From: jwindley%asylum.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Jay Windley)
Subject: LDS response to John Meulhausen (part 1 of 2)
Date: 14 Apr 92 04:33:03 MDT
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept

This is a response to the article posted by John Meulhausen on the LDS
temple endowment ceremony and LDS doctrine in general.  Since it
exceeds 900 lines in length, I am posting it in two parts.  This is
the first part.

|ATTN:  Mormons and other interested readers
|-------------------------------------------
|
|First of all let me make clear that I am justified in exposing any Mormon
|"secrets" simply because the Mormon faith claims to be the only road to
|salvation.

I don't think this follows.  I explained the need for secrecy many
days ago, and drew a parallel between the need for Jesus to teach in
parables.  I do not intend to rehash that question, as it seems to
have been largely ignored the first time.  I understand you feel you
are doing the right thing, but you must also understand that many,
including myself, do not agree.

Paul said he saw and heard things that it was not lawful for
him to utter (2 Cor. 12:4).  And Eusebius tells us that the
resurrected Jesus secretly taught Peter, James, and John (_Church
History_ I, 1, 3-4) who passed on these teachings to the other
Christian leaders, but not to all members.  If these men -- whose
authority is not questioned -- were privy to information not intended
for general dissemination, then perhaps one is not quite so justified
as one thinks.

Now there is no ban of secrecy on the entire temple ceremony.  Only
certain parts are obligated to secrecy.  Out of deference to its
sacredness and solemnity Mormons do not discuss it in detail outside
the temple.  Nor do they discuss it in detail with non-Mormons.

However, in a forum such as this where no one's beliefs have any right
to respect or dignity, such propriety cannot be expected.
Consequentially, I will not discuss what if any information that was
presented is, or is not part of the information received under
covenant.  Nor will my replies divulge such information.  Material
deleted from the original post does not necessarily correspond to the
presence or absence of sensitive information.

I find it interesting to note that every single anti-LDS pamphlet or
book I've seen begins by saying something to the effect that good
Christians shouldn't tear down their neighbors and shouldn't argue
with each other.  But each one goes on to rationalize why it's
acceptable to tear down Mormonism.  Usually it's "I'm just doing this
out of love."  If not this, it's "I'm doing this so that everyone will
know the truth about Mormonism."

I hope that the reader will be able to judge from this response to
what degree John (or his source) has accurately represented Mormonism.

Just for the record, I and most other Mormons do not consider
ourselves in need of salvation from our "error," so well-meaning but
imposing folks will be glad to know that they can spare themselves the
trouble of pointing out our "error" to us.

|religion.  Concepts will be presented which are simply not in the book of
|Mormon.

I don't see the relevance here.  LDS do not claim to derive all their
beliefs and practices from the Book of Mormon.  Critics usually quote
a description of the Book of Mormon as containing "the fullness of the
Gospel," and from that claim that all of Mormonism must derive
explicitly from the Book of Mormon.  In fact, Mormons have always
understood the phrase "fullness of the gospel" to mean the testimony
of Jesus Christ as the promised Messiah and as the Savior of the
world.  In this respect, both the Book of Mormon and the Bible contain
the fullness of the gospel.

And this is what Mormons teach.

|Biblical justification (Ephesians 5:6-13):

This is a fine justification of exposing "works of darkness," but it's
also consummate question-begging.  I don't consider the temple
endowment a "work of darkness."  You haven't shown that it's a "work
of darkness."  You simply say that you don't think it matches with
your interpretation of Christianity.

But let's move on.  You seem to think that you are justified, and
readers can agree or disagree as they wish.

Let's start with your source:

|Mormon information:
|   Radio program with Chuck and Dolly Sacket (sp?):
|      Chuck active Mormon for 10 years with 9 consecutive Temple recommends:
|         Veil worker in an LA Temple, worked in four different Temples
|         150+ endowments, 250+ baptisms for the dead, and 1000+ Temple 
|          ordinances "under his belt"

To the non-Mormon: this amounts to about 30 days experience, based on
normal levels of service.  A Mormon active for 10 years in an area
with convenient access to a temple (such as in Los Angeles) would have
rendered about this much service as a temple worker.

Most Mormons who live near a temple attend an endowment session once a
month.  "Veil workers" can both participate and officiate in the
session simultaneously.  They assist the officiators who work
full-time at the temple, usually retired couples.

|      Dolly:
|         Genealogical research and participation in Temple ceremonies

This would be the experience of the average Mormon.

These comments aren't intended to show that these individuals are
unreliable or uninformed, but merely to give the non-Mormon reader a
context in which to place our authorities.  These are not Mormons in
high positions, as might be implied.  They are Mormons of about
average knowledge and experience in temple work.

|      Information is 2 years old

Based on the description of the endowment the information would have
to be at least 3 years old, but nonetheless recent.  The reader should
note that the temple endowment ceremony was modified slightly in 1990
to rephrase parts which were commonly misinterpreted.  I don't intend
to treat these changes exhaustively, but only when they affect the
material John presents.

|Concept of God
|--------------
|
|My best understanding of Mormonism is that they believe God was once as we
|are now, and still has a bodily form which is limited to being in only
|one place at one time.  He lives in a physical reality just like us on a
|planet whose name is close to the pronunciation "kolab" (from radio).

Kolob is the spelling used in Mormonism.  We do not claim it is a
planet, or any other astronomical entity.  We do not teach that God
lives there, or ever lived there.

This derives from commentary by Joseph Smith on an Egyptian
inscription which accompanied the manuscript of the Book of Abraham.
The work "Kolob" is an Egyptian proper name.  The description appears
to be highly symbolic, and Smith never refined or explained his
commentary in usable terms.

Much speculation on this commentary abounded during the early days of
the Church, but no doctrinal pronouncements were ever made on "kolob."

|He does not dwell in the heart of the believer, nor is He with him at all
|times.

LDS believe that God does dwell physically in the heart of the
believer.

|He can only be responsible for the creation of the earth, as His
|existence is limited by time and space, which excludes these from His
|creation. (So how did they come to be?)

It is LDS doctrine (as it was in the Judaism of Moses' time) that
matter is uncreate.  Mormons do not believe in ex nihilo creation.
However, we do not believe that God's existence is limited in time
(though some have speculated this).  We believe he is limited in space
only in that he has a physical representation.  We believe his
influence is unbounded.  There is no basis in LDS theology for a claim
that God created only this earth, in fact there are many allusions to
the contrary.

|He has a wife which he has kept
|hidden from us, who once was his wife in a "lone and dreary world" such as
|our own.

There is no LDS doctrine regarding God having existed in a "lone and
dreary world," or of being sinful, or of having been imperfect, as is
usually claimed in conjunction with statements of this sort.

|He rose to His position by being a good believer on the world
|where He came from under His "God".

This is not LDS doctrine.

Most of the preceding has been speculated at one time or another by
Mormons of varying authority.  The only remotely doctrinal statement
is that "as man now is, God once was; as God now is, man may become,"
which has a wide variety of possible connotations and explanations
(many of which have been explored, but none shown to be doctrinal).
The phrase itself is considered doctrinal only because no LDS
president has seen fit to refute it.  By the same token, none have
seen fit to interpret it, either.

|This presents the problem of original
|creator.

Which is why most speculations fall apart.  LDS do not claim that
there is a "meta-God" or such an origin to creation.

|Keep in mind that this issue could have
|been ignored by Joseph Smith.

On the contrary, this question has intrigued many LDS prophets
including Joseph Smith.  The answer is always been that we will be
told about events and doctrines pertaining to our world only.
Speculation about other worlds, other gods, and so forth has little or
no canon from which to extrapolate.

Basically, the LDS attitude on these issues is: They're fun to
speculate about, but we probably won't get an answer in this lifetime,
so don't take any of the speculations seriously.

|Because of His nature he does not have a
|personal relationship with each of us.

On the contrary, we believe that we existed as individual spirits
before the earth was created.  As such, God knew each of us personally
and individually.  Since we believe part of the purpose of this life
is to make decisions without knowing God (i.e., as opposed to having
faith in him), it is required that our knowledge of God be removed
from our minds in mortality.

God still has personal knowledge of each of us.  As part of our
sojourn on earth, one should try to build a relationship with God
again.  We are promised that knowledge of our former relationship with
God will be restored after death.

Mormons view God as a very personal, approachable being as opposed to
some mainstream Christians.  Our appellation "Heavenly Father" is an
indication of how we view him -- as a kind, fatherly being with
immeasurable love for each of us.

The causality represented in your statement (i.e., what aspect of the
LDS concept of God precludes his having a meaningful personal
relationship with each of his children) is one I've never had
satisfactorily explained to me.  The syllogism is usually presented
along these lines: "The Mormon God is tangible (or some other
allegedly limiting quality), therefore cannot be omnipotent (or some
other divine attribute)."  This leaves out the important premise "That
which is tangible cannot be omnipotent."

I don't see why this should be.  It isn't self-evident.  It is
contrary to the implications of the patristic writer who says, in
effect, there's nothing wrong with matter.  Further, when I ask people
to explain it to me, the only verbal answer I've received is "It's
just that way."  Usually I just get a shrug.

So I see nothing in the LDS nature of God which denies the possibility
of his having a personal relationship with each of his children.

|The Christian God is everywhere

Mormons disagree here.  God is not physically omnipresent (due to his
nature -- on of the few cases for which the above syllogism holds in
LDS theology), but his influence extends everywhere.  Hence, in this
way he is omnipresent, but certainly not in the sense that is believed
by mainstream Christianity.

I would normally present some supporting scriptural and historical
evidence to support the LDS position, but the discussion of the past
few days has taken large chunks out of my time.  I seriously doubt I
will be able to do so while the discussion is current.  Such has been
done before.

|and everywhen

Not only do we believe God is everywhen, but that man also is everywhen.

|and knows all that
|ever was, is, or will be.

Mormons believe this.

|In fact He always was and always will be.

Mormons believe this.  There is some speculation about the possible
states of being of God through time, but none with any sort of
doctrinal support.

|His creation is our reality, complete with space, time, and all that we
|know or imagine.

No LDS doctrine limits creation, except possibly in the case of time,
and definitely in the case of matter.

In that our secular understanding shows that time is very much a
perceptual phenomenon, there may be some justification for a statement
that God exists outside of time, but again this is MY speculation.

The belief in ex nihilo creation did not arise until well after
Christ.  The Jews, based on the OT creation account, did not believe
in ex nihilo creation.

We believe that God organized prime material into the elements, and
into the higher forms of planets, stars, and finally biology.  This is
consistent with the Hebrew usage in Genesis.

|He is a loving God who desires a personal relationship with
|each person

Mormons believe this.

|he has created in His image (and in image only).

"Tzelem" is best translated as "shadow," or "form," or "shape."  Most
Bibles leave it as "image," bringing with it all the incorrect
metaphysical connotations of the English word, which are not implied
by the Hebrew.

Mormons believe that man was created in the image of God, in a literal
sense, as the Hebrew suggests.

|The most striking thing about this aspect of Mormonism is that God is made
|in man's image, while in Christianity man is made in God's image.

We don't claim to have made God any more that any mainstream Christian
can so claim.  We attempt to describe God insofar as He has been
revealed.  Very well, so does traditional Christianity.  Is this
"making" God?  To show that we are in His image is no more than
traditional Christianity has claimed.  We just believe that
relationship is literal to some degree.

|Man
|becomes God to save himself

It is LDS doctrine that man cannot save himself.  Man is saved through
the atonement of Christ.

|Concept of Jesus
|----------------
|
|I am still confused as to who Jesus is in the Mormon faith.

Jesus is the "chief cornerstone" in the foundation of the LDS church.
We believe he is our personal Savior.  Joseph Smith said that the
central doctrine of the Mormon faith was the atoning sacrifice of
Jesus Christ.  We believe he actively guides the LDS church today.

|A couple of
|things are certain though: Jehovah (same person as Jesus?) was with God
|during the creation, and he is definitely not the same person as God.

We believe that YHWH, the "God of the Old Testament," was in fact
Jesus.  We believe that he had all the attributes and qualities of
Godhood before coming to earth.  We believe that he is not the same
person as the Father, nor that they share a divine substance in any
way.  As such, Mormons do not consider themselves trinitarians.

|He is not responsible for our salvation.

Absolutely contrary to LDS teachings.  In LDS doctrine, Jesus Christ
is the only road to salvation.  Anyone who has had any real experience
with LDS teachings or scripture knows this.  All LDS scripture bears
this out in explicit fact, and it is stated specifically in the
endowment ceremony.

|Concept of the Holy Spirit
|--------------------------
|
|The "Holy Ghost" is something that the Mormon receives in the Temple

Not true.  The Holy Ghost may witness to anyone at any time.
Immediately after baptism, a Mormon is confirmed a member of the LDS
church and receives the gift of the Holy Spirit.  This is no more than
the privilege of having the Holy Spirit with us constantly.

|how he/it fits in with the rest of Mormonism is unclear to me.

Mormons believe in the gifts of the Spirit, as described in the New
Testament.  We believe that the Holy Spirit gives personal guidance
and revelation.  The presence of the Holy Spirit is a kind of
ratification of ordinances such as baptism.

|The Holy Spirit is the third way in which God reveals himself to man
|(Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).

In LDS theology, the Holy Spirit is the third member of the Godhead,
composed of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  We believe that each person
of the Godhead is numerically distinct from the others.  We believe
that each is God in the sense that each has attributes and powers of God.

This often leads to the charge that Mormons are polytheistic.
Inasmuch as polytheism implies the worship of more than god and brings
up images of the contentious gods of Greek and Roman religions, this
is incorrect.  Mormons worship God the Father and no one else.  We
believe that God, his Son, and the Holy Spirit have the same purpose,
goals, and will.  In this sense the Godhead is one.  Mormons do not
consider the unity of the Godhead to be a physical one.

Much of this is based on revelation given specifically to Mormon
prophets, though biblical support for the LDS position does exist.  It
is beyond the scope of the present response to discuss them in detail,
but as such is a recurring topic in this newsgroup, I imagine those
who haven't heard it will do so soon.

|He is that aspect of God which is always
|with us and leading us in our daily walk.

This is essentially what Mormons also believe.

|Concept of Heaven
|-----------------
|
|There are different levels of heaven in Mormonism.

In the aforementioned passage from 2 Corinthians, Paul describes
having been taken up to the "third heaven."  Jesus describes his
father's house as having "many mansions," but of course this does not
necessarily imply a difference in the desirability of the "mansions."
In his discussion of resurrected bodies, Paul also refers to varying
degrees of glory each body will receive (1 Cor. 15).

In Hebrew, the word for heaven is a dual, "shammayim," and never
appears in the singular.

While certainly a product of latter-day revelation, the concept of
heaven does have some biblical support.

|Someone who rejects
|Mormonism goes to "spirit jail"

The LDS description of the afterlife is not describable in terms of
the Protestant view.

After death there is a brief judgement which assigns the soul of the
deceased to one of two worlds, one called "spirit prison," and the
other called "paradise."  The criteria for this judgement are not
known, so a question like "Where would [insert name here] go?" are not
answerable in terms of LDS doctrine.  We understand that one's
acceptance or rejection of Christ (not of Mormonism) may be grounds
for such a judgement.  People in paradise may migrate to spirit prison
(which, it is speculated, are actually the same world; the difference
is solely in the perception of it, hence "hell" and "heaven" may have
limited application) and minister to them.

We believe Christ did precisely this between his death and
resurrection.  (cf. 1 Pet. 3).

At the final judgement, we will be judged on our works and assigned to
one of three degrees of glory, or kingdoms, the highest of which is
that in which God dwells.  This judgement is eternal in its scope.

|and only Mormons get to where God is
|(wherever that is).

Yes, but everyone will have had the chance to decide whether or not to
be Mormon.  Those who enter the highest degree of glory will be in the
presence of God.  However, those in higher degrees of glory can pass
to the lower ones.  Those residing in the lower degrees are not
isolated from God.

|In order to get in one must repeat an incantation
|learned in their endowment (see below).

Many things are required for entrance into this highest degree of
glory, including faith in Jesus as the Redeemer and the living of a
Christian life of love and service.

|The Christian Heaven is only described as a place where there will be no
|more worldy cares and we will be shown all the mysteries of God's design.

This is an accurate description of various of the degrees of glory.

|No further description would be possible as it is not even of our reality
|and therefore unimaginable.

We do not claim the celestial glories are imaginable.  But it is an
interesting position to claim that the LDS concept of heaven is at
odds with something which cannot be described.

This ends the first part of my response.
--------------------------------+---------------------------------------
Jay Windley                     | jwindley@asylum.utah.edu
Department of Computer Science  +---------------------------------------
Univ. of Utah, Salt Lake City   | "I have detailed files."  -- T2
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc