HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sears@tree.egr.uh.edu (Paul S. Sears)
Newsgroups: tx.general
Subject: Re: University of Texas conflict
Date: 22 Jan 1993 19:29:06 GMT
Organization: University of Houston
Reply-To: sears@uh.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: thanatos.egr.uh.edu

In article <1993Jan21.205328.22029@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca>  
mroussel@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Marc Roussel) writes:
#In article <1jms6dINN2l8@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> mccoy@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
#(Jim McCoy) writes:
#
#     It's not that simple.  First of all, nearby sites often request to
#receive ut traffic.  (As far as I can tell, "nearby" is a state of mind.
#Both sets of ut groups are distributed quite widely as far as I can
#tell.)  Secondly, cross-posts to non-ut newsgroups defeat the local
#distribution restriction mechanism.  (Look at the newsgroups line of
#this posting for instance.)
#     The real (often discussed but never implemented) solution is for us
#to rename our local newsgroups to something more significant.  This
#problem is going to get worse rather than better as more and more sites
#connect to the Internet.  How many UTs are there in the world?
#I have also seen (although more rarely) postings from Toledo and someone
#tells me they have seen postings from Tokyo.
#>
#>Which is, of course, why your official Internet domain name is
#>toronto.edu... 
#
#     Actually, the University of Toronto is both toronto.edu and
#utoronto.ca.  Both are official domain names.
#
#				Marc R. Roussel
#                                mroussel@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca

Hmmm... I wonder if the University of Hawaii gets some of our local posts  
since our local groups are uh.*

This makes for some interesting problems...  And to make matters worse,  
our domain is "uh.edu" so our local groups follow our domain...

--
Paul S. Sears                *  sears@uh.edu (NeXT Mail OK)
The University of Houston    *  suggestions@tree.egr.uh.edu (NeXT
Engineering Computing Center *  comments, complaints, questions)
NeXT System Administration   *  DoD#1967 '83 NightHawk 650SC 
          >>> SSI Diving Certification #755020059 <<<
"Programming is like sex: One mistake and you support it a lifetime."
Newsgroups: tx.general
From: jfh@rpp386 (John F. Haugh II)
Subject: Re: State Income Tax
Reply-To: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II)
Organization: Los Tejanos SCUBA Club and Beer Joint, Austin, Tejas
Distribution: tx
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 14:50:52 GMT

In article <1993Jan20.145111.27001@digi.lonestar.org> mharriso@digi.lonestar.org (Mark Harrison) writes:
>>The poor are shut out.  The private schools are generally not
>>located very close to slum areas (where the poor live).
>>
>>	And you are ignoring the fact that a lot of these private schools
>>already have a waiting list to get in.
>
>You are not taking into account the fact that the voucher system will
>allow (and encourage) private schools to start in places where it is
>not feasible for them to start currently.

He is also not taking into account the fact that many private school
buildings were constructed decades ago - when the parts of town which
are now "poor" were once "middle" or "upper class".

I do house work for my church.  Many of the houses we work on are less
that 1,500 square feet.  That used to be a mansion.  Today "starter"
homes run about 1,500 square feet and couples move out when they have
their first kid.
-- 
John F. Haugh II                  [ PGP 2.1 ] !'s: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh
Ma Bell: (512) 251-2151           [ DoF #17 ]        @'s: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org

The DDT ban has killed more Africans than the AIDS epidemic.  Legalize DDT now.
From: mharriso@digi.lonestar.org (Mark Harrison)
Newsgroups: tx.general
Subject: Re: State Income Tax
Date: 27 Jan 93 22:17:22 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: DSC Communications Corp, Plano, TX

In article <1993Jan26.184404.17034@montagar.com> davidc@montagar.com (David L. Cathey) writes:
>	And what influence do they have in Plano and Richardson have that
>parents don't have elsewhere?  Possibly interested parents?  Parents that take
>the time to look at their children's schooling?  Vouchers won't get the 
>current uninterested parents involved anymore than they are now.
>
>	If the parents don't seem to care about their childrens education,
>that message is read loud and clear by the "students", and they feel why
>should they care either.
>
>David L. Cathey		                |INET: davidc@montagar.com

Here you've hit the the compelling reason for vouchers.
The thing that Plano, Richardson, and most other places with good
school districts have is a *critical mass* of interested parents.
Voucher will allow those parents who DO care to make sure their
children get a good education, even if they are in an area where
the majority of parents don't care.

(WRT influence -- it's easy for a parent who work in one of the
professions to take a couple of hours off to talk to a teacher,
principal, etc.  Lower paid wage earners have that luxury to
such an extent.)

Mark.
-- 
Mark Harrison, mharriso@dsccc.com
From: exuptr@exu.ericsson.se (Sunbird a la 400ci)
Newsgroups: tx.general
Subject: Re: State Income Tax
Date: 23 Jan 93 23:23:41 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: Ericsson Network Systems, Inc.
X-Disclaimer: This article was posted by a user at Ericsson.
              Any opinions expressed are strictly those of the
              user and not necessarily those of Ericsson.

In article <1993Jan22.153929.11214@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
In article <1993Jan21.144306.4496@rpp386> jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II) writes:
>>Sorry, this is also wrong.  Private schools accept 98% of their applicants.

>Sorry, but I have to question this number.  It may be true for a
>certain subgroup of private schools, but if it were true overall,
>every child in America would be going to Choate.  I also question the
>acceptance (and retention) of those with various learning disabilities
>in many of the private schools in the country.

Fred's right here.  My own personal experience with private schools is more 
like 30 to 50 % acceptance rate.  Of course, it's based on academic 
performance level, and usually the reason is that the school is trying to 
keep their reputation as the best.

I had a problem with one public school in Dallas, where they essentially 
suggested that we would have to make an extra donation for my daughter to 
remain there.  This came up after she tested as having a minor hand-eye 
"learning difference", technically a dyslexia.

I will not mention the school except to say that our daughter's physician 
also graduated from there and he had advised us that $$$ could cure the 
problem.
 -----------Visit the SOUNDING BOARD BBS 214-596-2915, a Wildcat! BBS--------
 ObQuotes:
 "Quick to judge, quick to anger, slow to understand..."
 "Ignorance and prejudice, and fear go hand-in-hand..."

    Patrick Taylor, Ericsson Network Systems
    exuptr@exu.ericsson.se                    "Don't let the .se fool you"
Newsgroups: tx.general
From: jfh@rpp386 (John F. Haugh II)
Subject: Re: Vouchers; erroneously labeled: State Income Tax
Reply-To: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II)
Organization: Los Tejanos SCUBA Club and Beer Joint, Austin, Tejas
Distribution: tx
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 04:19:16 GMT

In article <jrh.2b637dfc-e@mustang.dell.com> jrh@mustang.dell.com (Randy Howard) writes:
>Hey!  John, guess what?  I found something we can agree on.  Public schools
>are going to perdition in a pushcart, and quickly.  This new buzzword, 
>"Outcome-Based Education" is one that really scares me.  It sounds good,
>doesn't it?  Catchy name.  Funny how the worst programs always have the
>snazziest names.  

When I was in the 6th grade I had a reading teacher who was part of a program
committee to come up with a new special education program.  They were going
to get rid of the name "Special Education" because everyone had figured out
that it meant "Dumb as Dirt."  The name that was being batted around for the
students was "Diamonds," because they were so "precious."  Her comment was
that they were being called "Diamonds" because their heads were hard as
rocks.

Now, I admit this is being pretty cruel, but come on.  Changing the name of
a program because everyone figured out what it meant?
-- 
John F. Haugh II                  [ PGP 2.1 ] !'s: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh
Ma Bell: (512) 251-2151           [ DoF #17 ]        @'s: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org

The DDT ban has killed more Africans than the AIDS epidemic.  Legalize DDT now.
From: miller@hmsp04.wg3.waii.com (Griff Miller X7114)
Newsgroups: tx.general
Subject: Re: State Income Tax
Date: 25 Jan 93 16:44:55 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: Western Geo. - Div of Western Atlas Intn'l Inc., Houston, TX

In article <1993Jan23.212109.13131@rpp386> jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II) writes:
>to pick up after their students - or - GASP! - the students can be
>required to pick up after THEMSELVES!

No, John! AAAAHHHHH! That's child labor! Don't you dare drive my child as
if he were your slave. I paid for his education, and you're not getting
any free labor from him. Why, I'll call my congressman. I, I'll SUE.

:-)
--
Griff Miller > miller@monarch.wg3.waii.com < use this for email.

          *** My opinions are mine, not Western's. ***

   "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but 
    fools despise wisdom and discipline."   - Proverbs 1:7 
Newsgroups: tx.general
From: pedersen@seas.smu.edu (Ted Pedersen)
Subject: Where is Copras Cove,TX?
Organization: SMU - School of Engineering & Applied Science - Dallas
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 20:49:35 GMT

A friend in England is trying to track someone down who is supposedly
in Copras Cove, TX. My friend asked me where this is and if there is
an army base there. I had to admit that I didn't know. Anyone out
there heard of such a place.

Thanks
Ted
---
* Ted Pedersen                                  pedersen@seas.smu.edu * 
* Department of Computer Science and Engineering,                     *
* Southern Methodist University, Dallas, TX 75275      (214) 768-2126 *
Newsgroups: tx.general
From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: State Income Tax
Organization: Texas Instruments, Inc
Distribution: tx
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 15:42:32 GMT

In article <1993Jan20.145111.27001@digi.lonestar.org> mharriso@digi.lonestar.org (Mark Harrison) writes:
>>The poor are shut out.  The private schools are generally not
>>located very close to slum areas (where the poor live).
>>
>>	And you are ignoring the fact that a lot of these private schools
>>already have a waiting list to get in.
>
>You are not taking into account the fact that the voucher system will
>allow (and encourage) private schools to start in places where it is
>not feasible for them to start currently.

And you are not taking into account the fact that this will certainly
not happen immediately, if it happens at al.  And if it does happen,
it probably will not happen to the degree necessary to allow all those
folks in slum areas to attend, and it will almost certainly be a worse
education than they are currently getting unless you have some plan
for the voucher to be for a relatively large amount.  So, what happens
to those who are trapped for several years in a public school system
which is deteriorating at an exponential rate because we are bleeding
money out of it to allow middle and upper class students to go to
their nice private schools on public monies?

Note that this also kicks all the tax rebate voucher plans in the
head, since poor people typically don't have enough property taxes to
make this a net win -- which means that such plans are even worse for
the poor than straight voucher plans.

-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
From: mharriso@digi.lonestar.org (Mark Harrison)
Newsgroups: tx.general
Subject: Re: State Income Tax
Date: 21 Jan 93 15:36:12 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: DSC Communications Corp, Plano, TX

In article <1993Jan18.155057.10708@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:

>I don't see how this is going to work unless your 'voucher' is enough
>to cover the entire cost of the school, which isn't the case with any
>such system I've heard seriously proposed.  There is also still the
>problem of getting those schools to come in and start.

If you wanted to start a 3-classroom (90 students?) school, and had
$2000/student tuition, that's about $180,000 per year.  Tight, but
possible.

>>(Note that when I say private schools, I'm not talking about exclusive
>>prep schools with well-manicured greens, etc...  I'm talking about
>>shoestring operations working out of storefronts, etc.)
>
>Well, THAT sure sounds better than fixing the public schools to me.
>NOT!  Sounds like what you're calling for is just another version of
>separate but unequal, except subsidized to make people feel like they
>have 'a choice'.

Sorry if that's what it sounds like.  I want parents to have the choice
to send their kids to a school where the kids will really learn
something instead of just being warehoused until they turn 18.  I hate
to say it, but I really feel that has become the mission of some schools.
Not in Plano or Richardson, where affluent educated parents are able to
influence the schools in the right direction, but in other places where
the parents don't have that kind of influence.

>>Here's an interesting fact:  In New York City, The cost per student per
>>year of education in the public schools is over $8000.  In the
>>Parochial school system, it is less than $5000.
>
>This isn't particularly unusual.  Costs for parochial schools are
>typically about half of the costs for public (and non-parochial
>private) schools nationwide.

>However, there is that slight problem
>with spending public monies in support of religions (parochial
>schools) and that troublesome Amendment.

You mean the one that starts out "Congress shall make no law respecting
an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise
therof"?  The only problem I see with that some legislator may try to
pass a law that differentiates between schools based on the content of
their religion class.
-- 
Mark Harrison, mharriso@dsccc.com
Newsgroups: tx.general
From: janner@cactus.org (Jeffrey W. Janner)
Subject: Re: Schools
Organization: Capital Area Central Texas UNIX Society, Austin, Tx
Distribution: tx
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 05:08:48 GMT

In article <1993Jan24.193858.17247@rpp386>, jfh@rpp386 (John F. Haugh II) writes:
> In article <C1C2nD.wGJ@austin.ibm.com> me@vikings.austin.ibm.com (Michael E) writes:
> >John's homework assignment: Create a budget for a private school based on 
> >whatever aforementioned conditions. 
> 
> John's School Budget -
> 
> Expenses
> 	3 rooms @ $500 per month, $1,500 per month		 18,000
> 	  12 months per year
> 	textbooks, 5 year lifetime, 10 per student,		  5,400
> 	  average cost of $30
> 	desks, chairs, etc., $200 per student, 10		  1,800
> 	  year lifetime
John, can you supply your math here!  We came up with 9 students &
and 3 students, Respectively.  (this is total?)
> 	supplies, $50 per student, per class, per		 27,000
> 	  year (6 classes)
Howw are you going to get 6 classes into 3 rooms?
Where will you find the teachers who can adequately teach
six seperate subjects?
> 	salaries, 3 teachers @ $35K/yr				105,000
> 	employer paid taxes					  8,032
> 	benefits
> 		health insurance @ $300/mon			 10,800
> 		disability @ $50/mon				  1,800
> 		retirement @ $100/mon				  3,600
You really expect a small employer to supply *any* of the above 
benefits?  (See previous post!)  Don't forget plan administration costs!
> 	tax accountant						  1,000
Well you added account, now add the taxes.  (BTW: can you tell me where
to find one for this price?  For year round consulting?
> 	total							182,432
> 
> Revenues
> 	90 students @ $2,000 per student			180,000
> 
> 
> This would be a 3 room school, with three teachers each having 30 students
> paying $2,000 per year tuition.  These numbers are all pretty supportable
> using current office space costs, benefits expenses, and are competitive
> with current teacher salaries.  We'd have to appoint a blue-ribbon board
> to find that $2,432 per year, but with a million dollar grant from the
> federal government, I think we could find it.  Or we might just take an
Grant from the FEDS?  I thought this was a *private* school?
> extra 4 or 5 students or raise tuition an extra 20 or 30 dollars.  Or
> maybe we even cut the supplies down to something less extravagent.
> 
> But at any rate, I think I've proven that it is rather doable.
> -- 

You did an okay job here, but I would argue with some of your base assumptions,
but it's getting late.  Re-check your math (Provide it please), add some
more real-world expenses, etc., and you might have a workable budget here.
Then you could publish it or use it for your disertation and get out of
here and go back up North. ;-) :-)

Jeff Janner        |   janner@cactus.org
Newsgroups: tx.general
From: jfh@rpp386 (John F. Haugh II)
Subject: Re: Schools
Reply-To: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II)
Organization: Los Tejanos SCUBA Club and Beer Joint, Austin, Tejas
Distribution: tx
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 19:38:58 GMT

In article <C1C2nD.wGJ@austin.ibm.com> me@vikings.austin.ibm.com (Michael E) writes:
>John's homework assignment: Create a budget for a private school based on 
>whatever aforementioned conditions. 

John's School Budget -

Expenses
	3 rooms @ $500 per month, $1,500 per month		 18,000
	  12 months per year
	textbooks, 5 year lifetime, 10 per student,		  5,400
	  average cost of $30
	desks, chairs, etc., $200 per student, 10		  1,800
	  year lifetime
	supplies, $50 per student, per class, per		 27,000
	  year (6 classes)
	salaries, 3 teachers @ $35K/yr				105,000
	employer paid taxes					  8,032
	benefits
		health insurance @ $300/mon			 10,800
		disability @ $50/mon				  1,800
		retirement @ $100/mon				  3,600
	tax accountant						  1,000
	total							182,432

Revenues
	90 students @ $2,000 per student			180,000


This would be a 3 room school, with three teachers each having 30 students
paying $2,000 per year tuition.  These numbers are all pretty supportable
using current office space costs, benefits expenses, and are competitive
with current teacher salaries.  We'd have to appoint a blue-ribbon board
to find that $2,432 per year, but with a million dollar grant from the
federal government, I think we could find it.  Or we might just take an
extra 4 or 5 students or raise tuition an extra 20 or 30 dollars.  Or
maybe we even cut the supplies down to something less extravagent.

But at any rate, I think I've proven that it is rather doable.
-- 
John F. Haugh II                  [ PGP 2.1 ] !'s: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh
Ma Bell: (512) 251-2151           [ DoF #17 ]        @'s: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org

The DDT ban has killed more Africans than the AIDS epidemic.  Legalize DDT now.
From: mharriso@digi.lonestar.org (Mark Harrison)
Newsgroups: tx.general
Subject: Re: State Income Tax
Date: 21 Jan 93 15:11:25 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: DSC Communications Corp, Plano, TX

In article <C16Io5.2H23@austin.ibm.com> johniac@austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti) writes:
>In article <7D7NRY4@taronga.com>, peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes:
>|> It will benefit *some* poor in inner cities pretty quickly: the bright ones
>|> who can win a supplemantal scholarship,
>
>But this is already being done by the private sector.  Why the heck would you 
>want the government to get involved?

The government is already involved.  If the government wasn't involved, we
wouldn't be asking for voucher or tax credits... we would already have the
money!
-- 
Mark Harrison, mharriso@dsccc.com
From: miller@hmsp04.wg3.waii.com (Griff Miller X7114)
Newsgroups: tx.general
Subject: Re: private schools, vouchers, etc.
Date: 25 Jan 93 16:32:35 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: Western Geo. - Div of Western Atlas Intn'l Inc., Houston, TX

In article <1993Jan23.050143.18558@cactus.org> janner@cactus.org (Jeffrey W. Janner) writes:
>BBTW:  Both of my in-laws work for a border-area school district & I can
>state for a *fact* that the number one problem (NUMERO UNO) is a lack of
>discipline & a lack of an effective method to enforce discipline.  (It
>also ight help if more of the teachers/administrator took an active 
>interest in the *kids* rather than just punching a time-clock and
>considering themselves as under-paid babysitters!)

...and the parents took some responsibility for their kids' discipline and
education rather than viewing the school system as a big daycare facility.

THIS is the major problem with schools today. Everything else is merely a 
sign that something is wrong. Anything the gummit does is simply treatment
of the symptoms. The cure is to be found at the base level of education,
the parents.
--
Griff Miller > miller@monarch.wg3.waii.com < use this for email.

          *** My opinions are mine, not Western's. ***

   "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but 
    fools despise wisdom and discipline."   - Proverbs 1:7
From: davidc@montagar.com (David L. Cathey)
Newsgroups: tx.general
Subject: Re: State Income Tax
Date: 26 Jan 93 23:58:05 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: Montagar Software Concepts, Plano TX

In article <1993Jan23.030212.9835@rpp386>, jfh@rpp386 (John F. Haugh II) writes:
> In article <C1A4np.2G0F@austin.ibm.com> johniac@austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti) writes:
>>In article <1993Jan21.145244.4688@rpp386>, jfh@rpp386 (John F. Haugh II) writes:
>>|> John doesn't understand this because he thinks that one Christian church
>>|> is plug-compatible for another.
>>
>>They basically are.  They fight to the death over minor details, but they 
>>basically believe all the same nonsense.  The only reason I mention the 
>>Roman Catholics by name in this discussion is because they're the ones who
>>have 54% of the private school students.
> 
> Minor details?

	I gotta go with John Haugh on this one.  If Mr. Iacoletti thinks
the differences are minor, you need to take a little trip to Ireland sometime.
Just being Catholic could be a hangin' offense.  To you they may be minor,
but to some it's like saying Jews and Christians are the same, except for
that trivial Messiah thing (which doesn't really matter)...

> -- 
> John F. Haugh II                  [ PGP 2.1 ] !'s: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh
> Ma Bell: (512) 251-2151           [ DoF #17 ]        @'s: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
David L. Cathey		                |INET: davidc@montagar.com
Montagar Software Concepts              |UUCP: ...!montagar!davidc
P. O. Box 260772, Plano TX  75026-0772  |Fone: (214)-618-2117
Newsgroups: tx.general
From: jfh@rpp386 (John F. Haugh II)
Subject: Re: Vouchers; erroneously labeled: State Income Tax
Reply-To: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II)
Organization: Los Tejanos SCUBA Club and Beer Joint, Austin, Tejas
Distribution: tx
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 19:22:14 GMT

In article <C1Bq9A.1CFx@austin.ibm.com> mbrown@testsys.austin.ibm.com (Mark Brown) writes:
>A remark overheard while discussing the "public schools vs. Vouchers"
>problem in a restaurant:
>
>"Yeah, that's the solution to a problem, bail out and run away!"
>
>which kinda sums up that argument, to me.

Yup.  We've been trying for years to get teachers to stop playing
socialist experiments with America's children, but they've not
listened.  Now it's time we took our ball and went someplace else.
-- 
John F. Haugh II                  [ PGP 2.1 ] !'s: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh
Ma Bell: (512) 251-2151           [ DoF #17 ]        @'s: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org

The DDT ban has killed more Africans than the AIDS epidemic.  Legalize DDT now.
Newsgroups: tx.general