HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Priest shortage
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 21:55:27 CST
Organization: Minas Tirith BBS (Public Access Usenet for New Orleans)

Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET> writes:

> In article <1992Nov18.193138.2329@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov>, bobv@spike.Jpl.Nasa.Go
> (Bob von Buelow) says:
> >
> << Stuff deleted>>
> >
> >BTW, since Episcopal orders are valid, but illicit per Rome, I would be
> >interested in seeing a definitive statement from Rome that declares
> >female Episcopal orders invalid.  Without that I would not be able to
> >accept the 'invalid material' argument.
> <<More stuff deleted>>
> >--
> >Bob von Buelow             Mars Observer Planning and Sequencing Element
> >bobv@spike.jpl.nasa.gov          - standard disclaimers apply -
>
> "In the judgement of the Catholic Church, declared by Leo XIII in the
> bull _Apostolicas Curae_ of 1896, 'ordinations performed according to
> the Anglican rite have been and are completely null and void.'" --
> NEW CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA v.1, p.525
> -------
> Marty Helgesen
> Bitnet: mnhcc@cunyvm   Internet: mnhcc@cunyvm.cuny.edu
>
> "Just say know to Gnosticism"

Hmmm...if this is the case, why have Anglican priests been accepted into the
Roman Rite without being re-ordained?



|Edward J. Branley         elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us|
|Seashell Software, Metairie, LA            +1-504-455-5087|
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: dschenke@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Dennis L Schenkel)
Subject: Re: Divinity of Christ...Creation Theology
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 21:14:07 GMT

In article <01GRDO8CP35C8Y6TUF@umassd.edu> Liz Moreau <EMOREAU@UMASSD.EDU> writ
es:
>>Question: I have not read the bible looking for this particular issue, but
>>I am curious: does the bible specifically say that God is not a woman, or
>>does it merely refer to God as a man?
>
>Andrew:  I'm at work and don't have my Bible with me, so I can't cite
>specific verses.  Why I believe that God is a He and not She  .....
>many places in the Bible God is referred to as He and I believe when
>the 'Our Father' is being taught to the apostles, it starts with 'Our
>Father.'
>
>Maybe someone who has an online Bible can help out here.
>
I too do not have my Bible handy, but I happen to know off hand that there are 
a few places in Scripture in which God is personified in the feminine.  The 
book of Wisdom refers to God as feminine in several passages, but I can't think
of any off hand.

Having taught religion to 8th graders at a Catholic School, I seem to remember 
some information in the text book that dealt with this.  They indicated that 
the Church teaches that because humans are created in God's image, then God 
must have an inclusive gender of some kind.

Of course all references to God as he or she are attempts to personify what we 
cannot comprehend.  God is beyond our understanding, since we understand and 
know via human language, with all the limitations and cultural trappings that 
come with language.

Most of the Bible refers to God as male, by an accident of cultural 
circumstances and the limitations of human language.  But the existence of 
feminine references within Scripture to the Divine One make it clear that God 
is much more than just male or just female.  These words don't even begin to 
address the greatness and glory that is God!

To God be honor and glory and praise forever, age upon age, world upon world, 
amen!
-- 
Dennis Schenkel, Graduate Student    *****************************************
Ohio State University, English Dept  * Pax Christi Vobiscum...  from one of  *
dschenke@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu   * those who "...wait in joyful hope..." *
    --My opinions are mine--         *****************************************
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: bdboyle@erenj.com (Bryan D. Boyle)
Subject: Re: Pastoral letter
Organization: Exxon Research and Engineering Co., NJ
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 13:46:09 GMT

In article <9211180833.AA12991@pegasus.com> Len Howard <tas@PEGASUS.COM> writes:
>Ted, How long do you think it will be before the American Catholic
>Church splits off from Rome?......

In some major respects, it already has, IMHO.  


..Just a thought for consideration.
>The ordination of women and stand on birth control are two areas of
>great disagreement.  I would not be at all surprised to see this split
>take place in my lifetime.  And I am 59 now.
>Shalom,                        Len Howard OSL
>                               tas@pegasus.com
From: 2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA (andy)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: "Feminazis" and the "abortion holocaust"
Date: 23 Nov 92 02:10:52 GMT
Organization: Queen's University at Kingston

In article <00963E39.B1CA94E0.23217@swdev.si.com>, tillman@SWDEV.SI.COM (Brian
Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support, says:
>
>ted frank asks:
>
>>Are you saying millions of Catholics "chose" to be
>>insulted by Sinead O'Connor's actions?  And that her actions had no
>>insulting value in and of themselves?
>
>I'm saying that how you react to others _attempted_ insults is totally up to
>you. You can choose to give that person satisfaction by being insulted or you
>can ignore it as the childish attempt it is.  So, yes, the millions of        s
>Catholic
>who were insulted chose to be so.
>
So the fault of the insult lies not with O'Conner but with Roman Catholics,
how interesting. Sounds like blaming the victim to me.

>-----------------------------+--------------------------------
> Brian Tillman               | Internet: tillman@swdev.si.com
> Smiths Industries, Inc.     |           tillman_brian@si.com
> 4141 Eastern Ave., MS129    | Hey, I said this stuff myself.
> Grand Rapids, MI 49518-8727 | My company has no part in it.
>-----------------------------+--------------------------------
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1992 17:58:10 -0500
From:         mayo@CS.UTK.EDU
Subject:      "One Bread, One Body", Nov. 26

                    Thursday, November 26, 1992
                       Thanksgiving Day, USA

Revelation 18:1-2, 21-23; 19:1-3, 9           Luke 21:20-28
                          Psalm 100

                        STRESSED OUT?

"On the earth, nations will be in anguish, distraught at the roaring of the
sea and the waves." --Luke 21:25

The stress will be so great at the end of the world that "men will die of
fright in anticipation of what is coming upon the earth" (Lk 21:26).  This
may mean that many people will die of heart attacks and other stress-related
conditions.  We live in very stress related times now, but the Bible says it's
going to get worse.

Those who have a personal and totally committed relationship with Christ will
thrive in these times of stress.  They will stand up straight, raise their
heads high, and joyfully anticipate Jesus' final coming (Lk 21:28).  While
others are being stressed out, Jesus' disciples will sing "Alleluia!"
(Rv 19:1,3)  They will be gloriously happy because they "have been invited to
the wedding feast of the Lamb" (Rv 19:9).  They will soon be caught up "in the
clouds to meet the Lord in the air" (I Thes 4:17).  They will see Jesus face
to face (I Cor 13:12) and live with Him forever in the perfect happiness of
heaven.

Look around the table on this Thanksgiving Day.  After the end of the world and
Jesus' final coming, will each member of your family be in heaven for the
everlasting family reunion?  Will some be stressed out and left out of heaven
forever?  On this Thanksgiving Day, share your faith with your family.  Prepare
for Christ's final coming.


Prayer:  Jesus, may I love You so much as to eliminate stress from my life.

Promise: "Your ransom is near at hand."  Lk 21:28

Praise:  Alleluia!  Salvation, glory and might belong to our God, for His
         judgments are true and just!"  (Rv 19:1-2)
-----
From "One Bread, One Body", reproduced with permission.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic,soc.culture.jewish
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Re: "Feminazism" and the "abortion holocaust"
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 23:28:37 GMT

In article <921119143753.2020419b@MARY.FORDHAM.EDU> STRZEMECKI@MARY.FORDHAM.EDU writes:
>I would like to shortly address two opinions that appeared recently in
>postings on "feminazism".
>
>Ted Frank <thf2@ELLIS.UCHICAGO.EDU> writes:
>
>- The Holocaust was unique in world history.  Ethnic wars had been
>- fought in the past, but often over land, over religion, over money,
>- over some ideology.  Never before, and never since, was the sole
>- purpose of a war on an ethnic people to eradicate them from the
>- planet.
>
>If WWII had the "sole" purpose, it was definitely not the eradication
>of Jews. The decision about the eradication of Jews was taken by the
>highest officials of the Third Reich only at the beginning of 1943.

First of all, "war on ethnic people" does not mean "World War II."  It
refers to what became to be known as "the Final Solution."  The revealed
preference of Nazi leaders shows that they were more interested in searching
out and killing Jews than, say, territorial gains, or protecting German
soldiers on the Eastern front.

As for the decision-making process, one may wish to read "Mein Kampf."
-- 
ted frank                     | thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu 
standard disclaimers          | void where prohibited
the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637
X-Vmsmail-To: SMTP%"CATHOLIC@AMERICAN.EDU"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Tue, 17 Nov 1992 09:53:09 -0500
From:         URSIC@BEAST.CS.HH.AB.COM
Subject:      Re: polls and women priests

Steve C.
The only "assumption" I am making is that the tradition of the all-male
priesthood was fine for the people of the Church for the last 2000 years.
It is increasingly not becoming fine for the people of the Church, today.
Some like to call it a "Sacred Tradition" and elevate it to the level of
a Sacrement. If the Church were to relax its rules on the ordination of
women, then the sacrement celibrated by them would indeed be licit. Your
"logical conclusions" vanish if we conclude that the "Magisterium" was right
in denying women ordination prior to today, and is right, again, in allowing
ordination to all "called" persons today. Maybe it's the "logic" that
extrapolates,"Well the first 12 called happened to be males, so the next
________(fill in big number) called must also be males." What I hear people
saying in greater proportion is "Your number's up:-)". -J.J.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
Subject: Scribes and Pharisees
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 17:18:40 GMT

>>> >This is what I do believe: Jesus was a thinker, a critic of the Judeaism
>>> >of his contemporaries, and one of many people of his day with followers
>>> >(disciples) who thought he was the messiah.
>>>
>>> What is your source for these beliefs about Jesus, i.e. how have you come
>>> to learn and believe them?
>>
>>The Bible.  He chastised Pharisees for being so rule-based.

   Are you so sure about this?  Matthew 23 is probably the most famous
of Jesus' discourses against the Scribes and Pharisees.  If one pays
attention while reading it, however, one will see that He does not
chastise them for "being so rule-based," but rather for hypocrisy:
they do not practice what they preach.  Does Jesus say, "Pay no
attention to them, for they are corrupt?"  No, of course not.  He
says, "Do not do as they do, for they are corrupt; but do as they say,
for they sit in the seat of Moses."

  Some people like to refer to someone as "pharisaic" for merely
upholding rules.  To do so is inaccurate, and frankly, cliche`ed.

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
From: jocallag@bach.helios.nd.edu (john ocallaghan)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Reply from NBC re: Sinead O'Connor
Date: 16 Nov 92 22:20:07 GMT
Organization: OUC, University of Notre Dame

In article <BxtwBq.Fz4@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps) writes:
>   I did happen to see SNL the next week, when Joe Pesci held the
>picture up for the camera.  It had been taped back together, and this
>brought applause from the audience.

I didn't see Pesci hold up the picture.  I did see her tantrum and was
shocked.  At the time I conceived of what I thought would be a particularly
good response for SNL.  I thought that the following week they should run
a split screen video.  On one side of the screen is Sinead singing her
song and tearing up the picture; on the other side of the screen simultaneously
is playing the video from when the Pope visited his would be assasin in
prison, embraced him, placed his head near his and comforted him. Nuff said.
Lest anyone say that SNL is a comedy show, and this would be inappropriated,
I seem to recall that when Anwar Sadat was assassinated, they ran a
particularly moving reenactment of the assassination, that ended with
a dove lying on the pavement with a bullet hole through its breast.
Peace,
John
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1992 11:04:13 EST
From:         "Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support,
              x8425" <tillman@SWDEV.SI.COM>
Subject:      What *is* this word?

I keep seeing the word "egregarious" in messages posted here.  What the heck is
this word?  I know what "gregarious" means (habitially associating with others,
as in flocks or herds or enjoying or seeking others; social) and I know what
"egregious" means (conspicuously bad; glaring; flagrant) but I've yet to find a
dictionary containing "egregarious."  I suspect the people who use it actualy
mean "egregious."

-----------------------------+--------------------------------
 Brian Tillman               | Internet: tillman@swdev.si.com
 Smiths Industries, Inc.     |           tillman_brian@si.com
 4141 Eastern Ave., MS129    | Hey, I said this stuff myself.
 Grand Rapids, MI 49518-8727 | My company has no part in it.
-----------------------------+--------------------------------
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.0.4 1/31/90)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 10:23:10 HST
From:         Len Howard <tas@PEGASUS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Pastoral letter
              Pastoral letter" (Nov 18,  9:18am)

Ed, I think the two issues of birth control and ordination of women
are only the tip of the iceburg.  You state the real problem yourself
when you say "Most American Catholics simply ignore the Vatican on
this one."  How much more 'ignoring' is it going to take before the
American Catholic Church gets fed up with trying to follow
pronouncements from a body that is not listening to what the Body of
Christ is saying.  And the lack of priests is going to push the issue.

Shalom,                                 Len Howard OSL
                                        tas@pegasus.com
From: elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Reply from NBC re: Sinead O'Connor
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 92 07:41:12 CST
Organization: Minas Tirith BBS (Public Access Usenet for New Orleans)

"Gordon C. Zaft" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG> writes:

[NBC letter deleted]

>
>         Comment-- not exactly an apology.  I did read in OSV, though,
> that the president of NBC did write a letter of apology to Archbishop
> Pilarczyk (president of the NCCB).  He *should* have written one to the
> Pope.
>
> GZ
>

I think the letter was a well-written one, and the explanation that they don't
use a 7-second delay (common in the talk-radio world) really says it all.

Frankly, I don't think that NBC owes anyone an apology for a stunt that was out
of their control.  They didn't expect Skinhead to do anything but sing her
song, and that was that.  Of course, if they let her back on the show, that's
another story...



|Edward J. Branley         elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us|
|Seashell Software, Metairie, LA            +1-504-455-5087|
From: ABDWINIG@IDBSU.IDBSU.EDU (Brent Winiger)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Reply from NBC re: Sinead O'Connor
Date: 17 Nov 92 01:51:23 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
              16 Nov 1992 18:08:34 -0700 from <awerling@NMSU.EDU>

On Mon, 16 Nov 1992 18:08:34 -0700 WERLING said:
>
>There should be more free language on network television.  Nudity too.
>Though I'd like to see less violence.
>
I suspect you wrote that just to get a reaction.  But let me bite on it anyway.
You can see all the nudity you want on cable, porn magazines, etc.  You can
also hear all the free language you want on cable and even top 40 radio
stations. (Man I still can't believe what they are allowing!)  Network TV is
one of the last, (but quickly disappearing) bastions where some measure of
constraint is exercised.  Many millions of us are parents who are
concerned about the effect that smut and filthy language have upon our
children.  If these last measures of constraint are removed, our TV goes out
to the garbage.  Now pardon me for being defensive Andrew, but your proposal
seems like one more example of liberal ideology trampling the few remaining
privileges we traditionalists have.  (The privilege of being able to
watch network TV without having our moral sensibilities raped.)
    Sorry I sound a bit defensive.  Its probably a reaction to events of the
last week in our area.  We saw a lawsuit filed by the ACLU to remove a granite
copy of the Ten Commandments that had been on the Courthouse lawn for decades.
The suit was filed in a relatively small town in our state.  The town says
they will have to comply since they don't have the money to fight the ACLU in
Court.   We saw public school teachers bringing in lesbian speakers to a class
on parenting.  The talk ended up being more a promotion for the gay lifestyle
than on parenting.  The teachers were suspended for two days because of parent
complaints, but the education association has rallied behind the teachers and
their actions, proclaiming that alternative lifestyles study is necessary, and
claiming that educational freedom takes precedence over antiquated moral
values.  The Board that gave the two day suspension has been hit with a no
confidence vote from the teachers and will probably be facing recall elections.
     We've also got pending lawsuits against a couple of small school
districts by the ACLU for trying to continue their long-standing tradition
of short, generic prayers at graduation ceremonies.  These districts can't
fight it, since they don't have the money.  Even though the communities
are highly religious, one student is able to trample on the privileges of 99%
of the students in the schools because the liberal ACLU has more money.
     If the ACLU and liberal ideology groups have it as a goal to wipe out
every last reference to God and traditional values, they are certainly being
very effective in implementing their plans to achieve that goal.  Its too bad
so many Catholics and other Christians are supporting their plans.

>Andrew Werling on Planet Yip  awerling@dante.nmsu.edu  yip@acca.nmsu.edu

Brent
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X-VMS-To: IN%"CATHOLIC%AUVM.BITNET@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1992 09:59:00 EST
Comments:     A VAX cluster with VMS V5.5, PMDF V4.0-22, JNET V3.5 & UCX V1.3A
From:         Liz Moreau <EMOREAU@UMASSD.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Divinity of Christ...Creation Theology

Dennis:

This is the kind of stuff we get at our Newman Center.  It has been
going on for a few years now.  Many of us stopped going and we now
have our own Bible Study Group.

This wasn't just one person spouting New Age doctrines.  The Newman
Center is ran by a Catholic priest, a Catholic nun and an Episcopalian
woman minister (God is she and so forth>.

False doctrine has been repeatedly taught at Bible Studies, Lectures,
and one-on-one meetings.

My concern is students who do not know better and get misled by this
drivel.

Sorry to see that it is happending elsewhere also.

                                                Liz Moreau
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: J.Theodore.Schuerzinger@dartmouth.edu (J. Theodore Schuerzinger)
Subject: Re: Reply from NBC re: Sinead O'Connor
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0a5@newshost.dartmouth.edu
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
 <D890TB4w165w@mintir.new-orleans.la.us>
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1992 18:22:50 GMT

But 'Saturday Night Live' DID use a 7-second delay (or was it five
seconds?) a few years back when Eddie Murphy was the guest host. 
Apparently they were afraid he might use some foul language.  Why can't
they do that every week?

--Ted Schuerzinger
email: .zed@Dartmouth.EDU
From: hwt@bcarh11a.BNR.CA (Henry Troup)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Communion elements (was Re: Women's ordination yet again *sigh*)
Date: 17 Nov 92 15:05:03 GMT
Reply-To: Henry.Troup@BNR.CA
Distribution: world
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa, Canada

In article <BxGIoJ.EBH@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>,
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps) writes:
|>of telling God, "You _will_ change these pretzels and beer..."  This
|>is the kind of assertion that people of my mind cannot accept.

The rubrics of the Anglican prayer book (Scottish, 1928 revision)
clearly state that where beer is the drink ofthe people, it is
acceptable in the Eucharist.  Of course, we're all heathern heretics,
anyway :-)  Ever hear of the Free Church of Scotland?  They use whiskey
in the cup.  Of course, they don't heat the church and kneel on stone floors.
                               
Henry Troup - H.Troup@BNR.CA (Canada) - BNR owns but does not share my opinions
	     Only eleven more shopping days 'till St. Andrew's Day!
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1992 09:43:20 EST
From:         "Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support,
              x8425" <tillman@SWDEV.SI.COM>
Subject:      Re: Reply from NBC re: Sinead O'Connor

Frank Lopez (FRANK@125LAW1.LAW.UCLA.EDU) writes:

>     The ACLU is not a sympathetic group.  They don't care what the
>     majority wants.  They don't even care what the minority want!

I'm sorry you feel this way.  While I may not agree with every action the ACLU
has taken (because it gores *my* ox), on the whole, I agree with the philosophy
I perceive in the ACLU by my reading of their actions.  We'll just have to
disagree.

-----------------------------+--------------------------------
 Brian Tillman               | Internet: tillman@swdev.si.com
 Smiths Industries, Inc.     |           tillman_brian@si.com
 4141 Eastern Ave., MS129    | Hey, I said this stuff myself.
 Grand Rapids, MI 49518-8727 | My company has no part in it.
-----------------------------+--------------------------------
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 14:29:24 -0500
From:         Amanda Walker <amanda@INTERCON.COM>
Subject:      Re: Priest shortage

bobv@spike.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Bob von Buelow) writes:
> BTW, since Episcopal orders are valid, but illicit per Rome, I would be
> interested in seeing a definitive statement from Rome that declares
> female Episcopal orders invalid.  Without that I would not be able to
> accept the 'invalid material' argument.

Actually, the treatment of Anglican orders is somewhat inconsistent.  More
interesting to me is the case of Old Catholic women priests, since Rome has
affirmed that the Apostolic Succession is indeed preserved in the churces
that split off after Vatican I (the Utrecht Succession), and considers Old
Catholic orders to be completely valid (and treated in much the same way as
Orthodox orders).


Peace,

Amanda Walker