HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: john@sekrit.WPI.EDU (John Stoffel)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: Wizard of Earthsea
Date: 28 Jan 93 22:07:35 GMT
	<JOHN.93Jan27171234@sekrit.WPI.EDU> <C1KwDA.x0@athena.cs.uga.edu>
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
NNTP-Posting-Host: sekrit.wpi.edu
In-reply-to: fuller@athena.cs.uga.edu's message of Thu, 28 Jan 1993 19:19:57 GMT

>>>>> On Thu, 28 Jan 1993 19:19:57 GMT, fuller@athena.cs.uga.edu (James P. H. Fuller) said:

James> john@sekrit.WPI.EDU (John Stoffel) writes:

>So, how do people like the "Wizard of Earthsea" trilogy?

James>      Wonderful!.  I wish she had left it as a trilogy.

I'm waffling myself on this.  I thought the trilogy was a really
wonderful story.  Then "Tehnaru" (sp?) came along and I had to read
it.  While it added some really nice information, and some wonderful
background, it left me feeling a little cheated.  Not much mind you,
not because the story was badly written, but mostly because it didn't
follow the spirit of the first ones and concentrate on Sparrowhawk.
Oh well, it was worth the price.  

			John


--
Youth of today!  Join me in a mass rally for traditional mental attitudes!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
john@wpi.wpi.edu | Work Station Specialist | Worcester Polytechnic Institute
John Stoffel     | 508-831-5512 (work)     | Worcester, MA  01609
From: x92joslin@gw.wmich.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: PERN
Date: 26 Jan 93 17:31:06 EST
Organization: Western Michigan University

Has anyone read the latest book about PERN. I was thinking of buying it but was
wondering if it would be worth it.

ray
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
From: mlperkin@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (mildred l perkins)
Subject: Re: Designing a Course (was: Re: What _ought_ to be in a proper course on sf?)
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 14:36:14 GMT

In <1993Jan20.221624.15742@news.cs.brandeis.edu> tabron1@binah.cc.brandeis.edu writes:
>

>Well, I'm an educator with every intention of someday teaching a class in
>science fiction, so I for one would be very interested in seeing what an
>obviously knowledgeable and devoted group of fans like this group would
>come up with for a syllabus.

>I will say that it's gotta have Heinlein in it somewhere.

>Judith Tabron
>Dept. of English and American Literature
>Brandeis University
>tabron@binah.cc.brandeis.edu

>>-- 
>>73 de David Weingart  KB2CWF    In the event I am captured or killed, the
>>phydeaux@cumc.cornell.edu       Cornell University Medical College and the
>>phydeaux@guru.med.cornell.edu   Department of Academic Computing will disavow
>>phydeaux@src4src.linet.org      any knowledge of my opinions.

Yeah, I would consider Heinlein important if you're teaching sexism in
sf.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
From: chris@keris.demon.co.uk (Chris Croughton)
Subject: Re: length of books (again) 
Distribution: world
Organization: Keristor Systems
X-Mailer: Simple NEWS 1.90 (ka9q DIS 1.19)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 06:17:05 +0000

In article <1j4m76INNdb8@bigboote.WPI.EDU> phillies@bigwpi.WPI.EDU writes:

>What has happened to lengths of published novels in the
>last decade?  I have had several people who claim to be senior editors
>and publishers blandly assert that lengths have not changed since ERB's
>time, so that 80 +/- kilowords is a novel and 250-300 kilowords is that
>unholy of unholies, a trilogy.  There are counterexamples.
>
>Blaming the change on the wordprocessor makes little sense if there has
>been no change.  But what change has occurred?  Any?

One thing that makes them physically larger is the size of the print.
Compare early editions of (say) Foundation with the recent ones - the
book is now a lot fatter.  And there's no textual change...

OTOH, you are correct that people now think in terms of a large
hardcover as a 'standard' novel, with several in a series (or trilogy).
This used to be only 'special' works slike Tolkien.

Incidentally, a rough word count is to go by 300 words per page - I've
checked a number of books and that seems to be around the norm.  So with
350 pages (fairly standard) it's around 100 Kwords, which is not too
different from 80 Kwords.  But then, this is usually only one volume in
a multi-volume novel (disguised as a trilogy or series).  For instance,
the Belgariad - 5 books of that size, but all one story.

I think the answer is 'because they can get away with it'.  Publishers
like to have a series, because it (usually) means ongoing sales (people
see "2nd in the series", and buy the first as well).

***********************************************************************
*  chris@keris.demon.co.uk      *                                     *
*  chriscr@cix.compulink.co.uk  *  FIAWOL (Filking Is A Way Of Life)  *
*  100014.3217@compuserve.com   *                                     *
***********************************************************************
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: What _ought_ to be in a proper course on sf?
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 20:14:22 GMT

mlperkin@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (mildred l perkins):
>>{BTW, I dropped the course upon finding the lack of the above
>>authors. For that matter, there's no Trek or Doctor Who either.}
>
>Wow, that is odd.  Who WAS on the syllabus?

No, Who *wasn't* on the syllabus.  Neither was Trek.

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
From: talbert@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu (Robert Talbert)
Subject: David Brin
Organization: Vanderbilt University Mathematics Department
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 00:42:27 GMT

Hi, out there...

I'm a pretty big fan of David Brin, and I was wondering if the SF cultural elite 
knew anything of his whereabouts. At the very end of _Earth_ (the book, not
the planet), there's a thing for COMING IN FALL 1992 -- S T R A T O S  by David
Brin. And I remember that the "Fall" part used to be "Spring" 1992... 
   Any of you guys have any idea if/when this book is coming out? Also, is Brin
making any plans to write more novels in the "Uplift" universe? 

-- Robert

--
Robert N. Talbert    		  | "I saw what cannot be seen
Mathematics Department  	  |  She spoke to me
Vanderbilt University		  |  'Take what you've learned, set it free
talbert@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu |   See what you'll see.' " --- King's X
From: silk@mcl.ucsb.edu (ken mencher)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: Fan Societies/groups
Date: 22 Jan 93 18:19:14 GMT

Well, As Minister of Embezzlement for UCSB's Shadow Society, I must say
we've had little problem establishing ourselves as a "serious" club on
campus...

Now into our second year, we've managed to build a strong base of members,
and meet weekly for discussions of anything we want to...

right now, we're trying to start a co-educational greek organization
called, "Psi Phi"...(this is before _Fallen Angels_) and try to turn it
into a year-round con....

silk
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
From: curt@quest.UUCP (Curtis Gibson)
Subject: SF Syllabus (Was: Designing a Course)
Organization: Quest Research, Inc.
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 20:05:42 GMT

I have read the wonderful lists of suggested reading for a SF course
and have an observation.  While these lists include most of the books
you can find on the shelves at Uncle Hugo's, you don't tell us why they
should be included in the course.  I mean what's your reason for reading
the story/book in the first place!  I can read the lists and figure
out some are on the list because it is an example of X or of Y in SF.
But I am just guessing at your reasons for including it in the syllabus.
I would like to see your lists with a little comment such as:

story/book: an example of X, showing Y about Z, by A.
          : an example of X, showing contrast between Y and Z, by A.

Otherwise this is just a list of your favorite stories/books/authors.
I don't mean to plunge all fandom into eternal warfare but you missed
something important here.  

Curtis S Gibson   curt%quest@cs.umn.edu
From: sl1yn@millville.declab.usu.edu (869483 Denys Larry)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: Designing a Course (was: Re: What _ought_ to
Date: 26 Jan 93 21:25:01 GMT
Reply-To: sl1yn@millville.declab.usu.edu (869483 Denys Larry)

In article <C1GtwF.wp@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, mlperkin@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (mildred l perkins) writes:
up with for a syllabus.
|>
|>Yeah, I would consider Heinlein important if you're teaching sexism in
|>sf.
|>


  Is it not strange how all these politicly correct types wail about how
a mere white male cannot express the perspective of the particular group
they belong to and feel is being persecuted so much, and yet they become
enraged when a white male writes according to his own perspective.
Can't express the perspectives of others, can't express the perspectives
of ourselves.  We may as well just shoot ourselves before mlperkin rounds
up the castration patrol and hunts us down.




Larry Denys
sl1yn@paradise.declab.usu.edu
From: phydeaux@guru.med.cornell.edu (Dave Weingart)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: Designing a Course
Date: 28 Jan 1993 15:38:06 GMT
Organization: CUMC
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: guru.med.cornell.edu

In article <C1GtJ0.72@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, mlperkin@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (mildred l perkins) writes:
|> Sad, isn't it, how none of these guys bother to credit any work done by
|> women?

I don't think that's necessarily true.  People have mentioned Tiptree
although they've skipped C.L. Moore (and thankfully McCaffrey and Norton).
-- 
73 de David Weingart  KB2CWF    In the event I am captured or killed, the
phydeaux@cumc.cornell.edu       Cornell University Medical College and the
phydeaux@guru.med.cornell.edu   Department of Academic Computing will disavow
phydeaux@src4src.linet.org      any knowledge of my opinions.
From: chris@keris.demon.co.uk (Chris Croughton)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: What _ought_ to be in a proper course on sf?
Date: 24 Jan 93 15:55:34 GMT
Organization: Keristor Systems
X-Mailer: Simple NEWS 1.90 (ka9q DIS 1.19)

In article <1993Jan20.221624.15742@news.cs.brandeis.edu>
            tabron1@binah.cc.brandeis.edu writes:

>Well, I'm an educator with every intention of someday teaching a class in
>science fiction, so I for one would be very interested in seeing what an
>obviously knowledgeable and devoted group of fans like this group would
>come up with for a syllabus.

Can I come to your course when you teach it <g>?

>I will say that it's gotta have Heinlein in it somewhere.

And McCaffrey, of course <g>.  Well, if you include 'romantic science
fantasy' in the genre...

Back to the main subject, how about George Effinger?  I was most
intrigued with his books that in spite of the large amount of technology
(which seems to get it labelled as 'cyberpunk') I kept thinking that
"this isn't SF, it's just a good thriller".

I would agree in keeping away from most of the early Asimov, Clarke,
etc., as they would just reinforce the general opinion that SF ig
'gadget-mad'.  However, certainly some short stories from them would be
a good idea (I might suggest some of Asimov's 'shaggy dog stories', to
show that SF isn't *all* serious - for instance, "Shah Guido G" or "A
Niche in Time").

***********************************************************************
*  chris@keris.demon.co.uk      *                                     *
*  chriscr@cix.compulink.co.uk  *  FIAWOL (Filking Is A Way Of Life)  *
*  100014.3217@compuserve.com   *                                     *
***********************************************************************
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
From: chris@keris.demon.co.uk (Chris Croughton)
Subject: Re: A question about the non-mundane world. 
Distribution: world
Organization: Keristor Systems
X-Mailer: Simple NEWS 1.90 (ka9q DIS 1.19)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 21:29:21 +0000

In article <879@smith.CHI.IL.US> dick@smith.UUCP writes:

>The term is defined in Dick Eney's _Fancyclopedia II_, which was
>published in 1959.  It's a short definition, as if anyone but a neo
>would already be familiar with the word, and there is no credit given,
>as Eney usually does with recent coinages.  I'd guess it goes back to
>first fandom, or before.  I don't have a copy of Fancy I (1950) to see
>if it was singled out there.

As someone who is (relatively) new to fandom, what *is* 'first fandom'?
Or 'who', or 'when'?

>Fandom is the non-mundane.  Only a few would confuse fandom with the
>real world... much as we pretend.

Well, people like the SCA also use 'mundane' in the same sense, but for
them the inverse isn't 'fandom' (or the related activity 'fannish').  I
don't know of any single word that would mean *to everyone*
non-mundane...

***********************************************************************
*  chris@keris.demon.co.uk      *                                     *
*  chriscr@cix.compulink.co.uk  *  FIAWOL (Filking Is A Way Of Life)  *
*  100014.3217@compuserve.com   *                                     *
***********************************************************************
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
From: chris@keris.demon.co.uk (Chris Croughton)
Subject: Re: Keith Laumer Died in Florida, January 22, 1993 
Distribution: world
Organization: Keristor Systems
X-Mailer: Simple NEWS 1.90 (ka9q DIS 1.19)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 21:35:28 +0000

In article <12586@jjmhome.UUCP> lmann@jjmhome.UUCP writes:

>Writer Keith Laumer died overnight at his home in Florida.  He
>was either 67 or 68, and had been in failing health for
>a number of years.

He was that old?  I remember reading his stories when I was a teenager,
but I'd have thought him to be around 50 or so by now...  I really
enjoyed his books (well, I still do)...

***********************************************************************
*  chris@keris.demon.co.uk      *                                     *
*  chriscr@cix.compulink.co.uk  *  FIAWOL (Filking Is A Way Of Life)  *
*  100014.3217@compuserve.com   *                                     *
***********************************************************************
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
From: wogg0743@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (William Shakespeare)
Subject: A Face in the Frost
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 07:24:49 GMT

Has anyone read Bellair's _The Face in the Frost_?  It's sort of weird, but
also interesting.  Has he written anything else?


-- 
William ("Shakespeare") Gulstad          /  So where are the C.S. babes?
wogg0743@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu                /  Joni Mitchell for President!
I vote, so I can complain!               /  Did you vote?  Then don't complain!
Republican is the opposite of democracy! /  Tune in, drop out, log on.
From: chris@keris.demon.co.uk (Chris Croughton)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: A question about the non-mundane world.
Date: 24 Jan 93 15:30:16 GMT
Organization: Keristor Systems
X-Mailer: Simple NEWS 1.90 (ka9q DIS 1.19)

In article <105523@netnews.upenn.edu> yee@mipg.upenn.edu writes:

>Well, I know that for fans of sf/f, the rest of the world is the "mundane"
>world.  What is the non-mundane world?  The "real" world, perhaps?

I can't think of a simple adjective that really fits.

>Also, who coined the word "mundane" and when?  Was it Piers Anthony in the
>Xanth series (shudder)?

According to the Concise Oxfor Dictionary:

'mundane a.  Of this world, worldly; of the universe, cosmic; dull,
routine'

It's in the two senses 'dull, routine' and 'of *this* world' that it is
used in fandom.  And no, Piers Anthony more likely 'borrowed' it from
fandom, as it's been used from long before the Xanth books came out.

The SCA attempted to dissuade people from using it to refer to
non-members, as it was seen to be a 'put-down' of anyone outside the
group.  I haven't noticed that making much difference, though...

"Reality is an illusion suffered by those without the intelligence to
imagine anything better"

***********************************************************************
*  chris@keris.demon.co.uk      *                                     *
*  chriscr@cix.compulink.co.uk  *  FIAWOL (Filking Is A Way Of Life)  *
*  100014.3217@compuserve.com   *                                     *
***********************************************************************
From: gjschmid@cantor.math.uwaterloo.ca (Greg Schmidt)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re:    What _ought_ to be in a proper course on sf?
Date: 21 Jan 93 16:21:26 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo

JLINTHI1@ua1vm.ua.edu wrote:
>I took a SF course this past summer...

I think I'll jump on the bandwagon here.  I also just finished an SF course
which I quite enjoyed.  The reading list looked like this (not in this order):

_Falling Free_, Lois McMaster Bujold
_Blood Music_, Greg Bear
_Where Late The Sweet Birds Sang_, Kate Wilhelm
_The Grey Prince_, Jack Vance
_Grass_, Sherri S. Tepper
_Voyage To The Red Planet_, Terry Bisson
_When Gravity Fails_, George Alec Effinger
_Bone Dance_, Emma Bull
_The New Hugo Winners_ \  Selected stories from these anthologies
_Mirrorshades_         /

The assumption was made that people taking the course have read at least
some of the "classics", so they don't have to be covered, so the focus was
on newer books.
 _________________________________________________________________
/ _ \     Greg Schmidt (gjschmidt@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca)    \
\__) \                                                             \
     | "It's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to |   __
      \      open your mouth and remove all doubt." - Unknown       \ (_ \
       \_____________________________________________________________\___/
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
From: gharlane@nextnet.csus.edu (Gharlane of Eddore)
Subject: Justified "Peace-Bonding" (was: Re: Boskone)
Followup-To: alt.dev.null
Summary: *sometimes* it's okay.
Keywords:   Agrippa was a Hag, pass it on.
Organization: Evil Beings From Planet Eddore, Inc.
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 06:45:08 GMT

chris@keris.demon.co.uk commented:

> From: chris@keris.demon.co.uk (Chris Croughton)
> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 22:26:41 +0000
> Organization: Keristor Systems
> 
> Unfortunately, some of us have had experience with cons where
> they *have* gone over the top.  A friend once had someone try to
> confiscate her sewing materials, because the needles were dangerous
> and "could be used to injure someone".
> 

On the other hand, I must admit that some years ago, when I attended
the "Fantasy Worlds Con" in Berkeley, a shindig run by Marion Zimmer
Bradley's fans, I was very reassured and more than somewhat pleased 
to note the large number of necklace-pendant crystals which were
heavily peace-bonded.

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
From: atc@deveel.aero.org (A.T. Campbell)
Subject: Science Fiction Bookstores in LA area?
Organization: The Aerospace Corporation; El Segundo, CA
Distribution: ca
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 22:27:57 GMT


-- 

A. T. Campbell, III 
atc@deveel.aero.org
The Aerospace Corporation, El Segundo, CA
From: mlperkin@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (mildred l perkins)
Subject: Re: Designing a Course (was: Re: What _ought_ to be in a proper course on sf?)
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 19:21:23 GMT

In <1k8v01INN5t@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu> phydeaux@guru.med.cornell.edu (Dave Weingart) writes:

>In article <C1H2rE.Ho4@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, mlperkin@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (mildred l perkins) writes:
>|> I've got no problem at all with including Heinlein, as he was most
>|> assuredly an important author.  Does this preclude his writing being
>|> terribly sexist?

>Does it matter?  For crying out loud, we're not talking about a course
>on Contemporary Views of Women and Feminism in SF...we're talking about
>an overview of the field here.  

How much of an overview are we talking about here?  Do we want a student
to take this proposed class and, when asked what it was all about,
answer, "Well, we read one story about space ships, one story about
initial meetings with other life-forms, one story about robots..."  Will
this student have learned anything, really, about science fiction or
will he or she have been convinced that it doesn't relate in the least
bit to any aspect of their life?  Have we stretched the mind of the male
student to at least consider a female view of space
ships/meetings/robots?  Have we given the female reader anything of
interest for her to read besides "The Adventures of Roger Ramjets"?

*I* thought science fiction was supposed to challenge and broaden the
world of the reader, not be an exercise in rigidity.

>So Heinlein was sexist...does it
>matter?  He was raised in, and wrote for, a different time (and he's
>sort of dead these days).  You can't expect to make ex post facto
>judgements on Heinleinesque social policies, any more than you can
>bitch about how anti-Jewish Shakespeare was in "The Merchant of Venice."

This is illogical.  I can't judge Heinlein's writing to have been
sexist because he's dead?  I can't bitch about Shakespeare's anti-Jewish
nature and still enjoy the play?  I'm only going to say this one more
time - listen carefully.  I haven't once said "Heinlein was a bad
writer" or "Heinlein shouldn't be included in an sf syllabus" .  I
merely commented that in my opinion, Heinlein would be an excellent
subject to study if the theme was sexism in science fiction.

>If we all start walking around with chips on our shoulders, we'll never
>get _anywhere_.

>-- 
>73 de David Weingart  KB2CWF    In the event I am captured or killed, the
>phydeaux@cumc.cornell.edu       Cornell University Medical College and the
>phydeaux@guru.med.cornell.edu   Department of Academic Computing will disavow
>phydeaux@src4src.linet.org      any knowledge of my opinions.
From: rog (Roger Peppe)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: A Little Diversion...
Keywords: pointless trivia questions
Date: 22 Jan 93 15:57:23 GMT
Reply-To: rog@ohm.york.ac.uk
Organization: Electronics Department, University of York, UK

In article <1993Jan20.204722.5991@netcom.com> dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig) writes:
>seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp):
>>>5.  Who helped Paul Hoehler break the Peace?
>>	???
> It was in Vinge's "The Peace War".  Jill something...

Wili Wachendon

>>>7.  Which Heretic earned his soubriquet by declaring against the
>>>battle-religion?
>>		??

Minanonn the Heretic (julian may, saga of the exiles)

> >>20.  Who became resident Wizard in Gaea, with the unwanted side-effect of
> >>being forced to control the reproduction of a race of centaurs?
> 
> Names are escaping me in droves today...Ciroco (sp?) from Varley's
> Titan trilogy.

Cirocco Jones
From: dick@smith.CHI.IL.US (Dick Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: A question about the non-mundane world.
Date: 22 Jan 93 07:35:28 GMT
Reply-To: dick@smith.UUCP (Dick Smith)
Organization: R. H. E. Smith Corp., Wheeling, IL

In article <105523@netnews.upenn.edu> yee@mipg.upenn.edu (Conway Yee) writes:
>Well, I know that for fans of sf/f, the rest of the world is the "mundane"
>world.  What is the non-mundane world?  The "real" world, perhaps?
>
>Also, who coined the word "mundane" and when?  Was it Piers Anthony in the
>Xanth series (shudder)?

Fans did, and well before Piers Anthony ripped off the terminology.  And
to think that Piers doesn't even seem to like fandom much.

The term is defined in Dick Eney's _Fancyclopedia II_, which was
published in 1959.  It's a short definition, as if anyone but a neo
would already be familiar with the word, and there is no credit given,
as Eney usually does with recent coinages.  I'd guess it goes back to
first fandom, or before.  I don't have a copy of Fancy I (1950) to see
if it was singled out there.

Fandom is the non-mundane.  Only a few would confuse fandom with the
real world... much as we pretend.

-- 
Dick Smith				dick@smith.chi.il.us
		Dick & Leah for DUFF!!
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc