HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: stave@apollo.hp.com (Joel H. Stave)
Subject: Defense against tigers (was Re: Fighting against animals?)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 18:08:52 GMT
Reply-To: stave@apollo.hp.com
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Apollo Division - Chelmsford, MA

I forget where I got this...

  A Zen master was walking with a student in SE Asia.  In the
  distance, about 200 yards away, they saw a hungry tiger
  running toward them.  The student was frantic.

  "Master! Master!" he cried, "what will we do?  We'll be eaten!"

  "Not to worry" the master replied calmly, with one hand upraised.
  He then proceeded to put on his running-sandals, with a
  calmness matching the slow dignity of the ancient tea ceremony.

  "Master!  What are you doing?!?  You can't outrun a tiger!!"

  And thus spake the master :

  "I don't have to outrun the tiger.  I just have to outrun you."

Joel Stave
stave@apollo.hp.com
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: MLetort@massey.ac.nz (M. Letort)
Subject: ITF in Ecuador ???
Summary: ITF in Ecuador ???
Keywords: ITF in Ecuador ???
Organization: Massey University, Palmerston North, New Zealand
X-Reader: NETNEWS/PC Version 2c
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 02:52:24 GMT

I'am moving to live in Ecuador, and I would like to continue practicing
Tae Kwon do (international foundation or federation).  

I will be living in Quito.  Any replays will be most wellcomed.
From: sog@craycos.com (Steve Gombosi)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: The Meaning Behind Style Names
Date: 25 Jan 93 07:17:51 GMT
Organization: Cray Computer Corporation

In article <50040238@hpcupt1.cup.hp.com> rterry@hpcupt1.cup.hp.com (Ray Terry) writes:
>>"Kara" as currently written by most (but not all) karate systems means
>>"empty". "Te" means "hand". "Karate-do" means "Empty hand way". 
>>The current method of writing "karate" was first introduced by
>>Chomo Hanagi in 1904 and popularized by Gichin Funakoshi (the father
>>of Japanese karate) beginning in the 1920s.
>
>According to Funakoshi (as I recall from this autobio), he changed the Kara
>in Kara-Te from China to Empty.  Before Funakoshi, Kara-Te meant China Hand.

Funakoshi certainly *says* this, but unfortunately it's not true. There
is at least one published work from before his appearance in Japan which
uses the "Kara" == "empty" kanji in reference to the art
(_Karate_Soshu_Hen_, by the aforementioned Chomo Hanagi, published in 1904).
I believe that this book was the first published work on the art, but I'm
not sure.

Steve
From: esot@troi.cc.rochester.edu (Eric Sotnak)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Faith in teachers (was "Is chi/ ki real?")
Date: 26 Jan 93 16:55:52 GMT
Organization: University of Rochester - Rochester, New York

In <19930126.051325.787@almaden.ibm.com> dcthomas@.vnet.ibm.com (Dave Thomas) writes:

>If it is scientific proof that will lead your mind, then say goodbye
>to one of the central concepts of martial arts. When we study, we are
>guided by faith in our sensei and the art. As beginners, we must have
>faith, since most of it is way above our heads. Through commitment
>and lots of hard training, some of us will gain true understanding
>of some concepts. Ki is one of the more allusive ones. If you are
>thinking "come on, give me examples I can SEE! Things I can MEASURE!!"
>don't hold your breath. All I would say is "train harder, and have
>faith."

  By "faith" here, I think you mean "trust", no?  But trusting one's
teachers is by no means incompatible with wanting reasonable justification
in support of certain types of claims.  You may trust your teacher to
provide quality instruction, but if s/he tells you that s/he was kidnapped
by space-aliens, must you have faith that s/he is telling the truth about
this in order to continue to trust his/her ability to instruct you well? 
Most martial arts instructors are more-or-less ordinary folks in respect of
their knowledge of science and philosophy, so it is probably unreasonable to
expect them to have extraordinary knowledge of such matters.  Therefore,
when a MA teacher makes an ontological/metaphysical/scientific claim, it is
by no means unreasonable to question his/her justification for such a claim.
  Furthermore, it seems to me that faith or trust is one thing, and blind
faith or blind trust is another.  I trust my instructors because I have
extremely good evidence that they know what they're doing.  I wouldn't trust
most of my instructors, however, to pronounce authoritatively on things
which are outside their particular expertise.
  So if an instructor says to me "You need to learn to focus your
middle-goombah matrix", I am fully within my rights to ask what this
middle-goombah-matrix is, where it is, whether it's just an expedient
concept or whether I'm supposed to believe that it really exists, and if so,
what the evidence is for its existence.
  Having respect for and trust in one's teachers doesn't require uncritical
acceptance of everything s/he says.  On the contrary, it seems to me that
you owe it to your instructor to help him/her become a better teacher and a
better MAist by asking questions.

--
********************************************************************
Eric Sotnak                   |  One life.
esot@troi.cc.rochester.edu    |  One chance. 
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: stave@apollo.hp.com (Joel H. Stave)
Subject: Re: Fights and blackbelt confidence
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 23:00:17 GMT
Reply-To: stave@apollo.hp.com
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Apollo Division - Chelmsford, MA

In article <C19zr4.4xA@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>,
shulick@navajo.ucs.indiana.edu (Sam Hulick) writes:
|> This is why I make it a point to myself never to be "obtrusive" until
|> I'm at least a 3rd gup.  By obtrusive, I mean if someone says something

Why 3rd gup, especially?

|> While we're on the topic, I know blackbelts aren't invincible or
|> anything, but I think it's a confidence thing.  I know that, personally,
|> after I had gone through years of training and had become a blackbelt,
|> I'd feel pretty good about myself and sure as hell wouldn't hesitate to
|> talk back to someone who was giving me a hard time.  Now I'm just a

Why wait all that time?  Why not get a gun and a license to carry it?

|> white belt, and when someone starts hassling me, I remain unobtrusive
|> and just take it, which I don't really like doing.  This doesn't mean
|> that when I'm a blackbelt, and someone bugs me, I'd throw them across
|> the room.  As our instructor said, avoid a fight at all costs, but if
|> you have to fight, do what you must.  I don't think I'd be egging him
|> on, but if someone started making rude comments about my best friend,
|> I'm not going to sit there and not say anything (as I do now. me wimp!
|> :).  Any one else feel this way?

A suggestion: Show you instructor your post along with this and any
other replies you get. Ask him/her to be more specific about exaclty
what that "all costs" in "avoid a fight at all costs" means.

Joel Stave
stave@apollo.hp.com
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Fights and blackbelt confidence
Date: 26 Jan 1993 15:51:51 GMT
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: mickey.think.com

In article <C19zr4.4xA@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, shulick@navajo.ucs.indiana.edu (Sam Hulick) writes:

|> the room.  As our instructor said, avoid a fight at all costs, but if
|> you have to fight, do what you must.  I don't think I'd be egging him
|> on, but if someone started making rude comments about my best friend,
|> I'm not going to sit there and not say anything (as I do now. me wimp!
|> :).  Any one else feel this way?

I don't think you would have been accepted for instruction in
any of the dojos I have attended if this attitude had persisted
past the first month.


-- 
Shai Guday              | Stealth bombers,
OS Software Engineer    |
Thinking Machines Corp. |	the winged ninjas of the skies.
Cambridge, MA           |
From: jfrost@odaiko (SYSTEM 0PERATOR)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: test
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 93 20:36:42 PST
Organization: Big Drum Network

ignore this... it's just a test!

PACKET:         KC6NSE@KC6NZN.#SOCA.CA.NA
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Kung Fu (the TV show)
From: twcaps@tennyson.lbl.gov (Terry Chan)
Date: 19 Jan 1993 17:41:32 GMT
Organization: Department of Redundancy Department  

 
  +>2)What style does Carradine use?  (forgive the wording)  Shaolin?  Tai Chai?
  +>  Pa Kua?  Some other?  TV-fu?
Reply-To: TWChan@lbl.gov (Terry Chan)
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.12.117

What does it matter?  If it's anything like the old series, it's not
like you'll get any great insights into form or anything.
  
J.R.Wood@lut.ac.uk (Jonathan Wood) writes:
  +
  +        Don't know though I think it's Tai Chi, but he does have a couple of 
  +training/exercise videos out going for around 10 pounds each in England.

As _T'ai Chi_ magazine put it, he show a "non-traditional" form.  I
seem to recall somewhere before that Carradine studied Tai Mantis
with Kam Yuen (who also had a role on the old series, does he in the
new one?) later on.

Terry Chan 
--
Energy and Environment Division   | Internet:  TWChan@lbl.gov
Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory      | 
Berkeley, California  USA  94720  | Yeah, right.
From: gints@prophet.esd.sgi.com (Gints Klimanis)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Van Damme studies.....?
Date: 22 Jan 93 23:09:03 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: prophet.esd.sgi.com

In article <1993Jan22.203648.14358@wisdom.bubble.org>,
bleys@wisdom.bubble.org (Bill Cavanaugh) writes:
|> In article <C15GMy.6qL@eis.calstate.edu> jlockha@eis.calstate.edu
|> (Jame A Lockhart) writes:
|> >bleys@wisdom.bubble.org (Bill Cavanaugh) writes:
|> >> In article <C13B6G.2A1@eis.calstate.edu> jlockha@eis.calstate.edu
|> (Jame A Lockhart) writes:
|> >> >
|> >> >Shinanju...spelling may be off.  There are styles with pressure
|> points,
|> >> >but most of the books (as well as the movie) was pure fiction. 
|> The guy
|> >> >who played the 'master' was not even Asian.
|> >> 
|> >> Sinanju...  The books are very silly, and alot of fun.  The guy
|> who played
|> >> Chiun in the movie was Joel Grey, better known as the MC in
|> Cabaret, or as
|> >> Erin "Dirty Dancing" Grey's dad.  I think they picked him because
|> Chiun's
|> >  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> >Are you sure this is the same guy?
|> >
|>  
|> Right guy, wrong first name for the daughter.  I think I needed sleep
|> badly
|> when I posted....  Her name is Jennifer Grey.  I don't even know if
|> there
|> >is< an Erin Grey...  Shimata.

(I can't believe I'm still reading this thread ...)

I recall an Erin Grey (quite a hot number) who co-starred in the TV
series "Buck Rogers" and adorned Bloomingdales? or Macy's products on TV
ads.
From: twcaps@tennyson.lbl.gov (Terry Chan)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Fighting against animals?
Date: 25 Jan 1993 23:19:52 GMT
Organization: Department of Redundancy Department
Reply-To: TWChan@lbl.gov (Terry Chan)
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.12.117

shulick@cineret.ucs.indiana.edu writes:
  +
  +Basically, the only animal that we (humans) would most likely be
  +attacked by is a large dog.  And from experience, they sometimes like to
  +run and then leap at you.  Umm, how should I phrase this?  Are there any
  +books, or any info... or even an ART that teach how to defend against
  +animals?    [rest deleted]

Here we go!  Dog Kun Do, where are you?  [Not to mention "Son of
Dog Kun Do.]  Stephen (Northcutt), anything from the Greenoch
archives?

Terry Chan
--
Energy and Environment Division   | Internet:  TWChan@lbl.gov
Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory      | 
Berkeley, California  USA  94720  | Yeah, right.
From: mgwg_ltd@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (TechnoKnight)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Boston Internal MA School
Keywords: Dr. Jwaming Yang (sp?), Internal MA school, Boston
Date: 27 Jan 93 17:56:56 GMT
Organization: University of Rochester (Rochester, NY)


Hello all,

	I have a question about Dr. Jwaming Yang (sp?).  He has an
internal MA school at Boston.  He wrote several books (ie. Sholin
China, Tai Chi Yang Style, Chi Kung, and etc) and sumbits articles
to an internal Kung Fu magazine.  From his books, he seems to know
what he is doing.  Is he really that good?  Is there anyone out there
that knows and has experienced with the person (seen him in action?).
Will it be worth $210 to fly down spring break and visit his school?


			Sincerely,


			Ming-the everlearning warrior
			"Point at the flame and
			put it out with your mind.."

			"Yeah, right..."
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: simutis@Ingres.COM (John Simutis)
Subject: Re: I don't know.
Reply-To: simutis@Ingres.COM (John Simutis)
Organization: Ingres Division, ASK Computer Systems.
Date: 27 Jan 93 16:39:42 GMT

In article <1993Jan27.001434.4463@craycos.com>, sog@craycos.com (Steve Gombosi) writes:
>In article <1k3pdpINNb0t@master.cs.rose-hulman.edu> acharya@HYDRA.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU writes:
>>dsmythe@netcom.com (Dave Smythe):
>>
>>Did anyone happen to save a summary of one of the last few flamewars on
>>this topic?  Holy mackerel!  Let's not flounder into this one again.
>>Ignoring it would be the bass option.  I'll resume my perch, now...
>>
>>	just when you thought it safe to go back into the water, 
>>	crabby dave decides to poisson it....
>>	
>>	i shouldn't have posted this, but i do like to balance the scales...
>
>It just gills me the way some folks will try to skate by, posting stuff
>like this to the grouper. No a manta friendly advice will get them to stop
>snapper-ing at the opportunity or change their tuna. Salmon-fortunate newbie
>will read this and eel think that we can't deal with moray serious
>topics.  I thank Cod we don't do this very often...
>
>Steve

We should always have a serious porpoise in posting, and not do it
just for the halibut.

John
From: ian@csc.liv.ac.uk (Ian Finch)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: hapkido question
Date: 22 Jan 93 16:07:08 GMT
Organization: Knee Deep in Sky High
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]

J. Andrew Groome (groome@ncc1701d.lab) wrote:
>
> This discussion came up last week in our hapkido class.  A third dan at our
> school studied jujitsu for years before starting hapkido.  He says that the
> main difference that he can see between the arts is that throws in jujitsu use
> more leverage where hapkido relies more on using your opponents momentum.  He
> also mentioned that we tend to do more finishing techniques after a throw in
> hapkido, where in jujitsu the throw  is the finishing technique ;-).  I'm sure
> this opinion varies between teachers and doj*s.  
>
I think this depends on the flavour of the ju-jitsu, the teacher and the
student.  Most of the throws I have learned in ju-jitsu use momentum, obviously
some more than others.  If I can keep the momentum of someone's punch going,
that is what puts the power into my throw.  In training, I would much rather
someone put effort into throwing a punch at me since it makes it easier for
me to throw them.  There are also throws which use leverage (for example
throws using locks), but in many cases it is much easier to perform these
techniques if momentum is also used.

As for finishing techniques, it is stressed that we should always do a finish
after a throw, either a lock or strikes.  This is ingrained into me so much,
that when I went to judo a few times I had to concentrate not to put finishes
in.

For the record, my style of ju-jitsu is that of the British Ju-Jitsu
Association.

Just another data point,
                              Ian
--
 //                             //
 // ian@compsci.liverpool.ac.uk //
 //                             //
From: azw@aber.ac.uk (Andrew Michael Woodward)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Fights and blackbelt confidence
Date: 26 Jan 93 18:26:23 GMT
Organization: University of Wales, Aberystwyth

>Master Funakoshi said in one of his books: "When two tigers fight, one
>is certain to be maimed, and one to die."  Sometimes it's worth it and

Spot on. Fights very often (usually) have no winners, just two losers of
varying degrees of loss. This is maybe the most important lesson that can be
learned in any combat discipline. (Definition of a combat discipline:- 
Training that disciplines you to avoid combat?)
From: garry@alice.att.com (garry hodgson)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: difference between quarterstaff and jo?
Date: 21 Jan 93 22:04:39 GMT
Article-I.D.: alice.24675
Reply-To: garry@alice.UUCP ()
Distribution: world
Organization: AT&T, Bell Labs

Erik Dyrelius writes:
   stave@apollo.hp.com (Joel H. Stave) writes:

   >A quarterstaff is typically about 6 feet long whereas a jo is
   >about 4.5 feet long.  The bo, however is about the same size as
   >a quarterstaff.
 
   I just measures my jo and it is only 50"=4.2 feet. I think (if I remember
   correctly) that the idea was that it should be a bit longer than the
   katana which it was designed to be used against and since a bokto (bokken)
   is about 40" that fits. (I havent got a katana to compare with)


I vaguely recall reading that the length of the jo should be such that
it comfortably fits under your armpit while standing.  I'm not familiar
enough with jo technique (my staff training is with bo) to know whether
there are technical reasons for this length.  I do note, however,
that this length would allow it to be used as an impromptu crutch
after a particlarly grueling workout :-)

-- 
Garry Hodgson			A slow winter day
AT&T Bell Labs			A night like forever
garry@alice.att.com		Sink like a stone
att!alice!garry			Float like a feather
From: joshg@athena.mit.edu (Josh Gagliardi)
Subject: Is chi/ki real?
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 19:34:47 GMT

As a beginning (one year) Aikidoist and an engineer, ki is a troubling concept:
here are the two definitions I switch between depending on mood:
1) Ki is what I feel (albeit rarely) during the balanced and extended execution
  of certain techniques on the mat
2) (More cynical)  The concept if ki creates a desirable effect in the 
musculature of a martial artist who is holding the concept in mind.  Much the
way in any other activities one is told to "Think of x" while learning becuase
by picturing x correct form is achieved through association.

We lowly beginners can only trust the masters who tell us to learn ki
extension.

--Josh Gagliardi (joshg@athena.mit.edu)

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X)
Subject: Re: Books, was Re: No-Mind
Organization: Twilight Zone
Distribution: usa
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 19:09:00 GMT

In article <1jpeerINNlc8@morrow.stanford.edu> CA.FER@forsythe.stanford.edu (Jennifer Gates) writes:
>>>
>>        ...but I find it almost impossible to believe that this is a true
>>        autobiographical account or that his ideas were not cannibalized from
>>        other sources.  But who knows, maybe it is and maybe they are.  The
>>        point is irrelevant when speaking to the merits of the ideas per se.
>>
>Just a note... I've met Dan Millman and trained with him a little.
>He does not claim that the things that happen in his books are
>"true", he says that some of them happended and some didn't. 

	You are right.  I had forgotten that he does indeed say exactly
	this in WPW.  I stand... uh...gee, what do I stand as?  Corrected?
	Reminded?  Well, I stand as *something*...  errg.

	-Mr. Amnesiac
From: robinson@cogsci.Berkeley.EDU (Michael Robinson)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Wing Chun Trapping & Boxing & Do's & Jutsu's
Date: 25 Jan 1993 07:24:16 GMT
Organization: Institute of Cognitive Studies, U.C. Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: cogsci.berkeley.edu

In article <POPOVICH.93Jan24155055@morningside.cs.columbia.edu> popovich@cs.columbia.edu (Steve Popovich) writes:
>What is this?  Flame bait :-)?  You're not trying to say that [etc...]
>You'll get flames aplenty on this newsgroup if that's so...

The sad part is this is probably true.

Time was, though, it was just about impossible to get "flames aplenty".

Ok, so maybe it wasn't all Scott Workinger's fault, but if you know what
I'm talking about, you know what I'm talking about.


-- 
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Michael Robinson                          UUCP:   ucbvax!cogsci!robinson
                                        INTERNET: robinson@cogsci.berkeley.edu
From: battech@csa.bu.edu (Joel Avni)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Kenjutsu dojo in Boston?
Date: 26 Jan 93 05:40:26 GMT
Distribution: ne
Organization: Computer Science Department, Boston University, Boston, MA, USA
Originator: battech@csa

Anyone know of a kenjutsu dojo in the Boston area?
From: actize@garnet.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Defense against Kicks for Non-Kickers
Date: 27 Jan 1993 02:28:14 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Distribution: ba
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

IMHO, I can help you on this subject.  You may have a problem working these 
techniques into a formal setting.  I have observed only 2 different kicks used 
by street-fighters untrained in MA.  1. the standard front kick- except this 
kick does not elevate the knee & extend the leg.  The leg remains stiff with a 
heavy shoe, and is swung up to groin level.  2. the flying front kick- big 
running start, kicking with sole of foot.  Those are the only kicks I've ever 
scene that were effective.
From: azw@aber.ac.uk (Andrew Michael Woodward)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Is chi/ ki real?
Date: 26 Jan 93 15:50:26 GMT
Organization: University of Wales, Aberystwyth

>
>Ki is in your mind.  Is your mind real?
>
Christ, I hope not - what a depressing thought.
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: nlund@kodak.com
Subject: Re: THE MEANING BEHIND ST
Originator: lund@viper
Organization: no need, short enough.
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 02:05:56 GMT

In article <7550.897.uupcb@meaddata.com>
             jo.lavoy%theweb@meaddata.com (Jo Lavoy)  writes:

>HapSool ryu ninjutsu?  What?  There's no such thing.  [...]

Exactly.  The seven thousand year old clay figures found in Japan
cannot be linked to any existing Ryu, and I have not heard anyone
try.  Sorry for the confusion caused by the fictious name.

nlund@kodak.com
From: birmingh@fnalo.fnal.gov (Phillip J. Birmingham)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Greenoch History
Date: 26 Jan 93 04:53:07 GMT
Organization: Deep Thirteen
NNTP-Posting-Host: fnalo.fnal.gov

In article <1993Jan26.001502.3882@craycos.com>, sog@craycos.com (Steve Gombosi) writes:
> In article <C1Dy8M.3Mr@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> shulick@cineret.ucs.indiana.edu (Sam Hulick) writes:
>>
>>Seriously.. what *IS* Greenoch?
>>
> 
> Seriously, Greenoch is the second-best martial art in the whole, damned
> world...

         Uhh, what's the first? Meik-do?

-- 
 Phillip J. Birmingham   birmingh@fnal.fnal.gov  
 I don't speak for Fermilab, although my mouth is probably big enough...
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: stave@apollo.hp.com (Joel H. Stave)
Subject: Re: Techniques - important or not?
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 22:54:34 GMT
Reply-To: stave@apollo.hp.com
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Apollo Division - Chelmsford, MA

In article <gfNzL_n0Bwx20yKS0A@transarc.com>,
Stephen_Y._Chan@transarc.com writes:
|> tk@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Tommy Kelly) writes:
|> > Another example - before I give my attempt at an explanation.
|> > In the Tai Chi short form it seems that one must keep the tip of the
|> > tongue pressed against the roof of the mouth during the whole form.  This
|> > is because the tongue is seen as a vital link in chi flow.

Interesting.  A number of my instructors have told us about the
"tongue on the roof of the mouth" trick as a way to get out of the
habit of sticking ones tongue out while concentrating.  (a Bad
Thing to do while sparring <*smack*> "oucth!")

Joel Stave
stave@apollo.hp.com
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts