HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: russ@math.okstate.edu (R. Nomad)
Subject: Re: user rights
Organization: Aggie? What precisely is an Aggie?
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 23:02:35 GMT

In <C0MIKB.Mus@ais.org> jgm@ais.org (jim miller) writes:

>Doesn't mean you can't recognize the importance of privacy, and bind yourself
>to a good faith effort to provide it, encouraging its provision universally.
>And we're not talking about things external to muds, so don't muddle it with
>that.

How else would you interpret the clear message that was given to you to
not log and post Space Madness bar conversations without permission?
(This is a rhetorical question, which I will answer in a moment, anyway.)

>The fact that the players on your mud haven't tried to get you to change
>your policy is more indicative of the peculiar climate of your mud than
>anything else -- e.g., maintainer who's graduated the Evelyn Wood course
>in Public Lambasting, high density of change-resistant dino types,
>auto-conform on, all of that.
>I wouldn't generalize too far, Russ.

Oh.

So, this isn't really, like, a discussion of how these things should be
handled.

It's just, for jim miller, a pinheaded opportunity to lamely lambast a mud
which happens to have people who won't tolerate his whiny simpering self.

You should've said so earlier, and I'd have killfiled it instead of
providing thoughtful commentary.

Twit.

-Random
THIS one I KNOW we've been through a million times

-- 
---------------------===Comedy!  Sudden, violent comedy!===--------------------
Russ Smith -- russ@math.okstate.edu  |  "This is the Nineties, Bubba, and
  Don Random of the "Random Gang"    |   there is no such thing as Paranoia.
What a pinhead! Does he not fear us? |   It's all true." -- Hunter S Thompson
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: user rights
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 02:17:43 GMT

In article <C0nuoC.E7@math.okstate.edu> russ@math.okstate.edu (Ad Morn) writes:
>>Doesn't mean you can't recognize the importance of privacy, and bind yourself
>>to a good faith effort to provide it, encouraging its provision universally.
>How else would you interpret the clear message that was given to you to
>not log and post Space Madness bar conversations without permission?

That isn't universal; it applies only to one specific mud.  (For instance,
you would not object to people quoting Furrymuck conversations on Space
Madness).  Besides, the sort of permission you require (at least for the log
part, though I dunno about the post part) is permission of you and the bar
owner, not of the people being logged, which I doubt intersects much with jim's
concerns.

(Of course, it could be your opinions have changed on these matters, or I
misunderstood them to begin with; if so, feel free to correct me.)
--
"On the first day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Leftover Turkey!
On the second day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Turkey Casserole
    that she made from Leftover Turkey.
[days 3-4 deleted] ...  Flaming Turkey Wings! ...
   -- Pizza Hut commercial (and M*tlu/A*gic bait)

Ken Arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu, arromdee@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu)
From: jsteiner@anwsun.phya.utoledo.edu (jason 'Think!' steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny
Subject: Re: Lunacy from Dave Van Domelen (Was: Re: User Rights Camps)
Date: 13 Jan 93 02:31:37 GMT
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Joel Furr) writes:
> dvandom@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Dave Van Domelen) writes:
> 
> >Everyone keep in mind, regardless of your faction, that eventually 
> >some sort of laws will be passed to regulate muds.  
> 
> You cretinous dingbat, what makes you think that Congress is going 
> to set up a MUD Security Act?  Congress barely knows what the 
> internet is.  If laws are passed that affect MUDs, they'll affect 
> MUDs only because they affect ALL internet-related activity and not 
> MUDs in particular.  Can you imagine the hysterical cackles if some 
> committee tried to hold a hearing on tinysex?  

don't have so much faith in your government. one state representative
body is debating gun control & a Batman comic book is one of the 
primary pieces of evidence 'for'. tinysex, (furry tinysex in particular)
sounds like something that's just about the right speed for most
politicians...

jason

--
             I stood up on my van. I yelled "Excuse me, sir. 
                  Ain't nothing wrong with this country 
                that a few plastic explosives won't cure!"
              - Steve Taylor, I Blew Up the Clinic Real Good
`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,` jsteiner@anwsun.phya.utoledo.edu ,`,`,`
From: anon.560@pax.tpa.com.au
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny
Subject: user rights
Date: 9 Jan 1993 19:13:57 +1030
Organization: PAX - Public Access Unix (Adelaide,South Australia) - Anonymous Service
Reply-To: anon.560@pax.tpa.com.au
NNTP-Posting-Host: flash.pax.tpa.com.au


Subject: Player rights

Characters have no rights, beyond whatever admins, through the game rules
of the MU* decide to give them.  The people who play the characters, on
the other hand, are humans (usually) with a normal set of legal, traditional,
family, religious, moral, etc rights.  Since no two countries or moral
authorities agree on what exactly these all are and the real world generally
resorts to saying that for a particular set of rights, these are the forces
who have agreed to try to enforce them, I suggest we don't try to be more
ambitious but try to come up with a list of unambiguous rights and see who
will agree to try to enforce them (whether because of the law in their
country, or their personal morality is irrelevant).  Here are a few
suggestions to start the list off:

L 1:  Privacy.  Anything said or sent to a mud should be assumed to be in
      the public domain and by logging in you effectivly agree to this, but
      if the admin of the mud specifically states that privacy in somethings
      will be respected, then the player has a right to expect that promise
      to be kept. 

L 2:  Freedom from harassment.  The admins will try to prevent a user (as
      opposed to their character) being harassed on the basis of the user's
      sex, sexuality or race.

L 3:  Copyright.  Similar to privacy.  You only retain copyright if the admin
      grants it before-hand and has requested other players to comply.


--
** Anonymity & Privacy by PAX - Public Access Unix (Adelaide,South Australia) **

anon.admin@pax.tpa.com.au (a human)   anon.info@pax.tpa.com.au    (for help)
anon.ping@pax.tpa.com.au  (get alias) anon.key@pax.tpa.com.au     (register key)
anon.###@pax.tpa.com.au   (reply)     anon.post.grp@pax.tpa.com.au (post to grp)
anon.list@pax.tpa.com.au  (to mailing list about anonymous mailers)
anon.subscribe@pax.tpa.com.au         anon.unsubscribe@pax.tpa.com.au

For dialup Unix access phone +61-8-235-9010 - online registration.
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny
From: russ@math.okstate.edu (R. Nomad)
Subject: Re: Privacy Guarantees
Organization: Aggie? What precisely is an Aggie?
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 22:59:22 GMT

In <1993Jan10.051928.14779@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> dvandom@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Dave Van Domelen) writes:

>     The Phone Company requires we pay our bills and not try to use the phone 
>to break the law.  In exchange they give us the ability to communicate with 
>others over long distances.  A mud doesn't charge fees, but it has the right 
>(rather the admins have the right) to expect certain standards of behavior from
>the players in exchange for the ability to communicate and interact over long 
>distances.  Many muds outline this policy at the very beginning, making it a 
>sort of contract the players all agree to.  Others are more implicit, and often
>a player doesn't *know* (he may suspect) he's broken a rule until he's told he 
>shouldn't have done that.  Of course, weaselmudders will exploit this to the 
>hilt, claiming innocence on their first offense of any given kind.  It's clear 
>that one thing this conference should establish is that all muds need to spell 
>out the house rules at the very start (yes, this is stating the obvious, but 
>being obvious doesn't mean it's being implemented universally).

Or, on the other hand, perhaps the policy should state that common sense
should be applied, and that breach of same is punishable as the admins feel
appropriate.

-Random
haven't we argued this, oh, maybe a million times now?

-- 
---------------------===Comedy!  Sudden, violent comedy!===--------------------
Russ Smith -- russ@math.okstate.edu  |  "This is the Nineties, Bubba, and
  Don Random of the "Random Gang"    |   there is no such thing as Paranoia.
What a pinhead! Does he not fear us? |   It's all true." -- Hunter S Thompson
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny
From: jsteiner@anwsun.phya.utoledo.edu (jason 'Think!' steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny
Subject: Re: User Rights Camps
Date: 13 Jan 93 02:26:50 GMT
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

dvandom@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Dave Van Domelen) writes:

> Everyone keep in mind, regardless of your faction, that eventually 
> some sort of laws will be passed to regulate muds.  

and MUDs will disappear. what percentage of MUDs out there are making
a profit? even paying their admins for the huge amount of time they
spend making them fun places to play?

i'd wager damn close to %0. and someone who's in it for the fun isn't
going to put up with a lot of BS laws. the people who complain enough
to get such laws pass deserve exactly what they get: their "right"
to MUDding taken away by the complete absence of any MUDs to exercise
those "rights" on.

unfortunately, if it ever does go that far, the rest of us will have
to put up with the death of MUDs too.

jason

--
me
From: goodridg@husc8.harvard.edu (Andrew Goodridge)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny
Subject: Few Quick Thoughts on the Gods Conference
Date: 11 Jan 93 15:22:49 GMT
Distribution: rec.games.mud.misc, rec.games.mud.tiny
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

Hi. Just wanted to pass along a few thoughts after witnessing
last night's insanity.

1. Zalcor couldn't program his way out of a soap bubble. Watching his
   MUSH (which, admittedly had a nice look about it, even if it was
   topologically crude) absolutely flake under the strain of 60+ people
   trying to get together was beyond funny. However, I DO want to 
   compliment him personally for getting some VERY diverse folks together
   in the same place. I'd like to steal that idea, thank you, and maybe
   have just a huge open house on TinyTIM when we go back up.

2. That log (which I assume is one of several different incarnations)
   is edited WAY down. It's watered down too. My entire little speech 
   about how R'nice does all these cool ideas and gets them stolen without
   credit all over the place is missing. Plus, the crap on Singlenesia was
   Hilarious, and I think the people have a right to read it.

3. There are some very anal-retentive folks in the MU* world.

 - Sketch
From: claudius@zeus.calpoly.edu (King_Claudius (Chris Knight))
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny
Subject: DaemonMUCK 0.13 release notice
Date: 8 Jan 93 23:09:05 GMT
Organization: California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo

The latest release of DaemonMUCK code is now available via anonymous FTP from
ferkel.ucsb.edu [check around in pub/mud, could be just about anywhere...;)]

Changes are mostly bug fixes, and the removal of rpage and rpeers and other
support code.  If you need the functionality of rpage/rpeers, check out
Howard's fabulous MUDLINK code, also available at ferkel.

This has been a recording.
-- 
---King Claudius---                                   claudius@zeus.calpoly.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny
From: jgm@ais.org (jim miller)
Subject: Tangentially: user rights
Organization: Ann Arbor Information Society -- Toledo Annex
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 03:08:02 GMT


russ@math.okstate.edu (R. Nomad) writes:

>In <C0MIKB.Mus@ais.org> jgm@ais.org (jim miller) writes:
>
>>Doesn't mean you can't recognize the importance of privacy, and bind yourself
>>to a good faith effort to provide it, encouraging its provision universally.
>>And we're not talking about things external to muds, so don't muddle it with
>>that.
>
>How else would you interpret the clear message that was given to you to
>not log and post Space Madness bar conversations without permission?

Hypocrisy?

>(This is a rhetorical question, which I will answer in a moment, anyway.)

Oops.

[...]
>Oh.
>
>So, this isn't really, like, a discussion of how these things should be
>handled.
>
>It's just, for jim miller, a pinheaded opportunity to lamely lambast a mud
>which happens to have people who won't tolerate his whiny simpering self.

Yeeowww!  Best of all, these characterizations can be used again and again.

>You should've said so earlier, and I'd have killfiled it instead of
>providing thoughtful commentary.
>
>Twit.
>
>-Random
>THIS one I KNOW we've been through a million times

-jim
This one was easy

-- 
* My 3 rules for meeting women *
1.  Seek simple women with common sense and a capacity for commitment.
2.  Stay away from women entangled in *any* way with another man.  Apply
    the word "entangle" broadly, and don't let them fool you.
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.tiny,rec.games.mud.misc
From: brumleve@iboga (Dan Brumleve)
Subject: Re: God Conference on Player's Rights
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 23:37:20 GMT

arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:

>In article <XIBO.93Jan11162203@fido.fido.econ.arizona.edu> xibo@fido.econ.arizona.edu (Mr. Coates) writes:
>>A player can't go somewhere, say "Admin X violated my rights" and
>>expect any justice.

>Of course, but again that doesn't mean players don't _have_ rights, it just
>means that they can't _do_ anything about it if they're violated.

Um, isn't that the definition of a "right"?  Americans have a "right"
to "free speech" because they know that the government won't kill them for
something they say, not because the Bill of Rights says so.  That's like
saying "Every player has a right to not be snooped on/maimed/murdered/
annoyed by extreme cuteness.  But we're not going to DO anything about
it if it happens, so feel free."

>--
>"Am I still reading rec.games.mud?  In MY day, flames were much better than
>that.  We didn't HAVE those nansie-pansie four letter words to swing around,
>we dug up hard FACTS when we flamed, AND WE LIKED IT!"
>	-- Doran, on rec.games.mud

>Ken Arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu, arromdee@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu)

-Dan


Newsgroups: rec.games.mud,rec.games.mud.tiny,rec.games.mud.misc
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: God Conference on Player's Rights
Followup-To: rec.games.mud,rec.games.mud.tiny,rec.games.mud.misc
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 18:34:06 GMT

In article <1993Jan11.055303.23733@wixer.cactus.org> rhodesia@wixer.cactus.org (Felix S. Gallo) writes:
>>Your project is already self-defeating.  You desire to bring maintainers
>>to recognize a set of ethical standards which are, in effect, curbs
>>on their behavior, and you plan to bring this about in a forum where
>>that small, juxtaposed group holds the parliamentary power.
>However, if jim miller were allowed to be a voice in these discussions,
>those mud maintainers would hop to order and become docile, servile
>and extremely courteous.  They would beg to have their power curbed,
>to be brought to reign.  Don't you see how powerful and important whining
>from useless players can be?
>I propose that we hold a conference in which jim miller is the gavelsman.
>Clearly, he has not only the wisdom but also the unbiased, reasoned strength
>of character to bring such rabble as mud maintainers to heel.
>No -- let's instead ask jim miller to provide us with an itemized bill
>of rights which he feels he should have, so that he can cut through the
>chaff of other people's opinions and get to the heart of the matter.  Since
>jim is widely respected, this document would of course be enforced everywhere.

You weren't listening.  jim did not like the idea of a conference, so to
sarcastically suggest that a conference with him at the head would be worthless
is not a relevant response.  Similarly, he did not want to produce a bill of
rights on his own, so to sarcastically suggest that nobody would listen to one
from him is not relevant.

As far as I can figure out, what jim actually wanted was a discussion on this
newsgroup.  He did not want a conference, bill of rights, or anything else
with him at the top, and therefore your entire post is about as meaningful as
an out-of-contex Finnegan's Wake quotation.
--
"On the first day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Leftover Turkey!
On the second day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Turkey Casserole
    that she made from Leftover Turkey.
[days 3-4 deleted] ...  Flaming Turkey Wings! ...
   -- Pizza Hut commercial (and M*tlu/A*gic bait)

Ken Arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu, arromdee@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu)
From: jacob@fy.chalmers.se (Jacob Hallen)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.admin
Subject: Re: Transcript of the "God Conference on Players' Rights"
Date: 12 Jan 93 02:50:00 GMT
Organization: Chalmers University of Technology

There once was a conference in the Vatican about how many angels would
fit on the head of a pin. I wonder why the transcript reminds me of
it.

Jacob Hallen
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.admin,rec.games.mud.tiny,rec.games.mud.misc,rec.games.mud.diku,rec.games.mud.lp,alt.mud
From: jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Joel Furr)
Subject: What happens when you make a lengthy set of policies and roolz (Was :Re: Players- Self Regulation) 
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 21:00:31 GMT

In article <1993Jan12.155852.10130@ac.dal.ca> cossett@ac.dal.ca writes:
>     Not to try and trash Shattered World's system, if it works for them
>fine. Howver, most players cannot be bothered to read the help rules file.
>How in the hell can you expect them to read a lengthy document like that?
>A lot of players I have had dealings with don;t give a shit about the
>rules UNTIL it has some affect on them, then in most cases they try to
>plead ignorance. (Gee I didn't know telling how to do a quest was not
>allowed.....no moron it was ONLY in the help rules file....and in many\
>cases IN the login message). If you create a cumbersome set of laws it
>will lead to two things:
>                          1) Many players will not read it or not really
>care to read it after a couple of pages. That is if they can understand
>it at all.
>                          2) Players will try to find a loophole, and
>if they can't just try to wear you down with whining. Of course if you
>put an end to their whinig you are being heavy handed. 
>
>These apply to wizards as well as players. 

Exactly.  No one to speak of reads the lengthy policies and rules that
exist on many muds.  snarflrd@leland.stanford.edu may well go to great
lengths to read these rules, as he says, but in my experience he's in a
small minority.  A short list of rules is much better than a long list of
rules.  A simply stated set of policies is much better than wordy
sentences with codicils and sub-sections.  More than one screen
of policies means that you're not going to reach most of your players.
From: jfurr@polaris.async.vt.edu (J. Furr)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.admin
Subject: Re: Transcript of the "God Conference on Players' Rights"
Date: 12 Jan 93 04:53:10 GMT
Organization: Virginia Center for Lemur Fandom, Blacksburg, Virginia, USA (subscribe to alt.fan.lemurs TODAY)

In article <C0pKCx.BH0@math.okstate.edu> russ@math.okstate.edu (R. Nomad) writes:
>In <C0oHqq.D07@polaris.async.vt.edu> jfurr@polaris.async.vt.edu (J. Furr) writes:
>
>>Jiro says "And you still see Random posting merely so as to get 1 line
>>sarcastic comments in."
>
>-Random
>i have no joke here, i just like saying "You still see Random posting merely
>so as to get 1 line sarcastic comments in."
>

Well, it's okay, Random, you still have that shitheel Arromdee pretending
to have valuable opinions on this whole clod of discussion when everyone
knows he was perhaps the worst wizard in MUD history.  Irony abounds.
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.admin
From: scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Kelly Martin)
Subject: Re: Players- Self Regulation
Reply-To: scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Organization: Gender Anarchists United
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 23:54:01 GMT

In article <1993Jan12.155852.10130@ac.dal.ca>, cossett@ac.dal.ca writes:

>Not to try and trash Shattered World's system, if it works for them
>fine. Howver, most players cannot be bothered to read the help rules
>file.  How in the hell can you expect them to read a lengthy document
>like that?

um, i think if you can't be bothered to read that, you're not really
welcome on shattered worlds, at least not as a citizen.  seems fair to
me.

--
"The aircraft went divergent in the lateral axis and impacted the ground."
	-- from a Navy report regarding a plane crash due to instrument failure
Xref: sparky rec.games.mud.admin:1122 rec.games.mud.tiny:1344 rec.games.mud.misc:1907 rec.games.mud.diku:1333 rec.games.mud.lp:4808 alt.mud:576
From: stanton@athena.cs.uga.edu (Catherine Stanton)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.admin,rec.games.mud.tiny,rec.games.mud.misc,rec.games.mud.diku,rec.games.mud.lp,alt.mud
Subject: Re: What happens when you make a lengthy set of policies and roolz (Was :Re: Players- Self Regulation)
Date: 13 Jan 93 05:37:29 GMT
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens

In article <1993Jan12.210031.10307@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Joel Furr) writes:
>In article <1993Jan12.155852.10130@ac.dal.ca> cossett@ac.dal.ca writes:
>
>Exactly.  No one to speak of reads the lengthy policies and rules that
>exist on many muds.  snarflrd@leland.stanford.edu may well go to great
>lengths to read these rules, as he says, but in my experience he's in a
>small minority.  A short list of rules is much better than a long list of
>rules.  A simply stated set of policies is much better than wordy
>sentences with codicils and sub-sections.  More than one screen
>of policies means that you're not going to reach most of your players.
>

Well, I have implemented a policy command on JediMUD -- the purpose
of it was to give something for players to read while they slept, healed,
etc...(lord knows on many MUDs I got horrifically bored waiting to heal,
you could only read news so many times).  But the glory of it is that it
gave us something solid to point to when we had to discipline.

Of course, since then, I have given up on working on JediMUD so Onivel is
now the only one dealing with policy there -- might want to get his opinion.

Word of advice:  Never believe co-implementor bullshit -- doesn't exist...
	 

	 Catherine

-- 
_______________________________________________________________________________
    Cat Stanton
    stanton@athena.cs.uga.edu
_______________________________________________________________________________
Xref: sparky rec.games.mud.admin:1058 news.admin.policy:1098 alt.fan.furry:2615