HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: shava@hermes.oit.unc.edu (Shava Nerad Averett)
Subject: Re: Wicca <was: Re: New..>
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 23:25:57 GMT

In article <1992Jul17.142537@tiger1.prime.com> jasonp@tiger1.prime.com (Jason Pascucci) writes:
>
>>First, any more notes on Wicca really should go into alt.pagan, since many
>>of the folks in alt.magick have no interest in hearing about Wicca or any
>>religion (except of course, Thelema!).
>
>This is the second time I've see BA do this, and I've got to wonder
>what newsgroup he is reading. It's not the same as the one
>I am, definately. Again, as I said before, I don't see that
>this opinion reflects the state of the group.

Hurrah, Jason, for your openmindedness.  However, several of the early
denizens of this group, at least one of which is still pretty regular,
were *VERY* vocal in the early days of alt.magick's existance in saying
that this group is to be non-religiously based.  What was generally 
meant is that you could talk about theomancy, and non-western religions
such as vedanta or buddhism, but talking about western religions such
as wicca or christianity was a no-no.  The exception of course was the
discussion of mystical judaeism, since Uncle Al liked the qaballah.

As an active advocate of paganism, pagan mysticism, and neopagan 
magick, I really would *like* to discuss some of these issues here, but
it was pounded in that it would be considered offensive, to the point that
even being a pagan, to keep the peace, I put a section in the FAQ (are 
you still posting that, josh?) saying that religious discussions were
not deemed appropriate.  I find it unfortunate that we neopagan types,
(BA and me, as examples) take it on to follow this, but the invading
fundies seem to not bother to read the FAQ and respect it, so *they*
end up dominating the group's bandwidth.

/* I'm pregnant, I've got a right to be bitchy -- 4 months of PMS gone,
and 5 more to go!  (It's not that bad, but then I'd lose my excuse...;) */
-- 
Shava Nerad Averett				shava_averett@unc.edu
/*  all materials (c)1992, Shava Nerad Averett, and have nothing significant
    to do with the University of North Carolina, a mostly owned subsidiary 
    of the NC Legislature, a mostly owned subsidiary of the DOT.      */
Organization: Sophomore, Chemistry, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 01:53:26 -0400 
From: "Stephen P. Marting" <sm6h+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Runes (was Re: Odinism Help for Newbie)

Excerpts from alt.magick: 25-Jul-92 Re: Runes (was Re: Odinism Help for
Newbie) by "Tagi M. Nagashiva"@cup.portal.com 
> Secondly, I thought that the mention of runes as one's own alphabet was
> a VERY interesting point.  Has anybody ever done work on the english
> alphabet as a runic system?  I've started work using it as a system of
> gematria (assigning it 1-10, 20-100, and 200-800 values) and plan to
> weave it into my own tarot deck, but have never heard of doing it for
> RUNES.  Any ideas how any of this might be accomplished or why it
> couldn't?

Uh oh, I'm agreeing with Tagi.  I think I'll shoot myself.  :)

Seriously, though, I'd think that using "English Runes" would be rather
obvious.  Here is how I'd do it, which is highly dependant on my own
belief system (that nothing has innate power, but all things can be used
in conjunction with your own subconscious mind):

First, obviously, create a set of runes.  Using Scrabble tiles is a neat
idea, but may get you laughed at...

Now, set aside some amount of time each day, and meditate upon your
runes.  Or perform whatever ritual you think is best, according to your
own beliefs.  The first day, meditate upon 'A', or whatever.  What
you're trying to do is to find the associations that you already have to
these runes, these symbols, these letters.  Once you understand what the
rune means to you, take a little time to write it down (I have a bad
memory, you might want to skip this step).  Once you have gone through
the entire set, if you want, go back and revise the early ones, which
might be flawed from the lack of experience.

Now you have a set of runes and their meanings.  If you've ever used
Tarot or Runes before, you already know at least one "spread."  What
else do you need?

Damn, I might just try this myself...

--
Spam is:               | This statement needs no qualifiers.
Steve Marting          | Most people never call me this.
spam+@cmu.edu          | A cute address that wastes computing resources.
sm6h+@andrew.cmu.edu   | Above and below are forwarded here.
R746SM6H@CMCCVB.bitnet | Extra storage space.
>>Coming soon?<<       | Mail to here is *anonymously* forwarded to me.
"Is 'Spam' a word?" - Parker Lewis Can't Lose
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: jhargiss@netcom.com (Jeffrey D. Hargiss)
Subject: Re: rosicrucians
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 92 23:22:26 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

winstel@kit.uni-kl.de (Rainer Winstel) writes:

>Is there anybody who knows the Order of the Rosicrucians. The girl-friend of 
>a friend is worshiper of this ancient group.  
>I would be happy to get some informations.

They have a temple/museum in San Jose California.
The area code is 408.
If you need more info, write me back at:   jhargiss@netcom.com
(Netcom is in California, USA)

Organization: Freshman, Physics, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 12:23:47 -0400 
From: Shawn Clayton Knight <sk4p+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: BLACK CROWS
	<pfhm1rn@lynx.unm.edu>

>A lot of people in the pagan/mystic community are pathetic whiners.
>Has it occurred to you that perhaps I don't give a shit about whether
>the blind masses understand me?  That the purpose of this group is
>not, and has never been, to explain our existence to every idiot who
>blunders through?  Not that those who wish to are forbidden, but I for
>one will not do it, and when I perceive mockery, as I do in the quoted
>post, I will respond in kind.  Leave your preaching for some more
>appropriate channel.

Well, Reverend Bell, I agree that this particular instance seems
frivolous, but I gotta say that I would explain my beliefs and knowledge
of magick to anyone who comes with a serious intent and Willed to learn
... are you saying that you wouldn't do the same?  or does this only
apply to idiots (which I could understand)?  Please clarify ...

-shawn

PS.  Read Bach's "Illusions".
From: majcher@acsu.buffalo.edu (Salamander~)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: The Middle Pillar ritual, help needed
Date: 31 Jul 92 19:36:38 GMT
Organization: UB

>>>IMO, forms without context are forms without power.

>>I _dare_ you to look a Chaos Magickian in the eye and say that...

>Hmmm, from what little I've read about Chaos, I think that that is one of the
>main points of Chaos.  One should not just accept what someone else has handed
>you, as if magic was a cookie recipe.  I believe that the Chaos approach is
>for each individual to work our hir own stuff, and to keep flexible with that.
>Chaos isn't real into form, from what little I've seen.

>Any Chaosers care to comment?

	Sure! :)  

	What I was referring to, specifically, was the Chaos Magick
bit (might have been in _LN&P_) where the magickian creates a focus -
a mantra, talisman, whatever - for a certain purpose, and then pushes
the 'meaning' of it out of hir mind, and _obsesses_ on the focus for
whatever end they desire.  This 'focus' is the 'form without context'
that I was referring to...I've never tried that particular method, so
I cannot attest to its effectiveness.  However, making a unilateral
statement like yours (especially when talking about magick) is...well,
you can usually find someone to prove the exception, hm? 
	I agree fully with the anti-'cookie recepie' bit.

Marc



-- 
  majcher@acsu.buffalo.edu     *  The meek shall inherit the earth,   *
    Rev. M @P.O. Box 156             and the wise keep moving on...
     Amherst, NY  14226        *   The Earth is our Mother, but how   *
    Voice: (716) 834-1648       many of us still live with our mother?
Xref: sparky alt.magick:3461 alt.pagan:7159
From: Tagi@cup.portal.com (Tagi Mordred Nagashiva)
Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.pagan
Subject: Work-study exchange for writer of magick
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 10:08:09 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: ba

9207.22 e.v.


Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
The word of Sin is Restriction.


Where:   SAN JOSE, CA, near public transportation


What:    WRITER/MONK/MAGE seeks work-study exchange

If you have editing, typing and organizational skills and can be
available a day or two a week, consider this offer...

I need someone to help me organize and edit my writing.  Here at
the House of Chaos we have a fair sized reference library and a few
resident urban shaman.  I would gladly give you unlimited access to
my writings and share studies if desired.  My background is in
eastern and western philosophy, western occultism, psychology,
mysticism and religions the world over, mythology and symbology.


And:     If you would be interested in such a joint venture, please phone
         for an interview: (408) 266-2819 or email me.


Invoke me under my stars.   Love is the law, love under will.


I am I!

Fr. Nigris (ask for Tagi)
From: misha@netlink.cts.com (Michael Glosson)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Deryni magic (was Re: Ritual weapons)
Date: 26 Jul 92 15:47:35 GMT
Organization: NetLink Online Communications, San Diego CA

wt0b+@andrew.cmu.edu (William Henry Timmins) writes:

> My belief that the over-structure of ordered magic is chaos, and the
> over-structure of chaos magic is order.
> 
> It's a scale thing. I've often seen that if one is focused on, the
> other is expressed at another level.
> 
 
What?!?!?  Maybe If Zelazny is your God.  Have you looked at Liber Null
(an IOT tome), or any of the work of Austin Spare?u!
 
m

--                    
INTERNET:  misha@netlink.cts.com (Michael Glosson)
UUCP:   ...!ryptyde!netlink!misha
NetLink Online Communications * Public Access in San Diego, CA (619) 453-1115
From: sylvan@scout.ksu.ksu.edu (Thad A Williams)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Wicca and Thelema
Date: 21 Jul 1992 23:37:56 -0500
Organization: Kansas State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: scout.ksu.ksu.edu

In article <memo.531726@cix.compulink.co.uk> shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk writes:
>Tagi@cup.portal.com (Tagi Mordred Nagashiva)   writes..

>>Also, there is considerable dispute regarding the meaning of the term
>>'Wicca' or 'Witch' and whether this is always indeed part of a
>>religious tradition. I know a few witches other than myself who do
>>not feel that it is a religion AT ALL.
>
>Take the religion out of Wicca, and I might even join....
>
The whole point of Wicca is that it IS a religion. If you take the
religion out there is not much left except maybe the practice of
magick. Which is what we are already supposed to be talking about
here! :)

email me if you're interested in talking about Wicca though... :)

                                       Bright Blessings!

                                              Ari

 (Hi Br'anArthur did you get my mail?)
From: valerie@ucsd.edu (Valerie Polichar)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: re: Nagi's comment on dream control
Date: 31 Jul 1992 00:14:31 GMT
Organization: UCSD Network Operations
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigblack.ucsd.edu

In article <63113@cup.portal.com>, Tagi@cup.portal.com (Tagi Mordred Nagashiva) writes:
> With regard to obtaining 'control over dreams', I think this is ludicrous.
> Only the mad objectivist egotist would attempt such a 'taming' of the
> subconscious mind and though 'dreamwork' (i.e. infusing the
> conscious mind into dreamstate via waking or sleeping processes) can be
> very effective, any attempt to achieve a 'control' over
> dreams is likely to result in the backlash which humans now face while
> attempting to control nature.  It is silly and dangerous.

?????
What about lucid dreaming?
My sister has been practicing lucid dreaming for seven years, and is highly skilled
at the process.  Control of all aspects of self can be a /very/ useful *tool*,
as it allows precise concentration of all ones energies.  How do you define such a
'backlash' as you predict and where would it be coming from?

Valerie Polichar
From: cward@Think.COM (Christopher)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Ritual and everyday life
Date: 28 Jul 1992 21:07:34 GMT
Organization: Perhaps some, but not much...
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: custard.think.com

In article <13076.2a6f0bca@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu>, cranmer@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu writes:
|>    Both ways of 'doing magick' have their strong and weak points, although
|>  in many traditions as one advances in skill/atunement/whatever, the need
|>  for isolated rituals and 'spells' decreases as one becomes more 'at one'
|>  with oneself and/or the world.  This weaning off isolated ritual, however,
|>  may contain dangers.  Could it lead to the living of life in a constant
|>  otherworldly 'haze?'  Is this desirable?  Well, I may just leave those
|>  questions unanswered (for myself at least) till I get to that point.

In eastern countries like Japan and China, I have read of a not uncommon
affliction where people (their EGOs, anyway) get lost in the aethyr or spiritual 
realm (however you wish to categorize it).  It appears to be similar to the state 
experienced by U.S. drug users who can't seem to get back from a "trip" (seen 
sometimes in those who use LSD).  So, there is a danger of getting "lost" which 
is why many disciplines are rather strict on spiritual pathways for beginners, 
especially in a correspondance relationship.  A simple recaution is to establish 
rapport with a spiritual director or spiritual friend who you trust enough (and 
keep in touch with often enough) to help you find your way back if necessary.

One simple way to "close down" psychically is to have a fair-sized meal after 
performing your ritual or any major contemplation/atunement/meditation. 

|> ...
|> 
|>  PS - I also have been working on the idea of 'solitary' versions of
|>       the G.D. grade rituals.  Not just doing the 'official' ceremonies
|>       in the 'astral', but actually altering their structure to support
|>       only one 'celebrant.'  If anyone is interested, I could post or
|>       email the first draft of my solitary 0=0 ritual.

The mystical journey is almost always solitary whereas the occult journey is 
usually in a group.  While this is a *very* general and sweeping statement, I 
have found it to be true and work accordingly.  You might be interested in some 
books related to this aspect of solitary work.  "Sane Occultism" and "Occultism 
in Everyday Life" by Dion Fortune (recently reprinted together) cover this topic 
well.  Also, W.E. Butler's "Apprenticed to Magic" touches on the topic in the 
format of letters from Master to Student.  For more practical working on a 
solitary basis you might want to check out Delores Ashcroft-Nowiki's book "First 
Steps in Ritual Magic".  There is an example of a solitary initiation rite there 
and fairly good overview of various styles as well.

	In L.V.X.,
	Christopher
From: D_NIBBY@UNHH.UNH.EDU (Dana   Nibby)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Orgonon trip
Date: 23 Jul 92 12:30:01 GMT

T R I P  T O  O R G O N O N  (Wilhem Reich Museum)

* Arriving August 1st (saturday), departing sunday (2nd)

* located 10 miles west of Rangely, Maine on rt 4.
  5 hour drive from Boston.

* See Reich's research laboratory, orgone boxes,
  cloudbusters, etc.

* Cost is $3 for a 1 hour tour (paid to the museum)
  Make your own lodging arrangements.

* Meet other net people.

 We plan to rendezvous on saturday. Leave me e-mail
 for the time of rendezvous.

     Dana - D_NIBBY@unhh.unh.edu
Newsgroups: alt.magick,rec.games.frp
From: canders@isr.harvard.edu (Carl E. Anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Odinism Help for Newbie
Date: 24 Jul 92 16:05:57 GMT
Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, MA

In article <cstollen.4797@meltdown.chi.il.us> cstollen@meltdown.chi.il.us (Carolyn Stollen) writes:
>>he asked for help in finding information on Odinistic and
>Nordic Magic.
>
>The most common book i know of is the "book of runes" by
>Frank Blum.

	Blum's books is not bad, and does come with some ceramic runes.  He
also includes a list of the traditional rune-names for the Elder Futhark
and their Modern English translations - which are the only good
_historical_ indicators for the divinatory meaning of the various runes.

	Try some of the books by "Edred Thorsson" (one of a variety of pen
names).  He is a bit off the wall IMHO, but _does_ have a doctorate in
Germanic Studies.  His runic info is informed a little too much by Guido
von List, though, and IMHO, List is largely full of sh*t.

	On a more scholarly note, try a couple of books by H.E. Davidson
who can tell you lots of excellent academic things about Norse
religion/magic which can be useful in your work. 

Cheers,
Carl

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl Edlund Anderson	            	"Hefi ek ok aldri sva reitt vapn
canders@isr.harvard.edu			at manni at eigi hafi vidh kommit."
OR
anderso2@husc.harvard.edu			- Skarphedhinn Njalsson 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: joshua@CPAC.WASHINGTON.EDU (Joshua Geller)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: [MAILER-DAEMON@cpac.washington.edu: Returned mail: User unknown]
Date: 30 Jul 92 03:27:53 GMT
Organization: Institute for the Study of Ancient Science


eric: I tried to mail this to you, but it dinna seem to work.

so here it is:

___
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 20:07:36 -0700
From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <MAILER-DAEMON@cpac.washington.edu>
Subject: Returned mail: User unknown
To: joshua

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
>>> RCPT To:<rickheit@hawk.ulowell.edu>
<<< 550 <rickheit@hawk.ulowell.edu>... User unknown
550 rickheit@hawk.ulowell.edu... User unknown

   ----- Unsent message follows -----
Received: by bailey.cpac.washington.edu
	(5.65/UW-NDC Revision: 2.4 ) id AA05909; Wed, 29 Jul 92 20:07:36 -0700
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 20:07:36 -0700
From: Joshua Geller <joshua@cpac.washington.edu>
Message-Id: <9207300307.AA05909@bailey.cpac.washington.edu>
To: rickheit@hawk.ulowell.edu
Subject: drugs



To: rickheit@dragon
Orig-To: rickheit@dragon (Erich Rickheit KSC)
Subject: Re: antipsychotic drugs
Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.psychoactives


most of the psychiatrists I know (and I worked in the mental
health field for a number for a number of years) prescribed 
minimal doses (the smallest effective dose, discovered by 
experience) of various drugs ... navane, mellaril, haldol, 
some of the newer ones whose names I don't call to mind right
now. thorazine is fairly primitve and outmoded. and as far as
mental patients not having rights, it is very very difficult to 
treat an aduilt involuntarily these days. I will admit with minors
it is easier (but kids have *no* rights).

josh


^_
From: Tagi@cup.portal.com (Tagi Mordred Nagashiva)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Paul Clark Hit List
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 09:52:10 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)

9207.22 e.v.


Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
The word of Sin is Restriction.


Business:

Paul Clark used to post to this newsgroup.
He left.
He asked me via snailmail to post this for him.

If you are or know Andy, in Everett WA, please email me.
If you posted about your Uncle's books in ME, please email me.

If you want to get into snailmail correspondence with Paul, email
me.


Business complete.  Thank you for your perserverance.


Invoke me under my stars.   Love is the law, love under will.


I am I!

Fr. Nigris
From: oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Is Magick worth the effort??
Date: 31 Jul 92 15:38:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <ggJRoB1w165w@hogbbs.scol.pa.us>, wce@hogbbs.scol.pa.us (Bill Eichman) writes...
>u9038752@cc.uow.edu.au (roger bolton) writes:
> 
>> a) does my perception of magick, that I have obtained just from some
>> simple experimentaion and reading, agree with those who have spent the
>> necessary time actually practising?

>When I was young, I sought powers. I attained 
>powers, and found that all they brought me was responsilbility. Would I 
>have worked so hard if I had known about the responsibility? I'd like to 
>think so. But that could be hubris.
> 
>Yes, it was worth it, but I did not get what I expected.

I can't stand it when people mention their powers without 
explaining what their powers are and how they got them.

I've come across too many people who do this, and when asked, 
don't really want to discuss their powers - its a secret.  

Assuming here that you don't want to talk about your powers 
either, but if you do, please tell me all about them.

- Peggy -
From: u9038752@cc.uow.edu.au (roger bolton)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Is Magick worth the effort??
Date: 30 Jul 92 02:37:47 GMT
Organization: University Of Wollongong

Greetings,
my magickal learning so far has been long on theory and rather low
on practise.  I have had reasonable success with asana and a few other
miscellaneous practises but do not practise regularly so far.
Crowley is usually remarkably quiet about the actual results of the many
long and tedious practises he describes, except for occasional hints of
mind boggling effects.
I think I have a reasonable expectation of what practice of magick
can achieve, I don't expect any great 'powers'.  What I believe magick
can achieve is a libration from external beliefs, and then the ability
to be in complete control of your belief structures, and hence in a very
real way, your reality, since IMHO 90% of our perception of reality
is just the beliefs we have about it.
To some extent I have already achieved this, although my ability is far
from perfect.
my questions are:
a) does my perception of magick, that I have obtained just from some
simple experimentaion and reading, agree with those who have spent the
necessary time actually practising?
b) was it worth it, in the opinions of those who have spent hours/days/years?
practising the rather tedious magickal exercises, to do so?
thanks for any comments/opinions/etc
eldritch
From: crazy@obelisk.muc.sub.org (Joerg Sauer)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Response: Truth or Deception?
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 92 16:20:27 EDT
Organization: The Obelisk System, Munich (private)


In article <3031@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> sidor+@pitt.edu (George Sidor) 
writes:

> In the Holy Bible, in Leviticus 19:26 God says "Do not practice divination 
> or sorcery".

Yep, and in 19:27 he says "Do not cut your hair of the head, nor trim your 
beard".

My, those people must have looked like monkeys :)

So long,
             Joerg

PS: This is not an exact quote, it's just the translation of what my German 
version of the Bible says. Should be quite accurate, though.
--
    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
   * Joerg Sauer       * E-Mail: crazy@obelisk.muc.sub.org       *
  * Munich, Germany   * "Beam me up Scotty, there is no         *
 * 0B3L1$K System    * intelligent life down here" - J.T. Kirk *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *