From: kane@buast7.bu.edu (Hot Young Star)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,ca.politics,ba.politics
Subject: Re: Against Our Will
Date: 27 Jul 92 16:33:22 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.misc
Organization: Astronomy Department, Boston University, Boston, MA, USA

In article <11400@optilink.UUCP> cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:

>2. I now have children, and I worry for their safety.  I have
>discovered, by reading soc.motss, and watching the coverage of
>gay parades, that there is substantial support for child molestation
>in the gay community -- perhaps not a majority, but certainly a
>large enough minority that there has been great reluctance to
>exclude groups like NAMBLA.

For anyone who's never read a Clayton Cramer article before, he's
been saying this for over a year now. Once his AIDS funding tirade
wore thin, he had to switch over to an even more controversial
issue in order to portray homosexual men in a bad light. He's toning
down his language now. At first, he would say in definitive terms,
"a majority" of homosexuals support child molestation. Now after having
found only _one_ who would defend pedophilia, out of thousands upon
thousands, he uses the strong qualifiers "perhaps" and "large enough".

>3. I have discovered, based on gay-positive textbooks and articles, 
>that homosexuals are disproportionately involved in child molestation.

What he found was that 80% of child molestation _incidents_ are men
abusing girls. He found that men who abuse boys molest them at a rate
which is 10 times higher than girls, perhaps because boys are on a
looser parental rein than girls are, perhaps because they are more
reluctant to report abuse. But the fact that boys collectively are the
victims of multiple-molesters much more than girls are, and the fact
that man-boy abuse only accounts for 20% of all incidents of molestation,
plus the statistic that only 21% of the men who abuse boys are exclusively
homosexual, together show that exclusive homosexuals only represent between
2 and 5% of the total number of child molesters.

>4. Nor is this just in books and articles.  I have acquaintances
>who were molested as kids.  One guy I know who was molested by his
>Scoutmaster at 10 would consider me and Phil Ronzone to be flaming
>liberals.  What causes gay-bashing?  Is it perhaps angry victims, 
>all grown up, and too inarticulate to express their fury except
>by violence?  It doesn't make it right, because they are doubtless
>attacking homosexuals who haven't molested anyone, but it should
>not be surprising that gay-bashing is on the increase now in 
>areas where homosexuality hasn't been a crime for many years.

I prefer to use Occam's razor here. A much simpler explanation would
be to say that increased bashing is a response to increased visibility.

>5. I have seen too much anecdotal evidence, and some poor quality
>statistical evidence, that homosexuality and child sexual and
>physical abuse are correlated.  It's not a big leap from, "molested
>as a child" to "confused sexuality."

I've heard an acquaintance of mine who is a sex therapist say that
97% of _all_ people come from what psychologists and sociologists
label "dysfunctional families". This acquaintaince says this phenomenon
is uncorrelated to the sexual orientation of children.

>I don't care whether they are "unmanly" or not.  I see no reason for
>our society to try to make a self-destructive lifestyle accepted.

Speak for yourself.

Speak for your God-damned self.

>You don't even CONSIDER the possibility that homosexuality is either
>a choice, or a form of arrested sexual development (one of the
>psychiatric theories now out of vogue).  If it's either one, then
>presenting homosexuality in a positive light will encourage it, won't
>it?

I realize this is a cliche'd response, but why is it that people who
profess heterosexuality always bring up this choice issue? Do you
Clayton actually think you CHOSE your sexual orientation? How do you
know that your present heterosexuality (or bisexuality, whatever your
actual orientation may be) is not merely a stage you are going through?
Have you totally discounted the possibility that one day you might
wake up and find yourself attracted to other men?

And what, pray tell, is wrong with encouraging homosexuality to those
who already self-identify?

When I have kids, I'm going to tell them that chances are that they'll
probably prefer the opposite sex, but if they find themselves occasionally
attracted to members of the same sex, as I believe the vast majority of
us are at times, that they shouldn't feel guilty, no matter what they
hear from their peers or read on USENET from articles written by curmudgeons
who hole themselves up in pseudointellectual fortresses like discarded
gods whose sermons no longer attract the attention they demand.

And if my kids should turn out with a predominantly or exclusively homosexual
orientation, I'm going to encourage openness and honesty, and try to promote
a good sense of self-worth in them as protection against members of society
who will do their goddamned best to convince them that they are sick.

>You also don't consider the possibility that gay teen suicide might
>be caused, not by societal pressures, but by whatever was the fundamental
>cause of their homosexuality.  Has anyone ever studied suicide rates
>above sexually abused kids?

Spoken just like someone who refuses to see the light. If suicidal tendencies
are a fundamental part of homosexual orientation, as you suggest, why might
these tendencies peak in teen years, when ALL of us experienced the greatest
amount of social angst? Why don't you see gay elders committing suicide any
more than straight elders? After all, they have the same orientation, what's
preventing these "organic" suicidal tendencies from surfacing?

Open your eyes, Clayton.

>When you and your wife have kids, and you start finding boys who have
>been molested by gay men (as happened recently to a friend's nephew
>in the East Bay), you'll start to appreciate the fear that
>those of us with kids now have.

As the studies you've read have shown, 80% of molestation victims are
girls; of the remaining 20 percent who are boys, 21% of their molesters
are homosexuals. So there is a one in five chance that your friend's
nephew's molester was gay.

May I suggest some references to recommend to you on the subject of
pedophilia? Maybe it would clear up some remaining misconceptions on
your part.

Brian.
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