From: eebonar@sn01.sncc.lsu.edu (Dave Bonar)
Subject: Re: game vs reality simulation
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Reply-To: eebonar@sn01.sncc.lsu.edu
Organization: News and Views from LSU
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 13:57:48 GMT

In article <03OCT92.01938700.0065@VM1.MCGILL.CA>, CX6L <CX6L@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA> writes...
>In article <1992Oct2.184457.8420@cs.tulane.edu> eebonar@sn01.sncc.lsu.edu (Dave Bonar) writes:
>> Now, in a GURPS firefight the rules might well make it benifitial
>>to always aim for the vital spots.  If so I think they should be changed
>>or the specific game you are running should have lower average skills
>>(probably the latter, most GURPS games I've seen tend to have extremely
>>high combat skills, especially guns).
> 
>Hm. I think whether or not skills are too high (or low) is based
>on the players, GM and campaign: not reality. In reality, I'd
>never want to be in a firefight! Given the choice of trading
>rounds with a pimp who bought a 9mmP to scare the competition,
>and with an SAS guy who's got *anything*, I'd pick the former.
>He's just going to point-n-plug. The SAS guy *can* and *will*
>go for heart and head shots *even under fire*! That's true in
>general for "real-life" highly trained types (ie-those who go
>in to take out hijackers). I actually knew someone who was a
>friend of some Sayarot Maktal (sp?) guys: yup, that's what
>they *really* do!

	True, in some situations elite combat units are told to shoot
	for vital targets.  But sniper firing and attacking someone holding
	hostages is a lot different then just a firefight.  

>     If you want to simulate what goes on in movies or novels
>in your campaign, then high skill levels are a must. Try to
>emulate a Bond movie, or even the deeds shown in most war
>movies, *without* high skill. Likewise, if you want to try
>and simulate real-life special forces or antiterror units,
>you need absurd skill levels. If, on the other hand, you are
>doing GURPS Gang Violence, or GURPS Normal Folks Meet Cthulhu,
>then you want low skills. The same goes for low-tech combat
>skills: try doing Conan, or Elrich, or Cuchulainn, or Arthur,
>or Robin Hood....without skills at 20+! Uh-uh.

	This is a big part of the problem here.  You never claimed that
	you wanted to simulate constant, outragously great characters.  I
	(and many other gamers) prefer to play somewhat more believable
	characters.  For that matter, even when I'm creating a Green
	Beret, elite type I still feel that skills of 16-18 are appropriate.
	That level simulates my views (backup up by lots of reading, and
	some talk with various Army guys) of how good these guys are.  

>     The point: GURPS combat is realistic, and IMHO perhaps even
>fairly believable. The situations people apply it to *are not*!
>If you want to take Joe with his default knife skill and pit
>him against some HT 9 heroin addict in an alley who lacks the
>training to defend himself, you'll get real-life. Now take
>six or eight thugs with heavy body armour, firearms, grenades,
>sap gloves, combat boots and k-bars, all of whom have about a
>20 in a gun skill, 15 in a martial-art  (and all maneuvers at
>18), and who are all ST 13, DX 15, HT 12 killing machines. Let
>them think out every move in combat, and work like a perfect
>team. Sick them on inferior foes. You then have a typical
>high-tech special ops, espionage or supers-type situation in
>GURPS: or a real-life special forces action against some
>undertrained and mentally fatigued hijacker.

	Might I suggest a possible change.  It works well for me.

	As I said before, I don't feel that even special ops types need
	to have stats and skills as given above.  However, I've never had
	any problem simulating elite guys cutting through the enemy.  Basically
	I make the unimportent NPCs to be 1 shot wonders. They go down at
	the first reasonable hit on them.  Hit location is rarely ever 
	invoked when firing on them; its all if you hit.  

	Of course some NPCs are 'realistically tough'; these guys are partially
	fleshed out but they aren't as good as the PCs.  Finally, a few
	major opponents are basically made with the same care as PCs.

	I find this to be a lot more cinematic then constantly worrying
	about game kludges such as attempting to hit a certain location.

Dave
__________
Dave Bonar
eebonar@lsuvax.sncc.lsu.edu
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