From: dbshapco@napier.uwaterloo.ca (Brad Shapcott)
Subject: Re: Liberty (was something relevant about CO-2 long ago...)
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 22:30:58 GMT


>
>Not in my experience, she doesn't.  However, she has observed that the
>most clueless, inappropriate, and nonsensical suggestions are proposed
>almost exclusively by men.

So?  Do you educate them or slap them around?

>It takes a special knack to discern this most subtle relationship;
>scientists have not yet been able to train lower forms of life to
>recognize such patterns.  But keep trying, Bobo!

Going into personal mode here,

The first twenty-something years of my life (and I'm under thirty, so take
that as the majority of my life) were spent in a mode something like this.
[This might hurt us all a bit].

"I don't get it."

"That's bullshit."

"What a buncha fat dyke bitches.  There just bitter cuz no man wants them."

"Date rape?  What the hell is that supposed to mean?"

Remember, I fully identified as a het boy once, and I warned you all that it
was ugly (maybe we can sub-title this "Confessions of a Misogynist Dork").
Why was I like this?

1) Social context.  Grow up where I did and you're lucking not to be driving
   around in a big pickup, tossing empties in the back, spittin' out the
   window as you adjust your 'Mac Diesel' cap, and discussing the merits of
   the asses of women you pass like so much beef on the rack.

2) Poorly and offensively presented information.  Blame oriented politics.
   Natural tendency not to subscribe to any ideology that tends to paint
   your social caste as a bunch of losers and abusers.  Ability to distance
   psychically from incriminating messages.

3) Deeply entrenched support on *ALL* social levels (family, school,
   government, media, and so on) of sexist attitudes.  How much air time
   or time in the classroom does feminism get?  Damn little.

        4) Many other complex little reasons too numerous to mention.

And nobody was doing to beat these ideas out of my head with any level of
insults (in fact, that usually just makes a person easier to dismiss -- it
might be a salve to anger and resentment and feelings of being disenfranchised
and marginalized, but is plainly destructive).

So what?  Well, hopefully I'm not as apparently clueless these days.  So what's
the difference?

1) People who took the time to speak or write calmly and rationally about
   what they were talking about, and to explain the concepts and the reasons
   propelling feminism.  To make *me* believe in these things the way that
   *they* believed in them.

2) Learning to feel pretty pissed off about how badly this society functions.
   Opening my eyes to a spectrum of injustice that was not only ignored, but
   tacitly encouraged by our law, our government, our media.  And our citizens,
   in the majority, of *both* sexes.

3) Trying to distance myself from my birthright and socialization.  Feeling
   as trapped, hopeless and stifled in the role handed to me by society,
   as editted an personally annihilated, as any other person.  What made
   people assume I wanted a corporate job, to be the provider, to fight
   or die for my country, or any other damn thing?

4) Many other complex little reasons too numerous to mention.

It's not complete.  I didn't wake up one morning a feminist and still wouldn't
call myself one because I haven't yet learned enough (a feminist wannabee?).
I find myself making stupid comments that I am immediately dumbfounded by
and regret the instant I make them.  I'm sure I do other things I don't clue
in to.

I gather insights, and I wrestle with concepts (like gender in language).
I'm clumsy and sophomoric at times.  Possibly appearing downright stupid
to others.  But, I'm trying to learn and grow, and statements like Melinda's
whether they were aimed where I'm standing or not, sting me.  If I don't
understand feminism or date rape or gender equity I'd like to pretend I've
at least have a good start, and maybe even some unique insight, however
small.   I learn about ideas by playing with them, by gymnastics of the
mind and soul that come out in my rhetoric.  I put great value to some things
(preventing rape) and less to others (language genderism), because I resist
the notion that humans are not capable of discimination, and therefore
wisdom in which battles they choose to pursue.

I can't *see* the point of feminism if it isn't to clue in the type of person
I used to be, and then to continue educating the type of person I've become.
I'd like to see feminism (not feminists on an individual basis, some of
whom can be offensive and overbearing) as beyond that pettiness and political
posturing that first formed who I was.  I want to believe that feminism if
able to effect change in our society will release us *all* from our bonds.
It's not something I see in my lifetime, but on the other hand something I
will not excuse myself from failing to pursue.  What else but the moral
puerility and failing of my ancestors made me heir to this broken society?

If feminsim really doesn't want men on board, I see it as a mistake, but
having clearly gotten this message, would personally stop chasing the
bandwagon.

If anyone thinks to reply to anything less than this full post, I won't even
think of responding.  I'm just a bit tired at the egotistical posturing
masquerading as insight, righteousness and witticisms that seems to have
taken over parts of this group (not thinking of anyone in particular).
And while I'm reigning in my ego, that does mean that people can use what
I've said to really damage me, and destroy my enjoyment of the 'space'
this group has created.  If you don't feel yourself above preying on that
vulnerability, sit on your hands.

In other words, I've put my neck out so far and made it so easy to twist what
I have said, I doubt I'd be able to defend myself from a well put together
attack.



>--
>Tim Pierce


I can't really respect the things said by the last three people under this
banner, despite my respect for the people.  Maybe if we could see 'stupid'
as 'unlearned', 'clumsy' as 'untried', 'sophomoric' as 'incomplete', and
an automatic ascription of humanity and inherent worth in talking with
each other, we could start a dialogue with a future, rather than one
obsessed with the wrong and hurtful words of the past.  (I can't be the
only one on this group who is trying earnestly to learn and perhaps not
showing it well.)



Brad

Newsgroups: soc.bi