HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: furtaw@comm.mot.com (Bob Furtaw)
Subject: Re: Are there gliders around Huntsville, AL?
Organization: Motorola
Distribution: rec
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 20:29:03 GMT
Followup-To: rec.aviation.soaring

In article <1bk4ucINNm93@fido.asd.sgi.com>, myoung@joker.asd.sgi.com (mark
young) wrote:
> 
> In <TEET.92Oct15100531@jag.b17a.ingr.com> teet@jag.b17a.ingr.com (Teet Jagomagi) writes:
> 
> There is an airport north and east of town called moontown.  When I worked
> for intergraph, I went out there a couple of times.  One day they actually
> had a glider club open house.  Don't know how the conditions are for soaring
> though...never became a glider pilot.
> 
> btw, one of the astronauts from the last shuttle mission (name escapes me,
> the married female) learned to fly GA at moontown.
> 
That was Jan Davis.  I met her there also.

Bob Furtaw - W8IL
CFI-A/G/I/MEI, CGI-A/I
All disclaimers ever written by anybody apply. :-)
From: raveling@Unify.com (Paul Raveling)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring
Subject: Re: Glider Waxing
Date: 8 Oct 92 19:08:10 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Unify Corporation (Sacramento)


In article <BvpFwF.B69@avalon.nwc.navy.mil>, tks@kestrel.nwc.navy.mil (Tom Serkowski) writes:
> I use Meguiars (sp?) Classic car cleaner/wax with the blessing of my sailplane repairman. ...

	Does anyone know of comparative performance tests for
	different techniques of wing preparation?

	I'm curious because similar questions apply to racing sailboats
	that are stored out of the water -- i.e., those with gelcoat
	rather than bottom paint below the waterline.  The majority
	opinion among those racing such boats was clearly to avoid
	waxing below the waterline, but to keep the gelcoat in shape
	by wet sanding with 600-grit paper, then buffing.

	When I was into racing sailboats, virtually all racers had
	concluded that waxing hurt performance.  It's possible that
	wax could countribute to boundary layer disturbances or
	increased skin friction.

	So if anyone knows of comparative performance tests, I'd
	be interested in the results.  I'd appreciate copies of
	followups by email -- it looks like our news server is retaining
	articles on this group for less than a day right now.


------------------
Paul Raveling
Raveling@Unify.com
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring
From: furtaw@comm.mot.com (Bob Furtaw)
Subject: Re: Are there gliders around Huntsville, AL?
Organization: Motorola
Distribution: rec
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 20:27:11 GMT
Followup-To: rec.aviation.soaring

In article <TEET.92Oct15100531@jag.b17a.ingr.com>, teet@jag.b17a.ingr.com
(Teet Jagomagi) wrote:
> 
> I started gliding 2 years ago in Estonia. I will work at Intergraph, and stay 
> in Huntsville, AL for a half a year. Are there gliders not too far from 
> Huntsville and enough brave instructors to let me compare estonian and 
> american air?

Head out to Moontown airport just east of Huntsville and inquire.  Nice
bunch of guys!  Membership required to use the gliders but it's very
reasonable.  Many INGR employees are users of the airport.  Surprised you
havn't run into any yet.

Bob Furtaw - W8IL
CFI-A/G/I/MEI, CGI-A/I
All disclaimers ever written by anybody apply. :-)
From: dela@ee.rochester.edu (Del Armstrong)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring
Subject: Re: How to get started in upstate New York
Keywords: RSC, Dansville, Intro Rides
Date: 12 Oct 92 13:05:10 GMT
Reply-To: dela@ee.rochester.edu (Del Armstrong)
Distribution: wny
Organization: University of Rochester - Dept of Electrical Engineering

In article <1992Oct9.134319.19079@ultb.isc.rit.edu>, ptc8827@ritvax.isc.rit.edu writes:
|>	I am new to sailplanes but often see them in the Harris Hill area 
|>on my way up to Rochester, NY.  I would like to take an introductory ride

There is also the Rochester Soaring Club, which flies out of Dansville
NY. The RSC offers two types of arrangements which might appeal to
you.

   1) We offer rides for $35.00. 

   2) We also have a "Student Membership", where for $75.00 we'll send
   you up with an instructor 3 times. 

We fly Saturday and Sunday, weather permitting, until the end of
November. You can just show up, and we'll try to accommodate you ...
but we don't always have the requisite commercial or instructor pilots
on the field. You can also contact Rick Lafford
(lafford@serum.kodak.com) at (716) 235-9042 to schedule a flight in
advance.

Dansville is about 50 minutes south of Rochester, just take 390 south
until you see the Dansville exit. Turn left off the exit, and then
right. Dansville airport is on your left, right before the McDonald's. 

Feel free to contact me if you'd like to know more about the RSC.

	Del Armstrong

 Fast:      dela@ee.rochester.edu
 Slow:      {decvax,garp,harvard,hombre,rutgers}!rochester!ur-valhalla!dela
 Slowest:   University of Rochester
            Dept. of Electrical Engineering
            Rochester, NY   14627

"What if there were no hypothetical situations?" -Jeff Sauder
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring
From: HAHLLUND@finabo.abo.fi (Hans Ahllund Inf)
Subject: re:waxing
Organization: Abo Akademi University, Finland
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 14:50:15 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.23

> bedford@hobbes.ucsd.edu (Don Bedford)         writes......
>Date: 12 Oct 92 22:48:06 GMT
>True, that waxing is slow on a sailboat.  Racers wet sand with 600+ sand
>paper to reduce friction and still induce laminar flow.  Keeping a thin
>layer of water "sticking" to the hull induces the least amount of friction
>on a hull moving through water.  A waxed hull does not have this thin layer
>attached to the hull.  I assume that this is also true for air moving over
>a wing but as the speed of a plane if faster and the medium is thinner (air)
>I wonder what the ideal smoothness of a wing would be (?)


I have experienced that a well waxed wing is better in glide performace, 
especially at high speeds. But if it rains , the waxed wing works dreadfully.
Many PIK-20 owners just sanded their wings with 800 wet sand paper, that
improved performace dramatically in rain, but this kind of wing
had to be handled with silk glowes.

Why not use hard-wax. It's much better...
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring
From: rcg@delphi.dseg.ti.com (bob gibbons)
Subject: World Class glider evaluations
Organization: Texas Instruments
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 19:10:05 GMT

I had a brief conversation with Dick Johnson this weekend regarding the
World Class glider evaluations. Dick has just returned from 4 weeks in
Germany where he served as a test pilot on the evaluations. 

Dick declined to post a formal review on the evaluations, preferring to
leave that for the jury to formally release. However, he did give me
some information that he felt could be shared.

There were 12 gliders scheduled to show, 7 of which actually arrived. Of
these 7, 5 were actually flight evaluated. These were,
  Polish SZD-51-2, 15m, fiberglass
  Polish PW5, 13m, student designed 
  Czechoslovakian L33, 14m, all metal, from the Blanik factory
  Russian R2, 12.5m, 112kg empty wt.
  Italian Velino, 11m

The American entry, the Cygnet, and a Russian entry (11m span, 99kg wt.)
arrived but were judged as "insufficiently prepared" for flight
evaluation, but were statically judged. As a side note, the entries were
not required to have C of A's in their country of origin, but had to be
"airworthy as prototypes".

Wingpanels arrived from a Hungarian entry, and a German entry from
Hamburg was present with no controls installed.

Over a span of 3 weeks, 106 flights were conducted, totalling
approximately 75 flight hours.

The jury will be releasing a formal report at some later date.
--
Bob Gibbons				Texas Instruments
Internet: rcg@delphi.dseg.ti.com	Dallas, TX
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring
From: HAHLLUND@finabo.abo.fi (Hans Ahllund Inf)
Subject: re:ballasting...
Organization: Abo Akademi University, Finland
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 18:13:43 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.23


>Unfortunately, I am not too terribly clear on why the glide ratio changes.
>Since the new gliders can change the wing loading thru a tremendous range
>the Re numbers will change significantly. Perhaps this is one of the 
>reasons.

I think the better glide ratio of a heavier ship has to do with the fact
that modern wing profiles are optimised to fly at higher speeds.
So, when the best glide-speed is increased , the induced drag is decreased.
But the harmful "profile-drag" is still quite small.


By the way.......
Have you heard that GLASER-DIRKS is making a new wing profile for the
DG-600. It is well known that the old wing profile was good in glide
but terrible in thermalling. The aircraft just would not climb.
It even has an electrical stall warning system...
So , the factory had to figure out a way to change the wing-profile
without loosing it's face to the customers. 
Simple , they arranged a fire in the factory which destroyed the old
wing molds..

I've heard that the LS-7 , which had the same problem , has a new wing
too. Changed quietly, without the public noticing it....
From: peny@ppc.lpc.ethz.ch (Peter Nyffeler ,x4399)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring
Subject: soaring in BRASIL ?
Date: 15 Oct 92 20:42:28 GMT
Reply-To: peny@ppc.lpc.ethz.ch
Organization: ETH-Zuerich, Physical-Chemistry-Lab. - Switzerland

I will spend my next holliday in Brasil and would like to make a soaring fligth there.

Is there anyone how can e-mail me, who I sould contact?

Thanks   Peter Nyffeler (member of Soaring Club Zurich, Switzerland)
From: verhulst@raven.aosg.gsf.dec.com
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring
Subject: Super Blanik L23
Date: 9 Oct 92 14:52:38 GMT
Organization: AOSG

Got a chance to fly the new Super Blanik L23 the other day.  I like the ship alot.
It was a windy day 15/25kts on the ground and 40 kts aloft.  I'd flown
4 commercial glider rides in a 2-33 and had to do some fancy stick work close
to the ground.  So, I ws impressed when the Blanik just lifted off the ground
and tracked the tow plane without any work at all.  This is a large glider
and handles accordingly - still it's a pleasure to fly.  Spin entry and exit
are textbook and are no problem at all.  From a lease back or FBO point of
view, this is probably the 2 place glider to buy IMHO.  It's a good trainer
and commercial ride ship and, being all metal construction, can be left outside
for long periods of time without long periods of time.

Tony V
COMM - glider
PP - ASEL
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring
Subject: Re: Nearly...
From: Bruce.Hoult@bbs.actrix.gen.nz
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 06:54:48 GMT
Organization: Actrix Information Exchange

Oops!

Someone emailed me in reply to this thread, but I accidently deleted
the message before reading it..  :-(
-- 
Bruce.Hoult@bbs.actrix.gen.nz   Twisted pair: +64 4 477 2116
BIX: brucehoult                 Last Resort:  PO Box 4145 Wellington, NZ
"Cray's producing a 500 MIPS personal computer with 256MB RAM and 8 GB
hard disk that fits in your pocket!"   "Great!  Is it PC compatible?"
From: sandee@Think.COM (Daan Sandee)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring
Subject: Re: dustdevils (was: Hunting for thermals.
Date: 8 Oct 1992 22:18:45 GMT
Organization: TMC
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: telecaster.think.com

In article <1992Oct8.204614.28488@tc.fluke.COM>, xcskier@tc.fluke.COM (John Gilbert) writes:
|> In article <2OCT199209514603@vxcrna.cern.ch> cohler@vxcrna.cern.ch (Mike Cohler) writes:
|> >....
|> >cloud... these indicate sink.     As for sources of thermals.... in the UK
|> >we use a variety of indicators... towns, brown fields... rape fields.....
|> >....
|> >Mike
|> >
|> Mike, what's a rape field?  Must be a colloquialism, I've never heard it.

        a brassicaceous plant, Brassica Napus, whose leaves are used for
        food for hogs, sheep, etc., and whose seeds yield rape oil.

|> To add to the many followups, in eastern Washington (state) we often have
|> dry weather during soaring season.  Thermals will create a 'dust devil'
|> in the plowed fields, that looks like a brown tornado!  I've seen dust
|> devils extend to heights of 3-4000 feet agl, and that's a great indicator,
|> especially on blue days!  When fronts are moving through, there will be a
|> line of devils along the shear line of the front. 

Best dust-devil I ever saw was in Greece, over a burnt stubble field. BLACK
(both the field and the dust devil). The absorption coefficient of the soil
must have been near 100% and it would have certainly have scorched your
feet to watch across it.

Also often observed in dust devils is aluminum foil from cigarette packs
and candy bars.

ObSoaring : Can't say I can come up with tall stories of actually using
one to climb. But in a milder variety, mere 1000 fpm ones, I've harvested
hay at 4000' agl - great chunks of it floating around.

Daan Sandee                                           sandee@think.com
Thinking Machines Corporation
Cambridge, Mass 02142                                 (617) 234-5044
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring
From: ptc8827@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Subject: How to get started in upstate New York
Reply-To: ptc8827@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 13:43:19 GMT


	Hello all,
	I am new to sailplanes but often see them in the Harris Hill area 
on my way up to Rochester, NY.  I would like to take an introductory ride
sometime.  Am I too late in the year?  Does this even matter?
	Also, is there anyplace closer to Rochester than Harris Hill?
	If anyone out there could give me information about where to go
and how much it would cost to get a taste of the sport, I would really 
appreciate it.

		Thanks in advance,
			Paul
From: kaye@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Kaye Stott)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring
Subject: Re: Hunting for thermals.
Date: 12 Oct 92 09:39:58 GMT
Organization: The University of Westrn Australia
NNTP-Posting-Host: uniwa.uwa.edu.au
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

Mike Cohler (cohler@vxcrna.cern.ch) wrote:
: In article <1992Oct8.204614.28488@tc.fluke.COM>, xcskier@tc.fluke.COM (John Gilbert) writes...
: >In article <2OCT199209514603@vxcrna.cern.ch> cohler@vxcrna.cern.ch (Mike Cohler) writes:
: >>....
: >>cloud... these indicate sink.     As for sources of thermals.... in the UK
: >>we use a variety of indicators... towns, brown fields... rape fields.....
: >>....
: >>Mike
: >>
: >Mike, what's a rape field?  Must be a colloquialism, I've never heard it.
: > 
: lines deleted> 
: >John Gilbert
:
Rape is more commonly known as cannola (sp?) these days. Right now it is
flowering, a vivid yellow. When outlanding we have to be careful to
distinguish it from paddocks left fallow and covered with cape weed, which
flowers at the same time of year and with a similar colour.

Kaye
 
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring
From: milgram@wam.umd.edu (Judah H. Milgram)
Subject: Re: World class gliders
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 18:58:59 GMT

>	Specifically, the American entry was removed from the competition; I
>believe all gliders designed and built specifically for the World Class Glider
>competition were removed as well.

Does anyone know how much flying the American entry did before going over
to Paderborn?

- Judah Milgram
milgram@eng.umd.edu

Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring
From: fred@isl.Stanford.EDU (Fred Vachss)
Subject: Re: L/D vs. wing loading
Organization: Stanford University
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 92 17:11:31 GMT

The folks that say that wing loading shouldn't affect L/D so long as the
the shape of the wing stays the same are pretty much correct (apart from
things like compressibility effects which are small at glider speeds).  The
fact of the matter, though, is that gliders do deform as a function of wing
loading.  Furthermore, they do so predictably and thus a glider can be
designed to achieve its optimal L/D at a given wing loading.  At other loadings
the shape of the glider (mostly the amount of anhedral/dihedral I'd guess)
varies slightly from this optimum and L/D also changes.

My experience with these effects in sailplanes is very limited and from reading
this discussion they appear to be small in any case.  In hang gliders, however,
where the airframe is much more flexible, the effects can be pronounced.
Overload a hang glider by 50 pounds or more and the high speed penetration
will improve, but the wing will usually distort enough so that max L/D suffers.
The effects on sink rate, launching and landing (if you don't dump the ballast)
are generally more significant than the L/D effects, though, so hang gliders 
generally don't get ballasted to the point where the L/D really goes to hell.


Fred Vachss
USHGA Advanced Instructor / Examiner
Ventura County, CA


Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring
From: hagood@sabre.den.mmc.com (Dave Hagood)
Subject: Re: Super Blanik L23
Organization: Martin Marietta Astronautics Group
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 17:48:11 GMT

In article <1992Oct9.145238.6346@aosg.gsf.dec.com>, verhulst@raven.aosg.gsf.dec.com writes:
|> Got a chance to fly the new Super Blanik L23 the other day.  I like the ship alot.
|> It was a windy day 15/25kts on the ground and 40 kts aloft.  I'd flown
|> 4 commercial glider rides in a 2-33 and had to do some fancy stick work close
|> to the ground.  So, I ws impressed when the Blanik just lifted off the ground
|> and tracked the tow plane without any work at all.  This is a large glider
|> and handles accordingly - still it's a pleasure to fly.  Spin entry and exit
|> are textbook and are no problem at all.  From a lease back or FBO point of
|> view, this is probably the 2 place glider to buy IMHO.  It's a good trainer
|> and commercial ride ship and, being all metal construction, can be left outside
|> for long periods of time without long periods of time.

	Yah, but:  1)  This stick forces are rather higher.  Several people I
have talked to commented that they were tired after wrestling with the stick
while on tow.  Elevator forces are OK, but aileron forces seemed very high.
2)  Poor cockpit ergonomics.  It's better than the L-13, but still kind of 
weird.

	Disclaimer:  I didn't fly it myself, but talked to the 13 or so people
that did.  Your mileage may vary.

	Also, we (Black Forest) will have a PZL Krosno on leaseback for the 
month of November.  I'll report on that later.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
									|
David M. Hagood			Martin Marietta Astronautics Group	|
									|
Voice:  (303) 977-9657		When in danger, or in doubt,		|
E-mail: hagood@den.mmc.com	Run in circles, scream and shout.	|
Fax: (303) 977-1530							|
									|
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
     static char *disclaimer = "My opinions, not Martin Marietta's."    |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: rjc@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Rich Carr)
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 14:02:05 GMT
Subject: Re: Scratching
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.soaring

> Clarence See, in the course of forty or more years of flying sailplanes,
> told me that exactly *twice* he has thermaled up in the blue to  the 
> condensation level and had a cumulus start to form all around him -- i.e.
> he was indeed at the very top of the bubble.  This is possible if the thermal
> follows the torroidal bubble model, the sailplane is well centered in the
> core and the core rate of rise exceeds the overall rate of rise by more
> than the sink rate of the sailplane.  Pretty neat.  
> -- 
> Evan Ludeman   
> astroatc!ludeman@spool.cs.wisc.edu 

I've had this happen to me at least once.  The sky was perhaps 1/10
scattered cumulus.  I was climbing in a blue thermal about 1500 feet
below the predominant cloudbase when wisps began to form around me.  I
widened my circle to stay in the clear and watched the wisps form a small
cloud.  It only lasted a few minutes before dissipating again.

I think there are other explanations than the bubble model.  In this
case, I think the thermal just happened to be moister than the rest of
the thermals, as evidenced by the lower level of condensation.


Rich Carr
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: bboswell@dante.NMSU.Edu (BOSWELL)
Subject: Re: PC-based Flight Simulators
Organization: New Mexico State University
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 20:40:06 GMT

In article <1ag1otINNeml@eagle.natinst.com> bobc@natinst.com (Bob Conyne)  
writes:
> I apologize in advance if this question has already been asked 10,000 times
> (there were some 600 unread messages in this newsgroup, and I really didn't
> have the diligence to pore over them all).
> 
> Is there any value at all to practicing the lessons on Microsoft Flight
> Simulator?  How close to "the real thing" is it (especially if you have a
> control yoke for a joystick)?  I am by no means suggesting that this should 
> be considered an alternative to actual flight time (neither does the FAA, 
> thank goodness).  But I'm wondering how many of you pilots out there who have 
> tried it consider it anything more than just an amusing toy.
> 
> I noticed in a recent issue of "Private Pilot" that there is a company that
> sells a control yoke/rudder combination that has the same dimensions as that
> of a Cessna (172, I think).  It costs $200.  Would this make MSFS realistic
> enough to warrant the expense?  Has anybody bought one?  How useful have you
> found it?
> 
> Finally, there are several "more expensive" simulators advertised in the
> flying mags (usually $350-$600).  Are these significant improvements over 
> MSFS?  Would my $350 be better spent on real flying lessons?
> 
> You can email me directly: bobc@natinst.com.
> 
> Thanks!
> --Bob
From my experiences w/Microsoft Flight Simulator 4.0, not close at all.  Having  
to hit Scroll Lock and a number pad key while flying the pattern is much more  
difficult and time-consuming than glancing over your shoulder such as you would  
in actual flight.  I don't think there's a flight simulator on the market that  
corrects this easily.  Also, using joysticks is a pain.  I tried using one as  
the primary flight control (elevator and alieron/rudder [under  
auto-coordination]), but even with elevator-centering off, the stick has a  
nasty habit of drifting when you don't need (much less want!) it to.  I'd try a  
yoke, but there isn't one that's reasonable priced on the market yet.
My analysis?  A real plane is much easier to fly, but MS flight sim teaches you  
the basic dynamics of flight pretty well (i.e. pulling up bleeds of airspeed  
and can stall you if you do it too vigorously).  Also, I wish you had ATC (or  
even UNICOM!) communications for all those Lears and Cessnas that can majically  
fly through you (apparently unscathed and leaving you the same way) while in  
the pattern at Meigs Field, Chicago.  After all, you do get "Building Crash" if  
you decide the John Hancock tower isn't the most beautiful addition to the  
Chicago skyline.  Oh yeah, watch for the Sears Tower if going IFR low-altitude  
from Meigs to O'Hare, it has a nasty habit of being directly in your flight  
path and jumping out of the clouds at you...