HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: doconnor@sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Even Mongols may eventually "get it".
Date: 9 Jan 93 13:45:51
Organization: Intel i960(tm) Architecture
NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.intel.com
In-reply-to: vader@meryl.csd.uu.se's message of Sat, 9 Jan 1993 03:13:34 GMT


vader@meryl.csd.uu.se ("]ke Eldberg") writes:
] Greetings from William de Corbie!
]
] Buri Dogshin (Dennis O'Connor) wrote, apropos my efforts to
] do something about the fantasy aspects of the SCA "system":
]
] Thus, I think that your observation rests on reality; sociologists
] have found, whether they have investigated a whole country or any
] subset thereof, that there are 10% who are, in various ways, the
] active and leading ones. The other 90% prefer to have things remain
] "as always". They will grudgingly accept changes when such happen
] -- and then the new situation will become their "as always", which
] they absolutely don't want to change...

Is this just Rand-style elitism or blindly optimisitic change-is-always-good ?
I refuse to accept that those who resist a change (as opposeed to all change)
are automaticaly part of some lesser "unwashed mass" that don't contribute to
society or the Society. 

Care to name, BTW, which of the people on the net, or of your
own group, are the "90%" who don't contribute ? Or when you
say that only 10% are active, does that imply the other 90%
contribute via some form of inactivity ?

] Majorities don't matter here; intellect and open minds do. The people
] who make this Society live and thrive are those who have ideas about
] its future, those who want to make something out of what they see.

Baloney. The Society exists for the majority of the Society, not
for some set of self-elected "intellectuals" who think they are 
the "active and leading 10%". If the intellectuals want something
different, fine : organize your own elite little bunch, play
by your own rules among yourselves, and play by the rules the majority
of the SCA wants when you play at SCA functions.

] This is why I am convinced that my efforts are not in vain. I will
] contribute to a better future SCA, even if I have to drag those 90%
] with me by the ears!

Aren't you special : you know what's right for everyone else
and are going to impose them on them even is you have to
"drag people by the ears".  BY WHAT RIGHT ?



--
Dennis O'Connor			doconnor@sedona.intel.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Heraldic Practice 
From: bloodthorn@sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Jennifer Geard)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 93 00:49:39 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Lethargy Inc.


Tibor quotes from Lord Laurel's letter on the matter of green trimounts....

I'm impressed.  It sounds like an eminently reasonable discussion.  I think I 
favour the "make it an accepted exception" alternative.

And while we're talking about such things, what *did* happen with the 
Trimarian Order of the Black Widow?

Pagan
________________________________________________________________________
Jennifer Geard                         bloodthorn@sloth.equinox.gen.nz
Christchurch, New Zealand
From: moore@mari.acc-admin.stolaf.edu (Michael Moore)
Subject: awarding awards 
Organization: Baron's College Nordleigh, Barony of Nordskogen, Middle Kingdom 
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 18:00:26 GMT

 I seek opinions and information from other Kingdoms and other gentles.

 Very often in this Society, a well-deserving gentle is given an award
 for their excellence in some area.
 
 All too often, they are not present at the Court where this is awarded.

 This happens, much to the consternation of those wishing to recognize
 this person, as well as the royalty awarding the award.

 Occasionally, such an award is collected by a friend of the well-deserving
 gentle, and given to them at some future time.  This may happen
 at home after the event, or through the mail, or at a business meeting
 of the group.               (Ack Poo :( )

 In my humble opinion, this devalues the award.  An award has more
 importance if given out by someone with proper "courtliness" (i.e.
 their Majesties, their Highnesses, or their Excellencies).

 Usually, in this area of the country (Southern Minnesota), this problem
 occurs with Kingdom Courts: their Majesties visit once about every six
 months (which seems reasonable), but this means that if a good gentle
 cannot get to that Kingdom Court (due to various mundane or other    
 conflicts), then their award is not handed out at a court at all.

 My suggestion to remedy this: have such awards be given over to the
 local Baron or Baroness, to be handed out by "proxy" (or another more
 period word) at the next Baronial Court.  This would mean that the
 award would still be handed out at a court, and would still have a 
 stronger meaning than an award sent through the mail or given out
 at a business meeting.

 On the negative side, this would increase the amount of awards 
 given out at Baronial courts
 (which isn't all bad, since our local Baronial courts are somewhat
 short, anyway), and increases the duties of the Barons and Baronesses
 (perhaps a Baronial Signet could store the awards).  There may be
 other problems of which I am not aware.

 However, on the positive side, this might increase the number of local
 people who recognize the reasons that this good gentle is receiving
 an award.
 
 Please mail (or post) your opinions on this to me (MOORE@stolaf.edu).
 I will be talking to our Baronial Curia sometime in the future about 
 this, and would like a more well-formed opinion on it before I go.

 Thank you for your opinions.

 In service to the servants of the Dream,
 Peregrine Illuminator
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: sherman@trln.lib.unc.EDU ("Dennis R. Sherman")
Subject: re: Fighting for Crown..Another question
Organization: The Internet
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 13:26:12 GMT

Greetings to the Rialto from Robyyan.

Gwydion ap Myrddin askes if both members of a couple have ever fought 
in Crown Tourney.

Short answer:  Yes.  Often.

Documented answer:  my lady wife, Sir Fern, and I have both entered 
the same Crown Tourney in both the Middle Kingdom, while we lived 
there, and in Atlantia, until we became landed Baron and Baroness.  
Neither of us has won for the other, yet, though :-(  In Ansteorra, 
Duchess Sir Rowan had to defeat her lord, Duke Sir Hector, to become 
the first queen by right of arms.  I know there are other couples that 
both fight and both enter Crown -- but these two examples should 
suffice to show it can and had been done.

*--------------------------------------------------------------------*
* Robyyan Torr d'Elandris  Kapellenberg, Windmaster's Hill  Atlantia *
*--------------------------------------------------------------------*
* Dennis R. Sherman  	         Triangle Research Libraries Network *
* dennis_sherman@unc.edu       Univ. of North Carolina - Chapel Hill *
*--------------------------------------------------------------------*
From: grimkirk@amiganet.chi.il.us (Mike Schneider)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Atmosphere vs Living history
Date: 5 Jan 93 16:29:40 CST
Organization: Amiga Network Information Systems

vader@meryl.csd.uu.se ("]ke Eldberg") writes:
>Greetings from William de Corbie!
>
>Grimkirk ap Greymoor wrote:
>
>> Those that I have spoken to would make such a move toward legislating
>> authenticity by decrying the status quo as undesirable and unauthentic,
>> as well as maintaining that the SCA's main thrust IS authenticity and
>> theatre. This contradicts Corpora's written statements to the contrary.
>> Corpora states that ATMOSPHERE via research and recreation is the goal,
>> and specifically states that the SCA is "living history" and NOT
>> dramatic performance.

WC> I think that it has come out abundantly clear in all previous Rialto
WC> discussions of legislation vs encouragement, that most of us prefer
WC> the latter. We have deliberately set a very low minimum level of
WC> authenticity, and though most of us would want the SCA to be MUCH
WC> more authentic than it is, I don't hear anyone calling for rules to
WC> achieve this. Have *you* heard such calls?  

Unfortunately, yes. Fortunately though, not at the Society level.

WC> I do not quite understand why you perceive "living history" as being
WC> in some way opposed to "authenticity"; but I may not have understood
WC> your message correctly.

You have misunderstood me. I don't think "living history" is in any way
conflicting with any efforts to strive for authenticity. The distinction I
thought I made was between "living history" and dramatic performance, and some
maintain that the latter *is* one of the goals of the SCA, a position which I
find to be in direct conflict with the written goals of the SCA (per Corpora).

WC> "Living history" as opposed to "dramatic performance" means that we
WC> learn by doing, i.e. we are not a show company. The reason that this
WC> distinction is made in Corpora is, at a guess, that the Corporation
WC> needs to define itself in a way that supports its claim to be a non-
WC> profit educational society.

Perhaps merely a matter of perspective, but I've always felt that the
distinction was made to allow us to "recreate" the Middle Ages instead of
re-enact it. Either way, I can't disagree with you.

WC> Thus, I agree that authenticity in individuals is best acheived
WC> by assistance and encouragement, not rules. But I do believe that
WC> atmosphere via research and recreation is one of the chief goals
WC> of the Society, together with learning and fun. Why should it not
WC> be? Is there anything wrong with atmosphere?

No, Not to me or you. But some would maintain that atmosphere can be better
produced by authenticity, and therefore we should legislate authenticity to
insure a better atmosphere. <sigh>.


Grimkirk -

Mike Schneider                  | Mac Quadra 900 -
UFP Computers                   |
Chicago, IL                     |       "Dammit Jim! I'm a Mac, not an Amiga!"
Amiga and Toaster Consultant    |
New and Used Equipment Broker   |
From: branwen@cerebus.ccc.amdahl.com (Karen Williams)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: period firearms
Date: 8 Jan 93 21:50:28 GMT
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA


>>In <9212301802.AA04380@math.bu.edu> jeffs@math.bu.EDU (Jeff Suzuki) writes:

>>>One more factor: where are we going to get functional period firearms?
>>>I do not know of any company that manufactures them, although I'm sure
>>>they exist for the appropriate price.  If SCA smiths took to making
>>>them, they would have to worry about the legal implications of
>>>manufacturing a possibly dangerous product, etc.  

You can get kits to make your own wheellock pistols. We've got a couple
of people out here with working wheellocks.

Branwen ferch Emrys
The Mists, the West

--
                                          Karen Williams
                                          branwen@cerebus.ras.amdahl.com
"Don't whine. Warrior women speak in a husky whisper."
  -- Brat Pack #3
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: 880840m@axe.acadiau.ca (MICHAEL ALEXANDER MCKAY)
Subject: Re: Are you a Rialto Geek?
Summary: Send comments on the issue of same-sex consorts.
Organization: Acadia University
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 23:19:52 GMT

In article <105938@bu.edu> hjfeld@acs.bu.edu (harold feld) writes:

>Give yourself one point for every time you've seen the following
>thread:
>6) Same sex consorts

 Really? I would like hear a few things on this issue, but kindly refrain 
from posting it (I fear that a re-iteration of a recurring thread would 
be found annoying) - rather, e-mail your responses to me. Thank you.
                                 
                                   - Philandros Kalochromenos
                                     (880840m@axe.acadiau.ca)        
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: moore@mari.acc-admin.stolaf.edu (Michael Moore)
Subject: Royalty visiting groups
Organization: St. Olaf College; Northfield, MN  USA
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 20:20:02 GMT

On the subject of Royalty visiting groups of the Middle Kingdom:

I am a member of a small group (Baronial Colleges of Nordleigh, Canton of the
Barony of Nordskogen), in a far-off corner of the Middle Kingdom (not so far
as the Dakotas).  Royalty visits the Barony in Minneapolis/St. Paul about
once every six months/a year, with past lulls extending to two or more years
(so I'm told).  As a predominately college-based group, many members of
Nordleigh are unable to spend a weekend to travel the 6-hour trip to 
Madison or Milwaukee or Chicago for a Royal event.  This is not a problem
until we attempt to award one of our members with a well-deserved AoA.

If no royalty visit our area except during the summer, that person will
probably graduate before ever attending a royal court.  (I may be wrong, 
but IMHO, Kingdom level awards should be given out at a Royal court)

Luckily, recent royalty has seen fit to visit more often.  The trip is long
and arduous, but well worth it, at least for the people of this Barony and
Canton.

Lengthening reigns would probably mean that one set of royalty would need
to travel this long trip twice in a reign--an expensive task, even with the
"Bring the royalty to Nordskogen" fund.  Our reins of six months allow 
people to decide whether they wish to take this and many other long trips 
again.  If they do, they again become Royalty.

Thanks for reading this opinion.

In service to the servants of the Dream,
Peregrine Illuminator
From: Beth.Appleton@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: heraldry restrictions
Date: 6 Jan 93 19:38:08 GMT


 DA>  GCfM> Due to various constraints, all SCA names 
 DA> get registered  in the Roman
 DA>  GCfM> alphabet, right?  The problem with the 
 DA> heraldry is that our rules have
 DA>  GCfM> to create "the Roman alphabet" in order that 
 DA> the system hang together.

 DA> I don't find that an accurate description of what 
 DA> has been done.  More like the
 DA> CoA has taken the already extant English language 
 DA> and said "Thou shalt not use
 DA> aught but words of Latin roots".
 Lemme give this another shot.  Think of each blazon "word" as a 
 character in the Roman alphabet.  Each letter has a phonetic meaning 
 to us, right?  And each blazon word has a specific emblazon meaning. 
 I realize that I didn't specifically say that I meant a letter-to-
 word metaphor there.  Does that help?
     Gwenllian CfM

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: Godfrey de Shipbrook <jlee@smylex.UUCP>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: antipathy to fencing
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 18:26:26 EST
Organization: Shipbrook Software  (Tampa, FL)

Greetings from Godfrey!

Aryk writes:
> In article <470-JNEWS-2.1@smylex.UUCP> Godfrey de Shipbrook <jlee@smylex.UUCP> writes:
> 
>>but the style in which
>>we fence more closely resembles the period rapier combat than modern
>>collegiate/Olympic fencing.
> 
> And a horse more closely resembles a cow than does an iguana.  Yet to
> the educated eye, the horse and the cow are easily distinguished.

This is true.  However, I (for one) would not like to take a thrust
from a rapier of the same thickness (and, more importantly,
*stiffness*) as those rapiers actually used in period.  For one thing,
I'd probably end up dead, or minus the use of a limb, or at the very
least, a bad case of peritonitis.

The weapons we use are a concession to safety, just as the rattan swords
we use in heavy combat are.  Similarly, the masks we wear are a
concession to safety.

The *forms* in which we fence, however, are to what I refer.  Did the
period rapier combattant fence only back and forth in a straight line,
limited to one weapon, abiding by the rules of right-of-way?  Certainly
not!

As to the `educated eye', the styles in which I personally fence come
straight out of the period fencing manuals.  *Every* *thing* *I* *do*
when fencing can be justified as either a period practise, or as a
concession to safety as part of the Trimarian and/or East Kingdom
fencing rules.

I *do*, however, have a couple of beefs about the rules for scoring (a
diagonal cut across the sternum will hardly kill someone immediately,
for example), but I admit there must be *some* way of determining a
victor...


+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Net:  Jeff Lee / jlee@smylex.uucp / jlee%smylex.uucp@tscs.tscs.com     |
| SCA:  Lord Godfrey de Shipbrook / Wyvernwood, Trimaris                 |
|       Per pale azure and argent, a clarion counterchanged or and gules |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
    "The only thing that helps me maintain my slender grip on reality
    is the friendship I share with my collection of singing potatoes."
From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: William's mention of authentic equipment
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1993 18:24:22

>                                        A pine tree and a period
>rosin receipe, and a period pine tar extraction technique.

 TP> I did that to make finishes, and for the heck of 
 TP> it.   Go to the woods.
 TP> Take a nice day hike, collect resin lumps.  Make 
 TP> rosin from it.   Making
 TP> pine tar is real fun.  If you want, I'll post my recipie for that.
     Yes, please!
           Gwenllian Cwmystwyth

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: doconnor@sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Estrella
Date: 12 Jan 93 22:11:11
Organization: Intel i960(tm) Architecture
Distribution: rec
NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.intel.com
In-reply-to: gleason@scf16.scf.loral.com's message of Fri, 8 Jan 1993 19:35:13 GMT


gleason@scf16.scf.loral.com (Robert Gleason) writes:
] I am in need of information about Estrella next month. Our
] newsletter has very little info about it.  I've never been
] there and I have no idea of what to expect. I could at least 
] use dates and directions to Goodyear.

Estrella ( Eh-stray-uh ) War IX runs Feb 10-15.

The following is from the January 1993 Southwind, without permission:

Site Fees depend on arival date:

	Wednesday Feb 10   $25
	Thursday  Feb 11   $20
	Friday    Feb 12   $15
	Saturday  Feb 13   $15
	Sunday    Feb 14   $10
	
Additionally, non-members of the Society must pay $5 extra.

DIRECTIONS:

	Take the Estrella Parkway exit ( Exit 126 ) of I-10,
	which exit is 16.5 miles west of the intersection of
	I10 and I17 in Phoenix, AZ. Go south 5 miles. Immediately
	after crossing the Gila (He-la) River bridge, turn left at
	the sign for Estrella Mountain Park.

Personal Notes:
	
	(Target) Archery counts for a War Point

	Arts & Sciences count for a War Point
		Categories are Brewing, Field Dress and
			       Needlework with a Heraldic Theme

	Combat Archery (golf-tube arrows only) will be
		allowed in four of the battles.

Victory to Their Majesties Trelon and Varia ! Victory to Glorious Atenveldt !
--
Dennis O'Connor			doconnor@sedona.intel.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: Guy Wells <guyw@uswest.com>
Subject: Happenings in the Mists
Originator: guyw@babbage
Organization: U S WEST Advanced Technologies
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 16:38:21 GMT

The funny thing about this job is the requirement to travel everywhere.

Anyhow, I have just learned that I will be lucky enough to spend time in
what I believe is the Province of the Southern Shores (San Jose,
Calif.). I will be there from the 10th to the 13th of January (one week
from now). 

Will any fighter practices happen during these days, I guess anywhere in
the Principality of the Mists, or San Jose specifically? I always love
to freak out the airline travel desks by checking my armor, ad nauseum.

Any information would be helpful. I can be reached at guy@uswest.com, if
you're on the Internet.

BTW, having the opportunity to meet and face gentles throughout the
known world has been a pleasure. Last month was Ansteorra, this month,
hopefully, the West!

Jalut
-- 
--
Guy M. Wells <guyw@uswest.com>  Disclaimer: My opinions are mine, no
U S WEST Advanced Technologies  one elses, and certainly not USWEST's!
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: jeffs@math.bu.EDU (Jeff Suzuki)
Subject: hereditary kingship
Organization: The Internet
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 19:55:49 GMT


>Does anyone have GOOD documentation for houw the hereditary
>right of succession developed?
>
>Vajk

To throw in my 0.25 bytes, it depends on what you mean by hereditary.
The Roman Caesars, for a longish time, "adopted" their successors (if
they didn't have suitable sons to lead), so in some sense the Imperium
was a hereditary monarchy.  (Sometimes, it was in every sense
hereditary)  

Of course, primogeniture is a Roman tradition; it certainly influenced
the hereditary right of succession (though in some areas, like France,
it took a few centuries to get adopted).  

More musings: technically, the Holy Roman Emperor (hereafter the HRE)
was elected, but after around 1248, the Emperor usually a Habsburg,
because "Those Habsburgs, they're not strong enough to threaten our
autonomy".  After that, it became traditional and the election of the
HRE was pretty much a rubber stamp process, and for the Electors, it
_worked_: generally, the HRE wasn't strong enough to threaten their
autonomy.  

When the French nobility decided they wanted a King, they elected Hugh
Capet, with his Ile de France, because "Those Capetians, they're not
strong enough to threaten our autonomy".  With the French nobility, it
worked as well; read some of the escapades of the Normans at the
Capetian court.  

Somewhere between Charlemagne and Hugh Capet there was a change of
attitude from Salic Law to Roman Law; my Western Civ teacher thought
that it was the result of the "obvious" flaws of Salic Law: not only
did it cause the fragmentation of the Carolingian Empire, but it led
to war after war after war, with each noble trying to extend his
territory just a wee bit (part of the reason for electing a King was
to put an end to all this warfare).  

Comments, criticisms, continuations?

Tio dell'abaco
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: shick@europa.eng.gtefsd.com (steve hick)
Subject: Re: antipathy to fencing
Reply-To: shick@europa.eng.gtefsd.com (steve hick)
Organization: GTE Contel Federal Systems
X-Newsreader: InterCon TCP/Connect II 1.1b31
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 10:57:37 GMT

In article <1993Jan8.231044.7601@progress.com>, schuldy@progress.COM (Mark 
Schuldenfrei) writes:

> In many ways, SCA fence as I've experienced it, is closer to a 
> period model than SCA fighting.  This may be that, being so late 
> period, we do have many good manuscripts and illustrations that 
> we can imitate.  It certainly appears that literate means were not used 
> to teach swordplay in period, or that none of the European 
> written works survive. 


False, false, false.  There exists almost 100 manuals of fencing prior to 
1500 in manuscript-THAT WE KNOW OF, with more being discovered all the time.  
There are some 60 or so of GERMAN style alone.  There are 100 or so manuals 
of Italian fening PRINTED between 1500 and 1600.  

There are only 2 prior to 1400, but this may be a problem of conservation and 
NOT proof of their non-existence.  These are the Tower Fechtbuch, formerly in 
the royal collection in Dresden, dated ca 1300, which covers buckler -
fencing, and Liechtenaurs (actaully Danko's) manual of 1389 in the German 
National Museum in Nurnberg.

> 
> You know more about fighting, and period weapon's use than I, 

be true that medieval 
> swordwork has no modern sport analogue.  B
ut as practiced, it's 
> hardly a "more period" expression of sport than 
SCA Rapier comb
a
t, in 
> my opinion. 

SCA Rapier fencing is FINE, and I support it.  But i
t is not very close at all to what was done in period.  I have seen very 
few 4 1/2 foot rapiers weighing 3 lbs with tennis b
a
Bibliographies on request.

Strykar




Newsgroups: rec.org.sca