From: sepstei1@cc.swarthmore.edu (stephen epstein)
Subject: Re: your respond Mr.Steve
Organization: swarthmore college
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 02:27:11 GMT

In article <1992Nov22.135145.45026@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>,
2huxvalved@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes:

> >Lebih baik kalau saya
> >menulis bahasa Ingerris supaya pikiran-pikiran saya diterangkan dengan
> >lebih jelas...First of all I consider myself to be extremely fond of
> >Indonesia-- I am not interested in attacking the people of the country in
> >...................
> 
>      Thanx if you are indeed fond of my country....or it's just a political
> statemant( you know "menyanjung")....God knows! 
>      Just curious...are you Serb decendent ?

If you don't want to take me at my word, fine. It was not intended as a
political statement, but rather because several of the Portuguese posts
earlier were from people who seemed either hostile or at least indifferent
to Indonesia.  I've spent time in Indonesia, I've developed a number of
close Indonesian friends, and I've cared enough about the place to learn
Bahasa Indonesia dan sebanyak mungkin tentang kebudayaan dan kesusasteraan
Indonesia.

And, no, I'm not a Serb descendant.  Would it matter if I were?  What if I
were a Croat or a Bosnian?  Does that give these words more or less
legitimacy? Would it be impossible for a Serb to be against his government?
It wouldn't even give my words more legitimacy if I were to tell you that
six million of my ancestors were annihilated in WW2 because the world did
not intervene in timely fashion.  The important thing is my character and
the ideas I'm trying to argue.  If you don't like them, that is completely
fair.  But you can't simply dismiss what I say on the basis of my
ethnicity;  neither do I dismiss what you say because of yours.  I argue on
the merit of the ideas themselves.
   
> >Many people on this group seem unwilling to accept this.  I can only direct
> >you to try and find out as much as possible here from sources which seem to
> >you to be as objective as possible.
>  
>      hmmm....I like to know how you can judge whether a news source is
> ogjective or not....please tell me..

You're right.  Determining the objectivity of a news source is extremely
difficult.  That is why I said "seem," and why I think people should turn
to as many sources as possible to try to reconstruct what appears to be the
most likely turn of events.  In this case, there are many accounts from
people who don't have the obvious stake in the situation of the Indonesian
gov't or Fretilin.  I would suggest ruling out these two as unbiased
sources of  information and trying to turn elsewhere for accounts of what
is going on.

>      I don't deny that there were and probably are mistreatments in
> my country. But you should remember that those mistreatments are
> commonly committed by irresponsible individuals. Just like the Rodney
> King case......

What if these mistreatments are a result of the systematic planning of
people in power?  How do we, the masses, then combat it, whether in
Indonesia or the U.S.?

And you should know that we, Indonesians oppose mistreat-
> ments (including child abuse, sexual abuse, torturing women.-every 15
> seconds...you know what I mean....).
 
Actually, I'm afraid I don't follow you here.  What are you trying to
insinuate?  That Americans don't oppose mistreatment or that no child abuse
or sexual abuse occurs in Indonesia?

>      Aha...cencorship...please don't teach us...my friend....
 
I'm fully aware of gov't censorship in this country.  The bias in the
reporting of the Gulf War is a good example.  I don't defend it anywhere. I
can still say publicly that I think that U.S. policy is often evil without
worrying that the C.I.A. will carry me away, however.

> >   Just this morning on National Public
> >Radio, which I consider to be the USA's most unimpeachable news source,
> >there was a story about the imprisonment and torture of a leader of the
> >resistance in Dili.
> 
>      Wrong "asummptiom".....torture? what kind of torture...spanking?

I grant you this point; my wording might have misled people: the story I
heard focused on worries that he was being or would be tortured, and not
that it was a confirmed fact.

> >Menurut saya, jauh berbeda sekali di antara Indonesia dan pemerintah
> >Indonesia. This is a critical point, and one that many people have been
> >unable to understand in this discussion about Timtim.  I do not, by a long
> >shot, approve of all of the United States' foreign policy, but I still love
> >my country.
>     
>     Just your false assumption....so...do you completely understand the
> Timor-Timur problem ?  Wow....Wheather you love your country or not, it's
> NOT MY BUSINESS!
> 
 
I don't presume that I completely understand what's going on in Timtim;
it's a very complex situation and what I am urging is that people try to
gather as much information as possible about what is going on from a
variety of sources.  
 
> >  To me it is a highly patriotic act to speak when one's
> >government is acting wrongly.  When the U.S. acts in objectionable,
> >neo-imperialistic ways, I do my best to inform myself about it and to
> 
>     Who knows... that in fact you sat and drank beer when the US INVADED 
> Panama.....
 
I'm happy to discuss our disagreements civilly, but please dispense with
the cheap shots.  You do not know what I was doing when the U.S. invaded
Panama.  You do not know that I was and remain deeply opposed to what the
U.S. government did there.  You do not know that I was out marching against
the U.S.'s actions against Iraq, because I believed-- and still believe--
that the situation could have been resolved without the death of thousands
upon thousands of Iraqi civilians, whose only crime was to have Saddam
Hussein as a leader.

> >educate those around me.  If one does not speak out or opposition to the
> >government is suppressed, that is when 
> >true dangers begin. 
> 
>          Does opposition always brings the TRUTH ?
 
Of course not.  But it's better than sitting idly by, if *to the best of
your knowledge* something wrong is going on. Perhaps the vast majority of
the people of East Timur prefer the situation as it stands.  If you can
demonstrate that to me, I will cease my opposition immediately.  To me,
from all I've been able to determine from the sources I find most credible,
the evidence seems to suggest quite the opposite.

>          Are those around you just (your assumption again) a bunch of
> idiots so that they need to be educated..?
 
Hardly.  But none of us has immediate access to the tremendous amount of
information that exists in the world; I may learn things which are of
importance that I feel should be shared with those around me.  The opposite
is also true; I welcome learning more from those around me.

> >***I should add that I have heard privately (and anonymously) from
> >Indonesians who are concerned about the situation in Timtim, but are afraid
> 
>      Aha...lagu lama........I'm myself say that Indonesian government
> is still improving (still far from being a adil-makmur)
> .....you know Indonesia is a young country....be passion, man
 
Are you saying that you think I'm lying or simply that we should condone
the situation and let the gov't sort things out in its own good time?

> >to speak up for fear of government retaliation.***  Please don't think that
> >those of us who speak up are out to bash Indonesia.  There may be some
> >hot-headed Portuguese who are indeed simply expressing a neo-colonialist
> >mentality, but there are others who merely want to see wrongs righted. I am
>      
>      Retaliation....for what?...if they don't do anything the govt will
> not do anything to them too....kalau mereka cari gara-gara....it's
> another matter.
 
That's right, and if black South Africans don't speak out publicly against
apartheid the gov't won't bother them either.  If the Tibetans just mind
their own business, they need not worry about the Chinese gov't.

>      Talking about bashing....who just bashed whom recently in this
> country....? Or my country is the next one to be bashed ?
> 
> >writing this now not because I hate Indonesia, but because I love the
> >country, and I want to see it made better. I have no stake in this other
> >than a deep-seated desire to see that human beings are treated humanely. 
> 
>      Sanjungan...? lagu lama....but thanx anyway...
>      Look at your backyards my friend....who are treated humanly?
> 
> ....PETS!

That's part of my whole point.  I think the U.S. is very, very far from
perfect, and because I feel concern for this country, I do speak out about
what I see as the many evils that are perpetrated here both by the gov't
and the predominant ethos of white society. 

>      If you indeed love my country...just help us to tell people that
> we're not East Timor problem...tell them also about how we lost millions
> of people during colonialism time, how we kicked their ___, what we
> have contributed to human rights (remember Asia-Afrika conference?) and
> freedom,...etc......thanx in advance
 
Does a gov't have to be 100% right or 100% wrong all the time?  I don't
take anything away from the considerable accomplishments of Indonesia. 
This does not mean, however, that it is acting properly in East Timur as
well.

> >I do value the Indonesian people and their struggle to develop the nation. 
> >I also understand fully that Indonesia is an extremely difficult country to
> >govern and that at this point to allow Timtim independence would create
> >numerous difficulties with other groups, such as the Acehnese, who might
> >clamor for greater autonomy.  Nonetheless, you must remember that Timtim
> 
>     Which Acehnese ?....I have some Acehnese friends and they consider 
> themselves Indonesians....now...I ask you...what is Indonesia ?
 
True , many Acehnese-- probably by far the majority at this point-- quite
happily consider themselves Indonesian.  You must be aware, however, that
there has been a strong separatist movement in Aceh as well.  My point was,
in fact, a concession to the gov't, in recognition of the difficulty of
leading a nation with so many different ethnic groups, some of whom will
want the right of self-determination if the situation changes in Timtim.  I
can understand the gov't's difficulties in this situation, their fear of a
possible Marxist presence in the midst of the Archipelago, etc.  It does
not then follow that the violent suppression which has occurred was the
proper policy. 

> >was indeed invaded by the Indonesian armed forces. Most East Timorese do
> >not want to be part of Indonesia; they had little say in the events of the
> >mid-70's. 
> 
>     Are you an American or "Most East Timorese"? 
 
Of course, I'm not East Timorese, but that doesn't mean I don't have access
to sources which claim that my statement is true.  Perhaps, those sources
are wrong; if so, I will no longer press for autonomy for Timtim.  If you
have statistics other than those of either the Indonesian gov't's or
Fretilin, please cite them here. Would you accept it if a U.N. commission
were to hold a referendum for the people of East Timur?

>     Yap...they had little say...because Portuguese left them ILLITERATE
 
I am absolutely not defending the centuries of Portuguese rule either.

> >This is no different than the idea of the "white man's burden" which
> >colonialists used last century to justify their actions.
> > 
>      How about now ?

In what way is the general call for a group be given the right of
self-determination a reflection of the white man's burden?
 
> >Again, I have no desire to attack anyone here.  I only ask that those of
> >you who are skeptical of what is reported on this group about the problems
> >of East Timur try as far as possible to educate yourselves about the
> >situation while you are out of Indonesia and have access to uncensored news
> >sources.
> 
>     Again, I don't have desire to attack anyone here...just to tell you
> to examine yourself....kata-kata manis isn't it?
 
Believe me, I do look within frequently, both at myself and my country. We
cannot begin to correct ourselves if we don't recognize our faults.
If you can explain to me how there is something morally wrong with my
stand, please do so and I will listen and think about it patiently. If it
is simply that I have incorrect information, I will also be willingly
corrected.

(portion deleted)
 
>     Indeed my friend, your beloved country and also the Indonesian
> people were nervous about the possibility. China was and is communist.
> Vietnam was and is communist, too. The US could be beaten really bad
> if East Timor fell in the hand of marxis Fretelin.....get it ?

Do you think I approve of my government's complicity in this whole affair? 
I condemn the U.S. for standing idly by and allowing this to happen because
it suited their self-interest at the time.
   
>     Remember the Baltics republics who got their independent from
> the Soviet Union ? Then they declared democratic goverments....communist
> was out!   What HAPPENS NOW ? Communist get their feet BACK ! why ?
> If you don't have the answer...go to a tunnel and meditate there..
> And do you know how nervous the Capitol Hill people are now...?
 
I don't have quite the same fear of communism that you do.  I think the
events of the last years have shown that it's a pretty lousy and unworkable
economic system.  I don't think the world's stability is going to be
threatened if Lithuania elects a communist leadership.  What one has to
worry about is if they develop an imperialist mentality, such as the
erstwhile Soviet Union once had.  That would be the danger.

(some deleted)
    
>     oh...ya I let you know a sad story about a friend of mine who is
> a Vietnamese American. He is an engineer. He sent a lot of resumes
> to many companies. One time he went to meet a representative of a
> company. What did she tell my friend ? " We only hire all-American
> workers ". And I saw his eyes were wet after telling me that story.
> What do you think ?

What do you want me to say here?  I'm as appalled as you are.  What if I
tell you that my children will be half-Asian, and that I'm worried too
about the treatment they might receive in this country?  Should I stop
speaking up for what I believe is right internationally simply because
there are so many problems here too?  Maybe you've heard the saying "Think
Globally, Act Locally."  Thankfully, because of technology and an e-mail
network, I can do what I believe is morally right on a global basis, by
sitting and writing right here locally.
 
>   Bagong...the joker
> 
Stephen