From: bskendig@netcom.com (Brian Kendig)
Subject: Re: EVIDENCES OF THE EXISTENCE OF ALLAH (THE GOD)
Organization: Starfleet Headquarters: San Francisco
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 06:24:18 GMT

irfan@maxwell.ece.wisc.edu (Irfan Alan) writes:
>A HEAVY BLOW ON THE HEAD OF ATHEISTS, 
>NATURALISTS AND MATERIALISTS

Ow!  ("Oh, I'm sorry, this is Abuse.  Arguments are two doors down.")

>A TRANSLATION from the COLLECTION OF RISALE-I NUR
>"RISALAT-UT TABI'AT" (A TREATISE ON NATURE),
>AUTHORIZED by Bediuzzaman Said Nursi.

Irfan, this whole post reeks of arrogance and narrowmindedness.  I
honestly hope you learn a thing or three from the many followups
you'll doubtlessly see here.

>AUZUBILLAHIMINASSAYTANIRRACIYM BISMILLAHIRRAHMANIRRAHIYM

Gesundheit!

>THIS TREATISE explains through Nine Impossibilities, 
>which themselves comprise at least ninety impossibilities, 
>just how unreasonable, crude and superstitious is the 
>reality of the way taken by those naturalists who are 
>atheists. ... I am ready to explain in
>detail and prove through clear and decisive arguments to 
>whoever doubts it that these crude, repugnant and
>unreasonable impossibilities are the necessary and 
>unavoidable results of their way; in fact, the very gist
>of their creed.(1)

I take offense at that.  You have no right to start off an argument by
calling my beliefs unreasonable, crude, and superstitious.  If you
feel this way after we have discussed matters, then you're entitled to
your opinion, but starting off this way will earn you no respect.

>(1) What occasioned the writing of this treatise were the
>attacks being made on the Qur'an by those who called
>everything that their corrupted minds could not reach a
>superstition who were using nature to justify unbelief,
>and wery vilifying the truths of belief in a most aggressive
>and ugly fashion.  Those attacks stirred up in my heart 
>an intense anger which resulted in those perverted
>falsifiers of the truth receiving vehement and harsh
>slaps.  Otherwise,  the  way  generally  followed  by the
>Risale-i Nur is a mild, polite and pursuasive one.

If the unbelievers had felt the same way about your beliefs, then you
would have had a war on your hands.  Is your religion only mild and
polite when it is not being questioned?

>Their prophets said, "Is there any doubt about
>Allah, Creator of the heavens and the earth? (2)
>
>   BY DECLARING through the use of a rhetorical
>question that there cannot and should not be any
>doubt about Allah SWA Almighty, this verse clearly
>demonstrates the divine existence and unity.

Huh?  You mean by saying "How can anybody not believe that Santa Claus
exists?", I have therefore caused him to exist?  Your words make no sense.

>Oh falsifier of the truth, you are bound to say 
>either that the causes of the universe create 
>beings, for example, this animal; that is to say, 
>it comes into existence through the coming together 
>of causes, or that it forms itself, or that its 
>coming into existence is a requirement and necessary 
>effect of nature, or that it is created  through 
>the Power of One All-Powerful and All-Glorious. 

Bleah.  Let me try to boil this down:
(1) The animal was created by other things.
(2) The animal created itself.
(3) The animal was created by nature.
(4) The animal was created by a benevolent, omnipotent deity who is
      exactly as described in the Quran.

If these are the only choices you see... hmm.  I can't even think of
how to respond in any coherent way that I think you'd understand.

>Since reason can find no way apart from these four, 
>if the first three are definitely proved to be 
>impossible, invalid, and absurd, the way of Allah's 
>Unity, which is the fourth way , will, necessarily 
>and self evidently and without doubt or suspicion, 
>be proven true.

And if we show the fourth to be absurd, does this likewise mean that
the answer must be one of the first three?

Why is it that the more devout someone is, the more that person seems
to have lost any semblance of proper logic and debating skills?  Or,
in this case, to have lost all tact?  I mean, really!  Do you honestly
think atheists are all that evil?  Doesn't it even occur to you that
we might have actually thought through what we believe?

-- 
_/_/_/  Brian Kendig                             Je ne suis fait comme aucun
/_/_/  bskendig@netcom.com                de ceux que j'ai vus; j'ose croire
_/_/                            n'etre fait comme aucun de ceux qui existent.
  /  Nolite te bastardes     Si je ne vaux pas mieux, au moins je suis autre.
 /    carborundorum.                                             -- Rousseau
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