Organization: Queen's University at Kingston
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 00:46:56 EST
From: Andy <2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.canada,can.politics
Subject: Re: Anti-Nazi Rally
 <1993Jan23.211753.26315@julian.uwo.ca> <1993Jan23.225015.25940@athena.mit.edu>
 <1993Jan24.045308.23714@julian.uwo.ca>

In article <1993Jan24.045308.23714@julian.uwo.ca>, larocqu@gaul.csd.uwo.ca (JOHN
LAROCQUE) says:
>
>In article <1993Jan23.225015.25940@athena.mit.edu> cmk@athena.mit.edu (CharlesM
>Kozierok) writes:
>
>>you're right. whenever i find out a neo-Nazi group is going to court,
>>the first thing i assume is that it is because of a parking ticket.
>
>>your implication is that this group is somehow being persecuted or something.
>>do you have information on the matter? if so, would you please
>>share it with the rest of the class?
>
>No. My impliciation is that neo-nazis LIKE being a persecuted class. Really.
>The one thing they fear is an open society. When we specifically legislate
>against their ilk we are LEGITIMIZING their contention that
>society is against them (true but....) and that they are being persecuted.
>In a certain sense WE are turning the tables. Instead of them persecuting
>us (and minorities etc), they contend we are persecuting them, and that
>promotes their cause as martyrs instead of relegating them to the fringe
>which is where they will dry up and blow away.
>
>>then don't go. but i can't possibly see anything wrong with those
>>who value peace and freedom expressing such to whomever will listen.
>
>People who believe in freedom don't need to cower behind laws to
>spread their message, which is what many of our laws do pertaining
>to hate literature, treason, drug infomation etc. How often do you
>see these people saying "If only there were a law against them...",
>spoken just like a National Socialist. First they went after the
>Neo Nazis, then they went after the pornographers, then they went
>after the prostitutes and the drug dealers and the drug users. Then
>they went after those with "wrong values" and all those who didn't
>fit their mold. And I stood by. And then they went after me.
>An open society permits people to be themselves, no matter how
>repulsive they may be.
>
>>spoken like a true ostrich. scary how even Hitler couldn't change
>>this idiotic sentiment.
>
>Hitler was a LEADER which people wanted (or were forced) to follow,
>with ONE IDEA to impose in the PEOPLE. And ethnic hatred was just
>one of many ideas in their bag. Don't forget the many legitimate
>grievances of which Hitler was the only one to address (re Versailles
>treaty). He was a "man of the people", just like all the phony populists
>today (Ross Perot or Preston Manning).
>
>It was Arthur C Clarke who said that the
>philosophy of mass obedience leads to Auschwitz. We are either sheep
>to be led to the slaughter at the whim of a leader or philosophy,
>or we are free men and women. There is NO in between and NO compromise.
>

THINK! What Clarke is saying is not that we should respond to fascism by
apathy as you infer but by resistence. Do you really think he would echo
your sentiments that ignoring the Nazis would have led to no Holocaust, it
seems he is saying quite the opposite, the ridiculous part is that
YOU CAN'T EVEN SEE THAT!!

>>this happened recently in the states, where a KKK rally was outnumbered
>>100-to-1. the grand dragon was shouted down by 5,000 anti-KKK protestors.
>>the news story ended up being more about the huge turn-out of the counter-
>>rally than about the rally itself. damn effective, i'd say.
>
>And I will say this. Shouting them down will not shut them up. Let them
>be forced out into the open so we can see their faces and their placards
>and their slogans. Let us know them and laugh at them, instead of forcing
>them back underground where we are more likely to fear them in the future.

And you suggest ignoring them will bring them out into the open, WRONG!
Challenging them will do that, ie doing the opposite of what you suggest.
Again, THINK!!

>
>A good example of this is some City Hall who set up a Jewish religious
>symbol in the public square. The KKK asked for and got a cross set up
>in the square, thanks to the court system. What happened... people tore
>down the cross and they kept putting back new crosses. What can , for example,
>an honest Christian conclude when they see that the only people willing
>to hoist a cross is the KKK and that the people who oppose the cross also
>oppose the KKK. Some people will (falsely) conclude that it is the KKK
>which is being unjustifiably persecuted and that the KKK stands up for
>Christian values (which they do not), just because of that incident.
>
>Like I said, we are turning the tables on them, and recruting more members
>for them then if we didn't give them the attention they obviously crave.
>Take away their claims of persecution.
>of persecution and they have nothing left in their bag. Nada. Nihil.

Ignore them, let them speak unchallenged and there is nothing to stand in
there way.

>Or you can make them heroes.
>
>>i might be incorrect, but i can't seem to remember even one reasonable
>>thing ever coming from this account. i see lots of attacks, vitriol
>>and bitterness, and little which balances it. so are you just angry
>>with the whole world?
>
>Gee. That's a nice thing to say. I remember really violent debates with
>you and several of your friends here about objectivism. I suppose they were
>perfectly reasonable and that justified having 90% of this purely
>theoretical discourse being dumped in can.politics. Yeah, that's
>reasonable. Yeah that's OK. But when I post once or twice, that's
>perfectly UNREASONABLE. How "objective" of you. (Randroid!)
>
>As for the line about being angry with the whole world, that's not
>entirely true. Look up Amrose Bierce's definition of a cynic: one
>who knows what life is really about. Or my own - your are born and
>you die. No God. No afterlife. No values. Nothing except the skin
>on your own back and the life that you make for yourself. Nothing
>reminds you more about what life is about then attending funerals,
>especially family ones. Here you see the worst hypocrisy from the
>so called clerics who knew nothing about the dead yet talk about
>those pastures in the sky, while below them is the real face of death,
>a bleached white corpse that tells you that your day will come.
>
>>what is this "marshall law" and why do you want it?
>
>Actually it is this really great comic book satire that Marvel Comics
>Company put out in the mid-80's. A parody of the macho superhero
>Rambo culture that defined that period of history and of US militarism.
>In one issue, veterans of the wars were resurrected from the dead and
>they siglehandedly went after the patriotic superheroes (Captain America)
>who sent them to the slaughter yet claimed the glory (aka the Generals).
>Great satire in the British tradition. Oh, and Marshall Law is the
>lead character who goes after the Superheros, who represent the
>establishment and its values (aka the Politicians), people with
>power over others. In this series, Marshall Law liquidates as many of them
>as he can.
>
>Just like in the 70's there was an underground comic book called
>Trash Man. Just an ordinary joe who would go to a banquet full of
>rich powerful people and just waste them all. Kind of like GI Joe for the
>left wing crowd. Fry your brain and rent out Luis Bunuel's _The
>Exterminating Angel_ (FYI Luis is one of the masters of film and cinema).
>
>Makes you think about grade school all over again. How many assemblies
>were wasted on government propaganda or causes? They bring in the police
>to tell us about law and order or drugs. Or they would show us a film about
>the
>evils of South Africa or the benefits of Third World Aid. Or the
>1982 Patriation where we were supposed to glory now that the constituion
>came home. That's called brainwashing.
>
>Or all the Remembrance Day
>ceremonies where the Elders would come up to you and claim that
>ALL of Canada's war dead gave you the freedom you have today. What
>an atrocious claim. Especially after the so-called Gulf war showed
>our real intentions. Hey, the enemy is still around. Nice job guys.
>Turns out our war dead wasted eachother with FRIENDLY FIRE. Real
>heroes. Or all the ex-Nazis we used to fight communism or send
>people into space. Nice job guys. Real Heroes. Or the generals who
>sent our troops into Dieppe knowing they would die. Real Heroes. Or
>Bomber Harris bombing civilian targes (a la Dresden) instead of
>military targets (the Rheinland). Real Heroes. People who wage wars
>are WAR CRIMINALS not WAR HEROES. And the soldiers
>are just pawns in their deadly game.
>
>Every remembrance day I remember the hundreds of thousands of young
>men who were sent to die in the trenches to die - for nothing. No,
>war is not for heroes. Only for fools forced to fight for causes that
>were never ours to begin with. And the only people who benefit are
>those who sent us into battle. Remeber the crippled soldier brought
>home from Vietnam - spat upon by the citizens, forgotton by the
>generals and ignored by the politicians. Be all you that can be.
>
>>and why do you want to drive nails into messiahs?
>
>Why not? Who led the people like sheep to the slaughter? The martyrs,
>the saviours, the leaders of history. The problem with people is they
>will nominate someone else to solve their problems instead of getting
>down to work on it by themselves. They FEAR the consequences of true
>liberty. Thus the need for politicians and laws. And any Hitler-wannabe
>who stands up and says - "Look, I can help" deserves to be taken down
>from his soap box and safely dealt with so he never does that again.
>
>>charles
>
>
>--
>***FEAR*AND*LOATHING**FEAR*AND*LOATHING**FEAR*AND*LOATHING**FEAR*AND*LOATHING*
>*
>**  John LaRocque         **   "If you're the new messiah.. I'm going to be
>**
>**  marshall.law@uwo.ca   **   the one to drive in the nails"  MARSHALL LAW
>**
>***FEAR*AND*LOATHING**FEAR*AND*LOATHING**FEAR*AND*LOATHING**FEAR*AND*LOATHING*
>*
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish