From: mw@ki.fht-mannheim.de (Marc Wachowitz)
Subject: Re: Transcendental Meditation
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 07:43:22 GMT
Organization: Fachhochschule fuer Technik Mannheim
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

Hank Cohen <hank@westford.ccur.com> wrote:
: In TM the process is responsive to the needs of the body and
: nervous system at the time of meditation.  In that sense it is a
: completely here and now process.
There is only "here and now", anyway. You can't reach it or escape from it -
and "here and now" no "you" can be seen.

: TM holds that the body and not the intellect should control the process.
When here is the controlled and the controller, there is delusion.

: On mantras:
: >So why all that worry about keeping it private?
: The first reason for keeping the mantra private is that it is taught
: under the agreement that it will be kept private.
: This has been true for thousands of years.
I don't care for argument by authority (and calling it "agreement" without
insight is absurd). Wars and torture did also exist for thousands of years.

: In any case we can as eaisly say why all that worry about exactly what the
: mantra sounds like?
Indeed; as Krishnamurti remarked: You can as well repeat "Coca-Cola" again and
again, and you'll certainly have a peculiar experience - but you can feel very
well and still be very deluded.

: >Btw, from my perspective mantras and thought-following are still forms of
: >concentration, not non-exclusive awareness.
: First the mantra is not an object of concentration any more than your
: breath is an object of concentration in normal activity.
With a mantra thoughts a moving (though it appears silent - but that is like
getting used to some equal-level background noise and ignoring it).

: Second what is "non-exclusive awareness"?
Expressed simply, it means there is no "censor" trying to judge or change the
experience, not even the feeling of an "experiencer" having the experience.

: Exactly! just the beginning. The goal of meditation is not the
: experience of meditation.
A goal requires someone who wants to archive it - in meditation there's no need
for that.

: Mr. Wachowitz seems to think that samadhi is not a desirable state.
No, that wasn't meant at all (and please never interpret my comments as trying
to be prescriptive - sometimes it's easyer to formulate this way, but it's only
meant as communicating views, not rules).

There's a Zen saying: proceede from the top of a hundred feet high pile.

: What I am discussing is not the goal but the path, they are not the same
: thing.
As they say, the way is just under your feet, path and goal are one.
Noone ever departed from the Tao, the street is free, without barrier.

: An effective technique for attaing Enlightenment must take into
: account that we are not there.
Indeed, "we" are not there :-)

: Personally I appreciate that TM provides a consistent intellectual
: framework for understanding both the process and the goal.
Assuming the "knower" is exactly the delusion.

: I find Zen to be irrational and anti-intellectual and I don't like either
: quality.
It is turning out a thorn with a thorn.

: >It can be seriously doubted that meditation cannot really be tought, but must
: >be found out, and all kinds of methods are just hindrances to that.
: That is a rather cynical and fatalistic view.  I prefer to think that
: meditation can be easily learned by anyone and that it's effectiveness
: is not a matter of faith but experience.
Do you need a teacher to see the beauty of a flower, someone to tell you how
your heart should beat, to feel the air on the skin?
The flower is the teacher, the fresh wind and every drop of rain,
you are the teacher - just all is!


Lighten up :-)

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Marc Wachowitz, mw@gandalf.ki.fht-mannheim.de, 75742@novell1.rz.fht-mannheim.de
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