does anyine know where I can order this from.
>                                       fskanes
>                                       dept. of anthropology
>                                       memorial u. of nfld
>                                       st. john's nfld
>                                       a1c 5s7
>                                       fskanes @kean.ucs.mun.ca

Try the Jan/Feb 93 issue of BAR; they've got an article on 1993 digs with a  
table of info. The Jan/Feb issue Archaeology says that a coming issue (next?)  
will have similar information.

=========================================================================
Karl Best                              My test for a book is that one
Novell Tech Pubs           ...  __o    should finish it each time with a
Provo, Utah  801-429-3428 ..   -\<,    mind to read it again--some day.
karl_best@novell.com      ...(_)/(_).       - T.E. Lawrence
From: karl_best@novell.com (Karl Best)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: Roman Nails
Date: 6 Jan 93 15:49:31 GMT
Organization: Novell, Inc.

In article <C0ED9o.14u@brunel.ac.uk> mt90dac@brunel.ac.uk (Del Cotter) writes:
>   it consisted of 763,840 small, 85,128 
>   medium, 25,008 large and 1344 extra-
>   large iron nails.  The small ones were

Somebody actually counted them?

=========================================================================
Karl Best                              My test for a book is that one
Novell Tech Pubs           ...  __o    should finish it each time with a
Provo, Utah  801-429-3428 ..   -\<,    mind to read it again--some day.
karl_best@novell.com      ...(_)/(_).       - T.E. Lawrence
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
From: ggrieve@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (greig.grieve)
Subject: Early history of dragons
Organization: AT&T
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 10:36:11 GMT
Keywords: Greek mythology


> I have lately become interested in the early history of dragons (for 
> convenience, let's say before 1200 AD), and since the parts which
> currently seems most interesting to me has to do with ancient trade
> routs and cultural influence, this seems to be the right newsgroup
> to post my questions.

> Oslo,
> Per Manne

Greek mythology has two instances of a dragon's teeth being sown in the
ground and giving rise to armed men. Jason had to do this to obtain the
golden fleece, and Cadmus did this when he arrived in Greece from Phoenicia.

Robert K.G. Temple discusses this in his book "The Mystery of Sirius", and
says that the myth symbolises Egyptian and Greek beliefs about stars and
planets. This is also connected to beliefs about the ancient oracles and
oracular sites. (Its quite complicated ...).

I have heard that the dragon may represent phenomena such as comets and
shooting stars - an attempt to rationalise these events.

Greig Grieve
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
From: ed_eck@milkwy.enet.dec.com 
Subject: Re: First city and longest continuously inhabited city?
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 16:45:56 GMT


In article <1993Jan6.234423.4418@news.acns.nwu.edu>, 
craig@ariel.earth.nwu.edu (Craig R. Bina) writes...

> 
>You might also check out the following:
> 
>  Author, etc.:  Lane Fox, Robin, 1946-
>         Title:  The unauthorized version : truth and fiction in the Bible /
>                   Robin Lane Fox.
>-- 
>_______
>Craig R. Bina, Asst. Prof.
>Dept. of Geological Sci., Northwestern Univ.
>Evanston, Illinois, craig@earth.nwu.edu


I'm in the process of reading _The Unauthorized Version_ and would not 
be (after about 150 pages) inclined to recommend it. Fox doesn't 
evaluate his sources, so it's impossible to tell if he's citing well
established scholarship or just quoting someone's wild assed guess.
It's also clear that his real area of expertise is Greek and not
Hebrew (as he admits). He takes several contraversial positions without
examining the evidence against him--he doesn't admit weaknesses in his
own arguments or put his statements in the context of established
scholarship.

Ed Eck
From: tpgwr@chevron.com (Paul Wright)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Dead Sea Scrolls Seminar
Date: 8 Jan 93 22:54:53 GMT
Reply-To: tpgwr@chevron.com (Paul Wright)
Organization: Chevron CPTC


  Does anyone know anything about the 2 day seminar regarding the Dead Sea 
Scrolls that is to be given the 20th/21st of February at Univ. of California 
at Berkeley?

Paul Wright
tpgwr@chevron.com
Chevron Production Technology Company
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
From: bergen@vaxb.acs.unt.edu
Subject: Re: summer digs??
Organization: University of North Texas
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 02:55:14 GMT

In article <1993Jan11.142611.1@kean.ucs.mun.ca>, fskanes@kean.ucs.mun.ca writes:
> A while back someone posted an answer to a query concerning a directory
> of summer digs and projects. Does anyine know where I can order this from.
>                                       fskanes
>                                       dept. of anthropology
>                                       memorial u. of nfld
>                                       st. john's nfld
>                                       a1c 5s7
>                                       fskanes @kean.ucs.mun.ca

The bi-monthly magazine "Transitions Abroad" usually has lots of digs,
summer workcamps, ecology tours, etc.  A great magazine:

	Transitions Abroad
	18 Hulst Road, PO Box 344
	Amherst, MA  01004
	phone (413)256-0373   subscription price $19.95 per year

I don't work there, I don't know anyone who does, and I have absolutely
no connection with them other than being a subscriber.

Janie Bergen  - University of North Texas, Denton, TX
From: p_stampoul@fennel.cc.uwa.oz.au
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: GIS/CAD for Digs
Date: 9 Jan 93 11:57:14 +0800
Organization: University of Western Australia
NNTP-Posting-Host: fennel.wt.uwa.edu.au

Can anyone suggest a good GIS that can be used
for digs? IBM PC or Mac but not too expensive.
Will be travelling to Europe in the next few years
and want to offer my services on a dig as a GIS/CAD
person. THANKS.
From: chc30@DUTS.ccc.amdahl.com
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: British/Irish History 400-1100 AD
Date: 9 Jan 93 17:14:32 GMT
Reply-To: chc30@DUTS.ccc.amdahl.com ()
Distribution: usa
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

An idea for a book dealing with the Picts is "The Cruthin" by Ian Adamson
published by Pretani Press, it mentions the other early tribes of the
British Isles who have since disappeared leaving only cairns, earthen
fortifications like the Black Pig Dike and such like to show they were
ever here. The Tain fits in with this period too, Thomas Kinsella's
version is good. A more general book that has got good reviews recently is
The History of Ulster, the author escapes me though, which covers 7000 BC
to the present.
--
chc30@amail.amdahl.com
From: gann@violet.ccit.arizona.edu
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: Early history of dragons
Date: 5 Jan 93 01:12:56 GMT
Followup-To: sci.archaeology
Distribution: world,local
Nntp-Posting-User: gann


 Per Manne's interesting history of the concept of dragons in culture
 deleted.
 Interesting point but I would like to propose an alternative theroy
to Manne's Chinese origin ideas.  I think the concept of dragons was
widespread in many cultures because many cultures had found some
unusual Bones.  Think about it, Your a stone mason or a farmer in wales
around 600 A.D. and you dig up the fossilized skull of a tryranisourus 
(sp?) Rex.  What would you think?  The general shape between mythical 
dragons and T.Rex is pretty darn close.  This may explain why concepts 
of dragons are not unknown in the prehistoric new-world (which lacks 
evidence for any Chinese contact.

Just an old idea of mine,
Flame away.

Doug Gann
My ideas are those of Belzar, a trans-dimensional being of incredible
importance. who communicates with me though a rusty tin of spam.
They are not the ideas sponsored by my employers.
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
From: ericadib@wam.umd.edu (Erica M. Dibietz)
Subject: Re: CAREER IN AMERICAN INDIAN HISTORY
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 23:53:25 GMT

First question: WHY do you wish to study American Indian History?The reason I ask this is because many people romantize the Native Americans and then
become discouraged when their sterotype does not meet their expectations?
Do you speak any of the many Indian  languages?
What type of degree are you seeking?
 I suggest you start with
	The American Indian Institute
	The University of Oklahoma
	555 Constitution Street
	Norman, Oklahoma 73037-0005

Reading suggestions:
	"Indian Givers: How the Indians of the Americas Transformed the World"
	Jack Weatherford
	Fawcett Columbine, New York

	"Wisdomkeepers"
	Harvey Arden & Steve Wall
	Beyond Words Publishing, Inc.
	Portland, Oregon

Erica Dibietz
From: rbkatz@cc.bellcore.com (Bob Katz)
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology
Subject: Restoration of Mexican Ruins
Date: 7 Jan 93 17:37:22 GMT
Followup-To: sci.archaeology
Organization: Bellcore

In December, I had the chance to visit a few archeological sites in Mexico,
including Teotihuacan and Monte Alban.  Although restoration on these sites
began a long time ago, the work is continuing, particularly at Monte Alban.
 I was told by someone who grew up near Monte Alban that the restored area
is now much larger than it had been a few years ago.

Climbing the ruins and watching some restoration work at Monte Alban raised
several questions in my mind about exactly how the restoration work in
Mexico is managed and about what steps are taken to ensure that the
restored structures are like the original ones.  Here are a couple of
observations.

1.  The structures at Monte Alban were restored at different times over the
past decades, and the restoration work is continuing.  It can be pretty
obvious (particularly from the color of the stones and mortar) which
structures are newly restored.  But it also seemed to me that the
restoration techniques differed over the decades.  For example, in the
newer restorations, the mortar between the stones seemed to contain fairly
large-sized pebbles, but this didn't seem to be true of the older
restorations.

2.  At Monte Alban, I watched a large work crew doing some restoration
work.  What I saw were men with shovels removing stones from mounds and
placing them into huge piles some distance away.  They were also dumping
many, many wheelbarrows of dirt even farther away.  It seemed as though
they were disassembling most of an unrestored structure, and I supposed
that they were then going to reconstruct it.

Can someone answer a few questions about what I saw?:

I know that it's possible that the differences in restoration technique in
different parts of Monte Alban could reflect a change in the construction
of the original structures.  But it's also possible that the change was
done for engineering or monetary reasons.  Is their goal to restore
structures to the original, or is it to assemble them so that they're
somewhat similar to the original but can stand up to thousands of tourists
climbing all over them for years to come?

I'd originally thought that restoring structures would involve mainly
removing debris and plants from ruins, shoring up the original stonework,
and replacing missing stones.  But I saw men disassembling ruins.  Is it
true that the restoration work involves disassembling then re-assembling
structures?

In the restoration work, what steps are taken to ensure that the basic
architecture of the restored structures are like those of the original? 
From seeing unrestored structures, it seemed that it could be difficult to
tell the exact details of the original structures.  How much artistic
license is granted to the people who do the restoration work?

Thanks.

Bob
Newsgroups: sci.archaeology