HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 20:44:58 EDT
From: Tim Bieling <QAA@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: biblical interpretations on homosexuality

In article <920828101105.312@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU>, MARK DRAKE
<DRAKE@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU> says:
>
>        I've seen a number of phrases such as "your interpretation" being
>written on the homosexuality issue.  Usually this is in reference to a
>traditional interpretation of the biblical passages on homosexuality.  I think
>however that people shouldn't expect others to completely change their
>understanding of scripture simply because they are told repeatedly and with
>emotion that it is out of date, or incorrect.

Although others will stick firmly with their belief that homosexuality is
bad/wrong/sin/etc, some people are taking a more enlightened view of the
bible.  The general mis-understanding (as I see it) is that homosexuality
is equated with sex - one mention of the word 'homosexual' and immediately
the thought of sex comes up.  I don't consider the bible being 'out of date',
but I do think the interpretation of its messages are mis-guided.

Every passage supposedly dealing with homosexuality has been refuted
time and time again, but the diehard types don't seem to listen - they
stick with their opinions.  When pushed on the literal interpretation
issue, they manage to brush off such sins as mixed fibers, among others.

John Boswell at Yale Univ has done extensive research in this area, but
again, the diehards brush him off - I think the diehards are AFRAID that
they are simply wrong, and they won't admit or accept that fact.

One final thought.  This is NOT a christian country, yet I, as a gay
man am not legally allowed to "marry" - there is something wrong with
that.  I still plan to "marry" my boyfriend in any way I can.

*small flame*  I am sick and tired of being slammed over the head with
the bible you hold so dear.  If you (collective you) would open up your
eyes and read the book you slam with, you'll learn something.

*sigh*

-Tim [who's sick of ignorant "christians"]
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Mailer: Elm [revision: 66.25]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1992 12:45:30 PDT
From:         Abraham Amirtha <aamirtha@HPIOSF.CORP.HP.COM>
Subject:      Bye for sometime....
X-To:         Practical Christian Life <CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU>
              92 2:44 pm

Hello Everyone,

	This mail is to say bye to all you people. I will be going on a vacation
to India for a month or so. So I shall be getting out of the list for sometime.
	I was not a very active member of this list but used to tune in now
and then. I enjoyed this news group very very much. Some of the articles were
very stimulating and encouraging and some of the mails were bad. I do not know
how you people find time to write so much to make this a very noisy group :-).
I guess that I learned quiet a lot listening to what people from different
denominations have to say.
	Please pray for my journey and stay in India.

--
Phone	: (408)-738-5593 ( Home ) 	Snail Mail : 450,N Mathilda Ave,#C104,
	  (415)-424-3686 ( Office )	             Sunnyvale,
		  				     California 94086
E-mail	: aamirtha@hpiosf.corp.hp.com
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 06:20:31 EDT
From:         Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: GOP Convention: The Setting

        Yvette,

        You repeat the common charge that George Bush lied when he said,
        "Read my lips.  No new taxes."  As I said several months ago,
        before you joined the list, when this came up, he did not. At
        least there is no evidence that he did.  A lie is a statement
        that the speaker knows or believes to be contrary to fact.  (If X
        is true, someone who sincerely but mistakenly believes Not-X to
        be true but who says X is true is morally guilty of lying even
        though his statement that X is true is correct.)  There is no
        evidence that George Bush did not mean what he said when he said
        "No new taxes."  He later changed his mind, which is okay.  He
        also broke a promise, which is not okay.  However, he did not
        lie.

        Virtually every politician has, at one time or another, broken a
        political promise.  (The expressions "Political promise" or
        "campaign promise" generally mean promises that no one expects to
        be kept.)  President Woodrow Wilson campaigned for re-election on
        the slogan "He kept us out of war," referring to World War I.
        After he was re-elected the United States entered WWI.  President
        Franklin Roosevelt promised that no American soldiers would fight
        in what we now call World War II.  We did fight in WWII.  Circum-
        stances changed.  This does not make what Bush did right, but it
        does set it into context.  I am not familiar with the details of
        why Bush broke his promise.  I think it was part of deal with the
        Democratic Party controlled Congress to get a budget approved.
        Liberal editorialists praised his action.  I wish Bush had not
        given in but had taken his case directly to the American people,
        but I wasn't there.

        Marty Helgesen
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Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1992 17:51:58 EDT
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: homosexuality

Ann,

    You cannot serve two masters.  Jesus loves you.  When you accept Jesus
into your life, you are promising to follow him.  If you don't follow him,
then you are following the world.  If you follow Jesus, he will take a sinful
lifestyle that you did not see before and he will open your eyes to your sin.
You can't be lukewarm and just say I love him.  You have to spend time seeking
him and learning his teachings and what he expects of you.  Why else did he
bother to come and tell us anything?  He could have simply came and died and
said "Ok.  You're free.  Do as you wish."  Do your own thing so to speak.  But
that is not what Jesus did.  He came and he showed us many things and told us
many truths and showed us the way we should live.  He is still showing us the
way we should live.  I never intended to tell you that I do not sin.  I do. I
don't, however choose a sinful lifestyle.  I have given up alot of my lifestyle
to be what Jesus tells me to be.    THis is not bragging but simply the truth.
I will continue to seek losing my worldly ways and becoming a better diciple of
Christ.  He will not be satisfied until I give up every sinful and prideful
habit.  I know because he has shown me this.  Many times I have thought, "Must
I give this too?"  I see him in my mind, smiling.  Of course, that is why he
is telling me about my bad habits.  He also has told me that he will give me
strength and the wisdom to do this.  This isn't some exclusive club that you
have to be initiated into.  It is for all of us.  THe same applies to all who
would follow CHrist.  CAn I follow Christ and still be a drunkard?  No. I don't
want to either.  He took the desire away.  He shows me how.  We continue to
strive to be perfect all of our lives when we follow CHrist. We don't try to
conform Christ around our lifestyles, but we must be changed more like him.
Just because we are human we don't have to be a slave to human desires.

We can never earn what Christ has given us but we must follow him.  THis is his
desire for us.  If we do not have the spirit of CHrist living within us, then
we do not have CHrist.  When you seek and are given the true spirit of Christ
you seek to follow his will.  I do not say this to be vain.  I say this with
confidence that Christ has given me.  THese things are true for all CHristians.
Put your focus upon Christ and seek his will and he will put his spirit in your
heart.  Part of seeking Christ is to study God's inspired word, the bible.
Not everything we are taught there is consistant with our will.  But it is
the will of God.  THat is our desire when we have CHrist as our Savior.
Original_To:  BITNET%"CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 13:58:00 CDT
From:         "Love does not subtract, it multiplies." <HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Re>Homosexuality

<  Leo, having love for one's father is not homosexual.  Homosexuality is when
<  one lusts after someone of the same sex and engages in sexual acts.  I am
<  sure that your son does not lust after your body.

Carl, you don't now what you're talking about.  Homosexuality is about like,
love, lust, and every other emotion a human is capable of feeling.

Dan
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Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1992 14:39:02 CDT
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: post cannon revelation
              1 Sep 1992 12:09:51 -0700 from <DRAKE@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU>

Dear Mark Drake ;

Like, man, you got me ... I am not sure what the connection between my
series on Matt 24 (eschatology) and my view on no post-canon revelation is,
as far as YOU are concerned.

Did you see a connection between the two points of belief?



perplexed,

Jesse Carnes
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu (Dr Nancy's Sweetie)
Subject: Re: Sponged
Organization: Glassboro State College (Or Not)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 03:57:02 GMT


Ann Carlson wrote an article referring people to books arguing that the Bible
does not condemn homosexuals.  In reply, Robert Weiss presents a quote from
the Christia database (written by an author who is not named):

> For those that are not aware, in _Living in Sin?_ (Harper, 1988), Spong
> argues that homosexual acts should not be considered as sin.
>
> Spong is also the author of _Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism_
> (Harper, 1991). In this work, Spong posits that the miraculous works of
> Jesus are myth (pp 129-33, pp 143-44), that the Gospel of John doesn't
> contain a single word that was spoken by Jesus (p 191), [ and so on - kwh ]
>
> I realize that Louie pointed readers to _Living in Sin?_ and not to
> _Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism_.  However, I think that pointing to
> what Spong teaches will help one to discern whether he is a teacher of truth
> or an apostate teacher.

And this is, of course, a paradigm example of the fallacy known as _ad
hominem_.  Instead of attacking the opponent's arguments about homosexuality,
the writer has attacked the man himself.  But Bishop Spong's personal
attributes -- whether he is apostate, inspired, brilliant, idiotic, insane,
immoral or saintly -- are irrelevant.

All that matters is the quality of his argument: does his claim have good
evidence and valid reasoning to back it up?

Attacking his character or his faith or his morality may make you feel good,
and it may bias your audience against him, but it has no bearing whatsoever on
Biblical exegesis.  If his conclusions on homosexuality are sound, then they
are sound no matter what he's said about other issues.  (And, of course, if
his conclusions about homosexuality are baseless, they are baseless no matter
what he's said about other issues.)

Why anyone would bother posting irrelevant excerpts -- or worse, quoting them
in another article 8 months later -- I have no idea.  In fact, I might observe
to my "traditional sexual morality" compatriots that such attacks on the
opposition, instead of discussions about the substance of the argument, will
only HURT the case for our opinions.

If we have evidence to make our points, we don't need to try and make our
opposition look as if they sacrifice their children to Moloch.  If we spend
our time running them down, it looks as if we have nothing in our favor to
present.


[ Pondering the relevance of that last sentence to the political statements in
  the current Presidential campaign (eg, "he's got no credibility", "he has a
  lousy record on the environment", "he is a paranoid lunatic") is left as an
  exercise for the reader. ]


Darren F Provine / kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu
"The biggest fool in the world can say it's raining, but that won't make the
 sun come out." -- author unknown
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Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1992 12:15:49 MST
From:         Madge McBurney <ISPMOM@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: GOP Convention: Monday 8-17
X-cc:         William Jordan <IF20159@LATECH.BITNET>

Bill,

I wanted to let you know that I'm really enjoying your rememberances of
the GOP convention.  Thank you for taking the time to share them with us.

Madge McBurney
P.S.  I join in prayer for Somalia.  Let's do it!!
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Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 08:42:35 EDT
From:         dave talaga x2752 <talaga@E5SB.OSDHW.SYR.GE.COM>
Subject:      Re: On-Line Bible: NASB available?

>      I recently FTP'd the On-Line Bible 5.00 from wuarchive.wustl.edu, and
> was wondering if anyone out there knows if there is a New American Standard
> Version (NASB) module available for it.  I think it's great, although I'm
> having some problems getting the mouse to work properly.  Anyone else out
> there have any tips?  Thanks!
>
>                                                  In Him,
>
>                                                  Doug

Doug,

I'm sorry I can't help you with the mouse problem, but I wonder if you could
 give me the FTP sequence to get the Bible (mainly the directory)?

Thanks,

Dave Talaga
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 31 Aug 1992 17:09:32 EDT
Comments:     Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X
From:         Angela Zimmerman <AMZIMM01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject:      Fund raising

Item Retrieval Assistant, DADS
Phone: 588-6757

I was thinking that rather than asking a band to perform a concert, why
don't the kids give a concert?  It wouldn't even have to be a concert
per se, but maybe a play, or a talent show of sorts, or something like
that.  That way all the kids could get involved with what's going on
and have lots of fun doing it.  For the ones who have stage fright, they
could hand out programs, do the lighting, etc.

Just a suggestion.
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Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 07:34:00 CDT
From:         BKCOBB@LIFE.UAMS.EDU
Subject:      Re: Matt. 24

Dear Jesse,

So am I to understand then that the reason you believe these events occurred
at the sack of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. is because you interpret them figuratively?

Oh, BTW, I don't think that Jesus' statement about the Daniel's "abomination of
desolation", or the Gospel being preached to the whole world would qualify as
"cataclysmic language".   Also, can you point me to already fulfilled events
in Biblical prophecy where cataclysmic language is used in a non-literal fashion
   ?
Just off the top of my head I can't think of any.

Brian
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Date:         Mon, 31 Aug 1992 10:24:26 CDT
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Dan read this ... Jesse

Dear Dan ;
Sorry about the open letter.
Please read my installment on the second coming of Jesus.
We can talk if you are interested.





Jesse "still alive from thhe tempest" Carnes
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Date:         Thu, 3 Sep 1992 08:30:00 +1000
From:         Ken Diefenbach <DIEFENBAK@TOPAZ.UCQ.EDU.AU>
Subject:      Re: Christian Youth
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU

One of the most fun  fundraising things a youth group I had (when I still had
feeble pretensions to the word "youth" myself :( ) was within the church fete.
Members (& yours truly) dressed in raincoats & sat on a stage. 20 cents for a
sponge throw from an appropriate distance. Free throw if you score a direct hit.
$1.00 let you use the contents of a bucket. No bonus for a hit there. Just
a (perhaps not fully kind, supportive Christian) smugness.

Ken D.
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Original_To:  CHRISTIA
Original_cc:  HUTTER
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 10:37:00 N
From:         Wolfgang Hutter <HUTTER@DULRUU51.BITNET>
Subject:      RE: Idea!

In a message of Tue, 25 Aug 1992 09:45:03 CST
Received on Tue, 25 Aug 92 17:48 N
A16905@ITESO.BITNET wrote:

>I've got an Idea, let's see if you like it:
>
>Why don't we decide to pray, let's say, once a week for a common intention ?

Good idea! Two or three people of the list could agree during the week
on a topic and submit it to Madge or Steven for approval and
distribution. Or one person could just do it without any kind of
'official' notions...

Wolfgang <><
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 21:49:01 EDT
From: Tim Bieling <QAA@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Homosexuality

In article <CHRISTIA%92083014593086@ASUACAD.BITNET>,
MKLINE%VDH.BITNET@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU says:
>
>Subject: Re: Homosexuality
>
>    From the July-August 1992 newsletter.
>
>    They offer up a reason that homosexuality is mentioned in their
>articles. If not anything else, it gives a reason that they find
>homosexuality wrong.
>
>    "HOMOSEXUALITY AND ABORTION" -------------------------------------->
>
>    "Occasionally we are asked why our newsletter contains comments about
>the issue of homosexuality. We have, on many occasions, drawn the
>connection between abortion and homosexuality, and will do so once more.
>
>    Homosexuality is unnatural and immoral because it separates the
>marriage act from procreation. Homosexuals deplore the values they do not
>share. Homosexuals, who would seem to have no use for either abortion or
>contraception, know there is no more effective assault on the marriage act
>[rest deleted]

This has to be one of the most vile things I've read in a long time.
Next I'm sure you'll tell everyone that homosexuals are going around
shooting families with Ouzis and stealing their young for "immoral"
purposes.

Shades of Nazi Germany - some of you scare the sh*t out of me.
If you don't believe me - compare the current Republican campaign
with what was going on in Germany as Hitler gained power.

I feel a war coming in this country - a war between diversity and
a fanatic religious right wing desparately trying to gain power.

Seems the "moral religious right" forgot all about the concept of
love for others.

(I'm sorry, but anyone who actually listens to and believes in
Pat Robertson (and POSTS garbage from him) has truely lost touch
with reality)

-Tim [amazed that anyone could be so blind]
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 12:50:27 EDT
From:         dave talaga x2752 <talaga@E5SB.OSDHW.SYR.GE.COM>
Subject:      Re: anathemas
X-To:         CHRISTIA@asuvm.inre.asu.edu

James Keifer writes:

>     The Apostle Paul uses the same expression in Galatians 1:8,9,
> applying it to those who teach a doctrine that Paul regards as
> undermining the foundations of the Gospel. Does he mean that he
> hopes that these men will be damned? Or does he mean that they are
> to be disfellowshipped -- to be regarded as outside the bounds of
> acceptable Christian belief, and therefore not a part of the
> Christian community until they repent?

James,

Are you saying that Paul's decree in Galatians is exactly the same as the RCC's
 decree of anathema?

Dave Talaga
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Date:         Sun, 30 Aug 1992 21:01:11 -0700
From:         "Steven E. Hoell" <seh@NEUTRON.PHYSICS.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: brethren
X-To:         CHRISTIA%ASUACAD.bitnet@ARIZVM1.ccit.arizona.edu

Steve Creps writes:

(stuff deleted)

>   Some people find it incredible that a woman could live her entire
>life a virgin.  Many women have done so.  Even more incredible to some
>people is the fact that a _married_ woman could live her entire life
>as a virgin.  There are known cases of celibate marriages, even in
>modern times.  So the doctrine that Mary retained her virginity even
>in marriage is not even a miracle, as everyone is born with the chance
>to repeat it.

>   What I find even more incredible is that Joseph would have the
>audacity to have marital relations with her, not because of who she
>is, but Whose Child was born of her.  Who would so dare with the woman
>chosen as the spouse of the Holy Spirit ("spouse of" in the sense of
>"lawfully bearing the Child of")?  I don't see as unreasonable the
>idea that Mary and/or Joseph would have thought having marital
>relations to be adultery against the Holy Spirit, whether or not it
>actually would have been.

The ever-virginity of Mary was not questioned until the time of the
Reformation, and even then some Reformers believed it.

In Jewish practice, once a woman had a child by a man she was not
to have marital relations with anyone else, period. If she became
widowed, she didn't remarry and had to rely on the community for
support. Hence the New Testament emphasis on the welfare of widows
and orphans.

Apparently following the "one womb, one man" rule, Joseph intended
to end his betrothal to Mary.

Ezekiel 44:1-3 is a  Scriptural basis for the ever-virginity of Mary.

(more stuff deleted)

Steve Hoell		seh@neutron.physics.arizona.edu
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Date:         Mon, 31 Aug 1992 11:05:14 CDT
From:         Yvette Traylor <YST1@DCCCDBIT.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Christian Youth

Jason,
>
> How old are your youth?
The ones that I teach are girls 15-17.
>
> One of the best things is to make the Word relate to
> their day-to-day lives.  This can be done by finding
> answers to current questions in the Bible.
Well the real problem here is that, they don't have time to read the
Bible now, too much homework, and then they have to talk on the phone
and watch T.V. :-) But I get what you are saying, I will ask them to
give me Biblical examples on how to solve problems that are in next
weeks lesson. Thanks, that a great idea Jason.
>
> There are a zillion fund-raising things that can be done.
> I know that this one is probably overdone, but I loved
> doing carwashes, when we were raising money for camp
>
The youth that go to camp range in ages from 12 - 17.
We have done carwashes and bake sales, T-shirts, family night, chruch
buttons, Stay  at Home Teas. Do you know of any exciting Fund raises
that would get,'I'm Tired or Car Wash and Bake sales' Youth and
parents, interested and involved.

   Yvette Traylor     "We are His people and the sheep of his pasture."
   Dallas County Community College District             Psalm 100:3
   Computer Programmer/Analyst  in  Dallas - Texas
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Date:         Tue, 25 Aug 1992 14:20:16 EDT
From:         Leo W <Leo_W@QM.CIRCA.UFL.EDU>
Subject:      Scripturette 8/25
X-To:         Christia <christia@asuvm.inre.asu.edu>

"Everyone who says that he believes in the Lord must stop doing wrong" (2
Timothy 2:19).

Yours in Christ Jesus,
Leo

Scriptures quoted from the International Children's Bible (ICB), New Century
Version, copyright 1986, 1988 by Word Publishing, Dallas, Texas 75039.  Used by
permission.
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