From: Frank.ODwyer@ap.mchp.sni.de ()
Subject: Re: rights and responsibilities
Organization: Siemens-Nixdorf AG
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 19:23:00 GMT

In article <1992Sep23.232653.3958@nwnexus.WA.COM> jbrindle@halcyon.com (Jennifer Brindle) writes:
>In article <1992Sep22.173704.15681@sniap.mchp.sni.de> frank@D012S436.sniap.mchp.sni.de (Frank O'Dwyer) writes:

[...]

>>Women using birth control have consented to the _risk_ of pregnancy, often 
>>along with other medical risks.   That is clearly a choice, and it's clearly 
>>the woman's, and/or possibly her partner's, choice.  When these risks pay off, 
>>who would you say is to blame?  The man?  The woman?  The contraceptive 
>>manufacturer?  The bottle of whisky?   Frank Sinatra?  Society?  Nobody?
>>
>Why blame anyone?  I can't understand this apparent need to blame anyone.

Fair point.  I do not mean 'blame' in the sense of 'punish', but
in the sense of 'responsible'.   Some people have posted that they
think abortion is a responsible solution to this.   And they are entitled
to their opinion.  

However I find it hard to see how any responsibility to the fetus is
fulfilled when people offer shabby apologies like "it's for its own good", or
"Silence gives consent".  That you perhaps see only one person where I see
two, I admit, must make this seem different.   But perhaps you can see my
concern.

>It was obviously an accident, if the woman or man were using birth control.
>Since when is something so obviously an accident have to have a blame
>attached?  It was noone's fault--it just happened.

I'm sorry, but it is not an accident.  The couple had sex.  Though they used
birth control, they knew it doesn't always work.  The risk of pregnancy is
acknowledged, and accepted by them.  This is not the same thing at all as "we
want to have a child", I acknowledge, but nevertheless it is real, and
if you happen to be a fetus, it is rather important.

If they never heard how babies happen, or sincerely believed that you
don't get pregnant standing up, or something, then you might have a point.

And if the parents are not responsible for the zygote, who the hell
is?   And when do parents acquire responsibility for their kids?  Birth?
When the responsibility fairy arrives?  When?   Who is responsible until
then?


[...]

>>Why has society no right to protect a foetus if it sees fit?
>Society has no right to interfere in MY body.

Very true.  Nor mine.  But in your view, should a reluctant father be 
compelled to give blood to his child, if by his own actions he caused that
child to be in need of a transfusion, and he was the only compatible
donor?  If you can answer 'no' to that, this is consistent with
the pro-choice view on abortion.   And if you do answer 'no', is
it O.K. with you if I choose to say that father is being somewhat selfish?

[...]

>>: You imply that you would make exceptions for rape/incest victims.  Are you 
>>: really concerned about fetuses, or are you just looking to punish women for 
>>: consenting to sex?
>>
>>Just a guess, but I'd give a thumbs down to the punishment theory.  
>>
>>Bizarre, really bizarre....
>
>NO. Not bizarre either.  

Listen.  I am not trying to punish women for having sex.  I think
an unborn child is a person.  Poor me, huh?  You would ask me to
say that an unborn child is not a person, but I cannot in conscience
do so.  Believe me, I'd love to, my life would be so very much easier. 
I can't see why it is you think I want to punish women for having sex,
but all I can do is say no, I don't want that.  And you can take my
word at face value, or you can call me a liar, it's up to you.

>If a fetus is a legal person from conception and
>has all the rights in the world to be born, then why give ANY aexceptions
>at all?  To give an exception for the life of the women implies that there
>is indeed a hierarchy of rights, and hers is more important.  To give 

There is indeed a hierarchy of rights.  Bodily autonomy is prized more highly
than another's right to life by many people (I'm not attacking pro-choice 
values here, just stating a fact).   By that I mean, you can refuse to
give blood, even if that would kill somebody.   This is only selfish,
it is no crime, because you're not responsible for a random person
needing blood.

In my view, it's not quite the same when you're that person's father,
or mother, and you got them into the mess where they needed your blood
through your own negligence.

>exceptions based on the circumstances surrounding how that fetus got
>there in the first place is absurd, if it is a legal person.  Why not
>say that a borned person who results from rape or incest can be killed?
>If the fetus has the exact same rights as a borned person, and you allow
>this exception, then you should allow the woman to suffocate that borned
>rape-resulted infant!

Well the rape-resulted-infant, though you've made quite a good
crack at dehumanising it by describing it as such, is no longer 
inside your body.  Didn't that used to be important?

Is a rape victim responsible for her pregnancy?  No? 
Then in IMHO, that means her right to bodily autonomy should obtain.
If it's outside her body then it shouldn't, should it?

[...]

>However, if you don't think that a fetus is a legal person, and you do
>have these exceptions for rape and incest because the women didn't _choose_
>to be raped or a victim of incest, then you most certainly are implying
>very strongly that because she _chose_ to have sex, then she cannot
>terminate.  You are punishing her for having sex!

 I do think the fetus is a legal person, or should be, so this isn't me.

>
>Very logical.
>
>So, which is it?

I have accepted the terms of your logic, and tried my best to show 
you that I do not want to punish women for having sex.

You know, it would save a lot of bandwidth, a lot of keyboards, and a 
lot of my time, if people like you could just take somebody's word about 
what it is they "want" to do.  I want to afford a fetus the dignity and 
respect that should be afforded any human being.  _That_ is what I want to 
do, O.K.?

>
>Jennifer
>


-- 
Frank.ODwyer@ap.mchp.sni.de     "I heard about a couple livin' in the USA
                                 They traded in their baby for a chevrolet"
				   - Elvis Costello.  'Less than Zero'
Newsgroups: talk.abortion,alt.fan.dan-quayle,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh