From: javad@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com (Agha Javad)
Subject: Re: To agha Javad , Last Part ( was: Re: To Agha Javad , PART II )
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 20:52:36 GMT
Organization: LabaniyyAtee-e-Sar-e-Koocheh

In article <By3MxH.9oK@ccu.umanitoba.ca> ebrahim@ee.umanitoba.ca (Mohamad Ebrahimi) writes:
>
>In article: <1992Nov20.003246.20101@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com>javad@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com
>(Agha Javad) writes:
>
>>In article <BxzJx6.5Kt@ccu.umanitoba.ca> ebrahim@ee.umanitoba.ca (Mohamad >Ebrahimi) writes:
>
>      [ Almost the whole article deleted ]
>
>   After a few long articles, this is my impression that this discussion
>   can not be conclusive, because the trend of repeating allegations, without
>   showing a small piece of evidence, is still as powerful as before the
>   begining of this discussion. Therefore I won't continue this series of
>   articles. To make clear what made me decide so, I'll show a few allegations,
>   from the last article by Agha Javad at the end of this article. Some of
>   these allegations, surprisingly enough, are standard fabrications of MKO
>   and some other are so novel that even MKO has not come up with them, or
>   at least I have not heard them from MKO propagandists on s.c.i or anywhere
>   else.
>
>   But before closing the article, I'd like to remind two important points, both
>   to Agha Javad and to the netters. During all discussions about the situation
>   of Iranian army after Islamic revolution, the executions of generals,
>   the arrested or fired officers, neither me nor Agha Javad talked about
>   the plan for coupe in Nojhe ( Hamedan) airbase, in late 1979, which was
>   the source of many mistrusts toward the army, by people and IRI, and the
>   consequent arrests. I wonder how Agha Javad didn't consider this important
>   factor in his analysis about the army, and especially about the pilots and
>   officers of airforce who were arrested or procecuted. We also didn't talk
>   about the greate dependence of army on foreigner specialists and to the
>   Generals, the expulsion of whom from the army naturaly caused big
>   weaknesses in the army, and therefore necessitating the establishment of
>   other defence forces to protect the revolution and the whole country. And 
>   since I'm sure Agha Javad won't object to the expulsion of tens of
>   thousands of military or nonmilitary specialsits, the majority of which
>   were Americans and wouldn't work for the good of Iran after revolution,
>   I won't elaborate on this issue.

Just to say that I agree that we are discussing deeper and deeper into details.
But my point is not whether or not the armed forces were guilty or innocent or
what have you, since given the time and the non-existent legal system right 
after the revolution, this was subject to much interpretation.  My point
was that for whatever reason, the regime cracked down on the armed forces,
in effect dropping the countries' defences.  At the same time, it took an 
aggressive stance as far as exporting the revolution, liberating Palestine,
taking hostages, etc. without having any force to back it up or even defend
itself.  All I am saying is this was a reckless policy.  Yes, you can always
argue that everybody in the shah's armed forces were "guilty".  You can
also argue that all that was in the past, and let's have those of you who are
willing to work for your country continue to serve.  These are two extremes,
and both have been seen throughout various revolutions.  The mere fact that
at least until 1985, there was only one general (brigadier general ZahirNejad)
(and of course Fallahi, who was killed early on) in the entire Iranian armed
forces should tell you which course the IRI decided to take. The IRI was not
willing to make room for anyone who follows a different ideology, not just 
in the military, but throughout society, and this policy was also destructive.
These are the points I tried to make in this discussion.

Regarding expulsion of American advisors and dependence on foreign technology,
I have this to say:

Many in our country feel abused or taken advantage of by the US involvement 
in Iran before the revolution, especially after 1953.  But all cases aren't
like this, many countries have mutually beneficial military agreements and
alliances with more powerful countries, e.g. Italy and US, South Korea and 
US, Japan and US, etc.  I guess the US screwed up whatever chance it had in 
Iran and other similar places like Nicaragua by supporting the wrong bunch
and putting its nose where it didn't belong.  But we shouldn't let this 
become a block for us, and judge all of our outside relations as similar
to that of ours with the US before 1979, i.e., an ineveitbale onesided-ness.
We need good leaders who can achieve independence not through isolation, but
through open and fair relations with the outside world. It has been 13 years,
and we are not even close to this situation yet (We are just beginning, unless
someone comes and screws things up again).  TO this day, our military remains
dependent on foreign technology, and other than light arms and artillery,
the core of our armed forces remains American equipment.  We are beginning
to replace things with Russian equipment, but again we are dependent on 
foreigners, our cadets go abroad to get training, and the technology is old
and inferior.  If our leaders were smart, we would be doing a lot better,
but we will never become even close to independent from foreign military 
technology until we become an industrial power, and even then we will need
cooperation and collaboration with other countries.  This should be a priority
for IRI, but after 13 years, our industrial base has declined, our young 
population has increased, the Universities have fallen behind, and these kids
don't have enough school places or jobs and many are just being wasted. Like
this, we'll never become an industrial power. Just now, some people in the IRI
are realizing this, but it is too little too late.  These things are the
job of the gov't, not exporting revolution and broadcasting propaganda and 
trying get involved in every fight they can.

>
>
>>Thank you for your discussion, I hope you have learned as much from me
>>as I have from you.  It was quite a time for all of us.
>
>   Thank you. I certainly have.
>
>
>>Agha Javad
>
>Mohammad
>
>########################################################################
>
>   And here's some examples from Agha Javad's last article:
>
>
>>                            This brings up the question, why did Banisadr
>>escape?  Why couldn't he stay?  Because you and I both know that he would
>>be executed, and he couldn't even defend himself.  He said he is willing
>                                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>to surrender himself if they televise his trial, but the regime refused. I
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>am not supporting him, I am just pointing out the way the regime deals with
>>opposition.
>

He did say that, it was in foreign news broadcasts into Iran, and he was 
directly quoted.

>
>>I thought Chamran was allies was with BaniSadr, and he was mysteriously killed
>           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>right after Banisadr was overthorwn.  I thought that was too much of a 
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>coincidence.

Chamran had announced support for Banisadr many times throughout the war,
so that was just my impression.  He was killed right after or during Banisadr's
overthrow.

>
>
>
>
>>It was the IRI which isolated Iran and caused an embargo against Iran,
>
>
>>Nor can you convince the families of those young men and women who were
>>executed and raped in Evin prison and were billed for the bullets.
>              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This is also well known. Don't believe it if you don't want to, but I heard  
such cases myself in Iran.

>
>>lots of color pictures of gov't officials at cheap prices,that this
>>war was worth it, and it was right to send your kids to liberate
>                                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>Ghods and Karbala while we were buying weapons from Israel.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Liberating Ghods and Karbala were an openly announced objective of the IRI
during the war, and yes, they bought weapons from Israel, or haven't you
heard of Iran-Contra?(There were other cases too)

> 
>>                                                             Not to mention
>>those whose houses were bulldozed right after a bombing raid while they were
>            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>still under the rubble, just so the regime could make it look like everything
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>was normal.  
>

Again, I rely on first hand accounts in Iran during the time, and people openly
knew about this.  You may call them lies if you wish, but I leave it up to the
netters to ask people who were there in the middle of it all at the time,
and see for themselves.

Thank you once again, and I leave you in the hope that our country one day
becomes strong, independent, educated, peaceful, and free.



Agha Javad
(baghghal)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian