HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Overthrow "THE MAN" symbolically, was (Who cares)
Date: 28 Jul 92 19:38:12 GMT

In article <krikket.5333@meltdown.chi.il.us> 
krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick) writes:
>Now personally, I am not ashamed of being a man.  As Dan said this weekend,
>"I don't feel a need to be identified as an exclusivist feminist."  (chuckle)
>I do not apologize for being male, nor do I feel that I need to reject my
>being male.  I am happy with who I am.
>But I will not "overthrow 'THE MAN'" in myself.  For I am happy being male.

YO YO YO! I fear that what we have here is a failure to communicate, gosh
darn it. Allow me to elucidate. Do you see the word symbolically in the
Subject line above? That word is word! Please notice that I capitolized
"THE MAN", as well as put quotes around it. Why? I was not advocating
castration or male denial. If you don't know, "THE MAN" is the symbol of
all oppression. Not to long ago, it was of course the slave master. We
don't have slave masters any more, but we still have a virtual "THE MAN"
hanging around and buggin' us. Now do you understand what I was saying?
"THE MAN" does not have to be male. I'm quite sure that even women have
aspects of "THE MAN" in them, for sure, for sure. You can certainly be happy 
and retain your maleness and still overthrow "THE MAN" in yourself. I know I 
will. And yet I will always be a full blood man, it's in the jeans, know what 
I'm sayin'? And I am not an "exclusivist feminist", I'm not even a feminist. I 
do not adhere to any labels, the only label I adhere to is myself, because 
I know I have that right. Sabe?
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Bran on vacation
Date: 22 Jul 92 03:35:14 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana



I will be gone to Illinois Yearly Meeting of the Religious Society of Friends
until Sun. afternoon.  Please do not feel neglected if I do not answer your
posts or mail before Mon.

Five days surrounded by nothing but a couple hundred Quakers and cornfields--
yea!  

              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
                               Br'anArthur

Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)
From: wmathews@ducvax.auburn.edu
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Druid request
Date: 28 Jul 92 17:37:08 GMT

John Writes:
>Are there any Druidic organizations out there?  I was wondering what
>a Druid would do in his daily rituals and what sort of things the
>religion requires of it's members.  I am just curious.
 
>Thanks,
 
>John Cairns
 
 
>*****************
>Pardon my ignorance.

There are several, but the two largest (that I know of) are the
Reformed Druids of North America (RDNA) and Ar n'Draiocht Fein
(which translates from Modern Irish to mean "Our Own Druidism").
I don't know much about RDNA, but I have been an on-again/off-again
member of ADF for about six years. ADF was founded by Isaac Bonewits,
whose book _Real Magic_ has recently gone back into print. 

The latest address I have for ADF (I'm off-again at the moment)
is this one:
ADF
PO Box 9398
Berkeley, CA 94709

Reformed Druids of North America
Bodfish
Box 142
Orinda, CA 94563
(please note that the RDNA address comes from Margot Adler's book
_Drawing Down the Moon_, so I'm not sure if it's still valid.

wendelin
wmathews@ducvax.auburn.edu
From: ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: the work "warlock"
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 14:08:41 EST
Organization: Ailanthus Project

jblain@ac.dal.ca writes:

> In article <3-PCNews-124beta@astral.scvl.ca.us>, highmage@astral.scvl.ca.us (
> > ----
> > ===========================================================================
> > Steve Schwartz                             Address: 245-M Mt. Hermon Road #
> > highmage@astral.scvl.ca.us                          Scotts Valley, CA 95066
> > ===========================================================================
> --
>
>       Jenny           Jblain @ ac.dal.ca
> __________________________________________________________________________
>       I was in many shapes before I was released:
>       .....
>       I was a path, I was an eagle, I was a coracle in seas;
>       I was a bubble in beer, I was a drop in a shower;
>       I was a sword in hand, I was a shield in battle.
>       I was a string in a harp enchanted nine years, in the water as foam;
>       I was a spark in fire, I was wood in a bonfire;
>       I am not one who does not sing; I have sung since I was small.
>
>                                               [from The Book of Taliesin]

um, people?  could we not include other people's .sigs in followups?  this is a
full page of nothign but .sig here!  once we add my .sig at the end, and if
ayone follows this up and leaves mine in and adds THEIRS...  well, you can see
where this would lead...

                                               -ailsa

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
     ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com                   ________
"If it has tires or testicles,             Silence \      / Action
 you're going to have trouble                 =     \    /    =
 with it."                                  Death    \  /    Life
     -Ohio state Senator Linda Furney                 \/
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: pst@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Peter Stephen Thomas Iii)
Subject: Re: >suggestion<
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 13:18:21 GMT

In article <6kiPoB1w164w@ailanth.UUCP> ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy) writes:
>ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:
>> "pagan" means anyone who is of any of the various pagan religions and
>> philosophies
>> can "Pagan" mean a person who identifies hir religion or philosophy with
>> neopaganism, but who does not identify with any specific pagan religion?
>> 
>> Would this help the situation?
>> 
>well, that works for me, anyway.  how about all you other capitol p 
>pagans?  sound good?
>
>                                   -ailsa

Sounds great to me.  It's something I'll start doing NOW!

Peter Thomas

-- 
"I'll lose my beard when they shave it from my cold, dead face!"

Quote from the Razor's Anonymous Handbook
From: highmage@astral.scvl.ca.us (Steve Schwartz)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: the work "warlock"
Date: 27 Jul 92 20:26:43 GMT

jblain@ac.dal.ca ( @ Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada) once wrote....
>A small point of correction. Susan said "warlock" came from "Scots Gaelic".
>Warlock is Old English (and probably also Old Scots, which is NOT a Gaelic
>language.
>
>It certainly did mean "oathbreaker" or "traitor" and has little to
>do with male witches other than by (non-witches) association.
>
>A nasty word that was applied as a put down.

Actually, it was not a put down, it was a term used to describe those
people (usally men), who where not witches, but infiltrators of the
covens. These people would be sent to infiltrate and attempt to destroy
the group from the inside.

Bright Blessings,
Steve Schwartz


----
==============================================================================
Steve Schwartz                             Address: 245-M Mt. Hermon Road #119
highmage@astral.scvl.ca.us                          Scotts Valley, CA 95066
==============================================================================
From: shrdlu@willow.sdd.trw.com (Lynda L. True)
Subject: Re: Question about St. George the Dragon Killer Story
Organization: TRW Inc., Redondo Beach, CA
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 16:15:28 GMT

In article <B9a4NB1w164w@ailanth.UUCP> ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy) writes:
>mongoose@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Conrad Leviston) writes:
>
>> rburns@key.COM (Randy Burns) writes:
>> : [stuff about modern interpretation of good old george and the
>> : dragon deleted]

>> 	Why do dragons have this thing about young virgin maidens? Perhaps
>> this is better not contemplated.|-)
>
>well, this is assuming maleness and heterosexuality on the part of 
>dragons.  a straight female dragon might well prefer MALE virgins, as 
>might a gay male dragon.  *grin*
>
>what do they want with them?  would you believe companionship?  perhaps 
>dragons are so difficult to live with that the can't STAND each other...

OK, I can't stand it. The original meaning of maiden or virgin had
little to do with our modern notions. Any woman under a certain age
was a maiden (capable of pregnancy, but not yet pregnant, was enough
to qualify). The major factor here is youth; always a more interesting
sacrifice, since life was being cut short. Naturally dragons would
prefer something not tough and stringy; young females would qualify
better than village elders (of either sex). Besides, if you were a
village elder, you'd probably believe that someone other than yourself
would test better to a dragon :-).
-- 
Of course I don't SPEAK for TRW; they pay me to THINK for them.

shrdlu@rowan.sdd.trw.com (Lynda L. True)
Work Phone - (310) 812-1660 or (310) 812-1570
From: pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: stereotypes - and a request
Date: 23 Jul 92 20:38:08 GMT

pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey) writes:
I have never in my life been physically
threatened by women, I can not say the same of men. I've known some whom
others might call dikes or scooter trash or hoes or even the great Southern
expresion; cheap white trash. I guess I just don't hang out in the right ...

ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy) writes:
*excuse me* (insert appropriate icy tones here), but i AM a dyke, i call 
myself a dyke, other people call me a dyke too.  that does not make me a 
whore, scooter trash, cheap white trash, etc.  care to retract that or 
apologize for it?


----
I tried to word it to get across what I was saying. I guess I failed. I was
not calling anyone those names and I was not placing judgement on them and
I was not lumping them together in a group. But the fact remains that they
are powerful words, much like what we call "dirty" words, with lots of
different meanings for different people. I apologize for the feelings my
words gave you. I will consider retracting them if you think they are too
easy to misunderstand.
From: krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Who cares
Date: 24 Jul 92 11:39:26 GMT
Organization: The Meltdown - A Team Star BBS

In article <1992Jul23.133150.20866@news2.cis.umn.edu>, rna@crystal.med.umn.edu
(Ryan Alexander (BMEC)) writes:
>In article <V4gBoB5w164w@ailanth.UUCP> ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa
>N.T. Murphy) writes:
>>tmhoff@oogoody.Corp.Sun.COM (Todd Hoff) writes:
>>
>>> You bet I'm defensive. Are not blacks defensive about racism? Is it PC
>>> to blame people for things they didn't do? I thought the sins of the
>>> father thing went out 2000 years ago.

>>your analogy is fucked.  black people are not defensive about racism, as 
>>they do not practice it.  they defend themselves against racism, a 
>>completely different thing.

>       You are commiting a form or racism by stating that 'all blacks' do or
>do not do any particular action.  I *know* that it happens.    
>       What makes you think that any given race is incapeable of wrong 
>doing?

Hmmm...  No matter where you go, or who you deal with, there will always be
some good people, some bad people, and some who don't give two shits.

There are racist whites, there are non-racist whites, and some whites don't
give two-shits.

There are racist blacks, there are non-racist blacks, and some blacks don't
give two-shits.

Please keep this type of thing in mind when trying to overwork your
generalizations, people!

Krikket               ! krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us ! USnail:3 Danada Square E.
a.k.a Doug Krick      ! Team Star Charter Member   !        Suite 246
Data ph# 708/665-9732 ! #include<std.disclaimers>  !        Wheaton, Il 60187

 'If you are what you eat, then I'm Dead Meat'  -- Timbuk 3 "Grand 'ol Party"
From: bart@marzipan.mitre.org (Bartley C. Conrath)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Who cares
Date: 24 Jul 92 19:07:46 GMT
Organization: Mitre Corporation, McLean, VA

I read this post on soc.feminism and thought it 
was well-written and interesting.  The author gave
me permission to post it here.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Article 4522 of soc.feminism:
From: krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: UFP PaganVote - Raw Data
Date: 20 Jul 92 08:40:03 GMT
Organization: The Meltdown - A Team Star BBS

In article <5402@m1.cs.man.ac.uk>, lilleyc@cs.man.ac.uk (Chris Lilley) writes:
>About this United/Universal Federation of Pagans, has the Pagan Federation
>been informed?  ;-)
>
>I could dig out their address if you like. State which country.
>
><grin>
>
>Ant theres the Pagan Council of Elders, too, dont forget. Elected by
>mandate of , ooh, at least 10.
>
>The main problem with all embracing groups is when they make some statement
>prefaced by 'speaking on behalf of all pagans in the world,...'

No I didn't, but feel free to forward the data on to whomever you feel is approperiate...

Krikket               ! krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us ! USnail:3 Danada Square E.
a.k.a Doug Krick      ! Team Star Charter Member   !        Suite 246
Data ph# 708/665-9732 ! #include<std.disclaimers>  !        Wheaton, Il 60187

 'If you are what you eat, then I'm Dead Meat'  -- Timbuk 3 "Grand 'ol Party"
From: canders@isr.harvard.edu (Carl E. Anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Celtic Xianity <was: Re: Lithuania>
Date: 22 Jul 92 18:05:32 GMT
Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, MA

In article <711716686.F00008@therose.pdx.com> Frank.Perricone@f814.n355.z1.therose.pdx.com (Frank Perricone) writes:
>In a message dated 20 Jul 92  18:00:49, Carl E. Anderson wrote:
>
> CE> looking for more sources on Celtic Christianity and figure 
> CE> some people on
> CE> here might know something about it. 
>
>I have,but haven't read, _Celtic_Fire_ edited by Robert Van de Weyer, Doubleday
>Books 1990, ISBN 0-385-41958-9. 
>A brief bibliography lists about 25 other works.

	Thanks a lot.  I'll have to check it out.  Actually I have friend
who works in a bookstore who's looking for recommendations so I'll mention
it to her as well :)

Carl

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl Edlund Anderson	            	"Hefi ek ok aldri sva reitt vapn
canders@isr.harvard.edu			at manni at eigi hafi vidh kommit."
OR
anderso2@husc.harvard.edu			- Skarphedhinn Njalsson 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: stereotypes - and a request
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 15:12:23 GMT

pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey) writes:

>defenseless men? Can you name a revolution where the women were responsible 
>and took over power in a coup? Do you really think the oppressed want to
>turn the tables? They see how the system makes all sick, oppressed and
>oppressor alike, do you really think they want any of that?

Can you say Boudeccia(sp)?  I knew you could!  Of course, this was not some 
oppressed woman--this was a strong woman, a Celtic warrior queen.  Still, she 
was female and she led the revolt against the Roman legions.  Please, Paul--
pretty please-- take women down off that pedestal you put them on.  Women are 
not very different from men.  Most of the differences you believe in are only cultural.  Let women be human, not something to be worshipped.
Also, take the other oppressed people off their pedestal.  Their are a hell of
a lot of angry Black folk who would be very happy to turn the tables.  They
don't see the oppressor as just another poor victim of the tragedy.  Some of 
these folk want revenge!  (Please note, this is not a slam on Black people, in
general or in specific.  This is simply pointing out that people who are 
hurting are likely to be angry.)

              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
                               Br'anArthur

Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)
From: msmuga@vega.math.ualberta.ca (M. Smuga-Otto)
Subject: Re: Music, The Visit, All soul's night
Organization: University Of Alberta, Edmonton Canada
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 02:54:37 GMT

jblain@ac.dal.ca writes:

>Does anyone know anything about a piece of music called (I think) "The Visit"
>by Lori McKinnot (sp??). I was sitting here, reading alt.pagan, with the
>radio on, and suddenly I was listening to this wonderful piece of music . . .!
>It is about All Soul's Night . . .

>Help! Clarification! I want that music!
>-- 

>	Jenny		Jblain @ ac.dal.ca

I'm glad you've spotted such a good piece of music. It's by the canadian folk 
musician Loreena McKennit, and the album's called "The Visit".  It has a lot of other really incredible melodies on it. The same music goddess has released
"Paralell Dreams", and various other incredible items (available, incidentally
on cd's). It is my unqualified opinion that every good pagan should try out
her music.
Incidentally, I wonder if someone from the States could find out how well
Loreena McKennit is represented there...
						- Mike Smuga-Otto
						usenet newbie extraordinaire..
From: krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Who cares
Date: 23 Jul 92 21:26:31 GMT
Organization: The Meltdown - A Team Star BBS

In article <2A6DE08A.12002@noiro.acs.uci.edu>, cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis
Maria Cortese) writes:
>In article <1992Jul22.163150.23481@linus.mitre.org> heimberg@pacific.mitre.org (
>Jeff Heimberger) writes:

>>I'm truly sorry that you can't address the issues without attacking me
>>personally or name-calling.  That's the problem -- there is generally
>>little reasoned discussion about the issues, the solutions, etc.
>>People just square off, start name calling, get into throwing rocks,
>>and finally a riot ensues.

>Especially if someone starts it all by being such a thundering dickhead
>as you.  YOu ask why gays aren't pronmoting straight rights with a
>straight face and then pull back and act as if poor martyr you has been
>injured without cause?  Maybe you'd better get another brain cell. 

>>If you'd care to talk about this in a reasonable manner, please respond
>>again.  I refuse to add flames to your fire.

>Oh, isn't he just the most wonderful thing.  He starts off by calling
>for the formation of a NAAWP, then asks everyone else to be reasonable.

>Why, you poor misunderstood thing.

Yeeesh!  Janis, now it's YOUR turn to GET A GRIP ON REALITY!  GO back and actually READ Jeff's posts, without reading between the lines.  Take it at face value, without adding interpretations that aren't there.  You might be suprised at what you find.  He never called for the NAAWP, nor did he ever say that because it wasn't his fault, he wouldn't do anything about it.

He >DID< comment that there is no group like the NAAWP, and there is no need for one.  He >DID< comment that he did not *PERSONALLY* cause the injustices of the world, so don't blame him *PERSONALLY* - as a responce when attacked for being a white male who disagreed.  He did >NOT< say that he felt the injustices were correct, or that he would not help stop them.  He merely stated that he was not an activist.

Gish out crap where it's due, but there isn't a need to create it where it isn't.  Talk rationally and keep an open mind!

But then again, this is just my opnion and interpratation of what has happened so far.  I could be wrong.  But fighting behind loaded guns/words/whatever has never helped bring equality in the long run.  Remember, "Fighting for Peace is like Fucking for Virginity."  IMHO, if you can't keep an open mind, then you can't get anything accomplished.   That should ALWAYS be the first step of both parties...

Krikket               ! krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us ! USnail:3 Danada Square E.
a.k.a Doug Krick      ! Team Star Charter Member   !        Suite 246
Data ph# 708/665-9732 ! #include<std.disclaimers>  !        Wheaton, Il 60187

 'If you are what you eat, then I'm Dead Meat'  -- Timbuk 3 "Grand 'ol Party"
From: donal@brewich.hou.tx.us (Donal)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Firewalk
Date: 31 Jul 92 13:39:01 GMT
Organization: The Brewer's Witch BBS, HouTx, +1 713 272 7350

pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey) writes:

> In article <1992Jul30.170107.21017@burrhus.harvard.edu> 
> canders@isr.harvard.edu (Carl E. Anderson) writes:
> >	There is a quote from somewhere which says: "Any sufficiently
> >advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic".  And _vice_versa_ of
> >course ;)
> 
> Who said that? I seem to remember an association with the Atomic bomb for
> some reason. Was it Einstein or Oppenheimer? Don't tell me it was Sagan?

I am NOT sure, but I think it was either Asimov or Clark.

Blessed Be

--------------------
Donal, Sysop of The Brewer's Witch BBS -- +1 713 272 7350
(Internet) donal@brewich.UUCP  or  donal%brewich@lobster.hou.tx.us
(SCA) Ld. Donal Dubh, IC of Dun Bruddair, B of the Stargate, K of Ansteorra
From: pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: stereotypes - and a request
Date: 28 Jul 92 19:14:30 GMT
	<1992Jul22.152518.1706@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> <12422@inews.intel.com> 
	<1992Jul28.162734.3575@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>

In article <1992Jul28.162734.3575@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> 
radzy@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (Tim Radzykewycz) writes:
>Even though it's fiction, you might want to see "_The_Gods_Must_Be_Crazy_".
>You might learn that tribal people, too, have the same qualities of
>viciousness, greed, and so on.

That is straight fiction. It is the White man's view of the S.African
Bushmen. The truth is quite different and has been well documented in books
and periodicals. There is also a very good paper trail of what the meaning of
this movie and the sequel really is. You may want to investigate this, if
you would like to know the truth. The same thing has and is happening to
Native Americans. Natives and tribal people are being manipulated to conform
to a Disney version of the world. The truth is quite different from what one 
sees portrayed in the mainstream. Some people know this, some don't. Noble
Savages - NOT!

>Perhaps your mother never paddled you when you were a child, and
>your father took on that cursed responsibility.  If so, then that
>partly explains why you have this strange outlook on life.

I was never paddled as a child. I was never physically threatened by either
of my parents. I'm sorry to hear that your experience may have been different.
Perhaps that does explain my strange outlook on life.

>You qualify your statement to physical threatening.  The implication
>(whether you intended it or not) is that you consider physical violence
>to be violence, but you consider emotional and other kinds of violence
>to be non-violent.  My condolances.

Physical violence is the most violent of violence, of course. If we could
stop all physical violence, that would truly be a miracle. If we could have
a UN moratorium on physical violence  ... nah, I guess that would be too
much to ask for, wouldn't it? Or would you ask for more that that?

>> Berkeley must have really changed since I was up there last
>> month. Has the People's Republic been overrun by women already?

>What does this have to do with anything?

In previous posts, you seemed to be very concerned that women may in fact take
over the US and hold all positions of power. I find this highly unlikely.
Frankly, I'm much more concerned about crossing the street or the coming
earthquakes and fires. I would put the odds of women taking over all
positions of power as nil. How would they get elected to all these positions?
Do you really think all women are united against men? Do you really think 
they will pick up automatics and Patriot Missiles and threaten us poor 
defenseless men? Can you name a revolution where the women were responsible 
and took over power in a coup? Do you really think the oppressed want to
turn the tables? They see how the system makes all sick, oppressed and
oppressor alike, do you really think they want any of that?