From: Will Steeves <goid@zooid.guild.org>
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: excerpts from a new  (1)
Date: 27 Aug 1992 18:30:28 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

MCCLOSKEY@FALCON.AAMRL.WPAFB.AF.MIL (KATHY MCCLOSKEY) writes...
KM> There's a book out this year entitled _Women Respond to the Men's
KM> Movement_ edited by Kay Leigh Hagan, and published by Pandora's Books:
KM> HarperCollins (HarperSanFrancisco), New York, NY.

KM> There are two essays especially relevant to the discussion about
KM> parenting battles between males and females.  One deals with the ivory
KM> tower version and the other deals with the real world situation facing
KM> women AND men.  Excerpts from both:

KM> "While many single mothers succeed in raising fine sons, the fact
KM> remains that fatherless boys are at higher risk for antisocial,
KM> violent behavior.  They often grow up insecure with respect to
KM> masculine identity, which can lead to an exaggerated concern with
KM> rejecting everything "feminine" and a need to prove masculinity by
KM> acting tough, callous, and eager to fight.  Anthropologists refer to
KM> this as "protest masculinity" and sociologists as "hypermasculinity."
KM> Bly [of _Iron John_ fame] recognizes this problem.

(etcetera.... and now the second excerpt)...


KM> "...I was not surprised when I first encountered father's rights
KM> activists in the late 1970s, claiming male maternal superiority and
KM> blaming women for father's failures.  Eventually, I wrote about them
KM> in _Mothers on Trial: The Battle for Children and Custody_, in 1986.
KM> The collective message delivered by "father's rights" groups is a
KM> chilling one: that children belong to men (sperm donors, surrogate
KM> contract fathers, live-in boyfriends, legal husbands) when men want
KM> them, but not when they don't.


Kathy, why do you say that only this second excerpt, this "all men's and
father's activists are really just the patriarchy in disguise" reflects "the
real world situation" while the first "sons need their fathers" is an "ivory
tower version" ?  Are you saying that children do not really need their
fathers, or that the "feminist version" of child custody determinations ought
to be thought of as the real version of "reality".

And as for the second quote's allegation that father's rights groups say that
"children should belong to men," I would say quite unequivocally that this
is not just a misstatement, but an outright lie.  Most such groups argue in
favour of *joint custody* and *fairer* determinations of custody.

And as for Ms. Chesler's (ie., author of the second quote) allegation of
"70% of men who fight for custody, get it" (paraphrased), I *still* have not
seen any *tangible PROOF* provided from *any* court circuit in the United
States, Canada, or any other country.  Besides which, if it is true, then
where are all the legions of single fathers?  I don't see them, so why does
Ms. Chesler insist that the court system is stacked against women in custody
cases, when it fact the huge number of fathers who want more time with their
children and are sometimes paying *huge* amounts of child support, which in
some cases they are *unable* to afford, should certainly tell someone that
the opposite is the case.

[Moderator's note: a reference about disputed custody cases was sent to
Mr. Steeves.  There are few single fathers because few custody cases
*are* disputed.  We will not post further discussion on this subject
unless someone comes up with new references/information. - MB]

---
Will Steeves, goid@zooid.guild.org                      "Neil Hull is GOiD"
ZOOiD BBS, Toronto, Ontario - The Zoo Of Ids            "GOiDS Rule"
(416) 322-7876
---
 * SLMR 2.1a * Never eat anything larger than your head.


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