HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: esteward@bbseg5.isi.edu (Elaine Steward)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Why I couldn't take AA & why I bother to complain about it
Date: 28 Sep 92 19:50:50 GMT

In article <96741@bu.edu> ccmlh@buitc.bu.edu (Mark Hayes) writes:
> Folks,
               *** a lot of stuff deleted ***
> Sawyer concludes with "I suppose I fit into the category of a Big-
> BookThumping, Step-Nazi, old-school, hard-line AA but then ... I'm 
> sober today and that's what counts". To which I can only reply, that 
> may be all that counts to you, but your sobriety doesn't count that 
> much for *me* and others like me when *we're* seeking help and 
> wind up feeling excluded by unacceptable religious doctrines.
> 
> / Mark Hayes

This sort of anger and resentment at certain AA members' personal god has  
always confused the hell out of me!  I came into both of my *.A programs  
an athiest.  I may still be, although I no longer believe that I'm in  
control (or that I need to be).  I have a higher power, and I don't choose  
to call it anything.  If someone in a meeting wants to go on at great  
length putting forth Christian doctrine, I just figure that's what he/she  
needs to do.  I don't think it has anything to do with me.  I don't  
particularly like the Lord's Prayer, or saying it, but since saying it  
doesn't conflict with any of my other beliefs, I go along with the group.  
My confusion has to do with why other people seem to feel so uncomfortable  
with what makes other members of the group comfortable.  If someone were  
to actually try to indoctrinate me to his/her personal beliefs on a  
one-to-one level, I'd tell them to buzz off, but otherwise, I like the  
"live and let live" slogan.

elaine  
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: fullerto@mostaccioli.cis.ohio-state.edu (timothy dwight fullerton)
Subject: Re: Lords Prayer
Organization: The Ohio State University Dept. of Computer and Info. Science
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 03:42:29 GMT

In article <1992Oct5.132633.9692@ibmpa.awdpa.ibm.com> carty@vnet.ibm.com (Jeff Carty) writes:

>
>BAB, you wrote *Matthew* 6:9.  I honestly can't think of any religion with
>a chapter in its book called "Matthew" except Christianity.
>

	Actually, I, myself, get a great deal of satisfaction out of reading
the Bible because I find a lot of brilliant wisdom in it that can be applied
to my life in modern society--especially in the New Testament. I am by NO
means Christian (although I do think that the man was credited for saying some 
very cool things).

	One book that describes the Lords Prayer in great detail (that is, by
the way, a hit in AA) is _The Sermon On the Mount_ by Emmett Fox. I found it 
very helpful in detaching this wisdom, including that in the Lord's Prayer, 
from Christianity, which I find objectionable.

	Tim


Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: bpbp@sequent.com (Bob Poulsen)
Subject: Resources in Portland, Oregon
Organization: Sequent Computer Systems Inc.
Distribution: or
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 92 16:51:07 GMT

Hello, Oregon.  I've been a non-drinker for 3-1/2 years, my 'program'
being mostly self-motivation and networking with a growing number of
non-drinking friends.  I've been to 12-15 different AA meetings and
I like the idea of fellowship and support.  I *don't* like the
doctrine of constant emphasis on character flaws, and I don't like
to hear people tell their drunk stories over and over.  I live in the
Portland area -- can anyone tell me of any resources around here
for sharing experience/strength/hope that is not AA based?

Thanks,
-Bob
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: ethridge@bnr.ca (Allen Ethridge)
Subject: Re: 'Playing the Odds'
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Richardson, Tx.
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1992 17:21:10 GMT

In article <1992Oct2.143712.13765@netcom.com> enigma@netcom.com (Enigma) writes:
>In article <97348@bu.edu> ccmlh@buitc.bu.edu (Mark Hayes) writes:
>>In article <1992Oct1.153047.13158@news.eng.convex.com> schmitt@convex.com (Herb Schmitt) writes:
>>>So please dont tell me that 'one can't come to believe
>>>something by deciding to do so'. What you can do is try something that,
>>>EVEN IF IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE TO YOU, has worked for others. Then based on
>>>the results, maybe come to understand. 
>>
>>Sure, you can ACT like you believe. You can stand up and babble about
>>God until your face turns blue. But this still isn't believing. If
>>your reason AND instincts tell you that there is no God, you can
>>read on up on the subject and do a whole lot of other things, but
>>if in the end you still don't believe, there's just nothing you can
>>do about it, unless you hire a professional brainwasher (who might,
>>actually, employ techniques similar to those used by AA).
>>
>>An example I sometimes give to make this point is: were I to offer you
>>a million dollars if you could believe there was a blue kangaroo in the
>>room with us, could you do it?
>>
>
>Of course, you're assuming that there *is* no god.  I offer a counter-
>example: Prove to me that there is no blue kangaroo in the house next
>door (which is locked, curtains drawn, you have no key, etc.).
>

Wrong.  There's nothing in the text you've quoted that assumes there is no
god.  You first need to give me reason to believe that blue kangaroos even
exist, since that doesn't fit into my understanding of reality.  Note i said
reason to believe, not proof.

More to the point - if i can't get into the house, or even see into the house,
for all practical purposes it's entirely empty as it's contents can have no
effect on my life.  As a famous mathematician once said, in a different
context, God is not a necessary hypothesis.  Check out alt.atheism if you
really want to argue this - you'll find lots of people willing to correct you,
if they aren't too tired of the "prove there is no god argument" yet.  Or you
could read the alt.atheism FAQ.

Back to alt.recovery.  The AA'ers here remind me very much of the theists in
alt.atheism and other religious people i've known.  It seems that AA'ers have
a hard time questioning their basic beliefs and are unwilling to deal with
people who won't accept those beliefs unquestioningly.  I went through that
type of blind faith once in my life and it wasn't a positive experience.  To
do that again i find as frightening as going back to drinking.  Is there no
other alternative?  (Rhetorical question - i wouldn't bother reading this
group if i didn't think there was.  I'm just not sure where to find it.)


-- 
allen@well.sf.ca.us
ethridge@bnr.ca
my opinions are my own
From: bz920@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dick E. Banks)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Why I couldn't take AA & why I bother to complain about it
Date: 1 Oct 1992 05:25:54 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


Reading these posts has been extremely interesting.  Some get lost in
intelectual babling and others are right to the core.  You can find
your kind of group.  I know that I have travled to may meetings. Some
did not appeal to me at all.  Others were unforgettable experiences.
I honestly think there is probably a group out there for cross eyed,
left handed truck drivers.

If I feel that things are not to my liking ina given AA group, I move
on.  I have enough trouble taking care of myself rather than to
try and fix every little thing I see as not being right.  No matter
how people choose to slice it, AA is still the longest aftercare
support system in the world.  It works for many and many, including
myself, owe a relatively happy life because of AA.

I think it is just an absolute marvel, that you can telnet to a FREENET
and get the reafcreactions and thoughts of people from all over
the world.  Isn't it amazing.

Dick B.
--
From: pa_ross@csd.brispoly.ac.uk (Mr Rossy)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Why?
Date: 1 Oct 92 12:52:34 GMT
Organization: Bristol Polytechnic, England

In article <1992Sep29.080042.1215@sobeco.com> alawrenc@sobeco.com writes:
>In <Sep29.060152.61135@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> maxwell@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Mark Story) writes:
>
>>It doesn't seem fair.  Why do I drink?  Why can't I stop it?
>
>Because life is not fair.

Life's a shit sandwich and we've all got to take our bite

					 Paul
					=----=
From: ccmlh@buitc.bu.edu (Mark Hayes)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: 'Playing the Odds'
Date: 2 Oct 92 07:25:30 GMT
Organization: Boston University, Boston, MA, USA

In article <1992Oct1.153047.13158@news.eng.convex.com> schmitt@convex.com (Herb Schmitt) writes:
>So please dont tell me that 'one can't come to believe
>something by deciding to do so'. What you can do is try something that,
>EVEN IF IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE TO YOU, has worked for others. Then based on
>the results, maybe come to understand. 

Sure, you can ACT like you believe. You can stand up and babble about
God until your face turns blue. But this still isn't believing. If
your reason AND instincts tell you that there is no God, you can
read on up on the subject and do a whole lot of other things, but
if in the end you still don't believe, there's just nothing you can
do about it, unless you hire a professional brainwasher (who might,
actually, employ techniques similar to those used by AA).

An example I sometimes give to make this point is: were I to offer you
a million dollars if you could believe there was a blue kangaroo in the
room with us, could you do it?

Mark
From: al037@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dave Polewka)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Forest for the trees
Date: 30 Sep 1992 05:34:11 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: al037@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dave Polewka)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc10.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, maxwell@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Mark Story) says:

>I do not expect, realistically, to find the solution to my alcohol problem by
>reading this newsgroup.  To be honest, I have no idea where the solution lies.
>Should I trust AA?  RR?  Should I believe in a HP?  Should I follow the 12 
>steps?  Should I believe in God?  ..............

Go with the numbers.  More people belong to AA than any other
group.  And theists outnumber atheists by magnitudes.
Play the odds.


-- 
=======================
"Endeavor to persevere"
=======================
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: mbs@odaat.lkg.dec.com (Mark Sawyer)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Why I couldn't take AA & why I bother to complain about it
Date: 5 Oct 92 17:05:31 GMT
Reply-To: mbs@odaat.lkg.dec.com.UUCP (Mark Sawyer)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corp., Littleton, MA, USA

In article <1992Oct3.001446.2285@ibmpa.awdpa.ibm.com> carty@vnet.ibm.com (Jeff Carty) writes:
>In  <1992Oct2.165423.7304@nntpd.lkg.dec.com>  mbs@odaat.lkg.dec.com (Mark Sawyer) writes:
>> In article <1992Oct1.004511.3545@netcom.com> enigma@netcom.com (Enigma) writes:
>> >My life is based on my Higher Power too.  But if saying the Lord's
>> >Prayer keeps even one person away from *A, I feel that it should
>> >not be said.
>>
>> The relevant A.A. Traditions as I see it are:
>>
>>     2. "For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority --
>>         a loving God as He may express Himself in our group
>>         conscience.  Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do
>>         not govern.
>>
>>     4. "Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting
>>         other groups or A.A. as a whole."
>>
>> There is nothing written or implied anywhere regarding what prayers
>> may or may not be said at A.A. meetings.  It is left up to each
>> groups "group conscience".

>The Lord's Prayer is a *SPECIFICALLY AND EXCLUSIVELY CHRISTIAN* prayer.
>I can assure you that when it is said, the Christian religion is being
>observed, whether or not people choose to be in denial about it.

    Speak for yourself, Jeff, because you do not speak for me.  I
can assure you that *I* am not observing the Christian religion when
I say the Lord's Prayer.  I was raised Protestant so I know what it
means to "observe" the Christian religion and I am anything *but* a
practicing Christian today.  It may seem that way to you but that is
not the way it is for me.

    1DAAT ... Mark
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark B. Sawyer                | Distributed Processing Engineering
Digital Equipment Corporation | EASYnet: tuxedo::m_sawyer
550 King Street (LKG2-2/Z7)   | ARPAnet: m_sawyer@tuxedo.enet.dec.com
Littleton, MA 01460-1289      | Usenet : us1rmc!tuxedo.enet.dec.com!m_sawyer
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: The views expressed herein are my own and do not necessarily
            reflect those of my employer.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: walker@Ingres.COM (Lynn Walker)
Subject: AA saved my life
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  
Keywords: none
Organization: ASK Computer Systems, Ingres Product Division
Date: 28 Sep 92 20:40:34 GMT

It distresses me a great deal to see all this fighting about who's program is
better, why AA sucks, etc. Sure, they use *God* and *Higher Power*, but nobody
*forced* me to believe in these entities. Being raised a Catholic, I rebelled
early on against organized religion. When I came to AA five years ago, all I
wanted was sobriety, and the support AA offered me. I didn't *run* when I heard
the word God.

I'm sorry that certain individuals have not found AA to be for them. So be it.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But I felt the need to emphasize
how AA has changed my life. I admit that there are certain aspects of the
program that I don't agree with (saying the Lord's Prayer at the end, for one),
but on the whole AA has helped me to admit my powerlessness over alcohol, given
me back my self-esteem (I had none) and helped me find a reason to live. I can
now say I that I enjoy life today, and am rid of the suicidal depressions that
I lived with for many years. At the same time, I'm still going to experience
pain and disappointment. Just because I'm sober doesn't mean that life becomes
perfect. If everything was happy and joyous, I would have no reason to better
myself, or excel.

The one thing I do know is that I couldn't stop drinking on my own. I needed the
support that AA gave, and still gives me. There are other 12-Step programs that
I qualify for. As we spend more time in AA, we learn more about ourselves, and
the presence of other addictions. I encourage anyone to explore other avenues of
recovery, such as outside therapy. "The point is that we were willing to grow
along spiritual lines" says Chapter Five (BB). The concept of a Higher Power
works for me because of my obsessive/controlling personality. I had to realize
that people would not behave the way I wanted them to, and that events were not
going to have the outcome that I expected. I had to let go of the reins.

When I first came into the program, my Higher Power was my AA group. Later, I
started to feel comfortable with *HP*, or "The Force*. WHATEVER gets you out of
yourself, will work. I also realize that the person most responsible for my
recovery is ME.

			-- Lynn --

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
	Lynn Walker		Toronto, Canada		walker@ingres.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     "Nature, Mr. Allnut, is what we are put into this world to rise above"
From: alawrenc@sobeco.com (a.lawrence)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: 'Playing the Odds'
Date: 3 Oct 92 00:46:38 GMT
Reply-To: alawrenc@sobeco.com
Organization: Lawrence & Assc.

In <97348@bu.edu> ccmlh@buitc.bu.edu (Mark Hayes) writes:

>Sure, you can ACT like you believe. You can stand up and babble about
>God until your face turns blue. But this still isn't believing. If
>your reason AND instincts tell you that there is no God, you can
>read on up on the subject and do a whole lot of other things, but
>if in the end you still don't believe, there's just nothing you can
>do about it, unless you hire a professional brainwasher (who might,
>actually, employ techniques similar to those used by AA).

>An example I sometimes give to make this point is: were I to offer you
>a million dollars if you could believe there was a blue kangaroo in the
>room with us, could you do it?

No, but I can beleive that such a beast can exist.  I am very willing
to take a walk with you so that you might show it to me.

You are very right when you say that to talk about God, read about God,
think about God and rationalize about God don't work.  They never have
and probably never will.  God, atleast to my limited understanding,
stretches far beyond my capabilities of reason and comprehension.
The only way to know the truth about God, any God, is to say "well,
maybe ..." and give yourself the chance to experience God.

I had a girl friend a few years back who's first experience with God
was "OK God, if you exist... Give me a parking spot."  It sounds stupid
and insane, but for the two years we went out together, every Friday
night she would drive downtown and park less thant a block from her
destination, without going round in circles. 

I suggest to everyone who has difficulty believing to try it.  Make a
deal with God.  What have you got to lose by trying.  You may feel a
little foolish, but then again you may get what you asked for.  The
only caveat is be careful what you ask for, more than once if told
God, "I know I asked for it, but why did you have to give it to me!"
-- 
If any given program runs correctly, it is obsolete.
=========================================================================
Andrew Lawrence, Informaticien Conseil           |  alawrenc@sobeco.com
3605 St-Urbain, #1605                            |  uunet!sobeco!alawrenc
From: maxwell@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Mark Story)
Subject: Why?
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 06:01:52 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO  80523

It doesn't seem fair.  Why do I drink?  Why can't I stop it?
From: esteward@bbseg5.isi.edu (Elaine Steward)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Lets Have A Mail Meating
Date: 1 Oct 92 19:43:25 GMT

In article <199209301817.AA08679@potlatch.cs.uidaho.edu>  
weiss872@POTLATCH.CS.UIDAHO.EDU (Phil Weiss) writes:

> What I can tell you is that I have found the fourth dimension of
> existence.  That isn't so flaky as it sounds.  All it means is that
> I am radically different from anything I expected or used to be
> like.  It's like a person who existed in a 2-dimensional piece
> of paper.  If you were to set a Coke can down beside the paper, all
> the 2-D person would recognize would be the circle that exists
> on that piece of paper.  The whole shape and taste and feel of the
> can wouldn't be known.  I've tasted Coke.
> 
> Phil.

Thanks, Phil.  This is something I've been trying to describe for a few  
weeks now.  What I've been saying is that my life used to be two (or one)  
dimensional and now it's three dimensional.  

You said it MUCH better.

elaine
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: ebh@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Ed Horch)
Subject: Re: Why I couldn't take AA & why I bother to complain about it
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 21:21:10 GMT

In article <22494@venera.isi.edu> esteward@bbseg5.isi.edu (Elaine Steward) writes:
>My confusion has to do with why other people seem to feel so uncomfortable  
>with what makes other members of the group comfortable.

Think about it.  Haven't you ever been a minority of one?  The only X
in a room full of Y's?  When an entire group of people thinks a certain
way, eventually a negative spin will be put on not thinking that way.
It won't be a conscious thing, it'll just happen.  (Consider the change
in the collective attitude toward smoking in meetings over the last few
years, and how it's affected the average group-conscience meeting.)

AA relies heavily on empirical evidence.  Write to GSO with a question
and you'll get an answer that starts with, "The collective experience of
AA has shown..."  However, it's easy to fall into the trap of assuming
that what works for the vast majority will work for everyone.  Even the
AA service manual warns against "tyranny of the majority".  Part of the
reason that the minority view is heard after a vote is so that those
who don't understand why a few people are uncomfortable with something
that makes everyone else comfortable can hear why.

-Ed
Xref: sparky alt.recovery:3393 rec.arts.books:17728
From: crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu (Lauren L. Crawford)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery,rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Wendy Kaminer's book
Date: 6 Oct 92 15:14:02 GMT
Followup-To: alt.recovery
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <1992Oct5.230121.24536@Cadence.COM> bruceg@Cadence.COM (Bruce Gustifson) writes:
>In article <1992Sep19.113751.25674@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> sdemitri@nyx.cs.du.edu (Suzanne Lucia Demitrio) writes:
>>
>>Anyone read Wendy Kaminer's recently-published *I'm Dysfunctional,
>>You're Dysfunctional*?  It's a critique of the self-help/recovery/
>
>  I'm Disfunctional/Your Disfunctional? You have got to be kidding!
>This is straight out of Saturday Night Live. You know, this is not
>a flame, but as I type this I'm thinking that there are people in
>this group that will probably be offended by this comment. And I'm
>also thinking that alot of recovering people could stand to
>lighten up a little.

I haven't read the book yet but would like to.  I'm waiting to hear what
people thought of it first (call me a sheep, but I have a _lot_ of things
I want to read right now, so unless I hear rave reviews, I'm not going to
add anything else to the list).  

I haven't yet heard that anyone was offended by the book.  Have you all?


-- 
Lauren Crawford  //  crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu

Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: escr@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (elizabeth)
Subject: Re: Wendy Kaminer's book
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 18:28:46 GMT

crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu (Lauren L. Crawford) writes:
>>  I'm Disfunctional/Your Disfunctional? You have got to be kidding!
>>This is straight out of Saturday Night Live. You know, this is not
>>a flame, but as I type this I'm thinking that there are people in
>>this group that will probably be offended by this comment. And I'm
>>also thinking that alot of recovering people could stand to
>>lighten up a little.

This is a really funny comment, considering how Kaminer's book is
all about how the "recovering people could stand to lighten up a little" :)

Anyway, I found this book to be extremely interesting and very insightful.
Her book centers around teh idea that as a society we are getting caught up 
in this recovery movement that tells us that we are all victims. Kaminer
explores how this attitude may be reflected in our society, such as the 
issue of responsibilty etc.  Kaminer went to many self help AA type groups
and workshops
to do research for this book ans was disturbed by how people would sometimes
pay these large sums of money to be told what to do and how to feel by 
people with little or no qualifications and would never question what
they were being told. Kaminer relates that when she would stand up and attempt
to ask questions about teh process she would be told that she was "in denial"

This book really influenced me a lot as a professional (I'm studying to 
be a social worker). I've always wondered about the effects of these groups
on society since they began to be used for every little adjustment problem.
I really believe that when you make everything something that needs 
"recovery" from that you make the real problems: alcoholism, drug addiction,
sexual abuse etc have somewhat less of an impact.  As Kaminer says, when 
everything is tragic, nothing is...(or something to that effect) You
can really see this principle at work when she compares some of these groups
to a support group for survivors of the Khimer Rouge massacres, it's a 
very moving chapter...

Anyway, enough babbling...:) Read this book, even if you don't think you
may approve of what she says (by the way she never says that these groups
don't help anyone, she's more remarking on the societal effects..) It's
good to get different points of view once in a while and you may be 
surprised by what she has to say. At the very least it's an interesting
viewpoint...

Enjoy!
Elizabeth Ruby