HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: smsmith@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Stephen M Smith)
Subject: Re: IBM MARKETING
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 21:48:21 GMT

Steve.Withers@bbs.actrix.gen.nz writes:

>The sales people in the shop, though, keep on selling the Windows bundles and
>the almost never mention OS/2 when talking to customers. This is changing -
>slowly - but the lack of applications  - today - is hindering the ability of
>sales people to promote OS/2. 

Today I was talking to the manager of a local Bizmart here in Columbus,
Ohio, and he said something I've always thought to be true: Even if
there were NO OS/2 apps available now or in the future, OS/2 would
still be worth buying and promoting simply for its DOS and Windows
compatibility.

   Steve Smith       | __|__ |    " #*&<-[89s]*(k#$@-_=//a2$]'+=.(2_&*%>,,@
<smsmith@magnus.acs. |   |   |      {7%*@,..":27g)-=,#*:.#,/6&1*.4-,l@#9:-) "
  ohio-state.edu>    |   |   | 
  BTW, WYSInaWYG     |   |   |                           --witty.saying.ARC 
Xref: sparky comp.os.os2.advocacy:3322 comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy:1606
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Origins of IBM / Microsoft rift
Date: 28 Jul 1992 15:12:19 GMT
Followup-To: comp.os.os2.advocacy
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

In article <1992Jul28.092625.14155@cs.hw.ac.uk> neilp@cs.hw.ac.uk (Neil Postlethwaite) writes:
>Look and feel. Mac wins hands down. There is *no* contest.

Bletch.

A couple of weekends ago, I spent several hours in front of a Mac-based logic
analyzer. It was a royal pain to use, precisely because it followed the Mac
design philosophy slavishly. We got the job done, but not without several loud
"ARRRGGGGGH!!!!!"s from me.

-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by a .sig virus.
"Right now, because of you, this city is being overrun by baboons." "Don't
 you think that's the responsibility of the voters?" -- _Naked Gun 2-1/2_
Xref: sparky comp.os.os2.advocacy:3043 comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy:1473 comp.sys.acorn:7977 comp.sys.mac.misc:13560
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.sys.acorn,comp.sys.mac.misc
Subject: Re: New MultiTOS PC (Atari Falcon)
From: Gavin.Flower@comp.vuw.ac.nz (Gavin Flower)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 22:38:02 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Comp. Sci., Victoria Uni. of Wellington, New Zealand.

In article <HVy2NB7w165w@mantis.co.uk> mathew@mantis.co.uk (mathew) writes:
>Gavin.Flower@comp.vuw.ac.nz (Gavin Flower) writes:
[...]
>> Not until it can run Risc-OS 3.1 !!!
>
>*Snigger*
>
>RiscOS?  Yeah, I just LOVE seven letter filenames.  !And !All !Those !Stupid
>!Exclamation !Marks !All !Over !The !Screen.

Even Risc-OS 2 supports more than 7 letter filenames!  You're not
thinking of DFS, by any chance.  Besides which, that is filing system
specific, and Risc-OS can support various filing systems.  Risc-OS 3.1
even allows easy access to MS-DOS and Atari format disks, I can put
one in and display its directory in a window along side one from an
ADFS "E" format disc - without loading special software.

I could ask why Atari are releasing yet another "Tape Operating System",
but the historical significance would be lot on most people now
reading the net.  Anyway, I assume that the "T" stands for something else.

ALL operating systems, without exception, have some weaknesses.
However, when it comes to ease of use, Risc-OS wins out over all the
other ones I've used over the last 10++ years.

Does this MultiTOS support background disc I/O in the desktop, like
disk copying while you use DTP?  

Are directories cached for fast access?

Does it fully support a 3 button mouse as standard?  

Are menus context sensitive?  

Do menus stay on screen when you take your finger of the mouse?  

Can you action a menu entry, and optionally, keep the menu on screen?

Can you change the graphics mode to various preselected
combinations of resolution and colour range, from the desk top.  

...There are many more features, probably more important, that could
be compared...

I suggest you develope a better understanding of Risc-OS before you
make critical comments on it.  I know very little about MultiTOS, so
I'm not about to attack it, it may have some very good features.

If you really believe that MultiTOS is a very good O/S, then it could
be worth making an informed and objective comparison between it and
RiscOS 3.1.  I would be genuinely interested.  However you will need
to spend some time with Risc-OS 3.1 to appreciate the differences in
philosophy and implementation of features.  

I use X-windows and Risc-OS 2.0 almost every day, they are quite
different.  At other times I've used OS/2, Apple Macs, and MS-Window
systems. I've also seen window systems on Amiga's and Atari's.  They
all have their good and bad points.

If you sensibly want to contribute, on such a wide distribution, do so!
Stupid flames merely reflect on yourself - unfavourable.


Gavin


-- 
Tomorrow's Society                              | flower_g@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz
    Depends on                                   ----------------------------
Today's Children  - help us raise them properly! 
*******  These comments have no known correlation with dept. policy!  *******
From: "bill dehaan" <bill.dehaan@canrem.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: dvorak, pc magazine
Date: 30 Jul 92 22:03:53 EST
Reply-To: "bill dehaan" <bill.dehaan@canrem.com>
Distribution: comp
Organization: Canada Remote Systems

In message <1992Jul25.163710.7228@sygnus.uucp>, Tim Purves writes:

JT>Anyone see the Dvorak column in the August '92 PC Mag?  Something must be
JT>seriously wrong!!!  He raves about OS/2 2.0.  I just don't get it anymore.

TP>Sorta makes Zacherman look like a lier, no?

TP>Twho theories:

TP>1) This weeks PCMAG is very pro OS/2. ZD did this to make Zacherman look the
TP>fool. And to prove that he was not censored.

TP>2) Zacherman, was just doing a publicity stunt.

I doubt that Will Zachmann (not Zacherman) quit his job and walked  away
from more than 50% of his income for a publicity stunt. Zachman has also
stated many times that his problems were with PC _WEEK_, not PC _MAG_.

----------------------------------+-----------------------------------------
Deus Ex Machina                   | Internet:   bill.dehaan@rose.com
Software Consulting and Gator Pit | I'm a brain in a vat. What about you?
----------------------------------+-----------------------------------------
---
  SLMR 2.1a  Laetrile is the pits.
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario/Detroit, MI
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
From: doc@garfield.catt.ncsu.edu (Jeffrey Smith)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: pc week and nt
Date: 30 Jul 92 02:48:31 GMT
Distribution: comp
Organization: North Carolina State University

stephen.dawson@canrem.com (stephen dawson) writes:
>Graphics based DOS apps will not run full screen, even on Intel
>based PC's.
Yes they will.

 
Romana: "I thought you said we were coming here for May week?"
Doctor: "I did, May week's in June."
	                **Shada and The Five Doctors**
        Jeffrey Smith   --KD4AYH--  doc@catt.ncsu.edu
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: Steve.Withers@bbs.actrix.gen.nz
Subject: Re: Why did Microsoft abandon OS2?
Organization: Actrix Information Exchange
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 12:40:39 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.155837.1905@njitgw.njit.edu> dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap) writes:
> 
> Imagine the market penetration if they'd push their complete
> applications line for Windows, OS/2, Sun, NeXT, DEC, etc.  Heck, if
> they tried to port their stuff to the Amiga, they'd take the market by
> storm, with the absence of good document preparation tools for it.

Yeah, but they'd only sell one copy of Amiga software.......:-)
 
Steve
-- 
Steve Withers - Wellington, New Zealand | "But the glory kept shining
Steve.Withers@bbs.actrix.gen.nz         |  and bright in my eyes, 
withers_s@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz            |  And the stars going round in 
**** Happy user of OS/2 v2!! ****       |  my head." R. L. S.
From: "stephen dawson" <stephen.dawson@canrem.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: nt, an assessment
Date: 23 Jul 92 09:57:06 EST
Reply-To: "stephen dawson" <stephen.dawson@canrem.com>
Distribution: comp
Organization: Canada Remote Systems

Bill Dehaan writes

BD>Largely irrelevant to YOU, perhaps. Not to others. Posix and security
BD>requirements make using OS/2 very difficult for government contract bids;
BD>NT meets (and exceeds) these requirements.

Actually Microsoft has been surprised about the security issue. It
seems certification is awarded to a COMBINATION of hardware and OS.
That means that NT, itself, cannot be certified.

As for POSIX, it is simply an API translation, no?

BD>It would, possibly. What makes you think that NT will slip to 2Q93? It is
BD>currently listed as going out 4Q92, although consensus is that it will not
BD>be ready until 1Q93. Are you basing this on fact, or is it speculation?

An educated guess. NT is not yet in beta, and it is a very complex
project.

SD>multi-processor version in November.

BD>But not this. Where did you hear this?

The press releases about the (Parallan) 295 server.

SD>There is the Windows user who is happy. If the user is still using
SD>Windows after OS/2 2.0 has been around for a year, the user doesn't
SD>need NT. That user will be waiting for Windows 4.0.

BD>Which many people think NT is.

That isn't what Microsoft WAS saying.

    STEPHEN         Look through the Windows and you will see OS/2!
    ^^^^^^^    :-)  Walking and chewing gum at the same time.

 stephen.dawson@canrem.com
 Entered 07-23-92 at 7:59am in Downsview, Ontario

 * DeLuxe2/386 1.25 #3969 * Most rules for success don't work if you don't.
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario/Detroit, MI
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: petesk@microsoft.com (Pete Skelly)
Subject: Re: Why we shouldn't attack MS Employees (and other thoughts)
Date: 25 Jul 92 08:12:39 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

In article <76534@ut-emx.uucp> varmint@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Samir Varma) writes:
>
>5) Finally, some people (myself included) don't like some of MS's
>alleged business practices.  Well, we have a good choice.  We can
>simply choose not to buy MS products and write to them and tell them
>why we're not doing so.  MS is in business to make money.  If people
>don't buy their products then they won't make money.  It's as simple
>as that.

Another option is to write and tell whoever is doing the alleged poor
business practices (be it MS, IBM, McDonalds, whoever), as you suggested,
but instead of trying to punish them, suggest that they do not do those
practices anymore.  I mean really, what would be better, Better products
and business practices, or No products and business practices.
(I know how the MS haters and IBM haters are going to respond, but
what about you folks who only want a good OS)

By the way, good post.

>
>And finally, let's lighten up guys.  This is .advocacy not .politics!
>
>Samir Varma
Yes, .advocacy != .politics, but instead .advocacy == .flames.
Or so it seems ;)

petesk@microsoft.com
My Opinions.....


Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: morton@qucdntri.ee.queensu.ca
Subject: Re: OS2 Good news and Bad news  (OS2 & a little windows too)
Organization: Queen's University EE Department
Distribution: comp.os.os2.advocacy
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 17:37:46 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.164115.1@qucdntri.ee.queensu.ca>, morton@qucdntri.ee.queensu.ca writes:
> 
> Yep, I think so! I've been a staunch DOS user for many-a-year, but now that
> I'm in Electrical/Computer Engineering, I'm more educated, and although
> OS2/2 is pretty nifty, I want to know why wysiwyg applications still 
> crawl on my 80386 when they were pretty fast on the 68000's. Within the 
> next couple of months, I'm going to do some serious looking into
> whatever Mac it is based on the 68030 and 68040. 

Somebody e-mailed me about this one but I lost their address so I'll reply here.

Maybe I'm confusing a software problem with a hardware problem. I'm new to OS2
so I've only ever used DOS/Win apps in OS2. When I see WPfW take just for ever scrolling,
in OS2 just like it did in Windows, I blame it on the hardware. I guess this could be 
just poor programming for a poor operating system, and maybe WP for OS2 is good and fast. 

Could anybody comment on this? (ie. Big Windows apps are deadly slow. 
   How about actual OS2 apps? Is it a fundamental problem win Intel based machines, 
   or is DOS just a fundamentally poor OS.) 

	Stephen 		Queen's Electrical Engineering
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: agoper@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Arne Grimstrup)
Subject: Security Ratings
Summary: Claims of security bogus?
Keywords: NSA NT Security OS/2
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 16:26:41 GMT

In most of the comparisons of NT vs OS/2 there is mention of NT having
security features with an NSA rating of C2.

At a trade show, I met a rep from a company which produced a security
system for UNIX.  He said that it had a B1 rating and it took about
1 year for the system to go through all of the tests the NSA requires.

Having said this, I'd like to know:

1)  Does the NSA test alpha/beta releases?  [I don't think they
    would due to the unstable nature of alpha/beta releases.]

2)  How long is the testing period for the C2 rating?

3)  Is OS/2 currently being tested for a security rating?
    [The LAN services would be the most likely candidate.]

Thanks very much for the inf

Arne
-- 
Arne Grimstrup                            agoper@ccu.umanitoba.ca
Disclaimer:
Since when did the undergrads          Excuse me, but have you seen
start speaking for the UofM?           any smart idiots recently?
From: bauwens@acs.ucalgary.ca (Luc Bauwens)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: More Biased Reviews From ZD
Date: 25 Jul 92 02:25:42 GMT
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta

In article <1992Jul24.175623.26866@microsoft.com> philipla@microsoft.com (Phil Lafornara) writes:
>In article <bcgm#lk.jeffc@netcom.com> jeffc@netcom.com (Jeff Cohen) writes:
>>
>>Borland's ObjectVision 2.0 for OS/2 2.0 is now shipping, and it's 32-bits.
>>Lotus will ship 32-bit OS/2 versions of all their products.  I've seen a
>>demo of a beta version of Freelance by a Lotus rep, and I was impressed.
>>32-bit versions of 1-2-3 and AmiPro are also forthcoming.  So is
>>WordPerfect 6.0.  No, they're not in the stores yet, but they are
>>coming.
>
>     So with the exception of ObjectVision, all of the above are
>vaporware, yes?

Correct.  And so was OS/2 2.0 for a long while in 1991.  And man,
how did the Windows bigots did elaborate on that (and no, I was
not one of them...)  Funny how definitions change, on both sides of
the house...

>  And with the logic usually used on this group, none
>of them should effect any decisions made today, correct?

Why?  Of course, any information is useful when deciding.  But one
has to examine the credibility of the rumors and misinformation
thrown around by all sides in order to affect purchase decisions.

Such as, the June csd that has now slipped to September (yes, Tim, I
know, IBM never committed themselves officially.  But don't tell me
the rumors didn't come from insiders.)

Such as those fairy tales about NT being ready early next year.

And yes, that's a game that, surely, Billy the Kid's gang is better 
at than the little gray men on the other side of the street, right?

Sounds like those two kids out of Madison Avenue on their bus ride,
versus that pathetic, tired old man getting into his helicopter :-)?

Luc B
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Origins of IBM / Microsoft rift
Date: 22 Jul 92 15:42:44 GMT
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <1992Jul21.234116.3461@unislc.uucp> thayne@unislc.uucp (Thayne Forbes) writes:

>Recall that until about '86 Microsoft was making more money selling
>Mac apps than DOS.  My guess is that Bill will not let any market
>with 2 million users fall by the wayside.  Just MHO.

Then why did he almost abandon the Mac community?  The new MS apps for
the Mac are direct ports of the Windows apps, and the Mac users don't
appreciate this one bit.  The wanted Mac apps, and they're getting
ported Windows apps.

And why would they abandon OS/2 development.  I can understand not
selling separate spreadsheets and word processors, but language tools?
They had OS/2 in the package and deliberately removed it.  Surely it
takes little effort to keep something you've had for three generations
of the package.

No, it's a bit more than pushing Windows in order to get the PC
market.  Because he's dumping the non-Windows markets in the process.
Many of which were quite profitable in the past.

So, do you want IBM's master plan (OS/2 for PC, AIX for workstation,
and MVS for mainframe) or Microsoft's master plan (Windows, and NT for
all) 


-- 
   |)  David Charlap           "I don't even represent myself
  /|_  dic5340@hertz.njit.edu   sometimes so NJIT is right out!.
 ((|,)
  ~|~  Hi! I am a .signature virus, copy me into your .signature file.
From: dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap)
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Aliasses for CMD.EXE?  Please?
Date: 30 Jul 92 16:49:16 GMT
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <1992Jul29.012627.19901@tamsun.tamu.edu> dlb5404@tamsun.tamu.edu (Daryl Biberdorf) writes:

>So far I've been able to dodge PATH's limitations by using SUBST, but
>it still sucks, IMNSHO.

I always used CED to get around the PATH problem.  I'd have synonyms
for almost every program not on my PATH.  The synonym would drop me in
the directory, run the program, and then go back. 

Unfortunately, OS/2's CMD.EXE doesn't allow aliasses.  heck, the
DOSKEY program (that comes with DOS 5.0, and the OS/2 DOS emulator)
will allow aliasses, why can't CMD?
-- 
   |)  David Charlap           "I don't even represent myself
  /|_  dic5340@hertz.njit.edu   sometimes so NJIT is right out!.
 ((|,)
  ~|~  Hi! I am a .signature virus, copy me into your .signature file.
Xref: sparky comp.os.os2.advocacy:3207 comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy:1553
From: "richard anstruther" <richard.anstruther@canrem.com>
Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: official membership
Date: 29 Jul 92 22:07:35 EST
Reply-To: "richard anstruther" <richard.anstruther@canrem.com>
Distribution: comp
Organization: Canada Remote Systems

Well I've finally received my first piece of abusive e-mail from
Gordon Letwin.  At last I feel like an _official_ member of
comp.os2.adv :-)

               Richard
---
  1st 1.00  From the Philomelion fan club
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario/Detroit, MI
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
From: philipla@microsoft.com (Phil Lafornara)
Subject: Re: Why we shouldn't attack MS Employees (and other thoughts)
Date: 27 Jul 92 18:10:40 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

In article <64359@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt0059e@prism.gatech.EDU (Garrett Drysdale) writes:
>
>jllJust because someone works for m icrosoft does not immediately make 
>them an exper t on NT; just as an IBM employ is not an immediate expert on
>OS2.  As far as I can tell none of the M$ employees discussinga the major OS
>issues of the future are even working directly on the NT system.  Although
>they may have SOME information, I doubt that they are informed of every
>small byt important detail about NT developement.  (Most companies gernerally
>have somewhat of a Need to Konwow (Know) policy.

      I fail to see the relevance of this statement.  Very few, if any,
OS/2 supporters on this group work at IBM - I'd go so far as to say
that 99% of the posters here haven't seen the OS/2 2.0 source code.
Does this make everything that everyone is posting irrelevant?

      For the record:  I've never claimed to be an expert on Windows NT.

						-Phil

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phil Lafornara         				1 Microsoft Way         
philipla@microsoft.com				Redmond, WA 98052-6399 
Note:  Microsoft doesn't even _know_ that these are my opinions. So there.

Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
From: orville%weyrich@tnet.com (Orville R. Weyrich)
Subject: Re: Origins of IBM / Microsoft rift
Reply-To: tnet.com!weyrich!orville
Organization: Weyrich Computer Consulting
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 05:27:57 GMT

In article <1992Jul25.203155.29130@cs.hw.ac.uk> neilp@cs.hw.ac.uk (Neil Postlethwaite) writes:
>In article <1992Jul23.073024.2366@unislc.uucp> thayne@unislc.uucp (Thayne Forbes) writes:
>>
>>Wait a minute, when did he abandon the Mac?  Also, the two big winders
>>apps are Word and Excel, both of which were ported FROM the Mac.  I haven't
>>seen recent releases of either for the Mac, but I suspect that the winders
>>versions are currently more capable.  If that is true, I will have to 
>>conceed that they are not supporting the Mac as agressively as they used to.
>>On the other hand, Winders is kinda sucsessful these days, so you will
>>have to forgive him for changing his resource allocation to Winders.

On the other hand, MS has taken a lot of legal cr*p from Apple over "stealing"
the Mac "look and feel". I don't blame MS from shying away from it. Actually,
it's poetic justice for MS to make APs for the Mac look more like Windows
than the Mac. I hope that it destroys the "Mac look and feel" for all time.

Just the point of view of someone who hates software "look and feel" wars.



orville

--------------------------------------       **********************************
Orville R. Weyrich, Jr.                          Weyrich Computer Consulting
Certified Data Processor                       POB 5782, Scottsdale, AZ 85261
Certified Systems Professional                      Voice: (602) 391-0821
Certified Computer Programmer                Internet: orville%weyrich@tnet.com
--------------------------------------       **********************************
From: mikeh@microme.uucp (Michael L. Hasenfratz)
Subject: Re: IBM vs Microsoft Development Kit AVAILABILITY
Organization: Micro Memory Inc., Chatsworth, Ca.
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 17:02:49 GMT

In article <1992Jul31.024243.8909@ringer.cs.utsa.edu> mlevis@ringer.cs.utsa.edu (Mike Levis) writes:
>[I corrected the newsgroup from *.programming to *.programmer]
>
>In article <ballard.712537881@swiss.ucs.ubc.ca> ballard@ucs.ubc.ca (Alan Ballard) writes:
>>On June 2nd, I ordered the Os/2 Workset and Technical Library from IBM
>>Canada (and my credit card was charged for them!)
>>
	If your credit card was charged, I would recommend that you contact
IBM and point out the fact that it is ILLEGAL to charge your card unless
they have SHIPPED the product. (They CANNOT charge you for back ordered
products!)

[stuff deleted]

>
>-- 
>       === Mike Levis    mlevis@ringer.cs.utsa.edu ===
> .--.  ::  Call 1-800-3IBM-OS2 to order OS/2 2.0!!  ::
>(OS/2) ::  Upgrade $49 from Windows, $99 from DOS.  ::
> ~--~  ::: IBM's offer ends July 31, 1992!  Hurry! :::

Mike Hasenfratz - WA6FXT * mikeh@uMEM.COM or uunet!microme!mikeh
Micro Memory Inc.
Chatsworth, Ca. 91311