From: kkenny@gems.vcu.edu (Karen Kenny aka Mel)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Liberty (was something relevant about CO-2 long ago...)
Date: 23 Dec 92 10:25:28 -0400
Organization: Medical College of Virginia

Alan-

Having assembled _all_ of your postings in this thread,
in chronological order so that I could follow at least
"timewise" the meanderings of your postings in this thread,
that started off with your early comment "Alan[...] perks
up at a sign of literate discussion about to commence"
and lately has become simple taunts and personal attacks
on your part[and "satorize" - hardly "literate"], I will
take you up on the following:

>Because sure as hell you didn't critique the contents
>of what I said.  Neither did Melinda, and neither did Mara.

From what I have seen, you ignored several worthwhile
'critiques' of your words, _first_ by Melinda[but you got
too hissy at her last paragraph and ignored all that
came before], then by Mara, then by Jess and myself, and
chose instead to respond to the comments of Ry and Tim, and to
Mara's anger.  Sure, you are free to respond to whatever
you like, but you are choosing what _you_ are responding
to, and honey, it's the content _you_ are ignoring.

You started off in this thread by stating that language
isn't something to be manipulated, as if it were some
monolithic, static being that hasn't a life of its own.
You embraced marketing as your tool of choice in winning
over "the masses", and didn't find what "feminism" had
to offer appealing.  "Boring" you called it because 
you said that:

>You will never win the market-share-of-the-mind by telling
>people how BAD they are for thinking the way they do.

And later:

>it doesn't matter what you or I think - you must
>market your ideas for adoption by the common weal.

You seem to think that correcting injustices, in language
and in part where feminism is rooted, should be accomplished
through marketing ploys on "the masses", a nationwide
popularity contest of sorts.  An "injustice", by definition,
needs no such consensus to be worthy of merit _or_
correction.  No movement started with consensus of "the
masses".  It started with a few courageous free thinkers.
Those "far more prosaic concerns" that you say grabbed
the attention of the nation this past election were _not_
some _new_ ideas slickly marketed for Jo Public.  The
ideas themselves, the need for inclusion in govt, business,
trade agreements, decision-making in schools, inclusion of
alternate ideas rejuvenating the economy, breaking out
of the same old tired modes of thinking/reacting/governing -
these have all been alive and gaining momentum for years,
and many form the basis of feminist theory.  

It seems like you see yourself above "the masses" in
understanding of the forces that will shape your daughters'
futures, but you use "most people" and "world at large",
and these boyish "winning" analogies in places where
they include you.  I'm confused as to who exactly you think
needs educating.  Buying your daughters books that continue
traditional stereotypes shows me no sign that you are
above the masses you believe need educating.  "Having two
daughters" also doesn't automatically give you knowledge
into what women face in this society.  It might make you
more aware of some of the potholes we must maneuver around,
but the only way to truly __learn__ is to listen to
women.  

And you seem unwilling or incapable of doing just that.

When Mara said "this made me angry", what did you do?
You didn't listen.  When Melinda said in her own way
you haven't a clue what feminism really is if you think
its about women focusing on educating men like you,
again, you didn't listen.  When Jess and Tim and Ry and
Jojo and I also said "yoohoo, alan, listen to someone
else besides yourself"[afterall, a discussion from only
one perspective is a monologue, _NOT_ a discussion],
you told us you had it all figured out, that it, feminism,
is "BORING", and didn't listen.

Let's hope your daughters get you to listen, Alan.

Karen
+======================================================+
                                         Karen S. Kenny
"Of course, you silly things!"      kkenny@gems.vcu.edu
                                  Medical College of VA                      
                                           Richmond, VA
+======================================================+