HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: martillo@nero.clearpoint.com (Joachim Martillo)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Anti-Arab racism on the net
Date: 30 Sep 92 18:44:38 GMT
Organization: Clearpoint Research Corp., Hopkinton Mass.

In article <1992Sep30.031121.17809@cs.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:
>In article gem4Of600ioWMNoF1x@andrew.cmu.edu, Radu Eugen Edelstein 
>  <re0x+@andrew.cmu.edu> () writes:
>>... the Romans are the ones who, almost 2,000
>>years ago, changed the name of the land from Israel (or Judea), to
>>Palestine.  Thus, the inhabitants of the land at the time (the Jews)
>>were the first ones to be called Palesinians. 

>Do you have any example of Jews being called "Palestinians" at that time?  

>>                                               The name of Palestinians
>>was still being applied to the Jewish inhabitants of the area, at the
>>begining of this century.

>Still??  It is true that Palestinian Jews referred to themselves as
>"Palestinians" during the later part of the mandate period.  However,
>I am not aware of any earlier example.  In particular, I am not aware
>of any example of members of the old Yishuv (before massive Zionist
>immigration from Europe) being called "Palestinians" by anyone, even
>themselves.  If you know otherwise, please tell us.

Perhaps not exactly to the point but 19th century French and German
Judaicist literature commonly referred to the Jerusalem Talmud as the
Palestinian Talmud.  I also have several scholarly treatises on
Palestinian Jewish Aramaic which is separate from Babylonian Jewish
Aramaic and from Palestinian Christian Aramaic.

Hostile Roman historians fairly frequently referred to Iudaei after
the destruction of Jerusalem as Palestiniani.  I vaguely remember
reading a Latin text referring to an upcoming sale of adolescentes
palestiniani who were of couse young Judean men and women taken as
slaves in punishment for the defeated rebelion.

>I should make it clear that the question of who called themselves
>"Palestinians" when is only of historical interest to me.  In my
>opinion, the right of the Arabs of Palestine to present themselves
>as a well-defined people would be exactly the same if they called
>themselves "TeddyWaddians".

Of course, only a complete unsophisticate considers the concept of
well-defined peoplehood or nationhood anything but a marketing gimmick
by which ambitious power grabbers sell a lot of unsophisticated people
on sacrificing themselves so that the power grabbers can take power
with no or negative benefit to the people who actually make the
self-sacrifice.

>>Rad

>Brendan.


-- 
Joachim Carlo Santos Martillo Ajami

The article represents noone's opinions other than the author's.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: Alan Dershowitz on Bosnia
Followup-To: talk.politics.mideast
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 13:37:58 GMT

[Anisa's article deleted to save space]

I tend to agree with Dershowitz. What is happening in Bosnia today
is horrible, it is reminiscent of the Holocaust and of Stalin's
purges, but it is not comparable to either of them.

The Nazis exterminated 12 million civilians between 1939 and 1945,
most of them by direct killing, many others by delibarate starvation
and overwork. The common use of the term "Holocaust" to describe
other atrocities trivializes the word and does no good neither
to the victims of the Nazi Holocaust nor to the current victims.

Same goes for using "Hitler" to freely. Another banalization
that obscures what Hitler was and what he did. Words should not
be used too freely, or they lose their meaning.

-Danny Keren.
From: rivk@ellis.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis)
Subject: Re: Serbia etc.
Reply-To: rivk@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 19:24:36 GMT

In article <26595@castle.ed.ac.uk> jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson) writes:
>Article in todays "Guardian":
>
>Serbs court Jewish veterrans as 'natural allies'
>.
>The Belgrade government has consistently sought the [Jewish Friendship]
>society's support in the Croation conflict. Statements from the organization 
>have lent moral justification to the Serbian cause, while television
>appearances by Mrs. Mandic and composer Enrico Josef - famous for his
>description of Serbs as "celestial people" - have reinforced the belief
>that Jews are Serbs natural allies.

This is possibly true but I know of no Jew who is buying it.

>===Jeremy Henderson===jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk=     

	-Nora

-- 
"Light one candle for those who are suffering pain we learned so long ago..."
From: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Hizbolah Attacjks SLA, UNFIL
Date: 2 Oct 1992 23:18:00 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, hernlem@che13.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem) says:

>Interesting how HA'ARETZ refers to Hezbollah fighters as "terrorists"
>when they attack occupation forces ...

The Hezbollah, with a sordid record of attacking innocent civilians and
holding hostages, certainly are terrorists and deserve to be referred to as
such, even when reporting certain actions which are not specifically
terrorist in nature, such as their attacking the SLA.

Brad Hernlem errs in referring to "occupation forces."  The SLA consists of
Lebanese citizens trying to hold onto their country, and in no way are they
occupation forces.

> ...but ignores the Israeli shelling of Lebanese villages and loss of
civilian life.
 
The unfortunate fact of life is that the Hezbollah terrorists, like other
Arab terrorists such as the PLO, make it a policy to try to protect
themselves from retaliation by basing themselves in the midst of civilian
areas.
-- 
bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: Temple Mount 
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 03:46:33 GMT

I wish to thank Mohammad Fadel for a good and interesting article.
Some questions of the top of my head:

1) Does the Quoran say anything about the age of the sacrificed son?
   In Jewish tradition, he is not a helpless kid but a grown man
   who knows what is waiting to him and accepts it.

2) Mohammad mentions Jewish prophets in his article as central
   figures in Islam. Which ones are considered important? Does
   Islam believe in their teachings? Doesn't this conflict with
   some existing customs of Islam, and/or lack of some customs,
   or is it taken that Mohammed (not Fadel :-) ) had the authority
   to introduce modifications in the Biblical code? If so, why?
   Is it believed that Jesus introduced some changes and they
   count for the Muslims too? 

   (If some people are interested, maybe we can discuss the way in
   which Christianity tackled the problem of avoiding most of the
   commands of the Biblical code). 

I am especially interested in this issue because the prophets have
always been my "favorites", so to speak. Give me one chapter
about Eliyau and take five about Shaul and David slugging it out :-).

-Danny Keren.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu (Manu)
Subject: Re: Answer to Mr John
Organization: Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1992 01:58:52 GMT

In article <1992Oct03.195342.2414015@locus.com> nkjle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes:
>In article <1992Oct2.232650.13695@muddcs.claremont.edu> gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu (Manu) writes:
>>In article <1992Oct01.185638.2403937@locus.com> jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>Listen, I am not being anti Kuwaiti here.  That's why I said Kuwaitis
>>>died for the safety of israel.  
>>
>>	Of course it's Israel's fault.  Everytime the Arabs have a problem
>>	you just blame it on Israel.  Perhaps Israel is responsible for the
>>	starving Somalians too?
>
>I wouldn't doubt it.

	Well thank you very much John for showing exactly how utterly
	ridiculous you really are.  I don't think anyone on the net
	could have done a better job.  Thanks again.

	Geoff

>
>>"The Arab governments were largely responsible for the ruin of the Palestinian
>
>There hands are not clean in the Palestine Theft tragedy.
>
	Wow!  I must be seeing things.

>jle
>
>


-- 
Email: gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu            

"The Arab governments were largely responsible for the ruin of the Palestinian
  Arabs"     -Sir John Bagot Glubb
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: nkjle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000)
Subject: Re: Answer to Mr John
Organization: LC
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1992 19:53:42 GMT

In article <1992Oct2.232650.13695@muddcs.claremont.edu> gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu (Manu) writes:
>In article <1992Oct01.185638.2403937@locus.com> jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes:
>
>
>>
>>Listen, I am not being anti Kuwaiti here.  That's why I said Kuwaitis
>>died for the safety of israel.  
>
>	Of course it's Israel's fault.  Everytime the Arabs have a problem
>	you just blame it on Israel.  Perhaps Israel is responsible for the
>	starving Somalians too?

I wouldn't doubt it.

>"The Arab governments were largely responsible for the ruin of the Palestinian

There hands are not clean in the Palestine Theft tragedy.

jle
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Alan Dershowitz on Bosnia
Date: 6 Oct 92 17:45:44 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc4.ins.cwru.edu


   While the persecution of Muslims in Bosnia is revolting beyond
my ability to describe, as a Jew, I also feel that it is wrong to
compare the atrocities of the Holocaust with the abominable death
and suffering that is being visited on the Muslims in Bosnia.  We
Jews are continually battling attempts to reduce the Holocaust to
a scale that matches other atrocities, and attempts to erase this
calamity from history.
   I cannot speak for Dershowitz, but I want to make it perfectly
clear that my discomfort at having the Holocaust used to describe
the level of suffering in other atrocities should not be taken as
an indication that I feel the suffering in Bosnia is less for the
people involved than those who were slaughtered simply because of
being Jewish.
   Holocaust aside, what is happening in Bosnia is an abomination
of the highest order.  As an American, I am ashamed that Bush has
not had the moral conviction to step in and stop it!  This is one
of the worst events that I have ever seen in my lifetime.
-- 
   "One can be a racist.  Or one can be a human being.  But one
may not be both."
                                 - Rabbi Abraham Joshua heschel
From: loeb@ai.mit.edu (Eric Loeb)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: (none)
Date: 26 Sep 92 22:39:27 GMT

Subject:  AUTOMATED CLINTON/GORE MAIL SERVICE
 
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Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Arab Jews are ARABS
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 04:23:17 GMT

In article <1992Oct1.190129.6648@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem) writes:
>In article <1992Oct1.131315.24213@das.harvard.edu>, adam@endor.uucp
>(Adam Shostack) writes:

>> In Iran, racism is institutionalized, and Jews must vote for Jewish
>> candidates, who get a number of seats proportional to the Jewish
>> population.  

>Just a thought......If you call this institutionalized racism then how
>do you classify "affirmative action"?

Inapropriate for talk.politics.mideast.  :)

(I sent you an actual response by mail, but I think that a discution
of AA would just add lots of flamage to TPM, and the newsgroup does
not need that.)

Adam

(If anyone wants to see what I wrote, mail me, and I'll send it to
you.  Its not briliant or anything, its just my thoughts, which I
don't want to post, because AA is flame-bait.)



Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all.  How true that is.      
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:20773 soc.culture.arabic:4108
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: Answer to Mr John
Date: 4 Oct 92 04:37:18 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.mideast
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <1992Sep30.180326.16736@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> kshammou@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Khaled J Shammout) writes:
>
>include the Kwaiti people.  There are good Kuwaitis just as there are bad ones.
>We do not need any more divisions and tension among us (the Arabs). We already 
>have plenty of that (I say this despite that all of my relatives, about 
>15 families, were kicked out of Kuwait along with 400,000 other Palestinians).

I am very sorry to hear this - may Allah The Almighty remember their
hardship in the Hearafter, insha'Allah.

I agree with you, brother, we cannot (nor should not) categorize everyone.
If there was just one good Kuwaiti to stand up and express their opinions
to reflect a positive and respectful tone for Palestinians collectively,
as well as condemn their government's actions, instead of accusing and
excusing the abuses of Palestinians, that would create a better enviroment
to start discussing peace between the two peoples.  And sometimes we do
have to unleash the pain, anguish, and suffering, and it isn't always
pleasant.
 
>     Also, it is very easy for us, the Arabs, to sit down and blame our
>governments, and I know that I just did that in the above paragraph. Yet, it is
>our, the Arab people, fault that we are what we are today.  We have to blame
>ourselves for letting such puppets to control us.  But we also must not forget
>to practice what we say insha'allah.

I understand what you are saying - we are responsible to a certain degree.
But (and I hate to use that word), a lot of the power is not in our hands
to free ourselves from such corrupt regimes.  History in this regard is very
clear and I'm sure you realize this.  Unfortunately people have a tendency to
rely on such puppets who fulfill their needs, while forgetting the plight and
conditions of others - and again, not always the case of everyone.

May Allah help us all.

Wa aleikum salam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu -

Anisa
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Arab Jews are ARABS
Date: 5 Oct 92 21:06:03 GMT
	<1992Oct4.173607.3799@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
	<1992Oct5.154718.3438@cs.brown.edu>
Organization: USC/Information Sciences Institute
In-reply-to: hm@cs.brown.edu's message of 5 Oct 92 15:47:18 GMT

In article <1992Oct5.154718.3438@cs.brown.edu> hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:
>
> In article <1992Oct4.173607.3799@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, kshammou@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Khaled J Shammout) writes:
> |> 
> |>      First of all, you know that there are many privileges tied with the
> |> military service in which only Jews serve, (in addition to the
> |> minorty group the Druze).  Therefore, the Arabs do not have the
> |> chance of getting many priviliges and services which require, as
> |> one of its conditions, the completion of military service.  Thus
> |> Arabs do not get many of those Housing loans, education
> |> scholarships, social security, tax breaks, etc...  And even those
> |> Druze who serve, usually end up in almost the same diprivation of
> |> such priviliges because they are considered minorty group, despite
> |> their military service.
> . . .
> By the way, ultra Orthodox Jews also do not serve in the IDF. Does
> this mean that Israel discriminates against Jews as well? Or maybe it
> is merely a sign of Israel's understanding that certain people CAN NOT
> serve in the IDF - and Israel's refusal to force service upon these people.

I once read that there is a big difference between how these groups --
Arabs and Ultra-Orthodox Jews -- are treated.  I have not been able to
confirm this elsewhere, so I wonder if any other readers of tpm know or
can find out.

Apparently, the benefits associated with military service are provided
to what the Israelis term "Yotzei Tzava", all those called up for
military service.  That does not mean anyone who *actually* *served*,
but anyone called for service, even if he/she was later released from
the duty to actually perform military service.

Now, Arabs are released en masse -- they are not even called up -- and
are therefore refused benefits (except for those who actually serve, of
course).  On the other hand, Ultra-Orthodox religious students are
released on a case-by-case basis.  They are called for an initial
interview, and after showing proof of their Yeshiva-student status are
released.  Therefore, they *are* eligible for the considerable benefits
associated with military service even though they do not end up serving.
The same holds for other Jews who are released from their duty for
medical or other reasons.  For example, it is not unusual for the IDF to
have an oversupply of female Jewish soldiers, in which case they will
notify a substantial number of Jewish women that they are relieved from
the need to join the IDF.  Such women are *not* denied the benefits
associated with military service -- unlike Arabs.
--
Yigal Arens
USC/ISI
arens@isi.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: kshammou@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Khaled J Shammout)
Subject: Re: "SALEM" (Peace)!!! means "MURDER"!!!!!!!!!!!
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1992 16:57:24 GMT


In article (52134, talk.politics.mideast) Gideon Ehrlich writes:

>But this is the main point , haled J Shammout many other Arabs in the
                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>middle east and in other places do consider killing Jews as a good
                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>action.
 ^^^^^^

     This is outrageous Gideon.  How dare you accuse me and other Arabs of
such a thing????   HOW DARE YOU!!!!!  Or is it that you can not find any valid
argument to use???
     Such accusations are arrogant, unproffessional, racist, and
anti-semetic.  I DEMAND AN IMMEDIATE APOLOGY over the same newsgroup/s
in which this accusation appeared.  And I mean immediate apology.

____________________
Khaled Shammout
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic
From: kshammou@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Khaled J Shammout)
Subject: Re: Answer to Mr John
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 18:03:26 GMT



In article <nabeel.717819870@oracle.sce.carleton.ca> nabeel@sce.carleton.ca (Na
beel Ghuzlaan) writes:
>karr@ukc.ac.uk (K.A.R.Razzooqi) writes:
>> And what the iraqis did in KUWAIT is realy realy sick.
>
>   And what Kuwaitis are doing to Palestinians is very healthy. If
>there was a single man in the Kuwaiti government, they would not
>transfer Palestinian personal files to the Mosad. But if they
>were men in the first place, they would not run away like
>prostitutes hit on by the FBI.

     I have not heard anything like that.  If this is true, then please give us
the sources.  I would like to read more about it.  However, despite what the
Kuwaiti GOVERNMENT is doing to the Palestinians, we should not generalize and
include the Kwaiti people.  There are good Kuwaitis just as there are bad ones.
We do not need any more divisions and tension among us (the Arabs).  We already 
have plenty of that (I say this despite that all of my relatives, about 
15 families, were kicked out of Kuwait along with 400,000 other Palestinians).
     Also, it is very easy for us, the Arabs, to sit down and blame our
governments, and I know that I just did that in the above paragraph. Yet, it is
our, the Arab people, fault that we are what we are today.  We have to blame
ourselves for letting such puppets to control us.  But we also must not forget
to practice what we say insha'allah.

wa Salam
-------------------
Khaled J Shammout
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Very Weak Zionist Claims Over Palestine
Date: 27 Sep 1992 01:21:21 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc10.ins.cwru.edu


   Khaled Shammout seems to forget one very important truth about
the Jews who live in Israel.  A rather large percentage ARE Arab.
They are simply not Muslim.  There are Iranian Jews, Syrian Jews,
Egyptian Jews, etc.  Are these Jews somehow not Arab?  It is true
that they are not Muslim, but they most certainly ARE Arab!  Have
the Arab countries now decided that if one is Jewish he or she is
not Arab?
-- 
   "One can be a racist.  Or one can be a human being.  But one
may not be both."
                                 - Rabbi Abraham Joshua heschel

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast