From: gordon@sneaky.lonestar.org (Gordon Burditt)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: separation of church and state
Date: 24 Jul 92 07:42:05 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: Gordon Burditt

>|> How about all of the values in the State and Federal criminal codes?
>
>For one thing they aren't "values", they're laws.  Do we need to teach
>the penal code to elementary school children?  Read on.

Is there really that much difference between "don't steal", "if you 
steal you will go to jail", and "stealing is wrong"?  The reason I
brought up the criminal code is that the crimes listed there are
those for which there is at least some societal agreement that
these things are wrong, not just some religion that claims they
are wrong.  The answer I give to "whose values?" is "those agreed
on by society in the form of its laws".  Someone's still going to
claim it's too contaminated with Christian values, but the fact remains
that people are expected to follow these rules, regardless of
their religion.

>|> To that we can add some values that apply to the time spent in school
>|> (these are probably taught but not enough):
>
>Your list is composed of rules, not values.  I have no problem with
>rules that help to maintain order.  A value, in my definition would 
>be something like "cheating is wrong".
>
>|> No cheating on tests.  (Teachers get to set the rules for what is acceptable 
>|> 	and what is cheating on a given test, e.g. open-book vs. closed-book)
>
>"If you're caught cheating on a test, you'll get a zero, because it
>will be assumed that you don't know the material."
>
>|> No weapons in school.  (Someone has to define "weapon" but guns, bombs,
>|> 	and certain kinds of knives qualify.)
>
>This sounds nice, but the only way you know if somebody brings a
>weapon to school is if she tries to use it, and then it's too late.  I
>don't know of any solution except permanent expulsion if you're caught
>with a weapon.

Not true.  Weapons can be discovered because another student finks (fearing
it will be used on him), because a teacher sees it, during locker searches
(not something I'd like to have as a regular practice, but necessary during
bomb scares - yes, my high school had a couple of bomb scares, although it 
was about as tame as you could get with regard to weapons, gangs, or school
violence), or with the latest craze in courtrooms (I was on jury duty
yesterday.  They had a metal detector set up.  The potential jury went through
it several times.  Just before jury selection, the defendant plea-bargained
5 counts of burglary into 30 years, and the jury was sent home) and schools, 
metal detectors.

There might be a little difference in the handling of a kid caught with
a metal steak knife in his locker vs. one setting up an ambush with
7 Uzis, a crate of hand grenades, and a locker full of dynamite.

>|> No smoking, drinking, or taking drugs (except by doctor's prescription)
>|> 	in school.
>
>This is unnecessary, except restricting smoking in buildings, as it
>affects others.  The same should apply to teachers and administrators
>if it applies to students.  Other types of drug use are not the
>school's jurisdiction.  If a student is being disruptive, then you
>throw him out for being disruptive.

Schools certainly claim they have jurisdiction over material brought
onto school property.  Most employers do, also.  Add to this that
students, except perhaps some of the older high-school students, can't 
legally purchase cigarettes, alcohol, or recreational drugs, and there is
justification for a restriction on students but not teachers.  If you
don't like that, get the law changed.

I'd hope the rules were at least that teachers and administrators also 
can't bring alcohol or recreational drugs (the variety you're supposed
to "Just Say No" to) onto school property, and that smoking, if allowed 
at all, is restricted to a few rooms.  (Is it really worth taxpayer money 
to set aside a student smoking lounge for use by maybe half the senior 
class who are over 18?)  Nobody's supposed to be taking prescription
drugs except under a prescription by a doctor, regardless of age.
Many employers don't let employees bring alcohol, drugs (illegal
variety), explosives (many come close to forbidding gasoline in your
car's gas tank, but not quite) and a variety of other stuff onto
company property.

Some schools claim considerable control over medicinal drugs, to
the exasperation of some parents.  The school is supposed to dispense
all drugs to students, including the case where a student is given
two aspirin to take at lunch, with the advice of a doctor and at
the direction of his parents.  This is probably a good thing for
lower-elementary school students who can't responsibly handle
remembering to take it, but it can cause problems.  A loud
shouting match that almost turned into a lawsuit developed over a
Jr. High girl who knew how to responsibly handle medication (as
demonstrated for a year at a previous school) for diabetes vs. a 
school nurse who said she had to handle the medicine but was too busy 
(and travelled between several schools on the same campus) to follow 
the schedule correctly, and often had substitutes who knew nothing 
of the girl's situation, and wouldn't give her the medication.  The 
girl was embarassed at having to run to the nurse all the time, and 
was intimidated by authority.  Result: girl ended up in the hospital 
for lack of medication.

This was overkill.  If parents give permission for students to
handle their own prescription medication, they should be able to.
If parents ask the school to help, the school should, within reason,
do so.

>|> No fighting in school (classes in boxing, wrestling, etc. being an
>|> 	exception).
>
>No fighting in class.  Fighting during recess should be ok if it's
>consensual.  It's going to happen anyway.  Teachers should protect
>students from getting beat up by bullies.

The exception I was thinking of was gym class, which when I was
in school actually included teaching the basics of wrestling.
As I understand it, teaching boxing in school is not unheard of,
either.

How does a teacher monitoring recess tell when a fight crosses the line 
between a consensual fist fight and one student getting severely beaten?
Hopefully the guideline is not the amount of spilled blood or a student
attempting to yell for a doctor.  Especially if the school has a
problem with violence, I don't think allowing consensual fights during
recess is a good idea, unless there are provisions for monitoring
the fight (not 2 teachers monitoring 8 fights and a couple hundred
other students, when the 8 fights suddenly become one big one) and 
having fighting rules to prevent it getting out of hand.  (Refereed 
wrestling or boxing is reasonable.  Where do you get the referees?)

>|> Learn to get along with people of different sexes, religions, races, gang
>|> 	affiliation, sexual orientation, and ethnic backgrounds in school.  
>|> 	These differences are not an exception to the "no fighting" rule.
>|> 	You don't have to approve of them or their attributes, but you
>|> 	do have to get along peacably.
>
>This sounds nice, but it's impossible to enforce "getting along"
>without being a LOT more specific.

No fighting.
No disrupting class with insults.
No refusing to work with an assigned partner for a project.
No refusing to let "them" sit next to you in class.
No threats of death or violence.
Refer to students in class by name, not by {race, religion, sex, ethnic
	background, etc.}.
No inciting violence with racial slurs (this one is going to need
	more clarification, obviously).  Insulting generalizations like
	"all Mexicans steal cars" or "Blacks are mentally inferior", or
	"the white race is favored by God" shouldn't be used regardless 
	of whether they are true or not.
 
>|> No sex in school.
>
>I don't see why not, as long as it's not disruptive.

Just where do you think students can have sex in school without it
being disruptive?  (Please do not say "in the Principal's office with
the Principal") I would expect that if two heterosexual students
having sex were spotted by other male heterosexual students, they
would try to claim "my turn next" and it would turn into a gang rape
(or a very tired and late-for-class female student).  And aren't
the students supposed to be doing something else during this 
time?

>|> No abortions in school.
>
>Kids don't generally perform abortions on each other, so this is just
>plain silly.  If there was an in-school clinic, I think abortions in
>school would be acceptable.

An in-school *SURGICAL* clinic?  Is this really necessary?  For something
other than emergency handling of shootings and knifings, and the
occasional nuclear detonation?

					Gordon L. Burditt
					sneaky.lonestar.org!gordon
Newsgroups: tx.politics