HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: quale@spock.cs.wisc.edu (Doug Quale)
Subject: Re: Gaprindashvilli's strength (was re: Fishcer with odds)
Organization: Undergraduate Projects Lab, UW-Madison
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 05:22:44 GMT


Doug> You're crazy if you think even a perfect chess machine could give knight
Doug> odds to a 2300 player.

Bill> I may well be crazy, but you need a better argument than that.
Bill> Fischer's a goon, and his comments may be more sexist bravado than anything
Bill> else, but I'd bet he knew what he was talking about at the time.

Bill> MADNESS


John> Gaprindashvilli in 1963 finished ahead of all of the English players at
John> Hastings and broke even with Tal in speed chess.  At Rejkavijk 
John> immediately thereafter she finished behind only Tal and Gligoric.  The
John> evidence is that she was a very strong 2400 player, and nobody thought
John> that Fischer could give her Knight odds at any form of chess in 1963.
John> In fact the Soviets thought the offer was a joke; that G would have
John> crushed F in such a match.  As Bill Maddex says: a reality check guys!

Bill, the courtesy of a reply is requested.

P.S.  I think you're crazy.



Gaprindashvilli in 1963 finished ahead of all of the English players at
Hastings and broke even with Tal in speed chess.  At Rejkavijk 
immediately thereafter she finished behind only Tal and Gligoric.  The
evidence is that she was a very strong 2400 player, and nobody thought
that Fischer could give her Knight odds at any form of chess in 1963.
In fact the Soviets thought the offer was a joke; that G would have
crushed F in such a match.  As Bill Maddex says: a reality check guys!


-- 
Doug Quale
quale@saavik.cs.wisc.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.chess
From: mwm@hasler.ascom.ch (Mike McGann %7817)
Subject: Re: Gnufour on ICS
Organization: Ascom Hasler AG, CH-3000 Berne 14, Switzerland
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 07:27:49 GMT

In his article benoni says that when he plays gnufour unreg he wins and registered he gets crushed. 

gnugour plays the same registered or unregistered. But gnufour is a development system and
on any given day we may be testing a good idea or abad idea. That is what determines the
quality of play. It is never up just to play and new tunings or ideas are installed 
every day to try them out. We test new ideas with test positions and so forth but
there is nothing like real play to prove an idea. 

On the ICS we find that when we put something new in we get a surge of wins then after a few days 
the players seem to adjust to the new play and the wins decrease. Maybe we should put in a
comtinuously variable player. Also we suffer a lot from disconnect when losing. It seems
lines drop with the score.

mike
From: Bruce_Harper@mindlink.bc.ca (Bruce Harper)
Subject: Re: F-S II Wrap-Up
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 15:49:40 GMT

Thanks again for the great service you did many chess players, past, present
and possibly future.  I haven't played tournament chess since 1982 (although
I subscribe to Inside Chess and still follow everything from a distance), but
Bobby's return has started me thinking about playing again too.  It's a bit
like a drug...  On the other hand, I still have another ten years to wait, I
suppose!

Anyway, I appreciated your efforts, as did Duncan Suttles, to whom I relayed
the games.  It will be interesting to see if Fischer and Kasparov will get
together - so near, yet so far!  I think Fischer and Anand are the two
players who would give Kasparov the most trouble, although I don't think
either can beat him right now.  Naturally I would never post something like
this on the net, as two hundred 1200 players would jump down my throat...
From: linb@ucs.orst.edu (Benjamin Lin)
Newsgroups: rec.games.chess
Subject: Re: How to become a Master?
Date: 11 Nov 92 17:27:27 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.BxKB5s.8JM
Organization: University Computing Services - OSU

In article <1992Nov11.034214.9353@cis.uab.edu> sloan@cis.uab.edu (Kenneth Sloan) writes:
>
>I believe that "National Master" is FIDE-speak for Master - but perhaps
>there is more to it than that.  FIDE rating > 2200?
>

"FIDE-speak for Master" is FM, FIDE master.  National Master means you
are a master in your home country.

-benoni
Newsgroups: rec.games.chess
From: herbert@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Herbert Pohlai)
Subject: provisional ICS ratings 
Organization: Technical University Vienna
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 12:36:24 GMT

IMHO, no one should rely on these ICS ratings, BUT:

If the provisional rating for a new player is low,
no one will take the risk of playing against this low rated, but
possibly strong opponent.

If the provisional rating is high, everybody will be ready
to play against new opponents - and this is what a new
player wants !!! 

From this point of view, it would be a nice idea to set the
provisional rating somewhere in the 1500 - 2000 range.

herby 
-- 
Herbert Pohlai     herbert@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at
Newsgroups: rec.games.chess
From: logan@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Richard Scott)
Subject: Re: provisional ICS ratings 
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 15:30:43 GMT

In <1992Nov6.123624.4401@email.tuwien.ac.at> herbert@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Herbert Pohlai) writes:

>IMHO, no one should rely on these ICS ratings, BUT:

>If the provisional rating for a new player is low,
>no one will take the risk of playing against this low rated, but
>possibly strong opponent.

This has always struck me as dumb, people scared to play because they
will lose rating points?  Geez, why even bother playing?  Just on the
off chance that a worse player may beat you.  Does your rating really
matter this much, or would you rather just play?

Richard
-- 
AussieVamp 
AussieMan, Neophyte Vampire and DarkWolf
(Eric Clapton is God!!!)   [ and there is Bobby Fischer... ;-) ]
(Walter Payton, Mike Singletary and Neal Anderson form the Holy Trinity!)
Newsgroups: rec.games.chess
From: edd@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (ed.knowles)
Subject: Re: Best player never to win the World Championship
Organization: AT&T
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 15:31:02 GMT
Summary:  Petrosian Stronger than you think...

In article <1992Nov6.194810.16486@midway.uchicago.edu>, hau4@ellis.uchicago.edu (sven  hauptfeld) writes:
> In article <1992Nov6.121821.18395@maths.nott.ac.uk> anw@maths.nott.ac.uk (Dr A. N. Walker) writes:
> >In article <1992Nov5.152457.25196@gdr.bath.ac.uk> mapmef@gdr.bath.ac.uk
> >(M E Fletcher) writes of Short and Timman:
> >
> >>[Of course neither of them has the remotest chance against Kasparov.]
> >
> >	Of course not.  On the other hand, nor did Alekhine against
> >Capablanca, Euwe against Alekhine [1935], Botvinnik against Smyslov
> >[1958], Tal against Botvinnik [1960], Botvinnik against Tal [1961],
> >Petrosian against Spassky [1966],
> 
> kidneys didn't work. Finally, Spassky was certainly a stronger player than
> Petrosian in '66, but Petrosian was always very tough and very stable, so his
> minimal win (or was the match drawn? all I remember is that it was not more
> than a point difference) was only a minor surprise.
> 
> 	Sven

Though Spassky was favored to win the world championship in 1966, it must
be remembered that Petrosian was the world champion, and definitely the
most difficult man to defeat in the world (even before he won the world
championship, he had this reputation). Most fans preferred Spassky's attacking
style to Petrosian's prophylactic approach to chess, so much of Spassky
being favored was wishful thinking (just as in the first Kasparov-Karpov
match, Kasparov was favored over World Champion Karpov ). Petrosian out-
played Spassky to retain his title and even won positions that were very
tactical in nature, where Spassky was expected to shine. Spassky won the
world championship from Petrosian in 1969 and part of his success was due
to his chamelon-like ability to mimic Petrosian's style. Petrosian is often
mentioned when discussing "weak" world champions ( a pretty silly idea -
there were no weak world champions ). This is probably because he had a
low winning percentage in comparison with other world champions. However,
he probably had one of the lowest (if no the lowest) losing percentage of
all world champions. His lack of domination was due more to lack of ambition
than lack of strength I think. This is a player who in an olympiad once
scored 11.5 of 13 on top board!! He beat out none other than Fischer for
the gold medal on first board ( Fischer lost a game against Georgiev to
blow it). In 1966 I would venture to say he was stronger than Spassky and
proved it by retaining his title. Considering Spassky's obvious domination
at the time, one would have to say that Petrosian was very, very strong.

                                         -Ed Knowles

>
From: strgh@csv.warwick.ac.uk (J E H Shaw)
Newsgroups: rec.games.chess
Subject: Opening variations
Date: 11 Nov 1992 17:18:36 -0000
Organization: Computing Services, University of Warwick, UK
NNTP-Posting-Host: violet.csv.warwick.ac.uk
Keywords: ECO, copyright

I have a text file with >1000 opening variations by name & by ECO
classification.  I'm willing to upload it to the valkyries server
if that's legal - can anyone knowledgable about such things (Eric?)
tell me if the ECO classification is copyrighted to the extent that
I can't give away a complete list of what [ABCDE][0-9][0-9] mean?
Similarly some of the names are not well-known (to me) but are lifted
from (e.g.) `Unorthodox Openings', `The Oxford Companion to Chess', etc.
Is that O.K.?

Disclaimer: the format is antique - a future version would probably
use SANkit/PGN notation.  A typical current entry is:
%
%-C89 Ruy Lopez, Marshall, Spassky variation
1.e2e4 e7e5 g1f3 b8c6 f1b5 a7a6 b5a4 g8f6 e1g1 f8e7 ...you get the idea

Claimer: I think it's all correct (all moves guaranteed computer-checked).

        -- Ewart Shaw
-- 
J.E.H.Shaw,  Department of Statistics,  |  JANET:  strgh@uk.ac.warwick.cu
             University of Warwick,     |  BITNET: strgh%uk.ac.warwick.cu@UKACRL
             Coventry  CV4 7AL,  U.K.   |  PHONE:  +44 203 523069
Sarah (20 months) on first seeing juggling:  `Balls skipping in the sky'.
From: sje@xylos.ma30.bull.com (Steven J. Edwards)
Newsgroups: rec.games.chess
Subject: Re: Notation Poll (PGN presentation game paragraphs)
Date: 10 Nov 92 19:02:12 GMT
Reply-To: sje@xylos.ma30.bull.com
Distribution: rec
Organization: Bull HN, Worldwide Information Systems, Billerica, Mass., USA

Obviously, the second "Question #6" is really "Question #7".

Ah kaint spel wurth ah dam, niether.
From: amarnath@aura.cis.upenn.edu (Amarnath Mukherjee)
Newsgroups: rec.games.chess
Subject: Re: ICS Ratings -- Average Ratings -- Provisional Ratings
Date: 12 Nov 92 23:04:29 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <1992Nov12.222033.2823@cis.uab.edu> sloan@cis.uab.edu (Kenneth Sloan) writes:
>
>But...the advantage of making the two scales *look* different is that we
>won't see people waving about their ICS rating without qualification,
>pretending that it is their USCF (or FIDE) rating.

True..there's also another issue that I think is relevant:

Many of us play there to have fun and the ratings are
important only in so far as they can entice stronger
players (than ourselves) to play with us.

Also, most people play much more seriously (alsmost for blood) in
tournaments...ICS is  a friendly place to check out other players
and have fun. For instance, I've never played an IM OTB, but one gets
to play aries, ekw, scratchy etc. on ICS and learn from them.
Also, we get to play jarmo, rkl and others from Europe sitting
in the US and vice versa!

I for one have no complaints! Thanks much gang for a wonderful job!!

Amarnath Mukherjee
(ICS- am)
Newsgroups: rec.games.chess
From: onar@hsr.no (Onar Aam)
Subject: Re: Why I Hate the ICS rating system.
Organization: Rogaland University Centre
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 16:48:47 GMT

>In article <baljeual.721071691@uther> baljeual@uther.calvin.edu (Alan Baljeu) writes:
>>sloan@cis.uab.edu (Kenneth Sloan) writes:
>>
>>>What are the *goals* of the ICS system?  Is the intent to match USCF
>>>ratings?  Player-by-player (for those with ratings in each system)?
>>>Statistically? How detailed?  Mean and std dev?
>>
>>If you ask me, I think a good goal is to have a player of constant strength
>>have a constant rating.  Then a person can tell if (s)he is improving,
>>staying the same, or going senile.  Other than that, it doesn't really matter
>>to me.
>>
>
>Good.  That's a reasonable goal.  Now - do you have any ideas on how to
>achieve that goal?  I don't.
>-- 
>Kenneth Sloan                   Computer and Information Sciences
>sloan@cis.uab.edu               University of Alabama at Birmingham

Set the provisional rating to the average! That solves the problem. Then this
rating will become an attractor for the average. (Or we could just wait until the
average reaches the current provisional rating, 1000) 


Onar.


Newsgroups: rec.games.chess
From: quale@spock.cs.wisc.edu (Doug Quale)
Subject: Re: Gaprindashvilli's strength (was re: Fishcer with odds)
Organization: Undergraduate Projects Lab, UW-Madison
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 05:38:06 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.002009.18009@midway.uchicago.edu> mad4@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>Reality check guys.  I'm pretty sure Gaprindashvilli didn't make her first
>GM norm until well after Fischer had stopped playing.  When Fischer made
>his notorious remark in the early '60s she was probably about a 2300 player,
>and it's quite probable he could've given her knight odds.

You're crazy if you think even a perfect chess machine could give knight
odds to a 2300 player.



-- 
Doug Quale
quale@saavik.cs.wisc.edu
From: riley@hotmetal.EBay.Sun.COM (Riley Hughes)
Newsgroups: rec.games.chess
Subject: How to become a Master?
Date: 11 Nov 1992 00:13:26 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems
Distribution: world
Reply-To: riley@hotmetal.EBay.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: hotmetal.ebay.sun.com


Anyone with a rating above 2200 is considered a Master.

What is necessary to become a National, International, or Grandmaster?
How are the titles earned?

Riley Hughes
From: edd@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (ed.knowles)
Newsgroups: rec.games.chess
Subject: Re: Gaprindashvilli's strength (was re: Fishcer with odds)
Summary: A real reality check
Date: 10 Nov 92 15:09:07 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <1992Nov10.002009.18009@midway.uchicago.edu>, mad4@ellis.uchicago.edu (Bill Maddex) writes:
> Reality check guys.  I'm pretty sure Gaprindashvilli didn't make her first
> GM norm until well after Fischer had stopped playing.  When Fischer made
> his notorious remark in the early '60s she was probably about a 2300 player,
> and it's quite probable he could've given her knight odds.  I don't know
> whether there's any record of his giving odds in a non blitz setting, but
> Darrach recounts an incident in '72 when he gave Lombardy a rook and nearly
> won.  Lombardy was much stronger than Gaprindashvilli at the time, and rook
> odds are *much* harder than knight odds.
> 
> MADNESS

I assume that "nearly won" means he lost. Also rook odds are much easier than
knight odds. Rooks generally don't impact the game until lines are opened in
the middlegame. Think how many games are decided before rooks are even developed
Knights, however are usually the first pieces out and are effective even in
closed positions. Personally, I think Fischer's challenge was ridiculous and
was ignored for just that reason. Fischer may be stronger than i think he is,
but he's certainly is not and has never been as strong as he thinks he is or
was. Fischer is Fischer, but a knight is a knight.

					-Ed Knowles
Newsgroups: rec.games.chess
From: mad4@ellis.uchicago.edu (Bill Maddex)
Subject: Re: Wanted: Fischer's Best Games, Annotated
Reply-To: mad4@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: Pranksters for Peace
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 22:57:02 GMT

In article <KAP1.92Nov4003152@cse.unl.edu> kap1@cse.unl.edu (dietrich kappe) writes:

>Apparently Fischer published a book after he played in and won his
>first US closed. It contains his games with anotations from that
>tournament. Larry Evans may have helped him put it together, written
>an introduction, etc...
>
>I've never seen this, but a friend of mine claims to have seen it. I
>assume its out of print. Anyone know more about this mystery book?
>
>Dietrich
>kap1@cse.unl.edu

Actually, D, another friend of yours owns it.  It's called "Bobby Fischer's
Games of Chess," and it's got his notes to all the games from that first U.S.
Championship along w/the Game of the Century.  It also has all his games from
the Portoroz Interzonal, w/o notes.  Evans had nothing to do w/the book.  

As Soltis (most recently) pointed out, Evans probably deserves credit for the
prose in My Sixty Memorable Games.  I doubt he should get credit for any of
the analysis.  The prose in the earlier book may actually be Bobby's, since
he was still a student at the time and may not have sunk to total monosylables
yet, though I don't know.  There's a publisher's note about why they stuck
in the bare scores of the Interzonal games, as well as noting that he won
the next U.S. Championship.  In the days before desktop, there was clearly
some lag between getting the manuscript from the author and hitting the store
shelves.

MADNESS
From: ronr@ateami2.EBay.Sun.COM (RON RICHARDSON - SUN MICROSYSTEMS)
Newsgroups: rec.games.chess
Subject: FAQ help and questions....
Date: 9 Nov 1992 17:52:41 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: ronr@ateami2.EBay.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: ateami2.ebay.sun.com

I'm new to this group and would like the FAQ if available.  Also, could
some kind sole please email me an explanation of chess notation rules?
I have a brief understanding of [1. d3   e5] but would like to have the 
details [like castleing, check, mate, etc].

Also, I've seen mention of email chess programs to facilitate the moves,
mailings, etc.  An ftp site would be appreciated.

Thanks for the bandwidth....

Ron
Newsgroups: rec.games.chess
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 06:52:31 -0500 
From: John Anthony Chanak <jc79@ANDREW.CMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: ICS Ratings -- Average Ratings -- Provisional Ratings
	<1992Nov12.223157.25495@cs.cornell.edu>

Excerpts from netnews.rec.games.chess: 12-Nov-92 Re: ICS Ratings --
Average .. Shirish Chinchalkar@cs.c (2575)

> The reason for deflation of ICS ratings goes beyond introduction of new
> players into the system. IN THE ABSENSE OF NEW PLAYERS, the ICS ratings
> will STILL drop to 0. I have mailed the following to the ICS admins, but
> have not received any response yet. I would like to know if my reasoning
> is correct or not.

This is a bug and has been fixed as of yesterday (Thursday).  It is the
first truly believable explanation I have yet heard; the bug is there;
the numbers work out.

> The bug is in not using a temporary variable when doing integer operations
in the file ratings.c in the IRS code.

There are lots of ways to squash bugs... 

> The reason this drop was not so prominent earlier is that there was a ratings
> floor and because very few games were played before the FS-2 boom.

>   Shirish.

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

[explanation deleted]

-John Chanak
From: sloan@cis.uab.edu (Kenneth Sloan)
Subject: Re: How to become a Master?
Organization: CIS, University of Alabama at Birmingham
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 03:42:14 GMT

In article <1dpj76INN4s2@male.EBay.Sun.COM> riley@hotmetal.EBay.Sun.COM writes:
>
>Anyone with a rating above 2200 is considered a Master.
>
>What is necessary to become a National, International, or Grandmaster?
>How are the titles earned?

USCF refers to players as Master and Senior Master for ratings above
2200 and 2400 respectively.  The title Life Master is earned either by
maintaining 2200+ over 300 games (this method is being phased out) - or
as one of the new, improved titles-by-norms scheme.  See the FAQ for
details.  Essentially, titles based on norms are awarded in recognition
of some number of outstanding performances.

FIDE awards the titles International Master and International
Grandmaster based on norms.  The details have changed over time.

The "titles" Master and Senior Master can be lost if your rating falls
below the threshold. Life Master and titles based on norms are lifetime
awards. 

I believe that "National Master" is FIDE-speak for Master - but perhaps
there is more to it than that.  FIDE rating > 2200?







-- 
Kenneth Sloan                   Computer and Information Sciences
sloan@cis.uab.edu               University of Alabama at Birmingham
(205) 934-2213                  115A Campbell Hall, UAB Station 
(205) 934-5473 FAX              Birmingham, AL 35294-1170
Newsgroups: rec.games.chess
From: onar@hsr.no (Onar Aam)
Subject: Re: Why I Hate the ICS rating system.
Organization: Rogaland University Centre
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 06:34:23 GMT

>>
>>Set the provisional rating to the average! That solves the problem. Then this
>>rating will become an attractor for the average. (Or we could just wait until the
>>average reaches the current provisional rating, 1000) 
>
>Nice try.  Let's see how that works under the following assumptions:
>
>0) you enter the pool, with your average strength and average ability.
>   Suppose there are 10,000 players in this pool, all with perfect
>   ratings, and your strength entitles you to the average rating.
>
>1) the system becomes popular, and 20,000 new players enter.  Alas,
>   chess players just aren't as good as they used to be, so the average
>   strength of the 20,000 new players is well below the average
>   strength of the existing pool.  So - what happens to *your* rating,
>   assuming that your strength does not change?   Calculate it.
>
>Your goal was to have your rating remain the same, because your strength
>remains the same.  Does your proposal meet that goal?
>
>Read Elo!  If not for enlightenment, then as a tribute.  
>
>-- 
>Kenneth Sloan                   Computer and Information Sciences
>sloan@cis.uab.edu               University of Alabama at Birmingham
>(205) 934-2213                  115A Campbell Hall, UAB Station 
>(205) 934-5473 FAX              Birmingham, AL 35294-1170
>
I don't need to calculate it, I know what would happen. My rating would rise. 



Onar. 
Newsgroups: rec.games.chess
From: cayley@plains.NoDak.edu (Michele Cayley)
Subject: Re: Best player never to win the World Championship
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 04:59:17 GMT
Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computing Network


Newsgroups: rec.games.chess
From: linb@ucs.orst.edu (Benjamin Lin)
Subject: Re: cowboy crushes scratchy on ics
Organization: University Computing Services - OSU
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 16:57:21 GMT

In article <CUBAN.92Nov12091222@w20-575-31.mit.edu> cuban@athena.mit.edu (Federico A Garcia) writes:
>
>Ben,
>
>How did you manage to get an automail/mail listing of that game on
>ICS?  Neither of the two commands has worked in weeks.  Is this going
>to be fixed any time soon?
>
>-Fred Garcia

Nope, I couldn't use automail/mail either :-(
I just copied the moves from the screen.  That is why the game I posted
was incomplete...

-benoni

Newsgroups: rec.games.chess
From: hyde@cs.dal.ca (Bill Hyde)
Subject: Re: Gaprindashvilli's strength (was re: Fishcer with odds)
Organization: Math, Stats & CS, Dalhousie University, Halifax, NS, Canada
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 19:06:00 GMT


|> Fischer's a goon, and his comments may be more sexist bravado than anything
|> else, but I'd bet he knew what he was talking about at the time.
|> 
|> MADNESS
|> 
|> 


	As I pointed out a week or so ago, the Soviets did take
	Fischer up on his knight odds offer, but Fischer did not
	respond to their challenge.  Looks like he knew he couldn't
	give knight odds to Gaprindashvilli.

	In other words, you may well bet that Fischer knew what he
	was talking about, but he himself did not.


	I suspect that those who peg Gaprindashvilli's strength at
	2300 are underestimating her ability at the time by about
	100 points.  Perhaps someone with a copy of Dr. Elo's book
	could settle that point.



						Bill Hyde
Department of Oceanography
Dalhousie University,
Halifax, Nova Scotia
hyde@Ice.ATM.Dal.Ca or hyde@dalac