From: lazarus@wixer.cactus.org (Michael Lax)
Subject: Re:  Are Republicans Evil?
Organization: Real/Time Communications
Distribution: usa
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 92 19:52:08 GMT

     dpe@inel.gov (Don Palmrose) responds to article
     <1992Aug22.120213.16090@wixer.cactus.org>, lazarus@wixer.cactus.org
     (Michael Lax) 

     Again, the above does not make Bush and Quayle to be a Hitler. 
     Hitler did so much that one can do almost anything and still be
     compared to that evil man.  Because Bush is Pro-Choice and receives
     support from Pat Robertson still does not make him a Hitler, just
     someone who is in disagreement to your views.

I do _not_ use the analogy to Hitler and fascism lightly - I am Jewish and
generally agree with Mr. Palmrose that it can be counterproductive to compare a
leader with Hitler just on one or two points.  However, Bush and Quayle have
repeatedly and deliberately excluded, amongst others, gays and lesbians from
being full and equal citizens.  We are not to be trusted in the military, we
are not to be trusted as parents, etc.  Other groups - atheists, for example -
have also been told they are not "real" Americans.  Isn't that part of how
fascism works?  It makes the majority feel superior by undermining the
minority.  Another aspect of fascism is that otherwise rational people follow
along so readily - how do you think Hitler became so popular?  As for calling
comparing a person to Hitler just because I disagree with them - I hope you
realize how ridiculous that sounds.  


     (The DOD won't even HIRE us.)

     The DOD won't take everyone to begin with.

Please explain this one.  The DOD and military - as well as the FBI - refuse to
permit us to serve simply because of our sexual orientation.  The reasons they
give can be _directly_ compared to the reasons given for not integrating the
military in the 1940's.  Yet all of their reasoning has been disproved - by
their own studies.  We are not a security risk - *especially* if we're out of
the closet.  We do not reduce morale.  And, more importantly, gays and lesbians
are already in the military and the DOD (can we say PETER WILLIAMS).

     These types of arguements are for a particular lifestyle.  What you
     want are lifestyle rights.  Whether or not the Constitution grants
     lifestyle rights like what homosexuals want will be debated and
     fought over for several years.  I only hope it is done peacefully. 
     Again, my point is someone disagrees with you automatically makes
     them make a Hitler is a vile way of attack.  Just like the way of
     getting back at someone in the past by calling them a homosexual or a
     communist to get them out of government.  It was dispicable then and
     it still is today.

Huh?  What are "lifestyle" rights?  The Constitution mentions "Life, Liberty
and the pursuit of Happiness."  I am, in many states, denied "Liberty" because
I am labeled a criminal because I love a man.  If "lifestyle" rights means
being able to marry, not worry that I will be denied housing or a job because
I'm gay, then, yes, I want "lifestyle" rights.  Yet by this definition _YOU_
have lifestyle rights.  I assume (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that when
you say "arguments for" you mean that by asking for equal protection and rights
I am somehow asking for the government to "promote" homosexuality.  If so, I'd
like to hear how you came to this conclusion.

As for the "Hitler" label - I did not call you Hitler, and would not compare
someone to Hitler for disagreeing with me.  As regards this example, however,
is in the way that Hitler repressed the Jews - and the Turks, Gypsies, and, of
course, homosexuals.  He took away their rights.  He then claimed they had no
claim on "special" rights.  And while Bush has not put us in camps yet, Pat
Robertson and the like wish to "convert" us.


     Again, because Bush does not actively go out and seek the
     overturnment of "sodomy" laws does not make him to be a Hitler.  Did
     Carter, Johnson, or Kennedy treat homosexuals any differently than
     the US government does today?  The answer is no!

While Carter, Johnson & Kennedy may not have actively supported the gay
community, they did not go out of their way - as the Bush administration has -
to attack it.  Also, it is my understanding (sorry, I don't have specific
quotes handy) that Bush _supports_ sodomy laws - or at least the state's right
to enact them.

     Again, you compare something from the past and say Bush is doing it
     today. Jews in Nazi Germany suffered from Government run torture and
     hate campaigns.  You might think that the US government is doing that
     today because it will not recognize your lifestyle, but it is untrue. 
     Unfortunately, there are hate crimes committed by some against gays
     and like crimes made against those who speak out against the granting
     of lifestyle rights.  Bush has NEVER EVER said that these action are
     proper and right.  He has stated over and over the evil of such
     actions and has pledge (I am sure) Federal assistance to any local
     government in bring those who commit hate crimes to justice.  Hardly
     the act of a Hitler.

But Bush has repeatedly stated that homosexuality is not "moral and right." 
Some Republicans have gone so far as to say that gays that get bashed _deserve_
it.  As for his opposing hate crimes - I have not seen it.  And, as I stated
previously, police and the military _DO_ use force against gay people.  And
yes, not everything that happened to the Jews, Turks, Gypsies and homosexuals
under Hitler are happening to us under Bush - but a lot of the injustice and
promotion of hatred _IS_.

     I have stated several times above, you have a disagreement with Bush
     and the Republican party over "lifestyle rights".  

Again, HUH?  How is not wanting to be forced or coerced into a "conversion" a
"lifestyle right"?  Do you have people telling you that the way you love is
wrong and evil?  Yet I would tend to agree with your statement that a single
disagreement is not reason to compare someone to Hitler.  The Bush
administration, however, has provided numerous comparisons to fascism - if not
Hitler, than perhaps Mussolini.  He has essentially made gays, lesbians,
atheists, single mothers, et al., second class citizens.  When they ask to be
"first class" citizens, they are seeking "special rights."  

     I have taken great pain to keep my individual viewpoint from this
     topic and have tried to word my reply in such a manner.  

     I know you will not change your viewpoint on homosexuality and it is not
                                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
     my desire to change it.

I realize you probably do not realize just _how_ offensive this statement is. 
My "viewpoint" on homosexuality is that I'm gay.  Because I am sexually and
romantically attracted to men - not a choice (did you choose to be attracted to
the opposite sex?) I am subjected to all sorts of abuse.  My being gay is not
an "opinion" which I can detach myself from.  It is, essentially, who I am.

     My purpose is to show you the error in the method you wish to discuse
     the topic.  I can understand your strong feelings on this matter, but
     it is important in our form of government to keep polictical
     discussion in a rational and unthreatening manner.  It sometimes does
     not stay that way and I feel this is a major threat to the
     Constitution today, again, no matter who carries out such action.

     I hope this clarifies this topic.  I wish you the best in any of your 
     endeavors as long as they are peaceful and done with respect to the
     rights of others to disagree with you.

I also try to keep the debate on this topic from getting outrageous.  My
comparison of Bush to Hitler was, mostly, hyperbole.  Although this method may
be stronger than you like, it can be quite effective.  I have no animosity
towards you, even though we disagree with each other.  You have made some
interesting points - and I agree that being reminded not to offend is an
excellent one.  I don't think my previous post was a personal attack (I didn't
call you names, etc.), and I will continue to be careful with what I say.  


========================================================================

"For I can see that in the midst of death, Life persists; in the
midst of untruth, Truth persists; in the midst of darkness, Light
persists."

"An eye for an eye will blind the world."
                                      Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi

"I'm here, I'm queer, get used to it."
                                                             ME!

lazarus@wixer.cactus.org
Michael Lax, 12514 Esplanade St., #B, Austin, TX  78727-4409
Newsgroups: alt.rush-limbaugh