From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: alt.pagan survey
Organization: Hewlett-Parkard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 01:36:35 GMT

smayo@wang.com (Scott Mayo) writes:
: I am conducting an informal survey of the folk in alt.pagan. Before I
: fire off the questions, let me explain why I am doing this.
: 
: There are *78 questions* (well, 81) here, mostly yes/no or multiple choice.
: Do NOT post your answers back to this newsgroup! Mail them directly to me. I
: won't release names of respondents - once I collect the answers I will
: delete your mail. You have until 5/10/92 to answer. Please answer the
: survey, even if you are only a casual peruser of the group. What I
: get won't be statistically valid if I don't get a LOT of responses.

For a number of reasons which we will get to in my response, I am posting
this to the group.

: If a question does not apply to you, LEAVE IT BLANK. There are no trick
: questions here, though some are thought-provoking.

Maybe you will give some thought to my responses.

: ----------------------Here are the questions-----------------------------
: 
: 1. A "signal-to-noise" ratio is a slang term for the number of postings
: that come into a group, that *you* find generally useful, as compared to
: irrelevant/silly/misleading posts.

In the first place - I disagree with your definition of "signal-to-noise"
ratio. A posting does not have to be "generally useful" to be considered
signal - it would be useful signal even if only one person found it to be
so.  I also do not agree that irrelevant or silly posts are necessarily
noise. As far as misleading, it depends if it is intentional or not. I have
seen very posts that appeared to be intentionally misleading. If a person
posts something, just because they misunderstand - then that is not noise.
Nor are posts that correct that misunderstanding - even if the person who
is making the correction does not do so in a polite/subtle manner.

:     A. As a percentage (0-100), what do you consider the ratio to be in this
: 	group? 100= every article is worthwhile; 0=nothing here is.

Almost every posting has some worth to someone. So you could say that there
are next to no worthless posts. What might seem worthless to you or me might
be of use to someone else. Yes, even the rabid fundamentalist posts have some
use - even if it is to remind those that are more tolerant that such creatures
still exist.

: 	B. What is the percentage if you discount skeptical or hostile postings
: 	from folk with other religions, or no religion at all?

See above. 

By the way - it appears that you consider paganism or neo-paganism to be
a religion or group of religions. This is not true. (Neo)pagans happen to
practice a number of religions - however, some are atheist or agnostic.

: 	C. What do you suppose others in the group feel the average is?

Who cares? What does it matter? If they think the signal level is too low,
then they will voice this feeling. Others may, or may not, listen to their
complaints. Such is as it should be.

: 	D. Do you think that any and every posting *on neo-pagan topics* has
: 	actual value to you? (discount any amusement value)

Why should I discount amusement value? As to all postings having value to
me - of course not. I would have to be very uninformed if I were to learn
something from every posting that was made. However, there are others that
do not have the same knowledge set that I do that could easily find postings
that mean nothing new to me to be of value to them. The converse is also
true. 

: 2. Someone posts a message to alt.pagan, claiming they can control the
: 	weather by magical means. They have not posted here before, or at
: 	least the name is unfamiliar. Are you *initially* inclined to accept or
: 	reject the news?

I tend to take a scientific view of such claims. If the claim can be 
demonstrated and repeated, then I will believe it - otherwise, I will
reserve judgement until such proof is provided. 

Why should I reject the statement? They could conceivably be correct. I am
not omnipotent, so have no way of knowing.

: 3.	Would you send them mail, asking for details?

Possibly - I never have, yet. I would not rule out the possibility of
that situation changing some time in the future.

: 4. 	Someone posts a message, claiming all religions (or almost all) are
: 	aimed at the same divine figure. Others dissent the view. Which side
: 	would you take, privately?

Neither. Each party is free to hold their own beliefs. How are any of us to
know which might be right, if either of them are? Maybe they both are.

: 5.	Would you post your opinion on the topic of question 4?

Only to the extent of pointing out to the participants that - from the dawn
of history, man has been inventing gods to explain the unexplainable. I will
let them draw their own conclusions from that statement - as you will also
have to do for yourself.

: 6. 	Do you believe that UFOs are explained by extraterrestial visitors?
: 	(not all, just some)

I have never seen a UFO or an ET, nor have I seen conclusive evidence that
either exists. I will withhold judgement until such proof is provided.

: 7. 	Do you believe in magic?

Do you believe that prayer is the practice of magic? It is. Do you believe
that the gestation of an animal is magic? The growth of a plant? The 
production of rain from moisture in the air? 

: 8.	If yes to 7: Do you practice magic (consciously)?

If I wish someone well - or pray for them when they need help - that is
magic.  If I plant a tree to replace one that was cut down - that is also
practicing magic. If I dance naked around a bonfire in the middle of the
night to celebrate the turning of the seasons, that is magic.

: 9.	If yes to 8: do you use ritual, or is it an innate ability that you
: 	can call upon at whim?

Well, since much prayer is ritualistic, then most of use use ritual. 

: 10.	Agree/Disagree: gods are best worshipped in a highly ritualistic
: 	setting. (Consider what is best for the *worshipper*, not the
: 	divine being. You can still answer this if you have no belief in
: 	a divine being).

I neither agree or disagree. That is something that a person has to decide
for themselves. I do not know what is the best or right path to nirvana or
salvation or enlightenment or whatever you might be seeking. My personal
feelings on the subject are irrelevant.

: 11.	Agree/Disagree: you believe in one or more divine beings.

You would have to define the term better. I consider my mother to have
been a divine being. So was one of my ex-girlfriends.

: 12.	Are women holier and/or more capable of magic than men?

Why should either man or woman be more capable? Why should either be
more holy?  For that matter, why should a priest/priestess be more holy
than the lay members of the congregation?

: 13.	Agree/Disagree: The method of worship is relatively unimportant,
: 	as compared to who is worshipped. (Ignore pathological cases, such
: 	as murdering as an act of worship.)

Both are unimportant. If a person feels the need to worship a deity, then
it is up to them to determine the deity they wish to worship and how to
perform this worship.

: 14.	Agree/Disagree: all people are innately good.

No, no more than all people are innately bad. People are born people. There
are many factors that determine how they act. The terms "good" and "bad"
are themselves a problem - what some might consider good would be considered
bad by others. Who is to say which side is right? Maybe both are - at least
as far as it concerns them.

: 15.	Do you believe that only some people can practice ever magic?

Are only some people allowed to pray? Are only select people allowed to
participate in the magic of raising a family?

: 16.	Do you believe the universe is sentient (self-aware)?

No.

: 17.	If yes to 16, does it care about the occupants, specifically
: 	humans?

N/A

: 18-22: answer as for the general case, discounting bizarre exceptions.
: 
: 18.	Can a person be a neo-pagan and a believer in a monotheistic
: 	religion which claims a male gender for its god?

: 19.	Can a person be a neo-pagan and disbelieve in magic?

: 20.	Can a person be a neo-pagan and disbelieve in the divine?
: 
: 21.	Can a person be a neo-pagan and disbelieve in the goodness of man?

The answer to the above four questions in "Certainly".
: 
: 22.	Are satanists, properly speaking, neo-pagans? Why/why not?

I have no idea. Why don't you ask a satanist? What do you mean by the term
"neo-pagan", anyway. The only religion I have the right to define is that
which I personally practice.

: 23.	Some folk view the Newage movement and neo-paganism as more or less
: 	the same thing; others claim a vast difference between the two.
: 	Do you incline to either view? Which? Briefly, why?

There is a vast difference. Newage groups, in my experience, tend to be
Christians attempting to blend a little mysticism into their religion.
They seem to look at the world through rose tinted glasses - in other
words, everything is light and good and just hunky-dory.

This may be perfectly valid for some people, it is not for me. I do not
see the world this way.

: 24.	Do you think Christians hate neo-pagans? 

Many undoubtedly do - there is ample proof. Many do not.  Many just fear
that which they do not know - they may or may not hate also.

: 25.	Do you think Christians hate neo-paganISM?
 
See 24.

: 26.	Do you dislike the Christian religion? 

No, the religion is fine. Just like most other religions, it is many of the
people who practice the religion that are the problem.

: 27.	A neo-pagan you know develops a drinking problem (no, I am NOT
: 	hinting at whatever you think I am hinting at. This is hypothetical.)
: 	He or she goes to a group that helps him overcome his problem, but ini
: 	the process adopts the Christian religion. Do you (choose all that
: 	apply):
: 	a) Not care (or be pleased), if he is happy.
: 	b) Mourn the loss of a good neo-pagan, but maintain contact.
: 	c) Generally avoid her.
: 	d) Try to convince him to abandon the religion.
: 	e) Tolerate her until she tries to convert you; then avoid her.

None of the above. Why should I care what path the person follows, as long
as that person is not harming me by this practice?

: 28.	Do you believe, seriously, in reincarnation? (A yes answer implies
: 	that you believe that many people, possibly including yourself,
: 	have lived past lives or will live future lives after death).

It is hard to hold a firm belief in something that has not been demonstrated.

: 29.	Do you find yourself in sympathy with, or adhering to, Eastern
: 	religions (Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism...)?
: 
: 30.	Do you find yourself in sympathy with, or adhering to, Western
: 	religions (Judiasm, Christianity, Islam...)?
: 
: 31.	Do you find yourself in sympathy with, or practicing, tribal
: 	religions (Amerind, African)?
: 
: 32.	Do you find yourself in sympathy with, or practicing, ancient
: 	religions (Babylonian, very early European)?

There is value in all the above. Why should I be unsympathetic? Why should
I dislike someone, just because they practice a religion that I do not
believe in.

: 33.	Do you find yourself in sympathy with, or practicing, religions	
: 	founded or based on extraterrestial beings?

Tis possible that this is as valid as any other religion. How am I to know.
I have found nothing new or interesting - however, that may not be the case
for other people.

: 34.	Have you ever posted anything to alt.pagan?

Nah - everyone here will tell you that I never post long-winded responses
to postings that are made here.

: 35.	If yes to 34: Do you consider yourself a frequent contributer to
: 	alt.pagan (one or more articles a month)?

I am a frequent poster to at least 50 groups.

: 36.	How long have you been reading alt.pagan?
: 	1) less than 3 months
: 	2) less than 6 months
: 	3) less than 1 year
: 	4) less than 2 years
: 	5) 2 years or more
: 	6) since its inception

5)

: 37. 	optional: How much money do you estimate that you spend, a year, on
: 	neo-pagan literature, devices, or traval to neo-pagan events?

I don't know, define neo-pagan. You do realize that some would consider
Christianity to be neo-pagan?

: 38.	Agree/Disagree: The teachings of Christianity are wrong in substantial
: 	ways.

Let us say that some interpretations of what was written are what I would    
consider to be wrong.

: 39.	Agree/Disagree: The teachings of Confucius are wrong in substantial
: 	ways.

See 38.

: 40.	Agree/Disagree: The teachings of Jesus are wrong in substantial
: 	ways.

See 38.

: 41.	Agree/Disagree: ESP and psychic phenonema are very likely real
: 	(discount obvious quackery and faked evidence)

Who knows, I have received no evidence of such being true. That does not
mean that they do not exist.

: 42.	Astrology has real value in helping you make decisions about 
: 	actions. Do you agree?

No. I do not follow Astrology. If I need insight into something from an
outside source, I will consult a close friend whom I can trust.

: 43.	Do you think peace can be achieved by the year 2000?

I doubt if mankind can ever achieve peace. There will always be those that
will attempt to force their beliefs/ways on others. I believe it to be a
part of the human beast.

: 44.	Do you think peace will be achieved by the year 2000?

No.

: 45.	Do you believe that thought alone can change external realities?

It certainly can chage personal perceptions of external reality. How can
I tell whether it actually changes anything?

: 46.	Do you believe that most or all goddesses worshipped throughout
: 	history are the same being at heart?

Why do you leave out gods? Do you believe that there was only one god
worshipped throughout history?

What does it matter?  Why should a god necessarily be a being?

: 47.	Agree/Disagree: all major world religions, at core, are really
: 	trying to say the same thing (with varying degrees of success).

No, that if obviously false. All you have to do is read the official
dogma to realize this.

: 48.	How long have you held your current religious or non-religous 
: 	views? ('since childhood' is sufficient if approriate; I don't
: 	want to know how old you are.)

About a day or so - it varies depending on the humidity and the time of
year.

: 49.	Have you adopted a religion different than the one you were raised
: 	with? (becoming an agnostic after being raised catholic, or
: 	becoming a quaker after being raised as a strict humanist/scientist,
: 	both count as yes.)

I was raised a human - my parents did not attempt to force me into any
particular mold. I am eternally grateful to them for allowing me this
freedom to experience a multitude of religions.

: 50.	Do you believe that mankind now has a deeper knowledge of spiritual
: 	matters than previous generations did? (ie, is mankind slowly
: 	gaining wisdom in these matters?)

No - I think that most of mankind gives the matter any real thought. Too
many just parrot the party line without really understanding what it means
or why it exits.

I will answer 51 through the end in another posting.

Bill