HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Clayton's Bibliography
Date: 3 Sep 92 05:56:12 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world

Clayton Cramer observes that he puts more effort into writing the books and
article for which he's paid, rather than the charitable donations he makes to
Usenet. I'd appreciate a bibliography; if we can go to the Serious Work,
perhaps we can come to a more reasoned judgement on the quality of his thought.
From: manes@bass.bu.edu (Michelle Manes)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: loose literary canons
Date: 1 Sep 92 13:32:55 GMT
Reply-To: manes@bass.bu.edu (Michelle Manes)
Followup-To: rec.arts.books
Organization: Boston University

In article <12057@optilink.UUCP> cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:
>
>Yet I was responding to someone who felt that the race of the
>Greeks was an important issue -- and who was wrong about it
>anyway.
>

Funny, I thought you were responding to me.
I was deliberately *excluding* the ancient Greeks from
my category of nonwhite writers because they had nothing
to do with the point I was trying to make (if in fact there
was one):  the lack of minority representation in the
"Great Books."  Had I considered them a nonwhite race, I
would have instead written: 
nonwhite writers: 8 (or some such number that would
include the ancient Greek writers represented)

On the other hand, I'm not
entirely convinced that they qualify as "white" by modern
standards (and have yet to be convinced of this despite
Clayton's liberal-bashing), so I excluded them from that
category as well.

>
>But I do care when reality is twisted, bent, and then altered
>to suit the needs of the moment -- especially by someone
>who purports to be an "academic."
>

Did I do that?  Sorry, I never meant to mislead any of you.
I'll solve this right now:
Despite other definitions of academic for which I may
qualify, there is one which reads, "conforing to the
traditions or rules of a school or an official academy:
CONVENTIONAL."  Well, I've never been accused of that before...

michelle

--
Michelle Manes		|	"What should I be when I grow up?"
manes@bass.bu.edu	|	"Honest."
			|	-Robert M. Pirsig
From: cwwhite@vax2.concordia.ca (Stephen White)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: New book by SNL's Father Guido Sarduce (sp?) ?
Date: 23 Aug 92 23:49:00 GMT
Organization: Concordia University
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

This is really a shot in the dark.

A month ago I caught the tail end of an interview on Letterman with the author/
actor/comedian who portrayed Satuday Night Live's Father Guido Sarduce (sp?)
and he mentioned that he had just gotten his first book published.

I know neither the title of this book, of the real name of the author.  Is
there anyone out here who has a clue as to how to get a hold of the publication
?

E-mail replies preffered, and thank you to anyone who can help or who wished
that they could.

Peace and long life,
								--Stephen White

| "Live simply that others may simply live" --Mohandas K. Gandhi              |
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,rec.arts.poems
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Subject: Beckett wrote in English!
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 01:08:07 GMT

About a week ago I smuggled a few lines into rec.arts.books.
They were as written by Juana de Asbaje -- in Antient Spanish --
and as quoted by Umberto Eco as the Preface to his Postscript
to *The Name of the Rose*. Samuel Beckett translated this sonnet
before he discovered he could only write in French. Although I 
suspect I have posted here once before, several netters have asked 
me for a translation. So, here it is.

	Divine rose, that in a pleasant garden,
	persuasive with sweet-smelling subtlety,
	in crimson mastery impartest beauty
	and snowy disciplines of loveliness.

	Intimation of the human frame,
	epitome of unavailing grace,
	in whose being nature did unite
	the joyful cradle and the fearsome tomb.

	How haughty in thy pomp, presumptuous
	and proud, thou dost distain the threat of death,
	and then, dismayed and humbled, showest forth

	thy perishable being's withered marks!
	Thus with learned death and ignorant life
	living thou dost deceive and dying teach.

	Juana de Esbaje y Rodrigues, Sor Ines de la Crus (1651-1695)

Does not a lush name like that make some of you folk want to rush out 
and join Holy Orders? I believe Sister Agnes was a Poor Clare -- sister
organization of the Franciscans.

						Fra Fido
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: wismith@amelia.nas.nasa.gov (William R. Smith)
Subject: Re: couple Ross Macdonald queries
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 92 16:33:13 GMT

jmhodap writes:

	Chandler is fun to read, while Jim Thompson has the grittiest edge.
	
	Current authors who, (IMSWHO) , rank up there for grittiness are
	James Lee Burke, Estelman (who tries too hard), Ellroy, and Mosley. 
	Speaking of Mosley, his first book, Devil in A Blue Dress is amazing,
	but his second is only fair.  



For something different in grit try James Cromely's detective books.
I've read two: "The Last Good Kiss" and one whose title escapes me.
The detective is an alcoholic living in a small town in Idaho or Montana.
The stories are down-and-dirty, well written with great characterization.
He's not lovable, but he sure seems real.

Cromely also wrote a book about Viet Nam called "One To Count Cadence".
Also good.  Several scenes are haunting.

I enjoyed Mosley's "Devil In A Blue Dress".  Have not heard of Thompson
or Burke.  I'll look for them.



William Sburgfort Smith
Intel, SSD
From: jjh00@outs.ccc.amdahl.com (Joel J. Hanes)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Progress (Was : Re: The Literary Canon)
Summary: Book about biology of human races
Keywords: we're all one and life goes on within you and without you
Date: 1 Sep 92 19:32:08 GMT
Reply-To: jjh00@OUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Joel J. Hanes)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA


   I'm not sure of the attributions, so I won't attribute this:
>>
>> I am saddened to see that the superstition of race is still
>> with us despite the progress(?) of the last 50 years.
>>
>> There is no such thing as race.


  heath@athena.cs.uga.edu (Terrance Heath) writes:
>
>	No such thing as race....  I must admit this is an intriguing
>idea ...   [ Are ] social categories,
>such as race, gender and sexual orientation, ... essential
>categories or social constructs. In other words, is there really
>essentially any such thing as race? It is universal?  Does is mean the
>same thing to  be black/mexican/asian in every time and every place? 
>	Arguing that race is a social construct is a powerful argument
>against racism, in that as race is no longer an essential category and
>thus no longer a static category.  ...
>	Social constructs can also be changed, whereas essential
>categories are "forever and ever, amen".  


Stephen Jay Gould's _The_Mismeasure_of_Man_ is an excellent recap
of the biological/anthropological evidence to date on the
(non)existence of human races, and presents some of the history of
the misuse of these data in the past.

---
Joel Hanes
From: Paul Schroeder
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Patrick O'Brien vs Horatio Hornblower...
Date: 2 Sep 92 13:49:04 GMT
Organization: BNR

In article <7419@skye.ed.ac.uk> jeff@aiai.ed.ac.uk (Jeff Dalton) writes:
>In article <1992Aug28.210852.21507@brtph560.bnr.ca> Paul Schroeder writes:
>>In article <25322@castle.ed.ac.uk> pws@castle.ed.ac.uk (P W Stephenson)
writes:
>>>Paul Schroeder writes:
>>>
>>>>First, IMHO a comparison between O'Brian and Forester is not appropriate. 
>>>
>>>I don't think they're quite in the same game, either.  One point which
>>>hasn't been made yet, which I think is instructive even if it's not true
>>>(:-) is that Forester was a modern novelist whereas O'Brian is a
>>>historical novelist: by which I really mean Forester wrote more from a
>>>present-day point of view while O'Brian writes as if he was a
>>>contemporary of his characters.  (Insert `in a sense' into the last
>>>sentence as many times as necessary.)  This perhaps explains why some
>>>people find his prose strange.
>
>>I agree that O'Brian is more of an historical novelist, and he uses a style
>>that borders on arcane.
>
>Now wait just a minute.  I have recently read all (so far as I know)
>of the Aubrey/Maturin novels, I have a fairly good memory of what
>they're like, and I think this is very misleading.
>
>I was bothered by the style in the first one I read (Post Captain),
>but it was a relatively minor detail that (consciously) bothered me.
>(A complete change of location could occur between one paragraph and
>the next without any transition.)  I wasn't bothered by anything
>in the style of the later ones I read.  I just don't see how anyone
>can say his style is "arcane".  (Maybe I'm just missing something?)
>
>I think there may be a style issue.  That's one reason why I think
>someone who tries O'Brien ought to start with two books.  But I
>didn't find anything about them hard to read.
>
>-- jd
>

Perhaps "bordering on arcane" wasn't the appropriate description for O'Brian's
style but I feel it is appropriate for some of the vocabulary he uses. 
Essentially, the point that I and the poster to whom I responded were trying to
make was that O'Brian's style (in both a literary sense as well as in the
approach to the genre) is considerably different than Forester's.  Forester
wrote in a relatively plain straight-forward style that moved the narrative
along in a conventional manner.  O'Brian uses speech patterns of the period and
narrative shifts that can be confusing;  at times the reader is not quite sure
what has taken place (and may or may not find out later in the book).  An
example of this was highlighted in a recent _Washington Post_ article on
O'Brian where it remains unclear as to the exact sexual relationship between
Aubrey and Diana Villiers.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,soc.culture.british
From: jyc@leo.Stanford.EDU (Jon Corelis)
Subject: Why I read the Economist
Organization: DSO, Stanford University
Date: 29 Aug 92 02:42:36 GMT

   An article in the Science and Technology section of this week's
Economist begins, "On the face of it, Shakespeare's view of men appears
to fit the male pied flycatcher rather well."

   As a person whose politics are somewhat leftish, I occasionally have
some qualms about my dedicated reading of this economically conservative
journal, but then they come up with things like this.  How do they do
it?  I mean, are there classes at public schools or Oxbridge that teach
you how to do this?  
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: moriarty@tc.fluke.COM (Jeff Meyer)
Subject: Re: Why I read the Economist
Reply-To: moriarty@tc.fluke.COM (Jeff Meyer)
Organization: The John Fluke Mfg. Co.  /a.k.a. The Gizmonics Institute/
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 01:46:16 GMT

Hmmm... glad to see so many other people reading THE ECONOMIST.  I
discovered it several years ago, after several failed attempts at finding an
American weekly news magazine that provided more information than opinion
(e.g., THE NEW REPUBLIC, US WORLD AND NEWS REPORT, etc.)  While THE
ECONOMIST isn't pure as snow in the objectivity department, they come pretty
close in human terms; more importantly, they *are* awfully good at showing
arguments on either side of an issue, and they really do seem to put more
emphasis on giving you the facts first and their views second.

Plus, the writing is nothing less than a delight to read.  (My hearty
congratulations to whoever captions their photos.  I've gotten more laughs
from that than any other source over the last few years, I think.)

Other good reasons to read it:

    The best international coverage I've seen in an English-language 
        magazine.  Bar-freaking-none.

    A good sense of humor.  (No, make that a *great* sense of humor.  Heavy
        on the wry.)

    The only news magazine with a science section that manages to explain
        the issues and details to an intelligent layman without descending
        to TIME or NEWSWEEK's "here's Mr. Neutrino" gurglings.

Yeah, it's as expensive as a magazine gets, but I've gotten it for four
years now, and I intend to keep on subscribing for another four years.
Thank God journalism still flourishes *somewhere*.

                           "Watching Mrs. Thatcher's performance from my
                            living room in America brought home (literally)
                            how impossible it is to imagine President George
                            Bush, or any leading American politician, uttering
                            such an obvious but unpleasant truth so
                            forthrightly.  Whatever happens to Mr. Bush, he
                            will never have the problems Mrs. Thatcher is now
                            going through, which stem from ideological hubris.
                            She knows what she believes and is willing to
                            pursue it past the point of either good sense or
                            political prudence.  Mr. Bush believes in very
                            little."
                                           -- Michael Kinsley, THE ECONOMIST

                                        Moriarty, aka Jeff Meyer
INTERNET:     moriarty@tc.fluke.COM
Manual UUCP:  {uunet, uw-beaver, sun, microsoft}!fluke!moriarty
CREDO:        You gotta be Cruel to be Kind...
                 **>> Keep circulating the tapes <<**
From: mtaranto@shearson.com (Mark Taranto)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Why I read the Economist
Date: 29 Aug 92 22:59:37 GMT


Francis Muir writes:

	Jon Corelis writes:

		. . . Oxbridge . . . .

	Your first lesson is never, ever use the word "Oxbridge" again.

Yes, please refer to them as the Harvard and Princeton of England.
(or should that be the Yale and Stanford).  Oh well, you get the 
idea.

Mark

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,rec.humor,alt.folklore.urban,rec.arts.sf.misc
From: Veeramany.Sthanumurthy@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Veeramany Sthanumurthy)
Subject: Re: Agnostics and Athiests
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 15:05:06 GMT

In article <1992Aug25.210101.23211@colorado.edu> paulchem@tigger.cs.Colorado.EDU (Icarus) writes:
>In article <1992Aug25.202645.13056@newshost.lanl.gov> gwr@hedonist-1.lanl.gov (Graham W. Redgrave) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug25.170508.12071@colorado.edu>, paulchem@tigger.cs.Colorado.EDU (Icarus) writes:
>>|> In article <1992Aug25.153404.2055@ccs.QueensU.CA> 3005904@jeff-lab.queensu.ca (Colleen Davis (Dexter)) writes:
>>|> >In article <787@dsbc.icl.co.uk>, sut@dsbc.icl.co.uk (Secure Unix Team KID01) writes:
>>|> >> 
>>|> >> In article <1992Aug21.081211.5150@pacifier.rain.com> keithf@pacifier.rain.com (Keith Furrow) writes:
>>|> >> >In article <g60nbv2z@csv.warwick.ac.uk> csuah@warwick.ac.uk (~WISP at CU~) writes:
>>|> >> >>In article <1992Aug18.140604.19294@wam.umd.edu> ara@wam.umd.edu (Ford Prefect) writes:
>>|> >> >>>In article <chris.714120892@rufus> chris@state.COM.AU (Chris Keane) writes:
>>|> >> >>>>ara@wam.umd.edu (Ford Prefect) writes:
>>|> >> >>>>
>>|> >> >>>>>IF THIS DOESN'T STOP, IM GOING TO START THE WORST CASCADE EVER.
>>|> >> >>>>WHILE EATING THIS SLOP, I SEWED THE FIRST BROCADE BEAVER.
>>|> >> >>>BILE FITTING RIG STOP, LIE SPEWED THIRST LIVER !!!!
>>|> >> >>IF YOU MUST CONTRIBUTE, AT LEAST DELIVER...
>>|> >> >WHO MAY I ATTRIBUTE TO THIS BEASTLY SLIVER?
>>|> >> TO SPAY A LUTE IN A GREASY RIVER
>>|> >DAMN CASCADERS THINK YOU'RE SO CLEVER
>>|> WHY DO ALIEN INVADERS MAKE YOU SHIVER ?
>>FOR THE SAME REASON AS A MADMAN WITH A CLEAVER!
>YOU SOUND LIKE QUAYLE WITH A GHASTLY FEVER !
QUAIL: INDEED MANY AN ARDENT BOOK LOVER!

Sthan.
--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: rsquires@cyclops.eece.unm.edu (Roger Squires)
Subject: Re: Sea Stories (was: Patrick O'Brian vs Horatio Hornblower...)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 92 05:11:27 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

In article <1992Aug26.225739.11153@nas.nasa.gov> wismith@amelia.nas.nasa.gov (William R. Smith) writes:
>John Nall writes:
>	
>	  BTW, this thread awoke in me a great longing to read some more
>	  good sea stories.  Anyone got any suggestions?
>
>"Wreck of the _Mary Deare_",  "The Cruel Sea" by Nicholas Monserrat,
>"Sink the _Bismark_" by C.S. Forester.
>

	_Two Years before the Mast_, Dana
		I usually read several books at at time, and the
		most memorable trilogy was this book,
		_The Birth of Tragedy_ by Nietzsche, and
		_Pilgrim's Progress by Bunyan.  The different
		aromas and flavours of the middle-aged American
		lawyer, the humble provincial Englishman, and
		the brash young German, was a delight to the palette!
	_Mutiny on the Bounty_, Nordhoff & Hall
	_Kon-Tiki_, Heyerdahl

These two are WW II stories, but I think they qualify as 'good sea stories:'

	_The Raft_, Robert Trumbel (or is that Trumbell?)
		three(?) airmen crash in the sea and survive
		for some astronomical length of time on the
		open ocean in a raft.  It's been ages since
		I read this one, so don't hold me responsible
		for it's quality, but I recall liking it.
	_Rendezvous at Midway_, Frank & Harrington
		Not knowing the details of Midway, I picked
		up this broken-down little paperback for a quarter,
		(mostly because my father was a pilot in this battle)
		and was utterly fascinated by it.  What was most
		surprising to me was the large part played by
		simple chance in these sea battles.  A great read.

>William Sburgfort Smith
>Intel, SSD

Roger Squires
rsquires@cyclops.eece.unm.edu
From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: The Literary Canon
Date: 28 Aug 92 19:12:26 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

I don't understand why this discussion took the unlikely turn that it did.
The precise skin hue of the ancient Greeks doesn't seem germane to the
earlier debate, which concerns continuity of culture, rather than
continuity of melanin content.

The "dead white males" argument, at least, is that there are portions of
our society which are 'disenfranchised' by a literary canon that doesn't
deal with their heritages and/or concerns.  The Greek classics are part
of that canon *whatever* the skin tones of the people who wrote them.

-----
Dani Zweig
dani@netcom.com

  The surface of the strange, forbidden planet was roughly textured and green,
  much like cottage cheese gets way after the date on the lid says it is all 
  right to buy it.--Scott Jones
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: yarnot@csusac.csus.edu (Jan Yarnot)
Subject: Bugs and spiders (Fabre: used to be something entirely else.)
Organization: Moi?
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 92 01:45:40 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.204156.17360@morrow.stanford.edu> francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir) writes:
>
>By the way, do you have anything by Fabre' in reasonable condition? I've
>always meant to read him again. At Stonyhurst Fabre' was on the short list
>of OK authors to read during the annual Retreat. 

Having just been on a "retreat" of sorts at Lake Tahoe, I'm impressed by the
synchronicity of this.  The book I finished at 0130 this morning, so that I
had (*shudder*) Nothing To Read, was _Natural Enemy_ by Jane Langton, in which
Our Hero is a budding entomologist and admirer of Fabre, and I was thinking 
that it would be interesting to dig into some of his works. 

>
>							Fido


-- 
---Jan Yarnot, net.grandma.-- | A lifetime of smirking behind your hand
                              | is a lot better than a few seconds of
                              | triumph.
CSUS depends on my every word.              Kinsella, _Box Socials_
From: manes@bu-pub.bu.edu (Michelle Manes)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: The Literary Canon
Date: 31 Aug 92 13:48:42 GMT
Organization: Boston University

In article <9208280318.AA16765@cfdev1.shearson.com>, mtaranto@shearson.com (Mark Taranto) writes:
|> 
|> 
|> Clayton used the word "White" in a fairly standard way.  If we replace
|> the word "White" with the word "Caucasion" his statement turns into

|> However, Dan also takes a cheap shot at Clayton for his typo -- he
|> used "statutes" instead of "statues."  As someone who makes a lot of
|> typos myself (two recent ones were "nave" instead of "navy," and
|> "tenant" instead of "tenet"), 

and "Caucasion" for "Caucasian"?
sorry...couldn't resist.  :>

michelle

-- 
Michelle Manes		|	"What should I be when I grow up?"
manes@bass.bu.edu	|	"Honest."
			|	-Robert M. Pirsig
From: lnh@soliton.physics.arizona.edu (sometimes a Wombat)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Peacock a-kimbo
Summary: How stands Thomas with you?
Keywords: Peacock's arms Maid Matilda
Date: 28 Aug 92 23:46:34 GMT
Reply-To: lnh@albert.physics.arizona.edu
Distribution: na
Organization: Society for the Appreciation of Janni Lee Simner


So, I finally sought and found Thomas Love Peacock, that r.a.b.ble
exalted author, friend of the Shellmeister, and epigrammist to the
stars.  No, wait, that was Landor.  Anyway, I found a two volume
edition of his novels, published in an attractive 32mo edition in olive
cloth-bound covers, of unknown date, but obviously produced early this 
century.  I attribute its good condition to the fact they are shelved 
with Dewey numbers up on the top floor far corner, instead of in the 
regular LibCong stacks.

I settled in my chair in my corner cubicle for the 15 minutes left
before class, and began to read MAID MARIAN.  The novel opens with
Robert FitzOoth, Earl of Locksley and Huntingdon late for his wedding
to Matilda Fitzwater.  He arrives, but before the cerimony can go far,
the king's men arrive -- King Henry, this is -- to arrest the good earl
for treason.  Swordplay and bow-work ensue, the earl escapes (without
his Mitlida), and the story is off and running.  The language spends time
to linger over not just the humorous, but the absurd.  Also, lots of
sly allusion and direct quotations from hither and yon.

I think I'm going to have fun.

But ... one question.  A friar, presumed to be Tuck, on page 4 stands
watching the fray with arms a-kimbo.  I've never found out what stature
this is.  It's not in this dictionary here (see? this one).  How is
this good friar standing?  Hands on hips?  A await further
instruction.

I morn the passing of 32mo hardcovers.  Especially the flexible cloth-
covered ones.  Did anyone see the one in HOWARD'S END?  I buy them now,
when I can.  The paper is good, they are portable, and the binding holds
up better than today's mass papaerbacks the same size.

	Larry "Antiquarian physicist" Hammer

ps.  Okay, I confess.  I was looking for Waverly novels when I found the
Peacock.
--

LNH@albert.physics.arizona.edu   \   "Hidden harmony is better than
The insane don't need disclaimers \   manifest."  -- Heraclitus, #47
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: turkel@unixg.ubc.ca (Bill Turkel)
Subject: _Storming the Reality Studio_
Originator: turkel@unixg.ubc.ca
Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 18:57:27 GMT


_Storming the Reality Studio_
Larry McCaffery, Ed.
Durham, NC: Duke U Press
1991
ISBN 0-8223-1168-2 (paper)
PS 374.S35 S76 1991

"Storm The Reality Studio.
 And retake the universe."
	-- WS Burroughs, _Nova Express_

Bill
turkel@unixg.ubc.ca
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,soc.culture.british