Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Re: What do you do when your child thinks Metallica is cool?
From: jsteiner@anwsun.phya.utoledo.edu (jason 'Think!' steiner)
Date: 15 Nov 92 21:26:32 EST
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nestabro@nova.gmi.edu (Noel Estabrook) writes:
> jsteiner@anwsun.phya.utoledo.edu (jason 'Think!' steiner) writes:
> 
> >it might be helpful to know what their false doctrine -is- before
> >you try to counter it.
> 
> If I don't know it, I can always ask.

again, what if they told you "Nietzsche believes that too". would you
be able to counter it? no, you have to go to the source if you're
going to discuss anything. it doesn't sound as though you much
-want- to discuss. it sounds like you'd rather preach. which is ok
for a certain segment of the population. but there's another one
that's also in need of Christ, and won't be reached that way.

> >> out error and shine the light. 
> 
> >you may not have to go to a sacrificial ceremony (i never suggested
> >such a thing), but you'd better know what the Satanic bible says
> >before trying to counter it with what the Bible says. do you 
> >realize how many satanists there are who have been falsely accused 
> >of what Christians -assumed- they believed out of ignorance of 
> >what they really believed?
> 
> Again, if I'm in doubt, I can ask.  Satanism is really quite 
> simple, though. They believe Satan is the evetual victor and Christ 
> is the enemy.

you took the bait hook, line and sinker. this is -exactly- the kind
of thing i was talking about. most satanists don't believe there -is- 
a satan, much less a Christ. and you don't know that because you've
never taken the time to find out, supposedly because you don't want
to be 'corrupted' by it. 

if i were a satanist instead of a Christian trying to make a point 
i'd have laughed at you and walked away by now. and my heart would
be just a little harder because a Christian had once again proved
how stupid they are. if you -had- known what you were talking about 
you might have been able to tell me the good news of Jesus Christ. if 
you won't take the time to get to know your fellow man, why should 
they listen to you?

my point still stands.

> >wait, how do you know what it is they believe, when you say "you're
> >wrong"? and where is your evidence? because the Bible says so?
> >what if i don't believe the Bible? where are you then? how do you
> >KNOW the Bible is true? because it says so? that's circular 
> >reasoning, as well as blind, and completely unnecessary.
> 
> Well, if they don't believe in Christ, they're wrong.  Simple.  I 
> can go into scads of evidence (I'm not stupid), but I won't waste 
> the bandwidth to preach to the choir.

they're wrong AND what? what are you going to do about it? leave
them to burn? it sounds like that's what you're saying. 

people can be swayed by the very same things you put down as "man's 
logic", and have been in the past. you give up too soon.

> >you realize, of course, that you are using the -exact- same 
> >argument that Jehovah's Witnesses use when their beliefs are 
> >challenged. "I have studied these things in my heart and KNOW them 
> >too be true."
> 
> Not true.  I never say I "know it in my heart".  I point to 
> Scripture, and if they don't accept that, it's their responsibility.

is true. you misquoted what i said. the JW's "prove" their scriptures 
by that phrase, and so do you. i could be a Muslim and point to the 
Koran & say "there's the truth. if you don't accept it it's your 
responsibility". what makes me any less right than you are?

> >listen very, very, carefully: YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE BLIND. no one 
> >does.
> 
> We ARE blind, like it or not.  We are so incredibly stupid, it's not
> even funny.

speak for yourself. i am blind in comparison to the infinite sight
of God, but compared to infinity, anything is negligable. that does
-not- mean we have an excuse not to improve.

> >we do not have to be nothing for Christ to be great. he will be 
> >great
> 
> Paul kind of thought you did.

Paul was either incorrect, or you're misinterpreting him. i believe
i know the scripture you're referring to, and you're misinterpreting.
at least, i've read my Bible, and never did Paul make such an
absurd claim as "if there are intelligent people in the world, then
Christ's power is reduced".

> >> Scripture says, "every man is without excuse". 
> 
> >but they will attempt to use them anyway. how will you challenge 
> >them? with words from a book they don't believe?
> 
> We preach the message, the Holy Spirit convinces.

easy out for you isn't it? no responsibility to try, eh?

> >they'll be in hell, and God (and you) will wonder why you didn't 
> >try harder.
> 
> I don't agree.

we'll see, won't we?

> >is it useless if people come to Christ because of it?
> 
> Philosophy will NEVER bring someone to Christ.

no, but it can be part of a path that leads in that direction. many
people have followed it in the past and many will. refusing to
maintain that avenue is gross negligence.

> I was going to respond to this post point by point, but as always, 
> Scripture is far superior:

easier than answering my questions isn't it? if i were unsaved, how
do you think i would respond? there -are- answers BTW, and if you
are purposefully ignorant enough that you can't give them then
you are just as responsible for the loss of those souls as if you
had never preached at all.

> "For it is written, 'I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the 
> cleverness of the clever I will set aside'.  Where is the wise man? 
>  Where is the debater of this age?  Has not God made foolish the 
> wisdom of the world?  For since in the wisdom of God the world 
> through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased 
> through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who 
> believe...because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the 
> weakness of God is stronger than men... but God has chosen the 
> foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen 
> the weak things of the world to shame the things which are 
> strong...that no man should boast before god...And when I came to 
> you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of 
> wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God.  For I determined 
> to know NOTHING among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified, 
> and I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much tremmbling, 
> And my message and my preaching were not in _persuasive_ words of 
> wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your 
> faith should not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of 
> God." (I Cor. 1:19-2:5).

scripture. how nice. mind explaining why you posted this non sequitur
instead of answering my queries?

> And we all know how educated and intelligent Paul was, yet how did 
> he choose to preach? I'll take Paul's way.

which, of course, invalidates all those many verses in Proverbs about
seeking wisdom. so there is a contradiction in scripture? no. i think
not. there are different ways to approach various situations and
people. you insist that we discard a method that works for a very
important set of people. i will do no such thing.

jason

--
would you could you should you cross thru if i could wipe my eyes a blinding
compromise another pinky shave enlightens the brow now cow to die another day
if you prefer outside be blessed sir ostracize better bastard now forgotten
well instead of favored son of hell in hopes to open eyes - scaterd few, U
,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,`,` jsteiner@anwsun.phya.utoledo.edu ,`,`,`
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian