HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sahle@csgrad.cs.vt.edu (Eskinder Sahle)
Newsgroups: alt.desert-storm
Subject: Desert Storm vs. Vietnam
Date: 15 Apr 92 19:59:58 GMT
Organization: VPI&SU Computer Science Department, Blacksburg, VA

-----------------------------------------------------------------
The writer of this post is Ahmed Bouzid, and NOT Eskinder Sahle
-----------------------------------------------------------------


This is the first time I write to (and read from as well) this
group, so I don't know if the topic of contrasting the Gulf War and
Vietnam ever came up previously.  In any case, here is my opinion,
for whatever it's worth.

Much has been made about the "shameful" conduct of the American People
during and after the war of Vietnam, and I think that everyone will
agree with me that with the years a collective guilt has developed
in the conscience of America as a nation regarding how they treated
their veterans.  I will also put forward the proposition that much
use was made by the Bush administration and the Pentagon of this
Guilt--and Guilt with a big "G"--and that America, thirsty and eager as it
was to get rid of this guilt, pounced on the occasion, finding itself
in a state of perplexed inaction and confusion, where it had to
acquiece to the destruction of human life on a mind-boggling scale
so ast to avoid making "that shameful mistake" of blaming the troops.

What disheartens me most about what has happened is that America seems to have 
reached the unalterable conclusion that the treatment it gave its Vietnam 
veterans was shameful.  In my opinion, I believe that not ever a nation in the 
whole history of Humanity acted more honorably and showed itself to be ahead, 
way ahead, of the rest of humanity in seeing things for what they 
were--killing as killing, and not as "the inccurring of collateral human 
damage," as Bernard Shaw (who was pissing in his pants under a bed when he 
was caught in the cross-fire in Baghdad) put it while talking about civilian 
deaths that a bombing of some facility or other was bound to cause--as the
people of America acted when they held each and every soldier who came
back from Vietnam accountable. The American people of then were thinking:
they did not get confused, they were thinking in terms of
responsibility, and the artifices and contrivances of "the honor of the army" 
and "the pledge of allegiance," and "dying for your country," did not fool them.
They saw that murder was murder, and that a soldier was before anything
else a human being who needed to think for himself and act according
to his conscience.  How far ahead of everybody else you were.  How
wonderful a step humanity was making then--people who were starting
to realize that War was evil, hell, and not the glory it was sung 
throughout the ages.  And a world peopled by men who think like this 
is bound to be a world of peace, a world safe of all wars.
And so, what a sad step backward the Gulf War was, where that very
spark of hope that might have put you at the helm of a truly glorious
new world order was so carelessly put out by a guilt that should have
been pride in the first place.

Ahmed Bouzid.
From: dam@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (David Morning)
Newsgroups: alt.desert-storm
Subject: Re: Where is the new world order?
Date: 10 Apr 92 11:59:15 GMT
Organization: Glasgow University Computing Science Dept.

aiesecrs@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (AIESEC - Ohio State) writes:


>D.B Cooper lives!

Wasn't he the guy who parachuted out a plane after extorting a bundle of
money from a bank or something and was never seen again?

What does he have to do with bombing planes?

Dave
-- 
 ============================================================================
| Dave Morning                     | "Broon Hee Haw Maw"                     | 
|dam@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk             |                                         |
 ============================================================================
Newsgroups: alt.desert-storm,talk.politics.misc,misc.headlines
From: AIESEC - Ohio State <aiesecrs@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
Subject: Re: Bush Secretly Aided Saddam Until August 1990
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 08:42:38 GMT


In my previous post I stated something to the effect of Iraq, certainly having 
more power now thanks to George Herbert Walker Bush.  Let me correct myself, 
and say they have less military power thanks to George Herbert Walker Bush.

My apologies to the hard core debaters, and the supporters of Desert Storm.

Ryan C. Scharfy
Self-correcting student at The Ohio State University
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Thursday, 9 Apr 1992 13:01:59 EDT
From: <TWZ101@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.desert-storm
Subject: Re: What happened to the Iraqi Air Force?
 <1992Mar31.163136.709@desire.wright.edu>
 <1992Apr3.101923.15157@ousrvr.oulu.fi> <1992Apr5.062537.17063@anasaz>
 <1992Apr6.090435.6352@ousrvr.oulu.fi> <15845@bunny.GTE.COM>
 <1992Apr8.130759.27340@ousrvr.oulu.fi>

     On sending the Captain to Iran:  We all know what a model of justice and
 impartiality the Iranian religious court system is.  And if you think the
 Libyans won't get a fair trial in the U.S., excuse me, but isn't Noreiga doing
 quite well for himself, thank you?  He may even be acquitted!!!

                                        --T.Z,--
Newsgroups: alt.desert-storm
From: donald@sq.sq.com (Donald Teed)
Subject: Re: Stupid Question (Saudia Arabia's strength vs Iraq)
Organization: SoftQuad Inc.
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 92 13:48:38 GMT

TWZ101@psuvm.psu.edu writes:


>     Get your facts straight.  Saudi Arabia had some very good equipment in its
> Air Force, but it was very small compared to Iraq's Air Force.

>     IRAQ: 30 MiG-29              S. ARABIA: 75 F-15C
...
etc, etc.
...
>    TOTAL: 609 combat a/c         TOTAL: 255  combat a/c

Well, are we just going to gawk at these numbers or can you
point out a source.  It would be nice to see Jane's Defence numbers.
I'm not sure whether something like Time is reliable.  They like
making quick and funny graphs to make all the charts look shocking.
I really hope you didn't make them up - that is so low.
I'd hop off to the library right now except I'm not a student
and I won't have any hours free for another three days.

>     When looking at these things, you have to remember that Gwyn Dwyer is the
> same man who said that the only logical thing for mankind to do is to declare
> war obsolete, several years ago on his PBS series _War_.

Why, do you like the opposite of this declaration?  What kind of person
would?  Besides, what he said is already true on the level of full scale
war between the superpower nations.  Nuclear weapons was the focal point
of his argument in the War series.  We don't see nations who both have
atomic/nuclear capability having total war between themselves, and
the nuclear capability over time will surely grow - so I can see his point.
Why is this man, who is called apon by the Canadian media in print and
on the air, to provide a military analysis, so taken in the U.S. as
a dove?  This man was in the navy, and later taught in a military
school.  He is not a "peacenik".  He is an educated man who is calling
for some observance of the facts, and spends his efforts trying to
cut through the hype and whitewash common in the press and politics.

--Donald Teed
Newsgroups: alt.desert-storm
From: AIESEC - Ohio State <aiesecrs@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
Subject: Re: Where is the new world order?
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 07:39:09 GMT

ffalo.edu>
Organization: The Ohio State University
Cc:
Bcc:
In article <1992Apr10.053301.12162@ousrvr.oulu.fi> you write:
>In article <1992Apr8.162241.8560@acsu.buffalo.edu> opnsgreg@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.
edu (Gregory J. Schaffer) writes:
>>In article <1992Apr6.072522.1100@rhrk.uni-kl.de>, fritsch@fsinfo.cs.uni-sb.de
 (Lothar Fritsch) writes...
>>>I wonder where the new world order is that was announced by Bush as one of
>>>the aims of the gulf war.
>>> Looking at the situation, I discover the following points:
>>> ...
>>> - Lybia: UN tries to force Lybia to deliver two of their citizens.
>>>   Did the USA ever deliver one of their citizens to other countries?
>>Did a US citizen ever bomb an international flight?
>
>Well the CIA bombed an Air Cubana flight over Venezuela in the '70s.
>The guy who (apparently) did it was held by the Venezuelans until the
>CIA sprung him.  He later turned up working in El Salvador routing
>weapons to the Contras through US military channels while operating
>under another name.  He disappeared again after being identified.
>
>I don't know if he was a US citizen or a Cuban exile run by the CIA to
>whom the US had not gotten around to granting citizenship to yet.
>Anyway, it is the same thing, the US's intelligence agency's agent
>(officer?) is accused of bombing an international flight just as Libyan
>intelligence agency's agents are.  In both cases it is alleged to be a
>government action, the citizenship of the operative carrying out the
>mission is immaterial.
>

D.B Cooper lives!

R. Scharfy
Newsgroups: alt.desert-storm,talk.politics.misc,misc.headlines
From: rwyatt@niji.claremont.edu (Robert Wyatt)
Subject: The World Bully
Organization: Harvey Mudd College
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 02:09:43 GMT

I must first admit to not having read ANY articles on desert storm in  
this news group...

George Bush and the UN countries he so readily intimidates are  
nothing more then cowards and murderers.  No, I am not a flaming  
liberal - just someone with (I think) a decent head on his shoulders.  

How difficult is it to OPPRESS a THIRD WORLD COUNTRY ????!!!!!!

Sure, we had to liberate Kuwait...Isn't it funny that the Kuwaiti  
government embodies everything the US is "against" ?  No freedoms,  
oppression, etc...But, we have to rush to the rescue.  For what  
reason ?  It is simple !  Money !  Money !  Money !  The US  
government chose to look the other way when Chinese students were  
massacred.  We have done NOTHING to even MEDIATE the war in  
Yugoslavia.  Why ?  What do those countries (or factions) have to  
offer ?  Not much...  Kuwait, on the other hand, has oil.  And we all  
know - oil is money.  So instead of being the "self appointed  
policeman" of the world, the US has stooped to becoming the World  
Bully.  I just can't help but thinking about that mean upperclassman  
who takes the little kid's lunch money...

And now the UN blockade is causing millions of Iraqi civilians - who  
have no say in what their government does - to suffer and die.  No  
clean water, no electricity, no medicine, no food.  But, we have to  
make sure that Saddam doesn't have the bomb - so that the Balance of  
Power can remain in our favor.  The US deserves to have nuclear  
weapons, because we are responsible...  The Iraqi's are not...  This  
may be true, but who are we to determine who deserves what.  Yet, we  
continue to aid (although not as much any more) Israel with weapons  
and bombs so that they can kill Palestinians.

Let's face it - the US is a cowardly country, hell-bent on world  
domination.  Anyone that supports US military policy ought to take a  
very close look at what he/she is really supporting.  And if, after  
careful analysis, you still support the military, label yourself a  
cowardly murderer.  You are nothing more !
Xref: sparky alt.desert-storm:865 talk.politics.misc:17623
From: bks@alfa.berkeley.edu (Bradley K. Sherman)
Newsgroups: alt.desert-storm
Subject: Military and Raytheon Retracting Patriot Claims
Date: 12 Apr 1992 07:25:49 GMT
Organization: Why do they have to Lie, Inc.
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: alfa.berkeley.edu


Just watched a few hours of testimony on C-SPAN ( note to non-US'ers:
cable-TV that shows live broadcasts of US Congress and Senate, etc. )
about the Patriot performance.  It is telling that the military and
Raytheon are now backing off on warhead kill estimates (now below 70%
in Saudi and below 40% in Israel).

The most ironic part of the hearings though is the rebuttal to the
testimony of Dr. Postol of MIT.  During the PG war we were shown
clip after clip of Scuds being intercepted by Patriots --at least
that's what we were _told_ we were seeing.  Dr. Postol took all of
these network clips and analyzed them and found clear evidence that
what was being shown on the films were _misses_.

The rebuttal consists of demonstrating that we should not believe
the record of commercial video because of limitations of the technology
(limitations that Postol concedes).  This is too much.  That whole
war consisted of generals showing us videotape and explaining how
perfectly everything worked.  I guess those generals (and the public)
had better discount all that video evidence!

Apparently the consensus in Israel is that less than 3 scud warheads
were actually destroyed by patriots (in the Israeli theater).  It is
possible that the number is 0.

---------------
    --Brad Sherman (bks@alfa.berkeley.edu)

The first casualty when war comes is truth.
    --Hiram Johnson (Speech to the U.S. Senate, 1917)
Newsgroups: alt.desert-storm
From: cook@vcsesu.enet.dec.com (The Cookster!)
Subject: Re: The World Bully
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 14:08:55 GMT


In article <1992Apr15.030814.7876@muddcs.claremont.edu>, rwyatt@niji.claremont.edu (Robert Wyatt) writes...

>Peter-
>I can respect someone who doesn't agree with me.  But your comments  
>indicate obvious STUPIDITY !!!  

	Oh yes, instead of proving why I should care, you insult me
	instead. That's really productive. Answer my question. Why
	should I care? War is hell. The results of this war on
	civilians and the country itself PALES in comparison to other
	wars of this century.

> Spoonfed media bullshit and sugar-coated government  
>ideals. 

	I hate to slong mud, but it sounds to me like alot of people
	here are the media spoon fed. Big bad U.S. Shame on us for
	protecting our interests. 

> I cannot respect anyone with as little common sense as you.  
	
	I cannot respect anyone who insults people instead of
	debating the issue. If you want to get into a mud slinging
	contest, sorry, I will not bring myself to that level of 
	immaturity.
	 
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
 Peter R. Cook			Mystic Powers new EP - Life in the Fast Lane 
 Digital Equipment Corp.	now available. Inquire within.

 _   /|				"1984 has past, forget about Big Brother,
 \'o.O'   AcK!			 Welcome to the 90's where the government's
 =(___)=			 your mother!" - Scatterbrain
    U
 Flames not welcome. Serious inquires only. Opinions are mine, all mine!
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
Newsgroups: alt.desert-storm
From: dano@usl.edu (Dan Stephenson)
Subject: Re: The World Bully
Organization: Univ. of Southwestern Louisiana
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1992 09:09:03 GMT

rwyatt@niji.claremont.edu (Robert Wyatt) writes:

>In article <1992Apr15.163451.2248@nntpd.lkg.dec.com>  
>cook@vcsesu.enet.dec.com (The Cookster!) writes:

>> 	If you don't like it, you could always move to a netural  
>country.

>You're right Peter...  I could...  But, why should I have to ?   
>Perhaps I would like to see THIS country change for the better (as I  
>know a lot of us would).  History books tell us (for whatever that is  
>worth) that we were, at one time, an honorable nation.

Wow, this is such utter BS. 

There is nothing fundamentally wrong with the United States except for
people like you trying to convince people otherwise.  All you do is
"[whine, whine, bitch, and moan]" (Clarence Thomas ;)  ), and
hardly ever get specific, and when you do, you spout off something you
read in a newspaper editorial or the like and have NO idea what  you're
talking about.

Every time *I* get drepressed about high taxes, crime, etc., I always
remind myself I could live in Europe and get taxed to hell and back and
worry about terrorism.

-Dan
.

--
Daniel Anthony Stephenson, player of Praetorius, namer of The Solarium.
dano@srl01.cacs.usl.edu das9674@usl.edu
"I can be, what I want to, and all I need is to get my boogie
down"- Al Jarreau.
Newsgroups: alt.desert-storm,talk.politics.misc,misc.headlines
From: chf0@newshost.gte.com (Curtis Fennell)
Newsgroups: alt.desert-storm,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: What happened to the Iraqi Air Force?
Date: 7 Apr 92 12:25:28 GMT
Reply-To: chf0@gte.com
Followup-To: alt.desert-storm
Organization: GTE Laboratories, Waltham, MA

In article <1992Apr6.090435.6352@ousrvr.oulu.fi>, dfo@tko.vtt.fi (Foxvog Douglas) writes:
|> >In a war zone, if such a response is allowed by your Rules of Engagement
|> >following perceived hostile action, yeah, you got the right to kill them.
|> 
|> However this was not a war zone.  It was international waters during
|> peacetime.  The other end of the Persian Gulf was declared a war zone.
|> If the ship were to treat the area as such (legally or not) it should 
|> certainly attempt to warn any civilain traffic of its decision.

While it may be true that this was not "officially" designated a "war
zone", it is certainly true that hostile forces were shooting at each
other in this area, less than an hour ago.  And the Vincennes did try
to contact the airbus, with no success.

|> doug foxvog
|> dfo@tko.vtt.fi   
-- 
============================================================
Curt Fennell    [   "Get DOWN off that cross, honey!       ]
chf0@gte.com	[    Somebody needs the wood!"             ]
============================================================
Newsgroups: alt.desert-storm
From: rwyatt@niji.claremont.edu (Robert Wyatt)
Subject: Re: The World Bully
Organization: Harvey Mudd College
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 20:13:14 GMT

Well Ryan, it's easy to support senseless, inhumane actions when  
you're not being oppressed...

If Saddam develops nuclear technology, it is his right to have it.   
We developed it.  No one came in and took it from us.  Now we hold  
our nuclear might over other countries' heads to intimidate them.

Not being able to assasinate a head of state is the stupidest thing I  
have ever heard of !!!  So instead, we kill all of his people...   
Face it, the US is concerned with nothing more then tainting the  
entire planet with its warped sense of self-richeousness and greed.   
It's pretty pathetic that the only way we are able to earn other  
countries' respect is through intimidation or money...  Says a lot  
for our government.  Maybe things will change when idiots like Ronald  
Reagan and self-serving insecure (and therefore overcompensating)  
jerks like George Bush don't get elected !

Robert Wyatt
(Sorry Ryan if not signing my name bothered you so much...)
From: aiesecrs@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (AIESEC - Ohio State)
Newsgroups: alt.desert-storm
Subject: Re: The World Bully
Date: 14 Apr 92 20:57:22 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University

In article <1992Apr14.201314.25079@muddcs.claremont.edu> you write:
>Well Ryan, it's easy to support senseless, inhumane actions when
>you're not being oppressed...
>
>If Saddam develops nuclear technology, it is his right to have it.
>We developed it.  No one came in and took it from us.  Now we hold
>our nuclear might over other countries' heads to intimidate them.
>
>Not being able to assasinate a head of state is the stupidest thing I
>have ever heard of !!!  So instead, we kill all of his people...
>Face it, the US is concerned with nothing more then tainting the
>entire planet with its warped sense of self-richeousness and greed.
>It's pretty pathetic that the only way we are able to earn other
>countries' respect is through intimidation or money...  Says a lot
>for our government.  Maybe things will change when idiots like Ronald
>Reagan and self-serving insecure (and therefore overcompensating)
>jerks like George Bush don't get elected !
>
>Robert Wyatt
>(Sorry Ryan if not signing my name bothered you so much...)

Those who cry, whine loudest.

R. Scharfy
From: opnsgreg@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Gregory J. Schaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.desert-storm
Subject: Re: Where is the new world order?
Date: 10 Apr 92 21:50:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Apr10.053301.12162@ousrvr.oulu.fi>, dfo@tko.vtt.fi (Foxvog Douglas) writes...
>In article <1992Apr8.162241.8560@acsu.buffalo.edu> opnsgreg@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Gregory J. Schaffer) writes:

(unnecessary stuff deleted)

>>Did a US citizen ever bomb an international flight?  
> 
>Well the CIA bombed an Air Cubana flight over Venezuela in the '70s.
>The guy who (apparently) did it was held by the Venezuelans until the
>CIA sprung him.  He later turned up working in El Salvador routing
>weapons to the Contras through US military channels while operating
>under another name.  He disappeared again after being identified.  
> 
>I don't know if he was a US citizen or a Cuban exile run by the CIA to
>whom the US had not gotten around to granting citizenship to yet.
>Anyway, it is the same thing, the US's intelligence agency's agent
>(officer?) is accused of bombing an international flight just as Libyan
>intelligence agency's agents are.  In both cases it is alleged to be a
>government action, the citizenship of the operative carrying out the
>mission is immaterial.
> 
>>Greg Schaffer
> 
>doug foxvog
>dfo@tko.vtt.fi
>-- 


I was unaware of this, and I agree, if it is true as presented.  I certainly
don't support a double standard regarding this!


Greg Schaffer
From: opnsgreg@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Gregory J. Schaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.desert-storm
Subject: Re: Where is the new world order?
Date: 8 Apr 92 17:22:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Apr6.072522.1100@rhrk.uni-kl.de>, fritsch@fsinfo.cs.uni-sb.de (Lothar Fritsch) writes...
>I wonder where the new world order is that was announced by Bush as one of
>the aims of the gulf war.
> Looking at the situation, I discover the following points:
> 
> - Kuwait: no democracy at all, same people have the power & the money
>   who had it before the whole mess
Only goal was to return Kuwait to the Kuwaitis.  How they run the
show is their own business.
> - Kurds: one step closer to exodus. But anyway, did the world notice the
>   chemical attack against Kurds in Iraq some years ago?
Exodus?
> - Saudi Arabia: no democracy
Did you ever consider that the Saudi's LIKE a monarchy?  We have no right to
impose our style of govermnent on any other country simply because we feel
that democracy is the best way to go.
> - Persian Gulf: one of the biggest ecological catastrophes man ever made
Of course, that was George Bush's fault...
> - Turkey: as they prooved as a reliable NATO member they may violate human
>   rights and bomb curds as they like
What does the Turkish/Kurd dispute have to do with Turkey's NATO status?
> - Israel: just as violent against arabian people as ever
Oh, yeah, sure...that's why the Israeli's didn't retaliate at all
to countless Scud attacks.  Israel is scared, and the Gulf War shows they
have a right to be...
> - Lybia: UN tries to force Lybia to deliver two of their citizens.
>   Did the USA ever deliver one of their citizens to other countries?
Did a US citizen ever bomb an international flight?  
>and, just in addition, american and british politicians just talk around a
>new glorious military action in the gulf region, right in election time.
> That just reminds me of a conspiration theory between the CIA and Saddam
>I read or seen somewhere.
Bombing selected targets to destroy weapons of mass destruction doesn't
make a glorious military action.  There is nothing glorious in destruction.
Anyone in the military will tell you that...
>So what is your opinion? Where is the new world order for the gulf region?
> 
Things take time.  It has taken Germany 40+ years to recover from it's 
Third Reich/Cold War era, but it's been worth the wait.
> 
>Lothar
> 
>--
>Lothar Fritsch					Der gruene Punkt  ->  *
>Student der Universitaet des Saarlandes,        Diese Mail kann wiederver-
>Fachbereich Informatik				wendet werden. Bis dahin
>e-mail: fritsch@fsinfo.cs.uni-sb.de 		bitte nach /dev/null kopieren.

Greg Schaffer
Newsgroups: alt.desert-storm,talk.politics.misc,misc.headlines