From: javad@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com (Agha Javad)
Subject: Re: Women in Iran
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 19:11:11 GMT
Organization: LabaniyyAtee-e-Sar-e-Koocheh

In article <1992Nov9.180307.2065@ucbeh.san.uc.edu> minhaszt@ucbeh.san.uc.edu writes:
>In article <1992Nov9.195235.10358@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com>, javad@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com (Agha Javad) writes:
>> In article <1992Nov8.180122.2058@ucbeh.san.uc.edu> minhaszt@ucbeh.san.uc.edu writes:
>>>In article <1992Nov7.040957.20138@wuecl.wustl.edu>, seyyed@wuee1.wustl.edu (Seyyed Mahdavian) writes:
>>>> In article <1992Nov6.192738.6666@athena.mit.edu> lking@athena.mit.edu (Loren King) writes:
>>>> 
>
>like i said before, most of the governments in that area of the world are not
>conducive to peace of mind. however, when i was referring to coming to america
>for an education i was refering to both men and women, not just women alone. i
>did not make that clear. and i still feel that if the standard of education was
>higher, there would not be the need for as many people to come here.
>

agreed. but still people would come and see and judge for themselves.

>>>
>>>western people have a cultural arrogance that they are proud of. and anyone who
>> 						^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>does not think th same way that they do is backward. for some reason i think
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> 
>> Where have we seen this before?  Now let me think, hmmmmm.....
>
>muslim people are not that way (in general). within the things that it allows

Some of our muslim friends, especially some of the ones on this net are
definitely that way.  They have made it clear that theirs is the only way,
since God said so, and that they are to be respected and are better than others.
This planet is too small for that kind of attitude.


>or is indifferent about, it is relativistic, outside of that of course, it is
>not. when muslims say that the west is backward or uncivilized, there is a lot
>of history behind that kind of a statement and should not be taken out of that
>context. muslims used to be the rulers of the world, and we know that we shot
>ourselves in the foot on many occasions to speed our downfall. this naturally
>allowed the colonialist powers to gain easier access to everything we had.
>while they took away our resources, they kicked us around and attacked
>everything we held valuable. i know it was only a hundred years ago when the
>brits were burning our qurans and forcing many muslims to say prayers for the
>queen of england. at the same time teaching us that we were backward and were
>shit for being muslims in the first place. you can not deny these things mr.
>javad.  this is the heart and soul of the western experience in our muslim

No, nobody can deny this.  Nor can they deny the rape and pillage of nonmuslim
countries during the muslim invasions.  zafar jan, I defeinitely see your
point.  It is difficult to find a people without wounds from the past
on this planet.  I am not defending the brits, but I cannot understand how
you take what their army did as grounds to say that the west in general
is backwards.  Yes, there are many social problems here, and for each one
I can give you a social problem in muslim society.  For example, there might
be more single mothers here, but the same mothers who are at least working
might be begging on the streets in our country.  Maybe more kids have fathers
in muslim countries than here, but what kind of fathers?  Are the fathers 
always good for them, or do they beat their wife and kids?  I mean the 
can go on and on, and I think you can agree with me, except that you probably
think that still, there are more social problems in the west than in muslim
countries.  I can still see your point there, too.

But let me ask you this.  Do you think the ONLY way to a society with
less problems is Islam?  Maybe that is one way.  But look at India,
China, Japan, Taiwan, etc. where education carry a high value, people
are taught in school to respect their teachers and elders, they are
taught to work hard, and generally, the social values themselves push
the people towards doing good things.  Islam may be one way of doing this,
but it is not the only way.  And also, I think that it is the social
structure, not the political structure, which breeds or prevents these
problems. 

You mention that if western style freedom were in our countries, the 
situation would be ripe for more corruption.  But rather than compare
our countries with the west, which has very different way of thinking and 
culture, let's compare similar countries.  Or even the same country.  In
Iran, do you think that before the revolution, there was less corruption
and drinking and drugs and prostitution than now?  But we haven't had the
freedoms that you are talking about for the last 13 years, and Islam is
actually enforced and part of the legal structure.  How much has it helped
in this regard?  I tend to think more that these social problems (or lack
thereof) come from people's personal values, and that means they have to
voluntarily have those values.  It is a more social and cultural thing than
a political thing.  It comes from the people's culture and way of thinking,
and no gov't can enforce anything to change that.  That change must come from
within the people themselves.  The gov't can only do so much to prevent 
guys from dumping their pregnant girlfriends or wives for example.  It can 
force them to make child support payments and so on, but the guy is still 
a jerk in the end, and won't make a good father anyway.  

>lands. this is definitely how mr. king is judging us. because we are not like
>him, we don't drink, we don't have alcoholism in our lands, we don't have the
>kind of drug problems that this country has (though it is there). we don't have
>the aids problemss in our lands (though it is there to some extent). with the
>relativistic western tradition and the so-called "freedom" that comes with it,
>the environment would DEFINITELY be ripe for these problems and more. yes they
>are racist and i hold by my statement that mr. king is speaking through his
>cone shaped hood. no western tradition should not be introduced whole heartedly
>in our lands. yes it is backwards, the result of it shows. we don't want those
>preblems on the scale that they are here. can't you see that mr. javad? it
>isn't  a question of racism, it is a question of knowing what we want our 
>society to be.

a couple of questions:

Could you be more specific as to why Loren is racist?  From what I understand,
he just disagrees with a certain religion being an official religion and 
enforced by the gov't.  Am I missing something?

When you say we don't want those problems, who are you referring to?  I mean
you have said yourself that you like Robert Plant, whose music is against the
"Islamic" Law in our country.  So are you saying you are corrupted?  Has
Robert Plant driven you to drugs and alcohol and wife batterring?

Agha zafar, I think man many factors cause or prevent the problems you are
talking about, and I don't think that they completely coincide with having
or not having Islam.  It would be nice and easy if we could just enforce
Islam and get rid of all those problems without introducing new ones. 
But I am afraid you and I both know that it is just a little more complicated
than that.
>> 
>>>from our religion, in fact science is a subset of our religion. no other
>>>religion has that. 
>> 
>> Yet another reason that muslims are superior.  We certainly haven't had a 
>> shortage of those, now have we?
>> 
>> If you want to kiss the sky, you better learn how to kneel first.
>
>totally agree, that is why we have to pray five times a day, be humble to god.
>remind ourselves that this life is only temporary, and we have to answer to
>him. it is a good thing don't you think. ours is not a once a week religion.
>it is a way of life. and i am proud of that thank you.

Very nice, and I respect that.  But I meant being humble in general.  And
I just ask you to keep in mind that there are many other ways of life
besides yours that also happen to be good, and I ask you to respect them,
as you have so far.  And I am proud of you too.

>> 
>>>zafar
>> 

Agha Javad