From: markham@brtph600.bnr.ca (Andrew Markham P205)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: Jordan >= Magic && Bird
Keywords: n
Date: 26 Aug 92 21:17:35 GMT
Organization: Bell Northern Research Inc.

In article <1992Aug26.191118.15020@ticipa.pac.sc.ti.com> robert@landru.mtc.ti.com (Robert Treese) writes:
>In article <1992Aug26.152443.5240@brtph560.bnr.ca> markham@brtph600.bnr.ca (Andrew Markham P205) writes:
>>
>>The idea of this clip is to show that Jordan can dominate over any type
>>of player in an offensive matchup.  If you don't like the Mel comparison,
>>go back to the Bulls-NY playoff series when Jordan gets double-teamed on
>>the baseline by Wilkins and Oakley (with Ewing watching from under the 
>>basket).  Jordan looks like he gives up on the baseline and then whips
>>by both plays headed toward the hoop with full head of steam.  Ewing comes
>>out from under the basket to defend Jordan's attack and Jordan f*ck*ng
>>dunks all over him.  Magic and Bird could *never* do this (and that goes 
>>for the early 80's).  
>
>Could what, dunk over Ewing?  No they could not, but they could score in 
>a very giving the same defensive situation.

First let me say that your grammar stinks, as do your opinions.  

Second, let me say BBBZZZZZZZTTTTTTTTT, wrong answer.

Neither of Bird/Magic would have scored in this situation.  The correct
answer is that they would have known where the open man was and Parish/
Worthy would have the open dunk.  Cartwright would probably miss it.
Jordan is a *MUCH* better man-to-man player than either of these guys and
that is OBVIOUSLY what I am talking about.  

>>This clip was to make a statement about Jordan's defense prowess.  Something
>>that both Magic and Bird (ESPECIALLY BIRD!!!!!) can't hold a candle to.
>
>
>Apparently you don't think basketball is a team sport.  Sure Bird was not
>a good one on one defensive play but defensive is a lot more then stopping
>one person.  If this was true everybody would suck on defense.  Almost
>any starter can score on anybody in the NBA.  Bird was an extremly team
>oriented player especially with defense.  Check out Bird's carrer steals and
>defensive rebounds.  Also it takes a good defender to funnel a player into
>Robert and Kevin for the swat.

I know basketball is a team sport, but c'mon Bird's defense sucks in
comparison.  As for team defense, neither Bird nor Magic come close
to Jordan in that category either.  Jordan is one of the best at playing
the passing lanes and getting the 'steal from behind'.  As for it taking
a good defender to funnel a player into Robert and Kevin.  That's probably
the stupidest thing you say in this post.  Overplaying the baseline side
of a player is probably the easiest thing to do in basketball...but you
probably wouldn't know that since you just read Larry books, watch Celtics 
games, and figure your head isn't up your *ss.  You're wrong though, it is.

>>>And 4 little clips that can be countered with 4 clips from 
>>>Magic and 4 clips from Bird aren't gonna do it. Fine...your opinion is 
>>>Mike. but don't belittle Bird`s or Magic's accomplishments by brushing them 
>>>off. They deserve the credit that they earned, and (not directed toward you), 
>>>I am sick of hearing people say that Larry would have been a nobody had he 
>>>been white, and I am sick of hearing people say Magic and Bird got lucky by 
>>>entering the NBa when they did or they would never have been legends. Perhaps 
>>>you should go back to the 80's and watch these two play before making these
>>>statements... 
>>
>>I'm not quite sure how I belittled Bird or Magic by saying that I think
>>Jordan is better.  I would watch Magic play all day long (as long as Mike
>>wasn't in the game)!!!  These three will go down in history as 3 of the 
>>greatest of all time.  Picking the winner of the three is useless, because
>>someone will always disagree.
>>
>>Jordan still rules, though.
>>
>>BTW, I don't know if you're trying to convince me that someone is better
>>than Jordan or not, but I just wanted you to know that it is impossible.
>>
>>On an unrelated note, I'm also tired of hearing the Larry's good because he's 
>>white comments, but I've taken a different approach.  
>>
>>The people that think Larry is good only because he's white are probably the 
>>same people that think blacks are faster and can jump higher because they
>>are black.  If this is true, does that mean that they are suggesting that if 
>>you give Larry Bird quicker legs and a higher vertical leap (by making him
>>a black person -- obvious right?), he wouldn't be that good by NBA standards?
>>
>>Yeah, right.
>>
>
>I refuse to name a better player amoung the three but your arguements about
>Bird really don't hold water.  He could not make the amazing athletic play
>but that does not mean his game suffered.   The one respect in which Bird
>and Magic exceed Jordon is in their effect on the game of Basketball in 
>general.  When they came into the the league the play was extremely one on 
>one oriented.  They brought the pass back into fashion.  Magic and Bird's 
>play is more imitated then any players in history.  Mainly because physically 
>people are more likely to make the plays that Magic and Bird did but can only 
>dream about making the plays Jordon makes.  (But this does not mean Jordon is 
>a better ball player, just a different type of ball player).  If you watch
>current players you can see Magic and Bird on the court even now that
>they are retired.
>
>Robert
>robert@landru.mtc.ti.com

Spell Jordan with an 'o' do you?  I think we've seen you on here once before.
Didn't you get run off the net a couple of months ago when you were spouting
some nonsense about 'our' sport???

Also, basketball isn't a proper noun, so why capitalize it?  What a bonehead.

I'd say *your* arguements about Bird don't hold water.  Ask how many people
think Bird is a good defender, or if Bird/Magic would try to score on a 
double-team situation...

Bird and Magic exceed in their effect on the game?  Sounds pretty shaky to
me.  Care to prove this some way?  I tend to hear that the league is looking
more towards Jordan/Pippen types than any other player.  I've played
ball in New Jersey, North Carolina, and Georgia, and most of the kids on the
playgrounds are trying looping shots, fancy dunks, reverse layups with a 
twist, etc...  A couple do the look-away thing, but not nearly as many.

BTW, you're comments on people being more likely to imitate Bird and Magic
than Jordan make little sense, although I'm not quite sure what the relevance
would be anyhow...

-- 
Andrew W. Markham (markham@bnr.ca)
Bell Northern Research, Inc.