HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: oleg@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky)
Subject: Re: "democratic" Estonia
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 20:55:06 GMT
News-Software: IBM OS/2 PM RN (NR/2) v0.1 by O. Vishnepolsky and R. Rogers
Reply-To: oleg@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky)
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

In  <1992Aug28.191145.3976@client72.comlab.ox.ac.uk>
gecas@comlab.ox.ac.uk (Kastytis Gecas) writes:
> a bunch of stuff deleted

You must put UPI, New York Times, ITAR/TASS, etc into the same company
that you keep mentioning in your post. These news agencies were consistently
reporting on human rights violations in the Baltics, and never put out
a single report on democracy violations in Russia.
I do not know about other people in my company - we are pretty thinly
spread, but I, for one, do know something about the subject, being
a former resident of Latvia and still having friends there.
You, as many other "defenders" of the Baltics, conveniently bypass
the question of equal rights for all of peoples of the region.
As far as Russian Parliament goes, it is a common practice nowadays
for one country to discuss human rights and internal affairs of others.

Oleg Vishnepolsky
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: viznyuk@physics.ucla.edu (Sergei Viznyuk)
Subject: Re: Sergei Viznyuk & Language Requirement - A correction
Organization: UCLA Department of Physics
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 92 17:56:43 GMT

In article <01GNYZ8AK3R690NHCZ@yvax.byu.edu> "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.iupui.edu> writes:
>>> From: Lesli LaRocco <ROCCO@ALBNYVM1.BITNET>
>>>
>>> Why is the language requirement considered so onerous by those in on the
>>> discussion? Isn't it reasonable to expect those who want to be citizens
>>> to speak the language, at least to some degree (I assume they don't
>>> expect fluency)?
>>
>>
>>From: SERGEI VIZNYUK <VIZNYUK@MPS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
>>
>>  When you are living in a democratic country, like e.g. US,
>>nobody would deny you a citizenship just because you cannot
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>speak English. This is a first. The second thing is that
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>the so-called "language requirement" in "newly-democratic"
>>Estonia was invented not because Estonians care about
>>how to make Russian-speakers speak Estonian, but because
>>Estonian nationalistic goverment wants to have
>------------
>
>Hmmmm. It's time to review the requirements for naturalization into the US.

  No need to post IMS regulations. I think that even you
should know that in US (unlike such "democracies" as
Estonia) nobody would deny you a citizenship JUST because
you cannot speak English. That means (if you couldn't
understand that yourself) that if you were born in US,
you become US citizen DISREGARD whether you speak or
don't speak English. The same is true about all real
democracies, and apparently is not true for new-style
"democracies" as that of Estonia.
S.V.

>Ole Christian
>(Norwegian Citizen in the US) :-)
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Ole Christian Hellum                                   Hellum@YVAX.BYU.EDU
>                                                  Brigham Young University
>                                                               Provo, Utah
>Administrator of PROGRESS@VM.BYU.EDU
>The unofficial list of Norway's Libertarian Party
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: dam@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (David Morning)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Mutlu's new name/cousin
Date: 3 Sep 92 09:57:09 GMT
Organization: Glasgow University Computing Science Dept.

henrik@kpc.com writes:


> Did Mutlu change his name to "Serdar Argic" ? Or is it his cousin ?

No, it's an imposter and a poor one at that.


Dave
-- 
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet
From: goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com (Alex Goykhman)
Subject: Re: Shafarevich and National Academy
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 18:29:39 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Chelmsford, MA

In article <1992Sep3.223703.8605@erg.sri.com> vlad@erg.sri.com (vlad) writes:
>In article <Bu0FsM.7A7@apollo.hp.com> goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com (Alex Goykhman) writes:
>>
>>    Should then Dr.Mengele become an Honorary Member of NAS
>>    because of the unique medical experiments he conducted
>>    in the Nazi concentration camps?
>>
>>    You seems to be confusing one's private and public 
>>    behaviour.  Shafarevich is an outspoken anti-semit,
>>    and as such does not belong to NAS.
>
>1) Mr. Mengele was not a scientist. Shafarevich is a great mathematician.
>
>2) Mr. Mengele is a mass murderer. Shafarevich has not committed any
>crimes.

    Dr.Mengele was a scientist who conducted his experiments on humans,
    (though some at the time claimed those were not humans).  In 
    particular, he did a lot of genetic research on identical twins.
    The fact is, he was both a scientist and a murderer.  Now, if one's
    scientific contribution is all that matters, not only should 
    Dr.Mengele's NAS membership have been considered, but his chances
    to become a member would have been directly proportionate to the
    number of people he had murdered during his experiments...

    In real life, Dr.Mengele's candidature would have never been 
    brought up because one's extra-scientific activities are not totally 
    irrelevant.  Where do we draw a line?  IMO. that should be left to 
    the NAS to decide.  If they, in their infinite wisdom, conclude that 
    anti-semits do not belong to their organization, so be it.


-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: all opinions are mine.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Xref: sparky talk.politics.soviet:7600 soc.culture.soviet:6998
From: patricia@cco.caltech.edu (Patricia M. Schwarz)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: "democratic" Estonia
Date: 2 Sep 92 19:24:23 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena

>> It is quite normal to expell the people who have come with the occupants
>> to live in a colony.
Hmmm....so this is also the right thing to do with the whites in South

Africa, and the Scots and Brits in North Ireland, and the Europeans in

America, and ..... ad infinitum.  



Old problem, to which i think the only real solution is an advance in the

global level of humanism. I used to be for for various expulsions myself, 

but really it's a problem without a stable solution. The best thing is to learn

to forgive each other for the past and make a new future.

-patricia@cco.caltech.edu
From: covdy@shemesh.metaphor.com (Ivan Covdy)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: "democratic" Estonia
Date: 29 Aug 92 00:35:55 GMT

in article <1992Aug27.092356.16987@jyu.fi>, ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) says:
# X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
[....]

# It is quite normal to expell the people who have come with the occupants
# to live in a colony. Let us taken an example: 1960's when Algeria got
# freedom, all the Frenchmen were expelled from Algeria, millions of people,
# born in Algeria. Their property were confiscated and given for the locals.
# There was no international voice about that and France took all coming
# Frenchpeople from Algeria back. So had Russia and Ukraina to do for the
# all returning russians and ukrainians from Estonia. It is normal.
# Okay, Estonia is alone when Algeria had international support. Estonia
# needs similar support now.
[....]
# Yury, compare Algeria. Compare Libya, the Italians had to come back to
# Italy from LIbya when Libya became independent. It is normal international
# praxis. Ok. Arab countries got support from everywhere. Estonia should
# get similar support.

Mr. Jarmo Ryyti has already wrote a lot of "perls".
Here are new ones.

Just another evidence that wild people live not only in Algeria and Libya,
but in Finland as well.

A Chukhonets will be a Chukhonets!


-- 
  Ivan Covdy, covdy@shemesh.metaphor.com, METAPHOR Inc.,  CA,  USA
 *** People are looking for a Mind somewhere in the Universe,      ***
 *** because on the Earth they've been finding only the Stupidity. ***
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet
From: oleg@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky)
Subject: Re: "democratic" Estonia
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 14:01:36 GMT
News-Software: IBM OS/2 PM RN (NR/2) v0.1 by O. Vishnepolsky and R. Rogers
Reply-To: oleg@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky)
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

In  <1992Aug27.092356.16987@jyu.fi>  ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:
> muh@physics.Berkeley.EDU (Yury M. Mukharsky) writes:
> : We are not talking about moving of citizens, too, you missed something,
> : we are talking about expelling them, aren't we?
> :
> It is quite normal to expell the people who have come with the occupants
> to live in a colony. Let us taken an example: 1960's when Algeria got
> freedom, all the Frenchmen were expelled from Algeria, millions of people,
> born in Algeria. Their property were confiscated and given for the locals.
> There was no international voice about that and France took all coming
> Frenchpeople from Algeria back. So had Russia and Ukraina to do for the
> all returning russians and ukrainians from Estonia. It is normal.
> Okay, Estonia is alone when Algeria had international support. Estonia
> needs similar support now.

I am happy to see that you put today's Estonia on the same row with
Algeria of the 1964. Good going, Jarmo !!!!!!!!!!! Why did not you
draw a parallel with Nazi Germany which expelled its Jews and confiscated
their property - that would have been another swell example.

Oleg Vishnepolsky
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet
From: oleg@cs.sunysb.edu (Oleg Sokolsky)
Subject: Re: Shafarevich and National Academy
Organization: SUNY at Stony Brook Computer Science Dept.
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 04:05:31 GMT

goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com (Alex Goykhman) writes, concerning Shafarevich's 
membership in the Academy of Sciences:

>    I say, expel the anti-semitic bastard.

I don't think so. My argument will most probably cause an avalanche of flames,
so be it. Remember a famous episode of an Academy Presidium Session (even if it
is folklore):

CHAIRMAN: Today we face an unprecedented act, we are about to expel a member of
	  the Academy, which has never happened before...

K.:       Why, it has happened at least once: Einstein was expelled from the
	  German Academy...

I'm not trying to compare Shafarevich to the man involved here -- God forbid, they
are incomparable. But the same argument applies to every person. Don't behave like
the worst did. Be civilized!

Oleg

-- Additional disclaimer: opinion is mine only since I'm not giving it away. Flames
   here, please.

--

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Oleg Sokolsky     | Dept. of Comp.Sci. | - Are you interested in       |
                  | SUNY @ Stony Brook |   Artificial Intelligence?    |
oleg@cs.sunysb.edu|                    | - No, I prefer using natural. |
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: "democratic" Estonia
Date: 30 Aug 92 20:35:57 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Sergei Viznyuk (viznyuk@physics.ucla.edu) writes:
>But I do
>care about the Russian people whereever they live. And that is
>the main difference between the position of Estonian goverment
>as ANY other facist goverment, which puts the "rights of nation"
>before the human rights, and my position.

And my position is that I care about people no matter they are
Russian, Estonian, Macedonian or Serbian. If all you care about
are Russians, then you are no better than the one you accuse for
being "fascist".

>or put in jail its opponents, like "democratic" Estonian and
>Latvian goverment did with leaders of Russian-speaking minority.

Who? Names and times please. You may know that several of them
were active in the putsch, which even in Russia caused you to
face a trial.

>while Lithuania was all the time ahead Est.&Latv in its
>independence move and, therefore, has suffered much more
>than Est&Latv (just remember Vilnius'91), while Estonia
>was cowardly hiding behind (did you hear about any such
>protests as in Vilnius, took place in Estonia before
>dissolution USSR ?),

The difference is that no Soviet forces went to attack in Tallinn
as they did in Vilnius or Riga. Be sure, they were building barricades
in Estonia too.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
F|rst till kvarn f}r f|rst vankiva
From: freed@europa.orion.adobe.com (Alex Freed)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: You thought bugging diplomats were history?
Date: 28 Aug 92 20:18:52 GMT
	<59874@mimsy.umd.edu> <1992Aug28.011055.15173@husc3.harvard.edu>
Organization: Adobe Systems Inc

7000 students and staff sounds about right. However of this number less that
half actually lives on Dolgop campus. After 3 years students move to another
site in Moscow proper (Zuzino) and students who live in Moscow never get a
room in the hostel in the first place.

Returning to the original topic of discussion, in my FizTech days (1975) I
never heared any folklore regarding bugs wich doesn't prove anything.
--
 _______________________________________________________
| -Alex Freed (The opinions expressed are my own.   	|		    
|	        However everyone is entitled to them.)	|		    
| freed%adobe.com@uucp-gw-1.pa.dec.com			|
 -------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: oleg@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky)
Subject: Re: "democratic" Estonia
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 20:05:31 GMT
News-Software: IBM OS/2 PM RN (NR/2) v0.1 by O. Vishnepolsky and R. Rogers
Reply-To: oleg@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky)
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

In  <Aug.27.14.24.05.1992.4493@pilot.njin.net>  hubey@pilot.njin.net (Hubey) writes:
>
>
> It seems like the real point is being evaded.
>
> Country/Nation/People XX invade a piece of territory YY; invade, here
> means take by force, meaning again that against the wishes of
> the majority of the people living there.
>
> We wait for some time period TT...
>
> What happens to the people of XX origin? Are they still invaders,
> colonizers, interlopers, foreigners?
>
> The answer seems to depend on the identity of XX and YY and the
> length of time TT, and even the time period in discussion, and
> even the ethnicity of the discussers.
>
> If we make TT too long, then we'd have to leave America to
> the Indians.  IF we make TT zero or very short, then we leave
> weak countries as fair game to the stronger ones; that is any
> strong country can invade any smaller/weaker country and
> colonize it, since within a few years it will be possible to fill
> up the territory with young people (newly weds) who will produce
> enough offspring who will be born in that place and thus claim
> citizenship.
>
> How long should TT be ?  Should it always stay the same or should
> we insist that UN principles be enforced?
> --
>
>         mark

Well, you are not approaching the real point either. The real point
is simpler than that . Given that YY has gotten self-determination,
are the people of XX origin born and raised in YY should have equal
rights as people of YY origin ?
From: ptrei@bistromath.mitre.org (Peter Trei)
Subject: Re: "democratic" Estonia
Organization: The MITRE Corporation
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 21:10:33 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.190849.2883@watson.ibm.com> oleg@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky) writes:
>Another thought on the subject - while the current citizenship policies
>of the Baltic states are clearly discriminative, we have yet to see a
>single native of Estonian (or Latvian or Lithuanian) ethnicity to
>admit so. Peoples of truly democratic countries tend to have different
>opinions on most of the sensitive subjects. We know what it means for everyone
>to have the same opionion, we have seen it in Nazi Germany and in the
>Communist regimes. Come on, come ou straight and say you disagree
>and ashamed of your government policies - prove that your countries
>are democratic.

>Oleg Vishnepolsky

    Hmmm... "my government's policies"? I'm a born US citizen, and "my
government" is the US government. Doesn't mean I can't discuss
Estonia's or Russia's.

     OF COURSE the Estonian governments policies are discriminatory.
They discriminate against giving citizenship to people whose only
reason to be in Estonia is that living there is better than in Russia
- the Soviets did not have as much time to f*ck up the country and the
people as they did at home in Russia. 

     Placing barriers against "economic migrants" (such as citizen's of
Russia who want to move to Estonia for the higher standard of living)
is practised wherever relatively rich and poor countries meet - look
at the US's effort to keep out Mexicans, the Italian's to keep out
Albanians, and the Hong Kong government's to keep out Vietnamese.

     Nations have a right to maintain their national character if they
so wish, and forbidding huge numbers of foreigners from immigrating is
often a neccesary step in doing so. This is hardly something to be
ashamed of.

     If 200 million Chinese showed up at the Russian border and
requested Russian citizenship, would it be granted? Proportionatly,
this is the situation Estonia and other former Soviet colonies are
facing with respect to Russians.

      The Russians in Estonia did not come with the permission of the
Estonian people, but in the wake of the bullet and the tank.  They set
up an exploitive colonial administration, maintained by violence and
intimidation, and proceeded to run down the country just as they did
at home.

      Now they expect to be treated like invited guests.

								Peter Trei
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: ayr@gtech.com (Aleksey Y. Romanov)
Subject: Re: Coup Book and Video List
Organization: GTECH Corporation, West Greenwich RI
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 18:12:13 GMT

In article <1992Aug25.163846.7128@mahendo.jpl.nasa.gov> julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov (Julie Kangas) writes:
>In article <1992Aug25.161955.12605@gtech.com> ayr@gtech.com (Aleksey Y. Romanov) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug25.145608.5546@mahendo.jpl.nasa.gov> julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov (Julie Kangas) writes:
>>>BOOKS
>>>-----
>>>Pozner, Vladimir, _Eyewitness_ 1991
>>>	Account of the coup from Pozner.  Has a good deal
>>>	of background on the plotters and the political scene
>>>	before the coup.
>>Posner is a professional (and he is very good in this profession) lyer.
>
>How is he a liar?  I really am curious about this.
>
>Julie
>#include "std_disclaimer.h"
>#include "witty_sig.h"

For years he was a political commentator of Moscow foreign bradcast providing
foreign listeners with all sorts of lies about real situation in xUSSR.
Since the perestroika time he became one of major soviet propagandist of
soviet democracy, socialist values etc. I saw him on soviet TV. His a really
talented man. He did not look as idiot either. So, it is evident:  he himself
hardly believed in stuff he is talking about.  So, his profission was a lie
propagation, so he is a professional lier.



-- 
Aleksey Y. Romanov

DISCLAIMER: The views expressed are entirely my own and do not
necessary reflect those of my employer or anyone else
Xref: sparky talk.politics.soviet:7514 soc.culture.soviet:6967
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: "democratic" Estonia
From: ioffe@chen.bgu.ac.il (Alex Ioffe)
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 13:53:29 GMT
Organization: Ben Gurion University, Beer Sheva, Israel

oleg@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky) writes:
: In  <1992Aug27.092356.16987@jyu.fi>  ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:
: > muh@physics.Berkeley.EDU (Yury M. Mukharsky) writes:
: > : We are not talking about moving of citizens, too, you missed something,
: > : we are talking about expelling them, aren't we?
: > :
: > It is quite normal to expell the people who have come with the occupants
: > to live in a colony. Let us taken an example: 1960's when Algeria got
: > freedom, all the Frenchmen were expelled from Algeria, millions of people,
: > born in Algeria. Their property were confiscated and given for the locals.
: > There was no international voice about that and France took all coming
: > Frenchpeople from Algeria back. So had Russia and Ukraina to do for the
: > all returning russians and ukrainians from Estonia. It is normal.
: > Okay, Estonia is alone when Algeria had international support. Estonia
: > needs similar support now.
:
: I am happy to see that you put today's Estonia on the same row with
: Algeria of the 1964. Good going, Jarmo !!!!!!!!!!! Why did not you
: draw a parallel with Nazi Germany which expelled its Jews and confiscated
: their property - that would have been another swell example.
:
: Oleg Vishnepolsky

The only thing I can say is that Nazis hadn't expelled Jews. All jewish emigration from Germany was illegal!!
Their property was confiscated after they were sent to camps.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: dleschin@FEDS66.PRIME.COM (Dmitri Leschiner)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Old supporter of new independence
Date: 2 Sep 92 20:44:44 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

>
>                    RFE/RL DAILY REPORT
>
>                                       No. 168, September 2, 1992



>MOLDOVA FEARS "YUGOSLAV" SCENARIO.  Moldova's ambassador to
>Russia, Petru Lucinschi, told a news conference in Moscow on
>26 August that Moldova fears "a situation on the Yugoslav
>model in which Moldova's eastern area would be cut off" from
>the rest of the country, Izvestiia reported. The forces of
>the "Dniester republic" are using the pacification process
>and the presence of Russia's peacemaking troops in order to
>consolidate their gains and strengthen their structures of
>state power, Lucinschi said.  Alluding to a possible chain
>reaction leading to the unraveling of Moldova, Lucinschi
>expressed concern that a "victory for the 'Dniester republic'
>could have negative consequences in the [Gagauz-inhabited]
>south and other parts of the republic". (Vladimir Socor,
>RFE/RL Inc.)


Isn't that Petru Lucinschi one well known Petr Luchinsky,
who was Moldavian CC of CP first secretary at Gorbachev
times? If so, his concern of Moldova sovereignity and also
integrity could very well be understood.
Xref: sparky talk.politics.soviet:7646 soc.culture.europe:8095
From: hubey@pilot.njin.net (Hubey)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: CLINTON ON ARMENIAN GENOCIDE
Date: 3 Sep 92 21:23:39 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.soviet
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <1836jaINNl62@smaug.West.Sun.COM> Richard.Mathews@West.Sun.COM (Richard M. Mathews) writes:


> How many Turks are there living in the U.S.?  The most applicable data
> I have say that 402,000 U.S. immigrants from 1820-1989 had Turkey as
> their country of last residence.  Including the descendants of those
> immigrants, I would crudely guess that the current number of U.S.

Greece was part of 'Turkey' in 1820. Arab MIddle East was part of
Turkey before 1918.  Bulgaria was part of 'Turkey' before 1878.

This means that most of these immigrants are probably Greeks,
Bulgarians, Macedonians, Albanians, Armenians, Arabs but not 
ethic Turks.


> way, immigration from Turkey has run at about 0.7% of all immigration, so
> it would not be surprising if around 0.7% of the country was of Turkish

Nope. Until around 1970 the number of people from Turkey was 
restricted to 100 persons per year. Others probably came in on
special labor/work visas.
-- 

	mark	


   hubey@pilot.njin.net                   hubey@apollo.montclair.edu
 ...!rutgers!pilot!hubey                  hubey@logos.montclair.edu