From: ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Rich men and Heaven
Date: 8 Oct 92 01:44:45 GMT
Followup-To: talk.religion.misc
Organization: Apple

In article <70164@hydra.gatech.EDU>, rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard
Pitts) wrote:
> |>      PARABLE, BECAUSE HE WAS NEAR JERUSALEM AND THE PEOPLE THOUGHT THAT THE
> |>      KINGDOM OF GOD WAS GOING TO APPEAR AT ONCE.
> |>    Luke 19:12   He said: "A man of noble birth went to a distant country to
> |>      have himself appointed king and then to return.
> |>    Luke 19:13   So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas.
> |>      'Put this money to work,' he said, 'UNTIL I COME BACK.'
> |
> |Sigh, speaking about filters in brains. The text above clearly states
> |that a man of noble birth told his servants that he would get back. 
> 
> Sigh, speaking about not seeing the words "UNTIL I COME BACK".

Richard, I'm really curious to know how you think. English is not my
main language, however the statement says: 
 He said: "A man of noble birth went to a distant country to
 have himself appointed king and then to return.
So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas.
'Put this money to work,' he said, 'UNTIL I COME BACK.'

It refers to this man of noble birth. NOWHERE does it mention the
word Jesus. If this was the case, the last sentence would say,
'Put this money to work, he said, 'Until Jesus comes back'. Clearly
the 'I' refers to the noble man. Anything else is pure speculation
that Jesus would not like to happen.

> Well I guess this Jesus was is proclaimed to be God in human flesh and
> who was declared Lord and Christ at his physical birth couldn't in no
> way be construed to be a noble man, huh?

This is not stated in the Bible. Could we please use the Bible instead
of private speculation, it would help a lot if we used a reference
instead of relying on outside speculation that may or may not be true,
thanks? I think we both agree that the Bible should contain the truth,
and not private speculation.
 
> |you need a lot of faith to make the direct connection. Note that there
> |are people out there that are not that keen to make such connections
> |automatically.
> 
> One gains salvation only by faith.  One needs to understand who the 
> Bible proclaims Jesus to be (God in the form of human flesh) to see 
> the connection.  However, Jesus did tell us that he spoke in parables
> to those outside the kingdom - Paul told us that things of spiritual
> nature are to be only understood by those with the spirit.  

So faith implies good imagination, eh? Maybe I'm a closet Christian,
I do enjoy fantasy.
 
> |And this is the dilemma! Certain Christians assume that the Kingdom
> |of Heaven happened long time ago, or it's part of the inner revelation.
> 
> Could you give some specifics on these 'certain Christians' that assume
> the Kingdom happened along time ago?  Remember Paul in 2 Thess 2 tells
> us that the Day of the Lord and our gathering to him has not happened and
> will not happen until the rebellion and the rise of the one who claims
> to be God.  This one will be other thrown by Christ at His return.  
> The one who claims to be God will be accompanied by signs and wonders.
> Jesus told us that there was much to occur before his return.

The original Christians, that waited for the appearance of Jesus
and the final days 'during their lifetime'. It didn't happen, and
it was a big blow for the original Christian church. 
 
> |However they can't explain the missing signs Jesus told his disciples,
> |neither that all this would happen during the lifetime of the disciples.
> 
> Oh, maybe this group is wrong, huh?  The only clear reference to the life
> time of people hearing Jesus is recorded in Matthew 16 and Peter tells
> us that he say Jesus in His glory on the mountain (Matthew 17 and 
> 2 Peter 1:17-18).  The generation that Jesus mentioned in Matthew 24 was
> not clarified to be that of the disciples.  I think it is understood
> to be future, since it ended the whole series of events that will happen
> before the return of Christ.  Jesus even told us that when you see these
> things happen, you know the Kingdom of God is near.

It seems I'm telling a Christian biblical cites, and he does not want
to hear them, neither understand them. You know, it's interesting why
you always want to avoid to take responsibility of Jesus' words that
things would happen during the lifetime of the disciples. Either those
events happened, speaking from historical evidence those didn't happen,
and the predictions Jesus did were false. 

Anyway, I think we have a good picture of a case where things in the 
Bible are false, but that does not stop people believing in the
statements. Reminds me of why people had ugly jeans and
danced in discos in the seventies :-).

Cheers,
Kent

	Faith is often the boast of the man who is too lazy to	investigate. -F.M.
Knowles
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