HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: chrisi@lloyd.Camex.COM (Chris Ischay)
Subject: Re: Furtwaengler on Toscanini
Organization: Camex Inc., Boston MA
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 10:13:04 EST

In article <1992Dec29.044256.14188@timessqr.gc.cuny.edu>
kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu writes:

>The following is a very rough translation (made by a colleague)
>of a letter in which Furtwaengler criticizes Toscanini.  I would
>suggest that the comments be taken with a grain of salt.  It must
>be remembered that this was written while Toscanini was on tour
>with the La Scala orchestra -- not an orchestra that regularly
>did symphonic music.  

I bet they sounded pretty good nonetheless.  They were received
enthusiastically.  I wonder how the recordings sound today.  Aren't these
part of the RCA rereleases?

>And although Toscanini had already done
>quite a lot of symphonic music by 1924, it was not yet part of
>his staple repertoire (as it would become a few years later when
>he became directly of the New York Philharmonic).  Still further,
>the lack of any real positive comment makes me think that
>Furtwaengler might have been quite a bit jealous -- the comment
>about inaccuracy is one that for which Furtwaengler was often
>criticized, and rarely was it leveled again Toscanini (who
>excelled in orchestral accuracy).  

I don't have any references here at work, but my recollection is that
Furtwangler had reason to be jealous of or inimical toward Toscanini.  And
he was not the only conductor.  Competition was not unknown back then, and
I think Toscanini horned out a few Big Names in his time.

[from Furtwangler's letter:]

>That he truly has an effect on the public, is
>disputed by my wife, who is more sensitive, and I have to agree
>with her.  The suggestion, the press campaign do their part;
>besides, especially in Switzerland, we hear good orchestras too
>seldom to be able to make a comparison at all.

This sounds like the kind of criticism levelled at Pavarotti -- he's too
popular, so something's fishy.

>Moreover, I became aware that the Mediterraneans don't have any
>symphonies, never owned or wrote any.

Racial slur.  Low blow, Wilhelm!

>  Bizet Arlesienne Suite and
>the like are yet the best of the kind (Berlioz belongs to the
>German history of music in so far as he is symphonist in
>earnest).

If it's good, it must be German, even if it's not.

>The fame of Toscanini seems to be based partly on his memory, and
>his uncompromising ruler personality, and partly on his roots in
>facist Italy.  Nothing derives from the artist in him, for he is,
>at least as long as he conducts symphonies, boring and mediocre.
>In Italian operas that may be different.  

I find irony in the fact that Toscanini was equally celebrated for his
conducting of Wagner, who I think was German.

I can understand how Toscanini's style might in truth not match well with
Furtwangler's ideas, but for the most part I find the comments in the
letter Bob's quoted to be more tacky than incisive.

Chris Ischay
chrisi@camex.com
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker)
Subject: Re: Beginning a classical collection
Organization: Camosun College, Victoria B.C, Canada
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 20:07:05 GMT

gustavo@dent.uchicago.edu (Gustavo Comezana) writes:
: In article <MARCA.92Dec29035642@wintermute.ncsa.uiuc.edu> marca@ncsa.uiuc.edu (Marc Andreessen) writes:
[....]
: 2) With all due respect, I feel that generalizations like Marc's are
: quite worthless as purchasing guidelines. Each and every one of these
: conductors has turned out wonderful work, as well as some pretty
: dreadful records. So let me single out a few areas of the repertoire
: which IMHO are well-served by some of the conductors in the above
: list, and certain things I think they are not so great at:
: 
: Giulini: Excellent Verdi, Bruckner, Mahler. His Beethoven and Schubert
:          are not to my taste.

Just to demonstrate that it's a question of chacun a son gout, I very
much like Giulini's Eroica and Schubert 9.

: Dutoit: Very good in the French repertoire. Not so great elsewhere;
:         I must be the only person on Earth who does not care for
:         recording of "The Planets".

No, there are at least two of us.
[....]
: Tennstedt: No quibbles here. Whatever he does, he does very well, but
:            I have a hard time thinking of anything that I've heard from
:            him (recorded of live) that was not Beethoven, Bruckner, R.
:            Strauss or Mahler.

I think his Strauss and Mahler are over-rated myself.

: Rattle: A little overrated by the English press, not as awful as some
:         American press would have you believe. Very good Sibelius
:         (great no. 7, but Maazel is better); very bad Janacek (his
:         recording of the Glagolitic Mass is incredibly boring).

Well I think the US press opften suffers from the NIH (not invented
here) syndrome. I think I prefer Rattle's Sibelius 7 to Maazel's, and
his Mahler 10 is outstanding.

: Of course, your list also omits some outstanding names whose output is
: of very high quality overall: Carlos Kleiber, Charles Mackerras,
: Wolfgang Sawallisch, Istvan Kertesz, Eugen Jochum, Gunther Wand,
: Giuseppe Sinopoli, Jean Martinon, Kirill Kondrashin, Herbert
: Blomstedt, Riccardo Muti, Leonard Slatkin, Andre Previn, Gerard
: Schwarz, Otto Klemperer, Rudolf Kempe, Frans Bruggen, Sigiswald
: Kuijken, Gustav Leonhardt, Reinhard Goebel, etc. Each has his
: strengths and weaknesses, and I'm sure other netters will want to
: comment on likes and dislikes from this list, as well as add a few
: names to it.

Indeed: Furtwaengler, Toscanin, Erich Kleiber, Bruno Walter, Jascha
Horenstein, Carl Schuricht, Yevgeni Mravinski to name just a few.
--
Real:  Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept., Camosun College, Victoria B.C.
Email: (dbarker@spang.camosun.bc.ca)
Phone: +1 604 370 4452
From: b-grant@nwu.edu (Barry Grant)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: FYI: Lovely Music....
Date: 28 Dec 92 18:55:48 GMT
Followup-To: rec.music.classical
Organization: Northwestern University


 (Edgar Erwin) wrote:
> Can I coax someone into posting a review of this opera [Improvement]? Opinions, or  
> JustTheFacts would be appreciated.

Since buying Perfect Lives on the recommendation of Fanfare, I've tried to
buy everything on CD of Ashley. Nothing so far is as wonderful as Perfect
Lives. I've listened to it 5-6 times all the way through, even bought the
libretto, and I can still barely figure out what's going on. I don't mind
that much: I like the piece because it shows how strange the world is. So
why should I be able to "figure it out"? Instead I discover things in it
and enjoy the rhythms of its words. I've listened to Improvement  a couple
of times. It's not as wonderful as Perfect Lives. It's "stiffer" and the
music is not as hypnotic. It seems weighted down with intended meanings,
where PL seems more spontaneous, more playful. I don't like Thomas
Bruckner's singing either. But I'll say for him that  now whenever someone
says "Wait a minute please" I hear them sing it like he does. 

Barry Grant
Northwestern Univesity
Evanston, Illinois
b-grant@nwu.edu
From: basinski@biosci.arizona.edu (Mark Basinski)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Most drawn-out ending (Was: Best endings)
Date: 21 Dec 92 22:29:26 GMT
Followup-To: rec.music.classical
Organization: Univ. of Arizona

In article <1992Dec19.230054.4363@cronkite.ocis.temple.edu>,
zorro@picasso.ocis.temple.edu (John Grabowski) wrote:
> 
> 
> I'm gonna get flamed for this, but...
> 
> Beethoven's 5th Symphony.
> 
> Sounds like it's going to wrap up about five different times in the finale.
> 
			You are a barbarian, no question. But you're also wrong, because it is
 the last movement of the 8th symphony that is the most ridiculous, and
surely intentionally repetitious and bombastic Beethoven ending. This is
self-parody at it's musical funniest. Really, listen to that movement
with that in mind and you'll die laughing, because Beethoven is making
a huge joke - the "wrong note" (C#) that keeps popping up, the incredible
imbalance of a coda longer than the exposition, development and recap
combined, and then the interminable thrashing on the tonic at the end...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Basinski      Internet: basinski@biosci.arizona.edu
From: inr@deimos.caltech.edu (I. Neill Reid)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: re: Bruckner
Date: 27 Dec 1992 17:33 PST
Organization: California Institute of Technology
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: deimos.caltech.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

 Add one more positive vote for Bruckner - not that he's the sort
of composer I'd listen to every day. You have to be in the right
mood to appreciate the gradual (so,metimes ponderous) development.
 Mind you, can't really think of any composers whose music I could
be said to hate - some can be tedious, possibly their fault,
possibly mine.
  One exception -  musicals, which are perpetrated, not written

 Neill Reid - inr@eccles.caltech.edu 
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu (Bob Kosovsky)
Subject: Re: NEED HELP: Converting catches to 2 voices
Reply-To: kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu
Organization: Computer Center, CUNY Graduate School, New York NY 10036
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 03:48:58 GMT

In article <1992Dec18.180125.11894@newsgate.sps.mot.com>, altizer@figaro (Robert Altizer) writes:
>My madrigal quartet has gotten several jobs ...
>Now we find that two of the singers can't make some of the dates and we're
>left with two voices, soprano and bass, to cover the gigs!
>
>Can anyone offer advice on converting catches written for three or four
>voices to two, or suggest alternate sources of material?....

Oh wow, I've always had a weakness for canons (or catches, as you call 'em).
I used to gather 4 friends and we would sing 5 part canons in the bathroom
of the 92nd Street Y (where we dormed during college days).

Though not stupendous, one of the most useful books is Fritz Joede's
"Der Kanon" published by Moeseler Verlag.  The earliest thing is 'Sumer is
a cumin in" (in German translation) and continues on to the present (a 
couple of mediocre German composers).  On the way are some beatiful works.
The book has canons for 2, 3, 4, 5, and more voices
I find the pre-Baroque canons (Dufay, Josquin, Gumpelzhaimer, et. al.) to be
the most beautiful.  But there are good helpings of Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven,
Schubert.  There's a work by Salieri called "Kanonen?" makes a pun out
of the musical form and the weapon.

In general I find that one can't reduce multi-voice canons to 2-part.  It's
better to use those originally composed for just two parts.

For the final session before vacation, I had one of my classes sing
Mozart's 2 part canon "Selig, selig alle" K. 230.  Very nice.  

Hope your concert is successful.

Bob Kosovsky
Graduate Center -- Ph.D. Program in Music(student)/ City University of New York
New York Public Library -- Music Division
bitnet:   kos@cunyvms1.bitnet        internet: kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu
Disclaimer:  My opinions do not necessarily represent those of my institutions.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: brad@buck.viewlogic.com (Bradford Kellogg)
Subject: Re: Berg
Originator: brad@buck
Organization: Viewlogic Systems, Inc.
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 17:07:40 GMT


In article <1992Dec23.061618.13164@Princeton.EDU>, roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:
|> In article <1992Dec22.173348.9371@viewlogic.com> brad@buck.viewlogic.com (Bradford Kellogg) writes:

|> >Of course, the music is not exactly melodic in the old fashioned sense,
|> >with Berg following the 12 tone model. 
|> 
|> Say what?   Are you *sure* you've been listening to Wozzeck?  Much of 
|> the music *is* melodious (expressly intended that way) and there are 
|> no tone-rows in the piece, which is not surprising, given that Berg
|> composed it before Schoenberg had shared any of his 12-tone ideas with
|> anyone.
|> 
Okay, okay, I guess I need to be more careful. Yesterday I was called on
the carpet for identifying it as "12 tone", which it is not as Schoenberg
would have written it, but which it is in a looser sense, isn't it? Have
you seen the score? Is there a key signature anywhere in it? If there is, 
I stand corrected. 

Now, "not exactly melodic in the old fashioned sense" would appear to be 
open to question. How about the converse: "it is exactly melodic in the old 
fashioned sense". Well, I wouldn't say that. People don't wander down the 
corrider whistling melodies from Wozzeck. Okay, most of them don't. Yes, it 
is melodious, very melodious, beautifully so. And yes, Berg is much easier 
to listen to than Schoenberg, who often seemed more interested in theory 
than in music. But we're not talking Magic Flute here. This is atonal. The 
only point I was making is that Wozzeck is MODERN, and it sounds modern 
today. Some people would find it inaccessible.

- BK
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: lungtt@gus.ecn.purdue.edu (Terence T. Lung)
Subject: Re: Beginning a classical collection
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 00:57:46 GMT

In article <Bzzu6w.KG2.1@cs.cmu.edu> acid+@cs.cmu.edu (Christopher Colby) writes:
>In article <1992Dec28.091408.16539@leland.Stanford.EDU> paulxxxx@leland.Stanford.EDU (paulastya gupta) writes:

I'll skip most points as I think Colby's pointers are fine.

>>4) Should one look for particular condutors/orchestras performing that
>>piece?  This really complicates CD selection!
>
>Yes, CD selection is very complicated...
>
>* Borrow or buy the _Penguin Guide to Budget Compact Discs_....
The Steven's Guide is also quite nice.  Often, you can find this
right at the counter of a good classical music outlet like Tower Records.
It's usually somewhat tattered and chained to the wall because lots 
of people flip through
it when they're trying to decide between any choice of recordings.
It's kind of like Consumer Reports.  If you're not sure what you're
doing, avoid the filled-in black circles.

Terence
From: knotts@hpl-opus.hpl.hp.com (Tom Knotts)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 20:46:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Lost Masterpieces was Re: Dresden was Re: One-work-composers
Organization: HP Labs, High Speed Electronics Dept., Palo Alto, CA
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical

> 
> >Does anyone have a sense of what might be out there, lying around in
> >someone's attic, or buried in the Vatican archives?
> 
>   What I miss most, are the lost Bach cantatas, about 100 of them,
>   and one or two passions and there might be something else lost, too.
> 

And there's the funeral music for double chorus, lost since Forkel's
time. I also heard that most of Teleman's music was destroyed. I never
heard whether these were the only sources or merely the autographs of
works already in print.

I'm quite an organ buff. I can only imagine how many fine organs were
destroyed throughout Germany and Europe. Does anyone have a list?

Tom

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: owen@lloyd.Camex.COM (Owen Hartnett)
Subject: Re: Beginning a classical collection
Organization: Camex Inc., Boston MA
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 09:13:50 EST

This is by no means a definitive rule, and I'm sure that many could
point out perfect disasters should one follow this literally, but I'll
plunge on:

Often, what works very well in classical music, is when you have
contrasts in performers.  I'm thinking more of things like concerti, but
it could be applied to symphonic works as well.  

For example, if you have a conductor who's known as following the score
very precisely with a soloist known for taking liberties with the score,
it often comes off very well.  I'm thinking of Fritz Reiner and Horowitz
as an example.  Leonard Bernstein is widely associated with the romantic
era repertoire which let him punch the air when he conducted, but I've
heard some Mozart concertos by him which were unparalleled. Others may
think of similar pairings.

Of course, there has to be some common ground or else the thing falls
flat.

-Owen

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: jordi@marsun1.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (JORDI Stephane)
Subject: Re: Shostakovich symphony recommendations
Reply-To: jordi@scsun.unige.ch
Organization: University of Geneva	
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 08:44:40 GMT

In article <1992Dec19.202445.18333@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, jefrank@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Jason E Frank) writes:
|> 	I'm just beginning to explore Shostakovich's symphonic output.
|> To date, I own symphonies #7 (Mata/Dallas) and #6 & #9 (Jansons/Oslo),
|> and I'd like to know your thoughts on the following:
|> 	1.  What are the "best" recordings of his 11th and 13th?
|> 	2.  Which other of his symphonies would be most worth exploring
|> (as a possible guideline, I like the 7th much more than the 6th and 9th)?
|>     Thanks in advance for your suggestions.
|> --jason
|> 

You certainly must get the 5th, as a standard Shostakovich symphony.

You also can get the 5th, 10th and 12th versions of Mravinsky, available from
Erato. They are live recording (1987), and the quality is sometimes bad, but
Mrawinsky in himself is worth. And The St Petersburg Philharmonic Orchestra
is simply great. They all are discount prices.

Personnaly, my favourite ones are the 4th and the 11th. I also recommend you
to buy the James DePriest version of the 11th (Delos), and the Neeme Jarvi 
version of the 4th (CHANDOS).

You simple will be delighted in your exploration of the Shostakovich's world.
Keep going !!!

Sincerely,

Steve Jordi                

+-------------------------+----------------------------------------------+
| Dpt of Geophysics       | Fax: + 41 22 320-5732                        |
| University of Geneva    | E-mail: Internet:   jordi@scsun.unige.ch     |
| 13, Rue des Maraichers  |                     jordi@sc2a.unige.ch      |
| 1211 GENEVA 4           |           Bitnet:   jordi@cgeuge52.bitnet    |
| Switzerland             |       Compuserve:   70143,3056               |
+-------------------------+----------------------------------------------+
From: nadegda@mplik.e-burg.su ()
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Choir of Boys and Youths
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 92 17:17:37 +0300
Distribution: world
Organization: URAL RELCOM LIMITED
Reply-To: nadegda@mplik.e-burg.su


		The Ekaterinburg Municipal Choir of Boys and Youths
	  at the Urals Conservatoir appeals to managers and business
	  people both in this country and adroad to whom the ideas of
	  philanthropy and patronage of art are not alien .
	    The Choir is renewing and developing the Russian singing
	  traditions and its repertoir includes works of both home and
	  foreign classical and modern musical culture .
	    The Choir has won a high appraisal of its skill among the
	  professional musicians inspite of the fact that side by side
	  with the youths singing in the Choir there are quite young
	  boys aged only 8 or 9 . In the past year alone the Choir be-
	  came laureate of four significant music festivals.
	    Of late the Choir has established friendly relations with
	  the Chicago Municipal Children's Choir which is planning to
	  receive the boys from the Urals at home in Chicago and ar-
	  range joint concerts. Unfortunately,growing fares preclude
	  the opportunity to introduce the young Ekaterinburg singers
	  to the USA .
	    The Choir will appreciate any help and will be very much
	  obliged to the people realizing the necessity of strengthen-
	  ing international cultural ties as well as maintaining and
	  developing the wonderful Russian singing traditions .
-- 

	      Nadegda N. Garckusha
	      URAL RELCOM Ltd., phone 578-721,e-mail: nadegda@mplik.e-burg.su



Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu (Bob Kosovsky)
Subject: Re: Maria Callas video suggestions...?
Reply-To: kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu
Organization: Computer Center, CUNY Graduate School, New York NY 10036
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 20:37:46 GMT

In article <1992Dec18.205219.17962@news.columbia.edu>, 
carl@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Carl Hansen) solicits info concerning Callas
videos.

I'm sure people will suggest the two recitals from Hamburg, and the 1958
Paris Gala (which I don't think is nearly as bad as a previous poster had
indicated - that Casta Diva is really prime material, whatever its
drawbacks).

But of course, most of us will think of the famous film of Act II from
Tosca in the Zeffirelli Covent Garden production (1964) -- which isn't available
commercially.

Thank goodness for those underground sources.  You can purchase that
Covent Garden act from this source:

		LIVE OPERA
		Box 3141
		Steinway Station
		Long Island City, NY 11103

They also have a catalog with mouth-watering video- and audiotapes.
Send for a catalog just to salivate!

Bob Kosovsky
Graduate Center -- Ph.D. Program in Music(student)/ City University of New York
New York Public Library -- Music Division
bitnet:   kos@cunyvms1.bitnet        internet: kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu
Disclaimer:  My opinions do not necessarily represent those of my institutions.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: jfl@panix.com (Jeff Lipton)
Subject: Re: Opinions sought: Beethoven's Late String Quartets
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 15:41:48 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix & Internet, NYC

In article <1992Dec25.214704.26108@cronkite.ocis.temple.edu> zorro@picasso.ocis.temple.edu (John Grabowski) writes:
>Steve Monroe (v035550@stortek.com) wrote:
>: I am  interested  in opinions on
>: recordings of Beethoven's "late"
>: string quartets.
>
>: Favourites? recordings to avoid,
>: etc. 

	I'll second the recommendation of Bernstein's rendition of op.
131. I've also enjoyed the Yale Quartet readings of the late quartets-
formerly available on Vanguard LPs in good 1960s stereo sound - very intense,
lean readings. The Vegh quartet is also among my favorites- the complete
stereo cycle on the Astree label; I have op. 130 (Bb) in an old Haydn
Society (mono) pressing - from which I learned the piece.

 - Jeff

-- 
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jeffrey F. Lipton, M.D. (jfl@panix.com) |   (212)-982-1219 (home)          |
| 353 E. 17th, #19-E  NY, NY 10003        | "Disobedience was Man's First    |
+------------------------------------------------ Virtue" (Oscar Wilde) -----+
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: sampson@nosc.mil (Charles H. Sampson)
Subject: Re: Shostakovich symphony recommendations
Organization: Computer Sciences Corporation
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 15:40:22 GMT

In article <1992Dec19.202445.18333@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, jefrank@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Jason E Frank) writes:
> 	I'm just beginning to explore Shostakovich's symphonic output.
> To date, I own symphonies #7 (Mata/Dallas) and #6 & #9 (Jansons/Oslo),
> and I'd like to know your thoughts on the following:
> 	1.  What are the "best" recordings of his 11th and 13th?
> 	2.  Which other of his symphonies would be most worth exploring
> (as a possible guideline, I like the 7th much more than the 6th and 9th)?
>     Thanks in advance for your suggestions.
> --jason

     Although you asked for recommendations, I'll give you a warning.
Until you become a Shostakovich fanatic, avoid #2 and #3.  They have
moments, but they're both marred by some of the most dismal choral
music ever written.  The music itself is only pedestrian, but it was
written while Shostakovich was attempting to follow Stalin's dictates
and the texts are awful, politically correct (Soviet-style), claptrap.

				Charlie