HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: scharle@lukasiewicz.cc.nd.edu (Scharle)
Subject: Re:      Women cardinals?
Reply-To: scharle@lukasiewicz.cc.nd.edu (Scharle)
Organization: Univ. of Notre Dame
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 17:35:17 GMT

In article <1992Oct8.025541.6429@cs.tulane.edu>, lang@cs.tulane.edu (Raymond Lang) writes:
   ...
|> In article <199210070211.AA14632@caritas.cotdazr.org> "(Gordon C. Zaft)" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG> writes:
   [in response to my suggestion that there could be women cardinals]
   ...
|> >       "Those promoted as cardinals are men freely selected by the
|> >Roman Pontiff, who are at least in the order of the presbyterate and
|> >are especially outstanding for their doctrine, morals, piety, and
|> >prudence in action; those, however, who are not yet bishops must
|> >receive episcopal consecration."
|> >                       Canon 351.1
|> >
|> >       I don't see how it's possible to have a woman cardinal.
|> 
|> Well, of course, under the current code of canon law, it's not.  But
|> remember that it's only been since the 1917 revision that cardinals
|> were even required to be _bishops_, and there is historical precedent
|> for lay cardinals.
|> 
|> I think it's high time that the Church recognize that one need not be
|> a bishop (or even a man) to be "outstanding for [...] doctrine, morals,
|> piety, and prudence in action."
   ...
   I think that it was reasonable, if one grants a male-dominated 
society, that officers of the Church be _ordained_ males.  However, 
things do change.  The office of cardinal is one designed by people, 
and the rules for that office are written by people.  Therefore, I do 
not see how they cannot be changed by people.  As far as I can tell, 
the cardinalate is simply the office of Papal elector, and beyond
that, it is an honorary position.  Why women cannot be so honored is 
beyond me, it would be a simple step for the Church to do, and would 
do much to show that the Church is not anti-woman in refusing to 
ordain women.  ("See, we give high offices to women when it is 
possible for us to do that.")
    Or are there people who would be shocked by this?
    I have heard that some women (abbesses) have been delegates to
Ecumenical Councils.  Is that true?

|> 
|> Ray Lang
|> lang@cs.tulane.edu

-- 
Tom Scharle                |cm65n6@irishmvs(Bitnet)
Room G003 Computing Center |scharle@lukasiewicz.cc.nd.edu(Internet)
University of Notre Dame  Notre Dame, IN 46556-0539 USA
From: jocallag@bach.helios.nd.edu (john ocallaghan)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re:      Re: women priests (yet again)
Date: 15 Oct 92 16:26:00 GMT
Organization: OUC, University of Notre Dame

In article <9210150341.AA13423@intercon.com> Amanda Walker <amanda@INTERCON.COM> writes:
>
>"The truth of our faith becomes a matter of ridicule among the infidels if
> any Catholic, not gifted with the necessary scientific learning, presents
> as dogma what scientific scrutiny shows to be false."
>                -- Saint Thomas Aquinas
>
>Food for thought?
>
>
>Peace,
>
>Amanda Walker

So there are three necessary conditions to the sufficient condition presented
in this implication; correction four necessary conditions:
    1)the person must be a Catholic
    2) the person, who fits 1) must not be gifted with the necessary scientific
       learning (noting that 'science' for Aquinas did not mean what we mean
       by science; he meant demonstrative conclusions from necessary first
       principles in any area of inquiry)
    3) the person who meets 1) and 2) must be presenting something as dogma
    4) what the person who meets 1), 2), and 3) is presenting must have been
       shown by scientific scrutiny to be false, which in Aquinas sense of
       scientific scrutiny means that it must contradict the conclusion of
       a demonstration that proceeds by the laws of logic from necessarily
       true first principles.
There is also a necessary condition in the consequent;
    1) the person who meets all four above, must be presenting what he or 
       she says to an infidel.
If any of theses conditions are not met, then according to St. Thomas in
this passage he or she is not causing the faith to be a matter of ridicule for
these reasons, though they may be causing the faith to be a matter of
ridicule for other sufficient reasons.
Just a little gustatation on this food for thought.
Peace,
John
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From: oneil@cwis.unomaha.edu (Sharon O'Neil)
Subject: Protestants and Catholics (Was: Sinead O'Connor)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 06:10:51 GMT

pol30546@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Peder Larsen) writes:

>oneil@cwis.unomaha.edu (Sharon O'Neil) writes:

>>Although, I can really understand how some people are just plain sick and
>>tired of the wars that happen in the name of religion -- whether that 
>>religion be Catholicism, Protestantism or Islam.

> I don't know about you but I don't consider Catholicism and Protestantism
> to be different religions.  They have many differences of course in their
> respective approaches but the religion for both is Christianity.

I don't consider Catholicism and Protestantism to be different religions: 
both are forms of Christian expression.  However, let's admit that 
Catholics and Protestants have often had a very difficult time sharing 
space.  (Take North Ireland for an example.  Or Yugoslavia.)

>>>No organization fights harder for human rights, peace, and social change
>>>than the Catholic Church.  In my opinion, no organization carries the
>>>light of Christ to the world more effectively than the Catholic Church.

>>Well, hmmm, I think there are a lot of great Protestant churches who 
>>do a LOT of work for human rights, peace and social change.  Foremost in
>>my mind: the United Church of Christ, the United Methodist Church, and
>>the Disciples of Christ.

> I have always had the impresion that all Christian churches have this as 
> one of their duties.  I know of many churches that are active in these
> respects both on the local level and on national and international levels.

I just don't think it is fair to say that the Catholic Church is better
than these other mainstream Protestant churches in carrying out missions of
human rights, peace and social change.  I have always been very impressed
with the UCC, UMC, and Disciples of Christ.

Of course, given that I used my college years to explore different churches
-- other than the Catholic church I grew up in -- I feel I've really
learned a lot.  I have a great deal of respect for the Methodists in 
particular.  One reason is that my grandfather was a Methodist minister.
Another reason is that I attended a Methodist church in Lincoln because I
really had problems with the local Catholic Church (and even received a
dispensation from my home parish priest to excuse me from Mass at my
college campus).  The Methodist minister there really respected the fact 
that I was Catholic.  He never tried to "steal me from the Catholic flock."
I attended Bible study at his church and he always was able to comment 
not only on the mainstream Protestant interpretations of faith, but also
on the Catholic.
From: pck@acsu.buffalo.edu (Philip C. Kilinskas)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Homosexuality
Date: 13 Oct 92 13:27:10 GMT
Organization: UB

ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM (Eric James Ewanco) writes:


>The church's position is that it is not a natural difference, but a
>disorder.  Psychopaths can also claim to be "born" that way, but it
>gives them no right to do what they do.

Hold on, here.  Are you *seriously* equating consentual homosexual sex with
murder?  I wonder if your extreme prejudice and close-mindedness are genetic
or learned behavior.

Drawing parallels to alcoholism and mass-murderers is ludicrous, as these are
acts which cause harm, while the only harm caused by the homosexual lifestyle
is when one of them gets physically abused by close-minded bigots because of
who he/she is.

Phil,
(Not homosexual, but still deeply offended by some of the talk here)
____________________________________________________________________________
pck@acsu.buffalo.edu /  "Our days are like grass..." - Psalms 103:51
Your eyes are weary from staring at the CRT.  You feel sleepy.  Notice how
restful it is to watch the cursor blink.  Close your eyes.  The opinions
stated above are yours.  You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.
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Date:         Wed, 14 Oct 1992 13:14:27 CDT
Comments:     Resent-From: CCCAMPER@MIZZOU1
From:         CCCAMPER@MIZZOU1.BITNET
Subject:      re: The Story of Fatima, Part 2; OOPS!!

I haven't read your Fatima posts carefully yet, but I caught this
historical error:

>> This difficulty helped to impede the
>> spread of her message to all mankind. A great war was to begin in the
>> reign of Pius XI. While some maintain that WWII didn't begin until
>> Pius XII, the assasination of the archduke in Yugoslavia that helped
>> trigger WWII did take place during the while Pius XI was pope.

WWII was not triggered by an assassination of an archduke in
Yugoslavia; that was WWI (the archduke was Franz Ferdinand, murdered
by Serbian terrorists in Sarajevo in July [late June?] 1914).
Most historians point to Hitler's invasion of Poland (1 September
1939) as the formal beginning of WWII.  I believe that Pius XI died
the preceding summer or late spring.

However, the world was in a state of aggressive war almost
continuously from 1931 (the Japanese invasion of Manchuria) until the
surrender of Japan in September, 1945.  This includes: the Italian
invasion of Ethiopia (1935-6), the Spanish Civil War (1935-7,
(etc)

So, it's fairly debatable when WWII actually began.  Certainly, a
plausible historical case can be made that WWII (though not the West's
direct military involvement in it) began during the reign of Pius XI.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
A list member sent this post and I was shocked to have made such
an error. Too many notes and not enough time. (should leave the
history and apologetics to the rest!) ;-)

Elizabeth
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Date:         Thu, 15 Oct 1992 19:53:45 -0400
From:         "Nancy M. Piatkowski" <PIATKONM@SNYBUFVA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: translation

The change from This is the Word of the Lord to The Word of the Lord has been
made to more accurately translate the Latin. The new translation makes it
clearer that the proclaimer is refering to what was just proclaimed not to the
entire book itself. It also draws the faithful into a closer role as carriers
of the word of the Lord to the world as we are addressed with the words- The
Body of Christ at Eucharist- we are to become Christ to the world. There are
greater things to worry about than a minor change in words at the end of the
readings. If that is what your faith is based on you need to look at yourself
and what the liturgy means to you. These changes are not made on the whim of a
few people- or by the publishers of the various missalettes. AND they are
approved by Rome.
Nancy-
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Date:         Tue, 13 Oct 1992 12:58:57 -0500
From:         p_burke@RIKER.CCA.CR.ROCKWELL.COM
Subject:      Re: Homosexuality

I don't see what the big deal is.  Homosexuality is *WRONG*.  Just
like adultry is *WRONG*.  Doesn't mean that I hate anybody, I just
hate the sin.

If you're into homosexuality, pray to Jesus for forgiveness and
healing.  Miracles do still happen.

Pat Burke
"Normal disclaimer for Rockwell - my thoughts not theirs"
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Date:         Fri, 16 Oct 1992 08:54:24 -0500
From:         Tim Rolfe <rolfe@DSUVAX.DSU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: English translation

"Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support, x8425" <tillman@SWDEV.SI.COM>
 writes:

>Eric James Ewanco (ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM) writes:

>>What is so dang wrong with putting grammatically correct sentences in
>>the liturgy?  Do these people just want to change things for the sake of
>>changing them?

>Eric, I concur completely.  No change in liturgical text should ever be
>undertaken just for the sake of change.  I think the only reason to change such
>texts is to make it reflect as accurately as possible the sense of the
 original.

I realize that this will seem gross heresy to some, but might I suggest
something:  in keeping with the existence of multiple Rites in the Catholic
and universal Church (Latin Rite, various eastern Rites, etc.), what's
wrong with speaking of an English Rite --- i.e., that the liturgy be judged
not as translations of the original but as liturgical prayers in their own
right, originating as paraphrases of the Latin.  (Again, the Latin liturgy
is NOT immutable scripture.)  Let the discussion focus on how the ICEL
paraphrases work as liturgical prayer --- I'm not suggesting that the
current prayers would not benefit from some changes, I'm just suggesting
how we should go about basing those changes.
--
                                              --- Tim Rolfe
                                           rolfe@dsuvax.dsu.edu
                                            ROLFE@SDNET.BITNET
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Date:         Wed, 7 Oct 1992 13:35:22 EDT
From:         "Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support,
              x8425" <tillman@SWDEV.SI.COM>
Subject:      Re: Turning the Other Cheek

Dave Weinstein (dweinste@nyx.cs.du.edu) writes:

>Assuming, for the sake of argument, that the Gulf War were to be determined
>as "Just", then how is it less moral to kill one or a handful of men in the
>government responsible then to conduct a war which leaves tens of thousands
>of military personnel dead, and kills or injures hundreds of thousands of
>innocent civilians?

I guess that also would be a point of contention - was the Gulf war "just"?  I,
for one, will never *ever* consider any war just.  Not to say you (not just you,
Dave, but anyone) can't, though.

-----------------------------+--------------------------------
 Brian Tillman               | Internet: tillman@swdev.si.com
 Smiths Industries, Inc.     |           tillman_brian@si.com
 4141 Eastern Ave., MS129    | Hey, I said this stuff myself.
 Grand Rapids, MI 49518-8727 | My company has no part in it.
-----------------------------+--------------------------------
From: bdboyle@erenj.com (Bryan D. Boyle)
Subject: Re: women priests (yet again)
Organization: ER&E Co., NJ
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 19:31:26 GMT

In article <009621EF.18F35920.22054@swdev.si.com> "Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support, x8425" <tillman@SWDEV.SI.COM> writes:
>
>Because, at the judgement, God will not ask me if I followed some institution's
>instructions, He'll ask me what I did for the benefit of His other children.  I
>for one will never abdicate my own responsibility for doing what I feel God asks
>of me and for deciding on my own what that is because I'm going to be the one
>held accountable for it.

Then how do you account for Christ's charge to Peter and his disciples 
that "whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever
you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven..."?  Fancy poetic license?
Or are you denying the authority of the magisterium to posit truths that
we may feel uncomfortable about because they do not fit in with what we
feel should be?  Or perhaps we are so advanced in our understanding that
there is no need for a hierarchical structure like the Catholic Church?

Just interested in knowing what the bounds are for the sake of
discussion.     

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Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 09:32:00 EDT
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From:         Liz Moreau <EMOREAU@UMASSD.EDU>
Subject:      Firstborn Male

I was reading in Luke last night about the Jewish custom of the first
born male of each family being consecrated to the Lord.

I know also that the firstborn male in each Catholic family is also
consecrated(?) to the Lord.  I have no problem with this practice but
was wondering what was the rationale behind it.

					Liz Moreau
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Date:         Thu, 15 Oct 1992 16:16:43 EDT
From:         "Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support,
              x8425" <tillman@SWDEV.SI.COM>
Subject:      RE: English translation

Stephen Linam (sdl@austin.ibm.com) writes:

>I've heard that in this new translation the creed will be changed from
>"for us men and for our salvation" to "for us and for our slavation"
                                                           +----+---+
                                                                |
----------------------------------------------------------------+
Yea, the RC church has been trying to keep people slaves for years!

THIS IS JUST A JOKE!  The typo just caught my eye and seemed funny.

-----------------------------+--------------------------------
 Brian Tillman               | Internet: tillman@swdev.si.com
 Smiths Industries, Inc.     |           tillman_brian@si.com
 4141 Eastern Ave., MS129    | Hey, I said this stuff myself.
 Grand Rapids, MI 49518-8727 | My company has no part in it.
-----------------------------+--------------------------------
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From: v5875bza@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Michael M Gorman Jr)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: spiritual reasons for fasting
Date: 7 Oct 92 13:25:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

Can someone please give a brief account of the spiritual reasons
for fasting?

-MG
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: jbuffer@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (James J Buffer)
Subject: Re: women priests (yet again)
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 19:17:48 GMT

In article <00961ADA.68307FC0.14073@swdev.si.com> "Brian Tillman, Smiths Indust
ries, VAX Support, x8425" <tillman@SWDEV.SI.COM> writes:
>Steve Creps (creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu) writes:
>
>>Roma locuta, causa finita.
>
>Rome has said it, so that's the end of it?  God did plant a brain in each of o
ur
>heads.  He intended us to think for ourselves.
>
Yes, He did. But why? So that we could find the truth. And sometimes you find 
the truth by going to a rightfully established authority on the topic. What 
authority is more reliable than Apostolic authority?
>-----------------------------+--------------------------------
> Brian Tillman               | Internet: tillman@swdev.si.com
> Smiths Industries, Inc.     |           tillman_brian@si.com
> 4141 Eastern Ave., MS129    | Hey, I said this stuff myself.
> Grand Rapids, MI 49518-8727 | My company has no part in it.
>-----------------------------+--------------------------------
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: edjans01@orion.spd.louisville.edu (David Jansing)
Subject: Re: All about the Book of Revelation
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 15:38:12 GMT
Organization: University of Louisville

In <Bvts60.Fy7@andy.bgsu.edu> kutz@andy.bgsu.edu (Ken Kutz) writes:

>How would these contexts change the validity of the claim of divine
>inspiration?  Can a piece use apocalyptic language and metaphors and
>still be divinely inspired?

Absolutely.  Why must divinely inspired Scripture must be restricted to a
literal interpretation?  Let me give you an example:

[From Fr. Springman's Notes:]

The symbols are NOT to be visualized; rather combine verbally the MEANINGS
of the symbols.  Example:  John presents a Lamb with 7 eyes and 7 horns who
is slain yet standing --

Lamb = Christ
7    = total
eye  = knowledge
horn = power
slain = crucifixion
standing = resurrection

Therefore, Jesus who was crucified and is risen now has total knowledge and
total power.

Let me qualify that I did not interpret this Scripture, a Scripture scholar
did, which means that he is educated to do so.

Finally, the Prologue (Rev. 1:1-3) indicates that the Book is a letter of
the Prophet John that is to be read aloud to the Church during the Liturgy
by a Lector.  [Again, from Fr. Springman's notes]

In the end, what is important is the message of Jesus, not the message that
we should scare the daylights out of one another with talk of the end of the
world.
-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dave Jansing |  University of Louisville  | Department of Electrical Engineering
                Internet:  edjans01@orion.spd.louisville.edu
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let all guests be treated as Christ himself, and just so, for many an angel as
been entertained unaware . . . But if a guest overstay his welcome, let two of
the stout monks take him to the gate and explain the matter to him.
-- Adapted from the _Rule of St. Benedict_
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCLAIMER:	The opinions expressed here are strictly my own and do not
		necessarily reflect those of the Department of Electrical
		Engineering or any other department within the University
		of Louisville.
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Organization: Argus Consulting, Tucson, AZ
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Date:         Sat, 10 Oct 1992 12:07:46 -0700
From:         "(Gordon C. Zaft)" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>
Subject:      Catholic vs. non-Catholic

On Oct 9,  6:03pm, "(Edward J. Branley)" wrote:
} Subject: Catholic vs. non-Catholic schools
} Anyway, I'd like to hear from folks who have their kids in public/private
} schools and send them to Sunday school (or Saturdays as it is in some
} parishes).  Are you satisfied with this?  If you could, would you prefer
 having
} your child in a parochial school?
}-- End of excerpt from "(Edward J. Branley)"

	While not a parent, I thought I'd add my 2 cents...

	I think one of the best things about Catholic schools is that they
are the 'Great Equalizer'.  If the kids are required to wear uniforms
(as at most schools) it knocks down the importance of being the
best-dressed at school (my eldest niece would be horrified at the
prospect!).  The fact that you have kids of all backgrounds there is
a good introduction to the Catholicity (universality) of the Church.

	I also think, in general, that parish schools deserve all our
support, including constructive criticism where necessary.

GZ

--
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
                 Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.
One man tells a falsehood, a hundred repeat it as true.
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Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 16:05:00 HST
From:         "(Len Howard)" <tas@PEGASUS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Authority on the Church...
              Church..." (Oct  6,  6:28pm)

Oh, Eric, I did not know you were speaking for Cardinal Mahoney.  I
know very well what you think.  I was wondering if there could be
other ideas within the hierarchy that might be brought up for
discussion.  The question was proposed as one that Kim might give to
His Eminence.

Shalom,                             Len Howard
                                    tas@pegasus.com
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