From: mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu (Robert McGrath)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Purported Pleisiosaur
Date: 31 Aug 92 02:32:40 GMT
Reply-To: mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science

In article <LEET.92Aug28124125@dove.ims.com>, leet@ims.com (Lee Thomas) writes:
|> Plesiosaur ping-pong:
|> 
|> article said the evidence which would prove that this was a plesiosaur
|> never materialized.  It also showed how a basking shark could decay
|> into a plesiosaur-like carcass.  It did NOT explain the fact that
|> basking sharks have only two large lower fins, while this carcass
|> clearly had four (based on the sketch).  There was no evidence that a
|> dorsal fin had ever been present, based on the second photograph of
|> the carcass, which clearly showed tissue surrounding vertebrae of the
|> animal's upper back.
|> 
|> My pastor corresponded with the ship's Japanese biologist last year,
|> which is how I saw the photos and the sketch.  My pastor also got
|> copies of several papers - in Japanese, alas.  The biologist is
|> astonished that Americans would believe he could mistake a shark for a
|> prehistoric animal (and he is not even a Christian, much less a
|> scientific creationist), and that his country's National Science
|> Museum and the committee of marine biologists who examined the
|> evidence would all be so credulous as well.

I don't see what christianity or creationism have to do with the
publicity value of catching a living or recently deceased DINOSAUR
for crying out loud--if true it is the scoop of the century, and
every Japanese trawler captain is well aware of that fact.

Is this the same Japan that I am thinking about?  The one with a
40 year history of godzilla movies?  The photography capital of the 
world?  A place that still has an emperor directly descended from the
sun goddess, for crying out loud?  Are you suggesting that 
1) ship captains are incapable of creating doctored photographs
and drawings, 2) that the most concentrated and fad-ridden media
market in the world wouldn't eat it up, and 3) that you couldn't find
plenty of "scientists" who wouldn't play up to the publicity?

I'm not saying that the carcass is not a plesiosaur, I'm simply
indicating that the idea that the reports couldn't be a hoax is
based on a rather naive view of Japanese life.

I would also note that your conclusions based on the appearance of 
a rotting corpse indicates that you have not delved very deeply into
the difficulties of identifying dead stuff that comes out of the sea.
The bodies of even well known animals can be very difficult to identify
when hauled out of the water, and are frequently misidentified.
To claim that you can tell that a rotting corpse is actually a
specimen of a species that you have never seen alive or dead is a
pretty good leap.  I would advise caution.

I'm not sure why this topic came up in the vicinity of creationism,
as the persistence of a plesiosaur would be fully consistent with
evolution and an ancient earth, and generally considered possible
by marine biologists.  It would be a spectacular find, but it would 
not require the revision of any biology I know of except for the 
estimate that the P's are extinct.  Considering that P's aren't 
even part of the bible, I can't see how their existence in 
the past or today is anything other then a blow to biblical 
literalism.

-- 
  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic