From: flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: : Homosexuality in Islam
Date: 16 Dec 1992 08:54:12 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Control and Systems, Teknikum, Uppsala
Distribution: world
Reply-To: flax@mizar.docs.uu.se
NNTP-Posting-Host: frej.teknikum.uu.se

In article <nabeel.724444611@oracle.sce.carleton.ca>, nabeel@sce.carleton.ca (Rosignolo) writes:
|> In <1992Dec14.123633@frej.teknikum.uu.se> flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare) writes:
|> 
|> " In article <nabeel.724288533@oracle.sce.carleton.ca>, nabeel@sce.carleton.ca (Rosignolo) writes:
|> 
|> " I can see it now.. You die. You come to the gates of Heaven, only to find out
|> " that God is a Big Black Lesbian, with an attitude.. :-)
|> 
|>     Probably your god whatever it is may look this way or that, do not make a
|> a generalisation to other people's gods.

Hah! That's a good one. Tell me, how much of a 'generalization' is Big, Black, Lesbian?
Really!?

|> " Why is it that so many religious people take upon themselves to carry out
|> " the 'will' of God? Yes, I have a firm belief, but I hesitate to call myself
|> 
|>    Koran addresses us: O ye believers, cut the thief, flog the drinker, etc.
|> We do not take upon ourselves, we are required to do so by the religion and if
|> we do not then we share the crime. Regarding your belief, it shows below that
|> it is too firm, have mercy to yourself, you are not required to be an angel :->

By firm belief, I mean that I cannot find within me to _not_ believe in a God. 
I did not say I am a religious person.

|> " christian. I embrace most of the traditional christian values, (it's wrong
|> " to steal, etc. etc.) but I do believe that any punishment thieves get is
|> " mainly to protect society. To lean on 'divine will' when meting out punish-
|> " ment.. well hybris is _one_ word that comes to mind..
|> 
|>    See above. After the Bible spoiled you, we can not do you much.

Pardon me, but where did I mention going by the Bible when talking about
value-set?  As I said: If you can't find it within you, no book in the world 
is going to help you.

|> " I think that religion can be a support to the individual in times of crisis,
|> " but when you let your whole life be _determined_ by some claimed divine will,
|> " you are treading dangerous ground. If I cannot bear to take responsibility 
|> " for my _own_ actions, then how will I ever be able to face my Creator (if 
|> " there is one) when I die? I will _not_ look up my actions in a _book_ even
|> " if people _claim_ it was written by God himself. I must determine in my own 
|> " heart if I do right.
|> 
|>    This berays high logical and scientific ignorance. If there is no reference
|> to judge things to, then everyone will have their own moral codes, what you
|> think is wrong someone else will think it is right and people may think that
|> they are doing humanity a favour by killing the physically ugly, old, and less
|> firm believers than you.

I did not say that we should _not_ have codes to judge by. I did say that I believe
in a separation of the divine and worldy judgement though. But, when it comes to
divine judgement of my actions, that is a matter between me and my God, not between
me and a Book. I might read the book to ponder it's value in guiding me. But when
I start referring to that same book to judge others, _I_ think I'd be guilty of
assuming the role of God. You might feel big enough to wear that role. I don't.

|> " Sorry for the emotional outburst.. I tend to get that way when people say
|> 
|>    Well, we can work with that. But feel sorry for yourself that when you
|> experience this you start babbling incoherently. However, be my guest.
|> 
|> " things like 'We should kill all X so they can recieve the judgement of God'

|>    No we do not do this. We kill someone (or flog/stone/etc) because it is
|> their punishment in life and to let other potential criminals think twice
|> before doing it. God will judge them sooner or later, it makes no difference
|> to Him.

But if you kill an innocent, what does that make _you_ guilty of?

|> " Yes! Help all weak and old people on their way! It's a crime to be ugly!
|> " Outlaw beards! Decapitate anyone with pimples! Jihad! AIIIIGH!
|> 
|>    If you keep this closed minded bigoted attitude you won't be able to 
|> appreciate what religions are all about, probably Judaism thinks that the ugly
|> and some kinds of people are unclean. We do not. God does not give you credit
|> for what He gave you, just for what you do (about it.)

Please rephrase that last paragraph, it makes almost no sense.
I'd appreciate if you told me what Judaism have to do with what I said?

|>    Jihad is self defense and in somehow similar to what Bush claims to do when
|> he sends the military east and west. This is to get it closer to your mind.

Jihad is Holy War. Right? Isn't it possible to proclaim Jihad on something that
mispleases your God? Self defense? Give me a break..

--------------------------------------------------------
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