From: clements@vax.oxford.ac.uk
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: Clinto and Space Funding
Date: 29 Sep 92 10:09:02 GMT
Organization: Oxford University VAX 6620

In article <1992Sep28.163120.16536@medtron.medtronic.com>, rn11195@sage (Robert Nehls) writes:
> clements@vax.oxford.ac.uk writes:
> : 
> : Japan and Germany have relatively little military spending, and as a result of
> : this they can spend more on government support of civilian R & D programs.
> 
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Japan and Germany had a unique advantage in that they lost WWII, (this
> sounds stupid, but I'm talking about today, not 50 years ago) and weren't
> allowed to have militaries.

Exactly, so they didn't waste money on it (waste isn't quite the right word...
They didn't use the money as effectively as it could on civil R&D).

> Things were tough for them and they did do a lot of things right and for
> that they do deserve a lot of credit. 

So stop denying them it!

> : 
> : >Do you really think that it is a coincidence that
> : >the military and space budget cuts coincide with the Japenese gaining a
> : >technological edge?
> : 
> : Come on... They've had an edge for a *lot* longer than that!
>              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 

[arguments that Japan only gained an 'edge' in the 70s]

Two comments: The Japanese were beating the socks off the UK and European ship
building industry long before the 70s military cuts. I think you're focussing
on the areas where the Japanese are *today* seen as superior and neglecting
those areas where they did well some time back. OK, shipbuilding isn't
necessarily technology driven, but it still requires substantial expertese and,
in this case, the backing of their government. Shipbuilding was the first
'tragetted' industry, in the sense that the Japanese government and industries
wroked together to become preeminant in the world. Cars was the next...

In addition, it seems that the Japanese have had a long term edge in the
'technologies' of personel and project management. You can suiggest that this
is because of their 'regimented society' etc etc and similar cliched comments,
but the fact is that these methods work when transfered to other countries
(like the UK) so it is *not* a cultural thing.

Also the Germans had a technological edge long before the Japanese...

> : 
> : This is where that military money can and should be spent. However, the typical
>                                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Dave, this is exactly what I was talking about.  So many people can say
> where the money should go, but nobody knows where it goes when its cut from
> the military budget.  It just vanishes and leaves thousands of people out of
> work.  As I stated in my previous post.  Until the programs are set up to
> orderly divert the money to another R and D effort, it should stay in the
> military budget where at least it is doing some good.

If your government is not accountable in the sense that you can't find where
all your tax money goes, then there is something really wrong and someone (I
would suggest the person at the top, Georgie boy) deserves the chop!

I would suggest one area that need serious consideration are lung cancer
subsidies (ie. the money given to the tobacco producers which goes to subsidise
lung cancer all over the world) and other agricultural subsidies. At least
Europe ios making some moves on the Common Agricultural Policy (CAP), I have
seen no sign of similar moves in the US (though I may have missed them). Also,
a great deal of wasted GNP can be sorted out by changing your ridiculous legal
system (70% of lawers in the world are in the US, and all earning lots of
money that could go to real commercial use elsewhere), and getting your medical
system sorted. You can lambast the UK and other Eropean countries for having
doctrinally unsound socialised (gasp!) medical systems, but the fact is *our
health services are ****cheaper***** in terms of GNP than yours. The legal and
medical issues are in some sense linked too because fo the degree of litigation
in US medicine.

-- 
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Dave Clements, Oxford University Astrophysics Department
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clements @ uk.ac.ox.vax			|  Umberto Eco is the *real* Comte de
dlc      @ uk.ac.ox.astro		|           Saint Germain...
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Newsgroups: sci.space