HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mcclain@regent.enet.dec.com ()
Subject: Re: GUIs Considered Harmful
Reply-To: mcclain@regent.enet.dec.com ()
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 18:34:47 GMT


 In article <1992Aug20.181915.2357@twg.com>, "David Herron" <david@twg.com> writes:

|>In any case ... with a keyboard interface the user generally must
|>remember all the options, and getting them wrong means retyping.
|>Say you are writing an e-mail user interface..  how do you select
|>recipients to a message which is being composed?  With a window'd
|>interface the program could include an address book where the user
|>keeps names & addresses of people s/he communicates with.  The computer
|>remembers the spelling of everything, reducing errors from transcription
|>etc etc.  Fewer errors means it is more likely the job will be done
|>right the first time, meaning fewer times when a message will have
|>to be re-addressed and re-sent.

|>With a CLI (curses) interfact, there generally is not enough bandwidth
|>between application & screen & user to present the address book as
|>a scrolled list.  So usually the user must type things by hand, etc,
|>leading towards more errors, and so on.

The scrolled list is not the only way to solve this problem.  The way I prefer is the way GNU Emacs handles it.  When you are typing a command or a filename
you can hit space and Emacs attempts to finish the command or filename.  This works fairly well if I have any clue as to what filename or command I want.  It is also alot faster than the move-my-hands-to-the-mouse-click-wait-for-dialog-
box-scroll-scroll-click-reaquire-keyboard cycle (which is admittedly vary useful if I have no idea what command or file I want and I need to browse, but then again the Emacs interface allows for that too...if you hit space again it list all the posable options.)


The opinions in this post are not necessarily the opinions of Digital Equipment Corporation

John W.F. McClain






Newsgroups: alt.religion.computers
From: jbotz@mtholyoke.edu (Jurgen Botz)
Subject: Re: GUIs Considered Harmful
Organization: Mount Holyoke College
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 21:47:54 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.200032.22705@news.eng.convex.com> samborn@lynchpin.mtkgc.COM (Kevin Samborn) writes:
>There are cases where a GUI makes more sense.  One of my favorite
>examples: a scheduling tool where people are marking dates on a time
>line.  In the old-style fashion (form entry), the app queries the user
>to enter dates until he is done, and the computer marks the dates on
>the time line.  He then has to specifically request to move the date
>or remove it.  In my (GUI) version, he interacts in the new-style:
>direct-manipulation.  Instead of entering the date, he just drags the
>marker onto the time line.  Then, he moves the marker how he wants, or
>just removes the marker off.
>
>This paradigm is better (in my opinion) because the user is not asking
>the computer to do something for him.  Instead, he is doing it for
>himself.

Well, that is the essence of direct manipulation, and can be generalized
to many, if not all, objects.  But ultimately your example is still
subject to Tom's criticism... what if I need to make a change to the
schedule from a remote connection where no GUI is available, if I need
to automate some scheduling tasks via a script?  The answer, of course,
is that the direct manipulation aspect of the scheduler should be a 
separable front end.

(Incidentally I picked this out of your long post because I am faced
with exactly that problem... in my department we use a Macintosh based
product called "Meeting Maker" to schedule meetings and resources, but
it's functionality is limited by the fact that we can't integrate it
into other environments, and when I'm out sick I can't mark that fact
on my schedule, etc.)

--
Jurgen Botz                  |   Internet: JBotz@mtholyoke.edu
Academic Systems Consultant  |     Bitnet: JBotz@mhc.bitnet
Mount Holyoke College        |      Voice: (US) 413-538-2375 (daytime)
South Hadley, MA, USA        | Snail Mail: J. Botz, 01075-0629
Newsgroups: alt.religion.computers,comp.human-factors
From: malc@pyramid.unr.edu (Malcolm L. Carlock)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.computers
Subject: Peeve: Numerical error messages
Date: 14 Aug 92 00:42:21 GMT
Organization: Xinaian Tourist Bureau

Peeve #1:  When a program fails with a message like "Error 192", rather
	   than a descriptive textual message.

  OK, fine -- a set of 200 or so textual error messages might take up 16KB
  or so of memory, and sometimes memory can be tight.  BUT:

Peeve #2:  When said program does not at least include in its documentation
	   a description of what the hell conditions "Error 192" and friends
	   are intended to indicate AND getting hold of a human to tell you
	   what these messages mean is well-nigh impossible.

  A pox, a pox I say on such error "documentation".
--
Malcolm L. Carlock                      Internet:  malc@unr.edu
                                        UUCP:      unr!malc
                                        BITNET:    malc@equinox
Newsgroups: alt.religion.computers
From: qpliu@phoenix.princeton.edu (q.p.liu)
Subject: Re: GUIs Considered Harmful
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: qpliu@princeton.edu
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 04:56:48 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.181915.2357@twg.com> "David Herron" <david@twg.com> writes:

>"Being needlessly forced to click the mouse over a menu will
>slow down the expert user who is more comfortable with a keyboard
>interface."

Being needlessly forced to switch between the mouse and the keyboard
will slow down just about any user.
-- 
qpliu@princeton.edu           Standard opinion: Opinions are delta-correlated.
Newsgroups: alt.religion.computers
From: nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
Subject: Re: The need for an assembler (was: Favorite CPU)
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 02:36:01 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.153559.9595@wheaton.wheaton.edu> gmribeir@david.wheaton.edu (Glauber) writes:
>REAL programmers do:
>	copy con program.exe

you must be speaking in tongues. What's "copy"? What's "con"? What's
".exe"?

Surely you mean
        cat > program
-- 
                __
nelson@reed.edu \/              Death needs time for what it kills to grow in
From: nmodi@klinzhai.rutgers.edu (Nirav Modi)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.computers
Subject: Graphics board(VGA), Reading material
Date: 13 Aug 92 21:46:04 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.




Hello
	I have request for IBM PC Hardware Gurus.

	Right now I am working on my graduate thesis. For my thesis
work, I am designing a graphics board which connects two VGA cards
(8 bits outputs , speed 36.5 MHz) and selects one of VGA card output.
I have controller to select VGA  card output. 

	I am storing output in static RAM and providing it to another
VGA card.

	I am looking reference material -related books, papers with
graphics board.

	Can you be kind enough to guide me?
	
	I will be very much thankful to you.
	
	Thank you very much and Have a nice day.

-Nirav Modi
nmodi@klinzhai.rutgers.edu
-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Nirav B. Modi
(908)699-1124(Home)
(908)932-4786(School)
email address: nmodi@klinzhai.rutgers.edu
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Newsgroups: alt.religion.computers
From: iisakkil@lesti.hut.fi (Mika Iisakkila)
Subject: Re: GUIs Considered Harmful
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology
	<1992Aug20.165713.6750@u.washington.edu>
	<1992Aug23.015750.2733@uwm.edu>
Date: 23 Aug 92 13:57:20

markh@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Hunk) writes:

>GUI's (with mouses) are laughable in that they were being foisted on a market
>at a time when far superior technology was and still is available (light pens)

Oh, please. Have you ever tried using one for longer than 5 minutes?
Holding your hand constantly up, like writing on a blackboard, but
with much tighter accuracy requirements? A light pen would be OK, if
the screen was like a sheet of paper, lying on the table. Maybe the
pen micros will evolve to something like this. A mouse may not be the
best possible thing, but it much less a strain on the hand than a
light pen with a conventional monitor.

>hand and the screen with a mouse, but allows direct contact with the screen
>either with a keyboard or a light pen, or both.

A mouse is fine for dragging windows. A light pen would be optimal for
sketching. Nevertheless, I hate GUI programs that don't have keyboard
shortcuts for all frequently used commands.

>The only acceptable user interface (the Optimal one) is a direct
>brain-to-machine connection.

I agree with that. But what if you can't concentrate properly, and
your mind begins to wander? :-)

--
Segmented Memory Helps Structure Software
Newsgroups: alt.religion.computers
From: sourada@iastate.edu (Steven D Ourada)
Subject: Re: Peeve: Numerical error messages
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 01:43:52 GMT

In <4318@equinox.unr.edu> malc@pyramid.unr.edu (Malcolm L. Carlock) writes:

>Peeve #1:  When a program fails with a message like "Error 192", rather
>	   than a descriptive textual message.

A Real Hacker doesn't need text messages, or even a number. "E" is good
enough, as a matter of fact.

>Peeve #2:  When said program does not at least include in its documentation
>	   a description of what the hell conditions "Error 192" and friends
>	   are intended to indicate AND getting hold of a human to tell you
>	   what these messages mean is well-nigh impossible.

It's obvious what error 192 is anyway. But I'm not going to tell you if you
don't already know...


               Later,
                 Steven Ourada


:-)

-- 
-----------------
Steven Ourada  Member of the Students for Electronic Freedom
Ask me how Iowa State University is censoring my Usenet access!
sourada@iastate.edu     "can't casts no shadow" -- cummings
Newsgroups: alt.religion.computers
From: cj@eno.wpd.sgi.com (C J Silverio)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.computers
Subject: Re: GUIs Considered Harmful
Date: 21 Aug 92 23:24:14 GMT
Reply-To: cj@sgi.com (C J Silverio)
Followup-To: alt.religion.computers
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.  Mountain View, CA


In article <1992Aug19.192513.28287@news.eng.convex.com>, Tom Christiansen <tchrist@convex.COM> writes:
|Of how much ultimate utility is that nifty new spreadsheet, editor, or
|debugger if I can't dialup from the field and run it on my vt100?  Too
|often a tool that "does windows" is little more than a marketing
|gimmick to dazzle impressionable users into not noticing that they
|don't have the real functionality they need.

My response to this argument is a big "So what?"

I do not consider troff to be of more utility than FrameMaker or
Microsoft Word, even though I can use troff from a vt100.

I do not consider dbx to be of more utility than CASE tools with
GUIs, even though I can use dbx from a vt100.

I do not consider pic to be of more utility than CAD & drawing
software, even though I can use pic from a vt100.

I don't even consider vi to be of more utility than the
GUI-based text editor I'm using to write this article, even
though I can use vi from a vt100.  This editor has all the
features vi has, accessible from menus or from keyboard
equivalents.  And it lets me cut & paste text with my mouse,
which is much much faster & more convenient than vi's
mechanism.

You'd have a much stronger argument if you argued that some
tasks are not suited to GUI presentations.  The examples
I listed above *are* better off presented through GUIs than
through text interfaces.  Your blanket argument fails to convince
me.

---
cj@eno.wpd.sgi.com      C J Silverio/Brahms Gang/Berkeley CA 94720
"We programmers are not normal people.  We tend to have superior
memories, we actually grasp Boolean logic, we have formed priesthoods 
around the most egregious interfaces, and we have a firm belief
that the average citizen is in search of an editor for his daily C
and Pascal coding tasks.  We are not firmly rooted in the real world."
    --"Tog on Interface"
From: sue@byron.u.washington.edu (Shu-Chen Eclipse)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.computers
Subject: Help: xterm disapears when I "close" the window
Date: 19 Aug 92 19:45:50 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

Hellow, well I added xterm to my personalized openwin-menu and it works just
fine. Problem now is if I close the xterm window to iconify it, the window
simply diappears, it does not map to any icon; the xterm process is still running, though. I would seem to me that any window application that provides for
a close window option in its menu, should automatically provide an icon to 
map to when it closes the window, or am I doing something wrong?

So, how do I give xterm an icon to map to when I iconify it?

thanx for answering,

sue@byron.u.washington.edu
From: jhawk@panix.com (John Hawkinson)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.computers
Subject: Re: Peeve: Numerical error messages
Date: 16 Aug 92 13:03:15 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix, NYC

In <sourada.713756632@vincent1.iastate.edu> sourada@iastate.edu (Steven D Ourada) writes:

>It's obvious what error 192 is anyway. But I'm not going to tell you if you
>don't already know...

Sure. Error 192 is a Turbo Pascal error meaning "file not found." It's
probably lots of other things in other places, but that's most likely
the problem. 

--
John Hawkinson
jhawk@panix.com
Xref: sparky alt.religion.computers:477 comp.unix.misc:3285
From: fl0p+@andrew.cmu.edu (Frank T Lofaro)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.computers,comp.unix.misc
Subject: Re: The need for an assembler (was: Favorite CPU)
Date: 19 Aug 92 08:39:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: andrew.geYbYY_00axfM1REYT
	<5230@krafla.rhi.hi.is>
Organization: Freshman, Physics, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

Excerpts from alt.religion.computers (USENET): 19-Aug-92 Re: The need
for an assembler (was: Favorite CPU) einari@rhi.hi.is (Einar Indridason)

> ( cat > a.out )

	NO! Real programmers don't bother with writing executable files! Real
programmers just write their code straight into kernel memory!

adb -w /vmunix /dev/kmem

:)
Xref: sparky alt.religion.computers:496 comp.windows.misc:1178 comp.windows.news:488 comp.windows.x:15494 comp.human-factors:1832
From: dalton@cord.Geop.UBC.CA (David Dalton)
Subject: Re: Survey
Organization: Dept. of Geophysics & Astronomy, UBC, Vancouver, Canada
	<TROST.92Aug18122441@romulus.reed.edu>
	<1992Aug18.201906.15101@afit.af.mil>
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 08:17:29 GMT


Alex Kilpatrick  fkilpatr@afit.af.mil writes:
>  Wow, I use emacs, too.  I am *almost* in heaven, because I use it for 
>  everything but reading news.  How do you do that?

I think there are two newsreaders for use in emacs: gnus and gnews.
I haven't tried gnews but use gnus regularly.  It is available by
anonymous ftp from many sites, including  archive.cis.ohio-state.edu
in /n/archive/0/extra-ftp/gnu/emacs/elisp-archive/packages/gnus-3.14.1.tar.Z

gnews is  available from the same site in
/n/archive/0/extra-ftp/gnu/gnews/gnews-2.0-tar.Z

I think gnus is better and more up-to-date, but I haven't tried gnews.

They are discussed in gnu.emacs.gnus  and gnu.emacs.gnews.

David <Dalton@Geop.UBC.Ca>

Newsgroups: alt.religion.emacs
From: alvin@netcom.com (Alvin H. White)
Subject: C-s pauses local computer while terminal to remote sys w/emacs. Help.
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 23:08:19 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Distribution: bay

I log in to a remote system that has emacs. I use an old compaq, ibm
compatible, as a terminal using Telix through a modem. I want to learn
emacs which is on the remote. The tutorial says I need control-s to do
something. When I do control-s my machine pauses locally until I do 
control-q to unpause it. The control-s doesn't get transmitted to remote.
  
I tried assigning control-s to another key. That then pauses it likewise.

Any easy solution?


alvin@netcom.com

Alvin H. White, Gen. Sect.
G.O.D.S.B.R.A.I.N.
1505 De Rose Way #66 
San Jose, CA 95126 USA

(408) 286-2794
(408) 286-4244

Government Online Database Systems
Bureau for Resource Allocations to Information Networks
[an idea waiting to happen]

120 West 38 North
From: shem@zombie.oulu.fi (Janne Himanka)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.emacs
Subject: The Emacs-orthodox answer (Was: Re: Survey)
Date: 19 Aug 92 08:49:24 GMT
Reply-To: shem@phoenix.oulu.fi
Organization: Tilde's home bakery

>>>>> "survey" == Chris & Susan Colvin <70253.2621@CompuServe.COM> writes:

	survey> When you die, where will you go?  (in the ground is
	survey> not a valid answer)

If I'm pure, I go to pure lisp storage. If I'm impure, I become
garbage, get collected and blown away. 

	survey> If you were to die today, would you go to heaven?

That's in the hands of the garbage collector and I wouldn't know, a
vile nameless lambda list that I am.

	survey> If you were to die today and God asked you, "Why
	survey> should I let you into my heaven?" What would you say?

Integer sum. (At Emacs est sola Dea.)

	survey> What is my "agenda" for asking these questions?  Just
	survey> curious.

No, just a christian imperialist who thinks (s)he's awfully clever and
can get people think about "profound" questions and arrive at insane
conclusions. 

(apply '(lambda () (format "Janne Himanka")) nil)

--
Most of the girls, as they walked along, seemed to be % shem@phoenix.oulu.fi
absorbed in silent prayer; but he supposed, on second % TKOP-HJH@FINOU.BITNET
thoughts, it was only gum they were thus incessantly  % shem@nic.funet.fi
ruminating. Gum, not God.                             % Dept. of Libr.&Inf. Sc
From: xtifr@netcom.com (Chris Waters)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.emacs
Subject: Re: Reading news the Gnu way (was inane "Survey")
Date: 19 Aug 92 09:52:17 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

In <doom.714182699@elaine36.Stanford.EDU> doom@leland.Stanford.EDU (Joseph Brenner) writes:

>But the advantages of gnus:  

>(1) Ideological purity.  No need to soil your consciousness
>by leaving emacs.

Hmm, before I go on, perhaps I should mention that I am a heretic.  I
don't use GNU EMACS on this machine out of courtesy to other users, and
don't use it on my own machine because, despite the claims of the
orthodox, a 386/40 with only 8 meg is *not* enough to run that sucker. 
I am, however, a heretic, not an infidel--I use MicroEMACS, rather than
going to the well of all eVIl.  :-)

>(2) The newsgroup menu is nifty for choosing the occasional
>odd newsgroup you wouldn't normally read.  This is missing
>from nn.

Is not.  In nn, press `g'.  Then, play guessing games.  (Newsgroup name
completion is available, but that doesn't help if you don't know where
to start.)  Ok, so maybe it's not well implemented, but it *is*
implemented.  :-)

>(3) When you reply, you can see the text you're replying to
>in another window.  There's no easy way to implement this if
>your editor is a sub-process of your newsreader.

NOT!!  Any editor that can accept two filenames on the command-line
*could* be used in this way.  The problem is that so many people use a
certain brain-dead editor (which shall remain nameless, but whose
initials are V.I.) which cannot edit multiple files/buffers.  Thus, none
of the standalone newsreaders offer the option of using two files.

A handly little trick (which should work on almost any version of EMACS,
micro or dinosaur):  make a macro that creates a temporary buffer, and
moves the reference text from your current buffer to that.

> This
>biases people toward "quoting" everything replied to, and
>not everything gets deleted that should be.

It's *all* vi's fault!!  Every byte of wasted net.bandwidth is caused by
the evil minions of Satan's editor!  If the One True Editor (and its
various boddhisatvic relatives) had the true dominance they deserved,
and the fools who worship at other altars[*] were driven forth from
this, our Promised VR, then All Would Be Right With The Net.
:-) :-) :-)

[*] and engage in unspeakable practices.  Can't forget the unspeakable
practices.  Everybody knows that vi fans rape and murder small children
and other barnyard fowl as they utter their arcane and foul incantations.
:-)
-- 
Chris Waters    | the insane don't | NOBODY for President!
xtifr@netcom.COM| need disclaimers | Because Nobody's perfect!!
Newsgroups: alt.religion.emacs
From: jv@irus.rri.uwo.ca (Jeffrey Verhagen)
Subject: Re: The Emacs-orthodox answer (Was: Re: Survey)
Organization: none
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 14:49:03 GMT
Keywords: garbage-collection, sex, emacs

In article <SHEM.92Aug19104924@zombie.oulu.fi> shem@phoenix.oulu.fi writes:
>>>>>> "survey" == Chris & Susan Colvin <70253.2621@CompuServe.COM> writes:
>
>	survey> When you die, where will you go?  (in the ground is
>	survey> not a valid answer)
>
>If I'm pure, I go to pure lisp storage. If I'm impure, I become
>garbage, get collected and blown away. 

You mean "re-used", don't you?

Jeff...
(forever (and Lisp Emacs))
Newsgroups: alt.religion.emacs
From: suopanki@zombie.oulu.fi (Heikki Suopanki)
Subject: Re: Reading news the Gnu way (was inane "Survey")
Reply-To: suopanki@phoenix.oulu.fi
Organization: Unixverstas Olutensin, Finlandia
	<TROST.92Aug18122441@romulus.reed.edu>
	<1992Aug18.201906.15101@afit.af.mil>
	<doom.714182699@elaine36.Stanford.EDU>
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 19:51:30 GMT

>>>>> On 19 Aug 92 00:04:59 GMT, doom@leland.Stanford.EDU (Joseph Brenner) said:

Joseph> Try ESC x gnus.  
Yep

Joseph> (This isn't the *best* way to read news... 
Are you a heretic or what? This *is* the *best* way to read news!

Joseph> One of the worst things about Gnu gnus (pronounced Gah-new
Joseph> news) is that it's slow
Don't blame Gnus, get a better computer....

Joseph>  It can take five minutes to start up
Or 25 seconds.

Joseph> There are some other minor problems.  Subscribing to new
Joseph> newsgroups seems to be a broken feature...
Gnus is supposed to do that automatically. I think it's your
gnus-subscribe-newsgroup-method that is broken.

-Heikki
--
                        *   O       O   *                     
                        *  <|       |>  * Those who know the 
suopanki@zombie.oulu.fi *   o-O==()-o   * answer don't want to 
                        *   |  > /  |   * tell us the question
                        *   l ###\  l   *                     
Newsgroups: alt.religion.emacs
From: sdb@ssr.com (Scott Ballantyne)
Subject: Re: Purif and Niacin (was Re: Who died?)
Organization: ScotSoft Research
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 20:00:12 GMT

In article <BsstFG.2w5@cup.hp.com> decot@cup.hp.com (Dave Decot) writes:

   Here are the relevant passages (including other passages relevant to
   the basic topic discussed here) from the primary Purif reference.
   Everyone who does the Purif is required to read this document
   (as well as others) and is checked on their understanding of it.

Well, thank you again!  This was very helpful.  As I read the
document, it seems that the idea is that ingesting oil encourages the
body to release the fat stores, and that the niacin helps release the
toxic chemicals that are alleged to reside in the fatty tissues into
the blood stream.

I will prepare a short summary of my understanding of the Purif based
on this document and a copy of SCN purif promos, and post it later
tonight.  I would hope that everyone (particularly Scientologists who
have undertaken the Purif) will correct anything that looks like a
mistake from the POV of Scientology in the summary.  It's my hope that
we can arrive at a consensus on exactly what the purif is and what it
is supposed to do.

One further question: I didn't see any description of the role of the
E-Meter. Elizabeth McCoy said that the rundown proceeds until a
floating needle is obtained on the E-Meter? Can you confirm that?  If
not, how do you know when detox has been completed? Is it a set period
of time, or what is it?

Thanks again,
-------
sdb


Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology