HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mwertz1@cc.swarthmore.edu (Melanie Wertz)
Subject: sexism
Organization: Swarthmore College
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 16:31:48 GMT

This is my first look at soc.culture.jewish, so I'm not sure who is this
board's intended audience.  

I was born Jewish and I had an Orthodox Jewish education.  I have abandoned
Judaism because I came to recognize that it is sexist to the core.  The
Tanach is a patriarchal body of literature which completely invalidates the
history, experience, and contribution of women.  Jewish law, at least
Orthodox Jewish law, is degrading to women.  Is there anyone out there who
feels the same way?

Melanie
From: backon@vms.huji.ac.il
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: sexism
Date: 14 Oct 92 21:48:10 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Hebrew University of Jerusalem

In article <8CSRBCJ6@cc.swarthmore.edu>, mwertz1@cc.swarthmore.edu (Melanie Wertz) writes:
> In article <1992Oct13.225947.27119@tc.cornell.edu>,
> bai@msiadmin.cit.cornell.edu (Dov Bai-MSI Visitor) writes:
>>
>> In article <XVRRBDYX@cc.swarthmore.edu> mwertz1@cc.swarthmore.edu
>> (Melanie Wertz) writes:
>>
>> [long disccusion as to why Judaism and Orthodoxy in particular are
>>  sexist deleted for sake of brevity]
>>
>> >There is no "rational" explanation as to why I feel sexism as defined by
>> >Western culture is wrong.  There is no "rational" reason to believe the
>> >Torah is true, either!
>>
>>
>> Melanie,
>>
>>    You are right in pointing out that there is no rational reason
>>    to believe that the Torah is true. However, in this discussion
>>    you are in no way better than the Orthodox people you care
>>    to criticize so much: They operate on one set of feelings and
>>    you on another. How do you expect this discussion to ever become
>>    constructive ? It is likely to degenerate into no more of an
>>    exchange of feelings between all sides ( including Conservatives
>>    & Reforms ).
>>
>> Dov
>>
>
> I am posting this discussion here because many of the women who read
> postings here have been brought up amidst the same Western values which I
> was brought up with.  I am sure I am not the only one who is disturbed by
> Jewish sexism.  I am sure there are women who want to believe in both an
> egalitiarian philosophy and in traditional Judaism, and I want to start a
> dialogue about how they are reconciling them.  If Judaism is going to
> survive within Western culture, if it is going to be an ideology which
> satisfies women and keeps them from assimilating, then it needs to address
> these contradictions and attempt to resolve them in some way.
>
> If your essential point is that Judaism can have no place in the life of
> someone who has been touched by Western feminism, then you are right-- my
> posing is unconstructive.  But I think there are women out there who are
> struggling to find a balance, and I want to hear what they have to say.
>
> By the way, do you agree that Judaism is sexist?
>
> Melanie

Melanie,

Have you ever read the book by Brayer: THE JEWISH WOMAN IN RABBINIC LITERATURE,
1986, Ktav Publishing, NY. ISBN: 0-88125-070-8  ? I glanced through it today
and was quite impressed. This may rebut your insistence that Judaism is
inherently sexist.

Josh
backon@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL



Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish
From: michals@fuw.edu.pl (Michal Szleper)
Subject: Re: A personal experience in Poland
Organization: Warsaw University Physics Dept.
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 08:02:10 GMT

>I just returned from a trip to Poland where I tried to find
>remnants of Jewish life. There's nothing left, even the
>cemeteries were destroyed. 

Where did you look for those cemeteries?  I can assure you
there are still some Jewish cemeteries in Poland.

>
>     Any comments will be appreiciated- to the s.c.j. or to
>the above address.
>
>
>     Yaakov Gladstone.
>
>


+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|     My opinions are my opinions.   But facts are those of everyone.     |
+------------------------------------+------------------------------------+
|     Michal~ Szleper                |     "All you need is love, love,   |
|     (michals@fuw.edu.pl)           |      Love is all you need..."      |
+------------------------------------+------------------------------------+
From: jeybbu@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Heroes in the Hebrew Bible
Date: 16 Oct 92 02:35:42 GMT
Reply-To: jeybbu@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology

Clair Bacher of Stanford asks about the moral values of the ancient
Hebrews based on the fact that biblical characters all have flaws.

It is an old question.  It suggests that the Biblical texts are
accurate pictures of real humans who experienced G-d, not perfect
creatures who were demigods.  It also suggest that the concept of
a perfect G-d was at odds with other contemprary cutures which depiced thier
gods as all too imperfect and governed by whim....
The prime aspect of morality for the Hevbrew (or Jew) was feality to
the one G-d.  Acts of disobedience were punished.  G-d defined morality,
acted in history, and was able to make specific covenants with the nation of Israel.   Morality came from G-d.  

Julian Yudelson
Adonoy who elohim.....
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: On Polish Anti-semitism
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 17:20:26 GMT

In article <matthew.718793582@mugga> matthew@stats.mu.oz.au (Maciek Blasikiewicz) writes:
>roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:

>>>to cry the same way as about Protocols ? Did you cry or were you
>>>at least embarassed with so popular "Polish death camps " ? What

>>Ah.  One vague statement in a newspaper, one misplaced adjective, 
>>and you consider that equivalent to the _Protocols_?  Please explain.

>Oh no. Not by a long shot. In the US, Canada, and Australia, in many
>newspapers, TV news broadcasts, and so on, for the past few decades the
>term "Polish Death Camps" has been consistently used and even defended
>from criticism. (Only last Christmas I heard it used on TV, complained,
>and got a response essentially telling me off.) There was even a TV
>documentary about Jews and Christians in Australian TV, "Children of
>One Father", where we could see a history lesson for jewish teenagers
>presenting the Poles, not Germans or Nazis, as those who instituted and
>run the death camps. I even have a jewish friend here (with university
>education) who believed this.

Well, this is all news to me; in all my reading on the Holocaust, I have
*never* encountered the term.  I *have* encountered writers who claim 
the camps were situated in Poland because the Poles wouldn't mind, but 
in all cases this has been followed by convincing rebuttals, usually
from Jewish writers.  The usual term for those who make that claim is
"paranoid" (see Dawidowicz, for example).

Nowhere in anything I ever read did I get the impression, or find anyone
asserting, that the Poles built the camps.  I would like to see a 
transcript of that TV show if possible -- this is a very serious charge, 
after all -- and find out who did that.

>>That the _Protocols_ are sold with the blessings 
>>of a church is a *very* serious indictment of that church, and calls
>>for further investigation.

>How do you know the _Protocols_ are sold with the blessings of the
>church? Did you ask someone in authority in the given church, or is it
>merely your guess, Roger?

Have you ever seen a book sold in a church bookstore that was *not*
authorized for sale by that particular parish's director?  Church
bookstores are not general bookstores, after all.

Roger
>
>
>MB
From: sethr@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (seth.r.rosenthal)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Amsterdam recommendations
Date: 12 Oct 92 20:57:36 GMT
Article-I.D.: cbnewsl.1992Oct12.205736.989
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories

I will be in Amsterdam (really Utrecht) for POSIX meetings
next week.  Can anyone make some recommendations for
a Synagogue for Simchas Torah?  I will be arriving early
Sunday morning, staying for just under a week.

Also appreciate recommendations on sites of interest
Jewish and otherwise.  I expect to visit the Anne Frank
house, dockworkers' monument, and Portuguese Synagogue.
(How's the Portuguese synagogue for Simchas Torah?)
Also of course the Rembrandt house.  Any others?


		Thanks in advance,
		Seth Rosenthal
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: markr@mot.com (Mark)
Subject: Re: sexism
Reply-To: markr@mcil.comm.mot.com
Organization: MCIL
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 13:34:59 GMT

In article <8CSRBCJ6@cc.swarthmore.edu> mwertz1@cc.swarthmore.edu (Melanie Wertz) writes:
>In article <1992Oct13.225947.27119@tc.cornell.edu>,
>bai@msiadmin.cit.cornell.edu (Dov Bai-MSI Visitor) writes:
>> 
>> In article <XVRRBDYX@cc.swarthmore.edu> mwertz1@cc.swarthmore.edu
>> (Melanie Wertz) writes:
>> 
>> [long disccusion as to why Judaism and Orthodoxy in particular are
>>  sexist deleted for sake of brevity]
>> 
>> >There is no "rational" explanation as to why I feel sexism as defined by
>> >Western culture is wrong.  There is no "rational" reason to believe the
>> >Torah is true, either!
>> 
>> 
>> Melanie,
>> 
>>    You are right in pointing out that there is no rational reason
>>    to believe that the Torah is true. However, in this discussion
>>    you are in no way better than the Orthodox people you care
>>    to criticize so much: They operate on one set of feelings and
>>    you on another. How do you expect this discussion to ever become
>>    constructive ? It is likely to degenerate into no more of an
>>    exchange of feelings between all sides ( including Conservatives
>>    & Reforms ).
>> 
>> Dov
>> 
>
>I am posting this discussion here because many of the women who read
>postings here have been brought up amidst the same Western values which I
>was brought up with.  I am sure I am not the only one who is disturbed by
>Jewish sexism.  I am sure there are women who want to believe in both an
>egalitiarian philosophy and in traditional Judaism, and I want to start a
>dialogue about how they are reconciling them.  If Judaism is going to
>survive within Western culture, if it is going to be an ideology which
>satisfies women and keeps them from assimilating, then it needs to address
>these contradictions and attempt to resolve them in some way.  
>
>If your essential point is that Judaism can have no place in the life of
>someone who has been touched by Western feminism, then you are right-- my
>posing is unconstructive.  But I think there are women out there who are
>struggling to find a balance, and I want to hear what they have to say.
>
>By the way, do you agree that Judaism is sexist?

If you define sexist as a system in which women and men have different (and
sometimes overlapping) sets of responsibilities, then yes.

Of course using that definition, life itself would then be sexist, since women
carry a conceived child for nine months and give birth to that child while
men don't.

Mark

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: On Polish Anti-semitism
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 16:55:08 GMT

pawel@tethys.ph.albany.edu writes:
#
#Go to the local bookstore and check.  There are plenty
#of books atributed to somebody but actually written by somebody
#else (I am afraid that large parts of Bible fell into this category
#and it was done delibarately - prophets usually didn't write down
#their own words).  

Oh, come on. Suppose I write a "diary" in which someone confesses
to be a murderer and a child molester, and publish it *under your
name* (i.e. as if this diary was written by you). I guess you
would say then that it is ok, because "There are plenty of
books atributed to somebody but actually written by somebody else...".

This is exactly what the "Protocols" do, but on a much wider scale.
They are a "classic" of antisemitic propaganda, and are
distributed in the US by extereme antisemitic, white supremacist,
and neo-Nazi groups.

#  Since you write that you don't suggest the book to be banned I assume
#that we basically agree that the very fact of the book being printed
#and shown on the display in the bookstore doesn't tell much about
#the intentions or personal believes of the bookstore owner or printing
#company.

I cannot answer for the original poster but you assume WRONG. There
is a big difference between allowing freedom of speech - even to
slimes of the worst kind - and between condoning what they say.

Anyone who sells or publishes the "Protocols" is an antisemitic
scumbag and that is that.

-Danny Keren.



Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: nadel@attatash.aero.org (Miriam Nadel)
Subject: Re: sexism
Organization: /usr/lib/news/organization
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 23:01:57 GMT

In article <1bi5uiINN5ka@agate.berkeley.edu> lmk2@garnet.berkeley.edu () writes:
>
>just a question:  How many men who defend the sex roles in 
>orthodox practice would switch places?  That is, stay home,
>have babies, look after the house, ask your wife when you want
>to go somewhere if she can drive you, and never have any time
>to study Torah (or very little)?  the obvious answer would be
>that women just naturally don't have to study Torah or that
>they don't want to.  Let's hear some non-obvious answers.


There's an underlying assumption here that Orthodox Jews believe a woman's 
place is in the home.  Which would certainly surprise a lot of Orthodox women,
who work outside the home in just about the same proportion as other women
(at least in the U.S. and Israel).  And who drive cars.  And who spend 
significantly more time studying Torah than the overwhelming majority of
non-Orthodox Jewish women.

Yes, there are sexist Orthodox Jewish men, some of whom attempt to find
religious grounds for their opinions.  But I think you have to distinguish
between what the religion says versus ways it's been used, which can be
a tricky thing to do.  I do think there are some problems with how Judaism
deals with sex roles, but on the whole, I don't consider them insurmountable.
Women in Judaism do have many ways of expressing religious feeling, ranging
from prayer (and there are Orthodox women's prayer groups in many major
cities) to lighting Shabbat candles (a mitzvah specific to women, in that
men do it only if they live in a household without women) to Torah
study to using the mikveh.  

Miriam Nadel
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: warren@itexjct.jct.ac.il (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: A Rosh HaShana sermon
Organization: ITEX, Jerusalem, Israel
Date: 14 Oct 92 16:55:46 GMT

I agree with it all, aside from the part about the plant reacting to a
researcher's thoughts - to the best of my knowledge plants are *not*
telepathic (a tree told me, but it wasn't connected to a polygraph, so
it could have been lying).  If anyone would care for more info, post
that part (and that part only, leave out that it was mentioned in a
sermon or the conclusions about how people ought to behave) to
sci.skeptic.
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire universe		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very strange carrot.
 |warren@      But the hiker
/ nysernet.org is concerned.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish
From: osinski@chtm.eece.unm.edu (Marek Osinski)
Subject: Re: On Polish Anti-semitism
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 92 00:09:03 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

In article <1992Oct2.205406.2988@Princeton.EDU> roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig) writes:

>Of course, unlike Poland, Israel was set up specifically to be
>a homeland for those who had been refused assimilation -- to the point
>of their attempted extermination.  It was to be one more nation-state,
>for a nation previously defined as such and specifically denied a homeland.
>Israel was defined from the start as a special case, created under special
>circumstances.  Whether the idea was fully a good one as it was carried
>out remains debatable, but criticizing the country for not fully assimilating
>its sworn enemies (many Palestinians call for the destruction of the State
>of Israel, and have in the past used rhetoric like "push the Jews into the
>sea").  So to ask aboutthe Palestinians is perhaps a bit irrelevant to
>the issue of Poles and Jews over the centuries.
>
>Roger
>

I am not at all sure that the "assimilation" of which Roger was talking,
complaining that the Jews of Poland were not allowed to assimilate,
would have been that desirable for the Jews themselves. Remember "The 
Fiddler on the Roof" and the instinctively perceived threat to the very 
survival of Jewish identity by assimilation into the "external" society?

I feel the tendency towards assimilation is a typical feature of
immigrational societies such as that of United States (the "English as
the only official language" campaign is a good example). In Europe, I
believe it would be much more valuable to create conditions for each
ethnic group to preserve and develop its own culture, rather than to
have the culture of majority imposed upon it. In this context, I tend
to look at questions about assimilation somewhat suspiciously. Is the
fact that the overwhelming majority of American Jews can no longer speak 
Yidish that commendable?

Having said all that it would not surprise me at all if "assimilation"
as used by Roger simply meant "non discrimination". If that is indeed
the case, Roger, than perhaps all you need is just to start using more
appropriate terms.

Marek Osinski
From: isaac@etrog.se.citri.edu.au (Isaac Balbin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Showering on Shabat/Yom Tov
Date: 16 Oct 92 03:26:47 GMT
Organization: Collaborative Information Technology Research Institute

wc4209@writer.yorku.ca writes:

>Anyone know the halacha regarding either full showers or just hair
>washing on Shabbat and/or Yom Tov?

You need to ask your local Orthodox Rabbi. 

On Shabbos, there is the issue of warm water, which is prohibited generally
on account of the fact that the removal of some warm water directly
causes new water to be heated.
So practically speaking forget Shabbos.

On Yom Tov warming up water is permitted provided that the use for which
the water is warmed is for food preparation and
is `Shave Lechol Nefesh' a requirement that is universal.

For example, one may warm up water to wash a dirty infant on Yom Tov, 
since infants get dirty and standard practice is to wash a dirty infant.
Some authorities permit the use of pure liquid soaps - a la shampoo -
others do not.
According to the Rabbi Auerbach you may dry the hair with a towel
and even squeeze the water from the hair but only directly *into* the towel 
(viz, towel on head, rubbing motion).
As to shampooing, well, most wouldn't allow it, however it may be permitted
if you don't sqeeze water *out* of your hair (allow the shower to drop water
on your hair) and also massage the shampoo in an inwards motion. 
That is, the intent is for shampoo to be pushed INTO the hair, and not for
consequent water/shampoo to be displaced. Rinsing is another matter
and can be accomplished with straight shower pressure, as above.

You would be advised not to rely on me, but ask your local Orthodox Rabbi.

As to showering on Yom Tov as opposed to shampooing hair only.
Most will not permit washing all the body on Yom Tov. However
you can wash your body in parts. Having a bath in which you only soaked 
the bottom section of your body would seem to be permitted.

I claim that washing ones whole body ought to be
permitted these days because it is Shave Lechol Nefesh.

Of course, you MUST ask your local Orthodox Rabbi.
If you cannot, send email to 
haber@mel.dit.csiro.au and he might decide for you.
From: pab1@quads.uchicago.edu (paul andrew braier)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: * jesus ? *
Date: 8 Oct 92 14:31:45 GMT
Reply-To: pab1@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations

> emc@doe.carleton.ca (Eli Chiprout) writes:
>
> But many Jews DID see enough in Jesus to proclaim him
> Messiah in the first century.
>

This is not quite true. In fact, very few Jews accepted him as moshiach.
This is why Paul of Tarsus and his cohorts changed the basic tenets and
started proseletyzing among the gentiles; they just couldn't get a
respectable number of adherents from the Jews.

Paul


-----------------------
Paul A. Braier
pab1@quads.uchicago.edu
From: rubinoff@linc.cis.upenn.edu (Robert Rubinoff)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Intermediate Days Of Sukkot: Kiddush, Candle Lighting??
Date: 14 Oct 92 18:29:31 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <1992Oct14.155220.26602@godzilla.quotron.com> jeff@godzilla.quotron.com (Jeff Marder) writes:
>What do you do on Chol Hamoed Sukkot??  Do you recite the Festival
>Kiddush every evening??  do you light candles  (if so, do you say
>"Shel Yom Tov", or something else??)

No candles or kiddush, but you are supposed to eat/live in the sukkah as much
as the weather permits.  Also, Hallel is recited at the morning prayers, as
is a musaf amidah and the "hoshannah" procession with the lulav and etrog
(except on Shabbat, when the lulav and etrog are not used).

   Robert
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879)
Subject: Re: New Mexico Crypto-Jews
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 18:26:00 GMT
Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA

From article <1992Oct16.153100.28775@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>,
by sethr@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (seth.r.rosenthal):
> I won't be around for a week, but I found another
> more extensive article on the Crypto-Jewish community
> of New Mexico.

If this is the article in Conservative Judaism, it's quite good, and I'd
recommend reading it.

				Doug Jones
				jones@cs.uiowa.edu