HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: steven@spxtech.qc.ca (Steve Potter)
Newsgroups: can.politics,can.general,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: Legalized Discrimination in Quebec
Date: 15 Dec 92 18:43:05 GMT
Organization: Securiplex Technologies Inc., Montreal, Canada
X-Bytes: 1595

From article <1992Dec15.005850.1@uwovax.uwo.ca>, by 4224_5201@uwovax.uwo.ca
John LaRocque argues:-

> In article <1992Dec14.110334.29828@spxtech.qc.ca>, steven@spxtech.qc.ca
> Steve Potter) writes:
>
> [.....]
>
> Day in and day out, count on Steve to start a thread on English education.
> B-)

Well I try. :-)

>
> ..... having a second language is helpful but not the necessity .....
> 

Having a second, or third, or fourth, ..., language provides better 
understanding of other cultures and, I think, provides a better understanding
of the human condition in general.

>
> [.....]
>
> As for English Quebecers, they should stop coupling their justified
> demands for equal treatment with the whole Quebec sovereingty question.

Not me. (Meaning I haven't made that "coupling")

>
> [.....]
>
>       The future of an independent Quebec is also that of a vibrant,
> open people of many heritages who belong .....
>

:-)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

& I've got an elixir for eternal life for sale! :-)))))))))

I suppose one can hope.

>      The tired linguistic debate has to end, and the real decision time
> has to begin. No longer French vs English, but a reawakened Quebec 
> slowly reasserting its rights as a people.
         ^^^^^^^^^^^

When did Quebec stop "asserting"? :-)

-- 
  ///==================================================================\\\
  ||| Steve Potter:         steven%spxtech@CAM.ORG                     |||
  ||| Expertise/Experience: Computer Systems Engineering / Real Ale /  |||
  |||                       Politics in Education in Quebec            |||
Xref: sparky can.politics:10715 can.general:5947 soc.culture.canada:9352
Newsgroups: can.politics,can.general,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: Legalized Discrimination in Quebec
From: bcrock@happy.nuts.almanac.bc.ca (Brad Crockett)
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 92 13:31:24 PST
Organization: Private system in Duncan, BC, Canada

emd@ham.almanac.bc.ca writes:

> Since English IS, despite the allegations of Denis et al, one of the two 
> official languages of Canada, in which Quebec is still a part of, there 
> is no valid reason the Quebec government should continue to do this. 

Quebecois will dispute your assertion that Quebec is a part of
Canada.


Brad Crockett, Duncan, British Columbia, Canada
INTERNET: bcrock@happy.nuts.almanac.bc.ca
     CIS: 72570.2154@compuserv.com
Newsgroups: can.politics,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.australian
From: g9rwaigh@cdf.toronto.edu (Rosemary Waigh)
Subject: Re: Do we really need the monarchy?
Organization: University of Toronto Computing Disciplines Facility
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 23:37:08 GMT

In article <gPBmVB4w165w@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca> yadallee@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca (Dave Shariff Yadallee) writes:
>Time and time again, I have proposed a
>representative government that would be directly responible to God, Queen and
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^                                                 ^^^  ^^^^^
>country on a VERY LARGE SCALE! It is time to consider who our friends are!!

Judging from the responses your postings on this subject usually get, a
government accountable to "God" and the Queen would not be representative.

Ro
-- 
Rosemary Waigh             Undergraduate, Computer Science / Linguistics
g9rwaigh@cdf.utoronto.ca   University of Toronto
	"Looking at the Earth from afar you realize it is too small
	for conflict and just big enough for co-operation."  Yuri Gagarin
Newsgroups: can.politics,can.general,soc.culture.canada
From: 4224_5201@uwovax.uwo.ca (John LaRocque)
Subject: Re: Legalized Discrimination in Quebec
Organization: University of Western Ont, London
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 17:08:16 GMT

In article <1992Dec17.112805.7721@spxtech.qc.ca>, steven@spxtech.qc.ca (Steve Potter) writes:
> From article <1992Dec16.174833.1@uwovax.uwo.ca>, by 4224_5201@uwovax.uwo.ca (John LaRocque):
>>
>> Without money, power, influence or electoral clout, the only thing that
>> can keep a community is mandated laws that "preserve" a particular culture.
> 
> OK, let's draft some laws in Quebec to "preserve" the English culture in
> this province - at less than 10% of the population they don't have the
> "money, power, or influence" anymore - and they certainly don't have the
> "electoral clout"! :-)

Why draft new laws when removing current restrivive laws would do the trick.
As I have said before, legalizing the "preservation" of cultures assumes
that cultures belong in a museum. 

Anyways, I'm happy to be back reading your posts again.

> Salud, John!

Salut, Steve 

> -- 
>   ///==================================================================\\\
>   ||| Steve Potter:         steven%spxtech@CAM.ORG                     |||
>   ||| Expertise/Experience: Computer Systems Engineering / Real Ale /  |||
>   |||                       Politics in Education in Quebec            |||
-- 

John P. LaRocque
vader@uwo.ca
University of Western Ontario
London, Ontario


"Urk..urk..."
"Apology accepted, Captain Needa", Darth Vader
Newsgroups: can.politics,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.australian
From: dj@ekcolor.ssd.kodak.com (Dave Jones)
Subject: Re: Do we really need the monarchy?
Followup-To: can.politics,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.australian
Organization: Vonnegut Tent Rentals, Inc.
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL7]
Distribution: can
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 14:23:42 GMT

emd@ham.almanac.bc.ca wrote:
> yadallee@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca (Dave Shariff Yadallee) writes:
> >  In short, /i say let all the people under the God-conttolled domain come
> > together and work together for the each ohters benefit, Not as a hierachy, bu
> > as first among equals.
> > 
> > BTW, all you fanatics trying to draft me for the British throne, I nedd a VER
> > GOOD reason for excepting the candidacy otherwise, I will decline.
> 
> Nope, you're disqualified. Potential candidates must have demonstrated 
> the ability to read, write complete sentences and spell. You fail on all 
> counts, Dave. 
> 
> :-) :-)

On the other hand he shows great promise as a potential Vice President of 
the United States of America....

--
||------------------------------------------------------------------------
||Dave Jones (dj@ekcolor.ssd.kodak.com)|Eastman Kodak Co. Rochester, NY  |
Newsgroups: can.politics,can.general,soc.culture.canada
From: craig@cattnts.canada.ncr.com (Craig Campbell)
Subject: Re: Legalized Discrimination in Quebec
Organization: AT&T / NCR Canada Ltd., Toronto, Canada
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 13:49:43 GMT

In article <Bz97n1.DC8@ireq.hydro.qc.ca> beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard) writes:
>In article <12DEC92.14087944.0063@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA> O2NY <O2NY@UNB.CA> writes:

>>(ii) the UN has declared the Quebec legislation unfair and oppressive
>>    to minorities in Quebec.
>
>What did they say when the majority was oppressed?

Strong allegations.  Oppressed by whom?  What organization?

>>(iii) the French culture cannot use the excuse that there culture is
>>    in danger, because they have sufficient population to maintain it
>>    already.

>Why are francophones out of Quebec so afraid of Quebec secession?
>They know they will disappear as a strong cultural group.  Until
>1976, the % of francos in Quebec was reducing by 1.5% each 10 years.
>Since the majority of anglophones and allophones are in Montreal,
>this was leading to the main town being in one language and all the
>other parts of country in another.  

Percent is one way to look at it, but I suspect that the raw numbers would
convey more meaningful data.


>  \_\    Denis Beauregard  *  internet:beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca

Merry Christmas,
craig
-- 
Craig Campbell		|	These opinions are entirely the result of a 
Systems Engineer	|	small butterfly crashing into the far side
NCR Canada,		|	of the planet.  Chaos Rules.
an AT&T Company		|	I speak for no one, except, possibly, myself.
Xref: sparky can.politics:10732 can.general:5958 soc.culture.canada:9365
From: steven@spxtech.qc.ca (Steve Potter)
Newsgroups: can.politics,can.general,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: Legalized Discrimination in Quebec
Date: 14 Dec 92 16:03:34 GMT
Organization: Securiplex Technologies Inc., Montreal, Canada
X-Bytes: 719

From article <Bz416x.Ax3@ireq.hydro.qc.ca>, by beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard):
>
> Beautiful, but you never answered my question about books.
> Having school in French and books in English is pervert, no?
> 

Denis has a valid point here.

For an officially bilingual country, why isn't more effort put into making
more books and other educational resource material available in the French
language?

-- 
  ///==================================================================\\\
  ||| Steve Potter:         steven%spxtech@CAM.ORG                     |||
  ||| Expertise/Experience: Computer Systems Engineering / Real Ale /  |||
  |||                       Politics in Education in Quebec            |||
Newsgroups: can.politics
From: beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard)
Subject: Re: Nous les colonises (etait Re: Welcome to Quebec/repressed li
Organization: Institut de recherche d'Hydro-Quebec, Varennes, Canada
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 19:43:30 GMT

In article <18DEC92.13771437.0082@VM1.MCGILL.CA> CZ94 <CZ94@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA> writes:
>In article <1992Dec17.202335.16330@sobeco.com> rcroteau@sobeco.com (r.croteau) writes:
>>
>> Pauvre, pauvre de petit moi, je ne suis qu'un petit colonise(ou du
>>moins j'ai ce reflexe).  Je n'ai fait que repondre et exprimer mes opinions
>>en anglais parce
>>
>>1) Je sais que la plupart des francophones,sur le net, sont bilingues,
>> donc de demontrer a nos amis anglophones que nous sommes plus
>> tolerants qu'eux.
>
>Voulez-vous dire que tous les francophones sont plus tolerants que
>tous les anglophones?  Il me semble evident que c'est faux.  Voulez-
>vous dire que le francophone moyen est plus tolerant que l'anglophone
>moyen?  Il se peut que ce soit vrai, mais il me semble qu'une telle
>donnee est parfaitement inutile.  Commment allez-vous vous en servir?
>Si vous me rencontrez, vous direz-vous:  "C'est un anglo.  Il doit
>etre intolerant."?

Le meilleur usage: se defendre quand les CHQiens accusent les Quebecois
d'etre racistes et intolerants.

-- 
  \_\    Denis Beauregard  *  internet:beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca
 /   \   Ge'ne'alogiste des familles : Beauregard/Jarret/Jarest/Vincent
J   __>  Un Que'bec renouvele' dans une Ame'rique renove'e
\_.-===  Ope'rateur de "Racines du Que'bec" (514) 922-9636 BBS/Genealogie
Newsgroups: can.politics,soc.culture.british
From: gleeson@mundil.cs.mu.OZ.AU (Red Mountain)
Subject: Re: Do we really need the monarchy?
Organization: Computer Science, University of Melbourne, Australia
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 01:11:23 GMT

Could you please edit your Newsgroups: line and keep this out of
soc.culture.australian.

Thanks,
Marty.
---------------------=============***O***=============-------------------------
Martin J. Gleeson  | Computer Science, Melbourne Uni, Oz |    ...  __o    Outta
gleeson@mundil.cs.mu.oz.au |     E Pluribus Unix         |  ...   -\<,       my
"We gladly feast on those who would subdue us." - Addams |  ....(_)/(_)..  way!
 "I can't give you brains, but I can give you a diploma." - The Wizard of Oz
---------------------=============***O***=============-------------------------
Newsgroups: can.politics
From: CZ94 <CZ94@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA>
Subject: Re: French schools in Manitoba
Organization: McGill University
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 19:56:42 GMT

In article <5411@disuns2.epfl.ch> riese@litsun.epfl.ch (Marc Riese) writes:
>
>Tom Box a ecrit :
>>some quick research shows that
>>the Manitoba Ministry of Education and Training has a Bureau
>>de l'education francaise, headed by an assistant deputy minister.
>>This bureau has its own Curriculum Development and Implementation
>>Branch, Educational Support Services Branch, Official Language Programs
>>and Administrative Services Branch, and Libraries and Materials
>>Production Branch.  So it's clear there are plenty of francophone
>>educational bureaucrats in Manitoba.  I hope they have at least
>>a few schools under their jurisdiction :-).
>
>Selon ce que j'ai oui dire, le gouvernement manitobain refuse toujours
>de mettre un franco-manitobain au controle du dossier d'education
>francaise a la province. L'"etablissement" a toujours ete WASP,
>et un changement n'est pas pour demain.

Le sous-ministre adjoint a la tete du Bureau de l'education francaise
s'appelle Guy Roy.  Les directeurs des quatre secteurs du bureau
s'appellent Gilbert Rosset, Henri Grimard, Roland Pantel, et
Arsene Huberdeau.  J'ignore s'ils sont de "vrais" franco-manitobains,
mais ce ne sont pas des noms a consonnance WASP.

Tom Box
CZ94@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA

Xref: sparky can.politics:10958 can.general:6099 soc.culture.canada:9554
From: CZ94@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA (CZ94)
Newsgroups: can.politics,can.general,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: Legalized Discrimination in Quebec
Date: 20 Dec 92 19:06:24 GMT
Organization: McGill University

In article <1992Dec19.204155.1@uwovax.uwo.ca> 4224_5201@uwovax.uwo.ca (John LaRocque) writes:
>
>After the Conquest, we were canadiens and you were British. After
>Confederation, we were canadiens francais and you were British Canadians.
>After WW II we were canadiens francais and you were English Canadians.
>After Pearson, we called ourselves Quebecois in Quebec, and you called
>yourselves anglophone Canadians and us francophone Canadians. We have always
>been different.
>
John, if I remember correctly from a previous posting, you were born
and raised in London, Ont.  Your mother was a unilingual anglophone
and your father was an ex-Quebecois who wanted you brought up in
English.  (I'm working from memory, so I apologize if I've got any
of this wrong.)  Now you identify yourself as Canadien/Canadien francais
/Quebecois, and suggest that makes you fundamentally different from
English Canadians.  I'm curious as to why you feel this way.  In
particular, why does your father's heritage have so much greater
effect on you than that of your mother, or the environment in which
you grew up?

I hope this doesn't come across as a thinly-disguised flame, or a
purely rhetorical question intended only to put you down.  I'm
sincerely curious as to why you feel French Canadian/Quebecois.

I'm also curious about your use of "we" and "you" in reference to
the period immediately following the Conquest.  Do you really
feel a sense of identification with the Canadiens of that epoch?
How far back in time does this sense of identification extend?
When you read about the Battle of Hastings, do you think of
Guillaume as "us" and Harold as "them"?

Tom Box
CZ94@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA
Newsgroups: can.politics
From: cbbrowne@csi.uottawa.ca (Christopher Browne)
Subject: Cutting Deficits/Debts
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, University of Ottawa
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 16:25:14 GMT


If people want to cut the deficits/debts, they're going to have to
start looking at the OTHER levels of government.  In the aggregate,
there's probably MORE wastage at this point at the provincial and
municipal levels than there is at the federal level.  There's a lot
more watchdogs on the feds, and EVERYBODY in Canada gripes when they
waste money.

The deficits that REALLY need to be attacked at this point are the
provincial ones.

The Federal government could "solve" all of its financial problems,
and we'd still be in a bad mess because of the other levels of
government.

-- 
Christopher Browne                |     PGP 2.0 key available
cbbrowne@csi.uottawa.ca           |===================================
University of Ottawa              |  The Personal Computer:  Colt 45
Master of System Science Program  |  of the Information Frontier
Xref: sparky can.politics:10838 can.general:6032 soc.culture.canada:9433
From: duquet@astro.phy.ulaval.ca (Jean-Remi Duquet)
Newsgroups: can.politics,can.general,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: Legalized Discrimination in Quebec
Date: 16 Dec 92 15:55:35 GMT
Organization: Universite Laval, Ste-Foy, Qc, Canada

In article <15DEC92.13491513.0077@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA> O2NY@UNB.CA (O2NY000) writes:
>[lots of stuff deleted]
>You should have positive measures to encourage french, not negative
>measures to discourage english. Negative measures have a way of
>backfiring. You could have simply done something like increase
>government funding to french universities. Cheap university will
>encourage people to take french primairy and secondary school.
>No english school graduate could go to a french university, they
>would have to go to french school. Please note that in this option
>english is not discouraged, french is encouraged. 

It's nice to see some constructive comments once in a while. 
Unfortunately, I don't think this would do any good. First, you
will probably agree that increasing funding ONLY to french
universities would be seen as another oppressive and "racist"
measure against anglo quebecers. I wouldn't like it in any case,
and McGill and Concordia students would not appreciate either.

But more to the point, I don't think this kind of (Reagan-like ?) 
"trickle-down" strategy would not have much effect at the level of primairy 
schools. Cheap university will only encourage more people to go to 
french universities, where most books are in English anyway. (you can also
write your thesis in English if you want). The only thing you'd need is a
"functional" understanding of french so you can communicate with your
teachers and answer exam questions (except of course in education, translation,
literature...). 

Moreover, only a small part of the population make it through secondary and 
CEGEP. (is the figure higher for anglos ? I'd be tempted to say yes...)
How big will they care if french university is free when it's time to send 
their 5 year old kid to kindergarten ?

-----
Jean-Remi Duquet
Physics dept.
Universite Laval
Quebec

" Les chiffres sont aux statisticiens/politiciens/sociologues ce que
les lampadaires sont aux ivrognes; ils servent plus a les soutenir
qu'a les eclairer."
Newsgroups: can.politics
From: golchowy@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy)
Subject: Re: Monetary "theory"
Organization: University of Toronto Chemistry Department
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 07:24:28 GMT

In article <1992Dec18.053330.7018@bmerh85.bnr.ca> myhui@bnr.ca (Michael Hui) writes:
>In article <1992Dec17.224939.21817@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca> golchowy@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy) writes:
>>The more debt we accumulate, the more sovereignty we surrender...
>>...we either impose austerity, an enlightened austerity, on ourselves,
>>or we not are far from having a brutal one imposed on us.
>
>How about both an austerity and an aggresive government led
>program of economic recovery and growth to bring revenues
>back to an acceptable level to pay off the debt?
>

The moment the government goes on another spending binge, beyond
a Clinton-like stimulus 

(a Clinton-like stimulus in Canada is
is about $3 billion dollars...absolute maximum $6 billion...
the maximum stimulus that they might possibly consider from
the Clinton economic conference was $60 billion dollars, and
more likely $30 billion...the Tories, with the fixed link and
new highway construction and airport renovations announce in
the recent economic statement, already is close to $2 billion),

long-term interest rates will rise and choke off any recovery
before it gets started.  

(Note: Clinton plans deficit reduction
in the medium term...i.e. in the second half of his first term...
and in the campaign, his plan was supposed to cut it in half)
This is a lot more austerity than even the Tories have and
plan to exercise, as they seem content to hold the deficit at
$30 billion dollars year after year.

>You can sit there, dirt poor, not spend, and keep the debt the
>same (i.e. zero deficit, but the debt's still there!) for an
>infinite amount of time. That seems to be the Tories' solution.
>Except, they haven't even reached that point yet, since there's
>still that annual deficit, and it's even growing year after year.
>

The government is spending a hell of a lot...all our governments
are spending a lot...our combined government deficits, provincial
and federal are $50 billion dollars...that is one hell of a lot
of stimulus...the NDP Ontario government is going to double the 
the total Ontario debt in one term, essentially quadrupling the
typical size of the deficit the previous Liberal government was
running...the Ontario economy isn't booming.

>Or you can target sectors for growth and put some effort into it,
>while at the same time cut back on unnecessary waste to reduce
>the deficit, and put in a more reasonable (i.e. steeper) progressive
>taxation rate.

Increasing taxes in a recession isn't going to bring about a recovery.

Clinton is proposing a capital gains tax cut (for long held investments)
and a whole range of tax incentives for business.


Gerald
Newsgroups: can.politics,can.general,soc.culture.canada
From: 2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA (Andy)
Newsgroups: can.politics,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.australian
Subject: Re: Do we really need the monarchy?
Date: 11 Dec 92 22:00:56 GMT
 <CLAMEN.92Dec10213430@BYRON.SP.CS.CMU.EDU>
Organization: Queen's University at Kingston

In article <CLAMEN.92Dec10213430@BYRON.SP.CS.CMU.EDU>, clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU
(Stewart Clamen) says:
>
>In article <92345.1818102893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> Andy
><2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> writes:
>
>   The latest twist in the royal soap operaprompts the question, do we really
>   need the monarchy, aren't they just an anachronism in this day and age?
>
>   And for the colonials, this whole discussion about the succession
>   and the C of England prompts the question, what is the relevance of
>   a basically British institution to the rest of the commonwealth. If
>   QE2 is supposed to be Queen of Canada, Australia, New Zealand et al
>   as much as she is Queen of the UK, why are our governments not
>   consulted about these matters.
>
>Actually, I seem to remember reading somewhere that Canada (ie. the
>PM) WAS consulted during the Edward VIII crisis.

That is true, the abdication act had to be passed through the Canadian,
Australian, New Zealand, South African and Irish Parliaments as well. While
legally we do not have to be consulted unless their is some sort of change
to the sucession, in principle we should also be consulted on WHETHER THERE
SHOULD be a change, there is nothing in the press to suggest Major consulted
other Commonwealth PMs before announcing that the sucession is unaltered.


>
>--
>Stewart M. Clamen                       Internet:    clamen@cs.cmu.edu
>School of Computer Science              UUCP:        uunet!"clamen@cs.cmu.edu"
>Carnegie Mellon University              Phone:       +1 412 268 2145
>5000 Forbes Avenue                      Fax:         +1 412 681 5739
>Pittsburgh, PA 15213-3891, USA
Newsgroups: can.politics