From: davidc@montagar.lonestar.org (David L. Cathey)
Newsgroups: dfw.general
Subject: Re: michaelangelo, the virus
Date: 14 Apr 92 11:23:15 GMT
Distribution: dfw
Organization: Montagar Software Concepts, Plano TX

In article <1992Apr13.023051.23628@seas.smu.edu>, doug@letni.lonestar.org (Doug Davis) writes:
> In article <1992Apr11.021555.11491@fallout.lonestar.org> system@fallout.lonestar.org writes:
> 
> Nice to have the functions of Unix in your os huh? Notice how noone
> has bothered to take on the task of providing vms functions in unix.....

Wrong...  Talk to CONVEX for a while, as that is exactly the types of things
they are working on.  See BSO for even more.  I've seen DCL for PC's, TPU and
EDT for other environments, and clones of Run-Time Libraries for other
platforms for those that like VMS functionality.  And you don't think I check
my facts?

> Incidently how is VMS handeling the POSIX networking routines? 
> Since VMS doesn't even DO native TCP/IP without forking out
> yet more money to DEC. Actually how do they handle say the
> POSIX select() system call...

	You actually get part of UCX with the POSIX distribtion.  But if you'd
even seen it, you probably would have known that...

> Just make sure your vendor tells you that what you are using is a "non"standard 
> routine.  POSIX vms doesn't actually go out of its way to tell you that what
> you are using isn't supported on most of the machines that "posix" was based on.
> You kinda have to read between the lines or just "know"

	What?  In just the previous statement, you seem to know nothing about
POSIX/VMS, and now in this one you're able to tell us what it will and will
not do???  Hmmm.... 

> Production ALPHA chip, okay, I want to buy one, give me the
> dec part number for a 200Mhz chip.   For someone who seems
> to be up on dec press releases you need to re-read the one
> of Feb 28... Besides all that what does the VAX chipset have
> to do with anything I said. We were talking about the ALPHA chip
> set to which you proclamed, "The fastest commercial CPU chip (200MHz) 
> on the planet and it runs VMS."  I still contend that DEC is not
> producing a 200MHz ALPHA chip at this time.  Or for that matter
> 150Mhz.  BTW do you know the cycle time of a 200 Mhz chip?  Is
> dec producing it's own memory for that kind of cycle time or perhaps
> they "just slow things down" for memory access.
> 
> Give me a part number and a price (qty 1) that I can run off
> any buy a 200MHZ alpha chip from DEC.

	Part #	    Description			Price
	--------    ------------------------    ----------------------------
	21064-AA    64bit Alpha CPU (150MHz)	$3375 (Qty 1)
						$1650 (Qty 1,000 after July)

	Would you like to know where to send the purchase order?  As I have
a business relationship with Digital, maybe I can get you a discount :-)
Cray has already bought a bunch, although I'm sure they got a quantity
discount.

>>> Besides who besides uninformed PC people ever judge the speed of a machine
>>> by it's main cpu's clock rate?   Gosh wally I've got a 50Mhz 486! Gee
>>> beav thats pretty cool, how come you have 120ns drams in there?
>>That's the only thing that some U*** folks seem to measure performance 
>>in, that or some_constant x VAX 11/780.
> 
> Please quote me a source for your comment,  any particular publication
> that says brand foo is faster than brand bar because of brand foo's clock
> speed will do.. 

	But don't you use this yourself sometimes?  Isn't there something in
your map entry about "50MHz and climbing"? :-)

	u.usa.tx.2:
	>#N	fcknfst
	>#S	Prototype 680x0 box (currently 50mhz and climbing)
	>#O	Doug Davis

	I only hope soon that I can add to the maps:

	#N	batoutahell
	#S	21064 Alpha (150MHz+ wheee!!) ; Alpha/VMS V5.5
	#O	David L. Cathey

> Also I believe the formula "# X VAX 11/780" is a valid performance
> scale.  Of course it doesn't tell you a whole lot unless you know the
> configuration of the 11/780 in question.

	Which is why other performance metrics are quoted by Digital.  MHz 
and VUP's alone don't do they job of charactizing the system.

>>>>Heard about any of the Micro Kernel work being done?
>>> Sure! mach3 has been out a couple of years, cmu has a micro kernel for OSF/1..
>>> oh, I bet you ment within vms right? 
>>Oh, guess you know which fortune 30 company's engineering group helped 
>>fund that work too?
> does it matter?

	Yes, since it shows Digital's commitment to the future of Open
Standards.  Also, they obviously have the technology now don't they?  You seem
to find Micro Kernel work important, yet dismiss Digital's importance in
funding and developing this at the same time.  Why is this?

	So far, I haven't attacked UNIX as "evil" (or any other system, they
all have merits, though some are more vulnerable to hacker/viral attack), yet
you consistently proclaim how bad Digital is and terrible VMS is.  Why is this? 
What happened to make you think that Digital and VMS should be banished from
the universe, in favor of ...  yes, in favor of who? Who is the good guy in the
industry?  What have they done to promote the future of the industry?  What
have they done to shape the technology of today and are doing to invest in the
future?  If Digital is (in your opinion) not one of them, who do you think is?

	And remember, the first UNIX was written on a PDP-8... Made by Digital.
The C language syntax was designed around the PDP instruction set (CISC) as 
extensions to BCPL.  Digital gave the universities hardware cheap, which is
part of the only reason UNIX got it's growth.  But no, DEC is evil vendor...
We mustn't do business with them...  How quickly we forget...

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David L. Cathey		                |INET: davidc@montagar.lonestar.org
Montagar Software Concepts              |UUCP: ...!texsun!montagar!davidc
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