From: eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg (Othman Ahmad)
Subject: Re: Discussion on Malaysian sultanate amendments
Followup-To: soc.culture.singapore,soc.culture.asean
Organization: Nanyang Technological University - Singapore
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 07:32:43 GMT

ROLAND U (sa2263263@ntuvax.ntu.ac.sg) wrote:
: In article <1993Jan27.022443.26974@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg>, eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg (Othman Ahmad) writes...
: >ROLAND U (sa2263263@v9000) wrote:
: >: In article <1993Jan26.083149.27461@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg>, eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg (Othman Ahmad) writes... 
: >    ^
: >You think is definitely your invention. It is not the way I heard it.
: > 
: Ok..alllow me to rephrase it. i've read and now remember it being published in 
: the Strait Times that the wards reserved for the royalty will now be open to the
: public as they are unused most of the time. 

                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I do not recall reading this. Which date was this? If the sultan were in KL,
he would be very stupid to go a government hostpital. The private hospitals
are better equipped and better service.
	I do not recall any special rooms for the sultans in the hospitals that
I had visited. Of course in Sabah only but I once visited Klang hospital. 
I do not recall seing any special rooms for the sultans/kings. The point I'm
trying to make is that not ALL hospitals MAY have those so called special
privileges. It could be blown out of proportion.

: > 
: >Do you know that there are equipments in Miri that is reserved only for
: >Shell staff? I believe the same is true in Trengganu.
: >: 	The properties of the kings are the property of the state governments.
: >: >By letting the property rot, will be a great disservice to the state.
: >: Not true. The properties of the royalty can only be used by the royalty and is
: >: considered by them to be theirs. By not allocating money, the onus to upkeep
: > 
: Ri^ht, as you say, Mahatir has been allocated one. However, the Sultans have only
: been allocated 8 or 9, but how many do they have ? 20 to 30 luxury cars..not to
: include those for thier bodyguards and so on and so forth.

The others are not alocated to them, they bought them. Allocated and bought are
two different things. Why don't you count the number of cars owned by Dr. 
Mahathir, his wife, his children etc. as well?
: > 
: >: their properti will be on the royalty. This will encourage them to have fewer
: >I wonder how Dr. Mahathir will feel if he were required to maintain his
: >allocated cars. How about all the other government officers? Even the 
: >company officers?

: It would be reasonable if they government were to maintain the cars that were
: allocated to them but not the excess inventory. I sure the government did
: not allocate private jets and yachts.
The allocation of private jets /yachts is up to the State government. In fact
Sabah used to have a private jet and even yachts for our Chief ministers. It
all depends on how rich the state is.

: > 
: >: palaces, cars, etc etc
: >: > 
: >: >How about the governers, the yang di pertuan negaras of Sabah, Sarawak, are
: >: >they also not entittled for the privileges?
: >: >	Why should the kings be the only ones targeted? Shouldn't the other
: >: >heads of states also affected?
: >: > 
: >: This "targeting" only started because the royalty have gone too far in their
: >                                            ^^^^^^^
: >So you want all chinese to be deported just because of the actions of a few
: >chinese gangsters.
: > 
: If want to counter-argue in this childish manner, be my guest. it has already
: been reported in the papers, that all with the exception of one ruler, have
: been accused of misdeeds. If it were only one ruler, this crisis would not
I thought I'm reading the same newspapers but I do not recall the misdeeds of
all of them. Unless you consider getting involved in business INDIRECTLY is 
also a misdeed? Wow, how many politicians in Singapore, Malaysia and the rest
of the world are guilty of these misdeeds.

: arise.

: >: abuses. Although, some may doubt the authencity of this allegations, like
: >: the folks say " Ain't no smoke without fire ". If the governers or other
: > 

: >Same thing with other allegations. Just because some government officers are
: >corrupt, do not mean that all of them must be punished.
: >Rule of law:
: >	Innocent until proven guilty,
: >	Guilt cannot be inherited.
: > 
: >Obviously you've broken both laws but then you're not alone.
: Like I said, majority has been accused and found guilty by the masses.
Without any defence at all? What kind of justice is this?

: > 
: >: high figure were to misuse ther authority, they will most definately be targetted
: >: and in their case, sacked.
: >                     ^^^^^^
: >To sacked is fair, but to remove the POST entirely? Just because there are
: >corrupt custom officers, should we abolish/reduce the number of custom 
: >officers?
: > 
: The royalty still does exist. it is only their immunity to prosecution that is
: gone. Immunity to prosecution is not the royalty.

You have not read my next paragraph.

: >: >Question of immunity only during official duties is very hard to establish so
: >: >was not implemented in all other countries. Do you know that the President of
: >: >Singapore also have full immunity? So are the other heads of state in Malaysia,
: >: >and other commonwealth nations, and even all the royalty of the Britain, unlike
: >: >Malaysia where the immunity is only for the Sultans.
: >: > 
: >: The head of states are elected by the people and the people feel that they
: >                     ^^^^^^^^^^^
: >This is a blatant lie. You should check with your facts first.
: Not really. The president of Singapore is elected by the government who is 

                                            ^^^^^^^
He is not elected but selected. Do not confuse the non-Singaporean.
: elected by the people. It is not inherited or decreed .
                                                ^^^^^^^
Just because the party is elected by 60% of the people, does not mean that
even 50% agree to the choice of President.

It is decreed by the PM, that is why your system is subject to abuse although
not as bad as Philippines or US system.
	IN fact LKY proposes an even stronger President elected by everyone,
but non-political(not actively involved in any party), who not only have full
immunity but full control of the assets of Singapore.
	Unfortunately it is very hard to establish the non-political nature.
In fact the heriditary kings are the best non-political power broker there 
ever be. As long as they are rich and cannot be bribed(if you're rich, it is
not easy to bribe you).


: > 
: >: have done wrong, believe me, they will force the wrong doers to go..e.g Brazil's
: >: ex-president. The royalty of Britain is only existing because of Queen Elizabeth
: >: and because of their entertainment value..;]
: > 
: >How come they have more power than even our present kings? EVen much richer?
: Richer ? Perhaps. More power ?? Certainly not. If they had more power, the
: papers there are most definately not going to get away with their reporting.
Have you seen any attack on the Queen, who is equivalent to the Sultans in 
Malaysia. The ones under attack were the princes. But then they have no law
stopping the criticism of the rulers.
: Besides, the royalty there do not interfere with the government at all.

What makes you think they royalty in Malaysia interfere with the government
unless you consider asking for contracts as interfering?
	But aren't you aware that the same is true in UK?
	The royalty in UK have no reason to block any bills but there are a 
lot of reasons to block the bills in Malaysia because they do not even follow
the constitution. Or it may cause problems. The only time that I know
of the sultanate blocking bills is when this present amendment is passed but
this is clearly against the constitution.

: > 
: >: > 
: >: >: There have been tales of manslaughter and in one case, murder, with
: >: >: allegations made in parliment that a sultan killed his golf caddie.
: >: >This was a very old story but only come out now. You may wonder why?
: >: > 
: >: If I were fighting a war of words and trust, anything I can use for ammo
: >: will be used.
: 	So your motive is just grudge and nothing to do with justice or even
: >common sense.

: And so comes the purpose of the word IF. Besides, even IF i begrudge them, I'm
: most definately not in any position to do anything about it. 
: >	With the removal of the immunity, don't you think that the kings are
: >redundant?  We should just get rid of them, they are just a waste of money.
: >People with no power should not be given any money. At least now they still
: >have power so their salary is worth keeping.
: >	Who should replace them?
: > 
: Power ? To do what ? Abuse people ? 
: >	Democracy is worth billions. How many lives will be lost if there were
: >dictatorship in Malaysia? How many billions will be lost in a dictatorships?
: > 
: >Look at Burma and Phillippines. They were the richest and what happens to thenm
: >now. Tell me how many billions have they lost? 
: > 
Check your history books. I'm not talking about present cases but equivalent
past cases.

: Burma is under a military yoke at the moment while Phillippines is reeling
It wasn't always under military. It used to be prosperous.

: from several economic and physical disasters. It's a matter of running the
: country. There is no dictatorship in Phillippines.
Unless you call the Martial Law in the philippines under Marcos is not a
dictatorship.
	The effect of this dictatorship is what caused the economic hardship.

: Roland U.
: sa2263263@ntuvax.ntu.ac.sg " Darkness is merely the absence of Light "

--
Othman bin Ahmad, School of EEE,
Nanyang Technological University, Singapore 2263.
Internet Email: eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg
Bitnet Email: eoahmad@ntuvax.bitnet

Newsgroups: soc.culture.singapore