HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: suzanne@mailhub.scf.lmsc.lockheed.com (Suzanne Barrett)
Subject: Re: My Ugly American post for the year....
Organization: Lockheed Santa Cruz, CA.
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 92 19:13:13 GMT

In article <BvE5DM.8EK@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> newt@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Michael Steven Newton) writes:

>mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach) writes:

>>From: gln@cs.arizona.edu (Gary L. Newell)
>>>Frankly - who gives a damn? I couldn't care less what Europeans think of
>>>the US or Americans. In fact, I doubt if most americans would give
>>>two-cents for the views on the US from Europeans. We are still the leader
>>>of the free world and we are still the most powerful nation on earth.

>>This sort of blind "we are the best" attitude was just the
>>thing which brought Britain down. History shows us that this
>>complacent trumpet-blowing is one of the prime signs of
>>decline. Everything is allowed to fall to pieces, sharper and
>>more competent competitors are ignored, debts are built up
>>which can never be repaid. Every empire in history shows this
>>pattern - Rome, Spain, Britain. "Who gives a damn - we're the
>>best" could be the epitath for all of them.

>  Yes, pride goeth before a fall.  Thanks, Gary, for displaying the
>  unspoken truth which so many Americans hide deep in their tiny hearts
>  but are too often afraid to expose in the cold light of day.  The rest
>  of us are terribly ashamed of our culture, language and country, and
>  wish we could adopt the greatness of your shining exemplary country,
>  especially as advertised on your wonderful cultural awareness campaign
>  you've been promoting through television.

>  How shall we start?  Perhaps we could first find a number of poor
>  third world nations with untapped natural resources, overthrow their
>  governments (by replacing less just rule by "democracy"), and put in
>  some rulers who would owe us something.  Much like the CIA has done
>  to ensure the dominance of the US.

>  Any more suggestions, oh enlightened one?

>  -- mn

Michael,
  Thanks for your post.  I am an American, and I am *NOT* proud to be 
associated with posters like gln who epitomize what constitutes true Ugly 
American behavior.  Surely he will be more at home on another board?
scb 
detestable  
-----
suzanne@mailhub.scf.lmsc.lockheed.com
Xref: sparky soc.culture.celtic:6257 soc.culture.usa:7534
From: mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: Americans! *smile*
Date: 28 Sep 92 10:10:50 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London, UK.

From: silva@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Holly Silva)
>I sense that stock anti-americanism and attendant contempt for
>american patriotism is less rooted in any intrinsic European wisdom or
>modesty than in a fairly petty, vicious desire to see the US in trouble.

No it is not. It is rooted in the fact that we have seen how
nationalism has contributed to wars, death, imperialistic
conquest, suppression of minorities, racism and many other evils.
Nationalism of the sort which Americans find natural and
unexceptional is in Europe regarded as the height of bad
manners, boorish and dangerous.

Matthew Huntbach
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: librik@cory.Berkeley.EDU (David Librik)
Subject: Re: My Ugly American post for the year....
Organization: University of California, at Berkeley
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 19:31:57 GMT

newt@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Michael Steven Newton) writes:

>mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach) writes:

>  The point is that *any* large centralized force with a huge amount of
>  wealth and power over the world, which broadcasts media reeking with
>  its own dogma and cultural values, is going to have a devastating effect
>  on native cultures everywhere, stamping them out like so many little
>  matches.  Look around the world right now, and see how little groups of
>  people are sometimes taking arms to protect what little they have left
>  of their language and culture: Basque rebels, Welsh activists, 
>  Lithuanians, American Indians, Quebec separatists, etc etc.

Not to commit the mortal sin of dragging this conversation back to things
Celtic, but -- at least for the Welsh, I can assure you that the "influence"
politically aware Welsh-speaking Welshmen are fighting is not American.
Look a little closer to home.  (The same applies to the Basques, I believe.)
One nationalist academic I know told me how he loves to give talks on
Wales to Americans: they don't have all the prejudices and unconscious
"Britain = England" attitudes of a certain other English-speaking nation.

- David Librik
librik@cory.Berkeley.Edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: il26@vaxb.acs.unt.edu
Subject: Looking for contacts in Ireland.
Summary: Looking for contacts in Ireland.
Reply-To: il26@vaxb.acs.unt.edu
Organization: University of North Texas
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 22:23:15 GMT

I will be going to Ireland in January next year, and will be there
for about 4 weeks.  This will be my first trip there, and Ideally,
I'd like to live there for several months.  I'd appreciate any
suggestions or comments on living and working in Ireland. While
I don't have a specific place in mind, my preference would be
in a country setting or small town.  I'm hoping to do some
personal research while I'm there.  Thanks for the help.

Robert Hunter.
From: halpin@vax.oxford.ac.uk
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Ulick-ball
Date: 6 Oct 92 15:52:31 GMT
Organization: Oxford University VAX 6620

In article <Bvp4Eo.9Hy@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk>, dam@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (David Morning) writes:
> halpin@vax.oxford.ac.uk writes:
>>dam@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (David Morning) rebuts:
>>> ulick@gershwin.helios.nd.edu (Ulick Stafford) who slags off Gary spain:
> 
>>> are Americans, your creating a straw man Ullick. It's football in just about
>>> every European country as well as South American countries.
> 
> 
>>To be fair to Ulick (why, when he isn't being fair to Gary?), this
>>isn't quite correct. 
> 
> You're missing the point. Ulick is complaining of Gary using the term
> "football" instead of what he believes is the correct term 'soccer'
> 
> Football is almost (though not entirely) universal term in *many* countries
> to mean what Ulick refers to as 'soccer'. 

> Dave

I take your point, as long as you are not also implying that (in
English, at any rate) `soccer' isn't also an `almost (though not
entirely) universal' term for the game. Neither, is, of course, the
`correct' term; both are common, and usage depends on context.

Also, to a large extent it is irrelevant what other languages call
the game, since their adoption of the term is purely phonetic and
thereby has no lower levels of meaning.

Brendan

Brendan Halpin                    Email: HALPIN@VAX.OXFORD.AC.UK
Nuffield College                  Phone: +44 865 278642
Oxford OX1 1NF
United Kingdom
From: dam@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (David Morning)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Scottish Newsgroup
Date: 5 Oct 92 12:15:13 GMT
Organization: Glasgow University Computing Science Dept.

cc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Chris Cooke) writes:

>In article <1992Oct4.195647.4319@news.clarkson.edu> walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,) writes:

>   From article <1992Oct4.082321.3797@rdg.dec.com>, by cockburn@edieng.enet.dec.com (Craig Cockburn):
>   > 
>   > Irn Bru
>   >

>   This should obviously carry a Government Health Warning, since increased
>   levels of iron in the blood has been linked with heart attacks. There we
>   now have a discussion going in this group about Irn Bru.

>They have to call it "Irn Bru" because it doesn't have iron in it any more.
>It used to be called "Iron Brew".

All together now (in best pantomime tradition):-

                     OH! YES IT DOES!!!

Ferrous something-or-other-very-weird-but-I-think-ammonia-is-part-of-it.
Look on a can or a bottle.

Barr's Irn Bru has always been called that. They even had a character they
called Ba Bru and a comic strip in the People's Friend about him - until the
Race Relations Act came in and Ba Bru went the same way as the Robertsons
Jam Golly.

"Iron Brew" is the name used by other soft drink manufacturers who try to
sell copies of the original Barr's stuff. They use the name to avoid infringing
copyright.


Dave

--
From: gsut@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Giles Sutherland)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Scotland should have a voice
Date: 2 Oct 92 15:04:04 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Edinburgh

In article <BvE4wL.804@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk>, newt@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Michael Steven Newton) writes:
> riordanm@cs.tcd.ie (Mark Riordan) writes:

> 
>   As long as we can keep this group centred around
>   things Celtic, whether they pertain to modern day Scotland, ancient
>   Gaul and everything in between

The point I was trying to make was that not everything that happens in Scotland would
come under the label "Celtic" - to some the term has mythopoetic resonances steeped in
Scotch mist, celtic twilight and the fey...

How could you justify the decline of shipbuilding on the Clyde as a topic to be
discussed under Celtic culture.  Or the privatisation of water. Or our education 
system etc.  Scotland is not a subgroup of Celtic.

>The prize of a wealthy, happy Scotland, contented with its position, is a glittering
>one; but it is unlikely to mean a depoliticised, purely material Scotland - a sated
>Scotland.  A Scotland genuinely at ease with itself would be an argumentative,
>grown-up Scotland with a lively parliament as well as a strong economy - a conscience
>and a tongue, as well as limbs and a body.  And when it does speak, its voice will be
>sharp and fresh.  And its views will perhaps surprise us.

"The Scotsman"  29/9/92

Let us help Scotland to achieve that voice through a measure of electronic democracy.
We can only be richer for the debate.



Giles Sutherland.
From: morna@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Morna J Findlay)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Dreaded `Merkins again ( Was Re: Kilt availability.)
Date: 6 Oct 92 10:37:20 GMT
Reply-To: morna@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Morna J Findlay)
Organization: Laboratory for the Foundations of Computer Science, Edinburgh U

In article <1992Oct5.195140.16383@rdg.dec.com> cockburn@edieng.enet.dec.com (Craig Cockburn) writes:
>
>In article <1992Oct5.160625.7575@st-andrews.ac.uk>, rm4@st-andrews.ac.uk (Rosa Michaelson) writes...
>> 
>>OK Craig - I agree that your original posting could be reinterpreted
>>as a advising a woman to save money but it is quite obvious that the
>>technicality you cling too is <a> A kilt is a male garment and <b> 
>>women can not there fore wear it and <c> only those who gather at
>>those ridiculous MALE dominated gaelic gatherings MUST KNOW BEST.
>> 
>Well, given the choice between a woman in an American pipe band and 
>people living in the highlands, I know who'd I'd turn to for advice
>on the kilt.


Tsk tsk - I think you should retract that facetious statement Craig - it
smacks of pique. Rosa, as you well know, lives in Scotland.

And those contemptible creatures "American women in pipe bands" ( shuddder!)
presumably follow the same stupid, brainless rules invented by a bunch
of Victorian absentee landlords as those "people living in the
highlands" who you seem to imply are a source of aboriginal wisdom and
authority for your views. 


Bleeding hell - the first "officially registered" tartan, registered
with the Lord Lyon in Edinburgh was bleeding "Maple Leaf" for goodness
sake!. Some tradition!


What's this "THE Kilt" anyway. It's only a bit of cloth - not ( I hope)
the embodiment of Scottish Culture, Hopes and Dreams and as such an
object for Veneration. Hells Bells. Gie's a break.


M

--
Morna Findlay 					JANET:morna@uk.ac.ed.dcs 
	Thanksgiving For a National Victory (Robert Burns)
Ye hypocrites! are these your pranks? To murder men and give God thanks?
Desist, for shame! Proceed no further: God won't accept your thanks for murther.
From: morna@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Morna J Findlay)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Celtic Nationalism or something similar
Date: 30 Sep 92 12:18:25 GMT
Reply-To: morna@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Morna J Findlay)
Organization: Laboratory for the Foundations of Computer Science, Edinburgh U


Well, folks, s.c.c is lasting all the way though my pieces(*) today,
which is quite fun.

Apologies to one or two folk who it seems I have misquoted - my SO
insists I am the untidiest person on the planet - and for a few
of my generalisations about "loving ones country " etc.


What has interested me in recent weeks on s.c.c is that I've seen
occasional passing references to Celtic nationalism, for want of a 
better term. Some people have said that Nazis ( let's not bother
with the "neo") use the Celtic crodd as a favorite symbol, someone else
said US personal columns have people looking for "Celtic" partners.
I was reading one such column ( for my pal Lesley, you understand ) ans
saw a similar ad from an "American Academic" who wanted a "Buxom
Celtic Redhead" to have weans(#) with.


Do I detect a suggestion in the air that Celtic-ness is replacing
Aryan-ness as some sort of "ideal" to certain nasty types?


Anyone care to elaborate?



M

 Scottish Cultural Notes * == Sandwiches
			 # == sproglets
--
Morna Findlay 					JANET:morna@uk.ac.ed.dcs 
	Thanksgiving For a National Victory (Robert Burns)
Ye hypocrites! are these your pranks? To murder men and give God thanks?
Desist, for shame! Proceed no further: God won't accept your thanks for murther.
From: dam@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (David Morning)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Cliff Richard
Date: 5 Oct 92 12:38:47 GMT
Organization: Glasgow University Computing Science Dept.

fusco@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Andrew Fusco) writes:

>shazam@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu writes:

>>Maybe I did not make myself clear.  Cliff Richard did not have any
>>popular hits other than Devil Women in AMERICA that i know of.
>>That song WAS recorded and released in  AMERICA a couple of decades
>>ago...it was in the 70's.  As far as what he has done in other countries, 
>>I do not know.  If he had any Christian music released in the USA, I 
>>had not heard it.  

>Well, I remember that he had a few hits in the early 1980s in the US.
>"We Don't Talk Anymore," in 1980, and then "Suddenly," a duet with
>Olivia Newton-John a little later. Also, I think there was a song called
>"A Little in Love."

I know this may sound a bit bizarre, but can you tell me what Cliff Richard
and his music has to do with soc.culture.celtic?

Dave

--
From: gln@cs.arizona.edu (Gary L. Newell)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: European superiority
Date: 3 Oct 92 09:13:09 GMT
Organization: U of Arizona CS Dept, Tucson


 I am not sure if my response to an  earlier message made it through or
not so I will attempt to address this issue again. 

 I am interested in the premise, that many seem to believe, that
somehow Europeans, in particular the British, have in some way 
surpassed Americans in their moral/ethical views of nationalism. I
question this because I remember clearly a time not so long ago
when our friends in britain decided that it was necessary to send their
navy, along with a few cruise liners, to fight the Argentinians over
an island of sheep. As I remember it - the images were of people
waving flags, singing songs, and ranting in various ways over the
possibility that British soldiers might face Argentine soldiers on the
battle field - I can remember interviews with the "man on the street"
which sounded very similar to the attitudes that some here seem to
freely throw at Americans. Now I wonder - are we to assume that this was
simply a distortion? Some sort of joke laid upon the American public
to make us believe that the British population were supportive of
the war? If so, then why is it that you are so quick to quote from
the radical right wing of our country, who by all measure make up only
20% of the Republican party with which they are associated? If not, then
when exactly did this seeming metaphysical metamorphasis take place? 
We've heard how the Europeans, and in particular the British, have
overcome their nationalistic tendancies, we've heard how Americans are to blame
for the lack of Irish speaking citizens in the Republic (the fact that this was
stated and not over-whelmingly laughed at indicates a great deal about this 
supposed "Celtic group") - so what exactly is the story?? Was the Falkland war
simply a case of the govt. of Britain ignoring the will of its people or 
are we to assume that this amazing change took place since that amazing
"war"?? Now I have to go and finish my Pepsi before the rerun of Married
with Children comes on (but first I intend to go dig up a native American 
burial site for my own personal profit of course) and then I need to wax my new 
Dodge Grand Caravan that I got at 7% interest and no money down (undoubtedly
due to the physical effort of some third world nation's labor) - but then again
the microwave oven needs cleaning (but hell, I can always hire some
illegal immigrant from mexico to do it right???) and all three of my color
TV's could use a wipe or two.... ah hell... I'll wait until tomorrow
after I've played with the Mac II and listened to the CD player for
awhile.... and to think I'm only a student..... if only I had time to 
learn the Zen-like teachings of Europeans.....


			gln

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: Michael G Hines <HINESMG@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Kilt availability.
Organization: Purdue University
 <1992Sep15.224257.28989@rdg.dec.com> <1992Sep16.093629.376@st-andrews.ac.uk>
 <BvEx1x.J15@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 15:54:36 GMT

In most of the scottish games that I have attended the women wear either
non-scottish (which they get counted against them) or they wear kilted
skirts.

Mike
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: eamon@netcom.com (Charles E Taggart)
Subject: Re: Scottish Newsgroup
Summary: The USDA doesn't care for haggis
Keywords: haggis
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 04:43:35 GMT

Barbara G. Jacob-McDowell wrote:

>Where/how can I get hold of some haggis for this year's Burns Night,
>since the Scottish friend who got his mum to send him some (marked
>"Confectionary") for the past 2 yrs. is now in Japan--? I doubt VERY
>much if American butchers would supply the traditional ingredients,
>which is also why it's so hard to obtain here--I can't ask for it at our
>local Giant Eagle Supermarket.

I heard a story recently (perhaps apocryphal) that a group of Scots and other
Burns aficionadoes tried to get some haggis sent over for their Rabbie
Burns Night celebration, but the U.S. Department of Agriculture and U.S.
Customs refused to admit the haggis into the country, on grounds that it
was "unfit for human consumption" by U.S.D.A. standards.

They have no sense of adventure, that lot ... the haggis I had in
Edinburgh was excellent (although I must confess that the pint of McEwan's
and the shot of Macallan that washed it down were a bit of a help).
      ,
   -- Eamon
-- 
          ,                                          
  Charles Eamon Taggart   | "Time and space are playing games with people 
     eamon@netcom.com     |  who don't understand / You can't talk about
   eamont@well.sf.ca.us   |  the weather when you've killed the weatherman."
 Santa Monica, California |                      -- Toasted Heretic
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
From: gln@cs.arizona.edu (Gary L. Newell)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: European superiority
Date: 4 Oct 92 19:48:43 GMT
Organization: U of Arizona CS Dept, Tucson

In article <librik.718144865@cory.Berkeley.EDU>, librik@cory.Berkeley.EDU (David Librik) writes:
> >This rather sick flaunting of you "wealth" would be greatly appreciated
> >by the very poor families up in Northern NY state, Alabama, Missippi,
> >etc.... 
> 
> It is incredible that, in a group that claims to discuss cultures of
> the British Isles -- the home of offhanded sarcasm, piss-taking, and
> black humor -- that no one seems to have noticed that Gary Newell is
> joking.  Posing.  Kidding.

I would like a chance to point out that I decided to take on a somewhat
tongue-in-cheek devil's advocate position after watching the charges
against Americans go from fairly solid to incredibly outrageous over
a 2-3 day period. The fact that we have now reached the point where
Americans are responsible for the decline of Celtic culture, I wonder if
I wasn't correct that this has little to do with heart-felt concern
and much more to do with envy - anyway, as David
points out, my post was entitled "My ugly American post for the year".
I was attempting to both play the extremist while at the same time trying
to point out that some the most extreme claims were absurd at best. 
I must admit that I was hoping at least a few people would notice the
hypocrisy in some of the posts but so be it.... 

> It's been funny watching all these wide-eyed, indignant Earnest Americans
> recoil in shock, though.  Didn't any of you notice the title of the
> original article, "ugly American post of the year?"

 It was interesting to note the reactions - at first I received a bundle of
rather supportive messages, followed a day or so later by outraged messages
on the order of "how dare you embarrass Americans" followed by "I don't
agree with you so stop posting or else" messages. 

 By the way, I am Liberal, support the pro-choice movt., believe in 
liberal immigration policies, support gun-control, cannot afford
hwealth-care for myself or family, was a recipient of food stamps
5 years ago when my third child was born, barely make enough to get by,
am well aware of poverty in this country (trust me one need not
travel to the east coast to find some of the worst living conditions
in the country as they exist here in the southwest in an order of 
magnitude greater than most parts of the US), I am also not a fan of
my country's seeming policy of sending troops to foreign soils, particularly
in this hemisphere, over issues which at best can be categorized as
questionable. Now with that said, I still think that anyone
who believes that the US is to blame for the ills of modern Celts, is low
a few quarts...



				gln



Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: bross@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA (Brian J Ross)
Subject: Re: Celtic Nationalism or something similar
Organization: Dept of Computer Science, Brock University
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 20:25:20 GMT

morna@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Morna J Findlay) writes:
: 
: What has interested me in recent weeks on s.c.c is that I've seen
: occasional passing references to Celtic nationalism, for want of a 
: better term. Some people have said that Nazis ( let's not bother
: with the "neo") use the Celtic crodd as a favorite symbol, 
: [...] 
: Do I detect a suggestion in the air that Celtic-ness is replacing
: Aryan-ness as some sort of "ideal" to certain nasty types?
: 
: Anyone care to elaborate?

I was the person you mention who spoke of the skin's affinity for
the circled-cross as one of a number of symbols for their "movement".
However, to be fair, they use a pretty loose rendition of the celtic cross,
and I doubt there's any connection with "Celtic-ness", just as the 
Nazi swastika has no relationship with "Sanskrit-ness".

Although, come to think of it, lots of skinheads do wear tartan clothing.  
(I wonder from which "klan" it belongs to?  (sorry). )

-- 
Brian Ross                         "I fell into some ice and your scientists 
bross@sandcastle.cosc.brocku.ca     thawed me! Your modern world frightens and
                                    confuses me!" -- Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer