From: barrett@cc.gatech.edu (James Barrett)
Subject: BUSH: Larry King Live text 10/4
Reply-To: barrett@cc.gatech.edu (James Barrett)
Organization: Georgia Tech College of Computing
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 19:55:41 GMT

 
        Text of Larry King Interview With George Bush

    LARRY KING: Good evening, and welcome to a special Sunday
 night edition of Larry King Live. We're broadcasting from a
 very special place that not many Americans get to see or
 even visit via television. We are in the East Sitting Hall
 of the White House residence, upstairs in the first family's
 private quarters, right next door to the Lincoln Bedroom.
 Indeed, the shot behind the president's back is the Lincoln
 Bedroom.
    And we've been invited by the current occupants to spend 
 the next hour with them. And it's our great pleasure to be
 here and to welcome to Larry King Live President George
 Bush.
    I will say that it was--the last time you were here was
 as vice president, so it's nice to see you here as
 president. And thank you very much for joining us.
    BUSH: I'm delighted to be here, Larry. Thank
 you for coming over.
    KING: Let's cover some things current, touch a lot of
 bases. 
    BUSH: All right.
    KING: Vetoing the cable bill. Why?
    BUSH: Very candidly, Larry, I believe that the
 bill as written will increase costs to the consumer. I know
 that people arguing the other side of the bill, who are for
 the bill, say that they think the bill will guard against
 that. But I think the bill itself will increase cost to the
 consumers. It it's not popular, but I--you know, in this
 job, you have to call them as you see them. You have to make 
 a tough call.
    KING: Do you think this might be the first time you get
 overridden?
    BUSH: I don't know, but I think more important
 than that is that you have to, in this job--you can't be on
 all sides of it. You've got to say what you believe. And I
 believe that this would increase costs to the consumers. We
 are trying to do less in the way of regulation and not more-
 -not just for cable or broadcast but for other industries
 and businesses. We're regulating too much on 
 small business.
    And so I feel comfortable with the philosophical position
 here and the position on the specific issues.
    KING: When you sign or don't sign--
    BUSH: I don't know whether it's going to be
 ever written or not. We're still working.
    KING: When you think about it, when you do veto a bill,
 as you say "no," do you think how's it going to go when they
 throw it back to the Senate and House? In other words, does
 that occur? 
    BUSH: I think you have to give some thought to
 it. And sometimes you work to make a bill acceptable or you
 work to get it changed. Obviously you try to get things
 done. But in the final analysis, you can't hedge your bets
 all the time. You've got to say, "Here's what I'm going to
 do."
    And we have been successful in upholding vetoes.
    KING: All of them, right?
    BUSH: All of them, thirty-some. But we're 
 working on this one. I had some people here for breakfast
 today, and it's a tough call for those I'm talking to. But I
 happen to believe I'm right on it. And if you think you're
 right, in this job, you've got to do what you said you're
 going to do.
    KING: It cannot be enjoyable, I would imagine, Mr.
 President, to veto, to be known as a veto president, which
 only shows stagnation and conflict.
    BUSH: Well--
    KING: It must be an unhappy thing. 
    BUSH: No, it isn't really, Larry. I was elected
 to do certain things, and you've got a congress that often
 comes down on opposite sides of issues from me. And the only
 check that the American people have, the only balance that
 they have is for the president to stand up against a
 congress that always spends too much and taxes too much. And
 it isn't pleasant, and I'd rather work it out and move
 things forward.
    I don't like gridlock. But there will not be gridlock in 
 my 2d term--and I'm speaking optimistically here--because
 you're going to have a lot of new members of Congress,
 Democrats and Republican, and they're going to be listening
 to the voters as I have. And I'm going to be asking for a
 mandate on certain issues we can discuss tonight or some
 other time with you, and that's how we're going to move
 things forward.
    Also, I won't be running again, so there wouldn't be any
 politics at all over the horizon. Let's get the job done for
 the American people. 
    KING: We're back at the White House, Special Edition of 
 Larry King Live with President George Bush. We're going to
 touch a lot of bases. And then sometime within the next 4
 weeks, the president will be returning to our studios so
 that we can follow the normal format of taking phone calls
 for the candidates as they appear.
    Why do you like this? Do you like campaigning?
    BUSH: I like parts of it. I must say this has
 been kind of an ugly year. Most people, political observers 
 and people in this maelstrom, think it's probably the worst
 year we've ever seen.
    And you know something? It's isn't just the US? There's
 kind of an ugliness in political process abroad. You notice
 Helmut Kohl getting slugged the other day, and there's all
 kind of emotions and ugliness.
    KING: How do you account for it?
    BUSH: I don't know. I'm not sure I can account
 for it. We've had these dramatic changes in the world, of
 which I'm proud to have been a part, some of them. And 
 there's no common enemy, you might say, as we had the Soviet
 Union for years, and now it's democratic and we're working
 with them.
    There's been a very slow, internationally slow, economic
 situation. Most people think we're in a deep recession, and
 there's genuine concern about people having jobs today might
 not them tomorrow. And yet there's been anemic growth for
 the last 5 quarters. And I don't know what it is, but--
    KING: But what happened to the whole shooting match, in a
 sense? I mean, you--the gulf war, the victory you pulled 
 off, Mideast peace talks, new administration in Israel--
 they're willing to be concessions, historic international
 things, and a nation divided. How do you explain it to
 yourself?
    BUSH: Well, I think that the campaign itself
 has something to do with that. For 11 months, you had a
 Democratic primary and most of it was criticizing the
 president. Most of them recognized that they could not get
 elected unless people felt things were really bad and wanted
 a change on the economic side. The debate on that side was 
 never in depth on foreign affairs or on lowering the threat
 of nuclear war to the children in this country that did take
 place. The things you clicked off--ancient enemies talking
 to each other in the Middle East, for heaven's sakes--nobody
 would have dreamed it possible. Germany unified, democracy
 rampant south of our borders--I mean, that was never in the
 debate.
    The debate on the Democratic side every single night and
 on program after program related to how bad things were and
 what they were going to do to try to straighten it out. 
    KING: But they can't make you feel bad if it's not bad,
 can they, Mr. President? I mean, if I feel good, you can't
 make me feel bad.
    BUSH: Well, when 92 % of the news coverage,
 Larry, on this--what is the man, Lichter's, surveys have
 been negative on the economy, how else do people get the
 news? You get it from news programs or you get it from
 print. And yes, things have been tough, but they haven't
 been that tough. There's been some encouraging things. I can 
 click them off for you: interest rates down, inflation down,
 businesses ready, poised for recovery.
    All I'm saying is it's been predominantly negative
 because the political process and the reporting thereof has
 dwelled on the negative.
    KING: Do you think you're getting a bad rap?
    BUSH: I don't think I'm getting a particularly
 good one. Let me ask you this, Larry. When you see programs
 dedicating the whole subject to have we been fair, they
 wouldn't be having that if there wasn't some doubt about it. 
    But I learned long ago, don't complain about it, just get
 your--one thing about the campaign, these final stages, the
 debates, you can take your case to the American people. I
 have not been happy with the press, but that's not--I'm not
 going to dwell on that.
    KING: But you also--wasn't it true that you--did you miss
 the recession? Did it come late? Are you insulated here and
 didn't see it?
    BUSH: Well, that's a charge that maybe I was 
 being too technical, but I'm telling you--what is a
 recession? How do we define it?
    KING: When the other guy's out of work, it's a recession.
 It's a depression if I'm out of work.
    BUSH: Exactly. The national definition of a
 recession, I believe, is 2 consecutive quarters of negative
 growth. Now, your listeners may have trouble believing this.
 We have had 5 quarters of positive growth in a row.
    So when I said there isn't a recession last fall,
 technically I was right. But I should have done it 
 recognizing that there's a hell of a lot of people hurting,
 and I feel it and I knew it then and I know it now. But I
 think some of that's what the opposition honed in on. They
 said the president is out of touch. He says we're not in a
 recession.
    Technically, I was right, but don't tell that to the guy
 that's unemployed, or don't tell it to the family that has a
 job and wonders if they're going to have it tomorrow. So I
 could have handled that better.
    KING: This caring--how did that get--you know, it's very 
 hard to find anyone on Capitol Hill who doesn't like George
 Bush. Enemies of yours, political opponents, people will
 say--I mean, it's rare to hear anyone say I don't like Bush.
    What happened between the I don't like to he doesn't
 care?
    BUSH: I don't know and it troubles me because I
 very much care. And I believe I am totally in touch, and I
 think the programs that I have tried to get through would
 have helped families--would have, and I use that tense--
 would have helped families if I could have been more 
 persuasive with the Congress or if the Congress has not made
 a decision, the way we are going to win the White House is
 to block presidential initiatives.
    So we've been in a head-on-head fight.
    When I first came in here, we got things done. We got a
 great child care bill, we got the best environmental
 legislation you've ever seen, that Clean Air Act, we did 2
 civil rights pieces of legislation, including the historic
 Americans for Disability Act (sic) that says to every
 disabled person, look, we're going to give you a shot at the 
 American dream.
    We got things done. But as we get closer to this
 election, the opposition says put the brakes on what he
 wants to do, try to do it our way.
    KING: How did the butt happen to you? The butt didn't
 happen to Reagan.
    BUSH: The which?
    KING: The butt. In other words, he--
    BUSH: Well, I think the economy--I think the
 economy in our last years in the Reagan administration was 
 booming along. It was growing in the last--I think when I
 was running for president, I think closer to 4 or 5 %. We
 were creating half a million jobs a month.
    We created more jobs--we did in the Reagan/Bush
 administration than all of Europe and Japan combined. And so
 we had economic growth. People were starting business. And
 now we're caught up in an economic slow down that is world
 wide. And each of those economies would trade with us in a
 minute.
    KING: In baseball, you know because your son had to do 
 it, they fire the manager even though it may not be his
 fault. Are you afraid that that's what's happening here,
 they're saying--
    BUSH: No. I'm not going to be fired.
    KING: You're not going to be fired?
    BUSH: I'm confident I'm going to be retained
 because I think the record is good.
    You see, you're giving me a chance to say the positive
 things about the record. Not just for world peace, but what
 I'd like to see happen in-- 
    KING: That's what this show's about.
    BUSH: Exactly--domestically. You know, you ask
 the question are you better off?
    Well, is a home owner better off that can refinance his
 home/her home at interest rates substantially lower than
 they were? Is a senior citizen better off or worse off
 today? I'd say better off because inflation that robs the
 person of those savings is in the box. We've got them
 contained. 
    Businesses to some degree are better off because they've
 had to work through a tough economic time and they've shaken
 out the fat, and their poised for a fine recovery.
    KING: So why this mood?
    BUSH: Well, I think I've tried to explain it to
 you. How many good news reports have you had on the show?
 Not too many, most of them are talking about the negative
 sides of things. And there's plenty to be negative about.
    All I'm saying is, it's not all that negative and 
 secondly, I've got programs and an agenda here--now I have a
 chance to hold up my agenda for America--
    KING: That's in this year.
    BUSH: It is. It's a best selling item, because
 it really is good and what is says is we are going to have.
 If we do it right and do what's in here, we can have a $10
 trillion economy shortly after the year 2000.
    KING: We have a lot of bases to touch. We'll be back with
 President Bush in the White House on Larry King Live,
 Special Sunday Night Edition. Don't go away. 
    KING: Were you bothered today that the Seattle Times and
 the Detroit Free Press endorsed your opponent? Do you think
 that matters?
    BUSH: I haven't seen it.
    KING: No? It said "lack of leadership." Do you get mad at
 that?
    BUSH: I was very pleased that the Columbus
 paper endorsed me.
    KING: Do you get mad when they talk about leadership? 
    BUSH: No. I get determined to have the American
 people--I think the American people understand I've been a
 strong leader. I mean, you remember Desert Storm? If you
 listen to the debate, it would be like it never existed. But
 I think people know that there were some very tough calls.
 Leadership involved bringing along public opinion--making a
 tough decision, not waffling, not on one side of it one day,
 one the other day, and making the tough call. So I think I
 get credit for that. 
    But I'm sorry I can't be persuaded by one or 2
 endorsements going one way or another.
    KING: I want to give you a chance to respond because
 Senator Gore and William Safire are getting into what they
 call--I guess we're calling Iraqgate.
    BUSH: Yes.
    KING: That you had knowledge of sales of stuff to
 Hussein. And I'd like to give you a chance to comment
 because Senator Gore raised it the other day. I think that 
 was the first in the campaign to raise it. Mr. Safire has
 been raising it in his column.
    BUSH: Well, I'll be glad to answer any specific
 questions. But--
    KING: From what's been reported, did you have any
 knowledge of this going on?
    BUSH: Of what going on?
    KING: Sales of stuff to Iraq.
    BUSH: Against our policy?
    KING: Right. 
    BUSH: No. But what I had knowledge of is that
 we were trying to work with Saddam Huseein and try to bring
 him along into the family of nations. And that failed. But
 I'm glad we tried to do it.
    And in terms of trying to make some kind of a scandal out
 of it--
    KING: Loans? Did we give him loans?
    BUSH: Yeah. Do you know who wanted to make
 loans, grain credit loans, and got ahold of Mr. Hamdoun, the 
 Iraq ambassador, on grain credits? Governor Clinton. I mean,
 of course--
    KING: Governor Clinton wanted to arrange loans to--
    BUSH: I believe that's the case. Ask him
 tomorrow.
    KING: I will.
    BUSH: I think he met with him and wanted-- you
 know, was pleased that the US agricultural loans--we were
 making agricultural loans. We were trying to bring the guy
 along. 
    What happened was, they had an illegal diversion of
 materials that would have helped them build a nuclear
 capability, a capability that we have substantially wiped
 out in the war.
    But to allege that we were building up his arms or
 building up his nuclear power knowingly is simply
 fallacious. And that has been looked into, Larry, by
 committee after committee--millions of dollars spent on it,
 charge after charge. And I don't know what why these people 
 are so excited. But, again, when you hear Senator Gore out
 there on this, they're trying to chip away at an outstanding
 record on foreign policy where we've changed the world, for
 heaven's sakes, dramatically changed it for the better.
    KING: So on Iraq, certainly, you're saying President Bush
 has nothing to apologize for, feel sorry for.
    BUSH: That's what I'm saying, yeah.
    KING: Well, yeah, that nothing--
    BUSH: I'll tell you what I feel sorry about is
 that the guy didn't come along and that the guy--that the 
 policy of trying to make something peaceful and try to get
 him in to be less of an irritant and less of a disaster in
 that part of the world failed.
    And then--policy had screeched to a halt before this--
  but when he moved into Kuwait, there was no question about
 what we had to do. And many of critics, some of whom are now
 talking about why didn't you go into Baghdad, instant Hawks
 were found wanting. They weren't demonstrating with some of
 their friends in front of this building, but they were found
 wanting. And so were many in the media who said I hadn't 
 made the case to the American people.
    KING: We'll be back with President George Bush. This is 
 Larry King Live. We're at the White House--pre-taped earlier
 this evening. The president will be returning one night
 within the next 4 weeks--we'll let you know when--to our
 studios to take phone calls. We'll be right back.
    KING: Welcome back to Larry King Live. Touching lots of
 bases with President George Bush, 4 week away from the
 election on this Sunday night.
    What do you make of Magic Johnson leaving the AIDS 
 Commission?
    BUSH: I was disappointed. I told Magic when he
 came on the commission that he was welcome and I'd welcome
 ideas from him. I guess he--I never heard from him after
 that. And off he goes.
    KING: He said the commission made recommendation and the
 administration didn't follow through.
    BUSH: Well, let me tell you, I think we've got
 a very good record on AIDS. First place, we've got the
 greatest, most compassionate researchers in the world out at 
 NIH. They're just marvelous. Dr Broder, Dr Tony Fauchi,
 who's just fantastic.
    KING: We just had him on.
    BUSH: Did you?
    KING: Yeah. A great guy.
    BUSH: Oh, the dedication of these people and
 the love and compassion they show to those afflicted by the
 disease. But maybe he told you. Under us, I've asked for
 $4.9 billion. Last year it was $4.2. Spending is more than
 doubled for AIDS under us. We're spending ten times as much 
 for AIDS victims as for cancer victims. We are really going
 to bat on the research side of the equation. And you know,
 it's hard to really express how you do care about it and I
 think we need more compassion, we need more understanding. I
 take my leadership from the AIDS doctors and people like
 these researchers because behavior has to change. You have
 to stop doing things that were known to cause the disease.
    It's one disease where some of it is caused by behavior
 and that's got to stop.
    KING: Are you against distribution of condoms in schools? 
    BUSH: Yeah. I don't think that helps.
    KING: If Magic had called here you would have taken the
 call?
    BUSH: Well, I asked him to come and talk about
 it. And he--I think he attended but one of the meetings of
 the commission. But Larry, I don't know the answer to that
 one. I've replaced him with a very loving person, Ms Fisher,
 Mary Fisher who just mesmerized the Republican Convention.
 And speaking for many when she talked about caring and 
 compassion. And so I think she'll be very faithful in
 attendance there. But some of these commissions, you can't
 do everything they want. And I don't even know what the
 differences are in this one.
    I've met with the commission. I've met with AIDS
 patients. I've been out to NIH. We've increased the
 spending. We're trying very, very hard.
    KING: We're hopscotching. General Schwarzkopf on this
 program said that he's a gun owner and he favors hunting and
 the like, but he was in favor of Brady and that there was no 
 logical reason to him why anybody would want to wait--should
 be against waiting 7 days to get a gun.
    BUSH: I favor that instant identification plan
 so that you can eliminate the criminals to start with. And
 Dole and Mitchell have a bill on that that is far better
 than the Brady plan, and one that I support.
    KING: What's wrong with the Brady bill?
    BUSH: Well, I've indicated that we'd be willing
 to talk compromise on that, but what's wrong is they are
 trying to send me one specific piece of legislation, and I 
 am trying to back up our law enforcement officers by strong
 law enforcement, anti-crime legislation that changes the
 habeas corpus, that amends--this is technical, but it amends
 the exclusionary rule so an honest cop makes an arrest, and
 if there's some technicality, you don't let some criminal go
 out. I'm wanting to tighten up the death penalty on people
 that do the most heinous of crimes.
    And I'll be glad to talk compromise. I've indicated that
 to Congress. But I'll be darned if I want to just take one
 thing they want and have them block everything I want. So 
 we've got that problem on it.
    But far better than Brady is what I've told you.
    KING: Baker, here now as chief of staff: does he go back
 to State if you're reelected?
    BUSH: He's big enough to do whatever he wants
 to do.
    KING: What are you going to ask him to do?
    BUSH: He's a close enough friend, and he's got
 such a superb record that I would--I don't know, I mean, I
 would think he'd want to go back there, and I'd want him 
 there.
    You know, Larry, you can't tell it from this campaign, we
 still have enormous problems in foreign relations. We've
 done dramatic things, and that's the case I want to take to
 the American people. But--
    KING: So if he wants to go back, you'd like him to go
 back to State?
    BUSH: Absolutely. He in a sense has made quite
 a sacrifice to come over and do this job that he's doing
 very, very well. 
    KING: Your budget director, OMB, they take hard hits.
 Your secretary of Treasury takes hard hits. Are they going
 to stay?
    BUSH: So does the president.
    KING: The president. Well, if--
    BUSH: I'm going to stick around.
    KING: All right. If the president sticks around, do they
 stick around?
    BUSH: Well, I think we're going to have 
 changes, but I haven't talked to them. And I don't know
 where the changes will be. I said down there in Texas there
 would be changes. I think I was--was it on CNN? Anyway, so
 what happened? The reporters run around, has the president
 told you you're through yet? Is the president going to fire
 you? I mean, this isn't what we need. And I'm not going to
 shift the blame. I don't believe in that.
    But of course there are going to be changes. I don't know
 what specific jobs there'll be changes in, but that's
 happened after every finishing of a first term. I guarantee 
 you we'll continue to have really good people.
    KING: And you'll get things through if you've got a
 Congress that changes enough. What if you don't? What if the
 Congress is like this Congress?
    BUSH: Still have a better chance. We--I got
 things through with this Congress, until the politics set
 in. I clicked off some of them. We--we really--
    KING: So you're saying--
    BUSH: --a lot of things.
    BUSH: --you're going to be effective even if 
 this Congress remained the same?
    BUSH: Well, I tell you what you got--there
 won't the same--you're going to have over 100 new members. I
 think maybe as many as 150. And each one of those new
 members are going to be listening to the same voters I'm
 listening to, the same people. And they're going to come in
 here without this kind of institutional mindset of the
 liberals that control the House of Representatives and the
 Senate. And so you're going to have a lot of changes. And
 also, normally, after an election the best time to move is 
 in that first hundred, first hundred and fifty days. Look at
 history. That's when things happen. Even if you don't
 control the Congress. So I'm optimistic about moving this
 program in detail through the new Congress.
    KING: We have gone all this time and haven't mentioned
 Ross Perot. And we'll do that right after this.
    KING: We're back with President Bush. Ross Perot is back.
 What do you make of it?
    BUSH: Welcome. The water's fine. Come on in.
 And he can be in the debates. He should be. 
    KING: Do you know Ross Perot a long time?
    BUSH: About--yes. About--I'm trying to think
 how many years. Seventeen, maybe 20 years.
    KING: He says, swears, nothing personal against you. He
 has disagreements on policy, nothing personal. Is that true?
    BUSH: He told you that?
    KING: Yeah. Last time. This week.
    BUSH: Well, I hope that's true; I hope it's
 true. 
    KING: Do you think it's not?
    BUSH: I have no reason to know one way or the
 other. I keep getting reports to the contrary. But it
 doesn't matter.
    KING: What about you towards him? Anything personal?
    BUSH: No, and that's--no, not at all. But
 that's irrelevant. We're talking about who should sit in the
 Oval Office, who has the stability, the leadership, the
 experience to be president of the US. So we're now down to 
 serious business. We're getting to something very serious at
 this point.
    KING: And in politics, this could happen: with a 3d man
 who has some strength, you could, let's say, win this with
 45 %. You get 45 % of the vote; Clinton could get 43 % of
 the vote; Perot could get 12 % of the vote. You're
 re-elected. Would that be okay to be elected with a minority
 vote?
    BUSH: Well, I don't know about "okay." You go
 by the rules are. What you want to have is as strong support 
 as possible. But when I'm elected, it is going to be because
 I have the better agenda for renewing America.
    KING: And the percentage of votes wouldn't make you feel-
 -
    BUSH: Well, it makes it much better if you have
 an enormous vote of confidence because then the Congress has
 to go much quicker.
    But, you see, it's my theory that in this most peculiar
 of years where you do have 3 candidates that you'll win
 because of your ideas, your past record and your ideas, and 
 then you'll get it through the Congress.
    KING: Are you sorry--
    BUSH: It's better--the more votes you got, the
 better, obviously.
    KING: Are you sorry you send those representatives to
 Dallas?
    BUSH: No, because I think it was--we've taken
 some flack on it--kow-towing and catering to this man and
 all of that. But they had a chance to explain. Perot was
 very fair to them and had a chance to explain our agenda, 
 why we think it's better, what we've accomplished
 domestically, what we've accomplished in world affairs. And
 so I think it was a good opportunity. But I don't whether
 his mind had been made up long before that or not.  He said
 it hadn't. I don't know.
    KING: Are you suspicious it had?
    BUSH: Well, I'll leave that to you, Larry.
 You're the Perot expert.
    KING: I don't know. I just ask questions.
    BUSH: I know. But you're the living oracle on 
 this man.
    KING: I don't know. I just ask him questions, like you.
    BUSH: Well, but you can judge. You're entitled
 to an opinion. You're pretty good about keeping it, I must
 say, as an interviewer And you give the interviewee a real
 fair chance to answer questions, which is very nice. But
 some day I want to again de-program you and you tell me what
 you think about that.
    KING: You'll host this program and ask me?
    BUSH: Yes. 
    KING: If--
    BUSH: That would be fun to do, as a matter of
 fact, on some of these guys--not you so much.
    KING: The debates.
    BUSH: Yeah.
    KING: Oh first, by the way, did you say, that's correct,
 you said I would do anything to win?
    BUSH: Yeah.
    KING: Does that mean break the rules? 
    BUSH: Absolutely not. I pride myself on the
 fact that I have had the cleanest administration and that we
 have--that I have always abided by the law and that my
 family and I have tried to uphold the highest trust put in
 my by the American people.
    So for someone to say I'll do what it takes to win, or
 anything it takes to win, for someone to allege, as the
 opponents mean that I'd cut some corner, that's the worst in
 politics. That's the kind of things that makes it--figure 
 sometime Larry, why put up with this. I've got a great
 family, why listen to this absurd suggestion that when I say
 that--What that means is I'm a competitor. And I'm not going
 to be out hustled by the governor from Arkansas. And I'm
 going to work harder and go the extra mile and tell the
 truth each step of the way. And that's what I mean by doing
 what it takes to win.
    KING: Does he have the debate edge, as you've said?
    BUSH: I think he's probably a better debtor.
 And I'm not down grading my past efforts. 
    KING: He said yesterday you're a pretty good debtor.
    BUSH: Well, I heard him say that, which I was
 flattered. But, you know he's got all these statistics. He's
 got all these statistics. Eighty-two % of the people did
 that, 39--I'm not as good on that.
    I'm good on principle. And it will be a good debate. But
 I think that if you were having--you know, these debates you
 always have a debate coach out here saying who won. He may
 win on points, but I hope I win on bringing ideals across. 
    KING: Do you have a debate coach?
    BUSH: No. I don't have a lot of guys-- handlers
 out there.
    KING: What do they do?
    BUSH: Well, they'll tell you how to do it and
 how to kind of smile and don't look intense, and look into
 the camera.
    KING: Look that way, look this way?
    BUSH: Yeah. Put a red and blue tie on, you know 
 and get your hair--
    KING: Do you buy that?
    BUSH: Well, listen, you've got to listen. We've
 got some darn good people that are helping me, and they've
 been pretty good about--and I love working with some of them
 too. I mean, they're just great. And I've got lots to learn.
 Lord, I've made mistakes. And I don't want to make more. And
 so these people help me avoid making mistakes.
    KING: And one of the mistake was that "No New Taxes."
    BUSH: Exactly. 
    KING: Was there an argument over that, about saying that?
 Is it true, stories this week that Darman said don't say
 that? And other people said please say that?
    BUSH: I don't know. I'm not into the ticky
 tacky on all this. But there probably was some debate. I'd
 have to go back and look at notes, but I was told there was
 a story today that I did not read yet. But I'm sure there
 was some going on behind the scenes.
    KING: There's a new pledge now thought about no new 
 taxes.
    BUSH: There's a new determination now. I try to
 avoid the word pledge because it's fraught with pitfalls.
 We've got a program and the difference between me and
 Governor Clinton is he has said he wants to raise taxes and
 he's already said he wants to spend $220 billion in
 spending. And I'm saying I want to control the growth of
 mandatory spending programs, and I want to get taxes down.
    KING: He said--
    BUSH: We're at a fundamental, philosophical 
 difference, and we can all flesh out who's got right. How
 many times he raised taxes, how many times I had. But we've
 got a fundamental different approach to how you get this
 country recovered--
    KING: He says your commercials are fraudulent, though.
 That' you're saying he's going to tax people under $200,000.
    BUSH: Phooey.
    KING: He says only over $200,000.
    BUSH: He can't. Larry, he says over $200,000.
 He also says the top 2%, will get the money that he needs, 
 and $200,000 will do it.
    The Congressional Budget Office and others have looked at
 the thing, and to get just what he talks about on top, you
 got to talk about $68,000--people making, I think it's
 $66,800, or $68,600. And then to start paying for the other
 spending programs he's talked about, you get down to
 $36,000. And if you flush out the full load, you're talking
 about cab drivers and everybody else.
    When they say tax the rich, work in America better watch
 out and watch its wallet, because that's what they're 
 talking about. Going right after the middle class. And his
 figures just don't add up.
    KING: We're going to have a little surprise in our
 remaining moments. The better half. I think you'd agree with
 that.
    BUSH: Yes.
    KING: Mr.s Bush joins us right after this.
    BUSH: Call them as you see them.
    (Announcements)
    KING: We're almost out of time. Where did the hour go? We 
 are joined by Barbara Bush, Mr.s Bush, first lady of the US,
 and the best-selling author is sleeping on the floor,
 Millie, who never leaves her side, right?
    KING: Do you like campaigning, Barbara?
    MRS. BUSH: I love it.
    KING: You love it.
    MRS. BUSH: I've got the greatest candidate. I have no
 trouble at all speaking well of George Bush. And I love--
    KING: Do you like being an underdog?
    MRS. BUSH: He's going to win. 
    KING: But I mean, do you like the fact that he's not
 favored to win? Some people do like--
    MRS. BUSH: No, no, I don't go for that. But you see, I
 know he's winning.
    KING: How?
    MRS. BUSH: Well, because I go out and work malls and go to
 a lot of places all around the country. I did 11 cities in 7
 states a couple of weeks ago, and then last week, I was on
 the road. I didn't count where I was, but I just can feel 
 he's winning. They trust him, they think he's got good
 programs, they didn't know a lot of the things he's done, to
 tell you the honest truth.
    KING: Do you get angry at Governor Clinton and Ross
 Perot, at Hillary Clinton, at--do you get your gander up?
    MRS. BUSH: May I tell you why I don't? I'm like the
 ostrich. I read a lot of books during this period, and I say
 to George--
    BUSH: She does.
    MRS. BUSH: --tell me the good news. 
    KING: In other words, you don't watch if Clinton's
 speaking on television--
    MRS. BUSH: Never. I saw him last night. We were at a
 dinner together, and--
    KING: What happens? It just bothers you to hear your
 husband criticized?
    MRS. BUSH: Just get furious because it's not true.
    KING: How do you take it?
    MRS. BUSH: Oh, he's a much better sport. 
    BUSH: Well, I don't--I try to read and I try to
 watch some shows.
    KING: Do you dislike Bill Clinton?
    BUSH: No, no, I don't dislike him. I'll tell
 you what we're trying to do, though, is get his--you see,
 here's what I think one of the problems has been. For a
 while, it was these 8 Democrats, or 7, hammering my record.
 Now it's him hammering my record. So I've had to start
 putting in perspective his record and saying to America, now 
 look, here's what I'm for, here's what we've done, here's
 the problems, here's what I failed to do, here's what I will
 do. But here's his record, and we've got to look at it in
 detail.
    And I think that's made a little more tension on his part
 because, very candidly, Larry, the record in Arkansas is
 pretty sorry. I mean, environmental, whatever else it is--
    KING: You're pretty tough. Do you dish, too?
    BUSH: Well, dish it out? Not--
    KING: Personalities get into it, Barbara. 
    MRS. BUSH: I only campaign for--I'm asked every day, how
 do you like so-and-so? What do you think about so-and-so?
 And I say, ask me about George Bush. I know about him.
    BUSH: Barbara keeps it positive. And I've
 gotten now to going a little bit to define the opposition a
 little more clearly. I have to do it. He's misdefining me.
    MRS. BUSH: But he doesn't sing his own praises as well as
 I do, either.
    KING: There, you see. 
    While we have the 2 of you together, we can clear up
 something that a lot of people maybe are confused about on
 the abortion issue, that ended the convention with people--
    MRS. BUSH: Want to make a bet about clearing it up?
    KING: (Laughs) Maybe we can clear it up.
    MRS. BUSH: Maybe. Let's see.
    KING: Do you support the platform?
    BUSH: I support the platform, but here's my
 position. I am against abortion, I am against federal 
 funding, except for the life of the mother, and I am against
 abortions except for rape, incest and the life of the
 mother. Now, that's a clear position. It's been there, and--
    KING: So that differs from the platform--
    BUSH: Well, I don't know exactly.
    KING: The platform's against it entirely.
    BUSH: Well, then, I'm--I've given you my
 position, and you know, there's an awful lot of time spent
 in the media talking about abortion, which shows up on these
 issues as number 20 or number 19 or number 11. And I don't
 know why there was so much debate. When they were at the
 Democratic convention, Governor Casey--I don't think he was
 even allowed to speak there.
    MRS. BUSH: He wasn't.
    BUSH: And we had people on both sides of the
 question.
    MRS. BUSH: We ought to be talking about abstention and
 about education. We really should, Larry. We're talking the
 wrong way.
    KING: You don't think it's an issue, then, or shouldn't
 be an issue?
    MRS. BUSH: I think the issue is that we ought to tell
 children that sex is--is death. It is. Promiscuous sex is
 death. They shouldn't be doing that.
    We ought to be telling these wonderful young women
 there's a great deal of life out there for you if you finish
 school, if you get a job, and then you can have a family.
 But you shouldn't be having promiscuous sex. It just ruins
 your life.
    BUSH: One other thing on this question bothers
 me. A 13-year old girl cannot get her ears pierced in some
 places without permission of her parents. And yet Governor
 Clinton and those people want to pass an abortion law that
 doesn't require parents to be notified if the child's going
 to have an abortion. I find that appalling. I find that is
 something that is not good for families. We're trying to
 strengthen families.
    KING: At this point, do you agree with the vice president
 that the Pennsylvania law is sort of okay?
    BUSH: Well, I think certain parts of it. I've
 just named one part which I think is just fine.
    KING: We've run out--
    MRS. BUSH: You can't have your appendix out.
    KING: What?
    MRS. BUSH: You can't have your appendix out without your
 parent's knowing.
    KING: You're going to keep--oh, Millie going to do
 another book?
    MRS. BUSH: I hope so.
    KING: Canseco's going to play well for the Rangers next
 year?
    BUSH: He'd better because my son's got a big
 stake in this--George, the Ranger man.
    KING: Thank you both very much. Thanks for joining us,
 both. Thanks, Mr. President.
    BUSH: Larry, nice to be with you.
    KING: Thank you.
    And the president will join us on an upcoming edition of 
 Larry King Live from our studios. We'll ask Mr.s Bush to
 come, too.
    Will you come?
    MRS. BUSH: Now, Larry, that isn't fair to ask on the air.
    KING: Well, the president is coming. Mr.s Bush may
 accompany him, and the president will be with us some time
 within the next 4 weeks.
    See you tomorrow night with the other side of the
 ticket--the Clinton-Gore folks from Florida. Thanks for
 joining us. Good night.


------------------OS/2 v2.0 -- Why settle for anything less?--------------------
James C. Barrett (barrett@cc.gatech.edu)|"If your so damned smart, why are
Georgia Tech College of Computing       |  you doing what you're doing, and I'm
                                        |  president of the U.S.?" - G.Bush
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