HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: onlit@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Drew)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african,soc.culture.filipino,soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.hongkong,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.vietnamese
Subject: Re: [SOC] Group beating death of a young college student because of racial difference
Keywords: Group beating death of a young college student because of racial difference
Date: 7 Sep 92 00:51:17 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.african
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX

In article <1992Sep4.163456.14276@mailer.cc.fsu.edu> nguyen@enbp.fsu.edu (Lucy Nguyen) writes:
>...  
>I object. These guys were not college students, they were high school dropouts.
>My cousin went to another high school in Coral Springs, and she knew of this 
>group of people. They were always bad, and would abuse anyone. Most of the
>Americans knew enough to avoid any response to their provocations.(Perhaps I
>should say they were afraid enough, and knew of the groups reputation). It's
>unfortunate that Luyen was the one who didn't know about their rep. Those people
>are scum and don't care about anyone but themselves. They were a disaster waiting
>to happen, but you guys wouldn't have cared much had it been an american beaten to
>death.

I care because it involves racial tensions.  Racial problems in the US is a 
common place.  Many of them are merely based on ungrounded hatred.  It is very
sad for this so-called "melting pot."  By the same token, I care about the 
Rodney King incident.  I don't deny it has something to do with me as an Asian
-- a minority. 

If the one who was beaten to death were an American, I would look at this 
incident from a different angle.  I care about those were beaten up for no
reason during the LA riot regardless of their skin color.  

Andrew 
-- 
+-----------   @}-'--   -----------+  "To Serve, To Strive and Not to Yield"
|      Lee, On-Lit Andrew          |               - Motto of Outward Bound 
|                                  | 
|  email: onlit@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu |  "Your disability is your opportunity"
|  University of Texas at Austin   |               - Kurt Hahn,  
+----------------------------------+                 Founder of Outward Bound 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: gavan@elc.mth.uct.ac.za (Gavan Tredoux)
Subject: Re: Bisho Massacre
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 11:41:04 GMT
Organization: University of Cape Town
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

poam@giraffe.ru.ac.za (AK MARQUARD) writes:
: From several eyewitnesses which I know who were at Bisho at the time (one of 
: whom was hit by a bullet), it would seem that Chris Brenner's story is 100%
: accurate, as is his info on the Ciskei Defence Force. It did NOT contradict 
: press reports, but did contradict Gqozo's statement (as did journalists, 
: local and international who were shot at) and some of the coverage on the 
: SABC - what exactly does "Gavan" mean when he says "can be spotted a mile 
: away"? I can't imagine. 

It's common cause that the ANC were warned beforehand that conflict
was likely, they ignored all warnings. Common cause that the magisterial
order was deliberately broken by Kasrils, in a pre-planned move, and
that this led to the shooting. Note that the DP in the region have
condemned Kasrils action. None of this could be confirmed nor denied
by the eyewitnesses you mentioned, who would only have seen the shooting,
not been aware of the magisterial order, not have known who or what
Ronnie Kasrils is, precisely, whether the sprint was planned or not,
and so on. In a word, their testimony would be irrelevant.

: I find it odd that this erstwhile "champion" of 
: free and accurate speech should be so quick to write off sucha 
: comprehensive report without even an acurate reading of wither the report 
: or the press coverage. This seems to be a tendency at UCT, or is it just 
: confined to the maths and philosophy departments? Does "Gavan" think 
: that everyone who was there except Gqoza (who was only there for a few 
: minutes after the event) is lying, in a mass conspiracy? Who knows?

*You* clearly don't. Brenner is quite welcome to publish/spread as much
crap as he feels like, in fact I welcome him doing so if only because
that might stimulate debate, and that is the spirit in which I have reposted
stuff of his in the past, all of which I disagreed with strongly. Nobody
mentioned any conspiracies, I haven't taken anything Gqoza said seriously
either. Just pointed out JOINT responsibility for this massacre, implicating
BOTH the Ciskei trigger-happy mercenaries AND the ANC, who are now seeking out
massacres as part of their political strategy.

I note that even Van Zyl Slabbert is now raising questions about the SACP
input on Mass Action.

Gavan Tredoux
UCT
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african

In soc.culture.african, Steve.Hayes@p5.f22.n7101.z5.fidonet.org (Steve Hayes) writes:

> On <03 Sep 1992 20:45> Mpthirus said to All :
>  M>country. Police said they were calm during the hijack and were 
>  M>violent.
>  M>        ``The striking thing was the appalling poverty of the plane, the
>  M>baggage and the plastic bags full of flour and lentils, the dirt and the
>  M>precarious condition of the flight instruments,'' one official 
>  M>said.
> 
> That's very interesting. I thought one of the things that provided Ethiopia 
> with income was aircraft maintenance - a lot of neighbouring countries (and 
> even some from quite far away) used to send their aircraft to Ethiopia for 
> repairs. Does that mean that the aircraft maintenance industry in Ethiopia 
> has collapsed? Or is it just the result of the hijack?
> 
You are right. Ethiopian Airlines does a lot of business as one of the largest
and most efficient airlines from Africa. They also provide training to many 
third world countries.

It is unfortunate that these hijackings are occuring. The main reason is the
transitional government has a hands off policy against Eth. Airlines, on the
assumption that they can be trusted. This is rightly so, since they were also
semi-independent even under the previous military government of Menguistu
Hailermariam. Unfortunately, some internal personnel are abusing this 
privilage. There might even be some high placed bureaucrats in the EAL who 
don't mind this happening or even encourage this to happen.

I am almost sure the transitonal government will clamp on this, including
may be scrutinizing EAL's internal security to ensure this does not happen
again. How fast they do this is anyone's guess.  

It is one of the prices that Ethiopia is paying for being a more freer and
democratic country than ever before.
From: barrett@daisy.ee.und.ac.za (Alan P Barrett)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Re: Exclusivity of "Die Stem"
Date: 9 Sep 1992 07:53:14 GMT
Organization: Univ. Natal, Durban, S. Africa
NNTP-Posting-Host: daisy.ee.und.ac.za

In article <BuArEF.JIy@casper.cs.uct.ac.za>,
gds@cs.uct.ac.za writes:
> The simple point I was trying to make is that, if one only look at
> the words without regarding the emotions and history that comes with
> Die Stem, then Die Stem in its official English translation is not as
> exclusive white Afrikaner as people make it out to be.

I agree.  However, it is difficult to ignore the emotions and history.

OA> official Afrikaans version
OE> official English version
rs> my [Riel Smit's] direct translation of the Afrikaans (here and there
    the word order was changed to render better English)

[...]

OA> Waar en trou as Afrikaners - kinders van Suid-Afrika.
OE> Our enduring love and service to thy honour and thy name.
rs> True and faithful as Afrikaners - children of South Africa.

Translating the afrikaans word ``Afrikaners'' to the english word
``Africans'' would be at least as valid as translating it to the english
word ``Afrikaners'', especially if one were looking only at the words
while ignoring the emotions and history.

--apb
Alan Barrett, Dept. of Electronic Eng., Univ. of Natal, Durban, South Africa
RFC822: barrett@ee.und.ac.za             Bang: m2xenix!quagga!undeed!barrett
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: saitowit@underdog.ee.wits.ac.za (SAITOWITZ L S)
Subject: South Africa: Where to now?
Organization: Wits Electrical Engineering (Undergrads).
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 11:48:31 GMT

Hi,

I would be very interested to here, from across the board peoples views of 
were South Africa is going, what you see for the future. Those in the know, 
if you could state the views of the various political parties on their 
social, health, educational, economic etc... policies. If and when there are 
elections what are your predictions for the outcome? 

Lastly if there are any lurkers out there who read but don't write, get 
involved. I'd like to here from as wide a field as possible.

Thanks 
Lesley :)
Saitowit@underdog.ee.wits.ac.za
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: phjj@ruchem.ru.ac.za (Justin Jonas)
Subject: Re: Bisho Massacre
Reply-To: phjj@ruchem.ru.ac.za
Organization: Rhodes University, Grahamstown, SA
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 20:21:06 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.170325.682@ucthpx.uct.ac.za>, gavan@elc.mth.uct.ac.za (Gavan Tredoux) writes:
>[ Article reposted from apc.reg.safrica ]
>[ Author was sapp@igc.org ]
>[ Posted on Tue,  8 Sep 92 16:50:00 +0200 ]
>
>WARNING: what follows should be read with caution, preferably
>in good company, in a safe warm place. Hopefully it'll stimulate
>debate, for it certainly *misinforms* rather than informs
>

article by Chris Benner deleted


Gavan, is of course, an authority on the situation in Ciskei, living in
nearby Cape Town.  He presumably gets his account of the massacre from
the TV news, or perhaps he has a hotline to Gqozo himself.  I personally
know that Chris has spent a good deal of time in the Ciskei region and
is well aquainted with the situation there.  

Again I disassociate Rhodes University from the above.


====================================================~~~~~*~~~~~~~~~~~*~~~~~~~~~
    Justin Jonas        Radio Astronomy Group,                      /V\
  _____       __    __  Dept. Physics & Electronics,         \    /     \    /
 /____/ \    /_/|  /_/| Rhodes University,                     \/   |v|   \/
|  __ \ /|  | | | | | | Grahamstown 6140, South Africa           \__|#|__/  26m
| |__) |/   | | | | | | Internet: phjj@ruchem.ru.ac.za    HartRAO   /X\    dish
|  ___ \ \  | \_\/  | |           phjj@hippo.ru.ac.za             /\/|\/\
|_|/  \__\/  \___/|_|/      Tel: +27(461)22023 ext 452      ____/\/__|__\/\____
Xref: sparky soc.culture.african:4809 soc.culture.filipino:3319 soc.culture.taiwan:13438 soc.culture.hongkong:10796 soc.culture.indian:31274 soc.culture.vietnamese:13674 soc.culture.china:25649
From: Jim Rosenfield <jnr@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Date: 07 Sep 92 10:32 PDT
Subject: Re: NCR:Using Peacenet to help Somalia
Nf-ID: #R:cdp:1471700095:cdp:1471700104:000:340
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!jnr    Sep  7 10:32:00 1992


Transform the ego-trip by using your story to inspire others, also
gather any shreds of credibility you can to enhance the power of your
work -- give others plenty of reason to listen to you.  If you can do this,
then you won;t be distracted from your work by the compliments, but
you can be empowered by them.  Keep it up.  Don't give up.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: gavan@elc.mth.uct.ac.za (Gavan Tredoux)
Subject: Re: UPI: Ciskei troops kill fifteen as ANC marches on Ciskei capital
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 92 21:23:46 GMT
Organization: University of Cape Town
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

Steve.Hayes@p5.f22.n7101.z5.fidonet.org (Steve Hayes) writes:
: On <10 Sep 1992 20:51> Gavan Tredoux said to All :
: 
:  GT>There isn't any parallel, merely because people are out in the streets
:  GT>in both cases. The European situation was largely spontaneous, it wasn't
:  GT>organized by a insurgent organization with a history of armed struggle
:  GT>and "people's war". One striking difference: in Europe the communists
:  GT>were the target of the protests, here they lead them. Notice Ronnie 
:  GT>Kasrils' admission that his Olympic sprint was planned, in defiance of
:  GT>a magisterial order.
: 
: You seem to be saying that it's ok for dictators to shoot at people, as long 
: as they are shooting at communists.

No I'm not. It is NOT ok to shoot at people, and the shooting was NOT
justified. I was merely concerned to point out that comparisons of Mass
Action here with demos in former east-bloc countries are romantic
nonsense, primarily because the people involved in the events here
have different motives, different modus operandi, different history
and different context. The results are thus different, and rather nasty.

This is a lot more like Yugoslavia (by whatever name) than anything else,
in which all sides have dictators, realised and potential.

Gavan Tredoux
UCT

Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: tsoyode@nyx.cs.du.edu (Tola Soyode)
Subject: Anthems
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix (sponsored by U. of Denver Math/CS dept.)
Disclaimer1: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University of
Disclaimer2: Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
Disclaimer3: control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 92 19:30:06 GMT

Nkosi is not only poentially the new South African anthem.
It is already viewed as the anthem for all of Africa by me
and many other African!!

Tola


Tola Soyode - tsoyode@nyx.cs.du.edu
              tola@cix.compulink.co.uk
              tolas@microsoft.com


Newsgroups: soc.culture.african,sanet.talk.politics,apc.reg.safrica
From: lkk@panix.com (Larry Kolodney)
Subject: Re: The ANC and the SACP
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 01:58:57 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix, NYC

In <Btz5tq.GB5@news.cso.uiuc.edu> vamg6792@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Mpthirus) writes:

>>>Used to. Many Jews that in the old days supported the goals of the ANC
                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>are now very much opposed to the ANC, due to its tactics of fomenting
>>>violence.  Many of the Jewish community even rail at the mention of
>>>Nadine Gordimer, these days.

>>(As in all communities) there are some very reactionary people in 
>>the Jewish community, but I'm still willing to bet there are more
>>Jews in the ANC than in the AWB. 

>I don't know what you mean by reactionary. The people I am referring to are
>quite solid businessmen. Many, if not most, don't want to have anything to
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>do with either the ANC or the AWB. 

These people NEVER supported the goals of the ANC.  Some, like
Oppenheimer and the PFP crowd, supported a general liberalization of
society, but that's not the same as supporting "the goals of the ANC,"
which have, in the past few generations, included undifferentiated
universal franchise and massive redistribution of wealth.



>I think that's the whole point: most South Africans don't want to be aligned
>with either the ANC or the AWB.

That's quite a leap, from an observation about wealthy Jewish
industrialists to "most South Africans."
-- 
larry kolodney:(lkk@panix.com) 
_(*#&)#*&%)@(*^%_!*&%^!)*&#+!*&$+!?&%+!*&^_)*&#%)*&^%#+&
The past is not dead, it's not even past.   - Wm. Faulkner
From: mark@uctvax.uct.ac.za
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
Subject: Bantustans (was re: UPI: Ciskei, etc)
Date: 11 Sep 92 12:39:48 +0200
Organization: University of Cape Town

gavan@elc.mth.uct.ac.za (Gavan Tredoux) writes:
> No mention of Holomisa and his merry men. Neither the Ciskei, nor the
> Transkei army are under the control of the SA govt. They could easily
> step in, in BOTH cases, and take over the govt - but then the ANC wouldn't
> want them stepping into the Transkei would they? And aren't these issues
> to be settled in talks?

The top guys in the Ciskei Police and Ciskei Defence force are all
seconded from the South African Defence Force/South African Government
(excluding the Ciskein Minister of Defence who was one of Gqozo's 
original military tribunal - he purged all the other original members).

Incidently - Gqozo is directly accountable only to the South African 
treasury who finance him.

I think both Gavan and Scott are wrong.  Gavan sees no collusion, while
Scott sees Ciskei's chaps as 'out of control'.  In the last 18 months
the SA government has consolidated its iron grip over Gqozo's military
machine by placing the key military leadership there.  It suits the
government to control, yet appear not to.

As far as Transkei and Holomisa goes, he is ultimately controlled by
the SA treasury as he is also a common or garden dictator.  They have 
exerted considerable pressure on him financially to "toe the line".
The ANC did engage in its current mass action campaign in the Transkei
recently - it was widely reported -  but was without shootings.
Holomisa has been identified as being in the "ANC camp".  At mass
meetings in the Transkei he has appeared on the platform with ANC
leaders.  It was reported in local newspapers that on the first
occassion (Mandela's welcome from prison in the Transkei), Mandela
rebuked him from the podium as a dictator.  (It was reported that he
invited himself onto the platform with great reluctance on the part
of the ANC.)  He is now some kind of ally of the ANC, but I have
never heard of anyone in the ANC accepting his status as dictator 
of Transkei.  He initially called for a referendum in Transkei to 
identify the people's wishes regarding independance from SA, 
(and by implication his position) later he changed this saying 
since the people of Transkei were never consulted about getting 
independance in the first place - it was foisted on them - they 
should not have a seperate referendum/ballot to the rest of SA.  
This contrasts with the Gqozo's, Mangope's and Buthelezi's who are 
undemocratically  proposing to retain autonomy in some future SA 
constitutional model.  Hence the latter are (quite consistently) 
the target of the current phase of mass action.

Mark Ramsden 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: barnhart@gagme.chi.il.us (Mr Aaron Barnhart)
Subject: IPS: AFRICA: CAPITAL MARKETS STILL RUDIM
Originator: barnhart@gagme
Organization: Evanston, Illinois
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 01:30:14 GMT

Title: AFRICA: CAPITAL MARKETS STILL RUDIMENTARY


lagos, sept 2 (ips/remi oyo) -- more than a century after
the establishment of africa's first stock exchange in egypt,
capital markets are still at a rudimentary stage on the
continent.

there are only stock exchanges in 11 out of the 50 african
countries. at the end of 1991, the total number of listed
african companies stood at about 1,000 (excluding south africa)
with a total market capitalisation of 11.6 billion dollars,
according to the international finance corporation (ifc) the
private investment arm of the international monetary fund.

nigeria's stock exchange, with a market capitalisation of 1.9
billion dollars is the largest in africa, just ahead of eqypt.
however, trading volume declined in nigeria last year notes the
ifc, while the world's worst performance -- down by 55 percent
-- was recorded by zimbabwe.

a study by nigeria's security and exchange commission (sec)
points out the poor record of african capital markets is
worsened by ''the significant devaluation of their local
currencies''.

the lack of a stable political and economic enabling
environment to encourage investor confidence and lack of
infrastructural facilities are some of the problems militating
against development of equity markets.

sec, the apex regulatory body of the nigerian capital market
is an executive member of the international organisation of
securities commissions representing africa and the middle
east.

george akamiokhor, the commission's director-general told ips
that the results of the study pointed to the need for more
awareness among african nations.

stock markets serve as an important avenue through which
companies can raise cash, or for governments to raise revenue.

for the 11 stock exchange nations, nigeria, egypt, zimbabwe,
mauritius, morocco, tunisia, kenya, cote d'ivoire, ghana,
botswana and south africa, akamiokhor said: ''there is the need
to develop their capital markets to gain international
recognition'' leading to foreign investment.

africa is saddled with a debt burden of 300 billion
dollars, a continuous drop in the growth of its gross domestic
product and declining gross investments.

capital markets are ''the means and methods that can be
used to mobilize funds'', sylvester akele, spokesperson for a
planned 13-african stock exchange conference to be held in
abuja, nigeria, in november explained. (end/ips/ro/oa/92)


-- 
Mr. Aaron Barnhart@gagme.chi.il.us -- posting from Evanston, Illinois
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african
From: llk@kepler.unh.edu (Local Genius)
Subject: Re: From Africa-L
Organization: Department of Mathematics
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 14:51:10 GMT

In article <1471700114@igc.apc.org> Dorothy Morse <dmorse@igc.apc.org> writes:
>
>John Sneed is someone who said that corrupt African politicians have
>been encouraged by the US.  Siad Barre, the ex-dictator of Somalia,
>is a prize example--we gave him $750,000,000 in military aid to
>oppose Communist Ethiopia.  He gave Somalia a system full of
>clan hatreds--he deliberately set one faction against another.
>When he was overthrown, he went off to live somewhere in luxury,
>leaving the Somalians to this dreadful anarchy, armed by the US.
>
>Sneed had mentioned some other African head of state who was supported
>by the US and spent money foolishly--I think jetting in a hairdresser or
>something like that---then this foolishness is reported in the American
>press and Africans in general look bad.  (Just as now you read how

Mobutu of Zaire...I posted a copy of this discussion on the net a 
while back and you may still have it in your archives...

--

lk(with the man in the yellow hat)
                 Hamba Ine, Adada cha!
From: gavan@elc.mth.uct.ac.za (Gavan Tredoux)
Subject: Re: Figures on Violence - Controversy Grows
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 92 12:56:45 GMT
Organization: University of Cape Town
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

shaze@cs.ubc.ca (Scott Hazelhurst) writes:
: gavan@elc.mth.uct.ac.za (Gavan Tredoux) writes:
: >The South African Institute of Race Relations is about to release
: >a damning indictment of coverage of violence in South Africa
: >by organizations like the (self-dubbed) "Human Rights Comission",
: >the "International Comission of Jurists", who visited recently
: >and delivered a report on violence, and the "Community Agency for
: >Social Enquiry".
: 
: >The report, by Dr Anthea Jeffery, a SAIRR researcher, finds consistent
: >bias, shoddy methodology, reporting of unsubstantiated rumours, 
: >omission of significant categories of violence, misclassification
: >of incidents, and more. Moreover it turns out that the ICJ were
: >invited and SELECTED by the HRC, and that they didn't even CONSULT
: >or question the SAIRR on violence figures. Telling. The figures from
: >CASE, used by Mandela at the UN, are sharply criticised.
: 
: Here goes Gavan again trying to palm off the Transvaal Branch
: of the Inkatha Institute (for some reason they have the initials
: SAIRR) as the *objective*, *neutral* research body. The fact that
: you like them (i.e. they agree with you) doesn't make the SAIRR
: any better than the HRC. I am quite happy to accept that the HRC
: is biased in favour of the ANC, but it is clear to me that SAIRR
: has similar, if not more pronounced, bias in favour of other groups.

What is or is not clear to *you* Scott is of little interest. As far
as bias and shoddy research are concerned, the SAIRR have analysis
and figures to back them up. If you have *any* evidence of pro-Inkatha
bias why don't you post it for us? Ahem, I've asked you for this before
but you didn't post it then either. Telling. Perhaps you might regale us
with *your* reading of SAIRR figures on violence? Oops, does that denote?

Anyone who is seriously interested in, and informed about 
violence in this country should look at the SAIRR analysis very closely.
Particularly since the ANC has made extensive use of HRC and CASE figures.

Yes, well, Scott on his Inkatha trip again. Very valuable contribution
to the debate I'm sure, laced with fantasy in factual drag. 

Elect him life president of SASCO, they deserve each
other.

Gavan Tredoux
UCT 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african