From: query@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Samuel Green)
Subject: Re: handguns (?)
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston Illinois.
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 07:50:04 GMT

	Again, here I am deleting reposts of my old stuff.

In article <1992Aug18.005905.9535@uoft02.utoledo.edu> dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu writes:
>> In article <1992Aug17.174422.9520@uoft02.utoledo.edu> dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu writes:
	(deleted some stuff)

>>>Not true. Different tates have different requirements. The norm tends to be you
>>>must try to use all reasonable alternatives including fleeing. The "Western
>>>Defense" (called so because it becomes more predominant as you move west across
>>>the country) states that if you are under a reasonable fear or someone
>>>attacking you OR your property, you may stop them with deadly force. That can
>>>be as little as you are afraid they might strike you barehanded.
>>>
	(more deleted)
>
>That is what varying state laws say, yes.
>
>
	(more deleted)
>
>No, you ar eboxed in, escape is impossible. Plus, being surrounded by several
>attackers means you are already fearing for your life.
>

	But, unless I try, I do not know that escape is possible.  You said
that, on the norm, you must try to use all reasonable alternatives before
fleeing.  What constitutes a reasonable alternaticve?  I mean, fleeing is
never *really* impossible (i.e. you could charge through them) Also, if the
several attackers say "We are only going to take your money, if you do not
resist, and only hurt/kill you if you do resist."  Could I say that I tried
every alternative?  Such as:  Giving them what they asked for?  Is that a
reasonable alternative?  i guess, again, that it depends.  Previously,
though, i have agreed ewwith the idea that state laws may change the
situational alloowances.

>But, let's change it. You are in your home when you hear someone knock on the
>door. He asks to use your phone. You show him you are armed and let him in, his
>friend comes up and tells him to hurry up. The first person pulls out a bag and
>starts stuffing valuables into. You ask him what he is doing, and he says "Do
>not be alarmed, we will not harm you or interfere with you at all. We are
>merely robbing your house. We are unarmed, nd will not hurt you. You are free
>to move about and even leave if you wish." Whereupon the second man comes in
>and says, "Oh, I just cut the phone line. By the way, nice VCR. I am sure I
>will get good money for it. Hope you are insured."
>
>The start to collect the things they want from your house. You pull out the gun
>and try to prevent them from leaving. They call your bluff and walk past you.
>
>Do you:
>
>1. Have to let them go, as they are not threatening you or any other human
>being?
>
>2. Have to right to protect your castle, and have the right to blow them away?

3) Act intillegently 9for my area, at least) and simply not let them into
my home.  Then, if they tried to break in, I would use whatever means
necessary to deterr them.

4)  NOT use deadly force, but, instead use less than deadly force to stop
them.  I don't think it is illegal in any state to kick the shit oput of
them to get them out of your house if they begin to rob you (and, in your
scenario, you made their stated intendt pretty clear.  Also, would force be
allowed for a citizens arrest, assumming that it was justifiable.  After
all, they are committing a felony, unless, the fact that you invited them in
makes any difference.  I am also pretty sure that there would be a
justifiable level of force allowable in any state which can be used to keep
someone from taking your property.
>
>Surprise! Trick question! BOTH are valid, depending upon the rule of law of the
>state you live in.
>
Not a very big surprise, actually, as giving the matter any thought would
have one assume that it all depends on your local laws.  And, also, that
there are other options.  Many l;evels of action that a person could take.

>Oh, by the way, people who thought they lived in state #2, but were really in
>state #1, have done some long time.
>
>DC
>
Sam


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