From: adams@spss.com (Steve Adams)
Subject: Re: Using the Bible with non-Christians?
Organization: SPSS Inc.
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 16:17:15 GMT

warren@pws.ma30.bull.com (Warren Lavallee) writes:

>adams@spss.com (Steve Adams - a professing "pro-choice" christian) writes:
>>>and believes:
>>>2Tim 3:16-17
>>>	All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking,
>>>	correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God
>>>	may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
>>Well, this depends on what you mean by 'God-breathed' and what context you
>>take this quote in.  Clearly, the letter to Timothy can only be talking
>>about the OT when referring to Scripture...I don't believe in plenary
>>verbal inspiration, but I do believe the Bible is inspired.  I think it fits.
>
>All the books in the Bible have been commonly accepted by christians as the 
>Scriptures.  Most I know believe that 1Tim 3:16 refers to the entire Bible
>(entire = 66 books of OT and NT.)  I see you don't accept the NT as 
>infallible, and that explains why you can have a pro-choice opinion to me.

When 1Tim was written, the other books of the New Testament DIDN"T EVEN EXIST!
How could it then refer to the entire Bible.  In fact, Paul's letters
hadn't even been collected!  Contrary to what 'most Christians' beleieve,
there is no way this remark could refer to books that weren't written.  The
author of this Pastoral letter (perhaps not even Paul) was clearly
referring to the existing Scripture...the Law, the Prophets, and the
Writings.

The earliest supposed date for a Gospel is around 50AD (Mark), with other 
dates going as late as 70.  The other Gospels were written then in the 60's
or 70's, except for John, which can be dated as late as 100AD or so.  If
you contend that the Pastorals were written by Paul, then the LATEST date
you can assign to them is 65AD.  Paul was imprisoned in 66AD, and martyred
in 67AD.

The NIV study notes agree somewhat with this view...they say that the comment 
reflects primarily on the OT, because some NT books hadn't even been
written.

>>>1 Cor 3:19-20
>>>	For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is
>>>	written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness" ; and again,
>>>	"The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile."
>>What's the point?  I counter this with "Know the truth, and the truth shall
>>set you free," which says to me that I should seek wisdom, so long as I
>>follow God.
>
>Your quoted verse refers to the knowledge of Christ, not of the world. 

James 1:5 "If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives
generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. [NIV]"

Sounds like the search for wisdom is OK to me.  NIV study notes say that
wisdom is fine, so long as it is practically applied and that the insight
gained has spiritual implications.

Christians are not supposed to be un-wise.

>I interpret 1Cor 3:19-20 as:
>The wisdom of God is more authorative than that of the world.  That
>wisdom coming from the Bible.  So if someone scientifically proves
>to you that such and such is so, and the Bible says it isn't, then
>you believe the Bible a presume that there is an error in the proof.
>This is what I call faith.
True, to an extent.  Faith is assurance of things not seen.  But, the Bible
is not a science book.  It is not meant to be a science book.  It is meant
to be a history of mans' relationship with God, of Jesus interactions on
earth, of how one should conduct one's life and of things to come.

>>>Does anyone else other than me feel it is foolish to be talking about 
>>>abortion from a Biblical perspective with non-Christians?
>>More or less.  But the point is that the Bible is brought into the debate.
>>And there are Christians in the debate, on both sides.  I tend to wait for
>>someone else to mention religion or the Bible, and then throw in my two cents.
>
>I think it's futile.  No one will win.  What is the point?  It's a 
>question of faith.  We know we are not wrong, and they know they are not wrong.
>Has anyone in this group been changed from one belief to the other?

You missed what I was saying.  I do not bring up religion and the Bible.  I
answer claims by others.

>>>The Bible is a spiritual book that you can only understand fully when you
>>>have the Holy Spirit.
>>Perhaps...
>
>>>1 Cor 2:13-16
>>I agree with this...but it doesn't say to me that unbelievers will not
>>understand.  Heck, the best Bible Scholar I know is NOT a Christian...and
>>I'm talking theologically, historically and critically speaking.
>
>How do you interpret that from this:
>1Cor 2:14: The man without the Spirit does not accept the things
>           that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness
>           to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are
>           spiritually discerned.
>
>Unbelievers look at the Bible and think it is foolishness.  How can you 
>understand something that is foolishness to you?

Jeez.  Astrology is foolishness but I understand it...

>You can take the Bible on many levels.  Historically, Theologically, etc...
>But how many of the "scholars" ask "How can I implement this in my life?"
>or "How does this apply to the world today."  MOST (not all) of the ones
>I hear about will tell you a long blurb about tradition, and times, and
>language, and them empty the Scriputes of their meaning for today?
I'd say that more than you think.  What you seem to be implying is that people
engaged in Biblical Criticism do not beleive in the Bible.  I disagree.
Although that may be the case in some instances, it is not universally
true.

>Or they change Scriptures around.  One guy was a professing christian
>homosexual.  He said Romans 1 had nothing to do with homosexuality.
>He had gone through decades of Bible training.
[Romans 1:21-25 deleted]

Well, this had to come up, now didn't it.  I won't go into it because I'm
not an expert on Greek, but there are some valid questions as to what
exactly is meant by the text in Romans.  You can go over to
talk.religion.misc and ask...you'll get a nice, long answer about it.

Secondly, every Christian is a sinner (remember what Paul wrote : "all men
have sinned").  Just because your particular sin doesn't seem to you to be
as bad as another man's, doesn't make it so.  "All sins are equal" and "the
wages of sin is death".  

I refer you to Matthew 7:1-6.  If you measure another man as a sinner
because of his sin, you will be measuerd a sinner too.  Remember, remove
the log from your eye first so you may see clearly to remove the speck from
your brother's eye.  "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

I won't be casting any stones.

One more question...if homosexuality is NOT a choice made, then doesn't
that mean God created homosexuals exactly as they are?  [Hint: many scientists/
doctors/researchers feel that this is the case...that it is not a choice]

>>Not being Christians does not imply no values.  Morals and ethics can come
>>from sources other than religion...they might just be different than the
>>ones you like.  I have two sets of morals...one for myself (I stand by
>>Christ's teachings) and then one for society, based on concepts of freedom
>>and personal autonomy.  I won't impose my morals on someone else, and ask
>>in return that they agree to do the same.
>
>Sorry, absolute values, not values.  They have dynamic values.
There are no absolute values in a society.  You have your values, I have
mine.  If we are to live together, we must come to a MUTUALLY AGREEABLE set
of values.  Simply shoving yours down my throat will never, ever work.

>>>With facts.  Facts come right against the lies that the enemy is using. 
>>>Facts can be verified in the world.
>>Facts like what?
>
>(This is an example, I don't have my references here.)
>In a recent scientific study of  a cross section of 1000 women,
>5% of all 1st trimester abortions ended in death for the mother.
>
>Or something like that.  It'd very hard to find any truth now a days
>in the world.  People distort truth to meet their beliefs.  You have 
>to WORK to find out what is really happening.  Sure you can read the
>Bible and know, but when it comes to proving it to unbelievers its
>rough.
That's the rub.  You can never, ever 'prove' the Bible.  One either accepts
it or does not.  The Bible makes some assumptions, the biggest one being
that God exists.

>>>What do christians think?
>>I think we should keep our morals to ourselves and to those who willingly
>>come to follow Christ.  No Christian should impose his moral values on
>>anyone else, and above all should be tolerant of others.  If we want this
>>kind of treatment, we must first give it.
>
>I agree I can not force someone to stop sinning. Consider however
>that some of the ten commandments are laws.  So there is a point.  
>Laws are based on morals.  The majorities morals, whether Christian
>or other, therefore can be legislated.  By legislating morals, we are
>just preserving & protecting them.

No.  That's not it.  Look at the Commandments:

1. I am the LORD your God.  You shall have no other gods before me
LAW: No

2. You shall not make any idols
LAW: No

3. You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God
LAW: No

4. Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. (and don't work)
LAW: No

5. Honor your father and mother
LAW: No

6. You shall not commit murder
LAW: Yes

7. You shall not commit adultery
LAW: No

8. You shall not steal
LAW: Yes

9. You shall not give false testimony (perjury)
LAW: Yes

10. You shall not covet your neighbors house, wife or goods.
LAW: No

So the count is 3 'YES' and 7 'NO'...and look at the 'YES' items:

Murder : illegally deprives another person of life

Theft : illegally deprives another person of property

Perjury : illegally attempts to deprive another person of justice


Each and every one of these is a basic concept that has no requirement for
religious views as its basis.  Note well that the ones that USED to be law
but are no longer are the ones that require religious basis, for example,
no work on Sunday.

>	Matthew 28:18-20
>	Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and
>	on earth has been given to me.  Therefore go and make disciples
>	of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of
>	the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey
>	everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always,
>	to the very end of the age."
>
>
>1st: go and make disciples
>2nd: baptize them
>3rd: teach them to obey
>
>So first God saves them, then they learn to obey, and gradually stop sinning.

But Jesus said also that one should "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's
and unto God what is God's".  Paul reiterates this when he says that
"everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities" because they
are appointed by God.  And you are to do this because of conscience.

If the 'authorities' (in our case, elected representatives of the people in
a represntative democracy/republic)  make a law, you are to submit to it,
UNLESS it forces you personally to violate the commands of God.  The
exception is from Peter's speechs to the Sanhedrin in Acts 4 & 5.

 -Steve
--
  The opinions expressed above are those of the author and not SPSS, Inc.
                         -------------------
   adams@spss.com                                  Phone: (312) 329-3522
   Steve Adams        "Space-age cybernomad"       Fax:   (312) 329-3558
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