HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: u0a38@seq1.cc.keele.ac.uk (LJ Barton)
Subject: (Feminist) cyberpunk
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 16:43:11 WET
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HIGH THERE...
	     In message <1992Nov7.143313.8686@ac.dal.ca>, Ethan Clarke
writes:

>Could anyone please tell me where I could find/get essays/articles/pappers
>on saxism in cyberpunk?  I have a feminist friend who always calls me a sexist
>pig because I happened to have read a few cyberpunk books.  I have only read
>Gibson's works so I don't have enough expirence to dis/agre with my friend. So
>if any one has a file to email/ a ftp site name / or just wants to do a quikie
>up, I'd really apreciate it!

   Loads of people wrote to the net saying that his friend was as sexist
as s/he made HIM out to be, if not more so, but nobody, apart from
(typically) Andy Hawks, replied to the request as required.

   So...In the hope of supplying you with something a bit more useful
than the usual flamebait, Ethan, why don't you suggest to your friend
that s/he read something by Pat Cadigan. 'Patterns' would be an excellent
place to start, followed by 'Mindplayers' or 'Synners'.

   They're not essays, but they are cyberpunk literature, written by a
(feminist) WOMAN.

    Hope that helps...

			Cheers,
				Lol

--

	New .sig file under construction...Watch this space.
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
From: ashall@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Andrew S Hall)
Subject: Mondo 2K Guide to Life
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 16:38:19 GMT

These are a few comments on the Mondo 2000 Guide to the New Edge.
                                (ISBN 0-06-096928-8)

In the section on appropriation (as art form) they say,
"There were always legal questions...which came to nothing."
Oh, were this so! Actually it was until recently.  Case in point:
Jeff Koons.    This sculpture was sued by the producers of an
absolutely idiotic postcard of a couple with a shitload of dogs.
He produced a sculpture in emulation of the postcard. They sued.
He lost.
This judgement passed down recently sets a dangerous precedent for
appropriation (quintessential Po-Mo art form).  I imagine the Mondo 2K
people had already written the stuff before the judgement, but I had to post 
this in interest of preventing complancency.

Also, in re Body Implant. This idea is NOT catching on. Did anyone see
60 Minutes last Sunday (Nov. 8)?   There was a piece on a device
that allows some deaf people to hear.
The president of the American Association for the Deaf was on camera
as opposing this device!!!!  They also had people who stated that
parents had no right to make the choice to get the device
for their children!!  If there is resistance to an implant that
merely gives someone abilities equal to most humans, imagine the
resistance to ones that give extra-human abilities.


I post this notice basically to draw attention to the fact that
we can't sit here on the Net and indulge in mutual self-admiration
and flaming.  There are forces out in the world that would take
away all we want. (cf recent rulings involving importation of
non-illegal drugs and the Hatch amendment to restict various
dietary supplements to prescription only.)

Maybe alt.activism is the proper place for this rant, but I think
those of us who believe in "cyberculture" need to speak out
for ourselves.

Please respond with agreement/dis  and esp. ideas of what to do beside
sit by our terminals and gripe.

Andrew Hall

* Humanity won't be happy until the last capitalist is hung   *
* with the guts of the last bureaucrat.                       *
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
From: wizard@wixer.cactus.org (John P Onorato)
Subject: Re: William Gibson
Organization: Real/Time Communications
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 06:57:15 GMT

In article <1992Nov9.011305.16543@sserve.cc.adfa.oz.au> braca2@cspyr1.cs.adfa.oz.au (BRAY CHRISTOPHER) writes:
>wizard@wixer.cactus.org (John P Onorato) writes:
>>>
>>well, actually, I would read the FAQ if ti was available; I guess the next 
>>time it gets posted I shall.  Anyway, all I really wanted to ask him is 
>>if I could use the name 'Ono-Sendai' in a story I'm writing....  but who 
>>the hell kjnows where that's going; perhaps I should just worry about it
>>when I get to that point.  
>
>I believe (and I may be wrong) that ono-sendai is Tom Maddox's, I 
>understand that Tom gave permission to WG to use some of his names.
>Correct me if I am wrong please.
>Mr Maddox is on the net.
>
Alright, then, where can I get ahold of Mr Maddox?


john



-- 
John P Onorato             |   "Softness without strength is weakness.
wizard@wixer.cactus.org    |    Strength without softness is meanness."
cactus.org!wixer!wizard    |             -- Mahatma Gandhi
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk,alt.sex,rec.music.industrial,alt.industrial
From: mike@highlite.uucp (Mike Wiik)
Subject: Re: ROBO-COPULATION
Organization: Gotham Communications Research
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 04:39:31 GMT

Shit, I thought my LAST followup was to Logan's post. If I f'd up
I sincerely apologize. But anyway:

ratner@owlnet.rice.edu (Logan Joshua Ratner) writes:

[heavily edited]

>Great strides are made from inside and out to achieve that measure
>of equality and those who try to help don't like being slapped for
>our efforts.

Indeed this is disappointing and a problem. If we're sincere, though,
it shouldn't deter us. True equality requires dealing with the
prejudices of all sides involved. That's one of the reasons I think
real equality still has a long, long way to go, despite your efforts
(and those who think similarily) and, to a certain extent, because
of them...  ?

	-Mike

-- 
   | o==== . : ... :  :  .     |Mail Me Neat Stuff->POB 3703 Arlington VA 22203
 --@-- . o o o ... O -O- o o : |No disclaimers needed: I actually pay for this.
   |           ... :  :        |-----------------------------------------------
mEssAGE fRoM sPAcE ARt stUdiOs |Man:TheMissingLinkBetweenApes&HigherIntelligence
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk,alt.industrial,alt.sex,alt.sex.bondage
From: mfterman@flower.Princeton.EDU (Mutant for Hire)
Subject: Re: Perhaps we have forgotten the teachings of Jesus
Reply-To: mfterman@phoenix.princeton.edu (Mutant for Hire)
Organization: Mutant for Hire, Inc.
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 04:57:32 GMT

In article <1992Nov9.044003.25837@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>, sgreever@nyx.cs.du.edu (Steven Greever) writes:
>The more I look at people's postings about the problems of the world in our
>Industrial Society, I keep thinking, perhaps we have forgotten the
>techings of Jesus.

I agree. I believe that churches should not be in the moneymaking business,
that prayer is a privite thing between man and God and that those who do
pray in public are proud and hence sinful. I also believe that the rich
people should give up their money and that we should go to communal living
instead of this evil capitalism.

Or did you have some other parts of his teachings in mind?

>We must recognize Jesus as our true savior as always
>to lead us into the divine light of revelation.  Yet what do you people 
>practice: Ugliness, Deviance, Delinquency.

Well, we really prefer to avoid the ugly stuff in favor of beautiful
scenes. Most of us here aren't delinqents either, being pretty well
educated.

As for deviance, hey you don't get good at it unless you practice a lot.

>Jesus can show you all your
>true path in life, and then maybe you can all co-operate and be friendly
>with each other in industry.

Last few parties I went to, people were friendly and cooperated with each
other.

>If we each followed the Golden Rule: "Do unto others as you would have
>them do unto you", 
>there would be no problems in society.AA

Most of the switches here live by that rule.

Any other comments?
-- 
    Martin Terman, Mutant for Hire, Mean Ol' Top, Priest of Shub-Internet
    Disclaimer: Nobody else takes me seriously, why should you be the first?
mfterman@phoenix.princeton.edu mfterman@pucc.bitnet terman@pupgga.princeton.edu
"Sig quotes are like bumper stickers, only without the same sense of relevance"
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk,alt.industrial
From: pbancrof@nyx.cs.du.edu (Phil Bancroft)
Subject: Re: Women in CP/Industrial Culture?
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 01:16:44 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.223918.23019@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> gallen@nyx.cs.du.edu (Geoff Allen) writes:
>In article <BxHCB9.7AH@bunyip.cc.uq.oz.au> kinsler@newton.physics.uq.oz.au (Paul Kinsler) writes:
>>In article <1992Nov9.033906.28905@athena.cs.uga.edu>, houk@athena.cs.uga.edu (Joshua Houk) writes:

[much deleted]
>
> > >Cyberpunk and industrial are technology oriented, which accords
>>more with the biases of men than those of women.
>
>Well, this is the kind of thing I was afraid people would say.  I think in
>the _mainstream_ culture women are supposedly discouraged by technology
>but in Industrial we examine the "fringes" of technology.  It still
>suprises me that given such an alternative base women are still
>discouraged from entering. >

Listen, where do you think all those "cyberpunks" and other denizens of
Industrial Culture come from? Mars?  Whether we like it or not, we all
have been inundated with the stereotypesand oppressions of society, no
matter how logically based or "alternative" our beliefs.  We can
actually, philosophically and rationally "believe" in equality for
all women and lash out at the treatment of women as helpless sex
objects, yet we are still pelted continously with misogynistic
movies, and a continuous barrage of wasteful advertisements whose
sole purpose is to amplify common stereotypes to reach the greatest
audience to sell the most product.  Because of society's enormous pressure for
us to "conform", even blatant
nonconformism becomes relative; those who profess to be "alternative"
actually do so for the sake of conformity.

And, contrary to your beliefs, the "cyberdustrial" culture is by no means
immune to this cosmic radiation of popular confomist stereotypes.
Every time I see Al Jourgenson get off on his macho tip,  I begin to wonder...
"are these people really "alternative"???

And about cyberpunk - you know what outsiders think is really "cyberpunk"?
Arnold Schwarzenegger movies.

> >
>Note that I am not accusing industrial/cyberculture of discriminating
>against women in any way.  I personally don't know of any examples.  I
>just want to know how exactly less women enter the scene than you'd think
>there would be (and no, I don't believe in _innate_ differences)
>
>Geoff Allen
>


Well, maybe this statement would have been valid 15 years ago, but
"cyberdustrial" culture has mixed too much with the mainstream to retain
the kind of validity you continue to ascribe to it.  I think you will
discover that there still is a "hardcore" bunch involved with the
cyberculture, and that also many of these _are_ women.

My Opinions....
P H I L  B A N C R O F T

Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk,alt.industrial
From: "AJ Violette" <violett@peach.ucs.indiana.edu>
Subject: Re: Perhaps we have forgotten the teachings of Jesus
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 23:59:06 -0500

In article <1992Nov10.005816.25762@sserve.cc.adfa.oz.au> braca2@cspyr1.cs.adfa.oz.au (BRAY CHRISTOPHER) writes:
>Everyone on this net is an individual, mostly, and sure Christianity will
>work for some of them.  But it didnt for me, in christianity I see Ugliness,
>Deviance and Delinquency.
>
>I see it everywhere and I believe that it is important.

I agree.  I just read Thomas Paine's "The Age of Reason" which gives many
examples of Christianity's deviance, ugliness, and sexist teachings.  Not
to mention the Bible's many inconsistencies.  Although it is not CP, I highly
recommend it.

Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
From: tmaddox@netcom.com (Tom Maddox)
Subject: Re: William Gibson
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 01:49:53 GMT

In article <1992Nov9.011305.16543@sserve.cc.adfa.oz.au> braca2@cspyr1.cs.adfa.oz.au (BRAY CHRISTOPHER) writes:
>I believe (and I may be wrong) that ono-sendai is Tom Maddox's, I 
>understand that Tom gave permission to WG to use some of his names.
>Correct me if I am wrong please.

	Okay--

	Ono-Sendai is Gibson's, so far as I remember.

	The names in _Neuromancer_ that came from me are:  ICE, Hosaka, and
Jerry Quine.  


-- 
				Tom Maddox
		    	    tmaddox@netcom.com
		"The Reptoids eat humans like we eat chickens."
				Alex Alexander
Xref: sparky alt.cyberpunk:5590 alt.industrial:654
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk,alt.industrial
Subject: Re: Women in CP/Industrial Culture?
From: phutter@cardinal.sc107.wesleyan.edu (PATRICK HUTTER)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 17:54:08 GMT
Organization: Wesleyan University, Middletown, CT USA

>Ouch - insert a big huge 'F' here for comprehension. You failed. Jesus
>Christ, did you ever misinterpret my post.

>For the make-up test: just read this again and report back. I really
>hope you'll do better next time...

>>>Cyberpunk and industrial music both generally include very little
>>>emotion - and what emotion there is is usually channeled into your
>>>standard macho hate vibes. Women, in general, are quite less inhibited
>>>about expressing themselves emotionally. Therefore - it's quite
>>>naturally that something as bleak as most industrial music and cp will
>>>alienate most gals out there. CP and industrial therefore become
>>>predominiately male, since their context is male-oriented.

Well, at least you are wrong on one point: There are a lot of women in 
CyberCulture. BTW, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. I think I was 
replying to another post that someone had scribbled, quoted yours, and got 
very confused. However, as I said before: CP and Industrial DOES have a lot 
of women.

							Greetings,

							Macbeth
>Joshua Houk>-- >houk@athena.cs.uga.edu * email for indie-list info!>Heaven 
sucks unless you're dead.>   - Sleepyhead
From: bladex@wixer.cactus.org (David Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: Wanted: Essays/etc. on sexism in Cyberpunk
Date: 8 Nov 92 02:01:21 GMT
Organization: Real/Time Communications

In article <1992Nov7.143313.8686@ac.dal.ca> rclarke@ac.dal.ca writes:
>Could anyone please tell me where I could find/get essays/articles/pappers
>on saxism in cyberpunk?  I have a feminist friend who always calls me a sexist

>pig because I happened to have read a few cyberpunk books.  I have only read
>Gibson's works so I don't have enough expirence to dis/agre with my friend. So

>if any one has a file to email/ a ftp site name / or just wants to do a quikie

>up, I'd really apreciate it!
>--
>Ethan Clarke
>---
>RClarke@AC.DAL.CA
>


If she calls you a "sexist pig" simply because you've read a couple of
books, then I have to doubt how much strength should be placed in the word
friend.

What evidence does she provide to cyberpunk being sexist?  Look at how many
strong, independent, competent heroines exist, Molly from Neuromancer being a-
1.  There are no c-punk bimbos.

Unless someone can provide some evidence/examples of c-punk being "sexist" I
don't see how you can take her claim seriously.

-- 
  bladex@wixer.cactus.org           |              Cyberlicious Software
 "I think cyberpunk is the latest attempt by American hipsters to escape
the squalid intellectual environment that surrounds them.  This is not a
bad goal."  Karl Myers, Talking Raven 
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk,alt.industrial,alt.postmodern
From: toad@nmt.edu (Tod Landis)
Subject: Re: A Few Questions about Singularity
Organization: Electrical Eng. Dept. - New Mexico Tech
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1992 21:46:57 GMT

In article <Bx6211.6G7@cda.mrs.umn.edu> carlsoje@cda.mrs.umn.edu (Joel E. Carlson 1625773) writes:
>In article <1992Nov2.174544.26978@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> pbancrof@nyx.cs.du.edu (Phil Bancroft) writes:
>
>Your absolutly correct, until the general populace has access to a
>free-flow of information.  Power will remain controlled at the top in
>monolithic corporate (national, or buisness) entities.  In order for a
>vast and sweeping change of consiousness we need free information.  Then
>and only then will we see a quantum leap in the evolution of mankind.
>The cyberpunk leap of singularity will become an obvious reality for
>all. 

The problem with the free-flow of information is its assimilation. How
much of this great net information do you assimilate? I barely scracth
the surface and only in areas of predefined interests. So I see the 
common man using prefabricated news filters to gather and present the 
inflowing information to him(not unlike what we do with threads, no?).
And who is going to build and market these filters? 

Of course, personal expreince is no bench mark, ask any anti-Freudian.

>Information is the means, power the end.
nah, 
 Style is the game we play
     Death, the price we pay

Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk.movement
From: ggoebel@sun1.ruf.uni-freiburg.de (Garrett Goebel)
Subject: this newsgroup
Summary: What is it?
Keywords: what is it?
Organization: Rechenzentrum der Universitaet Freiburg, Deutschland
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 14:25:09 GMT

what is this newsgroup for?

ggoebel

-- 
Garrett Goebel,8811500 <ggoebel@sun1.ruf.uni-freiburg.de>

"it is necessary for a prince, who wishes to maintain himself, to learn how 
not to be good and to use this knowledge and not use it, according to the
From: led@korova.freeside.com (Led Zeppelin)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk.movement
Subject: Re: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 92 20:56:14 CST
Organization: VHF void tube of the mind (713) 492-2783

ganesha@engin.umich.edu (khurt lef williams) writes:

> 	Does anyone know the address or phone number of the Electronic Frontier Foun
> 
> 					Khurt
> 
> 

Yeah ... ftp: ftp.eff.org

--
                          the korova milkbar
             land of the CHEEZ          home of the WHOPPER
                             713-492-2783
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk.movement
From: rau@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Drivvt)
Subject: Re: this newsgroup
Keywords: what is it?  "It's it!" - FNM
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 05:48:35 GMT

In article <1992Nov11.142509.5771@sun1.ruf.uni-freiburg.de> ggoebel@sun1.ruf.uni-freiburg.de (Garrett Goebel) writes:
>what is this newsgroup for?

Spinning in the flotsam of the fates, dancing amidst the stars, walking through
the artificial infinity of cyberspace, ripping across the hallucinogenic back
of a pink trout as it flips through a sedan parked beneath a green tree on
Broadway in New York as the blue light of a red sun melts the pavement.  It's
for the advocacy (whoops!  better not say advocacy.  It might draw rabid
Amigoids :) of the attitudes, etiquette (or lack thereof), and technology of
cyberpunk, kick in the head, fuck the torpedos crack their damn computer.
-- 
Drivvt Daermon N'a'shezbaernon (Drow)   /\ Utah Saints? You mean Mormons, right?
Menzoberranzan  Computer  Networking /\/' \ Live for CPU time, die for CPU time.
rau@ucsu.colorado.edu               /' \'' \ Where would I be without IBM? InSoc
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ n''''' \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
From: etheredg@iugate.ucs.indiana.edu (Wil Etheredge)
Subject: CyberHero
Followup-To: alt.cyberpunk
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 20:47:54 GMT

I just finished reading the CyberHero rules (made by Hero Games).
I was wondering if there were some comments out there about it.

 --------------------------------------------------------------------------
(  \\  /\  //             (    Mailing Address:                           
)
 )  \\//\\// il Etheredge  )       Vax -  etheredg@aqua.ucs.indiana.edu   (
(    \/  \/               (        Unix - etheredg@silver.ucs.indiana.edu 
)
 --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Organization: Masters student, Urban and Public Affairs, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 00:00:15 -0500 
From: Scott Gregory <wg2b+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: nyx.du.edu

Excerpts from netnews.alt.cyberpunk: 9-Nov-92 Re: nyx.du.edu by
Tim@hardy.u.washington.e 
> >    O.K., I am now starting to really believe the heretofore mentioned
> >theory that the people at nyx.du.edu are largely one person trying to
> >pull our collective legs.  We've got preachers & militant feminists,
> >we've got all kinds of extremist crazies popping up from
> >nowhere....oops, not nowhere --nyx.du.edu.
> >
> >    Any of you real people who use this machine ever seen any of
these folks?
>  
> >
> >-Scott
> >
>  
> Well I wouldn't say that they are all one person because there are people who
> post rational things from this site. The problem is that it allows free acces
> to ANYONE - therefore someone could probably get multiple accounts and act
> like an imature 5th grader if they wished.

    Right, that's why I sent out the call for "real people" to answer
this.  I wouldn't be surprised if sgreever and paula the manbasher are
one person, however.  They are such one-dimensional caricatures that
they don't seem exactly human.

    I think Andy Hawks uses that node.  What about it Andy? These people
alive, or just a few bored people from Claremont or wherever?

-Scott

Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk,alt.industrial,alt.sex,alt.sex.bondage
From: mimir@stein.u.washington.edu (Al Billings)
Subject: Re: Ye Golden Rule
Organization: The Friends of Loki Society
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 06:47:17 GMT

In article <1992Nov12.154435.8398@crash> malloy@crash.cts.com (Sean Malloy) writes:
>In article <3TL2TB4w165w@entropy.mcds.com> morpheus@entropy.mcds.com (morpheus) writes:
>>Stuart Finkelstein <sf20+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>>> How about this? (Although its rather noncommittal...)
>>> "Do not unto others as you would not have them do unto you."
>
>>How about just "Do as thou wilt."?    ;-)
>
>If you're going to use that quote, don't grab part of it out of context,
>use the whole thing:
>
>  "An it harm none, do what thou wilt be the whole of the law."

 BZZT! Thank you for playing.

 The Wiccan Rede is "An it harm none, do what you will."

 The quote that you are miscorrecting above is from the Book of the Law
(Liber AL) which predates the Wiccan Rede by a bit (since you can't show
evidence of the Wiccan Rede that is verifiable before the publication of
High Magic's Aid). What you are quoting is a nasty conglomeration of the
two that I've seen used by a few traditions of Wicca. It is not "correct"
since the quote you are correcting is the original, modern, version.

Wassail,
Al

=============================================================================
|     O     |  Hammar I COMPUTER, Helga Ve Theta Ok Hald Vordh!             |
|    /|\    |                                                               |
|   O-O-O   |  "Praise the day in the evening,      mimir@u.washington.edu  |
|   |\|/|   |   a torch when it is burned,          Anthropology Undergrad  |
|   | O |   |   a sword when it is tried,           Admin for Troth-L       |
|   |/|\|   |   a maid when married,                System operator of      |
|   O-O-O   |   ice when crossed,                     The Sacred Grove BBS  |
|    \|/    |   ale when drunk."                      (206)634-1980 V.32    |
|     O     |                  - Havamal, verse 81                          |
=============================================================================