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Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 15:33:01 EST
From:         "KATHLEEN DORAN-NORTON" <KMDN@UORVM.BITNET>
Subject:      ALUMNI/DEVELOPMENT SOFTWARE

We've just gone through an RPF process for an alumni affairs database. We have
a mainframe ADABAS system, but Alumni Affairs has a lot of local managment iss
ues separate from the central needs, and wanted a flexible system on a office-b
ased PC NOVELL LAN. Right now it's a toss-up between Advocate software from App
lication Systems Group, and a custom-built FoxPro system which looks very appea
ling (Version2.0 has lots of nice features). Alumni staff liked Raiser'sEdge by
 BlackBaud because they could "see" immediately how it would work. It uses much
 older technology, and takes some shortcuts in good database design. It might w
ork well for a small office with a less complex operation though, where you cou
ld get away with short-cuts in design and all the staff would know about it. Ad
vocate is much more flexible and powerful in design, but as a result staff woul
d have to invest in detailed information needs analysis. It could handle a more
 complex organization though.
 Kathleen Doran-Norton, Enrollment Managemnt Systems and Research
University of Rochester
KMDN@UORVM
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Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 15:04:25 CDT
From:         Margaret Brickhaus <A215CCR@SEMOVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Point of Sale Terminals

Greetings,

Cashiers for the Bursar's office on our campus are currently using
IBM 3178 Terminals and 3287 Printers to process payments.  We are
interested in upgrading the equipment to IBM 4684 Point of Sale (POS)
Terminals.

So far, we have been unable to locate a bursar's office using this
equipment.  We would like to hear from a campus which is using IBM's
POS equipment in their bursar's area.  In particular, we are interested
in systems attached to IBM mainframes using 3270 emulation cards
installed in the POS terminals.

If you wouldn't mind discussing your experiences, please send a note
and someone will be in touch with you.

Thanks for your help.

   ------------------------------------------------------------------
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Organization: University of Tennessee at Chattanooga
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.cumrec-l
Date:         Wed, 9 Sep 1992 08:30:07 EDT
From:         Jeffrey R Kell <JEFF@UTCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Degree Audit Software

On Tue, 8 Sep 1992 16:34:11 EDT Jack Southard said:
>In 1983 when we started to develop the original Miami University degree audit
>system - we didn't know where that would take us.  But 101 schools later (and
>many many many enhancements) I believe we found that our original design model
>did have enough flexibility for DARS to process some of the most complex
>requirements found in the US or Canada.

OK, decide for yourself.  This is a subset of our BA Psychology requirements
in effect from (at least) 1979 until 1988:

     One course from two of the following:
     1)  Psychology 311, 312, 314
     2)  Psychology 308, 331, 448
     3)  Psychology 406, 407, 484
     Both courses from one of the following:
     1)  Psychology 331, 431
     2)  Psychology 448, 410
     3)  Psychology 221, 421
     4)  Psychology 311, 411

     The same course may not be used to fulfill two different requirements.

Note that 311, 331, and 448 appear in both sections, and the qualification
that the course can only apply to one requirement almost puts this example
in the realm of non-deterministic theory (it was solved by permutating the
completed credits and weighing each arrangement).

Other examples would include certain majors we have which do not have a
clearly-defined concentration -- you must infer the concentration from the
coursework they have taken.  The best example here is Music, where they must
have a specified number of hours ensemble and recital participation with a
given instrument, and different instruments have different course numbers.

Let me clarify my position somewhat; I'm not saying there isn't a package
available that will do the job, but rather that I don't think there is one
which will do 100% of possible cases (we can't even do that manually, else
why is there a petitions committee?).  With packaged software you are limited
to the (supposedly) finite set of options it offers; with the "coded program
exit" approach you at least have the possibility of attacking most any new
scenario without having to wait for your vendor to address your needs.

<Jeff>
******************************
* Peer's Law:  The solution to a problem changes the nature
*              of the problem.
******************************
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| Admin Computing, 117 Hunter Hall  | Bitnet:  JEFF@UTCVM.BITNET        |
| Univ of Tennessee at Chattanooga  | Internet: jeff@utcvm.utc.edu      |
| Chattanooga, TN  37403-2598       |   or jeff_kell@admin.utc.edu      |
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Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 08:19:35 EDT
From:         "Mark A. Olson" <mao@CUNIXF.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject:      Peer's Law...

Jeff and Jack have been getting at (or around) some key issues that
speak to matters beyond degree audit, for certain, but it's friday and
I think I'll just add a response to Jeff's Peer's Law citation....

Peer's Law was stated as: "The solution to the problem changes the
nature of the problem"

A Law I've often cited that seems to apply here, though I don't know
the origin:  "When the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem
starts to look like a nail."...

Oh, we're going to be implementing AMS's Degree Audit System (DAS)
which is a derivative of Miami's DARS....  have a good weekend.

Mark Olson
Columbia University in the City of New York
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Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 20:15:00 CDT
From:         S1MBM@ISUVAX.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Byatt babble, becoming boring, n this, people

This thread has become a *major* snore.

mbmcdonald
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Date:         Wed, 9 Sep 1992 13:10:46 BST
From:         David Ayre <ayre@SFU.CA>
Subject:      RE : Poetry/Prose ?
              92 1:02 pm

  It seems to me that i've heard this debate many times and it
never seems to get resolved, and i believe never can.  Although
i still do enjoy hearing discussions on the differences between
each, for it gives me a deeper understanding of both.  I read
this quote from the composer Luciano Berio and modified it
a bit...

   Poetry is everything that one reads/listens to, with the intention
of reading/listening to poetry.

HIs quote was virtually the same but regarding music instead of poetry.

p.s.  I loved franks postings, they are a breath of fresh air!

David Ayre
Vancouver B.C.
INTERNET:  ayre@sfu.ca
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Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 08:05:12 EDT
From:         Tim Johnson <PH408014@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Babble about Byatt's book.

>I don't much care about  anyone's love life but my own.
>But I Think it very rash to assume that Newton et al.
>lovelife have less relevance to their work than
> a poet's .. Isn't that presuming a lot?

  Perhaps it is presuming a lot.  I'll take it
all back if you can explain to me how understanding
Newton's love life will give you insight into
Classical Mechanics or Calculus.

                                -Tim
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Date:         Wed, 9 Sep 1992 13:02:37 -0400
From:         IAN YORK <YORK@MCMASTER.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Graham Greene, modern poetry

"All the dead voices.
They make a noise like wings.
Like leaves.
Like sand.
Like leaves.

They all speak at once.
Each one to itself.

Rather they whisper.
They rustle
They murmer. Th
They rustle.

What do they say?
They talk about their lives.
To have lived is not enough for them.
They have to talk about it.
To be dead is not enough for them.
It is not sufficient.

They make a noise like feathers.
Like leaves.
Like ashes.
Like leaves."
        -Samuel Beckett (_Waiting for Godot_)

        Prose or poetry?  (All I have done is take out the stage directions)

        Ian
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Date:         Sat, 5 Sep 1992 02:20:00 CDT
From:         S1MBM@ISUVAX.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Graham Greene, modern poetry

Lana, thanks for the interesting paraphrase of Alastair Fowler.  I don't
know Shapiro's work at all, and so don't know that this "
"problem" is relevant to him, but it seemed to me that Millie was talking
not just about "weird poetic diction" (or the absence thereof), but the
current weakening of *poetic syntax*, a weakening characterized by poetry
which can be written out as prose and *lose nothing in the process*, for
it has nothing to offer in respect to innovative or difficult syntax.

Millie, is this fair to your argument?  I know that my own assertion lacks
a supporting example, and will try to find something that will illustrate
my point.

Thanks for the non-Byatt discussion!  (a smiley face, if i dared to use one,
would appear here)

michael bruce mcdonald
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Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 15:32:00 PDT
From:         Tim Bowden <tcbowden@CLOVIS.FELTON.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: Carson McCullers (was boring -)
Comments: To: LITERARY@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

I'm really mucking up the works here.  I'm getting just
too free with the [R] response.

I'm embarrassed to admit Flannery O'Conner is indeed the
author I misidentified as Carson McCullers.  I also am
the one who grundged the Subject line up there to make
it sound like Carson was boring, which she nearly
invariably isn't.  It was an allusion to the Byatt
thread, which someone had labeled as boring and placed
that in the title.

I'm too ashamed to post any more.  I'm gonna retreat to
the library;  that's quite enough muckups for one day...

-timmie

--- Echodor 3.11
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Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 16:49:47 EST
From:         Graham Wolff Christian <GRAHAM@HARVARDA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Graham Greene, modern poetry

You might wish to look into Elizabeth Bishop's prose-poems in _Geography III_
for other examples of excellence in the form in English. Many prose writers, by
the way, consider the unwittingly intrusive poems in their prose to be some-
thing of an albatross. When you think your prose sounds especially high, fine,
and noble, chances are quite good that its rhythm is ti-tum,ti-tum,ti-tum &c.
See the soliloquies of the principals in _Moby-Dick_, written for the most part
in run-on blank verse, which Melville evidently thought very fine indeed (or he
would have removed them)--they may be among the book's weakest chapters.
Colette said that when alexandrines (which haunt French writers, I expect, as
iambic pentameter does English and American writers) crept into her prose, she
cut them out without mercy. This is quite a different matter, I realize, from
V. Woolf's highly distilled images & variable rhythms.
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Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1992 01:57:00 CDT
From:         S1MBM@ISUVAX.BITNET
Subject:      Re: O'Connor

Michael McColl, it's nice to see a post from you; I always enjoy reading
your thoughts.

I quite agree that simply to laugh at Joy/Hulga is to miss the compassion
and sense of inevitability in "Good Country People"; yes, her hubris could
be said to bring the story's events down upon her, but is she so wrong to
welcome the salesman as something fresh in her eminently stagnant world?
And when we laugh at her, aren't we putting ourselves in the position of
the salesman, ultimately?  And what *joy* is finally is as he goes hulking
off alone?

michael bmcd
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Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 22:32:17 EST
From:         Entropy Warrior <AUSBROOK@UCS.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject:      RE: both sound dumb

>Dear Tim and Melanie,
>I can't tell which of you is dumber because both your names have
>an "m" in them.

ANd because there is a b in both.

-Mka
From: VIAEM105@SIVM.BITNET (Lana Brown, VIARC, IRD)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.literary
Subject: Re: Graham Greene, modern poetry
Date: 8 Sep 92 18:07:56 GMT
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From:    Lana Brown, VIARC, IRD
Yes, I agree that the best poetry has rythms or at least sounds that support
the conceit or just the mood, kind of like strong bones. Still, I'm not sure
that a poem HAS to be that way. Someone mentioned cummings. He is well known
for the only successful Eng versions of that French hybrid form, the prose poem
(which I admittedly know little about). What about that? Is it still poetry or
not? In general, I find genre groupings very useful, but I don't think that
they are carved in stone. Maybe if we could think of a poem which can be
written out as prose and STILL isn't bad poetry, it would help the devil's
advocate. We could look in Marrianne Moore...I think I read someplace that she
wrote her poems out in prose form first, then transcribed to verse. Didn't
some big 17th-century fellow do the same thing, before putting his verse into
heroic couplets? Jonson? (Jeez, don't quote me on this, especially to any of
my profs.)
     Maybe we should consider prose that scans, too. Is it poetic, but not
poetry, with the same type of gradation in meaning that rhetoric/rhetorical
might have?
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Date:         Sat, 12 Sep 1992 12:05:21 -0400
From:         IAN YORK <YORK@MCMASTER.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Carson McCullers (was boring -)

well, Timmie, if it makes you feel any better, I've been sitting here for
five minutes trying to remember the names of the F O'C stories I've read.
There was Everything That Rises Must Converge (which is also, by the way,
the name of a song by Shriekback: coincidence? -I think not) and 2 others
in a collection.  I can sort of remember the plots but I can't put them
with titles.  I do remember being overwhelmed by the stories - both plot
and writing.  The first was about a young man reared by his fundamentalist
grandfather, going to live with his atheist father: a pedestrian descrip-
tion of a deeply unsettling story with tremendous mythic resonance.  The
next was about a man without any friends who, seeing how popular the man
in the gorilla suit was, took the suit: I think the last image was of this
pathetic and lonely misfit disappearing into the woods in the gorilla suit.
Again remarkably affecting and unsettling. The other may have been about
the person with the revelation.  Will someone help me out with titles?
        All the stories seemed to have this vivid overlay of images which
weren't directly connected to the plot, but which provided the unnerving
aura about them.  Like watching a movie through a thick curtain of cob-
webs and Spanish moss.
        WP Kinsella was impressed enough by O'Connor to make her the centre
of a short story ("Red Wolf, Red Wolf" [O'Connor suffered from Lupus, is
the connection there]) - the character in the gorilla suuit finds and visits
O'Connor herself.  Kinsella isn't nearly as good a writer as O'Connor
(or Richard Brautigan, to whom he dedicated his collection of short-short
stories, "The Alligator Report") but the idea was interesting. . .
        Ian
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Date:         Wed, 9 Sep 1992 13:17:38 BST
From:         David Ayre <ayre@SFU.CA>
Subject:      Re: modern poetry
              9, 92 12:55 pm

IN John(sorry i missed the last name) he pointed out some of the
modernist poetry one could look into, Ashbury, Stein and Williams.

I believe all of the texts he mentions by these authors are discussed
in MARJORIE PERLOFFS BOOK but i forget the title.  She's got a whole
bunch of books on modernist/postmodernist writers/ painters.  In
the book i'm thinking of, ah now i remember(no i don't, something to
do with INDETERMINANCY, that was definately in the title.) but

anyway whe goes from stein to cage, to williams to rimbaud and talks
about their INDETERMINATe poetics, a shying away, exploding away from
a solid center.  she also, with stein, goes into talking about
Tender BUttons and explaining it though some of the cubist painters
ideas on cubism.  its a great book.  sorry for all the vague details...


David AYre
Vancouver B.C.
INTERNET ayre@sfu.ca
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Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 14:26:47 EST
From:         Graham Wolff Christian <GRAHAM@HARVARDA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Carson McCullers (was boring -)
              10 Sep 1992 07:06:10 PDT from <LITERARY@CLOVIS.FELTON.CA.US>

Pardon me, but "A Good Man Is Hard to Find" is by Flannery O'Connor, NOT
Carson McCullers. McCullers & O'Connor both died rather young. The story title
you're looking for, I believe, is "A Stone, A Tree, A Cloud"-by McCullers indee
d.
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Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1992 10:28:01 CDT
From:         Steven Harris <SPAM@TAMVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Carson McCullers (was boring -)

Re: The Rocking Horse Winner

Strange as it may seem, this story is by D.H. Lawrence rather than Maugham.
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Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 21:09:00 CDT
From:         S1MBM@ISUVAX.BITNET
Subject:      Re: McCullers

Tom, I too was much more taken with *Reflections* than with *Heart*, for
some reason too far gone to account for.  Has anyone seen the Vanessa
Redgrave/Merchant-Ivory production of *Sad Cafe*?  Truly weirdly
extraordinary stuff!

mbmcd
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Date:         Wed, 9 Sep 1992 13:50:57 EDT
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From:         "Lana Brown, VIARC, IRD" <VIAEM105@SIVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Graham Greene, modern poetry

From:    Lana Brown, VIARC, IRD
Wow. That Beckett piece from _Godot_ is stunning. I remember having to force
myself through that play the first time I read it; ditto with his novels. But
if you read them in the frame of mind with which you'd normally tackle modern
poetry, they sparkle. Hearing Beckett's words read aloud amplifies the poetic
sense, too. A couple of weeks ago I saw a production of "Rockabye" and was
spellbound. I have never encountered another work of art in which a sort of
desolation is made so beautiful, and I attribute this beauty to it's poetry.
But again, plays are a form of oral literature. This example makes makes my
argument for the oral foundation of poetic diction stronger. It's very
listener-oriented.
    Speaking of listeners to poetry, the new _Smithsonian_ magazine has an
article on "slam" poetry competitions in a Chicago pub. According to the
article, a new beat-type bent is emerging in communities all over the country.
People go to certain bars and belt out "performance poetry" to get hurrahs or
boos from the audience. It reminds me of one time when a friend and I read
"Howl" on a metro bus full of city people. Some academics, the article says,
are sceptical, but there are others who think that it is helping to bring
poetry into the real lives of "real people." Has anyone been to a "poetry
slam?" It is apparently very different from a conventional poetry
reading...noisier, for one.
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Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 18:08:13 EDT
From:         Tom Frenkel <FRENKEL@CPMAIL-AM.CIS.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: poems in their prose
Comments: To: LITERARY@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

> Reply-to:      "Discussions about Literature" <LITERARY@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu>
> From:          Graham Wolff Christian <GRAHAM@HARVARDA.BITNET>
> Subject:       Re: Graham Greene, modern poetry

> thing of an albatross. When you think your prose sounds especially high, fine,
> and noble, chances are quite good that its rhythm is ti-tum,ti-tum,ti-tum &c.
> See the soliloquies of the principals in _Moby-Dick_, written for the most
 part
> in run-on blank verse, which Melville evidently thought very fine indeed (or
 he
> would have removed them)--they may be among the book's weakest chapters.

This brings to mind some of Dickens ... in _Christmas Carol_ I
remember Marley's ghost saying "I wear the chains I forged in life, I
made them link by link and yard by yard...."  Pretty good iambic
pattern there.                                  --Tom
-------
Tom Frenkel,    Columbia-Presbyterian Medical Center,
161 Ft. Washington Ave.,  DAP-1310,  New York, NY 10032-3784  USA
Internet:  FRENKEL@CPMAIL-AM.CIS.COLUMBIA.EDU
<<< Opinions expressed not necessarily those of my employer >>>
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