From: selvakum@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca (C.R.Selvakumar - Electrical Engineering)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.tamil
Subject: Re: Thiruppaavai Verses 18-20
Date: 6 Jan 93 00:08:27 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo

In article <MANI.93Jan4131854@aix.Berkeley.EDU> mani@sprite.Berkeley.EDU writes:
>In article <C0C9pq.GpC@ireq.hydro.qc.ca> srini@ireq-num.hydro.qc.ca (Srinivasan K.) writes:
>
>   I suggested the idea on December 12. But there was no response.
>   I notice that the Sanskrit word content in 'thiruvembaavai' is
>   substantially 'higher' than in 'thiruppaavai'. There are many
>   similar verse constructions. I think 'thiruvembaavai' was
>   written after thiruppaavai. Who is the author? Also a lady?
>   Is she a lady naayanmaar?
>
>   K. Srinivasan at Hydro Quebec.
>
>
>As another poster has written, the Tiruvempaavai is by
>Maanikkavaasagar, and was almost definitely written after the
                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Tiruppaavai.  Norman Cutler has written a book entitled
^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    Is it possible to list a few reasons. What is the supposed
    period of aruLmigu ANdaaL ( BTW ANdaaL can mean one who ruled.
    Interestingly, there is another possibility !
    Just as viewing God as a form of Mother-Father entity namely
    'ammai_appar' in the traditional Saiva tradition and thus the 
     words 'amman' to denote the mother Godess with a male 
     suffix 'an' in the word 'amman', there is a reverse
     situation in 'aaNdaaL' ! 'aaN' means male ! )
    
>"Consider Our Vow" that contains translations of both, and in
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>his introduction writes that it is quite clear that the
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Tiruvempaavai is modeled on the Tiruppaavai.  From his point of
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    Can you please let us know the reasons adduced by Norman Cutler
    to regard 'thiruvembaavai' as a follow up work ?
    Thiruvembavai and Thiruppaavai could be in the tradition of
    writing 'waking up songs' for kings etc. The Thiruvaasagam's
    'thiuvammaanai' etc. are said to be as traditional
    activities on which songs are written. The 'unthIpaRa' is another
    of Thiruvaasagam's songs this tradition was recently 
    continued by Sri RamaNa Maharishi ( Tamil songs composed by him).
    'ThirupoRchuNNam idiththal' is another and similarly Sri
     RamaNa Maharishi had composed songs on the activities of
    'appalam iduthal' ( making thin flakes of 'appaLam'). BUT
     MOST IMPORTANTLY these activities refer to deeper spiritual
     process. The thiruvembaavai ( 20 songs) and 'thiruppaLLiyezhuchchi'
     ( I think 10 songs) are used as equivalent to 30 songs (?)
     of thiruppaavai to be sung in maargazhi month. 
     
    
>view, it also seems to lack the emotion and spontanaiety of
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Andal.
^^^^^^
 
      I don't think comparison is appropriate, but the septh of emotion 
      and beauty of spontaneity is incomparably great in both; however
      the beauty of scenes ( outward meaning) described in thiruppaavai
      is definitely appears superior. Literary comparison will be
      interesting.
>
>One interesting point is that while the paavai of Andal fits
>neatly into the story of Krishna and the Gopis, the basis for
>the Tiruvempaavai has to be somewhat contrived, since stories
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>about Shiva do not contain any reference to Gopis or girls
>praying together for their lover.

       No. The concept of Gopis in Vaishnavism and the
       concept of 'sivanadiyaar' or 'adimai' in Saivism are
       the very same. If you consider Gopis as merely 'some WOMEN'
       then your point is quite valid. Gopis are not just WOMEN.
       Only Lord Krishna is "male" and all the living beings 
       are "female" . 
       Men are also 'Gopis' in the true meaning of 
       Krishna and Gopis. The dress of Gopis are not anything but
       the different disguises used by our ego which Lord
       Krishna 'takes away' and so Gopis are not able to come out..
       There is much sublime beauty of spiritual process but
       those who don't understand talk of Sri Krishna as 
       one who chases women and think Rama is 'ekapaththini virathan'. 
       [ you might also remember the story of
       Baktha Meera going to a 'Guru' whose desiple refuses audience
       because this Guru does not see 'women' for which Meera asks
       'are there men other than Sri Krishna ?' ; hearing this
        apparently the Guru came out to receive Meera.]

       This concept is the same in Saivism and Sakthism.  

       Both thiruvembaavai and thiruppaavai ARE for the INNER
       awakening ( thiruppaLLiyezhuchchi is also in the category).
        
>
>Peace,
>Mani


      anbudan
      -Selva
Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian