HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 12:25:09 EDT
From:         "Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support,
              x8425" <tillman@SWDEV.SI.COM>
Subject:      RE: Vassula Files

Someone (I don't remember who) posted the following:

>I have some files from Vassula Ryden that relate also to Fatima.
>One is even an address she gave to the World Council of Churches
>meeting in Europe last January. (lest you wonder if she is a
>fanatic with no reasonable audience)

>If anyone would like to read these I'd be happy to mail them out.
>I haven't gotten around to getting permission to publicly post
>them so would prefer to send them privately.

What is wrong with this offer?

I'd say that if this person does not have permission to post this publically, it
is equally immoral to mail it privately.  What's the difference?  It would still
be replicating something for which you do not have permission.  One of the
people to whom it would be sent might not realize it shouldn't be posted
publically and do so.

Please do not mail material you have no permission to reproduce publically.

-----------------------------+--------------------------------
 Brian Tillman               | Internet: tillman@swdev.si.com
 Smiths Industries, Inc.     |           tillman_brian@si.com
 4141 Eastern Ave., MS129    | Hey, I said this stuff myself.
 Grand Rapids, MI 49518-8727 | My company has no part in it.
-----------------------------+--------------------------------
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Organization: The American University
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Sat, 3 Oct 1992 01:18:18 EDT
From:         Jim McIntosh <JIM@AMERICAN.EDU>
Subject:      Re: October 2 - Feast of the Guardian Angels

On Thu, 1 Oct 1992 13:22:07 EDT <catholic@DRAGON.COM> said:
>Tomorrow is the Feast of the Guardian Angels.  Sometimes we forget the
>beautiful place the angels hold in God's plan for our salvation.  Let's
>remember them on this day as we ask them to pray with us in praise and
>thanksgiving to the Lord Jesus.

And today, October third, is the Transitus... the day Franciscans around
the world remember the death of St. Francis of Assisi on this day in
1226. Tomorrow, October fourth, is Francis's feast day.

If you're interested in Francis, call a local friary or convent and find
out if they'll be a Transitus in your area. It's a fairly short service
in which Fancics's death is recounted. It's typically followed by a party
or reception. All are welcome.

Jim McIntosh SFO (jim@american.edu)
The American University
Washington DC 20016-8019 USA
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Date:         Mon, 5 Oct 1992 18:17:58 PDT
From:         FRANK@125LAW1.LAW.UCLA.EDU
Subject:      Re: Secrets of Fatima

> > Has everyone heard about the Korean Pastor in California who
> >says the end of the world will start on Oct. 28?  What are your opinions?
> >
>
> i say that would be great.  it would sure solve many of my and our current
> problems.  all we need is to repent now (we should anyway).


    This Pastor and his flock were spotlighted on CNN this past
weekend.  There was some concern among the flock that if the rapture
doesn't come that something along the lines of Jonestown could happen
again.  So faithful to the Pastor are his followers.  Apparently he
(the pastor) has changed the date of the rapture three times.  The
new date is, I believe, the 24th of October.

    Should we be ready?  Yes.  But not because this pastor or that
priest says so.  We should be ready because Christ says so.  We do
not know when He will come again but we should be prepared.

    Frank
From: nkraft@BKHOUSE.CTS.COM (Norman Kraft)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: pantheism vs panentheism
Date: 5 Oct 92 17:59:22 GMT
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              at Oct 4, 92 9:41 am

> Gordon raised the question of God's omnipresence in all of creation being
> pantheism-   My understanding is that is we consider creation or any part of
 it
> as God it is pantheism but seeing the presence of God in all of creation is
> panentheism.  Example- the tree is God vs the glory of the tree in autumnal
> color is a reflection of the glory of God. I don't think
> that saying we are in God and God is in all is saying we are God.
> Nancy

There are basically two ways to view God's presence in all things. The
first is the belief that God *is* all things, or that all things are God,
and that all things taken together consititute God. This is pantheism. The
second is the belief that God is *present* in all things, though all
things taken together still do not add up to God, who is yet beyond this
presence in all of creation. This is panentheism, the belief that divinity
permeates all things. Pantheism worships all things as God, panentheism
worships God in all things.

Pantheism is, for the most part, antithetical to Christianity, but
panentheism is entirely orthodox and very close to what St. Francis of
Assisi lived and taught. More to the point, panentheism encourages a
different view of God and God's place in our lives. The theistic
God is a distant, judging, fearful sky god. The panentheistic
God is within us, with us, and ever-present in all aspects of our lives
and our interactions with the world.

When I see a beautiful expanse of stars on a clear and cold desert night,
I know that this is a part of the glory of God revealed in my life, as is
the desert floor and each of the small desert plants at my feet. I can
feel the presence of God in the wonder of creation, know that God is close
to me, within me, connected to the earth, and filling me with warm love
for God and God's presence in all people and all things. In these moments,
I can truly understand why Jesus referred to his Father in heaven with the
tender and familiar "abba".

Norm.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Norman Kraft, Senior Partner          INET : nkraft@bkhouse.cts.com
Argus Computing & Multimedia          UUCP : ucsd!crash!bkhouse!nkraft
San Diego, CA                         GENIE: N.KRAFT3
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1992 07:34:25 -0500
From:         "(Joel Neisen)" <joel@MSC.EDU>
Subject:      Re; Rosary (was mysticism)

> Is there anyone on the list who prays the rosary? If so, can you explain
> what you're doing? Do you consider each word of the prayers you are
> saying, or do you use the rosary as a tool for mediatation?
I have prayed the rosary (on my own) for nearly 20 years, and no
I don't consider each word of the prayers that I am saying, however,
I do not use it as a "mind lcearing mantra" either.

I do have to say that in the last 20 years the importance of the rosary
in my prayer has greatly increased after I heard a talk by
Fr. Ken Roberts (on EWTN I think) that a rosary without the mysteries
is incomplete.  That is the rosary is a prayerful mediation on the
mysteries of Christ (you know, the Joyful, Sorrowful and Glorious).

Thus even in this sense, I do not use free-association, etc. but the meditation
is on the events of Jesus' life and my hope in Jesus for the life to come.
Jesus, and necessarily being Christ-like is the focal point of
my use of the rosary.

[Somewhat unrelated history of the rosary which the moderator may
remove at their discretion]
"God's Word Today" of Oct 1990 (I don't recall the year for sure)
had a very nice background of the rosary.  In older times, the scholars
who had time and inclination would recite the 150 Psalms each day
as part of their devotion.  Some would use the practise of using 150
stones and a pouch to 'count' as they went along.
At some point in time the stones became beads and were put in a string
which was more convenient that the pouch.

Simple prayers (the Hail Mary, etc.) replaced the Psalms for the
faithful who were illiterate or unscholarly (or perhaps didn't have
a good memory) and thus the full rosary contains 150 Hail Mary's
corresponding to the 150 Psalms.

The Rosary got its moderm form (more or less) at the time of the
visions to Dominic (?).

Joel Neisen				 joel@msc.edu
Minnesota Supercomputer Center		"Mock not the worn cloak"
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Sat, 3 Oct 1992 14:52:12 EDT
From:         "Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support,
              x8425" <tillman@SWDEV.SI.COM>
Subject:      RE: Secrets of Fatima

Well, since this is supposed to happen in the last half of the 20th century, I
guess we have only nine more years to wait!

-----------------------------+--------------------------------
 Brian Tillman               | Internet: tillman@swdev.si.com
 Smiths Industries, Inc.     |           tillman_brian@si.com
 4141 Eastern Ave., MS129    | Hey, I said this stuff myself.
 Grand Rapids, MI 49518-8727 | My company has no part in it.
-----------------------------+--------------------------------
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Mon, 5 Oct 1992 16:00:09 EDT
From:         "Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support,
              x8425" <tillman@SWDEV.SI.COM>
Subject:      RE: re:women as priests

Nancy, be fair to Eric.  He's not the only one to continue this topic.  I have
certainly contributed to its continuation, as have several others.  Are you
asking all of us to drop the matter, including those who share your opinion?

-----------------------------+--------------------------------
 Brian Tillman               | Internet: tillman@swdev.si.com
 Smiths Industries, Inc.     |           tillman_brian@si.com
 4141 Eastern Ave., MS129    | Hey, I said this stuff myself.
 Grand Rapids, MI 49518-8727 | My company has no part in it.
-----------------------------+--------------------------------
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: jocallag@vyasa.helios.nd.edu (john ocallaghan)
Subject: Re:      fasting
Organization: OUC, University of Notre Dame
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 22:06:25 GMT

In article <CATHOLIC%92100513064236@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU> The Banshee <SUTTON_R_1@PRIME1.LANCASHIRE-POLY.AC.UK> writes:
>(From the banshee   )
>
>Dear all,
>Yes it's me again.
>Does anyone out there fast on a regular basis?
>If so can you advise on how best to go about it as I find
>it hard.  Thank you in advance.
>God bless,
>Rebecca
Dear Rebecca,
Start out slow, and do not overburden yourself.  Change your routine.  Delay
eating for half an hour on one day of the week.  If you do not eat at
regular times, then it can be just as much a sacrifice as fasting to impose an
order upon your eating, and eat at regular times.  Once you eat at regular times,delay on meal once a weak.  Then perhaps after a while, delay it even longer.
Finally give up that meal.  But remember two things:
1) Don't do it unless you understand why the Church thinks it is good, though only required at certain times of the year and before Mass.  Any fasting over
and above what the Church requires may be good, but is not required.
2) If you are doing it without spritual direction, don't overburden yourself.
There is very great spiritual danger to undirected asceticism.
Peace
John
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: bdboyle@erenj.com (Bryan D. Boyle)
Subject: Re: Altar girls; Ecumenism, Tolerance and the Truth
Organization: Exxon Research and Engineering Co., NJ
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 01:55:23 GMT

In article <CATHOLIC%92092709344195@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU> Jim McIntosh <JIM@AMERICAN.EDU> writes:
>On Sun, 27 Sep 1992 13:10:21 GMT (Dennis L Schenkel) said:
>>Two recent postings by Steve Otlowski contain common misunderstandings which I
>>would like to help clear up...
>
>Well, since we're clearing things up...   :-)
>
>>The American Church has expressly forbidden it and it only occurs in places
>>where pastors are ignoring their vow of obedience to their bishops.
>
>Only members of religious orders take VOWS of obedience. Diocesan priests
>do not take vows. Most pastors are diocesan priests.
>
Therefore, diocesean priests don't have to obey their bishops?  Excuse
me?  Did I get that right?  According to the Catholic Encyclopaedia,
Obedience is defined as action at the behest of or assent to a
legitimate request from an authentic authority.  The Roman Catholic
Church does not have migratory or unattached clergy: each member of the
clergy that is a diocesean priest is responsible directly to his bishop,
who is the authority and authentic teacher for his bounded territory.
Since the pastor
 and auxiliary priests derive their authority solely from the bishop, 
it is ultimately the Bishop of the Diocese who is responsible for the
correct exercise of eccleastical power.  

The revised Code states (paraphrased, from same referenced source..) All
members of the religious take vows to observe the evangelical counsels
of poverty, chastity, and obedience.  

Bryan D. Boyle
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: jdd@db.toronto.edu (John DiMarco)
Subject: Sin (was Re: sex)
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Toronto
Date: 6 Oct 92 22:54:47 GMT

v5875bza@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Michael M Gorman Jr) writes:
>In article <1992Oct01.131949.37501@watson.ibm.com>, dmczap@wookie.cambridge.ibm.com writes...
>>At an engaged encounter, it seemed that the priest indicated the church
>>was adamantly against pre-marital sex, yet "understood" if a couple decided
>>to use contraceptives other than natural family planning. 
>> 
>>Have you experienced this "soft rule/hard rule" attitude in the RC church?

>I too have noticed this soft/hard business.  I think that it is a case
>of Church discipline getting lax.  Behaving a certain way is a necessary
>(but not sufficient!) condition of being a Catholic.  There is a difference
>between doing wrong, even habitually, while knowing that it's wrong and
>trying to do better, on the one hand, and doing it with a clear conscience
>and being puzzled that some people think it's wrong, on the other.  In other
>words, I'd say that many young people in the Church today, at least in
>N America, have  n o  p r o b l e m  ignoring Church teachings on sexual
>ethics.  They aren't trying and failing, they aren't trying.  And this 
>hard/soft business makes it worse.  

I agree with you. 

However, it is not intrinsically wrong to recognize that a particular thing 
is difficult, and to understand why someone would fail to do it properly. 
In this sense, the priest's message as described above is not necessarily
a symptom of laxity.

The problem arises when someone's understanding of the difficulty of a thing 
leads to absolving someone from the duty to do it properly. This is actually
an act of passing judgment on someone, and unjust judgment at that, because it 
automatically acquits the person from sin merely on the basis that not 
sinning is difficult. It is God's business, not ours, to decide the culpability
of someone who does something wrong, and no human being, whether clergy or
lay, has the right to tell someone that something is ever "okay" for them when 
God has said it is wrong for everybody!

>Comments are invited on this!  How do we draw the line between being
>forgiving and open, on the one hand, and overly tolerant, on the other?

How about zero tolerance for sin, loving forgiveness and help for the sinner?
Note that forgiveness implies recognition (not denial!) of the sin and its 
seriousness. If we recognize that somebody has a particular problem with 
some sin, our duty is to make a special effort to help them to avoid it,
not to tell them that it's okay. If we really believe sin is a bad thing, 
it is an act of hatred, not of love, to encourage someone to stop struggling
with it. 

God bless,

John
--
John DiMarco                                              jdd@cdf.toronto.edu
Computing Disciplines Facility Systems Manager            jdd@cdf.utoronto.ca
University of Toronto                                     EA201B,(416)978-1928
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Fri, 2 Oct 1992 10:12:31 EDT
From:         "Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support,
              x8425" <tillman@SWDEV.SI.COM>
Subject:      Re: pre Vat II?

Ernest (ern@unix.cis.pitt.edu) writes:

>                            I'd much rather go to a Catholic church
>without "warmth" and without a great teaching ministry than any non-Catholic
>church because, even if I only ever know the most basic truths of my Faith,
>JESUS IS THERE, TRULY PRESENT IN BODY, GIVING HIM SELF UP FOR MY SINS!  Nothing
>is better than this and nothing is more important, no matter how appealing.

Judging from this statement, I'd infer that you do not believe the Christ is
omni-present in all creation and that He did not die for our sins once for all.
Somehow, this just doesn't jibe with Chritianity as I know it.

-----------------------------+--------------------------------
 Brian Tillman               | Internet: tillman@swdev.si.com
 Smiths Industries, Inc.     |           tillman_brian@si.com
 4141 Eastern Ave., MS129    | Hey, I said this stuff myself.
 Grand Rapids, MI 49518-8727 | My company has no part in it.
-----------------------------+--------------------------------
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Sun, 27 Sep 1992 12:05:14 -0500
From:         Amanda Walker <amanda@INTERCON.COM>
Subject:      Re: Kneeling in church (how long a tradition?)

> Priests and bishops who remove kneelers from the churches are doing so
> because they've lost the Faith; they have become Protestants.  There's
> really no other reason.

Fascinating.  All of the Anglican churches I've ever been a member of have
had kneelers, and we don't hold hands during the Lord's Prayer.  Does this
mean that Anglicans are keeping the faith?  [Yes, this could be seen as a
trick question...]

Seems to me we're having some confusion over form vs. content here.


Peace,

Amanda Walker
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: bobv@spike.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Bob von Buelow)
Subject: Re: Prayer request
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 14:45:17 GMT

"(Edward J. Branley)" <elendil@MINTIR.NEW-ORLEANS.LA.US> writes:
i> ...
>while.  Eleven months to get there is a long time.  I don't know how you guys
>find the patience to wait that long to see the fruits of your labors.


Well, the bi-weekly paychecks help a bit.  :-)

Bob

Actually it's a lot of fun learning about spacecraft, how they work, and
about the destination itself, when we get in orbit around another
heavenly (ObReligious touch) body.

--
Bob von Buelow             Mars Observer Planning and Sequencing Element
bobv@spike.jpl.nasa.gov          - standard disclaimers apply -
From: gorman@acsu.buffalo.edu (Anne-Marie K. Gorman)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: A joke
Date: 6 Oct 92 16:35:11 GMT
Organization: UB


The Holy Family are at home in Nazareth, and they receive three visitors:
a Franciscan, a Benedictine, and a Jesuit.  The Franciscan dances in, 
kisses the Child, and offers Him a flower picked from the meadows.  The
Benedictine processes in, bows reverently to the Child, and offers Him
a beautifully decorated chalice.  The Jesuit bustles in and says, "Madam,
about your son's education...."


Anne-Marie "Some of my best friends were educated by Jesuits" Gorman
-- 
===============================================================================
Anne-Marie K. Gorman          Sophie and Teresa (9 months old) are standing and
Human factors/ergonomics      cruising!  Time flies twice as fast when you're
University at Buffalo         having twice as much fun.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: collison@scsuc.ctstateu.edu (COLLISON,STEVEN)
Subject: Re: Not about women priests, it's about changing rules
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Southern Connecticut State University - Computer Center
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 17:17:00 GMT

In article <1992Oct6.153315.10024@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov>, bobv@spike.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Bob von Buelow) writes...
>collison@scsuc.ctstateu.edu (COLLISON,STEVEN) writes:
>>Listen to Eric. He is correct in saying that women cannot and will not be 
>>priests. (At least not in the Roman Catholic Church). One reason for this is 
>>that in the Mass the priest, in persona Christi, is the bridegroom and the 
>>laity as a whole is the bride. It is a wedding feast as described in the 
> 
>This is JUST an analogy.  We should not be bound up by analogies.  Jesus
>was a Jew.  Do we therefore allow only Jews to become Christian?  No. This
>was debated about 2000 years ago.  Jesus was a person.  Women are persons,
>100% totally equal.  I do not think it fair to use the 'Jesus was a man.
>Period.' argument and then accept the 'Jesus was a Jew, but ...'.  Fair is
>fair.
> 
>I do not see that these are rules that God set down, as far as I can see 
>the only rules directly from God are to love Him (sorry about that pronoun, 
>but it is all English offers) and to love one another. 
> 
>Man-made rules can change.  Whether they will or not is another question,
>it is the objection that they CANNOT change that gets my dander up.
> 
>Bob
>--
>Bob von Buelow             Mars Observer Planning and Sequencing Element
>bobv@spike.jpl.nasa.gov          - standard disclaimers apply -

Dear Bob,

It is admitted that analogies are difficult to apply exactly in two specific 
cases but you missed the whole point entirely. I was simply stating what St. 
Paul was trying to convey in his letters. There are certain functions that an 
entity cannot and should not perform precisely because of its nature. Just like 
not everyone in the Kingdom of God can be prophets or healers or teachers.

The analogy, however, is not the part of my posting that I am curious to see 
comments on but the first part re: the priest(ess) as the bridegroom of the 
wedding feast.

Your brother in Christ,

Steve
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Date:         Thu, 1 Oct 1992 13:24:58 HST
From:         "(Len Howard)" <tas@PEGASUS.COM>
Subject:      Re: RCIA readings

Len, one thing you might consider is getting a bible edition that has
assocated commentary.  I use the New Jerusalem Bible, study version,
that has excellent footnotes.  I also use the One Volume Interpreter's
Bible, which has more interpretation, and less scripture, so must be
used in conjunction with another bible.  Any Catholic Bookstore will
have small commentaries on the books of the bible, some of which are
excellent.  And if your parish has a bible study program, I would
recommend getting hooked up with that.

But the single most important thing for you to do is regular bible
reading on your own.  Seep yourself in the Word, for faith originates
in the Word.

Shalom,                               Len Howard
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Sat, 3 Oct 1992 15:03:00 EDT
From:         "Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support,
              x8425" <tillman@SWDEV.SI.COM>
Subject:      Re: Women are unclean

Eric says: "Jesus chose only men as Apostles."

Jesus chose only Jews as Apostles.  That means all our priests should be Jews.
Anyone not a Jew is unqualified.

-----------------------------+--------------------------------
 Brian Tillman               | Internet: tillman@swdev.si.com
 Smiths Industries, Inc.     |           tillman_brian@si.com
 4141 Eastern Ave., MS129    | Hey, I said this stuff myself.
 Grand Rapids, MI 49518-8727 | My company has no part in it.
-----------------------------+--------------------------------
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic