HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 12 Aug 1992 06:38:55 EDT
From:         Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Dubious history

Dan Graham,

You wrote, "John Calvin, who had marvelous insights into grace and
salvation ruled Geneva with an iron fist, and made himself a mockery.
People were calling their dogs and toilets 'Johns.'"  I have no
desire to defend Calvin, but are you sure that the term "John" for a
toilet came from John Calvin?  The relevant entry in the _ Oxford
English Dictionary _ (2d ed.) says: "A lavatory, water-closet.  Slang
(Chiefly U.S.)"  The earliest reported usage is a 1753 rule book for
Harvard University.

I knew the word "jakes" meaning a privy was older so I looked that
up.  The OED2 said, "origin unascertained; it has been suggested to
be from the proper name Jacques, Jakes, or from Jakke 'Jack' ..."
"Jacques" is not the same as "Jean", which was the original French
form of Calvin's name.

You also said, "Aquinas was literally, under the sword to say what
was 'politically' correct in his writings."  I make no claim to be an
expert on either the life or the writings of St. Thomas Aquinas, but
I've never heard that claim before.  Do you have any evidence to
support it?

Marty Helgesen
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Date:         Wed, 12 Aug 1992 10:50:58 CDT
Reply-To:     bradk%isdgsm@rtsg.mot.com
From:         Brad Kaiser <bradk%isdgsm@RTSG.MOT.COM>
Subject:      re: How important is the BIBLE?
X-To:         CHRISTIA%ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU@motgate.mot.com
              11 Aug 1992 21:33:01 EST <9208120244.AB28290@motgate.mot.com>

Kerry Stephenson writes:

>> I absolutely, totally agree with Jesse on this issue.  I find his
>> interpretation to be inerrant :-) (I couldn't resist that one.)

>> The Bible is sufficient, complete, and inerrant.

The only problem with this statement is that, to my mind, and in the
opinion of a great many other sincere, believing Christians, it
contradicts Scripture.

Scripture teaches us quite clearly that the Church founded by Jesus
Christ (see Mt 16:13ff) is the guarantor and custodian of the
Christian Faith.  In 1 Timothy 3:15, we read

    ... you should know how to behave in the household of God, which
    is the Church of the Living God, the pillar and foundation of
    truth.

St. Paul speaks also of the Church as the "household of God" in
Ephesians 2:19ff, he says it is "built upon the foundation of the
apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the capstone."

Nowhere, however, does Scripture teach that it is _sufficient_.

Here is what one sincere, believing early Christian said about that
Church:

    "...[T]he greatest and most ancient Church known to all, founded and
    organized at Rome by [] Peter and Paul, [is] that Church which has the
    tradition and faith which comes down to us after having been announced
    to men by the Apostles.  For with this Church, because of its superior
    origin, all Churches must agree ...  and it is in her that the
    faithful everywhere have maintained the Apostolic tradition."
       -- St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, c. 180 A.D., 3,3,3.

(I realize that many people will have a problem with what I have said
here.  However, I want to point out that there are ways other than
'sola scriptura' for sincere, believing Christians to understand God's
message for us.  I am *NOT* trying to bludgeon the rest of the world
into joining the Catholic Church.)

May God bless you richly today!

Brad Kaiser
(bradk%isdgsm@rtsg.mot.com)

  "Hatred destroys.  Only love creates."
            -- St. Maximilian Kolbe, shortly before his arrest and
               martyrdom at the hands of the Nazis.
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Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 05:33:00 EDT
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      Bible axiomatic?

<NOT TMB @ LSUVM>

Tom:

You write:

 > For the Christian the Bible is his apologetic starting point.
 > The truth, therefore, of the Bible is assumed by the Christian.
 > It is the very nature of a child of God to believe that his
 > Father's Word, as recorded in the Bible, is completely true
 > from cover to cover.

This is simply not an accurate description of all Christians. It is
true of SOME Calvinists, those in the tradition of Cornelius van
Til, for example.  But there are other Christians who, for example,
believe in the inerrancy of the Scriptures, but who do not start out
by assuming it. They undertake to prove it, by the evidence of
fulfulled prophecy or my other means. An example is Josh McDowell,
author of EVIDENCE THAT DEMANDS A VERDICT and other works.  I am not
concerned for the moment with whether his line of argument succeeds.
My point is that it is one that a Christian can take -- unless you
are prepared to say that McDowell cannot be called a Christian
because his belief in the inerrancy of Scripture is a conclusion
rather than a premise.

You also seem to be saying that anyone who trusts God will naturally
trust the Bible. But this does not follow. Someone might trust God
and not believe that God is speaking through the Bible, and
therefore not trust the Bible.  Let me pin this down by taking a
particular example. Around 200 AD, give or take a little, Melito of
Sardis, concerned about the attitude that he ought to take toward
the Apocrypha, made a special trip to Palestine to find out for
himself just which books the Jews there regarded as canonical. He
came back with a list that consisted of the usual 39 Old Testament
books recognized by Calvinists, minus the book of Esther. (You will
note that Esther and the Song of Songs are the only two Old
Testament books never quoted in the New, and that Esther is the only
OT book (I think) not represented among the scrolls found at
Qumran.) His Bible, therefore, would have differed from yours by one
book. Would you say that his refusal to believe the book of Esther
amounted to a refusal to believe God? He would reply that he was
willing to believe whatever God has said -- he simply did not think
that Esther was part of what God had said.

 Yours,
 James Kiefer
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Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1992 15:56:09 -0600
From:         Vernon Galloway <gallowav@CC.GETTYSBURG.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Toleration of Immorality

In Message Tue, 18 Aug 1992 03:51:00 EDT,
  Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET> writes:

>Vernon,
>
>Yes, but on the other hand, we all sin.  Sinning privately while
>pretending to virtue is hypocrisy, which Christ denounced repeatedly.
>There are times when Christians should refuse to associate with other
>Christians who sin in a particularly serious manner.  When this is
>done by a church it is known as excommunication, disfellowshipping,
>or shunning.  However, it should be done in the spirit of Matt 18:15-
>17 and 2 Thes. 3:14.  Excommunication, as St. Paul said, is for the
>purpose of making the sinner ashamed so that he will repent.
>
>Not associating socially with someone because he is a "bad companion"
>who might lead us to join him in his sins is just a matter of avoid-
>ing occasions of sin.  This can be complicated by the possibility
>that if I associate with someone because I know that I have no incli-
>nation to join his sins, a "weaker brother" who would be tempted
>might think that its okay to associate with him because I do.  There
>is no hard and fast rule for such situations.  It is a matter of
>prudent judgement.
>
>Marty Helgesen

Marty, Thanks for the addition to my post, I agree with your comments.

Vernon


Vernon Galloway
Gettysburg College
MicroComputer Technician
gallowav@gettysburg.edu
From: FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET (zane of dhahran)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: BIBLE
Date: 16 Aug 92 09:13:58 GMT
Organization: King Fahd University of Petroleum and Minerals, S.A.
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Dear Jesse,

     Our faith has holes in it too.  The wounds in Christ's feet and hands,
and the spear hole in His side.
     Thank you Lord Jesus, for being the faithful One, even when on the
cross you cried, "why have you forsaken me?"  You vindicate us in our
ignorance.
     Thank you Lord Jesus, for the Holy Scripture, which lets us know these
things.
     Back to you Jesse, sorry I got carried away there.  Do you have a
favorite book of the Bible?  I like Genesis in particular in the Hebrew
Scripture, with Song of Solomon (Canticles) right up there.  In the N.T. I
like John, Colossians, and probably Revelation the best... at least right now.
     Just out of curiosity have you ever read the Book of Enoch?
     Which translation do you like best?  I like The Recovery Version N.T. and
the New American Bible.  I read the NIV most frequently but I have a few gripes
with it.  Right after I gave in to Divine Love, I ran into Gordon Fee who turne
d me on to the NIV, and it sort of has become the family's standard.
     Here's a question for you.  Before the Bible was canonized (or even writte
n) how did Christians get along?  This isn't a trick question - I want to know
how you understand this...            Peace in the Living Christ, Zane.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1992 02:04:30 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: My first sermon! Tonight!! ARRGH!
              13 Aug 1992 16:19:49 EST from <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>

Ian:

I found your reaction to giving your sermon rather interesting.  Before
I logged so many hours in teaching and acting, I found that I was
*extremely* nervous (to the point of nausea; sometimes I thought I
was having an anxiety attack, and I was often claustrophobic) before
the event; perfectly calm, composed, and relaxed during it; and
shook like crazy when I sat down.  People often told me that they
were surprised that I wasn't nervous.  (A lot *they* knew!)

It gets easier.  As for sermons, prayer helps a *lot* to take care
of the nervousness.

Congratulations!  You survived!

Love INC,
         ---Kerry
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Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 12:21:56 -0700
From:         MARK DRAKE <DRAKE@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU>
Subject:      praise
X-To:         christia@asuvm.inre.asu.edu

	The air conditioning in out house is finally getting fixed.  I've had
to spend time there in the afternoons using the computer, and it was HOT.
110 F outside!  Whenever I got a glass of water, it would diappear by the time
I got back to the computer!  I think I drank 2 gallons (5 or 6 L?) in a few
hours.  We are thrilled that we will have AC again, and can move back to our
house.
	We have been staying at our landlord's house, since he was in London.
He's been back the past week, and I think we have had a favorable impact.  Not
all christians are freaks.  :-)

	Praise God for Air conditioning!

Mark
Metropolitan Phoenix Area
Valley of the Sun
Arizona USA
drake@asuchm.la.asu.edu

PS.  Another nice thing - our electric bill will be really low this month!  :-)
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 15:45:23 EDT
From:         Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: update

Bernice,  All of our prayers should at least implicitly follow the
pattern of Christ's prayer in the Garden:  Father, if it be your will,
but not my will but yours be done.  I think in the situation you are in,
just praying that God will resolve the matter as He sees best is the
best you can do.  I am praying for you and your mother, too.

Marty Helgesen
From: CORJB@RHODES.BITNET (j.b. cormier)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Alleged changes in Catholic doctrine (Was something else
Date: 18 Aug 92 14:26:14 GMT
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Sorry.  I knew I should have looked for info before posting that one.

Again, I am profusely sorrry.

Jason
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Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1992 12:41:00 +1000
From:         Ken Diefenbach <DIEFENBAK@TOPAZ.UCQ.EDU.AU>
Subject:      Re: Scouting Ceremonies
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU

Darren

      Even if it is 2/3rds of my life ago, when I joined boy scouts I don't
recall candles being used in a darkened room. I don't know if that's a
difference between Australia and the U.S., but that's the way it was with me.
As for the religious observances, which were in my experience conducted as
chapel-type services and _pointedly_ Christian in their nomination of God in
spite of most being nominal at best Christians, most of the guys endured it in
the same way as they endured religious instruction in school.

      Not to disagree with _everything_ you said however: any child molester
who is obviously unrepentant/unregenerated has no place in the bush camping
with kids. As a parent I must admit I would not send my kids out with a
homosexual scoutmaster. I wouldn't send them out under a scoutmaster who
displays a lot of other characteristics either - wrt sexual activities _or_not_.
I may(?) be sounding judgemental, but my kids are very special to me.

Ken Diefenbach
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Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 15:41:51 EDT
From:         dave talaga x2752 <talaga@E5SB.OSDHW.SYR.GE.COM>
Subject:      Re: Is the Bible Absolute Truth?
X-To:         CHRISTIA@asuvm.inre.asu.edu

> Whether the Bible I buy for $10 at the corner bookstore carries such
> attributes of divinity is another question.  It really doesn't follow
> that God preserves all editions of the Bible from error.  The JW's
> have their own edition, the New World Translation, which most
> assuredly contains errors (from the viewpoint of the orthodox
> Christian community, that is).  It also doesn't follow that God
> preserves all readers of the Bible from error.
>

I never claimed anything of the sort.  Inerrancy does not extend to such things
 as fouled production runs, words misspelled or bogus translations; however, the
 word is out there, living and active.  Furthermore, if your search for truth
 (of course I'm talking of Christian truth) starts under the aforementioned
 conditions,  the Spirit will guide you to a realible document that, through the
 power of the Spirit, is the living word of God.

Yes, my argument for inerrency hinges on the Word being alive and becomming
 incarnate in Christ, or Christ is the word.  I think if you remove the life
 from the word, then the bible becomes what I perceive your argument states:
 "fairly realiable."

Does it scare me that God and the bible are the same?  Not in the least.

Dave Talaga
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Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 17:09:24 EDT
From:         carol nemec <YA67@FERRIS.BITNET>
Subject:      Barbara's speech

I was also impressed with both Marilyn and Barbara.  I was
part of the baby boom generation that did not drop out, do
drugs, protest, etc.  even though I sympathized with the
protestors.  We were not included in the news at that time :-)

I was also impressed with Barbara's handling of an interview
Tues evening on PBS.  I had felt the news media really
tearing the Republicans apart, something I had not noticed
during the Democratic convention.  Barbara let her interviewer
know she felt that way also!  The news media did not tear apart
Barbara and Marilyn to the extent they had Reagan and
Buchanan.  I'm not completely happy with Pres. Bush's record,
but he should be treated as fairly as his opponent.

Carol Nemec
From: mktjadx@gsusgi2.gsu.edu (Jeff A. Dilcher)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Southern US
Date: 13 Aug 92 15:55:40 GMT
Organization: Georgia State University


 You might be able to tell that my brother and I are somewhat
cynical. Growing up in southern California, where going to church is
NOT the thing to do, we are kinda sensitive about this social
christianity that exists in the South. 
 
I think you are letting stereotypical notions rule your reason.
You will be glad to find that your average Atlantan is just as
"secular" as your average Californian.  I have rarely been asked
"Where do you go to Church", and I have lived here 29 years.

Jeff
 
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Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 19:01:15 EDT
From:         MKLINE%VDH.BITNET@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU
Subject:      Home School Responses
X-To:         christia%asuacad.BITNET@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU

Subject: Home School Responses

Mine's coming, but I see nothing wrong with posting to the list.

I'm quite interested myself, and this is Practical Christian Living. For
the Kline's the decision to Home School was a "Practical Christian"
alternative to what we saw in public schools.

I think we will find those decisions as "Practical Christian" decisions
as well, and a testimony to the faith and dedication of the parents.

Maks.
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Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 11:46:37 EDT
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      update

My mother is in guarded condition.She is bleeding internally.  I never know
what to pray for anymore.  She has suffered so much.  I am in turmoil.  Should
I pray for her to live or should I ask God to take her to heaven.  What do you
do when you are in this situation?  THe doctor said she doesn't expect her to
die but she could die.  It depends on where the blood is coming from.  Even
when she is gets better each time this happens her life is miserable most of
the time with swollen legs and continuous cramping and medication problems.  I
know there is a better place for her and that she is saved.  It is getting hard
to keep praying for her to live when the quality of life is so bad and heaven
would be so wonderful.  Can you understand this?  Please pray that God will do
for her what his will would be for her.  I just want that.  If he wants her to
continue this way then I do.  If he wants her to be at rest awaiting heaven,
then that is what I want too.  Her needs outweigh mine.  I don't begin to thing
about what her loss will mean to me but I hate to see her suffering too much.

Your friend in Christ, Bernice
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Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1992 11:18:00 EDT
From:         Richard.Campbell@MVS.UDEL.EDU
Subject:      Re: Homosexuality
X-To:         CHRISTIA%ASUACAD.BITNET@udelvm.udel.edu

>   One point that I cannot understand though is how a Christian can be a
>   celibate homosexual.  At first when he/she is converted I can understand.
>   But for me this term implies that the person has, or is, not trying to\
>   change their heart, just their behavior.  Sin is not necessarily limited
>   to physical acts, but sin can also be an attitude or belief.  To me it
>   would seem as if the Homosexual would ask God to rid them of the desires
>   that he/she has.  God is not into only changing behavior, but He is also
>   into changing hearts.
>
>
> Carl-------+

  Carl   --    Amen to your last line.  However, it is not an easy issue to
deal with.  All of us have had deep problems that do not just vanish after
conversion.  Some of them do, but some take time.  Homosexual acts may cease
relatively quickly, but homosexual desires/identity may persist for quite
awhile. Sometimes change only occurs after inner healing/therapy/deliverance,
because usually the wounds which lead to a  homosexual "orientation" are  deep
and early.
   If it sounds like I am speaking from experience, well (hold my breath) I
am.  I won't go into a long testimony  for now.  But this is something I have
dealt with personally.  It has been a long healing journey.  But changes have
come.   God can and does heal those who persevere.   Pray for those who deal
with this stuff -- Satan hates those who desire freedom, and tries to rob
healing.                       In Christ,   Rich
From: SHERRIWR@DUVM.BITNET (WALTER SHERRILL)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: when the world is new..
Date: 18 Aug 92 16:22:22 GMT
Article-I.D.: ASUACAD.CHRISTIA%92081809284271
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              18 Aug 1992 18:49:05 EST from <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>

This song by Julie Miller is great but it lacks a true message. God I can
do whatever I want because You will forgive me. Because of this I can go to
heaven and be like You. Where is our responsibility to God?
From: willm@igd.fhg.de (Matt Will)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Raising a child for Christ
Date: 22 Aug 92 11:11:40 GMT
Organization: Zentrum fuer Graphische Datenverarbeitung, 6100 Darmstadt, Germany

In reply to my previous posting on this, Bernice Tennant said:

> God bless you Matt.( and welcome back!)  I was worried to obsession about
> the safety of my son when he was little.  Then my sister told me that she
> gave her children to God in prayer.  What better way to take care of them
> than to give them to God.  Right now, there are 2 of her children that I
> worry about and pray for but God will take care of them.


This is something that amazes me: God knows *every* person walking on this planet,
and He takes care of us because He loves us - not just us Christians! Whether
someone starts to believe in God does not primarily depend on our eloquence. 

The question I ask myself every day is: how can I be a witness for God's glory?
I used to think that every time I meet someone it is my duty to start talking
about my faith, but now I see that God has so many more ways to use me! I think
the key is to show God's love to others, to show that I really care for those 
people I am living with! I know I often fail at this (particularly when I am
around with people I can't stand myself), but my hope is that God will not stop
changing my heart.

Matt 
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Organization: Samford University
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 09:56:34 CDT
From:         Renee Autry <SRAUTRY@SAMFORD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Home schooling
              20 Aug 1992 09:44:00 CDT from <B882SA@UTARLG.UTA.EDU>

Sieg (very justly) alerted me to the fact that I had asked far too many
questions in my last post regarding home education.  While I am interested
in all comments anyone might have on their choices for education for their
children, I am primarily interested in the college admissions process for
children that have been educated at home.   However, please also feel free
to respond with any relevant comments on Christian education.

                            Thanks Sieg!

                                        Renee (SRAutry@Samford)
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