HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bjt20@ccc.amdahl.com (Bob J Taylor)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: "The North Face" Bigfrog: opinions sought.
Date: 16 Apr 92 13:37:58 GMT
Reply-To: bjt20@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Bob J Taylor)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <1992Apr15.214804.10984@zoo.toronto.edu> steve@zoo.toronto.edu (Stephen Smith) writes:
>Well, after much soul searching, and the perusing of countless catalogues,
>my SO and I are considering buying a TNF Bigfrog tent.
>
>Though they'll be glad to special order a Bigfrog for us, none of the 
>local outfitters has one of these on display, nor do their staff seem to 
>know enough to answer the few questions we have - hense this appeal
>to the net. Without more rambling, here are the questions:
>
>1) The Bigfrog, and its smaller relative the Bullfrog formerly
>   used pole and sleeve construction. They're now "No Hitch Pitch".  Is
>   the NHP system all it's cracked up to be (i.e. quick and easy to use)? 
>   Is "pole and sleeve" preferrable?
>
According to my 1991 catalog the frog's are not NHP.  They may have
changed this.  I can recommend the NHP system.  Extremely easy to set up.
I have the TadPole and like it very much.

>2) In spite of how close we've peered at the photos of the "Bigfrog"
>   in the two catalogues that we've found it ('92 REI and '91 TNF), the
>   Bigfrog appears to possess *just* a no-see-um mesh door - there's
>   no sign of a weather door (perhaps it's craftily tucked inside?). Has.
>   anyone seen this tent close enough to say whether it's got a weather
>   door or not?
>
No weather door.  Many of TNF tents have rainfly's which come with
vestibules.  To be more specific the weather door is include in the
rainfly.

>Finally, if anyone has any comments on this tent or TNF tents in general
>we'd be most happy to hear from you. Thanks in advance.
>---
>-- 
>+==========================================================================+
>+     Stephen Smith  ||  Department of Zoology. University of Toronto      +
>+             email  ||  steve@zoo.utoronto.ca                             +
>+==========================================================================+



BJET
From: wmartin@STL-06SIMA.ARMY.MIL (Will Martin)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Outdoor gear - Mud
Date: 6 Apr 92 19:00:39 GMT
Article-I.D.: ucbvax.9204061903.AA16654

There are specialized types of outdoor clothing and footwear for practically
any climate, terrain, or weather condition that allow the properly-equipped
individual to travel safer, faster, and easier than someone wearing
"all-purpose" outdoor gear -- I'm thinking of things like snowshoes or
skis, rock-climbing boots, snow-pacs, river-wading slippers, wetsuits, 
hightech-fabric raingear, etc. There is one outdoor condition, though,
for which I am unaware of any available specialized footwear or
clothing: deep mud. I'm talking suck-your-boots-off seas of mud,
WWI-trench-warfare mud, Russian-spring-on-the-Eastern-Front mud --
mud which sucks down vehicles and horses, mud which seems to reach
down to the depths of the earth with no discernable bottom to it...

Is there *anything* out there currently manufactured that will enable an
individual on foot to progress through such an environment? The nearest
thing that comes to mind are the L.L.Bean-type rubber-bottom/leather-upper
boots, and those are really for only simple ordinary muddiness, not
wade-in-it mud.

Can anyone suggest possible types of garments or shoes that would make it
possible to perform in a mud environment?  About all that comes to mind to
me are some sort of slick-exterior wetsuit-type outfit for the body, which
somehow attaches to a type of boot in a fashion that the boot cannot be
sucked off the foot.  The boots themselves might have a very slick outer
surface, so that mud will not cling to them, or will drop off easily if it
does adhere.  The boot soles might be something like the Panama tread
pattern used by the Army jungle boots, but I can't decide if the sole
material should be slick, too, to discourage mud from sticking, and the
tread provide the sole source of traction, or if the sole should be a more
conventional non-skid or non-slip material... The problem becomes that
the best system for working in mud becomes not so good or actually
dangerous when you get out of the mud and are on more normal terrain...

Regards, Will
wmartin@st-louis-emh2.army.mil OR wmartin@stl-06sima.army.mil
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: ssnyder@sunai.er.usgs.gov (Steve Snyder)
Subject: Re: Rails-to-Trails
Organization: U.S. Geological Survey, Reston VA
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 12:44:06 GMT

In article <17834@oasys.dt.navy.mil> ford@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Harry Ford) writes:
>A number of recent postings under either Abandoned Places or Rails to
>trails have mentioned this group. For those interested in further information
>contact:
>
>		   Rails-to Trails Conservancy
>		   Suite 300
>		   1400 Sixteenth Street N.W.
>		   Washington, D.C. 20036
>
> Phone 301-797-5400

Actually, the area code should be (202), since it's in DC.

-Steve-
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Helicopter Access (was: Alaskan Heliskiing)
Date: 17 Apr 92 19:45:34 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department

In article <9503@wrgate.wr.tek.com> peterk@fury.WR.TEK.COM writes:
>
> 

>I am sure not many will argue
>using helicopters as an alternative to several hundred mile overland 
>approaches in Alaska and Canada.

Well, count me as one such arguer.  If an area is so remote that it is
virutally inacessible to me in my lifetime, so much the better.  It is
a valuable asset, just to know that such an area exists.  Conversly,
it is a deeply felt sorrow to learn that access, to what appears on the
map to be a rare vast wilderness, is as simple as handing your credit
card to a charter flight operator.

-- 

-Wayne Trzyna
 trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: WHITLOCK@vaxb.gbus.virginia.edu (Reid E. Whitlock)
Subject: Land Navigation/Map & Compass/Routefinding
Organization: Darden Center, University of Virginia
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 01:53:44 GMT

I am responsible for instructing the outdoor recreation staff at the 
University of Virginia in survival, mountain medicine, extreme bivouac etc...
etc... skills. 

I'm running a two day navigation training and would like some advice on 
ideas others have used to make such training interesting. Day one (about 2 
hours) is in a "classroom setting" indoors. The concepts of legend, symbols, 
scale, types of maps, contour lines, etc.. will be discussed. The second 
day (9 hours) will be in the field. Pace count, terrain association, 
reference points, ridge walking, etc.. will be covered.

In this context, what do you think would work well for a group of people who 
are "outdoorsy" and have some backpacking experience under their belts, but 
have tended to use guide books or nothing at all rather than real maps and 
compasses?

Thanks for your ideas.


Reid Whitlock

e-mail: whitlockr@vaxb.gbus.virginia.edu
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: lisap@olomana.soest.hawaii.edu (Lisa Petersen)
Subject: Portable Toilet Questions
Originator: lisap@olomana
Organization: School of Ocean and Earth Science and Technology
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 23:41:41 GMT

I wonder if anyone in this group has experience with portable
toilets used, for example, at base camps?  I see in the Campmor
catalog that there are two models at reasonable prices.  How much
trouble are they for the poor person who has to empty them and
clean them out?  Yuck!  And how long would a 3-gallon container
last if there are 70 people? 

The reason I am asking is not for backcountry, actually, but
for daily use at bike races.  Often we don't have buildings
nearby, and there are never real porta-potties/sani-toi's at
the races 'cuz they cost ca $200 per day to rent.  Most of the
time we just have to hope that the pineapple bushes are 3 feet
high.  I thought maybe a portable toilet with a privacy shield
ef some sort might be good for our purposes.  I hope to get some
information from this group (help!) to present to the group of race
organizers who would, ultimately, be responsible for the set-up
of the potty and disposal of the yucky stuff.  (Why do I have
this feeling already that they're not going to go for it?)

I'd appreciate any information/suggestions you could give me.
Thanks a lot!

Lisa Petersen
lisap@olomana.soest.hawaii.edu
From: jjh00@outs.ccc.amdahl.com (Joel J. Hanes)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Abandoned places
Summary: Tumbledown cabins, moose hunting camp
Keywords: canoe Ontario Cree
Date: 7 Apr 92 19:22:16 GMT
Reply-To: jjh00@OUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Joel J. Hanes)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

Two places, both north of Sioux Lookout, Ontario,
between Lake St. Joseph and Lac Seul


   A cabin site at the south end of a short, steep portage.
   Two tiny cabins, each about 10' x 10', roofs stove in,
   some of the wall logs askew, all heavily mossed over.
   Carved names and dates going back to the 30s.
   When I was last there, in mid-May 1984, a hunting party
   had apparently camped in the clearing for a while --
   rotting offal and garbage strewn all over, too foul
   for us to consider cleaning up.  We gagged, and
   moved on down to the lakeshore to eat our trail lunch.


   A traditional seasonal hunting camp, at the crest of a
   gentle hill in the middle of a long portage.  The hill
   covered with open birch woods and spring wildflowers;
   a rude tent frame of pine saplings, and a long-moldering
   stack of longer poles, perhaps for an older style of
   native tent.  The broken-off bow section of a birchbark
   canoe was propped up against a tree, and the old fireplace
   had a good crop of grass.  All gray with age, all abandoned.


Allow me to mourn, a little, for what was once one of my favorite
stretches of backcountry.  When I was a youth (60s), Sioux Lookout
was the end of the road, and the bar in the Sioux
Hotel was a truly rough place, where we bought Export As and
tried to look tough while downing the last cold Labatt's
before putting in the next morning.

The backcountry stretched unbroken for hundreds of miles
to Hudson's Bay, with only Native Americans
and fairly serious paddlers to break the solitude.  North of
the Lewis-Marchington lakes portage, the country was truly
wild, and seldom visited except by Cree coming down from their
villages at Cat Lake and Slate Falls.

By 1984, a logging road ran northeast from Sioux Lookout
up to Patricia, right between Lewis and Marchinton,
and thence northwards, and all the country
south of Lake St. Jo was being quickly clearcut for
pulpwood, leaving only a few hundred feet of forest standing
along the edges of the lakes.  We heard chainsaws on
Armit and on Winchell.  The beaver dam that made the
Lewis-Marchinton portage a muddy hell had been dynamited.

We came back early.  I won't go back.


Anybody paddled the Albany in recent years?  Last I heard
it was still pretty wild.

---
Joel Hanes

  recommended:  "The Last Good Country", short story, Hemingway
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: rlm@sunlight.Physics.UIowa.Edu (Robert Mutel)
Subject: Pacific Coast Trail in N Cascades
Keywords: PCT
Organization: Department of Physics and Astronomy, University of Iowa
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 13:36:33 GMT

I am planning a 5-6 day solo trek in early August from roughly the Canadian border to the Glacier
Peak area in the northern Cascades, probably mostly along the Pacific Coast Trail.
I'd like to talk to anyone who has been on that section, and solicit advice on
maps, books, or other relevant information.

-- 
Robert Mutel
Department of Physics and Astronomy
University of Iowa
Iowa City IA 52242

Telephone: 319-335-1950      FAX: 319-335-1753
Email: rlm@sunlight.physics.uiowa.edu  (internet) 
       iowa::rlm (span)
From: kristian@siri.unit.no (Kristian Martinsen)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Land Navigation/Map & Compass/Routefinding
Date: 7 Apr 92 14:40:47 GMT
Organization: University of Trondheim

In article <WHITLOCK.22@vaxb.gbus.virginia.edu> WHITLOCK@vaxb.gbus.virginia.edu (Reid E. Whitlock) writes:
>I am responsible for instructing the outdoor recreation staff at the 
>University of Virginia in survival, mountain medicine, extreme bivouac etc...
>etc... skills. 
>
>I'm running a two day navigation training and would like some advice on 
>ideas others have used to make such training interesting. Day one (about 2 
> .. stuff deleted ...


Here in Norway there is a popular sport called 'orienteering running'. I
don't know if you got any similar. Each runner got a map where the
locations of some (mostly 5 - 15) flags or markers  are plottet on the
map. The aim is then to find
all the flags placed out in the terrain and get back to the
start in shortest possible time.

Its very fun because you have to be able to:


- Use map and compass
- Choose the best route in the terrain
- Steer into right position if you are slightly lost

and of course:

- run fast

Kristian Martinsen
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: eugene@amelia.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: [l/m 5/20/91] Wise words from Rachel Carson (10/28) XYZ
Followup-To: poster
Organization: NAS Program, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 92 11:20:52 GMT
Reply-To: eugene@amelia.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)

Rachel Carson was perhaps the most influential environmentalist
to have lived in the modern era.  She wrote simply and clearly, and when
her ideas came under attack, she was ultimately vindicated.  If you want
to learn about the backcountry environment, you will find no
finer set of books.  They rank with Darwin's Origin of Species
by Means of Natural Selection.  She died in 1963 of breast cancer.

"We still think in terms of conquest.  We still haven't become mature enough
to think of ourselves as only a tiny part of a vast and incredible universe.
Man's attitude toward nature is today critically important simply because
we have now acquired a fateful power to alter and destroy nature.  But
man is a part of nature and his war against nature is inevitablly a war
against himself.  The rains have become an instrument to bring down
from the atmosphere the deadly products of atomic explosions.  Water,
which is probably our most important natural resource, is now used and
reused with incredible recklessness.  Now, I truly believe that we in this
generation must come to terms with nature, and I think we're challenged
as mankind has never been challenged before to prove our maturity
And our mastery, not of nature, but of ourselves."
		--Rachel Carson
			"The Silent Spring of Rachel Carson"
			Copyright \(co 1963 CBS Reports,
			Columbia Broadcasting System, Inc.

*After publication of Silent Spring, certain spokesmen for the
pesticide industry claimed that Rachel Carson was not a trained biologist.
For them should be reserved a special corner in the Library of Hell,
equipped with a barnacle-covered bench and a whale-oil lamp, by which
whose light they would be compelled to read out loud her masters thesis:
"The Development of the Pronephros During the Embryonic and Early
Larval of the Catfish (Inctalurus Punctatus)."
		--Paul Brooks
		"The House of Life: Rachel Carson at Work," 1972,1989
		Her editor

TABLE OF CONTENTS of this chain:

1/ DISCLAIMER
2/ Ethics
3/ Learning I
4/ learning II (lists, "Ten Essentials," Chouinard comments)
5/ Summary of past topics
6/ Non-wisdom: fire-arms topic circular discussion
7/ Learning (3)
8/ Fletcher's Law of Inverse Appreciation and advice
9/ Water Filter wisdom
10/ Words from Rachel Carson			<* THIS PANEL *>
11/ Scouting		<pending>
12/ Netiquette
13/ Questions on conditions and travel
14/ Dedication to Aldo Leopold
15/ Leopold's lot.
16/
17/ Information about bears
18/ Poison ivy, frequently ask, under question
19/ Lyme disease, frequently ask, under question
20/ "Telling questions" backcountry Turing test (under construction)
21/ AMS
22/ Words from Foreman and Hayduke
23/ A bit of song (like camp songs)
24/ What is natural?
25/ A romantic notion of high-tech employment
26/ Other news groups of related interest, networking
27/ Films/cinema references
28/ References (written)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: ead@netcom.com (Eric De Mund)
Subject: seeking boundary waters canoe area info
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 92 07:07:29 GMT
Organization: netcom

rec.backcountry people,

i'm thinking about a canoe trip this spring. can someone send me info
on the boundary waters canoe area? their address and phone number
would be a good start. an ftp site with trip reports, etc., would be
even better.

thank you,
eric de mund
ead@netcom.com
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: davewi@ecs.comm.mot.com (DX531 Dave Wiatrowski)
Subject: Tent Recommendations
Organization: secure_comm
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 18:13:53 GMT

I am currently considering the idea of purchasing a new tent.
My primary use will be "family" camping (no backpacking).  
We do most of our camping in the spring, summer, and fall.  Currently 
only myself and my wife, but we want to plan for the future.  Anyway, 
I am soliciting opinions on the following topics:

Canvas -vs- Nylon:
My concern here is that the nylon tents won't hold up as 
well as the canvas tents.  How easily do the floors and walls
in nylon tents tear and puncture?


Cabin style -vs- Dome style:
I have several concerns here.  
The first concern is that I would like to be able to stand up in 
my tent (I am about 6'4").  Most dome style tents don't allow this?

The second concern is that the square bottom cabin style tents 
seem to allow more efficient use of space when cramming gear and 
people in the tent.

The third concern is after inspecting the design of several cabin 
style tents, it looks like rain is likely to flow into the windows,
unless the windows are zipped shut.  When the windows are zipped 
shut, there will be no ventilation. 


Also, any recommended brands for any of the above varieties of tents?
I am zooming in on the following:
Eureka! Willow Creek (6 person, 4 sided unbrella, nylon )
Eureka! Equinox      (6 person, 6 sided dome    , nylon )
Wildwood             (6 person, 4 sided cabin   , canvas) 

Please send your comments/suggestions to
 
davewi@ecs.comm.mot.com

Thanks for your help,

Dave Wiatrowski  
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: tamada@cheshire.oxy.edu (Michael K. Tamada)
Subject: Re: Land Navigation/Map & Compass/Routefinding
Organization: Occidental College, Los Angeles, CA  90041
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 21:12:35 GMT

In article <WHITLOCK.22@vaxb.gbus.virginia.edu> WHITLOCK@vaxb.gbus.virginia.edu (Reid E. Whitlock) writes:

>I'm running a two day navigation training and would like some advice on 
>ideas others have used to make such training interesting. Day one (about 2 
   [...] 

>In this context, what do you think would work well for a group of people who 
>are "outdoorsy" and have some backpacking experience under their belts, but 
>have tended to use guide books or nothing at all rather than real maps and 
>compasses?

     I'm not sure how familiar you are with orienteering, you may have
thought of this already, but my answer is:  hold an orienteering meet!

--Mike Tamada
  Occidental College
  tamada@oxy.edu
From: theep@squid.ecn.purdue.edu (Pratheep Balasingam)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Can I have my foot back ?
Date: 13 Apr 92 03:48:01 GMT
Article-I.D.: noose.1992Apr13.034801.20514
Distribution: usa
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network


I would like some suggestions for dealing with painful calluses (sp?). 
I developed a couple of these less than a year ago on a hiking 
trip in the sierras. Now I have moved, and am no longer able
to enjoy the sierras :-( I still have the calluses to deal with, however.

Some questions : 

Am I stuck with these for good ? 
  - if no, how do I get rid of them ?
  - if yes, is there any way to ease the pain ? 

I find that it hurts most when I am wearing semi-formal shoes.
In running and tennis shoes I almost don't feel them. So, perhaps,
there are some semi-formal pairs of shoes out there which will do
better than the ones I have now. Any suggestions, along these lines.


Please send me suggestions, and I shall summarize for the
net in a couple of weeks. Thanks very much.

Hobbling in Indiana,

Pratheep
theep@squid.ecn.purdue.edu
From: jjh00@outs.ccc.amdahl.com (Joel J. Hanes)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Outdoor gear - Mud
Summary: Hip boots or waders
Keywords: experience
Date: 7 Apr 92 18:23:50 GMT
Reply-To: jjh00@OUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Joel J. Hanes)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

wmartin@STL-06SIMA.ARMY.MIL (Will Martin) writes:
>
>Is there *anything* out there currently manufactured that will enable an
>individual on foot to progress through   [ deep heavy mud  ]

Duck hunters in Midwestern marshes use hip boots (with "garters"
that attach to the belt and hold the tops up) for mud up to the
knees -- for deeper mud, which is common, full chest waders are
the preferred solution.

Walking in these conditions is a *chore*.

It's often nice to have a balance pole if the mud is
knee-high or deeper.

---
Joel Hanes
From: tom@astro.as.arizona.edu (Thomas J. Trebisky)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: yosemite tips wanted
Date: 7 Apr 92 00:10:39 GMT
Organization: University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ

I posted this as a followup earlier, but our newsreader totally botched
things, so here it is again......posted by hand.

foxjo@ei.ecn.purdue.edu (John S Fox) writes:
>tpodelny@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com (Ted Podelnyk) writes:
>>Having passed through the park two years ago,
>>I was utterly disgusted by the crowds.
>>I personally will never to there again, and recommend to everyone I
>>know not to go their either.
>
>It seems many rec.backcountry people are under the assumption that the 
>only way to enjoy the outdoors is if you're by yourself.  Although that 
>may be many people's personal preference, don't assume everyone is like 
>that.

Nice concept, I have to admit I usually enjoy the backcountry best in the
solitary way, in fact I enjoy a weekend backpack alone to a solitary place.
But I also enjoy people, I wouldn't want to be a hermit at all, a time and
place for everything.

A couple comments on Yosemite, as far as the valley, you just have to
understand what it is in this decade.  It is not what it was 40 years ago.
But in my mind, the Valley is such a beautiful and unique place that I
don't have any real problem ignoring the crowds.  I even enjoy climbing
there ... I remember lining up to do the Harry Daley route on the apron
(I think that is close to the name of the route), a new concept for me, and
that was over 10 years ago.  Frankly though, Tuolumne is my favorite.

I was in Tuolumne about 2 years ago and had the place to myself, but I went
in late September, so most of the crowds were gone, the air had a nip to it,
didn't see another soul climbing, but had a good time.  Climbed Cathedral
Peak and camped in the vicinity and didn't see another soul except near the
road on the hike out.  The climb ended with clouds and wind and more or less
surrounded in fog, we did the descent in moonlight a bit chilled, but I still
have vivid, and frankly pleasant memories of the experience.

My old motto to avoid the crowds was the desert in the summer and the
mountains in the winter, it still works pretty well.  Another good trick
is to just get off the beaten path, do a little cross-country travel,
use the topo map to pick a nice place that isn't on a major trail, ....

Tom
--
	Tom Trebisky	ttrebisky@as.arizona.edu