HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dtate+@pitt.edu (David M Tate)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Value of Stats
Date: 27 Jul 92 22:38:32 GMT
Organization: Factors of Ys, Inc.

In article <9zlm7tn.mzimmers@netcom.com> mzimmers@netcom.com (Michael Zimmers) writes:
>
>I believe that Roger is implying that there is a reason that Salazar
>got such limited time to perform, and he doesn't mean injuries.

You mean bizarre Cubbie experiments at third base?  How is that Salazar's
fault?

>One could make an argument that platoon players see more favorable
>hitting conditions on average than do everyday players.  

Sure.  But, as has already been pointed out Salazar was *not* a platoon
player.  He played full-time when he was "in", and not at all when somebody
else (like Scott) was "in".  Most of his at bats, by a considerable margin,
were against right-handed pitching.


-- 
        David M. Tate        | "And that inverted Bowl we call The Dome
   dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu   |  Whereunder crawling coop'd we field and bat,
   Edward "Mike" Fitzgerald  |     Lift not your eyes to *it* for help--for it
     from "The Ruthaiyat"    |  Will drop the tow'ring fly upon your hat."
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: rickert@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (John H. Rickert)
Subject: Re: What makes a great leadoff?
Keywords: OBP, stolen bases
Organization: Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 19:22:25 GMT


In article <3643@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> dtate+@pitt.edu (David M Tate)  
writes:
>In article <1992Jul23.195514.22037@cs.rose-hulman.edu> 
 rickert@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (John H. Rickert) writes:
>>It's not really a long tradition. There's an article from the 50's 
>>in Baseball Digest's aniiversary issue talking about lineup selection.
>>The 'conventional wisdom' of the day was that a leadoff hitter needed to  
get  
>>on base. This started changing in the 60's.
> 
>I'm not sure this is so cut-and-dried. 
 
>Look at Luis Aparicio.  His career ran from '56 to '73, and he spent the
>first 2/3 of it leading off.  In his first ten seasons, he posted OBPs of  
>.312, .319, .310, .319, .326, .315, .282(!), .294, .327, and .287.  Feh.
>He had exactly one season, 1970 (age 36) when he was an above-average 
> offensive player.  
> I mean, here's a guy who was getting well over 600 plate appearances
>every year, with the best hitters on the team behind him, stealing 50+ bases
>a year, and still never scored 100 runs in a season for any team.  Frankly,
>Mark Belanger was a better player.  And yet they led him off.

I looked some of this up in Baseball Quarterly Reviews. 
Herm Karabbenhoft(sp?) went back and looked up leadoff batters for each team  
since 1920. for those who were 'regular lead-off hitters' (RLH. 
90games in 154 G season, 96G in 162G season) he also listed OBP for the  
season. I combined this with Franklin to get SB leaders and Total Baseball
to get league OBP and came up with the following data. I took 5 year grouping  
to get a decent number of RLHs and did only the AL 'cuz one league is less  
work.
n= no.(#) of RLH. ,
OBP+ is # of RLH's above league OBP, O% is 100*OBP%/n
med is median OBP above league OBP.
SB* is # SB champs( obv. <=5), SB10 is # of RLH in top 10 in AL SB,
S% is 100*SB10/n.
yrs.   n OBP+ O% med  SB* SB10 S%
20-24 25  18  72 +32   0    8  32
25-29 25  21  84 +41.5 2    8  32
30-34 23  16  70 +24   0    5  22
35-39 19  11  58 +10   3   11  58
40-44 19  11  58 + 3   5   13  68
45-49 21  17  81 +32   5   13  62
50-54 22  20  91 +44.5 1    6  27
55-59 16  12  75 +22   2    9  56
60-64 17   9  53 + 6   3    8  47
65-69 27  16  59 + 8   5   18  67

'med' rose in the 70's despite the DH. 
I haven't checked the 80's or the NL.
It does appear that there was a period of drifting away from OBP and toward  
SB in the late 30's- the war years are hard to call since often, teams didn't  
get their first choice, but immediately after the war OBP was back.
By the way those base stealing championships were George Case's - noted in  
Roger Lustig's post as the last before Aparicio to steal 50 in a yr.

In the 80's we have had several high OBP leadoff men, maybe this 
sort of thing is quasi-cyclic and we're in for another wave of speedy, low  
OBP  RLH's during the turn of the century.

john rickert
rickert@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: silber@m.cs.uiuc.edu (Ami A. Silberman)
Subject: Re: Value of Stats
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 07:53:55 GMT

Puckett vs. Bonds, the schism of our time. I suppose, stathead that I am, it
might actually depend upon who else I have on my team, which of them I would
choose. Why? Puckett plays cf, and is offensively one of the best centerfielders
today. Right field is marginaly deeper in quality. If I had Ruben Sierra in
right field, and Sammy Sosa in center, and was reasonably sure that neither
Bonds nor Sierra could play center, then I'ld probably go with Puckett.
(Unless I thought I could trade Sierra for quite a lot.) If, on the other
hand, I had the Cubs outfield, I'ld prefer Bonds, since the gap in quality
between Bonds and Dawson is greater than that between Puckett and Sosa.
Of course, in real life one can persuade players to change position. In real
life one might have to trade more to get Bonds than Puckett, or vice versa.
Or one might have a good prospective deal involving the player whose spot
they replaced.
-- 
ami silberman - janitor of lunacy
	silber@cs.uiuc.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: exujeff@exu.ericsson.se (Jeff Thompson)
Subject: Re: RULEBOOK TRIVIA 14
Organization: Ericsson Network Systems, Inc.
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 13:14:24 GMT

In article <1992Jul24.212511.23460@stsci.edu> rkidwell@stsci.edu (Richard C. Kidwell,mgr) writes:
>Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
>Path: exucom.exu.ericsson.se!ericom!sunic!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!ncar!noao!stsci!rkidwell
>From: rkidwell@stsci.edu (Richard C. Kidwell,mgr)
>Subject: Re: RULEBOOK TRIVIA 14
>Message-ID: <1992Jul24.212511.23460@stsci.edu>
>Originator: rkidwell@slash.stsci.edu
>Sender: news@stsci.edu
>Organization: Space Telescope Science Institute
>References: <64281@hydra.gatech.EDU>
>Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 21:25:11 GMT
>Lines: 25

>From article <64281@hydra.gatech.EDU>, by gt2807a@prism.gatech.EDU (Benjamin H. Cowan):
>> In article <36084@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> demers@cs.ucsd.edu (David DeMers) writes:
>>>In article <92205.211559IO20456@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> IO20456@MAINE.MAINE.EDU (Ryan Robbins) writes:
>>>>With nobody on, the batter hits a high pop-up in front of the
>>>>plate. The catcher gets into position to make the catch, but loses
>>>>sight of the ball just before it comes down and bounces off his
>>>>glove, which is over the plate. The ball squirts to the backstop.
>>>>The catcher retrieves the ball and throws it back to the pitcher.
>>>>The pitcher takes his position on the rubber, the catcher and
>>>>batter go to their boxes, and the pitcher pitches. The batter
>>>>grounds the ball back to the pitcher, and the pitcher throws the
>>>>ball to first for the out. How is this play scored?

>If the ball was touched in fair territory, then it is a fair ball. Home
>plate is in fair territory.
>Since there is no mention of the what ump did, I assume he did nothing-
>this indicates a fair ball. (no requirement to say anything when the ball
>is fair)
>So the play continues: catcher throws to pitcher (valid), batter stays
>in the box (valid), pitcher throws (valid), BUT the batter re_hits the
>ball(invalid). I would say the batter is out upon re_hitting the throw
>back to the catcher, and the ensuing throw to first is inconsequential.

>rck

I might be wrong..but I beleive that if the batter does not attempt to run 
to first base..he is out (i.e. dropped third strike).  Thats how I would 
have called it in Little Leauge.  Of course if I am right, the pitch would 
have never been thrown.
/jeff
============================================================================
Jeff Thompson M/S B-07     || DAoubULLS                 || YOU CAN'T HEAR
Ericsson Network Systems   || TWIN for the TWINS in '92 ||    IF YOUR
P.O. BOX 833875            || PURPLE IS IN              ||    LIPS ARE
Richardson, TX. 75083-3875 || WOLVES ARE CHRISTIANs TOO ||     MOVING
============================================================================
From: IO80772@MAINE.MAINE.EDU (Vardarajan R. Iyengar)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: brewers in fenway?
Date: 27 Jul 92 21:16:40 GMT
Organization: University of Maine System

Could someone please let me know when the brewers visit the
red sox at fenway??
Thanks in advance,
Vardu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: kettler@oppy.mit.edu (KETTLER, THOMAS R.)
Subject: Re: What happened to Leary???
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  
Organization: MIT Lab for Nuclear Science
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 11:48:00 GMT

In article <1992Jul28.190829.27445@europa.asd.contel.com>, king@ssvax.gte.com (Larry King)           writes...
>	Does anyone know what happened to Tim Leary from the Yankees.  I
>think he only has one start since the "foreign object" incident and was
>curious if the Yankees are taking it out on him or what.  Is he hurt,
>bullpen bound, gone????  E-Mail would be great if you have an answer.
>Thanks in advance...
> 
Maybe the Yankees traded him to the Cubs so that the Cubs could make up the 
vast pitching hole resulting from the trade of Danny Jackson with the Yankees 
receiving Luis Salazar in exchange d:;-). (Sorry, I couldn't resist!)

					Sincerely yours,

					Thomas R. Kettler "Expos Fanatic"
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: dtate+@pitt.edu (David M Tate)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Value of Stats
Date: 22 Jul 92 13:51:33 GMT
Organization: Factors of Ys, Inc.

In article <1992Jul21.213913.10295@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca> 91287041@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (roger maynard) writes:
>
>Baseball can be seen as a team sport in the sense that each player necessarily
>brings unique talents and skills to the game.  If you have a pitching staff
>that leans towards strikeouts and deep flys, which short-stop would be the
>"best", the defensive genius or the offensive powerhouse?  

Yes, there are lineup construction issues.  This gives you a sort of
"assignment problem" scenario, where there is a certain value (and/or cost)
for having player X at position Y, and you try to maximize overall team
value.  But there are no *interactions* (or at least not strong ones) here,
until you get out into the fringe regions of contemplating putting Magadan,
HoJo, Jefferies, and Sasser on the infield at the same time.  These are the
sorts of team considerations I had in mind when I mentioned Davis Cup tennis.

>Who is the "best" 1st baseman in a park with a huge foul ball area?  Paul
>Molitor or Cecil?

Mark McGwire :-).  (Point taken)

[...]

>The point is that the quality of a player has to be judged in the context of
>his team just as in any other team sport.  

Why?  This isn't obvious to me.  I can see the park consideration you give
above, but it's a *very* small factor.  I can see preferring a high-OBP guy
to a high-SLG guy if your team has slugging already, but nobody on base.  But
what's wrong with talking about what a player would be worth to an average
team, calling this his "value", and adjusting it for specific cases?

>Is the player who drives in 10
>game winning RBI's while hitting 50 home runs a better player than the 9th
>hitter that bunts 11 players into eventual game-winning scoring position?

Well, you haven't really told me anything about either player.  Do those 50
HR come with the usual complement of other hits, or were they the only 50
hits he got all year?  Is the 9th-place hitter batting 9th because he hits
.197?

At any rate, why should I care about the GWRBIs and eventual scoring positions?
It's not the first player's fault that his HR were hit at bad times.  We've
been over this before: there is zero evidence that any player can control the
timing of his HR at all.  They come when they come, and if they're all solo
shots then that's just bad luck.

>Which player has done more to help his team win?  

The one who hit 50 HR, most likely.  Bunts only help win 1-run games, and 
1-run games are decided mostly by chance.


-- 
        David Tate         |   When I was a rookie arm and bit 
  dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu  |   And the greenest hurler to take the mound
  Prof. of Story Problems  |   (Sighed the old southpaw, dying of innings)...
  Member ORSA, TIMS, SABR  | 	"Lament", Dylan 'Big Frank' Thomas
From: IO20456@MAINE.MAINE.EDU (Ryan Robbins)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: rule question
Date: 27 Jul 92 02:38:12 GMT
Organization: University of Maine System

FILE: IO20456  NETPOST  A1                VM/ESA Conversational Monitor System
PAGE 00001


Organization: University of Maine System
Date: Thursday, 23 Jul 1992 01:21:54 EDT
From: Ryan Robbins <IO20456@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: rule question
References:
 <1992Jul21.035145.28752@athena.mit.edu>,<1992Jul21.062821.13648@menudo.uh.edu>
 <1992Jul21.075820.16851@honte.uleth.ca>

Contrary to popular belief, there is no such rule that prohobits
a batter from switching sides of the plate - so long as he does
so when the pitcher is not in position ready to pitch. A batter
can move back and forth as long as he likes in an at bat.

+===============================================================+
||   RYAN ROBBINS                    INTERNET:                 ||
||   UNIVERSITY OF MAINE             IO20456@MAINE.MAINE.EDU   ||
+===============================================================+
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu (Harold_Brooks)
Subject: Re: RP/PA for AL and NL (More bogus RP stats)
Organization: NSSL
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 14:51:55 GMT

In article <BrrqEL.3K7@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> djohnson@cayley.waterloo.edu (David Johnson) writes:
[Discussion about (R+RBI)/(Team runs scored) as measure of player deleted]
> 
>In most lineups a player is going to be used where he can best help his
>team score runs.  Whether this is at the start of the lineup if the play has
>high on base percentage or in the middle of the order if he has some power.
>This stat shows how effective the player was in helping the team produce
>runs.  If you wish this may be more effective to compare leadoff hitters
>with others leadoff hitters and cleanup hitters with other cleanup hitters
>etc. and i never said it was the perfect stat but RBI's and Runs depend
>too much on the players hitting around him.  If you have improvements I
>would love to hear them but if you just want to try and explain why it
>isn't a good stat without improving it or giving suggestions on how to 
>improve it then just say you don't like it and leave the discussion about
>it.

You aren't going to love to hear this, but I don't understand how you can
take two numbers that "depend too much on the players hitting around him"
and convolve them in any way to produce something that doesn't depend
on the players around him.  To improve it, I wouldn't use Runs and RBIs,
but then you wouldn't have anything left.  As it is, the no. 3 and 4 
hitters in any (rational) batting order will probably rank high in what
you come up with, followed by 2 and 5, and 1 and 6.  

Harold
-- 
Harold Brooks (NSSL, Norman, OK) hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu
Officially self-employed, self-speaking
Andres Galarraga (Through 21 July)  .194 BA  .286 SLG  .234 OBA
27 H away from .300  6 HBP  3 BB
From: cubbie@garnet.berkeley.edu (   )
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Shoot Harry
Date: 23 Jul 1992 00:53:27 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu



Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: hout@eastham.Berkeley.EDU (dave hout)
Subject: Re: Both Canadian teams in first place
Reply-To: hout@eastham.Berkeley.EDU (dave hout)
Organization: Bull HN Informations Systems Inc.
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 19:17:21 GMT

|> 
|> Woah. Hang on... "that the Expos will be playing in Florida by the end of
|> the milennium" ??!! When will people give up on this ridiculous,
|> outdated comment? Fine. The fans in Montreal may be fair weather fans, but
|> when the team does do well and *is* exciting, along they come. Last
|> week, the team was attracting crowds of 40K+... meanwhile, the "true"
|> major-league city of St. Louis (their competition for second place at the
|> time) was attracting "paltry" crowds of 28,000. 
|> 

I agree.  I've been an avid fan of the Expos since the Gary Carter part 1 and 
Andre Dawson days.  I finally got up there to see them play this past weekend 
against the Dodgers and I must say I was very surprised by the fan support as 
well as the baseball knowledge of the crowd.

I think that most teams have a large percentage of fair weather fans, except 
for the Red Sox of course,  and right now the weather is good in Montreal.  
I've always hoped that the Expos would get out of town because of lack of 
support and the fact that nobody wants to play there.  However, they have 
drawn more than 2 million fans several years in the past.  People just want 
a good, exciting team.

This was my first venture outside of Fenway Park, so the astroturf, lame mascot, 
and hot ball girls were a bit of an adjustment but when it got right down to it, 
the place had 40,000 + fans who were really into the game.  When they posted that 
the Pirates had lost during Saturday night's game, it was as loud as I've heard a 
crowd, only topped by the noise when they won in the bottom of the ninth on Sunday.

Go Expos!!

Dave

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dave Hout
hout@eastham.ma30.bull.com		"He beat him like a rented mule."
508-294-2307					
Bull Worldwide Information Systems
300 Concord Rd. Billerica MA 01821 
MA30/850A
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: djohnson@cayley.uwaterloo.ca (David Johnson)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Value of Stats
Date: 27 Jul 92 18:53:07 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Waterloo

In article <3678@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> dtate+@pitt.edu (David M Tate) writes:
>In article <BrwHpK.45L@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> djohnson@cayley.waterloo.edu (David Johnson) writes:
>>
>>You are probably right that nobody gets along with everybody but there are
>>many people who never create problems when this occurs.
>
>HOW DO YOU KNOW?
>
>This is the third time I've asked this question, and you've ducked it every
>time.  If you *don't* know, just say so.

You can't know for sure but through interviews with players, managers and
that player himself, and through *many* media reports (although we should 
consider media bias's thats why we look at many reports) I feel we can get
a good reasonably accurate opinion of the player.

>-- 
>        David Tate         |  "Complacencies of the fungo, and late 
>  dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu  |   Infield and B.P. in a sunny field
>     "Sunday Afternoon"    |   [...]         mingle to dissipate
>  Wallace "Vern" Stevens   |   The holy hush of Pastime National..."
From: dtate+@pitt.edu (David M Tate)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: More All-<name> teams
Date: 23 Jul 92 03:35:35 GMT
Organization: Factors of Ys, Inc.

Here are the best all-same-first-name teams I could come up with.  Any
emendations or alternatives welcome.

C	Bob Boone		Joe Torre		Jim Sundberg
1B	Bob Allison		Ducky Medwick		Jimmie Foxx
2B	Bobby Grich		Joe Morgan		Nellie Fox 
3B	Bob Elliott		Arky Vaughan		Jimmy Collins
SS	Bobby Wallace		Joe Cronin		Jim Fregosi
LF	Bob Johnson		Joe Jackson		Jim Rice
CF	Bobby Bonds		Joe DiMaggio		Jimmy Sheckard
RF	Roberto Clemente	Jose Canseco		Jimmy Wynn
SP	Lefty Grove		Smokey Joe Wood		Jim Palmer
SP	Bob Gibson		Iron Man McGinnity	Catfish Hunter
SP	Bob Feller		Bullet Joe Bush		J.R. Richard
SP	Bob Friend		Joe Horlen		Jim Bunning
RP	Bob Stanley		Joe Page		Jim Brewer

-- 
        David Tate         |   When I was a rookie arm and bit 
  dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu  |   And the greenest hurler to take the mound
  Prof. of Story Problems  |   (Sighed the old southpaw, dying of innings)...
  Member ORSA, TIMS, SABR  | 	"Lament", Dylan 'Big Frank' Thomas
From: erude@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Erick Rudiak)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Carry-isms (was Re: Shoot Harry)
Date: 27 Jul 92 18:13:06 GMT
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston Illinois.


	I forgot to mention the other classic Harry-ism.  The first was
"Buck" Henry.  The other is that he had him pitching for the "Texas
Astros."  Funny thing is that some people who called up local sports talk
shows also noticed it and kept saying how much fun it was to listen to
Harry because of things like this.  I found it funny for a while.  I used
to think it was funny how, when Harry "sings" Take Me Out To The Ball Game,
he points his microphone towards the crowd (so that maybe they'll be able
to hear themselves through the PA), but it gets tiresome after a while.  
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: twap8@isuvax.iastate.edu (Mike McNarney)
Subject: Iowa Cubs notes (was Re: Turk Wendell)
Reply-To: twap8@isuvax.iastate.edu
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 13:20:26 GMT

It has been brought to my attention that I misstated who was traded
for current Iowa Cubs outfielder Scott Bryant. I said it was Earl
Cunningham, when it really was Ty Griffin. In my defense: they are
both #1 picks, and, well, they both suck. I promise to double-check
in the future.

And if you care, the Iowa Cubs won AGAIN last night... now just a 
22-game winning streak from .500.

-Mike. 

---------------------
Mike McNarney
twap8@isuvax.bitnet
Iowa State University, USENET censors
Ames, Iowa 50013-0007
From: demers@cs.ucsd.edu (David DeMers)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Cangelosi update
Date: 22 Jul 92 23:13:02 GMT
Organization: =CSE Dept., U.C. San Diego

In article <1992Jul22.053343.20183@menudo.uh.edu> st1ge@Rosie.UH.EDU writes:
>In article <1992Jul21.230600.25733@midway.uchicago.edu>, clmn@ellis.uchicago.edu (Bill Coleman) writes:

>   [earlier stuffs deleted]

>>Well, since I've always been in love with Cangelosi, let me suggest that the
>>White Sox might consider his pitching prowess, given our well-publicized
>>difficulties with Thigpen and Radinsky.  This is assuming, of course, that
>>Doug Dascenzo isn't available!

>      That brings me up a question:  There were a lot of position players
>who would pitched an inning or two in those blowout games in past seasons.
>I cannot recall anyone doing this yet this season.  Am I right?

Gary Sheffield claims he wants to pitch, even in a critical game
situation, sometime.  He's been clocked at 93mph.  Doesn't
look like his arm is that strong to me, but I don't have a
Juggs gun...

Dave


-- 
Dave DeMers			 ddemers@UCSD   demers@cs.ucsd.edu
Computer Science & Engineering	C-014		demers%cs@ucsd.bitnet
UC San Diego					...!ucsd!cs!demers
La Jolla, CA 92093-0114	(619) 534-0688, or -8187, FAX: (619) 534-7029
From: U58578@uicvm.uic.edu (Mark Czarnowski)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: 0
Date: 28 Jul 92 18:39:55 GMT
Article-I.D.: uicvm.92210.133955U58578
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago

0
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball