From: jblixt@neon.cdc.com (Jon Blixt)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Bonds "choke"?
Date: 8 Oct 92 16:18:08 GMT
Reply-To: jblixt@mips.COM (Jon Blixt)
Organization: People fed up with politicians, not politics

In article <1992Oct8.053342.6812@cs.cornell.edu} tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
}In article <48354@shamash.cdc.com} jblixt@mips.COM (Jon Blixt) writes:
}}In article <1992Oct6.184644.22727@sni.ca} dave@snitor.sni.ca (Dave Till) writes:
}}Situations in sports exist where two competitors of approximate equal 
}}ability square off.
}
}Like in post-season play.
}
}}If competitor A consistantly defeats competitor B (don't ask for a
}}definition for consistant since that's my opinion), we have to
}}attribute it to something.
}
}Sorry, I can't let you off on this one.  What does "consistent" mean?
}Winning four of four is consistent, but over a *very* short period of
}time.  Hell, you might as well call winning one of one "consistent".
}

OK, what I meant to say is that consistent changes for each sitution and
varies according to personal taste.  So for me in baseball, if Barry
Bonds continues at his current LCS output for this series and 
another in the near future, I would like a reason for his lack of
production(OBP and SLG).  If no logical physical conclusion can be
reached(i.e. an injury), that would lead me(and me only) to beleive
it is mental.  For whatever reason, pressure, "choker media hype",
October weather in Pennslyvania, Barry Bonds doesn't perform well
in the NLCS.  Since a mental problem isn't wholly different than 
a physical one, it would be make sense that Bonds could overcome
it at some point just as one would recover from an injury.  The 
problem I have is when people attribute Bonds current and future
inability to regular fluctations in his performance.  I'm still
not saying Bonds is a choker, but in my eyes the numbers seem
to be close to warranting further inspection.

}And how do you know that A and B are of roughly equal ability?  By
}their records against C?  Perhaps A simply matches up well against B
}for perfectly understandable reasons (lefty pitching vs. lefty
}hitting).  That isn't choking, is it?

I'm referring to a situation like tennis, for instance.  Both players
play the same style of game(ie baseliner-power, baseliner-consitant,
serve and volley etc.) and hit the ball equally as hard.  Two current
players with equal ability might be Jim Courier and Andre Agassi.  
No, I'm not saying that either Courier or Agassi is a choker.  Agassi,
earlier is his carreer was somewhat of a mental sphaghetti.  When two
hypothetical players start their carreers, each seems to have great
promise, but while one goes on to be number one in the world the other
never breaks the top 30.

I agree with the reasoning that Bonds can't choke because he's been
in too many pressure situations before.  Like all professional 
athletes, Bonds has had to deal with pressure all through his 
carreer.  But there are many kinds of pressure and even the same
pressure situations are felt differently by different players.  Isn't
it possible(THIS is just a hypothesis), that Bonds as he progressed
as a superstar never questioned his talent therefore he felt only
a fair or normal amount of pressure and dealt with it well.  
In the spotlight of the LCS, the mediots at an ungodly early
stage of series point out to Barry that he's choking in a big situation.  
Barry ponders this and begins to doubt just how sweet his swing is.  
This thought he also brings with him each time he bats from then on.  Hasn't 
the normal pressure of a LCS been multiplied several times by now.  This IMO 
makes it even more difficult for Bonds to return to his previous averages.
Remember this is just a hypothesis, and there are many other
types of pressure that could be having an affect in any given 
situation.  

Dan Jensen of olympic speed-skating fame felt a different pressure.
He was not able to overcome that pressure and by my own defintion
choked.  I would also like to point out that I BELEIVE NOONE is a
choker, only that people have been known to choke in certain 
situations.

[stuff deleted]
}IMHO, it is essentially impossible to ever be certain that a choke
}occurred.  Making the term "choker" useful only as an insult.  (But
}it's a damned good one.  Watch how riled the Jays woofers get when I
}accuse Carter and Morris of choking in game 1.)
}
see above
}Cheers,
}-Valentine
}-- 
}Make outs, not walks!					tedward@cs.cornell.edu
}Clemens four Cy Young!

-Jon
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball