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SF-LOVERS Digest            Tuesday, 6 Oct 1992       Volume 17 : Issue 515

Today's Topics:

                    Books - McCaffrey & Wolfe (3 msgs)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 5 Oct 92 21:34:13 GMT
From: tucker@smsc.sony.com (Tim Tucker 817)
Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu
Subject: Anne McCaffrey's "Crystal Line", reviews/spoilers

*SPOILER ALERT*

I just went out and read the latest addition to the "Crystal Singer" series
over the weekend and thought I would give some words of warning before too
many other people buy it.

McCaffrey's style has gotten worse since the original two Singer books.  It
was pretty obvious that this one does not hold together as well as the
first two, and at times I wondered if maybe Anne is starting to lose it :-)

The problems:

   The story wonders around too much.  At times she would make quick
   changes, and I had to back up and re-read to make certain that I was
   following along correctly.  This points to poor writing/editing, and it
   suprised me.

   She has introduced a number of items from her other books into the
   "Singer" universe.  Most notable are from the "The Ship who Sang".  If
   you haven't read these other non-"Singer" books, you might start off a
   little confused since McCaffrey doesn't spend much time explaining these
   new items.

   The plot device used to restore "Killa's" memory was too out of
   character, occupied a large section of the book, and then seems to get
   dropped.  I didn't like this.  Unless she plans to continue the series
   with this new entity as a returning character, it was a big waste of
   time.

   The story had great potential for character development, but it was
   skimmed over in favor of time spent with the liquid metal entity (yes,
   you heard right, shades to T2).  This is what disappointed me the most,
   since the relationship/character aspect was very strong in the "Singer"
   books.

My advice, wait for the paperback version...

Tim
tucker@smsc.sony.com

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 92 17:48:08 GMT
From: merritt@provolone.bchem.washington.edu (Ethan A Merritt)
Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu
Subject: Re: Gene Wolfe's New Sun stuff

joak@ocf.berkeley.edu (Jonathan A. Kung) writes:
>1.  Who Severian's mother is.  I have a hunch that she's Dorcas,
>    tortured by the Guild for some reason, so they took Severian in.

Yes, Dorcas would appear to be Severian's mother.  I don't recall whether
there was specific indication that she was tortured by the Guild other than
the general explanation of how apprentices were often acquired.

>2.  Who that servant that ran away after passing the warning note
>    in the inn by the Sanguinary Fields is.  Is he the one that
>    married Dorcas at the end?

He says in the note (in regard to Dorcas) "You are my mother come again" -
so the implication is that he would be Severian's brother.

>3.  That old man Dorcas was mourning at the end of the Book - was
>    that her husband?

I presume so.

>4.  That business with the aliens from the other universe - in which
>    universe does Book take place, and in which ones does Urth take
>    place, and how are they related.

Huh? I don't think I understand the question.  All the action in BotNS
takes place in "this" universe.  In "Urth" Severian travels to the "other"
universe and returns.  I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "aliens from
the other universe".  I believe that all the "aliens" in BotNS are from
"this" universe.

>5.  The first Claw that Severian got - was it really "magical"?  Or
>    did it glow because of previous contact with the past Severian?
>    Or did it glow because Severian wanted it to?

Tenses will do you in here. It's past contact was with a future Severian.
But Severian'a access to the power of the New Sun seems to transcend linear
time, so I think you could explain it either way.

>6.  Why I always fell asleep after reading every hundred pages or so.

Too much to think about???

>7.  Is Severian the first Autarch with his kind of memory?  I had at
>    first thought that each Autarch had perfect memory, and each one
>    would wait until the next person with perfect memory came along,
>    and then groom him for the Autarchy.

Interesting question.  I pass on that one.

>8.  Book takes place in the VERY far future, right?

Can't really say.  As someone pointed out earlier, the decay of good 'ol
Sol is artificially induced, so the natural lifetime of the star is not
relevant.

>9.  Was the Citadel originally a "space ship"?  There were some
>    references to "cabins" for the journeyman with "portholes", and
>    Severian once says, I think, how wonderful it would be if the
>    tower just blasted off into space like it was meant to.

Definitely.  This is abundantly clear in a number of places.

>12. What the HELL is the deal with Apu-Punchau?  I don't think I can
>    get it straight without a bit of help...

[Direct SPOILER ahead]

This is part of the narrative in "Urth".  Severian returns from the other
universe into the past of this one, where he lives as Apu-punchau. However,
due to time loops he ends up being present more than once at the same
time/space coordinate.  It is explained that this can cause multiple
"copies" of the personality so duplicated to merge into a single copy.  The
"copy" of Severian which continues on into the rest of the narrative has
absorbed the Apu-punchau copy as I read it.

>13. Typhon - why didn't he remember Severian's face from before and
>    kill him when he had the chance the second time (for Typhon) they
>    met?

What makes you think he didn't? Typhon certainly seemed to think he would
gain something substantial from control of Severian. He certainly made
believable threats to kill Severian if he didn't capitulate.

>14. What was the deal with the fights in space on the ship that sailed
>    between universes?  I was kind of unclear on this (along with
>    everything else I'm asking about).

Well some of them were instigated by Abbaia's agents in an attempt to kill
Severian.  Others may just be ongoing politics as usual.

>15. Whose crypt does Severian lie in?  It's from one of his past lives,
>    right?

Yes.

>16. Severian dies several times, but is cloned by the Hierogrammates,
>    or something, right?

Again I'm not sure exactly what your question is.  If you mean are
Severian's multiple lives due to cloning then no, I don't think this is the
case.  If you mean did Severian die in the ship travelling to the other
universe (Yesod is it? I can't keep the two names straight) then I think
the answer is yes, or almost, but whether his resurrection was courtesy of
Zak or his own power I can't quite follow.

>17. Terminus Est was originally the property of that one guard in the
>    past, right?

You have finally hit a totally new one to me! What guard????

Ethan A Merritt

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 92 18:42:40 GMT
From: joak@ocf.berkeley.edu (Jonathan A. Kung)
Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu
Subject: Re: Gene Wolfe's New Sun stuff

merritt@u.washington.edu writes:
>>4.  That business with the aliens from the other universe - in which
>>    universe does Book take place, and in which ones does Urth take
>>    place, and how are they related.
>
>Huh? I don't think I understand the question.  All the action in BotNS
>takes place in "this" universe.  In "Urth" Severian travels to the "other"
>universe and returns.  I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "aliens from
>the other universe".  I believe that all the "aliens" in BotNS are from
>"this" universe.

Don't understand the question?  No problem; neither do I.  I guess I
thought that the Hierogrammates (is that them, the trio with names like
Ossiforous or whatever) were from the next universe, come back to help
Severian because of something he did in his "first", original non-NewSun
incarnation that passed Zak's test and asked that an alternate Severian be
created that would become the New Sun.  (Ow.  Sharp pains in my head.)  If
they are indeed from Severian's birth-universe (what's the name, Briah? or
is that the other one?), then I was in error.

>>7.  Is Severian the first Autarch with his kind of memory?  I had at
>>    first thought that each Autarch had perfect memory, and each one
>>    would wait until the next person with perfect memory came along,
>>    and then groom him for the Autarchy.
>
>Interesting question.  I pass on that one.

I should clarify: the reason I had that notion was that the Autarchy goes
back a long way - that means a LOT of Autarchs.  Even if they took that
special alzabo drug (I think it was alzabo) to fully get the memories of
everyone before, there is no way that kind of info could be preserved
without at least some degradation without Severian's type of memory.
However, there is a bit of suggestion that this is not what happens - that
Severian kept most of his personality after taking the drug because of the
other Autarchs' diminishment over the years.

>>13. Typhon -- why didn't he remember Severian's face from before and
>>    kill him when he had the chance the second time (for Typhon) they
>>    met?
>
>What makes you think he didn't? Typhon certainly seemed to think he would
>gain something substantial from control of Severian. He certainly made
>believable threats to kill Severian if he didn't capitulate.

Oh.  No reason.  Careless reading, I suppose.

>>15. Whose crypt does Severian lie in?  It's from one of his past lives,
>>    right?
>
>Yes.

But which one?  Do we know?  A post-Apu-punchau identity?

>>16. Severian dies several times, but is cloned by the Hierogrammates,
>>    or something, right?
>
>Again I'm not sure exactly what your question is.  If you mean are
>Severian's multiple lives due to cloning then no, I don't think this is
>the case.  If you mean did Severian die in the ship travelling to the
>other universe (Yesod is it? I can't keep the two names straight) then I
>think the answer is yes, or almost, but whether his resurrection was
>courtesy of Zak or his own power I can't quite follow.

He also died as Apu-punchau, and awoke in his tomb, I think, and that's
when I think the image of Master Malrubius comes again and talks to him.

>>17. Terminus Est was originally the property of that one guard in the
>>    past, right?
>
>You have finally hit a totally new one to me! What guard????

When Severian, in Urth, has travelled back to the past and become the
Conciliator, and is captured by some of Typhon's men, he is taken
to the future-Tortuerer's Guild and imprisoned.  One of the guards
there has a long sword described as having a square head.

And here're two more:
18. Did the Green Man ever fulfill his obligation to Severian?  Remember
    that his rescuing of Severian from the pyramid structure (?) was
    regarded by the Green Man as coincidental, so he still had to help
    Severian later on.  Is his obligation perhaps fulfilled when Severian
    is presented with the branching futures: the cold glacier one and the
    Green Man's?

19. Was the jungle area in the Garden with the three people, one woman, a
    man, and a naked man, in the hut an instance of time-travel?  I
    remember reading that Severian noticed that those people seemed to be
    ignoring or at least trying not to notice himself and Agia.

Jon Kung

------------------------------

Date: 2 Oct 92 19:10:46 GMT
From: djdaneh@pbhyc.pacbell.com (Dan'l DanehyOakes)
Reply-to: sf-lovers-written@Rutgers.Edu
Subject: Re: Gene Wolfe's New Sun stuff

Significant (in both senses) SPOILERS ahead:

joak@ocf.berkeley.edu (Jonathan A. Kung) writes:

>1. Who Severian's mother is.  I have a hunch that's she's Dorcas,
>   tortured by the Guild for some reason, so they took Severian in.

That would seem to be the case.  She's certainly his mother, and, given how
the Guild acquires 'prentices, the other is a logical deduction: but logic
does not always seem to apply.

Gene _will_ have his little mysteries (like the name of the narrator in THE
FIFTH HEAD. . .: when I figured _that_ one out, I laughed for at least five
minutes.)


>2.  Who that servant that ran away after passing the warning note in the
>    inn by the Sanguinary Fields is.  Is he the one that married Dorcas at
>    the end?

I don't believe so, no.  I believe he's her grandson.

>3.  That old man Dorcas was mourning at the end of the Book - was that
>    her husband?

Most likely... which would make him Severian's father, no?

>4.  That business with the aliens from the other universe - in which
>    universe does Book take place, and in which ones does Urth take place,
>    and how are they related.

They all take place in the same Universe (except the parts of URTH that
take place in Heaven): and it is either the distant future or the distant
past of our world.  Remember the "painting" of the "warrior": it's Neil
Armstrong on the Moon.


>5.  The first Claw that Severian got - was it really "magical"?  Or did
>    it glow because of previous contact with the past Severian?  Or did it
>    glow because Severian wanted it to?

Yes.

Gee, that's not helpful, is it?

Okay: Severian *is* the New Sun, or at least *a* New Sun.  The past
Severian is/was the present Severian, and both are/were the Conciliator, at
least briefly.  The Claw has no real significance in itself, but (like all
symbols) has a great deal of significance to those who invest it therewith.

>6.  Why I always fell asleep after reading every hundred pages or so.

For the same reason you would tend to fall asleep if you tried to eat an
entire chocolate truffle cake at once: too rich, too much.  Overload.
Brain shutdown.

>7.  Is Severian the first Autarch with his kind of memory?  I had at first
>    thought that each Autarch had perfect memory, and each one would wait
>    until the next person with perfect memory came along, and then groom
>    him for the Autarchy.

There's no particular reason to believe that other Autarchs have had
Severian's peculiar memory.  (BTW, note that Severian's memory is not as
perfect as he believes it to be.  There are hints about this.)

>8.  Book takes place in the VERY far future, right?

Right.  Or maybe the VERY distant past.  Or both.

>9.  Was the Citadel originally a "space ship"?  There were some references
>    to "cabins" for the journeyman with "portholes", and Severian once
>    says, I think, how wonderful it would be if the tower just blasted off
>    into space like it was meant to.

The Citadel was not *a* spaceship.  The individual *towers* were, and may
well still be, space ships.


>10. What happened during the time between Shadow, I think, and the next
>    part, at the Wall, that separated Severian and Jonas from the rest?

Read CLAW more carefully.  It's in there.

>11. Did that guy who helped Severian and A-wozname and Dorcas out in the
>    lake of the dead (or whatever it was called) die in that episode at
>    the end of one of the books with the witches and Apu- Punchau?

Yes.  Or maybe that should be "maybe."

>12. What the HELL is the deal with Apu-Punchau?  I don't think I can get
>    it straight without a bit of help...

Try the afterword to URTH; that will help a great deal.

>13. Typhon - why didn't he remember Severian's face from before and kill
>    him when he had the chance the second time (for Typhon) they met?

He does and he does.  In his own inimitable way.

>14. What was the deal with the fights in space on the ship that sailed
>    between universes?  I was kind of unclear on this (along with
>    everything else I'm asking about).

So was Severian, and he's your only source of information.  Take it as it
is.

>15. Whose crypt does Severian lie in?  It's from one of his past lives,
>    right?

What past lives?  They're all one.  Follow the subjective time lines...

>16. Severian dies several times, but is cloned by the Hierogrammates,
>    or something, right?

No.

>17. Terminus Est was originally the property of that one guard in the
>    past, right?

I hadn't thought of that.  Good reason for me to re-read these...

Dan'l Danehy-Oakes

------------------------------

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