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Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 12:40:56 EST
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      Re: Homosexuality
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU
              Apr 7, 92 1:39 pm

>
>(A)  I am told homosexuality is genetic.
>
>(B)  I am also told evolution will cause traits and characteristics of a
>species to disappear if it will not further the chance of the species to
>survive (ie natural selection).
>
>TRUE homosexuals do not have a chance (unless raped, but that's another
>topic) to continue the species.
>
>If the first two statements are true, does that mean that homosexuality
>is an evolutionary blind-alley?  If homosexuality is genetic, should it have
>not "died out" eons ago?
>
>Or, perhaps, either (A) or (B) is false, or we are seeing the "evolution"
>of a new species of homo-sapien (however, I seriously doubt that.)
>
>Any comments?
>

Eh.. yes.. Evolution is a load of rubbish.... next question..

*****************************************************************************
Ian Williams          			Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems         			Phone   : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 14 Apr 1992 13:42:00 EDT
From:         Jeff Shirton <SHIRTON@MCMASTER.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Spiritual and physical death

Jeff Sinatra writes:

> Jesus' true
>identity was unsen to the physical senses--as he said to Peter, "flesh and
>blood hath not revealed this unto you..."

Vicky responds:

>   Could you (or anyone else) please give me the scriptural references
>   for this?  I'd like to look this up.

This comes from the KJV of Matt. 16:13-20, Peter's confession of Jesus
as the Christ:

        He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?  And
        Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the
        son of the living God.  And Jesus answered, and said unto
        him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona:  for flesh and
        blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which
        is in heaven.  -- Matt. 16:15-17 (KJV)

The problem here, though, is that this is _not_ a valid proof-text that
Jesus is not of "flesh and blood", as it was _not_ Jesus who revealed
Himself as the Christ.  It was a revelation of the Father.  Nowhere in
the Bible do we have Jesus revealing Himself as the Christ to Peter
before this point, so Jesus is _not_ referring to Himself, but as He
says, "my Father which is in heaven."

The Son is _not_ the Father.  The Father is _not_ the Son.

As a brief rebuttal to the idea that Jesus didn't have a human body of
flesh and bones, let me draw your attention to the following passages:

        Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands.
        Reach out your hand and put it into my side.  Stop doubting
        and believe."           -- John 20:27 (NIV)

        He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts
        rise in your minds?  Look at my hands and my feet.  It is I
        myself!  Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and
        bones, as you see I have."   -- Luke 24:38,39 (NIV)

Christ certainly seemed to think He had a body of flesh and bones!  :-)

In Christ,
.------------------------v----------------------------------------------------.
| Jeff Shirton           | "Now it is God that has...given us the Spirit as a |
| shirton@McMaster.CA    |  deposit, guaranteeing what is to come."  2Cor.5:5 |
`------------------------^----------------------------------------------------'
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 04:56:23 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Robert E. Lee (WAS Request for advice

Marty:

  You're right of course about Robert E. Lee.  My boyfriend had already
pointed that out by the time I got your post.  I guess I was just too
literal-minded that day.  But you're absolutely right.  The comparison
works.  But now the question:  Was Neville Chamberlain prochoice on
German hegemony?  Just wondering how far one can push the edge of the
rhetorical envelope.
                    Love INC,
                             ---Kerry
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1992 00:30:07 -0800
From:         dr798302 <whchen@CS.NTHU.EDU.TW>

Hi! My name is Allen.  I come from Taiwan.
I took months to search over a lot of server to find this place where I
can talk with other Christians.  After subscribing my name to this server
ten minutes ago, I surprisely find that I have already accumated five messages
from it.  I can not image how many I would receive when I login tomorrow
morning (or I would be unable to login as the disk space had been expired).
Could anyone suggest me any stratey to relieve this problem?

Allen
From: seh@neutron.uucp (Steven E. Hoell)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Apostle's Creed as Common Ground
Date: 6 Apr 92 15:52:43 GMT
Article-I.D.: arizona.1992Apr6.085245.2864
Distribution: usa,local
Organization: University of Arizona, Tucson AZ

Lon, 

The Orthodox Church does not use the Apostle's Creed because of the `filioque'
clause. It has used the Nicene Creed since 325 AD. It's recited at every
Orthodox liturgy.

The difference is that in the Nicene Creed the Holy Spirit proceeds from
the Father. According to the Apostle's Creed the Holy Spirit proceeds
from the Father AND from the Son. It is not scriptural that the Spirit
proceeds from the Son, but that's never been a sore point with me.

However, I vote for the Nicene Creed as common ground.

Steve Hoell           seh@neutron.physics.arizona.edu
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 13:29:04 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: re-pro-choice
              8 Apr 1992 11:31:15 CST from
              <CXKJP%UTXDP.bitnet@UTXVM.CC.UTEXAS.EDU>

PS:  I almost forgot.  A man may never know what it is like to be preg-
nant and alone, but a woman will never know what it is like to father
a child and have no right to save its life.  This, too, is a loss of
control that causes pain.  Let us try to see both sides with love.
                                         Love INC,
                                                  ---Kerry
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 15 Apr 1992 02:31:47 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Godspell

Carol:
Since I got free tickets through the store, I'm going to see Godspell,
probably on Saturday.  I'll let you know how it goes.  BTW, how is
Jesus Christ Superstar going?
                             Love INC,
                                      ---Kerry
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Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 21:39:11 EST
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      Re: have they found the ark??
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU
              Stephenson" at Apr 5, 92 4:42 am

>
>Ian:
>Can you supply a title or an author so that I can see if I can get this
>ark book through my store?  Also, re-read your post on this.  I was
>unaware that the Lord lived in the United States (joke.)  Thanks for
>your support in my first few weeks as a list member.  Much appreciated.
>                                     Love INC,
>                                              ---Kerry
>

Kerry,
I had a quick look at lunch today, and the book is huge..

I think the conclusion is that the author has found a 'monk' that knows
where the ARK is, but the author doesn't actually know himself..

Anyway the book is "The Sign and the Seal" by Graham Hancock.


*****************************************************************************
Ian Williams          			Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems         			Phone   : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 16 Apr 1992 07:42:45 EDT
From:         MKLINE%VDH.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU
Subject:      Ankerberg posts

Subject: Ankerberg posts


John's series will continue for 2 more shows, bringing the possibility of
6 or so more posts. I find the information interesting, and not to make
anyone think "Oh my God, I'll never have sex again!" but to get people
thinking, "Hm, I'd better be careful."

I'm not even sure Day is a Christian because in John's second program she
says something like, "Look I'm not saying it's wrong for any religious
reason, I'm saying it's wrong medically..." Dr. Monteith says it is only
the Christian programs that have the "guts" to air these types of programs
so I am under the assumption that if you can't get Ankerberg this may be
the first time some of you have heard anything about this.

Is anyone finding this interesting?

By the way Darryl, what is Michael Fumento's background? I've seen him on
a program, and I believe Day agrees with most of what he says except that
she, Redfield and Monteith say the heterosexual population is at risk as
well just by the numbers. Anyhow, I would like to know more about his
background and qualifications. Thank you.

I'm pray I've been able to show a Christian attitude through this whole
think, and I pray if I've hurt any feelings you all would forgive me.

In His Love,

  Michael A. Kline, Sr. SSE
  Tech Support Manager    804-786-1559    Home:
  Va Dept of Health (FAX: 804-371-9237)   13308 Thornridge Ct.
  1500 E Main St. Room 211-3              Midlothian, VA  23112
  Richmond, Virginia  23219               804-744-9126
  "Know God, Know Peace"                  "No God, No Peace"
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Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1992 07:47:01 EDT
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: garbage music

Steven,

I can't sing.  I can almost carry a tune.  I ruined my throat on cigarettes
so it is weaker than when I was young.  I hope when I get to heaven that God
will call upon me to sing with my perfect voice, because it would give me
great pleasure to sing for God without other people making faces.


Your friend in Christ, Bernice.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Sun, 12 Apr 1992 13:40:56 EDT
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      for Sunday 12 April
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET, BSTUDY-L@UTARLVM1.BITNET,
              IVCF-L@UBVM.BITNET

      FOR PALM SUNDAY (12 Apr 1992)

Assist us mercifully with thy help,
O Lord God of our salvation,
that we may enter with joy
upon the meditation of those mighty acts
whereby thou hast given unto us life and immortality,
Through Jesus Christ our Lord.

      FOR THE SERVICE OF PALMS

      THE HOLY GOSPEL: Luke 19:29-40
      (Jesus rides in triumph into Jerusalem)

O God, who for our salvation
didst send thy Son Jesus Christ into this world,
that he might call us back to thee;
whom a multitude greeted with branches of palm trees,
hailing him as their King,
as he was coming to Jerusalem to fulfil the Scriptures:
grant, we beseech thee,
that we may ever hail him as our King,
and follow him in the way that leads to eternal life;
who with thee and the Holy Spirit
liveth and reigneth for ever and ever.

FOR THE SERVICE OF THE PASSION

      Isaiah 45:21-25
      ("Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth.")

      Psalm 22:1-21
      (The Crucifixion Psalm: "My God, my God,
      why hast thou forsaken me?")

      Philippians 2:5-11
      (Christ laid aside His glory, and emptied Himself,
      and is now exalted.)

      Luke 23:1-49
      (The trial before Pilate, and the Crucifixion)

Almighty and everlasting God,
who, of thy tender love towards mankind,
hast sent thy Son our Savior Jesus Christ
to take upon him our flesh,
and to suffer death upon the cross,
that all mankind should follow the example of his great humility:
Mercifully grant that we may both follow the example of his patience
and also be made partakers of his resurrection;
through the same Jesus Christ our Lord,
who liveth and reigneth with thee and the Holy Spirit,
one God, for ever and ever.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1992 21:39:23 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Spiritual and physical death

Vicky:

When God cursed Adam and Eve, he said "In the sweat of your face you shall
eat bread till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; you
are dust, and to dust you shall return."  (Gen. 3:19).  A few verses later,
God says to Himself: "'Behold the man has become like one of us, knowing
good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the
tree of life, and eat, and live forever'--therefore the LORD God sent him
forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken"
(Gen. 4:22-23).
Also, Gen. 2:15, where God says not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good
and evil, does not mention the tree of life at all.  Therefore, my reading of
this is that A & E would have been allowed to live forever if they had been
obedient and stayed away from the other tree.   We blew it.  Hope this helps.
                                                        Love INC,
                                                                 ---Kerry
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Date:         Mon, 13 Apr 1992 13:08:55 EDT
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: To Proud

Nigel,

Listen to the words of Paul.  They will help you.  He told us to be humble.
This is not always easy.  Do not let yourself be tossed about so.  It is not
a good witness for the Lord.  REmember, we have a responsibility.  Think about
the way Christ (God!) took on the burden of a human body and came among us and
his own people would not accept him and they mocked him and they stoned him and
yet he loved them and prayed for them and finally, he died for them.  God
forgive us.  How Jesus suffered.  How he bore all our sins.

A friend pointed out to me that I was being tossed about by everyday things and
how I should have more faith.  I was stung at first, but then I realized he was
right.  I am not the only person who has ever suffered or will ever suffer.  Be
strong with the strength of CHrist.  Be more content in your situations no
matter what your situation is.  There is nothing worse than being lost.  You
are saved!  If you are hungry, you are saved! If you are in pain, you are still
saved!  If you are sad, cheer up!  You are saved!  This life is so short.  If
you are sad or tired or angry, you are human.  Praise God!  Pray for a joyful
and loving heart!  Then trust.  It will be given to you.  You are saved!
Praise God!  he has looked upon you and desired for you to be his own!  Praise
God!
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Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1992 09:44:19 EDT
Comments:     Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X
From:         Brenda Curry-White <BSCURR01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject:      Updates (Was:Re: Congratulations!!)

Urban Research Institute
Phone: 502-588-6626

>I am hoping to be able to get another ultrasound in a couple months
>because we really would like to know his/her sex....

I just had an ultrasound yesterday (at five months).  The nurse practitioner
said she was pretty sure of the sex, but it's difficult to tell at five
months, and the baby wasn't being cooperative.  But then, my husband doesn't
want to know anyway.  He's afraid it will be a girl, and if so that it will
be spoiled rotten by my parents, who only have five grandsons--no
granddaughters.  At five months they can do certain diagnostics with the
ultrasound.  They were able to see the baby's kidneys, bladder, and other
various and asundry body parts, which amazes me because I saw it too.  But
to me it looked like a collection of black, gray and white squiggles and
forms.  This is our third ultrasound, and the one where we've been able to
see the most.  We did get to see the baby sucking its thumb, and then it
pulled its hand out of its mouth all of a sudden.  It was neat.  And it
kicked and squirmed quite a bit.  So all was well, and the due date is
August 13.

Brenda
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Date:         Mon, 13 Apr 1992 13:29:11 EDT
From:         MKLINE%VDH.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU
Subject:      Disagreeing with the Bible.

Subject: Disagreeing with the Bible.


DJ -------------------------------------------------------------------------->
                           I'll give an example (this is not what I am dealing
with but it is a good example)  When I read the passage that says that women
should not speak in church but rather go home and ask their husbands.  I
disagree.  Many women have many good and God filled wisdom to share with their
community.  It does not make sense that a woman should remain quiet when in
church.  So how do we deal with "cut and dry" laws or rulings when they just
don't seem right.  Of course, we could write this one off as: "Well, that was
just the time period.  Things are different now."  One could make that calling
on almost anything in the Bible then.

MAKS> I was told for what it is worth that back then when women got their
      freedom in Christ they started to attend church. The women sat on
      one side of the church, the men on the other, I guess so they would
      pay attention. It became a custom that during the sermon if a wife
      had a question, she would stand up and say, "Hey Charlie, what did
      he mean by that?" and it broke the service up.

      So, Paul said, "Wait till you get home." Taken as "Don't disrupt
      a service in progress." the message is still valid for this day.
      Does anyone else have anything on this as well?

      By the way, your desire to follow God should keep you on the right
      path. There are times when things get "difficult" either in
      circumstances or in the ability to hear God. One word of caution
      though.

      In almost all circumstances, something coming from someone else
      should at the most confirm what you have already made up your
      mind about. I've heard more than one preacher saying to beware
      of others receiving revelation for yourself. God just doesn't
      work that way. Please, this in the areas of "Leave your job and
      go to California." and things like that. If someone has a "God
      has heard your prayer and the answer is coming." just praise the
      Lord and wait and see. If you HAVE been praying about going to
      California and someone comes and says "I think the Lord wants
      you to go to California.", then that is a confirmation.

      I usually draw on several people with most major decisions
      because the Bible says "In the council of many there is great
      wisdom." Try to pick people who have been there. If you are
      young and in school, try to get 1-2 that maybe are in their
      40-60 and love the Lord. They can lend great insight to the
      things that the young often don't see.

      Hope I was able to help. :-)

Maks
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 15 Apr 1992 20:47:43 EDT
From:         MKLINE%VDH.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU
Subject:      RE: Safe Sex 2

Subject: RE: Safe Sex 2


Darryl at TCU ------------------------------------------------->
I'd like to point out that driving a car is MUCH more dangerous
than sex, and how most Christians have no problem with "safe
driving", rather than being "chaste" and not driving at all.

RELATIVE risk.  If you don't understand the concept, read
Michael Fumento's book.
MAKS> RELATIVE risk? Compared to what you seem to be promoting,
      how much safer are Linda and I in a sexual relationship
      totally within a monogamous relationship which will be 17
      years on April 24? Compared to your RELATIVE risk, I would
      imagine thousands of times safer. In almost 17 years neither
      Linda and I have had so much as a yeast infection let alone
      anything serious.

I can't understand how you can get into your car every day,
knowing how you are encouraging your children to emulate your
life-threatening suicidal behavior.
MAKS> I don't know that you are trying to do this, but you seem to
      be advocating promiscuity and sex before marriage. You're
      not are you?

      The other thing about RELATIVE risk, in an auto accident,
      you could be left in pain and die, or die right a way, but
      with AIDS, you could feel perfect, on top of the world, free
      from pain, BUT you ARE going to die. (Speaking this way
      because there is no guarantee of a cure to date.)


Maks at Vdh.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 08:26:00 GMT
From:         HANNANT@JII.AFRC.AC.UK
Subject:      P/R Update

All,
    Well my interview yesterday was very odd.  After being handed the job
description 20 minutes before I went in I really didn't fancy doing the job
at all.  Well this came out in the interview and as it was an interal job
and knowing the interviewing panel the interview turned into a discussion
on my career plans.  To cut a lot out basically they think the job would not
be interesting enough for me as it stands but if I could find a college course
to do on a day release they would offer me the job !?  Next, now they realise
just what a dead end situation I am in now they are going to see if they acn
regrade my post and try and give me some better prospects in it.
    What can I say, the Lord moves in mysterious ways !  Thank you for you
prayer, Nigel.
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Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 09:50:32 EDT
From:         Roberta <ROBERTAS@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Prayer Request

I am very new to this network and must say I find it most rewarding
to read the information on a daily basis.  I find it necessary to now
ask for your help.  This is a challenging time for me right now and
I ask for your prayers with regard to prosperity and a strengthening
of my faith.  I pray to walk with Christ and fear not.  Many thanks for
your thoughts and prayers and I ask that God's blessings be with you all,
too!
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Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 12:31:18 EST
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      Re: Yoga & Medicine
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU
              at Apr 7, 92 4:23 pm

>
>KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET (Kerry Stephenson) writes:
>
>>As patients, we are not required to participate in the symbolism of the
>>medical profession.  We are, however, required to engage in the worship
>>practices of Hinduism in order to practice Yoga (again, I know this from
>>personal experience.)
>
>Rubbish. I went to Catholic primary school in England where yoga was
>part of the curriculum (not actually taught, but used during breaks to
>teach kids relaxation, etc). You're not telliung me that this school
>was a bastion of Buddhist doctrine?
>
>P.
>--

Well Mr P. if Kerry doesn't say it then I will..

I am telling you that this school was _using_ Buddhist doctrine..

Just because something is church based, doesnt automatically make it
free from error!! (OH, if some of us could realise that!)


*****************************************************************************
Ian Williams          			Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems         			Phone   : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia