Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Fundamentalist Nightmare
From: <SECBH@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Date: Friday, 20 Nov 1992 08:59:28 EST
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center

In article <PETCH-191192082841@OBOE.GVG.TEK.COM>
Petch@gvg47.gvg.tek.com (Chuck Petch) writes:

>It amazes me how people who know very little about the religion they are
>criticizing manage to be so certain about their opinions. Being a
>fundamentalist simply means getting back to the fundamental ideas taughtin
>the Bible without embellishing it with present day fads,
>such as the idea that homosexuality is not morally offensive.

A definition which makes the term conveniently coincide with Mr. Petch's
likes, dislikes, fears, obsessions, etc., in this case homosexuality,
and allows him to ignore those parts of the Christian scriptures,
particularly the "Old Testament" which may not pander to his personal
agenda.  It is nothing more or less that the cafeteria approach to
the Christian scriptures which the fundamentalists and born agains
accuse other Christians of.

>Let's try a few specifics rather than the broad generalities the critics
>seem to prefer. First, Jesus did tell us to love one another. But if you
>know that much, you must also know that Jesus actively rebuked sin.

The reports of what Jesus supposed said according to the four gospels
show a man not always quite certain of his own attitude towards
his scriptures and religious usage.

>Next, is homosexuality a sin, or should we simply tolerate it? Check out
>Romans Chapter 1 in the NEW TESTAMENT where the apostle Paul refers to
>homosexuality as a sin so repulsive that it shouldn't even be
>spoken about. The language is absolutely clear--God did not make us for
>that kind of life.

That homosexuality is a "sin" to Mr. Petch doesn't isn't worth a fart
in jug when it comes to making secular law.  Despite the best efforts
of Robertson and other Christian fascists we do not yet have a
born again dictatorship in this country.  Jesus and Paul may have
great personal relevance to how Mr. Petch attempts to live his life,
they carry no weight in civil affairs.

>So where does that leave us. Should Christians hate homosexuals?
>Absolutely not. First, we have to remember that we ourselves are
>sinners and are not fit to judge others. Regarding other sinners,
>we are expected to love the person but hate the sin.

For someone who claims not to be fit to judge others you sure aren't
letting that stand in your way!

Christianity without a doubt has the bloodiest record of any religion
when it comes to this loving the sinner hating the sin BS.  Get
a clue, Mr. Petch, this is an argument to avoid given the Christian
track record.

>Practically speaking, that means ................

Yes, practically speaking that means it has never worked, more
succinctly: It is a crock of shit.

Most recently as applied to homosexuals in Oregon we saw that this
"loving" attracted thugs and neo-Nazis, resulted in verbal and physical
assaults on gay people, vandalism of homes and businesses owned by gay
people, the vandalism of churches and organizations which supported
them, burglary, and the murder by fire-bombing of a lesbian and gay
man.  That is what your fundamentalist and born again "loving the
sinner" means -- pretty words for ugly deeds, no change there.

>In actual practice, I know that there are many churches that reach out
>to homosexuals with the message that God loves them and wants them in
>his family. The Foursquare Church in San Francisco is one. They actively
>minister to and love the people in the homosexual community. But they
>expect any homosexual who wants to join the church to give up their sin.To

Sounds like the "eunuchs for Christ" bit.  How touching.  Put your
own cajones on the block, chum.

>do otherwise would be to condemn them to eternity without God, a very
>unloving act.

Presuming that this particular god of Mr. Petch's exists and that he
operates as Mr. Petch would have him do.

>Finally, is God evil because he condemns sin, judges people for it, and
>casts them into hell if they have not accepted
>Jesus as Savior? Certainly
>not. He's God. He made us, and He sets the rules He wants us to live by.
>It's our choice whether we want to live by them or not, but if we choose
>not to, we shouldn't come whining to Him on the day of judgement.

It is more than a little ironic that given such faith as Mr. Petch
displays that he and his fellow fundagelicals do such an extraordinary
amount of whining _before_ judgement day.

>................ And I can verify this much;
>life as a Christian has been far more joyful and satisfying than it ever
>was before I was a Christian.

Strange that what comes through loud and clear is a whining,
complaining, paranoic, vigilante.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Jack Carroll   "Man is nice enough, when he is not excited by religion."
<SECBH@CUNYVM>
                                                             Mark Twain