HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rwberry@hubcap.clemson.edu (Robert W Berry)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.marching
Organization: Clemson University
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 03:45:13 GMT

I have two problems with rec.marching.whatever:

1)  I don't think marching is a large enough topic to just the creation
of a new hierarchy just off of rec.  ( For example the music on the
other hand has had several groups created under it with tons of traffic
daily.  That type of variety in content and amount of traffic *does*
warrant its own hierarchy.)

2)  I *like* stressing that marching can be an art form.  I don't want
it to be confused with military marching, etc.  (And once again, I don't
think that the traffic in alt.drumcorps warrants the creation of a
rec.marching.drumcorps.)

Personally, I believe that a lot of the arguements against being under
the arts hierarchy are somewhat specious.  What does the length of the
groups name really have to do with it?  Maybe I am missing something
here, but how many times to you *really* have to type the name.  And is
the extra four characters really going to be that much of a bother in a
22 character name?

And as far as having the name drumcorps in the group name to insure
people will know what it is all about, I think most people would get
the idea that marching is something that more than just what HS bands
do.  Then they could subscribe for a couple of days and see.  If that
doesn't help they could always check the charter.  IMHO, if you start
throwing out groups ad hoc without checking to see what they are about,
you're going to miss a great deal of the benefits of the USEnet.

(And if people like this do exist in any type of numbers at all, there
are probably as many HS Band kids who won't want to read about drumcorps
as people that don't want to read about HS-Band.)

I *do* feel that by including drumcorps we may be alienating other
people that could be active participants in the group.  If the traffic
becomes unbearably heavy, then we can consider splitting the group into
WGI, MBA, DCI and DCA, etc. 

Later,
Bob



-- 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-=- Bob Berry -=- Net-Guru's Inc.        ! rwberry@hubcap.clemson.edu   -=-
-=- Teach them quick, before they think. ! 803-654-7623 || 803-656-1076 -=-
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Xref: sparky news.groups:18591 rec.music.bluenote:7562
From: rshapiro@bbn.com (Richard Shapiro)
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.bluenote
Subject: Re: r.m.bluenote --> r.m.jazz + r.m.blues (was: rec.music.jazz)
Date: 1 Oct 92 16:40:46 GMT
	<1992Oct1.152414.16292@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU>
Distribution: na
Organization: BBN, Cambridge MA
NNTP-Posting-Host: kariba.bbn.com
In-reply-to: gidi@Hilbert.Stanford.EDU's message of 1 Oct 92 15:24:14 GMT

In article <1992Oct1.152414.16292@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> gidi@Hilbert.Stanford.EDU (Gidi Avrahami) writes:
   Richard Shapiro said something like "you don't go to the blues bins in
   a record store looking for the music of John Coltrane".


Uh, no. I was just listing some examples of the way that all of us,
including Gidi, I'm sure, are perfectly capable of making the
distinction between blues and jazz when we're in situations that
require us to do that. As with a number of other things I've said in
this discussion, this was pulled out of context to make a straw-man
argument, in this case about John Coltrane.
Xref: sparky news.groups:18655 rec.music.bluenote:7600
From: smehta@kwela.nynexst.com (Sandeep Mehta)
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.bluenote
Subject: Re: r.m.bluenote --> r.m.jazz + r.m.blues (was: rec.music.jazz)
Date: 2 Oct 92 22:13:51 GMT
	<1992Oct1.041938.23134@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>
	<RSHAPIRO.92Oct1122430@kariba.bbn.com>
	<1992Oct2.170707.26647@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>
Reply-To: smehta@nynexst.com
Distribution: na
Organization: Speech Technology, AI Lab, NYNEX S&T Inc, White Plains, NY


> mingus@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Damballah Wedo) writes:

> I'll also reiterate my belief that at the bottom of this effort to
> split the group is the narrowminded desire to exclude anything that
> is not exactly what one is interested in. That in turn is the worst
> thing of all.

Amen! And let me quote Ornette Coleman one more time:

	I think music should have meaning for people first of all,
	and secondly, it should have a quality of *you* that people
	can appreciate. The naturalness of music, of sounds, is basic
	to human expression. When I was young, I didn't understand
	that music came in sets of categories - music for babies,
	music for teenagers, music for black people, music for white
	people. I thought it was all just music.  We in the Western
	world suffer from too many categories and classes; we've
	forgotten that we all still have diapers on. We've separated
	music from life.

--
smehta@nynexst.com
--
               "Why do you compose atonally? You've got talent!"
                 -- Strauss to Hindemith, Donaueschingen, 1921.
From: emv@msen.com (Edward Vielmetti)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RESULT: sci.virtual-worlds.apps passes 133:8
Date: 29 Sep 1992 12:25:25 -0400
Organization: Msen, Inc. -- Ann Arbor, Michigan
NNTP-Posting-Host: nigel.msen.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

ok, let's see if i get it.

if the vote really fails you have to wait six months.
if the vote is spoiled you immediately do a re-vote.

presumably there are safeguards that help ensure that someone doesn't
spoil a vote on an unpopular group over and over so that it's perpetually
up for a vote....

--Ed
From: FURRJK@VTVM1.CC.VT.EDU (Joel Furr)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: CFD for *.apathy newsgroups
Date: 30 Sep 1992 02:42:47 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu



----------------------------Original message----------------------------
I am issuing a CFD for a series of *.apathy newsgroups, as follows:

comp.apathy -- are computers apathetic?  discussion of the so-called
               A.I.  (Apathetic Intelligence), etc.
misc.apathy -- apathy in general
rec.apathy  -- tips from apathy fans, apathy how-to's, apathy competitions...
sci.apathy -- the scientific study of apathy as a phenomenon
soc.apathy  -- discussions of apathetics in society, apathetic organizations,
               possibly a place for apathetics to make social contacts, etc.
talk.apathy  -- discussions of apathy, apathetic talk, politics of apathy

Please comment on these proposed newsgroups and on any others you think
might have merit: news.groups.apathy? rec.arts.startrek.apathy? etc. etc.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: M23231@mwvm.mitre.org
Subject: RFD sci.hpv/rec.bicycles.hpv
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, McLean VA 22102
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 20:02:20 GMT

There has been a call for discussion re the formation of a new newsgroup for th
e discussion of hpv related topics--just the sort of thing that is now being di
scussed via the hpv mailing list.
 
I would be for this. I don't care whether it comes under sci.hpv or rec.bicycle
s.hpv--however, it seem to me that what is being discussed is more like science
than like rec. Then, too, if it were under sci.hpv there wouldn't be a tendency
 for uninterested but curious browsers from the rec.bicycles.xxx groups to cras
h the discussion and derail it with side issues.
 
 
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.religion.kibology
From: barr@pop.psu.edu (David Barr)
Subject: Re: Proposal of new group: soc.culture.kibonia
Organization: Penn State Population Research Institute
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 19:18:37 GMT

In article <1992Sep30.170957.6602@ennews.eas.asu.edu> sridhar@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (Sridhar Venkataraman) writes:
>Leader Kibo writes:
>
>)[]
>)	Kibonia is a small sovereign country which is, unfortunately,
>)landlocked.  In fact, it borders only Massachusetts.  However, there is
>)no reason its hard-working population should not have a truly wonderful
>)newsgroup dedicated the the culture, the history, the tourism, and the
>)illustrious citizen of Kibonia.
>)
>)	It would also be the only soc.culture.* newsgroup to be read by
>)EVERYONE in its native country, and would serve as an excellent example
>)of how Usenet will soon control the world.
>
>Addendum:
>Since not everyone receives alt.religion.kibology we need
>soc.culture.kibonia.

Quick!  Let's get Alok to run a CFV!  It's sure to pass hands down!!!!!!

--Dave
"I'm the first kid in my (3 person) office to have OFISHUL KIBO POSTERZ!!"
-- 
System Administrator, Population Research Institute    barr@pop.psu.edu
  "An analogy is like instant coffee: it can wake you up, but it's
  not the real thing"  -- Peter da Silva
From: gordons@CS.ColoState.EDU (vahl scott gordon)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: rec.arts.marching vs. rec.marching
Date: 1 Oct 92 19:47:59 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University

From: pae@teal.csn.org (Phil Earnhardt)
>>More importantly, there are a lot of marching activities that are not arts at
>>all.  So if you want to create the possibility for future expansion under
>>"marching", you're eliminating any marching activities which are not arts.
>
>The possiblilty of non-artistic marching activities was considered and
>deliberately excluded. Read the charter in the RFD: we are explicitly
>excluding non-artistic marching. If you or someone else wishes to discuss
>non-artistic marching, you're welcome to do that elsewhere.

My point is, why stress the "marching" aspect?  I can see rec.arts.drumcorps
and I can see rec.marching.drumcorps, but rec.arts.marching implies that
"marching" is a subset of "art".  I agree that drumcorps is a form of art,
and that drumcorps is a subset of marching, but I don't see that marching
is inherently an art.

>Let me re-state: at this time, marching activities do not qualify as a major
>grouping within the rec hierarchy. In the future, they might. However, what's
>necessary to create a majojr sub-group is a *demonstration* that there's
>a demand for such a place in the hierarchy. Right now, that's not present.

But this charter doesn't allow non-artistic marching to even be discussed.

>>I disagree and offer that the potential future inclusion of military marching,
>>Scottish marching (tatoo, pipe and drum, ... did you know that they have their
>>own "drum and bugle corps world championship"? it's totally different than our
>>version), parades, baton twirling, fife and drum, etc.
>
>Which of these activities would not be at least partially represented by the
>arts umbrella? For me, military marching is the main one that comes to mind.

It's all a matter of opinion whether any of it is art.  I think that drumcorps
is art.  I guess it's just unclear to me:

1) are we trying to put it under arts to "prove" to the world that it is
   an art?  Are we trying to DISTINGUISH drum corps from how it's perceived
   by the unknowing public? If that's the case, then why the "marching" at
   all?  Is it an art because there is marching in it?

2) or, are we trying to create a venue for discussion of drumcorps and
   related activities.  If that's the case, then I think that "marching"
   is the common bond.  In this case, I don't see why the charter should
   exclude inclusion of military marching, since it is part of drumcorps
   heritage.

I think either 1 or 2 is fine.  If 1, then rec.arts.drumcorps.  If 2, then
rec.marching.drumcorps.

                                Scott

p.s. Let me add that any name is ultimately fine by me as long as it's
     under "rec"!  As far as I'm concerned, this is discussion, not argument.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: hch@oclc.org (Curtis Hunter)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.marching
Organization: OCLC Online Computer Library Center, Inc.
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 18:29:24 GMT

In article <BvAK0n.C9B@uunet.uu.net> pae@blackcat.stortek.com (Phil Earnhardt) writes:
>Request for Discussion
>
>Newsgroup: rec.arts.marching
>
>Purpose: Discussion of Drum & Bugle Corps, Bands, and Color Guards
>
>--phil
>pae@blackcat.stortek.com
 
   I don't know if we've had enough discussion about the naming convention yet  to be issuing a CFD?  No one really addressed the question I raised about Why   to place the group under rec.arts.*.  I used the example of rec.music before,   let me try again.  If you look at the rec.* groups, many of them could be considered arts.  But they do not contain arts in their group name.  Example rec.music.*.  Just wondering why the .arts should be included?

 
_______________________________________________________________________________
|                                                                             |
|  Curtis Hunter                      curtis@sporty.col.oh.us                 |
|  Online Computer Library Center     hch@sppy00.UUCP                         |
|  Dublin, OH                         CIS  76040,2605                         |
|  (614) 764-6325                                                             |
|_____________________________________________________________________________|



Xref: sparky news.groups:18388 rec.music.bluenote:7412
From: rsk@sequoia.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.bluenote
Subject: Re: r.m.bluenote --> r.m.jazz + r.m.blues (was: rec.music.jazz)
Date: 26 Sep 92 12:44:28 GMT
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: Cardiothoracic Imaging Research Center

In article <RSHAPIRO.92Sep25103747@kariba.bbn.com> rshapiro@bbn.com (Richard Shapiro) writes:
>There is no special musical relationship between jazz and blues [...].

I categorically disagree with this.  Blues and jazz are so intimately
bound up in each other that attempting to separate them is almost pointless...
which is why the group was created to cover both in the first place.

>Plus, the name has clearly been shown to be confusing -- repeatedly, we see
>queries on r.m.misc about jazz and blues, because novices simply
>haven't a clue that "bluenote" is supposed to cover both (or either)
>of these.

Novices should read news.announce.newusers, where the newsgroups' charters
are clearly and succinctly defined.  Those who do not do so fully
deserve the confusion that befalls them.

>And most important: THERE IS NO CROSS DISCUSSION on
>r.m.bluenote between the jazz articles and the blues articles.

This is flatly wrong.  If you like, I will be happy to pull numerous
articles from my personal archives of the group which demonstrate
extensive cross discussion between jazz and blues topics.

>Unfortunately, there are a lot of politics here: the creators of r.m.bluenote
>have successfully shot down every previous attempt at a reorganization
>before any of them even reached the stage of a formal rfd.

The creators of r.m.bluenote do not enjoy any special status in terms
of this discussion; their only leverage, like yours, is the force of
their arguments.  If you can mount a successful argument, perhaps
you will convince people of your case.

---Rsk
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: cs_jh@cox.nsac.ns.ca (Dr Jeff Hoyle)
Subject: Regarding sci.chem.organomet
Organization: NS Agricultural College
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 12:23:56 GMT

Putting aside the concerns I have about such a specialized sci.chem group.  
I have a major concern about the very small number of posters on this 
issue!  It would seem that there are only a handful of us world-wide (can 
that really be true?) who have an interest in the topic.

I think that some how we have to go out and spread the good news about 
USENET and get many many more chemists involved.  This is an excellent means 
of communication and I feel that the time is right.

I think that one step towards this would be to split sci.chem into several 
logical groups such as organic physical etc and them further sub divide as 
interest is shown.  I think if we take this approach then we can start from 
a better position when persuading others to become involved. [IMHO]
From: dimitri@dutiws.tudelft.nl (Dimitri Tischenko)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: comp.sys.next.bugs -- bad name
Date: 29 Sep 92 20:10:02 GMT
Organization: Delft University of Technology

To add an argument against the name: it's a bad name because 
non-NeXT people will think "Hey, NeXT must be a REALLY buggy system, 
they even have a newsgroup for the bugs!"

However, I do support the idea, but let's choose a more neutral name
like comp.sys.next.faqs or so.

Just my Dfl 0.03

Dimitri
+------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Dimitri Tischenko | D.B.Tischenko@IS.TWI.TUDelft.NL |   NeXTmail preferred!  |
+---------------------------------------+--------------------------------------+
| Delft University of Technology        | Technische Universiteit Delft        |
| Fac Applied Math & Computer Science   | Fac. Techn. Wiskunde & Informatica   |
| The Netherlands                       | Nederland                            |
+---------------------------------------+--------------------------------------+
Xref: sparky news.groups:18813 rec.music.bluenote:7702
From: warkent@ltisun14.epfl.ch (Ken Warkentyne)
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.bluenote
Subject: Re: r.m.bluenote --> r.m.jazz + r.m.blues (was: rec.music.jazz)
Date: 6 Oct 92 09:15:15 GMT
	<SMEHTA.92Oct2181351@kwela.nynexst.com>
	<RSHAPIRO.92Oct3122839@kariba.bbn.com>
	<1992Oct4.123714.14308@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>
Followup-To: news.groups
Distribution: na
Organization: Ecole Polytechnique Federale de Lausanne---Laboratoire de
	Teleinformatique
In-reply-to: mingus@cbnewsl.cb.att.com's message of 4 Oct 92 12:37:14 GMT

In article <1992Oct4.123714.14308@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> mingus@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Damballah Wedo) wrote:
> My belief that there is narrowmindedness going on here is based on the
> number of arguments in favor of a split that are variations on "I don't
> want to have to wade through articles I'm not interested in." I read
> that sentence as "My tastes are sealed in concrete, and I don't want
> anything new to enter into my consciousness." Looks like narrowmindeness
> to me.

Hey Marcel, if I recall correctly, you were on the opposite side of
the fence when rec.music.bluenote was created.  If you are not narrowminded
for wanting bluenote, why should someone else be for wanting rec.music.blues?
--
Ken Warkentyne - warkent@ltisun.epfl.ch
                 Laboratoire de Teleinformatique, EPFL, Suisse.
Xref: sparky news.groups:18448 rec.music.bluenote:7453
From: jojw@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (John J. Wood)
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.bluenote
Subject: Re: r.m.bluenote --> r.m.jazz + r.m.blues (was: rec.music.jazz)
Date: 28 Sep 92 17:02:09 GMT
Organization: University of Rochester (Rochester, NY)

Although I'm not fully convinced with the arguments on dividing
r.m.bluenote, if it divides up in r.m.jazz and r.m.bluenote, so
be it.  It certainly won't kill anyone if that takes place (like
Jason said), but if the bulk of the participants and readers
feel that a division should take place, I'll certainly accept that.:-)

One final note:  I agree, Richard, that categorization is necessary
for division of topics.  I'm sure nobody wants to discuss The
Archies here, that's for sure.*-)

Now:  who is accepting the call for votes? Please reply via email, and
thank you in advance.

(and now, I'll go back to lurking...;-)

 *-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=*
 | John J. Wood                              jojw@uhura.cc.rochester.edu  |
 *-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=*
 |			PLEASE GET WELL, JERRY!!!   			  |
 *-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=*
 | "You can't let go, 'cause you're afraid to fall,            		  |
 |  And the day may come, when you can feel it all..."			  |
 *-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=*
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: hch@oclc.org (Curtis Hunter)
Subject: RE: rec.marching.druncorps  WAS Re: newgroup
Followup-To: news.groups 
Organization: OCLC Online Computer Library Center, Inc.
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 13:30:25 GMT

In article <92275.162424KPW104@psuvm.psu.edu> <KPW104@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
>     I would like to propose a new group entitled:
>
>                      alt.boa.marching.bands
>
>     The purpose of this group will be for the ex-participants or
>     even current participants to discuss the new happenings on the
>     scene of the Marching Bands of America, a national compitition
>     for the creme-de-la-creme of high school marching bands.  Many
>     of these "High School" bands top those of most colleges, including
>     the larger ones.  Most people that were involved are now shunned
>     due to the limited contact they have with their hometown band.
>     This new group would be muchly appreciated and I, and many
>     others, would be extremely thankful.
>     Again, Thanks!
>
>                                              Sincerly Yours,
>
>                                                    -Kenneth P. Wilcox
>----
>Ken Wilcox
>kpw104@psuvm
>kpw104@psuvm.psu.edu

   Kenneth,
There is currently a CFD (call for discussion) on the creation of a new 
group under the rec. heirarchy.  There is the discussion of creating a group 
for drumcorps and possibly one for bands or a misc group.  Why don't you go
back a couple of days in this group and read the thread, and if it sounds       good, join in the discussion.  


_______________________________________________________________________________
|                                                                             |
|  Curtis Hunter                      curtis@sporty.col.oh.us                 |
|  Online Computer Library Center     hch@sppy00.UUCP                         |
|  Dublin, OH                         CIS  76040,2605                         |
|  (614) 764-6325                                                             |
|_____________________________________________________________________________|
From: rshapiro@bbn.com (Richard Shapiro)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: r.m.bluenote --> r.m.jazz + r.m.blues (was: rec.music.jazz)
Date: 27 Sep 92 19:35:44 GMT
	<RSHAPIRO.92Sep26184157@kariba.bbn.com> <ja#psjb@lynx.unm.edu>
Organization: BBN, Cambridge MA
NNTP-Posting-Host: kariba.bbn.com
In-reply-to: lazlo@triton.unm.edu's message of Sun, 27 Sep 92 07:41:19 GMT

In article <ja#psjb@lynx.unm.edu> lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble) writes:
   Best for what?

Exactly what I said in the part of my posting you neglected to include:

  just a simple restructuring suggestion, which I believe will be more
  in line with the way people actually use r.m.bluenote right now: two
  groups in one, converted into two different groups.

In short: "The way people actually use r.m.bluenote right now"