From: ninjam@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Marty)
Subject: Wing Chun in general.
Originator: ninjam@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 22:33:51 GMT

hahn@plugh.network.com (Peter Hahn) says:
Subject: Re: Chi Sao  (Was Re: Wing Chun style...help!)

>In article <1992Aug18.035742.18957@uwm.edu> ninjam@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Marty) writes:
>>hahn@plugh.network.com (Peter Hahn) says:
>>
>>>I see no one's going to give this poor guy a straight answer...
>>
>>Hmm that's funny.  Thought I gave him a pretty good one.
>
>Yes, indeed you did.  I hadn't seen it when I posted mine.

No prob, I had assumed you did.  My fault. :)

>>                                                          Although
>>there were specifics about the art that I generally don't give out.
>>It's generally not good ettiquete to give out alot of specifics
>>of one's style, especially in Wing Chun.
>
>So we shouldn't talk about the Secret Death Touch here, huh? :-)

Shhhh!!!  Greenoch doesn't know about ours yet!

>>Ehh...sorta.  The Forearms aren't in contact, it's usually the wrist
>
>Interesting.  Maybe I'm just doing it wrong, but I *thought* we were
>going forearm to forearm.

Well, it depends what you are doing.  As a general rule
it's the wrist area.  If your extended past that
it's incorrect structure or you should be allready doing
something.  But of course this was assuming you were talking
about pre-confrontation (no actuall hitting had started
yet).  A Tan Sao, Bon Sao, Garn Sao and many of the other defensive
blocks are going to make a natural contact in the forearm area.
So of the defensive nature in Wing Chun, the contact for "sticking" will
be more of the forearm area.  As a contact area for the
sensitivity in "overall" Wing Chun, it will be from
the palm down to the elbow joint.  What part of that area is to be
used depends on what technique is being used, and what the opponent
is doing of course.

>Yes, I was unclear.  I didn't mean "avoid" in the sense of running
>away, like a boxer.  Rather, as you say, one tries to maintain
>a good defensive structure.

Ahhhh.  :)

>>        And one does not try to maneuver inside the gaurd, rather
>>outside in, so you are punching so neither of his arms is able to
>>reach you (whether you are simply using a larp sao or any other
>>trap).  Much of the footwork in Wing Chun is designed to attribute
>>to this goal.  Rarely would you go inside the gaurd unless
>>the opponent was doing double roundhouses or something.

>Actually, this is something we've been doing a bit of lately.
>Working from the outside, go over the top with a Hin Sao, or
>underneath with -- whazzit called? -- Jao Sao?  (for the Wing
>Chun-impaired, imagine disengaging, like a foil fencer), then, of
>course, continuing to press forward to the center.

Huen Sao.  And you can use it in either direction around the
arm, outside in or indside out.  Depends on what you want
to accomplish and what the opponent is doing of course.
Yah, sounds like your doing a Huen Sao into a larp sao
or possibly pak sao.  I LOVE taking apart those overcommitied
classical Karate and Kung Fu blocks like that.  Lot's of 
fun. ;)

>I dunno if this is classical WC or not, but it seems to work ok, at
>least on people who haven't seen the trick before.  Give it a try next
>time you're in class and see if you can surprise anyone :-).

Yah, we've actually been doing that stuff for a while.  It's fairly
common in Wing Chun.  Remember though, it wouldn't matter if
someone has seen it before.  You try and practice to get a natural
flow, and then do it at a great speed.  Not like "Hey, I'm
flapping my hand around your arm, neat trick huh?".

>>>BTW, I'm told that it is emphaticly *not* good etiquette to walk
>>>into a strange Gung Fu school and ask to Chi Sao with someone.
>>>Supposedly, very shortly after doing so, you will learn more about
>>>Chi Sao than most people care to know.
>>
>>Not really.  The Chi Sao excercise is meant as a learning tool, not
>>to show your stuff.  It's how people learn, and maintain their energy
>>sensitvity.  Asking someone to do Chi Sao with you is not like
>>going into somewhere saying:
>>
>>"Ehhh....you think yourrrr Kung fu is Good?  Miiiine is better."  *
>
>Well, it's your life, but, supposedly, there are places where it will
>be taken exactly that way.  Just thought I'd try to save the original
>poster a fat lip :-).

Hehehe.  With the attitude of some people in Wing Chun, maybe it
was a good idea to warn him. ;) 
Luckily I haven't run into anyone yet in Wing Chun that treats
it in that way.  It's done fast though.  So I could see someone
getting messed up if they tried it that way and were new. :)

>-- 
>Peter Hahn           |hahn@network.com|"...In Peking, he told me, there lived a
>7600 Boone Ave. N    |+1 612 424-4888 |famous boxer who dropped down from three
>Brooklyn Park, MN USA|                |stories onto an interior courtyard
>55428                |                |without making a sound when he landed."



Who are you studying under anyways?  (reply in E-mail please.  I want
to get this conversation off the net).

Which brings me to my next topic.  I hope everyone that has read
this series of posts on Wing Chun by myself, Peter, and David has
enjoyed it and gotten something out of it.  But this is where
I bow out of it.  I have allready revealed much more about WC
then I cared too.  I have no regrets really, because I am happy
I was able to contribute to the understanding of Wing Chun by
various peoples on the net.  However, this conversation is starting
to tread dangerously close to what some people refer to as 
"trade secrets".  So at the risk of cutting the topic short, I
can no longer go into any greater depth than I allready have.
I also urge Peter and David to do the same.  Thanks one
and all for taking the time to read this thread.  I most
thoroughly enjoyed being a part of it.


Marty

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