From: ladislas@sobeco.com (Ladislas A.)
Subject: Re: Magick Theory
Organization: Sobeco Ernst & Young
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 08:10:48 GMT

In <72813@cup.portal.com> Tagi@cup.portal.com (Thyagi Morgoth NagaSiva) writes:

>93!01.03 e.v.

>I wrote:

>My REAL challenge here, however is regarding your use of the word 'Will'
>and how the mage 'decides' to follow it.  Who chooses this 'Will'?
>Does the mage REALLY have a choice to follow the Will when it is so
>painful and unsatisfying NOT to do so?  Aren't the 'laws of nature'
>(so called) really a system of requirement with perilous penalties
>for those who attempt to oppose them?  Aren't we trapped like rats
>in cages, straining desperately to save our faces by 'choosing' to
>act according to this Will which punishes us for attempting not to
>do so?

>(evil grin)


>Ladislas replied:

>Let me answer your challenge with a few questions:  have you ever asked
>yourself why you're alive, why you were born?  Wouldn't you say that you 
>were born because you Willed it or do you think you had no choice in the
>matter?  Do you always keep away from that which you know might harm you?


>Response:

>I have asked myself these questions, yes.

>I don't think that there IS an absolute answer there.  Having searched
>valiantly for this 'I', it continually appears as a convention of social
>communications, rather than anything substantial.  Then again, there does
>seem to be SOMETHING here, making these characters appear upon this
>screen.

>I don't believe in 'free will', by the way.  I have been taught that
>there are things which 'harm' this body.  Often when these actions are
>taken there comes with it an intense pain.  Having learned quite quickly
>that pain is something best avoided, it has only been recently that I've
>discovered value in withstanding pain in the pursuit of discipline.
>Beyond this there is little value to be found in it, though it may
>well be a gradually more recurrent phenomenon in my lifetime, and I do
>feel like it is less traumatic each time I encounter it directly.

I have also asked myself these questions.  I haven't found my answers yet.
I don't believe in 'free will' either.  At least not in that sense.  I do
believe that we choose to make mistakes that can be painful.  But then
again, are they really 'mistakes' or is it the 'I' that is trying to teach
a lesson?

From the explanations I got here as to what the Will is, it appears as a goal
that one sets for him/herself.  One can choose his/her purpose in life at a
certain age, but according to certain thought schools (mostly orientals),
the purpose is decided before birth.
The Will, as I understand it, is that 'purpose in life'.

>So no, I don't keep away from all pain, but what does this have to do
>with 'Will', choice and a feeling of 'motivation'?

It is not what is painful, but what is harmful that you keep away from.
You say you accept to withstand pain in the pursuit of discipline.  If
you didn't want to withstand pain, you could choose to remain an undisciplined
person (since I don't know what kind of discipline you are talking about, I
leave it at that).  Martial arts require discipline that an ordinary nine-to-
fiver doesn't want to work at, beyond simple exercise.

What I mean when I say that a mage 'decides' to follow her/his Will, is that
s/he disciplines her/himself in body and mind in order to best achieve
her/his purpose.  Instead of sitting around and having a good time, s/he
readies her/himself physically and mentally to work on her/his purpose.  The
mage 'decides' in that s/he searches for that purpose in her/himself, and
having found something, s/he works hard to find out if it is the real thing.
If it is the real thing, s/he endeavors to accomplish it.

Do you believe in Destiny?  As in "whatever you do, you can't escape your
Destiny".  If Destiny is and we have no choice but to accept it, then where
can we find motivation?  If one is destined to remain a pauper, why should
s/he strive for more?

I don't believe in inescapable destiny.  I think it's something in between
Destiny and Choice.  Will is this 'in between'.  It's one's choice, the plan
of one's life.  One can scrap the plan if s/he wants, but conflicting with
his/her Will has drawbacks and if s/he listens to his/her inner-self,
s/he'll know that s/he doesn't want that conflict.

How does this relate to magick, then?  Well, wanting something is good, but
deciding that that something is *the* goal to achieve is better.  Little do
I know of magick, but I can't imagine a mage making preparations for a
ceremony while being undecided as to the results s/he wants.

>Thyagi

Ladislas.