From: mghayalo@uceng.UC.EDU (Manoj Ghayalod)
Subject: Re: Contradictions in Quaran
Organization: College of Engineering, University of Cincinnati
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 20:33:05 GMT

In article <1992Aug16.213903.2310@cs.yale.edu> ahmed-shakil@CS.YALE.EDU (Shakil Waiz Ahmed) writes:
>
>In article <1992Aug16.155459.13340@uceng.UC.EDU>, mghayalo@uceng.UC.EDU (Manoj Ghayalod) writes:
>> In article <1992Aug15.231733.21837@cs.yale.edu> ahmed-shakil@CS.YALE.EDU (Shakil Waiz Ahmed) writes:
>
>> >No it is not, at least not according to the dictionary definition of sexism.
>> >
>> But you digress. Please anwser my question. If the same conditions 
>> apply to a woman will you insist that she have only one husband. Ok
>> you won't be called a sexist, but it will sure make people think
>> that you think that men should have all the fun. 
>
>Fun????  But have I not shown you that the polygyny issue has nothing
>to do with fun?  It is a purely humanitarian issue allowed under
>exceptional circumstances.  Certainly not for fun.  The allegation was
>that it is a sexist law, and I have shown using the dictionary that it
>is not.
>
Please anwser the question. Do you think under expectional circumstances,
like the men can women have more than one husband. If not do you think this
is discrimination against women? I will consider it discrimination as
you are not allowing women to participate in this humanitarion issue.
>> >The leader chosen by God???  Not that I know of!  Religious leaders
>> >may indeed misuse religion to exploit people.  Don't politicians and
>> >people in power do that all the time?  Again what different societies
>> >may or may not do is not relevant -- Islam does not require veils.
>> >
>> Atleast politicians are chosen by people. Zia who made Pakistan
>> an true Islamic state wasn't chosen by the people. Did Khomeni
>> take part in elections, and what about the King of Saudi. And what
>> they do is relevant as they do it in the name of Islam.
>
>Look, there are dictators and monarchs in many places in the world.
>The King of Nepal only recently gave up a little of his power.  What
>religion is he?  What religion did Hitler subscribe to?  Marcos?
>Pinochet?  Honecker?  The list is endless!  Leaders in many places
>will misuse their power, and no, they are not always chosen by the
>people.  Like everything else, leaders can misuse religion too.  But
>the religion itself, at least in the case of Islam, is well-defined by
>its scriptures, and Islam does not require veils for women.
>
So you are saying that these are not Islamic leaders and they are just
misusing religion to stay in power. So my statement holds that religion
should not interfere with the state as even if the religion can do no
wrong the ones who implement it exploit the people. 
>> >> That's really funny. Islamic countries care about their minorities.
>> >
>> >Perhaps the fact that you're laughing says something about your
>> >attitude towards Islam, and hence gives away how you may feel about
>> >Muslim minorities in certain places, for example?  Since Islam
>> >prescribes tolerance of other faiths, it is only logical that Islamic
>> >countries care about minorities.
>> >
>> The best way to get out of a debate is to accuse a person of disliking 
>> Islam. 
>
>Well, I have hinted that you may display certain biases and
>prejudices, but I'm certainly not out of the debate...
>a
What biases have I shown? Show me one Islamic state which cares about non
muslims. 
>> You said that Bangladesh is not an Islamic state. So why bring it in
>> the discussion. Pakistan, Iran, Saudi and Afghanistan have that in their
>> constitution. They are tolerant about the minorities so they apply
>> all the laws of Islam and also some not in(like viels) but do not
>> apply Islamic punishment is that not strange to you.
>
>Yes, that is strange.  I personally don't see an ideal implementation
>of an Islamic society anywhere, but I do believe it is possible.  I
>can point to isolated successes.  For example, the crime record in
>Saudi Arabia is very low as a result of Islamic law.  That aspect of
>it is well implemented.  Of course, their track record on other issues
>is atrocious, but the crime deal has worked very well.
>
How can you say that crime is low only due to this reason. Is it because
these methods of punishment come under the Koran.  As I pointed out that
their banks do not take interest(a condition in the Koran) then why isn't
this bank system the best in the world. Saudi is a small country with a
small and rich population, yes the average population of Saudi is richer
than that of Western countries, that is why the crime is low there. Also
(supposedly) Islamic countries find this practise barbaric and hence have       abolished it. In the same vien, Asians are low in crime here, with respect
to their percentage, does religion have anything to do with this, or are
Asians in general are more frightened of US jails. I think the reason for
this is that Asians are in general more educated and thus an average Asian
is atleast middle class here(he is higher than the poverty level).
>> >If a particular society decides to implement some law or other it is
>> >their business, and people will generally follow it.  If some
>> >countries require veils, that is their problem, but I maintain that it
>> >is not an Islamic requirement, because I know that it is not
>> >prescribed by the Qur'an.
>> >
>> So you agree that they misuse the Koran, as the Koran says that women
>> have a choice to wear viel or not. They do not leave any choice to
>> the women. As you are a true muslim you must be more disgusted by
>> them than non muslims are.
>
>Disgust is hard to measure.  But yes, I do not approve of those who
>enforce something in the name of Islam if it is not requried by Islam.
>
Ok atleast this is out of the way. Veil is not required in the Koran.
And muslims in general object it, I wonder why they do not do so forcefully.
As this is not a condition in Islam it cannot be defunct. I suppose the
Islamic countries that enforce this forcefully should be ashamed to call
themselves Islamic.
>-- Shakil
Manoj

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