HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jar@inel.gov (Jeffry A Rich)
Subject: Re: PC and Mac OEs
Organization: Idaho National Engineering Laboratory, Idaho Falls, Idaho
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 14:13:11 GMT

In article <1992Aug11.233913.1@vax1.tcd.ie>, ofsmyth@vax1.tcd.ie writes:
|> 
||> 	Windows is extremely difficult for the first-time, non-technical user.
|> The windowing system has more features which make it harder to use (not
|> insurmountable, though).  Multiple menus on screen serve to confuse for very 
|> little gain.  The worst feature of all, however, is the division of the File
|> Manager and Program Manager.  

A little disagreement is in order here. While it is true that for a complete novice, windowing environments are rather 'cryptic', how do you think a pure cli-based OS is? Anytime you're talking about computer-illiterate novices, ANY interface of ANY type is mysterious and confusing...including the MAC. For a person to become comfortable with an interface, they necessarily must spend some time with the users manual and just play around with the system.

Windows DOES take some time to learn, no question. But I don't think it takes an unreasonable amount of effort to become comfortable with. After all, one cannot expect to become proficient in an endeavour unless one is willing to learn how to use the tools!

Regards,
 JR Rich
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Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 17:21:40 GMT

In <1992Aug17.131551.18202@terminator.cc.umich.edu> potts@itl.itd.umich.edu (Paul Potts) writes:

>In article <1992Aug13.213845.3007@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>>In <1992Aug07.085102.4917@microsoft.com> petesk@microsoft.com (Pete Skelly) writes:
>>
>>Yeah, but seriously, how many computers come with disk drives?  Now
>>count how many have CD-ROM as a 'standard' part of the setup.
>>Frankly, I was just a bit hacked off at Sun when they came out with
>>this policy of shipping everything on CD-ROM only, and that's for
>>workstations that are just a bit higher dollar value than the typical
>>Intel machine.  MS doing it is RIDICULOUS.

>I suspect that the final release of the Windows NT end-user product will
>be available on magnetic media. The developer's tools probably *won't*, at
>least not the complete developer's tools. There's just too much.

There are companies that deliver complete UNIX environments (including
GUI, development tools, etc.) on floppy.  

>Call the distribution on CD-ROM "RIDICULOUS," but wouldn't it seem
>ridiculous (and aggravating) to receive the contents of the three CD-ROMs that
>we received at the conference on nine hundred and four floppies?

The SDK, etc., is 1 GIGABYTE in size?  Hell, what are you going to put
it on when you take it off the CD-ROM?  Either there's something wrong
with the numbers you're giving or MS lied about what size hard drive
you should have.

>There just isn't any other way that Microsoft could release this kind of
>package, make it valuable, and get it out the door in a timely manner when
>updates come. 

Ever heard of TAPE?  Ever heard of MEDIA CHARGES?

[For those who don't know, media charges are what you get billed for
the cost of the medium over and above the cost of the product if you
opt for the 'non-optimal' medium of tape or floppies.  Lots of
companies manage this just fine.  Why can't Microsoft?  To which I
would add, why can't Sun?]


-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
From: mbk@netcom.com (Miles Kehoe)
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 92 18:01:33 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Distribution: na

I admit and apologize for coming in late on this thread, but 
I invite you all to consider a benefit the cd-rom offers.
By distributing its NT software and documentation on
cd-rom, microsoft is saving a GREAT deal of paper and
printing, and probably contributing to a positive
direction in the environment - whether on purpose or
not. 

For the user, there is still another benefit: online
documentation comes with search technology. I'm not sure that
the NT doc cd comes with the same search engine MS is using
in their 'windows developers cd' coming next month - but
if it doesn't now it will soon. Have you ever said
to yourself "Self, I *know* I saw something in this
block of documentation that said passing a negative 
number to GetFreeMem would do something wierd, but
what the heck was it.. and WHERE in these thousands
of pages did I see that, anyway?"

With online docs and material on cd-rom, you search the
sucker using the best boolean you can think of.... you
still might not find it, but youhave as good or better
a chance than doing it in the paper book.

CD-ROIM is expensive, and that's too bad. The good news
is that it will become less expensive as more people
buy them - that's capitalism at work I suppose. If
you don't want to develop for NT, don't buy yourr
CD-ROM soon - after Christmas they'll probably be $250
each. But if you want to be on the edge, consider it
a development cost and go get one now. If you don't
see the knowledge you will have of NT as a being 
worth $500 or so, then don't spend it.
From: SXMRP@orca.alaska.edu (Michael R. Platzke)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: 19 Aug 92 00:49:29 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Alaska Computer Network

In article <1992Aug18.222203.9593@access.usask.ca> Lowey@Sask.USask.CA writes:
>From: Lowey@Sask.USask.CA
>Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
>Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 22:22:03 GMT

>I also am thrilled about the use of CD-ROMS as a distribution method.
>I think it is long overdue.  Unfortunately, I do NOT have a CD-ROM, so
>I cannot get the NT alpha.

>The problem isn't that Microsoft is using CD-ROMS to distribute the
>software.  The problem is that Microsoft is ONLY using CD-ROMS to distribute
>NT.  The key word there is "ONLY".
>-- 
>- Kevin Lowey (Lowey@Sask.USask.CA)
>>>>>> Anonymous FTP to FTP.USASK.CA for DOS, OS/2, and Windows programs <<<<<

I think the point to keep in mind tho is that this is the NT pre-beta SDK.
Many people have pointed out that the final NT will probably be available on
disk or other format for those who need it.  Look at the machine recommended
for the the prelim SDK and it seems that an extra $300-$600 for a CD-ROM is
not all that much more in comparison to the price of the machine.  Without
good Win16 and Dos support, this version is not much use to users.  Any
good size software house (and many smaller ones) can affort to spend the
money on a CD-ROM player or two.  Anyone from MS care to confirm whether the
NT retail will be available on disks?

Just my opinion...

-Michael R. Platzke (sxmrp@orca.alaska.edu)
From: discar@nosc.mil (Joe Discar)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: 20 Aug 92 20:06:25 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Naval Ocean Systems Center, San Diego

In article <1992Aug20.174636.24091@ringer.cs.utsa.edu> mlevis@ringer.cs.utsa.edu (Mike Levis) writes:
>In article <1992Aug20.151512.25663@nosc.mil> discar@nosc.mil (Joe Discar) writes:
>>Nintendo is based solely on read-only "mass storage" (if you can call the
>>cartridges storage)--but I daresay, the NES is more popular in my neighborhood
>>than any other "computer" on the market.  In other words, just because you
>>can't write to it, doesn't mean it isn't useful.
>
>[ I have been watching this debate with interest;  both sides have
>excellent arguments -- so I'm still neutral.  Let me just say
>one thing and I'll leave this debate. ]
>
>NES writes to its cartridge, as well.  This is how the high
>scores, and saved games are stored.  This surprised me since
>I assumed NES was read-only, just like the Atari 2600, Coleco,
>Intellivision, etc.
>

Okay... but MOST Nintendo games don't have nonvolatile RAM (I can think
only of the LINK series at the moment that do).  Most Nintendo games
are simply ROM cartridges--and people don't care if they can put their
own stuff on 'em--they buy them for what's on them already.

Likewise, a CD-ROM drive equipped system has the capability to "write"
data--by writing to the hard disk.  CD-ROM was never intended to replace
the mass storage of a system--merely supplement it.

Distributors tend to ship products in the cheapest form possible... in
some cases, the tail wags the dog: I remember my father when they stopped
(generally) supporting 8 track tape cartridges and everybody went cassette.  I
remember when nobody sold Beta anymore.  If the people refuse to buy CD-ROMs,
the industry won't support it--the problem is that people ARE buying CD-ROMs
and the developers are finding it to be the most cost effective way to
ship update-necessary software (such as SDK) and data-heavy applications.

If a person finds he doesn't like VHS, don't go to Blockbuster (tm).  If a
person is willing to buy a CD-ROM drive, then (a) don't get Microsoft SDK
(prerelease) or (b) find someone who'll do a conversion.
From: khamer@sumax.seattleu.edu (Little Kenny Hamer)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: CD ROMS (was: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2)
Date: 19 Aug 92 02:29:08 GMT
Organization: Seattle University, Seattle WA

In article <1992Aug18.152837.12528@engage.pko.dec.com> ewanco@kalvin.enet.dec.com writes:
>
>--
>All these complaints about CD ROM players.  Useless because they can't be
>written to.  Too expensive.  Not everyone has them.
>
>Someone said that "as soon as $3+<cost of mastering>/disk reaches the price of
>floppies, then CD ROM would be the best choice."  Well, first I could contend
>that that's not the only issue, cost of shipping and ease of installation are
>other issues. 
>

A few comment on the distribution of the SOFTWARE DEVELOPER'S ALPHA
VERSION of NT on cd-rom.  

HEY folks.  Mabye microsoft wants people with the money and interest to
develop large apps to use this release.  It makes sense that they would'nt
want their ALPHA version of NT to be widely released, because it is, after
all, still buggy.  CD-ROM is the perfect medium for a release of a large 
program to other corporations.  It costs much less than magnetic media for
microsoft to manufacture, and consequently much less to buy.  A 200 dollar
Drive is a VERY small investment for a software developer.  Furthermore,
CD ROM does not degrade over time.  I happen to like this.  If I buy a
fairly large, complex OS, I don't want to worry about the media failing.
CD ROMS are a very stable medium.  Magnets, sunlight, and the like don't
damage them.  The install will be much faster and easier without having to
juggle disks.  Any company develoing comercially that can afford the type
of machine nessecary for NT should have little trouble getting a CD-ROM.
That is who the release is intended for.  The rest of us (the general
public and other interested parties) will just have to A) wait for the
real release, at which time NT will come on magnetic media (this from a
friend at MS.  If you KNOW different, please correct me, but flames >
/dev/null).  Otherwise, B) get a CD ROM.  They are nice.  My brother has
one, and it beats hell out of large herds of floppies.

                                                     -KEN

My opinions are my own.  Can George Bush say that? Can Bill Clinton?
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
From: jarober@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu (DE Robertson james an 410-740-9172)
Subject: Re: Microsoft's discrimination against the blind
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 92 02:13:37 GMT

leeda@comp/os/ms-windows/advocacyps.msu.edu (Dae Hee Lee) writes:

>crosoft is trying to discriminate the blind by preventing them from
>accessing the computer.  Microsoft has already developed some versions
>of MS Windows with GUI, and is now developing Windows NT. But they don't
>have any plan to enable the blind to access their software at all.
>  But IBM has already developed the screen reading program for OS/2 2.0
>and the Presentation Manager for the blind.
>  Microsoft is clearly making discrimination for the visually impaired.

>Daehee Lee

1) If you believe that, I have some prime real estate in Florida.
2) Are you as dumb as you sound ?

MS is not discriminating - they are leaving the development of access 
software to 3rd parties, where it belongs.  MS is out to make money, NOT
to be nice.  Since the blind account for a fairly small portion of the
PC market, this is a fairly intelligent business decision.  I'm sorry
if that sounds callous, but that's business....

Jim Robertson
jarober@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: dwells@cognet.ucla.edu (David Wells)
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Organization: UCLA Cognitive Science Program
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 20:52:14 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.172140.15622@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>In <1992Aug17.131551.18202@terminator.cc.umich.edu> potts@itl.itd.umich.edu (Paul Potts) writes:
>
>
>Ever heard of TAPE?  Ever heard of MEDIA CHARGES?

Is there a "standard" PC tape?

Figure on paying $50 - $150 *extra* for tape media, for each release
of each product.  Doesn't take long to pay for a $650 CDROM drive...

>[...To which I would add, why can't Sun?]

Sun *had* two different SunOS medias for a while.  The media charge
difference paid for our CDROM drive in one year.  CDROM is cheaper for
*me*, and it is much more convenient!  All Sun architectures that we
have are on the same CDROM, I don't have to sit around during an
installation and change tapes, and the installations run about 1/3
faster.  Besides, now I have a CD player at work, that UCLA bought for
me! :-)


David
-- 
								David J Wells
"Cooking hotdogs with napalm"					w310/206-3960
	  - The Dead Milkmen			       dwells@cognet.ucla.edu
Xref: sparky comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy:1912 comp.os.os2.advocacy:4180
From: sammy@anagld.analytics.com (Sam Blackburn)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: 18 Aug 92 19:25:33 GMT
Followup-To: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Distribution: na
Organization: Computer Sciences Corporation - Systems Engineering Division

mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:

>I've installed bigger things than NT from floppies.  Also from TAPE
>(which I think is a more reasonable choice, personally -- at least a
>tape is useful to me for backing things up when I'm not spending time
>reinstalling NT.

>Has anyone noticed how all the people making excuses for this policy
>are from Microsoft?

Which is easier to manufacture?  Tape or CD?  Which is cheaper to distribute?

I, for one, like the idea of NT on CD-ROM.  It's a no-brainer to  install from,
it's a nice addition to the system to have to access the other CD-ROMs on the
market, and I can use it to listen to music while I program.  Can a tape do
that?
From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: 19 Aug 92 19:37:05 GMT
Article-I.D.: mksol.1992Aug19.193705.866
Distribution: na
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc

In <1567@anagld.analytics.com> sammy@anagld.analytics.com (Sam Blackburn) writes:

>mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:

>>Ever heard of TAPE?

>Have you seen what else MS is doing with CD-ROM?  

In other words, MS wants you to have a CD-ROM so that all this other
neat stuff they want to sell you becomes feasibly, but they can't
convince enough people to buy one for the supposedly 'neat stuff', so
they are going to try to 'drive the market' by doing the sort of thing
they're doing with NT.

>The CD-ROM is the only medium that is versatile enough to 
>make massive amounts of data accessible to the "user".  Can you imagine how
>responsive tape would be loading full motion video?  

As a software developer, I don't need to do this.  If I was in the
video editing business, I would probably have a CD-ROM drive on my
machine. 

>How about accessing an
>indexed database of census data?  

As a software developer, I don't need to do this.  If I needed to do
this a lot, I would probably have a CD-ROM drive on my machine.

>I'd love to wait a few minutes while my
>tape winds and rewinds to read in data because I can write to tape.  

Nobody suggested tape for those applications.

>CD-ROM
>is much more flexible in accessing data than a tape.  

But we're not talking about using it that way.  We're talking about
Microsoft having it as THE ONLY DISTRIBUTION MEDIA FOR THE WINDOWS/NT
SDK they just released.

>How about reproduction
>times?  How long does it take to reporduce 10,000 tapes as opposed to CD-ROMs?

Why should I care?  I'm the CUSTOMER.  I should worry about what's
convenient for Microsoft?  That is supposed to work the other way
around, since *I* am the one they want to be *their* customer.

>There's all kind of aspects to consider when you look at this.  CD-ROM for 
>software distribution ONLY is not the cheapest (for a drive anyway).  But look
>at the other things you can do with it.  MS will be shipping a developer's
>CD with 30,000-40,000 pages of information on it.  Reading the data in that
>database in a random-access manor would be insufferable via tape.

But I don't DO those other things.  Why should a software developer
have to buy a CD-ROM drive, then?  Other than that Microsoft thinks he
should, of course.


-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
From: mhuth@byron.u.washington.edu (Mark Huth)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: 22 Aug 92 15:23:03 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

>I would be happy to buy a CD-ROM if there was sufficient stuff published at
>reasonable cost (about $100 say) per volume:
>
>	Chem Abstracts (not on CD-ROM at any price)
>	The Federal Register (? available, several thousand dollars per year)
>	Compendex (? available, several thousand dollars per year)
>	Science Citation (???)
>	Current Contents (???)
>	Other Abstracts (some available, cost way too much)
>	Grolliers Encyclopedia (Ha! If its like the hardcopy, no thanks)
>	UNIX Clone with complete source (not yet, but probably coming if
>			AT&T doesn't trash it in court)
>	NT with complete source (dream on)
>
>But just to load NT SDK? No way.
>
>orville
>
Orville, as you know the hard copy prices of science citation and current 
contents are quite expensive.  I'm not sure that CDrom is supposed to make
things cheaper for you (although it should), but rather make things more
convenient.  What I'd like to see is full text of journals on cd-rom.  Further,
if I could get a "taylored" set...I'd be very, very interested.  Oh, I've seen
mention that IBM will have os/2 available on cd-rom.  No source of course, but
I'd suggest that being able to load from cd-rom would be a good deal easier 
than the current 21 disk shuffle.  



-- 
Mark Huth                         * Is it too wild to want to get into 
Mhuth@u.washington.edu            * Space someday?
Compuserve 70346,563              *
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: gregde@microsoft.com (Greg Demichillie)
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: 20 Aug 92 16:15:27 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation
Distribution: na

In article <1992Aug17.202626.18076@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>In <1992Aug14.173031.4014@microsoft.com> gregde@microsoft.com (Greg Demichillie) writes:
>
>>In article <1992Aug13.213845.3007@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>>>It's not a matter of 'not needing money'.  It's a matter of needing a
>>>CD-ROM. 
>
>>I know of many places that will happily exchange the former for the latter :=)
>
>So do I, but I, personally, have better things to do with my money
>than blow it on something I don't want or need, simply because
>Microsoft thinks I ought to.  I suspect that the company also has
>better things to do with its money, although I certainly wouldn't

It is a gross simplification to say that MS put the NT SDK on CD-ROM
just for the hell of it.  And remember, we aren't just talking about
the operating system, the CD includes NT for i386 and MIPS architectures
as well as a complete SDK and development tools for both..  Even if 
the MIPS stuff was split out you are looking at many, many floppy 
disks (even assuming 50% compression to floppies.).  There is certainly 
no way we could sell it for $69 if it included that many floppies.  


>>Seriously, operating systems and developement systems are getting so big
>>and so complex that the cost of goods for distributing them on floppies
>>is getting out of hand.  MS isn't the first to go the CD-ROM route. Look
>>at NeXT, Sun and Apple.  They are all using CD-ROM as the preferred
>>means of distrubution.  
>
>Yes, they are.  The key word is 'preferred'.  You can still get things
>on other media.
>
>[Note that this isn't strictly true with Sun; the operating system, at
>least, is ONLY available pre-installed or on CD-ROM.]

I don't know if any decisions have been made regarding final distribution
of the OS, but for the SDK at least I don't think the CD-ROM choice
was unreasonable.


>>If you don't want to have everyone in your
>>company have CD-ROMS, buy one CD-ROM and multiple copies of the SDK and
>>then have the one person copy from the CD-ROM to your network.  
>
>In other words, we get to reinforce the old MIS paradigm, where 'mere
>users' can't reinstall their own machines if something goes wrong
>(because they don't have media that they can put in their machine).

No, you missed my point.  You have one person copy the contents of the
CD to the network and each person can then install from the net to
their own machine.  No MIS guru needed, just someone to type "xcopy."
 

-Greg

-- 
Greg DeMichillie          
gregde@microsoft.com      -- All opinions are mine, not Microsoft's -- 
Xref: sparky comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy:1925 comp.os.os2.advocacy:4213