From: bense@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Ron Bense)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: Life at conception...
Date: 18 Aug 92 13:08:11 GMT
Reply-To: bense@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Ronald Bense)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD

In talk.abortion, nyikos@math.scarolina.edu (Peter Nyikos) writes:
>  bense@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Ron Bense) writes everything else:

>># understand, as it is only stopping another one of many that have already
>># been stopped by nature, and why should it make any difference whether
>># man or nature terminates a conceived entity?

>Murder is wrong, yet nature terminates grownups very efficiently (fire,
>flood, disease, volcanoes...)

Isn't a grown-up (ie adult, person) more than an entity? I think so,
that's why we call them a person, or similar terms. An entity, as used
here, meant non-person, wich no matter how you weasel, a fetus never
is, nor will be, as when it becomes a person, it is no longer a fetus.
Hence your statement is meaningless to the original statement.

>I've heard a lot of loose figures bandied about.  This 2/3 far outdoes the
>others.  A reference to a published paper in a medical or scientific
>journal would be appreciated.

This came from Dr. Len Howard, a long-time obstetrician. I will ask
him for specific references as to what study these figures come from.

>>birth as that arbitrary point. It is the point where the infant (it is after
>>birth) does not directly impinge upon any one particular person, although
>>mothers generally tend to care for their newborns, as any person can
>>take care of it after that point. Before birth, the z/e/f relies entirely
>>upon a single woman for everything, 24 hours a day, causing her harm
>>and hardship. (for those who would say pregnancy is wonderful, I've
>>never heard a pregnant woman say that,

>How many pregnant women have you talked to, and at what stage?  Feeling
>the late-term baby move around inside can be a very meaningful experience.
>Even just feeling a faint "echo" by putting my hand on my wife's abdomen,
>which is as close as I can get to this, was very rewarding.

That may be, but how does this *emotionalism* figure into the debate?
As for how many I've talked to? Well, my best friend in college got
married and his wife got pregnant shortly there after. I'd say I talked
to this particular woman throughout the entire pregnancy. There have
been 11 children born to women I work with (babyboomers, mostly:) in
the past 2 years. I'd say I talked to them (not all) at several points
in their pregnancies, too. I have also talked to several women who've
had abortions, in depth, and I understand that also about as well as
could be expected of a male. What's your point? Can you say the same?
Just because it was a wanted child (assumed) in your case with your
wife, don't try to place that emotionalism onto all pregnancies, because
this is a fallacy. For those in your position, I think all agree that
your feelings would be mutual, although some fear and uncertainty might
also creep in there.

>> only that the *results* are wonderful,
>>a big difference) Birth seems the earliest time that this line can be
>>drawn, and not encroach on another's rights.

>So you don't classify babies about to be born as "anothers", I see.

I'm talking about drawing absolute lines, and rational places for them.
What my personal feelings are here were never stated. Why don't you
argue the point, and please leave out all that "FetusIsWonderfulIdolator
GeeIsn'tThatACuteTeddyBearLumpSuckingOutAWomansLifeMass" garbage. (No,
that isn't a drieuxTm quote.:)

Ron

Potassium Benzoate included as a preserver.
Newsgroups: talk.abortion