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Date:         Sat, 12 Dec 1992 11:57:00 PST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         lindberg@PSYCH.SSCNET.UCLA.EDU
Subject:      Authorship

     It's distressing that in some places professors automatically get first
authorship regardless of what they actually did...
     Some faculty here recently talked about this issue and said that it's a
touchy issue that should be dealt with right away: people's perceptions about
the amount or significance of their share of the work may not always
coincide, and it's better to talk things out ahead of time.  Apparently there
are some unwritten rules for determining authorship that many professors
stick to (I'm sure for some profs the rules are "me first always"!)
     Interestingly, some that *have made it* said that they actually
encourage their students to get first authorship, since they (the students)
are the ones in need to beef up their publication lists.  This is clearly not
the case everywhere, but it may not hurt to bring it up with one's advisor,
just to test the waters before embarking on a large project.
      Nangel @ UCLA
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Date:         Fri, 11 Dec 1992 15:36:00 EST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         "Todd.Nelson" <22817MGR@MSU.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: What's the Beef? ( Common Se

Phillip,

I agree with you. The old phrase"I can't expect another to love me until I
love myself" seems to fit. Alas, I don't see much trend toward
'cross-pollenization' as you call it. In a perfect world perhaps.

Todd D. Nelson
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Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 22:17:19 EST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         jlbugg@UCCS.EDU
Subject:      Re: Stats & Therapists

Tim, why am I always so tempted to challenge you?  Why should APA be
the organization to set "national standards?"  I'm all for standards
but maybe you've never heard of the APS?  I agree with you on the test
part, but if we leave it up to supervision, I think we will get a generation
of bad sups bringing in a new generation of bad therapists, etc.  Hard
to kill off those genes in the psychology gene pool...
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Via:        UK.AC.PLYM.CX; 16 DEC 92 17:59:53 GMT
Via:        vision.cx.plym.ac.uk; Wed, 16 Dec 92 17:59:11 GMT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.psycgrad
Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 17:59:07 GMT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Rob Simpson <robs@CX.PLYM.AC.UK>
Subject:      Re: Bushisms & Quale Quotes

bjreilman@EDU.UCCS writes

> Oh, come on...Todd, Tor, and Gary - I think it is great that you can have
> fun with this stuff. I am thoroughly convinced that it takes *real*
 intelligence
> to have a sense of humor. Keep Playing. Merry Christmas, you guys!!!

Does this mean Todd, Tor and Gary have passed the Turing Test?...

Rob Simpson, University of Plymouth, Devon, England.
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Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 13:55:30 EST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Monika Trzcinska <054470@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: stats & science

Tor,
In my department, and at least in my lab, our supervisor encourages
independent research, and although the original idea for an experiment
came from her, the consequent studies and contributions are expected to be
completely ours.  In a way my research got off on a tangent that neither my
supervisor, nor myself forsaw.  When it comes to writing, we write the whole
paper, whether we are first or second authors.  My supervisor becomes only
an editor, and believe me that is a great way to learn how to write properly.
Occasionally, she writes part of a paper, and when it comes to a final copy
we sometimes debate over how some sentences should be frased.

Once again regarding "doing it all in grad school" vs "having it done by
someone else for you": I would be very weary about those who widely
accept the "help" from others when conducting their own research, at least from
my experience.  Just recently one of us was hired to edit someone:s Ph.D thesis
To our complete dismay, the individual in question had absolutely no
knowledge about how to write in the APA style!  And we are not talking about
margins or spacing!  There were some serious errors.  This person, it seems
did not learn how to write and they are a month away from "obtaining"  their
Ph.D!
Are these the people I will be in competition with over grants?
Scary thought!


                                 _
    ) (    Monika Trzcinska    _- o   ) (   054470@ACADVM1.UOTTAWA.CA
   )   (----------------------- o o  )   (----------------------------
    ) (                        -_ o   ) (
                                 -
   "The most important attitude that can be formed is that of a desire
    to go on learning".
                                                  Dewey (1938)
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Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 01:46:07 EST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Monika Trzcinska <054470@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: authorship

Kathy,
In a sad kind of way, I am "glad" that my first publishing experience wasn't
isolated.  I promised myself that if I was to ever end up in academia I would
never treat any student unfairly, especially the one who worked his/her buns
off to get their name in ANY ORDER on a paper...
I got a bit of satisfaction when the same person, who did not include me on
the paper and once in an argument said that I would never make a contribution
to "the field", asked me for a reprint of my recently published paper, where
I am the first author.  Ah....life is worth living for moments like this one!


                                 _
    ) (    Monika Trzcinska    _- o   ) (   054470@ACADVM1.UOTTAWA.CA
   )   (----------------------- o o  )   (----------------------------
    ) (                        -_ o   ) (
                                 -
   "The most important attitude that can be formed is that of a desire
    to go on learning".
                                                  Dewey (1938)
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Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 12:51:37 EST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         smbrown@UCCS.EDU
Subject:      Help turning off/on mail and setting to digest

Could someone send me the directions for turning off/on the mail, and how
to reset from the 'normal' psycgrad to psycgrad-d?  Thanks a million!
Suzanne
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Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 09:58:47 EST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Sunni <bjreilman@UCCS.EDU>
Subject:      RE: Someone else's stats expertise

The prof I was referring to already has tenure and is a full professor, so
he is no longer in a publish or perish situation, yet he always takes first
authorship on everything except the student's dissertation or thesis. Since
I have not had experience with any other schools but this one,  I just thought
that that was status quo. Now I am feeling cheated after listening to you guys.
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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 10:00:26 -0700
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         "JOHN P. KLINE" <KLINE@ARIZVMS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Personal experience challenge

Kathy,
I came in on the middle of this discussion, so I'm not sure what it is that
you are talking about... Something about Pogo, bad hair days, and academic
pedigrees...... Some days, I wake up, look in the mirror, and think I'm
watching a rerun of People's Court.... I don't read Pogo......oh yeah...
Until recently, I was an academic mutt....
Cheers,
John Kline
KLINE@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU
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Return-Path: <zorrilla@cattell.psych.upenn.edu>
Posted-Date: Sat, 12 Dec 92 19:15:58 EST
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.psycgrad
Date:         Sat, 12 Dec 1992 19:15:58 EST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Eric Zorrilla <zorrilla@CATTELL.PSYCH.UPENN.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Another Hippocampus Question
              Dec 12, 92 3:11 pm

>         I have another hippocampus question.  Recently, some of
> what I've been reading in the stress literature suggests that:
>
>         1. the hippocampus sucks up glucocorticoids "like dey
> wuz candy."
>         2.  Glucocorticoids (GC's) inhibit some aspects of
> cellular metabolism and function in the hippocampus.
>         3.  #2 implies that hippocampal function under high
> levels of GC's is inhibited
>         4.  Also, high levels of GC are associated with
> hippocampal damage in some instances.
>         5.  And high behavioral and HPA (hypothalamic-pituitary-
> adrenal axis) reactivity is also associated with damaged
> hippocampi.

>         So, I was wondering, naive as I am about the
> hippocampus, if it is largely inhibitory in its method of
> action.

Absolutely.  I think this is discussed well in Sapolsy et al. (1986) The
glucocorticoid cascade hypothesis... (though there are more recent discussions
of the hippocapmus as a route for fast negative feedback to the PVN of the
hypothalamus from the adrenals).

Eric Zorrilla
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Date:         Fri, 11 Dec 1992 17:54:00 EDT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         KMORGAN@WHEATNMA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: What's the Beef? ( Common Sense etc.)

More beef from Kathy Morgan:

Tim asks "have people out there really been told that
psychology is not a real science?  I mean at parties or in
arguments on street corners or something?

No--much worse than that.  Try department meetings and campus-
wide faculty meetings, and try casual conversations in the hall
outside of the President's office  (the college president, that
is!  ;)  )

        Half of my own faculty does not think Psychology is a
science!
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.psycgrad
Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 16:59:45 EST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Matthew Simpson <054340@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
Subject:      how to get old files

On Fri, 18 Dec 1992 12:36:25 -0700 <AUBAS@ASUACVAX> said:
>HELP!!!  The unthinkable happened.  My 'puter crashed!!
>I had been saving all the msgs concerning GRAD info, msgs for
>the last two weeks.  I think it was Jenifer that started the conversation.
>
>Did ANYONE perchance save these msgs????  If so, could you leave me
>your name and I could send a disk to you to copy them for me?

If you wish to know all you need to know about retrieving old messages,
send this command to listserv@uottawa or listserv@acadvm1.uottawa.ca
GET PSYCGRAD DATABASE

Don't let the word "database" scare you.  I remember I used to ignore
anything that said "database."  The file is very informative and simple
enough that my grandmother could use.  Try it.  What have you got to loose?

O======================================================================O
 | _  l  _  * Matthew Simpson          * BITNET:                      |
 |  \_l_/   * School of Psychology     * 054340@uottawa.bitnet        |
 |    l     * 145 Jean Jacques Lussier * INTERNET:                    |
 |    l     * Ottawa, Ontario K1N 8P5  * 054340@acadvm1.uottawa.ca    |
O======================================================================O
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Via:        UK.AC.ST-AND; 12 DEC 92 14:28:06 GMT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.psycgrad
Date:         Sat, 12 Dec 1992 14:28:25 GMT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Julie Marie Williams <jmw1@ST-ANDREWS.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Common sense

Maybe it's about time to tell you about some of the research I'm doing at
the moment, which is empirical research into "commonsense theories".  it
seems to relate to the current discussion.
I am looking at peoples' "commonsense theories" of illness, and relating
them to how they actually deal with that illness, and hence how well-
controlled that illness is (in this case, i'm looking at asthma).
This research acknowledges, as Betty advocates, the existence of commomsense
theories, and their importance, rather than simply trying to change them to
the "right" theory.
For example, if somebody believes their illness will spontaneously go away,
then they're not likely to take medication for it; similarly, if they believe
that medication has no benefits, then they won't take it, in all likelihood.
The point is that these theories must be looked at, assessed, and related to
outcome before we attempt to do anything about changing them.  Hence they
become the *subject* of psychological studies, and become *included* in
new psychological theories.

This is slightly off the original tack of this discussion, I know, but I
thought it was worth mentioning.
Is anyone else working in this area?  If so, I'd love to hear from you!

Julie
St Andrews
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.psycgrad
Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 17:36:56 EST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Jason Evan Mihalko <WC5BB@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: authorship
              17 Dec 1992 16:07:17 -0500 from <G9226406@SSCVAX.CIS.MCMASTER.CA>

I was talking with my thesis advisor this afternoon about authorship.
In her usual annoying organized way, whe refered me to the APA publication
manual.  It says:

"Publication credit is assigned to those who have contributed to a
publication in proportion to their professional contributions.  Major
contributions of a professional character by several persons to a
common project are recognized by joint authorship, with the individual
who made the prncipal contribution listed first  Minor contributions
of a professional character and extensive clerical or similar
nonprofessional assistance may be acknowledged in footnotes."

"Substantial professional contributions may include formulating the
problem or hypothesis, structuring the experimental design,
organizing and conducting the statistical analysis, interpreting the
results, or writing a major portion of the paper.  Those who
so contribute are listed in the by-line.  Lesser contributions, which
do not constitute authorship, may be acknowledged in a note...
These contributions may include such supportive functions as
designing or building the apparatus, suggesting or advising about
the statistical analysis, collecting the data, modifying or
structuring a computer program, and arranging for research
subjects.  Combinations of these (and other) tasks, however, may
justify authorship."

American Psychological Association (1983).  Publication Manual
     of the American Psychological Association (3rd ed.).
     Washington, D.C.:  Author.


     Hope this helps!

                                      ----Jason


~~~~~
Jason Evan Mihalko
wc5bb@cunyvm.cuny.edu
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Organization: Saint Bonaventure University
Priority:     normal
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Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 23:43:37 EST
Reply-To:     rpaluch@sbu.edu
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         "Rocky Paluch S.B.U" <RPALUCH@SBU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Let's hear opinions

     This issue over a doctoral candidate having someone else do
statistics for them for a dissertation seems pretty clear cut.
You have to look at the school and department requirements for
recieving the Ph.D. degree.  If they have to pass a statistics
comprehensive for the Ph.D., they are only going to pass if they are
able statisticians (assuming the exam is fair);  if this is the case,
I see no problem with someone else doing their stats.  If there is no
stat comprehensive, but a competency in statistics is the dept. goal
and statistics courses were passed by the Ph.D candidate, then :
1.  The candidate should be competant in statistics, therefore the
hired hand statistician usage would be no problem.
2.  If the candidate is statistically inept, the problem here isn't
really someone else doing their stats for them:  the real problem is
either the failure of their stat classes (which we've assumed they've
passed) to make them knowledgeble or the department and school's
program for not including statistical prowess in their program.

If a Ph.D. program that someone completes is not supposed to include
statistical prowess (maybe a counseling psych or other -I'm just
guessing) then this shouldn't be an issue.  If it is a program in
which the Ph.D. is supposed to have mastery of statistics, and the
individual does not, the program has failed and a bogus degree has
been awarded;  even so the problem lies in the school and program,
not just whether someone has done their stats.


Rocky Paluch
St. Bonaventure University
rpaluch@sbu.edu
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Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 07:32:00 EST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         "David M. Fresco" <FRESCO@UNC.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Bushisms & Quale Quotes

Hoffmank,
Since you have demonstrated your obvious cleverness, by all means
offer us some Bubba-isms and Ozonemanisms. I predict they will be
equally as clever as your recent post.

> Three words Todd, Tor & Gary,
>
>                         Get a life.
>
> PS.     I hope four years from now the depth and freshness of your humor will
>         be as entertaining.
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Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 07:16:15 -0500
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         20SSMITH@GALLUA.BITNET
Subject:      Personal experience challenge

Kathy...hmmm...I've noticed you DO seem to get challenged quite a bit...
but I've thought that rather enviable...at least others seem to find your
ideas stimulating enough to challenge...better than that world of network
indifference where posts are consistently ignored...not a fun place to
be...

Sybil
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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 09:45:25 CST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         ECO_GXC@SHSU.BITNET
Subject:      Re: authorship

GARY,

If someone gives you an idea and you write a paper on it, and you
wrote put the letters down on a piece of paper, that's spelling.l
Writing and the idea are one and the same.  What you describe
is plagiarism.

Jennifer

I don't know about you but I don't think I've ever had an idea that
wasn't derivative from someone else in some way.  Words, the particular
expression of an idea, are protected by copyright.  Theft of words
is plagiarism.  But, ideas don't have that protection.  Some ideas
do have legal protection -- having to do with trade secrets, patents,
etc. but most academic ideas aren't covered by those catagories (some
are).  I know that a lot of academics do think that the use of someone elses
ideas is taboo, but I find that attitude difficult to support.

An example, years ago I read a book on horseracing (popular press) which
talked about track bias, a condition of the race track that favors
certain horses.  I was a graduate student in operations research at the
time and I wrote a paper on the subject testing the hypothesis that the
book had implied using data from Sportsman Park in Chicago -- I presented
the paper at a conference but shortly after that I went and got a real
job for a while and I never submitted it for publication.  Now did I
plagarize?  My paper was based entirely on someone elses idea. (I did
cite the book from which the idea came).  Then, a few years later, the
session chair of the conference I made the presentation published a paper
similar to my conference paper, he used data from a canadian track to
test for track bias.  Did he plagarize?

I've set psycgrad to nomail until after the first of the year, so
if you want to respond please do so personally,
   Eco_Gxc@SHSU

Gary CArson
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Date:         Fri, 11 Dec 1992 15:50:00 EST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         "Todd.Nelson" <22817MGR@MSU.BITNET>
Subject: Re: let's hear some opinions

Jennifer,

What a horror story! (interesting reading though) I didn't know Teen Beat was
a viable journal to which we can send manuscripts! ha,ha! I have some crappy
data that I think even Teen Beat would laugh at. But I digress. As for the
ethics of the whole matter, I will throw in my 2 cents here. While not in
judgment of you (so don't take any of the following personally, ok?), I think
that this sort of practice (not doing all the labor, thinking, etc YOURSELF as
a grad working on your dissertation ---excluding undergrad RA's running the
S's, cuz that's totally fine in my book) is totally UNethical, and should be
stopped (call the Dissertation police!). I think it is a farce that this woman
who you did the analyses for will get her ph.d. (a RESEARCH degree which she
clearly did NOT earn in any sense of the word) by bypassing all the normal
(and I think necessary) 'hurdles" along the way in doing a dissertation. We
HAVE to have standards for the requirements for attaining a ph.d., especially
for conducting a dissertation. Research degrees like the Ph.d. should only be
conferred with the understanding that the student has performed all the
requisite conceptual work, lit reviews, analyses, and interpretive write-up
(discussion section) THEMSELF (with a little 'guidance' here and there from
the committee chair/advisor).

How's that for an opinion? Can you see the steam coming out of my ears? :)


Todd D. Nelson
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Date:         Sat, 12 Dec 1992 15:11:00 EDT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         KMORGAN@WHEATNMA.BITNET
Subject:      Another Hippocampus Question

Hello, all you hippocampus experts!
        I have another hippocampus question.  Recently, some of
what I've been reading in the stress literature suggests that:

        1. the hippocampus sucks up glucocorticoids "like dey
wuz candy."
        2.  Glucocorticoids (GC's) inhibit some aspects of
cellular metabolism and function in the hippocampus.
        3.  #2 implies that hippocampal function under high
levels of GC's is inhibited
        4.  Also, high levels of GC are associated with
hippocampal damage in some instances.
        5.  And high behavioral and HPA (hypothalamic-pituitary-
adrenal axis) reactivity is also associated with damaged
hippocampi.

        So, I was wondering, naive as I am about the
hippocampus, if it is largely inhibitory in its method of
action.  That is, the above would make sense to me if the
hippocampus (or at least, the areas of it associated with
control of emotional reactivity) are largely inhibitory of
responsiveness.  If the hippocampus acted like a break on
reactivity, and you had a destroyed hippocampus, you'd have a
MORE reactive animal--right?  And that appears to be what is
happening.....

        I'd appreciate any enlightenment here.
        --Kathy Morgan
        KMORGAN@WHEATNMA.BITNET
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Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 12:23:48 EST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Sunni <bjreilman@UCCS.EDU>
Subject:      RE: Colorado cocaine addicts

Jennifer,
        Why don't you report this woman to APA?
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