From: jon@zeus.med.utah.edu (Jonathan Byrd)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: mubobi (was Re: Bruce Flame)
Date: 14 Apr 92 21:36:21 GMT
Article-I.D.: zeus.JON.92Apr14143621
	<1992Apr14.180619.15905@aio.jsc.nasa.gov>
Organization: University of Utah



   jon@zeus.med.utah.edu (Jonathan Byrd) writes:
   : 
   : obAnecdote:
   : 
   : at a tournament in phoenix, i once saw brad garso knock a guy out for
   : 5 minutes with a punch that penetrated only about 2".  the guy dropped
   : both hands to catch brad's kick, and took a crisp reverse punch right
   : on the chin.  the guy's eyes rolled back, and his face hit the floor
   : at brad's feet.  i swear to ghod he didn't move for 5 minutes.  we all
   : thought he was dead.  the judges called a foul, and awarded a point to
   : the unconscious fighter (who was hauled off by the paramedics).  they
   : then awarded the match to brad, since the unconscious fighter could
   : not continue.  in my opinion, this was a fair way of dealing with the
   : situation.  the punch was not a flagrant violation, and the fallen
   : fighter was partially responsible for the contact.  by censuring brad,
   : the judges showed that no excessive contact would be tolerated, and by
   : awarding him the victory, they showed that being knocked out is not
   : the way to win a match.

In article <1992Apr14.180619.15905@aio.jsc.nasa.gov> lmgay@aio.jsc.nasa.gov (Leroy M. Gay) writes:

   I have to disagree.  Hard hits are going to happen at a point contact
   tournament, but it is not a full contact tournament and both competitors
   should be able to go to work the next day with at most bruises.  If a
   person knocks out somebody then he is demostrating a lack of control
   and should be disqualified.

my point is that there is no easy-to-see boundary concerning contact.
the fellow who was knocked unconscious apparently had a "glass jaw."
the contact was not excessive, and the guy who got coldcocked returned
later to watch the finals.  i saw no cuts, bruises, or swelling on his
face, although he did appear a bit glassy-eyed.  the same fellow that
delivered the lights-out reverse punch in phoenix also hit me
full-force on the chin in a qualifying match.  i had a lot of
swelling, and had to eat soup and milkshakes for three days.  it
didn't knock me out, although it was a flagrant foul.  from this
experience, i would suggest that unconsciousness is not a reliable
metric for contact, although it seems to be a sort of standard.

judging black belt matches is an incredibly difficult job.  mentally,
it is like fighting two people, since you must try to detect the
movements and strikes of both fighters.  the angles are changing
rapidly, and you must be careful to consider the reliability afforded
by your perspective when making a ruling.  given the myriad of
possible situations, and all the different applications of the rules,
it often boils down to experience and a subjective sense of fair play.
when i feel a match was not refereed well, i try to remember how
difficult the job is.  if the referee *tried* to be fair, he or she
has earned a certain degree of respect.  not all referees are
concerned with fairness.

it is also up to the referees to set the tone of the matches.  if a
lot of contact is allowed in the white belt matches, you can just
about bet that the black belt matches will be very bloody.

i have noticed that the younger black belts tend to strongly enforce
the non-contact rules when they are called upon to act as referees.
the high ranking teachers tend to allow more contact without penalty.
i wonder if this reflects the older teachers's harder training, or
perhaps they have just forgotten how painful broken bones can be.

--
jonathan byrd
jon@apollo.med.utah.edu
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts