HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: ERETZ YISRAEL (was Re: deportation)
Date: 12 Jan 93 02:44:23 GMT
Organization: Boston University Physics Department

In article <1993Jan9.214006.21261@nysernet.org> astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:
>aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:


>>This is obviously going nowhere.  You stubbornly refuse to recognize
>>that there was a land named Palestine, and people named Palestinians.


>You are correct in that there was a land, although not a country,
>called Palestine.


>There also have been people called Palestinians.  In the early part of
>this century, they were Jews living in what was then called Palestine.

There was also an Arab majority.


>More recently, the Arabs living there have taken to calling themselves
>Palestinians.


Whereas the Europeans who moved there have taken to calling themselves 
Israelis.


Georg
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic,talk.politics.mideast
From: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Subject: Re: Name of Palestinian Deportees (part i)
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 13:02:57 GMT

In article <1ie12pINN2df@shelley.u.washington.edu> kaygee@hardy.u.washington.edu (Kevin Giansante) writes:

# In article 13480, makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
# rails:

# >    What you see is not at all what is happening.  For one
# >thing, that
# >"military power that has occupied their territory" was forced
# >there
# >as a result of a war the Arabs started against Israel and they
# >cannot
# >leave until Israel's security is iron clad.  The more violence
# >committed by the "palestinians?", the less Israel will feel safe
# >enough to withdraw.
 
# Wrong again.  That was no war, that was an act of self-defense
# against an armed aggressor.

	The only way that I am "Wrong again" and that it is not you who is
incorrect is if the problem is the existence of Israel itself and not
anything else at all.  In other words, Jews having their own state is
a horrific idea to you. Jews should remain to be the victims of the
rest of the world and they cannot do anything about it.

	However, even if that anti-semitic interpretation of yours was
correct (and only an ignoramous or a bigot would even consider that
possibility), you would still be incorrect since you obviously have no
idea about the events surrounding the Six Day War.  If you did, even
as bigoted as you are, you would never have made a statement that
exposes your lack of knowledge like that.

# Israel will never feel safe; irrational fear and delusions of
# persecution will effectively prevent that.

	Why do you consider something which is justified and based on the
actual, cruel facts to be "irrational" and "delusions"?  Is it just
more of your ignorant bigotry?

# "Forced," eh?  Cut that victim crap.  Every one of us is
# responsible for our own actions.  You're never "forced" to take
# over someone else's home.

	You probably believe that if person A were trying to kill person
B, and person B killed A in self defense first, that person B is
responsible for what happened.  Well, if you prefer to believe in such
a delusional theory that is fine.  Just don't expect anyone else to.

# I think the world will be a lot safer when we Americans stop
# throwing our money away on israel.

	I agree. The "aid" the US sends Israel is actually a hinderance.
Not only does it allow the Israeli government to not free up its
economy, but out of fear of losing the money Israeli leaders deal with
Arab terrorism in a weak and whimpy way which only encourages more
terrorism.

# Just my opinion :)

	Considering the poor level of education in this country, it is a
miracle it is only YOUR opinion.
--
	There are three types of people in the world.  Those that are good
at math and those that are not.

makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu
Xref: sparky soc.culture.arabic:6409 soc.culture.jewish:24867
Organization: Queen's University at Kingston
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 15:56:13 EST
From: Andy <2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: WHERE DO THE "palestinians" COME FROM?
 <1993Jan8.183031.21313@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>
 <1993Jan9.005000.12393@ncsu.edu>
 <1993Jan9.020712.29014@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>
 <EGGERTJ.93Jan8230323@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu>

In article <EGGERTJ.93Jan8230323@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu>,
eggertj@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41) says:
>
>In article <1993Jan9.020712.29014@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> carasso@Turing.ORG
>(Roger Carasso) writes:
>>   Israeli aid does not represent a transfer of money to Israel, if
>>   Israel gives the U.S. more in return!
>>
>>          "Joseph Churba, a former top Air Force intelligence official
>>          and head of the Washington-based Center for International
>>          Security, estimated that it would cost the United States $100
>>          billion or more in additional spending -- and the deployment
>>          of more than 200,000 of its own troops -- to replace Israel's
>>          pro-U.S. strategic weight in the Middle East."
>>                  --Myths and Facts,
>>                   A concise Record of the Arab-Israeli Conflict,
>>                   1989
>
>Ah yes, the famous Myths and Facts, edited by Leonard J. Davis and
>Moshe Decter.  Funny that they cannot tell the difference between
>myths and facts.  Now who is this famous analyst Joseph Churba?  And
>how did he derive this silly $100 billion figure?  Why, that exceeds
>Israel's GNP!  At that price, we would just buy up Israel and pay them
>a handy profit each year for the "pro-U.S. strategic weight".
>
>Sorry for the sarcasm, but come on.
>
>Let's see.  Ah yes.  Joseph Churba, Ph.D. Columbia 1965.  His thesis
>was on sub-Saharan foreign aid conflicts between Israel and the U.A.R.
>He must have been in ROTC, as he served at Maxwell AFB in Alabama for
>a couple of years.  He seems to be a regular critic of American
>foreign policy in the Middle East.  Must have an axe to grind.  I'll
>have to take a look at his book "The politics of defeat : America's
>decline in the Middle East" for a laugh.  It was written in 1977, just
>a year before the Camp David accords.
>--
>=Jim  eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)

Besides the Cold War is over and in any case, it's been a long time since
the US has been without Arab allies in the Mideast. If the "fact" were ever
accurate it has long since become an anachronism.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
From: faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris)
Subject: Re: Al-Baqarah #143
Reply-To: a.Faris@trl.oz.au 
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne,Australia
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 20:49:33 GMT

In article <1993Jan7.160842.17971@cbfsb.cb.att.com>, mmdh@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (Mazen Mokhtar) writes:
|> 
|>   Muhammad was never the awaited Messiah. The Messiah was Jesus (PBUH). A
|> quick glance at a Qur`an should prove my point.

I recall an article written by Dr. Siddiqui while arguing with a Mr. Watson
about who is the true Messiah. Dr. Siddiqui was saying the Jewish scribes had
modified the writing to make it look like the Messiah would come from the
house of David rather than from the house of Ismail and he is Muhammad.

|> 
|>   Muhammad (PBUH) is the final Messenger of God, sent to all of humanity
|> with the message of guidance and truth. His message confirms and completes
|> the messages sent before him at the hands of Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus
|> and other Messengers, may God's blessing and peace be upon them all. He and
|> all other Messengers of God taught that there is God is one, so worship Him,
|> obey Him and join no object, animal or human in worship.

I do not dispute what you say. However, do you beleive that the Bible has been
modified by the scribes as Dr. Siddiqui claims?.

Also, what if a person does not worship God, does not worship any man or
animal, say an agnostic. How does Islam deal with that?.

|> 
|>   He taught that God, Glorified and Most High, is Merciful and Just. No one
|> inherits the sin of another; no one inherits the punishment of another. It
|> is far below the Glory of the Creator of all creation to have a partner or
|> son. He taught that the essence of Islam is in submission to the Creator and
|> Sustainer or the worlds, a submission of love; and that nothing may be
|> obeyed in the disobediance of God.

I think the concepts above are very good, powerful, and make lots of sense.
I would like to ask you though; According to Judaism, mankind has inhereted
sin through Adam and Eve. Christianity teaches that Jesus came and was
sacraficed for mankinds sins. Islam say that mankind cannot be responsible
for the sin of others. How does Islam deal with the apparent change of mind
on Gods part?. Some how it appears that from Judaism to Islam, God has changed
his mind after sacraficing his own son. This is not a sarcastic question Mazen.

A.Faris
From: ahmad@ra.cs.umb.edu (Ahmad Hashem)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: Al-Baqarah #143
Date: 7 Jan 93 02:39:18 GMT
Organization: University of Massachusetts at Boston

In article <1993Jan6.232329.23798@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> carasso@Turing.ORG (Roger Carasso) writes:
>
>The Torah has not been modified in over 3500 years.  There is external
>proof of this in a greek translation of the Torah that is 3500.  
>
>Further, a study was done by gathering Torahs from all reaches of the
>Jewish world, some living in great isolation such as the persian and
>yemen and ethiopian jews.  Of the Thousands of Torahs examined in the
>study, there were only 7 changes!  And those 7 changes were the
>spelling differences equivalent to the difference between "color" and
>"colour".  

Interesting.  Do you know a book title where I can review this study?

Peace, Ahmad
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
From: abde@troi.cc.rochester.edu (Tamer A. Abdelgawad)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: What is HAMAS
Summary: None.  My post is short enough :-)
Date: 5 Jan 93 01:55:26 GMT
Organization: University of Rochester (Rochester, NY)

In article <nabeel.725997319@oracle.sce.carleton.ca> a@b.ca (G., N. M.) writes:

>   I was astounded by your statements;
>   
>   1. Palestine is a Muslim land
>   2. Most Jews are there illegally
>   3. The places is at war
>   4. The ratio of Jews that can be considered civilians is negligible
>   5. The other party does not treat prisoners decently   
>   6. The Israili soldier was not imprisoned (did not surrender,) so, he/she/it
>      can not be considered a prisoner, not to mention a civilian
>   7. It is enough offense for the soldier to belong to the Israeli army,
>   etc.
>

First, find me a dictionary that says that if you do not surrender, but
are caught anyway, then you're *not* a prisoner (what do they call you?
a 'harmless combatant'?!).  By that logic, all the wounded that fall in enemy
hands are not POW's because they didn't voluntarily surrender.  Get serious.

Second, the logic of your #7 ranks up there with the Israeli government logic
in expelling the 400+ Palestinians.  'Nuff said!

BTW, what happened to all the flowery signatures?  I kinda miss them :-)

Tamer Abdelgawad
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
From: carasso@Turing.ORG (Roger Carasso)
Subject: Re: Philosophy of Nationhood
Organization: The Turing Project, Public Access Internet Host
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 22:16:41 GMT

a.Faris@trl.oz.au  writes:
>
>According to the Torah, God gave the land of Palestine which was occupied
>by the Canaanites to the decendants of Abraham and more specifically that
>of Isaac. Circumcision of males was the sign between God and Abraham as to
>honor that promise. Converts into Judaism are not decendants of Isaac and
>it is beleived that many Eastern European Jews are converts and are Khazars.
>Hence:
>
>1. Do these people have the right to kick the indiginious Palestinians out
>of their place of birth and be part of the Jewish Nation?.
>
>2. Since they are not decendants of Isaac, should they be included in the
>Jewish Nation?.

All interesting questions.  Two thoughts come to mind:

1.  I know it may sound far out from a secular point of view (But we
are dealing here with religion and spirituality after all)... But the
spirit of a Converts to Judaism is believed to have been at Mt. Sinai
for the giving of the Torah, and further a convert is said to have
Abraham as his spiritual father on the conversio papers.
Additionally, all male converts are circumcised.

2.  If the Palestinians give themselves the authority to define who
they are, then certainly jews should be allowed to decide for
themselves who is a jew ans who is not.


roger
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic,talk.politics.mideast
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Name of Palestinian Deportees (part i)
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 93 03:00:59 GMT

In article <1if18oINNnht@shelley.u.washington.edu> kaygee@hardy.u.washington.edu (Kevin Giansante) writes:

>This could very well be the problem.  As we all know, the Israeli
>government was imposed on Palestine by the U.N., 

No, it was authorized in 1/4 of what was Palestine.  The other 3/4 was
handed by the British to the Hashemites who had fled Arabia (later
Saudi Arabia) to establish Trans-Jordan, later called Jordan. 

>Those externally imposed
>"solutions" didn't work, as we have seen and are seeing.  The
>Palestinian Arabs did not agree to be governed by Israel,

Quite right, they didn't agree to be rule by the Hashemites, either.
This is why King Abdullah, the grandfather of King Hussein of Jordan,
was assasinated by a Palestinean in Jerusalem.  I'll bet that you
didn't know that. 

>The problems
>of Palestine will be solved only when the principals involved
>come to an agreement.  Outsiders can't do that for them.  

This is true for all the Arab states.  This is why democracy and
adherence to principles of fundamental human rights in Arab states is
probably a pre-requisite to peace in the region.  No amount of land
transfer is going to make people happy when they are oppressed by
their own governments. 

>I don't care what Jews have or do.  They can have their own state
>if they want.  But I don't think Palestine is a very good place
>to have it.

That's why Israel is established where it is and not in Jordan.

You are very confused about the definition of "Palestine".  I heartily
suggest that read up on the history of the region before embarassing
yourself here again.  You seem to have been the victim of some
unfortunate propaganda.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com              10 years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed President.
From: faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris)
Subject: Re: Al-Baqarah #143
Reply-To: a.Faris@trl.oz.au 
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne,Australia
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 03:37:17 GMT

In article <1993Jan8.153757.29085@cbfsb.cb.att.com>, mmdh@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (Mazen Mokhtar) writes:
|> 
|>   We believe that Jesus (PBUH) was sent with a book as part of his message;
|> can you find the book anywhere? Unfortunately, no such book exists today,
|> as a matter of fact, I have not even encountered fragments or quotes
|> from such a book. The basic message of the book was the basic message of Islam,
|> that people must worship God alone, and obey Him; that they must be good and
|> charitable. I don't know anything about the details.

How do we prove that there was a book other than the ones in existance today?.

|> 
|>   There is no conspiracy. The concept of original sin did not exist before
|> 300-400 AD for it to be corrected. The only Messenger of God who corrected it
|> is the only Messenger who lived after the concept arose, Muhammad (PBUH). None
|> of the other Messengers (PBUT) taught that one person can inherit the sin
|> of another. In any case, the idea is fundamentally unfair, and God is Just.

Original sin existed in Judaism around 800 BC. Read the story of Genesis.
Infact according to genesis, man was created about 4000 BC and that is when
sin came into existance.

The concept of Hell, Heaven, and devil came into existance about 400 A.D.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
From: faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris)
Subject: He's finally arrived
Reply-To: a.Faris@trl.oz.au 
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne,Australia
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 23:29:41 GMT

I would like to announce the birth of our baby boy and thank those who
contributed to the name way back then. My wife gave birth to a 3.75 Kg
(8 Lb, 3 Oz) and 52 cm (20.5 in) boy via C-section on 4th of January 1993.

It was a toss up between naming him Basil or Naram. We have chosen Naram
after Naram-Sin of Akkad who was the grandson of Sargon the Great who
ruled all of Greater Syria, parts of Turkey and Iran in the third milinium
BC. The choice was based on ease of writing, pronounciation, uncommon, and
non-religious.

I trust the name will be fine to my friend M.G. who recommended "Saddam"
which rhymes with Naram and I suppose Tekreet is close enough to Akkad.

Again many thanks to those who helped with the name list.

A.Faris
From: cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
Subject: more ultimatums and no-fly zones
Date: 6 Jan 1993 19:46:18 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu



>The 32nd parallel was made to be the border for the
>no-fly zone over iraq to protect shaat muslims.

Since when shiat muslims are of concern to America.
I thought shiat muslims are their enemies.
Why not putting a no-fly zone over the West Bank
and Gaza Strip to protect christian and muslims there?

>An ultimatum will soon be issued to iraq by US, Britain,
>France, and Saudi Arabia to move its surface to air missiles
>from around the 32nd parallel, or face ??

Look how soon!  Why not issuing an ultimatum to bosnia
this fast to stop agression there?  Why not issuing an
ultimatum to israel to protect people in the occupied
territories?

What do these people think of us?
if you say stupid.  You're wrong.  it is worse and
much worse.

"iraq is too big of a country for arabs, it must be divided into 3"
"Fariq Tasod" Policy is still being implemented.
-- 
                  ___________________ cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu _____________
                 (______   _  |   _  |_
_____ H A M Z A ________) |-| |_ |-| | |
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic,talk.politics.mideast
From: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Subject: Re: WHERE DO THE "palestinians" COME FROM?
Reply-To: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Organization: North Carolina State University
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 16:15:54 GMT


In article <1993Jan7.194335.20578@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>,
carasso@Turing.ORG (Roger Carasso) writes:
> eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu writes:
> >
> >The Arabs do not outnumber the Israelis by an order of magnitude
> >militarily in any respect that is important, else they couldn't have
> >lost any of the wars. 
> 
> ARAB MILITARY ACQUISITIONS (RAW MILITARY HARDWARE) FROM 1973-1988:
> 
> 	$154 BILLION
> 
> 	(syria 22B, iraq 48b+, jordan 5.4b, kuwait 4b, libya 25b,
> 	saudi arabic 34b, morocco 2.4b, oman 1.3b, uae 3.5b, egypt 10.8b)
> 
> IF YOU THINK ISRAEL CAN KEEP UP WITH THAT YOU ARE CRAZY.
> 
> ISRAEL SURVIVES FOR TWO REASONS:
> 
> 	1. IT'S TROOPS ARE BETTER TRAINED AND SMARTER.
> 	2. DEFENSIVE WARS ARE EASIER TO FIGHT.*
> 
> 
> 
> carasso.
> 
> *yes all its wars were pre-emptive defensive strikes except 1973.

Hmm, let's see......

10 countries....

15 years...

154 $billion...

That's about $1 billion per country per year. Please compare with Israel
which receives over $2 billion annually in military aid from the U.S.
Please also note that most of the countries which you mention have far
more people than Israel and far more land area.

Brad "Ali" Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)


p.s. It is still a big waste of money. I would rather that my country
did its part and stopped fueling these military machines.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
From: frank2@odie.ee.wits.ac.za
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic,misc.jobs.misc,rec.travel
Subject: Work in Kuwait - info' wanted
Date: 11 Jan 93 07:26:14 GMT
Organization: Wits Electrical Engineering (Novell Users).

I have heard stories of short term contract jobs being offered in Kuwait. 
The work is apparently menial and very tough. The good part is the reported 
huge sums of money that are being paid.

Anyone know anything about this?

Please e-mail me.

David
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
David Frank                       {} "Time is unforgiving. That's why
<frank2@underdog.ee.wits.ac.za>   {} in Greenwich they call it mean."
University of the Witwatersrand   {} - Unknown	
Johannesburg                      {} 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
ps:	If you send me a picture postcard to the following address, I'll 
	send one right back to you.

			David Frank
			91 Mowbray Road
			Johannesburg
			2193
			South Africa
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
From: rayes@Goat.mcs.kent.edu (Sandra Rayes)
Subject: Re: Blessings bestowed upon Ibrahim alayhi ssalaam (Was Re:  The Question of Culture)
Organization: Kent State University
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 02:34:54 GMT

In article <1993Jan4.005455.28872@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> afadel@nyx.cs.du.edu (Ayman Fadel) writes:
>salaam
>
>what i understand from As-salaa Al-ibrahiimiyya (allahumma Salli ala 
>sayyidina muhammad ...) is that we ask Allah to bless Muhammad Salla
>Allahu alayhi wa sallam) and his household (descendants also??) like
>He blessed Sayyidana Ibraahiim Alayhi SSalaam by making him a great
>nabiy and making his two sons great nabiy and even his grandchild
>Ya'quub alayhi ssalaam.   In addition, there were many messengers and
>pious people among his descendants.  So that is what we ask for
>Muhammad salla allahu alyhi wa sallam and his 'aal.
>
>I don't know about the origin of the As-Salaa Al-ibrahiimiyya, but
>there is a hadith in RiyaaD Us-SaaliHiin by An-Nawawi in which
>a companion asks An-Nabiy Salla Allahu alayhi wa sallam how he
>should ask Allah to bless him, and he told him to say this
>du'aa.
>
>I'd be interested to learn more in anybody could share somthing
>about this.
>
From what I read in the Fiqh As-Sunnah by Sayyed Sabiq, there are 
various different interpretations of the Salah an-Nabiy. ONE of 
those interpretations says this du'a is for the family and offspring
of the Prophet while another version says it refers to ALL people
who follow the Sunnah of the Prophet (i.e., Muslims who adhere to
the Sunnah, regardless of nationality or culture).

I prefer to accept the latter explanation, since this to me is in
keeping with the brotherhood of all Muslims and the emphasis that
no human is better than another except those with the most taqwa.
It bothers me to think that my salah would be sullied by making
du'a for King Hussein and others who claim descendancy from the
Prophet.

Wa Salam.

Sandra.

>wallahu a~lam
>
>BTW, i do not think that this du'aa
>has any nationalistic connotations.
>
>salaam
>ayman
>
>
>