From: heflin@rtsg.mot.com (Suzanne Stratton Heflin)
Subject: Re: Atheism and Intelligence
Organization: Motorola Inc., Cellular Infrastructure Group
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 16:07:46 GMT

quest@iowegia.uucp (Steve J. Quest) writes:

>pamela@sscux1.ssc.gov (pamela gurd) writes:

>> 	It seems to me that the strongest proof of the non-existence
>> of God is the lack of obvious moral difference between religious
>> people and others.  Some of the most moral and compassionate people
>> I know are atheists.
>> 

What does the behaviour of "religious people" and non-religious have to
do with whether God exists or not?

>Pam,

>        One of the reasons why `god heads' tend to show no morals 
>or compassion is simply because they can do no wrong and suffer no 
>guilt.  You see, it is my understanding that these people will do 
>wrong, then pray for forgivness- which since god is something 
>created in the mind, they get forgiven (they get what ever they 
>want).

I am not an atheist, yet I feel great compassion for your pain that you
must have felt in response to your "ex-soulmate's" actions.  I also
feel compassion that perhaps you are using her as your only example
of a "god head."  (That's a new one!)  How many believers must one know
to make a statement that " 'god heads' tend to show NO MORALS OR COM-
PASSION" (emphasis mine)?  This is not a statement of a particularly
compassionate or non-judgemental person; it is more a statement of
a hurting person.

I am not sure what you mean by 'god head', so I will use Christian.  By
this term, I mean it in a fundamental sense, one who follows Jesus and
truly calls him Lord, and Saviour.  You say that it is your understanding
that "these people will do wrong, then pray for forgiveness."  Well,
God looks to the heart; praying for forgiveness is meaningless if one is
not truly sorry.  Surely you realize that many people play at religion;
perhaps this is what your girlfriend did.  Was Jesus truly her Lord?  It's
unfortunate that many non-believers confuse Christian and Christ.  The goal
of a Christian should be spiritual growth, growing more "Christ-like" in
attitude and behavior.  This does not happen overnight, and never completely
occurs in this life, so, of course a Christian will continue to fall into
sin.  

>        Atheists on the other hand have to bear their own guilt 
>for YEARS after they commit a `sin'.  This pain is reason enough 
>why atheists are compassionate and morally sound.  We carry our 

Another pretty b r o a d statement, wouldn't you say?

>own crosses- nobody died for our sins, we are alone to feel guilt 
>and shame.

There, I believe you're wrong; Jesus did die for your sins as well, and
you are only alone because you choose to be.  I know, because for years I
chose to be, also, until God finally convinced me that he was for me.  He's
for you, too, and whispers to you "Come home, my beloved child, and find
peace. I love you."

>        I am an atheist, and I am compassionate.  I gave up my 
>career to work in a semi-voluntary fashion for science research 
>and education.  I make very little money- but I better mankind.

>        My ex-soulmate was a believer.  She cheated on me and is 
>now living with her boss- soon to be married to him.  She took 
>from me, and left me alone.  How could a person do this to another 
>person?  She prayed for forgiveness and was granted.  I could 
>never do this to someone who loved me- because I would have to 
>forgive myself, and a wrongful act is still wrong...........sq

Yes, a wrongful act is still wrong.  Please don't assume that you
would never do this to someone who loved you; perhaps you would never
do this to someone you loved.  Unfortunately for the lover, these are
not the same.  My prayers are with you.

>(atheism means to transfix god to self.  The need is still there, 
>and the "deity" if you will is still there, it simply becomes you 
>and not something "out there".  Since we become our own gods, we 
>must live up to our own expectations.  We must also forgive 
>ourselves, something that is very hard to do when your cross your 
>own moral barriers.  Theists do cross the line often, because they 
>can cry on sunday and god will relieve them of all the guilt.  

Surely you don't think that's WHY they cross the line?!  They cross the
line because they are still sinful human beings.  If they are sorry,
however, it's true that they can cry out to God (any day of the week!)
and be forgiven.  That's why Jesus came, to provide ultimate forgiveness
and unconditional love.  It doesn't mean, however, that sin in a believer's
life has no consequence; it does!  Even more so, perhaps, for a believer
than a non-believer because of what effect it has on the work of Christ.
Like it or not, Christians are ambassadors of Christ; we tend to represent
Christ to non-believers and it is an awesome responsibility that we don't
always carry well (what did it say to you about God when your girlfriend
did what she did?)  So please don't think that we just sin as we like, cuz
we know it'll all be forgiven.  In most cases, because of the joy that we
have that we are forgiven, in response to that we tend to sin less than
before because we truly love the Lord and want to please him and remain
close; it is difficult to feel close to the Lord when one is in sin, and
that is a growing Christian's desire.

You seem to think that it is unfair that Christians have it so easy, to
be forgiven just like that!  You believe that all people should suffer
with guilt for YEARS, as you stated?  Why?  No, being a Christian isn't
easy, it's just true.

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