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Date:         Sun, 16 Aug 1992 14:49:00 +1000
From:         DAVIDB@VAXC.CC.MONASH.EDU.AU
Subject:      IN: Bishop of Dili interview 2
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/* Written  7:03 pm  Aug 12, 1992 by igc:apakabar in

reg.indonesia*/  */Topic 614  Belo 'Matra' Interview - 2 */





Remark: The untranslated part of the interview (noted by the

poster in the text below) dealing with leaders and businessmen

links seems a none too subtle attack on the greed of Soeharto

and  his children's business empires.  Perhaps it could be

included  as a response to this topic.  -- John

(apakabar@igc.apc.org)



Forwarded from GreenNet reg.easttimor conference:

Topic 355'Matra' interviews Belo: Part II

gn:tapolreg.easttimor11:47 pm  Aug 12, 1992



Matra interview of Bishop Beli: Part II



Q:   Why is it that recently you have not said much?

A:   It's difficult. When I speak, my words are

misinterpreted. Newspapers and journals are not neutral when

they report what I say. They are biased. They don't consider

all sides of the question; only one side is highlighted. What

should I say to such journalists or press organs?



Q:   Do you think that the Indonesian press is biased?

A:   One would need to make a careful analysis to say that.

But it's my impression that the Indonesian press is being

manipulated. Ha... ha... ha!



Q:   Was this especially apparent in the reporting about the

12 November incident?

A:   Since long before that. Many people wrote very biased

things without seeking confirmation from me. I have often been

very disappointed.



Q:   The courts have started passing down verdicts on people

charged in connection with the 12 November incident. What, in

your opinion, was the cause of that incident?

A:   We need to examine a number factors in relation to 12

November. Many opinions need to be heard and scrutinised.

Those young people had long been complaining that there was no

work for them after leaving school. Some said that colonialism

is emerging in East Timor. All the teachers are from outside,

all the civil servants are from outside. Go into any

government office and all the employees are from outside. For

the simplest jobs in road-building, they bring in people from

outside. And these workers bring their children and their

brothers and sisters.



Q:   Do you think that it was lack of employment that

influenced the young people to take action?

A:   The lack of jobs is not the main thing. They see that

there are many vacancies and wonder why they are filled by

people from outside. Just go into any office and you will see

only one or two people from here. The vast majority are

outsiders. Take for instance the Department of Religious

Affairs, where there are only one or two Timorese. The

district religious offices are also all headed by people from

outside. People forget that the majority of people here are

Catholics. How is it possible for other religious people to

understand the affairs of the majority of people here in East

Timor?

     Then, it is said that lots of factories will be set up,

a pineapple cannery, a sugar-mill, and many others as well.

But none of this has happened. So people begin to ask why,

isn't there something wrong? People don't want to come here

because they won't be able to make profits from East Timor, or

perhaps because there are plenty of other possibilities.

People hope for large-scale investments. Java has become the

industrial centre. Are we, who are on the fringes, only to be

the garden? I know that Java is preferred by investors because

it has many facilities that don't exist elsewhere. But those

investors should be motivated by the spirit of nationalism,

meaning that they would consider investment in East Timor not

merely on the basis of business calculations, but take other

considerations into account and realise that places outside

Java also need attention.



Q:   Young people in Dili are seen as being bent on holding

demonstrations. Do you, in your day-to-day contact with the

community, have the same impression?

A:   It should be carefully investigated. We are often too

quick to level accusations. Sometimes, I see among the young

people others who are running the show, directors on top of

the directors. Another thing that needs to be examined is that

certain people know that a movement is in preparation but

allow the balloon to get bigger and bigger until it bursts. In

actual fact, the aspirations being articulated by the young

people here are part of the dynamic of all young people. It

happens not only here but also in Jakarta, in Bandung, in

Korea, in Palestine. Why is it that in other places, young

people can speak up but they must keep silent here?



Q:   Some people say that the young people who are accused of

holding demonstrations are the products of the education

system set up after integration.

A:   Not only that. What is more important is that they have

studied the 1945 Constitution the Preamble of which states

that all forms of colonialism must cease everywhere in the

world. They have learnt from that. They see the reality in

their everyday lives, they see the leaders of society, the

people in charge here.



Q:   From what you know, are there problems with education

here in East Timor?

A:   The most striking progress here has indeed been made in

the field of education. There are many schools, even down to

the villages. But this is where I hear the most complaints.

The progress has only been in quantity, not in the quality of

education. I get complaints about teachers who don't turn up,

teachers going to meetings, teachers going on tour to all

kinds of places in connection with duties that have nothing to

do with their pupils. I have the impression that it's the kids

who are teaching the teachers. Many people ask why this is

allowed to happen. These days in East Timor, there is no

national discipline in the education sector.



Q:   We hear of many teachers being beaten by their pupils.

Why is that?

A:   There are many reasons. There are many repressed feelings

among the younger generation. They complain that more and more

teachers are being brought in from outside - outsiders. They

say that the teachers are often dishonest.

     Since integration, it has become the custom for all

pupils to go up to the next class every year, regardless of

whether they are clever or dunces. Everyone passes. Is that

honest? The result is, that if, suddenly, some pupils don't go

up, they blame the teacher. So the pupils beat the teachers

because they think that everyone should pass and go up. I

blame the teachers for this, or perhaps the fault lies with

the instructions they get from above, the wrong approach.

Maybe, they want to win sympathy but it boomerangs. To say

nothing of 'envelopes', bribes; we are seeing more and more of

such things. This is why I often say that there is no

education in the field of education.



Q:   If the pupils misbehave, is it all their fault?

A:   Oh, the pupils also make mistakes, but I think that most

of the blame lies with those who are supposed to be doing the

educating. The teachers and others are turning the schools and

pupils into a political arena. They come under the influence

of a variety of interests. So, the young people split up into

groups. Some are with the anti-integration groups, others with

the pro-integrationists. This is utilised for purposes which

are not understood by the school-children, to spy on suspects.



Q:   Speaking about what prompted the 12 November incident,

you said just now that there were many factors. Can you

mention some of the other factors?

A:   Their most fundamental complaint is that the question of

integration has not yet been resolved in a peaceful and

democratic way. Integration is already a fact but it must be

for us to accept it. It is for us to decide, for us to accept

or reject integration. Integration is not something that can

be forced. If integration is a fact, we should be treated

properly, like citizens in other parts of Indonesia. The young

people here complain, saying it's as if East Timor is a region

won in battle, a military conquest, not a region integrated in

an acceptable way by the motherland. These are the complaints

that I hear.



Q:   What about Fretilin?

A:   Yes, Fretilin and Xanana Gusmao (Xanana Gusmao, who is

known as the president of Fretilin [sic] Ed) still exert some

influence. People who still want to follow Xanana believe that

the fire of independence should not be extinguished. But apart

from this, one should also take account of the fact that ABRI

was unable to control itself during that incident. Another

important factor is that many civilians, many East Timorese

who were in the lead, were from the intel, spying on their

fellow East Timorese. During August, September and October, up

to the time of the 12 November outburst, many people were

divided into two groups. One was the group of intel agents,

while the other consisted of those who were being reported by

these agents.



Q:   Which group were you in?

A:   I was among those being reported... ha... ha... ha! There

were all kinds of reports. That I had held illegal meetings in

my home, that I had hidden weapons, that I had sent letters

abroad. Every move I made was monitored, my sermons were

taped, my letters were censored.



Q:   Is there any truth in reports that your home was used to

hide weapons and as a refuge for demonstrators?

A:   Loving care is part of the work of priests and bishops.

Our work has nothing to do with weapons. If someone comes and

asks for protection, we have to respond, whatever their

politics. They are human beings, creatures of God.



Q:   Does the fact that your personal letters have been

disseminated mean that there are intel agents inside the

church or in your own household?

A:   Yes, it does. I know that. After meetings to discuss

church affairs, there are often people who report. I know

there are people who are under instructions or being paid to

listen to everything I say, follow all my statements, get hold

of my letters. Take for instance the letter (of 6 February

1989) to the UN Secretary-General about the need to hold a

referendum. The day after it was sent, the general public knew

all about it. Very strange. They are right inside my circle.

The letter had been taken from a place which only people close

to me know anything about. We shouldn't be surprised at such

things; anything can happen here. Once, in a sermon, I got

rather angry and insinuated: "Those of you who drink tea from

Indonesia or who eat white rice from Indonesia listen

carefully."



Q:   Does this kind of thing worry you?

A:   As far as that letter was concerned, I felt worried but

also not worried. What worried me was that many people did not

like what I did. But in the end, I thought, OK, and I calmed

down. If the letter was now in the public domain, there was

nothing I could do about it. I hoped that it could be

discussed publicly in order to find a peaceful and just

solution for East Timor. I am not worried about the intel

agents. I know the ones who follow me, who are watching me.

When I give lectures or sermons, I know the people who are

sitting in front of me. I speak to everyone. Maybe they will

repent.



Q:   Do you think that what they are doing is wrong?

A:   I don't think it's wrong, but it is not pleasant, not the

decent thing to do. I don't like it. And it makes me feel that

this is a police state. Everything I do, all my activities,

every word, are followed and monitored. It shouldn't be like

this. With such things happening, I feel that I am living in

a police state. From what I have learnt about Pancasila, I

tend to think that this is not the Indonesia that aspires to

Pancasila. But this is all happening right here in East Timor.



Q:   During one court hearing, you were mentioned as the

conduit for sending state documents to Ramos-Horta. Did that

actually happen?

A:   I wrote about that to the Attorney-General and the

regional chief of police. I explained that I did not know the

witness who mentioned my name in the court. That person

probably knew me or had met me because I meet many people in

the congregation. But I did not personally know the person who

was being charged or the witnesses. Many people come to my

home but no-one has ever come bringing secret state documents

to be sent abroad. That's the first point. The second point is

that I don't know Ramos-Horta's address and I have never had

any dealings with him.  When he was studying in Dili, I was

abroad. I don't know what he is up to now. What I do know is

that his father was a district chief in Portuguese times.

Q:   Supposing someone came and gave you secret state

documents....

A:   I would certainly hand them back (Mgr Belo quickly

interrupted). As the leader of an important institution, why

should I get involved in such things? What for? I think it's

quite unnecessary. Perhaps I should say too that after my name

was mentioned in court, the wife of that person came to my

home one evening. She asked for forgiveness for her husband

who had mentioned my name in court. I told her, never mind.

For me, the matter is closed. What is important for me is that

such a thing should not happen again.

     What I do regret it that there are attempts to corner me

and blame me. And the press went ahead and reported the news.

This is perhaps what is called trial by the press. This is

what I dislike. Even though I had written to the Attorney-

General, the Indonesian press all over the country reported

that I was involved. This is the extraordinary thing about the

Indonesian press. I was being punished without anyone

listening to what I, the person in question, had to say. That

news was very biased indeed.



Q:   Where does the diocese get its funds from?

A:   We live primarily from funds from the congregation. If

they live in impoverished circumstances, we can't do better

than that. We also get funds from the government, 400 to 500

million rupiahs a year. This comes from the Department of

Religious Affairs and goes direct to the parishes throughout

East Timor to build or repair churches and chapels. We also

get small amounts from the Vatican, primarily for seminars and

religious teachers. The amount depends or our requests and the

ability of the Vatican. We plan to build a new office at the

side of the cathedral, but we don't yet have enough money.

Q:   Next year, the MPR (People's Consultative Assembly) will

meet. Do you have any special hopes?

A:   Sometimes I ask myself whether this is a republic or a

monarchy. Isn't there anyone else in Indonesia who can come

forward as a new leader. Maybe there is. But perhaps the

system is incapable of producing a new leader. Or it may be

that many people have resigned themselves to things as they

are or don't want to put themselves forward.



Q:   And so?

A:   We in East Timor are a little influenced by western

culture. For instance, if a village head has served for four

years, it's time for someone new to take over. Replacing

people is a normal process.



Q:   What kind of democracy do you think we should have?  A:

For me, democracy should be more active. I constantly  hear

people talking about Pancasila democracy. I think that

Pancasila democracy should also be active. Bring it into line

with the demands of development and progress for the nation.

When I heard that a Forum Demokrasi had been set up and what

it planned to do, I was delighted.



Q:   If invited, would you join the FD?

A:   If I'm allowed to, I'd like to join. But why haven't we

heard anything recently about its activities. Is it dead? The

last I heard was that it wanted to hold a halal bihalal

[gathering to mark the end of Ramadhan] but this was banned.

Ha... ha... ha!



Q:   To what extent do you think we can fight for a more open

democracy?

A:   I think there should be confidence in the nation's

ability to become mature. For this we need to have a climate

in which differences of opinion are valued. If we can't have

this, the nation will go on being an infant. When shall we

grow up? It's time the organs of social control were given

greater freedom of action. There should also be more freedom

of assembly. For instance, if the three political parties are

incapable of taking on board people's aspirations, maybe

there's need for an alternative. But, please excuse me, I

don't want to be a teacher of democracy.



Q:   What in your view should be expected of a leader?

A:   A leader should set the example for the nation and know

how to lead the nation, give wise and just leadership for all

groups and all individuals, and be capable of encouraging all

the vitality in society.



[Two questions and answers about leadership problems and the

danger of close liaisons between leaders and business in

various countries are omitted.]



Q:   Here in East Timor, there is said to be a monopoly

controlling the coffee trade.


is very damaging for the people. People are no longer

interested in tending their coffee gardens. They are only

allowed to sell to one businessman who gives them a very low

price, below the market price.

     I'm not a coffee grower but I've suffered from the

situation personally. Once when I was returning from Ermera,

the local congregation gave me a gift which they put in my

car. On my way back to Dili, I was stopped by soldiers who

said that the bishop wasn't allowed to transport coffee, even

if it was a gift. Ha... ha... ha! They said there were

instructions from above. So they took my gift of coffee. The

officer said the coffee would be taken to the district

military command for inspection. The next day, I asked the

governor whether there was a ban on individuals carrying

coffee even when the quantity was small. He was astonished. He

told me not to bother. Ha... ha... ha! It was only a few dozen

kilos of coffee. It's such treatment that shows how

constricted we are. I heard that even as recently as last

year, people's coffee was being taken. Yet, many East Timorese

depend on coffee for their livelihood.



Q:   What hopes do you have of the central government?

A:   It should give proper attention to East Timor. If

possible give it broader autonomy or special status. We have

a different history, a different culture. It is the right of

the President to decide. There are many aspects that need to

be studied for special autonomy. I don't know whether it

should be the same as in Yogya or Aceh. What's important is

that the governance and culture of East Timor should be given

proper attention. And there should be changes in security

policy. I know that we could be submerged if we were to go it

alone. We don't have the skilled personnel, there isn't enough

infrastructure. That's why we are part of Indonesia. But by

choosing to join, it doesn't mean that the cultural

differences and the different background should be ignored.

Q:   Who selects and looks after your clothes?

A:   I go to the shop or the tailor myself and wear ordinary

clothes but even so, many people surround me and want to kiss

my hand. Even though here in front of my home there is a

beautiful beach, I've only been there once. Many people came

and asked me, 'Why are you going to the beach?' Strange, isn't

it, yet all I want is to be like other people. People here

can't understand that a bishop is not an angel, he's just a

normal human being like everyone else, who wants to do sports

and to have some recreation. They want the bishop to live a

life apart, not to mingle with people at the grass-roots or

play football, not to go on pleasure trips. I am expected to

wear my robe whenever I go out. But I personally don't want to

be hidebound all the time by these formalities. I am a member

of the Salesian Order which was set up by Dom Bosco who worked

with the youth. I joined the Salesians precisely because I

want to live among the people. For a Salesian to be moved to

Dili and become the bishop was like going to prison. Ha...

ha... ha! I had to stop doing sports, to stop mixing with

young people. But I must turn this prison into something

worthwhile.



Q:   Do you balance this with music?

A:   Yes, I like music very much. Indonesian kroncong,

Indonesian or western pop. Also classical music and rock.

Ha... ha... ha! Beatles and Beethoven, especially his Ninth

Symphony. I always try to buy new cassettes. Whenever I go to

Jakarta, I always bring home one or two cassettes.



Q:   What do you feel when you listen to Beethoven's Ninth?

A:   The greatness of God. I like listening to it when I work.

I always play music when I am working. Classics when I am

reading. Rock when I am writing. I feel more productive when

I am listening to something. Does this sound strange for a

bishop? Ha... ha... ha!



Q:   Do you often watch football on television?

A:   I like football. Sometimes I wake up at 2 in the morning

to watch a football match in Europe. Koeman and Gullit are

some that I like to watch. I don't like boxing. This is a

punishing sport. The body, the face is punched. I regard sport

as something to make us more humane, sportive, to appreciate

one's rival. Sport teaches us to compete peacefully, in a

state of equality and balance. I much prefer sports to

international meetings or negotiations. Ha... ha... ha!



Q:   Do you have any time to read?

A:   Yes. I try to find time every day to read. I read books

about theology and sometimes about history. At present I am

reading a book by a Spanish priest giving an assessment of

Christ in the present day.



Q:   What are your plans when you stop being the Bishop of

Dili?

A:   I want to go abroad to serve other nations, anywhere

where I may be needed. Perhaps to China, Africa or Latin

America. I want to contribute part of my life to other

nations.



Q:   Would that be after conditions for the East Timorese

people are better?

A:   After I am no longer required by the Holy Father to serve

here. I have long wanted to become a missionary with another

nation. That's if I am given the opportunity and long life by

God.



Q:   Is that because you feel you don't fit in here?

A:   Up to now I have fitted in. But since I was a small boy,

I have wanted to be a priest overseas, in China. I want to

follow in the footsteps of Saint Fransiskus Xaverius, the

Jesuit who went to China. His struggle has greatly impressed

me. It was the story of this saint that made me decide to

become a priest.
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