From: ttran@cv3000.Prime.COM (T. Tran)
Subject: CALL FOR A DIALOGUE/Reply KVT3
Originator: daemon@media-lab.media.mit.edu
Reply-To: @relay.prime.com:ttran@cv3000.Prime.COM
Organization: SCV Relay
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 17:21:11 GMT


First, I like to thank KVT and others for the serious spirit in which
they've engaged in this dialogue. I'll reprint KVT's posting as is, with
my response preceded by "**".

From KVT's "<22726@drutx.ATT.COM>":


For sake of brevity, I summarize below a (main) point made by T. Tran that
I think most important to clarify. (T. Tran, if the wording does not reflect 
your actual view, please correct.) As a good start, we seem to agree that:

Any force that depends SOLELY on any foreign power for its existence cannot 
do any good for our people.

However, T. Tran seems to insist that:

The matters inside Viet Nam should be left to the inside people. If the
regime is bad and repressive but the inside people cannot do anything, so be 
it. We, overseas Vietnamese, doing ANYTHING to from outside to pressure the 
regime to change will risk the label "collaborators" in a foreign
intervention. National independence is more important than anything else, 
including the welfare of the people.

**  I think this explains why my approach would differ: For to me it's
**  an absolute fallacy to say that "the inside people cannot do anything"
**  This is, I believe, seriously mistaken, both in terms of the reality
**  of the situation and the long-term implications.
**
**  1/ The reality of the situation:
**     There is in VN right now a quiet and steadily growing effort by
**     a lot of people to open up the regime, allowing more and more
**     freedom in all areas of national life. A few examples:
**     a/ The right to found a PRIVATE university
**        (This has a lot of long-term implication in terms of freeing
**         the education system from government's control altogether.)
**     b/ The activism of NHO'M "TUO^?I TRE~", organ of the HCM city 
**        league of revolutionary youth.
**        Tuoi Tre is and continues to be one of the most forward looking, 
**        progressive periodical in VN. Thanks to its crusade earlier,
**        students now can receive scholarships without having to depend
**        on "ly li.ch" -- a major turning point in educational policy.
**     c/ Look at the Literary Prizes of the last two years:
**        THOI XA VANG : a serious and engrossing tale of the triumph and
**                       travails of a NVN soldier and party member from 
**                       childhood to after 1975. It's a critical re-evaluation
**                       of socialist doctrines, raising some fundamental,
**                       and, to the traditionalists, extremely troubling
**                       questions about what happened in the past.

          THAN PHAN TINH YEU (or NOI BUON CHIEN TRANH):
**                       A realistic account of the VN war seen through the
**                       eyes of a NVNese soldier. In that you will find
**                       not just herioism but also desertion, despair, 
**                       and anguish.
**     d/ The growing power of the press:
                         People now can go to the press to complain of 
**                       injustice and corruption. A minister in the 
**                       government was removed because of an investigation
**                       by a publication based upon the info provided by
**                       a whistle blower. 
**                       
**     e/ The efforts of many intellectuals/scientists  -- The names well-
**                       known to us, to mention a few, are: Phan Dinh Dieu,
**                       Nguyen Ngoc, Duong Thu Huong, Nguyen Huy Thiep, 
**                       Pham Thi Hoai, and MANY, MANY others, etc.
**                       
**      If you have a chance to talk with these forward-looking people in
**      VN, you will find out TO YOUR SURPRISE that most of the issues
**      we overseas VNese are concerned about  have been discussed among
**      them for YEARS AND YEARS. But, before, because of the need to
**      unite everyone to secure independence, everyone agreed to put them
**      aside.
**      The sad fact is that we overseas VNese think we know communism,
**      but MOST OF US really don't ! We only know one aspect of communism,
**      the one that we abhored. But we don't know the full story - what
**      makes communism the way it is in VN. It's only THOSE who have 
**      lived with it ALL THEIR LIVES that REALLY KNOW HOW TO deal with
**      it, and OPEN A NEW CHAPTER in VNese history. 
**
**      If we can't afford to spend the time to understand the history of
**      VN, then at least we should show some humility !
**
**      If you trace the origin of the entire native admistrative class
**      the French had BUILT UP over a hundred years, which then became 
**      the backbone of the Saigon government, which also came to 
**      constitute quite a large number in the Vietnamese community, you
**      can see how most of the info re: what happens in VN is far from
**      a complete picture.
**
**      If we want to deal effectively with the Communists, we better know
**      damn well who we are.

**
**  2/ Long-term Implications
**
**      The most serious flaw of this view to me, however, is by making
**      this unbelievably gratuitous assumption, we SET OURSELVES UP as
**      the SAVIOR of the VNese inside VN. There can nothing FURTHER from
**      the truth. (Not to be impertinent, but we save no one except our
**      own skin.)
**      The heroes in this long chapter of VNese history are THOSE who
**      REMAIN inside VN, and DESPITE the worst of circumstances, the lack
**      of resource, the poverty, the social ills as a result of 150 years
**      of continuous warfare (some of us talk about VN as if it has been
**      continuously at peace from times immemorial ! Where have they
**      been ? Comfortably cocoonned by the power and wealth of their 
**      family ?), the continuing hostility of the US and China, resulting
**      in an attempt since 1975 to strangle VN economically and 
**      diplomatically, AND YET DESPITE ALL THESE, they work quietly
**      in silence, sometimes even in hunger, to CHANGE THE COUNTRY,
**      TO BUILD A VN worthy of their dreams.
**
**      Those are the true heroes. And you would be surprised to find
**      out how many of them there are in VN. 

**      For as I said elsewhere in the posting, no one can give human
**      right and freedom to anyone: for what can be given can be taken
**      away. Human right and Freedom will only have meaning if they
**      are locally developed in VN, with local institution and tradition
**      created to ensure its efficacy through the vicissitudes of time.

**      Are we so presumptious as to assume that we KNOW WHAT THESE LOCAL
**      INSTITUTION and TRADITION should be ?  
**
**      The Best thing we oversea VNese can do, is to create a bridge
**      to those heroic souls, and stand side by side with them in this
**      noble and difficult endeavour.

**      Besides, we've to establish a list of priority: human rights
**      and freedom are important, but so is food in the people's stomach
**      and the education of the next generation.
**      Thinh N hNguyen puts it best:

[[[[[[[[
I cannot emphasize this enough but the best effort now should be raising the
standard of living and level of education of Vietnamese and freedom and 
democracy will come faster than you can imagine.
]]]]]]]]            (From : <1992Dec8.044722.16332@news.media.mit.edu>)

This contention is very strange in its intention. It says "NO MATTER HOW MUCH 
A REGIME IS REPRESSIVE AND BRUTAL TO ITS PEOPLE, AS LONG AS IT IS AN 
INDEPENDENT REGIME, LEAVE IT ALONE. ANY OUTSIDE PRESSURE IS FOREIGN 
INTERVENTION THAT SHOULD BE CONDEMNED." This thinking defies the reality of 
international relations. It denies the world's humanity and compassion in the 
name of national independence. And most of all, it justifies repression in
the name of national independence.

We can see that this contention cannot make sense in a number of examples: 

For Viet Nam in particular, Amnesty International has been trying to interfere 
in the behalf of a number of Vietnamese dissidents. It condemns Viet Nam as 
one of the most repressive country in the world. By the above definition,
this is a foreign intervention. However, in reality, it's just a pressure of
conscience from outside upon the regime.

In South Africa, the economic sanctions from the U.S. and other countries
caused the government to release Mandela and give up apathy. This is clearly
a foreign intervention but it is for a cause that transpires the national
boundary. It's about race.

In Yugoslavia, the UN pressures the government with economic sanctions and
blockage to induce cease-fire. This is a foreign intervention but it's done
because the world cannot stand by while the government kills its people
based on ethics and religion, even it does it within its national boundary. 

In Israel, the government pressures Germany with relation problems if the
Germany government doesn't crack down on neo-Nazi. This is a foreign 
intervention in Germany's internal problems. Germany can use the claim of
"independent government" to do whatever it wants to neo-Nazi. However, the
Israel is worried enough for the Jewish people (not its citizen) to speak out.
And because of international relation, Germany has to do something to satisfy
Israel's demand.

All of these examples speak out that we, overseas Vietnamese, while not trying
to be the MAIN force to change the situation inside Viet Nam, got to do all
we can to help the inside people to pressure the current regime to change 
its repressive way. We, first as Vietnamese and second as freedom-loving
human beings, got to make people of the world aware that the Vietnamese people
still suffers as long as the government is still TOTALITARIAN in its nature.

Kim


**  As a matter of general principle, there seems to be nothing different
**  re: VN and the other countries KVT enumerated. THAT, I think, is where
**  the problem resides. Let me ask a few simple questions:

**  1/ Among all those countries, from South Africa, Yugoslavia to Israel,
**     is there any one that fits the following description:
**
**     Not bother to go back thousands of years ago, just 150 or so:
**
**     a/ Ruled, brutalized, exploited by Great France from 1858 to 1954
**        This Great French had successfully created WITHIN VN an entire
**        native administrative class whose interests were completely
**        IDENTIFIED with the continuing presence of French control ?
**        Note that the power of this class was considerable, for they
**        constituted all those with the most wealth, know-how, and level
**        of modern education in the country. They all spoke French, and
**        some of them could hardly speak VNese, or knew a "ddi`nh" from
**        a "mie^'u".

**     b/ Faced an occupation of half of the country by the US, with a
**        second generation of this NEW, IMPROVED, and RE-INVIGORATED
**        native administrative class, whose power had increased
**        exponentially compared to the first generation, due to the
**        greater wealth and more modern technology of the US ?
**        Some now spoke BOTH English and French, and therefore had 
**        even less time to know the difference between "ddi`nh" and
**        "mie^'u". They might even consider them peasants' superstition,
**        better replaced by more "modern" stuffs, things that they had
**        observed and deeply admired in the metropolises of Paris and 
**        Washington, DC.
**
**     c/ The abiding desire of a giant neighbor, since time immemorial,
**        to rope VN into its sphere of influence, our friend China. 

**     So, facing a history of ignonimous deeds by these superpowers,
**     the presence of a segment of the country's population who are 
**     by natural self-interests allied with those of the foreign powers,**     what do you think is the efficacy of those superpowers calling on
**     VN to respect human rights ? HAVE ANYONE of them EVER respected
**     the human rights of the VNese ? Are we calling a robber to go
**     back to the victim's house to lecture them on how to behave as
**     an upright citizen ?
**
**     To be fair, why none of us demand these superpowers to pay back
**     their historical debts, to compensate for thousands and thousands
**     of VNese whose families had been mained, exterminated by their
**     policies in VN ? Why are we asking them to be OUR WHITE KNIGTHs,
**     thereby forming a de facto alliance with them ?

**     Further more, we can be the ones WHO RAISE THE ISSUES, but AS TO
**     HOW THESE ISSUES ARE USED in the superpowers' negotiation with
**     VN, we have ABSOLUTELY NO CONTROL OF !
**
**     Knowing how REAL POLITICS work, do you believe these superpowers
**     will use these issues FOR OUR BENEFITS ?

**     My response re: Polpot in my previous posting summarizes my view 
**     on this question. Let me reprint it here for the sake of completeness:

>> However, I have no doubt that the Khmer Rouge is simply a tool for
>> Chinese foreign policy (without Chinese support for arms and materials,
>> the Khmer Rouge would not be able to continue its existence.)
>> This is a case where geopolitical considerations superseded any shred
>> of human decency whatsoever. Out of a population of about five millions,
>> they killed two milions of their best people - the entire educated class,                                                          
>> a calamity of an unbelieveably tragic proportion. But China, with US's
>> tacit support, is forcing that murderous band down the throat of the
>> Cambodian people.  
>>
>> Earlier, China planned to convert Cambodia into a Tibet of Indochina.
>> With two millions killed -- including practically every Cambodian that
>> could help run a modern Cambodia, and the enormous influx of Chinese
>> advisers and settlers, a` la Tibet, Cambodia would have turned into a
>> a perennial "brother" country of China, indeed a de facto province of
>> China. Then with Chinese pressure from the North, Cambodian pressure
>> from the west, China would be able to bring VN to its knees, creating
>> a fait accompli Chinese sphere of influence in the South.
 
>> That was one of the major reasons for China's decision to "teach VN a
>> lesson", sending multiple divisions down the plains of NVN, along the
>> traditional routes of attacks in early centuries.
>> For VN's unexpected campaign to overthrow the murderous Polpot's regime,
>> which at the time was attacking villages along the border of SVN, demanding
>> the return of VN's islands back to Cambodia, put a sudden end to China's
>> dream of dominating Southeast Asia, which was tantalizingly within reach.

>> Why was that, with the coordination of both China and the US, VN was
>> pilloried in the forum of world opinion as a despicable agressor,
>> and China as the defender of the rights of the Cambodian people ?
>> Do the superpowers of the world have any shame ?

>> What lonely voices in the world condemned this brutal modern Hitler
>> regime - the band of Polpot ? Why are Polpot and his cohorts being
>> welcomed, even now, as leaders of a sovereign government in China ?
>> Why are the United Nations allowed to supply two camps for Cambodian
>> refugees on the border of Thailand controlled by the Khmer Rouge ?
>> Why is the Polpot gang of murderers given an equal footing with Sihanook                                                           
>> and others in the current UN-sponsored plan for Cambodia ?
 
>> Has the world any decency left ?
 
>> Do we, Vietnamese, still dream of relying on the superpowers of the
>> world to "help" us on the issue of human rights and others ?
>> Dare we look at these brutal facts to ask ourselves the question :
>> Do the superpowers of the world REALLY care for OUR interests, or
>> any small country's interests ?
>> Do we just make it really easy for ourselves to pursue these goals,
>> which are like motherhood and apple pies, but ignore the real
>> implication of our alliances ?

**     
**      
**     T. Tran