From: rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu (Eric Rescorla)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Date: 8 Sep 92 01:10:36 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Rescorla for himself.

In article <pink1ec@zola.esd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.esd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
>In article <1992Sep7.154140.22115@cs.yale.edu>, rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu (Eric Rescorla) writes:
>|> In article <1992Sep6.022528.22499@hilbert.cyprs.rain.com> max@hilbert.cyprs.rain.com (Max Webb) writes:
>|> 
>|> >Bigotry doesn't treat others as people, with all their complexity, but
>|> >as cartoon bad guys. The inference about the immorality of bigotry follows
>|> >straight away.
>|>
>|> No, you have a hidden assumption, which is that people wish to be
>|> treated more or less as you do. If I wish that people not treat me
>|> equally well, but "help" me (I.e. try to make me straight) if I am
>|> gay, then I would naturally treat others in the same way.
>
>Surely even Mr Rescorla can see the fallacy in his own argument.
No, because there isn't one.

>I can just about imagine someone, unable to come to terms 
>with their own sexual identity, wishing for 'help'.    However, 
>I cannot imagine someone who wishes for 'help' wanting that
>'help' to come from just anyone who cares to interfere, no 
>matter how unqualified or malicious that person might be.
>
>So it's not just 'help' period, that such a person is asking 
>for, and their desire to be helped is not an open invitation 
>for any passing idiot or bigot to interfere in their life
>uninvited.
Hmm...Now that I reread what I wrote, I can see that I could
have been clearer. I don't think that excuses the completely
false assumption you make at the end here, but I'll
try to explain what I had in mind.

I know it's a stretch, but suppose for a moment that you're
1) Straight.[I have no clue if you are, but it's a beginning
assumption for the position I'm trying to point out]
2) A believer in a belief system which holds that homosexuality is
wrong. Perhaps even one in which being gay means that you
are permanently condemned to hell.

As we know, people who fit into categories one and two are
quite common.

Now, supposing one is such a person. Clearly, to be gay is
a bad thing. It is not at all a stretch to think "If I were
gay, I would want people to make me straight." because
after all, being gay means that one is condemned to hell.

Now, for such a person, it naturally follows that "do unto
others as you would have them do unto you" would include
trying to "help" those who were gay. Because that's what
you'd want to be done to you.

And what you, Mr. Livesey, can imagine, is of absolutely
zero relevance to the moral problems faced by the sort of
individual I am describing. What IS relevant is what
THEY can imagine, and if you think that people can't
imagine what I am describing, you know far too few
fundamentalists. 


>Mr Rescorla should keep his 'help' for people who ask for
>it specifically.  He certainly should not assume that his
>own lack of discrimination is shared by everyone else.
What are you, a total shithead?
Why do you think I put "help" in quotes, eh?
What in HELL makes you think that I've ever imposed
my "help" upon anyone, eh?
Perhaps you should think before you flame.

I'm not endorsing this as a philosophy. I'm simply pointing out
the logical flaw in Mr. Webb's argument. Get it? Got it?
Good!
-Ekr




-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Rescorla, DoD#431 (Nighthawk S)              rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu
Former chemist now CM400 mechanic                 ekr@eitech.com(preferred)
                       I will hack Unix for food.
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality