HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jcmorris@mwunix.mitre.org (Joe Morris)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Computer-related license tags
Date: 16 Apr 92 18:06:20 GMT
Article-I.D.: mwunix.jcmorris.703447580
Organization: The MITRE Corporation

"Joseph M. Newcomer" <jn11+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:

>The initials of my undergrad school are SVC (St. Vincent College---never
>mind, I outgrew it).  I was in the class of 1967.  I therefore had a
>plate that said "SVC 67".  I then went on to grad school at CMU.  About
>the middle of the semester, I was approached by one of the programmers:
>"I've been thru the manuals, the PLMs, and I finally broke down and read
>the operating system code.  And I *CAN'T* figure out what Supervisor Call
>67 does.  I tried it as decimal and hex.  It's driving me crazy..."

>I never saw anyone so totally pissed off when I explained what it stood
>for.

Clearly he needed to have someone translate it for him.

SVC x'67' (decimal 103) is the XLATE function in MVS, used by Data
Management to do EBCDIC/ASCII translation.

Of course, 'way back then there wasn't an MVS, so maybe the programmer
can be excused for not knowing its function calls.  (SVC 67 (decimal) is
QPOST, which was part of the long-gone (and good riddance) QTAM subsystem.)

Joe Morris
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 03:34:49 -0400 
From: "Joseph M. Newcomer" <jn11+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Slashed O

When I worked on IBM equipment (1620, 1440), we slashed the letter O and
left the digit 0 unslashed.

In the ASCII world, however, possibly as a consequence of the TTY28/35
culture, the zeroes were slashed and the letter was unslashed.  

It's a cultural thing.  I'll bet most IBM COBOL programmers still slash the
letters.  

The reasoning was that digits were more frequent than letters
so the simpler form was used for the digits.  That was back before HLLs.
                            joe
From: perry@Unify.Com (Perry Clarke)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Sinclair Lore Query
Summary: Sinclair home-computers
Keywords: n
Date: 16 Apr 92 02:25:35 GMT
Article-I.D.: Unify.hj9il0w
Organization: Unify Corporation

rivero@mdcbbs.com wrote:

>
>  Found a working Sinclair with memory expansion and some tape programs 
>for $5 at a yard sale over the weekend. Anyone have interesting stories about
>this little machine?
>
>

Ah, but *which* Sinclair did you find?  The great man created several
different models:

	Sinclair Mk 14 - My very first computer.  SC/MP processor, 256 (?)
	                 bytes of memory, hex keypad and display.
	Sinclair ZX80  - Touch sensitive (if thats the right word) keyboard
	Sinclair ZX81  - Better keyboard
	Sinclair Spectrum - Chiclet keyboard, 16KB memory (?)
	Sinclair Spectrum 48 - My second computer (brand loyalty or
			       what?).  Z80 (?), 48KB memory, keyboard
			       from hell (each key had about four
			       functions).

I am sure that the above list is incomplete.  My very first Sinclair was a
Sinclair Cambridge scientific calculator.  It was one of the first
affordable (Sinclair's guiding principle) pocket calculators and still
(IMHO) a paragon of design.

Am I correct in thinking that most of the "Timex/Sinclair" models sold in
the US were ZX80s?

His first consumer electronics item was (as far as I am aware) a LED wrist
watch.  In the last 2 months he has introduced what he describes as the
world's first practical electric bicycle, the Zike (personally, I prefer
his computers to his modes of transport).

--
Perry Clarke                   perry@unify.com                 (916) 928 6287

Unify Corporation, Sacramento, CA                   I speak only for Me, Inc.
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: dbrooks@osf.org (David Brooks)
Subject: Re: You know you've been in hack mode too long when...
Organization: Open Software Foundation
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 16:31:54 GMT

Last night (well, this morning), I was trying to make myself go to sleep.
All I could think was that I had to run imake first, somehow.

I've been hacking X too long.
-- 
400 72 translate/L{lineto}def/C{curveto}def 0 0 moveto 0 24 L 9 24 10 0 5 0 C
18 14 L 21 -6 23 0 27 16 C 32 0 L 37 0 45 12 45 24 C 45 0 L 45 24 L 54 22 50 20
46 10 C 59 9 51 6 49 0 C 58 10 66 -4 78 4 C 87 20 L 93 0 99 3 104 6 C 108 0 L
2 setlinejoin stroke showpage (David Brooks, Open Software Foundation) pop
From: dagbrown@napier.waterloo.edu (Dave Brown)
Subject: Re: You kyou've been in hack mode too long ...
Keywords: VMS sleep logicals
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 18:05:14 GMT


I remember one time I was trying to get to sleep and I couldn't
because I didn't know the right VMS logical--I
kept typing SHOW LOGICAL *SLEEP* and never getting
anything but 
%SHOW-S-NOTRAN, no translation for logical name *SLEEP*...

		Dave
		dagbrown@{descartes, leibniz, lambert, etc}.waterloo.edu
From: JHB4@psuvm.psu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Slashed o's (o's, not zeros)?
Date: 15 Apr 92 01:36:22 GMT
Organization: Penn State University

Back in the very old days (we coded programs on keypunch sheets and had them
put on cards) we had the option of slashing whichever we prefered.  I used a
burroughs system which had a printer that slashed o's It was a bit strange.

John Benesole                     "It's easier to get forgiven than it is to
jhb4@psuvm.psu.edu                 get permission"
                                      - Admiral Grace Hopper -
From: s902113@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au (Luke Mewburn)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Makefile vs. makefile
Keywords: Makefile makefile why
Date: 6 Apr 92 09:16:07 GMT
Organization: RMIT Computer Centre, Melbourne Australia.

grog@adagio.UUCP (Greg Lehey) writes:

>In article <bof.702254310@midget.saar.de> bof@midget.saar.de (John Bof) writes:

>>Does anybody know why everybody prefers 'Makefile' over 'makefile'?
>>I can't see a reason for that, so it certainly has something to do
>>with history.

>My understanding (and the reason for *my* preference) is that it makes
>it easier to find in an ls listing, because it's up the front and not
>in a maze of twisty little .o files, all alike.

	Nah, the real reason is that we are all lazy, and with filename
completion in our shells, we just do:
> M<tab>
	and get
> Makefile
(unless there is a bloody 'MANIFEST' file:-), instead of getting no match
because there are lots of files starting with 'm' (With that infernal
beep-from-hell on multiple matches, unless you turn it off :-) (note,
this is for tcsh/csh freaks - other shells may have filename completion
too - I dunno, cause I don't use them.)

>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Greg Lehey		         | Public access UNIX available - try BSDI 
> LEMIS         			 | out on our machine! Mail and news 
>W-6324 Schellnhausen 2           | connections available
>Germany				 | Fax: +49-6637-1489
>Tel: +49-6637-1488               | Mail: grog%lemis@Germany.Eu.net
>Claimer: The opinions expressed *are* the opinions of LEMIS
-- 

"...(and) We've heard how teen prostitution, pregnancy,        Luke Mewburn
drug use, cults, runaways, suicide and poor hygiene are          s902113@
sweeping this nation. We thought you might like to share          minyos.
with the committee any particular *causes* you might see            xx.
for those latter problems...                                       rmit.
"  I dunno, Maybe the proliferation of narrow, suffocating          oz.
zealotry masquerading as parenting in this country."                au
              Steve Dallas, 'Bloom County'.
From: jlowrey@skat.usc.edu (John 'Fritz' Lowrey)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: You know you've been in hack mode too long when...
Date: 16 Apr 1992 12:31:52 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: skat.usc.edu

	I've found myself in (non-computer related) situations where I 
start thinking that whatever I am doing, it could be done more easily
in a shell script.

						Fritz

-- 
        "I've never seen a purple cow,         | J. "Fritz" Lowrey
         I hope I never see one,               | USC Computer Consulting
         But, let me tell you, here and now,   | Internet: jlowrey@usc.edu
         I'd rather see than be one."          | UUCP:     !uunet!usc!jlowrey
From: ivie@cc.usu.edu (CP/M lives!)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: heat and machines
Date: 16 Apr 92 09:59:00 MDT
Organization: Utah State University

In article <kdvEeIG00Vsa0=5YZq@andrew.cmu.edu>, jn11+@andrew.cmu.edu (Joseph M. Newcomer) writes:
> 
> A DEC20 had flow sensors in every ventilation path.  Failure of flow would
> shut the machine down.  The problem was the airflow sensors were sometimes
> flaky, so I was shown the magic tiny bypass switch (down at the front,
> about 4" from the floor) that would allow the machine to run even if the
> airflow switches said "no".  Turning this switch on also caused the one
> panel light of the DEC-20 to blink, indicating the safety bypass was on.

The VAX 8250 also has airflow sensors, which is great until you are trying to
hang lots of probes on a malfunctioning BI card. It's hard enough to get into
a BI card cage with a logic analyzer, having the airflow sensor just adds
insult to injury. We found that putting a big piece of cardboard over the back
half of the machine fools the sensor.

For our initial checkout, we use a backplane with the sides cut out so that we
can get to the module we want to test. To generate BI traffic, we've got a
CP/M box in slot zero connected to a BIIC. That's right, we have a VAXBI-based
CP/M machine. Works great, and it boots much faster than a VAX.

Roger Ivie
ivie@cc.usu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: ury@mosque.huji.ac.il (Ury Segal)
Subject: Re: Why Grey? Are computer unhappy objects?
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 92 12:44:07 GMT

In article <YdsEnOm00VpPIF43Zi@andrew.cmu.edu>, Joseph Wei-Cheng Ku <jk73+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
|> don't forget that the NeXT's are black. more morbid than all other computers.
|> 
|> -jk
Hm. My Mac IIcx is white. (Well, was when it was new..). Anyhaow it is not GREY
like the old Macs.
-- 
Ury Segal                     |   _    ______         ()                 _
ury@cs.huji.ac.il             |  ' )  /               /\                //
Phone: 02-971187              |   /  / __  __  ,     /  )  _  _,  __.  //
                              |  (__/ / (_/ (_/_    /__/__</_(_)_(_/|_</_
The taste of life:            |              /                /|
C, SPARC and rock'n'roll !!!  |             '                 |/

  The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University or
     IBM's, Digital's, Apple's, Intel's, HP's, ATT's, or anyone else
          on Erth. Truely, They are mine, LO MIN HAHEFKER, as       
	          Bialik once said. Realy. and remember:
		        Istra Balagina Kish 
			     Kish Karia
From: jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Why Grey? Are computer unhappy objects?
Date: 6 Apr 92 22:12:13 GMT

aduell@isis.cs.du.edu (Tony Duell):
>
> The official PDP11 colours are 'Marroon and Burgundy' at leat according to
> my DEC options catalogue. Othe DEC machine colours are :
> PDP8 - Yellow/brown
> PDP12 - two-tone green (I have just been given a preliminary PDP12 use
> manual that someone was going to throw out :-))

I have a PDP-12 nameplate on top of my IBM RT workstation.  The light green
is a light pea grean color, something of a spring green, and the darker shade
is Army green.  The relay rack itself was black.  Only  the nameplate across
the top of the rack had the "official colors".  I rescued my nameplate off
of the rack after someone else had gutted the rack of all electronics.

Most PDP-11 racks were the same -- the official colors were on a stripe
across the cabinet top (on the nameplates), and there was sometimes a matching
stripe across the console panel above the display lights.

                                Doug Jones
                                jones@cs.uiowa.edu
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: mikey@superior.carleton.ca (Mike McFaul)
Subject: Re: You know you've been in hack mode too long when...
Organization: Carleton University, Ottawa, Canada
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1992 02:29:26 GMT

In article <3!4Hz0$n6@cs.psu.edu> dsbarr@cs.psu.edu writes:
>In article <4jtj67k@lynx.unm.edu> evilted@vesta.unm.edu writes:
>>...you're looking for your hilighter and you think:
>>find . -pen HiLiter -print
>>
>>additions?
>
>	When doing laundry, thinking 'touch *' to make them all new 
>and clean again.   :-)
>

I'm sorry but 'make clean' seems to hit me rather hard (in the middle
of a dirty sock pile! :-).
From: magnus@thep.lu.se (Magnus Olsson)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: You know you've been in hack mode too long when...
Date: 16 Apr 92 09:59:50 GMT
Organization: Theoretical Physics, Lund University, Sweden

In article <EduuTCy00VpGESOXs3@andrew.cmu.edu> ap1i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Andrew C. Plotkin) writes:
>I once had a dream in which I was in a really bad situation, bad enough
>that I decided to kill myself. (Details not relevant.) So how do I plan
>to kill myself? Well, I've got this little device that will change my
>name to something random. 'Cos if I change my name, then nobody who knew
>me can access me, so I'm effectively dead. Right?
>
>That's not the scary part, of course. The scary part is that this still
>almost makes sense. 

Well, if you modified your device to change not your name, but your
social security number, it would effectively kill you - at least here
in Sweden, where *everything* seems to be run by SSN. 

I once read an SF story about a man who had lost his SSN, or maybe
just his Smart Card or something, in a future USA where everything
was computerized. In order to survive, he had to persuade other people
to buy him food, because no restaurants accepted cash. Scary.

It's not quite that bad (yet) in Seden, of course - you can survive
excellently without a SSN, although your employer may have some
difficulty paying you - but you'd be effectively dead to the
authorities until you were found out.

Magnus Olsson                   | \e+      /_
Dept. of Theoretical Physics    |  \  Z   / q
University of Lund, Sweden      |   >----<           
Internet: magnus@thep.lu.se     |  /      \===== g
Bitnet: THEPMO@SELDC52          | /e-      \q
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: zrepachol@cc.curtin.edu.au
Subject: Re: Why Grey? Are computer unhappy objects?
Organization: Curtin University of Technology
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 10:05:49 GMT

In article <1992Apr6.195838.14243@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>, aduell@isis.cs.du.edu (Tony Duell) writes:
> 
> The official PDP11 colours are 'Marroon and Burgundy' at leat according to
Or light and dark blue if it's a DATAsystem
Or red and white if its an early 11/45
or some thing else if it's an 'Industrial-11' or yet another if
its a KL-10 frount end ( sorry, done have it with me so I can look)
> my DEC options catalogue. Othe DEC machine colours are :
> PDP8 - Yellow/brown
> PDP12 - two-tone green (I have just been given a preliminary PDP12 use
> manual that someone was going to throw out :-))
> PDP15 - two-tone  blue.


~Paul
From: Greg_Goss@mindlink.bc.ca (Greg Goss)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Slashed o's (o's, not zeros)?
Date: 16 Apr 92 01:24:45 GMT
Article-I.D.: mindlink.11446
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada

> Greg Goss writes:
> 
> 
>  ### #
> ##  ## ## # ##
> ##   ##
>  #####
> 
>  or something like that.



sigh.  I hate nicely-foratting mailers.

Anyhow, the shape was a circle with a 1/3 slash diagonal the OTHER way through
the top right corner.  I can't for the life of me see how that shape got
reformatted into what went out, but ...
--
"say NO to four-line sigs"     greg_goss@mindlink.bc.ca
From: jtn3@bsu-cs.bsu.edu (James Nelson)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: You know you've been in hack mode too long when...
Date: 17 Apr 92 15:59:21 GMT
Article-I.D.: bsu-cs.1459
Organization: Ball State University

Late (very late) one night, I half woke up and thought I couldn't make
love with my wife because I couldn't remember the correct interrupt number
to wake up.  Strange.

James T. Nelson
DOMAIN: <jtn3@bsu-cs.bsu.edu> or <jnelson@indyvax.iupui.edu>  preferred
UUCP:    ...!{iuvax,pur-ee}!bsu-cs!jtn3
BITNET: JNELSON@indyvax.BITNET       preferred
        JNELSON@indymed.BITNET       if all else fails
From: frank@twg.com (Frank L. McConnell)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Why Grey? Are computer unhappy objects?
Date: 6 Apr 92 00:37:32 GMT
Reply-To: frank@twg.com
Organization: The Wollongong Group, Palo Alto, CA (USA)
In-reply-to: chapman@cs.cornell.edu's message of 2 Apr 92 16:25:46 GMT

xexeo@dxlaa.cern.ch (Geraldo Xexeo) writes:
>[Why are many computers gray?]

And chapman@cs.cornell.edu (Richard Chapman) responds:
>I echo Geraldo's unhappiness with grey! It wasn't always this way: 
>orange pdp-8's, rose and magenta pdp-11's, bright blue CDC's. 

From the _Seldom Met User's Group IV_ book that Robelle Consulting was
handing out at the Interex conference in 1985, under the heading
"Trivia":
>3.  What colors did the original HP 3000 come in?

And the answer....
>3.  Sun Gold, Woodgrain, Marine Blue, and Red.

I believe I've seen one of the Sun Gold ones -- an HP 3000 CX at
George Washington University, circa 1981.  Somehow I imagine it's
not there anymore....

The HP 3000 CX also sported a console table with a console (the
one at GWU had a Teletype 43 when I saw it) in the middle, and two
panels of lights and switches to the left and right sides of the 
console, angled so that they faced the operator.  I've never been
certain whether the panels could slide down into the console table
or not (to provide more desk space when they weren't in use).

I keep a picture of one of these, labelled "A Modern Digital
Computer", on my office door.  It's from a textbook on digital
electronics, published by HP in the mid-70s.  Sadly, it is in
black-and-white.

The Series II (and III), alas, had gray front doors with a blue strip
across the top.  The back door was also gray; side and top panels were
a darker sort of greenish gray.  They also got rid of most of the
lights and switches, with only the CIR (current instruction register)
lights and SSR (system switch register) lights and switches on the 
front door of the CPU box (19" rack, really).

The Series 33 (as well as the 44, 48, and 58...and maybe others) were
literally desks, complete with a woodgrain top.  (Underneath the
woodgrain top was...you guessed it...gray.)  Most sites I've seen use
this feature to provide a "console table" for the operator, and plunk
the console down right on top of the system.  Most sites with a
44/48/58 (33 too?) also have some sort of cover over the main power
switch, too, as it's right down there under the desk, where it is
likely to be hit by operators' knees or feet.  

The Series 64/68/70 is a big boring gray box, maybe four feet high by
seven or ten long (depending on whether you had the third IMB
(essentially == I/O bus)).  When I worked at a site that had one (then
two) of these, I used to describe it as "the box that looks like a
chest freezer".  Silly, but it worked.

-Frank McConnell   "I want my MPE" (w/apologies to Dire Straits)
 <frank@twg.com>



Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: aduell@isis.cs.du.edu (Tony Duell)
Subject: Re: Computer-related auto license tags
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 92 20:23:48 GMT


014747 is the PDP11 opcode (in octal) for 
MOV -(PC), -(PC)
That looks like some _wierd_ instruction
Wouldn't it copy itself backwards through memory?????
Now, I wonder how far I am from the intended interpretation?
-tony 'PDP11 Hacker' Duell
ard@siva.bris.ac.uk
From:  (Mullins_John@ub.UB.com)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Computer-related auto license tags
Date: 7 Apr 92 21:21:16 GMT
Article-I.D.: pippen.1992Apr7.212116.10848
Organization: Ungermann-Bass

In article <10297@gollum.twg.com>, nolan@twg.com (Nolan Hinshaw) writes:
> 
> 
> 
> Sez here that Bert Metcalf of 3Com carried CSMA CD on his BMW. Ennybuddy know
> if he still has the plates?
> 
> Nolan Hinshaw			Internet: nolan@twg.com

Well Bob Metcalfe (the inventor of Ethernet) of 3Com fame did have CSMA CD on his yellow Vette. 
Also L. William Krause (ex 3Com President) had Tks 3Com on  his BMW.  Ron Crane had 3C100 on his car
(3C100 is the 3Com module number of a tranceiver that Ron patented.) 

Seen in the area CWizard.

On my car 3Wizard.
John
From: qs101@cl.cam.ac.uk (Quentin Stafford-Fraser)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Sinclair Lore Query
Keywords: n
Date: 16 Apr 92 11:59:12 GMT
Reply-To: qs101@cl.cam.ac.uk (Quentin Stafford-Fraser)
Organization: U of Cambridge Computer Lab, UK

In article <hj9il0w@Unify.Com>, perry@Unify.Com (Perry Clarke) writes:

|>  In the last 2 months he has introduced what he describes as the
|> world's first practical electric bicycle, the Zike (personally, I prefer
|> his computers to his modes of transport).

I heard about these - has anyone seen one?

 -----------------------------------
 Quentin Stafford-Fraser            
 Cambridge University Computer Lab  
 qs101@cl.cam.ac.uk
 Tel +44 223 334645
 -----------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: zrepachol@cc.curtin.edu.au
Subject: Re: Unit Record Equipment
Organization: Curtin University of Technology
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 16:50:23 GMT

In article <john_newman.18@qmcc.curtin.edu.au>, john_newman@qmcc.curtin.edu.au (John Newman) writes:
> 
> In article <12302@bwdls58.bnr.ca>, (Henry Troup) writes:
>> Never mind yer ENIACs and PDP-1s :-) Does anyone own working IBM unit 
>>record machines?
> 
> 
> Not exactly IBM, but our small computer museum has two mechanical
> hand punches and a hand verifier. They are from the 1950s and are all
> working. (British Tabulating Co). One of the hand punches was pulled
> out of the glass case just last week to copy some control cards for some 
> ancient factory control system.
> 
> Now I know we are a few years behind the I.T. revolution, in this
> part of the world, but last year I met an elderly unit record mechanic
> who is still maintaining a 1940s system in a suburban library.
> It is purely mechanical, except for drive motors, using 40-column cards.
> When I asked him how he gets on for spares, he (complete with :-) ),
> said all he needs is scrap iron, a hack-saw, file and a large
> hammer. And a drop of oil helps.
> 
And while we are in this fair city... A friend of mine has a LEO tape drive
working on his 11/73. Talk about contrasts... Not exactily unit record I
know, but if you have flakey 7 track tapes that you MUST get the data off,
It help a LOT to be able to tune density and slice levels as you go.

It helps even more if you done get 'tax' jobs like that to start with.

~Paul

PS I hope you are looking after the KL-10 front end as well John.
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Computer-related auto license tags
From: don@zl2tnm.gen.nz (Don Stokes)
Date: 7 Apr 92 09:23:50 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Wolery

aduell@isis.cs.du.edu (Tony Duell) writes:
> 
> 014747 is the PDP11 opcode (in octal) for 
> MOV -(PC), -(PC)
> That looks like some _wierd_ instruction
> Wouldn't it copy itself backwards through memory?????

Of course.  

I wondered how long it'd be before you responded.  The chocolate fish 
however goes to Carl Lowenstein, Roger Ivie or Warner Losh, whoever turns 
up on my doorstep first.... 8-)

--
Don Stokes, ZL2TNM (DS555)                        don@zl2tnm.gen.nz (home)
Network Manager, Computing Services Centre            don@vuw.ac.nz (work)
Victoria University of Wellington, New Zealand              +64-4-495-5052