HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: khartman@fnala.fnal.gov
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Subject: Re: Deaths on Railroad Property
Date: 28 Dec 92 21:45:27 -0600
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: fnala.fnal.gov

In article <F77HwB1w165w@railnet.nshore.ORG>, eddie@railnet.nshore.ORG 
>(Eddie Van Huffel) writes:
> Joe.Russ <Joe.Russ@mixcom.mixcom.com> writes:
> 
>> 
>> >private (and posted) property.  Let's not forget her
>> >misery, even if we disagree with her lawsuit.
>>  
>> Even if her lawsuit causes others misery? All of us pay for these
>> lawsuits in one way shape or form through insurance.
>>  
>> And about "her" misery - come on. What about the misery that train
>> crew (and many others in similar situations) is going through knowing
>> they killed someone because a incompent/unconcerned parent? They have
>> to live with that every day they go to work.
>> -- 
>> Joe.Russ@mixcom.com
>> WISE Div., NMRA
> 
> 
> This brings to memory an incident many years ago, when a man got stuck on 
> the track, and of course, felt that there was safety in the car for his 
> children.  Unfortunately a westbound passenger train came around the 
> bend, and killed the man and his 3 children.  The day was Christmas 
> Morning.  Oh yes, the engineer cheered so loudly, that within 2 years he 
> took his own life, since he could not live with himself.  People forget 
> that the people who run the trains are human, and have families.  I 
> remember another engineer who hit a car with a little girl in it.  He was 
> unliveable for about 4 months, and ended up on a couch.  Fortunately he 
> was able to reconcile his problem.



	A point well taken.  People don't think about the psychological and 
emotional impact on the engineer and the train crew when they are part of a 
fatal accident.  There is just nothing they could do to stop the train in time,
and they have to live with that for the rest of their lives.  Everybody loses
during an accident.
 
 

> eddie@railnet.nshore.ORG (Eddie Van Huffel)
> Railnet BBS +1 216 786 0476



Ken
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: rmura@world.std.com (Ron Mura)
Subject: Re: Incident on Boston (MBTA) Commuter Rail
Organization: The World
	<38075@cbmvax.commodore.com> <1992Dec20.152616.15170@ryn.mro4.dec.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 14:42:07 GMT

In article <1992Dec20.152616.15170@ryn.mro4.dec.com> pierson@cimcad.enet.dec.com (Dave Pierson) writes:
> 
> 	Coupla things.
> 	1) Signal are commonly placed "in advance" of any point of actual
> 	conflict.  To slide by the signal is not necessarily a matter of
> 	imminent danger, tho not something to be encouraged, certainly.

These signals are very close to the two crossovers.  When we went
through the signal (whether red or not), we went over two switches,
one on each crossover.  

Another thing that led me to believe we might have gone through
a red signal is that after backing up and waiting, the train _did_
cross over to the other track while we had gone "straight" the
first time.

-- 
- Ron Mura, Boston, Massachusetts              rmura@world.std.com

Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: johnm@hpmcaa.mcm.hp.com.mcm.hp.com (John Mosbarger)
Subject: Re: Deaths on Railroad Property
Organization: HP Cardiology Business Unit - McMinnville, OR
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL7]
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 18:04:06 GMT

Robert Coe (bob@1776.COM) wrote:

[.....deleted.....]

: Please understand this point clearly:  The belief that people ultimately have
: to assume responsibility for the consequences of their foolish acts does NOT
: imply a lack of compassion for the victim or his family.

     Thank you, Bob.  This is *the* focal point of the entire discussion.

     Not too long ago I ran some kids out of our carport that were jumping
in and out of my pickup.  If one of them had been seriously injured, his
parents would have sued us.  What recourse would we have, other than saying
that we were sorry we did not provide adequate supervision while they were
trespassing on our property?

:    ___            _                                           -  Bob
:    /__) _   /    / ) _   _
: (_/__) (_)_(_)  (___(_)_(/_______________________________________ bob@1776.COM
: Robert K. Coe ** 14 Churchill St, Sudbury, Massachusetts 01776 ** 508-443-3265

   
John
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: ajw@squid.mel.dit.CSIRO.AU (Andrew Waugh)
Subject: Oil Bearings (was Re: Grand Canyon Railway)
Organization: CSIRO, Division of Information Technology, Melbourne
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 22:35:12 GMT

In article <BzDIIv.A1L@hplabs.hpl.hp.com> hintzman@hpljah.hpl.hp.com writes:
>Now to the question:  Why do friction bearings limit the speed of the
>train?  Related question:  is it true that most railroads will not allow
>friction bearing stuff to pass over their rails anymore?  What does
>this mean for tourist railroads and excursions?  What the heck is a
>friction bearing, anyway (I can probably guess...)

'Friction bearing' is a tautology. All bearings have friction. What
they mean is that the cars are fitted with traditional bearings in
which the turned steel journal (the axle) rotates in a white metal
bearing. Oil lubrication is supplied by a pad rubbing the underside
of the journal. In modern equipment this type of bearing is replaced
by roller bearings.

Oil bearings require far more attention than roller bearings to
prevent hot boxes. The oil needs to be periodically checked. The seals
are relatively poor (letting in dust to contaminate the oil). This
is a great problem in modern railroading which is distinguished by
long high speed runs with few inspections and with few employees in
and around trains to perform rolling inspections.

An unattended hot box can generate enough heat to burn the journal off
the rest of the axle. The result can be a spectacular crash. Indeed,
one of most serious disasters in American railroad history was the
crash of the northbound Congressional Limited on the 6 September 1943.
The cause was the failure of the left hand front journal on the leading
truck of the seventh car. Seventy nine people lost their lives.

I would not be surprised if railroads limit (or even prohibit) the
use of equipment equipped with oil bearings.

Roller bearings also have much less friction, particularly in cold
weather.

There is no reason, however, given reasonable attention, why cars
equipped with oil bearings cannot run much faster than 30 mph. After
all, virtually all passenger stock was fitted with oil bearings until
after the second world war.

The 'reasonable attention,' however, is getting more difficult today
as employee's no longer have sufficient experience with oil bearings.
Locally a small group of enthusiasts restore and maintain vintage EMU
stock for special occasions. This stock is, of course, fitted with oil
bearings. On one such special occasion, shortly after it had been
restored, the two car set was rostered to replace a modern set on a
short electrified branch in Melbourne. It would spend its day running
up and down the branch. The employee detailed to ensure that the oil
boxes were filled took his instructions literally and filled them right
up. This was far too much and the excess oil slowly drained out the
back of the bearings. Much of this oil found its way onto the rail
head and thence to the wheel treads. Braking consequently became a bit
problematic!

andrew waugh
From: jmd@bear.com (Josh Diamond)
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Subject: Re: Report on exhibition
Date: 30 Dec 92 15:42:50 GMT
Organization: Bear, Stearns & Co. - FAST
In-reply-to: delbert.big@hal9k.ann-arbor.mi.us's message of 27 Dec 92 09:42:00 GMT


In article <824.134.uupcb@hal9k.ann-arbor.mi.us> delbert.big@hal9k.ann-arbor.mi.us (Delbert Big) writes:

   JM>>  Status:                   Now in use in Kansas City?
   JM>I don't think they have a rail transit system in Kansas City.

   If they did have one in KC, they put the transit system in in less
   than 2 years.  I lived there, and the only transit plan I knew of
   was still in early planning stages.

   Maybe St Louis?  They were well along in building a transit system
   last summer.

St. Louis is a possibility -- unfortunately, I was unable to take 
any notes at the exhibition, and the report was done from memory...


Spidey!!!


--
You don't hunt ducks with a turnip! 

 /\ \  / /\  Josh Diamond                                          jmd@bear.com
//\\ .. //\\ AKA Spidey!!!                        ...!ctr.columbia.edu!ursa!jmd
//\((  ))/\\
/  < `' >  \                                              Do whatever it takes.
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: jis@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (jishnu.mukerji)
Subject: Amtrak orders Viewliners
Organization: AT&T
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1992 20:15:57 GMT
Keywords: Amtrak, Viewliner, Sleeper

According to the latest NARP Newsletter, NJARP Newsletter, and ESPA
Newsletter,  Amtrak has placed an order for 50 Viewliner Sleepers with
Morrison-Knudsen. The order is worth $100 million, and has an option
for 50 more at the same price. These sleepere will be used to replace
heritage fleet sleepers. These sleepers will also help increase
capacity of trains since they are configured for 30 passengers (4
bedrooms, 12 economy rooms, one of which is reserved for the car
attendant). The articles also state that Amtrak has plans for ordering
Viewliners configured as Lounges, Diners, and Coaches in the future,
and eventually all heritage fleet cars will be retired and replaced by
Viewliners. 

Jishnu Mukerji
jis@usl.com

NARP - National Association of Railroad Passengers.
NJARP - New Jersey Association of Railroad Passengers.
ESPA - Empire State Passenger Association.
Amtrak - Trademark of the National Railroad Passenger Corporation.
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: smb@research.att.com (Steven Bellovin)
Subject: Re: High Speed Rail Questions
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 01:36:59 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories

In article <1992Dec31.223800.27170@ee.ryerson.ca>, cal@ee.ryerson.ca (Calvin Henry-Cotnam) writes:
> The ingredients were powered iron oxide, aluminium shavings, and
> potassium permanganate as a catalyst.  A short strip of magnesium was
> used as a "fuse".  The fuse was ignited and it burned down to ignite
> the mixture to produce the reaction.

A minor nit -- the potassium permanganate was almost certainly *not*
a catalyst.  A catalyst remainds unchaged by the reaction; it merely
facilitates it.  If I recall correctly, potassium permanganate will
give up some of its oxygen very easily; this lets the initial aluminum
burn at a high temperature.  And that, in turn, is sufficient to
ignite the rest of it, where the aluminum robs oxygen from the iron
oxide.
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: ggg9y@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Garth G. Groff)
Subject: Re: Unusual tunnels?
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 19:48:17 GMT

SPIRALS

Although this original thread was spiral tunnels,
I will venture two more open spirals that I know of.

Williams Loop is on the Union Pacific (former Western
Pacific) not far from Keddie.  The track winds around
a broad valley and crosses over itself (on a short
bridge if I remember correctly).  It is a good photo 
spot, but hard to shoot in its entirity due to the 
heavy tree cover in some areas.

The other is on the Roaring Camp and Big Trees Narrow
Gauge Railroad in Felton.  This is/was a tight spiral
with a trestle over a another trestle.  Several years
back an arsonist burned the trestles and the line
substituted a steep switchback.  It has been about
17 years since I was there, so I don't know if the 
line was ever restored.  

~S
--
Garth (Haridas) Groff
"Not yet famous author"
ggg9y@poe.acc.virginia.EDU         Chant "Govinda Bohlo Hare"
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: billg@bony1.bony.com (Bill Gripp)
Subject: Re: Deaths on Railroad Property: common sense or am I an Idiot?
Organization: LA&W RR
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 92 15:34:27 GMT

In article <92358.151109CSS3@psuvm.psu.edu> <CSS3@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:

> what responsibility does a RR have to
> pay for the suffering and injuries of those injured on its property in cases
> where the RR seemingly did nothing to cause the accident other than merely
> being in the RR business.

A related thread, although not involving RRing:  Liz Holtzman, NY State
Representatinve(?) is proposing legislation which would make firearms
manufactures responsible for crimes committed with illegal weapons.

I can see it now, "Hello GM, my car was totalled by a stolen Chevy.  I'm
sending you the bill."

Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: wes@uf.msc.edu (Wes Barris)
Subject: Re: CSRM Inside Track news
Reply-To: wes@msc.edu
Organization: AHPCRC, Minnesota Supercomputer Center
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 18:14:36 GMT

In article <1992Dec22.081134.19611@pbs.org>, btiffany@pbs.org writes:
|> In article <pfnbms@Unify.Com>, raveling@Unify.com (Paul Raveling) writes:
|> > 
|> > 	News excerpted from the California State Railroad Museum's
|> > 	internal newsletter, the CSRM Inside Track, follows.
|> > 	[...]
|> > 	SP has declined to move our replacement tender for 2-6-0 No. 1771
|> > 	down from Dunsmuir...the air brakes were last serviced 16 years
|> > 	ago!  Hopefully, we can truck it down late this week.
|> 
|> Isn't the 1771 the engine displayed at Placerville?  I remember seeing an
|> engine there in 1970, and again in 1982 (in poorer shape than before), and
|> the number 1771 rings a bell.
|> 
|> -- Bruce Tiffany

According to my information, the engine currently displayed at the
fairgrounds in Placerville is #4, a 2 truck narrow gauge Shay.

Of course, a lot could happen in 10 years.  Perhaps 1771 was in Placerville
10 years ago -- I don't know its history.

-- 
                                       o O O O O o o o o o o o o . . . . . . .
 __________    ___           ___      __                _
/_______|--`--|_ _|--=-==---|_ _|--,_|__|_             |-+-------`____________,
| ||_| /        -  |        / - \  |      || ________  |                      |
|_|___/------------|----__---------|------|||__|__|__| |Southern Pacific Lines|
|_|____________/-------{__}---------------{__}_______|=|_________     ________|
/_(o)=(o) ( )( )( )( ) [__]  ( )( )( )( ) [__]--(o)     (o)(o)(o)-----(o)(o)(o)
===============================================================================
Wes Barris                                                   PH: (612) 626-8090
Minnesota Supercomputer Center, Inc.                         Email: wes@msc.edu
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: medberry@teal.csn.org (Michael G. Medberry)
Subject: Re: SLC<-->Denver: suggestions needed
Organization: M G Medberry
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 18:12:37 GMT

In article <1992Dec26.034255.12391@xyzoom.info.com> rob@xyzoom.info.com (Rob Lingelbach) writes:
>
>When I was at the Glenwood station, however, the train from SLC was
>2.5 hours late, due to arrive at 3:45 PM.  That would put the last
>part of the trip toward Granby after dark....  Can anyone tell me if
>that delay is typical?  Can anyone give me some more detail about this
>route? 
>Thanks.  
>
 
The delay you witnessed is not uncommon.  Apparently one of the trains into 
Salt Lake is chronically late, however now that they split the Seattle train at
Denver, things are suppose to get  better. BUT, take heart....

Rio Grande (SP,etc...) trys to make up time along the route.  When I rode the 
Zephyr from Glenwood to Denver, it was about 1.5 hours late into Glenwood and on
time when it got to Denver.  It was in February and all but the portion east of 
the Moffat Tunnel was visible in daylight.  As you know, Rio Grande was the last
private intercity passenger service, selling out to Amtrack in the early '80s.  
Rio Grande appears to still take a good deal of pride on moving passengers on 
time, even if it doesn't say Rio Grande on the train.  

If you traveling before April you can also take the Ski Train from Denver to 
Winter Park (call it Granby) which is also very beautiful.  

IMPORTANT RIDING TIP, IF YOU WANT TO RIDE IN THE GONDOLA (DOME CAR), GET ON IT 
BEFORE DENVER IF YOU'RE WESTBOUND, OR BEFORE SALT LAKE (AT LEAST GRAND JUNCTION)
IF YOU'RE EASTBOUND, LEST YOU BE UNABLE TO FIND A SEAT!!!! 

medberry@csn.org
From: karend@rigel.cs.pdx.edu (Karen D. Lantz)
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Subject: "Milwaukie Electric" by Noel Holly
Summary: Looking for a copy of "Milwaukie Electric"
Keywords: wanted, book
Date: 23 Dec 92 06:56:12 GMT
Article-I.D.: pdxgate.6609

I'm looking for a copy of the book "Milwaukie Electric" by Noel Holly.
I understand that it is no longer in print. Any pointers are welcome.
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: matthew@sleeper.apana.org.au (Matthew Geier)
Subject: Re: Railroad Signals
Organization: Desolation Road Railfan BBS
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 11:08:45 GMT

Steve_Hooper@mindlink.bc.ca (Steve Hooper) writes:
>Sometimes the Red can be a "Restricting"...depends on the railroad and rule
>book they are using.  This means "Proceed, preparing to stop within one-half
>the range of vision being on the lookout for broken rail, switches lined
>incorectly etc and in no case exceeding 15 mph".  This allows for trains to
>get bunched up, rather than have them waiting at each signal.  A train, under
>this signal indication, can in fact crawl right up to within a few feet of

 Sydneys Suburban system added an extra signal indication for that one !,
I belive they are known as 'half speed trips'.
 The signals are dual aspect, so the drivers get plenty of warning of
a given signals indication. The these signal heads have 6 lamps in two groups
of 3. ( Usually - 2 + 2 exists , no orange lamps ). All suburban signals are
also fitted with trip arms that activate the train brakes if a driver runs
past a 'red over red'..
 A couple of years back they added an extra green light below the six , and
split the track circuit sections in half. Now if you get a red over red
over green , you run the trip, wait for the brakes to reset and proceed
at extreme caution. The train ahead is probably stopped at the next signal!
 I belive this was done so that trains could recover quicker from minor
delays ( like slow passengers at stations.. ).
 There is also another rule that allows a train to trip past a red over red
automatic if its been at stop for some thing like 5 minutes on the presumtion
that the track circuit has failed. Again proceed at extreme caution as there
just might be another train out there..
 Im sure another Australian rail person will leap in and correct me on
the details...

-- 
Matthew Geier,
matthew@sleeper.apana.org.au   |  Desolation Road Railfan BBS and Dialup Unix
matthew@cs.su.oz.au (Quicker)  |  (+61) 2 718 6996 ( Ringback )
From: teruya@amazon.llnl.gov
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Subject: Re: Request for info: DRGW double Fairlie
Date: 21 Dec 92 08:09:39 GMT

In article <1992Dec17.132135.12840@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>, ggg9y@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Garth G. Groff) writes:
> FAIRLEY QUESTIONS
> 
> You apparently have Don Denevi's book on the Western
> Pacific.  The best use you can put it to is to steady
> the short leg of your kitchen table.  The book is 
> filled with errors, mis-identified pictures (like SP
> and Hetch-Hetchy trains identified as WP).  It is 
> without a doubt one of the worst railroad books ever
> produced.  Shameful too, because the author claims to
> be a university professor and noted scholar. 
     
     Just above the picture of the Hetch-Hetchy train (Which has Hetch
Hetchy RR clearly painted on the tender) is a shot of the Pacific 
Locomotive Association's old operation at Castro Point.  The locomotive
is 2-6-2T Howard Terminal #6 (ex-Sierra #30) in the late 70's about 
50 feet from San Francisco Bay, not a "Southern Pacific locomotive
around the turn of the century high in the Sierra."[sic]  The third
photo at the top of the page is a cab-forward (#4002) with "Southern
Pacific" under the cab window so we know he at least got the railroad
right.  :-)

     I picked up the book in a used-bookstore while at Railfair '91.
Afterwards I noticed the above photo, and when I showed it to a friend
of mine he expressed an opinion of the book similar to yours.

> 
> According to what I read several years ago (in NARROW
> GAUGE AND SHORTLINE GAZETTE if I remember correctly)
> the Mountaineer was scrapped by the D&RG and never saw
> service anywhere else.  It certainly never ran on the
> NCO or any other California shortline.
> 
From "Locomotives of the Rio Grande" published by the Colorado Railroad
Museum:

#101 0-4-4-0T

"Mountaineer"; also called "Modoc" and "Fairlie"; a Vulcan Fairlie type,
4 cyls. 10x18", 39" drivers, 62,000 lbs., 9,280 lbs. t.e.; Constructed
by Vulcan Foundry Co., Lincolnshire, England; a gift to the D&RG by the
Duke of Sutherland, admirer and perhaps investor; Shipped 5/10/73,
received 6/20/73, and placed in service mid-July; Originally numbered
13, Reno.  101 about 1876, and 1001 about 1881; in service intermittently
until about 1883; Offered for sale 10/1/87; Dism Burnham 11/1/88.

     _____           Alan Teruya                  teruya1@llnl.gov
  ___ |[]|_n__n_I_c  Conductor & Track Worker     (510) 422-4676 
 |___||__|###|____}  Niles Canyon Railway         Lawrence Livermore Nat'l Lab 
  O-O--O-O+++--O-O   Pacific Locomotive Assn.     P.O. Box 808, Mail Stop L-352
                                                  Livermore, CA  94550

Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: billg@bony1.bony.com (Bill Gripp)
Subject: Unusual Trackage (Was: Unusual tunnels?)
Organization: LA&W RR
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 92 15:05:13 GMT


Besides "spirals" (or helixes) what other unusual track arrangements are
worth mention?  Two come readily to my mind, both on the CNJ.

1) At Elizabethport, the CNJ had a "Grand Four" (as a fellow from the
midwest called it).  Two lines intersecting (at 90 degrees in this case)
with tracks connecting adjacent "arms".  A train approaching the
diamonds on any of the four arms can proceed straight, left or right.

                                 |
                                 |
                                /|\
                               / | \
                              /  |  \
                          ----------------
                              \  |  /
                               \ | /
                                \|/
                                 |
                                 |


While many intersections have connecting tracks, I can't think of any
others which have all four (although I'm sure they are out there and now
that I've started the topic, others with knowledge of such arrangements
will volunteer that info  =B^] ).


2) At Bay Head on the NY&LB ( CNJ/PRR 50/50 ) there was a reversing loop
so that power did not have to be run arround the train.

More well known is the reversing loop under Grand Central Station (NYC).

From maps, there appears to have been a reversing loop at Harmon, NY on
the NYC, however I don't recall seeing one there.  There seems to be
some evidence that one existed just north of the shops.  Anyone know
when this was removed?

I seem to recall that maps may also indicate a loop at Sunnyside Yard.


From: scott@hplvec.LVLD.HP.COM (Scott Turner)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 18:30:14 GMT
Subject: Re: Oil Bearings (was Re: Grand Canyon Railway)
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Co., Loveland, CO