From: shamshoo@shelley.u.washington.edu (Shams Hasan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: Language on SCP
Summary: Actually, Bhangies and Chamaars in Pakistan are quite a proud lot..
Keywords: Hang loose on the Caboose !
Date: 12 Jan 93 03:42:22 GMT
Article-I.D.: shelley.1itemuINNrqq
Distribution: world
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
NNTP-Posting-Host: shelley.u.washington.edu

In article <1993Jan08.152408.3915@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM> indu@iss700.Columbia.NCR.COM () writes:
>To: brao@pollux.usc.edu
>Subject: Re: Offensive casteist usage on s.c.p.
>
>In article <1iketcINNaa7@pollux.usc.edu> you write:
>>
>>I have noticed with some chagrin that Shams Hassan (presumably a Muslim)
>>persists in using terms such as Bhangi/Chamaar in obviously derogatory
>>references to what used to be untouchable castes of the subcontinent. I
>>
>>I am also somewhat surprised and disappointed that there has been no
>>chorus of admonitions to Shams Hassan from Muslims, about this usage. 
>>Considering that Islam is based on equality and respect for human 
>>beings (or so I am informed) I would have expected Muslims to be
>>prompt and firm in condemning such casteist attitudes as displayed
>>by a fellow Muslim. I am not well-versed with social conditions in
>>present-day Pakistan, but it would appear that prejudice against
>>erstwhile untouchable castes is alive and well in Muslim Pakistan. If
>>this is true, I hope that Pakistanis will look inward and strive to
>>view all human beings as equal, and discourage contemptuous usages
>>such as Bhangi or Chamaar. 

Bhangi and Chamaar use gutter languages all the time. If Indian Bhangis/Chamaar
use Aaap Janaab type of language daily, then, I must say they are something of
a surprise to me.

Bhangis and Chamaars are a proud lot in Pakistan. And they are not untouchables
at all. It is only when they are working in filth, that people avoid shaking
hands with them. They are a part and parcel of the communitiy and always have
been as far as I have known.

>   Well said!  But what point in saying it in here. It has been proven beyond
>   poin that that fellow is incorrigible. I can appreciate, you can appreciate 
>   and any other sane-sensible-human can appreciate. But what about creatures
>   like Shams?

    Ha, ha, dear Indu, could'nt resist that itch, could you ?
    
    My dear, if you only knew..................

>   Also, I would like to remind you that YOU HAD VERY HI expectations of
>   Pakistanis? Hi expectations and low value returns.
>
>   All this trash about equality is neither exists nor practiced. I have read
>   articles  where there Islamic castes, where people are classified as 
>   Nawabs, Tailors, Kafirs, and something like that.
>   
>>As it is, I suspect that to many Pakistanis, Islam's much-vaunted equality
>>is often little more than a convenient device with which to browbeat
>>thoughtful Hindus, who are rightly troubled by the sin of untouchability. 

Rightly so. You should be troubled, those of you who have heard of Qiyamat !

>
>   Fortunately there are lot of reformers. Like the RSS, Iswara Chandra 
>   Vidya Sagar, Rammohun Roy, Dayananda,  Ramanuja, Shankara etc for these. 
>   And you find the Hindu society now changed.

    Please, spare us. Actions speak larger than words.

>
>   But  we are yet to find such reforms to uplift Women, the destitutes  in 
>   Islam. We still are to find people who can  voice for the Equality rights.

    At least we go out and work. Instead of letting the women do all the work
    and stay home to have nothing to do but make babies, and more babies.

    The destitute are the ones without dowry, who either live as spinsters or
    get burnt by their inlaws for bringing in too little.

>
>>Bapa Rao
>-Indu.
>+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
>|  My  views expressed above are made on a PERSONAL basis              |
>|  No Group or  Organization   can be held responsible                 |
>|                                ( for those in quest of truth .......)|
>+----------------------------------------------------------------------+

Best Regards,
Shams Hasan.