HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: crystal@glia.biostr.washington.edu (crystal)
Subject: Re: Sorry about that (I'll figure out how to post yet! *grin*)
Organization: University of Washington
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1992 02:54:57 GMT

In <1992Apr16.122755.28446@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> Steve Salter <ssalter@silver.ucs.indiana.edu> writes:

>crystal@glia.biostr.washington.edu (crystal) explains:

> 
>>1) I have tried 12-step programs in the past. Couldn't get past step 2. I'm
>>   an atheist, and there's just too much God-talk that I can't agree with.
>> "Letting go and letting God" is bizarre concept to me. Letting go and letting
>>   ME makes sense.  Hence I see 12-step as religious.

>Hmmm, I see your viewpoint but I interpreted the "god" stuff a bit
>differently. I substitute the word "higher power" for "god". Works for
>me. I tried for 15 years to do it by myself but it wasn't until I was
>completely *down* that I was able to start recovery. I did go through
>treatment and was active in AA for the first few months. But, neither
>treatment or AA could have helped me before *I* was ready to surrender
>my ego. When I "let go" I let go of my controlling behavior and just
>try to *be*.

>>   hear people say "I've been in this group for 6 years and it works!" I have
>>   to wonder how many more years will they be there before they can stop the
>>   group (a compulsion in itself).  I did it in one. NO I AM NOT STOPPING MY
>>   RECOVERY - it is an ongoing process.  But I am happy, healthier, more

>Hmmm, you sound rather proud of doing it in a year, crystal. I was
>always proud of my own "Strength" when I was using. I can't get too
>proud of my progress...I still go to a meeting now and then to remind
>myself of who I am.


Actually, I'm more *shocked* than anything! I keep emphasizing the one year
bit because I think it's nice for people to know that it doesn't *have* to 
take forever...(even if it seems like it...)
 
I STILL have problems to fix, and I'm still working on them. I will be working
on them the rest of my life. But finding my core issue (which is what the year
refers to) was the key to where I am now. Once it was found, peace ensued. Now
I can work on things without driving my friends BONKERS with my co-dep traits.
:>
 
Oh, and for the record, (I'm gonna hate myself for saying this on a WORLD net...
but...
 
My "higher power" was originally an inner flame that I could feel burning inside. And then in Jan my "imaginary childhood pal" started to infiltrate my thoughts. He was there at my core waiting to protect me and guide me and that's when I
realized he was ME - my lost and denied self.  Now I jokingly refer to my
"higher power" as a big blue Pterydactyl named Terry (Ptery) - but really, it's
ME.  
 
*dodges the men with the white coats while laughing hysterically*
  
*grin*

Crystal
 ;>
>Steve
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: puckett@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov (Jim Puckett)
Subject: Re: Two programs/two sponsors
Organization: NASA/MSFC
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 13:36:09 GMT

joannee@sco.COM (Joanne Eglash) writes:

<stuff deleted>

>She just reiterated that I should do only AA meetings. HOW do I
>explain to her?  Or should I?  I do value her and don't want to lose
>her as a sponsor. 

I 've been reading some of the other responses...

sfunny thing - I have yet _another_ way of seeing it, but it kinda comes
out the same...

i've been sober in AA now 2533 days. My sponsor has been around just about
twice that long. Usually he just listens to me. Sometimes he shares how 
he feels the same way, or maybe what he did then, etc. And every so often
he will tell me to _do_ this, or _do_ that, and no damn arguement 8-)!


This seems to be exactly what I need. I have a Higher Power, but there are
times when I can't hear him at all! This is when he chooses to speak 
through my sponsor (tee hee) - and, when he speaks through my sponsor, 
HE HOLLERS! (8-)

I have to have a sponsor that, when the chips are down, I will shut up
and do exactly as he says. The willingness to follow someone else's 
directions is important to what little humility I have.

I have had sponsors that I was not willing to follow their instructions,
and so had to change and get a new one. I've had the one I've got now for
over four years. I love that ol' poop....8-)

If my sponsor told me to quit going to OA, I would fire him. I would still
play golf with him, but I would have to get a new AA sponsor. I don't need
an AA sponsor who _understands_ OA, just one who will not _interfere_ with
my OA program.(been in OA 16 months)

love and service,

jim p.

-- 
Jim Puckett    NTI    puckett@freedom.msfc.nasa.gov     
Huntsville,AL (205)544-8457

*****!Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty!*****
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: Steve Salter <ssalter@silver.ucs.indiana.edu>
Subject: Re: Sorry about that... ;<
Keywords: sponsor followup
Organization: OFSA
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 12:20:12 -0500

joni@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (joni.dunlap) remarks:

>In article <crystal.703126214@glia> crystal@glia.biostr.washington.edu (crystal) writes:
>>I am one of those who used "self will" in my recovery.
>>I did NOT use professional help.
>>I can't stand the 12-step religions.
>
>A 12 step program is not a religion and if you had any experience in one
>you would know that. SO don't condem anything that you don't know about!!

Perhaps crystal does feel as if 12 step programs are "religions". You
(and I) don't consider them to be religions but that does not make her
opinion invalid.


>Recovery from what? Sexual abuse is not recover from an addiction. 

Oh, I dunno, it CAN be...personally, I try to stay away from blanket
statements like that, Joni.

>in those books but guess what I continued to use and use and use. Nothing
>helped me until I came to AA. Know with a clear mind  I can read these books
>again and maybe get somthing out of them. I too have found out in the last
>year that I was sexually abused as a child.  I feel for you having to go
>through it alone. I have a support group of people around me. Many who have

Different strokes for different folks...hmmmm, did crystal say she
went through it "alone"? I thought she just mentioned she didn't do
any professional treatments or 12 stepping.

>help. I now find that it is the opposite I am a stronger individual if I
>ask for help.  The only way that I can learn to my fullest ability is to
>ask people to show me how they did it.

Through surrender lies the ultimate strength. 

Steve
From: joni@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (joni.dunlap)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Two programs/two sponsors
Date: 10 Apr 92 22:42:12 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: AT&T

In article <s0eg6INNq6v@agate.berkeley.edu> ronan@codon2 (Karen Ronan;161 GPBB;x2-0884) writes:
>In article <23642@scorn.sco.COM> joannee@sco.COM (Joanne Eglash) writes:
>>
>>I would appreciate some feedback on the following situation.
>>I am in two 12-step programs, OA and AA.  I just met with my
>>new AA sponsor.  She wants me to go to four meetings a week,
>>which is fine. But, when she asked me what meetings I go to now,
>>I listed my OA meetings and AA meetings. "YOU don't need OA!" she

I know that for me when I first came into the program I wanted to fixx
everything about me and it had to be fixed NOW!! When I told my sponsor
that I wanted to go to OA, she suggested that I wait until I had a year 
in the program. She said "you can't fix everything at once, so just concentrate
on staying sober for the first year." I took her suggestion and as soon as
I got my year I went to OA. What I found out is that I was not ready for it.
That until I feel good about myself on the inside I will not be able to
change the outside. I feel that sticking to AA will get me to the point
where I will feel good about myself and eventually be able to face my bulima
and complusive overeating. 

I don't know what to tell you about your sponsor, but my first reaction
was to fire her. I then started thinking that maybe she sees somthing in 
you that you are not seeing in yourself. Maybe you are trying to juggle too
many things at one time? I know I can really get myself into that kind of
situation. Like I'm on some sort or a mission. :) On the other hand maybe
you have sparked somthing inside of herself that she does not want to look
at. If you are trying to address your complusive overeating problem and
she has one how can she sponsor some one that is more together than 
herself? Just like the way old friends acted when I came into the program.
"You don't have a drinking problem you just have to give up the cocaine
and everything will be all right." They don't want to admit that they have
a problem. If she has a problem then that means I must have a problem.

I hope you don't have too hard of a time making the decision. The bottom
line is always up to you. I try to listen to my gut feeling. I find that
that one is usually right.

Joni :)
From: pisarevsky@b56vxg.kp01.kodak.com (Arkady Pisarevsky)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Learning to Trust
Date: 3 Apr 92 13:08:11 GMT
Reply-To: pisarevsky@b56vxg.kp01.kodak.com
Organization: Big Yellow Box
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-a4

In article <1992Apr03.052845.3916@Veritas.COM>, rdh@Veritas.COM (Robert Hartman) writes...
>In article <ktmlpdINN5p3@male.EBay.Sun.COM> drh@spock.EBay.Sun.COM writes:
>>   I got burned by 'friends' back in '85 and dropped out of that social 
>>circle. Since I wasn't born in this country, didn't go to high school here, 
>>and really didn't fit in with other crowds, I kept to myself.
>>
>>My response is to suggest listening to "I am a rock" by Simon & Garfunkle.

    I am the one who started this thread. I listened to this song several 
times this morning. Unfortunately I don't have a copy of the lyrics and 
some parts of the song are hard to catch by just listening because they 
sorta run together. The song does describe quite accurately my behavior 
patterns, but I fail to see how it can help me modify them. Is it in the 
lyrics that I don't get ?

>me to ask other people for help.  I can usually find help at a meeting.

    Since I started reading this group I looked into the meetings in this 
area. Actually went to one of them. It was a group called 'Becoming Me' 
and was based on some sort of 4-step program. The program was not really 
explained and it seemed like a place where one went to vent. I was looking
for some discussion and common effort to find solutions to common problems.
I sort of get it here, in this newsgroup, but the level of interaction
is limited by the medium used. That group just didn't feel right, and I 
didn't go back. I haven't tried CoDa yet, and from what I hear on this forum 
I shouldn't try AA. 

    Writing this last paragraph helped me organize my thoughts some. Thanks
for listening if you made it this far.

> 
>-r
**-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-**
**   Disclaimer:  Eastman Kodak Co. does not support all of my views.    **
**   EMAIL:  pisarevs@kodak.com                                          **
**-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-**
From: ronan@codon2 (Karen Ronan;161 GPBB;x2-0884)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Two programs/two sponsors
Date: 9 Apr 1992 03:43:02 GMT
Organization: University of California
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: codon2.berkeley.edu

In article <23642@scorn.sco.COM> joannee@sco.COM (Joanne Eglash) writes:
>
>I would appreciate some feedback on the following situation.
>I am in two 12-step programs, OA and AA.  I just met with my
>new AA sponsor.  She wants me to go to four meetings a week,
>which is fine. But, when she asked me what meetings I go to now,
>I listed my OA meetings and AA meetings. "YOU don't need OA!" she

Your story, Joanne, gives me a physical reaction!
I have never had a sponsor, nor ever been one.
One of the many reasons is that I observed that there is
apparently no training for sponsoring whatsoever. The people
who volunteer for this position are not necessarily qualified
and some of them might be very controlling or on ego-trips.
What right does someone have to tell you what you NEED??!?!?!?!
Sorry, but this really rankles me and I want to support your
adult decision to attend whatever meetings YOU WANT, not what
someone else wants FOR YOU.
It is one thing for a sponsor to give *FEEDBACK* which means
her reaction, to which you can then do whatever you want.
What this person has done, is issued you a directive. I find
that inappropriate (In my opinion).
>
>I tried to explain to my AA sponsor that I really am a compulsive
>eater, even if I look "normal" (5 feet, 3 inches tall, 120 pounds). 
>She just reiterated that I should do only AA meetings. HOW do I
>explain to her?  Or should I?  I do value her and don't want to lose
>her as a sponsor. 

My explanation would be: "I think I want to go to both meetings.
Thanks for your thoughts. See you later."

Good luck!
Karen


"Ubi caritas et amor				Karen Ronan
Deus ibi est."					ronan@codon2.berkeley.edu
(Where there is compassion and love,
God is.)
From: puckett@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov (Jim Puckett)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: This is Great!
Date: 17 Apr 92 13:58:08 GMT
Organization: NASA/MSFC

johnn@ops.Sun.COM (John Nauman) writes:

>anymore. The road ahead seems narrower and what worked yesterday is not
>necessarlily going to work today. I have been thinking about how more is constantly being revealed. So, I guess that will give me something to work on during year three.

>Thanks again for all your input ( everybody ).

>                                 John 

Yeah, John. As Saint Cindy in Copperas Cove, Texas told me, she said,
'Jim, your skin gets tighter in this program.' After a while there's not
as much room in here, for me and all these character defects 8-)

love and service,

jim p.

-- 
Jim Puckett    NTI    puckett@freedom.msfc.nasa.gov     
Huntsville,AL (205)544-8457

*****!Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty!*****
From: debrag@mattys.EBay.Sun.COM (Debra Giberson)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: DRINK NOW!
Date: 8 Apr 92 19:37:49 GMT
Reply-To: debrag@mattys.EBay.Sun.COM
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: mattys.ebay.sun.com

Only for those who want it......Get it?

Debra
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: schmitt@convex.com (Herb Schmitt)
Subject: Stop drinking step?
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 12:48:19 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

I had a newcomer stump me last nite. After 2-1/2 years in AA, and having
worked the steps and sponsored various individuals, and *THINKING* I knew
what the program was all about, I had a newcomer stump me!

All he asked was: "What step do you stop drinking"!....."You all say that
the primary purpose of this program is to stop drinking, then you come out
with 12 steps that say nothing <literally> about stopping drinking!"

Of course I am NOT really stumped in my own mind. I know that this is a
process that is different for everyone who attempts the principles of the
program. I happened to stop two days BEFORE I came back into AA. I know
that not drinking is only a small part of the program, yet its everything.

BUT HE HAD A VALID QUESTION...and I personally think that AA might just do
the newcomer an injustice in this regard. Imagine sitting in the first few
meetings and being confused. Oh, I know what some of you are thinking...
"We all go through it and it comes eventually...don't mess with what works
and has worked for so many years." But folks, even the tradition's and the
step's wording in their current form evolved from misinterpretation and 
misuse. 

I would like some thoughts tossed back at me.

Herb
From: rdh@Veritas.COM (Robert Hartman)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Stop drinking step?
Date: 14 Apr 92 21:20:54 GMT
Organization: VERITAS Software

In article <schmitt.703255699@convex.convex.com> schmitt@convex.com (Herb Schmitt) writes:
>I had a newcomer stump me last nite. After 2-1/2 years in AA, and having
>worked the steps and sponsored various individuals, and *THINKING* I knew
>what the program was all about, I had a newcomer stump me!
>
>All he asked was: "What step do you stop drinking"!....."You all say that
>the primary purpose of this program is to stop drinking, then you come out
>with 12 steps that say nothing <literally> about stopping drinking!"
>
>BUT HE HAD A VALID QUESTION...and I personally think that AA might just do
>the newcomer an injustice in this regard. Imagine sitting in the first few
>meetings and being confused. Oh, I know what some of you are thinking...
>"We all go through it and it comes eventually...don't mess with what works
>and has worked for so many years." But folks, even the tradition's and the
>step's wording in their current form evolved from misinterpretation and 
>misuse. 
>
>I would like some thoughts tossed back at me.
>
>Herb

My first answer would be that one stops somewhere during steps 1-3.

My second answer would be that keeping the focus on the pain and insanity
underneath the addiction makes more sense, which is why the program is
structured the way it is.

Even so, I think you make a good point.

To me, the principles of the program are more important than the exact wording
in the books and literature.  What's been written is always an attempt to
express those principles.  But the writings aren't the principles themselves.
If more thought and time reveal a clearer way to convey them, then why not
change the wording here and there, after all due care, deliberation, and group
conscience?

Practically though, it's a mighty big group to poll.

-r
From: ronan@codon3 (Karen Ronan;161 GPBB;x2-0884)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: my sponsor fired me!
Date: 13 Apr 92 14:47:20 GMT
Article-I.D.: agate.sc6toINN3o2
Organization: University of California
NNTP-Posting-Host: codon3.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Apr13.123457.1486@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov> puckett@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov (Jim Puckett) writes:
>
>1. I know what is best for me
>	vs.
>2. I don't know what is best for me.
>
>One of these is psychological. The other one is spiritual.

I don't see a major difference between psychology and
spirituality.  Information, awareness, and knowledge can
make huge changes in our "sick" attitudes. Sometimes we
imagine that our defense mechanisms and fantastic thinking
is how it is, forever, and possibly the only way to function.
Some of the information I got was about spirit, about psychology,
about interpersonal relations. You can get that information out
of the "Big Book" and you can CERTAINLY get it elsewhere.

I've never read the Big Book and don't intend to. I'm not
an alcoholic and I am not interested in reading about drinking.
That's ME. Other people want and need that book. But it isn't
the only source of life in the universe. Information and joy
are available all over the place. Freedom is available - happiness
is available.  There are many roads to freedom.

Spirituality is all over the earth, all through the history
of mankind.  Do you think because a person doesn't follow A.A>
precepts, that they are prevented from awareness of Spirit?

Best wishes,
Karen

ronan@codon2.berkeley.edu

"Where the seller of stars, for a penny or two, will sell your
Heart's desire to you."
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: puckett@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov (Jim Puckett)
Subject: Re: RULES....
Organization: NASA/MSFC
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 12:27:26 GMT

diana@swsrv1.cirr.com (Diana Sparks) writes:

>In article <1992Apr6.164050.18822@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> Susan.E.Cox@dartmouth.edu (Susan E. Cox) writes:
>>I have been recently reading about getting in touch with the
>>subconcious mind.
>>The theory is that the subconcious mind understands goals and so you
>>have to give it firm rules to follow and it will achieve the goals you
>>want-sort of like programming a computer. 

stuff deleted

>Actually, the 'oldtimers' in AA seemed to know this. I have been told 
>stories about how members of the first 100 sober drunks were 'strongly 
>encouraged' (made to!) do all physical tasks differently--put on the 
>left sock and shoe first instead of the right, shave (yes!!) with the 
>other hand (whichever they didn't use), etc.  It was one of Dr. Silkworth's 
>ideas, I believe.  Maybe they had something there, huh?  There was 
>a friend of mine who would have been sober 45 years this year if he 
>had lived, and he was told to do all that stuff.

>Just a little bit of history......


I kinda assumed tht when they said 'We tried to hold on to some of our old
ideas and the result was nil until we let go absolutely' that they meant
_just_that_ 8-) :that _all_ old ideas had to go. Some of them we may pick 
up again, but it ain't _my_ job (as sopmeone asking for sanity 8-) to 
figure out which of my ideas are good ones and which aren't - they _all_
have to go! This includes the kind of music I listen to, the way I dress,
etc.

	And it ain't just for newcomers, either, at least not in my case.
I still have to change a lot, *just to get myself out of a rut* - loosened
up, so to speak, so God can put me back down where He wants to..


'Everything needs to be turned upside down every once in a while. It lets
in air, and light'
	Robert A. Heinlein

love and service,

jim p.

-- 
Jim Puckett    NTI    puckett@freedom.msfc.nasa.gov     
Huntsville,AL (205)544-8457

*****!Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty!*****
From: rkg@rkg.austin.ibm.com (Richard K. Gebhardt)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: OA Abstinence, is measuring your food compulsive?
Date: 9 Apr 92 18:01:16 GMT
Reply-To: gebhardt@ausvmq.vnet.ibm.com (Richard K. Gebhardt)
Organization: IBM AWD, Austin

I've just spent a few minutes reading the latest (March) "Shades of
Grey" and it has evoked some thoughts for me.  I have long heard the
argument that weighing and measuring you food and committing it
to you sponsor is just a consession to the obsession. ... That as
long as I do that, I am still obsessed by food.  I would be willing
to hear from those who agree with that, and I promise no (conscious) 
judgement from me on your response.  Here is Austin, there seem to be
two view points within the OA community here:

1.  Get right with God, work the Steps and you food will take care of
    itself.  Do food plans if you need to, but the goal seems to
    be to abandon it when you can.  Your current weight is not as
    important as how you feel about it.

2.  Get you food in order first and foremost; use a food plan to do
    it.  Don't deviate from that no matter what.  Work the Steps and
    show up for life.  When you reach your goad weight, adjust your
    food plan to stay there.  

These are broad generalizations, of course, but I am intrigued
about the views.  I am sponsoring one person who is following
the H.O.W. food plan and program, and she is doing very well, she
has years of recovery in AA and is spiritual to a fault.  She was
not willing to try grey sheet, but there is really little difference.
She will be at her goal weight in a month or two, and I want to be
well schooled on the different views.    

My words do not reflect my employer's position and visa versa.
....................................................................
Richard K. Gebhardt         | ibm-unix: rkg@rkg.austin.ibm.com
IBM AIX OEM/ISV Tech. Supt. |   ibm-vm: 
Internal Zip 2830           | internet: gebhardt@ausvmq.vnet.ibm.com
11400 Burnet Rd.            |    voice: (512) 838-4683
Austin, Texas, 78758        |