From: REXLEX@linac.fnal.gov
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Defending the Faith through Fear (was Inerrancy)
Date: 10 Sep 92 05:44:34 GMT
Organization: FNAL

In article <Sep.1.22.50.25.1992.23561@athos.rutgers.edu> julian@sfu.ca (Julian
Shillcock) writes:
In article <Sep.9.03.31.00.1992.20890@athos.rutgers.edu> jte@psi.com (John
Eldredge) writes:
>I agree that faith does not require full understanding of all things.
>If that were true, we would all perish.  But this does not lead to the
>conclusion that we believe in "irrational" things.  That we are merely
>taking a [Kierkegardian] LEAP of faith.  Faith in what?  "Faith in faith,
>of course!"
>
Faith is never founded on faith.  Give me one example.  We do not get on an
airplane using faith in faith.  We do not walk out in front of a moving car at
a stop light using faith in faith, not do we walk the Xian life using faith in
faith.  Faith is always built upon knowledge.  Always.  The stronger our
knowledge base is, the stronger our faith is.  This does not marry to say that
if I have a PhD in theology that my faith is stronger than a lay persons who
reads his Bible daily and applies it daily to daily experiences.  That would be
a western concept of knowledge.  Rather, the closer we are to God (throught His
revelation) the stronger is our faith.

>Sure it does.  Truth about God is truth in a Person - but without revealed
>truth we know zero about Him.  

Not so, not so.  Rom's 1 tells us: "For since the creation of the world His
invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly
seen, being understood through what has been made, *so that they are without
excuse*."  This is a revelation that necessitates accountablity before a True
and Holy God. selah!

>God is not in our lab, 'tis true.  We do
>not understand the Almighty by *our* empiracal tests. 

This too is not true if you define empirical as relying on experience instead
of therory.   Though experiences can amount to less than a hill of beans, for
they can be falsified, they do validate His providential care to the believer
time and time again.  How often have we looked back over our lives and seen the
truth of Rom 8:28? That being said however, they are not a basis for salvation
but they may provided basis for knowing where we are in our sanctificational
journey. The "story" given to us in Daniel is a clear example of what I mean. 
Early on we see them faithful in the small things, i.e. food, but later we see
them faithful in the larger things, i.e. giving God the glory for revealed
truth; chosing to serve God rather than golden idols even if it meant being
killed.  Notice that the 3 young men "did not give a careful answer" to old
Neb. Yet it was through emirical experiences that I believe Neb finally came to
believe in the One true God.


>>I don't know if the following is valid but anyway: suppose God does not
>>exist but we have exactly the same Bible transmitted through the centuries.

This hypothetical is impossible for the Word of God is as much a miracle as the
incarnation of God.  It can never be reduced to a falible human accounting
without destroying the truth that it purports. Nor can it be separated from its
Author without distroying its uniquness.

>>Then it would be possible for a person to believe in the "facts"
>>written in this "inerrant and infallible" book but they still would
>>not have salvation. Whatever we assert about the Bible and inerrancy
>>is just that: human assertions. The work of God consists in redeeming 
>>souls not persuading intellectual assent to a set of doctrines. 
>>Otherwise faith would be proportional to intelligence.
>
Again to quote Romans: 
Rom. 1:16   For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for
salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Rom. 5:5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured
out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

Here Paul is saying that he is not ashamed of the Gospel intellectually nor
experientially.  Both are true.  If you reduce it to either intellectual truth
or experiential truth then you do not have a valid picture of God and His
revelation. And therefore, as John states:

>It is true that 'knowing' certain facts is not enough.  How I respond to 
>those facts do count.  

And the more we know of HIM, whether it be by doctrine or by experience, the
stronger is our faith.  That is why we see those "flashes in the pan" new
converts.  That is why we see in our churches those individuals who are there
at the inauguration of a project, only to quietly slip out as the newness wears
off.  Some Xians never grown out of "babyhood" and that is because they never
get any closer to God.  He created us in His own image which I hold to me that
we have a Volition, emotions, and intellect.  The fall produced disharmony
amoung these 3 and when they are dis harmonious, sin results.  We are to use
all 3 to come to a closer walk with God.  Propositional truth is the God given
food for the intellect to give ascent to the volition of man to chose to love
God for who He is truthfully. 

It is why James says that faith and works are so 
>closely alligned.  If I really believe something, I will change my  
>behavior.
>At issue here is not a call to a dry adherence to a list of facts.  It is
>a dynamic, life-changing belief in the Person and work of Christ.  But,
>if we start with a broken revelation, then all knowledge about Jesus is
>subjective and open for error.  Hardly the basis for the inevitable
>judgement to come.

The illustration given to us within the Scriptures of Israel's attempt to
follow God via a "list of facts" is self-defining. It does not say that the
"list" was incorrect, only that lists in and of themselves are powerless.  The
Word of God is alive.  That is what separates it from all other books, for it
is the Creator of the universe that has authored it and gives it life.  Life
comes from no other source.

"The moment you step into the world of facts, you step into a world of
limits."			GKChesterton

Pray for the peace of Jerusalem,
Rex

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