HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Casement update
From: Aengus Lawlor <RBYAML@rohvm1.rohmhaas.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 13:26:08 EST
Organization: Rohm and Haas Company

In article <CC.93Jan22103744@arran.dcs.ed.ac.uk>, cc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Chris Cooke)
says:
>In article <1993Jan20.205436.22011@e2big.mko.dec.com>
>holohan@mark.enet.dec.com (Mark Holohan) writes:
>
>   The British government revealed during the eighth trial in November 1992
>   that there may be a ninth trial arising out of the Casement Park incident
>   on March 19, 1988.  The Casement Park incident arose after two British
>   Army corporals drove into a funeral cortege in 1988.  The soldiers were
>   removed from their car after on of them fired shots.  They were then taken
>   away to Casement Park where they were shot by the IRA.
>
>Genuine question: *were* they shot by the IRA?  The media here has always
>given the impression that the two men were ripped apart limb from limb by an
>angry crowd, rather than shot.

The reports I read in the Irish media certainly said that they were stripped
and beaten by the crowd, and finally 'executed' by being shot in the back of
the head.

But I also remember that the soldiers didn't fire any shots, but did
brandish their guns, in an attempt to scare off the crowd. (They were already
under attack at this point, so there weren't trying to provoke the crowd,
but when you consider that the funeral was for a guy who had been killed at
an attack on a funeral, brandishing their guns probably did act as a
provocation).
>
>--
>        -- Chris.       cc@dcs.ed.ac.uk   (on Janet, cc@uk.ac.ed.dcs)

Aengus
--
RBYAML@ROHMHAAS.COM                    Aengus Lawlor
RBYAML@ROHVM1.BITNET                   (who used to be ALAWLOR@DIT.IE)
"How about some of that famous Dublin wit, Barman?"
"Certainly, sir. Would that be Dry or Sparkling?"
From: halpin@vax.oxford.ac.uk
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Casement update
Date: 25 Jan 93 19:04:55 GMT
Organization: Oxford University VAX 6620

I called Holohan a jerk because his doctrinaire position makes the
discussion of real issues difficult. This is an example of what I
meant:

In article <288@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP>, mulligan@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP
(Raymond) writes in response to Holohan
> In article <1993Jan22.163836.20542@e2big.mko.dec.com>, han
>  writes:
...
> [MH]   It was surrounded by frightened
> [MH]   unarmed mourners.
> 
> How about,
> "It was descended upon by mob of republican thugs, who acted true to form"

Mr. Mulligan is not an extremist, but Holohan's general position
drives him to make stupid comments like this. Holohan slants the
story as if it were an attack by undercover soldiers on the
funeral, and the uninformed response is to say black to his white.
This is a truly grey situation: a really horrible attack, all the
more shocking for being literally in our own living rooms, but one
where you can, if you try, understand the motivations of the
attackers, as more-or-less ordinary people in a bizarre situation.
Not justifiable, but comprehensible.


> It gives me very
> little hope for peace, when people won't believe the evidence before there
> eyes.

Differentiate between the evidence of your eyes, and that of your
television.

Sorry for the moralising.

Brendan

Brendan Halpin                    Email: HALPIN@VAX.OXFORD.AC.UK
Nuffield College                  Phone: +44 865 278642 (work)
Oxford OX1 1NF                                   726758 (home)
United Kingdom                    PGP 2.0 key on request
From: Eamonn Gormley <E.P.Gormley@massey.ac.nz>
Subject: Re: This Favorite Lie Again.
Organization: Massey University
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1
     <1993Jan27.182018.15007@philabs.philips.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 93 04:23:09 GMT

In article <1993Jan27.182018.15007@philabs.philips.com> Damian M. Lyons,
dml@philabs.philips.com writes:
> That is why this has to be a unilateral
>British action. I think that if guarantees, such as the no United
>Ireland unless pure majority vote, are built into the system, then
>the radical Unionists are left without excuses.

Much as I would like to believe it, I see this as wishful thinking

 >There will be strife when the change is made, but I don't think we can
expect to make
>any progress without strife anymore. What I suggest will win out
>is that this compromise is the closest each community can come
>to their national aspirations without clobbering their neighbors.

  Surely, this is the crux of any potential settlement.  Is a solution
where the inevitable outcome is even greater civil strife really a
solution at all?  If it is, then is there any point in the British
government making a unilateral decision such as you describe.  Would it
not be easier for them to simply make a declaration of intent to
withdraw, then at least they wouldn't be forced to take sides (at least
publicly) in the resulting shoot-out.  I agree that it's hard to envisage
a settlement in the short run that will reduce the violence, which is why
the present political deadlock and relatively low level violence may be
seen by the British as the least of all evils.

  It will be interesting to see how the UN break-up of Bosnia into
ethnically autonomous statelets proceeds over the next few years (if it
ever gets off the ground). Might this serve as a model for a settlement
in NI, in years to come.  In some ways this would fulfill that which you
say above i.e.  "this compromise is the closest each community can come
to their national aspirations without clobbering their neighbors"  
                           Eamonn.

p.s. Apologies if the posting is not in the same thread. Lately, I cannot
get the f.....g machine to do it properly.  It must from being upside
down all the time, in NZ :->  





 *******************************************
 *Eamonn Gormley,  E-mail, E.P.Gormley@massey.ac.nz *
 *******************************************
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.british
From: dml@philabs.philips.com (Damian M. Lyons)
Subject: Re: This Favorite Lie Again.
Originator: dml@rabbit
Organization: Autonomous Systems, Philips Labs, Briarcliff Manor, NY
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 18:20:18 GMT


In article <1993Jan27.132914.8767@dcs.qmw.ac.uk>, mmh@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach) writes:
|> In article <1993Jan26.035242.17348@massey.ac.nz> E.P.Gormley@massey.ac.nz
(Eamonn Gormley) writes:
|>
|> >I have missed your previous description  for a power sharing arrangement
|> >so I cannot comment on it.  I was just wondering what are the in-built
|> >guarantees protecting the rights of the nationalist community, and more
|> >importantly how you propose to make it immune to destruction. It seems to
|> >me that any potential unilateral decision on the future of NI alienates
|> >some significant section of the community who are then hell bent on its
|> >destruction.
|> 
|> Yes, this is the point I was making. You can't have
|> power-sharing if one side refuses to share power, and the

This, of course, is the generic problem with power-sharing
initiatives in NI. I don't doubt that we'd get participation
by the Nationalists; this is a step up for them. Its effectively
a step down for Unionists however. I would not expect them to
be seen to support this. That is why this has to be a unilateral
British action. I think that if guarantees, such as the no United
Ireland unless pure majority vote, are built into the system, then
the radical Unionists are left without excuses. There will be strife
when the change is made, but I don't think we can expect to make
any progress without strife anymore. What I suggest will win out
is that this compromise is the closest each community can come
to their national aspirations without clobbering their neighbors.

Damian.

-- 
_________________________________________________________________
         Damian M. Lyons | x6444 | dml@philabs.philips.com       
_________________________________________________________________ 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: ggraham@utdallas.edu (GREGORY S GRAHAM)
Subject: Scottish history source wanted
Organization: Univ. of Texas at Dallas
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 02:36:38 GMT

I have a friend who wants to find out more about Scottish history.  She has
exhausted her local library and is looking elsewhere.  I would appreciate
any recommendations of organizations or other sources that could be contacted
for Scottish history information.

-- 

Greg Graham                                ggraham@utdallas.edu

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: crdunlea@rodan.acs.syr.EDU (Christopher R. Dunlea)
Subject: Re: Irish Books/U.S. Bookshops
Organization: Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 93 03:25:51 EST

In article <28598@dog.ee.lbl.gov> mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm) writes:
>C R Pennell writes:
>>Maybe you missed Chris' original post. Ireland's role in the history of
>>imperialism was to be on the receiving end. QUite a lot of British
>>policies which were later applied elsewhere in the Empire were first 
>>applied there (colonial policing is a classic example)
>
>[His posting arrived here much later than your followup.]
>
>I don't think I believe it, however.  It's an interesting hypothesis,
>but when you look at historical timelines, who was doing what when,
>the colonial treatment or whatever of Ireland is practically
>simultaneous with the period of English colonization -- everywhere
>else in the world.  English colonization of Ireland begins with
>the Tudors & doesn't really work until the end of Elizabeth's
>regime.  That's the same time the colonization of North America
>starts.

"Practically" isn't reality. Do you really think it irrelevant that
Walter Raleigh and Humphrey Gilbert were commissioned to oversee
the plantations of Munster, where the term "native" orginated in 
English usage, and THEN were sent to build the same garrisons, the
same military outposts in Virginia and organize the new possessions
in the SAME way? The administrative procedures developed in the 1530's
laid the groundwork for the 1600's in America, in terms of 
building a bureaucracy faithful to the Crown's orders. 
Also, remember that Ireland is the FIRST colony to revolt along
constitutional lines (1640's) and a key player in settling the
civil war between the Stuarts and the Orangists. Ireland's history
illustrates rather clearly that it was a testing ground for America and    
Asia.

>
>Isn't it at least as likely that the English practiced their
>colonialist skills out of site in Virginia & Barbados & then brot them
>back to the colony next door?  Or to their other "colonies" elsewhere
>in Britain itself?

See Nicholas Canny's article in "Strangers Within the Realm" to 
answer your question if you are interested. 
>
Chris



Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.british
From: dowling@main.mndly.umn.edu
Subject: Re: This Favorite Lie Again.
Organization: the Minnesota Daily (U of MN Student Newspaper)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 02:36:55 GMT

In article <1jpfh8INNkln@clover.csv.warwick.ac.uk> cstadgs@csv.warwick.ac.uk (Mr R J Tinsley) writes:

>In article <1993Jan22.163945.22085@bristol.ac.uk> P.Smee@bristol.ac.uk (Paul Smee) writes:
>>('Whoever holds it now gets it', which is the absolute reversal of
>>'give it back', leads to equal unpleasantries.)

>I believe the UN has a 'Whoever had held it for the past one hundred years
>gets it' policy.

>-Bob

>Or I might be horribly wrong.

I think that one belongs in the soc.culture.palestine newsgroup.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: hiscrp@nuscc.nus.sg (C R Pennell)
Subject: Re: Irish Books/U.S. Bookshops
Organization: National University of Singapore
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 01:24:37 GMT

mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm) writes:
: C R Pennell writes:
: [Responding to Ireland being considered unimportant in understanding
:  the modern world]
: #>Personally I think this is nonsense,  ....
: 
: #>and as Chris Dunlea pointed out,
: #>Ireland bulks pretty large in the history of imperialism. It's
:          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: *That* sounds like nonsense to me.
: 
: I think that a problem with "appreciating" Irish history is
: that there just isn't much to it, there isn't that much there that
: makes up what we usually think of as history.  The last time
: Ireland was an imperialist power, it was pre-literate.
: The history of the island since Norman times is made up of
: small bursts of revolutionary activity in the midst of long
: periods of sullen pastoral colonialism.  It just doesn't
: compare to the history of Bourbon France, for example.
: It missed the Reformation.  The Industrial Revolution didn't
: quite catch.  Napoleon never invaded. &c.

Maybe you missed Chris' original post. Ireland's role in the history of
imperialism was to be on the receiving end. QUite a lot of British
policies which were later applied elsewhere in the Empire were first 
applied there (colonial policing is a classic example)
 
: On the other hand it's more exciting than the history of : Norway.


Hush, you never know who's listening. We might get a thread about
Norwegian history.

Richard.
: 
: 
: 
: 
: 
: 
: 
: 
: 
: 
: 
: 
: 
: 
:
From: kieron@root.co.uk (Kieron Drake)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: California who? Murrayfield what?
Date: 27 Jan 93 19:12:22 GMT
Organization: UniSoft Ltd., London, England

In <1993Jan25.105727.5003@spcvxb.spc.edu> finlay_j@spcvxb.spc.edu writes:

>In today's news from Liam Ferrie, mention is made of the Irish
>performance at Murrayfield last weekend. Our man in Galway says he
>would not have been surprised if a certain individual who
>resides in California had been at the game.

>Anyone know what he's referring to? I'm totally lost.
Reagan?

>Also, I gather from his comments that the Irish lost, and
>badly. Can anyone supply me with a score?
They got stuffed. Score was 15-3 but they were worse than the
scoreline suggests: the second half was so boring that they
almost didn't feature in the "highlights" shown on Rugby Special
next day. A gale force wind didn't help but the bottom line is
that Scotland dominated and Ireland looked like favourites for the
wooden spoon again.
<rant on>
A belief that 15 blokes who've only met for a couple of porters before
the game and can only play for 70 minutes at international level have
any chance nowadays is more than whimsical.  The bitching and politics
in the IRFU doesn't help. I wouldn't have cared if Tony Ward had been
shagging sheep (perhaps he should have gone to NZ?); he was still one
of the best centres around at the time. The talent is there (or at
London Irish, Bath, 'Quins etc. etc.) now what's needed is the support,
organisation and commitment.
<rant off>
Not that I'd last more than 2 seconds! Anyone going to Lansdowne Rd. for
the match against England? I'm finding it a real problem getting tickets.

I seem to have got rather off the subject. Perhaps rec.sport.rugby is
the best place for follow-ups.

	kieron


>Thanks,
>Jeff Finlay 
-- 
kieron@root.co.uk	Tel: +44 71 729 3773 (or 071 729 3773 in the UK)
Kieron Drake		Fax: +44 71 729 3273 (or 071 729 3273 in the UK)
Senior Consultant, UniSoft Ltd., Spa house, Chapel Place, Rivington Street,
London EC2A 3DQ, UK
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: rlwilliams@gallua.gallaudet.edu
Subject: 8043
Organization: Gallaudet University
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 01:55:14 GMT

Hi,
	I just saw a copy of a book called "The Man Who Made Ireland," a 
biography of Michael Collins. I wonder how this book was received in 
Ireland. Is it popular? Well thought of? Is it considered accurate?

Sorry if this has been discussed to death. I know the book has been out for 
some time now.

skip
rlwilliams@gallua.bitnet
Xref: sparky soc.culture.celtic:8920 soc.culture.british:19391
From: kakleman@acpub.duke.edu (Kubilay Akleman)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: This Favorite Lie Again.
Date: 26 Jan 93 01:13:29 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.celtic
Organization: Duke University; Durham, N.C.

In article <1993Jan22.163945.22085@bristol.ac.uk> P.Smee@bristol.ac.uk (Paul Smee) writes:
>However, most of these 'Irish' Irish are 
>Gaels -- they didn't originate in Ireland, but rather invaded Ireland
>from Scotland, taking over from the Picts, about 1000-1500 years ago.
>So, by the same arguments they use, they don't belong there either, and
>ought to move back to Scotland where they belong.

>The Picts, in turn, conquered Ireland sometime back between the Bronze
>Age and the Iron Age, and so are really interlopers as well -- though
>I'm not sure who they took over from.  (The reason you don't hear much
>about them is that they were completely wiped out by the Gaels.  I
>suppose there may be a lesson in this, but it's not a very pleasant
>one.  Something along lines of 'if you're going to take over a country,
>kill off all the indigenous inhabitants, because otherwise they'll come
>back to cause trouble in a few hundred years'.  I have a vague feeling
>I've left out the Celts somewhere in there, but the same principle
>applies to them.)

I'm afraid you have your history (and ethnography) pretty mixed up: 
The Irish ARE Gaels ARE Celts. 
The Irish Gaels (also called "Scots") invaded what is today "Scotland" which 
was occupied by the Picts (according to some sources ALSO Celts) and conquered 
them, giving their name to the country they occupied. These were the same 
people who brought Christianity to what is today Scotland and indeed to most of Europe - particularly Central and Eastern Europe. 

In short: Irish, Scots, Manxmen are Gaels; 
	  Irish, Scots, Manxmen, Welsh, Cornish and Bretons are Celts.
	  Celts originated from Central Europe (what is today Switzerland and 
Austria) and occupied what is today France, Castillia, Northern Italy, Belgium 
and the British Isles. Gaels, a subgroup of these Celts, settled in Ireland 
before colonising Scotland and the Isle of Man. Who lived in Ireland BEFORE the
Celts is not known and is no longer of much consequense.

Andrew
From: halpin@vax.oxford.ac.uk
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Casement update
Date: 24 Jan 93 11:08:49 GMT
Organization: Oxford University VAX 6620

In article <1993Jan22.163836.20542@e2big.mko.dec.com>,
holohan@mark.enet.dec.com (Mark Holohan) writes:

>    March 16, 1988 - Loyalist gunman launches a gun and grenade attack on
>    the mourners at the funeral of the Gibralter Three.  Three people
>    were killed and over thirty injured.
> 
>    March 19, 1988 - Unarmed mourners at the funeral of Caoimhin
>    Mac Bradaigh attempted to defend themselves against 
>    another armed intrusion.  
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Absolute bollox!
The soldiers stumbled into the funeral, and then panicked. Given
the circumstances, the crowd *reacted* as if this were another
attack.


>    The occupants of the car produced guns (I've a
>    photo of one of the undercover British soldiers drawing his weapon
>    to shoot on the unarmed crowd).  

The gun wasn't produced until after the attack was well advanced,
and was produced in misguided, and ultimately fatal, self-defence.
It wasn't to "shoot on the unarmed crowd".

And the soldiers weren't "undercover", they were off-duty. It was
simple gross stupidity to be where they were, and to react like
they did.


We could do without jerks like you painting everything in
doctrinaire black and white, because then the real issues in the
grey areas get lost.

Brendan

Brendan Halpin                    Email: HALPIN@VAX.OXFORD.AC.UK
Nuffield College                  Phone: +44 865 278642 (work)
Oxford OX1 1NF                                   726758 (home)
United Kingdom                    PGP 2.0 key on request
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: crdunlea@rodan.acs.syr.EDU (Christopher R. Dunlea)
Subject: Re: Irish Books/U.S. Bookshops
Organization: Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 93 17:42:02 EST

In article <28580@dog.ee.lbl.gov> mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm) writes:
>Christopher R. Dunlea writes:
>>Oo, temper! But if you cannot see historical criticism for what it is, 
>
>In the present debate, isn't that something like "The Emperor's
>New Clothes"?
>

I agree that it seems pointless, given someone who has never read about
Columbus (you'd think after last year he would have read his bellyful
about the man). 

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: 3169611@jeff-lab.queensu.ca (Troy Kay)
Subject: Irish Music Summer School
Summary: Irish Music Summer School
Reply-To: 3169611@jeff-lab.queensu.ca
Organization: Queen's University, Kingston
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 16:02:42 GMT

Hi there... This is for anyone who might be interested.  I got this in snail-mail to distribute to people in Comhaltas but it applies to anyone:
 
	MUSIC 
	MAKERS

	--- Learn Music in Ireland with the ---
	--- Music Makers Summer School      ---
 
They offer in their 1993 programme:

One and two week intensive tuition courses (group and individual) in various instruments including traditional Irish harp, fiddle, accordion, and whistle, taught by the ancient Irish oral method.

Tuition in other instruments upon request.

Full accomodation can be arranged and a full programme of optional leisure activities will be available.

For further details and an enrolment form please complete and return the reply slip below to the following address before end March 1993.

THE ADDRESS TO CONTACT IS:

MUSIC MAKERS SUMMER SCHOOL
Craigendarroch, Tirkeenan
Monaghan, IRELAND

FON:   047-81524
       047-51046
       088-599925

>From the US prefix the above numbers with: 011 353

...now obviously there isn't a reply form here BUT they want to know:
 
- Name
- Address
- Telephone
- Age (if under 18)
- Instruments
- Level of Proficiency (Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced)
---
+------------------------------+---------------------------------------------+
|  Troy Kay                    | Comhaltas Ceoltoiri Eireann, Canada         | 
|  Queen's University          +---------------------------------------------|
|  Kingston, Ontario, CANADA   |       Does anybody actually like the        |
+------------------------------+            Rakes of Mallow??                |
|  3169611@jeff-lab.queensu.ca |                                             |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

Xref: sparky soc.culture.celtic:8855 soc.culture.british:19225
From: tim@maths.tcd.ie (Timothy Murphy)
Subject: Dick Spring & NI
Summary: Is there really a chance ...?
Keywords: Northern Ireland Dick Spring
Organization: Dept. of Maths, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland.
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 02:31:03 GMT

This may seem absurdly optimistic,
but I feel Dick Spring may really achieve something
on Northern Ireland.

Firstly, he'll have FF over a barrel,
since they won't be able to play the green flag,
as they certainly would if FG were in government.

Secondly, it's very hard to picture Spring
as a secret IRA agent
(perhaps not too hard for the DUP?).
Surely reasonable unionists like Ken Maginnis
and the McGimpsey brothers
must be able to talk to him over a pint?
If only about that ball he dropped in Cardiff ...

Thirdly, Dick Spring invented Mrs Robinson
and the two of them represent
a new strand in Southern politics.

I saw that Cardinal Daly believes
that the violence will end this year.
Maybe he knows something that we don't know ...


-- 
Timothy Murphy  
e-mail: tim@maths.tcd.ie
tel: +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland