HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: pcorless@cisco.com (Peter Corless)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: SEXES (was "something I just wanted to complain about")
Date: 22 Jul 92 03:05:23 GMT
Reply-To: pcorless@cisco.com (Peter Corless)
Organization: Computer Science Lab, SRI International
X-Disclaimer: The views expressed in this message are those of an
	      individual at SRI International, and do not necessarily
	      reflect those of the company.

I am surprised to hear all of the pagans around here missing the origin
of the "DD cup" woman...

What about the Venus de Willandorff (sp?) and all of the other giant-breasted 
Mother Goddess images of the Neolithic? Giant breasts are the symbol of
motherhood and plenty. For men, buff bodies and big penises have been
idolized from the beginning of time. Greeks painted them on their pottery,
Celts raised standing stones to represent them (and dolmens to represent their
feminine counterpart!)

Sexual ideals and stereotypes have been around as long as there have been
SEXES! Even animals try to rut with the best mate, based on plummage, size of
horns, build and quality of mating call... why shouldn't humans?!?

Please... THINK about the origins of these stereotypes! Are they bad? Are
they good? Is is all for the best natural selection, or have we evolved past
such primitive needs...All of this is YOUR interpretation. You can be as
militant or as moderate as you like, but let's put some thought into the
discussion before we add our acid.

..For my own part, I think that having distinctly masculine and feminine
ideals of beauty and sexuality are good*. However, the modern media
interpretations of having china-doll soft women and 4-wheel-drive tough men
are a little extreme, and tend to divide the population along extreme lines.
Personally, I don't necessarily believe that our ideals should or must be at
the 100% extremes. I'd prefer Harrison Ford over Arnold Schwarzenegger, or
Meg Ryan over Kim Basinger.

* I'll leave this whole discussion for another time. It's probably been
  argued more than any other philosophical issue in the world, and I want
  to log out and head home!
  
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Subject: Re: Overthrow "THE MAN" symbolically, was (Who cares)
Organization: FERMILAB
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 19:13:17 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalno.fnal.gov
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <krikket.5333@meltdown.chi.il.us>, krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 
> Now personally, I am not ashamed of being a man.  As Dan said this weekend,
> "I don't feel a need to be identified as an exclusivist feminist."  (chuckle)

The actual quote was "I don't feel a need to be identified as a lesbian
seperatist."

> I do not apologize for being male, nor do I feel that I need to reject my
> being male.  I am happy with who I am.
> 
> I do not apologize for other men.  I am not perfect, I have faults, just like
> everyone else, but I try to work on those faults.  I try to help those people
> who need and want help.  But I will not apologize for what happened to them,
> if I did not do it.  I will be supportive of the person who needs help, and
> do what I can though.
> 
> But I will not "overthrow 'THE MAN'" in myself.  For I am happy being male.

I think that this misses what people are meaning by "THE MAN", Krikket.  The
word choice may well be unfortunate, but it is not meant as a put-down of
maleness.

-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
TEAM STAR Charter Member             | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
From: wmathews@ducvax.auburn.edu
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Loreena McKennit: The Visit, etc.
Date: 22 Jul 92 21:51:51 GMT

Loreena McKennit is a wonderful Canadian folk artist and harpist.
She has four CDs:
Elemental
To Drive The Cold Winter Away
Parallel Dreams
The Visit

I heartily recommend all of them, but only The Visit is available widely.
Her Canadian label is Quinlan Road Records, which you can reach by 
writing:
Box 933, Stratford, Ontario
Canada N5A 7M3.

Aside from "All Souls Night," there is some really good stuff on
"The Visit," not the least of which is her rendition of Tennyson's
"Lady Of Shallot" (the whole thing. It's twelve minutes long and will
take your breath away).

I'm not sure about her belief system, pagan/notpagan, but lots of the
music seems to be pagan-oriented and has a feel that is a gleeful
combination of the primitive and the sophisticated.


wendelin
wmathews@ducvax.auburn.edu
From: idfraser@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca (Ian Fraser)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Hello alt.pagan!!!
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 92 13:36:22 MDT
Organization: Edmonton Remote Systems #2, Edmonton, AB, Canada

brewich!donal@lobster.hou.tx.us (Donal) writes:

> Hello Ailsa, Hello Janis, Hello everyone else I have exchanged e-mail 
> with! The lurking is over!!! We finally found the problem with my 
> newsgroup posting and I am so very glad to announce that the Brewer's 
> Witch BBS in Houston, Texas is glad to now join alt.pagan,already in 
> progress :)
 
Hail! And Welcome!
 
Hawk

Ian Fraser              idfraser@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca
Edmonton Remote Systems:  Celebrating 10 years of service to Northern Alberta
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Subject: Re: stereotypes - and a request
Organization: FERMILAB
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 21:55:05 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalno.fnal.gov
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <krikket.5121@meltdown.chi.il.us>, krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 
'krikket' Krick) writes:

> Let's take a given, namely let's assume that science CAN allow men to carry 
> fetuses in thei woumbs, for an inexpensive fee.  (Yeah, right.)

Actually, it would be in the intestine, as I understand the research.
 
> Should men be required to carry 1/2 of the fetuses?

Of course not.
-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
TEAM STAR Charter Member             | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
From: lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Catholic Druidism?
Date: 27 Jul 92 16:10:18 GMT
Organization: LLNL


	Gordon Storga gave me permission to post his message here on
alt.pagan; I think that you people might find this example of tree
worship run amok amusing. The Watsonville refered to here is probably
Watsonville, CA.


From overload.lbl.gov!dog.ee.lbl.gov!hellgate.utah.edu!cs.utexas.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!uunet!psinntp!coopsol!gordons Thu Jul 23 17:25:48 PDT 1992
Article: 75688 of talk.abortion
Newsgroups: talk.abortion,talk.religion.misc
From: gordons@coopsol.com (Gordon Storga)
Subject: Catholic Druidism in Watsonville
Organization: Stay Awake Software
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 19:26:36 GMT


It appears that once again many Catholics are confused as to what to
worship.  In Watsonville the other day a woman claimed to see the "Virgin
Mary" in the knothole of an old oak tree.  This was great cause for a
migration of Catholics to scamper to the area and begin worshipping the
tree. I say "worshipping the tree" because they have had to put a fence up
around the tree to keep the people from stripping the bark from it in an
effort to take some blessing with them.  Some people were shown on the
news last night dipping their fingers into the tar used to cover the
stripped areas, and spreading it on their faces and their children's
faces.  Makes sense to me -- yeah right.

Of course, there are many claims of the VM talking to the people there and
the usual miracles that accompany this type of hysteria.  The cameras
showed the knothole and it only vaguely resembles one particular
picture of the VM (which the woman produced) in cameo (or outline)
only.  Someone also displayed a photo which supposedly depicts the VM
standing near the tree, but in reality it hardly resembles any human
form at all.

I wonder how much the woman is charging to enter her property?  Will
Suzanne and Chaney be making a pilgrimage now?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
[two Catholic anti-abortion "regulars" in talk.abortion]


Gordon
-- 
The opinions expressed are my own, and not the beliefs or opinions
of whatever company you think I work for.  So there, thhhbbbt!
Message to Kodak:  Freedom for Dan Bredy.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: heimberg@pacific.mitre.org (Jeff Heimberger)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: a reply to radzy's post
Date: 22 Jul 92 17:14:39 GMT
Organization: The MITRE Corporation

In article <2A6CF83C.7556@noiro.acs.uci.edu> cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>radzy it just occurred to me that I responded to your post incorrectly.
>You ask what I was doing to promote men's rights and why I was running
>down Jeff's "cause."
>
>Unfortunately, I replied too quickly and only realized it on the way
>home from dinner in my SO'd car.
>
>Jeff doesn't have a cause, and wasn't promoting one!  All he said was he
>didn't personally oppress women so he didn't se why he should do
>anything about the oppression, he didn't kill Native Americans or
>buffalos, so he tired of being "blamed" for it, he didn't beat up gay
>people so why are they yelling all the time, and he didn't lynch so why
>can't there be a NAAWP.

Janis, you are again misrepresenting what I said.  I go out of my way
not to oppress women, and to prevent it when I see it occurring.  I go
out of my way not to oppress Native Americans, Gays, Lesbians, buffaloes,
and everyone else.  I do not support the formation of a NAAWP.

>He mentioned NOTHING about men's rights or father's rights.

On the contrary, I did tell two instances of where I was oppressed for
being a divorced father.  I also told of one instance where I was
denied access to a company program simply because I'm a man.  Go back
and read the posts, if you want.

>His one and
>only cause for this post and the others he's made is the movement
>entitled I Didn't Do It, alternately It's Not My Mess So Why Should I
>Clean It Up.

Why is it that your brand of activism is the One True Way [tm]?  I do 
what I can, when I can.  If that's not enough for you... 

Regards,

Jeff H...
From: ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Who cares
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 10:07:54 EST
Organization: Ailanthus Project

tmhoff@oogoody.Corp.Sun.COM (Todd Hoff) writes:

> In article 25296@geppetto.encore.com, aaldrich@geppetto.encore.com (Al Aldric
> >tmhoff@oogoody.Corp.Sun.COM (Todd Hoff) writes:
> >
> >I am hearing a lot of defensiveness about the injustice of being one of
> >the priveleged and getting blamed for it..so let me play a little
> >devil's advocate here..
> >
> >:-)
> >
> 
> You bet I'm defensive. Are not blacks defensive about racism? Is it PC
> to blame people for things they didn't do? I thought the sins of the father
> thing went out 2000 years ago.
> 
your analogy is fucked.  black people are not defensive about racism, as 
they do not practice it.  they defend themselves against racism, a 
completely different thing.
> >It's good that you do't/didn't do all of the above, but NOT doing is as
> >good as condoning in practice.
> >
> 
> I reject this out of hand. You are witch burning and don't even realize it.
> 


ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com   or   io81409@maine.maine.edu
 
are you on fire         what will replace the rent with the stars above,
from the years,         replace the need with love,
what will you give      replace the anger with the tide,
for your kid fears?     replace the ones, the ones, the ones that you love?
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: More Crone Images (was re: stereotypes)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 01:58:34 GMT

>Janis Maria Cortese says 

>>"The Crone usually symbolized death; look up Kali."


Hmm, to me Kali is the Dark Goddess, not the Crone.  I have the usual Triple
Goddess:  Maiden (waxing moon), Mother (full moon), and Crone (waning moon); 
however, I also have the Dark Goddess, who is the Dark Moon.  She is the 
Morrigan, Kali, Morgana (my usual name for her, since I tend toward Cymraeg).
She is the one who helps us through struggles, who helps us go into the dark.

Your mileage is very likely to vary. :-)

              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
                               Br'anArthur

Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: cscionti@UMASSD.EDU
Subject: RE:Misogyny (etc.--PHarvey)
Reply-To: cscionti@UMASSD.EDU
Organization: UMASS DARTMOUTH, NO. DARTMOUTH, MA.
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 17:46:56 GMT

It's obvious to me why men are afraid of women; it's 'cause they're scary
(women, that is).
From: pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: stereotypes - and a request
Date: 23 Jul 92 23:11:29 GMT
	<12405@inews.intel.com> <1992Jul22.153618.1@fnalno.fnal.gov>

>> I suspect a lot of this is just
>> that a lot of people want the oppressed to act like Martin Luther King and
>> instead they act like Malcolm X. 

In article <1992Jul22.153618.1@fnalno.fnal.gov> 
holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman) writes:
>You'd be dead wrong if you classified me as one such.  Ask me what I think of
>Ice-T's latest album some time.

Oh, what the heck, I'm hyper than pinochio's nose 'cause I'm a super-Cali
fragilistic tic tac pro. OK what do you have to say? Now I assume you are 
talking about the heavy metal group Body Count and Cop Killer? Probably
destined to become the big election issue and yet another glaring example
of how the arts have ruined our great and noble Pat Boone culture. So whatsup 
with that? [Yo, wake up, you're on point]

an i'm out like perot
From: elton@sybase.com (Elton Wildermuth)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: stereotypes - and a request
Summary: Just one more thing to complain about
Date: 22 Jul 92 18:25:35 GMT
Organization: Paratheo-Anametamystikhood of Eris Esoteric, Edwin Meese Cabal

In article <2A65FEDF.19097@noiro.acs.uci.edu>, Janis continues the complaint:
>
>>>>      "Well, we don't mind _all_ blacks, just the ones we know about."
>If you're this incapable of understanding the distinction between
>oppressor and oppressed, you have my pity. 

Janis, I've said this to you before, both publicly and in email, but
perhaps not bluntly enough; so here I go again:  YOU are the source of
most of the "oppression" that happens to you.

Yes, you were called rude names all through school because of your
appearance.  Yes, some (many?) incredibly boorish men talk down to you
and speak crudely of you because you are female.  But rather than
placing the blame where it belongs -- that is, on those poor, benighted
imbeciles -- and then LEAVING it there, you have internalized their
immature opinions and made them a part of your emotional nature.

Yes, there are jerks in the world, and many jerk wannabees.  Most of
their behavior stems from very simple causes, and those causes are the
same ones that make you incapable of rising above their behavior.  But
unless the jerk du jour is in a position of real physical or emotional
power over you, he (she?) is incapable of harming you without your help.
There's a rather simple method of coping with all of them:  the ones who
try to do you real harm, you kill; the rest you ignore.

Before you go about trying to reform others (in fact, maybe *instead*
of trying to reform others), examine yourself; decide why you have to
believe their opinions of you.  If you don't believe them, why do they
matter to you?  If they don't matter to you, why do they upset you?
You're better than that; you don't have to play those games on yourself.
Just stop; walk away from the game, and play a different one instead:
Janis *knows* that Janis is a superlative person; and anone that thinks
differently simply hasn't seen Janis yet.

An odd thing will happen ... when you begin treating yourself with
the respect you deserve, the world will gradually come to follow your
example.  It starts with your family and friends, and spreads through
your acquaintainces, and finally infects perfect strangers.  This is
Jihad:  first liberate yourself; then liberate your family; and so on,
until at last you liberate the world.

			-- Elton
+++
"Why are you still carrying that woman around?"
From: ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: >suggestion<
Date: 30 Jul 92 05:06:16 GMT
Organization: Ailanthus Project

ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:
> 
> Here is my suggestion to solve a least one layer of this mess:
> 
> "catholic" means universal
> "Catholic" means a member of the Roman Catholic Church
> 
> "witch" means a practitioner of folk-magic
> "Witch" means a member of Wicca or another religion which calls itself
> Witchcraft.
> 
> "pagan" means anyone who is of any of the various pagan religions and
> philosophies
> can "Pagan" mean a person who identifies hir religion or philosophy with
> neopaganism, but who does not identify with any specific pagan religion?
> 
> Would this help the situation?
> 
well, that works for me, anyway.  how about all you other capitol p 
pagans?  sound good?

                                   -ailsa

p.s. repeating the whole suggestion part of the post because i think ti 
is a good idea...


                ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com
 
"If it has tires or testicles, you're going to have trouble with it."
                            _Ohio state Senator Linda Furney
From: Frank.Perricone@f814.n355.z1.therose.pdx.com (Frank Perricone)
Sender: postmaster@therose.pdx.com
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: a neat-looking star I saw recently
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 20:50:00 -0700

In a message dated 20 Jul 92  14:54:15, Ellen Keyne Seebacher wrote:

>>[Janis asks about herbs for menstrual cramps]
>I've heard chewing on a small twig from a willow tree will help.

 EK> Sure, if you want to spend an outrageous amount of time and effort
 EK> obtaining aspirin:  willow bark is the "natural" source of salicylates
 EK> now synthesized as plain, ordinary aspirin tablets.

Well, yes, it makes sense that that would be the source, but I don't see where
the "outrageous amount of time and effort" come in, you just go pick up a twig
from next to a willow tree, make sure there are no unappetizing bugs on it,
stick it in your mouth, and chew.  Of course, if your problem with bottled
aspirin is an allergy or something, this probably won't help, but I thought
Janis was concerned about not "popping aspirin like they were M&Ms" (or
something like that), not an allergy or something.

BTW thanks for the info, I didn't realize that that was why willow bark was
effective (or the other way around, perhaps).
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Someting ailsa brought up (was Re: Who cares) 
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 22 Jul 92 22:10:20 GMT

In article <4gHBoB6w164w@ailanth.UUCP> ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy) writes:

[among other things]

> . . . but there is definite privelege attached to being butch.  
>peopl pay more attention to me when i speak than the do to femmes, and i 
>get taken a lot more seriously, for instance.
> 
>                                       -ailsa
>

This is something I've always wondered about in the context of
homosexual relationships, and please excuse me if I say something stupid
as I have as little experience with it as most straights.

How come a large part of homosexual relationships do the butch/femme
thing?  It seems a shame that this paradigm, with so much potential for
mining new gems from romantic love, has to adhere to the same
dominant/submissive paradigm that has characterized hetero relationships
since this shit all started.  I don't want to offend anyone, but I'm
just curious.  I can understand why it might be difficult to get away
from it -- like I said about group marriage, there're no role models for
anything other then dom/sub relationships -- but many people are totally
happy in butch/femme stuff (I suppose.  Again, I know nearly zip about
the whole thang.). 

Is it just because dom/sub is the only well-known paradigm for romantic
love?  Is it because there might be an inherent structure to romantic
love (I hope this one is wrong, but I have to suggest it at least)?

Just a-wonderin' . . . 

Blessings,
Janis
From: krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Overthrow "THE MAN" symbolically, was (Who cares)
Date: 28 Jul 92 09:11:31 GMT
Organization: The Meltdown - A Team Star BBS

In article <1992Jul28.131317.1@fnalno.fnal.gov>, holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov
(Daniel B. Holzman) writes:
>In article <krikket.5333@meltdown.chi.il.us>, krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 
>>Now personally, I am not ashamed of being a man.  As Dan said this weekend,
>>"I don't feel a need to be identified as an exclusivist feminist."  >>(chuckle)

>The actual quote was "I don't feel a need to be identified as a lesbian
>seperatist."

Sorry for the misquote!  It was off the top of my head...

>>I do not apologize for being male, nor do I feel that I need to reject my
>>being male.  I am happy with who I am.
>> 
>>I do not apologize for other men.  I am not perfect, I have faults, just
>>like everyone else, but I try to work on those faults.  I try to help those >>people who need and want help.  But I will not apologize for what happened
>>to them, if I did not do it.  I will be supportive of the person who needs
>>help, and do what I can though.
>> 
>>But I will not "overthrow 'THE MAN'" in myself.  For I am happy being male.

>I think that this misses what people are meaning by "THE MAN", Krikket.  The
>word choice may well be unfortunate, but it is not meant as a put-down of
>maleness.

If I took the wrong meaning of what was intended, then I apologize to the
origional author.  (Unfortunately, the name doesn't come to me off the
top of my head, and this thread seems to have lost the origional comment...)

Krikket               ! krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us ! USnail:3 Danada Square E.
a.k.a Doug Krick      ! Team Star Charter Member   !        Suite 246
Data ph# 708/665-9732 ! #include<std.disclaimers>  !        Wheaton, Il 60187

 'If you are what you eat, then I'm Dead Meat'  -- Timbuk 3 "Grand 'ol Party"