From: faber@loon.cs.wisc.edu (Ted Faber)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics
Subject: Re: Cerebus thoughts
Date: 15 Apr 92 18:40:56 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: U of Wisconsin CS Dept

In <1992Apr12.174554.16893@yang.earlham.edu> douga@yang.earlham.edu (Doug Atkinson) writes:

>[stuff about Astoria deleted]
>In the long run, it seems that subtlety isn't the way to _really_ grab 
>power in Estarcion.  Weisshaupt was subtle, and look where he is now.  If 
>he'd had the balls to use the cannons more quickly... (well, if he had, 
>reading 230 issues of blank pages would be dull).

	At what point do you think he could have used the cannons to effect
	control of Estarcion?  I don't see any obvious time when that would
	have been useful.

>	The really successful (in the long run, again) leaders seem to be 
>those who directly use power.  Look at some of the leaders we've seen:
>
>	K'cor: "I attribute my success to the fact that I'm the only one 
>in my city not addicted to mind-numbing drugs."

	This nutbar is a "really successful leader"?  He controls one city
	full of drugged-out zombies.  Unless there's more to him than we've
	seen I don't find him a compelling example. Definitely in the Duke Duke
	Duke Leonardi class - ahead because he's smarter than his subjects,
	but of little consequence when the real powers of Estarcion are
	considered.

>	Cirin: Very direct.  Also the main power in Iest, Lower Felda, and 
>who knows where else.

	If you mean direct in the sense that she's willing to use phyisical
	force, yeah, true.  But notice that she had the brains and subtlety
	to let Iest chew itself to bits with all the goings on in Church
	and State before invading.  She didn't conquer it so much as occupy
	the rubble.  If anyone conquered it Cerebus did, economically.

>	Lord Julius: All right for now, but he "confuses staying one jump 
>ahead of the opposition with real leadership." Sadly, it'll probably get 
>him in the end.

	That's Weisshaupt's quote.  There may be more method to L.J.'s madness
	than we've seen.  Although he seems inept, he's consistently not
	only in the game, but doing well.  It's not at all clear to me how
	much of his shennanigans are for show, and how much are to make his
	opponents believe that he's a buffoon.  He's one of the few we've
	seen whose never *lost* much.

	He may be the most subtle, and successful of the bunch.

>	Duke Leonardi: Upid-stay or-fay _ure-shay._  Dumb luck.  I don't 
>give him long odds either.

	Yeah, he seems to be a moron, held up by the fact that he's
	somewhat smarter than his constituents.  But he makes no claims to
	subtlety either.

>	Elrod: As direct as you get, and "the most charismatic and popular 
>swordsman in Estarcion."  Not a leader, but he's successful.

	Successful what way?  In that he's a pawn for Julius or the Roach
	in the same way Weishaupt and Astoria tried to make Cerebus a pawn?
	Consider Elrod placed in the position Cerebus was in when made Pope
	after being Weisshaupt's pawn.  Would he have had the brains and
	gumption to set the ascension in motion and topple Weisshaupt the
	way Cerebus did?  Nope, he'd have just enjoyed all the perks of
	being Pope and jumped to Weisshaupt's tune.

	I see Elrod as a profoundly unsuccessful entity, and actualy a
	relatively good foil for Cerebus.

>	Weisshaupt: A manipulator.  Burning in hell, if Cerebus had his way.

	Weisshaupt's fatal flaw, if you will, was an inability to perceive
	Cerebus as a competent adversary.  It's evident from their first
	meeting in whatever early issue, and continues until Weishaupt sees
	him on his deathbed - and even then he doesn't accept that Cerebus
	outmaneuvered him.  Compare this with Julius, who never underestimates
	anyone for long.

	Weisshaupt didn't lose because of his method (manipulation), but
	because of his execution.

>	Astoria: Another manipulator.  Rotting in prison, isn't she?

	Care to take bets on whether she plays an important role in the
	unfolding storyline? 

	Arguably the *most* direct character in Cerebus is the Roach, who
	invariably is being exploited for the ends of others.  His constant
	control by others seems to be the best argument against direct use
	of power.
>	
>	The evidence seems to bear out Weisshaupt: the mundane is 
>triumphing over the sublime, "like a wonderfully allegorical play that 
>suddenly turns into a Punch and Judy show" (or whatever the exact line is).

	Remember that's just Weishaupt's opinion, and he clearly
	underestimated Cerebus, at whom the quote is directed.  I read that
	as Weishaupt's sour grapes, not Dave making any kind of statement
	about reality or the story.

>			--Doug

"It's one of the angels of the apocalypse.  You know Death, War, Famine,
 Plague and, ah..."
 "Belgian sitcoms?"   -- Mr. Nobody and the Fog

-- 
Ted Faber		Figment at Large		  faber@loon.cs.wisc.edu
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"The ability to quote is a serviceable substitute for wit." -- Maugham
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