From: goid@zooid.guild.org (Will Steeves)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Basic Instinct Denied
Date: 29 Aug 92 06:47:25 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch) writes...
GF> gcf@panix.COM (Gordon Fitch) writes...
GF> [ Theory that homophobia and heterosexism derive from
GF> patriarchal values ]

GF> goid@zooid.guild.org (Will Steeves)
GF> [ doesn't think so....]
GF> | This is one of the many reasons why I have many problems with "theories of
GF> | patriarchy," and the fact that so many problems are being ascribed to it t
GF> | And as to the comment that there is no implication that only men are capab
GF> | of "holding patriarchal values," I think that it is *quite* apparent in th
GF> | terminology that the views are considered to be *male-ORIGINATED*, which i
GF> | why I feel that the very term "patriarchy," when used to ascribe negative
GF> | characteristics to a belief system or to a system of actions, is nothing
GF> | more than a vector for the morally bankrupt philosophy of female supremacy
GF> | and female moral supremacy. ...

GF> Apparently, Will Steeves does not believe there are such
GF> things as patriarchy, patriarchalism, or patriarchal values,


Gordon, please do not patronise me.  Your declaration "Apparently, Will
Steeves does not believe..." is somewhat akin to a member of a gang of school
children looking at the new kid on the block and saying "OOOH!  Look at HIM,
he doesn't believe what WE believe..."  Your comments, IMHO, cross the line
>from intelligent discourse into flaming.

Also, you have quoted me out of context.  What I have a problem with, is *not*
the concept that we have a large number of "white males" who rule, but that
the notion of "patriarchal theory" is being used to explain away all the
world's ills, as I have seen many a "feminist" do...  And your attribution of
heterosexism as being a "patriarchal value," ie.,  "being heterosexist means
that you think that men are better than women," goes *right* to the top of
the list.

Besides which, the fact of the situation is thus - I asked for your definition;
you gave it.  I did not agree with the way in which it was used, and *now*
you are saying that just because I believe that "patriarchy theory" is abused,
that somehow I am saying that I do not believe that there is a patriarchy of
"white males in power".  I *do* believe this to be true, and it is a situation
which must be changed to a fairer one.  (I realise that I have repeated myself
to a certain degree, but I feel that it is necessary)


GF> On the other hand, he thinks there does exist

GF> |               ... [a] morally bankrupt philosophy of female supremacy and
GF> | female moral supremacy....

Yes...and there are also people who think that men are superior to women.  I
hold these people to be no less contemptible than those who abuse "patriarchal
theory" as an academic-sounding declaration of female moral superiority.

The difference here, is that the men who think themselves better than women,
do *not* have a "nice," academic "theory" in order to wield their bigotry
with impunity.

If you *must* flame, please spare me the righteous indignation and put it
into alt.flame.  Thank you.

---
Will Steeves, goid@zooid.guild.org                      "Neil Hull is GOiD"
ZOOiD BBS, Toronto, Ontario - The Zoo Of Ids            "GOiDS Rule"
(416) 322-7876
---
 * SLMR 2.1a * Oxymoron : Politically Correct


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