From: Frank Caherty <caherty@wizard.nrl.navy.mil>
Subject: Re: Tipper/ FreeSpeech / What are Rights? (LONG)
Reply-To: caherty@wizard.nrl.navy.mil
Organization: The Internet
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 22:14:44 GMT

Once again I take keyboard in lap to respond to Jordan Schwartz (ST702459
@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU) who writes:

| Aside from all the other issues involved in a free speech debate, I think
| this is the most important thing to keep in mind: We must not let our
| opinions of whether or not Tipper Gore is a goody-goody, a righteous
| woman, or a fanatic to negatively effect the aspirations of the Clinton/
| Gore ticket. It is our only hope to get our sorry ass country out of the
| mess that 12 self-indulgent Reagan/Bush years have gotten us into. In any
| case, I'd have twice as much respect for someone who stands up for what she
| believes in, regardless whether I agree with it, then some dumpy old nobody
| who is content to live in her big husband's shadow.

The first sentence is simply a statement of what Mr. Schwartz thinks is 
important here.  It has nothing to do with the free speech debate.  The 
second sentence is again an expression of opinion.  The 3rd sentence is 
simply a personal attack, included for unguessable reasons.

| As far as free speech goes: We all agree it is not an *absolute* right.

Again: Who's this "we" you're talking about here.  I am not of this we,
and I don't agree.  Mr. Schwartz has not offered any definition of what 
a right is, now he is claiming that there is some (undefined) class of 
absolute rights and that free speech is not one of those.  I propose
to define "rights", in order that we know what we are talking about, but 
first:

| You cannot yell anti-semitic slurs in a synagogue and I don't think that
| you should be able to advocate violence against women (2 Live Crew). 

Sure you can "yell anti-semitic slurs in a synagogue".  You may just 
end up getting your ass kicked, or being thrown out, or whatever.  There
is no constitutional protection for stupidity.

| I'm exercising my "right" to free speech and saying that that's got to go.

But you don't have any such right.  If we accept your claim that something
called offensive speech is unprotected by the 1st Amendment, then all I
have to do is say that your speech offends me, and your right is gone.

| I think warning labels would be practically ineffective, but not politically
| indefensible. I think you SHOULD have a right to decide what you're children
| listen to, and that warning labels are a way of helping you make that choice
| not making that choice for you (you can still buy it).

If the record companies want to put labels on their product, fine.  If I,
as a parent want to regulate what my child sees and hears, fine too.  I have 
the option of finding a copy of the material in question and previewing it.

If we assume that some "labelling body" comes into existence to put labels
on offensive albums, how is it to be decided what lyrics/images are offensive?
Is it the 7 words you can't say on television?  Is it any term that refers to 
homosexuals as other than "gay"?  Is it any term that refers to blacks as
other than "african americans"?  What happens when the group in question 
decides that they don't want to be referred to as "a" any longer, they 
want to be called "a-prime"?  The idea rapidly descends into absurdity.

| From whence come "rights"? A piece of paper written by aristocrats of the
| eighteenth century? That piece of paper says they come from God. Well, I
| haven't heard from Her/Him lately, so I think that my rights better come
| from somewhere else. Rights come from us. I have the right to do something
| because I do it. A right is earned, not given. If you abuse it, it can
| be revoked.

This paragraph reveals an extraordinary bit of "reasoning":
	a) Rights come from us. 
	b) I have the right to do something because I do it. 
	c) A right is earned, not given. 
	d) If you abuse it, it can be revoked.

In case b), how does it apply to yelling "fire" in a theatre?  How do you 
justify statement c) in light of b) ?  How do you justify d) in the light 
of a) and b) ?

| Jordan (ST702459@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU)

More to come:  What are Rights?  Why do we need them?  Read on MacDuff!
Regards,
Frank.
Newsgroups: rec.music.gdead