HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cctimar@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu (Charles)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Transvestites and Crown
Date: 14 Sep 92 02:53:18 GMT
Organization: Vanderbilt University student of numerology

To all upon the Rialto doth Charles the clerk send his greetings!

Dave Aronson writeth:
> IMHO, one reasonable compromise would be to use persona gender, not physical
> gender, but unfortunately, Corpora is worded physically.  Lobbing arrows at it
> from the sidelines won't do nearly as much to change it as joining and working
> from within.

Corpora may stipulate biologically male and female royals, but, in
practice, I have never heard of any attempts at verification.  The
effect of this on transvestites is this:

A convincing male (respectively, female) transvestite may take the
throne as Queen (resp. King) despite Corpora's statement to the
contrary.  What is necessary is that only a very few of their closest
friends know that the persona's sex is not the same as the mundane
biological sex.

I think that Corpora ought to allow this specifically, but stating
this explicitly might lead to debates over what is "convincing."  I
think that a blatantly unconvincing transvestite sitting on the
throne would irritate me tremendously, whatever the sex of the other
royal.

Of course, the effect of this is that a gay couple including a trans-
vestite could rule, while a heterosexual couple including one could
not.

It would be interesting to see a retroactive announcement that this had
already happened, and see what the BoD's reaction would be, but it
might not be a positive reaction.

Incidentally, for the purpose of specifying dates, it would be very nice
if there were a rule that the same two royals could not reign together
more than once.  Then we could say, "in the reign of Jane and John,"
without ambiguity.  (This would also further complicate the issue of
who is discriminated against.)
-- 
    -- Charles, student, in Glaedenfeld, Meridies
From: carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Alexander of Kiev (mka Carl Alexander))
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Great diesel beasts at Pennsic
Date: 6 Sep 92 02:42:38 GMT
Organization: The Rialto

In article <715719654.F00002@blkcat.UUCP> Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson) writes:
>Many good gentles have written on the planting of trees alongside the road in
>order to block the mundanes' view of Pennsic.  The Coopers have a sign, within
>their bounds, next to the road.  Were we to plant trees, we may block the view
>of the sign, thus losing the Coopers some advertising.  There is also the fact
>that we would be blocking the view to /their/ land in the first place.  Even if
>the State does not mind our planting along the road, it behooveth us to obtain
>the say-so of the Coopers aforehand.

I took all of this to be so obvious as to go without saying, but this
post makes it clear that I was wrong.  If the Coopers don't like the 
idea, then that would, of course, be the end of it.  It seems equally 
obvious to me that the appropriate channel through which to approach 
the Coopers would be the autocrat or the Pennsic planning commission.
And I can see no point in approaching those people without first 
determining whether the idea is viable:  discussing it on the Rialto, 
in order to find out whether anyone other than myself would be 
interested in working on such a project, seemed to me an obvious first 
step in the process of determining such viability.  It also seems to me 
a fundamental courtesy to not bother either the Coopers or the autocrat 
with a pie-in-the-sky idea, but rather to hold off until there might be 
something concrete to discuss.
 
I could call the Coopers right now and find out whether they have 
any objections. If they did, this would save me some wasted time 
and effort; if they did not, and the idea later turned out to be 
untenable for any of the dozen reasons I can think of off the top 
of my head, then I would have wasted *their* time.  I would rather 
risk wasting my own time.
 
Alexander of Kiev                       Carolingia, East

Carl Alexander                          Harvard Square, Cambridge, Mass.
carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu
From: halls@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Scott Hall)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Paying the autocrat
Date: 10 Sep 92 16:56:59 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network

Paying the pennsic autocrat is an interesting idea, but I don't know how
effective it would be.  The same people would most likely apply for the
job, the only thing paying the would do is give people a right to complain.
It is very hard to bitch a voleenteers, but if we pay the autocrat it
would become easy to make them the scapegoat.  
my $.02

Jafar
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: sussman@socrates.umd.edu (Jeff Sussman)
Subject: Re: Town Battle at the War
Organization: University of Maryland University College
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 17:10:20 GMT

Greetings!

Angharad wrote:

>Aryk and Richard have been debating armoring marshals.  I'm not a fighter, 
>so I'm kind of talking through my hat, but I would have guessed that the 
>main problem with armoring marshals was neither screwing up identification 
>nor keeping them to busy blocking stray blows, but reducing their field of 
>vision.  They're out there to see and act on potentially dangerous stuff, 
>yes?  I'd think that peripheral vision would be important?  Marshals?

We've sort of assumed it as implicit that marshals have to be able to see a
lot more than a fighter does.  I believe that Aryk and I agree that under 
normal circumstances avoidance (through identification and good vision etc.)
are sufficient.  But, in situations where the marshals are in continuing peril
of being clobbered, they should be completely armored.

I believe that any scenario that puts marshals in continuing clost contact with
the combatants is seriously flawed and needs to be modified.

The simplist way to modify the Town Battle would be to put up 4x4 posts for the
corners and doorways of the huts and to connect them with 2x4s.  If we could
put plywood over this framing it would make it all "feel" much more like a
town battle.  But the plywood isn't necessary to make the scenario safe for the
marshals.

Richard					Jeff Sussman
Storvik					Silver Spring
Atlantia				Maryland
From: tip@lead.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Arrow number Two ...
Date: 15 Sep 92 07:01:35 GMT
Distribution: world, usa, na
Organization: University of Arizona UNIX Users Group

In article <1992Sep14.165946.22646@pbhya.PacBell.COM> whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt) writes:
>
>A small point . . .  I think you will find, on examining the
>historical record, that 'pagans' were not suppressed by Crusades, but
>were persecuted by other means.  The claim that crusades were used
>would, I'm afraid, raise the pagans in Europe to a capability they
>didn't possess.

My Lord,

	If I may be so bold as to disagree with you.  I have
in my hands a small book by a Goodly Scholiard named Eric Christiansen,
who is a Fellow of New College, Oxford.  The book hight "The Northern
Crusades", and is published by the goodly house of MacMillian. 

	At the beginning of the Christian era the northern lands of
Wendolandia, Pomerania, Lithuania, Estonia, etc.,  were murky marshy
lands of nearly impenetrable difficulty.  In this lands pagan beliefs
flourished as late as 1525.   During the  years of our Lord 1147 till
1525, several crusades against European pagans were undetaken.  On
the date of 13 April, 1147, Pope Eugenius issued the Bull 'Divina
Dispensatione' which authorised Christian Knights to make war against the
Wends under the Leadership and Spiritual Authority of the Bishop Anselm
of Havelburg.   The priviledges, merits, and insignia of these crusaders
were to be the same as those crusading unto Jeruselem.

	In the year 1198, Pope Innocent III issued a bull declaring 
spiritual and temporal crusade against the Livonians.  In 1217 Honorius
III authorised a crusade against the Pruss,  which lasted  intermittantly
until 1525.   During this time the various Pagan cultures, the Pruss,
Livonians, Lithuanians, etc...  were able to repulse or retake thier lands
from the crusaders.  

	This book hath provided me with goodly hours of reading, and I would
fain recommend it unto any who do wish to learn about the last
Pagan governments and kingdoms in Europe.   And in that hope, 

I remain
  Thy Humble Servant

Thomas Ignatius Perigrinus
From: Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Late Night Noises (was Pennsic Land Allotment)
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1992 21:44:56 -0500

corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra) writeth:

 CM> Apparently the [bardic] circle [at Peacemakers'] didn't disturb
 CM> anyone in nearby camps.

It was fairly quiet, at least during the time I was there (about 3/4 of a trip
around the fire) - to the point where incoming people talking amongst themselves
had to be shushed so the audience could hear the bards.  Far as I can tell,
probably MUCH nicer to camp next to than the dang 3 AM doumbeks!

 CM> There was one very bad incident with drumming at 3:00 a.m.
 CM> It seems that Saide's encouraged some drummer to play
 CM> in order to "drum up" some late night business.

ARRGGGHHHH!!!!!  Sheesh!  A "regular" like that should know better....

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra)
Subject: Re: Courtesy (was Re: awards recognition)
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 22:54:41 GMT

I write and Arval replies;

[stuff deleted]

>> I have heard of Courts of Chivalry, and banishments and the like, and have
>> seen them as only a cursory handslapping during the period of someone's
>> reign, or more accuratly, six months. After that period the person's rights
>> are fully restored. I have never heard of an instance where someone's awards
>> were taken away from them, and certainly not permanently.
>
>The second passage surprised me: I think the point that you were trying to
>make is excellently elucidated in the first passage: It is courtesy and
>respect for each other that makes the Society work, not rules and
>punishments.  Courts of Chivalry can never work as instruments of
>punishment, because they can't mete out any significant punishment.
>Stripping someone of his awards, or banishing him for a few months is only
>going to make him angrier and more eager to revenge himself.  It gives
>everyone else the opportunity to embroider the truth, pass rumors around,
>and pile one exaggeration atop another, without being able to check against
>the reality of the gentle's real behavior.  Short of throwing someone out
>of the Society altogether, official sanctions are useless.  

I have had a similar discussion in email with Aryk, and I will ask here
what I asked him. If Courts of Chivalry are useless (and you get no argument
from me on that) what can we as SCAdians do to promote a greater sense of
the need for courtesy? The Rialto is a good start, but has a limited audience.
We have to be able to reach the entire SCA and impress these ideals on the
whole Society. I mentioned to Aryk that we could try awarding some small
trinket on the local level, encompassing all groups, not simply Baronial
and above, and conversely some form of chastisement. Perhaps kitchen details
at events or something. I'm adding to what I told Aryk as the ideas come to 
me. Anyway, Arval is right, and we seem to agree that Courts of Chivalry on
the whole don't seem to work. I have received two emails to the contrary,
but I must believe that this is not the norm. In one case there is a ritual
banishment of a knight that takes place in one kingdom during every coronation,
but that person is still a knight (having been reknighted elsewhere) and 
still active in the SCA. I don't know if that person still acts the same way
that caused him to be unknighted in the first place and subsequently banished
in perpetuity.

Comments are most welcome.

In service,

Corun


-- 
===========================================================================
    Corun MacAnndra     |      But what if this hadn't been
  Dark Horde by birth   |        a rhetorical question?
    Moritu by choice    |                            C. Nelson
From: Joe.Bethancourt@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Joe Bethancourt)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: History vs. dreams
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1992 23:25:02

 -=> Thomas Wrentmore Barnes said to All on 09-07-92  17:51 <=- 

 TWB> If you are in a really medieval setting and someone came up to you and
 TWB> insisted loudly on being recognized as an elf you have several
 TWB> options: 

 TWB> d) assume that he's a real faerie. Depending on when and where your
 TWB> persona lived and how much education they had, appropriate reactions
 TWB> could range from worship, to healthy fear, to cold iron and a prayer
 TWB> against minions of Satan.

Or say "Hello," and proceed to discuss Faerie with them.....rapidly drawing
them out of their depth. This is what -I- would do, at least. Or fall to the
ground amidst gales (Gaels?) of laughter.

We had a short infestation of vampire teeth here for a while. Nobody much
noticed, other than to Point And Laugh, and it went away.

 >Cariadoc can put a yellow cord around his encampment, and ask people to 
 >behave a certain way when they come to visit, but he can do nothing about 
 >the folks less than 50 feet away who sing "Kill the Wabbit" at the top of 
 >their (drunken) voices through his bardic circles (actual example from 
 >Pennsic XX).

We could shoot them........anthills come to mind also.....

                                                        -Ioseph of Locksley
                                                         Grump

... We are such stuff as Dreams are made of ............
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: rancke@diku.dk (Hans Rancke-Madsen)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: History vs. dreams
Date: 9 Sep 92 18:02:20 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen

bq434@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michael A. Chance) writes:


>In a previous article, rancke@diku.dk (Hans Rancke-Madsen) says:

>>...then I think you should remember that the dreamers were there first.

>Now, I could be wrong (I've only been in the SCA about 11 years), but...

>The stories I've heard from a few folks who were there in the early
>years (First Tourney, and all that), like Siegfried von Hochlichkeit
>(sp?), Diana Listmaker, Frederick of Holland, et al, was that the idea
>was to re-create the atmosphere of a High Middle Ages tournament,
>complete with knights in (sort of) shining armor, damsels, minstrels,
>etc.  Very much the romance of Mallory, Roland, the troubadors, and the
>like.

That's the way I read it in "Amra", too. And I loved the idea.

>The folks wanting to be elves, fairies, wizards, etc ad nauseum,
>came a good bit later (and nobody much cared for them, but they were to
>polite to tell them to go away).

Actually, that weren't the dreamers I was sympathizing with. The SCA
I was facinated with was the one described by the phrase "The Middle
Ages, not as they were, but as they should have been". Now, I distinctly
recall reading someone deplore that very description. I think it's an
lovely way of putting it, but no-one would claim that it has much to do
with strict historic re-enactment.

>Yes, the SCA was founded by dreamers.  But their's (and mine) was a
>dream of Arthur and the Round Table, Richard Lionheart, Harald
>Hardraadi, Byzantium and the Crusades, St. Louis, Jean d'Arc, and the
>Renaissnace visions of Leonardo, Michelangelo, and Raphael.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
------------
"I know there are some people in the world who do not tolerate their
fellow human beings, and I just can't _stand_ people like that!"
                                (after Tom Lehrer)
From: dew@ecl.psu.edu (Dur, Aga-Khan)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Refuting intelligence...
Date: 10 Sep 92 22:58:04 EDT
Organization: Orluk Oasis

Arval writes (and claims knowledge of law) that the ritual banning of Angus 
(and yes, I'll use the name) is a wrongful act and institutionalizes hatred.

This is no worse than what you, Arval, have been party to in the past.  

Be assured that casting of these stones, should you chose to do so, will 
likely bring forward the tales and facts that you wish were forgotten.

I am against institutionallized stupidity...which prevents the cleansing of 
the gene-pool.

Salam
-- 
Dale E. Walter     |Dur of Hidden Mountain          
dew@ecl.psu.edu    |Orluk Oasis on the War Road (of Aethelmarc)

"I'm the Baron!  Ya gotta loath me!"
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca,rec.video.releases
From: dododge@wam.umd.edu (David O. Dodge)
Subject: Re: Knight Riders (was Re: Prince of Thieves wrongos)
Followup-To: rec.video.releases
Summary: Available on VHS
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 01:16:43 GMT

In article <23365@sybase.sybase.com> leighann@fugazi.sybase.com (Leigh Ann Hussey) writes:
>Beannachaidh do 'n Rialto o Shiobhan!  And especially greetings to milord
>Aryk, who writes:
>> Ever sat with a bunch of middle-aged Scadians and watched _Knight Riders_
>> while pointing out who's supposed to represent which personality from
>> Pennsic X?
>
>I have only ever heard tell of this movie, and I've always wanted to see
>it.  Is it out on video?  If so, where can I get it?  If not, does
>somebody have a bootleg copy they could duplicate for me?  Thanking you
>in advance...

Yes, it is out on VHS. For many years it was almost impossible to find,
but a few weeks ago I noticed that it was available again ($10 at a
local Sam Goody store -- probably a cheapo EP version).

Followups to rec.video.releases...
                                        -Dave Dodge/dododge@wam.umd.edu
From: mjc+@cs.cmu.edu (Monica Cellio)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Taking on big jobs (was: Paying the Pennsic Autocrat)
Date: 10 Sep 92 15:27:04 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

Bertram says, on the subject of taking on large jobs like Steward, Laurel
Sovereign of Arms, TI Editor, Pennsic autocrat, and Kingdom Seneschal, 
Herald, or Chronicler for a large kingdom:

>The "Catch-22" of the problem is that anyone who volunteers to take on
>one of these jobs _is_ by definition CRAZY (since they're such back-
>breaking undertakings) and therefore should be unqualified to hold
>the position.

I realize that Bertram didn't really mean that, and I agree that some of 
the problems he mentions do occur (award grubbing, neurosis, etc), but I 
think that someone who approaches one of those jobs with a firm idea of 
how to deal with it and a willingness to delegate, manage, and organize 
rather than just *doing* everything can succeed in one of those jobs 
without being a candidate for the state psych ward.  The jobs don't *have* 
to be back-breaking in the hands of the right person, though of course none 
will be easy by any stretch of the imagination.  The trick is to make sure
that candidates really are prepared before they get in there; the outgoing
officer needs to help with training and someone needs to make sure that
the person has the appropriate background to be able to pull the job off
without panicking.

Ellisif
From: helm@jade.ucdavis.edu (Catie Helm)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: HEELS
Date: 14 Sep 92 07:58:39 GMT
Reply-To: helm@jade.ucdavis.edu
Organization: Geology Department, University of California, Davis

I finally found and unpacked my leather references.  Here's what
I have on heels on shoes: heels appeared on shoes and boots in the
second half of the sixteenth century in europe.

Ref: John W. Waterer, "Leather"; in _History of Technology_, editted
by Singer & Holmyard, Claredon Press, Oxford.
The article I have is a reprint from the above book, and has no date
on it.  Sorry.  :-(

Waterer, for those of you who don't know, is the quentissential authority
on historical leathercraft.  He founded a museum in Northhampton, England
which is full of nifty stuff.  During his lifetime, he sought out and
collected and cataloged hundreds of leather artifacts.  He published
many excellent books on the subject also, the best of which are _Leather
in Life, Art and Industry_ and "Leather and the Warrior_.  To his
discredit, he also destroyed a number of works on the subject of historical
leathercraft in various university libraries, because he disagreed with
them.  Those works are now lost, and we will never be able to judge for
ourselves as to the validity of their conclusions.

Twcs
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Catie Helm, internet: helm@geology.ucdavis
Stable Isotope Lab, Geology Dept.
University of California, Davis
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: peterh@netcom.com (Peter John Harrison)
Subject: Schedule of events / Is there an FAQ? 
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 92 07:21:25 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

Is there an FAQ for events in the West?  Or if not, could someone contact
me with this information (I dropped out for a number of years, but would
like to get back).

Specifically, BTW, when / where is October Crown???
===============================================================================
peterh@netcom.com
415-433-5500 (work)
(Gregory of Malvern) 
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: the same-sex and pentacles threads
Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 16:39:04 GMT

In article <92Sep14.204045.27824@acs.ucalgary.ca> parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr) writes:

>As for same sex consorts? This is more difficult. I suggest
>that you find a fighter with a good chance at the crown,
>sympathetic to your cause, and willing to raise a big fuss.
>
>When he or she wins, have him or her say "I am putting this
>person (who is same sex) on the throne, then sit back and
>watch the fur fly. My guess is that the poor fighter will
>at minimum be banished. If a knight, probably disgraced.
>However a very large and noisy protest will have been made,
>keep doing that for long enough, and perhaps you can force
>a referendum on the subject.

A few points.  First, if a fighter stood up and said he wanted to fight
for another man, or that she wanted to fight for another woman, the worst
that is likely to happen IMHO is that the kingdom authorities would say
no, you can't, sorry.  Banished?  Disgraced?  Not likely.  Can you think
of _any_ SCA rule that is enforced that rigorously?

Second, the SCA hasn't done things by referendum in the last fifteen to
twenty years or so, except for creating geographical groups and confirming
barons.  I would be very surprised if this issue were put to referendum.
I do think that the Directors would respond to enough pressure by allowing
same-sex consorts because 1. they would be too embarassed not to and 2. not
too many people would fight for same-sex consorts anyhow.

Third, a tinkers dam is a part for repairing pots, and has nothing to do
with damnation, so it isn't spelled with an "n" on the end.

Aryk Nusbacher

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca