HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Looking for Magical Books
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1992 21:04:14 -0600

 MMC> I remember reading a book some years back that dealt 
 MMC> with a young magician's education in a college of 
 MMC> magicians and his first adventure, where he went out 
 MMC> to defeat a more experienced mage.  This might fit 
 MMC> your category of heirarcy among magicians.  The name 
 MMC> of the book is _Crispin Magicker_, but I don't 
 MMC> remember the author.  Any help there would be 
 MMC> appreciated.

The author's name is Mark Lowenthal.  I know the name not because I've read the
book (though I mean to one of these days) but because he was a big winner in
JEOPARDY! (five-time winner and $100,000 in the Tournament of Champions), and he
mentioned that he'd sold an SF book.  I was curious enough to look it up.

 * Origin: Beth's Point: Minneapolis, MN (1:282/341.5)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: YANJUNA@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu
Subject: Re: s -- Greg Bear
Organization: Yale University
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 92 01:12:07 EDT

+3: Queen of Angels
+2: Blood Music
+1: Eon
              Junsok Yang (YANJUNA @ YALE)
From: stjohns@hamlet.umd.edu (Mike St. Johns)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Need help finding short story/novelette....
Date: 6 Oct 92 12:51:00 GMT
Organization: UofMaryland, College Park
In-reply-to: lairdb@crash.cts.com's message of 5 Oct 92 23:43:14 GMT

In article <lairdb.718328594@crash> lairdb@crash.cts.com (Laird P. Broadfield) writes:

   Here's the clue:  In the society (which, as I recall was either the US,
   or some sort of US-outgrowth, e.g. "North American Federation") when
   a child got to be 18 (or whatever the age of majority was) they were 
   required to sign (literally, as in you go down to the post office or
   some such) an "Articles of Citizenship" (something like that) that spelled
   out the rights and obligations.  Rather as if we were to sign the 
   Constitution when we turned 18.

   Vague recollection that this might have been a Heinlein juvenile, but
   I can't think of one that it would make sense in.  Help?

This was the LaNague Federation series by F Paul Wilson - its recently
been reissued as a single book, but was originally published (after a
short story stint in Analog (?)) as "Healer", "Wheels Within Wheels"
and another one about the founding of the federation I can't recall at
this time.  The planet wher you had to sign the "constitution" was
Tolive.

Mike
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: mab@wdl39.wdl.loral.com (Mark A Biggar)
Subject: Re: _Winds of Change_ by Mercedes Lackey (spoilers now)
Organization: Loral Western Development Labs
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 21:40:51 GMT

In article <1992Sep30.004554.20676@netcom.com> dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig) writes:
>Have you noticed, btw, how cheap Adept status has gotten?  In earlier 
>books, a mage-gifted student spent a decade or so learning enough to
>achieve journeyman status.  (We're told at one point that they don't
>learn weapon skills because there simply isn't time.)  Then they have
>to go out into the world to gain the practical experience needed to
>work up to Masterclass and Adept, over a period of years.  Now we have
>Elspeth ("your mind-magic lessons gave you a good grounding in the
>basics") becoming an Adept over a period of a few months.

My impression was that that path to Adept was how the "White Winds" school
that Kethery belonged to did it.  They built up by self study and that earning
a living slowed them down.  Other schools may have other lines of study and
who knowns what the typical hawksib mage's schooling is like.  Also from
internal clues I done think that the "Oath" books take much more then
about 4 or 5 years max.  In that time Kethery goes from journeyman to adept
with out the help of training from any other mage.  Not only does she have to
practice with out help but probably has to make up her technique as she goes
along (of course grounded in the basics learned as an apprentice.)

Also I don't think that Elspeth is an adept yet, just master class.  Yet 
another reason for Darkwind to go back home with her.

--
Mark Biggar
mab@wdl1.wdl.loral.com
From: tdober@llnl.gov (TDO)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Diane Duane, _Door Into Fire_
Date: 5 Oct 92 22:06:01 GMT
Followup-To: rec.arts.sf.written
Organization: llnl

ciar04@vaxa.strath.ac.uk:
>Regarding the idea of members of the same sex being lovers, Mercedes
>Lackey's The Last Herald Mage series contains the same idea (called
>shay a'chern).  Wonder who got the inspiration from whom.

...since we *all* *know* there are *never* *any* same-sex lovers in Real
Life, they *must* have just made the notion up out of thin air!


(Where *do* these people come from? And can we send them back?)

TDO (hoping the above poster wasn't really serious...please?)
--
#include "StdDisclaimer.h"

Pain, like time, is going to come on regardless. Question is, what glorious
moments can you win from life in addition to the pain? -- Lois McMaster
Bujold, _Barrayar_
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.sf.misc
From: cmeadows@nyx.cs.du.edu (Chris Meadows)
Subject: Roger Zelazny: Amber Novel, and Is There a Fan Group?
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix @ U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 92 20:53:11 GMT


This question has two parts to it.
 
PART THE FIRST:
  A couple of weeks ago, a list of new books being released this fall
that was posted here mentioned a new Roger Zelazny Amber book, AFTER
_Prince_of_Chaos_, as well as PoC itself coming out in paperback.  At
least, I THINK it did...If so, could someone tell me about this book,
exactly when it will be out, and what it will be about?
 
PART THE SECOND:
  Are there any alt groups devoted to Roger Zelazny fandom, as there 
are for Douglas Adams, Terry Pratchett, and Piers Anthony?

Thanks...
                    ---Chris Meadows
From: jc@crosfield.co.uk (jerry cullingford)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Sexual Politics and Diane Duane (was re Diane Duane, _D into Fire_)
Date: 6 Oct 92 13:34:36 GMT
Organization: Crosfield Electronics, Hemel Hempstead, United Kingdom.

In article <BvMEy3.7sy@acsu.buffalo.edu> v075q5fr@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Scott J Gorcey) writes:
>In article <1992Oct3.150611.16782@news.cs.indiana.edu>, gemerson@cherry.ucs.indiana.edu (gennis emerson) writes..
>> The plot seemed sort of a side issue to the
>>presentation of the relationships and the "look how reasonable we are about
>>sleeping with each other" attitude.
>
>     No it didn't.  Maybe it's just that you couldn't get past
>     the fact that they were both men and so felt compelled to
>     think about that aspect every time Herewiss and Freelorn
>     made some innocuous comment that a knight-and-princess
>     couple would have made without raising an eyebrow.
>     If you accept, "They're men, they're lovers," you'll see
>     that Duane doesn't harp on it needlessly - only when it's
>     necessary to the plot.

Well, I'll weigh in somewhere between these two views :-)

The basic premise is reasonable enough, but I think that Duane did tend to
get slightly preachy about it in the first book. Compared with the second
and third books, the first one does go slightly overboard (IMO, IMO :-) )
although some of that may just the need to establish the background - It
reminds me of what the guy that recommended it to me years back said - "Good
book if you don't mind the Gay Rights preachiness".

On the other hand, as far as I can remember from the introduction, I think
TDIF was (one of?) her first book(s?), so you can make allowance for that;
certainly the other two books (so far) in the series take the background
for granted - which, IMHO, is a better way to do it - as opposed to the
originals slightly heavy handed 'nobody in this world thinks it's a big deal
but I'm going to hammer it home regularly anyway' approach. I think that's
the main problem - the book is a lot less subtle at establishing this part of
the background than the other background areas - which tends to make it
stand out more than it's contribution to the plot really needs.

By the later books, the background is established, Duane's had a lot more
experience of writing, and the story has taken over from the setting, and
there are lots more great ideas coming in...

Highly recommended - the later books are excellent, and the first one is
pretty good for a first novel.

-- 
+------------------------------------------------------------------+     |
| Jerry Cullingford  #include <std.disclaimer> +44 442 230000 x3868|   ,-|--
| jc@crosfield.co.uk (jc@cel.uucp) or jc@selune.demon.co.uk        |   \_|__
+-----(Work)---------------------------------(home)----------------+ \___/
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: xoanon@carina.unm.edu (timothy k istian soholt)
Subject: Simak (Was Re: author'n'title...)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 17:21:04 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

msmith@beta.tricity.wsu.edu (Dragon Lord) writes:

>BINGO!!  Clifford D. Simak!!!  Excellent author!!  By the way, is Simak
>still around!?!

Unfortunately, no. Simak died in '89, I believe. Within a few months
of Heinlein.

-- Tim Soholt (xoanon@carina.unm.edu), The Man With No .sig

Xref: sparky rec.arts.sf.written:13069 sci.lang:7367
From: EZ-as-pi@cup.portal.com (Bruce Robert Gilson)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,sci.lang
Subject: Re: Science Fiction books with linguistic content
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 92 13:07:14 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world

One short story I rather liked was 
Poul Anderson's "Delenda Est," which
I first saw in an anthology that had
come out in the 1960s (though I got
the book much later) called "Worlds of
Maybe" but which I understand was 
incorporated as a chapter in a recent
Anderson book. A major part of the
story has linguistic content -- based
on a scenario that someone undid the
Second Punic War and Carthage became
a major power in Europe. Anderson
creates at least two languages that
might have been - a Celtic language
with Semitic loanwords that would be
used in North America, and a Germanic
language spoken by tribes that took
over the Italy that had a power vacuum.
Only short scraps of each are used, but
it certainly qualifies.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,sci.lang
From: richwing@leland.Stanford.EDU (Rich Wingerter)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction books with linguistic content
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 92 04:29:20 GMT

Don't forget "A Clockwork Orange" with its quaint futuristic version of
anglicized Russian.


--Rich Wingerter
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: jbeason@s.psych.uiuc.edu (Joseph E. Beason)
Subject: Re: C.J. Cherryh, Women characters in SF
Organization: UIUC Department of Psychology
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 20:31:07 GMT

Wow, this is really interesting.  I find both Cherryh and Tepper's women
fscinating, and her men kind of underwritten.  "Cyteen"'s Emory (do i have
yhe name right?) was beautifully constructed, as was the female azi.  I
kept wanting to slap the men in the story, though i guess most of them were
designed to ber basket cases.

Tepper's Jinian was and is a fabulous character (IMHO).  She's so capable,
and yet so vulnerable.

The Chanur females are all well rendered, though they are the parallels of  
men in our species, I guess.  (Strongly brought out in "Legacy of Chanur".)

Tepper's Maia (I think that's the name) in her horror novels is great, as
are the protagonists of "Sideshow" and "Grass".

Both authors seem well-versed in portraying strong women who make mistakes
and are very emotional, but who succeed both in spite of and because of
these traits.  Her women also are good at standing alone.  Too often in
fantasy and sf, female characters are defined to a great extent by who
they're hot for.

Joe
From: zcakilh@ucl.ac.uk (Miss Chee Mei Yeoh)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Andromeda Strain
Summary: Is it still in print?
Date: 4 Oct 92 00:56:36 GMT
Organization: Bloomsbury Computing Consortium, London

Is Michael Crichton's 'Andromeda Strain' still in print? (or where might it
be avaiable in London?) Also, given that I rather enjoyed it, could someone
recommend science-fiction books like it [and like Fred Hoyle's 'The Black
Cloud'] where the emphasis is on science?
From: cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Books I Love to Hate (e.g., Orbital Resonance)
Date: 1 Oct 1992 16:35:17 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article <MATT.92Oct1011457@physics.berkeley.edu> matt@physics.berkeley.edu writes:
>
>To me, _Podkayne_ was a very heavy-handed sermon on the evils of
>uppity girls aspiring to anything more than traditional female roles. ...

Heinlein admits as much in one of his letters--to be found in _Grumbles
from the Grave_, I think--but it isn't _Podkayne_ he's trashing, it's
her _mother._  Mother spent her time doing science and not paying enough
attention to her kids and that is why Clarkie, in particular, turned out
so rotten.

Since my kids were in daycare from ages 2 and 4 onwards, and at 16 and
18 have turned out very nicely, thank you, I'm not impressed; and if I'd
known what his point was years ago, I'd have written him a shirty letter
while he was still alive to read it.


Dorothy J. Heydt
UC Berkeley
Disclaimer: This is the Cozzarelli Lab's account, not mine--but I don't
think anybody else ever reads it.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: thom@access.digex.com (The Elf-Lad)
Subject: Re: Diane Duane, _Door into Fire_
Organization: Express Access Public Access UNIX, Greenbelt, Maryland USA
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 14:48:37 GMT

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Diane Duane, _Door Into Fire_

ciar04@vaxa.strath.ac.uk writes:

>Regarding the idea of members of the same sex being lovers, Mercedes
>Lackey's The Last Herald Mage series contains the same idea (called
>shay a'chern).  Wonder who got the inspiration from whom.

<giggle> Misty or Diane invented same sex love? Golly, I'm only 30, 
and I was doing it before either The Door Into Fire or The Last
Herald Mage were published. :)

-- 
Thom Watson, the Elf-Lad         elf-lad@access.digex.com <-----preferred
                                 elflad0@aol.com         elf-lad@glib.org
                                 GEmail=T.WATSON7
"What sane person could live in this world and not be crazy?"--U.K.LeGuin
From: cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: ubiquitous Arthurian mythos
Date: 30 Sep 1992 21:00:20 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Sep30.202311.26880@news.acns.nwu.edu> craig@ariel.earth.nwu.edu (Craig R. Bina) writes:
>
>...  Why the constant Arthurian rehash?

Because they are good stories, capable of (almost) endless reworking.
They are medieval stories, and the medieval pattern was to take a story
people already knew and tell it again, trying to outdo those who had
told it before.  In fact, if you came up with a _new_ plot, you were
expected to pretend you'd found it in some old book that your audience
didn't have access to.  

If you're tired of the Matter of Britain, you could try writing something
in the Matter of Troy (Trojan War and Aeneid) or the Matter of France
(Charlemagne, Roland, etc.).  And all your readers would say, "Wow,
what neat new plots!  How could he possibly make all this up!?"



Dorothy J. Heydt
UC Berkeley
Disclaimer: This is the Cozzarelli Lab's account, not mine--but I don't
think anybody else ever reads it.
From: mjb@doc.ic.ac.uk (Matthew J Brown)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Books I Hate to Love
Date: 4 Oct 92 16:47:25
Organization: Department Of Computing, Imperial College, London.
NNTP-Posting-Host: oak7.doc.ic.ac.uk
In-reply-to: morrow@fnalo.fnal.gov's message of 1 Oct 92 07:27:36 GMT

In article <1992Oct1.012736.1@fnalo.fnal.gov> morrow@fnalo.fnal.gov (Lake Elmo, MN) writes:
>In article <1ad5nsINNqrj@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, sdh5@po.CWRU.Edu (Scott D. Hurley) writes:
>> This train of thought reminds me of an observation I've made
>> lately--is it just my imagination, or does there seem to be
>> a shifting trend towards protagonistic villains, antagonists so
>> wonderfully shaped that one ends up rooting for them instead of
>> the 'Good Guys'?
>> 
>> Classic examples are Kahn Noonion Soong (I think that's how it is
>> spelled), of Star Trek:  The Saurons of Pournelle's Co-Dominion
>> universe: and The Lady of Glen Cook's _Annals_of_The_Black_
>> Company_ series.
>
>	   Quibble:  Lady switched sides.  She's a good guy, now.  The
>transformation was well developed over a long time, and Cook is to be commended
>for his craftsmanship.
>	   Damn, but I wish the next book would come out!  Lady's got her magic
>back and she's PISSED OFF....

Actually I thought there were no true good guys in the Black Company
books - just bad guys on a human scale (the Company, the Lady, most of
the Rebels, some of the Taken) against evil on an inhuman scale (the
Dominator and his minions). The Lady just enjoyed playing the bad-guy
role ... The Dominator is, as far as I recall, just about the only
major character for whom you can feel no sympathy - almost all the
others have a good side and a bad side.

-Matt

--
| Matthew J. Brown  | Dept. of Computing | If God intended for us to go to   |
| mjb@doc.ic.ac.uk  | Imperial College,  | lectures He wouldn't have created |
| mjb02@cc.ic.ac.uk | 180 Queen's Gate   | double-sided photocopiers.        |
| Morven on Lambda  | LONDON SW7 2AZ     |          -IC RagMag 1991/92       |
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: dietz@cs.rochester.edu (Paul Dietz)
Subject: Re: Any comments on ENTROVERSE by James Hogan?
Organization: Computer Science Department University of Rochester
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 14:33:11 GMT

In article <1992Sep28.135046.25710@email.tuwien.ac.at> holger@vmars.tuwien.ac.at (Holger Reusch (Dipl. Gerhard + Joe)) writes:

  > I truly admire objective, in-depth, well-thought-out reviews like
  > that one. :-)

Oh, I'm sorry.  Here's a more detailed assessment.  The
characterization is bad, the dialogue is contrived, the science is
ridiculous, the aliens are people in costumes, the plots are idiotic.

(Don't hold back, Paul.  Tell us how you really feel.)

  > Actually, I liked _Entoverse_, although it wasn't good enough to leave
  > a memorable impression.  The first book in the series, _Inherit the
  > Stars_, is IMHO Hogan's best book and one of my favorite books overall.
  > But Hogan is a buy-on-sight author for me, anyway.

ItS is an example of a "ballistic novel": half way through it, you
want to hurl it across the room.  The science is so awful that it
can only be read as a kind of parody.

Hogan's been on my "do not buy" list for a long time, and is
now firmly, if belatedly, on my "do not bother to read" list.

	Paul F. Dietz
	dietz@cs.rochester.edu

	Aside from that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?
From: ELKOWITZ@LENORE.TCH.HARVARD.EDU (Resistance is Futile)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: RE: SF-LOVERS Digest   V17 #491
Date: 30 Sep 92 17:53:38 GMT

> David Brin has submitted his latest novel, _Stratos_, to the publishers.
> It is not an Uplift novel, and will be on the shelves in mid-1993.

> He is currently working on the next Uplift novel, now titled _Brightness
> Reef_. It will feature the members of the _Streaker_ crew who remained on
> board the ship (i.e. Gillian, Makanee, Lucky Kaa, etc.)  rather than those
> on the skiff (Tom Orley, Toshio, Dennie, Charles Dart, Creideiki, etc.).

Just when I thought it was safe to go back into the bookstore.

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: rob@hoster.eng.ohio-state.edu (Rob Carriere)
Subject: Re: Tasteless lack of imagination
Organization: The Ohio State University Dept of Electrical Engineering
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 06:00:37 GMT

In article <921001092542.20200127@LENORE.TCH.HARVARD.EDU>
ELKOWITZ@LENORE.TCH.HARVARD.EDU (Resistance is Futile) writes: 
>[attribution lost]
>> There are many fantasy authors today who grew up reading science fiction
>> and fantasy and not the works in which the books they read were grounded.
>> The result is almost a consensus fantasy universe.  
>
>Yes.  And with all of the imagination of a knock-off television show.  Which
>probably explains the popularity of fantasy novels _and_ television.

Err, gentlecritters, reality check time.  First, most of the `first generation
fantasists' also wrote in a consensus reality: European myth.  Second, writing
in a consensus reality, by itself, is not enough to make the work unoriginal
or otherwise low quality.  See for example Kay's Tapestry.

SR
---
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: cboeker@batph78.bnr.ca (Craig Boeker)
Subject: Re: The Dragon Reborn
Reply-To: cboeker@bnr.ca
Organization: BNR Atlanta
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1992 20:57:57 GMT

In article <1992Sep30.210714.26107@ists.ists.ca>, dchhabra@stpl.ists.ca (Deepak CHHABRA) writes:
|> In article <yshah.717542872@lucpul.it.luc.edu> yshah@lucpul.it.luc.edu (Guessing) writes:
|> >
|> >all the "details" as some put it....there simply just too much of it.  I got
|> >tired of "Rand does better with girls..." constantly throughout the book.
|> 
|> I thought this thread was hilarious.
|> 

Did you notice that each of the three boys (Mat, Perrin and Rand) though
  that the other two were better with girls?  Although it was a bit
  repetitious I found it amusing (and will admit it took me a while to
  catch on to it).

-- 
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Craig Boeker                                                              |
| cboeker@bnr.ca        It was like that when I got here.                   |
| BNR Atlanta                                                               |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: rowe@soda.glorantha.berkeley.edu (Eric Rowe)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Heinlein reference in Sturgeons "The Golden Helix"
Date: 6 Oct 92 17:34:51
Organization: UCB Integrative Biology
NNTP-Posting-Host: soda.berkeley.edu
In-reply-to: rorschak@daimi.aau.dk's message of 6 Oct 92 18:54:05 GMT

Well, unless Anson MacDonald is a pseudonym of Heinleins this reference is
incorrect. I have the story Goldfish Bowl in Groff Conklin's _The Golden Age
of Science Fiction_. It has _Goldfish Bowl_ by Anson MacDonald published in
Astounding Science Fiction in 1942. I don't know where people are getting
all these other references from.

eric
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.books
From: wwhitman@nevada.edu (MICHAEL WISE)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction books with linguistic content
Organization: University of Nevada System Computing Services
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 07:00:45 GMT

>>Best Book in this category:
>>Samuel Delaney's Babel 17
>>
>>Michael Wise
>>Fearing and Loathing at UNLV
>>
>
>
>Oh _man_, I struggle all the way through this thread and the SubG/CY
>debate, only to find that wwhitman has made my point already.
>
>Hell.
>
>Kate
>

In Las Vegas, we cover our bets. Post early and post often.
Michael Wise
Still Fearing and Loathing