From: mykes@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Schwartz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Amiga Future?!?y
Date: 31 Jul 92 09:49:45 GMT
Organization: Amiga makes it possible
X-NewsSoftware: GRn 1.16f (beta) by Mike Schwartz & Michael B. Smith

In article <tony.712534832@ais.org> tony@ais.org (Tony Poole) writes:
> mykes@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Schwartz) writes:
> >I just want CBM to keep up.  They started out with a huge lead in the industry,
> >with multitasking, superior graphics capabilities, and a GUI that works
> >better than anyone else's.  There has been a steady decline in the Amiga's
> >relative power and now the Amiga is WAY WAY WAY behind in everything but
> >operating system.  And now the OS is losing its edge, too.  You can't tie
> >an OS to a slow 68000 and 8 year old hardware technology and expect to
> >push the envelope very far.
>
> Maybe they don't wanna push the envelope.  You ever think maybe their *aim*
> is the common user, not the super-duper-workstation-a-holic type people?
> This is what the 500 is aimed towards certainly, and most definitely the
> 600.  The CDTV fits this category as well.  Why, just why, would you but a
> CDTV in the first place?  Really, I'm seriously confused by this.  Until you
> saw which direction it was gonna take (aimed towards educational vs games vs
> serious CDROM apps) what's the point?  Just cause it's a new product?  I'm
> not blasting your descision, just seriously interested in your logic.
>

The Sega Genesis and Super Nintendo are aimed at the common person, too,
and they are cheaper and to a large degree better than the Amiga, hardware
wise.  OK, you be content with CBM not pushing the envelope, but in not
doing so, they are keeping even below average quality systems from becoming
available.  And without decent quality systems, you aren't going to get
decent quality software.  Without decent quality software, I'm outa here.

SO with me gone, that leaves YOU to write your own software.  Get the
picture?

> >There has been ZERO innovation from CBM.  Lots of enhancements, yes.  But the
> >dike has sprung soooo many leaks and CBM engineers don't have enough fingers
> >to plug them all.
>
> Leaks on the high end.  Common users are bone dry.  Consumers live for
> enhancements.  Most people, myself included, can't afford a new system every
> year and a half.  If I could, I would have to first sell my current system
> and put the money towards the new system.  I could do that by posting to
> c.s.a.marketplace.  How many other people do you think have this
> opportunity?  Not many.  It becomes a hassle, so instead of getting the "new
> system", they get the enhancement that takes them to the level of the new
> system, which may not always be the most cost efficient upgrade, but is
> affordable *at the moment*.
>

Leaks on the low end.  The 386sx box you talk about gives your friends
who are computer illiterate a real machine that can run more complicated
apps if they become more literate.  And if they don't, they will have
millions and millions and millions of people to help them out in
becoming more literate.  Look, that 386sx is as powerful as a 16MHz
A3000 and runs so much more software it ain't funny.  And that 386 box
costs so little more than an A500 and monitor, it is silly to consider
the A500 anymore.

> Cost me about $1000, gave me 2 meg chip ram, KS 2.04, a faster floppy drive,
> hard drive, 14MHZ, etc.  It was great.  It was (is) like I bought a
> *totally new system*.  Really.  KS2.0 gives that feeling, in and of itself.
> Might not to you, but you're used to high end systems, right?  I've only
> really been near a workstation.
>

The only high end system I am really used to is the A3000.  But I also
at least look at other systems.  I also am VERY price concious, and
very consumer oriented.  I am as much a consumer as you are.  The typical
Amiga user isn't using Amigas - that's my gripe.  They are using those
386 boxes.  That's my gripe.

> Now, you look at that $1000 and think, well for that price....but that's my
> point.  I really couldn't justify $1000 all at once, but with all the
> enhancements, I could over time.  'Course I could just *save* my money, but
> with car payments, having a two month premature baby in the hospital a $1200
> a day for 5 weeks in the hospital, insurance bills, rent, house payments,
> etc...that's not so easy.
>

I am not the one who is urging you to upgrade to better Amigas, CBM is.
They want to hit you up at least 2 times - once as a sucker for getting
that A1000 for $2000 and another for getting an A2000 or A3000 or mumble.
Funny how you mention you spent $2000 for a lot lousier system than
you can get now for far less money...

> These "enhancements" you seem to downplay, enabled me to gain a better
> system, to which I otherwise couldn't.  A *new* system.
>

A new OLD system is a better way to describe your setup.

> Now, there really nothing I need a 68030 board for (other than running that
> neato VMEM program that requires a MMU - and I really don't *need* this - I
> never run out of my 3-1/2 megs).  I don't *need* it, but I want it, which is
> mostly a result of reading these newsgroups and hearing about everything.
> Will I get one?  Maybe, but like I said, I don't need it.  I can maybe
> afford it, and that's the only reason I will get it.  Most people *can't*
> afford it, and won't get it.
>

Most people aren't buying Amigas.  They aren't buying Macintoshes either.  They
are buying Segas, Nintendos and 386 boxes.

>
> >I am actually happy with the Amiga.  I have a similar opinion to Skip
> >Sauls, though - CBM SUCKS, the Amiga is GOOD.  It used to be CBM
> >sucks, the Amiga is GREAT.  The Amiga is still useful, and there are
> >a few apps worth using the Amiga for.  But fewer as time has gone on.
>
> The Amiga *is* great - for what I do, and for what many other average users
> do.  Really, if you think about it, the average user has no reason to buy a
> clone over an Amiga and vice-versa.  For what they need, either will
> suffice.  Most people buy clones, because "well, the guy I work with has
> one".
>

Most people buy clones because they are as cheap as the A500 with monitor,
even though they never even have heard about the Amiga at all.  That's my
gripe.  All of the consumers I know do not know what an Amiga is - that
it is even a computer.  Thanks a lot, CBM.  That's CBM's fault.  Period.

> As far as the apps - there is not a *single* thing that I need to do on my
> machine that I don't have an app for.  There used to be a few things I
> wanted to simplify, but getting 2.04 with ARexx plugged that gap.
>

You only know the apps that you have or can find for the Amiga.  I personally
want an app to help me keep my income tax records.  Can't find one for the
Amiga at all, let alone with half the features I need.  Yet there are 15
to choose from for that 386 box.

> I run a *vast* amount of PD stuff, and for the most part, a lot of it is
> better than commercial products.  Point in case here is Wasp vs ADPro2.0.
> I have both, and don't use ADPro much.  For what *I* do, ADPro was a waste
> of money.
>

Call compuserve and look at the Amiga software base there.  There are all
the fish disks and about 4 total SIGs.  Then look at the PC board and see
far more PD software and see 50 total SIGs.  What did you say you want?

> Now, I've been going through PC archives for some useful software to take to
> work to make living on those machines easier.  I'll tell ya, the PD stuff,
> while there may be more of it for the PC, is not nearly as flexible as Amiga
> PD, and not nearly as well programmed *on average*, than the Amiga stuff.
> For every program that does what it says right away without fuss, there are
> 10 that don't.  Most Amiga PD programs are straightforward.
>

This is simply false.  I find that the bulk of PD stuff on any machine is
worthless.  Many PD programs crash my machine, running OS 2.0.

>
> >Some people are just downers all the time.  Marc hasn't been right the whole
> >time - far from it.  But I am not stupid.  I see the writing on the wall.
> >I see zero sales of Amigas.  I go to the local Amiga store and see no new
> >apps for months at a time.  I see no compelling games to buy anymore either.
> >THe best games are ports from other machines now.  I see neato hardware from
>
> I could care less whether software is ported, as long as it's done well.
>

Ported software is an imitation of the real thing.

> The writing you are seeing is being viewed differently than the common user
> sees it.  You are making money from the Amiga, most people aren't.  This
> makes a *big* difference in perception.
>

I am not making money from the Amiga.  I am making money from the Sega.  I
tried to make money from the Amiga, but it is useless.  The Amiga has a
really good collection of rendering software, yet those companies are
penniless, compared to the smallest of PC software companies.  Given
little chance to make a buck, I like other developers move on to machines
that do make money.  And YOU YOU YOU lose, not me.  YOU have to buy one
of those other machines to get the software.

> >I read Marc Barret posts for several years, not just a few months.  I never
> >bashed CBM like I intend to from now on.  I never bashed the Amiga, and I
>
> Fine, bash Commodore.  I don't see what it's gonna acomplish, with the same
> old arguments.
>

Same old arguments?  Figure out WHY I never bashed CBM before.  The Amiga had
an edge.  It is gone now.  There's not much CBM can do to change it, either.
I flame CBM becaues they SUCK and they are killing the machine I LOVE.

>
> >not much of a market to induce anyone to make products for it.  CDTV is
> >a lousy audio CD player - I know, I have one and that's all I use it for.
>
> I would *never* buy a CDROM drive to play audio.  You want an audio CD
> player, buy a good pioneer or denon.
>

I threw my support behind CBM and CDTV.  I did one of the first games for
CDTV.  That's why I have one.  I'm like you - I have more important things
to buy than an Audio CD player if I already have one that is functional.
Yet my assessment of CDTV is 100% accurate.  It stinks as a computer,
and it stinks as a CD player.  It stinks.  And CBM blew MILLIONS of
dollars on it instead of giving that money to John Bickers to do
a 1-2-3 clone or to Lotus for the rights to port the REAL 1-2-3
or to amiga dealers to help them do local advertising like all the
IBM stores do or to do national advertising so that all those
common people who are buying 386 boxes will at least know what
an Amiga is.

> >Nothing at all compelling to buy on disk.  My CDTV player doesn't recognize
> >many of my music disks.  It doesn't recognize the buttons on the front
> >pannel - they beep but the machine sits there doing nothing.  Push
> >fast forward button and nothing happens.  Hit play and the disk starts
> >playing song 1 again from the start.  Piece of JUNK!
>
> Well....I don't know about this.  I know three people that have CDTV's and
> they all work fine.
>

I've seen three posts that claim the CDTV doesn't work, just as I claim.
Boy, that makes CDTV a real reliable box, eh?

> I still wanna know the logic behind the purchase.
>

I already told you I did software for CDTV to HELP CBM sell the thing.
I am a wise enough consumer to not buy a machine without a compelling
reason.

> >And here's the amusing part - I go to a PC store that is the size of
> >a large department store - in fact it was a federated (previously owned
> >by Atari Corp <- jack tramiel) store before.  50 aisle of PC hardware
> >and software.  50 different PCs running all kinds of apps that I wish
> >I had right now - I need an income tax planning package, know of one
> >for the Amiga?  And there are 486 boxes with 4MB of RAM, 80Meg Hard
> >drives, 256 color VGA graphics, and built-in CD ROM drives for $1100.
> >Compare that with CDTV.  CDTV pales in comparison.
>
> A friend of mine uses a comumercial tax preparation package, but I don't
> know the name of it.  Therefore there is at least *one* available.  If you
> really want the name, send me EMail, and I'll ask him the next time I talk
> to him.
>

No, post it so everyone can go out and get it.  Obviously, this is a well
known application - you forget the name (for the humor impaired: this is
sarcasm, don't try it at home unless you have lots of practice).

> Now, tell me what you want the 486 w/4meg, 80meg HD, all those colors, CDROM
> to do.  I mean, why are you buying it.  Better yet, what are you seriously
> intending to use it for *that an average user would*?  Remember that cuts
> out programming.  (and BTW, I've read your statements in other posts saying
> "that's where the money is", so don't BS me)
>

That machine comes with 6 CD-ROMS, including microsoft bookshelf, compton's
encyclopedia, and 4 other titles that I would indeed use.  And the 486 part
of it gives CD-ROM software of the future enormous potential.  And the hard
disk and floppy drive and keyboard gives it the potential to be used as
a computer at no extra cost (i.e. with CDTV you have to buy separate keyboard,
there is NO hard disk option, no OS 2.0 option, separate floppy drive, etc.).

Do you know that CBM has already done the IDEAL CD-ROM application?  It is
called AmigaVision, and they give it away with some of their computers.  It
doesn't work on a CDTV because the OS and AmigaVision combined use up almost
ALL of the RAM in the CDTV.  That 486 machine would swallow AmigaVision whole
and still have 3/4 of the machine available for the resources that AmigaVision
would make great use of.

>
> >You simply don't get out much.  For every Amiga store with 4 aisles of
> >software and a few hardware products behind a counter, there are
> >50 stores like the ex-federated store (CompUSA, FWIW).  Go get a copy
> >of PC-Shopper magazine for $3 and see 700 pages (more like a phone
> >book) of COMPUTERS (in general) advertised and not one Amiga ad or
> >dealer in the thing.
>
> For every Amiga PD program, there are 7 PC programs that do, or try to do
> the same.  I mean, I looked for a small util to allow you to build a
> database of directories, and allow you to type a partial path in to cd to.
> There were many.  Almost all did the same thing.  What's the point?  I
> finally settled on one, and it *still* wasn't as quick as CCD for the Amiga.
> But that's not my point.  My point is quality, not quantity.  There are
> indeed quality PC commercial products, and then there are the wanna be
> products, that advertise to be cheaper than the "other" package, but  fall
> sufficiently behind in features as to be unacceptable.
>

Quality?  You talk about PD software, which one or two or three people
pour some creative juices into.  I talk about commercial software that
I as a consumer want to run on my computer.  I talk about commercial
software that a hundred programmers spend a thousand man years making.
They don't make this software for me the power user, they make it for
you, the consumer (and me the consumer).

I bought EVERY commercial word processor 2 years ago for the company
I worked for looking for ONE that even came close to generating
Mac-quality printed output.  Didn't find one.  Still haven't found one.
Quality, my butt.

> Quantity doesn't impress me.  If so, I'd be in awe of lemmings.
>
>
> >People like Mike Schwartz see 68030 Macintoshes selling for half the
> >price of the A3000 and little more than a new A500/A600 setup.  People
>
> Then why aren't you buying a Mac to program on?  Seriously, I wanna know.
>

I am buying a 486 clone instead.  Now you know.  Why?  Because it costs
less than an A3000, is much more powerful, runs an OS that is the equal
of AmigaOS (OS/2 - it even has ARexx), and it has a FUTURE as well as
a past.  You see, at the high end and the low end, CBM is being eaten
alive.  This is NEW, but it has been coming on for a long time.

>
> >CBM seems to be satisfied with what they have done to the Amiga.  I remember
> >the back-door that the original Amiga team put into 1.2:  We made Amiga,
> >they fucked it up.  I can't agree more.
>
> Commodore isn't aiming the machine directly at you presently Mike.  This is
> much of the cause for your dissatisfaction.
>

Commodore isn't aiming the machine at anyone.  They are lucky anyone buys one.
You don't realize that almost all new Amiga sales are to previous Amiga owners.
This does not indicate a growing market, or a healthy one.  They emphasize the
OS over the hardware.  They emphasize the OS over applications that make the
machine useful.  They emphasize CHEAP over quality.  They make ME sell computers
for them.  They make ME do their advertising for them.  They make ME write
software I need because I can't find it at the store.

> You can't please all of the people all of the time.
>

I am not flaming you.  Just CBM.  I am not flaming the Amiga.  Just CBM.
I WAS an Amiga advocate for 7 years, having been on Usenet since 1985
when the Amiga came out.  I quit my job at 3Com because they wouldn't
support the machine.  I quit my job at Electronic Arts because they
wouldn't let me program the machine.  I wrote 3 games for the machine,
which is my specialty, so that you fellow Amiga fans might get some
entertainment from your machine.  I coerced 4 different companies to
buy 20 Amigas hoping to do my part in creating a demand for better
applications.  I did my part to try to get affordable powerful
computing into your hands.  SOrry I can't please you.

>
>
>
> ---
> Look!  I deleted unnecessary sig's!  Maybe it's a disease and every
> c.s.a.advocacy reader will catch it!
>
>
> --
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Tony Poole                       tony@umcc.ais.org * tony@irie.ais.org
> Traverse City, MI USA          tony@cherry1.trv.mi.us * tony@cherry1.UUCP

--
Amiga programmer of: GRn, MailMinder, Budokan, Beyond Dark Castle, Dark Castle
Sega Genesis programmer of: Dick Tracy and Marble Madness.
Mike Schwartz  (ames!zorch!amiga0!mykes or mykes@amiga0.sf-bay.org)
1124 Fremont Ave.
Los Altos, CA 94024
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy