HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: Re: More External-Combustion Info
Date: 20 Nov 1992 18:44:39 GMT
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
Distribution: world
Reply-To: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <1992Nov20.091536.16907@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM>, kwyatt@ccscola.Columbia.NCR.COM (Kershner Wyatt) writes:
>Watching the banter back and forth on the external combustion vehicles and
>water consumption in closed vs. open system--
>
>What's the feasibility of using gray water, especially in an open system?

Ever hear of something called boiler scale?  Well, any open system's got a
problem with it.  Use water with more contaminants, get more of a problem.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CARL@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Newsgroups: sci.energy
From: gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman)
Subject: Re: Energy Demand
Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman)
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 07:49:16 GMT

In article <1992Nov19.100122.14956@bernina.ethz.ch> eric14@bernina.ethz.ch (Eric Baltischwiler) writes:
>
>I bring this up because the responces to this post have so strongly
>supported the argument that when we choose where to live, must of us
>implicitly assume that we will have lots AirConditioning and/or
>Heating.  IE We do not factor in the cost of it.  Most people don't
>realise the extent of it.  Pheonix is full of people wearing 3 piece
>suits in the summer.  If you think about this, it is very strange
>behavior.  It must use a lot of energy.

It's strange, but perhaps not so strange as people who deliberately
restrict the blood flow to their brains by tightly knotting a 
non-functional strip of cloth around their necks every day. It's
been my observation that you can take a reasonably intelligent,
productive worker, promote him to management, cut off the blood to 
his brain, and pretty soon he's as stupid as the other suits.

Gary

Xref: sparky sci.energy:5657 sci.environment:12905 talk.environment:4700
From: mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark Wilson)
Newsgroups: sci.energy,sci.environment,talk.environment
Subject: Re: Request: info on desalination and solar energy
Date: 20 Nov 92 20:56:12 GMT
Organization: NCR Engineering and Manufacturing Atlanta -- Atlanta, GA

In <1992Nov18.153706.7862@nmt.edu> houle@nmt.edu (Paul Houle) writes:

|>	The low-tech designs that I've seen for solar water desalination
|>mostly use a tent-like structure made out of polyethylene sheet (which is a
|>really good material if you want to play with solar thermal technology on the
|>cheap.  My father built a solar "greenhouse" addition to the house one year
|>using wood and poly sheet that he had laying around,  and with the addition
|>of a fan,  it could keep most of the house at 80 centigrade during the day.)

Are you sure about that temperature.  At 80 degrees C, you would get heat stroke
in just a couple of hours.  Also what was the outside temperature?

-- 
Mob rule doesn't become any prettier, just because the mob start to call itself
a government.
It ain't charity if you are using someone else's money.
Mark.Wilson@AtlantaGA.NCR.com
From: Gosbell@FEDCMAC.EDC.RMIT.EDU.AU (Kerryn Gosbell)
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: Energy efficiency in higher education
Date: 23 Nov 92 23:48:59 GMT
Followup-To: sci.energy
Organization: RMIT
NNTP-Posting-Host: kerryn.edc.rmit.oz.au

RMIT university in Melbourne is conducting research into the incorporation
of energy issues into tertiary education curriculum and energy use on
campus.

As the projects Research Assistant I am seeking to compile information
regarding these two areas of energy in tertiary institutions across the
world.

Topics covered in course curriculum could include for example:
	% Energy efficiency and conservation
	% Environmental and social impacts of energy
	% Energy economics / cost
	% Energy management
	% Renewable and alternative energy
	% Energy use
	% Design for energy efficiency

I am specifically seeking to identify examples of curriculum materials and
activities such as research projects, guest speakers, field visits and
information sources used, but am also interested in finding out what
contexts are set for students. ie. Why is energy conservation worth
pursuing?

In addition, I am seeking information regarding any work that has been
undertaken which looks at the actual energy consumption of higher education
institutions and at ways of reducing this consumption.

If anyone has information or relevant contacts in either of these two areas
I would appreciate hearing from them either through my E-mail address or by
sending material to me via the postal address below.

Thanks!

Kerryn Gosbell
Department of Planning, Policy & Landscape
RMIT
GPO Box 2476V
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia  3001
Newsgroups: sci.energy
From: moroney@ramblr.enet.dec.com
Subject: Re: Any info. on hydrogen power for cars??
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 20:50:29 GMT

In article <1992Nov17.131916.12009@bsu-ucs>, 00bndaniels@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu writes...
>I would like to know if any US car company will make or research
>for a car that can run on hydrogen.  I only know of VW and BMW
>that are doing research on makinga car that can run on hydrogen
>I believe that hydrogen would be a great fuel for cars, and power 
>plants because the only by-product when it is burned is water.
>Any information on this topic is greatly appreciated.

Before hydrogen cars can ever be more than a "look at us, see how good
enviromentalists we are" project/publicity stunt, one major problem has
to be solved.  How do you generate all that hydrogen in the first place
without generating pollution, possibly more than running the car on gasoline
or some other alternate fuel in the first place?

Also, you get NOx pollution when hydrogen is burned in an internal combustion
motor, the only way to make it so the "only by-product is water" is to use
it in a fuel cell (which is sensible anyway).

-Mike
Newsgroups: sci.energy
From: guy@slustl.slu.edu (Guy Smith)
Subject: Photovoltaic enhancement
Organization: Saint Louis University  Saint Louis, MO
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 18:56:48 GMT

A student raised the question of enhancing the power output
of photovoltaics by using mirrors to focus sunlight on a
panel, increasing its effective area. This could certainly
reduce the effective cost of photovoltaics but what are
the practical aspects of this approach. How much solar
flux can a panel handle? would the increased heating degrade
the panels or reduce efficiency? Other?
From: meier@Software.Mitel.COM (Rolf Meier)
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: Re: Energy Demand
Date: 17 Nov 92 14:14:59 GMT
Organization: Mitel. Kanata (Ontario). Canada.

In article <28211@castle.ed.ac.uk> cir@festival.ed.ac.uk (C Revie) writes:

>Don't use air conditioning, open the window!

Pardon?

_____________________________________________________________________________
Rolf Meier						Mitel Corporation

Newsgroups: sci.energy
From: ghg@en.ecn.purdue.edu (George Goble)
Subject: Re: opening of the first self-sufficient solar house, Press Release
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 21:51:17 GMT

In article <2518@ispi.COM> jbayer@ispi.COM (Jonathan Bayer) writes:
>pngai@adobe.com (Phil Ngai) writes:
>
>>In article <1992Nov16.171017.28081@ke4zv.uucp> gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman) writes:
>>>Remember Apollo 13, the failure modes for these things includes
>>>BOOM! Also don't forget the electrolyzer, tankage, and pumps.
>
>>I thought the Apollo 13 failure was due to overheating a dewar,
>>something not proposed for this house project.
>
>
>The Appollo 13 failure was due to an oxygen tank being dropped during
>assembly into the service module.  The drop was about three inches, and
>the tank was throughly test after it was dropped.  However, a small tube
>apparently had been dislodged, and it wasn't detected during the
>testing.  It was only functional in weightlessness.  The tube was some
>sort of relief tube.  When they turned on the internal mixers in flight
>(the mixers kept the O2 from clumping in one area) there was an
>explosion.  These facts were determined after the flight and after
>extensive and exhaustive analysis and testing.  When they released the
>service module they were able to see where the explosion had occurred.
>
>JB
>-- 
>Jonathan Bayer		Intelligent Software Products, Inc.
>(908) 248-1853		37 Winthrop Rd. 
>jbayer@ispi.COM		Edison, NJ   08817

Wasn't it somthing to do with a Teflon heater in the tank not shutting
off, and eventually, the Teflon ignited inside the tank, rapidly
building pressure leading to the explosion? Dropping the tank may
have contributed to the heater problem?
--ghg

Newsgroups: sci.energy,sci.environment
From: sherwood@space.ualberta.ca (Sherwood Botsford)
Subject: Re: opening of the first self-sufficient solar house, Press Release
Organization: University Of Alberta, Edmonton Canada
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 22:04:32 GMT

Daniel Pedersen (dpeders1@cc.swarthmore.edu) wrote:
: I have a question about the hydrogen storage method.  I haven't come across
: this system of storing energy before, and I wonder about the safety of this
: system.  If I remember correctly, hydrogen is an extremely flammable
: substance, and not something that I would want to live on top of.
: 
: So.  What is the danger involved of sitting on top of 15,000 liters of
: hydrogen under pressure, as opposed to, for example, an equivalent tank of
: cooking gas or the "regular" 2 or 3 m^3 (by my vague estimation) tanks that
: sit by the house?
: 

Given the choice, I'd rather work with pressurized hydrogen than other flamable
gasses.  H2 is so light, that it disperses upwards.  Unlike propane and 
gasoline whose fumes collect on the ground.  

The usual cooking gas cylinder you see by houses is propane.  The ~5' x 16" 
cylinders hold 100 lbs of propane.

Most of the problems with propane deal with the plumbing, not the tanks. 

Right now I'm considering switching from Natural Gas to propane for my house.
Propane is three times the price per btu, but I wouldn't have that 12 buck
per month service charge.  (I average less than 1000 cuft/month) 
--
=> Sherwood Botsford                   sherwood@space.ualberta.ca <= 
=> University of Alberta         Lab Manager, Space Physics Group <=         
=> tel:403 492-3713                             fax: 403 492-4256 <=         
Newsgroups: sci.energy
From: eric14@bernina.ethz.ch (Eric Baltischwiler)
Subject: Re: Energy Demand
Organization: Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH), Zurich, CH
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 10:01:22 GMT

>> Don't air condition, open the window...

This brings up a bigger issue.  I'm all in favor of your advice and
tend to follow it.  However, this leads to repeated social problems in
places like Los Angelos.  I was reading an articule the other day (I
forget where) that asserted that Air Conditioning is directly
responsible for population shifts in the USA today.  I've lived in
Florida and California and one can certainly adjust to the climate,
but I have to admit that Pheonix AZ would be a ghost town without Air
Conditioning.  To bring Scots and Swissmen into the conversation, just
talk about heating.

I bring this up because the responces to this post have so strongly
supported the argument that when we choose where to live, must of us
implicitly assume that we will have lots AirConditioning and/or
Heating.  IE We do not factor in the cost of it.  Most people don't
realise the extent of it.  Pheonix is full of people wearing 3 piece
suits in the summer.  If you think about this, it is very strange
behavior.  It must use a lot of energy.


So the question is:	

How much energy is our refusal to adapt to our local climates costing us?

Can we change this?  Should we try?

-------

PS I'm currently in a centrally heated office in Zurich which is so
   overheated that the windows are open.  It is probably about 5 deg C
   outside today!
From: yodaiken@chelm.cs.umass.edu (victor yodaiken)
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: Re: Notch another one up for the Greennazis
Date: 17 Nov 92 14:05:44 GMT
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst

In article <1992Nov16.165144.11105@gn.ecn.purdue.edu> dyrda@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Richard Dyrda) writes:
>>In article <56263@dime.cs.umass.edu> yodaiken@chelm.cs.umass.edu (victor yodaiken) writes:
>>The poor French and Japanese governments, bullied by that great big
>>Greenpeace with all its money and publicity. And all the French government
>>has to protect itself is an army and teams of terrorists to put mere
>>explosive bombs in greenpeace boats. What's a bomb or two, or a destroyer
>>or two compared with the awful power of Greenpeace's "publicity" machine.
>>Why won't Greepeace pick on someone it's own size, maybe the Salvation 
>>Army or the Girl Scouts, instead of this shameless thuggery towards the
>>helpless French and Japanese governments?
>
> By using the above logic why then didn't the Japanese or French escorts 
>just put a 135mm shell into the Greenpeace ship instead of boarding it and
>forcing it to veer away? Greenpeace uses countries non-violent orders to
>their extreme and press these escorts to the limit. Maybe one day they'll
>learn that these aren't unarmed fishing vessels.



The surviving relatives of the poor fellow that the French murdered in
Australia might disagree with your assessment of the French government.

In any event, it's rather humorous to see
all these tears for the victimization of the governments
of two of the worlds most powerful nations when confronted with unarmed
protesters.  Many anti-environmentalists seem to live in an inverse reality
where General Electric, the government of France, and the US government are
weak powerless victims of the mighty citizen lobbying organizations.

 

> Who knows maybe the Japanese were getting even for all the ramming Greenpeace
>has done to their merchant fishing fleet. Nobody said the Japanese didn't
>like revenge!
It is the Sea Shepherds who ram Japanese trawling
ships, and Sea Shepherds split from Greenpeace on the issue of whether
such "enforcement" tactics were a good idea. 


-- 


yodaiken@chelm.cs.umass.edu

Newsgroups: sci.energy
From: pngai@adobe.com (Phil Ngai)
Subject: Re: Electric car question.
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 00:51:04 GMT

In article <1992Nov22.171026.26464@michael.apple.com> ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith) writes:
>How large would a properly packaged 10 kW SNAP generator be?

As I understand these things, SNAP generators can not be turned off.
Kind of inconvenient to park in your garage...

-- 
Will Intel be the only X86 chip maker without a 586?
Newsgroups: sci.energy
From: dpeders1@cc.swarthmore.edu (Daniel Pedersen)
Subject: Re: A Reply to Richard Stead Nuclear and Solar Energy
Reply-To: dpeders1@cc.swarthmore.edu (Daniel Pedersen)
Organization: Swarthmore College
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 03:05:29 GMT

Another thing to keep in mind is the high toxicity of nuclear piles in the
event that something goes wrong.  See what happened in Chernobyl and what
almost happened at 3 Mile Island, just to name two instances.  The more
nuclear plants we have, the greater the chance that something can go wrong.
The greatest problem with nuclear power is that when something does go
wrong, the consequences are very serious.

-->Daniel Pedersen  -  Keren's Daddy		(215)543-8961
	dpeders1@cc.swarthmore.edu	pedersen@engin.swarthmore.edu
======================================================================
Highway sign on I-10, AZ: "Federal Prison - Do Not Pick Up Hitch-Hikers"
	50 yards later: "Campground	Next Right"
"Why do you kill people?"   -   "I am a terminator."  [Terminator 2]

Newsgroups: sci.energy,sci.environment
From: gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman)
Subject: Re: opening of the first self-sufficient solar house, Press Release
Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman)
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 17:10:17 GMT

In article <1992Nov13.203038.28857@michael.apple.com> ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith) writes:
>>]When needed in
>>]winter, the  fuel cell  (alkaline fuel  cell, 0.5 kW) can generate
>>]electricity  directly   (reverse  process  to  electrolysis).  The
>
>OK, a 500 W generator.  Is this the reason for the batteries and
>inverter?  So that peaks above 500 W can be met with a constant
>supply source of 500 W ?  I would guess that this is the most
>reasonable approach...  You may need 2 kW to start up a motor or
>run a major appliance for a few minutes, but don't want to spend
>the bucks for a 2-3 kW fuel cell...  Is that it?

It's *serious* bucks, about $50,000, for a fuel cell of that size
today, and the risk of early failure through poisoning is high.
Remember Apollo 13, the failure modes for these things includes
BOOM! Also don't forget the electrolyzer, tankage, and pumps.

>>]The hydrogen tank next to the house has a volume
>>]of 15  m3, the  oxygen tank  holds 7.5 m3. The tank pressure is 30
>>]bar.
>
>15 m3 for 1500 kWh is 100 kWh/m3.  Not Bad!  Hmmm ... to speculate
>a little ...
>
>IF an electric car needed 20 kWh/day for a typical driving regimin,
>and if you needed to store that energy for a similar seasonal swing,
>and if the cost of the equipment could be made 'reasonable', one could
>envision an added tank of about 30 m3 for 'automotive' use.  Now that
>is a tank of about 3.3 m on a side ... (I know, you don't make square
>presure tanks ... but the 'on a side' is just to give a visual sense
>of things... call it 10 ft on a side...)  Physical size is reasonable.

Reasonable? For a car? That's a greater volume than most cars have *total*.
That's the number one problem for fuel cells after cost, tankage size.

>Removing the assumption that cost could be made reasonable: 
>So what does it cost for a tank of 30 m3 that takes 30 bar?  
>(about 30 atmospheres or about 440 psi).
>
>My suspicion is that the cost of such a tank is very expensive and 
>that it demonstrates the reason why seasonal solar storage is a bitch.
>Working iron to make tanks isn't going to come down in price any time
>soon...

I'd guess mass production cost would be well under $1,000 each. This
isn't high technology. But if made from steel, it would weigh about
500 kg. That's not conducive to good mileage.

>Extra credit question:  Do the economics of the tankage change much
>if you go to a metal hydride system instead?  And what about those
>pumping losses for all that presurized H2? ...

Yeah, costs go up, but tankage size and mass go down for hydride 
storage. That doesn't help on the oxygen side though. Pumping energy
is a consideration on the generation side, from the electrolyzer
to the tank.

Gary
Newsgroups: sci.energy
From: abrown@hpcvcec.cv.hp.com (Allen Brown)
Subject: Re: Greenpeace and nuclear power
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 03:32:43 GMT

moroney@ramblr.enet.dec.com writes:
> Bernard Everett Hoefer writes...
>>	It seems to me that Greenpeace would like to see the
>> countries of the world drop their nuclear power programs.  Why is
>> this?  What reasons to they have to want to ban nuclear power?
A big part of it is the unsolved problem of how to dispose of
radioactive waste.

> A related question is, given there is now lots of that evil plutonium in
> the world, in the form of bombs and "spent" fuel rods, if Greenpeace got
> their way, what would they do with it all?
I think their first priority is to stop the production of it: ``First we
have to stop producing this crap.  Then we will have to figure out
what to do with what we already have.''

>  I know they'd shut down every
> nuke in the world so no more gets created but what of the stuff that
> already exists?  Can't fission it, else that would mean running the
> nukes (or setting off the bombs...)
> -Mike
That is the point.
--
  Allen C. Brown  abrown@cv.hp.com or hplabs!hpcvca!abrown or "Hey you!"
      Not representing my employer.
    Q: What has 10 heads and no brains?  A: a committee.
Newsgroups: sci.energy
From: "nigel allen" <nigel.allen@canrem.com>
Subject:  Public Citizen Rates States on Energy Use
Reply-To: "nigel allen" <nigel.allen@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: sci
Date: 19 Nov 92 20:14:05 EST


Here is a press release from Public Citizen.

 Public Citizen Rates States on Energy Use
 To: National Desk, Environment and Energy writers
 Contact: Jonathan Becker, 202-546-4996, or Andrew Carroll,
          202-833-3000, both of Public Citizen

   WASHINGTON, Nov. 19 -- All but three states rely on 
"dirty, dangerous and depletable" energy resources to meet a
majority of their energy needs, according to a report released by
Public Citizen's Critical Mass Energy Project, while none of the 50
states has even approached its potential in developing alternatives
to coal, nuclear and oil-generated power.
   The report, Energy Audit: A State-by-State Profile of Energy
Consumption and Conservation highlights the need for greater
funding of energy policies at the state level and describes some
policy tools states can employ to increase energy efficiency and
reliance on clean, safe and renewable energy resources.
   "Even with a new federal energy bill, much of the responsibility
for energy choices falls to the states," said Jonathan Becker,
energy-policy analyst for Public Citizen, "and it's clear that some
states are making much wiser decisions than others."
   Energy Audit contains Public Citizen's analysis of four key
idicators of energy use.  The report describes the experiences of
a number of states that have produced thorough and innovative
approaches to meeting their energy needs.
   "Federal energy policy is still controlled by the fossil-fuel
and nuclear power lobbies," continued Becker.  "It has been left up
to the states to implement a fair, safe and sensible energy plan."
Governors of all 50 states have been sent copies of Energy Audit:
A State-by-State Profile of Energy Consumption and Conservation.
   Copies of the 45-page Energy Audit are available from Public
Citizen at a cost of $40.  Discounts are available to non-profit
organizations and schools.  Members of the press may receive the
study free of charge on request.
   Public Citizen is a non-profit research and advocacy
organization founded in 1971 by Ralph Nader.  Public Citizen has
over 130,000 members nationwide.  The Critical Mass Energy Project
is its energy-policy arm.
 -30-
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
Newsgroups: sci.energy