HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mhn@cs.brown.edu (Marian H. Nodine)
Subject: Re: 20/20 SPANKING COMPLAINT
Keywords: Long ...
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 16:50:42 GMT

I wrote:
> ... We brought her upstairs, and she refused to
>change.  She was saying "NO! NO! NO!" and refusing to do anything.  We
>then sat her down so she could calm down, then asked if she was going
>to change her clothes, or disobey us.  When she still refused to change
>her clothes, we spanked her.  When she clamed down again, we encouraged
>>her to confess (yes, we are a Christian household) that she had disobeyed,
...

In article <1992Nov5.091927.10979@sequent.com> newell@sequent.com (Donald Newell) writes:
> Totally apart from spanking, this confession business seems wrong. I
> don't know how many times I've sat through long, irritating, annoying
> arguments with my son regarding the propriety  of something he has done,
> only to realise he was right.

First, I said I *encouraged* her to confess, not that I *forced* her
to confess.  So I don't really see why you have a problem ...

Anna was spanked because she was refusing to follow through on an
agreed-upon logical consequence of her wetting her pants.  In our
house, there are rules (discussed and well-known) and consequences
(usually logical).  We set the rules, with feedback from our kids
at the time.  Once the rule is in place, we, as parents, enforce it.
If my child refuses to take the agreed-upon consequence, then she
is disobeying, and she gets the consequence of disobeying.

In terms of long, irrational arguments, we do not believe in exerting
authority arbitrarily and capriciously.  If I give my son a command,
he can bring up his side of the story in an appropriate manner and
at an appropriate time.  This is something we have worked hard to teach
him (and still do).

> Even more often, these discussions have 
> pointedly demonstrated to me how many rules are made for ensuring parental
> convenience - and not much else.
How was the above example related to parental convenience?  I'm not
sure I understand your point?

-- Misty


Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: zinna@Cadence.COM (Irfan Zinna)
Subject: Babysitter info appreciated for S.Fremont working couple.
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Distribution: ba
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 00:42:51 GMT

 I am not sure if this is the correct group to post this so I apologize if this
incorrect in advance.

A young working couple is earnestly seeking recommendations of babysitters
you have had a great experience with in the S.Fremont/Milpitas/N.San Jose
area.
 If the babysitter can also do some domestic work at our house that's great.

Would you be kind enough to call:
Sunder at 510/490/1956.
 Or e-mail to me & I will forward the info to him.
Thanks very much.
From: chirlian@fieser.brynmawr.edu (L.E. Chirlian)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Skiing in Colorado
Date: 12 Nov 1992 11:22:35 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

My husband and I would like to take our daughter on a ski vacation.
She will be ~15 months and we would like to go to an area relatively
close to Denver.  Does anyone have experiences with child care in that
area?  Please reply by e-mail as I can no longer read misc.kids
directly.  Thanks in advance...
				Lisa
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Lisa Chirlian                                  chirlian@fieser.brynmawr.edu
 Department of Chemistry, Bryn Mawr College, Bryn Mawr, PA 19010
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Xref: sparky misc.kids:28441 sci.med:20978
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 15:13:48 EST
From: Michelle Schott <MBS4@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: misc.kids,sci.med
Subject: 2 year old traumatizes front teeth

On tuesday, my not quite 2 year old son had a bad fall at daycare and didn't
catch himself in time with his hands.  He ended up mouth-first into the floor
which is indoor/outdoor carpet with no padding on top of cement.  He ripped
that piece of skin between the upper gum and upper lip ( name ?) and had a
bloody nose and big fat lip for 3 days.  This morning we had his 2 year check
and the pediatrician looked more closely in his mouth.  His front teeth are not
loose, but the gum above them is purple-black as well as the inside of his lip.
The pediatrician said don't be surprised if in 2-4 weeks his teeth start to
turn gray.  He said that the roots of baby teeth are very shallow and it does
not take much to damage them.  This was a pretty severe trauma to his mouth.
Is there anything I can do to prevent this from happening?  If they start to
turn gray, is this permanent even if he gets a root canal?  Is there a risk of
losing the teeth completely?  If they do not turn gray within 4 weeks, does
this mean that they won't due to this incident?  Any help or common experiences
will be appreciated.
                    Michelle Schott
                    Applied Research Laboratory
                    Penn State University
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: choi@wk59.nas.nasa.gov (Diana Choi)
Subject: Re: How long until no longer sick in daycare ?
Organization: NAS Program, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 92 18:33:52 GMT

(Heather A Rothwell) writes:

>I work in a daycare center.  <stuff deleted> ....
>
>Check you daycare  centers policy on what happens with ill children and
>staff.  I know that because I have NO sick leave, I have gone to work with
>many things that would have kept me out of a public school..  (Please
>don't flame me for making the children ill, I an desperate for the money. 
>If I don't work, I don't get payed.)

Yep, and for a lot of parents, that's also the reason they bring the kids
in - they can't afford to stay home with them.  Basically...it sucks.

diana
From: liz@marvin.contex.com (Elizabeth Cyr Jones)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: 20/20 and Spanking-Apology to Chris Himes
Date: 5 Nov 92 18:47:38 GMT
Organization: Xyvision Design Systems

In article <3103@contex.contex.com> liz@marvin.contex.com (Elizabeth Cyr Jones) writes:
[deletions]
>
>This Chris person is so utterly moronic as to be unbelievable, and
>it must be that this is just another case of an unattended monitor.
>
>Liz Jones


Hi all--

I was so irked by the comments of David Shackelford, that in lambasting
him, I got confused and named Chris Himes in the last paragraph. He very
nicely pointed it out to me, adding that he does not agree with D.
Shackelford in any way. I apologize to Chris for this error (I'm
mortified.)

Thanks.

liz jones
From: pburch@bcm.tmc.edu (Paula Burch)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: Diapers and the Environment (Was Re: Diaper Services)
Date: 9 Nov 1992 20:51:57 GMT
Organization: Baylor College of Medicine, Houston, Tx
Distribution: world
Reply-To: pburch@bcm.tmc.edu (Paula Burch)
NNTP-Posting-Host: roc.mbcr.bcm.tmc.edu
Summary: Lecturing to others is its own reward.
Originator: pburch@roc.mbcr.bcm.tmc.edu


Ben Wolfe writes:
|> People, North America throws out about 20 *billion* soiled disposable
|> diapers a year. One baby diapered in disposables can produce about 3,000
|> pounds of solid waste before toilet training is achieved. 

If what you care about is really the environment, why are you wasting 
time on lecturing about baby diapers? They are minimal in their effects 
in filling up landfills, etc., compared to newspapers. Newspapers take 
up at least 20 times more space in the landfills than baby diapers do, and 
will last every bit as long in a properly functioning landfill.

If you really care about the effect on the environment, then, you'll have 
a much greater effect if you work on getting people not to throw away 
their newspapers. 

What about women's absorbant menstrual products? They're in use only a 
fifth of the month, on average, but they're used for 10 times as many 
years. Clearly they are as bad for the environment as disposable diapers, 
but if you take those away, forget about "Dressing for Success" when 
leakage occurs during a business meeting--to say the least. Not to mention 
odors that many of us have quite happily left behind.

Before you waste time on lecturing people about a relatively insignificant 
part of the solid waste stream, tell us all we should be lobbying to get 
a de-inking plant built in our cities, so newspapers can be recycled.
Or teach strangers how to compost their grass clippings--also far more 
significant in the landfills, and just as long lasting in a properly 
functioning landfill.

Of course it's your business how inefficiently you wish to use your 
efforts, but I suspect that a hidden agenda of telling others how to 
parent makes this issue extra-rewarding. ;-)

Paula Burch
pburch@bcm.tmc.edu
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: allen@tessi.com (Allen Warren)
Subject: Copyright (Re: Tolerance (Re: 20/20 and Spanking))
Organization: Test Systems Strategies, Inc., Beaverton, Oregon
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 23:17:56 GMT

jj@alice.att.com (alice!jj) writes:


>Extremism *Copyright alice!jj 1992, all rights reserved, except transmission
>   in the    *by USENET and like facilities granted.      Said permission is
>  defense of     *granted only for complete copies that include this notice.
> liberty is no vice.  *Use on pay-for-read services specifically disallowed.

Maybe I should take this question out of this NewsGroup, but I was wondering,
why do you have a Copyright statement at the end of your message?  The only
reason I ask is that I read about 2 years ago that a Copyright lawyer stated
on the Net that this type of Copyright is not legally binding.  I really
don't want to start a flame war with anybody on this, but I simply wondered
why the Copyright notice.

allen
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: allen@tessi.com (Allen Warren)
Subject: Child Abuse (Was Re: 20/20 and Spanking)
Organization: Test Systems Strategies, Inc., Beaverton, Oregon
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 17:31:31 GMT

shack@cs.arizona.edu (David Shackelford) writes:

>In article <1992Nov5.093409.11146@sequent.com> newell@sequent.com (Donald Newell) writes:
> >
> > I had a frightening experience with older children & a playground.
> > A six year old was jumping from the top of the slide with my son.
> > The other mother came out and started beating and spanking and hitting
> > him. His reaction was "Please don't, please, please". 
> > That's a DIRECT quote -- I was there.
> >
> >
> > Don N.

>????????????????

>What does that have to do with the price of tea in china?

>A mother has the right to tell her child to do/not do something, and
>the right to do something about it.  I don't know what the rule was,
>the history, the child's personality.  I refuse to judge a situation
>such as this -- it's none of my business.  Your apparent eagerness
>to judge the situation shows you have not considered all possibilites.

Dave,

Your remarks are flippant and insensitive.  Notice that Don stated that the
"other mother came out and started beating and spanking and hitting."
Beating and hitting are more than just punishment.  No punishment warrants
beating and hitting.  Even spanking can be beating if carried too far.
Beating and hitting is child abuse, NOT punishment.  By the time you
would have taken to "consider all possibilities", if there is enough
time, the child could have serious physical problems (not to mention
psychological) from an adult beating him/her.  Read up on child abuse,
or spend time with someone from a Children Services Division or better
yet, observe child abuse first-hand within your own family (I'm talking
maybe a cousin or brother or sister or maybe even a spouse).  Trust me,
it's VERY ugly and the situation Don describes above is a carbon copy
of what child abuse is all about.  I've seen it and I'm still trying to
figure out how this person I thought I knew so well could be so terrible
to a child.

allen
From: xwiltberger@quark2.aero.org (Rita M. Wiltberger)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: they write the darndest things!
Date: 11 Nov 1992 10:59 -0800
Organization: The Aerospace Corporation
Distribution: world
Reply-To: xwiltberger@arecibo.aero.org
NNTP-Posting-Host: quark2.aero.org
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

I just finished reading my daughter's president report.  She is 9 and in 
the 5th grade.  One of the section's she had to write on was Beyond the 
Presidency.  Her subject is James Garfield and he was shot while in 
office.  His term lasted six months.  Anyway she writes, " Garfield left 
office when he was 49.  The president after him was Chester A. Arthur.  
Garfield spend the years after his presidency being dead.  He died on 
September 19, 1881 in Elberon, New Jersey."

I think I need to discuss this with her but I guess this made perfect 
sense to her since she had to write about Beyond the Presidency!

Rita Wiltberger
wiltberger@arecibo.aero.org
From: shack@cs.arizona.edu (David Shackelford)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: 20/20 SPANKING COMPLAINT
Date: 8 Nov 92 06:24:18 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: U of Arizona CS Dept, Tucson

In article <1d99kiINNod7@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> pburch@bcm.tmc.edu (Paula Burch) writes:
>
>shack@cs.arizona.edu (David Shackelford) writes:
>|> SOME kids don't respond to anything else but a spanking.  It is imperative
>|> that kids obey.  Therefore if spanking is the only thing that works for
>|> that child, then it is imperative that you spank.
>
>*Which* children actually respond to a spanking and nothing else?

I have known several children who deliberately disobeyed to find
out what the limits were.  They routinely broke rules which were
enforced via timeout or loss of priviledges but followed rules
which were enforced via spankings.  These were children of relatives,
neighbors, and friends I grew up with.  Some of their misbehavior
had some rather dangerous possible consequences.

>|> ....I'm not trying to tell you to spank your kids.  Don't tell me not
>|> to spank mine.
>
>Okay, and I guess we'd better not tell you not to kick your dog, either--
>it probably satisfies the same needs in you.

I wouldn't kick my dog, nor would I kick my kids.  I seperate two
forms of physical punishment (slapping hands and spanking bottoms)
from all other hitting.  For example, I will never slap a child's
face or smack her on the head.  I seperate behaviors which warrant
spanking (danger to life, escalating situation) from other behaviors
which don't warrant spanking (playing with food, drawing on walls).

>I don't believe that all spankings are invariably abusive in every situation, 
>but it sounds suspiciously as though yours would be--if you had any children 
>to practice spanking on.

I have been given authority by parents of children I babysat with
to use whatever disciplinary methods I saw fit.  The parents always
said I showed remarkable restraint.  Your opinion of my likely
childrearing techniques lacks any basis and thus looks rather
ridiculous.

>
>A responsible person would look at the evidence and try to avoid spanking 
>whenever an alternative form of discipline would give better results.

As I said in the post you quoted, SOME children respond to spanking,
SOME children respond to timeout.  Use whatever works for the child.
Set your own standards and stand by them.

> What 
>kind of person insists that children must be spanked for every act of 
>disobedience?

What kind of person insists that spanking is NEVER a valid option
when she is not present to see with her own eyes the positive
(and admittedly sometimes negative) results.  I say again, the
individual child and situation overrides any generalization about
effectiveness of the various techniques.  Use what works!!
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Getting New Contacts While Pregnant
From: kim@agx.usu.edu (Kim Barnard)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 17:05:12 GMT
Organization: Utah State University (USU)

Brighid asked about getting new contacts while pregnant.  I'm 17 weeks along 
and also wanted to get new contacts.  I went to my Ophthalmologist last week 
and asked him about it.  He said that in general your eyes change while 
pregnant and it would be best to wait until two months after the baby was 
born.  He said my contacts are close enough to my prescription and in good 
enough condition to warrant waiting.  So, I just updated my glasses and will 
get new contacts after the baby is born.  

Of course I would talk to your opthalmologist.  You might be early enough in 
your pregnancy that it would be okay.  Good luck!
From: jm5p+@andrew.cmu.edu (Judi Mancuso)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: a new fun thread??
Date: 9 Nov 92 07:02:27 GMT
Article-I.D.: andrew.kezdaX_00WBME304Bj
	<LOWRY.92Nov2145030@rotor.watson.ibm.com>
Organization: Student Employment Office, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

> 
>In article <1992Nov2.170040.7833@news.eng.convex.com> newton@convex.com
(Vicki 
>Newton) writes:
> > so c'mon, does anyone have any good stories about the insensitive things
> > that people have said to you?

One day in the grocery store (we must ALL go to the grocery store
alot.....or there are lots of strange people saying strange things in
grocery stores) when my daughter was about  6 months old, a woman was
making  big fuss over her--cooing and telling me how gorgeous she was
and commenting on her eyes, her hair, her little outfit, etc.... Then
she asked what her name was--I said "Toni"--she got this real disgusted
look on her face and said "that is a terrible name--Toni--for such a
feminine little girl, she will have to carry that name throughout her
life!"  For some reason, I began explaining, "well, her real name is
Antoinette but we call her Toni...."  She just cut me off "then I
suggest that if you must call her something shorter than her real name
then call her Ann or Annette  but Toni is a horrible name for a girl!"
and she just stomped away!  Needless to say, I can now think of 2000
things I should have said to this woman............Judi
From: llf@alice.att.com (alice!llf)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: 20/20 and Spanking
Date: 9 Nov 92 21:47:49 GMT
Article-I.D.: alice.24126
Reply-To: llf@alice.UUCP (alice!llf)
Organization: New Jersey State Home for Bewildered Kittens

In article <1992Nov8.223949.7307@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov> lauraf@classy.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Laura Floom) writes:
>which comes to an interesting point. What if you have one of each? What if
>you have 3 kids, one of whom spanking works, and the other two it is either

Well, I knew a person in this position and they used spanking on the child
for which spanking worked until that toddler started learning from other
methods.  I believe it caused no problem in their house.

>Personally, I wouldnt take advice on childrearing from anyone who didnt
>love children as much as I do. Mu guess is that you dont. Not even close!

Umm, then you probably don't take advice from many people, given that this
is a totally subjective measure and one which is even harder to judge across
the net.

Lynda
-- 
					Member HASA, Atheist-Scum Division
"The One Horseman and Three Pedestrians of the Apocalypse" - Terry Pratchet
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: M18611@MBVM.Mitre.Org (Kathy Wilk)
Subject: Re: 20/20 and Spanking
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, Bedford MA 01730
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 19:00:36 GMT

In article <1dc082INNt4i@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com>
davids@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com (David Schwantner) writes:
>you, mom, I really deserved and needed that spanking. I was wrong". The mom
>never did really continue using spanking regularly, and the girls are still
>troubled and troubling in their mid-teens (drugs, running away, etc...).
>
>Draw your own conclusions!
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>David Schwantner - Hewlett-Packard - San Diego Site
 
  David, how very disingenous your posts are!  (Draw your own conclusions,
in innocent tone - MY FOOT!)
 
 
                        K. Wilk
                        M18611@MBVM.MITRE.ORG
 
            <--********************************-->
 'Thrusting my nose firmly between his teeth, I threw him to the ground
  on top of me.' - Mark Twain
            <--********************************-->
From: sg@tredysvr.Tredydev.Unisys.COM (Susanne Gilliam)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: Was Big = Good? ...Is Hair = Sex?
Date: 5 Nov 92 17:48:04 GMT
Organization: /usr/lib/news/organization

In article <4NOV199212420035@nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov> goldberg@nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov (Patti Twigg) writes:
>  My daughter, even at the age of 3 had very short, fine hair. If
>I had dressed her in boys clothes, you would never have known she
>was a girl.  [remainder deleted...]
> 
>                                   Patti Twigg

  My 2.5 year old daughter absolutely rejects the notion of "girl babies"
and "boy babies"; to her they are all just "babies".  If you ask if one of
her dolls is a girl or a boy, she looks at you with that "boy are you stupid
today" look, and says "Baby!"  She is beginning to grudgingly acknowledge
girl and boy toddlers, and cheerfully admits to "big" girls and boys, as
well as Mommy's and Daddy's, but I'm beginning to adopt her view of infants --
they are just babies!
 
					Susanne Gilliam
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: lois@HQ.Ileaf.COM (Lois Lew)
Subject: Re: Diapers and the Environment
Reply-To: lois@HQ.Ileaf.COM (Lois Lew)
Organization: Interleaf, Inc.
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 01:09:16 GMT

In article <1816@pacvax.UUCP> lynne@pacersoft.com (Lynne Chantler) writes:
+
+If you use a diaper service, what about the pollution released into the
+environment from the delivery trucks?
+

What about the pollution released into the environment as you go to
the store to buy diapers? (or go to the store more often)

(just pointing out that this isn't a simple addition problem)

BTW, what are the health hazards from improperly washed diapers or a
dirty diaper pail?

-Lois

-- 

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   | Lois Lew                          Telephone:    (617) 290-4990 x 1766   |
   | Software Support Specialist(Lisp) Receptionist: (617) 290-0710          |