HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: locklin@henry.ece.cmu.edu (Scott Locklin)
Subject: Re: rosicrucians
Organization: Electrical and Computer Engineering, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 04:33:29 GMT


A good source for rosicru's and other such groups is Akhron Dahrul's "History
of Secret Societies"...
R.A. Wilson uses it in his "Illuminatus" books...

-Scott
From: ralex@pail.rain.com (Randy Alexander)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Any Circles in Portland OR?
Keywords: WICCA WITCHCRAFT CIRCLE CIRCLES PORTLAND OREGON
Date: 31 Jul 92 01:51:13 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Rick's Home-Grown Un*x

I am looking for a circle to join here in Portland OR, Anyone
here a member of any, No particular group or style, I'm still
looking for my nitch. Thanks
 
Randy
ralex@pail.rain.com

-- 
+----------------------------------------+---------------------------------+
| INTERNET:  ralex@pail.rain.com         | Only AMIGA Makes it Possible    |
|            ralex@bucket.rain.com       |---------------------------------|
|            ralex@euclid.humbolt.edu    | The opinions expressed in the   |
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: n8743494@rowlf.cc.wwu.edu (The Stranger)
Subject: Re: Possible to obtain magic powers>?
Organization: Western Washington University
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 17:09:04 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.042303.944@eskimo.celestial.com> victim@eskimo.celestial.com (Tony Garton) writes:
>
>The reference to D&D type magick does bring up an interesting question
>since I am an avid RPG gamer.  Does any RPG exist that uses a magick
>system confined to 
>'real magick'?  My gamemaster allows one of our chars (a gypsy fortune
>teller) to use a quabbles deck for divination in the game.  I think that
>magickal rituals could be handled based on skill, time involved, work
>involved in assembling components, etc.  I think a game of this type
>might go a long way toward educating the gaming populace about real
>magick.

There is already several RPG that have such a system.  GURPS has a system
where each spell is learned seperitly with seperit skill levels for each 
spell.  Shadowrun has something simular.  They both do not had the spell-
caster froget the spell after they cast it, more realistic IMHO.  However
they both have a limiting facter on the spellcasters so one doesn't cast
fireballs all day.  

Personaly I am glad that some of these fantisy spells do not execst.  Can 
you imagen a squad of spellcasters at the beck and call of a goverment?
Not a nice imige.

The Stranger

Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: rosicrucians
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 18:52:31 GMT

winstel@kit.uni-kl.de (Rainer Winstel) writes:
: Is there anybody who knows the Order of the Rosicrucians. The girl-friend of 
: a friend is worshiper of this ancient group.  
: I would be happy to get some informations.

Ancient? I believe the earliest informtion is from around 1870? The Rosy
Cross Order is certainly not ancient.

Bill
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: BLACK CROWS
Date: 22 Jul 92 18:54:34 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA

blewis@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Benn L. Lewis) writes:
: 
: 
:         I could use the help of the internet for this one:
: 
:         OK, i was on the phone with this female (who has a serious
: boyfriend) and this crow flew up to my window and started
: pecking on the screen-  DOES THIS MEAN I'M GONNA GET LUCKY????
: 
:         is it a sign or something?

It is a sign - most likely a sign that there are bugs caught in the
mesh of the screen.

Bill
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: bradley@jester.usask.ca (Alan Bradley)
Subject: Re: The art of tarot
Organization: University of Saskatchewan
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 15:07:53 GMT


	Interesting comments on these decks. What do you think of the Haindl
Tarot, and the two attendant volumes Rachel Pollack has penned to accompany
it?
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: BLACK CROWS
Date: 23 Jul 92 23:41:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Jul23.171148.4987@openage.openage.com>, gryphon@openage.openage.com (The Golden Gryphon) writes...
>cipher@lacerta.unm.edu (Rev. J. B. Bell) writes:
> 
>>In article <84093@netnews.upenn.edu> blewis@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Benn L. Lewis) writes:
>>>
>>>        OK, i was on the phone with this female (who has a serious
>>>boyfriend) and this crow flew up to my window and started
>>>pecking on the screen-  DOES THIS MEAN I'M GONNA GET LUCKY????
>>>
>>>        is it a sign or something?
>>>
>>>blewis@eniac.seas
> 
>>I'm sorry to be the one to tell you this, but it definitely means that
>>you are going to have your pecker (you see, the "pecking" of the crow,
>>traditionally a bad omen) removed with a french-fry maker, probably by
>>the "female's" boyfriend.
> 
>>                          With best wishes for your recovery,
> 
>>                          --Rev. J. B. Bell
> 
>You know I'm a little disappointed with the responses to this message.  Someone
>else beleives they have a mystical experience, and you people all just make
>fun of him.  I would honestly be interested to know what typical signicance
>is attached to large black birds.  Mystically speaking. 
>-- 
>The Golden Gryphon 				gryphon@openage.COM

Relax GG.  The encounter with the french-fry maker is a perfectly 
valid interpretation of this encounter with the crow.  What makes 
you think its a joke?

There's quite a bit about crows in Castaneda's first book, "The Teachings of 
Don Juan: A Yaqui Way of Knowledge," though I have no idea 
whether or not this is *typical* of crow symbolism found in other 
shaman traditions.

"You are already a crow.  You will never change that.  From now on 
the crows will tell you with their flight about every turn of 
your fate...Don Juan interpreted the different patterns of flight 
the crows would observe to foretell my personal future or fate.  He set 
up the four points of the compass as the axis of the crows' 
flight.  I asked him whether the crows always followed the 
cardinal points to tell a man's fate.  He said that the 
orientation was mine alone; whatever the crows did in my first 
meetings with them was of crucial importance.  He insisted on my 
recalling every detail, for the messge and the pattern of the 
"emissaries" were an individual, personalized matter.  There was 
one more thing he insisted I should remember, and that was the 
time of day when the emissaries left me...This indication of the 
time places your lst emissaries at the end of the day.  They will 
call you, and as they fly above your head, they will become 
silvery white; you will see them shining against the sky, and it 
will mean your time is up.  It will mean you are going to die and 
become a crow yourself."

- Peggy -
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: Intellectual involvement in Magick
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 18:37:07 GMT


>Mike Smuga-otto writes:

>This approach to Magick, when stated in such simple terms, gave me a somewhat
>startling jolt.  I became interested in Magick as another way of exploring
>the self - and as such, I forgot that self-transcendence requires the 
>cessation of the "internal dialogue". Bummer. There is hope, however, for the
>intellectual position. I had recently read (_The Devils of Loudun_ by Aldous
>Huxley), that in their later and mellower years, the Jesuits (which were a
>strict ritualistic organization) had allowed silent meditation as a method
>of prayer.  They thus encouraged "internal dialogue" as a means of gaining
>a better understanding of the mystical universe.  Could this attitude not also
>succeed in Magick, where currently complex ritual is used to blot out any and
>all thoughts?

Um, I think you have some very distorted ideas about the Society of Jesus.

1.  They are not past tense--my brother is a Jesuit
2.  They were never a strict ritualistic organisation.  Their founder, Ignatius
de Loyola, wrote _The Spirirtual Exercises_, which is the series of path-
workings which *every* Jesuit has been required to go through in his formation.
It is true that the emphasis taught with the Exercises has varies over the
centuries, often focussing on the discursive aspects to the exclusion of the
contemplative and affective, but that was never the intention of Ignatius.
3.  Is is not certain that the Society of Jesus is any mellower than in the
past.  They simply do not have as much secular power.
4.  Though the Jesuits have often gone overboard on the intellectual side, this
is not the intention of the Spiritual Exercises.  They are designed to begin in
the intellect and to extend to the whole person, including the parts of the
person which are not conscious.  Ignatian spirituality appeals to intellectuals,
but is itself substantially more than intellectual.

              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
                               Br'anArthur

Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: ron@vicorp.com (Ron Peterson)
Subject: Odd Fellows
Organization: V. I. Corporation, Northampton, Massachusetts
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 21:54:52 GMT


Anyone ever heard of a club/society called "Odd Fellows"?  I've seen
their signs (in odd places) in various cities and wondered what they
were up to.
ron@vicorp.com or uunet!vicorp!ron
From: cal@otter.hpl.hp.com (Colin Low)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 08:37:02 GMT
Subject: Re: The Middle Pillar ritual, help needed
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Bristol, UK.
Newsgroups: alt.magick

B.A. Davis-Howe writes:
>
>The main part of this post is Appendix C of _The Ritual Magic Workbook_ by
>Delores Ashcroft-Nowiki.  I have no experience with using this form, since I
>will not use Kabbalah in ritual.  (I believe that using Kabbalah in ritual,
>other than devotional ritual, is contrary to the intention of the Jews who
>developed the Kabbalah.  See Z'ev Ben Shimon Halevi's _Kabbalah: Tradition of
>Hidden Knowledge_ to hear a Jewish point of view on the subject.)  Other than
>the fact that it uses Kabbalah, as do allmost all texts on CM, the book is
>excellent.  I recommend it highly to anyone wanting to learn CM.

Z'ev Ben Shimon Halevi's (aka Warren Kenton's) reservations about ritual
have more to do with being Warren Kenton and less to do with being Jewish.
 
>a few basic books on Ceremonialist Kabbalah.  I have developed a similar ritual
>form, without any use of Hebrew or other concepts which are not natural to the
>dominant Western Culture, using both this G.D version and the parallel forms
>in the Aurum Solis material and an inspiration of one of the members of our
>Community.

I don't know what this dominant Western Culture is, but it obviously isn't
the one I live in. I make a habit of walking into old churches, and every
church I have visited this year has been richly adorned with scenes (in
stone, stained glass, wood) from Jewish sacred literature. Virtually
any old church in any old community, and this appears to be true in all
the European countries I have visited.

Your dislike of Kabbalah as the basis for your personal practise is a matter
of taste, and I would certainly not question that, but opinions about
whether Hebrew or Kabbalah are natural to the "dominant Western Culture"
are highly questionable, and might even be construed as insulting by the
large number of Jews who have been active members of almost every
European community of any size for a very long time indeed.

Colin 
 

 
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: victim@eskimo.celestial.com (Tony Garton)
Subject: Re: Possible to obtain magic powers>?
Organization: =>ESKIMO NORTH (206) 367-3837 SEATTLE, WA.<=
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 04:23:03 GMT


The reference to D&D type magick does bring up an interesting question
since I am an avid RPG gamer.  Does any RPG exist that uses a magick
system confined to 
'real magick'?  My gamemaster allows one of our chars (a gypsy fortune
teller) to use a quabbles deck for divination in the game.  I think that
magickal rituals could be handled based on skill, time involved, work
involved in assembling components, etc.  I think a game of this type
might go a long way toward educating the gaming populace about real
magick.
From: taylor@castor.cs.uga.edu (Brad Taylor)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: IOT
Date: 25 Jul 92 15:34:41 GMT
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens

I'm interested in email corraspondance with those involved with the IOT or
related projects (TOPY included)......


taylor@castor.cs.uga.edu
Organization: Sophomore, Chemistry, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 22:12:58 -0400 
From: "Stephen P. Marting" <sm6h+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Runes (was Re: Odinism Help for Newbie)

Excerpts from alt.magick: 23-Jul-92 Re: Runes (was Re: Odinism Help for
Newbie) by "Tim O'Neill"@english.utas.edu.au 
> Page's
> reassesment of runes and magic is particularly interesting; he 
> argues that the runes were simply an alphabet, and only used for
> magical inscriptions in the way any alphabet was. There was nothing 
> intrinsically magical about the runes.

Elliott pretty much has the same stance.  He notes where mention is made
of runic divination (in *fictional* works, often), but doesn't say that
they have ANY "intrinsic" magic - see my next sentence:

> > However, Elliott doesn't do very much in the area of runic divination. 
> >
> I've made a study of books on runic divination over the last four years
> and, since both Old English and Old Norse are my fields, I've read all
> of the primary literature that I can get my hands on, and in the original
> laguages when possible. I can assure you that runic divination is a 
> MODERN invention. There is no evidence that it was ever practiced by the 
> early germanics. Tacitus mentions several means of divination including
> the randomn selection of slivers of wood marked with 'signs', but there 
> is no evidence that these were runic and other than this there is NO 
> OTHER EVIDENCE FOR RUNIC DIVINATION WHATSOEVER from the middle ages.
> It's a con-job.

Yes, Elliott also mentions Tacitus.  I think what you've missed here is
the message that *I* was replying to - someone wanted help with Runic
divination.  See the Subject line for further details.  All I was doing
was pointing out that Blum's book is trash, and Elliott's will teach
about runes, and there are other books out there that deal with using
them for divination.

Nowhere did I say that I believed that runes had any powers.  In fact, I
believe they don't.  I say the same about Tarot.  I just think they're
really useful things as far as letting your subconscious tell you what
your problems are - just like dream interpretation.  With that attitude,
I was helping the original poster find out as much about runes as (s)he
could before attempting to divine with them.  Don't flame me, I just
work here.

--
Spam is:               | This statement needs no qualifiers.
Steve Marting          | Most people never call me this.
spam+@cmu.edu          | A cute address that wastes computing resources.
sm6h+@andrew.cmu.edu   | Above and below are forwarded here.
R746SM6H@CMCCVB.bitnet | Extra storage space.
"Is 'Spam' a word?" - Parker Lewis Can't Lose
From: erc@unislc.uucp (Ed Carp)
Subject: Re: Possible to Obtain magic powers>?
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 17:24:30 GMT

jds2@po.CWRU.Edu (John D. Specht) writes:

: I think I would find being all-powerful INTENSLEY boring. That's probably one
: of the few reasons I'm not. The only limitation of the individual are the ones
: he/she chooses. (Richard Bach, _Illusions_) As for the part about "what

But you are.  All of us are all-powerful.  We have accepted the limitations of
flesh so that we can experience those limits, and learn from them.

: >urealistic. Each person comes into this world to learn something. Some
: When did you discover this information? If you found it in yourself, it is
: true for you. If your teacher told you, and you chose to believe, it is 
: true for both of you.

Are you saying that it is not true for you?  There are basic rules by which
the universe operates, and that is one of them.

: >integrety, which again is a learning process.
: I have no integrity in the social sense of the term. I would as easily kill 
: a lady as kiss her, depending on the necessary behavior. (What _I_ decide is
: necessary.) And I have no appreciation for that which does not benefit me 

Then what do you base your decisions on?  Are you not ruled by your own karma?
Killing will generate a large amount of disharmonious karma.  Kissing her, in
some circumstances, may also generate disharmonious karma.

: used. Every individual's perceptions are tainted by every previous 
: perception, and making the individual aware of this is a great first step
: in enlightenment.

Only for children is this a "great step".  Every student of Zen, every monk
in a monastary, learns this as a necessary first step.
-- 
Ed Carp, N7EKG		erc@apple.com	<-- preferred email address!
"In wildness is the preservation of the world."  - Henry David Thoreau
** Member, Linux port team - uucp division ** :)   801/269-8125
From: cranmer@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Ritual and everyday life
Date: 23 Jul 92 19:43:06 EDT

 Hello,

   All the 'theoretical' talk about magick recently (in the 'Possible
 to obtain magic powers' thread) has got me thinking about the role of
 ritual and ceremony in the magical life.

   Ritual is a very interesting and powerful art form, but it isn't
 everything.  Also important, as I think Tagi recently mentioned, is the
 'art' of living everyday life in a magical and spiritual fashion -- in
 the real world 'out there.'

   Both ways of 'doing magick' have their strong and weak points, although
 in many traditions as one advances in skill/atunement/whatever, the need
 for isolated rituals and 'spells' decreases as one becomes more 'at one'
 with oneself and/or the world.  This weaning off isolated ritual, however,
 may contain dangers.  Could it lead to the living of life in a constant
 otherworldly 'haze?'  Is this desirable?  Well, I may just leave those
 questions unanswered (for myself at least) till I get to that point.

   I've been doing a lot of study of the Golden Dawn system of magic(k?),
 and I'm starting to visualize the dichotomy between ritual and the 'every-
 day' in terms of the Kaballah.  The 10 sephiroth can represent rituals
 (the grade ceremonies for the GD), and the 22 *paths* seem to be able to 
 represent the *application* of what is learned/revealed in the rituals to
 ones own 'living practice.'  Neat.

   Any comments and opinions are of course welcome......

					 - Steve Cranmer

 PS - I also have been working on the idea of 'solitary' versions of
      the G.D. grade rituals.  Not just doing the 'official' ceremonies
      in the 'astral', but actually altering their structure to support
      only one 'celebrant.'  If anyone is interested, I could post or
      email the first draft of my solitary 0=0 ritual.
From: Tagi@cup.portal.com (Tagi Mordred Nagashiva)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Runes (was Re: Odinism Help for Newbie)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 05:35:59 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
  <1992Jul23.050943.16710@newsroom.utas.edu.au>
  <1992Jul24.164422.14522@burrhus.harvard.edu>

9207.25 e.v.  (Saturn's Day)


Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
The word of Sin is Restriction.


Alot of posting about relatively little has occurred in an attempt to
'establish' what is and is not historically valuable as far as runic
divination systems go (particularly Norse).


My response:

First of all, if we are going to begin reviewing books and such with
respect to their VALUE, then historicism is hardly a fair means to
do this.  It would seem that personal experience with the various
systems is a more accurate source.  What worked for previous (and
for some 'alien') cultures may not fit our needs now.

People seem to assume that historical accuracy is valuable in terms
of today's usage.  I seriously doubt this and think that a well-rounded
divination system with NO historical accuracy or connection is much
more effective that some half-baked pseudo-intellectual account of
a partially recovered nontradition.

Instead of telling us what *IS* worthwhile because of its historical
accuracy (and this really becomes tediously pedantic), please evaluate
the books based on their approach, clarity, relevance to MODERN life,
and usefulness.  Also note whether YOU have used the system you are
reviewing.  We may discover that my 'elven runes' which my aunt martha
says were invented by the wee folk (that have, according to 'scholars'
NO historical validity) are more useful and powerful than any *approved*
brand.  [Take this as a flame to your elitism, not your person]


Secondly, I thought that the mention of runes as one's own alphabet was
a VERY interesting point.  Has anybody ever done work on the english
alphabet as a runic system?  I've started work using it as a system of
gematria (assigning it 1-10, 20-100, and 200-800 values) and plan to
weave it into my own tarot deck, but have never heard of doing it for
RUNES.  Any ideas how any of this might be accomplished or why it
couldn't?  To me, THIS is what is worthwhile to discuss regarding runes
as a whole, not some elitist evaluative system.

Before you think I've gone off half-cocked (which I might have but am
assuming not) I do think there is some importance to historical 
approaches to subjects, and even understand a review of their
HISTORICITY, but I argue vehemently against the connection of this
historicity with an absolute standard of value.



Invoke me under my stars.   Love is the law, love under will.


I am I!

Fr. Nigris
From: stanley@verga.enet.dec.com
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Deryni magic (was Re: Ritual weapons)
Date: 24 Jul 92 20:59:27 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


In article <1992Jul11.035742.23455@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>, jds2@po.CWRU.Edu (John D. Specht) writes...
> 
>In a previous article, dwatson@da_vinci.uswest.com (Darryl D. Watson) says:
> 
>>In article <geFT1qO00WBNI2o70e@andrew.cmu.edu>, Shawn Clayton Knight <sk4p+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>>
>>What is a 'chaos magician'?
>>
>My offhand guess would be a practitioner who chooses to operate within the
>bounds of chaos, rather than order. The traditional 'mage' used potions, 
>spells, and instriptions which had to be exact (orderly) to work. The Chaos
>mage, on the other hand, would tend more toward using the lack of structure
>inherent in the quantum universe to affect reality. 
>Paul

Actually Chaos has structure too.  A higher order actually... the Strange
Attractors (so to speak).  

---
Mary Stanley		
		(INTERNET,UUCP) stanley@verga.enet.dec.com
		(UUCP)		...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley
		(INTERNET)	stanley%verga.enet@decwrl.dec.com
---
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: Possible to Obtain magic powers>?
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 17:32:39 GMT

erc@unislc.uucp (Ed Carp) writes:
: 
: : religious texts: so If I write a book that's good enough to be around in 2k 
: : years, and it happens to be religious fiction (*quickflame*: Ain't it all?),
: : then would that be an 'ancient religious text' which could be accepted as
: : fact?
: 
: There are many religious texts around the world that can be verified with a
: high degree of accuracy, and which tally well with our own experiences today.
: (The christian bible seems to not be one of those, however).

They can? In what way? Certainly, they may show that such and such city
existed at some time before the text was written. They may even talk about
some of the rulers. So what? This is just history, which may or may not be
recorded accurately - depending on the personal prejudices of the author.

Other than verifying that a place or ruler existed - I don't know how you can
verify the accuracy of any such text.

Bill
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english