From: phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone)
Subject: Re: The Scope of Education (Re: "encouraging tolerance" is a bad goal)
Organization: Generally in favor of, but mostly random.
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 22:02:37 GMT

    In article <1acnocINNgui@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>
    stephen@orchid.UCSC.EDU () writes:
    >>In article <st+p4#n.phil@netcom.com> phil@netcom.com (Phil
    >>Ronzone) writes:
    >>
    >>>2. The State forces a belief monopoly on schools (and on
    >>>private tutoring as well in many states), thus making hard to
    >>>impossible for some parents to have their kids taught as they
    >>>wish.
    >>>
    >>>
    >A belief monopoly - all systems of education are just that,
    >what would you have your childern taught? A requirement of
    >educational system is to produce a set of viewpoints and
    >concepts that insure the survival of the system itself.
    >Teaching people requires that they be able to fit in to the
    >social structure.

You realize how revealing you are?

1. An "educational system" is NOT a volitional entity. It can not
   act in a volitional way -- it can not seek its own survival.
   Indeed, to speak this way is an evasion of the reality that what
   you call the "educational system" is a group of people with
   in all probability a diverse set of viewpoints.

2. Why should people be taught to fit into any particular social
   structure? It may be a good goal when teachign say, thou shalt
   not steal, but considering the large and growing amount of
   "crap" being taught (mostly PC(tm) crap), but A GOOD GOAL DOES
   NOT A FASCIST ENABLE.

   You teach you kids what you want, I'll teach my kids what I want.
   Do you have a proble with this?


3. To answer your first question, I'll teach my children what I
   damn well please.

    >Besides- most parents I know are not good examples of the
    >aspirations of an educated person. They tend to 'coerce'
    >(favorite word) their offspring into behaving and thinking as
    >to do. This is not educational progress, but rather a strict
    >form of 'status quo'.

This sounds very snobbish and elitist. Because YOU don't think most
people "are good examples", you're ready to impose YOUR values w.r.t.
education on them.

Is your life so well run, so superb an example, that you really
think you can impose your choices on other people???

    >I suppose if a majority of parents were involved in the
    >education of their childern to a large extent, then I would
    >say that parents would need to construct a consortium to
    >build a curriculum that reflects the views of the group. You
    >have the right to expose and teach your childern about your
    >beliefs and concepts, but you do not have the right to keep
    >beliefs and concepts of others' away from them- this is a
    >form of coercive education.

I think you are serious! I bloody well do have the right to keep
beliefs and concepts of others away from children. And 99%+ of
all non-disfunctional parents agree with this. Do you really
think I don't have a right to keep the beliefs and concepts of
say {the KKK, Flat Earth society, NAZIs, NAMBLA, Jehovahs Witnesses
(or any religion), the PC(tm), ..} away from my kid, not to mention
those of strangers bearing lollipops?

    >IMHO it would take a great effort by parents in order to
    >bring about this type of change in our educational system,
    >but it is the parents who gave the state the power to perform
    >this function. So parents get involved and make a change in
    >the process, stop making everything in life a financial
    >choice, that is most parents and non-parents tend to bring up
    >the tax issue. If people were that concerned it would have
    >changed by now. I think many parents gladly accept and pay
    >these taxes becuase it takes the burder off of them.

Parents gave no such right to the State. The State took it piece
by piece. And I think Proposition 13 has defnitely put the lie of
"gladly accept... taxes" to rest.

The basic assumptions shown in your posts make you seem like
a recent college graduate, with no children and not much exprience
in paying taxes. Plus, it seems unlikely that you paid for your
education itself.

You have an incredible belief in the benign nature of the State
along with a totally assuptive position that you should be one
of the elite deciding such things for the poor and mere underlings.



Me? I think I and 100% of all people have our hands full in just
running our own lives. To assume that I could decide say, what some
other parents kids  shold be taught would be near-obscene arrogance.

-- 
phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone)

"I can't get no satisfaction ...", M. Jagger
"Yeah, right, tell me another one Mick.", P. Ronzone

These opinions are MINE, and you can't have 'em!  (But I'll rent 'em cheap ...)