From: John_Graves@cellbio.duke.edu
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Gravely Mixed Up
Date: 31 Aug 92 14:53:12 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Duke University Medical Center

In article <1992Aug29.031721.8152@macc.wisc.edu> anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess
Anderson) writes:
>
>In a long article I won't bother to cite, John Graves, who
>is a Christian minister, says, of me:

Sorry, but I don't know why you think of me as a Christian minister.  I'm a
Unitarian Universalist minister.  We have members who label themselves as
Christians, others as humanists, atheists, Pagans, Jews, Muslims, agnostics,
etc.  While I often label myself as an atheistic humanistic who finds many of
the teaching of (not about) Jesus to be valuable and can therefore fit in some
small way within the Christian umbrella I would not be a Christian by most
Christian standards.


>>While I have chided you on religious issues before, I don't
>>in any manner wish to discriminate against you because of
>>your nonreligious (what I would call religious) beliefs.

The context here, if you remember, was in a private letter to you, in which I
was referring humorously to previous letters in which you said that you had no
religious beliefs.  
>
>Exactly *what* "nonreligious beliefs" are you referring to,
>I wonder?  I'll speak to the rest of your statement when
>you've answered.

My position is that all beliefs could be considered to be religious based.  A"
non-religious belief" is a restatement about the type of religious beliefs or
perceived lack of them that you have described to me.  A "non-religious"
religion could be described as a type of religion (loosely, any system of
beliefs, practices, ethical values, etc, resembling, suggestive of, or likened
to such a system - Webster's New 20th Century Dictionary).  There are many
types of religious systems, some of which are commonly seen as religious, e.g.
Roman Catholic, Episcopal, Primitive Baptist, Reformed Judaism, Taoism,
Hinduism, Neo-Paganism, etc.  Other groups, such as the Ethical Culture
Society, the Theosophical Society, many New Age groups, etc., reject the
concept of god but still identify themselves as religions, primarily for tax
purposes.  If one agrees that a group is not necessary to the development of
ethical or belief systems, then a person who has a set of beliefs could also be
considered religious even when professing atheism.  Most religions have a
creedal or other statement of beliefs that is required for membership.  UU
congregations covenant together to affirm and support the inherent worth and
dignity of every person; justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our
congregations; a free and responsible search for truth and meaning; the right
of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations
and in society at large; the goal of world community with peace, liberty and
justice for all; and respect for the interdependent web of all existence of
which we are a part. Individuals are free to question and disagree with these
statements.   

In a 1970's study of Unitarian Universalists which compared UU's with other
religions (Miller, et al.), the authors came to the conclusion that UU's are
differently-religioned.  One distinguishing factor was that UU's rank salvation
as the last of 18 terminal values.  UU's were more concerned with human
potential and creating a better world here rather than looking for an
afterlife.  There was virtually no correlation with traditional religions
except in the middle range values where the lists were passing each other.  On
the list of instrumental values, the most interesting was that UU's ranked
loving as 2 of 18 while traditional Christians ranked loving towards the
bottom.  

It is an interesting study and the only point that I'd make which is motss
related is that independence, living an exciting life, high aesthetic
recognition, and self-actualization are all high values for unitarians and
universalists, and that it is not surprising that the Unitarian Universalist
Association is on the record as supporting and affirming gay, Lesbian, and
bisexual lives. We are not in the business of redeeming souls, but in working
towards making the world a nicer place to live for all.  

So, I'm not going to discriminate against your "non-religious" type of
religious beliefs, i.e. I will not hold it against you that you do not see
yourself as "religious."  
      
>
><> What we see depends on mainly what we look for.
><> -- John Lubbock
>-- 
>Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin
>Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson
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