HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: haq@ec.ecn.purdue.edu (haq)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: Bosnia's recent successes
Date: 12 Sep 92 22:03:57 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network

In article <1613@lysator.liu.se> svedja@lysator.liu.se (Dejan Ilic) writes:
>I`m a Serb interesen in some things..
>
>I would like to get a comment about following


        STUFF DELETED

>
>6) Where does the Muslims get the arms for the more and more frequent counter attacs in sarajevo ?? And why does the world blame serbs for fighting there even when Muslims attack ? I've heard noone saying to the Muslims to stop fighting in sarajevo.

   THIS IS THE MOST RIDICULOUS COMMENT THAT ONE COULD COME UP WITH. WHAT YOU
ARE SAYING IS THAT THE BOSNIANS/MUSLIMS HAVE NO RIGHT TO RESIST THE PLANNED
MASSACRE OF THEIR MEN< WOMEN AND CHILDREN. A TERRORIST ENTERS A HOME, TAKES
EVERYONE HOSTAGE IN THEIR OWN HOME, RAPES THE WOMEN, BRUTALLY MURDERS THE
INNOCENT CHILDREN AND ELDERLY. THE ATTROCITIES CONTINUE UNCHECKED. AT SOME
STAGE THE RESIDENTS WHOSE HOME HAS BEEN INVADED TRY TO DEFEND THEMSELVES AND 
PEOPLE LIKE YOU SAY " THE RESIDENTS DON'T WANT PEACE". 

You have asked for comments on your totally illogical remarks. I have only this thing to say " Is the fighting going on in Bosnia or Serbia, are the Serbians
agressors or Bosnians, are the Bosnians being forced to migrate from their
homeland or the Serbians, do the Serbians have the vast military set-up of
ex-Yogoslavia at their disposal or the Bosnians ?  When the water and electric
supply of Sarajevo is disrupted, do the Serbians suffer or the Bosnians die
of thurst and hunger ? "  It seems like the serbs who are committing all these 
attrocities you also do not have any regard for human rights, otherwise you
would never have made such a comment.

--
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: cicic@cc.uow.edu.au (muris cicic)
Subject: Re: B-H is NO place for IWN
Organization: University Of Wollongong
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 92 10:44:17 GMT

mmilicevic@spike.psc.scarolina.edu writes:

>Hey you from IMNET don't you dare to post your Islamic crap in this group
>again. B-H musilims are not that crazy about Islam as you think, so save
>your cheap propaganda for some other place, and stay away from this 
>newsgroup. If we want someting that is definitely this: NO TO BE IDENTIFIED
>WITH ISLAM FUNDAMENTALISM!

>Good luck, MLADEN

AGREE 100 %.

Muris
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: abrodnik@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca
Subject: Re: Bosnia's recent successes
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 21:26:09 GMT

In article <1631@lysator.liu.se> svedja@lysator.liu.se (Dejan Ilic) writes:
>
> There is just one thing we have to get straight.. You (Senad) are
> comparing Serbs with Germans (in WWII) and Americans (in Vietnam)
> and are all the time forgetting that there were Serbs living in B-H
> for centuries so you can't make the comparation like you did.

You are here right and wrong. Namely it is truth that Serbs are living
in B&H for centuries, but they (according to result of two last
censuses) did not represent not even a relative majority on almost
half of territory they are controlling now. And if control of
territory is not bad per se, the worse part of storry is that about a
millinon of non-Serbs have been expelled (put here in any word you
want) from this territory. This is the Serbian sin. Again, Serbian
here is a problematic adjective, as there are number of Serbs who
disagree with such policy starting from Mr.Panic, prime minister of
new-YU up to Mr.Karadzic'c son (I hope that explanation of who is
Mr.Karadzic is not necessary here). What do you think about this?

Best regards,

Andrej
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: deniz@mandolin.ctr.columbia.edu (Deniz Akkus)
Subject: Re: B-H is NO place for IWN
Organization: Columbia University Center for Telecommunications Research
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 15:38:18 GMT
X-Posted-From: mandolin.ctr.columbia.edu
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

>It is better for you to be part of a Muslim Ummah than to be part of a nationality
>that has no nation. 

What you have in Bosnia, primarily, is a Civil War.  That one side is
Christian the other Muslim obviously affects the situation, but it is
hardly Islam against the Christendom as the issue is trying to be
painted.  The best solution would be if peace could be ensured again,
and Muslims and Serbs could continue to live in peace.  This hardly
would be the solution if they became part of a Muslim Ummah.  

I don't see why the 'Islamic Brotherhood' is that interested in Bosnia.
And I do not buy the argument that it is feeling for the muslim
brothers.  Being part of an Ummah did not work for the Arabs when they
fought against the Turks on the side of the British in WW1.  Never mind
that they rebelled against the Khalifa.  So much for Islamic
brotherhood.   

>You are either a Muslim and thus our brother and we have to help and protect
>you 

This is hypocritical at best.  I could come up with a zillion examples
of events where the Islamic countries stood by.  What happened to the
Bulgarian Turks when they were evicted from Bulgaria?  What happened to
the Kurds as they fled into Turkey of all places from Iraq to escape
from chemical weapons?  Why did nobody from the Islamic countries offer
aid, help to take a few?  Where were the Islamic forces when Turkish 
Cypriots were being abused in Cyprus?  What happened in Afghanistan?
What did the Islamic brotherhood do when millions of Turkic people were
put on cattle wagons and transported into Central Asia on exile from the
Ukraine and the Caucusus at the end of WW2?  

Spare me.
Deniz Akkus deniz@ctr.columbia.edu

Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: svedja@lysator.liu.se (Dejan Ilic)
Subject: Re: Bosnia's recent successes
Organization: Lysator Academic Computer Society, Linkoping University, Sweden
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 15:42:24 GMT

All have the right to get weapons when the feel threat by some other side but nobody should use humanitarian transport to get arms.

Do you think that simmular things that you described didn't happend with the role attacker/victim reversed.
From: farzin@apollo3.apollo3.ntt.JP (Farzin Mokhtarian)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: Bosnia's recent successes
Date: 9 Sep 92 23:13:46 GMT
	<1992Sep9.070527.3361@sci.kun.nl>
Organization: none

In article <1992Sep9.070527.3361@sci.kun.nl> bartjan@cs.kun.nl (Bart-Jan Bouwers) writes:

 #In <1992Sep8.174419.2017@cbfsb.cb.att.com> mmokhtar@attmail.com (Mazen Mokhtar) writes:
 #
 #>Assalamu `alaykum,
 #
 #>  After suffering major defeats, the Bosnians appear to be scoring some
 #>successes against the Serbs. Does anyone have the details?
 #
 #It seems that the last success was the killing of 2 French UN soldiers.
 #This stupid war...
 #
 #>Peace be upon the rightreous,
 #
 #>Mazen Mokhtar
 #
 #Bart-Jan

But I heard on the news that it was *not* clear who shot the French UN soldiers.
        
  - Farzin Mokhtarian
    farzin@apollo3.ntt.jp
From: souissi@ec.ecn.purdue.edu (Ridha Souissi)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: B-H is NO place for IWN
Date: 13 Sep 92 19:54:28 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network

>
>Good luck, MLADEN
>

Thank you.  I think I will need it.  As for the people in B-H,
they need more than wishes of good luck.  They need weapons so
they can defend themselves against the serbian agressors.

Ridha.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: hareb_s@cubldr.colorado.edu
Subject: U.N. Inquiry
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 20:30:17 GMT

This is a news segment I found in a local newspaper:



		U.N. INQUIRY FINDS IMBROGLIO

	SARAJEVO, Bosnia-Hercegovina ------   An internal
U.N. inquiry has found that a U.N. convoy in which two 
French were killed drove onto an active battlefield despite
the lack of a cease-fire and after receiving conflicting 
orders, well-placed sources said Sunday.  Vehicles in the
column were hit first by serbian mortar rounds and then by
infantry fire from Bosnian lines, the sources said.
	The confidential findings contradicted the official 
U.N. version of the Sept.8 incident that said the deaths of
the two French soldiers and wouonding of five others 
resulted from a deliberate, pre-mediated attack by Bosnian 
troops.

End of news segment ---------------------------------------

Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: abrodnik@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca
Subject: Re: B-H is NO place for IWN
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 19:09:29 GMT

In article <1992Sep14.161632.7214@ee.eng.ohio-state.edu> rached@sample.eng.ohio-state.edu (Rached Zantout) writes:
>
>Now about the Muslim Brotherhood, the only interest for me as a Muslim in B-H is
>to save my brothers and sisters.

Are you implying that you don't care about people of other faith? Is
faith the only important matter which makes you to care about others?

Regards,

Andrej
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: arnsenad@me.utoronto.ca (Senad Arnautovic)
Subject: Re: Bosnia's recent successes
Organisation: U of Toronto, Dept. of Mechanical Engineering
Organization: UofT Mechanical Engineering
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 19:26:24 GMT

svedja@lysator.liu.se (Dejan Ilic) writes:

>6) Where does the Muslims get the arms for the more and more frequent counter attacs in sarajevo ?? And why does the world blame serbs for fighting there even when Muslims attack ? I've heard noone saying to the Muslims to stop fighting in sarajevo.

Are those people shelling from the hills tourists who dont't know what
they are doing? Of course, Sarajevans have to defend themselves against
"tourists"? Are you saying people of Sarajevo will sit and watch their
town being destroyed totally.
How can be peace achieved when Serbians have taken 70% of Bosnian
territory and now want peace and have U.N. forces protect the land
they occupy? It would have been similar as Germans in 1942 reaching
Stalingrad in Russia had asked (hypothetical) U.N. forces to come
to Stalingrad "to keep paece". In this situation would then Mr. Ilic
ask himself who gave the arms to Russians and why the Russians were attacking
Germans when Germans wanted peace in Stalingrad, why the Russians didn't
stop fighting in Sarajevo.

Senad Arnautovic
From: souissi@ec.ecn.purdue.edu (Ridha Souissi)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: B-H is NO place for IWN
Date: 14 Sep 92 17:28:08 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network

In article <1992Sep14.021033.10456@usceast.cs.scarolina.edu> mmilicevic@spike.psc.scarolina.edu writes:

>Ridha, sorry but you don't understand the issue. I'm from Sarajevo where I
>lived for 28 beautiful years, my family is there, all my friends are there...
>
>You just don't understand.

I don't see what you are refering to when you say that I don't
understand the issue.  It is true that you may know the situation
in Bosnia better since you are from Sarajevo.  I feel bad that
didn't know about the people of B-H more before these events,
and like many others had to have the media focus on it to learn
more.  In fact a fellow PhD Bosnian student I knew for five
years was born in a Muslim family and I didn't know that untill
after he left.  He does not really consider himself Muslim though.
To me the issue is clear to me:
it is enough to be Muslim (or muslim :) ) to be killed by the
serbs.  One Bosnian who visited from Chicago said that the serbs
would stop a Bosnian, ask him his name.  If he has a Muslim-sounding
name they kill him immediately.  If he refuses to tell his name,
they ask him to take off his pants.  If he is circumsized, then
they know he is Muslim and they kill him.  By the way, when
this Bosnian Muslim visited our small Muslim community here,
$15,000 was raised to help the people of Bosnia.  There was
even a woman who put her gold bracelet on auction.  There are
some people who care...

>
>MLADEN

Ridha
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: svedja@lysator.liu.se (Dejan Ilic)
Subject: Re: Bosnia's recent successes
Organization: Lysator Academic Computer Society, Linkoping University, Sweden
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 15:45:06 GMT

cicic@cc.uow.edu.au (muris cicic) writes:

>svedja@lysator.liu.se (Dejan Ilic) writes:

>>I`m a Serb interesen in some things..

>I am Human Being born in Bosnia, and am asigned for "ethnical cleansing",
>according to Serbian criteria and clasification.

>>I would like to get a comment about following

>Why don't you go to your countrymen on soc.culture.yug and ask them?  Please,
>we are tired of Gebels-like arguments and politics.  Before being cleansed,
>allow us a bit of resistance.

>Muris

I'll go there.
From: malenovi@plains.NoDak.edu (Malenovic Nikola V.)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: Bosnia's recent successes
Date: 15 Sep 92 21:16:08 GMT
Article-I.D.: plains.20369
Followup-To: /dev/null
Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computing Network

In article <BuDnC0.1zu@me.utoronto.ca> arnsenad@me.utoronto.ca (Senad Arnautovic) writes:
>How can be peace achieved when Serbians have taken 70% of Bosnian
>territory and now want peace and have U.N. forces protect the land
>they occupy?
>Senad Arnautovic


there are TWO things that are wrong here :

a) term "Serbians: reffers to : "all people who are NOT ethnic Serbs and are
born/live in Serbia"

b) ethnic Serbs live in B&H, dontya know that? and if you say that those are
ALL actually Serbs (i.e. "people who are ethnic Serbs and born/live in
Serbia") then I must say you are wrong. (not that there aren't any Serbs
fighting in B&H...)  This automaticly implies that you can't "occupy" the
land you were born in. (at least not by Bosnian Serbs)

but all of this is empty rethorics, as much as the 'call for intervention'
is. The peace in B&H WILL NEVER BE accomplished by ANY military means
(except the DEMONSTRATION of the force (maybe) of UN). what is needed is
political solution, i.e. political agreement between leaders of all three
major ethnic groups in B&H...

Nik
P.S. can't resist but to quote the unknown soldier from VIetnam:
"Fighting for the peace, is like fucking for virginity"
--
P.S.S. flames to /dev/null
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Saturday, 12 Sep 1992 20:09:37 CDT
From: <U15231@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Demonstrations against UN arms embargo


Demonstrations against UN arms embargo imposed on Bosnia-Herzegovina and
Croatia will be held on Daley Plaza in downtown Chicago at 2pm, Saturday
September 19.

The principal aim of demonstrations is to protest cynical policy of UN
and Bush's administration that has left Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia
defeseless against Serbian agression and destruction.

The demonstration is organized by Balkan Action Coalition of Chicago who
is calling to all ethnic, religious and humanitarian groups to join the
demonstrations.

For more information call Balkan Action Coalition of Chicago at (312)
829-2255 or Croatian Information Office at (312) 338-3834.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: deniz@mandolin.ctr.columbia.edu (Deniz Akkus)
Subject: Re: B-H is NO place for IWN
Organization: Columbia University Center for Telecommunications Research
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 15:34:49 GMT
X-Posted-From: mandolin.ctr.columbia.edu
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

>It is better for you to be part of a Muslim Ummah than to be part of a nationality
>that has no nation. 

What you have in Bosnia, primarily, is a Civil War.  That one side is
Christian the other Muslim obviously affects the situation, but it is
hardly Islam against the Christendom as the issue is trying to be
painted.  The best solution would be if peace could be ensured again,
and Muslims and Serbs could continue to live in peace.  This hardly
would be the solution if they became part of a Muslim Ummah.  

I don't see why the 'Islamic Brotherhood' is that interested in Bosnia.
And I do not buy the argument that it is feeling for the muslim
brothers.  Being part of an Ummah did not work for the Arabs when they
fought against the Turks on the side of the British in WW1.  Never mind
that they rebelled against the Khalifa.  So much for Islamic
brotherhood.   

>You are either a Muslim and thus our brother and we have to help and protect
>you 

This is hypocritical at best.  I could come up with a zillion examples
of events where the Islamic countries stood by.  What happened to the
Bulgarian Turks when they were evicted from Bulgaria?  What happened to
the Kurds as they fled into Turkey of all places from Iraq to escape
from chemical weapons?  Why did nobody from the Islamic countries offer
aid, help to take a few?  Where were the Islamic forces when Turkish 
Cypriots were being abused in Cyprus?  What happened in Afghanistan?
What did the Islamic brotherhood do when millions of Turkic people were
put on cattle wagons and transported into Central Asia on exile from the
Ukraine and the Caucusus at the end of WW2?  

Spare me.
Deniz Akkus deniz@ctr.columbia.edu
From: cicic@cc.uow.edu.au (muris cicic)
Subject: Re: Bosnia's recent successes
Organization: University Of Wollongong
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 92 01:40:18 GMT

svedja@lysator.liu.se (Dejan Ilic) writes:

>I`m a Serb interesen in some things..

I am Human Being born in Bosnia, and am asigned for "ethnical cleansing",
according to Serbian criteria and clasification.

>I would like to get a comment about following

Why don't you go to your countrymen on soc.culture.yug and ask them?  Please,
we are tired of Gebels-like arguments and politics.  Before being cleansed,
allow us a bit of resistance.

Muris
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: mmilicevic@spike.psc.scarolina.edu
Subject: MEDJU PRVIMA
Reply-To: mmilicevic@spike.psc.scarolina.edu
Organization: Univ of S Carolina College of Sci and Math
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 92 05:53:11 GMT

Evo, sada imamo svoju news-group posto nemamo svoju drzavu. Nazalost, ja sve
manje vjerujem da B/H ima ikakve sanse. Takodjer nazalost, 'etnic cleansing'
mora da se sprovede do kraja - a to je UZASNO. To je kao kad govno krene iz
guzice i vise mu nema povratka nazad. Sorry for the language. Ljudi su se
tako grozno uprljali u svemu ovome da vise ne mogu da zamislim kako bi uopste
mogli da zive zajedno. Ne postoji ta idealna demokratska buduca drzava koja
ce da pomiri i opere svu prosutu krv. Eto, makar da rat i ubijanje prestane
ali mir ce tek da bude strasan, ako ga ikada bude. Decenije ce morati da 
prodju da B/H ponovo vidi selameta.

Sorry, for being pesimistic... Mladen 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: rached@sample.eng.ohio-state.edu (Rached Zantout)
Subject: Re: B-H is NO place for IWN
Organization: The Ohio State University Dept of Electrical Engineering
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 16:16:32 GMT

You have to differentiate between Muslims and the so called "Islamic Countries".
Those countries you call Islamic Countries are ruling their people with other
than Islam. If there were a Khalifah (like at the time of the Ottoman Empire)
then you could blame the Islamic Khilafah of not helping Muslims.
Mind you that not all arabs sided with the british in WWI.

Now about the Muslim Brotherhood, the only interest for me as a Muslim in B-H is
to save my brothers and sisters. It is the same interest I have in Kashmir,
Palestine, Iraq etc...
The examples you gave are not valid since the Muslim population and the Islamic
movements around the world did the best they could to alleviate the harm and help
their brothers.

Take the example of Afghanistan, Muslims from all over the world helped Afghans
(By themselves, their money and collecting donations) free their country from the
aggressor (a super power) russia (USSR at that time). If you ask any Afghani
Mujahid he will tell you that the money and help of other Muslims were needed and
useful. This is an example of Muslims helping Muslims. 
Another example is that durung the " Desert Storm " many Muslims ventured into
Iraq (not to help Saddam) but to bring food and medecine to their Muslim brothers
and sisters. Some of them died on the "Highway of death" linking Amman to
Baghdad, others survived.
As I wrote before, Serbs are killing your child, raping your sister and putting
your brother in concentration camps. They are beseiging your friends and are not
allowing water nor electricity nor food to go in. They are burning your
neighborhood and destroying your home. Ask them why ? Why they want to do that to
you ? They will tell you bacause you are a Muslim (well, Non-Serb for that
matter). Now as a Muslim, you can think of yourself as a Bosnian and therefore
limit yourself to the help from Bosnians only. This way beleive me you will not
be able to withstand the Serb's pressure backed by Serbia and its might. You can
say that you with the Croats in the same boat and thus seek help from them. This
will also not work since we saw what they did to a shipment of arms from Iran,
and we hearwhat their "fundamentalists" are doing even inside B-H. In this whole
world no one will help you but your Muslim brothers and sisters. Every friday,
Muslims are collecting donations for B-H in the thousands. Many Muslim youth are
ready to fight for their Muslim brothers and sisters. Instead the "new world
order" is giving humanitarian aid while B-H leader is asking for arms to defend
the country.

As one of the readers of this newsgroup said:

"Does it matter if the Serbs kill you while you are hungry or while you are full
of food ?"

Wake up.

rached
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: avrat@engin.umich.edu (Ali Kodal)
Subject: Re: Bosnia's recent successes
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 92 00:38:28 EDT
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor

In article <1633@lysator.liu.se> svedja@lysator.liu.se (Dejan Ilic) writes:
>All have the right to get weapons when the feel threat by some other side but nobody should use humanitarian transport to get arms.
>
>Do you think that simmular things that you described didn't happend with the role attacker/victim reversed.




I think smuggling weapons is OK if the UN (which is tool of emperialist
west) puts embargo to you

Ali Kodal
From: mmokhtar@attmail.com (Mazen Mokhtar)
Subject: Re: B-H is NO place for IWN
Originator: mmdh@cbnewsf.cb.att.com
Organization: AT&T
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 14:29:01 GMT

In article <BuLDnq.248@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca> abrodnik@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca (Andrej Brodnik (Andy)) writes:

>Hm, Muslims represent a relative majority of population in B&H. I.e.
>there is less than 50% of those whose nationality is Muslim (and even
>much less of those with muslim faith).

  The percentage of Muslims in B-H is about 54%. It is impossible to look
into people's hearts to know who actually believes, but the majority of
Bosnians are Muslims.

>>   Look again. This is not a Shia vs Sunni issue. The issue is innocent
>> Bosnians being killed and displaced because they are Muslim.
>Hm, does that mean war against Croatians as well? In this case Muslims
>are minority in B&H.

  The Croatians are transgressors against B-H, in that they must be condemned.
They are also victims of Serbia, in that they must be supported. No matter
how you juggle the numbers, the percentage of Muslims in B-H is still above 50%.

>Do you know what is the number of Serbs still in Sarajevo, who are dieing
>under shells of their compatriots? It's not that simple as it seems.

  There are many Serbs in Sarajevo who support the Muslims because they
have a sense of decency. They are not being killed by Muslims. The only
Serbs being killed by Muslims are the ones on the hills, shelling the
Sarajevo without regards to justice.


Peace be upon the righteous,

Mazen Mokhtar

Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna