From: schoinas@fox.cs.wisc.edu (Yannis Schoinas)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: How Turks view Democracy
Date: 1 Oct 92 18:17:04 GMT
Organization: U of Wisconsin Madison - Computer Sciences

hilmi-er@vall (Hilmi Eren) writes:

>Yannis Schoinas (schoinas@fox.cs.wisc.edu) wrote:
>: hilmi-er@vall (Hilmi Eren) writes:

>: >    + 2) The Turks are not being recognized as Turks. The Greek Government
>: >         calls  the muslims for Greek-muslims. Evidence?: In northern
>            Greece there is a people
>: >         called "pomacs". These people are said to be Greeks taken the 
>: >         religion of Islam. When you ask themselves they all say "we are
>: >         Turks"! This is one view of Greek Democracy- buy the way there is
>: >         just one taxi in this village-owned by a Greek. To get a driving-
>: >         license for a tractor for a Turk is much more diffucult than
>: >         studying in Oxford Universty- why - just to make these people
>: >         move out of Greece  leaving their lands.
>: 
>: 	  The muslims of western Thrace were defined as such in the Lausagne
>: 	  treaty signed by Greece and Turkey. They consinst of Pomaks, Turks
>: 	  and Gypsies. If all of them want now to be Turks, I don't have any 
>: 	  problem with that. But you must realize that the greek government
>: 	  is perfectly entitled(i.e., legally entitled) to refer to them as
>: 	  muslims as long as it refers to the whole muslim population of 
>: 	  western Thrace.
>: 	  
>         + Is this your "democracy"? Now i understand the "Macedonian-problem"
>         + in Greece- the Greek Government have the "legaly entitled" right
>         + to call Macedonians for "Greek-Macedonians" just as they call
>         + Turks for muslims in todays Greece!

	  I am sorry to dissappoint you but you are confusing things. 
	  I would say that it would not right if the greek government
	  treated all the muslims of western Thrace as Turks just because
	  they are muslims. Of course, it serves the government's policy
	  to do so but even if the opposite was true I would like to treat
	  differently. After all, this political alliance of the muslims
	  might be shortlived and I wouldn't like to result to the 
	  loss of the heritage of any of the three groups.

>: >    + 3) The Macedonians further North are aware of the Greek "Democracy".
>: >         Because the Greek Government and some Greeks calls these people
>: >         Greeks just they call the "pomacs" in Northern Greece for Greeks.
>: 
>: 	  I could get into the discussion on the definition of what the
>: 	  word Greek means but I will refrain from doing so. BTW, what 
>: 	  language do the Oflis speak?
>         
>         + Why don't you? Explain to millions of Macedonians why they are
>         + Greeks and not Macedonians. Language of Oflis? Maybe Chinese
>         + who knows?

	  Chk, Chk... Where are you from Hilmi? It's interesting to catch 
	  someone ignorant of his own country. You are from Turkey, aren't
	  you?
	  
	  I will include a quote from an article by Anthony Bryer that I have 
	  in a collection of some of his articles in a book with the title 
	  "Peoples and settlement in Anatolia and the Caucasus".

	  "The Oflis are among the curiosities of Lazistan. They were Greeks,
	  or at least Greek speaking, who were converted to Islam supposedly
	  with their apostate bishop Alexander, when he became Iskender, Pash
	  of Trebizond. By one account this occurred in about 1740; by another
	  it was this Bishop Alexanderwho built the Iskender-pasha Djamii in 
	  Trebizond in about 1512. Mr. Michael Meeker tells me that the current
	  Ofli explanation is that the Byzantine Emperor sent two Ofli Christian
	  priests to investigate the new muslim faith; they were converted 
	  instead, setteled outside the Empire and that centuries later threir
	  descentants evangelised the Ofli valley for Islam. These tales seem
	  to be a rationalisations of the paradox that the Oflis combine a
	  fanatical devotion to Islam with a retention of the Pontic Greek
	  dialect. 
	  ...
	  The Oflis were "grands voleurs" and "pirates hardis". In 1835 Brant
	  found that the Oflis have peculiar customs distinct from those of
	  the Laz. He reckoned they could muster 24000 men under arms while
	  the Laz only 18000. "The Oflis in many of their habits must resemble
	  the inhabitats of Maina(Mani), carrying on blood feuds from father 
	  to son". In 1879 I. Parcharides estimated that out of 10000-12000
	  Ofli families 8000-10000 spoke Greek but only 192 were Christian.
          ...
          As Muslims were not included in the exchange of populations in
	  1922-23. Today they still have a reputation for producing ultra-
	  conservative hodjdjas, while the villages of the Chaykara district
	  are still Greek-speaking".

	  So, according to your definitions what are these people? 
	  Greek, Turks or what? Anyway, I believe you will understand 
	  how can there be slavophone Greeks, if you ask an Ofli what 
	  he feels he is.

	  BTW, since we are talking about the treatment of minorities
	  does the turkish governement provide education in pontic
	  Greek for these people?


>: >         Everybody except some Greeks know that these tactics are used
>: >         , by the Greek Governmnet, to make the Greeks awarness of the
>: >          economic situation in Greece equal to zero.
>: 
>: 	  Not true. I think that the government was trapped in this issue
>: 	  due to the public sendiment. This issue has probably cost more 
>: 	  to the government than if any probable gain of shifting the
>: 	  attention from economy.
>:        
>         + Cost more? What? A journey (gas) to USA to convince the Americans
>         + of the Macedonian issue? 

	  No, political cost. The reaction of the government was not perhaps
	  as quick and effective as many people in Greece would like.

						 Bye,
						Yannis.

ps: I have got the impression that you are really confused about the
Macedonian matter. To which 'millions of Macedonians should it be 
explained that they are Greeks and not Macedonians'? If you are talking 
about the people of x-yugoslavian republic, the Greeks argue that they
are not Greeks and hence not Macedonian which are/have been Greeks. If 
you are talking about the people living in the greek province of Macedonia,
then they certainly are Greeks and certainly are Macedonians. Hell, 
I was born and grew up in Thessaloniki.