From: tp0x+@cs.cmu.edu (Thomas Price)
Subject: Re: Which music amoral??
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 18:55:22 GMT


I was disappointed by Stephen Northcutt's response to my post.

In article <1992Sep3.140632.19121@relay.nswc.navy.mil> snorthc@nswc.navy.mil (Stephen Northcutt) writes:

>>Look, you idiot.
>It is true that I am not as smart as many folk that I know, but I am
>*NOT* an idiot.

You're begging the question.

>>Ice-T is not writing about killing cops because he calculates
>>that such lyrics will sell more albums.
>
>And you *KNOW* this for an absolute fact?  I posed it as a question.

This is wishful thinking on your part. Here's what you actually said:

	>album covers?  Amoral?  No, seriously immoral, not uplifting, not
	>soothing to God.  I decided right then and there I was NEVER going
	>to buy another secular album.  Then this ice tea thing cop killer
	>or what not came out.  I hate to get on Time Warner or whoever's
	>case, but that was one step over the line in the quest of the almighty
	>$$$$ idol.  I am not going to support that!  

>1.) You have clearly missed the original post, I am talking about
>a whole genre of IMMORAL music, no ifs and or buts.  

Once again, this is wishful thinking on your part. See just above for what
you actually said.

>I am under no
>compunction whatsoever to imagine ANYONE, who advocates senseless violence

You're begging the question again. I claim that the advocated violence
is not "senseless." I don't want to see it happen; I think it would be
a terrible thing -- but I respect Ice-T's declaration that things are
so bad that reasonable people are beginning to consider violence.

Your refusal to accept that this might be the case, and your refusal to show
any respect for Ice-T's viewpoint, are unfortunate. Good luck in finding
any alternative to this violence which will gain the support of these people
whose plain statements about the situation you will not accept as valid.
Good luck in getting them to listen to you. Good luck in understanding
anything they have to say about their situation.

>is acting in Good Faith should you be referring to faith in God thorough
>our Lord Jesus Christ.  1 James bears this out well enough.

If you don't know what "good faith" means, maybe you've never heard the
expression "begging the question" before. "Begging the question" means
"attempting to prove that something is true by assuming that it is true
as part of the proof." We are disputing the senselessness of the advocated
violence.

"Acting in good faith" means "acting without hidden motive", or "acting on
the belief that one's actions are the best possible." The commandment to 
love Ice-T as yourself enjoins upon you the responsibility to assume that
there is something in what he says, and to try to figure out what it is.

If you could swallow your pride for a mooment, you'd do the same with this
post, instead of trying to save face.

>3.)  OK, teach me about these social conditions that make violence
>a thing I should support.

I am not suggesting that you support violence. I am suggesting that you
respect the idea that the situation in certain parts of the country is so 
bad that reasonable people are beginning to consider violence.

See, then you'll have some hope of averting the violence, because you'll
understand some of the desperation that motivates it, and you'll be able
to communicate with the people who are faced with it.

Your current head-in-the-sand attitude will prevent you from communicating
with these people, because it prevents you from listening to them.

To repeat, I am not suggesting that you support violence. I am suggesting
that you recognize the validity of other peoples' experiences, as a 
precursor to communication with them. Then, perhaps, the violence can
be averted.

Refusal to recognize the validity of their experience prevents you from
listening, prevents all communication, and is what makes you and your
"I have all the answers and I don't have to listen to anybody who does
something I don't approve of" religiosity useless...

>I get the impression that you are young, passionate, and idealistic,
>this is normal and acceptable.  

as in this laughable piece of patronization. That's right, I'm going through
a stage. You needn't listen to anything I am saying. Whew! Good thing 
I can be pigeonholed like this!

>Nonetheless do not let this cause you
>to sin.  

Don't worry about me, worry about you. Good luck with all your answers.

Tom

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         Tom Price  |  tp0x@cs.cmu.edu  |  Simplicity, simplicity
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