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Organization: Saint Bonaventure University
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 16:37:43 EST
From:         MSPENCER@SBU.EDU
Subject:      Re: St. Simon Stock

------- Forwarded Message Follows -------

In article <C15y6G.M6A@acsu.buffalo.edu> v201lrxa@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu
(L'Angelo Misterioso) writes:
>
>       Anyone know about St. SImon Stock? I have a scapular with his
>picture on one side, and a picture of Our Lady of Mount Carmel on
>the other side. It's sort of nagged me since I was a kid.

          There is a biography of him in "Butler's Lives of the
     Saints," vol. 2(May 16), pp. 330-2. If your local library does
     not have this publication, they probably can get these pages for
     you via interlibrary loan.
           Michael Spencer, Reference Librarian
           St. Bonaventure University Library
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 14:05:24 -0500
From:         URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM
Subject:      Re: The tragic tale of a moral theologian.

Stephen Barr <15942@BRAHMS.UDEL.EDU> writes:
>      Close, JJ, but no cigar. :-). Steve.
Good thing! I suppose I should confess that the ONLY reason why I am on this
list is because I needed a substitute for the time I used to while away at
smoking. When I quit 14 months ago, the net provided a satifying substitute
for my addictive cravings. One bad habit for another, I suppose:-) -J.J.
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Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 12:36:17 PST
From:         "Greg Wolff, MISG, ICS::, MSO1-1/J50" <wolff@ICS.ENET.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: condemnation of homosexual acts is (un)necessary...

    J.J. (URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM) writes:
>So, Greg, if the "teaching authority of the Church" or the "supreme pastor"
>were to take a stand, it would be that a chaste homosexual should not
>be discriminated against for they are no different than a chaste hetero-
>sexual in God's eyes.

    Each human person in the world is an "image of God."  There is a
    profound personal dignity that goes with that "image."  This human
    dignity that belongs to all persons because they are persons is not to
    be violated.  This is part of the social-justice teachings of the
    Church.

    If a person acts in a way that is contrary to God's law, that action
    may be punished by the state.  What the state is not permitted to do is
    to discriminate in favor of actions that are contrary to God's law.

    A chaste homosexual has taken no action that is contrary to God's law.
    No one would be able to tell if such a person where a chaste homosexual
    or heterosexual.

>Can you perhaps agree that to ban them from the military is to condemn
>them for an action they have not even performed? - J.J.

    No one will know if a person is a {homo|hetero}sexual unless they take
    action and prove it to you.  What the military is banning as "unfit for
    military service" is any person who makes provable homosexual actions.

    No one is being banned for an "action they have not even performed."

                                            In Christ the Savior

                                            Greg Wolff
                                            wolff@ics.enet.dec.com
From: mfulsmb@uts.mcc.ac.uk (Martin Barry)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Easter Date... West Vs. East -- nothing to do with Julian/Gregorian!
Date: 25 Jan 93 15:24:46 GMT
Organization: Manchester Computing Centre, Manchester, England, M13 9PL.

In article <9301222240.AA28815@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu> mib@GNU.AI.MIT.EDU (Michael I Bushnell) writes:
>My question then is, do the Eastern Rite Catholics use the Gregorian
>Calendar or the Julian Calendar?

Usage seems to be varied in churches _in diaspora_. The Russian Catholic
parish in Paris follows the Julian calendar; the one in Brussels follows the
Gregorian. There's no non-diaspora to speak of in this case, but I'm afraid
I don't know what e.g. the Ukrainian Church does in the Ukraine. My guess
would be that they follow the Julian calendar, since in so many other
respects they retain the rites and customs of the parent Orthodox Church.

Martin Barry.
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Date:         Sun, 24 Jan 1993 21:36:46 -0700
From:         "Gordon C. Zaft" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>
Subject:      Re: The Shroud

        You know, even if the Shroud isn't Christ's burial cloth, it
still could be a miraculous image of Him.....

        Just a thought.

GZ

--
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
                 Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.
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From: 15942@brahms.udel.edu (Stephen Barr)
Subject: homosexuality in scripture: a mystery of faith
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 20:51:08 GMT

      Boy, the doctrine of transubstantiation is a toughie!
But our friends have found a much more amazing mystery.
 
      What appear to the senses to be clear Scriptural
condemnations of homosexuality ("perverted lust", "abomination",
"deserve death", "unnatural"), after the words of interpretation
are spoken over the text, are transformed into Divine
approval of homosexuality as a beautiful expression of
love. The accidents of a condemnation remain, but the
substance of an approval is present, hidden from our
senses and, indeed, our intellects under the forms of       
the text. The forms of the words remain, but the meaning
has departed, and the reality of a blessing is truly
present under the form of a curse.
      Some Lutherans have a theory called "consubstantiation"
whereby after the Exigesis (somewhat akin to the Anamnesis)
is pronounced (not without the invocation of the Holy
Spirit, indeed) *both* a condemnation *and* an approval
are contained at once in the sacred text. However, the
latest Bull of Ray Lang has warned against this idea.
      Some theologians have preferred the word "transsignification"
for what happens in this mystery. Others have defended ideas
very like the "consubstantiation" notion, and have said
that the traditional arguments against it are based on
outmoded ideas in Aristotelian logic like "the law of
the excluded middle" and "the principle of noncontradiction".
      As for myself, I prefer to simply bow my head before
this mystery. Verily, who can set limits to the power of God!
      Steve Barr.
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 15:06:10 CST
From:         CCCAMPER@MIZZOU1.BITNET
Subject:      RE: The Real Presence
              21 Jan 1993 12:13:59 PST from <wolff@ICS.ENET.DEC.COM>

On Thu, 21 Jan 1993 12:13:59 PST Greg Wolff, MISG, ICS::, MSO1-1/J50 said:
>    J.J replies:
>|> "Greg Wolff writes in reply to what I wrote:
>|>>my belief that transubstantiation cannot be deemed "infallible"
>|>    The Council of Trent dogmatically defined, in an infallible statement,
>|>    that "transubstantiation" is the correct and necessary understanding of
>|>    the Real Presence.  "... let him be anathema who denies this ..."
>

>    However, the question that is the implicit foundation for our argument
>    is an eternally, deadly, serious one.  It was even asked of Jesus
>    Christ by Pilate on that Good Friday of the Atonement:
>
>                    "What is Truth?"
>
How about some of the miracles God has allowed to help build the
faith of those in doubt of transubstantiation? In learning about
the Eucharist (Catholic) I read a book on Eucharistic miracles.
(which I don't own and the owner is now in ND) It was written by
Bob and Penny Lord (I believe). This book included some of the cases
where a doubting priest had the experience of the bread and wine
literally turning into flesh and blood in their hands. Does anyone
have the information on some of these examples?
  The most notable was a case where not only did the bread and wine
turn to flesh and blood, but it remains incorrupt to this day and has
been examined by contemporary scientists. Their conclusion was that
the blood type matched with both samples, and the tissue was truly
that of a human heart. Add to this the fact that it remains miraculously
incorrupt after ? (hundreds of, I think) years and it seems a rather
remarkable witness that God can do whatever He chooses, whether our
feeble minds can master the concept or not.
  I know nothing of how the Church views or evaluates such things, just
found it very interesting.

In Christ,
Elizabeth

"Mercy is the Flower of Love"- Sr. Faustina-'Divine Mercy in My Soul'
From: bobv@spike.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Bob von Buelow)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Edward Schileebeecx (sp?) writings & Justification by Faith...
Date: 28 Jan 1993 19:35:37 GMT
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In article <9301281739.AA110036@oldgwenbnc> jww@EVOLVING.COM writes:
>Steve Creps writes:
>> In article <6589@mccuts.uts.mcc.ac.uk> mfulsmb@uts.mcc.ac.uk (Martin Barry)
>> writes:
>> >>    One book that I would suggest is Cardinal Ratzinger's....
>> >
>> >Yes, thank you, no further questions.
>>
>>    My, aren't we _ad hominem_ today.
>
>I always figure if somebody uses an _argumentum_ad_hominem_, you just
>can't trust anything else he says, either.
>
>-- Fr. John Woolley

This is getting pretty close to a 'cascade' as best I can tell.

It brought a grin to my face anyway.  Good one, Fr. John!


--
Bob von Buelow             Mars Observer Planning and Sequencing Element
bobv@spike.jpl.nasa.gov          - standard disclaimers apply -
From: rrrodrig@psc.lsa.umich.edu (Ricardo R. Rodriquiz)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: pius xii on evolution
Date: 27 Jan 1993 21:22:14 GMT
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Stephen Barr (15942@brahms.udel.edu) wrote:
:      In case anyone is interested, this is what Pius XII
: said about evolution in *Humani Generis*:

:      [text deleted]
:      ...  
:         When, however, there is question of another conjectural
:      opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church
:      by no means enjoy such liberty....
:      Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion [polygenism]
:      can be reconciled with [the dogma of original sin].

Not having a proper dictionary of theological or philosophical terms,
would someone out there be kind enough to define polygenism.  Many
thanks.
     Ricardo Rodriguiz
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Date:         Thu, 28 Jan 1993 13:14:12 -0500
From:         URSIC@BEAST.CS.HH.AB.COM
Subject:      Re: PREGNANCY

Marty Helgesen <MNHCC%CUNYVM.BITNET@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU> writes:
>Incidentally, you seem to have discovered a hitherto unknown definition
>of the word "devout."
Marty, I agree with you here:-)
...but wasn't there something posted about some program called "Racheal"
last year, for Catholic women who had had abortions? Perhaps someone
could pull it from their archives and send it to this person.
I still think the post was rather suspicious, but perhaps this might
be a better way of handling this type of post (As it probably
won't be the last), unless some of you just need a way to vent of some
anger:-) - J.J.
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Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 15:43:11 EST
From:         "Donald J. Magee" <djm@TRENT.ATT.COM>
Subject: Re: Celibacy oath
              Carpenter" at Jan 27, 93 1:45 pm

>
> >    The Roman Catholic priests (I assume Latin Rite) who left
> >'Rome', did they then get married in the Anglican/Episcopal Church?
> >Just wondering, as they did take a vow of celibacy.
>
>  I can't speak for all priests; I imagine some get married, and some
> don't.  My own priest became an Episcopalian long before he decided to
> marry.  The Pope released him from his vow of celibacy.  Whether the
> Pope always does this, I don't know.
>
> Cindy Smith
> cms@dragon.com
>

That leads to a futher question:  If the Pope released him from his
vow of celibacy, that involves his laicization. (sp?)

Forgetting for the moment he has left the church and fallen into
schism:

Can. 292 -  A cleric who loses the clerical state in accord with the
norm of law also loses with it the rights which pertain to the
clerical state. ... he is prohibited from exercising the power of
orders with due regard for Can. 976 [special case if someone is in
danger of death and needs absolution]; and by the very fact he is
deprived of all offices, functions and any delegated power.

It seems strange that someone who would appeal to Rome to be laicized,
would then violate the law and exercise his orders as a schismatic.

Though I can understand the desire to exercise his orders.

Side note:  I didn't realize that Episcopal priests could marry after
they received Holy Orders.  I assumed they followed the tradition of
the East, allowing married men to be ordained priests, but not
allowing ordained priests to marry.  You learn something every day. :)

Don Magee
trent!djm@jolt.att.com
From: mfulsmb@uts.mcc.ac.uk (Martin Barry)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Language, Meaning, Truth (Was: Homosexual acts)
Date: 26 Jan 93 14:59:22 GMT
Organization: Manchester Computing Centre, Manchester, England, M13 9PL.

Warning: rude words coming up. Sensitive types leave now.

In article <1993Jan22.025811.27169@news.nd.edu> jocallag@artin.helios.nd.edu (john ocallaghan) writes:
>penises... penis... rectum ... ejaculates... men still have
>penises. (I do anyway... rectums... penises, rectums, and death.

I hope that's an objective and through-going summary, anyway.

>To suggest that I deny the facts of linguistic, and cultural change, upon the
>simple point I have made is to put words in my mouth.  

Wait a minute. I said nothing about homosexuality, in fact I didn't even
intend my remarks as relevant to that discussion. I addressed what looked
plain to me. Someone (Jim, I think) made a point about cultural and
linguistic change, and I read your reply:

>>>Here are a couple of words of the past, that if your statement is true,
>>>no lnger suffice:  I am the way, the truth, and the life; he who believes
>>>in me shall never die.

So you said: if cultural and linguistic change bring about the need for
constant re-evaluation of the way the truths of faith are articulated and
understood (which I think is a fair representation of Jim's point) it
follows that "I am the way, the truth and the life: he who believes in me
shall never die" no longer holds true. My reply had no further intention
than to expose your retort for the fatuous nonsense that it was.

>I would like to say
>I'm surprised and shocked Martin that you would do this;  instead I am merely
>amused.

"Merely" amused? I regard keeping you happy as the pinnacle of my life's
endeavours. 

Fire away. :-)

Martin Barry.
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Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 09:17:39 CST
From:         JMILLER@PRIME.MHSL.UAB.EDU
Subject: Re: priests switching churches

I disagree . . .  we have a wonderful Catholic priest here in Birmingham who was
 formerly an Episcopalian priest.

adlin-Miller
jmiller@prime.mhsl.uab.edu
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Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 15:46:32 -0500
From:         "Stephen A. Creps" <creps@SILVER.UCS.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject:      Joke

   There's going to be a new TV drama called "Crimefighter Priest,"
about a Catholic priest who goes from town to town solving crimes.
The trouble is, he can never get a conviction, because all his
suspects confess.

-       -       -       -       -       -       -       -       -       -
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
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From: 15942@brahms.udel.edu (Stephen Barr)
Subject: pius xii on evolution
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 21:14:45 GMT

     In case anyone is interested, this is what Pius XII
said about evolution in *Humani Generis*:

     For these reasons the Teaching Authority of the Church
     does not forbid that, in conformity with the present
     state of the human sciences and sacred theology,
     research and discussions, on the part of men experienced
     in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine
     of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin
     of the human body as coming from pre-existing and
     living matter --- for the Catholic faith obliges us
     to hold that souls are immediately created by God.
     However this must be done in such a way that both
     opinions, that is, those favorable and those unfavorable
     to evolution, be weighed and judged with the necessary
     seriousness, moderation and measure, and provided all
     are prepared to submit to the judgement of the Church.
     ...  
        When, however, there is question of another conjectural
     opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church
     by no means enjoy such liberty....
     Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion [polygenism]
     can be reconciled with [the dogma of original sin].


From this we can see that the Pope regards evolution *of the 
human body, not of the soul or spirit* as being possibly
reconcilable with Catholic dogma, whereas polygenism he
regards as irreconcilable. He was (in 1950) not prepared to
say that evolution contradicted anything taught by the 
Catholic faith. He urged moderation and caution. 
He decried the fact that some regarded evolution as "already
completely certain and proved by the facts which have been 
discovered up to now". But, on the other hand he did not say that
Scripture proved that evolution was *false*! In other words
it was an open theological question in 1950. In 1992 it is still
open. Conceivably at some time in the future the Church could
declare evolution to be false. But to date she has not done so.
And it seems unlikely she ever will.
    So, Thomas Zerucha, the view that evolution is false
is an "opinion" as Pope Pius XII called it. In believing the
evidence to strongly favor evolution (not "completely certain
and proved" but having a high degree of probability) we are
exercising a liberty that the Pope said we legitimately have.
   Steve.
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Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 02:14:26 -0500
From:         Giulio Silano <gsilano@EPAS.UTORONTO.CA>
Subject:      Re: St. Simon Stock
              at Jan 20, 93 5:36 pm

 The question was recently raised on the list:
>         Anyone know about St. SImon Stock? I have a scapular with his
> picture on one side, and a picture of Our Lady of Mount Carmel on
> the other side. It's sort of nagged me since I was a kid.
>
> mike
>
St. Simon was Master General of the Carmelite Order in the middle of
the thirteenth-century.  He is credited with having received a vision
of Our Lady of Mount Carmel in which the promise was made that anyone
wearing the Carmelite scapular would be preserved from eternal
damnation and would be admitted to Heaven by the first Saturday
following the person's death.
Hope this satisfies.

Giulio Silano
St. Michael's College
University of Toronto
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 11:41:42 PST
From:         "Greg Wolff, MISG, ICS::,
              MSO1-1/J50 21-Jan-1993 1409" <wolff@ICS.ENET.DEC.COM>
Subject:      RE: The Real Presence

    J.J writes:
>my belief that transubstantiation cannot be deemed "infallible"

    The Council of Trent dogmatically defined, in an infallible statement,
    that "transubstantiation" is the correct and necessary understanding of
    the Real Presence.  "... let him be anathema who denies this ..."

                                            In Christ the Savior

                                            Greg Wolff
                                            wolff@ics.enet.dec.com
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From: bdboyle@erenj.com (Bryan D. Boyle)
Subject: Re: directions
Organization: Exxon Research and Engineering Co., NJ
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 19:21:00 GMT

In article <930126131630.6160@C-H.BWH.HARVARD.EDU> RASCH@C-H.BWH.HARVARD.EDU writes:
>As the dragons flew away, N.O. Monaghan" <monaghan@DCS.GLA.AC.UK>
>was heard to whisper
>
>> I wonder if anyone else has noticed that it is perhaps those churches
>> and seminaries which are doing least to adapt to the modern world (by
>> that I mean, doing least to change fundamental beliefs, principles,
>> social outlooks and so on) which are the most flourishing.
>
>On the other hand, one could also argue that giving people a chance to
>engage in denial about the real world by isolating themselves from any-
>thing that engages them with the complexity and discomfort and ambiguity
>that's out there in the modern world indeed may well be popular.  So are
>pain-killing drugs.  People may well feel better by being sealed off from
>conflict, but I don't think it ultimately does them, or the world, any
>good.
>
Or, perhaps, the world has itself turned so far away from God that to
stay in it any longer would mean the loss of your immortal soul.  I
don't see anything particularly enlightening about the actions of our
various governments, public figures of any party, or public institutions
that are an inducement to not enter the religious life or spend time
in intense contemplation of the Almighty.  One holy cleric does more
good for mankind than all the governments, bureaus, or public figures 
you can mention.

IMHO.


-- 
\   Bryan D. Boyle            \           _         ______ |
 \  Senior Engineer            \        /   \___-=0`/|0`/__|
  \ Exxon Research & Engineering\_______   N7068W  / | /    )
  / 908 730-3338                /        `/-==__ _/__|/__=-|
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From: lang@cs.tulane.edu (Raymond Lang)
Subject: Re: condemnation of homosexual acts is (un)necessary...
Nntp-Posting-Host-[nntpd-8066]: hercules
Organization: Computer Science Dept., Tulane Univ., New Orleans, LA
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 22:07:32 GMT


In article <C1Iz07.A9t@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, creps@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps) writes:
> In article <C1I2BF.FyC@NCoast.ORG> aiden@NCoast.ORG (Steven Otlowski) writes:
> >I fail to see the damage done by any relationship founded in love
> >and mutual respect.
> >
> >Perhaps you should invest more than (a moment only :-) )  and search 
> >that inner part of yourself where the Spirit speaks to the hearts of
> >mankind.  
> 
>    This poster seems to be saying that homosexual acts are not sinful,
> and that the Holy Spirit leads him and others to this belief.
> 
>    It's dangerous to attribute to the Holy Spirit that sinful acts are
> in fact not sinful.  Especially when one is claiming that one knows
> better than the Church which Jesus promised would have the Holy Spirit
> to protect her from error.  If you are wrong it could very well be
> blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Well, Steve, apparently you've identified "the Church" with
"the Vatican."  Jesus promised his Holy Spirit to the whole church,
not just the Pope and his inner circle in Rome.  The Catholic
magisterium is comprised of the entire college of bishops, and they
(to say nothing of the Church at large) can hardly be said to be
of one mind on this matter.

Ray Lang
lang@cs.tulane.edu
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