HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sloubtin@dsg.cs.tcd.ie (Sylvain Louboutin)
Subject: Re: Let's test the sevens-in-Bible phenomenon!
Organization: DSG, Dept. of Computer Science, Trinity College Dublin
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 14:36:15 GMT

In <4729384@gloin.unh.edu> Kalter@unh.edu writes:

>Let's have a little intellectual honesty here.  The skeptics are in
>business to investicate and test any testable claims of the extraordinary.
>The prospect that off-the-shelf original-language books of the Bible
>produce sevens when run through an objective formula has got to be
>THE MOST TESTABLE CLAIM ever to come down the pike.  It do, or it don't.
>Cynicism aside, anyone who knows that there is hard evidence on an issue,
>has not examined it, knows that another has made an observation, yet
>says "I don't need to see for myself; they're just WRONG!" does not
>truly adhere to the skeptic's philosophy.  A skeptic would insist on a
>second opinion.  BRING IN THE EVIDENCE. LET THE GAMES BEGIN!

even if it works,  what would it prove?  some writing styles define
incredibly complex rules e.g. alexandrins (how would you say that in
English?) is one of the simplest form of these formal forms of witting;
my Chinese teacher once tried to explain to us some of the intricated
rules governing some form of poem writing in Chinese (I don't remember
the name, sorry);  may be was the Greek version of the bible written
following one of these formal form of writing?  (which does not seem so
unreasonable for a text written for some 'holly' purpose...)


-- 
//Sylvain R.Y. Louboutin, fax: (+353-1)772204, e-mail: Louboutin@dsg.cs.tcd.ie
//Distributed System Group, O'Reilly Institute, room F.35, (+353-1)7021539 ...
//Department of Computer Science, Trinity College, Dublin 2, -Ireland-  ASK-18
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Carl J Lydick)
Subject: Re: Let's test the sevens-in-Bible phenomenon!
Reply-To: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 21:09:30 GMT

In article <6937583@gloin.unh.edu>, kalter@unh.edu writes:
>     Does it make sendse now, why I said earlier that it was important
>for the _*SKEPTICS*_ on this conference to look into the issue more closely?

No, it doesn't.  The claim was not simply that one could analyze a particular
passage from the Bible and come up with a lot of sevens, but that the fact that
one could do so proves that the Bible is, indeed, the word of God.  The latter
in no way follows from the former.  All the former implies is that someone, for
some reason, may have taken the time and effort to imbed these seven-fold
things into the text.  Considering that numerology has been around for quite
some time and that the number 7 is important to Judaism, it's not very
surprising to find something like this.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CARL@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Laplace' Quote
From: b14817@asbt01.gedlab.allied.com (JON W. PARKER)
Date: 2 Sep 92 21:17:56 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: ASAC, GED, Phoenix, Az


[stuff deleted]
> 
>>The stability of the solar system *is* an unsolved problem.  
> 
> 	Perhaps not a completely solved one, but some work _has_ been
> done in that direction via long-time simulations. The result: the
> Solar System is weakly chaotic. This does not mean that the planets
> simply bounce around, Velikovsky-style, but it does mean that the
> planets' orbit parameters are chaotic _within definite boundaries_.
> The time scale of this chaos is significant: a couple of million years
> or so if memory serves me correctly, much too long for Velikovskian
> catastrophes in historical times.
> 

Your model assumes no outside source of energy.  Velikovski's assumes an
outside source of energy, ie a cometary body.  

> 	However, the simulations extend back to only a fraction of the
> age of the Solar System, so we are missing tests of stability over
> that time. I suspect that such a test would have to be statistical,
> due to the orbit chaos.

Has anyone done simulations that investigate the possible effects of a
Velikovski type incident? 
-- 
JON W. PARKER    Allied-Signal Aerospace, Garrett Engine Division, Phoenix, Az
Aeronet: GED::ASBT01::b14817           Internet: b14817@asbt01.gedlab.allied.com
UUCP: ...!{hrc|mcdphx|asuvax}!gedphx!decnet!asbt01!b14817
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
******STANDARD DISCLAIMER******
He who hesitates, meditates in the horizontal position.  Edmund Parker
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: wsadjw@rw6.urc.tue.nl (Jan Willem Nienhuys)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Skeptic book
Date: 14 Sep 92 13:45:23 GMT
Reply-To: wsadjw@urc.tue.nl
Organization: Eindhoven University of Technology, The Netherlands


Announcing a book:

SCIENCE OR PSEUDO?  THE MARS EFFECT AND OTHER CLAIMS
Proceedings of the Third EuroSkeptics Congress
October 4-5, 1991, Amsterdam
Edited by J.W. Nienhuys (yours truly)
ISBN 90-73517-08-7

A table of contents of this interesting 0.5 MB text appears at the
end of this post. Read articles by Kurtz, Hines and Randi.
The inside story on crop circles.  The last word about the famous
Mars effect of Gauquelin and the amazing defense of Madame 
Francoise Schneider-Gauquelin!  The saga of a successful rebuttal
of a Creationist claim, the value of psychotherapy and what you
wanted to know about quantum mechanics (but were afraid to ask).

This book will be published by Stichting Skepsis. It will cost
DFL 25.-;  I will bring the text to the printer on October 9, 1992,
and two weeks after that the book will be ready.  I can offer a
pre-publication price of DFL 17.50 for any foreigner (= someone
not resident in The Netherlands) whose order is in my possession
before October 9.  Price includes shipping.

Payment by credit card: all major cards accepted (VISA, Master,
Eurocard, Diners Club, American Express).  I will need your
card number, expiration date, your signature, and a statement
that you want that book for DFL 17.50.

Payment by cash: U.S.$ 11.- 
NO personal checks please; international banking costs are prohibitive.


J.W. Nienhuys
Dommelseweg 1A
5581 VA Waalre
The Netherlands

e-mail: wsadjw@urc.tue.nl



Table of Contents
Preface	v
*Paul Kurtz:
In the Eye of the Beholder: The Psychology of Paranormal Belief	1
*J. Hilgevoord:
The world according to Quantum Mechanics	11
*Steven F. Hartkamp:
Should the state interfere in paranormal practices?	19
*Rob H. Nanninga:
Skeptics and parapsychologists.  Let's cooperate!	33
*Wim Betz:
The Struggle of Alternative Medicine for Recognition	42
*M. Heap:
Science in Everyday Life	49
*Terence Hines:
Placebo Practioners.  
Psychotherapists as Native Healers from Park Avenue to Borneo	59
*Michael E. Howgate:
Looking for a Witness of the Flood	69
*Claudio Benski:
A Pedagogical Project of Paranormal Research in an Engineering School	77
*Robert Koenig, Juergen Moll, James Randi, Amardeo Sarma:
A Test of Dowsing Claims in Kassel.  Aims, Methods, Results	85
*Martin Hempstead:
Crop Circle Expertise	93
*J.W. Nienhuys:
Introduction to the Mars Effect	112
*Cornelis de Jager and Rieks Jager:
Spurious periodicities in planetary correlations and the Mars effect	129
*P.H. Jongbloet:
Circannual and Circadian Biological Rhythms in Relation to Eminency	148
*Carl E. Koppeschaar:
The Mars effect unriddled	162
*Suitbert Ertel:
Mars effect survives critique of Dutch skeptics	185
*Francoise Schneider-Gauquelin:
Examining rational explanations of the Mars Effect	204
Index 	224
Xref: sparky sci.skeptic:16162 talk.origins:11080
From: seanna@bnr.ca (Seanna Watson)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.origins
Subject: Re: Deja vu all over again...
Date: 9 Sep 92 18:08:00 GMT
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada

In article <1992Sep9.080849.1922@ttinews.tti.com> bsmart@bsmart.TTI.COM (Bob Smart) writes:
>In article <1992Sep4.232921.20507@hfsi.uucp>, ata@hfsi.uucp (John Ata
>FSO) writes:
>
>> I thought that I rememebered a fellow by the name of Vern who did
>> espouse the idea that evolution and God were inconsistent?  As a matter
>> of fact, you replied to him! Remember?
>
>Eeek, you're quite right.  What I meant, and utterly failed to say, was
>that nobody OTHER THAN CREATIONISTS had said such a thing.  Several
>creationists have made such claims, and doubtless will continue to make them.

Excuse me, but Vern (aka Gerald Vernon Nelson) appears to be an atheist,
not a creationist:

In article <1992Aug26.015019.25683@ccu.umanitoba.ca>, vnelson@ccu.umanitoba.ca
(Gerald Vernon Nelson) writes (in response to Chris Colby):

Chris:
>>Also, can you back up your repeated assertion that "evolutionists"
>>take this one step further and say "... so therefore there is no
>>god." I haven't seen anybody on t.o. say that. I haven't seen
>>any evolutionary biologists say that. I (a grad student studying
>>evolutionary biology) don't claim that. I've never seen a text
>>in the field make this claim. Where are these phantom hoards of 
>>people arguing in this manner?

Vern:
>I'm one, and proud of it.  I was raised without religious bias
>and the idea of evolution co-existing with god is an atrocity.

>All of the evidence you agree to is mutually exclusive to the 
>concept of god.  How can someone cling to such an idea?
>It is shown again and again, that things just didn't happen
>as depicted in the Bible, yet people stubbornly believe the
>general idea, there is a god, and he created all life.

At the time, several atheists and/or agnostics as well as Christians
(obviously non-creationists) vehemently disagreed with Vern's assertion. 
-- 
Seanna Watson   Bell-Northern Research, 
(seanna@bnr.ca) Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Opinions, what opinions?  Oh *these* opinions. | Occam's razor split 
No, they're not BNR's, they're mine.           | hairs so well, I bought 
I knew I'd left them somewhere.                | the whole argument.
Xref: sparky sci.skeptic:16321 talk.origins:11244
From: wsadjw@rw7.urc.tue.nl (Jan Willem Nienhuys)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.origins
Subject: Re: "Live Dinosaurs"
Date: 12 Sep 92 14:14:59 GMT
Reply-To: wsadjw@urc.tue.nl
Followup-To: sci.skeptic
Organization: Eindhoven University of Technology, The Netherlands

In article <1992Sep10.133825@IASTATE.EDU> danwell@IASTATE.EDU (Daniel A Ashlock) writes:
#In article <13732.2aae8b9e@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu>,
#hjort@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu writes:
#> I just saw a little blurb on the news just now. I didn't give
#> any details, but the story was apparently there was this museum
#> display featuring "live" dinosaurs that were mechanically animated
#> displays. Apparently some people thought they were going to see
#> living dinosaurs, and are demanding thier money back.
#> 
#> I thought it was worth a chuckle, but it also reflects sadly on
#> America's education system.
#
#   Or comments on the active sabotage by the ICR and their 
#running dog lackeys.
#
#   Thanks.  Additional details: it was the "Dinosaurs Live" exhibit and it
#happened in Louisiana, according to the Des Mones Register.
#

It just goes to show that some people will try anything to squeeze
money out of something.  Nothing related to education.
JWN
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Maps of the Charioteers of the Gods
From: lippard@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu (James J. Lippard)
Date: 8 Sep 1992 11:33 MST  
Distribution: world,local
Organization: University of Arizona
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <92Sep08.155232.32789@acs.ucalgary.ca>, edstrom@Elmer.hsc.ucalgary.ca (John Edstrom) writes...
> 
>Somebody was telling me recently that they saw a scientist on TV who
>claims that medieval cartographers had a map of Antarctica which
>showed the mountains and valleys under the ice which only deep-sensing
>radar has recently revealed.  The scientist, my source claims, was a
>geographer who had worked on the survey of Antarctica.

Check out David C. Jolly, "Was Antarctica Mapped by the Ancients?",
_Skeptical Inquirer_ vol. 11, no. 1, Fall 1986, pp. 32-43.  This article
says that in 1984 the New York Times printed an article which described
the work of University of Colorado at Denver geologist (not geographer)
John Weihaupt, who was claiming that the coastline of Antarctica a few
thousand years ago resembled ancient maps.  Jolly points out some mistakes
in Weihaupt's work and argues that he's wrong.

The NYT reference is Sep. 25, 1984, p. C2.  Weihaupt's paper is in
EOS, Trans. Amer. Geophys. Union 65(Aug. 28, 1984):493-501.  The Dec.
18, 1984 issue, pp. 1226-1227 contains a response from L. Lliboutry.
See the Jolly article for more refs.

Jim Lippard              Lippard@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU
Dept. of Philosophy      Lippard@ARIZVMS.BITNET
University of Arizona
Tucson, AZ 85721
Xref: sparky sci.skeptic:16188 talk.origins:11112
From: hjort@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.origins
Subject: "Live Dinosaurs"
Date: 9 Sep 92 23:41:18 EDT

I just saw a little blurb on the news just now. I didn't give
any details, but the story was apparently there was this museum
display featuring "live" dinosaurs that were mechanically animated
displays. Apparently some people thought they were going to see
living dinosaurs, and are demanding thier money back.

I thought it was worth a chuckle, but it also reflects sadly on
America's education system.

I just thought you might want to know.

					-Hans H Hjort

Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: kappa@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Glenn Capuano)
Subject: Re: Maps of the Charioteers of the Gods
Organization: Monash University General Access Unix
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 01:40:02 GMT

John Edstrom (edstrom@Elmer.hsc.ucalgary.ca) wrote:
: 
: Somebody was telling me recently that they saw a scientist on TV who
: claims that medieval cartographers had a map of Antarctica which
: showed the mountains and valleys under the ice which only deep-sensing
: radar has recently revealed.  The scientist, my source claims, was a
: geographer who had worked on the survey of Antarctica.
: 
: This one is news to me.  It sounds odd to me that they could have a
: map of the south pole when they didn't know about north&south America,
: Australia, southern Africa and most of Asia and the Pacific ocean.

	He's probably referring to the Piri Reis (sp?) map, which was
supposedly found in 1927, and thought to have been used in the 1600's
(sorry I'm unsure of the details here). The mystery was that it showed
many areas which were unknown in 1600 and also supposedly the mountains
under the antarctic ice which weren't even known in 1927. I am unaware of
any recent developments here, maybe someone else can help?

						Regards,
						     Glenn

Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: ata@hfsi.uucp (John Ata FSO)
Subject: Re: I visited the ICR in person (1 of 4)
Organization: HFS, Inc.
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 22:26:01 GMT

In article <LEET.92Sep14084057@dove.ims.com> leet@ims.com (Lee Thomas) writes:
>>>>>> On Fri, 11 Sep 1992 23:08:27 GMT, ata@hfsi.uucp (John Ata FSO) said:
>
>John> But does a creationist really mean simply one who believes in
>John> Creation?  I've never seen it that way.  In ordinary usage, I
>John> thought that a creationist is one who believes in Creation as
>John> described literally in Genesis.
>
>I visited last night with Dr. Dmitri Kouznetsov of Russia, and he said
>that Russian scientists have been converting to creationism on the basis
>of the scientific evidence, then some time *later* (2 years, in his
>particular case) converting to Christianity.  They are, therefore,
>creationists long before they are believers in Genesis.  His creation
>science association has several members who are not currently Christians.
>They believe that what they see was created <ex nihilo> by
>*something*, but science cannot answer *what* (or *who*) created it.

I didn't know that one had to be a Christian to believe in Genesis.  I 
guess I'm not following your reasoning...

When you say "what they see was created out of nothing", surely you don't
mean that literally.  After all, they were all born of parents weren't
they?

>Lee Thomas,  leet@ims.com      | "But foolish and unlearned questions avoid,
-- 
John G. Ata - Technical Consultant | Internet:  ata@hfsi.com
HFS, Inc.		  VA20     |     UUCP:  uunet!hfsi!ata
7900 Westpark Drive	 MS:601	   |    Voice:	(703) 827-6810
McLean, VA  22102	           |      FAX:	(703) 827-3729
From: tobis@meteor.wisc.edu (Michael Tobis)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Brain and Mind (was: Logic and God)
Date: 8 Sep 92 22:10:34 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin, Meteorology and Space Science

In article <1992Sep08.193157.14284@srg.srg.af.mil> dpipes@spica.srg (Dave Pipes x4552) writes:
>In article <1992Sep7.220009.16992@meteor.wisc.edu> tobis@meteor.wisc.edu (Michael Tobis) writes:

>>I claim that [the mind] cannot be defined in a scientifically rigorous
>>way, and hence its origin "in" the brain cannot be said to be demonstrated.

>So why, then, would physical damage to the brain affect consciousness?  

I do not deny that the brain is connected to consciousness in some way.

>You
>just stated a set of beliefs which should allow consciousness to arise without
>a brain, just not dependent on complexity - ie, it could be anywhere.  But
>we do not see consciousness in trees or rocks, and we do not see damage to
>consciousness from a broken leg.  Only brain injuries do it.  The evidence is
>against you.

I suspect that trees and rocks are not conscious, but I am not certain of
it. However, I will stipulate for the purposes of argument that a brain 
or other information processing device is necessary for consciousness
to exist. This does not prove that it is sufficient. My point is that
no such proof is possible, because the phenomenon is unobserveable in
any objective sense. 

>You cannot assert that the answer to the mind-body problem lies in the brain,
>and then deny any connection between the brain and the mind.  

I make no such denial. 

>> Dennett, in "Brainstorms" 
>>at least mentions the dualist hypothesis briefly, but in contrast 
>>to his usual closely reasoned analysis, dismisses it by saying "I am not
>>sympathetic to such an approach"! 

>Because it would allow consciousness to arise anywhere, in anything, with
>absolutely no susceptibility to test or inquiry, thus rendering his work
>futile and useless.  No wonder he is "not sympathetic".

Lack of sympathy does not constitute a refutation. I am afraid that the
question of consciousness is indeed not susceptible to test, and that
such inquiry must always be tentative and speculative on that account.

mt
From: lfoard@Turing.ORG (Lawrence C. Foard)
Subject: Re: Evolutionism must be defeated!
Organization: The Turing Project, Charlottesville Virginia.
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 18:09:18 GMT

In article <92248.120232U19807@uicvm.uic.edu> <U19807@uicvm.uic.edu> writes:
>In article <1992Sep3.062836.7924@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>, twlane@nyx.cs.du.edu ()
>says:
>>
>>If you finger believer@world.std.com  you find that the account does indeed
>>belong to Frank G. Sesco.  I wonder if he left himself logged in and
>>someone decided to play a joke.
>
>Probably not. I scanned some of his other posts,and it's hard to believe that
>anybody would be dumb enough to let that happen three times in a row.

If only all the fundy's where joking, but there are people who believe
this bullshit. Enough so that the OCA's anti homosexual law (or is it
an admendment) will probably pass in Oregon. 

It requires that no state money or property be used to support
homosexuality. This has already been interpreted by the OCA to mean that
protests on government land (street) will be illegal, and that people fired
over sexual orientation will not qualify for unemployment insurance.

It also requires that school teachers teach that homosexuality is wrong.

A similar measure passed in Springfield Oregon and they are using it to try
to remove all books from the public library that cast homosexuality in a
favorable light. 

Fundy-mentalists seem like jokes until you realize that they can control
through force.
-- 
------          Join the Pythagorean Reform Church!               .
\    /        Repent of your evil irrational numbers             . .
 \  /   and bean eating ways. Accept 10 into your heart!        . . .
  \/   Call the Pythagorean Reform Church BBS at 508-793-9568  . . . .
    
From: Cliff.Fleming@iphase.UUCP (Cliff Fleming)
Sender: FredGate@iphase.UUCP
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Worthless, compared to?
Date: 10 Sep 92  22:46:00 EST

      You're late Mr. Ashlock!

      Maybe it took B.C. to strike home for you, but mindless right wing drivel has been going on in the comics for years. If you can stomach it, try reading The Family Circus. The asshole steals all his ideas  from watching reruns of "Father Knows Best", "Ozzie and Harriet", or maybe "Leave it to Beaver" if he's feeling particularly restless. At least B.C. doesn't rely on the vanishing species of white, middle class, single income (mom is a housewife), suburban, christian families for its situational "hum
or".
     I agree that such tripe and propaganda can be nauseating at times. But let's be fair about the situation.I'm sure that plenty of "conservatives" have been irritated reading many episodes of substance abuse by Duke in Doonesbury. Steve Dallas from Bloom County was regarded as a questionable role model by some. (Tried a tequila fannybanger?) Since newspapers have to try to please everyone, it only makes sense that they mix a little right wing flatulence in with their other, more liberal, daily strips.
    At least Mr. Hart attempts to put a little wit in his topic. I didn't think the 486 strip was a bad pun.
                                                  regards,
                                                  Fleming

 * Origin: Aether (1:112/2020)

Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: judiths@eliot.uucp (Judith Speck)
Subject: Re: Info needed: change in ratio male/female
Reply-To: judiths@usisun.UUCP (Judith Speck)
Organization: UNITECH Software, Inc., Reston, VA
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 16:56:32 GMT

In article <1992Sep5.233625.21919@ncsu.edu> hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer) writes:
>In article <1992Aug31.152202.11146@news.nd.edu> wlamonac@purcell.helios.nd.edu (william lamonaca) writes:
>> ...
>>I'd heard the opposite (and not just for Germany, but for any war-torn
>>country)- that more boys are born to make up for those who were killed in
>>the fighting.  Either way, the story is an urban legend- as far as I know,
>>the male/female birth ratio does not change.
>
>  The ratio certainly shows random fluctuations, but in addition there
>is a small age-of-mother effect.  To the best of my memory, younger
>women give birth to a slightly higher percentage of male children than
>older women.
>
>--henry schaffer  n c state univ

  Wait a minute....this makes absolutely no sense.  What has the Mother got
to do with the gender of the child?  I thought it was a game of "The fastest
Sperm Cell Wins!"  Where did you get that age-of-mother factoid?


Just curious....

Judith

Newsgroups: sci.skeptic