HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: alizard@pil.UUCP
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: regarding E-mail access to the Clinton Administration
Date: 10 Nov 92 10:25:26 GMT


OK, well, the Clinton campaign is in theory, supposed to have a new E-mail
address some time in the next week or so... but it might be well to remind
the organization that YOU want to be able to contact Clinton via E-mail...
the more letters, the sooner this is likely to happen.

so send some snailmail to:

Jeff Eller
Director of Field Communications
Clinton/Gore National Headquarters
P.O. Box 615
Little Rock, Arkansas 72203

and tell him that a modern President needs to stay in touch with the several
million of us E-mail users... and they really need to EXPAND their access to
electronic networks. You want to be able to write Clinton on your favorite
BBS networks? Ask. There is no reason why they can't.

If you have anything else you want to say to our new President pending the
new E-mail address, replace the name and job title with Bill Clinton's
name/job title...

And what about Congress? Both houses have E-mail systems... (I'd
address that inquiry to your local Congress-critter.)

And I am delighted to note that the Senate is getting a women's
restroom.

Other than this, I'm glad to see the facts about Tippe Gore coming out,
some of this is material new to me, it looks like my comments on her weren't
nearly strong enough. Among other things, I hadn't realized she'd targeted
non-Xtian religion as part of her agenda... she is more dangerous than I'd
thought. Keep an eye on her, I'm sure she'll provide us with reasons to
use whatever E-mail access we have to Clinton. 

blessings...
                                                 A.Lizard
====== 93 ====== mea saurus, mea saurus, mea maxima saurus! ====== 93 ======
                  (slogan contributed by Jessica McGeary)
Mail to me should be sent to:       |  There are no fnords in this sig file.
alizard%tweekco%boo@PacBell.COM     |  autoreply to address I posted this
     ^^^ preferred site ^^^         |  from only if you want to wait a
PacBell.COM!boo!tweekco!alizard     |  solstice or two for my answer.
alizard@seer.mystic.com(backup site)|              Kallisti!
From: dhardin@bbn.com (Dawn Hardin)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Fight the Funny-Mentals in Washington State
Date: 11 Nov 92 19:07:56 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: bbn.com

In article <1992Nov11.090005.29476@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com>, billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
> 
> Get ready for it. In every state of the nation. Mabon and the OCA have
                                                  ^^^^^

> vowed to have more measures on the ballots in 1994. He was not just
> talking about Oregon. Start getting your groups together now, you can
> bet that he is doing so.

That name gives me a start whenever I see it.  Has anyone else noticed
the irony of a person with this name giving us all such fits?
Are there any fundy ministers named "Beltaine"?

Dawn
"Hello death, goodbye Avenue A.  I'm getting tired of waiting, tired of
being afraid.  Joseph Campbell gave me hope and now I have been saved.
So I sing hello death, goodbye Avenue A."  "Folk Song" by Bongwater.
From: bwhite@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (William E. White )
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: raising children
Date: 5 Nov 92 06:31:59 GMT
Organization: O.U., Harvard on the Hocking, Berkeley in the Boondocks!

In article <-1364964153snx@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au> gil@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au (Gil Hardwick) writes:

>Sorry, but the biological nuclear family (=M+F+kids) is very far
>indeed from traditional, and by no means complete. It is only at the
>rabid and often violent insistence of patriarchal hierarchies that
>people form such a family unit to begin with.

Do you base this on observations of other human cultures?  I don't
necessarily doubt that human nature tends away from monogamy at times,
though.

>Being based essentially on the sexual relationship between the parents 
>(as mated biological pairs) ...

Or an intimate relationship, or companionship, or whatever.  Most people
I've met who have been successful in the long run have had more than
a sexual relationship (and I'm not really talking about "romantic love"
either).

>the unit is unstable in the extreme, and its breakdown is what is 
>bringing about the single parent phenomenon.

If anything, I think many people today have the (unrealistic) expectation
that "romantic love" will hold a relationship (and ultimately, a family)
together.  The trouble is that for someone who expects the feeling of
passion and romance, long-term relationships probably aren't the best
answer.  This is not really a problem, of course; after all, everyone
seems to want something different out of human relationships, and (assuming
all partners are willing) that's fine by me.
I am worried somewhat about children in the situation, since I tend to feel
that it's beneficial for a child to have a stable (not necessarily a
traditional) environment.  I'm inclined to believe that people who move
from person to person after the romance is gone would make poorer parents
than those who stay for other reasons (companionship, intimacy, family,
anything that legitimately makes one want to stay).  But this is just my
belief.

>On what grounds would it be worse? Worse than a *nice* family with such
>a *high moral standing* in their community, whose father behind closed
>doors beats his wife and abuses his children, or whose mother has become
>a drunk, or valium freak, in despair? Why do you think so many women
>of this present generation have opted for single-parenthood instead of
>marriage, having grown up in such an oppressive domestic environment?

Again, I think the important thing is a stable and mature family 
environment.  This can come in a traditional or non-traditional family.


-- 
|  Bill White   +1-614-594-3434     | bwhite@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu             |
|  31 Curran Dr., Athens OH  45701  | bwhite@bigbird.cs.ohiou.edu (alternate) |
|  SCA: Erasmus Marwick, Dernehealde Pursuivant, Dernehealde, Middle Kingdom  |
From: sj1s+@andrew.cmu.edu (Sherrianne M. Johnson)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: raising children
Date: 6 Nov 92 19:27:46 GMT
	<1992Nov5.091302.11648@cc.tut.fi>
Organization: Junior, Art, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

The text in question:

>>>Children being raised by two parents of the same
>>>sex were also at risk, but not as great.
>>In most countries adoption by homosexual couples is not allowed, so I
>>don't think there can be enough material to study so far. My personal
>>opinion is that this would be even worse than a single parent situation.

Korhonnen Tommi writes (and the headers for above were deleted by him,
so I can't do much about it):

(>> is me)

>>Okay, I've been quiet, but I haven't seen ANYONE refuting this statement
>>and the one above!  I had the idea that this bboard was at least
>>*slightly* gay/les/bi positive...
> 
>>How would having two parents of the same sex be "worse than a single
>>parent situation?"  Because they aren't teaching biased gender roles? 
>>Because for some reason they wouldn't love and cherish a child as
>>heterosexual couples do?  Or because of the hostility that would be
>>directed at the child by his/her peers?  I'm sorry, but my opinion is
>>that there is nothing wrong with same-sex parents, but there is
>>something VERY wrong with the society that would punish the child for it.
> 
>!!! No, that IS NOT THE POINT here. The point of negative-positive attitude
>of gays/lesbos is definitely not the topic here. Usually here people don't
>mind about it. 
>Now this time the talking here has NOT beem refusing. Only scientific:
>it's not 'imprtant' here is it acceptable for non-mainstreamers to raise 
>children, but what does it affect on the children, from statistical point.
>Read the previous letter: _the_risk_ of children raised by minorities
>is greater...

Well, if we are talking about risk to children by their parents, I guess
I would like to see some statistics.  If there really are no statistics
on children of gay and lesbian and bi parents, then how can we make
these value judgements (ie, the risk of these children is greater)?  The
statement above about "My personal opinion" was my attack on their
personal opinion, which is very definitely "negative-positive attitude
of gays/lesbos!"


 The same of course applies if we are talking, say some 
>peculiar hobby goers and their children, they'll have a measurable change 
>to end up something. See? No-one has been judged here, yet.

Again, perhaps I should have been more  clear about exactly what
statement I was  attacking.  I doubt the first statement (agreeing that
there is probably not enough data), and attack the second person's
opinion.

sher
  


> 
>I guess, that if you had to define 'natural' way to raise children, 
>you'd to count the history of nature, and these statistics, how do people
>thrive (sp?) in different environment. The particular ethics is not 
>important at that kind of discussion.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: A Few Words About Election Results
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 09:38:24 GMT

markbr%radian@natinst.com (markbr) writes:
: >> 
: >> All in all, it's a stunning setback for the fascist right.
: >
: >Yeah, but at the expense of putting the facist left in charge.
: >
: *******FLAME ON********
: a) by definition, fascism is extremist right. Go look it up before you misuse 
: 	the term.

If you were correct - the fascist right would be a redundant term.

I suggest you look the work up yourself. Fascist is extremist - that part is
correct. However, it applies to those who believe in an autocratic government,
with extreme suppression of freedom and regimentation of the populace.

The Republicans do not seem to feel that way - they supposedly believe in less
government - it is the Democrats who seem to want to regulate everything.

To me, there is little difference between the two parties. They just have their
own priorities on what parts of our lives they wish to regulate.  It is the
extremists of both parties who are the fascists.

Bill

: 	asshole. Let's see, the "fascist left" wants to allow choice, tax
: 	the ultra-rich who've eaten us alive for the last 12 years, and
: 	cut back on civil rights. Right. I see, this cuts into our liberties.

The fascist left wants to prohibit private ownership of firearms. Clinton
wants to set up work camps for first time juvenile drug offenders. Yes, the
new president wants to cut back on civil liberties.

: Buzz off.

Why? Because someone does not agree with your rose tinted view of the
party of your choice? I hope that Clinton will do better for the country
than Bush - but I am not going to hold my breath.

Bill
From: lilleyc@cs.man.ac.uk (Chris Lilley)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: xmas
Date: 3 Nov 92 23:33:37 GMT
Organization: Dept Computer Science, University of Manchester, U.K.

In article <1992Oct27.182017.3427@indetech.com> janet@indetech.com
(Janet Christian) writes: 

>Besides, just remember that the *ONLY* thing "Christian" about Christmas
>(Yule) is the "birth of Christ" myth. 

Actually the birth of Christ bit is a direct translation of the birth
of Mithras - born in a stable, virgin mother, 25 december, odd visitors,
the whole bit.

I seem to remember that the same stable was used for some earlier gods
too.

>Everything else has Pagan roots.
>Trees, holly, gifts, candles, *even* Santa. 

All true...



--
Chris Lilley
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Technical Author, ITTI Computer Graphics and Visualisation Training Project
Computer Graphics Unit, Manchester Computing Centre, Manchester, UK
Internet:   lilley@cgu.mcc.ac.uk        Janet:   lilley@uk.ac.mcc.cgu
Voice:      +44 (0)61 275 6095          Fax:     +44 (0)61 275 6040
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: bwhite@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (William E. White )
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: raising children
Date: 5 Nov 92 06:20:46 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: O.U., Harvard on the Hocking, Berkeley in the Boondocks!

In article <1d9qdlINNino@morrow.stanford.edu> GC.GGG@forsythe.stanford.edu (Gwyn Gordon) writes:

>This is patently false. "Traditional" families make up LESS THAN 30%
>of American families. Less. Than. 30. Percent.

I agree that "nontraditional" families are just as valid and potentially
just as strong as "traditional" families; I think it all depends on the
view society has towards the families, and how much time and effort the 
parent(s) are willing to expend.

I do, however, want more detail on the "less than 30%" figure.  I have
seen it before, along with refutations which have argued that the figure
commonly quoted (I don't know its original source either) used a misleading
definition of "traditional" (I think in the particular case, any family
that had, at any time, involved the parents living separately, was regarded
as a nontraditional family).

I'm not saying I doubt the figure, just that I'd like to see it supported
and with more detail, such as:

- Percentage of families CURRENTLY with two hetero parents
	- Percentage of those whose parents had divorced+remarried
- Precentage of families currently with one parent
	- Percentage due to death of parent
	- Precentage due to divorce
(and so on).

>This is not a majority.

Also, this depends on area.  In many areas, dual hetero parenting is very
much still the norm.

>=gg


-- 
|  Bill White   +1-614-594-3434     | bwhite@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu             |
|  31 Curran Dr., Athens OH  45701  | bwhite@bigbird.cs.ohiou.edu (alternate) |
|  SCA: Erasmus Marwick, Dernehealde Pursuivant, Dernehealde, Middle Kingdom  |
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: shrdlu@willow.sdd.trw.com (Lynda L. True)
Subject: Men's Spirituality (was Re: Women and Men Witches)
Organization: TRW Inc., Redondo Beach, CA
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 19:21:05 GMT

In article <BxLwJA.Bxr@encore.com> aaldrich@encore.com (Al Aldrich) writes:

>>>Since the previous occupant of my house was active in the Men's
>>>Spirituality movement, I get a lot of mailings from them.

[and]

>>I hope the men's movement is helping people.  The things I heard about
>>it have not been terribly complimentary.

[and]

>> I recall hearing something
>>about a seminar given by Robert Bly where someone in the audience asked
>>about "how we can get in touch with out feminine sides" and Bly snapped
>>at him, "If you're a momma's boy, get the fuck out of the temple."

[and]

>BTW.. I had not heard of a men's `spirituality' movement. Can the poster
>send me any addresses or phone numbers from some of this literature that
>I could follow up on? Pertinent to the discussion we had awhile ago on
>women's mysteries and the seeming lack of men's mysteries, I am trying to
>take my wife's advice and `Just Do It'.

OK. I'm in a hurry, so watch for typos...
(No, I wasn't the previous poster, but I think that this publication
should be mentioned)

Presenting... "The Green Man" which is a magazine for Pagan men. I
quote from the subscription form that I have here in front of me...

As publisher of SageWoman, I am proud to announce the creaqtion of
"The Green Man" -- a magazine for Pagan men. As co-publishers, my
husband Alan and I will feature artwork, ritual, articles, poetry,
interviews, reviews, and much more from Pagan men around the country.
Out first quarterly 32 page issue will debut in Spring 1993.

To be a charter subscriber, just send in this card and you'll be sure
to receive all 4 issues in 1993. I hope you'll join in our new
adventure!   -- Blessed Be, Anne

YES! I'd like to join the Journey...

__ Please enter my ____ year subscriptoin to "The Green Man."

-Price is $13 for 1 year or $24 for 2 years ($14/$26 in Calif - state
sales tax) Foreign or first class, add $5 per year.-

__  Please send a sample issue. My payment of $4 ($4.50 in Calif) is enclosed.

  __ Payment is enclosed.

  __ Please charge my (circle one) Visa/MasterCard #______________ExpDate____


  Name________________________________________________

  Address_____________________________________________

  City______________________State________Zip__________

(End Quote)

Lynda
-- 

shrdlu@rowan.sdd.trw.com (Lynda L. True)
Work Phone - (310) 812-1660 or (310) 812-1570
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: lori@umbio.med.miami.edu (Lori Herrington)
Subject: Re: bathing cats
Organization: University of Miami Medical School
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 19:14:27 GMT

Right now I have a wonderful black cat named Usul.  he loves showers and
jumps in the tub when ever any one goes in to the bathroom in hopes that
some one will bath him.  


-- 
lori@umbio.med.miami.edu

******************************

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Gore's book
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 8 Nov 92 05:25:29 GMT

I should get paid for promoting the damned thing . . .

Here's partial list of references (way partial; there are eight pages of
them in small print):

Becker, Ernest.  _The Denial of Death_
Bradshaw, John.  _Homecoming: Reclaiming and Championing Your Inner
   Child_
Carson, Rachel.  _The Silent Spring_
Eisler, Riane.  _The Chalice and the Blade_ (Yes, this one cheered me
   immensely, too!)
Fisher, Ron, et. al.  _The Emerald Realm: Earth's Precious Rain Forests_
Gimbutas, Marija.  _The Language of the Goddess_ (Yup!)
Hong, Evelyn.  _Natives of Sarawak: Survival in Borneo's Vanishing
   Forest_ 
Hughes, Donald J.  _Ecology in Ancient Civilizations_
Miller, Alice.  _The Drama of the Gifted Child: The Search for the True
   Self_
Schaef, Anne Wilson.  _When Society Becomes an Addict_
Weisman, Steven B. "Where Births Are Kept Down And Women Aren't." THe
   New York Times  

There are over a hundred references other than these that have to do
only with the enviroment and not spirituality and human nature.  As well
as being a tremendous source of scientific information -- presented to
make it understandable to the intelligent non-scientist who has some
scientific intuition -- there are things like this:

"For most of history, a great deal of what we call culture has consisted
of beguiling ways to share especially valuable information about the
world and how we can relate to it productively: how to make an arrowhead
with a groove in the side to allow the animal's blood to drain out, how
to weave a basket that will catch the grain but not the dust, how to
dance the hunt and the harvest while singing the secrests of the moon
and the seasons, how to tell stories that captivate children . . . "

Just buy the damned thing and read it.  You WILL be educated about the
general environmental problem facing us, and you will see the novel
sight of a politician saying things like, "We have to change the way we
relate to the earth spiritually."  Just read the thing.  And thank the
Goddess that someone in a position of power appears to have the ability
to take the long view -- the REALLY long view.  Of course, he could
still be an asshole, but given the choice between an asshole who cares
about the planet and your run-of-the-mill asshole, I'll take the former.

Blessings,
Janis
From: wolfe@wolves.uucp (G. Wolfe Woodbury)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Women and Men Witches
Date: 8 Nov 92 05:08:27 GMT
Organization: Red Wolfe @ The Wolves Den
X-Md4-Signature: 1caa35aa08cd332ead6e69e63264f839

gil@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au (Gil Hardwick) writes:
>
>radzy@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU writes:
>
> > The talk about eastern and western cultures is a red herring.
>
>I don't think so.

What do you know!  Something Gil says that I can agree with! :-) :-)

I'm beinging to realize too quickly that my technical education has
sorely neglected ethnology.  Time for auditing some more courses at the
University!

Gil:
	how about some quick observations on the electronic cultures,
and how they might differ from the verbal/visual cultures?
-- 
G. Wolfe Woodbury @ The Wolves Den, Durham NC	[This site is NOT affiliated  ]
wolfe@wolves.durham.nc.us			[with Duke University! Idiots!]
UUCP: ...!duke!wolves!wolfe      <Standard Disclaimers apply>
    Above All, we celebrate!  --Celebrate the Circle, Statement of Purpose.
From: michael@albert.bu.edu (Michael Chaplin)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: info on Druid Prince Book
Date: 6 Nov 92 01:14:58 GMT
Distribution: alt
Organization: Boston University

As I promised before here's the bibliographic information for:

_The Life and Death of a Druid Prince_
(The Story of Lindow Man, an Archaeological Sensation)

Anne Ross and Don Robins
Summit Books, New York (1989)
ISBN 0-671-69536-3
(Hardcover: $19.95)

--
=========================================================================
Michael A. Chaplin           If you want *their* opinions, ask *them*.
michael@albert.bu.edu ....The Einstein Papers Project, Boston, Mass., USA
chaplin@husc.harvard.edu ....Harvard University, Cambridge, Mass., USA
Xref: sparky alt.pagan:12554 alt.magick:5743
From: mdouglas@netcom.com (Hokh'Ton)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,alt.magick
Subject: Re: Santeria and Voodoun
Keywords: I'm Ba'acck. ...
Date: 8 Nov 92 23:46:57 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

eddie@hermes.oit.unc.edu (Edward M. Averett) writes:


     >. . . [material deleted] but there isn't a Vatican of Truth in Santeria 
     >out there anywhere.
     >It boils down to if you serve the loa, then you serve the loa.
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
		[emphasis added]


>			I serve the Loa, 
>				Edward M. Averett
>				Bunny with a Thousand Faces... 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

	Mr. Averett, your post makes some excellent and unarguable points,
but the above-quoted portion strikes me as the summum bonum of an attitude
that I wish more people involved with Afro-Diasporic religions would take.
Thank you for your insight. From one who also serves.
			Ache


-- 




	Hokh'Ton	:	The Crystal Wind is the Storm,
  mdouglas@netcom.com	:	 and the Storm is Data,
Michael Douglas-Llyr	:	  and the Data is Life.
			:		---Player's Litany (The Long Run)