From: stevew@cs.man.ac.uk (Steve Wallis)
Newsgroups: uk.politics,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Why wait 5 years?
Date: 16 Apr 92 11:59:45 GMT
	<1992Apr15.082231.15597@rdg.dec.com>
Followup-To: uk.politics,soc.culture.british
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Manchester

In article <1992Apr15.082231.15597@rdg.dec.com> potter@movies.enet.dec.com (Alan T Potter) writes:
>In article <STEVEW.92Apr13120006@mushroom.cs.man.ac.uk>, stevew@cs.man.ac.uk (Steve Wallis) writes...
>>Obviously, an effective strategy has to be worked out (I don't know what form
>>of civil disobedience is being proposed), but I will make the point that the
>>Scottish working class 

>I've asked before, Steve, and I'll ask again.  Please define `working class' in
>simple, straightforward terms that I can use to work out whether I qualify.

I've answered before, and I'll repeat my answer:

Working class people usually have to work for somebody else (unless they are
on the dole, etc).  They do relatively low-paid jobs, often with little
chance of promotion.  They have a relatively small amount of savings, if any
(or they are in debt).

The ruling class have enough money so that they do not need to work; they can
employ other people to work for them.  They may do a very well paid
managerial job, as well as receiving a share of the profits.  They are the
bosses who have ultimate control over the companies they own.

The middle class consists of all people in between the working class and
ruling class.  It includes owners of small businesses, middle management and
well-paid professionals.

I won't attempt to specify precise boundaries between the classes, since they
are vague.  Some jobs which used to be regarded as middle class would now
usually be regarded as working class (such as nursing and teaching).  It is
partly a question of attitudes - the working class is more likely to go on
strike.

>>has the power to force the Tories to give in, if they
>>decide to use it.  If nobody (or perhaps only the 25% who voted Tory) works,
>>then the country would be brought to a standstill.
>
>Oh, brilliant.  No hospitals, no public services, no electricity.

I'm sure emergency cover would be provided in the hospitals (like when the
ambulance workers went on strike).

>Yes, I'm
>sure the country would be brought to a standstill if enough people were stupid
>enough to strike for it.

If people were determined enough to achieve home rule.  Obviously a general
strike isn't on the cards in the near future, but it may be after the
Scotland United campaign has grown in strength via demonstrations and civil
disobedience.  Such forms of protest are much more positive than terrorism or
rioting.  A general strike wouldn't need to last very long to force the
Tories to give in.

>And you'd be comfortable enough in Manchester.  Pity
>you don't give a shit for the people of Scotland who would suffer.  Did I
>mention the word hypocrisy?

I'd be only too pleased if there was a general strike in Manchester!  Indeed,
I'd support solidarity action in Manchester in support of the Scottish
people.  I support the right of all nations to self determination, whether I
live in them or not.  This is a principle, not hypocrisy.

>>If (or when) the struggle takes off in Scotland, it could spread to England
>>and Wales.  The Tories also have little support in Wales, and they don't even
>>have majority support in England.  With Labour almost certain to adopt
>>proportional representation, many people will come to the conclusion that the
>>Tories don't have a mandate here either.  
>
>Erm - what?  I don't think I'm up to the intellectual pressure of this
>statement.

It's quite simple.  The Tories have less than 50% support in England.  If
Labour and the Liberal Democrats support PR, then they implicitly believe
that the Tories shouldn't be in power.

>>So why wait until 1997 to ditch the
>>Tories when they shouldn't be in power now?
>
>Because that's the difference between democracy and anarchy.

Is it democratic that the Tories are in power in Scotland with 25% support,
or in Wales with 30% support?

>>In the industrial field too, workers will rapidly come into conflict with the
>>Tories and the bosses.  
>
>That was tried in the 1970s.  Remember?  When Labour was chucked out of power
>by the British people.

That was Labour's fault for attacking the working class.  Any government that
does so risks conflict with workers.

>>Workers will learn from their experiences - we didn't have to wait for a
>>Labour government to force the Tories to ditch the poll tax.  It seems likely
>>that non-payment figures for the council tax will be similarly high.  There
>>are turbulent times ahead!  Forward to a socialist society...
>
>Ah - is that what a socialist society is?

No, but this is action I would support, in order to ditch the Tories, and
ultimately in order to achieve a socialist society.

>Just what do you stand for?

Well, I'm in the Militant Tendency, and these are our main policies:

*	Maintain poll tax non-payment, for a total amnesty.

*	Kick out the Tories.  Labour to power on a socialist programme.
	(This still holds after the election.)

*	A job for all with a maximum 35 hour week without loss of pay.

*	A #190 per week minimum wage for all, including pensioners, the sick
	and disabled.

*	Reversal of all Tory cuts and a massive programme of public spending
	on housing, education and health.

*	A guaranteed job or educational place with a living grant for all
	young people.

*	Fight racism, unite black and white workers.  Labour movement action
	against racist attacks.  End police harassment.  Repeal the racist
	immigration laws.

*	End sex discrimination, for equal pay and equal opportunities.  Free,
	comprehensive child care with benefits covering the real cost of
	child-rearing.  Safe, free contraception.  Defend abortion rights.

*	Fight discrimination against lesbians and gay men.

*	Labour MPs and trade union officials to receive no more than the
	average wage of a skilled worker.  All union officials to face
	regular re-election.

*	Nationalisation of the 200 largest companies, including banks and
	insurance companies, under democratic workers' control and
	management, with compensation only for any shareholder in genuine
	need.

*	A democratic, socialist planned economy to end the chaos of the
	profit system.

*	No return to capitalism in the former Stalinist states.  Establish
	workers' democracy and genuine socialism.

*	A socialist world where hunger, poverty, the threat of environmental
	destruction and world war can finally be abolished.

Steve.

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