From: eshin@ddsw1.mcs.com (Eshin-Fun)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,alt.magick
Subject: Re: Santeria
Date: 7 Nov 92 17:31:26 GMT
Organization: ddsw1.MCS.COM Contributor, Chicago IL
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3

>>Tagi@cup.portal.com (Thyagi Morgoth NagaSiva) writes:
: 
: [Old Tagi}:
: 
: There was a request for information sources regarding Santeria.
: I hope that someone will compile an authoritative list and follow
: me up with it.  I have a very poor section in my library on this
: subject, but I'll do what I can...
: 
: 
: Eshin:
: 
: So, did you ever read the series on the Lucumi/Santeria that I have been
: posting all along?? In fact there is one presently running LUCUMI 5.
: In these postings there has been ample references and bibliography to follow
: up the subject....
: 
: 
: Response:
: 
: No I did not.  If I saw these, and I may have, then I found your writing
: impenetrable and convoluted.  This says nothing about you, just that I
: don't find your writing compatible with my reading taste.

Tagi,

If you had seen these posts, you may have found that they were a little bit
more coherent and explanatory than the impenetrable and convoluted writings
of Aleister Crowley that at times you defend. This says nothing of you, just
merely that by comparison the writing that I have posted on the subject
covered material with a clarity that many occult works lack. If your tastes
are so stoical and sophisticated then I would suggest you leave
Santeria/Voodoun alone. 

This religous conviction is dynamic and sensual and lacks the austere
indifference to joy, grief, pleasure or pain that a stoic, clinical approach
to religion and magick some may prefer.


: [old Tagi]:
: 
: I've got some things about Voudoun and Yoruba, but these are somewhat
: different than Santeria if my sources are correct.  Good luck!
: 

Yes, there are differences, but then again there are many similarities. The
Yoruba is after all a source of both Santeria and Voodoun pantheons and
traditions. It is also found in the Macumba and Candomble of Brazil and
Bahia.
But you may have to define what exactly it is that you are researching. And
if you are to be an intermediary to someone else's inquiry then you have to
be a bit more lucid or less cryptic in what the question is. Better yet,
give the question to some one else who can answer it.

If on the other hand, it fascinates you then come out and admidt it.

: Eshin
: 
: There are good books and bad books. Whiples abortive attempt is a very good
: example of a "bad" book. Lidya Cabrera's El Monte is an example of a "good"
: book. Though both writers were uninitiated at the time of their first
: writings, Cabreara is Cuban and got first hand info from old Santeros.
: 
: [Contentious criticism omitted.]
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I was not aware that I was being beligerent by clarifying distinctions of
styles of writing and the thoughtlessness in which they were compiled.

I am sure that you would be equally contentious at some alleged grimoirs
that were compiled just as indiscriminately as these were. I have found that
at times you have even been as critical to their references.

: 
: 
: Response:
: 
: As I said, I have no claim to my sources yet was asking for a nice
: bibliography (NOT an essay with a bibliography) about Santeria (and any
: other of these subjects: Yoruba, Voodoo, Voudoun, etc., set into comprehendable
: subject divisions where possible).


Being that Santeria/Voodoun etc is a mystery religion there seems not to be
any "how to do yourself" books to enlighten anyone who is profane and
uninitiated. Whatever books you can find on the subject that is worth while
are in Spanish, french and portugese. But, they may not meet with your
stated compatability of "reading tastes" as they usually >are< an essay with
or without a bibliography.
No initiated Santero/Santera has ever written a pure discourse without
omissions and deliberate lacuna as so much importance is placed on the
initiated state which is usually untransmitable except person to person.

Comprehendable efforts are rare if at all found in english. And they usually
start with someone's efforts to debunking the subject and finding themselves
ethnocentric or confused by the tremendous amount of contradictions that
different sources >will< attempt to delude the uninitiated with.


:  If you have this, please present it.
: If it is attached to your essay series, please post JUST the bibliography
: to this newsgroup and I'll be happy to compend a bibliography reposting 
: each time the subject is inquired about in alt.magick.  Thanks.
: 

A starter bibliography that reputable is:

BLACK GODS AND KINGS: by Robert Farris Thompson

TALES OF YORUBA GODS AND HEROES: by Harold Courlander

EL MONTE: by Lydia Cabrera

RELIGION OF THE YORUBAS: by J. Olumide Lucas

THE AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF A RUNAWAY SLAVE: by Esteban Montejo

THE DIVINE HORSEMEN: THE VOODOO GODS OF HAITI: by Maya Deren

ITA mitologia de la religion "Yoruba" by Cecilio Perez

AFRICAN RELIGIONS AND PHILOSOPHY: by John S. Mbiti

AFRICA'S OGUN old world and new : by Sandra T.Barnes

VOODOO: by Gert Chesi

Good luck!

: -------------------------------------------------------------
: "I wanna be loved by you
: By you, and nobody else but you.
: I wanna be loved by you alooooone.
: Boop-oop-ee-doo!"
: 
: Dunno the name of the song, but Marilyn Monroe is the one I
: remember who sang it. ;>

I love that song too....[smile] but do you know the one from Can can that
goes something like...


If you want to pass, through those gilded gates
Where the bourgois meet the sophisticate,
to exchange their views,
and to compare their mates.........come along with me!

Come along with me, my pretty,
Let me open, your eyes,
In this great big wicked city,
It is folly not to be wise!

And maybe if sometime, baby, you would care 
In an intellectual love affair,
I'll improve your mind,
If you let down your..........hair....

Come along, that's right,
Come along, come alone with me!


Eshin-Fun
Newsgroups: alt.pagan