HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tucker@shiva.edsg.hac.com (George Tucker)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Cows at 12,000 Feet.
Date: 15 Sep 92 20:16:47 GMT
Reply-To: tucker@shiva.UUCP (George Tucker)
Organization: Hughes Aircraft Co., El Segundo, CA

In article <1992Sep15.174707.648@news.eng.convex.com> jjensen@convex.com (James Jensen) writes:
 
>I recommend reading "The Milagro Beanfield War".  Besides being an
 
>I never saw the movie, but I can guarantee that it was missing 90%
>of the book.  Its a hefty one.

I saw [some of] the movie on TV.  If your posting is accurate, it
missed about 98%, or maybe they just bought the title.
Got their money's worth.

	 George Tucker        tucker@tcville.hac.com
GM Executive (paraphrased): Expanding Saturn production is not appropriate.
	As those buyers mature, they will move up to traditional GM models.
Too many Quayludes.
From: fletcher@remus.rutgers.edu (Sean A Fletcher)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Moving to California
Date: 9 Sep 92 23:24:27 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.


A friend and I are planning a move to California on or about the 18th
of September.  We heard that often people need cars driven across the
country and wondered if we wouldn't be able to find someone interested
in doing just that through internet.

We would want to leave on or about the 18th of September from any area
around New Brunswick, New Jersey (or northern New Jersey, as we might
just as well leave from there, too).  If your interests coincide with
ours in any way shape or form, please contact me at your earliest con-
venience:

		fletcher@remus.ruters.edu
		fletcher@zodiac.rutgers.edu
		fletcher@gandalf.rugers.edu

Thanks.
Sean
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Re: water purification methods
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 92 23:09:40 GMT

The CDC memo from the Parasidic Disease Branch appended to panel 9
is more recent that the AJPH article.

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Second Favorite email message: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days
A Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: grimmund@edsi.plexus.COM (Grimmund Blackwing)
Subject: Re: Backpack recommendations and comments (e.g., Mountainsmith, Lowe)
Organization: Enterprise Data Systems Incorporated, Appleton WI
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 06:08:18 GMT

pnsf01dw@UMASSD.EDU writes:

>In article <Bu8n5E.ABC@world.std.com>, ari@world.std.com (Ari I Halberstadt) writes:
>>Need help deciding which back pack to get for under a week hikes.
>>Packs I'm considering:
>>
>>Model                       Vol (cu in)  Weight      Price
>>------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Mountainsmith Frost Fire II 5016         4lbs 14oz   $220
>>Lowe Contour IV             5400         5lbs 11oz   $225-$240
>>Mountainsmith Elite 4000    4894         5lbs 12oz   $305
>>Mountainsmith Elite 5000    5800         6lbs  1oz   $330
>>(Source: EMS pamphlet and prices from REI, L. L. Bean, and local stores.)
>>
>>Any strong feelings about any of these packs? Other packs to consider?
>>Good/bad experiences with these packs?
>>
>>Additional long article (about 7K) containing more detailed requirements
>>and comparisons of the above mentioned packs available on request (I didn't
>>want to clog the net).
>>-- 
>>Ari Halberstadt  ari@world.std.com  #include <disclaimer.h>  #include <quote.h>

I can not speak for the Mountainsmiths, but I can attest to the 
quality of the Lowe pack.  They are most comfortable, and 
functional.  Some other packs you may want to look into include 
the Kelty STF series, and Northface Snowlepord.

I own a Kelty STF 5000 which is about 5400 cu in.  It is very 
comfortable and has held up very well over the past year.  I've 
used it on the 720 km Bruce Penisula Trail, which is very rugged, 
cliffy, and uneven.  It worked beautifully the whole way.  It ways 
3lbs 14oz.  Runs for around $280, very good buy. 

As for the NorthFace, I have not had personal experience with it, 
thuogh I have heard from other's that it's quality can not be 
surpassed.  You'll pay an arm and a leg, but it is a great summer 
pack, and even more functional in the winter.

Have fun hiking.


doctor@edsi.plexus.com

TERRA president * GreenPeace * American Hiking Society.
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: dencisco@eos.arc.nasa.gov (David Paul Encisco)
Subject: Re: Moving to California
Organization: NASA Ames Research Center
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 16:59:38 GMT

fletcher@remus.rutgers.edu (Sean A Fletcher) writes:

>A friend and I are planning a move to California on or about the 18th
>of September.

Why California? 1 out of 10 people are unemployed (more are under-employed),
massive layoffs, 2 billion dollars cut in education, housing prices remain
shocking, empty commercial property may be the demise of one of the major
banks (we'll see after the elections), and the traffic to get to our
mountains is horrendous (once you're there you feel like you're in a foreign
country). This is where you want to be?

Why not try Oregon or Washington. Tell them a Californian sent you (whoa
am I going to get hell):-)

Good luck and bring us money, enterprise, and ideas.
From: gadient@rainbow.ecn.purdue.edu (JL Gadient)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Tents
Date: 10 Sep 92 19:07:00 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network

In article <1992Sep10.034720.10023@news.media.mit.edu> geek@media.mit.edu (Chris Schmandt) writes:
>gadient@rainbow.ecn.purdue.edu (JL Gadient) writes:
> 
>>GREETINGS! The SO and I are in the market for a new tent. I own a
>>very old Eureka! Timberline-2. It is a great tent but too small for
>
>I guess I should complain to Timberline.  Anyone know where they 
>are located?
>
>chris

Thanks to all those who replied! I went ahead and ordered the Timberline
4 reg. green with gear loft from Campmor for $169.99. I also ordered
the vestibule for $38. I did find a couple places in Indy that would
sell me the Special Edition for around $200 but it would have to be
special ordered, etc. and I did not want to deal with that kind of
uncertainty. I also like the way the green blends into the woods -
the Special Edition is silver&grey (i am told).

I called Eureka! (Johnson Camping - 800/848-3673) and asked about the
zippers which a number of people have complained about. They explained
that the zippers do fail for a number of reasons. Dust and dirt, lots
of use, lubrication - aparently lubrication will cause dust/dirt to
adhere to the zipper - those were the main causes. The good news is
that Eureka/Johnson will send anyone replacement `sliders' for free.
I don't have any more info on that but if anyone has a failed zipper
on their timberline, try calling the number above.

To sum it up, IMHO, most people were very happy with their Timberlines.
I am also happy with the performance of my Timberline-2. I was tempted
by the Alpine Meadows but decided against it. I have gotten so many
opinions and info on these tents it is incredible - most from this
group, so thanks again. If anyone has any questions, feel free to
e-mail me.        -john

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
gadient@rainbow.ecn.purdue.edu
    or   ..pur-ee!gadient
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: gadient@rainbow.ecn.purdue.edu (JL Gadient)
Subject: Tents
Keywords: Eureka!
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 16:02:59 GMT

GREETINGS! The SO and I are in the market for a new tent. I own a
very old Eureka! Timberline-2. It is a great tent but too small for
the three of us (Kennebec our retriever[mix]). So, I figure we should
get a Timberline-4 with 2 doors.

However, the massive selection causes me to wonder if there isn't
a better choice out there. We really don't want to spend more than
$200. I am pretty much sold on Eureka tents because of how well
mine has held up. They are also guaranteed but I am unsure how the
guarantee works. Can I trade my old beat up one for a new one? :-)
What about the Alpine Meadows or the Aurora? 

Can anyone shed some light on this tent quandry of ours? E-mail
would be just fine. I will post a summary. Thank you all in
advance. Happy camping!           -john

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
gadient@rainbow.ecn.purdue.edu      |          ..pur-ee!gadient

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: garth@leland.Stanford.EDU (Douglas Garth Jensen)
Subject: raingear reccomendations?
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 92 21:43:06 GMT


My old Gortex jacket has long since turned into Leaktex.  I now want to buy
a lightweight, breathable but waterproof shell for use in backbacking,
climbing, bicycling, and back country skiing.  Has anybody had particularly
good luck with a jacket?  Which jackets really are waterproof?  Which aren't?
Will the jacket last more than two years before the Gortex or other 
waterproof fabric starts leaking?  I'm pretty poor so I'm looking for a
bargain price. 

Please e-mail responses and I will later post a summary if it seem appropriate.

-Garth    (garth@leland.stanford.edu)
From: kehoe@netcom.com (Thomas David Kehoe)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Water treatment article from Am J Pub Health (1989)
Date: 6 Sep 92 18:59:29 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

This season I started using chlorine instead of iodine.  The
main reason is that I was diagnosed as hypothyroid and my
doctor said that the iodine can cause thyroid problems.
But I also like that hydrogen peroxide takes out the chlorine,
so I drink clean, clear water.  I never liked the taste of
the iodine.  Also, chlorine/hydrogen peroxide is how 99%
of municipal water is treated, so it must be a good idea.
My only complaint about the brand I bought was that the
measuring scoop is a little imprecise, but even if you put
in too much chlorine or too little hydrogen peroxide, you
can smell the chlorine and then put in more hydrogen peroxide.

I also filter with a Timberline filter -- cheap (<$30) and light.
Seems fine to me.
-- 
"Why my thoughts are my own, when they are in, but when they are out
they are another's." - Susannah Martin, hanged for witchcraft, 1692.
Thomas David Kehoe          kehoe@netcom.com         (408) 354-5926
From: xtkmg@trentu.ca (Kate Gregory)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Tents
Date: 13 Sep 92 20:52:29 GMT
Organization: Trent University, Ontario

In article <1992Sep10.034720.10023@news.media.mit.edu> geek@media.mit.edu (Chris Schmandt) writes:

[about Eureka tents]

>each tent has
>experienced failure of the bottom horizontal zipper.  We replaced the
>first one ourselves, and chalked it up to being a fluke.  The 4
>person tent has been slept in less than 50 nights, only once on a
>beach, and generally well cared for, so I am disappointed at the
>zipper failure that seems to be a pattern.  I suspect it will cost
>more than the tent is worth to have it replaced.
>

We've had a Eureka Alpine Meadows for 11 years now. 3 years
ago the lower zipper appeared broken, and of course I forgot to
get it fixed until right before we had to leave. I looked up
"Eureka" in the Burlington phone book (a label in the tent
said that's their Ontario location) but no luck. I then
grovelled to Hiker's Haven, my favourite canoe-ish store in
those pre-MEC days, who gave me their secret name: Johnson Diversified.
It took almost no grovelling to arrange to bring the tent to them
and have them fix it ON THE SPOT. While I waited. Oh, fifteen minutes
or so. She apologized for the delay but they had checked all the
other zippers and seams while they were at it. No charge, and
enjoy your trip.

Apparently the sliders erode as sand gets in them. It's trivial
to replace the slider and they don't charge. This year our upper
zipper was gone, so our camping partner took their tent and ours
in together: the same nice woman (Sheila MacNaram) replaced
both sliders in both tents, to save all this driving to Burlington
we keep doing.

Moral: probably only your slider is gone. Our partner's lasted
longer because they are pickier about keeping sand and dirt
out of their tent. Anyway you can probably get it fixed free.
You could even do it completely yourself, buying the slider
at a fabric store.

Kate
From: cheu@venus.its.uci.edu (Kelvin Cheu)
Subject: Re: Uses of high explosives in the backcountry
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Reply-To: cheu@venus.its.uci.edu (Kelvin Cheu)
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Distribution: usa
Date: 14 Sep 92 04:18:33 GMT

In article <1992Sep13.190426.14521@ucsu.Colorado.EDU>, smithrs@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (SMITH  RANDALL SCOTT) writes:
|> 
|> You know, with all of the noise everyone has been making about cows and forest-
|> fires and stoves and fishing, I'm surprised and highly amused that no one has
|> mentioned the obvious answer, the universal tool:  High explosives
|> 
|> Whenever I am in the backcountry, I always make sure that I have at least 6 
|> sticks of high explosives and a few blasting caps.  Not only are they light 
|> and easy to carry, they have a multitude of uses:
|> 
|> 1)  Campsite preparations:  No longer will you have to hike that extra mile
|> away from your favorite fishing spot to reach a designated campsite.  With
|> just two well-placed charges you can instantly clear enough area for your tent,
|> generator and hammock.
|> 
|> 2)  Pesky rangers and other critters:  Once you've cleared your site, the noise
|> will undoubtedly have scared off any food-seeking vermin within 2-3 miles.  
|> And even if it didn't, a few well-placed booby traps should keep your food 
|> store safe and sound, even if you don't tie it in a tree and you're in bear
|> country.  Besides, it's a great ranger deterent for those USFS brownshirts 
|> who come snooping around, asking pesky questions about why you aren't in
|> a designated campsite, don't have a permit to camp/fish/carry automatic weapons
|> etc, anyway.
|> 
|> 3)  Wastepits, laterines:  Dynamite is dynamite for digging holes, and as 
|> everyone knows, holes are very useful in the backcountry.  You can use them
|> for burrying unsightly celophane, for laterines, for capturing rangers for
|> later sadistic activities, and, of course, if you find some valuble mineral
|> deposites, you can always strip-mine them out.
|> 
|> 4)  Food gathering:  If you are into the wholesale slaughter of native fish
|> species, like I am, you know how useful high explosives are to dam streams,
|> thereby creating natural (heh) trout ponds.  And if the little buggers aren't
|> biting in their newly created habitat, just heave a stick or two into the center
|> of the lake.  Then you can just scoop them up off the surface.  Also, cows are
|> very easy to hunt using high explosive.  Just place a stick or two right by one.
|> Viola:  instant steaks.  As an added bonus, the cows that the explosion doesn't
|> kill usually stampede off a cliff or something:  great entertainment.
|> 
|> So, as you cna see, high explosives have a plethora of backcountry uses.  Makes
|> you wonder why no one mentioned this subject before... :-)
|> 
|> Randy Smith
|> the mad Chemist
|> smithrs@ucsu.colorado.edu

Looks like you are really 'mad'. Spent too much time with the chemicals
in your lab ?

Kelvin

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: stgprao@st.unocal.COM (Richard Ottolini)
Subject: Re: Cows at 12,000 Feet. 
Organization: Unocal Corporation
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 17:56:24 GMT

The barren hills of the San Francisco Bay Area is an example of extensive
vegetative destruction by cows.  The Bay Area doesn't have much of a wild flower
season like the cowless areas of southern California.  Also most tree seedlings
are eaten by the cows, so there is not much reforestation occuring.
For an idea of what the Bay should look like, visit the Jasper Ridge ecological
perserve at Stanford in the Spring.
From: trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Desolation Wilderness Questions
Date: 11 Sep 92 17:31:47 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department

In article <1992Sep11.161301.13123@ichips.intel.com> jreece@sousa.intel.com writes:
>
>Nope, individual park and forest funding is determined by a
>Congressional "pork barrel" process even more blatant and contemptible
>than the one for military bases.  It has *nothing* to do with 
>use levels.

In fact the causal relationship is probably the reverse.  More funding
causes more use.  Wilderness can be developed and marketed, just like
any commodity.

-- 

-Wayne Trzyna
 trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU
From: gadient@rainbow.ecn.purdue.edu (JL Gadient)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: NO ALCOHOL IN N.P. (was Re: No dogs in Natl Parks)
Date: 15 Sep 92 22:13:13 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network

In article <1992Sep14.222343.9875@hpcvca.cv.hp.com> scott@hpcvccl.cv.hp.com (Scott Linn) writes:
>Just to add some more information about horse packers and dogs...
>
>I spent the last nine days in the Marble Mountain Wilderness Area in 
>northern CA.
>
>1)  The sign at the trailhead states that horse packers are supposed to tether
>    horses at least 200' away from water sources.  The typical distance that
>    we observed (three groups) was 20' or less.  This was from a spring,
>    which was the only source of water for about 2 miles.
>
stuff deleted
>
>When will even a simple majority of horse packers and dog owners get a clue
>on how to behave/manage their animals in the backcountry?
>
>--
>
>Scott Linn
>scott@hpcvccl.cv.hp.com

I should resist this thread but I am obviously not listening to my
better judgement.

When will people learn that abuses are simply that - ABUSES? Does
it matter if it is a dog, cow, horse, or drunken low-life human?
How about radios, tv's, babies, loud cook kits? Where are you gonna 
draw the line?

I am very surprised at the people that bitch about dogs. I have camped 
all my life and NEVER had a bad experience with a dog. I think some of
you out there just hate dogs. I remember a poster saying that he
would kill a dog if he could -JEESH! I am sad for that person - they
probably don't have much fun.

The only hassles I have ever had camping came from people. People
who had had too much to drink.

This thread should be: NO ALCOHOL IN NATIONAL PARKS
(I just changed it.)

HAVE FUN. LIVE AND LET LIVE.

BTW, Thanks for the concept of a low-impact soul. Now that is the
way to be.

-gadient@rainbow.ecn.purdue.edu
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: jreece@sousa.intel.com (John Reece)
Subject: Re: Hiking in Yosemite in early October
Reply-To: jreece@sousa.intel.com
Organization: Intel - Information Technologies
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 17:03:30 GMT

In early-mid October the Park prohibits overnight parking on Tioga
Road, implying they won't make any further efforts to keep the road
open if it snows, assuming they would make one before then.  Therefore the 
Valley is a more prudent trailhead than Tuolomne Meadows.

Scattered September/October snowfalls of 6" - 1' are not uncommon.

If it does snow there likely won't be enough accumulation of hardpack or
ice for crampons/ice axe to make a difference.  Gaiters and a hiking
stick or ski poles would be very useful, though.

Just watch the weather and don't get caught on the opposite side
of a high pass from the trailhead.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Reece			"Oop. Ack. Pfffthpt"	
Not an Intel spokesman 			- Bill the Cat 
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: AS.MSW@forsythe.stanford.edu (Marc Whitney)
Subject: 10th Mtn Div Trail Info
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 05:38:24 GMT

Does anyone know where to get information about the "10th Mountain
Division Trail" sysytem and huts.  I recieved a brochure a couple of
years ago but lost it.
From: scott@hpcvccl.cv.hp.com (Scott Linn)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Cows at 12,000 Feet.
Date: 14 Sep 92 22:01:11 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA

bwood@diva.Berkeley.EDU (Blake Philip Wood) writes:
: 
: I expressed my surprise to a backcountry ranger that cattle grazing
: was allowed in a wilderness area.  She gave me the impression
: that this was a somewhat unique situation.  I suspect the grazing rights
: were grandfathered in when the Pecos Wilderness Area was established.

They were grandfathered into most wilderness areas, actually.

I just got back from 9 days in the Marble Mountains in far northern CA, and
we ran into quite a few cows.  They *all* had bells, so you heard them along
the trail, at night, etc.  What a racket.

I talked with an NFS wildlife biologist on Friday night, and he said that
the cows had tremendous impact on the plant species in the wilderness area.
It turns out that since the cows are brought in during certain parts of the
year, their feces bring in non-native plants to the area (we are talking about
an alpine area versus a more lowland area).  As a result, there are large
parts of the Marbles where the native plants have been wiped out by the
extensive grazing and replaced by the non-native varieties.

Stop cow grazing in wilderness areas!

--

Scott Linn
scott@hpcvccl.cv.hp.com
From: trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Cows at 12,000 Feet.
Date: 16 Sep 92 00:20:34 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department

In article <1992Sep15.205826.13367@nas.nasa.gov> eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya) writes:

>We need to appeal to science
>and reason and not people's Bambi notions.

Well, I for one ain't betting on science and reason either.
The human race is like that chum salmon I saw the other day,
flopping on the bank, writhing blind, a void socket where his
eyeball was a moment before, while a well-fed, content sea-gull
flew off.  The weak have a role in nature's balance.  As intelligence
seems to be humankind's strength, ignorance is ultimately its weakness.

Enough of my morose comments.  Let's get on with our competitive
exploitation and exponential breeding...

Nature has no mercy.

-- 

-Wayne Trzyna
 trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU
From: johnf@Auspex.COM (John Fereira)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Hiking in Yosemite in early October
Date: 8 Sep 92 20:33:07 GMT
Organization: Auspex Systems, Inc.

In article <18ic33INNdmp@agate.berkeley.edu> bwood@diva.Berkeley.EDU (Blake Philip Wood) writes:
|In article <1685BBBBE.MARGARET@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu> MARGARET@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu (Margaret Krebs) writes:
|>My husband and I are planning a week-long trip in Yosemite...
|>I'm concerned about how cold is it likely to be.  
|>Are we likely to get altitude sickness?
|
|You have picked the right time to see Yosemite.  It is beautiful in
|the fall, and there are few people.  It will probably get down a bit
|below freezing at night.  It is possible, but very unlikely, to get
|snow.  

As I told Margaret I was in Yosemite last September and was snowed on twice
in two days.  It's not only possible but quite likely that they could get
snow.  Two years ago I camped at Tioga lake in September.  The guy I was with
got up early and went out fishing in my canoe.  He went onto the lake about
100' and turned around.  He woke me up and had me start my car to warm him
up.  He had early stages of hypothermia and it was a good two hours before
he felt "normal".  About four years ago, again in September, I woke to find
4" of snow on top of my car.  This was at 7000' just east of Yosemite.

I'm not trying to scare Margaret off.  I'm just think that one should be
more on the side of caution when planning a late fall trip into the High
Sierras. 

-- 
+==========================================================================+
| John Fereira     | Auspex Systems | "Auspex does not share my opinions.  |
| johnf@auspex.com | Santa Clara CA |  So Why am I still working here?"    |
+==========================================================================+