From: pdb059@ipl.jpl.nasa.gov (Paul Bartholomew)
Newsgroups: ca.politics
Subject: Re: Why "Child Abuse Causes Homosexuality" Really Doesn't Fly
Date: 15 Oct 92 08:11:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Image Processing Lab

In article <12745@optilink.UUCP>, cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:
> In article <98566@bu.edu>, kane@buast7.bu.edu (Hot Young Star) writes:
> 
>> Let's start off with some pessimistic assumptions:
>> 
>> 1. All boy-molesters are either homosexuals or closet homosexuals. (One
>> can find a lot of sources that say otherwise---among the ones that Clayton
>> and I have mentioned are Abel and Harlow, Groth and Birnbaum, and Goldstein;
>> each says adult sexual orientation is separate from pedophilic preference)
> 
> And the sources I have quoted indicate otherwise.

No, Clayton.  Of the information you posted, only one clearly stated that.

Let me quote from your "Mother, part 3" article.

Bagley & King--"Abuse of both males and females was overwhelmingly at the
hands of males, so the abuse of of boys was usually homosexual in nature."

Faller--"The encounters with female victims were usually heterosexual (94%),
whereas for males they were usually homosexual (84%)."

Please read these excerpts carefully.  They do not say what you claim they
do.  In fact, all they say is that the majority of molestations are done
by men (no surprise there).  They say nothing about the adult sexual
orientation of the molester.

If either of these two studies does explicity discuss the orientation of
the molester, you didn't post that relevant information.  Therefore, I must
conclude that only one of the three studies you cited actually supports
your claim.  If this is in fact incorrect, please do post the relevant
statements from Faller and Bagley & King.

If the studies Brian cites support his claim, then I'd say the balance of
evidence is on his side.  Note that I said "if"; Brian hasn't posted the
relevant statements from his sources, either.

>> 4. Boy-molesters have many more victims than girl molesters. The ratio is
>> roughly 250 to 20.

> Reported cases.  As a Everstine & Everstine point out, the real number
> of boy victims is probably much higher.

Seems to me that I've read that the number of reported cases in female
molestation is also quite low and that the number of victims is probably
much higher.

> As I pointed out in with one of the quotations, the circumstances 
> that cause a molestation victim to become a pedophile are apparently
> quite specific.  But because the pedophile has so many victims, if
> even a fraction of his victims become homosexuals, it could explain
> the current numbers of homosexuals.

You do realize that you are implying that all homosexuals were molested as
children, don't you?  If that's what you intend to imply, why don't you just
come right out and say it?

> Yup.  Men who like to have sex with boys aren't homosexuals.  I 
> understand.

Thank you.  It's about time.  Given the fact that many professionals in the
mental health field believe this, why should you find it so hard to accept?

>> Later postings I shall address the issue of when sexuality develops, and
>> compare this age to the average age of molestation. I shall show you that
>> most psychologists and psychiatrists believe that sexuality become established
>> well BEFORE the bulk of molestation incidents occur.
> 
> Yet the sources I posted indicated otherwise.

No, only one source you posted indicated otherwise.  Additionally, they
waffled around on the subject by claiming that, "it is not very likely
that the young child has a real sense of homosexual orientation".  Note
that they did not rule it out. [Masters & Johnson]

Again, if more than one of your sources supports this, may we see the
relevant statement(s)?

> Do you really not believe that sexual trauma on a child will affect
> their sexuality?

I'm curious, Clayton.  Do you really not believe that there are homosexuals
who simply don't fit into the mold you're trying to create?  With this
posting, you've gone even farther out onto the limb of claiming that all
homosexuals were molested as children.  Let me just ask you straight out:
what percentage of homosexuals do you believe were molested as children?

By the evidence you've posted, some (unspecified number) of men who were
molested as children become homosexual as adults.  Let me ask a second
question:  what is this unspecified number?  How many men who were molested
as boys actually become gay?

The evidence you've posted to date does not support a linkage in the other
direction--that [all] homosexuals were molested as children.  What are your
sources for this belief?  Or if I've misstated your views, what are they
exactly?

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Paul Bartholomew          |   "The time has come, the walrus said, to talk of
                          |    many things..."                  Lewis Carroll
pdb059@ipl.jpl.nasa.gov   |   Disclaimer:  Opinions?  What opinions?
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Newsgroups: ca.politics