HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gjm11@cus.cam.ac.uk (G.J. McCaughan)
Subject: Re:      Re: The Gospel
Organization: U of Cambridge, England
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 16:21:20 GMT

In article <CHRISTIA%92111307255199@ASUACAD.BITNET> "Jesse (laughing all day) Carnes" <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET> writes:

>A question : "How do you KNOW that my interpretation is allegedly private
>rather than in agreement with the Scriptures?"
>
>Second, if you read the Scriptures and STILL agree with Rome, then either you
>have not read what Rome REALLY teaches in their OFFICIAL stuff vs. what you
>get in your perishchurch, OR your hermeneutics are coloured by Rome's
>presuppositions, in my opinion.  You might be bending the Scriptures around
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                               \ which is not authoritative.
>your Romish presuppositions.



-- 
Gareth McCaughan     Dept. of Pure Mathematics & Mathematical Statistics,
gjm11@cus.cam.ac.uk  Cambridge University, England.    [Research student]
From: Lubosh <Lubosh.Hanuska@anu.edu.au>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Winners....
Date: 8 Nov 1992 02:46:00 GMT
Organization: ANU Canberra
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In article <921104.08170866.048528@USM.CP6> THERESA BLACKWELL,
TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET writes:
>All I know is that Bush wasn't afraid to stand for Christ.
>This is cool.
>I only hope that Mr. Clinton will lean on Jesus too...
Dear Theresa,
you had the point with George Bush, but probably he wasn't really all
that much keen to take the office for the next four years. To me his 38 %
of popular vote shows a good support for traditional Christian ideas in a
secularized country as US these days is - and let's face it, the world is
stronger in politics ... I am a bit sceptical about Clinton's firm stand
on Christian principles, but it shouldn't affect your nephew's first
steps to school. My little nephew will start going to school in Denamark
- one of the most difficult countries when it comes to Christianity, and
I am sure that wherever he is Lord will take care of him...
Anyway, it's easy for me, there's no president overhere :-) But think
about the kings, emperors  and governors early Christians had in Rome. I
know you'll be brave, whoever is in the office.
JESUS REIGNS !!!
Lubosh
From: JHART@UMASSD.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Trinity...
Date: 6 Nov 92 02:46:00 GMT
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"G" says:

>John,
>Remember that the Trinity means that the three are one.
>God the Father
>God the Son
>God the Holy Spirit...
>Omnipresent, and Omnimpotent in all things.
>Everywhere all the time.
>He (Jesus) was with God when the World was formed.
>"Let us create man in our own image..."  (Gen. 1...)
>Hope this answered your question.

Nope! :-)
If the Three are One, why was it necessary for Him to receive the
Holy Spirit at His baptism?  How can you receive what you already
have, if indeed you do have it?

>I hope this doesn't open a can of worms, gang.  That's just how
>I've understood it all these years.

>MHO, I promise.

I believe you, honest! :-))

JH
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 08:54:16 CST
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Point to Eric.
              11 Nov 1992 08:59:30 -0500 from <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>

Eric ;

Well, if God is not in control ... WHO or WHAT IS????

Think about it for a moment, Eric.


Jesse
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 11:31:26 EDT
From:         "Roger A. Phyall" <ROGER@TEMPLEVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: The Trinity

Yes, John (and the rest):

     It's pretty clear the dove was a sign to identify Jesus.  And if there
remained any doubts how about what the voice of God spoke?  But I don't read
St. John the same as you're saying here.  We know the "WORD" spoken of here
is Jesus Christ, the Son.  But when we follow the little boy Jesus, where is
the evidence of the presence of the Holy Spirit at that time in the earthly
life of Christ?  And let's not forget that as flesh/man Jesus did have a will
of His own (refer to prayer at Gethsemane).  Therefore, I contend that along
with being a sign, Jesus did in fact receive the Holy Spirit AT THIS TIME &
not before within His earthly years.

     That answers your question as:  NO! Jesus did not have the Holy Spirit
before the descent of the dove at His baptistism.  And I furthur contend that
this was the introduction of the Holy Spirit into the Trinity.  If there be
earlier accounts in the Scriptures please so inform me & edify me.

|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
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| Temple University (038-15) |                                  |
| Computer/Math Bldg. Rm 851 |         Roger A. Phyall          |
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 14:12:22 -0500
From:         Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: Whose will is dominant?

Excerpts from christia: 11-Nov-92 Whose will is dominant?
"DRCV06::GRAHAM"@DRCVAX. (1184)

> Speaking only of salvation, why on earth do you want a choice?  I have
> asked this question before, but didn't see any forthcoming answers.  To
> those of you who believe that you have the option to choose or reject
> God, why do you want it so?  It seems to me that, if you are born again,
> you ought to be falling down thankful to God for His sovereign grace
> that freed you from the inextricable bondage of sin.

I want to be able to choose God or not because love cannot exist in the
absence of free will. I refuse to believe that man is a mere automaton,
like a computer, with no choice in the matter. A being without free will
cannot love any more than a computer or animal can love.

Do you believe, Dan, that angels and demons have free will?

> In the final analysis, if the death of Christ only makes possible the
> choice for salvation, then the chooser is saving himself.  Why not let God
> be sovereign and allow Him to choose whom He will?  Of course, He will
> whether you like it or not, but why not quit fighting the idea.

You've misunderstood St. Paul if you think that we save ourselves if we
choose to turn towards God.  That is only a matter of your opinion.
Choosing God does not help us without the saving sacrifice of Christ,
and we cannot choose God without being enabled by the Holy Spirit.
Hence we are not saving ourselves.

Why not let God be sovereign?  Why should God WANT to control every
aspect of my life? What joy can God get from beings who cannot love him,
cannot choose him?  It's like having an arranged marriage.  Why should
God want to control the lives of the people he loves?

We cannot love God if we are compelled.  Love requires free choice.

Man was created as a being separate from the animals.  Man is a spirit
like the angels.  The angels have free will.  So did we, until we fell
and our free will was damaged.  If we had no free will, we would be no
different from the animals.

Eric
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Date:         Sat, 7 Nov 1992 19:50:57 EST
From:         "Michael A. Kline" <MKLINE@VDH.BITNET>
Subject:      Freedom Withheld

Albany, New York

A junior from South Albany High School stated that he has been forbidden
to end a school newsletter article with the words "God Bless." The
principal states that nothing can be printed in a school publication that
might appear to be religious in nature.

The school however does REQUIRE students to read "One Flew Over The
Cuckoo's Next;" a book which contains profanity and perversion, even the
gang-rape of a mentally disturbed man."

President Bush and Clinton end their speeches with "God Bless America"
but in schools no freedom of speech.

Maks
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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 22:15:00 -0400
From:         STYLESBG@WATT.CCS.TUNS.CA
Subject:      Re: Prayer request

Welcome to the family,  Andie.  Don't hesitate to ask questions and to send
in your prayer requests and also praise items.
Organization: Queen's University at Kingston
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 00:47:41 EDT
From: andy <2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: RE: A Vote For Morality

In article <CHRISTIA%92110920111143@ASUACAD.BITNET>, HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET (Love
does not subtract, it multiplies.) says:
>
><    John C. Wilke, MD issued a statement over the air in early August, on
><90 Joy radio. Dr. Wilke quoted a study by the Family Research Institute
><that compared the median age of death for different groups of Americans.
><
><                            Married Men - 75
><                           Unmarried Men - 57
><                           Homosexual Men - 42
><                        (reasons other than AIDS)
><                           Married Women - 79
><                          Unmarried Women - 71
><                              Lesbians - 45
>
>Could we have more info on where this study got it's information from?
>
><Homosexual men committed suicide 26 times more often and were murdered 87
><times more often than heterosexual men.
>
><Lesbians died 453 times more often by being murdered than
><heterosexual women. Lesbians committed suicide 932 times more frequently
><than heterosexual women and died 307 times more often from accidents.
>
>We need more of a breakdown of data here.
>
>What percentage of gay youth committing suicide (A study presented at a
>meeting
>of the Orthopsychiatric society several years ago showed that 20% of gays
>under
>the age of 20 killed themselves, with the rate dropping down to average after
>age 20) are doing so because of the stress of having to live in secret, or
>because of abuse at the hands of unsympathetic parents?  In other words,
>heterosexism and homophobia?
>
>What percentage of Lesbian and Gay murder victims are killed by gay-bashers.
>In other words, heterosexism and homophobia?
>
>
>
><    Didn't Moses say in Deuteronomy that the fruit of Sodom is "deadly
><poison?" Was it not in Proverbs.. "the years of the wicked are
><shortened?" Didn't Paul say in Romans that the sexually perverse "are
><paid in their own persons the fitting wage of such perversions?"
>
>Sounds like a self-fulfilling prophecy.  Set up a system in which Lesbians and
>Gays are under pressure from every angle, and then say that they cracked under
>the pressure because of their lifestyle.
>
>Dan

Just doing a cross-post, thought we might get some input from the people who
are being talked about.
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Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 16:35:57 -0700
From:         "(Steven E. Hoell)" <seh@NEUTRON.PHYSICS.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Armstrong on Salvation

>Something interesting I found in a book I'm reading about Herbert Armstrong.
>Here's a quote from Herbert Armstrong abou salvation:

>"Salvation then is a process but how the god of this world would blind your
>eyes to that!  He tries to deceive you into thinking all ther is to it is
>just accepting Christ with no works, and pesto changeover, you are
>pronounced saved!...But the Bible reveals that none is as yet saved...
>people have been taught falsely that Christ completed the plan of salvation
>on the cross when actually it was only begun there.  The popular
>denominations have taught just believe that's all there is to it, believe
>on the Lord jesus Christ and you are that instant saved.  That teaching
>is false...the blood of Christ does not finally save any man, the death of
>Christ merely paid the penalty of sin in our stead and wipes the slate
>clean of *past* sins...it is only those who during this Christian
>spirit-begotten life have grown in knowledge and grace, have overcome,
>have developed spititually, done the works of Christ and endured to the
>end who shall finally be given immortality, finally changed from mortal
>to immortal, at the time of the Second Coming of Christ.  So being, as
>we say, converted, receiving the Holy Spirit of God is merely the
>beginning!  Then begins a life long of living under the government of
>God by God's laws which expresses His will instead of by self-will and
>desire".

Armstrong is trying to take advantage of an incomplete (but largely
correct) view of salvation promulgated by various evangelists.

Early churches (whom Armstrong denounces) viewed salvation in three
stages: 1) Justification (Christ's work on the Cross) 2) Sanctification
(God's discipline in our lives) and 3) Glorification (our resurrection
at the end times). So in this sense Armstrong is correct that salvation
is a process. (This is a bit sloppy; I may have left something out.)

I suspect that Armstrong goes on to say that your salvation is sustained
by your works and your fidelity to Old Covanent law. This is incorrect;
each step of salvation is God's work and not ours.

Furthermore, his statement about Christ's death is incorrect. His
blood *keeps on* cleansing us (somewhere in 1 John).

>The author of the book credits the quote to three works by Armstrong,
>those being "Why Were You Born", "Lazarus and the Rich Man", and
>"All About Water Baptism".

Don't bother...

>All typos, of course, are mine.  Any comments (about the text, not the
>typos! :)  )

Steve Hoell                           | Hoarse, deaf, and nearly stampeded
seh@neutron.physics.arizona.edu       | after Saturday's game!
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Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 13:59:05 CST
From:         CCCHRIS@MIZZOU1.BITNET
Subject:      Woman

Of all places, I finally found that little ditty I mentioned on Christia a few
months back - about women.

The first woman was created from the rib of a man.
She was not made from his head to top him,
Nor from his feet to be trampled upon by him,
But out of his side, to be equal to him,
Under his arm, to be protected,
And near his heart, to be loved.  (author unknown)

Gee, I wish _I'd_ said that!  :-)

Chris Reed
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: gjm11@cus.cam.ac.uk (G.J. McCaughan)
Subject: Re:      Re: CHRIST, NOT PURGATORY
Organization: U of Cambridge, England
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 04:19:39 GMT

In article <CHRISTIA%92110507481092@ASUACAD.BITNET>,         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET> writes:

> I thought the Scriptures say that our bodies will be clothed over with
> immortality ... that our bodies will be redeemed and glorified as much as
> our spirits are NOW.
> 
> It is only in our bodies that the devil can get any foothold ... see Romans
> 7.  Actually, he attempts to work on our thoughts, but in this life, our mind's
> thoughts are implemented, as it were, through the "middle-man" of our brains.
> Our brain is a Physical part of our bodies and it is at this point that the
> devil works on the thoughts of our minds.
> 
> 
> 
> Rambling aside, the point is : If our bodies down here were as redeemed as our
> spirits, the devil could not touch us.
> When we stand before God, our bodies will be renewed, even as our spirits are
> and we will live in Heaven without the ability to sin, and we will love it and
> we will love the God who made it so.
> 
> 
> Any thoughts??

Yes; I agree with you, more or less. This is one reason why I don't think
we need any sort of purgatory. But note: when Paul talks about "flesh" he
doesn't mean quite the same as we do in talking about our "bodies"; the
NIV usually translates it as "sinful nature", which comes closer.

If you're saying that our spirits are even now made completely pure and
holy in Christ, then I'm sorry to have to tell you that you agree with
the Catholics, by the way. :-)

-- 
Gareth McCaughan     Dept. of Pure Mathematics & Mathematical Statistics,
gjm11@cus.cam.ac.uk  Cambridge University, England.    [Research student]
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Date:         Sun, 8 Nov 1992 01:13:00 -0400
From:         STYLESBG@WATT.CCS.TUNS.CA
Subject:      help in downloading messages from christia and sending from wp

I would like to learn how to download from Christia to a diskette and also how
would I send a message after having written and saving it in wp?  The Communs.
software I use to send messages thru my pc is Kermit.  Any help would be
appreciated.  Thanks.

Pastor Bill.  P.S.  May all of us have breakthroughs in praise and worship at
our local Churches today!!
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Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 10:32:30 -0500
From:         Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: RUSH - More Good News

Excerpts from christia: 9-Nov-92 Re: RUSH - More Good News G.J.
McCaughan@CUS.CAM.A (5601)

> Well, of course they are. And actually, I don't see why there should be
> any law forbidding homosexuals to serve in the armed forces. There are
> no laws forbidding liars, adulterers or gluttons to serve, for instance.

Actually adultery is ILLEGAL in the military (last time I checked) and
can bring court-martial, and so can lying (to the wrong person, at
least).

The military should be praised for upholding traditional morals and
ethics . . . punishment is much stricter in the military than in the
civilian world, and more things are acceptable in the civilian world.
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Date:         Fri, 13 Nov 1992 08:50:55 CST
From:         Tom Brewer <NOTTMB@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Whose will is dominant?
              12 Nov 1992 16:01:57 CST from <sweberg@GARFIELD.WES.ARMY.MIL>

On Thu, 12 Nov 1992 16:01:57 CST (Scott D. Weberg) said:

>Tom Brewer,
>
>John 6:37-39 is also a good choice of scripture for those who believe
>in predestiny.  HOWEVER the verse that most clearly refers to
>salvation is verse 40; "And this is the will of him that sent me,
>that EVERY ONE which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have
>everlasting life..."  This verse again suggests that EVERY ONE (ANY
>ONE, ALL WHO, THE WHOLE WORLD) who hears the gospel, not just a
>chosen few, may have everlasting life IF they meet the requirement,
>which is simply BELIEVING ON CHRIST.
>
SCOTT:
  Don't stop reading there. Keep on going and you can read that those who do
  come are able to do so ONLY if the Father first draws them. Take it in
  context.

  And please don't forget the earlier context of John 3 where Jesus tells
  Nicodemus that until a man is born again the man CANNOT see the Kingdom
  of God. In other words, in order to see the Son and believe in Him one
  must first be born again. God must first regenerate the dead sinner. A
  dead man sees nothing. The spiritually blind must first be given sight
  by the Great Physician.

>I think I was always taught that verse 39 was  saying that AFTER
>someone has been saved, it is God's will that he should never fall
>away -- it didn't refer to the actual act of salvation as much as
>"finishing the course" that we started in Christ.   I realize,
>though, that these verses could probably be interpreted either way.
>
>Scott

  Go back and finish the chapter and notice that the Father must first
  draw the sinner to Christ, "no man can come, except/unless."

  Concerning your earlier problem with Deut 30, once again take it in
  context. Moses is simply ratifying the covenant. God did the same thing
  with Abraham. Joshua does the same thing later in Josh 23-24. You can
  find similar covenant renewals throughout the O.T. Look at David and
  Jonathan and you will see their initial cutting of the covenant and a
  later covenant renewal/ratification ceremony.

  The point is that Moses is speaking to an already chosen/elect people
  called Israel. They are already a covenant people. The covenant has
  blessings and cursings. It's much like a divine ultimatum. Later on in
  Israel's history you see the prophets acting as God's prosecuting
  attorneys bringing cases against the covenant breakers.

  Tom Brewer
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Date:         Sun, 8 Nov 1992 01:22:03 EST
From:         Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Student prolife groups--update

The other day I posted an item about faculty and student pro-life
organizations on several lists.  On another list someone else posted
this followup:

    I would like to include in his list:

        Collegians Activated to Liberate Life
        1605 Monroe Street, Suite 107
        Madison, Wisconsin 53711
        phone: (608) 238-5262
        FAX: (608) 238-4969

    This is a really small group of 6 college students who have taken
    their junior/senior year off to help with networking college
    right to life groups together.  The former president of Indiana
    University's Students for Life, Lorraine Jamieson, a good friend
    of mine, is one of the students working there.  They are primari-
    ly for the Midwest, but they hope to be nationwide someday.  This
    is the first year for the CALL program, and all the students
    literally live in the CALL offices, to save money. CALL publishes
    a newsletter called _The_Trumpet_, free for college students, and
    $15/yr for others. The members do an extensive amount of rescu-
    ing, having been arrested many times.  They travel from place to
    place, giving talks at high schools and colleges whenever they
    can.  I'd really recommend contacting this group and supporting
    them in any way you can, financially, or if you're poor like me,
    through prayer.  They feel that the only way to rid the country
    of the evils of abortion and all the other problems that arise
    in dealing with family life is to start up such a movement among
    college students and people, in union with the churches.  Another
    exciting thing is that most of the 6 CALL members are orthodox
    Catholics.

    Anyway, please pray for them and contact them if you like.  If
    you speak with Lorraine, tell her that Jay sent you!  ;-)

I corrected a few apparent typos in the above.

Marty Helgesen
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Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 09:01:01 CST
From:         A16905@ITESO.BITNET
Subject:      Re: prayer request

Jane Mayo,

I'll pray for Peg and Bill. I just want to say that any of us may request
prayer and it is our duty to attend that prayer request, by no means you
have to pray for us prior to ask for prayer. We are christians and we don't
do things because others like that, we do things because Jesus wants.

Shalom,
Memo.