HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: CT.BGH@forsythe.stanford.edu (Bruce Hinchliffe)
Subject: Re: FUNSIES: Antonymous Collectives
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 23:52:56 GMT

In article <1992Sep2.173940.8103@nocusuhs.nnmc.navy.mil>,
perez@mgr.hjf.org (Charles Perez) writes:
>In article <57680025@hpscit.sc.hp.com> fish@hpscit.sc.hp.com (John Fisher) writes:
>>
>>A block of writers???
>>
>>Ack!  I can't believe I did this!
>
>That's not contradictory! Writers get writer's block all the time.
>
>How about "a dyslexicalis of writers"? Or maybe "an illiterati of
>writers"?
>
>
>--

X:  I've got writer's block.

O:  Oh yeah, I had writer's block once for 7 years.

X:  Wow, how did you get rid of it?

O:  I stopped writing.

:)
From: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Sequels (was Re: Work in progress)
Date: 28 Aug 92 04:23:33 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world

Tim Kuehn asks how long it takes to put together a novel of 100,000 words. I
suppose it varies; I'm a part-time writer, part-time columnist, full-time
teacher, so I'm lucky to get as much as two hours a night to work on a fiction
project. Planning, research and general fussing take up a lot of time along
with the actual smacking of fingertips on keys...

That said, the arithmetic is quite simple. Write a thousand words a day (four
doublespaced pages, more or less) and you have a draft in just over three
months. Write it so that it needs very little revision, and let's say four
months. Not many writers are that prolific (Dave Duncan tells me it takes him
about five months, but he's writing full-time). But even 500 words per day, day
after day, will give you a finished draft in half a year.

What kills many writers is poor outlining (what happens next?); others succumb
to compulsive revision (brought about by failure to recognize poor outlining,
or by delayed realization that some elements in the story need bringing out).

I've found that keeping a log can be very helpful: I open a file that's just a
list of chapter numbers, with word counts in a column. Every time I finish a
writing session, I count the words and type the count into the column; add up
the column total, and you can see the dramatic progress you're making.
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: bf455@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bonita Kale)
Subject: Re: Science vs. story in SF (Was: World Creation)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 92 11:33:15 GMT




In a previous article, jtchew@csa3.lbl.gov (JOSEPH T CHEW) says:
>
>In another posting, Alan Barclay recommends Larry Niven's Known Space
>Stories as examples of good "hard" SF.  You might start with a specific
>story, "The Soft Weapon" in _N-Space_, as an outstanding example of 
>his point about how to use technology -- writing a story such that the
>central conflict exists only because of a speculative element.  In
>this case, it's a modal weapon which our heroes have to use, but which
>they may or may not figure out safely and in time... 


Yes, this is one way to use technology.  But what I meant was that it isn't
always necessary to have an -excuse- to set a story in a distant time or
place. 

Not that the story can be totally divorced from its setting.  If you work
out the setting carefully, it will affect the story (as, for example, the
slow communications, poor health care, and low position of women in the
early 19th century will affect the plot of your Regency romance).  But this
idea that a story can't be enjoyable unless the plot is -driven- by the
time/place/technology is not true for all readers. 

I was responding to the idea I see frequently implied--that if you -can-
make it contemporary, or historical, you -must- do so.  I think the delight
of a future or fantasy setting can be reason in themselves to read and
write speculative fiction. 

Bonita Kale
From: Alan_Barclay@mindlink.bc.ca (Alan Barclay)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Computer-aided story design
Date: 30 Aug 92 16:36:06 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world

Crawford Kilian:

"I'm trying a little experiment, and using a hypertext tool called Storyspace
to
rough out an outline for Redmagic. Storyspace might also be called Very
Expensive 3x5 Cards, but you can do some interesting things with it."

I've noticed programs like Plots Unlimited advertised for outrageous
amounts.  Does Storyspace do more than file scenes?  I'm experimenting
with a program called Lotus Agenda and use it primarily for that purpose.

Alan
      ......................... ... .

Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: bf455@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bonita Kale)
Subject: Re: Electronic publication
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 92 10:13:45 GMT




Thanks for all the answers.  They make sense; I guess I was vaguely
thinking of what happens (or may happen) when you post a story for free. 
Rita, I'm sorry if I seemed overly cautious of a friend of yours; you know
how cynical you can get about stuff that turns up in the mail box. 

Bonita Kale
From: curtis@berkeley.edu (Curtis Yarvin)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Languages in SF
Date: 29 Aug 92 23:16:12 GMT
Article-I.D.: pasteur.1992Aug29.231612.20540
Organization: CS Dept. Snakepit - Do Not Feed.

In article <14698@mindlink.bc.ca> Alan_Barclay@mindlink.bc.ca (Alan Barclay) writes:
>Curtis writes:
>
>"A horse, placidly chewing on the severed child's hand in its beak,
>is a far more powerful image than a vrishnu, placidly chewing on the
>severed murgli's hand in its beak - even if the horse is not a
>horse, nor the child a child."
>
>The author summons up the image of an earthly horse chewing a
>human hand, then says "ha ha, fooled you!"
>
>This is fine as a device but if it shows up regularly it drives me nuts.
>Every time the author says horse I see a herbivorous, hooved quadruped, not
>the creature in his world.  As a reader I feel cheated.  For the sake of a
>cheap thrill the author has set up image confusion that will persist
>throughout the book.  I don't believe this is a virtue.

No, I don't see it as a confusion; it's fairly easy to (without
explicit exposition or anything really painfully amateurish)
split gaping maws in your infinitives... no, to establish what
a "horse" looks like and what a "person" looks like.  

Before you've done so there is, indeed, massive confusion.
Most people don't survive the first forty pages of Park.
But the reward is well worth it; because all the emotional
overtones you normally attach to the word "horse" get
field-welded onto your vrishnu or whatever, without any
of the heavy anatomical baggage.  That makes for a smooth,
rich book, with a fruity oak texture and excellent bouquet.

Think horse.  Hoik up the word and gently cud it for a second.
How many of the images you got were strictly anatomical?
How many would work only with Equus Equus?  Not a lot, I'll bet.

c
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: thigpen@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov (Keith Thigpen)
Subject: Technical Writing as an alternative to Technial Development
Organization: NASA/MSFC
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 14:45:54 GMT

I've worked in technical software for about eight years, and feel that I'm
growing stale. I've considered moving into technical writing, but don't 
really have any idea about how the switch will affect my salary.

Can anyone give me approximate salary levels for technical writers? I'm 
trying not to be nosy. Sorry if I offend anyone, but this has a direct
bearing on whether I continue this investigation.

Thanks,
Keith

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Keith Thigpen          thigpen@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov      (205)461-4936   |
| New Technology, Inc.   Marshall Space Flight Center     Huntsville, AL   |
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: dkl@xcluud.sccsi.com (David Karl Leikam)
Subject: Re: Language Lists (was Re: Work in Progress: Proposal
Organization: Greater Montrose UFO Appreciation Society & Data Haven
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 15:53:49 GMT

In article <71582@apple.Apple.COM> chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
>
>I probably wasn't clear, so let me explain a bit more. The book I'm working 
> on isn't based on a given civilization (there are pieces of about six or
>seven, actually, but if I do my job right, people won't be going "this is 
>Nordic, that is hawaiian" as they read through. Mostly I'm worried about the
>naming Of more mundane objects (goats, forks) than about the esoteric and
>unusual.
>

  Hmm....maybe you should just think about the problem a bit more. Take,
say, a goat. When you get down to it, a goat (or anything else) is what it
does. The name is just a shorthand word for the function. If you need an
analog of a goat, you just describe what it does, and let the reader make
the connection. ("Oh, I get it. This is a goat. More or less.")
 
  A recently-read example comes to mind -- Steven Brust's "Vlad Taltos" books
wherein I'm left in no doubt that a Teckla is a rabbit-analogue, and a
Yendi is a snake, and a Jhereg is a vulture analogue. He conveys this by
functional descriptions here and there, without ever saying so explicitly.
 
  If the functional description doesn't fit or doesn't work, maybe it's time
to rethink things. Perhaps you don't NEED a goat here. Or perhaps you need
to clarify something elsewhere, so that the functional description does fit.

  Just my thoughts on it, anyway.
From: jlc5f@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Jean L. Cooper)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Help! Copyright Procedures
Date: 27 Aug 92 21:02:20 GMT
Organization: University of Virginia

The library at VPI is a U.S. Government depository library.
If you go there and ask for the brochure(s) put out by
the Copyright Office, you will find all the information
you want.
--
Jean L. Cooper    (BITNET: JLC5F@virginia.edu   CIS: 70253,1114)
"The true University of these days is a Collection of Books." 
                                           --Carlyle
From: Alan_Barclay@mindlink.bc.ca (Alan Barclay)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: short story writing vs. novel writing
Date: 2 Sep 92 07:53:21 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world

I never wanted to write short stories, but I got involved in a
weekly writer's workshop for short stories.  It turned out
to be a great training ground for learning lots of the basics:
active writing, show-don't-tell, susinctness, dialogue.  The
managable size of the manuscripts meant fast turn over.  One
could leave previous mistakes behind quickly and start on
something new.  Many novel-length works by beginners go on and on
repeating the same problems and it is a daunting task to correct
them all.

Of course, I believe in doing the job right the first time, so
I hate massive rewrites.  Other people may find rewrites helpful.

In my mind, what one learns from short story writing only lacks
one element indispensable to a novel writer--how to weave a lengthy
plot.  I am wrestling with this part'clar 'gator as we speak.

Now that I consider it, I think good feedback is the most important aspect of
learning to write, not what length of work you start with.

Alan

Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: elphorsc@nuscc.nus.sg (Hor Shoon Chan (Mr))
Subject: Re: Technical Writing as an alternative to Technial Development
Organization: National University of Singapore
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 02:20:34 GMT

jtchew@csa3.lbl.gov (JOSEPH T CHEW) writes:
: >You might see if, within your current organization, you could switch over
: >from straight programming to being the programmer who spends some or much
: >of his time writing up the specs, proposals, and so on.  If such a
: >role is possible where you are, it's a good intermediate step.
: 
: That's pretty sensible advice... get into "technical technical writing"
: and, as a salary and status issue, try to remain identified with the
: engineers.  There are a lot of nooks and crannies in technical writing
: where knowledge of user psychology, information mapping, desktop
: publishing, etc., isn't important, but hardcore technical knowledge is.
: 
: Many of these writers find that all the writing skill they need is the
: ability to put correctly used words together in grammatical sentences
: of tractable length, arranged in logical order.  (Not that those skills
: should be taken lightly!)  Their product doesn't need to win either a
: Pulitzer or a juried art show, but it had better be correct and have
: the necessary content.
: 
: But I encourage you to learn as much about communication as you can.
: It's not as though you're going to lose your technical knowledge in
: the process or anything.
: 
: --Joe
: "Just another personal opinion from the People's Republic of Berkeley"

Well said, Joe.  Undoubtedly, a technical professional with better
communication skills is a better technical professional.  In fact, Joe's
advice is not only appropriate for technical professionals wanting to
switch to technical communication but also for all technical
professionals who wish to become better technical professionals.

Shoon-National University of S'pore
Standard Disclaimer
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: jim@thinkage.on.ca (James Alan Gardner)
Subject: Re: Electronic publication
Organization: Thinkage Ltd.
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 19:01:20 GMT

In article <1992Aug31.122242.8846@sfu.ca> guay@fraser.sfu.ca (Tim Guay) writes:
>In article <1992Aug31.101259.9684@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> bf455@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bonita Kale) writes:
>>I've got the info (temporarily mislaid--I'll find it after I wake up, no
>>doubt) on ClariNet (sp?), a plan to publish reprint short stories and
>>reimburse authors depending on how many subscribers ($5.00 a month) to the
>>service download their stories. 
>>
>>Anyone got an opinion on whether this would put your story in the public
>>domain? 

>No it wouldn't as long as a copyright notice was included. Granted it could
>end up in some conntry with no copyright law and get pirated, but that could
>happen even if printed in Analog. From the sound of it it works like syndicationwhere you get paid by how many papers pick up a column, so the same rules would
>apply hence you still own copyright and have only leased noexclusive reprint
>rights/syndication rights. 
>
A copyright notice is a nice thing, but it doesn't change whether or
not a story is copyright.  The important thing in the case of ClariNet
is that authors will sign a formal contract with ClariNet which outlines
the rights that ClariNet is buying (as well as such things as rate
of payment, and other matters).  The author is not just throwing
the story to the winds of Netdom; the author is licensing a particular
form of publication, and assuming the contract is carefully worded,
the author is not saying anything about any other kind of rights.

		Jim Gardner, Thinkage Ltd.
From: bq276@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michael Seese)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: short story writing vs. novel writing
Date: 3 Sep 1992 03:15:19 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc4.ins.cwru.edu


Why don't you just try writing as many words as it takes?

I'm not trying to be flip.  If you've got a story that needs 
5,000 words to tell, write a short story.  If you need 100,000
words to tell your story, write a novel.
-- 

Michael Seese
Cleveland, OH (and darned happy to be here)
From: chuq@gallant.apple.com (Chuq Von Rospach)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Electronic publication
Date: 31 Aug 92 23:56:46 GMT
Organization: I is a writur

bf455@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bonita Kale) writes:

>Anyone got an opinion on whether this would put your story in the public
>domain? 

The way Brad has it set up, no way will it affect your rights. Of course,
Brad's stuff isn't usenet, either. It's a separate service with specific
requirements and rules.

There will probably be some piracy by the idiots, but you're not
broadcasting stuff to the wind. he's done a lot of thought in trying to
figure out how to make the pandora's box of computers work for publishing.
More than any other attempt I've seen.

-- 
Chuq "IMHO" Von Rospach, ESD Support & Training (DAL/AUX) =+= Member, SFWA
  chuq@apple.com | GEnie: MAC.BIGOT | ALink:CHUQ =+= Editor, OtherRealms
	A real SF writur with stories in ALTERNATE KENNEDYS and THE 
	  FURTHER ADVENTURES OF BATMAN, in better bookstores now!
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: jim@thinkage.on.ca (James Alan Gardner)
Subject: Re: Balance of Technology and Story
Organization: Thinkage Ltd.
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 18:48:58 GMT

One of the things that links Scientific SF with Fantasy is the
attempt to extrapolate the effects of an invented environment
on those who live in that environment.  By environment, I mean
all the outside influences that surround characters: the world,
the laws of physics or magic, social structures, and so on.
The writer asks, "Suppose things were different," and seriously
tries to answer that question.

This allows for fantasy (where you ask how the existence of
magic or supernatural creatures will affect life), hard SF
(where you explore the effects of new technologies) and even
alternate histories (where you look at what might happen if
historical events happened differently).  This way of looking
at SF also lets you rule out some kinds of magic realism,
where unusual things happen but the author deliberately avoids
looking for causes or clinically examining the effects.

		Jim Gardner, Thinkage Ltd.
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: curtis@berkeley.edu (Curtis Yarvin)
Subject: Re: Science vs. story in SF (Was: World Cre
Organization: CS Dept. Snakepit - Do Not Feed.
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 20:02:06 GMT

In article <14720@mindlink.bc.ca> Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian) writes:
>
>Why would anyone go to the trouble of "loathing" a literary form? Would anyone
>hate a haiku, scorn a sonnet, abjure an alliterative poem? If anatomy isn't to
>one's taste, one avoids anatomy.

And so I do.

I apologize if I was not clear; I don't exactly seek out "idea fiction"
for the pleasure of purging myself after the ordeal - gaping dry-mouthed
over the porcelain going 'ock ock' - literary bulimia.  No.

Nonetheless it's difficult, when exploring a field, to avoid 
beforehand the pebbles in the peas.  I usually quit well
before the emetic point; but I have enough experience to loathe.

>and what is it about high-plot, low-debate genres that interests us?

Principally the lack of debate; though it's hardly enough on its
own.

Fortunately there are more dimensions to fiction than simply
plot-versus-debate.  If the only way to fill out word-count
was an overinflated plot or a lot of empty blathering about
some half-witted _idea_ you've had which is just so _keen_
that everyone has to be _told_ about it, I'd have given up
books long ago.

c
From: saslpo@stevens.unx.sas.com (Len Olszewski)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Language Lists (was Re: Work in Progress: Proposal
Keywords: Language, Linguistics, etc
Date: 25 Aug 92 16:53:07 GMT
Organization: SAS Institute Inc.
Originator: saslpo@stevens.unx.sas.com


In article <1992Aug25.133634.10277@nocusuhs.nnmc.navy.mil>, yoshi@nocusuhs.nnmc.navy.mil (D M Yoshikami) writes:
|> In article <71572@apple.Apple.COM> chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) writes:
|> >Actually, this brings up something I've been grappling with. The advantages
|> >and disadvantages of building a custom language.
|>
|> In my younger days, I did something like this, not only compiling a
|> vocabulary (which a lot of was swiped from other languages and subjected to some
|> sound changes), but also a writing system and a pretty obnoxious grammar (taken
|> from the quirks of the various languages I learned).  Not satisfied with this,
|> I wound up putting together some of the closely related languages and dialects,
|> the Proto- language, much like what the Linguists have done for Indo-European.
|> Although the exercise was a lot of fun (and I had fun playing with fonts on the
|> Macintosh), I found using it was cumbersome, and I wound up only using it for
|> colourful effects.

[delted the rest]

Actually, Brian Aldiss wrote about a people called the "Cameroi" about 
15 or 20 years ago. He wrote a short story called "Confluence" which
was nothing more than an abridged dictionary of key terms in their 
language. The short story showed up in many of the "year's best" 
collections, as I recall, but I don't know if it won any awards. You 
may want to check it out as an example of how to do something like this 
the "right" way (or *a* right way, anyway, IMHO). The dictionary in 
"Confluence" is both thought provoking and hilarious at the same time.

Aldiss wrote a number of other "Cameroi" stories (if memory serves) 
during this period, but as I recall, he rarely used the words and phrases 
he took such pains to create in "Confluence". Draw your own conclusions.

I guess Frank Herbert did this for the _Dune_ series too. That device
was the reason that I stopped reading that particular series about a
hundred pages into the first book. No accounting for taste, I suppose.

Please feel free to correct any errors - it's been a long time since I 
read any of the materials to which this posting refers. 
<-------------------------------^------------------------------------->
|  Len Olszewski                |  "Thou gettest no bread with        |
|  Technical Writer             |   one meatball."                    |
|  saslpo@unx.sas.com           |                                     |
| "Have cursor, will curse."    |     - Robert Sheckley               |
|---------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Opinions this ludicrous are mine. Reasonable opinions will cost you.|
<-------------------------------v------------------------------------->
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: curtis@cs.berkeley.edu (Curtis Yarvin)
Subject: Re: Balance of Technology and Story
Originator: curtis@boa.cs.Berkeley.EDU
Organization: CS Dept. Snakepit - Do Not Feed.
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 21:30:43 GMT

In article <14699@mindlink.bc.ca> Alan_Barclay@mindlink.bc.ca (Alan Barclay) writes:
>
>My definition of Speculative Fiction ( a group which includes Science
>Fiction, Fantasy, and Horror ) is "Fiction where one or more of the key
>problems only exists because of a speculative element."

I like this definition, but can't resist offering one of my own:

"SF is any fiction which treats an unreal setting in a
realistic style."  (By realistic, I don't mean Realistic.)

This is serviceably broad, and divides genre sf from the
surrealistic pastiches that postmodern mainstreamers feel free
to dabble in; like Calvino's _Cosmicomics_.  It doesn't do a
very good job of separating sf from magical realism, but good
sf isn't very separate from magical realism anyhow.

One trouble with Alan's definition is that it excludes space
opera - from EE Smith to Banks - as well as some other
subgenres which we'd intuitively like to class as SF.

For example, is Le Guin's _The Dispossessed_ really SF under
this definition?  How does it depend on a speculative
element?  Substitute sailing ships for spaceships,
telegraphs for ansibles, Australia for Anarres, and voila!
a real live historical.  If not a very good one.

c
From: bq276@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michael Seese)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: FUNSIES: Antonymous Collectives
Date: 2 Sep 1992 12:28:19 GMT
Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc10.ins.cwru.edu


How about ``A sh*tload of anal retentives''  ??
-- 

Michael Seese
Cleveland, OH (and darned happy to be here)
Newsgroups: misc.writing