HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: <None>
Date: 30 Dec 92 11:10:09 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki

In article <1992Dec30.042859.27418@netcom.com>, lion@netcom.com (carl loeber) 
writes:
> I'm wondering what is the variation in alternatives proposed in the
> parliment and in the press.  Is there a feeling that there can be a 
> middle way, to have free markets and enterprise without having the
> corporate dominance and centralization of control of space and natural
> resources, as seems to be the case in the USA?


I agree totally - these alternatives are definitely as "distinctive" as
I presented them. Still, they might be useful as a rule of thumb when
deciding over crucial affairs - like in the Finnish defence politics.
The scheme was made up just for starting the discussion.

 
> Do Russians realize that there is little genuine representative
> government here, and are they being careful to prevent a change
> to plutacracy?
> (plutocracy)


I am afraid the plutocracy is there already (at least, in some meaning of the
term). But this was a question dedicated to Russians. I do not know personally 
the latest developments, I just watch Moscow television (which is filled with 
much entertainment and very little social analysis, unfortunately. But I 
suppose that's what the Russian people yearn in times of crises: at least 
entertainment).

 
with best regards
Tapani Hietaniemi, Universitas Helsingiensis
                   urbs fennorum
Xref: sparky soc.culture.soviet:11406 talk.politics.soviet:9906 soc.culture.europe:10700
From: pfeiffer@cict.fr (Daniel Pfeiffer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Five Swiss languages  Was: Russian Speakers in Estonia
Date: 22 Dec 92 10:02:13 GMT
	<1992Dec21.140921.1@cc.helsinki.fi> <sorokin.27@ps1.iaee.tuwien.ac.at>
	<1992Dec22.090407.1@cc.helsinki.fi>
Distribution: world
Organization: Instituto de Reser^cado pri Informadiko de Tuluzo (IRIT)
	      Universitato Paul Sabatier
X-Accent-Convention: ^c ^u
Reply-Languages: Esperanto, Deutsch, Francais, English
In-reply-to: thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi's message of 22 Dec 92 07:04:07 GMT

In article <1992Dec22.090407.1@cc.helsinki.fi> thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi writes:
>> And, do not forget, there are 3 languages in Switzerland, and 
>> at least two of them were from previous oppressors (German and French).

> Four, if you add Rheto-Rhumainian (Reto-Romania). But it's judicial status
> might be different.

This language is strongly protected, but slowly losing ground, because
there are no major towns or industry in its area.  But there are
actually five languages, if you count Franco-Provencal (Romand).  This
language, close to Occitanian of southern France, which is also spoken
in southern Burgundy, southern half of Franche-Comte, most of
Rhone-Alpes including Savoy and the Italian Valle-d'Aosta was branded
by Paris as a ``Patois'', a miserable dialect of French (which is
linguistically wrong), a blemish to get rid of!  And the Romand cantons
fell for this and taught pure Paris French in their schools.

Nowadays this language, which was the second by population in
Switzerland, is close to death, although some theatre and such
activity persists.

> Besides, German was never a language of "oppressors" in Switzerland.
> In Bern German was spoken from the very beginning. The same goes to French
> in cantons like Valais/Wallis.

Switzerland was not always the peaceful country it is since 1848, and
its agressions and extensions against neighbours often benefitted the
German (or Alemanic) speakers.
From: verbit@brauer.harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Boris Grebenschikov
Date: 22 Dec 92 10:28:14 GMT
Organization: Sozialistische Patienten Kollektiv

In article <105463@bu.edu> gdr@acs.bu.edu (Dmitry Goldenberg) writes:

>Also some of you great sages probably noticed that the phrase "Take me to the river, put me into water" is quoted directly from the Talking Heads' hit
>'Take me to the river' (I'm not sure if this is the right name, though). The
>Talking Heads' song... was borrowed from some don't-remember-his-name black blues
>composer. 
		Al Green. As Byrne said once, this song
	is a perverse mixture of singing about sixteen year 
	old girls with Baptist religiosity :)

	Another quoting from Talking Heads, even more explicit,
	is

Ty mozhesh' sprosit' sebya, gde moi novyi krasivyi dom,
Ty mozhesh' tsitirovat' Braiena Eno i Devida Birna,
No v lyuboi kommunal`noi kvatrire est' svoi sobstvennyi tsyrk,
Shagi v sapogakh v absolyutno pustom koridore...


which translates like

You may ask yourself: where is my new beautiful house
You may quote from Brian Eno and David Byrne,
 [ etc ]

	where first line _is _a _literal _quote from  
	(who else) Brian Eno and David Byrne (a song from
	Remain in Light, which title eludes me):

You may ask yourself: where is my new house
You may ask yourself: where is my beautiful wife
 [ etc ]



>I personally wouldn't call this plagiarism on the part 
>of BG - rather, conscious orunconscious borrowing or even simply quoting.

	I agree - these quotes are quite like samples in modern
	music. If every techno band in exustence samples "Jesus
	wept" from Hellraiser movie, this does not mean they
	all are ripping off Clive Barker.

	Another swell example of BG quoting is the songs
	"Synovya Molchalivykh Dnei" which title translates
	as "Sons of the Silent Age" - a title of Bowie
	song (from "Heroes"). Actually, the whole text of this BG
	song is somewhat translations from this Bowie's one,
	but nevertheless they are completely different - 
	Bowie lyrics was used as a bluprint for
	a tortured, stream-of-consciousness-ridden poem...


>One more word on the 'plagiarism' bullshit: nobody cursed Kinchev for quoting
>Aquarium's 'Misha From the City of Squeaking Statues' in the end of his (lousy)
>song 'New Method' on 'The Sixth Ranger'album... 

	Well, "Misha Is Goroda Skripyashchikh Statui" is a heavy
	allusion from Michael Moorcock Stormbringer serie anyway...
	
	(There appears City of Screaming Statues - Pan Tang,
	and Misha - the Lord of the Winds, son of Layasha :)

	Misha.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
From: Olli-Jukka Paloneva <opaloneva@abo.fi>
Subject: Re: Father Frost
Organization: Turku School of Economics
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 93 18:35:28 GMT

In article <1hau4jINNitv@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> Timothy Grall,
cl400@cleveland.Freenet.Edu writes:
>Can anyone enlighten me on this belief.  I read some time ago
>that is the equivalent of our belief of Santa Claus.

Santa Claus is related to Christmas. Christmas is considered
Christian.
An officially atheist country cannot accept Christmas.
Therefore one
had to have a substitute.

Russian Orthodox Christmas comes 14 days later than Western,
because
Russian Orthodox Church did not accept the Bolshevik
governments reform
of rejecting "czarist" Julianian (sorry my bad spelling)
calendar and
adopting "Western" Gregorian calendar.

Therefore "Bolshevik" Father Frost became 1st Januany, before
Russian
Christmas 7/8th (eve/day) January.

S Novym Godom!

Olli
Xref: sparky soc.culture.soviet:11751 talk.politics.soviet:10163 soc.culture.europe:10962
From: verbit@brauer.harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: FAQ
Date: 22 Dec 92 08:38:55 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1992Dec22.033855.18776
Organization: Sozialistische Patienten Kollektiv

In article <1992Dec21.085443.28901@math.ucla.edu> aps@sonia.math.ucla.edu (Alexei Stolboushkin) writes:

>A funny thing is that not only this imaginary person got stuck in translation,
>as a matter of fact, all English translations I ever seen are 
>``War and Peace'', while Leo Tolstoy used MIP (and not M I/I P) in the
>original; just another illustration to my recent posting on Soviet vs.
>Russian language.
>
>(for non-Russian speakers: in Russian there were two words with the
>same pronunciation ``meer'', but spelled differently. One means ``Peace'',
>and another ``World'', but also ``svet'' as opposite to ``Church''. Leo
>Tolstoy used the second word; in Soviet language, the spelling is the same.
>So, numerous translation to English should be marked ``Translated from
>Soviet'').

It is funny that there are people who don't know the
story of the title of Tolstoy's novel. Even more funny that
they still post. Note that this stuff is a part of obligatory
highschool program on literature.

For those who were not interested in literature while in school
I explain. Tolstoy indeed wanted to title his novel as War and World,
with MuP through izhitsa. Nevertheless, the novel was printed
under the title War and Peace, MuP through u. Apparently Tolstoy
did not mind, because in all editions afterwards the title
was War and Peace.

As Bulgakov's hero said, "pozdravlyayu vas, grazhdanin, sovramshi"

Misha.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.europe
From: Olli-Jukka Paloneva <opaloneva@abo.fi>
Subject: Re: svashchennaja boyna
Organization: Turku School Of Economics
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 92 13:39:20 GMT

In article <1992Dec28.070009.20489@cerberus.ulaval.ca> sylvain
chamberland, 2020211@SAPHIR.ULAVAL.CA writes:
>I know it's not a culture question, but a question about language, but
about
>the subject line, if it's meant to mean "holy war" or something like
that,
>should it not be "svjashchennaja boyna"? (according to my Oxford
>English-Russian dictionary...)
>
>(Sorry about the spelling, but I find it rather awkward to spell russian
words
>in English, for I took one Russian course as a French speaker...)

I agree with you that holy war is more like "svjashchennaja boyna".
My point by using svatovyi boi was to refer in an implicit way to
a Stalin's time song and temas of that widely-known song are
" Dark fashcist powers.... noble war....holy battle"

I would like to prove that distorted Russian patriotism and
panslavism are almost always caused by overliberalisation
and overdemokratization of Russian society which leads always
into stabilation which is ununderstandable by most innocent
and misleaded Westerners. Personally I think that bolshevism was
needed to rescue Russian Empire from the hole that abolition of
czarism meant.

There is ONE good reason to preserve Russian Empire - that is to
prevent China from taking its own in Asia! Therefore I think that
there is no hurry to overliberalize Russia in order to split it. This
is understood by US government, but not widely by the US public.

Olli
From: leonid@tuna.uchicago.edu (Leonid Andreev)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Boris Grebenschikov
Date: 21 Dec 92 23:17:01 GMT
	<LEONID.92Dec19131458@tuna.uchicago.edu> <BzL2xH.8DG@cs.columbia.edu>
Organization: University of Chicago CILS

Igor Pankevich writes:

>   In article <LEONID.92Dec19131458@tuna.uchicago.edu>, leonid@tuna.uchicago.edu (Leonid Andreev) writes:
>
>   > Well, that's true, one can see some "edinstvo stil'a" 
>   > (common style? - I've got no idea, what appropriate English 
>   > expression should be used) with this song as well as with,
>   > say, "Stihi pro Innokentija" ( Verses about Innokenty ). The
>   > problem here is that Bob *really* has this uniq ability of 
>   > "borrowing" styles from other people, he worked with. And it 
>   > is definitely true, that he borrowed a real lot from his
>   > friend Gunitsky.
>   > So sometimes it's really hard to tell...
>   > 
>   Now, I think you should see why this song, taken as it should have been, and
>   looked upon from the right point of view, is one of a kind, different from all the
>   other songs sung by BG. There can not possibly be any unity of stiles here: 
>   "Gorod" is a philosophically loaded piece, while "Storozh Sergeev" is just a
>   nicely drawn picture "Iz gorodskoi zhizni" (city life), and "Innokentii" is
>   simply an example of what in Russian called "graphomanstvo" in it's best
>   appearance. Or a caricature on such...

Dear Igor,

It was a different song - not "Gorod Zolotoy", but "Angel Vsenarodnogo 
Pokhmelja", we were talking about. Which is really written in a style,
similar to "Innokenty" or "Sergeev". I really like this term of yours -
"graphomanstvo in it's best appearance", which is perfectly applicable
to all these masterpieces.

I perfectly agree, as well, that "Gorod Zolotoy" really is "something
else".

>   All the best,
>
>   --Igor P.

Respectfully,

Leonid
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
From: goykhman@apollo.hp.com (Alexander S. Goykhman)
Subject: Re: Will Russia stand beside Serbia?
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 01:29:53 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Chelmsford, MA

In article <Dec.20.21.48.06.1992.581@ruhets.rutgers.edu> polyakov@ruhets.rutgers.edu (dimitri Polyakov) writes:
>My friend!Do you really think Russia is obliged to Serbia?
>No.Russia is not obliged to the fashist state.
>       Merry Christmas,
>                       -Dimitri Polyakov

    Serbia is no more fascist than Russia itself, but if you
    must use stereotypes - call them "communist", while Croatia 
    and Bosnia - "fascist".
From: muh@physics1 (Yury M. Mukharsky)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: FAQ
Date: 23 Dec 1992 23:08:36 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics1.berkeley.edu

In article <Dec.22.19.52.02.1992.26335@ruhets.rutgers.edu> golosov@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Denis Golosov) writes:
>origin: mVro, Vssop, etc. As far as I know, nothing has been done to pheta 
>("theta") before Bolsheviks.

As far as I remember, there is story by Chekhov, where official, in charge
of theta, is fired, as letter is dropped from alphabet.

Again, AFAIR, Bolshevik's did not drop anything, it was done between 
February and October. They have enough to blame on them, spare them this
time.

Yury M.
From: exs16@po.CWRU.Edu (Eugene Shumulinsky)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Another zagadka.
Date: 25 Dec 1992 16:56:24 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: br707@Cleveland.Freenet.Edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc12.ins.cwru.edu


Here is another zagadka for all of you. I could not solve it and could
not locate ther person who posted it so maybe someone in this group can
solve it:


   Well there is this one guy who wants to get into this city. To get into
the city he has to go through one of the two IDENTICAL gates. Only 1 GATE
leads to the city but it's impossible to tell since they are identical.
'Podle' (near) each gate there is a guard. So there is a total of two
guards who are twins and they are exactly IDENTICAL. The only difference is
that one of them always tells the TRUTH and the other always LIES.

What question must the guy ask (only 1 question) to get into the city?

This is not as easy as it seems...



TTYL,
M.

Happy Holidays.

-- 
   Nighthawkk   | "No one holds command over me.  No man.  No god.  No Prince.
       of       |  What is a claim of age for ones who are immortal?  What is a
 NIGHTMARE Inc. |  claim of power for ones who defy death?  Call your damnable 
                |  hunt.  We shall see who I drag screaming to Hell with me."
From: muh@physics1 (Yury M. Mukharsky)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: FAQ
Date: 23 Dec 1992 23:48:10 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics1.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Dec23.015459.13924@math.ucla.edu> aps@sonia.math.ucla.edu (Alexei Stolboushkin) writes:
>izhitsa, esp.if he is from Harvard. But a person from UC system
>is expected to know what izhitsa is.

If he cares. I do not. I have not found Ukrainian literature a bit richer, due
to the presense of i end epsilon there. Neither Abkhasian or whatever with
all those fancy letters. What happened-happened. Modern Russian has neither
ozhitsa, no theta, no yat'. Period. All this bullshit about newspeak is bullshit.
Sure it is newspeak. 70 years passed. To my taste it is not newspeak enough.
All these "Institute for Russian Language" froze the development of language
much more than changed it. As a result Russian now full of borrowed words, which
has exact prototype in Russian. To put it in other words, English (German, French
whatever) word, which is borrowed is used in original language for ages and
has equivalent in Russian. Example: presentation. There are much more. The
reason is simple: people are not used to modify Great and Mighty language
of Pushkin and Tolstoy.

What you call newspeak has other, IMHO more appropriate name kantseljarit
"Bueraucratian". Average person in any nation know a very small number of words.
Nor more than in original newspeak, I suppose ( (c) Orwell). In SU this set
of words was close in different groups of people and close to "language of
officials" (which of cause exists everywhere as well). So what?

Yury M.

Disclaimer: I'm nobody's phylologist.
From: mam18@jaguar.uofs.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Starye Stikhi
Date: 21 Dec 92 16:34:40 GMT
Organization: University of Scranton

Podrazhanie Maiakovskomu
------------------------

Nebo tsveta riabiny zreloi
S odnoi storony, a s drugoi
Kak budto by nebo pokrasili melom  --
Uima na nem oblakov.

I sin' s krasnotoi slivaiutsia vmeste,
V tochke spleten'ia ikh zvezdy podtaiali.
I vot, vyplyvaet zheltolikii persten',
Osvetiv oblakov izvaianiia.

Liubliu smotret' ia kak nebo svetleet
I noch' otdaet svoi vladeniia,
A solntse vse iarche, vse teplee greet,
Kak budto elovye poleniia.

Takuiu krasotishchu nigde ne uvidish'.
Osobo zdorovo, kogda ty posredi polia:
Vot vyplyvaet nashe svetilishche,
Nepodvlastnoe chelovecheskoi vole.


Podrazhanie Shekspiru (Sonet #80).
----------------------------------

Stat' angelom vy ne smogli,
No ia o tom i ne zhaleiu.
Vy ne zvezda, ta chto vdali,
Ia vas tak blizko litsezreiu.

Net, vy ne pesnia pod lunoi
I ne romashka v dikom pole.
Ostalis' vy sama soboi
Sredi nichtozhnogo zloslov'ia.

Ia vas liubliu takoi, kak est',
Ocharovan'ia Navazhden'e.
K chemu nuzhna pustaia lest',
Kol' vy prekrasny ot rozhden'ia.

I vy zatmili svoim svetom
Vse obrazy velikogo poeta.


Chernyi sonet
-------------

Lish' chernoe i beloe vokrug,
Na svete tret'ego, uvy, ne znaiu.
Kak solntse mil moi milyi drug,
Vraga zh iz tuchi] izvaiaiu...

Moi angel potemnel, dusha moia cherna,
Khotia byla kak oblaka kogda-to,
No paru raz udarila sud'ba,
Chto molniia pri gromovykh raskatakh:

Udariv v derevo, ona
Ego chernet' vdrug zastavliaet.
Ono bezzhiznenno, kak ia,
Tsvety na nem ne rastsvetaiut.

I moi zakonchilsia razbeg,
Uvy, ia chernyi chelovek...


		Michael Martynov.
From: simon1@bass.bu.edu (Simon Streltsov)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas everyone!
Date: 24 Dec 92 21:07:27 GMT
Reply-To: simon1@bass.bu.edu (Simon Streltsov)
Followup-To: soc.culture.soviet
Organization: Boston University

In article <15227.2b39d133@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu> viznyuk@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu writes:
>In article <105638@bu.edu>, simon1@bass.bu.edu (Simon Streltsov) writes:
>> 
>> And isn't the difference between you is only in the fact,
>> that it took Russians longer to get their hands on the new calendar,
>> than to steal nuclear weapons ?!
>
>I again missing something in all subtle intricacies of your
>intriguing writings. Are you drunk already ? It's only 3pm EST.

1:0,Agreed...
Honestly,I also have troubles reading my own writing right now.

Well, it's the 5-th day of Chanukah, you know, but I probably
put vodka in some latkes by mistake. 

My understanding of the different time of birthday parties by orto-
and nonorto- coincides with Julian/Gregorian calendars, and the fact, that it
took Russia ... centuries to adopt Gregorian one, right?

In any way, I'm following western tradition - and celebrate 25 Dec -
also birthday of my Grandmother - ad mea veesrim !(do 120-ti),
sorry, Serega, ia ne c toboi.

By the way, anybody knows Jewish day of birth of the person you celebrate?(-:
(any decent Jew remembers it, so he could tell it to his students either),
if you know, I have a program, which will calculate his year of birth,
if you are interested.

Hope it helps.

>Aj-ia-iaj, Senya :-)
Priezgaite k nam na Purim, i ne to uvidite..
>Serega
Senya
From: opaloneva@abo.fi (Olli-Jukka Paloneva)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Bulgarians - descendents of a Finnis tribe?
Date: 21 Dec 92 13:14:48 GMT
     <Dec.20.21.48.06.1992.581@ruhets.rutgers.edu>
     <1h3p3oINNb1a@agate.berkeley.edu>
Organization: Turku School Of Economics
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1

In article <1992Dec21.033927.18749@husc3.harvard.edu> Michael Zeleny,
zeleny@husc10.harvard.edu writes:
>Bulgarians are an authentic thorn in the side of the Baltic fascists:
>Orthodox Christians, speaking a Southern Slavic language, but descended
>from an ancient Finnish tribe, who conquered the Slavs of Moesia in the
>seventh century C.E.; the facts are well-known, and incontrovertible.

When Kemal Ataturk put a Bulgarian book "Finland - country of
the White Lilies" as compulsory teaching material many Turks
think that Finns are their relative nation.

Finnish Guard fought successfully 1877-78 in Gornyj-Dublnjak
for Bulgaria and we still have a military song telling about it.

Could some one reveal more facts of Finnish tribes which possibly
were relatives of Turks and Bulgarians?

- Olli -
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.europe
From: viznyuk@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Apology to Croats and their supporters
Date: 22 Dec 92 13:39:30 EST
Organization: Midwest Rat's Hole

In article <1992Dec21.111855.1@jaguar.uofs.edu>, mam18@jaguar.uofs.edu writes:
> I screwed up! I screwed up! I screwed up!
> 
> My apology to everybody, who knows that Croatians are Catholic and
> Bosnians are Muslim...  Brainfart, you  know...
> 
> Yet... I repeat, yet, Bulgars are NOT Slavs!!!

This is just the matter of convention. If fellow Bulgars
didn't consider themselves Slavs, then they were not.
If fellow Bulgarians do consider themselves Slavs, then
they are, no matter how often you will repeat the opposite.

> 
> Michael Martynov.

Serega
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet