From: spencer@cats.ucsc.edu (Michael Spencer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens
Subject: Re: THE MONEY SUPPLY AND CURRENCIES
Date: 28 Jan 1993 18:17:06 GMT
Organization: University of California, Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: am.ucsc.edu


Dale McMillen <dmcmillen@igc.apc.org> writes:


>Micheal Spencer,
> 
>I don't know why you continuously want to peg me as a socialist.
>I know I have said that I find myself leaning to some form of
>decentralized democratic socialism, but this is a far cry from
>the type of socialism you seem to want to label me with.
> 
Almost every form of socialism ever propounded has also claimed
that it wants some form of "decentralized democratic socialism"
(see Marx, Fabians, Utopians, et al). So your attempt to distinguish
your brand from the others is a distinction without a difference.

>All of the "thugs" you keep bringing up -- Hitler, Mussolini, Mao,
>or Huey Long -- have had serious troubles with these two concepts.
>Any political organization or philosophy has similar troubles.  Just
>look at your local city council, state legislators and congressmen, or
>look at your friends in your local Democrat, Republican, Libertarian,
>or Green Parties and you will find some who wish to dismiss these
>fundamental principles of political fairness for either expediency or
>devotion to some "higher goal".
> 
Yeah but it is only socialism that has given rise to the real thugs
like Hitler, Stalin, et al (note you added Huey Long to the list not me).
Sure they politically hijacked the movement, but the point is 
that all those nice cuddly ideals ideally lend themselves to 
being hijacked.

>...We believe if you treat people fairly
>they will be able to empower themselves and their communities
>to take care of the things that matter to them: food, shelter,
>clothing, clean air and water, interpersonal relationships,
>and spiritual connections to God and nature.
> 
This is wonderfully condescending. Noblesse oblige and all
that, eh.  Look, you grow up on the wrong side of the tracks
and you want out, you get out. It's not easy but if you want
it you can get it - and as a matter of fact the majority do.
The generational change rate of the bottom quintile of
the population is approxiamtely the same as for all the
other quintiles (about 60%); and if you are on the bottom
the only way out is up.

You want to "empower" people!  Hell they already have power.
But fortitude, perseverance, responsibility, honesty - the
virtues necessary to grasp and wield that power - come from
within the individual and no social system can impose them.

And therein lies one of the reasons socialist ideals keep
getting politically hijacked. Socialists (like theocrats
and other idealists) from their desire to do good, always
wind up wanting to coerce virtue.

>Our commitment to socialism, capitalism, the free market, or
>anything in between is clearly subordinate to the principles
>of decentralization and grassroots democracy.

If you don't have a free market, then you are not truly free.
If you haven't learned this, then you have not been
following the post WWII history of Eurasia.

> 
>While it may be possible for a Hitler or a Mao to co-opt the
>Green message and claim the allegiance of Green Party members,
>I would nearly guarantee that it would be more difficult for
>this potential dictator to co-opt Greens than any other political
>party you could name, including the Libertarians.

You're like the drunk who gets behind the wheel saying "Oh those
other guys just didn't know how to handle their liquor .."

Given the historically horrid record of attempts to implement
socialist ideals, why not just give up trying?  States
which find their philosophical base in Locke have been much
more successful in promoting the peace and prosperity of
their citizenry. Why insist that the successes must be torn
up by their roots in order to replace them with what has
failed in the past?

> 

-- 

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Michael Spencer            |      2640 Borregas
spencer@cats.ucsc.edu      |      Aptos, CA   95003
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Newsgroups: alt.politics.greens