HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Moshe and Yehuda
Date: 17 Apr 92 10:52:50 GMT
Distribution: alt
Organization: University of Turku

Ma'ariv 10th April 1992 (Sofshavua)

         THE AIDS REMAINED IN THAILAND /David Lavi

   Moshe Sabag (?) and Yehuda Belmis (?), two drug addicts from Yavneh, were
   sentenced to 25 years in jail in Thailand for an attempt to smuggle heroin.
   After six years in prison tests arranged for them showed that they had got
   AIDS. The King of Thailand pardoned them. When they returned to Israel, 
   came out that they are healthy.
                        
                        -----------------

Does someone still claim that miracles don't occur anymore?
In Israel that's everyday life. Although they still are calling
Yeshua 'Yeshu' (='Cursed be his name and his memory')  :,-(

? = I wasn't sure which vocals are right in the family names.

- Laura
--
"Ve'ahavta et YHVH Eloheicha bechol-levavcha uv'chol-nafshecha
uv'chol-me'odecha" (Deut. 6:5)

Loving truth is loving God.
                                                                 
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren)
Subject: Re: The heavenly Jerusalem
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 22:13:17 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In article <22426@goofy.Apple.COM> ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik) writes:
                           [...]
>If you would like to live a rich and worryless life, give up on 
>superstition! 

Jesus told this parable about people like you, Kent:

"Then (the rich man) said, 'This is what I'll do.  I will tear down my
barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my
goods.  And I'll say to myself, 'You have plenty of good things laid up
for many years.  Take life easy; eat, drink, and be merry.'

"But God said to him, 'You fool!  This very night your life will be
demanded from you.  Then who will get what you have prepared for
yourself?'

"This is how it will be with anyone who stores up things for himself
but is not rich toward God.'"  (Luke 12:18-21)
-- 
            _.
--Steve   ._||__    Welcome to the World's First GaAs Supercomputer
  Warren   v\ *|    -----------------------------------------------
             V
From: hamilton@hydra.cs.gmr.com (William E. Hamilton CS50 CS/50)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Armageddon NOW!
Date: 14 Apr 92 19:20:47 GMT
Reply-To: hamilton@gmr.com (William E. Hamilton CS50 CS/50)
Organization: GM Research Labs, Warren, MI

In article <1992Apr14.164322.28223@portland.mdc.unisys.com> tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht) writes:
>In article <1992Apr14.114913.11936@trantor.harris-atd.com> sl@ccd.harris.com (Scott Linn) writes:
>>
>>      I would assume that a theology that interprets "generation"
>>as "race" would continue to see persecution of the Jewish race
>>as a fulfillment of prophecy.
>
>It's interesting to see the correlation between bad hermeneutics, which
>allows for bad eschatology, as evidenced by many premils, and the
>resultant anti-semitism.
>
>Because of their presupposition about end time events, some premils are
>forced the interpret the word "genea" as "race" in Matthew 24:34.  That's
>because they don't "literally" believe that "all these things" (Matthew
>24:3-31), came upon "this generation" in AD70.
>
I hadn't heard *that* interpretation before. (Interpreting "genea" as "race").
I thought the more common premil interpretation of "this generation" in
Matthew 24:34 was that "this generation" means the generation which sees
the signs which the Lord enumerated earlier in the same chapter. I presume 
this interpretation runs into difficulty with Matt 24:2, which was fulfilled
in 70AD and therefore the "generation clock" would have started ticking no
later than 70AD, and could hardly be still ticking 2000 years later. 

Tom: Have you heard this interpretation?
     What is your response to it?


Bill Hamilton

>-- 
>Tom Albrecht
From: kjh@pollux.usc.edu (Kenneth J. Hendrickson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Yehudim for Yeshua
Date: 15 Apr 1992 00:40:41 -0700
Organization: EE-Systems, USC, Los Angeles
NNTP-Posting-Host: pollux.usc.edu

In article <9204150407.AA03021@aplpy.jhuapl.edu> levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene) writes:
>Does anyone out there still deny that Messianic Judaism [sic] is a
>Christian movement behind a Jewish facade?  If they're not, then what
>are they doing in the ECFA?

Jews for Jesus is a Christian group, in that they are believers in the
Christ (Greek term), or the Messiah (Hebrew term).  They are Jewish in
that they are physically descended from Avraham.  They are ethnically
Jewish, and are just as Jewish as you are.  I'm sure if you ask them,
they will readily deny that they reject the Rabbinic religion that you
follow.  However, this does not change their geneology.  They are still
Jews.

Why are Jewish Bhuddists, Jewish Hindus, Jewish atheists, Jewish
agnostics, Jewish Muslims, Jewish Bahai's, etc. "bad Jews", but Jewish
Christians "not Jews at all"???  I think you are exhibiting hypocrisy.

-- 
favourite oxymorons:   student athlete,   military justice,   civil war
Ken Hendrickson N8DGN/6       kjh@usc.edu      ...!uunet!usc!pollux!kjh
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: stucki@retina.cis.ohio-state.edu (David J Stucki)
Subject: Re: pesach and easter (resurrection day)
Originator: stucki@retina.cis.ohio-state.edu
Organization: Ohio State University Computer and Information Science
	<1992Apr8.155852.185@portland.mdc.unisys.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 04:03:19 GMT

In article <1992Apr8.155852.185@portland.mdc.unisys.com> tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht) writes:

   In article <9204071421.AA25403@abvax.icd.ab.com> BENNING@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com.mu.edu writes:
   >
   > Some people do seem confused. When asked what day EASTER falls on, I
   > respond, "If you mean the RESURRECTION Day, it falls a few days after
   > the Passover. If you mean the celebration of SPRING, I don't really 
   > know."

   What is RESURRECTION Day?  Is this an annual feast day commanded to be
   observed in the Bible?  I must have missed that commandment.  Where
   is it found?

Resurrection day is the only day that Jesus commanded us to observe
over and above the old testament holidays. It is the day which
commemorates his rising from the dead (on the third day after his
death).

Easter is a pagan holiday that was assimilated by the church to coincide
with resurrection day.

The reason that Easter and Passover don't always coincide is that they follow
different calendars.

dave...


David J Stucki	   /\ ~~ /\  ~~	 /\  ~~	 /\  ~~	c/o Dept. Computer and 
537 Harley Dr. #6 /  \  /  \ 	/  \ 	/  \   	/   Information Science
Columbus, OH  43202   \/    \  /    \  /    \  /    2036 Neil Ave.
stucki@cis.ohio-state.edu ~  \/  ~~  \/	 ~~  \/	    Columbus, OH 43210

There is no place in science for ideas,
there is no place in epistemology for knowledge,
and there is no place in semantics for meanings.  -- W.V. Quine
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: to Tom Albrecht
Date: 17 Apr 92 10:37:12 GMT
Distribution: alt
Organization: University of Turku

The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me
life. Answer me then, if you can; prepare yourself and confront me.
I'm just like you before God; I too have been taken from clay. 
                                         (Job 33:4-6)

The Almighty is beyond our reach and exalted in power; in his justice 
and great righteousness, he does not oppress. Therefore, men revere him,
for does he not have regard for all the wise in heart?  (Job 37:23-24)

Can you fathom the mysteries of God? Can you probe the limits of the 
Almighty? They are higher than the heavens - what can you do? 
They are deeper than the depths of the grave - what can you know?
There measure is longer than the earth and wider than the sea.
                                               (Job 11:7-9)

How you have helped the powerless! (?) How you have saved the arm that is
feeble! (?) What advice have you offered to one without wisdom! (?)
And what great insight you have displayed! (?) Who has helped you utter
these words? And whose spirit spoke from your mouth? 
              (Job 26:2-4; Job speaking to Bildad)

Have you not noticed that these people are saying, 'The LORD has rejected 
the two kingdoms he chose '? So they despise my people and no longer regard
them as a nation. This is what the LORD says: 'If I have not established my
covenant with day and night and the fixed laws of heaven and earth, then I
will reject the descendants of Jacob and David my servant and will not choose
one of his sons to rule over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
For I will restore their fortunes/bring them back from captivity and have 
compassion on them.'       (Jer. 33:24-26)


Are you dead in Christ?

- Laura
--
"Ve'ahavta et YHVH Eloheicha bechol-levavcha uv'chol-nafshecha
uv'chol-me'odecha" (Deut. 6:5)

Loving truth is loving God.
From: tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: re: pesach and easter (resurrection day)
Date: 9 Apr 92 19:51:29 GMT
Organization: Unisys - Applied Technology

In article <1992Apr8.164724.11735@mcs.anl.gov> shaffer@achilles.ctd.anl.gov (Michael A. Shaffer) writes:
>
>Speaking of Passover...as a gentile christian I have always thought
>that we have lost a great deal by ignoring our Jewish heritage. In
>particular since we believe that Jesus was the fulfillment of the
>passover lamb it seems that Passover should be a very important event
>for us. I also note that Communion was instituted at the Passover and
>Jesus said "as often as you do this do it in remembrance of me". I can
>only assume that the this that he referred to was Passover. ...

I would not make such an assumption.

It seems odd to me that Christians would want to look at rabbinic
traditions regarding Passover, most developed long after the time of
Christ, in order to better understand our Lord's sacrifice, and the meaning
of the new covenant in His blood.  As Bruce Tiffany has pointed out on many
occasions, many of the rabbinic traditions were specifically formulated in
opposition to the emerging Christian community of believers.  The modern
Passover is no different.

Jesus adjusted the Passover to suit the needs of the emerging, universal
Church.  Apparently it changed from an annual feast to a weekly one (Acts
2:42), and was simplified considerably on the night before He was betrayed.
Don't forget, He gave the Church His Supper to teach us about of His death
and resurrection, and as often as we eat the bread and drink the cup we
"show His death until He comes again" (I Cor. 11:26).

If you want to learn the true meaning of the sacrificial death of Christ, I
would suggest you read some of the early Church fathers on the subject of
the eucharist.  They are the ones who taught us about the true meaning of
all these events on the life of of Messiah.  You should also be apart
of a fellowship which has frequent (weekly!!) communion.  

-- 
Tom Albrecht
From: kjh@pollux.usc.edu (Kenneth J. Hendrickson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: So many Jews believing ...
Date: 8 Apr 1992 20:51:58 -0700
Organization: EE-Systems, USC, Los Angeles
NNTP-Posting-Host: pollux.usc.edu

In article <9204081256.AA05716@abvax.icd.ab.com> "20583, BENNING, BRUCE" <abvax!iccgcc.decnet.ab.com!BENNING> writes:
>  It is just that there are so many Jewish men and women who are
>  believing in their Messiah that . . .

Praise God!  Hallelujah!  Reading this just made my day!

-- 
favourite oxymorons:   student athlete,   military justice,   civil war
Ken Hendrickson N8DGN/6       kjh@usc.edu      ...!uunet!usc!pollux!kjh
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom)
Subject: Re: pesach and easter (resurrection day)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 01:47:09 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Research

In article <STUCKI.92Apr11133800@retina.cis.ohio-state.edu>, stucki@retina.cis.ohio-state.edu (David J Stucki) writes:

|> This is absurd. Virtually every aspect of the modern Passover is full of
|> deep symbolisms that point to Jesus as the Messiah. If the rabbis had
|> intentionally modified the service to point away from Jesus, they did a
|> very poor job (simple example: ask three rabbis to explain the afikomen
|> and the three matzohs and you'll likely get three answers -- it is not the
|> service that is lacking symbols of Jesus, but the interpretations that are
|> given for the elements of the service.
|> 
Please give even one aspect of the modern Passover which is full
of symbolisms that point to Jesus as the Messiah.


|> 
|> If you want to learn the true meaning of the sacrificial death of
|> Christ, I suggest you read the Torah, the Prophets, and the Writings.
|> They are the ones who taught us about the true meaning of all these
|> events on the life of of Messiah, not the early church fathers.
|> 
Please be more specific.  That's the whole Bible.

-- 
Rob Strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641
IBM Research, 30 Saw Mill River Road, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
From: btiffany@pbs.org
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: (Breaking the) Sabbath
Date: 6 Apr 92 08:48:10 EDT
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA

#1793

From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Subject:Re: (Breaking the) Sabbath
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 92 12:44:16 -0500

>Bruce Tiffany writes:
> 
>> Since the Oral Tradition (which you call "Torah") was written *after*
>> Yeshua came, and was specifically designed around the rejection of Yeshua,
>> this is what one would expect.
> 
>It existed from Sinai, it was written down later on.

Of course!  And with no changes or additions, right?

>> It's pretty arrogant of the rabbis to
>> say only they can decide who the Messiah is.
> 
>How could a document totally unconcerned with Jesus be designed around
>the rejection of Jesus?  Or is the irrelevance of Jesus to Jewish
>Law what irritates you so much?

The rabbis took great pains to portray a future Messiah unlike Yeshua,
unlike the Messiah of the Tanakh.

>> Why don't you quote from sources predating Messiah's first appearing --
>> that is, Yeshua's first coming?
> 
>I did.  You just don't have faith that the oral Torah is from Sinai
>including the laws of the Sabbath which Jesus broke.

No, I don't have such "faith".  Or naivete.

>Other posters have
>triumphantly posted Xian tenets equating him with G-d, but none have
>brought down a gemara or a mechaber or even an acharon his defense.

The Word of God is the standard, not the word of the rabbis.  Why would one
look to those opposed to the Messiah of Israel for a defense?

Rob Levene wants us to believe the rabbis.  (I know, I know:  You don't care
what *we* believe, as long as we don't call it Jewish, or try to get other
Jews to believe it.  Just thought I'd save you the trouble of repeating
yourself.)  Such is the circular reasoning of Rabbinism:  "Yeshua can't be
the Messiah, because we don't believe in Him!"

"See?", said the rabbis, "We haven't written anything supporting Yeshua as
Mashiach, therefore He cannot be the Messiah!"

Well, shucks, that settles it then, doesn't it?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
		Surely our griefs He Himself bore, and our sorrows He carried;
     /\		... He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was
____/__\____	crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being
\  / || \  /	fell upon Him, and by His scourging we are healed.  All of us
 \/--++--\/	like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own
 /\  ||  /\	way; but the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on
/  \ || /  \	Him. ... By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will
----\--/----	justify the many, as He will bear their iniquities.
     \/							-- Isaiah 53
		Bruce Tiffany
From: btiffany@pbs.org
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: re:rob Strom & MJ front speculation
Date: 7 Apr 92 13:30:30 GMT
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA

#1818

>Subject: Re: re:rob Strom & MJ front speculation
>From: strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom)
>Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1992 22:12:33 GMT

>My personal experience is that the Jews for Jesus
>group which converted my brother-in-law was led
>by a spiritual leader who was never Jewish.

Do you mean Moishe Rosen?  Believe me, Moishe is quintessentially Jewish,
a real mensch, and a barrel of laughs to boot.

>A large part of the congregation attending
>the weddings of my brother-in-law and sister-in-law
>were either non-Jewish or so Jewishly unaware
>that they were unfamiliar with the normal
>customs of Jewish weddings.  My sister-in-law
>married a (non-Jewish) minister of evangelical
>persuasions.

So your experience includes Jews in Gentile Christian congregations, but does
not include Messianic Jewish congregations.  Is that correct?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
		Surely our griefs He Himself bore, and our sorrows He carried;
     /\		... He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was
____/__\____	crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being
\  / || \  /	fell upon Him, and by His scourging we are healed.  All of us
 \/--++--\/	like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own
 /\  ||  /\	way; but the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on
/  \ || /  \	Him. ... By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will
----\--/----	justify the many, as He will bear their iniquities.
     \/							-- Isaiah 53
		Bruce Tiffany
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom)
Subject: Re: Response to Rob Strom and Introduction
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 23:53:53 GMT
Distribution: alt
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Research

In article <1992Apr14.094453.15817@pbs.org>, btiffany@pbs.org writes:

|> >> ?  It also says in Psalm 49:7-9:  "No man can by any means redeem his
|> >> brother, or give to God a ransom for him -- for the redemption of his soul
|> >> is costly, and he should cease trying forever -- that he should live on
|> >> eternally; that he should not see the pit."
|> >>

|> 
|> When I wrote the above, I expected you to reply exactly as you did.  But you
|> didn't read it carefully.  The reason no man can redeem his brother's soul
|> is given: it is because it is TOO COSTLY, so that even if he tried forever,
|> he could never pay for it.  That's how deeply in debt each of us is to God.
|> 

But later you contradict yourself and say that Jesus can redeem
everyone.

|> You may not realize it, but elsewhere the Tanakh does say that each man will
|> die for his own sin.  But the overall theme is that everyone is in sin,
|> everyone deserves to die for it, and God won't make you pay for someone
|> else's sin.  Your death is for your own sin.  Not only is your brother's sin
|> too costly to redeem, but you can't even redeem your own soul (otherwise
|> you could pay off your debt and not be deserving of death).  Only a sinless
|> One can pay for the sins of others.

Where do you come up with this last point?


|> >So where is the basis for the claim that it is a Jewish concept that sin can
|> >be transferred?
|> 
|> What do you think was happening when the priest slew the bull and sprinkled
|> the blood on the people and the altar?  What did it mean when he confessed
|> the sins of the people on the scapegoat and sent it off into the wilderness
|> to die?  How can you miss the very central theme of Judaism?  I'm talking
|> about real Judaism, the Judaism with the blood and the sacrifices for sin,
|> not the cheap substitute the Rabbis have tried to sell you, which has its
|> heart and soul cut out.
|> 

So where is the basis for the claim that the sin was transferred?
You always claim that the blood is needed, and then in the same
posting you argue the blood is inadequate.  Make up your mind.


|> And yet the blood of bulls and goats could never take away a man's sin,
|> since bulls and goats are not men.  One of us -- but without sin -- had
|> to be the substitute, and the animal sacrifices were a sort of promise to
|> pay. 

Where do you come up with this?



|> 
|> We don't need to adapt the Word of God to us.  We need to adapt ourselves to
|> the Word of God.  "I AM THE LORD, I CHANGE NOT."  Guess who has to change? :-)
|> 
If you really believed this, then you'd be following all the
mitzvoth from the Torah.

-- 
Rob Strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641
IBM Research, 30 Saw Mill River Road, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
From: btiffany@pbs.org
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: MJ Wedding (was Re: Response to Rob Strom and Introduction)
Date: 7 Apr 92 13:31:53 GMT
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA

#1838

>Subject: MJ Wedding (was Re: Response to Rob Strom and Introduction)
>From: strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom)
>Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1992 19:34:13 GMT

>|> I can't imagine *anyone* -- Jew or Gentile -- in an MJ congregation acting
>|> like the people you describe.  The last MJ wedding I attended had plenty
>|> of "mazal tovs" and "l'chaims", a cantor, and lots of dancing and good
>|> Jewish music.  And why would anyone be afraid to go to a Rabbinic
>|> synagogue, or say Jewish prayers?  To the extent that they are biblical,
>|> we use them a lot.
>|>
>|> What you're describing sounds absurd to me.
> 
>Don't forget my brother-in-law didn't marry a Jewish girl.
>Having this much of a "Jewish wedding" was probably
>as far as her parents were willing to go.

And you can bet they're not involved in Messianic Judaism.  They're probably
members of a Gentile Christian church, and the Jewish aspects of the wedding
were a cultural concession to him.

-- Bruce Tiffany
From: btiffany@pbs.org
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: (Breaking the) Sabbath
Date: 7 Apr 92 13:30:04 GMT
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA

#1817

>Subject: Re: (Breaking the) Sabbath
>From: strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom)
>Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1992 21:57:14 GMT

>You're hedging.  You and Mike claimed that Judaism is
>built around a coverup.  Now you're saying the
>"changes" happened before Jesus, but "in the main"
>it was afterwards.  Since the Messianic prophecies
>aren't the "main" part of Judaism, (a) what do
>you think the other "main" changes are that were
>made as a "coverup", (b) what makes you think that
>there was one well-accepted Messianic tradition
>before Jesus which suddenly changed to a different
>one afterwards?

I didn't say there was *one* tradition (nor did Mike Brown).  My point is
that *after* Yeshua came, the rabbis were falling all over themselves to come
up with completely new and really far-out interpretations to counter belief
in Yeshua.

(It is true that part of this was as a reaction to the terrible things some
people in the Gentile Church had begun doing to and saying about the Jews.)

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
		Surely our griefs He Himself bore, and our sorrows He carried;
     /\		... He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was
____/__\____	crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being
\  / || \  /	fell upon Him, and by His scourging we are healed.  All of us
 \/--++--\/	like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own
 /\  ||  /\	way; but the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on
/  \ || /  \	Him. ... By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will
----\--/----	justify the many, as He will bear their iniquities.
     \/							-- Isaiah 53
		Bruce Tiffany