HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: abde@troi.cc.rochester.edu (Tamer A. Abdelgawad)
Subject: Re: Egypt and the Arab world
Summary: Corruption in Egypt (was Re: Egypt and the Arab world)
Organization: University of Rochester (Rochester, NY)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 92 22:21:01 GMT

In article <Bx97yp.5Ds@newsflash.concordia.ca> ilyess@Davinci.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira) writes:
>
>The problem in Egypt is that you have a corrupt Mega-gang of about
>100,000 criminals (about 0.2% of the population, which is muchless
>than the percentage of szchetzophrenics in any society, so it is not
>a huge number) who are ruling your country and sucking your bloud
>(I hope youare not one of them). they are headed by your President,
>vice President, and his top party officials.
>that is your problem.. A coup within that gang wil not help, a coup
>from outside that gang would help, but it is highly unlikely...
>The solution? I do not know.. This will take us into the theory
>of collective action and peasant revolt.. It is a long subject.
>

It would be silly to deny that there is a serious amount of corruption
in the Egyptian system, but to say that we have "100,000 criminals...
ruling [the] country and sucking [our] blood" is a bit extreme. Anyone
who has lived in Egypt and faced the day-to-day realities cannot, in 
good faith, believe that the government is to blame for everything: Is
Mubarak the cause of the lowest productivity known to humanity in the
public sector? Is the vice-president (I thought we didn't have one) making
it impossible for a college graduate to move into their own apartment, even
if they saved their salary untouched for 100 years?  

Egypt is an under-developed country with serious economic, and consequently
social, problems.  How would a "coup from outside [the] gang" help?  In 
response to two posts in this newsgroup inquiring about the specific positions
of the 'Muslim Brotherhood' on various specific issues, the responders gave
us their personal positions!  Unfortunately, they are not the ones who would
be running the show if the 'Brotherhood' takes over in Egypt.

So before advocating coups from "outside the gang" and taking us into the
"theory of collective bargaining and peasant revolt", can we be more specific
about what problems these would-be revolutionaries plan to solve, and how
they plan to do it?


Tamer Abdelgawad
Xref: sparky soc.culture.arabic:4839 soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:484
From: green@island.COM (Robert Greenstein)
Subject: Re: Oct 1973: Yom Kippur War (To Husam)
Organization: Strawman Incorporated
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 18:23:57 GMT

In article <2389@gandalf.intel.com> chedley@carthago.intel.com (CHEDLEY_AOURIRI) writes:
>Well, Israel is really NOT just a minor piece of real estate in the sand, 
>as you put it.
>For Arab states and countries, what is at stake is the future of
>Palestinians, including those who have not been chased out of their
>homeland and given second class citizenship in Israel.

Har har. I enjoy a good joke as much as the next guy, but this is a
serious discussion. You know full well that most of the Arab world
doesn't give a rat's ass about the plight of the Palestinians. Just
look at their wonderful lives in the refugee camps. If they're lucky,
they might get a chance to work as a domestic for some rich Kuwaiti.
No wait, that was in the good old days. Now even that's not likely.
When the Arab leaders stop trying to use the Palestinians as political
pawns, we might get somewhere.
 
-- 
******************************************************************************
Robert Greenstein           Orthodoxy is the death of intelligence.            
green@srilanka.island.com            - Bertrand Russell                               
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.turkish,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.afghanistan
From: nabeel@sce.carleton.ca (Bulbul)
Subject: Re: Hossni Mubarak Jokes.
Organization: Carleton University
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 21:37:19 GMT

ayoub@globey.cs.wisc.edu (Nabil Ayoub) writes:

>In article <1992Nov10.183744.7396@ugle.unit.no> tarek@solan.unit.no (Tarek Ali Yousef) writes:
>>
>>I have been away from  Egypt for a while  now and I was wondering if any
>>of you out on the net could breif me on the latest Mubarak Jokes.
>>
>>	Thank You in advance,
>>
>>		Tarek 

>FYI, there was a big earthquake in Egypt that left 600 dead and 10,000
>injured, and 1000's homeless.  Which is more important now, how to help
>Egypt in this tragedy or talk about the latest jokes about Mubarak ??!!

>Nabil

    Why not do both? Especially that a few days ago, some Egyptian was 
worried about the Muslim Brotherhood's position on banning belly dancing.

   As a potential tourist to Egypt, I am more worried about banning
"sewing." Yuckghrghrghrghrghrghrghrghrghrghrghrghrghrghrghrghrghrghrghrghr!

   Can the latest joke be that ".hosti" accused the Muslim extremists of
causing that disaster? Adil Imam can testify!


**
From: scemg@thor.cf.ac.uk ("M.G")
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
Subject: ARAB UNITY
Date: 12 Nov 92 12:56:27 GMT
Organization: University of Wales College of Cardiff, Cardiff, Wales, UK
X-Mailer: Cardiff Computing Maths PP Mail Open News Gateway

Many articles have been written about ARAB UNITY
I beleive that ***NO WAY THAT THE ARAB WILL UNITE***
as long as :

-THE ARAB CHRISTIANS CONSIDER FRANCE IS THEIR MOTHER COUNTRY

-THE ARAB NATIONALIST WHO THINK THAT SADDAM, ASSAD, AND AFLAG
 ARE GREAT LEADERS

-THE GULF PEOPLE WHO BELEIVE THAT USA IS GOD AND THEIR SAVIOUR

           ************

THE ONLY SOLUTION IS THE ISLAMIC UNITY


M.G.

CRDIFF,WALES, U.K.
From: abde@troi.cc.rochester.edu (Tamer A. Abdelgawad)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: Israel Apartheid????
Summary: Existence of 'Palestine' is not relevant.
Date: 10 Nov 92 03:40:44 GMT
Organization: University of Rochester (Rochester, NY)

In article <1992Nov9.004451.1195@nysernet.org> astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:
>
>There is no "occupied state of Palestine."  There has never been a
>state of Palestine, and it is impossible to occupy something that
>doesn't exist.
>
>The only states Jerusalem, a city virtually ignored by Arabs except
>when Jews control it, has ever been the capital of have been Jewish
>states.
>
>Once again, there is no "state of Palestine," and there never has been
>one.  The Arabs who remained in Israel after the War of Independence
>were granted citizenship; the Arabs in what had been the Jordanian
>occupied sector of Jerusalem were offered citizenship when the city
>was reunited in 1967.  There is no justification for blaming Israel
>for the Arabs' refusal to become citizens.
>-- 
>Alan H. Stein   -----  AJIN   -----  astein@israel.nysernet.org

I am sure both sides can dig up tomes that support or refute whether 
there ever was a 'state of Palestine'.  Fortunately the issue is 
irrelevant:  What we have, by any standard, is a group of people with
a unique cultural background who call themselves 'Palestinians', who
believe they are 'Palestinian', and who live in an area of land made
up of the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem.  They currently live
under military occupation by Israel (the Israeli government considers
the West Bank and Gaza as Occupied Territories), and they do not want
to become part of Israel.  Again by any standard, these people have
a right to self determination.

If we can't agree in general on this point, any discussion will eventually
degenerate into completely unproductive verbal sparring.

Tamer Abdelgawad
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
From: faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris)
Subject: Re: Oct 1973: Yom Kippur War (To Husam)
Reply-To: a.Faris@trl.oz.au 
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne,Australia
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 20:15:01 GMT

In article <1992Nov5.044131.26967@galileo.cc.rochester.edu>, abde@troi.cc.rochester.edu (Tamer A. Abdelgawad) writes:
|> 
|> So the war, the thousands that died on all sides, the arab oil embargo,
|> the emergency airlift from the U.S. to Israel, the Soviet intervention
|> on behalf of the arabs, the U.N. meetings and cease-fire agreements, ...
|> etc. , all that was orchestrated by the U.S. to test Sadat ?! And teach
|> people a lesson about war and peace, so that over the course of two
|> U.S. presidents (one republican and one democrat) they can convince
|> Egypt and Israel to sign a peace agreement?!
|> 
|> Believe me, the U.S. government is simply not capable of such cleverness!

I think you underestimate the power of the west in those regards. The latest
fiasco just occured recently that culminated in the bombing of Iraq to the
stone ages. What was so ironic, even Saddam Huesain was celebrating the defeat
of G.Bush.

US policy changes only slightly from one administration to another, the aim
is always the same, and that is US stratigic interests.
 
|> You don't have to view this as a zero-sum game.  Clearly, Israel benefited
|> from the Camp David agreements, but so did Egypt.  The fact that there are
|> Arab delegations negotiating with Israel in Washington implies that policy
|> makers in these countries have finally realized that Israeli gains don't
|> necessarily imply Arab losses.
|> 
|> Tamer Abdelgawad
|>

I did not say that Egypt or any arabic country will not benefit, I merely said
that Israel got the best deal. The facts and consequences prove it.

A.Faris 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: _\!/_ Ohm Salam _\!/_
Date: 11 Nov 92 05:03:48 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <1dok48INN58p@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah) writes:
>
>____________________
>
>Good Job Ohm Salam/Jihad.

Jazeka Allaho Kheir :-)

>Elie, go to bed thinking about this!  It is ok if you get restless,
>because Jihad will never vanish..

Well, since it was NABEEL who originally asked the question, perhaps
it will be something for him to think about before his sleep, and
it might be he who actually has trouble sleeping!

Elie asked for a clarification on my usage of Ohm Jihad because he
didn't want to speak on my behalf (though he described what he believed
was my reasoning politically), and at least had the decency to phrase
it in a respectable manner without being flammatory even if he didn't
agree with ever Islamic concept of jihad.  I also appreciated his support
in the face of Nabeel, whom I still cannot figure out why he used this
opportunity at my expense to use the alias of another poster.

>"Some people work to live, others live to work, and others live to
>be a martyr."  HS

Who is HS?

(I like the quote though ... and your .sig line - nice work :-)

Anisa

	"The fire of Hell will not touch two pairs of eyes:  one that
	sheds tears out of fear of Allah and the other that keeps
	watch through the night in the cause of Allah."  [Tirmizi]

Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
From: green@island.COM (Robert Greenstein)
Subject: Re: Israel Apartheid????
Organization: Strawman Incorporated
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 20:33:28 GMT

In article <1992Nov9.173732.28018@dsg.cs.tcd.ie> ahmed@dsg.cs.tcd.ie (Ahmed El-Habbash) writes:
>In <1992Nov7.030329.18909@cs.brown.edu> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
>
>>2) The law does not treat non-Jews in any racist way, because no
>>   country in the world just lets anyone come in. It does give
>>   Jews a special benefit in that they come to Israel without any
>>   restrictions. Considering the fact that Jews have been
>>   persecuted and murdered almost everywhere they lived, culminating
>>   in the Holocaust when the world stood looking and shrugged, I
>>   think the law is understandable. Seeing what is happening recently
>>   in Germany, Italy and Austria makes it even more understandable.
>
>You mean the jews in Palestine have the right to do what they are
>currently doing to the Palestinians, because those jews were treated
>badly in Germaany and Italy ?
>
>I see !
>>-Danny Keren.
>
>Ahmed

Did you not read the entire statement, or do you just enjoy taking things
out of context? He said no country in the world just lets anyone come in.
DOes that not apply to the Arab nations? I would have a hard time even
visiting Saudi Arabia for example, let alone become a resident. Suppose
I visit Israel. I might as well throw my passport away and start over,
because I would be prohibited from many of the countries in the Middle East.

It may not be valid to talk about how Jews were treated in Germany in the
context of the Middle East, but it is most certainly valid to discuss how
Jews are treated in Arab countries. It ain't pretty.
-- 
******************************************************************************
Robert Greenstein           Orthodoxy is the death of intelligence.            
green@srilanka.island.com            - Bertrand Russell                               
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
From: wmuhanna@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Waleed A Muhanna)
Subject: Re: Calender conversion program wanted
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 19:56:50 GMT

In article <83217@ut-emx.uucp> blais@ut-emx.uucp (Donald E. Blais) writes:
>In article <1992Nov8.001806.15262@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> wmuhanna@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Waleed A Muhanna) writes:
>>Now, for Islamic history buffs out there, here is a quiz:
>>
>> When was the Hijri calendar first introduced and by whom?
>
>Encyclopaedia Britannica [Macropaedia], 15th edition, 1983
>
>Calendar
>
>    The second caliph, `Umar I, who reigned 634-644, set the first day
>    of the month of Muharram as the beginning of the year [...]; that
>    is, July 16, 622,...

Indeed, it was `Umar ibn Al-KHaTTab (592-644 C.E.) who first introduced it.
To be more precise, it was in 638 C.E., 4 years after he became a Caliph,
or some 16 years after the Hijrah (the migration of the Prophet Muhammad 
from Makkah to Madinah).

Here is another piece of information:  The number of months in a Hijri
year was chosen to be 12, not so much because years were (I think) 
customarily divided into 12 months in some dating systems used at the time,
but because 12 is actually mandated in the Qur'an:
   ``The number of months, with God, is twelve...''
		Surah 1X, "The Repentance," verse 36.

>
>For information on more than two dozen calendars from cultures in all
>parts of the world, see...
>
>Parise, Frank
>The Book of Calendars
>L of Congress: CE 11 K4
>Dewey Decimal: 529'.3

Thanks, Don, for the tip.

>-- 
>Donald E. Blais             Internet: blais@utexas.edu

Waleed Muhanna

-=-
"the man dies in all who keep silent in the face of tyranny"
			Wole Soyinka, Nobel Laureate.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.turkish,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.afghanistan
From: ahmed@dsg.cs.tcd.ie (Ahmed El-Habbash)
Subject: Re: Israel Apartheid????
Organization: DSG, Dept. of Computer Science, Trinity College Dublin
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 23:29:34 GMT

In <1992Nov10.044345.12199@cs.brown.edu> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:

>Ahmed El-Habbash writes:
>#Danny Keren writes:

>##1) The law of return has no relation to race, only to religion. you
>##   better check out before you make such accusations.

>#When we talk about race, normally we consider human races, but this
>#situation is different, humanity and human rights are not considered at
>#all.

>So you agree it has nothing to do with race or what? Sorry, I don't
>understand the context of your comment.

No, in the original post, I think the word racism was used as a way to 
describe some thing worse than racism, which is the law of return and the 
resulting consequences of it. So I would suggest to the poster to find a
word to describe something worse than racism, something inhuman, and
wruthless. Is there a word to stand for that?

>#I don't know what would you describe this situation when people who are
>#born in Palestine are driven out to be replaced by people who never seen
>#that land before.

>I do not support driving anyone out and I have not seen too many
>Palestinians driven out of Israel recently (I think 66 since the
>Intifada started?). Compared to the 300,000 that were kicked from
>Kuwait... as was mentioned many times, 800,000 Jews left the
>Arab countries. many of them were "encouraged" to leave. 

Again you still use the same logic. 
The thread was about the law of return, what is the relation between
this and the 300,000 Palestinians kicked in Kuwait, or from any where
else.


>#I don't know what do you describe this situation when a Palestinian 
>#who was born and brought up in Palestine has no right even to visit his
>#remaining relatives who are living as captives in their home land.

>Quite a few can come and visit. Many people are passing through the 
>bridges all the time. Also, this has nothing to do with the law
>of return.

>#You mean the jews in Palestine have the right to do what they are
>#currently doing to the Palestinians, because those jews were treated
>#badly in Germaany and Italy ?

>This is completely twisting what I wrote, which was that it is 
>perfectly fair to allow emmigration of Jews to Israel without
>any restriction; this has nothing to do with the Palestinians
>and, actualy, a very small percentage of the new Soviet immigrants
>setteled in the territories.

But why should they settle there, why should a palestinian who was born
in palestine be kicked out from his home, and not allowed to return,
while a jew who is living somewhere for hundreds of years, be encouraged
to come, and eventually displace a palestinian from his home ?

Surely this is not racism.

>-Danny Keren.
From: ahmad@ra.cs.umb.edu (Ahmad Hashem)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: Arab Unity
Date: 11 Nov 92 17:32:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: cs.1992Nov11.173200.25476
Organization: University of Massachusetts at Boston

In article <1992Nov10.214206.21065@trl.oz.au> a.Faris@trl.oz.au writes:
>
>They are still making the same mistake, read the stuff published by CLAO
>on the Lebanese newsgroup.

Excuse my ignorance, Aziz, but what does CLAO mean?

>I do not think that Pan Arabism will solve any problems, and stand to create
>new ones.

Interesting.  But imagine that in 10 years we have peace treaties with Israel
who becomes formally recognized by all etc.  Don't you think you will have
more in common with a Moroccan or Gulfian than you do with an Israeli or
European etc.?  If your answer is "sure", as I expect it to be, then don't
you think this unifying element that you have in common with ANY Arab
should somehow be employed to the benefit of all Arabs?  I don't necessarily
mean one unified Arab country from muHeet to khaleej, but some sort of 
confederation or something a la EC.

                                                       Best Ahmad
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: Oct 1973: Yom Kippur War (To Husam)
Date: 6 Nov 92 01:37:39 GMT
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.

abde@troi.cc.rochester.edu (Tamer A. Abdelgawad) writes:

>You don't have to view this as a zero-sum game.  Clearly, Israel benefited
>from the Camp David agreements, but so did Egypt.  The fact that there are
>Arab delegations negotiating with Israel in Washington implies that policy
>makers in these countries have finally realized that Israeli gains don't
>necessarily imply Arab losses.

Well put.

One of the greatest tragedies of the Arab vendetta against Israel, in
additional to the tremendous loss of life on both sides, is the
tremendous price both the Arabs and Israelis have paid in lack of
progress, the tremendous resources that have been diverted to warfare
(on the part of the Arab states) and defense (on the part of the
Israelis) that could have benefitted both their populations if put to
productive use.

Obviously, the Israelis have had no choice, since they had to either
defend themselves or be destroyed;  but for the Arab states Israel is
really a minor piece of real estate, and they've paid a heavy price to
try to destroy something so irrelevant in the scheme of things.
-- 
Alan H. Stein   -----  AJIN   -----  astein@israel.nysernet.org
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
From: faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris)
Subject: Re: Arab Unity
Reply-To: a.Faris@trl.oz.au 
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne,Australia
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 21:42:06 GMT

In article <1992Nov8.231340.2208@cs.umb.edu>, ahmad@ra.cs.umb.edu (Ahmad Hashem) writes:
|> 
|> I think Michael JuHa puts it very eloquently in his article in Al-Nahar 
|> newspaper July 24, 1991 when he says that The Maronites' mistake is
|> they look for their roots in France, Europe and the US, but they are 
|> orientals and their roots are in the orient.

They are still making the same mistake, read the stuff published by CLAO
on the Lebanese newsgroup. Those of them who feel they are Pheonicians do not
realise that the Pheonicians have come from the Arabian Peninsula near Qatar.
Unlike, the rest of the people like Syrians, Iraqis' who are possible original
inhabitants as new evidence is surfacing from archeological findings.

|> 
|> Yes, the founder of the Maronite church is from the ^Assi Basin in Syria, and
|> Maronites had to flea from there when they were tortured by the Christian
|> Byzantines (not by Muslims) in the 10th century AD where they went to the 
|> Mountain in Lebanon.
|> 
|> I guess my point is the issue of identity is at bottom a matter of personal 
|> feeling.  If a top politician like Joseph Abu Khalil says he does NOT feel 
|> that he is an Arab, who is to decide his identity for him?
|> 

I am not sure whether identifying with being an Arab is of primary importance.
I personally feel that I am Syrian first who speaks the Arabic language and
grew up with the Arabic culture, which I am grateful for. I beleive the issue
with some Lebanese Marounites is that they have achieved a certain identity
through prosecution under the Byzantines, Ottomans, and divisive policy of the
west that make them feel unattached to rest of the people. The marounites of
Syria do not have the same views of the Lebanese Marounites. A large number of
Lebanese Marounites feel they are part of "Greater Syria" rather than the
rest of the Arabic world.

I do not think that Pan Arabism will solve any problems, and stand to create
new ones. The Arabic people are not uniform in culture and geopraphically
separated by deserts and seas.

A.Faris 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
From: faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris)
Subject: Re: Arab Unity
Reply-To: a.Faris@trl.oz.au 
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne,Australia
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 20:48:27 GMT

In article <1992Nov6.222503.7885@cs.umb.edu>, ahmad@ra.cs.umb.edu (Ahmad Hashem) writes:
|> 
|> I am no Lebanese, and have never visited the Lebanese newsgroup, but I 
|> don't see what's wrong in Lebanese (or Egyptians or Syrians for that matter)
|> forming their own newsgroup to discuss issues that are relevant only to them.
|> 
|> And by the way, it is not that clear that all Lebanese are Arabs; i.e., Joseph 
|> Abu Khalil (a top Maronite and Phalangist) writes in his very interesting
|> book LEBANON AND SYRIA: THE HARDSHIP OF BROTHERHOOD that he never felt he
|> was an Arab, or that Arabic was his language.  (He nevertheless thinks 
|> Maronites should have excellent relationships with their Arab neighbours, 
|> especially Syria.)
|> 
|> Best Ahmad

Lebanese and Syrians have alot of things in common, many people do not know
that there is a large Marounite population in Syria. Also the founder of the
Marounite church is originally from Syria.

A.Faris