HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad)
Subject: Re: Mahler's 5th Symphony by Solti and remastering CDs
Organization: University of Delaware
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 17:45:21 GMT

In article <92255.114109TW@UMAB.BITNET> Tom Williams <TW@UMAB.BITNET> writes:
>Micheal Siemon write:

>> that Solti was not in Chicago till after I left in '67.  I had the
>> dubious pleasure of having Martinon as the principal conductor of
>> the CSO during my time in the Windy City.

>What's the story behind Martinon and the Chicago Symphony?  I've
>heard some of the recordings he made with the CSO;  his recording
>of Hindemith's Nobilism Visione(pardon my spelling) comes to mind
>and was great.

Martinon was a very fine conductor, and not just in the French
20th-century rep that he later recorded for Angel so well (some folks
who like symmetry have concocted a trio of the "three M's" who rule
French orchestral music: Munch, Monteux, and Martinon).  I recall many
excellent concerts under his baton there, and some fine recordings.
(That coruscating "Miraculous Mandarin" Suite is still about the best, I
think; will RCA ever reissue it?)

But he didn't get along with the orchestra.  He asked them to modify
their approaches (including timbre) for different music, and this
displeased them: they had their sound and didn't take kindly to meddling
with it.  It was probably a mismatch of orchestra and conductor, pure
and simple, and I take no sides on who was "right" in the disagreement.
Both parties were happier after the divorce.

Jon Alan Conrad
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: schissel@mace.Princeton.EDU (Eric Schissel)
Subject: Re: Switcheroos
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 04:08:48 GMT


>In article <BuFB9u.86C@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk>, jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin) writes:
>
>> I once mail-ordered an LP of Schoenberg's Wind Quintet from the UK to New
Assuming you haven't since gotten a recording of that wonderful piece
I recommend saving up for a CD player and getting both the recording
on Denon (with Mladi of Janacek and Holliger's transcription of the
Bach Ricercar a 6 from the Musical Offering/Sacrifice) and the rerelease
of the London Sinfonietta recording of the quintet and the op. 29 Suite
on London.  (I can't choose between them, myself.) 
schissel@math.cornell.edu (only address)

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad)
Subject: Re: Mahler #10 & Cooke
Organization: University of Delaware
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 20:50:52 GMT

In article <11SEP199212134460@portal.lasc.lockheed.com> le01167@portal.lasc.lockheed.com (Ron Nadel (x2025)) writes:

>In article <CB.92Sep11094630@tamarack13.timbuk>, cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster) writes...
 
>>I haven't heard Rattle's version of Mahler 10 but was interested that he
>>did some further revisions on Cooke's version.  

Mostly small.  The majority have to do with handling of percussion,
which has to be entirely conjectural as the short score tends not to
indicate drums etc.  I believe Rattle drops some xylophone doubles, and
tends to use less of the drums.  How much of a percussion presence is
"appropriate" tends to be a very personal matter of taste that varies a
lot between people.  In general, one would probably not notice most of
Rattle's few changes unless one was an eagle-eyed score-follower.

The biggest change Rattle makes is to merge the bass drum note at the
end of the fourth movement with the one that begins the fifth -- i.e.,
we only hear it once.  In the latest edition of the score (1989), one of
the co-editors mentions this in the additional notes, with approval; he
conjectures that Mahler might well have joined the movements this way
had he seen the score through performance and publication.  (But in the
printed score, they rightly stick to Mahler's notes.)

>>I wonder if he improved
>>some of the thin parts that Mark Stackpole identifies.  

No, thank goodness.  That is, I disagree with Mark here.  I find no
thinness in Cooke's score.  Some textures are rather bare, but in a very
authentic-sounding Mahlerian way.  To my ears, anyway.

>>And have there
>>been revisions (to Cooke's version) in addition to Rattle's?

Not to my knowledge.  Every other recording I know plays it as is.
Ormandy's of course is of an earlier edition; and the editors have made
some changes in the final (1989) edition that will obviously not
correspond 100% to what the existing recordings did.  (Maybe they'll
even make some of Rattle's changes retroactively purist!)

Jon Alan Conrad
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster)
Subject: Re: Sibelius 2nd symphony
In-reply-to: ucap22w@ucl.ac.uk's message of 7 Sep 92 17:27:30 GMT
Organization: pubs
	<CB.92Sep4150017@tamarack13.timbuk>
	<1992Sep07.172730.6857@bas-a.bcc.ac.uk>
Date: 8 Sep 92 11:43:54 CDT

Martin S T Watts writes:

   ...I also prefer the later symphonies, but that's not to say the 2nd
   is without its merits. Do you also think that maybe the earlier
   symphonies of Mozart or his violin concertos should be similarly
   withdrawn, on the grounds that they are weaker than *his* later
   works? I hope not.

No, I don't think any of that.  I guess I'm just tired of the ratio of
the Second being played about 100 times more frequently than all
Sibelius's other symphonies combined, when to me it's so much weaker.
Parts of it, early in the work, aren't so bad; it's really the last
movement that makes me turn off the radio.  I've been waiting 15 years
for a live performance of the sixth; I doubt one will ever come along.

An interesting question is, what accounts for Sibelius's change of style
between the second and third symphonies.  I had my own theory about
this--that it had something to do with the revival of Berwald at that
time--but I've seen at least two other theories about it.  One was that
he moved to the country and became more conscious of natural beauty.
Whatever it was, symphonies 3 through 7 are an extraordinary group.

Chris Brewster
cb@cray.com
From: aim@ocf.berkeley.edu (Ali Mirza)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Need BMG & Columbia House catalog #s
Date: 10 Sep 1992 20:52:21 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: avalanche.berkeley.edu

I'm thinking of becoming a member of both CD clubs. Could somesome send
me the catalog numbers of some of the better works available through the
club?
I'm looking for symphonic works in paticular but any good piece by any
of the famous composers would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.
From: gr@st-andrews.ac.uk (Gavin Ramsay)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Mahler 6 (was Re: Du Pre recital)
Date: 15 Sep 92 18:30:13 GMT
Organization: St. Andrews University, Scotland.

In article <1992Sep14.230348.805@spang.Camosun.BC.CA> dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker) writes:
>In article <1992Sep14.172951.6628@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU>
>smith@CS.Stanford.EDU (Jeremy Smith) writes:
>[....]
>>WHAT!?!? No BERSTEIN??? 
>>
>>Any group of the best performances of Mahler's 6th
>>Symphony must include Bernstein's most recent recording with the
>>Vienna Philharmonic.  I am not the only person who will tell you
>>this, so there's no need to say much more.  The timbres achieved in
>>this recording are a credit to Mahler's orchestrtion genius. 
>
>So are his tempi less extreme than the 1966 NYPO version? I have to
>hear the VPO version but am unwilling to spend the cash on seomthing
>which might be as o{ut-of-court - as far as I'm concerned - as his
>previous version because of the tempi. The outer movements marches are
>really *too* fast.
>
>may I put in a word for the long out of print NPO/Barbirolli? I think
>he digs deeper into the despair than anyone else *I've* ever heard. I
>heard him do it live and I heard Szell. Szell was bloody good, but
>Barbirolli was bloody *great*.
>
>Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept., Camosun College, Victoria B.C.

I haven't heard anyone put a word in for Klaus Tennstadt. I've not heard his
recording of the 6th, but i heard him doing the 6th live and it was really 
great - even bloody great!  The hammer blows were really shattering.
gavin ramsay
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster)
Subject: Re: Sibelius 2nd
In-reply-to: inr@eccles.caltech.edu's message of Wed, 9 Sep 1992 16:30:00 GMT
Organization: pubs
Date: 9 Sep 92 11:59:22 CDT

I. Neill Reid writes:

   ... I'd argue that the [difference between Sibelius's] 2nd-3rd is
   more of a continuous natural progression of style than an abrupt 
   transition.

In technical terms I'd agree.  It's what he's "saying" that changes.  In
#2 he feels obliged to pump up a false, theatrical emotionalism.  (I
cringe at the big theme in the last mvt: the one that climbs the scale,
pauses, and melodramatically resolves at the low end.)  Then, following
the Second, almost as if Sibelius had attained enlightenment at the top
of the mountain (or maybe in the sauna--wherever Finns go for that kind
of thing), he embarked on a series of symphonies characterized by, to my
ears, an emotional authenticity that could never be faked.  I disagree
with someone's implication that the Fifth has an affinity with the
Second.  Again, there might be some technical parallels, but the two
works are on different missions.  [All the foregoing is of course my
"subjective reactions" but as definite to me as anything in music.]

An analogy might be drawn to Vaughan Williams.  *His* second, the Sea
Symphony, has much good material that's clearly his style, but much else
that's borrowed from Elgar, conveying a certain expectable, standard
feeling for that period.  Then RVW finds his voice (or rather expels
Elgar's).  Just listen to *his* next four symphonies; this is the real
thing.

Chris Brewster
cb@cray.com
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: dbrooks@penge.osf.org (David Brooks)
Subject: Re: Le Sacre, Stravinski
Organization: Open Software Foundation
Date: 13 Sep 92 14:46:30

conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad) writes:

   And while we're at it, there's one Dutoit/Montreal recording that I wish
   they'd patched a bit more: a wrong piccolo entry in the middle of
   Jupiter leads to several measures of chaos and mars...

Maybe the music blew back a couple of pages.  You'd think the player would
notice the sudden switch to 5/4.

Well, that's how I parsed it at first...

--
David Brooks					dbrooks@osf.org
Open Software Foundation			uunet!osf.org!dbrooks
Four more months!  Four more months!
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: pajerek@telstar.kodak.com (Don Pajerek)
Subject: Re: Solti and Karajan (was: Re: Mahler's 5th Symphony by Solti ...)
Reply-To: pajerek@kadsma.kodak.com (Don Pajerek)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corp. - Telstar
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 15:54:33 GMT

In article <92253.084627RHASKINS@UMAB.BITNET> Robert Haskins <RHASKINS@UMAB.BITNET> writes:
>Jeremy writes:
>
>No doubt, Karajan has injected a few dogs into the CD catalogue
>(Shostakovich #10 for example), but Solti cannot compete with his
>
>Do you mean the recording of Shostakovich #10 in the 80s, with the
>big "DS" on the cover?  If so, I'd really like to know what you don't
>like about it?  I think it's the best performance of the Tenth I've
>ever heard on record.
>
>Bob

The von Karajan remake of the Shostakovich 10th is a pale shadow of the
previous recording, which was made in the mid-60's, I believe. This recording
remains the best 10th I've ever heard, and I've got a bunch.

BTW - it's available as a low-price re-issue. You can't go wrong.


Don Pajerek

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: maher@umbc4.umbc.edu (Dr. Michael Maher; ACS (GUEST))
Subject: Frida Leider
Organization: Univ. of MD, Baltimore County
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 13:17:49 GMT


I have recently become aquainted with the voice of 
Frida Leider through an old Angel recording with
her immolation scene and Walkuere excerpts.

Pear and Preiser both have CDs of Leider, can
anyone make recommendations about sound quality
on either label.  Preiser has a 3 CD set, perhaps
with every Leider recording.  Is Pearl just as
From: S.L.Fagg@bnr.co.uk
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Sibelius 6th Symphony live
Date: 10 Sep 92 07:40:29 GMT

On 8 Sep 92 at 16:43:54 GMT in <CB.92Sep8114350@tamarack13.timbuk> 
cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster) writes:
> I've been waiting 15 years
> for a live performance of the sixth; I doubt one will ever come along.

How far are you prepared to travel????

This autumn the London Symphony Orchestra are giving a complete
Sibelius cycle under Sir Colin Davis in the Barbican Hall, their
London home. As well as the numbered symphonies they are performing
Lounnotar, Tapiola, Finlandia, the Kullervo Symphony, Pohjola's
Daughter, the Violin Concerto, The Swan of Tuonela, and Rakastava.

The sixth is on Sunday 29th November, along with Tapiola and the
Fifth. My personal favourite, the fourth, is coupled with Rakastava
and your _bete noire_, the second, a fortnight later in the closing
concert of the season. Should be a good series. Gloat! Gloat! :-)

-- 
Regards

Steve Fagg      ( S.L.Fagg@bnr.co.uk +44-279-402437 )
BNR Europe Ltd., London Road, Harlow, Essex, CM17 9NA, UK

*** "Better drowned than duffers. If not duffers, won't drown". ***
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: mikulska@astro.Princeton.EDU (Margaret Mikulska)
Subject: Re: Defending Cage (cont. oops!)
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: mikulska@astro.princeton.edu (Margaret Mikulska)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 03:24:44 GMT

In article <1992Aug25.221115.8780@fid.morgan.com> steve@fid.morgan.com (Steve Apter) writes:
>In article <JcN3PB3w165w@west.darkside.com> k@west.darkside.com (K) writes:
>
>>							 Do any of you 
>>remember the Futurists?
>
>You mean those guys who painted speed-lines on their heads?


No.  The guys who composed for intonarumori.


-Margaret

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: joelb@beta.lanl.gov (Joel R. Berendzen)
Subject: Re: Du Pre recital
Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 23:12:06 GMT

As long as we are mentioning criminal insensitivity, musical and otherwise,
with respect to Jackie Du Pre, I'm surprised that you haven't mentioned
Danny Barenboim.  I think that the recordings that Rob was asking about 
are out now on EMI CD's.  I don't have the number, sorry, but my girlfriend
has these and another recently reissued performance (Beethoven, I think),
on CD.  There are two videos that feature her, as well.  One has her playing
the Elgar with Danny "Shithead" Barenboim accompanying, and displaying all
his usual sensitivity.  The other one is of a performance of the "Trout"
quintet with Barenboim, Perlman, Zuckerman (vla.) and Mehta (Bass!).  The
best moment of this one is of them clowning around backstage before the
performance, when Jackie plays a pizz. blues line while making a "jazz face".

Another 2nd-generation fan,

Joel Berendzen

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad)
Subject: Re: 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 19:57:37 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.034443.3376@timessqr.gc.cuny.edu> kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu writes:

>...a very worthwhile book, "The Musicals Nobody Came To
>See."  This is a resource book for those interested in doing a show and 
>prefer to stay away from the overly familiar.  1600 Penn. Ave gets an entry;
>but unlike the entries for other shows that explain where to get the
>music, rights, etc., the entry under this show has a note saying, in effect,
>that neither Bernstein nor Lerner are interesting in seeing this show
>produced.  Sounds very unhappy!

>Though the show never opened in NYC, I know I have seen a bootleg tape of
>some performance - if anyone is interested I can try to locate it.

First a correction to what was, I'm sure, just a momentary memory lapse
on Bob's part:  1600 Penn Ave.  DID open in NYC, and closed very
quickly.  (On the other hand, Lerner and Bernstein might have felt that
the show that opened was not really the one they wrote.)

I've heard about bootleg tapes of it, but never heard one.  I for one
might be interested if the sound is decent.

Most important, I can report some motion on the 1600 P.A. front, too
recent to include in the article (which I had to complete in April 1991,
with an insert for Candide in September to accommodate the new
recording -- OQ works over a year ahead).  Indiana U Opera Theater did a
"staged reading" of it as one of their 2 summer shows this year, a late
decision apparently aided by outside funding from a group interested in
trying it out again (with the cooperation of the respective estates, of
course).  After the production's run, it played 3 performances at the
Kennedy Center in August -- unfortunately it was slotted into their
existing schedule at a late date, so the dates were odd and only
belatedly publicized, and I was unable to get there.  But at any rate,
things are starting to happen with it.

Jon Alan Conrad
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker)
Subject: Re: Karajan & Solti (was Mahler's 5th & Solti etc.)
Organization: Camosun College, Victoria BC, Canada
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 18:32:51 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.222031.29549@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> smith@CS.Stanford.EDU (Jeremy Smith) writes:
>In article <8SEP199216410533@deimos.caltech.edu>, inr@deimos.caltech.edu (I. Neill Reid) writes:
>
>|>   although there are some very fine recordings, it's a very Germanic 
>|>  Sibelius that he presents 
>|> 
>
>Perhaps,  but Sibelius himself said that HvK was the only conductor who understood
>his music.

Was this before or after his endorsements of Koussevitsky and Beecham?

Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept., Camosun College, Victoria B.C.

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: loosemore-sandra@CS.YALE.EDU (Sandra Loosemore)
Subject: Re: obscure but good
Organization: staff hacker @ Yale Haskell project
	<1992Sep15.201447.29293@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu>
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 17:56:03 GMT

   |> What are your favorite musical sleepers? Can you recommend recordings?

The Leighton "Veris Gratia" suite.  There's a wonderful recording on
Chandos, coupled with the Finzi cello concerto (also a nice piece).

-Sandra
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical,ba.music
From: stehle@erg.sri.com (Roy Stehle)
Subject: Free band concert, 12 Sept, 6 PM, Woodside Village Band
Originator: stehle@teak.erg.sri.com
Organization: SRI International, Menlo Park, CA
Distribution: ba
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 20:13:44 GMT

The Woodside Village Band, under the direction of Richard Gordon, is
presenting a free outdoor concert featuring the following works:

	Hits of the 20's			Various/Marty Gold
	The Pirates of Penzance Overture	Arthur Sullivan/Robert O'Brien
	Folk Song Suite				R. Vaughan Williams
	The Mad Major March			Kenneth Alford/F. Fennell
	Malaguena				Ernesto Lecuona/John Cacavas
	Sophisticated Ladies, Highlights	Duke Ellington/John Cacavas
	The Liberty Bell March			John Philip Sousa


			Saturday, 12 September 1992, 6 PM
			Outdoor Amphitheater
			Woodside Elementary School
			Woodside Road, Woodside, CA
			Free Admission and Parking

===========
stehle@erg.sri.com
From: chem91@Elroy.UH.EDU ("Bill Harrison (713)-743-2789")
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Solti and Karajan (was: Re: Mahler's 5th Symphony by Solti ...)
Date: 9 Sep 92 14:16:29 GMT
Reply-To: chem91@Elroy.UH.EDU
Organization: University of Houston

In article <1992Sep8.234755.2389@spang.Camosun.BC.CA>, dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker) writes:
>In article <1992Sep8.175548.6739@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> smith@honesty.Stanford.EDU.Stanford.EDU (Jeremy Smith) writes:
>[....]
>
>Strangely, most other commentators seem to think his [HvK's] Shostakovich 10th
>is excellent.
>

Herbie recorded 2 Shostakovich 10s. The older one (from the 60s?) is regarded
as good, the newer one (which I had the misfortune to buy) as pretty awful.
It (the later one) probably has the *best playing* of any Shostakovich ever 
recorded, but that appered to be all that HvK was concerned with... 

Bill

>Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept., Camosun College, Victoria B.C.
>
+ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\               /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Bill Harrison,            \             /       "Be as radical as... |
| University of Houston, TX  >-----------<         reality itself"     |
| CHEM91@JETSON.BITNET      /             \                V. I. Lenin |
+ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/               \~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu (Bob Kosovsky)
Subject: Re: Frida Leider
Reply-To: kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu
Organization: Computer Center, CUNY Graduate School, New York NY 10036
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 13:40:56 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.131749.27062@umbc3.umbc.edu>, maher@umbc4.umbc.edu (Dr. Michael Maher; ACS (GUEST)) writes:
>I have recently become aquainted with the voice of Frida Leider through 
>an old Angel recording with her immolation scene and Walkuere excerpts.
>
>Pear and Preiser both have CDs of Leider, can anyone make recommendations 
>about sound quality on either label.  Preiser has a 3 CD set, perhaps
>with every Leider recording.  Is Pearl just as 

Careful - the Preiser set contains only all her pre-EMI recordings.
Sure there's surface noise - though I think a little less than Preiser's
LP's of similar material.  It's expensive, and unless you're a fanatic
like me, I would say it's unnecessary to have ALL her acoustic recordings.
The Pearl CD you speak of contains a nice set of Walkuere stuff - more than
appeared on COLH 105.  It's a good starter's disc.

Having been taught by the world of operatic hype that Kirsten Flagstad is
the first and last thing in Wagner, it was a fabulous experience to
discover Frida Leider.  Finally, a Wagnerian singer who could express
emotional changes and whose vocal timbre is so rich and used to advantage.
I really believe (apologies to all if you don't) that her electrical recording
of "Ich sah' das Kind" is THE best rendition of that excerpt - and her best
recording as well - a good example of how to use that vocal color to best
effect and how to manipulate it (very antithetical to Flagstad's way of
doing things).
OK, by the time of her first electrical recordings her high notes were a
little pinched, and her intonation can be a little off at times in the
highs, but I think her musicianship compensates.

BTW - there are "two" Leiders.  In live performances she was noticably 
different (read the excerpt in her autobiography "Playing My Part" about
how controled she felt recording could be).  There is a "Ho-Jo-To-Ho" from
1938 that shows up from time to time, as well as excerpts from Goetter-
daemerung that are available because Furtwaengler is conducting.
I have a 2-lp set of snippets from 2 Met Tristans in 1934 which, despite
the ghastly sound quality, is wonderful singing (with Melchior!) and
also shows that Leider was very different on stage than the recording
studio.  I could wax on if prompted, but that should be enough for now.


Bob Kosovsky
Graduate Center -- Ph.D. Program in Music(student)/ City University of New York
New York Public Library -- Music Division
bitnet:   kos@cunyvms1.bitnet        internet: kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu
Disclaimer:  My opinions do not necessarily represent those of my institutions.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical