From: hallam@zeus02.desy.de (Phill Hallam-Baker)
Subject: Re: theocratic states
Reply-To: Hallam@zeus02.desy.de
Organization: Deutsches Elektronen Synchrotron, Experiment ZEUS bei HERA
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 00:31:16 GMT

In article <1gfn4eINNqa4@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark
Ira Kaufman) writes:
|>Wayne McGuire writes...

|>#To: Goof
|>#
|>#  > 1. When did Israel object to the US becoming a Christian
|>#  > theocratic state?
|>#
|>#The organized American Jewish community is the most vociferous
|>#critic of any hint that the U.S. might be or become or ever was a
|>#Christian state, politically or culturally. When a U.S. governor
|>#(Fordice of Mississippi?) recent remarked, with simple accuracy,
|>#that the U.S. was predominantly a Christian nation culturally and
|>#historically, the loudest howls of outrage came from Jewish
|>#rabbis (according to The New York Times).
|>
|>   I know the hate-filled lump of matter that you call your brain 
|>   may not be able to grasp this, but American Jews are AMERICAN.
|>   They aren't Israeli.  Israelis are Israeli.  American Jews are
|>   Americans.  If this is confusing to you, maybe you could get a
|>   normal six-year-old kid of explain it to you.

A large number of the Christian Americans are also appauled by the thought of
the US becomming a Christian State. The problem being that the Pat Robertsons et
al would be the ones that enforced their minority view of Christian teaching
upon the country, and upon other churches. 

Besides that the majority of Americans are not Christian or Jewish or Moslem,
most are atheist, agnostic or couch potatoees.

Protesting against America becoming a Christian nation is the American way. From
George Washington onwards. The narrow minded bigots who sailed across in the
Mayflower had other views and in fact went to america to practice religious
intollerance rather than for religious freedom. One of the first things they did
upon arrival was to set up a series of laws to oppress the Quakers and there
were a large number of statutes forbiding Quakers to enter certain towns on pain
of death.


|>#This is an example of the moral and conceptual schizophrenia of
|>#so many Jews who are passionate about promoting policies in the
|>#diaspora which are not at all honored in Israel. I.F. Stone read
|>#these folks well.
|>#
|>#Approximately 2 to 3% of Israel's population is Christian, which
|>#is equivalent to the Jewish population in the U.S. Imagine if
|>#they began protesting with vigor, and on fundamental democratic
|>#grounds, any offenses to their religious sensibilities by the
|>#Israeli government.
|>
|>   They have every right to do so.  They are Israeli citizens.

Not quite every right, there is always the belt and braces clause that forbids a
party from proposing to change the constitution to remove the bit about Israel
being a Jewish state. Ineffectual although this clause would be if there was
ever a majority which wanted to change it, it does nevertheless serve as a
source of difficulty.

But then again considering the skillful editin that has been necessary to raise
the founders of the USA to their present mythical/demi-god status it is hardly
surprizing that close examination of the statutes of Israel should show that
many of the founders had feet of clay.

|>#If the Christian majority in the U.S. did decide to change the
|>#rules, and institute a Christian state religion and issue special
|>#identity cards to Jews, they could point to the example of
|>#Israel--"the light unto the nations"--for a model of a righteous
|>#way to run a society. American Jews who enthusiastically support
|>#Israel could hardly object on conceptual or moral grounds. No
|>#doubt the Christian "rabbis" in the new state would offer Jews
|>#who did object the option of moving to Israel, where, according
|>#to Zionist and Orthodox Jewish doctrine, they belong anyway.
|>
|>    This isn't Israel.  This is America.  You're comparing apples 
|>    and oranges.  Israel is a JEWISH homeland.  It was founded on
|>    the land in which there has been a continuous Jewish presence
|>    since millenia before Mohammad or Jesus.  It is a place whose
|>    name is mentioned in the most sacred prayers in Judaism.  The
|>    State of Israel was reborn so Jews would have a homeland.  It
|>    is apparent that when Americans like Wayne McGuire do not see
|>    that American Jews are American, it is more proof of why Jews
|>    need their own homeland.

Wayne's argument is flawed but not for the above reasons. To argue that no
nation should be a national homeland produces all sorts of logical
inconsistencies. There is however a revulsion at the extent to which petty
nationalism such as is currently being exhibited in Bosnia by the Serbs causes
untold misery and suffering. This dichotemy can in my view only be resolved by
denying the supremacy of the nation state and affirming that the individual owes
no duty to submit to the cultural or ethnic predjudices of society.

Israel is in a part of the world where there are still a large number of tyrants
such as in Kewait and Saudi who maintain control by hypocritical application of
religious codes they do not beleive in. The USA was founded upon a principle of
federal anarchy and the minimisation of the effectiveness of government. It is
clear that the fight in Israel is to progress and in the USA not to regress.


|>#If you have any doubts, I strongly support the separation of
|>#church and state. With each passing year my awe increases for the
|>#authors of the U.S. Constitution and Federalist Papers, and the
|>#Anglo-Saxon libertarian genius which they expressed. They came up
|>#with a blueprint for a liveable society for the future. 
|>
|>    If you REALLY believe this, how come you can't tell that Jews
|>    who were born in America, and live in America, are Americans?

Not quite, they were heavily influenced by a number of French thinkers who were
no more Anglo Saxon than Chairman Mao.


|>#                    If one's nationalist passions are running high,
|>#the sensible thing to do is to take up residence on the hallowed
|>#turf.
|>
|>    I'm glad that you're not smart enough to have not posted this
|>    statement.  It is more revealing about your feelings than any
|>    analysis I could make.

I think that Mark may be mistaken about Wayne, the question is not whether he
beleives that Jews are American citizens but whether he beleives that this
situation should be allowed to continue.

--

Phill Hallam-Baker
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast