From: johnson@elec.uq.oz.au (Craig Johnson)
Subject: Re: Why Did Jesus Die?
Organization: Prentice Centre, University of Queensland
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 05:47:38 GMT

spk@aber.ac.uk (Stephen Peter Kingston) writes:

>Jesse Carnes writes:
>> 
>> WHY die for the unatonable?
>> Why substitute for the unsavable?
>> Does God do the superfluous??

>" For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to 
>nothing the understanding of the prudent."

>"But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto
>the Greeks foolishness;"

>Now you will at once wish to respond to me that the context of these verses is
>not relevent to the limted atonement. Fair enough, but  what I am saying is 
>this: 

>If we started building our doctrine on logic alone then we will become unstuck. 
>Our doctrine will be superficial and no better then the philosophies of the 
>Greeks (I might mention Thomism at this point, but then again I have no real
>desire to enter into that debate).

	VERY good point!

>Let us be true to our beliefs and start with scripture. Does scripture teach 
>that Christ died only for the elect? that he substituted only for the saveable?

>If the bible teaches that Christ died even for those who would  reject him then
>the answers to your questions are yes, yes and "why do you call the wisdom of 
>God  superfluous".

>Stephen
>-- 
>Gweleis i rac neb nym gweles pop annwyl. ef diwyl yneges. Gweleis i pasc.
>(I saw the one above all men,  he saw me;  he, the beloved of his people,
>who fulfills his mission. I saw Easter.) "Yspeil Taliesin" ---Taliesin---
>spk@uk.ac.aber --- spk%uk.ac.aber@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk --- Stephen Kingston

Stephen (and others out there!),

	I agree wholeheartedly that our doctrines ought be based on
scripture and not on logic, at the bottom line.  And this is why I 
would ask you (or anyone else) - and it would be of tremendous benefit
to me - where is the scriptural basis for saying that Christ died
substitutionally for all men (that is to say, each and every man)?
I see that the bible tells us that the gospel and so Christ's death,
is offered to each and every man, but I do not see that Christ made
propitiation for each and every man.  Scripture continually tells us
that Christ died substitutionally to redeem believers (John 10 -> Jesus'
sheep; Titus 2(?) -> to redeem "us"; 1 Peter 1 -> "you" were redeemed;
Ephesians 1(somewhere after v6) -> again Jesus redeeming and dying for
believers; 1 Corinthians 6 -> "you" were bought; John 15(?) -> Jesus
gives His life for His friends; 1 John 5(?) -> Jesus made propitiation
for "our" sins; to name a few, sorry about being unspecifec, no bible 
with me...), but I do not know of any definite references of Christ
dying substitutionally (propitiatorily (a word?), redeemingly - and
surely we cannot be too quick to separate the death from the 
redemption and justification?) for unbelievers.  Granted there are
passages in Hebrews (chapter 10) and 2 Peter (chapter 2?) which
pose interesting questions because of terminology used (i.e. 
"sanctified" and "bought", respectively), yet at the most we are
talking here of apostates and not your general unbeliever (so to
speak).  I am aware that there are a few passages that speak along the
lines of suggesting Christ died substitutionally for "all", yet I do
not believe that we have in them clear, definite and easily discernable
proof for a universal substitutionary death, especially in light of
the scant occurances of them (especially those that specifically deal
with Christ's death being applied in a propitiatory manner, as opposed
to the offer of it (which I believe is to be distinguished), or of
God's general "desire" to offer salvation and see repentence (again to
be distinguished)) as compared to those passages applying Christ's
death to believers.  For example, probably one of the most applicable
passages would be that in 1 Timothy 2:1ff, yet here I am about 99 per
cent sure that the "all" is "all kinds and classes" and not "each and
every", for sake of consistency and context. (Would Paul tell Timothy
to exhort believers (probably in the public assembly) to pray for
each and every person when he says to "pray for all men"?  See also
how he speaks of kings and those in authority (a class of men), and
how Paul notes that he is a teacher to the Gentiles (separate from
the Jews).  And ask why does he change Jesus words "a ransom for many"
to "a ransom for all"? ...But perhaps you've heard all these before...)
And of course, there is also the old logic (yet I believe very
important and applicable) of a substitutionary death = propitiatory =
justified = redeemed = saved, yet all are not saved... (cf Romans
3:25,26ish, God is just and justifier, though forbearing, because
Christ's death is propitiatory.)

	Well, sorry to belabour the point (I just noticed that that
was one very long paragraph, and probably not the easiest to read),
but I guess what I'd like to leave with, if nothing else, is that
we need to be very careful of knowing biblically (i.e. taught by
the Spirit through scripture, and not knowing intellectually
because of what we have heard someone else teach, or what we have
read, or what we desire to believe) what we would proclaim and be
dogmatic about.  As Stephen wrote in his post of the dangers of 
putting logic before scripture, on the Reformed side at least (if
not on the other fronts), there can sometimes be too quick a 
readiness to be dogmatic where our "truth" (and it my indeed be
truth) is at the moment founded only on what others have said or
wrote, or on our desire to remove paradoxes and/or make everything
fit very nicely to the grid through which we interpret scripture
instead of altering and fitting the grid to scripture.  And so I would
be very pleased to hear back from any who would have definite (or even
not so definite) scriptural support for the teaching that Christ died
a universal substitutionary death, i.e. for believers and unbelievers,
elect or not (and please give reasoning behind relevence of scriptures,
even countering known arguements if you want), so that I at least may
with confidence and conviction make more definite statements on more
things (as I pray would be the desire of us all).

	Thanks all for bearing with me, and if anyone wants to take
up personal mailing and discussion I would be more than happy to
comply!

				In Christ Jesus,
				Craig Johnson
				johnson@s1.elec.uq.oz.au