HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: stoer@hal.nta.no (Stoer Mechthild FNT)
Subject: Re: Document that! (was Re: Violent antisemitism?)
Organization: Norwegian Telecom Research
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 15:07:47 GMT

Samuel Saal writes in <1992Sep10.122810.20724@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>:
> Take a hint. Many of the descriptions come from personal and family
> descriptions and experience.  There are an awful lot of us who have family
> that survived but lost other family members to Polish antisemitism.  Some
                                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> of us can still point out that there were Poles that did help Jews  or
> that weren't antisemitic.

Take a hint yourself.
You lost your family members to German nazism, not Polish antisemitism.
No matter how many Poles helped or did not help,
it was the Germans that planned the holocaust.
Had it not been for nazism, your relatives would still be living!!!
So, could you please stop to accuse the Poles,
who did not invent that hell?

Mechthild Stoer
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish
From: sethr@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (seth.r.rosenthal)
Subject: Re: Document that! (was Re: Violent antisemitism?)
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 16:26:36 GMT
Followup-To: \soc.culture.jewish

In article <1992Sep12.000049.17861@newstand.syr.edu>, podgorny@npac.syr.edu (Marek Podgorny) writes:
> In article <1992Sep10.182216.8607@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:
> >Michal Szleper writes:
> >>Stan Krieger writes:
> >>
> 
> American Jews, who failed to organize any serious political lobbying
> in US to stop Holocaust, and this despite of the considerable political
> and financial power, are considered to have done anything possible.
> Somebody asked here: "what could they have done - NYC is 4000 miles
> from Auschwitz!". Well, I can imagine a number of things: they could
> use their contacts and their money to make every large newspaper
> in this country to write about Holocaust. They could organize printing
> of false personal documents and send them to Poland using
> existing subversion channels. They could organize printing of the false
> currency used in GG at this time and send it there (Germans falsified
> pounds and dollars for their purpose on a large scale). They could
> insist on the airborne strikes against transportation lines and
> retaliatory strikes agains German cities. Have they effectively
> and succesfully done anything like that? 
> 

This is mis-placed.  Polish towns and villages were liquidated
long before American Jews knew what was going on.  Jewish leaders
did go to Roosevelt to ask for the camps to be bombed, and Roosevelt
turned a deaf ear.   Churchhill was likewise approached.  Most
Jews felt the best chance to save the remnants was to get the
Red Army going, and millions poured from New York's Jews
to Stalin to fund the Red Army.  There was a massive rally
in Lewison Stadium where Michoels, a Russian Jewish actor
we sent by Stalin to show pictures of Majdenek and raise
money.  Polish Jewry by this time was gone.  What was
left to be saved were some ghetto's like Lodz, and
Hungaries Jews.  Remember the attempt to buy Hungary's
Jews from Himmler?


		Seth Rosenthal
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: On the SUPERIOR Role of Women
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: 4 Sep 92 06:28:23 GMT

In <1992Sep3.211047.5519@cc.gatech.edu> amir@leopard.gatech.edu (amir) writes:

    Almost everyone here loves Logic. Almost everyone is willing to listen
    to the Pentateuch. Even our most ardent logicians seem fascinated by
    the account of creation and its parallels in the theory of evolution
    (lower life forms created first, followed by more and more complex).

    By this logic, the entity created last is most superior. 

    What (or rather who) was created last?

And what are the consequences of this for women?  How should their
being superior to men be recognized?  Perhaps we men ought to get
together and decide for them!

On the other hand, since each of us, man or woman, is descended from
an equal number of men and women, perhaps we are all of equal status?
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire world		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very crowned hamantasch.
 |warren@      But the principal
/ nysernet.org is not paranoid at all.
From: faigin@aero.org (Daniel P. Faigin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: On Orthodox Monopoly
Date: 9 Sep 92 07:39:01
Organization: The Aerospace Corporation, El Segundo, CA
	<1992Sep8.223245.24953@cbnews.cb.att.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: soldan.aero.org
In-reply-to: ask@cbnews.cb.att.com's message of Tue, 8 Sep 1992 22:32:45 GMT

On Tue, 8 Sep 1992 22:32:45 GMT, ask@cbnews.cb.att.com (Arthur S. Kamlet) said:

> In article <mannj.715971400@acf9> mannj@acf9.nyu.edu (Jordan Mann) writes:

>>If I understand the Reform and Conservative correctly, they interpret the
>>(Written) Torah as literally as the Orthodox do, if not more so.  Their
>>decision not to fulfill many of the commandments results not from 
>>reinterpretation but from rejection or from the belief that these 
>>commandment are "not relevant".
> ....
>>This has no bearing on my point, which is that the Conservative and
>>Reform are the first to reject the *Written* Law.

> I will not speak for reform Judaism, but conservative Judaism does
> not reject or make irrelevant the written law.

Fine. I'll speak for Reform. Reform does not reject or make irrelevant the
written law either. Instead, it is base from which the various responsim
derive, in combination with the reflection of our historic development
contained in the Oral Law and later Judaic writings.

Daniel







--
[W]:The Aerospace Corp. M1/055 * POB 92957 * LA, CA 90009-2957 * 310/336-8228
[Email]:faigin@aerospace.aero.org              [Vmail]:310/336-5454 Box#13149
   "You can't be a rationalist in an irrational world. It isn't rational!"
	       Dr. Rance, in Joe Orton's "What the Butler Saw"
From: lbs@madeira.phys.ufl.edu (Lech Borkowski)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Auschvitz and $$$ & The Ontario Press Council
Date: 5 Sep 92 23:30:14 GMT
Organization: University of Florida Physics Department - CMT Group

In article <1992Aug31.114421.12990@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes:
>In article <87231@netnews.upenn.edu> kkniaz@eniac.seas.upenn.edu
>(Krzysztof W. Kniaz) writes:
>
>>In article <1992Aug27.120314.9728@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>
>saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes:
>>>Using typical revisionist tactics, you took this out of context.  All I
>>>said was that had there been no Poles helping the Nazis far fewer Polish
>>>Jews would have been murdered.  Compare the percentage Jewish population
>>>in Poland and in Denmark and "far" becomes very conservative.

 It is not as simple as you suggest here. See my comments below.

>Compare the percentage of Denmark's Jews saved to that of Poland.  In
>Denmark nearly 100% were saved by sneaking them out of Denmark in
>fishing boats, hiding those they couldn't get out, and even discharging
>then reregistering Jewish hospital patients as nonJews.  The Polish
>record, even taking into account the Poles that did help the Jews was
>nowhere near that.

 One obvious thing you are not mentioning is the fact that the German
occupation rules were very mild in Denmark compared to rules in Poland.
Was there a death penalty for saving Jews in Denmark as it was 
in Poland?  
 The reality of the German occupation in countries like France
or Denmark was totally different from that in Poland or Russia.
The Nazis had relatively mild policies with respect to the West European
nations. 

 It is easy to accuse the "rabidly anti-semitic Poles" on such comparison.
I think comparisons of this kind should be made more carefully.

>>BTW, you did not answer my question about the only survived commander
>>of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising.

>I don't have his name handy.  You can look it up as easily as I can.  Will
>you?  I have my doubts as it would mean reading the history of the
>uprising and seeing just how antisemitic the Polish underground was.

 If the Polish underground was so antisemitic then why would they send their
secret couriers who were putting their lives on the line to deliver
to the British and American administrations a detailed description
of the situtation of Jews in Poland including documentation
on the concentration camps?
 One of those couriers was Jan Karski. He appears briefly in Lanzman's
Shoah. 

 Lech Borkowski
From: backon@vms.huji.ac.il
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Synagogue Financing
Date: 15 Sep 92 00:01:01 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Hebrew University of Jerusalem

In article <2015@ceylon.gte.com>, sg04@ploni.gte.com (Yechezkal Shimon Gutfreund) writes:
> In article <4193@rebecca-lillian.bbn.com>, wwalker@bbn.com (Ward Walker) writes:
> |> In my immediate area, the non-orthodox synagogues' dues are about
> |> $1000 for a family membership.  However, I've seen ads recently in the
> |> local (Boston) Jewish paper for traditional shuls with dues for full
> |> family membership at $200 or $300 dollars.  I'm amazed, because just
> |> the marginal cost of a member at my synagogue is around $150 ($100
> |> UAHC dues + $50 postage, printing, etc.).
>
> I am part of a basement shtibl in Brighton/Boston where dues
> have been $150 for several years. While we also get money
> from donations and selling hakofot, I would not say it is
> a tremendous ammount. Basically, there is just not that
> much in costs if one does not need to hire a Rabbi and
> are not into building glorious edifices.


Like a colleague of mine in psychiatry once remarked, "the Orthodox don't
have an EDIFICE (a.k.a. Oedipus) Complex".

Josh
backon@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL





>
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> Yechezkal Shimon Gutfreund		 		  sgutfreund@gte.com
> GTE Laboratories, Waltham MA			    harvard!bunny!sgutfreund
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish
From: matthew@.cs.mu.oz (Maciek Blasikiewicz)
Subject: Re: Nazi camps
Organization: Computer Science, University of Melbourne, Australia
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 04:35:17 GMT

santen@dutiws.tudelft.nl (Marieke.van.Santen.IS-tel-7216) writes:

>etc. etc.
>when Auschwitz was built, it was built with the help the so called 
>"gruene" prissoners, who became the role of capo. They were mainly 
>Polish prisoners. Poland was (for jews) parted in 39 gettos. When in 
>1942 the first jewish resistance started in Vilna & Warsaw, they did not 
>only have to fight germans, but also polands (especialy the Armia kraiowa). 
>After the 1943 uprise in Treblinke, about 487 jews succeeded in escaping from 
>Treblinke most of them were killed by the Polish resistance..........
>etc. etc.

>Mischa van Vlaardingen.

Mischa, could you provide some references to support your statements?
Thanks in advance.

MB
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)
Subject: Re: When will Jews learn?!
Keywords: Anti-semitism South Africa
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 18:12:59 GMT

In <1992Sep10.170328.202741@uctvax.uct.ac.za> naturman@uctvax.uct.ac.za writes:

>Recently many South African Jews have been collecting aid packages for
>Muslims in Bosnia-Hercegovina. When they attended a rally in Cape Town in 
>support of Bosnians they were treated to the usual Israeli flag burnings and
>shouts of "Death to Zionist racists" from Cape Town Muslims. - When will Jews
>learn.

Disgusting.

On the other hand, what is happening in Bosnia Hercegovina is not much
different from what happened to Jews in the Holocaust - it's just that
the scale is much smaller.

I saw a program on CBC about a month ago about a Bosnian Muslim family
who were rescued by a Jewish family in Jerusalem.  It seems that
during WWII, the Muslim family hid the Jewish woman from the Croats,
who were at that time puppets of Hitler.  50 years later, the Jewish
woman said she was helping to pay back her debt.

We can't ignore atrocities committed against others, no matter who
they are.  Otherwise, we ourselves become undeserving of any
compassion.

--
                     |         | "Step up and shake the hand
David F. Skoll       | ||||||| |  Of someone you can't stand,
|_ _ _  __   __ _ __ |  \\V//  |  You can tolerate him if you try..."
 / |  | |_|   | |  | |  __|__  |  -- Tom Lehrer, "National Brotherhood Week"
_____|________________________________________________________________________
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)
Subject: Re: When will Jews learn?!
Originator: scj@israel.nysernet.org
Reply-To: <gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)>
Organization: Nysernet
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 16:55:37 GMT

naturman@uctvax.uct.ac.za writes:

> The good news from SA is that the organization "Jews for Justice" has
> been disbanded. This was an organization of Self-hating sycophantic Jews
> who thaught that if they lick enough Christian, Muslim and Communist
> backsides, then they wouldn't hurt us anymore grovel grovel toady.

Wouldn't it be more sanitary to get a bunch of pooper scoopers?

-Don Gertler
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish
From: rig@eng.umd.edu (Ronald Greenberg)
Subject: Re: Nazi camps
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 92 18:43:40 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park, College of Engineering

In article <1992Sep11.134056.25481@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca> jgoldber@todah.chem.utoronto.ca (Joel Goldberg) writes:
>  What does the phrase "Japanese internment camps" mean to you? Have you
>  ever heard them referred to as "American internment camps?" 
>
>  It is understood that the word "Japanese" refers to the internees and
>  not the operators. It is legitimate to use this short form since
>  anyone who might think that they were in Japan would be so ignorant
>  of the context that the phrase would convey no information to them in
>  any event.
>
>  Presumably, those who objected to the phrase "Polish death camps" would
>  substitute "Nazi" for "Polish." So now, following the model of
>  "Japanese internment camps" am I to understand that the Nazis were
>  those being put to death? Ok, "Jewish death camps." That's no
>  good, because according to the objection to "Polish," that would
>  mean the Jews operated the camps. 
>
>  It would seem that people are expected to understand the meaning
>  from a combination of common usage and context. Sure, the
>  unambiguous usage would be "Nazi operated death camps for Jews
>  located in Poland." Common usage is that the only death camps
>  were those operated by Nazis and directed (primarily) at Jews.
>  No one who knows the context would think that the word Polish
>  refers to either the operators or the victims. Anyone who
>  doesn't know the context, won't have any idea what death camps
>  are anyway.

I now realize that some of the Poles probably *are* afraid that
otherwise knowledgeable people will be confused.  Anti-semitism is and
has been so strong in Poland that the theoretical possibility of Poles
running death camps comes too close for comfort.  I don't mind
statements that many Poles are not anti-semitic, but attempts to
whitewash past and present anti-semitic activities are nauseating.

I now think I was somewhat wrong in suggesting a clamp on the "Polish
death camp" issue early on; the recounting of anti-semitic activities
and the excessive apologetics have been illuminating albeit
nauseating.  But I was right that we would get into an excessive flame
war.  I really think we've had enough at this point; let's put this
subject to rest.
-- 

Ronald I. Greenberg	(Ron)		rig@eng.umd.edu
From: tichauer@valpso.hanse.de (Manfredo Tichauer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Conversion of a Child
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 92 15:51:28 +0200
Organization: "The Private site of Manfredo Tichauer"

rothberg@bimacs.BITNET (Danny Rothenberg) writes:

> Surely all of the above should be emailed AND NOT POSTED as this is a
> PRIVATE matter.  The lady posted for some information and although
> most of the most of the posts have been decent, some, INCLUDING this
> one have been downright insulting. (btw I myself am orthodox)
> 
> Would it not be better to email directly and allow the lady concerned
> to make her own decisions.

I find THESE kind of informations are of general interest in SCJ and
should be posted (and mailed if she wants). Not everybody knows as much
as you do on Judaism. If you feel insulted, you can answer to it.
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Manfredo Tichauer M.                       EMAIL : tichauer@valpso.hanse.de
  Opitzstrasse 14                            VOICE :     (++ 49 40)  27.42.27
  2000 Hamburg 60 - GERMANY                  FAX   :     (++ 49 40) 270.53.09
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish
From: aleks@cray.com (Aleksander Mazur)
Subject: Re: Nazi camps
Date: 10 Sep 92 16:00:51 CDT


In article <Bu9ypG.2J8@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> pindor@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (Andrzej Pindor) writes:

>
>I fail to see any relevence of Israeli-Arab relations to the discussion
>about Polish-Jewish relations (other than a famous argument Soviets used to
>apply when presented with evidence that the standard of living in USA is
>higher than in SU: But you beat Blacks!). Please keep the irrelevant
>subjects off the list. 
>
>Andrzej Pindor
>
>-- 
>Andrzej Pindor
>University of Toronto
>Computing Services
>pindor@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca

One can see Israeli-Arab relations as irrelevant to other discussion,
and other can see them relevant as e.g. what standards were applied 70
years ago and what standards are applied now regarding human rights - 
that may seem quite interesting at least for some people. Who assumes 
specific subjects as irrelevant does not have to discuss those issues - 
those discussions are completely voluntary, nobody is forced to discus 
anything.  If somebody is allowed to dictate others what is relevant and what
is not for specific list eventually will become an owner of the list.
I hope Mr. Pindor did not mean anything like that and said something
without deeper thoughts. On the other hand I heard already claims.
that s.c.j is not proper forum for discussion of Arab-Israeli issues.
That also seems to be a little bit strange, why on s.c.p. Polish-Jewish
relations should be allowed in discussion (if we want to apply the same
kind of logic ) ?.If we allow to dictate some people what can be
discussed and what not then we all will be guilty of creating new class
of people who will think that they were born to dictate. After all
democracy should prevail also in our discussion - one can disagree
but others do not have to agree with him either.

A. Mazur
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish
From: dobo@cs.UAlberta.CA (W. Dobosiewicz)
Subject: Re: Violent antisemitism?
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 15:46:18 GMT

goldberg@techunix.technion.ac.il (Jacques Goldberg) writes:

>matthew@.cs.mu.oz (Maciek Blasikiewicz) writes:

>>The jewish population in Poland rose from ~6% to ~10% of the population
>>(~35 million) between the two world wars, mainly due to immigration
>>from other countries (e.g., from the Soviet Union alone came at least
>>~600000). All these people were not forced to come to Poland. They came
[...]
>    Could yuo please give the precise dates and numbers of the counting?
>Could it be that frontiers moved at least as much as Jews? My father in law
>was born Russian in Rowno, his younger brother was born Polish at the same
>place, one before WWI one after. Is that included in your "immigration"
>numbers?
>YG

I do not think Maciek can, because I think his numbers are wrong. My data
show that the total number of "repatriated" people was 1.1 million, which
makes the 600000 extremely suspicious. Secondly, the number of Jews around
1800 was already of the order of 7-10 percent in the area roughly similar
to prewar Poland.
After 1921 the balance was negative (more Jews leaving than coming) for
every year until 1939. But only around 10000 per year, 1935 excepted
(30000 that year). Surprisingly, a few hundred people came back to Poland
from "Palestine"; their religion was not recorded, but is easy to guess.

W. Dobosiewicz

Xref: sparky soc.culture.jewish:15936 soc.culture.polish:2645
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish
Subject: Re: Document that! (was Re: Violent antisemitism?)
From: etad@levels.unisa.edu.au
Date: 14 Sep 92 11:06:56 +0930
 <1992Sep10.150747.7764@nntp.nta.no> <1992Sep10.155611.29946@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>
Organization: University of South Australia

In article <1992Sep10.155611.29946@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>, saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com
writes:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: Larry Israel <VSLARRY@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL>
Subject:      Re: Masoretic Variants
Originator: scj@israel.nysernet.org
Reply-To: <Larry Israel <VSLARRY@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL>>
Organization: Nysernet
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 20:46:46 GMT

The Koren T'nah, considered by many to be carefully set, lists in the back
about three pages of significant differences. According to the explanation
in the back, the difference must lead to a difference in meaning or
significant difference in pronunciation. For example, a "haser" or "malei"
spelling (i.e., like the "yod" in Pinhas) is not listed, nor a slight
subsitution in the vowelization, such as substituting a schwa for a
hataf-patach.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: engelson-sean@CS.YALE.EDU (Sean Philip Engelson)
Subject: Shabbat in Cambridge
Organization: Yale AI Mobile Robotics Project
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 21:07:35 GMT



I'm going to be in Cambridge right after Succot (Oct. 23-25) for a AAAI Fall
Symposium which, unfortunately, runs over Shabbat.  I'm therefore looking for
ideas on what I can do to arrange for Shabbat near the hotel, since I'll have
to be there until almost Shabbat.  I hope the hotel's near enough some Jewish
area so that I won't be stuck in there all day.  The hotel is the Royal Sonesta
Hotel, 5 Cambridge Parkway.  Any suggestions would be extremely helpful; please
email as soon as possible so I can make my plans.

Thanks very much.

L'Shanah Tovah!

		-Shlomo-
-- 
Sean Philip (Shlomo) Engelson		
Yale Department of Computer Science	
Box 2158 Yale Station			
New Haven, CT 06520			
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish