From: hxt0424@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Subject: Re: tha('c ma('t ve^` Lic.h su*? vietnam.
Reply-To: hxt0424@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 02:38:27 GMT

-Da~ nha^u nha('m go^`i, -DN tui chu+a co' di.p -do.c -du+o+.c ba`i na`o hay
nhu+ ba`i na^`y. Ca?m o+n anh Linh -da~ vie^'t ba`i na^`y bo+?i vi` no' -da~
gia'n tie^'p no'i le^n fa^`n na`o ca'i y' nghi~ nho? be' cu?a tui. Nha^n di.p
-da^y, -DN tui xin -du+o+.c phe'p che^m ba^.y vo^ mo^.t ca^u ma`tui -da~ ho.c 
lo'm tu+` ngu+o+`i kha'c:
		Du` ai no'i nga~ no'i nghie^ng,
	Lo`ng ta va^~n vu+~ng nhu+ kie^`ng ba cha^n
Tho^i -DN tui xin kie^'u tu+`, he.n bu+~a kha'c ga(.p la.i, 
     -DN



In article <1992Oct9.231453.6785@leland.Stanford.EDU>, ltran@elaine11.Stanford.EDU (LINH TRAN) writes:
>
>	Li.ch su+? cu?a nhie^`u nu+o+'c, vi` le^n dde^'n tho+`i xa xu+a tie^`n
>	su+?, khi ngu+o+`i ta co`n tho^ so+ va` thu+o+`ng dda(.t the^m nhu+~ng
>	chi tie^'t tha^`n thoa.i , ddo^'i vo+'i khoa ho.c nga`y nay xem ra nhu+
>	nhu+~ng ddie^`u bi.a dda(.t . Nhu+ng xe't cho cu`ng, chu'ng ta co'
>	the^? gia?i thi'ch ddu+o+.c mo^.t so^' nguo^`n go^'c cu?a da^n Vie^.t .
>
>	La^y vi' du. da^n Do Tha'i (Israel), theo nhu+ Kinh Cu+.u U=O='c (old
>	testament), co' nhu+~ng cho^~ xem ra^'t hoang ddu+o+`ng . Tha^.t ra,
>	nhu~ng te^n tuo^?i va` ddi.a danh, cu`ng tho+`i ddie^?m, co' le~ dde^`u
>	co' tha^.t . Cu~ng nhu+ nha('c to+'i ddu+'c Jesus, du` tin hay kho^ng
>	tin co' ddu+'c Me. DDo^`ng Trinh, ngu+o+`i tra va^~n kho^ng phu? nha^.n
>	ddu+o+'c la` co' mo^.t ngu+o+`i te6n nhu+ va^.y .
>
>	Mo^.t vi' du. kha'c, ma(.c du` ngu=o+`i ta co' the^? tin hay kho^ng tin
>	ra(`ng ddu+'c Pha^.t (Buhda) co' tha^.t su+.c sanh ra tu+` na'ch DDu+'c
>	Pha^.t Ma^~u kho^ng, ngu+o+`i ta kho^ng the^? no'i la` ddu+'c Pha^.t
>	kho^ng co' tha^.t .
>
>	Tro+? la.i su+? Vie^.t, du` ra(`ng co' nhie^`u truye^`n thuye^'t, vi`
>	li.ch su+? VN ddi ngu+o+.c le^n dde^'n tho+`i ma^'y nga`n na(m tru+o+'c
>	kho6ng co' gi` che'p la.i cho ddu'ng cha('c su+. tha^.t, chu'ng ta
>	kho6ng ne^n phu? nha^.n va` no'i la` da^n ta bi.a chuye^.n ma` ne^n .
>
>	Nhu+~ng tha^`n thoa.i, ha^`u he^'t ca'c da^n to^.c co' li.ch su+? be^`n
>	la^u dde^`u co' . Da^n Ta`u no'i ho. la` con cha'u Hoa`ng DDe^', vua
>	cu?A ho. la` con cu/a tro+`i, thay ma(.t tro+`i ma` cai tri. . Ho.c co'
>	nhie^.m vu. pha?i khai pha' tra'i dda^'t, ddem va(n minh dde^'n ca'c
>	da^n to^.c kha'c ke'm ho+n ho. . Da^n Nha^.t Bo^?n cu~ng tin ra(`ng ho.
>	la` con cha'u cu?a nu+~ Tha^`n Ma(.t Tro+`i . Da^n Do Tha'i xem ho.
>	la` da^n cu?a nu+o+'c chu'a tro+`i, do chu'a tro+`i ban dda(.c a^n
>	la` gio^'ng da^n do ddu+'c chu'a tro+`i cho.n . Da^n Vie^.t thi` xu+ng
>	mi`nh la` con cha'u cu?a Tha^`n No^ng (tha^`n tro^`ng lu'a ga.o).
>
>	Ve^` chuye^.n Tha'nh Gio^'ng (Phu` DDo^?ng Thie^n Vu+o+ng) chu'ng ta 
>	co' the^? no'i ddo' la` chuye^.n tha^`n thoa.i, ma(.c du` co' le~
>	dda~ co' mo^.t ngu+o+`i da^n Vie^.t dda~ ddu+'ng le^n cho^'ng la.i
>	ngoa.i xa^m, nhu+ tha'nh Gio^'ng va^.y, ne^n ddu+o+.c da^n gian
>	ki'nh tro.ng ma` tho+` phu+o+.ng .
>
>	Nhu+ng chu'ng ta kho^ng the^? no'i la` Tru+ng Cha('c kho6ng co' tha^.t 
>
>	Mo^.t ddie^`u la^`m la^~n khi phu? nha^.n Tru+ng Cha('c, no'i ra(`ng
>	mo^.t ngu+o+`i dda`n ba` nhu+ Tru+ng Cha('c kho^ng the^? na`o ca^`m 
>	qua^n trong mo^.t xa~ ho^.i Phu. He^. va` coi nhe. phu. nu+~ nhu xa~
>	ho^.i Vie^.t nam . DDo' la` mo^.t ddie^`u la^`m la^~n ne^'u nhi`n 
>	theo ca'i nhi`n cu?a ngu+o+`i ngoa.i quo^'c .
>
>	Ma(.c du` ngu+o+`i phu. nu+~ co' le~ kho^ng co' ddu? nhu+~ng quye^`n
>	bi`nh dda(?ng nhu+ phu. nu+~ Ta^y A^u nga`y nay (especially the end
>	of this century, since women didn't have the equal right up until
>	very recently), ngu+o+`i phu. nu+~ Vie^.t Nam khi xu+a kho^ng bi. thua
>	thie^.t gi` ma^'y trong xa~ ho^.i .
>
>
>	Ne^n nha('c la.i tho+`i ddie^?m lu'c ba^'y gio+` . Khi xe't dde^'n xa~
>	ho^.i mo^.t gio^'ng da^n , ta kho6ng ne^n ddem nhu+~ng value cu?a
>	tho+`i nay ma` a'p du.ng tre^n ngu+o+`i xu+a . Va` ta cu~ng ddu+`ng
>	ddem ca'i gi` nha^.n xe't tah^'y ddu+o+.c o+? the^' ky? ga^`n dda^y
>	ma` ddem a'p dda(.t le^n nhu+~ng ngu+o+`i tho+`i xu+a . Xa~ ho^.i VN,
>	nga`y ca`ng theo Ta`u ne^n mo+'i ca`ng khinh thu+o+`ng phu. nu+~. 
>	
>	Lu'c ba^'y gio+`, da^n Vie^.t bi. su+. cai tri. tru+.c tie^'p cu?a
>	ngu+o+`i Ta`u . Tu+` khi Trie^.u DDa` tha^u go^`m nu+o+'c Nam Vie^.t
>	va` Giao Chi? tha`nh mo^,.t nu+o+'c ddo^.c la^.p o+? phu+o+ng Nam,
>	(207 BC to 111 BC), da^n Vie^.t dda~ bi. Ba('c thuo^.c la^`n dda^`u . 
>	Nhu+ng ho. Trie^.u, du` la` ngu+o_`i Ta`u, va^~n du`ng ca'c La.c
>	Tu+o+'ng va` La.c Ha^`u dde^? cai tri. tru+.c tie^'p . Nhu+~ng phong
>	tu.c ta^.p qua'n dde6~u va^~n giu+~ nhu+ xu+a . Khi xu+a, ca'c La.c
>	Ha^`u, La.c Tu+o+'ng pha?i ddo'ng thue^' cho vua Hu`ng Vu+o+ng . Nay
>	ho. ddo'ng thue^' cho ho. Trie^.u , kho6ng ma^'y gi` thay ddo^?i .
>
>	DDe^'n na(m 111 BC, nu+o+'c nam Vie^.t cu/a nha` trie^.u bi. nu+o+'c
>	Ta`u chie^'m, nha` Ha'`n nu+o+'c Ta`u mo+'i dda(.t quan la.i cai tri.
>	tru+.c tie^'p, ma(.c du` va^~n co`n ca'c La.c Tu+o+'ng, La.c Ha^`u .
>	DDie^?m kha'c bie^.t la` nha` Ha'n muo^'n ddo^`ng ho'a da^n Vie^.t .
>	The^m nu+~a, da^n Ta`u theo chi'nh sa'ch thu+.c da^n, dda~ di cu+
>	qua Vie^.t dde^? chie^'m ruo^.ng dda^'t, la`m quye^`n lo+.i cu/a da^
>	n Vie^.t  bi. thie^.t ha.i . Va^.y ne^n mo+'i co' nhu+~ng ngu+o+`i
>	ha`o kie^.t muo^'n no^?i da^.y .
>
>	Tru+ng Cha('c la` con ga'i cu?a mo^.t gia ddi`nh qui' to^.c o+?Me^
>	Linh, la`ng Ha. Lo^i, to^?ng ye^n Qua?n, ti?nh Phu'c Ye^n nga`y nay, 
>	cu+o+'c con trai cu?a La.c Tu+o+'ng Chu Die^n te^n la` DDa(.ng Thi
>	Sa'ch .
>
>	Lu'c dda^`u, ho. chi? co' 2000 qua^n (Vie^.t Su+? Toa`n Thu+ cu?a
>	Pha.m Va(n So+n che'p la` 2000 nu+~ binh). Sau, ca'c bo^. la.c kha'c
>	ddem qua^n dde^'n giu'p cu~ng ddu+o+.c mo^.t va.n (10000).
>
>	To^ DDi.nh la` quan tha'i thu' Ta`u, bie^'t dd+o+.c mo+/i sai qua^n
>	ddi ba('t vo+. cho^`ng DDa(.ng Thi Sa'ch . Vi` chu+a chua^?n bi. xong
>	nhu+ng dda~ bi. lu`ng ba('t, ne^n Thi Sa'ch pha?i pha^'t co+` kho+?i
>	nghi~a vo^.i va`ng. Vi` va^.y, DDa(.ng Thi Sa'ch bi. tu+? tra^.n . 
>	Ba` Tru+ng Cha('c le^n thay cho^`ng ma` ca^`m qua^n . DDo' cho tha^'y
>	kho^ng pha?i ba` Tru+ng Cha('c dda~ tu+. y' kho+?i nghi~a ma` ddu+o+.c
>	ngu+o+_`i kha'c nghe theo . Cu~ng nho+` DDa(.ng Thi Sa'ch dda~ ddu+'ng
>	ra la`m tru+o+'c . Cu~ng nhu+ ba` Aquino o+? Philipines va^.y .
>
>	Nhu+ng chu'ng ta cu~ng pha?i nha^.n tha^'y ra(`ng mo^.t ngu+o+`i khi'
>	kha'i nhu+ Tru+ng Cha('c, tre^n the^' gio+'i co' ra^'t i't . Pha'p
>	co' Jeane d'Arc, va` ba` ta dda~ tro+? tha`nh vi. anh hu`ng co' mo^.t
>	kho^ng hai cu?a nu+o+'c na`y . 
>
>	Ngu+o+`i Vie^.t co' ca^u Tu.c ngu+~: gia(.c to+'i nha`, dda`n ba` 
>	cu~ng pha?i dda'nh. Tru+ng Tra('c kho^ng nhu+~ng dda'ng dde^? mo.i 
>	ngu+o+`i da^n Vie^.t npoi theo va^.y .
>
>	DDe^? tra? lo+`i ca^u ho?i: Tru+ng Tra('c co' the^.t hay kho^ng ?
>	ta co' the^? qua? quiye^'t la` co' the^.t . Ta`u dda~ pha?i sai
>	tu+o+'ng gio?i nha^'t cu/a ho. la` Ma~ Vie^.n dde^? ddi de.p cuo^.c
>	kho+?i nghi~a da`nh ddo^.c la^.p cu?a nha` ho. Tru+ng . Su+? sa'ch 
>	cu/a ho. che'p ra`nh ra`nh ra(`ng Ma~ Vie^.n pha?i ddo+.i dde^'n
>	ho+n hai na(m mo+'i de.p ddu+o+.c nha`' ho. Tru+ng (tu+` na(m 42
>	dde^'n na(m 40 BC). Ho. Ma~ chi? che'm ddu+o+.c Tru+ng Nhi` va`o
>	na(m 40 va` go+?i dda^`u ve^` Ta`u (Tru+ng Nhi` la` mo^.t nu+~
>	tu+o+'ng cu?a qua^n Vie^.t).
>
>	No'i to'm la.i, tin hay kho^ng tin va`o li.ch su+? da^n Vie^.t,
>	ddo' la` tu+` ca'i lo`ng mi`nh ma` ra . To^i nghi~ kho^ng ca^`n pha?i
>	thuye^'t phu.c ngu+o+`i My~ pha?i tin va`o su+? Vie^.t . Ho. co'
>	the^? mie^.t thi. chu'ng ta , ho. co' the6? kho^ng tin .  Chu'ng ta
>	kho6ng ca^`n pha?i thuey^'t phu.c ho. . DDie^`u quan tro.ng la`
>	chu'ng ta co' co`n tin o+? mo^.t truye^`n tho^'ng li.ch su+?, trong
>	ddo' co' nhu+~ng gu+o+ng hy sinh vi` To^? Quo^'c, co' nhu+~ng ddoa.n
>	oai hu`ng, cu~ng co' nhu+~ng ke? ba'n nu+o+'c va` nhu+~ng khi he`n ma.t .
>	Ne^'u chu'ng ta co`n tin la` da^n Vie^.t se~ co' mo^.t cho^~ ddu+'ng
>	cu`ng chung vai ca.nh tranh vo+'i quo^'c te^', ne^'u chu'ng ta co`n
>	tin ra(`ng nhu+~ng tranh dda^'u tu+` nga`n xu+a cu?a cha o^ng ta 
>	cho dde^'n nay chi? dde^? cho chu'ng ta va` con cha'u chu'ng ta co'
>	mo^.t ca'i cho^~ ddu+'ng a^'y, chu'ng ta mo+'i tah^'y nhu+~ng ly'
>	thuye^'t cao sie^u, the^' gio+'i dda.i ddo^`ng, co^.ng sa?n quo^'c
>	te^', etc chi? la` nhu+~ng ca'i du`ng dde^? bi.t ma('t ngu+o+`i
>	Vie^.t ma` tho^i . 
>
>	Mo^.t quye^?n sa'ch kha' dda^`y ddu/ ve^` su+? Vie^.t, scientific
>	va` co' da^~n gia?i, la` quye^?n Vie^./t Su+? Toa`n Thu+ cu?a
>	Pha.m Va(n So+n . Sa'ch da^`y 700 trang, cho ne^n request cu?a ba.n ve^` 
>	vie^.c thu go.n no' la.i ma` dda(ng tre6n net tha^.t ra^'t kho' la`m .
>	Ngay vie^.c che'p ca'c nga`y tha'ng quan tro.ng cu~ng to^'n nhie^`u
>	bandwidth. Va^.y ne^n mong ba.n tho^ng ca?m .
>
>	Linh 
>	
>
>
>
>tha@ecs.umass.edu writes:
>: Xinh chao` ta^'t ca'c ba.n!
>:     Li.ch su*? Vietnam kho^ng pha?i la` de^? bie^n va` kho^ng 
>: kho^ng pha?i la` de^? nho*' bo*?i vi` mo^?i khi ba.n bie^n hay
>: la` noi' ve^` Lic.h Su*? vietnam ma` no'i sai hay la` bie^n sai
>: thi` kho^? la('m  [ kho^ng bi. ngu*o*`i ta chu*o*?i ma` co`n bi.
>: ngu*o*`i ta no'i xa^'u nu*a~ -do', thie^.t la` kho^n nha` da.i cho*.]
>: e.i    A(n qu?a nho*' ke? tro`ng ca^y
>:        uo^'ng nu*o*'c pha?i nho*' nguo^`n.
>: Cu~ng nhu* ta sinh ra o*? que^ hu*o*ng ta thi` ta pha?i nho*'
>: pho^ng tu.c va` Lic.h su* cu~a que^ hu*o*ng ta tu*` -do*`i
>: xu*a -de^? la.i ... Va^y ho^m nay to^i muo^'n ti`m hie^?u the^m va`i 
>: y' khie^'n cu~a ca'c ba.n nghi? ra sao -do^'i vo*'i ngu*o*`i my?
>: sau khi ho. -do.c xong li.ch su* vietnam tu* -do*i` la.c long qua^n
>: cho -de^'n khi -do*`i pha'p.
>:   Ca'c ba.n nghi? ho. se? nghi? ra sao?
>:    ho. co' tinh tu*o*?ng ve^` li.ch su*/ vietnam kho^ng hay la`
>:    nhu*~ng ca^u chuye^.n folk tails kho^ng??
>:     e.i  tha'nh gio^'ng [va^?n co`n co' chu*o*'ng minh o*? ha` no^.i]
>:          hay la` hai ba` tru*o*ng -du~i bo.n xa^n la(ng
>:          ra  kho?i nu*o*'c ma` trong lu'c -do' -da`n ba` kho^ng co'
>:          que^`n the^' gi` he^'t ca?.
>: 
>: thank you everybody. I got to go....
>:                              cuong. 
>: 
	   ******************************************************
   	   *		  Du~ ho.c, du~ ngu	                *
	   *	Chi' qua^n tu+? cu+?u cha^u la^.p nghie^.p,     *
	   *	   -Da.i tru+o+.ng phu tu+' ha?i vi gia         *  
	   *    Tha.ch kha? pha', nan -doa.t ky` kie^n          *
	   *	  Chu kha? ma, nan -doa.t ky` xi'ch.	        *
 	   ******************************************************	
Newsgroups: soc.culture.vietnamese