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Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 10:25:48 -0500
From:         JACKSOSM@VUCTRVAX.BITNET
Subject:      Re: GOOD [bad] MOVIES

Subj:   RE: GOOD [bad] MOVIES

>>I am undoubtedly biased...but I still can't help feeling that BR fell short...
>>ESPECIALLY the little tag at the end that tells how
>>the peaceful Hurons were slaughtered x-many years later by another tribe.  It
>>left a distinct impression in my mind that the author wished to blame the
>>influence of the missionaries on their defeat...

>>...given the assumptions of the film, isn't it reasonable to conclude
>>that the conversion to Christianity by the Hurons might have contributed
>>to their defeat by tribes less sensitive to..."turning one's cheek"...

>It's certainly moot whether or not the Hurons' Christianity left them
>vulnerable to aggression...but I can find no hint of any intent by
>the authors to assign blame to the missionaries. Every blackrobe I've
>ever known would leap on that assertion with Aristotelian frenzy,
>as a perfect example of "post hoc ergo propter hoc" -- a rhetorical
>fallacy that confuses sequence with causation.

>Example: 95% of drug addicts drink milk as children...therefore
>milk-drinking leads to drug addiction. Yes the movie depicts the
>conversion of the Hurons, then mentions their defeat by the Iroquois.
>Is this the same as blaming the defeat on the blackrobes?
>
>Great Xavier's Ghost! Could we, as Thomas a Kempis suggested,
>be mistaking emotion for zeal?
>
>kjf-

kjf, your objection is noted.  However, I simply raised the question of
connectivity, I'm not making a syllogistic argument.  Leaving Kempis
aside, I still subscribe to the grass roots theory that if it walks
like a duck, sounds like a duck, looks like a duck, then maybe we
should call it a duck.  The film's juxtaposition of the Huron's future
annihilation at the hands of their enemies (Iroquois ?) following their
mass conversion to Christianity is sufficient ground to at least ponder
if there is, indeed, a causal relation.  I suppose this is analogous to
resurrecting Gibbon's argument for the decline of the Roman empire.
I realize Gibbon's argument is out of favor, but I suspect he was not as
entirely wrong as some historians might have us believe.  I hope I don't
sound like I'm grinding an axe.

j-man
    <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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Date:         Mon, 5 Oct 1992 17:46:53 EST
From:         "(Steve X. Portigal)" <stevep@SNOWHITE.CIS.UOGUELPH.CA>
Subject:      Re: COMMITMENTS
              "CINEMA-L@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU" at Oct 5, 92 6:41 pm

  Did anyone besides me catch the cameo of Alan Parker as the recording
engineer near the end of the film? He was sitting in one of the booths...
(now memory is blurring....I'm pretty sure he was a recording engineer,
if not then a record exec).


Sigh. At any rate Parker was in the picture at the end when they show what
each of the characters ends up doing. I don't even know how I knew what he
looked like, I just knew it was him on sight (and yes the credits confirmed
it).

Steve
--
/*************************************************************\
|  Steve Portigal  University of Guelph  Guelph, Ontario      |
|  stevep@snowhite.cis.uoguelph.ca (519) 824-4120 x 3580      |
\*************************************************************/
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Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 13:33:52 BST
From:         "(John Smyth)" <eeijsh@EEIUC.ERICSSON.SE>
Subject:      UNFORGIVEN

SPOILER......................















I saw UNFORGIVEN last w/end. I thought Gene HAckman gave the best performance in
 a movie
that had a lot of good performances. A couple of minor quibbles though :
1) The prostitute's face didn't seem very disfigured. I know that her injuries
were exagerated by the time Clint & Morgan heard about the incident. However,
when Clint wakes up (after his fever breaks), he instantly recognises that the
 woman
standing over him is the carved-up prostitute, even though her face is hardly
 marked.

2) Clint's shooting at the end of the movie (when he avenges Ned) has improved a
 lot
since the start of the movie (when he couldn't hit anything with a pistol)

I still loved the movie. However, the person with whom I saw the movie didn't
 enjoy
the movie quite so much because he felt that there was no 'good' characters,
 just
varying degrees of evil. What do y`all think ?

                          John Smyth
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Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 15:58:23 -0500
From:         FAC_JCLARK@JMUVAX.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Good [BAD] Movies

On your Oscar stinker, Michael K.: -- Boy, are *you* hard to please!  Actually,
I'd probably be a little more generous about the quality of many of these films,
   though I wouldn't have rated them best of the year winners.

I do agree on the GODFATHER films, though.  They do constitute at great saga
(at least 1 and 2, and these even better--heresy!--in their chronological re-
cutting to form the true "saga") of American life, and if Coppola had never
done anything else of note, he'd still be up there with the handful of cinema
greats for this alone.  'Nuff said.  Jeff Clark
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From: wu@mdd.comm.mot.com (Philip Wu)
Subject: Re: Last of the Mohicans
Organization: Motorola - Mobile Data Division; Richmond, BC
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 21:02:15 GMT

In <CINEMA-L%92093009420497@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU> Maroy Akos <JZK2115@HUSZEG11.BITNET> writes:

>Yes, Michael Mann is responsible for Manhunter as well.
>As for a TV series, about gangsters in Las Vegas, things like that. I forgot
>the title, but the title song was 'Runaway', a '50-s classic song.

Also that stupid movie "Band of the Hand" or something like that.

Phil
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Date:         Sat, 26 Sep 1992 11:42:38 CST
From:         "Rick Francis, aka Grumpy Old Man" <C47805NF@WUVMD.BITNET>
Subject:      My apologies re: Gilgamesh

I would like to apologize for my callous and inappropriate use of
Grumpy Old Man.  All I gave was a tired black and white (black and
green on some monitors) translation of the color Saturday Night
Live character Grumpy Old Man, as played by Dana Carvey, who probably
translated him from the flesh of some real old man, perhaps his
grandfather, but there is of course NO DOUBT that the Original,
though dead, would be infinitely superior to the AWFUL EVIL defiled
degenerate version which Dana Carvey offers.

Similarly I'm sure you would all rather watch George Bush than Dana
Carvey's imitation/interpretive translation.

Well, I've got to go.  I'm going to go enjoy some great art from the past,
some proto-Corinthian vases, some Cycladic sculptures, and a few of my
favorite authors . . . It's funny though.  Even though a hundred years
ago these authors were respected critically and were household names, now
many of them are unknown except to scholars, and their works are long
out of print. Wonder how that happens?

Dan Turner, Hollywood Detective, aka Rick Francis
<C47805NF@WUVMD>

"From the doorway a roscoe said "Kachow!" and a slug creased the
side of my noggin.  Neon lights exploded inside my think-tank . . .
She was as dead as a stuffed mongoose . . .  I wasn't badly hurt.  But I
don't like to be shot at.  I don't like dames to be rubbed out when I'm
flinging woo at them."

Robert Leslie Bellem's Dan Turner, Hollywood Detective
(from "Killer's Harvest,"  in the pulp series _Spicy Detective_, July,
1938)
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Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1992 08:29:00 EST
From:         MCINTYRE@MSUPA.BITNET
Subject:      _The Party_

>From:         ELGFROEHRER@PSUCES.BITNET

>After reading Richard's message about What's Up Tigerlily? (an extremely funny
>movie), I remembered another one which I caught on cable last year, had never
>heard of it before, it was hilarious.  It is called -THE PARTY_.  Peter Sellers
>plays an Indian (from India) actor who is making an American film, he is
>invited to schmooz with Hollywood types at this cocktail party and the film is
>basically what transpires there.  Some video stores have it, see it if you can,
>very funny stuff.

>Ellen

Before the movie gets to the party, there are some very funny scenes of
Sellers' bumbling actor totally destroying a movie shoot.

At the party, most of the humor is at the expense of Sellers' character.
He is the out of place boob who is constantly doing the wrong thing at
the wrong time.  Depending on my mood when I see the film this can be
painful if I identify too much with Sellers' character or quite funny
if I can be detached.  But it is definately cruel humor: you are laughing
at someone, rather than with someone.

The love interest is played by Claudine Longet, who gets to sing one song.
I leave it to your taste as to whether you consider that a plus or not. 8-)

John McIntyre
Physics - Astronomy Dept
Michigan State University

P.S.  Lest anyone wonder where I stand on the question posed in the last
paragraph, I own all six of her albums. 8-)
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Date:         Sun, 27 Sep 1992 23:18:16 -0400
From:         MDESCHUYTENE@SBCCMAIL.BITNET
Subject:      ps: Ken Russell

               State University of New York at Stony Brook
                       Stony Brook, NY 11794-8121

                                            Michel Deschuyteneer
                                            Department of Neurology, HSC
                                            516 444-1469
                                            27-Sep-1992 11:10pm EDT
FROM:  MDESCHUYTENEER
TO:    Remote Addressee                     ( _cinema-l@auvm.bitnet )

SUBJECT: ps: Ken Russell

    I serendipitously found this week-en that DANTE'S INFERNO is actually
    available on video. And THE MUSIC LOVERS is too, despite the fact that
    I forgot to put a star next to it (Oops) in my original posting.
    MICHEL
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Date:         Mon, 5 Oct 1992 16:00:09 -0400
From:         FISHERKJ@SNYONEVA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: GOOD [bad] MOVIES

>For all its flaws, DANCES WITH WOLVES adds a
>little cultural balance to the mythology of a lost culture.

Agreed...but at what price balance? DANCES offsets the simplistic
old cliche (bloodthirsty savage) with a simplistic new one (noble
victim). That's like balancing a 14lb steak with a 14lb pecan pie.

Some folks have talked about the "hatred" of DANCES displayed on
this list. Has anyone really seen anything as strong as hatred?
Dismissive disdain maybe, and impatience, -- but hatred? Nah.

kjf-
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From: ajl2h@curry.edschool.Virginia.EDU (Ami Jo Lewter)
Subject: The Firm
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 19:16:07 GMT

Does anyone know when "The Firm" starring Tom Cruise will be
released?  I read the book last summer and will be interested
to see the film.  If you have any other information, like other
co-stars, etc., I'd be interested in that too.
					--Ami
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From: rtimko@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Roger M Timko)
Subject: Re: _The_Women_/B&W/Color
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 09:33:34 GMT



..CLAWSON@LOYNOVM.BITNET writes:

>Why is the whole film in B & W _except_ for the fashion show?

I noticed this also. About a year ago some friends from LA suggested we
watch _The Women_ and _Stage Door_. The fact my friends were watching me
for my reaction was more distrubing than the scene.. We came to the
conclusion (at the time) that the film was a product of "Old-Hollywood",
somewhat sexist, targeted to women movie-goers. So, the scene was pumped
with color, music, choreography. It seems more out-of-place since the
film itself is so sharp and non-traditional.

I noticed the same thing while watching "How To Marry A Millionaire". The
fashion show segment is VERY long and detailed. It's campy and funny now,
but I think it was added for the same reason it was added to _The Women_,
Hollywood movie-makers (mostly men) thought it was the female expectation
of "glamour".
-- 

Martin Timko                       |   "Most good painters don't know what
rtimko@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu   |    they think until they paint it."
                                   |                   - Robert Motherwell
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Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 08:52:00 LCL
From:         "(RAPSW)" <RAPSW.ORS@MHS.UNC.EDU>
Subject:      Husbands and Wives

To: CINEMA

I saw Woody Allen's latest movie last night and thought it was well-acted
and thought-provoking.  I feel compelled, however, to issue a warning to
anyone contemplating seeing it:

Take some dramamine before you go.

I had to keep my eyes closed during much of the last part of the movie
because I got motion sickness.  The constant dipping, swirling, jerking,
cutting, and refocusing of the camera overcame me; I broke out in a sweat
and almost lost my dinner.  A camera technique which is tolerable (though
obnoxious) in a 30-second TV commercial is positively  gut-wrenching after
90 minutes on a big screen.

(Lest you accuse me of being a wuss, I'll have you know I've watched things
like _The Fly_, _The Fly II_, and the Alien movies with nary an urp.)

We love you, Woody.  You can put the camera back on the dolly now.

--Penny
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Date:         Mon, 5 Oct 1992 17:56:43 BST
From:         "(John Smyth)" <eeijsh@EEIUC.ERICSSON.SE>
Subject:      UNFORGIVEN

SPOILER
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

>
>
>

>
>

>
I think the ending of UNFORGIVEN departs a lot from
the tone of the rest of the movie. The message seemed
to be that violence begets violence, and those who live
by the gun will ultimately be destroyed. But the gun-fight
at the end of the movie, when Munny kills all his opponents
and rides off to live happily ever after, is perhaps less
realistic. Surely a bounty-hunter who killed a sheriff, 5
deputies, an unarmed barkeeper and the two cowboys would
have a bounty placed upon himself.
                                  The movie "Shane" had a more
realistic outcome, with Alan Ladd (wounded ) disappearing into
the night and an uncertain future. OK OK, there aren't too many
similarities between the two movies, but I thought Clint might
have done better than just a piece of text scrolling up the screen
at the end of UNFORGIVEN, telling us that Munny had prospered.
            Rod Steiger, in a magazine interview this month,
reckoned that it was very unrealistic to show a black man
(Freeman) in a white brothel.

      It's still a great movie.

                        John Smyth
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Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 13:42:42 -0500
From:         FAC_JCLARK@JMUVAX.BITNET
Subject:      Re: RE:UNFORGIVEN

Steve:
The "Don" in Clint's dedication is director Don Siegel--who I don't think
directed him in a real western (except the pseudo-one the TV series McCloud
was based on; can't recall the name), but did several pictures with him
including the original Dirty Harry, part of whose persona is relevant to
THE UNFORGIVEN.

By the way I, too, think it's possibly the best film of the year.  Jeff Clark
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Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1992 09:13:25 EDT
From:         Anjani Chandra <QAI@NIHCU.BITNET>
Subject:      The Last of the Mohicans

Any comments on The Last of the Mohicans? ... Other than the
fact that Daniel Day Lewis is gorgeous, as always.

--Anjani
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Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 11:52:06 BST
From:         "(Patrick Walsh)" <eeipwah@EEIUD.ERICSSON.SE>
Subject:      1987 -- THE LAST EMPEROR

Michael writes :

> 1987 -- THE LAST EMPEROR (What is this about?)


  Surely you knew what it was about. Does anybody have any information
how accurate this film was? I am sure that the bit about the cricket
(or whatever insect) surviving under the Throne for all those years wasn't,
but on information was the film based and is it anyway exact?
                                                         Regards,
                                                             Patrick Walsh.
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Date:         Sun, 27 Sep 1992 23:19:00 CST
From:         Rick Francis <C47805NF@WUVMD.BITNET>
Subject:      Blow-Up, Antonioni

I am hoping someone can tip me off to a *good* article or book
section dealing with the 1967 film, _Blow-Up_, dir. M. Antonioni.

I should say that I have gone through these without being
satisfied:

Seymour Chatman, _Antonioni, Or, The Surface of the World_ (best I've seen)
A.J. Prats, _The Autonomous Image_
Cameron and Wood, _Antonioni_
Huss, _Focus on Blow-Up_
McDougal, _Made into Movies:  From Lit. to Film_

That's pretty many pages, but still . . . I feel something is lacking
that I can't bring to it.  I would sure appreciate any help finding
an insightful article. Or, of course, if someone would like to talk about
the film here on the list, that would be swell.  Any fans of this odd
dated, yet interesting film?

Rick Francis  C47805NF@WUVMD      |
Dep't of Comparative Literature,  | "Language is a cognitive prosthesis"
Box 1107                          |
Washington University             |              -- Christopher Dewdney
St. Louis, MO  63130              |
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Date:         Sat, 26 Sep 1992 23:53:00 EDT
From:         Peter.Giordano@WILLIAMS.EDU
Subject:      Re: Coloriz. isn't defilement or evil

Rick describes his library as a repository of art fossilized into artifact-
I feel sorry for him because all the libraries I've ever known have been
really lively places where ideas spawn more ideas and learning and fun
is in the air we breathe there -
I don't agree with his experiment either - It does nothing to prove
what he says about colorization - The foundation of his argument is
that colorization somehow makes a film more accessable but I see to
proof oof that.
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Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 14:45:52 EDT
From:         SCHIBERG@MOREKYPR.BITNET
Subject:      Bad Timing

Does anyone know if BAD TIMING; A SENSUAL OBSESSION by Nicholas Roeg
is available on video?  I know that Cinemax has played it in the
past, but I haven't seen it around for awhile.  Thanks for
any help on this!

Susan
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Date:         Mon, 5 Oct 1992 18:41:19 BST
From:         "(John Smyth)" <eeijsh@EEIUC.ERICSSON.SE>
Subject:      COMMITMENTS

ELLEN,
The movie did very well in Ireland. It didn't cost a lot to make
and has paid for itself several times over. The music press
in Dublin (begrudgers to a man) complained loudly that everybody
would think that young people in Dublin and Ireland listen to
nothing but Motown and therefore didn't like the movie too much.
         Motown/Blues has a large following in Ireland/UK, but not
to the extent that the movie indicates. As for the link with African
American culture, I really don't know. The link that Jimmy Rabbitte
makes between 'blacks' and Dubliners is a bit weak, really. (E.g.the Irish
are the blacks of Europe, Dubliners are the blacks of Ireland and
Northsiders are the blacks of Dublin).
                        Traditional Irish music is probably the strongest
remaining aspect of Irish culture, and the music and songs relate
the trials and tribulations of Ireland and the Irish as a colony.
Perhaps there is a link between African-American 'Blues' Music
and traditional Irish music in the songs of the oppressed.

                        John
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Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1992 10:43:41 -0500
From:         FAC_JCLARK@JMUVAX.BITNET
Subject:      Re: The Last of the Mohicans

I saw LAST OF THE MOHICANS this weekend.  A *wonderful* film, translation or
no.  I've never gotten all the way through that or any other Cooper novel,
but this film has got to be at least a successful independent creation. What
strikes me on first response is that filmmaker Michael Mann has managed to
retain a full-fledged mood of historical romance not by embellishing the movie
with baroque ornamentation of diction, plot and just plain stateliness of
pace (some of which I vaguely remember can be attributed to the experience of
reading Cooper now), but by going for clean lines and swiftness.  That's an
impression I can't be more exact with at the moment; but the film, despite
the fact that it moves, does not seem hurried or breakneck like your typical
contemporary thriller that means to blow you away.

As usual, Daniel Day-Lewis is a wonder.  I'm also gratified that Russell
Means makes a great Chingachcook (sp?); he's got real presence and I'd like to
see him onscreen more.  I remember him from the days when he was an important
mover in the American Indian Movement, and spoke at the last school I was at
while I videotaped the proceedings.  This is a new dimension of the same
compelling man.  Jeff Clark
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Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 18:23:50 -0500
From:         FAC_JCLARK@JMUVAX.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Miracle

Susan--I haven't seen The Miracle yet myself, nor The Icicle Thief, though
both are on my own list, too.  I've gotten awful lazy in the past year about
renting videos, when I end up buying so many titles on laserdisc.  Lazy and
spoiled, make that....  Jeff Clark
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