HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: pfarrell@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (Pat Farrell)
Subject: Is there an EFF position on the Assault Key balloons?
Followup-To: comp.org.eff.talk
Keywords: balloon, public key registration
Organization: George Mason University, Fairfax, Virginia, USA 
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 00:19:59 GMT


To: Official EFF spokensperson

Subject: various proposals to regulate private encryption
	 technology

Is there an official EFF position on the regulation of private
use of encryption technology? If not, is there one actively
being developed?

The recent posts suggesting that this is not a purely academic
excercise in theology are chilling. It was fun when it didn't
count. If it is real, then a political response must be
prepared and executed. Terry Ritter's hypothetical question
concerning explaining all this technobabble to a judge, jury,
or congressman, is on target. We can not develop a position
after the bills are in commitee on the Hill.

To paraphrase the TV ads: If not now, when? If not the EFF,
who?

followups directed out of sci.crypt. This is a political
issue...

Pat

Pat Farrell,      40+ year old Grad Student              pfarrell@cs.gmu.edu
Department of Computer Science, George Mason University, Fairfax, VA
PGP Public key available via finger           #include standard.disclaimer
From: peter@ferranti.com (peter da silva)
Subject: Re: RSA Patent Abuse
Organization: Xenix Support, FICC
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 01:54:51 GMT

In article <1992Nov14.062548.7038@u.washington.edu> tzs@carson.u.washington.edu (Tim Smith) writes:
> Historical question: when did interest in public key cryptography become
> widespread among computer users?  I recall that there was a public key
> email system from AT&T on some early Unix release (32V, I think).

As I recall, secretmail was a private-key system. I'll check in my 2BSD
manual when I get home.

> Most people seemed to play with it a bit, and then go to regular email for
> pretty much everything.

Yep, it was pretty annoying to use, as well as being no more secure than
ordinary mail since your key was only protected by the file system security
and your email was already protected that well.

> What made people *want* public key cryptography?

Wide area networks.
-- 
Peter da Silva / 77487-5012 USA / +1 713 274 5180
true(<<VV$@\\$'&O 9$O%'$LT$&$"V6"$&$<4$?'&$ #I&&?$=$<<@)24 24 scale 3 21 moveto
{dup 36 eq{pop not}{dup 7 and 4 sub exch 56 and 8 div 4 sub 2 index{rlineto}{
rmoveto}ifelse}ifelse}forall stroke pop showpage % Har du kramat din varg idag?
From: barnhart@ddsw1.mcs.com (Mr. Aaron Barnhart)
Subject: Re: Query: Can Universities limit network access &/or 'spy` on u
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 07:32:31 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Evanston, Illinois, U.S.A.

kadie@cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie) wrote:
:cmeadows@nyx.cs.du.edu (Chris Meadows) writes:
:
:>On a similar topic, I think that my university is the most anal-
:>retentive regarding its computers of any university on the planet.
:[...]
:
:I think a university should strive to offer the best information
:resources and forums to the whole university community. This should
:include good libraries, a vigorous student press, and good computer
:and network facilities.
:

Speaking of the student press: when we couldn't get a fair shake
from the daily in its news and editorial sections, we (and students
like us at campuses across America) founded alternative newspapers
throughout the 1980s.  Was costly, but in many cases our press was
able for a time to carve out a niche, find readers and advertisers,
and contribute overall to campus debate.  In some cases the presence
of alternative press made the mainstream press more accountable and
resulted in actions to balance out the mainstream.

It would be nice to see similar ventures succeed in towns where the
university is miserly about distributing computing services.  A Unix
board with full news and mail offering student subscriptions, maybe?
Too costly to startup?  Too much for students to manage without the
official support and funding of the university?   Hmmmmm.  Don't
underestimate the power of pissed off students!

Aaron
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,alt.privacy
From: gtoal@ibmpcug.co.uk (Graham Toal)
Subject: Re: this week's illegal wiretap
Organization: The IBM PC User Group, UK.
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 22:21:49 GMT

In article <1992Nov15.144846.23@cobra.dra.com> sean@cobra.dra.com writes:
>In article <BxrG89.KI2@ibmpcug.co.uk>, gtoal@ibmpcug.co.uk (Graham Toal) writes:
>> In article <1992Nov14.184411.21@cobra.dra.com> sean@cobra.dra.com writes:
>>>If you are using a phone in a hotel, the hotel owner can't tap the phone
>>>in your room, even though the phone is their property.
>> 
>> Nevertheless they do.  Hotels routinely monitor all calls, and are
>> tacitly encouraged to do so by the local police, especially in
>> districts that are centres of drug activity.  I have this first hand
>> from someone who actually did the monitoring himself in a Howard Johnson
>> motel.
>
>What do you mean by monitoring?  If you mean do they keep SMDR logs (the
>digits dialed on the phone), you are correct.  And some hotels do cooperate
>with police in pointing out calls dialled to certain numbers.  This falls

No, I mean that a senior employee of a Howard Johnsons motel told me that
their exchange has 'a way of monitoring all calls at once' - I presume
he meant that they could overhear all calls at once then cycle through them
to pick the one they found interesting, or some such - I didn't push
him on details because I wanted to win his confidence and hear more of
what he had to say - and he personally listened to calls in his hotel.
He said he and a couple of the night staff listened to calls *regularly*,
particularly when they were bored or idle at night - and that they
reported possible drug activity to the local police.  The police didn't
explicitly *ask* them to tap phones, but they knew it went on and
didn't discourage it, and never caused any trouble (naturally) when
the hotel flks reported suspicions to them.  It's an official blind
eye being turned.  I can only speak for the one establishment that this
guy told me about, but he said he was sure it went on everywhere.

btw, the guy was the head of the actual shop-floor workers - one step
below management.  I'm not suggesting this is official H J policy -
I'm sure these things are set up between individual employees and the
local police.

G
--
From: ns111310@longs.lance.colostate.edu
Subject: wanted-- IPaddresses of outbound modem servers
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 03:30:37 GMT
Reply-To: ns111310@longs.lance.colostate.edu
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO  80523

I am trying to compile a list of specific area codes that have 
a outgoing modem-server connected to them.  I want to do this for 
the obvoius reason:  making low-cost (well, free, actually) calls 
to long-distance sites by telnetting to a server, connecting to a modem,
and dialing a local number, and routing the strea back to my site.

This is legal, and works... I am trying to compile a list of these sites,
so that they can be used. 

If you know of one (probably at your local university), please send me
a piece of mail that says the site name, IP address, and the area-codes
accessable from that site (i.e. the codes that are not LD from there)

thanks, and I'll post a summary of the responeses in a bit.

-nate sammons
 ns111310@longs.lance.colostate.edu
From: Zhahai.Stewart@f93.n104.z1.fidonet.org (Zhahai Stewart)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: A Silver Bullet to Limit Crypto?
Date: 17 Nov 92 23:01:30 GMT
Article-I.D.: puddle.20498.2B09F9FC
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/93 - Adelante, Boulder CO


 > I don't understand why people are proposing registration of encryption 
 > keys.

 Dorothy Denning writes:

 d> So far as I know, the only people who have floated the idea are Ron 
 d> Rivest, Silvio Micali, and myself.  

 Then the following may interest you, from last May, as published in
 Newsbytes (Story by Barbara E. McMullen, 5/15/92, Newsbytes).  You may
 want to add at least one more name to the list, this time an official.

 Donald Delaney, New York State Police senior investigator spoke (along 
 with EFF's Mike Godwin) to the New York Amateur Computer Club's May 1992
 meeting: 

 "During the question and answer period, Delaney suggested that a method
 of resolving the encryption debate would be for third parties, such as 
 banks and insurance companies, to maintain the personal encryption key 
 for those using encryption.  A law enforcement official would then have 
 to obtain a judge's ruling to examine or "tap" the key for future use to 
 decipher the contents of the file or message."

 (Godwin disagreed; discussion ensued.  Perhaps he could tell us more).

 So yes, registration of encryption keys has been suggested (at least 6
 months ago) by a law enforcement official.  Note that this account:

  (1) suggests private key depositories rather than a gov't agency
  (2) does not differentiate between public and single key systems
  (3) does not neccessarily limit itself to public data networks

 I don't know if this suggestion predates or postdates your own; it may
 be independent in any case, given the differences.  I would be interested
 in whether you think this represents an earlier proposal for key 
 registration to resolve the conflicting goals, the spread of your
 proposals into law enforcement, or independent but later thought.
 Delaney is fairly active, so I imagine this was not the only forum 
 at which he was presenting his ideas back then.  Delaney's speciality
 seems to be computer crime, and catching "hackers".  He does not seem
 to be rabid, but he seems to represent the law enforcement viewpoint
 more than the civil liberties side, not surprisingly.
    ~z~


--  
uucp: uunet!m2xenix!puddle!104!93!Zhahai.Stewart
Internet: Zhahai.Stewart@f93.n104.z1.fidonet.org
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
From: barnhart@ddsw1.mcs.com (Mr. Aaron Barnhart)
Subject: Re: right to have .plan
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 03:55:45 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Evanston, Illinois, U.S.A.

ygoland@edison.seas.ucla.edu (The Jester) wrote:
:A question was raised regarding the inclusion of biblical material
:in a .plan. It was generally agreeded that the person who found this
:offense should go "whistle up a rope". 
:
:But I would propose another scenerio for examination:A professor at
:a major university teachers a class where all of the students have
:class accounts and hence access to finger. He tells those students
:the information regarding the timing of tests and hints on homework
:are available at all times just by fingering him (i.e. he put the
:info in his plan file). However the professor also included in his
:.plan file biblical and other quotes. Should he have to take them
:out? She he be forced to use another means to inform the students of
:the pertinant information?
:
:The issue is the difference between when you CHOOSE to read a .plan
:and when you HAVE to read a .plan.
:
:In the real world many of my professors give their office hours and
:such through their .plan. Its convienent.
:


Wonderfully puzzling theoretical question we have here, but could
we just please put aside the formal logic for a while?

Look, obviously there are a number of ways to buffalo people into
reading your advertisement.  Those of you with Prodigy accounts know
this all too well.  But what the original poster was presenting was
a situation in which she earnestly wished to make a faith statement
in a prominent place.  I personally would spare people the billboards
and go work anonymously in soup kitchens, that's how *I* interpret
Scripture.  Never mind.  She is making the faith statement on her
.plan and therefore hoping to snare the occasional look.  Along comes
a spider who sat down beside her and hissed, "Take this off your .plan
or I'll make a stink about it."

Regardless of what problems you may have with her broadcasting her
faith statements in public, the woman is at least practicing the
golden rule -- broadcast your atheistic statments my way and maybe
we can discuss our differences -- whereas her tormentor is not.

I'm sorry if this seems to shut the door on further attempts to stretch
the hypothetical possibilities inspired by this subject, but formal
logical deduction is not a very good response to this eminently practical
situation.

Aaron

Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
From: strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight)
Subject: Re: Best Case Scenario
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1992 18:47:45 GMT


I find messages like Zhahai Stewart's latest, in which he tries to make a
best case proposal for key registration wrong-headed. Though I have no
wish to infringe on his right to free speech, whatever became of
morality or ethics?

Government eavesdropping on private citizens without Constitutional
probable cause is wrong. Period. Any presumption that a private
citizen MIGHT be a crook someday, and therefore we better get his key
in case he becomes one, is WRONG. Period. It is a thinly disguised
form of a presumption of guilt without probable cause.

In a moral society we don't do things that are wrong. We don't sort of
do them. We don't do them with protections.

Once we decide that assassination of foreign leaders is wrong, we don't
have discussions of ways to do that with safeguards. We simply don't
do that.

Thus any discussion of "friendly" ways to get people's keys registered
is, in my view, a pernicious opening of the door to fascism. We should
stop it, instead of trying to make it "nice."


-- 
David Sternlight
(pgp 2.0 and ripem public keys available on request)

Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
From: jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala)
Subject: October senteces for a virus (was Re: [UPI] "FBI probes ..")
Reply-To: jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 00:10:59 GMT

In article <1992Nov21.184453.4548@eff.org>, kadie@eff (Carl M. Kadie) writes:
(an article via clarinet)
>	ITHACA, N.Y. (UPI) -- The FBI is investigating whether a Cornell

>	In October, sophomores Xxxxxx Xxxxxxxx and Xxx Xxxxxxx were
>sentenced to community service for creating a computer virus that
>wreaked havoc on software as far away as Japan.

(I dropped the names)

More info on this?  Apparently this was also in Cornell.

>	Cornell is located in Ithaca, N.Y., about 160 miles northwest of New
>York City.

//Jyrki
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
From: cmeadows@nyx.cs.du.edu (Chris Meadows)
Subject: Re: Query: Can Universities limit network access &/or 'spy` on u
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 07:36:37 GMT


On a similar topic, I think that my university is the most anal-
retentive regarding its computers of any university on the planet.

I go to Southwest Missouri State University, in Springfield, and I
have heard rumors that students will no longer be able to get Inter-
net access next semester.  Others have said that Internet is just being
removed from another machine, and I'm not sure what to believe.

One of my friends was recently ordered by the head of some computer
department to unsubscribe to a list server he was using, because "stu-
dents never sign off of the list servers at the end of the semester."
And he was actually using it for ACADEMIC purposes (and I subscribe
to two servers, I could be next!).

Our school DOES have a few problems with Internet, the main one being
people who ftp 5 or 6 megabyte files at peak hours.  They seem to 
think that the simplest way to solve all this would be to cut stu-
dents off from Internet entirely.  Seems like amputating your arm
to be rid of a gangrenous finger to me.

They also don't like MUCKing--they don't consider it a "serious use
of computer resources."  But MUCKing is not putting an appreciable
strain on SMSU resources; I think they're just coming down on it
because they don't understand it.

I had thought that when an educational organization such as SMSU 
signed onto Internet, one of the basic tenets was that they had to
give any student instant access.  But as it stands now, we have to
get a sponsor's signature before we can get onto the mainframe with
Internet access.  And it's a very lousy mainframe, too.

Is there anything I can do about this?

--
Chris Meadows // CHM173S@SMSVMA // CMEADOWS@NYX.CS.DU.EDU
   "If blood be the price of admiralty, then I've just bought me 
    a naval commission."  -- Corwin, SIGN OF THE UNICORN, Roger Zelazny
From: Gregory.Hempel@f603.n130.z1.fidonet.org (Gregory Hempel)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: FBI Raids
Date: 19 Nov 92 11:37:03 GMT
Article-I.D.: puddle.22180.2B0EE267
Organization: FidoNet node 1:130/603 - The Cell, Fort Worth TX


 >>

 > eh?  How exactly does the action you quoted add any impetus to a BBS
 > being shut down?

 > bit much for a personal/hobby board.  many BBS's I call or know of
 > run on old, cheap equipment, and a phone line is about $15/mo.
 > Hardly "expensive".


   Well I do belive that you dont call that many systems that supply mail and files from many different places and have lots and lots to offer... Seems that I run a 600$ bill ever month... Thats just in mail calls. I run a FIDO BBS, and am in 8 other networks. Files, Messages, you name it come through here. I charge a 75$ life time and 35$ Per year... People seem to think that is reasnable and most of the callers are calling LD...


   Go figure but it seems to work here. And if I didnt have very interactive users I would not be able to pay the phone bills.

 G.


--  
uucp: uunet!m2xenix!puddle!130!603!Gregory.Hempel
Internet: Gregory.Hempel@f603.n130.z1.fidonet.org
From: "cloyd laporte iii" <cloyd.laporte.iii@execnet.com>
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: my 2 cents - nintendo
Date: 13 Nov 92 17:53:52 EST
Reply-To: "cloyd laporte iii" <cloyd.laporte.iii@execnet.com>
Distribution: comp
Organization: Executive Networks Information

It seems to me that Clark development did make Nintendo pay for the
second mailing, which was a victory of sorts.  Still, the lack of
sensitivity and understanding displayed by Nintendo and its lawyers
here is somewhat shocking, both in the original action, and the
subsequent statement by Arter & Hadden.

The "We recognize that there are many legitimate bulletin boards and
many honest sysops who support the ethical use of software" sounds
like they believe that the majority of sysops are crooks, and the
honest ones are the exception.

- Cloyd
---
  DeLuxe 1.26b #23bt  What's in a tag-line?
--
Executive Network Information System  (914) 667-4567
International ILink Host
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 13:37:09 EST
From: <JDG111@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: 2600 Busts in D.C.

Being one of the unfortunate souls who was "detained" at PumpCon, I was wonderi
ng if the SS or FBI has DEFINATELY been linked to the raid?  While I was there
(the whole damn night) the only people we saw or taled to were local police and
 investigators.  None of  the detectives claimed to be federal agents.  I have
attempted to keep in touch with those who were arrested there, as well as th ot
hers who where there, and no one has told me the feds were definately involved.
  Does anyone have DEFINITE proof they were/were not there?

--Doug
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk,alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk
From: kadie@cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: Query: Can Universities limit network access &/or 'spy` on u
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 22:14:06 GMT

cmeadows@nyx.cs.du.edu (Chris Meadows) writes:

>On a similar topic, I think that my university is the most anal-
>retentive regarding its computers of any university on the planet.
[...]

I think a university should strive to offer the best information
resources and forums to the whole university community. This should
include good libraries, a vigorous student press, and good computer
and network facilities.

Having said that, I note this goal is never completely reached. For
example, here at U. of Illinois, most undergrads are not allowed in
the main library stacks. If they know what book they want, they have
to request it at the Stacks desk and then wait (and wait) for it to be
retrieved.

However, even with limited resources there are wise and less than wise
ways to allocate resources. One thing you might try is to increase the
amount of faculty and student participation in the allocation process.

- Carl

-- 
Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
From: dmatiske@nd.edu (David Matiskella)
Subject: Re: Registered Keys - why the need?
Followup-To: comp.org.eff.talk
Organization: University of Notre Dame
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 02:51:55 GMT

In article <19724.2B06AED3@puddle.fidonet.org>,
Zhahai.Stewart@f93.n104.z1.fidonet.org (Zhahai Stewart) wrote:
> 
>  Maybe we need to re-open the question, and make a new amendment 
>  supporting gun ownership completely independent from any militia 
>  controlled by the government:
> 
>    "In order that a free people never become enslaved to their 
>    government, neither the United States, nor any of the individual 
>    States, shall prevent the citizens thereof from owning the 
>    weapons appropriate to common soldiers in time of war.  No
>    licence, training, nor direction by the government shall be
>    required."
> \
	Well the only problem is that weapons appropriate to common solders
include things like grenades, machine guns, rpgs, and the like. I really
don't think that your people with hunting guns would survive for very long
in any type of modern warfare. The American Revolution was fought between
to sides with almost equivalent weapons and the relovutionaries just barely
managed to win. In general the modern revolutionaries who have won have had
support of significant proportions of the military, and lots of outside
help.
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
From: pfarrell@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (Pat Farrell)
Subject: Re: Best Case Scenario
Organization: George Mason University, Fairfax, Va.
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 13:42:16 GMT

In article <18685.2B02FE99@puddle.fidonet.org> Zhahai.Stewart@f93.n104.z1.fidonet.org (Zhahai Stewart) writes:
>
> I know how frustrating it can be when one is making a proposal, and
> some group is more intent on shooting it down based on rough edges,
> than on cooperating to smooth those edges.  "Darn it, instead of opening
> holes in it, help me fix the fixable holes, so we can see if the 
> proposal is inherently unseaworthy or just unfinished."
>[stuff deleted]
> So my opposition to the registration of keys is profound and considered,
> and not based merely on the "rough edges" of early proposals.  I do not
> believe that my concerns can be addressed merely by refining such
> proposals, as I have done above, because the fundamental premises of
> such extensions of government power are in question, not just the 
> details of implementation.
>
> Respectfully, Zhahai Stewart

I am confused by your logic. I am strongly opposed to any
attempt to regulate encryption. I see it as further erosion of
our civil liberties, and as impractical and incapable of
reaching its stated goals.

Refinement of a fundamentally bad idea does not make it more
acceptable. So why waste bandwidth on refinement? If you want
to argue that society has a fundamental need to prevent me
from having private data, do so. Once you address the
foundation, you can build whatever technical details seem
appropriate.

Pat

Pat Farrell,      Grad Student                       pfarrell@cs.gmu.edu
Department of Computer Science, George Mason University, Fairfax, VA
PGP key available on request or via finger         #include standard.disclaimer
Write PKP. Offer money for a personal use license for RSA.  
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk