HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: *jesus of Nazareth*
Date: 13 Oct 92 10:06:00 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

In article <Bvz81H.Lx@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca
(A.J.S. Nusbacher) writes:

>In article <4269@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon
> Ehrlich) writes:

>>Christianity considered to be an idolworship.

>By whom?

By Jews.

> Did Nachmanides consider Christianity to be avodah zarah?

Yes.

> I think not.

So you makes a mistake.

> Some did (and do) some didn't (and don't).

No, All wises consider christianity to be an idol-worship.

( Because the feer of christians you can find some appologies in the
 begining of some books , and some passages droppted out of many
halachic books. The most known case is that of the Meiri, In his time
christians were extremely cruel , thus he wrote that christians are so
nice  and thus  they can not be considered to be idol worshiper like
those  ancient nations lievd in the time of Rabenu Tam !! ( the people
of France 100 years before his time ... )
 There is an article in ZEFUNOT No. 1 that proves that Meiri opinion
is extremely clear: chriatians are idol worshiper  !   )


>>NOTE: It is interesting that christians selected that cruel murdering
>>      instrument - the cross - to be their symbol, and they even
>>      worship that bizaare instrument.

>Another rather unfair generalisation.  Many Christian sects have made a
>point of _not_ worshiping the cross.

Do you want me to look for all christian spicies?
The main stream christians: catholic, protestants,  the  eastern and
many many other types do worship the cross.

( Using the word "another" is unfair. The reader may be ,misleaded by
that word to think as if there is actually any unfair judgment in my
articles)


>Many synagogues have lions as part of the decoration of the aron kodesh.
>We don't worship lions -- heck, lions are not even kosher!

Such lions are forbidden at sinagogues.
but the fact is that synagogues are not built by wises but by riches,
and thus you can find all kinds of strange things.

In the Mosad harav Kook synagogue there were 12 empty tablets around
the arc. Rabbi Maimon ( Fishman) who was the Rabbi of that synagogues
stopped curving there the symbols of the 12 tribes. After his death
the one who run that  synagogues completed the work.
In the  synagogues I pray in during the week days there was a forbid den
7 candles menora , I tried to convince the one who run the  synagogues
to take it off, ( It was damadged in an excident , and so the problem
was solved ) , now I am in a middle of an effort to convince him to
throw a way the 2 lions even so they were donated by some American
person and to change them for some nutral decoration I'll pay for.
If you Aryk can help me in that task I'll furnished you with his
address.

Hag Sameach     gideon
From: de@moscom.com (David Esan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Humor in the Bible (was: Heroes in the Bible)
Date: 16 Oct 92 13:47:47 GMT
Organization: Moscom Corp., Pittsford NY

In article <2939@ceylon.gte.com> sgutfreund@gte.com writes:
>But can anyone give explicit examples of humor in T'Nach?


How about Elijah's baiting of the priests of Ba'al during the sacrifice
competition on Mount Carmel?  


-- 
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 -->     David Esan      de@moscom.com  
 
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: MASH@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL (Michael Shimshoni)
Subject: On False Messiahs (was * Jesus * )
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 92 16:35:53 +0200

In: <1992Oct9.193623.21504@njitgw.njit.edu>
dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap) writes:

>In article <emc.718412200@noonian> emc@doe.carleton.ca (Eli Chiprout) writes:
>>This of course also happened with Shabtai Zevi.  His
>>following spread like wildfire to eastern Europe, the Balkans,
>>Italy, France, Morocco, Holland, Ottoman Empire, Egypt and in the land
>>of Israel.  More of "us Jews" were led astray with disastrous
>>consequences for many.
>
>An even stronger example was Bar Kochba.  He led a great rebellion
>(againt the Babylonians?) in his day.  Many, including Rabbi Akiba,
>thought he was the Messiah.  As a matter of fact, legend says that he
                                   ===========================
>actually was going to be the Messiah until he began claiming his
>victories in his own name instead of in the name of God.  After that,
>God decided not to make him Messiah after all and he soon afterwards
>died in battle.

Just a minor  point, I enjoy this combination of  "fact" and "legend".
On  the matter  itself, is  not hindsight,  as always,  such an  exact
science.  We all know  the end of Bar Kochba and  that before that end
he was supported by the great Rabbi Akiva.  Now "legend" tries to save
the reputation of R.  Akiva, by saying that B.K "actually was going to
be the  Messiah" etc. etc. rather  than condemning Bar Kochva  for the
calamity  he brought  on the  Jews of  his days  by his  arrogance and
blindness to political realities.

These days we  have the same matter again.  A  well organized campaign
is there to "hint" rather loudly that the present Lubavitcher Rebbe is
going to be the Messiah and  that "soon" he will reveal himself.  Once
this farce  is over, excuses will  be found why after  all the Messiah
had not come.   About the damage this will cause  to those many simple
souls who  were misled by that  propaganda, no one cares.   Lessons of
all  previous  false  Messiahs  and  the  tragedies  they  caused  are
forgotten once the current "real" one is about to "arrive".

>David Charlap

 Michael Shimshoni
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: moskowit@panix.com (Len Moskowitz)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Heroes in the Hebrew Bible
Date: 14 Oct 92 15:24:48 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix & Internet, NYC

In article <1992Oct13.212136.5563@leland.Stanford.EDU>
miriah@loro-next.Stanford.EDU (Claire Bacher) writes:

>The heroes and heroines of the Hebrew Bible (eg., Abraham, Moses, Samuel,  
>David, Ruth, Deborah) although noble in various ways, are also flawed.   
>What does this suggest about the moral values of the Hebrews and their  
>concept of heroes ?

What it suggests is that Jews see the world as consisting of a balance
between qualities and never as black-and-white.  Even the greatest
Hero of all (G-d) manifests aspects of Chesed (Love) and Judgement,
Wisdom and Understanding.

-- 
Len Moskowitz
moskowit@panix.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: stovall@ficus.cs.ucla.edu (Steven Stovall)
Subject: Re: Protocals of Zion problem
Organization: UCLA, Computer Science Department
Distribution: soc.culture.jewish
Date:  9 Oct 92 19:46:54 GMT

mgoller@uceng.UC.EDU (Michael Goller) writes:

>When I was in Los Angeles over the I went into a coffee shop/bookstore
>called Big & Tall.  In their Jewish section I discovered a copy of the 
>Hnry Ford Sr's THE INTERNATIONAL JEW  on the shelf
>(to an Eli Wiesel book yet!).  When I took
>it to the clerk and complained - explaining exactly why I was upset, she 
>the book from the shelf.  I can only assume she was returning it.
>	After leaving it occurred to me that perhaps the book was not
>part of their stock but something someone may have brought in and left on the
>shelf in an attempt to get it into distribution (and give it some 
>legitimacy).

>	I have two questions:

>		1) Has anyone in L.A. been to this cafe and have they noticed 
>			the presence of this book?
>		2) Has anyone else noticed the appearance of these books
>			at "mainstream" bookstore or cafes where which 
>			would lend legitimacy to the books (I mean, if
>			its at Walden's, it must be OK?)

I was shocked to find a copy of "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" in the
Eso Wan Bookstore, which is the most reputable Afrocentric bookstore in
town. I have since come to realize that anti-Semitism has become en vogue
among the cognoscenti of Afrocentricity.
_______________________________________________________________________________

steven stovall
stovall@exeter.cs.ucla.edu
(310) 825-7307

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish
From: MASH@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL (Michael Shimshoni)
Subject: Re:  *  Jesus Christ?  *
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 92 13:04:36 +0200

In: <9210051829.AA03409@ptms_dev.sbi.com>
gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler) states:

>thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Citecheck Hell) writes:
>>No, she wasn't.  The Christian Scriptures make a big point about tracing
>>Davidian lineage through to Joseph.  Which is kind of ironic, given that
>>Christian theology teaches that Joseph had nothing to do with the birth
>>of Jesus.
>
>Actually, it depends on which lineage you use.  Two gospels provide
>very different genealogies.  One, I believe Matthew, follows down
>to Joseph, then says he wasn't the father.  The other, I don't recall
>which, goes through to Mary, which is, of course, meaningless in Jewish
>law.  It is also interspersed with several women along the way.

I am  not so sure  why all  this is discussed  on scj (unless  the "j"
means  something else  :-) ).   I  am not  too familiar  with the  New
Testament, but I  do not recall any genealogy besides  that in Matthew
(but I do not claim that there is no other one).

In Matthew it does follow down to  Joseph, which opens some need for a
Christian "perush  Rashi" to explain it  away.  On the other  hand all
the ladies mentioned are never for the direct line, and are added only
as asides  on who the  mother was.  The  line is fully  paternal which
should  please the  Reformed  Churches :-).   Actually  the fact  that
mothers are mentioned  as some extra information can also  be found in
the  Tanakh.  It  often says  "veshem imo..."  (and his  mother's name
was...).  Also in  the elaborate genealogies starting  Chronicles I we
find this habit of sometimes mentioning *also* the mother.

>Neither coincides with lineages spelled out in Tanach.

Well, as far  as I recall there are also  some deviations in different
lists of the Tanakh.

>-Don Gertler

  Michael Shimshoni
From: leeper@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (Mark R. Leeper)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: JEWISH HERITAGE MONTH paragraphs
Date: 10 Oct 92 02:22:25 GMT
Article-I.D.: cbnewsj.1992Oct10.022225.16019
Organization: AT&T

In article <CPLS13-091092081427@145.1.92.160> CPLS13@email.mot.com (Steven_Cohn) writes:
> In article <1992Oct9.004449.1649@cbnewsj.cb.att.com>,
> leeper@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (mark.r.leeper) wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > 		JEWISH HERITAGE MONTH paragraphs
> > 
> 
> Text deleted
> 
> What is, and who has declared "JEWISH HERITAGE MONTH"?

There are several "heritage months" now.  There is an Asian Heritage
Month to look at contributions of Asians to our culture.  There is a
Black Heritage Month.  I don't know how those months got started, but
eventually they spread and I think even got acknowledged by
Congress.  I guess Jewish Heritage Month started the same way.
Locally a lot of different organizations try to schedule activities
around the month.  Our cinema club at work, for example, tries to
schedule films on Jewish themes during November.  Our local Science
Fiction Club had a discussion of Jack Dann's WANDERING STARS last
year.

[Again this is my last evening on the net until at least November 1
or so if you want to comment, send e-mail.]

				Mark Leeper
				...att!mtgzfs3!leeper
				(908)957-5619
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)
Subject: Re: Attending a More Traditional Service
Originator: scj@israel.nysernet.org
Reply-To: <gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)>
Organization: Nysernet
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 20:45:16 GMT

sutin@helios.ucsc.edu (Brian Sutin) writes:
>shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu (Eliot Shimoff) writes:

>>Laura, I think that the use of the term "treif" was unfortunate.

>Why?  Since a religious service of any kind is not listed in the Torah as
>one of the foods kosher to eat, it is clearly treif.

Perhaps it is neveilah.  Fortunately most Yom Kippur services are
trief, except the really drawn-out ones, that seem to last for a
full year.

-Don Gertler
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: bai@msiadmin.cit.cornell.edu (Dov Bai-MSI Visitor)
Subject: Re: sexism
Organization: /usr/local/lib/news/organization
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 14:40:28 GMT

In article <1992Oct12.191539.26528@guinness.idbsu.edu> holmes@opal.idbsu.edu
(Randall Holmes) writes:

>It isn't clear to me that Melanie is merely "expressing her feelings".
>It seems to me that her argument can be expressed (at least
>approximately) via syllogisms:
>
>	Sexism is bad.
>	The Torah is sexist.
>	 therefore, the Torah is bad.
>
>	All works of God (if IT exists) are good.
>		(pronoun altered in deference to Melanie)
>	The Torah is bad (taken from conclusion of above syllogism).
>	therefore, the Torah cannot be the work of God.
>
>	Some of this reconstruction is conjectural, of course.	Now it
>is clear from the premiss "Sexism is bad" that she takes as primary
>certain modern Western values.  If the premiss "The Torah is sexist"
>is correct, then, at least in my conjectural reconstruction of her
>argument, she has no choice but to reject the Divine origin of the
>Torah.  Clearly she does NOT accept as a primary premiss that the
>Torah is the word of God, or this argument would have ended up
>as a _reductio ad absurdum_ of one or another of the premisses of the
>argument outlined above.  I would ask the first respondent why he
>thought that it was at all likely that Melanie would accept as a
>primary premiss that the Torah is the word of God.  I would ask the
>second respondent where Melanie's _feelings_ necessarily enter into
>the matter.


I was looking for the missing link between Melanie's past and present.


Since Melanie indicated that she was brought up in an Orthodox
environment I assumed ( note the IF in my first posting ) that at
an EARLY PERIOD in her life she believed that the Tora is devine.

TODAY, however, it is clear that Melanie does not believe in the Jewish
law being given by God, and she is probably an atheist.

So, my question was how did the transition between her past and present
value-systems occur. She did say that the reason for the transition
was the recognition that the Bible is sexist. But that by itself could
not be a sufficient reason without (a) Assuming the modern definiton for
sexism - many Orthodox people claim that the Jewish Law is not sexist,
and more importantly (b) Taking for granted that what we perceive in
out society to be bad, has a validity above the commandments of a God.
Why did Melanie make that assumption ?


Dov
From: sg04@ploni.gte.com (Yechezkal Shimon Gutfreund)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Humor in the Bible (was: Heroes in the Bible)
Date: 15 Oct 92 14:36:02 GMT
Reply-To: sgutfreund@gte.com
Organization: GTE Laboratories, Waltham MA

This thread reminds of something:

A non-religous Israeli once challenged me to give examples
of humor in the Bible (by this he meant Tanach, and specifically
the chumash). The closest I could come was the Rashi's dealing
with Avraham's purchase of the Cave of Machpela from Efron -
which I find hysterical. Haman's downfall also makes for
good reading (especially when one adds in the various
midrashic sources).

But can anyone give explicit examples of humor in T'Nach?

-- 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Yechezkal Shimon Gutfreund		 		  sgutfreund@gte.com
GTE Laboratories, Waltham MA			    harvard!bunny!sgutfreund
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
From: ask@cbnews.cb.att.com (Arthur S. Kamlet)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: * Yeshu ? *
Date: 16 Oct 92 01:36:40 GMT
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories,  Columbus, Ohio

In article <2682@israel.nysernet.org> warren@nysernet.org writes:
>dg = gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)
>
>dg: There is no n+1 "coming" for n not equal to zero.
>me: must n be an integer?
>dg: No.  But it must be real.
>
>Perhaps imaginary values of n are for occasions that the mashiach
>almost came but didn't?

You raise a very complex issue, indeed.
-- 
Art Kamlet  a_s_kamlet@att.com  AT&T Bell Laboratories, Columbus
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: On Polish Anti-semitism
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 05:17:10 GMT

In article <matthew.718856687@mugga> matthew@stats.mu.oz.au (Maciek Blasikiewicz) writes:
>roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:

>>>No, no, it is not one statement or mistake, lets be honest.
>>>It is action that is well known in Canada, people over there
>>>were fighting with that distortion for long time through
>>>all accessible means. But there is apparent stubborn feedback
>>>about that and we had voices from s.c.j. saying that entire
>>>problem is closeed because it is proper to call those camps Polish.

>>ONly on grounds of geography -- I don't think anyone argued that
>>Poles built or operated them.

>I know PERSONALLY people who agrued with ME that POLES BUILT AND
>OPERATED DEATH CAMPS.

Live and learn -- so there are people who are massively misinformed.
I'm sorry this happened, and can only say that it speaks to the
terrible state of education in most places on earth.  

However: the reason this came up was that someone equated people 
saying this (whatever people, I don't know) with the writing and
continued distribution of the Protocols of the Learned Elders of
Zion, and that's *still* not a very good comparison.

Roger
>
>
>MB
From: rlk@underprize.think.com (Robert Krawitz)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Intermarriage
Date: 9 Oct 92 10:56:05
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge Mass., USA
	<1992Oct8.015854.3744@cbnewsk.cb.att.com>
	<BvtEFM.8vJ@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>
	<1992Oct8.205504.28778@cbnewsk.cb.att.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: underprize.think.com
In-reply-to: alu@cbnewsk.cb.att.com's message of Thu, 8 Oct 1992 20:55:04 GMT

In article <1992Oct8.205504.28778@cbnewsk.cb.att.com> alu@cbnewsk.cb.att.com (Alan Lustiger) writes:

   In article <BvtEFM.8vJ@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes:
   >In article <1992Oct8.015854.3744@cbnewsk.cb.att.com> alu@cbnewsk.cb.att.com (Alan Lustiger) writes:
   >
   >>And I salute you, Marc Krawitz, for having the guts to publicly say
   >>in a Jewish newsgroup that the continued existence of the Jewish
   >>people is of no concern to you, and that your needs outweigh those
   >>of the Jewish community as a whole. It is also refreshing to hear
   >>a Jewish college student explicitly say that the destruction of his
   >>people is "healthy," as interrmarriage is a "fundamental tool"
   >>for reducing racism, cleverly implying that those of us who actually
   >>value the Jewish religion are racists.  (BTW, when did race enter 
   >>the picture? Or do you view Judaism as a race? I think I've heard
   >>that done once before...)
   >
   >I see no such statement by Mr. Krawitz.  There are large numbers of quite
   >serious Jews whose attitudes are substantially different from those of
   >Mr. Lustiger.  There is no one Jewish culture; cultures need to evolve.

   I thought that it was obvious that I was not saying that Mr. Krawitz
   explicitly is calling for the destruction of Jewry, but rather that
   I was pointing out that the ramifications of what he is advocating would 
   in fact have that effect.

It wasn't obvious at all -- you claimed that he "publicly said...that
the continued existence of the Jewish people is of no concern to [him]".
Marc said nothing of the sort.  If you wanted to point out that what he
was advocating could have as a side effect the destruction of the Jewish
people, say so without the imputation that he believes that that side
effect is a good thing.
--
ames >>>>>>>>>  |	Robert Krawitz <rlk@think.com>	245 First St.
bloom-beacon >  |think!rlk				Cambridge, MA  02142
harvard >>>>>>  .	Thinking Machines Corp.		(617)234-2116

Member of the League for Programming Freedom -- write league@prep.ai.mit.edu
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Subject: Re: The I-can't-believe-they-got-a-hescher-on-this thread
Organization: liver ---> spleen
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 12:58:55 GMT

In article <1992Oct9.183143.14877@cbnews.cb.att.com>
ask@cbnews.cb.att.com (Arthur S. Kamlet) writes:

>If someone pronounces a "hex" over the matzoh or over the meat
>counter at the kosher butcher shop would that make the meat
>unkosher?

>I understand that unboiled wine is a special category, but why would
>matzoh be made unkosher by any words anyone said about it?  Why
>should Jews care about the intent of a priest's recitation or of a
>hexer's recitation?  They are just words, and words we do not
>believe to have any power?   By saying that matzoh that or wafers or
>whatever that has had words and ceremony performed around them are


I'd open the matza box, check it, and worry if and only if I notice a
change.
-- 
Sam Saal      kingfish!saal OR saal@kingfish.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
From: gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)
Subject: Re: * Yeshu ? *
Originator: scj@israel.nysernet.org
Reply-To: <gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)>
Organization: Nysernet
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 17:32:52 GMT

emc@doe.carleton.ca (Eli Chiprout) writes:
> But many Jews DID see enough in [Yeshu] to proclaim him
> Messiah in the first century.

Well, going by that standard, I guess the trinity will have to
fight it out with Sun Myung Moon and L. Ron Hubbard.

It is a tragedy that so many Jews get involved in these cults,
but it is more a testament to their ignorance of our rich
tradition.  Most of those joining cults have not had particularly
"Jewish" upbringings.  They are generally not well educated in
Jewish ideas and texts.  J4J, for example, preys on this type of
Jew.  They know their arguments can be easily refuted by someone
with a strong Jewish education, so they usually shy away from them.

This is why J4J members often join (read "infiltrate") youth groups.
There have been several (many?) cases of xxFTY shabbatonim being
attended by J4J-ers trying (often successfully) to lure kids into
their cult.  These kids are ill-equipped to handle to onslaught
of misinformation provided.  They also have a false sense of
security, being on a "Jewish" shabbaton.

I am not criticizing Christians here.  Their religion is perfectly
fine, for Christians, when based axiomatically on their own texts.
But even most Christian scholars reject the arguments that are
employed by J4J and thier ilk.

How many true Jewsih scholars, those aware of the Jewish view
of the Mashiach, have been taken in by these groups?  Sure,
even in earlier days many Jews thought they knew who the
Mashiach was.  But when the potential Mashiach died without
the necessary signs appearing, they knew it was over.  Get
the job done right the first time or your contract will not
be extended.  There is no n+1 "coming" for n not equal to zero.

Those who remained were either fooled or they consciously rejected
Jewish tradition.  Either way, they can in no way support their
rebellious decision via Judaism, at least not honestly.

-Don Gertler
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish