From: josip@src.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Irony continues in our history
Date: 17 Aug 92 18:14:11 GMT
Organization: Systems Research Center, Maryversity of Uniland, College Park

In article <1992Aug17.111331.29428@cco.caltech.edu> simic@pollux.ccsf.caltech.edu (Petar Simic) writes:
> 	Josi Loncaric writes:
>
>  One correction: Belgrade gas chambers were operated by local Serbs...
>
>  I have one thing to say: Serbian Jews experienced the same fate as 
>  Croatian Jews.  In Serbia, there was the Belgrade gas chamber,
>  in Croatia, Jasenovac.  Both were operated by the local authorities,..
>
>	...Josip
><<<
>
>	This, of course is, LIE. I challenge you to provide a quote from
> the credible historic document which would point the blaim for operating
> a gas van, which was brouth in spring of '42 from Berlin to Serbia and used
  ^^^^^^^^^
I've remembered the word "gas chamber" but until I've checked Encyclopedia
Judiaca" did not realize that it was mobile.  The complicity of Nedic's
Serbian quisling government, however, is well documented, even in Serbian
sources.  For example, I'd suggest you to consult the book

"Banjica", Historical Archives of Belgrade, Belgrade, 1967.

This book clearly shows that (1) Germans were not working alone, (2) that
Banjica was primarily staffed by Serbs, (3) that the concentration camp was
funded by Belgrade municipal budget, (4) that the camp chief was Svetozar
Vujkovic, a Serb.  Banjica camp processed over 23,000 people many of whom
were Jews and children.  Many people were shot not by Germans but by
Serbian guards.  The prisoner lists were kept in Serbian, in cyrillic script.

Besides Banjica, Belgrade also had nearby camps Topovske Supe and Jajinci.
Sajmiste was a camp in Zemun, across the river Sava (present day Serbia,
but then a part of the NDH).  A group of Jewish refugees had been 
captured and deported from Sajmiste, then gassed en route from Sajmiste 
to Jajinci.  A Serbian company had a contract to collect their clothing.
Source (besides Encyclopedia Judiaca):

Cristopher R. Browning: "Fateful Months: Essays on the Emergence of the
  Final Solution,", New York, Holmes & Meier, 1985, pp.68-85

> for two months, to anybody but Germans. Here is some quote from Encyclopedia
> of the Holocaust, Israel Gutman: "...the German authorities in Serbia realized
> that they would not be able to deport the Jews as quickly as they had
> tought, and they asked Berlin to provide another solution. In late February
> a gas van arrived in Belgrade, sent from Berlin... This gas van was used
> from March to May of 1942 to kill all the Jews imprisoned in Sajmiste..."

And with generous help of Nedic and his Serbian quislings, Serbia celebrated
reaching "judenfrei" status by publishing anti-Semitic stamps in 1942.

>	This is not to say that quisling puppet government under Milan Nedic
> did nothing wrong. His gendarmerie had to be involved to some degree in
> assisting the Germans in rounding up the Jews. This is clear. Yet, if we
> are discussing in good-faight here, we should not mix the leading order
> history with the small, Nth order effects.
               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>	This is the last I have to say on this question.

Small?  N-th order?  Difference is clearly there, but to say that what
happened in Serbia is "small" or in any sense negligible is completely wrong.

My point in raising this issue is not to compare Serbian and Croatian
role in the Holocaust, but to establish the fact that most Serbs have
never faced this part of their history.  Failure to do so is clearly
demonstrated by your statements.


> [ relevant history quoted ]
>
>	...Responsible for these deeds (killing of Jews) were the leading
> officials of the German administration of Serbia, Harold Turner, Wilhelm
                                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This man had attributed to Serbian help the "success" reported in his
August 1942 report which states that "problem of Jews and gypsies had
been solved; Serbia is the only country where this problem no longer exist."
(See reference I've quoted above, pp. 42-44)

>	Here is, however, the relevant paragraph about who was in charge
> for kilings in Croatia (Enc. Holocaust, pp. 323, 326): 

The responsibility of Croatian Ustashe has been well established and
this is not under debate at all.  You even quote my statement:

>Josip writes:
>Yes, Croatian fascists had concentration camps.  Their victims were, in
>order of importance to Ustashe: (1) Serbs, (2) Croatian Communists, 
>(3) Jews and (4) others.  ...So, Ustashe collected the "undesirable"
>Serbs, Croatian opposition, Jews and Gypsies; and exploited them to 
>death.
>	Josip 
>
><<<
>
>	Hmmm. I see. The phrase "undesirable Serbs" is bit missleading isn't it?
> As if "ethnicity" was not all what mattered.

Huh?  Ustashe considered all of these groups undesirable, and proceeded
to eliminate them.  My quotation marks were intended to remind readers
that this was Ustashe view, not mine: I an appaled by what they did.

>
>	Petar.
>
>	-------------------------------------------------------------------
>PS	I will be away for some time and most probably will not be able to
> 	continue this discussion.
>

I'm tired of this discussion too.  This has nothing to do with culture,
but since Belgrade propaganda continues to bring up WWII atrocities in order
to justify the carnage they are perpetrating today, I just had to remind
you of some parts of history you do not like to remember.  A bit less "epic"
view of Serbian history might have carried a warning of what Serbian
extremists could do: perhaps Serbs would have exercised more care
in dealing with their own fascists, instead of giving them 24% of the
seats in parliament (I'm talking about Vojislav Seselj's Serbian Radical
Party).

Josip