HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Ken_Ziolkowski@transarc.com
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: How much crimp is enough?
Date: 3 Sep 92 14:08:58 GMT



  After loading nothing but handgun cartridges
for the last few years I am starting to load
bottleneck rifle cartridges for the first time
and need to crimp them.

  * This is for  a .35 Remington/Marlin 336

  The first few dummy rounds (empty case, bullet,
no primer) had too much and the necks were pretty
crushed, a few more had no crimp at all. After a
little more adjusting, I think I have the die set
right.

  But how much crimp is enough?

Ken
From: dcwst8+@pitt.edu (David C Winters)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Hand-loads for defense
Date: 26 Aug 92 22:58:17 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh


In article <19102@smoke.brl.mil> gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) writes:
#
#In article <5018@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> dcwst8+@pitt.edu (David C Winters) writes:
##in a courtroom: you can say that you thought that the factory ammo was
##inhumane or too deadly ...

[four more reasons why it's a bad idea; deleted]

#If you use deadly force in self defense, be sure it is justified then
#simply maintain to authorities that it was justified.  Any other position
#hurts your case.  Especially, don't be tricked into agreeing to any
#notion that you didn't intend to do exactly what you did, because then
#you'd be legally negligent and subject to stiff lawsuits if not worse.

I know this, and you know this.  I don't think it's a good idea,
personally, but I was just repeating someone else's arguement.  It was
one of the "expert's" reasoning, from an article I read several years
ago.

--
David "Jester" Winters
dcwst8@unix.cis.pitt.edu *OR* winters@vms.cis.pitt.edu

	Illigitimi non carborundum
From: wwarf@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Wayne J. Warf)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: SKS 30 round magazines; Legal?
Date: 1 Sep 92 13:16:31 GMT
Organization: Indiana University

In article <92242.091037RICH@wvnvm.wvnet.edu> RICH%wvnvm.wvnet.edu@VM1.gatech.edu (Richard E. Lynch) writes:
#Could someone tell me, for sure, if 30 round magazines installed on SKS
#rifles are legal or not?  We have been discussing this at work and the
#opinions vary.  There doesn't seem to be any problems in purchasing them.
#However, I seem to remember someone saying that this was made illegal by
#Bush's importation ban.  Anybody know for sure?  I thinking about getting
#one but don't really want to do anything illegal.  Thanks.  -Rich

This alone probably would not be illegal. This and adding a pistol grip
stock might be. In general, the BATF made the ruling that if you make
modifications that would have otherwise made a gun unimportable, it
is the same as importing a prohibited model. Got it? Clear right?
If it's imported before the ban, then you're OK,supposedly.
-- 
 +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
 | Wayne J. Warf -- WWARF@ucs.indiana.edu -- I speak for myself only  |
 |"Government is like fire, a dangerous servant and a fearful master" |
 +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: jackson@cpsc.ucalgary.ca (Dwight Jackson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: (null)
Date: 28 Aug 92 20:34:07 GMT

||From alberta!kakwa.ucs.ualberta.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!ubc-cs!destroyer!gumby!wupost
||!darwin.sura.net!dtix!mimsy!WUVMD.Wustl.Edu Fri Aug 28 08:37:57 MDT 1992
||
||#Dirty Harry
||
||Well, let's see.  Smith & Wesson Model 29, 8 3/8" barrel (barrel
||length is argueable to some)
||
||Automag, .44

Actually, (from Sudden Impact of course!) what is shown is one of a pair of
custom made, highly polished "A" Model Auto Mags, with 8.5" full vent rib
barrels in .44 AMP that were made specifically for Mr. Eastwood.  Serial
numbers are "CLINT 1" and "CLINT 2", with the first being fully functional,
and the second just an action firing "blank" gun with a barrel restriction
so it can cycle for the movies.

The prop person who looks after the firearms on all of Eastwoods movies says
that the S&W M29 has a 7" (or was it 7.5" ?) barrel.  Have a reference for it
someplace...


||Others?
||
||#John Wayne's characters
||
||   . . .

just nit pickin' I guess...

...dwight
From: towle@vssteg.enet.dec.com (Clark Towle Gunsmith)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Mini-14 accuracy
Date: 2 Sep 92 19:04:37 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


In article <9209012048.AA21277@gyre.cs.UMD.EDU>, wmartin@STL-06SIMA.ARMY.MIL (Will Martin) writes...
# 
#Several people recently have mentioned disappointment in the accuracy of 
#the Mini-14, especially if compared with an AR-15 or clone. For their 
#information, I cite an ad that has been on the front page of Shotgun News
#for several issues (at least) recently:
# 
#"MINI-14 OWNERS: Our match quality heavy bbl. conversion will turn your
#'Mini' into a one M.O.A. weapon. SASE for brochure to: Accuracy Rifle
#Systems, PO Box 13772, Odessa, TX 79768"
# 
#I know nothing else about this; anyone out there have any experience with
#this conversion? Has it been reviewed in any of the gun mags? (I don't
#recall seeing any such review.)
# 
#Regards, Will
#wmartin@st-louis-emh2.army.mil OR wmartin@stl-06sima.army.mil
# 
#[MODERATOR:  I saw that and wondered too.  I'll be pleased if someone
#can post a summary of this.]


 Info I recieved from them indicates they bebarrel the action with a much 
heavier match grade barrel which also has a tighter chamber, and additionally 
they bed the action. The standard Ruger barrel being of such a small profile 
tends to be too "whippy" therefore when you bed the action, sufficient front 
band pressure cannot be applied to damp it down enough to improve accuracy 
without actually bending the barrel. Heat generated from continuous firing 
aggravates this condition which causes groups to wander. It is possible to 
apply enough front band pressure on the standard barrel to lower the point of 
impact several inches at 100 yards. In addition, Ruger chambers their barrels 
to GI specs which are more liberal than SAMMI specs and in my experience some
Ruger factory barrels also have "wows" in them, I.E. When you push a patch 
down the bore it all of a sudden feels like you've hit a loose spot, or "WOW", 
and the rod seems to jump an inch or two with little resistance before it gets 
tight again. :-) this condition does not contribute to tack driving accuracy.
 The heavier match barrel allows for more predictable "whip" because with the 
added stiffness of the heavier barrel and the front band pressure that needs 
to be applied to control it is done without deforming, (bending) the barrel.
From: JCEHC%CUNYVM.BITNET@mitvma.mit.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: What's the deal with Colt?
Date: 4 Sep 92 02:33:23 GMT
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center

In article <1992Aug27.163017.19460@smartstar.com>, smrtstr!syspb@uu.psi.com
(Paul) says:
#
#I saw a Colt Anaconda 44mag in the store a few months ago.  When I went
#back to buy it, it was gone.  It had a 6 in barrel.  Now the store says
#they can't get any more of them because the factory workers are on
#strike.  Is that true?  They said models with 4 in barrels are available,
#but the 6 in barrel models are hard to get.  The same thing happened a
#few years ago.  I saw a nice 38 special revolver called a Colt Agent.
#It had an alloy frame and held 5 shots.  When I went back to get one
#they said that Colt was on strike then too.  I never saw one of those
#revolvers again, anywhere.  Why does Colt keep going on strike?
#I heard a rumor that they were going to file for Chapter 11, too.
#Is that true?

   Colt is not on Strike, and they already filed for chapter 11 last
March.  The reason you can't get a six inch Anaconda, was because
none were being made.

   For the past ten months I have been working for a gun distributor,
one who handles Colt, but is also a parts vendor for Colt.  One thing I
learned is that Colt schedules the production of certain guns at certain
times.  When none of a certain, popular model such as the Anaconda
is being made, lucky is the distributor or the dealer who has some
on hand.  This method not only allows them to make a larger
variety of models but also maintains price integrity (a big problem
in the gun business) by making certain popular models scarce every
few months.

  And one more thing, when your dealer or distributor has the gun
you want for sale, it doesn't mean they will have the next day
for the same price.  The gun business is not one of the more
rational industries.

Michael Gordon
From: kdw@icd.ab.com (Kenneth D. Whitehead)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Black Talon Bullets
Date: 2 Sep 92 20:55:30 GMT
Organization: Allen-Bradley Company, Inc.

#I've personally seen the demos on these; they are impressive.  IMHO
#they will prove to be more effective than other jhp's as "stoppers"
#and will change the Marshall statistics after a few years of field
#use results.  They expand into a wide jagged projectile and would leave
#a real mess for a surgeon to repair - if possible.

Well, it sounds like the Black Talons should work, but...

What happens when you dust a bad guy and the prosecutor finds out about this
b-a-a-a-d ammo you've been using?  Wouldn't you find yourself in the same
potential fix as the guy who used special handloads?
From: ho%helen.CS.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Kinson Ho)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Beretta 92 problems
Date: 26 Aug 92 02:14:50 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

I have a couple of questions for owners of the Beretta 92FS (9mm, fullsize)

a. Are you happy with its performance?  Have you had problems with it? 
   How many rounds have you put through it?  (I am interested in long
   term reliability.)  Do you have the blued or stainless model?
   Is rusting a problem?


b. [I am aware that the cracked frames in the armed services trials 
    were attributed to "hot" ammo.]


   Two local ranges have told me problems with the 92:

   One range (which does NOT rent the 92) claimed they have seen 
   *two* incidents of cracked frames (blew up?) at their range.  

   Another range (which rents the 92) said the reliability of the 92
   is very poor.  Both of their 92s were out of service on that day.
   In particular, I was told that some metallurgy
   problem with manufacturing made the US-made (blued) models 
   prone to failure with the locking "lugs", and that they were not
   happy with the service of Beretta-USA regarding this problem.  
   (It's NOT the cracked frame problem.)  They said they no longer
   stock the US-made model (tho they will order it), and suggested the
   Italian-made (stainless) model.  This range happens to be the only
   one in the area that rents the 92.  9mm from Sig, Glock, S&W,
   Browning, Colt and Ruger can all be rented easily. 
   (Strange coincidence?)

   
   Does anyone have similar experiences?  If there is any truth
   in these stories, has the problem been corrected?  The local 
   gun stores will not say anything.


c. Does the 92 feed the popular hollowpoints without jamming?  
   

d. If you had to do it over again, would you choose the 92?


Kinson Ho
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Why a sawed-off shotgun?
Date: 1 Sep 92 20:33:03 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith) writes:

#I don't know if the 'military' has, but I know at least one Vet who
#did...  His name was Terry something-or-other and we worked together
#some years ago.  His favorite thing to carry in the Vietname jungle
#was a double barrel 12 guage sawed off to about a 1-2 inch barrel.

You mean 12 inch barrel?  A 2 inch would look mighty funny with the
tips of the shells sticking out!	(^8.

Jim Del Vecchio
From: ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Rifled Shotguns?
Date: 31 Aug 92 22:02:10 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc.

While wandering through my Shooters Bible looking at shotguns (due to
the recent defense shotgun thread in misc.houses and my interest in 
'quiet' guns which lead to shotguns as slow big bores.) I discovered that
several manufacturers make 'rifled shotguns'.

I assume these are for use in those bizarre states that don't let
you hunt deer with a decent rifle, but insist on shotguns.

Some questions:

1)  How can it be classed as a shotgun if it has a fully rifled barrel?

1.a)  How can if avoid being a 'weapon of mass distruction' due to the
greater than .50 cal bore?

2)  As a home defense weapon, wouldn't the Remingtion 20 inch barrel
fully rifled disperse small shot quicker than the 18 inch defense guns?
Enough to be worth the extra effort to get one?  

3)  Are the fully rifled barrels significantly different in accuracy
than the 'rifled choke tube' offered by some makers?  Which is 'better'
and why?

4)  Do you have to use different kinds of slugs in a rifled barrel, in
a 'sabot rifled choke tube', in a cyl bore smooth bore?


Golly, what a wierd concept though.  A rifled shotgun with a scope ...
And do you really need a scope?  I'd expect this thing to drop like 
a rock after 75 yards ... 


-- 

E. Michael Smith  ems@apple.COM

'Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it.  Boldness has
 genius, power and magic in it.'  -  Goethe

I am not responsible nor is anyone else.  Everything is disclaimed.
From: waymire@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Richard Waymire)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Gun Laws in Shelby County (Memphis), Tennessee
Date: 28 Aug 92 20:34:10 GMT
Organization: Boeing



I have received a new job and will be moving to the Memphis area in a couple
of weeks.  I have been living here in washington for years, and have a 
concealed carry permit.  Can anyone out there tell me about the laws there?
How easy to get a permit?  Are they valid state-wide?  What about reciprical
agreements with other states in the area (a.k.a. Arkansas, Missisippi, et al.)?
What about gun laws in general?

Thanks for the info...

Rich

-- 
****** BOEING WOULD NEVER CLAIM RESPONSIBILITY FOR THIS ******
**************************************************************
Richard Waymire - DBA, Boeing Computer Services
waymire@bcstec.boeing.com or ...uunet!bcstec!waymire
From: bressler@iftccu.ca.boeing.com (Rick Bressler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: S&W J Frames
Date: 27 Aug 92 13:22:51 GMT
Organization: Boeing Commercial Airplane Group


/ iftccu:rec.guns / cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) /  7:14 pm  Aug 25, 1992 /
In article <13400028@iftccu.boeing.com> bressler@iftccu.ca.boeing.com (Rick Bressler) writes:

##It would probably be cheaper to simply have the 'smith bob YOUR hammer.
#
#I wonder--would grinding the hammer down lighten it enough so that you
#might get misfires? I've thought of doing this myself, but have hesitated
#for that reason. 

I'm not saying it can't happen, only that this is a fairly common carry mod, 
Ayoob in fact recommends it in many situations.  Never heard of any of the 
major brands of pistols failing to fire any major brand of primer 
after having had this mod.  Check with your 'smith, but my advice would be 
don't worry about it after that.  I'd also caution against simply 'grinding
it down yourself.'  In Smith pistols at least, this is a fitted part and 
mistakes will be (relatively) expensive.  Besides, you want it to look good.
Get somebody who has done it a few times.

Rick.
From: megatek!hollen@uunet.UU.NET (Dion Hollenbeck)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: What exactly is BLUEING?
Date: 1 Sep 92 20:33:13 GMT
Organization: Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California

#>>>> On 31 Aug 92 22:02:12 GMT, mbh@sdphu1.ucsd.edu (Matt Harrington) said:


Matt> I've been trying to find out what is involved in the blueing process.  Is
Matt> it electrochemical?  Or is it just a chemical coating?  Maybe it's an
Matt> oxide that forms on the surface...  Anyone know?

Blueing is controlled oxidation on the surface.  The oxide is formed
in such a manner as to prevent regular oxidation.  There are
basically three major categories of blueing processes:

1)	Cold blueing using an acid-based thin liquid and is usually
	brushed on with a swab.

Two different hot blueing techiques using a waxy substance which is
heated and melted in a tank and the parts immersed:

2)	Alkaline - heated to about 1200F and turns a dark brown
	color and consistency of mud when melted and gives off 
	incredibly dangerous fumes and in additon to burning with
	heat, will give you an alkaline burn too.  This method will
	yield a more "black" blue than other methods.  Color depends
	on combination of alloy and length of immersion.

3)	Neutral - heated to about 700 to 800F and turns a
	honey-colored, honey thickness, gives off virtually no fumes,
	is not toxic to skin, but will burn badly because of
	temperature. This method can produce colors from golden
	through peacock blue to dark blue and then left in longer
	will go back towards golden blue.  Color depends on alloy
	and length of immersion.




-- 
Dion Hollenbeck       UUCP: {uunet, ucsd, sun}!megatek!hollen
                      INTERNET:            hollen@megatek.com
Megatek Corporation  9645 Scranton Rd.  San Diego, Ca.  92121
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .38/.357 defense load spectrum
Date: 26 Aug 92 21:43:22 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

webdw@mvutd.att.com (Bruce D Woods) writes:

#There is of course MAGNAPORT (slots cut in the top end of barrel).

#Also, in latest Handgunner magazine there's a description of a
#hybrid porting done on some Taurus revolvers which is supposedly
#very effective in reducing muszzle lift w/o a large velocity
#penalty.  (A series of gradually larger holes in top of barrel
#as you go toward muzzle - looks weird).

	I laughed when I saw that: Imagine doing 200 bucks worth of mods 
to a $190 gun.

	A snub .38 with three holes cut in the 2" barrel.  The idea just
seems dumb to me also.   Though nice if a 2" .38 just isn't loud enough
for you I guess.   (^8

Jim Del Vecchio
From: ghm@ccadfa.cc.adfa.oz.au (Geoff Miller)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: What are some famous actor's guns (i.e. James Bond's Walther)
Date: 2 Sep 92 19:04:26 GMT
Organization: Australian Defence Force Academy, Canberra, Australia

ghm@ccadfa.cc.adfa.oz.au (Geoff Miller) writes:
#mbh@sdphu1.ucsd.edu (Matt Harrington) writes:

##Perhaps some readers know the types of guns used by movie characters. 
##An example is that James Bond frequently uses a Walther PPK, if memory
##serves me correctly.
#		    Beretta .25, model unspecified
#		    Colt .45, long barrel
#		    S&W Centennial .38 Special
#		    Walther PPK
#		    Savage 99, .250/3000
#		    Sniper rifle (can't remember make) in Living Daylights

For the sake of completeness, this last is identified in the book as a
modified Winchester target rifle in .308 Win.  Of course, my list
actually referred to the books, not to the films:-)

Geoff Miller
From: eesnyder@boulder.Colorado.EDU (Eric E. Snyder)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Black Talon Bullets
Date: 2 Sep 92 19:04:10 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) writes:

Re: Black Talon Bullets

#We'll have to shoot a lot of people to find out, and that will take time.
#My opinion is that they should be at least as effective in major calibers
#as Federal HydraShok and perhaps slightly better due to the "buzz saw"
#effect of the rotating points.

I have heard this "buzz saw" effect mentioned several times, both here
and in ads from companies like "Blammo" and the like.  Am I correct to 
think that there is *virtually no* increase in soft tissue dammage which
results from the rotation of a bullet around the axis of trajectory?  
Given that the bullet can rotate no faster than rate of twist of the 
rifling, say one turn in 14", this would mean a bullet would make less
than one complete rotation when penetrating a human chest, for example. 

One might argue that translational velocity might be decrease dramatically
when hitting the target leaving rotational velocity (relatively) unchanged.
However, I have a hard time with the notion of a little spinning top sitting
in the wound cavity slicing up the insides of the target.  

Would anyone care to compare the translational and rotational energies
of various projectiles?  I would bet the latter is but a small fraction of the
former...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
TTGATTGCTAAACACTGGGCGGCGAATCAGGGTTGGGATCTGAACAAAGACGGTCAGATTCAGTTCGTACTGCTG
Eric E. Snyder                     I've tried psychotherapy, TV and beer 
Department of MCD Biology          but sometimes I still feel 
University of Colorado, Boulder    like van Gogh's left ear. 
Boulder, Colorado 80309-0347                                --J. Claus 
LeuIleAlaLysHisTrpAlaAlaAsnGlnGlyTrpAspLeuAsnLysAspGlyGlnIleGlnPheValLeuLeu
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: tighe@convex.COM (Mike Tighe)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: UZIs
Date: 25 Aug 92 21:19:59 GMT
Organization: Convex Computer Corporation, Richardson, Texas

sybok@athena.mit.edu (The Rifleman) writes:
#Could someone please explain the difference between the various types of
#"Uzi" semi-auto's out there (current and previous manufacture)?  In the
#1992 Gun Digest, it shows both a "pistol" and "carbine" Uzi, but the
#carbine version has a long barrel and a stock.  I seem to remember some
#kind of pistol that was larger than what's currently sold as the Uzi
#pistol, with a short barrel.  (One of these may be the A Model or B Model
#Uzi.)

UZI SMG - The real thing. It was designed by Uziel Gal, around ~1951, I
          think. Select fire (A/R/S), from the open bolt. ~$2500.

UZI Semi-Auto Carbine Model A - The original semi-auto import (~1980).
          Fires from the closed bolt. Had a 16.1 inch barrel to classify as
          a rifle (since it came with a folding stock). ~$750.

UZI Semi-Auto Carbine Model B - The modified semi-auto due to BATF concerns
          about it being converted to select-fire. Otherwise, pretty much
          the same as the Model A. ~$700.

Mini-UZI - Similar to UZI SMG above, but a little smaller. Had about 40-50%
          parts interchangeability. Don't know if they were available to
          civilians.

Mini-UZI Semi-Auto Carbine - Similar to above, but a little smaller. Still
          qualifies as a rifle (16.1 barrel, folding stock). Had about
          40-50% parts interchangeability. Haven't seen many of these. ~$650.

Micro-Uzi SMG Pistol - About the same size as a MAC M10. Don't know if
          they were available to civilians.

Micro-Uzi Semi-Auto Pistol - Semi-auto version of Micro-Uzi. No stock.
          ~$500.

I think they all have interchangeable magazines, All come in 9mm, I am not
sure if they all come in 45 ACP. I know some do. The Model A also has a
.22LR kit too.
-- 
Mike Tighe, (214) 497-4206
tighe@convex.com
From: fcrary%ocf.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Frank Crary)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: SKS 30 Round Magazines...
Date: 31 Aug 92 22:02:02 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility

In article <9208301648.AA05285@emory.mathcs.emory.edu> syoung@pecanpi.UUCP (Stan Young) writes:
#In light of the recent Supreme Court decision on the Thompson/Center case,
#impossible becomes even more likely.  The Court decided that the standard
#of lenity had to be used in any BATF case that involved criminal penalties.
#While I'm sure they will fight it, the basic rule means that any ambiguities
#must be resolved in favor of the individual, not the agency.

I'm not sure the Court applied lenity to _all_ BATF cases, though they
certainly did to short barrel rifle conversions.

Also, the principle of lenity applies only when there is no criminal
intent.

							 Frank Crary
							 CU Boulder

(By the way, does anyone know how to get usenet acces from Boulder? My
new account doesn't seem to have direct access and remote logins to my
old Berkeley account are getting to be a pain...)