HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cbbrowne@csi.uottawa.ca (Christopher Browne)
Subject: Re: Les interets collectifs
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, University of Ottawa
Distribution: can
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 92 16:22:36 GMT

In article <plante.715550056@iros1> plante@IRO.UMontreal.CA (Frederic Plante) writes:
>steven@spxtech.qc.ca (Steve Potter) writes:
>
>>From article <plante.715459277@iros1>, by plante@IRO.UMontreal.CA (Frederic Plante):
>>>
>>> On ne peut comparer la situation des anglophones du Quebec en ce moment
>>> avec celle du Manitoba il y a cent ans (et meme maintenant).  On a jamais
>>                                                                !?!?!?!?!?!
>>> enleve le droit aux anglophones d'avoir leurs ecoles au Quebec. 
>>!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

[Incredulous keyboard playing by Steve omitted...]
>Ben, jusqu'a nouvel ordre, il existe encore des ecoles anglaises au
>Quebec, et elle ne sont pas illegales.  Est-ce que je me trompe? 

Tu as vraiment raison.  On n'a pas COMPLETEMENT enleve le droit aux
anglophones d'avoir leurs ecoles au Quebec.

MAIS.  On a enleve PARTIALLEMENT le droit aux anglophones d'avoir
leurs ecoles au Quebec.

As Steve has pointed out (probably FAR too many times!), the rights of
anglophones to English schooling has been REDUCED.  For instance,
Steve's kids can't go to an English school in Quebec.  Ten or fifteen
years ago, they would have had that right.

Private English schools are, I'm sure, quite legal in Quebec.  I doubt
that Private French schools were outlawed in Manitoba either - it's
just that very few francophones out there could AFFORD to send kids to
such schools.  Just like Steve can't/doesn't want to afford to send
his kids to a private school in Quebec.

I guess that... Both Steve AND Frederic are correct.  Fancy that!

-- 
Christopher Browne
cbbrowne@csi.uottawa.ca
University of Ottawa
Master of System Science Program
From: steven@spxtech.qc.ca (Steve Potter)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: La constitution et l'Equality Party
Date: 26 Aug 92 13:04:56 GMT
Distribution: can
Organization: Securiplex Technologies Inc., Montreal, Canada
X-Bytes: 1050

From article <SBO.92Aug24210659@froh.vlsi.polymtl.ca>, by sbo@vlsi.polymtl.ca (Stephane Boucher):
> 
> (Cette question est ouverte a tous, bien qu'elle s'adresse
> plus particulierement a Steve Potter)
> 
> Quel est la position du Equality Party en ce qui concerne la
> recente entente de principe sur la constitution?


  Malheurement je ne suis pas membre du caucus du Parti Egalite.

  I believe it is still under study.

  I do have close contact with the chairman of the E.P. constitution
  committee, however, and I will post something on this, bientot.

  I am also planning a public meeting in Verdun where, I hope, a
  high profile E.P. person will come to speak on this subject. I will
  post details if and when this is is confirmed.

-- 
  ///==================================================================\\\
  ||| Steve Potter:         steven%spxtech@CAM.ORG                     |||
  ||| Expertise/Experience: Computer Systems Engineering / Real Ale /  |||
  |||                       Politics in Education in Quebec            |||
Xref: sparky can.politics:6329 soc.culture.canada:6220
From: grayt@Software.Mitel.COM (Tom Gray)
Newsgroups: can.politics,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: Has Denis Seen the Light or is he just passing gas?  Re: Tom Gray who is ra*
Date: 1 Sep 92 11:41:51 GMT
Organization: Mitel. Kanata (Ontario). Canada.

In article <BttMu3.MGr@ireq.hydro.qc.ca> beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard) writes:
>Revolution begun in 1960.  Trudeau et al were elected years after that.
>MOreover, Trudeau is an anglo!  His mother was an anglophone (Grace Eliot)

I guess I have succeeded in my quest to have Denis reveal his true feelings.
I suppose the above statement is more eloquent than anything that I could
say about the attitudes of the nationalist zealots that have afflicted
Canada on both sides of the linguistic gulf.

You know Denis - you're not even worth spitting on. However I will
continue to answer your little postings. When you begin to create your
little fantasies about oppression and and then claim that you didn't
when these fantasies are exposed,  I'll be there to reveal your
(perhaps unconcious) duplicity.

I'll post a reply to your full post later but I truly belives that
that will be redundant. It is chock full of non-sequitors, fantasies
and ravings about the anglo demon.

You know I wish we could create two countries. One for the people
who realize that what ever what, there are multiple cultures in this
geographical region that have to learn to live together. These people
and there antecedents have created a country which approaches
(with its warts) a paradise on earth. The other country is for
the people who can see relationships only in terms of domination.
The Dalton Maccarthy's, the George Brown's, the J.P. Tardivel,
the M. Duplessis'. These people can create a country along there
own tendencies and it will be they who have to tolerate the
bile like the above post not the rest of us.

>and he speaks french with a France accent, indicating that he did not
>learn French in Montreal!  The same way, Mulroney is an anglophone (he

Evidence - Trudeau is the devil incarnate!!!!!

>has a strange accent and I read somewhere that he spoke hardly French
>when he begun his lawyer career).
>
>>
>>Denis- by 1976 the Quiet Revolution had been long won.
>>There was universal education in Quebec and a federal
>>government controlled by the people who had created the
>>Quiet Revolution. Why do you think 1976 is significant.

and Denis still cannot accept the  success of the Quiet Revolution.
Primarily because he is not one of its supporters. If the Quiet
revolution was intended to open Quebec to the possibilities of
the world, its opponents wished to keep Quebec secure in
ignorance and reject the richness of other cultures. 
I would not see Denis as supporting the revolution. Rather
I would see him as a Quiet Counter-Revolutionary in the
like of Laurin - beating the anglo-demom to hide form the 
truth.

-- 
i.sinature
Newsgroups: can.politics,mtl.general
From: gordon@madmax.uwaterloo.ca (Gordon R. Strachan)
Subject: Re: Quebec law :: S.A. law re school access
Organization: University of Waterloo
Distribution: can
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 13:59:18 GMT

In article <1992Aug28.045523.7932@cc.umontreal.ca> pilon@JSP.UMontreal.CA (Pilon Guy) writes:
>
>	I know some netters will be mad because I take the time to 
>try to explain my point of view in the Shakespare language and others
>because I want to critic their negativism approach of the Quebec community;
>I beg pardon for all these people.
>
>	I was reading my news, quietly, when I read the position of Steeve, who
>compare the Quebec English people position with the South Africa's blacks peoples.  I can say now, this reading made me mad.
>
>	Every body in this false big country (CANADA) has to answer to this
>question to convince me to change one character to the 101 law.
>
>	1- Is'nt true than the French people of the rest of Canada as
>the same number of UNIVERSITIES where they can study in their language than
>the Black People of South Africa; against 2 major English Universities in
>Quebec.

No it is not true.  There are French speaking Universities in Manitoba and
I have been told of one in Alberta (it might be a college).  This has been
discussed many times.

>
>	2- Is'nt true, this as easy to the French people to has their school
>(like the constitution of 1867 promise) for the primary and secondary than
>the Black People of South Africa, against the complete school system for
>English people in Quebec.
>

No it is not true.  There are many french language schools outside of Quebec.
In particular New Brunswick Ontario and Manitoba.  In addition, no where in
Canada is there any laws preventing a parent from sending their child to a
French language private school.

>	
>	3- ......  for the health services.....
>
>

There are health services available in French in the centers where there is
a French speaking population (ie St. Boniface in Winnipeg).  It is true that
in some areas of the country it would be difficult to find a doctor who spoke
French.  Are you proposing that every town in Sask. have a French speaking
doctor on call for odd time a French speaking person happens to pass through?

>	4- .....   justice procedures in his languages .....
>
>

French legal services are available at the federal level through out the
country and at the provincial level in Manitoba and New Brunswick and (I think)
Ontario.

>
>	5- Who in this FALSE BIG COUNTRY (CANADA) would you compared to
>South Africa black people French people out of Quebec or English people
>of Quebec (for me neither).
>
>

I would call neither.  I don't see why we have to have a contest on who is the
most oppressed.  There is nothing to be gained by trying to determined who has
been hurt the most.

Gordon
Newsgroups: can.politics
From: gordon@madmax.uwaterloo.ca (Gordon R. Strachan)
Subject: Re: Denied access to English schools?
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 20:58:02 GMT

In article <12737@audetf> audetf@Software.Mitel.COM (Francois Audet) writes:
>In article <12733@grayt> grayt@Software.Mitel.COM (Tom Gray) writes:
>>No that is not correct. THere are people in the west who are fighting
>>to maintain their French culture.
>
>Of course, but this is beside the issue: in a few years, there will be
>none left. Give one or two generations.
>

Francois, Francois, when will you learn.  I think I have personnaly had this
conversion with you four times now and you keep coming back with the same
assertion that there are no French nor French services in the west.  Its
not true, please listen.  As to the above comment do you think those French
people arrived yesterday?  They have been there 3 to 4 generations already
and haven't assimilated so why would they all of a sudden start now.
Particularly considering the assimulation pressures are less now than before.


>-- 
>                                                       Francois Audet
>                                                           '
>        Telephone: (613) 592-2121 x1754     Facsimile: (613) 592-4784
>                          Internet: Francois.Audet@software.Mitel.COM

Gordon
From: beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Double majority
Date: 27 Aug 92 13:04:58 GMT
Organization: Institut de recherche d'Hydro-Quebec, Varennes, Canada

According to federal employees (fonctionnaires federaux), Quebec won
no addition power and just get the right to do a project similar to
a federal project if she rejects a federal project.

There is one funny point : each cultural project must receive a double
majority by the senate and the francophones senators.  The funny point is
that there is no exam to see if some is francophone.  In other words,
a unilingual anglophone opposed to a bill in favor of Quebec or French
speaking (or in favor of an anti-French bill) may declare himself as
francophone and vote as francophone.  It is the method at this time
the double majority will be counted.

-- 
  \_\    Denis Beauregard  *  internet:beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca
 /   \   Genealogiste officiel : Beauregard/Jarret/Jarest/Vincent
J   __>  Vient de paraitre : Andre Jarret et ses Ancetres
\_.-===  En vente par l'auteur                      Opinions ? Et pis non !
Newsgroups: can.politics
From: robinson@mdivax1.uucp (Jim Robinson)
Subject: Re: Future "Projections"
Reply-To: robinson@mdd.comm.mot.com (Jim Robinson)
Organization: Motorola - Mobile Data Division; Richmond, BC
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: 28 Aug 92 22:57:37 GMT

Francois Audet (audetf@Software.Mitel.COM) wrote:
>In article heath@mprgate.mpr.ca (Gordon Heath) writes:
>>I do think they indicate that the 25% floor is not a big issue in the
>>short term future but may become more of one in the longer term future,
>>if the earth is still around to fight issues like this, if the political
>>institutions are at all in the form they are today...etc.
>
>First, I doubt that your predictions mean anything, especially after
>50 years. Even if it would, it would mean that Quebec have a 20% share
>of the population in 50 years, not too far from the 25% minimum.
>Almost rep-by-pop. In any case, closer to  rep-by-pop than the senate
>scam.

No, it's not almost rep by pop. With 20% of the population and 25% of the
seats, Quebec would be over-represented by 25% - this is not a trivial
amount of over-representation.

As someone else already mentioned, with the direct link between population
and political power removed, the pressure for Quebec to maintain its
population would be greatly reduced. Thus, it should come as no surprise if
in the future Quebec was to eliminate the super baby bonuses it was paying
and to move to not pursue immigration as strongly as now. This would result
in Quebec's population falling even lower than current trends predict.

Basically, I think the 25% floor is the scam. A constitutional rule that
allows for the *theoretical* possibility of a province containing 10% (or
5% or 1%) of the population wielding 25% of the power in an institution
that is supposed to be rep-by-pop based is just plain ludicrous. 

>Second, I doubt that the Constitution (and the whole canadian system)
>will remain unchanged.

I believe that it would take the unanimous consent of the provinces to
change the 25% floor.  I suspect that the likelihood that Quebec would ever
agree to changing this (other than to increase it) is virtually nil. And,
if Quebec could be persuaded to go for pure rep-by-pop in the future it
would only be after CSQ agreed to pay a very high price. 

>Third, I also would not bet that Quebec would still be part of Canada.

Neither would I. The fact that the *federalist* Liberal Party of Quebec
appears to be divided over these proposals seems to indicate that even
should said proposals be adopted, this will not be the end of the story.
-- 
Jim Robinson
robinson@mdd.comm.mot.com
{ubc-cs!van-bc,uunet}!mdivax1!robinson
Newsgroups: can.politics
From: robinson@mdivax1.uucp (Jim Robinson)
Subject: Re: frais d'hopital
Reply-To: robinson@mdd.comm.mot.com (Jim Robinson)
Organization: Motorola - Mobile Data Division; Richmond, BC
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Distribution: can
Date: 2 Sep 92 20:16:46 GMT

Francois Audet (audetf@Software.Mitel.COM) wrote:
>In article robinson@mdd.comm.mot.com (Jim Robinson) writes:
>]For example, earlier on Quebec was talking about charging people who
>]*inappropriately* use hospital emergency facilities a small fee as a form
>]of discouragement. This seems reasonable to me, but as it is prohibited by
>]the Canada Health Act, Quebec could not do so without repercussions.
>
>PS: This is a Quebec Liberal Party proposal; it has nothing to do with
>the PQ.

I am sorry if my writing wasn't clear, but I do realize this. However, my
point remains the same. A provincial government has the resources to blow
a small issue like this into a large us-against-them issue if it so
desires.
-- 
Jim Robinson
robinson@mdd.comm.mot.com
{ubc-cs!van-bc,uunet}!mdivax1!robinson
From: gordon@maxwell.uwaterloo.ca (Gordon R. Strachan)
Subject: Re: asymmetrical federalism
Organization: University of Waterloo
Distribution: can
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 00:17:06 GMT

In article <1992Aug27.194008.1402@csi.uottawa.ca> mfrappie@csi.uottawa.ca (Marc Frappier) writes:
>Why is asymmetrical federalism so unacceptable to the rest of Canada?
>Why is the devolution of powers to Quebec perceived as a "privilege"?
>

In a nut shell: equality before the law is considered one of the most
sacred principles of this country.  Asymmetrical is precieved to be none
equal and therefore violates this principle.  The central question then
becomes does asymmetry necessarily mean inequality.  But, in politics one
never addresses the central issue.

>Marc Frappier
>mfrappie@csi.uottawa.ca
>

Gordon



Newsgroups: can.politics
From: clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU (Stewart Clamen)
Subject: Re: asymmetrical federalism
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University
	<1992Aug28.161832.6198@pandora.matrox.com>
	<BtpHvr.3A1@ireq.hydro.qc.ca>
Reply-To: clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 20:52:01 GMT
X-Posted-From: byron.sp.cs.cmu.edu
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <BtpHvr.3A1@ireq.hydro.qc.ca> beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard) writes:

   In article <1992Aug28.161832.6198@pandora.matrox.com> thood@corvus.matrox.com (Thomas Hood) writes:
   >mfrappie@csi.uottawa.ca (Marc Frappier) writes:
   >
   >>Why is asymmetrical federalism so unacceptable to the rest of Canada?
   >
   >Asymmetry implies nonuniformity of federal authority, which implies
   >an unequal legitimacy of votes by members of Parliament.  If the
   >Government of Quebec (for example) sets telecommunications policy
   >for Quebec, then Quebec M.P.s would not be justified in voting on
   >telecommunications policy for the rest of Canada.  This would make
   >the parliamentary process impossibly complicated.
   >
   >--
   >Thomas Hood                                                    thood@matrox.com

   Et pourtant, durant plusieurs annees, la ministre federale de la sante
   etait du Quebec alors que, le Quebec ayant son propre systeme, selon le
   texte precedent, elle n'aurait pas pu travailler!

La sante' est encore un pouvoir provincialle pour TOUS les provinces.
C'est une instance ou la gouvernement federale a decide a introduire
l'assurance de la sante et a donner des monnaies pour les manager chez
les provinces.

--
Stewart M. Clamen			Internet:    clamen@cs.cmu.edu
School of Computer Science		UUCP: 	     uunet!"clamen@cs.cmu.edu"
Carnegie Mellon University		Phone: 	     +1 412 268 2145
5000 Forbes Avenue			Fax:	     +1 412 268 5739
Pittsburgh, PA 15213-3891, USA
From: audetf@Software.Mitel.COM (Francois Audet)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Fete Nationale du Quebec
Date: 2 Sep 92 13:50:15 GMT
Organization: Mitel. Kanata (Ontario). Canada.

In article clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU writes:
]Basques (in Spain and France, perhaps Andorra qualifies?)
]Catalonians (in Spain)

I tought Andorra was catalonian.

]The key question I would ask:
]
]	Could someone celebrate both La Fete Nationale and 
]	La Fete du Canada?

Of course. Any excuse is OK for a good party.

]And, to cover my bases, even if it ultimately turns out that one can
]either be Quebecois or Canadian (in Quebec, anyway), then all we've
]lost is the Trudeau vision of Canada, having returned to the old/new
]binational model of the pre-WWII era.  I wouldn't consider such a
]situation as a strong rationale for political separation.

Trudeau's vision is that there is no such thing as a Quebecois. Period.


-- 
                                                       Francois Audet
                                                           '
        Telephone: (613) 592-2121 x1754     Facsimile: (613) 592-4784
                          Internet: Francois.Audet@software.Mitel.COM
From: thood@corvus.matrox.com (Thomas Hood)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Quebec law :: It's racist, Separation is unavoidable
Date: 31 Aug 92 16:05:56 GMT
Distribution: can
Organization: Matrox Ltd.

patrice@cs.concordia.ca (SCATTOLIN patrice) writes:

>	The greater concern all are forgetting is the unavoidable PQ election
>win. Eventually the PQ will win a provincial elections and, now as then,
>their main purpose is independence. Their recent statements are to the 
>effect that referendum is no longer needed once they win an election since
>their central policy is independance no if's or but's
>[...]
>The  consequence of this is simply that get ready for separation. 

No one will be in the mood for constitutional upheaval after October 26th.
_If_ the referendum passes, separatism will be discredited for at least
another ten years.  A P.Q. government will have no mandate to negotiate
independence and the Government of Canada will be quite right to refuse
to discuss the matter.

Separatists had better concentrate on winning the referendum.

--
Thomas Hood                                                    thood@matrox.com
Montreal
From: steven@spxtech.qc.ca (Steve Potter)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Access to English schools
Date: 4 Sep 92 12:08:57 GMT
Organization: Securiplex Technologies Inc., Montreal, Canada
X-Bytes: 1637

From article <CLAMEN.92Sep3122841@BYRON.SP.CS.CMU.EDU>, by clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU (Stewart Clamen):
> In article <Bu0DH7.4wI@ireq.hydro.qc.ca> beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard) writes:
> 
>    In article <1992Sep2.215130.12179@spxtech.qc.ca> steven@spxtech.qc.ca (Steve Potter) writes:
>    >From article <BtywH3.8o@ireq.hydro.qc.ca>, by beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard):
>    >>
>    >> There is some trouble at the level of language.  Immigrant anglophones
>    >> may feel discriminated in regards of natives anglophones, but since they
>    >> choosed to come here, then they should not complain (i.e. they choosed
>    >> their situation).
>    >
>    >NO! They did not! - They are not informed of the situation here before
>    >they come!
>    >
> 
>    Why don't you tell us WHY they are not informed?
> 
>    >> I think what hurts most the anglophones are the fact that now a lot
>    >> of them will have to learn French to keep social status.
>    >
>    >How does this hurt them?
> 
>    Because changing from a privileged status to a non-privileged status.
> 
> I hope that Anglophone citizens of Quebec remain a privileged
> community, by having access to an interesting and existing French
> Quebec culture while continuing to feel safe and secure with their own
> cultural tradition.

HEAR! HEAR!

-- 
  ///==================================================================\\\
  ||| Steve Potter:         steven%spxtech@CAM.ORG                     |||
  ||| Expertise/Experience: Computer Systems Engineering / Real Ale /  |||
  |||                       Politics in Education in Quebec            |||
Newsgroups: can.politics