From: cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok)
Subject: Re: Death of Canada (Was: Death of America)
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 17:28:40 GMT

In article <1992Dec13.074459.18634@news.columbia.edu> gld@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gary L Dare) writes:
>cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok) writes:
>>gld@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gary L Dare) writes:
>>>
>>>So what's the problem?  Take out every other factor that could be
>>>duplicated in the American private system (hard, 'cos there are
>>>things that they do here that we don't do up north, like cut off
>>>and weasel on payments) and ... where's the government?
>>
>>the government decides how much doctors are allowed to be paid
>>for the ten years they spend learning their trade (which is why
>>they are leaving as fast as they can get their green cards).
>
>Myth.  Students pay for their own medical school, and take out loans.
>They are paid almost zero as clinical clerks, and competive pittances
>as interns and residents.  The doctors that are leaving are set to
>retire in warm climate, administrators also heading to warm climates,
>and people who are highly specialized and need to work someplace
>bigger.  (I have doctors close to my family; I also came close to
>marrying an intern/resident once, so I've seen the inside.  Careful!)

the paragraph above is the myth. the doctors in your family may retire
to warm climates, but most of the doctors who leave ontario for the
states do so because they are tired of being told by bureaucrats how
much money they are allowed to earn. a classmate of mine left recently
for california. he won't be back, and it's not because of the weather.

some time about a year ago, a "job fair" for doctors was held in toronto
by Humana, the big US hospital company. they expected about 200 doctors
to show up. 400 showed up. this made the front page of the toronto star,
with everyone screaming "oh, the big bad americans are coming here to
steal our doctors". humana's reply: "steal them? they're begging us to
come up here and give them jobs in the states". of course the classic
socialist response to doctors who don't like living in shackles is
to continually try to eliminate ways to remove those shackles.

>If so many Canadian doctors were coming down in their prime, there
>would be a huge issue in the press and the American medical lobby
>would have headed them off at the border via the INS.

there was an issue in the media. it's just that most of it is
happening slowly. how can the media know each time a doctor leaves
and doesn't return? i'm not saying that canada has bad doctors or
a shortage of them, though this may be the case, i don't know. i do
know that any doctor who practices in ontario is willing to have the
government tell him how much his training, hard work and experience
are worth. i wouldn't.

>>the government decides what the "insurance" will pay for and what
>>it will not.
>
>Compared to what American insurance covers, it is universal.  And
>there is no medical insurance that covers cosmetic surgery.  My
>girlfriend gets what is arguably the best private insurance from her
>father, a research exec with a Euro-American pharmaceuticals and that
>is the only plan that I've seen in America (but I don't know the
>Astors nor Donald Trump) that comes close to what I had with OHIP.

you've avoided the point though. the government still decides.
and there is NOTHING to prevent them from drastically reducing
coverage in the future. in fact, it is likely, considering how the
government does this in just about every other arena.

>>the government decides how many hospital beds are appropriate
>>for another area.
>
>Come again?  Our public and not-for-profit private (e.g., Mount Sinai,
>Davis Jewish General in Montreal) hospital are autonomous.  If public
>or private auditors find that their capacity is being underutilized,
>they suggest closure.  Since administrators are being clamped down
>upon, no longer lowballing their budgets and expecting their deficits
>to be covered.  Makes sense as it keeps my insurance rates down ...

you've picked a couple of exceptions, yet again. when i lived in toronto
there were articles about the shortage of beds in hospitals almost
every day.

>>the government also spends millions of dollars sending patients
>>to US-border hospitals because there is no room for them in
>>canada.
>
>Where?  Where?  This contradicts what you just said ...

not at all. i said the government decides. i didn't say they did a good
job of it! there was a big stink last year when it became known how much
money OHIP (the ontario government's health insurance agency) paid to
send canadians to american hospitals. i'm sorry i don't have access to
the article to quote an exact number, but i believe it was in the hundreds
of millions.

>
>>centrally planned health care.
>
>Nobody tells you how to spend your benefits.

but they tell you how you may not spend them. OHIP covers only certain
things, and it prohibits doctors from providing additional services
for a charge. that is socialized medicine in my book.

>There is no national
>health service.  You are responsible for choosing a doctor and to
>follow or reject his/her care and any referrals.  Where's the central
>planning?

i already explained this. as long as the government controls what is
covered, and how much doctors area allowed to be paid, i consider
it socialized medicine. maybe we just disagree on the term.

>How long have you been out of the country?  I've been gone
>for a while (but keep in touch and visit regularly) and cannot see any
>of what you claim, let alone pander to the conservative/libertarian
>wing.

i left in 1991. i still keep pretty current.
and thanks for showing your true colors
(explicitly, you've done a good enough job implicitly).


>I can respect your opinions, but not to the point of twisting
>things around or (e.g.) to rationalize your newfound libertarianism.

who are you to qualify it is new-found? at least i don't call
you "mccarthy" for identifying it as such.

and i think it is you who has done most of the twisting, mr. "power
saw" and "tolls cost a lot in new york city".

>Certainly people reading this can find their own sources and make up
>their own minds with their own eyes by visiting Canada (by the way,
>with all that expanded business travel due to free trade, the anti-
>Canada propoganda has started to break down as Wall Streeters are
>suddenly realizing that President Bush was hosing them a year ago).

well my point is to counter all the "(sigh) i wish we had health
care like they do up in canada. it's so *wonderful*" garbage i keep
hearing down here. THAT is the propoganda.

--
charles
Xref: sparky talk.politics.misc:63957 talk.politics.drugs:7922