From: harp@netcom.com (Gregory O. Harp)
Subject: Re: Lifestyle Choices and Secular Reasoning
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 13:40:47 GMT

kellmeye@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (kellmeyer steven l) writes:

>harp@netcom.com (Gregory O. Harp) writes:

>>The USA was founded mainly by atheists, and laws were put in its
>>charters to keep it that way.  Since then, we've moved farther away
>>from religious influence, not closer.  Take a look at the number of
>>judgements in the last few decades restricting things like prayer in
>>schools, etc.

>Greg, I have no idea where they attempted to teach you history, but
>I don't think those NoDoze worked.  

Cute.  Apparently you missed the chapters that even I didn't, though.

>Not by *ANY* stretch of overblown
>historical imagination were the founders of our country atheists.  
>That's simply wrong.  The judgments given in the last few decades prove
>not one thing about the founding fathers of this country - who would
>undoubtedly be appalled at the incredible way their ideals were twisted.

Here's a refresher course for you, taken from a post just a few days
ago.  Thanks go to Tristan Riley (triley@weber.ucsd.edu).

   "The United States is in no sense founded upon the Christian
   doctrine"--George Washington

   "It does me no injury for my neighbor to say that there are twenty
   gods or no gods.  It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg"
   -- Thomas Jefferson

   "I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature"
   --Jefferson again

   "I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by
   the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the
   Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of.  My own mind is
   my own church"--Thomas Paine

   and for good measure "The Bible is not my book, and Christianity is
   not my religion.  I could never give assent to the long complicated
   statements of Christian dogma"--Abe Lincoln

   all quotes culled from "Salvation for Sale" by Gerard Thomas Straub

So, your statement is false.  It should have read, "Not by *ANY*
stretch of overblown historical imagination were the founders of our
country Christians."

And, BTW, I didn't mean to imply that the recent judgements reflected
the intentions of the founding fathers.  However, they would have
undoubtedly agreed with them, as you would have known had you been
familiar with their views before flaming me.

>>So you'd rather have a country where all individuals must prove their
>>mental competency?  Those who can't "prove" it are SOL?  Only those
>>with "state-approved competency" will have rights?

>We have that now.  It's called "genetic testing".  Any unborn child 
>which fails the test dies via abortion - at least the counselors work
>damn hard to see that they do.

Wow.  You can't get more tangential to the subject at hand than that.
We'll have to remember this one when they're handing out the awards at
the end of the year.  I'm talking about the possibility of a
government that would assume all citizens were mentally incompetent
until proven otherwise and you jump to the subject of diseased fetal
tissue.  And not only do you make such an incredible leap, but you
spout anti-abortion propaganda when you land.  Amazing.

>Furthermore, all individuals in a court of law must prove competency.
>Always have had to.  The simple test is age - you have to be at least
>X years old where X used to be 21.  If you're that old or older, 
>competency is assumed unless someone questions it, at which point proof
>of competency has to be shown. 

Exactly.  My opinion, and Hillary Clinton's (since that is how we got
on this subject), is that age should not be used as the sole criterion
when the court assumes competency.  Many of those under the "age of
competency" are more competent than many of those over it.  Also, the
court should never assume a lack of competency.  That's "guilty until
proven innocent."

>>You'd, of course, be using your own religious criteria, since you
>>place so little weight on "secular reasoning."

>Right now we're using _you're_ religious reasoning, only they call
>it "science".  Science is as dependent on faith as any other form of
>human thought.

I disagree with that statement.  Science is the only "faith" (using
your term here for the sake of argument) which offers _any_ proof with
which to back it.  Most of the physical phenomena we "believe in" may
be demonstrated.  We can view the physical results, even if you refuse
to accept the basis.  Religion relys on absolute faith.

>>Yes, but the Christian commandment "Honor thy mother and thy father"
>>makes the children slaves to their parents, which is synonymous with
>>property.  The choice is to do what mommy and daddy say or burn in
>>Hell.  That's "religious reasoning" for you.

>Greg, I'm really sorry you were abused as a child, but don't take it out
>on the rest of the world, alright?  

Oooh.  I'll be sure to print this out and mail it off to my parents,
with a copy to their lawyer.  Lessee... They can probably get you
_and_ UIUC for this one.  Too bad you didn't learn any more while you
were there...

>Your gross distortions of religion
>do no one any service.  How you turn the word "honor" into an equivalent
>of slavery is impressive - certainly the members of our military would
>be glad to know that you consider them slaves for honoring our Constitution.

Certainly, if it had been my wording in the first place.  It isn't.
It's that of _your_ religious leaders.  Do you wish to deny the words
of your God?  He said that you must honor your parents, and disobeying
them is surely dishonoring them.
-- 
-----------------Greg-Harp----------------harp@netcom.com------------------
  "I think I've reached that point / Where every word that you write /
  Of every blood dark sea / And every soul black night / And every dream
  you dream me in / And every perfect free from sin / And burning eyes /
  And hearts on fire / Are just the same old song" -- The Cure
From: patm@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Pat Murphy)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 16:08:27 GMT
Subject: Re: Chelsea's school ...
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA