HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: wkb@cblph.att.com (William K Brummett)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: AR15 info & purchase info wanted
Date: 1 Jan 93 14:38:45 GMT
Organization: AT&T


    In article <1992Dec30.201402.10505@mcs.kent.edu>, sscott@mcs.kent.edu
    (Stephen Scott) writes:
    > I too am in the market for an AR15 (H-BAR .223) for target play and
    > have heard some comments regarding different makes / models.  I would
    > like to hear some others opinions / information regarding the AR15. 
    > Also any information on other manufacturer's models.

    Take a look at the Quality Parts XM15-E2 models.  I've heard nothing but
    good things about them, and will probably order one soon.  You can
    choose from a variety of configurations in stocks, barrels, etc.

    > R6222		.22LR conversion kit for .223 sporter
    > $160		contains conversion kit and one 10 round .22 magazine.
    > %(my comment) I would like to use for short range shooting and for
    > teaching others how to shoot.  Of course not to mention the low cost.
    > Does anyone know of sources for additional .22 magazines for this
    > conversion kit - I have been unable to locate any sources?

    Quality Parts sells its own conversion kit, as well as additional *30*
    round mags for the Colt kit.  The Colt mags are kinda' pricey, though:
    $39.95.  Extra 30-rd mags for the $140 QP kit are $29.95.

	Quality Parts Co.
	999 Roosevelt Trail, Building 3
	Windham, Maine 04062

	(207) 892-2005
	catalog $2


    -- Keith

-- 
    | (614) 860-3187         Copyright (C) 1992, by       AT&T, Room 3B202 |
    | att!cblph!wkb  or,     W.K. Brummett and AT&T      6200 E. Broad St. |
    | wkb@cblph.att.com       All rights reserved.      Columbus, OH 43213 |
    `----------------------------------------------------------------------'
From: osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Stupid question time revisited...
Date: 31 Dec 92 01:26:06 GMT
Organization: Twilight Zone

First of all I would like to thank all the folks who responded to my
questions on velocity limits in large and small guns.

WRT high MV in big guns (i.e. artillery)  I was not aware that most pieces
have rather low velocities.  I pulled the 10K fps MV off the top of head,
but ths was based on a few bits and pieces that I had picked up from various
places.  The Germans had the "High Pressure Pump" gun in Calais that spewed
projectiles (15 cm, if I remember correctly) at better than 5000 fps at the
muzzle.  I had read somewhere that the so-called "superguns" designed by
Gerold (sp??) Bull were even faster at the muzzle.  This is what prompted
my curiosity.

At any rate, I have been pretty much set straight on several points and have 
been pointed in the direction of some well recommended reading.  Again, thanks
very much to you all for abiding my sorrowful ignorance and providing me with
some very enlightening information.

	-Andy V.
From: hes@ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: re: Case Capacity of Mag. vs. Spl.
Date: 23 Dec 92 03:35:42 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University


  A couple of postings have pointed out that the .44 Mag.
case has more capacity than does the .44 Spl case.  While
this is true, it might not be true when the entire situation
is considered.  This also applies to the .357 Mag vs .38 Spl
cases.

  Here are some specs (taken from the Lyman 47th ed Manual)

Caliber    Case Length    Max. OAL (lengths in inches)
.44 Mag     1.285          1.610
.44 Spl     1.16           1.615

.357Mag     1.290          1.590
.38 Spl     1.155          1.55

Note that for each pair there is a substantial difference in
case length, but basically no difference in max. overall length.
If the two cartridges are loaded, with the same bullet, to the
same overall length - then the case volume *below the bullet*
will be the same.  I claim that it is this below the bullet volume
which is relevant to internal ballistics, pressures, etc.  The
difference between the two cases will be the depth (relative to the
case mouth) to which the bullet will be seated (it will be deeper
in the Mag. case.)

  If the bullets are seated so that the resulting overall lengths
of the two rounds are different, then there will be different
below the bullet volumes in the two.  But loading to the same
overall length eliminates this difference.  I find it strange that
the Speer #11 manual doesn't give OAL's.

  Therefore I don't see any difference resulting from the
different case lengths, and it would appear that any load
safe in the Spl. should be equally safe in the Mag.  Am I
missing something?

--henry schaffer
From: tighe@convex.COM (Mike Tighe)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: MAC10 - Open bolt v. closed bolt
Date: 22 Dec 92 00:00:30 GMT
Organization: Convex Computer Corporation, Richardson, Texas

C08926RC@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu writes:

#I had thought that they placed open-bolt MAC-10s under the NFA, with the $200
#tax and background check.  I get the impression from the original post that
#this is not the case, and open-bolt semi-autos, while no longer manufactured,
#can still be bought without the additional restrictions (albeit at an inflated
#price).  Is this the case?

Correct. BATF halted production of them (as well as the open-bolt KG-9),
but the ones in existence are still considered semi-auto pistols. A few
years ago NJ tried to get them classified as Class III, but that effort
failed. I saw one at a gun show yesterday for $699 (RPB M10, .45).
-- 
Mike Tighe, (214) 497-4206
tighe@convex.com
From: dnewcomb@whale.st.usm.edu (Donald R. Newcomb)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Info on Case and Neck Turning with Forster Trimmer Requested
Date: 29 Dec 92 19:02:32 GMT
Organization: University of Southern Mississippi

In article <withrow.15.0@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov> withrow@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov (Jim Withrow) writes:
#I am considering purchase of a Forster Trimmer and was wondering if any of 
#the rec.guns netters had any experience with it.

I would like to open the thread up a bit. I'm interested in turning the
necks on my rifle brass and would appreciate opinons on what to buy. I
have been using the Lee trimmer for length so I don't have anything
invested in a bench trimmer. I have seen catalog listings for bench
trimmers with neck turning attachments made by a number of firms. I
have also seen hand tools that do just the one job of neck turning.
I'm not sure of the advantages and disadvantages of each.

-- 

Donald R. Newcomb                * Life only admits two states: 
dnewcomb@whale.st.usm.edu        * growing and dying. So what,
newcomb@usmcp6.bitnet            * if I've put on a little weight?
From: bbx!bbxrbk!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Russ Kepler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Shotshell reloader advice?
Date: 27 Dec 92 12:34:04 GMT
Organization: russ at home in Albuquerque New Mexico

My wife was kind enough to give me a rather nice shotgun for Christmas
(a Beretta Onyx 686 - nice wife, eh?) and I'm now in the market for a
shotshell reloader.  I currently reload on a Dillon 550B and Square
Deal, and am leaning towards a progressive (or semi-auto) reloader.

Looking around in the catalogs I can see MEC, Lee and Hornady.  The
MEC Grabber and Hornady 366 look about equiv, but the Lee line doesn't
seem to have a progressive.  I can't find a reference to the
Ponsness-Warren, but I recall it as being a fine loader - any
references and prices out there?  Any shotshell loaders I've missed?  (I
haven't called Dillon yet - but didn't think that they were on the verge
of release of theirs).

I'll be using mostly Federal AA hulls, likely 700X and will be
producing 2 3/4" target loads.

-- 
Russ Kepler, posting from home   russ@bbx.basis.com, bbxrbk!russ@bbx.basis.com
Will hack unix for food
From: schuette@roadkill.nrl.navy.mil (Larry Schuette)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: pet loads for 223
Date: 29 Dec 92 19:01:32 GMT


I'm getting ready to purchase the powder/primers/ and bullets for my
.223 caliber reloading exercises.  Since the Winchester 55 grain FMJ 
is only 3.5 cents per (lots of 1K) it is the likely choice of bullet.
Does anyone have strong feelings (of course you do) with respect to 
powder and primer selection?  Since this is for a Colt Sporter
(20" barrel), I'm interested in what other AR-15 shooters are using.

Thanks,
Larry
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
	"I forced him to land ..., but it was Christmas Eve, so I let 
	    him go.  Besides, who would believe a Beagle could fly" 
							B.M. Richtofen 

Lawrence C. Schuette			  schuette@roadkill.nrl.navy.mil
Code 7133				  (202)767-2739  
Naval Research Laboratory		  (202)767-5561 (fax) 	
Washington D.C.	20375-5350
From: cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (Chris Luchini)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: re: Case Capacity of Mag. vs. Spl.
Date: 23 Dec 92 17:17:29 GMT
Organization: High Energy Physics, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign

In article <1992Dec23.024048.9044@ncsu.edu>, hes@ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer) writes:
#
#  A couple of postings have pointed out that the .44 Mag.
#case has more capacity than does the .44 Spl case.  While
#this is true, it might not be true when the entire situation
#is considered.  This also applies to the .357 Mag vs .38 Spl
#cases.
[snip....]
#  Therefore I don't see any difference resulting from the
#different case lengths, and it would appear that any load
#safe in the Spl. should be equally safe in the Mag.  Am I
#missing something?
#

	1) the Mag case has thicker walls and head, and thus
	less case capacity.... [-]
	2) the Mag cylinder is ~.2 longer, so even if the OAL
	is the same, the bullet from the mag will have that 
	much more to travel before it hits the barrel swaging
	cone and the pressurs start to climb. It could be
	that the pressures drop so low that your risk getting
	a bullet stuck in the barrel throat. Then again, the 
	bullet slowing to a stop in the barrel throat, and then
	producing a pressure jump is a possiblity. If this is
	true, I'd expect to see warnings about shooting
	specials in mag chambers. 

	3) [my most likely canidate] Simple paranoia on the 
	authors part. There are these persistant stories about
	powder detonation, and I think they are covering their
	ass.

	BTW I seem to remember that Ed Harris _may_ have mentioned
	that detonation has finally been seen in the lab. I'll as
	him and post on the response...
-c
*1110 W. Green/Urbana IL 61801/217-333-0505/cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu
From: jrh@mustang.dell.com (Randy Howard)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: light .44 Magnum loads?
Date: 22 Dec 92 15:06:05 GMT
Organization: Dell Computer Co

weed@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov (daniel weed 283-4162) writes:
#I don't understand something I read in my re-loading manuals.  I want to
#load up some .44 Special class loads in .44 Magnum cases for target
#practice, using jacketed bullets.

#Looking through the Speer and Sierra reloading manuals, I read NOT to load
#44 magnum jacketed bullets lighter than the minimum recommended load.
#For example, a 240 gr jacketed bullet can be loaded to around 10.5 to 11.5 gr
#of W-231, but no less.  But looking at the same bullet in the 44 Special 
#loading, it is backed up by around 6 gr of W-231.

#So if I can load it with 6 gr in a .44 Special case, why can't I load the 
#same bullet with 6 gr in a .44 magnum case?

#The same warnings exist for 38 Special/357 Magnum loading data.


First of all, I don't know diddly about reloading (yet)... but, I would think
the most logical 'guess' would be that it is because the pressure is higher
in the special cases because of the smaller volume.  This would seem to allow
the use of less powder for about the same effect as the higher loads in the
larger magnum casings.  If I am wrong, I am convinced I'll get flamed for it
endlessly.. :)


-- 
Randy Howard            _o	    @'s: jrh@dell.com
Dell Computer Corp.     \<,	    !'s: ...!uunet!dellunix!jrh
______________________()/ ()______________________________________________
From: callison@essex.ecn.uoknor.edu (James P. Callison)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Glock profit margins slim:  Retail below wholsale?
Date: 24 Dec 92 18:40:16 GMT
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA

In article <1h8rc7INNcdr@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bz269@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (James D. Del Vecchio) writes:
#
#It always seems like Glock is a gun I can't make any money selling.

...nah. That one's _too_ easy. ;-)

#I saw today in a sporting goods store, a new Glock .45 for $425,
#when $430 is the best I've seen from any wholesalers.
#Some G19s and 17s were going for $399, when $395 is the best I've
#seen wholesale.
#How can anyone make any money at this rate?  It seems impossible.
#	The only answer that makes any sense, is that Glock, or 
#their distributers, offer steep discounts for volume.  

Bingo!
Volume sales, m'boy, volume sales. It works that way no matter what
you're selling. If you get a volume rating from the factory, you get
a lower wholesale price because, while you're not making as much money
at a pop, you're moving more of the merchandise.

Which is why the crappiest gun stores have the lowest prices...

				James

James P. Callison       Microcomputer Coordinator        OU Law Library 
Callison@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu   /\    Callison@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu
	constellation!biglaw!callison@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu
DISCLAIMER: I'm not an engineer, but I play one at work...
	"God didn't make men and women equal. Colonel Colt did."
			--Maggie Zombro, "Reasonable Doubts"
From: callison@essex.ecn.uoknor.edu (James P. Callison)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: ... high capacity autoloader and other info
Date: 30 Dec 92 16:07:37 GMT
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA

In article <1992Dec29.153310.15897@ncsu.edu> hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer) writes:
#In article <1992Dec28.165357.28716@samba.oit.unc.edu> Harry.Johnson@lambada.oit.unc.edu (Harry Johnson) writes:
##So, then, given these constraints:  intended use of defense, high capacity
##(>15 rounds), price <$650 or $700, which gun should I shop for and why? 
#
#  IMHO "defense" implies a need for 9mm or greater.  The ">15 rounds"
#knocks out most everything greater than 9mm and also knocks out just
#about all the 9mm except for the Glock 17 and the pistols which 
#look like a cut-down subgun (is there a better way to describe the
#"ugly" :-) pistols such as the H&K SP89, the Intratec and the Uzi?)
#(Any of the magazine fed pistols can theoretically have a 
#magazine >15 rounds, but I'm thinking of the normal configurations.)
#The price constraint knocks out the H&K.  So there are very few
#choices.

Go for the SIG P226 or the Beretta Model 92FS/G/D. They're below the $700
range, and at 15+1 capacity, fit your constraints. They're well-made,
reasonably accurate (or, in the SIG's case, exceptionally accurate),
extremely reliable (never had a Beretta jam on me yet; my SIG feeds
empty shells reliably), and both have excellent ergonomics. The 
Beretta definitely has the initial edge if you're a southpaw, although
you can overcome the fact that the SIG's controls are all situated for use
by the right thumb.
You can also get extended-length magazines for these pistols (SIG has
factory mags in 20-rnd and (supposedly) 30-rnd capacities).
Short rundown:
	SIG P226:
		15+1 double-stack full-size 9mm
		DA first-shot, SA subsequent shots
		No external safety; thumb-operated decocker
		Reversible magazine release
	Beretta Model 92FS:
		15+1 double-stack full-size 9mm
		DA/SA action
		Slide-mounted ambidextrous hammer-drop safety
		Mag release reversible with only screwdriver to remove
			grip panels
	Beretta Model 92G:
		Same as 92FS, but no external safety, slide-mounted
			ambidextrous decocker
	Beretta Model 92D:
		Same as 92FS, but no external safety, DAO action

				James

James P. Callison       Microcomputer Coordinator        OU Law Library 
Callison@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu   /\    Callison@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu
	constellation!biglaw!callison@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu
DISCLAIMER: I'm not an engineer, but I play one at work...
	"God didn't make men and women equal. Colonel Colt did."
			--Maggie Zombro, "Reasonable Doubts"
From: jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Saved by the gun
Date: 3 Jan 93 03:38:24 GMT
Organization: Dixie Communications Public Access.  The Mouth of the South.

jmd@cube.handheld.com (Jim De Arras) writes:

## backs on the owner, he pulled what looked like a 9 mm automatic and 
#  ^^^^^
## killed all 4.  He appeared to know what he was doing, discharging 6
## shots in a little over 3 seconds.  

#I have a problem with this, at least as presented here.  If they were leaving, 
#I do not personally feel deadly force was needed at the point they turned 
#thier  backs.  Unless the fact that they were mexican made them fair game.

That fact that they were robbers made them fair game, of course.  They were
not turning to leave, not that it matters.  The store owner saved
society the expense of trying and incarcerating the punks and probably
put an early end to a crime spree.  Good shootin' in my book.

## He fell asleep after raping the woman.  She got loose from her chains,
## got his gun and killed him.  Police say there will be no charges filed.
## 

#I guess stress and shock were in play, here, but again, on the surface, she  
#should not have shot and killed him if she apparently had the chance to leave.   

Of course she should have killed him.  If it takes claiming stress and 
shock to slip past the system (not necessary here but in some places,
apparently), so be it.  The fact remains that she killed a rapist in the
act and again saved us the expence of jailing him and then letting 
him out to do it again.  

John
-- 
John De Armond, WD4OQC               |Interested in high performance mobility?  
Performance Engineering Magazine(TM) | Interested in high tech and computers? 
Marietta, Ga                         | Send ur snail-mail address to 
jgd@dixie.com                        | perform@dixie.com for a free sample mag
Need Usenet public Access in Atlanta?  Write Me for info on Dixie.com.
From: schuette@roadkill.nrl.navy.mil (Larry Schuette)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: fire-forming brass
Date: 22 Dec 92 00:00:51 GMT


Well, I fire formed my first new brass for my 30-348 Winchester.
I formed 10 rounds at lunch, with less than .001" expansion of the
case at the rim.  It certainly puts a nice Ackley shoulder on the
case.  I ended up using (per Ackley), a standard load, which
in my case is 58.5 grains of IMR 4831 pushing a 150 grain bullet.

This round is a .348 Winchester that is necked down to .348.  It is
roughly equiv. to a 30-06, but with a case that is shorter and wider.

Thanks to all the netters who offered advice and encouragement.

Larry
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
	"I forced him to land ..., but it was Christmas Eve, so I let 
	    him go.  Besides, who would believe a Beagle could fly" 
							B.M. Richtofen 

Lawrence C. Schuette			  schuette@roadkill.nrl.navy.mil
Code 7133				  (202)767-2739  
Naval Research Laboratory		  (202)767-5561 (fax) 	
Washington D.C.	20375-5350
From: cccbbs!bill.preuss@uceng.uc.EDU (Bill Preuss)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: ARMOR PIERCING PISTOL
Date: 29 Dec 92 19:02:35 GMT
Organization: Cincinnati Computer Connection BBS - Cincinnati, OH - 513-752-8248

I am looking for information on armor piercing pistol ammo.  Would
appreciate any info or reference material.  Thanks,
Bill Preuss

cccbbs!bill.preuss@uceng.UC.EDU (Bill Preuss)
From: scot@hpfcla.fc.hp.com (Scot Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Mossberg 500 12 gauge
Date: 29 Dec 92 19:01:44 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Fort Collins Site

Clean those guns.

As with any firearm, powder residue, boh burned and unburned, can collect
moisture and cause rust on internal action parts as well as in the bore.

In addition, modern plastic shot shells exude water when fired.  It is
vital to wipe the chamber out with some sort of oil immediately after you
are done firing before you transport your gun home.  I have the rusty
chambers to prove this is necessary.  Clean your barrels after each time
you shoot.

Here's how to get a bright-as-a-mirror shine in those bores:

1) Get a 36" cleaning rod, either one piece or made up of 2 of the 3
section kinds you can get anywhere.  I prefer 2 of the 3 section kinds
because having 2 handle sections is handy.

2) Remove the actual handle from the rod and chuck it up in a variable
speed drill.  Put a phosphore-bronze (NOT STAINLESS) brush on the end and
dip it in your favorite goo (mine is Shooter's Choice).

3) Insert the brush into the chamber end of the barrel and run the drill at
a medium to slow speed.  I estimate around 200-400 rpm.  While the brush is
turning, run it up and down the barrel 5-10 times depending upon the amount
of plastic wad fouling (those nasty streaks).  Pay special attention to the
choke and forcing cone areas as this is where the wads are under the most
stress and foul the worst.

4) Run dry patches thru to your heart's content.  I usually make 5 passes.
I use a contraption I built that you can now buy from some shotgun
specialty shops which is an expandable jag.  I built mine from a 5/16"
bolt, nut and some 1/2" rubber fuel line.  I expand the jag just enough to
cause a fairly tight fit through the choke.  This acts as a sort of squeege
and really speads up the patch process.

5) Repeat 4) with an oily patch.

If this isn't the cleanest you've ever seen your barrel, I'll eat my hat.

One tip:  Cut a spent target shell off just above the brass.  Push out the
primer and drill out the primer pocket big enough to slip over the cleaning
rod you bought.  When you are running the rod in the drill, insert the
shell base over the rod before putting the brush on.  Now put the brush
into the chamber and then insert the shell base into the chamber breach end
to act as a bushing, it keeps you from rugging the sides of the chamber
with the spinning rod.

Another tip:  I had one of those worthless drills that has a 6" cord so I
clamped it to my reloading bench, added a foot switch and now I have a
handy power metalic case trimmer (via the Lee system) and great shotgun
cleaning setup.

When I was shooting a pump in competition, I pulled the trigger group and
bolt after every 500 shells or so to clean out the residue.  I cleaned the
bolt face and lightly oiled the exposed bolt surface every time I shot.

Hope this helps.

-Scot
From: hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Info wanted: .22 cal. pistols
Date: 22 Dec 92 00:00:00 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University

In article <1992Dec21.130152.22828@fccc.edu> reber@ceres.rm.fccc.edu (John Reber) writes:
# ...
#The Government is very well made, and balanced, and is my second choice behind
#the Browning...he Mark 1 Target shoots just as well as the Government for me,
#but one thing i don't like about it is that the slide doesn't lock back after 
#the last shot...

  The Ruger Mark II does lock back after the last shot.  I've never shot
a Mark I.

--henry schaffer
From: hays@SSD.intel.com (Kirk Hays)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Cheap case cleaner?
Date: 22 Dec 92 00:00:53 GMT
Organization: Intel Supercomputer Systems Division

In article <9212202232.AA22838@ddssuprs>, ddssuprs!doug@uunet.UU.NET (Doug McNash) writes:

|> The above method is
|> the only way I know of removing the asphaltic seal applied to 
|> military cases.

Oh, there's one I hadn't seen in a while.

Get a can of that nasty brown stuff they call "carburator cleaner" - it comes in
paint-can-style cans.  Do not confuse this with "spray carburator cleaner", a
different, less noxious substance.

"Carburator cleaner" will dissolve/destroy/remove any carbon-based compound, in
my experience, i.e., I've never found anything organic it won't remove.  It won't
harm brass, but I seem to recall some brands will eat aluminum.

Nasty, *nasty* stuff - keep it off the linoleum, and out of the watershed.

I seem to recall John DeArmond uses it to clean guns...

--
Kirk Hays - NRA Life.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing."  -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)