HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mlelstv@speckled.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de (Michael van Elst)
Subject: Re: CBM mention on 12/11/92 Computer Chronicles
Organization: Max-Planck-Institut f"ur Radioastronomie
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 01:11:26 GMT

In <1993Jan5.182700.25622@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> jerry@msi.com (Jerry Shekhel) writes:
>Yes, but a badly written application (one that doesn't check the return
>value of the allocation routine) can easily crash the system.  Oops, no MP.

Which has nothing to do with VM and will not help when you exhaust VM.

>Look around.  People *do* want it.

The want it when they get told that it is a good thing.

Regards,
-- 
Michael van Elst
UUCP:     universe!local-cluster!milky-way!sol!earth!uunet!unido!mpirbn!p554mve
Internet: p554mve@mpirbn.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de
                                "A potential Snark may lurk in every tree."
From: bloc1469@ee.ee.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Advocacy? What do you want for the Amiga?
Date: 12 Jan 93 01:42:33 GMT
Organization: Electrical Engineering Dept. University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.2.33

In article <1993Jan10.185500.29496@wam.umd.edu> rsrodger@wam.umd.edu (Yamanari) writes:
>	But with Commodores ap history, I wouldn't count on them being
>	consistent even across programs in one package.

Solution?  It's simple.  Get a Style Guide, published by C=, which
sets the standard for the GUI.  Read it.  Use it.  All of the better
developers are, only those mindless idiots who insist upon doing
everything themselves so that everything is identical between 1.3 and
2.0 are doing otherwise.  Again, this refers to those at SoftWood, who
proved themselves to be inept at repairing Pen Pal, and have again
proven themselves to be quite the moron with Final Copy (and no, I
don't have any sympathy for 1.3 owners.)

>	In particular, I hope, student bundles.  But C/A has other priorities
>	that I think should come first.  Their print drivers/printing method
>	leaves a lot to be desired.  They need to get out RTG because the
>	latest and greatest chipset is best described as "adequate".  They

Sounds like you're going to be out of gripes, soon.  :)

>	(In particular, there is a WISC chip out there that can emulate a
>	25mhz '040 and costs <$90 in bulk--it'snot released, but it's been
>	shown a number of times).

Tsk, tsk, tsk.  Advocating vaporware can get you shot.  After all,
this chip could end up as delayed as the Toaster was.

Greg

--
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N. Barrett)
Subject: Re:  Advocacy? What do you want for the Amiga?
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 18:23:00 GMT

In article <bruce.0dyn@zuhause.MN.ORG> bruce@zuhause.MN.ORG (Bruce Albrecht) writes:
>In article <C0MEA7.MwA@news.iastate.edu> barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N. Barrett) writes:
>>   I compare standalone word processors to standalone word processors, and
>>integrated software (like 'works' packages) to integrated software.  So when
>>I need to compare Final Copy II or ProWrite to something, I compare them 
>>to MS Word or Word Perfect for MAC/Windows .  After all, Final Copy II, 
>>ProWrite, MS Word, and Word Perfect are all standalone word processors.  But
>>when comparing software in 'works' packages, it should be compared to 
>>similar software in other 'works' packages.  Thus, if Commodore were to write
>>a 'works' package to be included with some Amiga system, the included word
>>processing, spreadsheet, database, and drawing software would be compared to
>>the word processing, spreadsheet, database, and drawing software included
>>with Claris Works or MS Works.  (However, Commodore should endeavor to make
>>the software much better than the software in other 'works' packages, because
>>Commodore has lots and lots of catching up to do)
>
>That's not Commodore's job.  What you're suggesting is equivalent to telling
>Compaq they need to write their own "works" package to supply on Compaq
>computers, because the ones supplied by Lotus and Microsoft aren't good enough
>for you.  Now if Commodore wanted to bundle a "works" package with some model
>of the Amiga, they might want to encourage one of the Amiga "works" package
>developers to beef up their product.

   You are comparing watermelons and grapefruit again.  Compaq could use an
existing works package, because packages are available that are good enough and
run fine on Compaq systems.  But an adequate works package does not exist for
the Amiga.  If it did, Commodore could license it, but it does not exist, so
Commodore has to encourage its development.  They should basically do with this
works package the same thing that they did for AmigaVision.  AmigaVision (and
AVPro) would not exist if Commodore had not approached a third-party 
developer specifically requesting that they write it.  

---
| Marc Barrett -MB-  |  email: barrett@iastate.edu
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"No, I just think that a computer grafted on top of another computer
is a kludge.  It has nothing to do with the AGA chipset." -- me
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: jerry@msi.com (Jerry Shekhel)
Subject: Re: CBM mention on 12/11/92 Computer Chronicles
Organization: Molecular Simulations, Inc.
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 16:38:14 GMT
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
X-Posted-From: hemi.msi.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

Gregory R Block (bloc1469@ee.ee.uwm.edu) wrote:
:
: >How convenient.
:
: To be blunt, kiss my ass.
:

Aw, what's the matter, Greggie?

:
: While a bit kludgey in philosophy, explain why the system died when I
: zeroed the MS-DOS image from ram while Windows was running.
:

Maybe you f*cked up and overwrote some Windows code?

:
: Try it on your system.  It's REALLY not hard, hell, I'm giving you
: credit.
:

I honestly don't know how to do this -- specifically, I wouldn't know which
range of memory to zero out.  Why don't you just post the source?  It would
really add to your credibility.

BTW, if the program you allegedly wrote is a DOS program, no wonder it
killed your system.  All programs terminate by calling exit().  If your
program stomps over the OS handler for the exit() call, gee I wonder what'll
happen...

: Greg
--
+-------------------+----------------------------+---------------------------+
| JERRY J. SHEKHEL  | Molecular Simulations Inc. | Time just fades the pages |
| Drummers do it... |     Burlington, MA USA     | in my book of memories.   |
|    ... In rhythm! |        jerry@msi.com       |         -- Guns N' Roses  |
+-------------------+----------------------------+---------------------------+
From: tmc@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA (Tim Ciceran)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Will PC Makers Survive Multimedia??
Date: 10 Jan 93 17:22:07 GMT
Organization: Brock University, St. Catharines Ontario

In article <C0MI4z.5rv@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> papresco@cantor.math.uwaterloo.ca (Paul Prescod) writes:

>>I realize what an MPC machine is. I was questioning the fact that you
>>mentioned it in the same context as an effective system for instructional
>>delivery. For me, this is a non sequitur.

>Care to back this up?  If you wanted to say it was an inappropriate
>multimedia development system, then I would agree wholeheartedly.

No, I'd say it's both an inappropriate instructional delivery system, and
an inappropriate multimedia development system. There are a few pieces of
software on the market which effectively use the available hardware. In
the vast majority of cases however, educational software is simply an
electronic translation of existing texts, with added drill and practice
elements.

>But the titles are as good as CDTV titles (there is ALOT of overlap),
>and are 100X more plentiful.  Plus, as a huge market, the number of
>titles is only going to increase exponentially.

CDTV titles are limited in number and even moreso in quality. Even with
a huge market, CBM, Philips, Sega, Tandy and inevitably Matsushita are
discovering that CD-ROM based platforms are becoming a major
disappointment.

>So why is this not an effect system for instrucionaly delivery, and
>which Amiga do you think is better?

None of the above. While there are some noteable exceptions, educational
software is still in its infancy in terms of design and development.
Considerably more effort has to be made to produce educational software,
while the market offers limited returns.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: jerry@msi.com (Jerry Shekhel)
Subject: Re: CBM mention on 12/11/92 Computer Chronicles
Organization: Molecular Simulations, Inc.
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 15:42:29 GMT
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NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

Gregory R Block (bloc1469@ee.ee.uwm.edu) wrote:
:
: Perhaps you'd sound less dumb if you avoided trying to use
: applications to justify the OS at the moment.  If that were true, Plan
: 9 would probably be a pointless, dead OS, as would OS/9.  Fortunately,
: they're two extremely good OSes.  The existence or lack of
: applications does not justify an operating environment/system.
:

Once again, Greg, you fail to grasp the meaning of the words you read.
I'm not using applications to justify the OS.  I'm saying that Windows
has the functionality to support applications the likes of which you
can't get anywhere else.  This functionality includes complete device
independence and communications protocols such as OLE.

But while we're at it, perhaps YOU'd sound less dumb if you could tell me
what an OS is good for without applications.

: Greg
--
+-------------------+----------------------------+---------------------------+
| JERRY J. SHEKHEL  | Molecular Simulations Inc. | Time just fades the pages |
| Drummers do it... |     Burlington, MA USA     | in my book of memories.   |
|    ... In rhythm! |        jerry@msi.com       |         -- Guns N' Roses  |
+-------------------+----------------------------+---------------------------+
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: papresco@cantor.math.uwaterloo.ca (Paul Prescod)
Subject: Re: RISC Amiga?
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 13:11:19 GMT

>The A4000 is 68060 and RISC-ready by virtue of the modular CPU slot.

I specifically said "A stock Amiga."  It makes no sense to buy two CPUs
because C= hasn't got around to supporting the 68060 yet.

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: jerry@msi.com (Jerry Shekhel)
Subject: Re: CBM mention on 12/11/92 Computer Chronicles
Organization: Molecular Simulations, Inc.
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 14:27:48 GMT
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
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NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

Michael van Elst (mlelstv@speckled.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de) wrote:
:
: [virtual memory]
:
: >Look around.  People *do* want it.
:
: The want it when they get told that it is a good thing.
:

Bullshit.  Take a look at UNIX.  VM was added to BSD because it is useful,
not because they wanted to sell more copies.

My God, how I hate this net-trendy I-can-see-through-all-the-hype attitude!!!

:
: Michael van Elst
:
--
+-------------------+----------------------------+---------------------------+
| JERRY J. SHEKHEL  | Molecular Simulations Inc. | Time just fades the pages |
| Drummers do it... |     Burlington, MA USA     | in my book of memories.   |
|    ... In rhythm! |        jerry@msi.com       |         -- Guns N' Roses  |
+-------------------+----------------------------+---------------------------+
From: Aric.Caley@ofa123.fidonet.org
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Byte A4000/A3000T-04
X-Sender: newtout 0.06 Jan  3 1993
Date: 04 Jan 93  00:09:00

> Organization: camaro
> From: tfoley@camaro.uucp (Tim Foley)
> Message-ID: <1993Jan2.175021.12400@camaro.uucp>
> Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.misc
>
>  Good point...acutally, just have CBM changed their name to something else,
> change the Amiga's name to something else, and put it in a METAL case (or at
> least a more ugly, business like case), and it would sell to business's like
> hot cakes.

Well,  the  A4000  certainly covers the "ugly metal case" part of that.  If
"ugly"  means  "business  like"  than the A4000 should indeed sell like hot
cakes :)

> --
>  --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>               The HeartBeat of America...Yesterdays Camaro Z28
>                             tfoley@camaro.uucp
>     Call the Camaro Linux Pub-access site: 1-416-238-6550 USRobotics HST
>    Note: Please, no ftpmail or mailing lists or the host gets annoyed :)
>  --------------------------------------------------------------------------

 -Dances With Coyotes-EMAIL: dances@qed.cts.com-At the begining of the movie-
 --AKA Dances V2.0/Coyote/Critter/Magnet/Major--they know they  have to find-
 -Former Net-Lurker - A-M-I-G-A! NOT AMEOBA%#$!-each other.... but they ride-
 -World's slower programer and cursed with 1.3!-off in  opposite  directions-


--- Maximus 2.01wb
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: das9674@ucs.usl.edu (Stephenson Daniel A)
Subject: Re: HELP--AMIGA OR IBM PC CLONE?
Organization: Univ. of Southwestern La., Lafayette
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 07:57:00 GMT

In article <1992Dec31.123632.1@stsci.edu> speck@stsci.edu writes:
>

Ohh, I *like* posts like this! :-)

>To all people who know about both IBM PC's/CLONES AND AMIGA COMPUTERS:
>
>I want a big hard drive (say at least 120 MB), a HD floppy drive, an onboard
>modem, a mouse, a keyboard, a nice monitor (at least 14", but if I had the
>money I'd like a larger one), and a powerful CPU.  I know IBM PC's fairly
>well, so here are my chief concerns:
>
>1) How would, say, an Amiga with a 68040 compare in raw number crunching power
>   to the same speed (MHz) 486 DX system?

For the 'same' Mhz (that is still debatable, it would seem), the Amiga
68040 would be faster than a 486DX/25Mhz.  Then again, you won't 
find 486DX/25Mhz PCs for sale.  They have been replaced by 486DX2/66Mhz and
the like, which probably gives more 'raw number cunching power' for less
*money* $$$$$$$$$  !

Example: The Amiga4000/25Mhz costs from $3500 to $3800.  I am  not positive 
	if that includes a mnitor, though.

	 Gateway2000, an excellent mail order firm, sells a 486DX2/66Mhz 
	localbus for under $3000, including 15: monitor.

>2) Can Amigas take things like 20" monitors with video cards that permit very
>   large graphics modes (like 1200-or-so pixels square)?

Ya got me.  Amigas do seem to have weird modes, don't they?  You know, the ol'
1280X400 or somesuch mode.  Gack!                     

>3) How easy is the Amiga to program yourself?  Are there REALLY GOOD
>   optimizing compilers available at reasonable cost, such as FORTRAN,
>   C, and BASIC?

I do NOT program Amigas, but the comiler environments for PCs are supposed
to be excellent.

>4) I've seen the wonderful graphics screens that Amigas can generate.  How
>   expensive are grahics packages to really use the Amiga to its advantage?
>   They are quite expensive for IBM clones (really GOOD software).

Hmm, are you talking about ART software?

>5) One BIG pain I've had with PC programming is in FORTRAN and BASIC, where
>   the amount of memory I can use is limited.  For example, the FORTRAN I
>   have only lets you access 640K of memory!  Even if you had 20 MB!  How
>   does this work with an Amiga, i.e., if you have 10MB of RAM, can you
>   trivially use all 10MB at once (minus the memory used for the operating
>   system, of course) for declaring arrays, etc?  This is very important to
>   me.

The Amiga, jsut as OS/2 for the PC, has a flat memory model.  Use however
much memory you have.  Watcom has a 32bit FORTRAN compiler for OS/2.  I do
not know about the Amiga in this regard.

>Thanks in advance,

Suuuure.  

>Scott in Baltimore,MD

Good luck.
-- 
Dan Stephenson   das9674@usl.edu 
"It reminds me of something Cally said. 'He who trusts cannot be
betrayed, only mistaken.' It was a saying of her people.... Cally is
dead. So are most of her people." -Avon, from _Rescue_ (Blakes 7)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: bill@snoopy (Bill Poitras)
Subject: Re: CBM mention on 12/11/92 Computer Chronicles
Reply-To: bill@west.msi.com
Organization: Molecular Simulations, Inc.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 01:31:35 GMT

Jack Radigan (jprad@faatcrl.faa.gov) wrote:
: jerry@msi.com (Jerry Shekhel) writes:
:   VM has its place, in the multiuser environment, on a single user system
: though its value is minimal since you're rarely going to run into the kind
: of peak loads that an MU system encounters.

I disagree.  Although my workstation is capable of multiuser access, it
typically is a single user machine.  If it wasn't for VM, my measly 32MB
of RAM wouldn't be enough.  I run X windows, TCP/IP, on average about 6
terminal windows, some time up to 15.  I also run one or two compiles at
the same time, and occassionaly have FrameMaker ( large program).  Also
the product I develop can take up to 20MB when all the libraries it uses
are debugged (normally its about 4MB).  Without VM, I wouldn't be able to
do my work, period.  And if I had to constantly shutdown windows and
programs to compile my product or run it, that would be a big
inconvenience.

:   Even with that, a tuned MU system has enough core installed to keep memory
: swapping to a mimimum during average loading.

What about above average loading?  If a system handles only the average
case, and doesn't handle the exceptional case, then that system isn't
worth using.

:   Sure, VM is something that's nice to have around, when you need it.  The
: point is that you shouldn't need it too often.

I need it almost every day!

--
+-----------------+-------------------------------+-------------------------+
| Bill Poitras    | Molecular Simulations Inc.    | Tel (408)522-9229       |
| (bill)          | Sunnyvale, CA USA             |                         | 
|                 | FAX (408)732-0831             | bill@west.msi.com       |
+-----------------+-------------------------------+-------------------------+
From: bloc1469@ee.ee.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Comdex/Quicktime released for the PC
Date: 6 Jan 1993 04:07:33 GMT
Organization: Electrical Engineering Dept. University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.2.33

In article <1993Jan5.234623.14887@ra.msstate.edu> skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu (Skip Sauls) writes:
>I had to check because sometimes .advocacy articles get cross-posted to
>.misc and some bozo sends me an automatic letter whining about it.

:D

You'd be talking about Dan Zerkle, if I remember my own letters
correctly.  See, I had, for a long time, this really bad habit of
responding to Marc Barrett's posts.  Marc Barrett has this really bad
habit of posting everything everywhere.  I had a worse habit of not
setting the followups to advocacy...

Suffice to say that I've junked more pages of Dan Zerkle's mail than a
War & Peace novel.  :)

>Sure, I'm just relieved that I'm not getting flamed to a crisp for my
>answer.  :-)

:D

>I see, that is a better explanation than most others.

Thanks.  :)

>This jives pretty well with my experience.  Productivity 4 color on the
>A3000 is fairly slow, but the A4000 doesn't slow down much until you hit
>256 colors, and even then it is faster than the A3000...

Right.  Although in the NON-DBLPAL/NTSC modes, your 256 colors will be
as fast as your DBLPAL/NTSC 16-color modes.  Suffice to say that you
can do some really nice animations in NTSC: Hires-Interlace.  Zero
contention in 256 colors, methinks.

>The 256 color modes are about as snappy as a fast SVGA card on a 486,
>with the Amiga winning for scrolling, the Clone on smooth redraws.  It
>is not unbearable to use, but I find myself sticking with 64 colors as
>a nice speed/color compromise.

Hmm.  Well, the redraws part is a little off, methinks.  It depends on
what you're using.  OS/2 doesn't support anything but simple_refresh
windows, and smart refresh is a commonplace thing on the Amiga...

>Nah, they're on a road-trip to Iowa to kill the bastard...  :-)

Shh, don't say that, he'll leave.  :)

>Maybe we should flood his mailbox with requests.

Nah.  He'd probably think we were rude.  :)  We could always flood the
"suggestions box".  You know, that thing they're always telling us we
shouldn't flood.  ;)

>Heck, didn't he work on Ultima Underworld or something like that?  A little
>demo along those lines would be nice.  :-)

Something EXACTLY like that.  :)  I remember the discussion going on
in .programmer where he was -><- this close to just writing code for
real-time texture mapping on the Amiga.  He gave, literally, step by
step stuff.  He even told you which graphics.library functions to use.
:)

I wish I'd kept those messages, they were fascinating.  I'm not a big
graphics person, personally, but it was still interesting.

Greg

--
(: (: (: (: Have you overdosed on smileys today?  Why NOT!?! :) :) :) :)
(: "Our father, who art in Iowa, Hollow be thy head, Thy ideas run    :)
(:  Thy will be done, At Commodore as it is at Apple"  -Dan Barrett   :)
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy