From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Subject: Re: Ignorance is *NOT* bliss! Thanks so much Ismet.
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 04:10:09 GMT

sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic) writes:

>> You won't needed. He's gone.

>Did you think that the criminal members of the ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and 
>Revisionism Triangle would get away with their crimes? Not a chance.


>#<1993Jan3.113544.2334@news.columbia.edu>
>#vd8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Vedat  Dogan)

>In article <1993Jan2.195724.24591@urartu.sdpa.org> dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) writes:
>>In article <1993Jan2.113733.1651@news.columbia.edu> vd8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu 
>>(Vedat  Dogan) responded to article <1992Dec31.191413.9962@urartu.sdpa.org>  
>>dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian) and wrote:
>>
>>[DD] (Vedat  Dogan) wrote:
>>
>>[VD]  you are humiliated on this matter because you were not aware that 
>>[VD]  I had already taken the words from the same book and same paragrapf 
>>[VD]  you 'quoted' when you were 'advising' me to get this book.. 
>>
>>Total Bull! I have no idea what you are taking about. Below I have enclosed 
>>the entire page that is easily verified by anybody wishing to take the time 
>>to. I have no idea what paragraph you quoted from, but it certainly was not 
>>in the paragraph I refer to.
> 
>   If you read the below you will find out..You will find out that it
>  is certainly from the same page and same paragraph..then you will have a
>  good idea what I am talking about..
> 
>>
>>[VD]  My point is still here:
>>[VD]          YOU didn't quote exactly and completely?..
>>[VD] 
>>[VD]  will you correct it?
>>[VD]          
>>[VD]  If not, the 'quotation' below
>>[VD] 
>>[VD]       "...the terrible holocaust of 1915, when an unknown number
>>[VD]        of Turks perished."
>>[VD]  
>>[VD]  will stand here... 
>> 
>>You have an unfortunate view of the world and its documentation.
> 
>  don't rush..please be patient to see how reality will show up ..
> 
>>
>>And I will repeat my claim:
>>
>>The point of all this, sir, is that Bernard Lewis never said Armenians killed 
>>2.5 million of anything. Turkish Genocide Apology has posted many times on 
>>UseNet that Bernard Lewis did state such revisionism of history. You have 
>>failed to show that Bernard Lewis stated that Armenian killed 2.5 million 
>>anything. Thus, we have both demonstrated that the posting of the Cosar-Argic-
>>Mutlu revisionist machine are libelous and fraudulent. 
>> 
>>
>>[VD] 'an unknown number of turks perished', which Bernard Lewis states in his 
>>[VD] book, does not contradict any number claimed by the other turkish 
>>[VD] netters..
>>[VD] 
>>[VD]  They used his book as a source for an event in which an unknown number
>>[VD]  of turks were killed by armenians, not for the numbers..
>>[VD]  For the numbers, there are other sources they use.. 
>>[VD] 
>>[VD]  Please prove your claim that they quoted from B.Lewis' book in their 
>>[VD] article for the NUMBER of Turks (2.5 million) killed by armenians...
>>
>>What a weasel! I never said there was a quote by the revisionist you are
>>attempting to join forces with, I said Bernard Lewis was misrepresented on 
>>UseNet -- JUST AS YOU HAVE!
> 
> they never said that B.Lewis gave the NUMBER of Turks killed by armenians..
> It is just what you understand when you read -not what is written.. 
> 
>>
>>[VD]  in your proof, Mr.Davidian, use their quotations for the NUMBERS taken
>>[VD]  from B.Lewis' book, please -not from your 'guess'..
>....
>..
>>[claim] of Genocide in the 20th Century acted upon an entire people.
>>[claim] This event is incontrovertibly proven by historians, government
>>[claim] and international political leaders, such as U.S. Ambassador Mark 
>>[claim] Bristol, William Langer, Ambassador Layard, James Barton, Stanford 
>>[claim] Shaw, Arthur Chester, John Dewey, Robert Dunn, Papazian, Nalbandian, 
>>[claim] Ohanus Appressian, Jorge Blanco Villalta, General Nikolayef, General 
>>....
>>[claim] Bortnick, Halide Edip, McCarthy, W. B. Allen, Paul Muratoff and many 
>>[claim] others.
>>
>>
>>We are told that Bernard Lewis has "proven" above statement which includes the 
>>2.5 million figure. What I shall include, in the following quote is what 
>>Bernard Lewis stated on the subject, which is not what the above claim states
>>he has "proved".
> 
> as I said -not from your guess please..I know you don't want to understand 
> what I mean, but I will try one more time...In the list above there are
> plenty of the sources..There is no need for every book or author to give
> explicitly any number..Some book includes only events, some of them details,
> the others numbers etc..
> clear enough..
> 
>>
>>The following is the entire page, where the quote in question is found in the
>>Second Edition of Bernard Lewis's _The Emergence of Modern Turkey_, 1968,
>>Oxford University Press, London, Oxford, New York, page 356, for it is easier 
>>to find and verify than the 1961 First Edition. The entire page is as follows:
> 
> 
>  let's see..
> 
>>
>>---------------------------- start lewis.quo -------------------------
>>
>>"356          The Emergence of Modern Turkey
>>
>>Christian and Imperial principles enabled the powers of Europe to intervene on
>>their behalf, supporting their claims both to citizenship and to secession. In 
>...
>....
>>
>>For the Turks, the Armenian movement was the deadliest of all threats. From 
>>the conquered lands of the Serbs, Bulgars, Albanians, and Greeks, they could, 
>>however reluctantly, withdraw, abandoning distant provinces and bringing the 
>>Imperial frontier nearer home. But the Armenians, stretching across Turkey-in-
>>Asia from the Caucasian frontier to the Mediterranean coast, lay in the very
>>heart of the Turkish homeland--and to renounce these lands would have meant 
>>not the truncation, but the dissolution of the Turkish state. Turkish and 
>>Armenian villages, inextricably mixed, had for centuries lived in neighbourly 
>>association. Now a desperate struggle between them began a struggle between 
>              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^                        
>>two nations for the possession of a single homeland, that ended with the 
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>terrible holocaust of 1915 when a million and half Armenians perished.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
>   now let's see what is missing here..
> 
>   From the same source(The emergence of Modern Turkey), the same page(356),
>   the same edition(2nd), and from the same paragraph..
> 
>    "Now a desperate struggle between them began a struggle between 
>     two nations for the possession of a single homeland, that ended with the
>     terrible holocaust of 1915, when, according to some estimates, up to
>                                       ***************************  ******
>     a million and half Armenians perished,as well as an unkown number of
>                                           ******************************
>     Turks."
>     ******
> 
>  
> In your quotation:
>  
>  what happened to the underlined words with ( ******* ), Mr.Davidian...
> 
>  what happened to the"according to some estimates"?
>  what happened to the "up to"?
>  what happened to the "as well as an unknown number of Turks"?
>  
>  Now, do you understand why you were(are) humiliated?..Now, do you know
>  what I am talking about?
>  
>  I am still asking Mr.Davidian..Will you correct your 'quotation'..
> 
> 
>>.......
>>..........
>>nationalism, the older idea that Muslim"
>>
>>----------------------------------- lewis.quo ------------------------------
>>
>>Hmm...just where is your quote, in the same paragraph as ...1915... regarding
>>an "unknown number of Turks"! You sir would not only be thrown off of a 
>>debating team but most likely would be banned from further competition!
>>
> 
>  Oooo really..If anyone who does not have the book and wants to check it from
> the book they may go to library or to the Barnes & Noble bookstores 
> to buy it..
> (the Emergence of Modern Turkey,Bernard Lewis,page 356,2nd ed.,1968,
>  Oxford Unv. Press)

> You will see how David Davidian twists the facts.. 

>>
>>-- 
>>David Davidian <dbd@urartu.sdpa.org> |"The massacres? Oh well! They merely  
>>S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies | amuse me!"  -Talaat Pasha, architect of 
>>P.O. Box 382761                      | Turkish the genocide of Armenian people. 
>>Cambridge, MA 02238                  | (Four Years Beneath the Crescent, p 208) 
> 
> 
>  herkese mutlu bir yil dilegi ile..
>  
>  Saygilarimla, 
>  ismet
> 
>                    Cagdas, laik ve guclu bir Turkiye..
>Serdar Argic

>                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
>                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
>                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
>                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
>                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

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