From: masonp@physun.physics.mcmaster.ca (Peter Mason)
Subject: Re: Indian cookbooks and some random comments
Organization: Dept. of Physics & Astronomy, McMaster University
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 16:56:57 GMT

In article <altar.714463583@sfu.ca> altar@beaufort.sfu.ca (Ted Wayn Altar) writes:
>masonp@physun.physics.mcmaster.ca (Peter Mason) writes:
>> . . .
>>During my
>>first year not eating meat, I was somewhat combatitive about the subject
>>and I succeed only in offending and alienating people.  I'm afraid I
>>see some of that on this newsgroup.
>. . . 
>
>I'm afraid that I don't see what you are talking about.  Yes, your
>intent to bring greater magnanimity to this conferance is laudable
>and I thank you for your personal and honest statement.  

Your welcome.  We do interpret some things differently it seems.

>Still, I think you are capitulating to the unwarranted rudeness and
>even hostility that we have seen a FEW of our omnivorous
>kibitzers lapse into making.  

Hmmm.  Yes, I guess that is what I am advocating somewhat.  I don't see
the point of responding to rudeness and hostility with anything more
than a simple "you are attacking *me*, not my ideas, and not adding
anything of use to this group"  The readers of this group are fully
capable of seeing when a thread degenerates, and it is the person
who initiates the rudeness who loses the most credibility.  I hate 
to think that some of the excellent points made by posters to this 
group may be dismissed by people when they see an accusation/counter-
accusation argument develop.  People do react this way.  

>Suggesting that this rudeness is
>caused or provoked by the vegetarians themselves here on this conference 
>is simply unfair.  

Yes it would be.  I am suggesting, however, that we don't let ourselves be
drawn into unproductive arguments that deal more with personalities than issues.
I feel that this generally happens because the 'loser' of a debate tends to
resort to accusations.  That is when we should stop the discussion with the
accuser.

>If one reads carefully the full exchange of some
>treads, you will find that it is our omnivore critics who initiate
>rude and insulting remarks.  

Yes.  Except in the interest of fairness I would have written 'almost always
initiate' instead.  There are times when, perhaps out of frustration, a 
remark is misinterpreted and in the response a seed is planted that grows into
a flame war.
 
>If you believe otherwise, than maybe you could provide some choice quotes so that 
>we can properly answer to this charge about "combatitive" vegetarians.  

Well, I'm not trying to be specific since I think we would not accomplish much.
The point I'm making is dealing with more with general attitudes of debate.  I'm not
trying to 'charge' anyone with anything.  I'm a combatitive vegetarian given the
proper circumstances.  I combat uninformed points of view and lack of education.
Not people.  No matter how idiotic and abusive a person is, retaliation does not
succeed in anything useful.

>Look, I didn't ask for antipathy, but I am getting tired of being
>called a "fanatic" when I in turn have never initiated or even
>responded with such rude remarks directed at my ominvorous critics.

Good.  And I'm sure we are all tired of being labelled fanatics.

>No, I won't respond in kind, but I refuse to be saddled with
>improper and unfair characterizations.

No problem.

>> it is possible to 
>>believe strongly in what you are saying, to be firm in what you convey,
>>and to be persuassive, without being intolerant.
>> . . .
>
>Yes I agree.  Now, who but some defensive omnivores are being
>"intolerant"?
>                                        ted

When I use the word 'intolerant' here, I refer to the inability to
tolerate groundless insults without responding carefully.  There are
always going to be 'fundamentalist omnivores' who simply abuse.  But
I fear if too much of this group is taken up by accusations and 
counter-accusations, people will be turned off.  Most of the 'lurking
omnivores' out there have legitimate questions and concerns, as well
as differing points of view which can stimulate useful discussions here.
We don't want to alienate them by wasting time responding to insults.

peace,



Peter

-- 
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Peter Mason
masonp@nukie.physics.mcmaster.ca
Newsgroups: rec.food.veg