From: minhaszt@ucunix.san.uc.edu (Zafar T Minhas)
Subject: Re: misrepresentation of islam (reply to hossein)
Organization: University of Cincinnati
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 00:00:43 GMT

In article <1993Jan19.175311.14170@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com> javad@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com (Agha Javad) writes:
>
[stuff deleted]
>
>>	hossein once again did not supply quranic verses to show that what 
>>	he is saying is truly a part of islam. he has consistently not 
>>	done so, and the few times that he has, they have always been
>
>No, but I think he has supplied the actual reality of what happens and
>what is subscribed to in the religious part of our society, which is 
>after all, the bottom line.  If Islam is so clear as they say, and can be
>understood by anyone without any ambiguity, there should be no difference.
>If there is in fact a possibility of mistaken interpretation, then that alone
>requires the existence of freedom of speech if anything just to discuss these
>issues.  Needless to say, such freedom exists in very few muslim countries.

you are right. there needs to be freedom of expression to know what, in this
case, the truth about islam is. however, one must differentiate, there is a 
difference in speaking falsehood in order to find the truth, speaking falsehood
and thinking that what is said is the truth, and speaking falsehood while
while knowing that what is said is NOT the truth. and the islamic society does
not allow for the last part.


>
>>	misinterpreted. the punishment for sex outside of marriage is 100 
>>	whips. and for the rest of hosseins discussion of other situations
>
>Are you sure it is that linient? Then what is this business of stoning?
>a figment of our imagination?  Women get stoned for committing adultery,
>or at least killed.  Now you tell me how much it helps these dead women 
>whether or not their execution was truly Islamic or not.  The bottom line
>is, they are DEAD, and their death sentence was due to the laws and rituals
>practiced in their societies, which were Islamic societies committed to Islamic
>law.  So either Islam is vague, or in 1400 years Islamic societies were not
>successful in understanding Islam.  

you have brought up a point that many muslims, even the so-called scholars
are not aware of. i will get to that one later.
>
>>	please read the quran ch. 24, verses 1-20. verses 10-20 talk about 
>>	a particular instance of what happened during the prophet's life
>>	time.
>>
>I'm sure this would make interesting reading, but how does a story about
>particular case which took place 1400 years ago suddenly become an all-
>encompassing law today?

what i was hoping was that you or someone else would read the verses. it talks
about the rumor that aisha was accused of being unfaithful to muhammad. the
quran answered that rumor by saying that unless there is absolute proof of
such a thing. no one has the right to say anything and anyone who does is
committing a sin. you can not just make an accusation about a woman (or anyone
else, whether it be about adultery, or anything else) without the accompanying
proof. if the accuser can not proovide the proof, then that person is punished
with 80 whips and his/her testimony in any future case will never be accepted
unless that person apologizes. 
>
>I separate reading about the prophet's life and observing the harsh realities
>of today.  If they are the same, then you haven't answered Hossein.  If they
>are different after 1400 years of study, debate, and practice, I don't see
>any reason to believe that his life stories will be adhered to today or in
>the future either.

if they are the same, then what i have said is just a small objection to what
hossein said. most educated religious muslims are fed up with the corrupt
governments, the societies that don't give anyone the room to breathe, the
harshness that you talk about. let me tell you, when that episode on 20/20
about the women in pakistan was shown (never mind how biased that piece of
garbage was) my algerian friends were so depressed the next day it was almost
unbelievable. the were giving me hell for what was shown. the only thing i could
say was taht i agreed with them. the lack of islam being practiced today is not
the result of the problems with islam. look man, god said in the quran that
he will not change the lot of the people until they cahnge it for themselves.
and since the situation with the muslim world today is a product of there own
doing for the most part, the only thing i have to say about it is that i don't
like it, but it was brought upon ourselves.
>
>>Viva la egalitarian, tolerant and just society of the
>>Islamic Republic!
>>
>>-hossein
>>
>>	to make it easy, i will give the translation of the verses:
>>
>>	1. a sura which we have sent down and which we have ordained.
>>	in it have we sent down clear signs, in order tht you may receive
>>	admonition.
>>	2.the woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication- flog
>>	each of them with 100 stripes. let not compassion move you in 
>>	their case, in a matter prescribed by all, if ye believe in allah
>>	and the last day: and let a party of believers witness their 
>>	punishment.
>>	3.let no man guilty of fornication or adultery marry any woman 
>>	simlarly guilty, or an unbeliever, nor let any such bur such a
>>	man or an unbeliever marry such a woman. to the believers such a
>>	thing is forbidden.
>>	4. and those who launch a charge against chaste women and produce
>>	not four witnesses, flog them with 80 lashes and reject their
>>	evidence ever after. for such men are wicked transgressors.
>>	5.unless they repent thereafter and mend their conduct for allah
>>	is most forgiving and most merciful.
>>	6.and thos who launch a charge against their spouses and have in
>>	support no evidence but their own, their solitary evidence can be
>>	received if they bear witness four times with an oath by allah that
>>	they are solemnly telling the truth.
>>	7. and the fifth oath should be that they invoke the curse of allah
>>	on themselves if they are telling a lie.
>>	8. but it would avert the punishment on the wife if she bear witness
>>	four times with an oath by allah that her husband is telling a lie.
>>	9.and the fifth should be that solemnly invokes the wrath of allah on
>>	herself if her accuser is telling the truth.
>>	10.if it were not for allah's grace and mercy on you, and that allah
>>	is oft-returning, full of wisdom. you would be ruined indeed.
>>
>
>If it is truly as equal as mentioned in these 10 verses, then can you please
>explain to us why:
>
>1) a woman needs the permission of her husband to leave the country.

i can understand in general that if the wife(or husband) left the country
without letting the other agree to it, there is a problem. to make it an
enforcible rule, no. however this law came from a situation where the women
who converted to islam and wanted to leave mecca, did so in droves. the prophet
said that you all shouldn't just leave for the sake of leaving (their 
husbands were not treating them well). make sure your intentions are good.
or something like that. so the result was that the so-called scholars made
it a rule. which brings up another point that i would like to address.

>2) a woman (until recently) needed the permission of her husband to check
>into a hotel

well now she can go into hotels. 

>3) a woman cannot become a judge

well that is against islam, or at least that is a shiah point of view because
i know that women CAN become judges. one of the prophet's wives was a judge.

>4) a woman is barred from more than half of the majors in the universities

again that is against islam because the prophet said that seeking knowledge
is the obligation of every muslim man and woman.

>5) a woman is required to cover herself more than the man is

there is disagreement with the scholars on this issue. definitely a man is not
allowed to where shorts and he must wear loose clothing as well. some say that
the kufi is necessary, yet others disagree. some scholars say that the face
must be covered and some say that it is not necessary. however to wear boring
black is not a requirement. also though islam has a specific dress code, there
is no punishment in islam for not wearing the dress code (not talking hear 
about skimpy clothes in public or public nudity, that is a totally different
issue altogether). so to force someone at the point of a gun to do so is wrong.
however i have heard of cases where someone just nagged them to death until
they did, though i don't know if that is right or wrong, it doesn't bother me.

>6) a woman inherits only 1/2 of what her brother inherits

a woman gets to keep whatever she inherits while her brother(s) have to
use whateve they get for family maintanance. so if my father passes away, my
sister is allowed to keep whatever she gets in her pocket, while poor me has
to pay for everything. got to go i will be back though.

>7) I have yet to see a woman mullah
>8) I have seen cases in Iran where the wife is battered, has more than 4 
>witnesses of her being battered, asks for a divorce, and cannot get it without
>her husband's signature, whereas he has every right to divorce her without
>her even knowing it?
>
>So, I'm not concerned with what Islam "says", but rather, with what it "does".
>Anybody can say a lot of nice things and talk is cheap.  If what is said is
>not put into practice, then either what is said is vague and subject to
>much interpretation, or the practitioners are low life scumbags.  In either
>case, the end result is the same:injustice and inequality, and I hardly think
>that you or I are interested in such a situation.
>
>>	verses 11-20 talk about a situation where false rumors were started
>>	by muhammad's cotemporaries (muslims and non-muslim) against his
>>	wife aisha.
>>
>
>Again, stories are interesting, but they don't become law automatically,
>and in addition, that was a long time ago, and may have nothing to do with
>what goes on today.
>
>>	please compare the quran, the word of god, says about such 
>>	things and what hossein says islam does. there is no comparison.
>
>Maybe so, but I don't think it is Hossein's fault that Islam isn't
>"doing" what it is "saying".  That's why I separate between one's 
>personal belief in a religion and what that same religion's organized
>institution does.  I respect everyone's personal convictions and religious
>beliefs, but I deplore the actions of many organized religions, in particular
>the mullahs in Iran, since they screwed up our country.
>
>>	and i want people to know once again that hossein's article is
>>	not in the least bit reflective of islam. not necessarily, iranian
>>	society, i am talking strictly about islam.
>>
>I certainly hope you are right.
>
>>zafar
>>
>
>regards,
>
>Agha Javad


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