HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: marc@meadow.uucp (Marc Riehm)
Subject: Re: Denis Beauregard's hero?
Reply-To: marc@meadow.UUCP (Marc Riehm)
Organization: Amdahl Canada Ltd., Software Development Center
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 92 16:58:02 GMT

In article <9651@s3.ireq.hydro.qc.ca> beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard) writes:
[...]
>Take the 50 first players in Hall of Fame.  See the proportion
>of French Canadian right there.  I say French Canadian instead of
>Quebecois because they are easier to be find as their name
>is enough.  How much?  25, 30, 50 %  Indeed, they are a lot.
> 
>Now, take the names of divisions of NHL.  How many French names?
>None, you say?  But a lot of best players have a French name?
>Then, take the second class hockey players.  While the elite
>often has French name, the second class players are not.  As long
>as you are forced to take French speaking because they are the
>better players, NHL has no choice and select them.  But, when 
>they can be selective to complete the team, they are.
> 
>It is the same with Lionel Groulx.  Some fanatic decides to go
>thru every edition of Le Devoir and every book of Groulx to prove
>something.  Just an overview was not enough.  Looking the dailies
>in 1930, then in 1935, or on some monthes, was not enough.  Because
>the material for an anti-nationalistic thesis was not enough.
>Because in some circumstances, Groulx used some heavy wording.
[...]
>Sometimes, I would like to be better in sports.  It would give me
>some material for this posting.  Why are some athlets among the
>elite (topped in the best of the world) forced to expatriate to
>continue their art because their "so so national team" uses some
>stupid criteria to select who is on the team and those criteria
>are such that the best (coincidence, they speak French) cannot
>be accepted, or they have to move to Winnipeg far from the 
>French-speaking majority with which they feel better.  The stress
>of preparing for an international competition is not enough. that
>you must add the stress of moving in a not-so-friendly environment?
>Who is doing the competition?  The coach or the athlet?
[...]
>WE ARE A MINORITY either in Canada and in North America.  
>WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO ACT AS A MINORITY.  
>We want to keep alive the language of our fathers and mothers.  
>The immigrants have not that need.  AS A MINORITY, we do
>what we can to survive in a challenged world.
> 
>-- 
>Denis Beauregard        beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca

It's a good thing that I noticed another April Fool's posting on the net, or
else I might have taken this posting seriously!  Denis, it is nice to see
that you have a good sense of humour -- this is hilariously ridiculous!

--Marc Riehm.
From: robinc@bnr.ca (Robin Collins)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Separation?
Date: 10 Apr 92 16:01:02 GMT
Distribution: can
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa, Canada

In article <1992Apr7.082314.23749@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca> golchowy@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy) writes:
>In article <1992Apr6.152103.11849@pandora.matrox.com> thood@pluton.matrox.com (Thomas Hood) writes:
>>olin@reg.triumf.ca (ART OLIN, TRIUMF INET 128.189.128.2) writes:
>>
>>>Now suppose Quebec separated and gave all its residnt Canadians
>>>Quebec citizenship. On what possible grounds could their Canadian
>>>citizenship be revoked?
>>
>>Disloyalty to the Crown.


Sorry, but loyalty to the crown does not determine MY citizenship.
I denounce the crown at every opportunity.
I refuse to stand for the queen's anthem.
I advocate abolition of the monarchy. 

Does that make me a non-Canadian, even though I was born here,
and she doesn't even live here?


Frank.
Newsgroups: can.politics
From: heckman@kingcong.UWaterloo.ca (Gerald Heckman)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: O Canada, O Quebec  - reaction
Date: 10 Apr 92 16:17:13 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo

In article <9706@s3.ireq.hydro.qc.ca> beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard) writes:
>La photo photo montrant quelqu'un pietinant le drapeau du Canada
>en page couverture d'un livre a fait l'objet de controverse il
>y a quelques annees.  Je pense que c'est la meme.
>
>Ce qui est important ici est la provenance de la photo et
>l'identification de la personne pietinant effectivement le drapeau.
>
>Il semble, mais la je me fie uniquement a ma memoire, que la
>personne en question etait un activiste de la GRC/RCMP charge de discrediter
>les nationalistes quebecois.  Et qu'un trucage aurait eu le
>meme effet.

Oui c'est vrai ! Les adolescents qui brulaient des drapeaux a la 
St Jean de l'an passe sur les plaines d'Abraham etaient des agents de 
la GRC et les vieux gagas qui ont pietine le drapeau du Quebec en 1990 
etaient des ex-membres de la Surete du Quebec, qui bien sur, avaient rase 
leur moustaches. Ils ont quand meme ete decouverts parce qu'ils sont 
tous alles au Tim Horton's (~= Dunkin' Donuts) le plus proche apres 
l'evenement - question d'habitude quoi.

>    Denis Beauregard       _ _ _ _  Collecting Beauregard/Jarret/Jarest/Vincent

"Tout nous mene a Orr" - Journal de Montreal, Janvier 1989

Gerald P Heckman
Universite de Waterloo,
Waterloo, Ontario, Canada.
Newsgroups: can.politics
From: heckman@kingcong.UWaterloo.ca (Gerald Heckman)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Poids demographique
Date: 10 Apr 92 16:40:54 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo

In article <9707@s3.ireq.hydro.qc.ca> beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard) writes:

Une quantite exceptionnelle de statistiques tres savantes ...

... Et une conclusion

>Au moment ou le nombre d'immigrants est de l'ordre de grandeur de
>notre population en 1760, n'est-il pas normal de vouloir se proteger
>tant soit peu?

Accroissement de Population = Nombre de naissances - Nombre de deces
                              + Immigration - Emmigration
                                              ^^^^^^^^^^^

Pourrais-tu me dire combien d'anglophones ont emmigres depuis le
milieu des annees 70 ? Pourrais-tu me dire combien d'immigrants
arrivant au Quebec, emmigrent aussitot ailleurs au Canada ou aux
Etats-Unis ?

>  Denis Beauregard   _ _ _ _  Collecting Beauregard/Jarret/Jarest/Vincent

Gerald P Heckman
Universite de Waterloo,
Waterloo, Ontario, Canada.
Organization: Queen's University at Kingston
Date: Tuesday, 14 Apr 1992 10:26:00 EDT
From: <QPID@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: O Canada, O Quebec - reaction
 <1992Apr13.005631.8885@watserv1.waterloo.edu>
 <1992Apr13.134326.13629@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca>

A recent article in Maclean's spoke of Richler's book and the problems he prese
nted.  However, they also stressed how many english Canadians fell like their b
eing forced out of Quebec.  It seems with some of the language laws in Quebec,
and the dream of independence it has created an unpleasant and perhaps hostile
atmosphere for anglophones.  The restriction of having to go to english schools
 and to conduct business in french seems to be a violation of the CANADIAN Char
ter of Rights and Freedom.  I believe Quebec is trying to promote the french
culture but is in reality oppressing other cultures.


Anu Gupta
From: robinc@bnr.ca (Robin Collins)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: French in france
Date: 15 Apr 92 22:56:58 GMT
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa, Canada

In article <11479@std-2> audetf@Software.Mitel.COM (Francois Audet) writes:
>In article robinc@bnr.ca (Robin Collins) writes:
>-French in France in 1789?)
>
>Yes, the "again" was refering to the 50% non-francophone in 1789. I
>still don't believe this. I am still convince that most of these 50%
>were in fact speaking some sort of french dialect understandable by
>the ones who spoke "proper" french (as you say).
>
 I don't say Proper (I was quoting someone who did.)
Anyway, check it out. According to my source 50 percent spoke french
of some sort, 12% the standard french of the time.
That would suggest 50% non-french.



>-In fact, as I have pointed out before, Quebec french is closer to
>-early french (and thus in the view of purists, *MORE* french) than 
>-contemporary french in Paris. I dispute that too. 
>-
>-There is no such thing as MORE-linguistically pure. 
>-
>-Thus I have to question your expression *RICHEST*  french, after
>-you have criticized the idea of *PROPER* french. 
>-I had proper in quotes, but you don't seem to have richest in quotes.
>-How come?
>
>Because, at that time, it was richer. This was at the very beginning
>of the colony. Quebec City was composed of french people from all over
>France (although concentrated in a few major area): therefore the
>language was "enrichi" of the differents variation (mini-dialects) of
>french in France. This situation was unique, since at that time, the
>mobility of people (in this case, in France) was not very great.
>Of course, after a while, this importation of different french
>dialects stopped and the language evolved differently.


Linguists dispute the idea of richer, except in terms of abundance
of vocabulary. There is no such thing as one language with an equal
number of terms being richer than another language or dialect.


Frank.
From: rwood@superior.carleton.ca (Richard Wood)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Mulroney's Election
Date: 16 Apr 92 16:18:55 GMT
Organization: Carleton University, Ottawa, Canada


   Michel Gratton polished up his crystal ball yesterday, and looked into the
future of the Constitutional wrangle.  Here's what he saw (from the Ottawa Sun,
April 15).
   By June, Mulroney gets a deal with the 9 premiers that roughly resembles the 
Meech Lake thingey. It will include a commitment and timetable to negotiate a 
new distribution of powers with the provinces.
   Then he schedules what Gratton calls a pre-emptive strike against Quebec's
October referendum by scheduling a national 'double majority' referendum 
(majorities needed both inside and outside Quebec).  Mulroney will win it hands 
down of course.
   Now for the pie`ce-de-re'sistance (as we say in English);  with that victory
behind him, he is free to call an election, presenting himself as the best
candidate to complete the deal with Quebec.
   Gratton goes on to observe the 9 premiers are sounding more conciliatory 
these days, and the plan might just work.
   He's not the only one to predict Mulroney will call an election to cash in 
on the constitutional deal;   last October, Angus Reid (boss of the polling
firm) predicted much the same referendum-election senario.  The issue of
saving Canada is just made-to-order for Mulroney, a guaranteed win.  Another
five years as P.M.
   Have a happy Easter, folks!
--
Richard Wood  :  rwood@ccs.carleton.ca 
       Computing and Communications Services
               Carleton University, Ottawa, Canada K1S 5B6
From: warkent@ltisun9.epfl.ch (Ken Warkentyne)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Stephane et les noms...
Date: 6 Apr 92 08:24:14 GMT
	<1992Apr3.194527.9780@watserv1.waterloo.edu>
Organization: Ecole Polytechnique Federale de Lausanne---Laboratoire de
	Teleinformatique
In-reply-to: schamber@watserv1.waterloo.edu's message of 3 Apr 92 19:45:27 GMT

In article <1992Apr3.194527.9780@watserv1.waterloo.edu> schamber@watserv1.waterloo.edu (CHAMBERLAND S - BIOLOGY) wrote:
> En general, chez les franco-quebecois, il n'y a qu'un prenom. Pour tous les
> franco-quebecois je crois, l'usage de deux prenoms par la culture anglophone
> est curieux: "pourquoi deux prenoms si un seul est utilise?"...

C'est pire.  Parfois on a trois, voire quatre prenoms, et le premier
prenom n'est pas forcement celui que s'utilise.  D'habitude, l'idee
est de venerer quelques parents bien aimes, des saints, des personnages
historiques, etc.  La coutume est forte ancree en Angleterre et,je
crois, dans les autres parties de la Grande Bretagne ainsi que l'Irelande.
--
Ken Warkentyne - warkent@ltisun.epfl.ch
                 Laboratoire de Teleinformatique, EPFL, Suisse.
From: plante@IRO.UMontreal.CA (Frederic Plante)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Le Canada Malade de la politique symbolique ...
Date: 9 Apr 92 19:12:40 GMT
Reply-To: plante@IRO.UMontreal.CA (Frederic Plante)
Organization: Universite de Montreal


Bon, quelqu'un m'a fait remarquer que cette discussion tournait en rond.
Donc, je vais faire le gentleman... et me declarer GAGNANT! :-) :-)

A la prochaine chicane.

Frederic Plante
From: nadeau@bnr.ca (Rheal Nadeau)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: O Canada, O Quebec  - reaction
Date: 14 Apr 92 14:56:54 GMT
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa, Canada

In article <1992Apr13.194127.14902@watserv1.waterloo.edu> schamber@watserv1.waterloo.edu (CHAMBERLAND S - BIOLOGY) writes:
>In article <1992Apr13.134326.13629@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca> golchowy@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy) writes:
>>How...Quebec nationalists claim this...but how can a book which
>>comdemns intolerance and stupid unilingualist policies be used by
>>bigots?  
>
>In proving that Quebec is fundamentally bad, racist, antisemite, antidemo-
>cratic...
>
>Quebec has many ("defauts" in French????), but it's not THAT bad.
>Quebec is not only bad.

("Defauts" is "faults" or "defects")

Who believes Quebec is all bad?  Who believes that Quebec is
fundamentally racist, antidemocratic, etc?

I think most people realize that, when we discuss problems in Quebec,
we are discussing the more extreme situations.  Most people realize
that the average Quebecker is much like the average Canadian, with much
the same qualities and faults (only in French, hein?).

So why discuss these topics?  Well, first because Canada is constantly
being accused of intolerance against Quebec - so it seems fair to show
that there is intolerance everywhere.  And just as you don't want us to
judge Quebec by its more intolerant characteristics, I would hope you
don't judge Canada by its worst characteristics either.

Second, Quebeckers are asking for a lot of political power.  So, again,
it is legitimate to wonder how that power might be used.  Abuses in the
past and present are an indicator of what MIGHT come, if Quebec was to
gain these extra powers.  (Just because Quebec has decided it wants
these powers doesn't mean it should automatically get them.  There are
lots of things I could ask for, that I would really want and could
justify in hundreds of ways, that I know I will never have.  Should I
feel rejected, misunderstood?  Or are my claims less important than
those of a Quebecois?)

>Even Richler acknowledges that: he's still in Quebec, isn't he?

Yes - and as a Quebecois, he is free to criticize his province,
just as you are free to criticize what you don't like in Canada.
No one is asking for blind acceptance (though the nationalists
sound that way at times).

>Newspapers and chauvinists only use what suits them in such a book,
>to convey a biased image of Quebec.

As Quebec chauvinists see only what suits them, to convey a biased
image of Canada.  But many of us, on all sides, do try to get a
fuller picture.  And that means reading dissenting opinions and
evaluating them for ourselves.

The Rhealist (Rheal Nadeau)                 |  Bell-Northern Research
Internet:  nadeau@bnr.ca                    |  Ottawa, Ontario, Canada 
BNR neither endorses nor censors my views   |  (613) 763-4266
Newsgroups: can.politics
From: adrian@splunge.uucp (Adrian Ashley)
Subject: Re: Alberta Conservatives & Bilingualism
Organization: Ashley, Howland & Wood
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 01:15:12 GMT

schamber@watserv1.waterloo.edu (CHAMBERLAND S - BIOLOGY) writes:

>adrian@splunge.uucp (Adrian Ashley) writes:
>>>>Why on Earth should the Francophones be encouraged to keep their language
>>>>and culture alive, while others should not??  What's wrong with everyone
>>>>doing so?
>>>
>>>See above.
>>
>>Err, I saw above and still didn't get it.  Why, apart from sheer numbers,
>>should we treat French differently than other languages?

>Well, let's put it bluntly as a Quebec nationalist would do.
>"My ancestor, Simon Chamberland, came in "Nouvelle France" around the
>year 1677, long before it became "Canada". What about yours?", would
>say a nationalist.

>Many people agree that we have to help Native Indians to preserve their
>culture. (I agree also). They were there before all of us.
>And French-Quebeckers were there before English-rooted people.

Well, sure.  But people whose background is not Native, or French, or
English have also arrived over the years.  Why are their contributions
to Canadian society viewed as less important?  Why should we hold one,
or two, or any other arbitrary number of lingustic/cultural groups up
as more important than all others?

>English Canadians federalists are the one talking about the "two founding
>nationalities - or nations?" (even if it should be 3).

I don't believe they are right to do so.

>People who came in Canada had to merge themselves in the English-speaking
>society or the French-speaking society. That's, I think, what
>the "founders" wanted...

Who cares what the "founders" wanted?  Is it not what we Canadians want
now that matters?

>Do you get it now???   :-)

Well, I understand the argument now... (:

>P.S. Did I stated my opinions, aside from what I think was the "founders"'
>     past will?
>     NO.  So no need to throw rocks at me.
>     "Chat e'chaude' craint l'eau froide."

Don't take any of the above comments as "rocks" -- I'm just taking a
different view than the "founders".  Reply if you feel like it...
-- 
Adrian Ashley in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada  ||  adrian@splunge.uucp
"... Motif is very simple.  However, it is hard to see the simplicity because
 Motif is surrounded by a mass of complexity." --Motif book ad in comp.newprod
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: On Exaggeration
From: kmcvay@oneb.wimsey.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 92 07:09:26 GMT
Distribution: can
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac, Vancouver Island
Keywords: Lubicon
Summary: The Third-World's Oppressed may be in Northern Alberta.

In article <1992Mar31.234410.9741@kakwa.ucs.ualberta.ca> pierre@chaos.phys.ualberta.ca (Pierre Rouleau) writes:

>In article <29D863DB.5949@telly.on.ca> evan@telly.on.ca
>(Evan Leibovitch) writes:

>> On all sides, by many people ... etc.

>I gathered from your writings that genuine victims
>of oppression may find justifiable disgust at reading
>about three-times daily fed, First-World citizens
>complaining about language disputes using strong
>wording which should be exclusive to genuine
>victims of persecution, if only by basic respect.

The Lubicon Lake Cree, a tragic (and near-perfect) example of genuine
victims of oppression, wouldn't find disgust at such conversations -
if they ever saw them, which is unlikely. Their history has taught
them that little or nothing we have to say carries conviction or merit
anyway, so our conversational topics are simply not relevant to them.



-- 
------------------------------+ The Old Frog's Almanac - Vancouver Island  
If it WALKS like nazi trash   |  "ELIMINATED" by the BASSET CONSPIRACY!
and it TALKS like nazi trash  +-------------------------------------------
it's probably just B-CPU...   | (SOME trash ain't WORTH recycling, folks!)
From: schamber@watserv1.waterloo.edu (CHAMBERLAND S - BIOLOGY)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: O Canada, O Quebec  - reaction
Date: 13 Apr 92 19:41:27 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo

In article <1992Apr13.134326.13629@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca> golchowy@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy) writes:
>In article <1992Apr13.005631.8885@watserv1.waterloo.edu> schamber@watserv1.waterloo.edu (CHAMBERLAND S - BIOLOGY) writes:
>>In article <1992Apr10.163958.6038@bmerh2.bnr.ca> robinc@bnr.ca (Robin Collins) writes:
>>>Being one of the few people who has apparently bothered to
>>>read the book, I have difficulty understanding how ANYBODY
>>>can claim that this book is hate literature or really so
>>>offensive. 
>>>
>>>I read it, enjoyed it and recommend it.
>>>Richler doesn't play footsie with the chauvinists outside of
>>>Quebec either. He craps equally on the APEC dinosaurs as he
>>>does their equivalent in Quebec, his own province.
>>
>>Precisely. But newspapers talk only about the bad parts of Quebec.
>>We just see "the head of the coin".
>>
>>Richler is only guilty of bad timing. He should never have written
>>such a book in the middle of a constitution crisis...    :)
>
>The time to engage in a debate is while the issue is still unsettled...
>the timing of the book is most appropriate.  
>
>>The book may be used against Quebec by chauvinists...
>
>How...Quebec nationalists claim this...but how can a book which
>comdemns intolerance and stupid unilingualist policies be used by
>bigots?  

In proving that Quebec is fundamentally bad, racist, antisemite, antidemo-
cratic...

Quebec has many ("defauts" in French????), but it's not THAT bad.
Quebec is not only bad.

Even Richler acknowledges that: he's still in Quebec, isn't he?

Newspapers and chauvinists only use what suits them in such a book,
to convey a biased image of Quebec.

About the timing of the book, publishing it at such a time does not
open the eyes of faulty Quebeckers: it only serves to get them angry,
because right now, Quebec is "le point de mire". There is a lot
of Quebec-bashing right now. This book is seen as the drop which
makes the cup overflow, as we say in French...

At a more peaceful time, maybe people would have seen some truth in it
and be more prepared to change the faulty attitudes...

>
>Gerald
Newsgroups: can.politics
From: orange@alfred.carleton.ca (Paul Vallee)
Subject: Re: Separation?
Organization: Carleton University
Distribution: can
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 14:27:45 GMT

Dans <9693@s3.ireq.hydro.qc.ca> beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard) ecrit:

>Dans <1992Apr08.032810.17326@bmerh2.bnr.ca> nadeau@bnr.ca (Rheal Nadeau) ecrit:
>>Dans l'article <1992Apr7.082314.23749@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca> golchowy@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy) ecrit:
>>>
>>>The same question could be asked in reverse...on what grounds could
>>>Quebec deny Quebec citizenship to any resident of Ontario or British
>>>Columbia or....
>>>
>>>The way I look at it, two new countries would be created, and every
>>>citizen of the old one would have to choose citizenship in one of
>>>the new ones...choosing both "New Canada" and Quebec would not be
>>>allowed.
>>
>>And what would I choose?  I am a Canadian, and an Ontarian.  I am
>>also a francophone.  How could I decide, ahead of time, which of

>Mon grain de sel.

>J'ai l'impression que la double citoyennete aurait pour but de
>faciliter l'acceptation par les anglo-quebecois de la secession du
>Quebec.

>C'est-a-dire que les anglos seraient invites a rester pour au moins
>savoir qu'on ne tient pas a les martyriser!  Avec une double citoyennete,
>ils pourraient retarder leur depart et voir que ce n'est pas si pire.
>Le referendum de 1980 a ete dechirant, mais, on s'en est releve'.

Mon grain de sel, peut-etre plus amer que le tien:

Si le Quebec choisit de partir, je regrette, mais amen-ainsi-soit-il.

Cependant, je vous avertis; je ne suis pas extremiste.  Je ne serai
pas fache.  Mais, je veut negocier la separation la plus avantageuse
pour moi, un Canadien.  Cette attitude est encore plus prevalente chez
ceux qui n'aiment pas le Quebec et la culture francophone autant que
moi.

Sachez aussi une autre chose:  Si vous decidez de partir, je vous
assure que je serai a l'encontre de toute possibilite d'une telle
double citoyennete.  La secession americaine nous donne un excellent
exemple a suivre:  S'il y a des loyalistes, qu'ils viennent au Canada.
Les Qubecois ne pourront pas avoir le meilleur des deux mondes, pour
ainsi dire.  Il y a un prix a payer pour l'independance.



orange@ccs.carleton.ca ------- Paul Vallee ---- 542429@acadvm1.uottawa.ca
------------Home: (613)569-1068 --------- Work: (613)995-6921------------
"We have to shout above the din of our Rice Krispies..."     - The Police
"My Canada includes Quebec."  <-- If you believe it, say it!