HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rap@HQ.Ileaf.COM (Roger Powell)
Subject: Re: Pagan music
Reply-To: rap@HQ.Ileaf.COM (Roger Powell)
Organization: Interleaf, Inc.
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 16:26:03 GMT


How about some actual Pagan musicians?

Anything by Ruth Barrett and Cyntia Smith is wonderful;
their music is like folk music, but with good voices --
not much explicit pagan content, but a strong undercurrent
of mythological and folkloric references, with about one
outright Pagan song per album just so you aren't left
wondering.

"Libation" by Tamarra James and Jennifer Holding is one of
my current favorites.  Tamarra is HPs of the Wiccan Church of Canada
in Toronto, and Jennifer (now Jennifer Smith) is in the
Hunting Coven in Ottawa. This is unquestionably Pagan music,
by anyone's definition.

"Lunacy" by Sparky T. Rabbit of Chicago is also very good --
it's a capella men's voices, which takes a little getting used to,
but it definitely grows on you. My favorite cut on this album is
a direct translation from ancient Sumerian of a hymn to Inanna
set to music.

I've already mentioned Loreena McKennitt on another thread,
but I'll mention her again in this context -- another Canadian
musician, I don't know for a fact that she's Pagan, but her
song titles tend to include words like Beltane and Samhain and
Elemental, so I have my suspicions.  And the music is very good;
she has a wonderful voice, and plays the folk harp rather well,
though she's often accompanied by various other instruments
(some of them quite odd... but always interesting).


That's enough for now.

Blessings to all,
--roger

rap@hq.ileaf.com
Opinions expressed here are my own; Interleaf has no official position
on Pagan music or musicians. Nor would I want Interleaf to have official
positions on such topics.
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: yet more Pagan music
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 18 Aug 92 22:35:48 GMT

While at first, I sighed at this thread since it pops up with so much
regularity, I am not sighing now.  Why?

1) it provides a nice counterpoint to the coming flamewar over that
   "other" post.  I entreat you, people, kill the damned thread or else
   it will take over the group, just like threads like this always do.
   Sometimes I think the fundies post stuff like this jsut because they
   enjoy stepping on the anthill. 

2) I have something to add to it.

These guys may not be Pagan exactly, and their music is in some nether
world that defies classification, BUT I'm putting it here just cuz.

Try listening to the Gipsy Kings.  Songs that are especially good and
evoke a spirituality that I find attractive are:

1) Viento del Arena (Mosaique) I defy anyone to keep still listening to
   this. 

2) Luna de Fuego (Allegria), and no I'm not misspelling it.  They have
   two "l"'s there.

3) Volare (Mosaique) This has an unfortunate connotation of cheesy
   nightclub singers and `70's guys with bad hair.  The words are among
   the most inspirational I've ever heard; I've never heard them in
   Italian, though I'm ready to bet they're almost identical to the
   Spanish.  

4) Bomboleo (Gipsy Kings)  Any song that says "Porque mi vida, yo la
   prefiero vivir asi" has my vote; "I live this way because I want to."

5) Soy (Mosaique) "Y, porque gitano soy, como yo piensi hoy es un amor
   de vida."  "Because I'm a gypsy, the way I think today is a love of
   life."

6) Faena (Gispy Kings)

7) Passion (Mosaique) Again, there are two "s"'s.

8) Moorea (Gipsy Kings)

The last three are instrumentals, and can almost put me in a trance.  I
can't listen to them while I'm driving; I've tried.  Passion in
particular is just about the most sensuous and relaxing thing I've ever
heard.

Blessings,
Janis 

P.S.: I'm not kidding about the "other" thread.  Kill it now before it
breeds like rabbits in Australia.  

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: altheimm@nextnet.csus.edu (Murray Altheim)
Subject: Re: Chocolate (was Re: "gangway, folx")
Keywords:  Dark Chocolate, Dark Chocolate, More Dark Chocolate
Organization: California State University: Sacramento
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 16:59:39 GMT


>> THE NEXT STEP IS A SACRIFICE TO THE BITCH GODDESS HERSELF:

I hate to say, but I've already ceded my worship to Ciaran, who I've already
eulogized and cry to the moon every night over. Now being somewhat of a
polytheist (which means I use rubber bands rather than tape) I might have
room in the lineup for an extra goddess, especially if she smells good. :-)

* Oh, and by the way... What nice blue eyes you have!!

Prostrations to you,

Murray

-- 
Murray M. Altheim      "Ils ont l'orteil de Bouc, & d'un Chevreil l'oreille,
Instructional Consultant    La corne d'un Chamois, & la face vermeille
CSU, Sacramento          Comme un rouge Croissant: & dancent toute nuict
altheimm@csus.edu       Dedans un carrefour, ou pres d'une eau qui bruict."
From: darsie@eecs.ucdavis.edu (Richard Darsie)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: New Thread: Pagan Fiction
Date: 17 Aug 92 15:22:00 GMT
Organization: University of California, Davis

In article <0aBJPB1w164w@ailanth.UUCP>, ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy) writes:
> 
> 
> heinlein was a sexist homophobic unimaginitave dickhead.

I can agree with everything except unimaginative.
At least his earlier works were occasionally imaginative,
though he definitely lost his creativity at some point along the way. 
Have you read "Revolt in 2100"? About a popular uprising against
a totalitarian right-wing theocracy.
But Heinlein himself was very right-wing - probably due to his
involvement with the military. 

>                                                 -ailsa
> 

Richard
(Tuneweaver)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: Hitler and Christianity
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
	<1992Aug13.232426.27943@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 23:53:42 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.232426.27943@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au> 
mongoose@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Conrad Leviston) writes:
>	Firstly, "Religion is the opium of the people.". Karl Marx may not
>	Secondly, "The devil may quote scriptures.". Perhaps not a good

And the Christian Devil may even write scriptures, I leave you Luke
14:26 to ponder. Follow me and be free, he said.

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: a subset of the classic pagan lit for the serious scholar
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 00:11:27 GMT

Just some books to get you started on the path of the scholar:
Mesopotamia: Epic of Gilgamesh, History begins at Sumer (Kramer),
Cuneiform [one of my favorite shapes] (Walker), Egypt: Egyptian Book of
the Dead, Primal Myths (Sproul), Greek: Iliad/Odyss, Helen of Troy, The
Bacchae, Aesop's Fables, Latin: Metamorphoses, Golden Ass, Satyricon,
Sixteen Satires, Europe: Letters of Heloise and Abelard, any Wolfram von
Eschenbach, any Gottfried von Strassburg, any Chretian de Troyes,
Romance of the Rose, Mabinogion, any Nietzsche, any Sartre, Hebrew: JPS
Tanakh, Africa: any Achebe, Soyinka, Laye, Ngugi, Epic of Mali, Epic of
Son-Jara, Persian: Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam (not rocky and moose), Epic
of Kings, Rose Garden, India: Mahabharata, Ramayana, Panchatantra
(Original Aesop's Fables), China: Book of Songs, poems of Tu Fu, Romance
of Three Kingdoms, Outlaws of the Marsh, Journey to the West (Monkey
story), Story of the Stone, Japan: From the Country of Eight Islands,
Songs of Gods, Songs of Humans (Ainu), Tale of Genji, 100 Japanese
Poems, Pillow book of Sei Shonagon, Confessions of Lady Nijo, No (Noh)
plays, Monkey's straw raincoat, Tamura Ryuichi, America: Spider Woman,
Changing Woman, Trickster, Coyote was going There, Watunna, Cry of
Thunderbird, Yaqui Life, I Tell You Now, Hard Rain, Brother Man, It a
Come, Macho Camacho's Beat, Spiks, Schemes in the Month of March, Indian
Givers, Son of Morning Star, Black Elk Speaks, Guide to Mexican
Witchcraft, Tarahumara, Zapoteca, Yanomamo, Women of the Forest, Mexico:
any Carlos Fuentes, Misc: any Joseph Campbell, Dream Time and Inner
Space, Why I am not a Christian, Moses and Monotheism, Creation of
Patriarchy, Alone of all her sex, any Mircea Eliade, Book of the
Goddess ... Well you get the idea, it just goes on and on, cycles upon
cycles, you were expecting something else? I didn't say the path of the
scholar was easy, but if you want that, you can do it.

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: I waste my time (was: Hitler as Occultist (was: Numbers))
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
	<1992Aug14.001630.23013@unislc.uucp> <2A8B1FCC.1395@noiro.acs.uci.edu>
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 05:36:25 GMT

In article <2A8B1FCC.1395@noiro.acs.uci.edu> 
cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>WHAT IS IT WITH CHRISTIANITY THAT LENDS IT TO SUCH ABUSES? 

It's the conversion thing. Once I say that my beliefs are directly from
God and my beliefs are the only valid ones and there are many other of
us "followers" who say the same thing, and it is my duty to make you
also believe them, or in other words, I must convert you to my cause,
then I have been misled by the Christian Devil into doing evil in the
name of the creator. You then get a large body of followers who are only
followers because they converted, thus leaving the stage for the
Christian Devil himself to come in and present the meanings behind all the
dogma that the followers have been regurgitating without understanding
the meaning. This is the meaning of follow me and be free. If you follow
me, then I have misled you. The only way to freedom is through your own
heart. Nobody but you can show you the way. The individual must interpret
dogma for oneself. Just memorizing dogma and joining a big club of other
people who also have memorized dogma only sets the stage for a prophet
to come in and explain the meaning of all that memorized dogma and it is
unlikely that that prophet will be aligned with good, because the way of
good is not the way of one explaining how to the many. Ignoring one's
responsibility to interpret dogma only sets the stage. The dogma of
Christianity is very powerful and very confusing, failure to interpret
it for oneself makes one a pawn, at the least a pawn of con artists and
advertising, but at the worst, it sets the stage.
From: suelh@druhi.ATT.COM (Sue Hendrix)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Another Pagan Movie
Date: 19 Aug 92 14:09:58 GMT

Eric the Viking.

A friend mentioned this one--we were surprised not to see
anyone else come up with it.  Ragnarok, Valhalla, Hy Brasil,
and lots of fun.  There is a lot of stuff about reality
as a function of belief.  For instance, the Christian missionary
can't see Valhalla as he doesn't believe in it.  (He's a great
character.  Has managed to convert one person.  To Buddhism.)

I know it got swatted by the critics--but I think they were 
unequipped to appreciate it.  A fun romp.  
--
                                        Sue Hendrix
                                        att!druhi!suelh

           Subvert the dominant paradigm.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: tedwards@src.umd.edu (Thomas Grant Edwards)
Subject: Re: Tarot: What's the blank card for?
Organization: Systems Research Center, Maryversity of Uniland, College Park
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 04:39:06 GMT

In article <2A8BEFF6.9231@orion.oac.uci.edu> cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>It amazes me the number of P/pagans who get furious when a fundie posts
>and tells them what they believe, but these same people -- though
>entirely ignorant of physics -- will pontificate about it for pages. 

My view on this is that if you really want to get in touch with the
Goddess, with all the great forces of Nature, you should study
physics (and similarly biology, chemistry, astronomy, mathematics, etc.)
But as any good physicist will tell you, just because one thinks one
understands what is going on in the universe, one shouldn't get too cocky :)

Blessed be, and 73 de N3HAU
-Thomas
 
   


Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: radzy@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (T. O. Radzykewycz)
Subject: Re: New Thread: Pagan Fiction
Organization: International Computer Science Institute, Berkeley, CA, U.S.A.
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 04:09:13 GMT

ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy) writes:
> no other pagan fiction comes to mind...  maybe i shoudl get off my butt and
> WRITE some...

Ailsa

If you're willing to do it, I'd sure enjoy seeing it come out!  I
really enjoyed reading your myths when you posted them!

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASEPLEASEPLEASEPLEASEPLEASE

Blessings!

radzy,	who has had dreams a couple of times about telling Ailsa's myths
	to a gaggle of kids.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: mimir@milton.u.washington.edu (Al Billings)
Subject: Re: New Thread: Pagan Fiction
Organization: The Friends of Loki Society
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 01:31:01 GMT

In article <1992Aug14.205339.27199@burrhus.harvard.edu> canders@isr.harvard.edu (Carl E. Anderson) writes:
>
>	I have always been entertained by Elizabeth H. Boyer's books.  Like
>wise with Poul and Karen Anderson's Ys series.

 I've heard both good and bad things about Boyer's books. Just how good
are they and accurate when it comes to mythology?

Wassail,
Grendel
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Al Billings - Anthropology Undergrad - Admin for the Troth-l Mailing List | 
| SysOp of The Sacred Grove BBS (206)634-1980 -=- mimir@u.washington.edu    |
------------------------------ Cut Here -------------------------------------
begin 644 GRENDEL.PUB
MF58``1%^*@Q":6QL:6YG<RP@06S^`2N`$7JAHA^YG*D:W0:>,_,\N<XL-]7BN
LV+1/'DT4SH3V2$'*(9NAE_,+VB9R.4=@$9R.J1?CL3H!9@HR8+7DD3@%`!$%E
``
end
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: idfraser@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca (Ian Fraser)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: new hassles
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 03:54:22 MDT
Organization: Edmonton Remote Systems #1, Edmonton, AB, Canada

- In article <3N5oPB2w164w@drc.uucp> alizard@drc.uucp (A.Lizard) writes:

- >It seems that a group called the Traditional Values Coalition had
- >a local chapter which had a clown named Bryce Alexander giving a
- >fundie style lecture on the Craft. It made the news because a group
- >of Wiccans protested it.

Is there any plan to attempt to deal with these idiots through the courts?
Some sort of discrimination, slander, or "Promoting hatred" type of civil suit?

If there is, please post an address where I can send a donation. ($20 anadian
dollars may not buy mush down there, but t's a start.)

Anyone care to join me?

Hawk

' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' '
 
Bright Blessings to you and yours!  
 
Hawk
 
Circle of Ashtoreth, 
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada.
From: jblain@ac.dal.ca
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Pagan music - request for suggestions
Date: 21 Aug 92 23:42:55 -0300
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

X-NEWS: dal1 alt.pagan: 15702Path: ac.dal.ca!jblain
From: jblain@ac.dal.ca
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Pagan music - request for suggestions
Date: 21 Aug 92 23:37:31 -0300
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

In article <1992Aug20.003455.4563@leela.cs.orst.edu>, 
casspa@atlantis.CS.ORST.EDU (Paul Cass) writes:

> I would highly recommend Leslie and Amy but a can not remember the name of
> the cassette.  They too, are from Cananda.  Must be a hotbed of pagan music
> in Canada.
> Paul
> 
> -- 
>                           * * * * * * *
> "It is possible to join forces, to identify common goals, and to agree on
>  common action." - U.N. World Commission on Development and Environment
> 		       casspa@jacobs.cs.orst.edu

Some friends of mine are running a pagan radio show (midnights, Wednesday,
- the Witching Hour-and-a-half - but they will get a supper-hour show 
later in the year, we hope and believe).  They are looking for any 
suggestions for pagan/Pagan music. (N.B. especially Canadian because there
are some Canadian-content broadcasting requirements, but they
can of course play quite a lot of non-Canadian stuff too.)

Paul - I didn't log on for 6 days because of heavy work commitments and
missed the message yours was in answer to. What was the music it referred
to?  Also, "Leslie and Amy" doesn't ring a bell . . .

To everybody - suggestions for music or other stuff they can use (poetry
etc.) will be gratefully received!
-- 

	Jenny		Jblain @ ac.dal.ca
__________________________________________________________________________
	I was in many shapes before I was released:
	.....
	I was a path, I was an eagle, I was a coracle in seas;
	I was a bubble in beer, I was a drop in a shower;
	I was a sword in hand, I was a shield in battle.
	I was a string in a harp enchanted nine years, in the water as foam;
	I was a spark in fire, I was wood in a bonfire;
	I am not one who does not sing; I have sung since I was small.

						[from The Book of Taliesin]
-- 

	Jenny		Jblain @ ac.dal.ca
__________________________________________________________________________
	I was in many shapes before I was released:
	.....
	I was a path, I was an eagle, I was a coracle in seas;
	I was a bubble in beer, I was a drop in a shower;
	I was a sword in hand, I was a shield in battle.
	I was a string in a harp enchanted nine years, in the water as foam;
	I was a spark in fire, I was wood in a bonfire;
	I am not one who does not sing; I have sung since I was small.

						[from The Book of Taliesin]
From: Z57N000 <Z57N@UNB.CA>
Subject: RE: Survey
Organization: The University of New Brunswick
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 20:42:39 GMT

In article <920818174611_70253.2621_CHC74-1@CompuServe.COM> 70253.2621@CompuServe.COM (Chris & Susan Colvin) writes:
>When you die, where will you go?  (in the ground is not a valid answer)
>
Probably to the mall. Everyone at my old church is telling me I'm hell-
bound anyways.

>If you were to die today, would you go to heaven?
>
Well, according to mainstream Christianity, that's your decision, right?
Hmm... in Hell you can get a nice tan year round...
I don't know. I don't care. I'd kind of like to go to New Zealand
instead...

>If you were to die today and God asked you, "Why should I let you into my
>heaven?" What would you say?
>
"Because I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and doggone it, people like
me!!"

Somehow, I don't think that question is going to come up.

>What is my "agenda" for asking these questions?  Just curious.
>
Shyeah, right. I've seen your type before. I used to *be* your type. I
don't believe you for a minute. I have far more respect for the
alternates on the newsgroups you posted this survey to than for people
who ask these kinds of questions of the alternates. Please, go form
alt.fundie or something and leave these people be.

************************************************************************
DARELLA CASSANDRA PIERSON ("Relkie") -- nee Bev White

"Why do you think they call it evolution anyway? It's really
ELVISLUTION!!!!!!!!!" MOJO NIXON
************************************************************************
>Bye,
>CDC
>
>.
>.

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Subject: Re: That Virgin Mary really gets around
Keywords: Virgin Mary, Christology, books
Reply-To: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Organization: LaserMaster Technologies, Minneapolis, MN
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 92 19:53:39 GMT

>Murray suggests the book; "Pagans and Christians" by Robin L. Fox,
>"a history of the early church as it "took over" the Roman Empire
>from the ruling pagans."

  If you can find it, the work "The Death of Classical Paganism"
is also an excellent recanting of the same period.  I don't
recall the author's name, and unfortunately it's probably
out of print by now.  If you find it, please let me know
where !!!

  If you consider accounts of the desecration of Pagan temples
by early sects of Christianity to be Christian-bashing, then
don't even bother.

  Include std.disclaimer

  Blessed be, Ciaran.
From: donal@brewich.hou.tx.us (Donal)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: New Thread: Pagan Fiction
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 19:38:42 CDT
Organization: The Brewer's Witch BBS, +1 713 272 7350, Brewich.Hou.TX.US

darsie@eecs.ucdavis.edu (Richard Darsie) writes:

> In article <0aBJPB1w164w@ailanth.UUCP>, ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.
> > 
> > 
> > heinlein was a sexist homophobic unimaginitave dickhead.
> 
> I can agree with everything except unimaginative.
> At least his earlier works were occasionally imaginative,
> though he definitely lost his creativity at some point along the way. 
> Have you read "Revolt in 2100"? About a popular uprising against
> a totalitarian right-wing theocracy.
> But Heinlein himself was very right-wing - probably due to his
> involvement with the military. 

I would just like to add to this thread that although Heinlein was many 
of the things Ailsa (whom I love like a sister<G>) said he was, he had 
more to do with opening my eyes to alternative lifestyles and 
religions than almost any other writer. "Stranger in a Strange Land" 
opened vistas I had never imagined, and "Moon is a Harsh Mistress" 
introduced many of us to the concepts of Line Marriages. Sure all 
these things were not unique to him, but I had not read them elsewhere 
before I read them from him. Therefore, to him goes the credit for 
much of my awakening.

BTW, Ailsa? Don't bother slamming me for this defense. This is the 
only letter I will write along this line. Thanks for understanding! 

Blessed Be!

--------------------
Donal, Sysop of The Brewer's Witch BBS -- +1 713 272 7350
(Internet) donal@brewich.hou.tx.us  (Work) bill%pssi@lobster.hou.tx.us
(CIS) 76460,1443 
(SCA) Ld. Donal Dubh, IC of Dun Bruddair, B of the Stargate, K of Ansteorra
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: New Thread: Pagan Fiction
Date: 13 Aug 92 04:00:48 GMT
Organization: University of California, Irvine

In article <1992Aug13.013628.20129@sunova.ssc.gov> jasmine@sscux1.ssc.gov (Karissa Walden) writes:
>
>My favorites include anything by Charles de Lint and right now I'm addicted to
>the author who wrote _Gossamer Axe_ and _Strands of Starlight_.  I will post
>others as I remember them
>
>Karissa

Well, of COURSE _The Mists of Avalon_ is great, and so is just about
anything by Ursula LeGuin.  James Tiptree (Alice Sheldon) is also very
good, though she leans to science fiction (she's won a Hugo).  I don't
know if she'd be considered P/pagan, though . . .

Blessings,
Janis
From: darsie@eecs.ucdavis.edu (Richard Darsie)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: I waste my time (was: Hitler as Occultist (was: Numbers))
Date: 14 Aug 92 15:37:32 GMT
Organization: University of California, Davis

In article <2A8B1FCC.1395@noiro.acs.uci.edu>, cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>  
> And again I say: WHAT IS IT WITH CHRISTIANITY THAT LENDS IT TO SUCH
> ABUSES?  You can't have a dogmatic religion without this happening. 

     [long rant deleted]

Janis, you're right on!! More power to you!!
 
> Blessings, 
> Janis

Blessings right back,
Richard
(Tuneweaver)

     When griping griefs the heart doth wound,
     And doleful dumps the mind oppress,
     Then music with Her silver sound
     With speedy help doth lend redress. 

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: std_beaulieu@hg.uleth.ca
Subject: the netherlands...a late commentary
Reply-To: std_beaulieu@hg.uleth.ca
Organization: University of Lethbridge
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 02:29:11 GMT

and I would like to add.
not only does the Netherlands have no starving people, but 
       it has an incredibly rich, intimate and diverse relationship with 
       the North Sea, which not only runs lang its coast, but runs INTO 
       the country in many places.
  The bulk of the Netherlands was once North Sea, and exists by 
       virtue of the dykes which guard it.
water is the staple of dutch life.
 ..and the Northsea is a fierce mistress
Newsgroups: alt.pagan