From: daveb@pogo.wv.tek.com (Dave Butler)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: The problem of evil
Date: 3 Sep 92 22:41:36 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Wilsonville,  OR.

I find it ironic that Steve Gross should criticize Bob Mathews for refusing 
to believe something Mr Mathews finds ridiculous:

>>If this is truly all that your religion boils down to, then I want no
>>part in it.  I refuse to believe in a god that gives me the capability
>>for logical thought and then sets up the universe so that I will be
>>tormented for eternity if I use that capability.
>
> ---- That is the trouble with you and many others like you Bob.  
> "I refuse to believe  [ any reason imaginable stuck in here ] "  
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The reason I find it especially ironic is that Steve Gross himself has openly
stated that he refuses to believe certain things about his god, if he finds
those things unpleasant.  In reply to Steve Adams, Mr Gross made it clear that
he is incapable of believing that his god created evil, whether it is actually
true or not:

> The passages in Isaiah never say that God created evil, only darkness
> according to your translations of the verses.  God simply CANNOT be
> responsible for evil.  If he is, then the whole of the bible is false.  I
> refuse to accept that.						  ^
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I can make allowances for someone who admits that he is incapable of certain
beliefs, regardless of the verity of such beliefs.  I do not though make those
same allowances for such a person who also chastises other people who may
express similar sentiment on the other side of the issue. 

Now personally, I too find it ludicrous to say a "infinitely loving" god to
gave us the capability of logic, and all the evidence of its efficacy, and
will also punish us with eternal hell for exercising that logic.  On the other
hand though, I would believe in the existence of that god if given actual
empirical evidence.  I might not consider him worthy of worship and I would
definitely argue the point about "infinitely loving," but upon receiving such
evidence, I would not refuse to acknowledge his existence simply because I
might find that existence distasteful. 

Now Mr Gross, as to your closing statement condemning Mr Mathews to hell:

> Not that you should feel bad though.  There are plenty of people who
> were better than you burning in hell right now saying that Christianity is
> not real.  And, as will likely be the case, you will join them.  Too bad
> really.

It seems quite silly and selfrighteous to present the unsubstantiated and
unsupportable threat of eternal damnation to someone like Mr Mathews, who has
already stated that he dismisses emotionalistic claims made without evidence. 
Thus Mr Gross, since such threats affect Mr Mathews' belief not at all, I tend
to see this situation as indicating that you were making such threats to give
yourself some satisfaction rather than give Mr Mathews any edification.  If
that is the case, then you are more than welcome to fantasize about his and
even my future torture in your choice of afterlife.  If it gives you some
satisfaction to imagine people like us eternally bobbing in some pain filled
lake of fire, go for it; believe what you wish.  But as there is no verifiable
evidence for your mythology of hell, I would conclude that your fantasy of
eternal torment is a much better indicator about you personality Mr Gross,
than it is evidence for an afterlife. 
 
				Later,

				Dave Butler

    Nothing is so easy as to deceive one's self; for what we wish, 
    that we readily believe. 
				Demosthenes, Athenian Orator
				Third Olynthiac, 348 BC