From: akn8257@ritvax.isc.rit.edu ( Arun )
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
Subject: Re: CASTE ! CASTE ! CASTE !
Date: 18 Nov 92 20:26:03 GMT
Reply-To: akn8257@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology

In article <1992Nov18.060753.18339@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, ssankara@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Sornam Sankara) writes:

>1.  The general degeneracy of working ethics and degradation of values in our
>society.  That is prevalent in almost all the government
>institutes/depts/companies though the difference may vary from one dept to
>another largely.
>
>     Central govt - Accounts general office, LIC, Income tax,
>Customs Central excise, Nationalized banks, BHEL, ONGC etc etc. will have
>diiferent working ethics.  There are a number of reasons for the differences.
>For example,  AGS office is worse than the state govt offices.  Banks are mcuh
>better than even many of the private companies ( I am not talking about the
>politicians and loan mela issues which come from the misuse of banks by the
>central govt). Similarly others also have very wide differences in work ethics.
>
>     State govt - Taluk office, Revenue dept, schools, Electricity Board, TWAD,
>Bus corporations etc.  Again very large differences in work ethics.  For
>example, bus corporations are having much better work ethics than many of the
>central govt depts.  But Taluk office or TWAD board are the worst in work
>ethics (remember corruption by the officers to peons are also different in
>different depts no matter central or state).
>
>     What you say is this difference and I agree with you.


Right. All I am saying is Caste based reservation is one of the reasons for the
difference. Another reason is monopoly. Bus transportation is a profit oriented
business and there are lot of competition for this. But in taluk office etc. 
this is not the case.

I still don't understand how this information helps to compromise me that
reservation indeed does not affect work ethic.


>2.  Reservation issue - Whether the caste based reservation does prevent the
>genral work ethics of all the establishements.  I say 'no' to this.
>
>     Again  persons coming through reservations also are of two types. Some
>with good work ethics (many reasons, good nature, family background, religious
>faith, personal motivatin etc etc) and some with no work ethics (the same
>reasons in the opposite sense.  So we cannot couple these two issues.


Individuals will always vary. Also the basic environment will affect their
morality too.


>     I dont deny that merit is the only criterion to be looked into.  But I am
>saying as follows.
>
>DONT SAY THAT ONLY CASTE BASED RESERVATION IS AGAINST MERIT AND WORK ETHICS.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

So you do understand that caste based reservation is against work ethics even
though there are other factors. Precisely my point.

Deleted...Long list of institutions where favorotism based on caste 
practised...

Again, what is the point for all this? How does this help your argument?

>DAMN THE CASTE
>===============
>
>This is a continuing trend and will never stop unless the educated realize and
>disown thier caste and question every thing open-mindedly.  We should never
>listen to  our parents in marriages etc.  Whatever the weapon they use, let us
>not be fooled.  How many of us will come forward to do this.  For a trial, we
>advertises in magazines for one of my friends who is from a Muslim family.
>There were so many responses to our surprise from both the parents and the
>girls.  He chose one of them and got married to a Hindu girl. Thier parents did
>not agree and my friend is asked not to enter his village by his parents and
>the Muslim community.
>
>How many of us will come forward to fight against all odds ?  I am not afraid
>to critize about any caste because I feel that I dont have any caste.  You talk
>anything about my parent's caste.  I dont get angry.  I will join you.  I will
>blast Brahmins, Pillais, Mudaliyars, Naidus, Nadars etc.   Because caste does
>not have any logic.  We cannot distiniguih two persons from different castes by
>thier appearance whereas races originate because of the geographical
>separations and physical features distinguish the race and we should overcome
>those differences too.


Again you are right, but is this in anyway relevent to our subject?
Subject: If you have forgotten, Is caste based reservstion harmful to work
ethics or not?


>Finally if we want to put the caste based reservations under scrutiny we
>should detach our caste from us and talk about it.  We should remove all
>feelings, remove the sacred threads, remove our caste labels etc. (somebody may
>say that sacred thread is something connected to holiness and morality:  They
>should be honest enough to evaluate how many unholi men are still wearing the
>sacred thread).


Please, I want you to understand one thing. One's personal feelings and 
beliefs are his own right and they are off-limits to anybody else. If anybody
wants to wear sacred thread or to remove it it is his own business and you and 
I have absolutely no right to tell him what to do. If you are non-Brahmin and
if you want to wear it nobody can tell you not to do. If anybody plays 
favoritism to any particular caste that is a different issue and I agree with 
you 100% in that respect.

Suppose, what if the difference is based on skin color (ie race)? What will
you ask them to do? Peel off their skin?  So what should our Muslim and 
Christian friends should do? Give up their religion?

I do agree that caste divisions are wrong and they should be abolished. 
But if you are going to wait for removal of all castes to repeal reservation
policy then you are waiting for eternity. Because Reservation does not help 
abolish caste system in anyway, it discriminates people in the other 
direction thereby helping it to get worse. If your are truly against castes 
you should say caste based reservations are wrong. I mean both for Upper and 
Lowercastes. One does not justify other. Government is for all people. It 
can't ask others to drop it while practising it itself.

Social differences will always be present based on religion or race or
caste whatever it may be. You can even see it here in US. Goverment should
try to help the underprevileged econmically, and more services like free 
books, scholarships and everything so that they can help themselves.
Because caste based reservations make the goverment work potentially 
ineffecient, hurts morality at work and most immportantly, it is morally
wrong. 

Since when does goverment have the resposibility of making the social 
injustices even. If people from one community A are killed in large numbers
by another community B, what should the govt. do? Stop the killings or kill
people in community B to even out?


> Why should a fellow from a caste with  5 % population do the jobs for another
>caste with a 30 % population.  Let them select thier own people to do their
>jobs whatever may be the quality or merit.  Let them be contented with whatever
>standard they get from thier own people.  Just because the western world is
>able to show a better standard in life, India cannot be given to the western
>people for ruling or managing our business.  Merit is again subjective.
>IIT Entrance exam score alone is not merit.  What the state govt or central
>board mark grad shows is not alone.  It is very difficult to decide in a 
>society like India.


This may sound very just but this is wrong.

What if people from upper class ask the government to spend all their tax
money on them alone? How much will the tribes get?

Why don't you ask the government to ration all jobs so that each family 
will get a fair share? I can't believe that you said this. How is anybody in 
my caste getting a job will feed my family? Should I get a job based on my
qualification or the number of people in my community who are already in 
jobs?

- Arun.
                       
>S. Sankarapandi
>ssankara@magnus.acs.ohios-ate.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil