HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jeq@i88.isc.com (Jonathan E. Quist)
Subject: Re: water and carboys
Organization: INTERACTIVE Systems Corporation, Naperville, IL
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 22:52:29 GMT

In article <BzHpDB.Bqp@news.cso.uiuc.edu> amead@s.psych.uiuc.edu (Alan Mead) writes:
>Also, where do you get bottles?  A local liquor store will sell me
>dirty refundables for $1.50/case.  But these are the same kind of
>bottles that you can pop the bottom off of with a sharp blow to the neck

Try the same trick with a non-returnable bottle.  But wear a heavy leather
glove...

Returnable bottles are re-used numerous times by the bottlers, using automated
bottling machines.  I daresay you won't produce the same stresses with your
hand bottle capper as those machines could.  BTW, before actually buying
a bottle capper (you won't need it for a few weeks, at the earliest) try
checking out local antique shops.  I found a capper in good condition
for $10 (and two more in bad condition for $15 and $50) vs. $40 for
a new benchtop capper.


As long as you're talking about blowing up bottles, I may as well share my
first homebrew disaster, which occurred last Friday.  Seems my father-in-law
thought my homebrew was pretty good, so I went to the basement to
get a few more chilling.  I'm using cases of Huber bottles (for those in
the midwest who know what Huber is) - 12 oz. longnecks - which come in heavy
cases containing 3 removeable 8-pack cartons.  Being clever, I picked up
one of the cartons, which still had 6 bottles in it.  Guess what?  The
carton didn't survive the ravages of re-use, and the bottom came apart,
dropping 6 bottles to a concrete floor from a height of 3 feet.
(Lordy, did that make a racket!)  The good news - 3 of the bottles
survived, apparently unscathed (no, I didn't offer one to Dad to open!).
Two bottles broke in various ways.  The last bottle was interesting - the
cap was blown clean off it, and from a quick inspection, the bottle appears
to be unscathed.  (I'm checking it carefully before I decide this for
certain.)  Since I was in the middle of entertaining, and since
the break was in an enclosed area where pets and kids can't get to it, I
left it.  The following afternoon, I decided to clean up a bit.
Well, the beer either evaporated or found a hole in the floor, because
it was gone.  But boy, does my workshop smell good now!





later,
-- 
Jonathan E. Quist                              INTERACTIVE Systems Corporation
jeq@i88.isc.com  '71 CL450-K4 "Gleep", DoD #094        Naperville, IL
                Celebrate the winter holiday of your choice by
                  offering your hand to someone who needs it.
From: silver.e@zooid.guild.org (Eric Silver)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing
Subject: Re: Copper ions in wort
Date: 21 Dec 92 05:41:27 GMT

From: wolo@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Greg Wolodkin)
>  After thinking about the gleaming de-oxidized wort chiller, I did
>a back-of-the-envelope calculation and it seems to me that I have
>no real need to worry.. Let's say I have 40' of copper tubing, 1/2" 
>outside diameter.  That works out to be about 0.5 square meters of
>surface area.
>
>  I've taken the atomic radius of a copper atom to be ~1.2 angstroms,
>and (naively) assumed that one atom takes up about 5.8 square angst.
>That's 5.8e-20 square meters per atom, so there's about 8.6e+18
>atoms exposed on the surface of the chiller.  
>
>  If this whole surface layer is oxidized and then removed into the
>acidic wort, what happens? 

(angst.) ??? !!! ??? 
This is assuming that the Cu has a non-porous surface (not) AND that
there is a layer of cupric oxide only one atom thick (not).
Nice try though :-). Hey, maybe you could create green beer with the
cupric oxide for St. Patrick's Day! :-)

Eric Silver - York, Upper Canada.
"Legitimize dissent in Canada!"

Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing
From: guido@island.COM (Guido Marx)
Subject: Re: First Batch Report
Organization: Island Graphics Corp.  San Rafael, Ca.
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 19:25:32 GMT

In article <725253581.F00001@tdkt.kksys.com> Ewan.Grantham@f62.n282.z1.tdkt.kksys.com (Ewan Grantham) writes:
>Greetings,
>
>Am still wondering what most people do for bottling. Do you normally fill all
>the bottles and then cap them, or fill one, cap it, fill another, cap it, etc.?

I fill a bottle, then place the cap on the bottle, then fill another, etc ...
I do this until I have about twelve bottles, then I cap them all.  Repeat
until done ;*)

Guido


Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing
From: rstevahn@boi.hp.com (Robert Stevahn)
Subject: Propane Burners?
Summary: Is anyone using one of these for brewing?
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 17:43:00 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard / Boise, Idaho
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.4 PL6]

Greetings. I'm trying to get started with brewing, and am preparing to 
line up the equipment. I have one problem, which is that our range, 
which has two ovens, does not have enough clearance between the stove
and the upper oven for a large (~5-6 gal., which is about what I want to
use) vessel.

So, I am left with a few options. 1) Buy a new range (Not!); 2) Use a
smaller vessel (Not!); 3) Buy a portable electic burner; or 4) Buy a 
propane burner.

I am unsure of option 3 because 1) I think that the portable burners I've
seen are the size of a small stove burner, and I don't think that's enough
surface area to efficiently heat 4-5 gallons of stuff, and 2) it will be
running on 110 volts, and I don't think that's enough to efficiently heat
4-5 gallons of stuff. What do you think?

I am leaning toward option 4, because, like natural gas, propane offers
instant infinite heat control, and because I assume I can buy something
that will put out a substantial amount of heat. Is anyone using something
like this for brewing? How's it working out? I already have a couple of
propane tanks, so that's one expenditure I won't have to make.

Thanks in advance for your expert advice.

Robert
----
Robert Stevahn
rstevahn@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com
From: silver.e@zooid.guild.org (Eric Silver)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing
Subject: Re: 2 Litre Plastic Bottles
Date: 24 Dec 92 02:59:23 GMT

From: ibiggs@fox.nstn.ns.ca (Kevin Crawford)
I asked;
>I use 2 L plastic bottles on a regular basis and haven't had a problem yet, 
>and I find that the carbonation that I receive from them is far better than 
>the carbonation that I get from 12 oz bottles.  Just make sure to use the 
>plastic caps (and you should purchase new ones).

>>2.) Is anyone aware of a bottle capper that uses screw on caps (obviously
>>new blanks) and if so, how much and where could it be obtained?
>
You asked;
>Do you mean twist off caps???

Not the metal twist off type that you could use a church key with, I mean
the metal threaded type found on new 2 liter (litre) bottles of pop.
But, I think you answered my question in your response. I wasn't aware
one could buy new 'plastic' threaded caps. I'll have to look aroud for
a supplier.
Thanks for the info.

Again, Merry Christmas all!

Eric Silver - York, Upper Canada.
"Legitimize dissent in Canada!"

Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing
From: bcronk@bnr.ca (Bryan Cronk)
Subject: Re: Xylitol info
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, BNR-RTP 
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 21:16:39 GMT

In article <1h57fpINNddb@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, djt2@po.CWRU.Edu (Dennis J. Templeton) writes:
|> 
|> In a previous article, joseph@joebloe.maple-shade.nj.us (Joseph Nathan Hall) says:
|> 
|> >
|> >In article <1992Dec20.022733.1912@news.columbia.edu> (rec.crafts.brewing), pcj1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Pierre Jelenc) writes:
|> >) >
|> >) >) Many of these same people claimed to prefer xylitol or
|> >) >) sorbitol too, but I *think* that both of these sugar/alcohols are not
|> >) >) metabolized by humans either, i.e. they could cause the same symptoms as
|> >) >) lactose in intolerant individuals.
|> >) >
|> >) >Doubt it.  Any doctors about?
|> >) >
|> >)  Not an MD but I'm pretty sure that sorbitol and xylitol cause intestinal
|> >) distress and diarrhea in moderate amounts. Small quantities as used in
|> >) chewing gum or cough drops are well tolerated.
|> >
|> >I suppose it was someone on the mead digest list who volunteered that
|> >he liked to use xylitol, but it was hard to find ... wonder if he
|> >is, er, regular ...
|> >
|> >Oh, well ...
|> >
|> >Can anyone quantify the amounts of sorbitol and xylitol it takes to
|> >produce these symptoms?
|> 
|> 
|> OK, OK,   I guess I started this mess, so here are some facts.
|> 
|> (BTW, I *am* an M.D, but was talking off the top of my head the first time.
|> 
|> From Stanbury, "The Inherited basis of Metaboloic Disease"  P 121 "Sorbitol, 
|> a sugar alcohol sometimes used as an ingredient in "diabetic" chocolate... 
|> is quantitatively converted to fructose by the liver and metabolized as
|> fructose."  This doesn't SAY that it is absorbed by the gut, but it sure
|> implies it, therefore sorbitol should be absorbed ok and not cause
|> diarrhoeaproblems.
|> 
......

I'm not an M.D. of any shape, but some anecdotal experience - My wife stopped
chewing sugar-free gum years ago (when most of them contained sorbitol and
not nutrisweet) because she became extremely flatulent and experienced
abdominal cramps if she chewed a whole pack in a short time span.  I've
never had problems with the stuff, but everyone is different.  If you use
it in beer, be prepared in case consumers of your brew are similarly sensitive.

Cheers and Happy Holidays,

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bryan Cronk   BNR, Inc., Research Triangle Park, NC   
(919) 991-7598 (W)   (919) 528-3375 (H)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: bcohen@cad721.intel.com (Benjamin Cohen )
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing
Subject: Re: mixing in carboy
Date: 30 Dec 92 20:47:48 GMT
Organization: Product Developement Technology, INTeL Corporation, Santa Clara, CA

In article <1992Dec30.172432.7014@newsgate.sps.mot.com>, birkelan@atelm.sps.mot.com (Joel Birkeland) writes:
|> Is there any reason that I cannot mix the sugar and fermented beer
|> in a glass carboy prior to bottling?  Everyone here tells me that 
|> I must use a food grade plastic bucket, but they don't know why, and
|> I would rather not buy one when I have a perfectly good carboy sitting
|> idle.
|> 
|> Joel Birkeland
|> birkelan@atelm.sps.mot.com

As long as it's sterilized and holds enough, use anything you have handy.  Most
people also use a bucket for their primary fermenter, mainly for the extra space
during the initial vigorous fermentation.  Just curious, what do you do your
primary in?

_____________________________________________________________________________
___                                         ___     ___ 
|  \             o               o         /   \   /   \      |)
|__/    _   _ __    __    _ _ __     _ __ |       |       __ _/ _   _   _ __
|   \  / \ / V | | /  \  / V V | |  / V | |       |      /  V |/ \ / \ / V |
|    ) \ / | | | |/|  |  | | | | |  | | | |     / |     /|  | |  | \ / | | |
|___/___X_/  | \_/ \__/\/  | | \_^_/  |  \ \___/o  \___/ \__/ |  \__X_/  | \_
                /|
               / |
               \ |
                \|
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Benjamin C. Cohen, RN4-39                               bcohen@scdt.intel.com
Intel Corporation                                              (408) 765-4977
2200 Mission College Blvd.
Santa Clara, CA
From: paisley@cme.nist.gov (Scotty Paisley)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing
Subject: Re: Propane Burners?
Date: 29 Dec 92 21:30:21 GMT
Organization: National Institute of Standards and Technology
In-reply-to: rstevahn@boi.hp.com's message of 23 Dec 92 17:43:00 GMT

In article <Bzq3vo.HtF@boi.hp.com> rstevahn@boi.hp.com (Robert Stevahn) writes:

> So, I am left with a few options. 1) Buy a new range (Not!); 2) Use a
> smaller vessel (Not!); 3) Buy a portable electic burner; or 4) Buy a 
> propane burner.

> I am unsure of option 3 because 1) I think that the portable burners I've
> seen are the size of a small stove burner, and I don't think that's enough
> surface area to efficiently heat 4-5 gallons of stuff, and 2) it will be

Well, I brew all my stuff outdoors on a propane campstove in a 4
gallon stainless steel pot.  My only complaint is that when it's cold
outside the propane doesn't like to stay a gas and my flame gets low.
This is solved by putting the small propane tank into warm water OR
buying a larger propane tank with an adaptor.  (like the kind on a
barbecue)  I'm this is less expensive than electric or at least
equivalent.  I bought my propane stove at a yard sale for $7 so that
made it worthwhile.  I would like to get a large one like in the
Brewhaus catalog or something like it..  (anyone got one for sale? :-)

Anyway, my point was that a small propane camp stove works just fine. 

-Scotty
From: kludge@grissom.larc.nasa.gov (Scott Dorsey)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing
Subject: Re: Bulging Brain...Should I Worry?
Date: 23 Dec 1992 14:15:24 GMT
Organization: NASA Langley Research Center and Reptile Farm
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: grissom.larc.nasa.gov

In article <Fw38VB1w165w@brewhau.bison.mb.ca> magus@brewhau.bison.mb.ca (James Copland) writes:
>andy rogers <rogers@ial3.jsc.nasa.gov> writes:
>
>> In article <9271@verdix.verdix.com> Mark Lundquist, mark@verdix.com writes:
>> >I have a brain that has been sitting around for a while and I noticed
>> >that it has a bulge at one end.
>> >
>> >Should I use it?  Will it make me ill?
>>
>> so long as you boil it for at least 20 minutes, you should be ok.
>
>But don't forget, it may make your brew taste musty 8-)

To prevent infection, make sure you clean your brain out with vodka.
--scott
From: brewer@meltdown.chi.il.us (Mike Wilson)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing
Subject: Re: Compuserve
Date: 23 Dec 92 09:21:27 CST
Organization: The Meltdown - A Team Star BBS

Thank you, Pierre Jelenc.  That sets my mind at ease about Compuserve.

Mike Wilson
brewer@meltdown.chi.il.us
From: joseph@joebloe.maple-shade.nj.us (Joseph Nathan Hall)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing
Subject: Re: Fermenting Cheaply
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 92 01:20:24 EDT
Organization: 5 Sigma Software
Reply-To: joseph@joebloe.maple-shade.nj.us
X-Mailer: uAccess - Macintosh Release: 1.5v5


In article <BzwsIs.3nx@oryx.com> (rec.crafts.brewing), xslkkk@oryx.com (kenneth k konvicka) writes:
) Tell me what would be wrong with the following -
)      I dissolve 50 lb sugar in 40 gal defunct but clean hot water heater.
)      Add 6 cans frozen grape juice and a few packets Fleischmanns yeast.
)      Allow to ferment at proper temp, excluding oxygen.  
)      Then bottle in 2 liter pop bottles.
) 
) Do you think the product would stand a chance of being palatable?  

No.

In a word, "Eeeeeyuuuuuuuu!"

) What precautions should I take?  

Don't drink the result!

) Am trying to get by cheaply.  

Then buy vodka in plastic bottles and add it to Hawaiian Punch.

) Any suggestions for an
) inexpensive primary fermentation vessel of 40-50 gal capacity?  The hot 
) water heater idea came from an imaginative contributor to this newsgroup.  Am just
) getting started.  Thanks.

Probably the simplest reasonably cheap strong PALATABLE fermented beverage you
can make is cyser.  For 1 gallon, take 1 can frozen apple juice concentrate
and 1 to 1-1/2 lb. pure clover honey.  Add a couple of quarts water,
boil briefly, top off with cold water and ferment using a package
of Champagne yeast.  Cost of ingredients for 1 gallon = about $4.
(Yes, there are much more dignified versions of this recipe, but I
doubt the poster wants them.)

The result will taste sort of like dry white table wine in a few weeks
to months.  Barring troubles, it will be MUCH more pleasing to
the palate than Gallo Chablis.

================O Fortuna, velut Luna, statu variabilis================
uunet!joebloe!joseph   (609) 273-8200 day   joseph%joebloe@uunet.uu.net
2102 Ryan's Run East        Rt 38 & 41             Maple Shade NJ 08052
Copyright 1992 by Joseph N. Hall.   Permission granted to copy and
redistribute freely over USENET and by email.  Commercial use prohibited.
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing
From: emeeks@unity.ncsu.edu (Edward Meeks)
Subject: Re: mixing in carboy
Organization: North Carolina State University Computing Center
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 20:33:32 GMT

In article <1992Dec30.172432.7014@newsgate.sps.mot.com> birkelan@atelm.sps.mot.com (Joel Birkeland) writes:
>Is there any reason that I cannot mix the sugar and fermented beer
>in a glass carboy prior to bottling?  Everyone here tells me that 
>I must use a food grade plastic bucket, but they don't know why, and
>I would rather not buy one when I have a perfectly good carboy sitting
>idle.
>
>Joel Birkeland
>birkelan@atelm.sps.mot.com
>

There are only three possible snags that I can think of, but you may be
able to handle these snags once they are anticipated..

1) Pouring hot priming solution into a relatively cool carboy may cause
the carboy to break from thermal shock. I'd make sure the priming
solution was well below boiling before I put it in an empty carboy.

2)Mixing the beer and priming solution may be a bit awkward. Sounds like
you'll need a long, slender paddle-type stirrer.

3)Siphoning the last bit of your primed beer from the carboy may be
awkward as well. That's the nice thing about having a priming bucket
with a spigot at the bottom--you get almost every bit of the beer.

Maybe you've thought of these, that's all my pea brain can think of.
'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`''`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`
Ed Meeks (emeeks@ncsu.edu)  "Won't you please tell the man I didn't hurt
anyone, I was just tryin' to have me some fun." --John Prine
'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`~~
From: jsawyer@crash.cts.com (John Sawyer)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing
Subject: Cider and Mead help
Date: 29 Dec 92 02:34:53 GMT
Distribution: rec.crafts.brewing
Organization: CTS Network Services (crash, ctsnet), El Cajon, CA


	Since I don't have the immediate cash to go book-buying I was wondering
if anyone out there woul have the time and patience (not to mention, the typing skills :-)  ) to assist me with a recipe or two for Cider and Mead.  I've had
gret success brewing simple (but tasty) ales, and would like to try my hand at
Mead (I understand it is simple...)  Any assistance and direction would be 
appreciated.  
	I remember a mailing list for Cider and Mead??  How Do I get on it?
 
	Thanks!!
	jsawyer@crash.cts.com
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing
From: ibiggs@fox.nstn.ns.ca (Kevin Crawford)
Subject: Re: Vodka found to be a pretty good tube clener
Organization: Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency (ACOA)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 15:04:00 GMT


I use vodka in the air lock of the carboy.  I've heard that you can use the 
sanitizer but IMHO i'd rather have a shot of vodka get into my batch of brew 
than a sanitizing agent.

It usually runs me about a pint of vodka per batch of beer (1 shot for the 
beer and the rest for me, heh heh)

Brew On,

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
|    Kevin Crawford     |  "I'd rather have a bottle in front of me       |
|(ibiggs@fox.nstn.ns.ca)| then a frontal lobotomy."                       |
|     Halifax, N.S.     |     -- Brian Mulroney (before the operation)    |
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing
From: david_ingham@qms1.life.uiuc.edu (David Ingham)
Subject: Re: Problem with first Lager
Followup-To: rec.crafts.brewing
Organization: UIUC
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 20:58:04 GMT



I missed the initial posting of this article.  So i did not see the
responses.  I am having the same problem.  Please Help Me!!!

																																											THANX!!!


In article <1992Dec18.191128.5732@island.COM>, guido@island.COM (Guido
Marx) wrote:
> 
> I am a new brewer - I have five batches of ales under my belt.  This
> week I decided to try my first lager (since it has now gotten cold
> enough).  I used the following recipie:
> 
> 5 lbs Dry malt extract
> 1 lb Crystal Malt 40 L
> 1.5 oz Northern Brewer hops 6.0 Alpha Acid
> Wyeast #2112 (California Lager)
> 
> and some yeast nutrient
> 
> This is the first time I have used liquid yeast.  On monday I
> popped the pouch in the bag.  By tuesday afternoon it had
> swollen so much I thought it might pop.  I then put the yeast
> into a 16 oz starter (4 tbsp. of DME boiled in 16 oz of water).
> I let that sit for another day, and it started fermenting vigorously.
> On wednesday evening I cooked up the beer and pitched the yeast.
> As of this morning (friday), I still am not seeing any noticeable signs of 
> fermentation (no krausen forming).  The beer is in my garage where the
> temperature varies between 50 - 55 F.  Is this a normal lag time for
> liquid yeast ?  All my previous batches of ale had vigorous signs of
> fermentation going within 6 hours of pitching.  Any suggestions
> on what I can do to get this going ?  I am starting to worry and
> I am at work so I can't have a homebrew ;*)  Should I bring the
> fermenter inside until the fermentation gets going ?  I think that
> if I don't see any fermentation going by tomorrow I am going to 
> pitch in some dry lager yeast.
> 
> Guido
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing
From: danp@sabre.bellcore.com (Daniel Pomplun)
Subject: Re: Cider and Mead help
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Distribution: rec.crafts.brewing
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 92 13:42:55 GMT


Send articles for submission to the digest to mead-lovers@nsa.hp.com
Send digest addition or removal requests to mead-lovers-request@nsa.hp.com


Daniel Pomplun, Bellcore, danp@sabre.bellcore.com
Phone:  (908) 758-2740  Fax: (908) 758-4268
331 Newman Springs Rd, Red Bank, NJ 07701-7020,  MS: NVC-1E246
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing
From: fortner@hal.eng.ufl.edu (Dave Fortner)
Subject: Re: Bitching about mail-order!!
Organization: University of Florida
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 15:25:18 GMT

>>In article <9269@verdix.verdix.com> mark@verdix.com (Mark Lundquist) writes:
>>>In article <1992Dec19.210113.2997@galileo.cc.rochester.edu>

My local brew shop does a lot of mail order buisness. Thier name and address
are:

	Jann's Place
	2303 N. U.S. #1
	Ft. Pierce, FL
	Phone (407) 465-5950

I always go to thier shop so I can't atest to thier mail order service.
In person they are very friendly (they got me to start brewing) and
they even give all of thier customers thier home phone # if you have
any problems at night. Once they forgot to put a "boiling bag" in the 
box with my other purchases (35 cent item), that night after the shop
closed they delivered it to my house which is about 15 miles out of
thier way. It is very difficult to find that kind of service anymore
and I highly recommend them as a fair and reputable buisness.

Dave Fortner
Fortner-D@3mail.ksc.nasa.gov

Disclaimer: I AIN'T RESPONSIBLE FOR NOTHIN'
From: frampton@skitzo.dseg.ti.com
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing
Subject: Re: water and carboys
Date: 23 Dec 92 19:34:35 GMT
Organization: Texas Instruments Component Test Facility

In article <1992Dec21.225229.15839@i88.isc.com>, jeq@i88.isc.com (Jonathan E. Quist) writes:
> to be unscathed.  (I'm checking it carefully before I decide this for
> certain.)  Since I was in the middle of entertaining, and since
> the break was in an enclosed area where pets and kids can't get to it, I
> left it.  The following afternoon, I decided to clean up a bit.
> Well, the beer either evaporated or found a hole in the floor, because
> it was gone.  

  Do you have a dog? :-)

  How many time will those of you use a bottle before you start
  to worry about stress and strain?  Or is that not a worry?

Framp..