From: mst4298@summa.tamu.edu (Mitchell S Todd)
Subject: Re: Teen Agent, Can you Hear Me? Teen Agent, Can You See Me? (was: Clay Shaw is Clay Bertrand, Oswald *was* a Teen Agent
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Organization: Applied Upyerstemmatey Corp
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 17:03:00 GMT

In article <schuck.713688893@sfu.ca>, Bruce_Schuck@sfu.ca writes...
>Mitchell S Todd >
>Bruce Schuck >>
>Robert "Skeptical of one side only" Sheaffer >>>
>David Wright >>>>

>>>>Oswald was only 20 when he went to the USSR, supposedly as a "CIA
>>>>operative." That means that his alleged training must have taken

> 
>>>So. They train teenagers to fly fighter planes.

>>	Since when? Last I checked, you have to be a college grad
>>	to fly one.

>Did you check 1959/1960?

	The last time non-college grads were admitted to flight training
	was 1954. I know because my father was one of the last non-college
	cadets to get into flight school (and he was over twenty a the
	time as well).


>Whether you did or not is irrelevant. There are hundreds of deadly
>MOS' in the military and most of them *don't* have an age
>requirement.

	Actually, the age requirement is the enlistment requirement.
	However, it doesn't really matter that much. There's a
	difference between playing soldier and being a clandestine
	agent. Any idiot can keep his head down, point a gun, and shoot
	it at someone. Ferreting out closely held information in a
	very hostile envirnoment with little help is a different
	matter entirely.


>>>They sent hundreds of thousands of teenagers to Vietnam.

>>	"They" did so more by necessity than choice. Conscription
>>	tends to keep the grunts young, especially when an unpopular
>>	war keeps a lot of poeple from enlisting on thier own for
>>	longer terms.

>>	Anyway, how did these tenneagers do in 'Nam?

>Not very well at all.

>Are you implying the military was *smarter* in 1960 than in 1964-1975?

	It depends on what you mean. Much of the fiasco in Vietnam
	is attributable to political, rather than military, decisions,
	and military decisions made by politicians for political
	reasons. The rotation policy, especially that for officers, was well
	intentioned but counter productive. 
	
	
>>>There is evidence that the Office of Naval Intelligence had a program 
>>>designed to infiltrate the USSR by having young military personnel act
>>>disaffected and defect. The program may have infiltrated as many as 40
>>>military personnel , some for only a few weeks , into the USSR.

>>>Between 1945 and 1959, only 2 US military personnel defected to the USSR.

>>>In the 18 months leading up to 1960, 11 men with military backgrounds
>>>or backgrounds with access to sensitive data defected.

>>	And what were these men supposed to find out? A defector would
>>	be so controlled and scrutinized by the Soviets that they would
>>	be of little or no use. 

>Finding out *how* the KGB and GRU operated would have been excellent
>intelligence, and worth the risk of losing an occasional motivated
>Marine. The military didn't have much problem with killing off lots of
>Marines a few years later in Vietnam for much less gain.

	So what about "killing Marines?" The idea is that the spy lives
	so he can return with the information.


>>	How can you be a spy when the MVD/KGB, sure that you are a spy,
>>	is keeping close tabs on you?

>Gee you are dense! How did all those KGB men operate in the West when
>everyone knew who they were. The answer is pretty damn well!
>The same goes for intelligence officers operating out of embassies
>behind what was the Iron Curtain. Just because its hard doesn't mean
>you don't try!

	
	There's a difference between a spy posing as a diplomat and
	an infiltrator. The spy working out of the embassy has the
	cacoon of the embassy to sheild him and diplomatic immunity
	to protect him. A "defector" would have no such advantage,
	no secure place to store documents and other bits of hard
	evidence, etc.

	An embassy employee would know where he would be based
	from. Oswald, or any other fake-defector, would be sent to
	wherever the Soviets decided to send him. How can you
	find out the state of the Soviet electronics industry if
	you are sent to a village with no electricity?	A spy
	without an objective is a sorry sight.


>>	Which leads to the big question: what was Oswald supposed to
>>	find out? 

>I can think of 100's of things he could find out just by being in the
>USSR. Are the people dissatisfied?
	
	Even in the late '50's and early '60's, all you needed was
	to read news reports.

>Who would be good to contact?
	
	You don't need fake defectors to do that.

>Do they eat well?

	Walk into a a market and see what's available, and how much people
	are buying.

>What would be a good bribe?

	That's generally common knowledge. Anyway, for the "big stuff,"
	the amount for a bribe would be negotiated between the
	participants, or the original offer would be enough to
	silence any questions. As for the petty stuff, the amounts
	are generally common knowledge.


>What's the state of their electronics industry etc etc

	Go out and check the stores. Buy a few items and analyze them.

	All of these things could be found out quite easily by the
	normal Embassy staff at very little risk.  


>He could even marry the daughter
>of someone high up in the party and listen to gossip!

	a high ranknig defector/agent is more probable.
	

>Gee Mitchell...you have no imagination at all. Or do you think all
>spies carry Walther PPK's and Licenses to Kill and say "My names Bond,
>James Bond." :) :) :)

	Actually, I think that most spies spend most of their time
	going through broadcast reports and newspaper clippings, and
	the like.

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