HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Just Curious
From: syco508@otago.ac.nz
Date: 28 Dec 92 12:32:24 +1300
Organization: University of Otago, Dunedin, New Zealand


" Combat Sports In the Ancient World"  is an intresting book on the subject
but mainly concentrates on the Greeks, due to the fact that we know more
about them.  I have read, in a book on duellng whose name I can't rember,
that during the late middle ages every European town had it's own school
of fighting.  Sounded a lot like the different commercial MA schoools 
around now.  The same book talked about Irish stick fighting.  I want
to follow that up as I know an Irish folk song about fighting in Ireland
that talks about the Hero's teacher and briefly comments on his training.

A lot of fighting certainly went on in Europe but little of the styles
and training methods have come down to us.  As some one has alresdy
commented this is probably due to the fact that `pesants' and/or 
conqured peoples, such as the  Irish, Cornish, Scottish etc. were
carrying on these traditions as part of their native culture.  This
of course was not to be encouraged.  

I would be very intrested if anyone has any information on European
styles and training methods.


                                J. P. Hegarty  syco508@otago.ac.nz
From: jfrost@crash.cts.com (Julian Frost)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Finishing techniques
Date: 30 Dec 92 06:56:41 GMT
Organization: CTS Network Services (crash, ctsnet), El Cajon, CA

In article <1992Dec29.230528.17022@cs.mun.ca> matthew@cs.mun.ca (Matthew J. Newhook) writes:
>osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X) writes:
>.... My right hand now either pushes the hand
>towards the ground in a circular motion, or pushes the fingers into the
>wrist.  The latter being quite painful, and rather nasty, especially if
>uke has already comitted to an 'over-the-top' breakfall.
>

Back to my earlier posting, regarding "Dangers In Falling"... if Uke
is reacting to Nage's movements (ie Taking UKEMI), he should only be
"comitted" to taking an *appropriate* ukemi. That is, if he has
already decided what ukemi he is going to take, before he has had the
technique applied to him, then he is *anticipating* and NOT doing
correct ukemi (then he will get injured).  Correct Ukemi implies
reacting to what is happening in an appropriate manner (walking away
is also ukemi of one kind, a backward roll is another, a "high fall"
is yet another).

>Now, whether or not _you_ choose to call this technique Kote Gaeshi is
>of no concern to me.   All of the Aikido clubs I have practiced with
>(as well as the masters of the art) refer to this technique as kote
>gaeshi, so I imagine for my general well being and lack of confusion
>when _I_ practice it would be better for me to refer to this technique
>as kote gaeshi.
>
>>	-Andy V.
Yes, I agree!  Kote means wrist, Gaeshi means twist, so let's call it
kote gaeshi!!

Julian
From: cobra@ziggys.cts.com 619/262-6384 (Ron Lee)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Savate
Date: 26 Dec 92 20:46:26 GMT
Organization: Ziggy's Den Of Iniquity, East of East SD CA

Stovall@f88.n106.z1.fidonet.org (Stovall) writes:

} PH>Apparently the practice of foot-fighting arose among the rougher
} PH>elements of French society around 1800, for reasons that are
} PH>unclear; around 1820, someone...systematized this practice...
} 
} It seems I read somewhere that it was a serious offense to strike
} someone with your hand back then, so the baser elements developed
} a form of foot fighting. Then again, the story might be apocryphal.
} 
} Happy holidays,
} 
} Tom
} 
} ___
}  X SLMR 2.1a X ...noli permetere illigetimi carborundum
} 

Back when I was in High School, I was a Green Belt in karate and joined 
the fencing club at the High School....
I had asked the instructor (jokingly) why I couldn't parry an attack
and kick my opponent in the chest.  She told me that Savate was the 
art I was thinking of, but it wasn't allowed on competitive strips...

Savate was developed with the latter developments of Sword-making 
technology, when the metal was strong enough to be relatively thin
and narrow, yet still hold an edge or block a strike.  Another advantage
was that, after an attempted strike, the weight of the weapon wouldn't
drag it's wielder off balance and staggering ten yards away....

With greater balance under control, it was easy enough to start engaging
the feet for more than simply making sure the body stayed off the ground.
Kicking was added to the "game".  

The hands are not used in Savate (actually, they are now, but not 
emphasized) because it is assumed (by tradition?) that the Savateur 
(smirk) is holding a blade in his hands (saber/sabre, rapier...perhaps
also a main gauche).  By a similar assumption, kicks in Savate are
typically circular -- a straight, thrusting kick is likely to end up
with your foot spitted on your opponents blade!

For a great example of this type of swordplay, take a look at 
_The Three Musketeers_ and _The Four Musketeers_ both classic
films with the early work of Richard Chamberlain, Charlton Heston, 
and a whole host of great actors.  It shows some early Savate-ish
fighting, along with the usage of main gauche and weighted cloak.
This is how fencing was really done, not the sport stuff on the narrow 
strip!


              cobra@ziggys.cts.com - BBS (619)262-6384
                 Ziggy's Den Of Iniquity
From: todd@reed.edu (Todd Ellner)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Little pig, little pig, let me come in...
Date: 24 Dec 92 06:15:19 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Dec24.061519.28698
Organization: Reed College, Portland, Oregon

So, let's see. The Psycho-ex-Boyfriend is trying to break down the door
and do our hero/ine. What do you do? This could connect to the finishing
techniques discussion. It could be a really good reason to leave by the
back door/window/wall and call the cops or a couple of friends from a
nearby phone. If neither of these is practical I think it would be an
excellent, nay, textbook case of "Well officer, he was breaking into my
house. I was in fear for my life, and I couldn't get away. Shucks, I just
had to {shoot|knife|behead|baseball bat} him as he came in." I really don't
think the DA would prosecute. If you were feeling generous you could stand
ten feet back from the door with the shotgun pointed at him and give him a
chance to turn around and run. If not, then whacking him from ambush as he
stepped through the doorway is absolutely appropriate.
-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Ellner  todd@reed.edu 
"What has the study of biology taught you about the Creator Dr. Haldane?"
JBS Haldane:"I'm not sure, but He seems to be inordinately fond of beetles."
From: elliott.chapin@canrem.com (elliott chapin)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: more questions
Date: 27 Dec 92 14:59:47 GMT
Reply-To: "elliott chapin" <elliott.chapin@canrem.com>
Distribution: rec
Organization: Canada Remote Systems

AB>each other as boxer usually do.  Attacker kicks defender in midsection with
AB>rear foot.  Defender drops lead hand to down to deflect kick.  Attacker steps
AB>in and punches the defender, who dropped his guard deflecting the kick . ???

Defender strikes with other hand *while* deflecting kick - attacker has
less opportunity for a clean followup.

AB>Second Question:  What's a good way to improve hand speed the easy way
AB>(i.e. not "after being punched 100 times you'll be able to block it") ?

Easy way???  Go for the preconditions of speed - relaxation, etc., not
getting in your own way by using opposing muscle groups, deciding how
you're going to generate power, ...

Elliott Chapin
---
 ~ DeLuxe} 1.12 #4315 ~ elliott.chapin@canrem.com
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
From: acharya@HYDRA.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Finishing techniques
Date: 23 Dec 1992 15:15:14 GMT
Organization: Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology
Distribution: usa
Reply-To: acharya@HYDRA.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU
NNTP-Posting-Host: hydra.rose-hulman.edu

In article <1992Dec22.213138.11713@esseye.si.com>, moore@esseye.si.com (David Moore) writes:
>I'm lost! My knowledge of Aiki(do) indicates that locks do not (I repeat
>do not) rely on pain for effectiveness. If you've been taught that, then
>I believe someone is feeding you @#$%. Yes, pain is nice, but the technique
>alone should be sufficient. By the way, you can't just stand there with

i agree. i think the pain should be transitory and not the end of the
technique. even in the case of sankyo or nikkyo i try to move from the hold to
either a pin or a throw, in other words i try to keep uke moving (and off
balance).

-mukund

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: kevin@pages.com (Kevin Sven Berg)
Subject: Re: More ki/qi/chi & science
Organization: Banzai Research Institute
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 22:52:50 GMT

In article <1h53slINN65m@usenet.pa.dec.com> stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com (Todd I.  
Stark) writes:
> 
> Case in point, there is a rich tradition of philosophers on the European 
> continent (especially France and Germany) who would have no problem with the 
> notion of Ki, and even some (though not all) who also would support the value 
> of scientific inquiry.   The failure of Ki to be the dominant topic of
> interest in scientific journals in most fields is hardly a matter
> of ideological oversight.  Similar concepts have arisen many, many times
> in different forms over time.  Those that have been discredited and
> remain so were mostly discredited on specifics, not on general principle.
> 

What may be of interest to many in this newsgroup, is where to start
looking for such references. Perhaps some of the European readers can
be of some assistance here. (???)

> As a thought exercise, list the phenomena associated with Ki and how they are 
> produced, and express what exactly the Ki hypothesis is in mathematical terms 
> and then try to devise experiments to test aspects of the Ki hypothesis 
> against competing ones.  

This action sounds promising. At least level headed :-) From the descriptions
mentioned within rec.MA it sounds like we have several.

> I suspect that at the point of the description, you'll discover why 
> this concept doesn't appear intact in many technical journals.  They
> don't organize their experience in the same manner as the traditional
> Chinese healer.

Is this due to the language of description/manipulation (Mathematics)?
The experiential sense is not present in Mathematics, whereas the
Chinese healer is at least sympathetic to a degree of mysticism
(knowledge via direct subjective experience); otherwise s/he practices
by prior example.

> The best you can do is test for anomalies and then try to put a 
> new hypothesis together in properly precise mathematical terms to explain 
> them.   I wouldn't be surprised if at some point it might resemble Ki
> in many ways, and not by coincidence.  ;-)
> 

I wonder what it would take for the opposite to be true: could one 
come to a mystical understanding of reality (in this case ki)
through Mathematics. I suppose that one's even more weird than puting
chi on a scale...

Waiter, Check please...

Kevin
-- 
Kevin Sven Berg               /    /    /    /  P /  a /  g /  e /  s
kevin@pages.com              /    /    /    /    /    /    /    / 
Pages Software Inc.         /    /    /    /    /    /    /    /   
San Diego, CA.               `    `    `    `    `    `    `    `
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: drury@helix.nih.gov (Richard Drury)
Subject: Re: Bear Hug defense
Organization: National Institutes of Health
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1992 19:41:06 GMT

jchristian@desire.wright.edu writes:
>[bearhug stuff deleted]
>It's not impossible.  Our instructor can get out anytime he wants.  I can get
>out about 20% of the time.  It's just very difficult.

So, it seems that your instructor is doing something different
from the rest of you.  What is it?  How come he doesn't just
show you?
--
Richard A. Drury
drury@helix.nih.gov
From: daveer@hplsla.hp.com (Dave Rasmussen)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 18:24:50 GMT
Subject: assessing danger (was finishing techniques)
Organization: HP Lake Stevens, WA
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts

>What techniques would you use if you _really_ had to stop someone?
>If the proverbial 7'-300lb-PCP using-steroid monkey-whose spent half
>his life in Folsom prison-and wants to rip your lungs out was in the
>alley with you and you could set up one or two shots what would they
>be? No guns or knives allowed.
>
>I know that it depends on the situation, the range, and a lot of other
>things and that no one with any sense would hit just once or twice; what
>are the first couple techniques that come to mind?

The answers to this question have been interesting, but it brings up 
another question in my mind. Given foreknowledge that someone is 
that dangerous to begin with, devastating techniques seem justified. 

My question is: If you are faced with the 7'-300lb assailant, but don't know
his intentions nor what he may be on, how do you order your defense? 
Pardon my naivete, but how can you tell he's on PCP? How do you know 
whether he just wants to rough someone up or if he's a psycho-sociopath with
homicide on his mind?

Assume you are bound by conscience and/or law to do the least possible 
damage to stop the attack. You don't know if an arm-bar or shot to the 
solar-plexus, etc. will work or not until you've tried it.

This is all academic to my now as my training is still elementary. I would 
probably try:
   1. run like the wind
   2. if this is ineffective, disable his knees, return to step 1.

  Dave
From: jlockha@eis.calstate.edu (Jame A Lockhart)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Just Curious...
Date: 23 Dec 92 09:34:05 GMT
Organization: Calif State Univ/Electronic Information Services

drury@helix.nih.gov (Richard Drury) writes:
> hahn@plugh.network.com (Peter Hahn) writes:
> >Most every account I've seen agrees that modern day boxing was developed
> >by English fencing masters around the end of the eighteenth century, and
> >was, initially, sort of an empty-hand version of their sword-and-buckler
> >style.
> 
> What's the "buckler" in sword-and-buckler?
> --
> Richard A. Drury
> drury@helix.nih.gov

I always thought a buckler was merely a shield.  Possibly with ridges on
it to "buckle" the opponents sword...yes...no?
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: jfrost@crash.cts.com (Julian Frost)
Subject: Re: Finishing techniques
Organization: CTS Network Services (crash, ctsnet), El Cajon, CA
Date: 30 Dec 92 10:18:25 PST

In article <1hs071INNlkv@pith.uoregon.edu> toman@bovine.uoregon.edu (J. Toman) writes:
>the word 'corruption' is a bit strong for me. The problem with working
>kote gaeshi at the wrist is that it doesn't affect the uke's center.
>You can stand there and thrash on one wrist, but if they still have 
>their balance they can attack with the other hand.

Arrgggh!!!  What a load of bunk!!  Think back to first principles of
Aikido, Guys!!  Number 1, get off the line of attack, Number 2, Break
Uke's BALANCE (by extending his motion), Number 3,....

If you don't practise with Numbers 1 & 2 in mind, you'll NEVER be able
to get ANY aikido technique to work!  YOU should ALWAYS be attacking
uke's center, whether you grapb the wrist, forearm, elbow, or
whatever! If you can't do this, that's fine, you (like me) need more
training, but don't say that what is being taught is a corruption!  It
isn't!


>Working it on the kote , which I was taught is about half of the forearm
>starting at the wrist, forces the affected elbow in towards the centerline,
>which causes all sorts of postural changes in ukes shoulders and spine 
>and (you guessed it) strongly affects uke's center. The hand (and the wrist 
>between the hand and kote) is just used as a crank, useful but not necessary.
>It's more difficult to counter this because it's draws more of uke's body 
>into the technique.

See above!  If you're using the wrist correctly, his center WILL be
affected in the way you describe.  Practise, practise, practise!!

My aikido is not perfect, never said (or thought) it was.  But let's
try to be true to the real thing!  Find a teacher who studied under O
Sensei, and do what he shows!  If there isn't such a Sensei near you,
find a long time student of one (someone who doesn't corrupt
techniques because s/he doesn't "like" the technique, or "can't do it
well").  Julian
From: robinson@cogsci.Berkeley.EDU (Michael Robinson)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Thai kickboxing
Date: 29 Dec 1992 21:57:50 GMT
Organization: Institute of Cognitive Studies, U.C. Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: cogsci.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Dec29.194931.3472@reed.edu> todd@reed.edu (Todd Ellner) writes:
>Other respondents have said that Thai boxing is crude and primitive and that
>you can only practice it until you are about 25. With all due respect, I must
>say that they are full of little round things like goats leave.

Now, now, I said no such thing.

The original question was, "If muay Thai fighters can kick booty in open
tournaments, then why would anyone study anything else?"

As you say yourself:

>Again, if you are crazy enough to step [in and] fight professionally your
>body will get used up pretty quickly, say two or three years,

That's all.

>but if it is the training you want you can do that for as long as you want. 

I have no doubt.


-- 
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Michael Robinson                          UUCP:   ucbvax!cogsci!robinson
                                        INTERNET: robinson@cogsci.berkeley.edu
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: fate@eskimo.com (Craig Stykel)
Subject: Re: Ninjutsu -- info please
Organization: -> ESKIMO NORTH (206) For-Ever <-
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 03:55:48 GMT

patrick@actrix.gen.nz (Pat Cain) writes:
> I have a friend doing Ninjutsu who wants me to try it.  I've never
> done any martial arts before and am interested to know how it compares
> to other martial arts and anything about it -- is the chance of
> injury higher, is it a very popular martial art?
> 
> Pat.
> -- 
> Pat Cain, PO Box 2060, Wellington, NZ  ()  em:
cain_p@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz
Well, I've studied it for some time, and it is like other martial arts.
It has ideas, and studies like other arts.
It is up to you if it is right for you...
It would not hurt you to go and look at it.
One time in the dojo, would be an enlightening experience.
give it a shot..
 fate@eskimo.com
From: pauli@uniblab.asd.sgi.com (Paul Isaacs)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: t'ai chi in the Berkeley/Oakland area
Date: 29 Dec 1992 21:09:24 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: uniblab.asd.sgi.com


Can anyone recommend a T'ai Chi 
instructor or school in the Berkeley/Oakland area?



pauli.
--
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  "this American artist could just as easily have made this piece of marble
   into a statue of George Washington"
      -- Pat Robertson, showing a slide of a Henry Moore sculpture. Part of
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: quixote@cix.compulink.co.uk (Aurelio Barranco)
Subject: Re: Stupid Religious Views
Reply-To: quixote@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 12:55:00 +0000


> 
> Research your Aikido history!!  Morihei Ueshiba, the Founder of Aikido
> was a devout believer in Shinto.  He later followed Deguchi Onnisaburo
> in the Omotokyo religion.  Some dojos begin by clapping their hands
> before doing the bow to O Sensei -- this is a Shinto tradition
> (Buddhists rub hands, Shintoists clap).

It was explained to me that we clap our hands to dispel our ego.
After all we wouldn't want anything as big and heavy as an ego to
slow us down while we break someones arms would we :)
But seriously now .... I think the lack of competetiveness in
training is probably a shinto thing.


Aurelio
From: farant@terapin.com (Faran Thomason)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Movie-Swordsman in Double Flag-Town
Date: 23 Dec 92 16:35:14 PST
Organization: BBS


The film Swordsman in Double Flg town will be in San Francisco's Chinatown. Is
this film any good ? Is there any relation between this and the Tsui Hark
Swordsman films ??
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: shrum@eos.arc.nasa.gov (Rick Shrum)
Subject: Re: Bruce Tegner
Organization: NASA Ames Res. Ctr, Calif.
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 17:16:11 GMT

In article <FoT1VB1w165w@bluemoon.use.com> lchurch2@bluemoon.use.com (Leonard Church) writes:
>I ran across this name when I was doing some research on an article I am 
>writing and found some interesting things...The FIRST MA'er to appear on 
>National Television in the United States was Bruce Tegner and Ed Parker. 

  Bruce T. was also the auther of several 
>"how-to-books" on the martial arts including: Karate, Chinese Boxing, 
>Savate, Fencing, and Collegiate <spell checker doesn't work??> Wrestling.  


I noticed this too. Whenever a certain MA came into vogue, *darned* if
Bruce wasn't an expert in that one too!


                                    R ****
                                     I
                                      C
                                  **** K


                        O                      O
	               <|\_  * * * *          <|> 
                       / \                    / \
                                    


Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: hines@left.fishkill.ibm.com (Charles K. Hines)
Subject: Re: Newbies Question: Joint Locking
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 92 14:11:37 GMT
Distribution: ba
Reply-To: hinesc@fshvmfk1.vnet.ibm.com
Organization: IBM Poughkeepsie, NY



>Yes.  Please describe a few basic warmup exercises.

Ok, I'll give it a shot...

For the wrists:
  1) "Kotegaeshi" (since some people were 'discussing' this earlier)
      hold up left hand, palm to your body at about shoulder level.
      place thumb of right hand beneath knuckle of left hand ring finger.
      wrap fingers around, grabbing base of left hand thumb.
      now twist left hand by pushing w/ right thumb & pulling w/ fingers while
        lowering both hands towards your center (solar plexus).
      repeat 10 times, then mirror image for right hand.

  2) "Nikkyo"
      hold left hand in front of your center, palm to floor.
      place palm of right hand over back of left, grasping it.
      (make sure that your not grabbing above the base of the fingers)
      raise both hands to chest, bending left wrist by pushing it towards
        left forearm, then lower & straighten it again.
      repeat 10 times, then mirror for right.

  3) "Sankyo" (this one is a little harder to describe)
      hold left in front of you, chest height, thumb down, palm facing left.
      grasp back of hand w/ right hand, thumb over top, fingers wrapped 
        around left thumb.
      bring left hand toward you (in upward circular motion) while using 
        right hand to point left hand fingers towards ceiling.
      return to starting position & repeat 10 times, mirrored for right.

  4) after doing these, let hands hang limp & shake them around to loosen them
       up and get the blood flowing again.

As a side note, these warmups are named for the by each of the aikido 
arm/wrist techniques that works the same muscles/tendons that are being
stretched.

For the shoulders:
  5) let arms hang down by your sides, and swing them up in big circles 
       over your head, then back down, first forwards, then backwards.
     (this loosens the shoulders)

For the wrist and elbow (a little):
  6) hold left hand palm up in front of you.
     grasp fingers of left hand w/ right hand, right thumb under left knuckles.
     bend fingers back (down) while lifting hand up, out, then down, ending
       with arm fully extended (careful _not_ to hyper-extend the elbow) and
       hold it there.
     repeat & mirror for right.

Note, anywhere I mention "knuckles" I'm refering to the ones where the fingers
meet the rest of the hands.

Hope this helps, as these aren't the easiest to describe in words!

Chuck Hines
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts