From: kanefsky@halcyon.com (Steve Kanefsky)
Subject: Re: Performas, LCII's and questions!
Keywords: Performa, LCII, fpu, orphan-computer
Organization: The 23:00 News and Mail Service
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 19:43:18 GMT

I feel the need to correct a lot of incorrect statements in this post:

In article <1aqgodINN43t@agate.berkeley.edu> daver@sunspot.ssl.berkeley.edu (David Ray) writes:
>In article <1992Oct5.205928.28667@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> hades@Dartmouth.Edu writes:

>>What are you talking about in respect to 32-bit clean? The LCII
>>has always been a 32-bit clean machine.
>
>I think he is referring to the fact that in 32 bit mode, the LCII runs at
>1/2 the clock speed to handle 32 bit data on the 16 bit bus. It will
>run 32-bit mode (this is referred to as "32-bit clean") but it does so at
>1/2 the speed.

First of all, "32-bit mode" and "32-bit clean" have nothing to do with a
16-bit versus 32-pit data path.  Whether or not you run in 32-bit mode,
the LCII/P400 can only transfer 16 bits of data from memory to the CPU
(or vice versa) at a time.  The CPU does not run at "1/2 the clock
speed", it just takes an extra clock cycle to transfer 32 bits of data
as opposed to 16.  Note that *all* Macs have wait states, so even a IIfx
or a Quadra has the CPU sitting idle waiting for memory to get ready.
Any Mac that doesn't require 80ns RAM or faster (including the SE/30,
II, IIx, IIcx, IIsi, etc.) actually has *two* wait states, so the CPU sits
idle for two cycles before it can access memory.  I believe the LC/LC II
also fall into this category, so my understanding is that it takes the
SE/30 three cycles to read 32 bits from memory (two wait states plus one
cycle to read the memory into a register), while it takes the LC/LC II four
cycles (two wait states plus two cycles to read the 32 bits into a
register).  That's only 1/3 longer, rather than twice as long.  And if the
data is in the 68030's built-in cache (which it is much of the time), then 
there are no wait states and the 16-bit data path isn't even used.   Add
an accelerator board with an external cache, and the data is in the
cache so often that the 16-bit data path barely makes any difference at
all (an LC with a DayStar PowerCache, for example, runs at virtually
the same speed as a II, IIx, IIcx, or IIsi with the same PowerCache).


>Is this the same on the Performa?

The Performa 400 *is* the LCII, plain and simple.


>To see a list of "gotchas" read the latest "vaporware" article telling
>Apple's (rumored) long-term plans for their computers in the next 2 years.
>Early next year it is expected that Apple will have an LC-like computer
>with 32 bit bus, 25 MHz 60030, which will replace the current LCII, SI and CI.
>A year later, a computer that will be 30-60 times faster than the LCII.

30-60?  You've got to be kidding.  Even if the CPU was that fast, the
memory and disk would slow the computer down enough so you wouldn't get
anything near 30-60 times improvement in real performance.


>I don't think you can escape the "gotcha" mentality of Apple. I own an LCII
>and I'm loving it- and hating it. My advice is, buy a computer whan you know
>you are going to get a lot of use out of it. No matter when you buy one, 
>Apple will come out with better computers just months later and make you think
>that you own a piece of crap. They want you (the consumer) to buy a new
>Mac every 8 months. Don't sweat it, just get a lot of use out of it.


Good advice.


>IMHO, the superiority of the Mac OS compensates for the frustrating issue of
>not having the best thing on the Apple line. 

I agree.  A low-end mac is a lot more usable than a low-end PC, and for
a lot longer.  In all these PC vs Mac discussions, so one ever mentions
how long it will be before they have to repair or replace the machine.
My guess is that the Mac has a much longer useful life.



>>>Another question is 'Are any of the current line of Macs going to become
>>>"orphan" Macs?'
>>
>>    If you would tell me what an "orphan" Mac is, I might understand
>>what you are asking.
>
>I think he's referring to discontinued models. Apple generally stops
>providing support for discontinued models regardless of when they were
>purchased. This is an important issue because they drop their
>products so fast sometimes -- less than a year for the Powerbook 100 --
>they could stop providing support even when you are still figuring out how
>the thing works.

There's a *big* difference between discontinuing *sales* of a machine
and discontinuing *support*  As far as I know you can still get repairs
for Macs all way back to the Plus and beyond.  And the latest System
software runs on everything back to the Plus as well. 

>I would like to comment that Apple has two choices; they can continually bring
>us new and better computers based on rapidly evolving technologies, or they
>could stop using the latest technology and keep the same product line for years.
>I think I would prefer seeing new better computers every few months than to
>see a consistent product line using technology of 2 years ago.

While Apple used to concentrate entirely on developing new technologies,
now they have two parallel branches of development.  They develop a few
new state-of-the-art machines, plus they figure out ways to produce
cheaper machines based on old technology.  In a way that satisfies both
groups of people, and in a way it pisses them both off too :-)


>The things that I don't like are 1)Apple discontinuing support for their
>older products and 2)their pricing strategy. Somebody with an SE from 3 years
>ago ought to be able to get the same service and support as somebody with
>an LCII. And they should be able to get the same support for 6.0.5 as
>someone with 7.01 (1.1.1). Also, somebody who paid market price for the LCII
>in March 92 deserves some respect from Apple and not see then drop the price
>by 40% in 6 months. Apple should offer a better "upgrade" option for loyal
>customers.

It's silly to expect Apple to keep prices higher than they need to be so
that people who bought the machines at a higher price don't get upset.
Note that Sears sells Macs now and they offer a guarantee where
they'll refund the difference if the price goes down within 30 days of
when you buy the machine.  As far as a 40% drop in 6 months, I'd rather
have the machine for those 6 months.

--
Steve Kanefsky