From: mlee@post.RoyalRoads.ca (Malcolm Lee)
Subject: Re: THE MIND OF THE BIBLE BELIEVER
Organization: Royal Roads Military College, Victoria, B.C.
Distribution: world,public
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 20:05:43 GMT


Firstly, I would like to express my apologies to those of the alt.atheism group to whom my previous posts were sent.  I had only intended that the audience of the talk.religion.misc group be receiving these notes.  It was not my intention to offend anyone.  Thank you, Eric, for enlightening me about editing the Newsgroups line since I am still a newbie somewhat.

Anyways, here is my response to your last note:


In article <1ihmi3INNlad@shelley.u.washington.edu>, sieferme@stein.u.washington.edu (Eric Sieferman) writes:
|> In article <1993Jan6.233359.4894@ra.royalroads.ca> mlee@post.RoyalRoads.ca (Malcolm Lee) writes:
|> >
|> >In article <1if3bdINNpjp@shelley.u.washington.edu>, sieferme@stein.u.washington.edu (Eric Sieferman) writes:
|> >|> In article <1993Jan5.223146.29327@ra.royalroads.ca> mlee@post.RoyalRoads.ca (Malcolm Lee) writes:
|> >|> >
|> >|> >But we can have eternal life and the knowledge of good and evil.
|> >|> >Sure, when God placed the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil in the Garden, HE
|> >|> >knew that the people would partake of it and be condemned to death as well as 
|> >|> >all the generations that followed them.  GOD knew this!  
|> >|> 
|> >|> According to the tale, God not only knew it, he could have stopped
|> >|> it, but chose not to.  The resulting death and suffering is on
|> >|> his hands, or would be if he really existed.
|> >|> 
|> >
|> >God chose not to stop us because God gave us free will.  We chose to disobey.
|> 
|> No, Eve chose to disobey, followed by Adam.  It was God's idea
|> from the beginning to establish a system of "justice" such that
|> A&E's action would be interpreted as a suitable excuse for
|> death and suffering.  A few moments of thought could come up
|> with a better solution, so it is fair to assume that God wanted
|> things to turn out the way they did.
|> 
God intended for us the very best.  Who is it that kills?  Is it God that pulls the trigger?  Is it God who lives in a million $$$ mansion while the masses starve and die?  Look closely and you will see that we are our own worst enemy. God could banish all the suffering in the world in an instant.  BUT, He won't because He promised to give us charge of this earth until Christ's second coming.
And so far, we've been doing a pretty bad job.

 
|> >God did not create us to be robots.  He has in mind a much higher purpose for us.
|> 
|> We see two types of xtian arguments on this issue in
|> alt.atheism.  First, the xtian claims to know God's plan or
|> purpose or whatever.  Then, when the inevitable difficulties
|> in this postion are demonstrated, the xtian retreats into
|> the position that knowledge of God is impossible, or incomplete,
|> and that the xtian has faith that all is working for the best.
|> The second attitude (well expressed recently by John Muelhaussen)
|> is at least the more honest one.
|>
Hypothetically, let's say that I'm wrong in my beliefs and that there is no God.
Is my life diminished in any way by living the Christian lifestyle?  What have I
lost by giving of myself and gaining a family of brothers and sisters around me?
I'm not saying that you should become a Christian just to avoid the consequences of not being a Christian.  I'm not threatening you or anyone with Hell and damnation.  But when it is something as important as this, don't you owe it to yourself to check it out more thoroughly?  Decide for yourself, that's all I ask.
Christianity works so well for me that I would wish it for you too.
 
|> >
|> >|> Fine.  First, he creates imperfect beings and punishes them
|> >|> for being imperfect.  Then, he arranges to have a Jewish carpenter
|> >|> executed, and claims that this cancels his original error.
|> >|> What a jerk!
|> >|> 
|> >
|> >Mankind screwed up!  We are the jerks!  We are the hypocrites.
|> 
|> Have I written anything to indicate that I am a hypocrite?
|> Jerk, maybe, but not a hypocrite! :)
|> 
We are all hypocrites and at times, we are all jerks.


|> >The Church is
|> >full of hypocrites.  The only difference between the people in the Church and
|> >those outside is that the ones in Church know that they are hypocrites.  That is
|> >what it means to "be with sin" and that is why, all the more, we need redemption.
|> >That is why we need Jesus Christ.  Church is not for the saints, it is for the
|> >sinners.
|> 
|> You still don't get it.  It is God (in your cosmology) who has
|> decided that "sin" deserves total and eternal torment.  He
|> set up the system and keeps it going.  Who would want to spend
|> a quiet dinner with this guy, much less all eternity?
|> 
The torment that you are referring to is not eternal.  It only lasts until the Lake of Fire, which is oblivion.  God cannot abide by sin and He will not tolerate it in His presence.  That is why He abandoned Jesus when he was on the cross since Jesus took on the fullness of the world's sins.  The torment of being in Hell is pain that comes from the total abscense of God.  While we are on earth, a small part of God resides with each and every one of us.  Sometimes, we refer to it as our conscience.  In Hell



, God removes all of His presence from us and that is the pain one would feel in Hell.  It is not pain from excessive heat as most people are led to believe but it is the agony of being utterly alone without God.

|> >
|> >|> >We are living in the age of grace whereby we may be saved IF we
|> >|> >choose to follow Jesus.
|> >|> 
|> >|> I chose to follow Jesus several years ago, so I guess that 
|> >|> I am saved.  
|> >|> 
|> >
|> >I can't speak for your salvation.  I am not your judge nor am I your
|> >executioner.  I am a messenger.
|> 
|> There has been no shortage of other posters who were eager
|> to comment on my salvation.  I bring up my previous "conversion"
|> to point out that the meaning of salvation, and the means to
|> achieve it, have been debated by xtians for over 1900 years,
|> without reaching any agreement.  According to some traditions,
|> my previous conversion will hold me in good stead after death;
|> according to other traditions, I am doomed.
|> 
The only way to Heaven is through Christ Jesus.

 
|> >|> 
|> >|> Before he was hanged, Westley Allen Dodd claimed to have 
|> >|> accepted Jesus as his savior, so we can assume that he
|> >|> will have eternal life.  His young victims, murdered at
|> >|> age 4 or so, never had the chance to accept Jesus,
|> >|> so they probably don't have eternal life.
|> >|> 
|> >
|> >Our God is a fair and just God.  He would take in account the circumstances of
|> >those young victims.
|> >As for Westley A Dodd, I can't speak for his salvation.  
|> >It is not my place to do so.
|> 
|> First you claim to know the path to salvation (and are willing
|> to spread it in alt.atheism), but you are unwilling to comment
|> on specific scenarios.  You are right, there is a lot of
|> hypocricy in the church!
|> 
Let me clarify.  God knows about the victims, but God also knows whether or not they would have come to know Him if they were allowed to live.  Their fate is known to Him.  Westley A Dodd says that he is saved but it may not necessarily mean that he is.  That is for God to judge, not me.  As a Christian, I am inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt as I would anyone else.

Yes, Christians are hypocrites and we are sinners.  We know it and try to do something about it.  We don't always succeed but it is the trying that counts.


|> >|> There is no debate.  You are posting the same old tired 
|> >|> xtian drivel in alt.atheist, a serious breach of manners.
|> >|>
|> >The board I'm posting to here is called talk.religion.misc and I am not aware of
|> >it going anywhere else.  Any so doing is unintentional.
|> > 
|> 
|> OK.  Put down you bible for a few moments and learn
|> how to edit the "newsgroups" line.  :)
|> 
|> (remainder of same old stuff, deleted)
|> -- 
|> ---------------------------------------------------------------
|> Hi!  I'm .Siggy, the National .Sig Foundation poster child.
|> ---------------------------------------------------------------
|> 
Thank you.
God loves, Man kills.
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,talk.religion.misc