HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: 02/EFFector Online 3.04 F
Date: 15 Sep 92 21:33:30 GMT
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org

In article <73.2AB599C0@puddle.fidonet.org> Patrick.Martin@f825.n102.z1.fidonet.org (Patrick Martin) writes:
 
>Hi Rita,
> 
>Though unsure whether Randy Bush's import of EFF stuff to FidoNet is a
>two-way transmission or not...  here goes, I just had to respond to this
>one and I hope that it get back to you.
> 
>Is it safe to assume that with the bringing of Cliff aboard we'll be
>seeing more of the `subliminal' environmental as above?

I'm responding for Rita, who has decided to leave Usenet for the time
being. (She continues to work for EFF, of course.)

I'm unclear on what you mean by "`subliminal' environmental" above.
If your question is whether Cliff Figallo's assuming the directorship of
the EFF Cambridge office means that EFF has added environmentalism 
to its agenda, the answer is no. We do recycle cans and bottles here,
though. Also, our online newsletter uses 100-percent recycled electrons.

You seem to be assuming that references to the use of this medium by
environmentalist groups implies an endorsement of a particular point of
view. That is a mistake.

>  Many, myself
>included, view much of the environmental movement as EXTRMEIST.  If this
>was used as an example only then I have no problem.  If we are to expect
>more environmental related messages then I'll have to find another
>newsletter to carry on my board.

We may refer in the future to the use of this medium by environmentalists
and other groups with whom you disagree. You should understand that our
point in doing so is simply to stress how the medium is being used--we do
not automatically adopt the point of view of those to whom we refer.
 


--Mike




-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact 
mnemonic@eff.org| of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, 
(617) 864-0665  | both are transformed."
EFF, Cambridge  |                           --Carl Jung
From: 0003751365@mcimail.com (Thomas J. Klotzbach)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: GATEWAY/WINDO ALERT
Date: 15 Sep 92 12:44:00 GMT
Organization: EFF mail-news gateway
Originator: daemon@eff.org


    Bill Vajk and I have exchanged mail on the this thread over the last 12
hours.  I for one, do not believe that the EFF has asked anyone to "blindly"
follow some agenda.  I believe that the EFF is merely passing on information
that the readership may find useful.

    Mr. Vajk has made many comments over this issue, even going so far as to say
that if I want, I can be a "good little german" and blindly follow the EFF's
"orders".  I'm sure that Mr. Vajk was just joking...

    Mr. Vajk also "comments" on a post made by Rita Marie Rouvalis stating that
"it is not a good idea to beat up on the gadfly".  However, there is no
guarantee that the gadfly/poster will post in a professional and responsible
manner, free of statements that detract from the real issues at hand.

    I suggest to the readership that we look at what the real issues are and
filter out comments that are not germaine to the issue - those issues being: was
the EFF advocating a position by forwarding a mail message that advocates
position Z AND is their action appropriate?  Although the line is a fine one, I
think the EFF's actions were appropriate.

*******************************************************************************
Thomas J. Klotzbach                   MCI Mail: 375-1365
Genesee Community College             Internet: 3751365@mcimail.com
Batavia, NY 14020                               klotzbtj@snybufva.cs.snybuf.edu
                                      Work: (716) 343-0055 x358
From: dcgreen@pro-harold.cts.com (David Green)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: comp.org.eff topics (was: something about taxes, etc.)
Date: 9 Sep 92 08:33:11 GMT
Organization: The Harold Network -- An Alliance For Creative Communication

In <1992Sep8.021823.6857@cbnewsh.cb.att.com>
wcs@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (Bill Stewart 908-949-0705 erebus.att.com!wcs) writes:

>We're not really talking about comp.org.eff topics any more.
>Please follow-up to move this discussion to talk.politics.misc or
>alt.society.civil-liberty. 

Ah, I wondered what was happened here. I only added this newsgroup to my BBS
recently, and was about to cancel it because it didn't seem to have anything
to do with what I was expecting to read here.

For the benefit of newcomers such as myself and the members of Pro-Harold (my
BBS), what are some _normal_ comp.org.eff topics?

Thanks!

David :>


===========================================
David Green      dcgreen@pro-harold.cts.com
-------------------------------------------
     System Operator of Pro-Harold BBS
   "Moral Support For Intelligent Sorts"
===========================================
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: Want _Your_ Blood to
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 21:21:55 GMT

In <2151.110.uupcb@cutting.hou.tx.us> david.brooks@cutting.hou.tx.us (David Brooks)  writes:

>   What you are saying, in effect, is: given a choice, people will not
>   support their government. I would think that in itself would constitute
>   more than enough reason to close them all down. Any "service" currently
>   provided by the government could also be performed by a free economy,
>   and probably at a decent profit too. Your "cops and roads" argument
>   just dosn't hold any water!

No, what he is saying, in effect, is that for those things which they
could use if someone else bought them, many people will not chip in
'their share'.  A study of the concepts of 'externality' and 'public
good' would seem to be in order.  This is the biggest whole in the
whole libertarian economic argument.

[See any reasonably decent economics textbook.]

-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
From: Gary.Pustizzi@f346.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Gary Pustizzi)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Curious
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 21:43:00 PST
Organization: FidoNet node 1:101/346 - Beta BBS, Newton MA

          Bob Mcgrath wrote

Are my questions, addressed to either the sysop or to other users, all sent internationally?  Or did I simply punch the wrong response, and send my question across the international timeline?


       Actually, yes.  I do believe you have sent your message into the international void...
===
 * TLX vE=MC * Since when is the Internal Revenue a Service?



--  
uucp: uunet!m2xenix!puddle!101!346!Gary.Pustizzi
Internet: Gary.Pustizzi@f346.n101.z1.fidonet.org
From: Brian.Lane@p0.f162.n138.z1.fidonet.org (Brian Lane)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Eddie Argo, where are you? (book search)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 92 10:44:00 PST
Organization: FidoNet node 1:138/162.0 - Callahan's Place, Ashford WA

In a message of 10 Sep 92  15:32:10, Scott Butler wrote:

SB> Perhaps some kind soul in NetLand can help me out.
SB> 
SB> Years ago I read a piece of fiction about a guy (I think that the 
SB> character's name was Eddie Argo) who was a computer programmer for 
SB> the city of Buffalo NY.  The character fakes his own death, steals 
SB> a van and a computer,  and becomes a hi-tech Robin Hood, travelling
SB> around the country hacking into systems to "steal from the rich and 
SB> give to the poor".  I've been looking for the book the past couple 
SB> of years but am a little bit hamstrung by the fact that not only 
SB> can't I remember the name of the book, I *also* can't remember the 
SB> name of the author.
SB> 
SB> Can anyone help me out?  I'd like to find out (at least) the name
SB> of the book and the authors name.  The publisher and publication 
SB> date would also really be helpful.

 Holy freakin cow!  I thougt I was the ONLY one in the world who had read this book.  As I remember it it was called "Programmer" or something like that, and it was blue.  It was an excellent read!

  If you find out the name ofthe author, PLEASE contact me.

    -Brian


--  
uucp: uunet!m2xenix!puddle!138!162.0!Brian.Lane
Internet: Brian.Lane@p0.f162.n138.z1.fidonet.org
From: Bob.Mcgrath@f69.n104.z1.fidonet.org (Bob Mcgrath)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: CURIOUS
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 92 21:51:55 PST
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/69 - TelePeople{sm} Memb, West Adams County

Are my questions, addressed to either the sysop or to other users, all sent internationally?  Or did I simply punch the wrong response, and send my question across the international timeline?


--  
uucp: uunet!m2xenix!puddle!104!69!Bob.Mcgrath
Internet: Bob.Mcgrath@f69.n104.z1.fidonet.org
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
From: rita@eff.org (Rita Marie Rouvalis)
Subject: Re: GATEWAY/WINDO ALERT
Originator: rita@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 20:11:03 GMT

In article <1992Sep14.182756.4007@news.acns.nwu.edu> learn@speedy.acns.nwu.edu (William J. Vajk) writes:
>In article <199209141552.AA08518@eff.org> James P Love writes:
>>                    Gateway/WINDO - SEPTEMBER ALERT
>
>>THE SCOOP
>

>The most important thing the EFF could do is to communicate just what 
>the bills mean, and take a public position on them rather than simply 
>asking readers to blindly snap to attention to follow some unstated agenda.

	Good Grief, Bill.  You'll notice that this is not a statement
from the EFF, but something we've passed along from another
organization that is working towards similar ends on this particular
piece of legislation.  I thought that was obvious from the introduction.

	We've taken very public positions on a number of pieces of
legislation, and our agenda is hardly a mystery.





-- 
Rita Marie Rouvalis              rita@eff.org 
Electronic Frontier Foundation   | Brown eggs are local eggs,
155 Second Street                | and local eggs are fresh!
Cambridge, MA 02141 617-864-0665 |
From: mjones@fenway.aix.kingston.ibm.com (Mike Jones)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: taxes, theft, police, etc.
Date: 4 Sep 92 15:12:52 GMT
Organization: IBM Corp. Kingston NY

In article <89.2AA3B7D7@toadnet.org> Roger.Franz@p0.f16.n8012.z86.Toadnet.org (Roger Franz) writes:
> > GW: God, you "taxes are theft" people are so thick it's just incredible. 
>Perhaps we're in the majority? 

Oh, so that explains the run of Libertarian presidents we've had over the
last forty years. I was wondering about that....
  
>You can probably do that now. [rest of obnoxiously long line deleted]
Yo! Would it be too much of an infringement on your personal liberties to
put in the occasional carriage return?
  
> > GW: a government to stand behind  the money so you don't have to 
> > GW: lug a bushel 
> > GW: of wheat around to barter to get shoes for your kids. 
>This didn't happen in other semi-anarchist societies; why would it happen now? 

Read your history. This is one of the major reasons why money was
established. Governments were established, in part, to give legitimacy to
the money (i.e., some expectation that if you took the money in exchange for
goods, you would in turn be able to exchange it for other goods).
  
> > GW:  we 
> > GW: would still be a backward agrarian people. 
>Not true either. You socialists really like to distort the truth. 

Oh please. So, you crypto-anarchists are saying that we'd be much better if
everybody ignored the government, like, say, in Yugoslavia! Sure! Now, of
course that's a ridiculous statement, but no more so than yours above.
Probably the least appealing thing about many net.libertarians is their
reflex obnoxiousness in calling anyone they disagree with socialists or
statists. What, did you guys all go to the same school with the Jehovah's
Witnesses?
  
> > GW: Taxes  are the dues you pay to society in return for all the 
> > GW: benefits you 
> 
>Ah, the benefits. [Obnoxiously long line with several examples of
government idiocy deleted]
Yeah, so what's your point? The US government isn't perfect. In some cases,
like the War on Drugs, it's bordering on dangerous. In libertopia, of
course, there would never be any crime, no injustice, no pollution. Right,
and the Queen of England is a drug dealer.
  
> > GW: elect someone who'll vote the way you want. 
>We can't; you won't let us put him on the ballot! 

Is this the hysterical you or the ideological you? Last I saw, Marrou was on
the ballot in a bunch of states. Besides, what is it about so many
Libertarians that seems to make them unable to field candidates for
positions other than President? If Libertarianism is such a good deal, why
can't we have a demonstration of it in a couple of cities, or a state?

   Mike Jones  |  AIX/ESA Development  |  mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com

Strive at all times to bend, fold, spindle, and mutilate.
From: ian@airs.com (Ian Lance Taylor)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: taxes, theft, police, etc.
Date: 7 Sep 92 21:51:48 GMT

pjs269@tijc02.uucp (Paul Schmidt) writes:

>The
>great depression of the 1930s happened after the U.S. government removed
>the dollar from the gold standard.

That is not the usual view.  The Great Depression is normally
considered to have started in 1929.  Roosevelt took the U.S. off the
gold standard in 1933.  England and some other European countries had
already abandoned the gold standard, in 1931.

When you say things that most people do not believe, it would be
polite to qualify them in some way.  If nothing else, it might help
decrease the amount of disinformation on Usenet.
-- 
Ian Lance Taylor                ian@airs.com                 uunet!airs!ian
First person to identify this quote wins a free e-mail message:
``He caught the lady in this way: so when the lady was running away for her
  life, he hastily ran to her front and stopped her as a log of wood.''
From: Joe.Francis@dartmouth.edu (Joe Francis)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: GATEWAY/WINDO ALERT
Date: 15 Sep 92 01:36:39 GMT
 <1992Sep14.182756.4007@news.acns.nwu.edu> 
 <1992Sep14.224351.29144@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>  
 <1992Sep14.233719.9972@news.acns.nwu.edu>
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0a4@newshost.dartmouth.edu

In article <1992Sep14.233719.9972@news.acns.nwu.edu>
learn@speedy.acns.nwu.edu (William J. Vajk) writes:

> This is the point, Joe. The people at the EFF office seem to have
> lost sight of some real basics.

Hmmm.  In the past I have found that the people at EFF have been very
good at "the basics".  Rita and others at EFF have always answered my
questions and responded to my suggestions.  I have every reason to
believe that someone at EFF will answer the question to my
satisfaction.
From: adam@sparkle.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: Ticketmaster privacy
Date: 15 Sep 92 20:18:35 GMT
Article-I.D.: das.1992Sep15.201835.7810
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University

In article <74.2AB599C1@puddle.fidonet.org> Brian.Schuth@f346.n101.z1.fidonet.org (Brian Schuth) writes:
>For all you privacy paranoiacs out there (myself included)...

>The other day I was ordering tickets from Ticketmaster.  After taking
>my order, my address, my phone number, and my credit card number (my
>privacy-violation-ticker edging toward the red already, but hey, what
>could I do?), they proceeded to ask me a varie >ty of questions,
>culminating in their new "survey"--who would I vote for for President?
>I was surprised enough that rather than hassling the operator, I
>merely said I would not answer the question, and hung up.

They only gave me three choices, too.  I wanted to say Paulson, but
they wanted to list that as undecided... :(

They take your name & address to mail you the tickets, or contact you
if there's a problem.  I don't really care about ticketmaster getting
my name & address, if I did, I'd pay cash.  I'd worry when they ask
for my SSN.

>What possible use could this survey have from a scientific
>standpoint? The cohort is self-selected and representative of just
>about nothing. I can't come up with any plausible reason for this that
>doesn't send me south to Conspiracyland. 

I think they might be doing something with MTV's "Rock the Vote"
campaign.  I'm not going to worry about it, I got good seats for the
Jethro Tull show.. :)

Adam


Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all.  How true that is.
From: jfh@reef.cis.ufl.edu (James F. Hranicky)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: taxes, theft, police, etc.
Date: 16 Sep 92 01:50:37 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Univ. of Florida CIS Dept.

Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: taxes, theft, police, etc.
Summary: 
Expires: 
Followup-To: 
Distribution: 
Organization: Univ. of Florida CIS Dept.
Keywords: 

>Sorry.  I did this from memory.  Thanks for correcting me.  Sometime about 
>15 years before the depression, the U.S. Government did something major.
>I thought I remembered it as taking the currency off the gold standard.
>It evidently was something else.  When I get a chance I will look it up,
>or maybe you know what I am talking about.

The government absolutely did something 15 years before the depression.
They installed the Federal Reserve, giving the government a monopoly
on money issue it DID NOT HAVE BEFORE.

Someone on this group said that without government, money would not exist.
Certainly, without some form of government to protect individual rights,
society would not exist. However, government control of money issue is
quite IN FACT unecessary. We had money from 1837 to 1914, and private
banks issued their own money--there was no government monopoly on money
issue.

The framers of the Constitution intended that Congress was allowed to
"coin money and regulate the value thereof." This statement meant that
the government would standardize the amount of gold in coins, similar
to standardizing weights and measures. It quite expressly left out
issueing paper, and did not mandate government monopoly on minting or
issue.

Jim Hranicky jfh@reef.cis.ufl.edu
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
From: pjs269@tijc02.uucp (Paul Schmidt)
Subject: Re: taxes, theft, police, etc.
Organization: Advocates for Self-Government - Davy Crockett Chapter
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 92 12:08:02 GMT

ian@airs.com (Ian Lance Taylor) writes:
: pjs269@tijc02.uucp (Paul Schmidt) writes:
: 
: >The
: >great depression of the 1930s happened after the U.S. government removed
: >the dollar from the gold standard.
: 
: That is not the usual view.  The Great Depression is normally
: considered to have started in 1929.  Roosevelt took the U.S. off the
: gold standard in 1933.  England and some other European countries had
: already abandoned the gold standard, in 1931.
: 
Sorry.  I did this from memory.  Thanks for correcting me.  Sometime about 
15 years before the depression, the U.S. Government did something major.
I thought I remembered it as taking the currency off the gold standard.
It evidently was something else.  When I get a chance I will look it up,
or maybe you know what I am talking about.
: -- 
: Ian Lance Taylor                ian@airs.com                 uunet!airs!ian
: First person to identify this quote wins a free e-mail message:
: ``He caught the lady in this way: so when the lady was running away for her
:   life, he hastily ran to her front and stopped her as a log of wood.''
-- 
Paul Schmidt: Advocates for Self-Government, Davy Crockett Chapter President
706 Judith Drive, Johnson City, TN 37604, (615)283-0084, uunet!tijc02!pjs269
"Freedom seems to have unleashed the  creative energies of the people -- and
leads to ever higher levels of income and social progress."  --  U.N. report
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
From: spp@zabriskie.berkeley.edu (Steve Pope)
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: Wanna See Something Really Scary?
Date: 14 Sep 1992 16:27:23 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley -- ERL
Distribution: inet
NNTP-Posting-Host: zabriskie.berkeley.edu

farbrent!ajr3@ms.uky.edu writes:

>[...]

>For me,the implications of Congressional interest in  
>the net and the possibility of Steve Jackson Games like investigative  
>techniques being applied to all of the machines involved are  
>staggering.
>
>I thought I'd pass it along for your opinions.
>
>j.
>> [ deleted: letter to congress demanding FBI investigate internet ]

No kidding.  The last thing we need is governmental authorities
investigating the network.  This community can self-police just
fine, thank you...

Fortunately, letters of this sort always get deep-sixed by some
congressional aide.  And even if not, the odds of the FBI taking an
interest in all this are about jill.

There's no political percentage in hosing a computer network
...is there?

Steve
Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.news,comp.org.eff.talk
From: rita@eff.org (Rita Marie Rouvalis)
Subject: Last Chance for T-Shirts
Followup-To: comp.org.eff.talk 
Originator: rita@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 19:53:19 GMT


                   LAST CHANCE FOR EFF T-SHIRTS

     Once these are gone, I'm not going to reorder any more.
I have only a 50 of each size mentioned below, so first come
first serve.





For a mere $10, EFF will send you a spiffy 100% cotton white T-shirt
with the new black and red EFF logo tastefully displayed on front, and
the following on the back:


                         ELECTRONIC FRONTIER
                             FOUNDATION
                            eff@eff.org


                     (50's style graphic with
                 large building sitting on world)


                 Serving Cyberspace since 1990




These are the very same hot t-shirts that sold quickly at CFP-2!
They come in sizes XL, M, & S only. Send your $10 check or
money order to


The Electronic Frontier Foundation
ATT:  Rita T. Shirts
155 Second Street
Cambridge MA  02141


"What a DEAL!  People will be hard-pressed to find a shirt of the same
quality with such fantastic silk-screening for less than $20 in any
T-shirt store in the country.  (You can quote me on that.)"
    -- Brendan Kehoe <brendan@cs.widener.edu> upon receiving his shirt.


*** Mention that you are an EFFector Online reader, and we will ***
             waive all shipping and handling charges!
    (We'll also do this if you *don't* mention you're an EO reader.)


   
-- 
Rita Marie Rouvalis              rita@eff.org 
Electronic Frontier Foundation   | Brown eggs are local eggs,
155 Second Street                | and local eggs are fresh!
Cambridge, MA 02141 617-864-0665 |