From: jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond)
Subject: Re: Oxygenated Gasoline and Low MPG (super unleaded?)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 05:57:48 GMT
Organization: Dixie Communications Public Access.  The Mouth of the South.

bense@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Ron Bense) writes:

>If you want to call a guy that has attained the rank of captain a day
>laborer, be my guest.

>>Not suprising. Hourly workers have all kinds of superstitions that
>>can't be changed by any amount of fact.  When I used to work in a

>See above.

Rank means he can salute when required and a few other things unrelated
to knowing about the constituents of motor fuel.  Believe what you'd
like.  No concern to me.

>>ethers fit the category.  If you think that ANY of these fuels can
>>burn without oxygen and thus are hard to extinguish OR you believe

>Obviously I don't, would you care to check your reading comprehension
>by going over this thread again?

If you want to bring potassium permanganate into a discussion about 
motor fuels, expect to be treated like either a very uneducated 
person or an idiot or both.

>b) My car compensates for "leanness" by reading the O2 value in the
>   exhaust and regulating fuel input to the engine. This does not
>   apply.

It does not compensate at wide open throttle which is where power is
made.  Yes it will compensate and even learn the new fuel but it will
NOT compensate for the loss of power associated with WOT leanness.

>>Specific energy is almost the same for alcohol and gasoline:

>>Gasoline        2.92
>>methanol        3.08
>>Ethanol         3.00

>very good, now let's look at:

>>Heating value

>>Gasoline        42.7 MJ/kg
>>Methanol        19.9
>>Ethanol         26.8

>Heat and gas expansion are where the energy comes from. Which would 
>you rather be running your car on?

I'd personally be running Methanol, assuming I could get it at a 
specific energy equivalent price.  Specific energy is the prime
indicator of a fuel's power potential.

>>oxygen content:

>Ah, but the add-on conversions (which, from what I remember about them,
>don't cost an excessive amount) would significantly reduce pollution
>in older cars, would they not? More so than this meager reduction offered
>by the "new" gas, after you factor in how much more of it is burned.

Since I used to own a company that did propane conversions, perhaps
I can comment with a bit of specificity.  A duel fuel conversion, ie,
an IMPCO propane carburator added on top of the gasoline carb cost about
$1000 in materials and about $300-500 in installation in 1985.  
A single fuel conversion optimized to use the higher octane available
would run $700-1000 more because the heads have to be pulled and milled
and/or higher compression pistons fitted.  I
assume the price has done nothing but go up.  Propane WAS cheaper than
gas to run because it used to be cheaper than gasoline.  I used to
pay 60-65 cents a gallon and retailed it at 75-85 cents a gallon plus
tax which was 20 cents back then.  That compared favorably to the 
$1.20 a gallon for gas back then.  Last bulk load of propane I bought
for my cabin was 1.20 a gallon.  No bargain.  As far as emissions,
the only thing propane brings to the table is a reduction in HC 
emissions and to a less extent, CO emissions due to there being no
liquid fuel involved.  

As to the economics of conversion for emission purposes, for the 
$1500-2000 involved, I can install a port fuel injection system and
cat converter, meet modern emission standards for everything except
evaporative emissions and still be able to fill up at the corner
station.  For about $600 I can install an aftermarket cat converter
and closed loop air bleed system that makes even an carburated
engine meet emission standards.  No bargains for propane there.
The only real bargains for propane involve situations where one
can buy propane in bulk and it will be used off-road so road tax
can be avoided.  That's why you find it in fork lifts and yard
trucks and not much on the road.

John
-- 
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