HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu (Eric Rescorla)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: Rescorla for himself.
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 20:04:05 GMT

In article <AWERLING.92Sep11124805@dante.nmsu.edu> awerling@nmsu.edu (WERLING) writes:
>In article <1992Sep8.235056.10764@cs.yale.edu> rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu (Eric Rescorla) writes:
>-   I have asked Mr. Werling to back up his assertion twice now. He
>-   just keeps repeating himself. You should feel free to back it
>-   up for him. I have yet to see ANYONE do so.
> 
>You can continue to, without supporting the claim, state that I fail
>to back up my assertions.  Show me the logical flaws and I'll respond
>to them.  Just saying that I'm repeating myself without further
>explanation just makes you look like someone without a real argument
>to fall back on.
Mr. Werling, you have yet to DISPLAY any logic, therefore I am unable
to point out logical flaws for you.
You have simply continued to assert that telling children
of one's religious beliefs that being gay is sinful is immoral.
I have been and continue to be skeptical of that claim. You, sir,
have the burden of proof. I have and am asking you again to meet
that burden. If you refuse to do so, the only rational conclusion
to make is that you are unable to do so.

-Ekr

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Rescorla, DoD#431 (Nighthawk S)              rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu
Former chemist now CM400 mechanic                 ekr@eitech.com(preferred)
                       I will hack Unix for food.
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: cosc177z@rosie.uh.edu (92H02966)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Houston
Distribution: usa
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 17:28:00 GMT

In article <1992Sep05.190859.172384@zeus.calpoly.edu>, jkusters@zeus.calpoly.edu (Chrome Jester) writes...
>I'm sitting here reading your last few posts about what you believe
>homosexuals (gay men specifically) are all about, and I really can't help
>giggling.  What strange and laughable myths you straigh folk have.
> 
>5 partners a day?  *giggle*
I did not attach any moral significance to this plus or minus.  I did not say
that all gay males engage in this high risk behavior.  I am saying that some
homosexuals in serious conversation have stated that this was their *personal*
experience.  I didn't read it in some magazine.  Gay males stated as a fact to
me that they had extended periods where they had sex four or five times per day
with different partners.  Perhaps they were lying, but they seemed sincere at
the time.  Personally, I think the idea of having sex that much sounds like a
blast.  Since I'm straight and not particularly rich and not a swinger, it
hasn't ever happened yet.

I'm very well aware that a majority of pedophiles are not homosexuals but
when my child is 16 they are not a child but not an adult.  Since I believe 
that homosexuality is partially environment and since I wish to influence my
children to be straight, I feel uncomfortable for them to be around homosexuals.

Why?  Because when I was young, I *was* hit on by the homosexual who headed up
our door to door sales team.  He *did* get into a relationship with one of my
friends (who was at the ripe old age of 14).  I do want grandchildren and I
feel that the straight lifestyle will result in a happier life for my children
as well.  If they turn out to be gay, I won't try to reprogram then or stop
loving them but I feel that the environment in which they are raised can have an
effect on their orientation.  Is it 10%, 20%, 50%?  I don't know.

>No such thing as a long term relationship??  *guffaw*

I didn't say this.  Perhaps some of the other religious types did.  I think
that some homosexuals are capable of long term relationships.  Some straights
are capable of long term relationships.  

>All gay men are into young boys???  *outright laughter*
No.  But in my direct experience, some are.   Homosexuals seem much more common
than pedophiles so I am more concerned about a homosexual alone with my same
sex child than I am about a straight person turning out to be a pedophile.  And
I'm not really concerned at age 10.  I'm more concerned around 15 to
16 when they are not yet an adult but are sexually mature.
> 
>Really!  You guys are about as amusing as a Grimm Fairy Tale!
> 
Anyway... cheers.
---
Stephen McLeod       Last day of chemo for this cycle...
The Eternal Student  Yea!  I didn't throw up this time.
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu (Eric Rescorla)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: Rescorla for himself.
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 14:52:36 GMT

In article <pitvvfg@zola.esd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.esd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
>In article <1992Sep8.032651.27783@cs.yale.edu>, rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu (Eric Rescorla) writes:
>|> 
>|> 2) The assumption that "I'm right and you're wrong" is part of
>|> the fundamental assumption set of Christianity, and many other
>|> religions. This is exactly the same problem as preaching to those
>|> who do not wish to be preached to(to tie in to alt.atheism).
>
>I think you are mixing up two different things.   Anyone can
>preach any time they want, and they do.   There is someone
>preaching somewhere twenty four hours a day.
>
>But this is not what some religious groups have in mind when 
>they talk about 'helping' Gays.   They talk about Gays being 
>mentally ill, and needing to be restrained for their own good. 
Yes, I'm quite aware of that.
That actually is part of what I was thinking of when I wrote
"help."

>There is a much greater measure of compulsion in that than in 
>preaching.   The belief that "I'm right and you're wrong" may 
>well lead someone to express their opinion, and we protect their
>right to do so by law.   It's when they claim that their 
>supposed 'rightness' entitles them to apply coercion to other
>people that I worry.
Oh, I worry too, Mr. Livesey.
But that is not what is at issue here. What is at issue is whether
the Golden Rule prohibits them from doing so. Mr. Webb has
asserted that it does. I disagreed. The actual desirability
of them doing so is an entirely different issue.

>So, how would you feel about Christians passing laws to get
>Atheists banned from jobs and housing until they convert?
>I know it would be perfectly natural behaviour for a Vogon,
>but how about for a human being?
I'd be quite unhappy about it. But as I've been trying to explain
to you, this is irrelevant to the discussion I've been participating
in. The general moral desirability of this sort of behavior
is one thing. I've been discussing the merits of one specific
claim to it's undesirability.

>|> So, I don't buy your argument that the golden rule prohibits
>|> attempting to "cure" homosexuals.
>
>With their consent, or through coercion?
It is not my belief that the Golden rule prohibits attempting
to coerce homosexuals into becoming heterosexual.
-Ekr


-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Rescorla, DoD#431 (Nighthawk S)              rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu
Former chemist now CM400 mechanic                 ekr@eitech.com(preferred)
                       I will hack Unix for food.
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: romingk@pell3l0.alleg.edu (Karl Rominger)
Subject: WHERE IS THE FUN
Organization: Allegheny College
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 17:24:17 GMT


As an Eagle Scout, 3 time BSA camp councilor, and OA member, I have few  
memories of this kind of policy debate.  I remember good times, wholesome  
activities, and family and community values.  I learned  stewardship,  
responsibility, accountibility, and love.  I also learned that while one  
is always reverent of other's beliefs, that responsibility to god and  
country come first.  If you don't like the traditional values expoused by  
our brotherhood, than go and found your own movement.  Unfortunately it is  
always easier to kill than to create.  


In Brotherhood
Karl E. Rominger
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: jmcc@ticipa.pac.sc.ti.com (John McCollum)
Subject: Re: Boards of Review
Organization: Texas Instruments
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 18:47:06 GMT

In article <1709@necis.UUCP> mgodbout@necis.UUCP (Marc Godbout) writes:
>I've been told that when participating in a board of review, the reviewers
>should not spend any time grilling the scout on scout knowledge, but should
>more or less talk to him about his plans and goals.  I was wondering what other
>troops do.  What do you think the board of review is supposed to accomplish?
>Should we be preparing the scout for the Eagle board of review (whatever that
>is)?  How do you decide if the scout is ready or not for advancement?
>Thanks for any help you may have.
  In our troop, the boards of review do not constitute a final exam but 
rather a fairly relaxed conversation with the scout about his progress.  We
also make it an opportunity for the scout to tell us what he likes/dislikes
about the troop, program, etc.  The review of the scouts knowledge and the
decision of his readiness for advancement is generally done by the Scout
Master at the Scout Master conference.

John McCollum
ASM Troop 895
Circle Ten Council
Richardson, Tx
From: gwb@crosfield.co.uk (George Battrick)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Current Batch of Uniforms
Date: 11 Sep 92 19:38:01 GMT
Organization: Crosfield Electronics, Hemel Hempstead, United Kingdom.

In article <1992Sep10.213059.8681@iplmail.orl.mmc.com> mwilson@orl.mmc.com writes:
"Is it just me? Is there someone else out there who thinks that the current 
"(BSA) uniform shorts are cut too short? I've had complaints from mothers and 
"boys in my troop. It's hard to encourage complete uniforms when a part of it 
"makes people uncomfortable.
"
Please clarify your situation, for the sake of the rest of the world.
I have seen BSA scouts in shorts of various different lengths.  Is
there not more than one supplier?

Soccer and rugby players here wear shorts anything up to about a 2"
inside leg, and seem comfortable enough.  I would have thought the
shorter the better, for physical activities.

[What is it about shorts, anyway?  In the UK, they switched in about
the mid-'60s from being a compulsory part of the uniform to being
forbidden, and Scouts now look more or less like Army cadets.  There
is a "splinter group" (the "Baden-Powell Scouts", I believe) which
kept the shorts, but I don't know how well they're doing.

More generally, I understand there was trouble in a Miami school a few
years ago because the dress code forbade shorts.  This seemed highly
ironic in the UK, where there were great battles, again in the '60s
and '70s, to stop shorts being compulsory year-round in some schools.] 

"While we're at it. What ever happened to the garters for the knee socks. It
"seems that they still can't make the socks so they can stay up on their own.
"Even if they wanted to do away with the flashes, they could have kept the
"garters and do away with the sock tug of war (the socks always win).
"
Again, try a sports shop.  At least in the UK, garters or ties are
available for holding up soccer socks.  Failing that, given that
without a flash the garter is not visible in use, make your own!
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: katbea@auto-trol.com (Kathy Beatty)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: Auto-trol Technology Corporation -- Denver, Colorado
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 03:47:13 GMT

hill@rtsg.mot.com (Karen Hill) writes:
: katbea@auto-trol.com (Kathy Beatty) writes:
: 
: >Karen Hill, you are an immoral, ignorant bigot. Your immoral, ignorant
: >bigotry hurts children.
: 
: 
: >Kathy
:  That is your opinion of me....Since you know nothing of me except my opinion of
: this issue, I think you have very little to pass judgement on.

Yet you think you have the right to pass judgment upon Gays and Lesbians
whom you have never even met?  Have you ever thought that perhaps you are
wrong? 
: 
: I am sorry that you disagree with my opinion or that you disapprove of my 
: parenting techniques, but it is my perogative to raise my children as I
: see fit and to do for them what I consider to be in their best interests.
: 
I truly hope that what you do is in their best interests. Please understand
that attitudes like yours are emphatically NOT in the best interests of
Lesbian and Gay children, who, despite your opinion, do not have CHOICE
over their sexual orientation.

: If it disagrees with your opinion, so be it, but back off the name-calling.
: 
Agreed. One of the reasons I addressed that to you directly is that you
seem to be someone might possibly be open-minded enough to realize that
the things you have been posting are nothing less than bigotry. And that
kind of bigotry does hurt children.

: It is offensive and certainly not constructive to this discussion.
: 
I consider the falsehoods that are constantly told about Gays and 
Lesbians, often by people (like you?) who think they are well 
intentioned, offensive and destructive. Your opinion ends where the 
truth begins. I will continue to fight bigotry wherever I see it.

: You are entitled to your opinion as I am entitled to mine.
: 
And I and all Gays and Lesbians are entitled to equal citizenship in
this country - nothing more, nothing less - as are you. 

: -Karen Hill

Kathy
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: mccalley@rtsg.mot.com (Phil McCalley)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: Motorola Inc., Cellular Infrastructure Group
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 18:31:07 GMT

zane@ddsw1.mcs.com (Sameer Parekh) writes:

>In article <1992Sep11.193841.22336@cs.yale.edu> rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu (Eric Rescorla) writes:
>>Please substantiate your claim.
>>Your claim that you should NEVER try to make a kid feel bad about
>>themselves is no more supported than your claim that it is
>>immoral to tell a gay teenager that they are going to hell.

>	I too think that it is immoral to make a kid feel bad 'bout himself,
>but that's in my morality.  If for you it isn't immoral, then go ahead and
>do it if you want, it's your choice, you have the right to say anything you
>please.

>	Love, and do what thou wilt.
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Scarey!  "I am your number one fan."

>	
>-- 
>Sameer_Parekh zane@ddsw1.MCS.COM zane@infopls.chi.il.us
>PFA related mail to pfa@ddsw1.MCS.COM   | Specialization is for insects
>Anonymous mail to ap.2363@cupid.sai.com |   - Robert A. Heinlein
>Sun Sep 13 10:13:27 1992 US Debt: $4,057,220,925,041 Per capita: $15,887
-- 
....................................................... Phil McCalley

Disclaimer:  I speak for myself and anyone who agrees with me.
Xref: sparky rec.scouting:3064 alt.discrimination:4379 chi.general:1120 alt.atheism:17174 alt.politics.homosexuality:5977
From: max@hilbert.cyprs.rain.com (Max Webb)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Date: 6 Sep 92 02:25:28 GMT
Article-I.D.: hilbert.1992Sep6.022528.22499
Distribution: usa
Organization: Cypress Semiconductor Northwest, Beaverton Oregon

In article <1992Sep4.182434.21206@cs.yale.edu> rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu (Eric Rescorla) writes:
>In article <1992Sep4.033027.12445@auto-trol.com> katbea@auto-trol.com (Kathy Beatty) writes:
>>Karen Hill, you are an immoral, ignorant bigot. Your immoral, ignorant
>>bigotry hurts children.
>Hmm...
>It strikes me that the claim that bigotry is "immoral" is every bit
>as tenuous as the claim that homosexuality is "immoral". While
>I agree that there is no support for the latter, neither do I
>see support for the former.
>-Ekr

Wellll, most people buy into the 'treat others as you would yourself
be treated' principle, and so do I. This has the fundamental requirement
that you treat them as people - not, for example, as means to an end.
So I take this 'translational invariance' as an axiom.

Bigotry doesn't treat others as people, with all their complexity, but
as cartoon bad guys. The inference about the immorality of bigotry follows
straight away.

>Eric Rescorla, DoD#431 (Nighthawk S)              rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu

Regards,
	Max G. Webb

Rita Mae Brown: "The only queers are the ones that don't love anybody."
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: awerling@nmsu.edu (WERLING)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: NMSU Computer Science
	<AWERLING.92Sep8161138@dante.nmsu.edu> <pk1a5g8@zola.esd.sgi.com>
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 19:33:49 GMT

In article <pk1a5g8@zola.esd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.esd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:

   awerling:
   |> Thinking back to my own past, the help I would have wanted would have
   |> been some affirmation that being gay was okay (wow...a scoutmaster
   |> even), that it was normal, that one could live a gay life and not be
   |> on the brink of suicide all of one's life.

-   I completely agree.   You - and I - would want the freedom to
-   say what kind of help it is you would want, and when you would
-   want it.

-   I expect we would both grant other people that same freedom.

Individuals' help for *themselves.*  I do NOT grant parents the
freedom to try to "cure" their gay kids.  I do NOT grand parents the
freedom to teach their kids that homosexuality is immoral.

It's called shitty parenting.  Abuse.

--
Andrew Werling    awerling@nmsu.edu    yip@acca.nmsu.edu
"Jesus is coming, look busy."
          --from a button I bought in an Albuquerque bookstore.
From: rlwst8+@pitt.edu (Robert L Williamson)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: The New Eagle Scout Requirements
Date: 6 Sep 92 23:46:37 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

Hi, I am a fellow Eagle Scout and I was wondering something about the new 
updated requirements.  I received my Eagle rank back in '88.  When I did my 
project i remember compiling a humungous book that included everything I did
in my project including planning hours and step by step events.  Over the 
summer I recently helped in an Eagle project and the soon to be Eagle
told me that the book requirements were greatly reduced but we did not get into
the details of the changes that were made.  Could someone please clue me in
as to what these new changes are?


				Rob  
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: joeb@pdnfido.fidonet.org (Joe Beiter)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Date: 13 Sep 92 15:12:15 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: The Source for Source Pub Access Unix

In article <1992Sep10.200436.566@hilbert.cyprs.rain.com> max@hilbert.cyprs.rain.com (Max Webb) writes:
>In article <1992Sep9.154723.21575@cs.yale.edu> rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu (Eric Rescorla) writes:
>>This argument started with someone claiming that the golden rule

>can be ambiguities. Fundamentalists appear to be much less
>capable of this - I can usually predict their moves in a debate, but
>they have trouble doing the same.

So you are thus correct due to your mental superiority?

>
>Fundamentalists have admitted to me in the past that they can't even imagine
>what the mental state of a nonbeliever (or other-believer) is like, and some
>have even claimed that it is a _good_thing_. They simply cannot shed any
>portion of their memetic parasitic - it is compulsively held.
>
Oh?  I take it these 'Fundamentalists' have been believers from birth?


>It shows up in circular proofs of the Bible via Bible proof-texting. They
>can't even drop the assumption of biblical inerrancy, even while trying
>

If the Bible is in error then either 1) The God of The Bible is not real or
2) Hes a wimp and can't even keep his own word straight.
People who say they live by the Bible but belive it can be wrong in places
just need a 'spiritual security blanket' to save them from fear of the dark.


>None of these things are flawed, simply because fundamentalists find
>difficulty in honoring them. The fault lies not in the Golden Rule,
>but in their own concrete skulls. To apply the Golden Rule, you must
>admit that other viewpoints exist, and honor them. This the fundamentalist
>cannot do.

So you're proposing the Golden Rule REALLY means "Treat others as THEY would
have YOU treat THEM"?

I think you'd better call it something else.

I find it interesting that there is so much Bible related discussion going
on in here.  Its clear the Bible condems homosexuality (Old and NT).  Why
do you even care what the book says if your only concern is your lifestyle?

If you're looking for change thats another thing, I know several homosexual
friends that have changed.  They seem much happier these days too. 


-- 
-=@=-=@=-=@=-=@=-::
- JoeB           Joe.Beiter@HauppaugeNY.NCR.COM
                 joeb@pdnfido.fidonet.org
-=@=-=@=-=@=-=@=-::
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: philipla@microsoft.com (Phil Lafornara)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Date: 05 Sep 92 22:24:43 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation
Distribution: usa

In article <4SEP199213465181@jane.uh.edu> st1lv@jane.uh.edu (McLeod, Stephen) writes:
>Same sex marraiges-- fine.
>Gays in the military-- fine.
>However, a male homosexual troop leader is as difficult for me as a male
>heterosexual troop leader in charge of a girl scout troop and the same for
>a lesbian in charge of my girl's brownie troop.

     How about a heterosexual female leader for a Cub Scout troop?
I understand that's fairly common practice even today (it certainly
was common when I was a Cub Scout).


>I don't think it is appropriate for the BSA to accept funds from the government
>if it discriminates against homosexuals but I do feel it is my right of free
>association to join my child in an organization that minimizes the risk of 
>child abuse (i.e. same sex straight adult leaders).

     You are aware, of course, that the majority of child molesters
identify as heterosexual, even when the child they are molesting
is the same sex?  Seems like you're playing into the stereotype
that all gay men are child molesters - in fact, the opposite is more
close to the truth.

					-Phil
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phil Lafornara         				1 Microsoft Way         
philipla@microsoft.com				Redmond, WA 98052-6399 
Note:  Microsoft doesn't even _know_ that these are my opinions. So there.
Xref: sparky rec.scouting:2986 alt.discrimination:4284 chi.general:1082 alt.atheism:16963 alt.politics.homosexuality:5880
From: mycroft@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Charles Hannum)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Date: 10 Sep 92 20:37:46 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: /etc/organization


In article <1992Sep8.184437.15749@auto-trol.com> katbea@auto-trol.com
(Kathy Beatty) writes:
>
> But you did not turn out to be gay? But if he had so much influence,
> why didn't you? Could it be <gasp> that you were *BORN* straight...

Out of curiosity, would you consider "handedness" an inborn trait?

-- 
 \   Charles Hannum, mycroft@ai.mit.edu
 /\  White heterosexual atheist male (WHAM) pride!
Xref: sparky rec.scouting:3040 alt.discrimination:4341 chi.general:1107 alt.atheism:17086 alt.politics.homosexuality:5923