HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Sex? Magic??
Date: 3 Jan 93 02:44:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1993Jan02.182732.2208@rose.com>, mark.terka@rose.com (mark terka) writes...
> 
>Date Entered: 01-02-93 13:23
> > I recently finished reading Parts of Donald Michael Kraig's book
> > "Modern Magic - Eleven Lessons in the High Magical Arts". A very
> > good book for either novice or expert.
> > 
> > Only one disturbing quote caught my eye, in the cahpter on Sex Magic.
> 
> Oi> Disturbing?
> 
>Yes, Kraig put it quite elegantly by saying that our sexuality is our
>most private part of our sexuality. Control that and you control the
>person. So it could be disturbing if this group is using this technique
>as a form of "brainwashing"
> 
> > He spoke of a sect "one organization I am familiar with has the leader
> > determine sexual partners. this includes having to be in an adjacent
> > room while your mate has intercourse with another person. This allows
> > you to hear every sound."
> 
> Oi> Big deal.  If people decide to do this its their business.  
> 
> It IS a big deal in that it brings into disrepute Ceremonial Magick
> all around if this ceremony is used for unethical purposes. Much like
> the activities of X-tian televangelists have discredited that group.

Maybe the people involved were not brainwashed and find the 
activity useful.  Do you suggest people only do things the Public 
would approve of?  

>Unfortunately, people don't tend to discriminate when they hear something
>bad about a sect....they then lump ALL of us into the same barrel (ie..
>just like down south in Georgia recently a  WICCAN coven was arrested
>for SATANIC (if you can believe it) practices.

The Public will probably think all pagans and mages are loons 
regardless of what they do (or don't do).  

- Peggy -
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: anzlovar@wl.com (Bob Anzlovar)
Subject: Re: Pentagrams
Organization: Warner Lambert / Parke-Davis
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 16:24:55 GMT

In article <1992Dec23.035912.6167@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> locklin@titan.ucc.umass.edu (Lupo The Butcher=) writes:

>I am well aware of the fast that most modern earth/pagan cults are based on
>fallacies, lies & historical innacuracies, in fact I posted an article to this
>effect on alt.satanism not more that 3 weeks ago.
>The differnce is, I am a member of a "pagan sect" that _realizes_ its history,
>or lack therof. I assume many (I wish most) pagans are aware that their 
>religions were started in the 1960's as a part of a counterculture fad. 

The pagan movement got rolling more during that time, but its origins go
a little further back than that (but I'm not one of those who say it
goes back for generations). Much of the pagan movement goes back to
Gerald Gardner (I think that's his first name) & there are those who
contend he stole much of his material from Crowley.

>Shit,
>the Church of All Worlds, biggest & most influential pagan sect (according to
>the encyclopedia of american religions) in this country, is based on a science
>fiction story! *Thou Art God*

In the last two issues of _Green Egg_, there're a couple articles which
put forth the thesis that _Stranger in a Strange Land_ is really about
Thelema, but doing so without pushing the hot-buttons that most folks
have about Crowley. (Altho Crowley *is* mentioned once in the book.)

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bob Anzlovar                    | I wrote COBOL once, but I didn't like
(anzlovar@wl.com)               | it. I didn't compile.
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: jasonp@bungee.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Jason Pascucci)
Subject: Re: alt.amusing
Organization: Prime Computer R&D
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 17:59:34 GMT

In article <1992Dec28.035843.1@wizard.colorado.edu>, windsphire@wizard.colorado.edu writes:
|> This sure is a flatulent group. Sparks of creativity & personal
|> supposition ignite festering charges of noxiocombustible gas. Surely you
|> can't be that depressed? Or has the 3-fold net already quickened, forcing
|> you to search for magickal thought in alt.non.sequitur? 

Unfortunately, there are times I believe that alt.non.sequitur
is more suited to magickal progress than any group which could
be dedicated to the purpose. At least in that group,
one is less likely to misunderstand even the most simplistic
of thought-forms, let alone those requiring some amount
of near-simian thought. 

|> 	-Windsphire 

--
Jason R. Pascucci
jasonp@primerd.prime.com
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: scarrobi@shearson.com (Steve Carrobis)
Subject: Re: Bring her to me!
Reply-To: scarrobi@shearson.com
Organization: Lehman Brothers, Inc.
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 14:57:57 GMT

In article 1hatb1INNid6@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu, jps8@po.CWRU.Edu (James P. Schwonek) writes:
> 
> Hello:
> 
> My name is Jim. I am 24 years old.
> 
> After four years at MIT, I am a programmer in the CWRU School of 
> Medicine in Cleveland, Ohio.
> I just received my MCAT scores and hope to be in Med School
> next year.
> 
> I am 5' 11" tall with brown hair and deep brown sexy eyes.
> 
> I am single and looking for a white or asian woman for email
> correspondence and possible meeting.
> 
> While my ultimate goal is marriage, I'd like to make friends first.
> 
> 
> Hope to hear from you soon,
> 
> Jim
> 
> -- 
> James P. Schwonek                         "One lesson, Nature,
> SGI Iris Administrator/Programmer          let me learn of thee."
> CWRU School of Medicine                           --Matthew Arnold
> jps8@po.cwru.edu root@dpbiris.phol.cwru.edu


gee thats some spell. let me know if it works. 
geez. now this has become the personals.

---
Steve C. 

 ==> A wise man once told me - There ARE NO Wise Men !
                             - Just fools who think they are.
---------------------------------------------------------------		
 I understand you need someone to do work.
 I don't do work, but, I know this guy who does.
    -Vladimir Taltos
---------------------------------------------------------------

   	


Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: grimoire@byron.u.washington.edu (John Greer)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Power (was: Re: Harish)
Date: 30 Dec 1992 22:06:37 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
NNTP-Posting-Host: byron.u.washington.edu

In article <1992Dec30.174838.26427@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> locklin@titan.ucc.umass.edu (Scott Locklin ) writes:
>
>In article <1992Dec29.170528.0204142@locus.com> lowell@locus.com (Lowell Morrison) writes:
>>Harish, I read your statments the same way as friend BD.  If you intend
>>to learn anything about magik, then the first thing to learn is to better
>>manipulate symbolism.  "a desire for power ect." is generally about power
>>over others.  If you had stated something like "a desire to gain power
>^^^^^^^^^^^^
>No. It could be, as you suggest, power over oneself, could be power over one's
>physical enviornment etc. Perhaps (shudder) it could be power over others.
>I personally wonder why you worry about this when you go about strutting your
>"moral power" over this guy. 
>
>>over myself" or perhaps "a desire to control my own inate power", you 
>>would not have (IMHO) gotten BD's response.


Slippery word, "power."  Thyagi's probably right that the largest number 
of people who get involved in magic do so for reasons that add up to
"I want power."  That little phrase, though, might mean any of a number
of things.

Some people use it to mean "control" -- whether of self, of surroundings,
or of others.  Others seem to mean something more like significance of
action, the ability to have some meaningful effect on any of these things.
And then -- well, when I got involved in magic, I would have used the
same phrase, or some variant of it, but with another meaning entirely.
As if I were an electrical appliance, turned off, trying to find its own
"on" switch.  My desire was to be in contact with power, not to make
any particular use of it...

-- John Michael Greer
   grimoire@u.washington.edu

Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: amanda@intercon.com (Amanda Walker)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: pentagrams and sepher sephirot
Date: 21 Dec 92 22:51:30 GMT
Reply-To: amanda@intercon.com (Amanda Walker)
Organization: InterCon Systems Corporation
NNTP-Posting-Host: chaos.intercon.com
X-Newsreader: InterCon TCP/Connect II 1.1b26

dpschneider@eagle.wesleyan.edu writes:
> Well its just a thought... but now I have a question. In "Sepher 
> Sephirot" it is clear that at times Crowley does not use the numerical 
> attributions of the final letters. 

This is traditional gematria, actually.  Whatever you want to say about 
Crowley, he did know his Kabbalah.



Amanda Walker
InterCon Systems Corporation
Xref: sparky alt.magick:6464 alt.satanism:2919
From: Tagi@cup.portal.com (Thyagi Morgoth NagaSiva)
Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.satanism
Subject: Re: A Proposal for an Experiment
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 92 09:07:33 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)

9212.23 e.v. [Happy kaOs Day!]


Scott Locklin writes:

[much deleted]

Since the degree of occult knowledge among this group varies greatly I proposed
that they all try something easy; one of the pentagramme rituals for example.

Of course, Thyagi does this every week to a certain extent on whatever MUD it 
is that SHe uses. 

...While I do not know what exactly goes on in these MUD
forays, I do realize the power of the virtual world over the imagination &
imagine that such workings as take place there are quite effective.


Response:

No, we don't.  Or at least we haven't.

Yes, we've met, but the attrition rates have been horrendous (Peggy and I
are the only consistent membership) and we're agreed that the weekly
meetings are 'a bust' (as Peggy so eloquently put it).

We've decided to do straight all out rituals and damn the consequences.
No meetings or 'get-to-know-each-other sessions' or conferences to
assess our 'compatability'.  Too many people don't take the experiment
seriously enough to maintain a social connection via computer.

As I see it we are working against a NUMBER of influences, most important
of which is that there is damned little actual experience with ritual
(solitary OR group) to contribute to the 'foray'.

We will be doing ritual on the MUD (it seems a reliable place and I'm
set up there now) and if you want to participate you'll have to go
through Peggy or myself to find out the particulars and how you might
be involved.  I'm sure Peggy would rather you contact me, so make
your choice wisely. ;>

No guarantees.  No knowns.  We is stone-blind and home free.


Thyagi the airborne explorer
From: grimoire@byron.u.washington.edu (John Greer)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Pentagrams
Date: 29 Dec 1992 18:35:18 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
NNTP-Posting-Host: byron.u.washington.edu

In article <JOSHUA.92Dec24014950@bailey.cpac.washington.edu> joshua@cpac.washington.edu (Joshua Geller) writes:
>
>In article <1992Dec23.162455.7996@wl.com> anzlovar@wl.com (Bob Anzlovar) 
>writes:
>
>>   In the last two issues of _Green Egg_, there're a couple articles which
>>   put forth the thesis that _Stranger in a Strange Land_ is really about
>>   Thelema, but doing so without pushing the hot-buttons that most folks
>>   have about Crowley. (Altho Crowley *is* mentioned once in the book.)
>
>that's pretty obvious to anyone with even a slight aquaintance with both.
>


True enough.  There's also another connection to things magical in that
particular book of Heinlein's, though -- a sideways and distinctly odd
one, which I haven't seen mentioned elsewhere...

A few years back I picked up a copy of _No Man Knows My History_, Fawn
Brodie's first-rate bio of Mormon founder/prophet Joseph Smith.  I think 
I was halfway through before I realized why so much of the book seemed
so familiar:  a good chunk of _Stranger_ was apparently drawn directly
from it.  There's a good chunk of Joseph Smith's career in that of
Valentine Michael Smith, and there's also a lot of Mormonism in general
-- including the sexual unconventionalness -- in the Church of the New
Revelation and its founder.

The thing that makes this interesting, and appropriate for this forum,
is that one of the points Brodie made (and one of the things that most
drove the Mormon hierarchy into apopleptic fits over her book) is that
Joseph Smith was a ceremonial magician of the grand old medieval type,
complete with a shewstone in which he claimed to see spirits pointing
the way to buried treasure.  In several other sources, it's said that 
when Smith (J., not V. M.) was lynched, a standard talisman of Jupiter
was found on his body -- the kind you'll find in, say, Barrett's _Magus_,
with the Kamea, seals, and so on.  Just the thing for an aspiring 
religious leader!

No question but that all this Mormon material was reworked by Heinlein's
not inconsiderable creative powers, and mixed with a good dollop of 
Thelema to boot.  Still, it's of interest (at least to me) that there's
more magic in _Stranger_ than meets the eye...


-- John Michael Greer
   grimoire@u.washington.edu

Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.pagan
From: mimir@hardy.u.washington.edu (Al Billings)
Subject: Charter of the Wiccoid-Panpaganite Clique of the Orgone Committee 
Summary: See main charter in alt.magic if confused
Organization: The Friends of Loki Society
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 07:43:49 GMT

 Wiccoid-Panpaganite Clique 

 The Wiccoid-Panpaganite (W.P.P.) clique of the Orgone Committee
(O.C.) is the branch of the O.C. which is devoted to following the
path of the Earth Mother and the Horned God (in their various
aspects). 

 Besides the Oath of Silence and Goodwill the only "laws" that bind
any member of the W.P.P.'s are the two rules of Wicca. "And ye harm
none (including yourself) do what ye will.", and "Abide ye must by
the law of three...if ye does good then good ye shall receive in
return and three-fold, but if ye do bad then too shall ye receive
bad in turn three-fold." These two "laws" are the basis for a
non-dogmatic system which has myriad forms on this plane of
existence.

 The W.P.P. is interested in working with consciousness expansion
on many planes and is accessible to any individual who considers
themselves Wiccans, Pagans, or Pantheists (belief that all things
are inherently divine) and who abide the laws stated above. 

 Some of the Sub-committees that the current W.P.P. are involved
in are the Communication S.C., the Runic S.C. (a branch of the
Communication S.C.), the Dream S.C., and the Land Co-op S.C.

 The structure of the W.P.P. clique is similar to that of the O.C.
in that consensus is the desired system, but when that system
falters the members of the highest circle in that O.C. branch of
the W.P.P.'s may offer their wisdom and aid in overcoming the
difficulties.

 The W.P.P. believe that love is the most powerful force in the
uni/multiverse. It is the basis for most of the working in the
W.P.P. We strive to become wiser through understanding ourselves
and our surroundings. 
 ...May your path fill you with wisdom and wonder...
 Blessed Be

Interested in communicating? Write to: Orgone Committee P.O. Box
614 Vanbrunt Station Brooklyn, NY 11215

SEX IS PEACE
TRUE WILL NOT SLAVERY
CONCIOUSNESS IS STRENGTH


Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: mimir@hardy.u.washington.edu (Al Billings)
Subject: How to Start your own Orgone Committee
Organization: The Friends of Loki Society
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 07:58:22 GMT

Starting an Orgone Committee

This can be done by any individual who can meet the requirements of the
Mentor stage of the Yellow Circle. They must also do the following:

1. Send copies of all oaths and papers to the Archives. 

2. Have compiled a Reading List of books to add to the one we sent you
to suit your own Committee. 

3. Create at least two of the following to ground the activities of your
Committee: Computer Bulletin Board, Magazine, Video, Orgone Box, Dream
Machine, Pyramid, Hieronomyous Device, Production of psilocybin or other
sacrament(s), Float tank, Cloudbuster, Orgone Shooter, Orgone blanket,
Art work, Other (please specify).

4. You must officially Open a Room 101, some of the activities in which
your Committee trains themselves as a group and as individuals take
place here. It acts as the physical command post, laboratory, workout
room, armory, temple, and all members of your group are entitled to
shelter there in times of distress, the exact parameters of this to be
worked out by each Room 101 Custodian on a case by case basis.

5. Please be aware that Committee founders get no special recognition
except for whatever prestige they can wring out of the
anti-authoritarian types that are able to survive within a Committee
environment. There's something wrong with your whole show if you're
attracting folks that are too impressed by that sort of thing anyway.
From: hiho@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Mark Peterson)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Magic and Morals (was: Re: Harish)
Date: 31 Dec 1992 18:43:35 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Reply-To: hiho@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.4
Originator: hiho@csd4.csd.uwm.edu

From article <1ht8lsINNbej@shelley.u.washington.edu>, by grimoire@byron.u.washington.edu (John Greer):


> The mechanics of magic do not involve moral principles.  The application
> of magic, like any other human action, _necessarily_ involves moral
> principles.

Finally, here's some clarity, and pretty well said John.  Personally,
I'm still stunned by the occasional outbursts of mundane conscience
this addresses.

But, is there any way to separate the mechanics of magick from its
application?  I can't imagine how you can.  --and that being said
we're left with thelema.  Absolute and purely relative.

The problem with these questions is simple: ethics depends for
justification on reason and reason is, by definition, finally
incapable (on its own) of achieving an initiated point of view.  See
William Blake.  ;-)

So let's just stop with all this "what if I put a hex on somebody" or
"can I weild power [ha] any way I want to" or .... well, like I said,
I'm just stunned these questions are even being asked...

I suppose it can be nice to be nice, but only if you really need to
be.

Hey, isn't this Josh's job?


hiho




-- 
mark ce peterson   | uw-washington county  | hiho@csd4.csd.uwm.edu 
dept of philosophy | west bend, wi.  53095 | (414) 335-5200        

     The shorter the tether, the sooner the goat starves.
From: oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Singin' Those Apocalypse Blues
Keywords: gloom doom magic survival
Date: 22 Dec 92 14:19:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Dec21.235213.15588@u.washington.edu>, grimoire@byron.u.washington.edu (John Greer) writes...
>In article <BzFoB1.3yD@acsu.buffalo.edu> oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown) writes:
>>
>>These people you know who are scarfing land, are they doing it 
>>because they also believe in this impending disaster?  If so, 
>>could you describe these people in more detail.  (I don't know 
>>anyone that like that, so I'm curious.)
>>
>>- Peggy -

[stuff deleted]

>Hmm.  These people who are practicing magic, Peggy, are they doing it
>because they believe it works?  If so, could you describe these people
>in more detail.  (I don't know anyone like that, so I'm curious. :) )
> 
>-- John Michael Greer
>   grimoire@u.washington.edu


Regarding magick, there's a wide variety of styles, beliefs, 
philosophies, but enough agreement on basics that people 
generally are able to communicate.

I've seen far more material on magick than I have on 
survivalists.  Do the survivalists tend to belong to mainstream 
environmental groups?  Do they have any BOOKS they point to 
as classic texts?  Now if there was an alt.land-scarfers group, I 
wouldn't have had to ask.:)

Most importantly, what exactly do you see as the connection between 
survivalism and magick?  (Despite the length of the apocalypse 
discussion, it was never clear to me what people involved thought 
was the connection.)

- Peggy -
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: grimoire@byron.u.washington.edu (John Greer)
Subject: Re: Singin' Those Apocalypse Blues
Keywords: gloom doom magic survival
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 00:23:23 GMT

In article <Bznzs9.146@acsu.buffalo.edu> oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown) writes:
>
>I've seen far more material on magick than I have on 
>survivalists.  Do the survivalists tend to belong to mainstream 
>environmental groups?  Do they have any BOOKS they point to 
>as classic texts?  Now if there was an alt.land-scarfers group, I 
>wouldn't have had to ask.:)
>

There's quite a bit of written material on survival issues, yes.  You
have to get it by mail for the most part, though, as I know of only a
few bookstores in the country that stock such titles.  I don't know
about "classic texts," though; the whole survival movement has only
been around since about the end of WWII, and that's not much time to
get classics written and acknowledged.  To be honest, most of what's
available is fairly lame, though there are some jewels.

To my knowledge, there are no single-volume "How To Survive" books out
there at all -- understandable, given the number of different kinds of
expertise needed.  The people I know who are pretty deeply into it 
generally have medium-sized libraries on the subjects this thread has
been covering.

Most of the folks I know in the survival movement think the mainstream 
environmental groups either have been fatally compromised by corporate
involvement or were corporate fronts from the first.

Me, I'm surprised that I _haven't_ heard of an alt.survivalism group;
it sounds like a natural...
 

>Most importantly, what exactly do you see as the connection between 
>survivalism and magick?  (Despite the length of the apocalypse 
>discussion, it was never clear to me what people involved thought 
>was the connection.)


Well, in a manner of speaking, this was my question too...

I brought up these issues originally because I wanted to hear some ideas
from other folks about how magic, and magical ways of thinking, might be 
applied to the problem of a potential breakdown of our current civilization.
(Implicit in this is the assumption that magic is actually useful in terms
of day-to-day living, and not just some kind of bizarre mental hobby.)
I think it was Ladislas who pointed out that, if a collapse takes place,
the survival of magical traditions might also be an issue worth taking
into account.

-- John Michael Greer
   grimoire@u.washington.edu

Xref: sparky alt.magick:6525 alt.satanism:2934
From: amanda@intercon.com (Amanda Walker)
Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.satanism
Subject: Re: Pentagrams
Date: 27 Dec 1992 00:05:23 -0500
Organization: InterCon Systems Corporation
NNTP-Posting-Host: intercon.com

joshua@cpac.washington.edu (Joshua Geller) writes:
>wrong. it the upright pentagram was used as a christian symbol.

Actually, it was used in both orientations.  I've even got a few
pictures or ornate Gothic tracery in the form of inverted pentagrams
from various monasteries and cathedrals in Europe.  I'll try to dig one
up and digitize it, although it may take a while (I moved recently, and
am still living out of boxes)...


Amanda Walker
InterCon Systems Corporation