HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: All Arabs are guilty
Date: 10 Jan 1993 07:33:02 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
Distribution: world
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.23.70

In article 1@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu, ifaz706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu () writes:
>In article <1984@spam.ua.oz>, jaskew@spam.ua.oz (Joseph Askew) writes:
>> Ben Gurion
>> spelt it out by saying that a 40% Arab minority was unacceptable and
>> would threaten the very basis of the Jewish State. 

>	I think you are patently wrong here. If I had the time
>	(or the right incentive :-)) I would bring you three
>	Ben Gurion declarations of peacful coexistance on any
>	one you bring to the contrary. 

I can't remember reading that particular statement attributed to Ben 
Gurion, but Avraham Ussishkin, chairman of the Jewish National Fund, said 
"We will not be able to begin our political life in a state in which Arabs 
will constitute 45 percent" (1938).  It is so secret that many leading 
Zionists, including Ben Gurion, felt the same way at the time.  

>Noam

Brendan.
From: perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman)
Subject: Re: Nobel prize for Rabin
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 23:02:49 GMT

In article <1483500316@igc.apc.org> cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:
>
>I do not know who is proposing Mr. Rabin for Nobel Prize.
>
>Those who are contemplating such a proposal, are kindly requested
>to acquaint themselves with damning evidence about war crimes
>committed under direct orders of Mr. Yitzhak Rabin. These war 
>crimes were committed in 1948, 1967, 1987 and later. A more
>detailed, though summary, paper on these war crimes, has been posted
>in this conference a few weeks ago and can be obtained from
>the author of these lines.

I find this utterly hilarious.  These charges are hogwash, and were
refuted in this net by both myself and Brendan McKay.  If Mr. Davidsson
wishes his charges to have any credence, it behooves him to address the
points made against them.  To date he hasn't - and it's been over a
month.

-- 
"How sad to see/A model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport
A battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -Tim Rice,"Chess"
     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24785 talk.politics.soviet:10251 soc.culture.greek:12067 soc.culture.europe:11021 soc.history:10566 soc.culture.turkish:13842
From: an5115@anon.penet.fi
Subject: Re: Deportation of Palestinians
Organization: Anonymous contact service
X-Anonymously-To: talk.politics.mideast
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 13:11:45 GMT

In article <1992Dec30.135057.23322@ennews.eas.asu.edu> you write:
>In article <29851@castle.ed.ac.uk> jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson) writes:
>
># The affair of the illegal and immoral deportation of Palestinians has
># brought some interesting things into focus on this newsgroup.
>
>	Given the context in which it took place, only an anti semetic
>bigot would call it immoral (or, perhaps, someone ignorant of the
>facts might call it immoral).  However, given the fact that the Israel
>Supreme court has not overturned it, only an idiot would call it illegal.
>

Former supreme court judge Haim Cohen described the deportations as 
illegal according to Israeli Law and immoral according to Jewsih ethics,
when he was interviewed on Israel's TV news programme "Mabat"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Occupation
From: fedimit@wisipc.weizmann.ac.il (Dan Nabutovsky)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 14:37:52 GMT
Organization: Weizmann Institute of Science, Computation Center

In article <4778@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:
>In article <1992Dec27.163758.20159@wisipc.weizmann.ac.il> fedimit@wisipc.weizmann.ac.il (Dan Nabutovsky) writes:
>>
>>   And Israel is occupying nothing.
>
>Are you from the Golda Meir Brainwashing School?  Palestine was a
>land without a people and a people without a land?

   Are you from Yasir Arafat Brainwashing School? You are not
a nation, you are part of the Arab nation .
You have no your own language, you have no your own religion,
you have no and never had your country. Such a country "Palestine"
never existed. And what territory includes this mythological
country, which never existed? Judea, Samaria and Gaza? Jerusalem? Or also
Tel-Aviv and Haifa?
   And how do you call yourself? "Palestinians", which means
"occupants" on Hebrew?

>
>>   Judea, Samaria & Gaza were Israeli at least 3000 years.
>
>Yes, some 3000 years AGO!
>

AND now.

Dan
From: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: israel vs. the world
Date: 6 Jan 93 07:18:08 EST
Reply-To: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Distribution: talk
Organization: Channel 1 Communications

To: Michael Silverman

 > (Leibowitz Judaism, Human Values, and the Jewish State 1992)

 MS> And I am sure that this book presents the same clear
 MS> rational discourse on the "Jewish Problem" as Protocols of
 MS> the Elders of Zion, right?

Are you actually going to try to pass off this inane remark as a
substantive criticism of Leibowitz and his book?

This is yet another fine example, of which many abound in this
newsgroup, of why Israel is in very deep trouble, and why so many
Israelis and American Zionists don't realize it.

If they can't read and write or present coherent arguments, and
are continually reduced to name-calling at the level usually
found on an elementary school playground, how in the world can
they accurately calculate their own self-interest?

I just finished Leibowitz's book and was mightily impressed by
it. He is an Israeli national treasure and a Jewish treasure. For
you to associate him with the most vile forms of anti-Semitism is
quite despicable.

Leibowitz is a forceful thinker, a man of unshakeable integrity,
and a prophetic visionary of the highest order. Spiritual power
comes through his every word. He may well go down in history as
one of the most important Jewish thinkers of the 20th century.

Just after the 1967 War he predicted all the problems that Israel
is now facing as a result of the continued occupation. Back then
they thought he was a lunatic. Now many Israelis are having
second thoughts.

You should be worried, though: if anything could induce me to
convert to Judaism, it would be men like Leibowitz. I can't think
of any other religious figure in the world today who possesses
his spiritual quality. He manages to present Judaism as a noble
pursuit indeed. How would you like to have me arguing with you
from within the fold? That should give you a few sleepless
nights.... Rabbi McGuire....

Any time you feel up to discussing the substance of the book, let
me know.
---
  OLX 3.01 31-2557  Not dead, just electroencephalographically challenged
--
Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA

Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:25069 talk.politics.soviet:10338 soc.culture.greek:12135 soc.culture.europe:11105 soc.history:10623
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: "ulogic of news.admin.policy" goes to Erzurum Turkish Genocide Museum.
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 93 15:47:10 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <821@ulogic.UUCP> hartman@ulogic.UUCP (Richard M. Hartman) writes:

>cutting anatolia out of the feed will prevent you from wasting time on
>the phone downloading them (assuming you have a UUCP feed).

And you call yourself "u-logic"? Does it change the fact that during the 
period of 1914 to 1920, the Armenian Government ordered, incited, assisted 
and participated in the genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people because of 
race, religion and national origin?

"Within a few months after the war began, these Armenian guerrilla
 forces, operating in close coordination with the Russians, were
 savagely attacking Turkish cities, towns and villages in the east,
 massacring their inhabitants without mercy, while at the same time
 working to sabotage the Ottoman army's war effort by destroying roads
 and bridges, raiding caravans, and doing whatever else they could to
 ease Russian occupation. The atrocities committed by the Armenian 
 volunteer forces accompanying the Russian army were so severe that the 
 Russian commanders themselves were compelled to withdraw them from the 
 fighting fronts and sent them to rear guard duties. The memoirs of many
 Russian officers who served in the east at this time are filled with 
 accounts of the revolting atrocities committed by these Armenian 
 guerrillas, which were savage even by relatively primitive standards of
 war then observed in such areas.[1]"

[1] "Journal de Guerre du Deuxieme d'Artillerie de Forteresse Russe 
     d'Erzeroum," 1919, p. 28.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.'    (Sahak Melkonian)
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: Jeremy and kindler, gentler democracy (was drivel about Deportations)
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 14:13:29 GMT

jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson) writes:
# 
# It always gives me a good laugh to see comments on Northern Ireland from
# dimwits across the herring pond. Compare and contrast:
# 
# The Birmingham Six: Mistakenly imprisoned after a trial, later released after
# much public outrage and serious examination of the judicial system.

And the Gibraltar 3, shot in the back without warning.
 
# The Lebanon FourHundredAndEighteen: Deported in contravention of the Geneva
# Convention, without any trial whatsoever, to overwhelming public support, and
# rubber-stamped by the Israeli Kangaroo^H^H^H^H^H^H^H Supreme Court.

There is a big difference. The IRA does not call for the destruction
of Britain.
 
# Ghaza Strip: A place where little girls throw stones.

And armed men shoot Israeli soldiers in the head.

-Danny Keren.
From: jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: What is this doing on page 15
Date: 5 Jan 93 10:53:19 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <1i8tuoINNcj8@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll) writes:
~
~In a previous article, zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd M. Ben-Halim) says:
~errs, and so far I'm not sold that Israel is right on this call.  I try to be
~objective.  Apparently you do not.  The Hamas leaders were guilty of many 
~violent acts, and it was within Israel's right to deport them.
~ 

You claim to be objective and in the next breath you demonstrate that you
are nothing of the sort - has it not penetrated your skull that the deportees
have been found guilty of no crime whatsoever? Your presumption of guilt
exposes your prejudices.


-- 
===Jeremy Henderson===jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk=          

This message cost the net hundreds if not thousands of dollars.
Bloody good value if you ask me.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Subject: Joseph Churba (Was: Re: israel as asset)
Summary: facts for a change
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 01:51:44 GMT

In article <1993Jan9.1777.22304@channel1> "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:

# To: Roger Carasso
 
#  RC> "Joseph Churba, a former top Air Force intelligence official
#  RC> and head of the Washington-based Center for International
#  RC> Security, estimated that it would cost the United States $100
#  RC> billion or more in additional spending -- and the deployment
#  RC> of more than 200,000 of its own troops -- to replace Israel's
#  RC> pro-U.S. strategic weight in the Middle East."
#  RC>         --Myths and Facts,
#  RC>          A concise Record of the Arab-Israeli Conflict,
#  RC>          1989
 
# Typical schnorring propaganda.
 
	Whatever you say.

# It's fascinating how many Israeli supporters rely on the same
# handouts from AIPAC to do their "thinking" for them.
 
	Yep. Whatever you say.

# Joseph Churba was a former close associate of Rabbi Meir
# Kahane--not the most objective source in the world on Mideast
# politics, eh? See Robert Friedman's False Prophet for the full
# background on Churba.

	Actually, you might want to do a background check on Robert
Friedman.  Hardly an objective source on Jews or Israel.

	As to the association between Joseph Churba and Rabii Meir
Kahane (HY"D), here are some actual facts.  One, they wrote a book
together in the early (mid?) 1960's which may or may not have been
commissioned by the FBI/CIA, to get Jewish support for the Vietnam war
on the grounds that anything that was bad for Communism was by its
very essence good for Jews.  While this may not have been such a great
thing, it is hardly the worst thing in the world.

	I once saw Joseph Churba speak.  He was asked about whether or not
he supported Rabbi Meir Kahane's proposals vis a vis the
"palestinians?".  His reply was that he REJECTED THEM OUT OF HAND.
You should not smear this man with a false charge.
--
	There are three types of people in the world.  Those that are good
at math and those that are not.

makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu
From: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: israel
Date: 5 Jan 93 16:15:17 EST
Reply-To: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Distribution: talk
Organization: Channel 1 Communications

To: Elias Davidsson/Center for Policy Research

Thanks for taking the trouble to respond directly and fully to my
questions.
---
  OLX 3.01 31-2557  image pendulum
--
Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA

Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:25172 talk.politics.soviet:10382 soc.culture.europe:11143 soc.history:10663
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.europe,soc.history
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: On this occasion, we once again reiterate the unquestioned justice...
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 93 20:09:42 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <1993Jan11.160730.20139@sci34hub.sci.com> gary@sci34hub.sci.com (Gary Heston) writes:

>originated at them) in a weeks' news. I think I can stand the loss to
>avoid Argic/Mutlus' ravings and Beckers' "save the alt. groups" campaign.

Poor "Heston". Will it change the fact that during the period of 1914 to 
1920, the Armenian Government ordered, incited, assisted and participated 
in the genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people because of race, religion
and national origin? However, despite the genocidal policy of the x-Soviet 
Armenian Government, during the 78 years following the genocide, in a small 
portion of Turkish historic lands there exists a Turkish Karabag in the 
diaspora, the dispersed Turkish and Kurdish communities lifting themselves 
from their refugee status, have become strongholds of Turkish and Kurdish 
culture and national aspirations. They have, by their existence, transformed 
the Muslim Question into a political demand - the Turkish and Kurdish Case.

...On this occasion, we once again reiterate the unquestioned 
justice of the restitution of Turkish and Kurdish rights and...

- We demand that the x-Soviet Armenian Government admit its 
responsibility for the Turkish and Kurdish Genocide, render 
reparations to the Muslim people, and return the land to its 
rightful owners. The recognition of the Genocide has become an 
issue which cannot be delayed further, and it is imperative that 
artificial obstacles created for political manipulations be removed.

- We believe the time has come to demand from the the United States 
that it formally recognizes the Turkish and Kurdish Genocide, adopts 
the principles of our demands and refuses to accede to Armenian pressures 
to the contrary.

- We also demand that the United States return to the policies 
advocated by Admiral Bristol and other enlightened statesmen,
who have undertaken a just, human and benevolent attitude
towards the rights of the Turkish and Kurdish people and the
just resolution of their Case.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.'    (Sahak Melkonian)
From: drori@gumby.Altos.COM (Ghiora Drori)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: israel vs. the world
Date: 8 Jan 93 02:10:39 GMT
Reply-To: drori@altos.COM (Ghiora Drori)
Distribution: talk,world
Organization: Altos Computer Systems, San Jose, CA

In article <1993Jan6.072739.157@vms.huji.ac.il# backon@vms.huji.ac.il writes:
#
#You mean Yeshayahu "Judeo-Nazi" Leibowitz ? I suppose you aren't aware of the
#fact that 90 year old Leibowitz, after having one (two ?) of his children die
#prematurely (6 Day War ??) did a dramatic turnaround in 1967 and called *any*

What dramatic turnaround?  the war was in 1967!

#Israeli willing to hold on to the West Bank as a "Judeo-Nazi". He called the

Actually Ben-Gurion had a simmilar opionion about holding on to 
the teritories; I recall him saying in the Knesset that Israel
should return the territories immidiatly.

 
#Chief Rabbi Goren (in 1967) a clown ("MOKYON") for going to the Wailing Wall in
#Jerusalem. And Wayne, I'm *really* surprised that you neglect to mention that

Goren did behave like a mookyon, where you aroung at the time.
Actually what Lebowitz said was (at least according to what I remember 
reading in a book by Sylvi Keshet) "in every good show at the most dramtic
moment a clown shows up on the stage", Goren running around blowing
a shofar during the war was not very far from this. He was the effectivly
crating a messianic ambiance which did no good to the country.

#
#I had a nice tete-a-tete (over awful coffee and stale cookies) in September
#1980 in Leibowitz's home. He's an interesting speaker (he's a fellow physician)
#who also dabbles in philosophy. In the immortal words of a colleague:
#"Leibowitz is the best philosopher  among physicians and the best physician
#among the philosophers".

Correct me if I am wrong but I recall he is Chemist. He also
has a total of about seven Phd's.

#
#Except for Avrum Burg, most of the Israeli  left is not exactly enamored of
#Leibowitz especially after his TV appearance last week.

He is a little over spoken at times. But that does not mean he is 
an idiot.
#
#Psychiatry is not my specialty so I can't offer a definitive psychiatric
#diagnosis of Leibowitz' condition.
#
#Just my $0.02 worth.
#
#Josh
#backon@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL
#
#
#
#
#>
#> </o>
#> ---
#>  ~ OLX 3.01 31-2557 ~ Infinite riches in a little room.
#> --
#> Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA
#>
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24782 soc.culture.greek:12065
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.greek
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: Greece and the EC
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 93 20:25:53 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <1993Jan5.170542@imhfhp16.epfl.ch> gavrila@imhfhp16.epfl.ch (Spyros Gavrilakis) writes:

>Turkey is unacceptable as an EC member: 1) Turkey has a lower
>standard of living than Greece and 5.7 times the population.

Is that what they teach you in Greece? Poor "paliks".

Source: 'United Nations, Human Development Report,' 1990.

Annual Output Per Person in Dollars Adjusted to Purchasing Power
Parity: Turkiye, Greece and Chile are in the same category. That
is, $3,000 - $5,999. 


Source: 'International Economics: Theory and Policy' by Paul R.
        Krugman and Maurice Obstfeld, Harper Collins Publishers,
        1991, (second edition).

In terms of 'Annual Output Per Person in Dollars Adjusted to 
Purchasing Power Parity,' Greece is in the same category with 
Turkiye.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.'    (Sahak Melkonian)
From: flax@frej.teknikum.uu.se (Jonas Flygare)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: What is this doing on page 15
Date: 5 Jan 93 13:02:16 GMT
Reply-To: flax@mizar.docs.uu.se
Organization: Dept. of Control and Systems, Teknikum, Uppsala
NNTP-Posting-Host: frej.teknikum.uu.se

In article <29882@castle.ed.ac.uk>, jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson) writes:
|> In article <1i8tuoINNcj8@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll) writes:

|> ~In a previous article, zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd M. Ben-Halim) says:
|> ~errs, and so far I'm not sold that Israel is right on this call.  I try to be
|> ~objective.  Apparently you do not.  The Hamas leaders were guilty of many 
|> ~violent acts, and it was within Israel's right to deport them.
|> ~ 

|> You claim to be objective and in the next breath you demonstrate that you
|> are nothing of the sort - has it not penetrated your skull that the deportees
|> have been found guilty of no crime whatsoever? Your presumption of guilt
|> exposes your prejudices.

Please fill me in on the following details: Were the deportees not set before
a military court, that confirmed the deportation? I got the impression that the
supreme court is upset that they were sentenced as a group, not that they
were deported? The only sources I have is TV, swedish papers and the Jerusalem
Post. If you have access to any other (swedish/english only, please) I'll be
most interested to hear.

--------------------------------------------------------
Jonas Flygare, 		+ Wherever you go, there you are
V{ktargatan 32 F:621	+
754 22 Uppsala, Sweden	+
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast