Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 14:27:05 CDT
From:         Tom Brewer <NOTTMB@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Security of salvation?
              8 Oct 1992 15:12:46 -0400 from <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>

On Thu, 8 Oct 1992 15:12:46 -0400 Eric James Ewanco said:

> Excerpts from christia: 8-Oct-92 Re: Security of salvation? Jesse
> Carnes@LSUVM.BITNE (497)
>
>> Unless our God is insane ... and He is not ... then it is logically
>> impossible for Scripture to present citations for both sides of this
>> case.  Now, there are "christians" and there are Regenerate Christians."
>> Anything else is pure madness.
>> The former group may indeed fall away ... for they have left nothing to speak
>> of, but the latter group maynot ... indeed, they CANNOT fall away, for how
>> could Jesus be speaking the truth in John 6:38-40 if the contrary were so?
>
>
> Well, Jesse, the only thing I have to say is that I certainly DO believe
> that Scripture DOES present evidence for both sides, but of course the
> truth is only one or the other.  But unfortunately, different people
> interpret the evidence in different ways and come up with conflicting
> opinions on what it means.
>
> Personally I see FAR too many verses suggesting we can fall away to
> suggest that we can't.  Why did Jesus warn us against sin?  Why did he
> say that anyone who called his brother "You Fool!" was in danger of
> hell?  Why did he emphasize repentance and conversion for salvation so
> much?  So much of what Jesus said doesn't make sense if we assume we
> cannot fall away.

Jesus warned against sin because it has effects on both sides of the grave.
The saved for example are not immune from AIDS contracted by adultery.
Also, God is Holy and we are told to be Holy.
But none of this means the elect can become UNelect.

>                   I don't think that the verses you quote are
> conclusive proof of the doctrine you offer.  It is possible to
> misinterpret verses.   What does Jesus mean by "lose"?  Does he mean,
> misplace accidentally, or does he mean it is impossible for them to
> leave even of their own volition? I see "snatch" even more as a word
> that means that the sheep will never involuntarily be led away, but does
> not preclude one of them from leaving of its own volition.

So does the sheep just wander off and get lost of its own volition? If so,
doesn't that sound like one of these will be lost? And if Jesus says none
of His sheep will be lost, then whose sheep are they that you are talking
about?

> Then there's the argument that since you can't fall away, anyone who
> does ostensibly fall away was never saved in the first place.  This
> presents the problem that, although maybe once you're saved, you're
> always saved, you can never know for sure if you're saved!!  There are
> people who are converted and [appear?] to be true Christians for many
> years, even as zealous as you, even ministers, but who later reject the
> faith and stop being Christians.  These people, while they are
> [supposedly?] Christians, are even indistinguishable from those who
> never fall away.  Indeed they themselves seem to think that they are
> saved while they are Christians.  So how is one to know if one is really
> saved, or if one's salvation didn't "take"?   From what I remember of
> what I was taught about Calvinism in high school history class, one
> cannot know if one is one of the elect, so you act like you are anyway.
> Hence there is no "assurance"; while once you are saved you cannot lose
> your salvation, you can never know if you were saved in the first place!!
>
> Eric

How are you defining "converted"? If converted, they stay converted. There
are those who appear to be converted, but we are not called to be fruit
inspectors, just observers. Many people will appear to be converted, act
saved, and think they are Christians; but that doesn't change the fact that
true elect sons of God will never fall away.

How can you know if you are saved? Believe God's gospel. That's what it means
to have faith in the gospel.

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of
God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on
the name of the Son of God." I Jn 5:13

Tom Brewer

"The greatest and most ancient Church known to God's people, founded and
 organized by the Father, Son and Holy Spirit at Jerusalem and spread to the
 hearts of believers everywhere, that Church which has the Word of God and
 faith which comes down to the elect after having been announced to men by
 the Prophets and Apostles. For with this Church, because of her divine
 origin, all men must agree ... and it is in her that the elect everywhere
 have maintained the Gospel of Jesus Christ."
    ---St. Thomas, Against Catholicism, c. 1992 A.D.