HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: Deconstructing Angelou
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 22:24:46 GMT

In article <1jmvhtINNoft@morrow.stanford.edu> francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir) writes:
>Benjamin John McCall quotes the Inaugural Poem:
>
>	... the mastadon, the dinosaur 
>	who left dry tokens of their sojourn 
>	here on our planet floor ...
>
>William Sapphire, of the New York Times, remarked that this conjured 
>up for him an image that he was not certain Angelou had intended.

I'm afraid I too thought of fossilized reptile turds. Which is to
say, I was reminded of Michael Zeleny's prose.


--Mike



-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution
mnemonic@eff.org| The only one that's coming."
(617) 864-0665  |                           
EFF, Cambridge  |                   --Robert Frost
From: rsquires@cyclops.eece.unm.edu (Roger Squires)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Read 'em and weep: Depressing novels (was books be don't censor)
Date: 27 Jan 93 22:20:50 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
NNTP-Posting-Host: cyclops.eece.unm.edu

> mossman@dipso.Berkeley.EDU (Amy Mossman) writes:
>
>Second nomiation: Notes from Underground by Dostoevsky. Not so
>much depressing as physcotic.
>

	I don't remember this story striking me as psychotic,
	but a slightly less extreme example would be _White Nights_.

>Amy Mossman

rms
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: nickles@sage.cc.purdue.edu (John A. Nickles)
Subject: Re: Fan Fiction--Copyright Infringement? (LONG)
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 02:44:35 GMT

I love Fiona. She knows the guy who wrote "The Trouble with Tribbles", she
corresponds with David Lynch. (Sigh) If only I were older and Texan. 

Anyway, to get back to  the subject at hand: The great problem with fan
fiction (or all shared-world stories, for that matter) seems to me to 
indicate a lack of creativity on the part of the writer. There is a difference
between being inspired by a novel or (even) a TV show and knocking off your
own cheap copy of it. (Alexandra Ripley's SCARLETT falls firmly in the
second category, IMHO) To use a rather gruesome metaphor, the original
author breathes life into a character while the subsequent writers merely
animate a corpse. Robert Goldsborough's Nero Wolfe, Thomas Chastain's Perry
Mason, etc. etc. ad nauseum.
    That being said, I do agree with Fiona's point about taking the work
in new directions that the original creator never envisioned. Deep Space 9
for example is every bit as good as Star Trek, (and Star Trek 6 is also
every bit as good as Star Trek.) (Here, of course, is where I confess that
I have written a sequel to Twin Peaks which focuses on the power of myth
in the character of The Fan. I have also outlined a Dr. Who-Star Trek novel
to be called, naturally, CROSSOVER.) But I don't consider these anything
more than entertainments to amuse myself. I definitely wouldn't want 
to base a career on them. (But if Fiona could use her Magical Powers to
get David Lynch to read my script...) 

     What it boils down to then is whether one wishes to be an Author 
with the ability to create characters from nothing and make them real
or a TV writer with the ability to take already established characters
and use them to tell a good story and possibly to make the characters 
grow. I have nothing against the latter way of life, but well let's put
it this way, how many TV writers can you name? How many Authors?

Any comments, flames, desires to read CROSSOVER, are welcome.

John A. Nickles
Standard Disclaimer 
"Pride and Extreme Predjudice" --The Book of Sequels
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mtaranto@panix.com (Mark Taranto)
Subject: Re: Yet another bookstore incident
Organization: The Inner Clique
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 04:23:56 GMT


kasprj@nuge108.its.rpi.edu (Jim Kasprzak) writes:


> Last night, as Maureen and I were returning to Penn Station after having 
> dinner with Cardinal Taranto, we decided to stop at the Barnes and Noble
> at 33rd and 7th to pick up some reading material for our rides home.

It's bad enough that Don Zirilli started this -- but now young Kasprzak
has picked it up, too.

I keep meeting Jim at restaurants with literary connections.  The first
was The Whitehorse Tavern -- where Dylan Thomas had his last drink, before
his head exploded.  This time it was a TriBeCa landmark -- Riverrun -- named
for the first word in Joyces FINNEGANS WAKE.  What next, the Algonquin?

> Incidentally, the book I wound up getting was William Boyd's _An Ice-Cream
> War_, set mostly in British and German East Africa during the First World 
> War. A nice ironic portrait of the bizarre ways people behaved during the 
> Age of Imperialism (as opposed to the bizarre ways people behave today?). 

The movie version was called COMFORT AND JOY, and took place in Scotland.
I've mentioned his STARS AND BARS several times.  I've also read his
first book -- A GOOD MAN IN AFRICA.  Boyd was born in Ghana, and grew up
there, and in Nigeria -- before his family moved back to the UK, which is
why several of his books take place in Africa.

I imagine that the bookstore also had BRACAVILLE BEACH -- but did they have 
Boyd's other books?

Mark

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: INDIAN (ENGLISH) LITERATURE
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 22:27:18 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.182404.5881@ecrc.de> sanjiva@ecrc.de (Sanjiva Prasad) writes:

>	>(5.) RAJA RAO, Male, (1937-....) 
>
>This old master,  based at UT Austin, is definitely older than 56!
>Probably a good 20-30 years older than that.

I met Rao while at Texas, and I confirm that he certainly seemed much
older than 56 when I met him (ten years or so ago).



--Mike




-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution
mnemonic@eff.org| The only one that's coming."
(617) 864-0665  |                           
EFF, Cambridge  |                   --Robert Frost 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: dsy@psych.toronto.edu (Desiree Sy)
Subject: Re: The English Patient
Organization: Department of Psychology, University of Toronto
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 19:55:15 GMT

In article <1993Jan25.142753.9826@bnr.ca> jennifer@bcarh24f.bnr.ca (Jennifer Robinson) writes:
>Please send me any recommendations for or against "The English Patient"
>by Michael Ondaatje, the first Canadian novel to win the Booker prize
>(1992). I'm a longtime fan of mainstream CanLit, but haven't read
>anything by Ondaatje. I'm trying to decide whether to buy the hardcover
>now or wait for the paperback. I haven't yet seen the book in a store,
>but have read newspaper and BOMC reviews and summaries.

I haven't read this yet, because (1) it's not out in paperback;
(2) there is a huge backlog of people waiting to put the book on
hold at the library -- I may end up getting the p-back first.

However, I *am* an Ondaatje fan.  Every time someone starts yet
another Robertson Davies thread I feel I should plug Ondaatje,
who is (a very different but) equally fine writer.  My favourite
of his novels (tho' perhaps it isn't his best) is RUNNING IN THE
FAMILY.  Highly recommended.

-desiree


Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:26572 alt.president.clinton:1890
From: ez012344@chip.ucdavis.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,alt.president.clinton
Subject: Re: Forcing the Spring
Date: 28 Jan 93 05:22:04 GMT
Followup-To: rec.arts.books
Organization: Computing Services, UC Davis

In article <1993Jan25.224112.13694@leland.Stanford.EDU> stefan@leland.Stanford.EDU (Stefan Michalowski) writes:
>I'm a Friend of Bill, but the phrase struck me as one of the ugliest
>that ever emerged from the mouth of a politician.  Forcing the Spring?
>Is that What Americans Do? The only thing that comes close in my
>experience is trying to replace the shocks on my old Volvo.
>
>The Spring should be cherished and petted and savored, not forced.

Well, gee, Stefan, I wasn't impressed with it either, but does it really 
compare with:
"I'm not a crook." -Nixon
"I don't recall."  -Reagan
"Those 2 bozos."   -Bush

Dan
deherrin@ucdavis.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: Censorship
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 19:26:40 GMT

In article <1993Jan26.141717.97776@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu> arc2@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (AMY CHARLES) writes:
>
>Obscenity, by US Supreme Ct rule, is whatever local community standards deem
>obscene.  There is some leeway for "artistic merit" but that's as indefinable
>as obscenity.  Justice Potter Stewart declined to give an ironclad description
>of obscenity but said, "I know it when I see it."  There are especially stiff
>penalties for "pandering", or advertising your obscene stuff thru the mail to
>people who didn't want it.  By the way, using the mails constitutes
>publication, so careful with that next love letter.

Amy has it wrong here. Obscenity under the Constitution is defined 
more specifically than she suggests here (where she conflates the 1973 Miller
v. California test with Potter Stewart's pre-Miller comment, to take one
example).

To be banned as "obscenity," material must meet all three parts
of the Miller test:

a) Whether the average person, applying contemporary community standards,
would find that the work, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient
interest.

b) Whether the work depicts or describes, in a patently offensive way,
sexual conduct specifically defined by the applicable state law.

c) Whether the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic,
political, or scientific value.


Amy implies in her posting that (a) alone is the applicable test. It's
not. 

"Pandering" does not have stiffer penalties than distribution of
obscenity.  As for the business of worrying about your love letters--don't
worry about them.

There are plenty of things to be critical about in current obscenity law,
of course. It's just that the law is not what Amy says it is.


--Mike




-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution
mnemonic@eff.org| The only one that's coming."
(617) 864-0665  |                           
EFF, Cambridge  |                   --Robert Frost 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,sci.math
From: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Subject: Re: Remedial Math
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 17:57:17 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.180647.19635@husc3.harvard.edu> zeleny@husc10.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny) writes:
>For the sake of continued dialogue between weenies and nerds, let us
>keep this thread cross-posted.

>In article <1993Jan21.145456.9200@math.ucla.edu> 
>dstein@oak.math.ucla.edu (David Stein) writes:

>>Mikhail Zeleny writes:

>MZ:
>>>To recapitulate: the best introduction to general mathematical culture,
>>>as required by such disciplines as philosophy, linguistics, computer
>>>programming, and so on, is to be found in the beginning courses on real
>>>analysis, topology, and abstract algebra.  Another prerequisite for the
>>>above is a course in formal logic and set theory.  In addition, work in
>>>linguistics will call for familiarity with lattice theory and other
>>>aspects of universal algebra.  I believe that all of the above should be
>>>required of anyone graduating with a B.A. in these areas.

>DS:
>>  I second that opinion.  Though I do not think it is so important that 
>>the B.A.'s go through these courses with the same rigour and exhaustiveness 
>>as the math students have to; the important thing is to expose all to the 
>>ideas and concepts underlying abstract mathematical thought.

>I disagree.  In my experience, no beginning graduate or undergraduate
>class in mathematics can be said to aim for rigor and exhaustiveness,
>and it is a good thing, too. 

This is correct.  But in ALL mathematics courses, at ALL levels, there
should be total rigor.  This means that definitions (or preferably
characterizations) should not have to be corrected later, that theorems
are correctly stated, even if not proved, and that concepts do not have
to be discarded to get a more accurate version.  This can be done.

>DS:
>>  A friend of mine was teaching some pre-Calculus class, the one where the
>>university tries to undo the damage done in high school.  He started the 
>>first day by showing there exist irrational numbers, and by explaining why 
>>are the reals not countable.  About half of his class switched sections on 
>>him.  Towards the middle of the semester he was fired, allegedly for not
>>following the syllabus.  The next day he was rehired--the students stood
>>by him and asked for his return.  For many of them, I suspect, this was
>>the first time in years they actually cared about math.

It may have been the first time they actually saw mathematics, as distinct 
from computation.  It was probably a selective school; most of the remedial
classes are composed of those who do not care to learn math (or anything 
else); they just want to get the requirements out of the way and get a degree.
These are the ones who disgrace our degrees.

-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@snap.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!snap.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: "The Crying Game" (SPOILER WARNING) (Was Re: Heather's Ford)
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 17:58:38 GMT


In article <C16L76.Krx@news.iastate.edu> s1mbm@isuvax.iastate.edu writes:


>By the way, folks, do yourselves a favor and go see *The Crying Game* if
>it's playing near you.  An *amazing*, undly *human*, film.


Spoiler Alert. If you haven't seen "The Crying Game," you may want to skip
the rest of this posting.

*****



One more warning


*****



"The Crying Game" stands as evidence of Paglia's thesis about the power of
the androgyne. When you read SEXUAL PERSONAE, Michael, you'll find this
out.




--Mike


-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution
mnemonic@eff.org| The only one that's coming."
(617) 864-0665  |                           
EFF, Cambridge  |                   --Robert Frost 
Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:26553 alt.president.clinton:1880
From: velde2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Francois Velde)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,alt.president.clinton
Subject: Re: Inauguration ceremony
Date: 27 Jan 93 19:18:11 GMT
Organization: Homewood Academic Computing, Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, Md, USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu

In article <1993Jan22.165621.29469@ecrc.de> sanjiva@ecrc.de (Sanjiva Prasad) writes:
>
>I forget now, does the US have something like a "poet laureate"?  If yes,
>who is it now?  Or does every Prez get to nominate one?

The poet laureate is appointed every two years by the President, I think.
The last was Joseph Brodsky, a Russian expatriate. I can't remember the 
current one. _The Economist_ had an article on this a week or two ago.

-- 

	Francois Velde
From: barclay@RAIL9000.gatech.edu (Barclay Blanchard)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Books we're too righteous to censor-- but would like to
Date: 23 Jan 93 00:43:47 GMT
Organization: Georgia Tech Research Institute

Portnoy's Complaint.  I hated it.  I was uninterested in whatever plot there
is.  The only reason I could figure out that it's well known is that there's
a lot of shock value (masturbation, etc.).  Boring.

-- 
Barclay Elizabeth Blanchard    barclay@rail9000.gatech.edu
"I've been laughed at by some of the funniest people."
--Lissie, Alice Walker's _The Temple of My Familiar_
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu
Subject: People Who Don't Like Arkansas
Organization: Clark University
Date: 23 JAN 93 01:12:42 GMT

Fiona says she is 

>                                --a rare sort of Texan who, having 
>                                 lived and worked in Arkansas, is 
>                                 an enthusiast for Angelou's home 
>                                 state, 

and I am reminded of this horse-trading scene from Charles Portis'
_True Grit_.  I quote it in honor of our new Prez:

     I said, "I am sure Lawyer Daggett would not wish me to
     consider anything under three hundred and twenty-five dollars. 
     What you get for that is everything except the saddle and you
     get out of a costly lawsuit as well.  It will go harder if
     Lawyer Daggett makes the terms as he will include a generous
     fee for himself."

     "Lawyer Daggett!  Lawyer Daggett!  Who is this famous pleader
     of whose name I was happily ignorant ten minutes ago?"

     I said, "Have you ever heard of the Great Arkansas River,
     Vicksburg & Gulf Steamship Company?"

     "I have done business with the G.A.V. & G.," said he.

     "Lawyer Daggett is the man who forced them into receivership,"
     said I.  "They tried to 'mess' with him.  It was a feather in
     his cap.  He is on familiar terms with important men in Little
     Rock.  The talk is he will be governor one day."

     "Then he is a man of little ambition," said Stonehill,
     "incommensurate with his capacity for making mischief.  I
     would rather be a country road overseer in Tennessee than
     governor of this benighted state.  There is more honor in it."

     "If you don't like it here you should pack your traps and go
     back where you came from."

     "Would that I could get out from under!" said he.  "I would be
     aboard the Friday morning packet with a song of thanksgiving
     on my lips."

     "People who don't like Arkansas can go to the devil!" said I.



Heather
HHENDERSON@vax.clarku.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,sci.philosophy.meta
From: Charlie.Creegan@launchpad.unc.edu (Charlie Creegan)
Subject: Re: Relative clauses (was: Re: About Truth...)
Summary: parsing a sample sentence
Organization: UNC EBBS (NOT)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 21:32:36 GMT

>In article <1993Jan21.065037.46579@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> miner@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes:
>>In article <1993Jan21.121758.24967@eff.org>, mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin) writes:
>>> I hear nonrestrictive clauses all the time. I'm startled to see someone
>>> claim they don't exist in spoken English. 
>>
>>It's a blanket statement I've heard made numerous times by linguists,
>>especially those who work on English.  To me it's always seemed right.
>>I can't imagine saying to my wife:
>>
>>	Guess what?  Molly, who was planning to drop my course, got an
>>	A.
>>
>>Certainly not with the pause intonation (for the comma) that I would
>>give it if I were reading it.  However: if you hear them, you hear
>>them.  Maybe the experts are wrong; it wouldn't be the first time.

[my comments seem to have got lost last time; let's try again]

a native speaker dreams up a context for the sentence: over dinner, I say
to my wife, "Guess what?" (wife looks attentive) "Molly" (wife looks
puzzled) ", who was planning to drop my course," (wife gets it) " got an
A." 
   Punctuate the above as you will, but I wouldn't hesitate to write it
your way and say it my way.  I'd be glad to hear why I shouldn't.

Charles Creegan   NC Wesleyan College

--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
From: twain@milton.u.washington.edu (Barbara Hlavin)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Pigs is Pigs
Date: 21 Jan 1993 21:40:19 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
NNTP-Posting-Host: milton.u.washington.edu

>>I think it was written by Stephen Leacock. 
>
>Definitely not.  My copy of PIGS IS PIGS is in storage, but that situation
>is hopefully not lasting for too much longer.  I only remember that the
>author was someone I had never heard of.

OK: how about Ellis Parker Butler? 


--Barbara



Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:25955 sci.math:18613
From: br105@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jeffrey A. Del Col)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Deliberate McGonagalls?
Date: 28 Jan 1993 13:08:31 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: br105@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jeffrey A. Del Col)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


What makes McGonagall funny is that he was sublimely unaware of how awful
his poetry was.  Either that or he simply didn't care what people thought
of it.  Anyway, to set out to ape McGonagall seems to miss the point; truly
McGonagallesque verse can't be deliberate.  I think the contest was over on
inauguration day when the first mastodon trundled over the horizon.


J. Del Col
-- 
Jeff Del Col      *   DECONSTRUCTION--- the critical method invented      
A-B College       *                      by Procrustes  
Philippi, WV      *                             
                  *         
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: carltv@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Carl Caldwell)
Subject: Easton Press????
Summary: Easton Press???
Keywords: Easton Press???
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 19:35:07 GMT

I am intrigued by some subscription materials from the Easton Press.
Can anyone give me any information about the quality of these books?
They are quite expensive, and I would like some info before making
a decision about receiving these editions.  They include the 100
Greatest Books Ever Written and a Limited Edition series.  Any help
would be greatly appreciated.  Are they worth the price?

Thanks for your help.

Carl
carltv@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
From: crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu (Lauren L. Crawford)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Political Correctness in the Dark Ages
Date: 25 Jan 93 15:37:36 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <anand.727722271@cds705> anand@Cadence.COM (Anand Bemra) writes:
>crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu (Lauren L. Crawford) writes:

>(and to India, where
>>there are similar attitudes toward fleshliness), read Naguib Mahfouz's
>>Cairo Trilogy.  Lots of passages about the erotic character of various
>>women's "voluminous folds of flesh" and "immense rumps."

>This is certainly news to me. While I admit, the standard of beauty
>in India is not quite close to the reed like appearance of the models 
>in the West, it is nowhere near "voluminous folds of flesh".


Apparently Egypt's used to be.  Mahfouz is Egyptian.  That's why it's
called the Cairo Trilogy.  Sorry to state the obvious, but ...

Somewhere along the line, my original post got somewhat run together.  My
geography is bad, but it ain't quite that bad.






-- 
I can identify with steelworkers.  I can identify with workers that have
had a difficult time.      -- Former Vice-President Danforth Quayle
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lauren Crawford  //  crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu
Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:25835 sci.philosophy.meta:3104