HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mjs@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Marc Sabatella)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Least valuable players
Date: 16 Apr 92 16:51:38 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA

In article <13APR199213260005@deimos.ucc.umass.edu> s5170748@deimos.ucc.umass.edu (THAN LEE) writes:
>While all of this talk centers around Alfredo Griffin and his recent shortstop
>companions, there have been some truly atrocious players who were NOT light-
>hitting, poor-fielding shortstops.  I give you:
>
>   Lynn Jones, OF DET
>      A backup outfielder his entire 8 year career.  How did he last that
>   long?  One of the worst fielders ever to roam the outfield.  -33 -5 -82
>   Hey, this guy makes Rowland Office look like Clemente!  In all, he had
>   a TPR of -12.5.

I was leafing through Total Baseball the other day, seeing if any of my
personal anti-heroes would have made the LVP list.  I found Butch Hobson to be
even worse than I remember, which is saying something.  While randomly scanning
the listings, I found lots of players with net career value of <-200 runs.
A surprising percentage were outfielders...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marc "Dave" Sabatella		Disclaimer: OPS is not the One True Statistic
marc@hpmonk.fc.hp.com		that makes all others obsolete
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Mmmm... po-ta-to chips" - Homer Simpson's thoughts
                           going into the most "clutch" at bat of his life
From: SASCHO@mvs.sas.com (SASCHO)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: stealing/swinging (was Re: DUMB inexcusable play)
Date: 13 Apr 92 11:40:00 GMT
Organization: SAS Institute Inc.
X-Bytes: 2044

>Hmmm...now here's another bit of "Traditional Baseball Wisdom" (tm) that I'd
>like to see investigated, but I don't know if anyone has the data. Is it
>really an advantage to the base stealer if the batter swings at the pitch?
>Does anyone have SB/CS numbers broken down by swing/no swing to check? My
>personal belief is that the difference, if it exists, will be minimal, but
>that's based on my catching experience, which stopped at Little League.
>Chuck, do you have any light to shed on the matter? What was your
>experience?
 
As a catcher, a batter swinging makes you wait a split second longer,
and that helps the runner a bit. I think it's pretty negligible, though.
I'm not sure how traditional this baseball wisdom is, however, even
though I've heard it used. If a base stealer is on first in a steal
situation, the batter should take a pitch or two to let him steal. You
don't want to swing and risk a pop-up or foul ball. The main time you
want to swing is on a hit and run, when the runner doesn't get as good
of a jump as on a straight steal. Then you better put the ball on the
ground, or at least try. The biggest advantage to a runner is having
a left handed batter, assuming you're stealing second. The catcher
can't see the runner break, and the batter is standing where you need
to throw the ball. Makes you alter your delivery slightly, enough to
make a bad throw. Of course, a catcher loves a left handed batter
when a guy tries to steal third. I'm willing to bet the stats show
more guys throwm out at third with a left handed batter at the plate.
Of course, there are far fewer attempts, too.
 
BTW, I know this is obvious, but the above shows why you don't see
left-handed catchers.
 
 
Chuck Oertli
SAS INSTITUTE INC.
AUSTIN, TX                                    SASCHO@MVS.SAS.COM
>   Mike Jones  |  AIX/ESA Development  |  mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com
>
>99 Reasons Baseball is Better Than Football - Number 2:
>In football, nobody says, "Let's play two!"
>        - Tom Boswell, "The Heart of the Order"
>
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: SASCHO <SASCHO@mvs.sas.com>
Subject: Re: Rickey Henderson v Nolan Ryan -- Stat-head call to arms!
Organization: SAS Institute Inc.
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 10:26:00 GMT
X-Bytes: 498

>pitcher wins 300 games in the ML, he's proably HOF caliber.  But to look at
>Ryan's record and use the 278 losses to justify a claim that he's not
>particularly good is preposterous. (And missing the point, too.  He's going to
>go to Cooperstown not for his W-L, or his ERA, bu because he struck out more
>often than Pee-Wee Herman at the beach.
 
I just remembered Ryan's year with the 'stros when he won the ERA
crown, but his W-L was well below .500. That is certainly not his
fault.
 
 
Chuck
From: kiviat@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Brian Kiviat)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Rickey Henderson v Nolan Ryan -- Stat-head call to arms!
Date: 14 Apr 92 19:58:27 GMT
Reply-To: kiviat@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Brian Kiviat)
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD

In rec.sport.baseball, CAVGEOE@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu writes:

>     ON A RELATED NOTE, it seems I've been taking some serious shit on
=the net for saying what I did -- I've been called fucking nuts, for
=example, and then there are the people who consider "class" a factor in
=determining how good a ballplayer is.  Well, change "class" to "race" and
=you'd capture the opinion of a lot of anti-Rickey, pro-Ryan people...not
=that I'm accusing anyone on the net of being racist, but you bet there
=were a lot of racist Americans who just loved it when the press deified
=Ryan and vilified Rickey.

 Bullshit, It seems you assumed all the people who flamed you were white.
I am not calling you a racist, but before you go attacking others, try
to think.

Brian
Ryan over Ricky anyday anywhere anytime
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: todd@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Todd Pedlar)
Subject: Re: Who fields now?
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, Illinois
Distribution: rec
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 03:35:36 GMT

In article <1992Apr7.231632.2461@cs.rose-hulman.edu> rickert@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (John H. Rickert) writes:
>In article <1992Apr7.220342.10130@m.cs.uiuc.edu> silber@m.cs.uiuc.edu (Ami A.  
>Silberman) writes:
>> I know that in the AL (and most minor leagues, and most college games) if
>> the designated hitter comes in to field a position, the pitcher must hit 
>> for himself.
>> 
>> What happens if:
>> a) The DH comes in to pitch?
>> or
>> b) A position player (lf for example) comes in to pitch?
>
>I'm reasonably sure that in both cases, the DH can't be used for the rest od  
>the game (but I don't have my rule book here).
>
>john rickert

You're right... while I was a pitcher in college, one of our DH's was a pretty
good pitcher and occasionally he would be used in relief.  From the time when
he enters the game as a pitcher, there is no more DH - he hits for himself and
subsequent relievers mush hit for themselves.  When I wasn't pitching I played
a lot of left field and when I came in to relieve in a game, I still hit for
myself and the DH sat.  The only thing I'm not sure of (i don't think it
happened too often) is whether the DH can take my place in the field... I
think that is a possibility, though like john, I don't have my rule book
handy.  I played in the NAIA and I'm pretty sure we played by the AL rulebook.
 

tkp


______________________________________________________________________________
Todd K. Pedlar                   ! 
Graduate Student                 !      "Damn it, Jim, I'm a physicist,
Nuclear Physics                  !
Northwestern University          !              not an engineer!"
                                 !
GO U NU!   Go M's!               !  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: epstein@sunc2.cs.uiuc.edu (Milt Epstein)
Subject: Re: Something not covered by stats (SRA?)
Reply-To: epstein@cs.uiuc.edu
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 01:15:14 GMT

In <31599@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> kprashan@sdcc3.ucsd.edu (hyderabadi) writes:

>So what are the major offensive numbers for any players? 
>BA, OBP, Slugging, RBIs, HRs, SB, Sac, Runs Scored..
>
>What about that guy in the middle of an inning who advances
>the runners to make the RBI possible for the next guy??
>
>Classic example, Saturday night's game LA vs SD. Score tied
>2-2 in the bottom of the 10th. Fernandez at 1B, 0 out, Gwynn
>at plate. On 3-2 pitch, Fernandez is going (after all, Gwynn
>struck out swinging 19 times in ~540 ABs last season). And Gwynn
>singles up the center to send Fernandez to 3rd, & Sheffield's Sac
>Fly is the game-winner. 
>
>Gwynn doesn't get an RBI, no RunScored, but that run was possible
>only bcoz of that hit.
>
>Is scoring-runners-advanced (SRA) a stat in any book??

I assume you have the "scoring" in there because you intend it to be
kept for advancing only runners that eventually score, correct?  I
think that is a bad idea, since it would include factors beyond the
batter's control (e.g. it would not have been Gwynn's fault had the
later batters not been able to do something to allow Fernandez to
score).

So, then we have runners-advanced.  A few comments on this --

1. It still has a few problems, e.g. including other things beyond the
batter's control.  It is dependent on the runners on base -- what if
they are slow or not smart baserunners?  You would reward a batter for
having good baserunners batting in front of him.

2. This is somewhat kept by slugging average -- the idea being that
the more bases you get on your hits, the more you will be advancing
runners.

3. Some other sabermetrics have been created to account for problems
with slugging average (and these may cover problems that some may say
slugging average has with keeping track of advancing runners).
Slugging is basically a weighted batting average -- weighted by the
type of hit.  The problem is that the weights it uses are not the best
(e.g. 1 for single or BB or HBP, 2 for double, 3 for triple, 4 for
HR).  In actuality, a single is better than a BB (partly for it
potentially being better at advancing runners), and the other hits are
not really 2, 3, or 4 times better than singles.  So, people have come
up with other weighted batting averages that are supposed to
correspond more closely with the actual value of each type of hit.

I don't know if anyone has specifically used runners-advanced as a
stat (chances are good someone has), but there definitely are stats
that indirectly measure it.

-- 
Milt Epstein
Department of Computer Science
University of Illinois
epstein@cs.uiuc.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: mjw@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Michael Wolverton)
Subject: Re: Rickey Henderson v Nolan Ryan -- Stat-head call to arms!
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1992 19:36:51 GMT

In article <1992Apr16.231544.29518@Princeton.EDU> roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:
>(Note: the 1987 ERA title and 8-16 W/L is *not* evidence for this 
>[Ryan getting poor offensive support, even relative to the team].  That
>happened because the Astro brass had dictated a pitch count for old,
>frail Nolan -- and then didn't have a bullpen to back him up.)

The bullpen caused the ERA winner to get 16 *losses*?!! Yeah, right.

A friend of mine cut out a stats box from the Houston Post that year
and sent it to me.  It's subtitled "Sixteen quality starts Nolan Ryan
didn't win".  I realize that just showing run support for a select few
games doesn't tell the whole story, but it does give some idea of the
*number* of games in which Ryan pitched well but left with a L or a ND
because of poor run support.  Here's the number of runs the Astros
scored (remember, this was the rabbit-ball year):

1, 0, 2, 5, 1, 1, 0, 1, 0, 3, 5, 0, 1, 5, 1, 3

The bullpen blew four of those games (the three "5"s, of course, and
one of the "3"s).

That was a putrid offensive team (worst in the league).  But there's
no way that the ERA leader can rack up that many losses without being
at least a little unlucky relative to the team.

-Michael
-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Wolverton                       "Is that clear?"
mjw@cs.stanford.edu                     "No, but it's consistent!"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: kettler@mitme5.mit.edu (KETTLER, THOMAS R.)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Red Sox vs. Jays
Date: 7 Apr 92 17:20:00 GMT
Organization: MIT Lab for Nuclear Science
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1

In article <1992Apr6.215141.28343@e2big.mko.dec.com>, gobrien@trooa.enet.dec.com (Glenn OBrien)   writes...
> 
>In article <1992Apr4.005436.14902@berlioz.nsc.com>, roger@thoreau.nsc.com ( Roger Wakefield) writes...
>>Well, it seems that the conventional wisdom has the Blue Jays running
>>away with the A.L. East and marching to the World Series.  Peter Gammons
>>has picked the Sox THIRD and says they could finish closer to fifth than first!
>> 
>>I must strongly disagree.
>> 
> 
>So do I.  Boston and Toronto are miles ahead of the pack in terms of potential 
>finish, and only large numbers of injuries and/or off-years will prevent this 
>typical 1-2 finish.
> 
>My problem begins with the remainder of Roger's analysis.
> 
>Toronto's starting pitching is vastly superior to Boston's, with all due 
>respect to the best pitcher in the AL.  When Dave Stieb comes back (in the not 
>too distant future, I should add), one of Wells or Stottlemyre will be sent to 
>the bullpen.  Imagine if Boston had to send a 15-game winner to the pen because 
>there was no room in the rotation.  Key won 16, Morris 18, and Guzman won 10 in 
>23 starts.  Clemens is always good for 18-20, Viola should rebound to win 
>15-18, but beyond that, it's less-than-spectacular rookies or walking wounded 
>to fill three slots.  Hesketh had a good year in 1991, his first since his 
>rookie year with the Expos in 1986.  That's hardly a record to compare to 
>either Jack Morris or Jimmy Key.  Also, Lou Gorman was pursuing Jack Morris as 
>muc as the Jays, and that Pat Gillick had Viola as his backup if Morris went to 
>the Red Sox.  It would appear that Red Sox management favours Morris over Viola 
>as well.
> 

(finish of post removed)

You're wrong about Hesketh's rookie year. It was 1985, not 1986. That year he 
had won 10 or 11 games into July if I remember correctly and was a shoe-in for
Rookie of the Year until he collided at home plate with Mike Scoscia in a game
and knocked out his shoulder. If someone else's memory is better than mine, 
could he or she post the info about Hesketh's rookie season or send it to 
kettler@pierre.mit.edu.

					Sincerely yours,

					Thomas R. Kettler
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: kbos@carina.unm.edu (Kurt M. Bose)
Subject: Re: Today in Baseball History
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 92 08:16:02 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico

EDIT.

Maybe just the *really* good stuff.  I think one page or one &a half is enuff.


-- 
| KWACK!                  "Damn tree-hugging-chin-spinach-lettuce-eaters
| Kbos@carina.unm.edu       already have their blue dots; what the hell
| Kurt M. Bose UNM           do they want NOW!?!?!?!?"
| Albuquerque, New Mexico                        -The Grand Platypus
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: s5170748@deimos.ucc.umass.edu (THAN LEE)
Subject: Jody Reed bashing
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 21:57:00 GMT

I don't have any stats to back up this idea of mine, so if anybody does, 
please let me know of them...
As far as I can tell from watching many Red Sox games each year, Fenway does
NOT boost Reed's stats!  Sure he gets a mess of doubles, but only a very
few come from the Green Monster...the prototypical Reed double is a line drive
hugging the third baseline...that's a double anywhere folks...also, he hit
304 on the road last year, best on the Sox.  It just strikes me that Reed
is one hitter who does not have his stats inflated by Fenway.  Please correct
me with the appropriate PROOF if I am wrong.

Than Lee
From: rja@redwood26.cray.com (Russ Anderson)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Twins choke
Date: 14 Apr 92 20:28:28 GMT
Organization: The 1991 World Champion Minnesota Twins!
Originator: rja@redwood26


In article <kum66pINNoor@aludra.usc.edu>, henze@aludra.usc.edu (William Henze) writes:
> In article <1992Apr14.084732.3961@hemlock.cray.com> rja@redwood26.cray.com (Russ Anderson) writes:
> >In article <12100@ns-mx.uiowa.edu>, saevans@l_ecn13.icaen.uiowa.edu (Scott A Evans,,,) writes:
> >> From article <ku9jfjINNef5@girtab.usc.edu>, by henze@girtab.usc.edu (William Henze):
> >> > Bottom of the 9th Grand Slam to lose the game.  Brings back all
> >> > of those *fond* memories of my hero Ron Davis.  Guess the Twins
> >> > won't win all their games this year...
> >> >
> >> You mean "Whiplash" Davis?  Never have seen a pitcher since then to whip his
> >> head around so quickly when a ball is hit!
> >
> >David West, Game 5, on Lonnie Smith's HR.  I give it a sligh edge over
> >Ron Davis, 1984, on Jamie Quirk's HR for Cleveland (The Twins blew a 
> >10-0 lead to lose 10-11, knocking the Twins out of the pennant race).  
> >
> Ugh!  The end of that season is probably my worst baseball memory.  The
> game you mentioned was pretty horrific.  I listened to it on a radio
> station long-distance from Alabama.  I kind of remember it being a Kansas
> City game though.  Are you sure it was the Indians?  I thought Quirk played
> for the Royals.

Quirk has played for the Royals, but he was with the Indians for that game.
(Check out Quirk's statistics for 1984.  He was with Cleveland for 1 game,
1 AB, 1 hit, 1 HR...)

>                  I also remember the Twins blowing some other games late that
> season.  I believe they had a 5-0 lead with two outs in the 9th and ended
> up losing after 3 two-run homers.
> 
> Didn't Davis weep openly when talking to the media sometime that season.  He
>  certainly had reason to cry.

I remember when the Twins finally traded Davis to the Cubs, he came in his
first game and gave up a HR.  The uniform had changed but the neckwhip as
he tried to follow the flight of the ball was the same...
-- 
Russ Anderson    |  Disclaimer: Any statements are my own and do not reflect
------------------              upon my employer or anyone else.  (c) 1992
EX-Twins' Jack Morris, 10 innings pitched, 0 runs (World Series MVP!)
From: dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu (David M Tate)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Least Valuable Players (career)
Date: 10 Apr 92 15:27:45 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

In article <167C4F8BB.CAVGEOE@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu> CAVGEOE@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu writes:
>In article <204627@unix.cis.pitt.edu>
>dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu (David M Tate) writes:
> 
>>In _Total_Baseball_, Thorn and Palmer attempt to measure hitting, fielding,
>>and baserunning in terms of runs above/below average for the team.  

[...]

>     I thought T&P measured runs above/below the league average, not the
>team average, but in any case...

They do.  I intended my comment to be read as (runs for the team) above or
below (runs for the team by a league average player).

>     No flame intended, but I think it's nasty and misleading to determine
>the LVP like this.  As Bill James has pointed out, if a player weren't the
>best a team had available, the team wouldn't play him for very long.  

Nonsense.  Jerry Browne sits at home watching Oprah while Billy Ripken lives
on?  There must be 7 or 8 AAA shortstops better than Manny Lee.  And you can't
possibly claim that Alfredo was the best shortstop available to the Dodgers
(either from the minors, free agency, or trade) for ten years...

>The
>guys on your list (deleted here) were certainly the best available to their
>teams for a significant period of time -- I know Atlanta didn't have a SS
>better than Ramirez in the early 80s.  

But they could have.  Without too much difficulty.  Hell, they could have
traded for Oquendo if nothing else, and gotten him cheap cheap cheap from
the Mets.

>So why blast them as "career LVPs"
>because they were consistently below *league* average -- if they were
>better than replacement value they had to be valuable to their teams.

I don't believe that anyone can be above replacement level and that far 
below league average at the same time.

Incidentally, these aren't indictments of the players themselves.  Alfredo
Griffin is who he is, and is probably a great guy.  These are indictments of
the management of the teams who didn't *know* that their players were below
league replacement value for year after year.

>Maybe a guy like Coleman would qualify because his stats fool his teams
>as to his value, but still he's probably better than replacement value,
>especially if he batted lower in the order.

Coleman will qualify someday; he hasn't been around long enough yet.

>     On a related note, anyone have a good idea on how to determine
>replacement value?  Should it be general or team-specific?  Should it
>depend on position (I would think so)?  As always, thoughts appreciated.

Good questions.

-- 
          David M. Tate            |"The man who hath no music in himself
     dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu       | Nor is not moved by concord of sweet sound
  A poem should be dumb, / As old  | Is fit for treason, stratagems, and spoils
 medallions to the thumb.-MacLeish | 	Shakespeare, "Merchant of Venice", A.V
From: griffin@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU (Sean McGerty)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Australian
Summary: Australian Baseball and the pursuit of BoSox fans...
Keywords: Aussie
Date: 12 Apr 92 14:02:50 GMT
Organization: Sydney University Computing Service, Sydney, NSW, Australia

This may seem strange...
 
I am an Australian baseball player. Played what passes for Majors here for 2 
years and will be playing in the Australian University Championships in Perth 
this September.
 
We take our baseball as seriously as you could here, getting standings in the 
back of the paper on a tuesday morning and nothing else...
 
What I'd like to run across is a BoSox fan to chat with. I've been a BoSox 
fan all this time but I'm just very remote.
 
And if any of you people would wanna know anything from the land which 
produced the world record Baseball crowd... or had a higher placed youth 
baseball side than the Americans (last year I think)... drop me a line.
 
Thanks for the time...
 
DrBob.
8-)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: todd@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Todd Pedlar)
Subject: Re: Re: For Jays fans only!
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, Illinois
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 04:57:51 GMT

In article <34860004@teecs.UUCP> ko@teecs.UUCP (Sam Ko) writes:
>A 'WIN' is a win..................
>How about '6' wins in a roll !!!!!!!!!!!!!
>

How about '6' wins on dry toast?

>Go 'JAYS' Go.....
>All the way to the 'WORLD SERIES' **************


Is this stuff ever going to die out?? :)


______________________________________________________________________________
Todd K. Pedlar                   ! 
Graduate Student                 !      "Damn it, Jim, I'm a physicist,
Nuclear Physics                  !
Northwestern University          !              not an engineer!"
                                 !
GO U NU!                         !  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------