From: chrism@cirrus.com (Chris Metcalfe)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.culture.arabic
Subject: Mazen On Jews and Nazis (was re: Hamas)
Date: 11 Dec 92 20:54:40 GMT
Organization: Cirrus Logic Inc.

In article <1992Dec11.071431.7853@cbfsb.cb.att.com> mmdh@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (Mazen Mokhtar) writes:

>>**   d) The Islamic movement is one link in the long chain of fighters
>>** against Zionism.  We are looking forward to implement Allah's and the
>>** Prophet's promise to the effect that "the time will come when the
>>** Muslims will fight the Jews and kill them.... Even if Jews should hide
>>** behind trees and rocks, these will cry out: `Oh Muslims, there is a
>>** Jew behind me, come and kill him..." (Article 7).
>
>>This Hadith (Muslim reported it) comes directly from your Prophet and was not 
>>inspired by modern Zionism.  When your Prophet said this, the Jews were 
>>living in exile, and still he prophecied a war of extermination against
>>us, because we would not recognize him.
>
>  Not a war of extermination. When the allies say that they are going to fightt
>the Germans it does not mean a war against all Germans. When the Hadith says
>that there are wars against Jews it does not mean against all Jews. The
>extent and limitations of war in Islam are well established. In a war, ennemy
>soldiers are to be fought until they desist or until they are defeated.
>
>Mazen Mokhtar

The full Hadith begins, "The final hour will not have come until the Muslims
fight the Jews and kill them."  This is an eschatalogical drama with a sense
of utter finality.  It is included in the Hadith describing "fitan" the end
of days.  Yes, sadly, a war of extermination is what is being discussed here.
If you can provide a classical or modern commentary that says otherwise,
you will have lifted my heart.

Mazen, you have equated the Jews with the Nazis: the allies fought the Nazis
with the same rules of engagement with which you fight the Jews. (And your
rules of engagement include routing out even the hiding Jews and killing them,
something very different then the allies not killing all Germans).

Did you mean to do this?  Let's look at your answer to Eric Pearlman:

>>>>  b) The introduction also contains a call for *jihad* (holy war) to
>>>>"liberate Palestine"
>>>  Which is something long overdue. After all, Israel was established by 
>>>people who only understand the language of violence. 
>>In a word, pure, unadulterated hogwash.  Israel has had to fight for its
>>life since before it was established.

>  So, does Hitler have the right to fight for his life? Does Germany have
>the right to fight to remain Nazi? Even before Nazi Germany became
>established? How about South Africa?

This is anti-Semitic propaganda in its purest form.  I am not surprised.
Let's look beyond the Hamas Covenant to the PLO Covenant, Article 22:

	Zionism is a political movement organically related to world
	imperialism and hostile to all movements of liberation and
	progress in the world.  It is a racist and fanatical movement
	in its formation; aggressive, expansionist and colonialist in
	its aims, and facist and Nazi in its methods.  Israel is the
	tool of the Zionist movement and a human and geographical base
	for world impewrialism.

					-- PLO National Covenant
					   Cairo, July 17, 1968
					   
					   English translation provided in:
					   "International Documents on 
					   Palestine, 1968" Zuhair Diab, ed.
					   Beirut.  The Institute for 
					   Palestine Studies, 1971.

Any questions?

I have some:

Mazen, what is your opinion of the expulsion of the Jews from the Hejaz?  
What about the Hadith that no compensation is required if a Moslem, being 
enraged, slaps a Jew?  How can you say that Jews will be allowed to live 
in peace as dhimis, when they are singled out like this in the Hadith?