HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 08:41:12 CDT
From:         Tom Brewer <NOTTMB@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Confused Catholicism

ERIC, ERIC, ERIC:

You write to Jesse:
> God demands that we be cleansed and purified of all sin and
> unrighteousness.  The only way that we can be cleansed is by the
> sacrifice of Christ through His blood, not by our own works.  Through
> the blood of Christ, our sins are removed, cleansed, blotted out, so
> that we are really and truly righteous in God's eyes.  Then we may enter
> the presence of God in heaven.
>
> This cleansing comes through saving faith in Jesus and repentance.
> Without repentance there is no forgiveness of sins; without forgivness
> of sins, there is only condemnation.

Which is it? Christ's blood or baptism? First you say baptism washes away sin.
Now you say Christ's blood removes sin. And then you say "we are really and
truly righteous in God's eyes"!!!! Good Grief Charlie Brown! Are you now
becoming a Protestant? That means sanctification is by grace. Surely you
don't mean that. And what about the Pope, bishops and priests who alone can
forgive sins?

"The greatest and most ancient Church known to God's people, founded and
organized by the Father, Son and Holy Spirit at Jerusalem and spread to the
hearts of believers everywhere, that Church which has the Word of God and
faith which comes down to the elect after having been announced to men by
the Prophets and Apostles. For with this Church, because of her divine
origin, all men must agree ... and it is in her that the elect everywhere
have maintained the Gospel of Jesus Christ."
    ---St. Thomas, Against Catholicism, c. 1992 A.D.

Tom Brewer
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Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 15:55:48 -0400
From:         Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re>Clement & Sola Scriptura

Leo,

Indeed you will always find the Catholic Church, in its dogmatic
pronouncements, quoting Scripture as a primary source.

Yet St. Irenaeus, St. Ignatius, and St. Clement did not have the problem
then that we have now, namely, many people arguing heretical positions
from Scripture.  Unfortunately, Scripture cannot always be convincing
evidence that a particular doctrine is true: people often misinterpret
Scripture, as St. Irenaeus mentioned, and in doing so make themselves
better than the elders and reject apostolic tradition.

As the church grew it was necessary not only to prove doctrines from
Scripture, but prove the correct interpretation of Scripture through
showing what the church always believed.  This was not as necessary
early on, because first of all, the memories of the Apostles were fresh
in their minds and only the most corrupt would claim they taught
anything differently.  Hence there was little need to quote anyone else,
and even if there was, there were few people to quote -- not everyone
knew about everyone else in those days.

While you may not find people quoting earlier Fathers, you do find them
appealing to the church, saying, "We have never believed this, this idea
is preposterous" and "Such an idea is contrary to the faith we have
received through the succession of bishops."  The idea is to maintain
continuity of teaching -- not to urge people to reject Tradition, read
Scripture for themselves and come up with their own theology.

Eric
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Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 15:08:00 EST
From:         "DRCV06::GRAHAM" <GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL>
Subject:      Christians and dying.

In John 11, we read of Jesus coming to Bethany after Lazarus' death.  He is
met by Martha and, among other things, says to her, "If a man believes in
me, he shall never die, do you believe this?"  Wait a minute!  Before you
spiritualize it away, think about it.  Could it be that this is the truth
about Christians, and nobody has ever believed it?  No, I don't think so,
either, but it is som ething to think about.

Dan Graham
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 1 Oct 1992 09:03:00 EDT
From:         "Carl A. Lahetta" <U952020@RUTADMIN.BITNET>
Subject:      Freedom of Speech & Religion Denied in Texas

   It seems as if during the Republican Convention in Houston that people
were jailed for praying, preaching, and/or signing in a "Religious Free Zone."
This zone was set at 100 ft. around an abortion clinic, and there was only
a prohibition against *religous* speech.  To make matter worse, the judge that
established the zone received $3,000 in campaign contributions from either
Planned Parenthood, or N.O.W.
   Some Christians were jailed for praying and singing.  Their lawyers got an
injunction and the prisoners were released.  In court, NOW and PP argument was
that the Christians were engaging in "political protest."  To clarify the
matter at hand the lawyers for the Christians read the court record from the
sentencing to remind the court why the people were prisoned.  They were
prisoned for singing and praying on a public sidewalk.  The NOW and PP
lawyers conceeded that the reading was correct.
   It seems as if NOW and Planned Parenthood is against religious speech
and is trying to get it off the streets and keep it in the church.  And
this is denying Christians their right to freedom of speech and religion.

Carl----------+
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Sat, 26 Sep 1992 00:35:55 EDT
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      Bible prayer for the dead

It has been asked whether there is anything in the New Testament to
support the idea of prayer for the dead. Consider 2 Timothy 1:16-18
(RSV):

 + May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for
 + he often refreshed me; he was not ashamed of my chains, but
 + when he arrived in Rome he searched for me eagerly and found me
 + -- may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that
 + Day -- and you well know all the service he rendered at
 + Ephesus.

It will doubtless be replied that Paul does not say in so many words
that Onesiphorus is dead. But what are the alternatives?  Paul does
not simply ask God to bless the family of Onesiphorus, and the man
himself. He speaks of mercy, which suggests that they are in some
kind of trouble or distress or danger.  If Onesiphorus is ill, or
arrested and facing martyrdom, why does Paul offer no prayer,
express no hope, for his recovery or acquittal, as the case may be?
If Onesiphorus is merely out of town, on a journey, or otherwise
separated from his family, so that their distress is simply that
they miss him, Paul's language seems a bit excessive. Surely there
were many families in the congregation at Ephesus who had some
members out of town on business. It seems to me beyond reasonable
doubt that Onesiphorus is dead, and that Paul is praying that God
will comfort his family in their bereavement, and will have mercy on
the soul of the dead man.

 Yours,
 James Kiefer
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Original_To:  CHRISTIA
Original_cc:  HUTTER
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 1 Oct 1992 09:38:00 N
From:         Wolfgang Hutter <HUTTER@DULRUU51.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Confused Catholicism

In a message of Wed, 30 Sep 1992 16:44:43 GMT
Received on Wed, 30 Sep 92 17:53 N
(Tim Rolfe) <rolfe@DSUVAX.DSU.EDU> wrote:

> If the penitent has "perfect contrition" the sins are forgiven, even though
> the penitent is obligated to include them the next time the penitent
> receives the sacrament of Penance.  If the penitent has "imperfect
> contrition" the sins are forgiven by God through the instrumentality of
> God's ordained minister in the sacrament of Penance.

I'm giving up. I'm tired. I don't know if I will find the right words to
express what I feel, but I have to express myself.

Each time I read a post like the one above my heart is deeply grieved.
Maybe I am too stupid for this theology or maybe I just don't want to
hear a Gospel that is not straightforward and simple, but I just can't
take these casualistic explanations anymore.

If you are perfectly contrite you are forgiven instantaneously.
If you are imperfectly contrite you are forgiven through some act by a
priest.
If you are culpably ignorant...
If you are inculpably ignorant...
If you...unless..
Unless you...but if...

This is no flame. This is just my impression. I know this will hurt some
of you Catholic sisters and brothers. But please don't take offense. But
it seems to me the longer I read these explanations that the RCC has
developed some teachings over the centuries that are not what God thinks
about it, but as it can (by definition) not admit that it has been in
error some clever theologians devise exceptions and explanations over
and over again until the jungle is so thick that no one who tries to
touch the crucial point comes that far because he gets stuck in the weed
of rules and exceptions. Someone just today complained about the sheer
impossibility to get a correct interpretation of RC doctrine because
everytime a source is cited that displays the sore point this source is
disqualified as 'not authoritative'.

I give it up. I tried to understand the RC doctrines. I will never. I
have learned over the years that there are indeed pious, humble and
reborn RC Christians who want to follow our Lord. I will not deny that.
And I respect every RC believer on this list for what he/she is. But I
am convinced more than ever before that the tradition that the RCC
clings to is not correct. Sorry.

I have decided to refrain from taking part in any further discussions
concerning Catholicism. I am, however, open for personal admonition.

In Christ
Wolfgang <><
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 16:56:20 -0400
From:         Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: Right Standing with God?

Excerpts from christia: 30-Sep-92 Re: Right Standing with God? Jesse
Carnes@LSUVM.BITNE (213)

> Dear Eric;

> Geesum, Mowsum, Grayzum man ... just PICK one because ONLY ONE is the
> correct answer.

I disagree!  The question to me sounds like some of the questions the
Pharisees asked Jesus to trap him . . .
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 1 Oct 1992 07:41:53 EDT
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: CHOOSING Christ as dead men

Jesse,

God judges us by our hearts.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.spssx-l
From: crpresto@RS6000.CMP.ILSTU.EDU ((Charlie Preston))
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.spssx-l
Subject: User Exchange
Date: 2 Oct 92 15:50:21 GMT
Reply-To: "(Charlie Preston)" <crpresto@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu>
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Comments: To: SPSSX-L@uga.cc.uga.edu

Is there any inforomation available about the next User Exchange in Chicago?

Chas
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Return-Path: <chermesh@bgumail.bgu.ac.il>
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Date:         Sun, 27 Sep 1992 10:46:37 WET
Reply-To:     "(Ran Chermesh)" <chermesh@BGUMAIL.BGU.AC.IL>
From:         "(Ran Chermesh)" <chermesh@BGUMAIL.BGU.AC.IL>
Subject:      Re: Is there a bug in temporary variables?
Comments: To: KLASSEN%UVVM.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu
Comments: cc: SPSSX-L@uga.cc.uga.edu
              25, 92 4:16 pm

Melvyn,
Your reply may be the complete answer for the 3rd edition of SPSS-X. The
4th edition, however, includes a somewhat different phrasing of the same
paragraph. Page 13 of the SPSS Reference Guide, 4th edition states:

      *Scratch variables are initialized to 0 for numeric variables or
       blank for string variables for the first case and are left accross
       cases with the LEAVE command.

The way I read it, ONLY through the use of LEAVE can it be accumulated
accross cases. Only if you happen to check information on LEAVE, you find
the following specification:
       LEAVE can be used only with standard disctionary (permanent)
       variables. For information on using scratch variables, see
       Universals: Scratch Variables. Scratch variables are not
       reintialized each time a new case is read, but they are not
       saved on the active system file and therefore cannot be used in
       procedures. (p. 306).

LEAVE, therefore CANNOT be used for scratch variables. To sum up, you're
perfectly right. Still, the manual is very unclear about this issue.

> > "(Ran Chermesh)" <CHERMESH@BGUMAIL.BITNET> says:
> > I wonder if I didn't encounter a bug in the way SPSS deals with scratch
> > variables.  ... [deleted] ...  For some reason, the (scratch variable)
> > "#le" acts as though it's a lagged variable, carrying the value of the
> >former observation.
>
> Page 135 of "SPSS-X(tm) User's Guide, 3rd Edition" states:
>
>     * scratch variables are initialized to zero for numeric variables
>       or blank for string variables for the first case,
>       and are "left" across cases (see Section 7.40).
>
> This simplifies the user's coding, i.e.,
>
>   COMMENT Create a running-total in a "scratch" variable.
>   COMPUTE #ACCUM = #ACCUM + ITEM
>
> See?  No worries about "first-time" initializing of the variable,
> and no need for a 'LEAVE' statement for the variable.
>


--
Ran Chermesh                                  E - M A I L
Behavioral Sciences Dept.                     ===========
Ben-Gurion University                  Internet: CHERMESH@BGUVM.BGU.AC.IL
Beer-Sheva 84105                                 CHERMESH@BGUMAIL.BGU.AC.IL
Israel                                 Bitnet  : CHERMESH@BGUVM.BITNET

Phone: 972-57-472-057                  Fax: 972-57-32-766
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.spssx-l
Date:         Sun, 4 Oct 1992 11:43:00 CDT
Reply-To:     RA05477@SWTEXAS.BITNET
From:         RA05477@SWTEXAS.BITNET
Subject:      questions on discriminate analysis

I would like information on the commands to use to run a discriminate analysis.
All my varibales are in nominal form.  I want to predict recyclers and
nonrecyclers.

If anyone has information that would be helpful to a novice I would appreciate
it.
My e-mail address is RA05477@swtex.bitnet


Thanks
Ron
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.spssx-l
Date:         Fri, 2 Oct 1992 13:37:31 EDT
Reply-To:     "Necia A. Black" <BLACK@UBVM.BITNET>
From:         "Necia A. Black" <BLACK@UBVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Answers to IF inside DO REPEAT

Thank you to Melvin Klassen, Susan Wilcox, someone at NTU who didn't sign
their name, and SPSS Tech Support for helping with my comparisons problem
of computed decimal values to set values, in order to create new scores.

I was caught up in the rounding done on base 2 machine so matches weren't
really there.  I ended up multiplying the variable by 100, truncating that
value, and making my comparisons on the integer.  Didn't exactly work, due to
rounding so I added 1 to the original value and then had to RECODE values at
the quartiles because then they didn't come out right.

Whole thing was annoying, but it's done and it works!

ADD FILES FILE=MALETRMT/FILE=MALECTRL
COMPUTE FEM=MEAN(BEM2,BEM5,BEM8,BEM11,BEM14,BEM17,BEM20,BEM23,BEM26,
               BEM29,BEM32,BEM35,BEM38,BEM41,BEM44,BEM47,BEM50,BEM53,
               BEM56,BEM59)
COMPUTE MASC=MEAN(BEM1,BEM4,BEM7,BEM10,BEM13,BEM16,BEM19,BEM22,
               BEM25,BEM28,BEM31,BEM34,BEM37,BEM40,BEM43,BEM46,BEM49,
               BEM52,BEM55,BEM58)

COMPUTE RAWFEM=(TRUNC(FEM*100)) + 1
COMPUTE RAWMASC=(TRUNC(MASC*100)) + 1

RECODE  RAWFEM(364=365)(369=370)(426=425)(464=465)(476=475)(501=500)
        (526=525)(551=550)(576=575)(601=600)(626=625)(ELSE=COPY)
RECODE  RAWMASC(426=425)(451=450)(501=500)(526=525)(548=550)(551=550)
        (576=575)(601=600)(611=610)(626=625)(651=650)(653=650)(658=660)
        (ELSE=COPY)
FORMATS RAWFEM RAWMASC (F4.1) MASC FEM(F4.2)
DO REPEAT  X= -15 -14 -13 -12 -11 -11 -10 -9 -8 -7 -6 -5 -5 -4 -3 -2 -1 0

                         lines deleted

            71 72 73 73 74 75 76 77 78 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 84 85 86 87
         /Y=100 105 110 115 120 125 130 135 140 145 150 155

                         lines deleted

            660 665 670 675 680 685 690 695 700
IF (RAWFEM EQ Y)FEMSS=X
END REPEAT PRINT

Susan pointed out that a RECODE of all the values would have been more
efficient processing, and I will keep that in mind for next time.  It's
Friday afternoon, so right now "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

Thanks to all who replied.  The weather is suppose to be gorgeous this
weekend, so now I will be able to enjoy it.
Cheers,

Necia A. Black, RN, Ph.D.      Bitnet:    BLACK@UBVM
231 Computing Center           Internet:  BLACK@UBVM.CC.Buffalo.EDU
SUNY-BUFFALO                   FAX:       (716) 645-3081
Buffalo, New York 14260        Phone:     (716) 645-3572
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.spssx-l
Date:         Thu, 1 Oct 1992 17:17:17 PDT
Reply-To:     Melvin Klassen <KLASSEN@UVVM.BITNET>
Comments:     Warning -- original Sender: tag was NETNEWS@UVVM.UVIC.CA
From:         Melvin Klassen <KLASSEN@UVVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Using IF inside DO REPEAT problem

"Necia A. Black" <BLACK@UBVM> writes:
>I have created two variables, FEM and MASC, using the MEAN fxn over 20
>variables each.  This value will be from 1 to 7 in increments of .05.

To solve your problem, use the 'SUM' function instead of the 'MEAN'
function.  The sum of the integer-valued numbers will be an integer,
whereas the mean of the same numbers will have a non-zero fraction,
and the division by N will introduce some round-off error.
(You'll also have to rewrite the DO-REPEAT statement, to reflect the new
values, i.e., algebraically twenty times bigger than the original values.)

Note that the number '0.05' is easily-representable in base-10 arithmetic,
but any computer which uses base-2 arithmetic will **not** be able to
store this number, without introducing round-off errors.  Try:
   COMPUTE X=0.05
   COMPUTE Y=X*20
   COMPUTE Z=(1.0-Y)* 2**53
Algebraically, the value of 'Z' will be zero,
but you'll get a non-zero result!

>Problem is when I ask that IF (var eq x.xx)newvar = (+ or -)xx,
>I get no value for the newvar.

If you don't rewrite to use "twenty-times-x.xx", you could try:
               IF  (ABS(VAR-x.xx) LT 0.01) NEWVAR == ...
to compensate for the round-off error.

>Thinking that it couldn't make a comparison, due to significant digits
>past the second decimal value, I transformed the values to 2 significant
>digits (I thought) by doing the following before doing the comparisons
>within the DO REPEAT:
>        COMPUTE RAWFEM=(TRUNC(FEM*100)+1)*.01

Multiplying by '0.01' re-introduces a round-off error.

>When I set the formats at F17.15, just to see all significant digits,
>I see nothing but 0  beyond the second decimal value.

The SPSS "Fmm.nn" format is defined to perform rounding, e.g.,
if you print '1.49' using 'F4.1' format, you'll see "1.5", not "1.4".
Similarly, printing '1.099999999999999' using 'F17.15'
format will display '1.100000000000000', even though
the value is not algebraically equal to '1.1'.
From: com045@ABERDEEN.AC.UK
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.spssx-l
Subject: Book - 'SPSS/PC+ made Simple'
Date: 2 Oct 92 15:18:19 GMT
Reply-To: com045@ABERDEEN.AC.UK
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Via: uk.ac.aberdeen; Fri, 2 Oct 1992 16:17:30 +0100
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Comments: To: "(SPSS conference in USA)" <spssx-l@ohstvma.acs.ohio-state.edu>

Two lecturers  in  the  Psychology  department  here  at  Aberdeen  University
(Scotland) have produced this book based on their  undergraduate  course -  it
gives a good basic introduction to SPSS/PC+ for the first 5 chapters and  then
explains in detail further procedures in detail.  It is quite well written and
reasonably priced at 7.95 pounds (sterling) and $14.95 (US dollars).

It is published by Lawrence Erlbaum Associates
                    27, Church Road,
                     HOVE,
                      East Sussex,
                       BN 3 2FA
                       England

Disclaimer: I have NO financial interest in this book - I just proof read it
endless times and it has saved me a lot of heartache teaching novice users.!

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

         /|                    Email   :
        / |     |)                     : j.s.lemon@aberdeen.ac.uk
       (  |_____|)   _            JANET: j.s.lemon@uk.ac.aberdeen
        / | (_) | )_| )            UUCP: j.s.lemon%aberdeen.ac.uk@ukc.uucp
       (  |
        \ |             John
         \|               S.
                         Lemon
                                        National:
    Aberdeen University                      Tel: 0224 273350
     Computing Centre                        Fax: 0224 273372
      Edward Wright Building
       Dunbar Street                    International:
        ABERDEEN   AB 9 2TY                       Tel: +44 224 273350
         Scotland                                 Fax: +44 224 273372

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.spssx-l
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.spssx-l
Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 13:19:18 CST
Reply-To:     GR3461@SIUCVMB.BITNET
From:         GR3461@SIUCVMB.BITNET
Subject:      How to Handle Long String Var?

I have a question, which may not be hard to do, but hard to explain. Let
me try my best.

I need to input several character var. Each of them is about 40 characters
long. For example: one is to code school name, another is to code answers to
an open question. It is all right from manual to code NAME (A40) and ANSWER
(A40), but would not run on version 4.1. Listing says: this facility cannot
read a string var. longer than 8 character, only first 8 characters will be
read.

In order to solve the problem, I seperate, for instance, NAME into NAME1 to
NAME6, so each of them need to code 8 charaters only. There are some problems
left:
1) How should I handle those words longer than 8 characters.
  example:  I put Southern Illinois Universi ty
I want to output looks like: Southern Illinois University, how can I get
rid of blank between si and ty

2) How to deal with var. not used. In above example, it tooks 4 var. Name5
and name6 will be useless, are there anyway I don't need to put anything
there with free format input method?

3), If I use fix format, how can I get rid of blank between 2 short words
such as IT IS?

The whole point is that I want to input a long sentence, and I want the output
looks like a perfect sentence.

In SAS, INPUT Statement can rearrange variables quite well, are there anything
close to,  or better than that in SPSS?

I am using SPSS4.1 on CMS, I can use either fix format or free format although
I prefer FREE.

Any suggestion will be greatly appreciated!

Wang, Qin
Southern Illinois University
Southern Illinois Universi ty
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