HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 16:17:02 EST
From:         macphil <IQTI400@INDYCMS.IUPUI.EDU>
Subject:      Re: who(M) do you trust
Comments: To: Forum for the Discussion of Politics <POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu>

On Fri, 4 Sep 1992 14:51:00 CDT fred said:
>At least Bill Clinton will admit that he avoided vietnam, and if evidence
>surfaces that he had help, he will admit to that as well. There is some

He will admit it when confronted /c unimpeachable evidence.  Until the
correct question is phrased properly and he stands to lose the election
from it, he will admit to nothing and will not fall on his sword.  Look
@ how much admitting he's done so far:  none.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The lesser of two evils is still evil." - Winston Churchill

MacPhil / iqti400@indycms.bitnet / iqti400@indycms.iupui.edu
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Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1992 12:05:40 -0500
From:         Jason Briggs Cormier <CORJB@RHODES.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Alleged Overpoulation (was Re: let's rephrase the question)

>Jason:
>>Having read many posts at once(over 400) I am now going to
>>respond to a few.
>>
>>On this issue of overpopulation:
>>
>>We are still overpopulating even though we have the
>>physical/geographic space.  We are using up more resources
>                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>than are being replinished.  If this isn't overpopulation,
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>I don't know what is.
>>
>>j.b.
>
>Duh, isn't this overconsumption ?

If we had fewer people, we'd have fewer people overconsuming.

I am one of those people who like wide, open spaces(I think
it has to do with growing up in the rural South).  It makes
me think of Asimov's planet called Solaria, where they kept
the population at 1,200 for an entire planet.  I find the
idea a little provacative.

j.b.
>D.
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Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 23:55:28 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: read my lips: I have family values

toddddd (and Kerry--what the heck, everybody):

Teacher input is a nice idea, but part of the problem is that the
majority of a teacher's efforts these days is wrapped up in paperwork.
Teacher's *don't* have autonomy in the classroom because the
administrators and the teachers' unions keep telling them how to
teach, regardless of what works.

Teachers who go beyond the call of duty and spend extra time with
students, *teaching* them should be rewarded and appreciated.  Right
now, they are just given more administrative and committee work, which
reduces the amount of time they can actually spend *teaching.*

--Missy P 2 B
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 20:54:00 EDT
From:         CMORRISO@SNYESCVA.BITNET
Subject:      RE: peter schledorn, where are you?????

I was just going to ask Jimbo where the love of my life was, and what do
you know?  I guess none of us will ever get real jobs.  I got a message
from Val today, too, so I guess everything is just about back to normal.

Chris Morrison
CMorriso@snyescva.bitnet
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Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 20:00:00 EDT
From:         GRACZ1@ITHACA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: It's always the money

>G. Racz:
>
>No, only those who can afford *expensive* art deserve *expensive*
>art.

  1)  I belive we set the cost of government funded art at around
         0.064 cents/person. (I may be missing a decimal point)

  2)  If you  are prepared to call every museum, gallery, theater,
           orchestra, opera company, and community arts school
           in your community expensive, then I pity you.

>--Missy P 2 B

>PS:  People "deserve" art?  Is this another one of those "rights?"

           They deserve art more than they deserve the stealth bomber.

G. Racz
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Wed, 9 Sep 1992 18:34:00 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: It's always the money

Uh, Chris:

I seriously doubt that "the only one you don't have" is the Jewish one.
There are over 200 Bible translations.  The Koran and the Jehovah's
Witness versions are not Bibles.  (The JW is called the New World
Translation.)  When we speak of the Bible as authoritative and inerrant,
we are speaking of the original autographs, of which there are multiple
copies, which were recopied *perfectly*) if *one* error was found when
the scribes were doing so, the entire copy was destroyed.  The
accuracy of the autographs is confirmed by the number of copies, by the
Septuagint, and by the Dead Sea Scrolls.  And, there are more than 5000
copies in ancient Greek of all or portions of the New Testament.  Although
there are some minor differences in those manuscripts, none deal with
doctrinal issues.

Whatever the legitimate Bible used, there is no disagreement on the
basic tenets--the 10 commandments, the greatest commandment, and
the sermon on the mount--that form the foundation of Judeo-Christian
morality.

Ask George Washington what Robert and I mean by morality.  He knew.

--Missy P 2 B
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Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 16:53:00 EDT
From:         DFIELD1@ITHACA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: The War Between the Jasons

Hi, I just returned to the list after being gone all summer, but it seems
like we're debating the same topics.

Just a reminder that while we're discussing homosexuality this discussion
isn't supposed to focus on morality.

If anyone is interesting in discussing the moral aspects of homosexuality,
feel free to email me or read the following books:

        The Church And The Homosexual
        Now That You Know: A Guide for Parents of Gays and Lesbians

I would LOVE to discuss how I am such an amoral person because God gave
me the wonderful gift and ability to love other men.

Derrick
DFIELD@ITHACA
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 11:51:00 EDT
From:         Travis Kidd <TKIDD@CLEMSON.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: The War Between the Jasons

On Tue, 8 Sep 1992 10:12:27 EDT Jamie <PL436000@BROWNVM.BITNET> said:
>
> To refuse to do so is discriminatory, and violates equal protection.
>
> Jamie

Jamie, do separate-sex bathrooms in public buildings violate equal
protection???
I don't think that the 14th Amendment or any other Amendment ever
was meant to preclude the state from keeping a moral society.  To
most Americans (don't let the pink triangle fool you), homosexuality
is grossly immoral--you can hear it from Jerry Falwell, or you can
read it on the bathroom wall.
The 14th as well as the ninth gives you the right to ADVOCATE legal
homosexuality, but not to practice it.

Also, the Bill of Rights is not totally limited to the federal
government.  If you notice, only the First and Tenth Amendments mention
Congress.  The others are in the passive voice, applying to both levels
of government.

I am wondering as to the legitimacy of the Civil War Amendments them-
selves.  How can a military-imposed government take the place of an
elected legislature?  Could people representing the Southern states
have sued to regain their seats in Congress??  Because if not, then
the 13th thru 15th Amendments are invalid.  And if so, why didn't they?

I believe, but barely, that the C.W. Amendments are legit, but I would
like further information.

-Travis
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
From: holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Subject: Re:      Re: pot and the kettle
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 00:33:05 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalno.fnal.gov
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <POLITICS%92090215084614@OHSTVMA.IRCC.OHIO-STATE.EDU>,         
SPRG0002@TULSAJC.BITNET writes:
>  I will *perhaps* submit to one further qualifier for #6.  The target I have 
>  in mind for those under #6, are those that are defensive of their wrongful
>  activity.  They may be openly militant in their rejection of the notion that
>  they are doing something wrong or simply be unwilling to admit that their
>  conduct is unacceptable.

Then you disqualify yourself from adopting, as bigotry is wrong and
unacceptable.

-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
                                     | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
From: andy@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU (Andy Freeman)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Subject: Re: RE:Re:Bosnia Conflict
Date: 11 Sep 92 15:44:43 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Department,  Stanford University.
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>My sister is married to a Gurkha officer (erm, it's only the men that
>are Nepalese). Apparently towards the end of the Falklands War the
>plan was to send the Gurkhas into Port Stanley to flush out the
>remaining Argentinians. When the ceasefire was signed shortly before
>they were to go in, it is alleged that many of the men wept from
>disappointment. The Nepalese men are, in many ways, the ultimate
>mercenaries, often with proud family traditions of service to the
>British Army.

A friend of mine claims that there was an incident in WWII where only
a few Ghurkas, out of a large group, volunteered for a mission.  This
was very odd, as said group had a history of unanimously volunteering
for just about anything, and it was obvious that they didn't feel good
about their reluctance.
The mission description included the phrase "jump out of a plane".

The problem was solved and they all volunteered after someone got the
obvious answer to "will we be given parachutes?".  Supposedly all of
the Ghurkas assumed that they wouldn't, and were embarrassed that most
didn't volunteer anyway.

Supposedly the Soviets did try a few "no parachute" mass jumps in WWII
and the survival rate isn't horrible if the ground is appropriate and
proper technique is used.  (The Soviets did it into snow.)

-andy
--
UUCP:    {arpa gateways, sun, decwrl, uunet, rutgers}!cs.stanford.edu!andy
ARPA:    andy@cs.stanford.edu
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Mon, 7 Sep 1992 18:46:22 EDT
From:         Jamie <PL436000@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Little answer

>From:         ZIMMERJ@WABASH.BITNET

>Of course its okay.  Employers can hire or fire for whatever reasons they
>please, given the terms of the initial contract.

No, they can't. The Civil Rights Act of 1965 prevents employers
from hiring or firing on certain bases. Racial prejudice, for
example.

Jason may be confusing what he thinks people OUGHT to be allowed to
do with what the law actually allows them to do.

Jamie
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Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 09:50:00 EST
From:         ZIMMERJ@WABASH.BITNET
Subject:      Re: where carolyn left off

Hi Missy.

>I think this has gone about far enough.  (And, I confess, I have participated
>as avidly as anyone.  Mea culpa.)  However, I think we are again straying
>into "pure theology" postings, which, as I have been told, and as I
>have tried to remember, belong elsewhere.

True.  This issue has boiled down to one side saying "homosexuality is wrong
because the Bible says so" and another saying "Biblical appeals are not a
legitimate basis for moral reasoning."  Regardless of what side you fall on,
there's really nothing you can do to overcome either of these arguments without
getting into pure theology/philosophy (I must admit that by talking philosophy,
I'm making forays into unknown territory).

If one side grants that homosexuality is immoral, there is still *some* room
for debate, but not much.  If the other side grants that the Bible is no
substitue for reason, room for debate also disappears.  And if neither side
gives, we have no common ground and get stuck arguing with no chance of
convincing anybody on "the other side."

It looks like we're all going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

>--Missy P 2 B

Jason
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Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 23:20:24 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: It's always the money
              10 Sep 1992 19:05:01 GMT from <holzman@FNALNO.FNAL.GOV>

How about if each taxpayer got to *keep* that 1/4 of a cent (and a lot
more besides) and buy and sell whatever art, architecture, literature,
drama, and entertainment he or she prefers?

--Missy P 2 B
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Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1992 15:05:39 -0500
From:         Jason Briggs Cormier <CORJB@RHODES.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Is homosexuality immoral?

Travis:

>If you don't like the moral rules of
>the society that you live in, move somewhere else.

If this is your belief, then why haven't you left?

j.b.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Sun, 13 Sep 1992 23:02:48 EDT
From:         K=A*T <MEC038@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject:      Re: 5% pay cut
              13 Sep 1992 16:01:06 EDT from <MEC038@UKCC.UKY.EDU>

From:         K=A*T <MEC038@UKCC.UKY.EDU>

> Now, maybe it is me but if I was a federal employee, I would
> have preferred a 10% (if that is how much it is) tax
> increase by Clinton, than a 5% salary cut by Bush?

> Am I missing something here or do you guys agree with my
> math?

Well, I don't agree with that math.  Oops, that was my own
post. :-)

What I should have said is that if I was a federal employee
making above $75K and below $200K (I think that includes all
those who earn more than $75K), I would have preferred Clinton's
plan over Bush's.

--KAT
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Date:         Wed, 9 Sep 1992 23:06:00 EST
From:         Tyrone Slothrop <199561011@VUVAXCOM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Bad v. Harmful

missy:

lying makes of one a liar.  however, there are situations where it
becomes harmful, either to oneself or to another, to tell the truth.
in these situations, telling the truth is worse than lying, because
when you lie, the only one you harm is yourself (by making yourself
a liar), but when you tell the truth, you harm another.

me, i'm willing to sacrifice to help someone else.  is that
bad?

brni
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
From: jwales@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (jimmy donal wales)
Subject: Re: Is homosexuality immoral?
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 16:42:40 GMT

Hi, I just want to clarify something I wrote which may have been
somewhat less than clear.

Jason Briggs Cormier <CORJB@RHODES.BITNET> writes:
>>Second, I think
>>that many homosexuals (though not necessarily ALL) have psychological
>>problems which are only made worse by their lifestyle.
>
>On this concept, I think that this has nothing to do with a person's
>morality.  I have had psychological problems that were in no way
>related to my sexuality--do they make me immoral?

No, of course not, and I didn't intend to give that impression.  I
should have written more clearly.  My point was that to whatever
extent you have psychological problems that you can actually do something
about, it is moral for you to do something about them.

Of course, some people have psychological problems which are so
deeply ingrained that they don't even REALIZE the problem and don't
even KNOW to try to do something about it.  Obviously, a person in
such a condition can hardly be faulted for failing to seek help.

--Jimbo



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Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1992 01:28:00 EDT
From:         CMORRISO@SNYESCVA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: KAT is bad if and only if Jimbo is harmful

S P L A S S S H !

Chris Morrison
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Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1992 14:47:47 EST
From:         macphil <IQTI400@INDYCMS.IUPUI.EDU>
Subject:      Re: what to do in a world that trivializes intelligence
Comments: To: Forum for the Discussion of Politics <POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu>

On Mon, 14 Sep 1992 15:26:40 EDT Janet Perry said:

>In my opinion, giving vouchers to families who choose to send their children
>to private schools will further dichotomize our society, giving more to
>those who already have a lot and diminishing the prospects for those who
>can't afford private schools for their children to become productive citizens.


But going back to my general question...you disagree /c private schools
because ___________________________________________ ?  Amount of money
and means tests don't count.  This is still the concept of whether
private schools are good or bad.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The lesser of two evils is still evil." - Winston Churchill

MacPhil / iqti400@indycms.bitnet / iqti400@indycms.iupui.edu
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Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1992 08:46:24 EDT
From:         Tim Johnson <ST402711@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      a real question about international affairs...

  There was recently an event in one of the
South African black homelands in which
South African troops fired upon peaceful
demonstrators, at the order of the local
thug in charge of operations.

  I have a few questions about the incident
that I haven't been able to find answers for
in the local news coverage of the event.
(This is almost two weeks old now, I think,
so the MTV generation may have put it out of
their mind already.)

  The news described "South African Troops"
and the regional president (or whatever he
is called) as the villians in the incident
(and rightfully so - I don't dispute that.)

  Given, however, that this was a black
homeland, it seems likely that the head
honcho was black - I guess I take that
for granted, though someone who knows may
wish to confirm this for me.

  The "South African Troops" in question, though,
were they Black or White?  The papers had no mention
of this, and all news photographs of the events (that
I have seen) show wounded Black demonstrators and
no sign of the armed forces responsible.

  In a situation which is as racially charged as
that in South Africa, I would think that this would
be very relevant information.  Does anyone with
better news coverage know the race of the troops?

                         thanks

                               -Tim
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Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1992 11:44:23 EST
From:         macphil <IQTI400@INDYCMS.IUPUI.EDU>
Subject: Re: getting blood from a turnip: an answer to kerry s.
Comments: To: Forum for the Discussion of Politics <POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu>

On Mon, 14 Sep 1992 11:19:00 EST linda said:
>>Guess you never tried to sneak them back onto the library shelves and
>>suggest someone must have forgotten to "check them in" ???        :)
>
>>Just a thought after having seen _Sneakers_ this afternoon...
>
>aaaaach! macp.! how could you?
>but, do you really think you've pulled the wool over our eyes? no, but
>unfortunately, we can do nothing abt. such underhanded behavior.

I did not say I have done it or do it now.  I merely asked if it
had been considered!

------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The lesser of two evils is still evil." - Winston Churchill

MacPhil / iqti400@indycms.bitnet / iqti400@indycms.iupui.edu
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Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1992 12:26:00 EDT
From:         CMORRISO@SNYESCVA.BITNET
Subject:      Mother of all election promises.

News flash from Radio France:  President Mitterend has said that if there
is a yes vote on Maastrecht he may resign.

Chris Morrison
PS--  Boy will I be happy to see the last of that turkey!
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Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1992 14:18:00 EDT
From:         CMORRISO@SNYESCVA.BITNET
Subject: Re: getting blood from a turnip: an answer to kerry s.

In my library you have to run around yelling at people when a book that is
marked on the computer as being in the library is not there, and you have
to persuade them that yes, you have checked all the usual places and they
just aren't there either.  On one occasion the librarian took a book off
the shelf ans sneaked it out to someone in one of my classes who had to
do a report on the same topic as I did.  I know for a fact that he lied to
me about it.  Also, many of the books just disappear.

I'm not of course mentioning the CD-ROM's for which they only have three
machines, and the microfilm readers and microfiche readers that are mostly
broken down so that there are always too many users for the ones that work,
or the fact that you will soon go blind trying to read these damnthings for
any length of time.  Of course, the people that work in the library are for
the most part nice (especially if you help them out now and then without
pay -- which helps you to learn the system anyway).  The library hours are
also good.  Of course, they haven't bought many books lately.  Etc.  End
of Rant (EOR).

Chris Morrison
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