HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: damm@diku.dk (Kristian Damm Jensen)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Question: LOTR Wizards
Date: 15 Dec 92 18:16:22 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen

klaus@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen) writes:

>jdliss@unix.amherst.edu (Jeff Liss) writes:

>>Maybe someone can enlighten me about what the council of wizards'
>>structure is really like.  Obviously the White is #1 and the Grey
>>#2 ... but what about Radagast the Red?  How is all that determined?
>>I don't know if it's every explained.

>I think you are mixing up two things here. Saruman the white was
>head of the order of wizards. No other offices within this order
>is mentioned anywhere. The other members were Gandalf the grey,
>Radagast the brown and the two blue wizards. It is said somewhere
>that these were the cheifs among those wizards who came to the north
>west of Middle-earth, so presumably there were others. The leader
>of the order would have been appointed by the Valar.

There were only those five wizards. In unfinished tales their maiar
names are listed in the telling of the meeting where it is decided to
send them to Middle-Earth.  Their names are: Saruman-Curumo, Blue
Wizard #1-Alatar, Gandalf-Olorin, Radagast-Aiwendil, and Blue Wizard
#2-Pallando.

-- 
Kristian Damm Jensen (damm@diku.dk)
"Life is like a sewer - what you get out of it depends on what you put into it"
- Tom Lehrer
From: paulg@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Paul A Gunderson)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: The Disclaimer
Date: 17 Dec 1992 15:24:04 GMT
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.4

In article <1992Dec12.011157.14583@leland.Stanford.EDU> jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU (James Alexander Chokey) writes:
>In article <1gb7eeINNijl@uwm.edu> paulg@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Paul A Gunderson) writes:
>>
>>It would be very hard to buy anything but the Ballantine edition at this
>>point.
>>
>	No.  The Houghton-Mifflin editions are still widely available in
>the U.S. They're a bit more expensive, to be sure--  but they are sturdier
>and they're out there.
>
>	--  Jim Chokey <jchokey@leland.stanford.edu>

Right you are!  Of course, the Houghton-Mifflin editions are functionally
the same as the Ballantine editions, i.e., both of these are the _revised_
editions.  I was refering to the original George Allen & Unwin editions,
printed in the '50s in England and reprinted, briefly, in the '60s in the
USA by Ace.

----
Paul Gunderson
paulg@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: heinr@sci.kun.nl (Hein Ragas)
Subject: Re: Technology and Morality in LOTR 
Organization: University of Nijmegen, The Netherlands
X-Newsreader: NN version 6.4.19
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 15:16:55 GMT

jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU (James Alexander Chokey) writes:
>	Sauron and his minions have power over a number of horses.  The
>Black Riders, after all, ride upon real horses which are specially bred and
>trained for bearing them. Horses, however, just don't seem to pose the same
>dangers in his hands that the Rings, the palantiri, and other "technological"
>devices do.

>	That's just begging the question.  In LOTR, these Elvish 
>"technological" items _are_ all tainted with some degree of moral
>danger and ambiguity.

> Regardless of whether or not the palantiri are 
>"inherently evil," their moral status in the narrative is highly 
>questionable--  to say the least.  Sauron may have spent a lot of time
>gaining control of these and other "technological" objects, but that doesn't
>change the fact that they are associated with evil, corruption, and 
>temptation.

Note: I detest the terms "Good" and "Evil". It's just two opposing forces,
with neither one being pure, and allways containing something of the
other. Our view of anything is so limited, that we can not call anything
"Good" or "Evil". 
As a Chinese philosofer wrote:
  "If we say something is Good or Evil, just because we see it that way,
   Then nothing is Good and nothing is Evil."
However, I will stick to these terms, because LotR is all about "Good" vs.
"Evil".

_Nothing_ is inherently evil, and _nothing_ is inherently good.
(Challenge me on this one, if you dare. ;) )
_BUT_, most things can be used either way. You can use a sword to defend
innocent people (using it for "Good"-purposes), or you can use it to 
loot and pillage (using it for "Evil"-purposes). The same goes for horses,
palantiri etc. Sauron, the allways-and-ever-"Evil"-one, got a hold of a
palantir, and used it for his own "Evil" ends. Same goes for the horses etc.
An object is never "Good" or "Evil", it's the being that uses it that is
doing "Good" or "Evil" things. A gun doesn't kill, it's the person that pulls
the trigger.

Food for thought?

Hein Ragas



Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: bjornts@ii.uib.no (Bjoern Tore Sund)
Subject: Bilbo/Tonto (was Re: Balrogs, Nazgul, and Sauron)
Organization: Dept. of Informatics, University of Bergen
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 11:11:01 GMT

In article <lilnq0INN23n@cash.cs.utexas.edu>, jadair@cs.utexas.edu (John S. Adair) writes:
|> In article <rwang.724206600@husc8>, rwang@husc8.harvard.edu (Richard Wang)
|> writes:
|> >and were driven off Weathertop by a lone Ranger (albeit the chief) and a
|> 
|> Please forgive me:
|> wasn't it Tonto that scared them off? :)

Pardon me, for breaking in with an diversion (sp?). You do mean Frodo? Is Tonto
the name for Frodo in some translation of LoTR? Which translation?

Wether it really was Aragorn or Frodo or all of the five together that scared
off the Nazgul is a highly debatable matter, but not a topic for a very
constructive debate, IMHO....


-- 
    ___   ___
__  |__)   |    Bjoern Tore Sund (BT)   Quote: "Nothing!"
    |__)   |    bjornts@ii.uib.no              - Marvin

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: mjkugel@iastate.edu (Michael J Kugel)
Subject: Re: Tolkien a Racist?
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 02:15:51 GMT

In article <BzB545.B4u@sci.kun.nl> heinr@sci.kun.nl (Hein Ragas) writes:
>In <Bz4v2s.80K@comp.vuw.ac.nz> Michael.Norrish@comp.vuw.ac.nz (Michael Norrish) writes:
>
>>Leaving that to the side, there is still the issue of Tolkien's
>>ranking of his human races. Clearly the Elves are at the top of the
>>heap. The closer it is to the Valar, the better or more superior the
>>race. However, as James has pointed out, those races closer to the
>>divine are characterised as 'blond, blue-eyed' wonders, while the
>>unfortunate Easterlings and Southrons are dark and swarthy. In all
>>honesty, I think we have in these chacracterisations some evidence of
>>an underlying racism in Tolkien's worldview. 
>
>Don't forget that LotR is a kind of "modern legend" with ancient
>Celtic legends as example. (At least, that's the way it was told to me
>by several people). So, the heroes and "Good"-guys should be Celtic, thus
>having blue eyes and blond hair. And the "Evil"-guys (in ancient times 
>equivalent with "unknown") should be non-Celtic, thus being dark of skin.
>And yes, this theme is clearly racist, but in those ancient times it didn't
>matter much, because the two races lived at a convenient distance of eachother,
>and neither had the means to fight a long-distanced war. I don't think
>Tolkien believed that all "Good"-guys are blond with blue eyes, or would
>want to propagate that idea, but he merely "borrowed" a theme from Celtic 
>legend. 
>
>Food for thought?
>
>From the Adm3a of Hein Ragas, heinr@sci.kun.nl
From: lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Balrogs, Nazgul, and Sauron
Date: 12 Dec 92 20:02:04 GMT
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada

rene@iesd.auc.dk (Rene Boe Soerensen) writes:
>I think you have mistaken the Nazgul's for the Ringwraith's.  The
>Nazgul's were the flying beast's the Ringwraith's rode upon when Frodo
>and his company came nearer to Mordor (at least if my memory serves me
>correct at this late hour.)
>Rene Boe >--
> | Rene Boe Sorensen              |    ////   | E-mail : rene@iesd.auc.dk     |

I believe the Nazgul are the Ringwraiths.  Nazgul is probably some Elvish
word: Nazg (ring) + gul/ul (wraith/spirit?).

					Michael Lewchuk
					lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA
From: paulg@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Paul A Gunderson)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Should LOTR Movie be Made?
Date: 17 Dec 1992 19:54:21 GMT
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.4


Whenever I think of LotR being made into a movie, I think "Dune" and become
very, very afraid.  I have no doubt that there are many people who loved
that movie, but I have yet to find a die-hard fan of the Dune books who does
anything but shudder when the movie is mentioned.


Aside from that, Alec Guiness is the only possible Gandalf.  (Who do you
think Obi-Wan Kenobi *was*, anyways?)

Nicol Williamson would do a great Saruman.  What a voice!  (Listen to the
recording of _The Hobbit_.)

----
Paul Gunderson
paulg@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: erikt@sci.kun.nl (Erik van de Tier)
Subject: >list of books
Organization: University of Nijmegen, The Netherlands
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 09:20:34 GMT

Thank's for this great list! But I still have a little problem.
Could you give me the adress of `HG'. As I wrote I want to buy these book so
I'd like to know where (how) to order them (the ones still for sale that is).
In the Netherlands (where I live) it is very hard to get books like these.

I would be even more thankfull (than I already am) if you could help me some
more.

PS. is there a tolkien fanclub still active somewhere ? If there is I'd like
to know more about it!!

_____________________________________________________________________________
Erik van der Tier (erikt@sci.kun.nl)
From: det@phlan.sw.stratus.com (David Toland)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Balrogs, Nazgul, and Sauron
Date: 15 Dec 1992 13:30:46 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Software Engineering
NNTP-Posting-Host: phlan.sw.stratus.com

In article <RENE.92Dec11002323@fibonacci.iesd.auc.dk> rene@iesd.auc.dk (Rene Boe Soerensen) writes:
>I think you have mistaken the Nazgul's for the Ringwraith's.  The
>Nazgul's were the flying beast's the Ringwraith's rode upon when Frodo
>and his company came nearer to Mordor (at least if my memory serves me
>correct at this late hour.)

Bzzzt.  Sorry, but that is incorrect.  Ringwraith is a literal translation
of Nazgul from the language of Mordor (nazg = ring, ul(?) = wraith).  See
the Council of Elrond when Gandalf recites what he had read upon the
ring in Frodo's hole.

-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
All opinions are MINE MINE MINE, and not necessarily anyone else's.
det@phlan.sw.stratus.com   |  "Laddie, you'll be needin' something to wash
                           |  that doon with."
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: jamie@kauri.vuw.ac.nz (Jamieson Norrish)
Subject: Re: Thomas Covenant
Organization: /u/student/jamie/.organization
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 00:16:47 GMT
	<Bz22E0.D7w@access.digex.com> <Bz2Evs.L5I@acsu.buffalo.edu>
	<7029@sersun1.essex.ac.uk>

In article <7029@sersun1.essex.ac.uk> leitm@solb1.essex.ac.uk (Leith M
F) writes:

   What you appear to be overlooking is that orcs *deserve* death
   generally. Orcs delight in torturing their captured enemies
   (including defenceless women e.g Finduilas was speared to a tree by
   an orc).  They also have no respect for other life, even of their
   own kin (e.g the Shagrat vs Gorbag conflict). Furthermore, Gimli's
   and Legolas's folk had both suffered dearly at the hands of orcs;
   it is hardly surprising they want revenge really, is it ? I think
   orcs are supposed to be creatures so evil that there is no guilt in
   slaying one. 

"I do not feel any pity for Gollum. He deserves death."
"Deserves death! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And
some die that deserve life. Can you give that to them? Then be not too
eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own
safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends."

Frodo remembering Gandalf's words from back in the Shire. Worth
reflecting on?

Also, I could well be mistaken here, but I have a vague feeling that I
read somewhere that it was more the way in which Orcs were raised that
made them so evil, rather than that they were completely so from the
first instance. Anyone care to refute that, or back it up?

Jamie
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: paul@pj.tmc.edu (Thorongil)
Subject: Re: Balrogs vs. Ringwraiths ... and a questi
Organization: Mississippi State University ERC
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 20:40:15 GMT

Wayne Jeremy writes:
>I also never received the impression that the Balrog would have served
>or allied himself with Sauron even if he could.  The Balrogs were always
>the servants of Morgoth, and Sauron is never said to have commanded any.
>Given the inherent self-centeredness of Evil, I don't think any Balrog
>would have humbled themselves to Sauron's servitude willingly.  I doubt
>Sauron would have been willing to ally with a Balrog nor could he have
>been forced to ...

Yet in Appendix B it says ( edited )

c2480  Sauron begins to people Moria with ihs creatures.

Sauron and the Balrog obviously had something going on.  Whether it
was an alliance or simply Sauron using the Balrog's presence to hinder
the West ( Sauron remembered his previous failure to take Moria ) is unclear.

>Oh dear, sexism alert:  why did I refer to the Balrog as "he"?  How is
>"it" referred to in LotR?

The Balrog is referred to as he.  Consult _The Two Towers_ in the chapter
"The White Rider" where Gandalf the White describes the battle between the
two. "Long I fell, and he fell with me ... " 

Thorongil

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: ketil@ii.uib.no (Ketil M. Malde)
Subject: Re: Balrogs vs. Ringwraiths ... and a questi
Reply-To: ketil@ii.uib.no
Organization: student of numerical analysis at the University of Bergen, Norway
	<1992Dec8.112648.3582@genie.slhs.udel.edu> <1g6809INNkm8@smurf.sti.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 15:26:59 GMT


In article <1992Dec8.112648.3582@genie.slhs.udel.edu>, nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Nancy Lebovitz) writes:

	Nancy> Any theories about why the Balrog stayed in Moria once it (he?) was 
	Nancy> awakened?

Has it struck any of you that the balrog might not be terribly
intelligent?  I mean, powerful and dangerous, but it could be that it
isn't just smart enough to rule a large kingdom, and only usable to
Morgoth as a powerful tool to be kept on a short leash.

Pro:

I don't remember that balrogs have ever been in command of anything,
there were of course "Gothmog, captain of balrogs" if I remember
correctly, but I can't remember that he actually commanded a lot.

The balrog stays put in moria, even though it's relatively safe
outside to join sauron or whatever.

The balrog facing gandalf didn't seem at all sure of itself when
Gandalf mumbled something about being a 'servant of the dark fire' or
some such.

....?

Con: 

Sauron wasn't a balrog, was he?  If not, what exactly was he?

....?



--
 = Ketil Malde                     In real life:  ketil@ii.uib.no =
 = Nuke the whales!                    Honk if you love unicorns! =
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: steph@perseus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson)
Subject: Re: Technology and Morality in LOTR
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 22:46:38 GMT

In <55n2qvf@rpi.edu> schere@aix.rpi.edu (Mithrandir) writes:

>In article <steph.724635365@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu> steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson) writes:
[...concerning the ring]
>>
>>I disagree -- while I do think it has part of Sauron's power, I don't believe
>>it is simply a tool for expansion of power.  As a matter of fact, I see very
>>little evidence that the Ring ever tried to get back to Sauron.  It would 

>Whoa here.  It tried (at several crucial times) to get back to Sauron.
>It slipped from Isildur's finger when he swam in the river.  Obviuosly,
>it was sick of him. 

And slipping from Isildur's finger was the best way to get back to Sauron?
Wouldn't it have been better off slipping off where an orc could grab it?
Won't dispute that the ring was trying to get rid of Isildur...

>It also slipped from Gollum's finger in the Misty
>Mountains.  Why would it leave Gollum, who it had obviously enslaved, unless
>it was trying to return?  

Easy -- Gollum was a road to nowhere.  Ruling Gollum was a waste of its
time and power.  *After* Gollum lost the ring, he was capable of both leaving
the Mountains, and susceptible to being drawn to Sauron's lair in Mordor.
Surely the Ring could have used his great powers while Gollum was less free
to go to Sauron when Sauron was practically in the neighborhood.  Instead
it latched on to someone who ended up taking it as far from the Necromancer
as possible.  I *don't* see this of great evidence of the Ring trying to get
back to Sauron.

>And why did it force Frodo to wear it at Weathertop?
>Trying to make it easier for the Nazgul (curse them) to get it.

Are you sure this was entirely the Ring's doing, not the Nazgul?  They
knew how had the Ring, and wanted him very much to use it.  I see Weathertop
as a conflict between the Witch King and Frodo.  Would wearing the ring
in the Barrow have got the ring back to Sauron?

>>have been far happier with a suitable tool it could dominate (like Boromir)
>>than with the domineering Lord of the Rings.  And in the end, it was the Ring's
>>own pride that caused its destruction.
>>
>>IMHO, of course.

-- 
Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Baseball fanatic

  "It is considered good to look wise, especially when not 
   overburdened with information" -- J. Golden Kimball
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: eheimone@niksula.hut.fi (Esko Heimonen)
Subject: Re: Please, Sir, I want some more.
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
	<1992Dec10.165121.10988@stiatl.salestech.com>
Date: 14 Dec 92 11:18:15

Has anybody read After The King, the sequel to Tolkien's works by 
Donaldson etc? 

I saw it once in a bookshop but didn't touch it! Afterwards I was 
naturally filled with curiosity but the book had dissappeared. What 
is it? A bunch of short stories? Does it include stuff dated before 
the Fourth Age?

(As Mr. Shippey once spoke in a conference: "I can see Tolkien's
fingermarks on their throats...")

Esko Heimonen
eheimone@hydroman.hut.fi
X-Subliminal-Message: Just say fhe
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 15:21:56 EST
From: Kevin Quentin Sullivan <KQS@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Machines named by Tolkien's characters
 <1fhttpINN1cn@uranium.sto.pdb.sni.de> <1992Dec4.094256.10360@fwi.uva.nl>
 <1992Dec9.175329.38@arbi.Informatik.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
 <1992Dec14.025254.26546@b11.b11.ingr.com>
 <HAFNER.92Dec14163738@hphalle6.informatik.tu-muenchen.de>

Unfortunately, our "endor" network of IBM RTs is now gone, replaced
by Dec machines names after crayola colors.  But here is a list of
the old network names:

minas-morgul and minas-ithil both pointed to the same machine; same with
minas-anor and minas-tirith.  I think there were other equivalencies, but
can't check since the original host tables are gone.

(I thought these were great names, but a bit hard to remember and type in :-)

amon-amarth.endor.cs.psu.edu
amon-sul.endor.cs.psu.edu
andunie.endor.cs.psu.edu
angmar.endor.cs.psu.edu
ardor.endor.cs.psu.edu
aqaulonde.endor.cs.psu.edu
alqaulonde.endor.cs.psu.edu
barad-dur.endor.cs.psu.edu
belegost.endor.cs.psu.edu
beleriand.endor.cs.psu.edu
bree.endor.cs.psu.edu
carn-dum.endor.cs.psu.edu
cirith-ungol.endor.cs.psu.edu
dagorlad.endor.cs.psu.edu
dol-amroth.endor.cs.psu.edu
dol-guldur.endor.cs.psu.edu
doriath.endor.cs.psu.edu
dorthonian.endor.cs.psu.edu
dunharrow.endor.cs.psu.edu
durthang.endor.cs.psu.edu
eldalonde.endor.cs.psu.edu
elenna.endor.cs.psu.edu
elostirion.endor.cs.psu.edu
eregion.endor.cs.psu.edu
eressa.endor.cs.psu.edu
eriador.endor.cs.psu.edu
esgaroth.endor.cs.psu.edu
formenos.endor.cs.psu.edu
gondolin.endor.cs.psu.edu
gorgoroth.endor.cs.psu.edu
helms-deep.endor.cs.psu.edu
imladris.endor.cs.psu.edu
lindon.endor.cs.psu.edu
lorien.endor.cs.psu.edu
minas-arnor.endor.cs.psu.edu
minas-ithil.endor.cs.psu.edu
minas-morgul.endor.cs.psu.edu
minas-tirith.endor.cs.psu.edu
mirkwood.endor.cs.psu.edu
mithlond.endor.cs.psu.edu
morannon.endor.cs.psu.edu
mordon.endor.cs.psu.edu
moria.endor.cs.psu.edu
nargothrond.endor.cs.psu.edu
nevrast.endor.cs.psu.edu
nogrod.endor.cs.psu.edu
numenor.endor.cs.psu.edu
orodruin.endor.cs.psu.edu
osgiliath.endor.cs.psu.edu
pelorgrir.endor.cs.psu.edu
rivendell.endor.cs.psu.edu
rohan.endor.cs.psu.edu
tirion.endor.cs.psu.edu
umbar.endor.cs.psu.edu
udun.endor.cs.psu.edu
undun.endor.cs.psu.edu
weathertop.endor.cs.psu.edu

     -Kevin

Why for you bury me in the cold, cold ground?  --Tazmanian Devil
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk)
Subject: Re: Technology and Morality in LOTR (was Re: new theory on bombadil)
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 21:14:27 GMT

anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) writes:
>This is openly expressed in "The Hobbit" in the section introducing
>goblins, where the narrator states that they "are probably responsible
>for the machines that are troubling us today" (from memory).

Probably.

>A related point: What Galadriel says when Frodo offers her the ring,
>can be seen as technology assessment.

A fail to see any correlation.  Galadriel refuses the Ring because she
does not want to become like Sauron: an evil and cruel mistress.  There
is no mention of "technology" in any way, only that without the power of
the Three, the Elves will become a "rustic folk of hill and dell and
cave, and dwindle". 

>- anton

					Michael Lewchuk
					lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA
From: leitm@solb1.essex.ac.uk (Leith M F)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Elf-human pairings (Re: Tolkien a Racist?)
Date: 13 Dec 92 13:10:49 GMT
Reply-To: leitm@essex.ac.uk (Leith M F)
Organization: University of Essex, Colchester, UK

In article <1992Dec11.135151.17936@linus.mitre.org> jclander@texas.mitre.org (Julian C. Lander) writes:
>.......
>1) In Tolkein's world, women (adult females of any sentient race) are not 
>heroic in the sense of fighting battles and returning trophies.  Men are.
>The only "battling woman" in any sense at all is Luthien, and it is true that
>         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Eowyn ?  Haleth ? :-) Sorry, just being pedantic.  Battling women in LoTR
are pretty rare, I agree.  It appears, as you say, that the only way to win
the hand of an elf is by showing great valiance, in Tolkien's works.
However, we don't hear much about all the elf-human marriages that occurred
in *Dol Amroth*.  There might have been "male elf - female human" marriages
there.  

Mig.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien