From: afdenis@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov (Stephen Dennison)
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: Re: advice sought
Date: 26 Aug 92 22:05:00 GMT
Organization: Ancient Souls Inc.
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Aug25.233051.17620@unislc.uucp>, erc@unislc.uucp (Ed Carp) writes...
>scott_silverstein@yccatsmtp.ycc.yale.edu wrote:
> 
>: I had a mid-30's woman friend who relates a history of sexual abuse by a
>: now-deceased relative.  She'd been in a number of dysfunctional
>: relationships with men over the past decade.
> 
>It's starting to sound familiar.

I think the pattern is pretty well established. It's a cycle that needs to 
be broken. It may be broken from without or within, but is *must* be broken.

> 
>: Trying to be her friend has been a roller coaster from day 1.
> 
>Uh-huh ... yes... God, do *I* know how *that* feels!
> 

Me too, and not *just* in the case of survivors. 

>: If I behave nicely, she suspects "manipulation."  She says she
>: doesn't understand the attraction, is not sure she deserves good
>: people or things.

*My* response to this has always been to laugh. Seriously ! Often the 
person gets offended that I don't take their own low opinion of themself 
seriously, but that is the *exact* reason I do it. If they're a little 
angry, then they tend to argue irrationally to keep their self-esteem low 
and in many cases *recognize*, through their own weak argument, that they 
*are* worthy of love simply because they can't argue successfully that they 
*aren't*. Besides, I *like* to laugh. :-)

>: That maybe everything that goes wrong in her life
>: is her fault.  Calm talking gets nowhere.  She talks endlessly about "how
> 
>Of course.  She's setting herself up to fail.  The fear of failure is
>so great that she's predestinating herself.
> 

Again, Ed, a common trait *not* just in survivors. There really is no 
*trick* to get her to stop doing this. The problem with self-esteem is that 
first word. Gotta find it yourSELF, but continued hammering at her with 
data to the contrary can't hurt. Have you ever just sat down and enumerated 
the traits in her that you find worthwhile and special ? The bottom line is, 
if a person *has* no redeeming characteristics, nobody's going to take the 
time to help them heal. The very fact that you *did* should be proof of her 
worth... maybe you just need to point that out to her... that by 
questioning her own worth, she's really questioning *your* worth... 
sometimes turning the argument around like that gets through.

>: men are all scum." My confrontation with her about these behavior patterns
>: led to (I fear) a permanent end of a friendship; I lost my temper after a
>: few months of this.
> 
>Understandable.  

Agreed. 

>As for the "friendship" going away, is it *really* a friendship?  Would
>she listen to your point of view, or insist on always espousing hers?

There *is* a tendancy for survivors to be `lost' in their own problems. 
It's no crime to admit that you have reached your tolerance level and to 
bail to save yourself. Just be careful not to undo all the work you *might* 
have done by bailing out and casting *blame* for the breakup to her. 

You have the *right* to bail, nay the *obligation* to bail should the 
continued contact cause you damage. Simply tell her that you can't take the 
pressure of being her supporter anymore and that you wish her well.

>If a "friendship" is based on manipulation, "I'll hang around as long as
>you listen to my problems," then it really isn't a friendship at all, is it?

In a relationship with a survivor, it's very hard to tell *what* it is ... 
it changes from day to day. Best advice... hear *everything* ... judge 
*nothing*... think thrice and speak once. Don't consign *any* part of it to 
oblivion based on surface tension... look beneath the surface to all the 
things you were attracted to in the first place, *especially* on the days 
when the surface is *boiling* with things that disturb you.

>A friendship is give-and-take.  Sounds like you're the one doing all 
>the giving.

In *most* friendships there are periods where one friend *carrys* the other. 
With survivors, I suspect those periods are longer and a bit more one-sided, 
but it's not always that way. Again, it's *his* call unless she just breakss 
contact and then it's out of his hands.

> 
>: She had attached herself to another woman who is divorced and very bitter
>: as well, which I feel is not the best kind of person for her to be hanging
>: around with.  
> 

Tough call here, but it might be that she *is* good for your friend. Good idea 
to back off for a while and let her find out. Be there to pick up the pieces
but let her fall if she has to. It's hard to watch, I know, but it's her right 
to try and fail. 

>Sounds like it's time to lay low for a while.

I believe I just said that, albeit with a bunch more words. :-)

> 
>: My friends told me (several times) to "ditch big time."  Yet I'm not that
>: way.
> 
>What does this mean "I'm not that way"?  Are you saying that you're so
>attached to this woman that you will "stick" by her, even if it's not in
>your best interest?

I *think* that that is the definition of CoDependance, isn't it ? Unhealthy
in the extreme. If this is the case, best to back up and reevaluate *your*
reasons for being a supporter. It's *never* good to go into a relationship
with a survivor *expecting* any specific outcome. 

>  I've been there, friend.  

Ain't we all, Ed ? And, once again, not a unique situation to survivor/
supporter relationships. :-(

>There's a time to stick, and a time to bail.  

.. a time to paddle, a time to sail. :-)

{sorry, had an old `Birds' tune on my mind...}

Anyway, Ed's right here. Gotta stay until you can't, and not a moment longer !

Good luck !

-- Stephen

	"Some people live their dreams, some people close their eyes.
	 Some people's destiny... passes by"

							 -- Toto
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery