From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Jews For Germans
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 17:10:36 GMT

In article <1993Jan9.132535.1@vxdesy.desy.de> godfrey@vxdesy.desy.de writes:
>In article <1993Jan9.025146.4294@Princeton.EDU>, roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:
>> You *still* haven't figured out that the virtual genocide you dream of
>> would not have reflected well on the rest of the world.  In fact, you 
>> don't seem to understand that the rise of Hitler was made possible by 
>> punitive measures after WW I that had some resemblance to the things 
>> you said should ahve been done after WW II.  

>I never suggested anything of the sort - I simply said that Germany should
>have ceased to exist - the people would have been absorbed into other
>neighbouring countries or stayed where they were but become French, Russian,
>Polish, Czech etc.

Not so.  Last month you proposed dividing the country into tiny units (you
know, the patchwork that led to German Nationalism...) with offensive
names.  Sorry, but some of us don't forget your idiocies that fast.

>> Now, just what should have been done instead of the recent unification?
>> Perhaps the E. Germans should have been left to their own devices, to
>> form a fascist government without the guidance of the West.  Yeah, that's
>> the ticket.  

>Given that Germany was allowed to continue after WW2, it would have been better
>if East Germany had been formally made a part of what was the USSR, and today

Part of it was, in fact.    

>it would presumably be a separate state.  

In the case of East Prussia, this is not so.  But what are you saying?
That the murderer Stalin should have been able to continue Hitler's 
work?  That a huge Soviet enclave *west* of Poland would have been
good for the security of the West?  

Of course, E. Germany *was* practically what you describe -- a Stalinist
state that followed the Moscow line, and was filled with Soviet troops.
Yet it remained German, and the repression over four decades is a prime
cause of the unrest that exists there now.  Wihtout unification it would
probably be worse, because there would be no mechanism for bringing the 
ex-Stasi under control.  They would be running the country like a Mafia.
Still seem like a good idea?

>None of the states in the former USSR are fascist today, as far as I know, 

Not at the moment.  

>but I agree that they are hardly
>democracies either, which means they are no worse than most countries in
>today's world.

Yet E. Germany *is* a democracy.  Part of the Federal republic.  With
unrest far less than in Romania, Hungary (explicit anti-Semitic groups
with genocide on their minds), and the Caucasian republics, which are
busily conducting civil wars.  Czechoslovakia just broke up into two
countries, things were so good.

>> Now, as long as you refer to "what [the Germans] see as their superiority"
>> and inevitable future events, how about telling us how you know this --
>> it's mostly horseshit -- and why you single out the Germans when so many
>> other countries are busy performing atrocities at this very moment.

>I lived there for two years from 1990 - 92.  Is that okay?  The fact that other

No.  Lots of people have lived there for longer periods -- me, for instance --
and have not come away with your prejudices and hateful spew.

>countries perform atrocities does not excuse the Germans theirs, and I do

Yet you can't point to more than a tiny handful of hate crimes in Germany,
compared to what's going on elsewhere, and you blind yourself to the 
enormous outcry and opposition to these crimes.  You have not even once 
mentioned the mass popular movements AGAINST the hate crimes and right-wing
violence.  Have you ever seen such a demonstration in, say, Oregon or
Jersey City, which have hate crimes like that too?

>not single out the Germans at all - 

Utter bullshit.  You've never spoken of anyone but, and you speak of 
supposed German superiority, wishes to conquer, etc.  

>it is just that this posting concerned the Germans.  

Every posting I have seen of yours has concerned the Germans, and has
been the same kind of bigoted trash.

>It is disingeuous to argue that I must be wrong in my accusations
>because the same thing goes on elswhere, 

Nobody argues that.  We argue that you are wrong because you propose
remedies close to genocide, because you ignore most of what's going
on in the Federal Republic, because what you say is mainly prejudice
and paranoia, and because you generally have no grasp whatever of 
the simple facts of the matter.

>or to argue that because there are 
>significant numbers of good Germans that the rest cannot be bad.

Again, a straw man.  Also inhuman, because -- certainly in countries
like ours, we don't speak of people as bad unless we can point to
bad things that they have done or said.  Since you clearly don't 
know "the rest" -- I bet you never got to know more than a tiny number of
Germans in one or two places in Germany -- you have no basis for calling
them bad, or even presuming that they are.  

As to the same thing going on elsewhere, that DOES demonstrate that the
violence you describe is not a uniquely German problem, and that your
attribution of Germanness as its cause is therefore baseless.

Roger
Xref: sparky soc.culture.jewish:25089 soc.culture.german:9767