HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: stevenst@iaserv.b1.ingr.com (Todd Stevens)
Subject: Re: Jesus vs. Scouts Final Chapter!
Organization: ingr
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 12:37:09 GMT

Thanks to all for the wonderful advice and great ideas.  I was formally 
"indoctrinated" last Saturday in basic training by some very devoted, 
enthusiastic and "fun" leaders.  My first den meeting is this Thursday night 
and I'm actually looking forward to it.  So far no permanent assistants, but 
two parents have agreed to stay for this meeting after using some parental 
involvement techniques learned at training (i.e., ask bluntly, threaten den 
dissolvement, and wait patiently for someone to volunteer)!

Yours in Scouting,

Todd Stevens
stevenst@iaserv.b1.ingr.com

Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: jce@cs.scarolina.edu (James C. Evans)
Subject: Re: Jesus vs. Cub Scouts?
Organization: USC  Department of Computer Science
Date:  9 Oct 92 19:03:46 GMT

stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:

>If Mr. Stevens
>cannot accept the reality that Christianity is but one OPINION of
>God's relationship with mankind, and not THE opinion or THE Word,
>it can seriously affect his ability to work with boys who do not
>share his religious beliefs, and thus his ability to serve as a
>Cub Scout leader.

Stan,

What about one's ability to work with boys who don't share your
religious belief in the existence of a certain kind of God?

Chris Evans
jce@ocean.geol.scarolina.edu
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.atheism
From: stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger)
Subject: Re: Jesus vs. Cub Scouts?
Organization: Summit NJ
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 18:54:06 GMT
Followup-To: alt.atheism

Merlyn LeRoy writes:
>Stan Krieger writes:
> >Todd Stevens writes:
>...
> >>.............  As a Christian,
> >>I would find it extremely difficult to award someone for any work done to 
> >>further beliefs that discredit Jesus as Lord and Savior.  I was wondering
> >>how other Christian scout leaders have handled this moral dilemma.
>...
> >Before I answer the question itself, I feel I need to address the tone of
> >Mr. Stevens' posting.  I consider it blatantly anti-Semitic, anti-Islam,
> >anti-Buddhist, anti-Hindu, and anti-any and every other religion that
> >Scouts worldwide observe and are encouraged to observe......
>...
> >In closing: Mr. Stevens, now that you are a youth group leader,
> >I strongly suggest you learn to show a little tolerance toward
> >those who do not share your religious beliefs.......
>
>Stan, you are the most blatant hypocrite I have even seen, and I've
>seen Ted Kaldis.  Every single point you've raised applies to atheist
>scouts, yet you display EXACTLY the same disgust towards atheist scouts
>that this yoyo displays towards non-christian scouts.  Don't like your
>own poisonous medicine, eh?
>
>Maybe, just maybe, you might understand why it's not a good idea to
>impose your religious orthodoxy on other people.  But I doubt it.

The points I raised do NOT apply to atheists, and I'd wish you'd stop
cluttering up rec.scouting with your anti-religion agenda!!!

A religious belief is a POSITIVE moral value, and a value that children
should be encouraged to adopt.   The issue in these postings is that
a BSA unit adult leader was unable to respect legitimate RELIGIOUS
beliefs different from his own.  It had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with
atheism.

You KNOW the BSA policy in the area of religion, and you know WHY it's
a BSA policy.  Trying to equate tolerance toward atheism with tolerance
towards legitimate religious beliefs and values is like trying to compare
apples and oranges.  Religion/atheism is a TOTALLY separate issue from
respecting others RELIGIONS.
-- 
Stan Krieger                 All opinions, advice, or suggestions, even
UNIX System Laboratories     if related to my employment, are my own.
Summit, NJ
smk@usl.com
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: hunter@master.lds-az.loral.com (Bill Hunter)
Subject: Computer Help
Followup-To: rec.scouting
Organization: Loral Defense Systems - Arizona
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 16:34:16 GMT

I have seen advertisments in Scouter Magazine for Scout computer software. 
When I called for info I was told it is really best suited for an IBM.

I have a MAC.  I love my MAC.  I will not give up my MAC.  Does anyone know
of a software package availale for the MAC that works.


Bill Hunter
Scoutmaster, The Vertical Edge
Loral Defense Systems - Arizona
1300 S. Litchfield Rd.
Goodyear, AZ  85338
PH 602 925 7929  Fax 602 925 6988
From: gal3666@sage.cc.purdue.edu (John Galvin)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: high adventure
Date: 13 Oct 92 01:04:09 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center

Hi fellow scouters.

My name is John Galvin. I am a student at Purdue University.  Over the past 
few month I have been
working on a High Adventure program for the Muskingum Valley Scout Reservation 
in Coshocton
Ohio.  We are starting final reviews of the program and are looking for 
criticism and ideas that may
help it to be the best program available.  If you Are interested in looking at 
the program or have Ideas
that might be worth while let me know. Your Input is greatly appreciated. 
Thanks for you help. 

In Scouting 
John Galvin
Eagle class 83

my mail address is gal3666@sage.cc.purdue.edu
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: mwilson@orl.mmc.com (Mark Wilson)
Subject: Re: Does his leadership still count?
Reply-To: mwilson@orl.mmc.com
Organization: Martin Marietta Orlando
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 21:13:15 GMT

In article 17512@cbnewsl.cb.att.com, stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:
>Here's a BSA advancement question.  There has been a difference of
>opinion over it among typical members of Boards of Review-
.. long post omitted ...

If there is a written record of any kind (old handbook, old troop record book,
advancement card, advancement wall poster) any where, then count it.

If the Scoutmaster from back then is still around and is willing to attest to
it, then count it.

A Star candidate should probably have a leadership position in the troop anyway.
If he does, and it takes a reasonable amount of time (say one month per merit
badge), he would have met the requirement anyway.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Wilson                              Martin Marietta E,I & M Group
mwilson@orl.mmc.com                      Mail Point 170
Phone: (407)356-6386                     P.O. Box 555837
Fax:   (407)436-5482                     Orlando, FL, 32855-5837
My opinions are my opinions, Martin Marietta can speak for itself.

Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: wizzard@wam.umd.edu (The Wizzard)
Subject: Re: OA
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 01:08:00 GMT

In article <1992Oct6.023035.20477@wuecl.wustl.edu> gl1@cec2.wustl.edu (Greg Lyon) writes:
>   The way that Shawn Scoles mentioned elections being held was the exact same
>way in which the two somewhat "rigged" elections were held.  In both cases, the
>elections were run by non-troop members.
>
>   In the case of my election, my ASM hinted strongly that the scouts should
>vote for his friend.
>
>   In the case of the election, I ran, the SM of the troop came right out
>and said that people should vote for him.
>
I must be lucky then.  In the approximately 7 elections I have witnessed,
neither the SM or ASMs voiced their opinions.  I guess the best thing to do in
that case is to give your troop committee chairman a call and see if he (or 
she) can tell the SM/ASMs to keep their opinions to themselves because the vote
is to be left to the scouts.  The scouts should not feel like they are going
to be pressured in to voting for certain people.  The committee chairman 
should keep you anonymous if you request him/her to do so.
If this does not work, I do not know what to suggest.  Talk to your local OA
chapter or local council.

>   I agree that these elections are totally against the concepts of Scouting and
>the OA, but I must ask what is an election team member supposed to do ?

He should tell the scouts what they should look for in an OA candidate and do
as much as he can to keep the SM/ASMs out of the election process.

>
>   In both cases, the team stressed that it was up to the scouts to choose and 
>that the vote would be secret.  But, it is impossible to prevent a Scoutmaster
>from saying what he wants, and if you try, there is a chance that the SM
>could simply ask you to leave.

Again, if you feel this is a problem, talk to your committee chairman and
he should be able to give you an idea of how to deal with this problem.


It is very unfortunate that things like this happen.  It undermines the
credibility of the SM/ASMs of the troop and the meaning of the OA.

Signed,
  Shawn Scoles
  Eagle Class of 1988
  ASM of Troop 299, Hyattsville, MD




Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: oakes@rtsg.mot.com (Ronald Oakes)
Subject: Re: I NEED HELP PLEASE!!
Reply-To: oakes@rtsg.mot.com
Organization: Motorola Inc., Cellular Infrastructure Group
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 15:37:39 GMT

In article <1992Oct13.153832.12125@usl.edu>, mxc1059@usl.edu (Carroll Matthew) writes:
|> Hello fellow scouters
|> 
|> I have a problem that someone may be able to help with.
|> 
|> I am an assistant scoutmaster for a small boyscout troup.
|> The boys range from age 12 to 17, with most of them 13 and 14.  The problem is that the scoutmaster is an excellent leader who is hardworking and VERY devoted to scouting.  His problem is that he doesn't provide enough enjoyment to the
|> scouts.  We seldom go camping and when we do, they have to stay together and not go far.  I guess he's overprotective.  I'm 22 so I have no problems interacting with the boys.  From what they tell me, they are not enjoying scouting very 
|> much.  The older boys, who are all close to eagle, have more than once asked me to start a seperate troop of scouts.  I respect the scoutmaster and know that
|> he is doing a good job, but how do I tell him that his program needs work?
|> What should I do and how should I handle it?
|> 
|> Thanks in advance
|>  Matthew Carroll
|> Troop 459
|> Church Point, La.
|> 

Start by talking with your Unit Commissioner and Troop Committee Chariperson.
Have them recommend that your Scoutmaster get re-trained either by taking the
Scoutmastership Fundementals course, or by helping staff it.  It sounds to me
like he needs to be reminded of how the scouting program is to be run.

You should also talk with him and let him know that the boys would like to go
on more outings, and are capable of running these outings.  Suggust that the
older boys could help by planning an outing for the entire troop, including 
the program.

The boys should be doing much -- if not all -- of the work of planing the program.
This counts for both the long term program plans, and the plans for each event.
If you have a number of older boys, then there should be the experience there
to do this planing.

If you have not taken the Scoutmastership Fundamentals, you should do so also.

I hope you can fix these problems before you lose any scouts.

Ronald B. Oakes
  Scoutmaster
  Troop 91, Palatine IL
From: hay@shannon.ee.wits.ac.za (Angus Hay)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Using Computers in Scouting
Date: 13 Oct 92 15:39:39 GMT
Article-I.D.: shannon.hay.718990779
Organization: Electrical Engineering, University of the Witwatersrand

In <1992Sep25.214431.16513@bernina.ethz.ch> macman@bernina.ethz.ch (Danny Schwendener) writes:

>>I'm putting together a training session on "Using Computers in Scouting."
>>The focus is on applications. I have already covered the usual uses (databases
>>newsletters, certificates, etc). 

>I'm using the computer to get many creative parts of the activities done.
>For this, I need to give some preliminary explanations on scouting
>activities in Switzerland.

>In addition, I use the computer for all the 'standard' work, such as
>writing newsletters, creating letterheads, holding databases of my cubs,
>of possible games, and to exchange experiences with other scout leaders
>through the net, as I'm doing right now (you have to think about it to
>realize that you need a computer for that).
  
Obviously, I can include this last list in my uses of computers in
Scouting. However, the most fun we have had has been in creating 
interesting, exciting (and often tricky to run) bases on night hikes
and wides games. We have had everything from time machines, to
mafia computers to be cracked, to an automated morse sender. The
sky is the limit, if you have the imagination. I have even used
parts of computer games as challenges. Not to mention using computer
games as an activity at a fund-raising drive.

Could you post your findings about the use of computers in Scouting?

Angus Hay, Troop Scouter, 1st Greenside, Johannesburg, South Africa
Assistant Area Commissioner (Development), Transvaal Area



-- 
     *   *  Angus Hay, Dept of Electrical Engineering,   
    **   *  University of the Witwatersrand,                 
   *******  Private Bag 3, WITS, 2050, New South Africa   
  *  *   *  Internet: hay@nyquist.ee.wits.ac.za Tel:(27)(11)716-5423
 *   *   *  NeXTmail: hay@turing.ee.wits.ac.za  Fax:(27)(11)403-1929
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: hunter@master.lds-az.loral.com (Bill Hunter)
Subject: Knots: too much bother
Followup-To: rec.scouting
Organization: Loral Defense Systems - Arizona
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 15:36:26 GMT

Fellow Scouters,

Too much attention on knots only takes away from the program.  We are not
Scout Leaders to fill our chests with knots.  After 10 years as a Scout
leader of a large and active Troop, I wear but one:  The Eagle.

My awards are in the faces of my boys.  Nothing else really matters.

Put your time in your boys, not in collecting knots.

Bill Hunter
Scoutmaster, The Vertical Edge
Loral Defense Systems - Arizona
1300 S. Litchfield Rd.
Goodyear, AZ  85338
PH 602 925 7929  Fax 602 925 6988
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: jpk@Ingres.COM (Jon Krueger)
Subject: Re: Jesus vs. Cub Scouts?
Reply-To: jpk@Ingres.COM (Jon Krueger)
Organization: Ask Computer Systems Inc., Ingres Division, Alameda CA 94501
Date: 11 Oct 92 04:50:20 GMT

Todd Stevens writes:
> I was greatly disturbed to read about the Buddhist, Hindu, Islamic
> and Jewish emblems that I, serving in a leadership position, might
> have to award as an achievement someday.  As a Christian, I would
> find it extremely difficult to award someone for any work done to 
> further beliefs that discredit Jesus as Lord and Savior.

Practically, you needn't award anything you don't like to.  A Scout
troop isn't a one-leader affair.

But perhaps this is avoiding the issue.  Look: Scouting isn't
Christianity.  They're two different things.  As a Christian, a
Scouter, and someone who understands the difference between the two, I
have no problem with awarding a Scout for work well done towards
understanding and living his faith, whatever that faith might be.

-- Jon

--
Jon Krueger  jpk@ingres.com
From: jce@cs.scarolina.edu (James C. Evans)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Jesus vs. Cub Scouts?
Date: 8 Oct 92 20:34:37 GMT
Organization: USC  Department of Computer Science

stevenst@iaserv.b1.ingr.com (Todd Stevens) writes:

>Having been practically coerced into becoming an assistant den leader 
>for my son's bear den, I figured I'd better read through his bear book
>to see what I was getting myself into.  In chapter 2 I read about the
>Emblems of Faith Achievement where the scout receives the Religious
>Emblem Square Knot.  I was greatly disturbed to read about the Buddhist,
>Hindu, Islamic and Jewish emblems that I, serving in a leadership
>position, might have to award as an achievement someday.  As a Christian,
>I would find it extremely difficult to award someone for any work done to 
>further beliefs that discredit Jesus as Lord and Savior.  I was wondering
>how other Christian scout leaders have handled this moral dilemma.  I just
>hope it remains a hypothetical situation for me!


>Todd Stevens
>stevenst@iaserv.b1.ingr.com

At least you are up-front with how you feel about this.  I'd be
willing to guess that a very large number of scout leaders feel exactly
as you do, but are unwilling to admit it.  And that's exactly why
the only way to provide real equal treatment--not just idealistic
lip service--for Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, and Jews, as well as
for people who believe in a kind of God that does not have the
endorsement of any traditional sect, is to eliminate the religious
component from BSA entirely.  Use the same principles as in the
public schools.  That way, everyone is protected from the other guy's
religious beliefs, and not be untrue to his/her own.
In that sense, I agree with Tod. 

Chris Evans
jce@ocean.geol.scarolina.edu
From: jmcc@ticipa.pac.sc.ti.com (John McCollum)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Fund raising ideas (run 2)
Date: 14 Oct 92 18:16:11 GMT
Article-I.D.: ticipa.1992Oct14.181611.1262
Organization: Texas Instruments

In article <1992Oct14.132957.20675@bernina.ethz.ch> macman@bernina.ethz.ch (Danny Schwendener) writes:

>
>So I'd like to ask a question to every one on this list: How do you
>raise funds for your unit (in addition to the permanent funds you
>receive from your council or charting organization). 
>
>-- Danny Schwendener         macman@bernina.ethz.ch
>   Wolfsmeute Nidau/Glockenhof, Sihlstr. 33, CH-8001 Zurich, Switzerland
>   m.h.c. Troop 14, San Francisco


  Popcorn sales!  This is a highly organized effort by the entire Circle
Ten Council (Texas).  Last year, our troop of about 25 boys netted 
approximately $1500.  The best part is that the popcorn is a good product
and people are actually asking for it.

Keep Scouting,
John McCollum                          jmcc@ticipa.mtc.ti.com
ASM, Troop 895
Richardson, Texas
From: hay@shannon.ee.wits.ac.za (Angus Hay)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Campfire Stories
Date: 13 Oct 92 15:42:45 GMT
Article-I.D.: shannon.hay.718990965
Organization: Electrical Engineering, University of the Witwatersrand

In <pkteagarden.36@bobcat.lmc.edu> pkteagarden@bobcat.lmc.edu (Phil Teagarden) writes:

>Some of my fondest memories in Scouting were around the old campfire...
>especially storytelling time.  We had a great Scoutmaster who knew just the 

In our Troop, we've never quite got the storytelling bit right (as far
back as I can remember, anyway). We're great on campfire songs, skits,
games and so on. I think it really depends on the individual 
(Scoutmaster, that is). Does anyone have any suggestions?

Angus Hay, Troop Scouter, 1st Greenside, Johannesburg, South Africa


-- 
     *   *  Angus Hay, Dept of Electrical Engineering,   
    **   *  University of the Witwatersrand,                 
   *******  Private Bag 3, WITS, 2050, New South Africa   
  *  *   *  Internet: hay@nyquist.ee.wits.ac.za Tel:(27)(11)716-5423
 *   *   *  NeXTmail: hay@turing.ee.wits.ac.za  Fax:(27)(11)403-1929
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: smackinnon@mta.ca
Subject: Re: Jesus vs. Scouts Final Chapter!
Reply-To: smackinnon@mta.ca
Organization: Mount Allison U, Sackville, N.B. Canada 
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 01:45:20 GMT

>
>When you're up, you're up           (stand up)
>And when you're down, you're down   (sit down)
>And when you're only half way up    (stand half way up)
>You're nowhere to be found          (search with hand to forehead)

 But if we are to assume that Barclay incident to be true, can you see 
where you are in transit?

>
>KISMIF
>Mark Wilson
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Mark Wilson                              Martin Marietta E,I & M Group
>mwilson@orl.mmc.com                      Mail Point 170
>Phone: (407)356-6386                     P.O. Box 555837
>Fax:   (407)436-5482                     Orlando, FL, 32855-5837
>My opinions are my opinions, Martin Marietta can speak for itself.
>
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: jgcombs@uceng.UC.EDU (Joseph Combs)
Subject: Troop mascots
Organization: University of Cincinnati, Engineering College
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 14:59:28 GMT

Just curious. Do any other troops out there have any type of interesting 
mascot ?  Our troop uses the Roadrunner.  One of our former leaders is a 
professional sign painter so we have a six foot Roadrunner (of looney tunes
fame) painted on the back doors of our equipment trailers and in our troop
letterhead.
				Joe
_______________________________________________________________________________
|Joe Combs                           |                                        |
|jgcombs@uceng.uc.edu                |      "Verbosity leads to unclear,      |
|ASM Troop 24, Dan Beard Council     |           inarticulate things."        |
|Cincinnati, Ohio                    |         - Vice President Dan Quayle    |
|Eagle Class of 1990                 |                                        |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: anthropo@carina.unm.edu (Dominick V. Zurlo)
Subject: Re: Jesus vs. Cub Scouts?
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 92 16:05:34 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

In article <1992Oct7.084925.29548@aber.ac.uk> mfd@aber.ac.uk (Margaret Frances Disbury) writes:
>In article <1992Oct5.214737.1354@infonode.ingr.com> stevenst@iaserv.b1.ingr.com (Todd Stevens) writes:
>>I have a responsibility to share Jesus Christ with the world, but not to force
>>it upon anyone.  The problem I have is being viewed in any way as PROMOTING a 
>>false belief.
>
>It's back to semantics school, people.  "Belief" in this context is dealing
>with one person's objectively-unverifiable faith.  Therefore it is not possible
>to describe any belief contrary to your own as false.
>BTW, I don't hold that faith
>is bad, on the contrary, it is very good.  My one MAJOR beef is that the vast
>majority of people are completely unable to separate faith from religion and
>this is what causes the problems.  What is wrong with the idea that there is
>but one deity and that as people vary in their physical and mental 
>characteristics, they will also vary in the way they approach that deity ?
 I agree, and this is simply a question for thinking about since everyone 
keeps assuming (and please tell me if I'm wrong) that we're only talking
about monotheistic religions.  What about religions or beliefs with more 
tahn one deity?  Does the Scouting movement prohibit that?  I was thinking
about this because of the phrase in the BSA Oath "To do my duty to God..."
does this mean that polytheistic religions are not acceptable?  I don't
think I've ever seen anything regarding this before, just the all-inclusive
yes, any faith is acceptable, but are multi-deity faiths acceptable??
>
WWW
Dominick V. Zurlo
Eagle Scout '87
blacklisted '88


Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: stevenst@iaserv.b1.ingr.com (Todd Stevens)
Subject: MS Word Cub Scout Emblem Template?
Organization: ingr
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 12:36:55 GMT

As the subject line says, is there one and how would I get it?  As a Den 
Leader, I would like to be able to send out letters with the CS Emblem to 
scouts and their parents using MS Word for Windows 2.0.

Thanks,

Todd Stevens
stevenst@iaserv.b1.ingr.com
From: jlinder@Bonnie.ICS.UCI.EDU (Darrow Linder)
Subject: Re: Knots
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Date: 14 Oct 92 01:16:40 GMT

I myself wear the eagle knot and must say that knots (while I was an up
an coming Eagle) seemed to be the most boring thing to do.  Well, my
troop made a game out of it.  Between relays and Camporee competition,
our troop did rather well (winning the Camporee 1 time and placing top three
four years in a row).  As for spending time with the boys, well, that was
taken care of too.  Believe me, when your a little Tenderfoot scout, winning
a Camporee as a result of the knots and such you practiced so many times
on and getting praise from adult leaders (not to mention a hefty steak
dinner) made it all worth the while.  Still to this day, I use many of
these knots nearly everyday.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Darrow Linder   jlinder@Bonnie.ics.uci.edu     University of California Irvine
------------------------------------------------------------------------------