HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jensd@cs.tu-berlin.de (Jens Dengler)
Subject: Re: Upright Reversed
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 10:29:53 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.021143.14839@vax5.cit.cornell.edu>, ewn@vax5.cit.cornell.edu writes:
> What kind od deck are you using?  Many decks (well, okay, SOME decks) don't
> have sybolic pictures on the minor arcana.  For example, the Oswald Wirth deck.  
> In this case, it's awfully hard to use any reversed meanings.  Plus, its no
> fun; with Rider/Waite etc, the cards all have pictures to help you remember the
> meanings.  (OW doesnt even give the meanings of the minor arcana in its
> booklet!!!)  It's all memorization, like for an exam.
> 
> The major arcana at least have pictures (very similar in style to Marseilles
> deck), though it doesnt give reverse meanings for these cards.
> 
> What I've been doing with that deck, and to a lesser extent with my
> Rider/Waite, is using reverse meanings on the trumps, and the upright meanings
> for the suites.
> 

My opinion is, as long as you can identify the orientation of the card
on the front side, you can make a reverse meaning (or less significance)
interpretation. On the Marseilles deck (perhaps only on some prints
of which I got one) there is a very small roman number on one short
side of the card.

But there are decks where you really can't identify the orientation
of the minor arcana.

Then it is impossible to recognize a minor card as reverse and then
I personally use the whole deck upright.

But another aspect, if one should do the reverse meaning interpretation
or not is the backside of the card. On some decks like the Toth deck
you could recognize by the backside, which orientation the cards have.
If I remember right there is also no interpretation of a reverse meaning
in the booklet of the Toth tarot, therefore I use the Toth tarot only
with the upright meaning. On decks like the Starter tarot deck there is
an insignificant backside and on the card itself upright and reverse
meaning is explained, therefore I use the Starter tarot deck alway
orientation oriented.

One more aspect is the feeling for the cards. If you are unsecure with
one deck, you could play it upright for a while, and later you will play
it more and more with reverse meaning.
From: ewn@vax5.cit.cornell.edu
Newsgroups: alt.divination
Subject: Upright Reversed
Date: 10 Sep 92 02:11:42 EDT
Distribution: world
Organization: Cornell University

What kind od deck are you using?  Many decks (well, okay, SOME decks) don't
have sybolic pictures on the minor arcana.  For example, the Oswald Wirth deck.  
In this case, it's awfully hard to use any reversed meanings.  Plus, its no
fun; with Rider/Waite etc, the cards all have pictures to help you remember the
meanings.  (OW doesnt even give the meanings of the minor arcana in its
booklet!!!)  It's all memorization, like for an exam.

The major arcana at least have pictures (very similar in style to Marseilles
deck), though it doesnt give reverse meanings for these cards.

What I've been doing with that deck, and to a lesser extent with my
Rider/Waite, is using reverse meanings on the trumps, and the upright menaings
for the suites.
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 16:15:29 EDT
From: <WJS112@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.divination
Subject: another question
 <JQV609H@mailgzrz.tu-berlin.de>

  I have been told that the suspended man represents me. What exactly does
this mean, or your opinion on this card, besides the basic definition
listed.
   Also, what is the best style to use in card readings. I've seen 10 , 14,
and higher.
           later
                smitty.
From: dantonio@magick.enet.dec.com (David D'Antonio)
Newsgroups: alt.divination
Subject: Re: Tarot Questions
Date: 8 Sep 92 19:10:44 GMT
Reply-To: dantonio@flashy.tay2.dec.com
Organization: None to speak of...


In article <1992Sep8.155910.21335@ncsu.edu>, jwallen1@eos.ncsu.edu (JOHN WAYLON ALLEN) writes:
[...]
|>Also, has anyone else, besides myself and my mentor, adopted an All Upright use
|>of the cards? 

In the little booklet that comes with the (small) Thoth deck, a spread
(I think derived from a Golden Dawn layout) is described where each
card has dignity which is a result of the cards surrounding it. If
they are "friendly", that card's positive meaning is enhanced; if they
are "unfriendly", the "reversed" meaning is used.

I'm not doing a very good job of explaing this; see the booklet for
reference.

|>John W. Allen IV       aka jwallen1@eos.ncsu.edu   

DDA

--
dantonio@magick.tay2.dec.com -or- dantonio@sword1.enet.dec.com
  I've tried to dance with what life had to hand me
    My partner's been pleasure, my partner's been pain
				-Stevie Nicks
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 15:25:02 EDT
From: <WJS112@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.divination
Subject: Re: another question
 <92254.161529WJS112@psuvm.psu.edu> <1992Sep11.160030.1836@axion.bt.co.uk>
 <1992Sep11.131210.1@hamp.hampshire.edu>

Thank you one and all. The definitions given sounded good to me. Actually
though, the only time i got the hanged man was a long time ago, I also
remember as the 10th card as the world, but yes, i do what what that one is.
    Actually, what the person was trying to tell me was that if i could
be represented by any card, it would be that of the hanged man card.  I
usually cannot control events that i'm in, but it is curious to note that
i usually do not worry about my current situation.  Of course, a yoga
instuctor told me this, so as to how much he knew about the cards is in
question, but as to why this card represents me i am unaware of, unless it
was just an observation of my life he noticed, it just seemed to me that he
implied more by it.
    I have a hermetic (sorry if spelled wrong) deck. It does not take long
to realize that just knowing what the cards mean in individual slots isn't
enough.  To bring the entire set of cards drawn into one pattern and then
to say overall what that pattern means baffles me. ANy ideas or book names
on this would be helpfull..well, thats enough spelling errors for one post,
so this is the end.
                   later,gersha

                               Smitty.
From: falcao@felix.metaphor.com (Ronnie Falcao)
Newsgroups: alt.divination
Subject: Re: Upright Cards (was Tarot Questions)
Date: 9 Sep 92 20:05:32 GMT
Distribution: ba
Organization: Metaphor Computer Systems, Mountain View, CA

From a flyer I got in the mail:

		S. F. Bay Area Tarot Symposium

Join Susan [Levitt] along with other Tarotists, including
Mary K. Greer, Thalassa, and the creators of the
"Enchanted Tarot" at this exciting Tarot festival.
Susan's lecture is "Tarot and Astrology".  Saturday,
October 24, 10 am to 5 pm.  Fort Mason, Firehouse Building.
San Francisco.  $30/$40
Newsgroups: alt.divination
From: jamie@cs.sfu.ca (Jamie Andrews)
Subject: Re: Court Cards
Organization: CSS, Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 02:59:44 GMT

     For what it's worth, these days I usually seem to be
interpreting the classes of cards as:

o Minor arcana number cards:
  Decisions, attitudes toward things in your life now, things
  that you can change directly.

o Minor arcana court cards:
  Personality traits of people, which are more difficult to change.

o Major arcana:
  Archetypal forces, within you and without you, that you
  cannot change but must simply accept.

     The court cards could refer to either you or to people that
you know.  So as for the question...

In article <3SEP92.16065144@vax.clarku.edu> ndarvish@vax.clarku.edu writes:
>        I seem to be having a problem interpreting court cards when using
>the celtic cross spread....  How do you interpret a
>character in terms of the crown position or emotional conditions for intance?

     A court card in the crown position could be a person around
whom you have some hopes or fears, or a kind of person whose
positive traits you want or whose negative traits you fear
having.  Under "emotional conditions" (I'm not sure which
position this is in your spread), I would think that it has to
do with your emotions toward another person, or your emotions
toward certain aspects of your personality.

     I often get the Queen or King of Cups in the "crown"
position, and interpret it as a desire to be a person who is
emotionally "in control" and not needy; or as anxiety around my
mother, who was/is an emotionally controlling person.

     Substitute "the querent" for "you" in the above if you're
doing readings for others.

--Jamie.
  jamie@cs.sfu.ca
"Every \item command in item_list must have an optional argument." LaTeX pg.168
From: st1el@rosie.uh.edu (Jensen, Douglas J.)
Newsgroups: alt.divination
Subject: Re: Upright Cards (was Tarot Questions)
Date: 8 Sep 92 21:43:00 GMT
Organization: University of Houston
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Sep8.132412.2238@wkuvx1.bitnet>, kinnema@wkuvx1.bitnet (Mark Kinney, Attorney at Chaos) writes...
>In article <1992Sep8.155910.21335@ncsu.edu>, jwallen1@eos.ncsu.edu (JOHN WAYLON ALLEN) writes:
>> Also, has anyone else, besides myself and my mentor, adopted an All Upright 
>> use of the cards? 
> 
>Both decks I have (The Mythic Tarot and the Elemental Tarot) both use
>the all upright method.  The friend who instructed me some at this
>used a Rider-Waite, and did things all upright.  He treated the
>RuneCards the same way, although I don't.

I haven't posted here before, but HIIIII!!!!!

In any case, I tend to do a few trial readings with each new/different deck
to determine whether or not I should use the inverted meanings.  The test
readings are normally over something I have just done a reading with another
deck on, and are very unlikely to change.  (VERY unlikely)

Happy hunting,

---Doug
From: jwallen1@eos.ncsu.edu (JOHN WAYLON ALLEN)
Newsgroups: alt.divination
Subject: Tarot Questions
Date: 8 Sep 92 15:59:10 GMT
Reply-To: jwallen1@eos.ncsu.edu (JOHN WAYLON ALLEN)
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos
Originator: jwallen1@c00069-100lez.eos.ncsu.edu


Could someone please give me a good english def. for the positions in the 
Celtic Cross?

I've seen Waite's and others interpretations of it.  

I've long ago made my own adaptation of it.  It has served me well, but I am 
sure that someone else has come up with a better method.



Please let me know any views on this subject.  


Also, has anyone else, besides myself and my mentor, adopted an All Upright use
of the cards? 
-- 
==============================================================================
John W. Allen IV       aka jwallen1@eos.ncsu.edu   

The One and Only...     ESCHER BEATNIK       
                                 ...appearing at fine coffee houses everywhere
==============================================================================
From: blowfish@carina.unm.edu (rON.)
Newsgroups: alt.divination
Subject: Re: another question
Date: 15 Sep 92 09:12:28 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

In article <1992Sep15.045838.7687@wolves.uucp> lance@wolves.uucp (Lance Brown) writes:
>In article <92255.152502WJS112@psuvm.psu.edu> WJS112@psuvm.psu.edu writes:
>>    I have a hermetic (sorry if spelled wrong) deck. It does not take long
>>to realize that just knowing what the cards mean in individual slots isn't
>>enough.  To bring the entire set of cards drawn into one pattern and then
>>to say overall what that pattern means baffles me. ANy ideas or book names
>>on this would be helpfull..well, thats enough spelling errors for one post,
>>so this is the end.
>When I first started using Tarot I spent a lot of time just thinking
>about the various cards and there meanings.  I also looked at as many
>different patterns as possible in order to find the ones that make sense
>to me.

This is a decent idea. One other idea is to create your own spread, and use 
that. That way you know exactly what each spot means, and can draw your own
patterns from the cards. 
In more specific reference to the above question- look for certain patterns
at first- is there a lot of major arcana cards, or a lot of cards of one
suit, or no cards of another suit. Fit this into whats being read. Are there
lots of trump cards? Low numbered cards? Unexpected cards showing up? Cards
that don't fit their 'slot' showing up? (A major arcana showing up for
a drawn significator, or a court card (person) showing up in an 'idea' slot?)
Look for patterns like this first- then, as you become more experienced,
you'll see patterns like this easier, and will be able to fit the parts into
a larger whole pattern.

r.
From: lance@wolves.uucp (Lance Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.divination
Subject: Re: another question
Date: 15 Sep 92 04:58:38 GMT
Organization: Wolves Den Unix
X-Md4-Signature: 322c387b90befeb444b2a52507ed71d6

In article <92255.152502WJS112@psuvm.psu.edu> WJS112@psuvm.psu.edu writes:

>    I have a hermetic (sorry if spelled wrong) deck. It does not take long
>to realize that just knowing what the cards mean in individual slots isn't
>enough.  To bring the entire set of cards drawn into one pattern and then
>to say overall what that pattern means baffles me. ANy ideas or book names
>on this would be helpfull..well, thats enough spelling errors for one post,
>so this is the end.

When I first started using Tarot I spent a lot of time just thinking
about the various cards and there meanings.  I also looked at as many
different patterns as possible in order to find the ones that make sense
to me.

It sometimes take a lot of work to get comfortable enough with a
particular deck and/or pattern to put all the pieces together.  One
technique that helped me was to do a LOT of readings on almost any old
thing that happened to me.  This helped me get familiar with the deck
and with reading it in a given pattern.  I sometimes also "chained"
readings together.  Fore example, using the Celtic Cross pattern I would
use the number 10 card from one reading as the significator of the next
reading in order to obtain further insight into a question.  I find this
surprisingly useful sometimes!

Good Luck,
  Lance
From: kinnema@wkuvx1.bitnet (Mark Kinney, Attorney at Chaos)
Newsgroups: alt.divination
Subject: Upright Cards (was Tarot Questions)
Date: 8 Sep 92 13:24:11 CDT
Organization: Western Kentucky University, Bowling Green, KY

In article <1992Sep8.155910.21335@ncsu.edu>, jwallen1@eos.ncsu.edu (JOHN WAYLON ALLEN) writes:
> Also, has anyone else, besides myself and my mentor, adopted an All Upright 
> use of the cards? 

Both decks I have (The Mythic Tarot and the Elemental Tarot) both use
the all upright method.  The friend who instructed me some at this
used a Rider-Waite, and did things all upright.  He treated the
RuneCards the same way, although I don't.

As my friend put it, there's enough of both the good and bad
represented in the deck as it is, and the books I got with the two
decks represent them as archetypes or part of a cycle.
-- 
Mark Kinney [KINNEMA@WKUVX1.(BITNET)(WKU.EDU)] | MEN AT WORK
PhoneNet: (502)745-4246	  (Bowling Green, KY)  | New .sig Under Construction
Quote of the week: "No, I'm sorry lads, he's still got 23 hit points to go!"
				-- "Dragonmirth," _Dragon_ #150
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.history
Subject: Holocaust Almanac: "...perfectly orderly fashion..."
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 92 12:01:03 GMT
Reply-To: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac, Vancouver Island, CANADA
Keywords: Auschwitz

From a report entitled "Resettlement of Jews" written by
SS-Sturmbannfuehrer Alfred Franke-Gricksch for SS-Col.  M.  von Herff and
RF-SS H.  Himmler, after inspection of Auschwitz camp on 14-16 May 1943.

'..the unfit go to cellars in a large house which are entered from outside.
They go down five or six steps into a fairly long, well-constructed and
well-ventilated cellar area, which is lined with benches to the left and
right.  It is brightly lit, and the benches are numbered.  The prisoners
are told that they are to be cleansed and disinfected for their new
assignments.  They must therefore completely undress to be bathed.  To
avoid panic and to prevent disturbances of any kind, they are instructed to
arrange their clothing neatly under their respective numbers, so that they
will be able to find their things again after their bath.  Everything
proceeds in a perfectly orderly fashion.  Then they pass through a small
corridor and enter a large cellar room which resembles a shower bath.  In
this room are three large pillars, into which certain materials can be
lowered from outside the cellar room.  When three- to four-hundred people
have been herded into this room, the doors are shut, and containers filled
with the substances are dropped down into the pillars.  As soon as the
containers touch the base of the pillars, they release particular
substances that put the people to sleep in one minute.  A few minutes
later, the door opens on the other side, where the elevator is located.  
...  Then the corpses are loaded into elevators and brought up to the
first floor, where ten large crematoria are located.  (Because fresh
corpses burn particularly well, only 50-100 lbs.  of coke are needed for
the whole process.) The job itself is performed by Jewish prisoners, who
never step outside this camp again'.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of the gas chambers, by Jean-Claude
Pressac, published by the Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, Library of congress
Catalogue Card Number 89-81305.                                    p. 238
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Old Frog's Almanac - Public Access UseNet for Central Vancouver Island
     (604) 245-3205 (v32) (604) 245-4366 (2400x4) Waffle XENIX 1.64
Ladysmith, British Columbia, CANADA. kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay)
Xref: sparky alt.revisionism:673 soc.history:8087
From: pierce@lanai.cs.ucla.edu (Brad Pierce)
Subject: Jozsef Szendi
Originator: pierce@lanai.cs.ucla.edu
Organization: UCLA, Computer Science Department
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 04:49:20 GMT


Press release from the U.S. Justice Department

 Justice Department Files Complaint to Revoke Citizenship of
Tennessee Resident
 To: National Desk, Tennessee Correspondents
 Contact: Kathy St. Dennis of the U.S. Department of Justice,
          202-514-2007

   WASHINGTON, Sept. 9 /U.S. Newswire/ -- The Department of Justice
today filed a complaint to revoke the citizenship of Jozsef Szendi of
Cookeville, Tenn., for taking part in the persecution of unarmed
Jewish civilians and others while a member of a para-military group
responsible for the enslavement and deportation of much of Hungary's
Jewish population during World War II.
   The complaint was filed in U.S. District Court in Nashville by the
Office of Special Investigations (OSI) of the Justice Department's
Criminal Division and the U.S. Attorney's Office for the Middle
District of Tennessee.
   Szendi's activities included taking part in a raid on a building
in Budapest where Jews were hidden by a rescue program headed by
Swedish diplomat Raoul Wallenberg, the complaint said.
   Szendi voluntarily joined the Royal Hungarian Gendarmerie and
personally transported Jewish civilians from Budapest to the German
SS in Poland, the complaint said.  From 1939 to 1941, the Gendarmerie
deported 16,000 to 18,000 Jewish civilians to Poland, where the SS
shot them to death.
   The complaint said that in 1944 Szendi participated in confining
Hungarian Jews to ghettos and deporting them to the Auschwitz
concentration camp in Poland, where most were murdered in the camp's
gas chambers.
   Szendi later became a member of the armed commando wing of a
Hungarian terrorist organization, the National Organization of
Accountability, that was responsible for assaults, torture, and
killings of public officials, diplomats, political figures, and
unarmed Jewish civilians, the complaint said.
   The complaint said Szendi personally assisted in the persecution
of unarmed Jews and others.  The assistance included taking part in a
1944 armed raid on a building in Budapest in search of Jews hidden
there by a rescue program directed by Wallenberg, the complaint said.
   Szendi misrepresented and concealed his past activities when
applying for immigration to the United States in 1956 under the
Refugee Relief Act of 1953 and the Immigration and Nationality Act of
1952 and subsequently when petitioning for U.S. citizenship in 1964,
according to the complaint.
   To date, 42 Nazi persecutors have been stripped of U.S.
citizenship as a result of OSI's investigations and prosecutions,
and 30 have been removed from the United States.
 -30-
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.history
Subject: Holocaust Almanac: Belzec - From Tank Ditch to Mass Grave
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 92 12:01:03 GMT
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac, Vancouver Island, CANADA
Keywords: Belzec

"In 1939, when Germany and Russia, temporarily in a treat of
non-aggression, divided Poland, buffer areas were set up so that the two
totalitarian giants could protect themselves from each other. Belzec,
appropriated by Germany, was originally intended as part of this
territorial shield. Thousands of conscripted Jews from the Lublin area were
uprooted to construct a wall and extend ditches to cordon off the separate
areas. As it happened, the wall and the dirches proved unnecessary. When
the two allies went to war with each other, the wall was torn down and,
together with the ditches, became the site for mass graves when Belzec, in
1942, was converted into an extermination camp.

Six hundred thousand lives were snuffed out there, nearly all of them
Jewish. Not everyone went submissively to slaughter. During the process of
deportation from the ghettos of Poland they put up fantastic resistance,
fighting with fists and teeth against machine guns, breaking through the
sides of trucks and trains that raced at speeds of forty-nine kilometers.
The Ukrainian guards on top of the cars machine-gunned those who made the
break. A few survived by feigning death; others, more or less seriously
wounded, were able to join the Partisans in the woods. Those who were
recaptured were almost invariably lined up for mass execution.

Once the deportees arrived in Belzec, there could be little further
resistance. Starvation, illness, physical abuse, degredation numbed them
into torpor. One survivor imagined that she had been moving through a
canvas of fearsome monsters by Hieronymous Bosch.<14> It took little more
than a year, from March 1942 to the spring of 1943, for the Germans to kill
off their Belzec victims."

<14> Greet von Amstel, cited in Presser, Destruction of the Dutch Jews,
     page 494.

Extracted from--------------------------------------------------- 
"THE REDEMPTION OF THE UNWANTED", Abram L.  Sachar (New York: St.
Martin's/Marek, 1983.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

For an extensive bibliography dealing with the Holocaust, and containing over 
1100 citations, contact kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca - it will be sent to you
by return email. Additions to this bibliography are actively solicited.

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Old Frog's Almanac - Public Access UseNet for Central Vancouver Island
     (604) 245-3205 (v32) (604) 245-4366 (2400x4) Waffle XENIX 1.64
Ladysmith, British Columbia, CANADA. kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay)