From: marcogan@student.anu.edu.au
Subject: Re: How do axioms really work?
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 01:46:47 GMT

In the ongoing debate, KJ says (referring to tech 8 bows doing no more
damage than tech 7s):

>That sounds good to me (the excess energy gets drained away by the
Everlaws
>perhaps).

Nope, I don't think so. There is no excess energy in the first place.
Remember the 'excess energy' is only the hypothetical energy that *would*
exeist if the bow were fired under tech 8+ axioms. What I am saying is that
_physics is different under tech axiom 7_. Physics as we (Core Earthers)
understand it is contigent upon the axioms of our world (and perhaps some
world laws, like say a 'Law of Einstein': no FTL travel, and only certain
extreme kinds of time travel). Physics in the Living Land is different, as
is physics in the Nile (allowing for the Law of Action), as is physics in
Aysle (how many spells give a whit about the various laws of
thermodynamics?)

In another post:

>Of course, that leads to the question of why you can't do the same
>thing with all equipment (ie, if you disconnect with your 9mm pistol
>in Orrorsh, why doesn't it still work but at an equivalent level of
>Orrorsh Tech level guns?) so maybe that isn't such a good idea after
>all.... 

Here's a simple (material-based) rule: If a contradiction is created by
using some materials in a manner not allowed at the tech level, then the
materials function at best as if they were of the lower tech level (i.e, a
longbow in Tech 7 does shortbow damage). If the contradiction relies upon
new parts, substances, or structures, then the device will malfunction
(sice its essentail components are not supported). So a 9mm automatic won't
work in Orrosh (for various reasons apparent to those with more gunsmithing
know-how that I will be able to explain)

Kevlar in Aysle will function like heavy cloth or leather, but will
gradually disintegerate, since it is not a material supported by Aysle's
Tech axiom. Or it will just transform into a suit of chainmail... More
generally, substances not supportde in the tech level will act like
whatever they are most like at the avialble tech level, before they fall to
bits.

Jim again:
>Actually, the intuitive understanding should only come into play when a 
>character transforms to a new reality, not when he disconnects.  So a 
>disconnected edeinos in Core Earth may be able to use a gun now, but he
>still doesn't know how it works.  If he transforms though, he has become
>a part of that reality and the 'intuitive knowledge' is more a reflection
>of his new ability to understand how it works rather than an immediate 
>understanding of how it works (ie, if you tell the transformed edeinos
>how his gun works he'll understand you, but on his own will not know the
>physics of it).

That's different, I guess. When a charcter transforms, I always think of
the turning into 'the person they would have been, had they grown up under
those axioms'. This will certainly include axiom-specific knowledge. My
original objection was to the assumption that when the tech axiom of the
Cyberpapacy was bumped up, some people suddenly 'understood'
cybertechnology. Even under Jim's explanation, that falls flat: they would
simply be able to understand technology. And I'm not sure if that kind of
artificial meddling with the axioms will change people the way transforming
does. Remember that people can (for example) live at tech level 14 in a
tech 22 cosm and have no inkling of the possibilities of the higher
technology, so tinkering with any of the axioms in an upward direction will
not affect the way anybody lives; it just affects the way they *can* live.
(IMHO, naturally)

-------------------------------------------------------------------
"Those who speak, do not know   	       	Mark Cogan
 Those who know, do not speak"  	       	marcogan@student.anu.edu.au