From: jcargill@grilled.cs.wisc.edu (Jon Cargille)
Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd
Subject: Summary:  386bsd CD-ROM Survey
Date: 23 Nov 92 16:56:06 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin, Madison -- Computer Sciences Dept.


		     386bsd CD-ROM Survey Results


Well, here are the results from my cd-rom survey as promised.  Each
blank is filled in with the number of people who "checked" it.  For
example:

	 [15]   I think foo.
	  28%

would mean that 15 replies had a X or equivalent in the blank, and
that 15 responses represents 28% of the total replies received.

To put the numbers in perspective, there were 55 total returned surveys.  

Executive Summary and My Conclusions
------------------------------------

I was a little surprised that so few surveys were returned.  Perhaps
that just means that usenet was not in the mood for another survey,
but it's something we have to consider before plunging into this.

I think we're just about at the critical mass needed to make cheap
cd-rom distributions of 386bsd possible.  But perhaps we're not quite
there.  If only 50 people buy, mastering costs alone will come to
$30/disc.  That's not really what I consider "cheap" enough to make it
painless for people to buy repeatedly as new versions are released.
We really need volume of at least 100 repeat buyers, if we're going to
bring the costs down to around the $15 mark.

So it may be necessary to include Linux & 386bsd on a disc at this
point in time, just to get sufficient volume to make this effort cost
effective.  Of course, that's a whole bunch of extra work, since Linux
doesn't really have coherent releases, as 386bsd does.

Most people agreed that unpacked distributions were critical.  I
personally feel very strongly about this point.  Having a mountable
distribution will allow even those with minimal disk space to compile
packages and rebuild kernels.  Several people suggested having scripts
to "mirror" portions of the disk on the hard drive, to get around
ISO9660 name length limitations.  Actually, I would prefer to use the
RockRidge extensions which Bill is currently adding.  However, if for
some reason these don't make it into 0.2, some other solution would be
required.  I hadn't mentioned these two options in the Survey, because
I thought it went without saying that we'd have to deal with long
filenames in one of the "Right Ways."

Most people (60%) seemed to favor including a contribution to the
Jolitz's in the purchase price.  The rest seemed to favor making it
optional.  Someone raised a valid point that making the pricing
confusing would discourage sales.  Another person commented that what
went to the Jolitz's was (paraphrase) "no one's business except the
seller's."  While that may be true in some sense, I'd like to keep as
many people as possible happy if I do this thing.  The Net is such a
political beast...  ;-)

At any rate, enough commentary from me.  Here are the full results:


General information:
--------------------
Yes   No
---   ---
[41]   [14]     I am currently a user of 386bsd.
 75%    26%
			
[24]   [28]     I currently own a cd-rom drive.
 44%    51%

		[27]   I don't own a cd-rom drive now, but I would buy one if
                 49%   cheap 386bsd distributions were available.

[50]  [2]     I am interested in cd-rom distributions of 386bsd.
 91%   4%

[4]   [11]     I'm not interested in cd-rom 38bsd distributions right now, but:
 7%    20%		[0]  Might be interested in the future.
			 0%
			[7]  Would definitely be interested in the future.
			 13%

Thoughts on pricing:
-------------------

I've been thinking that it might be reasonable to charge a bit more
the first time someone buys a 38bsd cd-rom, but make distributions
very cheap for repeat customers.  I was thinking of numbers like
$30-40 for first-timers, and $15 or less for upgrades.  Obviously the
exact figures would depend on what volume we expect to see, but I hope
you get the idea.  It would be great it enough people were interested
that we could get *lots* cheaper.

Please check all that apply:
		[38]   I like the sound of this two-level pricing.
                 69%     
		[1]   I don't like this idea.  I probably wouldn't buy a
                 2%   cd-rom distribution at all if I were going to be
                      charged more the first time than repeat buyers are 
                      paying.

		[13]   I'm not sure I like this pricing scheme, but I 
                 24%   could live with it.

		[30]   I would be willing to pay $30-40 the first time,
                 55%   as long as cheap update versions would be available.

		[23]   I would be willing to pay $15 or so for updates to
                 42%   the latest/greatest versions, as they are
                       released.

                [7]   I would be willing to pay the above prices, but only
                13%   temporarily until higher-volume/cheaper prices can 
                      be achieved.

		[0]   These prices are ridiculously high!  Are you nuts?
		 0%
		[11]   These prices are ridiculously low!  Start shipping, 
                 20%   quick, before the Death Star ruins you!


Contribution to the Jolitz's:
-----------------------------

I think it would be nice to include a contribution to the Jolitz's in
this idea somewhere, as thanks for their past work, and to help them
continue the good work in the future.

Please check all that apply:

	[33]    I think it would be great to include a Jolitz contribution
         60%    in the cd-rom price.  Everyone should contribute!

        [13]    I think it would be best to make it an optional, but 
         24%    recommended portion of the cd-rom price.

	[7]    It's ok to make it an option, but I don't think it should 
        13%    be recommended, or pushed on people in any way.

	[3]    I'd rather keep my contributions to the Jolitz's separate 
         5%    from the cd-rom distribution.


Disk structure:
--------------

I think a cd-rom would be great for people with minimal hard drive
space.  Therefore, I think exploded directory structures are a
necessity, so that people can build new kernels, build X, etc, while
leaving all the sources on the cd-rom.

Yes   No
---   ---
[38]   [8]     I think an unpacked directory structure is a must.
 69%   15%
[18]   [11]    I think an unpacked structure is nice, but I would really 
 33%    20%    like to see the packed distribution images included as well.

[16]   [9]     Packed distribution are ok, but I would rather see the 
 29%   16%     space used on other useful net-stuff.


User profile:
------------

Please check one:
              
      [6]     I'm primarily interested in a cd-rom distribution as a means
      11%     of keeping an archival copy of 386bsd distributions around.

      [7]     I'm most interested in freeing up hard disk space by 
      13%     keeping rarely accessing things mounted via cd-rom.

      [39]     I'm interested in both uses.
       71%

      [5]     I'm interested for other reasons: ___________________________
       9%

	Here are their other reasons:

         -   freeing up disk space,
         -   convenience for installation (one CD-ROM vs. hundreds of floppies)
         -   I'm also interested in *bootable* CD-ROMs, to again aid the 
                   installation process.
         -   Getting started with 386bsd
         -   Looking for a quick easy way to install alot of machines.
         -   easier than ftp'ing everything!
         -   No ftp-access (version 0.2) !
         -   (1.) confidence in having an unscrewed up directory structure 
                   which I can always rely on and 
         -   (2.) a way to be sure I have the latest version

Software to be included:
-----------------------
Check those you would like to see on a 386bsd cd-rom:

98%     [54]   XFree86 sources/binaries
78%	[43]   TeX
87%     [48]   Lots of GNU software
44%     [24]   RFCs
55%     [30]   Random net goodies, like the net-hackers dictionary, etc.

	34 people suggested at least one addition to this list.
	Here's the list of what people wanted to see added:

Lots of these were repeated several times, such as Net/2, X11R5
contrib, etc.  Someone even had the gall to suggest proprietary
software, such as Windows NT and Deskview/X.  ;-)  Yeah, right.

        [X]   Linux (combined CD)________________________  
        [X]   the BSD Net2 tape__________________________
        [X]   original NET-2 and/or BSD4.4 light if at all possible ????
        [X]   perl
        [X]   Decent mail readers (INN and/or Elm), etc...
        [X]   Julian Elisher's SCSI driver improvements__  
                  to 386BSD so that CD and tape are supported
        [X]   Tools to cope with ISO short file names to_  
                  long file name conversion/linking______
        [X]   _comp.sources.unix archive_________________  
        [X]   _comp.sources.games archive________________  
        [X]   _comp.sources.misc archive_________________  
        [x]   LPmud, NNTP, an archie database
        [X]   386bsd mailing list/newsgroup archives  
        [x]   documentation (ascii format and maybe postscript also) on basic
              unix stuff such as how to get started with networking, how to get
              started with x, etc.
        [x]   Document on buying pc hardware for unix systems (whatever it's
              called that floats around on the net every now and then)
        [x]   MIT-X11 + contrib__________________________  
        [Y]   Everything in all archives at nova and rachel, anywhere else? 
        [x]   elm  
        [x]   new reader (nn or similiar)  
        [X]   Archives of some (or all) of the best postings to comp.unix.bsd.
        [X]   The patchkit.  
        [x]   "useful" X software like ups, xview, etc.__  
        [x]   Kermit, pcomm, xc or other serial communications package.
        [x]   Anything that will fit. Should be built so that
              anyone with 386BSD installed would be able to just
              'install' new packages. I have a package format
              involving perl you may like to use. I designed it just
              for this - installing off CD-ROM either by double symlinks
              of copying - for read only media and NFS ro mounts.
        [X]   BSD manuals (like those on gatekeeper.dec.com
              in /.0/BSD/manuals)
        [X]   Any available tutorial information on system
              and network configuration.
        [x]   MS Windows NT
        [x]   Desqview X
        [X]   TCL/TK (BOS)
        [X]   pbmplus and xv
        [X]   comp.sources.{unix,games,x} archives.
        [X]   FAQs and useful documentations
        [X]   C-News, nn      ___________________________  
        [X]   smail3.x, elm  ____________________________  
        [X]   essential X-Stuff (xview, xfig, xdvi, olwm)  
        [X]   NETHACK____________________________________  
        [X]   WEB would be nice__________________________  
        [X]   Emacs______________________________________  
        [X]   Motif, when ported.________________________  

Comments sections:
-----------------

[ed.  I have deleted all (I think) identifying information, in case people
thought their comments would in anonymous.  Hope no one minds.  --Jon]


------------------------------------

You might attract new people if you can tap into some market research
such as the clarinet streetprice report and quote people low prices on
one or two drives.

I would be much more inclined to participate if the project has some
direct contact with the Jolitzes.

Also, since they are working on CD-ROM support, it seems reasonable to
bundle some financial support for them into the costs.  I'm certain it
would have a very positive effect.

------------------------------------

Jon,  Thanks for the chance to respond to a survey.  I hope others respond
so you get some needed feedback.  Madtown was my home for 11 years, Please
say hello to the Union for me!  Good Luck

------------------------------------

There has been some talk of a Linux CD as well.  (Yes, I know about
the flame wars.)  I don't currently run 386BSD, but use Linux instead.
A CD with both Linux and 386BSD would be particularily attractive to me
as it would give me an archive of Linux and an easy way to try out 386BSD.
I realize this might be more difficult to put together, but Linux
does have CD-ROM support available now so it is possible.  

------------------------------------

a cdrom is a VERY good idea !

realize it as fast as possible !

------------------------------------

Please hurry!  I can't stand using System V much longer!

------------------------------------

Great idea! Do you think it will be ready before Thanksgiving?!

------------------------------------

    Great idea.  Hope it flies.  I would like to be able to use a 
    translucent file system to keep the sources on the CD-ROM, and only
    force things to disk if changes were made.  This, of-course, requires
    someone to do the TFS thing...

    if an unpacked directory structure is on the CD-ROM, there is no reason
    to waste more space with a packed version as well....  perhaps a script
    to make a packed version for those that want to make floppy distributions
    from a single CD-ROM.

    I would be willing to help out with a package of ported software to be
    put on the CD-ROM.  Let me know if you get good response.

------------------------------------

In terms of additional software to be included on a CD distribution, I
would really only like to see patched sources/binaries for 386BSD, as
CD-ROMS already exist from sources like Walnut Creek for the GNU, X,
Usenet sources groups, etc.

I've already mentioned the necessity to update the ISOFS driver for
Rock Ridge.

------------------------------------

an excellent idea, how do you overcome the 8+3 filename limitation of ISO 9660?

------------------------------------

The biggest hurdle for people with systems at home is getting all the megabytes
of data onto the hard disk the first time.  A CD-ROM would be great for that.

------------------------------------

I ran a UNIX/XENIX BBS for a number of years and am planning on switching
to 386 BSD, especially if the legal issues get settled (sigh..).

------------------------------------

An upgrade policy is a must.  I recently read that a 386bsd cdrom
distribution is available for $75 but this price is rather high and
there's no talk of an upgrade policy.  Since I just finished
installing everything (except for x) I don't really feel I can justify
$75.

Unix is forever being bashed because of lack of documentation.  As can
be seen above, I believe 386bsd should make some sort of effort to
help solve that problem.  It is, after all, for educational purposes.
Also, documents should be on the cd-rom in ASCII format.  Many don't
have access to a postscript printer, many would like to read documents
on-line, many have no plans (or disk spce) to install x, therefore
postscript won't be useful to all.

Finally, Perhaps the initial price for the disk should be slightly
higher and that additional cost should be the contribution to the
Joltz's.  If you force a contribution once, and leave future
contributions up to the purchaser of the cd-rom, you don't force
people to continually contribute.
 
------------------------------------

This sound like a great Idea.  Keep me posted!

------------------------------------

I don't think you're pricing scheme is un realistic, but I would be
willing to pay more if I knew that a larger contribution would go to
the Jolitz's Careware programs. I want a cd-rom because I have more
access to a cd-rom drive than a network, AND because if someone builds
a cd-rom image of the OS, it should be a more stable version because
someone took the time to put in the right patches and build and "test"
them.

------------------------------------

I thick this a CD-ROM is a good idea, specialy the contribution
for the jolitz.
Fill up the CD-ROM with all stuff that you find.

------------------------------------

	Almost everything I'm interested in *except* 386bsd and XFree86 is
	already available on the Prime Time Freeware CD-ROM distribution,
 	which BTW lists for $60 (includes two CDs; update subscriptions cost
 	$42).  It includes the GNU stuff, complete X sources, and much more.
	Therefore, I'd rather see the CD-ROM space devoted to 386bsd (packed
	and unpacked) and related goodies, such as ported software and/or
	patches to such.  PTF was to have included 386bas in their latest
	release, but backed off because of the USL suit.

------------------------------------

Go for it.

------------------------------------

 Frankly, I'm a bit cautious about even admitting I'm using 386BSD
 because of the USL legal threats.  I would prefer that identifying
 information about myself not be kept in any "386BSD users" database.

[ed. I'll be deleting all the information everyone submitted after the
survey is completed, so don't worry about this...  ;-)  --Jon]
------------------------------------

Binaries and sources for all possilbe software for 386bsd MUST BE INCLUDED.
Only then should you consider making a NICER distribution. 
	One of the nicer things will be unpacked binaries to allow novices
to work immediately given only a boot floppy. It only takes 60Mbyte to have
XFree86 and 386bsd networked OS, with all development tools, even olwm libs.
 
------------------------------------

$30-$40 is exactly what I was thinking as a reasonable start-up price. 
$75 (current price from one company) isn't worth it for `free' software.

idea of bootable cdrom recently posted to c.u.bsd by julian E. is intriguing.
thank you for making this effort.

------------------------------------

do it!!!

------------------------------------

I'd really like to see this happen, maybe even as a linux/386BSD cooperative
effort as someone(s) have mentioned.  I probably will not be able to get
386BSD running at home without such a distribution, so I'm the sort of
person who would be most helped by such a project. 

------------------------------------

Hmm, I wonder if my last message prompted this survey...  I do think a
cdrom is a very good idea.  Using it to save hard drive space is quite
important to me so it must contain unpacked sources in a usable form
(this requires having file names outwith the ISO9660 standard.

I think you should seriously consider having Linux sources and binaries
on the disk as well, as this would probably double the customers and
most of the sources (GNU, TeX, and most of XFree86) are the same.  Of
course it would probably square the amount of work needed in getting
together a useful distribution

I think it should be the case that people can buy this CD and easily
boot up 386bsd (or linux).  This requires boot floppy images on the
disk in an accessible place from MSDOS and rawwrite.exe or similar to
put them on floppy (or even an MSDOS program that allows booting an
image directly off the CD).  Then from there you can mount the CD and
unpack the rest.  This would require fairly careful planning but it
would make it worthwhile.

As regards CD prices.  I bought the Infomagic CD for 75$ so I don't
think it unreasonable to charge 50$ for a complete operating system even
if it is free.  

------------------------------------

it would be nice to be able to boot from the cdrom and install from it.

------------------------------------

Make the distribution a self-supported environment for 386BSD development.
Don't include alot of unrelated netstuff like the dictionary, gifs, etc -
there are many other inexpensive sources of these around, and the extra
effort involved in acquistion and maintenence might impact the primary
goal: current 386BSD sources.

BTW:  not all of us with CDROMs have 300+MB disks to store sources and
binaries.  A natural CDROM-based build tree would be great - for that
matter, even prebuilt objects, libraries and binaries could be on the
disk.  That way, a simple sparse tree could be organized with minimal
impact on disk space or (re)build time.

| I'm thinking of doing it under the auspices of a not-for-profit
| corporation, so that we wouldn't be taxed on the distribution charges.
| Any profits realized would be used to make future distributions
| cheaper and better.  In any case, I would like to do this thing as
| cheaply as possible, to help get 386bsd out to the masses.

*** Bravo!  However, I don't have a problem with you making a little money
*** from the distributions - this is hard work.  If you realized $5 a disk,
*** you should do quite well.  I understand it takes only a few dollars to
*** cut disks once the equipment and procedures are in place.

*** BTW, at this point, I'd even pay $60 for a complete 386BSD (sources
*** and binaries).

------------------------------------

The problem with this is that there are no device drivers for all the
different CD-ROM controllers (except SCSI controllers).
I don't know how you will want to cope with those ?
It's not a problem for me (I have a 1742A) but it might be for others.
Most of the people will buy a low-price CD-ROM drive and there is no
support for those. In addition all the sound boards (appearing daily on the
market) with, again, proprietary CD-ROM interfaces.
How about shipping to Europe (sorry, no credit-card, e.g.) ?
One last comment: How about saving the environment ? Can you recycle CD-ROMs ?
They are obsolete (almost) after three days of pressing them, right ?
That's what happens with books for software and programs, as well.

------------------------------------
$40 is cheap. But, there is a *big* problem with falling behind on
updates and getting bug fixes. Could you make a new disc every three to
four months?

        [x]    If you make the pricing as confusing as possible, you'll
               lose sales. CDs can hold a *lot* of software and you'll
               soon lose to the $40-$60 Cds that have 386BSD, Linux,
               comp.sources.unix, the entire GNU and X Window System
               sources, etc.


1. Frequent updates are a must; the software must be up to date.
2. You will eventually have a lot of competition.
3. Keep the pricing simple; confusing sends people to your competitiors.
4. Focus on ease of installing, not just your CD-ROM, but *all*
of 386BSD.

------------------------------------

See above :-)

------------------------------------

I think a Jolitz contribution should be included in the cd-rom price.
That way it will be tax deductible.
 
------------------------------------

I think the best things to go on CD-ROM are those bits and pieces which are
relatively stable, and not being constantly revised.  386BSD largely falls
into this category, as the main changes are going on in the i386/isa bits of
the kernel.  X386 (including all the MIT X11R5 stuff) and tex are also very
stable.

GNU software, on the other hand, is being quite frequently revised.  e.g. I'd
see little use in having gcc 2.3.1 on the disk since it'd be out-of-date
very quickly.  But if you've got free space...

------------------------------------

Include unofficial directory

------------------------------------

The main thing we need to do is provide a stable version of 386BSD
with a clearly written online manual for beginners.  The release
should include X windows and ave an automated setup program which
creates a new user, gives him or her an optional password, and
optionally configures X.  CDROM is the best way to do this due to the
size of 386BSD.

I have spent many many hours downloading 386BSD and getting it
running.  That went pretty well, given the horrible state of Unix
documentation.  I am NOT criticizing the man command, which is a great
idea and works as a reference tool -- but not as a 'user guide'.  The
closest thing Unix has to a reference guide are the Berkeley tutorials
and a couple of excellant but terse books.  I still run as root
because I don't know how to add myself as a user.  That is ridiculous.
Listen, I am not a begineer at computers.  I've been a Unix user since
Version 5 at Berkeley in 1975.  I've hacked GNU Emacs internals, I've
written foreign function calls to sockets code from Lisp, I've been to
the moon.  But I am NOT a Unix sysadmin and DON'T WANT TO BE ONE.  IS
ANY ONE LISTENING TO ME?  (large smiley face goes here).

ALL my attempts to get X up have met with doom.  However, I just
recently learned what 'recompiling a kernel' means and, kind of, how
to do it.  It's a truely trivial procedure!  Too bad it's taken me two
months of on again off again guess work in my spare time to get to
this point.  Horrible as it is to say, MS-DOG and WINDOZE are WAY WAY
better at helping the user get the damn things up and running and
helping them once they're there.  Why can't the devastingly large and
wonderful world Unix community do the same for installation procedures
and online help that they have for cc, make, grep, and rogue?  I mean,
a new Unix user must be TOTALLY intimiidated by this system!

I'm trying to do my part.  I'm taking notes and, someday, when I
actually have a windowd 386bsd reliably running on my 386, I will
write up my notes, I will send money to the Jolitz', and I will help
push 386bsd more into the world.  But not until then.

Note, I love Unix and the 386bsd idea.  Don't get me wrong.

------------------------------------

Please do this!

------------------------------------

Mind? I don't have no steenkin' mind! :-)

Good luck.

------------------------------------

I like your idea.  Please set up a distribution point in Germany or somewhere
else in Europe before you start shipping.  It is much more economical to ship
100 CDs via a commercial carrier than to mail them separately.  Also, many 
people shy away from getting stuff from the US since there is no reasonable 
way of getting your money back if anything goes wrong. 

I could distribute the CD in Germany if you like.  I would need about DM 10
= $6.50 per CD at a first guess.  I'm not sure about your pricing scheme but
	can't really come up with something better.

------------------------------------

I can just about afford a CD-ROM drive, help convince me I should
afford one.  Unpacked directory structure is an absolute must, symbolic
links to obj directories on a real disk, so I don't have to find lots more
money for another disk.

------------------------------------

Note that my drive is a Panasonic drive with the Creative labs->soundblaster
interface. My interest depends critically upon someone coming up with a 
driver for it!

On re-reading, I think you have left out the option I'd like to see.
I'd like to see it as a DOS readable distribution, everything compressed. 
Largely for archive purposes. (Obviously I don't want rawrite.* and *.fs
compressed! (Nor mount for that matter - NFS mounting is undoubtedly a 
useful installation mechanism for many people, especially if the CD is placed
in a CD server remote to the user.

------------------------------------

	I think this is good idea, and I believe many people do.
	I want to send my donation to Jolitz's by getting this CD-ROM.

------------------------------------

I find the idea of CD-ROM distibution superb ! I'd be willing to spend
  even more than $40 on the first disk.

  Carry on !

------------------------------------

I think it would be a great thing. I am planning to get myself a CDROMplayer
sometime this spring (to bad I have sold my AHA1542 :-( and bought an IDE
controller )
To include 20-30 $ contribution to the Jolitz also seems like an excellent
idea. But make the standard price include the contribution and let it be
optional to NOT pay the contribution.
If made the other way around, i.e. make standard prize not include contribution
and make contibution optional would make a lot of people to ignore to pay
it.

Otherwise, I think anything below $100 is dirt cheap for this quality software.
(In sweden $100 is what I pay for 4 Music CDs. :-( )

-- 
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.
Jon Cargille		jcargill@cs.wisc.edu
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