HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: brian@coombs.anu.edu.au (Brian)
Newsgroups: aus.politics
Subject: Re: Compulsory Voting
Date: 12 Nov 92 01:49:23 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.76.2

chris@suite.sw.oz.au (Chris Maltby) writes:

>In <brian.721369072@coombs> brian@coombs.anu.edu.au (Brian) writes:

>>suter@fawlty8.eng.monash.edu.au (Mr D. Suter) writes:
>>
>>>In article <1992Nov9.104806.165040@dstos3.dsto.gov.au> mjp@itd.dsto.gov.au writes:
>>
>>>A vote is a vote is a vote.. and only counts
>>>once (no more no less). 
>>
>>	Really?  Then what happens to the preferences you cast David?

>I'm not sure what you're trying to say. A preferential vote only
>counts once too. It's just that its probabilty of counting once
>is >= 50%, whereas in the first past the post system it's <= 50%.
>Got it?

	Under the preferential system we have, effectively you get not
just one vote, but as many more votes it takes to get the candidate which
is most likely to represent your views (_but_ not necessarily your first
choice) elected.  Therefore, your vote is not counted just once (as David
like to maintain) but as often as is necessary to gain a result.


--
Brian Ross_____Brian@Coombs.anu.edu.au________________________________________
	"Three discoveries are essential to the contented and civilised life -
sex, wine, and bookshops, by no means necessarily in that order."
_________________________________Tony Baker, Adelaide Review, October 1992____
Newsgroups: aus.politics
Subject: Re: ALP in the Lead 
From: mjp@itd.dsto.gov.au
Date: 12 Nov 92 10:16:21 CST
Distribution: aus

pol253b@monu1.cc.monash.edu.au (Ms D Alexander) writes:

>Although it is doubtful that Jeff Kennett is good for much, I think he
>deserves the credit for this one. 

>Dey.

I'm amazed at the parellels with our student union in which
the libs were elected (because they put up lots of posters
violating copyright on phantom of the opera).

When they got in, they claimed to have a mandate for a lot
more than they had advertised. The appointed an incredibly
biased chair. (Often the "backbenchers" were asking the
chair which way they should be voting on this motion.)

They tried to change to constitution to get rid of
constitutional allocation for the women's rights area and
the postgrad area. Result: sit ins, the post grad area is
planning to ceceed. (So now the union will get 0 instead of
75% of postgrad fees -and they are the fastest growing group
on campus).

When large numbers of students turned up at the council
meetings (as is their constitutional right) they were asked
to show their student cards (trying to spread the
RENT-A-CROWD myth) but they all had them.

Later they called a secret meeting without notice
(constitutionally invalid) to guillotine through the
changes.

Well, at the next election, we had a record voter turn out
and they were thouroughly turffed out.

Michael
--
Michael Pilling				Phone: +61 8 259 7017
Software Engineering Group		Fax: +61 8 259 5980
Information Technology Division		Telex: AA82799
DSTO Australia				michael_pilling@itd.dsto.gov.au
Newsgroups: aus.politics
Subject: Re: Compulsory Voting
From: mjp@itd.dsto.gov.au
Date: 6 Nov 92 09:38:21 CST
 <1992Nov4.085327.4172@darwin.ntu.edu.au> <1992Nov5.102116.164994@dstos3.dsto.gov.au> <1992Nov5.071408.27387@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>

suter@fawlty8.eng.monash.edu.au (Mr D. Suter) writes:

>In article <1992Nov5.102116.164994@dstos3.dsto.gov.au> mjp@itd.dsto.gov.au writes:
>>b_duke@darwin.ntu.edu.au (Brian Duke) writes:
>>
>>>Compulsory voting places an obligation on the authorities to provide these
>>>polling booths where people live. Without it there would be a tendency
>>>to say "They don't have to vote. If they really want to they can spend
>>>all week getting to the polling booth".
>>
>>Precisely, without compulsory voting you don't have equal
>>access nor equal voting power (value).
>Look - if you guys want to say that making voting non-compulsory
>means the electoral office is allowed to be slacker in making
>it easy for people to vote, then you obviously don't value
>the right to vote highly independently of anything else.
>I do value that right highly and
>independently. Compulsory or not makes no difference - I won't be
>making excuses for the electoral office to become slack - I'm
>a bit surprised you seem ready to let them.
>Please don't use your own slackness in allowing the above scenario
>to be used as a straw man.
>Jesus, talk about confusing the issues.
>d.s.

David,
	so far you have avoided the major issue,
how am I guaranteed that my vote will count fully if you do
not vote? (In real life this would be a non-issue as I'm
sure we would vote almost in opposite directions.)

Michael
--
Michael Pilling				Phone: +61 8 259 7017
Software Engineering Group		Fax: +61 8 259 5980
Information Technology Division		Telex: AA82799
DSTO Australia				michael_pilling@itd.dsto.gov.au
From: brian@coombs.anu.edu.au (Brian)
Newsgroups: aus.politics
Subject: Re: Compulsory Voting
Date: 10 Nov 92 04:13:41 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.76.2

brendan@otc.otca.oz (Brendan Jones) writes:

>> [re Brian's comment of obstacles to register to vote in the US]

>I've just learnt (from all the US election coverage) that you *cannot*
>register to vote in the US by mail - in fact George Bush *vetoed* a petition
>that would have changed the law in this respect.

>Very interesting.

	Not that unusual.  Its just another example of how people who live 
at a distance from government centres (ie large towns) are disinfranchised.

	What I find particularly interesting is that you are required to
declare apparently on your US voting form your political affiliation if you
desire to vote in their crazy "primaries" system.



--
Brian Ross_____Brian@Coombs.anu.edu.au________________________________________
	"Three discoveries are essential to the contented and civilised life -
sex, wine, and bookshops, by no means necessarily in that order."
_________________________________Tony Baker, Adelaide Review, October 1992____
Newsgroups: aus.politics
From: chris@suite.sw.oz.au (Chris Maltby)
Subject: Re: Compulsory Voting
Organization: Softway Pty Ltd
Date:  5 Nov 92 23:37:26 GMT

In <1992Nov4.234114.8324@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au> suter@fawlty8.eng.monash.edu.au (Mr D. Suter) writes:
>You claim to know what's best for me and deny me a fundamental
>right - to abstain with dignity (not through some quirk of the
>enforcement of your legislation). That's a bigger insult methinks.

David (and all the opponents of compulsory voting),

Here's a simple remedy. Don't register to vote. If you get caught,
take it to court. If you are forced to register, don't vote. If you
get caught, take that to court. If you are fined, don't pay. If they
put you in prison, go on a hunger strike. If you have to die to protect
our rights, it's a small price to pay. A massive campaign of civil
disobedience will surely bring the result you want! After all, it's
every citizen's right to protest against unfair legislation.

David, what are you waiting for? Start today!

Yours etc,
Chris
-- 
Chris Maltby - Softway Pty Ltd		Internet: chris@softway.sw.oz.au

PHONE:	+61-2-698-2322	"I'm waiting for X-Windows to become just that;
FAX:	+61-2-699-9174	 Ex-Windows" - A McGrath.
Newsgroups: aus.politics
From: mikef@dph1.health.su.OZ.AU
Subject: Period between PM election win and taking office
Originator: mikef@dph1
Keywords: PM, election 
Organization: Dept Public Health, Sydney University
Distribution: aus
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1992 05:43:31 GMT

I was discussing the recent US election with a friend and remarked to
him that I thought the 2.5 month period between the election victory and
the President elect actually taking office was rather long. He retorted
that there is indeed a period in which we have a PM elect in Australia. That
is, the newly elected PM does not immediately assume the role, and further
that there is a period of weeks before the taking of office.

I conceded that there may be a period of days before the swearing in
ceremony but would not agree that it was longer. I also thought that we do
not have a PM elect but rather that the newly elected PM assumes office
immediately after the election win, that is after the opposition has
conceded defeat.

Could someone help by explaining the reality of the situation?

Thanks in advance.


-- 
__
Michael Fahey         | Internet: mikef@pub.health.su.oz.au
Dept of Public Health | UUCP: uunet!munnari.oz.au!pub.health.su!mikef
University of Sydney  | Bitnet: mikef%pub.health.su.oz.au@cunyvm.bitnet
From: brian@coombs.anu.edu.au (Brian)
Newsgroups: aus.politics
Subject: Re: Compulsory Voting
Date: 12 Nov 92 01:56:53 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.76.2

suter@fawlty8.eng.monash.edu.au (Mr D. Suter) writes:

>In article <brian.721369072@coombs> brian@coombs.anu.edu.au (Brian) writes:
>>suter@fawlty8.eng.monash.edu.au (Mr D. Suter) writes:
>>
>>>A vote is a vote is a vote.. and only counts
>>>once (no more no less). 
>>
>>	Really?  Then what happens to the preferences you cast David?

[...David's incorrect view of the voting system deleted in order to save 
bandwidth...]

>Are you really so ignorant of the operation and rationale
>for proportional voting? Or have you just decided that you must challenge
>everything I say?

	No David, simply pointing out the stupidity of what you say.  It
shows a real lack of understanding of the _PREFERENTIAL_ (not the proportional)
voting system for you to believe that your vote is, only counted "once".

	It is indeed counted as often as there are candidates on the ballot
until the candidate which most closely resembles the one of your first choice,
achieves the required number of votes to win the seat.  Perhaps you should
go and learn a little about what your are mouthing off about?


--
Brian Ross_____Brian@Coombs.anu.edu.au________________________________________
	"Three discoveries are essential to the contented and civilised life -
sex, wine, and bookshops, by no means necessarily in that order."
_________________________________Tony Baker, Adelaide Review, October 1992____
Newsgroups: aus.politics
From: miw@cc.uq.oz.au (Mark I. Williams)
Subject: Re: Compulsory voting (Re: Will Victorians vote stupid yet again...?)
Organization: Prentice Centre, University of Queensland
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 02:53:08 GMT

mjp@itd.dsto.gov.au writes:

>But these people do not claim to represent you and indeed do
>not. In this case it is up to you to field better candidates
>and elect them so that your representatives could counteract
>them in parliament.

Yes, but even the people who represent other constituencies can affect
*me*, and since my vote cannot affect whether or not they get elected,
the system is, by your, definition, undemocratic.

>So we should accept grossly unfair electoral systems? At
>least we can get systems that satisfy the wants of 95% of
>the public.

Of course we don't have to accept a grossly unfair electoral system. I
know I wouldn't. Luckily, we don't have a grossly unfair electoral
system here.

I've lived in a country (Germany) which has a supposedly 'fairer'
electoral system (which is still a long way from the full chaos of PR)
which just seemed to provide for instability of Government. Contrary to
popular belief, Germany's political system is inherantly unstable, a
fact that people are finding out now that there are more than three
major parties. Just about every government in Germany is currently a
shaky coalition.

For all its faults, even first past the post gives better government
than PR.

cheers,



--
Mark Williams         The University of Queensland       miw@cc.uq.edu.au
+61 7 36 54012   (w)  Prentice Centre
+61 7 36 54477  (fax) Qld 4072  Australia
Nullum magnum ingenium sine mixtura dementiae fuit.  -- Seneca
From: hoconnel@iti.org (Heath O'Connell)
Newsgroups: aus.politics
Subject: Re: ALP in the Lead
Date: 10 Nov 1992 22:26:33 GMT
Organization: The University of Adelaide
Distribution: aus
NNTP-Posting-Host: adelphi.itd.adelaide.edu.au

mjp@itd.dsto.gov.au writes:

>hoconnel@iti.org (Heath O'Connell) writes:

>>	Well there's something to look forward to. 

>It is certainly somewhat of a relief, but I am looking for
>an improvement not just more of the same.

	Well there's nothing stopping them at the moment.

--
		hoconnel@adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au
Newsgroups: aus.politics
Subject: Re: Compulsory Voting
From: mjp@itd.dsto.gov.au
Date: 6 Nov 92 10:05:31 CST
 <brian.720945926@coombs> <1992Nov5.075356.1738@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>

suter@fawlty8.eng.monash.edu.au (Mr D. Suter) writes:

>>	It MEANS that we DO NOT HAVE A COMPULSORY VOTING SYSTEM.  C
>The electoral office says different.
>>Are you claiming that you should not be compelled by society to attend
>>particular places if societ decides that is best?  If you do, then you'd
>>better perhaps explain why then we have compulsory education, compulsory
>>driving tests (if you want to drive) and other aspects of our lives which
>>we accept as needing some degree of regulation.
>NO. So why suggest i am?
David, he is not suggesting you are, he is saying that the
principle is morally and operationally the same. He is
asking why you are hung up about this and inconsistent.

--
Michael Pilling				Phone: +61 8 259 7017
Software Engineering Group		Fax: +61 8 259 5980
Information Technology Division		Telex: AA82799
DSTO Australia				michael_pilling@itd.dsto.gov.au
Newsgroups: aus.politics
Subject: Re: Compulsory Voting
From: mjp@itd.dsto.gov.au
Date: 9 Nov 92 10:53:14 CST
 <1992Nov6.100533.165011@dstos3.dsto.gov.au> <1992Nov6.012111.14841@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>

suter@fawlty8.eng.monash.edu.au (Mr D. Suter) writes:

>I also thought it was obvious that what I was arguing was that
>there is no clear evidence that compulsory voting improves our society.
>Against this it is entirely evident that it has the adverse effect
>of masking the "couldn't give F*CK vote" purely to make us look
>better on paper.

This is the first time you have ever mentioned this David,
all your argument has been along the lines of how dare you
invade my civil liberties with compulsion.

As to adverse effects, you only have to look at the
societies which disinfranchise people:

	South Africa
	USA - grossly low literacy rates

Australia is doing very well on most counts and it is partly
but not soley because it is difficult to disenfranchise
groups here.

Michael
--
Michael Pilling				Phone: +61 8 259 7017
Software Engineering Group		Fax: +61 8 259 5980
Information Technology Division		Telex: AA82799
DSTO Australia				michael_pilling@itd.dsto.gov.au
Newsgroups: aus.politics
Subject: Re: implication of GST
From: mjp@itd.dsto.gov.au
Date: 6 Nov 92 09:27:45 CST

On 21-Oct-92, mjp@itd.dsto.gov.au writes:

>As it happens, I don't think this situation will occur.
>I suspect that the ALP will vote for the GST, but not
>for the tax cuts/industrial relations package. I hope I am
>wrong because I don't believe you flatten the govt by
>flattening the country.

The only thing I am surprised about the latest news
is that anyone was surprised that Labor anounced it would
vote for the GST in the Senate. This just shows how little
difference there is between the 2 biggest parties, one wants
to implement right wing policies up front, the other by
stealth.

Michael
--
Michael Pilling				Phone: +61 8 259 7017
Software Engineering Group		Fax: +61 8 259 5980
Information Technology Division		Telex: AA82799
DSTO Australia				michael_pilling@itd.dsto.gov.au
From: Joe.Slater@f351.n632.z3.fidonet.org (Joe Slater)
Sender: acsnet@csource.oz.au
Newsgroups: aus.politics
Subject: Vic Ministers Get $20,000 pay rise.
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1992 18:13:01

Friday November 06 1992, MDR writes to (crosspost 1) All:

In article <9230313.10064@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU> Tim Leask,
tsl@munta.cs.mu.OZ.AU writes:
>> I'm amazed that there's been little or no media attention given to
>> the fact
>> that all the salaries of Victorian Government ministers are to go up
>> by $20,000 dollars.

M> FYI, my brother in law works at State Parliament, and he told me that
M> there were 17 divisions on the night that this legislation went
M> through. 17 is a rather large number of divisions considering the
M> majority the new government holds, to put it mildly.  My own feeling
M> is that they wanted to miss the morning press, considering that the
M> session didn t end until 4.00am.

Um, Labor was the one calling the divisions. It's a time-wasting tactic used
primarily by Oppositions and by Governments in trouble. Why would this
Government call one? I think this rather destroys your conspiracy theory.

jds

 * Origin: What horrors wait for me in this, the Phantom's Opera? (3:632/351)
Newsgroups: aus.politics
From: suter@fawlty8.eng.monash.edu.au (Mr D. Suter)
Subject: Re: Compulsory voting (Re: Will Victorians vote stupid yet again...?)
Organization: Monash University
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 02:07:44 GMT

In article <1ddlnjINNkfq@ariel.ucs.unimelb.EDU.AU> jcollier@ariel.ucs.unimelb.EDU.AU (John Donald Collier) writes:
>suter@fawlty8.eng.monash.edu.au (Mr D. Suter) writes:
>
>>I think this about your entire attitude mate. 
>>d.s.
>
>No doubt. You are making quite a bit about a very minor
>imposition, so you are most likely not laying your cards
>on the table. Of course you are offended to be called on it.
You may well think that having to vote/turn out is a small imposition
and most people seem to agree with you. However, your suggestion
that the penalty for people abstaining ought to be the surrender
of some of their democratic rights leads me to ask what cards aren't you 
putting on the table. Just what rights?
As to not laying my cards on the table - I thought I had (and probably
too extensively for the taste of most not so interested in this debate).
I can assure you I have no hidden agenda other than achieving true
recognition of the fact that people can have good reasons for not
wanting to cast a vote. If the electoral office were to correctly
print the true situation (voting is not compulsory but attendance
to have your name checked against the list is) and/or placed
a recognised "no opinion" slot on the ballot paper, then I would
be somehwat placated. I don't see how any of this should be
on pain of some unspecified loss of democratic rights.
d.s.
-- 
David Suter - Dept. of Electrical and
Computer Systems Engineering, Monash University,
Clayton, Vic. 3168, Australia
ph 565 5682 Fax 565 3454
From: b_duke@darwin.ntu.edu.au (Brian Duke)
Newsgroups: aus.politics
Subject: Re: Compulsory Voting
Date: 5 Nov 92 14:33:28 +0900

In article <1992Nov4.053137.5524@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>, suter@fawlty8.eng.monash.edu.au (Mr D. Suter) writes:
> In article <1992Nov4.085327.4172@darwin.ntu.edu.au> b_duke@darwin.ntu.edu.au (Brian Duke) writes:
>>I have a different view on compulsory voting from here in the top end.
>>This week there is a bye-election going on. When I say "this week", I
>>do not mean on this coming Saturday. The electorate is Arafura, which 
>>consists of part of Arnhem Land and the Tiwi Islands - a predominantly
>>aboriginal electorate and more important one with a very thin spread out 
>>population. Voting in many places is by mobile polling booth and these
>>started work on Monday, carrying on all week. Only a few larger 
>>communities vote on Saturday.
>>
>>Compulsory voting places an obligation on the authorities to provide these
>>polling booths where people live. Without it there would be a tendency
>>to say "They don't have to vote. If they really want to they can spend
>>all week getting to the polling booth".
> Sorry, but this is rubbish. Whether people are compelled to vote or
> not is an entirely different issue to whether the govt is compelled
> to achieve level XXX of accessibility. Definig a reasonable level
> of accessibility remains just as tricky an issue either way.
It might be different in principle, but in practice with the kind 
of politicians we have here and the massive cost of elections in the NT,
I believe compulsory voting, approved federally, is an important safeguard
of relatively easy access to voting in very remote areas.
>>
>>If you think this is far fetched, consider this. I believe (I was not here
>>at the time) that when Paul Everingham was Chief Minister in the NT, he wanted
>>to stop compulsory voting for aboriginals only. If he had succeeded, I
>>reckon the Electoral Commission would not now be going to the effort they
>>are.
> In any election you have have to make reasonable alternative means
> (postal votes etc) available. Compulsory voting does not change
> this on way or the other.
Postal votes?? I supect in some place the post office is further away than the
main polling station. The mobile polling guys would have to go in to collect
the postal votes!
-- 
                  Brian Salter-Duke (Brian Duke)
School of Chemistry and Earth Sciences, Northern Territory University
        GPO Box 40146, Casuarina, NT 0811, Australia.
Phone 089-466702   FAX 089-410460    E-mail B_DUKE@DARWIN.NTU.EDU.AU
Newsgroups: aus.politics
From: pol253b@monu1.cc.monash.edu.au (Ms D Alexander)
Subject: Re: Vic Ministers Get $20,000 pay rise.
Keywords: ministerial salaries
Organization: Monash University, Australia.
Distribution: aus
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 13:04:31 GMT

In article <1992Nov3.093158.164970@dstos3.dsto.gov.au> mjp@itd.dsto.gov.au writes:
>
>What I find amazing is the sheer political ineptness of it
>all. I mean suppose you had always intended to give that pay
>rise, why do it within 3 days and just after scrapping leave
>loadings.

Little boys with new crayons simply must draw with them, right away!

Dey

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Newsgroups: aus.politics
Subject: Re: Vic Ministers Get $20,000 pay rise.
From: mjp@itd.dsto.gov.au
Date: 11 Nov 92 09:19:18 CST
 <1992Nov6.011445.14023@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au> 
 <1992Nov9.122025.165044@dstos3.dsto.gov.au> <1992Nov9.025849.12302@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>

suter@fawlty8.eng.monash.edu.au (Mr D. Suter) writes:

>>more feul efficient cars (assuming you can afford to at all)
>                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>and that's the crux. It's much cheaper to buy and run an old
>gas guzzler 

Precisely, I want to hold on to my 85 Laser as long as
possible because it is the last of the user servicable cars.
It is actually nicely fuel efficient, and I hope by the time
I throw it away I'll be able to buy a significantly more
fuel efficient car or better still have a decent public
transport system.

Michael
--
Michael Pilling				Phone: +61 8 259 7017
Software Engineering Group		Fax: +61 8 259 5980
Information Technology Division		Telex: AA82799
DSTO Australia				michael_pilling@itd.dsto.gov.au
Newsgroups: aus.politics