From: vader@meryl.csd.uu.se ("]ke Eldberg")
Subject: FRP and negative stereotypes
Organization: The Internet
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 21:01:28 GMT

Greetings from William de Corbie!

I wrote:

>> I agree that negative stereotyping is a bad thing that has
>> happened to both role-players and SF fans in the SCA. However,
>> I would also like to point out that FRP-ers can sometimes be
>> very boring.

Boris (boris@sys6626.bison.mb.ca) answered:

>WOW! In the same paragraph he condems and then partakes of the very
>activity he condemned! My hat's off to him. Gosh. Golly.

Not true. I was not using a stereotype; I was introducing some of
my personal experiences. If I had said that "all FRP-ers are boring",
without qualifying my statement, that would have negative stereo-
typing. The statement you quote should not be taken out of context,
since it was qualified and clarified by the following paragraphs in
my posting. 

Me:

>> We have a number of young males (14-19 years) here who have
>> come into the SCA from role-playing. These guys seem to live
>> in a separate universe; they ... [description of FRP-based
>> jargon and attitudes deleted] ...
>> The non-medieval references are jarring to non-FRP people.

Boris:

>My, my, my. SO much for the validity of his condemnation.

My purpose was to demonstrate that even though negative stereotyping
is a bad thing, it seldom appears out of nowhere; there is a background
-- in this case, that some FRP-ers annoy people with their jargon,
attitudes and behavior. The fact that such annoyance sometimes leads to
a negative stereotype is lamentable, but hardly a surprise. When an
easily identifyable group of people consistently behave in a manner
irritating to others, that's what happens. People generalize from what
they see. I do not support such generalizations; I merely observe and
describe how it works, so that we may understand, and hopefully avoid
making the same mistake.

Boris:

>(I should like to point out that what he describes is true of any
>group of enthusiasts. Glider pilots to mystery buffs to the SCA.)

Certainly. If you had bothered to read my whole posting before
flaming away, you would have seen that I made the same remark myself,
at the end of the message.
 
Me:
>> ...[description of live FRP in the SCA camp at Visby omitted]...
>> ...but they irritate people because they appear to be playing a
>> different game than the rest of us.

Boris:

>No. You should have said that they irritate you personally. YOU appear to
>have a problem with them. 

Again, not true. As a baronial officer and the editor of the barony
newsletter, I have received several phonecalls and a couple of letters
from people who were irritated by the live FRP in Visby. The callers
and writers wanted to put a notice in the newsletter, politely asking
FRP-ers to do their stuff somewhere out of sight. Some wanted to bring
about an official policy decision to the same effect (which they
wanted me to support). I wasn't even present in Visby.

Boris:

>Fighters must also irritate you. As should heralds and weavers and
>carpenters and politicians. Each of them talk thier own 'game' up and
>play it all the time. Tough luck. that's what life amoungst people is
>like. If you can't handle something as trivial as a group of people
>having a little bit of fun with their hobbies in plain view then you'd
>better find a hermit's cave.

You have absolutely no cause to make any assumptions about what
irritates me. But I will tell you. The purpose of the SCA is to
re-create, depict and learn about the middle ages. If people want
to do things which have no relation to this, I prefer that they do
them somewhere else. 

As has been stated before on this newsgroup, there are many pairs of
activities such that activity A can be performed successfully while
activity B is going on nearby, but B cannot be done successfully
while A is going on. (Loud revelling and sleeping is one example of
such a pair.) Re-creation of the middle ages does not bother bikers,
hang gliders, paintball players, live role-players, boom box listeners,
wild-west cowboys, model airplane fliers, etcetera -- but if any of
their activities are performed nearby, it will inevitably disturb or
even ruin any attempt to create an image of medieval life. Hence,
FRP (whether live or not) bothers me if it is done publicly at SCA
events.

Boris:

>There is rarely any truth in a stereotype. Myth, misinformation,
>rumour, urban ledgends, fantasies and outright stupidity and lack of
>knowledge make up and perpetuate most stereotypes. It's a form of
>bigotry. If you dislike it then don't engage in it.

So you prefer to condemn stereotypes instead of trying to understand
how they happen. Okay, be my guest. Just don't elude yourself that
you will ever get rid of them that way.

William

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca