From: throopw@sheol.UUCP (Wayne Throop)
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Holden, Jumbo, and the Fenykoevi elephant
Summary: more about Ted's confusion between Jumbo and the Fenykoevi elephant
Date: 04 Oct 92 23:39:54 GMT

Frequent Ted-watchers may be interested in this.

Or those interested in elephants, I suppose.  It has three parts:
a review of elephant size statistics from a source new to me,
a tenative result that seems to show Ted's claims for square-cube
scaling of cross sections incorrect, and finally some detailed
explanations of the difference between Jumbo and the elephant
Ted so often confuses with Jumbo.


- elephant size statistics

Ted has been adamant that elephants just don't get any bigger 
than 16000 lbs. 

Well, while looking for something else, I happened across some
statistics that are interesting, and some facts about the two elephants
that Ted so often confuses.  In particular, the book _Animal_Facts_and_Feats_ 
by Gerald Wood contained much interesting information.  

First, a bit about the size of various elephants.  AF&F agrees with Ted
that the elephant on display in the Smithsonian (called "the Fenykoevi
elephant, because it was shot by a fellow by that name) is the largest
elephant for which accurate measurements of both height and girth are
available.  However, the mass estimate given for it is 24000 lbs, not
16000.  Further, they point out that this mass estimate is in line with
other large elephants, given how large this one is in comparison.  

I decided to check that, so I took the figure given for an average bull,
(3.20 m, 5.6 tonne) and checked it against the height listed for the
Fenykoevi elephant (3.81 m), as well as the other elephants listed.  I
got something more like 21000 lbs as being middle-of-the-road-average
for the Fenykoevi elephant as compared to others, rather than the 24000
they give, but still quite a bit more than what Ted gives.  At the 16000
lbs Ted claims, the Fenykoevi elephant would be pretty skinny. 

But even so, 21000 lbs implies a Holden Number of 27.6, which is
above the 1350/350^(2/3) Holden Limit.

Further, there are two elephants for which a height-to-the-shoulder larger
than that of the Fenykoevi elephant are known.  One is known from estimates
based on footprint size, and another by actual measurements.  They were
both listed at 3.96 m in height at the shoulder, which gives us
24000 lbs, and a Holden Number of 28.8.

( Note: this doesn't really dammage Ted's position at all, as he
  has said several times that "around 27" was all the accuracy he
  claimed for his Limit.  )


- square-cube cross section estimation inter-species

Ted is fond of saying that he has measured and found that
his predictions of cross section derived from the Holden Number hold
when comparing Kazmaier and the Fenykoevi elephant.  I was looking
at the photograph of that elephant in AF&F, and noted that
it would exceedingly difficult to get a circumference of the actual
major muscles driving the legs, and easy to make the mistake of
taking the measurement below the "elbow" of the front leg,
or below the "hock" of the rear leg.  That is, to take the measure
above the apparent "knees" yet below the next joint up.

I decided to try to check this out.  Sadly, I don't seem to be able to
find the original article where Ted reported the actual measurements,
but I have a partial calculation I did based on that article in which I
noted that I got a total cross section of all four legs of 735 in^2 or
so, taken from Ted's measurements.  (that would be total cross section
of extensors...  something like half of the total in the legs)

Working from the photograph, I get 500 in^2 or so of total cross
section, by making the *incorrect* measurement, and 2400 in^2
when making the measurement more correctly.

Therefore, I tentatively conclude that Ted's measurements which he
claims show that his square-cube scaling successfully relates human to
elephant (and biped to quadruped) cross sections are off, perhaps by as
much as 3-to-1 in cross section, or 1.7 or so times off in linear measure.

I say tenatively, because working from the photograph, I'm not really
getting much more than 1 digit of accuracy, if that, and further, I'm
not totally sure that the above 735 in^2 are from Ted's measurements. 
I'd appreciate Ted reposting his original measurements, or emailing them
to me. 

Also, anybody know Kazmaier's measurements?  I have something like
71 in^2 per thigh, cross section.  It may be an underestimate...

( Yes, I realize there are difficulties in estimating muscle
  cross sections from outside circumference measures.  Nevertheless... )


- details on the Fenykoevi elephant and Jumbo

The largest accurately measured African bush elephant on record, and the
largest recorded land animal of modern times, was an enormous bull shot
by J J Fenykoevi, the Hungarian big-game hunter, 76.8 km (48 miles) NNW
of Macusso, Angola, on 13 November 1955.  This giant measured 4.01 m (13
ft 2 in) in a projected line from the highest point of the shoulder to
the base of the forefoot while lying on its side, which means that its
standing height must have been c.  3.81 m (12 ft 6 in) at the shoulder. 
(Height measurements of wild elephants taken after death are about 5
percent greater than the living height because the great weight tends to
spread the body out laterally in all directions.) Other measurements
included an over-all length of 10.10m (33 ft 2 in (tip of extended trunk
to tip of extended tail) and a maximum bodily girth of 5.99 m (19 ft 8 in).
The weight was estimated at 10886 kg (10.7 tonne) (24000 lb) which seems
reasonable for an elephant of this size.

On 6 March 1959, the mounted specimen was put on display in the rotunda
of the US National Museum in Washington DC.

---
The largest African elephant ever held in captivity was probably the
famous 'Jumbo', who was acquired by London Zoo on 26 June 1865 from the
Menagerie du Jardin des Plantes, Paris, in exchange for an Indian
rhinoceros.  (The elephant had been caughe originally south of Lake Chad
in the French Sudan.) In 1879 he measured 3.28 m (10 ft 9 in) at the
shoulder, and in January 1882, when he was purchased by Phineas T
Barnum, the famous American showman, he allegedly stood 3.35 m (11 ft)
at the shoulder (weight 6.5 tonne/ton) and could reach (forefeet off the
ground) an object 7.92 m (26 ft) above him with his trunk.  (Bartlett,
1898). 

The true standing height of Jumbo will never be known for certain
because Barnum refused to allow anyone to measure his prize exhibit.  He
claims the elephant measured 3.55 m (11 ft 7 in) in March 1883 and 3.65
m (12 ft) shortly before his death on 15 September 1885 (hit by a train
at St Thomas, Ontario, Canada), but both these figures were exagerated
for commercial reasons. 

-
(The skeleton of Jumbo in the American Museum of Natural History, New
York - presented by Barnum in 1889 - has a mounted shoulder height of
3.17 m (10 ft 5.25 in), which is equivalent tio a measurement of 3.40 m
(11 ft 1.75 in) in the flesh.)

After touring North America for two years, the model of Jumbo was
dismantled and the 697 kg (1538 lb) hide reconstructed, stuffed and sent
to the Barnum Museum at Tufts University Massachusets, where it was
destroyed by fire in April 1975. 
--
Wayne Throop  ...!mcnc!dg-rtp!sheol!throopw