HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cneal@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Chris Neal)
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
Subject: Re: VK bashing & DC North
Date: 17 Aug 92 16:43:25 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX

In article <Aug.14.10.34.28.1992.24986@andromeda.rutgers.edu> dowzycki@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ken Dowzycki) writes:

>Velvet Knights are doing the same
>thing only with a modern drill, but guess what, IT ISN'T WORKING.
>VK seems to field a full corps every year yet they will always be
>relegated to the cellar (of finals).

Hmmm...I wonder how many corps would jump at the chance to claim such an 
allegedly dubious position as the bottom half of the top 12. With the 
exception of 1991, they have been in finals pretty consistently. You don't
get into finals with all GE and no playing. Glassmen finally figured that one
out and made a pretty good stab this year.

>Maybe VK is not CAPABLE
>of performing a REAL DRUM CORPS SHOW.

Well, there are drums...there are bugles...there is a guard (whether you like
what they do or not). Looks like 128 kids on the field busting their butts to
entertain the crowd the best they can. LOOKS LIKE A REAL DRUM CORPS SHOW 
TO ME!!! 

>  Tell me, what is their best
>section?  Are they known for anything legitimate?  Drill?  Hornline? 
>Drumline?  Guard?......  Silence, right! 

Isn't Tom Float, ex-BD instructor teaching that drum line now?? It's been a 
pretty hot line in the past, and I bet they get even better if he gets a chance to get his claws into them.  

>With VK out of the picture maybe we can see some 
>talented corps in finals like Glassmen, Spirit, or for that matter
>anyone.  Well, there always is a fly in the ointment!

Yes, I suppose there is always a fly, but in this case, I think the fly is a bad
attitude and not a top 12 corps.
From: R.Vincent.Lamb@um.cc.umich.edu
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
Subject: RE: Final Scores - Madison, Wisconsin Aug 15, 1992 (Crossmen's history)
Date: 20 Aug 1992 09:54:30 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

In article <1992Aug18.224722.18044@stortek.com>-- 
Summary: Crossmen's previous "best" placement; Buy a 1992 DCI program!
and subject: Re: Final Scores - Madison, Wisconsin Aug 15, 1992--
pae@blackcat.stortek.com (Phil Earnhardt) wrote:
 
>In article <15203473@um.cc.umich.edu> R.Vincent.Lamb@um.cc.umich.edu writes:
>>The Crossmen must be very happy--best finish ever!  The closest
>>they came to this was in 1978, when they came in 6th in prelims
>>and fell to 9th in finals.
> 
>The closest was in 1982. Crossmen were 7th in 1982 right behind the
>27th Lancers.
> 
>How do I know this? Funny you should ask! The 1992 Championship program has a
>1-page description from each DCI championship. Lots of pictures, and scores
>for the Top 12. For $10, this was a great souvenir program.
> 
>I don't know if DCI has extras, but I highly recommend this program to anyone 
>who'd like to see some snapshots from the past of DCI.
> 
>--phil
>pae@blackcat.stortek.com
 
I still contend that being in 6th in prelims is closer to a 6th place
finish at DCI (even with a fall to 9th in finals--Crossmen *really*
choked that night!) than 7th in both prelims and finals in both
1982 *and* 1990 (forgot that one).  After all they *did* have 6th
in their grasp and lost it in 1978 but never had it the other years.
Besides, wouldn't you say that Phantom was closer to winning DCI
in 1978 than 1977 or 1979 because in 1978 they *tied* SCV for first 
in prelims but were in second in prelims the other years, even though
they ended up in second at finals all three times?
 
Nice plug for DCI, but I thought there weren't supposed to be
commercials on USENET :-) !
 
Vince
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
From: mmcneill@duchamp.ncsa.uiuc.edu (Michael Mcneill -Visualization)
Subject: Re: VK Bashing & DC North
Summary: Spirit was robbed
Organization: National Center for Supercomputing Applications
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 13:50:03 GMT

In article <HALL.92Aug17084959@leopard.cs.uidaho.edu> hall@cs.uidaho.edu (Kelly Hall) writes:
>In article <Aug.14.15.26.32.1992.4506@andromeda.rutgers.edu> dowzycki@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ken Dowzycki) writes:
>
>   >Wrong. How about GE - you know, that aspect that's worth 40 points?
>   >Sure, none of the sections is a dominant force in the corps from
>   >year to year, like, say, that drumline that took high drums in
>   >'80,'81,'82 from.... gosh, was it the Bridgemen? But so what?  
>
>
>     '80  27th and BD were robbed
>I disagree - the Bridgemen played a great show at finals.  I was blown away
>by 27 in prelims but Bridgemen had the better line.

Actually in 1980 it was Spirit's line that was robbed.  They tied Bridge in 
overall score, but the judges used the GE score to break the tie.  Naturally, 
Bridgemen had the higher GE score and so they won High Drums.  Float was 
teaching with Spirit then and the line was incredibly clean.  Remember ticks? 
Spirit's line had 2 in finals that year! 

>
>Kelly
>--
>Kelly Hall == hall@leopard.cs.uidaho.edu
>no disclaimer, no cute quotes

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike McNeill
Spirit '81
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
From: michaelw@cco.caltech.edu (Michael Wang)
Subject: Very interesting observation
Summary: 3
Keywords: 1
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 19:11:29 GMT

	Did you notice that the Cavaliers (Div I) and the Mandarins (Div III)
have had the same finals placement the last FOUR years?  Pretty peculiar, I
must say.
	BTW, Mandarins swept captions (including Colorguard) except for
High Visual (which they came in second by 0.1 points).  YEAH!


-- 
*******************************************************************************
Michaelw@coil.caltech.edu              *  'See me later!' -- "Dude, dude."
*******************************************************************************
From: admiral@m-5.Eng.Sun.COM (Michael Limprecht @Sun Micro Mt View. )
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
Subject: Re: Off My Chest
Date: 19 Aug 92 15:14:08 GMT
Reply-To: admiral@m-5.Eng.Sun.COM
Organization: Sun Microsystems
NNTP-Posting-Host: m-5

In article 27451@u.washington.edu, koreis@milton.u.washington.edu (Robert Koreis) writes:
>
>Gee, we've got all off-season to hash and rehash what happened at
>nationals.  Well, here's my start.
>
>"Summer Music Games" my *&)%!  All these comparisons to the Olympics are
>rridiculous.  What was wrong with DCI Championship, except for that it was
>more honest and much less commercial.
>
>Yes, I hate the politics too.  Maybe it can't be proved, but too much has
>gone on over the years.  Anyone think Madison got a gift over SCV in '75? 
>It will always be with us.  Sigh.
>
Yes. I was there. The judges had it in for us all year. Just like the
back of the record cover said. "How could you loose with that music,
drill and a perfect 30 in GE?" (A first I believe). I always felt we
were robbed in `75. But then Madison probably thinks they were robbed
in `74. Wrong.

It was a weird year. Never could win on the eastern tour. If we where
at a show with Madison and BD. Madison would beat us and we would beat
BD. If it was just us (SCV) and BD then BD would win. Go figure. One
time, it was just SCV and Madison. We took all captions, except horns
(God they had an awesome horn line.) and lost because a execution horn
judge did a hatchet job to us on one side of the field. So whoever said
it only takes one judge is correct.


>
>My overall impresssion of DCI this year?  Outside of Madison and BD,
>where's the excitement?  I'll have to watch the tape again.
>
>And so it goes.

Haven't seen DCI yet. I hope when it is shown in the Bay Area they will
show all 12 corps. Kinda sad ending for GR and SCV's 25th.

Mick
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
From: bjh42543@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Glorfindel)
Subject: Sig
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 07:12:05 GMT

Not sure what happened, but my .sig didn't make into my post.

Brian Haag
Glorfindel
bjh42543@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu

Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
From: dci@cs.washington.edu (Donald Chinn)
Subject: Re: So what happened to SCV??
Organization: Computer Science & Engineering, U. of Washington, Seattle
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 01:42:19 GMT

In article <l8vshvINN3ls@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> admiral@m-5.Sun.COM (Michael Limprecht @Sun Micro Mt View. ) writes:
>Basically the subject line says it all. I saw the show in 
>Concord and Stockon and while it had holes in it, I thought
>it had a lot of possiblities to be a winner. 
>
>I got this mail from Ken Dowzycki later in the season...
>
>From dowzycki@andromeda.rutgers.edu Tue Aug  4 13:01:36 1992
>> After prelims, I ambushed their staff and they told me that the judges
>> told them that they cannot expect to move forward by moving backwards.
>> What a load of shit.  Apparently they are telling PR the same thing
>> because they are using 1812.  This was supposed to be an A-N-N-I-V-
>> E-R-S-A-R-Y celebration.  

To Ken's remark: just because it is an anniversary show doesn't give it some
special priviledge.  The judging still has to go on, and remember what the
judges are judging: overall talent and performance abilities.

>There were other comments made about the show during the year. Good
>and bad. Usually, SCV makes it's run later in the season but
>nothing this year. I was just wondering..
>
>- The corps seemed talented (especially the drum line). Was it the
>  show or am I mistaken?

It was both the show and the execution levels.  It wasn't as hard as, say,
the Carmen show (certainly not as hard as the Russian shows of '86 and '87).

>- Was the top six that much better?

Yes.  Although I must admit that Phantom, SCV, and Crossmen were close,
especially since we had three completely different styles of show!

>
>- Does it seem true that you can't win using some older material?
>  What does this say about the judging scheme and attitudes?
>  Could it have been this simple?

Yes.  I think older material can win, if the arrangements are challenging
and they are played to near perfection.  I don't want to offend anyone,
but Fiddler just doesn't compare to Respighi's Roman Trilogy or Perilous
Skies.

What it says about the judging system is that musicality is important.
With the talent levels of today's kids and staff, you really have to
play Grade 5 material to have a better chance of winning.  You can play
Grade 4 material, but you are probably shooting yourself in the foot
if your main goal is to win the big one (which, by the way, is a poor
attitude for a corps to have, in my opinion).  I don't even know how Fiddler
would rate on the difficulty scale -- probably 3 or 3 1/2.

-- Donald
From: plorch@mail1.cis.umn.edu (Patrick Lorch)
Subject: Re: VK bashing & DC North
Organization: University of Minnesota
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 02:11:09 GMT


I am really getting tired of the VK bashing! Drum corps is meant to be enter-
taining as well as competitive (I think entertainment is MORE important than
competition). And NOBODY can deny that VK never fails to entertain. Are the
gimmicks REALLY a quick grasp for GE, or for crowd approval? And if the crowd
approves, then WHY NOT?  Perhaps you personally don't like them, but there are
many drum corps fans, and non-drum corps fans, who love their antics, and if
they, VK, feels that that is the direction they wish to take their corps, I  
think they at least can be respected for that. They are in no way bringing 
drum corps down as a whole, but in fact I believe that they make drum corps
more accessible to newer fans who know nothing about brass, visual, and GE
captions, but only know what they think is entertaining.  


BTW, anyone in Madison on Saturday, catch the standstill performance of 
Minnesota Brass Inc. Senior corps at the DCI Foundation dinner at 5:00! All are
invited to see the performance at the Union South at UW, just NW of Camp
Randall. 

					Pat Lorch
From: streuer_d@cubldr.colorado.edu
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
Subject: Re: POPCORN
Date: 20 Aug 92 23:46:42 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

Boy, I was just thinking about something like this.  With all this talk
about fixing, and lousy judging, etc. why not give a voice to the people
who actually SUPPORT corp - the fans!  However, I would like to see this
just not as a one time shot, but as a future judging standard.

I don't know where the poster of this info felt that allowing the fans
to participate would mean regression to past marching techniques and simple
music.  What would be nice, and I believe is intended, is to let the 
audience have a voice as to what they enjoy.

Most people, who are not drum corp nuts, truly enjoy the entertainment value
of a competition with the competition secondary.  For example, all this
VK bashing is out of line, because a lot of non-corp people look forward
to see the corp "that wears the red sneakers."  It's the entertainment value
that draws and usually keeps the new viewer.  True, after being exposed to
drum corp for a while, a true fan appreciates the difference and stretch
of the more difficult music and marching.  But there is something to be said
about 'recognizing' a piece of music or seeing straight lines.  When they
showed the clip on the DCI national broadcast of Madison's Slaughter on Ten
Avenue, I got goose bumps.  One, because it was something from the past and
two, you could really hear them blasting those notes and you knew it was
good because you were FAMILIAR with the tune.

Let's not make drum corp an elitist sport, keep it within reach of everyone.
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
From: tmv@blitzen.uucp (26129-vandewater)
Subject: Re: DCI Politics (I hate DCI Admin.)
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 14:54:13 GMT

In article <1992Aug16.203112.1@vax1.umkc.edu>, cputnam@vax1.umkc.edu writes:
Nick writes....
> Now, I'm not crying because the Devils
> didn't win, even though they should have.  I just thought that the Cavaliers
> show was about as boring as any drum corps show I've seen.  
> I felt that it should have
> been between the Devils and Star.  The Cavies should have been fourth.  

Nick,

I don't know who should have won, but I agree with the Devils placement..
actually, I would have moved Madison over BD in finals.  BD's show
was nice, but not of championship material.  I saw them low then high.
When I saw them low, I thought they would VERY good....but when I saw
them high, their drill and the GE effects did not compare at all to
Star or the Cadets.  For the first two minutes of the show, they literally
have NO drill...some people in the upper deck were actually saying "OK,
you can play, but can you march please?" much to my astonishment.
Anyway, I like the way they changed from the last two years....this was
my favorite Devils show in at least 5 years... 

I really liked Star's show, but by the end of the show the "rah rah
America" theme got old to me.  I did talk to Bill Cook during prelims
and he was a REALLY NICE GUY!  So please stop the corporate sponsorship
bashing....drum corps could use more people like him!!!

Tom
---


Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
From: xklh@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Krista Lyn Haggert)
Subject: Re: The Star of Indiana, HATE
Followup-To: Star
Reply-To: xklh@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 21:45:13 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.210249.12676@beaver.cs.washington.edu> dci@cs.washington.edu (Donald Chinn) writes:
>
>It's not clear to me what relevance this has on the discussion, but
>as I have stated in an earlier post, I have never marched corps, which
>may or may not make my opinions on anything more rational, although I'd
>like to hear how you believe having marched in drum corps influences
>your outlook on things.  I am always willing to get more info on the
>topic of drum corps, and I am always intrigued by people's opinions and
>attitudes towards things in drum corps.
>

All I want to say is that the only reason I replied to the
original post was because somebody asked for reasons why
some people didn't like Star.

I was curious if you marchws in drumcorps.  I didn't
say that it was relevant and I DO NOT want to get
into a band vs. drumcorp debate because it is really
not worth it.

The girl in Star was embarassed because of the reputation
that Star has.  The reputation that I have been trying to
explain in my previous posts.

Krista
From: dowzycki@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ken Dowzycki)
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
Subject: Re: VK Bashing & DC North
Date: 20 Aug 92 14:38:39 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

mmcneill@duchamp.ncsa.uiuc.edu (Michael Mcneill -Visualization) writes:



>>   >Wrong. How about GE - you know, that aspect that's worth 40 points?
>>   >Sure, none of the sections is a dominant force in the corps from
>>   >year to year, like, say, that drumline that took high drums in
>>   >'80,'81,'82 from.... gosh, was it the Bridgemen? But so what?  
>>
>>
>>     '80  27th and BD were robbed
>>I disagree - the Bridgemen played a great show at finals.  I was blown away
>>by 27 in prelims but Bridgemen had the better line.

>Actually in 1980 it was Spirit's line that was robbed.  They tied Bridge in 
>overall score, but the judges used the GE score to break the tie.  Naturally, 
>Bridgemen had the higher GE score and so they won High Drums.  Float was 
>teaching with Spirit then and the line was incredibly clean.  Remember ticks? 
>Spirit's line had 2 in finals that year! 


     Mike, you are absolutely correct and I stand corrected.  I even
went back to check and Spirit was indeed at the top of the heap in
drums that year.  

     I really wonder how any corps would be judged if there were
ticks today.  Do judges overlook flaws if they see something later
on in the program that impresses them?  Where as before they would
be ticked for the error and an impressive lick would just be watched
(credit given in exc. and exp. MAYBE) but do no harm.  Hence the
change to build up scoring.
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
From: peteo@Ingres.COM (THE OLDER I GET, THE BETTER I USED TO BE, SCV '81)
Subject: Re: So what happened to SCV??
Summary: 
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  
Keywords: 
Organization: ASK Computer Systems, Ingres Product Division
Date: 18 Aug 92 14:59:50 GMT

In article <l8vshvINN3ls@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM>, admiral@m-5.Sun.COM (Michael Limprecht @Sun Micro Mt  writes...
>Basically the subject line says it all. I saw the show in 
>Concord and Stockon and while it had holes in it, I thought
>it had a lot of possiblities to be a winner. 
> 
>I got this mail from Ken Dowzycki later in the season...
> 
>From dowzycki@andromeda.rutgers.edu Tue Aug  4 13:01:36 1992
>> After prelims, I ambushed their staff and they told me that the judges
>> told them that they cannot expect to move forward by moving backwards.
>> What a load of shit.  Apparently they are telling PR the same thing
>> because they are using 1812.  This was supposed to be an A-N-N-I-V-
>> E-R-S-A-R-Y celebration.  
> 
>(Thanks Ken for the updates.)
> 
>There were other comments made about the show during the year. Good
>and bad. Usually, SCV makes it's run later in the season but
>nothing this year. I was just wondering..
> 
>- The corps seemed talented (especially the drum line). Was it the
>  show or am I mistaken?
> 
>- Was G.R. just coasting in his last season? No real move at the
>  end. I heard they decided not to take the old guard uniforms
>  back east. etc.
> 
>- Did the judges really dislike the show that much?
> 
>- Was the top six that much better?
> 
>- Does it seem true that you can't win using some older material?
>  What does this say about the judging scheme and attitudes?
>  Could it have been this simple?
> 
>Opinions???
> 
>Please post replys to the net for all.
> 
>Oh yes, Conratulations to the Cavaliers! I always thought they were
>a class act.
> 
>Thanks,
> 
>Mick
>-------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Working is for saps."
>                - Bart Simpson
>-------------------------------------------------------------------
>uucp: {anywhere}!sun!admiral or admiral@m-5.Eng.Sun.COM
>-------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
..or is it a Gail thing to leave SCV in 7th his final year and have SCV
do what we did in '81, that is to say...win it all after a 7th place
showing the year before.  Wouldn't that be something.  The only corps to 
have broken the 7th place jinx twice AND win Nationals.  :-)

regards all...congrats! Cavies.....

\\peteo
SCV '81, Euph Platoon.

ps: Mike "boot" Rodriggs...send me email if you're out there..


Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
From: jovanovic-nick@CS.YALE.EDU (Nick Jovanovic)
Subject: semi-final results?
Organization: Yale University Computer Science Dept., New Haven, CT 06520-2158
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 18:03:55 GMT

Could someone post the DCI semi-final results from last night?

-Nick

Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
From: koreis@milton.u.washington.edu (Robert Koreis)
Subject: Off My Chest
Reply-To: koreis@u.washington.edu
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 00:27:19 GMT


Gee, we've got all off-season to hash and rehash what happened at
nationals.  Well, here's my start.

"Summer Music Games" my *&)%!  All these comparisons to the Olympics are
rridiculous.  What was wrong with DCI Championship, except for that it was
more honest and much less commercial.

Yes, I hate the politics too.  Maybe it can't be proved, but too much has
gone on over the years.  Anyone think Madison got a gift over SCV in '75? 
It will always be with us.  Sigh.

What's with the pomposity of Phantom?  Yes, I know they have always been
like this, but "Conductors"?  They're drum majors and should introduce
themselves as such.  Do they really think that a change in terminology
makes them better?  I wish their show would have been cut from the
broadcast.  It was obviously inferior to the following shows.  I miss the
days of a complete, twelve corps finals broadcast.  I feel cheated not
being able to see SCV but having to put up with Phantom.  AAARRGH!!!!!!

However, one thing I did like was the use of Danny Boy as the bed behind
the credit roll.  Very nostalgic.  The only thing better would have been
to close with an image of 27th.

Finally, a comment on the VK bashing.  The more the better.  Was anyone
else as offended as I with their mocking of SCV?  Worse yet for DCI to
feature it in the clips of the 7-12 corps.  Comparing them to St.
Anthony's is absurd.  VK is like the child who uses potty language,
trying to be cute and possibly to shock.  The traditional behavior of the
drum majors in sitting down at retreat is boorish at best.  They do not
have the style nor the respect for the activity and the other competitors
shown by the Bridgemen.  If you want legitimate drum corps satire, ask an
old-timer about the Openall Knights ("we never close").  

My overall impresssion of DCI this year?  Outside of Madison and BD,
where's the excitement?  I'll have to watch the tape again.

And so it goes.

Bob Koreis  Koreis@u.washington.edu