HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: wagner@grace.math.uh.edu (David Wagner)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Decisions on homosexuality by the Presbyterian judicial
Date: 22 Nov 92 22:52:59 GMT
Organization: UH Dept of Math

"OFM" == Charles Hedrick writes:


OFM> [The question we have to look at is how to handle a period of
OFM> transition, where few are entirely happy with either of the
OFM> extreme positions, and no one sees any good intermediate
OFM> position.  Praying for the Holy Spirit to show us the way has a
OFM> lot to be said for it.

OFM> --clh]

Two points:

1.  	I could summarize my previous article, by saying that there
	is, in my opinion, no `good intermediate position.'  There is,
	for the christian church, only the proper use of the Law and 
	the comfort of the Gospel.

2.	How do you expect the Holy Spirit to show you the way, if
	you do not use the written word?  Do you expect the
	General Assembly to function as a papacy?  Do votes in
	the General Assembly, or in the local session, constitute
	divine revelation?

David Wagner
a confessional Lutheran

"But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness,
godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness.  Fight the good
fight of faith.  Take hold of the eternal life to which you were
called when you made your good confession in the presence of many
witnesses.  In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and of
Christ Jesus, who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good
confession, I charge you to keep this commandment without spot or
blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ."
--1 Tim 6:11-14
From: jd4p+@andrew.cmu.edu (John Ethan DeGraaf)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Religion & Schools(Was Re: Liberal/New Age Religion)
Date: 17 Nov 92 08:37:48 GMT

The problem is that all and any education is innately religious and from
some worldview. Therefore, the government should not be involved in
forcing ANY religion or belief system (incl. secular humanism). The
gov't. should not be in control of education, but parents and families
should. Parents should have the right to teach their children how they
like (remember: all education subscribes to a particular worldview, it
is impossible to not be biased). Since their is no such thing as an
unbiased and neutral education, lets get the state out of it's
educational monopoly. _Parents_ are instructed to "train up a child in
the way he should go." The privitazation of the educational system would
have the additional benefit of increasing qualitity while decreasing
cost. A specific religion should not be taught by the state, therefore
the state should not be in control of the education of its youth (like
Hitler wanted). Biblically, who does the God put in charge of education
of the young? I believe that it is the parents.
From: vxv4@po.cwru.edu (Virgilio Velasco)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Superman buys the farm
Date: 22 Nov 92 23:12:07 GMT
Reply-To: vxv4@po.cwru.edu (Virgilio Velasco)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)

In a previous article, our beloved moderator says,

>[The reason I consider Superman dangerous but not Aslan is that
>the idea of Jesus as Superman is a common misunderstanding of the
>Christian position.  I don't think many people think Jesus was
>a talking lion.  --clh]
>

To some extent, yes.  Many people are used to thinking of Jesus as a
cosmic vending machine, a provider and little more.   They also tend to
think of him as a superheroic savior who rescues us from trouble, while
they neglect His true mission:  to redeem the lost, to pay the penalty
we could never pay ourselves.

I think the Jews of His time made the same mistake.  As stated in the
book, "The Gospel According to Superman" (interesting reading, I'd say),
they thought the Messiah would come to fight for Truth, Justice and the
Israelite Way.  Such an image of Christ certainly leaves much to be
desired.

I have to problems with thinking of Superman (or Aslan, or Spock, or Doc
Savage, or E.T.) as a Christ figure.  However, it is important to keep
the limitations of such analogies in perspective.
 
-- 
    Virgilio "Dean" Velasco Jr., CWRU grad student & roboticist wannabee

   "Bullwinkle, that man's intimidating a referee!"    |    My boss is a 
   "Not very well.  He doesn't look like one at all."  |  Jewish carpenter.
From: crs@stein.u.washington.edu (Cliff Slaughterbeck)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Need Christian Jokes...
Date: 17 Nov 92 08:25:12 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

I have two:

Q:  What is the difference between Europe and America?
A:  In Europe, they have only two religions and many kinds of cheese, 
    while in America there are many religions and only two kinds of cheese.
    (My apologies to people from Wisconsin, where they actually do have 
     many kinds of cheese and not just "orange" and "white").

The second joke works pretty well in churches that still have the old bell
in the steeple:

I used to attend church in an old fashioned church, with a steeple and a
bell that was pulled by a rope, and all the old fashioned trappings of the
19th century.  Every Sunday morning, the head usher would pull on the rope
and get the bell to start ringing to signal that worship would begin in
a few minutes.  Well one warm Sunday in June, he took his normal heave at
the rope, and was shocked and surprised when the rope came tumbling down
from the steeple and was draped all over him, with one frayed end.  The
rope had broken after many long years of service.  He wasn't quite sure
what to do, and was about to forget the whole thing, when one newcomer to
the church said that he thought he could get the bell to ring.  Giving his
assent, the head usher watched as the man climbed up into the steeple, being
sure to keep his suit and tie from getting dust on them.  When he finally
got to the platform near the bell, he ran headlong into the bell, causing it
to reverberate like never before.  The people gathered below marveled at the
sound, for just a minute, since the man had been knocked unconscious from
the blow and had fallen to his death below.  Standing in silence, as the
bell tones had died away, one woman asked who the fellow was.  Her friend,
looked at him and said "I don't know, but his face sure rings a bell."
<rimshot>.  [Don't stop yet, it gets worse....]

When the next week came, they still hadn't replaced the rope.  Yet another
gentleman climbed up into the steeple and took his turn at ringing the
bell.  Once again, the most pleasant noise emanated from the bell because
of the unusual way it had been rung.  And once again, the most unfortunate
set of circumstances occurred as the second man fell to his death.  As the
crowd peered at him from a circle, the same old lady spoke up  "Who is this
fellow?"  and once again, her friend replied "I don't know, but he is a
dead ringer for that fellow who was here last week." <another rimshot>
[I told you it got worse...]

****************************************************************************
Cliff Slaughterbeck           * 
Dept. of Physics, FM-15       *   Hey Matt!  The diffusion pump is full of
University of Washington      *   water again!
Seattle, WA 98195             *
****************************************************************************
From: g91a2724@giraffe.ru.ac.za (MR GJ ANDREWS)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Door-to-Door evang..
Date: 19 Nov 92 07:15:30 GMT
Organization: Rhodes University, Grahamstown, South Africa

In article <Nov.13.02.18.47.1992.19332@geneva.rutgers.edu> whheydt@pbhya.pacbell.com (Wilson Heydt) writes:

>> Try: "I'm not here to convert you just to be your friend if you'd like 
>> someone to talk to." 

>Which, since the purpose *is* conversion, is a lie....  (What was that
>about ends and means...?)


Not if all you want to be is a friend - like Christ. In inner-city mission 
you soon realise that people don't actaully want to know all your fancy 
Bible quotes and arguments for existence of God and why they have to have 
Christ in their lives. They just want to talk. Christ would have listened.
From: spedding_bj@alice.lrc.edu
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Angelic Being
Date: 23 Nov 92 01:59:23 GMT
Reply-To: spedding_bj@mike.lrc.edu
Organization: Lenoir-Rhyne College, Hickory, NC


	I'm definately no scholar on the bible and I don't have anyone to
ask around here- so here's a question tha I would like some help on.

	Could anyone tell me the characteristics of angelic being?

They are spiritual solely and not material?  Do they have rational capabilities?
How do they become angels?  
	 Maybe a wierd question but I'm just interested.

	thanks.
					Bill
From: ceb@dbrus.unify.com (Caroline E. Bryan)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Bored in Eternity...
Date: 17 Nov 92 08:31:58 GMT
Organization: /usr/lib/news/organization

In article <Nov.13.02.17.43.1992.19268@geneva.rutgers.edu> dwjurkat@mailbox.syr.edu (Jurkat) writes:
>Just exactly what do you do when you're in heaven?  Eternity is rather long. 

Second statement first.  Eternity is not long.  Eternity is outside time
altogether, which means temporal adjectives have no meaning when applied to
it.  It would be like trying to apply color adjectives to music -- Brahms's
1st Symphony isn't green, orange, or any other color; likewise eternity isn't
10K years or 10 seconds long, nor does it have any other temporal quality.

Now the question.  Setting aside the problem of how one describes any kind of
activity in a non-temporal environment, I suspect that the soul in heaven is
doing whatever God has designed the soul to do.  It would be like having the
perfect job -- you come in early, work late, skip lunch, because what you're
doing is so interesting and enthralling you literally lose track of time.  A
soul that is bored could be so only because it has rejected the activity God
has designed it for -- but that soul wouldn't be in heaven, either, would it?


Carrie		ceb@rechenau.unify.com	x6244		---------------------+
|   "Technical work needs reviewing for the same reason that pencils need    |
|   erasers."			- Daniel P. Freedman & Gerald M. Weinberg    |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: cpage@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Carter C Page)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Ends justify the means?
Date: 22 Nov 92 22:54:48 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <Nov.19.01.53.08.1992.800@geneva.rutgers.edu> DSIMON@atlas.nafb.trw.com (D_SIMON) writes:

>What if the only way to get into heaven was to reject Christ?
>If enemies of Christ got into heaven while Xians went to hell,
>would you still serve Christ?

I must object to this whole question.  The first thing which Mr. Simon fails
to consider is, what on earth do these terms mean?
	1) Who is Christ?
          A: Biblically, Christ is God in the flesh (Read 1st chapter o' John).

	2) What is heaven?
	  A: Most references to heaven in the Bible describe it as eternal life
	     with God, in praise and worship.

From your question, it seems that you refer to heaven as a certain nifty place 
somewhere in the celestial plane.  I would argue that the only thing that makes
heaven "nifty" is God.  I don't really care what the cosmic (or supercosmic, 
more likely) coordinates of that place might be.

	3) What does it mean to reject Christ?
	   First, one needs to answer:
	 What does it mean to accept Christ?
	  A: "Accept Christ" is an incomplete phrase which has been accepted as
	     a shorter way of saying "accept Christ as Lord."  Unfortunately,
	     the latter part of that phrase is often forgotten.  Besides, 
	     it's quite biblical that the only way we can accept Christ or 
	     what he said would be to put him as Lord of our lives.
	 Therefore, rejecting Christ would be denying him as Lord in our
	 lives.
 
Therefore, let's reassess everything.  The question is, what if the only way to
get into heaven was to reject Christ?  In other words, what if the only way to
worship God eternally was to deny that he is our Lord?
What is worship?  I would argue that it is, in fact, giving someone or 
something lordship in our life.  For instance, if one worships money, money 
becomes that person's Lord.  He lives for money and money guides his decisions
and his whole life.

Therefore the original question is:

	What if the only way to accept God as Lord was to deny God as Lord?

Put in this perspective the question is contradictory and, to tell the truth,
rather silly.  Personal acceptance of Christ is the acceptance of the gift of 
heaven.  No ifs, ands, or buts.


				Love in Christ,
				Carter Page
From: hedrick@geneva.rutgers.edu
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: thought for the day (11-16)
Date: 17 Nov 92 08:17:01 GMT

Monday, November 16:

     ...be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and put on the new
nature, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness
and holiness.  <Ephesians 4: 23, 24>


[This is Ralph Reid's choice of passage, but from the RSV.  --clh]
From: wiggins@lightning.cs.odu.edu (Samuel E Wiggins)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Jesus is a Prophet, not Son of God
Date: 22 Nov 92 22:55:26 GMT
Organization: Old Dominion University, Norfolk, VA, USA


   In article <WIGGINS.92Nov17122722@hurricane.cs.odu.edu> wiggins@hurricane.cs.odu.edu (Samuel E Wiggins) writes:

   >I don't believe you got up this morning.  Prove that you did.  Or, maybe 
   >you only believe you got up this morning, and this is all a silly dream.
   I'm not arguing that I got up this morning. Presumably you are arguing
   that Jesus was crucified and resurrected. However, I could provide
   the sorts of proof that are generally considered sufficient in science
   that I woke up this morning--pictures of me at my workstation, time
   stamped EEGs, time stamped polygraphs, that sort of thing to prove
   it in the usual scientific fashion. I doubt you can do the same for
   any of the claims that Mr. Hudson is making.
-------
Well, you still can't prove to me that you ever woke up, even using these
scientific instruments.  I could always interpret the facts differently,
or claim your facts were forged or came from incomplete or invalid testing.
Moreover, your scientific testing methods cannot be applied in this instance,
heavily for hard proof were : these scientific instruments you rely on so
in question.  They only had what was available, just writing and word of
mouth; things that don't really stand up to scientific testing well
anyway.
How come people who never became Christians agreed that weird things were
going on and miracles happened?  Witness the Quran.  People in Palestine
at that time other than the followers of Christ.
Another question:
Why believe 90% of a newspaper which only tells of events without hard
scientific scrutiny?  (Is it because there are witnesses one can refer
if need be?  Both pro and con for the subject known as fact.)
-------
   >So.  Don't skirt the issue.  Address what I Peter says, regardless of the
   >fact that Peter did write it. :)
   You're begging the question. It only follows that Peter believed what
   1 Peter says if it is shown that Peter wrote 1 Peter. Since this
   has not been shown, I do not need to show that 1 Peter does not
   indicate a belief in resurrection to show that it does not logically
   follow from 1 Peter that Peter believed in resurrection.
-------
Say again?  Why don't you take a "suppose Peter wrote 1 Peter approach."
Then take a "suppose he didn't."  Try to argue from each possibility.
Would this affect your conclusions?
Even aside from Peter, 1 Peter makes claim to the resurrection; here
another person is claiming Christ rose from the dead.  This must still
be proven false, independent of who the writer was.  To blow him off
simply because he's not famous and doesn't have clout doesn't disprove
what he's saying.  (It really makes no difference to me whether Peter
wrote 1 Peter or not, though I personally believe he did; what does matter is
that some Christian wrote 1 Peter who believed in the resurrection.)
From: christian@geneva.rutgers.edu
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: near closure on jokes and boredom in heaven
Date: 19 Nov 92 07:42:24 GMT

I believe the discussions on boredom in heaven have gone on long
enough to be ... errr ... boring.  And I also suspect the original
poster has gotten more jokes than he had in mind.  So the next time we
have enough postings that I have to be selective, I'm probably going
to kill the boredom discussion.  Actually I think it would be fine to
continue sending in jokes now and again, but it's probably not
necessary to continue at quite the current level.
From: andrewc@garnet.berkeley.edu (Andrew Chen)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Cell Group Churches
Date: 17 Nov 92 08:00:03 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

In article <Nov.15.21.51.26.1992.23747@geneva.rutgers.edu> jmrg9881@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Jon Reid) writes:

>We had converts, and I saw more baptisms in one year than I've seen at all
>the churches I've been to previously... but then, I'd never been to a
>church with 1000 people.  Most of our growth was because of Christians
>joining our church, not because of conversions.

[stuff deleted]

>groups of Small Group Leaders and did the same thing.  Now the Small Group
>Leaders have gathered people in 41 small groups and are just starting to
>take roughly 400 people through the material.  The small groups are
>expected to multiply once a year; we believe that God wants us to have 2000
>small groups by the year 2000.
>
Hi Jon, 

I've been following your posts and the respective threaded replies on this
newsgroup.  I think it's great that you are involved with a church that you 
feel like is really making an impact, especially in terms of the vision you havefor the increasing numbers of Christians.  

I am impressed by your zeal to see "2000 small groups", yet you've "never been
to a church with 1000 people".  Just out of curiosity, have you ever checked
out the Chicago Church of Christ?  I believe your foundations for multiplying
are similar to that of the Chicago Church of Christ.  The membership there I 
believe is two thousand plus and is based on "small groups".   

Andrew Chen
----------------
andrewc@garnet.berkeley.edu
Workstation Support Services				UC Berkeley  
Information Systems and Technology
219 Evans Hall
From: mmrwlm@sn535.uca (Wanda L McCrae)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Bored in Eternity...
Date: 15 Nov 92 23:40:44 GMT
Reply-To: mmrwlm@sn535.uca
Organization: General Electric

In article 19268@geneva.rutgers.edu, dwjurkat@mailbox.syr.edu (Jurkat) writes:
~Just exactly what do you do when you're in heaven?  Eternity is rather long. 

My college roommate asked me the same question, and, I must admit, it
has baffled me for years!

Hopefully this will be helpful:
  "And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the
  image of the heavenly.
  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the
  kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."
	I Corinthians 15:49-50

We experience boredom and follow time only in these earthly bodies.
But when we go to heaven, we will have heavenly bodies that will
not be concerned with time, and therefore will not experience
boredom.

I don't know yet what we will do in heaven besides worship
God.  But I don't think we will be limited to heaven for eternity.
Revelation 21:24-26 says of New Jeruselem,

  "And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it:
  and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
  And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be
  no night there.
  And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it."

This suggests that we will have work to do that will take us in and out of the Holy
City, but it does not say exactly what we will do.

My roommate said, "I cannot conceive of worshiping someone for
an eternity.  That is too long!"  In response I said,

"Wouldn't you rather worship God for an eternity than suffer with
Satan for an eternity?"

She chose heaven.

---
______________________________________________________________________
Wanda L. McCrae            | "Free your mind and the rest will follow.
mmrwlm@sn370.utica.ge.com  |  Be color-blind.  Don't be so shallow!"
                                 - En Vogue
From: mpaul@unlinfo.unl.edu (marxhausen paul)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Reasons for "Unanswered" prayers...
Date: 23 Nov 92 01:58:21 GMT
Organization: University of Nebraska--Lincoln

Mr. Gross' list of reasons our prayers go unanswered is thought-provoking;
I need to chew on some of these a while, BUT...

I think it really begs the the question to say a prayer is "Unanswered."
How do you define the "success" of your prayers?  This worries me because
it puts all the effort, credit or blame on YOU, the pray-er, as to whether
God responds appropriately.  I don't believe this is defensible: God is
_sovereign_, and there are aspects of what He does that we will _never_
understand.  Any following of the recurrent "Why does God allow evil?"
threads here illustrates that amply.

So we must be sure we aren't guilty of the things Mr. Gross enumerates,
but realize as well that even if we offer our petitions in all innocence
and holiness, there may be times when God appears to be silent.  A good
book to read in this regard is Phillip Yancey's  _Disappointment With
God_, which faces this situation head on.  

--
paul marxhausen .... ....... ............. ............ ............ .......... 
 .. . .  . . . university of nebraska - lincoln .  . . .. . .  .. . . . . . . .
 .     .    .  .   .     .   .  .    .   .  .   .    .   .  grace .   .    .  . 
   .         .       .      .        .        .      .        .   happens .
From: paul@mr.med.ge.com (Chuck Paul 4-6544 MRCE)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Better than Daily Bread
Date: 17 Nov 92 08:32:12 GMT

There are other devotional guides better than Daily
Bread.

I can provide address info for them if you wish.
Just ask.

Daily Bread is good, but other ones do more to get
the reader into the scriptures--by passage, not just
by a single verse.

Perhaps we can add the addresses and descriptions to
the FAQ file for others to see too.  I'll CC: to our
moderator.

--Chuck Paul
  paul@mr.med.ge.com
From: isc10144@nusunix1.nus.sg (CHAN NICODEMUS)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: bible games needed
Date: 20 Nov 92 05:12:36 GMT
Organization: National University of Singapore

If you have some games, can you E-Mail them to me too?




Nico.
Department of Information Systems and Computer Science,
National University of Singapore.