HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: Deportation vs. Murder
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 03:36:52 GMT

jle@lear.bos.locus.com (John Elghani) writes:

>In article <1gvbffINNo7s@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:
>>
>>   There has been much talk about the deportations in the context
>>of their political significance.  I wonder why terrorist activity
>>and murders on the part of Arab terrorists directed Israelis, are
>>not regarded as politically significant?  There seems to be a bit
>>of a double standard here.
>>
>>   A man is kidnapped.  A short time later, his body is found out
>>on the side of some road, dumped like a bag of garbage.  The body

>If Syria occupied Tel Aviv, and this soldier happned to be a syrian
>kidnapped by jews asking  for the release of Shamir, then executed,  
>you woldn't have a problem with that, right?  ADMIT IT.

First of all, it's highly unlikely any Israeli group would do anything
like that.

Second of all, if one did, it would be virtually universally condemned
by other Israelis.

Third, the analogy is poor, since Tel Aviv is part of Israel.  The
territories that Israel now controls were never part of any nation
other than a Jewish one.  (The exception to that is the Golan Heights,
which were used as a jumping off point for attacks on the Israelis
living below the heights.)
-- 
Alan H. Stein   -----  AJIN   -----  astein@israel.nysernet.org
From: wc4209@writer.yorku.ca (Irene Berkovich)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Occupation
Date: 3 Jan 93 18:37:23 GMT
Organization: Computer Assisted Writing Centre, York University, Toronto, Canada

In article <1993Jan3.162751.4004@wisipc.weizmann.ac.il> fedimit@wisslc1.weizmann.ac.il (Dan nabuovsky) writes:
>In article <Jan.2.15.19.57.1993.27014@staccato.rutgers.edu> marwang@staccato.rutgers.edu (Marwan Gharaybeh) writes:
>
>>It seems that a lot of people blindly believed everything that poped
>>off Miss Universe's mouth. Her charming face mislead a lot of people
>>to beleive all the lies she said.
>
>Didn't knew that Arafat is Miss Universe.
>
>Dan.

You have obviously never seen Yasir decked out in his skirt, wig, and falsies.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,news.admin.policy
From: scs@iti.org (Steve Simmons)
Subject: Re: What is your point "HELA iti"? Scared of creating "*.*.*armenia"?
Organization: Industrial Technology Institute
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 17:51:24 GMT

sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic) writes:

>In article <scs.725581719@wotan.iti.org> scs@iti.org (Steve Simmons) writes:

>>Me, I'm kind of curious to see what Karl is gonna do.

>Nature so works it that everybody gets a turn at getting what
>they deserve in one way or another. Is this a threat?

Do you consider curiousity a threat?  Perhaps only that curiousity
which might lead to facts that dispute you?

Nice followup line you had there.

NN users -- to make these followups more useful, set the line:

set header-lines =S=YnD_F=W

in your .nn/init file.  This will cause Subject:, Summary: and
Followup-To: lines to be highlighted, will display the From: line
with an underline, will display Newsgroups: and Date: in plaintext. 

			'The war quickly developed into one of exhaustion.
			We cloned the lies and made up passages that might
			preserve our ways of escapism, and then proceeded
			to talk our enemies into exhaustion.'
						(Ourheinous Actians)
-- 
	"You can't get here from here."
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24491 talk.politics.soviet:10110 soc.culture.greek:11972 soc.culture.europe:10925 soc.history:10468 soc.culture.soviet:11711 news.admin.policy:1003 soc.culture.yugoslavia:10342
From: ifaz706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Deportation of Palestinians
Organization: University of Texas @ Austin
Date: 30 Dec 92 18:06:12 CST

In article <29851@castle.ed.ac.uk>, jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson) writes:

		[...] 

> are plain to see, and yet they STILL pop up defending the indefensible. I
> am sure that Makowsky, Tractinsky and the whole sick crew would defend the
> devil himself if he wrapped himself in the Israeli flag. So it is with some
> regret that I am adding the names of these gents to my killfile. 


	An intellectual tour de fource by our dear old friend, 
	Jeremy. How pity he won't be able to read my enthusiastic 
	response.



Noam
From: ifaz706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Deportation of Palestinians
Organization: University of Texas @ Austin
Date: 31 Dec 92 15:34:43 CST

In article <29857@castle.ed.ac.uk>, jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson) writes:

> 
> Right. I think it's plain enough that people who will defend the punishment
> of a group of people without any trial, on the basis simply of the beliefs
> they are alleged to hold, will support just about anything. 


	Does anyone recall massive demonstrations in GB against 
	the indiscriminate bombing of German cities during WWII, 
	where hundreds of thousands of innocents were killed, 
	not even for their beliefs. But, hey, we already know 
	those Britts will support just about anything. 	

	Another documentation for the Henderson-the-Hypocrite file.

> -- 
> ===Jeremy Henderson===jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk=          
>                                                    


Noam


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Palestinians blame Israel for 'killing' peace process
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 92 19:54:16 GMT

In article <1992Dec24.042707.0157050@locus.com> jle@lear.bos.locus.com (John Elghani) writes:

>	JERUSALEM (UPI) -- Grim-faced Palestinian leaders warned Wednesday
>that Israel's deportation of 415 Muslim militants to Lebanon was 
>``killing'' the Middle East peace process,

But the murders they continue to commit inside Israel, both of Israelis
and of Arabs, hasn't hurt, right?  Had this kind of activity been
happening in the USA, it would be called a crime spree.

>	Faisal Husseini, the top adviser to the Palestinian delegation at the
>peace talks, said supporters of the Palestine Liberation Organization
>were weighing a renewed emphasis on ``armed struggle.''

"Renewed emphasis"?  What have they been doing in recent months,
partying?  What a bunch of deceptive tripe!

>	``The Israelis have given a death blow to the peace process and they
>are the only side that can bring it back to life,'' he said.

It's never your fault, is it.  Never miss an opportunity to miss an
opportunity and never fail to blame your failures on others.

>	In the Gaza Strip, residents said 35 Palestinians were injured during
>clashes in Gaza City's Palestine Square after groups of young men pelted
>soldiers with stones. 

It should be noted that this occurred during a lifting of the crufew
when only women were allowed out to get food and essentials.  The
"groups of young men" who "pelted soldiers with stones" should have
expected to have been injured.  

>They said two of the injured were in critical
>condition, and that a 6-year-old boy was reported in moderate condition
>after being shot in the abdomen.

How many others among the "groups of young men who pelted soldiers
with stones" were 6-year-old boys?

>	Hanan Ashrawi, spokeswoman for the Palestinian delegation, said at
>the East Jerusalem gathering that the expulsion was the most glaring,
>but by no means the only recent, Israeli blow to the peace process. 
>``You cannot have a charade of negotiations when the substance of peace
>is being negated daily,'' she said.

She should know.  She is the chief apologist for the PLO and has yet
to condemn the violence that the PLO perpetrates on Palestineans!

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com              10 years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed President.
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:23950 talk.politics.soviet:9932 soc.culture.greek:11804 soc.culture.europe:10738 soc.history:10339 soc.culture.soviet:11458 soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:946 soc.culture.croatia:213
From: pawel@tethys.ph.albany.edu
Subject: Re: Democracy (was Re: american opinion)
Reply-To: pawel@tethys.ph.albany.edu
Organization: SUNYA School of Public Health, Albany, NY
Distribution: talk
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 92 15:37:24 GMT

In article <1992Dec30.215928.19895@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, wmuhanna@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Waleed A Muhanna) writes:
>Here we go again...
>
>In article <1992Dec28.223237.27278@cs.brown.edu> hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:
>>
[...]
>
>	In practice, the Zionist state is a state where "citizenship" 
>is distinguished from "nationality".  In every democracy, a citizen is 
>also a national of the state.  Under Israeli law, however, there is no 
[...]

  This statement is surprising !  In whole Europe nationality is something
completely different from citizenship and the whole problem has nothing
to do with democracy.

  Unfortunately the rest of the text (deleted) is equally erroneous and it
would take ages to straighten opinions expressed ...

                                                        Paul Penczek
From: revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Resisting occupation
Date: 24 Dec 92 08:22:36 GMT

<1992Dec24.003344.5890> wmuhanna@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Waleed A Muhanna):

>If you think it's OK to treat natives
>in 1990 in the way they were treated in 1790, then say so. 
    ^^^^                                 ^^^^

	Don't forget 1890, when  U.S. troops massacred over
	200 Sioux men, women, and children 
        at Wounded Knee (South Dakota, December 29).


>If you think that slavery should be acceptable today,
>you should also come out and say so.  


	Slavery should be as acceptable today as the
        wanton annihilation of another country.


>Your typical
>mode of argumentation, Mr. Evans, is designed to avoid ever having to commit
>to any positive definition of acceptable state/human behavior.  I challenge
>you to do so.

	Acceptable behavior is not an absolute.  
	Killing in war time may be more acceptable than killing
	in peace time.  I do not demand the same standard of
	behavior for a country surrounded by peaceful neighbors
	than I do for a country surrounded by those who, like
	Mr. Muhanna, deny Israel's unconditional right to exist!


>Native Americans do have equal rights today in America; 

	How convenient it is for us to take a people's land, and 
	then say blithely (while living on that land!):  Well, you 
	have equal rights now.  The U.S. can certainly help to
	rectify the situation by returning some of the stolen 
	land.  Should Indians help speed up the process by
	randomly killing U.S. soldiers?
	

>America does
>not call itself the "white state" or "the state of the Christian people"


	How are Jews treated in Saudi Arabia or Syria?  If there
	weren't so many examples like this, a "Jewish state"
	wouldn't be needed.


>and the US constitution guarantees equal rights for all regardless of race,
>color, religion or ethnic heritage.  You cannot say the same in the case of
>zionist Israel, ...


	Not a single state in the Middle East has such 
	Constitutional guarantees. I wonder why Israel has been
	singled out.  




>... the natives (the Palestinians) are regarded as foreigners in
>their own homeland just because they don't happen to be Jews.

	Ah, so Israel is discriminating against Palestinians
	because they are not Jews!
	Silly me, I thought Palestinian threats of annihilation somehow
	entered the picture.  Live and learn.
-- 
Ron Evans (revans@math.ucsd.edu)
From: jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Rabin the peace-maker
Date: 22 Dec 92 13:50:11 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <1992Dec21.143955.1@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu> ifaz706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (Noam Tractinsky) writes:
~In article <29762@castle.ed.ac.uk>, jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson) writes:
~> 
~> Oh and by the way, in a TV appearance, he claims to have had no choice.
~> Well excuuuuuuuuuuuse me!, but in civilised countries (not necessarily in
~> Syria, or Iraq, but in *civilised* countries) people aren't punished until
~> some evidence against them has been presented in a court of law, with due
~> right to defence. 
~
~
~	Could you believe it? Me agreeing with Jeremy!
~
~	Indeed, in a *civilized* countries (like the *U.K.*) people
~	aren't punished until evidence is presented in a court of
~	law, with due right to defence. Remember the Birmingham 
~	Gang, whose members were convicted and imprisoned by the 
~	British court based on faked evidence presented by the 
~	British authorities?  Or the IRA guys who were executed by
~	the Brits in Gibraltar without facing any trial whatsoever?
~	Those guys sure would have preferred expulsion over a bullet
~	through the head.

The important point to note is that the Birmingham Six and co. were
FREED - the system was bad but mistakes were acknowledged. Has Israel
done anything similar? The IRA people were shot while engaged in terrorist
activity.

~ Maybe Israel could try setting its standards just a little
~> higher?
~
~	Maybe Israel could try setting its standards just a little
~	bit lower to meet those of the U.K, and Jeremy's requirements
~	for a proof of civilization.

The UK is not by any means perfect, but at least the army don't go round
shooting 8-year-old girls.


-- 
===Jeremy Henderson===jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk=          

This message cost the net hundreds if not thousands of dollars.
Bloody good value if you ask me.
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24418 soc.culture.jewish:24312
From: dat@ukc.ac.uk (D.A.Turner)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Israel must return the deportees!
Date: 31 Dec 92 03:51:23 GMT
Reply-To: dat@ukc.ac.uk (D.A.Turner)
Organization: Computing Lab, University of Kent at Canterbury, UK.

In article <RLK.92Dec28221058@underprize.think.com> (Robert Krawitz) writes:
>In article <531@owl.ukc.ac.uk> dat@ukc.ac.uk (D.A.Turner) writes:
>
>   Can people not see that the violence of Hamas and similar  organisations
>   is the natural reaction of the Palestinians to the misery of their lives
>   under Israeli occupation?
>
>Then why were such groups organized long before June 1967, when this was
>not an issue (the PLO was formed in 1964)?

Most of the territory of Palestine was seized in 1948.   Three  quarters
of  a  million  Palestinians were driven from their homes, in an "ethnic
cleansing" similar to what is now going on  in  Bosnia.   The  remainder
became  second  class citizens in a Zionist state.  This event is called
in Arabic "El Naqbar" - the Catastrophe.  The shock waves of that  event
are  still echoing around the arab world.  If you want to understand the
Israel/Palestine dispute, the key year is 1948, not 1967.

David Turner
(A British Jew who does NOT support Israel)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Subject: Re: ERETZ YISRAEL (was Re: deportation)
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 23:47:30 GMT

In article <1huqvaINN3hq@tyl.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:

# I claim the first posting for 1993!

	Still 1992 where I live.

# makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:

# >In article <1hrfo6INNpa1@manuel.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:
 
# ># Nobody disputes that there was significant migration into and out
# ># of Palestine over many years, but your contention that most 
# ># Palestinian Arabs of 1910 resulted from it is not supported by
# ># the evidence.  Here is one of many pieces of quantitative evidence
# ># that prove you are dead wrong:
 
# >	If it proves him dead wrong you ommitted a lot.
 
# >#   Birth places of residents of Jerusalem and Hebron districts in 1905.
#                     ^ Moslem
 
# >#                        Cities              Villages
# >#   district       Jerusalem  Hebron     Jerusalem  Hebron

# >#   same place        78.0     96.7        93.9     94.8
# >#   other Palestine   10.3      2.5         5.7      4.4 
# >#   not Palestine     11.7      0.8         0.4      0.8

# >#   [U. O. Schmelz, Population characteristics of Jerusalem and Hebron
# >#      districts according to the Ottoman census of 1905, in Ottoman
# >#      Palestine 1800-1914 (G. Gilbar, ed.), (Brill Leiden, 1990).]

# >As we now know due to the deabte over where Yassir Arafat was
# >born, what used to be registered as birth places was not where they
# >were born, but where the births were registered.  Someone born in say
# >Amman who had his birth registered in Jerusalem would be listed as
# >having been born in Jerusalem.  This is the center of the controversy
# >over where Arafat was born since it is how things were done.
 
# How could I have missed this explanation?  Tens of thousands of people 
# in 1905 (twelve years before the Balfour Declaration) conspired to 
# register their births in the wrong place.  As proof of this there is 
# a controversy over the birth place of someone born twelve years 
# AFTER the Balfour Declaration.  The Ottoman registration system had 
# been replaced by the British system in the meantime, but, hell, Arabs
# will be Arabs.  I wish I was as clever as you, David.


	A nice, typical. ad hominem attack which shows nothing.  Births
were registered similarly.  As it  births were registered when
convennient, and not every place had somewhere to register births all
the time.  In some cases, they were not registered at all so
assumptions (or whatever you want to call it) were made.
--
	There are three types of people in the world.  Those that are good
at math and those that are not.

makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian boy
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 22:38:51 GMT

In article <1992Dec19.080036.0106498@locus.com> jle@lear.bos.locus.com (John Elghani) writes:

>To die for the name of God is to fight those that opress the muslims,

How do you explain the Jihad that the Ayatollah declared against
Saddam, in which 1-2 million Muslims were slaughtered?  I know that 
Saddam isn't that religious but was he "oppressing Muslims"?

>attempt to block the expansion of belief in God, fight islam
>just because it is islam, or a fight for your very right.
>
>Those children that are getting killed are fighting opression and 
>are attempting to regain their right from an occupier.

Yeah, right, just like the Hamas people have been killing off the 
PLO people in Gaza.  Are you now accusing the PLO of "oppression"?
This would be a switch for you.

>If you are right, muslims should kill themselves for joy, 

Westerners looking at the hundreds of Muslims killed in Israel, the
thousands killed in Jordan, the tens of thousands killed in Syria and
the million or 2 killed in Iran/Iraq have to start wondering if it is 
joy, after all.

>then why do they wait for israel to kill them,  

Obviously, they don't.

>they can put themselves on fire.
 
Obviously, they do.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com              10 years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed President.
From: ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Deportation of Palestinians
Date: 3 Jan 93 11:13:48 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

In article <1i2pg2INNpk3@life.ai.mit.edu> gwydion@gnu.ai.mit.edu
(Mercenary Programmer) writes:

>The only way to claim correctness in their deportations is to assume
>that any Palestinian is automatically guilty.
                                        ^^^^^^
Nice Basalat! after so much time you agree that aperson doing the PLO
and Hamas activity should be defined as GUILTY ! fine , continue in
your new way.

>  As Steve Goldfield once put it so eloquently, "There was this
> Palestinian terrorist, crying in his crib."
>                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Basalat Ali Raja.

This remind me a case happened at Rehovot Hospital , a stranger (
Arabian) woman of gaza stood neer her baby while he was about to pass
a surgery in his eye : " be happy she told her baby , they will fix
your eye and you will be able to see them and to through stones at
them! " one of the workers at the room said he can't work in such a
situation but another one took his place and there was a happy end to
the story , the kid is o.k. and may by smashed jewish heads with his
stones!

Gideon

Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:23920 talk.politics.soviet:9910 soc.culture.greek:11775 soc.culture.europe:10709 soc.history:10315 soc.culture.soviet:11434 soc.culture.arabic:5831
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.europe,soc.history
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: Continuation on "sea novices".
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 21:33:43 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <1992Dec21.081139.4962@wuecl.wustl.edu> tpd1@cec2.wustl.edu (Theodore P. David) writes:

>And just to stop making yourself a fool. Palikari (-ia for plural) is said
>for someone who is brave. Is said to please someone, and not to offend him.
 
"Someone" with or without a skirt? Well, just where is the "palik" now?


Source: THE EUROPEAN - 27-30 August 1992, page 13

Sea novices: Although famed as a maritime nation and despite being
surrounded by seas, a report has disclosed that only one in ten
conscripts called up to join the Greek navy can swim.

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
From: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: mr. perlman
Date: 24 Dec 92 10:34:39 EST
Reply-To: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Distribution: talk
Organization: Channel 1 Communications

To: Yigal Arens

 YA> [to Eric Perlman:]
 YA> Of course.  "As [you] have already shown".  But you have
 YA> *not* backed up your perposterous statement concerning
 YA> "numerous" PLO-activists who supposedly seek Israeli
 YA> protection.

I've been following the thread with one eye, and indeed Mr.
Perlman has not backed up his statement. (I'd also worry about
that scrap of evidence from Steven Emerson. Steven Emerson--well,
better not to get into that.)

I believe it was Mr. Perlman who also breezily stated that the
charges about "Papa" Maxwell (is that an affectionate term?)
which surfaced in and around Seymour Hersh's Samson Option had
been refuted in the world press. I challenged him to produce some
examples of this, and he came up with nothing. In truth, the
information which emerged about Maxwell in the world press after
Hersh's book appeared were far more damaging than anything in the
book.

I've noticed a tendency among some Israeli supporters here to get
bogged down in logic games and other forms of sophistry as a
substitute for substantive, fact-based discussion. This seems
like a curious tack to take when the country they love is going
down the tubes due in significant part to the bad judgement of
its leaders. It puts one in mind of Nero fiddling while Rome
burns. They can't see the forest for the trees.
---
  OLX 3.01 31-2557  Who's that redhaired goddess in the black leather?
--
Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA