From: obrien@netcom.com (Robert O'Brien)
Subject: Re: Hostility in Gamers toward Certain Games
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 92 19:18:34 GMT
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Summary: Interesting idea exchange! Let's keep it above arguments :-)

I am really warming up to enjoying this thread.  Please, let's keep it alive
for a while, but let's refrain from attacks.  Not that I've seen any, but we're
pretty close, with the comment about addresses [".edu"]
I don't read rec.games.frp.advocacy, so after this one, if I have more to
contribute, I'll remove the crosspost.

For my $0.02, I find I philosophically agree with Mr. O'Sullivan, *yet* 
disagree almost diametrically with choice of favorites.  Monopoly and
various computer solitaire games [Civilization, Wolf3d,..] are among my
favorites.  My idea of a great evening often invloves gathering a few
folks together to try out a new variation of Monopoly we've dreamed up.
When I grab a sandwich and eat lunch at my desk to save time, I often
play a couple of levels of Wolf3d or a few turns of Civilization to get
my mind on a different track for a little while. (Wolf often ruins my
intention to save time;-)

But mostly, this thread interests me because it has tried to examine the
roots of intolerance.  I've not played RPG's very much at all, because I
knew right away it wasn't for me.  I build and finish military miniatures,
(and more often, models of vehicles)
but have little interest in "playing with them" literally, or figuratively,
since I prefer to display them, proud of my craft. I have enjoyed a couple
of afternoons outdoors, conducting maneuvers and battles with Mini-Tanks
(HO scale assembled models) but like RPG's, I didn't particularly get a charge
out of it, so I've left it to those who do.

It should be *obvious to the casual observer* that there is room in the world
for all these types of play.  I, too, am irked by the opinions held by some,
to the effect that 
"oh!, you play *X* too?  Well, then I don't want to play *Y* with you anymore!"

As a personal example, some of my favorite people to play
Monopoly with would rather play Risk or Diplomacy, most of the time.  I'll play
Risk once in a while, partly because I enjoy these folks' company so much. 
I hope they feel the same, because I'm not that good at Risk.  Diplomacy,
though, bores me to tears, besides which I, too, get far too much cutthroat
politicking in the 'real' world. When the planned main activity for a game
evening is Diplomacy, I would usually decline the invitation, or take
a non-playing role and enjoy the party.

I'm sure someone's .sig says "STAMP OUT ALL INTOLERANCE" and that irony
is pretty close to the center of what I've enjoyed from this thread.

I don't enjoy playing *any* game with a gamer whose casual conversation often
centers on "what fools those ____ players are"  True, there *are* personality
traits involved, and I think RPG's often reinforce certain behavior patterns
to the point that they become observable in 'real' life, but I think those
players find those behaviors enjoyable, and *choose* to adopt them into their
'real' selves.  I refuse, however, to believe these categories are immutable,
and there are "RPG type" people distinct from "Miniatures Wargame type"
distinct from "Monopoly type", "Go type" ... &c. What there are includes
both tolerant and intolerant people who like all sorts of combinations.

What I'd like to know more about is *why* some think that someone who
enjoys the play of _____ is not fit company because of it.

Since I don't (think I) have this intolerance, I'd be curious if anyone
can propose why some flavors of it are so widespread.  What I have is
intolerance of those who, based on limited knowledge of a category of games,
are intolerant of people who like to play those games.  I have played only
a little of either RPG's or miniatures battles.  I didn't enjoy the play
very much.  If I tried to say it was because the people who play those
type of games were somehow categorically people I don't like, then it
should be obvious that I ought to try the games again with different people,
since what I'd be claiming was a dislike for the players, not the game.

I've never heard anyone lament "Gee, I really like the concept behind
______ games, but all the people I find playing them are such jerks"

But I've often heard "only lame fools play _____, so it's a lousy game"


	Bob

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 
"You don't believe that old prejudice, do you, about 'all rubberheads throw
fish'?  Well, go ahead, call me a rubberhead!"   -Steve Martin
"RUBBERHEAD!"                                    -audience
{Martin pulls rubber fish out of pocket, throws into audience}
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 
ObAnecdote: My family once noticed, on the Disneyland river ride, that one
silver-haired 'guide' had his own (funnier) routine.  Years later, we learned
that was *very probably* Steve Martin
--
not a .sig!  I just felt like typing all this in! (12:17pm 7Sept)