From: eshin@ddsw1.mcs.com (Eshin-Fun)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,alt.magick
Subject: Re: Santeria
Date: 7 Nov 92 15:16:29 GMT
Organization: ddsw1.MCS.COM Contributor, Chicago IL
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3

>>altheimm@nextnet.csus.edu (Murray Altheim) writes:

(stuff deleted for the sake of brevety)

: >How old is this twirp?? How long has he studied the subject. Has he
: >travelled to Haiti, Cuba Brazil or Lagos?? Does he read???
: >
: >There seems to be, in some occult circles, a preoccupation in labaling
: >everything "white" or "black" when really most of these moralists haven't
: >got the slightest idea what they are talking about!
: 
: [long flame excised...]
: 
: >BRAVO!!!!!! Mr. Quellas, I applaud you for your succint observations and
: >conclusions!
: >
: >Eshin-Fun

Now to the point:

>>: Christ, guys, mellow out. Get a life. You both sound like net hacks with a
: need to find SOMETHING to rant about. If you'll note I was only adding a  
: comment to a thread, a comment I prefaced quite plainly with the fact that
: it was only one opinion from one person in a Voudoun group, who happens to
: have spent part of his childhood in Haiti, and is currently part of an 
: active, legitimate Voudoun group here in California. He is in his mid-forties
: and has been involved in Voudoun for at least ten to fifteen years.<<

It's amazing that when the "shoe is on the other foot" then commentaries are
not flames, nor slurrs or anything that could be taken out of context. But
let someone respond and suddenly one has to "mellow out" "cool off" and a
series of other adjectives that admonish any defense.

Many Cubans have been born with Santeria as a family religion, and even
initiated and yet at their forties and fiftees knew nothing of the religion.
Just mere heresay does not validate a person's credebility.

Your post was not written as a question but rather as a statement which
changes the opinion that you've transmitted.
If my response shakes the very foundations of your belief system of
reporting then I suggesst you re-evaluate the way you came accross. I
suppose this you did by your apparent recalcitrent apology. Accepted!

But, >you mellow out<, if you need something to rant about then avoid using
subjects that you nothing of. Let alone take an isolated opinion as a point
that you dismiss by suggesting a library to substantiate it or disprove it.

Unfortunately, since "black conciousness" has become a "fad" suddenly groups
crop up like weeds and dissiminate a lot of erroneous information that the
unfamiliar many times accepts as truths when in fact they are not.

The statement that Santeria is "black" is an outrage to anyone who knows a
smidgen of Haitian history. And I am surprised that someone who alleged is
so into this can make such a sweeping commentery.
I also know people who are actively into the Haiting form of African
religion and have even been initiated to it. They are the first that would
contest these statements. That you should report it is alright, that you
should state a defense to our reaction in the manner which you came accross
is another.
  
: 
: I'm sorry this one man's opinion has threatened the very foundations of
: your belief system, but as I said, it is just his opinion. I made no claim
: to its validity, nor to my belief in his beliefs. Nor yours. Nor anybody
: else's. I suppose the two outraged replies so far have served my unintended
: purpose of bringing forth a discussion of some of the aspects of Voudoun/
: Santeria, a subject I readily admit I know little about.<<

This sarcastic apology betrays a bruised ego. Don't flatter yourself that it
has shaken anything remotely suggesting the "very foundations of our belief
system". By the obvious impact our response has had in you, suggested by
your reply it is >you< that now has second thoughts. If indeed you are
interested in bringing forth a discusion of some of the aspects of
Voodoun/Santeria then though you may make a quote, ask "questions" or at
least phrase it as one.

I have been writing a number of posts on Santeria/Lukumi and have made
references on Voodoun for sometime now. None of which you reference.
What seems to be the outrage is the usual attitude that everything is
"white" or "black" that Santeria is merely an aspect of Voodoun.

Voodoun is, as I have pointed out, a religious contrivance of the New World,
not Africa. And in fact, it is created by the Haitian. In Voodoun there are
the Rada and Petro rites the latter which is full of "black" oriented magick
that is so fearful to your friend.
Voodoun is suggested by scholars was brought into western africa later after
its conception was initiated in Haiti by the Arada tribe.

That a discussion could be initiated, there is no problem. But you cannot
start a discussion for example about magick by saying that it is "evil" and
godless hocus pocus" because everyone that will arouse annoyance of those
people that may view it with a different color.
: 
: Excuse ME.
: 
: Murray the Krispy-Krusted
: 
..When you apologize, try not to grit your teeth. It is obvious by your
krispy-krusted Excuse ME.

On the net there are no visual or audible apperances so words will have to
do. Statements are never taken personally, or should never be so taken, as
the perties involved, dissatisfied, could easily just skip your thread or
turn off their computer. But if any time is taken by anyone to answer
publicly a statement then they have to understand that it will equally be
answered according to the manner that it was written whether you like it or
not.
If your ego fears apparent contradiction then write e-mail where it is kept
confidential and your pride will not be bruised. But pleeease, avoid the
hysterium of calling any kind of intense rebuttal a "Flame".

It has become boring and tiresome that people with the lack of intelligent
command of a language usually resort in their accustaion of that which
rebuttals their statements as a Flame.

The above is neither intended nor IS a "flame". It is just a clarification
of how your statements come accross to me. I cannot speak for anyone else.
If you will note, my commentary to your original post, sarcastic as it may
have been at times was directed more to the credibility of your "friend's"
statement than it was intended to  admonish you. It was an observation of
decorum that I questioned your motivations which you have answered above.

But don't twist my words and confuse the issue by stereotyping my answers or
questions as a threat of what I know that you don't.

Eshin-Fun


: Murray M. Altheim      "Ils ont l'orteil de Bouc, & d'un Chevreil l'oreille,
: Instructional Consultant    La corne d'un Chamois, & la face vermeille
: CSU, Sacramento          Comme un rouge Croissant: & dancent toute nuict
: altheimm@csus.edu       Dedans un carrefour, ou pres d'une eau qui bruict."