From: btiffany@pbs.org
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Response to Rob Strom and Introduction
Date: 8 Apr 92 12:56:39 GMT
Distribution: alt
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA

#1867

Subject: Re: Response to Rob Strom and Introduction
From: dpeders1@cc.swarthmore.edu (Daniel Pedersen)
Date: 6 Apr 92 21:35:28 GMT

>Judasim has definitely survived, although it isn't
>(and no-one claims that it is) the same as the Judaism practiced at the time
>of the Temple.
> [...]
>About the "current system" I mentioned:  Yes, when the era of the Temple
>came to an end, Judasim had to deal with the fact that the Temple was no
>longer available as a focus for ritual and observance.  So a new system of
>practice had to be adopted, so there was a new system for atoning for sins,
>among other things.

By what authority was a new system instituted?  Can I simply override God's
Word and substitute my own system?  The Rabbinic Jews are fond of asserting
that what they practice is the same thing that was given at Sinai, which is,
of course, rather disingenuous of them.  So look who has a "different
religion"!

>I didn't say that I am "paying for my sins."  I was pointing out that
>sacrifices are no longer needed for the Jewish process of having sins
>forgiven.

When did God change it?

>[In] Judaism, the concept of sin is a private one, and does not lend itself (if
>you'll pardon the pun) to analogies with bank accounts where Jesus can
>transfer others' sins to his account.

Is that why -- after David committed adultery with Bathsheba and murdered her
husband Uriah (2 Samuel 11:1-17), he said, "I have sinned against the Lord"
(2 Samuel 12:13), and again in Psalm 51:4-5:

	"Against You, You only, have I sinned, and done what is evil in
	Your sight, so that You are justified when You speak, and blameless
	when You judge.  Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in
	sin my mother conceived me."

?  It also says in Psalm 49:7-9:  "No man can by any means redeem his
brother, or give to God a ransom for him -- for the redemption of his soul
is costly, and he should cease trying forever -- that he should live on
eternally; that he should not see the pit."

Proverbs 20:9 asks:  "Who can say, 'I have cleansed my heart, I am pure
from my sin'?"  And again, Psalm 143:2 says:  "IN YOUR SIGHT NO MAN LIVING
IS RIGHTEOUS."  "The heart is more deceitful than all else, and is
desperately sick", proclaims Yirmeyahu (Jeremiah 17:9), and Yeshayahu says,
"For all of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous
deeds are like a filthy garment ..." (Isaiah 64:6).  Again, Isaiah 59:2
says: "But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God,
and your sins have hid His face from you, so that He does not hear."  What
is the result?  According to Ezekiel 18:4, THE SOUL WHO SINS WILL DIE.

Now, just when did Adonai change His mind, and say sin isn't so bad any more,
it's just a private matter betwen men, and doesn't affect one's relationship
with God?  He said in Leviticus 17:11 that it is the blood that makes
atonement.  When did God change that?  Since when does saying "I'm sorry"
satisfy the Lord's justice?

>> Don't forget that the first three commandments (Deut. 5:6-15) deal with
>> direct responcibility to God, not to other people. You can't get your
>> sins against God forgiven without a sacrifice. What you say above, is
>> not based on Tanach.
> 
>That's true; it's not based _entirely_ upon the Tanach.  But Judasim is not
>based entirely on the Tanach.  there are many layers of interpretations
>(Mishnah, Gemarah, Shulchan 'Aruch, commentaries, Shu"t =questions and
>answers, and so on and so forth. . .) that have aquired the weight of law,
>and sometimes supersede or reinterpret the Tanach.  So you cannot say that
>if something is not based on Tanach, then it is not Jewish.

Thus, the word of the rabbis supersedes the Word of God.  Rightly did Yeshua
say to the P'rushim (Mark 7:13), "With your tradition which you had handed
down to you, you nullify the Word of God!"  And again, in Matthew 15:6-9
He quotes Isaiah 29:13, saying

	By your tradition you make null and void the word of God!  You
	hyprocrites!  Yesha'yahu was right when he prophesied about you,
	"These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far
	away from me.  Their worship of me is useless, because they teach
	man-made rules as if they were doctrines."

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
		Surely our griefs He Himself bore, and our sorrows He carried;
     /\		... He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was
____/__\____	crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being
\  / || \  /	fell upon Him, and by His scourging we are healed.  All of us
 \/--++--\/	like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own
 /\  ||  /\	way; but the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on
/  \ || /  \	Him. ... By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will
----\--/----	justify the many, as He will bear their iniquities.
     \/							-- Isaiah 53
		Bruce Tiffany