HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: raan@techunix.technion.ac.il (Ran Ever-Hadani)
Subject: Re: Israel and Kuwait in the Spotlight
Organization: Technion, Israel Institute of Technology
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 06:50:07 GMT

I don't really have the time to take part in tpm discussion these days,
but a correction is due here:

In <1992Sep11.090154.13381@discus.technion.ac.il> davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami) writes:

>In article <EGGERTJ.92Sep10221531@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu> eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu writes:

>>>   >What is your opinion of the recent elections in Lebanon and Yemen?
>>>
>>>   Do you mean those that were boycotted by all the Christians and held
>>>   under the rifles and tanks of Assad?
>>
>>One should also point out that the Israeli-dominated Southern Lebanese
>>Army enforced an election boycott in their areas.  Funny that a
>>democratic Israel would be against democracy.

>Well, who forced the Christians of Beirut? the long hand of the Mossad?
>I guess the Christains in the north followed their northern brethren
>and enforced it on the others. Israel is not interested in giving the 
>Syrians the facade of democracy to their occupation in Lebanon - so 
>it did nothing to overturn the SLA decision.

I think it would help if people based there arguments on fact.  Actually,
Israel and the SLA were more than willing to let the elections take place
in the security zone, as a part Israel's current attempt to normalize life
there.  (I am not going to elabolrate here on why this is an Israeli 
interest.  Send me e-mail if you want more).  As it happens it was the 
Lebanese government who refused to have ballot stations in the SLA 
controlled area, and installed them just outside it.  The SLA retaliated 
by closing the zone on election day, preventing people from getting to 
the poles.

I am not expressing an opinion here regarding any of this.

-- Ran
-- 
Withdrawal from the territories is in Israel's vital interest.  I will not 
feel any less at home in Shiloh or Bethlehem if I need a visa to go there.

                                   Moshe Dayan  (quoted from memory)
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:19846 talk.politics.soviet:7835 soc.culture.greek:8741 soc.culture.europe:8296 soc.history:8182
From: bgdv706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (Noam Tractinsky)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: How Much Did The U.S. Get?
Date: 14 Sep 92 02:40:13 GMT
Organization: University of Texas @ Austin

In article <1992Sep10.085110.4534@mcs.kent.edu>, rayes@Snake.mcs.kent.edu (Sandra Rayes) writes:

> Ha!  I heard, from a Kuwaiti woman mind you, that the young ladies
> of Kuwait live in fear that the Emir might spot them sometime and
> demand to marry them...then divorce them the following week.  It
> seems mut'ah is a fashion with our Emir...


	Can someone corroborate this horror story?

 

> Sandra.


Noam
From: davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: A naive question about the law of return
Date: 10 Sep 92 19:05:06 GMT
Organization: Technion, Israel Inst. of Technology

In article <25703@castle.ed.ac.uk> egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson) writes:
>If my ancestors converted to Judaism, does this give me the right to
>emigrate to Israel? Is this logical? Why (not)?

Yes, if they would have done the Orthodox Giur (conversion) which is
very hard and demanding. This is logical if you understand that Jewish
nationality is determined by religion. Jews figured out that if a person
wants nadly to share his destiny with AM ISRAEL (the people of Israel)
as to undego the troublesome process (which includes circumcision for
men) and suffer many plights and prosecution. [Your ancestors would
have qualified for the gas chambers if they had converted] They are
worthy of being full participants in the nation's rights also.

The Law of return almost mirrors Hitler's criteria for prosecution of 
Jews - since Israel wants to ensure that everyone who is liable to
vicious prosecutions because of his Jewishness will be saves by the 
Jewish State.

This is a logic harvested by agony og generations and by fir and blood.

David.


>--
>=======Jeremy Henderson========egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk===============
>Q: How many user support people does it take to change a light bulb?
>A: We have an exact copy of the light bulb here and it seems to be
>   working fine.  Can you tell me what kind of system you have?


-- 
=============================================================================
  David Ben-Ami (irc: bigdav)      |   "I can resist anything but Temptation"
  s2780369@Techst02.Technion.Ac.Il |       Oscar Wilde
  davidba@Carmel.Technion.Ac.Il  davidba@Moav.Techniona.Ac.Il
From: rdtst+@pitt.edu (Richard D Thorne)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: The Ugly Palestinian
Date: 9 Sep 92 21:43:30 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

|         If Hanan Aswari is the Good Palestinian,
|         and Ahhmed Jebril is the Bad Palestinian,
|         can you guess who Yassar Arafat is?
| 
| --
| 
| pssres12@ucs.usl.edu    Gerard Vignes, USL PO Box 42709, Lafayette LA 70504 
| 

     A person in need of a shave (Every thing above the neck thank you)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: pssres12@ucs.usl.edu (Vignes Gerard M)
Subject: Re: Post-Sadam Iraq
Organization: Univ. of Southwestern La., Lafayette
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 03:53:24 GMT

In article <1992Sep14.025812.19594@das.harvard.edu> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
>In article <1992Sep14.005008.28373@usl.edu> pssres12@ucs.usl.edu (Vignes Gerard M) writes:
>>In article <1992Sep13.232533.16611@das.harvard.edu> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
>
>|>(And just so you'll follow up, and maybe actually discuss these
>|>issues, heres some tpm flame bait, pick one and flame, as long as you
>|>answer a few of the above questions:
>|
>|>1.  Jordan is Palestine
>|>2.  Jerusalem is an Arab city
>|>3.  Pick one: (Iran/Kuwait) is a (disgrace to/model for) the arab world.
>|
>|	Adam is becoming more sophisticated
>|	in his efforts to attract our attention :-)
>
>Thanks, but you could at least discuss some of *the* issues?  :)
>
>(See, I use the definite article here to refer to the relevant issues
>that Vignes so kindly ignored. ;)

	I didn't say that you'd said anything worth saying,
   just that you'd said it in a more interesting way than usual.

						Don't get too cocky,

						Gerard Vignes

-- 

pssres12@ucs.usl.edu	Gerard Vignes, USL PO Box 42709, Lafayette LA 70504 USA

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: rda834x@nella4.cc.monash.edu.au (J. Zufi)
Subject: Re: are jews racists?
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 05:35:28 GMT

u9066624@cc.uow.edu.au (Tippu Hassan) writes:


>hi all 

>it seems to me that the palistinians are having to go through the same hell 
>jews went through under the nazi's.
I wouldn't compare the palestinian problem with the nazi/jew analogy - 
just remember the the nazi systematically and deliberatly slaughtered
millions of people (not just jews) - the situation in Israel is not even
close to that stage, and will never come to that.

>i think once palistine is created, the  muslims shouldn't have 
>   any problems in recognizing israel.
The Palestinians will NEVER recognize Israel - they have tried five times
in the past 50 years to annihilate Israel, and they will never stop
trying. Arab children are brought up to hate Israel, Israeli children
are brought up to fear the Arabs. Until that mentality changes, there
will never be peace, let along recognition in the Middle East.

-- 
[  Jonathan Zufi                  | rda834x@nellads.cc.monash.edu.au   
[  Robotics & Digital Technology  | zuf@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au          
[  Monash Univeristy, Caulfield	  | "Why?" Topic on English Literature exam. 
[  Melbourne, Australia		  | "Why not?" Student answer, received 99%
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Post-Sadam Iraq
Date: 13 Sep 92 23:25:33 GMT
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University

In article <1992Sep13.183844.19717@usl.edu> pssres12@ucs.usl.edu (Vignes Gerard M) writes:
>	Dare we contemplate such a thing?

How can we not?  No one lives forever; lets start thinking about what
happens when Saddam dies, whether it be from natural causes, or by a
coup, or in a US bombing raid.

Will the US be in a position to influence the course of Baath party
politics?

Will the US be in a position to influence the course of a civil war?
Will it be worth risking American lives to do so?

Who will support who in a civil war?  Iran will support the Shiites,
will Iran intervene militarily, or just supply the Shiites?

Will anyone support the Kurds?  

What will Kuwait and Saudi Arabia do?

Will Jordan or Syria try to grab some land? 

How aobut Turkey>

(And just so you'll follow up, and maybe actually discuss these
issues, heres some tpm flame bait, pick one and flame, as long as you
answer a few of the above questions:

1.  Jordan is Palestine
2.  Jerusalem is an Arab city
3.  Pick one: (Iran/Kuwait) is a (disgrace to/model for) the arab world.

)

Adam
Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all.  How true that is.
From: gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israel and Kuwait in the Spotlight
Date: 11 Sep 92 13:44:58 GMT
Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman)
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group

In article <1992Sep10.031604.13080@cs.brown.edu> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
>
>No it is not, if these interests don't call for the destruction of
>Israel. If I am not wrong, the communist party is not allowed to
>run in the US, and you cannot compare the danger they pose to
>the US with the danger the Hamas etc pose to Israel. Arabs vote
>for their representative, and they have two deputy ministers in
>the new government.

You are wrong. The Communist Party USA is legal, is alive, and
does run candidates. In fact, it's one of the few legal communist
parties left in the world. It's membership was reputed to be about
1/2 FBI undercover agents in the days of the "Red Menace" however. :-)

Gary
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: sethr@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (seth.r.rosenthal)
Subject: Re: Elghani flames again (JUSTICE/EQUALITY IN...)
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 16:03:07 GMT
Summary: while we're talking about anti-semitism

In article <1992Sep15.044859.11281@das.harvard.edu>, adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
> 
> Throughout the history of Jewery in Europe, Jews were seen as
> different by the Christian majority.  They were not seen as normal, or
> avarage.  They were different, and worshipped a different god.
> They were often accused of being disloyal to their country.  My
> grandfather, despite being born and raised in Russia, was never seen
> by his neighbors as a Russian. He was a Jew. Different. Disloyal.
> Persecuted for it.
> 
> When Israel was founded, the idea that Jews were somehow not loyal to
> their country got a new focus; Israel.  Now there is somewhere to
> point fingers.  Hes not a loyal American, hes loyal to Israel.  It
> stinks of the old anti-Semitic accusations of disloyalty.  It stinks
> of Nazis claiming that Jews can not be Germans.
> 
> 


John, while your listening to Adam, know that in Germany one
of the reasons Jews were hated (quoting now from Johnson's
citation in History of the Jews) because they were
"a Middle Eastern affliction in Europe".

		Seth Rosenthal

Disclaimer: All opinions are my own not my employers'.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: hallam@zeus02.desy.de (Phill Hallam-Baker)
Subject: Re: Who are the Occupiers?
Reply-To: Hallam@zeus02.desy.de
Organization: Deutsches Elektronen Synchrotron, Experiment ZEUS bei HERA
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 23:56:35 GMT

In article <1992Sep6.165554.26010@discus.technion.ac.il>,
davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami) writes:

|>In article <1992Sep4.204226.1451@dscomsf.desy.de> Hallam@zeus02.desy.de
|>writes:

|>>Your mythology might have more credibility if the bible explained just when
|>and
|>>how the Jews managed to lose the ark of the covenant. That must have been
|>quite
|>>a difficult one to explain to the chief priest eh? It is obvious that the
|>bible
|>>does not tell the whole story there and it is equally obvious that it is not
|>an
|>>impartial account (to put it mildly!)
|>>
|>>The greek myths contain passages which were deliberatly inserted to give a
|>cause
|>>for invasion later. Ever wondered why Hercules went about winning trials of
|>>strength with local chiefs then leaving the administration of the city "in
|>>trust" for his descendants?
|>>
|>
|>Mythology or not mythology the fact is that Jews were related to this
|>specific piece of land for 3000+ years , the last 2000 mainly spiritualy
|>although throughout the ages Jews maintained small communities in cities
|>like Safed,Tiberias,Hebron and Jerusalem and billages in teh Gallilee.
|>
|>You may argue that Israel should return the lands to the Cannanites if
|>you want to fight ownership. Palestinian Arabs are VERY LATE invaders
|>occiupiers who have ENORMOUS NERVE to claim anything in this country.

What you are saying is that Jews have occupied that area for approximately 1/3
of the past three millenia which is as far back as anyone can judge the issue.
Perhaps you will on this basis support Englands claim for the return of our
French possessions which have been held for an equal proportion of the time
since the Romans left?

|>The Arabs that sat here before the Jews came will be welcome as Israeli
|>citizens (and are welcomed) - they have no national rights here.

The claim that any culture has the right to raise itself to the status of law is
completely false. That has been the root of political oppression since Soccrates
was executed for opposing the cultural values of the state. There are no nations
and there are no states, only individuals.


--

Phill Hallam-Baker
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:19838 talk.politics.soviet:7827 soc.culture.greek:8733 soc.culture.europe:8288 soc.history:8174
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history
Subject: Re: Yes, They All Remember Cyprus.
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 15:54:26 GMT


In article <Bu2GrB.GsE@news.cso.uiuc.edu> varnavas@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (varnavas constantine) write:

>I do not know all the facts about the ethnic fights between Greek and Turkish
>Cypriots between 1958-1974.  All I listen to is the Greek version of the events
>which I do not claim to be the most objective.  But I think you too, Besime,
>only listened to the Turkish version, which I do not think is objective either.

I stand in my own door in my own silence, smiling at your grace.

 Peter Moorhead reporting from the village of Skyloura, Cyprus. 
 Date : 1 January, 1964. 

 IL GIARNO (Italy)
 
 THEY ARE TURK-HUNTING, THEY WANT TO EXTERMINATE THEM.

 Discussions start in London; in Cyprus terror continues. Right now we
 are witnessing the exodus of Turks from the villages. Thousands of people
 abandoning homes, land, herds; Greek Cypriot terrorism is relentless. This 
 time, the rhetoric of the Hellenes and the bust of Plato do not suffice to 
 cover up barbaric and ferocious behaviors.

 Article by Giorgo Bocca, Correspondent of Il Giorno
 Date: 14 January 1964

 DAILY HERALD (London)

 AN APPALLING SIGHT

And when I came across the Turkish homes they were an appalling sight.
Apart from the walls, they just did not exist. I doubt if a napalm bomb
attack could have created more devastation. I counted 40 blackened brick
and concrete shells that had once been homes. Each house had been deliberately
fired by petrol. Under red tile roofs which had caved in, I found a twisted
mass of bed springs, children's conts and cribs, and ankle deep grey
ashes of what had once been chairs, tables and wardrobes.

In the neighbouring village of Ayios Vassilios, a mile away, I counted 16 
wrecked and burned out homes. They were all Turkish Cypriot homes. From
this village more than 100 Turkish Cypriots had also vanished.In neither village
did I find a scrap of damage to any Greek Cypriot house.

Date: 1 January, 1964.

 DAILY TELEGRAPH (London)
 
 GRAVES OF 12 SHOT TURKISH CYPRIOTS FOUND IN CYPRUS VILLAGE

 Silent crowds gathered tonight outside the Red Crescent hospital in the
 Turkish Sector of Nicosia, as the bodies of 9 Turkish Cypriots found
 crudely buried outside the village of Ayios Vassilios, 13 miles away, were
 brought to the hospital under the escort of the Parachute Regiment. Three 
 more bodies, including one of a woman, were discovered nearby but could
 not be removed. Turkish Cypriots guarded by paratroops are still trying to 
 locate the bodies of 20 more believed to have been buried on the same site.

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: Israel and Kuwait in the Spotlight
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 13:50:54 GMT

eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu writes:
#jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
##   Arabs who are citizens of the State of Israel actually may and do vote
##   for political leaders who actively represent their interests, 
#
#Jake, you know as well as I that the Arab political are not allowed to
#question the Zionist nature of the State of Israel.  Thus for example
#if in the future the Jews become the minority in Israel (as is the
#fear of many Kachists), the Arab parties would not legally be able to
#exert their otherwise normal democratic right to take over the
#government.  

Not accurate. There is no law against electing Arabs to any position
in Israel's political hierarchy. Remember that the anti-Arab KACH
party was barred (twice) from running, so don't claim that Arab
parties are discriminated against.

#Thus your claim that Arab Israelis are allowed to vote
#for political leaders who represent their interests is false.

No it is not, if these interests don't call for the destruction of
Israel. If I am not wrong, the communist party is not allowed to
run in the US, and you cannot compare the danger they pose to
the US with the danger the Hamas etc pose to Israel. Arabs vote
for their representative, and they have two deputy ministers in
the new government.

#I should also point out that the Israeli policy of deporting
#"troublemakers" extends to Arab politicians of the West Bank, and
#often the only trouble some of the deportees made was actively
#representing the interests of the Palestinian Arabs.  Thus your claim
#is not only false, it is hollow.

Again, you are stretching the "interests of the Palestinian Arab"
to inciting violence and attacks on Israelis. And anyway, how many
deportations have taken place in the last year or two? The decision
to deport twelve Palestinians was recently reversed.

##   as
##   opposed to all the other Arab states where elections are non-existent,
##   total shams or merely electing figureheads who have no authority
##   anyways.  The Arab voting-block was not insignificant in the recent
##   Israeli elections.
#
#What is your opinion of the recent elections in Lebanon and Yemen?

And what about Algeria? Not to mention the important, powerful Arab
countries? Lebanon and Yemen are an exception. Also, I understand
that most Christians in Lebanon did not vote, as a protest to the
Syrian occupation of Lebanon, which makes the elections a joke.

-Danny Keren.




Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: khaled@zeus.csc.ncsu.edu (Khaled El-Sayed) 
Subject: Re: How Much Did The U.S. Get?
Originator: gr-kme@druid.csc.ncsu.edu
Reply-To: khaled@zeus.csc.ncsu.edu
Organization: North Carolina State University
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 16:25:55 GMT

aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh) writes:

>I wonder how much money and/or oil the United States received
>for planning and participating in the invasion of Kuwait versus
>its full-scale war against Iraq?

According to a very recent report, the costs of the Gulf War is $620
billion, you may guess how much the US will get out of that of course.

>I also wonder how Saddam benefitted out of the deal - is he
>allowed to remain Iraq's President for life still?

>I wonder still, when the people in the U.S. will learn of
>these deep, dark secrets of the CIA ... will they blindly
>support the re-election of such a dictator?

Well, do you think that any elected person can cut the tails of the CIA? It
does not matter whether it is Bush or Clinton or Kennedy, the system is there.

>Reminds me of the movie, JFK, when it was said that it doesn't
>matter how many lives are lost or what the sacrifices are -
>as long as the business of war and corruption continues ...
>if it was $80 Billion back in the 60's and 70's, what the
>going rate today?

>When are people going to wake up?

It depends on when they go to sleep and how much they like it :-)

Khaled

-- 
Khaled M. F. El-Sayed              |     e-mail: khaled@science.ncsu.edu
Department of Computer Science     |     Voice : 919-515-7533 (Office)
North Carolina State University    |             919-515-7346 (Lab)
Raleigh, NC 27695-8207, U.S.A.     |     FAX   : 919-515-7382
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Subject: Re: JUSTICE/EQUALITY IN OCCUPIED PALESTINE (AFTER ETHIOPIA) 
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 02:46:29 GMT

In article <1992Sep12.081411.2405344@locus.com> jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes:

# There is DISCRIMINATION in the government of the jewish nation. European Jews 
# are first class citizens,  Palestinian Jews 2nd, Yemenese Jews 3rd, black
# Jews 4th or 5th,..., Palestinian Christians next, and Palestinian Muslims 
# are in worst. UPI reports equality-demanding demonstrations by Black Jews 
# (shown below).  Black Jews migrate to Occupied Palestine (Israel) 
# targeting equality paradise;  unaware that the government there uses them
# to absorb billions of *OUR* AMERICAN MONEY.   I gift my greatest SYMPATHY 
# and wishes to all none-first class citizen jewish cousins whom are the
# ADDITIONAL VICTIMS of the brutal occupation of Palestine.  -jle 

	[ article from newspaper deleted - dlm ]

	Just to set te record straight, there are plenty of non European
Jews (many of whom are "black") who are not second class citizens in
Israel.  THere is some discrimination, but not to the extent portrayed
here.

	The Israeli government, with the full support of its citizens,
world Jewery, and yes, even George Bush, went to great lenghts to
rescue these Ethopean Jews.  John Elghani would do well to study how
they arrived in Israel, and how a lot of people (including "European"
Jews) in Israel are not doing so well economically.  Of course it is
Elghani's henchmen friends which have forced Israel to expend
resources on defense and not social needs.

	The "problem" with the Ethiopian Jews has to do with Jewish law,
and the fact that for centuries they did not know what the proper
Jewish laws were in relation to family customs.  Since Elghani knows
nothing at all about Judaism or the "problem" with the Ethiopian Jews,
one can only wonder why he chose to comment like this.

	The Israeli people have welcomed them with open arms, and continue
to do so.
--

David Makowsky
makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast