From: mon@cray.com (Muriel Nelson)
Subject: Re: Some Park Service Estimates (formerly: The March in D.C.)
Date: 13 Apr 92 17:16:43 CDT

In article <1992Apr13.193028.23240@ncsu.edu> dsh@csl36h.csl.ncsu.edu (Doug Holtsinger) writes:
>In article <1992Apr13.122125.4321@hemlock.cray.com> 
>                mon@cray.com (Muriel Nelson) writes:
>
>>> As I told Ms. McCabe, a mother cannot normally act to cause birth to happen, 
>>> birth is an event that happens to her. Birth can be induced with drugs, but
>>> that's not what I was referring to. Please extend me the same courtesy
>>> that I give to you by not quoting me out of context.  
>
>> Though the timing of labor's onset is presumably determined by the 
>> same dread class of gremlins who set the timing for flat tires and
>> lost dental fillings, giving birth to a baby is not something that
>> 'happens to her' with no effort on the woman's part. 
>
>I *never* said that the woman makes no effort during birth. Birth is

You *did* say,

  "Birth is an event, not an action taken by the mother."

This _could_ be construed to trivialize the very _active_
participation of the _woman_ in the process, don't you think?

>a natural event which she cannot "cause to happen" -- as you say, 
>the timing of the event is not up to her. I understand that the woman
>goes through a painful ordeal during birth, but in the original 
>exchange, the woman's ordeal during birth was not the topic of 
>discussion. 
>
I didn't mention pain; I was talking about activity. The original
discussion, if my memory serves me directly, had you describing
pregnancy and childbirth as a default condition which would
continue unless the woman actively interfered. Childbirth is
not entirely passive for most of us. How many births have you
witnessed? 

>> Once labor has begun, women take _active_ steps to deal with the 
>> situation. in the absence of any such activity on her part, live
>> births would be far less common. Examples of actions which a woman
>> might take: [... deletions ..]
>
>Of course, I agree completely, the woman can take active steps to
>handle the ordeal when it happens. But she cannot cause birth to 
>occur -- as you said before, the timing is presumably determined 
>by a "dread class of gremlins". Where are we disagreeing?  

I object to the language that you use implying that birth 
just happens to the woman. 
>
>> Please try to understand that comments made in this forum which
>> trivialize the physical demands that are made on women during
>> pregnancy and childbirth are generally seen as evidence of a trend
>> which we call 'ignoring the woman' syndrome. 
>
>I said that birth is an _event_ that she cannot "cause to happen" -- the
>timing is not up to her. How does that trivialize the demands placed 
>on the woman? 

That's _not_ your original comment.
>
>> I think the comment you made about childbirth was quite insulting 
>> to mothers, in light of the efforts which most of us are called
>> upon to make during childbirth.
>
>I'm sorry if my comment offended you. But honestly, I can't see how 
>my remark could be interpreted as meaning anything other than what you
>have told me about the timing of birth. 

Apology accepted, although your understanding would be preferred.
Even though the woman may not generally influence the timing of the
onset of labor, once labor has begun, the actions and choices taken
by the woman _during_ labor may influence the time of birth. This
is far from a passive event, which your earlier remark implied.

I don't see how you can miss it.
>
>And speaking of insulting remarks, what is your opinion of recent 
>posters who compared an abortion to "buying a car" and "playing a 
>casino game"? Would you agree that those remarks are grossly insensitive 
>to the feelings of women who go through an abortion?  

I think most analogies to abortion are pretty dumb, except
for rocker's. There are varying levels of insensitivity here.
Those that pretty much add up to 
   woman = nothing

are the ones that bother me most.

muriel
standard disclaimer
Newsgroups: talk.abortion