HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kirsch@epx.cis.umn.edu (Dave Nobody Kirsch)
Subject: Re: Braves lose - finally!
Organization: Dominican Deities - Juan Guzman levitation branch
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 00:57:41 GMT

In article <64397@hydra.gatech.EDU> tmiller@prism.gatech.EDU (Thomas "more
hair than Jon" Miller) writes:
>
>  Well, it finally happened.  As the Braves tried to beat the Pirates
>in the 3rd game in Atlanta this weekend (thus achieving a sweep) and
>set a new winning streak record of 14 games, things seesawed back and
>forth until the final 5-4 Pirates victory.  Things looked pretty grim
>for the Braves late in the game, when the Pirates led 4-1, but Lonnie
>Smith whacked a 3-run homer to tie it 4-4.  A solo Pirate homer soon
>after that sealed the Braves' fate, though.

  I have a confession to make. 

  I almost helped to keep the Braves' win streak alive. 

  Bottom of the 8th, Belinda comes in to relieve Mason (I think), gets an out
and walks a batter. Up comes Lonnie Smith. This is a matchup I don't like;
I'm pretty neutral wrt the Braves/Pirates (leaning a little towards the
bravos), but I'm a *huge* fan of Stan Belinda. And no matter how maligned
Lonnie Smith has been after the World Series last year, he can still hit.  

  Anyways, back to the matchup. I'm sitting there gritting my teeth, and as
Belinda starts to deliver the pitch I shout, "Come on, Skippy!" Too late. I 
tried to come back with an immediate "Stan! I mean Stan!", but it was too
late. Lonnie Smith hits a fly to right that's reminiscent of Jim Sundberg vs.
the Jays in '85. It looked innocent enough, but kept going .. and going ..
and going. 3 run HR, game tied. I considered running to the bathroom and
finding some razor blades, but decided I would save that for when the Jays
actually get to the World Series.  

  Thankfully, the Pirates eased my conscience by coming back and scoring a
run to win it in the 9th.  

  For those skeptics out there, the above is 100% true. 

  Lundy, 

-- 
Dave Hung Like a Jim Acker Slider Kirsch       "Blue Jays all the way in '92"
kirsch@epx.cis.umn.edu                                      Jeff Kent for ROY
"Try new Fortenberry wine coolers, with a biting, bitter taste" - Noel Steere
Slanguage dictionary: maynard - "to insult with disdain and contempt" 
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: rwd4f@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Rob Dobson)
Subject: A Canadian World Series?
Organization: University of Virginia
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 15:43:19 GMT


Sure the expos are in first. BUT, they would be in FOURTH if they were in
the NL West. Thus, I am one US citizen unconcerned about the all-canadian
series.

Id probably pull for the Jays if it happened, though....

-r
From: cayley.waterloo.edu!djohnson@overmind.mind.org
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Value of Stats
Date: 23 Jul 92 04:23:00 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo
X-mailer: Stadel 3.4a-227
X-Spam-content: irrelevant

In article <1992Jul22.204625.25832@adobe.com> snichols@adobe.com (Sherri 
Nichols) writes:
>In article <Brsz01.88L@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> 
djohnson@cayley.waterloo.edu (David Johnson) writes:
>>>>>>If Rance Mulliniks, Derek Bell, and Rob Ducey don't think that a .300 
hitter
>>>>>>15HR and 50 RBI man so far shouldn't be playing then they shouldn't be
>>>>>>considered team players as well.  
>
>>Yes.  Derek's job is to play when asked to.  If he has a problem with 
another
>>player, lack of playing time etc he should speak to the management about
>>this.
>
>I'm still somewhat confused by the juxtaposition of these two statements by
>you.  I got the impression from your first statement that if Derek Bell
>were to complain about the good stat, bad attitude player playing instead
>of him, you would consider him not to be a team player.  That's my issue.
>Do you think it's not being a team player to think, or to suggest to
>management, that another player on the team shouldn't be there?

What I am saying is that there is a good way and a bad way in dealing with
a problem with other players or managers. If Derek feels that Winfield
a problem in the clubhouse then the good way to deal with this is to
discuss it with the manager or upper management.  If the management feels
that Derek has a reasonable complaint then I am sure that they would do
something about it.  If it is not a reasonable complaint and Derek thinks
that it is going to affect his play then Derek has every right to ask for
a trade or whatever he wants to ask for.  On the other hand, a bad way to
deal with the problem is to speak out to other team members, fans and
media.  This only makes the problem bigger and well known.  Also if other
teams get the impression that Winfield or any other player is a problem
then that will make a trade that much harder and the bad situation
continues.

>
>Sherri Nichols
>snichols@adobe.com
>

--David Johnson
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: kbos@carina.unm.edu (Kurt Bose "of Biscayzee")
Subject: Re: RC/27 for CFs
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 06:14:38 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico
Distribution: na

In article <1992Jul23.161934.2322@island.COM> fester@island.COM (Mike Fester) writes:
>
>Mazeroski's '92 Baseball Guide indicates that the Royals have a legitimate
>prospect in there farm system: Darren Burton. Here's what they say:
>
>"A five-tool propect, he reminds some scouts of a young Andy Van Slyke. Burton,
>19, showed gap power and speed last season (.263, 32 2B, 2 HR, 51 RBIs, 37 SB)
>and eventually could have 15-20 homer power. He's a legitimate centerfielder
>and has the arm strength for right field."
>
>He was in class A last year. Any word on how he's doing this year?
>
Isn't Maz the same publication that said Jose Mesa had the stuff and makeup to
win 20?  I guess they forgot to mention it would take him three years.

Anyway, I guess they were looking at the 1989 Van Slyke.  Last year, yes, Burton
had those #s, but paired with a .263 BA in the Midwest League, and three times
as many Ks as strikeouts, and a .324 OBP, one would think what five tools Maz
was referring to.  Speed, arm, gap power,...maybe he owns a hammer and a pair of
pliers.  Those are tools, right?

Anyway, he's batting .230 with 14 SBs in the Florida State League.  In two years
he might be at AA and doing well there, at which point he might be taken
seriously as a prospect, but not now.  Now, Kerwin Moore, if the bat comes
around, might be a better prospect, at least offensively.  If he hits for a
higher average, one would expect that his strikeout totals would decrease, and 
his speed is good, too.  He walks at a fairly good rate, but right now, he needs
to make contact more to be effective.  No power, but if the defense exists for
him, he could be a player.



-- 
Kurt Bose (as in Daisy, not Rose) - kbos@carina.unm.edu - I'm not the AntiChrist
I AM a Junior Stathead.  Flame me; it's fun!  I'm a shutmouthed, selfless idiot!
Latest Attempted Compiler of the R.S.BB FAQ - Now Accepting Submissions...(hint)
Have you hugged a Dan Gladden fan today? - Dave Rossing : .456/39/132 at Denver!
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: bk713@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Kimon Zachary)
Subject: Re: What happened to Leary???
Reply-To: bk713@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Kimon Zachary)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 14:40:37 GMT


In a previous article, kettler@oppy.mit.edu (KETTLER, THOMAS R.) says:

>In article <1992Jul28.190829.27445@europa.asd.contel.com>, king@ssvax.gte.com (Larry King)           writes...
>>	Does anyone know what happened to Tim Leary from the Yankees.  I
>>think he only has one start since the "foreign object" incident and was
>>curious if the Yankees are taking it out on him or what.  Is he hurt,
>>bullpen bound, gone????  E-Mail would be great if you have an answer.
>>Thanks in advance...
>> 
>Maybe the Yankees traded him to the Cubs so that the Cubs could make up the 
>vast pitching hole resulting from the trade of Danny Jackson with the Yankees 
>receiving Luis Salazar in exchange d:;-). (Sorry, I couldn't resist!)
>

"Timothy Leary's dead..."


-- 
Kimon Zachary			"I stand by all the misstatements that
JHU School of Med.			I've made." --Dan Quayle
Baltimore, MD			
NOT the Red Sox' theme song: "Hit" by the Sugar Cubes
From: chernesk@cs.umd.edu (Michael Chernesky)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Question on Free Agency
Date: 22 Jul 92 19:32:34 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, Dept. of Computer Science, Coll. Pk., MD 20742

The other day, I read article in the Washington Post about Mel Hall.  It
said that his contract is up this year, but since he was a free agent three(?)
years ago, he is uneligible to be a free agent at the end of this year.
I believe it said that a player can only be a free agent every five years.
If the Yankees want to keep him and if a contract is not agreed upon,
the article stated that the Yankees and he would go to salary arbitration.
I was surprised to learn that a player with at least nine years of duty
could have salary arbitration.

My questions are then, is the above true?  What implications does
this have for this year's crop of free agents and will this possibly change
in the next labor agreement (if there is one)?

Mike Chernesky


Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer)
Subject: Re: Value of Stats
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 19:10:15 GMT

In article <1992Jul27.124822.256@ccsvax.sfasu.edu> a_copeab@ccsvax.sfasu.edu writes:
>
>	It certianly doesn't see to be, though I am arguing from ignorance
>here. If RC/27 is adjusted for *teams* runs scored, then I don't see a gaping
>hole.  If, on the other hand, the team's overall performance doesn't come into
>play, then the stat is severely flawed. If the latter is true, ignore the next
>paragraph.

Huh???  Why should RC/27 be adjusted for teams?  Is a .250 hitter on a
bad team somehow better than a .250 hitter on a good team?  Why?

>	Could someone post the formula for RC/27, BTW?

RC is essentially OBP times total bases.  RC/27 is RC*(27/outs).

Cheers,
-Valentine
-- 
If Plantier goes, I go!				tedward@cs.cornell.edu
From: DGS4@psuvm.psu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: What happened to Leary???
Date: 29 Jul 92 17:36:34 GMT
 <1992Jul28.190829.27445@europa.asd.contel.com>
 <1992Jul29.144037.20716@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>
Organization: Penn State University

On the Orioles-Yankees broadcast on WBAL last night, Buck Showalter
was quoted as saying " We don't have 11 pitchers, we have 10 pitchers
and 1 body."  Leary was the aforementioned "body".

Dennis Shea
From: dtate+@pitt.edu (David M Tate)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Hall of Famers
Keywords: I still have yet to see ANY evidence from you.
Date: 27 Jul 92 23:31:28 GMT
Organization: Factors of Ys, Inc.

In article <1992Jul27.182116.3873@island.COM> fester@island.COM (Mike Fester) writes:

>In article <3621@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> dtate+@pitt.edu (David M Tate) writes:

>>
>>	3. Thorn and Palmer normalize by league on an *annual* basis.  As 
>>	   such, they are susceptible to glitches in their ratings when there
>>	   just aren't any good players at a given position in the league that
>>	   year.  

>>	                            Tony Perez (who led regular NL players in
>>	   chances per game, which tells you how bad the league was that year),

>Perez in 72 played exclusively at 1st (same source)

Sorry; I should have made the timing more clear.

I was referring to '71, which is the one year that stands out in Thorn and
Palmer's system as showing Garvey to be noticeably above average at third.
His other two partial seasons weren't nearly as highly-rated.



-- 
        David M. Tate        | "And that inverted Bowl we call The Dome
   dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu   |  Whereunder crawling coop'd we field and bat,
   Edward "Mike" Fitzgerald  |     Lift not your eyes to *it* for help--for it
     from "The Ruthaiyat"    |  Will drop the tow'ring fly upon your hat."
From: dtate+@pitt.edu (David M Tate)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Value of Stats
Date: 27 Jul 92 22:34:57 GMT
Organization: Factors of Ys, Inc.

In article <1992Jul27.124822.256@ccsvax.sfasu.edu> a_copeab@ccsvax.sfasu.edu writes:
>	For example, take player A and B, two full-time players from two 
>different teams. A has a RC/27 of 7, and B has a RC/27 of 8, then this would 
>seem to indicate that player B is slightly better. However, if player A's 
>team scored only 500 runs for the season, and player B's scored 750, it would
>seem that player A is actually better, adjusting for the team.

Huh?  You're essentially saying that Babe Ruth would have been a crummy
player if he had played for the Miskatonic Cephalopods instead of the Yankees,
and the 'Pods had been in the American League.  Same old Ruth, but having
rotten teammates somehow makes him less of a player???

The whole point of RC, MLV's, Linear Weights, and every other sophisticated
estimate of offensive worth, is to estimate how good a player is IN SPITE of
the distracting, confusing, and misleading effects that his teammates have on
things like R and RBI totals.  If Babe Ruth's team only scored 500 runs, it
would be because the other 8 starters were squid bait, not because Ruth wasn't
really Ruth.

Aside from home runs, which happen less than 10% of the time for even the
best players, you can't generate team runs without help from your teammates.
Some players have much, much better teammates than others.  This is why we
need these fancy individual measures in order to see who's really that good
and who just plays in good company...

>	Could someone post the formula for RC/27, BTW?

Quick and dirty version:  27*OBP*TB/(AB-H-CS)

Slightly more sophisticated: 27*OBP*(TB+BB/2+SB/4) / (AB-H-CS)

I'll leave the full goriness of the most complex version for somebody else.


-- 
        David M. Tate        | "And that inverted Bowl we call The Dome
   dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu   |  Whereunder crawling coop'd we field and bat,
   Edward "Mike" Fitzgerald  |     Lift not your eyes to *it* for help--for it
     from "The Ruthaiyat"    |  Will drop the tow'ring fly upon your hat."
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu)
Subject: Re: Shades of Toby Harrah
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 16:27:48 GMT

In article <2145@h.cs.wvu.wvnet.edu> hobbs@cs.wvu.wvnet.edu writes:
>
>    Does anybody see what Downing's doing? According to McPaper's
>weekly stats Brian Downing had 41 walks and 164 at bats. Ignoring
>HB, SF,SH and some really rare events, that means he is walking 20% 
>of the time. Toby Harrah had a season like that some time ago. It was
>followed by a terrible season and the end of his career. 
>    Some time thereafter I read an article, perhaps in BJA, about the
>exceptionally high walk rate being a harbinger of subsequent decline.
>The idea as I recall it was that slowed reflexes causes the aging batter
>to take pitches he used to rip away at.  At this time the pitchers are 
>still, of course, pitching to his reputation as something of a slugger 
>- being careful.  The next year the reflexes slip even farther and the 
>pitchers get bolder and Toby gets to retire to West Palm Beach. I don't
>remember for sure but I think there were other examples of similar
>career paths.
>    You could predict a similar fate for Downing based purely on his
>age I guess.  It will be interesting to see if his decline is as rapid as
>was Harrah's.

Well, Downing's (OBP - BA) is pretty high this year (.167), but it isn't
totally above his career.  His career (OBP - BA) was about .102 entering this
season, and he has posted a .120 as late as '87.  But the point is taken.

===============================================================================
GO CALIFORNIA ANGELS!
Committee to Elect Johnny Ray as Angels Second Baseman
Committee to Elect Mike Witt as Angels Ace
Committee to Elect Cookie Rojas as Angels Manager
===============================================================================
Nelson Lu (claudius@leland.stanford.edu)
From: claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: rc/27 for ss'
Date: 23 Jul 92 22:44:30 GMT
Distribution: rec
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA

In article <1992Jul23.180555.8356@trentu.ca> pyacm@trentu.ca (A Colin Morton) writes:
>In article <1992Jul23.032554.18068@leland.Stanford.EDU> claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) writes:
> [ discussion of Manny Lee deleted ]
>>
>>If he is at best the 7th best SS in the league, there is no justification
>>whatsoever for him to be a shortstop.
>>
>
>1.  If he were "at best the seventh best SS in the league" I can think
>of seven reasons why he should be a shortstop.  They'd be the seven everyday
>shortstops worse than him.  A league of fourteen needs more than six
>shortstops.

Ooops.  I guess this is one of the times where a mental slip causes my
article to be complete obsurd. :-) :-(  I meant, "all-star shortstop."

===============================================================================
GO CALIFORNIA ANGELS!
Committee to Elect Johnny Ray as Angels Second Baseman
Committee to Elect Mike Witt as Angels Ace
Committee to Elect Cookie Rojas as Angels Manager
===============================================================================
Nelson Lu (claudius@leland.stanford.edu)
From: a_copeab@ccsvax.sfasu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Braves Fans
Date: 28 Jul 92 20:22:52 CST
Organization: Stephen F. Austin State University

In article <1992Jul24.152628.14139@husc3.harvard.edu>, vreddy@husc3.harvard.edu writes:
> 
> and again and again and again and again and again...
> The Braves have established themselves (finally -- this Braves fan has been
> waiting YEARS for this day) as one of the BEST major league clubs, and
> with one of the best pitching lineups, as well as some pretty damn good 
> hitting, they aren't going to be drowning any time soon. They had a slow
> start, and as far as I can figure, that's the major reason the Reds jumped
> to first, but now, with over 75% of their last 40 games, and 11 in a row,
> the Braves are the team to beat... and it just ain't gonna happen.
> Sorry to disappoint you Reds fans (and even you NL East fans). :)
> 

	Yes, we should commend the Braves for keeping Alejandro Pena (or, as
it sounded to a friend of mine, 'jalepeno') around so that, since Acker and
Lamp are no longer around, someone must give up the longball.
	I am, of course, referring to the pitch he grooved to Eric Anthony the
other night in the 11th inning (before you think this is an Astro's fan 
indulging in one of the few cases when we get to gloat, I thought Anthony was
going to whiff :-); I don't think Anthony will amount to much in Houston,
and he shouldn't be protected in the expansion draft).

Brandon Cope
From: demers@cs.ucsd.edu (David DeMers)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: ruling question
Date: 25 Jul 92 23:25:47 GMT
Organization: =CSE Dept., U.C. San Diego

In article <BrxJG5.H2J@news.cso.uiuc.edu> jcp29389@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (BEACH VOLLEYBALL!!!) writes:
>what if a batter hits a line drive that hits an umpire and deflects to a
>player who catches the ball before it hits the ground.  is that a catch or
>is the umpire considered to be part of the ground?

Without a rule book handy, but remembering a play from the
past month, I believe it is a single, dead ball, no runners
advance unless forced.



-- 
Dave DeMers			 ddemers@UCSD   demers@cs.ucsd.edu
Computer Science & Engineering	C-014		demers%cs@ucsd.bitnet
UC San Diego					...!ucsd!cs!demers
La Jolla, CA 92093-0114	(619) 534-0688, or -8187, FAX: (619) 534-7029
From: snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Value of Stats
Date: 23 Jul 92 17:02:34 GMT
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated

In article <BrunC5.7zw@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> djohnson@cayley.waterloo.edu (David Johnson) writes:
>2)  Who is more better for the team?  This requires the combination of using
>    statistics and analysing the intangibles.

So, how do we go about analyzing the intangibles, and how do we tell when
those intangibles have helped the team above and beyond the contribution of
the player's performance on the field as measured by his statistics?  How
do we even define a player's intangible contribution?  Even if we could, of
what good is it to us?  Does it tell us anything about which team is likely
to win, or which player is likely to help a particular team win, or which
player is likely to perform well on the field (beyond what we can discern
about this likelihood from his statistics)?

Sherri Nichols
snichols@adobe.com
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: silber@m.cs.uiuc.edu (Ami A. Silberman)
Subject: Re: Simulation Games
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 04:50:14 GMT

claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) writes:

>However, I feel that PTP handled the situation basically correct as well, by
>giving limitations to players who have small sample stats against a particular
>hand of pitchers.  For example, Harold Baines, who batted .301 vs. lefties
>with more power than vs. righties last season, was limited to 87 AB vs. LHP.
>This makes a hastle while bookkeeping, but allows more accurate simulation,
>IMO.  (BTW, I platoon Baines with Lonnie Smith, which is somewhat realistic.)

Except that I would add the following. Players like Baines should be restricted
in their pinch-hitting as well. In our league, which allows 1.5 PA per AB 
limitation, Baines could be used as a pinch-hitter vs. lefties quite often.
Secondly, it doesn't address the weird use of pitchers. I've seen (and done)
the following: rhp pitching, left handed batter at the plate, rhp is lifted
for another rhp who happens to pitch better vs. lefties than the first one
even though a tolerable (or better) left-handed reliver is available.
One team, in our league, even has instructions to bring in a particular
lhp vs. righties and a rhp vs. lefties (each has inverse platoon differential
of about .050.)  Line-up building also is suspect. Since we know, before we
send our road instructions, who is pitching, we can use weird platoons (such
as stacking the line-up vs. Fernandez with lefties). I've looked at my pitchers
stats in GABSB, and found that none of them have particularily noticable
platoon differentials in the long run, though some had some pretty big splits
last year. (A couple had nearly no differential in BA, but about .030 in
each of SLG and OBP, some had a more sizable differential. None had 
differentials in BA of more than .070, but for last year, I had two with
differentials of over .100, one close to that, one with an inverse differential
of about .080 and one with an inverse differential of .130.)
It would be nice if there was some sort of restriction on line-up construction.
I still think that the best way of going about it would be to generate
the platoon differential on the cards based on either a players career or
the last three years etc. (As a side note, Statamatic Football kind of does
this. For players who carried the ball less than a certain number of times,
they didn't count his longest run if it was over 30yds.)
-- 
ami silberman - janitor of lunacy
	silber@cs.uiuc.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball