HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dbl50872@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Daniel Brian Lake)
Subject: Cardinals (Zeile thread)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 01:30:08 GMT

On the Ziele debate...
If Zeile hadn't moved to 3B then Pagnozzi wouldn't have won his golden gloves,
or been on the All-Star team, I'm not saying Pags is the best C in the league
but when he was given the playing time he preformed!  The Cards should have 
traded one of their extra OF for a real 1B instead of that Hill/?  Gee, I can't
D

D
seem to remember his name, I don't remember seeing it in any headlines? They
should have gone after the likes of a younger star-type player, maybe burn the
Cubs for Grace, we probly could have given them Agosto and a player to be named
later for Grace and he would be good for years to come.
It isn't like there offense is really that bad, Lankford was 20/20, Jose, Ozzie
Pena, Gilkey showed his potential, Pags provided plenty of hits, Ziele had a   
bad year, I think it all started because he was playing injured (likely story,
we've heard it a million times) If Magrane can come back and support the young
pitchers and Tewksbury shows 92 wasn't a fluke, we'll find St. Louis on top of 
the division...
-Danl

s
From: poutsmaj@mace.cc.purdue.edu (unknown)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Ricky H World Series H Stolen Bases
Date: 26 Jan 93 22:55:10 GMT
Organization: Purdue University

Could someone please tell me how many bases Ricky Henderson has stolen in
the world series?  My encyclopedia is out of date for this info...

thanks
paul
From: jsd@cscsun2.larc.nasa.gov (John S. Davis II)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Whitaker vs Sandberg
Date: 26 Jan 1993 14:04:12 GMT
Organization: NASA Langley Research Center, Hampton, VA  USA
Distribution: world
Reply-To: jreisel@cscsun1.larc.nasa.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: cscmac2.larc.nasa.gov

Because you're comparing Ryne Sandberg's worst seasons to Lou Whitaker's best
seasons.  If you compare Sandberg's four MVP-caliber seasons ('84, '85, '89, 
and '90) to Whitaker's stats for those years, it's no comparison.  

Sandberg moved to 2B in 1983.  That year, he was the best defensive 2B in the
NL.  Beginning in 1984, Sandberg has been the best 2B in the NL EVERY YEAR 
except 1986, when he was hurt.  He has had four years in which he could 
reasonably have been the MVP; Whitaker has had NO MVP caliber years.  The 
Tigers won two division titles during Whitaker's years, surrounded by players 
like Trammell, Morris, Parrish, and Gibson.  The Cubs won two division titles
during Sandberg's years with Sandberg, Sutcliffe, and little else.  

I think Whitaker HAS been an underrated second baseman.  He has been a solid
player for a long time and is probably one of the 25-best 2B in history or so.
But all serious students of the game conclude that Sandberg is one of the top
ten in history.


Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: tloughin@IASTATE.EDU (Thomas M Loughin)
Subject: Re: AVERAGE/GOOD values...
Reply-To: tloughin@IASTATE.EDU (Thomas M Loughin)
Organization: Iowa State University
Distribution: na
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 19:29:08 GMT

In article <1993Jan22.171345.17434@adobe.com>, snichols@adobe.com (Sherri
Nichols) writes:
> 
> 1991
> 
> AL
> Pos	BA	OBA	SA
> c	.252	.307	.374
> 1b	.264	.344	.417
> 2b	.268	.338	.365
> 3b	.259	.328	.388
> ss	.255	.310	.352
> lf	.261	.331	.398
> cf	.272	.332	.405
> rf	.258	.325	.436
> 
> NL
> c	.243	.305	.352
> 1b	.267	.341	.411
> 2b	.258	.334	.371
> 3b	.264	.324	.408
> ss	.256	.314	.361
> lf	.260	.330	.378
> cf	.260	.330	.378
> rf	.268	.334	.422
> 
This is interesting:

It had always struck me that LF was a place poor fielders were sent, because 
the demands of the job were less than RF (good arm) or CF (speed).  Growing up 
with Greg Luzinski and Lonnie Smith as your team's LF's does little to dispel 
this.  The seeming implication from this is that the LF crowd were a bunch of 
good hitters--better, one would think, than their CF and RF counterparts.  This
impression is supported by James' "defensive spectrum."

That doesn't seem to hold here.  Depending on the innate variability of these 
numbers, it would appear that RF's were the better hitters last year.  Left and
center look pretty much tied, despite the presence of guys like McRae, Cuyler, 
and Lewis.  

I wonder if this is an isolated effect or a real trend?  Does this hold up over
the past few years?  Thoughts, comments, numbers, anyone?

-Tom. 
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: sandoval@stsci.edu
Subject: AVERAGE/GOOD values...
Organization: Space Telescope Science Institute
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 16:55:44 GMT


   Ok, I've been reading the group daily for about 2 months now,
and it's time I asked a question. :)  This one is for all you 
stat guys out there...

   What are the AVERAGE avg/obp/slg values for each position?
That is, what are the values that are adequate?  And, as a
followup, what are the values that are GOOD, or well above
average?  

   I'm sorry to say that I missed the SABR revolution (college,
marriage, etc...), but I'm anxious to learn it all.  That's 
right, I'm willing to LEARN all this STAT sutff. :)  I'm a
physicist by trade, so numbers are intriguing.  And I've 
also been looking over the stats from my 1978 Statis-Pro
boardgame, and I want to re-evaluate the stars of the time.

   Thanks!

     John
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Re: Playoffs
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 20:19:59 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.141651.8631@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> donl@iscp.bellcore.com (Don Locrasto) writes:
>An article in today's (1/21) Newark (NJ) Star Ledger said that
>niether CBS or NBC was interested in another round of playoffs,
>NBC saying that the LCS hasn't "sold out" in about 5 years,
>and that the extra round would be a "cable or local TV thing"
>(or something like that).

Not only that, the "survey" everyone is talking about hasn't even
been finished yet.  They asked 2000 people at random and 8000
season-ticket holders, and haven't even started looking at the
season-ticket holders yet.  As for the former group, youngfolk
preferred the changes (those durned kids), while more "avid" fans
wanted things to stay the way they are.

I suspect once the season-ticket data comes in, MLB will be quite
a bit cooler to the idea.

-- 
ted frank                     | thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu 
standard disclaimers          | void where prohibited
the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: wall@cc.swarthmore.edu (Matthew Wall)
Subject: Re: Gorman's reply
Followup-To: rec.sport.baseball
Organization: Hi, I'm Matt, and I'm...a Boston Red Sox fan
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 20:53:28 GMT

In article <1993Jan19.190119.25113@nntpd.lkg.dec.com>,
g_waugaman@nac.enet.dec.com (Glenn R. Waugaman) wrote:
> Some of the more sarcastic remarks in the reply almost lead me to question
> whether Gorman actually wrote the letter, or at the very least what kind
> of mood he was in when he did.  The stuff about "being in left field" or
> "obviously not a math major" did not sound like Lou, whether it was
> intended to be humorous or not.  Gorman has been known to field abusive
> call after abusive call on radio call-in shows without a nasty or
> facetious word in return, and the one time I ran into him before a game at
> Fenway last year he was the same way with everyone who approached him. 
> Maybe the heat's finally starting to get to him. 
> 

Agreed that Lou generally handles the caustic stuff with grace, which is
why I didn't particularly think the "out in left field" or "not a math
major" cracks were intended other than jocularly. I am guessing Lou's just
not much of a fancy letter writer (who is, these days, outside of the
network, eh?) and these were the best rhetorical devices he could come up
with.

Given that the original letter was polite and that Lou is polite to a fault
in public, I don't think either Lou meant anything by it or is this
evidence some lackey wrote it.

- matt

---------------------------------------------------------
This space left intentionally blank until spring training.
From: demers@cs.ucsd.edu (David DeMers)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Dodgers in '93
Date: 27 Jan 93 16:34:38 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: =CSE Dept., U.C. San Diego

In article <1jv40bINNrqf@mizar.usc.edu> genzuk@mizar.usc.edu (Michael Genzuk) writes:
>With the acquisiton of a number of veteran ballplayers and little help
>acquired for the bullpen (Worrell still having arm soreness).  It
>appears that the Dodgers have not done much to improve their chances
>for climbing from the cellar of the National League West.

>I feel they need to make a few dramatic moves to become competitive
>in the West.  What do you think?  Who should they go after, who should
>they get rid of (including management)?  I would be most interested in
>your comments.

Management seems pretty stupid, but the team might be ok.  They
had tremendous injury problems last year.

OF is Davis, Butler & Strawberry.  Davis might be toast, but
I think Straw can come back.  Unfortunately, he's never been
able to hit in Dodger Stadium...  but a .260/.350/.470 season
with 25+ HRs is likely, and would help the team by maybe 5 games.
Butler is consistently excellent.  Davis might be able to 
play, who knows?

IF is Wallach (yech), Offerman (yech), Reed, and Karros.
Offerman I still like, but he was really terrible last
season both offensively and defensively.  I think he has
better range than he showed, and should be able to hit
a (pretty empty) .270 or so, with an OBP of maybe .350,
which is ok for a SS.  Reed declined a bit offensively, and
with the park differences, won't recover.  I don't know
how his defense is.  Karros can get into the second tier
of 1Bs with a few more walks - he hits for average and power.
(btw, first tier is McGriff & Clark; then Bagwell, Morris,
Kruk, Grace in the next level - sue me if your favorite NL
1B isn't on the list...)

If Sharperson platoons at 3B, they will be better.

Piazza/Hernandez is a good offensive combo at catcher;
neither is Scioscia defensively.

Pitching looks like Ramon, Pedro, Orel, Gross and Candiotti.
Heck of a rotation, actually, with Astacio (the other Pedro)
waiting for Pedro M or Orel or Kevin to flounder.

So, Worrell & McDowell are in  the bullpen, eh?

Looks like a decent team.  If everyone watches Butler in BP
and learns to take a few walks, this could be an excellent
team. But big question marks.

Major weakness: 3B, SS, bullpen, OF depth.


-- 
Dave DeMers			 	        demers@cs.ucsd.edu
Computer Science & Engineering	0114		demers%cs@ucsd.bitnet
UC San Diego					...!ucsd!cs!demers
La Jolla, CA 92093-0114	(619) 534-0688, or -8187, FAX: (619) 534-7029
From: 34EX5PH@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU (Michael S. Matusiewicz)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: How long is thee season
Date: 25 Jan 93 19:08:11 GMT
Article-I.D.: CMUVM.93025.14081234EX5PH
Organization: Central Michigan University

Could anyone please answer me this question for the up and coming season.
What day is it offically open and last day of the season.

thanks michael
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From:  Steve Novak <steven@advtech.uswest.com>
Subject: Wrigley Field .gif available?  ...or other MLB fields?
Originator: steven@jaynes
Reply-To:  Steve Novak <steven@advtech.uswest.com>
Organization: U S WEST Advanced Technologies
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 19:31:55 GMT

I just saw a great shot of Camden Yard that an O's fan friend of
mine has displayed on his computer - a shot from in the stands behind and 
a bit above home plate on its opening day.

Does anyone have a nice shot of Wrigley they could scan?  Or maybe any
of the other Major League fields.  It would be a nice public service
(hint, hint) that I'm sure many of us r.s.b. computer nerds would enjoy.


-- 
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| Steve Novak |    |"Wacker the K"| 
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
steven@advtech.USWest.Com
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Re: Replacement value vs average
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 20:08:37 GMT

In article <C1H2o4.Lty@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> poutsmaj@mace.cc.purdue.edu (unknown) writes:
>In article <C1GuAI.CD1@cerc.wvu.wvnet.edu> hobbs@cs.wvu.wvnet.edu (Gerald R Hobbs) writes:
>>     Whether "it matters" depends on what you use the metric for. If we 
>>compare players in 1992 (say) and decide that AA is +2 and BB -2 compared
>>to average then of course there is no more or less information there
>>than there is in deciding that AA is a 17 and BB is a 13 compared to
>>replacement value. Now when you start talking about career value is does
>>make a difference. A guy who plays beyond the point where his skills are
>>average has negative "points" added to his career totals using the
>>average value metric and positive points added to his career totals 
>>using the replacement value metric (except Pete Rose who played even
>>beyond the point of being at replacement value). Lots of great players
>>play a couple years beyond the point where they are even average. Some
>>like Joe D and Koufax don't. In career value assessments it can make
>>a pretty big difference whether you use replacement or average value
>>adjusted numbers.
>
>But Gerry, the _relative_ difference is the important point.  Whether you
>use replacement level or average level does not matter when comparing 
>players.  If I understood a previous Valentine post, he says replacement
>level would have a winning percentage of .425.  In other words, placement
>of the baseline is arbitrary (please correct my interpretations if they are
>wrong) and there is nothing to say it can't be .425, .500 or even .600.
>The relative differences remain the same...

As Gerry noted, the relative difference does *not* remain the same when
you compare over different time periods -- say, a 21-year career with
a Koufax who left at his peak.  This year, for example, we had some
big debates over whether Cal Eldred, who had only pitcher half a season,
was more valuable than a player who had been around for the full season,
but not quite as spectacular.  In such a case, it makes a big difference
where the baseline is, because the lower the baseline, the greater the
credit given for just hanging around.
-- 
ted frank                     | thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu 
standard disclaimers          | void where prohibited
the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Garvey
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 20:07:12 GMT

In article <1k6b6uINNn5c@transfer.stratus.com> jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com writes:
>I think the other part of it is that Perez was one part of the
>Big Red Machine, and as such didn't stand out as much as Garvey
>did in LA.  

My recollection is that the Dodgers had four players who'd hit 30 HR
a year, and then a sensational pitching staff on top of that, plus
a double-play combination that was around forever.  I don't see Garvey
standing out from that on talent alone.
-- 
ted frank                     | thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu 
standard disclaimers          | void where prohibited
the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: eblom@mari.acc-admin.stolaf.edu (Kate E Eblom)
Subject: Re: Change the game?
Organization: St. Olaf College; Northfield, MN
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 16:25:43 GMT

In article <1k3k7sINNr7l@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bz832@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Wesley R. Kemmerlin) writes:
>
>Greg Ridsdale <greg_ridsdale@ausqml.sps.mot.com> writes:
>
>>I am in favor of either no DH or both leagues using the DH. The
>>current system is awkward for both leagues in the Series and the
>>All star game.
>
>(stuff deleted)
>
>I have a solution to this problem:
>
>The pitcher has to bat, but there can be a DH for another position
>player.
>
This has been discussed from time to time by hot stoves everywhere.  When 
the conversation leaves the "I just hate DH"/"I just love DH" levels  
(the same kind of bunk that indoor/outdoor baseball creates), it settles
on the *total*athlete* syndrome, otherwise known as "9 vs 9".  Forcing
a team to bat the pitcher and have a fielder seems like no solution at all 
if you consider the 9 vs 9.  A pitcher is involved in every play; He gets
the ball to the plate (unless he's David West).  A slick field/ no hit 
shortstop (probably the only player besides a pitcher who can hit less than
me and still draw a check) would be involved in 10 - 15 plays per game.  If
they didn't get a chance to flail at the ball, well that souldn't seem fair
would it?
Treat baseball like the kids game it is...Pitchers get to play with the
ball during the defensive inning more than anyone, including the catcher.
Let someone else get his hacks in.

Woody "don't get me started on indoor/outdoor baseball" Eblom

This Saturday is Hot Stove Banquet Night in St. Paul, MN.
Anyone else from the net going? Squiddie Smith? D. Thornley? 
Send me some email and I'll buy you some peanuts! 
Yea, right.  The peanuts are free.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: 1993 MLB WS odds
From: ajsmith@ualr.edu
Date: 22 Jan 93 15:26:27 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Arkansas at Little Rock

In article <1993Jan21.132431.24404@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu>, marwood@csri.toronto.edu (Simon J. Marwood) writes:
> 
> 
> The following odds chart appeared today in the Toronto Star, and represents
> the odds listed by the Flamingo Hotel sports book in Laughlin, Nev. The
> odds represent the odds to win the 1993 WS:

Scalpel! Scalpel.

> 
> Team		Odds
> ----		----
> 
> Atlanta		3:1
Rightly so the opening's odds on favorite to take it all.
> Toronto		4:1
They were hurt by some dealings in the off season i wouldn't have put them so 
high. maybe down in the 10:1
> Montreal	8:1		[alright!]
> Chisox		8:1
> Cincinnati	8:1
> Milwaukee	10:1
> Baltimore	10:1
> Oakland		10:1
> San Diego	12:1
> NY Mets		12:1
> Minnesota	15:1
> Los Angeles	15:1
15:1???? what did they do get rid of lasorda? :) (ouch)
> St. Louis	18:1
> Chicubs		18:1
> NY Yankees	18:1
With the additions of Boggs, Owen, Abbot, Howe (cringe the damn drugie) I'd 
place the Yankees a little higher
> Houston		20:1
> Pittsburgh	25:1
whatcha doing all the way down here?
> Texas		30:1
> Kansas City	30:1
> San Francisco	35:1
> Cleveland	35:1
> Philadelphia	35:1
> Boston		40:1
> Seattle		50:1
> California	60:1
Rightly so any team who would give up Jim Abbott DESERVES to be down here.
> Detroit		75:1
> Florida		300:1
> Colorado	300:1
I dunno I have this fantasy of seeing Florida and Colorado fighting it out
in the NLCS (hey stranger things have happened!)

> 
> Now a few of these are clearly ridiculous (ie LA!!), but fun nonetheless.
> 
> Simon
> 
> -- 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Simon Marwood		 |		  -- Expos, 1993 -- 
> marwood@csri.toronto.edu | ASIA ALPHA ASTRA AURORA THEN & NOW LIVE MOSKBA AQUA
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -- 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Simon Marwood		 |		  -- Expos, 1993 -- 
> marwood@csri.toronto.edu | ASIA ALPHA ASTRA AURORA THEN & NOW LIVE MOSKBA AQUA
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Of course this is all just my $0.02, and I am by no means an expert

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AJSMITH@ualr.edu * University of Arkansas at Little Rock * running on a VAX ick!
Gehrig, Ruth, DiMaggio, Mantle, Maris, Guidry, Jackson, Mattingly, Yankees !!!!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: jmelchi@sage.cc.purdue.edu (moi)
Subject: Cubbies
Keywords: Prospects?
Organization: Purdue University
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 00:09:50 GMT

      Does anyone have any news and stats on the Cubs best prospects?
 I haven't heard much about Lance Dickson and Turk Wendell except that they
 had surgery last season.  For instance, how did their number 1 pick do this
 past year and not only that, who the hell was it??
From: cc007001@wvnvms.wvnet.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Alex Cole's defense ... a question.
Date: 26 Jan 93 13:50:52 EST
Distribution: na
Organization: West Virginia Network for Educational Telecomputing

I was recently reading an article on rec.sport.baseball.fantasy where
Dave Bonar commented that Alex Cole is not good defensively in center.
I realize that he had a low fielding percentage in 1991 but everything
else that I have seen indicates (to me) that he had good range.

In article <mjones.727547937@fenway>, mjones@fenway.aix.kingston.ibm.com (Mike Jones) writes:
> I'm not sure this is such a good idea. Griffey is a great player
> offensively, but he may be benefitting from the highlight film syndrome
> defensively. I pulled the DA data for AL centerfielders for 1989, 90, and
> 91. Counting league averages, that gave 25 data points. When I sorted them
> by DA, there were a few surprises...

I assume these numbers are for regular centerfielders.  I took the liberty
of removing the 89 and 90 numbers.

> Rank Year   Player          DA 
>   1  1991 Johnson, Lance   .639
>   2  1991 White, Devon     .629   Looks like Devo's rep is deserved.
>   3  1991 Pettis, Gary     .601
>   4  1991 Cuyler, Milt     .594
>   5  1991 Cole, Alex       .593   Here's a surprise!
>      ...
>  ??  1991 League           .573
>      ...
>  ??  1991 Griffey Jr., Ken .547
>      ...
>  ??  1991 Puckett, Kirby   .515

From defensive averages, Cole was the 5th best centerfielder.  Remember
that this includes his errors as balls hit into his zone that were not
converted into outs.

From the range factors printed in the STATS 1992 Major League Handbook
Cole was 7th out of 25 regular centerfielders with a 2.82 rating.  Average
was 2.69.

So is Cole's reputation based on his errors alone?

Doug Saunders
Commissioner Internet Baseball League (PTP)
Owner, Northern West Virginia Phantoms
From: sfh@po.CWRU.Edu (Steven F. Hubbard)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Eric Plunk Questions
Date: 21 Jan 1993 15:31:38 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: sfh@po.CWRU.Edu (Steven F. Hubbard)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) says:

>In article <1jkp67INNjrm@grapevine.EBay.Sun.COM> kamikaze@wargamer.EBay.Sun.COM writes:
>>
>>Three questions about Eric...
>>
>>	1) What did he sign for & for how many years?
>
>I'm not sure.

   Yes.  He's signed for one year.

>
>>	2) How did he 'really' look last year, and
>
>Decent.  A lot better than in 1991.  His wildness is still a bit of a
>problem, but he has his hits (and HRs) under control.  He has good
>stuff, and can probably be effective for a few more years.
>
>>	3) Where does he fit into the rotation/bullpen in `93?
>
>Not a closer, for sure.  They seem to be happy with Olin.  I doubt
>they'll put him in the rotation.  His style is better suited to
>relief.  Which leaves him in a set-up and middle relief role.

  The Tribe used him as a closer for a week or so.  He wasn't very good at it.
He was best at the middle relief role.  Lilliquist and Power were great in 
setup, and Olin was fine as the closer.  The Indians bullpen will look the same
as it did last year -- though I'll be pleasantly surprised if it does as well.

SfH
-- 
Steven F. Hubbard                ** "If people don't want to come to the 
Case Western Reserve University  **     ballpark, how are you gonna stop them? 
Department of Physics            **  
Cleveland, OH 44106              **                         -- Yogi
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball