HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: reb@amc.com (Bob Brunjes)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Surplus rifle advice
Date: 13 Aug 92 15:23:30 GMT
Organization: Applied Microsystems, Redmond, WA

In article <1992Aug11.020358.14111@news.eng.convex.com> cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) writes:
#Purpose:  Target shooting, learning more about reloading rifle cartridges.
#Cost:     Under $250.
#
#I'd like to get a rifle that's reasonably accurate--i.e., shoots better
#than I do. I want a caliber that is fun and forgiving to reload. (I've
#reloaded lots of pistol calibers, as well as .223 for my Mini 14.) I'd like
#something that is at least akin to a military caliber (any military,
#anywhere, anytime 8^)--i.e., it should be reasonably hard-hitting, but not
#a big-game rifle.  I also don't want something that's painful to
#shoot--this is supposed to be fun, remember!
#
All replies to this are bound to be highly opinionated, including mine,
but this is a highly personal matter.  Having said that, get a 6mm
Remington in whichever of the Remington bolt actions turns you on.
If you really will not use it for big game, the .244 Remington is the
same cartridge (it's just not rifled with sufficient twist to 
stabilize heavier bullets).

If you want older used rifles, the Remington 722 and 788 are both tack-
drivers.  I think virtually every Remington 700 variation has been
chambered for 6mm.

Recoil is light and pleasant, even for my wife at 5' 2", but muzzle
blast _is_ sharp.  Long-range performance is excellent, and will`
dump coyotes easily at 500 yards +.  With rifle and ammunition
tuning, 1/2 MOA is not unreasonable.  Components are easy to come
by.  6.5x55 is nice, but it doesn't come close.

Essentially, you are moving a 90-grain .24 caliber bullet at about
the same speed a .223 moves a 55-grain .22 caliber bullet.  If you
pay particular attention to bullet construction (at ~3300 FPS, you
really don't _want_ expansion), you'll have what I consider to be
"the magic caliber."  

But that's just an opinion.

Bob Brunjes		Applied Microsystems Corp
			Redmond, WA
			reb@amc.com
From: gribbd@rpi.edu (David Allen Gribble)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: 8 x 58 R Danish Krag Ammo
Date: 14 Aug 92 19:11:45 GMT

I have obtained a M1891 Danish Krag rifle that was "liberated" during
WWII.  Bore and innards are excellent, and finish is 50% there.  No rust!
Anyway, after I find someone to make the appropriate measurement (headspace?),
I would like to find some ammo. According to Cartridges of the World, the
correct round is 8 X 58 R danish Krag.  I saw some at a gun show, but for
$2.50/round I elected to pass.  I've heard that Norma offered this at one
point.  Does anyone have any info about availability of this cartridge, or
anything else I need to know?  Also, I need a rear sight leaf.
From: hays@ssd.intel.com (Kirk Hays)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Surplus rifle advice
Date: 14 Aug 92 19:11:28 GMT
Organization: Intel Supercomputer Systems Division

In article <9208131129.aa09507@claudius.pica.army.mil>, erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID) writes:

|> Consider the SKS. It meets your criteria of being hard-hitting but not
|> abusive, and reloading components get more and more available. Collecting
|> brass may be a problem, as it tends to scatter the empties. Navy Arms
|> will (hopefully :) ) soon have a bolt action in 7.62x39mm.

If you can't wait for Navy Arms, Gun Parts Corp. is currently selling a Mauser
barrel for 7.62x39mm.

I haven't the information about which Mausers it fits in front of me, but if
anyone's interested, drop me a line.

-- 
Kirk Hays - NRA Life.
Start your day with a little civil disobedience.  Call BATF at 1-800-ATF-GUNS or
1-800-RUN-GUNS, tell them what you think of gun grabbers and government employees
that encourage people to narc on their neighbors.  Good for the soul.
From: forda@gtephx.UUCP (Andrew Ford @ AGCS, Phoenix, Arizona)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Holding a perp at gunpoint
Date: 12 Aug 92 13:34:08 GMT
Organization: gte

In article <1992Aug6.170644.17481@btree.uucp>, btree!hale@UCSD.EDU (Bob Hale) writes:
[...good stuff deleted]
# A couple of thoughts of my own: if you had someone call 911 to
# get the police there, make sure that they explain to the police
# that the good guy has the gun.  If possible, keep the line open
# until after the police have arrived and secured the situation.
# If you know the neighbors well enough and they can be depended
# upon for help in extreme cases then discuss this situation with
# them ahead of time so that they can inform the police about
# who the good guy is if this situation should ever occur.

Also add: 

the bad guy seldom runs around in his underware -- don't get dressed 
if you find it necessary to go outside at night (well, don't go out 
fully naked either, but your skivies, pajamas, or a robe will help to 
identify you as a resident who has been brought outside from his sleep 
-- this may help the officers figure out who is the good guy.)

Don't don dark clothing at night, it will only confuse the issue - 
if you must get dressed, then wear something light and preferably
bedroom wear (pajamas/robe/etc), swimwear, or other clothing that
would be reallly odd for a crook to be wearing.

If at all possible, call 911 yourself before engaging the crook:
give them an accurate description of you, what you are wearing
and carrying, and why you are apprehending the suspect.  (A car 
phone might be real handy or a CB call to another CB'er might 
get the info to the cops.)

# Of course, what you are reading here is the opinion of two
# people, neither of whom will accept any liability for acting
# on this information.  If you do get into such a situation
# then what you do is your own responsibility.  End of obligatory
# disclaimer.
# 
Likewise.                    
-- 
"25 States allow anyone to buy a gun, strap it on, and walk down the street with
no permit of any kind: some say it's crazy.  However, 4 out of 5 US murders are 
committed in the other half of the country: so who is crazy?"   -  Andrew Ford
gtephx!forda@enuucp.eas.asu.edu  OR  !uunet!samsung!romed!enuucp!gtephx!forda
From: reid@metis.tti.com (Reid Kneeland)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Top Man Stoppers???
Date: 17 Aug 92 22:33:31 GMT
Organization: Transaction Technology Inc.

In article <1992Aug12.153118.25855@amc.com> reb@amc.com (Bob Brunjes) writes:
#
#I hear lack of overpenetration being used a positive
#factor in "stopping power".  In truth, the shootee does not care if the
#bullet overpenetrates after he is stopped, nor does he care if the
#he was shot by a gun that carried nicely.  He cares only that he was
#hit by a well-place energetic bullet.  

As I heard it, the theory was that a bullet which exits the body is
wasting much of its energy compared to a bullet which comes to rest in
the body (i.e., transfers all of its energy/momentum into the body).
This is why the biggest calibers (such as 44 mag) which over-penetrate
are not empirically the best stoppers.  Since I don't think Marshall
counts misses as failures to stop, the increased difficulty of shooting
big guns accurately doesn't seem to be a factor in those stats.

Anyone want to argue?  (Dumb question, no doubt...)

=====================================================================
Reid Kneeland
reid@ttidca.tti.com  (that's MISTER reid@ttidca.tti.com to you!)
{philabs,psivax,pyramid,quad1,rdlvax,retix,rutgers}!ttidca!reid
Transaction Technology Inc., Santa Monica, CA, USA (310) 450-9111 x2499
The opinions expressed above do not necessarily etc etc...

Never trust a man who can count to 1,023 on his fingers.
From: jburney@seamis1.gsfc.nasa.gov (Jeff Burney)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Stupid shooter tricks
Date: 21 Aug 92 23:10:08 GMT
Organization: Goddard Space Flight Center

rpalmer@Think.COM (Ralph Palmer) writes:

#his uncle and managed to find (or steal) a couple of .22 bullets.  We had
#no firearms available but that didn't stop us.  We put a bullet in a vice,
#aimed it at a sheet of plywood at the other end of the cellar and gave it 
#a whack.  The bullet ricochet off the wall and into the washing machine
#leaving a nice little dent.  His dad figured it out and gave it to us

Ditto here.  We found it and smashed it between two rocks...who knows
where it went.

Sheesh,  God must truly love little kids...
--
Jeff Burney                     | Icky, Icky, Icky, Icky, Ptang,
jburney@seamis1.gsfc.nasa.gov   | Loomfong, Zowzing.
SES, Inc.  301-439-6617         |		- Holy Grail
NASA/Goddard Space Flight Center|
From: gmk@falstaff.MAE.CWRU.EDU (Geoff Kotzar)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 9mm +P ammo
Date: 19 Aug 92 18:42:06 GMT
Article-I.D.: usenet.1992Aug19.154019.2223
Organization: Case Western Reserve University

In article <1992Aug19.002356.21931@smartstar.com> smrtstr!syspb@uu.psi.com (Paul) writes:
#What the heck is a 9mm +P load?  I read some posts where people mention
#it, but my reloading manual doesn't mention it.  I've never seen any
#9mm +P ammo in the store either.  I have seen 38 special +P ammo before.
#The maximum working pressure for the 9mm is 35,000 CUP.  Does this mean
#that the 9mm +P load excedes this limit?  
#
#On a different subject, it seems like every time a new reloading manual
#comes out, the maximum powder loads get lower for the 9mm.  An older
#Speer manual says you can use 10.2 gr of Blue Dot with a 100gr HP bullet.
#A newer manual says that the maximum is 9.7 gr.  I've noticed this with
#other manuals too.  Would this 100 gr HP bullet be considered a +P load?
#These manuals probably are lowering the values for safety and liability
#reasons.  I've asked gunsmiths about reloading, and most of them won't
#even talk about it.  I guess they don't want to get sued by giving bad
#advice.  The publishers of the manuals probably feel the same way.

There is an additional factor that comes into play here. That is product
specifications can change over time. Remember the disclaimers concerning
this very point: specifications may change without notice. Speer's data 
is generated with Speer's bullets and those manufactured when manual #11
was in production are not necessarily identical to the "same" bullet made
when manual #9 was being produced 10 years earlier. Any or all of the
design parameters may differ: core hardness, jacket hardness, jacket
thickness, diameter, seating depth, ect. These will have a direct effect
on the allowable maximum powder charge.

Also, maximum load criteria can change. And I don't mean liability here
but rather  older manuals may not have listed loads developed with pressure
guns but rather commercial firearms. Sierra and to a certain extent Nosler
still do not use pressure barrels.  Also maximum loads depend on the current
crop of firearms available for a cartridge. A specific example is the .357
Magnum. Prior to the introduction of the K-frame S&W's the .357's were loaded
up to the allowable maximum pressure of 46 KCUP. The K-frame guns would not
tolerate a steady diet of ammo at this pressure level and the pressure level
was of the factory ammo and many reloading manuals was reduced to as low as
32 KCUP (DuPont and Lyman). The latest Lyman manual now lists loads for the
.357 that run the full 46 KCUP again. Liability is not the only reason for
the variability of the data.

geoff kotzar
From: erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 9mm major / 9x21 reloading question
Date: 21 Aug 92 23:09:58 GMT


Peter Cash writes:
##In some European countries (Italy, for sure) civilians are not allowed
##to possess pistols in "military" calibres.  Same thing is, I think
##true of Mexico?  9x19 and .45 ACP are military, 7.65 Luger and
##.455 Webley auto are not (even though they once were, but who said
##bureaucrats had to be logical), so you'll still find these cartridges
##in use.
#
#I think this was the reasoning behind making some Browning High-Power
#(P-35) pistols in .30 luger (7.65 Luger). I've only seen one of these (at a
#gun show) it was pretty cheap--about $250 as I recall-- so I was tempted.
#(But managed to resist.) Come to think of it, I did also see a High Power
#with interchangeable 9mm/30 Luger barrels. The 9mm Parabellum is a necked-up
#Luger .30, so conversion between the two ought to be simple. You should be
#able to use the same slide and magazine, I think.

The 7.65mm Parabellum High Powers were apparently specifically made for
markets like Italy. The barrel is smaller diameter than the 9mm and a
bushing is brazed (?) into the front of the slide. Bottom line is that
one cannot simply substitute a 9mm barrel.

Yes I found out the hard way :) What I ended up doing is finding the parts
for a 9mm slide assembly, fairly cheaply. My gunsmith also found that my
HP prefers a heavier recoil spring with my hot Egyptian surplus 9mm ammo.
The magazines are interchangeable, so now to change calibers I just remove
one complete slide unit and put on the other. I know 7.65 Para isn't all
that useful a cartridge, but it is different and I do expect to own a
"Luger" in this caliber. Someday when I have money again :).

#Getting .30 Luger barrel for my High Power would actually be kind of
#interesting.  (I didn't say it was _practical_, I said it was interesting
#8^). Maybe I'll bite if I see one someday.

Looking back I'd have been better off starting with a 9mm HP, probably the
Argentinian, but the thought of a new all-Belgian HP for $300 was just
too tempting.

#Well, the 7.65 Luger was pretty anemic--but the 7.65 Mauser is a horse of
#an entirely different color. When you see one fired, the flash tells you,
#"Hi, I'm a magnum!"

The 1912 or so "Luger" manual reprint I have says the 7.65 and 9 Para had
the same muzzle energy. Of course, 9mm loads have gotten a bit hotter
since then :)

I use Soviet surplus SMG ammo in my 7.62mm Tokarev. Really beats up the hands.
The muzzle flash is most impressive, as is the sight of lead and propellant
residue dust being stirred up on the range floor :)



Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
Protect the Second Amendment - boycott Ruger products
"That's not true," Bill hissed to his lawyer. "The facts are-"
"Don't worry about facts, Bill, no one else here does. Facts can't
alter this case."       -"Bill the Galactic Hero" Harry Harrison
From: burge@qdeck.com (Bill Burge)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Another irritating S&W 586 question
Date: 20 Aug 92 13:07:15 GMT
Organization: Quarterdeck Office Systems, Santa Monica CA

In article <1992Aug18.171558.16451@igor.tamri.com> donb@igor.tamri.com (Don Baldwin) writes:
#So, as long as I'm inundating this group with questions concerning my
#Smith and Wesson 586, I have another question I'd like to ask about
#it.
#
#I noticed, while looking at the original instructions, that it looks
#like the barrel screws right off.  Would it be possible for me to
#remove the 4 inch barrel, replace it with a 6 inch barrel myself?
#For long distance plinking, could I attach a scope to that long barrel
#or would I also have to alter the frame?
#

A gun smith could do it for you.  Some rather minor work might be need to 
make the barrel index at the right point (so the underlug isn't on top
when it's screwed down tight).  They also have the barrel crimped in.
This is why you shouldn't do it yourself.

#I don't believe they ever made a 2 inch barrel for the 586 but
#could a gunsmith cut down a 4 inch barrel, turning it into a quality
#2 incher?
#

I think a 2.5 incher was made for a round butt version, though it may
have been made only in stainless.

#Basically, if it's possible, I'd like to end up with something like
#the Dan Wesson revolvers, which come with a snubbie barrel, a 4 inch
#barrel and a 6 inch target barrel.  Sort of like having 3 guns for a
#bit over the price of one.
#

Sorry,  the crimp needed to hold in place would make this impossible
or a very expensive custom configuration.

Bill	burge@qdeck.com
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Sotgun or rifle for defense?
Date: 15 Aug 92 02:47:31 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

I was thinking that light buckshot loads in a 12 ga would be
preferable to a 20 ga, as the 12 is more versitile, more 
ammo available, and he can use the normal stuff when one is
more accustomed to the 12.

However, I went into the local store, and there _is no_ light
buckshot load that I could see.  In fact most of the ammo is
birdshot, at about $4-8 for 25 rds for either gauge, with a
very limited selection of buck available, and all seemingly
much more expensive than the birdshot: boxes of 5 rds only.

Not good for practice, I thought.    Is this the norm?

Jim D
From: holger@vmars.tuwien.ac.at (Holger Reusch (Dipl. Gerhard + Joe))
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Stupid shooter tricks
Date: 17 Aug 92 15:05:11 GMT
Organization: Technical University Vienna, Dept. for Realtime Systems, AUSTRIA

Well, just to add something less dangerous while nonetheless stupid...

About half a year ago I went to the range with a friend of mine to do
some plinking with my Glock 19.  The guy at the slot next to our slot
shot a .25 Auto.  The FMJ ammo we shot looking basically the same, just
being of different size, I somehow managed to load a .25 cartridge
between two 9 Para cartridges into the Glock's mag.

While shooting happily along, I suddenly encountered a cycling failure.
I did a tap-rack-bang (you know the drill), just to get another
failure.  Fortunately the trigger was locked, although the slide
stopped just some two mm behind its rest position.

When I field-stripped the gun I noticed a barrel obstruction which
resolved itself to a .25 cartridge catapulted into the barrel by
the firing pin.  The next full-size 9mm ctg just hammered the .25
ctg deeper into the barrel.  I thought of what would have happened
if the .25 ctg would have allowed the slide to close & fire the next
ctg, became quite pale and went home to assess the damage.

Fortunately, I was able to get the cartridge out of the barrel with
a woodstick.  No visible scars in the barrel remain.  The .25 cartridge
now resides on my desktop right under the inscription "Shit happens!".

Guys, you can never be too careful!  Sh*t happens when you least expect
it.
-- 
| Holger Reusch                             |
| Technical University of Vienna, Austria <-+--- No kangaroos here,
| Dept. for Real-Time Systems               |    sorry!
| holger@vmars.tuwien.ac.at                 |

[MODERATOR:  Long ago I had one like this.  Violated that rule on the
NRA chart about not having more than one kind of ammo out at the same
time, right?  Had my Beretta 92 out at the same time as a gov't 1911.
Switched from the 9mm to the .45, inserted a mag, dropped the slide,
and, after I held the pistol at the ready position for a few seconds
in preparation for firing, was very surprized/embarassed to have an
entire 9mm cartridge dribble out the front end of the Colt.... *sigh*
Took a while to live that one down....]
From: burge@qdeck.com (Bill Burge)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: S&W 586 problem
Date: 18 Aug 92 21:37:13 GMT
Organization: Quarterdeck Office Systems, Santa Monica CA

In article <1992Aug17.180306.26253@igor.tamri.com> donb@igor.tamri.com (Don Baldwin) writes:
#A few nights ago, I had my 586 out for drt firing and, when I opened the
#action to load snap caps (muzzle pointed at the ground), the arm that swings
#out the cylinder, and the cylinder, fell off into my hand.  That had never
#happened before, so I figured that there was a problem.
#
#Has anyone else out there with a 586 (or other Smith revolver) had that
#problem before?  Does it sound like something I can fix myself or do I
#need to look up a Northern CA S&W approved gunsmith?  If so, would that
#be expensive?
#
#Thanks,
#
#
#

Sounds like the screw that hold in the crane (the arm that holds the cylinder)
has either broken or backed out a little.  It is the screw on the right side
(as the gun is pointed downrange) that is the most toward the end of the barrel but still on the frame.  Make sure it is snug.  It has an inthreaded bit on
the end that fits in a channel in the crane.  Make sure the channel is ok
and that someone (during reassmble hasn't swapped the screw with the bit of
unthreaded area with one of the other sideplate screws.

Otherwise find the smith.

Bill	burge@qdeck.com
From: dstine@cisco.com (David Stine)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Stupid shooter tricks
Date: 21 Aug 92 12:59:37 GMT
Organization: BitBashers, Ltd.

In article <9208201923.AA15438@flubber.cs.UMD.EDU> amirza@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Anmar Caves) writes:
#
#Loading my Winchester .30-30.  Jack the lever, bang!  Oops.
#Fortunately the muzzle was pointed in a safe direction.  What went
#wrong?  Had my finger in the trigger guard.  To my credit, it is very
#easy to do this with this particular gun if you don't pay attention.
#Lesson learned:  *always* pay attention, and always keep the damned
#muzzle well away from anything you don't want to hurt or kill.

I've found when using a '94 that it is good policy to put your trigger finger
in or under the lever loop when you're cycling the action. The 94 is a fun
little carbine to shoot, but 100 years ago, they weren't big on safety
features. 

Come to think of it, there weren't that many lawyers, either...

dsa


-- 
Diplomacy is the art of saying "Nice doggie" until you can find a rock.
	-- Will Rogers
From: hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Stupid Shooter Tricks
Date: 21 Aug 92 03:36:24 GMT
Organization: The Cat Factory

In article <9208181231.AA17760@mimsy.cs.UMD.EDU> C08926RC@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu (Rob) writes:

}... another guy let me shoot his 4" barrelled .44 Magnum revolver with
}wood grips.  I cupped my right hand under the grip, aimed and pulled
}the trigger.  I felt pain in my right hand, looked and noticed that I
}now had a nice gash in my hand that was shaped like the bottom of
}the grip.
}
}I now hold hard-kicking guns differently....

Reminds me of an incident from the past weekend when I went shooting with
some friends.

One of them, Henry, brought along an alloy frame .44 snub-nosed revolver,
also with wood grips.  I can't imagine why anyone would want, or even
make, such a gun.  Shooting it _hurts_.  It's no fun at all.  Neither is
it accurate enough to be useful at anything beyond point blank range.
(Henry got it for $5 from a man who bought it, fired 5 rounds through it
and never wanted to use it again.  After firing 5 rounds myself, I
understood completely and agreed).

At some point, someone else's non-gun-familiar-but-interested SO came by
and noticed our small "toy" guns (I had the Beretta Minx with me).  Henry
winked at me and offered to let her shoot the .44.  My stupid maneuver of
the day was letting him get away with it without stopping or, at least,
warning her.

She fired one shot, screamed, slammed the gun down and stalked off.  Henry
thought it was hilarious.

The Real(tm) stupidity here is that he probably alienated a potential ally
forever.  That was certainly no way to introduce a neophyte to shooting.
(I did get her to try the Beretta later, so at least she knows not all
guns are wrist snappers).

The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com)
Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp                   Turn the rascals out!
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.   (310) 450-9111, x2483     No incumbents in '92!
Santa Monica, CA  90405
From: qui@aus.hf.intel.com (qui hoang)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: CUSTOM COLT PYTHON for sale or trade
Date: 17 Aug 92 22:34:22 GMT

Colt Python NEW IN BOX (1991) with 6" barrel, Royal Blue finish with walnut
target style grips.
Colt Custom Gun Shop has done the following:
    - Hand Tuning: action has been hand honed to produce a single action
                   pull of < 2.5 lbs., and a double action pull of < 7 lbs.
                   (this is much better than the excellent standard action.)
    - Colt Gold Cup Elliason sights has been installed.

$600 or best offer, from my FFL to your FFL. Local buyer will be given special
attention. Current retail for a standard Python is $750.

Trade is also possible, for example:
    - Sig 22x or HK P7 : even trade
    - FN-FAL           : Python + $ 900
    - Sig 210          :        + $1000
    - ???

Email or give me a call at (503)696-4368
Thank you.