HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: losway@peg.pegasus.oz.au
Newsgroups: aus.politics
Date: 22 Aug 92 20:18 EST
Subject: Re: If what I saw was true....
Nf-ID: #R:brian.713773414@coombs:384170686:peg:996200263:000:860
Nf-From: peg.pegasus.oz.au!losway    Aug 22 20:18:00 1992


>Economists have fallen into an old trap - they believe that
>if they can measure something, they somehow understand 
>something.
(c) 1992 Phil Herring (ph@cs.uow.edu.au)
 
Exactly. A lot of the (artificial) glow held by economics would 
disappear if only we could adopt the proper perspective. The 
things that economists measure are the RESULTS of a vast 
complexity of activities, reduced to a few relatively simple 
factors. By changing these factors you do not affect the sum 
total of society - you merely emphasise some aspects and 
therefore are bound to push the system out of balance.
 
Following the logic that says we must have economists to run our 
country, it would be far more logical to appoint heart surgeons: 
after all, EVERYBODY has a heart!
 
All due respect to specialists; as long as they stay in their 
rightful place.
 
Peter Wenger
From: cwarren@peg.pegasus.oz.au
Newsgroups: aus.politics
Date: 15 Aug 92 22:19 EST
Subject: Re: Support What Property Rights???
Nf-ID: #R:peg:996200258:peg:996200260:000:1
Nf-From: peg.pegasus.oz.au!cwarren    Aug 15 22:19:00 1992
From: cwarren@peg.pegasus.oz.au
Newsgroups: aus.politics
Subject: Re: Support What Property Rights???
Date: 16 Aug 92 03:29:00 GMT
Nf-ID: #R:peg:996200258:peg:996200261:000:721
Nf-From: peg.UUCP!cwarren    Aug 15 22:29:00 1992





Some silly scriptor - suter - seeks sense surrounding "capitalist
property".

Stupid suter should say sorry.  Sense surrounding sample statement seems
so simple.........

      CAPITALIST PROPERTY IS NATURAL PROPERTY BUT SUBSEQUENTLY MISUSED
      BY SOME TO EXTRACT ADDITIONAL "CAPITALIST PROFIT" FROM OTHERS.

      CAPITALIST PROFIT IS PROFIT IN EXCESS OF THE NATURAL RATE ITSELF
      BASED ON THE RATE OF REAL ECONOMIC GROWTH.  CAPITALIST PROFIT IS
      ACCUMULATED BY EXPROPRIATING THE WEALTH PRODUCED BY OTHERS.

      NO EXPROPRIATION - NO CAPITALISM.  NO CAPITALISM - NO CAPITALIST
      PROPERTY.  NO CAPITALIST PROPERTY - NO CAPITALIST PROPERTY RIGHTS. 
      NO CAPITALIST PROPERTY RIGHTS - NO SUTER.
Newsgroups: aus.religion
From: boutland@monu1.cc.monash.edu.au (Mr J Boutland)
Subject: Re: What is fundamentalism
Organization: Monash University, Australia.
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 04:23:40 GMT

lesley@pleasanton.EBay.Sun.COM (Lesley Smith - Test Engineering) writes:


>	To answer Helen Lee's question..What is fundamentalism ???.	

>	It's...Holding the bible to the sole historical and prophtic authority.

May I ask how this position is justified ?

John Boutland.

Newsgroups: aus.religion
From: walter_m@cs.uwa.oz.au (Smell McFartin')
Subject: Who does he think he is?
Summary: "parable"
Keywords: Suffering, God, Judgement
Organization: Dept. Computer Science, University of Western Australia.
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 04:58:23 GMT



I read this articl in the "Pelican" - ie the UWA Guild of Undergratuates newspaper:


WHO DOES HE THINK HE IS??

Some people believe that at the end of time some guy called God is going to
assess the lives of everyone. Can you imagine it? Billions of people all
shepherded together. Some are shrinking back in fear of being shown up before
all their mates - apparently this God can read minds and has a memory like an
elephant.

But a few braver souls take up the challenge. 'Who does he think he is? We're
not answerable to him.' 'What does he know about suffering?' snaps a young
woman with pain etched in her face. She rips back her sleeve to real a tattoed
number froma Nazi concentration camp. 'We were beaten...tortured...murdered.'

A young aboriginal bloke opens his collar. 'What about this?' he demands,
showing an ugly rope burn. 'They made it look like suicide, those pigs!' A
honey skinned child, skin stretched tight over her skeleton, joins in the complaints. '
Why should I starve to death? It wasn't my fault.'

The murmurs of discontent gather volume. Lots have complaints against God for
the evil and suffering he permitted in the world. How come he could sit up in
heaven in comfort and ease, when there was so much fear and pain, hunger and
hatred on earth? What does God know of what we have gone through - he has had
a very sheltered life.

They decide to send a delegation to God, made up of those who had suffered the
mose. A Jes, an Aborigine, a person from Hiroshima, an Ethipoian, a rape victim.
They prepare their case with care and cunning. Before God could be qualified to
be their judge, he must endure what they endured. Their verdict is that God
should be sentenced to live on earth - as a man!

Let him be born a Jew. Let the legitimacy of his birth be doubted. Give him a
job so difficult that even his family will think he's out of his mind when he
tries to do it. Let him be betrayed by his closest friends. Let him face
trumped up charges, be tried by a prejudiced jury and convicted by a cowardly
judge. Let him be tortured. At last let him dies - painfully, slowly, absolutely
alone except for whose who gloat over him.

The crowds voice their approval as the verdict is announced. But when the
sentence has been pronounce, there is a long silence. No one utters another
word. No one moves. For suddenly all know that God has already served the
sentence.

Tim Throburn
Christian Union
From: lesley@pleasanton.EBay.Sun.COM (Lesley Smith - Test Engineering)
Newsgroups: aus.religion
Subject: What is fundamentalism
Date: 12 Aug 1992 22:06:18 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: lesley@pleasanton.EBay.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: pleasanton.ebay.sun.com

	To answer Helen Lee's question..What is fundamentalism ???.	

	It's...Holding the bible to the sole historical and prophtic authority.



Newsgroups: aus.religion
From: jhb@maths.su.oz.au (John Brownie)
Subject: Re: Translating the Bible
Organization: School of Mathematics and Statistics, University of Sydney
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 00:09:49 GMT

In <adjg.713785316@suite.sw.oz.au> adjg@suite.sw.oz.au (Andrew Gollan) writes:

>|John Brownie
>|School of Mathematics and Statistics   |    Wycliffe Bible Translators
>					              ^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^
>I was just curious. As a linguist and a bible translator, John, do you
>translate from the English translation of the Hebrew, Aramaic and Koine
>Greek, or do you work from the best original texts? I know you are headed
>to Papua New Guinea, how will you actually approach the task of translating
>the Bible into a tribal language?

The answer to that is that we use as many resources as we can.  I am
moderately competent at Koine Greek, I've forgotten most of my Hebrew,
and I've never studied Aramaic.  There are a lot of publications which
give analyses of the texts, focusing on different aspects.  For
example, there are semantic analyses of extended passages.  The other
thing that is of great help is the collection of "commentary
compilations", which give you summaries of different views on passages,
taken from the leading commentaries on each book.

>As a classicist myself, the dangers of multiple hop translating seems
>fraught with almost certain semantic doom.

Yes and no.  With enough controls (such as those listed above) it is
reasonable.  The point is that you are not doing the semantic analysis
for yourself (at least, in its entirety).  Rather, it is more a matter
of putting the meaning into the target language.

Hope this helps - I'd be happy to expand on it if people want more
info.
--
John Brownie
School of Mathematics and Statistics   |    Wycliffe Bible Translators
University of Sydney NSW 2006          |    Graham Rd
Internet: jhb@maths.su.oz.au           |    Kangaroo Ground Vic 3097 AUSTRALIA
Newsgroups: aus.religion
From: jhb@maths.su.oz.au (John Brownie)
Subject: Re: Reading the Bible. 
Organization: School of Mathematics and Statistics, University of Sydney
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 00:24:23 GMT

In <1992Aug13.000132.26023@cltr.uq.OZ.AU> gar@cltr.uq.oz.au (Greg Restall) writes:

>Things like the book "Linguistics and Biblical Interpretation" 
>by Cotterell and Max Turner (SPCK/IVP)  [Telnet to the UQ library:
>`libsys.library.uq.oz.au' for further publishing details.] 
>are of a great help.  They go over some of the exciting 
>developments in the linguistic scene, and how they shape how
>we ought to approach the Bible.  Very Good.

I concur - it's a good book, well worth taking the time to read.  It
may be hard going at the start for the non-linguist (even I found it a
little dry, and I am a linguist!), but it does get better when they get
into the main part of the book.  Some of their extended exegetical work
is very useful - I haven't seen it in any of the commentaries that I
have used.
--
John Brownie
School of Mathematics and Statistics   |    Wycliffe Bible Translators
University of Sydney NSW 2006          |    Graham Rd
Internet: jhb@maths.su.oz.au           |    Kangaroo Ground Vic 3097 AUSTRALIA
Newsgroups: aus.religion
From: adjg@suite.sw.oz.au (Andrew Gollan)
Subject: Translating the Bible
Organization: Softway Pty Ltd
Date: 14 Aug 92 09:41:56 GMT

|John Brownie
|School of Mathematics and Statistics   |    Wycliffe Bible Translators
					              ^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^
I was just curious. As a linguist and a bible translator, John, do you
translate from the English translation of the Hebrew, Aramaic and Koine
Greek, or do you work from the best original texts? I know you are headed
to Papua New Guinea, how will you actually approach the task of translating
the Bible into a tribal language?

As a classicist myself, the dangers of multiple hop translating seems
fraught with almost certain semantic doom.

I'm posting this because I thought more people than just myself would be
interested.
-- 
Q.C. (Queen's Counsellor): A	|Andrew Gollan - "Anti-Family and proud of it"
learned associate of a gay man.	|Phone: +61 2 698 2322  Fax: +61 2 699 9174
Handbag: A male fashion	     __	|Softway, GPO Box 305,
accessory of a gay woman.    \/	|Strawberry Hills NSW 2012, Australia
Newsgroups: aus.religion
From: callum@bain3.bain.oz.au (Callum Gibson)
Subject: The hardening of Pharaoh's heart.
Organization: Bain & Company, Sydney, AUSTRALIA
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 23:08:18 GMT


I came across a good analogy in my morning reading yesterday.  Remember when
the Israelites were in Egypt?  God called upon Moses to become the leader of
Israel and to go to Pharaoh and ask for their release from slavery so they
could go and serve God.  The story is in Exodus 5-11.  Even though God
performed many signs Pharaoh refused to let them go because his heart was
hardened.  There are three ways that this is described.  One says, "God
hardened his heart", one says, "he (Pharaoh) hardened his heart", and the
third simply says, "his heart was hardened".  Some have taken these verses to
suggest that God inflicted the plagues upon the innocent Egyptians, and that
they had no choice in the matter since it was God who hardened Pharaoh's heart.

For the Christian who knows what our God is like this does not make sense,
of course.  But here is an analogy that will hopefully help both sides
understand a bit more.  Firstly, my commentary makes the point that we have
to work out what God _did_ to harden Pharaoh's heart.  From the passage we
see that he simply displayed his authority and sovereignty.  Remember that
the first sign that was performed was Aaron's rod eating the serpent rod's
of the magicians'.  So we can liken (this is the analogy bit) God to the hot
sun, and Pharaoh's heart to clay.  The sun just shines, noone blames it for
doing so, yet it can harden clay.  Likewise, God displayed his own glory but
Pharaoh's heart was hardened.  If Pharaoh's heart had been made of wax, it
would have melted.  The choice to have a heart of clay or wax was Pharaoh's
and that determined what effect exposure to God would have.

So there you go.  I hope you find that as interesting as I did.

regards,
    Callum
-- 
Callum Gibson                           callum@bain3.bain.oz.au
Eyeball Temporary Analyst/Programmer    BH : +61 2 258 1620
Fixed Income Division                   Fax: +61 2 258 1128
Bain & CO, Sydney, Australia.           AH : :-)
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Saturday, 22 Aug 1992 00:16:07 CDT
From: <U09416@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: aus.religion
Subject: Christian Eternal Security

For those concerned about their eternal security, they can find in the book
of Jude 1:1 where God is the sanctifier and preserver of those who believe.
Also, in the book of Hebrews 1O:14, God is the perfecter for ever those he
has sanctified. And the last reference I have is I Peter 1:4,5 where it says
we have an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and does not fade away
reserved in Heaven for you who are kept by the power of God through faith to be
revealed in the last days. And last but not least, in the gospel of John 10:28
his sheep will not be snatched out of his (God) hands and they shall never
perish. So all there is to it is that one believes that God has raised Christ
from the dead with his heart and thou shalt be saved.

May Grace and Peace be with you,

Brother Michael Milligan
Newsgroups: aus.parallel,comp.arch
From: william@natimuk.acci.com.au (William Lo)
Subject: Re: Using finger on foreign hosts (help wanted)
Keywords: finger
Organization: Can't be my uni!
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 03:21:31 GMT

Re your finger question, yes, you sure can.
You can do finger from your host to any machines(provided they 
allow so) round the world. 
If you don't have access to finger, grab a copy of it from an
FTP server(remember get the right one - the one that runs on your
particular machines). Pretty tricky, but you can also finger
on nic.ddn.mil - if you prefer to take a short cut!

---
Bill (not sure if I can post this via rn!)
From: phs431d@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au
Newsgroups: aus.films
Subject: The Nasty Girl
Date: 18 Aug 92 22:41:58 +1000
Organization: Monash University - Melbourne. Australia.

Anybody else catch `The Nasty Girl' (translation) on SBS on Monday
night?  I was lucky enough to be persuaded by my girlfriend to sit
around and watch it (after Millenium which was also quite good).

(For those who don't know, it was a German film about a girl who
wants to write a story about how her home town resisted the Nazis
only to find several collective skeletons in the closet and the
repurcussions of her research.  A very serious topic but done (very
well) as a black comedy. )

This comedy was full of fun, humour, interesting camera-work and
scenes as well as being insightful and provoking thought.  Basically
I felt it was well written all round (story, characterisation,
dialogue etc).

I was quite taken by the scenes where the family was in the living
room, yet the background was of a coach(?) travelling through the
town.  Was it intended to mean that the whole town was watching
their every move?

I was also taken by the starring actress Lena Stoltze (spelling?).
Her portrayal of both the teenage and adult Sonja was delightful.

I only have one other query though ...

** SPOILER ** (if perchance there is a way to get this movie)

The ending was abrupt with Sonja taking out her frustrations on the
towns people who were trying to shut her up and she ended up running
to the `miracle tree' and hiding there.  Firstly I wasn't sure why
he (the director) ended it this way.  It apparently is based on a
true story of a girl who did what Sonja did.  I don't know the real
story, but my guess is she didn't do this.

If someone could enlighten me to

(1) why the director chose to end his film this way and
(2) what the real story was ...

it would be much appreciated.

-- 
Don Lowe, Department of Physics, Monash University, 
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia, 3168.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: aus.films
From: mpulver@research.canon.oz.au (Mark Pulver)
Subject: Re: The Nasty Girl (and Millenium)
Organization: Canon Information Systems Research Australia
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 22:39:35 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.224158.89798@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au> phs431d@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au writes:
>Anybody else catch `The Nasty Girl' (translation) on SBS on Monday
>night?  I was lucky enough to be persuaded by my girlfriend to sit
>around and watch it (after Millenium which was also quite good).
>
Sorry can't help you with `The Nasty Girl', I wanting to watch it, but
my girlfriend is dyslexic (something like that) so she can handle subtitles
very well.

I main point was your comment on Millenium,  I thought the show needs to
improve, if I'm going to watch another 9 shows.  The first show was a big
wank (excuse the langauge (the spelling, the grammar ..)).

Mark
Newsgroups: aus.films
From: smac@iconix.oz.au (Stuart McCormack)
Subject: The Player
Keywords: pretty bloody good
Organization: Iconix Pty Ltd (World Headquarters)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 10:54:39 GMT

Dunno if The Player is a "great" movie, but I do know that I haven't
stopped thinking about it and I'm very much looking forward to
seeing it again.

TP works on a number of levels; for the trivia nut you've got Spot
The Star ( count all 65 plus cast and you can consider yourself
Bill Collins ), for the budding director there's some very classy,
sometimes very subtle in-jokes, for the intellectual you've got
satire, sarcasm, and guilt, and for the average dweeb you've got
an interesting plot and an unforgetable cameo from Whoopi Goldberg.

Needless to say, I didn't understand any of it.

Good to see Altman back and in top form.

A red-hot mexican pizza with garlic sauce and a bottle of red on
the Sid & Nancy Scale.

	smac

Newsgroups: aus.films
From: schumach@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE (Christian Schumacher)
Subject: Re: The Nasty Girl
Followup-To: The Nasty Girl
Originator: schumach@sunbayer12.informatik.tu-muenchen.de
Organization: Technische Universitaet Muenchen, Germany
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 11:53:03 GMT


Hi there down under!

In his article about "The Nasty Girl" Don Lowe wanted to know how the real 
story behind the movie continued.
As far as I know, the real-life "Nasty Girl", Anja Rosmus-Wenninger, kept on 
writing books about german Nazi past all through the 80's (at least that was
what I'd heard of her until a couple of years ago). 
By the way, the actress Lena Stolze first became known in Germany in the role
of Sophie Scholl, a member of the Munich Nazi-resistance group 
"The White Rose",who she impressingly portrayed in "The 3 Last Days" 
(before being executed).

Bye,

Schumi
From: s861022@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au (Harry the Dirty Dog)
Newsgroups: aus.films
Subject: Re: The Player
Date: 19 Aug 92 16:27:35 GMT
Organization: Green Bomb Design Team & Assoc.

matap@lure.latrobe.edu.au (Andrej Panjkov, La Trobe Maths) writes:
>> I did particularly like the reference to the worlds longest tracking shot,
>> during an even longer tracking shot.
>> -- 
>Are you talking about the opening shot?  Was it really longer than the 
>shots in Hitchcocks Rope?  (I've heard there are only seven shots in Rope.)
>-- 

Well, the guy mentioned that nobody does good tracking shot...and that so
and so had done the longest one which was 6 minutes 45 seconds.  We timed
the opening shot and it was 7 minutes 16 seconds.  I have no idea how long
the one in Rope is.  Maybe I'll hire it and find out.


-- 
Harry the Dirty Dog		"That's one...small step...for a six foot dog...
[Philipp Grawe]			 Phhfft...one...giant leap...for a three foot
Near Permanent RMIT Student	 rabbity thing.."
s861022@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au		- Sam and Max: Bad Day on the Moon
From: voros@physics.monash.edu.au (Joe Voros)
Newsgroups: aus.films
Subject: Review: DEADLY (No spoilers)
Date: 14 Aug 92 13:36:01 +1000
Organization: Physics Department, Monash University, Australia.


DEADLY is a mystery thriller about a contemporary Australian issue --- 
Aboriginal deaths in custody.

A City Cop, Tony Burke, accidentally kills a drug user in a street
shoot-out with a crim, is cleared of wrong-doing (``She's only a
junkie.''), but is suspended from street duty.  His boss sends him off
to an outback town, Yabbabri, to 'clear up' an investigation into the
apparent hanging death of a local Aboriginal, Jimmy, in a police cell. 
If he does a 'good job,' he will get his old job back.

What Burke finds there gradually awakens his conscience and arouses his
revulsion at the whites' treatment of the Aboriginals.  From the moment
of arrival at Yabbabri, it is clear that something underhand is going
on.  The police and a great many of the whites are utterly racist;
unabashed and unashamed.  As the investigation goes on, it becomes
abundantly clear that Jimmy's death was not suicide.  A tangled web of
secrets emerges...

The film is not a sentimental one.  It is hard, raw and disturbing.  It
brings home hard to the viewer who might have been complacent, that 
Apartheid is alive, well and thriving here, no matter what they might
want to believe.  One ends up feeling very angry.  Burke is initially
inured to the anger of the dead man's brother.  In the end, he shares
it.  The film tries to portray a small step taken in understanding and
trust by each man.  Constrained as it is by time, a number of cliches
are evident.  Some people in the cinema bagged it for this.  Others I
spoke to felt that these were deliberate.  I am not sure.  I did not
feel that they detracted much from the film.  Some are situational,
others cinematic.  There is even, unfortunately, a love interest for
Burke.  On the whole, though, if you recognize that time constraints
bring the need for quick, thus cliched, resolution of plot situations,
you might notice more *what* is being said, rather than *how* it is
said.

Overall, the film is good viewing, if harrowing can be called good.  You
become involved in the lives of the characters, some of whom are very
complex.   In this sense, the film is good because its makes you care; 
it doesn't just wash over you.  The thriller aspect is well handled, and
the ending is satisfying, if a little over-done.  Thankfully, there is
no patronising of Aboriginals --- they are not portrayed as
one-dimensional objects to feel pity for;  they are present as *real*
people --- complex, angry, funny, sad, strong, caring, bonded --- not as
a mere plot device which is used to evoke a knee-jerk reaction.  Their
*humanity* is recognised by the film-maker, who wants us to recognize
it, too.  That is the simple `message' of the film.  ``Junkies and Bungs
are not all the same.  They have names, parents, and families, too.''

-- 
Joe Voros
Department of Physics, Monash University, Clayton, VIC, 3168, Australia.

Quantum Mechanics is God's way of telling you to mind your P_i's and Q_j's.
From: s861022@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au (Harry the Dirty Dog)
Newsgroups: aus.films
Subject: Re: The Player
Keywords: pretty bloody good
Date: 18 Aug 92 17:26:13 GMT
Organization: Green Bomb Design Team & Assoc.

smac@iconix.oz.au (Stuart McCormack) writes:
>Dunno if The Player is a "great" movie, but I do know that I haven't
>stopped thinking about it and I'm very much looking forward to
>seeing it again.

I was impressed, extremely impressed.  One of the few movies that I'd
thoroughly recommend seeing.

>TP works on a number of levels; for the trivia nut you've got Spot
>The Star ( count all 65 plus cast and you can consider yourself
>Bill Collins ), for the budding director there's some very classy,
>sometimes very subtle in-jokes, for the intellectual you've got
>satire, sarcasm, and guilt, and for the average dweeb you've got
>an interesting plot and an unforgetable cameo from Whoopi Goldberg.

I did particularly like the reference to the worlds longest tracking shot,
during an even longer tracking shot.


-- 
Harry the Dirty Dog		"That's one...small step...for a six foot dog...
[Philipp Grawe]			 Phhfft...one...giant leap...for a three foot
Near Permanent RMIT Student	 rabbity thing.."
s861022@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au		- Sam and Max: Bad Day on the Moon