From: backon@vms.huji.ac.il
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: american opinion
Date: 31 Dec 92 07:31:03 GMT
Distribution: talk,world
Organization: The Hebrew University of Jerusalem

In article <bill.725741652@castor>, bill@cognet.ucla.edu (William M. Eldridge) writes:
> backon@vms.huji.ac.il writes:
>
>>> So Palestinians in Israel (the West Bank, which Israel claims) are
>>> given no voting rights despite having resided in the territory for
>>> umpteen generations, but this is comparable to western democracy.
>
>>For an analogy:  Is Switzerland a democratic country ? Yes, but you can be born
>>in Switzerland, your father can be born in Switzerland, and your grandfather
>>can be born in Switzerland, but that DOESN'T necessarily mean that *you*
>>automatically get Swiss citizenship.
>
> This is a good analogy.  What do you have to do to get citizenship then?

I'm afraid you simply don't understand that in MANY European countries,
citizenship is not automatic. Switzerland is no exception.

>
>>Is the United States a democratic country ? Yet to get US citizenship, you
>>must:
>
> [blah blah blah deleted]
>
> This is a terrible analogy.  We're not talking about prospective immigrants
> showing up and requesting citizenship at the border.  We're talking about
> a people who have occupied a land for at least 2000 years and suddenly
> finding themselves not citizens in that very land.
>


"at least 2000 years" ???  That's the crux of the matter.



>>democracies ? And don't forget that persons requesting citizenship in these
>>western democracies are peaceful, law-abiding individuals. This is NOT the case
>>with the *territories* on the West Bank  and Gaza where violence, mayhem, and
>>murder are a daily occurence. Nice law-abiding citizens :-)  :-)
>
> I don't think the Palestinians were such bad citizens 50 years ago.  Maybe
> someone did something to irritate them?


They were murdering Jews in Hebron (famous massacre more than 60 years ago) and
in Jaffa (the poet Brenner) way before Israel was established as a state. Yes,
Jews living in Israel irritate them.

>>> Also, I would love to know how easy it is for an Arab to buy prime
>>> real estate in downtown Tel Aviv.
>
>>Actually downtown Tel Aviv is a dump. But I guess you never ate at Ahmad &
>>Salim Restaurant in the very fashionable north Tel Aviv. And I wouldn't
>>exactly say that Ahmad and Salim are typical Jewish Israeli names :-)  By the
>>way, an Israeli Arab steel producer *did* recently purchase some prime real
>>estate in Tel Aviv.
>
> Good, this is the information I was asking for.
>
>>> Israel has understood demographics very well in its dealings with
>>> the Arab population, which is how an Arab population got a Jewish
>>> minority state foisted upon it in the first place.
>>>
>>>>By the way, the Arab representation in the Knesset is (percentage
>>>>wise) far more reflective of the demographics of the country than,
>>>>say, the black representation in the American Congress. In fact, the
>>>>Arab vote represents a major voice during all Israeli elections.
>>>
>>> Get real.  Blacks have major representation in the American Congress,
>
>>Let's see. Blacks are about 12% of the American population so they *should*
>>have 12% of members of congress (43 congressmen out of 535). Funny, I thought

(I posted a followup to this with a correction. It should have read 64 (out of
535)


>>the Black Caucus in congress was MUCH smaller. In Israel, Arabs make up around
>>17% of the population. Apart from having two parties in the Israeli Knesset,
>>they make up a majority of the HADASH (communist) party, and there are Israeli
>>Arabs who are Knesset members in the Labor Party, MERETZ, and (I believe) one
>>or more in the LIKUD. Just for the record, the day after elections, the
>>newpapers publish the percentage and absolute numbers that each party received
>>and this is broken down by city/village, etc. Don't laugh but there *were* a
>>number of Israeli Arabs  who voted for Kahana (KACH) in 1986 (?) and, more
>>recently, for MOLEDET and TZOMET.
>
> In the rest of my paragraph below, I explain that real representation
> does not just deal with the racial percentages, but whether the needs
> and wishes of people are reflected in the decision-making process and
> in the laws enacted.  There has been 1/9 black percentage on the
> Supreme Court for the last thirty years, there is a large percentage

There are a number of Arab judges in the Israeli courts, including the District
Courts (which are like superior court in the States).


> of black mayors in the U.S., there is some attempt to make the cabinet
> more reflective of these percentages, and I believe the black percentage
> in Congress has significantly increased in the last thirty years, though
> I don't have figures on that (my last Congressman was black, so maybe
> that slanted my view of representation).
>
> To be precise, there are 435 voting congressmen (the Senate was never
> intended to be a strictly representational body - originally, it wasn't
> even selected by popular vote), though 12% of 435 is still more than 43.
> Exactly what percentage of the Knesset do the Arabs have?  (This of course
> is completely ignoring the still valid question of whether 700,000
> is the number of Arabs who should be participating in the elections).
>
>>> especially when you consider that whites enact legislation intended
>>> to help blacks - a pretty rare occurrence in Israel, when Arab schools
>>> are often shut down and curfews are imposed on their populations.
>
>>Wrong. NOT in Israel (proper) but in the West Bank and Gaza.
>
> Accepted, though I would like to know how Arab education is compared
> to Jewish (this is of course inviting a lot of attack, since public
> education in the U.S. is hardly equal across the color line, but I
> really am asking the question to get honest facts, not to stir things
> up.)
>

There is a problem here but that has more to do with the willingness of the
local population to pay LOCAL city taxes (in Hebrew: ARNONA). I pay much more
in local city taxes (which pay for schools, etc.) for my lousy 2-room apartment
in a not-so-good neighborhood in Jerusalem than a resident of a large
spacious villa in a typical Arab village. As they say, you get what you pay
for.


>>> Do you remember Shamir or Rabin fervently seeking a coalition with
>>> any Arab factions in forming the government?
>
>>I really hate to disappoint you but Rabin has the HADASH and two Arab parties
>>passively supporting his coalition in that they always vote FOR (and not
>>AGAINST) the government in a NO_CONFIDENCE motion in the Knesset.
>
> I'm not disappointed, though I wonder about the word "passive" - it
> sounds like Uncle Tom blacks, when I would hope that it's a more active
> role.
>
>  [ a line about Israel being ravaged during the Iraqi war ]
>
>>>>|> Perhaps you should look at pictures from Iraq or Sarajevo, and then
>>>>|> give me a definition of "ravaged".  Israel sat tight, and now
>>>>|> expects to be paid very handsomely for it. (or did - there is a
>>>>|> question of whether having the loan guarantees now dooms the
>>>>|> peace process more than any other act).
>>>
>>>>Well, what is your point? Yes, Israel was very patient.
>>>
>>> My point is that Israel was not "ravaged" in the Iraq war.
>
>>I see. A few hundred million dollars in damages is not *ravage*. Whole
>>neighborhoods demolished by SCUD missles is not *ravage*. Interesting.
>
> Compared to what happened to Iraq, this was not ravaged.  Compared to
> the recent hurricane in Florida, this was not ravaged.  Compared to
> the monsoons that wipe out Bangladesh every three years, this was not
> ravaged.  Compared to what almost any country suffers in a war, this
> is not ravaged.  I refuse to be over-sympathetic to what is no more
> than a large insurance claim.  I'm more sympathetic to the state of
> emergency Israel had to live under during that time.
>
>>> This is just trying to blow up the sympathy level for Israel
>>> to get more money.  Everybody else in the world PAID during that
>>> war.  Israel feels it deserves a profit.
>>> (Casualties?  Ten?  Oh my.)
>
>>Oh my ! How Christian of you ! But then again, you know how JEWS are when it
>>comes to profit :-)
>
> Why are you bringing in the Christian/Jew angle (have I made any pro-Christian
> or anti-Jewish comments?).

Yes, your comment was absurd and rascist.


> To restate, everyone from Japan to the U.S. to Saudi Arabia to Iraq lost
> a lot of money in this war.  Israel did not lose very much, and expects
> compensation past the $3 billion the U.S. already gives it every year.
> --
> {{{{ bill eldridge           310-206-3960                x                }}}}
> {{{{ bill@cognet.ucla.edu    310-206-3987 fax           xxx              }}}}
> {{{{ ~more, ~better, ~faster [80's motto]                x              }}}}
> {{{{ ~hot, ~toxic, and ~shallow [90's motto]                              }}}}


Josh
backon@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL