HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: w2lee@argo.acs.oakland.edu (Walter Lee)
Subject: Re: What is essence of SUCCESS
Reply-To: w2lee@argo.acs.oakland.edu
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, MI
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 04:50:28 GMT

In article <EfEDuOC00WBNM2ZpMM@andrew.cmu.edu>, zh00+@andrew.cmu.edu (Zhengguo Hu) writes:
>
>  I was recently interviewed by a consulting company. The interviewer
>ask me the question:
>  "How would you describe the essence of success?"
>
>  This question surprised me. What are your answers?
>
>Ed

"essence" is the French word for gasoline.
As for success, I don't know.  I've never tasted the stuff.
How do the personnel types come up with these?

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Walter Lee                                          w2lee@argo.acs.oakland.edu

A cow eats without a knife.
From: tmis1692@altair.selu.edu
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Are you familiar with "Quick&EZ" SF-171 
Date: 21 Dec 92 09:50:16 -0600
Distribution: world
Organization: Southeastern Louisiana University

For those of you who are familiar with the SF-171 form preparation program
"Quick & Easy" by Datatech, I would like to hear your comments.  Also, if you
use the "Powerwords" program in conjuction with it I would like to hear your
comments as well.  I am considering getting this program and would like some
reviews.

Thanks,

Kevin Calmes - TMIS1692@selu.edu
From: mike@isgtec.com (Mike Sellers)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Re: working conditions
Date: 31 Dec 92 15:35:23 GMT
Distribution: misc
Organization: ISG Technologies Inc., Mississauga Ontario

ara@zurich.ai.mit.edu (Allan Adler) writes:
> It seems to me that when one writes a resume, it is best to have a particular
> job in mind or a particular type of job and to tailor the resume to the
> goal of getting that job. A job, from this point of view, is normally
> conceived of as the work that one will be doing and perhaps what
> one expects to be paid for doing it.

The key is here is that you get to define what you're looking for.  If this
is work and a paycheck, so be it. OTOH, if you include that you want to
work as part of a small team in an open atmosphere of innovation and 
cooperation, that becomes part of the job you seek.  Employers that cannot
provide this will generally not pursue you, and it gives you an excellent
opportunity to discuss such issues during an interview.  

> From my point of view, it is more pertinent to consider what the working
> conditions of a job are. I don't see why it should not be possible to write
> a resume that is oriented to the working conditions one would like to
> have rather than to the work one would like to do.

What do you mean by "working conditions?"  It's often not possible to dictate
office size, parking space, etc. (unless you have _extremely_ good 
qualifications and are applying for a job like CEO), but it is sometimes 
possible to negotiate having a computer and modem at home, how much vacation
time you get, flexible hours, specific duties, etc.  In the long run, these
things are much more important than things like office size.  

> In order for this approach to succeed, it would be necessary for employers
> to be willing to discuss working conditions rather than dictating
> them on a take-it-or-leave-it basis. Apart from salary, it seems that
> this simply is not done.

It is done, in my experience.  You have to satisfy two conditions for it to
work, though:  You have to have something which the company desires (your
skills) and which it cannot get readily elsewhere, and you must have the 
confidence to discuss such issues before any papers are signed.  Implicit
in these two conditions are that you must find a potential employer who
will even begin discussing such things with you (some just won't), and you
must be willing to walk away if things don't work out as you'd like.  

> May I conclude that the current standards for writing resumes reflect the
> fact that the concept of negotiation for improved working conditions is
> essentially dead?

No -- unless I've totally misunderstood what you mean by working conditions.

--
              Mike Sellers      User Interface Team Leader
           mike@isgtec.com      ISG Technologies, Toronto, Canada
              "Actum ne agas" -- Do not do what has been done.
                         Furare tantum ab Optimis
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: kannan@ardor.enet.dec.com (Nari Kannan)
Subject: Re: Inappropriate responses to job posting
Reply-To: kannan@ardor.enet.dec.com (Nari Kannan)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 19:28:28 GMT

Is it just me or others also irritated by this constant stream of
"Don't  waste my time. It's more precious than yours"
postings.  Have some compassion for people hit by hard
times and looking for a job for a long time.  Being worried
about your livelihood and constant anxiety about whether
you are going to earn anything in your life (especially for fresh
graduates)  again is nothing compared to a delete command
you can type in your mail system. So get a perspective on this
and stop playing God.  When you are desperate,  you may try
something "just in case".

The way I see it, there is a temporary restructuring
of the computer industry as a whole.  Computers are not
going to go away any time soon. If anything, it will be used
more and more for all kinds of things.  This temporary glut
will force a lot of youngsters to turn away from a computer
science education even as we speak.  Four years from now
you may not have the same  choice of candidates that everyone
seems to be complaining about.

So get a perspective on this and lay off poor candidates
desperately looking for a job. 

Nari
From: klee@wsl.dec.com (Ken Lee)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Re: Inappropriate responses to job posting
Date: 29 Dec 1992 23:37:46 GMT
Organization: DEC Western Software Laboratory
Distribution: world
Reply-To: klee@wsl.dec.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: alhambra.pa.dec.com

The problem is that many people, usually college students, use automated
reply programs to send their resume to everyone posting to
misc.jobs.offered.  In the past, people have complained about getting CS
student resumes in response to job postings for nurses or secretaries.
Obviously, the candidate spent 0 time reading the job offer before
responding.

Fortunately, the problem seems to subside for a while after a flame or 2.

Job posters may want to try adding very specific wording to the top of their
postings to ward off semi-literate responders.  Things like:  "no entry-level
positions are available" seem to work a little.

Good luck.

-- 
Ken Lee
DEC Western Software Laboratory, Palo Alto, Calif.
Internet: klee@wsl.dec.com
uucp: uunet!decwrl!klee
From: ara@zurich.ai.mit.edu (Allan Adler)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Re: >>>> What is essence of SUCCESS
Date: 30 Dec 92 16:11:52 GMT
Organization: M.I.T. Artificial Intelligence Lab.

In article <ssimmons.725722026@convex.convex.com> ssimmons@convex.com (Steve Simmons) writes:

   The question is trying to establish your values and to see if they match 
   with the company's values.  It is a very good question and you would see 
   so if you have ever worked in a situation where everyone has different 
   values/goals.   

              [hic pauca desunt]

	   "Being a key contributor on a team of many other talented and 
	    enthusiastic people.  All-stars are fine but it is more important
	    on what the team develops as a whole."
                   [hic pauca desunt]

	   "Within 5 years, I want to produce $10 million in revenue and be 
	    your top salesmen. Making money is important to me because I like
	    having a lot of toys to play with."

               [hic pauca desunt]

	   "It is important to build a team from a group of individual 
            engineers that develop innovative products on time."

                   [hic pauca desunt]
	   "The ability to help other people resolve their problems so 
	    that it is a real positive work atmosphere."

   This may sound corny/canned but it is important for newly hired people to 
   have a similar mindset as the rest of the organization.   
            [hic pauca desunt]


Steve Simmons feels that the meaningless question is a good question and
suggests the "right" answers for certain jobs. I submit that the meaningless
question is meaningless and that the existence of conventional answers
that the interviewer expects to hear is incompatible with the answers conveying
any useful information. Very simply, when a person says what they
have to say, what they say conveys no information. On the other hand,
if a person does not give the "right" answer, all that indicates is
that no one has told them yet what the "right" answer is. Either way,
no information is communicated about their mind set. 

I suppose that if you pay the interviewer enoughto ask it, he/she will believe 
that this is a good question that serves a useful purpose. I'm sure that many
totalitarian regimes that routinely ask for ritualized displays of
loyalty would agree with this practice.

Personally, I don't see how these people can live with themselves.

Allan Adler
ara@altdorf.ai.mit.edu
From: dgeary@sierra.com (David Geary)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Re: Discrimination (Was: Resume or just cover letter?)
Date: 21 Dec 92 16:13:46 GMT
Organization: Sierra Geophysics,  Kirkland WA

In article <1992Dec16.110429.21265@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com> johnson@sleipnir.mnesouth.corp.mot.com writes:
>In article <1992Dec14.180129.24047@sierra.com>, dgeary@sierra.com (David Geary) writes:
>=)In article <1992Dec2.083451.2298@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com> johnson@sleipnir.mnesouth.corp.mot.com writes:
>=)>In article <1992Dec1.182700.21843@PA.dec.com>, klee@wsl.dec.com (Ken Lee) writes:
>=)>=)Definately do not send photos of yourself (except for modeling or
>=)>=)acting jobs).  Photos only encourage stereotyping and racial
>=)>=)discrimination, so many employers automatically pitch all resumes with
>=)>=)photos attached.
>=)>=)
>=)>Actually, I have seen cases where minority status would be an advantage
>=)>in job seeking.  My wife is Hispanic, and takes care to point it out on
>=)>employment applications for this reason.  This probably works best when
>=)
>=)  Actually, discrimination is not defined in terms of minorities.  Anyone
>=)can be discriminated against, whether they are black, white, belong to a
>=)minority, majority or whatever.  When I graduated as a mechanical engineer
>=)in 1984, we had 2 blacks and a handful of women, along with hundreds of
>=)white males.  The blacks and women were being innundated with *job offers*,
>=)while most of us white males were just trying to get our first *plant trip*.
>=)
>I wasn't trying to make a moral judgement here.  I'm also a white male, and
>while I don't think I've suffered from reverse discrimination, I've seen it
>in action.  All I was saying is that the situation may favor certain people

  You're missing my point.  Discrimination against a white male is not
*reverse* discrimination; it is discrimination, period.  

>over others, and assuming your goal is to get the job, it is reasonable to
>take advantage of whatever edge you can get.  There's plenty of unfairness
>to be spread around--if you were offered the job of your dreams, which you
>were eminently qualified for and dedicated to, but you were chosen over
>others because your dad knew the president of the company, would you turn
>it down in the interest of fairness to the other applicants?
>-- 

  I understand what you were trying to say.  I'm just tired of the prevalent
attitude that it is only possible to discriminate against a minority.  Labeling
discrimination against a white male as reverse discrimination defines
discrimination as something that can only happen to a non-white male.
-- 
David Geary           	|   Seattle - America's most attractive city ... 
Sierra Geophysics	|	
dgeary@sierra.com	|   to the jetstream ;-(
From: bobert@informix.com (Robert Murphy)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Re: transform a resume
Date: 31 Dec 92 20:29:53 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.

ara@zurich.ai.mit.edu (Allan Adler) writes:

>I did try tutoring in the past and it does satisfy the condition of
>being over in a month, since students apparently have no interest in
>tutoring except during exams. However, I never earned more than a few
>hundred dollars per annum from tutoring and it is therefore not a solution.
>I might add that since I typically get only one student for tutoring
>at one time, I usually wind up traveling an hour to get to the appointment,
>which more than half the time the student doesn't show up for, and an
>hour traveling home, which considerably dilutes both my enjoyment of the
>activity and my net hourly wage.

Your experience tutoring is significantly different from mine.  I used
to live about a half-mile from the campus of TCU, in Fort Worth, and
did tutoring for students from both TCU, another local college, and (once) a
local high school.  I tutored only on-campus or at my apartment, with one
exception (again, the high school student, and I demanded higher pay for
the travel costs).  I had a B.S. in math and chem from TCU, and was
working on a Ph.D. in chem there.  I advertised by getting my name on
the department lists for chemistry, math, and physics at both TCU and
the other college, and by tacking up flyers around campus.

The upshot?  I had more tutoring than I could handle.  I could have made
a fairly nice living at it if I hadn't had to spend so much time working
on the Ph.D.  It got to the point where I became pretty selective: if
someone hadn't started weekly sessions with me by mid-semester, I wouldn't
take them.  (My first semester doing it, I realized how futile it was to
try to tutor people during finals week - they get REALLY MAD when you
can't teach them a semester's information in a one-hour cram session.)

I also thought of an alternative which I test-ran as a freebie, but never
charged for, which was to run pre-exam cram sessions.  The idea was to
find (or rent) a lecture hall at the university, and run a 2-3 hour
cram session the night before a big class takes an exam.  Everybody who
comes in the door pays $10, which would be a lot cheaper than it would cost
for them to get a tutor.  I did this for a freshman chem class without
charging, and got almost 100% turnout, and it appeared to really help most
of the students a lot.

Bob Murphy
bobert@informix.com
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: eager@eagercon.com (Michael J. Eager)
Subject: Re: transform a resume
Reply-To: eager@eagercon.com
Organization: Eager Consulting
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 07:57:05 GMT

In article C19@news.cso.uiuc.edu, ezellj@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (Jean Ezell) writes:
>ara@zurich.ai.mit.edu (Allan Adler) writes:
>
>>teaching. I could become less alienated if some university were prepared
>>to sit down with me and negotiate substantive issues of working conditions.
>
>Allan, you keep writing about how no company is willing to provide you
>with the working conditions you need.  But I don't recall you ever
>explaining what those conditions would be.  Would you care to elaborate?
>
>I've been reading your posts with some interest, because you very much
>remind me of my best friend from my undergraduate days.  He's employed
>now at a regular job, complete with security clearance, because he
>finally decided that the conditions of extreme poverty were worse than
>being employed.  He didn't enjoy it too much at first, but I think that
>he is much happier now than he ever was unemployed.


Some years ago, I had a friend who was a great piano player and sometime
composer.  He had himself tied into a quandry.  When he got paid for a gig
he felt he was selling out his art for a few pieces of silver.  When he 
didn't get paid for his work, he couldn't pay the rent.  For a long time he
bounced back and forth between two untenable positions.

Eventually, he realized that he could actually do good work and get paid
for it.  He now runs a music school and had been music director on several
plays.

Allan sounds like a spoiled child.  Hunger may change this attitude.


---
Michael J. Eager		Michael.Eager@eagercon.com
Eager Consulting		(415) 325-8077 
1960 Park Boulevard, Palo Alto, CA 94306-1141

Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: gcm@world.std.com (Gretchen C Macdowall)
Subject: Re: >>>> What is essence of SUCCESS
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 12:54:21 GMT

ssimmons@convex.com (Steve Simmons) writes:

>There are several good answers that are dependent with whom you are talking
>and for what job. 
>This may sound corny/canned but it is important for newly hired people to 
>have a similar mindset as the rest of the organization.   Otherwise, a 
   
But how are you going to discover that with these pseudo-psychological
test questions that people are scrambling to memorize answers for? I would
much rather see questions more directly related to the job. What's wrong
with "What is your experience working on a team?", "How did it help/hinder
your work?","What is your past sales record?".
   This kind of thing I don't think is so prevalent now, but I do remember
being asked lots of "If you were a tree, what kind of tree would you be?"
types of questions on interviews in the late '70's early '80's. Gack.
Xref: sparky misc.jobs.misc:8479 misc.jobs.offered:15279 misc.jobs.contract:4726
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc,misc.jobs.offered,misc.jobs.contract
Distribution: world
From: sgupta@informix.com (Shailesh Gupta)
Organization: Odyssey Ultraware, Inc
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 03:21:42 CDT
Subject: Contract position for Software Engineer

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
	InfoSoft has a contract position available for software engineer
	with atleast 2 years of programming experience on HP 3000 MPE ix
	environment.

	Please call or fax:

	Mr. Fred Hubbard
	InfoSoft Inc.
	20573 Stevens Creek Blvd. Suite # 200
	Cupertino, CA-95014

	Tel: (408)-255-4077
	Fax: (408)-255-4078

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

	***********************************************************
	   Please do NOT send e-mail reply to this account.
	   Send e-mails to infosoft@netcom.COM
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From: sgupta@informix.com (Shailesh Gupta)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc,misc.jobs.offered,misc.jobs.contract
Subject: Contract position for Software Engineer
Date: 23 Dec 92 01:22:50 GMT
Distribution: ca
Organization: InfoSoft, Inc.
Originator: sgupta@gomer
misc.jobs.contract:8160


Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: mike@drseus.jsc.nasa.gov (Mike Ross)
Subject: Re: What is essence of SUCCESS
Organization: Lockheed Engineering & Sciences Company
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 23:28:53 GMT

On the subject of weird interview questions, an employment application
for Citgo Oil asked me if I slept with two pillows or one.

I answered two pillows truthfully.  I've always wondered where that 
answer put me in their eyes.  I did get the job, but that was in the
early 80's when engineers could get jobs 'sight-unseen'.

- mike

-- 
******************************** mike@drseus.jsc.nasa.gov *****
* Michael L. Ross/C33 | Lockheed Engineering & Sciences Co.   *
* Robotics Department | 2400 Nasa Rd. 1, Houston, TX 77062    *
*(713)333-7094 voice,(713)333-7201 fax**********boring, eh?****
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: ryno@sage.cc.purdue.edu (POOH BEAR)
Subject: EARN MONEY STUFFING ENVELOPES
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 19:20:46 GMT

	If you are interested in earning a great supplemental income,
        stuffing envelopes, send a SASE to :

			STUDENT STUFFERS
			348-3 W. Oak St.
			West Lafayette, In.
					47906
From: jbm@hal.com (Brad Might)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Re: Companies ack of receipt of resume...
Date: 2 Jan 93 04:22:38 GMT
	<85933@ut-emx.uucp> <1992Dec30.172627.29064@dcatlas.dot.gov>
Organization: HaL Computer Systems
NNTP-Posting-Host: infinity.hal.com
In-reply-to: joet@dcatlas.dot.gov's message of 30 Dec 92 17:26:27 GMT

>>>>> On 30 Dec 92 17:26:27 GMT, joet@dcatlas.dot.gov (Joe Trott) said:

> (Srihari Shoroff) writes:

>>(Daniel T. Johnson) writes:
>>>
>>>(keith garrard) writes:
>>>|> goes something like "...although your qualifications were excellent,

>>ESD ('Eat Shit and Die') letters. Seems very appropriate. Even the best
>>get 'em, and sometimes get a job with the same company later!

> At Georgia Tech, we called them Flush letters.  


At Waterloo we called them PFO's (please fuck off) !

--
-- standard disclaimers apply --
jbm@hal.com (Brad Might)      
HAL Computer Systems - (512)794-2855
8920 Business Park Drive Suite 300 Austin, Tx 78759
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: mgw@world.std.com (maryanne g wolf)
Subject: Re: What is essence of SUCCESS
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 19:20:22 GMT

A person interviewing me for a programming position quite a while ago
asked me what my favorite color was.  I don't remember getting an
explanation of why he asked, but in retrospect, this may have been an
attempt to watch me answer a question for which I was unlikely to have
prepared a response.  The "essence of success" question sounds like
another question of that kind, so maybe the answer didn't matter as
much as HOW you came up with it.

As an answer how about: "getting paid well and appreciated for doing
something which one would enjoy doing anyway".

Mary-Anne Wolf
mgw@world.std.com
P.S. I don't have a consistent favorite color.
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: dsholtsi@csl36h.csl.ncsu.edu (Doug Holtsinger)
Subject: Re: Northerners moving south - questions
Reply-To: dsholtsi@csl36h.csl.ncsu.edu (Doug Holtsinger)
Organization: North Carolina State University
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 22:54:22 GMT

In article <Jan.1.10.09.23.1993.17564@cadenza.rutgers.edu> 
masticol@cadenza.rutgers.edu (Steve Masticola) writes:

> Specifically, have you had trouble with the, ah, insularity of the
> natives? Was it possible to adjust after a period of time, or is one
> always pegged as a damyankee? It seems like a serious quality-of-life
> issue. 

I accepted an engineering position in South Carolina and spent
6 years there after having lived in Ohio for most of my life.
I encountered no "insularity" in the small town where I lived.  
On rare occassions I met people who snarled about "damn yankees", 
but most of the time it was just good-natured kidding.  It didn't 
bother me at all.  The few people who do snarl about damn yankees
tend to be non-professionals anyways.  Just don't complain about 
the area, and you'll make lots of friends.

In the larger cities such as Atlanta and Raleigh, the atmosphere is 
similar to that of Northern cities--they seem to have been taken over 
by the "yankees". :)  People drive like maniacs, and they're generally
always in a hurry to get where they're going.  If you prefer that
kind of living, you may not enjoy living in a small Southern town. 


>- Steve "actually, I was born south of the Mason-Dixon line, by about
>         five miles" masticol@cs.rutgers.edu.

Close enough :)


Doug Holtsinger
From: fino@point.cs.uwm.edu (Alexander Finogenov)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Re: What is essence of SUCCESS
Date: 1 Jan 1993 18:21:53 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.2.5

In article <EfEDuOC00WBNM2ZpMM@andrew.cmu.edu> zh00+@andrew.cmu.edu (Zhengguo Hu) writes:
: 
:   "How would you describe the essence of success?"
: 

Correlation between desireable and actual outcomes of an effort?..
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc