HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ghm@sserve.cc.adfa.oz.au (Geoff Miller)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: blanks
Date: 15 Sep 92 13:59:35 GMT
Organization: Australian Defence Force Academy, Canberra, Australia

rigg@ssdt-tempe.sps.mot.com (Dana Rigg) writes:

#In article <1992Sep8.162037.10512@edsr.eds.com> edsr!kjs@uunet.UU.NET (Kevin Sedota) writes:
#-> #Can anyone point me to a source on how to load blanks. The only
#-> #manual I've got is the Speer and it doesn't mention it. I know 
#-> #you need some kind of wadding but I'm not sure what it is.
#-> 
#-> This worries me somewhat.  Genuine blank pistols are designed ONLY for
#-> blanks.  If however you're thinking of firing "blank" loads in a real
#-> gun be advised that they are NOT by any means "safe", and should be
#-> treated with the same respect as genuine manstopper loads.  (I couldn't
#-> tell which kind of "blank" you meant, and figured better safe than sorry.)

#Is it possible to even have blanks that work the action of an auto?  It
#does not seem possible since, with a recoil operated mechanism, you would
#need the mass of the bullet to create enough backward force.  Can someone
#enlighten me?

I'll try.  The answer is actually "Yes and No"  -  yes, you can have
blanks that will work the action of a semi-auto (or, as in the movies,
full-auto) gun, but the gun has to be modified for them to work.  Basically
this involves partly blocking the barrel to build up enough gas pressure
to work the action.  Normally, of course, it's the bullet in the barrel 
that achieves this.

When the defence forces go out to play^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hon field exercises
they use a little device which fits over the muzzle of the rifle to achieve 
this effect.  In the fancier versions I believe these are now linked to
a laser aligned with the barrel, while all the soldiers wear detectors
to tell them, and the umpires, when they have been hit.

Geoff Miller  (g-miller@adfa.oz.au)
From: ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Rifled Shotgun Chokes
Date: 8 Sep 92 13:58:09 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA

In article <1992Sep5.172650.18287@ke4zv.uucp> ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman) writes:
#In article <9208300132.AA27282@doug.cae.wisc.edu> sean@cae.wisc.edu (Sean Rutledge) writes:
##I was wondering what a rifled shotgun choke would do to the pattern
##of shot.  Wouldn't the rifling add a spin to the shot making a 
##larger pattern?  If so, would this be something good to use for a
##home defense shotgun?
#
#It makes for a horribly *uneven* pattern. You'd never know from shot
#to shot just where the bulk of the shot would go. Try a .410/.45LC
#TC barrel without the "straightener" tube to see what I mean.

What it OUGHT to do is put stabilizing spin on the most central
pellets in the wad and put centrifugal spin on the most distal
pellets in the wad (those closest to the edge of the wad) and
cause a fairly even spreading out of the shot.  (i.e. NOT a do-nut
pattern, due to differential effects of spin with distance from the 
centerline of the shot column).

Unfortunately, reality isn't like that ...  If you have the shot
tightly bound together with a narrow shot column (like in a .410
bore TC) it seems to get 'lumpy'.  That is, it seems that 'chunks'
of shot hang together a bit and go off center together...

I'd EXPECT that a 12 ga. rifled shotgun (God, that's hard to 
type with a straight face ;-)  would behave more closely in line
with theory, but have no evidence to cite.  Perhaps someone with
such a gun can do a pattern test on it and post the results?

My GUESS is that the wad is going to do something odd under rotating
conditions to interfer with the shot... but what?

At any rate, back to the question of 'home defense' value...  At the
ranges common in the home, I'd expect that ANY spreading of the shot,
even if the pattern is un-even in the extream, would be welcome.
Heck, so you have an un-even pattern, when the pattern has been opened
up from 1 inch to 4 inches does it really matter if it is even?
If it was opened to 1 foot?  2 feet?  I doubt that even rifling
could get the pattern opened to 2 feet in a 10 foot distance ...
That would require an outward velocity of about 1/5 the forward
velocity ... (VERY roughly) ... or about 200 fps ... What 
acceleration outward does the (what is it, one turn in 34 inches?)
spin induced by rifling provide?  What velocity outward would you have?

I'd GUESS (yes, again with the guessing ;-) that you will get about
a one half inch per foot spread or about a 5 inch pattern at 10 feet.
I don't think that helps much over a 1 inch pattern, and I don't
think that an un-even 5 inch pattern matters...  i.e. I think 
the question is moot...  Put a laser sight on the gun and shoot
any kind of barrel on it with any kind of shot, just make sure
you hit the target in the center ...




-- 

E. Michael Smith  ems@apple.COM

'Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it.  Boldness has
 genius, power and magic in it.'  -  Goethe

I am not responsible nor is anyone else.  Everything is disclaimed.
From: pauly@netcom.com (Paul Yoshimune)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Bullets...
Date: 5 Sep 92 14:57:26 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

Well, up till now, I've been using Bear Creek bullets, which have a dry lube
on them.  I've heard some very conflicting reports on these.  Some people claim
they're the greatest bullets ever made, and that the dry lube works wonders.
Others claim that the lube will actually harm your barrel, due to very fine
abrasives.  Finally, I've heard that Bear Creek bullets vary INCREDIBLY in
weight between rounds.  This last is what concerns me most; lacking a good
measure, I can't verify this myself.

So, at the store today, I got some Western Nevada bullets, which are supposed
to be very well made, with excellent consistency.  Opinions?

I also picked up a box of Black Talon .45 ACP - they only had one.  I'm going
to get another (want to make sure the stuff feeds 100% before relying on it
for defense).  The guy also had a sample round that Winchester sent him, which
was mushroomed quite impressively - almost too impressively.  It was almost
as if the round had been artificially expanded to the 'perfect' shape.  Ah,
well... 

Finally, I actually got a chance to handle a Para-Ordinance .45.  What can I
say...I >NEED< one.  The squared grip that many people complain about felt
absolutely perfect for me, even though I have small hands.  It was like the
gun was designed for me specifically.  So, does anyone know of any problems
with this frame (like the McCormick cracking problem), or how much I should
expect to pay for one?  Thanks a bunch...


-- 
DVC,
  Paul

Paul Yoshimune
pauly@netcom.com
From: jlw@mtuxo.att.com (Joseph L Wood, Iii)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: What are some famous actor's guns
Date: 7 Sep 92 00:39:09 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <9209042315.AA01955@cs.utexas.edu> MARTYZ@IDUI1.CSRV.UIDAHO.EDU (Marty Zimmerman) writes:
# #  But Matt Helm preferred rifles, and in many of the books did some
# #sniper work, usually with a high power bolt action rifle, and usually
# #scoped.  I'm sure that at least once it was a .300 Win. Mag., and
# #the sighting it in is often mentioned.
# 
# You're right.  I also remember a .300 H & H, but I can't remember
# the make.
#

In the book "The Ambushers" (C) 1963 Matt Helm took out a local
latin strongman named El Fuente with:

"It was a heavy match barrel on the long Mauser action, shooting a
handloaded version of the .300 Holland and Holland Magnum cartridge that
I'd cooked up myself.  I slipped off the rubber bands and removed the
corregated cardboard that gave additional protection to the scope, a
twenty-power Herrlitz.

The stock was a plain, straight-grained hunk of walnut without much
sex appeal, but it was fitted to the barrel and action with artistry.
A regular G.I. leather sling completed the outfit." 

As to the actual shooting, the range information was:

"Actually, of course, I'd never believed their story of three hundred
and fifty meters.  I'd sighted in the rifle at four hundred and fifty yards,
and run my compensation table from three to six hundred, just in case."


I have enjoyed reading Donald Hamilton for many years.  I have most
of the Matt Helm stuff including on novel where the protagonist is
a custom gunsmith with a peculiar ailment and another book of non-
fiction called "Donald Hamilton on Guns and Hunting."

I haven't seen anything by him in the new book racks in the
bookstores for several years.  Does anyone out there know if he's
still alive and writing?

Joe Wood
jlw@mtuxo.att.com
From: gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Hand-loads for defense
Date: 12 Sep 92 13:53:35 GMT
Organization: U.S. Army Ballistic Research Lab, APG MD.


In article <1992Sep5.152251.17580@ke4zv.uucp> ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman) writes:
#... If it's argued that the weapon should have *already*
#been loaded with a "humane" load, then the question becomes one
#of why the person had been *prepared* to shoot another person rather
#than his normal target.

The problem with this line of reasoning is that it encourages the
notion that there is something wrong with being prepared to defend
oneself.  That right (or even obligation) is not something to
apologize for, but rather to uphold in the face of attacks on it.
From: mbehrens@barqs.amd.com (Mikael Behrens)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Info on Baby Eagle??
Date: 9 Sep 92 13:08:10 GMT
Organization: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.; Austin, Texas

In article <83kT02pA20fw01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> mws20@ccc.amdahl.com (Mark  
Sechrest) writes:
| 
| 
| I was in a sporting goods store last night and saw a new gun- the Baby
| Eagle. Does anyone have any info on this gun? Have you seen any reviews
| of it? Any info appreciated!
| 

I believe this is the CZ-75 clone that IMI sells.  They advertise it as kind  
of a "baby" Desert Eagle.  I think it comes as a kit that you can configure to  
fire both 9mm and .41 Action Express.  They probably also have a version for  
40 Smith & Wesson now.

Mikael
From: scot@hpfcla.fc.hp.com (Scot Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Ring as hand gun safety?
Date: 14 Sep 92 19:15:52 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Fort Collins Site

This was discussed here several months ago.  If I recall, the gun is a mod
by a gunsmith reputed to be Masa's brother in law or some such thing and
is available only on some model of S&W.  The rings contain rare earth
magnets and are quite expensive. (Not to mention your hand sticking to any
metal object in the surrounding counties and screwing up the color TV
anytime you change the channel.)

-Scot
From: ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Police Story (was Re: Summary: Concealed Carry...)
Date: 9 Sep 92 13:08:18 GMT
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group

In article <13400038@iftccu.boeing.com> bressler@iftccu.ca.boeing.com (Rick Bressler) writes:
#
#Remember one hit with a .380 is better than 5 misses with a .454, unless
#you are close enough to get them with the concussion of the muzzle 
#blast. :-)

This remark reminded me of a story that some may find amusing, or frightening
as the case may be. I have an acquaintence who works on a small midwestern
police force. He was chasing a suspect down an alley when the perp ducked
between two "shotgun" houses and grabbed his hat. This was a sign that the
perp was going into "passing gear" and about to leave my friend in the dust.
My friend carries a Redhawk as his duty weapon. He decided to fire a "warning"
shot above the fleeing suspect's head. Side note, a shotgun house has all
it's rooms in a single row on a very narrow lot. There's about 24 inches
between buildings. Anyway the Ruger booms and the perp goes flat on his
face. My friend races up to the perp with thoughts of "now I'm in for it"
racing through his mind for having shot a suspect in the back. Much to
his surprise, he finds the perp intact and trembling. The perp says, "I 
give up! Just don't shoot that thing again!" The concussion had knocked
him down, not to mention deafening him.

Gary
From: reb@amc.com (Bob Brunjes)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: more handloading info required...
Date: 5 Sep 92 14:57:21 GMT
Organization: Applied Microsystems, Redmond, WA

In article <9208311519.AA12725@bigguy.eng.ufl.edu> glock@chip.cba.ufl.edu (Joe Granto) writes:
#Okay, so my friend and I decided on Lee handloading equipment.  It should 
#arrive in a couple of days.  Now I have some very important questions:
#
#We are interested in handloading 9mm and 10mm rounds, and own Glocks.  I 
#know that Glocks can take very high pressures, and was wondering if anyone 
#out there can give me the upper limits of what a Glock 17 and 20 can handle (
#eg, a 10mm 185 gr JHP moving at 1800fps, or however else it should be 
 Yowee! Them's .44 mag ballistics, and entirely out of  the 10mm league.  While
 Hodgdon has printed such a load for years (in .44 mag), and I've shot it for
 years, it's still almost unbelievable in a .44.  It's reforkingdiculous in a 
 10mm.  A load like this in a Glock would spread plastic faster than the 
 Tupperware Corporation.
#stated).
#
#Thanks.


Bob Brunjes		Applied Microsystems Corp
			Redmond, WA
			reb@amc.com
From: r36110m@kaira.hut.fi (Mika Matti Jalava)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: pressure stamp
Date: 11 Sep 92 14:05:22 GMT
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland

In article <199209102213.AA07986@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary) writes:

#There is something very odd here: "kp" would probably mean a kilopacsal,
#or 1000 Newtons/m^2. What exactly a "Kp/cm^2" means, I'm not sure. It
#_might_ mean 700,000 Newtons/cm^2 (or 70,000 kilopascals = 700 atm. =

Could it be kiloponds/cm^2 (equivalent to kg/cm^2)? That's a rather
common old pressure unit. 700 kp/cm^2 would be 700 atm, which I
imagine is a rather reasonable pressure for a BP gun (of which I know
little to nothing).

Don't take the information above as a definite truth, it's just what I
think I remember. Check it somewhere else before relying on it.

	Mika
From: C96@vm.urz.Uni-Heidelberg.de (Alexander EICHENER)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: What kp means (Was: Re: pressure stamp)
Date: 11 Sep 92 14:05:29 GMT
Organization: University of Heidelberg, Germany

In article <199209102213.AA07986@ucsu.Colorado.EDU>
fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary) writes:

#In article <1992Sep9.215727.25015@cbnewse.cb.att.com> sfaber@ihlpb.att.com (Ste
#I saw a black powder rifle that had the barrel stamped
#700 Kp/cm^2
#Can anyone translate this to psi or offer some idea
#of what unit Kp is?

#There is something very odd here: "kp" would probably mean a kilopascal,
#or 1000 Newtons/m^2. What exactly a "Kp/cm^2" means, I'm not sure. It
#_might_ mean 700,000 Newtons/cm^2 (or 70,000 kilopascals = 700 atm. =

Sorry: there is nothing odd and Frank is wrong. "kp" means *kilopond* and
is the weight of a mass of 1 kilogramm under normal gravitation accele-
ration. The unit is obsolete now for some years, however, and has been
replaced by the SI-unit "Newton" since 1969/1977. 1 N = 1 kg x m/s^2
   1 kp = 1000 p (pond) = 9.80665 N (Newton)
To change into the Anglo-American unit system:
   1 lbf (pound-force) = 1 lb x 9.80665 m/s^2 <sic> = 4,4482216 Newton

Hope this could be helpful; of course, I deny any responsability for
errors with disastrous consequences :-)

Greetings, Alexander Eichener <c96@vm.urz.uni-heidelberg.de>
From: cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (Chris Luchini)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: HOMAK gun cabnet for sale
Date: 7 Sep 92 00:39:26 GMT
Organization: High Energy Physics, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign

I've got one of the homak gun 'safes' for sale. It's about 3'x2'x5'
and has 2 tubular key locks. 

I'm asking $110. I can deliver it anywhere in the Chicago or Champaign/
Urbana area (or anyplace in between) for an additional $10.
-Chris

*1110 W. Green/Urbana IL 61801/217-333-0505/cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu 
* for sale: Springfield Armory Factory Comp, 38 Super, +3 mags. All new
* in box (never fired at all).  $650 or best offer over $600 as of Sep 30.
From: dak@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (David Kardelis- I am the NRA)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Guns for sale
Date: 11 Sep 92 20:12:15 GMT
Organization: High Energy Physics, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign


	Dire financial straits require me to sell the following.

	Dan Wesson 44 mag 6" Vent Heavy barrel ANIB $335 + shipping
		less than 200 rds through gun, mostly lead. 

	AMT Lightning 22 pistol. This is a SS copy of the RUGER MarkII. 
	with 3 mags.			$230 + shipping

	Pistol Pal pistol safe NIB. I have one of each of the 2 models.
	both models have a Simplex push button lock for quick easy access.

	1) bolts directly to floor or wall through punchouts on safe

					$105 +shipping(~$5)
	2) bolts to floor etc by means of a base plate. The safe can be 
moved to different locations by unlocking the drawer. Extra base plates can be 
had for $15. 
					$120+(~$6 shipping)
	

	Must have appropriate paper work. FOID in IL, FFL outside Ill.

					dave
==========================================================================
   David Kardelis		| I am the NRA-NRA Life
   Gradual Student in Physics   |
   Univ. of Ilinois		|	Looking for a new .SIG
   dak@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu	|
   217-333-0505			|
Not necessarily the views of the ISSC or the UI At UC
==========================================================================
From: lairdb@crash.cts.com
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Hand-loads for defense (was Re: Occasional Dud in Glock 20)
Date: 11 Sep 92 02:51:09 GMT

In <13400041@iftccu.boeing.com> bressler@iftccu.ca.boeing.com (Rick Bressler) writes:
#/ iftccu:rec.guns / forda@gtephx.UUCP (Andrew Ford @ AGCS, Phoenix, Arizona) /  8:16 pm  Sep  8, 1992 /

##A very good post!  Let me add one thing: a better way to "not talk to the
##officers at the scene" is to have a prepared statement (prepared today,
##before you face the threat) to the effect of "I'm sorry, but I'm too
##shook up to talk right now -- all I know is that it was either he killed
##[me/her/him/...] or I killed him.  Can we talk more in the morning?"

#Also good comments.  My slight refinement would be to avoid any
#statement that is obvious and could cast any sort of shadow on yourself.
#It is important to establish the (correct) dynamics of the situation.
#This does NOT (usually) include the fact that you shot somebody.  That
#is kind of obvious.

Good stuff, this.  Another note:  (I think I read this in _Gravest Extreme_,
but whether I did or not, it's quite sensible)  The responding officers are
going to be pretty nervous, particularly (once you've convinced them that
*you're* not a threat) about whether there is anyone else around worth
worrying about.  Thus, a succinct *tactical* summary is probably in order,
something like:
 "This is the only one I saw, and I [have, have not] checked the rest
  of the house.  My [family, friend, pet mongoose] is in the bedroom,
  please be careful.  There's no back door.  Can we talk more *later*?"

Or some such, amended as appropriate.

-- 
Laird P. Broadfield     lairdb@crash.cts.com    ...{ucsd, nosc}!crash!lairdb
Hi!  I'm a shareware signature!  Send $5 if you use me, send $10 for manual!
From: erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: RE: Soviet SKS...
Date: 14 Sep 92 22:41:40 GMT


Rob writes:
#All SKSes currently being imported, even the one from the
#Middle East that Century has, are of Chinese manufacture.  In all

Mitchell Arms used to import Yugoslavian SKSs, at about twice the price
of the Chinese guns.


Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
Protect the Second Amendment - boycott Ruger products
"That's not true," Bill hissed to his lawyer. "The facts are-"
"Don't worry about facts, Bill, no one else here does. Facts can't
alter this case."       -"Bill the Galactic Hero" Harry Harrison
From: hays@ssd.intel.com (Kirk Hays)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Mossberg 500 vs Rem 8
Date: 10 Sep 92 12:28:39 GMT
Organization: Intel Supercomputer Systems Division

In article <1992Sep9.184932.29708@henson.cc.wwu.edu>, n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:
|> On the Ithaca 37, doesn't the fact that the shotgun will go off as you
|> pump it when the trigger is held down detract from accuracy?   I would
|> have to try it to be sure, but it seems like having to pull the trigger
|> for each shot, ala Moss 500 and Rem 870, would lend itself better to 
|> accuracy.

Well, there's a technique to be learned - you `stab' your pumping hand at the
target on the forward stroke.  It takes practice (what doesn't?).

I've cleanly doubled on flushed doves many times using this technique, out to
about 30 yards.

I once tripled, but had the accursed luck of no witnesses, except the dog, who
wouldn't tell...

A young woman I once dated, Denise Finegal, who's father owned the local trap
club, once broke six simultaneously thrown clay targets using this technique,
while I watched.  She was, if I'm not mistaken, later the Arizona Women's
Champion.

Since you don't have to pull the trigger, just slam the forearm back and forth,
you can achieve cyclic rates approaching (if not exceeding) that of machine guns.

-- 
Kirk Hays - NRA Life.
Start your day with a little civil disobedience.  Call BATF at 1-800-ATF-GUNS or
1-800-RUN-GUNS, tell them what you think of gun grabbers and government employees
that encourage people to narc on their neighbors.  Good for the soul.
From: towle@vssteg.enet.dec.com (Clark Towle Gunsmith)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Sears shotgun
Date: 11 Sep 92 14:05:31 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


In article <9209091703.AA01471@a2.cim.cdc.com>, jaf@a2.cim.cdc.com (James Foster x2197) writes...
#I have a Sears 12 gauge pump shotgun from the mid 1970's.  Does anybody
#know who was likely to have manufactured this (Savage maybe?), and 
#how to tell exactly?  It handles 3" shells and came with two barrels,
#one a slug barrel.  I need to replace the slug barrel and would like to have a 
#starting point for what I'm looking for when calling local shops.

 Jim,

 Look at the barrel for a Sears Model number. It will be a XXXX.XXXX number 
format.

 The Gun Parts Corp catalog has a cross reference listing where the Sears 
model numbers are referenced to the exact manufacturer.

 A local Gunsmith or Gun shop should have the GPC catalog handy. If you can't 
find anyone local, send me E-Mail including the model number and I'll look it 
up for you.