From: altheimm@nextnet.csus.edu (Murray Altheim)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Chinese Religion
Keywords: Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu, Confucius
Date: 27 Jan 93 01:05:16 GMT
Organization: California State University Sacramento

In article <1993Jan26.165943.12379@e2big.mko.dec.com>
    man@labrea.zko.dec.com (Richard Man) writes:
>
>In article <1993Jan26.031411.20815@csus.edu>,
    altheimm@nextnet.csus.edu (Murray Altheim) writes:

[discussion of Benjamin Hoff's _The Te of Piglet_...]
>> 
>> problems. I enjoyed The Tao of Pooh. Just didn't care for the preachiness 
>> of The Te of Piglet, nor did I think Hoff understood the concept of Te the
>> way a Chinese might.
>
>I AM Chinese, born and raised in Hong Kong. "Te" is a difficult concept to
>grasp, and the nowaday meaning of "virtue" has more Confuician influence 
>than I like. As I have commented to my wife (who is a Pagan) many times, it is
>amazing how much cultural conditioning I got when I was growing up - I read
>children stories / fables that are Taoist in origin. To me, the concept of
>Tao is natural, but I think it would be more difficult for me if I haven't
>grown up immersed in it.

Richard, I think you and I would get along just fine. I've never been a big
fan of Confucius, and my personal criticism of Chinese scholarship (and 
most sinologists scholars in general) is that the majority of it has exactly
what you outline -- a predominant flavor of legalism, conformism, etc. and
not enough of the lyricism and folksiness of early philosophical Taoism. 

By medieval times, Taoism had accrued a healthy baggage of ritual and dogma,
the emphasis less on living and more on attaining longevity or immortality.
The early animistic, folk religion gave way to concentration on alchemy and
observance of detailed ritual, almost in competition with Confucianism and
the growing numbers of Buddhists.

The concept of Te is still in my mind (IMM?) rooted and hidden in this early
Taoism, and did not survive the transformation into neo-Taoist and modern
Taoist thought.

>The problem I have with scholarly text on Taoism (of which I have plenty, in
>English and Chinese) is that they are dry and not accessible to common people. 
>Come now, how many people think, "Oh Taoism, it's about yin-yang right?" Taoism
>is about life and nature, it should be enjoyable to learn / read.

Good point, which I don't mean to ignore, as I agree. I just haven't been 
satisfied with any of the popular texts, except the Lin Yutang (Modern Library)
version of both Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu, _The Wisdom of Lao Tse_. But nothing
really comes to mind. I don't mean to keep harping on Hoff, his books just 
didn't do much for me. I guess I feel they somewhat belittle the ideas as
much as they elucidate them. I did like Zen Flesh, Zen Bones by Paul Reps, but
that's Zen, and probably no more "Zen" than Hoff is "Taoism". *sigh*
>
>The best teacher in Taoism is around you, not some recluses in the High 
>Mountains (or have you forgotten Chuang-Tzu ;-) ). If only Chuang-Tzu has
>taken his own advice, I'd like him even better ;-).
>
>--
>- Richard F. Man (man@labrea.zko.dec.com)
>"Small Rovers, Big Dreams"

I'm not sure of the meaning of your comments on Chuang Tzu following his
own advice (as it is hard for me to separate fact from fiction WRT his life),
but I look to Chuang Tzu (or The Chuang Tzu ;-)) for much of my own way.

Blessings,

Murray
"Fall Overs, Pig Screams"

-- 
Murray M. Altheim      "Ils ont l'orteil de Bouc, & d'un Chevreil l'oreille,
Instructional Consultant    La corne d'un Chamois, & la face vermeille
CSU, Sacramento          Comme un rouge Croissant: & dancent toute nuict
altheimm@csus.edu       Dedans un carrefour, ou pres d'une eau qui bruict."
Newsgroups: alt.pagan