HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: petere@tesla.mitre.org (Peter D. Engels)
Subject: Re: reefing headsails, why not roller furling?
Followup-To: rec.boats
Organization: The MITRE Corporation
Distribution: na
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 17:55:43 GMT

In article <Brwqs4.Cq7@helios.physics.utoronto.ca>,
stefan@helios.physics.utoronto.ca (Stefan Mochnacki) wrote:
> 
> 
> lubenow@scivax.stsci.edu writes:
> 
> >   Why not roller furling?  The answer is all of the above.  I'm used to 
> > hanked-on headsails.  Several of my friends have roller furling, and they 
> > seem to have not-so-good light air performance, as their sail is only a 130
> > or so, and no heavy air performance (too big, so they roll it up and start
> > the engine.) 
>   .
>   .
>   .   (lotsa good stuff deleted)
>   .
 
> 
> 
> Well, a boat which I may well  buy in the next few weeks
> is a C&C 30 which has an interesting setup: a 100% "working" jib is mounted
> on a furler on its own wire and halyard, about 6-12 inches  below and 
> parallel to the forestay. This is supposed to be easily lowered and 
> coiled if one wants to hank on a standard foresail (the standard #1 and #3 
> are almost unused; the current owner never used them).
> 
> I'd be interested to hear comments about:
> 
> 	(a) the pros and cons of such a set up, as opposed to a "permanent"
>             furling setup on the forestay, or reefing (as above),
> 
> and     (b) the C&C 30 Mk I as a boat (this one is a 1974; there are
>             others in the 1973 - 78 age range which I could buy). 

I have owned and sailed a 40 ft. wooden yawl since 1974, which has just the
rig you describe - except that my jib is a 150% Genoa.  The genny sets on
its own, 1X19, luff wire and is not attached to the forestay.  With this
rig, If the wind is too strong for the full genny, I can either reef the
genny (not much, about a 20% reduction is all that's practical - but that's
true of all such rigs, because as the sail is reefed the jibsheet lead is
usually to far outboard for the sail to set well), reef the main, or
finally, just roll up the genny, leave it in place and hank on a working
jib.  I won't have one of the new "permanent" roller furlers, as they all
have one serious drawback:  When the wind picks up to the point where you
are overcanvassed, even with both sails reefed, the only way to put on a
smaller jib is to unroll the genny and drop it.  In 30 knots of wind,
trying to muzzle a big genny on a heaving foredeck is just asking for
trouble.  My rig has worked perfectly now for 18 yearsall over New England
and over to Nova Scotia, and its a rig I highly recommend.  The furling
drum attaches to an eye about 6 inches aft of the forestay; when the
working jib is used, it has its own, separate halyard.  The presence of the
rolled-up genny can cause a belly in the leading edge of the working jib,
but its only used in winds strong enough  that a "perfect" sail shape is
not that important.

Can't comment on the C&C 30, however.

-Pete
From: Laughlin.Hughes@f764.n153.z1.fido.zeta.org.au (Laughlin Hughes)
Sender: UUCP@ship.wimsey.bc
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Why multis aren't real
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 23:34:00 -0800

TEH/From: mwhhlaw!tim (Timothy E. Hollingsworth)
   /Organization: Martin Wade Hartley & Hollingsworth

   /have also pointed out a couple of things.  First, the light weight "beach"
   /cats
   /- Hobies, Super cats, etc., are tricky to sail.  They tack poorly and can
   /dump
   /in a heartbeat.

        Hi Tim - I'd say the beach cats require some different
*techniques* than monomarans, but I wouldn't say they're
"trickier"...  And I'd say it's very rarely that I've ever seen
experienced racers blowing their tacks! Novices yeah, but the same
is true on monomarans eh?  And yeah, I could probably turn my
Tornado over in 10 knots of wind, but I'm assuming a beginner
won't be sailing the boat by themselves?

        My kids had their first sails on cats, and they find the
monomarans "tippy" and "tricky" <smile>...

TEH/The usual full battened mains can fool you on trim.  These
   /boats move easily, which can make a novice think that real progress is bein
   /made, even with poor technique.

        Agree.  Maybe.  I use telltales with windows on the sails,
as well as on the leach.  Plus of course, when you *do* lose
laminar flow, the boat decelerates very fast also, so that's
another "tell tale"...

        Finally, once a novice learns how to right their small cat,
imagine what a breeze it'll be for them to deal with a dinghy!

        Fair winds
        Laughlin Hughes

ps... when did you want to charter that big cat? Privilege OK?
St.Martin? Har!

 * OLX 2.2 * Catch the wave...o......o......o......o......o..S2S
From: lars@imhfhp16.epfl.ch (Lars Bomholt)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Buying LASER sails ...
Keywords: sails, prices
Date: 30 Jul 92 15:28:16 GMT
Organization: Ecole Polytechnique Federale de Lausanne


Hi everybody.

In a recent article in this newsgroup (Used LASER or so)
I read that a new LASER sail goes for about $330 in the
US. Here in Switzerland they charge SFr.750, i.e. $570
at the current exchange rate. I find this a bit escessive
for a mass-produced sail with no extraordinary quality (shape).

Is there a mail order company in the States where I can
get one? If somebody knows one, please mail me its
address and Fax number.

Thanks.

Lars Bomholt (lars@dme.epfl.ch, FAX ++41 21 803 2753)



Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: lubenow@scivax.stsci.edu
Subject: Reefing headsails, was Why only one main?
Organization: Space Telescope Science Institute
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 22:09:52 GMT

   Beginning this season I bought a new suit of sails for my Catalina 27
"Spica", from Hild.  I sail single handed in the Chesdsapeake Bay, and tend
to be rather conservative reguarding how much canvas I have up, but don't 
have room for nor can afford a separate sail for each gust.  Skipjacks and 
other workboats have reef ponts on their jibs, so I decided to give it a try.  
I talked directly to the sailmaker, and we settled on a regular 150 genoa for 
light air and a 110 genoa with reef points to make it about a 90 percent sail.  
The sailmaker recommended a grade heavier cloth than a normal 110 would be 
made of.  It's intended to be a "moderately heavy weather" sail, NOT a 
storm sail.
   So far I'm pleased with the results.  The jib works well in 15-20 kt winds,
(full main at the lower end, reefed main at the higher end), and in 20-25
the reefed jib and reefed main really power the boat to windward smartly, boat 
upright, well ballanced, and running a good 5 kt or better even into the chop 
such winds kick up here in the Bay.  (Not an ounce of rail meat on Spica!)  
Reefing it is not as easy as jiffy reefing the main, but I haven't completely 
worked out the technique yet.  The tricky part is as someone said to tie in 
the reef points well enough that some flapping doesn't shake them out.  I use 
the same sheets, they end in a snap shackle.  
   So far, I think reefing the sail is less work than bending on a new one 
would be, and there's no risk of loosing a sail overboard.  And the job is 
done mostly sitting in the middle of the foredeck; only the tack snap shackle 
and a couple hanks to unclip up at the point.  I'm nowhere near the top of the 
learning curve yet, but even so I think reefing headsails is very much worth 
considering, especially if you have them designed with that in mind.

                                                           Andy Lubenow.   
Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: spencer@panix.com (David Spencer)
Subject: Finn lifeboat
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 13:42:12 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix, NYC

EPLUS17@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu (Richard Engelbrecht-Wiggans) writes:

>Please excuse my ignorance, but I didn't realise that the Olympics included
>events for boats big enough to carry a lifeboat (other than the sort of toy
>plastic life boat that my kid takes along whenever we go boating.)  Just how
>big is a Finn?
...
>	Canadian sailor Hank Lammens won and then lost his Finn class
>yachting race Tuesday when he was disqualified for not having a lifeboat
>on board.

Maybe they have to carry a Soling....

A Finn will fit in a large shirtpocket (it's a one-man dinghy). That
_has_ to be "lifejacket" (which is required equipment in every class).

dhs   spencer@panix.com   Sonar 404
Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: escmar@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg (Mar Siew Cheong)
Subject: Differential GPS
Organization: Nanyang Technological University - Singapore
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 04:59:59 GMT

 I believe starting a discussion on DGPS in this newsgroup
 would generate sufficient interests to keep the discussions
 alive.

 It was reported that within the next few years, ships and
 boats will be able to navigate in virtually all U.S. harbors
 with accuracy to 5 meters or better.

 DGPS data will be received "piggy-backed" on the regular
 directional finding/homing signal broadcast by beacons.

 For those who know about DGPS, could you please tell me
 I can get/buy a copy of the RTCM SC-104 format specifications
 concerning DGPS corrections data.

 Thanx alot.

 siew = |-)
From: frenette@ast.com (Dan Frenette)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: Man Overboard again, Re: Passage Making: Fast or slow?
Date: 24 Jul 92 16:33:30 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: AST Research, Inc. Irvine, CA

As to the second topic,  I try to not to comminent on postings and comments
of safety based on hull count.  It's a stupid argurment that dated 
itself in the fiftys.  I've sail multis and monos for many years (more 
than 10 and more than 10,000 miles).  You don't out run bad weather!
The only thing speed offers is option of where to take that weather and
then only if you are aware of it coming.  Normally a multi doesn't motor
enough faster than the mono to mater.  If you are dealing with bad weather
it is best to deal with it before the winds pick up.  I'd much rather anchor
in no wind than 50 knots and so would the guy next to me.  I'm less likely
to hit him or drag up is anchor.

If you don't get back to basic seamanship you're dead meat waiting to happen.
20 knot servival conditions? Give me a break.  A lead boat on a beam sea of
say 6 feet (looks like 10 feet when your in it; more likely size of 20 knot
winds) in can sync with the waves and roll.  So what?  If they closed 
the hatches it wouldn't be the end of the boat. Maybe the rig and 
the sails but not the boat.  It's not uncommon knowledge that much 
larger vessals (>100 feet) went down in beam seas this way.

As for man overboard, if you feel you are risking you crew and you vessel
you need to go to a good sailing school.  And don't forget your significant
other.  We do hat drills often without regard to conditions.  It works and
we can get on unexpected hat in 30 knots in under 2 minates.  We aren't
risking our lives because people know what to do and how to do it.  Now
I must admit 19" of freeboard does help but the biggest problem is getting
back to it.

If the boat went down right after the mark, the boats to help would have had
their spins up or going up.  Does give some food for thought.  Do you 
stop of let the guy behind you stop?  Seems to me if you were the guy 
behind you should do it and the time adjustment would help you out.  
But then if you're behind would you smart enough to understand that?  
If your in front, oh well you should stop and get somebody or you should 
be DSQed.

The biggest problem with manoverboard isn't drowning.  The cold will get to
you first.  On a racing boat you are rarely setup to deal with this.  Yes
you do have many bodies on board but often not warm with limited blankets
and so forth to deal with the problem.  If more boats picked up the crew then
more boat have more resources do deal with the crew.  
If one boat gets 6 crew out of the water there is knowthing they can do 
for more than one or two of them.  If you see someone overboard they are 
in more trouble than you think.  The 50-50 rule is if the person in 
the water is 50 years old in the water for 50 minates then he has 50% 
chance of making it.  If any boat doesn't stop to help DSQ them!

That's my 25 cents worth.  Doesn't buy much does it?
From: Laughlin.Hughes@f764.n153.z1.fido.zeta.org.au (Laughlin Hughes)
Sender: UUCP@ship.wimsey.bc
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: "Passage Making: Fast or
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 09:16:00 -0800

SG/From: sgrenander@NASAMAIL.JPL.NASA.GOV (Sven Grenander)
  /Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory

LH>         Matt, two multi's flipped on the coast of France last year.
  > Bay of Biscay, near shore, in storm conditions.  One death on one

SG/Do you happen to know what kind of multihulls they were - custom,
  /Lagoon, Privilege ... ?

        One was the 11 metre Louisiane, the other a 9.90 metre
Maldives.  Both production boats, built by Fountaine-Pajot.

SG/Any write-ups in the standard sailing magazines (Cruising World,
  /Yachting, Sail ...) ?

        Nah Sven... I read `em all just about, and the only article
I recall seeing was in the June/July 1991 issue of Multihulls World
(English language version of a French mag).

        I dug the issue out, and I see it was five dead.  Not four.
On the Maldives, not only was the Skipper killed by a blow to the
neck, but a second crew member was thrown free and never found.
Winds were 40-50 knots in both incidents.  Apparently, F-P now
installs a plaque in the cockpit which gives recommended sail
areas for a given wind strength.

        Laughlin Hughes
        Toronto


        Laughlin
        Toronto

 * OLX 2.2 * Catch the wave...o......o......o......o......o..S2S


From: thatchh@hplsla.hp.com (Thatch Harvey)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 18:55:14 GMT
Subject: Re: Financing, Volvo Diesels, Duoprops, & Steigercraft
Organization: HP Lake Stevens, WA
Newsgroups: rec.boats



   I have a couple of thoughts on the purchase of a new boat. 
I don't want to discourage you from a new boat purchase, but I personally
have determined that it makes more sense for me to purchase used boats.
Unlike David Letterman, I will order my reasons from most important.
        1. I keep getting bigger boats, so no boat is ever the one that
           I will have forever.
        2. There is a substantial investment in outfitting a new boat above
           and beyond the purchase price. dinghy, canvas, electronics, more
           electronics, fenders, lines, bigger holding tanks etc.  Most of
           this stuff is done on a used boat, and you pay very little for it
           then.
        3. Insurance, taxes and payments are a lot higher on a new boat.
           That money could be used for fuel, other toys, trips, investments.
        4. The depreciation curve seems to be exponential.
        5. Is the extra nn% cost really going to increase your ability to
           enjoy the water by a commensurate amount?  There certainly are
           issues of reliability, lower maintenance etc, but there's always
           someone willing to lose his shirt on a repowered boat or a low
           hour boat.
     
   My last decision was based on level of accommodation. For a given amount
of money we could afford, the used boat gave us ten more feet of boat than a
new one, and it has been worth it.

    I understand however, how exciting it is to buy a brand new thing that
no one else has messed with. If you go that way, don't torture yourself about
the decision the way I do. You made a good one, have fun with it!

                 Thatch Harvey


    %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
    % Thatch Harvey                                                    %
    % uucp: hplabs!hplsla!thatchh        domain: thatchh@hplsla.hp.com %
    % Hewlett-Packard              Lake Stevens Instrument Division    %
    % Lake Stevens, WA                                                 %
    % (206) 335-2083            31' Baunsgard   1972 twin engine       %
    %      flying bridge, lapstrake, wood cruiser "ENDLESS LIST"       %
    %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%





Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: wkl5819@zeus.tamu.edu (LEVERICH, WILLIAM KENT)
Subject: More Olympic Race Results
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 18:22:00 GMT

Here are some more results from the Olympics regatta.  Now the paper is only
listing the first two finishers in each class.

Men's Lechner
Regatta 3 - 1. Spain          2. Austria
Regatta 4 - 1. France         2. United States
Regatta 5 - 1. Spain          2. Austria
Regatta 6 - 1. New Zealand    2. Fiji
Regatta 7 - 1. New Zealand    2. France

Women's Lechner
Regatta 3 - 1. Italy          2. Norway
Regatta 4 - 1. Italy          2. New Zealand
Regatta 5 - 1. New Zealand    2. United States
Regatta 6 - 1. France         2. New Zealand
Regatta 7 - 1. China          2. Norway

Finn
Regatta 3 - 1. New Zealand    2. Sweden
Regatta 4 - 1. Greece         2. Canada

Men's 470
Regatta 3 - 1. Spain          2. Britain
Regatta 4 - 1. Spain          2. Finland

Women's 470
Regatta 3 - 1. New Zealand    2. United States
Regatta 4 - 1. Spain          2. United States

Flying Dutchman
Regatta 3 - 1. United States  2. New Zealand
Regatta 4 - 1. United States  2. Spain

Tornado
Regatta 2 - 1. France         2. United States
Regatta 3 - 1. United States  2. Austria
Regatta 4 - 1. New Zealand    2. Netherlands

Europe Dinghy
Regatta 3 - 1. Norway         2. New Zealand
Regatta 4 - 1. Norway         2. Spain

Star
Regatta 3 - 1. Sweden         2. Germany
Regatta 4 - 1. United States  2. Canada

Soling
Regatta 4 - 1. United States  2. New Zealand
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kent Leverich
Lido 14 #3549
Texas A&M University
WKL5819@ZEUS.TAMU.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: roy@alanine.phri.nyu.edu (Roy Smith)
Subject: Re: What can rip a mainsail?
Organization: Public Health Research Institute (New York)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 14:29:00 GMT

bwb1@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (BRENT W. BENSON) writes:
> a 43' Beneteau we chartered in the BVI last week had a very questionable
> main...i.e. half torn batten pockets, worn off stitching, lots of
> previous repairs, oldish yellow color...and it ripped out while beating
> in 15-20kt with one reef.  The charterer's representative said that we
> had contributed to the abuse of the sail

	That's a load of crap.  15-20kts is what you get every day in the
BVI.  If the sail tore in those conditions, it's the sail's fault, not
yours.  Please tell us the name of the charter company, so I can be sure to
avoid them.  From what you describe, the sail was trash to begin with and
should have been replaced long ago, but the owner was simply too cheap to
do so.  For a 43 foot heavy cruising boat, 15-20 kts is nothing.  I'd even
say you were being conservative putting in the reef.

	Charter boats get a lot of use; a typical boat in the charter trade
(and its sails) might see as much use in 2 or 3 years as a privately-sailed
boat might see in 10 or 15?  The owner simply has to expect that he will
have to keep pouring money into the boat to keep it in good condition.
Sure, charter boats may get some abuse, but they also get lots of perfectly
normal hard use, and to blame the failure of an old beat-up sail in normal
conditions on the charterer is just bullshit.

	If I had to guess, I'd say the boat used to be in the Moorings
fleet (they use lots of Beneteaus).  The Moorings probably kept it for 3
years and then kicked it out of their fleet.  The owner then took the boat
and put it up for charter with a small outfit, with the original sails.  If
the boat's only been out of the Moorings fleet for a year, that means it
has 4 year old sails.  Sails just don't last 4 years in the charter trade.

	What should really be going on is the owner should be compensating
you for the time you lost on your expensive vacation because he didn't
properly maintain the boat.
-- 
roy@wombat.phri.nyu.edu (Roy Smith)
Public Health Research Institute
455 First Avenue, New York, NY 10016, USA
"This never happened to Bart Simpson."
From: jeffh@nonsuch.EBay.Sun.COM (Jeff Huntington)
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Subject: Re: rules question
Date: 27 Jul 92 22:11:21 GMT
Reply-To: jeffh@nonsuch.EBay.Sun.COM
Distribution: world
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: nonsuch.ebay.sun.com

In article 5916@panix.com, spencer@panix.com (David Spencer) writes:

> 
> All of the above assumes no funny sailing instructions; defined terms
> _scored_.


You mean like "The start/finish line is restricted"?  That is my main question 
here.  If the start line is not restricted, I can't see any rule violation.
If it is restricted, passing back over it after the start is an infraction.

Jeff Huntington
Newsgroups: rec.boats
From: EPLUS17@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu (Richard Engelbrecht-Wiggans)
Subject: Re: Olympics Sailing News/Results
Organization: C.C.S.O.
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 02:15:38 GMT

Please excuse my ignorance, but I didn't realise that the Olympics included
events for boats big enough to carry a lifeboat (other than the sort of toy
plastic life boat that my kid takes along whenever we go boating.)  Just how
big is a Finn?
========================================================================
    BARCELONA, Spain (UPI)
 
            >>> lotsa non-sailing stuff deleted <<<
 
                               ------
	Canadian sailor Hank Lammens won and then lost his Finn class
yachting race Tuesday when he was disqualified for not having a lifeboat
on board.
	Lammens finished fourth in the first heat, and placed first in the
second heat, when he was dropped in the standings for the infraction.
	``I'll just have to work harder to charge up the standings,'' Lammers
said.``There'll be no rest on the last day.''
                               ------
 
              >>> more non-sailing stuff deleted <<<