From: ronthal-adam@yale.edu (Adam Ronthal)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: One-work-composers
Date: 17 Dec 1992 00:02:20 -0500
Organization: Yale University Science & Engineering UNIX(tm), New Haven, CT 06520-2158
NNTP-Posting-Host: minerva.cis.yale.edu

In article <1992Dec14.173939.6318@spang.Camosun.BC.CA> dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker) writes:
>ronthal-adam@yale.edu (Adam Ronthal) writes:
>: In article <1992Dec11.174114.11779@spang.Camosun.BC.CA> dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker) writes:
>: >ronthal-adam@yale.edu (Adam Ronthal) writes:
>: >: In article <1992Dec10.193345.12981@spang.Camosun.BC.CA> dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker) writes:
>: >: >
>: >: >No I can't buy that, not on the strength of this one piece - enjoyable
>: >: >though it is. And Mahler wasn't popular until the 1960s really, except
>: >: >as a conductor. Rott is an interesting sideline, but all this 'he was
>: >: >where Mahler's inspiration comes from' garbage is, I think, just that.
>: >: >We might just as well take up Mahler's own opinion that his younger
>: >: >brother - can't remember his name - who died, would have been a far
>: >: >greater composer.
>: >: >
>: >: 
>: >: Have you listened to the third movement of the Rott?  I haven't heard
>: >: something so blatantly plagiarized in some time. Perhaps I did exaggerate
>: >: a bit, but I do think it's fair to say that Mahler was certainly inspired
>: >: enough by Rott to make blatant use of his style, themes, and characteristic
>: >: rhythms and orchestrations, at least in his first symphony.  Of course,
>: >: Mahler plagiarized from lots of people (I'm not knocking Mahler, I love
>: >: Mahler, but facts are facts).  My basis for saying that Rott may very
>: >: well have exceeded Mahler in popularity is quite simply because he is
>: >: more accesible.  I know I would have loved to see how he would have 
>: >: developed his style in later works.
>: >
>: >No this is simply untrue. Mahler didn't see the score of Rott's
>: >symphony until the early 1900s. Das Klagende Lied - which as the
>: >composer said contains 'all the Mahler you know' - is as early, if not
>: >earlier, than Rott's symphony. This is precisly what I meant: let's
>: >run down Mahler because of some stylistic similarities with this
>: >unknown. They studied together, they were friends, it's as simple as
>: >that.
>: >
>: >Mahler was a genius, Rott may have been but we can't say for sure.

>: 
>: I was not "running down" Mahler. He is one of my favorite composers. 
>: When was Mahler's first symphony written? Just out of interest...
>
>The symphony "No.1" dates from 1888, but it is accepted that he had
>written probably at least 4 before that. The conductor Willem
>Mengelberg recalled an all night session spent at the house of the
>Weber family (descendants of the composer) in - perhaps - the 1920s,
>playing through the manuscripts of 4 unknown Mahler symphonies which
>he had entrusted to Baroness von Weber. As the family lived in Dresden
>it is unlikely that the manuscripts survived......
>--
>Real:  Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept., Camosun College, Victoria B.C.
>Email: (dbarker@spang.camosun.bc.ca)
>Phone: +1 604 370 4452

The Rott symphony dates from 1878-1880, at least 8 years _before_ Mahler's 
1st.  Allow me to quote from the program notes to the BIS edition:

"It is beyond question that Mahler himself was influenced by Rott's 
symphony.  Especially the scherzo of Rott's symphony bears a string
resemblance to Mahler's musical language, and we should bear in mind
that Rott completed his only symphony in 1880, eight years befor Mahler's 
first.  The influence of Rott can thereafter be observed in all of 
Mahler's symphonies."  --Stig Jacobsson

This does not mean that Rott was where Mahler got all his inspiration,
it simply means he was influenced by him, at times more than others.
It is not a condemnation of Mahler and should not be taken as such.

Adam




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