HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
Subject: Re: Sufism and Islam
Date: 26 Dec 92 21:13:13 GMT
Organization: Monash University General Access Unix
NNTP-Posting-Host: geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu
Originator: gwydion@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu

In <ZEESHAN.92Dec10191342@occs.cs.oberlin.edu> RBNXHS%ROHVM1.bitnet@cunyvm.cuny.edu writes:


>     In further proof of the fact that the Sufis consider that
>there is only one true path, consider the following lines of
>Rumi, one of the greatest Sufi poets and mystics:

>     The Way has been marked out.
>     If you depart from it, you will perish.
>     If you try to interfere with the signs on the road, you will
>be an evil-doer.

Thanks for a very interesting and informative article.  However,
regarding Jalal ad-Din Rumi, I have read that within his circle he had
accepted Christians as students.  If this were true, wouldn't this
contradict some of the statements made regarding Sufism being a perhaps
"purer" Islam, for if this were so, how could Christians be expected to
follow the Sufi path if they had not yet even accepted the Islamic
faith?

[By the way, despite my sig, I am not a traveller upon the Sufi path, I
am just your average Muslim.  However, I am very interested in
Tasawwuf ("Sufism").]

 Fred Rice
 darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au   

*****************************************************************
*  `If a withering leaf says by its appearance that it needs 	*
*  water, because you have the power to provide it you also 	*
*  have the duty to do so, as these "words" of the leaf are the *
*  manifestation of the command of the creator of the leaf,	* 
*  and are addressed to you.  If you insist upon a personal	*
*  command from the Originator, ask why the means of		*
*  communication has been placed before you.  Is it there for	*
*  you to neglect?'						*
*			Hadhrat Bahaudin Naqshband of Bukhara	*
*****************************************************************
From: ahmad@ra.cs.umb.edu (Ahmad Hashem)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
Subject: alt.wanted.moslem.gay
Date: 21 Dec 92 18:52:27 GMT
Organization: Oberlin College Computer Science
Originator: zeeshan@occs.cs.oberlin.edu (Zeeshan Hasan -Moderator)
X-Posted-From: occs.cs.oberlin.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu


Does anyone have advice as to how to deal with the guy who has created
the newsgroup alt.wanted.moslem.gay to air his prejudice and disgusting
remarks about Islam?  The newsgroup is completely empty except for 
himself, and I suggest that no one posts anything there.  Let's leave
him barking to himself.

I just don't understand how it is possible for an idiot to form a group of 
his own completely empty except for himself to distribute his own prejudiced
views.  Isn't anyone concerned about such waste of the net's resources?

Do you think it is a good idea to write to the operator at the school where
the guy is?  It is Carnegie Mellon, and one hopes such a reputable school
would not allow such garbage to come out of it.  The email address
of the operator is: operator@andrew.cmu.edu

Please give advice.  If there's anything we can do, let's do it.  If not,
I strongly suggest to leave the guy alone.  He is not worth responding to.

Assalamu alaikum, Ahmad
From: H Oral <emev02@castle.ed.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: alt.wanted.moslem.gay
Originator: zeeshan@occs.cs.oberlin.edu (Zeeshan Hasan -Moderator)
Organization: Oberlin College Computer Science
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 20:09:30 GMT
X-Posted-From: occs.cs.oberlin.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu


In article <1992Dec21.061543.10332@cs.umb.edu> ahmad@ra.cs.umb.edu (Ahmad Hashem) writes:
>

Probably you have seen many groups such as alt.stupidity, alt.fun, etc.
This is one of the extension of the western civilisation which thinks
that the way to protect yourself from aids is through "safer sex."
They do not think about the root of the problem.  If a civilisation 
disregard the order from Allah(SWT) and go on with producing its
own laws whether moral or not, you will probably see even worse
examples if you have time to see.

Wassalaam,
Hamid
From: gslade@nowhere.uucp (Greg Slade)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Missions
Date: 24 Dec 92 07:14:17 GMT
Organization: Cyberstore Online Information Systems Inc.

Shannon Chris Saltzman (phoenix@cwis.unomaha.edu) wrote:
: 
:  I would like to start a discussion on Missions that I hope will enlighten
: myself and others.(to enlighten me e-mail me and give hedrick a break!)
:
If you want to be part of an extended discussion on Missions, ask bill@gmi.org
to include you in the mailing list for snet.misc


:  My church is big on overseas missions. They seem so overjoyed at going
: overseas that they seem (at times) unconcerned with America. I believe
: this is dangerous. My belief is that we need to educate this country on
: the truth about Christ. Once we have gathered Christ's flock here,we can
: pull together and change the world for Christ.

Since 90% of Christian workers in the world are in North America, which has
maybe 5% of world population, it seems to be just a tad unfair to expect the
rest of the world to hear the gospel until the last stubborn atheist or agnostic
in North America believes.  Who says that God loves Americans so much that He
wants the gospel to be proclaimed again and again in America while there are
peoples in other parts of the world who have never had a chance to hear the
gospel *once*?
From: krueger@galileo.physics.arizona.edu (Ted Krueger)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Tongues
Date: 4 Jan 93 02:40:15 GMT
Organization: University of Arizona, Tucson AZ

There are three kinds of "tongues" spoken of in the New Testament.

1) Speaking in other tongues, understandable languages, as was 
   done on the day of Pentecost,

2) The gift of tongues, with interpretation, as listed in 1Cor 12.

3) and, the "prayer language" with which you edify yourself, as 
  Paul said, "when you speak in tongues, you edify yourself," and 
  "I'm glad I pray in tongues more than you all."

Feel free to e-mail or post other questions considering tongues.

krueger@writeon.physics.arizona.edu

Ted

-- 
So the Maples formed a union, and demanded equal rights, "The Oaks are just 
too greedy.  We will make them give us light!"  Now there's no more Oak 
oppression, for they passed a noble law.  And the trees are all kept equal, 
by hatchet, axe and saw.     -  Rush, The Trees
From: ward@sun17.vlsi.uwaterloo.ca (Paul A.S. Ward)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Missions
Date: 24 Dec 92 06:55:18 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo

In article <Dec.22.03.29.46.1992.13167@geneva.rutgers.edu> phoenix@cwis.unomaha.edu (Shannon Chris Saltzman) writes:

> My church is big on overseas missions. They seem so overjoyed at going
>overseas that they seem (at times) unconcerned with America. I believe
>this is dangerous. My belief is that we need to educate this country on
>the truth about Christ. Once we have gathered Christ's flock here,we can
>pull together and change the world for Christ.

Without ignoring the fact that America does have problems, just how many 
times must the Gospel be preached there before the rest of the world gets
to hear it once?
From: conan@durban.berkeley.edu (David Cruz-Uribe)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: 5 points of Arminius
Date: 4 Jan 93 02:59:23 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Math. Department.

The moderator made a nice summary of the views of Arminius and
concluded by saying that they were "roughly similar to those of
Orange and Trent".  I concur, and find them to be consonant with
Catholic thought as I understand it.  

My question is this:  while the internal debates of the Reformation
were to some extent carried out separate from and debates/polemics
with Catholics, did any Catholic theologians respond to Arminius;
conversely, did he ever enter into debate with Catholics on this
issue?  

Yours in Christ,

David Cruz-Uribe, SFO

[The only discussion with Catholics I know of was with someone
believed to be a Jesuit, in one of the public debates.  However I
believe he was baiting Arminius, not arguing for a specific view.
--clh]
From: stoy@au-bon-pain.lcs.mit.edu (Joe Stoy)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Christmas on the 25th.  Why? (was Re: Messianic Jews and
Date: 24 Dec 92 06:55:35 GMT
Organization: MIT Lab for Computer Science, Cambridge, Mass.

Dan Lieuwen writes:
>
>							     the dating
>for Christmas and the dating for the feast day of John the Baptist are
>related.
>

I don't think you need to bring the solstices into this, appropriate though
that symbolism no doubt is.  We celebrate the Annunciation (25 March) of our
Lord the biologically appropriate nine months before we celebrate His Nativity
(25 December), just as we celebrate the conception of our Lady (8 December)
nine months before her nativity (8 September).  Since at the Annunciation it
was then "the sixth month with her that was called barren", St John the
Baptist duly turns up three months later (24 June), six months before
Christmas.

The remarkable thing is that liturgical babies always arrive exactly on the
due date!

Happy Christmas!

joe stoy
From: O1ADAMS@VM1.CC.UAKRON.EDU (Debbie Adams)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Preaching to the Moderns
Date: 24 Dec 92 07:19:31 GMT

(Michael Siemon wrote:)

>Let me repeat: I see Christ as Mary's son, and Mary as _theotokos_.
>Now -- what has *virginity* to do with it?  If Charley can cite
>some patristic source that finds the *virginity* of Mary somehow of
>importance in establishing Jesus' humanity, I will be very interested.

In the Life Application Bible Matthew 1:18 states, 'This is how the
birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be
married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to
be with child through the Holy Spirit.'

The references below state:

1:18 There were three steps in a Jewish marriage.  First, the two
families agreed to the union.  Second, the public announcement was
made.  At this point, the couple was "pledged."  This was similar to
engagement today except that their relationship could be broken only
through death or divorce (even though sexual relations were not yet
permitted).  Third, the couple was married and began living together.
Because Mary and Joseph were engaged, Mary's apparent unfaithfulness
carried a severe social stigma.  According to Jewish civil law, Joseph
had a right to divorce her, and the Jewish authorities could have had
her stoned to death (Deuteronomy 22:23,24).

1:18  Why is the virgin birth important to the Christian faith?  Jesus
Christ, God's Son, had to be free from the sinful nature passed on to
all other human beings by Adam.  Because Jesus was born of a woman,
he was a human being; but as the Son of God, Jesus was born without any
trace of human sin.  Jesus is both fully human and fully divine.
From: conditt@tsd.arlut.utexas.edu (Paul Conditt)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: MAX LUCADO'S _GOD_CAME_NEAR_
Date: 22 Dec 92 08:15:47 GMT
Organization: Applied Research Laboratories, University of Texas at Austin

[Paul Conditt has listed several books by Max Lucado]

I was looking through my books at home this past weekend and found
one more - "Applause of Heaven.  It is Max's second most-recent.  Also,
while preparing for my Sunday school class last night, I was reading
through God Came Near.  There are a few chapters in there with 
excellent Christmas messages.  Read it!

===============================================================================
Paul Conditt		Internet: conditt@titan.tsd.arlut.utexas.edu
Applied Research	Phone:	  (512) 835-3086   FAX: (512) 835-3416/3259
  Laboratories		Fedex:	  10000 Burnet Road, Austin, Texas 78758-4423
University of Texas	Postal:	  P.O. Box 8029, Austin, Texas 78713-8029
Austin, Texas <----- the most wonderful place in Texas to live
no witty sayings or quotes here
From: labson@borneo.corp.sgi.com (Joel Labson)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Do We Need To Pray????
Date: 4 Jan 93 02:44:04 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.

I'd like some discussions on this....

If God knows what we need, don't you think that He will just give it to
us automatically without praying for it??????

I think we just need to pray for what we want...NOT what we need....??

Any comments, agree,disagree,don't know,maybe ??????? - jrl

--
From: anthony@cs.uq.oz.au (Anthony Lee)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Request for Michael Card's music
Date: 22 Dec 92 08:09:19 GMT
Reply-To: anthony@cs.uq.oz.au

I recently heard the song "Jesus Loves Me" by Michael Card.  I
was wondering if someone could post me (email) the chords to the
songs as I like to play it on my guitar.

Thank you 
--
Anthony Lee (Time Lord Doctor) (These are my opinions !)
email: anthony@cs.uq.oz.au	voice:+(61)-7-3651204 FAX:+(61)-7-3651999
SNAIL: Department Computer Science, The University of Queensland, 
       St Lucia, Qld 4072, Australia
From: rayssd!esther@uunet.uu.net (Esther A. Paris)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Book: The Twelve Step Heresies... please comment (here or email)
Date: 24 Dec 92 06:50:50 GMT
Organization: Raytheon Equipment Division, Marlboro, MA

Hi... when I was on vacation in south western Florida recently, I saw a
book that I'd never seen before.  It was titled _The Twelve Step
Heresies_ (or some name extremely similar to that).  I didn't jot down
the author's name...  and I didn't do anything more than briefly glance
at it.  I did notice that it was about the 12-step groups like
Alcoholics Anonymous, Narcotics Anonymous, etc etc.  Frankly, the word
"heresies" is what intrigues me.  Has anyone read this book who'd care
to comment on its content?  I'd be very interested in finding out
whether it's worth my dollar and/or my precious time.

If you've read it, please give me some idea about its thesis.  I'd
appreciate that very much and thank you in advance.  Posting back to
the newsgroup in response is fine.  Or emailing me directly at
esther@demand.ed.ray.com would be fine, as well.

Thanks for your time and attention... I wish you all God's peace and
true happiness this holiday season and throughout 1993!

God bless and best regards from Esther Paris at Raytheon Equipment
Division in Marlborough, MA

ps, regarding the thread a few days back (I missed most of it) on "Does
God Intervene", I have learned in my life that God answers prayers in
one of three ways: NO, YES, NOT RIGHT NOW.  And, in my life I've also
learned that God never closes one door without opening another... but
sometimes waiting in the hallway really feels yicky. 
-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Esther Paris, Raytheon EDL, Marlborough, MA esther@demand.ed.ray.com
From: hedrick@cs.rutgers.edu
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: thought for the day (12-21)
Date: 22 Dec 92 08:14:04 GMT

Monday, December 21:

     .... Whoever believes in me believes not in me but in him who
sent me.  And whoever sees me sees him who sent me.  I have come as
light into the world, so that everyone who believes in me should
not remain in the darkness.  <John 12: 44-46>
From: athomson@otago.ac.nz (Alastair Thomson)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: 3-Self movement? (Re: On China's Christian population)
Date: 24 Dec 92 07:11:44 GMT
Organization: University of Otago, Dunedin, New Zealand

In article <Dec.20.17.15.07.1992.21995@farside.rutgers.edu>, Steve.Hayes@f22.n7101.z5.fidonet.org writes:
>  DH>>the 3-self movement:
>  DH>
>  DH>  Could someone who is in the know please explain what this 
>  DH>movement is
>  DH>about?
> 
> When the communist government took over in China in 1949 they expelled most of 
> the foreign missionaries, and among other things accused them of failing to 
> live up to their slogan of self-governing, self-supporting and 
> self-propagating churches. They regarded foreign missionaries as agents of 
> imperialism, and encouraged the churches to adopt the slogan. Thus the 
> "three-self patriotic movement" was started within the churches, but many 
> suspected it of simply being a pawn of the government, and that the 
> "three-self" slogan was adopted for political reasons rather than Christian 
> conviction. Forty years after the revolution it has not overcome that stigma.

As someone who has spent time in China, I would suggest that what you term
'stigma' is really more than that. One only has to look at the attitude of the
Chinese goverment to the house church movement to see their real attitude. This
is particularly true since the democracy uprising. Many house church leaders
have been imprisoned, many more forced even further underground. While the name
three-self has its basis in the 19th century missions societys, it has been
quite clearly used by the goverment as a means of controlling Christianity.

===============================================================================
                                    |
Alastair Thomson,                   | Phone +64-3-479-8347
University of Otago,                | Fax   +64-3-479-8529
Department of Computer Science,     | e-mail athomson@otago.ac.nz
P.O. Box 56                         |
Dunedin                             |
New Zealand                         |

===============================================================================
From: allenmk@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (The Not So Tall Adventurer)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Christmas on the 25th. Why?
Date: 25 Dec 92 09:20:19 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

jww@evolving.com (John W. Woolley) writes:

>Meanwhile, the Eastern Church had apparently begun celebrating the
>Nativity on January 6.  (Why?  I don't know.)  During the fourth
>century there was a lot of discussion of the point, and when the
>smoke cleared, both ends of the Church were celebrating Nativity on
>December 25 (the Western date, presumably encouraged by Saturnalia)

Actually, the Russian Orthodox church, at least, celebrates Christmas on
January 7.  I have this info from my R.O. friend in Belarus.  In fact, I'll get
to celebrate Christmas with her on that day, since I'll be in Belarus from
3 to 10 January!

Melinda Allen
-- 
Melinda K. Allen                  The LORD is close to the brokenhearted 
allenmk@ucsu.colorado.edu       and saves those who are crushed in spirit.   
allenmk@tramp.colorado.edu			               Psalm 34:18
From: phoenix@cwis.unomaha.edu (Shannon Chris Saltzman)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Is Christianity the only way?
Date: 22 Dec 92 08:32:00 GMT
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha


 I have this image of God on judgement day....
There is God with all his serenity and glory...
An Indian(who died in 1100 a.d.) approaches him,with fear and trembling.
Then our merciful father says,"Sorry sucker!!!ha ha ha!!!guess you really
bet on the wrong horse chief!! Too bad you never heard about me but hey,
thats life aint it??!!!!" ,and God pushes the reject button.
Now seriously,If God is that unfair,then I,with all my sanctification through
Christ will step off into the abyss with this unfortunate. 
I will never have to do that,Jesus is fair(not just because he decides what
is fair),and Jesus is above and beyond fair. I,who like all of you,would
nail Jesus to the cross myself(I did it with my sin). Yet Jesus took my
punishment,and gave me his reward.
This is not a lawyer,this is a lover. God must stick by his word,and if
he says"If you reject me,you will not be around me" he means it.
I believe as God has given me unlimited chances, unconditional love and
a The Kings righteousness, he will give the poor indian a chance at that same 
love. I believe if God can get even one person that loves him into heaven
he will go to any length to make sure it happens. He proved that at the cross.
May God bless all of you with his greatest gifts this Christmas and beyond:)

-- 
 MR Shannon Saltzman
 "Is doggie heaven kitty hell?" Stephanie phoenix(age 6)
 "How does teflon stick to a skillet when nothing sticks to teflon?"
 The words of Mike Warnke.
From: Richter@lrz.lrz-muenchen.dbp.de (Helmut Richter)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: God the Father
Date: 24 Dec 92 07:25:02 GMT
Reply-To: Richter@lrz.lrz-muenchen.dbp.de
Organization: Leibniz-Rechenzentrum, Muenchen (Germany)

hovingh@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (William Hovingh) writes:

>[snip]

>Now to my point:  In several books of the Hebrew Bible, the pronoun that refers
>to God is written with the consonants for "he", but has the vowel pointings for
>"she".  This means that either the Masoretes made a mistake (*extremely*
>unlikely!), or (as most scholars seem to think) the writers and transmitters of
>the text KNEW that it was absurd to assign a sex to God, and so reflected the
>ambiguity in the way they wrote the text.

>[snip]

I am aware that there are plenty of "he" (He-Waw-Alef) in the Bible that were
given the vowel pointings of "she" (i.e. a Chirek under the He) but I thought
this would apply only to humans of doubtless female gender. Could you please
give some references where this applies to God?

Regards,
Helmut
From: revc@garg.campbell.ca.us (Bob Van Cleef)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Non-procreative sex
Date: 4 Jan 93 02:39:11 GMT
Organization: The Land of Garg

Richard Chonak writes:
>The point is that the *two* aspects of marriage: 
>	-- expression/fulfillment of love
>	-- procreation of children
>must not be separated.  A sexual action performed when love is
>excluded is as wrong as a sexual action performed with the possible
>fertility excluded.

>What can couples do if for some serious reason they need to postpone
>having a child?

>They can take advantage of the naturally occurring infertility in the
>monthly cycle, learn how to identify the infertile time and avoid the
>fertile time.  Two good books are Nona Aguilar's "No Pill, No Risk
>Birth Control" and John Kippley's "The Art of Natural Family
>Planning".  NFP methods avoid conception without *suppressing*
>fertility, so no immoral action is involved.

Am I the only one who sees this as an example of "violating the spirit
of the law while fulfilling the letter?"

If it is immoral to have sexual activity "with the possibility of fertility
excluded," then it is immoral to have sexual activity on any day when you
know that the woman is not fertile. Under that rationale, natural family
planning methodes would be as immoral as using artificial methods.

Bob

-- 
revc@Garg.Campbell.CA.US (Bob Van Cleef)
The Land of Garg BBS -- +1 408 378-5108