HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: fjvwing@cs.vu.nl (FJ!!)
Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.activism,talk.politics.misc,alt.individualism
Subject: Re: On Banning Private Discrimination
Date: 23 Jul 92 16:06:53 GMT

In article 22779@ncar.ucar.edu, gary@colossus.cgd.ucar.edu (Gary Strand) writes:
:fj> with total disregard of things like peer-pressure, basic mine-is-mine
:fj> like-me-not-like-me instincts. People aren't rational.
:
:  I disagree strongly. Are you rational? Note that I *didn't* ask if you were
:  "perfectly" rational. Are you rational enough to avoid sticking a lit match
:  into your eye? Are you rational enough to avoid running onto a freeway? Are
:  you rational enough to avoid eating rotten meat? Add in a few more ques-
:  tions, and yes, you are a sufficiently rational person. Now, why do you be-
:  lieve so few others are?

Groups aren't.

Individuals can be. 'Why would I not sell to that black person? Why
should I hate that lesbian?' Those doubts can creep into a mind. But
when faced with a peer-group to tell tham that it's ok to be
bigoted...I've seen minds close in front of me too many times.

							FJ!!
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: coren@osf.org (Robert Coren)
Subject: Portland reflections (short form)
Organization: Open Software Foundation
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 23:05:20 GMT

I've written a long account with a fair amount of narration, but I
realize that not everyone will have the time/patience to read it, and
that it doesn't really capture the essence, being mostly narration.

So here's a briefer set of relections.

It was wonderful. It was fantastic.

The emotional energy generated by 30-60 motssers is incredible. I
can't think of any other kind of event I've ever been involved with
that has such a sense of intimacy with so many people. This includes,
but is not limited to, the fluidity of sexual relationships that seems
to be a hallmark of the cons (it certainly was at this one), and which
is, I think, unique to the gay world in Western society. But even
apart from that, it just felt like there was a lot of love and
affection in the air.

Also, nobody knows how to have *fun* like a bunch of queers. I think
the Sunday night impromptu gathering at the fountain is as much proof
of this as anyone needs.

High points (events): Bagby; Washington Park; mangoes at Rooster Rock;
the waterfront on Sunday night.

Regrets: that I had such glancing contact with so many people --
particularly, that I hardly had a chance to exchange five words with
Mara; that Doretta couldn't make it; that the chamber music evening
never happened, and was only tantalizingly represented by Harry
testing a borrowed cello with Bach in the room above mine, and Marc's
impromptu waterfront virtuosity.

Special people -- well, I hesitate to start, since this really
includes everybody, and I'll forget some that I shouldn't. The leonine
Sim; the "eminently huggable" Cliff (I forget who coined that phrase);
the remarkable John D.; the indefatigable BBC; and the very *very*
special -- well, he knows who he is.

Thanks to all the locals who made it possible (Alan & Mark,
organizers; Nelson, who keeps insisting that he didn't do anything;
Chris M., compiler of packets; others too numerous to mention); and
thanks to all who were there, for making it great.

Robert

Oh, and P.S. to BBC: If, as you keep claiming, Waldeaux can't change
a lightbulb because he doesn't have opposable thumbs, how does he
manage to dial the phone? The folks at our house knew an awful lot
about what we'd been up to before we even walked in the door.
Xref: sparky soc.motss:32437 soc.bi:9491
From: stine@Stars.Reston.Unisys.COM (John P. Stine x7381)
Newsgroups: soc.motss,soc.bi
Subject: Queer Dominion Day!
Keywords: Fun
Date: 24 Jul 92 13:36:00 GMT
Reply-To: stine@stars.reston.unisys.com (John P. Stine)
Followup-To: soc.motss
Distribution: na
Organization: Paramax Systems Corporation, Reston, VA

Queer Nation/National Capital announces a "National Queer In"
at King's Dominion on Saturday, August 1.  The Queer Buses will
arrive at around 11:30 a.m., and we'll be staying all day.

King's Dominion is an amusement park located just north of
Richmond, VA, on I95.  Lots of roller coasters, water rides,
and other activities which can only be enriched by queerness.
The more Visibly Queer (tm) you are, the more fabulous you are.
This promises to be a wonderful time for everyone - the focus
here is to have fun and be queer.  This is not meant as a
demonstration of any sort -- just an excuse to have fun.

In DC, tickets are available at the Maraposa Gallery on 18th
street and at Lambda Rising on Connecticut above Dupont.  Tickets
through QN are $35.  The ticket is valid for transportation between
DC and the park as well as admission to the park.

For ticket information, e-mail me or phone Lawrence on (202) 234-4082.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
             John P. Stine  (stine@stars.reston.unisys.com)

   The opinions expressed here certainly don't represent those of my
   employer...but I'm working on it.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: rjchou@oakhill.sps.mot.com (Ri Jen Chou)
Subject: Re: Well, God Damn It! SPILL THE BEANS!
Organization: Motorola Inc., Austin, Texas
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 22:42:31 GMT

his@the-temple.East.Sun.COM (Howard Solomon - SunExpress Support Engineer) writes:

>OK, jason.  I'll peep.  The Portland con was absolutely wonderful!  I can't repeat
>that often enough. 

I agree!!!!!

>As another aside, congratulations to Ron Rizzo for being the only member to attend
>all 5 cons (San Francisco, Boston, Denver, Toronto, Portland).  Steve Dyer, Alan
>Batie, and I have attended four.

Hey, you forgot about ME!  I've only missed the Denver con!


>To those who never attended a con (and those who
>have) I hope everyone can try to attend the future ones wherever they might be
>(both initial suggestions -- Austin and Chicago) sound wonderful to me!


Austin would be great, as would Chicago.  I can house 20 people comfortably
( I have enough futon and bed space to sleep 16 people, plus some floorspace)
in my house, and I'm sure I can round up some other local motss folks to
volunteer some bedspace.  Hotels are also close by, for those so inclined.

Anyway, I had a great time at the con, and I, too, will post a retrospective
as soon as my head stops spinning from all that I've experienced.  


Ri-Jen

-- 
Ri-Jen Chou   		rjchou@decimator.sps.mot.com
Motorola Austin / Eclectic Environs
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: twpierce@amhux1.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: There was this sign in the window...
Keywords: @$#!% NewsWatcher bug...
Organization: Amherst College, Amherst MA
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 21:43:55 GMT

In article <84006@netnews.upenn.edu> sfsmith@pennsas.upenn.edu (Sandy F. Smith, Jr.) writes:

>This year, according to an article in
>the _Philadelphia Gay News_, the two-man ambulance crew put signs in the
>windows reading "We're Straight" in response to what they said were unwanted
>advances from people along the parade route.  According to the crew (as quoted
>in the article), bystanders were asking if they could "do it" with them in the
>back of the ambulance and yelling phrases like "try it, you don't know what
>you're missing."

I agree, this kind of behavior at pride parades is unknown to me.
Specifically, how are the parade attendees to know "what you're
missing" if you haven't already advertised your preferences?  I
suspect that the crew put up the signs in advance, fearing imagined
"advances," and that the audience reaction came in response to them
rather than the other way around.

>The paper was deluged with letters -- supporting the ambulance drivers.  The
>general tone of the letters ran like this: "Sexual harassment is sexual
>harassment, regardless who's doing the harassing.  Putting a "We're Straight"
>sign in the window in response to a come-on should be no more offensive than
>saying "no, I'm not interested" to a pick-up line in a bar.

A position I took myself not long ago in .motss.  But if that's true,
then why not use a simple "no, I'm not interested?"  Responding "I'm
straight" is more in tune with heterosexist or homophobic attitudes
toward same-sex come-ons.

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / "You mean there are TWO of you, Pierce?
\  / twpierce@amherst.edu      /  God help us all."
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) /   -- Major Charles Emerson Winchester III
From: michael@resonex.com (Michael Bryan)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Boy Scout Funding (continued...)
Date: 28 Jul 92 14:17:09 GMT
Organization: Resonex Inc., Sunnyvale CA

In article <1992Jul27.202547.10192@PacBell.COM> rjwill6@PacBell.COM (Rod Williams) writes:
>A cryptic and disturbing announcement on this morning's
>local TV news -- that both Bank of America and Wells
>Fargo Bank are "considering" reversing their decisions
>to stop funding the Boy Scouts.

It probably won't hurt to repost the appropriate contact information.
Please find a moment and call and write them, especially if you are
a current or a new customer:


        Karen Wegmann, Executive Vice President
        Wells Fargo Bank
        420 Montgomery Street
        San Francisco, California     94163
        1-800-242-4932

        Bank of America
        Human Resources Department
        P.O. Box 16290
        Phoenix, Arizona     85011-6290
        1-800-352-0495

        Liz Ahern, Consumer Affairs Manager
        Levi Strauss
        1155 Battery St.
        San Francisco CA 94111
        1-800-872-5384


As was mentioned earlier, letters tend to carry more weight than phone
calls, but call if you can't make time to write...

-- 
Michael Bryan        michael@resonex.com                     |     ,_,
"Pretenders I meet are making a trail along the way.         |    /oo \
They say that they know how to show me a path to guide my    |    <>__|
way to truth..." --- David York, "The Quiet of a Candle"     |    |  U|
From: adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: NYTN: One View on Queer Life in Cuba (long)
Date: 30 Jul 1992 16:28:58 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: mizar.usc.edu

In article <=q2x#sk@rpi.edu> buckmr@marcus.its.rpi.edu (Ron Buckmire) writes:
> NOTE: The following was  posted to the ACTIVISTS list and I can not verify
> it's veracity or accuracy. If someone knows more about Cuba I'd love to hear
> about it.

Oh, I just read this cunning little piece that Read something or
other posted a couple of hours ago.  It's a report he copied from
alt.progressive that he just *knew* we'd love.  Let's see if I can
remember what it was about.  Well, a lesbian went to Cuba and found
God.  I mean, Cuba truly is Heaven on Earth.  

But what's this?

> Via The NY Transfer News Service ~ All the News that Doesn't Fit

That sure looks familiar.

>              Report on lesbian and gay life in Cuba
>                 `A lot of changes are happening'
>
>                         By Sharon Ayling

It's the *same* *darn* report! 

But what gems can I pull out of it this time.  Hmmmm.
Oh my, I missed this the first time through:

> ...   The gay
> people I interviewed were really clear that while the leadership
> and people in the government have been influenced by the
> homophobic culture, it's not that the revolution itself is
> homophobic--or that socialism is inherently homophobic.

Of *course* the revolution isn't homophobic!  What *was* I
thinking?  Remember that concentration camp thing?  That was
because of the homophobic culture.  It had *nothing* to do 
with the revolution or the Cuban conception of socialism.

But I still *love* Comrade what's her name's beautiful:

> To me, gay liberation is about a lot more than gay rights.  Gay
> rights are important. We all benefit from them. But they don't
> give us housing or health care or education or any of those
> things that are basic human rights.

You tell 'em girl!

Arne


Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: thaaang@cwis.unomaha.edu (John Dorrance)
Subject: Re: the b-word
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 09:42:44 GMT

jakec@ralvmm.vnet.ibm.com (Jake Coughlin) writes:

>henry@ADS.COM (Henry Mensch) writes:

>> ever been called a "size queen" before? :)

>ok, private henry!  you get on YOUR knees too! :-)

>sgt. jake, militant homo

Jake, am I going to have to Pope you again?

Twee Pope, conveniently forgetting that 'seperation of church and
state' crap again (BTW, the con is lovely! Sim looks like Jesus would
if he were a '90's queer, Nelson is *TALL*, and I'm just *wild* about
Harry!!! There's a dearth of chicks, though...)

--
John Dorrance    ** Disco Diva y Flamenco Chico **    thaaang@odin.unomaha.edu

		I always thought of you as my brick wall
		   Built like an angel, six feet tall.
Newsgroups: soc.motss,rec.arts.tv,talk.politics.misc,rec.arts.tv.uk,alt.individualism,rec.arts.tv.soaps,alt.activism
From: gsh7w@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU (Greg Hennessy)
Subject: Re: Gayspace
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 02:37:38 GMT

In article <l76kmjINN2gt@mizar.usc.edu> adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:
#In article <2A733D51.5586@noiro.acs.uci.edu> 
#cedman@golem.ps.uci.edu (Carl Edman) blathers about
#something that I decided to delete.
#Drop dead, asshole.

And exactly how, pray tell, was Mr. Edman supposed to know that you
later decided to delete the article?




--
-Greg Hennessy, University of Virginia
 USPS Mail:     Astronomy Department, Charlottesville, VA 22903-2475 USA
 Internet:      gsh7w@virginia.edu  
 UUCP:		...!uunet!virginia!gsh7w
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: robertl@luciano.Stanford.EDU (Robert Lodenkamper)
Subject: Re: Sufficiency (was Getting Something off My Chest)
Organization: Stanford University
	<13bcpqINN7n1@agate.berkeley.edu>
	<1992Jul8.030643.9352@unlinfo.unl.edu> <thaaang.710586513@odin>
	<vanyel.710698730@camelot> <1992Jul23.115450.2811@macc.wisc.edu>
Date: 23 Jul 92 14:39:10

In article <1992Jul23.115450.2811@macc.wisc.edu> anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:

   In article <vanyel.710698730@camelot>
   vanyel@camelot.bradley.edu (Alan Williams) writes:

   I've plucked this from a much longer post and after thinking
   about some of the issues it raises for a while, have some
   questions and comments.

   >Discovering my sexuality is easily the one of the worst
   >things that's happened to me.

   Alan somewhat softens this statement below, but it still
   strikes me as standing in fairly stark contrast to the more
   common kind of "finally coming out was, whatever the
   difficulties, one of the best things that every happened to
   me" testimonial.

   Emotional states are such matters of degree that it's
   usually pretty hard to tell what mix of things is going on
   for Alan or any other similarly situated person.  But it
   certainly reads, to my ear, as being in not the best place,
   overall.

   For me, two questions immediately arise.  One is, is there
   anything I can say that will help this person or others in
   the like circumstances?  The other is, what's the mix of
   "it's the best" and "it's the worst" feelings in the larger
   cohort?

Well, my answer to your question starts with the observation that the
two "its" in your question represent different things to me.  That is,
discovering one's sexuality and coming out are two very different
things. 

To me, discovering one's sexuality is the simple realization that one
is "not normal" and most likely never will be "normal."  Given the
indoctrination we receive, I can't see how this could be anything but
a traumatic experience.

Coming out is far more.  I see it as a process of self-discovery and
self-acceptance that is most likely the only way to heal the trauma of
that initial discovery.  

So, I don't really see any inconsistency between Alan's testimony that
the discovery was one of the worst things that has happened to him and
the more often heard testimonials about the value of coming out.

In fact, my story is similar to Alan's in that knowing about my
sexuality was a negative thing for a very long time (at least ten
years).  I survived high school by becoming, for all intents and
purposes, asexual and asocial.  Had I had to deal with anti-gay
persecution as well as all the other shit then, I most likely would
have committed suicide.  For me, coming out was and is an essential
part of trying to heal myself.

- Bob
From: IO81409@MAINE.MAINE.EDU (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: motss.com
Date: 31 Jul 92 06:15:59 GMT
 <1992Jul30.163609.3660@spdcc.com> <1992Jul30.191119.12008@tc.cornell.edu>
 <1992Jul30.220924.14412@spdcc.com>
Organization: University of Maine System

i think that the fact that many more guys than wimmin go
to these things is a sex-based thing, but not the one
you all are looking at.  man, especially gay white men,
have MORE money than women!  i would be willing to bet
that there are a number of wimmin out there who would have LOVED
to haev gone, but coudl never have afforded it.  i could
MAYBE have gone if i could have carpooled with someoen
and crashed at someoene's house and cooked all my own
meals (packing my month's food stamps and buying groceries when
i get there).  even then it would be pushing it a bit.
pitching in for gas and food on the road and accomodations
en route woudl have been financially disastrous.

now, i am probably the poorest of the motss regulars, but
i would be willing to bet that most of the other wimmin do
not have the disposable income to just go running off to
oregon either.  y'all guys make more money than we do.

                                     -ailsa
Newsgroups: soc.motss,talk.politics.misc,alt.individualism,alt.activism
From: gary@colossus.cgd.ucar.edu (Gary Strand)
Subject: Re: On Banning Private Discrimination
Organization: Climate and Global Dynamics Division/NCAR, Boulder, CO
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 22:20:58 GMT

mp> Michael Portuesi
jd> Jeff Dauber
gs> Gary Strand

gs> Basically, just because I'm a white het male doesn't mean you can tar me
gs> with the same brush as you do other individuals who happen to be white,
gs> het, and male. Defensive? You bet.

jd> There is one group of people who frighten me more than any other (if I see
jd> them on the street, I will get the fuck into a safe place): heterosexual
jd> males between the ages of 16 and 25.

mp> Maybe if you lived in a situation where brutal beatings were a reality for
mp> not only you but also your friends, you might have at least some small
mp> basis for understanding the points Jeff is trying to make in this discus-
mp> sion.

  I know, I know, it looks like I'm invalidating his experience, and I can't 
  possibly hope to understand his life because I haven't been bashed by fag-
  bashers. 

  Well, he can't possibly understand *my* life either! It's not very nice to
  start lumping people together because of superficial characteristics that
  they share, and then get upset at the actions of some subset of the derived
  group, and not expect others of the same group to be perturbed.

  Jeff says that young het males scare the crap out of him. That's OK, but
  let's be clear that there are many many young het males who wouldn't think
  of harming a hair on his head, and quite likely would stand with him in
  defense against these thugs.

  Anyway, exclaiming one's own victimhood has never impressed me.

--
Gary Strand                      Opinions stated herein are mine alone and are
strandwg@ncar.ucar.edu            not representative of NCAR, UCAR, or the NSF
From: larry@bradley.bradley.edu (L. D. Stratton)
Subject: Re: Unitarian Universalists vote pro-LGB
Organization: Bradley University
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 17:56:18 GMT

In <1992Jul27.164904.8372@rlgvax.Reston.ICL.COM> michelle@rlgvax.Reston.ICL.COM (Michelle Elliott) writes:
>In article <1992Jul23.133643.41845@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> huxtable@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (Kathryn Huxtable) writes:
>>
>>Maybe because we Unitarian-Universalists are onto something.
>>A liberal non-creed oriented religion that affirms the
>>inherent worth and dignity of every human being.
>>

>In a fit of unabashed me-tooism, I must mention that the
>various and sundry Ethical Societies in the USA also fit
>that description quite well.

>"Ethical Humanism, the Official Religion of the Cultural Elite, aka
> Shameless Anti-Family Perverts" (tm)

   You forgot "And Damn proud of it!", Michelle.

>Michelle
>P.S. -- Don't forget:  "D.C. in '93:  Be here if you're queer"
From: rich@netcom.com (Richard Poppen)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: There was this sign in the window...
Keywords: @$#!% NewsWatcher bug...
Date: 22 Jul 92 02:21:53 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <84006@netnews.upenn.edu> sfsmith@pennsas.upenn.edu
(Sandy F. Smith, Jr.) writes:

>The organizers of the Pride Parade contract with a local ambulance service to
>provide emergency care for the marchers.  The ambulance brings up the rear in
>case anybody ahead needs assistance.  This year, according to an article in
>the _Philadelphia Gay News_, the two-man ambulance crew put signs in the
>windows reading "We're Straight" in response to what they said were unwanted
>advances from people along the parade route.  According to the crew (as quoted
>in the article), bystanders were asking if they could "do it" with them in the
>back of the ambulance and yelling phrases like "try it, you don't know what
>you're missing."
[...]
>The paper was deluged with letters -- supporting the ambulance drivers.  The
>general tone of the letters ran like this: "Sexual harassment is sexual
>harassment, regardless who's doing the harassing.  Putting a "We're Straight"
>sign in the window in response to a come-on should be no more offensive than
>saying "no, I'm not interested" to a pick-up line in a bar.  And now these
>men are getting punished for just saying no?  Come on--this is grossly 
>unfair."  The paper also excerpted a _Philadelphia Daily News_ column by
>Jill Porter that made much the same point.
[...]

Sure, it's inoffensive.  Right.  Like putting up a sign that says "we
don't practice miscegenation" while on duty at a MLK memorial rally.  A
sign saying "we're on duty" is better.  It's inoffensive, and carries a
more accurate meaning.  (Surely the ambulance drivers wouldn't want to
be propositioned by MOTOS either.)  It's what gay paramedics should put
up if they find themselves being propositioned in similar
circumstances; there's no need to list their orientation.

--Rich
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: coren@osf.org (Robert Coren)
Subject: Re: Children
Organization: Open Software Foundation
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 15:03:33 GMT

In article <1992Jul31.000923.8387@reed.edu>, nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar) writes:
> And large parts of history *still* aren't taught, for being too
> controversial. Most of my friends who are my age (20) aren't well
> informed about the Japanese internment camps, for example.

Trust me, dear, people considerably older than you didn't learn about
this in school either. (And, no, I'm not old enough to remember it
first-hand.)
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Advances Noticed
Date: 30 Jul 92 12:18:31 GMT
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison


In article <1992Jul30.102752.29842@spdcc.com> joe@spdcc.com
(Joseph Francis) writes:

>How should men (straight or gay) react to unwanted advances? I think
>the best example of this is a story from the Argos in Amsterdam. 
>[...]

>That's the point.

One of the most civilized places on the planet, surely.

-- 
Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin
Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson
NeXTmail w/attachments: anderson@yak.macc.wisc.edu  Bitnet: anderson@wiscmacc
Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888
Newsgroups: soc.motss