HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: victor@jezebel.wustl.edu (Victor Wickerhauser)
Subject: Re: Bosnian Muslims Rsnian Muslim Govean Gn Government rejectrejects to negotiate
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis Mo.
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 13:43:57 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.054654.24094@cco.caltech.edu> simic@pollux.ccsf.caltech.edu (Petar Simic) writes:
>	According to the press reports (not on the first pages), the 
> London meeting between representatives of Croats, Serbs and Muslim 
> Government failed because Bosnian government persisted in rejecting any
> negotiation with the Serbian side. They call representatives of 1,4 milion
> Bosnian Serbs, "terrorists". It is not clear to me how to reconcile

I think it is fair to require a cease-fire and an end to ethnic cleansing as
preconditions for peace talks.  Everyone will be much more calm.

> peace on the Balkans. Their message warms the hopes of Muslim government of
> Bosnia that military intervention of the West on their behalf is just 
> arround the corner if they just persist in rejecting to talk to 
> representatives of Bosnian Serbs. It therefore contributes to prolongation 
> of the suffering of all the people of Bosnia and Hercegovina, yet, it seems
> that even after hypotethical military intervention of the West on the behalf
> of Muslim government, they would still have to talk to Bosnian Serbs if
> peacefull political settlement is to be ever achived in this part of 
> Yugoslavia. 

The Bosnian Government is secular and multicultural, not Muslim: it contains
ministers from all three of the major ethnic groups.  It is the Serbian
rebellion which is monocultural, and in an extreme way.

>	Such an action will be costly in terms of human and moral loss,
> and it does not seem likely to achive much beyond what can be achived on 
> the peace talks in which Bosnian Serbs would be pressured to size-down their
> territorial aspirations, but their rights to remain in Yugoslavia, as well 
> as the rights of Croats and Muslims, respectively, to do whatever they want
> with their fair-parts of Bosnia and Hercegovina, should not be denied. 

It seems that the main issue is whether to partition Bosnia or leave it
whole.  This statement assumes that partition is the only answer, with the
size of the pieces being the only remaining question.  Bosnia's elected
government understandably wishes to oppose that.

Incidentally, the right to secede issue applies to Yugoslavia, where it was
also opposed by force of arms.  I see Western support for intact Bosnia but
dismembered Yugoslavia as a statement that Serbia is a rather irresponsible
custodian of political power.

>	Just an opinion. Regards,
>
>	Petar Simic.


Regards,
Victor
----
Prof. M. Victor Wickerhauser (314)935-6771  <victor@jezebel.wustl.edu>
Dept. of Mathematics, Washington University, St. Louis, MO  63130  USA
From: victor@jezebel.wustl.edu (Victor Wickerhauser)
Subject: Panic on Serbian concentration camps
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis Mo.
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 00:55:32 GMT

From ClariNet, without permission:

	  -29-
	  Yugoslav peace talks in London are taking a break for two weeks.
  Discussions between warring ethnic leaders remain deadlocked though...
  with the Muslim Slav leader UNwilling to continue as long as fighting
  rages in Bosnia. Meanwhile, Yugoslavia's new Prime Minister, Milan
  Panic, has confirmed reports of Serbian concentration camps... calling
  them a ``disgrace.'' Panic met briefly with British Prime Minister John
  Major.  He says they came up with some proposals for a new federal
  constitution in Bosnia.

My comment:  If Panic can't find any stronger condemnation for his country's
concentration camps, what is he doing designing a constitution for his
country's neighbor?

Regards,
----
Prof. M. Victor Wickerhauser (314)935-6771  <victor@jezebel.wustl.edu>
Dept. of Mathematics, Washington University, St. Louis, MO  63130  USA

Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: jec@pilatus.zurich.ibm.com (Jean Cherbonnier)
Subject: Ljubljana
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 13:53:31 GMT
Reply-To: jec@pilatus.zurich.ibm.com (Jean Cherbonnier)
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

I would like to spend a few days in Ljubljana and visit the
city. Is it safe ? What are the main thing to visit ?

Thanks.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: susan_soric@upubs.uchicago.edu (Susan Soric)
Subject: Need travel advice for Zg/Split/Brac
Organization: Univ. of Chicago
Distribution: all
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 14:05:15 GMT

My 60+ year-old aunt and her young adult daughter,
neither of whom speaks Croatian, plan to visit
Split and Brac in October, and they may visit Zagreb.
I would like to know from someone in Croatia
or someone else with very current information,
what kinds of land and air routes are available
from Rome (their landing point) to any of these
Croatian destinations. I want them to plan carefully.

Some questions:  Which air routes are open and safe within
Croatia?
Can one fly from Rome directly to Split?
What kinds of train routes could one safely take from Rome or
Venice to Split or Zagreb?
Are there snipers currently active in Split/Brac/Zagreb?
What is the likelihood of a military attack on any one of
these cities between now and October?
Is it possible to find hotel space in Split and Zagreb? And 
what is the best way to do this?

I would very much appreciate receiving someone's computer
address in Croatia (especially around Split) so that I can
check with him or her closer to October.  Thanks very much. 
You may respond by e-mail if you wish. My address is: 
   susan_soric@upubs.uchicago.edu
From: susan_soric@upubs.uchicago.edu (Susan Soric)
Subject: Need UN address in Sarajevo
Organization: Univ. of Chicago
Distribution: all
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 21:22:14 GMT

Amazingly enough, even though I don't have a direct
connection to Sarajevo, I've heard a plea through a Chicago
resident,  from an isolated family stuck in a Sarajevo
neighborhood.  The family appears to be slowly
starving.  Their neighbors say they have seen neighbors receive
packages from the U.S. addressed directly to them, but
so far this family has received absolutely no assistance.
Does anyone know how to send such packages, or if it 
does go to the UN, to what address? Any clues or leads 
would be greatly appreciated. Sometimes it seems 
Sarajevo-U.S. telephone lines (or at least 'connections' )
 seem to be working better than internal lines over there,
sadly enough

thanks.
susan_soric@upubs.uchicago.edu
From: predrag@isy.liu.se (Predrag Pucar)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Sarajevo
Date: 22 Jul 92 11:23:32 GMT
Reply-To: predrag@isy.liu.se (Predrag Pucar)
Organization: Dept of EE, University of Linkoping

Seen on Swedish TEXT-TV this morning:

UN: FIRE ON THEIR OWN BLAMED ON THE ENEMY

The warring parties in Bosna-Hercegovina do not hesitate to
fire on their own troops solely for the reason to influence
the public opinion.

The statement above is given by Lewis McKenzie who is in charge 
of the UN-force which guards the airport in Sarajevo, he also
says - "my most bizarre experience so far".

- grenade-throwers are installed near hospitals, artillery near
  schools and weapons are transported in ambulances, he says.

- 40 000 men would be needed only to keep peace here in Sarajevo.


My comment:

Don't we from the former Yu have a reason to be proud. Our
fellow-countrymen have impressed the experienced UN-force
commander. But don't worry, since he didn't mention any
specific side no one on the net has to be worried, it has to 
be "the other side".

-- 
/Predrag      email: predrag@isy.liu.se
Organization: Doctoral student, Mathematics, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 17:05:08 -0400 
From: Nenad Antonic <na0i+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: CULTURE, FINALLY!

Marko Ledvij writes:

> I am a linguistic outsider, so that I base my definition on (for 
> me) the most important aspect of language - that language is used 
> for COMMUNICATION. In other words, if two persons can 
> COMMUNICATE (with no problems) with everybody speaking
>  her/his own language, the language is the same.

	I do not think that this is an usable definition.
Imagine two uneducated persons, one from Hrvatsko Zagorje,
and another from an island (say, a small island, like \v{S}karda,
in Zadar archipelago). Do you think that they can communicate
(using words)? I doubt -- I had an opportunity to listen to an old
couple at \v{S}karda -- it would have been  easier for me to understand
if they had spoken Italian. (They did not watch TV regularly :-)
	And these are, no doubt about that, two dialects of the same 
language (say, Croatian; or as it was officially called in Croatia before, 
since the end of last century: `Croatian or Serbian' -- NOT
Croato-serbian or Serbo-croatian as some posters argued -- at least not
in Croatia).

	On the other hand, I had several opportunities to speak Croatian
(I spoke as close as possible to THE standard), while the other person would
speak Slovak or Ukrainian.

>1) In which language did a Serb in Pakrac address a shop-attendant
> without knowing her/his nationality?

[...]

	In Croatia, Croats and Serbs had common standard language:
Croatian literary language (hrvatski knji\v{z}evni jezik), the standard
that was much closer to the dialects spoken by Serbs in Croatia than
to the dialects of such `indisputable Croats' like those in Hrvatsko Zagorje
or Dalmatian islands.

	And here we are: the so called `language problem' was only
in the domain of the standard(s) -- which one to choose in Croatia?
Croatian academic/political circles preferred the standard that would 
closely follow the one built in the late nineteenth century on the 
`Ilyrian' (Croatian national/panslavic movement from 1820-ties)
tradition, the one intended to be common for all South Slavs.
	Serbian circles (until recently, these excluded Serbs from
Croatia) preferred the one based on northern Serbian dialects, and accepted
as a standard in Belgrade. For the standard language in Croatia!

	This problem was present since 1918. Just to mention Nazor's
reaction on a daily paper printed on the island of Vis in 1944 -- using the 
Belgrade standard (he actually wrote: `jezik beogradske \v{c}ar\v{s}ije').

	Today, the question of standards has been resolved. There are at
least two different standards, and there may be two more (Sarajevo,
Podgorica), or the existing ones might be accepted.

	Certainly, the Serbo-croatian conflict is not a result of two
nations unable to understand each other because of the linguistic
reasons. The reasons were somewhere else.

		Nenad Antoni\'c
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: George Bogavac <K2GT@UNB.CA>
Subject: Re: Serbian language
Organization: University of New Brunswick
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 03:21:01 GMT

In article <1992Jul23.011523.21583@wuecl.wustl.edu> victor@jezebel.wustl.edu (Victor Wickerhauser) writes:
>
>I have noticed that Croatian writers sometimes use a few well-chosen words of
>Zagreb slang to poke fun at Zagreb-centrism among Croatia's political
>leaders.  I also noticed that German words abound in Zagreb slang.  "Schlep"
>for example finds its way into
>
>v                                        v
>sleper = flat-bed truck("hauler"), and doslepati = haul (e.g. "haul yourself")
>
                               v
We (in Sarajevo) use the verb "slepati" to describe the action of
attempting to "score" with a person of the opposite sex:
 v
"Slepao sam joj se cijelu noc, pa opet nista!"  :-) :-) :-) :-)

<sigh!> those were the days...
From: victor@jezebel.wustl.edu (Victor Wickerhauser)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Honor system
Date: 31 Jul 92 06:18:01 GMT
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis Mo.

What Yugoslavia (I mean Serbia+Montenegro) did which has most enraged the
West is to lie and act in bad faith.  It is just like violating the honor
system at Caltech; the worst that can happen is expulsion.  And so
Yugoslavia, having violated the honor system among sovereign nations, is
being expelled.

Whether there are stricter punishments, such as allied military action
against Serbia or its proxies in Bosnia, depends more on the whims of
politics.  Maybe it will happen, maybe not, but Serbia needs too much from
other countries to get by with merely having war crimes overlooked.  For
example, it needs cooperation if it is to prevent Bosnia and Croatia from
massively arming themselves and seeking revenge.  It needs cooperation
agreements if it is to send its scientists and students abroad.  It needs
credits if it is to buy and sell in the world's markets.

Croatia and Bosnia have these things because they have not attacked Serbia,
or any other sovereign nation.  Maybe this simple logic will eventually
penetrate the thick heads in Belgrade, before it is too late.

Regards,
Victor
----
Prof. M. Victor Wickerhauser (314)935-6771  <victor@jezebel.wustl.edu>
Dept. of Mathematics, Washington University, St. Louis, MO  63130  USA
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: pnmideast@igc.org
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Peacecamp in the SANDJAK region
Date: 20 Jul 92 05:37:00 GMT
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1475300285:000:2035
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!pnmideast    Jul 19 22:37:00 1992


From: <pnmideast>
Subject: Peacecamp in the SANDJAK region

/* Written 10:08 pm  Jul 19, 1992 by e.bachman@link-atu.comlink.apc.org in cdp:yugo.antiwar */
/* ---------- "Peacecamp in the SANDJAK region" ---------- */

                                              18.07.92

The Sandjak is a region in the corner of Serbia bordering on Monte
Negro and Bonsia-Herzegovina. It is a region populated by approximately
half Serbs and one-half Moslems. A delegation from peace groups in
Munich, Germany visited the peace movement there in March of this year.
They were informed of the situation there, were told that everyone is
armed, that no one wants to use the weapons, but that every one is prepared
to use them if "forced to".  At the same time they are afraid of the
fighting starting because they do not want to fight with friends and
neighbors that they have lived with during the past years and even
generations.

The DFG-VK in Munich (local section of the War Resisters International)
is organising this peace camp to again visit the Sandjak region. The purpose
of the visit is to:

-carry out actions together (for example; workshops, infostands)
-organise meetings and discussions with the peace groups there
-exchange ionformation about peace activities
-learn about the Sandjak region
-live a few days in wonderful, ecolocically rich area
-look at the possibility of a demilitarized zone
-support the people there.

Dates: 23. August - 6. September 1992

Application deadline: 12. August 1992

Contact: Hanna Buchhierl-Kreuzer
         Tel. ++ 49 89 7 91 80 51

This information has been entered by:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Peace Cottage Lippinghausen        email: Friedenskotten@Bionic.er.De   
(Friedenskotten Lippinghausen e.V.)
Eric Bachman                           email: E.Bachman@Bionic.Zer.De

Milchstr. 81-83, D-4901 Hiddenhausen, Germany
Tel.: + 49 5221-654 85
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
## CrossPoint v1.21 ##
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia

packer@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles Packer) writes:
>In the NY Times today (Thursday) there is a photo of a "central
>intersection" in Sarajevo, according to the caption. Whether
>this means the intersection is in the central part of the city
>that has supposedly been most damaged, I don't know. At any
>rate, in the background is a railroad tank car with dark spots
>on it, presumably bullet holes.
        ^^^^^^^^^^
>It's interesting that this same tank car, from about the same
>viewing angle, was in a photo in the Times of June 21. The
>pattern of about 30 spots on it is exactly the same, implying
>that no new "bullet holes" have been created in the intervening
>month. The bridge behind the car also has exactly the same chips
                                                            ^^^^^
>and spots in the earlier photo as it has in today's.
     ^^^^^
...
and later
...
> >Why don't you go to Sarajevo and check it out first hand
>
>I'm planning to do just that, around mid-September. Between now
>and then, I'll periodically post an offer to accept bets on the
>status of Sarajevo. Do you believe that it's LITERALLY TRUE that
>Sarajevo has been destroyed? If you're right, you could double
>your money.

Listen you Tourist of Hell, I have a suggestion for you when you get to
Sarajevo.  After your finished gloating and have taken some snapshots to 
share with yourself, go to the Bascarsija, look to the south, and 
wave "Yoo Hoo" to the Barbarian serbs in the hills--I think you'll get some 
answers to your questions right away.

And if your mission is really humanitarian in nature (which I doubt it is
because your posts are so full of ----), why don't you ask someone
what you can bring or what you can do to help a Sarajevan family?  
It would be a lot more constructive than your than your self-serving attitude!

Dirk H.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: predrag@isy.liu.se (Predrag Pucar)
Subject: Re: CULTURE, FINALLY!
Reply-To: predrag@isy.liu.se (Predrag Pucar)
Organization: Dept of EE, University of Linkoping
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 07:22:38 GMT

In article <ceQQ84y00Vog011McE@andrew.cmu.edu>, Nenad Antonic <na0i+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
> Marko Ledvij writes:
> 
> > I am a linguistic outsider, so that I base my definition on (for 
> > me) the most important aspect of language - that language is used 
> > for COMMUNICATION. In other words, if two persons can 
> > COMMUNICATE (with no problems) with everybody speaking
> >  her/his own language, the language is the same.
> 
> [...]
>
> >1) In which language did a Serb in Pakrac address a shop-attendant
> > without knowing her/his nationality?
> 
> [...]
> 
> 	In Croatia, Croats and Serbs had common standard language:
> Croatian literary language (hrvatski knji\v{z}evni jezik), the standard
> that was much closer to the dialects spoken by Serbs in Croatia than
> to the dialects of such `indisputable Croats' like those in Hrvatsko Zagorje
> or Dalmatian islands.

This I don't really understand. What dialects do Serbs speak in Croatia??
I didn't know Serbs in Croatia had their own dialect, maybe I should
record me talking and then listen to the tape to hear what my dialect
(which I was unaware of) is :-). Come on, do you really think that Serbs
in Croatia speak in a specific way, they of course speak with the dialect
of the region they are born in. So to clear things out, I'm sure the Serb
and the Croat in Pakrac speek the same dialect and language, at least in
Zadar they do. Language has with geography to do not with ethnic 
backgrounds (at least it had until now).

> 	And here we are: the so called `language problem' was only
> in the domain of the standard(s) -- which one to choose in Croatia?
> Croatian academic/political circles preferred the standard that would 
> closely follow the one built in the late nineteenth century on the 
> `Ilyrian' (Croatian national/panslavic movement from 1820-ties)
> tradition, the one intended to be common for all South Slavs.
> 	Serbian circles (until recently, these excluded Serbs from
> Croatia) preferred the one based on northern Serbian dialects, and accepted
> as a standard in Belgrade. For the standard language in Croatia!

I have never seen one document written in Zadar and Zagreb (where I have
mostly lived the short time I were in Croatia) in that Serbian standard.
I'm really not sure what you are talking about Nenad, could you clearify
a bit, please.


-- 
/Predrag      email: predrag@isy.liu.se
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: George Bogavac <K2GT@UNB.CA>
Subject: Language
Organization: University of New Brunswick
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 03:53:56 GMT

Ha! I just thought of another "quirk":

A restident of Serbia is called "Srbijanac" or "Srbijanka", but
the person in question is not necessarily of Serbian
*nationality* - that would be "Srbin" or "Srpkinja".

However, the only word that I know of that describes a resident
of Croatia is "Hrvat" or "Hrvatica". In my opinion that doesn't
do justice to Serbs and others who are not of Croatian
*nationality* and live in Croatia. Are there any ONE WORD
alternatives?

G.B.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: simic@pollux.ccsf.caltech.edu (Petar Simic)
Subject: Re: Sarajevo
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 03:58:23 GMT

	Predrag Pucar writes:

>>	Seen on Swedish TEXT-TV this morning:

" UN: FIRE ON THEIR OWN BLAMED ON THE ENEMY

The warring parties in Bosna-Hercegovina do not hesitate to
fire on their own troops solely for the reason to influence
the public opinion.

The statement above is given by Lewis McKenzie who is in charge 
of the UN-force which guards the airport in Sarajevo, he also
says - "my most bizarre experience so far".

- grenade-throwers are installed near hospitals, artillery near
  schools and weapons are transported in ambulances, he says.

- 40 000 men would be needed only to keep peace here in Sarajevo.
"

Don't we from the former Yu have a reason to be proud. Our
fellow-countrymen have impressed the experienced UN-force
commander. But don't worry, since he didn't mention any
specific side no one on the net has to be worried, it has to 
be "the other side".

<< 


	We don not have chance to read that much in the Western press
 about bombings of Serbian population by Muslim & Croats in Bosnia.  
 This means that the most likely explanation of the meaning of 
 statement by L. McKenzie is one (or both) of the following:

	(1) Muslims and Croats are responsible for some of the bombings 
 of civilians in Sarajevo; perhaps only for the most "TV - usable" (bizarre)
 ones - for example, bombing of the people in the bread-line, or the fine 
 timed bombing of the area arround the Government building precisely at the 
 time British Minister D. Hurd was in, talking to president of Bosnian 
 Government -  by which they tray to manipulate West into military action 
 to liberate Bosnia from Bosnian Serbs.

	Or, (2) Public-manipulation-usable bombings and shelling of Serbian
 population was really hapening, but, was not reported; was supressed in
 the main-stream Western press? Is this possible?

 	Whatever the case, it seems to me that one should be ready to think
 deeper before making conclusions about what is realy going on in Bosnia
 (Sarajevo), and who is to be blaimed for what; in the past, and in the 
 future. The fact is that Serbs do not gain anything, on the contrary may 
 loose much by bombing hospitals, schools or civilians. It would be crazy to
 assume that they do not know this. The other side, however, is in a bizarre
 imoral dilema.

	Regards,
	Petar.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: CP6uH@plains.NoDak.edu (CP6uH)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: USA - Croatia  103: 70
Date: 27 Jul 92 23:04:14 GMT
Organization: University of North Dakota at Grand Forks

In article <27JUL92.20895779.0048@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA> K2GT@UNB.CA (George Bogavac) writes:
>The US has won the basketball game against Croatia by
>103:70     ( not bad, all things considered :-)
>
>-- G.B.

Well I missed the game (I OVERSELPT ;((((((((((((((((((( )

but the interesting thing was that NBC comentator added the comment - 'when
you see the Croatian team consider it should have included Serbian LA Lakers
center Vlade Divac if Yugoslavia did not split due to civil war'.
[he probably forgot to mention Paspalj ;( ;( ;( ;( ].


Well fellow americans, I suppose you were lucky this time... Hopefully
Balkan politicians will get together before next olympics and form a joint
basketball team that can show Americans their place in basketball today ;)
;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

just another ignorant Serb who think his nation is the best in basketball...
--
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia