From: gertler@cyclone.sbi.com (Don Gertler)
Subject: Re: Conversion Question
Originator: scj@israel.nysernet.org
Reply-To: <gertler@cyclone.sbi.com (Don Gertler)>
Organization: Nysernet
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 01:42:49 GMT

ask@cbnews.cb.att.com (Arthur S. Kamlet) writes:
> <gertler@cyclone.sbi.com (Don Gertler)> writes:
> >faigin@aero.org (Daniel P. Faigin) writes:

> >It is far easier and more objective to define membership in this way.
> >Once someone is defined as a Jew, that person is then encouraged to
> >observe the law.  If we are to be precisely defined by our beliefs,
>                                                             ^^^^^^^
> >or even by our practice, I suspect that at most one person could
> >ever be defined as a Jew.
> >
> >> Could there be different procedures for
> >> becoming one who believe in the religion, as opposed to a member of the
> >> nation?
> >
> >Yes.  A good example is Christianity, which generally defines its
> >adherents by their belief, unlike Judaism.  I have a problem with
>                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> Well, actually I agree with the statement that Jews are defined by
> what they do and not what their beliefs are.
> 
> But then I read all these articles saying conservative converts are
> not kosher because they and their rabbis don't hold certain beliefs.

While it does not define the Jew, belief may be required of a Jew.
Now let's examine conversion, admitting a non-Jew into the Jewish nation.
As with any naturalization procedure, we are generally more stringent
than we are with the native.  Attributes that may be accepted (though
perhaps not encouraged or even desired) in natives may render one
unqualified for naturalization.  A native-born U.S. citizen, for
instance, will not even lose his/her citizenship for attempting to
overthrow the U.S. government!  Would we readily accept such a person,
however, as a foreign citizen applying for naturalization?  There are
far less objectionable vices that may render a foreigner un-naturalizable.

In Judaism, a Jew may or may not believe in G-d and the Torah.  That
person is still just as much a Jew as Rebbe Ploni Almoni Shlita.  On
the other hand, professing atheism and rejecting the Torah *may*
[hypothetical alert!!!] legitimately render a Gentile, who has every
right to such a belief, unacceptable for entrance into the Jewish
people.  Once a convert, however, that person -- now a Jew -- remains
a Jew, even if he/she loses the belief.  A convert is no less a Jew
than a native Jew.  But the person may not become a Jew in the first
place without the belief.

Now, assuming this is a legitimate [Oops!  I used the "L" word]
approach, while understandably not to your liking, can we at least
require the same belief of the person responsible for supervising
and educating the convert?  Try to ignore the OCR labels.  As I
stated, O may have difficulty with *itself* on this issue.  But
is this inherently evil?  Again, we're not requiring it of every
Jew just to be called a Jew, merely of the prospective convert
into our people, as well as the person guiding the new Jew-to-be.

> Lots of words right here stated: since conservative rabbis and
> converts do not believe the entire written and oral Torah were
> written by G-d, then the conversions are not valid.

Well, perhaps lots of word right here stated that, but if they did,
then they were your words, not mine.  I have said nothing of C, per
se.  If the shoe fits, wear it.  But, as I said, it probably fits
many Os as well.

> Of course,
> I believe if one holds certain beliefs, one's actions in particular
> situations would differ from those who do hold those beliefs.

While I suspect you have a mere typo in the above, you're point even
as stated is quite accurate, and well taken.

> But
> the criticism here wasn't about actions;  it was about beliefs!

I criticized no beliefs.  Did you?

> So I read with agreement the statement that beliefs do not define
> Judaism, yet know that beliefs will once again be thrown down as
> a gauntlet when conversion discussion arise.

Two completely different discussions.

-Don Gertler