From: grant_jo@ripple.enet.dec.com (Joel Grant)
Subject: Generic Subject
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: 15 SEP 92 14:26:47 PDT


[note that I haven't changed the `subject' line  ;^)]

re: 3271  (Tom Warner)

>I understand what you've said perfectly, but we were talking about a shot
>at a particular Z-frame. You're right, it's hard to say exactly which frame
>he was hit at. What I'd like to see is the range(s) of Z-frames when the
>angle of supposed traversal would actually line up with the angle from the
>assassin's lair, taking into account both vertical and horizontal angles.
>Has any researcher done this?

	Not only do we not know at exactly what frame he was
	hit, but it is overwhelmingly likely that that frame
	was during the time the limo was obscured to Zapruder's
	view by the freeway sign.  No other photos show, so
	far as we can tell, the precise moment of impact.  Thus,
	we have a range of distance and a range of body positions,
	but we cannot calculate the angles precisely.  They depend
	heavily upon the position of the President's body at the
	moment of impact.  A slight turn one way or the other
	changes the angles significantly.

	We can infer from the photgraphic and medical evidence,
	as well as the condition of JFK's clothes, approximately
	what position he was in when he was hit.  He was almost
	certainly facing to his right with his right arm resting
	on the side of the limo.  You will note that this position
	elevates his right shoulder.  [Parenthetically: JFK's
	position in the limo, including his position relative
	to Governor Connally in the *approximate* positions they
	were in when they were struck by CE399 is best seen in
	slides from a home movie taken by a 13 year-old lad.
	(I cannot remember his name - you can find these photos
	in Robert McNeill's book _1963 - The Way We Were_ and
	that book is in the King Country library system)  The
	movie was taken near the beginning of the parade route,
	but the limo and the people in the limo are the same.
	The movie was taken from the President's side of the
	limo from right next to the limo and the images are
	very, very clear.]  Anyway...

	It is misleading to calculate the angles based on the
	right side of the trachea being scraped by the bullet.
	Note that the bullet exited just below the button on
	JFK's collar and nicked the *left* side of his tie
	on the way towards Governor Connally's back.  Trying to
	eliminate Oswald as a suspect because someone draws 
	lines on a map and ignores the detailed trajectory
	analysis, vertical and horizontal done by the HSCA
	is a major stretch.

>>	I also have a NYT copy and its table of contents is easily
>>	sufficient to find this information.  Try Appendix X.

>	"... each (fragment) had sufficient unmutilated area to provide the
>basis of an identification. Based on a comparison with test bullets fired
>from the C2766 rifle, the stretcher bullet and both bullet fragments were
>identified as having been from the c2766 rifle."

>	Other than an explanation of how such tests are done, including a
>discussion of different ways the tests can be confounded, that's all there is
>in the WCR about the bullets being from Oswald's MC. Nothing to counter my
>point that the limo fragments do not have sufficient unmutilated surface
>area to make an identification "to the exclusion of all other rifles." Sorry.

	The WC ballistics experts concluded that the stretcher bullet
	and the limo fragments came from C2766.  There is only one
	C2766 in the world.    

>>	Dr. Guinn's conclusion was that the fragments found in
>>	John Connally's wrist almost certainly came from CE399.
>>	NAA does not provide 100% certainty but it certainly
>>	works at a level of precision notably in excess of what
>>	you suggest.

>I'll leave this one to Bruce, who knows more about this than me. (Bruce
>has pointed out in other posts that there were actually several differences
>in the composition of CE399 and the fragment from Connally's wrist, which
>Guinn apparently glossed over. I stand by my statement that, at best, such a
>test can show that the bullet was of the same manufacture and lacks the
>precision ascribed to it by Joel. By the way, did Guinn try and compare the
>wrist fragment to either of the limo fragments?)

	I don't recall how many fragments he matched, even though
	the analysis has been in this forum a couple of times already.
	
	Bruce Schuck's amateur analysis requires at least one of
	two situations to be true:

	1. Bruce knows more about NAA than Dr. Guinn.
	2. Dr. Guinn is lying about his test results.

	Since I am no more of an NAA expert than Bruce or you, I
	can only ask why, if Dr. Guinn was determined to lie about
	his results, he chose the one way that would absolutely 
	guarantee he would be caught.  Namely, instead of publishing
	"doctored" data, he chose to publish data which, were 
	Bruce correct, would immediately be recognized as phony
	by any NAA expert.  And it is safe to conclude that if
	even one such specialist believed that Dr. Guinn's data
	did not support his conclusions, we would have heard about
	it, in spades, by now.

>>	I don't suppose you expect me to obtain and then re-type
>>	all 27 volumes of the Warren Report, all 14 volumes
>>	of the HSCA, etc. etc. etc.?

>If you think that any portion of these has any evidence that Oswald fired
>c2766, or any other rifle, or was on the sixth floor of the TSBD at the time,
>then you could at least refer the rest of us to this evidence.

	May I defer an answer to this until I can complete (if
	I ever get a chance!  ;^)  ) the Lattimer presentation?
	I am not going through Lattimer to try to show that he
	had all the answers, that he was perfect, whatever.  The
	point is to be able to give a structured view of the
	evidence against Lee Harvey Oswald.  In other words, to
	answer your question above.

>>	Where is your evidence than anyone else was involved?

>Same place. One Mannlicher Carcano, three empty cartridges, no fingerprints
>anywhere on the rifle, one pristine bullet that somehow winds up just lying
>there on a stretcher, at least five separate wounds to JFK and Connally, a
>hit to a curb and a hit of shrapnel or fragment to a bystander.

	I will cover all of this systematically.

>Take the most generous interpretation scientifically possible: one bullet hit
>JFK's head, one bullet caused all of Connally's wounds, one bullet caused
>both of JFK's non-fatal wounds, and one hit the curb. That's still one too many
>bullets, not to mention that one of these four bullets has to come out as
>pristine as CE399, which not even a supposed back-to-throat JFK traversing hit
>would allow.

>There's oodles more, such as the 2nd-floor lunchroom encounter, and of course,
>the assassination of Oswald at the jail by a Dallas mafia figure.

	Ah yes!  Typical mafia hit technique.  In the crowded basement
	of a jail, on national television.   ;^)

Joel Grant  (speaking on his own behalf)