From: alan@km4ba.uucp (Alan Barrow)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: Bayliner myths: a challenge
Date: 4 Sep 92 05:51:47 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: km4ba's packet radio gateway

In <9209031326.AA28007@fozzie.nrl.navy.mil> zielke@FOZZIE.NRL.NAVY.MIL (David Zielke) writes:

>As a sailor having worked with foam, balsa, and plywood decks which have
>been encapsulated in glass I would make a couple of observations.  

>First: cored decks are often done as a weight saving process more than a
>money saving process.  While this might not be the case for inexpensive
>boats, it would mean that cored decks would go away on expensive boats and
>they do not.

Nothing wrong with cored decks. In fact, I do not know of a lighter, stronger
way to make a deck. However, the deck material is the issue. I have seen:

     1) non marine plywood (Usually no encapsulated. Carpet glued down)

     2) marine plywood (Again not encapsulated until recently)

     3) Balsa core- Strong when encapsulated, but still gets "soft" over
        time. Remember, gelcoat/fiberglass is not waterproof! Even with
        no cracks, moisture still is absorbed over time. Maverick stopped
        using balsa core around the late '70's for this reason. 5-10 yr
        old boats that looked ok otherwise were getting spongey decks. As
        the decks and gunwhales were very structural in nature, this is 
        a concern. Holes in the glass just accelerate the process. (like
        your cleat example)

     4) Closed cell rigid foam- (Kelge cell and Diviney cell) Much better.
        Moisture will not weaken it, and it is almost as light as balsa core.
        used in the better boats for decks and transoms.

>Second: I find that the primary reason for decks getting soft is improper
>maintance.  I just helped a friend of mine rebuild the fordeck on an Irwin
>28 because some bozo in the boats history had installed a couple of cleats
>on the fordeck with no calk at all!!!  Deck hardware must be rebedded 
>periodically, especially those which take high loads which change direction.

See above note on balsa core. Plywood is worse yet.

>I would hazzard to guess that minor crazing or hairline cracks don't go all
>the way into the core in most cases are not the primary cause of deck rot.

See above note on osmosis and moisture. Water will get in regardless. Cracks
just accelerate this process. This is how gelcoat gets bubbles as well.

Decks at least can be replaced. When shopping for a boat, nearly all used
encapsulated (sometimes non-marine) timber for stringers. replacing
rotten/broken stringers is a common saltwater boat repair. This is 
where your bilge problems will come to haunt you. (Again osmosis)

The boat I selected has stringers made of fiberglass box beams. (Again, 
hand laid and squeegee'd) No chance of rot. (Nor breakage to my knowledge)
Not elitist, just common sense. 

I started out trying to buy a used fish & ski for around $3-4k. Many I looked
at had soggy carpet, and if you peeled a corner up you could see the plywood
starting to delaminate. How many people do you know that have had to 
replace the plywood in their typical fold down ski boat seats? I bet
I know 15-20!

Forget the Bayliner bashing, I am talking about basic boat construction
and how a cheap boat is false economy. Hidden wood is a bad idea as far as
I can tell. At least a classic wooden hulled boat owner can see what is going
on. Plus, removal from water presents problems for them as well.

It helps to understand when you see how the boats are made. If I was
going to make a serious investment, I would want to know as much as I 
could. There are some obvious "maytag" type companies around, and their
boats retain their value. The local whaler dealer almost never has 
boats in for hull work, yet has one of the best outboard shops around. 
Many whalers get re-engined 2-3 times over a period of years. And
whalers are not considered by all to be the absolute best.... though
they seem to be pretty good. 

Oh well, Let's defocus from bayliners, as we are starting to all get
defensive. There is a wide range of quality and expense. I guess we
have to pick something we are comfortable with!

I am going fishing!


 Alan Barrow  km4ba | I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack
 jab@               | ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched
 hpuerca.atl.hp.com | C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate.
 ..!gatech!kd4nc!   | All those moments will be lost in time -
         km4ba!alan | like tears in rain. Time to die.          Roy Batty
Newsgroups: rec.boats