From: esti@quads.uchicago.edu (Paul A. Estin)
Subject: Re: religion and violence (was Re: Hindu-Muslim violence)
Reply-To: esti@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: U. Michigan Cognitive Psychology
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 21:32:47 GMT

Paul "the Lunar Calendar Man" here again... :-)

>>In article <MSANGHVI.92Dec9210114@cs.ulowell.edu>, msanghvi@cs.ulowell.edu (Mehul Sanghvi) writes:
>[...bunch deleted...]
>>> avoid religious warfare/riots/bloodshed ... be an atheist :)

>alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia) wrote:
>>Yet another idiotic solution on your part. Solution to avoid religious
>>bloodshed or riots is to try to understand each other's religion and faith
>>by means of dialogue and sharing, not by becoming an atheists. Some of the
>>worst rioters or bloodhounds are atheists. You only have to look at 
>>some of them in China and the old Soviet Union.

In article <1g8h3tINN3bk@menudo.uh.edu> mece1xg@menudo.uh.edu (Purna
Murthy) writes:
> [deleted]
>
>i am curious as to your comment on atheism in china as well as the
>old soviet union, alok.  i know that religious ideas were suppressed
>and prohibited in the former soviet union, but the "worst rioters
>or bloodhounds"?  personally, i think the christian crusaders of the
>middle ages were worse than these "atheists", and they weren't the
>worst in world history!  do you have a reference on this?

I doubt that any cause has a monopoly on warfare, bloodshed, and
riots.  However, as I look over world history, it seems that the most
extreme and systematic violence has been carried out in the name of
some absolute cause, one that is its own justification.  Until modern
times, these absolutes were mostly religious ("We fight for our
God/Lord!") or nationalistic ("In the name of our Tribe/People!").
Then came the absolute of ideology ("For the Glorious Worker's
Revolution!") from the Revolutionaries of 1790s France to the Naziism
and Marxism of the 20th Century.

Picking out the worst evil among these is pretty tough, although I'm
inclined to pick the USSR when run by Josef Stalin... over 40 million
people systematically killed by violence or starvation is a tough
record to top.

But personally, I don't make much distinction between such absolute
causes.  They all have one thing in common-- they are immune to
contrary arguments.  I mean, even if someone's goal in life is to
amass as much money as possible and they don't care who they have to
run over to do it, at least they will be forced to examine their
methods if the money *isn't* coming in.  Or, even if someone's sole
goal is to acquire power, they can be forced to compromise in order
not to lose power altogether.  But if someone fights for some absolute
cause, and is convinced of the eventual proof of their correctness
(perhaps in an afterlife), even in the face of horrendous suffering
and death... it will be very difficult to sway that person (and the
followers they have gathered).  They will be capable of evil on a
tremendous scale.  (Caveat: they might also be capable of great
good... people working without promise of personal reward.
Unfortunately, the former is probably more likely.)

So, I go along with Alok...
>>Solution to avoid religious
>>bloodshed or riots is to try to understand each other's religion and faith
>>by means of dialogue and sharing, not by becoming an atheist.

No one says it'll be easy, but the only alternative I see is eternal
warfare between incompatible groups, all convinced of their own
righteousness.  (It's possible to swing too far though... at some
point, it becomes necessary to stand against those who aren't playing
by the same 'tolerance' rules you are.  There has to be a balance.)

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    _/_/_/  _/    _/    _/    _/_/    _/  _/ Paul Andrew Estin  313-994-3869
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  _/_/_/  _/  _/_/  _/_/_/  _/_/    _/     estin@csmil.umich.edu
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