From: dgraham@bmers30.bnr.ca (Douglas Graham)
Subject: Re: Chief Justice God (WAS: God unfair)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 92 05:21:52 GMT

In article <1992Nov23.222016.15962@midway.uchicago.edu> hau4@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>In article <1992Nov23.055553.6673@bmerh85.bnr.ca> dgraham@bmers30.bnr.ca (Douglas Graham) writes:
>>>BTW, if there were God - and an anthropomorphic one - I see no reason why
>>>he would have to abide by the same moral standards as humans.
>>
>>Yes, but you and I both know that the god of the Bible was created by
>>man and not vice versa, so your point is irrelevant.  Further, it
>>doesn't seem unlikely to me that people tend to aspire to be like
>>the gods they have created
>
>But that is a sin in almost any religion. Consider Promethaeus or Tantalus.

1) Lots of things are sins in almost any religion.  But the intent of making
   something a sin is not to stop people from doing it, it is to make them
   feel guilty about doing it.

2) "Aspire" was a poor choice of words on my part, because it implies a
   conscious desire on the part of the subject.  It's more like watching
   violent TV shows.  Nobody watches them with the intent of programming
   themselves to enjoy violence, but that is their effect nontheless.

3) Your point is still spurious as far as I can tell.

>>>Was Solon a tyrrant? Pericles? Augustus? Kharoun-al-Rashid? Charlemagne?
>>>Suleyman the Magnificent? The Medicis? Frederic the Great? Peter the Great?
>>>Napoleon? Maybe you'll say yes, but that would mean that you have no sense
>>>of history. Yahweh was not a tyrrant to contemporary readers.
>>
>>Tyrants, every one (at least those that I am familiar with).  In fact,
>>it seems quite peculiar to me that we tend to attach "the Great" to
>>those who have created the most misery for mankind.  Why is it that
>>we make heroes out of conquerors, and forget about those sane individuals
>>who envisioned a better way?
>
>While they were 'tyrrants' by today's standards, all of the above rulers
>contributed immensly to the development of democracy and justice as we 
>know them today - some by direct social reforms, some by sponsoring the
>work of philosophers, humanists or scientists, and some in both of those
>ways.

Bah.  A tyrant is a tyrant is a tyrant by any standards.  So maybe there
are some spinoffs from all their rapine and murdering, but so what?
Perhaps the U.S. should invade China and kill off half the population
so that the other half could enjoy the benefits of the "free world"
such as Coca-cola, VCR's, Christianity, and democracy?

>>  I'm not sure what you mean by my not having
>>any sense of history.  If none of the people you mentioned were tyrants,
>>then would you please name somebody that you think *was* a tyrant,
>>and explain why you think so.
>
>Nero, Ivan the Terrible, Stalin, Hitler and many others. The last paragraph
>should be enough to explain the difference.

No, I still don't think I've got the hang of this business of separating
the tyrants from the non-tyrants.  Seems to be a pretty fine line anyway.
Hitler did wonders for Germany's economy, and much science got done
during that time.

Anyway, it seems that since you're willing to brand Nero a tyrant,
tyranny must still have been possible 2000 years ago.  It wasn't much
longer ago than that that Yahweh was in his prime, so apparently your
judgement has little to do with how long ago the crimes occurred.  You
seem to think that a lot of killing is ok, so long as some benefit comes
out of it for those who survive.  I suppose that by that yardstick,
Yahweh was a right fine fellow, because he did manage to acquire a
piece of land for the Jews to claim as their own.  Nevermind that he
had to slice open a few pregnant women to get it -- they're not here
to complain, so it doesn't matter.
--
Should the human race not be extinguished by a nuclear war, it will degenerate
into a flock of stupid, dumb creatures under the tyranny of dictators who rule
them with the help of machines and electronic computers.  This is no prophecy,
just a nightmare.  -- Max Born.   **** dgraham@bnr.ca    My own opinions. ****
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