HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: twpierce@amhux1.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: Gay Homophobia (was Re: Too straight looking to be gay???) (was re: UNGAY GAY)
Organization: Amherst College, Amherst MA
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 04:02:54 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.005350.4551@microsoft.com> bobsarv@microsoft.com (Bob Sarver) writes:

>Simple test (even for you).
>
>1.  T/F  Members of an oppressed minority group who willingly act 
>         out negative stereotypes advance the cause of their group's 
>         acceptance in society.

True.

And false.

>2.  T/F  Bizarre behavior is a effective recruiting tactic to get
>         invisible members of a oppressed minority group to become 
>         more visible.

False.

And true.

>3.  T/F  Sometimes members of a minority group will act in personally
>         selfish ways which hurt the overall group goals.

False.

And true.

>4.  T/F  When a group shows a chronic unwillingness to submit its beliefs
>         to examination, testing, or debate, said group is most likely
>         a religion and not a political movement.

True.

And false.

Do you see the answers to these questions as dualities?  Perhaps
that's a large part of the problem here.

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / "I don't know how much support NAMBLA
\  / twpierce@amherst.edu      /  has in the gay community."
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) /   -- Clayton Cramer, August 1992
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: idx009@cck.coventry.ac.uk (the Crisco Kid)
Subject: Re: Deeper Master!  Take it Bitch!
Organization: Eris's Restaurant
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 18:57:18 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.054832.299@wam.umd.edu> jns@wam.umd.edu (J. N. Shaumeyer) writes:
>Jack Hamilton (jfh@netcom.com) lauds _Straight Talk About
>Homosexuality for Straight Readers_:
[quoting]
>>    A:  Shove it deeper, master!
>>    B:  Take it, you bitch! 
>I'm *sold*!  Where can I find a copy tonight?

Ditto...

>And it *did* remind me of something.  Another one 
>of those embarrassing-things-said-in-bed stories.  
>I can't quite remember now [*so* sorry, I was busy 
>at the time] just what the phrase actually was, or 
>whether Jim or I said it, but the mutual reaction 
>stopped the action: "I thought people only said that 
>in cheap porn films!"

<grin> Reminds me of one of the first times that Justin and I made love.
There was (predictably) much grunting and slurping, and fairly frequent
gasps of "Oh yes!".  Pity with that is that "Oh yes" is one of the
(at least supposed) favourite interjections of our Prime Minister
John Major, and much used in satirical treatments of his style.  Any
readers of that wholly excellent British satirical magazine 'Private
Eye' will be more than familiar with the genre, and, I suspect that
'Spitting Image', the television series, may also use it, though, not
watching television, I cannot be sure.

It was a cause of much laughter when we realised.

>Thereafter, we made frequent use of "oooh, baby, 
>[harder | deeper | longer | faster | &c.]."

The latest proposal is to tape a long, loud, extremely vocal sex session
(replete with the sounds of whips, chains, cat-shaped mayonnaise
dispensers, balloons et al) and to play it through the car stereo *very*
loudly when stuck in traffic jams.

				Kay
-- 
6'2", dark short hair, blue eyes, bisexual and horny as ....
Kay Dekker, Dept of Industrial Design, Coventry University, Coventry UK
37 Old Winnings Road, Keresley Village, Coventry   |B0 f t+ g++ k++! s+ e r p!
Phone: +44 203 838668 (work) +44 203 337865 (home) |Deflowerer-of-innocents
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: jns@wam.umd.edu (J. N. Shaumeyer)
Subject: Re: Gay Republicans
Organization: Militant Homosexual Lobby, Gay Lifestyle, Inc.
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 02:33:15 GMT

Mark (AH.PBL@forsythe.stanford.edu) wrote:
 
> levin@bbn.com (Joel B Levin) writes:
> >
> >... I did it to vote for John Anderson back in ....
> 
>   (John Anderson was an independent for President in 1980 - why would
>   you have to register as a Republican?)

Probably for the same reason that even I was
briefly a Republican: Anderson was running in
Republican primaries before he launched his
campaign as an independent.

--jns
From: futor@llnl.gov
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Gay bull
Date: 15 Aug 92 00:25:37 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Livermore Nat'l Lab.
Originator: futor@diego.llnl.gov


 jefu@akbar.nmt.edu (Jeff Putnam) writes:
>
> . . .of (rusty) kiswahili . . . 8 noun classes . . .
Hmmmm.  'Futor on Swahili' listed 6 classes.  I *has* been 18 or
19 years since I even *saw* that thing though.

Off to the languages/linguistics reference shelf . . .

-- 
__
\/  -+-  randy  -+-  all generalizations are flawed  -+-  futor@llnl.gov  -+-
From: fjvwing@cs.vu.nl (FJ!!)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: mandatory service (was Re: Metzenbaum introduces Senate bill to end
Date: 14 Aug 92 07:58:47 GMT

aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:
>We, argentinians, know how effective they are.
>The problem with the draft, as we had in Argentina for the las 100 years 
>(almost), 

which is the reason I'm not going back to Argentina any time soon.
That's right, it seems that I qualify for the Argentinian draft as
well. Aren't dual nationalities wonderfull things?
							FJ!!
From: joelp@cs.man.ac.uk (Joel Parthemore || Pharos Project)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Utopia (was Re: mandatory service)
Date: 13 Aug 92 23:08:38 GMT

robertl@luciano.Stanford.EDU (Robert Lodenkamper) writes:

>In article <1992Aug12.122024.26409@macc.wisc.edu> anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:

>   Utopia is so simple, if you work at it!  :-) It's all a
>   matter of giving and getting; our trouble is we want to do
>   the getting without doing the giving.  Sorry, can't work
>   that way, gotta give, and more than most people think.

>My purpose wasn't just to snipe at Jess's proposal --- even though it
>is, like all utopias, a tempting target.

>Instead I want to emphasize that Jess's utopia, the communist utopia,
>the libertarian utopia, the socialist utopia, the benevolent dictator
>utopia and any others I've forgotten all fail for the same reason ---
>they ignore human nature.

>It is necessary to do more than just make sure the budget balances for
>a utopian vision to become real --- the utopian vision must not ignore
>what appear to be fundamental truths about human nature.

Well, there are a *few* of us who stubbornly refuse to believe that human
nature includes greediness or hatred or prejudice.  All of these are traits we
learn, and they become ways by which we're separated from ourselves.

(I brought up this point at an InterVarsity meeting once, which I attended
just for fun, and managed to get one girl visibly upset.  She seemed
determined to believe that human nature was Evil.)

IMHO, Utopias are so very difficult for the very reason that they are so
simple....  (And of course, there is our undiminished determination to take
any revelation we receive and re-create it in our own image....)

Hey, I'm an unabashed idealist.

>- Bob

 - Joel,
		who just realized he transposed ``Todd'' to ``Trey'' in a previous
		posting and knows he's going to have to post a serious apology in
		the morning....
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: balistik@big-brother.nevada.edu (Shawn Hicks)
Subject: Re: Trip to Portland/Seattle
Organization: Not yet, but we're working on it...
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 17:40:33 GMT

In article <63997@cup.portal.com>, Furr@cup.portal.com (George Dalton Madison) writes:
>Shawn Hicks writes:
>>>GRRR!!  Why wasn't I told this *BEFORE* motss.con?  ;-{(##]
>>
>>George, dude, Please. We thought you *knew* about it... if anyone
>>had to know it was *you*.
>
>** HOW **?  Before the .con, I knew precisely *ONE* person
>in Portland.... who doesn't LIKE the PDX Eagle.

We knew precisely *no one* in Portland.  Anyway, where else would one go?
I didn't hear of any other leather/sleaze bars in PDX, and the Eagle was
in the .con package thoughtfully provided by Alan. (THANKS!)

>>his friend, FURR, who he was with at the bear hug. Naturally I had to
>>ask, "you mean George Madison?", to which he nodded and looked astonished.
>
>Hmm.... actually, this is starting to sound more like someone
>else.... I don't suppose this bear was either wearing fireman's
>gear or was referred to in your presence as "Sparky," was he?
>If it was the same guy, he was great fun to piss on.  ;-{)##]

Well it was the next day, so he wasn't in any sort of fireman's gear,
but I think he was refered to as Sparky.  I'm not sure.  He had short
black hair, and looked like he could cuddle for days. 

>I mean, I only played with three bears at that PDX 'Hug [I know,
>I know -- you're all shocked] and of the three, I think that only
>Sparky would be referred to by others as a "hunk".  (Benny is
>very attractive and in good shape, but not quite _impressive_
>enough in that way that gets you called a "hunk" -- and I never
>got 'round to exchanging names with the third furball. ;-{)##]

Never assume that what one person calls a hunk another will (or wont) 
too.  Benny might be just that impressive to me, or someone else.

"Never ASSUME -- you make an ASS out of U and ME!"
     -- Felix Unger

I'm sorry that you didn't, in fact, know of the Eagle.  Chris and I 
had expected to see you there.  I should have mentioned it to you.

:(

Shawn
From: adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Redefining masculinity
Date: 19 Aug 1992 11:29:07 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: mizar.usc.edu

In article <l951qdINN4ec@mizar.usc.edu> 
adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:

> He's started to send me 100-200 page letters in which he

Bozo's letters only seem that long.  They're really only
100-200 *lines* in length.

Arne

Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: ry@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (ryerson.schwark)
Subject: Re: Discipl(in)e
Organization: UNIX System Laboratories, Summit, NJ
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 04:23:38 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.204552.10557@microsoft.com> georgere@microsoft.com (George V. Reilly) writes:
>
>Dammit, I want to be punished only by Grandmama KKruella herself.
>No substitutes will do.

Your *WICKEDNESS* is too *GREAT* to be trusted to a deputy.  *REPENT*
of your *EVIL*!

KKruella
ry@usl.com
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: ECL4JN2@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU (Jack B. Nimble)
Subject: Citizen Cohn
Date: 20 Aug 92 00:21:08 PDT

     [Excerpts from the Los Angeles Times, TV Times, 8/16/92]

Premiering this Saturday on HBO as a made-for-cable movie is _Citizen
Cohn_, a biographical movie starring James Woods as Roy Cohn, the surly
chief counsel to Sen. Joseph McCarthy who became a national household
name and pariah of America's political left wing during the televised
Army-McCarthy hearings of 1953-54. The movie is based on Nicholas von
Hoffman's 1988 book of the same title.

The anti-Communist crusader who also prosecuted the Rosenbergs all the
way to the electric chair later became -- among many outrageous and
controversial things -- a law-flouting lawyer, a tax dodging financial
operator and an influential political fixer in New York City. Cohn, a
major celebrity of the Manhattan night-life scene for years, died of
cancer caused by AIDS in 1986.

The movie begins and ends with the venomous Cohn writhing in agony on
his hospital deathbed. A series of flashbacks and pain-induced
hallucinations dramatize his complex life story.

A lifetime friend and hero of the anti-Communist Republican right wing,
Cohn was simultaneously both a blatantly promiscuous homosexual and a
homophobe. He made speeches to conservative groups attacking gay rights
and, even as he was dying of AIDS, baldly lied on _60 Minutes_ when
directly asked if he was homosexual.

Despite this and much else, Cohn's bipartisan network of powerful pals
was awesome, from presidents and gossip columnists to mobsters and
cardinals. He was chummy with J. Edgar Hoover and Norman Mailer and
dated Barbara Walters.

Besides its premiere at 8 pm Saturday night, it will be repeated on
August 25, 27, and 31.

-jbn
From: Furr@cup.portal.com (George Dalton Madison)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: sexual attraction and paraphilias
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 92 21:17:24 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
  <1992Aug15.212316.19022@reed.edu>
  <1992Aug16.203820.13957@unlinfo.unl.edu> <1992Aug16.222950.11829@reed.edu>

Nelson Minar writes:
>ObDish: What's there in common between Sim Aberson and Robert Coren?

Aside from the fact they both have facial hair?  ;-)

[Y'all were *expecting* this comment -- I couldn't let you down.]
 
() Meekness: Uncommon patience in planning a revenge that
() is worth while.
()      -- Ambrose Bierce
-----
[> George D. Madison | NBCS: B8f+t+w-e+s+k+a!cv | Just say NO to razors! <]
[> It's a BEAR thing -- you wouldn't understand. <|> furr@cup.portal.com <]
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: tom@flood.com (Tom Chatt)
Subject: Re: Gay Homophobia (was Re: Too straight looking to be gay???) (was re: UNGAY GAY)
Organization: The Flood Group, Inc.  Torrance, Ca.
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 06:23:15 GMT

bobsarv@microsoft.com (Bob Sarver) writes:
| Again:  if flamboyant gays didn't act so bizarre, it would be a 
| hell of a lot easier for people on the edge of the closet to step
| across that threshhold.  It is simple human nature to avoid being
| associated with a group of people that stands out for socially 
| negative reasons.  Why do you resist such a basic conclusion 
| as this?

What it takes to step across that threshhold is integrity,
nothing more. Integrity is a characteristic exhibited both
by your heroes Tracy Thorne and Margaret Kammermeyer *and*
"flamboyant gays acting bizarre". It is not a characteristic
particularly exhibited by people cowering inside the threshhold
and whining about "socially negative" examples who one might
be associated with.

Bob, your account of "human nature" is a dismal echo of
Nuremburg. ("If those rich Jews didn't act so greedy, it would
be a hell of a lot easier for people on the edge of criticizing
the Third Reich to step across that threshhold. It is simple
human nature to avoid being associated with a group of people
that stands out for socially negative reasons.")

| It all depends on what is more important to you:  the right
| to act in a bizarre fashion, or political progress & social
| acceptance.

Both. What's the difference?

-- 
Tom Chatt                        \   Don't take offense, take action.
Internet: tom@flood.com           \    Speak up. When we remain silent,
UUCP: ...!uunet!flood!tom        / \     we oppress ourselves.
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: wearing symbols
Date: 17 Aug 92 10:58:31 GMT
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison


In article <wb9m1#j.jfh@netcom.com> jfh@netcom.com (Jack
Hamilton) writes:

>It's very unusual for a name in common use, for instance,
>to become private property.  The only example I can think of
>is the use of "Olympics".

Boy Scouts?

-- 
Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin
Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson
NeXTmail w/attachments: anderson@yak.macc.wisc.edu  Bitnet: anderson@wiscmacc
Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: spaz@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Trebor Strunderthuck)
Subject: Re: wearing symbols
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 14:00:57 GMT


-- 
-------------<<The Husky Cub>>---------------
<<            B2 f k g+ w+ c+              >>
<<        We Will, We Will Rock You        >>
---------------------------------------------
From: adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Snaps (no, not *that* kind, Elizabeth) (was Re: New queer terminology) (was Re: The media, again)
Date: 17 Aug 1992 12:46:11 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: mizar.usc.edu

In article <1992Aug17.185737.25163@tc.cornell.edu> 
shore@tc.cornell.edu writes:
> In article <l8vsg4INNt8n@mizar.usc.edu>, 
> adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:
> > So where do the snaps come from?  From the movie version of _Bell
> > Book and Candle_ (1958), starring Kim Novak as a beatnik/witch 
> > whose familiar is a cat named Pyewacket.  
>
> I don't buy this.  Snapping certainly predated "Bell, Book,
> and Candle," which only parodied it.  If you can document 
> a necessary connection between the two I'd be really interested
> in seeing it.

Any documentation I could offer would be purely anecdotal and
perhaps compromised by the fact that I'm thinking about what's
taken place in LA, which has always been and continues to be
more obsessed with the movies than any other city I've been been.
Do box office statistics lead Ithaca's local TV news broadcasts?  
I will point out here, though, that the older among the Queer 
Nationals I've met (and it's QN I'm talking about) *have* been 
movie queens.  In any case, I think it much more likely that
the source of the neo-beatnik look and attitude affected by 
Queers may be found in '50s movies than in some cultural memory 
of behaviors that have lain dormant for the last 35 years.
One look at the Queer coffeehouses in LA is enough to let
you know that they were inspired by Hollywood's idea of beatnik
hangouts rather than by the real thing.

Arne
From: drp@dosbears.UUCP (David R. Preston)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: mandatory service (was Re: Metzenbaum introduces Senate bill to end military ban)
Date: 12 Aug 92 18:46:17 GMT
Reply-To: drp@dosbears.uucp
Organization: DosBears

In article <1992Aug12.071020.7284@news.ysu.edu> ae642@yfn.ysu.edu (Kelley Miller) writes:
>
>
>>In article <1358@dosbears> drp@dosbears.uucp writes:
>>>jojo writes:
>>>>I think everyone should serve in the army for a year unless they are
>>>>a concientious objector in which case they are forced to fill
>>>>potholes in Boston roads for a few months.
>>>Sounds OK to me.
>>
>Oh?  How would it sound if it included women in equal participation with men?

Fine. What's your point? It wouldn't necessarily be filling potholes
or being in the infantry, the job would be appropriate for the person.
In the (formerly, West) German system, military service is encouraged
over community service by making the term 12 months for military, 16
for community service.

--
         David R. Preston   drp@dosbears.uucp dosbears@netcom.com
              Information gladly given but safety requires
               the avoidance of unnecessary conversation.
            D. R. Preston 584 Castro St. #614 SF CA 94114 USA
From: chloupek@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Too straight looking to be gay??? (was re: UNGAY GAY)
Date: 17 Aug 92 14:42:08 EDT

In article <1992Aug14.172701.3835@microsoft.com>, bobsarv@microsoft.com (Bob Sarver) writes:

Now that the flames have died down a little, I'd just like to try to make one
or two comments.   I still stick by my earlier statement that there is a bias
against the "feminine" gay man in the gay community, although I will agree that
there are bigots of *every* shape and form.
 
> 1.  Because many of the the more feminine types would rather be masculine, 
>     but just can't seem to get the hang of it;

Many *feminine* types are very masculine at their work, with their families,
etc.  They just do not choose to be masculine in a *safe* environment. 
>  
> Gay, masculine men who are happy being that way are threatening to
> feminine gays.  You threaten them.  It also disturbs feminine gays
> that a masc. gay man can move 'with the straight crowd'; you have
> betrayed the fem. gays by having close straight friends.
>
Are you saying "fem. gays" can't have close straight friends?    

Again, many "fem. gays" do "move with the straight crowd."   

There are many straights who do not have the problem with "fem. gays" that you
seem to have.  There are also many "fem. gays" that can act masculine and do so
out of fear for their jobs, families, safety, etc.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Frank R. Chloupek 
CHLOUPEK@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu 
Department of Physics -- *The* Ohio State University
(Not just a Ohio State University) 

"Einstein on the Beach            |        Army of Lovers
 Science out of reach             |
 Atoms sing along                 |      "The Particle Song"
 To Einstein on the beach"        |

Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: tdbear@tandon.com (Tom Barrett)
Subject: Just please shoot me : )
Organization: Tandon Corporation, Moorpark, CA
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1992 17:04:58 GMT

Just please shoot me if I should ever have to move to these
'forsaken places, but what with the economy... well, you have
to do what you have to do:

1) Boise, Idaho (HP's RISC printer controller house)
2) (Oh) Rochester, Minnesota (IBM's AS/400 design house)
3) Burlington, Vermont (another IBM RISC house)

Anyway, how (wimper) bad is the g/l live in these places?
What about the general quality of life (since I would prbably
have TONS of free time)?  How would they compare to, oh say,
living in a Greenwich Village flat and commuting an hour or so
to the Princeton area?

Thanks!

-- 
Tom Barrett (TDBear)    tdbear@tandon.com                 voice 805-378-6207
Tandon Corporation      tdbear@p6.f1006.n102.z1.fidonet.org fax 805-529-8895
Sr. HW Design Engineer  "War is Peace, No is Yes, And We're All Free!" 
[The views expressed herein may not be shared by the organization of origin]
From: stgprao@xing.unocal.com (Richard Ottolini)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: AIDS speech Wed @9PM EST Republican Convention
Date: 19 Aug 92 22:11:52 GMT
Organization: Unocal Corporation
Originator: stgprao@xing

In article <1992Aug19.195726.14371@ads.com> henry@ADS.COM (Henry Mensch) writes:
>stgprao@xing.unocal.com (Richard Ottolini) wrote: 
>->Title says all.
>->Speech by Ms. Fisher of the Detroit magnate family scheduled between
>->Wilson's and Mrs. Quayle's presentations.
>->The New York Times has had several articles explaining Ms. Fischer's
>->situation in the past few days.
>
>i hope they really did spell it out: rich white woman with aids.  very
>typical, no?  i can just hear it now: "why can't they all be like
>me?"

Read the articles first before you criticize another suffering human being.
According to her interview in the NYT Ms. Fisher did agonize about giving
a speech at all.  She knew knew she would get a lot of shit from both the
aids activists and conservative Republicans.  Her positions sound more like
the P.C. aids community than conservative republican.  For example, she refuses
to state how the person who infected her caught the virus because she didn't
want to get into the innocent victim/ bad victim trap.  In the end she decided
"silence equals death".

I am not a member of the Republican Party, nor support their positions, but
find some recent events interesting.  Like when one breaks past the ideological
rhetoric and ask "what if your [grand]daughter ..." sometimes they will give
an answer that contradicts the ideology.
From: nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: More PSU bashing (was Re: He calls this an introduction?!
Date: 20 Aug 92 00:59:24 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Aug20.005924.24858
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR

In article <92232.191642QAA@psuvm.psu.edu> QAA@psuvm.psu.edu (Tim Bieling) writes:
>Nelson says:
>>The only prejudice I've ever seen on soc.motss had to do with people
>>with PSUVM in their address.
>I love it, it's PSU bashing time again.

Huh? All I said was that in the past, people had been pre-judged on
the basis of being from PSUVM. Then you come here and complain that
you are being bashed. Weird.

ObMotss - my well-meaning but vaguely-clueless straight friend bought
me a button in San Francisco that said "The family tree ends here". He
was worried that I'd be upset, being called 'barren', and we relieved
when I laughed out loud.
-- 
                __
nelson@reed.edu \/              Death needs time for what it kills to grow in
Newsgroups: soc.motss