HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cuz@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu (Cousin It)
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 9 Nov 92 22:29:55 GMT
Organization: The Monkee Farm

dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:
|stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley) writes:
|>News.groups is hardly an elite clique. Joining it for a few weeks is
|>hardly going to kill anyone. And anyone who can't be bothered to join
|>news.groups for the short time required to talk about a group certainly
|>hasn't demonstrated much interest in it. 

|I don't know about that one. I see 119 messages about this topic alone.
|I've only been gone since Friday Night. Most net people (especially those
|using RN) see this and unsubscribe instantly. 

	Then, again, this is a case of willful ignorance. I have no
pity.

|This is an elitist, condescending, and unwelcoming attitude to take to
|a source of human communication who's readership has doubled over the
|past year. There's about a million readers out there who think RFD
|is the name of an old TV show with Andy Griffith. What about them?

	Then, they need education. Nothing more, nothing less.
However, this is not the point. The point is, these people did not
vote. Whether this was thru willful ignorance, or non-willful
ignorance, we can't take these people into account after the fact. 

|>The "cadre" of people is hardly elite and has no membership requirements
|>other than the willingness to spend the time. 

|Really? Tell that to Alok, or KPD. I'm sure there are others...I've watched
|you guys for years! If the person making the noise were someone "more
|respected" than me, you can bet that it wouldn't go through. 

	Please. We are not elitist. We hold the guidelines very highly
though. And we have no pity for ignorance. But, anyone can join into
this "clique", and thus we can't be considered elitist.

|>If they make the wrong decision, then they are the only ones who are
|>responsible for the results.

|Hardly. They can't be ignorant and not run the risk of having their group 
|named out for under them. Even further, those on BBSes haven't even a say so.
|How fair is that?

	People on usenet will still have the group with a brand
spanking new name. The BBSs are not part of usenet, and thus should
not have a voice. If the gateway maintainers are on the ball, then
they're won't be a problem. THIS name change does nothing other than
change the name. That is it. This vote did nothing else. This is a
silly issue to fight over.

  Cousin It                                     cuz@cs.brandeis.edu
        "To build or destroy, only you decide what joy"
                  -Last Crack "Energy Mind"-
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.folklore.computers,alt.folklore.urban
From: PAPAI@kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu (Jonathan Papai)
Subject: Re: leave alt.folklore.computers alone, rmgroup comp.society.folklore
Organization: The Ohio State University
 <1992Nov7.021144.18842@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 03:03:04 GMT

In article <1992Nov3.165217.13246@lth.se>
bengtl@maths.lth.se (Bengt Larsson) writes:
>
>How about
>
>alt.folklore.computers ->	misc.folklore.computers
>alt.folklore.science ->		misc.folklore.science
>
>comp.society.folklore -> 	(delete)
>
>alt.folklore.urban ->		soc.folklore.urban
>alt.folklore.college ->		soc.folklore.college
>alt.folklore.ghost-stories ->	soc.folklore.ghost-stories

	SFU just doesn't have the same ring as AFU.  Hell,
were just getting the people in sci.materials finding
out what AFU means.  Go ahead and have a vote to rename
any of the above groups.  I predict a landslide against.

ObUL  Suggesting changes in the name of alt.folklore.urban
is a good way to bring the imminent collapse of the net.


Jon "Didn't we discuss this a few months ago?" Papai
From: dave@frackit.UUCP (Dave Ratcliffe)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: soc.religion.islam.ahmadiyya Moderated
Summary: Not a valid argument
Date: 4 Nov 92 22:18:08 GMT
Organization: Data Factory Services, Harrisburg, Pa.


 In article <1992Nov1.163324.7387@ee.eng.ohio-state.edu>, rached@sample.eng.ohio-state.edu (Rached Zantout) writes:
  > In our site, recently, a new newsgroup appeared:
 >                      
 >                            alt.sect.Ahmadiyya
 > 
 > this newsgroup is not moderated.
 > Until now I have seen VERY light traffic on that newsgroup. Basically, the Welcome
 > message posting and reposting takes up more than half of the messages that were 
 > posted to the newsgroup. Most of the other articles that were posted were flames 
 > and counter flames.
 
 > In my opinion, this prooves that the traffic for the proposed SRI.ahmadiyya will
 > be less since it is moderated and most probably all the flames will not pass the
 > guidlines of moderation. 

Faulty argument. 

alt.* is not mainstream.  alt propogation is notoriously lousy.  Using
traffic levels in this group to predict the probable traffic in a
mainstream group is invalid. 

-- 
 ...uunet!wa3wbu!frackit!dave -or-                       |  Dave Ratcliffe  |
 frackit!dave@uunet.UU.NET -or- dave@frackit.uucp -or-   |  Sys. <*> Admin. |
 vogon1!compnect!frackit!dave@psuvax1.psu.edu            | Harrisburg,  Pa. |
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: Music Group Reorg Disagreement (was Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored)
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 05:27:08 GMT

jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
>>the rec.music.synth readership.  There seems to be a problem, so let's
>>have a revote to make sure everything is fair" ????
>>Is this such a bitter pill to swallow ??
>Yes. It would result in the destruction of the only process we have available
>to determine the wishes of the net. 

Imminent Death Of...oh to hell with it. <grin>
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

   There is no greater calamity for a nation or individual
                 than not finding contentment in one's sufficiency.
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth
From: judy@vicorp.com (Judy Hawkins)
Subject: Re: rec.music.makers.*: chronology and comments from the vote-taker.
Keywords: music, makers, guitar, bass, drums, synth, tablature
Organization: V. I. Corporation, Northampton, Massachusetts
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 00:06:42 GMT


When I first started reading the discussion (ahem) about the name change of
rec.music.synth, it sounded to me like the name change would cause a
significant change in the quality of r.m.*.synth.

Are we losing input from lists such as SYNTH-L?  I don't understand how
such lists work, does rec.music.synth just go out to the list, or do
readers of the list appear on rec.music.synth; do such readers lose
access, either reading or posting, by this name change?

My understanding at the moment is that the name change causes problems if
gateway and list maintainers cannot, for whatever reason, honor the name
change.  Is my understanding correct?

Is it an insurmountable task for some gateways/list maintainers to change the
name?  Or if it is difficult for some, can somone else come to their aid?

Surely the actual spelling of the name of the group carries no more weight
than the insults and personal slurs being bandied around, it's the content
that we care about.
 
Answers and explanations warmly accepted.

--
Judy Hawkins           So wrap up care in a cobweb/ and drop it down the well
judy@vicorp.com        into that world inverted/ where left is always right
uunet!vicorp!judy                                         -- Elizabeth Bishop
Xref: sparky news.groups:20812 rec.music.synth:18059 news.admin:8402
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth,news.admin
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 9 Nov 1992 15:34:01 GMT
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

In article <1992Nov9.120830.28935@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>I have some people on my BBS who tour, and do not have a laptop and/or the
>phone time to access my BBS daily. So when they come to my BBS, they expect
>to see "rec.music.synth" sitting there waiting for them when they are 
>at home changing their rigs or reconfiguring for the next tour. They don't
>really care about newgroup wars or CFV's...but they do care about synths
>and midi equipment. 

Nope. They're coming to your BBS, expecting to see the messages in
rec.music.synth sitting there waiting for them. They don't give a fuzzy rat's
ass whether it's called "rec.music.synth", "rec.music.makers.synth", or
"rec.sloppy.green.ideas.sleeping.furiously".

>IF this were to go through, they'd think it disappeared. Not knowing that
>this is USENET, they'd probably think that no one wanted to talk about
>synth/midi equipment any more.

Only if you (or whoever maintains your gateway) continue to be obstinate and
refuse to make the trivial changes needed to change the name of the group on
the Usenet side of the gateway (or take me up on my offer to help fix the
broken software). If the gateway maintainer does his job, then they never
notice, as the traffic continues as before.
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by stupidity.
     We survived Jimmy Carter; we'll (probably) survive Bill Clinton.
From: dirk@cs.kuleuven.ac.be (Dirk Craeynest)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: news.announce.conferences silence
Summary: Also in Belgium
Date: 9 Nov 92 08:25:45 GMT
Organization: Dept. Computerwetenschappen K.U.Leuven

In article <1992Nov1.223742.26510@utwente.nl> sabih@nt.el.utwente.nl
(Sabih H. Gerez) writes:
>The newsgroup news.announce.conferences has been silent for the last
>couple of weeks. Is this a worldwide silence or should I suspect a
>local problem?

I suspect a moderator problem...

On October 30, I submitted a Call for Participation to
  nac@tekbspa.tss.com (news.announce.conferences submissions)
but nothing was posted.

On November 4, I tried to contact the moderator
  denny@tekbspa.tss.com (Dennis Page)
but received no reply there either.

The last unexpired article we have in news.announce.conferences was
posted by the moderator on August 27.

What can we do to get news.announce.conferences going again?
(I wouldn't like to fake Approved: headers...)

Dirk Craeynest                    | domain: dirk@cs.kuleuven.ac.be
Ada-Belgium Newsletter editor     | uucp:   dirk@kulcs.uucp
Katholieke Universiteit Leuven    |         ...!mcsun!ub4b!kulcs!dirk
Department of Computer Science    | phone:  ++32(0)16-201015 x3555
Celestijnenlaan 200 A             | fax:    ++32(0)16-205308
B-3001 Leuven (Heverlee), Belgium | telex: 23674 kuleuv b
From: gary_preckshot@lccmail.ocf.llnl.gov (gary preckshot)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Dave Hayes will not quit
Date: 13 Nov 92 17:30:39 GMT
Organization: LLNL

In article <BxL9rH.M2y@unix.amherst.edu>, twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) writes:
> 

> 
> How's that metalworking group coming, Preckshot?
> 
About as well as can be expected, considering, Mr. Pierce.  It became obvious
that no useful purpose was served by continuing the "discussion".  Had I
been the only one to protest, I might well conclude that I was being
unreasonable.  However, there has not only been, in close succession, the
r.m.s controversy, but rsk writes

>Actually, there have been a number of controversies before this one; this
>is only the latest.

A person with a modicum of wit would conclude there are some problems.  Of
course, you might think that this is "the best of all possible worlds."
The original never learnt any different through tribulations that would try
a modern-day Bosnian.  Come to think of it, they were having trouble in
Sarajevo on June 28, 1914 and they still haven't learnt.  I guess that means
that in all fairness I can't compare you to Serbs and Croates for another
78 years.
From: quirk@pioneer.unm.edu (Gym Z. Quirk)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.frp.campaign
Date: 8 Nov 92 23:13:07 GMT
Organization: Nit-Pickers for a Better Tomorow Afternoon

In article <BxBFA9.A5K@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca () writes:
>In article <1d9sfnINN90v@charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu> tdunn@ecst.csuchico.edu (Tim Dunn) writes:
>>For me, you have failed to address a primary concern I brought up: who
>>are you?  How long have you read the hierarchy?  How many split-flame
>>fests have you seen?  If you are inexperienced in Usenet (Fidonet is
>>completely immaterial in this matter) I would suggest you not continue
>>with this doom-ridden and ill-conceived proposal.
>
>I'm sorry, I assumed that whether or not a group was passed was totally
>unrelated to whether or not the person proposing it had net experience.
>I thought the merit of the group was the deciding factor.

To parapharase Spaf:

"If you want a new newsgroup created, spend some time (preferably six
months) reading news.groups to get to know the dynamics and 'unwritten
rules' of the newsgroup creation process.  If you can't wait that
long, wait 12 months instead."

>As for your reference to the group being "doom-ridden" and "ill-conceived",
>more people have sent me mail saying "yes this sounds like a good idea" than
>have sent me messages saying they did not like the idea.  Thank goodness, the
>decision as to whether or not a newgroup is made is decided by a vote and
>not by self appointed "net gods".

Don't fool yourself.  The *only* people who make the decision are the
news admins on each site.

>Can we get back to the issue now.  We are here to discuss a newsgroup, NOT
>to flame eachother and make charges of inexperience.

Ok.  You have yet to adequately prove to me that this group is a
significant improvement over r.g.frp.archives.  As others have pointed
out, rgf.archives seems to fit your needs superbly.


-- 
Capt. Gym Z. Quirk  (Known to some as Taki Kogoma)  quirk@pioneer.unm.edu
 I'll get a life when someone demonstrates that it would be superior to
                          what I have now...
From: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: CFV? What's a CFV??
Date: 13 Nov 92 21:38:35 GMT
Organization: GSP Whitewater Slalom Racing Team

In article <1992Nov13.205220.19709@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec) writes:
>>After over a decade of Usenet, I think it's become clear that there are
>>large numbers of people who will not pay attention to important information,
>>no matter how much effort is put into trying to get it into their hands.
>
>By who's standards is this stuff "Important"? Are you implying that 
>everyone's standards of importance are the same?

Sigh.  As I've patiently explained to you before, I never imply.  It's
a bad habit that leads to misunderstandings.  Please do me the courtesy
of allowing me to speak for myself instead of guessing what I might
mean, as in "Are you implying...?".

I think "important" is an entirely relative term: but, for example,
I consider the documents in news.announce.newusers of critical
importance to every Usenet user.  Other documents, such as
newsgroup-specific FAQ's, wax and wane in importance as users join
and leave newsgroups.  Still others, like the "American Pie"
posting that I've been sending out from time to time, are only
of trivial importance and are relatively inconsequential.

---Rsk
From: tdunn@ecst.csuchico.edu (Tim Dunn)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: This has nothing to do with .campaign
Date: 13 Nov 92 16:26:05 GMT
Organization: California State University, Chico
NNTP-Posting-Host: hairball.ecst.csuchico.edu

cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca () writes:
>E Wong writes:
>>    I am also a reader and contributor to cbnorman's Fidonet AD&D echo
>>... I largely skip over those messages on the Fidonet because I have 
>>little or no interest in those games. 
>You must also acknowledge though, Eliot, that the majority of readers of
>the FidoNet AD&D echo do not share your feelings in this matter.  

Please provide statistics, should you start talking about majorities
etc.  Your opinion is another matter, but a 'majority' is clearly 
defined as > 50%, and I am indeed interested if that is the case.

Moreover, I would like to know the weight of said statistic.  How many
people are involved?  Do not misdirect the question and give me a number
for total FidoNet readership, that is not the question.  What the number
of people involved in your AD&D Echo, and what percentage do not share
Mr. Wong's feelings in this matter?


-- 
Ogden's Law:
	The sooner you fall behind, the more time you have to catch
	up.
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 12 Nov 92 00:22:51 GMT
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft

In article <1992Nov10.214607.25956@daimi.aau.dk> rorschak@daimi.aau.dk  
(Jesper Lauridsen) writes:
> gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:
> 
> >> 
> >> "RFD". "CFV". Very clear.
> >> 
> >To some, not to others.
> 
> You only have to read a single RFD or CFV in your lifetime to learn
> what that means. 
> 
Is there a guideline which states that the acronyms are defined in the  
contents of the messages they contain? No there isn't. If these acronyms  
contain so much power, don't they deserve to be defined somewhere  
absolute? Like in the guidelines?

> >How about if you saw hundreds of ballots a week, for all 50 states?  
Would  
> >you take the time to read them all? And a lot of things that LOOKED  
like  
> >ballots were actually political commentary advertisements?
> 
> There only a handful of groups being proposed each week. And unless you
> read news.* you are only going to see one once in a while. And none of
> them are "political commentary advertisements" or whatever their 
> equvilant on Usenet are.
> 
So messages that say "Re: RFD ..." aren't commentary? They certainly  
aren't the proposals themselves. How many such messages have been posted  
this week that contain the acronym RFD in their subject?
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Intentional ignorance of newsgroup creation (was Re: *BAD*...)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 13:58:35 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen):
>In article <2B0003E2.32D3@tct.com> chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
>> [Participation] is open to anyone who knows how how to participate,
>> and that knowledge is readily available to even the greenest newbie
>> if he will but read news.announce.newusers.
>
>I've asked time and time again for someone to show explicitly where all  
>the information required is presented.

Oh, you want chapter and verse?  If you're not willing to go to the
trouble of reading for yourself, then why should I take the time to do
it for you?

In any case, the key bit of information in the guidelines is that
news.announce.newgroups is the place to find all proposals and votes.
So anyone interested in participating knows to read n.a.newgroups.

>It sure as hell isn't in the guidelines.

You expect maybe the guidelines to say, "Read the guidelines"?
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
                 just another elitist Usenet administrator
Xref: sparky news.groups:21421 news.admin.misc:323
From: lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble)
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.misc
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 12 Nov 92 20:48:26 GMT
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: None for me, thanks . . . I'm driving.

dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:

> I quote a post in this thread: 

Just out of curiousity -- who wrote that post?  Was it, as I suspect,
*you*?  (I'd be less likely to suspect that if you'd mentioned who wrote
it when you reposted it.)  

> "...the way the vote was conducted skewed the composition of the voting
> population, by making it more likely that readers of rec.music.makers
> would vote than would readers of rec.music.synth." 

That may well be true, but even if it is (and you can't prove that it is
any more than we can prove that it isn't), that doesn't change the fact
that there's nothing in the guidelines to suggest that such a "skewing"
should be taken as sufficient reason to conduct a revote.  I haven't seen
any evidence that anyone in a position of power is taking your demands for
a revote seriously, and like it or not, the people in power are the people
you have to convince.  That's why we have the voting procedure in the
first place.

If *really, honestly* see this renaming as a problem, you're going to have
to work within the existing system if you want to fix it.  It should be
quite clear by now that nobody is going to let you change the guidelines
retroactively.  In fact, after this flamewar, you'll be lucky if anyone
who's politically active on the net takes anything you say seriously for a
very long time.  Acknowledging the reality of the situation would be a
good step in the direction of getting your suggestions listened to again. 

--
Lazlo (lazlo@triton.unm.edu)
Newsgroups: news.groups