HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Selective Memory?
Date: 21 Dec 92 19:13:27 GMT
Organization: People's Front of Judea

In article <BzL1F1.Bqv@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> dbshapco@napier.uwaterloo.ca (Brad Shapcott) writes:
>
>After running through this batch of soc.bi, I feel compelled to comment
>about the general tone of the group.  About this insane need to beat up
>on each other to the detriment of any useful dialogue on real topics, to
>an apparent love of disqualifying the humanity of others on the flimsiest
>evidence, and to the flip ego posturing dominating many posts.  Well,
>the first thing I would like to know is, am I the only one that feels this?
>
>[...]
>
>Weren't we once better than this?  Didn't we once make a lot more effort at
>liking each other?  Or is it possible, that being in a different situation,
>I'm more sensitive to things I used to filter out?

I think most of the worst cases are cross-posts from soc.motss
(except for the "slave" thread and its spinoffs).

The problem is that soc.bi and soc.motss have similar areas of
interests but very different cultures. In particular, the level
of free-floating hostility is much higher on soc.motss. One
antidote is to put a lot of soc.bi ESacharine in the crossposted
threads (you know, ESnuggles, ENibbles, etc.). That should drive
off most of the chronically angry.

This is a problem for some of us; I suppose I might be called an
EDiabetic, since I have a very low tolerance for ESyrup. Whenever
someone's post says something like "This is my first post here,
but" or "What's a muffin, anyway?" I hit 'k' posthaste. And the
first time I posted here, I said nothing about muffinhood;
somehow I snuck through unscathed.
-- 
Andrew Solovay    
                "I know that, in America and under capitalism,
                 I am the freest woman in history."
                                --- Camille Paglia
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: gtoal@pizzabox.demon.co.uk (Graham Toal)
Subject: Re: Liberty (was something relevant abou
Organization: Cuddlehogs Anonymous
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 02:33:28 GMT

In article <memo.827953@cix.compulink.co.uk> iwatters@cix.compulink.co.uk writes:
:To keep on topic, what's the collective noun for bisexuals?  A diversity?!?

A grope of bisexuals.

G
Newsgroups: soc.bi,soc.motss
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Subject: Re: Liberty (was something relevant about CO-2 long ago...)
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 04:30:19 GMT

In article <BzMwIs.AJ3@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu>
dbshapco@napier.uwaterloo.ca (Brad Shapcott) writes:

>Reply to the *whole* *content* of the post or
>none of it.  Which is why I've ignored every response I've seen so
>far.

I spent quite a little effort, responded to your entire
thrust and indulged in no invective.  What about that?

>You all strike me as a pretty hateful and reactive bunch,
>who have no quarter for anyone outside of your political
>sphere.

This in no way characterizes my response to you.  What about
that?

-- 
[Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin]
[Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson]
[Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888]
[---------> Discrimination, Bigotry, and Hate are not Family Values <---------]
From: cjmchale@dsg.cs.tcd.ie (Ciaran McHale)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Attack of the Separatists
Date: 22 Dec 92 15:41:22 GMT
Organization: DSG, Dept. of Computer Science, Trinity College Dublin

In <MUFFY.92Dec21082326@remarque.berkeley.edu>
muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy) writes:
>rsr@soda.berkeley.edu (Roy S. Rapoport) writes:
>>>I get the impression that you're saying that only
>>>women are feminists, and men can only be "pro-feminist."  I don't think
>>>that that is true at all.
>>Fair enough.  You have a right to your own opinion, of course.
>
>As do all the other feminists I know who think this (the vast majority,
>both male and female).

One reason why some women dislike it when a man says "I'm a feminist"
is that it can be used to mean "I'm not sexist. How could I be when I'm
a feminist?" If a woman listening to this line _knows_ that the man is
blatently sexist then she is likely to be a bit peeved. That's been my
general experience. Perhaps opinions on whether or not there can be
male feminists differ greatly from one country to another.


Ciaran.
-- 
---- Ciaran McHale (cjmchale@dsg.cs.tcd.ie)
\bi/ Department of Computer Science, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland.
 \/  Telephone: +353-1-7021539 FAX: +353-1-6772204
Newsgroups: soc.bi,soc.motss
From: un032230@wvnvms.wvnet.edu
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: HELP!!!!
Date: 22 Dec 92 19:07:07 GMT
Organization: West Virginia Network for Educational Telecomputing

In article <1992Dec22.153012.10369@penet.fi>, an1428@anon.penet.fi writes:
> I posted this earlier but I guess it didn't make it.
> So, here it is again....I am sorry for any repeats.
> I am a WM with no experinces, but can't seem to get
> these (I don't mean to sound derogatory or anything)
> thoughts out of my head....it has gotten to the point
> that I think the only way I can resolve my feelings
> is to "try it to see if I like it".  But I am at a loss
> as to what to do...or say...or anything really.
> .
> I guess the best term would be lost!
> I have ZERO experinces in anything like this, so your
> help would be great!
> .
> The Masked Muffin.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------

First thing, relax!  COnfusion and doubt are normal- VERY normal.  There's also
nothign at all wrong with having thoughts about members of the same sex. 
That's the basics right there, all you have to do now is try to accept that you
have these feelings, explore them in fantasy if in no other way.  If you can
become comfortable with the idea, then go for it.  Find yourself someone you
care about, someone who you know will treat you well and talk to you if you
need it.  The first experience as a bisexual can be very stressful for alot of
people.  YOu need to realize that, and not be scared if it doesn't seem to be
what you imagined it would be.  Thats about the best advice I can
give....except that you shouldn't try to STOP thinking about it, or ignore it,
but that you shoudl spend time seriously thinking about it, and exploring how
the idea makes yu feel.
From: ke94002@black.ox.ac.uk (Daniel J Mitchell)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: a silly question
Date: 3 Jan 93 20:10:04 GMT
Organization: Oh, come /on/..
Originator: ke94002@black

In article <93003.104859DICKSONE@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> DICKSONE@QUCDN.QueensU.CA (Len) writes:
>|"I shall surpress my every urge."                                       |
>|       -The Tick, when asked to act `normal' when Arthur's sister visits|

 Yow! Tick reference! 

 <sfx: is suddenly suffused with a desire to post for no reason at all>

 ObBiContent. Um. Sorry, I got carried away.. It's not often you see such
good comics referred to outside of rec.arts.comics, after all. That's my
excuse, at least..<blush>

--
Daniel Mitchell == ke94002@black.ox.ac.uk == bi furry juggler
From: C.G.C.vanDijk@IO.TUDelft.NL
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: YES!  It works!!!
Date: 28 Dec 1992 06:49:01 -0600
Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

> From: mlloyd@ocf.berkeley.edu (M. Lloyd)
> > I wear my hair like Jesus wore it (Halleluja I adore it).
>
> he ...  makes silly rhymes.

This was a quote too, I'm afraid :-), from JC Superstar.  Even Elf quotes
from there.  (If you are getting tired Elf, let me wish you strength;
at least you converted me!)

> I think we'll let him stay :-)
> hugs
> Mike

I could wish for nothing more :-)  Unless, of course, somebody gives me:
>
> From: gtoal@rachel.ibmpcug.co.uk (Graham Toal)
> ... knuffels en smekkies

Thanks for all the hugs.  It is _very_ nice to be received into soc.bi
like this.  Love you all,
                              Casper

Casper G.C. van Dijk               "Broken words,
Delft University of Technology      never meant to be spoken"
the Netherlands                                    Bob Dylan

Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: STella@thelema.uucp (STella)
Subject: Re: This Whole Penis Thing ...
Organization: Idiosyncratic Anarchic Order
Distribution: soc.bi
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 11:04:17 GMT

In article <17848@pitt.UUCP> bigrigg@.cs.pitt.edu.cs.pitt.edu (Michael W. Bigrigg) writes:
>iw@tosser.Rational.COM (The_Devine_Dolly) writes:
>: Not sure about my interpretation, but I do know that I wish men
>: had detachable penises, I really do.  I really don't think that
>: I would have any gender issues at all if that were the case.

>Gee, my ex-girlfriend used to say that she wished she had detachable
>breasts.  My point is that if I had detachable parts, I wouldn't be
>so much human as a Mr. Potato-Head. 

Whereas your lady, like Nurse Jones, could be a Swiss Army wife?

I'm for mutable bodies, to go with mutable minds....

STella (who isn't typing much this weekend)
From: orc@vpnet.chi.il.us (david parsons)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Pet peeve of the day.
Keywords: Grumble Moan Complain
Date: 3 Jan 93 15:37:58 GMT
Organization: Department of Atomic Text Units

In article <1993Jan3.032358.29673@news.columbia.edu> jsb16@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Jennifer S Broekman) writes:
|In article <1993Jan2.211241.23007@vpnet.chi.il.us> 
|orc@vpnet.chi.il.us (david parsons) writes:
|> I'm filling the vital need for the one in the gutter.
|
|Get your mind out of the gutter. You're blocking my periscope.

  Errr, that's not my *mind...
                ____
  david parsons \bi/ for a good time, call ... orc@sybase.com
                 \/
Newsgroups: soc.bi,soc.motss
From: eleanor@cbnews.cb.att.com (Piglet)
Subject: Re: Liberty (was something relevant about CO-2 long ago...)
Organization: AT&T
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 18:05:44 GMT

In article <BznvL2.F8n@cck.coventry.ac.uk> idx009@cck.coventry.ac.uk (the Crisco Kid) writes:
>In article <BznGFH.KBq@unix.amherst.edu> twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) writes:
>>Assuming for the moment that Andrea Dworkin's suggestions are
>>clueless, inappropriate, and nonsensical (and it's been my experience
>>that feminists who are perceived to be such are usually maligned by a
>>hysterical, incredibly myopic media) it wouldn't invalidate my quote.
>>
>>>Do they teach you the fine art of
>>>putdown's at Amherst?
>>
>>They teach us something about grammar, at least.
>
>Tim, Tim; glass houses, dear friend.  "A hysterical... media"?

Kay, Kay, Kay; you're sweet, you're adorable, and you're wrong.

"Media" is a collective noun, which may be referenced in the
singular _or_ the plural, depending on context...



Piglet, shameless grammar snob
From: C.G.C.vanDijk@IO.TUDelft.NL
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: YES!  It works!!!
Date: 28 Dec 1992 11:46:07 -0600
Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

> This was a quote too, I'm afraid :-), from JC Superstar.

Sniff.  I feel very silly for getting my own quotes wrong.  Must
have been the excitement of being able to quote at all.  Forget it please..

Casper

Casper G.C. van Dijk               "Broken words,
Delft University of Technology      never meant to be spoken"
the Netherlands                                    Bob Dylan
From: urlichs@smurf.sub.org (Matthias Urlichs)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Het males & bi-femmes
Date: 31 Dec 1992 21:28:44 +0100
Organization: University of Karlsruhe, FRG
NNTP-Posting-Host: 127.0.0.1

In soc.bi, article <1992Dec31.041804.23189@nwnexus.WA.COM>,
  elf@halcyon.com (Elf Sternberg) writes:
> 
> >   So perhaps it is just as well that for most het males these 
> >possibilities lie purely within the realms of fantasy.
> 
>    Also, sez you.  I was doin' stuff like what you suggest six years
> ago.  Your post really said more about how you feel towards women than
> it did anything about polyamorous arrangement.
> 
To paraphrase a common saying, "Don't attribute to misogyny what can
adequately be explained by inexperience".

[ This is not to be construed as a flame against, or judgment of, anybody. ]

IMHO, this is more a problem of cultural perception than anything else.
"Everybody knows" that all men fantasize about two bi women and all that.
The idea that the reverse is equally true seems to slowly emerge into
pub(l)ic ;-) knowledge, but old ideas die hard... though faster than the
people who hold them, fortunately.

-- 
I'm immortal. I'm bored. Let's party.
-- 
Matthias Urlichs  --  urlichs@smurf.sub.org -- urlichs@smurf.ira.uka.de   /(o\
Humboldtstrasse 7 -- 7500 Karlsruhe 1 -- Germany  --  +49-721-9612521     \o)/
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: safarj@aix.rpi.edu (Jonah Emanuel Safar)
Subject: Pet peeve of the day.
Summary: That says it all.
Keywords: Grumble Moan Complain
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 02:48:05 GMT

 Just a random peeve of the day... I hate when people think you are
ignoring them when you don't just hop up and answer a page, or a  
message, email, talk request, post or whatever immeandiately.  Did
it ever occur to these people that I might be busy, or away...
or that my machine here on campus has done one of its usual crashes?

 And besides what everyone thinks, I do have a life (well, sometimes))
and am _not_ on the computer all the time....

 <Wanders off grumbling.>

 Maybe I've just had a bad year... maybe the next one will be better...
Does a grumpy dragon get any hugs for asking?

-Points (Grump)
-- 
________________________________________________________________________________
 If the President won't do it to his wife, he'll do it to his Country. -Unknown
________________________________________________________________________________
Jonah E. Safar             R.P.I., Troy, NY              EMail to:safarj@rpi.edu
From: arodgers@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Angus H Rodgers)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Liberty (was something relevant about CO-2 long ago...)
Date: 21 Dec 92 21:50:11 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London

In <1992Dec21.185313.19414@netcom.com>
solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay) writes:

>If I may quote from today's Miss Manners column:

>  Miss Manners has seen many a person won over to a good cause
>  through polite appeals to reason or compassion, under
>  conditions ranging from drawing-room discussion to picketing.

>  But she has never yet heard of anyone who was under rude attack
>  killing the instinct for self-defense and saying: "Wait a
>  minute--I believe you have a point there. It's a good thing you
>  yelled and threw paint at me because it made me realize that
>  you are right and I was wrong. I appreciate your calling this
>  to my attention."

Um ... pardon me for being so self-centred ... but this is *exactly*
how I have reacted, not only to rude attacks, but to violence and
attempts at sexual seduction!

>But then, Miss Manners is a conservative (or, in motss parlance,
>"fascist").

... whereas I am what is politely known as an "idiot". :-)

[Sorry, everybody; no need to waste bandwidth on replying to
this; I'm just not in a serious mood today. ... Thank God! Yippee!
... but at least I deleted soc.motss from the Newsgroups: line.
People in soc.bi are probably getting used to me now.]
--
Gus Rodgers,  Dept. of Computer Science, |  [Profound thought for 1993]
Queen Mary & Westfield College, Mile End |     "Philishave is about
Road, London, England.   +44 71 975 5241 |      personal choice" 
E-mail (JANET):   arodgers@dcs.qmw.ac.uk |             -- TV advert
Newsgroups: soc.bi,soc.motss
From: rsr@ocf.berkeley.edu (Roy S. Rapoport)
Newsgroups: soc.bi,alt.sex.bondage
Subject: So you want to email me, eh?
Date: 31 Dec 1992 08:02:25 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: tornado.berkeley.edu

Due to some incredible amounts of stupidity my regular machine where I do my
posting, soda.berkeley.edu is down until further notice.

Not that I'm arrogant enough to believe too many people read me (well, I
think quite a few people read me ; it's just that most of them probably
don't care), but there were some people who I was emailing with ... 

So ... my address, until otherwise noted, is rsr@ocf.berkeley.edu ...

Not that you cared :)

-roy


-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roy S. Rapoport          rsr@soda.berkeley.edu             rsr@ocf.berkeley.edu
"Letters from you make me feel good."  -Laura Creighton
DISCLAIMER:  "I meant every word of it, but I doubt anyone else did."
From: tal@plts.uucp (Tom Limoncelli)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: More words stuff
Date: 23 Dec 1992 10:29:46 -0500
Organization: P.L.T.S., North Plainfield, NJ, USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: plts.uucp

In article <9212230233.AA03738@pizzabox.demon.co.uk> gtoal@pizzabox.demon.co.uk (Graham Toal) writes:

>Tom Limoncellus came out with a brilliant one the other day.  I wish I'd
>saved it.  In fact, it was so good I may go back and look for it.

I did?  I wish I remembered it!

Tom
-- 
Tom Limoncelli -- tal@plts.uucp (home) -- tal@warren.mentorg.com (work)
Heros falling to the ground / like hell's magnet / pulls me down / on my knees
/ I try to please his eyes / his idol eyes. / Jerking motions won't revive him
/ mouth to mount resusitation / I just lay down beside him / and idolize.
Newsgroups: soc.bi,soc.motss
From: ry@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (ryerson.schwark)
Subject: Re: Liberty (was something relevant about CO-2 long ago...)
Organization: UNIX System Laboratories, Summit, NJ
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 15:25:29 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.114848.11713@panix.com> mara@panix.com (Mara Chibnik) writes:
>
>I've already written one rather angry letter to Brad.  I'll try not
>to write any more to or in answer to him.  But I am really  very
>angry, and the main reason I deleted the rest of his article is that
>he goes on to say some stuff that offended me as deeply as anything
>I've ever seen in soc.motss.

Me too, particularly the ending which I read to say "I've really stuck
my neck out, so even if I being really offensive and wrong, you damn
well better not call me on it."  I am at a loss on how to respond
to it without spending hours and hours writing, and given that I worked
16 hours yesterday, and will probably do the same today, I don't have
the time, even if I had the patience.

Ry
between phone calls with folks about Novell's agreement to
acquire USL from AT&T.  You heard it here first.
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: Liberty (was something relevant about CO-2 long ago...)
Organization: Elitist Usenet Administrators, Turkey Division
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 19:16:03 GMT

In article <BzoDAD.Iwx@cck.coventry.ac.uk> idx009@cck.coventry.ac.uk (the Crisco Kid) writes:

>In article <1992Dec22.180544.23713@cbnews.cb.att.com> eleanor@cbnews.cb.att.com (Piglet) writes:
>
>>"Media" is a collective noun, which may be referenced in the
>>singular _or_ the plural, depending on context...
>
>Media *are not* a collective noun (or, at least they shouldn't be).
>...
>Kay, prescriptivist Bad Man and pedantophiliac :)

<gasp>  And *wrong*!  And *very* *very* *wrong*!

Even I can tell, dear Kay.  If you like, rephrase

>>"Media" is a collective noun

to

>>The word "media" is a collective noun

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / 
\  / twpierce@unix.amherst.edu /               Rocks say goodbye.
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) / 
Xref: sparky soc.bi:17243 soc.motss:53598
From: joe@spdcc.com (Joseph Francis)
Newsgroups: soc.bi,soc.motss
Subject: Re: Wot! Language again?
Date: 23 Dec 92 15:01:26 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1992Dec23.150126.5166
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

My personal list of stupid words, often used.

Mecca (mek-ahhhhh): if anyone has ever been to Saudi Arabia (I have)
and passed people on their way to Mecca for the Haj (I have: and
furthermore, it is also Medina, and other holy sites) they could
understand that I can't imagine a stranger conjunction than a place of
ritualized public holy self-deprivation and silly-ceremoniousness
culminating in mass circulation around a curtain-draped cube being
compared to, say, Amsterdam friday night on the Warmoesstraat.

Gay Fascism: Is it just me or is it really great that a 'faggot' is
being qualified as a 'fascist' - which means of course, a bundle of
sticks or rods - 'fascia'. Furthermore, there seems little relation
between idealized /nationalistic/ cult-violence and control and a
typical bubble-butt blueboy centerfold, however carefully laid-out.
Gay organization seems to be an impossibility, on the bubble-butt
hairless level.

Gotta go...
-- 
US Jojo; damp, slighly soiled, but tasty nonetheless.
From: mls@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (mike.siemon)
Subject: Re: Liberty (was something relevant about CO-2 long ago...)
Organization: AT&T
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 16:38:27 GMT
Summary: Whorf/Sapir

In article <BzL08y.G9D@demon.co.uk> gtoal@pizzabox.demon.co.uk (Graham Toal)
writes:

>that language influences behaviour has been totally discredited.  I think
>its called the Whorf Hyothesis or something like that.  Most of the
>linguists I know argue forcibly that language adapts to the needs and
>environment of its users, not vice-versa.

There are several "levels" to the hypothesis.  The "strong" version 
is that language "determines" thought.  The implications are that if
your language does not provide a (direct) means of expressing some-
thing, you *won't* think it.  This version fails, pretty resoundingly
(e.g., in color terms, one of the classic tests, languages may have
few or many words or phrase-making capabilities for color description
-- but the existence or non-existence of these does not make any real
difference with regard to perceptual/operational distinctions of color.)
The failing of the "strong" Whorf hypothesis is that it fails to allow
for *all* languages being open, periphrastically, to say *anything*
that is sayable in any other language (maybe less "elegantly" and with
the omission of whatever it is that "artful" language conveys.)

A weaker form of the hypothesis is that our language may predispose us
differentially to certain forms of thought.  This may or may not be so
-- as soon as you avoid linguistic determinism, it becomes *very* hard
to construct any controllable test for this, or even to know what it
might mean.  The "weak" Whorf hypothesis is really no more than a tauto-
logy: our languages express our culture, which also shows in the common
themes and materials of our "thoughts."  We learn our languages, and
our "predispositions" for thinking at the same time; they are, in some
sense, the "same" thing.

-- 
Michael L. Siemon		   "Oh, stand, stand at the window,
					As the tears scald and start;
mls@panix.com			   You shall love your crooked neighbor
(please note address)			With your crooked heart."
From: landman@hal.COM (Howard Landman)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Lurkers
Date: 31 Dec 92 01:45:44 GMT
Organization: HaL Computer Systems, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: bang.hal.com

In article <BzoKLH.9A4@ibmpcug.co.uk> shelly@rachel.ibmpcug.co.uk (Shelly DelVeccio) writes:
>OK, try this: "Hi, shelly, are ya lesbian? Write me and I'll send ya
>sumpthin."
>
>Appropriate or no? You make the call.

No.  In a first message, you want to make a good impression.  Therefore, the
following would be better:

"Hi, Shelly, are you lesbian?  If so, write me and I'll send you something
 further.  If not, sorry I bothered you, and have a nice day."

Manners are important.  :-)  So is spelling, when you care enough to send
the very best.

OK. ;-) .-) :-)  I'm partly kidding.  I don't think such a message is really
appropriate for a first email, except perhaps if you are truly desperate for
someone to talk to and think that only a True Lesbian (TM) could possibly
understand you and don't know of any personally.  Even in that case, it's
much sweeter to warm up by asking about something else, like perhaps something
the recipient posted earlier.  And to open up by saying a little about yourself
before asking such intimate questions.

I could go on, but it's too much like trying to make a silk purse out of a
sow's ear.

	Howard