HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: anderson@cua.edu
Subject: Re:  understanding and intuition/Also, A question
Organization: The Catholic University of America
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 14:08:33 GMT

In article <1992Dec23.103909.28251@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, mkarimna@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Mellissa Namazi) writes:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Very interesting discussion!  I too think that, in order to
> understand (in every sense of the word) a culture, one must
> participate in it.  Translating that experience is problematic.
> I have studied Iranian culture and I often feel that the
> literature on the subject does not really express the
> culture adequately.  The present discussion raised a question:
> Is it a linguistic problem of expression?
> 
> I'm not expressing this very well, so maybe an example will
> help.  There is a word "tarof" in Persian that is usually
> translated as "ceremonial politeness".  It actually has
> no translation or English counterpart.  This concept is central
> to many Iranian inter personal relations and affects the
> social relations in a fundemental way.  Although I can
> describe this, many of the subtleties or "feel" of this
> cultural component is beyond language.  Any thoughts?

Try William Beeman's "Language, Status and Power in Iran" and
an article by Anne Betteridge on Gift-giving in Iran (appeared in
Anthropological Quarterly, ca 1984-85)

> 
> I also have a more direct question.  I am definately a
> non-specialist (!) but I did do an undergraduate thesis.
> I am now on break and am mulling over some of the problems
> I encountered.  A large problem that later was the foundation
> of the thesis was the difference between how a culture
> describes ITSELF and events/cultural traits etc. that one
> oberserves in contradiction to that description.  Many present
> and past (medieval) scholars incorporated as part of their
> analysis the cultural's perception of itself.  For a long
> time I had a great deal of difficulty because some data just
> could not be reconciled.  Has anyone else encountered a
> similar problem and if so, can you perhaps explain it more
> clearly?  Give more details?
> 
> Sorry for the length, thanks.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Mellissa Namazi
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology
From: buchignani@hg.uleth.ca
Subject: Re: Hutterites Today
Reply-To: buchignani@hg.uleth.ca
Organization: University of Lethbridge
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 21:14:28 GMT

Hutterites continue to thrive; there are about 30,000 today, 2/3rds
in Canada, 1/3 in the U.S. With the qualification that the book
you read probably (as most) provided you with  a highly idea
image of the Hutterites, they have tended to maintain more or
less what they want of that life, and have changed the rest.
Again, with the qualification that colonies are independent, and
hence diverse, they remain communal, rural-based, etc.

There are (by their standards) some rather rapid changes going on re:
more individualized consumer culture, and for men, a greater latitude
in dress and behaviour; Thursdays around here (their traditional
coming to town day) the malls are awash with them...
    Norm Buchignani/University of Lethbridge/BUCHIGNANI@HG.ULETH.CA
"If we have been accustomed to deplore the spectacle...of a workman occupied
during his whole life in nothing else but the making of knife-handles or pins'
heads, we may find something quite as lamentable in the intellectual class, in
the exclusive employment of a human brain in resolving some equations, or in
classifying insects. [This] occasions a miserable indifference about the
general course of human affairs, as long as there are equations to solve and
pins to manufacture."                                      Auguste Comte
From: mdouglas@cad067.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Maria Douglas )
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology
Subject: Re: Cultural Appropriation and the New Age
Date: 30 Dec 92 17:57:47 GMT
Organization: Intel Corp.


-- 
Let me say up front that I am a Christian (in the orthodox sense) and
I am interested in the effect of the New Age on our culture, in 
addition to its spiritual impact on the world in general.  I will leave
my second interest aside for now: while I agree with Ms. Goff on
some points, I'm afraid that her "cultural" analysis was definately
affected by her frustration with the New Age movement and its effect
on traditional values.  These frustrations are experienced by many
orthodox Christians, but would be better discussed (I think) in a
different forum.

One aspect I've noticed of the New Age movement (which, in my opinion,
is a VERY loosely connected group with many different beliefs) is
the unintentional intrusion on the American Indian culture and sacred
sites.  New Agers occasionally visit sacred indian sites, and apparently
there have been complaints issued by certain tribes (I forget which ones,
but I believe they are in New Mexico so please correct me) because
New Agers "violate" their sacred sites with their tramping about.
Also, some cultures are definately offended by New Agers "appropriating"
their beliefs and trying to "loop" these beliefs into some kind of
cosmic scheme.  

On the other hand, this bold exploration into other cultures (of which
religion is such an important part) has certainly helped us all be
more sensitive to and aware of other ethnic groups.  We could ALL
stand to learn some respect for others, even if someone thinks they're
absolutely wrong about one thing or another.  

I believe that the New Age movement is the natural result of our
cultural "melting pot."  Our country was founded on Deism and
Freemasonry, not Christianity per se.  Deism (if I'm not mistaken)
is *similar* to New Age beliefs in that it encompasses all religions
and strives to *extract* a universal deity (a *little* like the
oversoul in Transcendentalism), a single spirit, as it were.
Benjamin Franklin was a Deist and a Freemason, and so was Thomas
Jefferson.  (I studied Deism in one of my Early American Literature
classes a few years ago, since it had such a profound effect on
our founding fathers.)

Well, that's my $.02.  (And, yes, I've *studied* the Bible, and
if the New Testament is not taken out of context with the Old Testa-
ment and the Jewish culture of Jesus' time, it's message is VERY
clear.  Hmmmmm...culture impacting religious beliefs?  AMAZING!)

M-

--
Maria E. Douglas	(408) 765-4728		    
Intel Corporation	mdouglas@cadev6.intel.com  

"Mina!  You're TOTALLY a vampiress!" 
	
	Keanu Reeves as Jonathan Harker in "Dracula"
From: gil@tillage.DIALix.oz.au (Gil Hardwick)
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology
Subject: understanding and intuition/Also, A question
Distribution: world
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 92 00:52:47 GMT
Organization: STAFF STRATEGIES - Anthropologists & Training Agents


In article <g9FawB1w165w@dorsai.com> shire@dorsai.com writes:

 > Mellissa, Though I have been out of the field for years, the problems you 
 > are interested in are the special province of ethnomethodology.  This is 
 > a field of inquiry started by Harold Garfinkel at the sociology 
 > department at UCLA back in the 1960s.  Garfinkel has written only one 
 > book, "Studies in Ethnomethodology" and it is merely a collection of 
 > essays.  His most famous student is Carlos Castaneda.

Thanks for this background, although I was hoping that nobody would
raise it explicitly. I have Garfinkel's book on my own shelves, but
had to this point deliberately not mentioned it here.

My intent has *not* been to pursue the typical and I think pathetic
reaction among mainstream anthropology suggesting that if we were to
take ethnomethodology seriously then we would have no Anthropology.
Rather, we might see it as a challenge to address fundamental issues
of both the quality and the cross-cultural acceptability of the work
of anthropologists.

I see tremendous value there, and a great future for the profession,
provided we can somehow in a non-threatening way overcome the mind-
set of the Western academe. Let us please not let the debate bog down
in the 1960s (*THIRTY* years ago), but from that point of departure
proceed to a substantial discourse which might actually bear fruit.

I had suggested that we negotiate a more appropriate vocabulary here,
to receive a second in the affirmative. Has that motion now been lost
without the results made public? Or might we simply proceed with our
various threads of argument understanding that the vocabulary at our
disposal is (is being) impoverished for some reason?

--
Gil Hardwick                          Internet:  gil@tillage.DIALix.oz.au
Consulting Ethnologist                              Fidonet:  3:690/660.6
PERTH, Western Australia                         Voice:  (+61 9) 399 2401
   * * Sustainable Community Development & Environmental Education * *
From: max@admin.mport.COM (Max)
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology
Subject: Re: Cultural Appropriation and the New Age
Date: 29 Dec 92 23:38:31 GMT
Organization: Microport Inc., Scotts Valley, CA 95066 US of A

goff@intruder.navo.navy.mil (Victoria Goff) writes:

>I suppose I will add my very unpopular opinion to the subject and I'm
>sure I'll get some heat. I know the Lord Jesus Christ and so there is
>no way this Newage religion has any truth to it. I must admit, it does
>seem to neatly explain everything almost as if it were masterminded...
>hummmm...

do not take this as "heat", but what you say in the above paragraph dosent
make sense to me. if you would entertain my questions, id much appreciate
it, as i have little contact with views you describe here.

* do you claim to mearly have an opinion of the bible you have read, or do
you claim to know personaly a possibly mythical figure at least 2000years
old? again, im not baiting you, just curious, as your writing could mean
either.

* you indicate a possibility that you think the new ageers are
"masterminded". who or what do you mean?

>What I think you most want to know, considering where you posted this
>article, is what effect this up and coming religion will have on the
>dominating culture and I will tell you what I think. Christian persecution,
>accelerated moral decay as the society is less and less tolerant of anything
>related to Christianity.

* do you see new age religion in a competition with chrisianity only, or
with all religions in general?

>May I remind you that the first step of indoctrination to the Chinese
>when communism was enforced was a crash course on Darwinism; and are
>we forgetting Hitler who was going to create a master race. 

* surely you dont advocate creationism as a defense against this?

>Man is an animal, survival of the fittest euthenasia abortion...this
>is going to be a cold new world folks. If our parents wanting or not
>wanting us to be born were the critera to our right to be born, I
>daresay most of us would not be alive right now. Aren't you glad
>your parents didn't think that way?

interesting. many people i know have delayed reproducing until they felt
ready for parenthood. generally this means contraception, and on unhappy 
occasion, it has meant abortion. the children they have had since appear to
be happy and well reared due to the carefull planning on the part of their
parents. i would not want to force people to continue a pregnancy they were
not ready for. 

>-Victoria Day Goff         

-max
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology
From: stgprao@st.unocal.COM (Richard Ottolini)
Subject: Re: [ARCH] Re: Which Came First, Agriculture or Pastorial
Organization: Unocal Corporation
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 15:50:50 GMT

Since agriculture was possibily invented several times around the world- mideast,
Harrupa, Chinea, meso AMerica, South America- several answers may right.
From: gil@tillage.DIALix.oz.au (Gil Hardwick)
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology
Subject: Cultural Appropriation and the New Age
Distribution: world
Date: Fri, 01 Jan 93 03:32:52 GMT
Organization: STAFF STRATEGIES - Anthropologists & Training Agents


In article <LEET.92Dec31104023@ibis.ims.com> leet@ims.com writes:

 > It is quite unfortunate that an in-depth discussion of this topic would
 > almost certainly result in a flame war, which is, of course, Usenet
 > culture impacting the free exercise of Christian religious beliefs
 > (i.e., the proclamation of the Good News).

If Usenet is anything at all like Australia, the reason we no longer
want to listen to such "Good News" is because we had it rammed down
our throats all the way through school, accompanied by canings when we
failed to sit straight and pay strict attention to the preacher. Still
today the Christians come around to preach at us on our doorstep, only
respecting *other* people's privacy and beliefs after the householders
learn to be as insistent and intolerant as they are.

Christianity has repeatedly demonstrated throughout history that it is
a cruel, vengeful, intolerant system of belief, and while there is no
restriction on its free exercise in Australia we have laws in place to
protect children from abuse in order to manage its worst impacts. We
strive also against their constant nagging and proselytising to ensure
that there may be a similar free exercise of religious belief accorded
others.

If the US was indeed founded on Christianity, that would certainly
explain the apocalyptic, millenarian scale of destructiveness of their
war against the Vietnamese people in defence of the Roman Catholic
regime which had established itself in Saigon under the auspices of
the previous French colonial administration, typically with no mandate
from among the people themselves.

You might recall, however, that it was people *protesting* against the
European Christian establishment which finally led to popular suffrage
in the US, as well as here in Australia. That process continues slowly
and painfully, as it can be seen quite clearly in South America, The
Philipinnes and Southern Africa, for example, among the last extensive
land masses to be dominated in modern times by Christian orthodoxy and
its bloody, murderous, poverty-stricken consequences.

Other than that, or any other myriad historical examples which can be
dated from the propagation and subsequent militarisation of the urban
mystical sects which had originated in North African monotheism during
the Roman Empire, known for their constant intrigue, squabbling and
fighting over some putative lineage of descent from Christ, the above
thread as it stands is surely of no particular interest to Anthropology.

On the other hand, I would be very happy indeed for a further thread
to continue here provided you demonstrate some willingness to allow
comparative academic debate based on research and field data, framed
within the discourse of Anthropology instead of orthodox Christianity
to the detriment of this discipline.

I look forward to it with glee, in fact.

Gil

Xref: sparky sci.anthropology:1646 sci.archaeology:3067
From: bm665@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jay Robert Hauben)
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology,sci.archaeology
Subject: Re: Louis Leakey
Date: 1 Jan 1993 03:49:02 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bm665@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jay Robert Hauben)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, vgibbs@nmsu.EDU (Victor R Gibbs) says:

>Hi,
>
>I was wondering if anyone out in netland had any useful information on
>Louis Leakey for a paper I am working on. Of particular interest are
>first hand accounts as well as bibliographies or interesting reading 
>materials about the man and his work in Africa etc.
>
>Thanks, 
>
>vgibbs@dante.nmsu.edu
>
Louis and Mary Leakey are important pioneers in our search to understand
who we are by understanding where we have come from. They were good
scientists who had the strength of their understandings and the
patience to spend over 30 years looking for and finding solid evidence
of early human existence in Africa. A book you probably know but is
worth looking at is Discovering the Past, An Autobiography by Mary
Leakey (Double Day, Garden City, NY, 1984 ISBN 0-385-18961-3)
On page 218 Mary Leakey refers to Leakey's Luck by Sonia Cole (NY, 1975)
among other books.

Good luck with your paper. Do post it when it is in draft or final form
so the world can gain from your work and so you can get some feed back
and encouragement.
From: bud@mtek.com (Bud Hovell)
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology
Subject: Re: Cultural Appropriation and the New Age
Date: 30 Dec 92 23:47:25 GMT
Reply-To: bud@mtek.com
Organization: MTEK International, Inc.

mdouglas@cad067.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Maria Douglas ) writes:

>I believe that the New Age movement is the natural result of our
>cultural "melting pot."  Our country was founded on Deism and
>Freemasonry, not Christianity per se.  Deism (if I'm not mistaken)
>is *similar* to New Age beliefs in that it encompasses all religions
>and strives to *extract* a universal deity (a *little* like the
>oversoul in Transcendentalism), a single spirit, as it were.
>Benjamin Franklin was a Deist and a Freemason, and so was Thomas
>Jefferson.  (I studied Deism in one of my Early American Literature
>classes a few years ago, since it had such a profound effect on
>our founding fathers.)

I seem to recall (from study long ago) that Deism was singularly
characterized by the notion that God had set the original universe
in motion, but thereafter simply stood back, taking no active part
in directing subsequent events in this world -- sort of a "cosmic
laissez faire" doctrine.
-- 
________________________________________________________________
bud@mtek.com ... uunet!m2xenix!mtek!bud ... bud@rigel.cs.pdx.edu
MTEK International, Inc.             Throughput Technology Corp.
Walk the talk.
From: oueichek@imag.fr (Ibaa Oueichek)
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology
Subject: Re: Ethnicity of the Carthaginians?
Date: 2 Jan 93 12:51:00 GMT
Organization: IMAG Institute, University of Grenoble, France

In article <2340@newsserver.cs.uwindsor.ca> bouche2@server.uwindsor.ca (BOUCHER DAVID            ) writes:
>Does anybody out there know what was the ethnicity of the people
>of Carthage?  I had heard that Hannibal was black, but I saw a 
  Carthage was built by Phoenicians, who populated the Eastern mediteranian
coast (Now: Lebanon & Syria). The founders came specifically from Tyre, actually
in Lebanon.
>portrait of him on a coin and it was impossible to tell one way or
>another... 
>
>On a related topic, can anyone suggest some generally accepted references on
>black african civilizations prior to european colonialism? 
>
>- db
>


-- 
Sham(u) ya tha (s)seif(u) lam yaghib(i) | Ibaa Oueichek. oueichek@imag.imag.fr
    Ya jamal(al) majd(i) fi(l) kutub(i) | IMAG, INPG.
Kablak(i) (t)tareekh(u) fi thulmaten    | Grenoble. 
    Baadak(i) staula ala (sh)shuhub(i)  |
From: 6500cga@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu (Fegliano Barumfski)
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology
Subject: Re: Yanomami warring & sexal frustration.
Date: 25 Dec 92 20:34:31 GMT
Article-I.D.: ucsbcsl.7206

iadt1jm@prism.gatech.EDU (Jean McSpadden) writes:

>I remember his argument as going something like this:

>Because there  is a need for nutritionally abundant game animals men, 
>as hunters, are valued more the females who do not hunt.

>Because there is a lack of meat there is a need for passive and/or 
>active infanticide to control the population, and since because of that lack 
>females are devalued, there is much more female then male infanticide.

>Because of female infanticide there are many more Yanomami man then women.

>Thus the men are sexually frustrated.                           
>Jean McSpadden

The first problem is: How do we apply Harris's formula where there is plenty
of meat?

The second problem with Harris's theory is that the female infanticide is not
actually documented. In the article he did with Divale, he assumed a 105.5
sex ratio (105.5 males for every 100 females) at birth.  This number is taken
from the average at birth sex ratios for industrial societies.  When Harris and
Divale found TEENAGE sex ratios in non industrial societies of 130 or more
BING BANG... Female Infanticide!  Much infanticide literature, points to disease
or parental uncertainty as the cause; not sex specific, hunger driven filicide.
Demographic studies of at birth sex ratios in non industrial societies suggest
that sex ratios are influenced by environment, therefore the 105.5 may not hold
in Yanomamo land.

Last: Why do we need all this to explain sexual frustration? 

-Feg
From: delancey@darkwing.uoregon.edu (Scott C DeLancey)
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology
Subject: Re: Ethnicity of the Carthaginians?
Date: 2 Jan 1993 21:04:22 GMT
Organization: University of Oregon Network Services
NNTP-Posting-Host: darkwing.uoregon.edu

In article <1993Jan1.224411.1@acad3.alaska.edu> nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu writes:

>Must not forget MAdagasgar (bit that was a mixed Black African Arab Trader
>country. Reason for the rise of Swahili. A trade tongue based on a Bantu Lingo
>with a lot of borrowing from arabic..

Just for the record, the language of Madagascar is Malagasy, which is
Autronesian, related to Malay-Indonesian and the Polynesian languages.
This is, as far as I know, also the major ethnic/cultural element on
the island.

Scott DeLancey
Department of Linguistics 
University of Oregon
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology
From: bouche2@server.uwindsor.ca (BOUCHER DAVID            )
Newsgroups: sci.anthropology,sci.archaeology
Subject: Ethnicity of the Carthaginians?
Date: 2 Jan 1993 05:40:22 GMT
Followup-To: sci.anthropology
Organization: University of Windsor, Ontario, Canada

Does anybody out there know what was the ethnicity of the people
of Carthage?  I had heard that Hannibal was black, but I saw a 
portrait of him on a coin and it was impossible to tell one way or
another... 

On a related topic, can anyone suggest some generally accepted references on
black african civilizations prior to european colonialism? 

- db
From: mkarimna@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Mellissa Namazi)
Subject: Re:  understanding and intuition/Also, A question
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 10:39:09 GMT


Hello,

Very interesting discussion!  I too think that, in order to
understand (in every sense of the word) a culture, one must
participate in it.  Translating that experience is problematic.
I have studied Iranian culture and I often feel that the
literature on the subject does not really express the
culture adequately.  The present discussion raised a question:
Is it a linguistic problem of expression?

I'm not expressing this very well, so maybe an example will
help.  There is a word "tarof" in Persian that is usually
translated as "ceremonial politeness".  It actually has
no translation or English counterpart.  This concept is central
to many Iranian inter personal relations and affects the
social relations in a fundemental way.  Although I can
describe this, many of the subtleties or "feel" of this
cultural component is beyond language.  Any thoughts?

I also have a more direct question.  I am definately a
non-specialist (!) but I did do an undergraduate thesis.
I am now on break and am mulling over some of the problems
I encountered.  A large problem that later was the foundation
of the thesis was the difference between how a culture
describes ITSELF and events/cultural traits etc. that one
oberserves in contradiction to that description.  Many present
and past (medieval) scholars incorporated as part of their
analysis the cultural's perception of itself.  For a long
time I had a great deal of difficulty because some data just
could not be reconciled.  Has anyone else encountered a
similar problem and if so, can you perhaps explain it more
clearly?  Give more details?

Sorry for the length, thanks.

Regards,

Mellissa Namazi
Xref: sparky sci.anthropology:1635 sci.archaeology:3061