From: visser@convex.com (Lance Visser)
Subject: Re: A R G I C : please help me shut it up!
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 19:27:47 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In <92350.182941U54753@uicvm.uic.edu> <U54753@uicvm.uic.edu> writes:

+>>        Nobody is sure if there is a "zuma" or not.  The way these
+>>things are being posted "in theory" is:
+>>


+>You dont have to worry about "zuma"  ......... you are a shit

+>head, why dont you face the facts, or response with good logic

+>or statistics(sp)......

	Because it does no good.  He will just post the same WRONG
material over and over again.  He will not answer the criticism
of his materials, the questions raised by his selective quoting 
of materials or his misrepresentation of the opinions of the 
scholars he quotes.

	He is a coward and is so certain of his materials that he 
has to hide both his real name and his real site.  

	If you wish to stand in for Argic the coward and answer questions
about his sources he dares not answer, then please respond to the following
which Argic has kept silent about:


*****************************************
From: sechrest@dip.eecs.umich.edu (Stuart Sechrest)

	[Justin McCarthy is one of Argic's primary sources]


Mr Argic,

Please get your numbers straight with your sources.  You have stated that
`` As for the numbers, I do have a copy of a demographic history on the
question of the numbers which was published by . . .  Prof. Justin McCarthy.''

McCarthy, J., "Muslims and Minorities, The Population of Ottoman
     Anatolia and the End of the Empire," New York University Press,
     New York, 1983, pp. 133-144.

Please review the figures in the book, particularly Table 7.10.  You will
find that the figure he gives for the population loss in the six eastern
provinces is 1,040,376, not 2.5 million.  The latter is population loss for
Turkey as a whole.  How the Armenian dictatorship managed to ``murder''
more than 750,000 Muslims in Aydin and Konyai (wetern and southern Anatolia)
is an interesting question of military tactics.  You also seem to ignore the
McCarthy's estimates of deaths of Armenians (Table 7.7) and Greeks (Table 7.8)

You might also want to explain your reaction to the following statement
by McCarthy (p. 137): ``...[I]t is an error to speak of Greek deaths, Muslim
deaths, or Armenian deaths as if each somehow had a separate existence.
To mention the sufferings of one group and avoid those of another gives
a false picture of what was a human, not simply an ethnic, disaster.''

(You might also want to update your citation above.  The section you want
is pp 133-139, on Muslim deaths.  Pp 140-144 which you cite are notes.
Why not throw in pp 121-130 on Armenian population losses and pp 130-133
on Greek population losses, as well?)

Other Readers,

The tables below indicate broadly the story according to McCarthy.
Approximately 18% of Anatolian muslims died. These included Turks
killed by Armenians, Turks killed by Greeks, Turks killed by Russians,
Turks killed by Kurds, Turks killed by disease, Turks killed by starvation,
Kurds killed by Armenians, Kurds killed by Russians, Kurds killed by
Turks, Kurds killed by disease, etc.  The population loss was general;
areas away from the front were ravaged by hunger and disease. While more
than 2.5 million died, some died in the east, some in the west.  The 1927
census showed a deficit (relative to women) of 830,000 men in the age
group 20-45, so a lot of military age men died.  The population loss in
the east amounted to more than a million people, including both the dead
and refugees.  Because of the large numbers of refugees, it is hard to
say exactly which people died.  For example, Erzurum lost 31% of it's
muslim population, while neighboring Trabzon lost only 4%.  This could mean
that refugees from Erzurum are disguising deaths in Trabzon.

Meanwhile, McCarthy estimates that 40% of Anatolian Armenians died
(including, of course, those who were killed by Turks, those killed by Kurds,
those killed by disease, those killed by starvation, etc.) and most of the
remainder made refugees.  McCarthy does not ignore Armenian deaths, although
some believe that he misestimates the prewar Armenian population, and
therefore derives a low estimate of Armenian deaths.  (McCarthy discusses
the sources of this disagreement in his Chapter 3.)

                                        --Stuart Sechrest

Muslim population losses (McCarthy's Tables 7.10 and 7.11)

Province        Estimated       Estimated       Proportion
                1912 pop.       pop. loss       lost
                                1912-1922
---------       ----------     ----------       ----------
Adana              573,256       42,511             7%
Ankara           1,263,199      104,823             8%
Aydin            1,734,179      333,230            19%
Biga               165,508       24,793            15%
Bitlis             408,703      169,748            42%
Diyarbakir         598,985      158,043            26%
Erzurum            804,388      248,695            31%
Haleb              562,197       50,838             9%
Huedavendigar    1,598,583      160,612            10%
Izmit              271,751       12,039             4%
Kastamonu        1,305,279      224,679            17%
Konya            1,542,331      418,442            27%
Mamuretuelaziz     564,164       89,310            16%
Sivas            1,196,300      180,413            15%
Trabon           1,178,655       49,907             4%
Van                313,322      194,167            62%
------------------------------------------------------------
Total           14,080,800    2,462,250            18%

Total for        3,885,862    1,040,376            27%
eastern provinces

Armenian population losses (Tables 7.1 and 7.7)

                Estimated       Estimated   Estimated   Estimated Proportion
                1912 pop.       1922 pop    dead        refugees  dead
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                1,465,148       70,000      584,268     810,000    40%