From: connolly@memstvx1.memst.edu
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: Was fuer ein (Was: Case & NP-movement)
Date: 16 Oct 92 09:54:42 -0600
Organization: Memphis State University

In article <1992Oct15.173016.8646@newssrv.edvz.univie.ac.at>, A5711DAA@vm.univie.ac.at writes:
> ------------------------- Original Article -------------------------
> Path: news.univie.ac.at!hp4at!mcsun!uunet!dtix!darwin.sura.net!wupost!ukma!memst
> From: connolly@memstvx1.memst.edu
> Newsgroups: sci.lang
> Subject: Was fuer ein (Was: Case & NP-movement)
> 
>>> On a related matter [?] is there any account of the German "was fuer" or
>>> Russian "chto za" (`what kind of`) constructions that explains why the
>>> following NP is nominative?
>>German _was fuer (ein)_ can be followed by any of the four cases:
>>   Was fuer ein Mensch (NOM) ist er?  'What kind of guy is he?'
>>   Was fuer eines Menschen Auto hat sie gestohlen?  (GEN)
>>        'What kind of guy's car did she steal?'
>>   Was fuer einem Menschen hat er Bier gebracht?  (DAT)
>>        'What kind of guy did he bring beer to?'
>>Was fuer einen Menschen hat er gesehen?  (ACC)
>>   'What kind of guy did he see?'
>>In other words: _fuer_ is not a preposition in this construction
> 
> I did not read your discussion last time and just came across this
> message. However, as a native speaker of German I want to state that
> certainly no one would use the GEN, DAT or ACC construction. It does not
> sound completly ungrammatical, but we have own wh-words for each case:
> 
> wessen (GEN)
> wem (DAT)
> wen (ACC)
> 
> I admit, that these have different menaings - they ask for the being itself
> and not its properties - I think to ask for properties one would use
> modal sentences:
> 
> 
> Wie war der Mensch, dem sie Bier gebracht hat?  (DAT)
> (How has the guy been, whom she brought beer).
> (alike in all other cases).
> 
> I know that my remarks might be more dealing with pragmaitic than with
> grammatic, but I am not sure how to seperate this - if an utterance
> is never - in no circumstance - made by a native speaker.
> Benke Gertraud

I'm not a native, but my German ist pretty darned good, especially since I
learned it in Innsbruck.  (Ja, ich weiss schon, man spricht in Innsbruck
anders als in Wien, aber immerhin...)  But you don't have to trust me.
I just answered an email reply on the same post from a German in Germany
(the name escapes me at the moment) who fully accepted the dative, accu-
sative, and genitive constructions, and they certainly occur in written
German.  I do agree that they are much less common than the nominative
form and are quite rare in speech, though I think they occur.  I also
agree that I would probably use a modal construction for the oblique
cases when speaking, though it would probably come out

	Was war das fuer ein Mensch, dem sie Bier gebracht hat?

Aber schliesslich spricht man nicht ueberall gleich.  Wenn Du z.B. eine
boese Preussin waerest, haettest Du Dich ja anders unterschrieben:
nicht "Benke Gertraud" sondern "Gertraud Benke".  Und offenbar ist Dir
der Schnabel auch anders gewachsen als denen, die sagen wuerden: "Was
fuer ein Buch hast du gelesen?"  Das wuerde ich z.B. ohne weiteres
sagen, vielleicht auch deshalb, weil ich seit 1966 nicht mehr in
Oesterreich wohne und mehr mit Deutschen zu tun habe als mit
Oesterreichern (arg schade, finde ich).

--Connolly Leo