From: tensmekl@infonode.ingr.com (Kermit Tensmeyer)
Subject: Re: Mormonism
Organization: Intergraph Corporation, Huntsville, AL.
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 21:24:01 GMT

In article <C0HxI3.JKx@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps) writes:
>In article <1993Jan7.150848.6190@infonode.ingr.com> tensmekl@infonode.ingr.com (Kermit Tensmeyer) writes:
>>In article <994Y02Jd30Fv01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> agr00@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose) writes:
>>>
>>>Was John the Baptist fooling himself when we wrote, "These things I have
>>>written that you may KNOW that you have eternal life."...?
>>
>>  Are you sure that it was John the Baptist that said that? 
>>
>>  Jesus said (John 10:27-28) "My Sheep hear my voice and I know them,
>>  and they follow me, and I give unto them eternal life..."
>>
>>
>> Let's assume that it was John the Baptist that made the quote as you 
>> have above (I really couldn't find the reference).  John the B.
>> talks about the written word, and Jesus talks about "hearing" the voice
>> and then recieving (active tense) eternal life.
>
>   If I may be of assistance, the quotation from which that is derived
>is 1 John 5:13: "These things have I written unto you that believe on
>the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal
>life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."
>
>   That John is definitely not John the Baptist, but may be John the
>Apostle and/or Evangelist.
>
>Steve Creps, Indiana University


 Steve is right, thanks steve

 The original discussion was on the reliablity of spiritual witnesss and/or
 acceptablity of knowledge.

 Let me add the context of the quote from 1 John 5 5-15 KJV

 "Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus
  is the Son of God?

 "This is he that cameth by water and by blood, even Jesus Christ; not
  by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the spirit that bearth
  witness, because the spirit is truth.

 "For there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water,
  and the blood: and these three agree in one,

 "If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this
  is the witness of God which he hath testified of his son.

 "He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself; he that
  believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the
  record that God gave of his Son.

 "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this
  life is in his Son.

 "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath
  not life.

 "These Things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son
  of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe
  on the name of the Son of God.

 "And this is the confidence that we have in him, that if we ask anything 
  according to his will, he hearth us;

 "And if we know that he hear us, whatsover we ask, we know that we have
  the petition that we desire of him."

 	This text as contained in the scripture does _not_ support the
	proof-text useage that the subjective witness of the Spirit is
	not to be trusted

	Did you really want to argue that the subjective spiritual 
	witness is _not_ the method that God uses to verify _his_ work?


-- 
         Kermit Tensmeyer                         | Intergraph Corporation
   klt@kt8127.b23a.ingr.com                       | Deep in Dixie