From: cw21219@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Crying Freeman)
Subject: Re: Ken's 4-Hit Touch of Death (and Bison's scissor...)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 15:58:55 GMT

jbw@ponder.csci.unt.edu (WEST JASON BRUCE) writes:

>In article <tmorris.724503021@bruny> tmorris@bruny.cc.utas.edu.au (Tim Morris) writes:
>>> [Stacks of unrelated stuff the last guy didn't bother deleting, deleted]
>>
>>>   Talk about missing the damn point.  FOr the last time I am whining about
>>>nothing.  I am simply stating the lack of balance in Ken/Ryus ability to
>>>kill you off one hit.  Not "take half your energy" - but kill you. And Ryu's
>>>3 hit does stun if you do it right.  I was just getting so sick of everyone
>>>calling Bison "cheap" when Ken/Ryu obviosly have more unbalanced abilities.

Why do you insist that only Ken/Ryu have the ability to kill you w/ combos?
There are plenty of characters who can do this. I play Guile and
know that if you land a four fierce combo on your opponent, you
can do another and they'll usually be either dead, or left with
a sliver of energy. IMO Guile's combos are second only to Ken's.

>>
>>Bison is cheap, because all his effective strategies rely on high-power,
>>no-skill moves.  If you're holding the machine using skill with, say,
>>Honda, and some guy punches in with Bison, then you *know* what to 
>>expect - torpedo/throw, scissor-kick combo, scissor-kick/throw, headstomp/
>          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>                1                2                    3

>1)  EASY to reverse.  If can't reverse this with Honda you suck.
>2)  No such thing.  After a scizzor-kick you can block no matter what.

I have a theory about this... I don't believe you can block no matter
what. (From both sides of it...) I noticed I'll usually get a crouching
forward in after certain situations. Mainly, if I hit the opponent
when they are in a vulnerable position such as a missed DP or tiger 
uppercut. I think the position that the opponent is in has something
to do with the "Bison combo".

>3)  He is far enough away after kick that you should be able to EASILY
>    reverse throw (especially with Honda's awesome extended range)


>>throw.  There's nothing wrong with that per se - these are Bison's best

>Headstomp/throw?  Man, I didn't anybody sucked *that* bad.

Hey, it works pretty good as a surprise move... Headstomp/swan dive/throw.
IMO harder to counter than HK/throw.

>>manouvers, it's just that any other character that relied on these
>>techniques to win would also be flamed just as Bison is.  If someone

>   Everything you mentioned can be mimicked by most other characters.
>Ken can short kick/throw.  Or HK then throw.  But you can reverse this
>so you don't call it cheap.  You don't know how to reverse Bison - so
>you call him cheap...it's that simple.  In the old days of classic
>when ticking started it was "SOOOO CHEAP!" - then counter throwing and
>counter ticking evolved...and everyone "ok, that's cool".  
>   It's the same thing with Bison.

I personally don't feel anything is cheap. But I do feel that your
arguments that Ken/Ryu have some sort of unfair advantage is ridiculous.
Sure, I believe they're some of the best characters in the game, but
so what? They're not unbeatable. I believe you have mentioned that
Dhalsim is your main character. As Dhalsim you should at WORST be
even with Ken and Ryu, and if you were half decent, you should have
an advantage over them. You can jump up and drill them during the delay
in their fireballs, you should have no problem throwing them after
the HK because of the long range throw... What are you complaining about?r

>>challenges with Ken, then in the back of your mind you're wary of
>>the 4-hitter, bun Ken will rarely land this combo on you if you're
>>any good.  Sure, it's not balanced that he has the potential.  But

>   Now THAT is funny.  Ken/Ryu won't hit you with a flying fierce "if you're
>any good" - but Bison can flame/throw you.  Sorry man, Bison's ticks are
>*much* easier to avoid.  With Ken/Ryu that one mistake can cost you 
>the round.  With Bison you get to try to reverse, then try again, and
>again, and again.

I've played Bison a bit, and no you CAN'T throw after he torpedoes. There
is a split second delay, even when you are in the corner. Try it. Play
Bison, do a fierce torpedo into your opponent in the corner and while you
are torpedoing, hold the joystick straight up. You will usually (not ALWAYS)
be able to jump up, avoiding the throw.

Also, how do you avoid the torpedo when you are on the ground in the middle
of the screen, say, after a throw?

>>with Bison, the cheese is flying thick and fast from the word go
>>until the end of the round, no matter who wins.  I'm just thankful

>   Do me a favor and attakc Bison from the proper distance with flying 
>roundhouse kicks.  Tell me how poerful he seems.  Throw in a couple
>throws after a blocked kick.  Bison sucks.

What's this crap about Bison not being able to counter throws? He's
got one of the longest range and powerful throws, IMO. When I play
Bison, I counter throw better than I do with Guile. 

>>that I can pick Guile or Ryu and beat most Bison's, imagine what
>>it's like for the intermediate players who don't stand a chance.

>   Any half-decent Z can kill Bison.  And any intermediate other character
>should be able to beat an *intermediate* Bison.  Now, if the Bison is 
>*good* - then you will have to be *good*.  That's how it works with
>everybody.  But I can honestly say I've never been beaten by a Bison of
>less skill than I.

I have played Bison and beaten players more "skilled" than me. Heck,
I've probably played Bison only a total of 20-30 times ever, and have
beaten people way more "skill" and experience with their characters.
Why? He's not that hard to play. If you know how to scissor kick,
know when to use the torpedo properly, then you are a *good* Bison.

Are you sure you know what the "CHEESE" really is? This is one of the
ugliest techniques, but quite effective, esp against certain characters.
The "CHEESE" only occurs when the opponent is trapped in the middle
of the "playing area" (away from the corners.) Usually it starts when
Bison throws the opponent into the middle of the playing area. Bison
then torpedoes at the opponent (who is still down) As soon as the
opponent gets up, he's  stuck in a block and takes maybe 3-4 blocked
clicks of energy. As soon as Bison comes out of the torpedo (which is
in the opposite corner, but a few inches away from the opponent, so
he can't counter) he does another fierce torpedo. This does usually
6 blocked clicks of energy, and he can repeat it again.

Yes, you can dragon punch out of it, but what if you are not Ken/Ryu?
This is especially effective against Blanka. The torpedo is fast enough
that you do NOT have time to stop it when it is coming back at you.

That is the true "CHEESE". I myself didn't believe it until I actually
saw it done, but yes it is UGLY!
 

>>
>>--
>>Tim Morris
>>

>And this skill to damage ratio is crap:
>  How hard is a 3 hitter stun combo with Ryu?  It took me about an hour
>to get down.  It takes a lot longer than that for Bison to learn
>spacing/timing and all that stuff for his moves.

It took me a few days to "master Bison". I've been playing Ken on and off
for a few months (never seriously) but I STILL can't do the four hit
combo. I bet there are lots of Ken players who have been playing the
game since the classic SF2 came out and still can't do four hit combos
consistently.

Yes I can do the 3 hit combo with Ryu (I assume you mean Roundhouse,
forward, fireball) but this is NOT a stun combo. It will only stun if 
you hit before the combo.

Your arguments are just totally ridiculous. In terms of becoming a "master"
Ken/Ryu are probably the hardes to master. The problem with Bison is
that there are too many scrubs making him look bad. The favorite character
of scrubs is definitely Bison. You just have to remember, these are the
same players that can't hit you with an aerial roundhouse if you were
just standing there. They learn how to torpedo and come in with a feeling
of power. 

>Ciao...


>                                              - Jason

-- 
 Kenneth C. Wang	| University Of Illinois Champaign-Urbana	
 			| Internet: c-wang@uiuc.edu