HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: inr@eccles.caltech.edu (I. Neill Reid)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: re: haydn symphony recommendations
Date: 28 Sep 1992 15:45 PST
Organization: California Institute of Technology
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: eccles.caltech.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

 yes, it's the Haydn backlash. Sorry, Asbed Bedrossian, but
I agree completely with Deryck Barker - Haydn was the finer
symphonist than Mozart (the piano concerti are another matter).

 As to original question, what other Haydn symphonies worth exploring, 
well - almost all of them. But, avoiding a total cop out, 
certainly any of the 12 London symphonies - particularly nos. 96 
(the Miracle), 98 (my own favourite - not only the best setting of 
God Save the King as the slow movement, but a final movement with 
at least 3 false endings and harpsichord continuo, only about 25 years 
after it had gone out of fashion), 100 (the Military) and 104. Phillips
has just re-released Colin Davis' marvellous recordings of all 12 -
a snip at $40. 

Stylistically, there are very strong similarities between these later Haydn 
symphonies and Beethoven's first two symphonies. 
Other favourites include no. 88 in G, no. 86 (La Reine), no. 73 (La chasse -
lots of horn-calls as the name suggests), no. 60 (Il distratto) and
no. 63 (La Roxelane). In Il distratto some of the movements (there are 6)
derive from the play of the same name, with the violins at the start of the
final movement discovering that owing to some mischance they're all
tuned a semitone flat. (Bit like Hoffnung's edition of the Surprise, Surprise
symphony.) 

These earlier symphonies come from towards the end of Haydn's years at 
Esterhazy as the local court composer, and they tend to be written for
smaller forces (and in a different style - Haydn was, after all, busy
inventing symphonic form at the time). Specific recommendations for
performances weren't asked for, but I like the Pinnock/English Consort
recordings of the Sturm und Drang symphonies (~30-50). The Farewell
(no. 45) is the most famous from this group - a tactful reminder from
Haydn to Prince Nicolaus (I think) that it was high time they went home
to Vienna. (Other fine recordings are Dorati's complete set and
the Hanover band's nos ~70-90)

 Good hunting - just think, there's not only 106 available symphonies,
but also more than 75 (78?) string quartets, 43 piano trios and
over 50 piano sonatas. And (almost) every one a gem.

 Neill Reid  -   inr@eccles.caltech.edu
From: diarmuid@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Diarmuid Pigott)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Berceuse?
Date: 28 Sep 1992 15:58:25 +0800
Organization: The University of Westrn Australia
NNTP-Posting-Host: uniwa.uwa.edu.au
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

The recording you heard was probably the one by Clara Rockmore playing
the theremin. (DELOS DEL25437) I have the LP so the number might have
changed. The piece is quite haunting in this arrangement. (The record,
too, is highly recommended - though the sound is tiring after half an
hour. Rockmore is capable of conveying enormous amounts of feeling, and
the versions of Ravel's Havanaise and the Rachmaninov Vocalise are
particularly lovely.)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker)
Subject: Re: Jascha Horenstein (Was Re: Mahler 9 (was Re: Mahler 1))
Organization: Camosun College, Victoria B.C, Canada
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 17:34:12 GMT

In article <1arbpbINNbli@beryl.Stanford.EDU> GQ.JNK@forsythe.stanford.edu (John Klemm 3-4420) writes:
[....]
>IMO, the Mahler 7th is far from special -- perhaps because, like so
>many other Horenstein recordings, its merits seem overblown and its
>demerits are rarely mentioned in criticism, nor treated as if they
>would be significant to any serious listener.
>
>In this specific case, you do have sonic problems -- airplane-hangar
>sonics, as my partner mentioned when I played it -- and that alone
>would rule it out as a "best choice" in my opinion.  It is a live
>concert recording, so you get the usual audience coughs and rustles.
>The orchestra has some notable flubs, including the first note out
>of the euphonium solo that opens the work.
>
[....]
>I know Horenstein's work captures the imagination of a great many
>people whose views I respect.  But he has not seemed particularly
>more insightful to me than most other conductors, and for Mahler's
>7th in particular, his work is strongly eclipsed by Bernstein's CBS
>recording, next to which Horenstein's seems characterless.  The
>Horenstein recording's sonic and orchestral problems (conducting
>aside, for the moment) make it second-rank, and certainly not a
>first choice for general recommendation.  If someone can comment on
>what makes the conductor's interpretation outweigh these other
>problems for them, that would be very interesting to me.  How do you
>get beyond them?

Firstly it is true that the sound on this particular CVD is less than
perfect and that the orchestra does not always play precisely.
However, I must make the point that this is a genuine warts-and-all
live recording, not assembled from several performances (like, for
example, many of Toscanini's NBCSO 'live' recordings, much of
bernstein's later work on DG, Giulini's recent stuff etc.) or with
orchestral 'flubs' patched over by studio retakes - as in Karajan's
Mahler 9. Also I am prepared to overlook minor - and I think they
*are* minor - sonic deficiencies for a good enough performance.

Secondly Horenstein's Mahler can seem undercharacterised for someone
brought up with Bernstein's frequently hysterical view of the
composer. Horenstein brings an almost classical restraint to Mahler at
times, which to me can be far more persuasive. I think Bernstein's CBS
7th is weaker than his DG remake, and fine thought both of them are,
they don't give me the same sense of coherence I get from JH.

>I feel I have been burned by purchases of Horenstein performances,
>where the conductor's talents (which are not electrifying, at least
>not from what I hear in the Mahler 7th) have not overcome these
>other problems enough to give me a satisfying musical experience.

I feel this is your loss, but obviously you don't. Which other
performances did you feel 'burned' by?

Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept., Camosun College, Victoria B.C.
From: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Re : A Midsummer night's dream
Date: 1 Oct 92 14:19:52 GMT
Reply-To: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Organization: COMANDOS Project, Glesga Yoonie

tkurs-2@micky.uni-mainz.de wrote:
> The Mendelssohn version is simply called ' Ein Sommernachtstraum' and no
> opera but more a kind of incidental music, written to the German
> translation of Shakespeare's comedy...  The opera 'A Midsummer Night's
> Dream' was written by Benjamin Britten...  There was however still another
> version of Shakespeares play by Henry Purcell : 'The fairy Queen' .

And there's a piece by Alfred Schnittke, "Kein Sommernachtstraum", which
alludes to some of these (I've only heard a fragment of it so don't know
what it's really about).

-- 
--  Jack Campin    room G092, Computing Science Department, Glasgow University,
17 Lilybank Gardens, Glasgow G12 8RZ, Scotland   TEL: 041 339 8855 x6854 (work)
INTERNET: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk or via nsfnet-relay.ac.uk    FAX: 041 330 4913
BANG!net: via mcsun and uknet     BITNET: via UKACRL    UUCP: jack@glasgow.uucp
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Schenkerian analysis
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 12:50:39 GMT

In article <192psfINN9cr@agate.berkeley.edu> maverick@fir.CS.Berkeley.EDU (Vance Maverick) writes:
>In article <BEH.92Sep14134054@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu>, beh@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu
> (Bruce (really Nancy) Howells) writes:

>|> The Schenkerian "method" was once jokingly explained to me as being derived
>|> from the "Three Blind Mice" School of thought as well, however, on a
>|> serious level, was described as being more of a way to break down the music
>|> to such a point that it was at its most minimal level.

>This phrase implies an assumption which I think too many teachers allow their
>students to make, with Schenker or any other analysis (and with music or any other
>art): that the "analysis" is a version of the work, not an approach to how it does
>what it does.  A graph of the phonetic and etymological patterns in "The
>Windhover" is not the same as the poem; it's not even a "minimal" version.  It's a
>separate construct which might help one to read.  I doubt even Schenker felt he
>had isolated something which his subjects (a decimation of the canon worthy almost
>of Leavis) would have thought worth doing, in itself -- can anyone better read
>fill me in?

Exactly correct.  Of course, Schenker felt that music was over  by the time
he started writing, that Brahms had been the last great one.  

To me, Schenkerian analysis is a way of summarizing repeated listening.

>	Vance (who wishes he could better remember the anecdote about Schoenberg
>reading the analysis of the Eroica and asking where all his favorite passages were)

It's apocryphal, to put it mildly.  Schoenberg, though he and Schenker
broke personally in around 1912, respected his colleague and insisted
that his advanced students read Schenker, including the 1930 Jahrbuch,
which was devoted to the Eroica essay (and a short trashing of Reger).

Schenker, of course, did not like Schoenberg's music, but did hire him
to orchestrate his Syrian Dances, Op. 10.

Roger

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: tygar+@cs.cmu.edu (Doug Tygar)
Subject: Re: Xenakis / Arditti box
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 16:08:58 GMT

In article <music.717103867@batman> music@moravian.edu (Steve Heller) writes:
>That's really GREAT news! Where did you get the CD from? I WANT IT!!!

In Pittsburgh, we are fortunate to have a few stores that offer excellent
prices on CDs and are willing to handle special orders.   I personally have
had only good experiences with Audio Options (421-1099).

>BTW: Have you listened to Evryali? What a SMASHING (literally) piece
>that is! But there's a lot on those discs I've never heard and am
>quite eager to hear. Thanks for the post!

The disk has many sublime pieces -- I recommend it to Xenakis fans.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: jtbell@hubcap.clemson.edu (Jon Bell)
Subject: Re: Fax or phone number of Haverstick&Ballyk
Organization: Presbyterian College, Clinton SC
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 00:24:23 GMT

In article <1992Sep26.093549.18331@newssrv.edvz.univie.ac.at> A8411DAG@vm.univie.ac.at (Werner Friedl) writes:
>I would like to order CDs from the phone order company Haverstick&Ballyk.
>They only have an 800 number on their catalogue, and I am now outside the US.
>Does anybody know their fax or a regular phone number, which can be called
>from outside the US? Their toll free number is (800) 222 6872.
>

Their fax number is (512) 366-4774, according to their 1992 Main Catalog.


Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: coren@osf.org (Robert Coren)
Subject: Re: Speaking of the Ring -- without words
Organization: Open Software Foundation
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 20:52:23 GMT

In article <BvEB0F.n5B@news.udel.edu>, conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad) writes:
> Yes, almost all standalone excerpts require some tinkering.  Sir Donald
> Francis Tovey, who used to rail against "bleeding chunks" of Wagner on
> display in the concert room,

Quoting from memory, and therefore probably not entirely accurately:
"...audiences...accustomed to being served up bleeding gobbets of
butcher's meat hacked from the living body of Wagnerian music drama
under such titles as "Walkuerenritt", "Siegfrieds Rheinfahrt",
[etc.]..."


> said that (aside from self-contained
> overtures, of which the Ring has none), there are three kinds of Wagner
> excerpts:  the kind that starts nowhere (Magic Fire Music), the kind
> that ends nowhere (Siegfried's Funeral March), and the kind that starts
> AND ends nowhere (Forest Murmurs).  If a piece starts nowhere (i.e.,
> emerges out of the previous scene), that is often left to stand as is in
> the concert version; but if it ends nowhere, some kind of concert ending
> needs to be cobbled on.  Humperdinck wrote the ending for Siegfried's
> Rhine Journey.

And I don't know who's responsible for the concert ending of the
"Funeral March", but it's quite horrible, especially to those of us
familiar with the amazing stuff that actually *does* occur at this
point in the opera.

(I guess the same could be said about Humperdinck's "Rhine Journey"
ending.)

Interesting thing about "Der Ring ohne Worte", to which I was exposed
once (against my will) -- a good 3/4 of it is from
_Goetterdaemmerung_. Does anybody else find this strange (i.e.,
stranger than the whole concept to begin with)?

Robert
From: sec@otter.hpl.hp.com (Simon Crouch)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Karlheinz
Date: 2 Oct 92 10:09:03 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Bristol, UK.

In rec.music.classical, chem91@Elroy.UH.EDU ("Bill Harrison (713)-743-2789") writes:

> ps (to rekindle a firestorm) was anybody else as sickened as I was by the
> *pathetic* John Cage "obituary" in this month's *Gramophone* (about 3
> paragraphs, barely mentioning his music, and making him sound like a clown).
> That magazine needs a shake-up... 

No, since the obituary column in Gramophone only ever prints a bare summary.
More details usually follow in "appreciation" articles.

Simon.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: rwilmer@zinka.mitre.org (R. Wilmer)
Subject: Re: Which forza/carlos/ballo to buy?
Organization: Mitre Corporation, McLean, VA
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 17:21:09 GMT


An excellent Forza is with Tebaldi, Siepi, Bastianini, Simionato, and
del Monaco.  Tebaldi is at her peak and is musically and vocally great.

The best Leonora I heard live was Zinka Milanov.  Her studio recording
was a bad representation of her singing.  On that recording Leonard
Warren and Giuseppe di Stefano also sound way below par.  Only
Giorgio Tozzi as Guardiano sounds good.  Still there are good
Milanov representations from at least two live recordings (both
with Warren, one with Tucker and one with del Monaco) and on
an excerpts recording with Jan Peerce.

I should warn buyers that excellent music from the
wine-drinking scene (Act II, tavern scene)
and also from the soup-drinking scene (Act IV, monk music) is often
cut from Forza recordings.  I listened to the Callas-Serafin
record and was horrified that the beautiful Guardiano-Melitone
duet (``Del mondo i disinganni'') was cut.

For overall quality and completeness, again I recommend
Tebaldi & Co.

I second the praise for the Giulini Don Carlo.  We have already
had a string where many netters ranked that recording among
the all-time greats.  Nevertheless, the poster who raised this
current string said he did not like the Domingo recording,
but did not say if he had heard Domingo's French or Italian
recording.  If it was the French version, then I would recommend
the Giulini Italian.  But if it was the Giulini-Domingo-Caballe,
etc. that he didn't like, I give up.

Richard

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: tlp31807@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (T.I. double G-GER )
Subject: Southern Music Company
Summary: phone # for Southern Music Co
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 00:36:54 GMT
Keywords: phone number




Does anyone know the phone number for ordering music from Southern Music
Company???     


Theresa Prack
tlp31807@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
From: tygar+@cs.cmu.edu (Doug Tygar)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Tahitian Choir
Date: 5 Oct 92 04:26:20 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

In article <BvC3A4.4D0@brunel.ac.uk> David.Martland@brunel.ac.uk (David Martland) writes:
>I heard a most amazing choral piece the other day on BBC's programme "Pick of the Week." It featured
>a Tahitian Choir from an island/village called Rato. There is a CD available called, I believe, "Tahitian Choir."

In fact, I just picked this CD (which was released last month) up two weeks
ago from a local dealer.  (The copy was used, and it only cost $7.50.) The CD
is entitled:  "Tahitian Choir: Rapa Iti", and it features a choir of 126 from
the city of Rapa.  The liner notes for the CD have English translations of the
words.

It is on Triloka 7192.  I think world music fans will enjoy this disk.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: steve@fid.morgan.com (Steve Apter)
Subject: Re: Mahler and all that Rott
Organization: Morgan Stanley & Co., New York, NY
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 17:42:48 GMT

In article <1992Sep28.232232.11517@nuscc.nus.sg> Smoliar@ISS.nus.sg (Stephen Smoliar) writes:
>
>I found the following material about Rott in the de La Grange Mahler biography:
>
>	....  Before his innocence was finally proved, Rott
>	went insane and was shut up in an asylum, where he used his
>	manuscripts as toilet paper, saying:  "That's what human works
>	are worth!"
>

This is graphically depicted in Ken Russell's Mahler film, though I seem to
recall the subject being Wolf.
 
>Stephen W. Smoliar; Institute of Systems Science
>National University of Singapore; Heng Mui Keng Terrace
>Kent Ridge, SINGAPORE 0511
>Internet:  smoliar@iss.nus.sg


From: mike@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Mike McNelly)
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 16:12:02 GMT
Subject: Re: Bruno Walter's Mozart recordings
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical

> In article <1992Sep21.033205.1@vax1.umkc.edu>, etishkoff@vax1.umkc.edu writes:
> >Has anyone heard the re-releases of Bruno Walter's Mozart recordings?  If so,
> >which symphonies are included in the set, how are the sonics, and what do
> >you think of Walter and these recordings?
> 
> I haven't heard the CD reincarnation, but have opinions of Walter.  His LP
> set of Mozart symphonies was one of the few records I de-accessioned from
> my collection.  The problem is in two parts.  On the one hand, Walter's
> conception of Mozart was based on late 19th century style.  On the other 
> hand, Walter had no "method" that he adhered to other than his own personal
> feelings.  That idea in itself is 19th century:  the idea that Walter could
> be so omniscient so as to assume how Mozart's music is supposed to sound
> merely out of his own personal feelings. (Having gone through all of Walter's
> 7,000-odd pieces of correspondence I can confirm his having written this
> on more than one occasion.)  Whereas this kind of utlimately uneven approach
> works very successfully in Mahler, I don't think it holds up under our
> contemporary approach to Mozart (which has at least some more musicological
> evidence in support).
> 
> ...
> 
> Bob Kosovsky

"Method" is a means to an end.  To me, the end is to convey something
that is worthwhile in the music from the performers to me, the listener.
If it works well, fine.  But it isn't the only means to the end.

The true test for a performance isn't whether it conforms to a theory,
whether it's consistent with a method, or whether it displays the
composer's original intent, etc.  Rather, the crucial test is whether it
successfully communicates with me.  Bruno Walter's approach to the
Mozart pieces we're discussing, while not necessarily pure in a
musicological sense, work for me very well.  I also like other
approaches, too.

Mike McNelly
mike@fc.hp.com

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu (Bob Kosovsky)
Subject: Re: Recording Poulenc
Reply-To: kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu
Organization: Computer Center, CUNY Graduate School, New York NY 10036
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 15:49:13 GMT

In article <CB.92Sep21112630@tamarack13.timbuk>, cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster) writes:
[re:  Public domain musical scores]
>This is the basis of Dover's series of inexpensive scores: they're all
>in the public domain.  

Not true! The Bartok (to name one) is a new edition created for Dover.
A few others (Beethoven symphonies, some Mozart operas) are PD only in
the United States.  Further, their translation of notes that appear on the
same page as the music (such as Schenker's Beethoven sonatas) enables them
to copyright it light a newly published work.  A friend of mine is the music
editor at Dover and he says there has been occasions where Dover has brought
litigation against a party - so be very careful!

>Later editors might have contributed something
>worthwhile, but for me their versions aren't worth the huge difference
>in price (although others would have more exacting needs than mine).

In cases like the music by CPE Bach, Beethoven string quartets, Mozart
symphonies, the editions they selected are GHASTLY.  I would guess that
half the articulations in these editions are plain WRONG and not at all
present in the original music.  Unless you want a very distorted view of
these composers, you can't settle for a dover edition in many cases.
To be a well informed musician or amateur, you must rely on good sources.
The Neue Mozart Ausgabe gives a very different view of Mozart than the
Old Gesamtausgabe - that's part of what it takes to be informed and
knowledgable about music.

Bob Kosovsky
Graduate Center -- Ph.D. Program in Music(student)/ City University of New York
New York Public Library -- Music Division
bitnet:   kos@cunyvms1.bitnet        internet: kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu
Disclaimer:  My opinions do not necessarily represent those of my institutions.
From: jseboldt@pnet51.orb.mn.org (John Seboldt)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Who wrote "A Midsummer Night's Dream"?
Date: 4 Oct 92 02:05:00 GMT
Organization: People-Net [pnet51], Minneapolis, MN.

srgcraf@grace.cri.nz (Ross A Fletcher) writes:
>In article <199209300651.AA21344@tuna.wang.com> DAVID.CASHMORE@OFFICE.WANG.COM ("David Cashmore") writes:
>>on Concert FM.  Isn't the famous wedding march (yes we had it at ours) from
>>the Mendolsohn (SP also?) version?
>>
>>David
>
>The march which brides come in to is Mendelssohn, i.e. anglicised to "Here 
>Comes the Bride" but the one frequently used to leave the church is more 
>likely to be the wedding march from Wagner's "Lohengrin."  I doubt if you 
>heard a "version" by Benjamin Britten - you might have heard him conducting 
>a performance.
>
>Ross


Sorry, gents, it's the other way around.  The "traditional" processional is
the Wagner ("Here comes the bride, fair, fat, and wide"), and the
"traditional" recessional is the Mendelssohn.

Not that I encourage either one because they've been so cheapened by being
played on Hammond organs (or other cheezy synthesized sound) on countless soap
opera weddings.  In fact, Wagner's heirs and survivors were aghast to hear
that this was used in church in the U.S.  -- nobody would even think of doing
that on the continent, considering Wagner's character and
bias against established religion.

:  John Seboldt...Minneapolis, MN...                            :
:  As a ham, K0JD...as a human...well, you judge!               :
:     UUCP:{crash, tcnet, petrus, quest}!orbit!pnet51!jseboldt  :
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:     INET:jseboldt@pnet51.orb.mn.org                           :
From: borchers@poogh.llnl.gov (Robert R. Borchers)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Das Lied van der Erde ( was Re: Mahler 1)
Date: 2 Oct 92 18:17:07 GMT

In article <2ACC786E.28020@news.service.uci.edu>  
jdooley@maemaster.eng.uci.edu (John R. Dooley) writes:
> Tong Bo-Ming writes:
> >
> >	I would also like to hear about all the favourite recordings of
> >Mahler's 9th and Song of the Earth.  Any suggestions ?
> >
> 
> I'm especially fond of Bernard Haitnik's Phillips (mid-price 8-))
> recording with (There is nothin' like a) Dame Janet Baker.  There's
> also a Bruno Walter recording (I think it's on Angel) from the early
> 50s that's supposed to be great.  Haven't heard it 8-(.
> 
> John D.

--
Having been a Kathleen Ferrier fan for many years, probably because of  
growing up with WFMT and Norm Pellegrini, I have never heard a version of  
Das Lied that I like better. I think it has now been reissued on CD. Bob

Robert R. Borchers
L-414
Livermore, Ca 94551
borchers@llnl.gov
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