From: llama@tramp.cc.utexas.edu (sine nomine)
Newsgroups: alt.angst
Subject: Re: No meaning
Date: 7 Jan 93 20:04:23 GMT
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

Stephen (sbate@atl.ge.com) wrote:

: > it's a great approach until you turn it on its side and start saying
: > "it won't matter in 100o years, so why bother?"
: 
: That's an excellent question. Answering this question is a prerequisite
: for using the technique I described. What's your answer?

that since the argument can be used to justify doing or not-doing any
action, it's meaningless as a basis for decision-making. besides, i'm
not going to be around in 1000 years, so i don't really care what
impact my actions now will have in a millenium. i'm more concerned
with immediate consequences: how much shit will this cause in my life
at the moment? are the benefits worth the cost?

: How do you decide if *your* happiness or
: contentment is "real" or just imagined or simply conditioned response.

the whole concept that my feelings of happiness might not be "real"
makes me laugh, it does. if i'm happy, then i'm happy. if i'm
depressed, i'm depressed. if you're just imagining you're happy,
either you're going to fake it so well is becomes real, or you're
going to have an underlying sense of sadness. and conditioned
responses might make you act happy, but they won't produce that
feeling of pure joy that makes you think you're going to laugh or
scream or maybe just explode. or the quiet peaceful contentment that
makes you think you could spend the rest of your life feeling just as
you do now and die happy.

: Yes, we each choose our own form of escape. We are like innocent
: people in prison waiting for execution. The prison administrators
: given an ample supply of drugs and other paraphernalia to numb our
: consciousness so we don't cause trouble.  If we don't take these drugs
: voluntarily they are either forced on us or our execution is expedited
: in order to manage a difficult prisoner.  We are constantly told
: there is no parole or appeals, so we should just try to be happy with
: the situation as it is.  However, the few prisoners that partially
: awake from the stupor and realize their fate will naturally feel a
: great deal of angst. At this point, they have a choice (i.e. the angst
: is sign that they are conscious enough to have the *possibility* of
: "real" escape). They can either go back to "sleep" and dream they have
: escaped or they can start planning a "real" escape.

this has the same self-contradiction that your cattle analogy has:
you're presenting a situation from which there is no escape and then
advocating people to plan escape, as if bashing your head against a
brick wall is morally superior to leaning up against it for a nap.

but my problem with your argument goes further. your images of people
as being controlled by some ominous outside force runs counter to
everything i believe and everything i said in my post on control
freaks. the jailers are ourselves and the prison has no locks. angst
is what you feel when you understand this and start thinking about
walking out.

: I feel the same way. It's a difficult problem. First, we have to know
: what makes us happy. Second, we have to determine what changes need to
: take place to make us happy. Third, we have to implement the changes.

the ever-changing nature of all of those things, the way life shifts
and flows, are what i derive meaning from. figuring out how i've
changed and how i need to change. it's hard, but it gives me something
to do with my time, and sometimes arriving at a place i think i can see
from makes me very very happy.

: I completely agree with both you and Peck. A person won't be able to
: accept that life is a bitch, unless they first *know* it is.  Usually,
: the first indications of this knowledge are a feeling of angst. Avoid
: the angst, and there is no transcendence. There is no conscious action
: to do anything about it.  That's the point (at least the main point)
: I've been trying to make.

i can agree with this, with the reservations stated above.

: Thanks for the good discussion...

ditto.

--
sine | deb
"i have clairvoyant paranoia. i have precognitive dissonance. i have many
other ways of seeing at my disposal. i have a garbage disposal, dinner plans,
and dog biscuits. i have a strong sense that freedom lies within, where
i shall never find it." -- king missile
Newsgroups: alt.angst