Date: Sun, 06 Sep 92 22:38:37 +0200
From: ianf@random.se (Ian Feldman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
Apparently-To: rnews@sunet.se
X-Mailer: Fernmail 1.2b2
Organization: random design -- "Opinions, cheaply"
Summary: tricky language this, English
Subject: Re: common Polish-German action (was: Nazi Camps)



  Lech Borkowski choses to debate a sentence of mine that has been
  lifted out of context and quoted by a previous poster.  Rather
  than pay attention to detail and look for my original submission
  in /spool directory at his site (which, undoubtedly, takes some
  motivation, energy and knowledge to achieve) he contends himself
  with trying to win an easy point by accusing me of using
  ridiculous language etc.  Had he tried to understand what the
  original chain of posts was about, the very ones that he hasn't
  cared to examine, he might well have arrived at a wholly different
  and perhaps overall more fruitful conclusions. 

  It is true that the narrow bandwith of the net doesn't lend itself
  well for use of sarcasm, irony etc.  Still, from a purely-sematic
  point of view these are all legitimate means of underscoring a
  point & I happen to like using sarcasm and irony (and advocatus-
  diaboli arguments) in my texts.  Of course, people that aren't
  aware or deny outright lack of proficiency in a language that's
  not their own do not make it easier on themselves by not giving
  others the benefit of the doubt.  It's always easier to pounce on
  a fellow poster rather than research the issue and make sure that
  whatever one is objecting to hasn't been misunderstood nor taken
  out of its proper setting. 

  I invite Lech B.  and other similarly-minded posters to look at
  the original submissions of mine, rather than try to feed flames
  in public for misdeeds that are not of my own making.  I.e. anyone
  seriously imagining that the following out-of-context sentence has
  been written by me in earnest should have his head examined or
  even exchanged for a cabbage ASAP:

if>  When calling the camps "Polish" the editors are merely trying to
if>  be accurate in geographical terms, isn't that right and, besides,
if>  they're not _accusing_ the Poles of having been in charge, are
if>  they? [rhetorical questions both].

  Yet this is precisely what Lech Borkowski --nominally someone with
  a scientific, thus perhaps "exact", background (since he mails from
  an academic institution)-- does to a sentence of mine: he takes it
  at its out-of-context face value and then proceeds to build a
  veritable house of cards upon this his simplistic "Feldman is
  ridiculous" conclusion.  Mw, I wonder who's the more ridiculous
  here of the two of us.


  Further on, he continues along the same thread of commenting upon
  parts of my post that already have been cut by a third person by
  springing the following tired-one-trick-pony act upon us --
  arriving at conclusions where none exist:

if>  Hmmm...  perhaps the Poles, that like to think of themselves as
if>  more "churchy" and adhering to Christian values more than others,
if>  ought to study and then live up to the intentions of the 1966
if>  Polish Episcopate's letter to the German clergy, in which the
if>  Polish bishops forgave the German people for past injustices and
if>  asked to be forgiven for any of Polish own in return.

lb> It is not a matter of forgiveness how you call the German Nazi
lb> camps.  Forgiveness does not imply rewriting the history.  Sorry,
lb> but I don't understand what type of "logic" you are using here, if
lb> any.  With equal success you could claim that the concentration
lb> camps did not exist at all. 

  Well, if you do not understand my reasoning then there must be
  some evening classes in Basic Philosophy 101 somewhere near in your
  vicinity.  Perhaps you could bring this sentence & your response
  up to debate in the class and have it analyzed for sematic content
  and degree of appropriateness in relation to the subject matter. 
  You stand to learn a whole lot.  Satisfaction guaranteed or your
  money back, remember, klient ma zawsze racje.


  Further still, Lechu B. arrives at some very far-reaching and
  wide-of-the-mark conclusions:

lb> The last two paragraphs are quite interesting.  No one here says
lb> that when using the term "German Nazi camps" we are putting an
lb> eternal blame for all generations of Germans to come. 

  Actually, what the whole thread was about was the need for a
  common Polish-German (and perhaps even -Jewish) action to educate
  the media that the camps were "Nazi" or "Nazi-German" and never
  "Polish."  The Polish-Canadian Council quoted in the first article
  (which Lech B. obviously hasn't read) seems to content itself
  with pointing out that the camps were "German" to the media.
  I disputed the effectivness of such an approach and suggested
  an alternative, common-interest course of action.  Of course,
  someone named Feldman cannot be counted upon to come up with
  a balanced point of view, you were entirely right in this
  respect, mister Be.


lb> Now, I really would like to know why Feldman so heartily objects
lb> to calling those camps the German Nazi camps and sugests that we
lb> accept them as "Polish camps"!

  Interesting.  Now Borkowski has succeeded in deluding himself
  that I should have suggested that.  I wonder what feats of
  upside-down logick[tm] might have let him arrive at that?

  Still, since he so eagerly awaits a reply to this posted
  suggest-o-question, here comes the reply he expects: "Feldman 
  does it all by default [whatever "it" might be] because,
  obviously, he's either German or Jewish or both, ergo anti-
  Polish."  How's that for a conclusion straight from Lechu B.
  School of Preemptive Thought, Inc?


lb> It seems to me that you are trying to say that it is a matter
lb> between the Germans and Poles to sort out how to call the
lb> concentration camps and thus implicitly suggest that there was a
lb> common war-time German-Polish action as well. 

  Wow!  Now I am guilty of harboring implicit thoughts that are said
  to have originated in the nether regions of Borkowski's brain as
  well. I never knew I had this power.  OK, lemme see if I can do
  something about it, like manipulating him via Telepax [Telepathic
  Control Transfer Protocol] from afar.  Sending a test message... 
  now. 


__Ian "didja getit?" Feldman