From: curt@access.digex.com (curt williams)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: high school kids
Date: 5 Jan 1993 01:51:36 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

>
>	I really can't agree with that.  A well coached collegiate wrestler,
>maybe...  
>
>>If you've spent 6 months honestly training and don't feel you can 
>>reasonably defend yourself, it's time to switch 
>
>		In my opinion, in six months you've barely begun to 
>learn how to train, never mind how to defend yourself.  How many hours
>a day do the Marines spend in hand-to-hand combat training, and how many
>in rigorous physical conditioning?

God, I hope I don't start a flame war with this.  But here goes...

First, I don't know what martial art you practice.  Some definitely
take longer to gain proficiency than others.  That's fine as long
as your primary objective is not self defense.

Second, I have problems with use of the term "art."  Martial "arts"
means different things to different people.  I'm not implying that
anyone else has to accept or subscribe to my biases.  Perhaps you
are familiar with the differences between "Do" and "Sool" (in Korean)
or "Do" and "Jitsu" in Japanese.  Do is, of course, more akin to the
term art as we usually use it.  Sool has a more practical bent.  You
may be more like Rembrant if you practice "Do," whereas I may be more
like a house painter in practice of Sool.  While they are different,
neither is intrinsically "better."  e.g.-  have you ever lived through
the horror of discovering that you've hired an "artist" to paint
your living room?

Third, contrary to popular belief, there isn't a coherent martial-arts
training program for the US military.  The closest we've had to it is
training by one of the Army corps assigned to the DMZ in Korea-- and 
they did it to foster better relations with their hosts.  Claims made
by some people to have instructed, for instance, the Navy Seals are 
false.  The military services have lots of qualified, in-house people
to do their instructing, and don't need to hire outsiders.  Mike Echanis
was the last (at least that I know of).  That doesn't mean that a bunch of
guys (acting as a "bunch" rather than officially for the armed services)
can't bring someone in for some extra instruction.    

I had a hand in driving a stake through the heart of MA training for Marine
officers in 1977.  The program was a waste of time that could be better
spent on other activities.  It was the easiest argument I ever won.  After
Echanis was killed (1980 I believe) most of the SOF programs went on the
back burner.  I think some of Mike's activities after he left Little Creek
scared and embarrassed the brass.

The thing that make Marines tough is not exotic skills, but planned,
progressive conditioning.  To answer your questions, the time spent on
physical training varies according to the billet.  Boot camp is intense,
but basic, conditioning-- sometimes up to 8 hours a day.  OCS is a
lot more physically challenging.  By the time I got a guy at Infantry
Training School, he was ready to charge.  Minimum of four hours of
hard conditioning a day.  Followed up by about 1 hour hand-to-hand.  
Self defense skills weren't played up because skills were too often
employed in town at the bars. (i.e. these guys were not always completely
sober)  --)  [how do I make a smile?]  Hand-to-hand might then be followed
by what was called "Weapons of Opportunity."

One of the great disservices we do to people is let them believe, for
instance [and not to pick on you judo people], that judo allows a "weak"
person to defeat a strong person.  I've been thrown by many a smaller
person, but never by a weak person.

I think I've flamed too long.  I still maintain that I can teach anyone
who is willing to do their part basic self defense in six months.  They're
not going to be Jon Valera or Charlie Lee or Mike Bernardo-- but they're
going to be able to fight.  300 pound, PCP crazed, drunkern ex-Marine (sigh)
swinging (what was it?) a claw hammer might take a little longer.
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts