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Date:         Thu, 24 Sep 1992 16:06:00 CST
From:         GOS@UHDBIT.BITNET
Subject:      documentation costs

To anyone who can help,
   We here at UHD have encountered a question that we cannot answer.  Maybe
someone out there can help us out.  We need to know if anyone has a figure
for the cost of creating computer documentation.  We are looking for a cost
per page figure.  Does anyone know if such a figure exists and where we
can find it?

Appreciate it,
Michael Gos
Univ. of Houston-Downtown
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Date:         Sat, 3 Oct 1992 15:46:00 CDT
From:         Fred Kemp <YKFOK@TTACS.BITNET>
Subject:      programming as foreign

Regarding the substitution of a computer language for a foreign
language requirement.  I got the University of Texas to do that,
and I think Paul Taylor has too, for the languages BASIC and
Turbo Pascal.  Don't want to be a computer linguist snob, but I'm
not sure that Hypertalk or whatever *Toolbook* uses falls into
the category of programming languages, although as the "usual"
languages get more and more friendly they approach the ease of
"authoring" tools like Hypercard.  My department had no idea
about how hard or how valuable BASIC and Turbo Pascal were, but I
do remember that some computer science people were leery of
granting me competence in Turbo (although I had written thousands
of line of working code) because Borland's Turbo Pascal was
consider too easy compared with earlier Pascals, although it
could do much more.  Sort of like the language requirement
rejecting modern French because it relates too closely to the
modern world.

As far as Stuart Selber's implication that studying computer
languages constitutes as much a "cultural study" as a natural
foreign language, I agree.  There is a "culture" of computer
users, one that may transcend the once sacrosanct borders defined
by natural languages.  Heady stuff for scholars heavily invested
in studying the past.  Fred Kemp, TTU
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Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 19:53:04 EST
From:         "(Jim Porter)" <jporter@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Basic writing, one more time
              Sep 30, 92 7:38 pm

>Dave Roberts has done me (and, I suspect, most if not all of us) a real
>service by forwarding his letter.  I don't know how many times recently
>that I've been forced to argue and reargue this old but important issue; but
>I do know how often I'll avail myself of Dave's brilliant and telling
>summary of trends and research.  Again, Dave--thanks heaps.

Yes, double thanks--that letter is an important statement about
the role of grammar in writing instruction.  Is it published
anywhere? If not, it should be--in a publication that will
reach as many writing teachers as possible.

---------------
Jim Porter
Purdue University
jporter@mace.cc.purdue.edu
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Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1992 13:49:00 EST
From:         BECKY RICKLY <00RJRICKLY@BSUVAX1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Welcome Mike Hassett!

Good to have you aboard, Mike.  I'd love to hear more about using
Daedalus in the Writing Lab.  Here we use it exclusively in writing
classes.

Becky Rickly
00rjrickly@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu
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Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 12:54:00 EST
From:         MARY JANE SCHRAMM <01MJSCHRAMM@BSUVAX1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Welcome Mike Hassett!

Actually, Becky, our Writing Center tutors will be using Interchange at
two staff meetings this term and more next term.  This allows us to discuss
in the medium we're trying to teach--writing.  We haven't used it in
tutorial settings yet.  Any ideas?

Cindy Johanek (via Mary Jane Schramm)
00cljohanek@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu
From: jcm5337@USL.EDU ((McDonald James C))
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: Re: Wyoming Resolution
Date: 5 Oct 92 15:34:31 GMT
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David, I'll discuss the idea of inviting regents and legislators to campus with
the president of the faculty senate and chair of the campus AAUP chapter this
week and pass the idea along to faculty at other schools.
  I think a reality check would be good for Louisiana universities too, although
I don't think people would find many faculty who are teaching one or even two
classes who don't also have administrative duties--some, but not many--but it
would be healthy for us to know and to discuss our mission.  In the midst of
this budget crisis, the administration here is upping its demands for research
and publications for tenure and promotion without increasing support for
research.  So the faculty is looking at increased teaching and research loads
here.  Whatever is said about the importance of teaching, the money and prestige
flow to the schools and faculty who publish a lot.  I don't know how schools
can effectively resist that.
   Jim McDonald
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Date:         Thu, 1 Oct 1992 13:15:34 CDT
From:         Wes Chapman <WESCHAP@UIUCVMD.BITNET>
Subject:      small library results

Thanks to all who contributed ideas for the small library of useful
writing books.  Here's the full list of suggestions:
-Lanham's _Revising Prose_
-parts of Franklin's autobiography on teaching oneself to write
-part of Poe's review of _Twice-Told Tales_ on making every word count
-handbooks of major citation systems
-Goldberg's _Writing Down the Bones_
-Williams' _Style_
-Bean and Ramage's _Writing Argument_
-Mike Rose's autobiography
-Bruffee's _Short Course_
-Elbow and Belanoff's _Community of Writers_ and _Sharing and
Responding_
-Murray's _Craft of Revision_ and _Write to Learn_
-Bolter's _Writing Space_
-Barthe's _Writing Degree Zero_
-something by Derrida
-Stein's _Useful Knowledge_

What wll I recommend to the committee?  Well...a handbook w/ citation stuff, 1
of the Lanhams(probably Revising Prose),Williams's Style,  and _Sharing
and Responding_, for sure (thanksfor the tip on this last--I hadn't read
it, and it's great!).  Oddly enough, I had thought of _Writing Down the
Bones_, but had dismissed the idea as a persoanl quirk on my part; now
I'm not so sure that's it's so quirky, so I'll bring it up and see what
the response is.  Also, perhaps, _Writing Without Teachers_; the title
might attract a student to a practice that she may have ignored when it
was discussed in her writing class.  The snippets of things--from
Franklin's Autobio. etc.--would be too hard tokeep in place without a
filing system of some kind, so I'll shelve that idea for the time being.
The 2 Murray books I haven't read, but I'll check those out.  I take
the _Writing Space_ suggestion seriously, because I find that the book
does make one think about writing practices, but it would be too hard to
sell the idea even if I thought that the kind of students who are going
to use these books (if any) would be at all likely to have the time or
basic curiousity to make use of Writing Space as one might.  As for
Barthes, Derrida, and Gertrude Stein--gimme a break, Joe! :-)
Thanks again to all,Wes ChapmanIllinois Wesleyan
Universityweschap@uiucvmd.bitnet
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Date:         Fri, 25 Sep 1992 12:56:58 EDT
From:         rselfe@MTU.EDU
Subject:      immersion writing instruction

Anybody have any cites for the notion of "total immersion instruction"?  We
were talking about it as a method of writing instruction.  References for
foreign language instruction (where I assume the notion began) and more
significantly for me, as a method of writing instruction would be greatly
appreciated.


Dickie Selfe              rselfe@mtu.edu
Humanities Dept.          906-487-3225
Michigan Technological U.
Houghton, MI   49931
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Date:         Fri, 2 Oct 1992 14:10:00 EST
From:         BECKY RICKLY <00RJRICKLY@BSUVAX1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Basic writing, again and again

MER, you wrote:
>
>              For example, I've had students tell me that I ruined ED for them
>              for life by asking them to sing poems to the tune of the Yellow
>              Rose of Texas, as suggested by a megabunnie about 1-1/2 yrs ago.

I ruin ED further by asking them to sing poems to the tune of Amazing
Grace, the old coke jingle ("I'd like to teach the world to sing..."),
and, best of all, the Gilligan's Island theme.  When I asked students
to memorize  a poem of their choice, a few got together and performed
an ED poem using rap techniques.
>
>             'Course another approach related to imitatio is parody.
>              I still chuckle over the one ED parody based on the
>              Texas Chainsaw Massacre that I got fairly recently, entitled:
>
>                             "I Saw a Buzz Saw when I Died"
>
>              If there is interest, I'll try to dig it up and post it......mer

Love to see it, Mer--I had a student parody Poe's Black Cat when
writing about dissecting a cat in biology.  Students are often much
brighter than we allow them to be in our classes.


Becky Rickly
Ball State University
00RJRICKLY@LEO.BSUVC.BSU.EDU
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Date:         Fri, 2 Oct 1992 21:12:00 EST
From:         "JEFFREY R. GALIN" <GALIN@PITTVMS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: More Reading--New in Print

I know of the book but haven't read it.  I do know Myron.  Good tenis
player.  Likes to play with LANs at the University of Alabama.  He also
wrote the on-line handbook for Norton's TEXTRA.  Drop him a note.  He'll
write back.  Hope you aren't mad at me Myron.  I couldn't resist.  Oh
yeah, he's a member of this list.
jrg
PS I promice I'll look for a copy
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Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 07:35:49 EST
From:         "(Jim Porter)" <jporter@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Basic writing, one more time
              Sep 28, 92 8:02 pm

>teaching grammar.  Why should she resist the trend in our department (
>albeit uninformed, as I see it)?  Help, help!!

Karen ... Tell your colleague to look at George Hillocks' _Research
on Written Composition_ (NCRE & ERIC/RCS, 1986).  Hillocks does
a meta-analysis of empirical studies comparing various approaches
to teaching composition.  Of the six (I think) approaches considered,
the "grammar approach" is the only one that produces negative
results--i.e., the only one that harms students more than helps
them.

--------------------
Jim Porter
Purdue University
jporter@mace.cc.purdue.edu
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Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 10:12:52 EST
From:         "(Jim Porter)" <jporter@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: class size
              Oct 5, 92 7:20 pm

In Fall 1991 we were bumped up to a 26 student maximum for
first-year composition, tech writing, and business writing.
For computer lab sections of same, the limit was bumped
from 18 to 20.

Another reason to move writing courses into computer labs ...

--------------------
Jim Porter
Purdue University
jporter@mace.cc.purdue.edu
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Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 08:16:39 -0600
From:         RONRON@USU.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Basic writing, one more time

To Mary Jane Schramm -- The "Closing the Books [not Doors -- how could I have sa
   id that] on Alchemy" article specifically enjoins us to teach grammatical
structures. Further, it attacks all studies which show no correlation
between grammatical knowledge and writing competence, calling them
"suspect."  Ron Shook (Ronron@usu)
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Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 11:01:00 CDT
From:         GOS@UHDBIT.BITNET
Subject:      grammar in the composition class

Karen,
   The most convincing argument, in my opinion, of why we shouldn't teach
grammar in writing classes is still Hillocks.  While it it old, and there
was some discussion about his criteria for selecting studies, it really
was the original evidence that grammar teaching makes writing worse.
   Besides, it was a meta-analysis :-)

Michael Gos
UHD
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Date:         Sat, 3 Oct 1992 07:23:15 HST
From:         James Shimabukuro <JAMESS@UHUNIX.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Basic writing, again and again

Ron Shook: Imitatio begets more than just schemata.  That's the problem.  We
can't be sure that the inexperienced writer is imitating the mode, style,
principles, etc., as well as the content.  We may want them to learn to place
their own clothes in Steinbeck's suitcase, but we may end up with Steinbeck
in Steinbeck.

Jim Shimabukuro
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Date:         Fri, 2 Oct 1992 09:26:23 MST
From:         Elizabeth Vander Lei <IDEAV@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      thank-you, Dickie

A belated but most heartfelt thanks, Dickie, for your description of that N. Mi
chigan fall.  I read it aloud to several colleagues gathered in my office,
and we were all transported from the travails of 100 degrees to the
unrivalled beauty of the trees.  I could almost taste the applesauce my Mom
always makes this time of year from fresh Michigan apples.  Sigh.

Elizabeth Vander Lei
Assistant Director of First Year Composition
Arizona State University
IDEAV@ASUACAD
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Date:         Mon, 5 Oct 1992 04:59:00 EDT
From:         "Composition Digest (Robert Royar,
              Moderator)" <R0MILL01@ULKYVX.BITNET>
Subject:      (Fwd: *C&CD*) Re: silence on MBU (7)

Date:         Sun, 04 Oct 1992 12:59:30 EDT
From:         IN%"RobertRoyar@Delphi.com" Robert Royar (C&CD Moderator)
Message-id:   <1992Oct04.125930.1.Grendel.Lair@Cratylus>
Subject:      Re: silence on MBU (7)
Reply-to:     IN%"R0MILL01@ULKYVX.LOUISVILLE.EDU"  C&CD
Organization: Cratylus Educational Software

As Fred Kemp pointed out Bouncing mail can be a problem.  Let me describe
two recent C&CD bouncing episodes.  The first a specific example of a
problem I've never had before, the second a specific example of a problem
that's occuring more frequently lately.

Example 1: What to do when you've just subscribed to a high volume list
that's not what you first thought it was.

Three weeks ago I received a subscription request from an individual (with
no real name just one of those generic (usually temporary) ids.  I added the
person to the list and sent the first Digest (50K+).  The UofL Vax cluster
got upgraded the next day and was down for 48hrs.  When I logged on to my
remote account (at Delphi) two days later, I found a mail file of 500K on
the system.  The file was from the new subscriber who had managed to
concatenate the digest issue into a giant file and reply to that issue.
I've no idea what this user had to say about the issue--perhaps "unsub".  I
deleted the giant file and removed the name from the list.

Example 2: Our machine is getting old and we want to get a new one with a
nifto name, but we won't alias the old name anymore

I'm beginning to get bouncing mail from sites that have changed their node
names and failed to tell the list owners to change the mailing files.  So
now that compos@dololly.bitnet is compos_list@snigledeeoops.petry.podunk.edu
the mail bounces.  I take them off the list, and I'm inundated with
individual messages from readers at snigledeeoops.petry.podunk.edu to the
effect "what gives, where's my subscription?"

 -- Robert Royar (RobertRoyar@Delphi.com) New York Institute of Technology
    "Do not search for the truth. Simply cease to cherish opinion"
                                           - Sengstan, Third Zen Patriarch

------------------------------
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Date:         Sun, 4 Oct 1992 05:20:21 HST
From:         James Shimabukuro <JAMESS@UHUNIX.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Basic writing, again and again

David E. Schwalm: "many instructors distrust copying..." because it's based
on the premise that the mind is a muscle that will benefit from "exercise."
The mind isn't, and mental push-ups won't strengthen it.  Those who are able
to extract structure via imitation could do so via readings, etc., as you
suggest.

Jim Shimabukuro
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Date:         Mon, 5 Oct 1992 10:50:49 -0400
From:         Lili Velez <lv08+%ANDREW.CMU.EDU@CARNEGIE.BITNET>
Subject:      Computer languages _can_ meet requirements...

Hey, Fred -- CMU will let you use a computer language as a "natural"
language.  In the Rhetoric program, our requirement is for a
"Language/Tool", and preferably a "Tool", something which will be
directly useful in your research. I felt I had to make a more elaborate
argument for my competency in Spanish than I did for my Research Methods.

Lili
Rhet in the Blue Linen Labcoat
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Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 08:41:22 EDT
From:         mer <MROSE01@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Basic writing, again and again

James:

              Here I venture into the realm of reactionary pedagogy, by
              offering the suggestion that the reason why the Korean business-
              man improved so rapidly through memorization and performance is
              by internalizing the phrasing and rhythms of your favorite
              rubber chicken dinner speaker and mine, RR.("There you go again")

              I suggest that we renegotiate our teaching philosophies with that
              of memorization and recitation--and not just in ESL contexts--
              by way of analogy to the training process of that avant-garde
              and "progressive" field of jazz pedagogy.

              Every jazz performer worth h/her salt goes through a process of
              memorizing *dozens* of "old standards" so that s/he can perform
              them, and improvise from them, without recourse to sheet music.
              Also, as part of the training in performance and improvisation,
              every student spends a lot of time transcribing the solos of
              diverse performers, note for note, on the very songs memorized.
              Then that student learns the articulation and phrasing of those
              solos note for note to the point of memorization, so that she can
              play like Sonny Rollins or John Coltrane, or Wes Montgomery or
              Pat Metheny, Miles Davis of Wynton Marsalis.

         Only then is the student deemed prepared to develop h/her own voice.

                                                          Bebop Lives!

                                                              mer
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Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 17:56:34 EDT
From:         mer <MROSE01@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Basic writing, again and again
              6 Oct 1992 17:07:32 -0400 from <R_CONNORS@UNHH.UNH.EDU>

Bob and Wes:

                The question of jazz versus new age is not how many
                key changes occur (Miles' So What and Trane's Impressions
                both only have two chords), but the crisp, lively
                articulation of melodic expression with full command
                of the range of sonorities on the instrument--tone, attack,
                sustain of that note on that instrument, and the contingent,
                intersubjective exchange, the "conversation" metaphor
                (a la Bakhtin) found in"Sonny's Blues."
                Unity emerging spontaneously out of diversity.

                The problem with NA is not complexity, but subtlety exemplified
                by consumate mastery of the instrument and of the forms of
                musical expression.

                When all the edges are smoothed out, what you have is a puddle.
                                   A soporific muddle

                                                "Take Sominex tonight, and...."

                                                            mer
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Date:         Sun, 27 Sep 1992 20:45:40 -0600
From:         LHAMPLYONS@CUDNVR.DENVER.COLORADO.EDU
Subject:      Re: ...and I thought heaven was Iowa

Iowa may indeed be a little piece of heaven, but after 3 days in the NorthWest
of Colorado I can say that Colorado is close to heaven too!  The aspen were
quaking at their golden peak.  However, this is the only time of year when I
miss Michigam--the northerly part of it in particular.  Every fall we'd go to
the UP and wallow, literally and figurativey, in the leaves.  No colors like
them anywhere!  Tell me, Dickie or Cindy, what I'm missin'
Liz    :-(
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