HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: wood@siemens.com. (Jim Wood)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Too straight looking to be gay
Date: 3 Sep 92 13:57:32 GMT
Distribution: usa

tittle@ics.uci.edu (Cindy Tittle Moore) writes:
[with my apologies for editing most of the article]

> vanyel@camelot.bradley.edu (Alan Williams) writes:
>>I don't like "nelly" behavior.  Period.  I've received nothing on here to
>>suggest that I *should*--only flames for not thinking like *you*.

>And I think (and evidently so do many others) that this is a VERY important
>question for you to ask yourself because, as a gay man, you're really going to
>be unhappy with yourself if you're homophobic on top of it all.

Yes, the crux of the matter is that we are fed years and years of constant
reinforcement that feminine behavior in men is unacceptable!  Many gay men
(including me many years ago) are repelled by effeminate behavior precisely
because there is a definite link in the straight world between it and male
homosexuality.  Putting the unfounded religious arguments against homosexuality
aside for now, this link with stereotypical effeminate behavior in men is
the strongest reason for society's rejection of male homosexuality.

Hence many gay men come to accept their own homosexuality by rejecting
effeminate behavior in men, and some will go further in their rejection than
the straight world does.  It is unfortunate, because there is no scientific
link between effeminacy and male homosexuality (and masculinity and female
homosexuality):  there are effeminate straight men, masculine gay men,
feminine lesbians, and masculine straight women.

Of equal importance and interest is the mirror question of lesbians, masculine
behavior in women, and society's acceptance of lesbians and/or masculine
women.  I know many lesbians, several of whom have strong masculine influences,
several of whom have strong feminine influences, and several of whom cannot
be so pigeonholed.  However, I do not know any who are repelled by their peer
lesbians who exhibit overtly masculine behavior.

--
Jim Wood [jwood@siemens.siemens.com] (609) 734-3643
"Rise up on the wings of eagles, and two step among the stars.
 You are not forgotten.  Your smile will echo forever."
   -- Ryerson Schwark, to my friend Rob Bernardo.
From: roger@quantime.co.uk (Roger Phillips)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Too straight looking to be gay
Date: 1 Sep 92 02:05:25 GMT
Reply-To: roger@quantime.co.uk (Roger Phillips)
Organization: Quantime Ltd, London (software for market research)

In article <1992Aug31.203251.25057@microsoft.com>,
bobsarv@microsoft.com (Bob Sarver) verbigerates.
> What is it Voltaire said? "I may not agree with a word you say, Sir,
> but I will defend to the death your right to say it"?

"I disapprove of what you say,
but I will defend to the death your right to say it,"
was attributed to Voltaire by S.G. Tallentyre.

According to Byron,
"When Voltaire was asked why
no woman has ever written a tolerable tragedy,
'Ah (said the Patriarch)
the composition of a tragedy requires _testicles_.'"
-- 
Roger Phillips                            roger@quantime.co.uk
"*Pooter* n. a petit bourgeois, conventional and unimaginative"
-- Chambers English Dictionary (1988)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: fjvwing@cs.vu.nl (FJ!!)
Subject: Re: Bernard Sumner: Is he?
Organization: Fac. Wiskunde & Informatica, VU, Amsterdam
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 11:10:17 GMT

chucki@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Chucki Carpinello-Grigsby) writes:
>I was just wondering if anybody knows whether or not Bernard Sumner is gay. 
>It sure seems like he is!  (Bernard Sumner is the lead singer for New Order
>and Electronic.)

You know, last week, I was working at the bar and I could've sworn....
I couldn't stare and really check out if it was Bernard, for he had
noticed me staring and was watching me to see if I looked again. Then
he stepped out of a shadow, and it wasn't him...I think.

On the other hand, does anybody know if Rob & Chad Lowe have a younger
hyperblond brother?
							FJ!!
From: jf@threel.co.uk (John Fisher)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Out and About
Date: 3 Sep 92 13:50:27 GMT
Organization: 3L Ltd, 86/92 Causewayside, Edinburgh EH9 1PY, UK


This week I've been interviewed twice for TV, as a
representative of our phoneline.  Today it was a news story
about gay men being blackmailed; a brief snatch of it
appeared in the early evening news magazine broadcast to
the Glasgow and Edinburgh area.  I looked, well, very
respectable.  Solid, you might say.  Even Bob Sarver would
not have been alarmed. 

Yesterday it was part of a `featurette', as the producer
called it, on gay relationships, as part of the same news
magazine, with me once again speaking for the phoneline. 
This will be shown next week (STV Scotland Today, 6pm
Friday 11 Sept, fans). 

It's strange how this worried me.  After all, I'm out to
more-or-less everyone I know, and I've been quoted in the
press before now.  As queers go, I have a fairly high
profile.

But the fact remains that quite apart from more obvious
worries (will I make a mess of it?  What should I *wear*?) I
did feel, well, apprehensive about appearing as a gay man in
the living rooms of about 700,000 people I've never even
heard of.  It's out of my control. 

You never stop coming out, do you?  There's always another
step.  I guess this is mine.

--John
From: lpostenr@pyrtech.mis.pyramid.com (Linda Postenrieder)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Fun in the Russian River area?
Date: 27 Aug 92 04:06:08 GMT
Reply-To: lpostenr@pyrtech.pyramid.com (Linda Postenrieder)
Organization: Pyramid Technology Corp., Mountain View, CA
Originator: daemon@sword.eng.pyramid.com

I'll be spending the weekend up in the Russian River area with
some friend.  Any resommendations on what to see, where to dine,
where to dance, etc...?

Thanks in advance,
Linda
From: adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Guess my age and win a valuable prize!
Date: 23 Aug 1992 18:38:46 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: mizar.usc.edu

In article <1992Aug24.010207.26812@spdcc.com> 
dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer) writes:
> In article <1992Aug23.235720.2341@morrow.stanford.edu> 
> AS.DLH@forsythe.stanford.edu (David Hatt - 5-0083) writes:
> >Guys I meet in bars are asking me my age.  I don't get it.  We usually
> >exchange names and then it is, "So, how old are you, Dave?" [...]
>
> Does this only happen inside bars? [...]

Not to me it doesn't.

> You probably look like an unusually decrepid 25 year old or a very youthful
> 39 year old.  If you're 25, it's an insult; if you're 39, it's something to
> be grateful for, I suppose.  

I think I've written this once before, but hell, there are new
people here who don't know me, right?  I decided on my 23rd birthday
that I wasn't going to get any older, so I didn't.  I celebrated
my 23rd birthday over and over for a decade.  Whenever people
asked, I told them I was 23.  Of course, I didn't look 23 when
I *was* 23, but I wasn't attempting to deceive.  It just seemed
silly to me.  And people asked *all* the time.  Anyway, a friend
of mine told a friend of his that he was taking me out for dinner
for my birthday (it was my 32nd or 33rd).  "How old is he, anyway?"
the acquaintance asked.  "23".  "He looks *horrible*!  What has he 
done to himself?"  That's when I decided to become 56, which is how 
old I tell nosey people I am these days. 

>                             As for me, 39 doesn't sound very old, and I
> usually find 39 year olds who look their age much more attractive than 25
> year olds.  On average.  I've been known to make exceptions.

Oh yes, a man in his early 40s just does something to me, you know?

Arne
From: pauli@sgi.com (Paul Isaacs)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Publicity
Date: 1 Sep 92 17:43:59 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics

In article <1992Sep1.071111.7760@reed.edu> nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar) writes:
>And the best part? Indications are that the anti-queer and anti-choice
>stances of the Republicans has cost them votes. Aren't they backing
>off of that now and complaigning about congress instead? We're
>winning!

The scary part is the following scenario:

[1] They back off on the anti-GLB stuff.
[2] They attack congress, Clinton, and somehow manage to win the
    election.
[3] They claim that they have a mandate to be anti-GLB, because it
    was in their platform.  (even though it didn't help them win)

pauli
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: rjwill6@PacBell.COM (Rod Williams)
Subject: Re: What's that Butthole Surfers song that goes...
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Francisco
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 15:47:54 GMT

> hsu@sp1.csrd.uiuc.edu (William Tsun-Yuk Hsu) writes:

>          ...I've decided to stop being a Chicago hanger-on
>and queer events reporter, and become a San Francisco hanger-on
>and queer events reporter instead...

Yeaaaaa!  I'll look out for you on the 24-Diviz :-)
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
rod williams -=- pacific bell -=- san francisco -=- rjwill6@pacbell.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: michelle@rlgvax.Reston.ICL.COM (Michelle Elliott)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Gay Homophobia (was Re: Too straight looking to be gay???) (was re:
Date: 27 Aug 92 13:52:52 GMT
Reply-To: michelle@rlgvax.Reston.ICL.COM (Michelle Elliott)
Organization: International Computers Limited, Reston, Virginia, USA

In article <1992Aug25.150555.24747@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> ry@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (ryerson.schwark) writes:
>
>I wish I were a lesbian, then I could be effeminate and brave, rather
>than masculine and cowardly.
>
>Ry Schwark
>ry@usl.com  

Be careful what you wish, Ry; there are lots of good fairies
around here to grant them for you...

Michelle, who has, as yet, neither granted nor received any wishes;
          unless of course you count that cute little redhead last year...
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: coren@osf.org (Robert Coren)
Subject: Re: The Silent Majority (was: other stuff)
Organization: Open Software Foundation
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 00:02:13 GMT

In article <1992Aug27.192138.6751@reed.edu>, nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar) writes:
> (I was going to change the Subject: header, but I rather like the idea
> of a silent majority agreeing on my tastiness)

Silent?

> 
> I'm told that I taste good with mango juice, as well.
          ^
    truthfully.
From: Minotaur@cup.portal.com (Frank - Swilling)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Too straight looking to be gay??? (was re: UNGA
Date: Tue,  1 Sep 92 22:34:20 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: usa
  <1992Aug31.153655.14552@tc.cornell.edu> <65036@cup.portal.com>
  <1992Sep1.131634.27601@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>

Ry Schwark, whom I love like a brother who's maimed and killed dozens
of people and expects *me* to break him out of Death Row, counsels me:

>Frank, get over it.  Leave your high school baggage back in high school.

But, Ry, bubbe, I *loved* High School.  Now *Junior* High was hell on
earth, but High School was generally a lot of fun.  (I was in Drama, and
Chorale, and yes, I was even Popular.)  And anyway, about the name thing,
it's not like there were gangs of kids following me around every day,
finding newly disgusting ways to chant my name.  I don't see my aversion
to name-calling as "baggage", I see it as a lesson learned, and here I am,
passing along that bit of knowledge.  It's really sweet of you to care,
though, just in case it turned out I really was *scarred* *for* *life*.

>Ry Schwark
>ry@usl.com
>(can you guess what fun got made of my name? I *KNEW* you could)

Well, no, I can't, actually.  Schwark doesn't seem to rhyme with any dirty
words, and it isn't itself connotative of anything gross or repulsive.  Ah,
well, the gross, repulsive minds of kids will always find a way.  Too bad
those kids don't always wise up when they get older, eh?  ;-)

Frank
Minotaur@cup.portal.com
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: max@athena.mit.edu (Max Meredith Vasilatos)
Subject: Re: Multi-Index Characterization (Re: your sexuality as an organism)
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 03:35:10 GMT

drp@dosbears.uucp writes:

>I thought tribadism was an archaic term for lesbianism?

That's what the AHD says, but Del Martin and Phyllis Lyon
in _Lesbian/Woman_ (1972) wrote:

    The three most common techniques used in Lesbian
  lovemaking are mutual masturbation, cunnilingus and
  tribadism.  ...  Tribadism... involves one woman
  lying atop the other, followed by up and down rhythmic
  movements to stimulate the clitoris of each.  It is
  a technique which may fulfill "butch-femme" fantasies,
  but which takes time to master.  There may be variations
  of position, but satisfaction comes from stimulation
  of the clitoris by the friction of movement against 
  the body of the partner.

I've always thought of tribadism more generally, as 
impassioned frottage.  

Max
max@athena.mit.edu
From: adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: redefining masculinity
Date: 25 Aug 1992 11:43:52 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: mizar.usc.edu

In article <1992Aug18.194429.16048@microsoft.com> 
bobsarv@microsoft.com (Bob Sarver) writes:

> Do you think it is learned behavior, or is it genetic in nature?

I think it's a gift from heaven above.  Now why don't you get
back to that poker game with your dozen or so masc. gay friends 
who are sitting around your place, doing normal things like 
complaining about how queens dump on them all the time because
they refuse to talk about Madonna and Broadway musicals.

Arne
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Not necessarily Christian
Date: 31 Aug 92 23:25:51 GMT
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison


In article <5014@news.duke.edu> John_Graves@cellbio.duke.edu
writes:

>In article <1992Aug31.175814.14898@macc.wisc.edu>
>anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:

>>In article <5001@news.duke.edu> John_Graves@cellbio.duke.edu
>>writes:
 
>>[credentials galore, amounting, it seems, virtually to a credo]

>The credentials were in response to a post of yours (again
>conveniently deleted)

Oops, apparently I asked for them.  Sorry, I hadn't realized
a short form of the Britannica was on its way.

>>He has yet to convince the congregation concerned of his
>>fitness to be ordained.

>Convincing the congregations of my fitness to be ordained is
>not the way in which we look at ordination or fitness to
>minister.

My source is a UU, but no matter.

>It should be noted that the one area in which my fitness to
>minister has been attacked has been because of my being
>homosexual.  So if I'm a little touchy about the "fitness"
>thing, I would hope you would understand that often a
>homosexual person, much like a woman or a black person has
>to be and show over-competence.

When you're among us, you can relax.

>>>Without a doubt I have much to learn.  

>>Humility might be a good starting place.

>What in hell's name is this supposed to mean?  [...]

It means you should think about it, and so you should.

>You have never shown much in the way of humbleness. 

You've missed a lot, then.

>>>But my "fitness" is not an issue.

>>Pride goeth before a fall.

>I've got experience, people find me competent.

Not all people, John, not all people.  Think on that too.

>BTW even if I weren't working as a paid minister our
>theological understanding is that we are all ministers, each
>to each other.

Who's this "we" in here?  If you mean something truly dumb,
like everybody on the planet, I'll scream!  Show a little
common sense.

<> The ability to simplify means to eliminate the unnecessary
<> so that the necessary may speak. -- Hans Hoffman
-- 
Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin
Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson
NeXTmail w/attachments: anderson@yak.macc.wisc.edu  Bitnet: anderson@wiscmacc
Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: chuckm@dakota.tcs.com (Chuck Meares)
Subject: Re: A Short History ofDiscrimination in the Military
Organization: Teknekron Communications Inc.
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 17:13:00 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.192427.15540@PacBell.COM> rjwill6@PacBell.COM (Rod Williams) writes:
>Technical Sergeant Leonard Matlovich was discharged from
>the Air Force in 1975, after coming out to his commanding
>officer.  His photo later appeared on the cover of "Time"
>magazine...
>-- 
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>rod williams -=- pacific bell -=- san francisco -=- rjwill6@pacbell.com
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Ah, thank you Rod for the memory.  I was 11 years old and in 7th grade when I
saw the article in 'Time'.  I helped out in the school library and while putting
the periodicals out I came across a picture of a truly handsome man on the
cover of one magazine.

Needless to say, I stopped everything I was doing and read the article 
immediately.  It was then that I finally had a name for the way I felt inside!
And better yet, I wasn't the only one that felt that way!

It's strange and sad that a black part of gay history could be such a  
positive thing to happen to my (and I assume others) development.

If anyone has a copy of that article, or knows where I could find one I'd really
appreciate getting my hands on it.

Chuck


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chuck Meares                               |
Systems & Network Administration           | PHONE: (510) 649-3649       
Teknekron Communication Systems            | INTERNET: chuckm@tcs.com
2121 Allston Way                           | 
Berkeley, California, 94704                |
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Opinions expressed here are mine, mine, all mine ... I was never good
at sharing.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mdrayton@sr.hp.com (Mike Drayton)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: move to canada, eh?
Date: 27 Aug 92 23:01:50 GMT
Article-I.D.: scd.Btnzz2.JI4
Distribution: soc
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Santa Clara Division
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1.1 PL5

Ailsa N.T. Murphy (IO81409@MAINE.MAINE.EDU) wrote:
> well, i was thinking about moving to canada anyway.  bush has
> explicitly stated that he doesn't like gay families and the
> whole idea of lesbians raising kids, and i'd certainly move
> to another country before i would allow someone to take my daughter
> away!!!!!
----------
Hoping to offer a note of encouragement (but irrelevant to Canada)...
From what I hear, there seem to be more and more court decisions
granting custody to lesbians and gay men.  Maybe I'm not hearing about
the cases which go against us.  

In preparation for my divorce, I was given a pamphlet about child 
custody, which was published by the Family Mediation Service of 
Sonoma County, California, where my 8-year-old son, his mother, and I
all live.  Their official position is that sexual orientation has no
bearing on decisions about child custody.  I find that very
encouraging, but of course I don't know how many other states share
that policy.

Mike Drayton     
mdrayton@sr.hp.com    Hewlett-Packard Co.    Santa Rosa, California
From: carlton@husc10.harvard.edu (david carlton)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: gay vegetarians anonymous (was, be kind to small furry animals)
Date: 23 Aug 92 20:08:06 GMT
Organization: Citizens for Boysenberry Jam
In-reply-to: twpierce@amhux1.amherst.edu's message of 23 Aug 92 16:17:49 GMT

In article <1992Aug23.161749.8678@amhux2.amherst.edu>, twpierce@amhux1.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) writes:
> In article <1992Aug20.132040.11756@news.ysu.edu> ae642@yfn.ysu.edu (Kelley Miller) writes:

>> Remember earlier this year, when the group who protests against killing of 
>> little animals for fur coats by throwing paint on fur coats started doing
>> the same to leather outfits?

>> Can they say "By-product"?

> I don't know.  Can they?  What's the evidence that leather is really a
> "by-product" of the existing meat industry, rather than an economic
> goal in itself?  Seems to me even if the meat industry wasn't too
> strong, there would be reason for people to produce leather.

I would be rather surprised to hear that there aren't enough animals
used for meat to generate more than enough leather.

Then again, I don't buy the by-product argument - even if, all other
things being equal, the same number of animals would be killed whether
or not anybody used leather, leather usage is still subsidizing the
killing of those animals, so it helps keep the price of meat down,
presumably leading to more meat eating and hence animal killing than
otherwise.

Mind you, I don't have any studies to back me up.

david carlton
carlton@husc.harvard.edu

        Heels up, Boob!
              - Melinda Shore
From: wendyt@cs.washington.edu (Wendy Thrash)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Insults
Date: 26 Aug 1992 20:45:29 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Computer Science & Engineering, U. of Washington, Seattle

In article <michaelh.714816783@Xenon.Stanford.EDU> michaelh@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Mike Hennahane) writes:
>i would have thought that *someone* from stanford would have chimed
>in, but alas, i seem to be the first and only one so far. not only is
>our color cardinal, we are called the cardinal as well (that would be
>the color, not the church office or the bird). sigh. i thought that
>father dyer was a crimson. oh well.

Sure, but try to insult one of them by calling them that.  I figured that
"cardinal," which I meant to refer to Stanford, was just about right.
Nevertheless, upon reflection I realize that I should have called Steve
a Purple Paladin, he being a renowned fur man, after all.
---
-Wendy T., husky husky Husky
From: jfh@netcom.com (Jack Hamilton)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Redefining masculinity
Date: 28 Aug 92 15:44:37 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <1992Aug28.000903.11815@macc.wisc.edu> anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess 
Anderson) writes:
>
>>Well, lookie here.  One post, just one post.  And it's even
>>from ANOTHER person, not me.  
>
>Check out this person's paranoia, eh?  Pretty sick cookie.
>Disowned by the Navy, he wants every gay person on earth to

It's not at all clear to me that being disowned by the Navy is a mark of
shame.  We don't know the details of Bob's story, but we might want to give
him the benefit of the doubt on this one.  

>>For all you folks who asked for evidence that the motss
>>"Frequent Flamers" are a closeminded group of folks, or that
>>they consistently overreact ("Trying to get you killed"?
>>get a grip on reality, anderson),
>
>Everyone who asked for such evidence, please raise your hands.

It's pretty clear to me that some people on the net consistently overreact.
Like Jess, I can't imagine anyone asking for evidence - all you have to do
is read for a while. 

I don't think that the frequent posters are especially closeminded, however
- certainly no more than the general public. 

-- 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Hamilton   jfh@netcom.com   P. O. Box 281107   SF, CA   94128-1107
From: kane@buast7.bu.edu (Hot Young Star)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Irish and Irish-American
Date: 27 Aug 92 22:59:54 GMT
Organization: Astronomy Department, Boston University, Boston, MA, USA

In article <iris_leathair@vadier.gr.osf.org>
emcmanus@gr.osf.org (Eamonn McManus) writes:

>If nothing else, it appears that the Irish-Irish are more tolerant
>than the Irish-Americans
>,
>Eamonn

<Ahem>

Brian Kane (Brian O' Cathain)