HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: johnm@cajal.uoregon.edu (John Martin)
Newsgroups: alt.divination
Subject: Re: Ouija, protection
Keywords: n
Date: 29 Jul 92 20:08:11 GMT
Organization: Institute of Neuroscience, University of Oregon

In article <e15moB1w164w@ailanth.UUCP>, ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy) writes:

>gelabert@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Teodoro E Gelabert) writes:
>
>> 
>> I have seen many warnings against using a Ouija board without some
>> protection in place.  Could anyone tell me some specifics about placing
>> this protection in place?  Please feel free to e-mail me so as not to
>> fill the board with information others may not need. 
>> 
>
>piffle.  people are very superstitious about ouija boards, pure & simple. 
>ouija follows the same principle as automatic writing, except that it is 
>a bit easier...
>

You are right and wrong.  The Ouija board does follow the same primciples,
and does make it a LOT easier.  It is this business of making it easier
that provides the danger.  Persons who use other methods learn certain
amounts of control that provides protection by virtue of the difficulties
of getting the process to work.  With the Ouija board, there are very
little such difficulties.

I think to classify those of us who are cautious regarding the board as
"superstitious" is rather unfair.  My reservations about the board, as
well as the reservations of most of the persons who posted on the sunbject,
are based upon actual experiences and observations, not some pansy
theoretical fear!


-- 
John Martin                                        johnm@cajal.uoregon.edu
Institute of Neuroscience,   University of Oregon,    Eugene, OR,    97402
From: jamie@cs.sfu.ca (Jamie Andrews)
Subject: Re: New divination systems?
Organization: CSS, Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 18:31:52 GMT

In article <1992Jul26.102001.10@and.csc.liv.ac.uk> killip@csc.liv.ac.uk (Mr. L.T. Killip) writes:
>I suggest that this person go and read the Book of Thoth and find out what
>someone who knew what they were doing did towards fusions of
>tarot/astrology/kaballah.

     I agree that he should look at Crowley's work, insofar as
it is very similar to what he was proposing, but I don't feel
that I would be so categorical as to say that Crowley "knew what
he was doing".  A lot of the work of the English mystics around
the turn of the century seems to me to be based on pretty wild
misperceptions.  The whole idea that the Tarot was Egyptian was
rooted in 18th-century (pre-Rosetta Stone) speculations about
the nature of Egyptian society.  I don't know how much Crowley
genuinely believed that idea.

     Personally I find Crowley's long lists of correspondances
between cards, planets in signs, gods, drugs, paths in the Tree
of Life, and so on quite dreary.  

--Jamie.                       ,
  jamie@cs.sfu.ca           (-:=
"Cool... clear... Usenet"      `   (not)
From: cranmer@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu
Newsgroups: alt.divination
Subject: Re: New divination systems!
Date: 28 Jul 92 16:07:11 EDT

Hello,

Mr. L. T. Killip (killip@csc.liv.ac.uk) quotes me, and writes:
 
>>  Has anyone reading this newsgroup experimented with creating their own
>>systems of divination?   I'm currently experimenting with fusions between
>>the Tarot and astrology.  I like the idea of using cards (albeit in smaller
>>groups than 78!), but the symbolism in astrology -- the planets, signs,
>>aspects, etc. -- is appealing as well.
>>
>>  And I've seen those "Karma Cards" (I think this is what they are called)
>>that have the querent choose a planet, house, and sign, but I'm looking to
>>create something a little more detailed and substantive (as well as trying
>>to bring in the Kaballah).
> 
>I suggest that this person go and read the Book of Thoth and find out what
>someone who knew what they were doing did towards fusions of
>tarot/astrology/kaballah. There are no new ideas under the sun or any other
>heavenly body, but there are people with experience and people with none
>;-}.

Ummm, do you know anything about my 'experience'?

And a Thelemic appeal to authority (the Book of Thoth) gets no points with
me.  We all have to figure out our own 'Great Work' for ourselves, and
while reading and studying the works of learned people is valuable, the
"Creative" must be balanced with the "Receptive" (forgiving my Taoist
terminology).  Don't just accept the works of Masters blindly!  Act on
them, re-act to them, and act yet again!

No new ideas under the sun?  My, how fatalistic.  Does the idea of writing
prose or poetry seem worthless to you?  It must, because there is no
possibility of generating any new concepts, correct?

					- Steve Cranmer

PS - It's considered bad form to hide a flame behind a smiley.  ;-}
From: dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap)
Newsgroups: alt.divination
Subject: Re: Ouija, protection
Keywords: n
Date: 30 Jul 92 20:37:17 GMT
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <1992Jul29.200811.7823@nntp.uoregon.edu> johnm@cajal.uoregon.edu (John Martin) writes:
>You are right and wrong.  The Ouija board does follow the same primciples,
>and does make it a LOT easier.  It is this business of making it easier
>that provides the danger.  Persons who use other methods learn certain
>amounts of control that provides protection by virtue of the difficulties
>of getting the process to work.  With the Ouija board, there are very
>little such difficulties.
>
>I think to classify those of us who are cautious regarding the board as
>"superstitious" is rather unfair.  My reservations about the board, as
>well as the reservations of most of the persons who posted on the sunbject,
>are based upon actual experiences and observations, not some pansy
>theoretical fear!

I'll agree.  From my own first-hand experiences, a Ouiga board makes
things much too easy.  It is very simple to call things to you.  They
communicate and everyone has a good time.  Unfortunately, sometimes
you can call up something that doesn't want to go home when you're
done.  Often, these things just hang around and watch and go away
bored, but you sometimes get one that decides to have fun with you and
the other participants.

It also seems that a person with genuine power (especially one who
hasn't learned how to control it yet) can get into these situations
rather easilly.

Don't ask how.  I don't know the mechanics.  But this is real.  I've
had entities channeled through the board that said things about me
only I knew - and I wasn't using the board at the time.  That's proof
enough in my book.
-- 
   |)  David Charlap           "I don't even represent myself
  /|_  dic5340@hertz.njit.edu   sometimes so NJIT is right out!.
 ((|,)
  ~|~  Hi! I am a .signature virus, copy me into your .signature file.
Newsgroups: alt.divination
From: buboo@alf.uib.no (Ove Ruben R Olsen)
Subject: Re: new Tarot person
Organization: University of Bergen, Norway
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 07:54:43 GMT

John P Onorato writes:
>
>
>Hello, gentlebeings:
>
>I have just started using the Tarot.  I am still in the process of learning
>about the Celtic Tarot, which is the one that I have selected for my use. (I
>gather that most decks, although there are many of them, differ little except
>in the art on the cards.)  

I think that one should not "choose" or "select" a spread. One should try
more than one spread, to see if this particulair spread is right for you.
One should also try to build one's own spreads.

I've done it that way, after years of "book-spread". I have a much more 
accurate "hit" rate nowadays... :-)
I use a coupple of real simple spreads these days, and only on certain
occations I'm going for the full sized spread.

Another thing is, try out several decks, find one or two or three decks 
that you are familiar with. I use different decks for differenct querries.
And it also depends on what mode I'm in myself.

\Ruben.


-- 
    Ove Ruben R Olsen, Professional VI user. EMAIL: Ove.R.Olsen@ubb.uib.no
  Maintaining the Largest  VI/EX-STUFF Archive in the WORLD (alf.uib.no) and
the Comp.Editors FAQ file. If you have information about editing, new editors,
  please get in touch with me. This does not apply to EMACS type of editors.
Newsgroups: alt.divination
From: jamie@cs.sfu.ca (Jamie Andrews)
Subject: Re: New divination systems?
Organization: CSS, Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 00:03:28 GMT

In article <13053.2a6d9208@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu> cranmer@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu writes:
>   Has anyone reading this newsgroup experimented with creating their own
> systems of divination?

     For me, the ancient-ness of the divination systems I use is
part of their appeal.  But I don't exclude the possibility of a
new and psychologically appealing method being invented.

>  I'm currently experimenting with fusions between
> the Tarot and astrology....
>   And I've seen those "Karma Cards" (I think this is what they are called)
> that have the querent choose a planet, house, and sign, but I'm looking to
> create something a little more detailed and substantive (as well as trying
> to bring in the Kaballah).

     Have you looked at Crowley's "The Book of Thoth"?  He
integrates some aspects of the signs and planets, and is very
Kabalistic (Qabbalistic, Qabalahistic, whatever).

--Jamie.
From: dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap)
Newsgroups: alt.divination
Subject: Re: new Tarot person
Date: 31 Jul 92 16:48:21 GMT
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <1992Jul29.210836.18916@wixer.cactus.org> wizard@wixer.cactus.org (John P Onorato) writes:
>I have just started using the Tarot.  I am still in the process of
>learning about the Celtic Tarot, which is the one that I have
>selected for my use.

I haven't heard of the Celtic Tarot before.  You aren't referring,
perhaps, to the Celtic Cross spread for dealing the cards, are you?

>(I gather that most decks, although there are many of them, differ
>little except in the art on the cards.)  

Sort of.  Many decks have common threads of meaning through them.  The
22 Trumps are usually there, with four 14-card suits.  There are
differences among them, however.  Most of these differences come about
from differences in the philosophy/theology the deck is based on.

But, yes, with most decks, there are enough parallels to make this
statement.  When choosing a deck, pick a deck where the images show
things that you can relate to, not what everyone else uses.  This way,
the images will be easier to interpret once you get familiar with the
deck. 

>As a new user, I was wondering if there were any pointers that could be given
>me; if there were any stories out there as to how other people got started,
>and so on.

Well...  There are a few things.

1) The Celtic Cross spread is the most common one.  It is explained in
   many books, and a description usually comes with most decks.  While
it is useful for getting familiar with the Tarot, I find that it is a
but too specific.  I prefer to use simpler spreads (such as those in
the back of the Merlin Tarot book) and rely on my intuition.  I've
been getting very good results this way.

2) Keep the book at hand at all times until you are completely
   familiar with every card in the deck.  It always helps to have a
referene to look back to when you get something you don't quite
understand.  Unless you read cards for a living, most people you read
won't be bothered by this.

3) Everything is subjective.  Let your mind wander a bit and don't be
   afraid to say something that doesn't seem to make sense.

4) Since it is all subjective, these "rules" may not apply to you.
   For that matter, they may not apply to anyone but me!  As alway,
your mileage will vary.

>(Dang, I hope this appends my .sig...)
>-- 
>John P Onorato             |   "Softness without strength is weakness.
>wizard@wixer.cactus.org    |    Strength without softness is meanness."
>cactus.org!wixer!wizard    |             -- Mahatma Ghandi

Was this your .sig?  Or someone elses?  :-)


-- 
   |)  David Charlap           "I don't even represent myself
  /|_  dic5340@hertz.njit.edu   sometimes so NJIT is right out!.
 ((|,)
  ~|~  Hi! I am a .signature virus, copy me into your .signature file.
From: ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Newsgroups: alt.divination
Subject: Re: Ouija, protection
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 17:17:49 EST
Organization: Ailanthus Project

gelabert@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Teodoro E Gelabert) writes:

> 
> I have seen many warnings against using a Ouija board without some
> protection in place.  Could anyone tell me some specifics about placing
> this protection in place?  Please feel free to e-mail me so as not to
> fill the board with information others may not need. 
> Thanks in advance,
> Omp  (Teddy)
> 
this post dates from 8 jul, so followups probably are logn gone (but 
then, if that is so, why is the original still here?), but i'm going to 
follow this up anyway.

piffle.  people are very superstitious about ouija boards, pure & simple. 
ouija follows the same principle as automatic writing, except that it is 
a bit easier...

if the ouija board makes you nervous, use the mroe traditional 
equivalent: a wineglass overturned, with slips of paper placed around it 
in a circle containing the letters of the alphabet...

                                         -ailsa

                ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com
 
"If it has tires or testicles, you're going to have trouble with it."
                            _Ohio state Senator Linda Furney
From: mitchell@seas.smu.edu (Utopium Enterprizes)
Subject: Re: Nothing new?  yipe!
Organization: Utopium Enterprizes
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 17:55:56 GMT

Thus wrote dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap):
>In article <1992Jul26.102001.10@and.csc.liv.ac.uk> killip@csc.liv.ac.uk (Mr. L.T. Killip) writes:
>
>>There are no new ideas under the sun or any other heavenly body...
>
>You'll excuse me if I don't agree here out of self-preservation.  I
>can see no reason a person who honestly believes this would want to
>remain alive.

Well, David, I have to agree with L.T. here... I have yet to find an idea
so radically new that no one had ever thought of it before. I still have
the sense of wonder and joy at thinking of a "new" idea, but no matter how
radical the idea seemed at the time I have found that someone else had the
idea before me, or has the same idea after I do; and in both cases, it's
completely isolated discoveries.

There *are*, however, new ways to phrase the ideas, and new variations and
permutations of the ideas... which constantly keeps us amused.

I find that part of the joy of becoming more and more "enlightened" -- if
that's the right word for it -- is in finding that there are those who have
been there before you.

Eschew Nosallak...

-- 
Utopium Enterprizes - mitchell@seas.smu.edu
"Do not mistake my sympathy for understanding; do not accept my understanding
 as sympathy." -- St. Thomas Laine the Abbreviated
From: dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap)
Newsgroups: alt.divination
Subject: Nothing new?  yipe!
Date: 29 Jul 92 14:48:14 GMT
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <1992Jul26.102001.10@and.csc.liv.ac.uk> killip@csc.liv.ac.uk (Mr. L.T. Killip) writes:

>There are no new ideas under the sun or any other heavenly body...

You'll excuse me if I don't agree here out of self-preservation.  I
can see no reason a person who honestly believes this would want to
remain alive.
-- 
   |)  David Charlap           "I don't even represent myself
  /|_  dic5340@hertz.njit.edu   sometimes so NJIT is right out!.
 ((|,)
  ~|~  Hi! I am a .signature virus, copy me into your .signature file.
Newsgroups: alt.divination
From: jamie@cs.sfu.ca (Jamie Andrews)
Subject: Re: "talking twigs/sticks"
Organization: CSS, Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 00:13:37 GMT

In article <14mt5kINNied@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> ithinki@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (face iz white! eyes iz tired!) writes:
>im currently working on a set of so-called "talking twigs", a
> druidic method of divination i cant really seem to find any
> information about so far outside of what ive already got...

     Now this looks fascinating!

[some deleted...]
>	rowan (mountain ash, first, then switched to dogwood when
>	       i found a reference equating mountain ash with
>	       dogwood)

     Rowan and mountain ash are the same things (loads of small
flowers followed by red berries, twice a year); dogwood is the
tree that produces the five-petaled flowers.

     It's a fascinating idea.  Would you consider trying it
with the trees and plants that are native to your area, and
researching the significance of the trees and plants to the
native peoples of your area?

     This makes me think of the "Language of Flowers" that was
very popular in the 19th century.  I wonder if anyone has made a
divination system based on that -- with, say, pressed flowers as
the tokens.  Most of the meanings of the flowers seem to have to
do with minute gradations of affection, though.

--Jamie.                       ,
  jamie@cs.sfu.ca           (-:=
"Cool... clear... Usenet"      `   (not)
Newsgroups: alt.divination
From: wizard@wixer.cactus.org (John P Onorato)
Subject: new Tarot person
Organization: Real/Time Communications
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 21:08:36 GMT



Hello, gentlebeings:

I have just started using the Tarot.  I am still in the process of learning
about the Celtic Tarot, which is the one that I have selected for my use. (I
gather that most decks, although there are many of them, differ little except
in the art on the cards.)  

As a new user, I was wondering if there were any pointers that could be given
me; if there were any stories out there as to how other people got started,
and so on.

I do look forward to hearing from anyone at all.

(Dang, I hope this appends my .sig...)


wizard

-- 
John P Onorato             |   "Softness without strength is weakness.
wizard@wixer.cactus.org    |    Strength without softness is meanness."
cactus.org!wixer!wizard    |             -- Mahatma Ghandi
From: agray@axion.bt.co.uk (Andy Gray)
Newsgroups: alt.divination
Subject: Re: new Tarot person
Date: 31 Jul 92 11:38:10 GMT
Organization: BT Laboratories

In article <1992Jul29.210836.18916@wixer.cactus.org>, wizard@wixer.cactus.org (John P Onorato) writes:
|> 
|> 
|> Hello, gentlebeings:
|> 
|> I have just started using the Tarot.  I am still in the process of learning
|> about the Celtic Tarot, which is the one that I have selected for my use. (I
|> gather that most decks, although there are many of them, differ little except
|> in the art on the cards.)  
|> 
|> As a new user, I was wondering if there were any pointers that could be given
|> me; if there were any stories out there as to how other people got started,
|> and so on.

I think that the most important thing is that you literally tune into your cards,
whichever set that happens to be. (I personally use the Mythic card set with the
Aquarian as a backup set. The reason for this was that I was learning the stories
that were attached to the cards rather than looking at the symbolism that the
cards were supposed to represent.)

Once you have built up a relationship with your cards, then you should be able to
draw on your intuition and psychic abilities through the cards. It's uncanny how
they will reflect situations for you, it's infuriating when you can see what they
are suggesting, but you can't draw a fully objective interpretation.

Are there any experienced users out there who have, or can point to, texts on
interpretation and spreads that can be accessed electronically? I'm sure that we
all have our own personal views. Anyone care to share, and/or discuss?

   ^__^				 ___ 	 ___ 	 ___ 	 ___ 	 ___
  (-  0)	Andy		<*,*>	<*,*>	<*,*>	<*,*>	<*,*>
  | \/ |			[`-']	[`-']	[`-']	[`-']	[`-']
  \    /    NeXTMail Welcome	-"-"-	-"-"-	-"-"-	-"-"-	-"-"-
====^^======================================================================
    \/		Software Technology Division, SSTF/306, British Telecom
                Research Labs., Martlesham Heath, Ipswich IP5 7RE, U.K.
Andy Gray       Tel: +44 473 646647    e-mail: agray@axion.bt.co.uk
		"It does not do to leave a dragon out of your calculation,
		if you live near him." J.R.R.Tolkein
============================================================================
Xref: sparky alt.revisionism:608 soc.history:6635
From: friedenb@egr.msu.edu ( Gedaliah Friedenberg )
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.history
Subject: Re: LEST WE FORGET: 1.5 Million Gassed: Maidanek
Keywords: Maidanek
Date: 24 Jul 92 01:52:53 GMT
Reply-To: friedenb@egr.msu.edu ( Gedaliah Friedenberg )
Organization: Michigan State University
Originator: friedenb@kira.egr.msu.edu

In article <1992Jul23.174005.24865@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) writes:


>The bottom line is that we'll probably never really know, but that the final
>totals were most certainly in the multiple millions...

I saw a television program (although the name of the program slips my
mind) which suggests that the fall of the USSR has made available many
holocaust-related documents.  These documents supposedly suggest that
certain concentration camp death totals are higher than before
thought, bringing the overall estimate up to a higher number.

Sorry I am being so vague, it was at least a few months ago.

Gedaliah Friedenberg
-=-Department of Mechanical Engineering
-=-Department of Metallurgy, Mechanics and Materials Science
-=-Michigan State University
Xref: sparky alt.revisionism:630 soc.history:6795
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.history
Subject: Holocaust Almanac: "They all died at Auschwitz..."
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 12:01:02 GMT
Reply-To: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac, Vancouver Island, CANADA
Keywords: Auschwitz,Barbie,Drancy,Gur,France

After Hitler's rise to power, many German Jews left Germany for the safety
of France, and obtained citizenship there. After the fall of France, the
Nazis cancelled the French citizenship; Vichy complied with the order. From
that point, the Jews of France were at the mercy of the Nazis, and the
result was predictable:

"Detention camps for French Jews were quickly set up, the largest in
Drancy, near Paris. From there 98,000 people were deported to Auschwitz, of
whom only 3,000 lived to be liberated at the end of the war. These were
mainly saved because of insufficient transportation facilities. The sports
stadium, Velodrome d'Hiver, was pressed into service for a week to hold
9,000 Jews, including 4,000 children, before they were sent on to the gas
chambers of Auschwitz. Thirty adults, but no childreen, survived. Another
detention camp bore the odd name of Gur ... The cruelest actions were the
raiding of children's homes. The Gestapo commander at Lyon took pride in
cabling his superiors in Germany in April 1944: `Early this morning the
children's home at Aisier-Anne was emptied. A total number of 41 children,
aged 3-13 was siezed.' They all died at Auschwitz.<18> All told, about
80,000 French Jews perished there.*"

* Klaus Barbie, known as the "Butcher of Lyon", who escaped to Bolivia
after the war, was extradited to France in March 1983 to stand trial there.

Extracted from--------------------------------------------------- 
"THE REDEMPTION OF THE UNWANTED", Abram L.  Sachar (New York: St.
Martin's/Marek, 1983.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

For an extensive bibliography dealing with the Holocaust, and containing over 
1100 citations, contact kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca - it will be sent to you
by return email. Additions to this bibliography are actively solicited.
-- 
"The heavy smoke from the  crematory building  is said to be  visible  over
Hadamar every day... At full capacity [they] smoked day and night. Locks of
hair went up through the chimneys and landed in the street."     [From Nazi
documents critical of "mistakes" made at medical killing centres]