From: clavazzi@nyx.cs.du.edu (The_Doge)
Subject: The usual back-and-forth
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Date: Tue, 5 Jan 93 15:35:10 GMT

In article <1993Jan5.094401.1@ulkyvx.louisville.edu> cdpert01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu writes:
>In article <C0CMoK.45t@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, parker@ehsn17.cen.uiuc.edu (Robert S. Parker) writes:
>> cdpert01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu writes:
>> 
>>>     "Human persons" should be replaced by "convicted murderers" in your 
>>>appeal -- to make it more specific to the thread.  Second, your use
>>>of "zygotes or fetii" tends to dehumanize the unborn children you're
>>>considering (definition of child is an unborn or recently born person).
>> 
>> Well, if you hadn't said "definition", I would have let this go, but...
>> According to Funk & Wagnals Standard Desk Dictionary:
>> 
>> child:  1. An offspring of human parents.  2. A boy or girl, most commonly one
>> between infancy and youth.  3. A descendant.  4. A childish person.  5. A
>> product of a specified condition, quality, etc: a child of joy.
>
>     I used the word "child" based on the definition in Webster's Ninth 
>New Collegiate Dictionary (1991).
>
>       child: 1. a : An unborn or recently born person. 
>                 b (dialect) : A female infant.
>              2. a : A young person esp. between infancy and youth.
>                 b : A childlike or childish person.
>                 c : A person not yet of age.
>                 ....
>
	Demonstrating that non-medical dictionaries have slightly different
definitions of the term "child".  This hardly constitutes overwhelming
evidence for calling zygotes, embryos, or fetii something else in order to
score rhetorical points.
[...]
>
>>  On the other hand, calling them a fetus is excatly the definition.
>
>     It is exact for any unborn or unhatched vertebrate after attaining
>some development.
>
>>  The poster was using more precise terminology
>> to clarify the distinction between a person (who is born) and an unborn human
>> being (I hope you don't find that "dehumanizing").
>
>     Your wording is consistent -- you refer to a "person" and an "unborn 
>human being" in the same sentence.  The poster to whom I was replying
>used "human person" (a double referennce to humanity)  and "fetii and zygotes" 
>(wnot necessarily human) in the same sentence.  (Maybe the expression 
>"human person" was used to distinguish from those biological android 
>entities of which we read in the Dr. Beter's Audio Letters.  :-)
> 
	That was me.  I was using them in the same paragraph to 
point out the difference between a *person* (with the resulting full legal
rights) and a z/e/f.  I thought that was obvious at the time.
	If you want to quote me, I'd appreciate it if you'd actually do so,
rather than provide a distorted paraphrase as part of a personal cheap shot.
	That said, I think it's pretty obvious that this has deteriorated
into yet another visit to the talk.abortion Argument Clinic ("Yes it is!  No
it isn't!").  The pro-life side has used the term "unborn child" so long as
part of its rhetorical arsenal that it's pretty much psychologically and
politically impossible for them to back down now, even when the substitution
of the term "child" for "embryo" leads to bizarre results (does everybody
remember the legal battle over ownership of those seven frozen "children" last
year? Talk about "biological androids"....).
	For at least some members of that group, it seems to be almost as
essential as the notion that all pro-choicers are either evil or simply
misguided.  Or that all doctors who perform abortions are greedy, immoral
swine.  The Enemy must remain a horde of demons in order to keep the troops
in line.
	This is not to say that we don't see some of this on the pro-choice
side.  It's just that, being pro-choice, I'm more aware of the attacks sent
my way by the folks on the other side.
	Sorry to interrupt the traditional flame-fest.  As you were...
The_Doge
ObQuote:       The prestige of government has undoubtedly been lowered
        considerably by the Prohibition law. For nothing is more
        destructive of respect for the government and the law of the
        land than passing laws which cannot be enforced. It is an open
        secret that the dangerous increase of crime in this country is
        closely connected with this.
                -- Albert Einstein, "My First Impression of the U.S.A.", 1921

Newsgroups: talk.abortion