HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Subject: Re: Indentation
Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 23:37:40 GMT

In article <cyanpy=.thinman@netcom.com> thinman@netcom.com (Technically Sweet) writes:
>
>Graphics computers have been shipping since 1976 (Apple II).

PDP-8/e VT-8/E option since 1974.

Also there were some earlier systems with video graphics, and of course
various 'scope tube systems (LINC 1962 for one).

cjl
Newsgroups: comp.human-factors
From: kornfeld@leland.Stanford.EDU (Judith Kornfeld)
Subject: IGCHI Conference Proc.FOR SALE!
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Distribution: ba
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 92 16:57:14 GMT

		FOR SALE!

New, unused, still in shrink-wrap...

1. UIST '91, Proceedings of the ACM SIGGRAPH/SIGCHI Symposium on
User Interface Software and Technology, November 11-13, 1991.

List:	$20.00
Sell at:$15.00

2.CHI '92, Proceedings of the ACM/SIGCHI Conference, Human Factors in 
Computing Systems, Addison Wesley.

List:	$49.50
Sell at:$30.00

email: kornfeld@leland.stanford.edu
voice: (415)327-2216/leave message
From: guido@cwi.nl (Guido van Rossum)
Newsgroups: comp.human-factors
Subject: Re: Knobs are better than sliders
Date: 28 Aug 92 12:34:38 GMT

I agree that, in hardware, knobs are better than sliders.  At least on
hifi systems the sliders that once were considered "modern" design
have long since been replaced by knobs again, I'm sure because the
users didn't like them.

However, don't make the mistake of translating this bit of knowledge
into the metaphorical world of GUIs.  I've used some interfaces that
use knobs to control certain parameters, and they *suck*.  Of course,
this is because you can't turn them in the obvious way (by turning the
hand that holds the mouse) -- you have to draw an arc with the mouse.

--Guido van Rossum, CWI, Amsterdam <guido@cwi.nl>
"Well as a matter of fact it's *very* runny, sir"
From: mathew@mantis.co.uk (mathew)
Newsgroups: comp.human-factors
Subject: Re: GUIs Considered Harmful
Keywords: n
Date: 2 Sep 92 15:02:28 GMT
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.

ghm@ccadfa.cc.adfa.oz.au (Geoff Miller) writes:
> You mean, typing in commands like "mv *.txt ...."?
> Surely the  point is that there are some things which are amenable to 
> a point-and-shoot approach, and some things which aren't.

Well, can you think of things which one might plausibly want to do which are
inherently unsuitable for a GUI?  Not things which current GUIs don't do, I
mean things which are genuinely not amenable to point-and-click solutions.

I mean, your "mv *.txt ..." on the Mac is "Choose view by type, drag select
the text files, drag to the destination."  This doesn't seem to me to be
harder than the command line way of doing it, especially given that
understanding wildcards is actually quite tricky for normal people.

I'm not saying there aren't things which a GUI can't do well, I'm just asking
if you can give us a few examples.


mathew
-- 
"Even the most bizarre of the unions (probably that between a cat's gall
 stone and a single note 'G' from CNN's ident theme) managed to convey a
 sense of rampant impropriety."  -- 'Fortran Five', Simon G. Lawrence Leonard
Xref: sparky comp.human-factors:1872 alt.folklore.computers:13053
From: thinman@netcom.com (Technically Sweet)
Newsgroups: comp.human-factors,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Indentation
Date: 25 Aug 92 18:04:45 GMT
Organization: International Foundation for Internal Freedom


Graphics computers have been shipping since 1976 (Apple II).
Why are you all still programming completely in text?

-- 

Lance Norskog

Data is not information is not knowledge is not wisdom.
Newsgroups: comp.human-factors
From: jaime_guerrero@afs.com
Subject: Re: Knobs are better than sliders
Reply-To: jaime_guerrero@afs.com
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 18:14:28 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.004713.11923@beaver.cs.washington.edu>  
dberman@cs.washington.edu (Deborah Berman) writes:
|  Well, this may be true, but as for me, I wish that the shower came with
|  sliders rather than knobs, for all the times I have accidentally increased
|  the temperature, when I meant to decrease it (ouch! :).  (Actually, maybe
|  this has more to do with poor labelling than the knob-structure.)
|  
|  Debbie

You must be using a two-knob faucet!- I have experienced that problem as well-  
sometimes you turn the knobs in the same direction (clockwise) to close,  
sometimes in opposite directions (top toward the center).

You know what Donald Norman says about the need to label [simple] controls- it  
indicates poor design!

I vastly prefer single-knob or lever faucets, since they all work the same  
way: pull out [knobs] or push up [levers] for volume; right for colder, left  
for hotter. They can easily be operated with one hand or the back of the hand  
in case you've got glop all over both hands.  And, they're washerless.

So why are old-fashioned two-knob faucets all the rage in faucet design these  
days?

--
Jaime F. Guerrero                              "How well do we use
Anderson Financial Systems, Inc.                The freedom to choose
Springhouse, PA, USA                            The illusions we create?"
jaime@afs.com          [NeXTmail accepted]      -Timbuk 3
From: conaway@tuna.cis.ohio-state.edu (jason william conaway)
Newsgroups: comp.human-factors
Subject: Re: Knobs are better than sliders
Date: 27 Aug 92 19:06:51 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University Dept. of Computer and Info. Science

In article <1992Aug27.055252.28402@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au> ransom@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au (Mr S. Ransom) writes:
>In article <1hZ33V#82f0tg2jvsRT1BGbkM9jBSCw=esr@snark.thyrsus.com> esr@snark.thyrsus.com (Eric S. Raymond) writes:
>
>>I was in the shower with my girlfriend this morning, and happened to be in
>>a Zenlike notice-everything mood when she adjusted the water temperature.
>>                              ...
>>Proposed: Knobs are better than sliders
>
>
>This is my first (ever) post so standard disclaimers apply.
>
>I'm fascinated by the concept (and jealous of the source :-) ).
>
>From a perfunctory chat with the nearest hardware person it seems that
>the mouse has three internal sensors for tracking the movement of the 
>ball so the raw data is available to determine rotation. 


Not true. There ARE three rollers, but only two are connected to sensors. The
third roller is just keeps the ball from sticking. No data is collected from
the diagonal roller. The x-y data is obtained directly from the horizontal
and vertical roller sensors.


>I was also told that the mouse movement data ultimately delivered by the
>driver is limited to XY coordinate changes.  


Correct. Only x-y delta movements are returned.

>Now in order to do this either the mouse itself or (more likely) the 
>driver has to be stripping the rotational information out of the data 
>delivered by the three sensors.
>
>Can anyone comment as to where this mapping occurs and, if it is in 
>the driver, are there any standards (and drivers) which do extract and 
>deliver the rotational data?


In most cases, the sensors are opto-electronic devices, and their output is
linearly proportional to the movement of the mouse. No mapping is necessary.
The conversion from rotational information to linear delta movements is
performed opto-mechanically. A roller turns its shaft which turns a slotted
wheel. The sensor emits a stream of light that is alternately blocked and
unblocked by the slots in the wheel. The pulses of light are received by a
sensor on the opposite side of the wheel and converts the light energy into
electrical pulses. These pulses are then encoded as delta movements, and are
sent to the computer.


>Also, it would seem that a large diameter (say 5cm or so) trackball 
>would be more useful than a mouse for this.  I use only my wrist to 
>control a mouse but need my fingers and wrist to turn a tap with any 
>sort of fine control (I lock my fingers if the tap is sticking and I 
>need brute force).
>-- 
>Stephen Ransom                        | Department of Software Development
>Telnet: ransom@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au | Monash University
>Phone: (613) 573 2181                 | Australia


Jason W. Conaway
Newsgroups: comp.human-factors
From: morgan@xerox.jts.com (Morgan Jones )
Subject: Re: Knobs are better than sliders
Organization: /home/morgan/.organization
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 16:04:29 GMT

In article <1hZ33V#82f0tg2jvsRT1BGbkM9jBSCw=esr@snark.thyrsus.com> esr@snark.thyrsus.com (Eric S. Raymond) writes:

   Proposed: Knobs are better than sliders

   Argument: Human beings have much better control of (and
   proprioceptive memory for) wrist rotations than they do for arm
   movements.

   Evidence: human being routinely perform and remember rotary motions down to
   a degree or so of precision *without looking at the knob*.  Corresponding
   linear motions (on a scale of a millimeter or less) don't seem to be
   repeatable without visual feedback.

A very important consideration left out in this argument is that of
familiarity.  From birth we deal with rotary devices: door knobs,
water taps, and radio and television controls to name a few.  In
contrast, most people would probably be hard pressed to come up with
an example of a linear control.

So even if linear linear controls were more natural for people to
operate, most people would probably be better at rotary ones simply
because they've used them so much.
-- 
Morgan Jones    -    morgan@jts.com
Newsgroups: comp.human-factors
From: markham@cadence.com (Jeff Markham)
Subject: QUESTION: Noun->Verb Paradigm
Reply-To: markham@cadence.com
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Distribution: comp.human-factors
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 05:25:16 GMT

Hi,
 Here's a quick question ( hopefully ) ..
do any of you know of any commercially 
available software that allows for
simulataneous Noun->Verb and Verb->Noun
operation? (e.g. "Select Box, Move" and/or
"Move, Select Box").

If so ... please send EMAIL to:
usability@cadence.com

We're trying to do some research for a paper ..
so your help is greatly appreciated ... if you
know of any research into this .. that would be
cool too!

Jeff Markham
Deanna McCusker
Newsgroups: comp.human-factors
From: S_TITZ@iravcl.ira.uka.de (Olaf Titz)
Subject: Re: Knobs are better than sliders
Organization: Fachschaft Informatik, Uni Karlsruhe
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 13:56:27 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.23

In <1hZ33V#82f0tg2jvsRT1BGbkM9jBSCw=esr@snark.thyrsus.com> esr@snark.thyrsus.com writes:

>  Proposed: Knobs are better than sliders
...
>  Evidence: human being routinely perform and remember rotary motions down to
>  a degree or so of precision *without looking at the knob*.  Corresponding
>  linear motions (on a scale of a millimeter or less) don't seem to be
>  repeatable without visual feedback.

Agreed. Just another observation from the world of electronic
appliances: I've always thought slider controls (on TV or audio
equipment, or the like) to be inferior to knobs for a completely
different reason: the electronic and mechanical quality of sliders is
mostly much lower than for turning devices, maybe because they are
more complicated to manufacture.

>  Given the heavy commitment of modern GUI designers to the mouse, it's not
>  at all clear how we can use this insight.  But I thought it was worth raising.

The success story of the mouse is that with a mouse, you make
movements of the arm that are intuitively connected to the effect (to
move the cursor upper left, you have to move your hand upper left).
The mouse is like the knob in your example. And it is convenient to
use, compared to even 'more intuitive' things like the ill-fated touch
screen. To use a joystick for cursor positioning has been tried more
than once, but proven that it is undesirable compared to a mouse.

An aside: I have nothing against GUIs but my experience shows that it
can be extremely inconvenient if you are forced to use the mouse.
Every function should be reachable via the keyboard *too*, as the
permanent 'hopping' of the right hand between keyboard and mouse is
even more undesirable than the ability to 'save a few keystrokes'.
This is a thing not planned in nature's design, too.

MfG,
        Olaf
-- 
Olaf Titz - comp.sc.student - Univ of Karlsruhe - s_titz@iravcl.ira.uka.de -
uknf@dkauni2.bitnet - praetorius@irc - +49-721-60439 - did i forget something?
Der gr"une Punkt ist halt genauso sinnvoll wie ne T"UV-Plakette
 auf nem Schrotthaufen. - Thomas Volkmar Worm
From: bubba@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Gary Beason)
Newsgroups: comp.human-factors
Subject: Re: Knobs are better than sliders
Date: 28 Aug 92 05:44:38 GMT
Organization: Purdue University

In article <2568@tau-ceti.isc-br.com> jimc@tau-ceti.isc-br.com (Jim Cathey) writes:

>
>I don't like the current trend towards sliders and push-for-up
>push-for-down buttons for car controls.  Gimme knobs... 
>
>For something coarse (heavy) like a gear shift, a linear control really
>makes a lot of sense.  You can get some muscle behind it.

I'm not sure what muscle has to do with gear shifts--why would you
want muscle?  The Edsel and the Rambler both had push button gears
(though there may have been other cars with 'em).  But the buttons
were on the lefthand side (a problem even for lefties because of the
cramped space on that side of the dash).  Does anyone know why push
button gears were phased out?  A maintenance or lifespan problem?

The knobs-and-sliders (does that include White Castle 'sliders'?)
argument ruins into problems when you consider something like
recording equipment--particularly multi-track recorders.  Sliders are
used for the volume control while knobs control reverb, tone, etc.
Some sliders on such equipment are very nice; Aleisis for example
manufactures some really nice feeling sliders, easy to manipulate.
(Many sliders tend to stick.)  

Now, one advantage of sliders for recording is that the operator can
more easily mark (say with a piece of tape with writing out to the
side) alternative levels.  Knobs  don't allow such easy marking
(although using a notebook is an idea).

Gary Beason
bubba@mace.cc.purdue.edu
Newsgroups: comp.human-factors
From: jaime_guerrero@afs.com
Subject: Re: Knobs are better than sliders
Reply-To: jaime_guerrero@afs.com
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 14:26:15 GMT

In comp.human-factors article <1992Aug27.055252.28402@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>  
you wrote:
|  From a perfunctory chat with the nearest hardware person it seems that
|  the mouse has three internal sensors for tracking the movement of the 
|  ball so the raw data is available to determine rotation.  I was also 
|  told that the mouse movement data ultimately delivered by the driver 
|  is limited to XY coordinate changes.  
|  
|  Now in order to do this either the mouse itself or (more likely) the 
|  driver has to be stripping the rotational information out of the data 
|  delivered by the three sensors.
|  
|  Can anyone comment as to where this mapping occurs and, if it is in 
|  the driver, are there any standards (and drivers) which do extract and 
|  deliver the rotational data?
|  
|  ...deleted...
|  
|  Stephen Ransom                        | Department of Software Development
|  Telnet: ransom@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au | Monash University
|  Phone: (613) 573 2181                 | Australia

There are only TWO sensors in a mouse (unless it is a 3-D mouse!) This is how  
a mouse works:

The ball turns two rollers, one for each axis.  Each roller is attached to its  
own incremental encoder.

An incremental encoder has an internal "chopper" wheel that causes two sensors  
to generate pulses as the wheel turns. In some cases, the sensors are  
photocells with opposing LEDs and the chopper wheel is a perforated disk.  In  
other cases, the sensors are spring contacts touching the chopper wheel which  
has a pattern of copper etched onto it to make and break the circuit between  
the contacts.  The two sensors are positioned so that when the chopper wheel  
is turning steadily, the output of the sensors are square waves, out of phase  
by 90 degrees:
                 ___     ___
Sensor A     ___|   |___|   |___ 
               ___     ___     _
Sensor B     _|   |___|   |___|

The output of the two encoders' two sensors are processed by quadrature  
decoder circuits which determine movement and direction of the axis by  
examining the current and last state of the A and B sensor signals.  Software  
in the driver can do further processing to add accelleration compensation.

The signals and processing of information for the two axes remain independent.

-----

Regarding my previous post about digital knobs for computer user interfaces:

A poor man's interface for digital knobs on a PC or workstation replaces the  
(non-serial) mouse encoders with two incremental encoders, mounted on a panel  
or box with two nice big knobs, and exploit the built-in hardware and software  
for ease and low cost.  This is how I conducted my experimentation with  
digital knob user interfaces.

--
Jaime F. Guerrero                              "How well do we use
Anderson Financial Systems, Inc.                The freedom to choose
Springhouse, PA, USA                            The illusions we create?"
jaime@afs.com          [NeXTmail accepted]      -Timbuk 3
Newsgroups: comp.human-factors
From: jon@afs.com (Jonathan Hendry)
Subject: Re: GUIs Considered Harmful
Distribution: USA
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 20:10:49 GMT

In article <1992Aug28.113502.24092@walter.cray.com> toma@romulus.cray.com  
(Thomas Arneberg) writes:
>In article <17j149INNi9r@stanley.cis.Brown.EDU> plutchak@pilsner.geo.brown.edu  
(Joe Six-pack) writes:
>>
>>How does a CLI person know how to do common things
>>like file copying, renaming, moving, etc?  I *still* can't remember
>>whether dragging & dropping a file icon between directory windows
>>on the Macintosh will do a move or a copy, and have trouble remembering
>>what bizarre key/mouse combinations it takes to do "the other one."
>>At least with VMS and Unix you have 'HELP' and 'man' if you forget
>>how to, for example, get confirmations on file deletion. [...]
>>--
>>Joel Plutchak, Research Programmer/Analyst
>
>Try looking at the menus. It's easier to select from a list of multiple 
>choices than to pick a command from out of the air. If you want to do
>things FASTER, then you can start using keyboard shortcuts.
>
>For a beginner, what good does a man page do if you don't remember whether
>the command is "rename," "change_name," "move," etc.
>
>Another thing that long-time users forget is that many new users cannot 
>type very well, but everyone can point and click. 
>

I agree with Thomas. Along that line, think of this situation.

Set someone who doesn't know UNIX in front of a CLI unix box. (Say, a NeXT  
booted single-user--no GUI). Set someone who has never used a mac in front of a  
NeXT w/ GUI (or a mac). Tell them to open a file. The Unix person doesn't have  
a list of commands in front of them. The GUI person has not only the commands,  
but the file directories easily accessible. The Unix person types "open" and  
return. Nothing happens. (at least on the Next OS) it just waits. Remember,  
they don't know about man pages. Even if they do know man, they may not know cd  
or ls, so they can't find anything to open. The GUI person at least stands a  
good chance of clicking on something, seeing a menu, and realizing that's what  
you do. Click on a menu, select open, file opens, done.

--
Jonathan Hendry  Anderson Financial Systems
jon@afs.com  (Nextmail Welcome!) or hendryjw@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu
From: friday@netcom.com (Carol Anne Ogdin)
Newsgroups: comp.human-factors
Subject: Re: I can't take this anymore
Date: 3 Sep 92 18:30:43 GMT
Article-I.D.: netcom.9xln8gm.friday
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

In <1992Sep3.165730.11936@netlabs.com> lwall@netlabs.com (Larry Wall) writes:


>You can't talk about THAT kind of human-factors engineering in this newsgroup!
>It might give people the idea that software geeks are human too.  Horrors.

>Larry :-) Wall
>lwall@netlabs.com

The old adage may have to be revised to:  Computers are not as nice as humans,
but nicer than programmers  :-)
-- 
---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---
    - Friday -                   "If a miracle happens in your vicinity--
      friday@well.sf.ca.us                            take credit for it!"
      (Carol Anne Ogdin)
Newsgroups: comp.human-factors,comp.groupware,comp.cog-eng
From: cat@iedv7.acd.com ( Chris Teegarden (ICCT))
Subject: FAQ and references
Summary: Request for them.
Keywords: FAQ,reference
Organization: Applied Computing Devices, Inc., Terre Haute IN
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 18:52:19 GMT

Hello.  I am just getting started on learning about good user interface
design for software.  I would appreciate any advice on information sources
I can get.  Could anyone email me info on journals, texts, newsletters,
conferences, and authors that they find useful in this area?

If this group has a FAQ, I would appreciate it very much if someone could
email it to me.  Our site has dialup-only access to the net so I can only
work with ftp sites that handle mail requests.

Please direct all replies to cat@acd4.acd.com.  Our news software sometimes
uses the wrong address in the "From:" field.  I will summarize the collected
information for the group if anyone is interested.

Thanks in advance.

-- Chris (cat@acd4.acd.com)
Newsgroups: comp.human-factors
From: bq276@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michael Seese)
Subject: Re: Knobs are better than sliders
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 92 12:36:36 GMT


I answered Debbie's original query on this subject via e-mail,
but I meant to post it, so I'll repeat it in abbreviated form.
After having read Norman's book ``The Design of Everyday Things,''
(which I'm so most, if not all of you have read), the logical
answer seems to be, ``Use a knob, or a slider, or whatever works
best.''  The best design is one that is inherently obvious, and 
needs no explanation to use. Back to the shower discussion, a 
friend of mine, who was reading over my shoulder, said he would
like to see the water temperature controlled with foot pedals.

Food for thought.
-- 

Michael Seese
Cleveland, OH (and darned happy to be here)