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Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 09:13:24 EDT
              <AUTISM@SJUVM.BITNET>
From:         Daniel Mont <D6M@CORNELLA.BITNET>
Subject:      First day of kindergarten

Well, yesterday was Alex's first day of kindergarten.  With a fair amount of
trepidation we put him on bus with backpack and lunchbox.  He seemed excited
about going but we were still unclear as to what he expected.  He had been
to orientation and we talked about kindergarten a lot, but there still is
a barrier there to understanding exactly what Alex conceptualizes.

Anyway, I'm glad to report the day went really well.  It was only half the
class (the first two days of kindergarten they split the class in two and
only half goes one day and the other half the next -- they do that to
be able to spend more time with the children the first day orienting them
to the room, the rules, and the teachers) so it was more manageable for
Alex.  Also they did a lot of structured activities.  Alex liked when they
counted the boys and the girls and had to figure out the total number of kids
and how many more boys there were than girls.  His teacher (who called me
last night to give me a run down on the day's activities) was very impressed
that Alex was able to add, count, and subtract so quickly.  Little does she
know he can also multiply, do some division, add some fractions, etc.  Teachers
never believe us when we say he can do those things. So I figure I'll let
her find out for herself :-) . She was really nice though and obviously very
observant about Alex.  She was also very reassuring about her "prognosis"
about how he will fit in in class.  My worry though isn't really whether
he can take part in structured activities and amuse himself (both of which
he did yesterday quite well).  My concern is his interactions with a room
full of children once the social milieu starts being established.

Alex's new thing is "how to" books.  Once again I have no idea how much
he gets out of them but we have to read a few "chapters" of his how
to books each night.  He was very upset when I read him the chapter of
how a vaccuum cleaner works.  He said he knew how that worked already so
that chapter didn't count.  He wanted to read the chapter on how radar is
used to locate airplanes.  Again, I have *no* idea how well he understands
these things, but learning "how things work" or "the rules" are among
Alex's favorite activities.

Hope everyone's first days of school out there went as well as Alex's!

Dan Mont
d6m@cornella
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Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1992 23:18:00 +1000
              <AUTISM@SJUVM.BITNET>
From:         LNCJB@CC.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU
Subject:      Re: All I have time for today.

Bob,

I don't think you were mixed up - there seems to me to be two types of
analogies - one a comparison of single features (e.g comparing a wheel to
a ball) and the other holistic ( roads and roller coasters). I think you're
right in your suggestion that the difficulty she has with similarities is
a direct result of her viewing the world holistically. The problem may be
not that she can't see the similarities but that she sees too many similarities
and therefore is unable to give a single correct response. I have observed
that she is a very 'correct' child - if she is unsure of the answer to a
particular question, she prefers not to answer rather than to guess and risk
being wrong - I really hope that she will become a little more flexible in
this regard as she gets older.

Sequel to the 'hummen' episode: After I told Kevin about this, he asked Helen
this afternoon:-

KEVIN:     Are you hummen?

HELEN:     I'm not humming.

KEVIN:     No, hummen not humming.

HELEN:     No, I'm Helen.

KEVIN:     What's a human.

HELEN:     That's a person.

I'm still trying to figure this one out, but I think there's no doubt it was
one of her word games this morning. Another proclamation she came out with a
few days ago that "girls have girl babies and boys have boy babies" is also
making me intrigued with the way her mind works.

Carolyn
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Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 09:43:00 +1000
              <AUTISM@SJUVM.BITNET>
From:         LNCJB@CC.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU
Subject:      Re: DMG Vitamin B15

At this point in the discussion of vitamin and mineral supplements, I would
like to issue a note of caution. Since the body of an autistic person is
hypersensitive to most things, if you intend trying supplementation then it
would probably be a good idea to start them off on a very low dose (much
lower than the one usually recommended). A normal dose of any substance
could be extrememly dangerous to a hypersensitive person. I have already
in previous posts spoken about my reactions to normal doses of various
vitamins, but, although I have not tried B15 myself, I am particularly wary
of that, since in the original post it was claimed that it increased antibody
production. A lack of antibodies seems to be one problem we don't have and
from what I have read in recent months about the immune system, it appears
that an overproductive antibody system may be responsible for many of our
auto-immune diseases.

Carolyn
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Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1992 11:44:02 EDT
              <AUTISM@SJUVM.BITNET>
From:         DRZ@SJUVM.BITNET
Subject:      Re: All I have time for today.
              15 Sep 1992 23:18:00 +1000 from <LNCJB@CC.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU>

Is it possible that the "a" in the final question: "are you a human"
is a critical factor in Helen's answers?  It seems like such a small
thing, but "are you human?" maybe very different for her from "are you
a human?"

Bob Zenhausern, Ph.D.        Internet: drz@sjuvm.stjohns.edu
St. John's University        Bitnet: drz@sjuvm.bitnet
SB 15 Marillac               Phone:  718-990-6447
Jamaica, NY 11439            Fax:    718-990-6705
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Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 09:38:05 EDT
              <AUTISM@SJUVM.BITNET>
From:         DOC@VTVM1.BITNET

I was at a loss to provide an appropriate "subject" for this note-- I
want to recount a successful experience that my son just had and I know
from re-reading some of my previous communications that I come off
sounding horribly patronizing about him.  But I will try one more
time to describe his success without sounding totally amazed about it.

To reiterate, Steven is 22 and in his 5th (presumably final) year in
college. (He lives at home and walks or takes the bus to class.)
He became very interested in sports, especially collegiate
football/basketball/baseball, several years ago, and began going
to the home games in his 3rd year.  He loved it and goes to as many
games as he can.  This week, tickets were handed out to students for
the year's BIG GAME in football (the big in-state rivalry), and it is
customary for students to start lining up (camping out) for it about
two days ahead.  Well, the only ones who are out there two days early
are members of fraternities (mostly) and other organizations, who
spell each other in shifts.  Individual students generally arrive
the night before and spend the night so they can be sure of getting
a ticket when the ticket office opens around 8:30 on the official day.

Steven decided to spend the night camping out for his ticket.  He
took a sleeping bag and a pillow and went off at 7:30 pm to first
attend a soccer game and then get in line and sleep on the sidewalk.
When I next saw him, he had bought the ticket and come home for a nap,
then went out for his one class of the day in midafternoon (THAT was
fortunate scheduling) and came back for another nap before dinner.

In telling us about it, he was clearly irritated at the annoyances
it had entailed.  He found it hard to sleep because the other students
were there to party while they waited, so it was noisy.  When he
finally got to sleep during the night, everyone was awakened by a
drunken student -- this was particularly infuriating.  He said he
would never do this again, although he was glad to have the ticket.

But, as annoying as this experience had been for him, especially in
robbing him of sleep which is essential for his good temper, Steven
was able to be fairly philosophical about it, VERY different from
his earlier inability to deal with irritating circumstance and (in
particular) irritating people.   That change is what I characterize
as a success.  He used to avoid potentially annoying situations, and
here he has gone headlong into one and coped with it.  I find this
a very hopeful thing, for life is full of aggravation and heartburn
and the main difference in whether you are soured by it or not is in
your own attitude and how you choose to interpret your experiences
(say I).  I now see Steven as having a lot more control over how he
experiences negative events than he used to, and he is much happier
for it.
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Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1992 00:05:00 +1000
              <AUTISM@SJUVM.BITNET>
From:         LNCJB@CC.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU
Subject:      Withdrawal symptoms

Bill,

Thanks for pointing out the possibility of withdrawal symptoms. I hadn't
considered that before..... it would help to explain many of the headaches
I've suffered in the past that didn't seem to have any obvious cause.

I wonder if it is just the vitamin B though, or could it be that our bodies
can habituate to almost anything that is ingested in large quantities over
a reasonable length of time. I used to be hooked on sugar, fat, chocolate and
fresh cream, which I rarely indulge in these days, but it is only since I
gave them away as part of my regular diet that over indulgence in any of them
will cause headaches the next day and often last several days. I've always
thought that some type of allergic reaction to these foods was possibly the
cause, but this seemed unlikely since I can still maintain a diet high in
the foods over several days without any ill effects. It is only when I stop
eating them that they upset me. It also explains why Chris has been so
'crabby' lately - he has no income now so he has had to go without his
daily chocolate bar. Perhaps we should all join 'Junk Food Anonymous'. :-)

Carolyn
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Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 14:00:24 EDT
              <AUTISM@SJUVM.BITNET>
From:         RJKOPP@SUVM.BITNET
Subject:      Re: DMG Vitamin B15

The discussion on immunology is quite interesting.  I have allergies and
have had a relatively lousy year in respect to them.  There was an article
in Time Magazine about them (June 22nd issue I believe) and they dealt with
some of the releasing of antibodies etc. issue, it was quite informative and
sounds familiar to what Carolyn was mentioning.

One of the pamplets that they have at my doctors on Allergies was on allergies.
They were discussing allergy to cats and this one doctor has been working on
a study that seemed intriguing to me and also might tie in here in some way.
Many people suffer from allergies to cats, typically it's cat saliva which
gets on their fur and comes in contact with us when we pet them or they
brush up against us.  We also can be allergic to the dander on a cat, which
I think they said is the dead layer of skin that wears off and works it's
way into their coat.   Many doctors had advised some patients that one way
to help with it was to bathe their cats often.  Many patients who did this
found their cats getting sick and ultimatly dying on them.  This doctor who
is referenced above began to try to figure out why they would die and found
out that part of what a cat senses within it's fur, somehow causes releases
of certain enzymes which keep a cat's immune system in operation.  When the
people started to wash their cats as they were directed, the triggering agent
in the cat's fur caused the cessation of the creation of antibodies to most
diseases and eventually the cats died due to lack of antibodies to fight
the diseases.  I don't know how related this is to what Carolyn was talking
about but it has caused me to think alot about how immune systems work.
I have two cats only right now I'm not supposed to be allergic to them.
But I found it very interesting.

Thanks,
Ray Kopp
Syracuse, New York
Internet:rjkopp@mailbox.syr.edu
Bitnet:RJKOPP@SUVM.BITNET
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Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 17:48:22 EDT
              <AUTISM@SJUVM.BITNET>
From:         Anne Pemberton <apembert@VDOE386.VAK12ED.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Test message.
              "LNCJB@CC.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU" at Sep 12, 92 12:28 am

Carolyn, Your test message sent Midnight Friday was in my
mailbox when I got home at 5pm Friday. Are we experiencing time
travel???? :-)  Anne
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Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1992 00:02:06 EDT
              <AUTISM@SJUVM.BITNET>
From:         Anne Pemberton <apembert@VDOE386.VAK12ED.EDU>
Subject:      Re: On hungry flies ...
              "DRZ%SJUVM.BitNet@pucc.princeton.edu" at Sep 12, 92 8:07 am

Bob, As you get the kids at the PS 177 online, perhaps they
could answer some of your questions themselves. Just as Z-Man
got my 5th period class to talk about how they think, perhaps
you can coax these children into sharing their minds with you.
Anne
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Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 17:50:33 -0400
              <AUTISM@SJUVM.BITNET>
From:         FARBER_R@SPCVXA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: SEMIOS-L list

Thanks for the well wishes "MK". My 'kids'start tomorrow.
I started today,meetings,paper work...,etc.Looking forward to
a great year.Luck to all.
Rosanne
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Date:         Sat, 12 Sep 1992 00:28:00 +1000
              <AUTISM@SJUVM.BITNET>
From:         LNCJB@CC.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU
Subject:      Test message.

Well, it looks like the Princeton gateway is down again. I sent a reply to
Anne's message about DMG 11 hours ago and it still hasn't 'reproed' here
yet. I've just checked the logs and I see that there have been three others
recorded in that time which I haven't received also, but my message wasn't
amongst them. I guess it's still in limbo somewhere.

The listserv is talking to me O.K. through CUNY, so this is just a test
message to see if this will make it through so that I can use this route to
post more stuff tomorrow (that's tonight for most of you which means that
even after 8 hours sleep, you will be reading it before I wrote it....
(that last 'it' should have been 'this')....confusing isn't it? :-)

Carolyn (feeling very depressed because my links with the 'real world' have
           been cut). :-(
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Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 07:05:24 EDT
              <AUTISM@SJUVM.BITNET>
From:         Anne Pemberton <apembert@VDOE386.VAK12ED.EDU>
Subject:      On hungry flies ...
              "LNCJB@CC.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU" at Sep 11, 92 10:45 am

Carolyn,
    Enjoyed the story of the Fly in a Bowl of Soup. Seems that
the difficulties with analogies is a clue to identifying autism
??? When you sent me Helen's WISC score, the 0 raw score/ 3
scaled score for the "Similarities" subtest stood out
immediately. (And I'll be checking my students' WISC tests for
similar patterns as soon as we settle into the new school year
enough for me to do such things!) I'm wondering if the degree
of difficulty with analogies tracks the degree of autism
present. If so, it could be an excellent "quick-n-dirty" means
of identification, esp with older kids.

     Of course, my next question will be: do we try to help
Helen (and others) learn analogies so they can enjoy and
appreciate the richness of the language .... or do we avoide
them to minimize confusion?  Or some combination of both.

     Dan, Carolyn's adventure with Helen remind me of our
conversation about another analogy: "Put that in your pipe and
smoke it." Did any explanation help you with it at all, or are
you still confused by that expression????

     Anne
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Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 11:47:05 EDT
              <AUTISM@SJUVM.BITNET>
From:         DRZ@SJUVM.BITNET
Subject:      Re: On hungry flies ...
              11 Sep 1992 07:05:24 EDT from <apembert@VDOE386.VAK12ED.EDU>

Anne asks a very interesting question.  Should we try to help Helen learn
to use analogy or should we find ways to avoid it?   The first is called
remediation -- give more and more of what a child cannot do.  The
second is called rehabilitation -- decrease the severity of the problem by
finding ways around it.  Rehabilitation has been the rule in physical
disability and remediation, the rule in educational disability.  And somehow
the child with an educational disability is held responsible for having it.
No one asks a blind child to try harder to see.

Bob Zenhausern, Ph.D.        Internet: drz@sjuvm.stjohns.edu
St. John's University        Bitnet: drz@sjuvm.bitnet
SB 15 Marillac               Phone:  718-990-6447
Jamaica, NY 11439            Fax:    718-990-6705
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Date:         Sun, 13 Sep 1992 23:58:46 EDT
              <AUTISM@SJUVM.BITNET>
From:         Anne Pemberton <apembert@VDOE386.VAK12ED.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Hungry flies .......
              "LNCJB@cc.newcastle.edu.au" at Sep 12, 92 7:38 pm

Carolyn,
  I read "artistice as a hungry fly ... " to mean "artistic in
a non-traditional and non-typical way".  What is your
explanation for your analogy??

  One of Steve favorite replies to "How are you?" is "Fine as
Frog's Hair", which I'd accepted and used myself over the
years. Until a few weeks ago when I laid it on Bob Z, and he
asked the meaning, since frog's hair was nonexistent ... to
which I replied that there was, therefore, "Nothing Finer".

   Nicer to be educated, hence colorful, rather than housewife,
hence dumb ??? Yeah, I know the feeling. To know that you've
felt that way in the "ahead of time" Australia, is definitely a
comfort! :-)

    Anne
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Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1992 09:07:34 EDT
              <AUTISM@SJUVM.BITNET>
From:         Dan Mont <D6M@CORNELLA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Hungry flies .......
              12 Sep 1992 19:38:00 +1000 from <LNCJB@CC.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU>

Alex, too, has problems with analogies and metaphors.  He takes language
very literally.  He also is completely "blind" to sarcasm.  I try never to
use sarcasm with Alex (or Simon, for that matter) but one day I was home
with the two boys without Nanette and they were both just being very
exasperating.  Alex wanted a certain kind of snack that we didn't have.
I kept saying that we would buy some at the grocery store when we went
shopping that evening.  He just kept getting more and more upset. Simon
was screaming. I asked him, "how are we supposed to buy it NOW? we are not
at the grocery store and we can't go until Mommy gets home." Both boys kept
up their various noise making activities and I "lost it" for a second and
went over to Alex's little table and said, "OK. We'll buy it here, OK?
You want the snack, well, come, we can just buy some over here"  I said
this is a sarcastic tone of voice that Simon (3 years old) I am *sure*
understood.  Alex got *very* upset and started saying things like, "You
can't buy it here? I don't see any there? How can you buy it here?"  He
took me very literally.  I calmed him down and explained what I did. On
the one hand, I don't want to lose language like that again and upset him.
OTOH, people out in the world *will* use it so it has to be explained to him.

Dan Mont

P.S. The guys did eventually calm down and we had a nice afternoon.
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Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 10:45:00 +1000
              <AUTISM@SJUVM.BITNET>
From:         LNCJB@CC.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU
Subject:      Funny things they say and do (6 years).

While the list is quiet, I thought I would borrow a subject heading from
the misc.kids newsgroup and share Helen's latest with you. I thought about
posting it to that newsgroup but the last time I did that, I spent the next
3 days responding to 'please explain' email. :-( Obviously there are a lot
of people who don't share my weird sense of humour.

Last weekend while I was on the computer (when am I never!), Helen came in
and asked for a piece of paper to do a 'picture'. I gave her two sheets; she
looked a trifle confused and the following conversation took place:-

ME:	What's the matter?

HELEN:	I only asked for one! Do you want to draw a picture too?

ME:	No, sweetheart, they're both for you. I thought you might like to
	draw a picture for yourself and one for me.

HELEN:	You can draw one Mummy.

ME:	I can't draw! I'm about as artistic as a fly in a bowl of soup.

HELEN:	Did he eat much?

ME:	Who?

HELEN:	The fly!

Helen then went to her room to draw her pictures. A short time later, I was
presented with mine and as you've probably guessed....

It WAS a picture of 'a fly in a bowl of soup'.

It looks like I'm really going to have to watch the analogies I use. :-)

Carolyn
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Original-From: 45258-Duncan <ixcim!bill>
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Date:         Wed, 9 Sep 1992 08:17:36 CDT
              <AUTISM@SJUVM.BITNET>
From:         bill@IXCIM.ATT.COM
Subject:      Re: DMG Vitamin B15

Are you looking for references or more information?

Bill Duncan
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Date:         Sat, 12 Sep 1992 08:07:23 EDT
              <AUTISM@SJUVM.BITNET>
From:         DRZ@SJUVM.BITNET
Subject:      Re: On hungry flies ...

I would like to explore the subtypes of autism (assuming they exist).
One obvious distinction is between retarded and not retarded (and how
to tell the difference).  On a more subtle level, Carolyn, Jim, and
Dan all seem to have their own unique traits.  This year I plan to
work with the teachers of the children with autism at PS 177 and ask
them to describe the most salient traits of their students.  I would
like then to see how these cluster and hopefully these clusters will
form the basis of subtypes.  Any suggestions or comments on this
approach?

Bob Zenhausern, Ph.D.        Internet: drz@sjuvm.stjohns.edu
St. John's University        Bitnet: drz@sjuvm.bitnet
SB 15 Marillac               Phone:  718-990-6447
Jamaica, NY 11439            Fax:    718-990-6705
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