From: trajan@cwis.unomaha.edu (Stephen McIntyre)
Subject: Re: Why do people give Mormons a hard time? (long)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 18:54:10 GMT

bwebster@pages.com  writes:

> Hmm...damning with faint praise, eh?  ;-)  Actually, LDS theology is (IMHO)   
> far more rational than the numerous variations promulgated under the banner  
> of "Christianity" during the last 1600 years or so, but few outsiders ever   
> get close enough to see that. But that's just IMHO; your mileage may vary.

Personally, I would like to think deism, which has existed since 
     (I believe) the Eighteenth Century, is far more rational (its
     foundations are built upon rationality and the intellectual
     belief in God.)  Also, I tend to think your belief in the
     label "far more rational" as it applies to Mormonism is 
     tainted with bias, as I do of other beliefs of other "religious"
     people (take, for example, the Muslim belief that Arabic is
     the most "perfect" language on the face of the earth.)

> While I do not come from an Latter-day Saint family (I joined the LDS Church
> on my own at age 14), I was raised in a home that taught tolerance and   
> respect for others' beliefs. That education continued after my conversion, 
> and came both from the LDS Church itself and from my parents (who, like the 
> rest of my family, have remained non-LDS). I have always been slow to 
> criticize and judge the beliefs of others, especially when it comes to   
> religious matters, because those ultimately are the most profound and
> personal issues we face and have to deal with.

Except for the beliefs of secular humanists, right?

> Given all that, I remain puzzled--as I have been for the 25 years that I have
> encountered it--by the willful propagation of misinformation, paranoia,  
> outright lies about and (at times) hatred towards the LDS Church by members,  
> leaders, and ministers of other Christian denominations.
> Worse yet, many of these same people stubbornly cling to such lies and  
> half-truths even when presented with significant evidence to the contrary.

I would like to know what lies you speak of.  I mean, is it a lie
     that the Mormons at one time practiced polygamy?  Is it a lie
     that under the divine forgiveness of the "Doctrine of Blood 
     Atonement," the Mormons perhaps initiated the Mountain Meadows
     Massacre (an event which resulted in the death of over a 
     hundred emigrants, who by no means deserved to be slaughtered
     like lambs before a sacrifice.  By the way, the bigger tragedy
     here is not the Massacre itself-- though big enough as it is--
     but rather it is the insistence of the Church to suppress any
     evidence that might point the finger of blame in the Church's
     direction.  It's too bad people like myself [gentiles and/or
     apostates] cannot get at the files and documents found in 
     the vaunted vaults located 20 miles southwest of Salt Lake
     City, Utah, to find out what really happened.)?  Is it a lie
     to state that Joseph Smith sometimes made prophesies (or
     revelations) which later turned out to be false?  Here's an 
     excerpt from a book I found one time that might back me up
     on this:
     
          The inhabitants of the moon are more of a uniform size
          than the inhabitants of the earth, being about six feet
          in height.  They dress very much like the Quaker style
          and are quite general in style, or the fashion of 
          dress.  They live to be very old: coming generally near
          a thousand years. (Journal of Oliver B. Huntington,
          vol. 2, p 166)
          
     And given that in the Doctrine and Covenants, Section 21: 4-5,
     you find
     
          Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto
          all his words and commandments which he shall give unto
          you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before
          me;  For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own
          mouth, in all patience and faith...
          
     Now, since this particular doctrine applied to Joseph Smith
     (who must be accepted as a true prophet of the Lord), I ask:
     was God drunk when He gave this revelation to Mr. Smith, or
     perhaps He purposefully gave "misinformation" to the prophet
     believing we would never reach the moon, or was it that Mr.
     Smith was (dare I say it?) a fraud?  Never mind; most
     Mormons I put this question to give me a , "Well, what Mr.
     Smith was really doing was revealing the fact that there is 
     life on other planets," or some other explanation that somehow
     denies what was said or reinterprets what was said.
     
Lastly, is it a lie to say that the Mormon Church denied the 
     priesthood to blacks until the late seventies?  Is it a lie
     say or even to imply that they were denied access because
     of Church racism?  Yes?  Most of the time, when I'm told
     why blacks were denied priesthood, I am told that it is 
     because blacks are "Canaanite" that they were denied.  
     After some research, I found what they had told me was wrong:
     the Canaanites were white.  Then I was told it was because
     Ham was cursed (which he wasn't) and because he slept with
     a woman named Egyptus (not found in the Bible but I do 
     believe found in the Pearl of Great Price), who was the
     mother of the black races, the blacks were cursed by being
     somehow related to the Canaanites.  Or maybe it was Canaan
     who slept with Egyptus.  Anyway, I find it difficult to
     believe (1) there was any woman named Egyptus and (2) that 
     if there were such a woman, God surely would have revealed
     such in the Bible (wouldn't want any cursed breeds running
     around and mating with the blessed breeds.)  However, I do
     believe in the racism held by the Church, as revealed in 
     some doctrine written by an Apostle of the Church:
     
          Negroes in this life are denied the priesthood; under
          no circumstances can they hold this delegation of
          authority from the Almighty.  The gospel message of
          salvation is not carried affirmatively to them...
          Negroes are not equal with other races where the 
          receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned...
          (_Mormon Doctrine_, 1958, p 447)
          
     What happened to the Mormon Doctrine that the sins of the 
     father are not borne by the sons or daughters?  Or is that
     just a sham too?
     
So tell us, please, what are these lies you speak of that are 
     put out by gentiles and non-believers?

> Now, to insist in the face of all this that the "true" beliefs and doctrines  
> of the LDS Church are "hidden", or that the majority (or even any significant
> portion) of its 8+ million members are somehow duped, confused, misled or  
> brainwashed--especially given the high average level of education among LDS  
> Church members, and the disproportionate percentage of active, believing  
> Mormons in scientific, technological, engineering, business and educational  
> fields--is ludicrous. To persist in such an attitude in the face of evidence  
> to the contrary is willful disbelief and deliberate ignorance of the worst 
> sort.

The Mormons are amongst the most educated of any particular 
     group that I have ever known.  On the other hand, I have
     found more than one former LDS member who has dropped the
     faith because of its ludicrousness-- my father is a prime
     example (raised as a Mormon, as were his brothers, all of
     them have dropped the faith.  My father became an atheist.)
     Just because one's faith has a large number of educated 
     persons holding to it doesn't imply that same faith isn't
     unfounded or false.

> So why does it happen at all? The only answer I can come up with is fear:  
> fear of that which is not understood, fear of that which is different, and   
> fear of that which is threatening (which, it would appear, the modest but  
> steady growth of the LDS Church is to the leaders and members of many  
> Christian congregations). But what are such people afraid of? That's what I   
> don't understand. To such I would recommend the advice of Gamaliel to the
> Sanhedrim about the nascent Christian church (Acts 5:33-39).

Perhaps it is fear; on the other hand, it may be that people have a
     certain distaste for religions whose doctrines conflict with
     one's own beliefs (Section 132 of the Doctrine and Covenants:
     "Thus we see that celestial marriage is the crowning Gospel 
     ordinance.  If men and women have obeyed this holy ordinance
     and all the other principles of the Gospel, following the
     resurrection and the great judgement day, then they shall be
     Gods."  Imagine how people of other Christian beliefs take
     this doctrine when they believe their God to be the one
     and only God.  Or of the implication that people will marry
     when they arrive in heaven or be married and stay that way
     before then [take the parable of the wife and the seven
     brothers, which the LDS seem to disregard].)

> I have no problems with those who disagree with LDS beliefs or practices and  
> who choose to publish or preach those disagreements, so long as their  
> understanding, representations and portrayals of such are accurate and  
> relevant. But I have little patience or respect for those who--having never  
> read (much less studied) the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and 
> Pearl of Great Price, ... 
>              ...having never even browsed through a few of the standard LDS  
> missionary pamphlets--attempt to tell me or others what the LDS Church, its  
> leaders and its members actually practice, preach and believe. To ignore this
> vast assortment of primary sources in favor of anti-Mormon literature--whose  
> provenance and intent is, by nature, questionable at best and malicious at  
> worst--does not reflect well on one's ethics, judgment or intellectual
> honesty.

What if the anti-Mormon literature comes from former Mormons; do
     you have a problem then?  Also, what is wrong with anti-
     Mormon literature?  It's not as if other groups haven't taken
     a bad rap from other faiths (the Roman Catholics, atheists,
     Jehovah Witnesses, etc.)  Sheesh, get some backbone and learn
     to take criticism.

> The deliberate spreading--or acceptance--of hate, prejudice and misinforma-
> tion about *any* religion or society is antithetical to the example the   
> Savior set during His ministry here on earth and the path He expects all of 
> us who profess to bear His name to tread.  Religious tolerance is a 
> fundamental principle of the LDS Church; our 11th Article of Faith says, 
> "We claim the privilege of worshipping Almighty God according to the dictates
> of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them
> worship how, where or what they may." There is good counsel there for
> others: those who are so intent on proving the Mormons not to be Christians
> should perhaps spend less time worrying about that and more time worrying
> about their own "true" Christianity.   

I would agree with you about the deliberate spreading of 
     misinformation about any religion; it's not fair nor is it
     right.  Secondly, your advice to others to quit trying
     to prove Mormonism as wrong (or as "unChristian"):  when 
     the Mormons stop trying to convert others to their beliefs,
     I'll agree with you.  Until then, your advice holds no
     water.

> ..bruce..
> 
> Bruce F. Webster
> Chief Technical Officer, Pages Software Inc.
> Contributing Editor, Macworld, NeXTWORLD
> bwebster@pages.com

Lastly, before I go, I would like to say I am not anti-Mormon in
     the least; some of my good friends are Mormon, and we like
     to discuss issues all of the time.  But Bruce seemed to have
     wanted an explanation (or a response), and I have given the
     best I can for now.  If anybody would like to respond to
     what I have said here, please either e-mail or post on
     the net; however, I will not be back until January 4th to 
     respond to anything (school's out for X-mas.)
     
To Bruce: Sorry, I would have responded in the mail, but I couldn't
     get through to your address-- my mail kept coming back.
     
SRM
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