HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: territories vs the territories
Date: 23 Jul 92 19:11:43 GMT
	<21999@venera.isi.edu> <1992Jul22.195653.22786@rs.com>
Organization: USC/Information Sciences Institute
In-reply-to: horen@rs.com's message of 23 Jul 92 02:56:53 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.195653.22786@rs.com> horen@rs.com (Jonathan B. Horen) writes:
>
> In article <21999@venera.isi.edu> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
> >
> >Well, I figured the only way to finally resolve this was to contact
> >those who *really* know.  So I called the State Department's Passport
> >Agency Coordinator's office in Washington, DC (202-647-6634).  My
> >questions were relayed to "the duty officer" (Barbara something-or-
> >other), who responded saying that someone born in Jerusalem could either
> >have Israel listed or not -- it was their choice.  She says a person
> >will not be forced to have it one way or another.  My questions were
> >being relayed back and forth through the person who answered the phone,
> >and I didn't have a chance to ask if this had always been the policy
> >(i.e., if my daughter was advised erroneously in 1990) or if this
> >represented some change from the past.
> >
> >In any case, it is clear that Jerusalem is treated as not necessarily
> >part of Israel.  Although I didn't ask, I doubt someone born in
> >Amsterdam, say, could have their place of birth listed simply as
> >"Amsterdam" and not "Amsterdam, The Netherlands".
>
> I hear it differently: that the US Passport Agency allows *the one
> requesting the passport* to treat Jerusalem as not necessarily part
> of Israel. As you wrote, they stated that "-- it was their choice".

That's a strange way of putting it, you'll have to admit.  After all,
the Passport Agency (probably) doesn't allow people IN GENERAL to decide
to list only their city of birth for POB.  This is done only for
Jerusalem.  So they are clearly treating Jerusalem differently.

I could be convinced otherwise, if you showed me that one had the same
option available if born in a French or Dutch city, say, or that they
had it also if born in Tel Aviv, or Haifa (after 48).
--
Yigal Arens   "He seems like an average type of man.  He's not, like, smart.
USC/ISI        I'm not trying to bag on him or anything, but he has the same
arens@isi.edu  mentality I have -- and I'm in the eighth grade."     Vanessa
               Martinez, after VP Quayle's visit to her school-LA Times 5/21
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss)
Subject: Re: Sovereignty (Jerusalem, Hebron, Nablus)
Organization: NCR E&M Columbia SC.
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 18:26:27 GMT

In article <kd-mdpd.analyst@netcom.com> analyst@netcom.com (David Sternlight) writes:
>
>Nabil Idriss proposes we internationalize the whole country of Israel.
>That sounds fair to me, provided we also internationalize Egypt, Syria,
>Lebanon, Iran and Iraq (have I left anyone out).
>
>Wait, let's internationalize everything. Of course we'd need someone to
>administer each area. They should be skilled and experienced.
>
>Wait-I have it! Let's put each area in charge of the existing governments.
>H'mm. I gues that means Israel gets to run itself after all.
>
>:-)
>
>-- 
>David Sternlight        David Sternlight Inc.        email:analyst@netcom.COM


That is a good idea. Let us make the whole world one country and let George
Bush be the president. "New World order".
-- 
Nabil Idriss                           |       FOR EVERY ACTION AN OPPOSITE  
NCR - Midrange Products Division       |       AND EQUAL REACTION.
      Columbia, South Carolina         |      
email: nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM |
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: nyh@joseph.WPI.EDU (Nevo Y Hed)
Subject: New mailing list - Israel-Mideast
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 00:17:02 GMT


I hope this is not a re-post - I didn't see it yet...
It was sent to Israeline recipients - but some of us that do not wish
to read Israeline might wanna read israel-mideast.

	-Nevo

------------------------------------------

Dear Israel Line recipient,
 
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or bulletin boards as possible.



-- 
Nevo Y.	 Hed              nyh@wpi.wpi.edu
++1-508-754-2491          CS student, Worcester Polytechnic Institute.
"I like my cigar too, but I take it out of my mouth from time to time" G.Marx
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Subject: Re: Israel Cancels Building in the West Bank
Reply-To: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 02:23:16 GMT


In a previous article, hallam@zeus02.desy.de (Phillip M. Hallam-Baker) says:
>
>As to the initial question, why Israel had to move first, this is mainly
>because Shamir followed a maximalist line and undermined any confidence
>that Israel was serious about the peace talks. Rabin had to demonstrate
>that this was not the case as a matter of urgency.
>
Talk about maximalist lines!  The Arab demands are, to start with, that
Israel must withdraw from every square inch of territory it captured in
1948 before the Arabs start talking about peace.  Of course, if Israel did
that, the Arabs would have little incentive left, since they'd be halfway
towards their proclaimed ultimate goal of the complete elimination of the
"Zionist cancer".

One "minimalist" step the Arabs might take is publicly renouncing that
goal, which remains as part of the PLO terrorist charter, and also publicly
proclaiming that they are interested in a territorial compromise.
-- 
bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: idfriedm@hertz.waterloo.edu (id friedman)
Subject: Re: FACTS EVERY ISRAEL BASHER MUST AVOID!
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 22:41:48 GMT

In article <22002@venera.isi.edu> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
>In article <1992Jul22.130849.1050@wpi.WPI.EDU> nyh@wpi.WPI.EDU (Nevo Y Hed) writes:
>>
>> In article <1992Jul22.055738.8110@mcs.kent.edu> rayes@Snake.mcs.kent.edu (Sandra Rayes) writes:
>> >In article <EeOr_aW00WB2EUcVcI@andrew.cmu.edu> Radu Eugen Edelstein <re0x+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>> >>
>> >>I say:
>> >>How do you explain the fact that the piles of rocks were prepared
>> >>in advance, that the "worshipers" went directly to those piles at
>> >
>> >HAHAHAHA...what a load of crap!  How were the Muslims supposed to
>> >know that right-wingers planned a rally that day?  Do they make
>> >a habit of informing their enemies of their rallies?
>>
>> I donno abput prepared piles but they knew that there was a rallie -
>> it was banned and they were informed - see Ben David's post WRT
>> investigation.
>
>Is it the contention of Mr. Hed, and Mr. Ben David before him, that the
>Palestinians are supposed to take for granted that Israeli court orders
>will be obeyed by the religious/nationalist fanatics in question, and
>that if not, then the Israeli police and/or military will successfully
>enforce such orders?
>
>Certainly even you guys can recall very many actions taken by settlers
>and their friends that were contrary to court orders, laws, military
>commands, and government decisions.  Many of these were retroactively
>accepted and even supported by the authorities in question.  Need I
>mention examples?
>
>I don't think one has to accuse the Palestinians of duplicity or malice
>just because they took some defensive measures against a known plan by

                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


Throwing huge stones by the scores at innocent worshippers in  Israel's
holiest Jewish site, a "defensive" measure!!

Most of these worshippers had nothing to do with the "fanatics".

P.S Even if they did, does this justify throwing stones at them?



How the hell is throwing stones down the Dome into the Wall at people not
involved in the protest going to do anything except provoke retaliation?

>Jewish extremists to foment trouble in the mosque area.  And nobody
>denies that such a plan did in fact exist.
>--
>Yigal Arens   "He seems like an average type of man.  He's not, like, smart.
>USC/ISI        I'm not trying to bag on him or anything, but he has the same
>arens@isi.edu  mentality I have -- and I'm in the eighth grade."     Vanessa
>               Martinez, after VP Quayle's visit to her school-LA Times 5/21


Ishay
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Want facts? "WHO RUNS THE MEDIA? The Alarming Facts"
From: scott@anasaz (Scott Gibson)
Date: 13 Jul 92 19:49:08 GMT
Reply-To: scott@qip.UUCP (Scott Gibson)
Organization: Anasazi, Inc.  Phoenix, Az

In article <QeKbMKq00WB_8hgJw5@andrew.cmu.edu> re0x+@andrew.cmu.edu (Radu Eugen Edelstein) writes:
>
>The number of postings you had against the policies of the state
>of Israel has been much greater than that that you posted
>about other countries in the ME (including Syria).  This
>disproportion indicates a bias you have against Israel (and
>Israelis) and it is too obvious to be unnoticed.  Until YOUR
>postings don't get more balanced, what you write will be
>easy to declare insignificant as an issue compared to similar
>examples from the ME.


Well, Mr. Edelstein, you got me!  If you would prefer that Israel be
expected to lower it's standards of moral and ethical behaviour to that
of Syria, then by all means, have at it.

It might profit you to actually read the postings to which you respond,
you know!






-- 
But you knew your figure cut a cipher/ Through every crafted plan/ And 
playing our game for real/ Saw through our plumbing jobs/ And wayward glands/
To a meaning of your own, in bones."  - Iain M. Banks, "Use of Weapons"
Scott Gibson                   {ames!ncar!noao!asuvax,mcdphx}!anasaz!qip!scott
Disclaimer:  These opinions are my own, and may change without prior notice.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Radio Host Fired After Jewish Prote
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 21:42:14 GMT

In article <22045@venera.isi.edu> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens),
while trying to convince us that former Israeli Prime Minister
Yitzhak Shamir was actually a Nazi collaborator, says to Allan Stein:

>[...] -- one can only speculate about what kind of self-hating
>neuroses would cause a Jew like yourself to repeatedly come to the
>defense of someone who voluntarily offered to fight on the side of the
>Nazis.  

If the Israelis allowed a Nazi collaborator to run their country
for years, their political system is even more warped than Syria's
or Iraq's.  Somehow, this doesn't credibly appear to be the case.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com               Pat Paulsen for President
American-Occupied New York                    This year he has a real chance!
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Subject: Re: Radio Host Fired After Jewish Protest
Reply-To: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 23:47:56 GMT


In a previous article, singer@uwovax.uwo.ca () says:

>Arens Junior quotes a newspaper piece by somebody named Michaels which purports
>to quote a Jewish document presented to the Nazis in 1941 in which the
>expression "Israeli liberation movement" (sic) is used. Does anybody know
>whether the term "Israeli" was in use before 1948, and in fact as early as
>1941? Could this be another Protocols of the Elders of Zion?-- 
>
Maybe it's one of the "Protocols of the Juniors of Arens?"
-- 
bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: arf@ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Re: Perot and the Jewish controlled media
Organization: ddsw1.MCS.COM Contributor, Chicago, IL
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 05:40:03 GMT
X-Disclaimer:  Material posted in this article is the sole responsibility of
                the poster and does not represent MCSNet or the system owners.

In article <9207201628.AA00626@panther2.panther.mot.com> Ron.Feigen@panther.mot.com (Ron Feigen) writes:
>In a recent article ARF stated that (he wasn't a consipracy nut, ha ha ha ha,
>just a nut) and the Perot was another Jewish plot via the controlled media ect..
>to have Jews control the US govt.  He claimed that Perot wasn't getting any bad 
>press.  Of course untrue, at the time of the claim the Phoenix papers were
>printing 50/50 good bad about the Texas billionare.  Of course things soon got
>worse, so bad Perot has dropped out of the race.  Please mister ARF tell us
>what happened, did the Jewish controlled media lose control?  Really we want to
>know.  Also please tell me how I, a Jew can control some of this media.  It is
>embarssing to admit but I don't control any and I am feeling rather left out.
>None of my friends will admit to controlling any but I suspect they are just
>being polite.


ARF says:

Unlike Chutzpanazis, I have no problem admitting when I am wrong.  In this case,
I was either wrong or it simply fell apart because they picked a whimp.  Take
you pick.

arf
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: FACTS EVERY ISRAEL BASHER MUST AVOID!
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 01:23:47 GMT

In article <1992Jul20.121554.4811@corax.udac.uu.se> flax@mizar.docs.uu.se writes:

[In discussing the shootings at the Al-Aksa mosque...]

>They were _not_ killed as a 
>result of the israeli jurisdictionary system, though, but rather as the result
>of overly trigger happy border guard. (This is from the information I have at
>hand, if you have any other, I'd appreciate if you'd share it.)

There is a constant armed guard on both sides of the Western Wall, i.e. 
both where Jews and where Moslems worship.  This is a very small force
consisting of very few police or soldiers with light arms.  This location
does not normally attract trouble.

Mayor Kollek, who has been mayor of Jerusalem for an awfully long time,
has been careful to avoid a large police presence in Arab neighborhoods,
for fear of inciting the inhabitants.  He has been attacked for this policy
by Jewish victims of Arab attacks in Arab neighborhoods (or their surviving
families).

Consequently, when the Muslim prayers turned into a rock-throwing riot,
the police in the immediate area were sorely lacking in the ability to 
control it.  When the mob attacked the police themselves, the police 
then shot back, defending themselves now, no longer simply trying to 
control the situation.

"Trigger-happy" is an easy thing to say, until one faces such a situation.
Policemen here in New York City kill attackers and criminals in the heat
of battle all the time but are not found to be "trigger-happy", unless
there is strong evidence that this is the case (which it is, occasionally).
Israeli policemen deserve at least as much.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com               Pat Paulsen for President
American-Occupied New York                    This year he has a real chance!
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: nyh@wpi.WPI.EDU (Nevo Y Hed)
Subject: Re: Zachary Baumel
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 04:15:24 GMT

In article <22028@venera.isi.edu> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
>In article <1992Jul24.021225.23509@wpi.WPI.EDU> nyh@emilio.WPI.EDU (Nevo Y Hed) writes:
>>
>>  Red cross was denied visitation to any of the said captives?
>>  Is their status [dead/alive] kept secret?
>>  If dead - are the bodies kept in a local museum?
>>  AND! when did Israel walk it's captives in a parade?
>>  let us here some [gorey?] details please
>
>The conditions at the Khiam prison in southern Lebanon, where Israel
>places its captives from the area, are notorious.  If you are not aware
>of this place, you should probably take the trouble to find out.  Just
>recently, I beleive, another report concerning the goings on there was
>put out by some humanitarian organization.


Hmm.. nope I never heard of it - you didn't bother answering the
questions above - I am preety sure it is not motel six.

my own impression was based on captives from the Lebanon war who were
brought to Israel [as in the early/mid 85 prisoner x-change].


	-Nevo

-- 
Nevo Y.	 Hed              nyh@wpi.wpi.edu
++1-508-754-2491          CS student, Worcester Polytechnic Institute.
"I like my cigar too, but I take it out of my mouth from time to time" G.Marx
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: idfriedm@hertz.waterloo.edu (id friedman)
Subject: Re: territories vs the territories
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 22:54:35 GMT

In article <1992Jul23.161428.22051@das.harvard.edu> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
>In article <37402@imag.imag.fr> oueichek@ngulu (Ibaa Oueichek) writes:
>>perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
>>: In article <11102@crackers.clearpoint.com> martillo@stars.clearpoint.com (Joachim Martillo) writes:
>
>[Translations deleted for brevity]
>D
>>:In any case the question of wording in French is rather
>>: pointless, since the resolution was debated and drafted in English,
>>: therefore the English text is the official wording by the UN's own
>>: rules.  End of story.
>D
>>  Very good, someone asks for the French version, when i post it and explain
>>its meaning and how it speaks for THE territories, Mr Perlman comes and says
>>"pointless". If i remember well (and i'll verify this one) there is nothing as
>>"drafted in English", the French draft is an *original* one drafted 
>>SIMULTANEOUSLY with the English one, it has the SAME value, La France adopts 
>>an official position based on the French draft, and not on the English one.
>
>No, France chose to vote for the resolution submitted in English, by
>the British.  They may have chosen to vote based on an official
>translation into French, but that is *quite* different from voting on
>their own draft, submitted in French.
>
>The French draft has historical value in that it was an alternate
>point of view.  The fact that the English, ambigious version was
>adopted, instead of the French version (and I don't know French, so I
>won't try to comment on it), was a political decision by the French
>Government. 
>
>>  It's obvious that the US has chosen carefully to put enough ambiguity in the
>>English draft to play with the interpretation later.
>
>Almost exactly.  Except it was a British draft, and it was adopted by
>the UN, unlike the French draft.  So, the US saw to it that 242, as
>adopted by the Security Council, had in it some flexibility which
>could be negotiated by the Israelis and Arabs.
>
>> Your position reflects
>>some disrespect to the France and to the international institutions
>>in general,  because it means that there are "superior" nations that
>>impose their will on others even if those other nations are civilized
>>and welthy. No wonder why the France has left the NATO and why
>>Europeans are doing their best to kick Yankees out of Europe. 
>
>There is no disrespect involved in choosing a language to write
>legalese in.  Your claim that this is an insult to France is an prime
>example of why I complain we defended the ****ers for 40 years.
                                                       ^^^^^^^^^


40 years is an understatement. What about WWI and WWII.  
              
 Remember, the USA also built up the economy after WWII.  





>
>
>Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu
>
>What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
>at all.  How true that is.      


Ishay
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami)
Subject: Re: Arabs are very cheap
Organization: Technion, Israel Inst. of Technology
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 06:33:40 GMT

In article <4564@daily-planet.concordia.ca> ilyess@athena.concordia.ca (Ilyess Bdira) writes:
>In article <1992Jul20.070719.25877@discus.technion.ac.il> davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami) writes:
>
> BUT this will not work in practice because the Arabs are VERY cheap and
> the Jews are very picky in jobs. Whenever there is a temporary Close of
>
>Hopefully not for long... Your statement is a very appreciated justification
>of the Hamas platform.
>
>When Arabs and Arab blood become less cheap, then Israel would not
>feel so arrogant, I can almost assure you that this will happen very soon
>(Maybe in your lifetime if you are less than 40 years old).

To clear things: I meant that Arab Labor is cheap. it is a fact of
life and therefore I included it in my estimation of the probabilty
of workabilty of the solution proposed. 

BTW, it is well known that the wages in Arab countries surrounding
Israel (Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and Jordan) are even lower than the wages
the Gaza strippers are getting. The Arabs in the territories suffer 
economically mainly because they are rebelious and therefore it is
only expected that Israel wouldn't want or be able to develop their
economy.

I think the Hamas platform is a continuation of the traditional Arab 
attitude towards Israel. It is just a more honest and indignant than
the PLO or Syrian views.

My evaluation is an apreciated justification of the Israeli Right 
wing platform if anything. :-)

David.
-- 
=============================================================================
  David Ben-Ami (irc: bigdav)      |   "I can resist anything but Temptation"
  s2780369@Techst02.Technion.Ac.Il |       Oscar Wilde
  davidba@Carmel.Technion.Ac.Il  davidba@Moav.Techniona.Ac.Il
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: U.S. territories vs. Israel territories
From: scott@anasaz (Scott Gibson)
Date: 30 Jul 92 01:52:56 GMT
Reply-To: scott@qip.UUCP (Scott Gibson)
Organization: Anasazi, Inc.  Phoenix, Az

In article <1992Jul29.143532.1796@oakhill.sps.mot.com> diaz@oakhill.sps.mot.com (Rafael Diaz) writes:
>
>  Could somebody explain why is it O.K not to have presidential 
>  voting power in U.S. territories?

Sure.  I'd be glad to.

All that Puerto Rico requires to gain congressional and presidential
voting power, is to petition for statehood.  In other words, the power
to gain the vote is in their hands.  They have _chosen_ not to use
it.

I'm surprised you didn't point out Washington, D.C.  As a federal
district, Washington's citizens are similarly restricted in their
federal voting priveledges.  Why?  Because they aren't a state.


-- 
But you knew your figure cut a cipher/ Through every crafted plan/ And 
playing our game for real/ Saw through our plumbing jobs/ And wayward glands/
To a meaning of your own, in bones."  - Iain M. Banks, "Use of Weapons"
Scott Gibson                   {ames!ncar!noao!asuvax,mcdphx}!anasaz!qip!scott
Disclaimer:  These opinions are my own, and may change without prior notice.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast