HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 01:13:30 -0400 
From: Radu Eugen Edelstein <re0x+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Israel: Chutzpah at the Negotiating Table

Nora writes:
Anyone who crosses that line or breaks the demilitarization pact is subject
to anything the other side can and wishes to do to them, up to and including
conquest and demolition. No UN cease-fire and no holds barred. Yes, this is
harsh, but I think for there to be any valid deterrence factor, it has to
be.


I say:
I suggest you read about similar attempts.  General Odd Bull's writings
about the matter should be edificatory (he spent quite a few years in
Israel as the UN supervisor of the ceasefire along all three fronts
- Jordanian, Sirian, and Egyptian).
It was difficult for the UN to do a good job and they received
lots of claims (some true, but most of them false) from all sides.
In a few situations it was actually impossible to identify the
party who started fireing.  With the newest types of weapons it would
be even more difficult.  Allowing one side to retaliate is practically
giving carte blanche to any party that wants to attack.
These problems are created by Israel's size.  Any large ceasefire area
(one that would be easier to supervise) would cut deep into each side's
territory and no party would like that.  After 67', in quite a few areas,
the Israeli and Jordanian posts were only a few tens of meters apart and
it was almost a daily routine to shoot at each other.
Giving the right to "harshly" retaliate is not acceptable to the UN.
In fact, the UN observers' first priority was to do what they could
to avoid escalation of local skirmishes, even more than deciding
who started the skirmish.

Rad
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss)
Subject: Re: BILL CLINTON ON ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE
Organization: NCR E&M Columbia SC.
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 16:03:27 GMT

>>If Rabin was correct in what he said last week on MCcneil Lehrer news
>>hour that he is prepared to offer the Palestininas a first step self
>>rule and elections on the next peace talks, it would be a good time
>>to end of boycott. I would prefer to see a final solution before the
>>end of the boycott.
>
>OK fine.  It should however be pointed out that the boycott (including
>the secondary boycott) is well-nigh illegal under international law.
>

International Law? This is a joke. If there is any law in the world
I will be living now with my parents in Haifa.

>Clearly this *was* a part of the decision on both sides.  However,
>you're a fool if you think that this was the controlling part, on either
>side. 
> 

I did not understand this one. Can you rephrase?

>
>There is, however, a big problem with who is really a Palestinian.  Note
>that I mean no disrespect, but the amount of false refugee passports
>which have the UNWRA stamp is pretty darned huge.  So is the level of
>fraud.  Further, Jordan's population is well over half Palestinian, and
>many of those *aren't* 1948 refugees.
>

What do you mean fraud? Who wants this misreable refugee passport? 
I will be glad to give you mine. The number of refugees is known.
If you watched Rabin on MCcneel Lehrer news hour you would have 
heard him say the number of the palestinians outside the territory,
that is in all the Arab countries: 1.9 Million.  He said he is not
ready to accept their return. Is this fair? 


-- 
Nabil Idriss                           |       FOR EVERY ACTION AN OPPOSITE  
NCR - Midrange Products Division       |       AND EQUAL REACTION.
      Columbia, South Carolina         |      
email: nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM |
From: rdtst+@pitt.edu (Richard D Thorne)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Lehi and nazies
Date: 20 Aug 92 16:34:25 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
From: anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Muslims killed in Yeguslavia
Date: 14 Aug 92 19:33:28 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

In article <1398@yetti.UUCP> aboelaze@cs.yorku.ca (Mokhtar Aboelaze) writes:
>In article <Bsy071.7K9@apollo.hp.com> goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com (Alex Goykhman) writes:
>>
>>    The mourners that were shelled in front of the TV cameras were
>>    attacked with RIFLE GRENADE LAUNCHERS.  I do not know the exact
>>    range of this type of weapons, but I doubt that the attack could 
>>    come from the Serb-controlled hills surrounding Sarajevo.  
>>
>>    Some "friendly fire", perhaps???
>>
>>


Nonsense.  This was the Serbian line, until journalists *in* Sarajevo
completely debunked this claim.  Serbian mortars and shells are very 
capable of reaching this portion of the city.




-- 
Anwar Mohammed                           Graduate Student
anwar+@cs.cmu.edu  (NeXTmail welcome)    School of Computer Science
Voice: +1 412 268 3043                   Carnegie-Mellon University
Fax:   +1 412 681 5739                   Pittsburgh, PA  15213-3890
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Lehi and nazies
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 22:12:02 GMT

In article <1992Aug11.152038.1571@dscomsf.desy.de> hallam@zwsclu. writes:
>In article <4428@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP>, rdtst+@pitt.edu (Richard D
>Thorne) writes:

>The end of defeating the NAZI's in Europe is commonly thought to have
>justified a war which cost 60 million lives. 
>
>It is the pro-Shamir view that holds that their ends justified a pact
>with the NAZIs.

Seeing as Shamir wasn't leading Britain at the time and wasn't even
leading any government, his concentration on saving Jewish lives,
instead of the larger goal of ending the war, is understandable.
You do what you can, not what you can't.

>|> You'll have to explain
>|>   what the British risked by honoring the terms of their Mandate to
>|>   establish a Jewish Homeland.
>
>The Axis powers were eventualy defeated by denying them material, in
>particular oil. Nobody was prepared to risk any possibility of opening
>up another front by resettling a group of people making claims to own
>the whole area.

The British weren't asked to resettle "a group of people making claims 
to own the whole area."  By the time of independence in 1948, Israel
was only a tiny fraction of Palestine.  The British WERE asked to
allow these Jews to evacuate to safety from the Nazis.  This they did
not do.  Millions died, perhaps needlessly.  


-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com               Pat Paulsen for President
American-Occupied New York                    This year he has a real chance!
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: He Who Saves a Single Soul...
From: rivk@quads.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 16:08:32 GMT
Reply-To: rivk@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations

In article <1992Aug18.204449.10608@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM> nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss) writes:
>In article <1992Aug17.140232.19511@rs.com> horen@rs.com writes:
>>
>>>                     Attention Israel Line Recipients
>>>  
>>>                         Monday  August 17, 1992
>>>  
>>>  
>>> Peres Approves Israeli Arab Initiative to Bring Yugoslavian Orphans
>>> to Israel
>>>  
>>> Today's AL HAMISHMAR reports that Foreign Minister Shimon Peres
>>> yesterday approved the Muslim Rescue Committee's mission to bring
>>> orphans from the embattled areas of Bosnia to Israel. In a letter
>>> sent to the Muslim Committee, Peres said that he welcomes the
>>> initiative of the members of the committee to save children from
>>> the war torn areas without regard to religion or nationality. 
>> 
>>I'm waiting to see which of the Arab media report approval by
>>the Foreign Ministers of the Arab League/GCC members to bring
>>Jewish orphans from war-torn Bosnia-Herzegovina to their countries.
>
>
>Why did you emphasize "Arabs" instead of "Moslem" countries? There is 
>a lot of them like Pakistan, Iran, Azerbijan, Turkey.You also speak 
>like you own the whole land of Palestine. Remember that it belongs to
>Arab Moslems as well.     

At the moment, Nabil, we *do* own the whole thing except the part that
is Jordan. You may not like the fact; you may be trying as hard as you
can to change it, but it's true for right now.

>If you think that Saudi Arabia or Kuwait or any of the Gulf States will
>bring in any orphans no matter what religion they are, you must be joking.
>They are already getting rid of other Arabs. 

We know that; that's the point. Israel is already considerably more
badly overpopulated than Saudi Arabia is, and can much less afford
to take in anyone they don't have to. But Saudi Arabia is getting
rid of other Arabs, whereas Israel is taking in not only any Jews
who want to come, but non-Jewish refugees on purely humanitarian
grounds. So don't start trying to talk to me about Israeli ruth-
lessness and selfishness or about Muslim solidarity.

>Nabil Idriss      

	-Nora
-- 
"Light one candle for those who are suffering pain we learned so long ago..."

Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:18885 alt.flame:12218
From: rem@btr.btr.com
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,alt.flame
Subject: U.S. Plans to overfly & control southern Iraq, improper?
Date: 20 Aug 92 10:56:00 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.mideast
Distribution: usa
Organization: BTR Public Access UNIX, MtnView CA. Contact: Customer Service cs@BTR.COM

From biz.clarinet.sample: <<... the U-S plans to establish air patrols
over southern Iraq in order to keep Saddam Hussein's planes from
attacking Shiite villagers. A Pentagon official who asked NOT to be
named said the U-S will enforce what he called a ``NO-fly'' zone in
southern Iraq.>>

Isn't this a violation of Iraq's airspace and sovergnity? It's one
thing for the U.S. to act under U.N. banner to support a U.N. sanction,
but it's another for the U.S. to unilaterally commit an act of war on
another nation, even if the other nation has been naughty lately.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Subject: Re: Schmidling is simply wrong.
Reply-To: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 15:50:36 GMT


In a previous article, eggertj@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41) says:

>I read an interesting account of the Liberty affair (you know, when
>the Israelis bombed the USS Liberty during the 1967 Arab-Israeli war)
>in the book
>        AUTHOR: Steven, Stewart, 1937-
>         TITLE: The spymasters of Israel / Stewart Steven.
>     PUB. INFO: New York : Macmillan, c1980.
>   DESCRIPTION: xxi, 329 p., [4] leaves of plates : ill. ; 24 cm.
>
>According to Steven, the attack on the Liberty was by no means a
>mistake.  (I know that has been hashed out on the net already, but go
>on.)  The Israelis had been intercepting radio transmissions from
>Cairo and rebroadcasting them to Jordan in a modified form, making the
>war news sound like Egypt was winning.  This was an obvious attempt to
>lure Jordan into the war, which succeeded.

The fact that the unfortunate Liberty incident occurred several days
-after- Jordan attacked Israel exposes the absurdity of these lies.
-- 
bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: eisig@ilws72 (Eisig David)
Subject: Re: Settlers + Guns = Death
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 14:06:14 GMT
Organization: Intel
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
: In article <1992Aug9.075757.7382@discus.technion.ac.il> davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami) writes:
: >In article <1992Aug5.171208.13303@news.clarkson.edu> saleham@cauchy.mcs.clarkson.edu.clarkson.edu writes:
: 
: >>Date : the summer of 1989. (July?)
: >>Place: Near the settlement Eiril(sp) in West Bank.
: >>Source: Radio Israel
: 
: >>A settler going back to the settlement at night with his son.
: >>They noticed movement and cigarette's light in the olive groves
: >>by the road. The settler, gets out of the car and shoot, suspecting
: >>Palestinians. They returned fire. The boy got killed, his father
: >>wounded. The Army patrol came out of the grove to find out that
: >>they have just shot a settler.
: 
: >The settler probably shot in the air, that explains why no one from
: >the patrol was injured.
: >BTW, I never heard of an Eiril settlement?
: 
: Where did Anwar get this story from?
: Does he remember hearing it on "Radio Israel"?
: Does anyone have any real information on this "incident"?
: 
I remember hearing it on Israeli radio, probably Galie Zahal .
Eiril might be Ariel .
: -- 
: Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com               Pat Paulsen for President
: American-Occupied New York                    This year he has a real chance!
: My opinions only - employer has no opinions.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss)
Subject: Re: BILL CLINTON ON ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE
Organization: NCR E&M Columbia SC.
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 16:20:56 GMT

>Then, what concessions would you offer at this point?  Would you be willing
>to stop stabbing Israeli women and children in the back, and just
>concentrating on men?
>
Yes, if your airplanes will stop bombing civilians in South Lebanon we will do
that.

>Complain to the eastern Palestinian government then, not to us.

Do you think we get better treatment at Tel-Aviv airport? We will probably
get a kick in the butt in addition.
>-- 


-- 
Nabil Idriss                           |       FOR EVERY ACTION AN OPPOSITE  
NCR - Midrange Products Division       |       AND EQUAL REACTION.
      Columbia, South Carolina         |      
email: nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM |
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: odkahn@eos.ncsu.edu (OPHER DANIEL KAHN)
Subject: Re: Arab/Isreali Wars
Organization: North Carolina State University
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 19:26:34 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.173032.1122@das.harvard.edu>, adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
|> In article <stricher-180892001707@stayman.ocean.fsu.edu> stricher@masig.fsu.edu (Char Aznabul) writes:
|> >Speaking of the Arab/Israeli wars, could someone explain to
|> >me [very slowly if you must ;] how in 1973 the Syrians managed
|> >to get two armies up on the Golan without the Israelis 
|> >finding out about it *before* they attacked?
|> 
|> Very simply:
|> 
|> The War started Oct 6th, 1973.  This "happened" to be Yom Kippur, the
|> Day of Attonement, when all religious Jews spend the day fasting and
|> in synagouge praying.
|> 
|> The Israeli government did not believe that the Arab governments would
|> start a war on the Holiest day in the Jewish calendar.
|> 
|> Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu


Nice picture, but no cigar.  The military inteligence knew about the movements,
but the people analyzing the information were too smug from the six-day war
victory, and basically screwed up!  There were lengthly hearings on this
screw-up after the war.  The whole fiasco was known in Hebrew as the MECHDAL.

-- 
 Opher D. Kahn 
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.afghanistan,soc.culture.iranian
From: benali@alcor.concordia.ca ( ILYESS B. BDIRA )
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: ISLAMIC WORLD NEWS (7th)
Date: 15 Aug 92 01:45:00 GMT

oueichek@ngulu (Ibaa Oueichek) writes:

>  Why are you always obsessed by speaking about "the crusades and the
>inquisition" ?, ever looked into a mirror ?.

I am not obsessed by anything, I just speak my mind and I think that
the guy named Larry and t a lessor extent Dave Bakken are what the 
inquisition is all about and what Colonization tried to achieve.
The crimes in Bosnia show that even in this century the same crimes
committed during the inquisition can happen while the rest of the world
keeps silent or just shed some crocodile tears.
The best way to brainwash people and make criminals out of them is to
lie about the enemy. Do you know that Serbs believe that Muslims kill
christian babies and drink their blood? In a western newspaper a woman
was surprised that the journalist did not know this "fact".. So who
is the real criminal? it is people who  spread lies about Muslims and make it
easy for them to be hated and slaughtered.
Dave Bakken is doing a good job at that.

I know I lost my temper the other day because I was disgusted by Dave's
veiled defense of Larry (equating him with the Muslim world news while
all the MWN is doing is reporting what is happening from a Muslim perspective)
and because he keeps telling lies about Islam and Shariaa (soe of which
you have adopted in your response to me) while I do not have the time
to answer his misconceptions. Actually he incists on repeating the lies about
the treatment of christians in Muslim world while many people have answered
them before.
>: 
>: It seems that christianity never changed after all.

>  I'll take offense here, and i'll ask you to apologize immediatly. Because
>you are an obsessed fanatic, and a narrow minded idiot. This phrase is pure 
>bigotry that leaves no doubt about your intentions.

O.K I admit it was not wise for me to say that.. I just said it to hurt
Dave Bakken where it hurts most. My posting is just a retaliation to
his continuous disregard of Muslim feelings and I wanted to give him a dose
of his own medecine.

You are a bit reactionnary in your attack, you generalized about me from
just that sentence while you seem not to know anything about my views..
In the area of Muslim/Nonmuslim relationship my views actually are the
most moderate you can find among Islamists (I beleive that nonmuslims
should have equal opportunity in all jobs, Communist parties and atheists
should be allowed to have their newspapers etc..)
The rule that I beleive in:
-Be peaceful with whoever wants peace even if they are nonmuslim
-Fight whoever fights you even if they were Muslims.

If I am an obsessed fanatic because of that, then so be it.

Other Flames deleted..
From: aboelaze@cs.yorku.ca (Mokhtar Aboelaze)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Muslims killed in Yeguslavia
Date: 14 Aug 92 16:33:35 GMT
Article-I.D.: yetti.1398
Organization: York University, Dept. of Computer Science

In article <Bsy071.7K9@apollo.hp.com> goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com (Alex Goykhman) writes:
>
>    The mourners that were shelled in front of the TV cameras were
>    attacked with RIFLE GRENADE LAUNCHERS.  I do not know the exact
>    range of this type of weapons, but I doubt that the attack could 
>    come from the Serb-controlled hills surrounding Sarajevo.  
>
>    Some "friendly fire", perhaps???
>
>
First, I am glad that this is the only part you did not like about my posting.

Second,
I was watching Prime Time Live last night, and they stated very clearly
that there are buildings in Sarajevo that is controlled by Serb snippers,
I don't know either the range of the RIFLE GRENADE LAUNCHERS,
but it is probably not much less than an ordinary rifle used by
a sniper.

Third
Even if it is "friendly fire", what difference does it make ?
In a war, people kill each other, and "friendly fire" is very probable
in a war. I still don't think that this is a good execuse not to try
to put an end to this war

>-- 
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Disclaimer: all opinions are mine.
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mokhtar Aboelaze   aboelaze@cs.yorku.ca
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:18900 alt.war:1817
From: noring@netcom.com (Jon Noring)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,alt.war
Subject: Re: Nuclear War in the Middle East - Soviet Nuclear Weapons Stolen?
Date: 21 Aug 92 15:00:14 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

In article jac54@cas.org () writes:

>In article <r8#ncrn.noring@netcom.com> noring@netcom.com (Jon Noring) writes:

>>Hello,
>>
>>I've been hearing rumors (the lowest form of information) that during the
>>breakup of the Soviet Union, some of the Soviet tactical nuclear weapons were
>>acquired surreptitiously by one or more Islamic countries

>	This was covered on sci.military some weeks ago.  The problem
>	with moving nuclear weapons without certain permissions is that
>	they are wired to self-destruct (i.e. rendered inoperable, we'd
>	have noticed the bang).  The best that they have is a few pieces
>	of fissile material that may still be in the right conformation
>	(maybe).  The Israeli nuclear stockpile is one of the worst-kept
>	secrets of our time.


Is this true with respect to Soviet nuclear weapons?  I've been under
the impression that they are nowhere near as sophisticated as ours are,
and that they are not safed.  

Jon Noring

-- 
=============================================================================
| Jon Noring          | noring@netcom.netcom.com | "The dogs bark, but the  |
| JKN International   | IP    : 192.100.81.100   |  caravan moves on."      |
| 1312 Carlton Place  | Phone : (510) 294-8153   | "Pack your lunch, sit in |
| Livermore, CA 94550 | V-Mail: (510) 862-1101   |  the bushes, and watch." |
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"If your annual income today is $50,000, you have the same buying power as
the average coal miner did in 1949, adjusted for taxes and inflation," John
Sestina, nationally recognized Certified Financial Planner;  quoted in 1987.
From: bval@ilws61 (Valentine Bob)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Those Rich Palestinians
Date: 12 Aug 92 12:06:43 GMT
Organization: Intel
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

I just saw Jakes article on the rich Palestinians (or Israeli Arabs)
who've made their fortunes selling inferior cement to settlements on
the West Bank. 

It reminds me of Reagans talk where he mentioned the the many American
"Indian" millionares from oil and gas found on their land.

A cartoon was discussing this and in the last frame Reagan says "why Jed
Clampett, though not exactly an Indian..."

But I digress.

Bob 
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Israel: Chutzpah at the Negotiating Table
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 18:04:18 GMT

In article <10248@sun13.scri.fsu.edu> stricher@masig.fsu.edu (Char Aznabul) writes:
>In article <1992Aug9.214257.18012@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>  
>bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:

>+    If peace nevers materializes, it might be partially due to the
>+ fact that the Arab side has offered nothing.  They do nothing but
>+ make demands.  This, as much as anything, will force the peace to
>+ be nothing more than a dream.

>And what would you like them to offer? If they say they will not
>destroy Irael, you will call them liars! 

>So *what* conecessions would you have them make?

1. Change the Covenant to reflect the new thinking - specifically, the
call to armed struggle as the main instrument of change, the claim to
the whole area, and a recognition of the right of all Israelis to live
within secure, recognized, and undisputed boundaries.

2. Call off the boycott.

3. Apologize for the senseless murder of Olympic Athletes, cripples,
Europeans, and everyone not directly involved in the conflict.

They could even recognize Israels right to exist, in clear, explicit
language.

Maybe call for a halt to violent protests for a month.

Meet in the region, Cairo or Tel-Aviv should both be acceptable sites
to all parties.  Why are middle East peace talks taking place in
Washington?  Parties should negotiate with each other, not via Baker.

Adam






Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all.  How true that is.      
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast