HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Dale McMillen <dmcmillen@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
Date: 05 Jan 93 09:07 PST
Subject: Re: Greens vs. Property Rights
Nf-ID: #R:1hs8brEINNfle@uni-erlangen.de:-1634168734:cdp:1678600031:000:1182
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!dmcmillen    Jan  5 09:07:00 1993


> 2. The 30 billion is based on a National Academy of Sciences study
> of some years ago about food.  As for everything else, name what you
> suppose to be a limiting resource.  Name two, and I'll discuss them.

1. Land fill space

2. Energy

3. Clean Water

4. Clean Air

5. Forest Products (oh, how I hate to use those words together!)

... Just for starters ...

> 4. The two billion malnourished people are less malnourished than
> before the Green Revolution, and there is a lot more where that
> came from.

The Green Revolution [sic] brought in mono-culture crops supported
by biocides, fertilizers, and oil consuming farm machinery.
Originally, there was a surplus because the soil was still rich from
its previous organic care and because the insect pests had not mutated
to adjust to the biocides.  However, this method of farming began to
render less and less as the soil was depleted of its organic nutrients
and the insects became resistant to biocides.  In many parts of the
world, the situation has gotten so bad that farming communities have had
to revert to traditional organic methods of farming.  And guess what?
The soil began to produce abundantly again!

Dale

Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
From: gummitch@techbook.com (Jeff Frane)
Subject: Re: Greens vs. Property Rights
Organization: TECHbooks --- Public Access UNIX --- (503) 220-0636
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 00:31:38 GMT

leecr@microsoft.com (Lee Crocker) writes:

>In article <C0Ep1n.5GH@techbook.com> gummitch@techbook.com (Jeff Frane) writes:
>>
>>And this statement that no man in history ever got rich...  You simply
>>cannot be serious!  Have you really no idea how many "capitalists" built
>>enormous personal wealth on the backs of immigrant labor, pitting one
>>group against another and taking advantage of the huge boom in potential
>>labor during the latter part of the 19th century?

>Yes, zero.  You put "capitalist" in quotes for a very good reason--
>because those men were not capitalists, they were robber barons,
>supported by laws that looked the other way while they committed
>their crimes against humanity.  A capitalist is one who gets rich
>by the work of his own hands and mind, and by free trade and
>negotiation with others; a man who lives for no one's sake but
>his own and asks no other man to live for his.
>>

Ah, now I understand!  I've always had trouble understanding Libertarian
logic, but it's now clear: we're talking, not about Real Life, but a
world made up of Saints.  The problem, of course, is applying this sort
of benign fantasy to real people.


>>
>>This is what happens to Libertarians when they don't get enough sleep.

>Ooh, devastating logic there.  Can you tell me how any of these
>hideous actions of government do anything but hurt the poor and put
>up barriers to free enterprise?

Well, there were some attempts during the New Deal to give Labor a few
rights, and there were all those people put to work (after Capitalism
had made such a wonderful mess of things in their Boom), and there was a
lot of wonderful construction done by those people, and then well Head
Start (which even Conservatives have to concede works), and public
libraries, and public schools and fire companies and police forces.

But, of course, none of that counts and all government is bad.

--Jeff Frane

>-- 
>Lee Daniel Crocker    | Free minds; free bodies; free trade.
>leecr@microsoft.com   | Libertarian Party  1-800-682-1776
-- 
gummitch@techbook.COM  Public Access UNIX at (503) 220-0636 (1200/2400)
From: Dale McMillen <dmcmillen@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
Date: 06 Jan 93 20:17 PST
Subject: LET'S DISCUSS NUCLEAR ENERGY!
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1678600048:000:762
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!dmcmillen    Jan  6 20:17:00 1993


> In order to get the energy required by all these people [the supposed 
> carrying capacity of the earth -- 30 Billion people], we would
> have to use nuclear breeder reactors.
 
Where do you suggest storing the radioctive waste?
 
How do you justify poisoning Native Americans by mining the toxic
radioactive ore from their lands?
 
How do ensure there will be no more Chernobyls or Three Mile Islands?
 
Are you concerned that the radioactivity will create mutant life forms?
 
How do you justify the very expensive cost of generating electricity
by using nuclear reactors as opposed to conventional methods?
 
Don't you think the government's real purpose for promoting nuclear
energy to convince us that there is a peaceful use for the nuclear bomb?
 
Dale
From: ausman@ocf.berkeley.edu (James Ausman)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
Subject: Re: Greens vs. Property Rights
Date: 9 Jan 1993 03:54:30 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility
NNTP-Posting-Host: planecrash.berkeley.edu

I think that these questions where meant to be rhetorical, but I will
answer them anyway, to prove a point.

In article <C0GzDI.DBx@darkside.osrhe.uoknor.edu> bil@okcforum.osrhe.uoknor.edu (Bill Conner) writes:
>
>
>   Are you one of those who grieves for the poor? 
Yes.
>Can you give a single example of their plight being caused by
>other accumulating wealth?
Sure, how about the banks repossesing land in Arkansas or Oklahoma
and forcing off the owners, many who became homeless migrants?
>Are you now giving your substance to help the homeless, the
>poor, the disadvantaged? 
Yeah, both time and money.  About 10% of my gross income (which isn't
much) at last estimate and about 10 hrs/week.
>Do you live in a cardboard box so you can give the equivalent
>of a house payment to the poor?
No, but I live in a co-op with a shared bathroom, living room and 
dining room. 
>Do you eat garbage so you can spend your earnings to feed the hungry?
No, but I have been known to eat garbage because it tastes good! :-)
Have you ever heard of "dumpster-diving"? I have also served garbage
to the hungry... Have you ever heard of Food Not Bombs?
>What have you done to help these miserable wretches?
I will not beat my own drum anymore, but I could give more examples
if asked. (actually, I have only listed a few)
>
>   Or are you part of the legions of hypocites that like to attend
>marches when the weather's nice, spend hundreds of dollars each year
>on books and magazines that tell what you want to hear? What kind of
>car to drive, how many cars do you own, how many TVs, VCRs, tell us
>about your stereo, your computers, your furniture, the artwork you've
>collected. Show us the receipts for the clothes you've bought for you
>and yours this last year. Your protests degrade you and your cause.
>
I don't know, maybe you can answer that question yourself.  I certainly
live better than the homeless we let camp out in our back yard.  But
I lived on about $7,000 last year of which $3k went to the UC and about
$700 to taxes.  My lifestyle is not one most would consider extravagant.

Jim Ausman


-- 
	Where there is a lower class I am in it.  Where there is a criminal
	element I am of it.  Where there is a soul in prison I am not free.
					-E.V. Debs
From: Dale McMillen <dmcmillen@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
Date: 06 Jan 93 20:12 PST
Subject: Re: NEWS ABOUT THE GREENS
Nf-ID: #R:cdp:1678600016:cdp:1678600040:000:379
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!dmcmillen    Jan  6 20:12:00 1993


To Everyone:
 
To find out any Green Group around the U.S. contact: gpusa@igc.apc.org
 
Or, call 1-800-257-7336 or 1-816-931-9366
 
Dale
 
P.S. Matt Bonner, for the San Diego Greens contact: sdgreens@igc.apc.org
 
P.P.S.  Laura, I don't know if the Florida Greens have a network address,
        but I am sure a phone call to the "800" number above can put you
        in touch.
From: Brian Chambers <bchambers@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
Date: 06 Jan 93 15:27 PST
Subject: Re: Detroit Summer '93? (was Re: PLEASE
Nf-ID: #R:1993Jan4.181408.6117@vexcel.com:793582498:cdp:1678600038:000:2123
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!bchambers    Jan  6 15:27:00 1993


There is going to be a "Detroit Summer '93" !!!!

Currently the momentum is beeing maintained within Detroit by
holding regular monthly political dialogues.  These are
multi-generational events for people in the city to discuss the
politics of their environment.

For people not acquainted with Detroit Summer - it is a Green
sponsored event, initiated by long time Detroit activists (among
whom are Grace Lee and Jimmie Boggs, as well as Shea Howell, and
John Gruchala - these names may mean something to only a few
people but I thought I would at least mention them).  Neighborhood
groups (either formal ones or informal ones) would propose
projects for summer work that then the local Detroit Summer
committee would recruit volunteer youth from around the city and
around the summer to work on.  About 150 youth were pulled
together last summer, for what many considered a 'quality' event
(small, but beautiful!).  The Greens did fund raising for it,
along with a number of other groups around the country.  We (The
Greens/Green Party USA) also funded the major portion of two staff
people who were recruited and hired by the local Detroit Summer
committee.

The Greens have called for more projects to be organized in a
similar fashion around the country for this comming summer.
Basically, we are making one of our main nationally supported
projects the rebuilding of the nation's cities - especially our
inner cities, and especially by working with local people on
projects that are designed to meet local needs.

Some of the projects last summer included creating parks and
gardens, basketball courts, cleaning vacant alleys, and painting
and restoring homes.  The neighborhood groups that proposed the
projects also worked on them.  It was a pleasure to see the
support that the initial team received from the rest of the
community from additional volunteers that came out, once they saw
what was happening.  Both the main papers endorsed Detroit Summer,
as well as two of the tv stations, and the City Council.
Hopefully we can maintain both the volunteer focus as well as the
grassroots nature of control!

Brian

Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens,sci.energy
From: neff@iaiowa.physics.uiowa.edu (John S. Neff)
Subject: Re: LET'S DISCUSS NUCLEAR ENERGY!
Organization: The University of Iowa
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 19:32:26 GMT

In article <82344@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM> mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark Wilson) writes:
>From: mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark Wilson)
>Subject: Re: LET'S DISCUSS NUCLEAR ENERGY!
>Date: 7 Jan 93 17:02:55 GMT
>In <1993Jan7.125817.14283@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> prs9k@brain.med.virginia.edu (Phil Scarr) writes:
>
>|In article <1678600048@igc.apc.org> Dale McMillen <dmcmillen@igc.apc.org> writes:
>|>Where do you suggest storing the radioctive waste?
>
>|Breeder reactors don't produce waste, they consume it.  There is one
>|small side effect though:  unlike normal reactors which can only
>|meltdown, breeder reactors can blow up like a bomb.  Read _We Almost
>|Lost Detroit_ for more details on the near fatal runaway reaction at the
>|Enrico Fermi reactor.
>
>Wrong.
>I've never seen the book, but I will look for it.
>I've cross posted this to sci.energy in hopes that one of the gurus over
>there will be able to give a more complete answer.
>-- 
>Mob rule doesn't become any prettier, just because the mob start to call itself
>a government.
>It ain't charity if you are using someone else's money.
>Mark.Wilson@AtlantaGA.NCR.com
What happened at the Enrico Fermi Power station was that during a test, a 
plate shifted position and blocked the flow of the liquid metal used to cool 
the reactor.The operators were able to shut down the reactor without any 
release of radiation. The reactor was repaired but for reasons I don't
recall was never operated. Evidently someone was quoted as saying "We nearly
lost Detroit. "  A gross overstatement in my view.

 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
From: dianem@boi.hp.com (Diane Mathews)
Subject: Re: PLEASE SIGN IN!
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 16:17:27 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard / Boise, Idaho

>I'll start first.  My name is Dale McMillen and I hook into this
>list via econet.  I am a computer programmer by trade, but my main
>activity is helping organize the Greens in Northern Virginia.  I have
>been an active member for about 3 years, and am currently a Green
>Council Rep from the Mid-Atlantic Region.  I have a degree in music
>and nearly a masters in Divinity, Business Administration and 
>Information Systems.

I'm Diane Mathews, hooked into this group via ethernet through HP in CA
(I'm in Boise.)  I work as an EE, w/ many outside (literally) interests.
I only heard of "Greens" as a political unit w/in the last 8 months.
I'm tapping into this group out of curiosity, as well as a desire to find
out what i can actually do for a sustainable planet.  I have a BA in Physics
and Spanish, a BSEE and an MSEE.
From: bj368@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mike E. Romano)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
Subject: Back the Greens with Greenbacks
Date: 11 Jan 1993 13:59:05 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu



I believe the title is self explanatory.

-- 
Capt. Kirk: let's head for that planet, third from the sun, it
            looks promising.... |-)
From: dean@vexcel.com (Dean Alaska)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
Subject: Re: LET'S DISCUSS NUCLEAR ENERGY!
Date: 12 Jan 93 22:17:38 GMT
Organization: VEXCEL Corporation, Boulder CO

In article <90231@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM> mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark Wilson) writes:
>In <1678600059@igc.apc.org> dmcmillen@igc.apc.org (Dale McMillen) writes:
>
>Also since solar will never provide more than a fraction of the power
>needed, we will still need some other forms of energy. 

Opinions stated as fact will not get you very far.  There is no reason
to assume that solar will never provide more than a fraction of the
power needed.  Yes, there are technical and cost limitations that
prevent it from being dominant _today_.  Do you believe they will
never be solved?  They son't seem to be such significant problems.
I will take a hint from John McCarthy and ask you to provide two
reasons why you believe that solar energy cannot be a significant
contributor.
>
>Mark.Wilson@AtlantaGA.NCR.com


-- 
==============================================================================
	Dean Myerson     (aka dingo in boulder)     dean@vexcel.com
==============================================================================
From: dean@vexcel.com (Dean Alaska)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
Subject: Detroit Summer '93? (was Re: PLEASE SIGN IN!)
Date: 4 Jan 93 18:14:08 GMT
Organization: VEXCEL Corporation, Boulder CO

In article <1993Jan3.190411.177@vela.acs.oakland.edu> w2lee@argo.acs.oakland.edu writes:
>
>Anyone know if there's gonna be a "Detroit Summer '93"?

There is supposed to be a general program (I forget what it is called)
to create these types of programs in a number of cities.
>
>Next?
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Walter Lee                                          w2lee@argo.acs.oakland.edu
>
>Candy is dandy, but liquour is quicker.
>                                -- Ogden Nash.


-- 
==============================================================================
A thought for the holidays:
   "Wine is living proof that God loves us and likes to see us happy"
	- Benjamin Franklin			dean@vexcel.com
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
From: leecr@microsoft.com (Lee Crocker)
Subject: Re: Greens vs. Property Rights
Date: 05 Jan 93 21:16:48 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

>The history of capitalistic development, in its present form, in the 
>world is that more development and more production has been
>followed with more disparity in income and consumption in most
>countries.  This is happening in the US right now and it is
>happening in the supposed Mexican miracle right now.  Capitalism
>is clearly the best system for maximizing production, but is that
>the only goal?

Well, in a word, yes.  The poorest mentally ill homeless drifter
in the US has more food and shelter than most people in Somalia,
Bangladesh, and a dozen other third world countries.  Maximizing
production maximizes the opportunity for wealth for everyone.  The
fact that some become fabulously wealthy and others do not is a
side effect that you obviously feel is evil.  I do not.  Disparity
exists in nature as well, and fighting it at the expense of
productivity is the true evil.  I am employed by the wealthiest
man in the US, and I know that he has no more technical expertise
than I do, yet he is worth $8B, and I'm barely solvent.  Do I think
that's wrong?  No!  Because of him, I live in a better apartment
than I would without him, eat better food, and generally live a
better life than I would have if he hadn't employed me.  The fact
that he got lucky in the right place at the right time and became
the rich one is no skin off my nose.  Life is a gamble, and some
win more than others.  That's not unfair, just reality, and whining
about it is just immature nonsense.

-- 
Lee Daniel Crocker    | Free minds; free bodies; free trade.
leecr@microsoft.com   | Libertarian Party  1-800-682-1776
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
From: bil@okcforum.osrhe.uoknor.edu (Bill Conner)
Subject: Re: Greens vs. Property Rights
Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 05:50:23 GMT


   Mr. Bahro apparently isn't aware that over 600 years have passed since the
founding of the Bendictine Order; according to some aphorism or
another, time changes things. What was a feasible lifestyle in the
13th 0r 14th century may not work today. Sad but true, technology and
its by-products are here to stay.

   You speak of the desirability of the lifestyle of the Little
Brothers excepting only their autocratic God, yet surely you must know
that no one is going to voluntarily choose to return to that benighted
world. However, since you are Right, you have a moral imperative to
compel us to join your cheerless commune; you may be more like the
Bendictines than you imagine ...

Bill
From: alaric@sti.com (Alaric Tekiahyn)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
Subject: Re: save the earth - ridiculous!
Date: 7 Jan 1993 03:50:14 GMT
Organization: Software Transformation, Inc.
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: smurf.sti.com

In article <JMC.93Jan6150304@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>, jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy) writes:
] I assume that Michael Wendling, as someone in a physics and astronomy
] department, is capable of the arithmetic required to show that the
] amount of oxygen (20 percent) in the atmosphere cannot be
] significantly reduced by burning fuels.  There is too much oxygen
] and not enough carbon in burnable form.


Right.  And the sea can absorb infinite amounts of pollution, and
we'll never run out of oil, and there's always more trees....

Pull the other one, John, it's got bells on.  We live on a *FINITE*
planet.  Surprise, surprise.  We live on a finite planet with finite
extents of forest remaining, and those forests - the tropical rainforests
in particular - do the lion's share of recycling CO2 into O2, as I've
already pointed out.  *That* is what Michael Wendling is talking about.

Believe it or not, the act of felling a tree does have environmental
effects that are totally independent of whether you decide to burn it
or not.


] John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
] *
] He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.

"You can lead a horse to water,
     But you cannot make him drink;
 You can lead a man to reason,
     But you cannot make him think."

-- 
      "Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom."  --  Thomas Jefferson
    ......................................................................
    Phil Stracchino : phils@sti.com : alaric@sti.com : The Renaissance Man
      PGP 2.0 - Freeware public-key data encryption.  Get it and use it!
           Finger alaric@sti.com for PGP 2.0 info and my public key
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
From: leecr@microsoft.com (Lee Crocker)
Subject: Re: Greens vs. Property Rights
Date: 05 Jan 93 21:36:19 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

> One of the central myths of capitalism is that Growth Is Good.

No, that's one of the central myths _about_ capitalism dragged up
by its opponents.  The only "good" recognized by capitalism is
personal wealth.  If growth produces that, then it's good.  When
growth no longer produces wealth, then it will decline.  Wealth
is created by growth and by invention.  When growth becomes a
burden, invention will have to become the sustenance of wealth--
new energy forms, more efficient agriculture, new technologies
to reduce travel and communication costs, and other things will
be the hallmark of progress in the years to come.

>Wealth creation is only half of the equation of providing the minimum
>level of wealth for human dignity.  Wealth distribution is the other
>half.  History has shown that Capitalism is a very good way to produce
>wealth, but it has also shown that it is a really crappy way of spreading
>it around.  What tends to happen is that a small minority get all the 
>power and keeps it.

This can only happen when capitalism is corrupted by government, as it
is in the US.  In a fluid market, millionaires are made and unmade
every day and the turnover of wealth is high.  Only when the government
steps in with subsidies and licensing laws and taxes and other
encumbrances to free trade do people acquire power.  Wealth is only
power when there exist a power base (i.e. government) that can be
bought.  If the government were not powerful enough to be worth buying,
wealth would simple be wealth, not power, and the wealthy would
spend it while they had it like there was no tomorrow.
-- 
Lee Daniel Crocker    | Free minds; free bodies; free trade.
leecr@microsoft.com   | Libertarian Party  1-800-682-1776
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: Greens vs. Property Rights
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
	<JMC.93Jan6221044@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> <1ilg23INNpcu@smurf.sti.com>
Date: 8 Jan 93 20:45:14

I said and Tekiahyn replied in his typical wild guess manner:

] 4. What specific pollution are you referring to?  Each kind of
] pollution has its own remedies.

     That's a cop-out, and you know it.  OK, here's one for you:
     Heat pollution.  Waste heat from all that power generation.
     Let's see you talk your way out of the Second Law of
     Thermodynamics.

The phrase "Second Law of Thermodynamics" is used by
environmentalist fakers as a religious incantation.  It has to do with
the efficiency of heat engines.  In this case, it is entirely
irrelevant.  What is relevant here is the first law of thermodynamics,
the conservation of energy.  The heat generated from power generation
and the consumption too has to go somewhere.

However, the total energy used by humanity is 1/50,000 of the energy
reaching the earth from the sun which also has to be dissipated.  The
additional heat generated by power plants is trivial except extremely
locally.

There are many ways of dissipating excess heat into space, but I doubt
anyone will bother with them until we get close to 1/100 of the energy
reaching the earth.

If anyone wants to comment on this posting, it had better be by email,
because I'm going on a trip, and when I return I will have to flush out
all the newsgroups I follow and start over.
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.