From: diessel@informatik.unibw-muenchen.de (Thomas Diessel)
Subject: Re: ICE high speed train
Organization: Leibniz-Rechenzentrum, Muenchen (Germany)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 16:43:14 GMT

BRANDT_JOBST/HP1900_01@HPLOMG.HPL.HP.COM writes:

>ICE travel-- a nice ride but a technical disappointment.
>I just spent some time riding around Germany on the DB (Deutsche
>Bundesbahn) and DR (Deutsche Reichsbahn) the west and east German
>railroads that are still separate but under one directorship.  I don't
>know what that means but it seems to be a book keeping definition.
I think that it is a legal and of course an employement question.
>...
>The ICE was a revelation because it had all the problems that I
>anticipated and more.  The stability from car to car was worse than I
>had thought with substantial jostling even on the smooth new high
>speed right of way.  On the IC lines it was a real bounce but then the
>lateral accelerations were rude as well.  It defies walking on the
>line between Frankfurt and Fulda as they run at max speed of ~200
>km/h.  On the high speed lines 250 is achieved now and then but for
>some reason it only lasts long enough to clock it before the brakes
>are applied.
That is not usual for the ICE. The maximum speed of 250 km/h is retained
for the most time.
>...
>Each car has fixed seats facing fore and aft and some face to face so
>that leg room becomes an intimate affair with the opponent.  The IC
>and EC cars have locked but reversible seat pairs so that all seats
>face forward on each run (of course there are a number of dead end
>stations that make all seats back\wards too [as in Stgt. or Fkft]).
Only in the 1st class cars.
>There are employee compartments that take up 1/4 of a car and roomy
>toilets so that many cars seat about 24 passengers in second class,
>fewer in first class, never more than three seats across.
This should refer to the ICE again. But the figures are 66 seats for 2nd class
and 48 for the 1st class. You forgot to mention the audio system that is
built into all seats and the video system in two cars.
>There are two telephones on each train that can only be used with
>prepaid electronic phone cards.  These are available in 12 and 50 DM
>with a surcharge of 3 DM if you don't buy them at the post office
>before boarding.  In fact they are scraping for funds everywhere with
>surcharges.  Their diners are about 2x the price of equally good ones
>on EC/IC trains.  Making a phone call requires waiting in line where
No! Diners are at approx. the same price as on IC/EC trains. All restaurants
are operated by the same company (DSG).
>there is no place to wait in the aisle.  On the  line it is
>rough and tumble literally as they try to keep to their schedule on a
>relatively curvy section of smooth track.
That is true.
>The whole thing seems to come to reality when you read that the French
>German, Belgian and Luxembourg high speed train Paris-Brussels-Berlin
>will be a TGV.  Oh yes, the booking system is such that seats can be
The four railways just ordered 37 TGV for that line to be delivered in
1996/97. But that is only caused by the technical requirements of the 
French SNCF, mainly the width of the cars (ICE is wider and therefore
more spacious), the weight of the engines (SNCF allows only 17t/axle) and
the compatiblity with the existing TGVs.
>reserved but no one knows which until searching for seats that cannot
>be identified whether they are aisle or window.  It soon becomes clear
>why SNCF sells their seats the way airlines do.  All seats are booked
>and the computer knows at all times which seats are occupied.
The fact is that you DON'T have to book a set on an ICE. But the reservation
systems should work likely. Maybe you became confused by designating the seats
using symbols instead of characters (like in aircrafts).
>The French who run somewhat faster use only one pantograph to make
>sure that the contact beam encounters only undisturbed contact wire,
>the second power unit is fed by a rooftop conductor that connects the
>two power units.  ICE spent much time reinventing the high speed
>pantograph because they use one at each end of the train and had
>difficulty maintaining an arc free rear pantograph.
But the Spanish AVE (actually a TGV) now uses German pantographs.
>It is interesting to read what engineering problems were solved on the
>TGV.  These details have been and are discussed in RGI but it seems
>RGI doesn't get read at DB labs where they design ICE trains from
>first principles.  It is amazing to think that a German ICE has twice
>as many wheels as a TGV and twice as many vestibules and are built of
>steel.  It reminds me of back to the future.  I don't understand how
>this massive redundant R&D effort can escape the auditor's scrutiny
>and the engineering fraternity's criticism.
The great difference is that ICE cars are longer than TGV cars. Therefore
they are heavier but the train needs LESS vestibules for the same length.
One ICE has 13-15 cars compared to one TGV unit with 8 or 10 cars. So
TGVs run often as two units.
Have you ever heard about competition and licenses? Why are there still
GM, Ford and Chrysler in the USA?
>It seems to me that DB/DR would do good to start buying TGV's with
>interiors to their own specifications immediately and stop the
>blundering ICE development that must converge on a train like the TGV.
NO!!! The ICE has a lot of advantages over the TGV which is one generation
behind.  The newest important fact after one year experiences with the ICE
is that it requires 10% less maintenance than the TGV.
>Even our container double stack trains are articulated single truck
>inseparable strings.  How can one ignore the need for this design in a
>unit train regardless whether freight or passenger?
Articulated trains have some disadvantages especially if one car has to be
replaced for repair. Telling about the wide vestibules of the ICE you
contradicted your own question.
>It's a nice ride if cost be damned but I think they could get a lot
>more for their money.  This seems especially true when you see that
>the IC/EC trains run at 200 km/h at a better average speed with
>"ordinary" passenger cars with substantially greater capacity.  The
>ICE makes better time primarily because it has far fewer stops.
Compared to the IC/EC system before introduction of the ICE the ICE has NOT
fewer stops but the same. You shouldn't mix up the introduction of new lines
with the introduction of the ICE at the same time.
How can you tell about a new train after one trip on only a small part of the
line? Did you ever travel with the TGV? (I didn't)

Thomas Diessel
--
Thomas Diessel
Federal Armed Forces University, Munich  -  Computer Science Department
Werner-Heisenberg-Weg 39  -  W-8014 Neubiberg
Germany
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