From: leet@ims.com (Lee Thomas)
Subject: Re: Soul
Organization: Integrated Measurement Systems, Inc.
	<LEET.92Sep1130256@dove.ims.com>
	<KENTD.92Sep3150607@zappa.FtCollins.NCR.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 17:50:10 GMT


Is there a "proof by attribution"? :-)  Or, "damning with faint >'s"?

>>>>> On 3 Sep 92 14:06:07 GMT, kentd@FtCollins.NCR.com (Kent Dalton) said:
>>>>> On 1 Sep 92 21:02:56 GMT, leet@ims.com (Lee Thomas) said:
>>>>> On Sun, 30 Aug 92 02:42:56 EDT, Marc.Cormier%nautical@r-node.gts.org (Marc Cormier) said:

Kent> The real issue here, IMO, is not where the soul is located as
Kent> much as what "functionality" it provides. It seems like early
Kent> ideas about the location of the soul to seem degree reflect what
Kent> it was supposed to provide to the person in question.

This is only true in the Western intellectual tradition, when
scientific Rationalism began to take hold.  In the Eastern tradition,
and before Aquinas in the West, the idea of a soul's "location" would
be absurd.  

Kent> The chest: life force (can't do that, that's the heart in combination
Kent> with other organs/processes), The head: decision making, personality,
Kent> morality (nope the brain provides that).

In the Judeo-Christian tradition, the soul is that part of a person
which responds to God.  In the Bible the soul is likened by analogy
and metaphor to many organs (the bones, the heart, the liver, the
stomach, ...), but is "fixed" in none of them.

Marc> Finally if there is no soul, why do we need anything else including...
Marc> .... GOD? Is this line of reasoning faulty, if so please respond.

Lee> If we have no souls, we don't need God.  Since we do have souls, the
Lee> argument is moot.  1 Corinthians 15:35-50 discusses this at length.

Kent> No, *your* argument is moot. You're trying to prove the
Kent> existence of some alleged, critical, yet non-material, property
Kent> of humans (referred to in the biblical passage mentioned above
Kent> as a "spiritual body") by assertion.

There is a critical difference between proof by assertion and proof by
revelation, but I don't believe :-) that my supplying it would change
your mind.  My original intent was to show Marc that his reasoning - as
applied, apparently, to Judeo-Christian belief - was faulty, because
that belief system does not accept the idea that a soul has a
location.  The 1 Corinthians passage distinguishes between the
"natural" (i.e., scientific, material, measurable) and the spiritual.

I admit that my use of "moot" was provocative, but I used it to
provoke just the sort of argument that you then provided:

Kent> I could just as easily respond "Your argument is irrelevant
Kent> since we do not have souls" and it would carry an equal amount
Kent> of proof to the verses you mention in 1 Corinthians which simply
Kent> assert the opposite and provide no verifiable properties of the
Kent> "body" in question.

"Verifiable properties" would be material, natural, and scientific,
would they not?  Are you saying that all entities must have such
properties to exist?  That is philosophic Rationalism, and is a belief
system which cannot be defended via scientific reasoning without
resorting to circular argument.  I cannot provide you with verifiable
properties for the soul, because the soul lies outside of the realm of
scientific verification.

Kent> Statements such as yours above seriously make me wonder if one must
Kent> completely abandon reason in order to embrace the Christian faith.

It is not a prerequisite, although in some cases it certainly helps. :-)
Sadly, this is also true of Rationalism (which is often mis-labelled
"skepticism", as others have pointed out). 

Kent> Hopefully, people who arrive at faith by discarding the one
Kent> primary facility that separates them from the "lower" entities
Kent> they supposedly rule over will be the first against the wall
Kent> when the Messiah returns.  :^P

Do you really believe that we are separated from the "lower" entities
by reason, and reason alone, or was this just sarcasm?
--
Lee Thomas,  leet@ims.com      | "What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and
Integrated Measurement Systems |  the son of man, that thou visitest him?  For
9525 SW Gemini Dr.             |  thou hast made him a little lower than the
Beaverton, Or 97005            |  angels, and hast crowned him with glory and
(503) 626-7117, ext. 1558      |  honour." - Psalm 8:4-5





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