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Date:         Tue, 21 Jul 1992 07:39:00 +0100
From:         KUBASKA@CSBBYS51.BITNET
Subject:      Re: SLovaks/Hungarians

I fully agree with Kamil's  given reasons of Hungarian unpopularity among
the Slovaks. Anyway, I've got to point out, that it is incorrect to speak
about "thousand years of Hungarian effort to annihilate the Slovak nation".
Until so called "Austrian-Hungarian settlement" Hungarians were the
nation in political sense of the word including Magyars, Slovaks, Chorvats,
Romanians. Just the raise of the Magyar nationatism, about two hundred
years ago, makes situation in Hungaria unbeareble for nonmagyar nations.
But 200 years of oppression were long enough to create Slovaks' antipathy
to Hungarians.
More important thing is situation in today's Hungaria. About 200 000 Slovaks
lived there after world war II. Now they are estimated to 10 000 and lot
of them though claiming they're Slovaks, didn't speak slovak at all.
Nobody can say, that it is result of communist goverment. In Slovakia
there are about 200 000 Hungarians learning up in hundreds of hungarian
language schools in spite of communist past of the country.
Now you can say who is nationalist.
That all and today's Budapest policy as well, are the reasons why the
Hungarians are not "welcomed with open arms", but just welcomed.
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Date:         Wed, 29 Jul 1992 20:55:02 EDT
From:         Henry Kucera <HENRY@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Skvorecky article

Mr. Graber, the Czechs often say (in their own ironic way): "We suffered for
three hundred years" ('tri sta let jsme trpeli')--meaning the Habsburg rule. To
which my Slovak friends reply, essentially: 'That's nothing, we have been
 complaining for a thousand years.' Interestingly enough, neither perished!

 I am confident that all this will get better later in the 21st century but
that will be too late for me, alas. Cheers, H.K.
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Date:         Sat, 25 Jul 1992 10:37:37 EDT
From:         Henry Kucera <HENRY@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Forwarded mail for LISTS.SLOVAK-L

>Posted on 24 Jul 1992 at 22:48:19 by BrownVM Mailer (103837)
>
>> Paul Mego refers to the practice of Communist "democratic centralism" from
>>Prague.Ironically, the longest practioner of Communist "democractic centralism
>> by far (20 years) was Gustav Husak, a Slovak. Just one of the ironies of a
>> confused history.
>
>>    Regards, H.K.
>
>Excuse me, but I don't understand what is the argument.
>
>Sincerely,
>M. Palus

 The argument is that you cannot blame everything on the Czechs, especially not
"Communist democratic centralism from Prague", to quote Mr. Mego. I thought
that that was pretty obvious. Apparently, it was not. H.K.
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Date:         Thu, 30 Jul 1992 07:28:00 +0100
From:         KUBASKA@CSBBYS51.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Veritas vincit!

As you know CS was split to two parts after Munchen treaty. S became
half independent half dependent state. After "viedenska arbitraz"
(I don't know english equivalent) 1/3 of S became to be hungarian.
Anyway, hungarian army invaded S. S. was in very bad situation
(lack of armament,lack of officers, with no alies,...).
Slovak army pulled out occupants out of S anyway.
The response on Slovak and Czech part was inappropriate to invasion
of the "five brotherly armies" in 68. We had (and have) CS army.
What army (well payed men) is for? I allways thought, that army
is for defending motherland against occupants.
I hope this is the answer to your question.

Respectfuly
    Marian Kubaska
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Date:         Sat, 25 Jul 1992 06:10:22 MDT
From:         Milan PALUS <PCPMP@CSEARN.BITNET>

>>Furthermore, it seems appropriate to point out that the actions of the
>>SLovaks are frequently attributed to "nationalism" by the Czech papers
>>(and their point nof view is echoed in the New York Times and other
>>western papers). /of\  It seems more useful to me to view their actions
>>as appropriate from an economic point of view.   While the Klaus economic
>>program has brought prosperity to the Czech economy, it has been a
>>disaster for Slovakia.  One could argue that Czech nationalism prompted
>>such an economic program.  However, that would not be my argument.

>Can't figure that paragraph out at all. What IS the argument? That Slovakia
>should stay socialist to preserve its state-run armaments industry? And keep
>selling tanks to Syria which already owes $1 billion for past deliveries?

Probably there are only two ways of the economic policy-  the socialist
one as you described above and the one of Mr. Klaus.

(I don't support the idea of so called third way, I mean the very
particular steps in the reform, tailored to conditions in the Czech lands
and ignoring the situation in Slovakia. The opposition usually calls this
way "the return to the capitalism of the 19-th century" and
in Slovak conditions it is adequate, only people used to live on a
standard of the (socialist) 20th century.
There are various ways of state influence on economy, which are not
socialist. Some development programs are necessary, otherwise
Slovakia has the only chance to build the industrial infrastructures
"by a natural way" in some 100 years.)



> Well, thanks, I am finally getting it all sorted out: SDL and Mr. Weiss are
>not Communists, there are no neo-fascists in the Slovak parliament, only true
>democrats, the man who asked asylum in Switzerland (because he removed Meciar's
>StB documents at Meciar's orders) made it all up, Stefanik's air crash was "a
>very suspicious event" (Oliver Stone is making a movie about it) and Orwell is
> alive and well in Banska Bystrica.


I am a poor man living in doubts and sometimes I envy the owners of truth.
Sometimes.

With compliments,
Milan Palus
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Date:         Tue, 28 Jul 1992 12:36:00 N
From:         FALK2399@DS0RUS54.BITNET
Subject:      Veritas vincit!

>Your contribution is nice example of czech conformity. It is one saying:
>"We will fight if they are not here. We will step back if they appear."
>Do you forget the Hitler's occupation of Bohemia without one shut, do
>you forget the death of democracy in 48, do you forget the soviet
>invasion in 68??? Yes, Veritas vincit but let it win alone, or let
>someone else to fight for it, thats your standpoint.
>Respectfuly yours
>             Marian Kubaska

Mr. Kubaska, your criticism of the Czech attitude in the events in 1938,1948 &
1968 is respected but not completely understood. Would you please explain  in
some more detail what alternative response would you expect and accept if
the Slovak nation would have played the Czech part in the events mentioned?

Regards,

M.Havranek, Stuttgart, FRG
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Date:         Wed, 29 Jul 1992 07:32:00 +0100
From:         KUBASKA@CSBBYS51.BITNET
Subject:      Re: SDL - answer requested

Dear Mr. Janacek
I am sorry that you are not living in democratic country.
Othervise you should know, that it is not my duty to deliver some proofs
that there are no communist in SDL.
You have to prove that there are some.
Don't you know something like presumpcion of inocency.
respectfuly
           Marian Kubaska
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Date:         Fri, 24 Jul 1992 11:27:00 N
From:         FALK2399@DS0RUS54.BITNET
Subject:      Veritas vincit!

>       Josef Skvorecky had a lengthy article published in yesterday's
>New York Times.  It is extremely anti-SLovak.  Would there be any interest
>among list participants in reading it?  If so, I will send it over the
>weekend.

>Louise Hammer


Louise, please go ahead and do send it! Even though the majority of the
Czechs are not anti-Slovak, and they have never been, they have never
showed much sympathy for the Slovak extremities ( Tiszo, Mach, Durcansky,
and Meciar).

The other thing is to keep a free discussion going. So even though
we may not be very happy about Mr Skovorecky's article, we have to insist
in its free availability. We have been fighting for freedom and democracy
for all our lives, haven't we and we are not going to give in, never, never!

I remember a young Slovak colleague of mine and his explosive refusing
response to my mentioning what once Voltair had exclaimed:"Gentleman, I
don't agree with you, but I am ready to do anything you are allowed to
continue saying this publicly further on!" I do hope 'Veritas vincit' will
remain in the Czech president's flag for we certainly are committed to it!

Affectionately,

M. Havranek, Stuttgart, FRG
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Date:         Wed, 29 Jul 1992 00:06:27 EDT
From:         Pete Tamas <GNOME@TEMPLEVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Havel

>>References to Masaryk are also not convincing in this context.  This
>>reminds me of a comment that Kokie Roberts made recently on David
>>Brinkley's Sunday morning show when someone referred to the "great
>>American hero, Abraham Lincoln."  She said,  "he's not a hero to
>>southerners."

>  Yes, and George Washington was probably not a hero to George III. I just had
[deletions]
>  Kokie Roberts with her historical relativism (to the extent that it is
>historical at all) belongs exactly where she is: on a television talk show.
>
I subscribed to this list to get tidbits of information that may be
obvious to Europeans but gets lost in the shuffle here in the US. It
looks like this is a similar situation. The population of the southern
US (or rather, many people in these states) feel anger at having lost
what we call The Civil War. Confederate States of America flags are
very common, as are slogans such as "the South will rise again."

This reinforces my opinion that groups should not be put in a position
where they feel that they are forced to be a member of a country against
their will.

I also wish to note that the Catalonians (of Spain) are using the
Olympics to point out that they are not Spanish and are part of Spain
due to being conquered. The 1990s present a very rare opportunity
for many ethnic groups to become independent from foreign domination.
I feel that these steps will eventually lead to a reduction of animosity
during the course of the 21st century, setting the goundwork for more
healthy relations._Pete Tamas
Pete Tamas, Gnome@TempleVM.bitnet, Temple Univ., Philadelphia, eastern USA
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Date:         Thu, 23 Jul 1992 10:05:31 EDT
From:         Henry Kucera <HENRY@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: SDL are not communists?

 Well, thanks, I am finally getting it all sorted out: SDL and Mr. Weiss are
not Communists, there are no neo-fascists in the Slovak parliament, only true
democrats, the man who asked asylum in Switzerland (because he removed Meciar's
StB documents at Meciar's orders) made it all up, Stefanik's air crash was "a
very suspicious event" (Oliver Stone is making a movie about it) and Orwell is
 alive and well in Banska Bystrica.

  Thanksfully yours, Henry Kucera

 P.S. What bothers me still a little is that Mr. Dusan Slobodnik, Mr.Meciar's
 Slovak Minister of Culture, joined the Hlinka Guard in 1944, went to an elite
 German SS-camp for training and was allegedly part of a nasty SS operation in
Moravia. Mr. Slobodnik admits being in the SS camp but says that he was there
involuntarily (that makes him the only involuntary SS-man known). But they
surely have an explanation for that also somewhere in the brave new world.
(Sorry, I am mixing writers and metaphors).
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Date:         Wed, 22 Jul 1992 09:53:30 EDT
From:         Henry Kucera <HENRY@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Havel

>Posted on 22 Jul 1992 at 09:26:05 by BrownVM Mailer (103837)
>
>Dear Roman Martonak,
>
>Do you think that Mr. Sladek is better than Mr. Havel ?
>Did not he (Sladek) get some support from Slovak members of parliament ?
>
>Adolf Ceska
>Victoria, B.C.
>Canada

 Just one footnote to this interesting question: In the second attempt to elect
 a federal president, the only candidate was Mr. Sladek. His extreme rightest
party has 14 seats in the parliament (snemovna lidu). Yet, Mr. Sladek got
60 (sixty) votes, not enough to elect him but a suprising number. While the
elections were by secret ballot, you can bet that the extra votes did not come
from Mr. Klaus (who was NEVER a Communist or a fascist) and his party. It is
not hard to guess where they came from.

  And one more matter re former Communists who change their color: Havel was
never a Communist nor were his main advisors when he was President, i.e.
Schwarzenberg and Tigrid. As a matter of fact, both of them did a great deal
abroad to help Communism fall in Czechoslovakia. And they are highly competent
people. So, let's be fair.

Sincerely, HK
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.slovak-l
Date:         Thu, 23 Jul 1992 16:08:00 EST
From:         EUGENE KELLY <PHIEZK@HOFSTRA.BITNET>
Subject:      skvorecky

I would like to call the attention of my friends on Slovak-L to
the article by Josef Skvorecky in yesterday's _New York Times_.
He argues that since the heroes of the Velvet Revolution and the
former members of Charter 77 allowed themselves to be splintered
politically, "little men," the old hands of the former dictator-
ship, and others with a collaborationist past, were allowed to
regain the ascendancy.  They are becoming more brash and unapolo-
getic about their role in the Communist past, and are forming a
common cause with radicals of the right viz., the "republican"
party.  (Skvorecky disagrees with my insistence, in a discussion
here some weeks ago, that we must distinguish Fascists from
Communists; he says that they are as "two peas in a pod."  It may
make no difference if one is killed by a hurricane or an earth-
quake, but there _is_ a difference between them.)  For that they
have Havel to thank, for it was he, after all, that helped
prevent the Velvet Revolution from ending with the bodies of
former Communists "hanging from lampposts."

In Skvorecky's view, Slovakia has become an economic, political
and moral burden to the Czech lands, and so he bids "good rid-
dance" to it.  Citing a story that a Slovak woman who dared to
give Havel a bunch of flowers was "almost lynched by a mob" in
the Slovak capital, and a report of the nomination of a man said
to have been both a member of the K.G.B. and the Hlinka Guards as
Minister of Culture, Skvorecky sees a dark night descending over
Slovakia.

And I suppose it is.  It is somewhat ironic that ex-communists
would lead Slovaks back into this morass; I would have expected
that the rightists of the World Congress, waiting patiently in
the wings for communism to collapse, would have been in the
vanguard of a new dictatorship.  When I was last in Slovakia, all
that my in-laws could talk of was how high prices had become, and
how uncertain their jobs now were.  One might have hoped that
they would have taken courage from men like Havel and the Charter
77 people, and realized that freedom was worth the price of
insecurity.  But I suspect that many of them decided to run for
protection back to their old taskmasters.
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Date:         Thu, 23 Jul 1992 07:49:00 +0100
From:         KUBASKA@CSBBYS51.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Havel

In this situation Czech part have to make a new proposal.( It is unwritten
law, That when federal parliament is headed by slovak, president is czech
and vice versa.
I think, that nobody will pass thru president election untill czech and
slovak presidents will not be elected.

Marian Kubaska
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Date:         Tue, 28 Jul 1992 08:55:00 +0100
From:         KUBASKA@CSBBYS51.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Skvorecky article

I didn't found Mr. Skvorecky article to be anti-slovak.
I guess, that the point of discussion is to discuss things unclear and
the ones of different oppinion. Some of them follow:
1. 'Velvet revolution' is that word appropriate ? It seems to me too
odd to name ordinary cue by revolution. It seems to me unmoral to name
political ambitions of some people by velvet.
2. If one accept the term revolution, he should accept it as student
revolution, because only students have the power to force ordinary
working men (their parents) to stand up .
3. Mr.Slobodnik would step down (former president of Austria was
lieutenant in Wehrmacht and couldn't enter USA, but austrians respected
him) in the case he was involved in some unmoral actions.
4. If we aply american criterion to our politicians, nor Mr. Havel
would be ellected. But I agree, that there is no place in our policy
for high communist exponents (Mr.Calfa ,former federal prime minister
Mr.Dubcek, former head of federal parliament, both prefered by Mr.Havel,
by the way).


Marian Kubaska
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Date:         Thu, 30 Jul 1992 07:55:00 +0100
From:         KUBASKA@CSBBYS51.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Veritas vincit!

Mr.Kucera,
Couple of days ago, you asked me if I know what Veritas it.
Your last contribution is revealing what it is.
Your students WERE RIGHT when they tried to convince Mr.Benes not to
allow to form communist goverment. They were right, because communism
is criminal regime.
Your students WERE NOT RIGHT when they trie to convince Mr.Benes not to
allow to form communist goverment. Because communist were ellected in
free ellection by majority of czechs.

Everybody has his own VERITAS.
(You can see similar situation in Algeria today)

That is because I prefer discussion about concrete events.
And,by the way, Orwell is alive and well not only in B.B.

Respectfuly
    Marian Kubaska
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Date:         Tue, 28 Jul 1992 07:54:00 +0100
From:         KUBASKA@CSBBYS51.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Forwarded mail for LISTS.SLOVAK-L

Yes, "Prague" allways knows apropriate person to choose. Unfortunately or
fortunatly these times passed.
   Marian Kubaska
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Date:         Thu, 23 Jul 1992 07:39:00 +0100
From:         KUBASKA@CSBBYS51.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Havel

H.K wrote that M.R.Stefanik had great hope for Czechoslovak future.
THis is not true, because Stefanik had great hope for Czecho-Slovak future.
( The term Czechoslovak is connected with wrong idea of so called
"Czechoslovakizm" presented by T.G.Masaryk and E.Benes. After unexpected
death of Stefanik ( very suspicious event,by the way) this idea won and
you can see situation today.)
Another point is whether Stefanik's love and respect to Masarik were paid
back and what way.

Marian Kubaska
P.S.  Excuse me the "i" in Masaryk's name. It is not a lack of respect.
      It is just that I can't go back and correct it.
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Date:         Thu, 30 Jul 1992 16:08:54 MDT
From:         Pavel Vachek <TKPV@CSEARN.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Did the Chartists risk anything?
              29 Jul 1992 08:29:00 +0100 from <KUBASKA@CSBBYS51>

On Wed, 29 Jul 1992 08:29:00 +0100 Mr. Marian KUBASKA@CSBBYS51 said:
> (...) Did the West have the interest to defeat communist
>threath? If the answer is Yes than Would the West do anything for it?
>There are two possible answers. NO-the west will do nothing just wait
>the communism to be defeated by its own misleading policy and economy.
>                                Yes-in that case What will be the next
>steps like? To support some kinds of opposition ? The broadcasting RFE
>was donated. Were CS disidents as well?
>When I faced the facts that some of disidents gave 50.000 -200.000 KCS
>to humanity organisations, I came to conclusion Yes.
>Understand me, I don't criticise the fact that charta77 was donated,
>I criticise blind faith and making new untouchables.

I do not claim to know any special inside information - but all the same...

As far as I know, the Charter 77 (and other) activists were supported
financially both from the people in Czechoslovakia and abroad.

One example of such support from "domestic sources" has been described
in the "Cesky snar" by Mr. Ludvik Vaculik. There must have been many
others but I suppose that the donors prefer to remain anonymous.

A part of the money from abroad came in an official way in the form
of copyright fees to the literary authors and dramatists. (Because
of a secret decree, the conversion rate from foreign currency to the
Czechoslovak Crowns for each persona non grata was set extremely low.
For details please see the "Kde je zakopan pes" by Mr. Pavel Kohout.)

The other part of the support from abroad used to come from (semi-)
official sources, e.g. from Professor Janouch's Charter 77 Foundation
in Sweden and other charitable or Church organisations. Of course,
there may have been other sources about which we may never learn.

Please do not underestimate the power of ordinary human solidarity
with brave people who were unjustly arrested or persecuted. Fortunately,
this solidarity is still quite common to people who manage to overcome
the fear of possible consequences.

Best regards,
    Pavel Vachek, Prague, Czechoslovakia.
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