HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Via: uk.ac.lancashire-poly.prime1; Mon, 5 Oct 1992 17:38:13 +0100
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Date:         Mon, 5 Oct 1992 17:41:00 LCL
From:         The Banshee <SUTTON_R_1@PRIME1.LANCASHIRE-POLY.AC.UK>
Subject:      Fatima

(From the banshee   )

I found the excerpt from the "Secret Letter of Fatima" fascinating and ... well
 I will
certainly be even more dilagent about praying my Rosary daily now.
How about everyone else?
God Bless
Rebecca
/#
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Date:         Mon, 5 Oct 1992 15:09:35 -0400
From:         "Nancy M. Piatkowski" <PIATKONM@SNYBUFVA.BITNET>
Subject:      re:women as priests

Eric- homomophobic AND arrogant- you will not change my stance regardless of
what you say-- call me a heretic, say I'm in error- so what-- you are not my
confessor, my Bishop or God-  you have an opinion, I have an opinion. I will
not change your mind, you will not change mine. Quote away but don't use the
talk down to the "poor misguided woman" tone with me or anyone.  I've asked you
to drop the topic twice but you persist.  GIVE IT UP!
Nancy
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From: bdboyle@erenj.com (Bryan D. Boyle)
Subject: Re: Picking on Jesuits
Organization: ER&E Co., NJ
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1992 14:44:52 GMT

>} The fact that my son and daughters can all be altar servers gives me
>} some hope for the future of the Church.
>

>>	Females are not to be altar servers because they can't be
>>priests.  This abuse has been condemned by the Vatican.
>
>Gordon, do you really believe this or are you just following orders?

IMHO, makes no difference-it is condemned as an abuse of the reforms
suggested by VII, and is binding on the >universal< church. 
Just because the local bishop ignores the order to eliminate the practice
does not make it right.  It may make him popular, but it does not make
it right.  The road to hell probably has a lot of popular people walking its 
path...

>Must you intend to become a priest to be an altar server?

Of course not.

>Is being an altar server a prerequisite to being a priest?

More correctly, the altar server is called an acolyte.  According to
the >General Instructions<, they are the people that assist the priest
in the celebration of the Mass by 1) offering the wine and water to the
priest at the preparation of the sacrifice, 2) performing the Labavo (washing
of the hands...), 3) ringing the bells at the proper points in the Celebration, 4)
holding the censer and incense, 5) other duties to be derived from the
circumstances of the celebration in keeping with the solemnity of the occasion.
The exercise of the order of acolyte is a minor order within the holy orders of
the Church.  The order of acolyte is meant to prepare young men to serve at the altar
of God as defined within the rules of formation for priests 
of the Faith, and confirmed by the 
Magisterium.  As a minor order within Holy Orders, it is unavailable to women.  Is
it necessarily fair?  No (see, I am not a misogynist), but logically (as
opposed to subjectively) since women (as presently constituted within the 
Church) can not become priests, they can't receive the minor orders within
that progression. 


Bryan D. Boyle
Jesuit trained but still a Catholic.
>
>Hmmm, Jesuit Joke and J.J., Makes me smile
A jesuit fell into the ocean while on a cruise, and was was in danger of 
drowning when a great white shark came along and nudged him to shore.  When
asked later why he was the recipient of such largesse by a notorious member
of the animal kingdom, the good father told his interviewer: "Professional
courtesy..." :-)


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Date:         Sat, 3 Oct 1992 00:29:44 EDT
From:         Jim McIntosh <JIM@AMERICAN.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Women are unclean
              3 Oct 1992 02:25:53 GMT from <topcat@HARDY.U.WASHINGTON.EDU>

On Sat, 3 Oct 1992 02:25:53 GMT (Thanh - Vincent) said:
>a woman can't be a priest because it wouldn't be "right" .  she can't be
>jesus because jesus was a man...

On this mailing list we may sometimes loose sight of the fact that the
issues we debate are also being discussed at the highest levels of the
Church:

     BALTIMORE BISHOP CALLS FOR WOMEN PRIESTS

     The church should admit women to the priesthood because
     "justice demands it" and "the pastoral needs of the church
     require it," Baltimore Auxiliary Bishop Francis Murphy said
     recently. In declaring his disagreement with authorities in
     Rome, Murphy said he considers the question "as important as
     the issue Paul raised with Peter: namely, the admission of
     gentiles into Christianity."

     He stated his position in a Sept. 25 Commonweal magazine
     article that sharply criticized the latest draft of the
     proposed U.S. bishops' pastoral on women. And he called for the
     formation of an international commission to review the issue.

     Following publication of Murphy's remarks, Baltimore Archbishop
     William H. Keeler said he fully backs church teaching on the
     ordination of women.

     Meanwhile, the U.S. bishops' National Advisory Council has
     urged the bishops to table the letter on women, saying its tone
     is "defensive and authoritarian rather than pastoral." The
     council is composed of priests, religious and laypeople.

     -National Catholic Reporter, October 2, 1992, page 11.

Jim McIntosh SFO (jim@american.edu)
The American University
Washington DC 20016-8019 USA
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Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 23:29:20 -0700
From:         "(Gordon C. Zaft)" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>
Subject:      About kneeling...

On Sep 29,  1:55am, noao!julie@SKATTER.USASK.CA wrote:
} Subject: About kneeling...
} 	Maybe I'm the only one who feels this way, but when I kneel in
} church I am in too much pain to be really concentrating on the service.
} I can't help but think that if I'm concerned with whether or not I'm
} going to pass out, I'm not going to be spiritually involved.  In these
} circumstances is my not kneeling indicative of disobedience?
}
} 	I don't know, maybe I just have an unusually weak back...
}-- End of excerpt from noao!julie@SKATTER.USASK.CA

	Heaven's sake!  Don't hurt yourself over it!  If it is painful
for you, I suggest a prayerful sitting pose with bowed head, or if you
can manage it, use the kneeler but rest your backside on the pew.

GZ

--
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
                 Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.
Have you locked your file cabinet?
From: elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: women as priests
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 92 07:15:45 CDT
Organization: Minas Tirith BBS (Public Access Usenet for New Orleans)

"Nancy M. Piatkowski" <PIATKONM@SNYBUFVA.BITNET> writes:

> Eric- I thought I asked you to drop it--- I understand you can't abide the
> thought of women as priests- The church can still change the law maybe not
> within my life time but at some point she will- I do not see the current
> prohibition of women as priest as something absolute handed down by God- all
> your scriptural reasoning doesn't wash with me- It is law made by MEN- and
> enforced by MEN- am I not correct?  but then again I've been corrupted by Mat
> Fox and the Berrigans what else can I say *<8+}
> Nancy

Nancy, I apologize for this.  I'm afraid that Eric repeating his position is
in reply to my post.  I was attempting to try to solidify some points on both
sides and forgot that debate doesn't matter to the ultra-conservatives.  It's
wrong because it's wrong.



|Edward J. Branley         elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us|
|Seashell Software, Metairie, LA            +1-504-455-5087|
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Date:         Sun, 27 Sep 1992 23:54:38 -0700
From:         "(Gordon C. Zaft)" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>
Subject:      Re: Half full/Half empty
              (Sep 24,  8:51pm)

On Sep 24,  8:51pm, "()" wrote:
} Subject: Re: Half full/Half empty
} The more of this discussion I read, the more I imagine Jesus on the altar,
} handing out communion, refusing to share the host with my husband, a
 Methodist,
} a lover of Jesus and an untiring worker trying to share Jesus by helping
} others in the world. It doesn't compute. I just can't see Jesus saying,
 "Sorry,
} Ken, this isn't for you."
}-- End of excerpt from "()"

	Can't you picture Jesus saying, "Ken, This is my Body".  If Ken
really believes it IS his body, then why isn't he Catholic?  Or at least,
does Ken really believe the Church's teaching on the Real Presence?

--
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
                 Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.
Learned men are the cisterns of knowledge, not the fountainheads.
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From: dschenke@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Dennis L Schenkel)
Subject: jokes
Organization: The Ohio State University
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 22:31:02 GMT

I'm glad to see that the newsrgroup has taken on a decidedly lighter tone of
late.  With that in mind, I would like to share one of my favorite jokes.

Cardinal Ratzinger, an archbishop and a priest all died on the same day and 
found themselves in the waiting room outside the Holy Court of God's Judgment, 
waiting for their audiences with the Almighty.

The priest is called in first. He is with our Just and Merciful God for two 
hours and returns.  "Whew!" he exclaims.  "Only two months in Purgatory, and 
then I'm in!"  And so he wanders off to Purgatory.

The archbishop is called in next. He converses with our All-loving and 
All-knowing God for four hours and returns.  "Whew!" he says.  "Only four 
months in Purgatory, and then I'm bound for Heaven!" And so he wanders off to 
Purgatory.

Cardinal Ratzinger finally has his audience.  He spends the next six hours with
the Divine Creator of all things.  At the end of that time, God comes out and 
says, "I don't know what happened in there, but I just got assigned six months 
in Purgatory."

Pax, Dennis Schenkel ( dschenke@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu )
-- 




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Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 13:53:56 -0700
From:         "(Gordon C. Zaft)" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>
Subject:      jokes

Okay, here's my contributionto the joketelling.

Scene: Jesus speaking to the woman caught in adultery.  "let the person
without sin cast the first stone."

Rock comes flying over Jesus' shoulder, hits woman square in forehead
and knocks her out.

Jesus looks behind Him, yells "Mom!"

[Let's please not start an argument about Mary and impeccability...
it's just a joke!]

	Does anyone remember the joke that has the punchline about
'who does he think he is, Jesus Christ?' 'No, hethinks he's
Arnold Palmer'.  It's a golf joke, obviously....

GZ

--
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
                 Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.
Love and scandal are the best sweeteners of tea.
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Date:         Mon, 5 Oct 1992 09:02:45 +1000
From:         brendan@CS.UQ.OZ.AU
Subject:      help

Can anyone help me by giving me the address of whoever
controls this list so I can get my name off it?

I am currently on the list at an aliased address and
cannot use the automated method.

Brendan
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center
Date: Thursday, 1 Oct 1992 10:57:48 EDT
From: Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Parish hopping


A Catholic is free to attend Mass at any Catholic church.  He is not
limited to his own parish.  Normally, except when traveling, a Catho-
lic will attend Mass in his own parish, but if this is a problem
because of liturgical abuses in his parish he may attend Mass else-
where.  However, a Catholic is a member of the parish in which he
resides.  He ought to register as a member of the parish, but is a
member whether he registers or not.  According to my pastor a Catho-
lic who wants to register as a member of a parish other than that in
which he resides ought to have the permission of the pastor of his
parish of residence. (Note that there can be other reasons for wanting to
change one's parish than dissatisfaction with the way things are done
in one's own parish.) The 1917 Code of Canon Law was firm on this.
The current 1983 Code is more ambiguous and makes it more a matter of
courtesy, but my pastor will not accept someone from outside the
parish's boundaries without a letter from the person's parish. (My
pastor is orthodox and obedient, for which I thank God.  The fact
that I have to thank God for that instead of taking it for granted
shows the serious condition the Church is in today.  However, while
this is grounds for regret, it is not ground for despair.  As anyone
familiar with Church history knows, there have been similar and worse
problems in earlier centuries.  The Church eventually cleaned up
those problems with God's grace and will clean up the current prob-
lems, too.)

A Catholic ought not to have to go outside his parish to attend a
Mass celebrated properly in accordance with the Church's liturgical
rules.  A number of conciliar and post-conciliar documents say that
Catholics have a right to have a proper liturgy, to have sound doc-
trine preached to them, etc.  If someone is in a parish in which
these rights are being violated he should speak with the pastor, or
write him a letter.  If that does not help he should appeal to the
bishop.  Unfortunately, all too often nowadays that won't help ei-
ther.  The Saint Joseph Foundation was set up "to defend Catholic
truth and uphold Catholic rights".  Its activities include filing the
canon law equivalent of lawsuits in specific cases of egregious
abuses.  It also publishes the newsletter _Christefidelis_ which is
sent to people who send tax-deductible contributions.  Anyone inter-
ested in further information can contact The Saint Joseph Foundation,
4211 Gardendale, Suite A-100, San Antonio, TX 78229  Phone: 512 614-
3673 FAX: 512 614-3675 or to The St. Joseph Canonical Foundation of
Canada, La Fondation Canonique St. Joseph du Canada, P.O. Box 9274,
Ottawa, Ontario K1G 3T9, Canada  Phone: 613 737-3709.

Marty Helgesen
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From: bdboyle@erenj.com (Bryan D. Boyle)
Subject: Re: A joke
Organization: Exxon Research and Engineering Co., NJ
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 19:02:00 GMT

In article <BvpKqo.G4o@acsu.buffalo.edu> gorman@acsu.buffalo.edu (Anne-Marie K. Gorman) writes:
>
>The Holy Family are at home in Nazareth, and they receive three visitors:
>a Franciscan, a Benedictine, and a Jesuit.  The Franciscan dances in, 
>kisses the Child, and offers Him a flower picked from the meadows.  The
>Benedictine processes in, bows reverently to the Child, and offers Him
>a beautifully decorated chalice.  The Jesuit bustles in and says, "Madam,
>about your son's education...."

No doubt concerning their institutions of higher learning like Boston 
College, Georgetown, or my alma mater, Fordham...just wait 'till the
alumni associations finally track you down...

Bryan D. Boyle
Jesuit educated, please don't hold that against me...


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Date:         Sat, 3 Oct 1992 20:09:00 EDT
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From:         Liz Moreau <EMOREAU@UMASSD.EDU>
Subject:      Re: pre-vat II?

>     I certainly dont think St. Ignatius was recommending following bad
>clergy into sin. It is a warning to avoid individual interpretations
>of Scripture.

Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear on my feelings.  I merely wanted to point
out that priest are human too and they do fall into sin just like we
do.  They are not perfect anymore than we are.

> You say "if the heirarchy's teachings go along with the Bible,
>then its fine with me." This would give you the same authority that the
>Magisterium of the CHurch has, as *you* would have to judge whether or not
>they agreed with the Bible. We as individuals don't have this authority.
>The official teachings of the CHurch do, as handed down from Jesus directly
>to Peter.

I have this authority!!!!  Jesus told me so.  He said he would give me
wisdom and open the Word to me.  All I have to do is accept it.  *I*
am responsible for me.  On judgement day you cannot claim the church
led you astray.  It won't wash.  We were all given free wills.  Our
salvation is not up to the church.  Look at the Pharasees.  They were
responsible for teaching the laws to their people.  They didn't do too
good of a job.  They were teaching people laws and not the intent
behind the law.  The Lord opened the Word to them, in spite of the
Pharasees.  It was meant for each and every one of us.

Thank you Karl.

						God Bless,

							Liz Moreau
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Date:         Fri, 2 Oct 1992 09:13:00 CDT
From:         ASDXMHK@MVS.UCC.OKSTATE.EDU
Subject:      Diaconate

Greetings,

I have been monitoring this list for a while and have enjoyed the
spirited discussions.  Recently several posts have appeared in
regard to the "Permanent" Deacon.  Since I am in my second year of
preparation for this program I know something of what the Deacon is
(or at least should be) about.

The Office of Deacon was restored in principle by the council of Trent.
They however did not include the guidelines by which this should happen.
Vatican II, at the urging of especially the German Catholics, provided
the guidelines under which the diaconate could begin anew.

In the United States not all dioceses have adopted the restored
"Permanent" Deacon.  The fall of the Deacon during the middle ages
had much to do with the jealousies which ensued between the Deacons
and Priests.  These jealousies are still seen within the church.  I feel
this has been part of the reason that universal acceptance of this
office has been slow in coming.  The "permanent" Deacon should not be
confused with the "transitional" Deacon which is a step leading toward
the priesthood.

The Deacon is ordained to service for the church.  This service is
manifested in the varying ministries in which Deacons are involved.
Deacons fulfill a wide range of functions within the church today.
Liturgical functions are obviously a portion of their office but
the main thrust of their efforts are directed toward specific
ministries.

Deacons may perform Baptisms, Weddings and Funerals.  They are
considered to be "ordinary" ministers of the Eucharist.  They may
not administer Last Rites.  They cannot perform the consecration
during a Mass.  The Deacon should not be viewed a replacement for
the Priest, but rather a partner in the guidance and shepherding of
the parish.  The Deacon pledges obedience to the Bishop and not to the
parish priest, therefore both are accountable to their Bishop, from
which they receive their authority.

There is much more to the office of Deacon that I did not include
in this post.  If you have specific questions I will be glad to
respond to them as best I can.

Sincerely yours in Christ,

Mike Kerntke (asdxmhk@osucc)
Oklahoma State University
Stillwater, Oklahoma 74078 USA
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From: dmczap@wookie.cambridge.ibm.com ()
Subject: Re: sex
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 92 18:01:22 GMT
Organization: IBM T. J. Watson Research

In article <BvGKv7.Ayo@acsu.buffalo.edu>, v5875bza@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Michael M Gorman Jr) writes:

|> 
|> Am I being too cranky to suggest that we need stricter discipline?  If we
|> make it so easy to be Catholic that there's no difference between being
|> Catholic and not being Catholic, then people will leave the Church--and
|> who can blame them?  Why get up early on Sunday when it makes no difference
|> anyway?
|> 
|> Comments are invited on this!  How do we draw the line between being
|> forgiving and open, on the one hand, and overly tolerant, on the other?
|> 

Perhaps if the Church's law (I guess I don't believe God considers passive
contraception a sin and separating me from God) were not so strict, it would
actually bring people back to the Church. Although I have always been a 
practicing RC and enjoyed my faith, I find some of the Church's laws that I
can't reconcile as God's laws tend to drive me further away from
the RCC. I must admit,
tho, from comparing my faith with some posters here, that I spend more of my
time learning about God/Jesus from Bible study, music, etc, than I do learning
about what the RCC says it takes to be a Roman Catholic. 

I agree that some 'laws' ARE binary, and should be striclty upheld. The question
is, as always, on how to decipher the gray areas. If the church deems some
rules as okay to "softly" enforce, perhaps it doesn't qualify
as a church law/sin.
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Date:         Fri, 2 Oct 1992 14:15:38 -0400
From:         URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM
Subject:      Re: Mary

Eric, I think you've been reading too many Peter Kreeft books. :-)

From your reasoning we could call Joseph the 'Father of God'. We would
not be entirely wrong unless you consider a parent only those who have
genetic links to a person. The question of Jesus' genetic links I'll
let other decide, and also those of James:-) - J.J.
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Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 21:03:09 -0500
From:         Amanda Walker <amanda@INTERCON.COM>
Subject:      Bishop Spong

> [...] Bishop Spong attacking Scripture. [...]

If you think that Bishop Spong is attacking scripture, you highly misjudge
his writings and statements.  Now, he may attack certain fundamentalist
*interpretations* of Scripture, to be sure, but that is a far cry from
attacking Scripture itself.

Have you read any of his books, or listened to him speak?  If not, you might
want to reserve judgement.


Peace,

Amanda Walker
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Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 08:34:40 -0400
From:         "Nancy M. Piatkowski" <PIATKONM@SNYBUFVA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: altar girls

Gordon- thanks for the offer of the document but right now my pastor and myself
(as a member of the parish council) have more to worry about than are we
defying some document from Rome as we try to figure out how to pay our bills,
teach our children, feed the hungry, comfort the sick and dying, bury the dead
and still have the energy to celebrate a joyful liturgy of Word and Eucharist
for a parish of 3200 families- with at this point two priests.  We are also
attempting to prepare the parish for lay leadership of prayer and communion
services without a priest because the day is coming when our diocese will not
have enough ordained male celibates to staff all the parishes and the people
need to be prepared-
Nancy
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