HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: smile1@dancer.cc.bellcore.com (gray,david l)
Subject: Re: Itemized accounting of child support
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 93 21:33:14 GMT

>|> Dave
>
>You are very fortunate, Dave, to have an ex who can act responsibly.  Agreed, not
>everyone should have to itemize things. 
>
>But not everyone acts as responsibly as you and your ex seem to do.  And that was
>why this whole debate started...because NCPs were frustated with their children
>wearing fleamarket clothes and eating weenies and beans while the CPs took
>vacations and bought expensive cars with the money the NCP was sending *for the
>children*.  And with such a large chunk of money being sent to the CP unaccounted
>for, the NCP can't afford to remedy the situation themselves.
>
Parts deleted.
>
>-- 
>=============================================================================
>Belinda Asbell        +  System Administrator, Harris Controls Division
>mba@ccd.harris.com    +      Any opinions presented are mine alone.
>  Good judgment comes from experience.  Experience comes from bad judgment.

I think we both agree.  Accounting is stupid.  The reall issue for the NCP is
that he/she pays so much up front that there is nothing left to make up the
slack when a bad parent doesn't do their job.  However, I really think that
letting lawyers argue over accounting is worthless.  They do not care about
children, they only understand "win cases".  I have learn to accept that I
must work as hard as I can in life to do what is right and change what I can.
But, I also know that the system is far to cold blooded to be concerned about
a child's winter coat.  They don't understand a home for NCP.  I watched them
let my brother's ex-wife sell their home and the childs things and leave
for the state of Washington.  The judge gave my brother custody, gave her
alimony until she could settle in, and refuse to require her to pay child
support.  And all this was after he had to pay for her college education.  The
judge said college didn't mean she had to work.  Anyways, as long as the system
didn't have to pay for her they didn't care about the child any more.

I think we really have to settle the fare child support issues so that both
parents have their own money to spend on the child.  Otherwise, everything
depends on the CP doing a good job and the NCP is helpless until they can make
more money.  As I said in another note, when we give the CP everything, we
put all our eggs in one basket and we deny the NCP the right to do what they
feel is right if it takes mone.

Smile,

Dave
Xref: sparky alt.dads-rights:3269 alt.child-support:4318
From: sbishop@desire.wright.edu
Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights,alt.child-support
Subject: Re: Custody
Date: 10 Jan 93 14:32:05 GMT
Organization: Wright State University

In article <s4R5wB3w165w@dogear.spk.wa.us>, bobk@dogear.spk.wa.us (Bob Kirkpatrick) writes:
> sbishop@desire.wright.edu writes:
> 
>> 
>> However, when they were little it would have been ridiculous to give him
>> primary custody, after all, he wasn't equiped to feed them.  
> 
> What?
> 
> I was the primary care giver in my family, and I had no problem feeding
> them at all. My wife pumped, and we also purchased breast milk through
> the hospital. All three of my kids are healthy, and I'm pretty sure
> love my wife and I equally.

Well, pumping milk is quite a hassle, when mine were young I didn't work
and was 'housewife' for three years.  This was a joint decision, as the
vast majority of our decisions have been.  
Watching this group and seeing the hostility that goes on, makes me devoutly
thankful that my husband and I still have a solid and loving relationship
after over twenty years of marriage!

> 
>> After the child reaches an age to be able to decide, then the court 
>> should take their wishes into consideration, also should assess whether
>> the potential custodian is really a fit parent and isn't just using
>> rank bribery to get the child to come with them.  
> 
> Sigh. Ditching concept of revoking parental standing by virtue of divorce
> would have the best effect, and not provide the child with the anguish of
> a decision like that. Why it is that people figure it has to be 'one or
> the other' mystifies me. Arguing for either maternal or paternal sole cus-
> tody is STILL ripping the child off for a parent.
> 

I didn't mean to argue for either parent to be sole custodian.  BUT the 
child should still be allowed the option to decide if they DON'T want to
visit a parent.  Quite a few years ago, a friend of mine was asked by her
14 year old son to go to court so he would not be forced to continue to
visit his father.  The father was very verbally abusive to the boy and
he just didn't want to have to go through the visits any more.  The judge
agreed and suspended the visits.  It's such a shame when a parent treats
a child like this.  He was an only child, too.  But the father was still
very bitter against his ex-wife, even though they had both remarried.
In fact, the father had married the woman who broke up the marriage!
(His ex had divorced him due to infidelity.)  I've often wondered if 
perhaps the father was jealous since his wife had remarried fairly well.
BTW, the mother had only asked for minimal support, about $20 per week
so he really had no grounds for complaint in that area.

Sue

> ---
> Bob Kirkpatrick <bobk@dogear.spk.wa.us>
> Dog Ear'd Systems of Spokane, WA
Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights,alt.child-support,soc.men
From: cgates@mitre.org (Curt Gates)
Subject: Re: Itemized accounting of child support
Organization: The MITRE Corporation
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 17:47:01 GMT

In article <1993Jan4.152935.6417@desire.wright.edu> 
sbishop@desire.wright.edu writes:
> Besides, the point that was
> actually under discussion was whether child support should provide more
> than a minimal amount of support.

I picked up the thread without being able to see the start, and gathered 
from the title that it had something to do with accountability -- making 
sure support money went to feed and care for the child (children), and not 
to fund mommys drug and bingo habits.   The actual amount of support 
starts to be irrelevant when mom blows most of it on herself and leaves 
the child in need of shoes and a winter coat.   

Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights,alt.child-support
From: Philip Barr <pbarr@convex.UUCP>
Subject: Re: Custody
Originator: pbarr@mikey.convex.com
Reply-To: pbarr@convex.UUCP (Philip Barr)
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 00:01:45 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In article <1993Jan10.093205.6511@desire.wright.edu> sbishop@desire.wright.edu writes:
>
>child should still be allowed the option to decide if they DON'T want to
>visit a parent.  Quite a few years ago, a friend of mine was asked by her
>14 year old son to go to court so he would not be forced to continue to
>visit his father.  The father was very verbally abusive to the boy and
>he just didn't want to have to go through the visits any more.  The judge
>agreed and suspended the visits.  It's such a shame when a parent treats
>a child like this.  He was an only child, too.  But the father was still
>very bitter against his ex-wife, even though they had both remarried.

I could not disagree more.  What if, MOM talks negitive about her ex all
the time. Complains about how much he makes and how little he pays.  She
also reminds her son (for years) how mean dad was to her.  It is dads
fault everything went wrong.  When the son comes home after a visit, she
says things like.  He never had time before, if he loved you he would
give you more here,  you didn't have a good time did you, you don't like
his new wife.  You do!..Oh you don't love me.  The list could go on and
on.  After a few years of this, any child will start taking moms side.
Of course the child has to choose to make mom happy, who he lives with.
Even in this case it seems to be "fight with your ex and keep the children
in the middle".

As long as dad wants to see his children for any reason, he should be
allowed and any order to prevent it based on a childs saying he does not
want to is wrong.  This is true nomatter who got custody and who is the NCP.

Now that I said that.  I'm sure there are times that things come up in
a teenagers life.  If mom and dad work together, they can change weekend so
the teenager can attend the important functions.  The NCP can do those extra
trips to get the boy to those events, and so on.  The key is talk. Both
parties have to work together.


-- 
Phil Barr 				I Know That You Believe You
Systems Specialist - CONVEX TAC		Understand What You Think I Said,
pbarr@convex.com			But I'm Not Sure You Realize That
(214)/497-4421				What you Heard Is Not What I Meant.
Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights,alt.child-support,soc.men
From: smile1@dancer.cc.bellcore.com (gray,david l)
Subject: Re: Itemized accounting of child support
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 93 00:38:20 GMT

In article <1993Jan5.174701.17496@linus.mitre.org> cgates@mitre.org (Curt Gates) writes:
>In article <1993Jan4.152935.6417@desire.wright.edu> 
>sbishop@desire.wright.edu writes:
>> Besides, the point that was
>> actually under discussion was whether child support should provide more
>> than a minimal amount of support.
>
>I picked up the thread without being able to see the start, and gathered 
>from the title that it had something to do with accountability -- making 
>sure support money went to feed and care for the child (children), and not 
>to fund mommys drug and bingo habits.   The actual amount of support 
>starts to be irrelevant when mom blows most of it on herself and leaves 
>the child in need of shoes and a winter coat.   
>
I agree.  There really is no way to really equate payments to results.  What
you really want is your child raised right.  I am willing to bet if most
NCPs were allowed to have a real parent influence in the raising of their
children and overall they were being raised properly accountings would not
come up.  But some CPs do a real bad job and the system refuses to address
the issue.  

How would you address the real issue good parenting?  If you can determine
quality, the winter coat will come on it's own.  My ex-wife asks me for more
than a few hundred dollars at a time for things for my children.  I pay it 
without reciept or much question.  We basically decide what is good for them
and do it.  She is a real conscientious mother and I am not really interested
in her being bothered keeping books.  Raising children is enough work in it
self.  If she were a bum, I would want her off the job as CP and she could 
keep her money.  I would just do it myself.  Accounting is not the real 
problem, it is bad parenting.  If she were really a bad parent, I don't 
really think I could stop her.  Nothing that I have seen in 20 years
suggest to me that the system is really concerned about quality.  They are
even very slow to address issues fro really abused children that I have
worked with.  They are only fast with easy cases that there is a lot
of public sympathy to support them.  The hard ones they leave alone.

Smile,

Dave

Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights,alt.child-support,soc.men
From: cgates@mitre.org (Curt Gates)
Subject: Re: Itemized accounting of child support
Organization: The MITRE Corporation
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 22:12:52 GMT

In article <1993Jan6.122354.6441@desire.wright.edu> 
sbishop@desire.wright.edu writes:
> I would have no problem with doing itemized accounting
> for my foster son, it would certainly be worthwhile if it would make his
> father shut up.  Hmmmm, how much am I supposed to allot a mile for 
> transportation? 

I am at a loss to even suggest something.  You are absolutely right. It 
sure does get silly real soon.  Almost as silly as all the records I have 
to keep for the IRS and the state revenue people.  Yet I have to maintain 
all that stuff and can lose everything I own and go to jail I have if I 
dont keep records of purchases, sales, salaries, etc.  Bad enough for a 
business; ridiculous for a parent.  Yet,  maybe a diary of the trips and 
the receipts for food and clothing, and car expenses ought to be enough.  
If somebody then wants to figure out the total per person cost, then let 
them.  The difficulty is, all that stuff can be falsified if someone 
really wants to. The fact that you care enough to take the child to 
practice and games says a lot about the quality of your care.  For sure, 
quality of parenting can not be measured in dollars.  Wonderful parenting 
can be done (and is done) below the poverty level.  And horrible parenting 
can be done (and is done) by the wealthy.  What I am concerned about is 
really basic stuff like how to make sure the child gets adequate food and 
warm clothing when the non-custodial parent is providing enough money to 
make sure this happens.  I am not talking ponies and Florida condos.  (The 
kid should be so lucky. ) I am concerned about the child being hungry and 
keeping warm.  And that the custodial parent does not take the money and 
blow it on bingo and drugs.  Any ideas on how to deal with that, short of 
charges of unfit parent, etc.  It seems a requirement to provide some 
level of basic accounting might discourage this sort of behavior.  Even if 
this is only to provide copies of receipts, if requested.  At least that 
would be *some* level of accountability, which is better than none at all.


Xref: sparky alt.dads-rights:3199 alt.child-support:4205 soc.men:22308
From: chrz@tellabs.com (Peter Chrzanowski)
Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights,alt.child-support,soc.men
Subject: Re: Itemized accounting of child support
Date: 7 Jan 93 00:04:54 GMT
Organization: Tellabs, Inc.

In article <1993Jan6.122354.6441@desire.wright.edu>, sbishop@desire.wright.edu writes:

> I would have no problem with doing itemized accounting
> for my foster son, it would certainly be worthwhile if it would make his
> father shut up.

Sorry, Sue, but this to me indicates an attitude problem.  The kid's father may
well be a class-A jerk but I really don't think it should be your business, as
the kid's foster parent, to be the one to say so.  The fact is, jerk or not,
he's still the kid's father and the kid may well have some hopes about him.  
Perhaps they will be realized some day.

>  Hmmmm, how much am I supposed to allot a mile for 
> transportation?  I routinely put about 100+ miles a week during the
> summer, just taking Mike to and fro to softball practice and games.  
> 
> Do I just average in his share of the food or put down cost per meal?  
> 
> As for laundry, do I charge by the item or by the load?  How about wear
> and tear on the house?  
> 
> As you can see, this can get silly very quickly.

It can, but it doesn't have to.  Particulary in those cases where ordered
child support is well above any reasonable minimum that might be required
to raise the kid.
Xref: sparky alt.dads-rights:3165 alt.child-support:4162 soc.men:22240
Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights,alt.child-support,soc.men
Subject: Re: Itemized accounting of child support
From: lisa@oneb2.almanac.bc.ca
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 93 21:45:22 PST
Organization: The Old Coot's (Spare) Almanac

rutkows@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Chris Rutkowski) writes:

> I for one would like to see some accountability for the child support I
> pay.  My ex has remarried and now boasts constantly about all the "new
> things" they are acquiring, such as a boat, van, airplane (!) and more
> mundane things such as VCRs, camcorders, trips to Disneyland, etc.
> Meanwhile, I roll pennies to buy milk.
> 
> There's something wrong here, somewhere.

Chris,

WELCOME!:-))  So nice to hear from someone else on this side of the border!
I'm still hoping to see/hear more from Canuck CPs and NCPs on this net.

Assuming (no offense intended:-)) that you manage your money responsibly, then
I would say there's definitely "something wrong here, somewhere".  Have you
tried making an Application to Vary?  Keep your receipts (for EVERYTHING), & pay
stubs, tax returns, etc., and take your order back to the courts for a review.
I know the receipts bit is a severe pain in the derriere, but you may find it
well worth the trouble.  Even if you've made an Application to Vary before, if
your financial circumstances have changed, or related details, since your last
order, try it again.  (I'm assuming here that efforts to reach a mutually
satisfying settlement out of court with your ex have proven unsuccessful.)

If you'd be willing, I'd be very interested in the details of how your order
for payment amounts came about (e-mail)?  I am painfully aware that the Canadian
courts are not always equitable in their depositions/orders, although as far as
I can determine, they appear to be more reasonable than those of the U.S. courts.

If we would hear more from Canadians on this net, we might get a better sense of
what's really going on in THIS country, as well.  I must say though, that this
net seems to be largely contributed to by male NCPs, and more posts from CPs
(male and female) would also help balance the forums more.  My guess is, there's
simply more men than women out there who have/are using modems, therefore, we
see more posts from men than women? Since men are usually the NCPs in these
cases, that would explain why so many posters on this net seem to be men.

Lisa

               lisa@oneb2.almanac.bc.ca (Lisa Lambeth)
                      The Old Coot's Almanac
               Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada
                    Courtesy the old coot hisse'f!
Xref: sparky alt.dads-rights:3229 alt.child-support:4252 soc.men:22388
From: snodgras@lclark.edu (Bil Snodgrass)
Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights,alt.child-support,soc.men
Subject: Re: Itemized accounting of child support
Date: 8 Jan 93 14:27:37 GMT
Article-I.D.: lclark.1993Jan8.142737.21266
Organization: Lewis & Clark College, Portland OR

In article <1993Jan8.065337.6472@desire.wright.edu> sbishop@desire.wright.edu writes:
>In article <1993Jan06.235254.6318@xenitec.on.ca>, merce@xenitec.on.ca (Jim Mercer) writes:
>> In article <1993Jan6.122354.6441@desire.wright.edu> sbishop@desire.wright.edu writes:
>>>I would have no problem with doing itemized accounting
>>>for my foster son, it would certainly be worthwhile if it would make his
>>>father shut up.  Hmmmm, how much am I supposed to allot a mile for 
>>>transportation?  I routinely put about 100+ miles a week during the
>>>summer, just taking Mike to and fro to softball practice and games.  
>>>
>>>Do I just average in his share of the food or put down cost per meal?  
>>>
>>>As for laundry, do I charge by the item or by the load?  How about wear
>>>and tear on the house?  
>>>
>>>As you can see, this can get silly very quickly.
>> 
>> if this gets silly, imagine how silly it seems to NCP's when an arbitrary
>> amount is determined for them to pay for support.
>> 
>> if the CP can't justify the amount of support required, why should the NCP
>> be content paying that amount?
>
>Well, if my foster son's father wants an accounting, I guess I could work
>one up pretty quickly.  
>Let's see, last night I had to drive to town to pick Mike up at the library
>where he was working on a book report.  It's seven miles one way to town,
>then there's wear and tear on the car, then there's my time.  I occasionally
>do consultant work.... do I charge my consultant fee or my usual work pay?
>Also, do I figure in the time I spent at home afterward, checking Mike's
>sore throat and administering medicine?
>
>Sue
>> 
>> -- 
>> [ Jim Mercer   Reptilian Research  merce@iguana.reptiles.org  +1 416-506-0654 ]
>> [                      longer life through colder blood                       ]


Isn't it strange that society insists on all of this belly hoooo when
it comes to fathers who have left the home, but society will not
ask for an accounting from still married couples?  How many children
out there with both parents still together don't get enough to eat, wear
or enough medical attention.......We should make all parents accountable
for their children......
Xref: sparky alt.dads-rights:3222 alt.child-support:4248 soc.men:22382
From: sbishop@desire.wright.edu
Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights,alt.child-support,soc.men
Subject: Re: Itemized accounting of child support
Date: 8 Jan 93 06:57:31 EST
Organization:  Wright State University 

In article <1993Jan7.000454.19022@tellab5.tellabs.com>, chrz@tellabs.com (Peter Chrzanowski) writes:
> In article <1993Jan6.122354.6441@desire.wright.edu>, sbishop@desire.wright.edu writes:
> 
>> I would have no problem with doing itemized accounting
>> for my foster son, it would certainly be worthwhile if it would make his
>> father shut up.
> 
> Sorry, Sue, but this to me indicates an attitude problem.  The kid's father may
> well be a class-A jerk but I really don't think it should be your business, as
> the kid's foster parent, to be the one to say so.  The fact is, jerk or not,
> he's still the kid's father and the kid may well have some hopes about him.  
> Perhaps they will be realized some day.

I'm entitled to my opinion about the guy.  What I say about him is not said
in front of Mike.  I've tried encouraging a relationship between Mike and
his father.  Mike doesn't want to discuss him at all and doesn't want to
even see him at all.  Repeated rejections tend to do that to a kid.  When
I wrote (very nicely) to Mike's dad after Mike started living with us, I
received hate mail back from the man.  
Jerk is a kind term, relatively, considereing how he has acted.

> 
>>  Hmmmm, how much am I supposed to allot a mile for 
>> transportation?  I routinely put about 100+ miles a week during the
>> summer, just taking Mike to and fro to softball practice and games.  
>> 
>> Do I just average in his share of the food or put down cost per meal?  
>> 
>> As for laundry, do I charge by the item or by the load?  How about wear
>> and tear on the house?  
>> 
>> As you can see, this can get silly very quickly.
> 
> It can, but it doesn't have to.  Particulary in those cases where ordered
> child support is well above any reasonable minimum that might be required
> to raise the kid.
> 
Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights
From: beaver@castor.cs.psu.edu (Don Beaver)
Subject: Re: College is not a "right".
Organization: Penn State Computer Science
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 14:40:45 GMT

In article <1993Jan8.131349.23803@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> mgsail@prefect.cc.bellcore.com (goldstein,marvin) writes:
>In article <24742@galaxy.ucr.edu> starbuck@galaxy.ucr.edu (starbuck) writes:
>>Is there a chance that your situation could become a test case for the High
>>Courts?  I would think that alimony should be a thing of the past and that
>>women today should be able to ( or made to ) take care of themselves.  If
>>your ex-wife makes 60,000 dollars a year that sounds to me like she has 
>>found the gravy train not to mention a weak character.  r
>>
>>It is quite obvious that the courts in N.J. are very biased.  
>
>I would love to take this all the way to the top but as I said before,
>what stops these are burn out and no funds.  In my case, I will run out
>of funds.  The first ruling cost me $3000.  An appeal will run some 
>$4000 to $6000 more.  That's why we need an organization to fight this
>because if the laws can be made fair, we all will benefit.

Try the ACLU.  Who knows?

Don
-- 
beaver@cs.psu.edu                       Opinions from the PC-challenged
Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights,alt.child-support,soc.men