HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 7 Nov 1992 05:14:10 GMT
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

In article <1992Nov7.002058.25457@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
>>Because to allow a properly run vote to be overturned because a few folks who
>>couldn't be bothered to participate in an open process don't like the result
>>would severely damage the only accepted means by which decisions are made on
>>Usenet. 
>Bull!
>Plain and simple. I'm sorry...but I've seen you and others club people over
>the head with this politic-ism over and over again. *REAL* human beings
>are flexible enough to understand the difference between the spirit
>of the law and the letter. 

Bull yourself.

A set of guidelines that can be tossed out whenever someone complains loudly
enough is worthless.

That's EXACTLY what you're demanding.

I, and others who have posted on this thread, will not stand for it. I DO NOT
CONSIDER THIS POINT NEGOTIABLE.

>There *was indeed* a procedural irregularity. THERE WAS NO CLEAR SUBJECT
>LINE. It was entirely unfair to hide a renaming inside of an unrelated
>reorg. You even agreed that it was, a few postings back, didn't you? 

I agreed to no such thing. I agreed that the name could have been clearer, but
I did not and do not agree that the vote was unfair. All someone had to do was
READ THE MESSAGES! Is that too much to ask?

>A "REVOTE" will not disenfranchise...it will allow everybody involved to vote
>again and new people (obviously) to join in the vote. Why are you so afraid
>of a revote? We are not saying that it will or will not pass...we just want
>to hear more of the net.consensus that you will apparently allow. 

If you weren't convinced that a revote would reverse the results, you wouldn't
be screaming for it. The folks in r.m.s, as well as any other interested
netter, had an opportunity to participate. Those who chose not to are stuck
with the result. That's how it is in the real world, your political theorizing
notwithstanding.
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by stupidity.
     We survived Jimmy Carter; we'll (probably) survive Bill Clinton.
From: dseal@armltd.co.uk (David Seal)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 10 Nov 92 10:19:22 GMT
Distribution: news
Organization: A.R.M. Ltd, Swaffham Bulbeck, Cambs, UK

In article <ZVTSBQ3T@cc.swarthmore.edu> jhildeb1@cc.swarthmore.edu (Jeff
Hildebrand) writes:

>	It often seems like the biggest problem with these reorgs has to do
>with renamings which pull groups into the hierarchy. Anyone want to work on
>a change to the guidelines which says that renamings and new group creations
>should be handled in seperate votes?

Yes, this would be an excellent idea. But like previous changes to Usenet
rules/guidelines, it shouldn't be applied retrospectively.

David Seal
dseal@armltd.co.uk

All opinions are mine only...
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Oregon State University, College of Oceanography
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 21:20:45 GMT

In article <1992Nov9.002546.6689@metrosoft.com> gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:
>In article <BxEyFw.8rr@news.orst.edu> stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John  
>Stanley) writes:
>> If I received a California ballot labelled Nevada, I would certainly
>> read it very carefully to see how it affected me and why it was sent to
>
>How about if you saw hundreds of ballots a week, for all 50 states? Would  
>you take the time to read them all? And a lot of things that LOOKED like  
>ballots were actually political commentary advertisements?

Are you seriously trying to claim that rec.music.synth gets hundreds of
CFV's per week? And that the followups to all those CFV's (which are
set to news.groups) appear in rec.music.synth? This really IS a
problem. I don't recall there being hundreds of CFV's in a week in the
news.* groups, so I am at a loss to explain why so many show up in
rec.music.synth.

P.S. I am not new to this thread.

Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 00:14:52 GMT

dave@bradley.bradley.edu (David Vessell) writes:
>>That's an interesting assumption. Are you sure?
>What the hell kind of a question is that?  Are YOU sure?  Maybe you should
>check a few of these things, Mr. Sysadmin, before you go blathering about
>the net?

The fact that I haven't is reflected in the comment above. There are many
ancient echoing programs that expected to only have 8 character conference
names. 

>SO TELL ME, WHAT IS THE POINT?  DOES YOUR ORIGINAL POINT NOT SUIT YOU
>ANYMORE?

Like I told you before, the point is the same...but I reserve the right
to change the expression thereof. The current expression is that the
CFV was not posted in a clear manner (e.g. subject line: CFV 
rec.music.makers.*) to members of rec.music.synth. The original point
was the awareness that the name was being changed to suit other than a 
plurality of the participants.

>At this point, how can they not be aware of the change?  The name change
>has been announced and now if a site loses their connection, they'll know
>wny, and they'll take the steps necessary to reconnect.  Is that so hard?

Hopefully, not. But we'll see. Already one of the mailing list people is
not about to change anything. 

>Oh, I don't know, like substantial proof and not just your word against
>ours?  Look it up in the dictionary, for crissake.

Check the headers of all the messages posted about this. There's your
evidence. Nowhere do any of them say "rec.music.synth RENAME". 

>You can't prove that this happened.  Posting articles is not the only way
>to participate in a newsgroup.

Just because I can't prove it does not mean that it's not happening. 

>Besides, my YES vote wasn't counted.  Does that mean if you get the vote
>overturned, I can stop you?

If there is a revote, you'll have your chance. 
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

A great deal of thought is only a substitute for the thoughts which the 
individual would really find useful at the time.
From: peter@ferranti.com (peter da silva)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Why alt.folklore.computers should stay in alt (was: leave alt.folklore.computers alone, rmgroup comp.society.folklore)
Date: 11 Nov 92 15:36:35 GMT
Organization: Xenix Support, FICC

In article <1992Nov10.153819.10945@pollux.lu.se> magnus@thep.lu.se (Magnus Olsson) writes:
> In article <id.05UU.HRK@ferranti.com> peter@ferranti.com (peter da silva) writes:
> You're right in that folklore can have a factual content; I've never
> disputed that personally (sorry if that wasn't clear from my post).
> However, many people do *not* agree with you.

Tough. I'm not going to support choosing a group name so some clueless
net.police wannabes (who give us real net.fascists a bad name) can't
catch a clue in a drift net.

> Also, even though there is "factual folklore", I still can't see most
> of the posts in a.f.c as folklore. To me, folklore means something
> passed down as oral traditions through the generations, *not*
> recounting of first-hand knowledge or quotes from manuals.

This *is* an oral tradition passed down through the generations. Remember,
in this business a generation can be as short as three years.

> I used to think so, too. What made me change my mind was when I called
> for the creation of alt.folklore.science. I had imagined a group like
> a.f.c, but encompassing all scientific activities, not just computing.
> Instead we got something very much like a subset of a.f.urban. 

That's because "science" is a word that a lot of people have strange ideas
about. Very few people know what "science" really means, plus there are
fewer people "doing science" on the net than there people who "do computers".
I think this is more a result of demographics than tradition.
-- 
Peter da Silva / 77487-5012 USA / +1 713 274 5180
true(<<VV$@\\$'&O 9$O%'$LT$&$"V6"$&$<4$?'&$ #I&&?$=$<<@)24 24 scale 3 21 moveto
{dup 36 eq{pop not}{dup 7 and 4 sub exch 56 and 8 div 4 sub 2 index{rlineto}{
rmoveto}ifelse}ifelse}forall stroke pop showpage % Har du kramat din varg idag?
From: ksdavis@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Karleenus Schwartz Davis)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: Should rec.music.makers.synth stand as a group name?
Date: 12 Nov 92 21:29:19 GMT
Organization: Indiana University

DAVE>>> This is a request for discussion on letting rec.music.makers.synth 
DAVE>>> stand as a replacement for rec.music.synth. 

JAY>> It should be a discussion on a vote to rename rec.music.makers.synth
JAY>> back to rec.music.synth.

DAVE> But it's not. 

[. . .]

JAY>> NO! You're revoting the original question, on which the net has already
JAY>> spoken. 

DAVE>Damn Straight. And it hasn't spoken as fully as it might. 


You admit that you are revoting the original question?  That is
clearly against the guidelines.  I oppose.  The only thing you 
*might be* able to do under the guidelines is to propose a rename 
of the existing group rec.music.makers.synth to rec.music.synth.  
Of course, that would involve admitting that rec.music.synth exists,
and crossposting there, in order to reach the "affected people." 


-sz


(In case you don't know who the players are already, here's a key)

DAVE :== dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
JAY  :== jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) 
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 21:10:04 GMT

In article <7766@lib.tmc.edu> jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)  
writes:
> 
> A set of guidelines that can be tossed out whenever someone complains  
loudly
> enough is worthless.
> 
> That's EXACTLY what you're demanding.
> 
> I, and others who have posted on this thread, will not stand for it. I  
DO NOT
> CONSIDER THIS POINT NEGOTIABLE.
> 

How dare we suggest that the guiedlines have a flaw or that the way they  
were carried out could have been better? Do I see an "America Love it or  
Leave it" bumper sticker?

> >There *was indeed* a procedural irregularity. THERE WAS NO CLEAR  
SUBJECT
> >LINE. It was entirely unfair to hide a renaming inside of an unrelated
> >reorg. You even agreed that it was, a few postings back, didn't you? 
> 
> I agreed to no such thing. I agreed that the name could have been  
clearer, but
> I did not and do not agree that the vote was unfair. All someone had to  
do was
> READ THE MESSAGES! Is that too much to ask?
> 

As much to ask as making the subject lines clear. 

> If you weren't convinced that a revote would reverse the results, you  
wouldn't
> be screaming for it. The folks in r.m.s, as well as any other interested
> netter, had an opportunity to participate. Those who chose not to are  
stuck
> with the result. That's how it is in the real world, your political  
theorizing
> notwithstanding.

In the REAL world if you received a California ballot that was labelled  
Nevada, made to look like junk mail and at the bottom had a proposition to  
rename California to usa.westcoast.california, I think the public would  
have grounds for a complaint. Then again that wouldn't happen in the REAL  
world...

Gordon
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------
From: apardon@rc1.vub.ac.be (Antoon Pardon)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.frp.campaign
Date: 12 Nov 92 13:21:11 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Brussels Free Universities (VUB/ULB), Belgium

In article <BxF80G.JqC@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu>, cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca writes:
|> 
|> ... [stuff deleted]
|> 
|> As I've said repeatedly, the purpose of .campaign is not to just 'play games'.
|> Infact the first line of the proposal specificly states that is not
|> the purpose of .campaign.  I am constantly shocked that people keep asking
|> me if that is the group's purpose....

Well this seems to indicate that at least the name you are proposing
puts people on the wrong foot as to what to expect from this newsgroup

========================================================================
Antoon Pardon                                        <apardon@vub.ac.be>
Brussels Free University Computing Centre                   02/650.37.16
========================================================================

Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.policy,rec.music.synth
From: ray@philmtl.philips.ca (Ray Dunn)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Not Philips.
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 23:31:35 GMT

Although I know how the net loves a bun-fight, I'm astounded at how patient
most people are being in dealing with this situation.  A long time ago I
came to the conclusion that the only inflexible party was Mr.  Hayes, and
that his behaviour was demonstrably irrational and remarkably self
centered.

And yet the majority of posters continue to respond to him with rational,
reasonable arguments while he continues to respond with intransigence,
narrow vision, selfish reasoning, claims of hidden support, and now veiled
threats.

I think a few congratulations are in order.
-- 
Ray Dunn at home        |  Beaconsfield, Quebec  |  Phone: (514) 630 3749
ray@philmtl.philips.ca  |  dunn@cam.org          |  uunet!sobeco!philmtl!ray
Newsgroups: news.groups,comp.ai,comp.ai.neural-nets,sci.engr.control
From: ree@utrcv1 (Bob Erickson)
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.ai.fuzzy
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Keywords: fuzzy
Reply-To: ree@utrc.utc.com
Organization: United Technologies Research Center
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 05:06:00 GMT

In article <1992Nov3.221144.20296@til.til.com>, erik@maui.til.com (Erik Horstkotte) writes...
..
>I'm not sure there *was* a consensus.  IMHO, fuzzy isn't AI.  I'd
>like to see comp.fuzzy instead of comp.ai.fuzzy, but I'll vote for
>comp.ai.fuzzy over *nothing*.
>-- 
>Erik Horstkotte, Togai InfraLogic, Inc.

I feel fuzzy logic can be viewed as either a system of mathematics (used 
for controls, clustering, etc.), or a way of representing knowledge 
(fuzzy rules, related terms, etc.).

We recently decided to extend the horizon of our fuzzy logic study group
to include genetic algorithms, neural networks, chaos theory, etc.
The main theme is to explore the potential of
various technologies which are emerging as primary components of machine
intelligence research and development.
As you can see, we group them using the word 'intelligence'.

I suppose it could be either one, but why dicker over fine points.
I vote YES to comp.ai.fuzzy 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Erickson                                         #include <disclaimer.std>
ree@utrc.utc.com
United Technologies Research Center
  Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong.
                --Oscar Wilde
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: gdearing@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Gregory D Dearing)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.netrek reorganization
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 21:21:15 GMT

In article <BxIHnn.Cw@uunet.uu.net> adc@tardis.cl.msu.edu (Alan D. Cabrera) writes:
>SUMMARY
>
>This is the Request For Discussion regarding the proposal to split 
>the newsgroup rec.games.netrek, containing discussion of the game 
>netrek.
>
>The proposed groups are .announce .inl .programmer and .d.

There was a little discussion on this about a week ago, but I thought
the general consensus was that it was a silly idea.  Did I miss the
relevant articles (200 unread articles in rec.games.netrek = ugh),
or is he doing this on his own?

-- 
Greg Dearing
Email: Dearing.2@osu.edu
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Subject: Re: Group splits, killfiles...
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 18:54:03 GMT

In article <96769@netnews.upenn.edu> rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich  
Kulawiec) writes:
> BTW, one useful tip for folks whose
> newsreaders support killfiles or an equivalent mechanism: since articles
> in news.announce.newgroups are usually followed by a discussion in
> news.groups, if you see a thread starting that doesn't issue you,
> add the subject to your news.groups killfile. 

Hmmm. This would have been a great way to add the rec.music.makers  
proposal article subjects to your killfile based on the first RFD which  
didn't affect rec.music.synth.

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------
Xref: sparky news.groups:20597 alt.folklore.computers:15941 alt.folklore.urban:27686
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.folklore.computers,alt.folklore.urban
Subject: Re: leave alt.folklore.computers alone, rmgroup comp.society.folklore
From: david@datamark.co.nz (David Rowland)
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 02:09:27 GMT
Organization: Datamark International Ltd.

In article <1992Nov7.030304.9126@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> PAPAI@kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu (Jonathan Papai) writes:

<Deleted Dribble>

>
>	SFU just doesn't have the same ring as AFU.  Hell,
>were just getting the people in sci.materials finding
>out what AFU means.  Go ahead and have a vote to rename
>any of the above groups.  I predict a landslide against.
>

To tell you the truth, SFU looks close to SNAFU (Situation Normal, All
F*****D Up)  8^}.
-- 
| David Rowland       | The British are using New Zealanders.  They must |
| Datamark Intl Ltd   | really mean business !                           |
| Wellington          |      -  General Rommel During Northern African   |
| NEW ZEALAND         |         Campaign WWII.                           |
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: cathyf@is.rice.edu (Catherine Anne Foulston)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Rice University
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 20:01:58 GMT

In article <1992Nov7.060600.22559@blaze.cs.jhu.edu> arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:
>In article <42+qafq@lynx.unm.edu> lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble) writes:
>>Can you please explain *how* anyone is going to be injured by the renaming
>>of this newsgroup?

>If newsgroup names _really_ don't matter, it would be wrong to speak of a bad
>newsgroup name--ever.  Yet, I'm sure you recognize that there is such a thing
>as a bad newsgroup name; for instance, I doubt you would approve of
>sci.aquaria.manga.music.synth.  This position just isn't consistent.

Well, it just depends.  If I'm trying to think about what's best for
the net as a whole, then naming interests me, and I wouldn't like to
see a newsgroup name like that.  On the other hand, if I don't care
about any of that, it doesn't make a whole lot of difference to me.
When it comes to just reading it daily, I actually wouldn't care if
rec.humor.funny were renamed sci.aquaria.manga.music.synth, as long as
someone warned me before the name change took effect so I could find it.
I might, with my namespace purist hat on, think it was stupid, but it
wouldn't make any difference to my day-to-day reading.

About the only way (apart from being a namespace purist) I think I could
care about a group name would be if the name caused lots of inappropriate
posts to be made.  I can't see that either r.m.s or r.m.m.s is likely to
attract highly inappropriate posts, but I don't read it so maybe I'm
wrong.

	Cathy
-- 
Cathy Foulston + Rice University + Network & Systems Support + cathyf@rice.edu
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: calvinj@ecs.comm.mot.com (Calvin Jestice)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.equestrian.racing
Organization: control_centers
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 17:41:43 GMT

Y'all,

    In response to Ginny's RFD on rec.equestrian.racing.  There is 
currently a mailing list which covers all of Ginny's topics.  It is:

                      derby@ekrl.com

    The list is maintained by John Wilkes and has members from the
United States, Canada, England and Australia.  Members of the list
have varying degrees of experience in handicapping and horse care.
We even have a member that assists in the care and foaling of horses
at the leading Canadian stable, Samson Farm.  Requests to join the 
group should be directed to:

               derby-request@ekrl.com 

    The most common topics for the group are handicapping, major 
events at tracks across the country, major races, handicapping 
contests, breeding and ways to improve the sport.  Traffic is 
usually about six pieces per day.

    The reason for this recent RFD is Ginny is encountering strong 
differences of opinions with members of derby@ekrl.com about the
recent tragic accident that resulted in the death of Mr. Brooks in
the Breeders' Cup.  She was urging that what happened was not an
accident and that the members of the mailing list were less than
moral for not calling for a full investigation.  Ginny, by her own
admission, is new to racing and admits to not yet understanding
what goes on before or during a race.  This RFD is just a call for
a sympathetic ear.

    I feel the topic of horse racing is well covered by the mailing 
list and a separate newsgroup would be a waste of bandwidth.  Again
if you are interested in joining us or just want to find what is out 
there before you vote, send a note to:

               derby-request@ekrl.com 

Be sure to include an Internet email address (i.e., a "@" address.)
Uucp "bang-style" addresses severely confuse the local software that
processes alias mail.

Cal Jestice
calvinj@ecs.comm.mot.com

If you bet on a horse - that's gambling
If you bet you get three spades - that's entertainment
If you bet cotton will go up three points - that's business
See the difference?

--
From: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: rec.music.synth (again)
Date: 11 Nov 92 11:59:26 GMT
Organization: GSP Whitewater Slalom Racing Team

In article <2940003@hpcc01.corp.hp.com> bparrish@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (William Parrish) writes:
>(1) One person said that if a CFV appears in this group, that it affects
>this group... not so... there are also a couple of CFVs in the non-expired
>stuff that is for REC.MUSIC.REGGAE (I think that's spelled right).

I should point out that the currently-posted CFV's for rec.music.reggae
are *not* valid CFV's for a number of reasons: one of those reasons is
that they were not posted to news.announce.newgroups.  A second reason is
that at least one copy of the CFV's does not specify a voting period; a
third is that these CFV's do not seem to have been preceded by a CFD
and a discussion.  The author of these CFV's has been apprised of this
via e-mail; his response was, in part, "Oh, well".  I believe I've seen
a second set of rec.music.reggae CFV's which *does* specify a voting period,
but still were not posted to news.announce.newgroups.

---Rsk
Newsgroups: news.groups