HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mmcg@cs.monash.edu.au (Mike  Mc Gaughey)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
Subject: Re: MUD Standardization Perspective
Date: 30 Aug 92 06:14:04 GMT
Organization: Computer Science, Monash University, Australia

demon@sequent.com (Dave Richards) writes:

>The key question in my mind is "when should we standardize".  The obvious
>follow-up might be "What should we standardize".  I'd personally let these
>questions sit on the backburner for a bit.

Well, "Why should we standardise"?

Standardisation means stopping a system at some point in its
evolution.  It seems simpler to just talk about code which currently
runs on "Driver X version y.z" and accept the fact that moving your LPC
to another mud will involve rewriting it a bit.

After all, the only reason for having a standard LPC (syntax, efuns,
etc) is so that people don't have to re-write their code to move it
between muds - but this kind of kills the individuality of a mud,
doesn't it?  I'm sure amylaar much prefers his system of mappings to
the CD version; I much prefer my array extraction syntax to other
people's (not that I know what other people have done here :).  Using
someone else's LPC, or your own LPC elsewhere, simply involves learning
the differences between the two muds - to code effectively, on your new
mud, you need to do this anyway.

The only reason for having a standard _driver_ is so that bugfixes can
be incorporated everywhere (with patch), and new ideas can be
incorporated everywhere (with patch).  But anyone developing new driver
code who is told about a problem and a possible fix will have little
difficulty fixing the bug in his driver.  And anyone running someone
else's driver can get patches from its author (if he adds it).

The bottom line is: different muds are different muds.  If you want
something for _your_ mud, you have to be able to do it yourself, or
know someone with a similar driver who has done it (or will do it) for
you.  If you can't hack C, you should be running someone else's driver
(CD, TMI, DR, etc), and using their upgrades.

Mike.
--
Mike McGaughey			AARNET:	mmcg@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au

"Head stompin', ass kickin', finger licking nastiness"
From: amylaar@mcshh.Hanse.DE (Joern Rennecke)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
Subject: Re: Hack'n'slash not for me
Date: 23 Aug 92 17:10:03 GMT
Organization: Point of Presence & MCS Hamburg

anipa@cs.tut.fi (Niilo Neuvo) writes:

...
>The problem with exec is that if you give it to wizards to be freely
>used you end up with having every wizard as a god. So you need to make
>all vital code uneditable from the mud (this means that all arches and

No. Pretty simple: Either isolate the file access from the player object,
or make exec() test for inheritance of a basic player object, that has
all vital functions defined as nomask.

	Amylaar
From: chena@crs.cl.msu.edu (Antony Chen)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
Subject: Re: Overdrive
Date: 4 Sep 92 02:40:35 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University

mly@sei.cmu.edu (Michael Yacht) writes:

>I have been trying to get to Overdrive for quite some time...any clues as to
>why I cannot connect?

I have better than a clue.  They lost their site.  If you're a sysadmin
and a giving individual, you'll mail me so I can pass it on to Talyessin.
OD has been down for too long!
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
From: guddt@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (David Bennett)
Subject: Re: SW Quests?
Organization: University of Western Australia
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 08:48:19 GMT

guile@engin.umich.edu (Kenneth K Lee) writes:


>From: biff@cd.chalmers.se (Not Quite Lars)
>Subject: QUEST SOLUTIONS FOR SHATTERED WORLDS
>Keywords: solutions,quest
>Date: 29 Aug 92 11:18:52 GMT
>Followup-to: rec.games.mud.lp
>Distribution: world
>Organization: Brotherhood of Evil Mudders/Chalmers chapter
>Lines: at least 4


>SOLUTIONS TO SHATTERED WORLD QUESTS


Congratulations, you win the stupidest person on the usenet award.
As well as the award for the most dirty trick so far played in this
newsgroup.  Up till this point it has been pretty nasty sure, but my not
friend, you just won.

David.
[DDT] Pink fish forever.
-- 
  David Bennett,  guddt@uniwa.uwa.oz.au | University Computer Club
     Where Pink fish swim backwards.    | c/o Guild of Undergraduates
These words I am singing now mean nothing more than meow to an animal - TMBG
Disclaimer: Any spelling mistakes in this article are all entirly my fault.  Any grammer errors spotted in this article were put there because I could.
From: jlw@hebrew.cc.columbia.edu (James Waldrop)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
Subject: Re: Subobjects
Date: 29 Aug 92 05:29:00 GMT

mmcg@cs.monash.edu.au (Mike  Mc Gaughey) writes:
>jlw@HEBREW.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU (James Waldrop) writes:
>>You're implying that this isn't happening.  Have you ever talked to me
>>about the MudOS driver, or TMI in general?
>
>Well, *I* have.  You knew fuck all about it, since Buddha did
>most of the interesting bits (you hadn't even *read* it!
>Jesus, and you want people to *listen* to you?).

I talked to you about Buddha losing all the files when he went on his
rampage at the end of May.  In fact NO ONE at TMI during that time
*except* Buddha knew where most of the bin commands, log files, and
include files were hidden.  I don't feel like going into the circumstances
surrounding the situation, but suffice it to say that I got very frustrated
trying to debug the finger command one afternoon, and logged into LPSwat
to relax, at which point we struck up our conversation.

I'd appreciate it if you'd confine your remarks to things about which
you have a clear memory.

As far as Buddha having done most of the interesting parts, you'll have
to define interesting.  I do not plan on trying to convince you, or anyone
else, that my contributions to TMI have been either more or less than
Buddha's.

Sulam
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
From: geoff@cs.monash.edu.au (Geoff Wong)
Subject: Re: Driver additions
Organization: Computer Science, Monash University, Australia
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 04:50:20 GMT

uekleinf@mcs.Drexel.edu (Erik Kleinfelder) writes:

>say, I want this TMI specialty that is this efficient and this CD piece of
>code that is real fast compared to TMI's, and then have to build the driver
>they want.  How about one driver at peak performance?????

Define peak performance and I'll show you a different definition,
a different machine etc. It's not possible - so get a set up that you're
happy with and stop whinging.

geoff
--
Ho Hum.
Life is like that.
From: dwarren@csws3.ic.sunysb.edu (Douglas Warren)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
Subject: Re: MudOS a ripoff?
Date: 27 Aug 92 14:06:00 GMT
Organization: State University of New York at Stony Brook

Okay, lets see if I get the jist of this debate... Are you (not really you 
Dwanye, you are just supporting your work) arguing that MudOS should not be
called MudOS?  What should they do then, call it LPMUD 6.6.6?  The driver is
being released, it needs a name, that name should not be LPMUD since it is not
made by Lars...  As to how good it is, well let the people who are going to
run it decide that, don't just flame it without you ever running it yourself.
As to what decides a name cheange, even if only one line was changed (Which I
see is not the case) As long as they give credit to the original programmers,
there should be no problem, thats why the stuff is in Public Domain to begin
with; so that others can work on and expand what the author originally did...
Now, a new product is being released into the Public Domain, for just the same
purpose!  I see nothing wrong with this, I just see it as a continuation of the
evolution of the Multi-User Dungeon...
From: tundra@wyatt.ksu.ksu.edu (Daniel Gene McDaniel)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
Subject: Re: SW Quests?
Date: 30 Aug 1992 19:48:21 -0500
Organization: Kansas State University
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: wyatt.ksu.ksu.edu


chena@crs.cl.msu.edu (Antony Chen) writes:
>mmcg@cs.monash.edu.au (Mike  Mc Gaughey) writes:

>>SOLUTIONS TO SHATTERED WORLD QUESTS

>I know that :) means a smiley and :P is someone stickin' their tongue
>out, but how do you do the face for someone laughing their ass off?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
                                |
               I thought this was worth repeating...


===============================================================================
--Tundra/Dan |            "Nanner! Nanner!"    
             |            -- Shaun M. McGee aka Predator
===============================================================================
From: beeman@cats.ucsc.edu (Adam Beeman)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
Subject: Re: Anyway to find *all* instances of a clone object?
Date: 1 Sep 92 16:34:13 GMT
Organization: University of California; Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: am.ucsc.edu


In article <1992Sep1.043438.885@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz> russells@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz (Russell Street) writes:
>(Another LPC question)
>Is there *easy* anyway find all instances of a cloned object
>(say a monster)?
>

If you're using the MudOS LPmud driver:
object *them = children("/obj/bag");
this would find all clones of /obj/bag.

Otherwise, I don't think it's particularly easy.




-- 
#include <std/disclaimer.h>
#define NAME	"Adam Beeman"
#define EMAIL	"beeman@{cats, ucscb}.ucsc.edu"
inherit SIGNATURE; // enhanced .sig virus
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
From: anipa@cs.tut.fi (Niilo Neuvo)
Subject: Re: **** TOP 10 LPMUDs ****
Organization: Tampere U of Technology, Finland
	<ANIPA.92Aug24195718@sotka.cs.tut.fi>
	<1992Aug26.120047.318@engage.pko.dec.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 15:05:57 GMT

oakley@contra.enet.dec.com (The Zeeker) writes:

> In article <ANIPA.92Aug24195718@sotka.cs.tut.fi>, anipa@cs.tut.fi (Niilo Neuvo) writes...
> >For the players a crash is a crash. Current version of BatMUD's driver
> >does not crash no matter what happens to the master object (even if
> >the updated version is buggy). I see nothing evil in fixing bugs like
> >that.
> 	Either that or eliminate the crashing problem completely
> 	by coding object-savable lockers to store things when you leave
> 	or if the game crashes, you HAVE something.

Why not have both?

We have a relatively bug free driver AND we have reboot proof chests
in player castles (and in a hotel).

++Anipa, you should play batmud, before suggesting anything on here
--
      NN   NN  NN   NN  NNNNNNNN
    NNNN    N  NN    N  NNNNNN
  NNNNNN  N    NN  N    NNNN
NNNNNNNN  NN   NN  NN   NN
--
From: beeman@cats.ucsc.edu (Adam Beeman)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
Subject: Re: * PEACE PLEASE! *
Date: 29 Aug 92 05:38:39 GMT
Organization: University of California; Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: am.ucsc.edu


In article <michael.715065053@pv0237.vincent.iastate.edu> michael@iastate.edu (Michael M. Huang) writes:
>
>look at the dick who's talking.  
>
>-michael

Ah, aren't you from Shattered Worlds?
Hey, can you tell me if they *really* exist anymore?
I kinda suspect they don't, and it's a big scam where people claim
to work on this mud that doesn't really exist, but does everything
*much* better than we could *ever* hope to... again, it's all in the
(trivial) implementation.

>
>-- 
>Michael Ming-Yang Huang                                michael@iastate.edu
>PV Student Dev. Group &                                (michaelhg@ids.net)
>Carver/Vis. Lab Assist         "A mind is such a terrible thing to waste."
>Iowa State Univ, Ames, IA      I speak for myself an' not of my employers.

;-)


-- 
#include <std/disclaimer.h>
#define NAME	"Adam Beeman"
#define EMAIL	"beeman@{cats, ucscb}.ucsc.edu"
inherit SIGNATURE; // enhanced .sig virus
From: ak853@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Eric Blade)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
Subject: Re: People, People..
Date: 4 Sep 1992 06:00:29 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: ak853@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Eric Blade)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, michael@iastate.edu (Michael M. Huang) says:

>In <18374fINNnqn@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> ak853@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Eric Blade) writes:
>
>Risking another flame war... But, let me stop laughing first.  Are we
>suppose to be impressed by your astronomical time that you've spent 
>on your mudlib to take pity on you that you won't even include your
>own creations?  Oh my!  Several hours?  Several days?  What am I thinking?
>You've spent so much time on it!  And considering that other mudlibs only
>cost people several months of work.  What are we thinking?
>
	I was only including time spent programming.  I am a busy man, I
have a job, a life, et al.  Over the past 3 months I have spent
practically NONE coding.  I do have time now, however,  And I did base
it off an already existing mudlib, that no one ever saw, but was
created.  And since I've never had a site to test my code on (except the
ones the administration of the machine cut my access completely on, and
then took over the mud and tried to run it themselves)... that removes a
large amount of time, also.
   My POINT there is that I will NOT try to make it what I see as
correct.  Well, not tottally *grin*.  I only wish to do it for the good
of the world. (laugh)  
   Seriously, though, I would like to see this.  If you don't want to
see a bunch fo people tryingto make some kind of standard, then DON'T
USE IT.  It's that simple.
  You have a choice to not use something. This IS a basically free
world.  And no one is FORCING you to play specific muds are they? You
may hate Genocide, where as that's all I play anymore.  You may love
Genesis, where I can't stand it.  I don't know.
    Why flame people for what they want to do? Why not just disinvolve
yourself from it?

>STOP STANDARDIZATION!  MUDDERS OF THE WORLD!  DIVERSE!
>
>-michael
>
>-- 
>Michael Ming-Yang Huang                                michael@iastate.edu
>Project Vincent Student Dev. &                         (michaelhg@ids.net)
>Carver/Vis. Lab Assist         "A mind is such a terrible thing to waste."
>Iowa State Univ, Ames, IA      I speak for myself an' not of my employers.
>
From: djohnson@cs.ucsd.edu (Darin Johnson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
Subject: Re: **** TOP 10 LPMUDs ****
Date: 25 Aug 92 23:13:33 GMT
Organization: =CSE Dept., U.C. San Diego

>but the people at TMI I believe
>are NOT doing this to "get them some fame" but to make the best playing
>environment possible.

But TMI is *not* a playing environment.  It's an environment for
people to program LPC in, show off nifty toys, ask questions, etc.
There are of holes in TMI when it comes to using it for a game.

>>driver by Lars, 3.1.2, was chock full of bugs and a lot of strange function
>>calls, but TMI cleaned all that up.

Which is why 3.1.3 should come out.  Every version of 3.0 had fewer
bugs and more functionality, which would have kept going if Lars
hadn't run out of steam.  Instead, there are drivers branching off
in different directions, keeping these bug fixes to themselves.

-- 
Darin Johnson
djohnson@ucsd.edu
  - I'm not a well adjusted person, but I play one on the net.
From: mmcg@cs.monash.edu.au (Mike  Mc Gaughey)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
Subject: Re: * PEACE PLEASE! *
Date: 30 Aug 92 04:59:45 GMT
Organization: Computer Science, Monash University, Australia

beeman@cats.ucsc.edu (Adam Beeman) writes:

>This doesn't prove ANYTHING!
>Anyone can write an motd and post it to news.   You haven't proven a damn
>thing.  Sorry, bud, I refuse to accept this "evidence"...

Tee hee!  Well Fuck You!

>>I should point out that like all the other postings
>>originating from here, Wiggs is a figment of our
>>collective hallucination...
>>

>Just like your mud.

A simple existence proof for Shattered World:

1) TMI claims CD is not the best mud around, because TMI has done some
   things better.  This is clearly correct, as TMI has some rather
   talented people, a few of whom actually know what they are talking
   about.

2) CD claims TMI is not the best mud around, because CD has done some
   things better.  This is clearly correct, as CD has some rather talented
   people, a few of whom actually know what they are talking about.

3) There are other drivers around, and most of them are available by
   FTP.  But the people at CD and TMI will have examined these muds, and
   incorporated their good ideas into their respective drivers.
   Therefore, there can be no publically available drivers better than
   CD's or TMI's.

4) Since programming a mud is an intensely personal thing, anyone
   maintining an extremely good driver will occasionally post about it.

By lemmas 1 and 2, we know that neither CD's nor TMI's driver is the
best.  By lemma 3, we know that there are no ftp'able drivers which
surpass either one (so DR, etc, are out).  Therefore, there must exist
at least one mud which is better than either of them, and, by lemma 3,
better than all publically available drivers (since it is better than
CD and TMI, and they are better than other drivers).

But by lemma 4, we know that the authors of any really good driver will
post about it.  The only people posting about the wonders of their non-
distributed driver are Geoff and me.

Therefore, Shattered's game driver exists and is the best one (un)available.

Cheers,

    Mike.

NB: I left out all the bits about 'assume there is a finite lattice
defined on the domain of "how good" a driver is, and that the infix
comparison operator "is better than" forms a complete partial ordering
over the lattice, and that the lattice structure admits a single least
upper bound', and so on.  Such issues are trivial, and their
implications are obvious; to explicitly include it would, of course, be
an insult to your intelligence.
--
Mike McGaughey			AARNET:	mmcg@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au

"Head stompin', ass kickin', finger licking nastiness"
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
From: bcranton@coal.WPI.EDU (Brian W. Cranton)
Subject: Hack'n'slash tread
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 23:30:10 GMT

Along the lines of the Hack'n'Slash tread, I thought I would put my $0.02
in:

In my OPINION, the reason there is so much hack'n'slash is that it is the only
option allowed to a player for advancement.  If you are a fighter, thief,
magic user, or cleric and the only way to get experience is to kill, then
people will kill.

Ideas I have had:

    Have magic last a finite length of time before it goes non-magical.
    Instead have an enchanter class which must enchant it back to being
    magical.  Exp for this class could be based off of attempts/practice
    at enchanting.

    This has always been a favorite of mine, have a cityguard class.
    A class where your fighting skill does not go up but your political
    and strategic skill does.  These people get exp for every round in
    which no violence occurs in the town and get a set of several cityguards
    assigned to them (say 5 or 10 guards).  If someone is going to
    kill the drunk, then a guard (or guards) need to be assigned to him.  If
    cityguards are being slain, then they need to be grouped together for
    protection, etc;.  Maybe the higher the level the more cityguards you
    get to control (one per level).  Give no exp for killing, give exp for
    non-violent rounds in the patrol area.  When you get to the top you
    could even become mayor.

    A sick idea:  An undertaker class.  You get exp for burying all the
    dead corpses others lay around.  You get money and exp for each burial
    (say 'you get paid 50 coins from the life insurance').  Add bonuses like
    if a player corpse gets buried with equipment, then the player character
    automatically gets that equipment back.  Allow the undertaker to have a
    'sixth sense' which increases with level where he can detect every creature
    which dies in a certain range and who killed the creature.  Make creatures
    automatically fear the undertaker as a sign of recent death (Give him
    a fear spell), etc;.

    As far as existing characters go, clerics and magic user should recieve
    exp just for the act of spell casting (isn't casting experience or
    pracatice to them?).  A cleric should get exp for healing and armor
    spells, cure spells.  Same with magic users.  Thieves should get exp
    for stealing, hiding, sneaking, etc;.  Fighters, not too much you can
    do here, maybe give them points for standing in a guard mode.

Some people might say new non-violent classes would not be popular.  So what,
they are not intended to replace the other classes but to supplement them.
Only use creativity in making new classes so that they are interesting, non-
hack and slash type.  Get the kill-kill-kill mentality out of your brains.
Killing is a part of LPmuds, but it need not be the principle part.

                                        Brian Cranton






Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
From: mmcg@cs.monash.edu.au (Mike  Mc Gaughey)
Subject: Re: Virtual Rooms and Objects (really: Saved sub-objects)
Organization: Computer Science, Monash University, Australia
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 10:24:24 GMT

genlpc@pip.shsu.edu () writes:

>What did you do about the call_out's and heart_beat's in the objects
>that were saved?

We don't save them - nor do we save light levels, etc.  Instead, we
have a couple of new lfuns, called just before saving an object
(query_save_ok()), and just before restoring one.  They can be used to
set it into a "saveable" state, etc.  It's ugly, but works surprisingly
well - most things inherit /std/object, armor, or weapon.

I guess we weren't looking for perfection - just a quick hack to make
sure that noone could ever have any reason for hassling us about things
they lost in a crash.  It was amusing to watch newbies get on straight
after and scream about losing a hauberk, some plate, etc, without realising
that all these items were in their inventory :)

Mike.
--
Mike McGaughey			AARNET:	mmcg@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au

"Head stompin', ass kickin', finger licking nastiness"
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
From: geoff@cs.monash.edu.au (Geoff Wong)
Subject: Re: Proof of Existence.
Organization: Computer Science, Monash University, Australia
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 01:55:41 GMT

mmcg@cs.monash.edu.au (Mike  Mc Gaughey) writes:

>A simple existence proof for Shattered World:
>[a clear cut totally non sensical proof]
>    Mike.

>NB: I left out all the bits about 'assume there is a finite lattice
>defined on the domain of "how good" a driver is, and that the infix
>an insult to your intelligence.

Of course you should now all realise that mike is simply an
artificially intelligent in game object (in our mud that is) which
simply reads a random selection of news articles and reprocesses
them and replies.

geoff
---

"I don't understand", said the scientist, "Why you lemmings all rush to the
sea and drown yourselves". "How curious", said the lemming, "The one thing I
don't  understand is why you human beings don't" -- James Thurber.


Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
From: mmcg@cs.monash.edu.au (Mike  Mc Gaughey)
Subject: Re: saving object pointers
Organization: Computer Science, Monash University, Australia
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 21:42:02 GMT

jlw@HEBREW.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU (James Waldrop) writes:

>>What do you think object pointers are FOR?

>To point to objects, can't you read Mike?  If the object isn't there,
>what the hell are you going to point to?

Waldrop, you fucking moron, can't you READ?

The original post said:

> When a restore_object was done, an object would be cloned up
> for each of the subobject values in the file, and restored
> into.  Thus, players would get back all their items, and could
> even be restored back to the room they were in before the crash
> if we wanted to.

Dickhead.
--
Mike McGaughey			AARNET:	mmcg@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au

"Head stompin', ass kickin', finger licking nastiness"
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp