HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris)
Subject: Re: MEQ #17: Ben-Gurion on Israeli expansi
Reply-To: a.Faris@trl.oz.au 
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne,Australia
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 02:17:51 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.142646.8797@synapse.bms.com>, henry@bms.com (Henry Mednikoff) writes:
||> 
|> I just want to see You living, let us say.. in Kiriat Shmona or in Rosh-Ha-Nikra with no buffer zone on the norhtern border of Israel...
|> The safety of your children is at stake, your Real Estate investment is at stake..etc.
|> It is easy to give advice when you are not an involved party.
|> 
|> Hank.
|> 

Only if you were near by so that I can play for you some tunes on my Qanoon to 
make the setting really sad. What will you say to those Palestinians, Syrians,
and Lebanese who lost their homes and land?.

A.Faris
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Sentencing in Jordan
Date: 17 Nov 92 07:23:43 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <1992Nov12.212436.21460@dazixco.ingr.com> naftaly@dazixco.ingr.com writes:
>>In article <4353@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU>, aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:
>
>>At least the peace talks will continue - despite how many
>>people are silenced, imprisoned, expelled, or murdered ...
>
>Can I assume from this that you are really not for peace between Israel and 
>Jordan?

Naftaly, my point was merely that not everyone is in favor of the
peace talks, and instead of continuing to impose such totalitarian 
policies in dealing with the situation (as I stated above - by 
silencing the voices of opposition through imprisonment, expulsion,
and murder), it does not change the course of politics in the M.E.

Is this acceptable in the eyes of Western 'democracy' or is it 
condoned simply because it is not in the best interests of those
involved?  Is this a just and fair way to ensure that the peace talks
will continue by promoting this violence (in Southern Lebanon) and
facism from the Arab governments (whom have a stake in the talks by
fully agreeing to Israel's conditions)?

There will always be political unrest in the region because the majority
of people do not adopt this and will fight until their rights and voices
are heard.  What will the New World Policy be in view of the Middle East
after the end of these talks?  More oppression?  More reports on torture
and human rights violations by humanitarian groups?  And the scariest
part of the whole thing is, who is going to protect us?
 
Naftaly, you should focus more on these points rather than try to
analyze what I wrote as a means of judging me on the basis that I do
not fall into popular support or opinion.

Anisa
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Tiaf and Syrian withdrawl
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 16:52:41 GMT

I saw this in todays Israeline:

Syria Postpones Partial Withdrawal from Lebanon, Citing Problems
with Division of Authority There Between Christians and Moslems

Today's AL HAMISHMAR reports that Syria postponed the partial
withdrawal of its armed forces from Lebanon indefinitely. It
declared that a precondition to such a withdrawal is the repeal of
the division of authority in the Lebanese government along
religious lines. This interpretation of the Taif agreement
completely contradicts the interpretation given by the U.S.
Syria's Deputy President said in a Radio Monte Carlo interview on
Monday that the division of main governmetn roles in Lebanon
between Christians and Moslems is what brought about the civil war
in Lebanon. "The Syrian presence," said the Syrian Deputy
President, "is a guarantee to peace."

----------

Does anyone have details on why (other than they enjoy dominating
smaller, weaker countries) Syria is staying, and what reasons they are
announcing for it?

Adam


Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all because of elections.  How true that is.
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Malik Shabazz, Islam and Anti-Semitism...
Date: 19 Nov 92 06:05:53 GMT
Organization: USC/Information Sciences Institute
In-reply-to: dzk@cs.brown.edu's message of 16 Nov 92 14:25:53 GMT

In article <1992Nov16.142553.15082@cs.brown.edu> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
>
> lkk@panix.com (Larry Kolodney) writes:
>
> #Moreover, Israel has no civil rights legislation, and no bill of
> #rights.  
>
> True, unfortunately. However, such a bill is in preparation.

Bills like this have been "in preperation" for decades now.  One of the
central reasons that these bills always die is that while no
self-respecting democracy today can have a law concerning civil
liberties that does not declare that all citizens have equal rights,
Israel is unwilling to have such a blanket declaration on its lawbooks.

I used to have a copy of a bill of this kind that was being considered
in the mid-1970s.  Every general statement of the form "everybody is
equal" was succeeded by the statement "except when existing legislation
says otherwise" (imprecise translation, but you get the gist of it).  It
was a joke.

> The declaration of independance does include something like a bill of
> rights, but I agree it is not a good enough substitute.

The Israeli declaration of independece does not really include much in
the way of a statement of civil rights.  It states that all citizens of
the state will treated equally without regard to sex, religion, race,
and a few other characteristics which I don't recall right now.  The
declaration does not have the force of law, but in recent years the
Israeli Supreme Court (noting the absence of any law guaranteeing
freedoms and rights) has used it to infer some of the rights typically
associated with a democratic state, e.g., the freedom to demonstrate,
and more.  One glaring ommission from the declaration, and certainly not
an unintended oversight, is any reference to equality irrespective of
*nationality* (le'om).  That would appear to be the matter under
discussion here.
--
Yigal Arens
USC/ISI                                                TV made me do it!
arens@isi.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Bedouins
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 20:25:44 GMT

marwang@caip.rutgers.edu (Marwan Gharaybeh) writes:

# Let me correct both of you ... Bedwins usually live in the deserts,
# and usually they do not have farming as their main buissiness. You
# would rarely find bedwins in the fertile lands of north galleli,
# though you might probably find them in southern palestine like the
# Negev desert (before the nuclear boms were installed there).

I guess the news about the "nuclear boms" haven't reached all
the Bedouins in the Negev. Quite a few of them live there; as
a matter of fact, more and more are moving to concrete houses and
permanent neighbourhoods. For instance, not far from where I used
to live (near to Beer-Sheba) there are two Bedouin settlements,
Tel-Sheva and Rahat. Some of the residents were students at the
nearby Ben-Gurion University (although I can't give an accurate
number).

It is true that they do not grow a lot of crops (not too much will
grow at that area). Their main economic gain comes from stock
animals, like sheeps, goats and camels. However, more and more
are adopting other professions.

Once, my father, brother and me were invited to a "hafla" (lunch
party) at a nearby Bedouin place. It was a lot of fun. They are
very hospitable people.


-Danny Keren.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: 1967 war again (was: Re: Rebel attack....)
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 21:54:25 GMT

In article <1992Nov9.010543.1657@nysernet.org> astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:

>There's a significant difference between Myths & Facts and PLO
>propaganda.  While both are biased, the factual material in Myths &
>Facts is reliable, while anti-Israel propaganda in general pays little
>attention to the truth.  (Remember how the anti-Israel propaganda in
>1982 had every resident of Beirut killed several times over?)

Daily examples of this same imbalance is visible here on t.p.m.
PLO supporters regularly post the wildest accusations, figures and 
resultant conclusions.  Anyone who has read t.p.m. for any length 
of time finds plenty of it.

Just like Americans are used to local advertising ploys and usually 
don't fall for them while foreigners do (e.g. "Buy foo and get bar
absolutely FREE!"), Arabs are used to their own customary exaggeration
and don't fall for it, while outsiders do.  In both cases, the
outsiders get burned a few times and then learn to adjust things so as
to keep from getting into trouble again.

(On second thought, with Iran becoming the next Middle-Eastern nuclear
threat and Syria still Bush's friend in the M.E., perhaps some
foreigners still don't get it...)

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com              10 years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed President.
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shahzaadee)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Taif and Syrian withdrawal
Date: 23 Nov 92 02:48:42 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

Alan:

To add to the humor, they also have an apparent desire to resist the
Israeli terrorists who have destroyed their country and who's attacks on
Palestinian civilians are the only reason Israel ever came in to begin with.

You never give up on these attacks yourself, do you?

Anisa
From: dan@jonas.berkeley.edu (dan graves)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Jonathan Pollard...
Date: 23 Nov 1992 00:47:31 GMT
Organization: University of California Berkeley
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: jonas.berkeley.edu

In article <By4urF.1vn@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
|> 
|> There is a difference between working against the U.S. for the benefit of
|> Israel and protecting Israel by passing information which is crucial to her
|> and not hurtful to the U.S.  Pollard felt that this information, which related
|> to Iraq's chemical weapon program, was crucial to Israel - he simply acted his
|> consciounse as both a good American and a good Jew.
|> 
|> Ed.

The decision was not his to make.  If his conscience is clear because
he felt he did the right thing, this does nothing to change the fact
that he commited treason and compromised the security of the United 
States.  As to his punishment: in sensible countries, traitors
are executed.

dan
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Kahan Commission
Date: 15 Nov 1992 17:24:17 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


   I would like to ask Brendan McKay how this massacre in the two
refugee camps could have been predicted.  Are you saying that the
Israelis ordered them into the camps, believing that these people
would start slaughtering men, women, and children?  That seems to
be what you are implying.  Are you saying that Sharon anticipated
these massacres?  On what do you base such an assumption?
   And with regard to the Time magazine lawsuit, they claimed Mr.
Sharon ordered the attacks, and knew that they were taking place.
It was proven in court that Time magazine lied.  By this, I mean
they printed false claims about Mr. Sharon, and it was proven in
court that Time KNEW their claims were false.
   And as far as my knowledge of what goes on in the mideast, it
will stack up against your puny pile of selected data.  Your are
either ignorant of the whole picture, or you know more than what
you choose to post, but you are so biased, that your selectivity
as made you a liar.  
   I repeat that there is more than enough on Sharon to show him
as the creep that he is.  So why do truth a disservice, by doing
what you do?  You, Mr. McKay, are a bigot.  You are incapable of
being objective about Israel, or Jews.
-- 
   "One can be a racist.  Or one can be a human being.  But one
may not be both."
                                 - Rabbi Abraham Joshua heschel

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: naftaly@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer)
Subject: Re: Violent anti-Israeli flame!!!!!!
Reply-To: naftaly@dazixco.ingr.com
Organization: Dazix
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 16:51:50 GMT


In article <28275@castle.ed.ac.uk>, jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson) writes:
>
>        JERUSALEM (UPI) -- Israel's leading university named a new science
>center Monday after former British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, who
>urged the nation's researchers to ``unlock the secrets of the universe.''
>
>
>Speaks for itself, really.
>
>

>===Jeremy Henderson===jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk=          

Excuse my ignorance,  but Haaaaaaaaaaaaa ???????????????????

----

Naftaly Stramer (303)581-2370, FAX (303)581-9972    Intergraph Corporation
Internet: naftaly@dazixco.ingr.com                  Electronics Division    
UUCP: ..uunet!ingr!dazixco!naftaly  	            5101 Spine Road
Please excuse my English			    Boulder, CO 80301
From: marwang@caip.rutgers.edu (Marwan Gharaybeh)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Rebel attack kills 5 Israeli soldiers, wounds 5 more
Date: 22 Nov 92 08:56:04 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

horen@netcom.com (Jonathan B. Horen -- [408] 736-3923) writes:

>In article <Nov.13.14.52.22.1992.8862@caip.rutgers.edu> (Marwan ) writes:
	
>I think you misunderstood Shai's comment. That is, it is villagers --
>and not children. Children, unfortunately, are the ones who have be
>used (and abused) in these kind of terrorist games.

Terrosist ???  Games ???? ... What is your definition of terrorism ?!!!
I do not know too much about international law but I think that 
a hero fighting  invaders to his own country is definetly NOT A 
TERRORIST. When France was occupied by Nazi germany, the Nazis
counted the inner resistance as terrorists and "saboutagists". The
question is, How can those freedom fighters be counted within your list
of TERRORISTS please please please please tell me how ?!!!!!

Or maybe ... Lebanon is another part of israel that its god have

--Marwan
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: The Messiah of Transfer
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 15:18:23 GMT

The hailing of the Lubavitcher as the Messiah is completely rejected
by the majority of religious Jews and by the religious establishment
in Israel and abroad. Most people see it as a farce.

Same for Ba-Gad, who belongs to a small party (3 members). 

-Danny Keren.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Subject: Re: Taif and Syrian withdrawal
Summary: Another piece of ignorance
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 08:22:30 GMT

In article <1epoh6INN5ps@manuel.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:

# In article 10417@nysernet.org, astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:
 
# >To add to the humor, they also have no apparent desire to resist the
# >Arab terrorists who have destroyed their country and whos attacks on
# >Israeli civilians are the only reason Israel ever came in to begin with.
 
# Speaking of humour, nearly ten years after the Israeli principals 
# publically acknowledged the real purpose behind the 1982 invasion,
# some brave souls are still stoically holding on to the original
# public pronouncements.  Unbelievable, but true.
 
# I'm running short of time.  Practically any book on the 1982 war will
# set you straight on why Israel did it.  Try Rabinovich, Schiff, etc..

	Brendam, you can say anything you want about "humor" or
"unbelievable".  However, if you talk to the victims of those attacks
you will be forced to come to the conclusion that either the original
pronouncements were at least the major reason behind the invasion, or
Israeli politicians were naive in not taking them into account (which
means that Likud would have been voted out of office specifically for
not addressing the reasons behind the original pronouncements had
there not been an invasion for any reason).
--
	There are three types of people in the world.  Those that are good
at math and those that are not.

makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu
From: jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Violent anti-Israeli flame!!!!!!
Date: 17 Nov 92 13:54:46 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University


        JERUSALEM (UPI) -- Israel's leading university named a new science
center Monday after former British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, who
urged the nation's researchers to ``unlock the secrets of the universe.''


Speaks for itself, really.











-- 
===Jeremy Henderson===jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk=          

"I have to scan these posts in case Jeremy includes some line
out of context in his .sig" - FriendOfFernandoKhomeini.
From: naftaly@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer)
Subject: Syria to stay in Lebanon
Reply-To: naftaly@dazixco.ingr.com
Organization: Dazix
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 18:02:43 GMT



From ISraeline 11/18

Syria Postpones Partial Withdrawal from Lebanon, Citing Problems
with Division of Authority There Between Christians and Moslems
 
Today's AL HAMISHMAR reports that Syria postponed the partial
withdrawal of its armed forces from Lebanon indefinitely. It
declared that a precondition to such a withdrawal is the repeal of
the division of authority in the Lebanese government along 
religious lines. This interpretation of the Taif agreement
completely contradicts the interpretation given by the U.S. 
Syria's Deputy President said in a Radio Monte Carlo interview on
Monday that the division of main governmetn roles in Lebanon
between Christians and Moslems is what brought about the civil war
in Lebanon. "The Syrian presence," said the Syrian Deputy
President, "is a guarantee to peace."


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman)
Subject: Re: Sentencing in Jordan
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 01:22:11 GMT

In article <Nov.22.03.32.33.1992.10668@caip.rutgers.edu> marwang@caip.rutgers.edu (Marwan Gharaybeh) writes:
>perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
>
>>Israel is very, very far from totalitarian - as I think we both know.
>
>Yes to its own people ... However, Israel is Natzi germani for
>the real owners of the land. It confiscates the lands, it butshers
>6 year olds and suppresses the right of the "right" owners of the
>land to even have any control over their destiney ... That is your
>
>--Marwan

The comparison to Nazi Germany is false, repugnant and insulting.  Israel
is the Jewish homeland.  Not just since 1948, but through thousands of
years of history.

-- 
"How sad to see/A model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport
A battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -Tim Rice,"Chess"
     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: ring@inf.fu-berlin.de (Rod J. Ring)
Subject: Re: MEQ #23: Mufti meets Fuehrer [NEW]
Organization: Free University of Berlin, Germany, Computer Science
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 08:00:35 GMT

Just let me add a little remark as to the translation problem:

The German word "Vernichtung" clearly means "total destruction".
"Judentum" in German has two meanings:
a) Judaism as a religious, cultural and historical phenomenon,
b) Jewry (and in this context, neither the orthodox nor any other
   interpretation of Judaism defined who was Jewish, but the Nazis
   did).
The Nazis meant the complete destruction/annihilation of European
Jewry, but the *ideological* aim they wanted to achieve by this
was to wipe out Judaism all together.

There are no words to really express the unbelievable cruelty in
this.

-- 
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Rod J. Ring				If you can take it to water,
Institut fuer Informatik		and force it to drink,
Freie Universitaet Berlin, FRG		it isn't a horse.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: MEQ #17: Ben-Gurion on Israeli expansi
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 00:53:52 GMT

faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris) writes:

>In article <1992Nov16.172820.16188@dazixco.ingr.com>, naftaly@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer) writes:
>|> 
>|> Israel occupied the Golan Hieghts only after Syria joined Egypt in a war against
>|> Israel in 1967. 
>|> 
>|> 
> Israel wanted that war so badly that it would have invaded Syria regardless.
> Fortunately for Israel, you had people like Golda Meyer and Moshe Dyan who
> were patient and allow the Arabs to make a mistake.

Syria had been shelling Israel from the Golan for years - an invasion of Syria
was LONG overdue.

> 
> Israel invaded Lebanon in 82 because it wanted south Lebanon and could not
> wait for another war since the Arabs became smarter and avoided conflicts
> at all cost.

Wanted South Lebanon?  For what?  All of it's lovely inhabitants with shoulder
launched rockets?  If Israel wanted to keep S. Lebanon you would see lots of
little settlements popping up there.  As there are not and Israel has never
expressed an interest in keeping it, I think that statement is quite false. 
If you don't call terrorist attacks across the border from Lebanon and 
katyusha attacks on Northern Israel, I don't know what you're thinking.

> 
> A.Faris

Ed.
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Hezbollah
Date: 17 Nov 1992 08:13:32 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
Distribution: world
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.23.70

In article 1428@tdat.teradata.COM, jcg@teradata.com (Jonathan Gingerich) writes:
>In article <1dgq2lINN2r6@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:
>>...
>>Did Sharon order this massacre to take place?

>TIME's correspondant was told by his (anonymous) source a question about
>"revenge" (for the slaying of Bashir(?) Gemeyal) was raised by militiaman
>at the pre-assault meeting and that Sharon deliberately shrugged his shoulders.

More precisely, Time claimed that the secret Appendix B of the Kahan
Commission report confirmed that "Sharon also reportedly discussed with
the Gemayels the need for the Phalangists to take revenge for the
assassination of Bashir, but the details of the conversation are
not known".

Brendan.


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast