From: yt1@eng.cam.ac.uk (Y. Tremblay)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd
Subject: Re: Experience points for roleplaying (was Re: Levels )
Date: 16 Aug 92 10:18:50 GMT
Organization: Cambridge University Engineering Department, UK

In article <Bt1Er3.B5J@acsu.buffalo.edu> swann@acsu.buffalo.edu (Stephen Swann) writes:
>In article <1992Aug14.114821.14031@eng.cam.ac.uk> yt1@eng.cam.ac.uk (Y. Tremblay) writes:
SS>> Stephen Swann wrote:
SS>>Part of the reason they've advanced so slowly is that an awful lot 
SS>>of their time is spent pursuing "sub-plots" in my campaign.  This
SS>>involves lots of roleplaying, but doesn't earn them any adventuring
SS>>experience points - although it does gain them valuable information,
SS>>and generally make their lives more interesting and varied.
>>
>>    But, why don't you give any experience for roleplaying, solving a 
>>plot ?  
>
>Because that increases their "wiliness", their "knowlege", and their
>"adventuring experience", but won't make them any better able to 
>swing a sword / cast a spell.  The benefit they get from solving a
>plot is in becoming better players, not in their characters' getting
>more hit points.
>
>>If it is what you want your player to do, then you should give
>>them something for doing it.  
>
>I think that what they get out of it is a highly enjoyable game, where 
>they get to play their characters to the fullest, rather than just
>concentrating on conflicts all the time.  

   OK, this one I give it to you.  I agree that they get a more enjoyable
game.  So, they shouldn't need any other award to do so.  But isn't it a 
bit utopic ?  

>
>As for "tangible" reward (if you don't consider enjoyment and satisfaction
>in playing to be tangible rewards), then there's the fact that they learn
>lots of valuable information and gain helpful allies, which make them much
>more "powerful", in the sense of being knowledgeable and having lots of
>influence and political leverage.  Good information can be just as powerful
>a weapon as a +5 flaming sword.

   However, this logic can be applied for combat too.  If by killing Ultra-
Super-Villain they get his +5 flaming sword and all this gold.  They 
shouldn't get any experience points since they already got an reward. ?!?

>
>My characters tend to spend time doing what people in the real world
>would do - they visit friends, they fall in love, they read books,
>they listen to stories, they learn to play musical instruments, they
>travel, they do all kinds of non-adventuring stuff, that serves only
>to expend the "role playing" aspects of the game, and does nothing
>to earn them money or make them better in combat.  
>
   In another article, Tom Bruno wrote :
"I always envisioned 'experience points' as a mesure of a person, not
just of his skill in the battle and spellcraft..."

   This is the way I see experience points.  Your view are more that it is
only (almost) related to fighting skills.  I agree that AD&D tends to link 
it more with combat abilities since most of the abilities of PCs are 
design for combat but what about non-weapon proficiencies or thief skills.
In another hand, I think characters are suppose to practice during their 
free time and so become better. (Isn't it written somewhere with when they 
sharpen swords, etc.)  Some systems give points for that (e.g. ArsM)  (Here
we are risking to start a discussion about skill vs class/level based) Even
if it is not explicitly stated in *D&D, it can justify the fact that their
THAC0 improve even when they just use NWP.  They probably have a lot more
free time to practice it than they have during a "dungeon crawl" to practice
new NWP.  Do you give XPs to a mage that use ESP to gather information ?
By doing so, he certainly learn how to better read minds !?


>>If (in "real life" (tm)) a company offer me a job intellectually
>>interesting but without any salary, I say them: "f***".  I don't want
>>to work in a factory but I want decent wage.  
>
>Well, suppose you could make all the money you needed freelancing as
>an independant contractor, and could have the rest of your time free
>to do whatever struck your fancy - like exploring caves, reading
>Homer, sailing around the world, visiting Paris, or whatever floats
>your boat?  That's analogous to what my players are doing.  They
>do plenty of adventuring, but they actually spend -more- time 
>roleplaying personal stuff about their characters.

   Given that you say they get up a level only every 7-8 months, I would
say they are almost starving of XP.  (Like if as an independant contractor
I get only $1000 a year and go around the world).  Maybe they should think 
about working a bit more :-)  Well, depends of everyone needs (or taste)
one can live with four thousands bucks... as long as one's never known more...

>
>>The way you give experience points (IMHO) encourage hack'n slash since
>>it is the only way to get a concrete award.  But maybe you have
>>exceptional players...
>
>Maybe I'm spoiled, and I -do- just have incredible players, who really

   Can you lent me a few ones ?

>do care more about roleplaying than about powergaming.  I once just
>-forgot- to give them experience points for killing a "true" dragon
>(a beast that makes a monster manual dragon look like a jackrabbit).

   Are you talking of 1st or 2nd edition dragons ?  Unless you give the
party a dragonlance (or two...), a 2nd edition middle aged dragon will
kill most of the party up to 8-9th level and 6 characters _if_ played
intelligently.  If it is not enough, just put a very old red one...
E-mail me a description if you can. 

BTW Steve, part of the quotations were by Sea Wasp, you should have
left his name in the heading. (no offense intended)
>-- 
>Steve Swann                 |    Speak to me in many voices; make
>swann@acsu.buffalo.edu      |      them all sound like one...  -BOC

Yannick
yt1@eng.cam.ac.uk