HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,soc.history
Subject: Re: Anybody Else Read History?
Date: 14 Aug 92 22:15:51 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <1992Aug13.220752.25501@leland.Stanford.EDU>, rauchway@leland.Stanford.EDU (Eric Andrew Rauchway) writes:
> Yes, I do read history, but it's sort of my job.  I guess that still counts.
> 
> Clark is correct.  History is brimming with fascinating characters.  
> And best of all they are not subject to the stricture that binds many 
> writers of realistic fiction:  nobody can say, "C'mon, nobody would
> really *do* that. . ."  [corollary of Truth is stranger etc.]
> 
> If Clark or anyone else is interested particularly in character-oriented
> history, I suggest that he and they steer clear of the cutting-edge
> of historical scholarship, which is more concerned with relating the 
> story of classes, races, genders, ethnicities, &c., and, while often
> wonderfully written and meticulously researched, tends to be devoid of 
> recognizable literary characters as such.
> 
> Eric Rauchway                    /      My opinions are mine, and not those

I don't know that I completely agree, though there are plenty of
works like Eric Foner's _Reconstruction_: beautifully written,
complete, thorough, but lacking the "history is the story of great
men" approach that can make history more accessible, even if a
bit less accurate.  

Let me recommend Hans Schmidt's _Maverick
Marine_ (University Press of Kentucky: 1987), a biography of that 
most eccentric and entertaining of military officers, Major General 
Smedley Butler.  Butler wrote _War is a Racket_, won the Congressional 
Medal of Honor twice, served as police commissioner of Philadelphia 
during Prohibition, where he had the unmitigated gall to actually 
enforce the law equally on oth rich and poor (which got him fired), and 
engaged in actions throughout Latin America and the Far East that make 
you wish he had been working for a more reputable employer than the U.S.
Government.

_Maverick Marine_ is a balanced, carefully academic biography, and 
so in places it lacks some of the enthusiasm (and halo-polishing) of 
some of the other works about Butler, such as _The Plot to Seize the 
White House_.
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
I can make myself popular on USENET again -- all I have to say is that I'm not 
disturbed by the support for North American Man-Boy Love Association in the 
homosexual community.  Being popular at a child's expense isn't worth it.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: tmaddox@netcom.com (Tom Maddox)
Subject: Re: The nature of enlightenment
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 92 06:50:07 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

In article <JMC.92Aug13202529@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU writes:
>If Clayton Cramer were in government,
>Tom Maddox might have been able to force him to apologize abjectly
>for saying "gal" on pain of being fired.

	Professor McCarthy, you're having that "little forgetfulness problem"
again.  I said nothing at all about Clayton Cramer's saying "gal."  He can 
call himself "gal" if he wants; in fact, I wish he would.  In fact, I'll do
it for him:  Hey, Cramer, you're quite a gal.

	However, I'm in charge of esthetics, remember, not political 
correctness, so this persiflage is keeping me away from my proper duties.

	(Though, really, I think Cramer ought to apologize constantly to
everyone for saturating the newsgroup with boring irrelevancies, but that's
just an opinion.) 


-- 
				Tom Maddox
		    	    tmaddox@netcom.com
		   "I swear I never heard the first shot"
                Wm. Gibson, "Agrippa:  a book of the dead"
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: The Literary Canon
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
	<JMC.92Aug15184604@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>
	<1992Aug15.211500.2458@nic.csu.net>
Date: 16 Aug 92 00:26:21

In article <1992Aug15.211500.2458@nic.csu.net> john@csufres.CSUFresno.EDU (John Q. Generic) writes:

   In article <JMC.92Aug15184604@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU writes:
   >I will repeat my much earlier contention that there is a world culture
   >today that is predominantly founded on Western culture.  Western
   >culture itself is partly founded, before say 1450, on non-Western
   >cultures, but until say 1950 ran autonomously.  Therefore, Western

   What about the massive interest in the East that drove exploration
   during the first half of the period you mention?  Are you denying any
   influence from the New World?  I think autonomous is too strong of a
   word. 

I won't deny the possibility of some cultural influence from the
new world, but I can't think of much.  Would you count Rousseau's
writing about the noble savage as cultural influence from the New
World?  It seems to me that Rousseau made up his noble savages.
Can you think of a cultural habit from the New World that spread
through the Old World like the potato spread?  Does smoking
tobacco count for much?  The old world got the tobacco plant,
and the information that it is smokable.
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: scasburn@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Steven M Casburn)
Subject: Re: Anybody Else Read History?
Organization: The Ohio State University
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 18:18:29 GMT

In article <EMERY.92Aug17205728@Dr_No.mitre.org> emery@Dr_No.mitre.org (David E
mery) writes:

>For histories of Rome and Greece, look for books by Michael Grant.

     Another good, readable history of Rome is *The Mask of Jove* (I believe I
remember that right) by Stringfellow Barr. It is an older book -- written in
the early 60s -- but can probably be found in your local library. Barr also
wrote a history of Greece, *The Will of Zeus*, that I haven't had time to read.

                              Steve (scasburn@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: The Literary Canon
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
	<BsxpCA.M55@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca> <#d7mk#m.tmaddox@netcom.com>
	<Bt1pns.Kv8@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca>
Date: 15 Aug 92 18:46:04

I will repeat my much earlier contention that there is a world culture
today that is predominantly founded on Western culture.  Western
culture itself is partly founded, before say 1450, on non-Western
cultures, but until say 1950 ran autonomously.  Therefore, Western
culture has a special importance not only for Westerners but for
everyone.  I offered one experimental argument for this based on
asking where in the world a contemporary short story that I posted was
written.  The only two r.a.b.ers who hazarded an opinion were
mistaken, the story being by Mahfouz, the recent Egyptian winner of
the Nobel Prize for literature.

Further experimental tests are possible with (say) three contemporary
literatures, black American, Chinese and Indian.  The idea would be
to score influences in the literature in question.  The results
would depend on the subject matter.

1. Scientific.  Almost all references, other than to specifically
cultural studies, to the writings in 1450-1900 will be to Western
sources.

2. Political and social studies including polemics.  Except when
the subject is culture itself, the references will be predominantly
Western, with the one exception of Islamic countries, where
Islamic historical references will be important.

3. Literature itself, e.g. novels.  Black American literature is
predominantly Western.  About Indian and Chinese literature, I simply
don't know how it will turn out.  My impression is that the Chinese
(and Japanese) literature I have read in translation is predominantly
Western in its cultural motivation.  I haven't read enough Indian
stuff to have even an impression.

In order to do such an experiment, guidelines for what literature
to include and how to score it would be required.

Are the opinions of people on this newsgroup subject to influence
by experiment, or are they a matter of ideology?
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
From: jeff@aiai.ed.ac.uk (Jeff Dalton)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Agnostics and Athiests
Date: 12 Aug 92 16:16:59 GMT
Organization: AIAI, University of Edinburgh, Scotland

In article <1992Aug11.172758.23013@pbhyc.PacBell.COM> djdaneh@PacBell.COM (Dan'l DanehyOakes) writes:

>There's a fundamental misunderstanding here.
>
>"Free will" does not mean that you are free to do anything but what you do.
>You may freely choose what you do, but having chosen, you can not do other.

But could you have chosen something else?  If so, you were free to do
other than what you did.  If not, how can you say you have free will?
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: ummorea0@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Gene Moreau)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Looking for War books
Date: 21 Aug 92 04:42:11 GMT
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada

I read about a book called "Blue Water Navy:  World War III at sea", by
Michael Palmer, publisher Presidio Press.  I said that it was due to be
published in Jan 1992.  I asked a few book stores about it and no one had
it.  One store said that it was going to be a series of book.  The last
book store I went to, usually the on where I get the best results, checked
a list of some sort and told be that publication was either canceled or
delayed.  Does any one out there happen to know why it was canceled and if
it will ever be released at all?  If it was just delayed, does any one
know when it will be released?  I guess I could just call Presidio Press
and ask them, but this seems a little easier for the moment.  If any one
has read it I would be interested to know if it is worth my time.  Any
comparison to Red Storm Rising?   Can any one recomend any other books
along these lines?  E-mail responces prefered.  Thnx in advance.


-- 
Gene Moreau                |"But he is a lawyer, the bottom feeders of human
University of Manitoba     | kindness."
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada |  - Scott Taylor, Sports writer for the Winnipeg
ummorea0@ccu.umanitoba.ca  |    Free Press.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,soc.history
From: wismith@amelia.nas.nasa.gov (William R. Smith)
Subject: Re: History for Valley gals
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 92 16:23:10 GMT

John McCarthy writes:

>I have been brooding with Clayton Cramer's gal who didn't know
>that the U.S. had a Civil War.  The trouble with history is that
>in all those times and places too many different things happened.
>Historians who know about them like to inflict on us
>Valley girls too many of them.  The solution is to merge many of
>these events to give a coherent, inspiring and politically
>correct picture.  Here's a try at the history of America.
>
>     Invasion of America by Dead White European Males
>
>     When Columbus and the Pilgrim Fathers landed at Plymouth
>     Rock, they immediately marched to California to enslave the
>     Indians and get the gold, oppressing the Pilgrim Mothers all
>     the way.  In Denver, California they imprisoned Montezuma
>     and Sitting Bull in a convenient dungeon.  However, an
>     African-American named Abraham Lincoln tunneled into the
>     dungeon and freed the slaves.  Lincoln was later killed by a
>     ball fired from a canon built by the dead white European males.
>



Many, many moons ago "Mad Magazine" (does this count as a book reference?)
noticed the same problem.  Their solution was similar.  They broke everything
into "The Good" and "The Bad", and presented a quick history of the 20th
Century.  Hitler was Bad.  The one I remember was Eisenhower.

	Eisenhower was a very, very good man.
	Everybody loved him.
	He was elected President in November 1952,
	inagurated in January 1953, and
	took over the duties of office
	in June 1956 following the
	death of John Foster Dulles.



William Sburgfort Smith
Intel, SSD
From: sheila@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (sheila)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: MFK Fisher (Re: Bang, BANG, B-A-N-G!)
Date: 17 Aug 92 15:16:07 GMT
Article-I.D.: ut-emx.77873
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX

In article <1992Aug15.142851.19783@morrow.stanford.edu> 
francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir) writes:

...The book is *THE BOSS DOG: A Story of
>Provence* and is published in paperback by Pantheon Books of New York
>for $10. It does not hurt that the cover is one of my favorite paintings
>by Andre Derain, "Hyde Park". here is the Great American Writer of times
>just gone by.
>						Fido

Yes, I read this book earlier this summer and enjoyed it. I am now debating 
whether I want to keep it or give it away.

I was about to relate a section from the book that I enjoyed,
but shoot! it is packed away.

I finished _Howards_End_. I was about to run out and read every
other book by EM Forster like I used to do when I was a kid and
found a new author, but I must be getting old because I plan
to check out a different author.

(Mr. Forster tells so much that he gets on my nerves sometimes.
I almost put the book down. but I knew that I enjoyed the story,
and the ideas Forster was working on and was also encouraged to
finish it because it is not as heart breaking as the movie.

Anyone who hasn't read it, and is interested in the other discusion
in r.a.b. with "it is easy for a rich man to tell a poor man that
money is not important," may be very interested in reading it.)
-- 
stark raving sane!   sheila@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
From: le01167@portal.lasc.lockheed.com (Ron Nadel (x2025))
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Thomas Harris question
Date: 19 Aug 92 17:10:50 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Lockheed Aeronautical Systems Co. - Rye Canyon
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <a2824ag.714230735@sunmanager>, a2824ag@sunmanager.LRZ-Muenchen.DE (Riaan de Jager) writes...
>Hi 
> 
>I've read Silence of the Lambs, and I've almost finished Red Dragon.
>Anybody out there know his other books? Are there any others? Hope so!
> 
He wrote Black Sunday, not in the same league as the two you mentioned,
but a decent suspense read.  Its plot revolves around terrorists and
and the Super Bowl at the LA Coliseum.  He is currently working on the
sequel to Silence of the Lambs for a megabuck movie deal.  I think when
he finishes that book, he intends to write a sequel to Black Sunday having
to do with the LA's football team repeatedly getting butchered up in
public called _The Silence of the Rams_.  Gruesome.

Ron 8^>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: gjw@access.digex.com (Gregory Watson)
Subject: Re: MAMista
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 15:33:43 GMT

In article <1992Aug14.143916.21802@brtph560.bnr.ca> Paul Schroeder writes:
>After writing the five spy novels, Deighton ventured into other territory with
>_Close Up_ (about the film industry), _Only When I Larf_ (a crime spoof),
>_Declarations of War_ (short stories about WWII), and _Bomber_ (a
>highly-regarded novel about The Battle of Britain);  I have not read any of
>these four books.
>
	_Close-up_ wasn't worth it, the last three were.
_Declarations of War_ especially showed what he can do (but also where
he can go wrong).

	There are also a few other "unusual" books Deighton has done
including a cookbook called _Ou est le Garlic_, and edited a guide to
London called _London Dossier_ (approximately 1966), which although
dated is a lot of fun to read.

	He has also done a number of history books, like _Fighter_,
which I can't comment on.
>
>Years ago, Deighton was often mentioned in the same breath with John le Carre. 
>To do so today would be ludicrous as le Carre has grown to a novelist of major
>importance IMHO.  At this time IMHO, Deighton is more aptly grouped with
>thriller writers like Frederick Forsyth, Ken Follett, Craig Thomas, and Jack
>Higgins.
>

	Originally, Deighton was compared favorably to Ian Fleming.
Something to remember about Deighton is he's been writing for 30 years
now, which in some ways might date him.  Interestingly enough,
Deighton also did some work on two of the James Bond movies.  How
would he be writing the new scripts? :-)

			Gregory Watson
			gjw@access.digex.com (preferable)
			gjw1@midway.uchicago.edu (if the above fails)
From: mtaranto@shearson.com (Mark Taranto)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: a brief introduction to reading news articles and counting up to 4
Date: 15 Aug 92 01:28:36 GMT
Organization: Yale CS Mail/News Gateway


jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin) writes:

> I don't normally reply to articles like that but I feel in a rather mean
> mood at the moment...

> I said it was in four languages.  Those I mentioned by name were:

>       Syriac (raise forefinger)
>       Latin (raise middle finger)
>       English (raise ring finger)

> then notice that your little finger is still curled up and see that I also
> mentioned something else, "the original"...  reflect on what I might have
> had in mind there...

I find myself wondering if Jack is just being polite, and what he
realy wants to say is "Latin."      :-)

Mark
Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:14529 rec.humor:25926 talk.religion.misc:13922 sci.skeptic:14242
From: lfoard@Turing.ORG (Lawrence C. Foard)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,rec.humor,talk.religion.misc,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Agnostics and Atheists: god REPLIES
Date: 13 Aug 92 10:01:44 GMT
Organization: The Turing Project, Charlottesville Virginia.

In article <906ePB1w165w@comtch.spk.wa.us> mhughes@comtch.spk.wa.us (Mark Hughes) writes:
>rybicki@uctvax.uct.ac.za writes:
>> I HAVE HAD OCCASION TO REMONSTRATE WITH SOMEONE BEFORE CONCERNING THESE TOPIC
>> THIS SOMEONE IS NO LONGER.
>> I REITERATE: I DO NOT CARE IF ANYONE BELIEVES IN me OR NOT.  I LIKE WHAT I LI
>> AND THAT IS THE BEGINNING
>> AND THE END
>> OF THE MATTER.
>> KINDLY DESIST FROM THESE IDLE VAPOURINGS.
>> god
>
>  Wow, I wasn't aware that god was on the Internet.  What's his address?  
>god@heaven.vatican.it?  :-)

No no no :-)

god@berkeley.edu

God was seen there more in the 60's by trippers than he was seen in
the vatican :-)
He can also be found at
god@athena.mit.edu 
but only during MIT's end of the year parties.

>  I was also not aware that he had a C-64...

If you think government is bad just think so long a PO in heaven
takes. That C64 just arrived last week, before that they where using
an IBM Mainframe and could never figure out how to connect to an ASCII based
network.

The toilet seats in heaven cost $1,000,000,000 each, each is carefully
crafted over 1000 years by thousands of craftsmen out of pure diamond.

-- 
>>Unix/C Contract worker available 5 years C/unix work experience<<  ______
Available for Telecommuting/Travel and contracts on the T Line       \    /
in the Boston MA area. Send me e-mail for a copy of my Resume.        \  /
       -- VWIS 508-793-9568 (2400 baud), Linux support BBS.--          \/
Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:14524 rec.humor:25912 talk.religion.misc:13908 sci.skeptic:14222
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,rec.humor,talk.religion.misc,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Agnostics and Atheists: god REPLIES
From: cctr114@csc.canterbury.ac.nz
Date: 13 Aug 92 16:50:11 +1200
Organization: University of Canterbury, Christchurch, New Zealand

In article <906ePB1w165w@comtch.spk.wa.us>, mhughes@comtch.spk.wa.us (Mark Hughes) writes:
> rybicki@uctvax.uct.ac.za writes:
> 
>   Wow, I wasn't aware that god was on the Internet.  What's his address?  
> god@heaven.vatican.it?  :-)

Normally he can be found at  god@heaven.com !!

>  - Mark Hughes #1101                          mhughes@comtch.spk.wa.us
-- 
                                                                      ___
Bill Rea                                                             (o o)
--------------------------------------------------------------------w--U--w---
| Bill Rea, Computer Services Centre| E-Mail       b.rea@csc.canterbury.ac.nz |
| University of Canterbury          | or         cctr114@csc.canterbury.ac.nz |
| Christchurch, New Zealand         | Phone +64 3 364-2331 Fax +64 3 364-2332 |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:14593 talk.politics.misc:39557
From: cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: Dismiss the Liberal! (was re: The nature of enlightenment)
Date: 13 Aug 92 17:45:42 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <BHANAFEE.92Aug12174330@deimos.ads.com>, bhanafee@deimos.ads.com (Brian Hanafee) writes:
> In article <1992Aug12.192312.14674@husc3.harvard.edu> zeleny@husc8.harvard.edu (Michael Zeleny) writes:
> >Elsewhere (on rec.guns), in article <11701@optilink.UUCP> 
> >cramer@optilink.com (Clayton Cramer) writes:
# #CC:
# ##[...] the government should fix the fundamental problem of savages
# ##on the loose, rather than forcing decent people to engage in the
# ##risky business of gunfighting [...]
# 
# It's nice to know that Mr. Cramer has moderated himself somewhat over
# the years.  The primary reason I unsubscribed from ca.politics in

Moderated?  Not in the least.  It has ALWAYS been my position that
if the government actually chose to do something about violent
criminals, like lock them up after conviction, that this would be 
the best solution possible.  Realistically, the government has
no interest in locking up violent criminals.

# June, 1987 was irritation at the ongoing argument over gun control
# between Mr. Cramer and all comers.  As I remember, Mr. Cramer was taking
# a course in handling concealed weapons, and bemoaning the fact that it
# was illegal for him to actually carry a concealed weapon in this state
# without a letter of some sort from the local district attorney.
# 
# Brian Hanafee                         Advanced Decision Systems

No, I was bemoaning the fact that the laws of this state are
written in such a way that the issuance of permits is purely
arbitary.  In many counties in California, permits are issued
disproportionately to large contributors to the sheriff's 
reelection campaign.  On the other hand, there are a number of
states now where nearly anyone that can legally own a handgun,
and has taken a firearms safety class, can get a concealed
handgun permit: Utah, Washington, Idaho, Oregon, Montana, Florida,
and Pennsylvania (outside of Philadelphia).
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
When the government wins the War on Drugs, they are welcome to try their
gun control snake oil.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books