HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss)
Subject: Re: politics
Organization: NCR E&M Columbia SC.
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 92 14:03:40 GMT

In article <1992Aug25.202604.25838@midway.uchicago.edu> rivk@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>In article <1992Aug23.200751.14229@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM> nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss) writes:
>
>>This is the last paragraph I am going to respond to Nora. I am not ready to
>>flame with a female. Why don't you leave the flaming between me and Jonathan
>>Horen. I guess we got accustomed to each other. 
>
>I'm not sure whether you're demonstrating a level of sexism I've
>heard Arabs accused of and preferred to consider a stereotype or
>whether you're making deliberate use of the stereotype in order
>to find a way to run from a fight, or both. It doesn't matter.
>With that statement you've done your own reputation and that of
>your people more harm than I could ever have done them by arguing
>with you. Thank you, Nabil; you've helped my cause considerably.
>
>>Nabil Idriss     
>
>	-Nora
>

No, I am not demonstrating any level of sexism. I am debating the issue
with a lot of jewish guys through email and through tpm. If you go back
and read your previous two articles that you directed to me, you will 
find out that they were designed to make me feel bad and flame and they 
were not purely written for honest debate. I would have helped your cause
if I refused to debate with any body on tpm on this subject. I think you
harmed your cause by threatning to use nuclear weapons more than any 
one else.


>
>-- 
>"Light one candle for those who are suffering pain we learned so long ago..."
>


-- 
Nabil Idriss                           |       FOR EVERY ACTION AN OPPOSITE  
NCR - Midrange Products Division       |       AND EQUAL REACTION.
      Columbia, South Carolina         |      
email: nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM |
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Subject: Japanese discuss Iran-U.S. relations in Tehran
Keywords: Iran, Japan, USA
Reply-To: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Organization: North Carolina State University
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 19:00:32 GMT


Reposted from soc.culture.iranian (Thanks to Amir Taghavi):
 
> 	ATHENS, Greece (UPI) -- A Japanese delegation in Tehran discussed the
> normalization of Iran's relations with the United States in a meeting
> with Iranian Foreign Minister Ali Akbar Velayati, Tehran radio said.
> 	The Japanese group, in the Iranian capital as a ``study and economic
> delegation,'' raised the subject of the normalization of Iran-U.S.
> relations and several other subjects in the meeting with Velayati
> Sunday.
> 	A Tehran radio dispatch monitored in Athens said Velayati referred to
> Iranian assets and goods still held in the United States, but did not
> say if Iran was prepared to normalize relations with Washington if its
> assets were released.
> 	President Jimmy Carter froze Iranian financial assets in U.S. banks
> in 1979 after Islamic radicals in Tehran seized the U.S. Embassy and
> held a large group of Americans hostage for more than a year.
> 	Carter also froze deliveries of arms and military spare parts paid
> for by Iran but not yet in the pipeline.
> 	Velayati told the Japanese delegation: ``At present there is no
> reason for Iranian assets to be withheld.''
> 	The report came less than one week after the Philadelphia-based Sun
> Oil Co. said it had settled all disputes with Iran over the seizure of
> its assets in Lavan Island after the 1979 revolution, and that Tehran
> has agreed to pay it $180.5 million.
> 	Japan is one of several countries that has mediated between Iran and
> the United States in what were seen as behind-the-scenes moves to
> normalize relations between the two countries.
> 	Relations were expected to improve after the pro-Iranian Shiite
> radicals in Lebanon released U.S. hostages they were holding, but
> strongly anti-American speeches since then by several leading Iranian
> clerics have apparently cooled any warming trend.
> 	There are no recent signs that such anti-U.S. clerics as spiritual
> leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei and Hojatoleslam Ahmed Khomeini have
> changed their views.
> 	Tehran radio said the Japanese delegation also discussed with
> Velayati conditions among the pro-Iranian Shi'ites in southern Iraq,
> attacked several times since March 1991 by troops loyal to President
> Saddam Hussein.
> 	Velayati said Iran wants Iraq's territorial integrity to remain
> intact and did not agree with views expressed in some international
> circles, and among some Persian Gulf states, favoring a breakup of Iraq
> into Kurdish, Sunni and Shi'ite regions.
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: When Anisa answers...
Date: 1 Sep 92 03:49:16 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <Btr6qy.EqG.2@cs.cmu.edu> anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) writes:
>Lest I be accused of Mutlu-osis, I am going to stop responding unless
>Anisa responds to the specific facts I have laid down regarding foreign
>aid(*) and answers this question: Why, given the history of financial and moral
>support for her people, the majority of them turned and supported 
>a vicious dictator in pillaging, raping and murdering the Kuwiati nation?
>Is this support somehow Islamic?

Calm down, Anwar.  Calm down.

I haven't responded to your postings because I did not see them until
now.

I want to respond to them but I don't have time right now.  Can it wait
until tomorrow?  But I just want to tell you this:

	I appreciate your feelings and I want to extend my most
sincere apology to you for not being sensitive or respecting
your position.

	Can we just stop for a second to think, reflect, and pursue a
friendlier, more considerate approach to this problem.  I am
certain that it will be more beneficial to everyone concerned
and we can reach a position of mutual understanding and respect.

I will respond - just be patient.

Anisa

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Subject: Re: Lehi and nazies
Organization: Australian National University
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 23:06:38 GMT

dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:

>Hallam@zeus02.desy.de writes:
>#
>#Only an appologist for Sterns terrorist actions could describe his death as
>#"murder". 

>Well, the guy was captured, surrendered, and then was shot in cold blood,
>wasn't he? 

Yes he was.  Officially he was "shot while trying to escape" but in 
fact the "escape attempt" involved one British cop pushing him towards
the window while another shot him.  All this was confirmed many years
later by another British cop who was present at the time.  Of course,
one can always make up a conspiracy story to explain why the informer
might have lied, but on balance I see no good reason to disbelieve him.

>-Danny Keren.

Brendan.
From: backon@vms.huji.ac.il
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: zuma.UUCP ???
Date: 3 Sep 92 00:33:53 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Hebrew University of Jerusalem

Sigh !

I actually took the trouble to check if zuma.uucp is, in fact, on the maps.
I checked the UUMAP database via a WAIS server and got zilch. NOTHING !
I had no idea one could forge a posting from a nonexistant UUCP site :-) :-)

Score another one for MUTLU.

Josh
backon@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL
From: rothberg@bimacs.BITNET (Danny Rothenberg)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Peace talks
Date: 26 Aug 92 09:51:30 GMT
Distribution: talk.politics.mideast soc.culture.jewish
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

Is it my imagination, or is the PLO (with whom Israel is not supposed
to be negotiating) trying to throw a spanner ('wrench' for all you
American ignorami who do not speak the Queen's English (-; ) in the
works by placing the issue of Jerusalem on the agenda at the
beginning.  They know, as well as anybody else, that so far as the
Israeli delegation, government, and people are concerned, Jerusalem,
leaving aside hr environs, is not for sale and that surely such a
thorny issue should be left until last as thorny issues like this tend
to work themselves out in the end, especially if there has been
good will generated already.

Personally I am all for peace, and am not trying to put forward my
personal political view here, but if the Palestinian side is really
for peace, why do they keep shooting themselves in the foot,
especially as they have nothing to lose.  And everything to gain.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Danny Rothenberg             |    ^     "The whole wide world is a very narrow
Bitnet:                      | \-/-\-/    bridge, but the main thing is not to
rothberg@bimacs              |  X   X     be afraid"
Internet:                    | /-\-/-\
rothberg@imacs.cs.biu.ac.il  |    V             -Rabbi Nachman of Bratzlav
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Danny Rothenberg             |    ^     "The whole wide world is a very narrow
Bitnet:                      | \-/-\-/    bridge, but the main thing is not to
rothberg@bimacs              |  X   X     be afraid"
Internet:                    | /-\-/-\
rothberg@imacs.cs.biu.ac.il  |    V             -Rabbi Nachman of Bratzlav
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.misc,misc.headlines,soc.rights.human
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Israel and Kuwait in the Spotlight
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 92 20:55:11 GMT

In article <BtnAz1.GCo.2@cs.cmu.edu> anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) writes:

>Furthermore, I would point out that Kuwait
>is one of the most liberal countries in the Arab world with respect to 
>women's rights, the right to vote being practically the only thing really
>missing.   I am hopeful that these rights will be granted (as well as voting
>rights for those Kuwaitis who cannot currently vote).  
>
>Again, this is a first step, and a damn sight more than you'll find in 
>_most_ other Arab countries.

Israel is in a similar position to Kuwait, in this respect.  Israel
offers Arabs more freedoms than they can have virtually anywhere else
in the Middle East.  However, because it is so much in current events
and in the media spotlight, even relatively minor problems are posed
as monumental while very much more egregious problems nearby are
entirely ignored.  Other gulf states are not very different from
Kuwait but no one ever hears about them.  (Ask anyone in the street to 
list the names of 4 gulf states; they probably won't manage it.  Ask
them whose land Israel has "stolen" and they'll all tell you.)

>Well, hopefully she'll be back with some facts next time.

Don't get your hopes up too high.  The public loves a good story and
the media is committed to delivering it.  Facts rarely get in the way. 

I had been hopeful that Kuwait and Saudi Arabia would have recognized
that they don't actually have major quarrels with Israel and would
have done the right thing by moving forward with recognition and
relations.  I am still hopeful of this, though the weak progress
between these parties in the past 2 years has been disappointing.


-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com               Pat Paulsen for President
American-Occupied New York                    This year he has a real chance!
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed)
Subject: Re: CLINTON SPEECH TEXT: RABIN MEETING
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 14:11:38 GMT

In article <25240@castle.ed.ac.uk> egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson) writes:
>In article <BtMH14.FMo.2@cs.cmu.edu> anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) writes:
>=>
>=>Yes, when their "brothers and sisters" who they have supported morally and
>=>financially for decades respond to their calls for help with jeers against
>=>them and cheers for the man who is brutally raping, pillaging, and massacring
>=>the state of Kuwait and its people.  Yes, when they are coldly betrayed by the 
>=>people they helped the most.  Yes, when they have spent billions more on poverty 
>=>and development in the Arab and Muslim world (as I and others have documented 
>=>extensively here and as they are currently doing in Somalia and 
>=>Bosnia-Hercegovina) and morons like you insist on repeating complete distortions 
>=>and lies about their record.
>=>
>=>With friends like this, !YES!, Kuwait sought outside help.
>
>Your arguments would sound a lot more convincing if there was any indication
>that the people deported were those people who had been shown, after due
>process of law in a fair court, to have collaborated with the Iraqis. As
>we all know, this was far from being the case.

This is a complete non sequitur.  It has absolutely nothing to do with
the actions of Palestiniand and Kuwait before and during the war, the 
topic of this discussion.

Besides, the non-renewal of Work Visas in Kuwait BARELY compares with the
digusting betrayal of Kuwait.  Kuwait was not just left to be destroyed, 
but those people who benefitted for Kuwaiti largess actually *cheered*
on the rape, pillage, torture and murder of the Kuwaiti nation.  When 
will someone address this issue?  Why is everyone so afraid to acknowledge
that they cheered on a murderer?  Hmm...maybe this question answers 
itself.  

Was the French resistance condemned when it took action after 
liberation against accused traitors without anything resembling 
fair trials or due process?  NO.

Finally, I find it ironic that the likes of you, who probably used 
Kuwait's large foreign population as a point against it before and 
during the war, condemn it when action is taken to decrease these 
populations.


>
>
>
>-- 
>==================================================================
>-Jeremy Henderson            |  Une souris verte
> egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk	     |  Qui courrait dans l'herbe
>==================================================================


-- 
Anwar Mohammed                           Graduate Student
anwar+@cs.cmu.edu  (NeXTmail welcome)    School of Computer Science
Voice: +1 412 268 3043                   Carnegie-Mellon University
Fax:   +1 412 681 5739                   Pittsburgh, PA  15213-3890
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: adam@sparkle.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Fair Swap
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 00:54:30 GMT

In article <3680@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh) writes:
>In article <1992Aug31.223346.1689@panther.mot.com> ronf@panther3.panther.mot.com (Ron Feigen) writes:
>>
>>Not to mention Jewish religious sites that were not significant to Muslims also
>>being destroyed.
>
>And these are / were ... ?

1. More than 20 Synagogues were demolished by the Jordanian Army
between 1948 and 1950.

2. Parts of the mount of olives cemetary were dug up to build a road
to the Intercontinental Hotel, also built on torn up graves.  The
gravestones were used to line latrines in Army camps.

3. The Western Wall of the temple was made into a minor alley, with
animals stabled nearby.

Need a more comprehensive list?




Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all.  How true that is.      
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami)
Subject: Re: CLINTON SPEECH TEXT: RABIN MEETING
Organization: Technion, Israel Inst. of Technology
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 08:06:02 GMT

In article <1992Aug29.150934.11390@midway.uchicago.edu> rivk@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>
>Israel actually cares about what any of us choose to yell at each other
>over the net. Right. More paranoia. Israel didn't plan your stupidity,
>Mr. Elghani, although they may try to capitalize on that of others like
>you; and Israel could not care less whether you and Mr. Mohammed argue
>with each other. I'm probably the pro-Israeli Kuwait sympathizer you're
>referring to, and I'd prefer you *weren't* arguing with each other, be-
>cause I think you're being obnoxious to someone who doesn't deserve it
>and I'd rather it stopped. I didn't start out particularly sympathetic
>to Kuwait, but the combination of its behavior during and just after the
>war wrt Israel's decision to hold its fire in the interest of achieving
>common goals, which was the most honorable behavior I've seen out of any
>Arab country except Egypt, and Mr. Mohammed's articles, have made me
>rather like the place. That, and keeping you from attacking someone I
>respect independently of his country for his willingness to discuss
>things reasonably, are my only interests in the question.

I fail to see Kuwait's the honorabilty in Kuwait's behavior towards 
Israel in teh Gulf war. did you actualy expect them to bithe the hand 
that helped them get back to their throne??

Kuwait did the minimum of not blatantly cursing Israel mainly for the
sake of American ears. Maybe in their hearts they finally understood 
what we Israelis are facing all these years (financed by their oil)
their change of attitude towads Israel is not to be hailed as nobility
- if they were unilateray stop all hostility against Israel and ready 
to sign a peace treaty with us - that would be noble & honorable.

sidestepping towards the talks with American prodding is not. 

David.
-- 
=============================================================================
  David Ben-Ami (irc: bigdav)      |   "I can resist anything but Temptation"
  s2780369@Techst02.Technion.Ac.Il |       Oscar Wilde
  davidba@Carmel.Technion.Ac.Il  davidba@Moav.Techniona.Ac.Il
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Religion and Politics (was: Re: CLINTON SPEECH TEXT...)
Date: 2 Sep 92 19:07:24 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <1992Aug29.132722.25804@cs.brown.edu> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
>
>Is this commonly accepted among Muslims? I always thought that
>what ruins religion is when it becomes mixed with politics and
>forms a hierarchical structure to rule the people. We have
>certainly seen this hurt both Judaism and Christianity.

We could say that this is the reason for a continuing message from
The Almighty :-).  We could also say that is the reason for the
political unrest in the Middle East - that outside forces want to
permanently destroy that fine line in Islam/Islamic governments.

>One may claim that such a structure is necessary for the continuation
>of the existance of the religion in question, but in the long
>run the religion vanishes, and only the structure remains.

One may also claim that the assimilation of religious people in
foreign lands (and especially the occupation of foreign-secular
governments in traditional lands) creates the destruction of
cultural, socio-religious structure.

>That is not to say that the principals of religion should not be
>applied in certain state matters, but the political hierarchy
>should not be composed of the religious leaders.

Then what was the reason God sent prophets to the people?

And is the political concept of Zionism?  Why make historical
claims based on Biblical testament then?

As I like to say:

		"Since when did the affairs of the state
		take precedence over the affairs of God?"

Anisa

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: Religion and Politics (was: Re: CLINTON SPEECH TEXT...)
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 20:23:22 GMT

aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh) writes:
#dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
##
##Is this commonly accepted among Muslims? I always thought that
##what ruins religion is when it becomes mixed with politics and
##forms a hierarchical structure to rule the people. We have
##certainly seen this hurt both Judaism and Christianity.
#
#We could say that this is the reason for a continuing message from
#The Almighty :-).  

Ah, if only these messages would come with a certified signature! :-)

#We could also say that is the reason for the
#political unrest in the Middle East - that outside forces want to
#permanently destroy that fine line in Islam/Islamic governments.

Nop. Arab countries have been causing most of the damage. Look
at the Egypt-Yemen war, the civil war in Lebanon, the Iran-Iraq
war, etc etc. You can't blame the West and/or Israel for all
of these.

##One may claim that such a structure is necessary for the continuation
##of the existance of the religion in question, but in the long
##run the religion vanishes, and only the structure remains.
#
#One may also claim that the assimilation of religious people in
#foreign lands (and especially the occupation of foreign-secular
#governments in traditional lands) creates the destruction of
#cultural, socio-religious structure.

This is unfortunately correct, and it happens all over the world.
It seems religion has to find new ways to fight the challenge
presented to it by liberalism, science, and freedom. However,
instead of modifying, religion seems to become more and more
prohibitive and narrow-minded. I think this is true to a large
extent of all major religions.

##That is not to say that the principals of religion should not be
##applied in certain state matters, but the political hierarchy
##should not be composed of the religious leaders.
#
#Then what was the reason God sent prophets to the people?

Have you seen any prophets lately? We are in desperate need of
one.

#And is the political concept of Zionism?  Why make historical
#claims based on Biblical testament then?

The word "Zionism" has been abused to such an extent that it 
hardly has any common interpretation anymore. Personally, I
reject claims to land made on Biblical texts.


-Danny Keren.


Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:19171 alt.war:1848
From: urf@icl.se (Urban F)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,alt.war
Subject: Re: Nuclear War in the Middle East - Soviet Nuclear Weapons Stolen?
Date: 22 Aug 92 18:05:19 GMT
Organization: None. On USENET I speak only for myself.

rda834x@nella4.cc.monash.edu.au (J. Zufi) writes:

>Point 2: I doubt the leaders of the independant states of the old Soviet Union
>	would just hand out tactical nukes. They know exactly what they are,
>	what they can do, and the old formula that Islam+Nukes=problems.

But some of these new states are Islamic themselves. And it doesn't have
to be the leaders who "hand them out".
(Personally, I don't have any opinion on whether this has happened or not.)
-- 
 Urban Fredriksson urf@icl.se (Or: n.g.u.fredriksson.swe2001@oasis.icl.co.uk)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast