HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Rannou@info.polymtl.ca (Patrick Rannou)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd
Subject: Re: Lich & Demi-Lich...
Date: 7 Oct 92 06:07:50 GMT
	<1992Sep30.171416.1768@nntp.uoregon.edu>
	<1992Oct1.004344.15611@aio.jsc.nasa.gov>
Organization: Ecole Polytechnique de Montreal, Canada

In article <1992Sep30.134229.19463@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>, abistak@nyx.cs.du.edu (Andrew Bistak) writes:
> Our party consists of a Paladin(lev 9)/Bard(lev 10)/Fighter-Mage ( lev
> 7 7) and a thief unfortunately.   [Here's] the problem, does anyone know
> how to defeat a damn Lich?  Some stats/weaknesses would be nice.
> regards, Andrew


RUN!

In my campaign, spells have *4* components: Verbal, Somatic, Material, and
Thought. Some spells don't have one or more of the three first components.
ALL spells uses the fourth as "base" to shape themselves upon. The first
three components are "focuses" to better affect the fourth, to the point
that without them the fourth component is practically useless (tough higher
level mages, and even low level ones, have sometimes succeded at casting a
spell without it's VSM components. It's all a matter of will power
(int/wis), magic power (mage level), easy spell (spell level), not too much
restrictions (as few VSM "negated" components as possible and them being
not too important. We all agree a 1000 GP gem is more "vital" to a spell
than a crumble of bread), and a lot of luck.

Problem is, liches are very high level, have a lot of will power (must be
to have defied death like that!), and had ample time to refine their
spellcasting up to a point where components aren't needed anymore.

In my world, liches DON'T crop up under every tree. PCs know about ONE
liche in all the world, and never met it (and hope to never do). That lich
can cast most of it's spell without V or S or M component, sometimes
without all three, AND it has a good chance of STILL being able to cast
it's spells even if hit.

I've done this becuse in a battle simulation I did, the PC party (6 heroes
of level 9 with few but good magic items) trashed the lich (and associated
beast) easily. All they had to do was concentrate their attacks on the
lich, thus being sure that at least one attack hit each round. They got a
little lucky on the initiative, and after 5 rounds bye bye lich. The lich
didn't manage to cast a single spell...

But now, when you know that even if you pigstick it it will still have over
50% chancews of lightning bolting you, I tell you:  THAT'S mega-death.


--
/---------------------------\
| Patrick "Paradak" Rannou. |
| Rannou@info.polymtl.ca    |
\---------------------------/
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd
From: rooney@cheshire.oxy.edu (Michael Sean Rooney)
Subject: Re: Killing Liches with Staves of the Magi, HA!!!
Followup-To: rec.games.frp.dnd
Summary: I wouldn't be so sure
Keywords: powergamers, liches
Organization: Occidental College, Los Angeles, CA 90041 USA.
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 18:02:28 GMT

In article <1992Oct6.222117.24497@en.ecn.purdue.edu> mage@en.ecn.purdue.edu (Mage) writes:
>>In article <Qen9xn200Uh_051CEr@andrew.cmu.edu>, "Jordan M. Wolbrum" <jw67+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>>> What's all the commotion about a Lich?  It's just a monster, not even
>>> the most powerful undead!  Now a Type VI demon, that's a monster!  
>>> 
>>> If you really need to kill a lich, have your henchman break the Staff of
>>> the Magi near it.  It will never survive.
>>
>I have to say, I have seen some power-gamers, but you take the cake.
>I have seen more of the Power-Gamer attitude in the many years
>I have played the game than I sometimes can tend to bear, Most
>of the veteran gamers, especially those who enjoy the heroic 
>campaign and the saga, would agree most heartily with this
>letter.

	I have to disagree -- while powergaming or munchkining is
a limited form of rpging, I'm sure the powergamers have loads of fun,
and would find `the heroic campaign and saga' or intensive campaign
role-playing about as exciting as Gygax's random dungeon dressing
charts in the DMG1.  Different strokes.

	What really made me post is that Tony identifies this fellow 
as a powergamer.  Come on!  No powergamer worth his memorized Monster
Manual would ever say of a Type VI demon, "that's a monster!", let
alone rate it over a lich in power.  Any true powergamer would likely
already have a lich PC, or a wizard with that goal in mind ("Yeah!
Then I could stand at the center of my chain lightning!!").  At the
very least, the powergamer would know that the Type VI demon is a 
middling extraplanar with trifling innate abilities (certainly nothing
comparable to 9th level spells, of which the lich is likely to have
several) and what, a whopping 8+8 HD!!!  

	And wasting a staff of magi -- no powergamer would throw away
a multi-purpose item which can absorb spells, even if they were about  
die (why not use the staff to teleport away?).  

Minmaximally,

Michael S. Rooney
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 10:02:37 -0400 
From: "Peter F. Delaney" <pd1x+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: house-rules
	<Bw6GtI.B1v@news.cso.uiuc.edu>

dv52151@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (RedSwordTarga) writes, in response to
jb8n+@andrew.cmu.edu's Cunningham analogy:

>Well, that's an nice analogy, but I've yet to see a mage who had a 
>spell that could take down a fighter of equal experience in one round.
>Sleep works at low levels, but only if the mage starts out a good distance
>away. If he starts out in close, he can usually take the spell
>and then put the mage on the floor. 

	What are you talking about?  Sleep  = No Saving Throw.  Color Spray =
No Saving Throw.  Low level fighter is toast.  Read the spell
descriptions, notice the SF=1!  These spells are vicious.  As for higher
levels, I still think the mage will win.   I leave the proof of this as
an exercise for the reader.

Pe+eR
.
Pe+eR Delaney, CMU, Pittburgh, PA ... Compuserve: 73750,3667
Internet: blackclove+@cmu.edu ...  Local: pd1x
PSYCHOLOGY:  The art of getting a really huge government grant
to say, in fancy words, "We don't know why."
From: tao@ginger.princeton.edu (Terry Tao)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd
Subject: Re: Intelligent opponents:Dragon
Date: 8 Oct 92 14:40:22 GMT
Organization: Princeton University
Originator: news@nimaster

Another idea about dragon lairs: a red dragon, say, tends to live inside
volcanoes and other very hot places: I'm sure the dragon would be able
to scupt the caves and so forth so that the gusts of hot air would be incredible.
Thus, most normal adventurer aerial technology (or magipower?) would be useless,
e.g. flying steeds, carpets, most low-level flying spells.  The dragon with its
huge wingspan etc would'nt mind the thermals, and would probably need them to get
up in the morning anyway.

Dragons in dragon lairs should be invincible.  Dragons outside lairs should be
nearly so - after all, the dragon can always fly away if there are too many
PC adventurers about, and come back and fry them later at his own time.

However, perhaps the dragons themselves spread stories of easy kills and huge
loads of treasure.  After all, the treasure has to come from somewhere... (this
is for incredibly cruel DMs only).

One thing I liked in other posts was the use of other dragon weapons: wings,
tails, roar.  claw/claw/bite/breath is after all, not much different from other
monsters (except for the breath).  I can imagine fire-resistant munchkins, with
armor that protects against piercing weapons like the claws, suddenly assailed
with dust storms and sonic vibrations.  A good dragon will always have a
variety of attacks: the red dragon (which I keep using as an example) will know
the danger of having mainly fire attacks, and will keep, say, a cauldron of green
slime, and some heavy boulders, pit traps, etc in strategic places.  Plus there
may be an entire tribe of small creatures (E.g. salamanders, fire lizards) who
cohabit with the dragon and maybe even worship it.  As mentioned before, an
entire horde of humanoids can be a lot worse than one single big monster.

Terry
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd
From: cptully@med.unc.edu (Christopher P. Tully,Pathology,62699)
Subject: Re: Dancing Sword and THAC0, part II
Reply-To: cptully@med.unc.edu
Organization: UNC-CH School of Medicine
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 16:57:10 GMT

In article 2894@wkuvx1.bitnet, fannicm@wkuvx1.bitnet () writes:
{edited see previous posts}

>	That is a very logical way of looking at it, but if you subscribe to
>that logic, I submit that you should alter one other rule as well.  If you
>teach the swords how to fight, it seems to gain in power as it learns more
>about you (logical progression), but when you let it go, it begins to loose
>what it has learned.  So, all that means is that the progression of plusses
>should be changed to +1 through +4, then +4 through +1, and when I reaches
>+1 it has 'forgotten' everything and you need to re-teach it...After all,
>how long a memory can a hunk of metal have???
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

depends on how long you wait before heating it up too much.  Some
metals (known as memory metals) can be bent all out of shape, but
return to their original shape when heated.  These are used for such
nifty things as hydraulic fittings in planes (esp. military planes); in
this application, they are machined to slightly smaller than service
diameter and then stretched.  When these fittings are put in place,
they are heated to shrink them down to fit the pipes.  Then during
flight, the stresses in the system cause two competing processes.  1)
the fittings stretch.  2) the hydraulic oils heat up, which causes the
fittings to shrink back down!  The only way to get one of these
fittings off is to cut it.


---
*********************************************************************
Chris(topher) P. Tully				<cptully@med.unc.edu>
Univ. of North Carolina - Chapel Hill		1122 Vic Charles Dr.
Department of Pathology				Raleigh, NC 27606
CB# 7525			work: (919) 966-2699
Chapel Hill, NC 27599		hone: (919) 851-8816
*********************************************************************
I get paid for my opinions, but that doesn't mean that UNC or anybody
                     else agrees with them.
From: seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd
Subject: Re: Lich / Holy Swords
Date: 8 Oct 92 15:26:49 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Originator: seawasp@unixd1.cis.pitt.edu

In article <1992Oct8.094007.3142@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> abistak@nyx.cs.du.edu (Andrew Bistak) writes:
>Thanks for all the feedback on the Lich. Currently the
>Lich is only playing with our party but I'll tell you of the conclusion
>soon. 

	Yep, sounds like a lich. They always like to play with their food
first.

>Heres another question though : When (What level) or should a Paladin get
>a Holy Sword?

	Level is virtually irrelevant. The Paladin should get one ONLY
if he's done something so staggeringly Paladinish that the Gods will
notice and say, "For heroism and truth,justice,and the American Way
beyond the Call of Duty, you deserve this!".

	If you really want a level number, well, considering the power of
the item, I'd guess around 20th.


                                 Sea Wasp
                                   /^\
                                   ;;;
From: ccoprdj@prism.gatech.EDU (Jorge Diaz)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd
Subject: Re: Lich / Holy Swords
Date: 9 Oct 92 03:35:45 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology

In article <7116@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp) writes:

>	In other words, I was saying if you're just going to hand them
>out at level "X", make "x" a very high number that most people will
>never reach.

Oh, in that case, I agree with you wholeheartedly. :-)

-- 
Jorge Diaz                       | "I want you to remember, Clark... in all
Georgia Institute of Technology  |  the years to come, in your most private
Office of Information Technology |  moments...my hand at your throat.  I want
ccoprdj@prism.gatech.edu         |  you to remember the one man who beat you."
From: jw67+@andrew.cmu.edu (Jordan M. Wolbrum)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd
Subject: Re: Level draining seems sadistic, doesn't it?
Date: 16 Oct 92 20:59:14 GMT
	<1992Oct16.144718.1@economics.adelaide.edu.au>
Organization: Freshman, CIT general, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

>Personally I think this is not enough, undead are supposed to be
loathsome fear
>inducing monsters.  Losing a level temporarily for a day or two doesn't really
>hurt me that badly (unless you encounter lots of draining undead) unless my
>party and I are foolish enough to press on and on until we are 1st level PC's
>taking on vampires for instance.

Ravenloft talks about fear and horror in an interesting way.  The rules
book says that it's easy for the character to see something horrifying,
and for the player to casually munch popcorn and say, "What's so bad
about that?"  In my opinion, the loss of a level for five minutes would
put a person in utter terror.  Think about it.  All of a sudden, you
can't do things you were able to do before.  Your memories fog.  Your
sword feels heavier, and you begin to doubt your own abilities.  To me,
this sounds terrifyingly scary.  You, the player may know that the level
will come back soon, but the character doesn't.  Even with repeated
experiences, it's not a feeling that your characters would expose
themselves to lightly.  Also, do you always have time to rest during
adventures?    I think you should be looking from your characters
perspective(i.e. not, oh well, my THAC0 dropped one point, big deal, but
I've lost a piece of myself and I can't find it, and can't relate to
life as well without it).

Still open to suggestions on the bboard.
From: dcgonyie@eos.ncsu.edu (DWAINE CHARLES GONYIER)
Subject: Question about 2nd Ed Wrestling
Originator: dcgonyie@c00090-100lez.eos.ncsu.edu
Reply-To: dcgonyie@eos.ncsu.edu (DWAINE CHARLES GONYIER)
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 20:13:34 GMT


I'm fairly new at DMing, but I do managed to get around most problems of rules
interpretation, etc, but there is one catch I haven't been able to figure out.

In the Second Edition Rules, certain d20 TH rolls result in a 'hold' on the
wrestling combat tables.  The problem with this system is that once a character
gains a hold on his opponent, it is virtually impossible to break.  I
understand the fact that in wrestling the whole point is to gain a
winning hold on your opponent, but there are also ways to escape from
holds. It the 2nd Ed system, a hold result can be broken only by rolling
a specific to hit result (i.e throw, gouge, etc). In this fashion, the
combat round degenerates into the player desperately trying to get a
specific result on the die rather than trying for a good combat move (i.e a
high to hit roll on the d20 plus mods, etc.).  Basically, my players groan when
I announce that they are jumped by surprise must wrestle their way out.  Usually,
a player that has a character that has just be pinned throws down his dice and
sarcastically says "Ok, so he has me in a hold. I lose. Does he break my neck,
or just knock me out and rob me?"  I have some sympathy for them because I too 
resent combat systems that are so biased that the first successful move 
basically declares who will inevitably win.  I would prefer a system that allows
for some chance of turn around even if the losing character is out-matched. I
mean don't players enjoy the game if you say "...and the Orc wrestling champion,
Bone Picker places you in his inescapable death grip, and your character is 
overwhelmed by the instense strength of his evil grip. Looks like you might not
get out of this one. (A few die rolls later,) But wait! You think you see a
way to get him off of you...You gather what's left of your quickly wanning
strength and kick as hard as you can.  His grip relaxes suddenly as you 
experience a sensation of pain like nothing you have encountered before: 
an orc screaming in a pitch you thought was impossible for them to obtain..."
Hey, any escape is still an escape...


I would much appreciate any response offered.

Also, I'm going to be out of town for a week, so would anyone responding
please e-mail me their suggestions ( dcgonyie@eos.ncsu.edu ).

Thanx alot.

Lord Stingray ----- The Unknown and Unknowing..............

Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd
From: malamb@eos.ncsu.edu (MARCUS ALAN LAMB)
Subject: New FR PBeM is Full
Originator: malamb@c00162-100lez.eos.ncsu.edu
Reply-To: malamb@eos.ncsu.edu (MARCUS ALAN LAMB)
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 01:18:16 GMT


Last Thursday I posted info about my new FR PBeM.  I was on Fall Break
Vacation for a week.  Now I am back, and I have to admit that I am surprised
by the number of interested players.  I have just finished reading my 81
messages.  A lot of people replied but did not include a chracter.  I
took the first suitable characters that replied until the game was full.
I have already sent messages to these people, so if you do not have a
letter from me, then your character is not in my game.  If this works
well, then I will begin another game (with more characters involved) in
the semi-near future.  Contact me if you are interested in playing in
the future, and I'll take down your name.  Thanks for the response.  

                    ***********************
                    *                     *
                    *      Marc Lamb      *
                    *                     *
                    * malamb@eos.ncsu.edu *
                    *                     *
                    *     N.C. State      *
                    *                     *
                    ***********************
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd
Subject: Alignments: A new look
From: Geoffrey@yvax.byu.edu
Date: 11 Oct 92 14:56:31 -0700
Reply-To: Geoffrey@yvax.byu.edu
Distribution: world
Organization: BYU
Keywords: Alignments

Comments will be welcomed.

I've been playing for a long time now...when I come across rules or pretty much
anything about the game that bothers me, I, just like every other DM, change it
so it makes more sense to me.  Alignments, the way they are described in DND,
don't make sense to me.  Here's what I came up with...tell me what you think
about it.

To align with something or someone is to try and follow the same "line" as the
object in question.  The object that "line" refers to in DND is deities.  If
someone pledges discipleship to any particular deity, that person has pledged
to learn from and become like his master (disciple = student, master =
teacher).

Keeping all of this in mind, alignments no longer are simply magic's way of
judging your character's moral desires.  Alignment now shows the general
"line", path or direction you have chosen to follow.  Therefore, if a detect
evil spell is cast, the caster will notice you.  The spell doesn't go into your
mind and research your current intents and general demeanor of the day...it
only looks at who you are aligned to and what the moral content of your deity
just happens to be.

I know that the way I run alignments is not "by the book" DND rules, but it
does make sense to me.

Once again, comments will be appreciated.

Geoffrey Eastbrook

Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd
From: lum@cs.tu-berlin.de (Lutz Hofmann)
Subject: Re: house-rules
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 18:53:17 GMT

In article <QeqgCCG00VpNERllIW@andrew.cmu.edu> "Peter F. Delaney"
<pd1x+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>But the point remains, there
>didn't used to be a reason for anyone except priests to have high
>Wisdom, so if you use any system that allows players to roll and then
>place stats, the low scores will probably go into WIS and CHA for your
>fighter (not always, but usually).

I am rather fond of the hefty wisdom bonus to savingthrows against the
mindaffecting spells. So highest scores go to wisdom and dexterity.
Intelligence is left in the middle reaches (cos you cannot properly
play a very intelligent character :-) we used to simulate it with all
players contributing to the scheming of that character. :-)

So the worse scores go to charisma.

Yours Sincerely   Lutz Hofmann
                  lum@cs.tu-berlin.de
-- 
Ob. Disc: Dies ist kein Flame.   ---   This is no flame.
From: zweldron@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Matthew Charlap)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd
Subject: Thri-Kreen using non-chathka missiles (was Thri-Kreen and blowguns)
Date: 9 Oct 92 01:47:36 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

dshaffer@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Donald A Shaffer) writes:
>trying to do the same tricks with bows &crossbows&and chatka.(Why a thri kreen
>would use any other mjissile weapon is beyond me :).
two reasons:
1) the T.K. is lower than 5th level and is not proficient.
2) Just because you are proficient in Chathka doesn't mean you will have one.
--Matthew
Organization: Freshman, CIT general, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 18:14:04 -0400 
From: "Jordan M. Wolbrum" <jw67+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: A Viable spell point system.

This spell point system is very destructive to the high level mage, or
very advantageous, depending on the adventure.  Assume a 20th level mage
with an 18 INT who rolls an average of 8 on the 10-die.  He has 52 spell
points, which will allow him to cast seventeen twenty-die fireballs,
plus a magic missile spell.  Or, he can cast a total of 1040 magic
missiles.  As an attack force, this mage rarely needs to cast his high
level spells.  Why cast power word kill, when you can cast 70 magic
missiles(minimum damage of 140 hp!)?  I apologize if I have
underestimated the level of PWK.  Part of what defines spell level is
the system upon which spells are memorized and cast.
The mage gets hosed when he wants to be versatile.  An intelligent
high-level mage is so great because today he can be a scout(invis, fly,
divination magics, etc.), tomorrow he can be a warlock(pick your
favorite attack spells!), and the day after he can be a defender(prot
from norm missiles, shield, and othe abjuration magics).  Also, a 20th
level mage gets enough spells to be all of these at once!  Most
recently, I think a mage gets 5 5 5 5 5 4 4 3 2 at 20th level.  That
amounts to 169 spell points, more than twice that of a more-than-normal
mage with your system.

One more reason why it doesn't work:
Assume an illusionist with a 9 INT, and the true average of a
10-die(5.5).  This poor 10th level illusionist can cast 14.5 levels of
spells a day.  That's less than one spell from each level he can cast(15
levels).Give him a 14 INT, and he's only one fifth level spell better. 
IMNSHO, this system is terrible.

I don't think spell point systems work, but if you fix this one, I'll
listen again.  Happy creating.

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Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd