From: stead@skadi.CSS.GOV (Richard Stead)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: Subborn Joggers (Re: Stubborn Cyclists)
Date: 14 Oct 92 20:03:48 GMT

In article <1992Oct14.135741.29625@fns-nc1.fns.com>, vib@fns-nc1.fns.com (Victor Bur) writes:
> In article <81592@ut-emx.uucp> klin@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Y. Kevin Lin) writes:
> >In article <1992Oct6.030058.11632@sol.UVic.CA> atovorni@engr.UVic.CA writes:
> >
> >>  Here's my problem: I drive to school every day. The road is full of cars
> >>wall-to-wall. I usually keep right because the left lane jams up when 
> >>somebody makes a left turn. There is a bike trail not 10 meters (30 feet)
> >>to the right of the road. These cyclists with their wide-handlebar mountain
> >>bikes are scary because one of them has to just make a sudden move and he's
> >>under my 245/50/VR16's.
> >>
> >>  Am I the only one who bitches about bikers not using bike trails?
> >
> >Traffic going nuts in downtown during mid-day.  Then you got psychos
> >zipping around in roller-blades.  That's right, crazy idiots cruising
> >in all directions (right or wrong) on the road, not sidewalk, on roller-
> >blades!  Half of them don't even know how to skate!
> >
> >Even though bikers are slow, at least them can 1) keep a straight line,
> >2) go in the same direction with traffic, and 3) not fall down right
> >in front of you (hopefully).
> 
> here in Raleigh, NC I observe a lot of people jogging on the roads (in both
> directions!) at night while nice and EMPTY sidewalks are available.  The
> roads are not lit very well, an it makes it difficult for drivers and
> dangerous for the runners.
> 
> I think it would not aggravate me that much if I know why they are doing
> it.  I am sure there are many readers in this group who are into
> running/jogging, so I want to ask you: what is the logic (or necessity) to
> avoid sidewalks?  Any advantages to run on the road?

I am a runner - there are a number of reasons why someone may run in the road
instead of on the sidewalk.  Some are reasonable, some are probably not.
Personally, I run in the road when the sidewalk is obstructed.  I run 6 to
20 miles in a session, so I cover a lot of ground.  I very often find
sections of sidewalk that have bushes hanging over it, trees not pruned
high enough for me (I'm 6'3"), telephone poles and signs planted right in the
middle of the sidewalk, people walking dogs, etc.  In these cases, I run in the
road because I can't run on the sidewalk.  Some runners are injury prone, and
running on asphalt is noticably gentler than running on concrete (I hate races
that are routed over concrete, because I can feel the difference in a race.
At a normal pace, I don't feel much difference, however).  If it's dark and
the pavement blocks are uneven, a runner may fear tripping over the edge of
a block that's sticking up.  If there are obstructions between the sidewalk
and the road, and the runner has to cross, running along the road until it
is safe to cross is easier than trying to see that from the sidewalk, and then
hoping you can get off the sidewalk when things are clear.  Some runners
might like to avoid going up and down the curbs at every intersection, since
that would cause them to break their stride, and if the blocks are short
would interfere with trying to keep a steady pace.  These would be most of the
reasons why a runner would be in the street when a sidewalk is available.

I am not a roller-blader.  I have seen several roller bladers who are in control
and don't behave strangely and are very polite regarding road and trail use.
I have seen more who I would classify as dangerous.  Even the ones who do
seem to be able in control of their motion often try to take up as much
road/trail/sidewalk as possible with complete disregard for any other users.

I am a biker, and now that I have broken my silence, I'll through in my 2c
on that as well.  I commute by bike daily to work - about 9 miles each way.
I do the majority of that on a bike path, and I like the path, but I don't
think bicyclists should be forced onto paths.  This path is the WO&D rails-
to-trails path in Northern VA.  It is an exceptional path, well-maintained
and smooth, straight and flat for the most part.  It follows I66 inside the
beltway, so there isn't a good road that bikes are permitted on that
is nearby anyway.  What I like most about it is that there are few stops.
Once past Falls Church, there are no stops at all for about five miles.
That's a little like a bike freeway in that sense.  The path is remarkably
safe for a bike path, and during rush hour, there is little pedestrian,
dog, and roller-blade traffic (except afternoon rush hour during the summer).
So I think the path I ride is quite an exception among bike paths in general
in the US.  I ride fast for a cyclist (I can average 22 mph for my commute
on a good day) and would not be able to do that on a lesser path.  Because
I ride reasonably fast, I am not an obstruction to traffic on the road.
On a level road surface, I can maintain 25 mph, which is the speed limit
on most roads around here except a few main arteries.  I have to be in the
middle of the lane when the lane is not wide, or whne there are hazards
along the right hand side of the lane or for triggered lights.  Oh, and
for those complaining about how much VA tax and fees they pay in VA to use
their cars - 1) I have a car, I pay the same fees, 2) I pay $1000's in
VA income tax - that's where road construction and maintainance really comes
from, 3) If you never drove your car, you would still have to pay most of
the fees you pay in VA, so there is no correlation between paying the taxes
and fees for a car and using the roads.  As for rights to the road, cyclists
were using the roads before the auto was invented.  I think cyclists would
have more of a case for kicking the autos off the roads than vice-versa.

IMHO, the anger at cyclists is really a self-image problem certain drivers
have.  They see a cyclist, and recognize that the person is fit, confident,
and doing their part for the environment.  They contrast this with themselves
and it makes them angry.  No driver gets mad at the farmer who has to take
his slow-moving equipment out on the road, completely blocking the lane.
A bicyclist can (and usually does) move over and let the drivers behind
pass, but that won't happen when a combine is in front of you.  Not only
that, but the bicyclist generally goes faster than farm equipment.  It isn't
the delay that's pissing drivers off.  It isn't disobedience to traffic
signals - I see far more cars disobey traffic signals than I have ever
seen for bikes (including twice when the disobedient driver caused an
accident with me, neither serious luckily).  It can only be psychological.
It gets pretty extreme, too.  Case in point:  I was cycling a route that
takes me onto one road, then right back off it less than a block later.
It was during rush hour, and a vehicle in the lane I turned into, but well
behind, suddenly accelerated after I entered the lane.  It was a fancy sports
car, but didn't even get close to me by the time I turned off.  However,
there was a long line of stopped traffic directly ahead.  He had to slam
on the brakes, and squealed off the road into the grass about 40 feet past
the rear of the last stopped car.  That's how far some drivers go in their
illogical hatred of cyclists - he could have easily piled into the line of
traffic (he didn't hit the brakes until after I turned off - it was clear
that he intended to hit or scare me, but never even looked for other traffic).

The lesson on that last one - as a driver, don't be scared of the cyclist -
be scared of your fellow driver that hates cyclists.


--
Richard Stead
Center for Seismic Studies
Arlington, VA
stead@seismo.css.gov
From: ggg@hpsad.sad.hp.com (Gary Goodlund)
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 20:03:23 GMT
Subject: Re: Right turn on red
Organization: HP Signal Analysis Division - Rohnert Park, CA