HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Subject: Re: The need for an assembler (was: Favorite CPU)
Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 23:05:59 GMT

In article <NEERI.92Aug20112220@iis.ethz.ch> neeri@iis.ethz.ch (Matthias Neeracher) writes:
>>You did, above.
>
>No I didn't. You point to the bad C programs that to some degree exist just
>because C is a popular language and from that, you want to derive a failing
>grade for C as used by experts. This does not really make sense. IMHO, all that
>can be concluded from the bad programs is that:
>
>- C is popular with inexperienced programmers
>- C is not particularly helpful to inexperienced programmers
>
>But this says nothing about C as used by reasonably experienced programmers
>(Personally, I find pre-ANSI C somewhat a pain to work with, and am quite
>comfortable with ANSI C).

I mostly agree, but the use of the word "experts" was originally facetiously
a reference to its original misuse. 

My only argument to this aspect of things is just what constitutes a
"reasonably experienced programmer" to use your words.  Considering the
quality of certain "commercial" releases and related programs, the cutoff
point for adequate experience, (if that's your point; it isn't mine!) is
different for what you would allow versus what's actually released upon
users.

cjl
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.unix.misc
From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Subject: Re: The need for an assembler (was: Favorite CPU)
Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 01:20:26 GMT

In article <1992Aug21.005159.23792@news.eng.convex.com> tchrist@convex.COM (Tom Christiansen) writes:
>From the keyboard of lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner):
>:In article <BtAL3J.DuH@mtholyoke.edu> jbotz@mtholyoke.edu (Jurgen Botz) writes:
>:
>:>others.  Certainly it's easier to write solid code in a HLL than in assembly.
>:
>:No, it isn't certain, and more importantly it's easier to write code that's
>:*insidiously* not solid in some hll.  I find for many environments that it's
>:miuch easier to write *any* code in assembler, and the solidity is a nice
>:byproduct.  For some people who are their own worst enemy, a hll level language
>:is the place to go (or better just don't attempt to be a programmer if it's
>:really a problem; in fact I'll go one better: if you can't get a rudimentary
>:or better handle on assembler, don't even think of writing in hll; you 
>:obviously don't know enough about computers to continue without furthering
>:your education.).  
>
>What ridiculous, self-serving, patently false elitism!  There are
>innumerable programmers who write only in HLLs, get their jobs done, and
>go home.  If we were all forced to use assembler, much less programming
>would get done.  That's what compilers are for.
>
>Take this to alt.flame or some such.

I suggest you take it to your local school English department:

Certain= there are no exceptions; *every* case is true, and the opposite is
always false.

I, and others I know are exceptions, therefore "certain" doesn't apply.  I
never suggested that what you wrote couldn't be done, just that they better
be versed in assembler to understand better what they are doing.

As to self-serving, I suggest that your post that would lump me into a
category *you* made up is self-serving.

cjl
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.unix.misc
From: peter@ferranti.com (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: The need for an assembler (was: Favorite CPU)
Organization: Xenix Support, FICC
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 17:42:40 GMT

In article <1992Aug16.074623.2955@news.columbia.edu> lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) writes:
> In article <id.NZDS.UCE@ferranti.com> peter@ferranti.com (peter da silva) writes:
> >In article <1992Aug14.081326.24359@news.columbia.edu> lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) writes:
> >> This gets to the heart of the matter: hll programmers depend on the compiler
> >> to do "magic" of various hues and colors for them; for most of them, they
> >> haven't a clue as to what's going on,

> >I take it you include Richard Stallman, Dennis Ritchie, Niclaus Wirth, and
> >myself in this. [...]

> Putting yourself into that category could be interpreted as misplaced macho.
> [...] I said *most* users of hll.  If you put yourself in the category of
> the people whose names you used, then you are proving my point:  There are
> possibly as few as 5 people who actually have a clue as to what a compiler
> is doing for them in any detailed way; for the rest, who are apparently a
> huge ignorant horde that *you* want to distance yourself from, they likely
> know little to none about what's going on under the hood.

You're putting words into my mouth. I included myself in the list because I'm
*not* a programming demigod. There aren't "possibly as few as 5 people" who
have a clue... I could come up with that many personal friends who have done
enough real work with but a moment's reflection. So could you, if you quit
hanging around in academia and checked out a few real-time shops. I know a guy
who sat down and wrote an O/S for the Z80 in 100% PL/M, and it ran first time.
I can't imagine doing that in assembly.

I'm not distancing myself from the horde, I'm part of it. The horde isn't as
ignorant as you'd like to make out.
-- 
Peter da Silva                                               `-_-'
$ EDIT/TECO LOVE                                              'U` 
%TECO-W-OLDJOKE Not war?                        Have you hugged your wolf today?
Ferranti Intl. Ctls. Corp.      Sugar Land, TX  77487-5012       +1 713 274 5180
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: abs0@coos.dartmouth.edu (Kelvin Leung)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Computer History/Biography/NonFiction Book List (Version 1.0)
Keywords: books computers non-fiction
Date: 21 Aug 92 21:27:14 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH

[a list of computer history books deleted]

Don't forget:

1) The Devouring Fungus   by Karla Jennings

and 

2) Accidental Millionaire (forgot who wrote it)--about the rise and
   fall (?) of Steve Jobs.

I know... I know... Steve Jobs isn't really a "computer person," 
but he did cofounded Apple and NeXT.  Furthermore, that book talks  
quite a bit about Apple Computer, inc...

Yours Sincerely,
Kelvin


                                            ____________________________
 __________________________________________/ Undergraduate, Class of 94 \___ 
 ____________________________________________________________/_____\________
| Kelvin     /   Internet: Kelvin.Leung@Dartmouth.edu       ({o   o})       |
|   Leung   /       or     abs0@Coos.Dartmouth.edu        <  #  ^  #  >     | 
|__________/_______________________________________________(vvvvvvvvv)------|
| "Unless someone like you cares a whole |  Aaahhhh!!! It's a beast...      |
|  awful lot, nothing is going to get    |    ... no, no... it's a doll...  |
|  better.  It's not."                   |       ... what is it?            |
|               -- Dr. Seuss (The Lorax) | either way... it's here!!!       |
 ________________________________________^__________________________________ 
Xref: sparky alt.folklore.computers:12482 comp.unix.misc:3218
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.unix.misc
Subject: Re: The need for an assembler (was: Favorite CPU)
From: ecmtwhk@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz (Thomas Koenig)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 07:48:07 GMT
Organization: University of Auckland, New Zealand.

bjj@ecl.psu.edu (Bryan J. Jensen) writes:

[among other things, a FORTRAN example where loop indices were used
 as subroutine arguments, which led to bad optimizations]

>FORTRAN passes variables by reference (pass pointer to the value),
>thus, a function is always free to change its arguments.

>When the function arguments are the do-loop indices, the compiler
>has no way of knowing that the function won't change the indices.
>Thus, all the optimization it had done assuming sequential access
>can no longer be done.
[...]
>The solution, of course, is to never pass do-loop indices to functions
>or subroutines.

If the compiler does indeed generate code like that for the code you
showed, it does not optimize as well as it could.

The FORTRAN 77 standard states that it is illegal to modify the value
of a DO loop iteration variable inside the loop. Any program which does
so violates the standard, and the results are undefined or, in other words,
random.

Without that rule, strength reduction would be a much harder job, let
alone vectorization. C's greater flexibility in this regard puts much
more of a burden on the compiler writers.
-- 
Thomas Koenig, ecmtwhk@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz, ib09@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de
The joy of engineering is to find a straight line on a double logarithmic
diagram.
From: aki@cruzio.santa-cruz.ca.us
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Deutsches Museum (was: Zuse Computers
Date: 17 Aug 92 06:05:41 GMT
Reply-To: aki@cruzio.santa-cruz.ca.us

In article <1992Aug16.200705.58190@cc.usu.edu>, ivie@cc.usu.edu (CP/M lives!) writes:
> It was kind of funny seeing people try to take flash pictures of the
> planetarium screen...


Will those tourists _EVER_ learn?

Aki. (seasoned DM visitor)
-- 
/  Phone: 408-662 9664   Fax: 662 9676  |  "Aki" pronounced: Ah-Key. I know  \ 
\  125 Searidge Ct #D, Aptos, CA 95003  |  what I'm doing most of the time.  /
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: phz@cadence.com (Pete Zakel)
Subject: Re: Favorite CPU
Organization: Cadence Design Systems
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 19:57:09 GMT

In article <9208121907.AA27870@thep.lu.se> magnus@THEP.LU.SE (Magnus Olsson) writes:

! Of course, if you're writing software which will decide matters of
! life or death, bounds checking isn't enough - what if you've written
! an air traffic control system, or, even worse, the fly-by-wire
! software in an airplane, and in the middle of a critical manuever you
! get the message
! 
! Array index out of bounds - core dumped?

Didn't one of the Air Force's recent jets have a flight control system that
caused the plane to flip over when it crossed the equator into the southern
hemisphere?

-Pete Zakel
 (phz@cadence.com or ..!uunet!cadence!phz)

"Yacc" owes much to a most stimulating collection of users, who have
goaded me beyond my inclination, and frequently beyond my ability in
their endless search for "one more feature".  Their irritating
unwillingness to learn how to do things my way has usually led to my
doing things their way; most of the time, they have been right.

		-- S. C. Johnson, "Yacc guide acknowledgements"
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: hm342st@unidui.uni-duisburg.de (Michael Staats)
Subject: Re: You know you've been working with computers too long...
Date: 20 Aug 92 09:16:42 GMT
Organization: Rechenzentrum Uni-Duisburg


when: you want to talk about initiation (you know, the thing Hemmingway
      wrote lots of stories about) an say initialization (happend to
      a friend yesterday)

when: sombody in a german conversation talks about biosphere (pronounced
      english) and you understand "BIOS vier" (german for BIOS four)
      and wonder what kind of BIOS he's talking about and that his
      sentence doesn't seem to make much sense (this happened to me
      yesterday)

So long,
Michael

-- 
Michael Staats
Theoretische Tieftemperaturphysik
Universitaet Gesamthochschule Duisburg
michael@hal9000.uni-duisburg.de
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: ao@elixir.e.kth.se (Anders Ohlsson)
Subject: Calendar program (or Phase of The Moon)
Organization: Royal Institute of Technology, NADA
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 11:19:00 GMT

	Hi all!

	Do you have an IBM-PC compatible and an HP LaserJet III?

	If so, get PD1:<MSDOS.LASER>YACPU11.ZIP at simtel20.army.mil
	or any of its mirrors.

	YACPU prints six-monthly, monthly and weekly calendars.
	You can specify holidays to be highlighted and quotes to
	be printed, and many other things.

	And, to help you to know when to shut off your computer, or
	not to run that particular hack, YACPU prints the Phases of
	The Moon with times for them.

	Any feedback is appretiated. E-mail me at the below addresses.

	BTW: YACPU is one of those YUBAs...
	     YACPU = Yet Another Calendar Printing Utility
	     YUBA  = Yet Another Bloody Acronym


					Yours,

						Anders Ohlsson

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Anders Ohlsson       | "Life? The universe?? Everything???", Murphy asked |
| ao@elixir.lne.kth.se | "Subject to change without notice", GOD replied    |
| ao@infovox.se        |                                                    |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: dick.zeitlin%acc1bbs@ssr.com (Dick Zeitlin) 
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Computer Relics (Was:
Date: 13 Aug 92 22:18:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Advanced Computer Concepts BBS, New Rochelle, NY 914-654-1981
Reply-To: dick.zeitlin%acc1bbs@ssr.com (Dick Zeitlin) 

To: avg@rodan.UU.NET (Vadim Antonov)

VA> .avg> After all, our brains *are* analog.

VA> .dz>Nope...  There's lots of evidence that our brains are digital.  Not
  > .dz>binary...  A bit more involved, but not analog, in the sense that we're
  > .dz>using it.  "Adaptable threshold digital" might be a closer descriptor.

VA> .Nope. Please note that impulse-width modulation is a kind of ANALOG
  > .modulation.

But the individual pulses are quite consistant in waveshape/width.  The
repetition rate does change significantly, though I haven't heard about
anyone being able to correlate the rate with the input stimulus.

Let's compromise and say that the brain is a good example of hybrid
computation that's not well characterised at this time. <~>

        D/

 * OLX 2.2 * Dick.Zeitlin%acc1bbs@ssr.com
                                                                                           
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: kjell@elixir.e.kth.se (Kjell Rilbe)
Subject: Re: You know you've been hacking too long...
Organization: Dept. of EE, Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 06:50:32 GMT

In article <1992Aug17.160522.23226@donau.et.tudelft.nl> cornet@duteca3.et.tudelft.nl (Jan-Pieter Cornet) writes:
>h.se>
>Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 16:05:22 GMT
>Lines: 26
>
>kjell@elixir.e.kth.se (Kjell Rilbe) writes:
>>LED to indicate power is on. When he moved the walkman, this little LED
>>seemed to kind of float around, like it was not attached at all to the
>>walkman!!!!!
>>
>>Please, TRY THIS YOURSELVES! I can understand that it seems unbeleivable,
>>but if you just switch off all lights, and try this, you will see what I'm
>>talking about! (I hope. If not, I'm going crazy. Along with three of my
>>friends.....)
>
>I tried it! It works! When you wave the walkman back and forth, you can
>clearly (as far as that goes in the dim light) see the LED move _ahead_
>of the walkman, upto several inches!! I must say that all the guests
>were a bit surprized when I suddenly came down with a walkman and then
>started to turn off all the lights, but then we all (6 of us) were amazed
>by this phenomenon.

Well, thank you Jan-Pieter! 

Finally someone beleives me!

Now, is there someone out there who can explain it???????

/Kjell Rilbe
From: zzassgl@uts.mcc.ac.uk (Geoff Lane)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Need a copy of Creation of World in IBM JCL
Date: 18 Aug 92 14:10:52 GMT
Organization: Manchester Computing Centre, Manchester, England, M13 9PL.

In article <5520@mccuts.uts.mcc.ac.uk> zzassgl@uts.mcc.ac.uk (Geoff Lane) writes:
>
>I used to have a listing of an IBM JCL job which described the creation of
>the world in terms of IBM JCL commands.  Does anyone have a copy they can
>send me?
>
>Thanks,
>-- 
>Geoff. Lane.                                  Janet: zzassgl@uk.ac.mcc.uts
>UTS Sys Admin, Manchester Computing Centre, Oxford Rd, Manchester, M13 9PL


Well, I've been given an old printed copy of the card deck and so I now can
reply to my own post.  A number of others have asked for a copy so I've
included it below.  There is no indication of the author or when/where it
was originally published (if it ever was.)


//CREATION JOB (0000,EARTH),'GOD',PRTY=13,RESTART=EDEN,TIME=1440
//*
/*SETUP	      DISK=PRIMAL
//*
//JOBLIB DD   DSN=UNIVERSE,DISP=(OLD,KEEP)
//*
//* FOR EXTENDED DOCUMENTATION ON THIS JOB REFER TO MEMBER
//* BOOK.ONE, CHAPTER,ONE OF SYSDOC FILE WORD.OF.GOD
//* TAMPER WITH THIS JOB AT YOUR OWN EXTREME RISK!
//*
//DAYONE EXEC  PGM=IEBGENER
//VOID   DD    DSN=CHAOS
//DAY    DD    DSN=LIGHT
//NIGHT  DD    DSN=DARKNESS
//SYSIN  DD    *
   LET THERE BE LIGHT, AND LET DARKNESS BE A SEPARATE DATASET!
/*
//DAYTWO EXEC  PGM=SORT
//FIRM   DD    DSN=HEAVEN,DCB=DSORG=PO
//WATERS1 DD   DSN=HEAVEN(ABOVE)
//WATERS2 DD   DSN=HEAVEN(BELOW)
//SYSIN   DD   *
   LET THE FIRMANENT, CALLED HEAVEN, PARTITION THE WATERS!
/*
//DAYTHREE EXEC PGM=MERGE
//MERGEIN  DD   DSN=BELOW
//MERGEOUT DD   DSN=DRY.LAND
//EARTH    DD   DSN=DRY.LANE
//BELOW    DD   DSN=SEAS
//FLORA    DD   DSN=GRASSES.HERBES
//         DD   DSN=FRUIT.TREES
//SYSIN    DD   *
   SET THE EARTH CONCATENATE GRASS AND TREES
/*
//DAYFOUR  EXEC PGM=IEBUPDTE
//SUN      DD   DSN=LIGHT
//MOON     DD   DSN=LIGHT
//STARS    DD   DSN=LIGHT
//SYSIN    DD   *
  LET THERE BE PANEL LIGHTS TO INDICATE THE STATUS OF
  THE UNIVERSE!
/*
//DAYFIVE  DD   PGM=IEHMOVE
//WHALES   DD   DSN=MOVING.CREATURE
//FOWL     DD   DSN=MOVING.CREATURE
//SYSIN    DD   *
  BE FRUITFUL AND MULTIPLY UNTIL OVERFLOW
/* 
//DAYSIX   EXEC PGM=IEBCOPY
//MAN      DD   DSN=GOD.IMAGE
//MALE     DD   DSN=MAN(ADAM)
//FEMALE   DD   DSN=MAN(EVE)
//SYSABEND DD   DSN=ETERNAL.HELL
//SYSIN    DD   *
   ALL THE DATASETS NOW EXIST. LET MAN TEND THE CONSOLE
   AND REPLENISH THE LINE PRINTER AND KEEP HIS MITTS OUT
   OF THE MICROCODE!
/*
//DAYSEVEN EXEC PGM=ENTROPHY,COND=((IT IS GOOD,DAYSIX),ONLY)
//TIME     DD   DSN=ETERNITY
//SYSIND   DD   *
   NOW LET THE SYSTEM RUN, THE PANEL LIGHTS TWINKLE, AND THE DISKS
   FILL WITH DATA!
/*
//

Thats all folks!

-- 
Geoff. Lane.                                  Janet: zzassgl@uk.ac.mcc.uts
UTS Sys Admin, Manchester Computing Centre, Oxford Rd, Manchester, M13 9PL
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: rbe@yrloc.ipsa.reuter.COM (Robert Bernecky)
Subject: Re: The need for an assembler (was: Favorite CPU)
Reply-To: rbe@yrloc.ipsa.reuter.COM (Robert Bernecky)
Organization: Snake Island Research Inc, Toronto
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 04:59:05 GMT

In article <1992Aug16.201123.58191@cc.usu.edu> ivie@cc.usu.edu (CP/M lives!) writes:
>In article <1992Aug15.215427.5726@yrloc.ipsa.reuter.COM>, rbe@yrloc.ipsa.reuter.COM (Robert Bernecky) writes:
>> 
>> a. Non-code can't have any bugs in it.
>
>I'll disagree with this one. When's the last time you had to fix a bug by
>_removing_ code. Obviously, most bugs are in the code that isn't there...

I suspect that Roger has not had much experience in working with 
maintaining Real Code written by humans. 

Here's two examples of where removal of code has fixed bugs:

a. An early implementation of a fast inner product for or.neq 
   in SHARP APL used the and.eq algorithm, sort of...
   [If you think of normal matrix product as +.*, where the * is
   what you do for row vs column and the + is the reduction you
   apply to the results of the row/column operations to the result]
   then APL implements a general matrix product with "dot" (.) which
   lets you specify the operations, which in these cases are 
   things like and.eq and or.neq.

   The author of the code wrote and.eq and got it largely right.
   The next step taken was to write or.neq. Instead of using the
   obvious technique of inverting the result, the author decided to
   invert the arguments, do and.eq and invert the result. In doing so,
   he managed to screw up the case where one operand was longer than
   256 bytes worth of bits in length.

   When I discovered this bug, I managed to fix it AND make the code
   faster by  merely inserting a test at the end of the and.eq code 
   to see if the case was and.eq (after mapping them together up front)
   and then inverting the result if so.
   The resulting code ran about twice as fast,  and was visually checkable
   as being correct much easier than the (clearly wrong) code which
   ran several cases.

b. Bozo Koders working on "Quad Format"  managed to create code which
   ran bags slower than the obvious code. Insection of the code hshowed
   tht gereric table search code was searhing a one-entry table
   (an gettng it wrong). COde has been added to "fix'  bug with the
   one-entry table, so removl of both fixed the bug and made things
   go fast.   




Robert Bernecky      rbe@yrloc.ipsa.reuter.com  bernecky@itrchq.itrc.on.ca 
Snake Island Research Inc  (416) 368-6944   FAX: (416) 360-4694 
18 Fifth Street, Ward's Island
Toronto, Ontario M5J 2B9 
Canada
From: phil@venus.ucdavis.edu (Phillip Wong)
Subject: 2 Questions!
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Organization: University of California, Davis
Date: 13 Aug 92 20:07:07 GMT

13 August 1992

Hi net.landers,
I have 2 questions that perhaps someone can answer:

1] If I buy a used computer, perhaps a VAX 11/750 or some
similiar beast, where would I get the system software from at a
reasonable price? (I am under the impression that a licence for
that class of machine would be unaffordable for a hobbyist)

2] Does anyone have any information on the reliability of
wire-wrap? Is it resistant to damage due to large swings in
temperature? (provided the ICs are not damaged, of course :-))
Any other environmental factors that may cause damage that I need
to be aware of?

As always, thaADVANCEnks!

-phil

| o |                                                                     | o |
|---|---------------------------------------------------------------------|---|
| o | "Which way is CLOCKWISE on a DIGITAL clock?"                        | o |
| o | by Internet: phil@mike.eng.uci.edu  -OR-  phil@venus.ucdavis.edu    | o |
| o | by USnail: 707 Sycamore Lane #107, Davis, CA 95616                  | o |
| o | by AT&T:  hm:916-757-2461                                           | o |
From: kjell@elixir.e.kth.se (Kjell Rilbe)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: You know you've been hacking too long...
Date: 19 Aug 92 11:23:28 GMT
Organization: Dept. of EE, Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden

In article <1992Aug18.224326.1894@research.nj.nec.com> magnasco@research.nj.nec.com (Marcelo Magnasco) writes:
>[Stuff related to my own posting deleted. BTW, thanks for trying to
>explain it!]
>
>On the other hand, what happens when you crunch stuff and look at a led 
>display has to do with the strobe frequency of the leds. One of my favorite
>strobe trick is to hold a straigth finger (in vertical position) to a 
>fully illuminated monitor or tv (yes, that gesture), and move it very fast
>horizontally while keeping it vertical. You can see distinct shadows of the
>finger (because of the strobe) but if you move it really fast the shadows
>are bent, leaning to one side when you move left to right and viceversa,
>and that's because the strobe is not uniform (the light is swept from up
>to down in each strobe).

Yes I tried that one myself lots of times. Another version of the same
thing: Try holding the finger horizontally and waving it up and down.
It will look thicker than normal when moving in one direction and thinner 
when moving the other direction.

/Kjell Rilbe
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers