HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: beaver@castor.cs.psu.EDU (Don Beaver)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: denial
Date: 9 Oct 92 15:49:04 GMT

In article <Bvo9Cq.Au8@news.cso.uiuc.edu> levine@symcom.math.uiuc.EDU (Lenore Levine) writes:
>dgross@zeus.calpoly.edu (Dave Gross) writes:
>
>>I realize that me-too-ism has irritated many people in soc.feminism,
>>but I couldn't help but respond to this post.  Denial and
>>insensitivity is yet another sexism complaint that turns out to be a
>>two-way street.
>
>(Sexism story...)
>
>>	I'm in the women's studies minor at Cal Poly.  One quarter, I
>>	was taking a WS class, and the professor would occasionally
>>	start the class with a joke.  These jokes usually targeted
>>	men, and on a couple of occasions the jokes were very
>>	offensive.  One I remember was about a flasher who asked a
>>	woman "Well, what do you think?" and she responded, "It looks
>>	like a penis, only smaller..."
>
>>	Kind of amusing, but I'm sure you can guess that with the
>>	genders reversed, the joke would have been considered sexist,
>>	offensive, and possibly sexual harassment.
>
>>	The real punchline, though, came the following quarter, when I
>>	had the same professor again for a different WS class.  She
>>	was doing a unit on sexual harassment and made the following
>>	comment:
>
>>		"There are still some professors here at Poly who
>>		 don't realize that making jokes about womens' anatomy
>>		 constitutes sexual harassment."
>
>>	So there you have it.  Denial from a professor of the New
>>	Sensitivity.
>
>But remember, this joke was told about a *flasher* -- that is, a
>man engaged in scary emotional abuse of women. (And it is
>very, very frightening to be flashed on a twilit street...You
>don't know what the creep is going to do next.)
>
>This man wasn't getting naked for any good reason...And I'm all for
>any tactic which would defeat his purpose (to terrify the woman).

What would you say to the collection of jokes against
"golddigging" women -- who are probably as common as "flashers,"
and who are engaged in emotional (and fiscal) abuse of men?

I'd be pretty offended if a lecturer told one, and I wouldn't be
surprised if he lost his job.  I would be even more offended if he
made a point of complaining about derogatory jokes.

I'm getting less surprised to hear excuses made for sexist actions
by women.  I'm also getting less surprised about a so-called "backlash,"
in view of these examples.  (Don't take it as a flame; it's not.  It's
an empirical observation IMHO about how things have developed.)

Don
--
beaver@cs.psu.edu                       Opinions from the PC-challenged

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From: beaver@castor.cs.psu.edu (Don Beaver)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: What is Humor? (Re: denial)
Date: 8 Oct 1992 18:46:35 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
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In article <1b1p9bINNd7d@agate.berkeley.edu> cindy@meshugge.media.mit.edu (Cindy Blank-Edelman) writes:
>I wonder a few things:
>
>--Isn't all humor based on laughing at some kind of pain?

Somebody famous said that -- I just can't recall who...


>--When does humor cross the line into insensitivity?

To get to the other side?  Oops.  Seriously: it often seems it 
only crosses the line when it is at the cost of women and minorities.


>--Do most feminists just not find typical anti-male jokes funny?
>(Maybe I'm in the minority, here.)

I'm a man and not a feminist; I find some anti-male jokes funny
and some anti-female jokes funny, and most a bit offensive -- and
I MOST CERTAINLY WOULD NOT TELL ONE IN A LECTURE, even if it were 
all male or all female.  

A key element is whether the audience (and teller) are bound together 
by the joke.  If the participants do not share the brunt equally,
then jokes can become insults.  Positions of power (eg., being a Women's 
Studies professor) can prevent this sharing.


>--If anti-male humor is responding to women's anger, then what is
>anti-woman humor responding to?  Men's anger?

Anger, tension, oppression, inhibition, unvoiced/unrealized insights, 
shared prejudices, a need to bond, and a need for laughter, among 
other things.  I'd say it works the same on both sides in general.

Don
-- 
beaver@cs.psu.edu                       Opinions from the PC-challenged


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From: bickis@skmath3.pa.dec.com (M. Bickis)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Women warriors and male myths (WAS: Military Quote)
Date: 7 Oct 1992 22:34:28 GMT
Organization: University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada
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In article <1992Oct3.021905.15091@leland.Stanford.EDU> 
farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf) writes:
>How is our society served by taking
>52% of us and saying that we'll be nurturing and taking 48% of us and
>saying we'll be protective?  Why not have 100% of us being nurturing
>and protective?

Because everybody can't do everything.  I certainly believe in promoting
both virtues in all people, but there may come times when we have to
commit our whole energy to one aspect.  (Isn't this the age of
specialization? :-))  Rather than having to agonize over what kind of
person one is going to be, or having it defined by some arbitrary
authority, it is better to know from the start what kind of commitment
is expected.  Think of it as drawing straws-- long straw you fight,
short straw you comfort.  Except instead of straws we draw chromosomes.

>Secondly, you seem to believe that brutality only (or mainly) occurs
>during warfare.  I don't believe this is true.  

Nor do I.  But I do know that brutality of a sort unthinkable during
peacetime is justified as necessary during wartime by men [sic] who are
not at all cruel and evil.

>Women have shown
>courage by having children, by risking their lives repeatedly to bring
>new life into the world.  I don't think this very physical courage of
>women has been acknowledged.  Odd how the physical courage of bringing
>new life into the world has been discounted, while the physical
>courage of killing others (to protect loved ones) has been admired.

Only in modern times, IMHO, has this female courage been discounted.
Partly, perhaps, because it is no longer *that* serious a risk, and also
because in North America childbirth has become a rather clinical
experience, with many men being totally unaware about what it involves.
It is this courage demanded of women that makes the strongest *valid*
argument (there are of course many spurious arguments) against women in 
combat.  To demand "protective" courage of women too would place them in
double jeopardy.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>bickis@math.usask.ca<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Mik Bickis       \,,,       .*#*.  \    University of Saskatchewan
Department of        \,,,  ^\\|//^  ```\   Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
Mathematics & Statistics \   )|(        ```\   Canada      S7N 0W0
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<S|A|S|K|A|T|C|H|E|W|A|N|>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>



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From: rberlin@jambalaya.Eng.Sun.COM (Rich Berlin)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: (none)
Date: 10 Oct 1992 20:11:08 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
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In article 92Sep30104111@remarque.berkeley.edu, muffy%remarque.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.berkeley.EDU (Muffy Barkocy) writes:
>How is it that "being beautiful" can give women power?  Basically,
>because *men* give them power because of their beauty.  There is
>nothing, as far as I know, inherently powerful about being beautiful -
>the power comes from the fact that the people *with* power value it
>enough to trade some power for it.

I don't know...what about the sociology studies that show, time after
time, that an attractive person (of either sex) is judged as more
capable, nicer, and more intelligent than an unattractive one?
This suggests to me that the value we put on physical attractiveness
goes well beyond gender or a "sex economy."  What do others think?

-- Rich



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From: bcorkum@hamp.hampshire.edu
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Help! Identity politics and video...
Date: 9 Oct 1992 16:29:23 GMT
Organization: Hampshire College
Distribution: world
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Hi, I'm new to the net.  Are there any women out there that are video makers. 
My concentration is in identity politics and representation of the LGB
community and women from within and by mass media.  My current video is about
fashion and sexuality.  

Is it bad for me as a queer woman to dress feminine?  I don't think so.  I'm
just wondering what other women think.-- 
BCorkum@hamp.hampshire.edu
The stylin' chick with an attitude. I'm studying video/LBGS/Women's stu.
"Honey there's plastic in the bed." - Heather
"I just might die with a smile on my face afterall." - Morrissey
"I've got more than one membership to more than one club." - Ani Difranco


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From: sharvy@reed.edu (V Headshape)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Sex and War
Date: 15 Oct 1992 21:08:26 GMT
Organization: Reed College, Portland, Oregon
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I've seen a lot arguments for not having women in the military which
are actually just arguments for not having a *mix* of men and women in
the military.  One possible solution, if a mix really is a problem, is
to ban men from the military, and allow only women to serve.  Most of
these anti-women-military arguments could then be turned around and used
against men.




-- 
Liberate the Weirdoes and You Liberate the Squares


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From: "Sharleen K. Beckwith" <sharleen@sierra.stanford.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Susan Faludi & Naomi Wolf
Date: 15 Oct 1992 17:16:30 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
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I just received a copy of the schedule for the San Francisco (CA) Book
Festival.

Naomi Wolf and Susan Faludi will be speaking "in conversation about 
Backlash and The Beauty Myth" at 12:30 pm on Sunday Oct. 18.  The Book
Festival will be held at the Concourse Exhibition Center, 8th &
Brannan Streets, SF.

According to the program listing "All authors participating in the
above weekend schedule will sign copies of their books...immediately
following their appearance".

Admission to the Book Festival is free.

For more information:  (415) 861-2665.

I can't go, I hope someone else can!  Give us a report if you do.

Sharleen

***


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From: Michael Wasson <mwasson@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu>
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: women warriors (soc.feminism)
Date: 15 Oct 1992 04:29:15 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
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In article <1992Oct10.205636.215@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> pmw2c@csissun12.ee.Virginia.EDU (Paul Michael Wayner) writes:
[...]
>|> |> But in all that diversity, where are the women warriors?
>
>This is true, the Soviets also had a whole unit of ground-attack
>aircraft
>that was piloted by women.  Back in the '47 war the Isrealies had women
>combat units.
>
>If you want to talk about women-warriors it is a much better to stick
>with modern examples than to dredge up the Amazons.
>
>					Paul Wayner

Check out "The Encycolpedia of Amazons" (Jessica Amanda Salmonson,
Paragon House, NY, 1991) for plenty of examples from antiquity (some
sem-i-legendary or mythological) to the present day, including the
Trung sisters (who led a rebellion against the Chinese in 1st-C Viet
Nam), Flora Sanders (fought in the Serbian army in WWI), Calamity Jane,
etc etc.


______________________________________________________________________
Mike Wasson  ---  U.Hawai'i, Manoa  --- Fat Messiah Games
----------------------------------------------------------------------
"It was one of those movies in which a computer takes over the world
and you jolly well wish it would -- anything's better than the people"
 							Joanna Russ
----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: cindy@meshugge.media.mit.EDU (Cindy Blank-Edelman)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: denial
Date: 16 Oct 92 00:16:52 GMT
	<1b1p9bINNd7d@agate.berkeley.edu> <1992Oct8.194046.1@fnalno.fnal.gov>
Organization: M.I.T. Media Laboratory

Responding to me, Daniel Holzman writes:

>> I think that the one thing such "humor" usually expresses is anger
>> towards a sexist society.  It is women fighting back, turning the
>> tables, taking revenge for all of the anti-woman stuff that is out
>> there, and for all of the anti-woman humor that we hear.

> Does this justify telling such jokes in an academic setting, where it
> will have the effect of making the environment hostile and
> uncomfortable for men?  Does this make it any less abusive of the
> professor to use her students in this way?  How is it not hipocritical
> of someone who tells anti-man jokes to complain about anti-woman
> jokes?

Good point about the academic setting.  I agree that such attempts at
humor do not belong in the classroom.

>> It is a release for me, a kind of catharsis, and a way to express my
>> frustrations without getting angry all the time.

> Is it OK, then, if men respond in kind with anti-woman jokes as a
> catharsis and release for all the anti-man stuff they're hearing from
> people who complain about all the anti-woman stuff out there?

Precisely the question I was trying to raise in the rest of my
posting, which you did not quote.  I was not trying to indicate that
anti-man jokes are "OK", I was just describing how I responded to
them, and why I might find them funny.  In fact, I stressed that I
wanted to be careful about using humor in this way, which is why I was
asking questions about the boundaries of acceptable humor.

--Cindy Blank-Edelman

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From: orourke@sophia.smith.edu (Joseph O'Rourke)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Women warriors and male myths (WAS: Military Quote)
Date: 11 Oct 1992 22:34:43 GMT
Organization: Smith College, Northampton, MA, US
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In article <Bvt4yG.Coz@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca> alubiw@maytag.uwaterloo.ca (Anna Lubiw) writes:

[Discussion of bad arguments for male children following their 
 father's profession.]
>And it eliminates the agonizing that
>teenagers currently go through to figure out what they want to be.

Although this is tangential to your point, an Indian woman I know
who returned home for an arranged marriage made the same point:
arranged marriages circumvent the difficult and time-consuming
search for a mate, and are just as likely to result in compatibility.
I was surprised to learn the "victim" accepted the bad argument!



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From: pmw2c@csissun12.ee.Virginia.EDU (Paul Michael Wayner)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Women warriors and male myths (WAS: Military Quote)
Date: 10 Oct 1992 22:55:48 GMT
Organization: University of Virginia
Distribution: world
Reply-To: pmw2c@csissun12.ee.Virginia.EDU (Paul Michael Wayner)
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In article <1b4mnoINN3mo@agate.berkeley.edu>, blchapma@eos.ncsu.edu
(BEKKI LYN) writes:
|> In article <1992Oct5.204929.17286@access.usask.ca>,
bickis@skmath3.pa.dec.COM ("M. Bickis") writes:
|> |> But in all that diversity, where are the women warriors?
|> 
|> In the history that has been stamped out by our male-dominated
|> societies.  A couple examples of warrior women that come to my
|> mind right now are the Celtic women who fought the infringement
|> of the Roman Empire, and the Amazons, who were not entirely
|> mythological.

The existance of women warriors amoung the Celts or Amazons is 
hardly a well-established fact becuase very little is known about
either of them, so talk of women warriors is generally just
speculation.
|> 
|> One other example is Joan of Ark.  Yes, she is an exception, but
|> she was living during a time when women weren't "supposed" to be
|> warriors.  And remember that she was one of those many women who
|> was burned as a witch.

Joan of Arc was a religious inspirational figure, not a foot-soldier
or even a General.

|> 
|> Many modern women have been proving themselves as warriors.  I
remember
|> hearing that the Soviets used women as snipers due to their
|> excellent marksmenship abilities.  There are also women warriors
|> fighting the rebellions in South America.

This is true, the Soviets also had a whole unit of ground-attack
aircraft
that was piloted by women.  Back in the '47 war the Isrealies had women
combat units.

If you want to talk about women-warriors it is a much better to stick
with modern examples than to dredge up the Amazons.

					Paul Wayner



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From: blchapma@eos.ncsu.edu (BEKKI LYN)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Women warriors and male myths (WAS: Military Quote)
Date: 9 Oct 1992 19:32:08 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos
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Reply-To: blchapma@eos.ncsu.edu (BEKKI LYN)
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In article <1992Oct5.204929.17286@access.usask.ca>, bickis@skmath3.pa.dec.COM ("M. Bickis") writes:
|> But in all that diversity, where are the women warriors?

In the history that has been stamped out by our male-dominated
societies.  A couple examples of warrior women that come to my
mind right now are the Celtic women who fought the infringement
of the Roman Empire, and the Amazons, who were not entirely
mythological.

One other example is Joan of Ark.  Yes, she is an exception, but
she was living during a time when women weren't "supposed" to be
warriors.  And remember that she was one of those many women who
was burned as a witch.

Many modern women have been proving themselves as warriors.  I remember
hearing that the Soviets used women as snipers due to their
excellent marksmenship abilities.  There are also women warriors
fighting the rebellions in South America.

Just because the United States does not recognize the concept of
"warrior women" does not mean that they don't exist, or have never
existed.
-- 

Bekki Lyn

************************************************************
"Today is within my reach, and tomorrow is so illusive
 But I'm still chasing time through increasing disillusion
 Forever living for the future of an illusion."

 -- FATES WARNING-- "Perfect Symmetry"
************************************************************


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Newsgroups: soc.college
From: cthorne@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Charles E Thorne)
Subject: Re: MORE TIME NEEDED DURING EXAMS
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 19:25:42 GMT

In article <1992Oct15.132443.12672@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> Isabelle.Marie-Anne.Rosso@dartmouth.edu (Isabelle Marie-Anne  Rosso) writes:
>I couldn't agree with you more. After all, if the student knows the
>material, he or she should have the possibility to demonstrate that.
>And for those who don't know the material, extra time won't make any
>difference.
>So why not reward those who have actually studied, and now command the
>subject matter.
>College exams should test knowledge, not test-taking skills (i.e. how
>fast you cab get through them).

This is sort of like the "partial credit for method" arguments.  (If you 
know how to work the problem, but screw up on the arithmetic, you should
still get most of the credit).  Unfortunately, in the real world, things
don't work that way--if an engineer is off by a factor of 10 (misplacing
the decimal point) the bridge still falls.  If a doctor is off by a factor
of 10--the method was OK, but the patient dies anyway.

Charlie


Newsgroups: soc.college