HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: AS.AAM@forsythe.stanford.edu (Astrid Mustard)
Subject: Re: Who cares
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 15:05:34 GMT

In article <12448@inews.intel.com>,
pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey) writes:
>
>Yeah, I think it does. I don't really know. Let's face it, I can go anywhere
>I want whenever I want by myself. Sure, I've gotten into some situations that
>I was lucky to get out of without serious injury, at least nothing a few
>stitches wouldn't heal. But I've never really had to worry about rape. Think
>about it, I'm sure it's not real pleasant for a man either. And think about
>if you got rapped and everyone found out about it. Brings new meaning to the
>words dissed and based. But now I live in the suburbs, there's hardly any
>crime here ... for me. But there still is for women. I think if I was a women,
>I'd always be looking back over my shoulder and being careful about elavators
>and stairwells and parking lots at night. To tell you the truth, if I were a
>woman, I'd have a conceiled gun on me at all times - but then I'm a man. Guns
>are dangerous, could just as easily shoot yourself, depends on the ratio of
>physical strength. That ratio is not so good when you're talking the average
>woman versus the average man. So probably the only solution is to forget the
>gun and instead always watch your back, like a gangstar or criminal and play
>your cards right and hope someone doesn't call your bluff. And hope you're
>always wearing the right colors and got the right signs. And always watch the
>eyes, but don't make eye contact. And watch out for those invisible boundaries
>you're not supposed to cross, check out the real estate.
>

Paul,

That's a fairly accurate description.
From: rna@crystal.med.umn.edu (Ryan Alexander (BMEC))
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Anger
Date: 23 Jul 92 13:25:57 GMT
Distribution: all
Organization: University of Minnesota


	Okay, I believe that we have now determined that everyone here has an
opinion.
	Congratulations.

	Janis, the person guilty of the most personal, degrading, and
insulting attacks is you.  You are the one displaying oppressive behavior in 
this VR.  Please look back at your posts and look at some of the things
you've called other people.  Most of them have been both racist and sexist,
And the on;y justification you've given is that it was done to you first.

	You're pissed, who-P-ding.

	Who isn't?


|RNA (DNA's bad-ass sidekick)   / "Decency?!  I am a pirate!
|Internet: rna@ epx.cis.umn.edu/       I don't _do_ 'decency'!"
|			      /           - Don Carnage
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: elle@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Ellen Keyne Seebacher)
Subject: Re: eating humanely
Reply-To: elle@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 21:37:40 GMT

"skyler bode" <skyler.bode@execnet.com> writes:
>With all the discussion going on about Environmental Damage of Factory
>Food Production ... How do I find out what food suppliers (if any
>mainstream ones, that is) are using "humane" farming methods? ...
>
>I can't seem to find an alt.vegetarian or suchlike group...

From "List of Active Newsgroups" in news.announce.newusers (if your
news admin isn't carrying the group, *complain*):

  rec.food.veg            Vegetarians.
  sci.environment         Discussions about the environment and ecology.
  talk.environment        Discussion the state of the environment & what to do.
  talk.politics.animals   The use and/or abuse of animals.

Incidentally, "Distribution: alt" is meaningless, and keeps your article 
from reaching sites (including, soon, this one) which explicitly limit
incoming distributions.  For more information, see news.announce.newusers.

--
Ellen Keyne Seebacher            news@uchinews.uchicago.edu
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Movies with pagan themes
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 21 Jul 92 23:45:02 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.101826.41775@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> kumagic@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (Stephen R. Figgins) writes:
>How about "Bell Book and Candle."  It has a kind of fanciful view of
>witches as immortals who cannot cry.  It also is little mermaidish.  A
>witch gives up her powers for the love of a mortal, played by Jimmy
>Stewart.  
>
>This movie has its humerous points.
>

While the last part of Fantasia isn't exactly pagan (the Ave Maria) the
bit to the Pastorale isn't exactly mainstream.  If I remember rightly
(I've been trying to pin down this definitely for months), it ends with
the "camera" panning up into the night sky, where the Moon becomes a
drawn longbow held by the goddess Artemis.  (If I messed up that
attribution, someone puh-LEEZE clear it up!)

Even the part with the Ave Maria and Night on Bald Mountain are good for
the music.  (Even though it's a little interesting how the cute little
centaurs don't have nipples and the evil ghosts and spirits in the bit
about Bald Mountain do . . . )

Blessings,
Janis


Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: Someting ailsa brought up (was Re: Who cares) 
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 07:44:57 GMT


Since no male has spoken to this yet (at least that has reached my site), I
will offer my perspective.  

Butch and femme can be a running joke on cultural sterotypes.  When I can't 
open a jar, I will hand it to someone saying, "Here, you play the butch."
Sometimes that person is male, sometimes female.  Butch/femme has nothing to
do with who I sleep with, what I do with those persons, or any of those 
obvious things.  I use it to laugh off the sometimes uncomfortable fact that,
being 5'11" and 115 lbs., I am not very strong, especially in the upper body.

              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
                               Br'anArthur

Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan

> / hpcc01:alt.pagan / pcorless@cisco.com (Peter Corless) /  8:05 pm  Jul 21, 1992 /
> I am surprised to hear all of the pagans around here missing the origin
> of the "DD cup" woman...
> 
> What about the Venus de Willandorff (sp?) and all of the other giant-breasted 
> Mother Goddess images of the Neolithic? Giant breasts are the symbol of
> motherhood and plenty. 

These ample breasted goddess images also have ample hips, stomachs and 
thighs.

The current ideal of beauty for women call for ample breasts with a
small waist, flat stomachs, slender (but definite!) hips, and skinny legs.
This ideal is a distortion of female body shape.  Almost all women with 
ample breasts have ample everything else too.


> Please... THINK about the origins of these stereotypes! Are they bad? Are
> they good? Is is all for the best natural selection, or have we evolved past
> such primitive needs...All of this is YOUR interpretation. You can be as
> militant or as moderate as you like, but let's put some thought into the
> discussion before we add our acid.

The "DD cup" women being complained about here in alt.pagan is the 
stereotyped image presented above, not the goddess image.  If the "DD cup" 
cartoon character in the Cool World movie had been goddess shaped (ample 
everywhere), this whole thread wouldn't have started. 


> ..For my own part, I think that having distinctly masculine and feminine
> ideals of beauty and sexuality are good*. However, the modern media

Given that the current "female ideal" is such a distortion of natural shape,
I find it harmful to myself and other women I know.  

Rather than go into "I know a women who...", I'll use myself as an example.
I have a hard time accepting my body as beautiful.  It sure doesn't fit 
any of the images of women I see that are called beautiful by our society.  
My figure is 36-29-40, and I'm still trying to lose weight to be happy 
with myself.  Even though I try to tell myself that I don't have to 
have 36-24-36 (oops, nowdays I think that it's 38-24-35) measurements to 
have a beautiful body, I have real trouble in accepting it.  

I would prefer to see a society where all different shapes of women were
admired for their natural qualities:  slender women with small breasts
admired for their sleekness, ample women with large breasts admired
for their fullness, and us average sized ones admired because of
our minds :-)   (just kidding - admired because we're "just right").


Thank goodness for supportive S.O.'s, huh Janis?

Lynne
-----------
lynne@hpnst.mayfield.hp.com
From: pcorless@cisco.com (Peter Corless)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Question about St. George the Dragon Killer Story
Date: 22 Jul 92 01:12:18 GMT
Reply-To: pcorless@cisco.com (Peter Corless)
Organization: Computer Science Lab, SRI International
X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message are those of an
	      individual at SRI International, and do not necessarily
	      reflect those of the company.

From: canders@isr.harvard.edu (Carl E. Anderson)
Subject: Re: Question about St. George the Dragon Killer Story
> 	Eh?  Who said that about dragons?  I've heard the line about
> dragons representing greed, especially in Beowulf, but not this
> "manipulated mass" ...
> 	Speaking as a Folklore & Mythology major (Medieval Scandinavian &
> Celtic) I feel pretty confident in saying that dragons/serpents in
> Indo-European (and usually Semitic) mythos represent Primal Chaos and that
> sort of thing which is smitten by a Hero figure (Thor, Indra, Yahweh, etc.)
> to bring about the ordering of the universe as we know it.  St. George and
> Sigurd are reflections of this in legend (as opposed to myth).

From China to the British Isles, serpents have also been used as symbols of
knowledge, wisdom, and fertility. Consider the wise serpent in Kipling's
"Jungle Book" (the *book*, not the Disney movie), which is a modern decendent
for such Indo-European myths. Also note the artifacts showing serpents in
the hands of priests and benificent gods in Minoan, Greek, and even Celtic
artwork. Chinese dragons are powerful and positive symbols of energy and
wisdom.

There are also darker manifestations of the serpent, such as the Nordic
Midgard Serpent, the Judeo-Christian Serpent/Devil, etc. They are usually
a darker mirror of the same properties: power, energy and ingenuity (albeit
chaotic and destructive energy and thought).

Usually the serpent has a better time of it in religions/societies that are
more balanced in their masculine and feminine spheres. For instance, a
greater balance of the feminine/masculine can be seen in Indian, Chinese,
pre-Christian Celtic and Minoan cultures. Whereas the Nordic and Judeo-
Christian cultures are more heavily patriarchal.

Sometimes, therefore, the killing of the serpent can be viewed as a defeat
of earlier beliefs, cultures or ideologies. For example, serpents were
unknown even before St. Patrick set foot in Ireland, but Druidism was well-
established. After Patrick's proselytizing, however, the monopoly of the
Druids was shattered. The serpents, therefore, are not literally snakes,
but represent the Serpents/Devils in the form of the Druids, who the
Christian Doctors of the Church saw as tempters of the faithful and keepers
of forbidden knowledge.

Any other thoughts?

-Pete.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: alt.wicca, anyone?
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 10:29:00 -0700

In a message dated 23 Jul 92  17:20:11, Susan Harwood Kaczmarczik wrote:

 SH> So I guess I want to know whose definition of Wicca will be used in the
 SH> naming of this newsgroup, if indeed it gets off the ground.

I have to agree.  The recent brouhaha about the UFP means we should probably
leave well enough alone.  This group isn't too busy to meet the needs of the
proposed *[.*].wicca group, and it works.  (Of course since I can only get to
this newsgroup via the much-maligned FidoNet, I'm something of a half-member,
and probably shouldn't be voicing opinions on this sort of thing.)
From: krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: stereotypes - and a request
Date: 27 Jul 92 22:07:31 GMT
Organization: The Meltdown - A Team Star BBS

In article <ROCKWELL.92Jul26205346@socrates.umd.edu>, rockwell@socrates.umd.edu (Raul Deluth Miller-Rockwell) writes:
>Krikket [I think]:
>   >>>>      "Well, we don't mind _all_ blacks, just the ones we know
>   >>>>      about."

Hmmm...  It must be my turn to deny saying this quote, so : I DENY SAYING
THIS!  (And will the person who did post this, please come forth so the
record may be set streight?)  :)

>Janis Cortese:
>   >If you're this incapable of understanding the distinction between
>   >oppressor and oppressed, you have my pity.
>
>Elton Wildermuth:
>   Janis, I've said this to you before, both publicly and in email,
>   but perhaps not bluntly enough; so here I go again: YOU are the
>   source of most of the "oppression" that happens to you.
>
>Ahem.
>
>What does this statement about responsibility have to do with either
>of the preceeding statements?  Maybe if it's yelled loud enough, about
>how Janis is responsible, she'll stop exercising that responsibility?
>
>Yes, it's true that "god-like individuals" can choose their own
>emotional response to most any situation.  Firstly, that has little or
>no bearing on people who have not chosen this path.  Secondly, this
>sort of capability -- real or imagined -- should not be considered an
>excuse to stuff your own emotions onto someone else.
>
>If someone posts to stating "all oppression I've experienced was
>self-inflicted," that can be a liberating post.  But the above post
>made no such statement and instead was made in opposition.

Ahhh...  But the statement "all opression I've experienced was self-
inflicted" is also highly innacurate.  (Well, usually!)  I remember being
fired from a H.S. because <A> I would listen to the students if they should
need to talk about home abuse, before refering them to the shool psych
(Yes, I provide a shoulder to lean on when asked) and <B> I didn't hide the
fact that I was "Wiccan" (actually I'm not a true Wiccan, and consider myself
to be "Pagan", but being in the Bible Capitol of America (Which, admittantly
is fairly tolerant)) but refused to teach about the religion...  I told the
kids, if they wanted to know more, look it up, I'm not allowed to teach ANY
religion, only to state the name of what I beleive.  No explinations
permitted.)

But, on the other-hand, some of it has come from inside my own mind.  And I
did get over that (Or so I think...  It's always interesting to see what your
mind will throw at you when you least expect it...)

So I would have to say that it is perfectly valid to lay part of the blame
on oneself, and part of the blame elsewhere.

Krikket               ! krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us ! USnail:3 Danada Square E.
a.k.a Doug Krick      ! Team Star Charter Member   !        Suite 246
Data ph# 708/665-9732 ! #include<std.disclaimers>  !        Wheaton, Il 60187

 'If you are what you eat, then I'm Dead Meat'  -- Timbuk 3 "Grand 'ol Party"
            
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: alt.wicca, anyone?
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 07:35:36 GMT

amadeus@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Susan Harwood Kaczmarczik) writes:


>On the subject of creating an alt.wicca newsgroup, I would ask just
>what topic(s) do we want to see here?  Is the idea to be more specific
>than paganism?  To just include Wicca in all its various forms, but
>omit that which is not Wiccan?

>The reason I am asking, of course, is that I don't consider myself
>Wiccan (although many of you might consider me as such if I told you
>what I did and how I believed).  Wicca to me is a much more specific
>word than Witchcraft; I consider myself a Witch but not a Wiccan.

>So I guess I want to know whose definition of Wicca will be used inthe
>naming of this newsgroup, if indeed it gets off the ground.

Susan, I would always welcome you, but I would not consider your religion to
be part of the core subject material of the group.  I always appreciate it for
comparison and contrast however, and you are one of the few people who have
given me feedback on my Wiccan-specific posts.

I would want the group to focus on Wicca, but not to demand credentials, or
to refuse to allow anyone but a Wiccan-type Witch to post, if it did become
moderated.  (A sidenote, do you usually capitalise Witch?  I've only seen
Wiccan Witches capitalise it before.  Part of the stuff that ailsa and I have
been discussing.)

Do you think it would be more productive to make it soc.religion.witchcraft,
rather than s.r.wicca?  If so, how broadly would we define Witchcraft?  Would
we need to specify that we are talking about it in the context of religion,
not just magical power?  Would we define it by cultural lines?  I have been
working on an essay on the boundaries of Wicca, but I wouldn't know where to
begin bounding Witchcraft.  (The Wicca essay will be posted soon.)

              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
                               Br'anArthur

Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: aaldrich@geppetto.encore.com (Al Aldrich)
Subject: Re: Who cares
Organization: Encore Computer Corp.
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 12:48:58 GMT

tmhoff@oogoody.Corp.Sun.COM (Todd Hoff) writes:

I am hearing a lot of defensiveness about the injustice of being one of
the priveleged and getting blamed for it..so let me play a little
devil's advocate here..

:-)

>Here's a list of things I didn't do, don't support, yet still get blamed for 
>because of my race and gender:

>1. Slavery. I didn't do it.
>2. Kill the buffalo and break treaties with the indians. I didn't do it.

But what do you do to lift up the Native Americans now?

>3. Set up the patriarchy. I didn't do it.

But what do you do to promote egalitarianism now?

>4. Deny women the vote. I didn't do it.
>5. Oppress and descriminate against homosexuals. I didn't do it.

But what do you do to support gay rights now?

>6. Rape ot threaten women. I swear I didn't do it.

But what do you do to change men who do?


>There's a lot more I didn't do, but I'll stop here.

I think that Janis said it right the first time..Until men get out and
PUBLICLY declare that something is wrong and needs to be righted, we
will continue to have sexist advertising, rape, violence, and domination
as a norm in our world society. 

It's good that you do't/didn't do all of the above, but NOT doing is as
good as condoning in practice.

/al



-- 
Al Aldrich 		  | Fax: 797-5926	| `..give peas a chance..'
Ph: 305-797-2335	  |Product Operations	|    (Dinosaurs)
Inet: aaldrich@encore.com |Logistics Mgr.	|
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Who cares
Date: 22 Jul 92 17:00:45 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA

heimberg@pacific.mitre.org (Jeff Heimberger) writes:
: In article <12381@inews.intel.com> pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey) writes:
: >oppression exists. And the purpose of the SWM is to see the problems and
: >make corrections. After all if one is not free then the freedom of the rest
: >is threatened. You will agree that this is supposed to be a democracy for
: >all with equality of rights, justice and opertunity for all. In the final
: >analysis, we are all minorities. The minority of the individual.
: 
: Nitpick:  The US is a constitutional republic, not a true democracy, as
: I understand the distinction.

Correct. And neither have anything to do with equal rights. Democracy is
the right of the majority to run rough-shod over minorities. In other words,
it is the right to impose the will of the majority on everyone else. The
way our republic is run, as a representative government - allows the same
thing to occur. Except not, in some cases, a minority group is allowed to
impose their will on the majority.
		
Bill
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: egnr76@castle.ed.ac.uk (A Kashko)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: New group details and comments.
Date: 29 Jul 92 13:12:25 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <1992Jul29.000534.12509@u.washington.edu > mkkuhner@phylo.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner) writes:
 >I'm not sure the distaste I'm hearing for moderation is really
 >deserved.  It's possible to take a very restrained approach to 
 >moderation, and filter out only completely inappropriate articles
 >(blank, sent to the wrong newsgroup, included text but no new text,
 >requests for the FAQ, etc.)  This would still make it a moderated group,
 >technically, and eligable to be s.r.wicca.  There is no rule saying that
 >the moderation must be political or ruthless, just that the group must
 >be moderated.

	Good points.
 >
 >Most of the good moderators (my opinion) that I've met reject very few
 >articles, and mostly for reasons about which there would be little
 >debate.  (How useful is the fifth answer to a question like "What date
 >is Starwood?")  Certainly moderation can be used for censorship, but it
 >doesn't have to be.  And we would choose our own moderator, after all;
 >it's not like s/he'd be some kind of Usenet appointee.

	This is like saying that enlightened benevolent dictatorship is the 
best form of government. You can't guarantee the dictator remains either
enlightened or benevolent. Still, it would be nice to have someone delete
threads when they get more appropriate to other groups. 

	I guess its either unmoderated, and lots of traffic, or moderated,
with less traffic, and hopefully more manageable.  It all boils down to
the groups confidence in the moderator.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: roth@cactus.org (Mark Roth)
Subject: Re: Whats a male chauvinist pig?
Summary: about that joke....
Organization: Capital Area Central Texas UNIX Society, Austin, Tx
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 03:40:09 GMT

In article <memo.540309@cix.compulink.co.uk>, shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk (Leo Smith) writes:
> wce@hogbbs.scol.pa.us (Bill Eichman) writes..
> 
> >mongoose@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Conrad Leviston) writes:
> 
> >> : Pointless flotsam. Please take this kind of noise elsewhere.
> >>
> >> I laughed. Lighten up. |-)
> <> --
> 
I not only chuckled, it reminded me of a joke John Brunner told us years*
ago over a Chinese dinner (and which, when I first posted, went to /dev/null):

It was the year 1997, and the new revolutionary government of Brazil was in
the process of extending its new benifits to all its' citizens. Now it so
happened that about 20 years before, a group of extreme feminist seperatists
had gone out into the jungle to form their own society. They were gettin on
in years now, and the government sent someone out to tell them about the
new society. Unfortunately, it sent a man, and they sent the body back. Not
wishing to endanger anyone else, they found the oldest, most innocent looking
plane in their entire air force, which happened to be an old, Russian MIG.
They painted it white, and sent it out over the jungle (with, of course, a
man flying it). The women shot it down, just as he had begun to drop the
leaflets. 

In desperation, they turned to Ferdinand Feghoot (c), and asked
"WHY did they shoot down that innocent, unarmed plane?"

Feghoot replied, "It's obvious: you sent them those leaflets in a pale,
chauvinist MIG".

	ducking ....quack, quack, quack...

	mark  
From: Frank.Perricone@f814.n355.z1.therose.pdx.com (Frank Perricone)
Sender: postmaster@therose.pdx.com