From: miles@ms.uky.edu (Stephen D. Grant)
Subject: Re: What is United States of America like?
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1992 06:15:31 GMT
Organization: University of Kentucky, USA. -5 GMT

pdchapin@unix.amherst.edu (PAUL D CHAPIN) writes:

>Jyrki Kuoppala (jkp@cs.HUT.FI) wrote:

>: I hear reports of U.S. government agencies kidnapping people in
>: foreign countries, against those countries laws.
>: 
      I would sadly have to say, true. But not all of us like it.

>: I hear reports of U.S. government hitting on a ship on international
>: waters for transporting a drug illegal in USA, while the ship was not
>: coming from USA, was not going to USA, and had no anything else to do
>: with USA.

     Wouldn't surprise me a bit. The War On Drugs claims many more
     American casualties, I assure you.

>: I hear reports of U.S. military invading Panama to get Noriega, in
>: violation of international treaties and all concepts of jurisdictions.
>: 
     Again, sadly this is true. Blame Bush, he's gone.

>: I hear reports of the U.S. military going to Somalia, then declaring a
>: prohibition on the Somalian's drug of choice, khat, while the
>: Somalians are worried that the U.S. drug of choice, alcohol (which
>: they report is brought to Somalia by the U.S. troops in great
>: amounts), will cause much more trouble and health hazards in Somalia
>: than khat does.  The Somalians believe that alcohol is more dangerous
>: a drug than khat, and from everything I've heard it seems they're
>: probably right.

     I agree. However, I haven't heard of a policy to confiscate or control
     the Somalians khat. I doubt that troops are importing large amounts of
     alcohol into the country. But I'm sure our government would encourage
     the Somalian people to buy American liquor and drink it. They glorify
     alcohol in the US while treating marijuana like a dangerous narcotic.

>I believe, but am not sure, that the US has stated that it's not going to
>get into the drug enforcement business in Somalia.  And given the problems of
>getting supplies into Somalia, I can't believe that the US is wasting time 
>bringing in large amount of alcohol.  And they sure aren't going to give it
>to the locals.
>: 
>: I hear speeches by the U.S. president chanting things like "One nation
>: under God", "May God bless our troops", "The greatest nation on Earth".
>: 
      This is true. We don't force you to believe in God though. You do
      have religious freedom, even though Christianity is embeded in the
      "system".

>So what?  Pompous perhaps, but not very important.  The first two are natural
>if you believe in God.  The last is matter of debate.

>: I hear reports of a war being declared and fought in USA - a war
>: against "drugs", with the Bill of Rights being the major casualty.
>: 
>Bullshit.  The Bill of Rights is alive and well.  There are individual
>cases of overzealous enforcement, but the courts usually strike them down.

      Bullshit! Our Rights are under constant attack. The Second, Fourth
      and Ninth seem to be in trouble. The War on Drugs truly has been a
      War on the Constitution. Some people are serving mandatory 20-year
      prison terms for marijuana crimes while the average term served for
      each murder committed was 1.8 years! The average term for convicted
      murderers is < 7 years in prison. 
      The courtse are more likely to side with the government, period.
      I cherish the freedom we have here, but fear it is diminishing.
      Maybe Clinton will change this. Although he has no respect for the      
      Second Amendment apparently.

>: I hear plans for "boot camps" with "training" for the drug, ie.
>: political, criminals.

>They're called prisons.  The "boot camp" model is a more active approach than
>the typical, "let them rot" approach.  If given a choice, I would opt for
>the new approach.  And were do you get this "political" crap.  
>: 
>: I hear statistics saying that U.S. of A. has the biggest percentage of
>: people in jail, and more blacks in jail per population than South
>: Africa, and that most (much over 50 percent I think) are there for
>: non-violent drug crime, ie. are essentially political prisoners.
>: 
>Wrong.  Most states are now in the position of letting out most non-violent
>criminals for lack of space.  (Yes we do have an enormous prison population,

      Bullshit.

>but we also have one of the highest crime rates.  Black are disproportionately
>represented in prison, but they are also disproportionately represented among
>victims of crimes.  Blacks preying on blacks is a serious problem in this 
>country.  Why the crime problem is so great is a long discussion.)
>And non-violent crime is not the same a political crime.  C. Keating is going 
>to prison for defrauding thousands of old people out of their savings.  He's
>typical, it extreme, example of a non-violent criminal who deserved to rot
>in prison for a good long while. Find me somebody who
>can be shown to be in prison for strictly political reasons.  I don't count 
>those people who commit crimes for "political" motivations.  A theft or a 
>murder is still a crime no matter what your reason.

>: I see a president candidate whose major agenda is "change" getting a
>: very big percentage of the vote taking into consideration he wasn't
>: from the demopublican party.  Go check what the situation was in Germany.

>Is there a point to this? Perot was, is, and will be, irrelevent.  People
>just didn't like Clinton or Bush very much, but the party structure of this
>country is still intact, whether we like it or not. In 1996 you'll see us
>back to the old, boring, two parties.

>: I see people talking about a "moral imperative" for the U.S.
>: government to be "world police".

>An unfortunate reaction common to people with power.  It comes and goes 
>depending on how successful the last action was.  Gulf War went well so
>we're on a temporary activist binge.  Vietnam ended the last such period. I
>fear that Bosnia will end this one.  You also wouldn't see much of that
>kind of talk from the Clinton administration.
>: 
>: I see the U.S. vice president saying "No I don't know that atheists
>: should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered
>: patriots. This is one nation under God."  This during his campaign,
>: and he is later elected president.

>A comment almost no one here ever heard of.  He is also about to become
>a former President.
>: 
>: I'll let you be the judge of what these events mean.  But these things
>: do worry me.

>I don't think they mean much of anything.  Except that the world can't quite
>make up it's mind what to think of us.  We're the incarnation of evil until
>somebody needs us.  It's amusing how the world yells at us for foreign
>involvement, but when it's their ass that's in danger they're more than
>willing to have us play policemen.
>: