Organization: Ryerson Polytechnical Institute
Distribution: na
Date: Thursday, 8 Oct 1992 22:53:03 EST
From: Linda Birmingham <ADMN8647@RyeVm.Ryerson.Ca>
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: SAT worship
 <19ctqdINNktk@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com> <1992Sep21.165259.2332@brandonu.ca>
 <19ngipINNed8@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com> <nyikos.718153679@milo.math.scarolina.edu>

In article <nyikos.718153679@milo.math.scarolina.edu> Peter Nyikos says:       u
>In article <19ctqdINNktk@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com> Ardrienne Regard writes:
>
>>We only ask for SAT scores for those folks who *don't* practice rational
>>thought......
>
>>Adrienne Regard
>
>Considering how irrational you were in the little exchange below,
>and also how you keep on crowing over a silly little in-joke about SAT's,
>I wonder whether you even got far enough in high school to *take*
>SAT tests.
>
>|>> Linda Birmingham (by the way, does anyone know what became
>of her?)

She was a casualty of the September Campaign, or as
the civilians know it, Back to School.  I am
suprised that Mr. Nyikos did not suffer the same
fate but perhaps his employers are not so demanding
or he does not have a child who has just entered
public school.

>|> Peter Nyikos
>
>| Adrienne Regard
>
>|>>You can not force a
>|>>fetus weighing 6lbs and up, through the vaginal opening
>|>>without causing tearing and subsequent scaring.
>
>|>I know this is false as regards pregnancies other than the
>|> first.
>
>| You are wrong.
>
>This much was from an e-mail correspondence between us.  In a series
>of posts to talk.abortion there emerged the following:

I for one have never had email with Mr. Nyikos, yet he
is quoting part of a post I made - see below.

>~Date: 28 Aug 92 22:27:48 GMT
>~Message-ID: <nyikos.715040868@milo.math.scarolina.edu>
>~Newsgroups: talk.abortion
>~Subject: Re: FOCA: And I quote.....
>
>~In <17glukINN3jn@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com> regard@sdd.hp.com (Adrienne Regard)
>~writes:
>
>~>In article <nyikos.714846005@milo.math.scarolina.edu> nyikos@math.
>~>scarolina.edu (Peter Nyikos) writes:
>
>[I was paraphrasing below from memory until the |'s ceased.]
>
>~>>|||- Ms. Birmingham
>~>>||- Dr. Nyikos
>~>>|- Ms. Regard
>~>>||| You cannot fit a baby's head through a birth canal without some
>~>>||| tearing.

I take it that this was your paraphrasing for I
never wrote this.

>~Linda said, "You cannot." No exceptions. Not my wife, not her sister,
>~not Linda, not Adrienne.  How is it that you read it another way?

What I said was "Every pregnancy will cause some physical damage.
You can not compress organs for several months without causing
some change.  You can not undergo massive hormonal changes
without causing some metabolic transformation.  You can not force
a fetus weighing 6lbs and up, through the vaginal opening without
causing tearing and subsequent scaring.  Then of course there is
the physical damage caused by c-sections".
<92225.110850.Admn8647@Rye.Vm.Ryerson.Ca>

Unless Mr. Nyikos now wants to suggest I was implying that all
women have c-sections or that women who have c-sections have
vaginal tearing I fail to see his argument and suggest that he
has fallen victim to responding to statements out of context.
This of course is one of the inherent dangers of relying on
memory to base one's point.

I also discussed post natal depression and the high cost of
giving birth in the US in that article.  The post was in response
to the recurrent, and Jimmy Miller in particular, trivialization
of the process, perils and stress that occur during pregnancy and
childbirth.  As someone who has given birth I find the argument
ridiculous particularly when espoused by men.  However I do not
have the time to get into a continent and enema war with
Mr. Nyikos.  If his wife was able to bear children without
suffering any of the common symptoms of pregnancy and birth, I
tip my hat to her.  She is obviously a remarkable and unique
woman, particularly considering the following is the standard
medical (Taber's Cyclopedic Medical Dictionary) definition and
description of pregnancy:

pregnancy (preg'nan-si)[L. pregnans].  The condition of carrying
a developing embryo in the uterus.

SYM AND SIGNS:  Amenorrhea, nausea and vomiting, inordinate
appetite, pigmentation of the areola of the breast, the
development of Montgomery's tubercles around the nipple, changes
in the uterus (softening and progressive enlargement), vaginal
discoloration, and frequent urination.
  Positive signs are hearing and counting the fetal heartbeat,
finding x-ray evidence of the fetal skeleton, and detection of
movements of the fetus.  There are various biological tests fore
pregnancy and these are 90 to 95% accurate.
[deleted duration]
PHYSICAL CHANGES:  *Uterus*: Changes shape, size, and
consistency; lining undergoes changes; peritoneal covering
enlarges; muscles mass increases enormously.
  *Vaginal Canal*: Elongation caused by rising of uterus in
pelvis,; mucosa thickens; secretion increased; increased
vascularity and elasticity; cervix, vagina, and vulva becomes
softer.
  *Abdominal*: Growing distention and flattened navel; striae
gravidarum.
  *Breasts*: Enlarged and painful; skin thin and sensitive;
nipples erectile and areola enlarged and darker; escape of
colostrum; tingling sensation.
  *Endocrine Glands*:  thyroid increase in size and activity;
parathyroids enlarge and secretion increases; pituitary increases
its activity; placenta produces hormones, affecting ovaries and
corpus luteum.
  *Circulatory System*:  Increased activity; increased blood
volume; blood pressure should be normal; varicose veins common.
  *Skeletal*: Pelvic joints soften; pelvic joints more movable;
bones and teeth affected.
  *Respiratory*:  Lungs impeded in late pregnancy; breathing
deeper and more frequent.
  *Digestive Track*:  Nausea and vomiting in early pregnancy;
appetite affected; loss of weight in early pregnancy with slight
anaemia; basal metabolism raised in later pregnancy; constipation
frequent.
  *Liver*:  Displaced in late pregnancy.
  *Skin*:  Sudoriparous and sebaceous glands very active; deposit
of brown pigment (mask of pregnancy); linea nigra.
  *Weight*: Increased.
  *Posture*: Changes as enlargement of abdomen advances;
sacroiliac joints and symphysis pubis more movable; painful
locomotion and backache; gait may be altered.
  *Urinary Tract*:  Increased kidney activity; failures of
kidneys produce nephritic toxemia; ureters, esp, right one,
dilated; pressure on bladder; frequent urination in late
pregnancy; bladder lifted into abdomen and pressure diminished.
Bladder later pressed upon by presenting part; urinary output
varies, presence of albumin abnormal.

Taber's then lists the following common "DISORDERS OF" and their
descriptions which I have omitted:
Nausea and Vomiting
Constipation and Flatulence
Muscular Cramps
Pressure Edema: a possible indicator of toxemia
Headache
Toothache
Backache
Dyspnea: pressure of uterus upward on transverse colon
Vaginal Discharge
Pruritus: severe itching, caused by skin stretching or possibly
  toxic or nervous origins
Heartburn
Varicose Veins
Haemorrhoids

(With two exceptions, I suffered all of these)

then the various types of pregnancies:
p., abdominal: occurring in the abdomen cavity
p., ampullar: occurring in the ampulla of the uterine tube (ectopic)
p., bigeminal: twins in utero
p., cervical: implantation in the cervical canal
p., cornual: occurring in one of the horns of bicornuate uterus
p., ectopic: see below
p., extrauterine:  pregnancy out uterine cavity
p., false: see phantom
p., heterotropic: combined intrauterine and extrauterine pregnancies
p., hydatid: a degenerative process that gives rise to multiple cysts
p., interstitial: occurring in the uterine wall where the oviduct
    is formed
p., intraligamentary: occurring in the broad ligament
p., mask of: pigmentation appearing on the face
p., membranous: amniotic sac ruptures, fetus comes in contact
    with uterine wall
p., mesenteric: see tuboligamentary
p., multiple
p., ovarian: implantation of ovum in the ovary
p., phantom: abdomen enlarges simulating pregnancy
p., tuboabdominal: part of fetus in uterine wall part in
    abdominal cavity
p., tuboligamentary: occurring in uterine tube and extending into
    broad ligament
p., tuboovarian: fetus develops in both uterine tube and ovary.

I could also provide Taber's very lengthy description of labour
if anyone so desires.

But don't let any of this dissuade you Mr. Nyikos from thinking
that being pregnant and birthing is nothing but a romp in the
park, you of course are free to perceive the world in whatever
way you wish.  I however am more inclined to accept what I have
read in medical journals and textbooks and my own experience,
than your version of your wife's pregnancy as a norm.



Linda
--
"I saw my doctor at the checkup six weeks after my baby was born.
Full of male pride, he told me during my pelvic exam, "I did a
beautiful job sewing you up.  You're as tight as a virgin; your
husband should thank me".  The New Our Bodies, Ourselves
Newsgroups: talk.abortion,talk.religion.misc,talk.philosophy.misc