From: ghbr@fmg.bt.co.uk (Hossein Bagherzadeh Rafsanjani)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian
Subject: Re: ...fearing Allah
Date: 5 Nov 92 10:47:46 GMT
Organization: British Telecom

In article <Bx6Iv3.5IF@ucunix.san.uc.edu> minhaszt@ucunix.san.uc.edu (Zafar T Minhas) writes:

> >In the hope of putting an ind to mud-slinging on this subject,
> >lets read Qor'an (sureh 52):
> >
> > 17. Surely those who guard (against evil) shall be in 
> > gardens and bliss
> >
> > 18. Rejoicing because of what their Lord gave them, and 
> > their Lord saved them from the punishment of the burning 
> > fire.
> >
> > 19. Eat and drink pleasantly for what you did,
> >
> > 20. Reclining on thrones set in lines, and We will unite 
> > them to large-eyed beautiful ones.
> >
> > 21. And (as for) those who believe and their offspring 
> > follow them in faith, We will unite with them their 
> > offspring and We will not diminish to them aught of their 
> > work; every man is responsible for what he shall have 
> > wrought.
> >
> > 22. And We will aid them with fruit and flesh such as they 
> > desire.
> >
> > 23. They shall pass therein from one to another a cup 
> > wherein there shall be nothing vain nor any sin.
> >
> > 24. And round them shall go boys of theirs as if they were 
> > hidden pearls.
> >
> >(Yusof-Ali's translation, not mine!)
> >
> >-hossein

Sorry.  It was M.H. Shakirs's translation, not Yusof-Ali as I first
thought. 

> the yousuf-ali translation that i have:

> 17. as to the righteous, they will be in gardens of bliss.
> 18. enjoying the (bliss) which their lord hats bestowed on them, and their 
>     lord shall deliver them from the penalty of the fire.
> 19. to them will be said "eat and drink ye, with profit and health, because
>     of your good deeds.
> 20. they will recline (with ease) on thrones (of dignity) arranged in ranks
>     and we shall join them to compnions with beautiful big and lustrous eyes.
> 21. and those who believe and those whose families follow them in faith-- to
>     them shall we join their families: nor shall we deprive them (of the fruit)
>     of aught of their works: yet is each individual in pledge of his deeds.
> 22. and we shall bestow upon them, of fruit and meat,anything they shall desire.
> 23. they shall there exchange one with another a cup free of frivolty, free of
>     all taint of ill.
> 24. round about them will serve them youths (handsome) as pearls. well guarded.
> 25. they will advance to each other engaging in mutual engagin in mutual 
>     enquiry.
> 26. they will say "aforetime, we were not without fear for the sake of our
>     people. 
> 27. "but all has been good to us and has delivered us from the penalty of the
>     scorching wind.
> 28. "truly we did call unto him from of old: truly it is he, the beneficent and
>     the merciful"

> the different editions are obviously similar. the translation from verse 17
> to 24 are almost the same. Mr. HBR, where is the mention of little boys and
> sex? 

The "little boys" mentions is in the text (by Shakir).  (And I have
only apologised for the mistake of attributing it to Yusof-Ali.)  The
actual Arabic word is "ghelmaan" which means "boys, little boys,
servants".  Look any Arabic dictionery.  And the reference to "sex"?
You did it, not me!  There seems to be a tendency in you to see things
which are not there.  I have seen similar things from you in the past.
A Freudian slip, you would say?

But then, you may argue that the reference to these youth being
"handsome" and like "pearls" is more than what you would need as mere
"servants".  Wouldn't you aggree?  Qor'an is not in the business of
using words for only their syntactical beauty, is it?

> i see something like little boys being servants passing out food and
> having a nice conversation to people living in heaven, but where is the sex
> that you are trying to prove exists? 

Again, you added sex to it, not me.  But there are good reasons for
you thinking that way, as I explained above.

> why did you not include the verses
> that followed that talk about the topic of conversation that might occur
> between the people who are rewarded heaven and the youth?

I thought I included the verses that were relevant to the subject.  You
may include the whole Qor'an as relevant.  I won't argue with that.

> Mr. HBR, alot of people seem to have the habit of taking verses out of
> context by isolating them from other verses of the quran to prove that there
> point of view is right. what is your point of view?

Now, you are going too far here.  I did NOT take verses out of
context, and your inclusion of other verses has not changed the
meaning of the verse in question.  So, stop this accusation.

> i don't know why you did this but i know alot of people would be more than
> happy to call you a liar. don't construe that i am calling you one though.

Thank you very much.  But those who have tried it have only managed to
discredit themselves.

> if you read the verses that come before that you will notice something
> interesting in verse 11, "then woe to those that treat (truth) as falsehood.
> 12 to 16 go on to talk about what will Allah do to those people who treat
> truth as falsehood, Mr. HBR.

> Oh, there is something interesting from 29 - 34, Mr. HBR, 
> 29. therefore proclaim thou the praises of thy lord for by the of thy lord,
>     thou art no vulgar soothsayer, nor art thou possessed.
> 30. or do they say:- "a poet we await for him some calamity hatched by the
>     time!"
> 31. say thou "await ye!- i too will wait along with you!"
> 32. is it that thir faculties of understanding urge them to this or are they
>     a transgressing people?
> 33. or do they say "he fabricated the message?" nay they have no faith!
> 34. let them reproduce a recital like unto it,- if it be that they speak the
>     truth!

Indeed, there are more interesting verses here and there.  I am well
aware what Qor'an contains (having read it throughly several times,
and still remember quite a lot) and with my mastery of Arabic and
Islamic knowledge (Yes, I have even a degree in that!) you donot need
to waste your time "teachimg" me about these subjects.

> the quran had already answered your
> allegation of the prophet(s) being a spychic, or a psycho or whatever it was
> you said.

In fact, I know that too (about the prophet being psychic, but not
whatever it was I said!)

> --== not the fingernail man ==--

> zafar

-hossein
Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian