HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: fardoun_a@cubldr.colorado.edu
Subject: Re: AlpaLeb V 1.0
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 21:29:48 GMT

In article <1992Oct3.220946.18282@prism.poly.edu>, medawar@prism.poly.edu (Bassem Medawar) writes:
> In article <3OCT199215151964@uhdvx3.dt.uh.edu> 9999sc01@uhdvx3.dt.uh.edu (Alexandre Khalil) writes:
> 
>>In article <soufi.718076428@neptune.cs.uiuc.edu>, soufi@cs.uiuc.edu (Khaled S. Soufi) writes...
 
> I could restate the same sentence from a different perspective:
> 
>                                 Khaled, just because you and other
> people think it is not a good idea to read and write Arabic using Latin
> characters, that does *not* mean no one else is interested.  
> 
> Clearly, unless we take a poll, we wouldn't know for sure how many want
> to Latinize Arabic on scl and how many don't!  I suggest, since Latinized
> Arabic buggs you so much that you stop reading Latinized Arabic messages
> on scl or is it the case that you want to impose your opinions on others?

since you are so hot about this new lebanese-latin language, I suggest that 
you start your own net; and however would like to read in the latin-lebanese 
way he can do so.  

> 
> Let the market place decide for God's sake.  

what do you mean by the market place ???? 

A. fardoun
> bassem
> 
> 
> bassem
From: medawar@prism.poly.edu (Bassem Medawar)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
Subject: Re: AlpaLeb V 1.0
Date: 1 Oct 92 15:50:53 GMT
Organization: Polytechnic University, New York

In article <1992Sep29.225504.6097@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> wmuhanna@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Waleed A Muhanna) writes:
>Having skimmed through your proposal, and while I am always interested in 
>new ideas on how to transliterate Arabic in Latin, I frankly see little or
>no merit in this so-called "AlphaLeb".  Existing Arabic-Latin-Arabic 
>transliteration schemes, such as Qalam, can accomodate any dialect of 
>Arabic with little or no additions/modification.  

Great!  Why don't you explain what the Qalam transliteration scheme is?
What's its alphabet or mapping rules.. so on.

bassem
From: e.d.wardini@easteur-orient.uio.no (Elie Dib Wardini)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
Subject: Re: soc.culture.lebanon.dialect?
Date: 6 Oct 92 09:45:18 GMT
Organization: UiO

In article <1992Oct5.151313.15564@prism.poly.edu> medawar@prism.poly.edu
(Bassem Medawar) writes:
>fi shee ihtimaame la ti'sis soc.culture.lebanon.dialect?  ba@rif inno Hatbayin
>fikrah "in@izeeliyeh":)  wa inno l-ba@aD @a scl Hay naTinTo fao'aani 
>w-taHtani :)  shuu ra'ikon?
>
>hadaf "scld" Haykoon l-kitabeh bil-lahjeh al-lubneenyee bi ayya Sura, AlephLeb
>aww ghayro.
>
>cameen fakkro izha l-'isim "scld" mnasib
>
>b@aat l-To@liiaat l-saKifee la /dev/null
>
>bassem
>

Ya Bassem, yimkin raH y'uulo @anni inni @aniid, bass mazbuut ana @aniid!

la'a, s.cl. mis^ milkak, wall milki! scl mis^ milk hadan! iza inta baddak
tiktob bil-@arabe bi-Hruuf Laatiniyye, inta Horr,w-ma Hadan b-yi'dor yimna@ak!

ille mis^ @eejbo, Kalli ma yi'ra huwwe! fi bi-uulo baddon Libneen dimokraati
w-Horr, Kalliyon yfarjuuna s^ hiyye had-dimokraatiyye ille b-yiHko @anna!

ana Didd scld! ma tinsa, niHna Kli'na Horriin, w-raH nmuut Horriin!

w-ya jabal Libneen ma yhizzak riiH!



elie wardini
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
From: e.d.wardini@easteur-orient.uio.no (Elie Dib Wardini) (Elie Dib Wardini)
Subject: Re: Democracy not a majority dictatorship
Organization: UiO
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1992 11:56:24 GMT

In article <1992Sep25.181411.3811@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu>
alami@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Wassim Alami) writes:
>
>
>I don't believe we agree on this point. Lebanon will stay a country 
>without identity when people still dig in history for extinct 
>civilization and call them "ancestors".


etc. etc.

>
>Anyway, I think we squeezed this subject till the last drop,
>and I can't see any more use pursuing this discussion.
>

No it seems that this is a point which shows that we can deisagree on. Yet we
still want to live with each other.

I do not want to discuss definitions. You said it, we have spoken about it at
length.

Nevertheless, I do not believe that you understand my identity and my view on
my identity. Maybe we should exaplain more about the issue?

Maybe I do not understand yours.

Yet the point is that want LEbanon with such an "identity" that can encompass
both you and me.

THis Means, if Lebanon is defined as "A country representing a multicolor of
identities and cultures" (read pluralistic) this identity will fit any
Lebanese, no matter how and whom we as individuals identify with.

I need not speak about *ISOLATION* anymore (or should I?), since I have made it
very clear, that my Phoenician identity does not mean that I refuse to
cooperate with Arabs, Israelis, Jews, French, Turks, Iranians etc. as long as
this coopereation is to the benefit of my country and of all its population.

>
>Wassim


elie wardini
From: e.d.wardini@easteur-orient.uio.no (Elie Dib Wardini)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
Subject: Re: The "ploy" w-shu kamen ?
Date: 6 Oct 92 10:35:36 GMT
Organization: UiO

In article <Bvopop.EwI@ecf.toronto.edu> hyper@ecf.toronto.edu (Hypersonic CFD
Combust Diag) writes:

na@am Samir, mis^ @am na@rif niHke ma@ ba@d!

kill ma waHad @imil s^i, min ballis^ niHthom min yamiin w-min s^meel!

>
>>
>>
>>I hope that the Middle East will get out of this vicious circle! but, is not
>>pluralism the same as chaos?  :(
>>
>
>Were you not advocating pluralism at some point. especially in a discussion
>with Wassim Alame?. Then again, before that you were advocating secularism
>but not the elimination of the confessional system.

You did not understand the irony in my statement!

I advocate pluralism, yet some say that pluralism is chaos.

so by advocating freedom of choice as far as language orscript is concerned, we
are directly called isolationaists! you yourself seconded such statements!

maybe you are afraid of pluralism since you belive that it is chaos? or does
not pluralism fit your views?

yes, I do not want pity, but understanding. Yet I don't think that you are the
right ones to show it!

oh, yes who are you and who are we?

you are the ones who by death or life want to oppose anything that does not fit
your views of the world.

and we who for life or death, want to have our complete freedom dispite your
dislikes!

I do believe that we can reach some kind of understanding. I am sure that i
real life (outside the net) we would be better able to tackle pluralism than on
the net. Maybe we should try to make our principle to try to accept anywhere we
are.


>>I get more and more pessimistic every day!
>>
>
>Tell me about it!!!.
>
>>
>>may God bless them!
>>
>
>May God bless us all, brother!!! :).

I hope so, we all need it!

>
>Samir.
>

elie wardini
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
From: ayman@eecs.umich.edu (Ayman I. Kayssi)
Subject: Re: AlpaLeb V 1.0
Organization: ACAL, EECS, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 21:49:01 GMT

Khaled S. Soufi (soufi@m.cs.uiuc.edu) wrote:
: I think you missed the point.  Nobody has accused you of trying to
: *replace* Arabic with Lebanese.  The point that was made was that you
: people are trying to reinvent the wheel!  As to your point about
: Arabic and ASCII, I think you ought to look at the smart Japanese.
: They were not "interested in ways to represent JAPANESE alphabet in
: ASCII".  Instead, they made those dummy machines understand their
: alphabet, which, of course, is the smarter way to do it!  Computers
: are good because they are *general-purpose*.  They are dummy machines
: that will do what you want them to do.  It should *not* be the other
: way around!

No, I think *you* missed the point. The majority of us have 7 bit ASCII or
8 bit-capable terminals on their desks. How do you suggest we write
and read Arabic on our terminals, without modifying/replacing the hardware
and software, which the majority of us are not interested in doing?

--
Ayman I. Kayssi                               |    ayman@eecs.umich.edu
EECS Department                               +------------------------
University of Michigan                        |          (313) 764-8033
From: medawar@prism.poly.edu (Bassem Medawar)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
Subject: soc.culture.lebanon.dialect?
Date: 5 Oct 92 15:13:13 GMT
Organization: Polytechnic University, New York

fi shee ihtimaame la ti'sis soc.culture.lebanon.dialect?  ba@rif inno Hatbayin
fikrah "in@izeeliyeh":)  wa inno l-ba@aD @a scl Hay naTinTo fao'aani 
w-taHtani :)  shuu ra'ikon?

hadaf "scld" Haykoon l-kitabeh bil-lahjeh al-lubneenyee bi ayya Sura, AlephLeb
aww ghayro.

cameen fakkro izha l-'isim "scld" mnasib

b@aat l-To@liiaat l-saKifee la /dev/null

bassem
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
From: nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss)
Subject: Re: Ambassadors' names
Organization: NCR E&M Columbia SC.
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 92 15:46:46 GMT

In article <1992Sep30.133841.1@cubldr.colorado.edu> fardoun_a@cubldr.colorado.edu writes:
>In article <1992Sep29.152734.28279@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM>, nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss) writes:
>> I got one more from a shy person who does not want to post it. I will
>> post it instead.
>> 
>> Iranian Ambassador:  Hafez Bidat Allah
>> 
>
>I tkink more than one message asked our fellow lebanese or whatever to kindly
>stop. it looks like the insensitivity of some other continues
>						A. fardoun
>> 
>> -- 

For your own information, I posted this article before anybody protested 
these postings. And for your own information those people who are protesting
this kind of language on SCL used a much more abusive language on this net
few months ago. Does "hehehehe"  ring a bell? 
-- 
Nabil Idriss                           |   We take customer satisfaction  
NCR - Midrange Products Division       |   personally.
      Columbia, South Carolina         |      
email: nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM |
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
From: rached@sample.eng.ohio-state.edu (Rached Zantout)
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on Arabic aphabet news reader
Organization: The Ohio State University Dept of Electrical Engineering
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 14:26:13 GMT

Bassem
It seems that the easiest is to write a program that will read an "Alephleb"
(sp?) file and draw (?) it on the terminal. You might consider a program that will
take an "Alephleb" file and output a postscript file of arabic.
There is still one problem not solved that of being able to write in arabic and
transforming it to a "Alphaleb" file.


rached
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
From: ayman@eecs.umich.edu (Ayman I. Kayssi)
Subject: Israelis say Syria holds key to Lebanon calm
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 14:53:15 EDT
Organization: The University of Michigan, Ann Arbor
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

[ Article crossposted without permission ]
[ Author was UPI ]
[ Posted on 30 Sep 92 15:37:10 GMT ]


	JERUSALEM (UPI) -- Israeli leaders, keeping a watchful eye on clashes
north of the border, said Wednesday that a reduction in violence in
south Lebanon would depend on progress during peace talks with Syria. 
	``To our regret, the key in Lebanon today lies solely in the hands of
Damascus,'' said Ori Orr, chairman of Parliament's powerful foreign
affairs and security committee.
	The comment came a day after pro-Iranian Hezbollah militiamen
launched a fierce assault on positions of the Israeli-backed South
Lebanon Army, sparking shooting and shelling that left nine people dead,
including an Irish United Nations peacekeeper.
	The fighting began along the northern perimeter of Israel's self-
proclaimed ``security zone'', a 9-mile enclave north of the
international border that is policed by the SLA. Israel carved out the
enclave in 1985 with the stated intention of deterring cross-border
raids.
	``If there is no progress (in talks) with Syria, there is no chance
that anything will take place in Lebanon,'' said Orr, a former general
in charge of Israel's northern front. ``Lebanon alone cannot control
Hezbollah or any other group.''
	Israeli and Syrian negotiators last week wrapped up a month of peace
talks in Washington, far apart in their discussions about the future of
the occupied Golan Heights and what type of peaceful relations might
exist between the traditional enemies.
	Orr said that Damascus, which has troops deployed in much of Lebanon,
could rein in Hezbollah if it ``made a real effort'' and coordinated
with the militia's Iranian backers.
	``Syria rules in Lebanon but right now it lacks any real incentive to
stop Hezbollah,'' he said.
	Moshe Arens, the former defense minister, also said that Damascus was
decisive in determining the level of violence against the South Lebanon
Army and targets in the ``security zone.''
	``I do not think President Assad orders Hezbollah to undertake an
action, but it is clear that he does not prevent them from acting,''
said Arens. ``This is an old Syrian policy which did not change after
the peace negotiations started.''
	The talks started almost a year ago as part of the Madrid Arab-
Israeli peace process chaired by the United States and former the Soviet
Union.

--
Ayman I. Kayssi                               |    ayman@eecs.umich.edu
EECS Department                               +------------------------
University of Michigan                        |          (313) 764-8033
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
From: sion@apache.ctr.columbia.edu (Boudi Sahyoun)
Subject: Re: Ambassadors' names
Organization: Free Lebanon
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 23:56:23 GMT
X-Posted-From: apache.ctr.columbia.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1992Sep27.112209.28607@ulrik.uio.no> e.d.wardini@easteur-orient.uio.no (Elie Dib Wardini) (Elie Dib Wardini) writes:

>>                    The German ambassador is : Shlakhto Btakhto
>>                    The Chinese ambassador is: Shim Tizi Shim
> 	               The French ambassador: Jean Masakliye
>                   The Spanish ambassador: Dandalero Sandofiik
>

And for the francophones among us, here's another one

L'ambassadeur polonais: Slav LapinoWisky


Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
From: nmouawad@waterloo.edu (Naji Mouawad)
Subject: Re: AlpaLeb V 1.0
Organization: University of Waterloo
	<NMOUAWAD.92Oct4154041@neumann.waterloo.edu>
	<1992Oct5.141626.14842@ee.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 19:14:12 GMT

In article <1992Oct5.141626.14842@ee.eng.ohio-state.edu> rached@sample.eng.ohio-state.edu (Rached Zantout) writes:

   Naji,
   I agree, definition of Language vs. Dialect has a major part in politics. Still
   we can differentiate between Arabic and English since they are written totally
   differently.
   I think it is still not deterministic and this is due to the interaction between
   people and mixing of their languages (like Ashikman for Echapment, which has
   became a Lebaneese word).


   rached


You know what Khaled, I must thank you for your style and moderation.
It is making this conversation extreemly pleasant.

yeslam temmak !


As far as our conversation goes, I would like to clarify one point:

I don't hate the Arabic language nor do I hate Arabs. I strongly
believe that one's actions speak more than one's denominations or
labels, after all labels and denominations have a lot to do with the
continuation of the Lebanese crisis.

Having said that, and putting all political claims on the side, I wish
we could all exchange some our ideas in another language than English.

So how about I speak to you in Lebanese and you answer me in Arabic.
Would that be an acceptable compromise and maybe a start of a bridge ?

naji.
--
     -------------------------------------------------------------------
    | Naji Mouawad  |          nmouawad@watmath.waterloo.edu            |
    |  University   |---------------------------------------------------|
    | Of Waterloo   |   "The Stranger in us is our most familiar Self"  |
     -------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
From: ayman@eecs.umich.edu (Ayman I. Kayssi)
Subject: Re: AlpaLeb V 1.0
Organization: ACAL, EECS, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 21:30:10 GMT

Samer Faraj (samer@bass.bu.edu) wrote:
:
: This proposal to develop a representation of the "Lebanese mother
: tongue" represents a new attempt in the old political ploy to separate
: Lebanon from its Arab surrounding.  Several proposals of the same
: nature have been championed by Lebanese isolationists over the last
: half century.  Under the guise of using the "modern" ascii
: representation, the proposal is just one more attempt to change 
: the mindset of Lebanese by changing their alphabet to the supposedly 
: superior Latin alphabet.

AlephLeb (why does the subject line say AlpaLeb) is a proposed standard (:-)
to read and write Lebanese, be it a language or a dialect, on a 7-bit ASCII
terminal. No more, no less. 
Since we're stuck with ASCII for now, and until we have 16 bit characters and
the hardware and software that understand 16 bit, AlpehLeb will provide an
elegant solution to the problem of representing what we speak using ASCII.

If you know of a better solution, please tell us about it.

--
Ayman I. Kayssi                               |    ayman@eecs.umich.edu
EECS Department                               +------------------------
University of Michigan                        |          (313) 764-8033
From: elie@hdtv.njit.edu (Elie I. Mourad)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
Subject: Middle East Watch message to Syrian puppet.
Date: 29 Sep 92 15:59:10 GMT
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.


In a letter to the Syrian-puppet Elias Hrawi, Middle East Watch expressed
its deep concern "over recent cases of mass arrests without warrants,
and detention without charges or access to legal counsel by the 
(Syrian-controlled) Military Intelligence forces. Those arrests have
escalated since the middle of August and appear to be continuing...

Middle East Watch requested that civilian detainees be turned over to
civilian authorities as soon as possible. All those detained should be
promptly informed of the charges against them and allowed access to family
members and to legal counsel to prepare for their defense. Those against
whom there are no charges should be released immediately."
From: soufi@cs.uiuc.edu (Khaled S. Soufi)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
Subject: Re: AlpaLeb V 1.0
Date: 3 Oct 92 01:40:28 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL

ayman@eecs.umich.edu (Ayman I. Kayssi) writes:

>Khaled S. Soufi (soufi@m.cs.uiuc.edu) wrote:
>: I think you missed the point.  Nobody has accused you of trying to
>: *replace* Arabic with Lebanese.  The point that was made was that you
>: people are trying to reinvent the wheel!  As to your point about
>: Arabic and ASCII, I think you ought to look at the smart Japanese.
>: They were not "interested in ways to represent JAPANESE alphabet in
>: ASCII".  Instead, they made those dummy machines understand their
>: alphabet, which, of course, is the smarter way to do it!  Computers
>: are good because they are *general-purpose*.  They are dummy machines
>: that will do what you want them to do.  It should *not* be the other
>: way around!

>No, I think *you* missed the point. The majority of us have 7 bit ASCII or

Of course I did.  I was just waiting for you Ayman to set me straight!

>8 bit-capable terminals on their desks. How do you suggest we write
                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>and read Arabic on our terminals, without modifying/replacing the hardware
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You actually believe people would be interested in reading writing
Arabic using Latin characters, aren't you?  This is really beginning
to sound like a good comedy.  Ayman, just because you and other
people think it is a good idea to read and write Arabic using Latin
characters, that does *not* mean everybody else is interested.  I
hope this will not shock you now that I have seen *we* and *majority*
being consistenly used in your post.

As to your problem of reading and writing Arabic on a terminal, it 
sounds to me more like a software problem rather than a hardware as
you are trying to imply.  I think the solution would probably require 
some researched mapping techniques between codes & fonts.

Now, you do need good terminals, ones which would support the graphical
display of different fonts (eg Arabic).  A Mac, Sun, Spark, Dec, IBM... 
workstation would definitely have these capabilities.  What kind
of a lousy terminal are you using anyway?  And, what makes you think
that the majority of people have the same terminal as you!?!?
One more thing, I did not see any comment from you on why you think the 
Japanese did not modify their alphabet so that they can write Japanese
using ASCII codes!  Could it be because they want to preserve their
alphabet/language and not let a little obstacle such as the ASCII codes
prevent them from doing that?  Or is it because they lacked the minds to 
invent an AlpahaJap?  What do you think Ayman?

>and software, which the majority of us are not interested in doing?
                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I am not sure what is the psychological factor that makes you Ayman
think that when you express an opinion, it would be that of a majority!

>--
>Ayman I. Kayssi                               |    ayman@eecs.umich.edu

Khaled
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
From: nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
Subject: Ambassadors' names
Date: 29 Sep 92 15:27:33 GMT
Organization: NCR E&M Columbia SC.
Originator: nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM

I got one more from a shy person who does not want to post it. I will
post it instead.

Iranian Ambassador:  Hafez Bidat Allah


-- 
Nabil Idriss                           |   We take customer satisfaction  
NCR - Midrange Products Division       |   personally.
      Columbia, South Carolina         |      
email: nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM |
From: elie@sensors.njit.edu (Elie I. Mourad)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
Subject: Re: Ambassadors' names
Date: 27 Sep 92 13:08:38 GMT
Article-I.D.: njitgw.1992Sep27.130838.24428
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.


Grow up guys.


--

                                 ________
________________________________/--------\______________________________________
 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
From: rached@sample.eng.ohio-state.edu (Rached Zantout)
Subject: Re: AlpaLeb V 1.0
Organization: The Ohio State University Dept of Electrical Engineering
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 13:00:58 GMT

Naji

While on the subject of dialects, it is hard for me to grasp the concept of a
Lebaneese dialect totally different from the other neighboring dialects.

Let me expalin,
as someone who has lived in Beirut, I speak the beiruti, Lebaneese dialect of the
arabic language (too long a name). When I talk to people from the north (tripoli
etc...) I find their dialect to be more near to the Syrian dialect of the syrians
on the mediteranean. Similarly people from the south have a nearer dialect to the
people from palestine. It seems to me that the specifics of the dialect vary by
location even inside one country. United States for example has the NY accent,
the southern accent, the Californian (dude) accent etc...

It is more easy for me to distinguish between somebody talking in Belgium's
language than in German French or English. That's why I consider each a different
language but not the dialects of our areas.

In fact people from the mountains of lebanon speak much like people from the
mountains in Syria although there is no geographical connection between them.

I guess many factors play an important role in dialects, still I cannot really
accept the definition of a language as a dialect with an army because to me two
languages are totally different. Thus when you speak french to english people
they will never understand you even if you spell the words. But when you speak
lebaneese to a moroccan (or vice versa) with some more attention and trying
harder we may understand each other. It seems that the differentiation between a
language and a dialect is more than a force behind one.

rached
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon