HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ernest@pundit.cithep.caltech.edu (Ernest Prabhakar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Make it Cheap
Date: 30 Sep 92 19:54:41 GMT
Reply-To: ernest@pundit.cithep.caltech.edu (Ernest Prabhakar)
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: pundit.cithep.caltech.edu

In article <1992Sep30.185558.17827@cs.yale.edu> nathan@laplace.biology.yale.edu  
(Nathan F. Janette) writes:
> In article <1992Sep30.065523.19039@utstat.uucp> philip@utstat.uucp (Philip  
> McDunnough) writes:
> 
> > I couldn't disagree more with this point of view. NeXT
> > needs to offer entry level computers so that younger
> > people (students) will get them. This is a different era
> > than just a year or two ago. Low cost is in. Without that
> > NeXT will truly become a TI-99. 

Low cost has always been 'in' on the low end. NeXT is going for the high end,  
i.e. corporate, market.  People who want a low-power machine get a low-cost DOS  
box. People who want a high-power machine get a high-cost NeXT box.  You can't  
get high power for low price.  NeXT can make a comfortable living - and a name  
for itself - just from the corporate market.  However, it will not be a home  
machine 'for the rest of us' for a couple more years..

> 
> Regardless of what your point of view is (and Jon's too),
> you are ignoring the reality of the cost for the hardware
> *required* to run NeXTstep.  Jeez, you guys must have all
> seen 68030 cubes - the lack of performance for those boxes
> still haunts NeXT today!  Right now the cheapest minimum
> hardware that will support NeXTstep are 486 clones,
> preferably with EISA/LocalBus video setups, and that hardware
> costs $2,000-$3,000 without NeXTstep.

Right, Nathan.  Don't forget, the major issue for a NeXT is slinging PostScript  
around on the screen, so this is even a problem for 'PostScript terminals.'   
This takes both memory and CPU power.  If you start wanting to display  
QuickRenderman, then you're really talking serious munching.

When low-end '486 clones become fast enough to do everything NeXTSTEP wants to  
do - including all the graphics and memory access - then you'll see cheap NeXT  
boxes.  Until then, only the dedicated (or rich) will have them.

Sad, but that's life.
Tanstaafl,
- Ernie P.
--
Ernest N. Prabhakar                  Caltech High Energy Physics
Member, League for Programming Freedom (league@prep.ai.mit.edu)
CaJUN President        NeXTMail:ernest@pundit.cithep.caltech.edu
"...and ourselves, your servants for Jesus sake." - II Cor 4:5b
#import <std/disclaimer.h>
From: ifbb657@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Douglas Floyd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Crashes and burns
Summary: How often do NeXT machines crash and burn?
Date: 27 Sep 92 22:09:23 GMT
Reply-To: ifbb657@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Douglas Floyd)
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX
Originator: ifbb657@donald.cc.utexas.edu


  In general, how often does the NeXT OS crash, hanging the system?
How often do crashes that destroy the file system occur?

Please E-mail to save bandwith.

-- 
ifbb657@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Douglas R. Floyd)

MS-Windows NT:             (Insert standard disclaimer here)
                           
Another reason to leave
your computer turned off.
From: ernest@pundit.cithep.caltech.edu (Ernest Prabhakar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: 4.0 Wish: Bundled Groupware Tool
Date: 30 Sep 1992 19:06:30 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Distribution: world
Reply-To: ernest@pundit.cithep.caltech.edu (Ernest Prabhakar)
NNTP-Posting-Host: pundit.cithep.caltech.edu



> In article <1992Sep30.180319.20967@CS.ORST.EDU> chase@stumpy.cs.orst.edu (A.  
Chase Turner) writes:
> 
> My 4.0 Wish: Interactive groupware support tool bundled with NeXT OS
> NeXT Mail is an effective inter-personal communication tool that
> allows individuals to serialize requests/responses in their own,
> individual time; groupware tools are designed to manage
> coordinated interaction in highly concurrent working sessions
> where effective problem solving is based upon real-time group
> interaction. 

Sounds fascinating, but for those of us who are less familiar with the jargon,  
could you elaborate a bit?  It seems like a part of this is Distributed/Remote  
Objects.  Is what you really want something like Adamation's LiveWire, except  
perhaps at the system level, and built on top of Dist. Objects?
Or am I missing the point entirely?
- Ernie P.
--
Ernest N. Prabhakar                  Caltech High Energy Physics
Member, League for Programming Freedom (league@prep.ai.mit.edu)
CaJUN President        NeXTMail:ernest@pundit.cithep.caltech.edu
"...and ourselves, your servants for Jesus sake." - II Cor 4:5b
#import <std/disclaimer.h>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu (Stefano Pagiola)
Subject: Re:  NeXTstep Terminal
Reply-To: spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu
Organization: DSO, Stanford University
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 92 19:53:08 GMT

Jim Mann writes
> And that's only the first step.  Doesn't NeXTstep-486 also need
> an EISA or MCA bus (most 486's out there still only use ISA 
> buses) and a graphics accelerator board of some type?
> 

Actually, MCA won't be supported, at least initially.

--
-
Stefano Pagiola
Food Research Institute, Stanford University
spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu (NeXTMail encouraged)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: nathan@laplace.biology.yale.edu (Nathan F. Janette)
Subject: Re: Make it Cheap
Reply-To: nathan@laplace.biology.yale.edu
Organization: Yale University, Department of Computer Science, New Haven, CT
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 18:55:58 GMT

In article <1992Sep30.065523.19039@utstat.uucp> philip@utstat.uucp (Philip  
McDunnough) writes:

> I couldn't disagree more with this point of view. NeXT
> needs to offer entry level computers so that younger
> people (students) will get them. This is a different era
> than just a year or two ago. Low cost is in. Without that
> NeXT will truly become a TI-99. 

Regardless of what your point of view is (and Jon's too),
you are ignoring the reality of the cost for the hardware
*required* to run NeXTstep.  Jeez, you guys must have all
seen 68030 cubes - the lack of performance for those boxes
still haunts NeXT today!  Right now the cheapest minimum
hardware that will support NeXTstep are 486 clones,
preferably with EISA/LocalBus video setups, and that hardware
costs $2,000-$3,000 without NeXTstep.

--
Nathan Janette		"I'm a NeXTstep man,
Dept MB&B, Yale Univ	 I'm a NeXTcube guy"
New Haven, CT
nathan@laplace.biology.yale.edu (NeXT)

Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: philip@utstat.uucp (Philip McDunnough)
Subject: Re: Make it Cheap
Organization: University of Toronto, Dept. of Statistics
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1992 07:59:19 GMT

In article <1992Oct4.024930.2194@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu> spice@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu writes:

[Quotes Nathan and myself and then really gets to what is probably the real
 reason-marketing.]
>
>Nathan, did ever occur to you that NeXT engineers may be recommending
>a 486 EISA machine for marketing reasons, not performance reasons?
>Cant you see that if NeXTStep could run on one of the dime a dozen
>$2000 SVGA 486 boxes practically no one would buy NeXT hardware? 
>And since Steve Jobs wants to stay in the hardware business for reasons 
>of ego , i.e. to prove to Apple they were wrong in firing him, he has 
>no choice but to spec the requirements of NeXTStep 486 so high as to
>ensure that he can keep selling hardware. 
>
>NeXT is in a real interesting position here. They need to be able
>to say that they are moving into the Intel market in order to attact
>the big PC developers onto the NeXT platform and to keep the few they
>already have developing for the NeXT. Yet if they spec NeXTStep so 
>that it runs on the generic PC clone they kill their hardware sales. 
>And please dont tell me about the wonderful education discounts NeXT 
>offers. Those are only available to college students and faculty, a 
>relatively small group while anyone can pick up a issue of Computer 
>Shopper and buy a $2000 clone.

Let's get one thing clear here. NeXT does not offer great academic discounts.
The discount is variable, secretive and related to sales in particular
schools. None of their competitors does that.
 
HP, DEC, IBM, etc...and even Apple offer better discounts where I happen to
work (which is the largest university in Canada). Wonder why there are few
NeXT's here?

[ ]
 
Philip McDunnough
University of Toronto
philip@utstat.toronto.edu
From: daynem@byron.u.washington.edu (Dayne Miller)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: NeXTSTEP 4.0 Wish List
Date: 29 Sep 92 20:12:34 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Sep29.201234.27258
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

NeXTSTEP 3.0 is just barely here (I haven't used it yet), but I'd like to know
what everyone out there is looking for in NeXTSTEP 4.0. Yes, this is probably
extremely premature, but I'm curious (and it might be a good idea for NeXT to
have some additional input for their long-range planning).

Ground Rules:

1. Please *e-mail ONLY*; I'll post a summary in a week or two.

2. No NeXTmail; I can't get it :-( :-( :-(

3. I'm [just] a user, not a programmer; keep ideas fairly nontechnical

4. Major changes/additions only; assume small bug fixes will be taken care of
     in NS3.1, 3.2, etc. I'm looking for suggestions for a *substantial* NS
     upgrade.

5. Go ahead and assume some kind of faster chip set (some present or future
     iteration of 88k, PA-RISC, or possibly even 680x0 ('060, maybe?)), so
     NS 4.0 will probably be able to accomplish speed-dependant tasks faster
     than 3.x could hope for; i.e. 3-D animation, etc. Keep your expectations
     reasonable, though (no 250+ mips likely in the near future, I'd guess).

6. Be creative!!!

7. Be practical.

     Give me about 2 weeks to collect and organize all your suggestions, and
I'll let y'all know what I received.

     Thanks heaps-

         -Dayne Miller
            daynem@u.washington.edu
From: izumi@pinoko.berkeley.edu (Izumi Ohzawa)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why didn't Apple sue?
Date: 3 Oct 1992 07:16:35 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Distribution: world
Reply-To: izumi@pinoko.berkeley.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: moica.berkeley.edu

Karl Thoroddsen writes
>Why didn't Apple sue NeXT for look-n-feel
>when the NeXT Workspace shell was first released?

Because care was taken to make sure legally that NeXT GUI decended
from Xerox PARC inventions and not from the Mac.  It doesn't
look-n-feel like a Mac anyway.

--
Izumi Ohzawa             [ $BBg_78^=;(J ]
USMail: University of California, 360 Minor Hall, Berkeley, CA 94720
Telephone: (510) 642-6440     Fax:  (510) 642-6341
Internet: izumi@pinoko.berkeley.edu (NeXT Mail OK)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu (Stefano Pagiola)
Subject: Re: Need help over in comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Reply-To: spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu
Organization: DSO, Stanford University
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 92 18:38:31 GMT

Sean Luke writes
> John Coolidge, who has for a long time insisted on the net
> that NeXTs are inferior to Macs and now works for Apple,
> refuses to stop telling everyone at comp.sys.mac.advocacy
> that NeXTSTEP comes free with NeXTs.

You mean: he is saying it DOESN'T come free with NeXT :-)

I've emailed him a couple of times on that too, but he seems pretty  
invulnerable to facts.  Then again, given the track record of Univ.  
bookstores handling NeXTs, it is not impossible that his bookstore  
was all screwed up and got it wrong.  Perhaps the best thing would be  
if someone could contact the campus rep at his old bookstore (was it  
UIUC? I lost the original post) and have them post either a  
disclaimer or a 'oops, we goofed back then, the truth is...'

(and no, lets not get back into the 'what is truth' discussion)

--
-
Stefano Pagiola
Food Research Institute, Stanford University
spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu (NeXTMail encouraged)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: rpomeroy@aunext3.amd.com (Ron Pomeroy x(Coop))
Subject: Re: Sun OR NeXT?! - help
Reply-To: rpomeroy@aunext3.amd.com
Organization: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.; Austin, Texas
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 92 00:17:23 GMT

In article <1992Sep30.141452.24822@dvorak.amd.com> rpomeroy@aunext3.amd.com  
(Ron Pomeroy x(Coop)) writes:
>>In article <1992Sep29.202906.3917@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu>  
eboltz@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu  
>>(Eric Scott Boltz) writes:
>>>>Dear NeXTers,
>>>>I've started a new job at NIST in Boulder, CO and need to get 
>>>>a workstation. In grad school I used an '040 cube with 64Mb of
>>>>RAM and a 640 MB Fujitsu (and of course an OD - it was an 'upgraded'
>>>>cube). I also owned a NeXTstation at home for a while (sold it).
>>>>
>>>>Here's my situation: I have to get a workstation _soon_ since the gov't's
>>>>fiscal year begins in Oct and all the funds get spent quick.
>>>>
>>>>Everyone here used SPARCs, so they're pushing me in that direction; hard.
>>>>My main uses are: Mathematica, mathematical modelling of wave propagation
>>>>(i.e. lots of numerical integration of complex functions), image  
processing,
>>>>word processing, spreadsheet, etc. 
>>>>
>>>>The SPARC systems under consideration are the IPX and (maybe) the Sparc  
10-31
>>>>which is considerably faster than ANY NeXT.
>>>>Either machine will need a C/C++ compiler, FORTRAN and Mathematica.
>>>>
>>>>Now the hard part; how to sell my leaders on a NeXT...?
>>>>
>>>>Eric S. Boltz
>>>>eboltz@cndenext.mrs.jhu.edu
>>>>eboltz@srv430.bldr.nist.gov      
>>>>eboltz@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu
>>>>etc, etc.
>>>>
>>>>Thanks in advance.
>>
>>I've had the opportunity to use Mma on Suns, Macs, NeXTs, and PCs (Windoz).
>>
>>Fact.  
>>
>>The Notebook front end to Mma on the NeXT blows them all away !  Combine  
>>InterfaceBuilder with the new and improved Mathlink and you'll be building  
>>custom frontends to a kernal in a fraction of the time it would take to do it
			^^^^^^
			oops...that's kernel :-)
  
>>on any of the other platforms.  You might also consider this - On the SUN,  
try  
>>getting that beautiful Mma 3D graph into FrameMaker (or whatever you're  
using).   
>>If it's as easy as command-c commamd-v then go for the faster machine,  
>>otherwise I think the NeXT is the way to go (especially considering the apps  
>>you want to run).
>>
>>
>>--
>>Ronald Pomeroy		[Objective-CruntimeBe:[Smalltalk runtime]];
>>Advanced Micro Devices	[self dream-on];
>>CAM Applications Group
>>rpomeroy@aunext3.amd.com (NeXTmail preferred)

--
Ronald Pomeroy		[Objective-Cruntime: [Smalltalk runtime]];
Advanced Micro Devices	[self dream-on];
CAM Applications Group
rpomeroy@aunext3.amd.com (NeXTmail preferred)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: billb@fnbc.com (Bill Burcham)
Subject: Re: NeXTstep Terminals (was Re: In BYTE (NeXT) veritas)
Organization: First National Bank Of Chicago, Chicago IL, USA
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 92 16:27:57 GMT

In comp.sys.next.advocacy article <1992Sep24.140809.953@yvax.byu.edu> you  
wrote:
> In article <2088@ltb.ltb.bso.nl>  writes:
> >
> >Should NeXT build el cheapo access to Display PostScript and the  
NeXTSTEP
> >windowing model? Ehh, dunno.
> >
> >As Jon points out, it would increase the availability of NeXTSTEP.
> >
(MUNCH) 
> Whoa, whoa...
> 
> We don't need diskless workstations here, we need NeXTSTEP *terminals*.   
> As in -NXHost.  The user logs into the terminal, but *really* logs into  
a  
> server in the next room.  The programs, files, everything, is executed  
on  
> the server, but just the display is shown on his terminal.  The only  
> problem with this is the amount of gunk Display PostScript would send  
> through the net.  Not Good.  But the proposition *is* feasible with some  
> tweaking.  And users probably would not mind the speed difference if  
they  
> could get a terminal for, say, $1000.
                                 ^^^^^^
> 
> Which is possible.  After all, we're just talking a monitor, keyboard,  
> mouse, and small amount of networking stuff here.
> 

1K -- right... AS IF!  I can't even find a decent _monitor_ for that  
price, let alone a monitor plus keyboard and a "small amount of networking  
stuff".  And even if I had that stuff hanging on my network I would find  
it so slow as to be useless.

I think the whole terminal idea is retrograde today.  We should be moving  
to _distributed_ computing and away from client-server.  Further, I  
believe that if you look at the current market for X-terminals you will  
see that the price/performance tradeoff just doesn't work in their favor.   
Terminals were good when interfaces were about 1.5 dimensional, but now  
with the richer interface requirements, the distrib. model is the only one  
that can work.
--
+--------------------------------+----------------------------------+
|          Bill Burcham          | "The real world is the place     |
|     Protector of the Realm     |  between your toilet at home and |
| First National Bank of Chicago |  your toilet at work."           |
|    billb@fnbc.com  (NeXTmail)  |                                  |
+--------------------------------+----------------------------------+
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: erno@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (Erno Pena)
Subject: Is Garfinkel's and Mahoney's NeXTstep programming book out yet?
Reply-To: erno@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 05:36:37 GMT

I just got the Winter '92 NeXTWORLD and saw in the back an ad for Garfinkel's  
and Mahoney's NeXTstep programming book. Is it out yet? My $40 is waiting.

--

E r n e s t o   F.   B.   P e n a      |     "Volite Magis,
................................      |      Facite Magis,
erno@uiuc.edu   NeXTmail accepted      |      Estote Magis."
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: philip@utstat.uucp (Philip McDunnough)
Subject: Re: Make it Cheap
Organization: University of Toronto, Dept. of Statistics
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 04:14:18 GMT

In article <BvMCvE.sG@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> lemson@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (David Lemson) writes:

[ ]
>
>From what I'm told, at least HP and possibly Apple have similar
>graduated discount schemes.  Who knows how IBM decides what prices
>to give to an educational institution... 

That must be recent with HP then. It used to be a standard %38 off and 3-year
warranty in Canada.
 
Apple's discount has always been standard. What isn't is the markup that 
certain Computer Shop's in universities charge.
 
When I say HP, DEC, etc...I mean their workstations.

[ ]

Philip
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: dlw@atherton.com (Remo Williams)
Subject: NeXT Nitro?
Organization: Atherton Technology, Inc.
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 18:08:14 GMT

So, here I was thinking I was one of the NeXT cognoscenti only to be humbled by  
realising I had no clue what the following was:

>When running Speedometer 3.01 under Executor on a 25MHz NeXTstation (i.e.
>their original slab, not the new 33MHz or the as yet announced "nitro"),

So what is the "nitro"? 

1) Just a turbo with a faster clock?
2) A turbo with a faster clock and more expensive RAM?
3) A multiprocessor 040 station? Could be bitchin if so.
4) A 040 machine that is just as fast as a 50mhz 486DX?
5) The woebegon NRW? -Nah- 

A sign that Motorola has finally figured out how to fab faster 040 chips? Just  
what is it with Moto anyway--are they PURPOSEFULLY TRYING to get out of the CPU  
business? I would like to see them succeed, yet they seem to have so many  
problems getting chips working, yields up, and kicking up Mr. Clock speed.
I'd have expected a 70-90 mhz 040 by now.

More to the point when will we see the Nitro?
--
David Williams -- dlw@atherton.com -- NeXTMail welcome
	          dlw@netcom.com   -- NeXTMail welcome
From: spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu (Stefano Pagiola)
Subject: NeXT prices (again)
Reply-To: spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu
Organization: DSO, Stanford University
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 92 17:52:20 GMT

There has been quite a bit of discussion over in c.s.mac.advocacy  
recently about the relative advantages of NeXTs, Macs, and other  
systems.  Here is an opinion in a recent post that I thought would be  
of interest in this group given the recent discussion here about NeXT  
prices.  This general opinion was voiced repeatedly, in slightly  
different ways, both in posts and in email.

> ... The NeXT is a nice machine,
> but way above most people's budgets.  If NeXT came out with
> an entry- level machine -- something comparable in price and
> performance to a Mac IIsi -- I would buy one.  But until that
> time, I probably wouldn't buy a NeXT even if I could afford it,
> because until that entry-level machine is introduced, NeXT
> software development is never going to take off.
>   

Now I certainly _don't_ think that NeXT should bring out a machine in  
the MacIIsi range, simply because at that level of performance it  
would not be a NeXT, it would be a IIsi.  For those who are happy  
with the power offered by a Mac IIsi, the best choice is ... a Mac  
IIsi.

But this train of thought once again points up that even among people  
who know about NeXTs and like them, having good price/performance may  
not get you very far if the actual price is too high, either because  
people can't get over the initial hurdle of buying in, or because  
they fear being stuck with a niche machine.  This is a lesson that  
Apple has also learnt the hard way.

Given the high-quality, high-end components used in a NeXT, expecting  
substantial price declines is probably unrealistic, but I think there  
should be room for reducing the price of the current low-end machine  
(the non-turbo mono NeXTstation), whose price has remained  
essentially unchanged in the last two years.  As I've argued before,  
I think that the resulting higher market share and putting more  
machines in the hands of enthusiastic young hackers would lead to  
more software and help pull NeXT out of the no software/no sales/no  
software chicken-and-egg trap. 

Ciao,
Stefano
--
-
Stefano Pagiola
Food Research Institute, Stanford University
spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu (NeXTMail encouraged)
From: dillon@overload.Berkeley.CA.US (Matthew Dillon)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Ranting about faults in NeXTstep ( was NeXTStep :-)
Distribution: world
Date: 3 Oct 92 08:07:28 PST
Organization: Not an Organization

>In article <80932@ut-emx.uucp> alex@fiskville.mc.utexas.edu writes:
>It would appear that you have come upon what might be called a bug or,
>rather, a feature that was overlooked for implementation. Rather than
>ranting about it here (where it will do you very little good) why not
>email someone at NeXT and politely mention to them that you feel this is
>an important aspect of the operating system that was left out. I am sure
>that your comments... your positive feedback... will have some value to
>NeXT and your suggestions may be included in a future system revision.
>NeXT claims to be very serious about being a flexible environment and this
>feature sounds like it could be useful so perhaps they will listen
>(although I wouldn't call them idiots to their faces).

    What kind nonsense is this?  This is comp.sys.next.advocacy, we can
    talk about whatever we like.

    And besides, any time I come across what I would consider a bug I
    always mail it to bug_next... AND post it to the net.

					-Matt
>--
>***************************************
>Alex Currier
>Texas Union MicroCenter
>University of Texas at Austin
>
>NeXTmail Preferred

--

    Matthew Dillon		dillon@Overload.Berkeley.CA.US
    1005 Apollo Way		uunet.uu.net!overload!dillon
    Incline Village, NV. 89451	ham: KC6LVW (no mail drop)
    USA 			Sandel-Avery Engineering (702)831-8000