From: wolffrnd@starburst.umd.edu (The Wolf Friend)
Newsgroups: alt.suicide.holiday
Subject: Re: POLITICLA ANIMAL
Date: 21 Jan 1993 07:51:16 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, Chesapeake Biological Laboratory
NNTP-Posting-Host: starburst.umd.edu

paladin@rajeesh.WPI.EDU (Ever Shifting Bearlike Being...) writes...
>
>In article <9145@lee.SEAS.UCLA.EDU> hagop@edison.seas.ucla.edu (Hagop D. 
>Janoyan) writes:
>>>In article <1j55f6INNpit@bigboote.WPI.EDU> paladin@pitt.WPI.EDU (Ever 
>>>Shifting Bearlike Being...) writes:
>>>>as for not going with our instincts?? i point you towards one of the basest 
>>>>things that man has.. the urge for sex.. for most males this seems to be a 
>>>>very overpowering urge... hmm... most of the strong emotions have a 
>>>tendancy to
>
>>Sex is an overpowering urge for some people, but I'd like to point you towards
>>all those people who have decided to remain celibate.  Or all the social
>>pressure placed on the act.  Or all the protection used during sex.  Or how
>>many people wait till marriage before "sex."  

The social pressure and the protection both appear to be a response to the
fact that sex is such a powerful urge; otherwise they wouldn't be necessary
very often because people wouldn't be so interested in sex.  Of course,
"powerful" and "overpowering" are not the same thing.  More on that in a
moment.

>and i'll point you towards those that break those vows or choice...
>notice the carefully placed most in the section above... most does not mean 
>all... not by any stretch of the imagination... there is an exception to 
>nearly every rule..
>some people may indeed have a decent amount of willpower and be able to 
>resist the urges..

One important thing to keep in mind is that many factors must be considered
when determining people's control over their instincts.  Just because lots of
people have sex it doesn't mean they don't necessarily have any control over
it.  If someone considers sex to be pleasant, harmless or beneficial, and
normal then there may exist no reason in their mind to abstain.  But if
sufficient reason presented itself, that same person might prove quite capable
of refraining from the act.  So personal and cultural factors play a definite
role in a person's response, as Hagop mentioned.  In other words, they can
partially override instinct.  On the other hand, many other people who have
(in their mind) some compelling reason to refrain will often go to great
lengths to circumvent that restriction.  Those who fail to obtain sex often
tend to be miserable, even stigmatized.  And although rape is currently
considered a crime of violence, its origins are sexual.  What I'm trying to
say is that I personally don't believe that the average person has no control
whatsoever over such instincts as sex or eating, but at the same time I
believe many people's control is rather tenuous and easily broken.  That is
why I prefer the term powerful rather than overpowering; a mere semantic
distinction perhaps, but more descriptive in my mind.

>how bout commenting on the emotion bit?
>the storng emotions like i said seem to basically get rid of rational thought..
>
> Paladin (ever shifting bearlike being....)	     

I read your original comments but that post has now expired, so I'll have to
do this reply from memory.  I agree that strong emotions can sometimes affect
or even temporarily eradicate rational thought.  I know this all too well from
personal experience; and I've observed such a response in others as well. Even
a court of law differentiates between a crime of passion vs. premeditated
crimes.  The feeling is so strong that the person seems to operate on instinct
alone at that moment.  However, I don't believe that the strength of the
emotion alone governs one's thoughts or reactions. Some people can experience
extremely powerful emotions yet remain in control; while others may fall apart
at something quite minor by comparison. For myself, I find that my perception
of a situation has at least as much to do with my ability to maintain rational
thought as does the strength of emotion.  For example, if I am in a very
frightening situation which I fully understand but am powerless to prevent, I
may remain coldly rational even though my heart is pounding wildly; in
particular I am thinking of such a situation as being in a car which is about
to crash.  Or if I know what must be done in another completely different
situation, then I may also keep a tight control over my rationality even when
others may be panicking.  But if something touches a raw nerve, a sore spot
deep inside which I have never fully come to terms with, my inner confusion
mixes with the powerful emotion and quickly spirals out of control.  Each one
feeds the other in an ever-increasing Maelstrom of turmoil, a razor sharp
whirlpool which possesses no top or bottom, nor any other normal dimensions
which can be defined.  At that time no amount of rational discussion,
insistence or logical comments on the part of another can break through that
impenetrable vortex.  The only way to get through to me when I'm in that much
pain is to use instinctive-based reassurance and gentle words to calm me down.
However, once I have managed to understand and accept the source of that sore
spot inside, I can much better handle it and remain rational during even
fairly intense pain (or whatever emotion is being experienced at the time). 
So my perception can either acerbate or mitigate my reaction and emotional
state.  What makes it even more complex is that the "understanding" must come
from the very core of my being in order to achieve maximum control.  A logical
understanding on the surface only, which is underlain by sufficient
doubt, may help some in the beginning but will invariably be overridden once
the emotion starts to get really strong.

Of course there is a point beyond which a person cannot handle the emotion no
matter what, when it becomes so powerful that nothing else matters even when
the situation is fully understood.  And most people don't seem to possess a
very strong degree of control or a very good understanding of their inner
feelings in the first place, so it's easy for things to get out of hand. 

The "higher" organisms are such darned complex critters.... *sigh*

Kathleen (Wolffriend)
---------------------
"Cage of freedom, that's our prison
 We're the jailer and captive combined
 Cage of freedom, cast in power
 All the trappings of our own design"   ("Cage of Freedom" by Jon Anderson)