HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: eyvind@Lise.Unit.NO (Eyvind Bernhardsen)
Subject: Re: Sierra is gone
Organization: Norwegian Institute of Technology
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 11:51:54 GMT

In article <TIMO.JANTUNEN.92Nov16104435@lesti.hut.fi>, Timo.Jantunen@hut.fi (Timo Jantunen) writes:
 > In article <1992Nov16.014626.6126@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu> elm4@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (Ed Mackey) writes:
 > 
 > From what I know, most of Sierra programs are made (mostly) in C (or other
 > high level language), because it cuts down coding time (and time is money).
 > It is fast enough in 386, but in 68000... And doing assembly code and
 > using blitter etc. would take much time. And because Amiga games don't have
 > so big markets (yeah, many Amigas sold, but much more PCs, most of which
 > aren't used for playing but still), and piracy is lowering sales.

Nix.  Sierra games use a proprietary language known as SCI, the Sierra Creative
Interpreter, where Interpreter is the operative word.  You're right about the
386-68000, but the REAL problem is that it isn't even WELL ported...

 > >>and moan if the Amiga version is one color or one pixel short of the PC
 > >And why should it be one pixel short, when it could be worlds smoother
 > >and better?
 > 
 > Again, Sierra thinks it's not worth it. To get better graphics is difficult,
 > because most of them is digitized. VGA uses 256/256K, Amiga 32-64/4K(?) colors.
 > (HAM is probably too difficult). Using blitter would speed up graphics,
 > but again, it would take coding and...

Exactly.  BUT it didn't stop LFL...

 > >>version. You can't blame them for not wanting to bother with a small group
 > >A small group bought more than 3 million Amigas?
 > 
 > And how many of them _buys_ games regulary?
 > Compared to them who use pirated versions?
 > 
 > Disclaimer: Don't flame me, kill pirates (for a start).

Piracy is NOT the problem here.  The problem is a PC-oriented company not willing
to expend the extra effort to make good programs on another platform.

 > Timo Jantunen _______________________________________  timo.jantunen@hut.fi

-Eyvind

-- 
     //|                             | DISCLAIMER: I don't HAVE opinions.
    // |                             | I just repeat what everyone else says!
\\ //--|miga: There can be only one. |
 \X/   |         eyvind@lise.unit.no | Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!  Ackpth!
Organization: Junior, Math/Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.games
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 23:40:50 -0500 
From: Sun Kun Kim <kimski+@CMU.EDU>
Subject: Tearaway Thomas...

Well, Sonic Killer we wanted, and Sonic Killer we got.  Tearaway Thomas
has a chance to claim this fame.  The game play is incredibly fast and
the graphics are quite pleasing to look at(not to mention the good sound
track)... MUCH BETTER THAN ZOOL, IMHO.  Go check it out.  It runs on my
machine(2.04 rom B2000 w/3megs RAM) fine(Boot it in PAL mode, if you
have an NTSC machine).  If you just let the demo go, it will start
playing the levels(2 of them included in the demo) by itself... so that
you can see its features without having to figure out how to play. 
Whoever uploaded this, THANKS!!  I enjoyed it... now I want to buy it!! 
Anyone know the release date??

If you liked ZOOL, go check out Tearaway Thomas.

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\ Alexander Sun Kim               e-mail: sk2x+@andrew.cmu.edu /
/ School of Computer Science              kimski+@cmu.edu      \
\ Carnegie Mellon University              sunk@ohm.ece.cmu.edu /
/                                                              \
\ Co-Editor, The Scrawl - A Newsletter for Christian Students. /
/   "And whatever you do, do it all in the name of the Lord"   \
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
(.sig file version 3.1a)

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.games
From: gloomboy@netcom.com (Chris Yaryan)
Subject: Testing post
Followup-To: None 
Summary: Testing post 
Keywords: Test 
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 22:53:35 GMT

Testing, testing, 1, 2, 3...
From: tblanchot@vnet.ibm.com (Thierry BLANCHOT)
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 18:09:57 FWT
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.games
Subject: A1200
Reply-To: tblanchot@vnet.ibm.com
Organization: IBM
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views only|
News-Software: Usenet 3.0

Could some kind (and lucky) soul already owning a 1200 run AIBB on
it and post the results here? This would be very interesting for all
the people who are longing for it. Will those slooooww 3D games
on the 500 be REALLY more playable?

**********************************************************************
*    Let's try to keep the Amiga floating over the Pea Sea....       *
**********************************************************************
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.games
From: davidh@swbatl.sbc.com (Dave Howarth 5-9085)
Subject: Re: Perfect General
Organization: Southwestern Bell
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 16:01:21 GMT

> 
> 
>   PS.  What I'd really like to see though, is a version of the game that has
>        specific weapons in it.  So, instead of having just a heavy tank, I
>        could choose to have a King Tiger, or a JS-III.  Imagine, combining the
>        weapons of Kampfgruppe with the interface and graphics of The Perfect
>        General.  Wow.
> 
I second this motion. Have you heard whether an Amiga port is in the works? I
saw an earlier post stating QQP is out of the Amiga market. I hope this is not
true!!  By the way, if you don't have the WWII scenario disk, it is WELL worth
the money. Since I bought it, I never play the original scenarios.

> '>Gregg Giles (Dynamix, Inc.)                     Willy Beamish Development Team
-- 
   /\   David Howarth                   \  davidh@swbatl.sbc.com      \
  / /\   SWB Technology Resources Inc.   \  			       \
 / / /\   1010 Pine, Rm 635               \			        \ 
/ / / /\   St. Louis,  MO. 63101           \  				 \
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.games
From: hgbokhor@cs.ruu.nl (Henk van Bokhorst)
Subject: Monkey II part II help wanted
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 10:54:45 GMT
Organization: Utrecht University, Dept. of Computer Science
Keywords: map, crypt, open


Hi there,

I got three pieces of the map:
-bought one,
-'got' one from Elaine
-found one (including a hand)

but I can't find the fourt piece of the map.
I think the piece belongs to Rapp Scallion, and I've seen on the
news you have to open the crypt to find where he lies.
But I don't know how to open the crypt.
Does anyone know how to open it?

Thanks in advance,

Henk (hgbokhor@cs.ruu.nl).
From: 2ftuclay@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.games
Subject: Re: U.S.A. loosing the edge in math? (Math Reflex Test)
Date: 21 Nov 92 14:24:40 CST
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services



We seem to be "loosing" our grammar abilities too. ;-)
From: jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz (John Bickers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.games
Subject: Re: Elite: timeless classic or nostalgia piece?
 icsson.se><OAHVENLA.92Nov6174417@lk-hp-5.hut.fi><jbickers.0hxu@templar.actrix.
 gen.nz> <TURNER.92Nov11153159@blob.hut.fi> <jbickers.0ieq@templar.actrix.gen.nz>
 <1992Nov14.122458.29563@abo.fi>
Date: 16 Nov 92 10:53:23 PST
Organization: TAP

Quoted from <1992Nov14.122458.29563@abo.fi> by AGRANHOLM@finabo.abo.fi ():
> In <jbickers.0ieq@templar.actrix.gen.nz> jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz writes:
> 
> >     mistaken, though I'm interested to know how you guys know for
> >     sure that Braben and Bell did the C=64 version.
> 
> If I'm not completely mistaken, their names were in the credits.
> Something like that would make me quite sure of it anyway...

    That's true as far as I remember too, but I always thought that
    was just to show who the creators of the game were, while the
    porters went anonymous... silly me, eh? :)
--
*** John Bickers, TAP.                   jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz ***
***    "Radioactivity - It's in the air, for you and me" - Kraftwerk    ***
From: mneylon@jupiter.cse.utoledo.edu (Michael Neylon)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.games
Subject: Re: Lemmings 2 demo competition on Usenet
Date: 15 Nov 92 21:13:54 GMT
Article-I.D.: uoft02.1992Nov15.161355.18

crystal@glia.biostr.washington.edu (Crystal) writes:
: In <1992Nov14.055458.3383@cs.uoregon.edu> keith@majestix.cs.uoregon.edu (Keith Steiger) writes:
: 
: >So, after much practice, I have just gotten my "perfect score".  It wouldn't
: >surprise me too much if there were better strategies than mine, but I got
: >through without making mistakes in the execution of the strategies I have.
: 
: >	Level 1: Saved all 50 lemmings.  This one's been discussed enough.
: >	Level 2: Saved 20 lemmings.  The first 10 are easy....
: >	Level 3: Saved 20 lemmings.  This is easy--can more be saved?
: 
: >I ended up with a total score of 23,846.
: 
: >If anyone can do any better, I want to know how it's done.
: 
: >	Keith Steiger
: >	"I think I preferred controlling only the lemmings themselves."
: 
: Well, there are more than 20 lemmings on Level 2, and I have saved ALL of
: them. (Polar level - I forget the total number, but it is close to 50.)
: oops! I take that back, ONE had to be lost to the cause...
Tsk tsk!  I can save all 50 on level 2!!

i guess i can explain below..... *spoilers*

Make the first lemming a skier, the second a player (or whatever the music
one is...) about 1/2 down the slope.  Wait for the skier to get to the plane
above the exit.  As he returns to the left, have him scoop out at the far
left of the it.  This should get him down to the bottom level on the left.
Let him get in the pit, fill it up, and thats it.  Have one of the dancing
lemmings jump into the lowest part of the hill, blow him up twice, and
he should hit the ledge before dropping all the way to bottom.  Cause the
music guy to quite (jump or throw), and wait for all the lemmings to drop.
Back to the plane to the right, scoop out the way to the exit, and therefore,
you save all 50.

As for the others, I COULD probably get all on level 1, just have to limit
the area that they can build in....Level 3 i have ideas but havent done them
yet.
-- 
Michael Neylon   aka Masem the Great and Almighty Thermodynamics GOD!
      //         | Senior, Chemical Engineering, Univ. of Toledo
  \\ // Only the |   Summer Intern, NASA Lewis Research Center
\  \X/   AMIGA!  |         mneylon@jupiter.cse.utoledo.edu           /
From: crystal@glia.biostr.washington.edu (Crystal)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.games
Subject: Re: Lemmings 2 demo competition on Usenet
Keywords: lemmings tribes
Date: 16 Nov 92 02:16:30 GMT
Article-I.D.: glia.crystal.721880190
Organization: University of Washington

In <crystal.721764772@glia> crystal@glia.biostr.washington.edu (Crystal) writes:

>In <1992Nov14.055458.3383@cs.uoregon.edu> keith@majestix.cs.uoregon.edu (Keith Steiger) writes:

>>So, after much practice, I have just gotten my "perfect score".  It wouldn't
>>surprise me too much if there were better strategies than mine, but I got
>>through without making mistakes in the execution of the strategies I have.

>>	Level 1: Saved all 50 lemmings.  This one's been discussed enough.
>>	Level 2: Saved 20 lemmings.  The first 10 are easy....
>>	Level 3: Saved 20 lemmings.  This is easy--can more be saved?

>>I ended up with a total score of 23,846.

>>If anyone can do any better, I want to know how it's done.

>>	Keith Steiger
>>	"I think I preferred controlling only the lemmings themselves."

Ok, Keith, I got 27,806 and I did a *poor* job on the first level! :<
(keeps timing out on me...I'll get it down YET!)

>Well, there are more than 20 lemmings on Level 2, and I have saved ALL of
>them. (Polar level - I forget the total number, but it is close to 50.)
>oops! I take that back, ONE had to be lost to the cause...

I have an update here:  There ARE 50, and ALL of them can be saved.  I was
getting bugged by only saving 49 and I *knew* I hadn't killed any - until
I started counting them (suspecting a bug) and discovered that one of the
50 will disappear on you if you are not paying attention!

Also, I wonder if this "competition" idea is really feasible?  I noticed
that the score varied for those 49 lemmings.  I got scores of 12816, 12917,
12927, and 12935 for saving the same number of lemmings in the polar region.
I suspect the score is a reflection of how long it takes you as well as
how many you save.  So scoring a competition could get frustrating.  Just
an observation here.

>Level 3, the numbers of lemmings vary from 1 to 38 (so far...) So far I have
>saved *almost* all of those that appear here. Probably the 20, I wasn't
>paying attention much to the scores or numbers.  Scores aren't as important
>as the strategy involved.   (Actually, the only score I remember is my
>highest in real-life bowling...otherwise, I basically ignore scores.)

Has anyone seen MORE than 38 lemmings on this level?  So far, I have only  
been able to save 20.  Has anyone saved more?  

Again, due to the randomness of the number of lemmings on this level, a
competition would be difficult.  (Unless the number of lemmings is related
to your score on the previous levels?  So far I haven't seen any pattern, and
I *love* looking for patterns! ;> )

Anyway, we now know that it is possible to save everybody on the first
2 levels - so, how about the third?  Anyone?? :>

>Crystal
>  ;>

I *definitely* want this game!  To heck with non-HD installable - I have
my priorities! *laugh*

Crystal, yet again! 
  ;>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.games
From: cdunn@esk.compserv.utas.edu.au (Colin Dunn)
Subject: Re: eobII (eye of the beholder II)
Organization: University of Tasmania at Launceston
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 05:27:13 GMT

In article <lgbkunINNmdt@saltillo.cs.utexas.edu>, stephen@cs.utexas.edu (Stephen Craig Mautner) writes:
>
>HELP! I am stuck in eye of the beholder II.
>I have gone through all three levels of the dungeon, as well 
>as the first level of the temple, and I cannot find what I
>need to do.  On the first temple level, I cannot get into one
>room with a large circular key-hole, and I cannot get past
>the lips which say "none can pass without the mark of darkmoon".
>
>The only thing I thought of was that the mark of darkmoon is 
>behind the door I cannot get into, and the Key must be 
>somewhere in the dungeon.  I went back throught the dungeon 
>again, but I still cannot find a key to fit.
>
>I printed out an ascii version of the maps for the game, and
>I seem to have been into every room of the dungeon.
>Am I just missing something obvious or what?
>
>thanks
>
>stephen
>
You have to go to the room where you entered the temple, and you will find
a wall with some clouds on it. Blow all four of the horns that you got in the
dungeon levels (you did get them didn't you?) and the wall should disappear.
Your way is clear to the next level.

Colin.
-- 
-----------------------------------------\/-------------------------------------
..And remember, if you put a Tarantula  ||   Quote: Doug Anthony All Stars!
in your mouth and staple your lips shut, ||         Colin Dunn - EMail:
you're a flamin' idiot! - D.A.A.S.       /\  cdunn@pieman.compserv.utas.edu.au
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.games,rec.games.misc
From: funky@nevada.edu (MATTHEW KAPHAN)
Subject: Another World
Originator: funky@redrock.nevada.edu
Organization: University of Nevada System Computing Services
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 20:44:03 GMT

  I have recently begun trying to play this game again, Another WOrld.
I'm at the part where you're in the caverns and there are falling rocks
that you must dodge.  I'm not sure how to proceed from this area.  I'm
not sure whether to shoot the cavern that holds the water and flood the
area or go through the boulders first.  Someone please walk me through
this. tHanks.


-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew Kaphan                                        funky@redrock.nevada.edu
                    -What can I say in only 4 lines?-
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.games
From: charlet@hubcap.clemson.edu (Charles E "Rick" Taylor IV)
Subject: Re: Sierra is gone
Organization: Clemson University
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 14:47:12 GMT

Timo.Jantunen@hut.fi (Timo Jantunen) writes:

>>>and moan if the Amiga version is one color or one pixel short of the PC
>>And why should it be one pixel short, when it could be worlds smoother
>>and better?

>Again, Sierra thinks it's not worth it. To get better graphics is difficult,
>because most of them is digitized. VGA uses 256/256K, Amiga 32-64/4K(?) colors.
>(HAM is probably too difficult). Using blitter would speed up graphics,
>but again, it would take coding and...

AGA can use 256 colors ... so that's no excuse, because the 1200 is out in
G Br and in the US soon.

>>>version. You can't blame them for not wanting to bother with a small group
>>A small group bought more than 3 million Amigas?
>And how many of them _buys_ games regulary?
>Compared to them who use pirated versions?

How many IBM users you know *buy* all there games?  More than 10%?  (My point
is that piracy is perhaps *more* rampant in the PC world.)

-- 
+ Rick __     + EMAIL:charlet@hubcap.clemson.edu +   //\          + /|\ It's +
|      /aylor | IRC  : Tomalek / The Romulan     | \X/--\miga 500 |  J rainy |
+-------------+----------------------------------+----------------+----------+
+ "Every Girl Already Has A Boyfriend" --- Murphy's Law Of Dating...         +
From: jow@hcast.franken.de (Juergen Weinelt)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.games
Subject: Re:  Super Mario equivalent
Date: 22 Nov 92 19:45:20 GMT
Reply-To: jow@sun.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de
Organization: None at all

In article <19921118.080036.115@almaden.ibm.com> tblanchot@vnet.ibm.com (Thierry BLANCHOT) writes:
>The closest games I know on the Amiga are the oldies but goldies
>"Great Giana Sisters" and its follow up "Hard'n Heavy". However,
>there are many other platform games on the Amy with a "Mario"
>flavour..

Huh? In what way was Hard'n Heavy a "followup" to Gianna Sisters?!?

BTW, I think The Great Gianna Sisters is no longer available (had to
be withdrawn because of copyright/look&feel issues).

-- Juergen Weinelt, Germany

  o  _         1) jow@sun.rz.uni-wuerzburg.de (preferred)
  | (_) \/\/   2) jow@hcast.adsp.sub.org
  '            3) jow@hcast.franken.de
From: ggiles@cie.uoregon.edu (Gregg Giles)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.games
Subject: Re: Sierra is gone
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:23:36 GMT
Article-I.D.: pith.1egbhoINNe3t
Distribution: world
Organization: University of Oregon Campus Information Exchange
NNTP-Posting-Host: cie.uoregon.edu

In article <Andy.0314@Birdland.UUCP> Andy@Birdland.UUCP (Andy Patrizio) writes:
>
>Look, they don't know these chips. So why aren't Amiga programmers trying
>to get work with these companies? I see megademos floating around all over
>creation (oooh, so cool grafx!). Why don't some of these people approach
>a big game company and say "I know this machine. I can make a good port?"

   Problem: the people that program these megademos take over the machine and
program it like a game console. Ever seen a megademo multitask? I haven't, and
I've been collecting them for about five years. These guys (the demo writers)
also generally fail to follow the guidelines set forth by Commodore about
future compatibility - what once worked on an A500 with Workbench 1.2 seems to
puke on an A3000 with Workbench 2.04. There's no reason for that.
   Granted, the demo writers make some awesome stuff; I'm often tranced by it.
And some of these same people have gone out and begun to work for software
companies - in Europe. 
   In defense of Dynamix: all of our Amiga programmers (who now work on other
platforms), know assembly language, and are familiar with the custom chips.
Again, I have to put it to you folks: do you ever write the publishers whose
games you >>BUY<<, and tell them what you think about their games? If one 
doesn't tell the publisher what their product is like, they will have no reason
to want to improve it - they'll assume you like it.

-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gregg Giles (Dynamix, Inc.)                       Willy Beamish Development Team
All opinions expressed are my own.                      (MS-DOS CD-ROM, Sega-CD)
ggiles@cie.uoregon.edu, BIX: ggiles                   Author of DiskInfo, ZSound
From: dano@wet.UUCP (Daniel Osher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.games
Subject: Re: U.S.A. loosing the edge in math? (Math Reflex Test)
Date: 24 Nov 92 01:08:56 GMT
Organization: Wetware Diversions, San Francisco

Hmmm.  Considering the spelling of the word "losing" by a persumably
college educated person, perhaps the emphasis of this message is
misplaced?  :)
From: ggiles@cie.uoregon.edu (Gregg Giles)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.games
Subject: Re: Sierra is gone
Date: 17 Nov 92 15:12:19 GMT
Article-I.D.: pith.1eb24jINNc8p
Organization: University of Oregon Campus Information Exchange
NNTP-Posting-Host: cie.uoregon.edu

In article <1992Nov16.014626.6126@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu> elm4@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (Ed Mackey) writes:
>
>Stellar 7.  A game by Dynamix (child company of Sierra itself!) that was
>originally available for IBM and then ported to Amiga.  A lot of Amiga users
>like it.  

   I was informed the other day that Stellar 7 first appeared on the Apple ][.
It was also made available (apparently) for the C64 before it made it to the
IBM-PC. But you're right in that a lot of Amiga users seem to like it.

-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gregg Giles (Dynamix, Inc.)                       Willy Beamish Development Team
All opinions expressed are my own.                      (MS-DOS CD-ROM, Sega-CD)
ggiles@cie.uoregon.edu, BIX: ggiles                   Author of DiskInfo, ZSound
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.games
From: gspall@cantor.math.uwaterloo.ca (Greg Spall)
Subject: Re: Turrican 3 SEU level, was Re: Shoot Em Up's
Keywords: Turrican PAL
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 01:29:50 GMT

In article <1992Nov19.052048.14282@rmece49.upr.clu.edu>, raist@rmece02.upr.clu.edu (Ricardo Hernandez) writes:
> In article <1992Nov17.040806.13586@cs.uoregon.edu>, keith@majestix.cs.uoregon.edu (Keith Steiger) writes:
> |> In article <Bxu0rv.6C0@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> gspall@mobius01.math.uwaterloo.ca (Greg Spall) writes:
> |> >Just a quick question about Turrican II....
> |> >I have it, and have finished it several times, LOVED IT... but somethings a
> |> >bit mucked up with my copy, and it crashes after the guy runs of the side of
> |> >the screen after killing the end boss.  Is there an end screen?? and if so,
> |> >what happens??  just curious, that's all...   :-)
> |> 
> |> That happened with my copy, too.  I eventually decided--with much trepidation--
> |> to solve the game AGAIN in PAL mode to see if it did anything differently.
> |> 
> |> Frighteningly enough, it does show the ending if you're in PAL mode.  I don't
> |> remember it hardly at all, though.
> |> 
> |> 	Keith Steiger
> |> 	"Why do I remember Turrican's ending better than Turrican II's?"
> 
> 
>   AHA! THE SAME HAPPENED to me!  I was quite p*ssed *ff when this happended!
> 
>   QUESTION:  HOW DO YOU RUN TURRICAN II ON PAL, ON AN NTSC MACHINE?
> 
>   ANY utility that can be used?  I have the Super Agnus... so maybe...
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>   Raist   // Amiga 500, 38Mhz Special MegaMidget Racer
>         \X/  Avid user of AmigaVision, sending mail from Mayaguez, Puerto Rico 
> ---------
>            "If the PC or Mac continues to be the standard,
>             the SkyNet will never be built." - OUCH! were not my words!
> 

Yes, you'll probably need a utility.. I don't any other way to do it... :-(


					The Ditto