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Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 21:43:36 -0400
From:         Tanya Augsburg <ilay9228@EMORYU1.CC.EMORY.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Husbands and Wives

On Wed, 30 Sep 1992, Peter.Giordano@WILLIAMS.EDU wrote:

> My wife had the same reaction to HUSBANDS AND WIVES and we were sitting quite
> close to the screen (My prefered seats; actually, we were the only two people
> in the audience which was fun) - I thought the camera work was very effective
> and challenging and although my dear wife was dizzy and nauseated she agrees -
> That one of the reasons I would not watch this film on a VCR - You just won't
> get one of the most important features of the film (it'd be like watching
> VERTIGO without the soundtrack) - Also the details in the costume and set
> design demand the big screen


Woody did it again--another filmic film--or should we say cameraly film?

Husbands and Wives was nauseating to watch--I wonder why none of the
review (on the printed page not on this list)   mentioned it.

But the film strikes the challenge:  How to watch a film one cannot watch?

IMHO, the camera reflects the mood of the characters (we could even
speculate that it does of the director as well, but I'll refrain from
making those comparisons of Allen with his character here).  The technique
(besides being trendy, copying ads) is extremely destabilizing--just like
the film's story.

spoiler  alert:












The film is about self-deception.  None of the characters are
honest--especially to their own selves.  The interviews make that
extremely apparent at the end of the movie.  You know Sally and Jack
will have more problems about their unresolvable problem--their sex life!!!
Talk about dramatic irony.

I thought it was interesting that Allen dared to show men being aggressive
(Jack bullying Sam around).

I'm tired of his indictments of Mia Farrow in his films.  She has often
played the suffering, giving, understanding, sacrificing woman in his films
--and allen has a talent of showing how selfish the behavior really is.


It is rather explicit in this film: Sally's 1st husband calls her
passive-aggressive.

Perhaps Allen is being passive aggressive by marrying Judy off to the
attractive Michael while he ends up alone (as does in Crimes and
Misdeamenors and Shadows and Fog).  Perhaps we missed the clues that
their real life relationship was deteriorating, clues which Allen provided
in his film...Maybe he secretly desires (and this film is full of neurotic
male fantasies) that she would find another man...I think Freud would
call in reaction-formation...there goes another $50,000 in psychotherapy!!


BTW, I'm so glad to know that cinema-l readers hated Terms of Endearment
as much as I did when I saw it and as much as I still do.

I do think Shirley McClaine (spelling?) was very good in Postcards From
the Edge--put then again, she played a character close to her own personality.

	Tanya in ATlanta
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Date:         Sat, 26 Sep 1992 23:48:00 EDT
From:         Peter.Giordano@WILLIAMS.EDU
Subject:      Re: Movie music?

Ray is right on the money when he praises Bernard Herrmann - He elevated
the film score to a fine art form - His score for Magnicicent Ambersons -
Vertigo, Psycho, - Just about anthing he's done can stand as wonderful
concert music, but what's truly amazing is that you can't imagine a
film scored by him with any ohter music
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Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 21:24:30 GMT
From:         HAUGHD88@IRLEARN.UCD.IE
Subject:      Romance on the Orient Express- seeking video

Hi there.

I'm trying urgently to acquire a video (for a friend) of the film
"Romance on the Orient Express"   (note : *Not* "Murder......" ).
All I know about this movie is that it starred Cheryl Ladd (of
"Charlie's Angels" fame) and was, I think, a TVM.

 I would love a copy of this in VHS/PAL, though at a pinch VHS/NTSC
 would do and I could have it converted here, in Ireland.

I will, of course, pay any and all expenses...

Please respond direct to HAUGHD88@irlearn.bitnet
From: BL.JMP@RLG.BITNET (Jennifer Porro)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.cinema-l
Subject: Meeting Venus
Date: 2 Oct 92 16:01:00 GMT
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I gotta give you this, Dick, there was sure some great lip-synching in
MEETING VENUS -- probably the best I've seen.  It really put AMERICAN
BANDSTAND to shame.

Jennifer

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Date:         Mon, 5 Oct 1992 18:56:27 -0500
From:         CDOMS@UMKCVAX1.BITNET
Subject:      Re: RE:UNFORGIVEN

When I first saw the previews for _Unforgiven_, I kept mistaking Clint's
main character, with another Western character of the name "Will Penny".

It's been too long since I've seen the "Will Penny" western.  Does
_Unforgiven_ borrow anything from that movie?

Carol Doms
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Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 10:18:15 -0500
From:         Gary Graffagnino <ACCGSG@HOFSTRA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Trivia

>From: huddle@VTTCF.CC.VT.EDU
>
[stuff deleted]
>I had read that the production of _Secret Garden_ was closing within
>6 months, but have forgotten the details why...

It closes in January if I remember right.  It wasn't that popular, and has to
compete with the likes of Miss Saigon, Guys and Dolls, Phantom, and Les
Miserables.  Too much competition.

                           ______
  Gary Graffagnino         \    /   "Look!  It Enrico Palatzzo!'
  accgsg@hofstra.bitnet     \  /
  accgsg@vaxc.hofstra.edu    \/            -Guy from the Naked Gun
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Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 10:21:00 EST
Reply-To:     ELGFROEHRER@PSUCES.BITNET
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From:         ELGFROEHRER@PSUCES.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Meeting Venus et al

                  I N T E R O F F I C E   M E M O R A N D U M

                                        Date:     30-Sep-1992 10:21am DST
                                        From:     Ellen L. Gfroehrer
                                                  ELGFROEHRER
                                        Dept:     Independent Learning
                                        Tel No:   (814) 865-5403

TO:  VMSMail User _IN%"CINEMA-L           ( _IN%"CINEMA-L@AUVM.BITNET" )

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Subject: RE: Meeting Venus et al

At least Maxie had Mandy Patankin.
From: C444307@MIZZOU1.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.cinema-l
Subject: Re: RE:UNFORGIVEN
Date: 3 Oct 92 22:11:39 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

>>Posted on 2 Oct 1992 at 19:57:29 by JACKSOSM@VUCTRVAX.BITNET
>>
>>Re: RE:UNFORGIVEN
>>
>>>SPOILER......................
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    Like you, however, I was somewhat troubled by the sudden return of
>>>Clint's ability to shoot--and the restoration of his reflexes, which the
>>>earlier portion of the film suggests have been damaged by age.  I found
>>>it even less realistic that this return took place after he was wounded and
>>>after he returned to the bottle after years of abstaining.  The film did
>>>something to address the reflexes question with the sheriff's speech to
>>>the reporter--doesn't matter how quick you are but how carefully you aim.
>>>But I wasn't entirely satisfied by this--although, like you, I loved the
>>>movie.
>>>Currie Thompson
>>
>>Judged by the narrow confines of neo-realism, the climactic scene in
>>which Munney (sp.?) guns down a saloon full of "bad" guys is dubious.  The
>>essential truth of this film plays upon the ambiguity of good and evil.
>>To me, Munney's restored gunfighter skills reinforces the mythical
>>quality of the story.  It is the dark side of "Shane" done in film
>>noir.  It may not be good journalism, but it is mighty effective
>>filmmaking.
>>
>>j-man
>>
>  Here, here.  The ending was a bit overboard but as the j-man suggests
> it does add to the myth and it was very effective.  I, for one, was
> very sattisfied with the ending.  I can't quite put my finger on why.
> Maybe because it demonstrated how Will Munny was the ultimate gun
> fighter that Gene Hackman had described earlier to the writer.  Remember
> he said something like speed doesn't count, it's how well you keep your
> cool.( I don't remember hearing the bit about taking aim)  And that's
> what Munny did.  I think that the predictable ending would have been for
> Munny to be killed....so having him survive made it that much more
> interesting.
>
> --Gayle Gleason
>
If I could tag on here...  The thing that really made it
for me was Clint Eastwood's look.  I can't describe it
any other way.  He just had that look.  Grizzled, mean,
desperate, broken down, dirt, fierce... And then as
he is standing there partially in the dark you get that
clap of thunder in the background....Too much!
What an image!

Joe Daus  U of MO-Columbia
C444307@MIZZOU1.bitnet
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Date:         Mon, 5 Oct 1992 11:49:33 -0500
From:         JACKSOSM@VUCTRVAX.BITNET
Subject:      Re: GOOD [bad] MOVIES

Subj:   RE: GOOD [bad] MOVIES

>First, I see BLACK ROBE as neither positive nor negative, but
>discursive and skeptical -- about everybody, New World and Old.
>It didn't seem interested in affirming anyone's faith. I thought
>of it as a view of a lab experiment -- a pinch of the Church
>Militant, a pinch of woodsy paganism, and let's watch the swirls
>and eddies. No easy judgements here.
>
>Sorry to go on. But BLACK ROBE kind of sticks with you.
>
>kjf-

Although we don't share the same regard for, as you amusingly put it,
DANCES WITH ONAN, we are in agreement on BLACK ROBE.  I rate it as one
of the best films I've seen in the last two or three years.  And you
are right.  It does stay with you.  Great cinematography, great score,
and an intelligent script that provokes reflection long after the
credits have passed.  Costner's film aspires to this level, but falls
short.  Nevertheless, it, too, has its moments.  At the very least, it
redresses a ludicrous tradition in Hollywood to portray Indians as
Sal Mineo caricatures.  For all its flaws, DANCES WITH WOLVES adds a
little cultural balance to the mythology of a lost culture.

j-man

    <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 13:44:58 EST
From:         "(Steve X. Portigal)" <stevep@SNOWHITE.CIS.UOGUELPH.CA>
Subject:      RE:UNFORGIVEN
              "CINEMA-L@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU" at Sep 29, 92 9:31 am

> >SPOILER......................
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >I saw UNFORGIVEN last w/end. [ . . . ] A couple of minor quibbles though :
> >
> >2) Clint's shooting at the end of the movie (when he avenges Ned) has
 improved
> >since the start of the movie (when he couldn't hit anything with a pistol)

  It seemed that something within him *snapped* when he saw his friend's body,
and he returned to the killer he once was. It was only when this happened to
him that he could actually shoot.
> >
> > enjoy
> >the movie quite so much because he felt that there was no 'good' characters,
> >varying degrees of evil. What do y`all think ?
>
   to me, that was the WHOLE POINT of the film. clint has made enough
westerns in his time, he wanted to make a movie that wasn't so black and
white, where your feelings weren't fed to you, where it wasn't clear enough
to everyone what they were supposed to think and feel. I found this challenging
and I guess more realistic. the idea of the anti-hero, maybe taken a little
further.

 I noticed the film was dedicated to Sergio and
Don...obviously Sergio is Sergio Leone director of all those spaghetti
westerns Clint was in. Who is Don?

> that Clint could recognize her.  For me it was not necessary that she be
> made to appear hideous.  In fact, I found the degree of scars not only
> realistic but symbolic--beauty and human dignity remaining despite the
> horror that has scarred and marked one.

 as well, place it in a different time, where facial scars on a woman
had probably greater social significance than now. As well, as a
prostitute, she was clearly treated as "damaged goods" adding to her shame.

--
/*************************************************************\
|  Steve Portigal  University of Guelph  Guelph, Ontario      |
|  stevep@snowhite.cis.uoguelph.ca (519) 824-4120 x 3580      |
\*************************************************************/
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From: rep3s@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Rick E. Provine)
Subject: Re: Return of Martin Guerre
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 19:12:01 GMT

Home vision has the title for 29.95.  Call 800-262-8600.
--
Rick E. Provine
Media Librarian
University of Virginia
rep3s@virginia.edu
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Date:         Fri, 2 Oct 1992 19:45:35 CST
From:         "Dick Clawson, S.J." <CLAWSON@LOYNOVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: GOOD [bad] MOVIES

Joe,
   I am undoubtedly biased.  I suppose that I wanted a North American version
of THE MISSION, but I still can't help feeling that BR fell short of the mark
when compared to history.  ESPECIALLY the little tag at the end that tells how
the peaceful Hurons were slaughtered x-many years laters by another tribe.  It
left a distinct impression in my mind that the author wished to blame the
influence of the missionaries on their defeat...
RDC,SJ
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Date:         Sun, 4 Oct 1992 23:07:52 -0400
From:         MDESCHUYTENE@SBCCMAIL.BITNET
Subject:      Flat fish

               State University of New York at Stony Brook
                       Stony Brook, NY 11794-8121

                                            Michel Deschuyteneer
                                            Department of Neurology, HSC
                                            516 444-1469
                                            04-Oct-1992 10:55pm EDT
FROM:  MDESCHUYTENEER
TO:    Remote Addressee                     ( _cinema-l@auvm.bitnet )

SUBJECT: Flat fish

    I have enjoyed performances by Natasha Richardson, Bob Hoskins, Jeff
    Goldblum and Michel Blanc enough to be intrigued by the prospect of
    having them all together in the same movie. Unfortunately, THE FAVOR,
    THE WATCH AND THE VERY BIG FISH turned out to be quite disappointing.
    It has some funny moments but the whole thing never quite gels. And the
    very big fish turns out to have a very small part.

    MICHEL
From: JACKSOSM@VUCTRVAX.BITNET
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Subject: Re: GOOD [bad] MOVIES
Date: 5 Oct 92 16:22:42 GMT
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Subj:   RE: GOOD [bad] MOVIES

>However, for truer, fuller and deeper vision of the relation between the two
>cultures/races involved--which I think has a genuine sense of acknowledgement
>and regret for the blunt fact that they can never quite meet--I recommend
>Bruce Beresford's BLACK ROBE.  A great film, achieving much more at half the
>length.
>
>Jeff Clark

I wholeheartedly agree.

j-man

    <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 10:01:43 -0500
From:         "(Currie Thompson)" <cthompso@CC.GETTYSBURG.EDU>
Subject:      Re: UNFORGIVEN

In Message Tue, 29 Sep 1992 08:22:47 EST,
  Milton Johnson <LIBMILT@CML.INDSTATE.EDU> writes:

>> SPOILER......................
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 2) Clint's shooting at the end of the movie (when he avenges Ned) has improve
   d
> a
>>  lot
>> since the start of the movie (when he couldn't hit anything with a pistol)
>>
>    I think the alcohol had a great deal to do with it.  It was in
>his drunken stupor that he was able to do the kind of "wicked" things
>he was guilty of in the past, IMHO.

    I agree with Milton's observation.  As I suggested in an earlier post,
on the physical level, the alcohol would tend to hurt his ability to shoot.
But if one assumes that his inability to shoot is primarily psychological,
the alcohol would help explain the improvement.
Currie Thompson
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Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1992 09:07:32 EDT
From:         Anjani Chandra <QAI@NIHCU.BITNET>
Subject:      Spike Lee-bashing

Karen,
I was all set to comment on your "essay" on Spike Lee, but
then j-man's posting pretty much summed up my POV.  I especially
liked his analogy between Lee & Sayles.  If I could add one
thing to the discussion (no doubt a flame-provoker), I have
aalways seen many interesting parallels (or should I say, lack
thereof) between the ways Spike Lee and Woody Allen are
perceived.  (j-man, I in no way imply that you might share this
view.)  It seems to me that Spike Lee is censured for SOME of
the things for which Woody Allen is lauded.  Now mind you, my
block when it comes to Allen movies is quite similar to the
block I imagine that you (Karen) may face when you watch
Spike Lee's movies ... namely that I just can't relate (as I
am a nonwhite 29 year old female born in India and raised in
anglo-saxon Protestant suburbia since age 4) -- all to say
that it's a combination of ethnicity, religion, and birth
cohort.  I have found it significantly easier to identify
with the issues raised by Spike Lee over the years.

You also made a point which I specifically want to counter:
you said that Jungle Fever was just a rehash of Guess Who's
Coming to Dinner.  I believe you said "where's the creativity
in that?"  You can't be serious.  Do you really suggest that
any movie or play that is essentially a remake of an earlier
plot is devoid of originality or creativity?  I happen to
feel that Jungle Fever took the GWCTD plot significantly
farther than the "original's" makers could in the 1960s.  I
quite admire the "original," BTW.

Now, I would really like to offer up some great examples of
"remakes" that achieved high acclaim (to bolster my argument)
but, as often happens to me, they're on the tip of my tongue.
Could anyone else think of some?  All I can think of right now
are plays.  (e.g., West Side Story, My Fair Lady, etc.)

--Anjani
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Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 15:43:28 EDT
From:         Gayle Gleason <ST402486@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Bob Roberts

 I saw Tim Robbins' _Bob Roberts_ last weekend.  It's so funny it's
 almost scary!  If you liked (okay, loved) _The Player_ because of its
 satire, then GO SEE _Bob Roberts_.   As one reviewer put it: " it's the
 revenge of the cultural ellite."

 --Gayle Gleason
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Date:         Thu, 1 Oct 1992 15:23:17 EDT
From:         SYRACURG@MUSC.BITNET
Subject:      Ben Vereen

     Does anyone know the current condition of Ben Vereen and the prognosis
   for his recovery.  Does anyone know the "inside" story about the
   accident -- was it one?
      Thanks.
                                        Mary Jane Sumter
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Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 12:23:36 CST
From:         Rick Francis <C47805NF@WUVMD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Blow-Up, Antonioni
              29 Sep 1992 10:47:36 MDT from <cmurrell@ACS.UCALGARY.CA>

Thanks!  I'm quite new to taking films seriously, and still forget
about the standard reference works.  I really appreciate the help
and I'll look these up today.

Best,

Rick Francis
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Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 09:32:54 BST
From:         "(John Smyth)" <eeijsh@EEIUC.ERICSSON.SE>
Subject:      Good [Bad] Movies

Joe Poulin writes:
>Might I take a chance on upsetting a few people (really, I hope I don't) by
>saying that I've never understood how anyone can take "On Golden Pond"
>seriously?  I've always thought it a terrible film, and wondered what the
>principles involved, who ought to have been embarassed to have their
>considerable reputations associated with this work, must have thought of the
>film's critical and popular reception.


I feel exactly the same way about 'True Grit', which netted John Wayne an Oscar.
Possibly the reason he won the Best Actor Award had more to do with him not
 having
won an Oscar after such a long career and less to do with his performance in
 "True Grit'.
I think he DESERVED an Oscar in 'The Searchers', one of the best Westerns I've
 ever seen.
In this movie, his character was far more complex than the usual
'man's-gotta-do-what-a-man's-gotta-do' cowboy role. Does anyone know if the
 movie was
nominated, or won any Oscars.What other movies were nominated that year (I think
 it was
the mid-Fifties). Also, was John Ford the director ?

                          yours questioningly
                                      John Smyth
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Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 08:41:02 PDT
From:         Jennifer Porro <BL.JMP@RLG.BITNET>
Subject:      FAME

REPLY TO 10/06/92 06:53 FROM CINEMA-L@AUVM.BITNET "Discussions on all forms of
Cinema"

FAME was the movie about the New York public high school that
specializes in the performing arts -- the movie launched several
careers, especially Irene Kara's, who is an excellent singer.
Jennifer P.

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Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 14:26:22 -0500
From:         PHARRIS@UMKCVAX1.BITNET
Subject:      thoughts and question

First, the question, What ever happened to the guy who played Harold in
Harold and Maude? I haven't seen him in ages.
THoughts:
SPOILER...............................








I was kind of upset when Clint killed Gene Hackman. I was hoping that he
would be the better man and walk away. Of course, Gene would have been after
him later, but I still had kind of hoped it would be that way.
Unforgiven was by far the best movie of the year!

Shirley Maclaine, I can't say I care for her personal life (lives?:])all that
much, but as an actress she can be wonderful. Especially in her earlier roles.
One of my favorite movies (I am a sucker for spaghetti westerns) was
Two Mules for Sister Sarah. She was excellent. It took me a while to realize
who she was. Any ways, just thought I would comment, YOu haven't heard
from me in a while.:} Stop Laughing!!!!!
Paul.