HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mike@drseus.jsc.nasa.gov (Mike Ross)
Subject: Re: Freedom, Social Responsibility, Individual Responsibility
Organization: Lockheed Engineering & Sciences Company
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 14:49:41 GMT

In article <1992Dec18.005445.26095@Celestial.COM> bill@Celestial.COM (Bill Campbell) writes:
>In <1992Dec14.233536.29525@igor.tamri.com> donb@igor.tamri.com (Don Baldwin) writes:
>
>:People are being told by the government that they have to wear a helmet
>:when they ride, despite the fact that there is no way their helmetless
>:state could cause physical harm to another person.  In that case, there's
>:no reason for the government to get involved and it IS acting in an
>:oppressive way...
>
>I believe the rationale in the helmet laws is that other people
>may end up paying the increased medical costs because of injuries
>resulting from an accident without a helmet.
>

One thing I've never seen proposed, for ALL helmet and seatbelt laws,
is have the insurance companies require safety equipment usage for
coverage to be intact.  If you don't want your personal freedom
infringed upon, you would be forced to pay a higher premium.  This
keeps the government out of it.

The downside I see is the insurance companies may go to extreme
lengths to prove you weren't using your required equipment, so 
they wouldn't have to pay.  Hopefully the burden of proof would
be on them.

I have only followed this thread off-and-on, so pardon me if
someone has already discussed this.

-mike

-- 
******************************** mike@drseus.jsc.nasa.gov *****
* Michael L. Ross/C33 | Lockheed Engineering & Sciences Co.   *
* Robotics Department | 2400 Nasa Rd. 1, Houston, TX 77062    *
*(713)333-7094 voice,(713)333-7201 fax**********boring, eh?****
Newsgroups: seattle.general
From: peterk@seanews.akita.com (Peter Klein)
Subject: Re: Urban humor of sorts....
Organization: SEANEWS - Seattle Public Access News & Mail
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 16:54:20 GMT


bigstar@hardy.washington.edu writes, musing on an overzealous
jogger-cum-citizen-policeman:

> You know, a friend tells me that Foucault speaks of the concern about
> litter as a tool to teach policing skills to the public at large, thus
> indoctrinating the public with the mindset that it is somehow a "good"
> thing to bust your fellow neighbor... I don't know if this is
neccesarily
> the case, but there must be some logical explanation as to why people
remain
> docile as the news rolls across their face and become violently angry
at
> seemingly inconsequential activity....
 
You read this newsgroup, and you wonder?

;-)    ;-)     ;-)
-- 
--Peter (Peter A. Klein)            :    -----==3==      ___      ___
peterk@seanews.akita.com            :   |    |  |  |    |   |    |   |
                                    :  @|   @| @| @|   @|  @|   @|  @|
Newsgroups: seattle.general
From: sds@jazzie.com (Sean Shapira)
Subject: Re: FREE CHOICE QUESTION
Organization: Jazzie Systems, Seattle, Washington, USA
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 07:04:49 GMT

In article <josh.724197683@pogo> josh@cqs.washington.edu (Josh Hayes) writes:
>Some rights are important, some are completely trivial. Abortion
>rights are in the first category, and bicycle helmets are in the latter.
>Who gets to decide what goes in what category? Why, WE do. If millions
>of people yell and scream about bicycle helmets, they will demonstrate
>that it is an important "right" 

Josh, I simply can't agree that the screaming millions should
determine which rights are important.  To the contrary, there's 
as much danger in a society where rights are granted or denied 
by a democratic process as in a society where they are granted 
or denied by a dictator.

Allowing a government, no matter how well intentioned and no
matter how democratic, to constrain any of our liberties is a
threat to the sanctity of them all.  Our government was formed 
to "secure the blessings of liberty," not to take them away.  
-- 
Sean Shapira        seans@microsoft.com        sds@jazzie.com
Newsgroups: seattle.general
From: dxxb@hardy.u.washington.edu (David Barts)
Subject: Re: Does anyone read Seattle PI today?
Organization: University of Washington
Distribution: seattle
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 17:11:11 GMT

adamy@carson.u.washington.edu (Adam E.C. Yeh) writes:

>Seattle Post-Intelligencer, Thursday, December 17, 1992 (Page A2) reports:
>"South Korea election may be milestone for democracy." however, in the
>captions of the accompanied picture, it reports that everything was
>happening in Taiwan.

> SOUTH KOREA is not TAIWAN
> [edited]

Haven't read Thursday's P-I, but I find your story 100% believable.

Generally, I've given up on the US media as a source of accurate information
about international news stories, largely because of inexcusable errors like
the one Adam relates.  I've been listening to BBC (and CBC (Canadian), ABC
(Australian)) world news reports via shortwave since my early teens, and over
the years I've realized just how bad a job the US media does on covering
international events.  (Yes, this includes PBS and NPR, although they
generally do a better job than the commercial networks.)

Buy the Times or P-I for local or regional news.  But if its international
news you want, buy a shortwave receiver.

-- 
David Barts  N5JRN                      UW Civil Engineering, FX-10
davidb@ce.washington.edu                Seattle, WA  98195
Newsgroups: seattle.general
From: lurch@eskimo.com (Erik Kloeppel)
Subject: Re: bissel/regina carpet cleaners
Keywords: carpet cleaners
Organization: -> ESKIMO NORTH (206) For-Ever <-
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 08:36:24 GMT

Ref cleaners: I worked in the industry for a couple years, and found
that MOST of the cleaners are junk. period.  They don't do a good job,
and break too easily.  you are far better off hiring a professional -
if the carpet or upholstery warrants it.

on the other hand, if the carpet or upholstery is of average quality,
renting a Rug Doctor or some otgher "steam" cleaner is fine.  Stay
away from cleaners with brushes that move horizontally (along the
pland of the fabric)  If you can find a brush-type cleaner that has
a vacuum type brush (where the axis of rotation is paralel to the 
fabric) you are better off.

And - more thn anything else - find a good alcohol based detergent.
if you use an oil based detergent, you can go back weeks later  and
raise a lather.  With alcohol based detergents simply vacuum when 
the fabric is dry and 90% of the soap is gone.


-- 
****************************************************************************
|                                      |                                   |
|          lurch@eskimo.com            |         Does the Noise in my      |
|          lurch@delphi.com            |             Head Bother You?      |
Newsgroups: seattle.general
From: delisle@eskimo.com (Stompem)
Subject: Re: smog laws
Organization: -> ESKIMO NORTH (206) For-Ever <-
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 23:33:50 GMT

	A connection of threads....
	Since smog is a health issue, and they are requireing 
helmets for all bicycle riders as it is a ``health and safety issue;''
then why don't the ban the use of any lead gasoline as lead is
a nasty nurotoxin and is harmful, especially to children. 

--
UUCP old:        delisle@eskimo.celestial.com
Internet direct: delisle@eskimo.com

Newsgroups: seattle.general
From: gwangung@byron.u.washington.edu (Roger Tang)
Subject: Re: Does anyone read Seattle PI today?
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Distribution: seattle
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 19:38:56 GMT

In article <1992Dec18.171111.9082@u.washington.edu> dxxb@hardy.u.washington.edu (David Barts) writes:
>adamy@carson.u.washington.edu (Adam E.C. Yeh) writes:
>>Seattle Post-Intelligencer, Thursday, December 17, 1992 (Page A2) reports:
>>"South Korea election may be milestone for democracy." however, in the
>>captions of the accompanied picture, it reports that everything was
>>happening in Taiwan.

>> SOUTH KOREA is not TAIWAN
>> [edited]
>
>Haven't read Thursday's P-I, but I find your story 100% believable.

	Hmmm.....I read that portion of the paper.

	However, what >I< saw was that there was a feature article on
South Korea and a picture about Taiwan.  And that the two of them were
SEPARATED by a box around the picutre.

	More a case of sloppy lay out than outright stupidity.

-- 
	"I got into theatre originally to pick up girls. Unfortunately, all I
found were women..."
e-mail:  gwangung@u.washington.edu
From: january@eskimo.com (Jamie Pehling)
Subject: Re: Individual Choice Suborned!
Organization: -> ESKIMO NORTH (206) For-Ever <-
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 23:52:05 GMT

Mark Crispin <mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU> writes:

[modified conflation of the IQ with the wit, and
reference to 'suborned' pun, deleted]

>Surely the leftist self-proclaimed ``intellectual elite'' figured it
>out, even if they loathe the politics behind it?

Ironically, in my experience it is the intolerant
right wing that behaves as if its pronouncements are
Truth, a hallmark of intellectual elitism.  I am
sure there are counterexamples, however.  Mark? :)

The pun, if such it may be called, continues to
elude my humble powers of rationality, but I have never
found Mark's sentiments to be entirely amenable to
rational analysis (vitriol usually is not).  As for
my wit, I make no claims in this regard.
-- 
Jamie Pehling <january@eskimo.com>
From: das@voodoo.boeing.com (Deb Schwartz)
Newsgroups: seattle.general
Subject: Re: Bulk blackstrap molasses?
Date: 11 Dec 92 17:31:21 GMT
Distribution: seattle
Organization: Yet Another Graphics Project, Bellevue, WA

In article <2982@uswnvg.uswnvg.com> sbarton@uswnvg.com (Sue Barton) writes:
>It seems to me that you can find blackstrap at any of the Puget Consumer
>Co-ops in the area as well as some of the smaller co-ops.   

You can get it in bottles at PCC, but I don't think the bulk molasses is
blackstrap (although I may be wrong on this).
------
Debbie Schwartz // das@voodoo.ca.boeing.com  // ....uw-beaver!bcsaic!voodoo!das

Newsgroups: seattle.general,pnw.general,alt.society.civil-liberty,misc.talk.politics,alt.activism,alt.individualism,rec.bicycles,talk.politics.misc
From: bdsuba@lims02.lerc.nasa.gov (PANDAMAN)
Subject: Re: Freedom, Social Responsibility, Individual Responsibility
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Keywords: Helmet Laws, Drug Laws, etc.
Organization: Turner Ranch. Blood Butte, Texas
Date: 11 Dec 1992 13:32 EST  

In article <1992Dec10.023007.16159@eskimo.com>, nanook@eskimo.com (Robert Dinse) writes...

                [some stuff deleted]

>     Society SHOULD be responsible for protecting YOU from ME and ME from
>YOU, society should not be responsible for protecting me from myself.  If we
>decide, as a society, that the costs of bad choices are not worth bearing,
>then perhaps we should just refuse to bear those costs.  I'm sorry, you
>scattered your brains all over the pavement as a result of decisions you made,
>that's too bad, if you die you die.

And this is precisely why we find ourselves with these silly laws. Our 
society will never allow individuals to bear the consequences of their 
individual choices.

>     I think the benefits of bearing those costs, are worth the expense and
>we should not do that.  We should not however, be so willing to give up our
>freedom, that others, who realized the value of that freedom, fought and gave
>their lives to aquire.
> 
>     I think we need to put the burden of individual responsibility back on
>the individual, rather than on society.  The concept, you are responsible for
>your actions, is one we MUST adopt, society can not be effectively
>responsible for individual actions, that is plainly demonstrated by the way
>society deals with drug related problems.

I agree, but it will never happen. American individuals have been very 
adept at finding others who are responsible for their bad decisions, many 
times it is the government who is ultimately responsible. Sad, isn't it?

>     It is ok to educate and try to pursuade someone to make the right choice,
>it is quite another to make that choice for them, when that choice is one that
>primarily affects them.

Unfortunately, I find myself paying for others' bad decisions. And as long 
as this trend continues, I have no choice but to help them make good 
decisions, usually through legislation.  Sorry.


>     Yes, you might have to, as an individual bear a small portion of the cost
>of maintaining someone in a vegatative state, they paid a much larger cost!
> 
Newsgroups: seattle.general,pnw.general,alt.society.civil-liberty,misc.talk.poli
From: dcb@kopachuk.uucp (David Breneman)
Subject: Re: Freedom, Social Responsibility, Individual Responsibility
Organization: Tacoma Screw Products, Inc.
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 20:49:01 GMT

In article <1992Dec14.173732.26630@tessi.com> allen@tessi.com (Allen Warren) writes:
>
>Pretty soon we're all going to be buying products that come with a 
>small novella of disclaimers:  "While riding this or any motorcycle,
>you shouldn't remove your hand from the brake to pick your nose as
>this may cause you to lose concentration, as well as capability of
>using the brake and thus may cause an accident."  Sound silly?  Yes,

Deletions...

>                          As the ladder sank, it sank unevenly, causing
>the farmer to become unbalanced, fall and break his arm, whereby a lawyer
>represented the farmer in a lawsuit stating that "The manufacturer did
>NOT come out with a warning stating that it was not advised that the ladder
>be set on top of a frozen pile of cow dung, etc., etc., etc.,".  Sound
>far-fetched?  Now in today's world!


If anybody wants an education as to the results of government over-regulation
of everyday objects combined with neoNaderist (I kinda like that word :-)
sue-everybody-who-didn't-stop-me-from-being-a-dummy liability litigation,
go into a hardware store and *read* a new ladder.  Since we have hundreds
in stock here, I'll be glad to summarize for anybody who can't make the
trip.

-- 
David Breneman     Sys Admin, Tacoma Screw Products, Inc. |  ____  ____  ____
dcb@tacoma.uucp           |   SCREWIE the TSP CLOWN sez-  |   /   /___  /___/ 
 ..!uunet!tacoma!dcb      | "Zinc & cadmium plating stops |  /   ____/ / 
CompuServe: <DEAD>        |  rust & acts as a lubricant!" |
Newsgroups: seattle.general,pnw.general,alt.society.civil-liberty,misc.talk.politics,alt.activism,alt.individualism,rec.bicycles.misc,talk.politics.misc
From: bill@Celestial.COM (Bill Campbell)
Subject: Re: Freedom, Social Responsibility, Individual Responsibility
Organization: Celestial Software, Mercer Island, WA
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 00:54:45 GMT

In <1992Dec14.233536.29525@igor.tamri.com> donb@igor.tamri.com (Don Baldwin) writes:

:People are being told by the government that they have to wear a helmet
:when they ride, despite the fact that there is no way their helmetless
:state could cause physical harm to another person.  In that case, there's
:no reason for the government to get involved and it IS acting in an
:oppressive way...

I believe the rationale in the helmet laws is that other people
may end up paying the increased medical costs because of injuries
resulting from an accident without a helmet.

Using this theory, one could say that all people who cannot afford
to properly raise children should be sterilized since society is
going to have to pay for these children (sounds good to me :-).

Bill
-- 
INTERNET:  bill@Celestial.COM   Bill Campbell; Celestial Software
UUCP:   ...!thebes!camco!bill   6641 East Mercer Way
             uunet!camco!bill   Mercer Island, WA 98040; (206) 947-5591
SPEED COSTS MONEY -- HOW FAST DO YOU WANT TO GO?
Xref: sparky seattle.general:4088 pnw.general:2919 alt.society.civil-liberty:6904 alt.activism:19579 alt.individualism:6086 rec.bicycles.misc:1546 talk.politics.misc:64246
From: donb@igor.tamri.com (Don Baldwin)
Newsgroups: seattle.general,pnw.general,alt.society.civil-liberty,misc.talk.politics,alt.activism,alt.individualism,rec.bicycles.misc,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: Freedom, Social Responsibility, Individual Responsibility
Date: 14 Dec 92 23:35:36 GMT
Organization: TOSHIBA America MRI, South San Francisco, CA

In article <1992Dec13.223549.25391@hounix.org> wlarkin@hounix.org (Ward Larkin)
writes:
>>Perhaps these activities will not be eliminated in that order or
>>others will be eliminated first. But if the government is not
>>stopped from trying to be your "mom" you will find all of your rights,
>>not just your right to the pursuit of happiness, eventually gone; for
>>your own safety of course.
>>
>>I know, I know, the founding fathers meant something a little
>>different when they were talking about the pursuit of happiness. But
>>it sounded good and it really is not that far off from what they were
>>talking about.....
>>
>What you don't seem to know is that "pursuit of happiness"
>is part of the Declaration of Independence, and thereore
>has absolutely no legal basis nor bearing.
>
>The Fifth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States
>of America has a somewhat similar phrase ( that is, the
>life, liberty and pursuit of happiness phrase ) but's it's
>intent is to protect the people from oppressive government,
>not to assure the people the freedom to do whatever they
>wish.

Er, um, yeah.

People are being told by the government that they have to wear a helmet
when they ride, despite the fact that there is no way their helmetless
state could cause physical harm to another person.  In that case, there's
no reason for the government to get involved and it IS acting in an
oppressive way...

   don
Newsgroups: seattle.general
From: guru@halcyon.com (Dennis Wicks)
Subject: Trimming Followups!
Summary: Be careful, dammit!
Organization: The 23:00 News and Mail Service
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 03:44:40 GMT

In the past two weeks I have seen four posts attributing
statements to me that I never made!  In fact, the articles did
not contain _anything_ that I ever posted on the subject in
question or any other subject!

If you don't know how to figure out who said what, then leave it
alone and repost the whole thing!  I would rather figure it out
myself than start getting flames for things I never wrote!  And I
suspect others feel the same way.

Thanks for paying attention to your trimming!
From: pkdewey@uswnvg.com (Peter Dewey)
Newsgroups: seattle.general
Subject: condoms in public schools
Date: 15 Dec 92 05:47:32 GMT
Distribution: seattle
Organization: US West NewVector, Inc., Bellevue, WA
Originator: pkdewey@nv10.uswnvg.com

Subject: Re: Condoms in Public Schools
Newsgroups: seattle.general
Organization: 
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

I think that,during this disscussion, folks may have lost
the sight of who these free condoms would help.
These teens are the ones who have in many instances been 
conceived by other teens as the were (possibly) attending highschool.
I see all these high brow arguments about abstinence and morality 
and sex being a risk and who's responsible etc etc (although not
all of the arguments are off on the wrong track.)....
Condoms for students has nothing to do with morality,abstinence or
*subtle* acceptance of promiscuous behaivoir. It has to do with 
helping teens have better lives,breaking the cycle of poverty and
welfare dependance. When you teach teens about sex, a large percentage
of them will get the message, those from middle income family's or
those lucky enough to have parents who give a shit about their welfare.
But for the rest....you use ANY MEANS necessary to keep them from getting
pregnant,getting HIV,to keep them in school.

That is not to say that don't believe that
 sex education should be taught in school
and that condoms should be given out to all student regardless of social
standing, because I do. 
I know I am ignoring some fine points in the previous posts,I am just
speaking from experience with trying to keep teens from getting pregnant.

--------
Speaking my mind,which US West has no control over.(yet....)
Newsgroups: seattle.general
From: lowell@tc.fluke.COM (Lowell Skoog)
Subject: Re: Freedom, Social Responsibility, Individual Responsibility
Keywords: Helmet Laws, Drug Laws, etc.
Reply-To: lowell@tc.fluke.COM (Lowell Skoog)
Organization: John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc., Everett, WA
Distribution: seattle
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 01:44:55 GMT

klg@statsci.com (Kevin L. Gross) writes:

>You conveniently and completely ignored my point
>that *YOUR* sport of mountain climbing is far more dangerous than riding
>a bike/motorcycle without a helmet, not only to yourself but to possible
>rescuers.  But since no one is coming after *YOUR* freedom, you say its OK
>to eliminate *MINE*.

I ignored your point because it didn't seem relevant.  You were
talking about outlawing climbing.  Nobody is talking about outlawing
bicycling.

A more relevant analogy would be to require all mountain climbers to
wear helmets.  I might or might not agree with such a regulation.
That's not the point.  The point is that even if it were enacted, I
wouldn't consider it an infringement of my basic (i.e.
constitutional) freedoms.  I might consider it annoying, but not a
big crisis.

The tendency to blow up a minor regulation like a helmet law into a
major threat to liberty is what I called "civic claustrophobia".

					--Lowell Skoog
Newsgroups: seattle.general
From: nanook@eskimo.com (Robert Dinse)
Subject: Puget Sound Computer User
Organization: -> ESKIMO NORTH (206) For-Ever <-
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 20:14:34 GMT


     I continuously receive mail to the effect that the listing for Eskimo
North is incorrect in the Puget Sound Computer User magazine.

     It is suggested that I, the sysop of Eskimo North, update the listing.

     I have tried.  I've sent at least a dozen letters to Puget Sound
Computer User, posted on their bbs, phoned them, all to no avail.

     If anybody out there knows the secret to pursuading Puget Sound Computer
User to correct the listing for Eskimo North, I'm all ears!
From: jstaffe@uswnvg.com (Jarrod Staffen)
Newsgroups: seattle.general
Subject: Re: Local Phone Cell Structure
Date: 15 Dec 92 04:34:04 GMT
Distribution: seattle
Organization: U S WEST NewVector Group, Inc.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

Ted Van Zwol (vanzwol@bcstec.ca.boeing.com) wrote:
--> In article <1992Dec10.225139.19313@u.washington.edu> kint@rio.engr.washington.edu (Rick Kint) writes:
--> >	Does anyone know details about the current structure of the 
--> >local cellular phone systems?  I'm curious as to how many cells there
--> >are in Seattle and/or the Puget Sound area, and the approximate size
--> 
--> 
--> I sure don't know, but I'll tell you it's not enough.  It was bad enough to
--> get through when stuck in the snow two years ago.  Now that everyone and their
--> brother has a phone and stuck on the freeway in the snow at the same time
--> yesterday, it sometimes took 10 minutes before I get anything but the fast
--> busy signal.  Maybe it's more of a problem with Cellular One than US West
--> (let the flames and defending commence).

U S WEST Cellular has (+ or - a few pendings) 92 cell sites in the 
Puget Sound area (68 switched out of Seattle, 24 out of Tacoma).  

BTW, when the weather gets bad and lines go down, cellular has proven 
to be the MOST reliable mode of telephone communication.  If the 
landline systems overload with calls and downed lines,  do as I did
and make an operator assisted call.  I don't know exactly what they do
differently, but I was able to make calls this way when it took others
more than 10 minutes to dial out.

As for U S WEST having better coverage, I agree.  Especially in the
San Juans and Cascades east of North Bend.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Jarrod Staffen                                         Spontaneity has
    jstaffe@uswnvg.com				       its time and place.
*     The opinions expressed here are not claimed or supported by anyone.     *

Newsgroups: seattle.general