From: chyang@periphrasis.engin.umich.edu (Chung Hsiung Yang)
Subject: Re: Chinese Running Dog
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 92 19:12:00 EST
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor
Originator: chyang@periphrasis.engin.umich.edu


In article <1gge27INNfas@agate.berkeley.edu>, bhchan@soda.berkeley.edu (Billy H. Chan) writes:
> I took a class 2 years ago called Sino-Soviet in which China and the
> then Soviet Union were discussed.  I know that it is now "Past"
> history, esp the Soviet Union, but none the less, a recent poster
> claimed that Communism in China is not a Chinese invention.  I beg
> to differ.
> It was a fact that Chinese Communism _was_ based on the doctrines of
> Marx and Stalin, but at no time in it's history did the Soviets
> consider Chinese Communism "Communism".  Why?  Because there are
> aspects native to the Chinese people in Chinese Communism.  Please
> note that Chinese Communism is only _based_ on the Russian system,
> so CCP et.al is not a 'foreign invasion' as Jian Chen believed.
> 

	Oh!  That was me, C. H. Yang.  The Anti-Communist Chinese.
Not Jian Chen, the communist Chinese.

	Yes, sure.  CCP is based on the Russian system.   The rise of CCP
came from an outside source, but it is still not an Chinese invention.
Yes, it is still foreign invation because the Russians wanted to gain an
allie against the West so it help to establish an government in Chinese.
That is pretty foreign to me.  

> Lets just face it, almost all governments pillage and 'rape' their
> people, no matter what excuses they try to come out with to justify
> this. 

	Yes.  The CCP did it more frequently and with more harm.
 
> Communism was a good attempt to get rid of all the politicians et.al,
> but alas, the implimentation of one man's dream led to corruption
> etc.etc.etc.  In fact, the basic premise of Communism was equality.

	Yes.  Equality.  They did achieve equality everyone equally poor
and everyone equally powerless.  Unless you are a member of the ruling
party of course.

> Democrasy was also a good attempt to get rid of all the politicians,
> the nobility of then despotic Europe (from which the United States
> originally came from).  The Founding Fathers (short sighteed as they
> were) originally hoped for equality.  However, another good idea
> botched in implimentation.

	Hmm... maybe.  But one has more right in a democratic society.
The fact that you can write this post without being censored like you
would have been if you are in China does say something.
	
	Yes, the founding father you speak off did realize the limitation
of democracy.  But they attempted to give people as much right as possible
without violating the right of others.  

> Perhaps, one may hope to join the CCP in making a change.  Perot was
> going to do that for the US (make a change, get the power out of the
> politician's hands and back to the people).

	Yes.  There are quite a few, namely the right wingers of CCP.
But they are largely suppressed by the hardliners or the left wingers.
Most recently, one of the most proment reformers was forced down in the
eve of the TAM incident.  So much for change.  


> So, if Jian's argument is that the only reason one would join CCP is

	You mean C. H. Yang's argument.

> so they can buddy buddy with the corrupted officials and steal from
> the people, I ask you to replace 'CCP' with your favorite government,
> and see if your argument still holds.

	Well.  Yes and no.  This will hold in countries like Chile, 
Cuba, Burma, or even Solmalia most definitely.  But in a country
like the US.  one does not need to have this connect in order to
live a better life.  Although it is a simple road to a good life.

	However, in China, as a government official, or if you
have connections, you can do pretty much anything you want.  There
is no concept of political scandel with the exception if you go
against the party.  

	I agree that such abuses occurs in other countries, but 
at least the people can do something about it.  In China, if 
the Jennifer Flower thing happens to a politician, the politcian
can kill the woman and suppress it so that no one would ever know
or ever dare to do anything about it.  For example, remember the
stock market "scandle" even before the public had a chance to buy
it, the government official already took the loot.  So much for
reform.   The funny thing is that they are not even discreet about it.
The people can complain, but if it get to the point when people
becomes too annoying, they can bring out the tanks.


> I know there are corrupt officials in the US Government.  As there
> are in the British.  As I've stated, I think most governmentss are
> basically the same (note: most.  I'm sure there are kind exceptions)
> So, would you join the Democrats, so you can know a few politicians?
> (go buddy buddy, as you say).  We all know that there are corrupt
> politicians in the US that steal from the people. 

	Sure, but the people have the power to reveal these scandles and
bring them to the public.

> So, it's the amount of corruption, right?  Sure, I buy that.  But

	No, as a citizen of PRC, you have the right to remain silent
or be shot.

> how do you propose this is changed?  From the inside?  From an
> 'invasion' from the outside?  In order to change the system, one
> must know the system.  In order to effectively change the system,
> one must be within the system.  There's a Chinese proverbs on
> knowing one's enemy, but my recall is bad right now.

	I can tell from your post that you are probably fresh out of
high school.  Although I may be wrong, many people on this net act
like they are still in high school.  

	Its good to be an idealist, but it also good sometimes to 
be a realist and really see what is going on.

	Although it probably wouldn't do you too much good at 
Berkeley, the hot bed of American Leftist Thinking. 

- C. H. Yang

> Just IMHO.  Free of charge.
> -- 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> *	Billy H. Chan		<bhchan@ocf.berkeley.edu> 	*
> *	Lost at Cal!!!   	<bhchan@soda.berkeley.edu>	*
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china,soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.hongkong