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Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 18:04:58 EST
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      Re: when the world is new..
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU
              SHERRILL" at Aug 18, 92 12:22 pm

>
>This song by Julie Miller is great but it lacks a true message. God I can
>do whatever I want because You will forgive me. Because of this I can go to
>heaven and be like You. Where is our responsibility to God?
>

This song is a song of hope and grace. Hope and Grace is the message of
the New Testament.

Yes, God will forgive us, and yes we will be like him, but no the song does
not say go out and sin...

When the world is new, I will be like Him... whether I sin now, or not.. If
I sin, there is forgivness in the name of Jesus.. Should I sin so that
grace more abounds??? CERTAINLY NOT!! (now who said that??? :-)   )



---------------------+-------------+-----------------------------------------
Ian Williams         |    _--_|\   |      Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems       |   /      \  |	  Phone	  : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia  |   \_.--*_/  |
                     |         v   |
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: nlt@gboro.glassboro.edu (N. L. Tinkham)
Subject: Re: Drunkard/alcoholic
Organization: Department of Computer Science, Glassboro State College
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 20:03:46 GMT

Bernice Tennant asks:

>Isn't there an incident where the diciples were asked for money and they
>did they offer prayer or something?

You may be thinking of Acts 3, in which Peter and John meet a man who
has been crippled from birth and who is begging for money outside the
temple.  Peter answers him with "Silver or gold I do not have, but what
I have I give you.  In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk."  Peter
helps the man to his feet, and the man finds that he is healed.

_____________________________________________________________________________

                                              Nancy Tinkham
                                              nlt@gboro.glassboro.edu
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Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1992 09:03:00 EDT
From:         Richard.Campbell@MVS.UDEL.EDU
Subject:      RE: Male Homo vs. Love
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU

 Hi all -- I know this thread is a few days old now, but I wanted to write in
support of Leo's original post.  What he states is essentially, though in much
simpler terms, the accepted theories of homosexual development respected by
ex-gay ministries associated with Exodus, an international organization of
ministries to those desiring freedom from homosexuality.  (I don't have their
address handy but can post.  Private inquiries welcome.)
I also suggest those interested read the following books:
 "The Broken Image" by Leanne Payne, Crossway Books.
 "Homosexuality -- A New Christian Ethic" by Dr. Elizabeth Moberly.
 "Pursuing Sexual Wholeness:  How Jesus Heals the Homosexual" by Andrew
Comiskey, Creation House.
 Moberly's is a little hard to get a hold of, but she addresses questions like
why do some men with absent fathers become gay and others not, etc.
                                           In Christ,
                                                     Rich
                                           Richard.Campbell@MVS.UDEL.EDU
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Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1992 14:58:13 EDT
From:         dave talaga x2752 <talaga@E5SB.OSDHW.SYR.GE.COM>
Subject:      Re: Is the Bible Absolute Truth?
X-To:         CHRISTIA@asuvm.inre.asu.edu, bradk%isdgsm@rtsg.mot.com

> But I am not attacking the inerrancy of Scripture.  On the contrary, I
> *assert* the inerrancy of Scripture, confident that the teaching
> authority of my Church (which asserts the same) is confirmed and
> upheld by the Holy Spirit, as Jesus promised.
>

I'm confused.  I though you said the bible was a "fairly realiable" truth, but
 not "the" truth.  I concluded that you meant it dosn't stand on it's own merits
 but needs some assistance to extract what's applicable for today.  In other
 words: there is error and it must, through some agency, be corrected.   Now I'm
 not picking on you personally, but I did think your post was representative of
 the issue (I balk at your use of "my Church," I think that is an unfair
 distinction when talking about the Bible).

> My problem is with your argument that the inerrancy of Scripture is
> linked inextricably with the perfection of God.  (At least that's how
> I read it!)  God's perfection does not depend on the inerrant
> transmission of His word by mortal humans; His perfection simply is:
> it is eternal, ineffable, and utterly majestic.

If the scriptures are the living word of God, then He is them.  If He is the
 word, then the word  must share His attributes of truth and perfection,
 regardless of the medium He chooses to communicate them through.  Or, He is
 responsible to preserve them in spite of our proclivities to pervert them.

>
> (I agree that the fundamental issues of salvation are the same
> yesterday, today and forever.  That was not what I meant when I spoke
> of cultural differences between us and the Inspired Authors.  It's a
> question of how one interprets what was read, not whether what was
> read is relevant.)

What good is something that is not relavent?  Why bother to interpret it?  What
 part is irrelavent?  All scripture is as relavent today as it was when it was
 written (I'm speaking in the spiritual sense) because all scripture deals with
 the issue of the heart.

>
> It may surprise you to learn that I believe quite firmly not only in
> Biblical miracles, but that our world *today* is literally flooded in
> miracles, by the grace of God.

I'm not surprised at all.  Actually, as I was staring at the screen,  I got a
 "warm fuzzy" about you and those I have "talked" to on CHRISTIA.  This is an
 intresting medium, but dangerous as well since so much is lost, for obvious
 reasons.  It is easy to misunderstand each other so we must guard against such
 a thing.  I only hope that what I say is a challenge that leads to a deeper
 understanding of God's truth, and not discord.
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Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 14:34:11 EDT
From:         Leo W <Leo_W@QM.CIRCA.UFL.EDU>
Subject:      Re>Homosexuality
X-To:         Christia <christia@asuvm.inre.asu.edu>

Carl wrote: "One point that I cannot understand though is how a Christian can
be a celibate homosexual."

My 10 years old son is a Christian celebate homosexual.  He loves me, his
father, very much.  We hug and kiss each other daily.  He has a deep need for
same-sex love and I am the God-ordained source for this love.  If our
homosexual relationship continues normally, he will continue to accept my love,
his same-sex love needs will be met by his father, he will fully identify
himself with my gender, and he will become heterosexual.

It is important to keep in mind that every heterosexual is an ex-homosexual.

For more information, I strongly suggest reading Dr. Moberly's book entitled
"Psychogenesis."

Yours in Christ Jesus,
Leo
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 14:26:00 CDT
From:         "Love does not subtract, it multiplies." <HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Trusting Scoutmasters

<   I bet they would be in direct conflict since the stats you mention are
<   related to a different problem.  Incest does not always mean it occured by
<   a pedophile, and child abuse can be anything from sexual assualt to physical
<   assault.  So why wouldn't the stats on pedophiles differ from those who
<   engage in incest and child abuse?

The bulk of incest cases are a father raping his underage daughter.  Please
explain why this should be classified differently from pedophilia.

Dan
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Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 10:32:00 EST
From:         "DRCV06::GRAHAM" <GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL>
Subject:      Can society destroy the family?
X-To:         christia <christia@asuvm.inre.asu.edu>

Fritz mentions several things he thinks the government can do to promote
"family values."  Let's look at them:

Defeating or passing the "freedom of Choice Act" has no bearing on family
values.  Any given family can have any values they wish.  In past times,
there were far worse situations trying to tear apart close families, and
they held on, not because of government regulations, but becuase they held
on to each other and to God.

Education and condoms in schools are again, irrelevant.  As a child is
taught right and wrong by a parent or parents, they will have to make their
own choices.  If a condom is offered, they will have to choose.  The lack
of the offering or it's presence will not in any way affect the values of
the child's family.  Those values are set by the family members, not by
society.

The Camel advertising is part of our freedom of speech.  Banning it would
abridge that.  Christians do not have a right to ask others to stop doing
offensive things in my opinion, they simply must avoid the offensive
behavior.  A parent can train their children what is good and not.  If the
child makes poor choices, they will learn from that.  Nothing a parent or a
"traditional family" can do will stop a person from making bad choices.

While I agree that parent's authority should be kept over children, I
remember what I said in a post a couple of days ago:  Moses was removed
from his mother at a tender age, yet her instruction served him well.
Dedicated parents will rear dedicated children despite society.  Again,
there is nothing the government or Hollywood can do to tear up the family,
only the family can do that.

The final point was giving the FCC greater powers.  This is horrid!  They
have far too much now!  Censorship will never, never keep anyone pure and
undefiled.  Under the direct control of God, the Israelites snuck off to
the hills to whore with the Moabites.  No!  You cannot legislate a family
value of any kind.  Stop trying to get the government to make life save and
protected for the family and put energies into making good families.  As I
said before, if God builds the house / home, nothing will destroy it, and
if He does not, no amount of societal protection will save it.

Dan Graham
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 14:17:29 CDT
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Bible - Part 2

Dear Jason ;

Something can be true as a starting point, if it is "axiomatically"
consistent.
Example, how do you KNOW that "2 + 2 = 4" is TRUE?  hmmm?
It is true only axiomatically, by the Law of Contradiction, one of the few
basic "starting points" of presuppositional thought.
If the equation can be proven INCONSISTENT, the notion is exploded.
The Lord HAS stated that HE will not and CANNOT lie.
That is one of our premises. God is the logos ... He is LOGIC, and He cannot
go against HIS nature by being otherwise, else, He would not be God.  That is
another premise.
Third, the Lord has stated that all Scripture was from Him (2 Tim 3).
Did He lie?  Is He inconsistent? Is it illogical as the Scriptures
themselves define illogic?  If all of these answers are "NO", thenthe
Word of God is true, valid, consistent, based upon its own stated and
consistent logic.
This is where we begin.
All people, philosophers, scientists, anthropoligists, have starting points
which allegedly stand axiomatically without extrinsic proof.  The question is
"Are their ideas consistent with reality or are there any disjunctions?"






Jesse Carnes
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Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 10:32:27 PDT
From:         Abraham Amirtha <aamirtha@HPIOSF.CORP.HP.COM>
Subject:      Re: This won't win me any friends, but...
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU
              21, 92 11:14 am

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

Kerry writes :

> Jesus does *not* want us to follow Mary *and* Him; He wants us to
>    follow Him *alone*.
> Following Mary will *not* gain you salvation.

	Amen to this. Jesus said, I am *the* Way, *the* Truth and *the* Life.
Jesus did not say "I am a Way a Truth a Life". Well, there is only one way to
obtain salvation and to reach heaven and that is our Lord Jesus Christ. Any
other so called way is Anti-Christ however appealing their pursuasions be.
After all we are in a time when Satan will come like an angel of light.
Let us not be decieved for the day is at hand. If we follow someone else
instead of Chrsit, we are in danger of undermining the sacrifice of our Lord
Jesus Christ. There is no short cut to heaven.
	There is one God and one mediator between God and man, the man Jesus
Christ.

	God Bless you all.

-Abraham Amirtharaj.


--
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	/    //    //    / ____/ /    /_____// \/ \
       /    //____//    //____/_/    //____//      \
From: FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET (zane of dhahran)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Orthodoxy
Date: 22 Aug 92 18:17:05 GMT
Organization: King Fahd University of Petroleum and Minerals, S.A.
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X-Acknowledge-To: <FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET>

Mark,

    Thank you for taking the time to write out that informative and interesting
to read post about the Order of Mans.
    Yes, that was the group that I had heard of, although whatever it was I
read, contained very little information.
    It sounds like you believe some of the conversions to be authentic, so
let us thank God for them.  As for those who want to deceive...they are being
deceived and they need our prayers that their eyes would be opened.  Love
your enemies.
                                                     Zane.

 "Oh Lord have mercy unto me.  Oh Lord have mercy unto my enemies.  Lord,
the fiery wrath in them, polishes your heavenly gem, glory to the great
I AM."
From: FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET (zane of dhahran)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Benny Hinn/fathers
Date: 12 Aug 92 13:43:55 GMT
Organization: King Fahd University of Petroleum and Minerals, S.A.
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X-Acknowledge-To: <FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET>

Mark Drake,

    Yes, we sure do need to follow Christ.  His principles are Biblical.
You said, "There were a lot of 'heresy hunters'... going around...now
considered church fathers....How does that relate?"  Good question!
    Yes, even in the N.T. we see that there were "Christian heresy hunters"
chasing Paul around.... Note how he handled it over the years.  Look at the
traditional dates of the letters of Paul, and read them to see how he dealt
progressively with those who believed he was some kind of arch-heretic. I think
you'll find it interesting.
    The "fathers" seem to have been a varied lot.  We should emulate them as
they emulated Christ - no more no less (my opinion).  It has also been said,
"giants cast big shadows."  Let's pray for transparent spiritual giants; or
leaders whose shadows work like Peter's.
    Early Church history is an interesting subject.  I think it is very
appropriate to look at their situation for insights into our own.  But reading
Church history requires a lot of prayer and unlearning.  Ask God for some
holy thoughts on the subject.

P.S. John was a Baptist too.                  Irini pasi, Zane.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 12 Aug 1992 15:14:19 MST
From:         "Steven E. Hoell" <seh@NEUTRON.PHYSICS.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Steven Hoell

Thanks, Zane.

Since my name is on the subject line, it's a good time to inform you
all that I will be going on NOMAIL until about 6 Sept. 1992. As some
of you took me to task over one issue or another, I will keep up the
exchange via private email.

For members who think they've "arrived", let me share the following
"Red Meat" cartoon by Max Cannon:

Priest: "Lord, I pray that you will forgive Milkman Dan for his transgressions,
         and give him wisdom so that he may see the error of his ways..."

Voice from above:
        "Well, well. Aren't we `Little Mr. Perfect.'"

Steve Hoell             seh@neutron.physics.arizona.edu
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From: FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET (zane of dhahran)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Biblical principles/Benny H.
Date: 12 Aug 92 13:43:54 GMT
Organization: King Fahd University of Petroleum and Minerals, S.A.
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X-Acknowledge-To: <FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET>

Mark,

    An excellent question.  Unfortunately I've got to go to work right now
so I won't be able to give you my response until a bit later.  Peace, Zane.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 16:48:00 EDT
From:         "Carl A. Lahetta" <U952020@RUTADMIN.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Trusting Scoutmasters

> From:         "Love does not subtract, it multiplies." <HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET>
> Subject:      Re: Re: Trusting Scoutmasters
> To:           "carl a. lahetta" <U952020>
>
> <   I bet they would be in direct conflict since the stats you mention are
> <   related to a different problem.  Incest does not always mean it occured by
> <   a pedophile, and child abuse can be anything from sexual assualt to physic
al
> <   assault.  So why wouldn't the stats on pedophiles differ from those who
> <   engage in incest and child abuse?
>
> The bulk of incest cases are a father raping his underage daughter.  Please
> explain why this should be classified differently from pedophilia.

   What percentage of cases constitute a "bulk"?  There is not a difference
   in terms of the age of the person assualted and the desire of the person
   to have sex with a minor.  Yet, with stats it matters if the police list
   this sexual offense under incest or pedophile.  If it is listed under
   incest along with the sex and relationship of those involved then the
   stats for the percent of pedophiles can be determined.  Also, this type
   of incest may not count as pedophile if the daughter is over 18.

> Dan

Carl------+  And yes, daughters over 18 are raped by their fathers.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: Z_STAFF_CL@SOUTHAMPTON-INSTITUTE.AC.UK
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Mary & Colour Blue
Date: 13 Aug 92 16:58:00 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

From:        Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@EARN.PURCCVM>
So, is the "color of Mary" thing more of an art thing than a theology
thing?


I wish I could untangle it to see.  Art and the church and artistic
symbols and theological symbols all seem to over lap here.

I regret I neither know my theology or art history of the period
well enough.

If you look at 6th century icons blue is used for mary.  At the time the
only art was sponsored by the church - any thing else was worshiping
idols and blasphamy

it is difficult to see if the church dictated blue because is was
theologically sound

or because only the church could afford such an expensive mineral to
make the blue and so only used it for the most important figures (at
one time lapis laz. was more expensive than gold leaf) to give status

or if this most expensive material was used out of homage by artists who
then persuaded the church that only the best was good enough.

It is interesting to note that one of the most common colours these
days is blue and so people forget this angle.  I wonder what we'd used
today to show rarity and value when illustrating BVM
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Date:         Fri, 14 Aug 1992 15:55:58 -0500
From:         "j.b. cormier" <CORJB@RHODES.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Is the Bible Absolute Truth?

I am new to this list and beg your pardon if I repeat anything
that has already been said.

I attend a Presbyterian affiliated college, where we are required to
have either four semesters of Western thought or four semesters of
religion classes.  I opted for religion.

In our introduction to the Bible, we were told that the Bible is
composed of many types of literature.  If I can recall most of them
they are:  letters, songs, narrative, parables, myths, legends,
apocalypses, prophesies(there may be more, but I think that this
gets most of it).

Anyhow, Genesis is a composit of myth, legend, narrative and song
all of which were handed down orally until several different writers
started collecting the stories.  These writings of different writers
were then compiled by one person or set of people.  For those who
are familiar with this, the people who were involved with the book
of Genesis are differentiated as J(Yahwehists), D(Deuteronomists),
P(Priestly) and E(Elohists) depending on what type of person they
were and their interpretation of God.  J referred to God for example
as Yahweh and E as Elohim.

What this example means to me is that the Bible contains spiritual
truths(and in this respect these are absolutes), but it also
contains other things which are extraneous.  These extra things
can be factually incorrect.

Just because the Bible contains things which are not truth does
not in any way jeopardize that which is true.  I just takes
discernment and study when reading.

Jason
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Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1992 12:32:00 EDT
From:         "Carl A. Lahetta" <U952020@RUTADMIN.BITNET>
Subject:      RE: Siege Mentality

I think this was supposed to be sent to Christia.

-------------------------TEXT-OF-FORWARDED-MAIL--------------------------------
Subject:      Siege Mentality
To:           "Carl A. Lahetta" <U952020>

  I think it was Gloria Steinhem (sp?) and someone else that wants the
state to have control over the children in the US.  Numerous liberal
educators advocate more emphasis on gov't control of children.  As a matter
of fact one educator at a high state level is actually quoted as saying that
the children belong to them not their parents.  And in case you didn't notice
the Democrats endorse the NEA.  The Democracts take parental authority out of
the abortion debate, but if the abortionists botches up guess who pays the
bill, not the state.  The Democracts engineered the welfare system that
awards single parents and does nothing to encourage poor families to stay
together.  Thank God they are realizing this and making a change in the
welfare system.  The Democracts and like minded liberals want the gov't to
pay for artists who produce pornographic crap that is bent on tearing down
society's norms, mainly those that seek to preserve a sense of order and
morality.  And there is more.  In schools it is alright to celebrate Halloween,
the most holy day for Satanists, students cannot pray but they can do yoga and
TM and practice with the Ouija Board.  How's that for a seige mentality?

Carl---+
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