From: adams@spss.com (Steve Adams)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: The Silent Holocaust
Date: 19 Nov 92 17:57:18 GMT
Organization: SPSS Inc.

hauk@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Keira E. Hauk) writes:

>I just galnced through this group for the first time, and I sense a lot of
>hostility...You can all beat me down however you want, but it is nothing
>compared to the silent holocaust going on every day in this country.
Hostility like 'yelling' (using all caps)?  Gee, look at your own post.
And your post is fairly hostile towards women.

> For all those out there who have had an abortion or are considering it:  YOU 
>MADE THAT CHOICE BEFORE YOU GOT PREGNANT!  
Engaging in sex is not an agreement to conception.  What do you say to a
woman who is on the pill and who's lover uses a condom but still turns up
pregnant?  That she *chose* to get pregnant?  I hardly see how, since she
did her best to exclude that possibility.

>Ok, excluding that small percentage of rape victims who get pregnant.  
Ah, so you have a double standard!  You equate abortion with the holocaust,
but then say, well, perhaps rape victims shouldn't be classified this way.
What about incest?

>But for the majority, don't tell me about your freedoms of choice.  You made 
>that choice the moment you had sexual intercourse.  
Hardly.  I have engaged in intercourse and taken every possible precaution
to prevent pregnancy.  I am taking every precaution.  You want to punish
women for having sex.

>What CHOICES did that baby have?  And how can you tell me when life begins?  
>Can you prove to me that life doen't begin until birth?  Can you define life? 
I'll answer the 'when does it begin' by saying this : legally, in our
system, it begins at birth.  Prior to birth, the fetus has no rights that
are protected in our system and is not, in matters of law, a person.

This is all that matters.  If you change the legal definition of person
(you'll have to ammend the constitution, I suspect), then you can try to
extend protection to fetuses.  But all you'll do is set up a conflict of
protected rights : a woman's rights vs. a fetus' rights.  Which take
precedence and why?

>What about the man.  He's not always the one to push for the abortion.  
>Doesn't he have his choices also?  Or do you also want the right to control 
>his sperm? 
Our legal system holds a man responsible for any offspring that issue from
a sexual relationship.  For me, this isn't a problem since I would actively
take such responsibility without being forced.  This is law that can be
changed, if you so desire.

Noone is trying to control his sperm...he can do that all by himself.

>These are just few of my many thoughts...And I must note that I wouldn't be 
>able to voice these thoughts if my birthmother had opted to have an abortion
>instead of giving me up for adoption in Bogota, Columbia!
"Hypothesis contrary to fact" fallacy!  I wouldn't be able to type this
message if I had been hit by a truck this morning.

>Also, I am a woman, if that makes any difference to you.
And I'm a man who opposes abortion but realizes that it *must* remain legal
and safe.

 -Steve
--
  The opinions expressed above are those of the author and not SPSS, Inc.
                         -------------------
   adams@spss.com                                  Phone: (312) 329-3522
   Steve Adams        "Space-age cybernomad"       Fax:   (312) 329-3558