From: phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone)
Subject: Re: The Mother of All Flame Wars, Part 2 of 4
Organization: Generally in favor of, but mostly random.
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 17:50:30 GMT

In article <98146@bu.edu> kane@buast7.bu.edu (Hot Young Star) writes:
    >In article <1992Oct9.161925.3538@netcom.com> phil@netcom.com
    >>Well, do, or do not, male homosexuals on the average, have
    >>close to TWO orders of magnitude more sex partners than
    >>hetersexuals? Do you NOT accept that many many people find
    >>this disgusting?
    >>
    >You are using the phrase "two orders of magnitude"
    >deceptively, Phil. Most people with scientific backgrounds
    >will understand this to mean 10*10, or 100 times the
    >promiscuity.
    >
    >What you actually appear to be referring to is the Masters,
    >Johnson, and Kolodny studies which showed that straight
    >unmarried men have about 10 sex partners per year, and that
    >gay men have about 22 partners per year on average. The
    >difference is "two times", NOT "two orders of magnitude"!!!

Well, time out here. We have some MAJOR differences in "facts"

I'm not saying you are wrong or that I am right (yet! :-)), but
your figures and the ones that I have are very very much at odds.

In short, I have to go to the library, and that is going to be a week
or so.

Several comments, based on things I "know" but haven't verified.
I'm mentioning them ONLY because it will be a while before I can
afford the time.


Ball park figures I keep in mind is that a lifetime typical number of
partners is around 15 for men (that's TOTAL for entire life), and around
half of that for women.

Interestingly, every time I see those set of figures, in various popular
magazine articles (like Time), the numbers are always the same, and
so is the ratio -- men having about twice as many partners as women.

Several questions that your article has raised:

1. Your numbers are VASTLY different than any others.

2. Your ratio shows women with somewhat MORE sexual partners than
   men -- a VERY VERY different and unexpected number.

3. The numbers are out of anything I am familar with. The most
   promiscous men I know might have 2 or 3 different women a year.

4. Are the numbers an instance? Does a heteresexual single male,
   for the period of six months at age 18, have 6 partners, only
   to then settle down?

   Note that a key word is unmarried. Are you comparing brief
   periods in a hetereosexuals life .vs. the ongoing and continous
   homosexual lifestyle?

These are all issues I need to research -- right now, I only know that
your numbers are VASTLY different than the numbers I am familar with.

I mean, when the background number in my mind is 6 partners average
lifetime for a women, I could accept a number that is double or triple
that.

But 3-4 times a lifetime number for a YEARLY number?????



Could you repost the article? I have lost the original.







    >
    >As for the "digusting" part, then any straight man who beds a
    >different woman every month must also be depraved and
    >disgusting, too. The average gay man is not incredibly
    >different than the average unmarried straight man. The
    >behavior that Clayton always highlights---gay men who
    >frequent bathhouses and have a dozen partners a night---is
    >clearly on on fringe of a distribution of behaviors. Any
    >attempt to portray it as "NORMAL" gay behavior is outright
    >fraud.
    >
    >Do you really want to differentiate between bedding a new
    >person every two weeks instead of once a month? These aren't
    >married people, you know.
    >
    >Their promiscuity may be incredibly stupid in the age of
    >AIDS, but disgusting? What's disgusting about it? (Careful
    >how you use that word, "disgusting"!)
    >
    >In any case, you can't really compare the relationship
    >between two men to that between a man and a woman, NOT
    >because they are inherently different, but because men and
    >women are STILL socialized differently. Men are still taught
    >to be the hunters and the aggressors, and women the more
    >passive, intuitive, and sensible.
    >
    >Clayton implies that two men can not inherently have a
    >romantic and loving relationship, that their relationships
    >would naturally devolve into buddy-buddy, or competitive, or
    >sex-crazed relationships, and that is why gay relationships
    >supposedly don't last.
    >
    >There was a study done in the mid-80's by a gay male
    >professional couple--- one is a clinical psychologist, the
    >other a psychiatrist---the names escape me (one is named
    >McWhirter???)---who chronicled the relationships of roughly
    >150 male couples. Their durations ranged from 1 year to over
    >40 years. The average length in the relationship, if I
    >remember right, was about 15 years.
    >
    >As a comparison, new divorce statistics indicate that of all
    >the marriages which took place in 1989, 49% of those couples
    >are now divorced in 1992.
    >
    >Are you really going to go out on a limb and say that gay
    >male behavior is INCREDIBLY DIFFERENT than straight male
    >behavior? Sure, they're a bit different, but there is no hard
    >evidence of a night-and-day situation.
    >
    >We'd all do better to regard each other as _human beings_,
    >instead of "US vs THEM".
    >
    >Brian
    >------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    >kane@{buast7,astro}.bu.edu (Hot Young Star) Astronomy Dept,
    >Boston University, Boston, MA 02215. True personal salvation
    >is achieved by absolute faith in ones true self.
    >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
    >
    >
-- 
phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone)

If all the contributions of Dead White Males, a.k.a. Dead White Loathsome
Oppressors, were to vanish, you'd have the Politically Correct(tm) Loathsome
Oppressors using dull rocks to hunt and the Politically Correct Women of
Vision and Strength(tm) using leaves for tampons.

These opinions are MINE, and you can't have 'em!  (But I'll rent 'em cheap ...)
Newsgroups: ca.politics