From: throopw@sheol.UUCP (Wayne Throop)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Holden and superhumongoreallybigosaur weights (with small GIF image)
Summary: Even data from Ted's hero McGowan shows Ted is definitely wrong
Date: 15 Aug 92 05:26:40 GMT

A small warm-up on galloping elephants, then the main point about
brachiosaurid/diplodocid differences follows with references from
McGowan on the subject, along with a GIF image comparing the two
sauropods.  The GIF image is 100 dpi bitmap, and "only" takes 14K.  
The text portion of this posting is about 11K. 

> From: news@fedfil.UUCP (news)
> Message-ID: <2856@fedfil.UUCP>
> You need to read a bit on elephants;  McGowen's book would be as good a place
> to start as any. 

I've read McGowan.  In fact, as I post this, I have it beside me on loan
from the library again.  Here's some of what he has to say about
elephants:

    [...] in spite of their large size they are quite agile.  They are able
    to climb quite steep slopes and will sometimes rear up on their hindlegs
    to reach up into trees. 

But that's beside the point.  Mammoths share all the "graviportal"
adaptations of elephants.  Ted's theory that elephants lost galloping
adaptations that mammoths had is simply incorrect. 

> The conformation of elephants is an obvious adaptation to the full-grown
> version/model.  If small ones cannot gallop, it's because of the conformation
> NEEDED by large ones to keep legs directly under the vast bulk.

Very well.  Yet mammoths have exactly the same conformation.  Therefore,
since Ted has just stated that this conformation is an "obvious
adaptation" to 1g and large size, we are forced to conclude that
mammoths were subject to 1g, and in fact did not gallop. 

>> Ted's estimate of the seismosaur's mass is, as usual, off
>> by about 3-to-1. 
> Bullshit.  Again, I would read McGowen's book.  He not only gives a 180 ton
> figure for the ultrasaur (that's 360,000 lbs), but a damned good explanation
> of how that figure is derived.  He leaves NOTHING to the imagination.

Again, I *have* read McGowan, apparently a bit more effectively than 
has Ted.  McGowan gives estimated *volumes* for Diplodocus and
Brachiosaurus.  11.7 K liters and 87.0 K liters respectively. 
Brachiosaurus was 74 ft from nose to tail, and Diplodocus was 87 ft. 
According to McGowan's own references, Diplodocus was about *eight*
*times* "skinnier" than Brachiosaurus. 

Also suggestive are facts from "Dinosaur Systematics", a collection of
papers edited by Carpenter and Curie, presented in the paper called
"Species determination in sauropod dinosaurs" by John S.  McIntosh.  He
points out (among many other things) that brachiosaurids have 53 or so
vertebrae in their tails, while diplodocids have 80 or so.  In this and
other measures, diplodocids are about as different from brachiosaurids
as it is possible to be while being sauropods.  And from the above, we
can see that diplodocids have very, very long tails (compared to other
sauropods). 

Note also the skeletal measurements given by Guiness: Diplodocus' length
of 87 feet is 72 feet neck and tail, and only 15 feet of body, 11 feet
high at the shoulder.  Compare with brachiosaur, which has about 72 feet
total length, 20 feet or so at the shoulder, 45-50 feet of neck and
tail, and 22-27 feet of body.  That is, diplodocid lengths are about 83
percent neck and tail, while brachiosaur lengths are only 62-70 percent
neck and tail.  And the bodies of brachiosaurs are thicker, to boot. 

( More recent studies due to Alexander and others have the average
  differences between brachiosaurids and diplodocids of equal length at
  something like four-to-one instead of the more extreme eight-to-one or
  more of Ted's McGowan reference, but the point is, Ted's position is
  contradicted by the very same source from which he gets his Ultrasaur
  mass, as well as by many other sources to boot.  )

> The ultrasaur (the 360,000 one) was only 100' long.  The seismosaur was
> 140'  long (see the July 91 issue of Popular Science).  I cannot think of
> any way in which the seismosaur at 140' could have been skinny enough to 
> weigh less than the ultrasaur at 100'.  

The actual facts of the matter are not limited by Ted's imagination. 
Using the figures from McGowan for masses (from another table, McGowan
gives 18 tons for the 87 ft Diplodocus), and scaling up by using the
correct species (the seismosaur was a diplodocid, remember), we get a
more-correct-than-Ted's estimate of 18*(140^3/87^3), or 75 tons, or
about 150,000 lbs.  Note again that this is what I get by reading
McGowan, just as Ted advised me to do. 

And before we pass from McGowan to other subjects, McGowan also
has resolutions of the other perenial Ted favorite pseudo-problems,
that of the heavy neck and the food intake.  McGowan says

    Head support in living quadrupeds is assisted by the nuchal
    ligament, an extensive structure running from the vertebrae
    of the shoulder region to the back of the skull. [...] Tension
    in the ligament holds the head up, relieving the epaxial neck
    muscles of much of the burden.  Furthermore, when the hypaxial
    muscles contract, depressing the head, the ligament is stretched.
    Because of its low Young's modulus, the nuchal ligament stores a
    large amount of strain energy, and since it can be extended fairly
    easily the ligament allows for a fairly large range of motion.
    When the muscles relax, the strain energy is released, assisting
    the epaxial muscles in elevating the head.
             [...]
    David Norman, in his outstanding book on dinosaurs, suggested
    that the nuchal ligament may have been continued caudally
    (backward) along the tops of the neural spines of the dorsal
    vertebrae and along those of the caudal vertebrae.  A ligament
    of this size would have functionally connected the head and
    the tail so that the two would have counterbalanced each other,
    which makes good mechanical sense.

Alexander, in "The Dynamics of Dinosaurs and Other Extinct Giants",
calculates that the strength of this ligament (from the sizes of the
spaces in the vertebrae through which it passed) is sufficient to solve
this problem for Ted. 

McGowan goes on to say (about eating):

    The strategy of the sauropod was therefore to have a small but mobile
    head which served for food gathering but not for food processing.  The
    latter function was almost certainly performed by the gut, probably in a
    muscular gizard containing stones for grining up food, like that of a
    bird. 

and in the older "Successful Dragons", McGowan also mentions:

    It has often been argued that the sauropods must have spent all
    their time eating in order to obtain sufficient energy to maintain
    their enourmous bodies, but this argument is without a sound
    foundation.  It is true that elephants consume large quantities
    of food, but it much be emphasized that mammals have high metabolic
    rates and the same cannot be assumed for sauropods.

My advice to Ted is, he should himself read McGowan a bit more
carefully, and perhaps he won't make so many errors next time.

> A more realistic figure for these creatures would be 500,000 lbs +.

Hardly.  The Ultrasaur figure of 180 tons is one of the largest
estimates anybody competent has ever seriously proposed for any 
sauropod dinosaur. 

> Message-ID: <2859@fedfil.UUCP>
>> Are the Seismosaur and Ultrasaur the same shape?  
> I can only go from the pictures I've seen, which aren't that much different.

Ted does seem to rely on artist conception "pictures" a lot.  The
galloping mammoth, the teratorn as an "eagle", the "sauropods is
sauropods" claim.  In every case they lead him into error.

Yet artists conceptions of diplodocids and brachiosaurids are not really
all that similar.  I'm appending a GIF demonstrating this, taken from "A
New Look at the Dinosaurs".   (Actually, not so new: published in '83.)

> If you check out recent editions of
> Guiness' Book of World Records, you'll find much lower weight estimates
> for sauropods, and you'll notice that the claim is being made that these
> estimates are made via a study of track depths.  

Only if one reads with very poor attention.  Here's what Guiness
has to say about its estimate for the seismosaur:

    In 1985 the remains of another huge diplodocid were excavated
    from a site near Albuquerque, NM.  According to Dr. David Gillette
    at the Division of State History, UT, this giant sauropod, informally
    named /Seismoaurus/ ("earthquate lizard"), measured an estimated
    128-154 ft. in total length and weighed at least 50 tons.  These
    estimates were given by Gillette in 1989, based on the assumption
    that seismosaurus was 50-80 percent longer than diplodocus, based
    on comparisons of individual bones.

No mention of track depths here.  In fact, Gillette used exactly the
same methods as McGowan used for Ultrasaurus (that is, he scaled up
a more complete skeleton of a comparable specimen by estimated lengths).
In fact, Guiness' introduction to the section says that the weights are
generally estimated by model building, fluid displacement, and
then applying a scale factor, just as McGowan does.

The only place where tracks are mentioned in Guiness' entry for
sauropods is for Breviparopus, where it says:

    Fossilized footprints made by sauropod dinosaurs can also give
    estimates of size for animals that are not known from skeletons.
    Footprints of a dinosaur called /Breviparopus/taghbaloutensis/ from
    Morocco are over 3ft 3in long, and may have been made by an animal
    weighing 55.1 tons.  A similar body weight is estimated for tracks
    made by the brachiosaurid /Pleurocoelus/ in Texas.

This can be misinterpreted to mean that the size was estimated by the
track depths, and is a measure of force.  But closer examination shows
that the *length* of the print was used, not the *depth*, thus this is
another estimate of *mass* gotten in turn by estimating *volume*.  

Ted's whole "Guiness uses track depths for their estimates" is purely a
product of his own imagination.  It just isn't there in the book. 

> Guiness even goes on to say that nothing over around 130,000 lbs or so could
> stand in the world, that in fact the legs it would take to hold him wouldn't
> fit under him.  

No.  Actually, they say:

    Theoretical calculations suggest that some dinosaurs approached the
    maximum body weight possible for a terrestrial animal, namely 132 tons.
    At weights greater than this, the legs would have to be so massive
    to support the bulk that the dinosaur could not have moved.

( They also give a weight of 60 tons or so for Ultrasaurus, which they
  note turned out not to be quite as large when the skeleton was
  examined more closely. Their data is somewhat more recent than McGowan. 
  But it is in NO way based on track depth or "force" based estimates. )

Perhaps Ted is mistaking "132 tons" for "130,000 lbs".



----- diplodocid/brachiosaurid comparison GIF follows -----

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end
--
Wayne Throop  ...!mcnc!dg-rtp!sheol!throopw