From: noraa@cbnewsk.cb.att.com (aaron.l.hoffmeyer)
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
Subject: Re: Flakey ex. husband/dad
Date: 11 Apr 92 01:59:02 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories

In article <1992Apr10.214146.21491@sequent.com> jd@sequent.com (Jim Duckering) pitters:
>
>Hi,
>
>I have a female friend that has been separated from her ex-husband for
>1year and has recently been divorced in the last couple of months.
>His character is one that is easy going, likable on the surface, but
>tends to lie, cheat, ,be unreliable and take responsibility with a
>grain of salt.  I could site several examples, but you would be
>reading a 100 page doc.  Married young my friend had a little girl,

It wouldn't be 100 pages of a one-sided, biased story would it?  Or
would it be factual accounts of what happened as told by disinterested,
third party witnesses?

>now 4years old.  She had realized the mistake and made the smart
>decision to rid herself of this person.  She had offered her ex.  to
>be free of all responsibilities for their daughter, but the father
>wanted to be a part of the daughters life.
>
>Ok, my friend said, but if that's the way its going to be lets be
>responsible and work together to insure a decent future and
>upbringing for our daughter.  Bitter, his idea of cooperating is it's
>none of her business how he handles things while the daughter is
>with him. (PROBLEM 1)

She cannot dictate all the specifics of how he cares for the daughter as
long as it is reasonable.  He cannot dicate all the specifics of how she 
cares for the daughter.  One rule for parents to get along after a
divorce when it comes to how they handle the kids is "She has her rules
and he has his rules."  Both will have rules.  Since he expressed desire to
be involved with and to help make a positive contributions to his daughter,
give him a chance to do that and don't be so quick to elucidate every
mistake he makes.  If this is new to him - being involved with his
daughter - he is bound to make mistakes.  Maybe you could help him out
by advising him to take parenting classes.  They are only about $50.

> How do you ensure that he doesn't leave her in the care of others
> of weak character,(ex. He lived with a fellow for awhile he hardly knew

Weak character as defined by who?  As defined by you?  Everyone has
acquaintences that run a gamut of qualities.  There are many people with
low-levels of education, with marginal jobs, with limited communication
skills that can and do have positive impacts on children's lives.

> and would go out and party while leaving his child with this person) or
> other equally irresponsible decisions.  Also he lets the little girl stay up

Just can't name them, though.  If he went out and partied (your word on
this), that was not such a good thing to do - maybe.  Does the mother
ever leave the child with a baby-sitter and go out and have fun?  If she
doesn't, she might try considering it.  Most level-headed, rational,
reasonable people go out and have fun every once in a while.  It makes
life more fun - it makes people happy and happy people are more likely
to have positive effects on others around them than are bitter, mad,
angry people.

Another way to say what you said is this - "He had his roommate babysit
while he went out and had a good time."  I think he should be
arrested.  NOT!!

> till 1am or whenever, eat garbage food etc.  Not responsible at all.

My psychologist had sole custody of his daughter while he was working
full-time and going to school full-time.  He said, during that time that
it was not unusual to have the child up late - he even told of having a
schedule where they would eat dinner at 4 am.  It was the best he could
do for his daughter.  His wife had abandoned them and had moved in with
her lesbian lover and had nothing to do with them for almost two years.
Maybe on the night that he had the daughter up til 1 am, she had slept
earlier in the day and maybe it was the best he could do for her.

Letting a child eat junk food is not an absolute condemnation in my
book.  My ex2b lets my children eat garbage food all the time - in
fact, they practically live on cookies and vitamins.  They love sweets
and she is not good at coming up with good, nutritious alternative
foods for them.  Such is life.  I don't like giving them garbage food
and I don't like it when she gives it to them all the time, but I know
they want it - and they ask for it all the time - primarily because
when they ask her for it, she gives it to them.  So, every once in a
while, even though I think it is not good for them, I'll give them a
sucker or a cookie.  It is not the end of the world and I'm not really
sure that sprouts would be so much better for them.  Besides, they
wouldn't eat them.  Also, my ex2b is making efforts to correct their
eating habits now that I have pointed out to the court what  she fed
them.  I had witnesses confirm my statements.  Every time I had
visitation with them this winter, it would be early in the morning when
I saw them and she would send breakfast with them - usually Little
Debbie snack cakes.  The person with whom I saw my children confirmed
this to the court.

> Fortunately this person has settled down with a gal, but still uses
> poor judgement.

A "gal" - you mean a Guardian Ad Litem or a woman?  I don't think "gals"
like being called "gals".  You also make it seem that because he was
capable of attracting a superior, mothering nurturer that he might not be
all bad.  But alas, he still uses poor judgement.  Guess what.  We all
are guilty of using poor judgement.  We are human and make mistakes.

>As a result of the divorce my friend took full financial responsibility for
>her child during the separation.  She worked out a more than reasonable
>settlement, $250.00/mth child support, but this person has not made

Well, $250 per month is a lot to someone with no income.

>the slightest effort to help out financially.  Currently doesn't work,
>but managed to buy a newer camaro while my friend struggles to
>meet basic needs.
>PROBLEM 2

If he has money and is providing no financial support for his daughter
then he needs to be condemned.  If he has wages of any form from an
employer or from unemployment, you can have his child support imputed
or garnished.  If that is what he is doing, then the courts will
support you in making him pay his fair share.  According to the
research on this topic, one way of getting him to pay is to allow him
to have a significant relationship with his child.  92% of fathers who
do, pay everything and pay on time.  Only 44% of fathers who are denied
access to their children pay on time and pay in full.

>In Oregon child support and child visitations are completely opposite issues.

Not really.  Some states tie them closely together - making allowances
for the father to not have to pay child support to a mother who refuses
to allow the father to see the children.  But that is a stupid solution.
Two wrongs don't make a right.  I also don't think that they are
opposite issues - more like hand-in-hand issues.  Maximun visitation
goes hand-in-hand with high rates for paying child support - all over
the world.  No visitation goes hand-in-hand with refusal to pay child
support.  Both issues involve the children.  Opposites?  I think not.

>My friend would be happy to share in the upbringing of her daughter, If her
>ex could be responsible about the safety, values role model, and take
>part in helping to provide a college fund or medical assurance or anything,

Assurance or insurance?  They are not the same things.  I doubt that he
is qualified to give assurances about the medical profession.

He won't "take part in anything."  Yet, earlier you state that he wants
to and does take part in his child's life.  These two statements are
inconsistent - some might even say that because they are direct opposites
of one another - that you are lying.

>but he only lies has no commitment or follow through.  These characteristics
>are the only thing he is consistent at.

And then you accuse him of lying.  I just don't know which of you to
believe.  You have demonstrated that you lie, yet you condemn him for
doing the same thing as a heinous activity.  You do it, he does it - but
when he does it, it's bad.

>He does seem to really care for his daughter and shows her a lot of love and
>vice versa, which makes the situation difficult.  My friend

Aha!  He cares about his daughter and shows her a lot of love.  This man
is commendable.  If only more parents truly cared about their children
and showed them a lot of love, the world would be a much better place.

>thought that he would flake out, but he is interested in being a part
>of his daughters life.
>
>MAIN QUESTION
>Since he is unwilling to cooperate how can she rid herself of this person,
>or make him more responsible for his actions..............

You are not talking about what is best for the child.  You are talking
about what is best for the mother - what she desires - she wants to "be
rid of this person".  Well, tough, ****ing luck, chum.  The father is
entitled to have a relationship with his daughter by law.  She can help
to make him more responsible for his actions by giving him positive
encouragement when he does good with the daughter.  Recommend that he
take a parenting class.  Parenting is one of the most important jobs
that any of us will ever have, yet we are given virtually no preparation
for that job.  There is no negative stigma attached to taking a
parenting class. She should take one too.  We all should.  I have and
will continue to do so.

In fact, I can envision how she might make this proposal to him.  She
might write him a letter that states:

	Dear ex-husband,

	I am very concerned about our daughter and about us.  I am
	sure, as you are sure, that we both want nothing but the best
	for her.  My concern is this - we are not prepared to be the
	best parents that we could be.  I want to change this.

	What I propose is this - that we both take parenting classes.
	We can take them at different places and at different times so
	we don't have to confront one another - nor argue in front of
	others over what is best for our daughter and about the
	mistakes that we both have made in the past.

	Besides wanting to insure that our daughter has the best
	parents any little girl can have, I want to do this for another
	reason.  I am concerned about your parenting style which is
	different than mine.  I think such a class would help both of
	us to resolve those differences.

	It is time that we stop the flow of hatred between us that came
	about because of our marriage and subsequent divorce.  It is
	time that we start thinking about how we can be the best
	parents possible and how we can work together to raise a happy,
	wonderful child.  For her sake, I want to call a truce and
	start helping you with her.  For her sake, I want you to start
	helping me with her - and that includes helping me to
	financially support her.  That is not a slam.  She needs your
	financial support.

Now, that, buddy-boy is a real solution.

Not this....

>The best answer we could come up with is for her to leave the state,
>but that has its own set of problems.

This is the worst possible solution that I could possibly come up with
to your problem.  This is frankly terrible.  She would be robbing a
father of the chance to have a great relationship with his daughter,
this would rob the daughter of the opportunity to have a great
relationship with her father.  This is immoral and defies any logic.

>I don't need any cursaders advice, I can site many flakey women as
>well, but would appreciate some ideas on how my friend could best
>handle this situation.  Remember her ex.  is a flake, owes everyone,
>and can not be counted on.  The courts seem to allow this kind of
>behavior unless she can prove abuse or drugs in his presence.  All of
>these take finances to fight which she has none..
>

Bullpuckey.  A "fatherectomy" is not a solution - it is just a
different and serious other problem.  We have to take your word that he
is a flake, that he owes everyone (I personally don't recall him owing
me a dime and I am one of "everyone" - another lie on your part), that
he cannot be counted on.  Bullcrap.  This is just negative hearsay and
defamation of character without giving him an opportunity for
rebuttal.  It is skuttlebutting.

So she has no finances and he has no finances.  But he is a worse person
because of it.  He is unemployed - in a terrible economy, that is not a
rarity.  During the turmoils of a divorce, it is not uncommon for one
parent to lose a job.  It is difficult to keep a job and deal with one
of the most painful experiences that an individual can go through at the
same time.  Your lack of understanding is evident.  Your biases against
this man are evident.  This divorce just recently took place.  You have
not given this father any opportunity to prove himself.  At least, in
this instance, the court is more patient and tolerant of mistakes than
are you.  This divorce is new.  It takes years to get over the pain,
frustration, financial impact and burden of the Great American Tragedy.
Give this guy a chance, start coming up with some positive solutions to
her problems and stop trying to condemn a father for being human.  This
"fathering" role is probably not one that he is very comfortable with or
all that well prepared for - why not help him out?

Children need both parents.  And it can be really great if they have two
good parents.  Why not encourage this man and help this man to become a
good parent?  He has expressed his desire to become that father.  Why
not help him instead of condemning him for eternity after just a few
months?  Many fathers, when given the opportunity to experience the
parenting role, grow into it and become excellent fathers.

>Thanks,
>-jd

You're not unwelcome.

Aaron L. Hoffmeyer
TR@CBNEA.ATT.COM 

P.S.  You wouldn't be 100% sympathetic to this woman's opinion and 100%
against this father for some reason, would you?  You wouldn't be
driving her chariot, making her moan, frobbing her knobs, plowing her
garden, whistling her tune, running down her highway, would you?

As a man who is close to this woman, I expect you to be able to
empathize with this father's situation to some degree, to help
communicate your empathy to her, to help her to solve problems by
helping to get her and her ex to come up with positive solutions.  

If you posted here to get some confirmation from disinterested third
parties that she should move out of state and tear the daughter away
from the child, you won't get it from anyone who posts regularly in
this group.  If she leaves without informing the court of her move,
Oregon could reverse the custody award, making her the NCP and thereby
guilty of child kidnapping - a felony.  She could do jail time.  If she
goes to  the court to get them to approve a move first, they will not
approve it based solely on the fact that she wants to destroy the
relationship that this father has with his daughter.  She would have to
be able to prove that she is making a move that would be so positive to
the child that it would offset the negative impact of reducing the
father's time to see the child.  Any legal officer who would approve 
a move when she would just simply be trying to destroy the relationship
this father has with his daughter to punish him should be removed from 
their position.
Newsgroups: alt.child-support,alt.dads-rights