From: eeb1@quads.uchicago.edu (e elizabeth bartley)
Subject: Re: STEVE wants it both ways:
Reply-To: eeb1@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 03:49:42 GMT

In article <nyikos.720807702@milo.math.scarolina.edu>
nyikos@math.scarolina.edu (Peter Nyikos) writes:

>I'm not sure why "alt.sex" is up there, and "alt.abortion.inequity" is not.
>Since I do not have access to the first newsgroup and have seen relatively
>little of the other, I leave it up to more experienced networkers to alter
>the Newsgroups line, if appropriate.

'S appropriate....

>In <1992Oct29.171012.6474@midway.uchicago.edu>
>eeb1@quads.uchicago.edu (e elizabeth bartley) writes:
>>In article <Bwvzz4.Fwv@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
>>kellmeye@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (kellmeyer steven l) writes:
>>>eeb1@quads.uchicago.edu (e elizabeth bartley) writes:
>>>>In article <Bwr9CF.228@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
>>>>kellmeye@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (kellmeyer steven l) writes:

>>>Anonymous sperm donors arguably "helped create a zygote" as
>>>do the doctors who do the fertilization, but neither are held responsible
>>>when the "zygote turns into a child".  Egg donors arguably "help create a
>>>zygote" but neither they nor the doctors who fertilize and implant the 
>>>egg are held responsible when the "zygote turns into a child".  The fact
>>>is the man is NEVER involved in the creation of a child, and his involvemnt
>>>in the creation of what BECAME a child is that of a supplier of raw material.

>>The fact is that the man created a zygote which became a child.

>When does this happen, according to you, Beth?  Do you consider the
>19th century designation "unborn child" to be obsolete, for instance?

Mm....  I think that in standard usage the word "baby" includes or can
include emrbyoes and fetuses; I'd consider it a stretch to go any
earlier than that.  But in standard usage the word "child" doesn't
include fetuses; I've read exactly two usages that weren't in the
context of an abortion discussion.  Think of it this way: one talks
about a pregnant woman's "baby" but when asked how many "children" she
has you would expect an answer along the lines of "Three plus one on
its way" -- which implies that the z/e/f's not a child yet.

>>Your examples of sperm donation and egg donation are cases where it
>>was understood *before the process began* that the someone else had
>>assumed the father's responsibilities.

>I'm in agreement with Beth here.  And here:

>>I'll support removing the father's responsibility when someone else is
>>willing to take on those responsibilities, regardless of whether they
>>do so before or after those responsibilities exist.

>>>>The woman can kill the z/e/f before she has any responsibility to it.
>>>>The obligations weren't destroyed; they never existed.

>I am agreed in principle, but not in detail.  I say the responsibility
>should exist NLT than when brainwaves are detectable; Beth says they 
>should exist when myelination is well underway.  6 weeks vs. 6 months, 
>and I have a feeling we'll be agreeing to disagree on this for a long time 
>to come.

Do three neurons in a test tube have rights?  You can detect "brainwaves"....

>>>You support legal abortion.  ANYBODY can fool you.  

>Come off it, Steve!

>>What makes pro-lifers equate a difference of opinion with either
>>malice or stupidity?  It seems very common among them....

>Count me out.

Thanks.

>And while we're on the subject, the same statement
>with "pro-choicer" instead of "pro-lifer" is very true on talk.abortion.
>Most recently, I've had this kind of run-in with Dean Kaflowitz, who
>has accused me of stupidity, then backed off when I challenged him,
>and has recently reinstated his accusation.  All without a speck of
>documentation.

Pro-choicers often call pro-lifers stupid.  But I haven't seen as much
of the "all of the other side is stupid; if they were smart they'd
agree with me" mentality among the pro-choicers as among the
pro-lifers.

-- 
Pro-Choice                 Anti-Roe                     - E. Elizabeth Bartley
            Abortions should be safe, legal, early, and rare.

Cthulhu for President -- when you're tired of voting for the lesser of 2 evils.
Newsgroups: talk.abortion,alt.abortion.inequity,soc.women,soc.men