HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Heraldic questions...
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 16:48:58

 Fra Tadhg said:
 MS> quite comfortably tries to
 MS>   err on the side of authenticity, while "SCA 
 MS> naming style" makes a valiant
 MS>   effort to turn us into a mutant descendant of the 
 MS> Tolkien Society by way
 MS>   of Darkover and the Dragonriders of Pern....
 Milord Tibor then said:
 MS> Nice prose.  But the first clause is provably 
 MS> incorrect.  SCA Armorial Style
 MS> does not accurately model even the unambitious portions of the period
 MS> you would have us cover, let alone the scope of the 
 MS> SCA as it is authorized
 MS> and practiced.  (We  don't have rules making 
 and then Gwenllian said:
    Hmmmm, in picking up Tadhg's quote, your following statement d
 doesn't display the point I was aiming at.  Ah, well.  Do let me know 
 if you miss the relationship between your original message and my 
 following discourse.....
    One the difficulties I saw in the original set is that "Typical 
 SCA naming practice" is not usually used to describe a name that is 
 generated in good medieval style and conforms well to the rules.  It is 
 used to describe the attempts of persons whose naming attempt is based 
 on bad movies and fictional novels with only a minimal toehold in the 
 middle ages.  For that matter, the CoA also uses "TSCA" as a 
 politically incorrect term to describe the life-history-on-a-shield 
 variety of armory, some of which is registered, just as some truly 
 non-medieval names that don't break the envelope are registered.
     In the midst of all this typing, I came to an idea about the 
 differences between the rules.  We avoid conflict in both names and 
 armory, right?  I believe that the problem is the "source code" for 
 each of these.  Due to various constraints, all SCA names get registered  in the Roman alphabet, right?  The problem with the heraldry is that 
 our rules have to create "the Roman alphabet" in order that the system 
 hang together.
       Awaiting your responce, 
          and Happy New Year to all,
               Gwenllian Cwmystwyth, Steppes, Ansteorra

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: bast@wam.umd.edu (Jaguar)
Subject: Re: HELP! name searching.
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 05:24:56 GMT


Does anyone out there have suggestions on sources for celtic names?
Particularly Welsh.....
I am interested in what the names mean, and proper pronunciation...
Of first names mainly, but last names would be interesting as well.
Also, I am NOT capable of reading welsh... Z(alas)
Jaguar
acess to a whole university library
but clueless where to start....
From: dgreen@athena (David Greenebaum)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Fighting in crown: a thought
Date: 23 Dec 1992 02:20:17 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization
NNTP-Posting-Host: athena.berkeley.edu

Hello from Bjalfi!

Caitlin de Courcy poses a problem in which her male-persona counterpart,
Padraigh, might enter Crown Tourney.  I see three possibilities which
would allow Caitlin, and not Padraigh, to rule.

1) Change the rules so anyone can fight as someone's champion.  This
way, Padraigh could fight for Caitlin and her consort.

2) Acknowledge that Padraigh and Caitlin are in fact the same person,
so that Padraigh can fight _and_ choose a male consort.  When the pair
step up, it's Caitlin and X, even though Caitlin (as Caitlin) had nothing
to do with the tourney.

3) Have Padraigh enter, choosing Caitlin as his consort.  Shortly after
clocking his rival in the final round, Padraigh "has an accident" and
"dies" (or, at any rate, "becomes unfit to rule"--so that you can bring
him back at another time).  His consort, Caitlin, must choose another
consort, and quickly.  Good thing she's had someone in mind for a while...
(This would have to be cleared in advance with Their Majesties and the
list-people, I suspect.)

4) (So I can't count...) Have a dramatic on-the-tourney-field scene
where it's revealed that Padraigh is (*gasp*) a WOMAN!!!  The lady
he is _supposed_ to have been fighting for (some good friend, that is,
who's willing to go along with the gag) faints and must be borne away.
She confesses tearfully that "All the time, I really wanted to be
fighting for _YOU_" (indicating the true consort) "and cursed the fact that
I could not reveal myself to be the woman I truly am.  My true name is
Caitlin..." and so on.  Everyone conveniently forgets this the next
time Padraigh wants to pick up a sword.  (Oops, I see I've got pronoun
trouble.  Hope this isn't too confusing here...)

My 2d...

---------------------  Bjalfi Thordharson/College of St. Katherine/Province of
 |\  | |\  |\  |// |       the Mists/Principality of the Mists/West Kingdom
 | > | |\\ | \ |/  |   David Greenebaum/University of California/Berkeley, CA
 |<  | | \ |   |   |   dgreen@athena.berkeley.edu, dgreen@garnet.berkeley.edu
 | > | |   |   |   |
 |/  | |   |   |   |   "I make mistakes, but I am on the side of good -- by
---------------------  accident and happenchance." -- the Golux

Today's favorite quote: "If you find silence confusing, it's a good thing
you hang out with heralds." --Tibor
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: PA142548@utkvm1.utk.edu (T. Archer)
Subject: Re: Fighting in crown: a thought
Organization: University of Tennessee 
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 18:03:29 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.192500.19311@epas.toronto.edu> nusbache@epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher) writes:
>Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
>Path: utkux1.utk.edu!darwin.sura.net!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!torn!skule.ecf!epas!nusbache
>From: nusbache@epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher)
>Subject: Re: Fighting in crown: a thought
>Organization: University of Toronto - Office of the Provost
>Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 19:25:00 GMT
>Message-ID: <1992Dec21.192500.19311@epas.toronto.edu>
>References: <1992Dec21.114654.20859@aifh.ed.ac.uk> <1992Dec21.104249.3694@doug.cae.wisc.edu>
>Sender: news@epas.toronto.edu (USENET)
>Nntp-Posting-Host: epas.utoronto.ca
>Lines: 10
>In article <1992Dec21.104249.3694@doug.cae.wisc.edu> pavao@cae.wisc.edu (Pavao Aaron) writes:
>
>
>>I, myself, aspire to fight in Crown someday and if (on the off-chance) I win,
>>I have no desire to become king.
>
>So why do you aspire to fight in Crown?
>
>Aryk
>
Where else can you find the best of the best, in one place, to test your 
mettle against them?
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Vote Dempublican, it's easier than thinking.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: SAUNDRSG@qucdn.queensu.ca (Graydon)
Subject: T. Archer on archery, Midrealm Crown, and recognition
Organization: The Internet
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 03:28:00 GMT

Firstly, Mr. Archer, as the stuffy purist (hey, when the local stuffy
purist Laurel thinks you're a stuffy purist, the denials get implausible)
who pointed out that a line of archers with modern recurves doesn't
look period, may I inquire as to whether or not you read anything I
wrote with any attention to detail?

I posted a detailed list of reasons *why* modern recurves don't look
period; I also at least twice included the assertion that I'd rather
people shot with fiberglass sticks than not.  There may be people in
the SCA so completely foolish as to regard 'period' as a large, inclusive
boolean variable, but I am not one of them.


Unto Bagshi Kakhan, may your flocks increase!
Most noble lord, I did not say I regarded the Midrealm Crown tourney
as being as it would be if I had the ordering of all things connected
to it; I did but wish to point out a virtue that I think it to have
that others before me had not remarked upon.


Gwenllian Cwmystwyth remarks that she doubts that mid level fighting
awards are neccessary; Lady, permit me to assert that *all* the kingdom
awards tend to be unhelpful.

If you get given an arts award, it tells you that you impressed some
people.  Maybe enough to write a letter, or maybe enough to have a
positive vote go through in an Eastrealm style polling order.
What it doesn't tell you is toad squat about how you are doing as
an artisan.  (If you haven't noticed that people are impressed,
you need to look up more often.)

The two solutions to this are to come up with criteria with teeth
(and argue till the world ends about how to write them) or come
up with something other than an award that puts the people doing
the activity in contact with each other.

Being invited to Crown by all the gods gives you a chance to meet
the other people in your fighting style specialty; it also
avoids much in the way of formality, but leaves the invitees feeling
duly honoured.  In that much I like it.

The fighters in general seem better at keeping in contact with each
other, and keeping track of who does what specialty how, than the
arts types.  Maybe we need more arts free-for-alls? :]

Graydon
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: tabron@binah.cc.brandeis.edu ("Sod the proles!")
Subject: Re: Is the Rialto censored?
Reply-To: tabron@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Organization: Brandeis University
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 21:23:11 GMT

In article <MAILQUEUE-101.921222105332.576@saturn.uark.edu>, PAULB@saturn.uark.EDU ("Paul A. Byers") writes:
>I sent a post responding to Sir John Theophilous about Calontir
>shields. It also mentioned that I have noticed lots of Racism and
>Sexism in the SCA. (almost exclusivly against White males.) and the
>poist just seems to have vanished. I post a 'hello, anyone hear me.'
>and I get 13 replys in 2 hours. What gives. Is the Rialto gone PC?
>                                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Pavel
>Calontir

No such luck.  :-}

Raedwynne aet thaem Grene Wudu

Judith Tabron
tabron@binah.cc.brandeis.edu

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: "Michael Squires" <mikes@moose.cs.indiana.edu>
Subject: Re: Aluminum Armour (was Re: HELP WANTED RE KINGDOM AWARDS)
Summary: Leather armor is easier
Keywords: armor
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 08:58:37 -0500

I made some "couir bouilli" arm harnesses a decade ago out of 4 oz leather
hardened in paraffin with huge amounts of candle hardener added.  When the
armor was a couple of years old I blocked a polearm shot from Sir Varian
the Grey with my left forearm; the polearm shaft sheared neatly in two,
and the armor had a small scratch on it.  Sir Varian was very irritated
with me for wrecking a wonderful weapon, which was the major casualty.

Hardened leather does not last well in hot climates, as the paraffin will
soften in temperatures reached inside a parked car in the sun.  Here in
the Middle and East it works well.

I've worn articulated steel leg harnesses with a very small greave
for over a decade, and attribute my lack of knee problems to regular
exercise with weights and the reinforcement that a tightly made
steel leg harness gives to the knee (direct shots to the knee are
transmitted back to the cuisse and greave and do not touch the knee).

The point is that it is relatively easy to make armor using leather and
steel in a well-equipped basement armory, as long as there is someone
around who knows some of the tricks.  This armor not only looks reasonably
accurate but also performs very well and can be maintained in the field
with a simple repair kit.

-- 

Mike Squires (mikes@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu)     812 855 3974 (w) 812 333 6564 (h)
mikes@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu          546 N Park Ridge Rd., Bloomington, IN 47408
From: WITHERSPOON@suuper.cc.suu.EDU (Tazmaniac)
Subject: Spinning and Weaving
Organization: The Internet
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1992 16:13:25 GMT

Unto the members of the Rialto,
Rhonwyn ap Gwynedd sends

Greetings!

Good gentles, I have developed a strong and sudden urge to learn
more about the textile arts, particularly spinning, carding and
weaving.  I am in need of sources for spinning wheels (preferably
kits, as I would at least like to finish it myself) and carders,
and titles of books which take one through the process from
cleaning the wool through carding and spinning, through dyeing. 
There are classes on weaving taught at the local University.  My
goal is to produce a hand-woven cloak by next winter.  I have
already been offered next spring's shearing from a co-worker's
pet sheep, and since this is an agricultural area, an adequate
supply of wool will be easy to obtain.

Any help that anyone can give would be greatly appreciated!

Rhonwyn ap Gwynedd
witherspoon@cc.suu.edu
From: mike@aloysius.equinox.gen.nz (Mike Campbell)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: SCA geography (was: through a looking ...) 
Distribution: world
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 92 06:40:23 GMT
Organization: Me? Organized?


In article <uplink.724672373@cwis> uplink@cwis.unomaha.edu writes:

  >         If you want to know who I am, I was a member of the Barony of
  > Lonely Tower for quite some time (although I never really understood
  > just quite what I had to do to get ahead in the SCA... no one would 
                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  > ever tell me).  I won't tell you my mundane name or my Society name,
  > just be satisfied with the name of the role I play now:

M'Lord or Lady, perhaps this is the problem.  I know many people, even 
in this sparsely populated corner of the known world, seek recognition 
and "advancement", however most participants do so to enjoy themselves 
or to learn something.  Many get a buzz out of helping other people.  

Now while I doubt that my experiences of the SCA can be taken as 
typical of the rest of the world, the people who "get ahead" are those 
who I figure are good (usually at something, but sometimes simply good 
is enough), considerate, etc.  Those gentles who have made the great 
effort to visit us have always been the epitome of such personalities.



Thorfyrd Hakonson, Shire of Southron Gaard, Caid
Mike Campbell, Christchurch, New Zealand
mike@aloysius.equinox.gen.nz
From: branwen@cerebus.ccc.amdahl.com (Karen Williams)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Re-joining the SCA as a Bandit
Date: 22 Dec 92 18:34:15 GMT
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <1992Dec21.225245.3949@epas.toronto.edu> nusbache@epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher) writes:

>Goddamn Westies.  Just get on the BART and boot over to the next group.

Give us a break, A.J. In the South Bay, we don't have BART. We have to get
in our cars and drive a whole five, maybe ten, minutes down the freeway to
get to the next group. :-)

Branwen ferch Emrys
The Mists, the West 





--
                                          Karen Williams
                                          branwen@cerebus.ras.amdahl.com
"Don't whine. Warrior women speak in a husky whisper."
  -- Brat Pack #3
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: nusbache@epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: fealty
Organization: University of Toronto - Office of the Provost
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 00:38:34 GMT

In article <9212300026.aa18161@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> SAUNDRSG@qucdn.queensu.ca (Graydon) writes:

>Given that SCA fealty practices are less than ideal, and that
>we're going to keep Crown Tournies, the definition of Crown
>(Sovereign and Consort acting in concert) presently in Corpora,
>and that the beauracracy is a seperate problem, what is the
>minimum set of principles neccessary to define a fealty structure
>that would be suitably period and praticable?

Given all those givens, it's very hard to keep it period.

From the information posted by Tibor the Reference Librarian, I think
the SCA's own rules -- requiring that one fealty on investiture,
without specifying anything at all about the oath -- is sufficiently
flexible to allow all sorts of period and practicable options.

Aryk

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mcdonald@athena.mit.edu (Steve McDonald)
Subject: Re: Fighting in crown: a thought
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 22:19:09 GMT

In article <1992Dec22.094830.5935@doug.cae.wisc.edu> pavao@cae.wisc.edu (Pavao Aaron) writes:
>Greetings to Aryk Nusbacher and those who read these lines!
>
>	First of all, I said nothing of winning Crown, just fighting there.
...
>	Besides, IF I ever get to Crown and IF I get to, say, the semi-finals,
>I'll either yield or die putting up a good fight.  I wouldn't wish to skew the
>contest too much (actually, the quarter-finals may be a good stopping-point as
>well...).

In regards to this comment, I would like to read a section from Corpora:
VI.A.1.b.  Selection of Royalty
	3) No one may take part in a Royal Lists, either as
	a competitor or as a prospective consort, who has any
	reason to believe that either member of that competing
	couple will be unable to fulfill the duties of royalty.


Now, this says "unable to fulfill" rather than "unwilling to fulfill".
However, it is obvious that our governing documents consider participation
in a Crown or Coronet Tourney to be rather more serious than a normal
tourney.  Careful consideration should be made before deciding to enter
a Crown Tourney.  East Kingdom law is more explicit:
Part II.C. Eligibility for the Crown Tourney
	6. No person shall enter the Crown Lists without
	intending an honorable attempt to compete for the Crown.

These were the things that came to my mind as I read the current
discussion, and I thought to mention them here.  It is obvious
that other parts of the Known World think differently than the East
Kingdom (given the discussion on this topic I have seen from those
in the West Kingdom in the past).  Still, Crown Tourney is a different
kind of event from the normal tourney, and I think that all fighters
should take it seriously.

					Stefan Skywatcher
					Carolingia, East Kingdom
					mcdonald@athena.mit.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: SAUNDRSG@qucdn.queensu.ca (Graydon)
Subject: fealty
Organization: The Internet
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 05:14:00 GMT

Given that SCA fealty practices are less than ideal, and that
we're going to keep Crown Tournies, the definition of Crown
(Sovereign and Consort acting in concert) presently in Corpora,
and that the beauracracy is a seperate problem, what is the
minimum set of principles neccessary to define a fealty structure
that would be suitably period and praticable?

(Of course I have an opinion about this; I'd rather have other
people's presented than mine shot up, though.)

Graydon
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: u883161@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Alex Tewes)
Subject: SCA Religion?Scope? Geo?(Was: Through a looking...)
Organization: University of Tasmania
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 23:13:58 GMT

Greetings!

To my mind, an old arab proverb best describes what makes the SCA different
and worthwhile.  For us " a stranger is truly just a brother or a sister we
have not yet met ".....

When I dropped the original pebble into the pond with my article "through a
looking glass, darkly", I just wanted to satisfy my curiosity as to why there
were few black faces around.  The many waves and reflections as the postings
drifted away have instead taught me much about what we are, and why we do what
we do.   Thank you all.

Martin de Mont Blanc (mka Alex Tewes )                          

u883161@postoffice.utas.edu.au       	       	       	       	       	       	       	       	       	       	       	       	       	   
 
Shire of Ynys Fawr/ Lochac/ West       		(That is Tasmania, AUSTRALIA)                            

Purpure, four bendlets enhanced
and in base a Mullet of five, Or


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: robear@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Jay Michael)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: On the Nature of Armor ...
Date: 29 Dec 92 03:22:59 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX

Lothar writes:
>Milord,
>
>As an aside. Why make scale armor, just for looks?  A fighter in our
>shire disguises his carpet armor under an oversized T-tunic. Several

Alas, fighters of the 8th century didn't wear T-tunics over their scale
or chain armor.  But, even aside from that, I just think that wearing an
actual coat of metal plates that looks and functions like real 8th century
armor would be, well, impressive =).  I'm always impressed by 'real' armor
as opposed to cosmetic disguise, so that is the direction I want to take
for my armor.  I'm still worried about fighting in it in 100 degree weather
though . . . maybe I can strap two containers for ice water on my helmet
with straws to my mouth so I could cool myself when I'm fighting (that's a 
joke, folks ;)

>fighters disquise their later period leg-harnesses under baggy sweat
>pants or "tube pants". The effect is very good at producing that
>"minimally armored" look that you see in most illustrations of Viking
>warriors and the like, and llooks very good, since only the helmet and
>gloves are visible.

I think I may do this to hide my knee cops, which I'm not supposed to have.
Alternately, I was thinking of high leather boots which could be strapped
around the knees, I believe that was acceptible footwear in 8th century
Europe.  Then again, a lot of fighters simply put the knee cop on and pretend
it's not there, just like we do with modern spectacles at revels.

Aelfgar von Echternach

(In thinking of a name for a possible late period Russian persona-Hmm, I like
the name 'Alexi', hmm, how about 'Alexi Romanov', I wonder if that name has
any historical similarities . . . .(looks up Russian history in Brittanica)
Gee, it _is_ kind of close to Alexis Romanov, second monarch in the Romanov
dynasty . . . oops! =)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: grimmund@edsi.plexus.COM (Grimmund Blackwing)
Subject: Re: Midrealm Crown Policy
Organization: Enterprise Data Systems Incorporated, Appleton WI
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1992 21:31:13 GMT


Bertram of Bearington explains Midrealm Crown Tourney policy and 
invites comments on same.

	Actually, I think Midrealm is only more restrictive in a formal 
sense.  I *think* that all kingdoms have a clause that allows them 
to bar any individual from fighting in Crown.  Midrealm has taken 
that to an extreme.  However, I do not think it is all that hard 
to get invited if one truly wishes to fight.
	One other observation:  the Midrealm tourney is open to all 
belted or baldriced fighters.  However, all who wish to contest 
for the Crown, both the Chivalry and those invited, must send a 
letter of intent, including their consort's name.
	Disclaimer:  I am not a fighter.  I have never been a fighter.  
I *have* been collecting armor bits for the last two years, and 
plan to spend my Christmas vacation making armor.  One day I 
maight even get authorized.  Don't hold your breath.

Grimmund Blackwing, Chirurgeon & Dance teacher
Queen's Own Shire of Windhaven, Northshield, Middle Kingdom   

From: Henry.Best@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Henry Best)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Period Calendar Wanted
Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1993 02:44:44

 AK> If you need a concrete example,  pretend that it's the autumn equinox,
 AK> by a modern clock the sun will rise at 6am and set at 6pm.  The 12
 AK> 'hours' of that day are each 60 modern minutes long.  Now suppose that
 AK> we are in a location (latitude) where on the winter solstice, the sun
 AK> rises at 9am and sets at 3pm.  The 12 'hours' of that day are each 30
 AK> modern minutes long.  I stated that I have never seen a sundial that
 AK> had *various* markings for the changing length of the 'hours' of the
 AK> day and asked if such a sundial did indeed exist.
           Milord, you are bound by the thinking of your watch.  Whether 
 the sun rises at 6 am or at 9 am, it rises at the horizon.  It proceeds 
 across the heavens, and it sets at the opposite horizon.  The different 
 lenght of the hours depend on how far north or south the sun is, but 
 the sundial isn't usually set so that it can tell the difference.  I 
 trust someone more familiar with sundials will expound further on this 
 topic.  Also, I *assume* that a period sundial would not be marked by 
 the specific modern hours, but rather by the canonical hours we've been 
 discussing previously....
     Gwenllian CfM, Ansteorra

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca