HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.makers
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 6 Nov 1992 16:50:48 GMT
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

In article <JAAPJL.92Nov6104225@cmb00.larc.nasa.gov> J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@larc.nasa.gov> writes:
>This has been settled, IMO.  One claim by Dave H that the RFDs and CFVs
>weren't posted to r.m.s has been proven false (in the case of the RFDs;
>I haven't seen the CFVs reposted).  The rest is unsubstantiated garbage.

Here are the headers from the two CFVs archived at ftp.uu.net:

From rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu Mon Sep 28 11:12:59 1992
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,rec.music.makers,rec.music.synth,alt.guitar,alt.guitar.bass,alt.guitar.tab
From: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Subject: CFV: rec.music.makers.* groups
Followup-To: poster
Keywords: music, makers, guitar, bass, drums, synth, tablature
Organization: Cardiothoracic Imaging Research Center
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 13:55:38 GMT

From rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu Tue Oct 13 12:51:11 1992
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups,rec.music.makers,rec.music.synth,alt.guitar,alt.guitar.bass,alt.guitar.tab
From: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Subject: 3rd CFV and VOTE ACK: rec.music.makers.* groups
Keywords: music, makers, guitar, bass, drums, synth, tablature
Followup-To: poster
Organization: Cardiothoracic Imaging Research Center
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 15:41:38 GMT
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by stupidity.
     We survived Jimmy Carter; we'll (probably) survive Bill Clinton.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: peter@ferranti.com (peter da silva)
Subject: Re: Why alt.folklore.computers should stay in alt (was: leave alt.folklore.computers alone, rmgroup comp.society.folklore)
Organization: Xenix Support, FICC
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 15:38:44 GMT

In article <1992Nov7.141555.7933@pollux.lu.se> magnus@thep.lu.se (Magnus Olsson) writes:
> No, it's not *more* misleading. IMHO alt.folklore.computers is also
> "*strongly* misleading"

Why? I think it's entirely appropriate to the readership and subject matter.
So would misc.folklore.computers be. I wouldn't want it in talk: talk is more
of a sewer than alt.

> I'm afraid I can't agree with you here. The group has a *very* strong
> factual content

Just because somethings factual doesn't mean it's (a) not folklore, or (b)
not appropriate for a folklore group. Folk medicine, for example, has
provided clues that have led to many valuable drugs.

It's not like the other folklore groups, which seem more like talk groups
to me, but that's irrelevant. The name is fine and the place is fine, and the
only place I could see it in the "big 7" is in misc.

> And I'm *very* dubious about whether a move to talk could be
> considered a promotion...

If talk.folklore.computers was created I, for one, would simply ignore it.
-- 
% Peter da Silva % 77487-5012 % +1 713 274 5180 %
true(<<VV$@\\$'&O 9$O%'$LT$&$"V6"$&$<4$?'&$ #I&&?$=$<<@)24 24 scale 3 21 moveto
{dup 36 eq{pop not}{dup 7 and 4 sub exch 56 and 8 div 4 sub 2 index{rlineto}{
rmoveto}ifelse}ifelse}forall stroke pop showpage % Har du kramat din varg idag?
From: mhkho@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg (Ho Hiang Kwee)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: soc.culture.singaporean
Date: 6 Nov 92 08:29:50 GMT
Organization: Nanyang Technological University - Singapore
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]


Man (mfltan@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg) wrote:
: >Mar Siew Cheong (escmar@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg) wrote:
: > Proposed Newsgroup's Name
: > =========================
: >   soc.culture.singaporean
: > 
:  Its high time to have a group for the Singaporeans. I support the idea.
:  However, I think the proposed newsgroups's name should be 
:  "soc.culture.singapore". Easier to call.
: 
: Man at The Equator!

Perhaps it was intentional - to make it clear to a certain vocal Malaysian
based in Singapore (NTU!) that the proposed newsgroup is for SINGAPOREANS!
;-)

-- 
Hiang-Kwee Ho                  ||    Internet: mhkho@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg 
School of Mech. & Prod. Eng.   ||    Bitnet:   mhkho@ntuvax
Nanyang Technological Univ.,   ||    Phone: +65 799-5499 
Nanyang Ave., Singapore 2263.  ||    Fax:   +65 791-1859
From: shirriff@sprite.berkeley.edu (Ken Shirriff)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 9 Nov 92 05:23:01 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: hijack.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Nov7.100007.5100@cs.hut.fi> killer@robin.cs.hut.fi (Kalle Kivimaa) writes:
>Well, that seems to depend upon David Lawrence's decision.  If he sends
>out a control message for r.m.m.synth, then you have no choice but to
>wait 6 months, hold a discussion period and then a vote.

I've seen several messages to the effect that a 6 month wait would be
required before r.m.m.synth could be renamed back to r.m.s.  Why would this
wait be necessary?  It certainly isn't on account of anything in the
guidelines.  Since nobody has ever voted on renaming r.m.m.s to r.m.s,
the six month delay in section 6 of "The Result" in the guidelines does
not apply.

Another interesting question is why do people keep quoting the guidelines
as if they are relevant to the renaming of r.m.s?  They clearly are not.
I quote:
   These are guidelines that have been generally agreed upon across
   USENET as appropriate for following in the creating of new newsgroups in
   the "standard" USENET newsgroup hierarchy. They are NOT intended as
   guidelines for setting USENET policy other than group creations, and they
   are not intended to apply to "alternate" or local news hierarchies.
The guidelines may be appropriate for the creation of r.m.m.s, but by their
own text they are not appropriate guidelines for the removal of r.m.s.

Ken Shirriff				shirriff@sprite.Berkeley.EDU
Newsgroups: uk.net,news.groups
From: evansg@uproar.enet.dec.com (Gwyn Evans @ IME)
Subject: Re: RFD: Should UK groups be sent to UUnet?
Followup-To:  uk.net,news.groups
Reply-To: evansg@uproar.enet.dec.com (Gwyn Evans @ IME)
Organization: Digital Equipment Service Industries Solutions Company Ltd
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 13:59:27 GMT


In article <1992Nov10.085605.25430@rdg.dec.com>,
cockburn@edieng.enet.dec.com (Craig Cockburn) writes:
>Newsgroups: uk.net,news.groups,soc.culture.british
>From: cockburn@edieng.enet.dec.com (Craig Cockburn)
>Subject: Re: RFD: Should UK groups be sent to UUnet?
>Sender: news@rdg.dec.com (Mr News)
>Organization: Digital Equipment Co. Ltd., Reading, England
>Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 07:52:38 GMT
>
>
>In article <1992Nov10.002823.6792@unipalm.co.uk>, Ian@unipalm.co.uk
>writes...
>> 
>>I have had a short email conversation with Brian Reid (he of the
>>news.lists postings) who is responsible for getting Usenet to, amongst
>>other people, the 3000 DEC employees in Britain. He is currently not
>>succeeding in sending the UK groups to them.
>> 
>
>Well if he's not, then someone else is, because I'm able to read the uk.*
>hierarchy

   To expand on Craig's comment a little, as I understand things, all
Digital employees access to and from the Internet passes through decwrl
in Paulo Alto, California.
  This includes Usenet postings and thus I don't think that Digital should
really figure in your calculations in this particular senario. Thanks for 
thinking of us though!

Gwyn
--
+======================================================================+
| Gwyn Evans  | evansg@uproar.enet.dec.com |  Uxbridge, Middlesex, UK  |
| DESISCo - Digital Equipment Service Industries Solutions Company Ltd |
|  Views expressed and statements made are mine and not those of DEC   |
+======================================================================+
From: tdunn@ecst.csuchico.edu (Tim Dunn)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: CFV? What's a CFV??
Date: 12 Nov 92 00:39:01 GMT
Organization: California State University, Chico
NNTP-Posting-Host: hairball.ecst.csuchico.edu

In article <92316.191414CH7QC@CUNYVM.BITNET> <CH7QC@CUNYVM.BITNET> writes:
>(Excuse my ignorance... but, what's a CFV... I know what a RFD is...)
>
>(Request for Discussion?)
>Thanks...
>And, let's say I wanted to start a group... how do
>you go about doing the RFD and voting and blah blah blah?
>Well, thanks... later...

Heh....  I'd politely suggest that if you do not know these things,
then you should only be thinking about starting a group in a hyp-
othetical sense.  CFV == "Call for Votes" which takes place in
email after a month or longer period of time for discussion, init-
iated by a RFD == "Request for Discussion."  For the proposal to
pass, the YES votes must have at least a 100 vote margin AND out-
number the NO votes by 2 : 1 ratio.

-- 
Paul Revere was a tattle-tale
From: killer@robin.cs.hut.fi (Kalle Kivimaa)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Music Group Reorg Disagreement (was Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored)
Date: 9 Nov 92 22:24:06 GMT
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, CS lab

In <1992Nov9.122137.29141@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:

>It's interesting that you fault the guidelines, yet you wish to uphold 
>them to the letter anyway. Are you in the habit of supporting what you
>know to be at fault?

Let me tell you a little story:

Finland lost the Second World War to SU.  After the war in 1945 the Soviets
wanted that the wartime leaders be tried for war crimes.  The only problem
was that there was no law to do it.  So, under considerable duress, the
parliament passed a law that defined war crimes AND WAS RETROSPECTIVE(sp?).

Now this happens to be legal in Finland, but to my knowledge NOT IN ANY
OTHER WESTERN COUNTRY.

What then happened was that the former president Ryti was tried and
sent to prison for a crime THAT HE DID NOT COMMIT (at the time).


The moral of the story:  A bad law in a democracy is a law made by
representatives of the people.  It is thus more moral to follow it
than not to.  What you need to do is to change it, but anything done
under the bad law is still legal even AFTER THE CHANGE.


I agree with you that the guidelines need a revision and will support
any such attempt (by you or others).  However, I DO NOT agree with
you that r.m.m.s should be deleted.  And I do not see what is so
wrong with the rename.
--
************************************************************************
* The night sky over the planet Krikkit is the least interesting sight *
* in the entire Universe.  -- Douglas Adams, HHGTG                     *
************************************************************************
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: nsw@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (Neil Weinstock)
Subject: Re: rec.music.makers.*: chronology and comments from the vote-taker.
Organization: The Flying Squid Patrol
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 00:00:26 GMT

I can't resist mentioning once again that I posted an explicit notice to 
rec.music.synth near the beginning of the discussion period regarding the
proposed name change.  I don't have access to any archives, so I can't
prove if it went out very far, or what.  I might have (stupidly) limited
the distribution to NA, but it still should have been seen by a large number
of affected people.

I wonder how many people saw my message, and ignored it?  As I said, the
subject line was explicit.  I did not, even after the posting, see a great
deal of discussion in news.groups (or rec.music.synth, for that matter) 
regarding the change.  I did not at any time see a massive campaign against
the name change, though a few people voiced disapproval.  I assumed that meant
that people basically didn't care, so I didn't bother to send explicit
notification later regarding the actual CFV....

                                - Neil

--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--==--
Neil Weinstock @ AT&T Bell Labs         //     What was sliced bread
att!edsel!nsw or nsw@garage.att.com   \X/    the greatest thing since?
From: huggins@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Jim Huggins)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor, MI
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 14:03:20 GMT

In article <1992Nov12.155251.9687@metrosoft.com> gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:
|In article <BxJqHE.HE1@fulcrum.co.uk> igb@fulcrum.co.uk (Ian G Batten)  
|writes:
|> People are told to read the instructions, didn't, and now are
|> complaining that they didn't know what was in them?  Do you get out
|> much?  I suppose that when you stick your fingers in the mains, ignoring
|> the sign saying ``do not stick your fingers in the mains'', you expect
|> me to be sympathetic?
|> 
|This would be a nice simple solution if all one had to know was in the  
|"instructions" (which happen to be several documents in several places  
|written by various people).

Not quite.  All the documents that have been mentioned are posted
periodically to news.announce.newusers by Gene Spafford.  All one needs
to do is access that particular newsgroup.

Several documents?  Yep.  Several places?  Nope.

-- 
Jim Huggins, Univ. of Michigan                          huggins@eecs.umich.edu
"You cannot pray to a personal computer no matter how user-friendly it is."
                                                          -- W. Bingham Hunter
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Talking to vote-takers during the vote
From: phygod72@nic.gac.edu (Phil )
Date: 13 Nov 92 11:53:09 -0600

In article <BxMG35.F7F@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>  writes:
} Let's say I have a question I'd like to ask the guy who proposed a new
} group and he's now taking votes on it.  The guidelines say he can't
} campaign for his group during the voting period, but can he respond to
} me if I start a discussion about it with him via email?  I don't want
} to put him in any jeopardy of invalidating the vote by tempting him to
} speak to me about it during the voting period if that's not allowed.

It can't be enforced, if that means anything to you.  And it would be near  
impossible to *prove* that he was campaigning for his group in a simple  
conversation with you (unless, of course, you're a BOFH--what's your username?   
:)      )

Phil
From: codish@chen.bgu.ac.il (Shlomi Codish )
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Former Soviet Asian republics
Date: 4 Nov 92 16:49:41 GMT
Organization: Ben Gurion University, Beer Sheva, Israel

I am trying to locate information on the Internet regarding various aspects
of life in the former Soviet Asian republics (in central Asia). Any information
at all would be welcome.

Please write to me via e-mail as I do not normally follow this group.

Thanks,

Shlomi Codish
codish@chen.bgu.ac.il
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Subject: Re: Music Group Reorg Disagreement (was Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored)
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 16:07:54 GMT

In article <MJP.92Nov11103348@prudence.hplb.hpl.hp.com>  
mjp@hplb.hpl.hp.com (Mike Prudence) writes:
> 
> 
> That's it.  If you can't accept those points, then you win, if that's
> what you want to hear.  Quite frankly, I give up.  My head is sore
> from bouncing it off the proverbial brick wall.
> 

How sad. Just what a few people here wanted. It's unfortunate that brick  
walls work.

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.folklore.computers
From: jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Joel Furr)
Subject: Re: leave alt.folklore.computers alone, rmgroup comp.society.folklore
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 92 02:23:35 GMT

In article <7698@lib.tmc.edu> jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
>In article <1992Nov3.184932.10967@u.washington.edu> starfish@stein.u.washington.edu (Sarah Skovronsky) writes:
>>IMHO, these
>>groups fit into the alt hierarchy very well, and if some people don't get
>>them...well...perhaps a petition to one's sysadmin?
>
>So long as there is Bruce Becker, more than a few sites will not participate
>in alt.*, mine among them.
>
>The only groups that fit in to the alt hierarchy are those that do not have a
>place in mainstream Usenet for one reason or another; primarily, those reasons
>are that the proposed group would be objectionable to a site's management (the
>prototypical case being alt.drugs, the driving force behind the alt hierarchy
>in the first place, and alt.sex, which came later), or that the group does not
>have sufficient support for placement in the Usenet mainstream (alt.cobol
>being a good example; I added it after comp.lang.cobol failed its vote).

You left out group #3: groups that serve a wide enough audience to need
more than just a mailing list, yet may not be big enough to pass a vote on
a regular hierarchy.  And group #4: groups that emphatically don't want to
be in the regular hierarchies.  Hell, if you want a regular hierarchy
computer folklore group, make one.  Just don't go screwing around with
alt.folklore.computers while you do it.
Xref: sparky news.groups:21449 news.admin.misc:327
From: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.misc
Subject: Re: About the elitism in news.groups
Date: 13 Nov 92 01:57:43 GMT
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: GSP Whitewater Slalom Racing Team

In article <1992Nov13.000519.27886@blaze.cs.jhu.edu> arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:
>In article <2B02B7F3.6142@tct.com> chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
>>Whoever this person is, he or she has NO BUSINESS pretending to know
>>how I may or may not consider myself.  NO BUSINESS AT ALL.
>
>According to this same reasoning, you have NO BUSINESS pretending to be
>concerned over his own thoughts.

I think you missed the point, which I'll now try to state another way.

Each of us has our own motivations, considerations, and attitudes.
It's flat-out ridiculous for any of us to think for a moment that
we know how someone else feels; we're all so different, most of us
have never met, and we're communicating through a medium that makes
it difficult to assess inflection and other cues to emotion.  It's
also completely unnecessary: if one of us really wants to know how
another one feels, all we really need to do is ask and wait for
the answer.  Then, and only then, we will *know*.

But in the absence of that sort of question and its corresponding
answer, completely unfounded speculations (for that is what they are)
about each other's mental states simply detract from the discussion.
We should all allow everyone to speak for him or herself, and we
should not attempt to infer personalities from postings.

---Rsk
From: METZE@VMETZE.MRL.UIUC.EDU (Virginia Metze)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re:  RFD: rec.equestrian.racing -- the name/hierarchy
Date: 13 Nov 92 01:47:39 GMT
Organization: Materials Research Laboratory
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24


I have been doing some thinking about the suggestion that
the racing category not be part of the hierarchy rec.equestrian.

On reflection, I believe that that is where it belongs, and not
under sports.  

If the present people using the rec.equestrian category are
so strongly opposed to racing and other activities in which
horses are involved, their group should be under talk.pets.




+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Virginia Metze, speaking for no one but herself  + Impeach the Rehnquist
metze@vmetze.mrl.uiuc.edu                        + 5, 6, or 7
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
VMS cluster managers:  do you know where your queue manager is right now?
=============================================================================
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 05:51:48 GMT

In article <b4=q4fa@lynx.unm.edu> lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble)  
writes:
> gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:
> 
> >> If you see an article with the words RFD or CFV in it, posted to a
> >> group you're interested in, then you ignore it at your peril.  
> >
> > The people that have been unknowing affected by this vote are now
> > painfully aware of this.  Why keep bashing us about it?  
> 
> Because you continue to insist that the blame for the problem lies with
> Rich's RFDs and CFVs instead of with your mistake.

You can't accept that errors occured on both sides and that we might able  
able to do something about this?

> When you give some
> evidence of understanding that *you* and only *you* screwed up, people
> will stop trying to remind you of it. 
> 

It wasn't only me, several other people have expressed the same opinion or  
had the same thing happen to them. Other people that weren't even involved  
have expressed some doubt over the process. If you're attempting to  
discredit me or derail this debate by this tactic it won't work.

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Homosexual Fascist Lobby, Rampant Paranoia Division
Distribution: usa
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 04:03:52 GMT

In article <1992Nov6.195803.14964@bradley.bradley.edu> pwh@bradley.bradley.edu (Pete Hartman) writes:

>In <1992Nov06.054214.22775@watson.ibm.com> strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom) writes:
>
>>How to remedy the problem in the future?  Either:
>>(1) Require that a CFV affecting a group have that group
>>    name explicitly in the subject.
>
>I agree that this is a good way to prevent this argument
>from recurring in the future.

The rec.music.makers CFV was posted to seven or ten newsgroups, I
believe.  I've seen more widely cross-posted CFVs and RFDs.  Should
each of these newsgroups be seperately enumerated in the subject line?
You've got a faster recipe for making your readers go glassy-eyed than
Clayton Cramer's `statistics.'

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / 
\  / twpierce@unix.amherst.edu / I use antlers in all of my decorating.
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) / 
Newsgroups: news.groups