HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gordon@meiko.com (Gordon Henderson)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.admin
Subject: Re: The idea of COMERCIAL MUD
Date: 13 Oct 92 17:15:21 GMT
Organization: Meiko Scientific Corp.

I used to play a commercial MUD.

    (But I'm alright now!)

It was good fun while it lasted, however I got totally adicted and it
used to cost me about #200 (uk pounds) per quarter, in combined phone
bills, and connection charges.  This was about 5 or 6 years ago. Never
again.

It was called Shades, and ran on a UK networked system called Prestel.
(It was like a huge bulletin board, used by travel agents, and some
financial services, and lots of other commercial type people) I can't
remember what the connection charge was (I think it was free, through
the night, but the phone call wasn't, and even though it was a local
charge, it would still mount up ... )

The MUD it's self was a very simple system! No guilds, races or
classes, just a simple: get the treasure and dump in in the throne
room, avoiding being killed by a mobile or other player. (The game did
suffer a bit from some players using summon & slay tactics!) There were
a few puzzles to be solved to get extra treasure too. There was a game
RESET every hour or so. That was a bummer. People with clever terminals
with function keys (this was a 1200/75 baud system with viewdata text
on a non-scrolling 40 column screen too!) would dash in and the game
would be cleaned out within 15 minutes, you would then hang about for
the next reset, and so on.

There were 8 games, each could hold 8 players (I think - it has been a
long time.) I played it for about a year after it started - it ran for
another 3-4 years I believe. They were quoting over 1000 conections
per week too!

I won't play a commercial system aever gain! I just couldn't afford it.
(Now I am trying to create a non-commercial one instead!)

Any ex-Shades players out there?

Just my deflated 2 ecus worth ...

-- Gordon (Irn-Bru) Henderson
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.admin,rec.games.mud.diku,alt.mud,rec.games.mud.lp
From: gse9k@helga8.acc.Virginia.EDU (Scott Evans)
Subject: POLL on muds - PLEASE READ
Reply-To: thrash@virginia.edu (Scott Evans)
Organization: or lack thereof
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 19:28:42 GMT


Hi all...I'm going to be doing a senior thesis that involves
MUDs, specifically dikus.  I'll be looking into the text-based
virtual reality aspects of it, and attempting to modify a diku
so that, for the player, the VR is more convincing and less
game-like that it is currently on most MUDs.  So...I need lots
of player input!  Please take a few minutes and answer this
survey...send it to me at thrash@virginia.edu.  Your input will
be strongly considered, and will most likely appear in my 
thesis somewhere.  My e-mail address is thrash@virginia.edu.
Thanks a lot!

scott evans



---------------------------------------------------------------
----------- MUD SURVEY ----------------------------------------
----------- please return to thrash@virginia.edu --------------
---------------------------------------------------------------


1. How long have you been involved with MUDs?



2. Do you spend most of your MUD-related time:
   a) playing
   b) coding (and/or running) a MUD
   c) other:



3. Which MUDs are you active on, and what type are they?
   (i.e. Diku, LP, Tiny, etc)






4. What aspects of these MUDs, and MUDs in general, do you like?
   Please go into as much detail as you can.





5. What aspects of these MUDs, and MUDs in general, do you dislike?
   How would you improve them?




6. Do you feel that the MUDs you are active on are "convincing"?  
   Why or why not?




7. What ideas do you have for making a MUD more "realistic"?
   Obviously, it can still maintain its game-like qualities, such
   as killing other players, living in the past/future, etc., but
   the point is to make the players _believe_ that they are actually
   in these times, doing these actions.






8. Do you mind being contacted with further questions, should any
   arise?  If not, please include your e-mail address here.




---------------------------------------------------------------
--------- thanks! ---------------------------------------------
--------- your input is greatly appreciated! ------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.admin
Subject: Re: Internet traffic. MUD % of total
From: rossw@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz (Ross Williamson)
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 18:59:33 GMT
Organization: University of Auckland, New Zealand.

takkyon@dartmouth.edu (Dr. Tachyon) writes:

>In article [snip] Ross Williamson, rossw@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz writes:
>>
>>	Does anyone out there have any idea ( sorta accurate ) of the
>>the volume of iternet traffic belongs to MUD users??  I have heard
>>figures of 12-15% thrown around... but does anyone have more exact
>>figures?
>>
>>Ross.

>This question seems to come up here with some regularity.  Perhaps
>something out to go in the FAQ?
		^^^^^^ This is actually what I have in mind.  It's just
one of those things that was suggested to me to put in the FAQ. :)

+-----------------------------------+---------------------------+
| Name   : Ross Williamson          | Do you remember when sex  |
| E-Mail : rossw@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz  |  was safe and skydiving   |
| Auckland University, New Zealand  |      was dangerous?       |
+-----------------------------------+---------------------------+
|   Of course these opinions are my own and thank !! for that   |
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
From: mjb@doc.ic.ac.uk (Matthew J Brown)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.admin
Subject: Re: Internet traffic. MUD % of total
Date: 11 Oct 92 21:31:15 GMT
Article-I.D.: oak46.MJB.92Oct11143115
	<A6F94C5420015051@ghostwheel.dartmouth.edu>
	<1b1ecgINNong@gap.caltech.edu>
Organization: Department Of Computing, Imperial College, London.
NNTP-Posting-Host: oak46.doc.ic.ac.uk
In-reply-to: rickert@cco.caltech.edu's message of 8 Oct 1992 13:51:12 GMT

In article <1b1ecgINNong@gap.caltech.edu> rickert@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Warren Rickert) writes:
>As I recall, the 12-15% figure was an Australian number, collected
>thru one of their international links. 
>
>Calculating a % of traffic for the Internet as a whole doesnt really
>sound practical.  What could be done, is to try to calculate the 
>amount (as in % of packets or bytes) thru any particular gateway.
>Some of the NSF backbone gateways would probably give you 
>information most like a % of total.
>
>Of course, you are going to have to convince someone running such a gateway
>that they want to go to the time, effort, and expense of doing a detailed
>packet count on a major gateway handling _bootloads_ of packets.
>Keith

As I remember, that figure ( I remember it being closer to 10% ) was
actually the percentage of unidentified packets transferred - in other
words, ones with either a source or destination port number not being
one of the standard services. The assumption made was that most of
these were MUD connections. The accuracy of this assumption is not
known.

-Morven

--
| Matthew J. Brown  | Dept. of Computing | If God intended for us to go to   |
| mjb@doc.ic.ac.uk  | Imperial College,  | lectures He wouldn't have created |
| mjb02@cc.ic.ac.uk | 180 Queen's Gate   | double-sided photocopiers.        |
| Morven on Lambda  | LONDON SW7 2AZ     |          -IC RagMag 1991/92       |
From: jimfost@doc.ksu.ksu.edu (Jim Foster)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.admin
Subject: Re: Graphical MUDS?
Date: 9 Oct 1992 15:46:17 -0500
Organization: Kansas State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: doc.ksu.ksu.edu

yyrkoon@morris.engin.umich.edu (Jeffrey Jon Kabbe ) writes:


>>Are there any MUDS available today that use a front end to display
>>graphics?  

>No word as to the completion time but a friend of mine is "working" on a 
>graphical based, non-LP (definitely!!!) based mud. You'd have to write your 
>own clients though b/c it is designed for Unix machines (Suns I think).
>But then, this could be like his other projects that he starts and then 
>doesn't finish so who knows...

Actually, there are at least two graphic interface MUDs that I know of: the Battletech game and the Fighter command (name?) that run on GEnie. I suppose Compu$erve might have one or two as well...


-- 
Jim Foster                [                                                   ]
jimfost@matt.ksu.ksu.edu  [    "We need bigger guns! Bigger f***ing guns!"    ]
Kansas State University   [                                                   ]
From: h8850004@d24.wu-wien.ac.at (Werner Schoenfeldinger)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.admin
Subject: RE: The idea of COMERCIAL MUD
Date: 13 Oct 1992 09:18:43 GMT
Organization: Wirtschaftsuniversitaet Wien
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: d24.wu-wien.ac.at

Well in basic the idea would work. But I'm sorry you left some things which 
are very important simply out. Well here they are:

1) You will have to do it in text mode. The capacity of the NETWORK will not
allow you any other mode w/o local picture databases. In text mode you will
hardly be able to leave the room or step-based movement. To me it's equal if
you go to the next room or make 5 steps from which is each step a small
single room. 

2) To manage 100 or more players at one time you have to use a compiled code.
Well apart from the huge database & databasemamagement you will have then a very
rigid system. One might say that we have that with DIKU-MUD too but diku 
compiles fast and the people are not very angry if you make a short maintanance-
shutdown (which they would be with a commercial mud).

3) You think that a commercial mud (done by professional progammers and area-
designers) is so much better than existing muds ????

Well what do you think WE ARE (the implementors). The majority of the
Implementors know their programming job very well and they are mostly
professional programmers. Area designers too. So well the only difference will be
that the programmers of this mud are paid for the work, which results in a lack
of motivation and in worse results. 

Well and immortals around the clock online you have on every good mud.

4) Normally a mud does grow with the wishes of the players. So after some years
development (like diku II) you will have a product on which nearly every player
will have extra wishes. Either you fulfill it (which means paid programmer hours
as well) or hack in a hopfully stable code.

5) And finally a mud is not famous on the features it has, but for the mood the
implementors and immortal stuff and at least the dear players create on it. If
you have a playerkiller mud ... you will have only playerkillers there.


Concerning this reasons I don't think that 2$/hour is enough to cover your
expenses and that you will find a marketgap for that.

-Cyron implementor of VIEMUD

/************************************************
* Viemud: TELNET billroth.wu-wien.ac.at 4000
*                137.208.91.6           4000
/************************************************

You are all welcome and it's for FREEEEEEEEEEEEE !!!!!!
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.admin
From: yyrkoon@morris.engin.umich.edu (Jeffrey Jon Kabbe )
Subject: Re: Graphical MUDS?
Date: Fri, 09 Oct 92 11:13:28 EDT
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor
Originator: yyrkoon@morris.engin.umich.edu


>Are there any MUDS available today that use a front end to display
>graphics?  

No word as to the completion time but a friend of mine is "working" on a 
graphical based, non-LP (definitely!!!) based mud. You'd have to write your 
own clients though b/c it is designed for Unix machines (Suns I think).
But then, this could be like his other projects that he starts and then 
doesn't finish so who knows...

Jeff = yyrkoon
Xref: sparky rec.games.mud.admin:545 rec.games.mud.diku:638 alt.mud:293 rec.games.mud.lp:3622
From: gse9k@uvacs.cs.Virginia.EDU (Scott Evans)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.admin,rec.games.mud.diku,alt.mud,rec.games.mud.lp
Subject: Articles on MUDs?
Date: 14 Oct 92 23:01:55 GMT
Article-I.D.: murdoch.1992Oct14.230155.5131
Reply-To: thrash@virginia.edu (Scott Evans)
Organization: or lack thereof

Along the same lines as my previous post (i.e. my senior thesis
involves MUDs), I'd like to know if anyone knows of any journal
articles related to or about MUDs and text-based virtual reality.
If so, PLEASE mail me with the journal name and author if possible.

Furthermore, if you or any friends have done any research work
involving MUDs, I'd like to see those papers as well--anything
would be very helpful.

Thanks again!



scott
From: alansz@cogsci.Berkeley.EDU (Alan Schwartz)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.admin
Subject: Re: BACKING up the db
Date: 12 Oct 92 00:09:59 GMT
Organization: Institute of Cognitive Studies, U.C. Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: cogsci.berkeley.edu

In an article, emeinfel@gmuvax2.gmu.edu writes:
>I am goning to automate backups on my MUDs (2.0 MUSHes).  I thought it
>would be safest to have a bot log in at an unpopular time, bring down
>the game, and then tar the db to tape.  Any opinions on this?

Well, I dunno so much about 2.0, but I run a PennMUSH 1.5, and the
way I do it is far less hassle. My MUSH is configured to do a db
dump (like @dump) every 60 minutes. I have a csh script that checks
the lastest version of the db dump (outdb.Z) for completeness
(by examining the end of the file) and then copies it to another
directory and filename. If the dump was bad, it copies it as well,
but with a different filename. The script makes an entry in a log
of backups, and then sleeps for 6 hours before doing it all again.

Much easier than using a bot. You could move the db to tape at your
leisure. If you want the script, I can email it to you. 


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
     Javelin@BelgariadMUSH       |          Alan Schwartz         
       (csa.bu.edu 4201)         |                            
                                 | alansz@cogsci.berkeley.edu
IC: Drasnian Intelligence Chief  | UC Berkeley                        
OOC: MUSH combat system coding   | Cognitive Psychology        
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
From: dilger@toadflax.UCDavis.EDU (Michael B. Dilger)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.admin
Subject: RE: The idea of COMERCIAL MUD
Date: 14 Oct 92 23:00:30 GMT
Reply-To: dilger@toadflax.UCDavis.EDU (Michael B. Dilger)
Organization: UC Davis, EECS Division of Computer Science

I'm not quite sure which of the 20 some postings you are replying to,
but I have to disagree with some of your hasty conclusions:

> 
1) You will have to do it in text mode. The capacity of the NETWORK will not
> allow you any other mode w/o local picture databases. In text mode you will
> hardly be able to leave the room or step-based movement. To me it's equal if
> you go to the next room or make 5 steps from which is each step a small
> single room. 

The original author never mentioned graphics.  And even if a followup did, I 
don't see any reference to sending graphics over the network.  I agree that
detailed graphics would have to be kept in a local picture database (and am
infact developing this type of mud currently).  But simple graphics CAN be
sent over the network, a good example of which is BSXMUD.

> You think that a commercial mud (done by professional progammers and area-
> designers) is so much better than existing muds ????

I hate to be down on mud programmers, since most of the readers of this 
newsgroup are.  But you've gotta admit that without $$$ most of us can't
afford to spend the required time to code/admin a mud.  Those of us that
do are crazy people (don't be offended, I am a crazy person myself).
> ...  are paid for the work, which results in a lack
> of motivation and in worse results.

If they are interested in the first place, it INCREASES motivation!!!

>  To manage 100 or more players at one time you have to use a compiled code.
> Well apart from the huge database & databasemamagement you will have
then a very
> rigid system.

Who says compiled code leads to a rigid system?  In my new mud format (VOMUD)
an editor can log on from a remote site and change just about any aspect of
the game including creating new areas.  If a bug is found that doesn't
crash the
system, it can be fixed/recompiled and ONLY THEN does the mud go down for
about 60 seconds to restart the new version.  

I agree, $2/hr is probably not a good price.  How do you feel about buying
characters? Or about paying $35 for graphical client software?

-Mike
From: alcaman@opal.cs.tu-berlin.de (Alexander Weidt)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.admin
Subject: Re: Internet traffic. MUD % of total
Date: 8 Oct 92 14:18:55 GMT
Organization: Techn. University of Berlin, Germany

takkyon@dartmouth.edu (Dr. Tachyon) writes:

>(No, I don't have any figures.  Just suggesting.)

Well, at present Tubmud (LP in Berlin with pretty bad net acess to the rest
of the world) turns over approx 35 Megs a day.  If there is interest I can 
compile a more comprehensive set of statistics.

Happy hacking, Demos.
--
Don't let them drive you crazy when you know it's in walking distance.
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.admin
From: dwb@Turing.ORG (Daniel W. Burford)
Subject: Re: The idea of COMERCIAL MUD
Organization: The Turing Project, Charlottesville Virginia.
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 14:46:23 GMT

In article <1be49jINNh7l@nestroy.wu-wien.ac.at> h8850004@d24.wu-wien.ac.at (Werner Schoenfeldinger) writes:

>3) You think that a commercial mud (done by professional progammers and area-
>designers) is so much better than existing muds ????
>
>Well what do you think WE ARE (the implementors). The majority of the
>Implementors know their programming job very well and they are mostly
>professional programmers. Area designers too.

I agree with this in large part; there's a lot of MUDs out there with some 
pretty amazing features.

>5) And finally a mud is not famous on the features it has, but for the mood 
>implementors and immortal stuff and at least the dear players create on it. If
>you have a playerkiller mud ... you will have only playerkillers there.


This would also be true.  If you have a pay-to-play MUD, where players are
racking up a bill for every extra minute they spend online, I would expect a
very chilly atmosphere - people would have little time to bother talking or
being friendly or helping one another, they'd be too busy using their precious
online time to advance their character.
>
>-Cyron implementor of VIEMUD
>
One thing that a commerical mud would have as an advantage is that, since I
assume its primary means of access would be modem dialups, it would have a much
larger audience than merely Internet users.  After all, someone who knows their
way around news, ftp, archie and so on has a LOT of the functionality of 
Compuserve, but that hardly puts Compuserve out of biz - most people just can't
access Internet, and all the wonderful MUDs it affords.  If the commerical
MUD could get word out to a large portion of the computer-using non-internet
community, it could very well be successful.

Even so, with a plan of paying full-time programmer/designer/implementors,
I can't imagine how the place could ever break even.

>You are all welcome and it's for FREEEEEEEEEEEEE !!!!!!

Heh heh - my sentiments exactly.

			- Gilmore

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dan Burford    | Gilmore   |  "The only difference between me and a madman,
dwb@turing.org |  @ DalMOO |     is that I am not mad."  -  Salvador Dali
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              Erst in der Beschraenkung zeigt sich der Meister.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.admin
From: dbayliss@MtHolyoke.edu (Munchkin)
Subject: I WISH!
Organization: Mount Holyoke College
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 22:12:16 GMT
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.admin
Subject: Internet traffic. MUD % of total
From: rossw@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz (Ross Williamson)
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 19:53:20 GMT
Organization: University of Auckland, New Zealand.

	Does anyone out there have any idea ( sorta accurate ) of the
the volume of iternet traffic belongs to MUD users??  I have heard
figures of 12-15% thrown around... but does anyone have more exact
figures?

Ross.
+-----------------------------------+---------------------------+
| Name   : Ross Williamson          | Do you remember when sex  |
| E-Mail : rossw@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz  |  was safe and skydiving   |
| Auckland University, New Zealand  |      was dangerous?       |
+-----------------------------------+---------------------------+
|   Of course these opinions are my own and thank !! for that   |
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
From: kychen@cco.caltech.edu (Kay-Yut Chen)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.admin
Subject: Re: The idea of COMERCIAL MUD
Date: 13 Oct 1992 18:18:59 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu

In article <1be49jINNh7l@nestroy.wu-wien.ac.at> h8850004@d24.wu-wien.ac.at (Werner Schoenfeldinger) writes:
>Well in basic the idea would work. But I'm sorry you left some things which 
>are very important simply out. Well here they are:
>
>1) You will have to do it in text mode. The capacity of the NETWORK will not
>allow you any other mode w/o local picture databases. In text mode you will
>hardly be able to leave the room or step-based movement. To me it's equal if
>you go to the next room or make 5 steps from which is each step a small
>single room. 

	That is exactly what they have done in the MPGnet. They send you a
front (8M in size!) with SVGA graphics. Not only the graphics is nice, you
have range weapons and spells which is substantial improvemnet over the
room structure of MUDs. BTW, MPGnet can be accessed thru the internet.

>2) To manage 100 or more players at one time you have to use a compiled code.
>Well apart from the huge database & databasemamagement you will have then a very
>rigid system. One might say that we have that with DIKU-MUD too but diku 
>compiles fast and the people are not very angry if you make a short maintanance-
>shutdown (which they would be with a commercial mud).

	The MPGnet can support 100 people in their RPG.

>3) You think that a commercial mud (done by professional progammers and area-
>designers) is so much better than existing muds ????

	YES. The MPGnet is better than any MUD i have played on the internet.
And yes, they are charging me money to play.
>
>Well what do you think WE ARE (the implementors). The majority of the
>Implementors know their programming job very well and they are mostly
>professional programmers. Area designers too. So well the only difference will be
>that the programmers of this mud are paid for the work, which results in a lack
>of motivation and in worse results. 
>
>Well and immortals around the clock online you have on every good mud.

	Probably programming is not hte only issue here. I don't see any professional programmers who are really great artists. You also need a dedicated DM. A
good RPG has to have good game-play, great graphics and a constantly changing
monitored world. I can't see a group of 3 or 4 implementors (including artists
and story writers) doing it full time for nothing.
>
>
>Concerning this reasons I don't think that 2$/hour is enough to cover your
>expenses and that you will find a marketgap for that.

	Apparently about $3 /hour is enought. The MPGnet charges between
$2 and $3 depends on how much you play per month. I have planning to play at
least 10+ hours.

Kay Chen
From: majere@chezmoto.ai.mit.edu (Michael Majere)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.admin
Subject: Re: Old versions of MUSH
Date: 11 Oct 92 20:41:01 GMT
Followup-To: rec.games.mud.admin
Organization: MicroMUSE at MIT
In-reply-to: lwl@pdiff.cis.upenn.edu's message of 5 Oct 92 22:31:44 GMT

--text follows this line--
The MicroMUSH code is no-longer available.