HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: le01167@portal.lasc.lockheed.com (Ron Nadel)
Subject: Re: Favorite Ring recordings
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Lockheed Aeronautical Systems Co. - Rye Canyon
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 16:08:22 GMT

In article <1992Nov11.213924.775@osf.org>, coren@speed.osf.org (Robert Coren) writes...

>In some ways, the Levine videotapes are the most satisfying -- maybe
>because they *are* video, and the staging is mostly excellent. And
>they have Morris, and Behrens (who, for all her problems, does more
>for me than Nilsson ever did), and spectacular performances from
>Christa Ludwig and Kurt Moll.

It just goes to show that it takes all kinds to fill a freeway.  I
liked parts of the Levine Ring (although I have a personal problem
with "Chubby" himself), but one of the things I really disliked to
the point of distraction was Behrens' performances.  It seemed that
every time she had to reach anything above an A her arms went out 
(with fingers splayed wide apart) then down (conjuring up a sort of
vocal equivalent of artificial respiration - as if pumping a bellows
or something), her mouth opened into a wide and deep frown, and her
eyes betrayed her own doubts, not the character's.  And that is just
the visual analogy of her sound.  She did have nice moments, but I
was disappointed overall and especially at the heroic moments.  There
just in no one to compare with Nilsson - even making allowances for
the fact that she was in a controlled environment for the Solti sessions,
Nilsson was still great in the Boehm live recordings (also not one of my
favorites).

I do agree that Ludwig was a marvel, and you just can't say enough about
her.

> And Levine can be irritating, he has an annoying tendency to call attention
>to *what* he's doing with the music.

And how.  I just don't see the allure of Levine.  I guess they love 'im in
New York, but I rarely have heard or seen a broadcast of his conducting that
indicated any insight, revealed some subtle details in particular.  And I wish
he'd do something with his hair.

>Not to mention the oddness of Sutherland as the Bird (have I got the
>right recording?)

Sutherland is the bird in Solti's version.

As others have said, I listen to the Solti Ring way more than any others again
and again - and in terms of sales the world has bought more Solti Rings by far
than any others (maybe all others combined), but it did have a head start.
I'll bet it outsells the others every year.  In particular, I can find no flaw
in Gotterdammerung whatever - the sound, cast, performance, orchestra, chorus;
everything is spot on.

>Unless, like me, you *really don't* like the sounds made by Gottlob
>Frick.

Well, the freeway thing again.  To me Frick's sound IS Hunding and Hagen.  And
not just his sound, but his inflection or "word pointing" is so great and adds
much to the drama of the recordings.

Maybe we should vote on it, and have someone tally the votes for the different
Rings.  And also votes for the different singers/parts.  Can someone do this?

Ron
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: le01167@portal.lasc.lockheed.com (Ron Nadel)
Subject: Re: Brahms
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Lockheed Aeronautical Systems Co. - Rye Canyon
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 16:27:21 GMT

In article <BxL30t.8FM@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu>, kldawkin@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu (Kiwi) writes...

>My question is this: Are there other
>people out there who think (as I do) that Brahms is highly overrated?

I don't think he is overrated.  Either a little or highly.  We had a
similar question raised months ago about Beethoven.  But if you look
at the number of composers influenced by Brahms' works, I think it
is safe to judge his reputation as well earned.  Many composers that
followed after Brahms had their "Brahms" periods.  Mahler, Dvorak,
and Rott (Mahler's friend of earlier discussion) are among the 
composers who reflected his influence.

>That's not to say he didn't write great music... but I don't think
>he wrote a *lot* of great music. 

This is a recurring point, and one the world seems to use in passing
its judgement on composers.  I think this is one reason that Chopin's
name is not mentioned in conjunction with Brahms or Beethoven, his
ouvre was restricted to piano and so he has not been judged as one of
the greatest  - I don't agree with this estimation, or with using
that as a yard stick.  Brahms wrote much more music than Mahler, for
instance, anyway.  But maybe I miss your point, and you don't mean a
lot of music so much as that most of his music was not great?

>I simply can't get into his music at all. 
>I would quite gladly be proven wrong, and I'd love it if people could
>post some suggestions to get me going.

There may not be anything anyone can do your you, unfortunately.  But there
is plenty of other great music to enjoy without "forcing" yourself.

Ron
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: timothy@oahu.cs.ucla.edu (Timothy Plattner)
Subject: Re: Recomendations on Rachmaninoff's 2nd Concerto for Piano (Cm)?
Keywords: rachmaninoff, concerto, piano
Organization: UCLA, Computer Science Department
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 18:26:33 GMT

If you want aq good recording that includes both the concerto and the
rapsodie, get the Rubenstein/Reiner.  It is a great recording.
-tim

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: marca@ncsa.uiuc.edu (Marc Andreessen)
Subject: Re: KDFC - a question.
	<8285@public.BTR.COM> <83325@ut-emx.uucp>
Organization: Nat'l Center for Supercomputing Applications
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 01:05:34 GMT

In article <83325@ut-emx.uucp> jzimm@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Joann
Zimmerman) writes:

   Thank heavens for Austin's truly idiosyncratic classical
   programming.

Austin has superb classical programming -- makes me wish I still lived
there.

Here in the cornfield the late-night announcer is a fairly personable
``Peter Van De Graaff''.  But anyway, I was under the impression that
he was local, until I went to Chicago and then NYC in rapid succession
with Walkman in hand and heard him on stations in both cities.
Arrrrrrrgh...

Marc

--
Marc Andreessen
Software Development Group
National Center for Supercomputing Applications
marca@ncsa.uiuc.edu
From: angel@radagast.cadlab.de (ANgel Gonzlez)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Questions
Date: 6 Nov 92 10:30:38 GMT
Organization: Cadlab

In article <1992Nov3.155810.9045@news.columbia.edu>, gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Gabe M Wiener) writes:
|> In article <Bx59nn.LCx@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> reidkb@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Kenneth B Reid) writes:
|> > 
|> >(1) Why is classical music cheaper than any other kind?. The average cost of a
|> >rock C.D. is about 13 pounds here while it is not uncommom for a classical
|> >C.D. to cost 8 or 9.
|> 
|> Goodness, I never realized how expensive CD's are in Europe.  The average
|> price for classical CD's in New York is, I'd say, $11-$13.  I don't know
|> what rock CD's price in at, not having bought very many as of late.
|> 
|> >(2) Who owns classical music?  I mean who owns the rights to it, is there some
|> >form of copyright or can any bunch of musicians plunder anything they want? Or
|> >do the distant relatives of Bach get 1 cent each?
|> 
|> Music composed more than 75 years ago is in the public domain, and can be
|> freely performed and recorded by anyone.  The rights to a given performance
|> are held by those who put it on.  Some composers, like Poulenc, Bernstein,
|> etc. are still under copyright control.

	Oh, you are really lucky. In Spain, the average price of a classical CD is 30 Dollars.

			Angel. 
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: hurben@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Mike Hurben)
Subject: Re: Brahms
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 05:20:07 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO  80523

In article <BxL30t.8FM@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> kldawkin@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu (Kiwi) writes:
>I've been dying to ask this question, and right now I feel the time is
>right. Don't ask why. Anyway, my question is this: Are there other
>people out there who think (as I do) that Brahms is highly overrated?
>That's not to say he didn't write great music... but I don't think
>he wrote a *lot* of great music. The strange thing about Brahms
>is that although I like a great deal of music from his time
>(music of contemporaries such as Liszt, Wagner, Bruch, Saint-Saens,
>Balakirev, etc.) I simply can't get into his music at all. 
>I would quite gladly be proven wrong, and I'd love it if people could
>post some suggestions to get me going. I have heard all the symphonies
>and I am unimpressed, as well as both piano concerti, the violin
>concerto, the double concerto, all of opp 117, 118, both major overtures,
>and some of the Hungarian dances. And other things which
>I forget.
>
>
>So... help out!
>
>Kyle.
>   ,------------------------------.,---------------------------------.   \._,
>  /   7   ,7  o             o     / kldawkins@cayley.waterloo.edu    /   < /
> /   /--<'   /   /  ,  /   /     / kldawkins@descartes.waterloo.edu /     ' 
>/  -'    `--'`--'`-'`-'`--'`-   / kldawkins@napier.waterloo.edu    /    /7 
>`------------------------------'`---------------------------------'    //  NZ!
>"Don't call me God. Call me Pope so I have something to aspire to."    '

Well, I cannot help you out.  I must confess to feeling exactly as you do.  
While I realize that Brahms was an outstanding composer, he has not done much
for me.  I first came across his music about the same time that I discovered
Mozart and Beethoven.  I promptly went out and bought all his symphonies and 
piano concerti, not to mention the famous short pieces...overtures, Haydn 
variations, etc...

Then I met Mr. Mahler and Mr. Wagner and all hell broke loose.  I have not been
the same since.  A few months ago I went back and listened to most of my Brahms,
and I did enjoy it...but it did not induce the huge emotional catharsis that I
am now a glutton for.  But there is much that I have not heard...such as all
of the violin concerto, or the German Requiem.  Also, the little chamber music
that I have heard I liked, so I would like to hear some more.

This is not to insult the Brahms faithful out there.  I would like nothing more
than to have some music of his grab me by the throat and make me beg...

Any recommendations?

Mike Hurben
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Dates of composition (was: KDFC - a question)
From: phoogenboom@eagle.wesleyan.edu
Date: 6 Nov 92 12:41:21 EDT
Organization: Wesleyan University

In article <Nov.5.20.39.08.1992.8759@blaze.rutgers.edu>, zhu@blaze.rutgers.edu (Yi Zhu) writes:
> There is this station KDFC whose announcer practices a peculiar way of
> radio hosting.  Before and after a piece is played, he would give the
> usual info about the number, then a pause, then almost as an
> afterthought, adds a 4 digit number, e.g. 1865, 1934, 1786.  I found
> it quite odd, after a couple tunes, I figured out that it is the
> year in which the piece is completed.  So here is the million dollar
> question: Knowing the year(assuming you know what that number means),
> does it help enhancing your enjoyment or understanding of the music
> in any way?
> 
> I think not, so I am not sure about the point of doing it.
Many people appreciate a piece based on its place in music history.  A piece
sounding like Beethoven would be very noteworthy if written in the 19th
century but boring if written in the 20th century, from a historical
perspective.


And downright ODD if written in the 16th century!

Peter Hoogenboom
phoogenb@ucs.indiana.edu

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: lionel@cs.city.ac.uk (Lionel Tun)
Subject: Re: Best recording of "1812 Overture"?
Organization: City University, London
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 92 17:45:05 GMT

In article <1992Nov7.050543.2067@noose.ecn.purdue.edu> lungtt@gus26.ecn.purdue.edu (Terence T. Lung) writes:
>In article <1992Nov6.192644.20899@spang.Camosun.BC.CA> dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker) writes:
>>In article <chiu-051192100848@222.8.248.8> chiu@gpb-mac.sps.mot.com (Norman Chiu) writes:
>>>Hi Everyone:
>>>    I am looking for the best CD (in terms of recording and performance)
>>>of the "1812 Overture" by Tchaikovsky.  Can anyone recommend one?
>>
>>Best performance is surely the 1940 Concertgebouw/Mengelberg on
>>Teldec. He's the only conductor who actually makes it sound like
>>*music*. As for recording, who knows? (And who cares?)
>
>best recording?  I'll put my bet on that Telarc recording.
>Was it the Cleveland Orchestra?
>
>Terence
>

Yes, the Telarc is _the_ definative recording of the 1812:
Cincinatti Symphony, Erich Kunzel. Also has the Capriccio
Italien and the Cossack Dance from Mazeppa. The latter is
quite a little gem if you have not come across it before.


--
Lionel Tun   (lionel@cs.city.ac.uk)
Vision Group, City University, London, EC1V 0HB. 071-477 8000 x 3889
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: smitra@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Sami Mitra)
Subject: Re: The best Tristan und Isolde
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 19:28:00 GMT


	Unlike some of the other recordings of Wagner's late works I 
don't believe there is any recording of Tristan that is more or less
"faultless" in all regards. If you include good sound as a requisite 
then this pretty much will rule out any recording made before the 50's.
Even with that constraint in place I would consider, for example,
the Solti Goetterdammerung,and maybe most of the rest of his
RIng, or the Knappertbusch Parsifal(1962) to come
fairly close to perfection.
	Anyhow, here then are some of my favourite Tristan's, for
whatever it's worth.
	The 1972 Karajan recording. I like his conducting, some of my
friends don't. But Vickers alone takes it to a different plane
altogether. He, for me, IS Tristan. Dernesch isn't quite at the same
intensity unfortunately.
	The famed Furtwaengler/Legge recording. Furtwaengler as usual
has all his cylinders firing. I may get lynched for saying this, but
I prefer Suthaus' Tristan to Flagstad's Isolde. She is never bad, but
one has to hear her earlier recordings (see below) to see how much
better she had been! I wonder why Legge decided to go mono on this.
At this time stereo recording was in place, and this was a studio
recording after all. I have no problem with the technical quality of the
recording itself, however.
	Alas, if only the sound were better on the 36/37 Beecham/Reiner
recording. This then would be my clear first choice. The voices of the
legends are caught pretty well though. The orchestral moments have to
sometimes be aided by your imagination!
	Bernstein is in impeccable form in his recording. Behrens and
Hofmann are in better voice than most of their other recordings. But
I wish Lennie had Vickers and Nilsson! But you may want to sit back
and enjoy, if one can do that with Tristan, some good singing and some
awesome orchestral playing.
	I am sure some of my fellow netters will have nice things to say
of the Bohm and Kleiber recordings too. 
	Incidentally a Knappertbusch recording has been recently
rereleased by Laudis. Gunther Treptow is Tristan. Helena Braun is
Isolde? I have not heard it. A friend, a great admirer of Knappertbusch
like me, tells me that it is a uniquely "dark" performance. Has anyone
else any opinions about it?
	Finally, if you were to have a Tristan recorded today (lots of 
RIngs are being recorded, insufficient lead voices and all,
and Parsifals, but no Tristans. Maybe indicative of how
much more important the two principals are here?), by let's say
... Levine or Sinopoli...who would you want your lead singers to be?	
I shall hold my opinions for now!


						Sami Mitra
From: jzimm@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Joann Zimmerman)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: KDFC - a question.
Date: 12 Nov 92 15:48:18 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX

In article <1992Nov9.170318.19738@spang.Camosun.BC.CA> dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker) writes:

>In article <1992Nov7.061721.20323@netcom.com> jfh@netcom.com (Jack Hamilton) writes:

>>high percentage, but not zero.  I know I've heard Glass and Messien
>>(however it's spelled - nothing looks right) and lots of other modern

>Messiaen.

Jack Hamilton's not the only one with problems. The New York Times got
it wrong the other day--in a headline!


-- 
"Every passion borders on the chaotic, but the collector's passion
borders on the chaos of memories" 
                                                -- Walter Benjamin
 ...!cs.utexas.edu!ccwf.cc.utexas.edu!jzimm   
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: gal@bnr.ca (Gene Lavergne)
Subject: Re: Salome
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Richardson, Tx.
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1992 00:17:32 GMT

In article <1992Nov06.105137.3592@lloyd.Camex.COM> chrisi@lloyd.Camex.COM (Chris Ischay) writes:
>In article <Nov06.053519.38704@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>
>hurben@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Mike Hurben) writes:
>
>>Well, I just bought the Sinopoli recording of Salome with Cheryl Studer in
>>the title role...It is beautiful!!  I have already listened to it twice (I
>>am used to Wagner - this is so short!)

Cheryl is wonderful, IMHO.

>Playing it twice sounds like an inventive solution to lengthening short
>operas.  %^)  In fact, this one is really *too* short in a way.  It makes
>for an awkwardly short evening, and it doesn't exactly go with Pagliacci.

I heard they used to pair it with Elektra.  I don't know which would be 
worse:  Elektra, then Salome, or the reverse.  After Elektra, I think I 
would be too frazzled (psychologically overloaded) to handle the build up 
to the subconscious frenetic energy of Salome.  After Salome, I would be 
too exhausted (drained from the sustained tension) to be able to truly 
experience the obsessive hatred of Elektra.

>>... there is a lot here to like.  I
>>had never heard this opera before this evening, and I am quite impressed.

They are my favorite operas of all, just in case you doubted.  I'd love the 
chance to experience both of them LIVE in a single evening.  I have done it 
with videos.

Cheers,
Gene

| gal@bnr.ca (Gene A. Lavergne) | In all of opera, I most identify |
| ESN 444-4842 / (214) 684-4842 | with the character of Elektra.   |
| PO Box 851986, Richardson, TX | That often worries me.           |
| USA 75085-1986 | Opinions expressed here are mine and not BNR's. |

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: chrisi@lloyd.Camex.COM (Chris Ischay)
Subject: Re: Length of Wagner's operas (was librettos ....)
Organization: Camex Inc., Boston MA
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 13:42:04 EST

In article <BxGq6L.LMI@news.udel.edu> conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad)
writes:
>In article <1992Nov03.100242.21313@lloyd.Camex.COM> chrisi@lloyd.Camex.COM
(Chris Ischay) writes:

>>His music is
>>gorgeous, and very expressive of internal states, 
>
>Bingo.  You're getting real warm here.
>
>>but internal states alone
>>can make for slow stage action.  
>
>Only if you insist on being bored by internal action.  Why not treat the
>internal states as the real action?  Such an acceptance is the key to
>finding Wagner's mature works not only continuously absorbing, but
>actually concise.  Do you demand that people run around the stage, or
>are you willing to pay attention to what they're thinking and saying?

Thanks for your reactions and ideas.  Of course I don't require "running
around."  Nor do I equate "action" and "movement."  But I guess I do have
an expectation of physical movement that humanizes and supports the drama.
Wagner's characters are -- I don't know the right word here -- not human.
The dramas are *about* human experience, perhaps, but you just don't see
knights riding swans anymore.

There's also the matter of language.  In the example you cited of the Shaw
play, I am likely to find more "action" to keep me involved in the absence
of "movement" because the language is not a barrier.

I know about stillness, but I don't readily associate it with loud music or
operatic staged drama.  You've given me something to think about, for which
I say Thanks.  Now I think I should be quiet.

Chris Ischay
chrisi@camex.com
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: le01167@portal.lasc.lockheed.com (Ron Nadel)
Subject: Re: Favorite Ring recordings
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Lockheed Aeronautical Systems Co. - Rye Canyon
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 16:32:49 GMT

In article <mr.721561551@rwthi3>, mr@rwthi3.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (Matthias Rademacher) writes...

>[Solti] made a Ring in Bayreuth in 83 or 84. His romantic version was
>no success at all. The following year he did not conduct again.
>Unfortunately I do not remeber the radio broadcast (I do not have
>a tape of it). Is there anybody who can comment on this Bayreuth
>performance?

I taped this performance.  It is not nearly as satisfying as his
studio version for many reasons.  If we put sound aside, his singing
cast is not nearly as consistant, nor did it have many high points.
The Bayreuth orchestra is NOT the Vienna Phil, and there was no
Culshaw to represent Wagner at the rehearsals.  The amazing thing
is that Solti was soundly booed, and you could easily hear this
over the radio.  I was never so dumbstruck as when I heard all that
booing.

Ron
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical,rec.music.makers,rec.music.christian
From: dmnhieu@sobolev.math.purdue.edu (Duy-Minh NHIEU)
Subject: Looking for music for thanks giving purpose
Reply-To: dmnhieu@sobolev.math.purdue.edu (Duy-Minh NHIEU)
Organization: Purdue University
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 23:34:01 GMT

Hello world:

   I am looking for duet music (for low-baritone and alto) for thanks giving.
If you have any recommendation, please let me know of the composer and the
name of the piece.  (Any style, period are welcomed).  Also, if the piece you
refering to is an arrangement of a welknow piece, please give as much as information
as you can....

I don't think this is of great interest to the net so please respond through email.

email:  dmnhieu@math.purdue.edu

thanks....
From: misawa@physics16.berkeley.edu (Shigeki Misawa)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Books on Opera
Date: 7 Nov 92 17:19:02
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Physics Department
Distribution: usa
Reply-To: misawa@physics.berkeley.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics16.berkeley.edu



	Hi. Does anyone have any recommendations on books about opera?
More specifically, I am looking for a book that discuss the different
genres and gives examples of composers and operas in these different
styles. Thanks in advance.


Shigeki Misawa
UCB Physics Department

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: velde2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Velde Francois)
Subject: Re: Bernard Shaw quotes (was: Brahms)
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 14:25:46 GMT

In article <1992Nov13.000018.27805@Princeton.EDU> roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig) writes:
>
>Brahms did things just as drastic as Wagner did in the realm of harmony
>and melody, btw; his efforts were directed in different ways, however,
>ways that take a while to recognize fully.  

Wasn't Schoenberg a great admirer of Brahms the modernist?




-- 

	Francois Velde

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: alan@highlite.uucp (Alan McConnell)
Subject: John Williams, both of them
Organization: Gotham Communications Research
Distribution: rec.music.classical
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 02:29:20 GMT

I promised my brother I'd post this rather stuuuuupid question:
There's John Williams the composer(Boston Pops, Close Encounters,etc),
and there's John Williams the guitarist(plays all guitar music,
quite wonderfully IMHO).  I know that they're different people.  Are
they related?
Alan McConnell
-- 
Alan McConnell             "What wondrous life is this I lead!
Pixel Analysis              Ripe apples drop about my head . ."
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: sjc@borland.com (Steve Correll)
Subject: KCSM (Was: KDFC - a question.)
Originator: sjc@genghis.borland.com
Organization: Borland International
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 02:58:16 GMT

Years ago I used to listen to a fine program on KCSM hosted by John Klemm,
but I moved out of electronic sight of the transmitting antenna, so I have
no idea what became of it. If the John Klemm who sometimes posts to this
newsgroup is the same person, thank you for many happy hours.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical