HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: STOP!... Please.
Date: 24 Jul 92 23:32:27 GMT
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA

In article <40387@ogicse.ogi.edu> gerlek@ogicse.ogi.edu
(Michael Gerlek) writes:
>In article <22JUL199208173449@zeus.tamu.edu> slh5087@zeus.tamu.edu writes:
>>I think the subject line pretty much says it all...  
>Perfectly!

>It's a shame this group wasn't made a moderated group -- but who would've
>guessed it'd be like this?

I did.
Ah, but no one listened to me.

I knew it from the *.jobs.* groups.  I proposed moderation if it was
going to be a sci group.  No science here.  But I still voted yes for it.
Moderation will never be added, now.  All unmoderated groups should be
proposed as talk groups unless good reason can be shown otherwise.
It can never happen, the net newbies will never understand the situation
and vote it down until they become seasoned.

>Sigh.  We're s'posed to be "scientists", remember?  Scientific
>discourse, informed debate, and all that?  It's really a pretty poor
>showing for ourselves.

Like the title of a recent books of cartoons:
YOU WANT PROOF?!  I'LL GIVE YOU PROOF!

If we are scientists, the programming sociologists on the net would
go off an design a better discussion forum interface to replace
news, notes, bbs, etc.

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Second Favorite email message: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days
A Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: mwfolsom@hydra.unm.edu (Mike Folsom)
Subject: Folks, can we all get along?
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 19:20:19 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Biology, University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

Wow!

When I discovered that this news group existed I quickly
subscribed hoping to find some kindred spirits who are
out there, like me, looking for a job and not finding 
one and wondering what to do next.

Well, I found that and lots more.

I note the pain and anger.  I understand both of these feelings
because I've had 'em.  I figure most of those out there looking
for a job are lots like me.  Years ago they "signed-on" to a 
system that "promised" if they worked real hard, kept
there nose clean and to the old grindstone they would be ok.
During the course of the process they, like me, slowly fell in love 
with what they do, now they are starting to realize that their
dreams and hopes are dead meat. 

To reality -

Frankly, things don't look good.  The promised shortage of positions 
hasn't materialized and probably never will.  Its pretty clear 
that the "system" has lied to us and everybody else and continues 
to do so.  For evidence of this see Science vol 256, pg. 172.  To add 
insult to injury we hear the screams from the "powers that be" 
about the need for even more students in science and not about the need 
for more jobs for scientists.  Prehaps this is the worst part of
the whole nasty mess.  By calling for even more bodies they deny that  
a shortage of jobs exist - they deny that we exists!  By carrying 
out this fraud they deny our pain - they act as if 
we're not even worth talking about!

An observation to prove my point -

Has the wonderous Amer. Assoc. for the Advancement of Science and 
its "organ" - Science ever written about the lack of jobs in the
sciences?  They might do some "news" item but never a major article.
Its just something they don't want to talk of -
(And the same thing's true for those nice folks at NSF.)

Somehow the "social contract" has been changed and now we are in the 
process of dealing with the new reality of things.  

So lets not jump down each others throat.  Seems to me that this
group could be helpful to many people by sharing our discoveries
about the job search process.  In another vein, and prehaps as 
importantly, it could serve as a tool to let others know that 
their ain't no shortage of scientists and they can't ignore the
fact that we exists.


Be well - 

Michael

As Jerry Brown would say - speak truth to power!
From: ejh@khonshu.colorado.edu (Edward J. Hartnett)
Subject: Re: Interview Experiences?
Keywords: Resumes
Organization: Cooperative Institute for Research in the Environmental Sciences
Distribution: world, local
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 17:04:06 GMT

In article <1992Jul24.020955.29781@cco.caltech.edu> jeffp@cco.caltech.edu (Jeffrey E. Prisbrey) writes:
>This sounds trivial, I know, but:
>
>A curriculum vita is usually pretty long.  I have been told that this
>can be a problem, that people in the real world (tm) don't like
>resumes longer than a page.
>
>Some of the people here have experience hiring -- what are your veiws
>on resume length?
>
>thanks,
>
>jeffp
>.


I have my resume on one page, it's pretty crowded, so I had to drop off
one job, but I figure it's better to get it on one page. Then I have another
page with publications attachted with a paper clip. In America I think it's
pretty important to have only one page. I also sent out a lot of C.V.s
in Ireland and GB while I was living there, and the general consensus was
that the longer it was, the better. People fresh out of college, with
From: egnr76@castle.ed.ac.uk (A Kashko)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Interview Experiences?
Keywords: interview, acadmics, industry
Date: 23 Jul 92 13:25:25 GMT
Distribution: world,local
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <22JUL199215010797@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu> merolajs@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu (JOSEPH S. MEROLA DEPT OF CHEMISTRY VPI&SU) writes:
>specialties.   Second, call the institution and speak with the
>department chair and/or the chair of the search committee.  Discuss
>your qualifications and how they might fit in. (Personal contact is
>much more effective in getting your qualifications considered.  At the
>very least, this may spur someone into giving your application a
>second look.  Third, use chemical society meetings effectively to get

	Some application forms and job particulars over here say canvassing
in any form disqualifies you. Be careful lest this tactic be considered
canvassing (As it will be in the very large number of cases where the
job is already allocated but has to be advertised and interviews have to
be held, for legal reasons).
:wq
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Re: When did you decide to become a scientist? 
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 23:35:11 GMT

The lynch point was 4th grade.

I can remember interests in technology from pre-kindergarden (like submarines),
in Kindergarden, I distingushed myself by making building block off-shore
oil derricks (later, I would live in Santa Barbara and fight them).

We were really lucky.  I went to elementary school when LA was one of the
best public systems in the US.  One school was one of ten which had a
"Science Center."  Lacking that center I did not know know what would
have happened.  A Mr. Carnival was the teacher there at the time.
He was okay, but in 4th grade, a new teacher Mr. Parker did it for me.

He had set up a 2.4 refactor with a sun screen (equitoral mount), and turned
to me: "Here, turn this occasionally to keep the Sun in view."  That event
did it for me.  I knew I wanted to get into science.  I was not certain
which science: chemistry and molecular biology held the most interest
initially (got the chemistry set, I figure parents fears of chemicals in
chemistry set is possibly one of the most detrimental things to happen to
kid's science).  I had interests in DNA and superconductivity (1965).
I really wanted to be an astronmer by 6th grade (gave that up when I realized
that budgets made astronmy tough).  Did the laser route.  Had a bad experience
with the electric shop teacher (too concern with his ham radio station).
Did well on certain tests, but didn't get into math until 12th grade (calculus
did it for me, went over well).  Won a few state-wide awards, but not a
competitive person.

Got into hacking computers on the early ARPAnet in 1973 when I first typed:
	ftp
and
	telnet
as a frosh.  It was all down hill from there.  Beats designing nuclear
reactor cores in some ways. 8^)

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Second Favorite email message: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days
A Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: peri@cco.caltech.edu (Michal Leah Peri)
Subject: Re: Interview Experiences?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Distribution: world, local
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 05:14:30 GMT

maniattb@cs.rpi.edu (Bill Maniatty) writes:

>Some things to try to avoid are talking about money too early in the interview
>process (almost never on the first interview), disclosing your current salary,
>your marital plans/status (employers may overlook you if you are perceived as
>being on the ``mommy track'' and single men are viewed as willing to work longer
>hours, and are sometimes preferred over married men)

I thought discrimination based on marital status was blatantly illegal.

A prospective employer once asked me if I was married.  I replied "is
that relevant?" and he dropped the question.

							--  Michal
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: karr@cs.cornell.edu (David Karr)
Subject: Re: Bad children, no career!
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 04:52:48 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.134114.4301@bb1t.monsanto.com> tjfeue@bb1t.monsanto.com writes:
>Boy, was I excited when this newsgroup first appeared...  Now I'm sick
>and tired and disgusted.

Me too.

>...  Yup, give me a mature 
>undergrad that I can train.

You still have that opportunity!  Many of those frequenting this group
seem to be about to apply to or only recently admitted to graduate
school.  You are already out there working, so you must have some good
ideas about problems that need to be investigated or solved.  Why not
post a description of a few of these--it might influence someone to 
take up a useful research topic for their thesis work.  In a few years'
time you might then know some mature and highly skilled workers.
Maybe they'd even produce something useful to you in the meantime.

(If you're looking to hire people directly out of bachelors' programs,
this is probabably the wrong place--everyone here is expecting at least
an MS.)

More generally, I'd like to hear ANYONE currently in the field
describe what a good research-oriented career might include, not
necessarily in academia.  Descriptions of a few actual persons' career
paths (names not required), for example, would be a welcome break from
attempts to forecast the global economy into the next century.

-- David Karr (karr@cs.cornell.edu)
From: sen@sun2.vlsi (Subhajit Sen)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: List-server
Date: 21 Jul 92 20:24:33 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Waterloo
Originator: sen@sun2.vlsi.waterloo.edu

A friend of mine is interested in the discussions of this newsgroup
but does not have access to Usenet since he is on a bitnet machine.
Is it possible to get the postings of this news-group mailed to him
through a listserver? Thanks and Best Wishes.
From: kasab@luther.che.wisc.edu (John J. Kasab)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: What's is like at NASA?
Date: 28 Jul 92 20:25:29 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Madison
Originator: kasab@luther.che.wisc.edu

In article <...> eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya) writes:
>In article <...> burtt@crs.cl.msu.edu (Brian Burtt) writes:
>>	Regarding what life is like at NASA, I have a rather specific
>>question in that regard.  What type of theoretical work is done at the 
>>labs (such as Ames, JPL)?  I plan to get a graduate degree in physics 
>>or astrophysics... what type of work do such people do in NASA?
>
>NASA is not a "theory" agency.  You want the NSF.

Actually, the NSF isn't a "theory" agency, either.  (I've worked there for a
summer in the Engineering Directorate, so these are my observations only.)
From what I can tell, the NSF's basic mission is to fund research projects
and research centers in the US, and oversee this funding to make sure that
it isn't being abused.

If you want to do real research in a real government lab, you would probably
be better off looking at Los Alamos, Livermore Labs, L.Berkeley Labs, the 
Navy Research Labs, or, on the civilian side, the National Institute of
Standards and Technology (formerly the National Bureau of Standards).

NIST is mostly involved in maintaining national measurement standards and
also in facilitaing technology transfer.  So, depending on your field, you
will find different levels of application versus theory.  Being a chemical
engineer, I am not familiar with what all NIST does regarding computers, but
I'm sure you could find out.

JK
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  John Kasab                             "I rarely speak in absolutes."
Arpanet: kasab@cae.wisc.edu              (alt: kasab@luther.che.wisc.edu)
      The NSF and UW--Madison don't speak for me, nor I for them.
From: duggan@cc.gatech.edu (Rick Duggan)
Subject: healthy skepticism
Reply-To: duggan@cc.gatech.edu
Organization: College of Computing
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 03:56:14 GMT

I beg the net's collective indulgence here, but I'm afraid that
I can't take this to email (anyone who sends Mr. Dunphy email
risks suffering legal action).

As you have stated, Mr. Dunphy, one should be skeptical when 
a claim is made by an party (such as the AMS) with a vested
interest in the outcome.

I will now adopt that idea, and ask you a question.  You have
posted that several people have sent you email supporting your
position.  I have yet to see any such support on the net; in
fact, all of the posts I have seen do not support your views.

I believe that you are biased.  It is your goal to have people
believe that you have support.  You have posted that you
have received support from others.  I don't believe this.
Now, I'm not asking you to post private email; that would be
unethical and possibly illegal.  What I'm asking is for
anyone who agrees with Mr. Dunphy to post.  That way, I can
see for myself that there *are* people who agree with you.
Surely you can see that you are a source similar to the AMS.
Just like them, if what you say is true, the only person who
benefits is you.  By your own logic, I should be untrusting
of this source (you).  I hope you shall not be angry at me for
doing something that you suggested.

-rick

"Random acts of violence just don't do it for me anymore.  It must be
 maturity." - Cactus Jack WCW Saturday Night 07/04/92
Rick Duggan | duggan@cc.gatech.edu | CS1410 TA - Section A
Office Hours (CC 103): Tue 1:30-3:00 Thu 1:30-2:30
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: karr@cs.cornell.edu (David Karr)
Subject: Re: Interview Experiences?
Keywords: Resumes
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853
Distribution: world, local
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 17:38:18 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.012259.19461@cco.caltech.edu> peri@cco.caltech.edu (Michal Leah Peri) writes:
>crawford@church.mitre.org (Randy Crawford) writes:
>
>Unfortunately, this seems to be true of most resume writers as well.
>Before you send out yours run it through the spell checker *twice*,
>have your mom (or someone else competent) read it for grammer errors,
                                                       ^^^^^^^

So, what spell-checker do you use, Michal?  :-)
(I guess you just proved your point! :-) )

>put it down for 24 hours, and then check it *thoroughly* again!
>
>						--  Michal
>

-- David Karr (karr@cs.cornell.edu)

Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: yamauchi@cs.rochester.edu (Brian Yamauchi)
Subject: The Life of an Assistant Professor
Summary: Yet another attempt to start a non-flame thread...
Organization: University of Rochester
Date: 22 Jul 92 18:14:42

Here's a question for any newly-minted assistant professors at
research universities:

On the average, how many hours a week would you estimate that you
spend on the following activities:

1) Doing and writing up research.

2) Advising graduate students.

3) Teaching, grading, preparing for classes, and helping undergrads.

4) Writing grant proposals, holding demos for funding agencies, and
   other efforts to acquire funding.

5) Other administrative matters (e.g. meetings, paperwork).

And, if it were up to you, how would you prefer to divide up your
time?
--
_______________________________________________________________________________

Brian Yamauchi				Robotics Applications Development
					Boeing Aerospace Operations
yamauchi@cs.rochester.edu		Kennedy Space Center
_______________________________________________________________________________
Organization: TECHNION - Israel Institute of Technology.
Date: Thursday, 23 Jul 1992 11:37:48 IST
From: <CERLPDR@TECHNION.BITNET>
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Interview Experiences?
Distribution: world, local

>merolajs@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu (JOSEPH S. MEROLA DEPT OF CHEMISTRY VPI&SU) writes:

>     Okay, so how do you make sure that you are seriously considered
>even if you deviate somewhat from the advertised area?  First, spell
>out explicitly in your cover letter why you think you are an
>appropriate candidate for the position even with the difference in
>specialties.   Second, call the institution and speak with the
>department chair and/or the chair of the search committee.  Discuss
>your qualifications and how they might fit in. (Personal contact is
>much more effective in getting your qualifications considered.  At the
>very least, this may spur someone into giving your application a
>second look.

   While sound, this advice is a little impractical given the number of
applications made by the average candidate. When one is sending one or two
hundred applications one cannot afford to spend several days on each. The
work to potential gain ratio is too small.


>     While I appreciate your frustration, I still have to say that I
>find it amazing that people apply to just about any ad.

   I find it amazing that you find it amazing :-). This is merely symptomatic
of the weakness of the academic job market and the desperation of the applicant
pool. They are not mischievously seeking to make more work for the hiring
committee, they simply feel that they cannot afford to fail to pursue any
opportunity - however remote.


                          John Tolman, PhD
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: jeffp@cco.caltech.edu (Jeffrey E. Prisbrey)
Subject: Re: I agree with Rob
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 19:04:36 GMT

dfriga@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (David R Friga) writes:



>I first signed up for this group, becuase I am looking for good
>ways to stay in touch with the science community.  I had also hoped
>to aquire some useful tips to utilze now and when I graduate.  What
>I have found here as of late, has been nothing short of the daily
>"freak shows" ie. Geraldo, Oprah, Phil and the rest of the bunch.
>The bickering that has gone on here has not only been tasteless, it
>has been rude.  Especially to those of us that look to this group as
>a source knowledge about what lies ahead.  Therefore, I formally state
>my agreement with Rob and ask that we get back to more intellectual
>and educational posts, because this net is -not- for personal flame wars!

>		Dave   = dfriga@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu

I agree.  Perhaps some of the more recent posts would have been 
better received in alt.conspiracy and alt.flame or even dev.null.

Censure, however, is a difficult issue.  I hope that relevant posts
from all the parties involved keep coming, and that only the
distructiveness ceases.  Until then, "k" or "n" works well and, IMHO,
far better than a moderator, a solution suggested by others.

jeffp
From: jon@alpha.ee.ufl.edu (Jon Mellott)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Interview Experiences?
Keywords: Resumes
Date: 23 Jul 92 19:33:25 GMT
Distribution: world, local
Organization: EE Dept at UF

As a followup to Ed Hartnett's long posting on job search tips, I'd like to 
share a little advice on resumes. 

A lot of people have taken to writing their own resumes and doing the 
layout themselves. Typically, the people who do this use a Mac with a 
PostScript printer. Unfortunately, these people know nothing about 
graphic design, so I'd like to give a few tips.

- Font selection: Select one font family and stick to it. Don't use anything
too artsy. Times Roman or Helvetica are excellent choices.

- Type size: avoid having a bunch of different type sizes, even if they 
are in the same family. Use one type size, and if you need something to 
stick out, use bold.

- Bold, italic, bold-italic, outline, shadow: Be very careful in using effects.
You should consider using CAPS or bold for heading information and that 
sort of thing. Never use bold to emphasize prose, use italics. 
Usually bold-italic, outline, underline, and shadow should not be used at all in 
a resume (and most professional correspondence, for that matter). 
Avoid that temptation to put your name at the top in 
bold-italic-outline-underline-shadow.

- Leave adequate margins and white space. Avoid tiny type sizes. Ten point 
is definitely pushing it. Try twelve point. 

- Make sure to use a positive alignment mechanism for lining up things. 
Too many times people will use spaces to align indented paragraphs and 
columns. The problem is, since the Mac and Windows don't use display 
PostScript what you see is not quite what you get. The moral of the story 
is that you need to learn how to use hanging indents and margins.

All of the above combine to help create a resume which looks clean and 
professional. The biggest turn-off in the world is a resume which looks 
crowded and busy: the interviewer doesn't even have to read the resume to 
get a negative opinion about you. 

When I was an undergrad I worked in one of those on campus computer labs 
and saw (and tried to help) a lot of people doing resumes and cover 
letters. I've gotta say that I saw some really ugly stuff. Given what I've 
said, if you have any doubts about your ability to do a passable job on 
laying out a resume, you might want to consider taking the text of your 
resume to a print shop and having them do the layout. Many of them use 
Macs and will give you the result on floppy, thus allowing you to tweak the 
contents as needed. Also, beware the copy shops which have added "typesetting" 
services by purchasing a Mac and a laserwriter -- these people are typically 
copier operators, not experienced graphic designers.

Hope I haven't scared you. Good luck,
Jon Mellott
(jon@alpha.ee.ufl.edu)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers