From: pkteagarden@bobcat.lmc.edu (Phil Teagarden)
Subject: Re: Doubts
Organization: Lees-McRae College, Banner Elk, NC
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 02:27:12 GMT

In article <Dec.11.10.48.00.1992.2108@ruhets.rutgers.edu> farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Lorenzo Farris) writes:

>In article <pkteagarden.86@bobcat.lmc.edu>, pkteagarden@bobcat.lmc.edu (Phil Teagarden) writes:
>:In article <Dec.7.11.20.59.1992.11747@ruhets.rutgers.edu:farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Lorenzo Farris) writes:
>:
>:   I see nothing wrong with that.  But, I feel that some people might want 
>:   to know more.  I know I do.
>:

>You are not talking about knowing. You are engaging in speculation. If
>you try to put this subject on the level of religion, you can never
>make any progress. Faith is not something to be transmitted through
>reason. 


>However, what you can do that would be constructive is think of how
>you could provide evidence for your thesis. What form would this
>evidence take? How could one try to gather it? Could you go obe while
>praying earnestly for God's protection? Etc.

>:>Are you suggesting that oobe is equivalent, or related to, demonic
>:>possession? In any case, this is a very limited reply. Eastern schools
>:>have explored these topics in great and gory detail.
>:
>:   I really don't know.  But, it's a possibility.
>:
>Again, what form would the evidence take?
>:
>:   You are very safe there.  What a brave challenge!  Thats what 
>:   metaphysical is--something that cannot be proven scientifically.  Yes, 
>:   I am a Christian.  But, that doesn't preclude me searching for answers 
>:   or seeking TRUTH.  
>:

>How do you expect to get any answers without critical examination of
>evidence? How do you expect to get at truth through speculation? If
>you are looking for divine revelations, perhaps you should ask how to
>get them on soc.religion.christian. 

>:  I'm really not consciously trying to be coy.  Nor am I trying to 'save' 
>:  people from 'damnation'.  But, the rest may be true.  It's just that I 
>:  feel that some of the oobe's might have some explanations in Christian 
>:  metaphysics.  But, You may be right, maybe we shouldn't speculate 
>:  beyond empirical data.       
>:  
>:  Sounds like you'd prefer that we limit our talk about experiences--and not 
>:  explanations.    
>:

>Let me tell you where I'm coming from, here. While I feel the core
>message of Christianity is true, I think on the balance, man's
>interpretation of Christianity is a disaster. It has been a political
>institution that wants to control every one, through guilt and fear.
>The common person has been scared away from any potentially empowering
>experience by superstitious fear of hell and devils. Anyone who thinks
>for hirself and doesn't tow the church line is either cowed into
>submission or kicked out, often through that one-way door known as
>death. Uncounted numbers of women died as a result of such
>superstitious fears, burned as witches. How many heretics have been
>killed, their crime being to think a little differently? 

>My point is not that anyone will get burned at the stake, here. My
>point is, why do you want to introduce discussion of demonic
>possession here, if not to scare others and indulge your own
>irrational superstitious fears? I have not yet heard of any evidence
>that even remotely points to demonic intervention on this group.

>So, if you want to discuss rationally, based on evidence, I'm ready.
>If you want to introduce Christianity's message of fear here, I am not
>going to be very sympathetic.

>:
>:>Are you intrigued enough to seek out the relevant experiences? Or do
>:>you want just to watch from the sidelines?

   But, aren't obe's metaphysical too?  We only have practioneer's word for 
these phenomena.  You seem to be interested in only empiracle data for 
"scientific" evidence...which is expected of scientist (I know, I'm one 
myself).  Since there are no hard core data available, that leaves us with  
limited resources in search of TRUTH...including speculation.  Science and 
metaphysics just seem to not mix well.  Yes, I am intrigued with the 
subject, but I don't want to watch from the sidelines.    
   
What I am going to say doesn't directly affect the realm of obe's, but 
may justify WHY I feel that this phenomen MAY be the result of demonic 
forces.  First of all, most of the perversions of Christianity, including 
fear, persecutions, etc..., have occurred in history as the result of 
ignorant and despotic men.  Too many people have labeled all such 
perversions as being "what Christianity is all about".  Secondly, your 
conception of a demon seems to be an evil entity that frightens and 
terrorizes people.  If there is a "Satan", as Christian dogma has it, could 
he be cleaver enough to disguise himself as being brilliantly gifted with 
all sorts of powers--especially of deceit?  Now, I know.  You are going to 
say that you don't care for that kind of speculation.  I understand that,
and I know it's not "scientific".  I think it's unfortunate that you see 
Christianity the way you do. But, I can hardly blame you.  I feel that 
you are going to suggest that this kind of speculation doesn't belong on 
this Newsgroup (probably alt.religion).  I just tried to offer an 
UNSCIENTIFIC possibility to an UNSCIENTIFIC phenomen.  So, I won't bring it 
up anymore.

   Anyway, I appreciate your thoughts and very much respect your knowledge 
on this subject.   

   ...Phil Teagarden
      pkteagarden@bobcat.lmc.edu

>Please respond to this question, as well.

   



>                       -Lorenzo
>-- 
>"Once upon a time men were possessed    ******************************
>by devils. Now they are not less        *  Lorenzo Farris            *
>obsessed by ideas" -CG Jung             *  farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu *
>                                       ******************************
Newsgroups: alt.out-of-body