HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
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X-VMS-Cc: RICHINSP
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.psycgrad
Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 09:04:00 PST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         "Philip Richins, Continuing Education, CWU,
              (509) 963-1504" <RICHINSP@CWU.BITNET>
Subject:      The other half of Jennifer's ??

In her original posting, Jennifer asked abut what was thought about
"quickie" Ph. D. programs.  The institution see was citing in this case was
Walden, if I remember correctly, and if memory serves Walden is not accredited.
I know one man who has his Ph. D from Walden and was licenced in Minnesota.
His area of expertise was (again) chemical dependency.  He cannot get licenced
in Washington state because Washington requires a doctorate from an accredited
institution, an exam (written and oral) and one year of supervised post-doctoral
experience.  I have great misgivings about his abilities.
The APA had responded to this type of situation by lobbying to get states to
only recognize APA accredited schools in their licensing requirements.  There is
as move to counter the APA, which is being spearheaded but schools which offer
alternative formats such as at-a-distance.  These schools are accredited by
their regional accrediting associations, but not by the APA.

Since I am in one such program I have a HUGE bias in this area.  I see
1.  The APA is being self-serving.
2.  licensing MUST be based on competency criteria
3.  the psychological community must "police" itself, or someone else will.

I had hoped that some one would have raised the question of our responsibility
in this specific case, which Jennifer has presented.  I sense a uniform belief
on the part of this list at least that there is a question regarding the ethics
of granting a Ph.D. much less a license to the woman described.  Should not the
Colorado "board of licensing" (or whatever it is called) be informed of this?
Or are we to be AMA-like and ignore the malpractice of others hoping our own
will be ignored?  If we do not speak up and this woman harms someone, are we
not in some part at fault if we are mute it this matter?  I am not "just asking"
in order to spark a debate, I am challenging us at the level of our ethics.  Are
we who we say we are?

Philip
RICHINSP@CWU.BITNET

Working at Central Washington University
Studying at SAYBROOK INSTITUTE
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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 22:44:00 EST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         "David M. Fresco" <FRESCO@UNC.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Kihlstrom - eeg

Matthew,
My one and only contact with Kihlstrom was about 18 months ago when
my then advisor was getting expert info from him for the Dissociative
Disorders chapter of the abnormal text Bootzin, Accocella and Alloy
I also read a very fine chapter from Kihlstrom for a graduate level
abnormal text edited by   ???  That's about as specific as I got with
Kihlstrom however.
David Fresco
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Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 16:51:54 -0800
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Tor Neilands <tbn@UTXVM.CC.UTEXAS.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Common-Sense Knowledge In Ps

>Tor,
>
>It is NOT you, because yes, this particular debate IS winding down. Matthew
>and I have been battling for the last week or so, and it seems we are exactly
>where we begun. Both of us have failed to convince the other to accept our
>positions. (stubborn, aren't we?) However, I must say: it's been FUN, and I
>hope we get more participation from others on the list, on other
>equally-'controversial' (or 'weighty') issues such as he and I (and Eric, and
>Tor, and others) have been discussing.
>Just a few more days till Christmas break! :)
>
>Now, if I could just finish this TAKE-HOME final! >:(
>
>
>Best to all,
>
>Todd D. Nelson
>Michigan State University

Todd: Best on your vacation! It has been a strain at times, but it has also
been fun engaging in all of the "debating"--and I try to remind myself that
I'm incredibly lucky (I think we all are) to be in a position to be able to
do this kind of debating rather than living hand-to-mouth at a subsistence
level.

take it easy, and good luck on your final...

Tor


Tor Neilands
Systems Analyst
Statistical Services Group
Computation Center
University of Texas at Austin
Austin, TX  78712

Phone: (512)-471-3241, Ext. 263

Internet:  TBN@Utxvm.cc.utexas.edu
___________________________________________________

"To thy own self be true".             --- Walt Whitman

"No matter what you call it, it's all just a game".
                                                   --- Master Wong
                                 "Once upon a time in china"

"Two roads diverged in a yellow wood and I, I took
 the road less traveled by, and that has made all the
 difference".                                 --- Robert Frost
___________________________________________________

Disclaimer:  All of the views expressed above are solely
those of the author. Any relationship between my own
views and those of the University of Texas and/or The
Computation Center at the University of Texas are
due merely to regression to the mean.
____________________________________________________
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Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 16:08:00 EDT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         KMORGAN@WHEATNMA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: authorship

Monika,

        I say "Once burned, twice shy."  That's about all I
could say, in a similar circumstance--that I would never be
duped like that again.
        You have my sympathies--and yes, I still get mad about
my "experience," too!
        --Kathy Morgan
        kmorgan@wheatnma.bitnet
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.psycgrad
Date:         Fri, 11 Dec 1992 15:01:49 -0500
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         MICHELLE HALL <GR4522@SIUCVMB.BITNET>
Subject:      let's hear some opinions

I have to agree with Tor on this subject, I do not think it is reasonable
for us to "do it all".  I did not collect the actual data for my thesis,
it was not possible for me to.  I did a telephone survey, and had to
collect about 75 subjects worth of data every night, there was no way I
could have done this myself, so I hired six undergraduates to do the
surveying.  But, I still worked hard on it, I developed the survey (with
help from my advisor), I trained the interviewers, I did the random
selection of subjects, I was there to supervise every night, etc., etc.
The point is that even though I did not collect the actual data, I still
feel the thesis was every bit mine and nobody elses.  I often help
friends out with their statistical analyses, some people need help
writing the actual program, some have questions about the appropriateness
of their proposed analyses, some are not sure what all the junk on their
printouts actually mean.  I know stats better than most of them, so I do
not think it is inappropriate to help out.  And yes, I think part of our
education is actually knowing where to go for information when we are
out of our league.  But, we still need to take stats courses, etc., so
that we know what questions we need to ask and what things we do not know.
Anyways, I just thought I'd throw in my two cents for what it's worth, and
now back to work.

Michelle Hall
GR4522@SIUCVMB
Southern Illinois University
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.psycgrad
Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 16:33:26 EST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Matthew Simpson <054340@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
Subject:      Kihlstrom - eeg

David, what is Kihlstrom up to now?  Is this the same Kihlstrom, John F.?
I'm currently examining his chapter in "Unconscious Reconsidered."

John, we are currently doing eeg entrainment in our lab for purposes of
behavioral medicine.  We collect the data on a HAL-4 (fft-card).  I've
been calibrating a new program we've written for the HAL-4 for the past
several months.  Whew!  Validity at the microvolt level is a @#$%^ when
one is on a low budget!  Glad to hear from you.

Have fun!  :-)

O======================================================================O
 | _  l  _  * Matthew Simpson          * BITNET:                      |
 |  \_l_/   * School of Psychology     * 054340@uottawa.bitnet        |
 |    l     * 145 Jean Jacques Lussier * INTERNET:                    |
 |    l     * Ottawa, Ontario K1N 8P5  * 054340@acadvm1.uottawa.ca    |
O======================================================================O
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Date:         Sat, 12 Dec 1992 09:29:26 -0400
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         HESSJX <HESSJX@GOODALL.UNCG.EDU>
Subject:      RE: What's the Beef? ( Common Sense etc.)

I have to agree with Kathy, there are faculty members in my dept. who
don't think psychology is a science and don't think it needs to be.
I am thankful that they are in the minority.  Nonetheless, the
attitude does exist.  At the same time, we are well accepted as
members of the scientific community outside our dept.  I get special
invitations to events in biology, chemistry, and physics.  I am in
neuroscience, however, and I am not sure that students in other areas
of psychology are included in inter-departmental mailings.  Perhaps I
am unique.  (I am trying out a new networking system on my computer
so could someone please let me know if this message goes to the list
or just to Kathy?  Thanks in advance.
Jennifer Hess
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.psycgrad
Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 16:58:10 EST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Matthew Simpson <054340@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: What's the beef

On Thu, 17 Dec 1992 13:43:00 EDT <KMORGAN@WHEATNMA> said:
>Sorry, Sybil,
>        but when Congress is rescinding peer-reviewed research
>awards in psychology because those proposals don't sound
>"scientific" enough, then there is A LOT to beef about!
>        --Kathy Morgan

I have never read of a case where congress is rescinding peer-reviewed
research awards *because* those proposals don't sound scientific
enough.  Is that the reason why they have been rescinding peer-
reviewed research awards?  I thought is was because of a decision to
cut back on funding, because those proposals did not seem important
enough, or because they did not see the benefit of doing such research.

PLEASE NOTE: My statements above neither agree nor disagree with the
rescinding.  I am making statements re: becaused-ness.

O======================================================================O
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 |  \_l_/   * School of Psychology     * 054340@uottawa.bitnet        |
 |    l     * 145 Jean Jacques Lussier * INTERNET:                    |
 |    l     * Ottawa, Ontario K1N 8P5  * 054340@acadvm1.uottawa.ca    |
O======================================================================O
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Via:        UK.AC.ST-AND; 14 DEC 92 17:18:18 GMT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.psycgrad
Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 17:18:38 GMT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Paul Leonard Gardner <plg@ST-ANDREWS.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: authorship

Could one of you kind people do me a big favour please?  I am trying to find
the address/FAX No. for Cadwell Labs. Inc. in Kennewick, Wa. and it isn't
in my phonebook (strangely enough).  Anyone out there got a local book and
 couldsend the info.

Thanks in advance

Paul
St. Andrews
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Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 16:20:00 EDT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         KMORGAN@WHEATNMA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: What's the Beef? ( Common Sense etc.)

On 14 December Matthew Simpson writes:

>I'm sorry Kathy, I'm having a hard time believing you.  Could
>you provide a detailed example of the data from which you
>arive at this conclusion?  So far, I cannot picture the
>occation where people in departmental meetings or campus-wide
>faculty meetings would say, "Psychology is not a real science."

>Could you please give us an example?

Sheesh, I can't believe this.....but okay.  How about this?  In
my department, students can take any one of five different
intro psych courses:  Psychology as a Natural Science,
Psychology as a Natural Science, Zen and Western Psychology,
Maddness and Melancholia, and Intro to Experimental Psychology.
Either one of these "meets" the intro requirement for the
major. Two of them are distinctly "unempirical."  When I first
came here, I once mentioned to the chair that I felt
uncomfortable teaching "Psychology as a Natural Science," and
in fact, felt uncomfortable about "Psychology as a Social
Science,"too, since to me all of psychology was a science, and
the implication was otherwise in all of these course titles.
He looked at me aghast and said, "Well, there are some in this
department who would seriously disagree with you."
        I'll work on the rest of the data.
        --Kathy Morgan
        kmorgan@wheatnma.bitnet

PS--Is it just me, or does everyone get their personal
experiences challenged on this net?
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.psycgrad
Date:         Sun, 13 Dec 1992 22:47:43 EST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         PSYMICK@VM.UOGUELPH.CA

set psygrd-d nomail
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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 09:09:51 -0700
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Matthew Prull <PRULLM@CGSVAX.CLAREMONT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: History & Systems

David Fresco, Kathy M., and others:

This "academic geneology" thing sounds pretty interesting and fun, and
I'd like to do it myself.  I'm especially surprised that David (i
think it was David) could trace his lineage all the way back to Wundt.
Although I know my advisor's advisor (Len Horowitz @ Stanford), how do
you track lineage back from there?  Reading dissertations or author
notes is all I can think of that would give me a clue.  Any other ways
to go about this?


_____________________________________________________________________
            Matthew Prull - The Claremont Graduate School
                Internet: prullm@cgsvax.claremont.edu
                       Bitnet: prullm@clargrad
From: 054340@UOTTAWA.BITNET (Matthew Simpson)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.psycgrad
Subject: RE: Common-Sense Knowledge In Ps
Date: 15 Dec 92 17:05:24 GMT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
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              14 Dec 1992 23:00:40 -0400 from <HESSJX@GOODALL.UNCG.EDU>

On Mon, 14 Dec 1992 23:00:40 -0400 HESSJX said:
>Matthew,
>I have to agree that if psychologists want to be scientists we have
>to learn to act like scientists.  I also agree with other opinions on
>this list that express concern that much of the problem with
>psychology as a science is internal.  You asked for examples, well,
>here is one concrete example of why I don't think psychologists do a
>good job of promoting themselves as scientists.  The University has
>had a recent campaign to evaluate and improve the sciences.  The
>psychology department has been included as well as Chem, Bio.,
>Physics, Food & Nutr., and Sports Science, however, as a part of this
>campaign, there was a symposia on improving science education along
>with a couple of colloquia on the same topic.  I, and one faculty
>member (Out of a department of at least 25 faculty and close to 100
>grad. students!)  were the only ones to attend.  The psychology dept.
>is the largest and most well funded dept. on campus, yet there was
>little concern about the future of Science education.  I think this
>is a classic example of how psychologists exclude themselves from the
>scientific community.  Incidentally, all the other departments were
>better represented even though they are much smaller.  One could
>argue that the psych. dept. was just too busy doing science to spend
>time talking about it.  I tend to believe however that attendance was
>low because people felt the topic to be too far removed from the
>field.  Perhaps I should do a survey.  (If I weren't so busy
>collecting thesis data, maybe.)

Thank you for the example, Jennifer.  I agree that psychologists can
at times be irritatingly apathetic.  Then later down the road, they
cry out that things are not fair, when in fact, they missed the boat.
I take this example as supporting the idea that we need to increase
the amount of vigilance our fields have in the scientific community.
That is, we need to know what is going on out there and contribute in
the decision making.  It (the example) doesn't seem to demonstrate the
public's naivete re: psychology as a science.  Do you agree?

O======================================================================O
 | _  l  _  * Matthew Simpson          * BITNET:                      |
 |  \_l_/   * School of Psychology     * 054340@uottawa.bitnet        |
 |    l     * 145 Jean Jacques Lussier * INTERNET:                    |
 |    l     * Ottawa, Ontario K1N 8P5  * 054340@acadvm1.uottawa.ca    |
O======================================================================O
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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 15:17:07 -0700
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         "JOHN P. KLINE" <KLINE@ARIZVMS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Kihlstrom - eeg

John Kihlstrom is alive and well and living in Tucson AZ. Yes, John F. Kihlstrom
   .
Matt,
We have three labs here:  One in the department of psychology, one at the
Canyon Ranch, and one in a converted house in the medical school area.
Two of the labs are equipped with Lexicor Neurosearch 24 multi lead EEG
systems, and one of them is a big bogus box o'amps from Hell (16 channels)
on which Rhythm runs... although I have yet to witness this phenomenon.

Yikes!  What have I gotten myself into?  I keep getting mail spooled to me
as I type!!!!  I think that this network is a conspiracy to make sure that
some of us spend all of our time doing this, and never publish!
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.psycgrad
Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 23:00:40 -0400
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         HESSJX <HESSJX@GOODALL.UNCG.EDU>
Subject:      RE: Common-Sense Knowledge In Ps

Matthew,

I have to agree that if psychologists want to be scientists we have
to learn to act like scientists.  I also agree with other opinions on
this list that express concern that much of the problem with
psychology as a science is internal.  You asked for examples, well,
here is one concrete example of why I don't think psychologists do a
good job of promoting themselves as scientists.  The University has
had a recent campaign to evaluate and improve the sciences.  The
psychology department has been included as well as Chem, Bio.,
Physics, Food & Nutr., and Sports Science, however, as a part of this
campaign, there was a symposia on improving science education along
with a couple of colloquia on the same topic.  I, and one faculty
member (Out of a department of at least 25 faculty and close to 100
grad. students!)  were the only ones to attend.  The psychology dept.
is the largest and most well funded dept. on campus, yet there was
little concern about the future of Science education.  I think this
is a classic example of how psychologists exclude themselves from the
scientific community.  Incidentally, all the other departments were
better represented even though they are much smaller.  One could
argue that the psych. dept. was just too busy doing science to spend
time talking about it.  I tend to believe however that attendance was
low because people felt the topic to be too far removed from the
field.  Perhaps I should do a survey.  (If I weren't so busy
collecting thesis data, maybe.)

Jennifer
UNC-Greensboro
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Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 12:07:00 EDT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         KMORGAN@WHEATNMA.BITNET
Subject: Re: History & Systems

Matthew P.,
        I agree with David (re: How to track one's academic
lineage).  It usually DOES take some leg and/or library work.
In my case, though, I was able to buy my grad advisor a beer or
two, and get him to tell me stories....
        --Kathy Morgan
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.psycgrad
Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 10:01:31 EST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         "RONALD L. SKIDMORE" <RLSKID01@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Personal experience challenge

In reply to representation of psychology in congress...
This year marks, I believe, that a practicing psychologist has been elected to
congress.....Ted Strickland  from South-central OHIO  ( my turf )
He received his PhD in counseling from the University of Kentucky  (where I
am currently a doctoral student in Ed. Psyc.

Perhaps we may now have an advocate.
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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 17:23:27 EST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Sunni <bjreilman@UCCS.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Common-Sense Knowledge In Ps

Well, I hope you are have a great holiday break. I too am going to sign off
until after our classes start again. (around 18 Jan) I plan to read, read,
read, do a little networking, read, work on my thesis, read, do some data
analysis, read, work, and read.
        Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night!
Sunni Reilman
University of Colorado at Colorado Springs
(also of Roswell, New Mexico)
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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 13:43:00 EDT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         KMORGAN@WHEATNMA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: What's the beef

Sorry, Sybil,
        but when Congress is rescinding peer-reviewed research
awards in psychology because those proposals don't sound
"scientific" enough, then there is A LOT to beef about!
        --Kathy Morgan
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Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 22:38:30 EST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         jlbugg@UCCS.EDU
Subject:      RE: how to get old files

To ASU:  I swear I didn't start the conversation, but thanks for the
citation.... Jen
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