From: cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,ca.politics,ba.politics,soc.motss
Subject: Re: "HIV-infected molest suspect outrages town"
Date: 14 Dec 92 18:35:22 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

Jim Graham gives about the only intelligent, calm response that
a homosexual has yet made to my posting:

In article <lioab9INNdmk@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM>, flar@bendenweyr.Eng.Sun.COM (Jim Graham) writes:
> In article <13577@optilink.COM>, cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer) writes:
# |# Repressed Memories: Things Are Probably Worse Than This
# |# 
# |# 	[Molestation victims frequently repress the memories
# |#	 of the molestation to protect themselves]
# |# 
# |# Why is this relevant?  At various times in the last year, I have
# |# pointed to the large number of admissions of child sexual abuse
# |# received by homosexuals posting in soc.motss, and suggested that
# |# there might be some connection between the child sexual abuse and
# |# their current sexual orientation -- and the ready response from
# |# other homosexuals was, "I wasn't molested, so there can't be
# |# a connection."
# 
# You need to explain more about the nature of the denial.  For instance,
# I have very clear memories of my childhood.  I remember a lot of good,
# a lot of bad, but there are no areas in my past that I am afraid to look
# into.  I do not remember any instance of molestation.  In fact, I was
# quite ignorant of the mechanisms of any sexual function until I was
# taught about them in school.  How can you dispute this absence in my
# memory as anything other than the fact that I was never molested?

You don't understand anything about repression of memories, do you?
I have friends who forgot everything about what happened -- and then 
one day, it came back.  The more traumatic it is, and the younger the
child, the more likely it is to be repressed.  As an example, consider
the Franklin Lipsker case.  His daughter, in addition to witnessing
her father murder a playmate, was raped at about 9.  She completely
repressed it until much later in life.

# |# The Results of Childhood Sexual Abuse
# |# -------------------------------------
# |# 
# |# Identifying With The Abuser
# |# 
# |# What are the consequences of childhood sexual abuse?  One sur-
# |# prising result is "traumatic bonding," similar to the well-known
# |# "Stockholm Syndrome," where hostages over time sometimes develop
# |# a sense of identity with the terrorist:
# |# 
# |#     The final component of victimology we note is that of 
# |#     traumatic bonding, described by Don Dutton and Susan Painter
# |#     (1982).  This refers to the development of strong emotional
# |#     attachment under conditions of intermittent maltreatment.
# |#     Experiments with dogs showed that those who were treated
# |#     intermittently with indulgence and punishment showed higher
# |#     degrees of bonding than dogs who had been consistently 
# |#     either indulged, punished, or isolated....
# |# 
# |#     This explains the strong attachments many abused children
# |#     have for their parents (Kempe and Kempe 1978) and the 
# |#     tendency of many sexual abuse victims to deny their own
# |#     hurt in sympathetic understanding of their abuser.[Bagley &
# |#     King, 109-110]
# 
# Note that this introductory paragraph indicates that many of the
# after-effects of childhood sexual abuse are not exclusive to sexual
# abuse, but also result from many other childhood (or even adult)
# traumas.  So, even if you prove some statistical parallels between
# these results of trauma and the behaviors of homosexuals, and
# even if you could prove common causality (specifically that the
# behaviors in homosexuals are the result of abuse rather than simply
# chosen), you still cannot claim that the underlying cause is *sexual*
# abuse rather than some other form of trauma.

I claim that the subject is not even considered anymore, and it
needs to be.

# |# Promiscuity
# 
# I could go into my personal theories about the popularity of casual
# sex among gay men, but suffice it to say that identifying one driving
# force that might compel a person to engage in numerous anonymous sexual
# encounters does not necessarily imply that everyone who engages in such
# activity is doing so for the same reason or that that reason is equally
# self-destructive.

No it doesn't.  But it should make someone take a look at it.

# |# Powerlessness
# |# 
# |# Bagley & King describe one traumatic effect of childhood sexual
# |# abuse as a sense of powerlessness[Bagley & King, 115-116] -- 
# |# which certainly describes the continual whining in soc.motss
# |# about being an oppressed minority in a heterosexist world.
# 
# It would seem to me that powerlessness would be characterized by a
# sense that you are unable to fight back and therefore a tacit acceptance
# of ones situation.  The "whining" that you apparently see in soc.motss
# is at least one level above powerlessness and the community activism
# that many individuals engage in (organizing boycotts, etc.) is anything
# but powerlessness.  Certainly, when I look back to when I was in the
# closet, I can identify many attitudes about my self and my sexuality
# which you might call "powerlessness".  So far, I have found soc.motss
# empowering.  Also, you should realize that many of the people in soc.motss
# are closeted to varying degrees and so may still feel powerless, but for
# very different reasons than that they were sexually abused as children
# (unless you are willing to categorize overwhelming lack of acceptance
# of one's sexual identity as a form of sexual abuse).

Your assumption.  Hardly the only possible explanation.

# |# Chemical Dependency
# |# 
# |# I'm reluctant to quote secondary sources (especially postings), 
# |# but I have been unable to locate the original documents, and
# |# while Arthur Hu received substantial namecalling and insults,
# |# I don't recall anyone questioning the validity of the data
# |# presented:
# 
# As I recall, there were a lot of substantive questions raised about
# the validity of the survey techniques including:
# 
# 	- It was a voluntary survey (I'm not sure what effect
# 	  this has but the point was raised)

It's usually hard to do an involuntary survey.

# 	- It was conducted by polling people entering/leaving
# 	  certain clubs where you would expect to see more
# 	  alcohol/substance abuse.  Certainly, the comparison
# 	  of rates vs. the general population did not compare
# 	  only to the general (non-homosexual?) population that
# 	  frequented similar "clubs".

I've read the original survey now.  Not true.  The surveys were
distributed through a gay newspaper, a variety of "homophile"
organzations, and a few gay bars.  The vast majority of the
surveys were from the newspaper.

# Even still, you've given data that might show a correlation between
# homosexuality and chemical use.  This might point out a need for
# further study to find causality, but it certainly does not warrant
# the conclusions you are quick to draw:

By the way, the survey done by S.F. Dept. of Public Health showed
that a lot of literature exists demonstrating higher levels of
drug abuse among homosexuals than among the general population.

# |# As you can see, a lot of homosexuals not only have chemical
# |# dependencies, but were sexually abused as kids -- more than
# |# you would expect, if there were no connection between their 
# |# sexual abuse, and their current behavior.
# 
# Where did you show that they were sexually abused as kids?  That
# is the hypothesis that you are still trying to prove at this point.

The survey itself.  28% of the gay/bi men said they were molested
as children; 48% of the gay/bi women as well.

# |# Suicide
# |# 
# |# The high rate of suicide among homosexual teenagers has long 
# |# been shown as "evidence" that the heterosexism of our society
# |# is destructive.  But a characteristic of childhood sexual abuse
# |# victims is abnormally high levels of suicide attempts and 
# |# successes.[Bagley & King, 121, 123, 141-142, Faller, 152, 306-307, 
# |# Everstine & Everstine, 13, 153]  Perhaps homosexuality isn't
# |# the reason for the suicides, but both are symptoms of the same
# |# underlying pain?
# 
# I don't know.  You would have to investigate these teenagers and
# see if there was a correlation with sexual abuse before you could
# even suggest such a conclusion.  Having lived through the nightmare
# of a closeted adolescence, I am far more inclined to believe that
# the closet is the cause than I am to believe your conclusion.

Well, of course.  IF you've repressed traumatic memories, I'm not
surprised.

# |# Interesting Parallels
# |# 
# |# As should be obvious from the list of symptoms described
# |# above, there is some astonishing parallelism between the char-
# |# acteristics of childhood sexual abuse victims, and homosexuals.
# 
# Parallels do not indicate anything about causality.  This is
# especially true when there are other explanations for each
# of the instances of parallelism which do not require causality.
# And as you showed above and I pointed out, many of the results of
# sexual abuse are shared with other traumatic situations.
# 
# Even if the parallelism indicates a causal link, you might find
# that the progression is "homosexual orientation implies traumatic
# conflict with society over sexual identity which is a form of
# sexual abuse which leads to the general after-effects of sexual
# abuse indicated above."  In fact, given my extensive experience
# with closeted homosexuals, I could almost believe this.  And the
# resolution to this causal chain is to ignore society's taboos and
# to come out of the closet.

But right now, NO OTHER EXPLANATION is even considered.  And it
needs to be.

# |# How Many Homosexuals Are There?
# |# -------------------------------
# 
# The more and more I think about it, the less I care what percentage
# of the population we comprise.  Do we deserve more or less respect
# based on how many of us there are?

No.  That's not my point.

# |# The Sexual Orientation of a Child Molester
# |# ------------------------------------------
# 
# In some sense do we really care?  If someone has a sexual identity
# that is so screwed up that they need to coerce children into sexual
# activity, then why would we suspect that the rest of their sexual
# identity is complete?  Why do you insist on making conclusions
# about homosexuality based only on studies of mentally unhealthy
# individuals?
# 
# If you are conducting a study to understand what drives a sexual
# molester, then it may be interesting to investigate their view
# of their sexual identity, but this has to be considered unreliable
# data from which to draw conclusions about non-molester's sexual
# identities.
# 
# If we were to ask a mass murderer about his interest in gun collecting
# and then try to make conclusions and judgements about gun collectors
# who had no homicidal history, what would you say to that?

If you found evidence that mass murderers were overrepresented among
gun owners, it would be very disturbing.  By the way, in the period
1984-1991, mass murders with guns were a minority of mass murders in
the U.S.

# |# Child Molestation As A Cause of Homosexuality
# |# ---------------------------------------------
# 
# I can easily understand that a child who is sexually molested by
# an adult can have their whole sexual identity thrown into turmoil.
# I can believe that such a child might pursue an orientation that the
# child is neither naturally inclined towards, nor that they would
# have originally pursued.  Given the nature of the behavioral
# disorders you outlined above, it would seem to make sense that
# the child's behavior as concerns his/her sexual identity would
# be even more problematic than in other behavioral areas.
# 
# Also, given that there is a vicious cycle where many victims of
# child sexual abuse grow up to become molesters themselves, this
# casts additional doubt that we should make any conclusions from
# a molesters claim to his or her sexual identity.  After all, since
# they are likely to have been molested as a child themselves, their
# sexual identity is already suspect and given that they have responded
# with aggressive and inappropriate sexual behavior as an adult, why
# do you think that their view of their sexual identity is an
# objective view?
# 
# 				...jim

I wouldn't trust their definition of their sexual identity either.
Make the determination based on what they do, not what they say.


-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
C++ is to C, as lung cancer is to lung.
Xref: sparky talk.politics.misc:64358 ca.politics:10344 ba.politics:7735