From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Who cares
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 21 Jul 92 23:16:04 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.120653.25543@linus.mitre.org> heimberg@pacific.mitre.org (Jeff Heimberger) writes:
>In article <12363@inews.intel.com> pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey) writes:
>>
>>I wont insinuate that you do any of these things. I know that I personally do
>>some of them. As a taxpaying citizen of the US, I am responsible for some,
>>like oppresion of the third world.
>
>*You* may choose to bear the responsibility of the oppression of the
>third world on *your* shoulders, but *I* do not choose to do so.  *I*
>have not *personally* oppressed any third world nation... thus, *I* do
>not want to be blamed for it.

I have a feeling that if you stopped every man on the street and asked
him if he did any of these things (mentioned in a previous post) they
would all say, "Hell, no!"  I guess none of it happens then.

You are not thinking too clearly if you pretend that group dynamics can
be understood by adding up the dynamics of the individual members.
Group psychology is a beast with a mind all its own.  

>>And being a consumer, I do destroy the
>>environment, although I try to minimize my impact.
>
>How could you be a consumer and not destroy the environment, unless you
>lived an utterly organic lifestyle, and eschewed everything such as
>prepared foods, electricity, motor transportation, etc.?

That's why he said MINIMIZE THE IMPACT.  Jeez. 

>>I did not set up the
>>patriarchy, but I know I serve to perpetuate it. Again I try to reverse
>>and subvert when I understand the role I play in perpetuating it. I do not
>>wish to perpetuate it, but it is another manner understanding all the ways
>>that I do. I have never raped a woman and I doubt I ever would, but I may
>>have used my male vocal aggression against women. Again it becomes a question
>>of me perceiving where I err.
>
>What about evolution?  Male agression was bred into us over the
>millenia because it helped perpetuate the species, and now, we are to
>throw it all away in the blink of an eye because it's Politically
>Incorrect.  Don't get me wrong -- I do not for a moment condone rape,
>spousal abuse, discrimination based on gender, etc., all of which I
>view as crimes.  However, I believe it is arrogant for the human race
>to suddenly devalue everything that nature bred into us over centuries
>of evolution.

You sound like Robert Ardrey and Desmond Morris -- Man the Hunter
striding brutally into the future.  Human beings love to think that we
are special because we have language and intellect, but when we don't
feel like getting off our fat asses and doing something, we love equally
to say, "Oh, it's human nature," -- that means that it was either
ordained by God or evolved as a survival skill into us.  Either way,
it's a great excuse for sitting back and not changing destructive
habits.

Humans also lived previously by totally screwing up one corner of the
land, moving on, and doing it somewhere else, meanwhile allowing the old
land to sit by itself and recover.  Since pushing against nature is
evolved into us, I guess we shouldn't do anything about it, then, right?
We ain't livin' on the savannah in 1992, Jeff.  Our lives have changed,
and that means that we must change as well.

>Perhaps it is time for the next evolutionary step, but will any of us
>see it in our lifetimes?  I doubt it, given the amount of time required
>by evolution.  That, however, does not mean that we should not strive
>for it, but it does mean that the Oppressed Masses [tm] could be a bit
>more understanding of the Straight White Males [tm, again] who don't
>buy into the old ways.

Okay.  You don't buy into the old ways.  But then why are you so angry
and threatened when one of the Oppressed Masses (YOUR word, not mine)
lets off some steam? 

>>Anyway, I think you see what I'm getting at.
>>There is no one person responsible for the system of oppression we now
>>have. We all play our roles. It is a question of finding out the roles that
>>one plays and reversing them. It is not a question of placing blame. The
>>wrongs of the past, which includes yesterday, can not be compensated for.
>>The best one can hope to do is to improve so that the future is brighter.
>>We all carry a burden and everyone says their burden is the heaviest, but
>>one who feels it knows it most. Where did I come from, who am I and where am
>>I going? I come from a democracy founded on slavery that had complete
>>disrespect for the natives. Now who am I and where am I going? How can I
>>change my ways such that the children don't view me as an oppressor, when
>>they reminisce?
>
>If *you*, by your *personal* lifestyle, cannot convince your children
>that you are not an oppressor, then you're not doing enough.  But it's
>not your children you should be concerned with here.  The people to
>worry about are those who barely know you, but still label you as an
>oppressor, because of the way you look.  

Excuse me, Jeff, but when was this done to you personally?  If we're
going to talk only about personal things that each one of us does (your
idead, not mine as well) then when has a black person ever walked up to
YOU PERSONALLY and blamed you for slavery?  When has a woman walked up
to you and said, "Jeff, you are a patriarchal tyrant responsible for my
oppression?"

You are angry because you are just beginning to find out what it has
been like for centuries for other people to be labelled a certain way
based on physical being.  And you don't like it.  Neither do I.  Join
the club.  It sounds to me like you just don't want to listen whenever
"oppressed" People sound off because you're scared they're trying to pin
it on you.  

>It's a form of discrimination
>that is just as heinous as the traditional forms, and yet people still
>do not seem to understand.

If the traditional kinds are heinous, why didn't you start screaming
about discrimination until it hit you personally, from your point of
view?  When men who yell about reverse discrimination yell just as loud
about "traditional" discrimination, I'll listen.  In my experience,
though, you sit back and don't lift a finger until it knocks on your
door.

Any kind of discrimination is evil. 

Blessings,
Janis
 
Newsgroups: alt.pagan