From: rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Problems with Paul's history of Jesus
Date: 16 Nov 92 15:36:11 GMT
Organization: CERL-EE, Georgia Institue of Technology

In article <fVfuWiq@quack.sac.ca.us> pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey) writes:

I ask again, why is the JPS a better translation?  Are we supposed to
believe that the translators of the JPS have master both Hebrew and English,
but no one else can do this?  I ask this sincerely.

Paul Harvey, do you hold the OT as authoritive and say the NT is the Apostle 
Paul's version?

Now back to the subject.  The are several reverences to a coming one
to be pierced.  All of the English translations I have used the word
pierced, with the exception of the alternate variation of Isaiah 53:5 in
the NASB, which uses the word 'wounded.'

    Psalms 22:16 (NIV)   Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men 
    has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. 

    Isaiah 53:5 (NIV)   But he was pierced for our transgressions, 
    he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought 
    us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. 

    Zechariah 12:9 (NIV)   On that day I will set out to destroy all 
    the nations that attack Jerusalem. 

    Zechariah 12:10 (NIV)   "And I will pour out on the house of 
    David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and 
    supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, 
    and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and 
    grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 

    Zechariah 13:7 (NIV)   "Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, 
    against the man who is close to me!" declares the LORD Almighty. 
    "Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered, and I 
    will turn my hand against the little ones. 

    John 19:34 (NIV)   Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' 
    side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. 

    John 19:37 (NIV)   and, as another scripture says, "They will 
    look on the one they have pierced." 

    Revelation 1:7 (NIV)   Look, he is coming with the clouds, and 
    every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the 
    peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! 
    Amen. 

|In article <74722@hydra.gatech.EDU> 
|rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts) writes:
|>Also in Malachi 3:1 we see the LORD himself saying that HE is coming.
|>    Malachi 3:1 (NIV)   "See, I will send my messenger, who will 
|>    prepare the way before ME. Then suddenly the Lord you are 
|>    seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, 
|>    whom you desire, will come," says the LORD Almighty. 
|
|Malachi3:1(JPS): Behold, I am sending My messenger to clear the way
|before Me, and the Lord whom you seek shall come to His Temple suddenly.
|As for the angel of the covenant(a) that you desire, he is already
|coming.
|a: Apparently the messenger of the previous sentence is regarded as
|Israel's tutelary angel.

Apparently?

|>They were expecting a prophet to restore, but also there was to be
|>a Savior and a new covenant.  Jesus fulfilled the grace part the
|>first time he was on earth, but he will restore the Israel of God,
|>when he returns.
|>    Isaiah 61:1-3 (NIV)   The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, 
|>    because the LORD has anointed me to preach good news to the 
|>    poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim 
|>    freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the 
|>    prisoners, {2} to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor and the 
|>    day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all who mourn, {3} and 
|>    provide for those who grieve in Zion-- to bestow on them a crown 
|>    of beauty instead of ashes, the oil of gladness instead of 
|>    mourning, and a garment of praise instead of a spirit of 
|>    despair. They will be called oaks of righteousness, a planting 
|>    of the LORD for the display of his splendor. 
|
|This doesn't support your statement above. And your arguement that Jesus
|fulfilled part of the expectations and the parts he didn't do he'll do
|next time around is weak.

He told us that he would.

|>Look at the prophecy in Isaiah 53 and compare it to Jesus' death:
|>    Isaiah 53 (NIV)   Who has believed our message and to whom has 
|>    the arm of the LORD been revealed? {2} He grew up before him 
|>    like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground. He had 
|>    no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his 
|>    appearance that we should desire him. {3} He was despised and 
|>    rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. 
|>    Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we 
|>    esteemed him not. {4} Surely he took up our infirmities and 
|>    carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, 
|>    smitten by him, and afflicted. {5} But he was pierced for our 
|>    transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the 
|>    punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds 
|>    we are healed. 
|
|Isaiah53:5(JPS): But he was wounded because of our sins, Crushed because
|of our iniquities. He bore the chastisement that made us whole, And by
|his bruises we were healed.

Same as NASB 'wounded.'  But look at the rest of the passage, there
remarkable similarities between this and Jesus' life and death, wouldn't
you say?

|>    {6} We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of 
|>    us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the 

Jesus didn't try to excuse himself or even defend himself of the
charges and attacks against himself.

|>    iniquity of us all. {7} He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he 
|>    did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, 
|>    and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open 

He was killed - cut off from the land of the living.

|>    his mouth. {8} By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And 
|>    who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the 
|>    land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was 

He was buried.

|>    stricken. {9} He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with 

Sinless.

|>    the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was 
|>    any deceit in his mouth. {10} Yet it was the Lord's will to 
|>    crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his 

A guilt offering - he paid our sin debt.

|>    life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his 
|>    days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand. 

He will rise from the dead - see the life of life after suffering.

|>    {11} After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of 
|>    life and be satisfied ; by his knowledge my righteous servant 
|>    will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. 

He will be great.

|>    {12} Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he 
|>    will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out 
|>    his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. 
|>    For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the 
|>    transgressors. 
|
|>Crucifiction was prophecied:
|>    Psalms 22:14-18 (NIV)   I am poured out like water, and all my 
|>    bones are out of joint. My heart has turned to wax; it has 
|>    melted away within me. {15} My strength is dried up like a 
|>    potsherd, and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth; you lay 
|>    me in the dust of death. {16} Dogs have surrounded me; a band of 
|>    evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my 
|>    feet. {17} I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over 
|>    me. {18} They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my 
|>    clothing. 
|
|Psalms22:13-19(JPS) (13)Many bulls surround me, mighty ones of Bashan
|encircle me. (14)They open their mouths at me like tearing, roaring
|lions. (15)(d)My life ebbs away(d): all my bones are disjointed; my
|heart is like wax, melting within me; (16)my vigor dries up like a
|shard; my tongue cleaves to my palate; You commit me to the dust of
|death. (17) Dogs surround me; a pack of evil ones closes in on me,
|(e)like lions [they maul] my hands and feet.(e) (18)I take the count of
|all my bones while they look on and gloat. (19)They divide my clothes
|among themselves, casting lots for my garments.
|d-d: Lit. "I am poured out like water."
|e-e: With Rashi; cf. Isa. 38.13.

Why is it not that the JPS translators are pointing away from Jesus
being the reciepent of this prophecy?  You say we tilt one way, are
you and these translators immune to this?

For Christ and His Kingdom,
Richard Pitts
-- 
rpitts@cerl.gatech.edu       |    
Atlanta, GA                --|-- 
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