From: uunet!infmx!robert@ncar.UCAR.EDU (Robert Coleman)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: men's issues vs. women's issues
Date: 24 Jul 1992 08:01:11 GMT
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

slarsen@verdi.helios.nd.edu (susan larsen) writes:

>I've been reading all these wonderfully phrased pleas 
>for women to take up the gauntlet of men's issues 
>or for all people to join together and fight the single 
>good fight of "gender issues."  Very eloquent.

	Thanks.  Even if you don't agree with the sentiment, apparently the
reading was worthwhile.
	
>I think of life as a hike in the woods.  
[...]
>Now he stands at the
>raging river and he looks over to his companion for 
>assistance.  Well, the companion is not by his side 
>because she is still about a quarter mile back struggling 
>to get out of the last ravine.

>So are men and women of today really at the same spot 
>in the woods? Have we really achieved a level of 
>equality where we as a people can stand together to 
>fight a common foe?  

>Or, do women still have some catching up to do?

>It strikes me that the woman on the road needs to 
>get herself out of the ravine before she can join 
>hands with her companion to face the raging river.
>So, I guess that he can wait by that river 
>until she catches up and is able to assist 
>him.  Or, if he wants to speed up the hike, he could 
>go back and give her a hand.  His choice.

>Either way, though, I suspect that she'll figure a
>way out of that ravine.

	Well, there's more "eloquence" along the way that I'd like to try not
to duplicate here.  The key point here is that you believe men are far ahead
on the same path, as if both have had to face the same problems; in fact,
men and women are on different paths, and everywhere the woman has a ravine
to climb up, the man has a cliff to climb down.  

Much of the satisfaction with where you are depends on your
individual desires, and only when your individual desires are blocked by
that cliff/ravine do you rail at the elements for the tribulations in your
path.  Then, the "grass is greener" syndrome guarantees that the person at the 
bottom of the cliff thinks that the top of the cliff is the place to be, while 
the person at the top of the cliff thinks that the bottom is far safer and 
more secure, and wishes they were there.  

	Do you envy my (mostly imagined, but that's another story) ability to
scale to the highest positions of power that you are excluded from because of 
your gender?  Well, you can have it.  I don't want that power, thanks.  I'd
much rather watch my children grow and love me, without feeling that I'm 
failing them for not providing for them to the best of my ability; a simple 
pleasure of life that men have been excluded from for generations, at least,
a situation you probably take for granted.  Does this prospect not seem 
exciting to you?  Well, that may be your personality, or that may be the grass 
is greener syndrome, or it may be that it's fun if you have the choice, and a 
burden if it's forced onto you.
	Well, guess what.  If you take a minute to talk to some men, you may
find that they have similar human feelings to yours.  Really.  Some of the
"advantages" we have don't look so pretty when you've been poked by some of
the thorns.  'Course, it's a little hard to determine that, because one of 
men's little mountains is that we're not supposed to have feelings, so we 
bury them.  I can see that it's easy to view men as unfeeling monsters (not 
accusing you, personally) but that should be some indication to you of the 
problems that little mountain causes.  Imagine going through life when the 
strongest societally-approved emotion you can have comes when the team you 
like wins the World Series.
	It's very easy to look at "the enemy" and see only their advantages,
especially if you're not interested enough to ask them how they feel.  It's
human not to try to look through someone else's eyes; everyone feels that
they have enough of their own problems without trying to understand someone
else's.  It's easy to ignore your own advantages and concentrate on the things
about your life that your don't like.

	But we can be better than that.  We can struggle to move past the
selfishness.  And it's to our benefit as well.  When we look through the other 
persons eyes, we can see how if we take this path down the cliff, it may send
rocks down on your head, and we can try something else.  You can do the same.
Best yet, we can both put our minds to it together, and we'll both get to
the goal twice as fast, since we won't be putting obstacles in the other's 
path.  We won't be creating new problems to solve, just dealing with the old
ones.

	One of the tenets of many forms of feminism is the men's point of view 
is everywhere, so women know what men's point of view is.  All I can say is,
men, not being allowed emotional introspection, mostly don't even recognize
what's making them so unhappy, or even that the emotion is unhappiness.  
Not knowing themselves, how could we express that pain so the women could
understand?
	Contrariwise, I feel that women's point of view has been expostulated 
upon endlessly for 20+ years; it's only recently that some men have gained the
ability to look within themselves and discover that being a man isn't all
it's cracked up to be.  It's easy to go with the simple "Well, there's *lots*
of talk about women's problems, and almost no talk about men's problems; where
there's smoke, there's fire, right?" explanation, but part of the problem is
that men aren't permitted to "smoke".
	I beg you, give a listen to some of the men who've had a chance to do
that emotional introspection.  You've heard women's views for 20 years.  You
live a woman's life.  Give yourself a chance to learn something past the
stereotypes about men, and maybe you'll find that our progress isn't very
different, that our problems are linked to your problems, and our problems 
are worth your time for that reason if nothing else.

Robert C.
-- 
----------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: My company has not yet seen fit to
	    elect me as spokesperson. Hmmpf.


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