From: stingray@unlisys.in-berlin.de (Christian Lampl)
Subject: Re: Jews For Germans
Organization: Unlimited Surprise Systems, Berlin
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 16:23:07 GMT

mstern@wam.umd.edu (Michael Stern) writes:

>IThough the number of people who _identify_ themselves with
>the Nazis is indeed small, the number of those who do not 
>demonstrate, loot or beat up foreigners yet share their ideas
>regarding German supremacy is quite large.  Let's
>face it - extreme nationalism and aspirations to global hegemony
>have a prominent place in German history.  The recent news from
>Germany demonstrate that there now exists an opportunity for
>those ideas to be brought to the forefront again.  That, IMHO,
>is a dangerous trend.
So you say that the majority of Germans is nationalistic
and wants a supirior position in the world ?
Then I call you a liar.
If you tell me that there are some idiots, who have nothing
learned from history and who become public because of their
actions I say this is true.
But again: There will always and everywhere be such idiots.
An idiot is an idiot. He isn't a more idiotic idiot just
because he is a german idiot.

>>
>>Well, I think the German soldiers who did those cruel things 
>>won't tell it. Just like the Russian soldiers who raped german 
>>women won't tell it to their children as a bed-time story.
>>My grandfather was a member of the SS and a long time he never
>>talked with me about it, because he was afraid I would
>>judge him just because of the fact he was an SS member and
>>not because of his deeds
>Precisely!  Maybe if former SS henchmen would tell the truth to
>their children and grandchildren, these offspring would realize
>the magnitude of the horror that their family members one unleashed
>upon the world, and we would not be going through the re-birth ofteh
>Nazi school of thought. 
It is well known what members of the SS did during WW II, like
it is known what members of other armys had done during this
or other wars.
I tried to explain to ya that there certainly where cruel people
in the German army and because of the system mostly they were 
in major positions. That doesn't mean that every member of the
army was a cruel person. In fact then because of the compulsary 
military service every German would have been a cruel person.
If you claim this I will call you a Nazi and I don't want
to know what for example Hans Scholl would say about that.
He himself was in the army at the russian front.

>>At the age of 17 he had problems with his parents and so he he joined the
>>army to escape from home. I don't think that he ever 
>>changed his mind about murdering people or raping 
>>women just because he joined the army. There were not more
>>cruel people in Germany from 1932 - 1945 than anywhere else.

>I disagree.  When it came to non-Aryans (Jews, Gypsies, etc),
>germans of that era were VERY cruel.  There have been plenty of
>documented evidence (which I will provide sources to, if you wish)
>of average middle-class Germans turning their longtime Jewish
>friends into teh Gestapo.  I do not need to tell you what happened
>to those people.  In my view, that qualifies as utmost cruelty.
No, you don't need to tell me what happend to them.
What do you want to say me ?
If you look to Jugoslavia or Chile there are cruel people
and tortures and neighbours who turn their friends 
to the secret police.
You will find such people in every dictatoric state.
Germany was no exception. But there were people, too,
who hid their friends or helped them to escape.
These people were and will always be in a minority because
of the fear the system uses. 
I'm a German. Please tell me in which way I'm different
from 17 year old people from other countries.

>>In fact I think there are much less Germans who hate Jews
>>nowadays than Jews who hate Germans.
>>I don't know why people hate me for things somebody else
>>did half a century ago.

>If your grandfather (the SS officer) captured my grandfather
>(the partisan peasant) during WW-2, he probably would have 
>tortured and killed him.  Consequently, I would not be here
>to debate with you.  Granted, to you that probably means nothing.
>But to me it is a very sobering and frightening perspective.
>I do not hate you - I pity you, and your people who in 50 years
>have not reconciled themselves with the horrors that were once 
>committed, and seem hellbent on repeating them all pver again.
>t
Well, I know my grandfather much better than you, I think,
and I'm quite sure that if your grandfather was already
a prisoner he wouldn't have killed him.
I think he could have killed him if there was a fight
and your grandfather met my grandfather as enemy.
Without knowing each other both would have tried
to kill each other just because they were soldiers
of different sides. That's war.
Do you want to tell me that it would have been a
good thing if your grandfather killed mine, just
because mine was a German soldier ? I'm happy
that neither my grandfather nor your was killed 
in the war.
I don't feel responsible for actions someone did
50 years ago. I'm responsible for the things I do 
now.

Bye,
  Christian

-- 
"There're so many different world, so many different suns,
 but we have just one world, though we live in different ones"
- Dire Straits "Brothers in arms"
Christian Lampl - stingray@unlisys.in-berlin.de - aka Ray at the IRC
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.arabic,talk.politics.mideast