HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky)
Subject: Re: Israel's peace talks with Syria
Organization: Brown Computer Science Dept.
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 22:09:50 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.224643.21830@usl.edu>, pssres12@ucs.usl.edu (Vignes Gerard M) writes:
|> >The sanctity of all human life is unarguable. This is why we need peace - in
|> >order to ultimately save lives. Of course, as peace built upon straw, where
|> >one side is exploited by the other is no peace, and may infact ultimately lead
|> >to great blood shed. This is to be avoided at all cost.
|> 
|> 	Are such philosophical dribblings truly beneficial
|> 	to this discussion, or are you simply filling in
|> 	empty lines on the terminal?

I must point out that my statement was not a "philosophical dribbling"
(as you have so eloquently managed to label it) but rather an honest
expression of my moral beliefs. I find it hard to accept that anything as
vastly important as a peace agreement can be devoid of an underlying moral
structure. Morality (the philosophy of belief) ought to govern the
political process. Tragically, many societies have decided to make this the
other way around. Your statement would seem merely to be a reflection of
this rather unfortunate situation.

|> 	You seem to see the peace process not a hope for the future
|> 	but rather a convenient, temporary artifice through which
|> 	Israel may profit and prepare for the next crisis.
|> 	I must admit that I am not surprised by your cynicism,
|> 	although I am certainly dissappointed.

I am not a cynic, but rather an optimist. I hope very much that whatever peace
agreement Israel and Syria are able to achieve will be a permanent one. No
one, least of all I, wants an unnecessary war. I can only sincerely hope that
Israel and its Arab neighbors will never have to find themselves in a crisis
situation again. That is the whole point of peace talks in general.

However, a preparedness for a crisis does in no way signal an eagerness for
that crisis to ensue.

|> 	Yes, but as long as each side sees the conflict
|> 	as the other's fault,
|> 	they will likewise see the necessary compromises
|> 	as the other's responsibility.
|> 					Gerard

Do you honestly believe that the current Middle East situation is Israel's
fault?

But you know, I think peace is possible even if both sides think it is the
other's fault. History is impossible to forget. But as generations experience
a peaceful co-existence, perhaps their initial enmnity will indeed begin to
fade away.

Harry.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Elghani flames again (JUSTICE/EQUALITY IN...)
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 20:20:46 GMT

In article <1992Sep14.171858.1216@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:

>Elghani, we don't need this.  Same to you, Adam.  Our system of

You're right.  Sorry to have flamed on this issue.  I'll try to keep
it to the issues in the future, and I've cancelled my followup
article <1992Sep14.163007.489@das.harvard.edu>.

If that doesn't reach Mr. Elghani before disapearing, I'll apologize
for not knowing he had US citizenship, and other allegations I made in
the article Eric was responding to.

Adam

Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all.  How true that is.      
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: politics
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 92 21:14:07 GMT

In article <1992Sep1.141748.12102@discus.technion.ac.il> davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami) writes:

>The Arabs living between teh Jordan and the sea call themselves
>Palestinians not because they have any memories of the PHilistines
>but because that's the name the Roman called the country in order 
>to quench Jewish rebelion 2000 years ago.

The Arabs living beyond the Jordan River, on the East Bank, also 
call themselves Palestinean.  Recently, in the past half-century
or so, they have also been calling themselves Jordanian, mostly 
to support the claim of those Arabs you mention on the West Bank
to another Palestinean State.

>The Arabs have no connection to the philistines more than the Chinese
>or the Finnish has. They just happened to use the Roman name of the 
>country.

The same was true for Jews who called themselves Palestinean before
there was an Israel for them to describe themselves with.  Jews aren't
related to the Philistines, either, but that didn't stop THEM from
using the term "Palestinean" for themselves.  The current usage of 
"Palestinean" is purely strategic and political and is also
historically mis-leading. 


-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com               Pat Paulsen for President
American-Occupied New York                    This year he has a real chance!
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:19825 talk.politics.soviet:7818
From: nyh@banach.WPI.EDU (Nevo Y Hed)
Subject: Re: Live Online Conference re: US Elections
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 04:29:16 GMT



I coudn't help it ...
someine wrote: 

#Date: 7 Sep 92 01:47:03 GMT
       ^^^^^
       ^^^^^
#Organization: Carnegie Mellon Computer Club
#Lines: 19
#
#I'm posting this message for the Conference Hosts;
#
#The IDS World Network will be holding a "live", CB-Simulator chat conference
#on the 1992 election and the candidates.  Topics currently being considered
#include The Economy, Healthcare, Education, Family Values, Abortion, and
#"World Leadership Role".
#
#The first discussion will take place on September 4th from 7PM EST until
                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^



	September 4th ... next year?


						-Nevo
-- 
Nevo Y. Hed ............. nyh@wpi.wpi.edu .....................................
++1-508-754-2491 ........ CS student, Worcester Polytechnic Institute .........
"I like my cigar too, but I take it out of my mouth from time to time" G.Marx .
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman)
Subject: Re: Elghani flames again (JUSTICE/EQUALITY IN...)
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 17:18:58 GMT

In article <1992Sep14.064030.2503040@locus.com> jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes:
>In article <1992Sep13.230113.16106@das.harvard.edu> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
>>
>>In article <1992Sep12.081411.2405344@locus.com> jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes:
>>
>>>Black Jews migrate to Occupied Palestine (Israel) 
>>>targeting equality paradise;  unaware that the government there uses them
>>>to absorb billions of *OUR* AMERICAN MONEY. 
>>
>>Our money, John?  You're lebanese, remember?
>
>You are off.  Yes *OUR* AMERICAN MONEY.  I am a US CITIZEN FYI.  I pay
>tax probably a lot more than you do, and contribute to AMERICA'S unity
>a lot more than you do.

Elghani, we don't need this.  Same to you, Adam.  Our system of
government does not entitle one to a share of government commensurate
with how much tax one pays, but rather commensurate with one thing and
one thing only - the status of an american citizen, with one citizen
having one vote.

>  My interest in AMERICA is not only associated with
>the saftey of israel like some. 

Of course, Elghani and the rest of the net - with the exception perhaps
of scum like Jack Schmidling - know that this charge is both insulting
and totally false.  

I'd take offense, except that I know that Elghani is beyond convincing.
He doesn't have an open mind.  He won't be convinced when confronted by
overwhelming evidence.  We on this net know this from experience.

Rest deleted.  To answer your question, John, I am American, and Jewish.
I do not have Israeli citizenship.  Just American.  But I'm very
insulted by the question, as well as the idiotic connotation you give
it.  Shades of the classic "dual loyalty" charges levelled by
anti-Semites in this country and others.


-- 
"How sad to see/A model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport
A battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -Tim Rice,"Chess"
     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: Fair Swap
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 04:23:50 GMT

bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:

>In article 7@news.cso.uiuc.edu, eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>>
>>Jews have always, for the last 2000 years, been the majority in Jerusalem.
>>To claim Arab sovreingty over Jerusalem is  complete lunacy.  Those who
>>call for an end to Jewish settlement in Jerusalem and elsewhere in Judea and 
>>Samaria are simply racists - they are attempting to deny people housing based
>>on their national identity and religion.  Israel does not prevent Arabs from
>>building in the territories...Who is the racist now?

>That's a really pathetic argument, but the reason I replied is your
>first sentence.  Jews have been a majority in urban Jerusalem since
>about 1870 and were the largest of the groups {Jew,Christian,Moslem}
>for perhaps 100 years before that.  Earlier on, Jews were a minority.
>For most of the past 2000 years, Jews were a SMALL minority of the
>population of Jerusalem.  The immediately surrounding rural areas 
>(now part of the metropolis) were almost exclusively Arab until 
>after 1948. [Source: Bachhi, Population of Israel]

The argument is pathetic - compelling!  Why so?  You are however correct
about when the Jews became a majority in Jerusalem.  However, recent history
is important and that is what we are considering.  The only reason the Arabs were even a majority is because foreign occupiers (like the British or the Turks)
prevented free Jewish immigration.  Just look at the British White Papers, 
especially the White Paper of 1939.  This is essentially what is important.  Thearabs became a majority artificially - only because the Jews were held back.
Even though the arabs were a majority, there was no indication of permanancy.
I may reside in  Illinois, but since I have not shown a tendency toward 
permanancy, I am not considered a resident.  The Moselms never established
any provincial centers, Islamic schools, or any significant institutions in
Palestine.  They were there only by convinience, the convinience being that
massive Jewish immigration provided job oppurtunities in a financially
depressed area.

>>Edward A. Shnekendorf            

>Brendan.

Ed Shnekendorf.
From: rothberg@bimacs.BITNET (Danny Rothenberg)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Fair Swap
Date: 13 Sep 92 17:06:34 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

In article <1992Sep12.053648.23367@mcs.kent.edu> rayes@Snake.mcs.kent.edu (Sandra Rayes) writes:

>Look, any student of statistics can show you ways to turn numbers to
>your favor.  But despite the figures and statistics of ALL the FOREIGN
>elements of Palestine, the Palestinians (ARABS!!) always have, and
>always will be, in Palestine.  And they were there when Herzl's
>followers from Europe landed there.

As Disraeli (I think) once said: "There are lies, damned lies, and
statistics" (or does it not matter as he was just another Jew, not
withstanding that he was a convert to Christianity).

>
>Statistics are a collection of numbers on paper...Palestinians are
>HUMANS who have loved, tilled, and died in the land of Palestine.
>While the partisans are arguing over numbers, Palestinian hearts
>are bleeding for their homeland.
>
>Sandra.
>



--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Danny Rothenberg            |    ^     Ellul is here, so:  (I also forgive
Bitnet:                     | \-/-\-/   "Repent now!        everybody)
rothberg@bimacs             |  X   X     Avoid the Yom Kippur rush!"
Internet:                   | /-\-/-\      -Nero (aka Harry Blacker)
rothberg@imacs.cs.biu.ac.il |    V    Ketivah VeChatimah Tovah-Shanah Tovah
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Tippu Hassans post
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 16:50:05 GMT

In article <1992Sep14.124308.14558@cc.uow.edu.au> u9066624@cc.uow.edu.au (Tippu Hassan) writes:
>u9066624@cc.uow.edu.au (Tippu Hassan) writes:

>it seems to me that the title of my article caused a lot of emotional 
>upheavel in some of the netters.

So why don't you change it?

>as a result i am withdrawing the orignal and reposting cause i still stand
>by the main body of the article.

Try not to include the word Nazi in your post without justifying it.
Try changing the title of your posts to something a little less inlflamitory.
Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all.  How true that is.      
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: pssres12@ucs.usl.edu (Vignes Gerard M)
Subject: Re: Israel's peace talks with Syria
Organization: Univ. of Southwestern La., Lafayette
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 19:22:15 GMT

In article <18ta29INN829@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein) writes:
>Compromise is a two way street.  Syria must compromise as well.  There must
>be a give and take, but not on the Camp David model where Israel did all
>the giving and Egypt did all the taking.

	...they want the whole thing...   *click*
	...they want the whole thing...   *click*
	...they want the whole thing...   *click*

		THIS-IS-A-RE-COR-DING

		      *click*


						I am most certainly not!

						Gerard Vignes

-- 

pssres12@ucs.usl.edu	Gerard Vignes, USL PO Box 42709, Lafayette LA 70504 USA

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Fair Swap
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 92 01:28:39 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.093237.5162@mcs.kent.edu> rayes@Snake.mcs.kent.edu (Sandra Rayes) writes:

>Arabs from the southern Arabian peninsula--roughly today's Yemen--migrated
>to Palestine in the Fourth Millenium BC...that's two thousand years
>*before* Abraham got there.

This is also several thousand years before the term "Arab" or the
language "Arabic" were invented.  How can you claim Arabic migration 
long before there were any Arabs?

Say, what year is it in the Muslim Calendar?  Was there even a Fourth 
Millenium B.C.?  
-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com               Pat Paulsen for President
American-Occupied New York                    This year he has a real chance!
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Subject: Re: Lehi and nazies
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
Organization: Australian National University
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 02:18:15 GMT


In article 1719@ennews.eas.asu.edu, makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:

>In article <1992Sep7.025215.27921@cs.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:
[lots deleted]
># I apologise to any readers who thought that my post implied that I had
># personally spoken to former Lehi members or read the original manuscripts
># of their writings.
>
>	I think this paragraph of yours deos more to describe what kind of
>person you are than anything else I could say.  You are participating
>in a centuries old act of passing along myths which have been used as
>a reason for much suffering.  If you did not here it from something
>directly related to the subjects in question, you have no business
>dealing in it at all.  It is a question of civility, not one of how
>can you best be an amateur historian.  That others may have engaged in
>this act does not in any way condone your actions.

Ask the survivors of Deir Yassin about Lehi's "civility", David, and
don't bother with the tired old Hagana-plot crap.  Fortunately for
you, one can be a good Zionist without believing that the murderous
thugs of Lehi were nice people.  You want me to give them more
benefit of the doubt than you have given to other people here very
often; why should I?  Since the behaviour of Lehi looked and smelled 
racist, I don't see why I shouldn't report the opinion of a qualified
historian that they WERE racist.  

[lots deleted]  

>	Well here is another name to "refresh" your memory.  Try Simon
>Lain".  Both Simon and David Palmer have been prominent in the
>Australian news recently from what I understand, as if you did not
>know.

I don't recall having heard of either of them, but I don't read very
newspaper.  I suspect your source is exaggerating about the "prominent".

>David Makowsky

Brendan.
From: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Fair Swap
Date: 5 Sep 1992 20:44:40 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc5.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, eggertj@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41) says:

>
>>  And, as has
>>   been pointed out many times, the word "the" is missing, intentionally,
>>   from 1.i, meaning that the resolution does *not* automatically apply
>>   to all of the land, but quite possibly, only some of it.  That some
>>   does not need to include Jerusalem.
>
>That interpretation seems incompatible with the preamble.

How about the second half of the sentence, which emphasizes "the need to
work for a just and lasting peace in which every State in the area can live
in security," which is incompatible with your interpretation of the first
half of the sentence?

Or the part wich affirms the right of every state "to live in peace within
secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force?"

Remember, the "Green Line" was just supposed to be a temporary armistice
line, to be replaced by secure and recognized borders when a peace treaty
was signed shortly after the 1948 war.
-- 
bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: ronf@panther3.panther.mot.com (Ron Feigen)
Subject: Israeli-Jordanian Peace Treaty
Organization: Motorola Panther Project, Chandler, AZ
Distribution: WORLD
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 16:00:55 GMT

I have not been able to follow the coverage on the ME peace talks as closely
as I would like.  I read/heard recently that the Israeli-Jordains were at a
"deadlock".  Could someone please post some info on what the Israeli's and
Jordanains are at a deadlock about?  I understand (some of) the Syrian,
Lebanese, and the Palastinean issues, but what are the problem areas with the 
Jordan?  I assume it isn't a land dispute, given that Jordan released it's claim
on the WB several years ago (giving rise to the Infatada, what a co-incedence)
are the disputes mainly security or are they tied to WB/Gaza autonomy?

Any info would be appreciated,

thanks,


-- 

>
Ron Feigen
ronf@panther.mot.com
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: A naive question about the law of return
Date: 11 Sep 92 09:00:50 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <1992Sep10.162657.5262@das.harvard.edu> adam@sparkle.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
=>In article <25703@castle.ed.ac.uk> egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson) writes:
=>>If my ancestors converted to Judaism, does this give me the right to
=>>emigrate to Israel? Is this logical? Why (not)?
=>
=>However, I'll answer the question I think you were asking, which is
=>"Does a convert, or the decendant of one, have rights under the law of
=>return?" 

Right, that's what I meant! ;-)
=>
=>Yes, they do.  The law of return allows people who may or may not be
=>Jews to "return" to Israel in order to prevent them from being
=>persecuted for their "Jewishness."

So, in this sense, Israel is not a "physical" homeland but a place of
refuge, right?



-- 
=======Jeremy Henderson========egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk===============
Q: How many user support people does it take to change a light bulb?
A: We have an exact copy of the light bulb here and it seems to be
   working fine.  Can you tell me what kind of system you have?  
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:19837 talk.politics.soviet:7826 soc.culture.greek:8732 soc.culture.europe:8287 soc.history:8173
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history
Subject: The massacre of Turkish Cypriots in Paphos and Famagusta.
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 15:53:59 GMT

In article <Sep04.160611.23126@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> cc433336@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Constantinos A. Caroutas) writes:

>Turkish municipal rule. After all, in the period after the first elections
>of the Republic of Cyprus and before the British surrendered power, the
>latter had captured a Turkish ship gunrunning to Cyprus. The Turkish
>Cypriots, however, insisted that the mixed areas be under the jurisdiction

Hold on, "Car*", hold on. Article IV of the 1960 Tripartite Treaty 
of Guarantee among Great Britain, Turkiye, and Greece gave Turkiye 
the right to intervene if the 1960 agreement was violated. When 
Greece invaded the island on July 15, 1974, and then tried to annex 
it, the Turkish government acted to establish an area in northern 
Cyprus where Turkish Cypriots could live free of fear.

The August 30, 1974, "Die Zeit" German newspaper report of "the 
Massacre of Turkish Cypriots in Paphos and Famagusta," proves how 
justified the Turks were in undertaking their intervention.

In 1974, on the Island of Cyprus, Turks prevented Rightist Greek 
revolutionaries from toppling the Cypriot Makarios government. This 
involvement brought down the Rightest general's junta on the mainland
and allowed Greece to return to democracy.

For the record, Turkiye did not invade Cyprus. Turkiye fulfilled its 
lawful obligation, as Greece and Britain could also have done, to 
protect the integrity of Cyprus, which had fallen into the hands of 
the military junta then ruling Greece. Ironically, the Turkish action 
benefited Greece immensely by giving the Junta a bloody nose and opening 
the way for democracy to return to Atina.

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)