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Date:         Sat, 7 Nov 1992 14:15:18 -0700
From:         ERNESTOM@EPCC.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Trinity...

The KEY to understanding the Divinity of Jesus is found in His dual
nature. The Key is found in Isaiah 9:6, here Jesus is present as son
(child and man) and as GOD at the same time...Mighty God..Everlasting
Father.

                        JESUS IS GOD

                        - comparison -


    JEHOVA                                              JESUS CHRIST

Old Testament                                           New Testament
------------                                            -------------

Psa.  24:7-10.............Lord of Glory.................1 Cor. 2:7-8
Zec.  12:8-10...........Whom they Pierced...............Rev. 1:7
Psa.  45:6-7...........Your Throne, Oh God...............Heb. 1:8
Isa. 9:6................ A Child is Born.................Luke 2:11
Isa. 40:3-5............Prepare the Way for the Lord......Matt. 1:21,23
Isa. 7:14..............Emmanuel, God With us.............Matt. 1:21
Num. 21:6..............They tempted the Lord.............1 Cor. 10:9


read   Jn. 1:1   and  1Jn 5:20    and   1 Tim. 3:16
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Original_To:  CHRISTIA
Original_cc:  HUTTER
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 11:25:00 N
From:         Wolfgang Hutter <HUTTER@DULRUU51.BITNET>
Subject:      Re:CHRIST AS A ROLE MODEL.

In a message of Tue, 10 Nov 1992 14:03:00 EST
Received on Tue, 10 Nov 92 20:19 N
DRCV06::GRAHAM <GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL> wrote:

[I transscripted part of Dan's post to lower case to make it easier to
read - watch that CAPSLOCK-key, dude! - smile]

> i have mulled over the material presented on this topic and had my wife
> read some greek to me during lunch over the phone.  in both 1 corinthians
> 4:16 and 11:1 paul says to be imitators of him.  in the second case, he
> says that he imitates christ.  neither verse says that we should imitate
> christ, only paul.

As Ian already pointed out: if Paul imitates Christ and we imitate Paul
then we imitate Christ as well. I don't see the giant difference you
seem to perceive. Of course it's easier to follow a  * living *  role
model than to imitate Jesus directly. But I don't see the real issue. Is
there some kind of theological building behind this whole 'role model'
stuff?

> he is first, middle and last, our savior.  his blood purchases our
> individual salvation.  his life was not for us to see and try to imitate,
> it was so he could do the will of the father.  he did not keep the law
> perfectly to show we could do it, we cannot, not in our sinful bodies.

If I call Jesus my model then I am not at all saying that I am trying to
be righteous by imitating Him! I have been justified by His blood. I am
saved through grace alone without works. To imitate Jesus has nothing to
do with justification, but with love and thankfulness.

> if we set christ up as our example, we then fall into the "how am i doing"
> trap.  how you and i are doing is not important, what is important is how
> jesus is doing, and he is doing perfectly, thank you.

Be careful, Dan! How you and I are doing is not so important for our
salvation, but it is tremendously important for the unbelievers around
us. We can be inviting or we can be repulsive. And God will hold us
responsible for our walk!

Wolfgang <><
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 08:31:58 CST
From:         Tom Brewer <NOTTMB@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Point to Eric.
              11 Nov 1992 08:59:30 -0500 from <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>

Yo Eric:

Are you serious about this????

> but of course I reject the notion that God sovereignly controls each and
> every event in history.

If God is not in control, who is? Man? Satan?

Tom Brewer
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Date:         Fri, 13 Nov 1992 11:43:42 EST
From:         carol nemec <YA67@FERRIS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: KJV Bible on a server to download

I've heard that the OLB is also available in the NIV.  Does anyone
know if it is available for download?  I have the address
of where to buy it, but thought I'd check here first.
Thanks in advance.
Carol Nemec
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Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 07:53:30 -0700
From:         "(MARK DRAKE)" <DRAKE@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: CHRIST, NOT PURGATORY

> Remember that only Diety can possess inherent righteousness.  That
> is what I meant.

> Jesse

OK.  What is inherent righteousness.  I don't know what you mean by
that term.

Mark
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Date:         Thu, 12 Nov 1992 15:14:54 CST
From:         Tom Brewer <NOTTMB@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Whose will is dominant?
              12 Nov 1992 14:06:42 -0500 from <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>

Yo Eric:

> Ummm, sure, of course I agree with you, but this has nothing to do with
> the topic at hand. The question is, is man totally unable to realize,
> with the grace of God, that he needs to turn to God, that he is helpless
> without him, that he is powerless to accomplish any good, and that he
> must accept the sacrifice of Christ?

Ummm, no, I don't think so. The question is, is man totally unable to BELIEVE
that he needs to turn to God, that he is helpless without Him, that he is
powerless to accomplish any good, and that he must BELIEVE in the sacrifice
of Christ?

Answer: Yes. Without the Free and Sovereign Grace of God, man is unable to
        believe. Once again, see John 6 and 10. Man does not become a sheep
        because he believes; man believes because he is first a sheep. If he
        is not first a sheep given to Christ by the Father, he cannot and
        will not believe.

Saving Grace does not make a man realize; it makes a man believe!
Saving Grace does not help a man realize; it makes a man believe!
Saving Grace is irresistible Grace.
Saving Grace regenerates.
Saving Grace does not make salvation merely possible; it makes it actual!

Tom Brewer
========================================================================
"The greatest and most ancient Church known to God's people, founded and
 organized by the Father, Son and Holy Spirit at Jerusalem and spread to the
 hearts of believers everywhere, that Church which has the Word of God and
 faith which comes down to the elect after having been announced to men by
 the Prophets and Apostles. For with this Church, because of her divine
 origin, all men must agree ... and it is in her that the elect everywhere
 have maintained the Gospel of Jesus Christ."
    ---St. Thomas, Against Catholicism, c. 1992 A.D.
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Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 13:44:57 CST
Comments:     Answering received message
From:         THERESA BLACKWELL <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
Subject:      Trinity...

John,
Remember that the Trinity means that the three are one.
God the Father
God the Son
God the Holy Spirit...
Omnipresent, and Omnimpotent in all things.
Everywhere all the time.
He (Jesus) was with God when the World was formed.
"Let us create man in our own image..."  (Gen. 1...)
Hope this answered your question.
I hope this doesn't open a can of worms, gang.  That's just how
I've understood it all these years.
MHO, I promise.
"G"

 * <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 16:25:00 CDT
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      Re: comment on military
              Nov 10, 92 11:18 am

>
>Our son has been in the Navy almost 2 years now.  We went to
>his boot camp graduation.  Interesting fact...most of the men
>in boot camp attended church.  I don't remember if they had
>the choice or not.  I can't argue with the navy making it
>acceptable, but many of them had probably never be in church
>before boot camp.  I wonder how many continue to attend after.
>The navy obviously valued some religious experience, I wonder
>why?  Seems somewhat hypocritcal or something.
>
>Just a comment from my observations.
>
>Carol Nemec
>

Greater love hath no man that he should give his life for his brothers
(another badly ian revised version)..

There is nothing hipocritical about being in the armed forces and
being christian.. Taking delight out of wars and of killing people is
non christian, but wanting to protect  the freedoms and liberties that
our countries posses is a valid and nobel attribute.

A fitting thing to remember on this day, the 11th of November, Armistace
Day in Europe/Australia/New Zealand etc..


---------------------+-------------+-----------------------------------------
Ian Williams         |    _--_|\   |      Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems       |   /      \  |	  Phone	  : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia  |   \_.--*_/  |
                     |         v   |
From: YA67@FERRIS.BITNET (carol nemec)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Thought For The Day
Date: 12 Nov 92 16:00:46 GMT
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Comments:     Resent-From: carol nemec <YA67@FERRIS>
Comments:     Originally-From: Dan Galvin <galvin@tamuts.tamu.edu>
Comments:     Warning -- original Sender: tag was TFTD-L@TAMVM1

Thought some of you might enjoy this quote...
------------------------------- Original Message -------------------------------
             Public officials are not a group apart.  They inevitably
             reflect the moral tone of the society in which they live.

                                   -John F. Kennedy
                                    Message to Congress
                                    April 27, 1961
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Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1992 07:12:55 EST
From:         "SHELBY A. CROSS" <LIBSAC@EMUVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      Reply-Prayer Request-Benice

Dear Bernice,

Just a note to let you know  that we are still praying for your husband's
director's wife. My cousin was in a  coma for I believe it was two months
and he said that he could hear and  knew the people that came to see him.
So tell the  director to talk to his  wife just as if she  were awake and
to  encourage her  with good  words.  This has  been the  case for  other
people as  well who are  in a  coma. They just  can't respond to  us, but
they can hear us in many cases.

Dear Heavenly Father,

We praise you  and thank you for having this  situation under control. We
ask you  Father to  heal this  precious one and  make her  totally whole.
Please strengthen  her husband and the  rest of her family  at this time.
We thank you and  praise you for what you are doing  in Jesus Name. Amen.

Your sister in Christ,

Shelby--
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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 11:18:25 EST
From:         carol nemec <YA67@FERRIS.BITNET>
Subject:      comment on military

Our son has been in the Navy almost 2 years now.  We went to
his boot camp graduation.  Interesting fact...most of the men
in boot camp attended church.  I don't remember if they had
the choice or not.  I can't argue with the navy making it
acceptable, but many of them had probably never be in church
before boot camp.  I wonder how many continue to attend after.
The navy obviously valued some religious experience, I wonder
why?  Seems somewhat hypocritcal or something.

Just a comment from my observations.

Carol Nemec
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Original_To:  MAKS,KILROY,ANGELA,SEH,CHRISTIA
Original_cc:  HUTTER
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 13:46:00 N
From:         Wolfgang Hutter <HUTTER@DULRUU51.BITNET>
Subject:      Info request: WWCoG, Armstrong, The Plain Truth

Hi fellow CHRISTIAns!

A brother of mine has handed a magazine to me that is called "The Plain
Truth" (in Germany "Klar und Wahr"). It is edited by the Worldwide
Church of God, the founder of which was Herbert W. Armstrong
(1892-1986). Both the WWCoG and Armstrongs views have been discussed
somewhat on this list during this year. So I sent out this request to
all the people who contributed, but would also like input from others
who have information about them.

My questions are simple:

1) Would you classify them as fellow Christians? - Why (not)?
2) What are the points that you reject most strongly (if there are)?
3) What do you think about their magazine "The Plain Truth" and their TV
programs ("Die Welt von morgen" - I don't know the English title. The
translation of the German title is "The World of Tomorrow")?

As this is not really group related I'd propose personal replies. Anyone
who is interested can tell me so and I will post a summary to those who
are interested.

Thanks.

Wolfgang <><
From: Leo_W@QM.CIRCA.UFL.EDU (Leo W)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Scripturette 11/9
Date: 9 Nov 92 16:10:58 GMT
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X-Mailer: QuickMail/SMTP interface.

"Two people may have an argument.  They should go to the court.  And the judges
will decide the case.  They will declare one person to be right.  And they will
punish the one who is guilty" (Deuteronomy 25:1).

"After Adam sinned once, he was judged guilty.  But the gift of God is
different.  God's free gift came after many sins.  And the gift makes people
right with God" (Romans 5:16).

"So one sin of Adam brought the punishment of death to all people.  But in the
same way, one good act that Christ did makes all people right with God.  And
that brings true life for all" (Romans 5:18).

"So now, those who are in Christ Jesus are not judged guilty.  I am not judged
guilty because in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit that brings life made me
free.  It made me free from the law that brings sin and death.  The law was
without power, because the law was made weak by our sinful selves.  But God did
what the law could not do.  He sent his own Son to earth with the same human
life that others use for sin.  He sent his Son to be an offering to pay for
sin.  So God used a human life to destroy sin.  He did this so that we could be
right as the law said we must be.  Now we do not live following our sinful
selves, but we live following the Spirit" (Romans 8:1-4).

Yours in Christ Jesus,
Leo

Scriptures quoted from the International Children's Bible (ICB), New Century
Version, copyright 1986, 1988 by Word Publishing, Dallas, Texas 75039.  Used by
permission.
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Organization: Temple University/SCT Computer Services
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Sat, 7 Nov 1992 17:12:58 EDT
From:         "Roger A. Phyall" <ROGER@TEMPLEVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Trinity

On Fri, 6 Nov 1992 15:39:00 EST Liz Moreau said:
>
>I look at this all from a different view.  IMHO, the Spirit descended
>on him in the form of a dove for the benefit of us.  So the crowd that
>was gathered would believe and also because a sign was promised to John
>the Baptist so he would know the Son of God.

Let alone the voice of God saying:  "This is my beloved Son in Whom I am well
  pleased."  Now that gets the old gears churning!

> ......                                       Jesus didn't need an
>empowering of the Holy Spirit, He was always a part of the Trinity.
>
Yes, and one thinks of the little boy Jesus teaching in the temple and saying:
"I must be about my Father's business."
Question....Does this indicate the presence of the Holy Spirit within Jesus at
this time?  OR - Does this just indicate that Jesus knew whereof He came and
was of and what He was supposed to do as willed (asked of) Him by the Father?
If one goes with and by the latter, then one can *humanise* the Trinity in this
way:

     GOD sees Man which He created cannot of himself be in obedience to Himself
and requires a means (WAY) to return to His Grace.  GOD then decides to perform
the essence Himself of the statement:  "No greater love has a man than to lay
down his life for his fellow man!"  God then ASKS the SON/WORD (Himself) to do
this action; "And the Word was made Flesh...."; "And the Word was God...."
In human terms then, the Son became as of the Word becoming Flesh or God became
flesh in order to lay down His life for His creation Man!!!!
We then can see that the descending of the Holy Spirit at the baptism of Jesus
as the RE-UNITING of God with Himself in Earthly form or flesh.  This would
argue that the Holy Spirit was not present or needed by Jesus until this act of
obedience to the Father by Him(Jesus).  This would also argue how and when the
Trinity came into existence.

     Other, furthur thoughts?

|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
|                            |    Cordially & Sincerely yours,  |
| Temple University (038-15) |                                  |
| Computer/Math Bldg. Rm 851 |         Roger A. Phyall          |
| Broad St. & Montgomery Av. |       VM System Programmer       |
| Philadelphia,PA 19122-2585 |          (215) 787-1292          |
|                            |                                  |
|        Internet:           |              Bitnet:             |
|   ROGER@VM.TEMPLE.EDU      |           ROGER@TEMPLEVM         |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 14:40:47 CST
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: WHAT WE OFFER GOD?
              10 Nov 1992 14:08:00 -0500 from <eje@IRENAEUS.MLO.DEC.COM>

OK Eric ;

We shall do zit agin like zie 4th grade class and RE PEAT it justa once uh
more.

Seriously Eric ... if you say that the will of man is merely weakened by
the Fall, how do you reconcile that with Paul's words :




"Their minds are DARKENED"

"No ONE SEEKS after God.

"AS for you, you were Spiritually DEAD in your sins and traspasses."

"The mind of sinful man is ENMITY with God."

"The mind of sinful man does not submit to the law of God, indeed it CANNOT."


Now, Eric do these Words sound like FREEDOM or LIMITATION due to a corpse
like condition commonly known as   D E A T H  ?

Further, when Jesus says that "No one CAN COME to me, unless my Father has
ENABLED him"  how is the will of man ACTIVELY ABLE to come to Christ just
by willing to do so, APART from the Regenerating Work of the Spirit of God?


Jesse Carnes
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Date:         Sun, 8 Nov 1992 13:14:48 CST
Comments:     Answering received message
From:         THERESA BLACKWELL <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
Subject:      His Blood ...

It is his atoning Blood that he shed for all Christians everywhere.
The Bible says, "For without the shedding of blood, there is no
remission of sin."
Jesus died on Calvary for all mankind.
NO OTHER sacrifice would do... NO OTHER LAMB was as spotless, or as
pure.
That's the meaning behind the song.
I see your point, but still stand by the particular verse quoted above.
Christ died, and yet rose again, therefore lives forever.
He's coming back, too.... REALLY SOON.
I can feel it.
:)

 * <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1992 10:39:26 CST
Comments:     Answering received message
From:         THERESA BLACKWELL <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
Subject:      Thanks, from a fellow musician...

Shelby's post really meant lots to me.  Music is a healer sometimes,
.... I speak from personal experience. After David and I broke up last
February, I figured...."I'll not find another person like him ...ever"
Was really depressed there for a little while.  Had it not been for
the prayers of those on this list, and the encouragement of my pastor,
and the HIDEOUS music exams I had to prepare for, I would have gone
bonkers.... literally.
Music soothes and comforts, and like you said, Shelby, can tell someone
what's really on our hearts.  There were times that David and I would just
sit in the car, and listen to the radio (classical/jazz/rock....)
and there would be a song that would play that could tell him just what
I felt.... wow, huh?
To this day, I can't listen to "Heart in Motion", or "Chicago 21" without
thinking of him.
GEESH!
Anyway, this is not such a bad deal, ...God has allowed us to continue as
friends.
I praise Him for that.
AND for posts like the one I'm responding to.
God Bless !

 * <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: rolfe@dsuvax.dsu.edu (Tim Rolfe)
Subject: Re: The Gospel
Organization: Dakota State University
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 17:51:04 GMT

In <CHRISTIA%92111307255199@ASUACAD.BITNET> "Jesse (laughing all day) Carnes" <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET> writes:

>Dear Tim Rolf ;
(I believe this is the second request --- PLEASE get my name right!)

>A question : "How do you KNOW that my interpretation is allegedly private
>rather than in agreement with the Scriptures?"

>Second, if you read the Scriptures and STILL agree with Rome, then either you
>have not read what Rome REALLY teaches in their OFFICIAL stuff vs. what you
>get in your perishchurch, OR your hermeneutics are coloured by Rome's
>presuppositions, in my opinion.  You might be bending the Scriptures around
>your Romish presuppositions.


>Jesse Carnes

I.e., I disagree with Pope Jesse.

Private interpretation doesn't eliminate an infallible Pope; it multiplies
the position by the myriads and myriads of myriads.  And then the
excommunications REALLY start to fly!

It would appear that Pope Jesse would allow me to read and interpret the
scriptures for myself --- unless I come up disagreeing with him.

If we're to descend to name-calling in place of charitable discussion, one
might wonder about another person's bending the Scriptures around to
rabidly anti-Catholic presuppositions.
-- 
                                              --- Tim Rolfe
                                           rolfe@dsuvax.dsu.edu
                                            ROLFE@SDNET.BITNET

-- 
                                              --- Tim Rolfe
                                           rolfe@dsuvax.dsu.edu
                                            ROLFE@SDNET.BITNET
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Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 20:42:00 EST
From:         MSIMMON1@ITHACA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Blood of Christ

I am puzzled, this message (about the cleansing powers of Jesus's blood) is
signed by Theresa Black, but the return address (from the address page) is
that of Angela Zimmerman -
I trust that this is not an attempt to impersonate someone, Angela.
MCS-IC
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