HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Date:         Thu, 16 Apr 1992 09:03:23 EST
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         BGRISSOM%UKCC.UKY.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU
Subject:      Re: A quotation

On Tue, 14 Apr 1992 10:57:42 +0200 <torkel@SICS.SE> said:
>  Speaking of English...here is a quotation from a letter written by
>a father to his son, in 1437. A prize in the form of a postcard awaits
>the person who correctly identifies the father.
>
>
>    Think not that I haue any new or chang of aduertisments to send
>    you, but stil it is one that I wold: I haue nothing to crye and
>    cal apon you for but honestye, honestye. It may be diuersly
>    namid, but alway it tendith to one end. And as I wrate to you
>    last, I meane not that honestye that the comen sort callith an
>    honist man: Trust me that honist man is as comen a name as
>    the name of a good felow, that is to say, a dronkerd, a tauerne
>    hanter, a riotter, a gamer, a waster: so are among the comen
>    sort al men honist men that are not knowin for manifest naughtye
>    knaues. Seke not, I pray the, my son, that honesty which
>    aperith and is not in dead. Be wel assured it is no comen thing
>    nor no comen mans iugement to iuge wel of honestye, nor it is
>    no comen thing to come by: but so mitch it is the more
>    goodlye for that it is so rare and strang. Folow not therfor
>    the comen reputation of honestye: if you wil seme honist,
>    be honist, or else seame as you are.

   You can't win if you don't play, so I will guess that this is from
   one of the Paston letters.  And that would make it William (1378-1444).
   All I know about the Paston letters is what the Britannica says:
   one of the few records of family correspondence from 15th-century
   England to survive.

    Could I get a postcard just for being the first entrant?

    Brad Grissom
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Date:         Fri, 10 Apr 1992 22:19:53 -0500
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Nancy Harwood <harwood%TENET.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      sad thought
Comments: To: English Language Discussion Group <WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>
Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list WORDS-L <WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>

Each time I introduce a poetry unit in an English class, I begin by
spending one class period reading all kinds of poems...anything from
nursery rhymes to rock lyrics...just to make the point that not all poetry
is "boring" and that almost everyone can find some poetry he/she likes.
For years when I did this and read children's poems (A.A. Milne,
Eugene Field, nursery rhymes, etc.), there would be widespread response...
"I remember that...my Mom used to read it to me"..."Oh, yeah, that was
my favorite"..."Oh, I always loved that."  This year, however, not one
student in my freshman English class recognized *anything*...and no one
could remember being read to at all.  Admittedly, as one for whom reading
is as necessary as oxygen, I may be overreacting...but it makes me sad
that none of these children had anyone who read to them when they were
small.  I *know* modern students are exposed to far more information than
we were as children, but I can't help thinking that they've missed a
great deal...they've not discovered the joy of reading.  One of the
greatest gifts my parents gave me was a love of reading...I wish I could
give it to these children, but I'm afraid it's a little late.

Does anyone else agree, or am I indeed overreacting?
ndh
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Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 11:11:00 CDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         "815 Stephen H. Karlson 753-6980"
 <TA0SHK1%NIU.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Fitting in

Adam asks why all the college kids have first names beginning with
"A."

Maybe we get all the A students on Words-L

Herr Doktor Karlson (not Professor yet by the German scheme)
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Date:         Fri, 10 Apr 1992 13:43:00 EDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         "Aaron Dickey, The Happy Spore"
 <AXD7104%NYUACF.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject: Re: words-l history

>I've got to keep a close eye on what these hooligan users say about me
>don't I?

>--fwp, sys.nazi to the list goddess

Ah, twist that screw, Frank.  You're lucky my link died right after I
sent that reply a few nights ago. :-)

--Aaron

"No, never CONVICTED, no...."
:)
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Date:         Mon, 13 Apr 1992 20:50:07 -0500
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Nancy Harwood <harwood%TENET.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: the free press
Comments: To: English Language Discussion Group <WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>
Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list WORDS-L <WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>

On Mon, 13 Apr 1992, QXN148@uriacc.bitnet wrote:

> >
> >I cannot imagine why anyone would want to be
> >president badly enough to subject themselves and their families to the
> >media spotlight.
>
> This reminds me of the Clarence Thomas situation.  He himself said that he
> would not wish what he had gone through on anybody but that he was not going
 to
> give up because he had gone through too much to quit at that point. I guess he
> wanted the job and the prestige of the job so much that he was willing to give
> up some of his personal integrity (which I believe  he had given up long
 before
> his nomination to the Supreme Court).

I guess it's all a matter of tradeoffs...what you're willing to give up
to get what you want.  I sometimes wonder, after these people go through
all this to attain power, whether it brings them the satisfaction they
expected.
ndh
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Date:         Sat, 11 Apr 1992 09:42:00 EDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         "Aaron Dickey, The Happy Spore"
 <AXD7104%ACFCLUSTER.NYU.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: sad thought
Comments: To: WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu

In RE Natalie's generalization:

I think in smaller towns, Natalie may be right about public schools
being better than smaller ones.  Where I grew up (in West By-God
Virginia) there are three public high schools and one private Catholic
school.  The vast majority of the private school kids were sent there
by their parents because they had "behavioral problems" (in other words,
they didn't obey their parents 100% of the time) or because of drug use.
The parents assumed that the nuns would whip them into shape with lots
of ruler slaps on the wrists.  Of course, what it meant in the end was
that the private school had a much higher ratio of drug and alcohol use
and insubordination.  I seriously doubt that I would have gotten a better
education in that private school that I got in the public schools, which
is a scary thought.

--Aaron
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Date:         Fri, 10 Apr 1992 16:01:43 EDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         QXN148%URIACC.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU
Subject:      Re: Ashe and AIDS

>Posted on 10 Apr 1992 at 15:42:31 by Uriacc Mailer (002033)
>
>Re: Ashe and AIDS
>
>Date:         Fri, 10 Apr 1992 15:22:10 EDT
>Reply-To:     English Language Discussion Group <WORDS-L@UGA.BITNET>
>From:         leah <LEAH@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>
>
>Anne- why is it news? And what makes it anybody's business? I am not flaming;
>I really would like to know what distinguishes it from gossip. Ashe's death
>would be sad news, but why is his illness any news at all?
              ^^^^
 Leah,
      Why wouldn't his death be considered sad gossip if his contraction of the
disease or revelation in this case is, gossip?
I'm not flaming either.
Lisa A.
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Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1992 19:16:22 CDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         "Natalie Maynor" <maynor%RA.MSSTATE.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: CALLING ALL STUDENTS OF RUSSIAN
Comments: To: WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu

> chance to use it.  I never used it outside the classroom, and as a
> consequence I remember very little.  Of course, same with Latin, but
> the Latin helps you with English.

Exactly how does Latin help you with English?
   --Natalie (maynor@ra.msstate.edu)
     aka Devil's Advocate
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Date:         Tue, 14 Apr 1992 20:14:24 -0500
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Nancy Harwood <harwood%TENET.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: flipping channels
Comments: To: English Language Discussion Group <WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>
Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list WORDS-L <WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>

>  Moral of the story:  avoid remote controls if there's a channel-flipper in
> your family.
>    --Natalie (maynor@ra.msstate.edu)

Yes...a wise precaution.  However, it's not always easy to tell
beforehand that your nearest and dearest are going to turn into
*channel-flippers*...and then it's too late (maybe I could hide the
batteries.)
ndh
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Date:         Tue, 14 Apr 1992 10:36:01 EST
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Evelyn Duncan <R3EJD%AKRONVM.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Fast-paced movies

Tushar's suggestion of a movie made by combining snippets of TV shows
reminds me of a PBS program called _The Cinematic Eye_.  One week, it
covered Eisenstein's _Potemkin_, and showed a "czarist" version made
by reediting a copy of the film.  It was one of the funniest movies I've
seen as well as an excellent example of how an editor can change the
whole meaning of a movie.

Evelyn
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Date:         Tue, 14 Apr 1992 14:13:53 CDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         "Natalie Maynor" <maynor%RA.MSSTATE.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: ODDS 'N' ENDS

> I see two possible 'wrongs' here:
>
> (a) It is wrong for a culture to change so that its linguistic needs
>     are met by a system of grunts.
>
> (b) It is wrong for a language to evolve into a system of grunts if
>     that meets the needs of the culture using it.
>
> I don't think Natalie is offering an opinion on (a) and is contending
> that (b) is false regardless of the veracity of (a).

What is it about the name Frank that leads to good sense??  (This could
get pretty Whorfian, couldn't it?  Does being named Frank cause one to
be intelligent?)  Anyway, both Franks have just interpreted correctly
what I have been trying to get across.  I just remembered something --
Back in the early days of the list I could always count on Frank Anshen
to come through also.  I wish he hadn't left us.  Anyway, both of the
current Franks are correct in their comments about what I was saying.
So was Judith, but then Mama Primate is always right about everything.
   --Natalie (maynor@ra.msstate.edu)
From: TONY%VM1.MCGILL.CA@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU (Tony Harminc)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Subject: Re: Understatement of the Year
Date: 12 Apr 92 16:51:07 GMT
Article-I.D.: UGA.WORDS-L%92041212583948
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
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X-Delivery-Notice:  SMTP MAIL FROM does not correspond to sender.
              10 Apr 1992 19:10:01 EST from
              <LL23%NEMOMUS.BITNET@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

>> Interesting - I thought it was dictatorships and other totalitarian
>> countries that restricted their citizens' right to travel...
>>
>> Tony H.
>
>I don't know about your passport, but mine has a list of countries in
>fine print in which my passport is not valid.
>
>Karen

My Canadian passport does have fine print saying "This passport is valid for
all countries unless otherwise endorsed".  (And it isn't.)

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that "everyone has the right
to leave any country (including his own)...".  For a signatory country to
restrict which countries its citizens can leave to go *to* would seem to make
a mockery of this.  I can't imagine that a prohibition on visiting another
country would pass the courts in this country, though I don't think it's
come up.  Surely someone must have challenged it in the US by now ?

Tony H.
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Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 15:51:43 EDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Frank <ST403231%BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: CALLING ALL STUDENTS OF RUSSIAN
Comments: To: words-l@uga.cc.uga.edu

>From:         "Natalie Maynor" <maynor@RA.MSSTATE.EDU>
>
>> I think part of the advantage of Latin (with regard to grammar improvement fo
>                                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>That, of course, is a social judgment.  The concept of "grammar improvement"
>makes no sense linguistically.
>
>>come from a home where good English was spoken, you just DON'T learn the
>                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Another social judgment, not a linguistic judgment.
>
>>grammar rules... you learn early on that you can get by with what sounds right
>
>That's what constitutes the rules of grammar.  If it sounds right to the
>native speaker, it *IS* "right."  It's the rule.  The rules of grammar are
>acquired without conscious effort by children at a very young age --
>before starting to school.
>   --Natalie (maynor@ra.msstate.edu)
I was patiently waiting for Natalie to let loose her descriptivst cannon-
balls.  Yes, of course you are right.  The distinction is social.  BUT is
it not true that different levels of language are requried for different
situations?  (One linguist whom I read long ago and whose name I have for-
gotten called them "levels of responsibility.")  The English of the shopping
mall cannot be the English of the (for lack of a better example) doctoral
dissertation, which cannot be the English of the legal code, which cannot
be the English of treatises on economics.  Idiolects vary so widely that
for the sake of mutual understanding (which, we hope, is the goal of lan-
guage in the first place) some standard or normalization has to be main-
tained so that speakers will have something to measure themselves and each
other against.  My guess is that you would agree, but that you are ob-
jecting to (somewhat arbitrarily) calling one standard "good" or "correct"
English and another "bad" or "incorrect."  I can live with the descriptivist
approach to language.  Often it provides the only way to explain phenomena
that occur in language.  But that doesn't mean that standardization or
normalization is bad.

And what happens when native speakers disagree?  I can think of an example
that I had to deal with recently.  I had friends, singers, like myself,
who were repeatedly using "sung" as the preterit of "sing."  It drove me
crazy.  To my ear it was every bit as ill-formed as if they were saying
"he am" or "I is" or "we eaten."  Yet all of us are native speakers of
English.  "We sung" sounds fine to them, and awful to me.  How do we re-
solve that in the context of the descriptivist theory that the native
speaker is always (subject to some, marginal, qualifications) right?

Frank
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Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 00:15:00 EST
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         STU DENENBERG <DENENBSA%SNYPLAVA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Bomber Crews and PhDssdnd

>
>>>Okay, Stu, *what does it mean*?
>>>
>>>(I feel like a major sucker here....)
>>>
>>>Dr. Steve
>>
>>
>>I can't say.
>>
>>        Stu
>
>  I was just asking to be nice, Dr. Stu.
>
>Dr. Steve

I couldn't say because it was an In-Joke.
But now it won't be because I will explain it.
I have a friend (yes, it's true) that when he knows something and also
knows that he's not allowed to share it (like he's been sworn to secrecy)
and then he's asked about it, merely replies "I can't say". Nice huh?

Finally, as you were so nice, the answer is taht i am temporaririly stuck
with some horrible communication softwareand it's impossible to go back and
correct any typing errors and "PhDssnd" was just that.

Sorry the answer was not more exciting.

        DrD
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Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 09:12:44 EST
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         GUBERT%UKCC.UKY.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU
Subject:      Re: flaming fye
              6 Apr 1992 08:56:22 -0400 from <droby@NOVA.TCS.TUFTS.EDU>

You guys must be trying really hard to get gleaned.  How much of this
is real and how much fiction?
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Date:         Thu, 16 Apr 1992 12:57:52 CDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Tushar Samant <tushar%ZAPHOD.UCHICAGO.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      So, Fred ?

Fred, I have read all your postings with great interest, and after
an incisive analysis (it was hard to peel off the layers of
sparkling wit and mordant humour) I have finally understood your
point. And I agree with it !

Yes, linguistics IS an ideology, despite the smokescreen of words
like "scientific" and "objective". So is all sociology. all psycho-
logy and all behaviourial science. The theory of evolution is an
ideology, the periodic table is an ideology, all organic chemistry
is ideology.

Everything is an ideology. The universities which support academic
berks are an ideolgy. The internet is an ideology. The underlying
telecommunications engineering is an ideology, for actually not
only all electronics but all quantum mechanics is an ideology. All
cosmology is an ideology. None of physics is a fact of the universe.
They are theories, which are an expression  of the underlying power
structure. Newton was a totalitarian, Gauss was male-oriented,
Archimedes was a lickspittle lackey, and not to put too fine a point
on it, Euclid was a fascist.

However, I have a question, which I would like answered, and - here
is where I crave your undivided attention - the question is : So ?

tushar
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Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 10:36:42 EDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Bill Merrill <ST401601%BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: CALLING ALL STUDENTS OF RUSSIAN
Comments: To: words-l@uga.cc.uga.edu

Aimee asks:
>Are there any people on this list that is studying Russian,
>has studied Russian, or is a Russian prof?  I am taking
I confess to having taken 3 semesters. (kak pozebaiete, Frank :-))
Russian is an inflected
language, which means it has endings, like Latin; the alphabet is
based on Greek, so you probably know half the letters already;
Russian literature is among the world's greatest. Some people
say that all languages are equally difficult to learn, and that
is likely true if you are starting from zero. My first foreign
language was Latin, and that made Spanish and French seem like
child's play. It was an advantage in Russian because I already
knew what an accusative was, for example. But there were not
as many cognates, and 5 hours a week of classes plus language
lab was a real grind. I eventually became an English major.
Good luck and da sbidanya. Bill
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Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 18:37:00 EDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Captain CAAAAAAVEMAN!!!!! <ARHODES%DREW.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Jones

In article <tfilt198167@drew.edu>, The Ronin <WHITERJ@MSCD.BITNET> writes:
> Sayeth        Nancy Harwood <harwood@TENET.EDU>
>
>> it...I just thought my Welsh was showing.
>
>      Wait a minute, it still may be.  I am Scottish, Irish, and Welsh.
> Quick, what are the heredities of the rest of the BWP's.  Is BWP'ing
> an 'ethnic' thing?
>
> The Ronin
>
        Let's, English, but from the early 1600s, and a touch of Scot from
my great-grandmother.  Disgustingly non-ethnic.

                          |_
                          Oo\ Alex, VC
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Date:         Wed, 15 Apr 1992 08:25:34 CDT
 <WORDS-L%UGA.bitnet@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
From:         Tushar Samant <tushar%ZAPHOD.UCHICAGO.EDU@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      "nothing wrong"

Natalie's position seems to be the following:

1 She is making no statement about "cultural change", but only
  about "language change", (which results from "culture change").

2 There is nothing wrong about language so changing if it has
  changed to meet the needs of people. Here "nothing wrong" is
  meant in a "practical sense".

3 This statement belongs to (socio)linguistics.



I have finally come to the conclusion that (2) doesn't mean anything
at all, except for saying that "practical" in this context means what
it means in other contexts. So the statement definitely has nothing to
do with linguistics, but belongs to a dictionary. Hence, statement (3)
is false.


So it's only statement (1) which we must consider. I find it difficult
to see what a phrase like "change in language following from change in
culture" actually means. Natalie said somewhere that (approx) "You can
say that language is part of culture. That's not the point here, though."
But that's exactly the point. How is "culture influencing language" to
be interpreted if they are inextricably linked ?

On a different tack, as Bayla said, "parallels between sociology and
linguistics are impressive". Well, it's true. Statements of this kind
about language must then, mutatis mutandis, apply to culture too.

Finally, Torkel's question about mathematics or literature is NOT so
absurd or irrelevant. As I said, of the phenomena of language changing
into grunts and literature abolished, neither is causally the first. They
are correlated and that's all one can say about it.



Now statement (2) means nothing at all anyway, but it is still relevant
to ask whether "cultural relativism" and its counterpart in linguistics
belong to philosophy or the subjects themselves. My opinion is that they
are philosophical assumptions made before the science itself is practised.
(Analogous in a way to axioms made before you start on mathematics.) They
establish a view, and the subject starts from that vantage point.

So the debate is only about whether these assumptions "belong" to the
subject. Although we can define the subject to include them, it does sound
strange to call them "sociological truths". Hence I side with Torkel.



I also want to point out a feature of this whole thread which struck me,
and that is: repeated *explication* of (2). That was totally irrelevant.
I daresay that Torkel knows what (2) means, and that it implies that "a
system of grunts which is useful is useful". What he wants is not a
repetition of that, but why it follows from linguistics.

The other irrelevant features: (1) The question of whether we can prevent
language from degenerating, and the answer that we cannot; (2) The question
of whether people can control their own evolution (which is almost the
same).  Torkel was never interested in these things.



tushar