Newsgroups: talk.politics.china
From: liuyh@vis.toronto.edu (Yuanhui Liu)
Subject: (none)
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Toronto
Distribution: na
Date: 30 Sep 92 19:01:33 GMT

Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 20:54:40 GMT

In article 1429 <92Sep29.114809edt.114@orasis.vis.toronto.edu>(17 more) 
liuyh@vis.toronto.edu (Yuanhui Liu) writes:
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>well, what's the difference, India still want it, does it?  It just continued
>the regional bully role Queen Victoria's Empire.  As I recall, British(Indian)
>troops and then spin doctors was working on Tibet really fast before
>the Brits fucked up in both WWs and shrank their empire, first by invading
>Tibet sacking Lasha when when China was in internal turmoil and too weak
>to fight for its territory, and then bribe Tibetan diplomats to sign
>away bordering territories to India behind both the Regional Tibetan
>government and the central government's back.  
 
The difference is that India did not invade and hold with force a
sovereign country called Tibet.
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But Britian did invade the region of Tibet and other parts of China,
is India part of the Empire?  You don't think the british-Indian
involvment influenced Tibet's relation with the rest of China at all?
Or that the promise of support & aid & military advisors/spies, guns,
threats and guns did not help at all to separate Tibet from China?  
Who invaded Tibet?  The Brits did, the last I recall they fought
Tibetan & Han troops and sacked Lasa.  And then began their long
influences on Tibet.  Look at their Red Hats lamaist cousins in Sikkim, it
was part of Tibet/China, --> resisted british-Indian conquest -->
british colonial --> "Independent" kingdom --> "colonization"
by non sino-Tibetans --> Indian Protectrate --> Indian military 
intervention --> and since 1975 a state in the Union of India.  

I guess this is what you mean by independence & sovereign nation,
isn't it?  
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>Sure it's a soverveign country, as long as it doesn't sneeze in front
>of India.  By the way, Panama and Granda are also soverveign countries,
>but who gives a shit about them?  
 
Whether you give a "shit" about them or not, Nepal and Bhutan are 
sovereign countries.  India gives enough of a "shit" about them to let 
them remain sovereign countries.  I rather suspect that Tibet would 
like to be sovereign too.
 
*************************************************************************
India give enough shit about it only because these two tried very hard
to resist the Indian expansion effort, you gotta give India credit
trying.  "Sovereign" is hardly there when India decides you are not
allowed by some trucks from one of your neighbors.  I'm sure Canada
can by some trucks with out Washington approval, if not some ICBMs
from the Soviet bloc?
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>Can you explain to me how it is done?  Do you know, before the communists
>ever existed, they are "Tibetan" troops in "China", and "Chinese" troops
>in "Tibet", and "Muslim("Hui") troops all over the place too.  China unified
 
You mean: "there were Tibetans in Tibet."  China annexed the whole of 
the Tibetan province of Amdo (renaming as Qinghai province) and much of 
Kham province (annexing much of it to Sichuan, Gansu and Yunnan provinces) 
leaving less half the original country as Xizang. 
*************************************************************************
The great Hui warload Ma BuFang is laughing in his tombs, "QingHai"
a Tibetan province?  Please!  Yes, there are quite a number of Tibetan
settled and lives there a long time ago, so are substantial number
of Huis and other primary Muslim tribes, also there is a mongolian 
presence, and Hans in major cities.  There are some tibetan temples,
but the god-king hardly had any adminstrative role over there, and
during the civil war it's largely under control of Hui warloads
nominally repect the central government -- depends on who claim to be
the central government of the time.  Oh I see, since there are some
Chinese settled in California since 1800s, can I call the SunShine
state a Chinese province?  What about British Columbia?  

I acturally had remote-remote uncle of my served in a PLA radar battlion
in the middle of nowhere in QingHai during mid-70s, during the worst
tumorial times of the end of Cultural revolution.  And no, he didn't
running around brutally attacking Tibetan nomads, the soldiers and
nomads are good friends, and he liked the people there although
not the terrible climate.  When he was on guard duty he was not afraid
of some Independent seeker sneak up to him and slip his throat you
would like to believe, his main concern was whether or not to grab
his AK-47 and shoot that god-damned wolf 50 meters away which has
been staring at him of the last 3 hours, and that will of course weak
up his entire unit and majorly piss off his commanding major.  

Gansu was northwest of Qinghai and part of traditional silkroad,
now mainly populated by Han and Hui, with a blend of Mongolian and
Tibetan, the kingdom Western Xia was set up there during the 10th
century by an ancient people who's blood relative of modern day
Tibetans but culturally much closer to Han of the time, they invented
a written language close to Chinese, but lost in history when
the mongolian razed it from the map in 13th century.  Gee, do you 
consider that's part of Tibet?  and by the way, Gansu is not close
to Sichuan, there is a Shan3xi province in between, shall we 
include that into your definition of Tibet too?  After all, the pre-lamaist
tibetan King did sack the Imperial Capital ChangAn(XiAn) for about a week 
during Tang dynasty.  Gosh, that's part of Tibet too than.  

I agree there are large number of Tibetans in the former ChangDu,
today's western Sichuan, but so are the Yi people(black & white),
and some Han, the Yis are CCP allies since long march, Gee, Did Tibet
invade a primitive but sovereign country there?   

As for YunNan, that's probably the most culturally diverse place of
them all, there are the Zhuang, Miao, Dai, Bai, Yi, BuYi, and few Tibetans,
a Mongolian tribe left over from the Yuan Dynasty, and another dozen of 
different nationality there, and I am sure there is some
Burmase, Laotian, and Vietnamese in the border area too, should China
cede the province to French colonial indo-China last century?  I am
sure the french thought about the independence and sovereignity
of the people of YuNan a long time before you did.  the ancient 
kingdom of YeLang and Nan(six) Zhao existed a long time before
Tibet come to the picture.  
 
Well, did the CCP ever did any "ethnic cleansing" in all these provinces?  
if anyone decides to "independent" -- I am sure if you presuade the people
enough they would believe it, then they will probably be 15 countries
alone in YuNan, and have a ball about who invaded/oppressed  who at 
which century, and make Yugoslavia look like a 8th grade girl's
slumber party.   
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>independent and automous provinces all over the place, and the Americans
>will still be prompting free-trade for uncle sam's surpluses all over
>the 178 countries, and send in a couple of carriers to squash
>some banana republics for let's say selling opium to its citizens or
>something.  Hey, China would just like the free & democratic
>nations of Africa.  ;->   
 
Well, China did one thing right: it didn't go after "banana" republics,  
rather it went after a "treasure house;" and then it went one better 
by calling exactly that: "Xizang" (= "treasure house").
**************************************************************************
Nice try, Xi means "west", Zang means "hidden".  The Ancient name of
xizang is "TuBo" as it's called, and that's where the word "tibet"
come from.  
You ought to pass this advice to the CCP, so far they haven't made
any money from XiZang, they ought to look at the black goid model
of the independent and sovereign "long star republic of Texas",
and the real gold mine of the "Bear flag republic" of California.  
They are turning capitalistic ya know, they need to study 
whiteman's vast experience in exploring places and make a profit
out of there.  
*************************************************************************** 
>yes, as long as the native rights doesn't bug the Quebeckers,
>and they can't have whatever they want as long as whiteman can
>build a huge dam or golf course on their /hunting/traditonal/scared/burial
>land.  
 
Canada has been giving back huge tracts of land to the native and many 
more negotiations are underway.  What has China been doing?
***************************************************************************
China never chased its 60+ different minorities 80+ millions people into 
reservations in the first place.  At the last count, how many aboriginals 
are in Canada or the US? I wonder why they start disappearing since white 
man arrived here.   
**************************************************************************
 
>and on the second note, what's china doing?  I don't deny China don't
>have a democratic government.  However, you will be surprised that
>Cultural assimulation is not at all one of the tactic of that brutal
>government.  Tibetans are still there, after thoudsands of years of
>livint with the Han, so are the Muslims"Hui", I think they wind up
 
Why did 100,000 Tibetans leave in 1959?  Why are 100's more leaving 
every month?  Why was a Tibetan shot in Nepal trying to escape Tibet
as was reported in China News Digest last month?
**************************************************************************
Why don't Dalai resisted the "peaceful" liberation of 1950?  Why
does he voluntary accept the accord?  Why do he accept the exiled
Panchen back to Tibet?  Why didn't go to India in 1950?  there wasn't
a single PLA soldier on the border than?  Do you consider that between
1920-1950 the 8th & 9th Dalai invaded and occupied the sovereign authority
of the Panchen Lama's "rear Tibet"?  What about his/his reincarnation's
refusal of the Panchen/Panchen's reincarnation's & central authority's
order to have the Panchen in Tibet rather than exiling his rival lama 
in QingHai?  Why does Dalai returned to tibet in 1956 after lecturing
in India and being lectured by about 100 people of staying in India?  

There's no secret that Dalai and Panchen had this "eternal feud"
started several reincarnations ago, and the Communist was quick to
seize that to use Panchen to weaken DaLai's power.  
the 1959 incident is a flash point between the internal power struggle
between Dalai, the CCP, the rival nobles in the tibetan government,
and the Panchen, when the CCP played Panchen's allies  against Dalai, 
and finally started to have land reforms and frees the slaves, that's the
last straw:  'cause the nobles power base is gone, they have nothing
to lose, that's why they decided to openly split with the CCP.  
***************************************************************************
 
>The MOngolians are still roaming the plain & desert, although inner mongolia 
>now has large industrial cities, and in the cities mongolians and Hans are
 
Inner Mongolia is now >95% Han.  Tibet (=Xizang+Qinghai+parts of Gansu, 
Sichuan and Yunnan) is now close to 50% Han or Hui.  The Tibetans are 
afraid that China is trying the same strategy in Tibet as it used in 
Inner Mongolia.  What surer way to prevent minority independence 
movements.  Tibetans have protested this policy vehemently.

****************************************************************************
Inner mongolia had about 80+ percent Han, there are also HUi, but do you
know the percentage before the CCP take over?  For a long time the major
cities in inner mongolia became bigger and bigger urban centers, sucking
in more people from everywhere.  And merchant will come to trade, and 
state factories are opened in these cities tapping in its population, 
railways reached there, linking east west, china with mongolia and russia, 
and more people will come.  nowadays more merchants goes to these places, 
and private enterprises are setting up.  BaoTou and HuHeHaoDe are industrial
cities for a long time.  If you consider inner mongolia without its 5 or 6 
major urban centers, it's still typical mongol plains dotted with tribes and 
their tradional "MengGuBao" tent.  By the same token, if you discount 
urban center like Lasa, in Tibet, then Tibetans have a 90+ majority 
in the rural areas.  Is this too hard to imagine?  Should
the communist reimpose limits on where people can live to satisfy west's
demand of protecting minorities?  As for the Tibetan presences in other
provinces, like I said, before Tibetans settled there they are already
someone there, unless someone start ethnic cleasing we will never figure 
out "This is my land, and this ain't your land..."  Why don't we
just leave everyone there live in peace instead of sturring up racial 
prides and what belongs to who stuff?      
*****************************************************************************
-- 
Conrad Richter                     richter@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca
Richters Herbs                     71550.3411@compuserve.com
Goodwood, ON L0C 1AO Canada        Tel 416-640-6677 / Fax 416-640-6641


Newsgroups: talk.politics.china