From: SL500000@brownvm.brown.edu ()
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: GOD
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 18:04:21 EST
Organization: Brown University - Providence, Rhode Island  USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: brownvm.brown.edu
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In article <C1HDxx.2KK@athena.cs.uga.edu>, tedr@athena.cs.uga.edu (Ted
Kalivoda) said:
>Organization: University of Georgia, Athens
>References: <728022574.0@iphase.fidonet.org> <1k3q16INNl9s@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
>Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 21:49:08 GMT
>
>In article <1k3q16INNl9s@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> SL500000@brownvm.brown.edu ()
>writes:
>>
>>>               There is a true god. Satan is real. Follow him and you will
go
>>>to hell. Follow Jesus and inherite eternal life. Any questions?
>
>*ignoring certain replies....
>
>>It is very hard to be certain that this is in fact true, since some of
>>the recorded prophesies of Jesus did *not* come true, and some of his
>>recorded statements are in logical contradiction with one another, and
>>thus *cannot* all be true at once.
>
>It's good to see someone embracing the law of noncontradiction.  I am curious
>what contradictions in the "sayings" of Jesus do you know as contradictory?
>There are contradictions between the synoptics, but what precise sayings are
>in your opinion?

The logical contradiction is between a statement that says "Whoever is
not for me is against me" and one that says "Whoever is not against me
is for me."  Is further clarification needed?

>Also, if there are sayings of Jesus that are contradictory then why does that
>mean there is not one true God?  I don't see the connection.  Perhaps you
>mean, "follow Jesus and only Jesus and you will inherit eternal life" becomes
>difficult to accept?

It doesn't mean that there isn't one true God.  It means that Jesus'
words are an unreliable guide to any such God that may exist.  No person
who utters false statements or who utters logically contradictory
statements is a wholly reliable guide to anything.

>>The plain sense of Mark 13:30 is
>>that the end of the world will happen before the last person alive in
>>Jesus' day has died -- but it was not so.  There is an irreconcilable
>>logical contradiction between plain sense of the saying of Jesus
>>recorded in Matthew 12:30 = Luke 11:23 (He that is not with me is
>>against me) and Mark 9:40 (For he that is not against us is on our
>>part).  Any questions?  -- Robert
>
>Yes.  Is it not possible that the humanity of Jesus really believed that the
>world would end in his generation?

The humanity of Jesus is not in dispute here.  Of course, any human can
err, and if Jesus has humanity (as is the traditional Christian teaching),
then as a human he too can err.  This means that his words are not
wholly reliable.

>Repost the Mark 9:40 with verse 39 and 41 and your tranlated version.  There
>are some interesting diffences in the synoptics and I can't remember if this
>one really is.

I just grabbed a King James for convenience.  Jesus is instructing the
disciples on a point of correct conduct, and as a *general principle* in
support of his instruction he then says [my own hasty translation from
the Greek here]: "for he that is not against [kata] us is with [hyper]
us."  In Matthew and Luke it is rather a general principle which is
meant rhetorically to reinforce a host of previous statements about
Jesus' position on the side of God rather than Beelzebub, and it may be
translated: "He who is not with [meta] me is against [kata] me."

Robert Mathiesen, Brown University, SL500000@BROWNVM
Xref: sparky alt.pagan:15859 talk.religion.misc:27553