From: btiffany@pbs.org
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Very Old question for Rob Levene
Date: 2 Oct 92 12:47:14 GMT
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA

From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Subject: Very Old question for Rob Levene
Date: 30 Sep 1992 21:52:50 -0500

>Bruce Tiffany:
> 
>> It seems to me the analogy is alike if one accepts your assertion that
>> acceptance of Yeshua is tantamount to rejecting Judaism (!), since accepting
>> Roe v. Wade is tantamount to accepting abortion.
> 
>Well?  Is it intellectually honest to call such a person
>"pro-life" or not?  Please answer.

Is it honest to call a Messianic Jew a Rabbinic Jew?

Next question:  Who cares?  Nobody's claiming that MJ's adhere to Rabbinism,
which essentially is the rejection of Yeshua in favor of a sort of
mystical humanistic system of works righteousness which runs contrary to
the Spirit of Torah.

>>  So if accepting Yeshua is
>> to Judaism what accepting abortion is to being pro-life, then just as
>> rejection of abortion characterizes the pro-life movement ...
>> so rejection of Yeshua characterizes Rabbinic Judaism.
> 
>However, rejection of Roe v. Wade does *not* characterize
>the pro-life movement; any abortion bill would meet their opposition.
>Opposition to RvW is an effect of their fundamental
>opposition to abortion.  Similarly, rejection of Jesus is an
>effect of Jewish principles, as is rejection of Marx and Muhammad.

1) Rejection of Roe v. Wade *does* characterize the pro-life movement.

2) Rejection of Yeshua is the effect of Rabbinic principles which were
designed to produce that effect.

But you are being dishonest when you say it is an effect of *Jewish*
principles.

>RL>  They [pro-lifers] oppose other abortion bills as well, it's
>RL> just that Roe v. Wade is the best known, just as Jesus was one of the
>RL> best known false messiahs (with regard to Judaism).  Furthermore,
>RL> opposition to pro-abortion bills is an *effect* of beliefs such as "life
>RL> beings at conception so abortion is murder" and "murder is morally
>RL> wrong."
> 
>> It's not merely rejection of Yeshua, it's rejection of those Jews who accept
>> Him.  If what you're saying were true, then you would accept Jews who accept
>> Yeshua just as you accept Jews who accept Schneerson, who quite obviously
>> is no Messiah at all (nor ever will be).  It's not as if Rabbinic Judaism
>> rejects false Messiahs, and Yeshua happens to be one of those.
> 
>No comparison.  Jesus is dead, having failed to bring about the
>messianic redemption.  Rabbi Schneerson is alive, and still can
>accomplish what the messiah has to do.

Yeshua is alive.  I and many others know Him personally.  And He will return,
according to the Bible.  Schneerson won't be alive much longer.  Pretty soon
you guys are going to have to quit hollering about how Yeshua isn't the
Messiah of Israel and produce your own.

>Use of the term Judaism to denote what I believe is more accurate,
>since placing Christianity within "Judaism" makes the
>term "Judaism" meaningless.

Only if Judaism is characterized by rejection of Yeshua would it take away
the meaning of Judaism.  This is true for Rabbinic Judaism, not
Biblical Judaism.

>> In the same way, accepting Yeshua means rejecting many of the tenets of
>> Rabbinism regarding the Messiah, which were developed in opposition to
>> Messianic Judaism long ago.
> 
>I'm beginning to think that "Messianic Judaism[sic]" is characterized
>by a belief that Judaism is characterized by rejection of Jesus, since
>you continually assert it without proof.

Others have offered ample proof in this forum.

>> Of course, you're trying to cast the whole analogy as if it were "tenets
>> of Judaism" vs. "tenets of Christianity".
> 
>It is.

Isn't.

>How would you react to the following statement: "The only good
>Jew is a Christian Jew."  That's the impression I get from here.

I'd say you're starting to sound like Tom Albrecht, and I'd disagree.

>>RL>So I ask,
>>RL>  Can a person fully support Roe v. Wade and call himself officially
>>RL>  "pro-life?"  If so, why?  If not, why not?
>>
>> Trick question.  My reply is that RABBINIC JUDAISM IS NOT BIBLICAL JUDAISM,
>> so we don't care what the rabbinic tradition -- which post-dates Biblical /
>> Messianic Judaism -- says about Messiah Yeshua.
> 
>Please don't avoid my question by shouting your faith tenets.  An
>answer would suffice.  At least explain why you consider it a
>trick.

Because you're trying to frame the debate as if it were a case of
[tenets of] Christianity vs. [tenets of] Judaism, and all your analogies
are based on that.  But that is incorrect, and I do not accept your
initial assumption which you think makes your analogy valid.  This is not
a question of Christianity vs. Judaism and drawing a line of distinction,
but strictly a Jewish question of whether Yeshua is the Messiah.  The
temporarily dominant Rabbinic sect denies that He is [while claiming to
speak for all of Judaism, as the feminists claim to speak for all women;
admittedly feminists are the minority, and RJ's are still the majority
among Jews], whereas Messianic Jews know better.

>> Rabbinic Judaism (which you incorrectly insist is defacto Judaism) is
>> characterized by rejection of Yeshua as Messiah.  This is not merely
>> *a* characteristic, it is an overriding characteristic, as evidenced
>> by the fact that any Jew who accepts Yeshua is rejected by the
>> Rabbinic Jewish community, because the RJ's reject Yeshua.  This
>> rejection is characteristic of Rabbinic Judaism.
> 
>To prove your assertion, you would have to demonstrate that
>rejection of Jesus is unique.  The reality is that Judaism
>rejects all the other religions, too.

Again your falacious assumption that acceptance of Yeshua automatically
makes one a practitioner of a "different religion" -- the auto-rejection
Harvey was talking about.  But you are wrong, and no such "proof" is
required.  We're talking about RJ's rejecting the *Jewish* Messiah,
Yeshua.  Yeshua is not Southern Baptist.

>> You can talk all you want about analogies and false messiahs, but the
>> proof is in the actions.  Actions speak louder than words.  If
>> Rabbinism is not characterized by rejection of Yeshua, then I expect
>> you to welcome all Messianic Jews into your synagogue and renounce the
>> curse against Yeshua and all His talmidim.  If you will not do this,
>> then don't go telling me Rabbinic Judaism is not characterized by
>> rejection not only of Yeshua but of all those who belong to Him.
> 
> 
>I meant "Judaism is *not* *characterized* by rejection of Jesus."
> 
>You misread it is "Judaism is not characterized by *rejection* of Jesus."

Either way is true.

"New Testament stands in the stream of prophetic fulfillment; Mishna/Talmud
stand in the stream of human tradition." -- Mike Brown

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
		Surely our griefs He Himself bore, and our sorrows He carried;
     /\		... He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was
____/__\____	crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being
\  / || \  /	fell upon Him, and by His scourging we are healed.  All of us
 \/--++--\/	like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own
 /\  ||  /\	way; but the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on
/  \ || /  \	Him. ... By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will
----\--/----	justify the many, as He will bear their iniquities.
     \/							-- Isaiah 53
		Bruce Tiffany