HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: German heraldry
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 12:59:16

 JM> Greetings from Arval!

 JM> Gwenllian wrote:

>        Ok, do you have a single, widely available, English-language 
>  source for these German words?  One that the 
> local herald of Podunkia 
>  will be able to access when trying to figure out just what the 
>  emblazon should be so they can determine conflict? 

 JM> I don't think it is reasonable for blazonry to 
 JM> stand in the way of the use
 JM> of a period armorial design element.  Blazonry, as 
 Well, neither do I.  I just like to safeguard the West Texas folks, 
 who are seriously handicapped in terms of library-based heraldry texts. 
 Probably the Pic-Dic would be the best way to go, although that could 
 start getting expensive, much as it is an expensive proposition to keep 
 a current copy of the SCA Ordinary & Armorial.  I'm cheap and broke, 
 and like to look out for the others who may be in that position.
...
>  blazon which has the problem you speak of? 
> (German described in multi-
>  word string).

 JM> Winifred Schyppewallebotham "Per bend Or and 
 I was trying to get the original poster to give a real example, 
 instead of just repeating their complaint :/ But, it is good to see 
 concrete example.  Is there anything that complicated in Anglo-french 
 heraldry that uses a similar type arrangement?  Hmmmmm, you know, that's  a pretty long word.  Given German language construction, that's at 
 least a 3-word description in english, I'd bet......
     Gwenllian Cwmystwyth <who doesn't feel sufficiently educated in 
                          this case to trot out the title...>
     Ansteorra

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: root@surya.UUCP (Root Account)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Drifting Away...
Date: 18 Dec 92 21:04:51 GMT
Organization: Sunshine in a box

atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Cardinal Ximenez) writes:

> David Schroeder <ds4p+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
> >  Did infantry forces have entrenching tools?
> 
>   Having just completed a report on 14th-century warfare, I can say that 
> infantry of that time (and probably earlier) didn't use entrenching as a comm
> defense, since it wouldn't be all that useful against cavalry charges.  The 
> usual defense was a solid wall of long pointy things (pikes or even sharp
> stakes a la _Henry V_) combined with a solid wall of shields to absorb the
> force of the charge.  Another common defense was to choose the terrain, which
> won a number of battles for infantry fighters.
>   As Lothar pointed out, sappers would have used shovels as digging tools--bu
> they were specialized units, not general infantry.



However the romans must have had some form of trenching tools. Their 
standard form of defense and nightly camp involved a ditch, berm (and lots of pointy 
things).



Chandra
From: kleber@husc11.harvard.edu (Gwydden)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: German heraldry
Date: 30 Dec 92 17:57:23 GMT

Quoth Gwenllian Cwmystwyth (did I spell that right?  We welshmen have to
stick together... :-)

>        Ok, do you have a single, widely available, English-language 
>  source for these German words?  One that the local herald of Podunkia 
>  will be able to access when trying to figure out just what the 
>  emblazon should be so they can determine conflict?  

Just a sec-- are you saying that if the answer to this question is
"no", that's a reason to not use the terms?  If we did that-- didn't allow
things because they would place too much strain on our conflict checking
system-- then it sounds to me like it's our conflict checking system's
problem!  To me, that would seem like the College of Heralds' bureaucracy
getting in the way of recreation for sure!


If I'm misrepresenting you and you weren't suggesting that, just ignore
my rantings, of course... :-)

--Gwydden Lawen                           I don't have an overactive
  Borough of Duncharloch, Carolingia      imagination... I have an
  kleber@husc.harvard.edu                 underactive reality...  --EG
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Drachenwald Kingdom ideas
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 20:56:48 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval! 

William offered some ideas on how a kingdom could make the SCA more
authentic within its bounds without violating Corpora.  I think many of
these are all excellent ideas, well-worth trying out.  A few comments:

> 3. Peerage. Corpora regulates the three peerage orders in detail, so
>    we cannot get rid of them. 

True, but you could ignore them entirely, or choose one of the three and
award it to all peers.  The specific requirements that distinguish the
Pelican, Laurel, and Chivalry are so broadly worded that one could easily
fit all peerage-level accomplishment into any of three categories: fighting
and adminstration can be construed as "arts and sciences"; anything can be
construed as "service to the Society"; once you get started, if two-thirds
of the knights were non-fighters, then it would be no problem at all for
new knights to be equal in skill to the members of the order.  Thus, if
Drachenwald wanted to award knighthood to all peerage candidates, it could
do so (as long as the existing knights in the kingdom did not kick up a
fuss at the beginning).

> 5. Feudalism. Sadly, the inauthentic use of nearly all the historic feudal
>    titles is regulated in Corpora, where they are used as personal merit
>    badges and not in a feudal manner.

I believe that if a kingdom approached the Board with a reasonable proposal
to use landed titles in a more authentic way (e.g., Cariadoc's county
proposal), the Board would be willing to allow the experiment.  And of
course the kingdom could eliminate court baroncy and reserve that title to
landed use.

> 6. Theme events...  These would be events where everyone is expected to
>    dress and behave in a manner compatible with the event, regardless
>    of their personae...

You could not require people to do so.  Corpora II.D states:

  Anyone may attend Society events provided he or she wears an attempt at
  pre-17th century dress, conforms to the provisions of the By-Laws and
  Corpora, complies with any other requirements (such as site fees or
  waivers) which may be imposed by the Society, and behaves as a lady or
  gentleman.

The kingdom could certainly establish a strong tradition of conforming to
the theme of these events, but SCA events may not be restricted beyond
Corpora's guideline.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: nusbache@epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: Primitive Firearms
Organization: University of Toronto - Office of the Provost
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 16:54:40 GMT

In article <1hblskINN283@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> cc697@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Eric Oppen) writes:


>Not to mention things like the Hussite Wars, which were in period.  The
>Hussites, religious rebels in Central Europe, used firearms extensively
>from wagon-circle formations like in the Old West.  They chose firearms
>precisely because a peasant recruit could be taught how to use one in a few
>days, while to make a good man with knightly wweapons, the then theory was
>that you had to start with his grandfather.


This effectiveness is the reason that the Hussites established the
Kingdom of God on Earth which lasted to the present day in Bohemia and
Moravia.  Or did it?

Aryk
From: nusbache@epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: On Fealty
Organization: University of Toronto - Office of the Provost
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1992 16:16:41 GMT

Joe Bethancourt's essay on fealty brought a question to mind:

In the early part of your essay, you described historical vassals swearing
fealty to the Crown.

Is that indeed the case, or was the oath of fealty to a king generally
considered to be to the king personally in his capacity as sovereign?

The question of when "the Crown" came to exist as an institution is a dicey
one.  Here is a place where some light might be thrown on the idea.

Where's Hossein, anyway?

Aryk

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Subject: Re: Primitive FireArms
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 23:48:26 GMT

ae766@yfn.ysu.edu (David Sanders) writes:

>Greetings to all, from Vajk!

	And greetings in return!

>I live in a town of about 96,000.  Over the last three years, we
>have had more than 50 homicides per year, including one year
>with about 70 (we had had only 19 the year before).

	Out of curiousity, how many of these deaths were caused
by accidental discharge of the weapon?  In the Society, that is
the only way I can see one gentle actually killing another, it
being an honest mistake or accident.  I suggest the crime rate of
your city is not very applicable to weapons in the SCA.

>Think of this:  If 1 in 2000 SCA-folk were murdered each year,
>how many would that be?   An alarming number, but such a rate
>occurs here.  To bring a gun, openly, to an SCA event here
>would be to invite repression of the SCA for years to come.
>As if we didn't have enough troubles already.  And the SCA
>certainly has its share of loonies, or perhaps more than its
>share.

	I suggest that not only are we non-violent loonies, or
at least quite capable of controlling our violent outbursts,
but that one might do well to realize that nobody has yet died
at Pensic.  When one considers the rate of heart attacks the
general population has, then contrasts that to the twenty years
of camping for a week without quick access to medical
facilities we have, perhaps the SCA has been quite lucky so far.
The first time somebody dies, either in their sleep, through
a heart attack, burst appendix, or alcohol poisoning, what will
the repurcussions be?  Our fighting is hazardous enough, let
alone the inherent hazards of just living.  I do not think the
risks are any greater with firearms in use than without,
providing proper care is taken in their handling.

>I do agree that local conditions should play a large part
>in the decision to allow/ban firearms at a particular event.

	Indeed.  This is where the "safety first" aspect of the
Society must start.  Activities improper for a certain area
should *never* be allowed, no matter the Kingdom rules.

< Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu viking@iastate.edu >
<  ISU only censors what I read, not what I say.  Don't blame them.  >
<  "Are you *SURE* he's worth a Harley-Davidson?" -- my grandmother  >
< to my girlfriend, about me.  "I'd better not say" -- my girlfriend >
From: kleber@husc11.harvard.edu (Gwydden)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Heraldic questions...
Date: 28 Dec 92 01:06:20 GMT

Tadhg answered a bunch of my questions...

>  G>                                                         [...] so if the
>  G> rules for heraldry change, then people will conform to the new rules, 
>  G> and that will change what the SCA's heraldic style looks like.  Is
>  G> there anything wrong with that?
>
>     *sigh* Yeah. It Ain't Period to change things every other week.
>
>     Three times does not a tradition make except in the rootless plastic
>     make-believe modern world (of which the SCA is far too typical an
>     example).

Ah, I understand now.  The nice thing about the system as it stands
(well, I suppse it's not the system, more like the status quo) is that
it leaves room for improvement: there are things the SCA simply does
not do well, and if traditions gain that much inertial power, then the
bad habits become ever harder to break.  The hope, at least in my
mind, is that the things we do well, we do because we know enough to,
so they're unlikely to change for the worse, and the things we do out
of ignorance are the ones that we can improve on as we learn more.  I
suppose the fact that I'm relatively young in the SCA makes me more
optimistic about the possibilities of the SCA maturing; it makes me
more willing to provide ways for it to improve on its "youth".

[...]
>     I recommend to your attention a very good (and thick) book, *La
>     Tradition et Les Traditions" by Yves Congar, OP (available in English
>     translation for the culturally challenged). Ignore the theological
>     essay if you wish (although it would profit much to read it); the
>     historical essay alone is well worth digesting.

I've read a collection of essays edited by Martin Redfern (?),
but not this.  Is Congar still alive, incidentally?  She must be in
her eighties or nineties by now...

[...]
>  G> Does that mean you think the SCA should intentionally steer its own 
>  G> heraldic style to be like this, or that's just where your
>  G> aesthetic ideals lie?
>
>     Both. As anyone in the College of Arms can tell you, the congruence
>     between my aesthetic ideals and how God intended things to be
>     asymptotically approaches identity. 8-)

...and I'm sure I don't need to mention that the society is far too
full of the rugged individualist type for this kind of forced
restriction to ever gain widespread support, regardless of whether it
would be good or bad.  I am impressed that you credit God with such
good aesthetics, though... :-)

--Gwydden Lawen                           I don't have an overactive
  Borough of Duncharloch, Carolingia      imagination... I have an
  kleber@husc.harvard.edu                 underactive reality...  --EG
From: Suze.Hammond@f56.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Suze Hammond)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Fighting for Crown..Another question.
Date: 1 Jan 93 05:54:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: therose.726005747.AA00000


 AN> From: nusbache@epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher)
 AN> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

 AN> Suggestion:
 AN> 
 AN> How about a two-stream royalty in which one couple are chosen by
 AN> combat and the other ... by a majority vote of the non-fighting
 AN> peerage.  They would share power between them, but each could have
 AN> it's own officers and bureaucracy.  Fealty could still be sworn to the
 AN> corporate person of "the Crown" which would then encompass all four
 AN> sovereigns and consorts.  They could be chosen at opposing points of
 AN> the year, thus eliminating the dangerous instability of the changeover
 AN> period...

 AN> A little loopy in the morning

Not all that "loopy". This is very reminiscent of the late Roman Empire, 
where Augustus and Ceasar were seperated as two positions. (And with the 
East-west split, that meant the "body of the Emperor" consisted of four 
different men...) Unfortunately, it didn't work out very well...

(I think some of the early Germanic kingdoms did something similar ??)

Moreach




 
... If some people think reality is a bitch, who am I to disagree?
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 16:48:14 EST
From: Therion <HZS@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: On the nature of armor and too light blows

Palymar (hi guy!) says:

>BTW if you are really interested in kicking, shield bashing,
>grappling, striking from behind and all those other *real* combat
>tactics, there is a group out this direction call the Tuchux.  Maybe
>you should look them up.

'Tis true. But Tuchuck combat isn't inherently any more dangerous than our way
of doing things. The main rule of Tuchuck combat is:

                      Kill people, but don't hurt them.

It's kind of fun. Most of the time. :)
                                             Therion
 //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
     internet:        ||    Therion Calgate     || Hey, Conan! I know you're
 hzs@psuvm.psu.edu    || Mountain Confederation || lurking out there. Why don't
                      ||        Warlord         || *you* speak up once in a
   I said what?       ||   of House Decadence   || while?
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
From: sinister@ac.dal.ca
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Fighting in crown: a thought & another thought
Date: 22 Dec 92 15:55:57 -0400
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

In article <1992Dec22.033438.24728@news.unomaha.edu>, dburgdor@cwis.unomaha.edu (Darryl Burgdorf) writes:
> ..........  And I will freely agree that someone
> who fights in a Crown Tournament *only* for the sake of the glory of the
> tournament itself is probably missing the whole point.
> 
> But please explain the difference between someone who fights to put himself
> and his inspiration on the throne and someone who fights to put the *couple*
> who inspire him on the throne.  The latter may well be a gentle who has no
> aspirations to power, or simply someone who feels those for whom he fights
> are more suited to it than he is himself; in either case, though, he is 
> still fighting for someone, and is still fighting with the intention of
> winning, because of the inspiration of those for whom he fights.

	My observation is that, in fact, the noble fighter who enters the list
to put the Crown on the heads of a couple who inspire him as opposed to
another gentle and their own might be a bit closer to "the point".  They are
fighting completely for the honor and glory of the couple, with zero 
benifit to themselves.  
 
> 	In service to Calontir, the Society, and the Dream,
> 
> 		Ld Elwyn of Thornbury
> 

	In Faith and Service this festive season,
		Cosmano Piero Michelotto da Roma

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: On Fealty
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 19:56:22 GMT

Ioseph of Locksley wrote:
  The ever beautiful Dorothea asked about fealty:

             THE FEUDAL CONTRACT: ON FEALTY IN THE SCA

Plus countless large amounts of information.

I do not have quite the reaction Sheik Hossein did (neither do
I have his impeccable credentials as a mundane expert on the topic,
Nonetheless, I found a number of problems with this article.

I have only begun to scratch the surface of readings about fealty,
obligations, law and other relationships within our period, but I
do not see the clear cut relationship between occasional period
terms and customs, and the SCA.

Perhaps those relationships could be made clearer by comparing them
to the fealty and homage relations of a particular time or place,
but not to the sweep of all of our period.

Further, I found many of the discussions of SCA custom to have the
opposite problem: they are firmly rooted in time and place to
Ioseph's experiences with Atenveldt (current) and the West (historic),
with little relevance to my few years experience in the East, for
example.

I think the only fair generalization that can be made, is that few
SCA people understand fealty, and that SCA fealty has little medieval
precedent.  I thought it would be a simple thing to understand, and
the tar baby caught me...  know all I know is how hard it is to describe.
Comparing SCA Fealty with period terms is playing with a loaded gun,
since it can lead people to believe that SCA Fealty is period in
nature.  It surely isn't very often, especially the types of relationships
mandated in Corpora.

I also feel obliged to point out that Corpora does not require more than
Knights to swear fealty during their investiture.  Corpora does not
require maintenance of that Fealty Oath in following Coronations, neither
does it prevent anyone at all from swearing fealty. It certainly does not
require landed barons or baronesses to swear any oath at all. Also, most
kingdoms do not have standard oaths.

I'd be happy to discuss the various kinds of "SCA Fealty" relationships
that I have seen, or participated in.  Some of them even are remotely
like relationships in period...  and some are not.

	Tibor (I hate to be a spoilsport on matters of opinion)
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
[I'm just showin' you my opinions: this ain't a gift]
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: nusbache@epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: Fighting in crown: a thought
Organization: University of Toronto - Office of the Provost
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 19:25:00 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.104249.3694@doug.cae.wisc.edu> pavao@cae.wisc.edu (Pavao Aaron) writes:


>I, myself, aspire to fight in Crown someday and if (on the off-chance) I win,
>I have no desire to become king.

So why do you aspire to fight in Crown?

Aryk

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: pavao@cae.wisc.edu (Pavao Aaron)
Subject: Re: Fighting in crown: a thought
Organization: U of Wisconsin-Madison College of Engineering
Date: 21 Dec 92 10:42:48 CST

Greetings from Jararvellir!

	I don't think it should be a problem to fight in Crown for a couple. 
I, myself, aspire to fight in Crown someday and if (on the off-chance) I win,
I have no desire to become king.  Such "couple-championing" would be an 
excellent alternative for those who like to fight, but not rule.

-> Shandler

SCA: Chandler (Shandler) Greyfeathre
MKA: Aaron Pavao
NET: pavao@cae.wisc.edu
"Gee, I feel so guilty every time I post to a newsgroup..."
From: badorion@watyew.uwaterloo.ca (Brian A. Dorion)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Sca geography (was: thro
Date: 21 Dec 92 17:27:18 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo

In article <724886787.AA00000@blkcat.UUCP> Riki.Beth.Stein@f906.n142.z1.fidonet.org (Riki Beth Stein) writes:
>And then Jingle Bells, Mortar Shel said...
> JBMS> When I was talking with some friends in the SCA I mentioned that 
> JBMS> I'd like to form a Roman Cohort or a Highland Regiment.  They pointed
> JBMS> out  that those two organizations were outside the period, one a few
> JBMS> hundred  years before, the second a hundred years after.  I had not
> JBMS> been aware of  the exact period being examined but when I was made
> JBMS> aware, I changed my  mind.  I currently have no idea what kind of unit
> JBMS> to form, but I am bending  my energies to working in period.
>
>How about Italian condottiere?  Or Swiss pikemen? 
>
>-Ariane Baccadoro, Venetian expatriate residing in Switzerland
>
>
>... Bushido: The way of the shrubbery!
>___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10
>

Fie!  Raise a troop of real soldiers...German Landsknects!!!!

 
Brian Dorion			Herr Konrad Matthias Jaeger
Kitchener, Ontario		Bryniau Tywynnog, Ealdormere
Canada				MK
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Heraldic questions... 
From: bloodthorn@sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Jennifer Geard)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 22:18:03 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Lethargy Inc.

From Pagan le Chaunster, Greetings!

  > Arval wrote:
  >   device to be an improper act, much moreso than wearing inauthentic garb.
  >   The College of Arms, an office of the corporation, does claim that
  >   unregistered armory should not be displayed at events (though it lacks the
  >   authority to back up that claim).

Tibor responded:
  > Although, judging from the last Board Meeting, and the Minutes of that
  > meeting, it may not be long before Lord Laurel requests that authority.

<muffled groan>

Having only recently discovered that I have this right (coming from an 
isolated branch where the previous herald did indeed remove unregistered 
banners) I'm now rather protective of it.  

As one example:  at the moment a character from the area around Hungary can 
at least display appropriate arms, even if the majority of Hungarian arms 
cannot be registered with the SCA (they were very big on blue or red fields 
with green tripartite hillocky things in base:  stand a beast or a castle on 
the hillock and you're set).  A decision to restrict this practice would be 
grossly unfair and counter to the spirit of recreation which we claim as a 
guiding impulse. 

Pagan le Chaunster
Slowly confirming the belief that unofficial events are far less stressful.
________________________________________________________________________ 
Jennifer Geard                         bloodthorn@sloth.equinox.gen.nz 
Christchurch, New Zealand