HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
X-Delivery-Notice:  SMTP MAIL FROM does not correspond to sender.
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL0]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 12:39:49 EST
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      Re: Christian rock
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU
              Apr 7, 92 1:32 pm

>
>My own 2 cents on Christian Rock:
>
>I'd rather listen to a song in which "JESUS IS LORD" is screamed over and
>over again than a good old fashioned nice song that swoons....
>
>"Amazing grace ...how sweet the sound...
>
>that saved someONE like me"
>               ^^^
>
>
>We're not sinners any more, we've just made a few minor mistakes...
>
>ptooey!
>
>Give me the hard core gospel over the bubblegum pseudoBiblical lyrics
>some of your "southern gospel" singers create.
>
>John
>

I always thought it was "Saved a wretch like me"... And I was certainly
a wretch before I found Christ!..

As it is, I enjoy Christian Rock, but there is also a place in my heart for
such beautiful songs as Amazing Grace!!

perhaps you might show some _Amazing Grace_ towards the people that enjoy
listening to such music John..

*****************************************************************************
Ian Williams          			Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems         			Phone   : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Delivery-Notice:  SMTP MAIL FROM does not correspond to sender.
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL0]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1992 12:40:29 EST
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      Re: have they found the ark??
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU
              Apr 6, 92 2:52 pm

>Ian:
>
>I've read different articles over the past couple of years that say
>the Jews are putting together items used in worship in the Temple,
>such as musical instruments, clothing that was required to wear before
>entering the Temple, and different things like this.  There is a sect
>that is getting ready to rebuild the Temple and I'm sure they also
>have been looking for the Ark.
>
>Anyway it is interesting, but we both know it won't be found until the
>Lord wants it to be found.
>
>If anyone does read this book, how about a summary to the list.
>
>Thanks.
>
>                                        Liz
>

I can't remember where I have read it now, but something comes to mind about
an end time prophesy regarding the re-establishment of worship in the temple!!

'even so, come soon Lord Jesus!'

*****************************************************************************
Ian Williams          			Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems         			Phone   : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 13:40:59 EDT
Comments:     Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X
From:         Brenda Curry-White <BSCURR01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: pro-choice

Urban Research Institute
Phone: 502-588-6626

I am sending a personal reply to Kerry on her reply to my reply to Roy
Jacobsen (whew! :-).  It is in the vicinity of 120 lines, and if anyone
would like a copy, let me know.  I think the issue of labels has taken
up enough of everyone's disk space, and I feel like I keep saying the
same thing over and over anyway.

I did want to mention that it was NEVER my intention to ridicule the
term "prolife".  If anyone inferred that, (especially Roy) I apologize.
I was simply trying to point out that from my perspective, your (plural--
to all you prolifers) term for yourselves can seem as silly as my term
for myself.  However, you have a right to call yourselves what you
wish, and I respect that.  And so I would never call anyone who
identified themself as prolife "anti-choice"--anymore than I wish
to be called "pro-abortion".

On another topic-------finally :-)
Mail volume has increased tremendously.  Can we all be more careful of
sending posts that have nothing new to contribute (the "Amen", "Thank
You" etc. posts)?  Many of these can be more appropriately sent privately.
It would certainly help me, because I have to look at each individual post
before I delete it if I want to look at and possibly respond to any of
them.  And also,  can we try to read all of the posts before we respond?
Many times I find that I want to respond to a post, but if I check the
rest of the mail first, I find someone else already said what I wanted to
say.  This would be helpful to me as well (and I hope to others).

Brenda
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Via:      UK.AC.AFRC.JII;  8 APR 92 10:47:52 BST
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 10:47:00 GMT
From:         HANNANT@JII.AFRC.AC.UK
Subject:      Psalm 16

All,
    I feel that the Lord has been laying this on my heart to send it to the
list.  Whenever I pick up a bible I read this Psalm first and the bible
which sums it up for me best is the Good News Bible.

A Prayer of Confidence.

Protect me, O God; I trust in you for safety.
I say to the Lord,"You are my Lord and all the good things I have come
from you."

How excellent are the Lord's faithful people !
My greatest pleasure is to be with them.

Those who rush to other gods bring many troubles on themselves.
I will not take part in their sacrifices;
I will not worship their gods.

You, Lord, are all I have,
and you give me all I need;
my future is in your hands.
How wonderful are your gifts to me;
how good they are !

I praise the Lord, because he guides me,
and in the night my conscience warns me.
I am always aware of the Lord's presence;
he is near, and nothing can shake me.

And so I am thankful and glad,
and I feel completely secure,
because you protect me from the power of death.
I have served you faithfully,
and you will not abandon me to the worl of the dead.

You will show me the path that leads to life;
your presence fills me with joy
and brings me pleasure for ever.

   Sorry if it is a bit long.  This psalm just means a lot to me.  'My future
is in your hands,' always warms my heart even on the most despairing of days.
   God bless you all, Nigel.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 15 Apr 1992 13:57:21 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Safe Sex #2

Darryl:

Please explain.  What, precisely, is a "Federally-funded pregnancy clinic."
All of the crisis pregnancy centers that I know of are independent
of federal funding.  Perhaps you are confusing them with Planned Parenthood
clinics, which are granted federal money with the restriction that such
funding go only to the prevention of pregnancy, not to advocating or assisting
abortion of existing pregnancies.  (Incidentally, I do not understand the
outrage Planned Parenthood has expressed at the regulations of the Health
and Human Services Department concerning this funding, considering that
the Family Planning Act itself clearly states that abortion is not considered
under the Act to be a form of family planning.)  Anyway, I just noticed the
phrase and wondered what you were talking about.
  Besides, what does that have to do with the fact that increasing the availa-
bility of condoms has not been demonstrated to effectively reduce the spread
of the AIDS virus?  Or that engaging in promiscuous sexual behavior is a
violation of God's will?  I would also like to point out that, up until now,
this discussion has implicitly assumed that the only damage done by this
unbiblical behavior is physical.  The fact is that sex with a person to whom
you are not married is spiritually and emotionally damaging, and God, in His
infinite mercy, advises us in the strongest possible terms, to avoid abusing
ourselves, each other, and His good gift of sex by engaging in behavior that
could potentially destroy our lives, our reputations, our relationships,
and our communion with the spirit of God.
                                         Love INC,
                                                  ---Kerry
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Subject: (no subject given)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 10 Apr 1992 02:38:22 -0800
From:         dr798302 <whchen@CS.NTHU.EDU.TW>

Hi, All-
  Some people believe both in God in Darwen's revolution.  Their belief
are based on that God might not create things like we generally thought
but HE may made them out of revolution, as there seems to be no
chronically conflict. A day in the bible may refer to thousands years in
His mind.  Do you think their viewpoint are correct?

Allen
.
Organization: Wherever it lands, it stays 'til I need it
Date: Tuesday, 14 Apr 1992 08:48:40 EDT
From: Kurt Ludwick <KEL111@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Who's doing what (Was: Abortion)

In article <495E1C6D8202C463@CC.UTAH.EDU>, Steven Klepzig
<SKLEPZI@SSB1.SAFF.UTAH.EDU> says:

>This is no greater a societal change than was made by Roe v Wade (interesting
>idea, the Supreme Court making laws...).

It's an interpretation of the Constitution, as far as I can see.  But, in any
case, legalization of abortion wasn't so much of a change as a restoration.
Abortion had been illegal for a relatively short span of time in American
history, about 100 years or so.

------------
Kurt Ludwick
------------
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 14 Apr 1992 23:27:04 EDT
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      For Wednesday 15 April 1992
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET, BSTUDY-L@UTARLVM1.BITNET,
              IVCF-L@UBVM.BITNET

FOR HOLY WEEK

Assist us mercifully with thy help,
O Lord God of our salvation,
that we may enter with joy
upon the contemplation of those mighty acts
whereby thou hast given unto us life and immortality,
Through Jesus Christ our Lord.

      FOR THE WEDNESDAY BEFORE EASTER

      READING: Isaiah 50:4-9a
      ("I gave my back to the smiters....")

      PSALM 69:6-13,20-21
      ("In thy service, O LORD, I have suffered reproach...
      In my thirst, they gave me vinegar to drink.")

      EPISTLE: Hebrews 9:11-15,24-28
      (Christ is our great High Priest,
      who has made a perfect offering.)

      THE HOLY GOSPEL: John 13:21-35
      (Jesus at the Last Supper foretells His betrayal,
      and commands His disciples to love one another.)

O Lord God,
whose blessed Son our Savior
gave his back to the smiters
and hid not his face from shame:
Grant us grace to take joyfully the sufferings of the present time,
in full assurance of the glory that shall be revealed;
through the same thy Son Jesus Christ our Lord,
who liveth and reigneth with thee and the Holy Spirit,
one God, for ever and ever.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL0]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1992 19:10:50 EST
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      Biblical NT Church Leadership - Part 01

Hi!..

Following are notes taken from our bible college lecture on Tuesday night
regarding the Ascension gift ministries of Eph 4.
I will post the teaching on Apostles now, since it directly relates to
Marty's discussion on 'hierachial' church leadership...

Please note that these are my notes and hence is terse and rather to the
point (my hand writing speed is pretty bad, I spent most of my time typing).

If any one is interested, I will post the notes on the rest of the Eph 4
gifts (however the bulk of the teaching is on the Apostle - the most
misunderstood gift of the church)

Anyway on with the show
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Notes from Bible College 07/4/92
Lecturer: 	Dudley Daniel
	 	Lead Elder
		Coastlands International Christian Centre
		Adelaide, Australia

Major Texts:	Eph 4:9-16
		I Cor 12:28

Subject:	Ascension Gift Ministries (5/4 Ministry Gifts of Jesus)
		Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, Teachers


Why are they given?
	Eph 4:12	To edify or build up
			To equip
			To enlist

"Unity of the Faith"
We will only reach the unity of the faith when the unbiblical denominational
structures are pulled down and churches begin to relate to Apostolic teams.
Sometimes to build up, we must first pull down.
The gifts provoke Unity, Maturity and Stability.

Outline.

Apostles	-	Govern
Prophets	-	Guide
Evangelists	- 	Gather
Pastors		-	Guard
Teachers	-	Ground

Whilst these are gifts, they are not the gifts of the Spirit. Eph 4 plainly
tells us that the giver of the gifts is the ascended Christ.

The receipients of the gifts are itinerant or translocal. ie not every pastor
of every church is the receipient of the Gift to Pastor, but they are
people that form teams to move out to plant churches and to establish the
church amongst the heathen.


CONTINUED...


*****************************************************************************
Ian Williams          			Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems         			Phone   : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1992 01:44:13 EDT
From:         Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject:      RE: Abortion terminology

Kerry,  I think I usually hyphenate them, but I won't guarantee it.
Marty Helgesen
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Envelope-to: CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET
X-VMS-To: IN%"CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 14 Apr 1992 11:14:00 EDT
From:         Jeff Shirton <SHIRTON@MCMASTER.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Contraception == abortion? (was Re: re:pro-choice)

Kurt,

> Anyway, I'm wondering, first of all, how the Catholic Church feels about the
> fact that 1/4 of all blastocysts (fertilized eggs) are naturally 'aborted.'
> That is, they are naturally flushed out of the woman's body before they are

God allows this, just as He allows miscarriages, still births, Sudden Infant
Death Syndrome, and everything else.  We don't know why, but it is His plan,
and He's in control of it.

> Is anything being done about this?  If life is
> to begin at conception, then we are allowing 25% of all people to die.
> Nobody is at fault here, but it is still happening.

Since it is "naturally" happening, it is under God's control.  Even if we
_could_ find a way to implant these zygotes, it would be a case of "playing
God", or second-guessing Him.  Personally, I'd rather not.

> However (as I understand this, please correct me if
> I am wrong), the birth control pill causes the menstrual cycle to persist even
> after implantation of a fertilized egg in the uterus, causing it to be flushed
> out just as so many other blastocysts are.  Is this form of birth control con-
> sidered the moral equivalent of abortion by the Catholic Church, and is it
> therefore banned?

To my understanding, the RCC teaches that abortion is wrong, and also that
birth control(*) is wrong, so deciding whether or not a form of birth control
is considered abortion is really a non-issue.

(*) other than NFP, I believe.

In Christ,
.------------------------v----------------------------------------------------.
| Jeff Shirton           | "Now it is God that has...given us the Spirit as a |
| shirton@McMaster.CA    |  deposit, guaranteeing what is to come."  2Cor.5:5 |
`------------------------^----------------------------------------------------'
From: DJOHNSON@TCUCVMS.BITNET (Darryl (The Other Brother) Johnson)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: re-pro-choice
Date: 10 Apr 92 20:01:00 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Envelope-to: CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET
X-VMS-To: IN%"CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET"

From: John Ross <ROSSJB@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Darryl, that was not nice.
     I occasionally post things that are not nice.  In this case,
     I feel it was justified.  To post once, without any evidence,
     is understandable.  Twice enters the realm of condescending
     behavior.  "Look it up yourself" is NOT a valid defense of
     a statement.

I _do_ hope you know the scriptual references he was thinking of.
     I do now.  I didn't then.  I wasn't saying the Bible DIDN'T
     say that.  But then, no one was mentioning the Bible at all.

This may be a stupid question, but just what is Texas Christian
University teaching you?  One would hope that you would have run
across verses dealing with "children are blessings" before this point.
     1) Texas Christian University is a secular school.
     2) I'm studying psychology, not theology.
     Your assumptions are not uncommon, though.

Does your University have you read the Bible?  (Sigh, and I'm not
accusing you of not reading the Bible... I'm just suprised that you
either _don't_ know of Biblical references to those little blessings
or you _are_ feigning ignorance.
     I don't feign ignorance; I have enough NATURAL ignorance
     that I feel very little need to make up more.  And as most
     of the people on Christia never cease to surprise me, it
     comes as little shock that I do the same for you.

The world is roundish.
     This is common knowledge.  All verses in the Bible are
     not.  And, once read, they are not always understood.
     Understanding the Bible is a lifelong process: forgive me
     if I haven't mastered it yet.

>As it has been repeated, and it isn't marked as an opinion,
>it would SEEM to be a genuine dogmatic egotistical statement!

Guess so.  Or, _maybe_ we can take _some_ statements as givens?
     Has that EVER been done here on CHRISTIA?  Why don't we just
     take ALL statments as givens, and we can all go home in total
     enlightenment?  When everyone else demands Biblical evidence,
     again forgive me if I do the same, after the statement has
     been posted TWICE without evidence, once after the request.

     Darryl at Texas Secular Humanist University
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 16 Apr 1992 20:15:06 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Earth Day

List Folk:
I just recieved an announcement in campus mail about the festivities
planned for Earth Week.  The thing that puzzles me is that there is
going to be a benefit dance for Planned Parenthood on Saturday.  Is this
a common linkage?  Could someone explain to me what PP has to do with
Earth Day?  (Zero Population Growth, I could maybe understand, but
Planned Parenthood?)  Also, an amusing note:  One of the presentations
is entitled "War on the Environment:  Military's Role in the Environmental
Movement"  I'm sure that "against" the environmental movement is what is
meant, but I found it kind of funny to think of what it literally says.
                                               Love INC,
                                                        --Kerry
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Delivery-Notice: SMTP MAIL FROM does not correspond to sender.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1992 09:55:11 BST
From:         "Jonathan Wheeler" <JFW1@IBM-B.RUTHERFORD.AC.UK>
Subject:      Re: Kingdom within us ?
              1 Apr 1992 17:57:00 EST from <BSC92SPA18@EDU.MASS.RCN.RCNVMS>

On Wed, 1 Apr 1992 17:57:00 EST Jeff Sinatra said:
>
>Jonathan,
>...this quote, "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus," is
>is speaking of the divine nature of Jesus, but as one reads further, Paul
>states, "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his
>good pleasure."  Yes, Jesus is divine, but at the same time these passages
>are speaking about our own God-given identity--"That ye may be blameless and
>harmless, the sons of God..."

Two points here: a) I agree that our identity as 'sons of God' is God-given,
                    but this is not inherent in our nature as human beings
                    (except in so far as all people are children of God as
                    created by God).  Remember that Paul here is writing to
                    Christian believers.
                 b) your last quote continues '...without blemish in the midst
                    of a crooked and perverse generation' (Phil 2: 15 RSV).
                    Paul explicitly makes the point that the believers are
                    distinct from their contemporaries, not in their
                    understanding, but in their conduct.

>                                 Thus, these passages are teaching us of our
>own eternal identity--our own potential, of which Christ Jesus is the perfect
>example.  By cultivating a spiritual understanding through the teachings and
>demonstrations of Christ Jesus, we are letting this mind be in us that was also
>in Christ Jesus, and we are learning that in fact the kingdom of heaven does
>come from within.

But this is only true for those who are being saved; salvation as understood
throughout the Bible is not to do with correct understanding (that may or may
not be involved), but it is to do with accepting God as God who has a right
to a claim on my allegiance.  Note that I state the position in this way to
include those from before the time of Christ.

>        Your absolutely right, "The Bible is not speaking about a hidden
>principle that has been obscured for for centuries..."  It is speaking of
>Truth, that, unfortunately, few people have understood due to the materialism
>of the ages.

I see your second sentence as an explicit contradiction of the first.

>            The fact that we are not imitating the works of Jesus today, when
>he stated "...the works that I do shall ye do also," should be ample proof.
>

Are you saying that we are somehow limiting the power of God to work ?  If you
are saying this, then you are suggesting that we have a real ability to limit
the activity of God.  Is this a good thing or not ?  If it is not good, what
is the source of this wrong ?  I would be interested in your answers to these
questions ?

Yours sincerely

Jonathan Wheeler
From: kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu (Dr Nancy's Sweetie)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Poverty
Summary: Concepts don't exist the way matter and energy do.
Date: 9 Apr 92 15:49:05 GMT
Article-I.D.: gboro.1992Apr9.154905.5175
Organization: Glassboro State College


Kerry Stephenson asks about Isaiah 45:6-7, "... I form the light, and create
darkness:  I make peace, and create evil."

> If God created evil, how can it not exist?

Because `evil' is not a kind of material or energy; `creating evil' is a
figure of speech.  Consider that `darkness' is not a material either; darkness
is merely a condition wherein there is an absence of visible light.  One does
not actually `create darkness', one just removes all the light.

When you close the door in your refrigerator, are you creating darkness
inside, or just keeping any new light from getting in?  Most people would
agree that you are not making any new darkness, you are just stopping the
light bulb from making new light.


For another example, consider this instruction: "Don't you go stirring up
trouble".  We all know that `trouble' is not something you actually stir; it
isn't like cake batter.  You can't put trouble in a bowl and take a spoon to
it.  If somebody didn't know the colloquial phrase `stir up trouble', then he
might imagine we mean to say that trouble is a kind of material; that would be
a mistake caused by over-literalism.

The Bible contains much poetry and many figures of speech; the Song of Song is
filled with examples that sound hilarious if read literally.  In general, if
the only support for an idea is one or two sentences, then I am hesitant to
make a fine point of doctrine out of it.  The passage in Isaiah is about how
God is the only one there is, and about his power; Isaiah does not seem to be
writing an essay about existentialism and Platonic Forms, and I think it is a
mistake to use a literal reading of this verse to claim that evil exists.


kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu      Darren F. Provine      ...njin!gboro!kilroy
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU