From: anon-1218@twwells.com (Anika)
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: Re: response to ed
Date: 19 Nov 92 18:58:11 GMT
Organization: Anonymous Posting Service at twwells.com
X-Email-Accepted: yes






19-Nov-92 00:39	erc@unislc.uucp (Ed Carp)	Re: response to ed  writes:



>I have used names in examples before.

		Yes, and you've hurt people before. Does that make it OK?

>That's your opinion, that's what you got out of it.  You obviously ignored
>the message behind the posting and got caught up in "emotional content" and
>"intent of poster".  Why can't you just accept a post at face value and stop
>getting caught up in your emotional issues behind what you think the poster
>meant?

		Ed, we are *here* because of emotional issues. If someone
		says, "Anika, you're an idiot," and believes they are stating
		a fact without intent to harm, they would believe my pain was
		unjustified. But these *are* emotional issues. We are *here*
		in order to deal with our emotions. If you insist that I
		cannot express my emotions ("What you wrote hurt me.") - 
		you ask me to be a rock. I will not ignore or invalidate my
		emotions because you refuse to acknowledge that what you
		write or how you write it can hurt regardless of your intent.
		I will not accept blame for *feeling* and I will not stop
		feeling to make your life easier.
	
>I don't feel any obligation to you or anyone else to publicly apologize for
>a post which causes soneone else personal stress or embarassment.  Of course,

		Ed, you don't listen. I did not ask you to apologize for your
		posts. I asked that you acknowledge they caused pain and
		apologize for that. It is not impossible to apologize for the
		results of your posts without apologizing for their content.
		I can say to someone, "I'm sorry we had that awful fight. I
		believe I was justified in being angry, but the fight was
		something to be sorry about." Why is that such a difficult 
		concept for you to understand? Why do you insist on
		laying blame ("It's your fault you took what I said wrong.")?

>you are making the assumption that my apologies weren't tendered in email to
>the person or persons concerned.  In fact, I *did* apologize in email to
>Teresa - but that's none of anyone else's business.  She chose to ignore my

		On the contrary. These posts have been public. Any one with
		access can read them. This disagreement and its consequences
		are everybody's business, because you made it so.
		Further, many people on this board have said they have been
		hurt by your posts. Seeing that you acknowledge that would
		assure them they don't need to expect more pain from your
		posts. 
		Finally, my personal opinion is that flaming in public and
		apologizing in private is pretty cowardly. (Just my opinion,
		of course.)

>private email and continue to flame me - that's her business.  In any case, it
>is *not* your affair, and I resent your attempt to manipulate me into making
>some sort of public statement about the whole thing.

		Ed, this *post* was your public statement. You are *making*
		public statements. It *IS* my affair because you continue to
		make these posts public.

>What business is it of yours, or anyone else's, what settlement Teresa and I
>come to in private email?

		Because,
		1.) If you and Teresa reached any agreement, it must have been
		a poor one if you still flame her like this.
		2.) By posting this publicly, you have brought the issue into
		a wider community - A community you rely on when it supports
		you, and disparage when it doesn't.
		3.) Teresa is not the only one who has complained.
		4.) You are repeatedly refusing to grant *any* validity to or
		place any value in the emotions of the people on this board.
		Our emotions are real. If they are unjustified, that doesn't
		make them less real. The fact that you continually *blame* us
		for feeling indicates that not only do you disparage
		*emotions*, but also the people who feel them.

>Why do you need for me to make some sort of public apology?  Like I said
>before, my policy is, if I offend someone, they have the right to say,
>"I was offended", and I have the right to respond in PRIVATE email.

		Yes: offend someone publicly. Belittle them, make them feel
		small. Apologize privately where no one can see you, and
		leave the one you offended with the shreds of his dignity.
		That's nice. You make a public accusation/insult, you should
		apologize publicly (if you apologize). Or else you do not make
		reparation for the damage you've done to that person, their 
		public image and/or their credibility.

>Oh, and as to your accusation that I called "us all illiterate dipshits",
>that wasn't one of my posts.  I said something completely different.  I
>think you have me confused with someone else.

		No, Ed. I don't think so. 

>Anika, I think it's time you realized that I will never conduct my life the
>way you want me to - and I will never expect you to conduct your life the
>way IO would want you to.  Why keep trying to make me behave according to
>your standards of conduct?

		Ed, I have the right to ask, and make certain you understand
		what I have asked. This is what I have done in my last post
		and this one. I am not asking you to compromise any essential
		part of your character. I am not asking you to deny that what
		you wrote or meant or felt. I am asking you to acknowledge
		that my emotions, and Teresa's, and those of the rest who have
		spoken up, are real, and we don't deserve to be *blamed* for
		them. You are not responsible for changing our emotions toward
		you and your posts. I am not asking you to shoulder our
		emotions. I am asking you to *see* them and admit they are
		real. Ideally, I would like you to be sorry you were the
		source of so much pain, even if you are not sorry for *why*
		you were that source. At least it would acknowledge the effect
		these emotions have on us. However, it appears that it is
		easier for you to continually inflict pain, than to acknowledge
		that that pain is real.

>: >It certainly isn't mentioned in the FAQ.  And, yes, I believe I *did* mention
>: >my own sexual abuse history, because I clearly remembered mentioning the "ex-
>: >pulling the gun" incident to you.
>: 
>: 	Actually, it *is* mentioned in the FAQ, but that's neither here nor
>: 	there. This group has often welcomed survivors of other forms of
>: 	abuse, though generally they ask if it's alright first.
>
>Oh, I see.  If I'm right, "that's neither nere nor there", but if I'm wrong,
>well, let's flame away...

		Ed, this borders on the ridiculous. You were *wrong*. It is
		mentioned in the FAQ that this is a board for survivors of
		SEXUAL abuse. I meant it's neither here nor there, because you
		have posted a story which indicates that you are an adult
		survivor of sexual abuse, so the question of whether you
		"belong" here or not is moot and as it wasn't an argument *I*
		posed, I felt no point in commenting further. I have
		publicly apologized for not understanding your abuse issues.

>I *have* expressed my intent.  You have ignored those posts, it seems,
>preferring instead to flame.

		Ed, I'm not flaming. Not yet. I'm getting close, but at this
		point, I'm still rationally discussing these issues. 
		I understand that your intent is to help others, yet how
		these disagreements and misunderstandings, and the pain you've
		caused constitute "help" is simply beyond me. It seems that
		helping someone requires compassion 

		[com-pas-sion n. sympathy, sorrow for the suffering or
		trouble of another or others]

		which is something you patently do not express in your posts
		or follow-ups.
		I asked if you intended to start flame wars in order to gain
		support. I was not trying to manipulate you, as you accused.
		I was asking a question which you have failed to answer, which
		seems odd since "No" is so easy to say.

								Anika

		








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