From: muchow@zebo.network.com (Jim Muchow)
Subject: Re: Americans! *smile*
Bcc: muchow
Organization: Network Systems Corporation
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 92 16:38:16 GMT

In article <1992Sep28.004158.26266@morrow.stanford.edu> silva@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Holly Silva) writes:
>>flag of patriotism in my country been run up for any causes other than
>>the suppression of progressive dissent, the enforcement of obience to
>>establishment dictates, and the furtherance of brutal and selfish
>>overseas military adventures.
> 	
>	And this is very much the fault of our self-hating, craven
>Liberal wing. 

Say what? Self-hating? Craven? Perhaps you could explain...

>The Left or Liberal side of the political spectrum has
>allowed patriotism and pride in America to be exppropriate by the
>petty demagogues of the far right during the past quarter century.

Bull. The Left or Liberal side of the political spectrum has allowed 
*simplistic, jingoistic expressions of* patriotism and pride in America
to be... 

>I sense strongly that this is due to their belief that all patriotism
>is nasty _because_ it is intrinsically sentimental, rather than for 
>any more intelligent reason.

Not really. But simplistic and jingoistic expressions of patriotism are
almost always intrinsically sentimental and lack very little intelligent
reason.

>In my experience, this fear/distaste for
>anything which smacks of patriotism is rooted in a lack of intrinsic
>American thought on the Left, and in their rather pathetic worship of 
>all things European. 

So... Leftist or Liberal thought is truly un-American. So does that mean
that Liberals or Leftists are un-American, counterfeit Americans, or
maybe even traitors?

>	i.e., the view of all forms of Swedish-style socialism as
>intrinsically wonderful, without considering the inapplicability of
>much of what they've constructed to our much larger, more polyglot
>society.

Eh?

>	Most of the 'people of the world' today either,
>
>	1) engage in this sort of jingoism themselves: (Serbia, Iran,
>	Iraq,  Le Pen's party in France, Russian nationalists in 
>	Russia, every nationalist splinter group now active in the
>	former Soviet Union.....etc., Argentina in re: the Malvinas/
>	Falklands.......etc.)
>
>				or
>
>	2) live in societies which only quite recently eschewed this
>	form of behavior: (Germany, Britain, Japan)

Are you saying that Germany & Great Britain do NOT have Le Pen-type 
parties? That the Japanese are NOT jingoistic? And do you mean parts
of countries or regions? Or do you mean subcultures? What exactly do
you mean by the above?

>	While 'that kind of patriotism' does indeed deserve contempt
>it is far from unique to the US. The desire of many both here and
>abroad to present American patriotism as a purely vicious vehicle
>of American hegemony is,
>
>	1) not rooted in historical reality

So, why not just ask for proof instead of flying off the handle?

>	2) borne of an excessive willingness to ignore the hegemonic,
>	violent tendencies within their own societies.

This is irrelevant unless said person is trying to state their own 
nation is somehow "better" than America. If America displays "hegemonic,
violent tendencies" to the degree that any fool can see it, then 
where one comes from does not matter...

Jim Muchow - except in your paranoia



Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa,talk.politics.misc