From: wcsa@cbnews.cb.att.com (Willard C. Smith)
Subject: Re: Mormonism
Organization: AT&T Bell Labs
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 13:09:25 GMT
Summary: Oh, if things were so cut and dried, but they are not!
Keywords: Mormon, Trinity and Subordination, Ex Nihilio

In response to Jason's remark that God exists outside of time, Mr Weiss
writes:

|	The proof that I would offer would consist of Joseph Fielding 
|Smith writing that Joseph Smith taught that "our Father had a Father 
|and so on." Kimball asserts that "we shall go back to our Father and 
|God who is connected with one who is still farther back; and this 
|Father is connected with one still farther back, and so on..." 
|McConkie wrote that "the elements from which the creation took place 
|are eternal and therefore had no beginning."
|
|	The LDS universe is a beginningless universe. Time always 
|existed, but there was never a beginning. Time, in fact, existed 
|before "our Father" did.

Mr Weiss, Jason just provided a scriptural passage from the LDS canon
supporting his point of view. Within Mormon circles, that is sufficient
to label anything else personal speculation. Since one of the principle
points which the Mormon side has pressed throughout this latest debate
is that the LDS canon defines what is doctrine, I find your comeback
(without a proper citation on top of everything else) rather empty.

||Mormons do not believe in creation ex nihilio.  Neither do many
||other religions -- most notably Judaism.
|
|	Which Jewish tradition are you taking about? At the synagogue 
|that I attended, it is held that God spoke the universe into 
|existence.

Mr Weiss, the Jewish tradition that God spoke his name and that the
universe came into existance is not the same thing as ex nihilio
creation. As you should know, ex nihilio states that there was no
matter of any type in existance and that God created all matter from
nothing.

Long ago, when I struggled through two years of Hebrew in my
undergraduate course of study, My very Jewish instructor pressed the
point that "bara," the root word translated as create (In the beginning
God created the Heavens and the Earth) was not ex nihilio but carried
the notion that God "Organized" the Heavens and the Earth from existing
material. Indeed you will find that notion expressed even by prominate
non-Mormons, for example, Young's concordance to the Bible and Young's
literal translation of the Bible will substitute "organized" for
"created."

Now I conceed that there are many different types of Jewish congregations
just as there are many different types of Christian denominations, and
it is quite possible that you did indeed attended a synagogue whose
members believed in ex nihilio, but that has not been MY experience!

Finally, if you wish to push the orthodoxy of ex nihilio, then I am
afraid that you will have to damn a lot of early Christians. Ex nihilio
was really only accepted by the Christians around the 4th or 5th
century. If you want to press the matter I will be glad to dig out all
the details for you. Among the early Christians who did not accept the
notion of ex nihilio was Eusebius, the Father of Church history and one
of the principle supporters of council of Nicaea. Again, if you want
specific quotations which show that Eusebius did not believe in ex nihilio
I will be all to glad to dig up his remarks as well as many other
prominate early Christian writers.

-=-=-=-

A short aside, Mr Weiss. I have been of late looking into the
Trinitarian view of God and how it developed. I am finding many cases
where I agree more with the very early Christian writers when they write
about God and less with the later Christians. I can quote a few examples
if you want to press the point.

I am also finding many cases where apparently the early "orthodox"
Christian writers would have been condemned as "unorthodox" by the later
Christians. For example, apparently Justin Martyr (d. 165 AD) one of the
principle Christian apologists of the 2nd Century, Clement of Alexandria
(d. 215 AD) and Hippolytus (d. 235 AD) all held either Binitarian or
ditheistic views (all quite unorthodox) see: Justo L. Gonzales, _A
History of Christian Thought_, 3 Vols. Hahsville: Abingdon, 1970. 1:108,
117; W.H.C. Frend, _Martyrdom and Persecution in the Early Church_,
Grand Rapids: Baker, 1981, p. 358.

I suppose that based on the arguments which Rose, et al. have presented,
then Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria, and Hippolytus all worshiped the
WRONG JESUS and are forever damned! What is sauce for the goose is sauce
for the gander.

But wait, I am also finding other irregularities. Individuals who signed
the Nicene document but would have been condemned as "unorthodox" by the
council of Chalcedon. Specifically, apparently many individuals who
signed the Nicene document believed in subordination, that is they viewed
the Son and the Spirit not as coequal, coeternal and consubstantial,
but as subordinate Gods, contingent Gods, or even as creatures of God
whose divinity was dependent upon the Father. Who are these terrible
"heretics?" :-) Again Justin Martyr is guilty of this belief as is
Origen (d. 254 AD) and (gasp) Eusebius, the Father of Church History.

Eusebius, one of the signers of the Nicene document, went so far as to
state: "everyone must admit the Father is prior to and pre-exists the
Son," and that the existence of the Son depended upon a specific
premeditated act by the pre-existing Father. [see Eusebius,
_Demonstratio Evangelica_ 5.1.20; 4.3.7 cited in Robinson's _Are Mormons
Christian?_, p 77.; see also the discussion in Kelly, _Early Christian
Doctrines_, p. 224-226.]

Note that I am NOT referring to individuals who are Gnostics,
Marcionites, or so forth, I am referring to main stream early Christian
writers, apologists, and Apostolic Fathers. Based on the arguments of
Rose, et al. they all worshipped the WRONG JESUS and are forever
damned! What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

Well, my short aside has gotten rather long, so I better quit. I guess
that I have presented enough to get us all worked up again about the
trinity.
-- 

              Willard C. Smith
  Oh God, Make my Words Palatable and Sweet, | att!cbnews!iwtgo!wcsa
   Because I Might have to Eat all of Them.  | wcsa@iwtgo.att.com
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,alt.atheism,alt.pagan