From: pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia
Subject: Re: Croatian dreams
Date: 27 Dec 92 08:13:55 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

blazic@ecf.toronto.edu (BLAZIC Joseph R) writes:

>In article <Dec.26.01.58.31.1992.10266@andromeda.rutgers.edu> pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane) writes:
>>Could you please explain to me how the Federal government was
>>Serbian lead? Could you post the names of the members of the
>>Presidium at that time (1990), and names of all the federal
>>ministers, (executive branch) as well as the names of the three 
>>to five top military commanders?

>If you want to get to the heart of the matter, you should get past 
>the top five military commanders (a very visible lot that had to
>be representative of the population) to the slews of lower ranking
>officers in the army.

And still the lower ranking officers, by definition, had to obey
the higher ranking ones... I think you (all of you) mix two meanings
of the word "dominate", a quantitative meaning (numbers) and the
meaning "have power". 

On the other hand, who knows, maybe the Yugoslav army was the only
Yugoslav structure where the power was really in the hands of the "workers"
(meaning the lowest ranking had a power over the highest ranking -
a thoroughly "communist" idea) (Just  a joke).

The other question, the more important one is the question of the
alledged "Serbian" dominance over other nations in Yugoslavia. It has
not been answered with facts yet.


>As well, when was it that Serbia annexed Kosovo and Vojvodina?

Without any attempts to defend the Serbian regime, and especially
the situation in Kosovo, I must point to several facts. First,
Serbia did not annex Kosovo and Vojvodina, just taken their
autonomy away. Kosovo and Vojvodina were not autonomous regions
within Yugoslavia, but within Serbia. The representatives of
Kosovo and Vojvodina were as much the integral part of the Serbian
government as the representatives from other Serbian regions.
Moreover, these regions had representatives in the Federal
Government, as well. Above all, the situation before 1987
was politically contradictory: while the rrepresentatives
from Kosovo and Vojvodina (as autonomous regions) had a pover
ov veto in the Serbian government. But the representatives
from other regions of Serbia didn't have such power. With
the antagonisms between leaders of Serbia and the Kosovo
leaders, the government of Serbia was, in fact an impossible
government. The Kosovo representatives could block any 
decision of the Serbian government, while at the same time
nobody could block decisions of the leaders in Kosovo.
(Or Vojvodina).

This was just the political - so to speak - structural -
makeup of the situation in Serbia (including the autonomous
regions) before 1987. That much dominance did the Serbian
leadership have.

Using such an political anomaly, the leadership of Kosovo
had deliberately (Don't ask me why) antagonized Albanian
and Serbian nationalities in Kosovo. Albanian nation in
Kosovo had not just rights of a minority, they had a room
and political freedom to fully develop within Yugoslavia.
In fact, more freedom as people than in Albania. And many have
fled Albania and had come to Kosovo, where they had enjoyed full
protection as refugees, and much more.

The whole Yugoslavia payed special taxes for the development of the
Kosovo region, including Serbia.

I really don't know why did the Kosovo leadership before 1987
over years and years embezzled the money, kept the whole
region and its peoples in the utter poverty  and used the
anti-Yugoslav (and anti-Serbian) curricula imported from
Enver Hodxa's Albania to educate Albanians into the hatred.

I won't even speak of the 50 year long "ethnic cleansing"
of the Serbian population from Kosovo. 

It is true that today's regime in Kosovo is unjust and opressive.
But it is also true that the Albanian leaders have "worked" very
hard to make the situation as bad as can be, since that, and only
that can bring about the situation they want: uniting with Albania.
But they care about Albanian people as much as some chess player
"cares" about a figure.

This all, I repeat again, does not mean that:

1. I agree with the Serbian leadership (or have agreed before), since
they didn't know anything better than to use naked power which never
solves the problems.

2. I blame Albanian people - just the ones in power.


>>Could you also quote this percentage? (of the Serbian policemen)?
>>Also, if they were equal citizens in Croatia, why not be in the
>>police force? The Serbian population in Croatia was about 12%.
>>How could they have been in the majority, or extremely large percentage
>>in the police force? 

>What kind of a logic is this?

>[Josip Loncaric writes]
>>>   On the other hand, these same reasons explain why Serbian
>>>leadership pushed for war as hard as it did: Lets destroy Croatia
>>>before it can become a threat. 
>>
>>A threat to whom? A threat to what? 

>With a good half of Croatian infrastructure destroyed, and most of
>Bosnia-Hercegovina going that way too, after the war Serbia will
>(physically) be the strongest nation in the Balkans.

I still don't understand in what way would Croatia and Bosnia and
Herzegovina be a threat to Serbia (rump Yugoslavia). And, even more,
what does THAT have to do with ethnic hatred? Especially in the case
of Bosnia & Herzegovina. They are there destroying their own infrastructure!
The economy of Serbia was far more destroyed before the war (1990),
already, than the economies of Croatia and Slovenia. Maybe that IS
the true reason for this war? Economic, not national.

>>As you must remember, the war in Croatia was "frozen" by the
>>UNPROFOR troops. And as you also must remember, the disputed areas
>>are just the ones where the Serbian population lives (Krajina).

>Really?  So you support "Krajina/Serbia is where ever a Serb stands
>or is buried"?

No, Joe, I didn't say, and certainly didn't support this. I think,
if you ask me, that all Serbs, Croats, Muslims, Albanians, and other
victimized peoples in this war should UNITE against the despots and
ruthless rulers who preach hatred to score more power themselves, and
resist the war. TOGETHER, if they ever want to see a glimpse of
true freedom and life without fear. 

Yugoslavia was not a just country before WWII, it was not a just country
during the communist rule, but the wrong conclusion that everyone
seems to have come to is that the small national countries will
be just. No they will be worse. And it is not impossible for
our peoples to live together without hatred, that is the propaganda
of those who wish to devide and rule. There is nothing in the genes
of Balkan peoples, as you have pointed out elswhere, that makes
us more savage than anyone else or more prone to hate. This what
is going on now is the product of vicious individuals and the ruling class,
not of peoples in Yugoslavia.

>>No war is just! No conflicts can be really settled by war. One day
>>it will all have to be negotiated at the table, unless there is
>>perpetual war. So why not stop now and negotiate and drop the
>>hatred toward nations, just punish the actual criminals (on all sides)
>>for the actual deeds against humanity.

>Because war is a bargaining chip, and when everyone sits down at the
>table Serbia still holds most of the chips because it holds most of
>the military power.  This is "just the war it is", not the way Joe
>Blazic designed the world, so don't blame or flame me.

I don't blame you, Joe Blazic. But whe you say "Serbia", that means
"some who are in power in Serbia". There are many more Serbians
who don't hold any chips and will not see anything better in their
lives. And even though I don't like gloating over the miserable
future of the peoples in Serbia, I have to agree that nothing good
and a lot more horrors await the people there.


>Regards,

>Joe Blazic


Sorry, if I offended you. 

Regards to you and let's work for

        __________  __________   _______          _________   __________
       /   ___   / /  _______/  /   __  |        /  ____  /  /  _______/
      /   /  /  / /  /         /   /  | |       /  /   /_/  /  /
     /   /__/  / /  /___      /   /___| |      /  /        /  /___
    /   ______/ /   ___/     /   _____  |     /  /        /   ___/
   /   /       /   /        /   /     | |    /  /    __  /   /
  /   /       /   /_____   /   /      | |   /  /____/ / /   /_____
 /___/       /_________/  /___/       |_|  /_________/ /_________/

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Ana M. Shane                               pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.rights.human