HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: root@dogear.spk.wa.us (Bob Kirkpatrick)
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
Subject: Re: When the father is out of a job.
Date: 16 Apr 92 02:03:36 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Dog Ear'd Systems of Spokane, WA

In article <VIXIE.92Apr13175806@cognition.pa.dec.com> vixie@pa.dec.com (Paul A Vixie) writes:
>>> Yes, we'd like to be great human beings who always maintain control --but 
>>> the simple fact is that many graves are filled with those who took in
>>> silence. 
>
>There's not much silence on this newsgroup :-).  What I'm trying to promote
>is compassion, not silence.  OK, so we're angry.  But that's not our defining
>characteristic; if we felt nothing but _anger_, then we probably would not
>deserve to be parents _anyway_.  We hopefully ground our anger in our
>frustration at being unjustly prevented from being parents to our children.
>So, OK, let's be angry.  But not anger for anger's sake, and not anger toward
>eachother over what might be a misunderstanding and in a way that will cause
>more harm and more hurt.

<Bob starts laughing>
No, we aren't exactly the epitome of the mute peanut gallery, are we? :-)

I didn't mean to come off as flaming, really. I misunderstood you as saying
that we should be polyanic or something --keep turning cheeks and all that.
Apparently we don't differ all that much. I guess what I was saying is that
I understand completely when one of us comes unglued.

As to earning your stripes --I wouldn't presume to say otherwise Paul. You
misunderstood me if you thought that's what I was saying. I apologize for
lousy phrasing.

Lets's see if I can do it better:

I understand that we have our moments, and I don't begrudge them to anyone.
I hope that nobody begrudges my bad moments, and I promise to try not to
begrudge anyone else their bad days.

That was what my long winded post was supposed to mean. Maybe I shoudl go
for terse mode. :-)
>
>I think that Aaron and I cleared this up in subsequent articles, so there's
>no point in rehashing that detail.  If you want to continue to discuss the
>meta-issue of "caged rats eating eachother", I'm willing.
>--
>Paul Vixie, DEC Network Systems Lab	
>Palo Alto, California, USA         	"Ready, Fire, Aim"
><vixie@pa.dec.com> decwrl!vixie
><paul@vix.com>     vixie!paul          alt.pink.bunny.boom.boom.boom moderator


-- 
Bob Kirkpatrick                      "If you do anything to hurt them, I'll
Dog Ear'd Systems of Spokane, WA      hit you so hard your dog will bleed."
root@dogear.spk.wa.us                                           --van damme
Newsgroups: alt.child-support

> It came back saying that I was angry, that I had a deep felt resentment
> about something.

Aaron, I can relate to that.  Six months after my divorce was final,
thanks to some "stuff" that happened that I won't get into, I was tested
as "temporarily clinically depressed".  After a while, including taking
the Fisher Divorce Seminar (available in Colorado at least), I realized
that my depression was anger turned inward.

I learned that the roots of anger are hurt (past), frustration
(present), fear (future), and inadequacy (self).  I learned that you can
dump anger destructively, or you can hold it in and get depressed, or
you can do "anger exercises" -- they really work, but I won't do them
injustice by trying to summarize them here.

In the long run you can become less susceptible to the roots of anger,
but that's a different course.

Anyway, good luck dealing with your rather lousy situation in a
dignified and healthy manner.  If I can help, send me mail.
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
From: woody@wolves.uucp (Woody Muller)
Subject: Re: When the father is out of a job.
Organization: Wolves Den UNIX, Durham NC
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 01:52:56 GMT
X-Md4-Signature: 707a543604f8bceea7cd078bfaf75080

Shannon Smith writes:
>       Yes, I'm looking for
>a win-win in my case, and I hope to be able to turn to this group to
>help me find one.  But win-wins aren't found in strictly adversarial
>attitudes or relationships--there has to be some cooperation.  I
>haven't found evidence of a lot of cooperation in the stories of the
>people whom I've seen posting lately.  I hope that changes.

Well, for what it's worth, I was out of work (layed off) for a couple of 
months during the period of time of back-support calculations.  Once
the Paternity test index came in high, we settled and worked out a deal
where I gave her all the back money right away (I'd been saving for 
just such an occasion), except for those two months.

A happy out-of-job dad story?  Wait'll you hear about the rest of the 
settlement ;-) 

-- 
wm
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
From: yasu@ll.mit.edu (Alan Yasutovich)
Subject: sleep
Organization: MIT Lincoln Laboratory
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 92 13:04:59 GMT

>Newsgroups: alt.child-support
>From: vixie@pa.dec.com (Paul A Vixie)
>Subject: Re: When the father is out of a job.
>
>You're preaching to the choir.  I think my experiences as a father have earned
>me my stripes -- tire tracks across my back, in fact.  I have felt the kind of
>desolation you describe.  Many nights I don't fall asleep until 3 or 4AM since
>I can't get my son out of my mind and I can't get the pain to be out of focus.

	Funny.  I'm the exact opposite.  I usually wake up around then,
	only to be ready to fall back assleep around 6 when it's time to
	get up.

	I used to sleep through like a rock.  It wasn't until 2 years
	ago when my son "surfaced", that I experienced any problem
	like this.  Since then, it's almost habit.


-- 
	Alan Yasutovich
	"inquiring  (and nosey) minds WANT TO KNOW!!!"
	I can remember when "safe sex" meant having a padded headboard!!
	Tick Tock.....Tick Tock......Tick Tock .....Tick Tock......
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
From: vixie@pa.dec.com (Paul A Vixie)
Subject: Joint Custody (was Re: When the father is out of a job.)
Organization: DEC Network Software Lab
	<VIXIE.92Apr4130837@cognition.pa.dec.com>
	<1992Apr9.000217.1780@memstvx1.memst.edu>
Date: 8 Apr 92 22:54:18

>> Sorry - at one time I would have agreed that joint custody was the best
>> solution, but not any more.  I've seen too many of my daughter's friends
>> shuttled back and forth between parents - constantly having to form and
>> reform relationships with friends, constantly readjusting to different
>> household rules, not being able to plan the same activites as the other
>> kids - can't go to summer camp cause that's dad's time and can't go on
>> weekend trips with a school group cause that's mom's time - most of these
>> kids seem miserable most of the time.
>>
>> That doesn't mean that I don't think both parents should play an important
>> part in the child's life - just that the child needs a consistent home.

I've seen it fail in the ways you describe.  I've also seen it succeed.
There's no guarantee of success, in this or anything else.  But if it
succeeds it is *much* better for the child than if you don't try.  And
if it doesn't succeed, you can change what you're trying to do -- even
to the point of giving up in failure and doing the "consistent home" thing.

In my case my son is only a year old.  The kind of custody situation I'm
working toward is where he stays with me during his mother's nominal work
day.  I don't think that's going to confuse him or part him from his parents
nearly as much as spending five hours a day with a Nanny, which is what he
does now -- against my explicit wishes and in spite of my obvious and public
desire to take care of him myself.

I don't know what "joint custody" should mean later on -- your points could
be quite valid.  But I believe that a child gets a lot of benefit from
seeing and "spending quality time with" *both* parents every day, if
possible.  I'm not going to go into what makes it "impossible" in my
situation since I'm extremely bitter about it (yesterday was our latest
hearing) and I don't think I could be terribly constructive about it just
now.
--
Paul Vixie, DEC Network Systems Lab	
Palo Alto, California, USA         	"Ready, Fire, Aim"
<vixie@pa.dec.com> decwrl!vixie
<paul@vix.com>     vixie!paul          alt.pink.bunny.boom.boom.boom moderator
Newsgroups: alt.child-support,alt.dads-rights
From: paulo@ohmeda.com (Paul Ourada)
Newsgroups: alt.child-support,alt.dads-rights
Subject: Re: what's fair?
Date: 8 Apr 92 15:31:14 GMT
Article-I.D.: ohmeda.1992Apr8.153114.9259
Organization: Ohmeda Monitoring Systems

spp@zabriskie.berkeley.edu (Steve Pope) writes:

>>From: bobw@hpsad.sad.hp.com (Bob Waltenspiel)
>>Subject: What's FAIR Child Support?
>>
>>What is fair support for a Non-Custodial Parent to pay a Custodial Parent?

>What is "fair" depends on one's point of view.  As a non-parent and
>a taxpayer, to me a fair level of support is one that (1) eliminates
>any AFDC or other welfare-type handout; (2) allows for the child
>to be fed, clothed, provided with healthcare, and in school; and 
>(3) is satisfactory enough to both parties that they don't further 
>burden the system with legal process, etc.

>So long as the above is satisfied the cost to society of the 
>CP/NCP dispute is minimized, which is to me the most fair outcome.  
>Beyond that I couldn't care less how expenses are split between CP 
>and NCP.  In my view, laws governing support levels should be
>aimed at achieving the above criteria, as opposed to achiveing any 
>subjective notion of "fairness" from the perspective of either parent.

>All IMHO of course.

>-- Steve

Well, Steve, what about what is fair to the child?  If the combined incomes
of both parents is say, $100K/annum, but the NCP makes most of this, say
$80K, should the child not share in this wealth?  Of course, I haven't
addressed the issues of voluntary impoverishment, and a host of other
issues, for those readers who have been keeping up.

Paul Ourada
paulo@ohmeda.com
From: root@dogear.spk.wa.us (Bob Kirkpatrick)
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
Subject: Re: When the father is out of a job.
Summary: anger? indeed.
Keywords: personal themes
Date: 8 Apr 92 06:08:04 GMT
Followup-To: alt.child-support
Distribution: usa
Organization: Dog Ear'd Systems of Spokane, WA

In article <1992Apr7.011706.29416@cbnewsk.cb.att.com> noraa@cbnewsk.cb.att.com (aaron.l.hoffmeyer) writes:
>In article <VIXIE.92Apr4225720@cognition.pa.dec.com> vixie@pa.dec.com (Paul A Vixie) writes:
>>>> I'll apologize up front - "Sorry."  Doesn't that make it all better?
>>
>>You know things are pretty bad when the caged rats start to eat eachother.

I'm sorry Paul, I just don't buy it.

The whole concept here is one of indignity, injustice, exploitation,
frustration, and hundreds of other emotions.

What we're talking about here is a fundamental human loss. I've often found
my pain so acute, so over-powering that I gave thought to blowing my own
brains out. Time has passed, and for the moment, _the moment_, I have a grip.
Others in our midst have not been so lucky. Example Allen Wells who took his
life for the pain and suffering.

What we're talking here is fundamental human dignity. The right to stand and
be counted as simply human --due the same rights, consideration and respect
as any other. When that dignity is impaired, or referred to as worthless -as
the post which started this thread intimated (no win-win so lay down and give
till you die), then anger and reaction is certainly called for.

Yes, we'd like to be great human beings who always maintain control --but the
simple fact is that many graves are filled with those who took in silence. 

Alt.child-support is used as the area where our feelings are revealed about a
very personal situation. So that the posts here are going to reveal what our
personal feelings are. The world needs to see, to hear, to feel the
tremendous anger and frustration and injustice that is experienced by those
caught in the great machine.

The founding fathers of this nation of ours are revered for standing up and
going to arms over their convictions against oppression. While I don't think
we should be out there shooting judges, legislators and judas goats --and the
people who exploit their attitudes, I do believe that we need to be vocal and
real about our pain.

---
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
From: tvp@gibdo.engr.washington.edu ()
Subject: More legislation against deadbeat dads
Organization: clearer than blir
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 10:29:23 GMT

I was watching CNN on Tuesday evening and saw the last three-quarters
of a story about a US state that is planning to take the photographs
of it's ten worst deadbeat dads and plaster them in public places
(such as on the sides of buses).  As far as I could tell this is
purely punitive.  The total amount owed by these dads was a little
over $250,000. I'd hoped there'd be something on it on this group
today (as with the ABC piece a while ago), but there wasn't.  Does
anybody know what state this is? (I couldn't catch it.) Mind you, this
was not a feature. CNN was merely reporting what this state was doing
so I don't think letters to the network demanding equal time are
justified in this case; it's the legislators of that state that need
to be worked on.

I have mixed feelings about this odd proposal, because my own dad was
a deadbeat to the tune of about $20,000 (70's dollars at that) but I
can still see how this negative attitude is getting out of control to
the point that all fathers (regardless of marital status) will be
adversely affected.  I'm afraid Father's Day will be repealed or
something.  Things are getting scary.

-- Tad Perry   Internet:    tvp@gibdo.engr.washington.edu
               CompuServe:  70402,3020
               NIFTY-Serve: GBG01266
From: cth@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (CT Hart)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 21:31:07 GMT
Subject: Re: college money
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Newsgroups: alt.child-support

> >From: thrushea@memstvx1.memst.edu
> >Newsgroups: alt.child-support
> >Subject: Re: knee jerk
> >
> >Question:  I have an 18 year old who is about to start college.  The
> >schools, understandably, are not willing to give us much financial aid
> >because of her father's income - why should they use their money to
> >educate a child who has parents with income when there are other kids
> >who don't? But her father doesn't want to pay what the schools consider
> >his rightful contribution. He wants to "get the shackles off". So
> >does she give up the chance for a good education?  I've saved and
> >have some home equity and I'm perfectly willing to use it, but should
> >I have to be wiped out because he doesn't want to carry his share?
> >Of course, she plans to work while in school - that's part of the
>
 
 When I did it, all it took was surviving one year of school on my own.
 (It wasn't really on my own, my grandparents slipped me money under 
  the table.)  Then I was emancipated.  Once I was on my own, with the
 usual going-to-college-job, it wasn't much trouble getting grants and
 loans.
                                  - CT
From: yasu@ll.mit.edu (Alan Yasutovich)
Subject: what babies need
Organization: MIT Lincoln Laboratory
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 92 13:00:55 GMT

>From: Jennifer Brown <JLB155@psuvm.psu.edu>
>Message-ID: <92104.180520JLB155@psuvm.psu.edu>
>Newsgroups: alt.child-support
>Subject: What babies need.
>
>I came home today, turned on the tv, and started watching Geraldo.
>(Hey, that was what happened to be on tv!  =-)
>>The one woman has an 8 month old baby girl.  She couldn't reveal
>how much she got the father (some big sports star, didn't catch
>who) for child support, for some reason or another...
>Geraldo said, as an interrupt, that he had heard that she was
>getting $2600 per month, but the guy had only made two payments
>thus far.  What, might I ask, what does an 8 month old baby girl
>need with $2600 a month??  Must I assume that the child is using
>all of it, or could I assume that the mother is using a lot of
>that money on herself??   GAWD!
>-Jennifer

	The baby will need athletic (you name the sport) lessons
	to live life at the same standard as her father.  These
	can be very expensive.



-- 
	Alan Yasutovich
	"inquiring  (and nosey) minds WANT TO KNOW!!!"
	I can remember when "safe sex" meant having a padded headboard!!
	Tick Tock.....Tick Tock......Tick Tock .....Tick Tock......
Newsgroups: alt.child-support,misc.kids
Newsgroups: alt.child-support

> But please don't let your anger toward your ex-wife...

Whoa, what anger?  That's long gone, with only occasional temporary
relapses due to here-and-now events.  We get along pretty well for two
incompatible divorced people who co-parent a nine-year-old.

> If you weren't ready, emotionally or financially, it's time to get
> ready.  If you had other plans, change them to include the new small
> human.

Whoa, perhaps I didn't make clear that she is pregnant with someone
else's child -- not mine.  I merely mentioned her as an example of a
case where a woman went ahead with a pregnancy unwisely (in my opinion).
It turns out the father is pretty happy about it and plans to pay
support, but that's irrelevant.

> ...what about the kids?  Would you like them to feel guilty for having
> been born?

Of course not.  And your appeal to unwilling fathers is entirely
reasonable.  I just disagree about requirements *legally imposed* on an
unwilling father.
From: yasu@ll.mit.edu (Alan Yasutovich)
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
Subject: college money
Date: 9 Apr 92 14:55:54 GMT
Organization: MIT Lincoln Laboratory

>From: thrushea@memstvx1.memst.edu
>Newsgroups: alt.child-support
>Subject: Re: knee jerk
>
>Question:  I have an 18 year old who is about to start college.  The
>schools, understandably, are not willing to give us much financial aid
>because of her father's income - why should they use their money to
>educate a child who has parents with income when there are other kids
>who don't? But her father doesn't want to pay what the schools consider
>his rightful contribution. He wants to "get the shackles off". So
>does she give up the chance for a good education?  I've saved and
>have some home equity and I'm perfectly willing to use it, but should
>I have to be wiped out because he doesn't want to carry his share?
>Of course, she plans to work while in school - that's part of the


	This situation  (financial aid) is true without regard to
	divorce.  Divorce just splits resources.  My brother-in-law
	ran into this.  He's one smart cookie!  He was accepted at
	MIT, but couldn't afford it, and couldn't get any grants,
	etc., because he isn't a minority, etc.  (This in not being
	prejudice, just factual)  My father-in-law is/was a professional
	making in the 50k bracket.  He would have helped my wife and
	her brother if push came to shove.  they're a very close &
	loving family.  But they chose to so it themselves.

	Anyway, *my* father was just a basic working stiff.
	Navy, General Dynamic, Post Office.  "We made too much for
	grants and aid"!!!!!!!!


	The truth is, you almost have to be destitute to get some of
	these monies.  (Or at least uncomfortable according the the
	style to which I am accustomed)

-- 
	Alan Yasutovich
	"inquiring  (and nosey) minds WANT TO KNOW!!!"
	I can remember when "safe sex" meant having a padded headboard!!
	Tick Tock.....Tick Tock......Tick Tock .....Tick Tock......
From: cth@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (CT Hart)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 21:17:32 GMT
Subject: Re: what's fair?
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Newsgroups: alt.child-support

In alt.child-support, paulo@ohmeda.com (Paul Ourada) writes:
> 
> Well, Steve, what about what is fair to the child?  If the combined incomes
> of both parents is say, $100K/annum, but the NCP makes most of this, say
> $80K, should the child not share in this wealth?  Of course, I haven't
> addressed the issues of voluntary impoverishment, and a host of other
> issues, for those readers who have been keeping up.
>
 And if the NCP has remarried?  His second family should suffer in lieu
 of the first?  The way it is set up today, this is possible, even likely.
 
 And why should a man (excuse me - NCP) who lived up to his side of the 
 marital agreement, but found himself divorced anyway, have to suffer 
 for an extended period of time...  Oh, that's right, I forgot that
 child-support isn't a punishment...

 - CT (well, we were talking about what's "fair" weren't we) Hart
From: thrushea@memstvx1.memst.edu
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
Subject: Re: knee jerk
Date: 9 Apr 92 05:49:31 GMT
Organization: Memphis State University

In article <1992Apr3.205608.4243@ll.mit.edu>, yasu@ll.mit.edu (Alan Yasutovich) writes:
>>From: cates@cherokee.unx.sas.com (Claire Cates)
>>Newsgroups: alt.child-support
>>Subject: Re: knee-jerk reactions
>>|>
>>|>     
> 		So I think that the forum of this issue really only
> 	had one "angle" for the audience.  Certainly a court might
> 	see it differently.  But I think the thing that stuck in
> 	most people's craw, was that they are trying to live
> 	through child support, a nasty life situation, with the
> 	hope of their kids turning 18 to get the shackles off,
> 	and all we keep hearing about is how 19 and 20 year olds
> 	still want money.
> 
Question:  I have an 18 year old who is about to start college.  The
schools, understandably, are not willing to give us much financial aid
because of her father's income - why should they use their money to
educate a child who has parents with income when there are other kids
who don't? But her father doesn't want to pay what the schools consider
his rightful contribution. He wants to "get the shackles off". So
does she give up the chance for a good education?  I've saved and
have some home equity and I'm perfectly willing to use it, but should
I have to be wiped out because he doesn't want to carry his share?
Of course, she plans to work while in school - that's part of the
aid we ARE being offered. She's very bright, and an investment in
her education will definitely pay off all the way around.  Most of
you must have gone to college - and a lot of it was probably paid for
by your parents. How would you have felt about having to give it
up and resign yourself to either an inferior education or a lifetime
in minimum wage jobs while one of your parents lived in a house with
a pool and a hot tub and flew himself places in private planes?
> -- 
> 	Alan Yasutovich
> 	"inquiring  (and nosey) minds WANT TO KNOW!!!"
> 	I can remember when "safe sex" meant having a padded headboard!!
> 	Tick Tock.....Tick Tock......Tick Tock .....Tick Tock......
From: ajs@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Alan Silverstein)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 01:23:08 GMT
Subject: Re: Help on child support issues?
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Newsgroups: alt.child-support

I said:

> Whoa, perhaps I didn't make clear that she is pregnant with someone
> else's child -- not mine.

Oops, I also didn't make it clear that the incident I was thinking of
was not her current pregnancy -- but one many years ago in which the
biological father (not me) did *not* want the child but she had it
anyway.  In that case she gave it up for adoption.