From: aaron@atlantis.uucp
Subject: Re: Start alt.fantasy-- was Who killed SF?
Organization: Atlantis Communications, Edmonton, AB, Canada
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 16:14:56 GMT

Crow's Friend Timmy (chuq@Apple.COM) wrote:
: morrow@fnalo.fnal.gov (Elmo the Stunt Elk) writes:
: We can agree to disagree. I'll only state that if a book uses fantasy
: constructs like magic, it's fantasy, unless the author decides to try to
: make them SF by rationalizing them (Anne McCaffrey's attempt to rationalize
: her dragons and etc come to mind. IMHO, it's still fantasy, no matter how
: Annie postures, though).

So fantasy is what Chuq points to and says, "That sure ain't SF."

: Alternate history is Alternate History. It may be marketed as SF, but that
: doesn't mean that it's SF in terms of the literary structures. It could in
: many cases simply be mainstream fiction with no fantasy element at all, as
: in something like BRING THE JUBILEE.

I'd almost have to agree here, having read stuff like "No Spot of Ground" in
Asimov's--some Alternate History just doesn't belong in Science Fiction.

: >	In short, I still maintain that USENET does not need an artificial
: >separation.

: Agreed completely. On the other hand, you don't turn an elephant into a
: camel simply by calling it so. I still claim that magic is magic, and by
: definition magic is a part of fantasy, and you can't turn it inot SF simply
: by changing the lines on the map.

Be that as it may--my definition of SF was always "Speculative Fiction", which
is the handy catch-all term for Science Fiction, Fantasy, Horror, Magic
Realism, Alternate History, and anything that deviates from consensus reality.
That's what >I< thought this group referred to, especially given the lack of a
corresponding fantasy group.  I've seen endless discussions of Robert Jordan
here, who I do not, somehow, think writes Science Fiction.

I missed the beginning of this thread, but from the subject I would hazard that
someone suggested creating a >separate< fantasy group, and using this one only
for Science Fiction.  I don't consider this a bad idea for in some cases--for
instance, some people will only read fantasy and not Science Fiction, and so
would be served better by such a group.  Some people read only Science Fiction
and no fantasy, and so would like this group to be cleansed of the festering
infestation.  I presume, by your paragraph above, Chuq, that you don't propose
to separate rec.arts.sf, but you still want a separation between Science
Fiction and fantasy.  Go ahead.

: >	I'm curious, though:  What is a non-SF alternate history, other
: >than possibly Alvin Maker?

: There's a lot of alternate history going on in the historical fantasy world,
: where the fantasy elements are either very tenuous or completely missing.
: Stuff like Judy Tarr's upcoming LORD OF TWO LANDS, or Garcia's SPIRAL DANCE,
: or a lot of Morgan Llewllyn's stuff. 

And there's the stuff like "No Spot of Ground", who merely do a "what if?",
like "what if Edgar Allan Poe fought in the Civil War?".  Where's the Science
Fiction in that?

Then there's Antony Swithin's "Perilous Quest For Lyonesse" series, in which
there happens to be a large island called Rockall in the middle of the
Atlantic.  Okay, I guess the fact that a large number of animals native to
Rockall respond to telepathic commands may push it over the line to Science
Fiction, but otherwise it takes place in the 14th century or so...

: In reality, Alternate History isn't *anything*, the way SF or Fantasy is.
: It's not so much genre as a fictional context. You can use Alternate History
: to write just about anything, including mainstream, SF, Fantasy, Horror,
: Romance, Mystery or Western, depending on what you do WITH the AH elements.
: So trying to wedge all those things into SF just because SF uses Alternate
: History as a construct is an oversimplification.

On the other hand, I recall Asimov stating something to the effect that Science
Fiction could be used to write any of the other types of stories(specifically,
he mentioned Romance, and part 3 of The Gods Themselves as an example).  Is
Alternate History any different, then?  Does it make an AH story part of
another genre, any more than it does any type of SF?

I consider AH to be another genre included in Speculative Fiction, although it
often resembles another kind sufficiently to be considered Science Fiction or
Fantasy or whatever else instead.

-- 
---Alfvaen(Still looking for "October's Baby")
"I'm gonna follow my feelings...I'm gonna follow my senses...I'm gonna follow   my compass!"  --Lone Justice
Current Album--Bruce Cockburn:Sunwheel Dance
Current Read--Robert J. Sawyer:Far-Seer
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written