From: davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami)
Subject: Re: Israel's peace talks with Syria
Organization: Technion, Israel Inst. of Technology
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 18:22:03 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.215207.18191@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> wmuhanna@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Waleed A Muhanna) writes:
>In article <1992Sep11.174905.11245@cs.brown.edu> hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:
>>In article <1992Sep11.165605.9014@usl.edu>, pssres12@ucs.usl.edu (Vignes Gerard M) writes:
>>...
>>Your paraphrasing ability is most commendable. However, your perspective of
>>history is not.
>
>No.  Your grasp on reality, Harry, is tenuous here.
>
>>Israel has *NEVER* been the aggressor in the Israeli-Arab
>>disputes.
>
>Nonsense.  Without arguing about 1948 and 1967, I'll just mention 1957
>and 1982 (Israeli invasion of Lebanon).  In 1973 Egypt and Syria
>attacked toliberate their territories.  There was no aggression in 1973,
>no attempt to acquire new territories.

I think that Nasser and Assad are not aware of your theory - their 
stated goal was to annihilate "The Zionist entity" - this is the stated
goal even today of Syria (changing fast but ...)

>
>>When Israel has launched attacks against Arab targets it has
>>*ALWAYS* done so either in retaliation for past Arab terrorist activity, or
>>(as in the case of the Six Day vistory) to insure a strategic advantage in an
>>inevitable conflict.
>
>Hogwash.  Expansionism and colonization ranked high among its motivations,
>and sadly it still does today.  Zionists, since Hertzl, make no secret
>about this. Ben-Gurion's conception was that "a Jewish state...will serve
>as an important and decisive stage in the realization of Zionism," but only
>a *stage*: the borders of the state "will not be fixed for eternity,"
>but will expand either by agreement with the Arabs "or by some other
>way," once "we have force at our disposal" in a Jewish State.  His
>long-term vision included Jordan and beyond, sometimes even
>"the Land of Israel" from the Nile to the Euphrates.
>
>As early as 1938, Ben-Gurion had told a Zionist meeting: "I favor partition of
>the country because when we become strong power after the establishment
>of the state, we will abolish partition and spread throughout all of
>Palestine."
>
>Likud's platform includes the *East* bank of the Jordan river as part of
>Israel.  Don't tell me that this is for defensive reasons too.

Well, The Jewish people is claiming the whole of Palestine from the
early days of Zionism We claim it not only for the current inhabitants
but for the whole 13 millions Jews of the world. This is the foundation
of Zionism. We are readt to setlle for Peace in the current borders of
Western Palestine. That is Israel of the 1949 lines + (maximalist) WB
& Gaza. Today this is the final frontier - more than half of the
Israelis are ready to return to 2.6.67 borders and that will follow
soon from the Madrid process. Israel have no more power and enthusiams
to demand anything - Israel is exhausted.

>
>>In fact, Israel has traditionally gone to great pains in order to prevent as
>>many civilian casualties as possible.
>
>Tell that to the children of the intifada who are dying daily at the
>hand of your heroic foces.   Tell that to the thousands of civilians
>who have been dying in the villages and refugee camps in Lebanon as
>a result of Israeli bombing.

Well, I'll have to tell them that even if one is taking great pains,
sometimes One must make this when the other side's insolence and hatred
passes all borders.

I think that most of those children were slaughtered by their delightful
"shock commities" buddies - so it has nothing to do with the IDF.

>
>>This is a historically proven and
>>accurate fact.
>
>This is your pure, self-righteous, fantasy; history and facts speak
>otherwise.  Your assertions are simply myths.
>
>>Since the earliest days of the Jewish liberation struggles
>>against Britain, all Jewish revolutionaries tried to avoid civilian casualties
>>if *AT ALL* possible.
>
>Tell that to the inhabitants of Deir Yassin and other villagers, old men
>women and children, massacred in cold blood.  Read up on the tactics of
>Irgun and the Stern Gang of thieves and thugs used to terrorize and
>kill civilians.  Recall that it was Yitzhak Shamir who, in an attempt to
>justify the tactics of thugs like him, claimed in 1943 that "Neither Jewish
>ethics nor Jewish tradition can disqualify terrorism as a means of combat."

I smell a gross lie here! can you cite your source?
There were many more incidents when "thugs" called off an operation
(attack on British officer) just becuase his wife was in the car, and
risked brutal punishment (or even death) when captures. another story
tells about a group of "thugs" who planed derailing a British ,military
train and in the last minute they noticed that the wrong train is going
to be hurt and in personal danger removed the bomb. This is true of all
3 organizations. 

I think that Israelis would have been in deep trouble if they had such
a rivals in the Arab side - Heroic yet human fighters would have made
a lot more imapct than the cowards of Munchen/Maalot/Sabena/BG Airport
etc.

Pushing busses over the cliff, putting bombs in bread loaves is both
less hurting and antagonizes the whole world toward the PLO.
>
>>This is still the policy of the IDF. Even in the Lebanon
>>operation of 1982, Israel risked Jewish infantry lives in attacking terrorist
>>positions (as opposed to air bombing the entire area) so as to avoid any
>>innocent casualties.
>
>Tell that to the 20,000 civilians who died and the other thousands who
>were maimed as a result of Israeli use of cluster and incendiary bombs
>on civilian areas during its invasion of Lebanon.  Even hospitals were
>bombed.

Again, if Israel was adopting Arab standards - 50-100K were minimum of
the Arab bloodshed - 20K is much but considering the opponents and the
mess in Lebanon , I think the Lebanese can thank themselves for
absorbing the wrath of Israel and not oif Syria. Remember the 10K Syrians
of El-Hama. 

>>In fact, your claim that Israel has ever attacked Arab civilian targets is
>>outrageous.
>
>No.  The fact that you have the balls to deny it is what is profoundly
>outrageous.  This sort of utter denial comes close to those twits who
>deny that the Holocaust has happened.  Take off your blinders and face
>up to reality.

I'm sure that many such mistakes (and sometimes deliberate action of
Israeli officers) has occured and there's no point in denying it. I
think that on the whole - Israel kept an amazingly clean record of 
ciovilian pop. abuse relative to the mass of hostility it had to
contend with. I think that the Allies in WWII and Iraq towards lesser
equalities swept along much more harshly - since there are no political
gains to make - this is usually forgotten.

Walleed may quote many incidents but he must remember that Israel suffered
more or less 40 years of Hostility in the utmost levels with no ally in
the region and contends with hostile population that keeps dreaming of
its total destruction - once you have this in mind you can understand 
that violence against citizens is inevitable and Isreal must strive to
minimize it - but approacing zero will mean Death to Israel.
>
>Enough said.
>
>Waleed Muhanna
>-=-
>"The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed
>by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing
>about them." -- George Orwell, "Notes on Nationalism," 1945

David.
-- 
=============================================================================
  David Ben-Ami (irc: bigdav)      |   "I can resist anything but Temptation"
  s2780369@Techst02.Technion.Ac.Il |       Oscar Wilde
  davidba@Carmel.Technion.Ac.Il  davidba@Moav.Techniona.Ac.Il
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast