From: casper@vxcrna.cern.ch (CASPER,DAVI./PPE)
Subject: Re: Social perquisites of non-slaveholding whites
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: European Organization for Nuclear Research, CERN
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 16:17:00 GMT

In article <1992Aug28.132504.3638@cco.caltech.edu>, morphy@cco.caltech.edu (Jones Maxime Murphy) writes...
>casper@vxcrna.cern.ch (CASPER,DAVI./PPE) writes:

>>Well, we went almost a day without hearing from Mr. Murphy.  I thought for a
>>moment the economic recovery was finally underway, and the investment bankers
>>had gotten back to gouging the third world for interest money on their food
>>and medicine.

>Nah, and miss trashing you clueless dodos? No way, even raking in the millions
>can wait...

Listen dudesicle, while you're counting beans all day, I'm studying the
fundamental forces of the universe here.  And since I get paid in Swiss Francs, 
probably taking more to the bank on Friday too (at least for the moment) - get
the picture Holmes?

>>Putdowns indeed seem to be more your forte than reasoned argumentation, that
>>much is clear.  "As water to a fish and air to a bird, so is contempt to the
>>contemptible." - Blake
> 
>You're the expert on contemptibility. I defer to you, sir.*Sweeping bow*

Gee, this is pretty weak Murphy.  I blast you and the best you can do is
"same to you buddy"?

>>>I'm not sure. I guess it's the pure sadistic pleasure of doing intellectual
>>>battle with unarmed opponents.
> 
>>I see.  Your contempt for us is equalled only by your own glowing opinion of
>>yourself.  Did it ever seem odd to you that no one else seems to share it?
> 
>Hey, the pretty white lady sitting next to me says you're dead wrong, sucker.

Guess we have to take your word for that one.  You've already shown us you
have an overactive imagination; are you sure your fantasies aren't getting the
better of you?

>>True, your knowledge of English is (barely) better than your knowledge of
>>history.  At least you don't make up words as often as you make up facts.
> 
>Chill, homes. My knowledge of English (vastly) exceeds yours.

How shall we test this?  SAT scores? (naw, all contrived as part of the white
conspiracy)  Writing awards?  (naw, all the ones I've won were probably just
because of colonialism and slavery).  I guess the last one standing wins.

Does it occur to you that the more you have to insist how brilliant and
articulate you are, the more it actually convinces people otherwise?

>>No you need me to put *sensible* words in your mouth.  What you said was that
>>you were going to "straighten us out".  That sounds like using verbal coercion
>>and brow-beating to me.
> 
>No, actually. It sounds like I'm going to straighten you out, just like I said.

Wow.  I blasted you again, and this time, you just stood there and took it.  I
think you're headed for the canvas face first, champ.

>>Nice try.  So now you admit that you are pushing an ideology and worrying about 
>>the truth later.  Now you are just accusing me of the same.
> 
>>Look, your statement above would be roughly analogous to the following one:
> 
>>Exposure to the white man's culture and society (one of the benefits of slavery 
>>and colonialism, for which blacks should be grateful) have been the fundamental
>>catalyst for everything achieved by Africans subsequently.
> 
>Yes, they have. Chaos, starvation, misery, all due to the centuries of military
>occupation by the plundering Europeans. For once, you're right, if
>unintentionally.

Wow, so Africans have achieved nothing positive since colonialism.  I mean, at
least they produced _you_, right?

Of course, all the suffering and misery in Africa couldn't have anything to do
with adopting cockamamie Marxist ideology and economic policy, tinpot despots
living in palaces with fleets of Rolls Royces parked outside, endless tribal
warfare and ethnic animosity, and massive military spending.  No, it was all the
Europeans' fault. 

>>OK.  Please define:
> 
>>1) Colonialism.  Try to differentiate it from wars of conquest and pillage which
>>have been practiced all over the world since the beginning of recorded history.
> 
>Why should I? It's no different! It's the same barbaric activity, except it's 
>now being practiced by "democracies" which believe in "equality" and share
>"Enlightenment" values. NOT!

>You're trying to snare me an a semantic web. You're terribly out of your league,
>old chap.

Bad news, old chap.  You already fell in.  If it's no different, why is it
special?  

>>3) Western Europe.  Does this include nations like Switzerland, Sweden, Poland, 
>>etc. who did not amass overseas colonies?  Does it include the Slavs and Greeks 
> 
>Sweden did have overseas colonies.

.. he says, ignoring the others like Switzerland and Germany who did not.
Sweden never colonized Africa or the Americas.  Maybe you mean the Vikings.

>>Does it include the Italian merchant cities who were mainly involved with
>>Mediterranean trade and already quite well off?  Does it include Spain and
>>Portugal who were driven into obscurity by their empires?
> 
>Spain and Portugal were vastly enriched by the empires! They were fearsome
>economic and military powers in their brutal heyday. Their collapse was due to
>incompetent economic policies, not to "their empires".

..he says, ignoring the question about Italy.  Gee at least he acknowledges
(implicitly) for the first time that there is more to history than African
slavery.

>>4) Everything Western Europe achieved.  Is there any achievement which you feel
>>could have been made even in the absence of colonialism and slavery?  If not,
>>had the Europeans not practiced colonialism, would modern medicine, agricultural
>>techniques, etc. which have materially improved conditions around the world
>>not have been invented?
> 
>That's unlikely, to say the least. The massive accumulation of wealth resulting
>from vast crimes was a tremendous contributing factor, to say the least.

"to say the least" ... "to say the least".  You got a stutter or something
Shakespeare?

Again, though, a victory.  You acknowledge that maybe, just maybe, the history
and achievements of half a continent can't be summed up in one sentence.  I'm
finally straightening you out.

>It is also far from clear how much of modern medicine and agriculture were in
>fact invented by Europeans.

Yes, I suppose it is hard to say whether it was, oh 85% or 90% instead.

>It is much clearer that Europeans appropriated the fruit of other people's
>work, including their inventions.

Yeah, and the Russians invented the automobile too.  Reality-check time dude.

>>Oh I see.  Since you think this group exists purely for your enjoyment, maybe
>>we should change its name to alt.gratification.self.jones.murphy
> 
>Wow. A group devoted to my masturbation techniques.

Actually, quite an apt analogy for your postings.  Here, at least, you score a
point in verbal skills.

>>You know Jones, from your attitude, you probably would have made a good slave
>>merchant.  I'm glad to see from your .sig that at least you've found the next
>>closest thing...
> 
>...Well, I'm a worthy descendant of slave merchants. And I think I've found my
>first cargo. C'mere, Dave baby...

Maybe it wouldn't be so bad...at least that way all my problems would be
somebody else's fault, right?



Dave Casper		"You mess wit me, right here'll be your resting place."
CERN - Geneva			- Ice T, "Bowels of the Devil"
casper@vxcrna.cern.ch

Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa