From: jliukkon@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Juha-Matti Liukkonen)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: net.rpg: Character Stats
Date: 21 Nov 92 18:02:34 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki

Note: Lots of quotes and comments in this one.

cffitzge@IASTATE.EDU (Charles F Fitzgerald) writes:
>	"An ability is part of a character 
>	which is, to some degree of approximation, 
>	inborn and immutable."

Sounds good.

>I do not expect this definition to be universally acceptable,
>though I would like to to offer some defense for it.
>	A.)  An ability should be different from the other
>	character statistics.  Since I believe skills should
>	change throughout a character's career, I think the
>	abilities should stay constant to contrast them.

Hmm.  As you already mentioned (and mention later on,) "to some degree
of approximation." I think that increase in abilities would simulate the
"ultimate experience" gain.  (They should be more important than skills,
and if they increase, hey, it's a better thing than a skill increase.)

>	B.)  Abilities, in many ways, shape what and who
>	the character is much more than skills do.  Skills
>	tend to represent what the character has learned,
>	his experience, etc.; abilities, however, tend to
>	represent who the character is, at what tasks he
>	is most proficient, etc.  It is thus often, that
>	a small change in an ability will have a profound
>	effect on how the player views his character, and
>	though some character change or growth is expected
>	and, even, desired, the change should be gradual and
>	not be forced by normal ability increase.

True. If you're born clumsy/whatever, it's bound to affect your views of
the world and actions in it.

>3.)  There should also be a clear cut decision on what
>role abilities are to play in net.rpg.  I seem to recall
>something in FAQ about this, but it is fuzzy in my head
>(which does not necessarily mean its fuzzy in the FAQ:-))

I'd say that they form the basic personality traits, and give the skills
some base to build upon.

>I think that Movement and Endurance are awfully 
>close, and probably do not warrant separate stats.  They
>could be combined under the Endurance heading and moved 
>under Strength.  This would leave Health under Constitution
>alone; if this is undesirable, I would suggest putting
>Health under Strength as well.  This would ruin the
>symmetry, but the resulting system would be more workable.

I had the idea that Endurance and Health would provide the most-often
fluctuating things (ie. Fatigue, Hit Points), and Movement would be the
ability to run/move without needing to expend Fatigue. The good point in
this approach is, that no mathematics are needed.

>I disagree with the names in the Esoteric group.  They all
>seem to high-brow for normal use and will confuse many
>players (I can think of only one person with whom I have
>gamed in the past year would have any idea what "Esoteric"
>means).  Possible replacements for "Esoteric" would be
>"Wisdom", "Soul", or "Mind", with the latter two being
>preferable to me.  "Aesthetic", though a very good word,
>would be better as "Creativity".  I am not certain I under-
>stand precisely what is meant by "Channel", and so I will
>offer no replacement.

On the names: As I said before, I'm a Finn, and have some strange
hobbies which tend to diverse my vocabulary even more. Please, you
english-speaking folks, invent better names, but I hope that I get my
points through with these approximations :)

As for Channels, that's something I thought might be usable for magical
aptitude, Piety, strength of beliefs, and whatever. It's a bit vague for
me too, but the thing I meant with it is clearly different from anything
yet mentioned... I might be able to explain it later on more precisely.

>There are some other abilities that could be added to this
>list.  If the system were mutable, a large list of possible
>abilities might be desirable.  I offer the following under:

>Agility -- Balance.  I believe balance is separate from
>	manual dexterity and if one is _really_ into 
>	realism, I think it is impossible to combine the
>	two.  As an example of this difference, I offer
>	myself--I have good balance, though I can not type
>	efficiently.

Good point. I type pretty well, but my balance is next to nil. However,
balance as a stat wouldn't be too widely used in the mechanics as I see
it (it would only influence some not-so-often used skills) and is, as
such, not a necessary inclusion. And it can be approximated with the more
general Agility.

>	-- Coordination.  I am not sure this is sig-
>	nificantly different to warrant a separate
>	ability.  It could be subsumed into Dexterity
>	easily, and I would certainly do so.

>	-- Flexibilty.  This refers to a person's ability
>	to twist his body, do the splits, etc.  I do not
>	think I could find a use for it in an rpg, but
>	I do think it is different than what is presented.

I thought of these two as well, and came to the same conclusion: not
necessary/different enough to justify the additional complexities.

>Soul	--Cool.  This is one's ability to stay calm under
>	pressure.

>	--Willpower.  This is very close to Cool, and
>	probably is not necessary if the other is used.  It
>	differs in being the ability to resist torture or
>	temptation, not necessarily when one is physically
>	threatened.

This is the one subject I thought would subimt me to do maths. I'd say
that Will is the average of Reasoning & Channels (ie. you can
consciously direct your thoughts to the necessary thing at hand, and
also subconsciously emphasize the importance.) At least, IMO, it depends
on these two, and thus would be an Attribute (= calculated, possibly
fluctuating) a la Hits & Fatigue.

>The only deficiency I can see in this formulation is in
>magic.  Considering my above definition of what an ability
>is, I believe that magic should contain some "immutable and
>inborn" component that is yet to be addressed.  I did not
>care for the first post's handling of the subject because
>it did not, in my opinion, balance well for system where
>magic was not important.  I have not given the matter enough

This is where the Channels stat comes to. It's the ability/talent to
direct and focus one's subconscious thought/imaging processes - and
would seem to be a good candidate for magical ability. And most
importantly, it's not inherently magical, so you could use it as the
base for great will power, non-faith-based magic, or faith-based magic,
depending on the approach the character has on the subject.

I thought of this Channels because a separate "Mana" etc. stat would
seem too...unrealistic. As I like RuneQuest, I'd point out the POW stat
in it: it's of not much use unless you're a magic user (well it's used
to resist magic, too, but as a stat.)

>--
>Charles F. Fitzgerald | '....Life's but a walking shadow,
>Iowa State University | a poor player, that struts, and frets
>cffitzge@iastate.edu  | his hour upon the stage,
>                      | and then is heard from no more....'
>                      | _MacBeth_, by W. Shakespeare.
-- 
               Juha Liukkonen, aka jliukkon@cc.helsinki.fi
            University of Helsinki, Dept. of Monkey Business
                                 --O--
           "Trust me, I know what I'm doing." - Sledge Hammer
Newsgroups: rec.games.design