HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: nlu@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu)
Subject: Re: Blue Jays-Gillick
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 00:22:29 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.222334.13983@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca> maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard) writes:

>the functions or purposes of a cigarette lighter and the drive train are
>not the same.  the cigarette lighter makes no claim that it contributes
>to my safe arrival.  A better comparison is the tiny jet in my carburetor 
>and the drive shaft.  I wouldn't have made it without either.

Why?  Prove it! :-)

But if you want to use "claim" of contribution, then this is senseless.
Griffin, for example, makes no claim either that he's an essential part of
the Blue Jays' success.  So what does that tell you?  Nothing.  David Cone
didn't make that kind of a claim either.  What does that tell you?  Nothing.

>Well yah, the car ran and I got home OK.  Should I consider a discussion
>worthwhile that centred on whether the drive shaft or the carberutor jet 
>was more important to my journey?  Furthermore, should I feel safer knowing
>that I had the best jet and the best drive shaft before the journey while 
>not even understanding that there is far more to the car than those 2 parts?

Prove that Griffin is as important as a drive shaft.  If you can't, don't
bother asking anyone to prove anything from now on.

===============================================================================
GO CALIFORNIA ANGELS!
===============================================================================
Nelson Lu (claudius@leland.stanford.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: akamholz@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Andrew E Kamholz)
Subject: Re: Brian Dorsett (was Re: Who are these new Pirates ?)
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 20:48:28 GMT

In article <1992Dec17.170142.4774@adobe.com> snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:
>In article <1992Dec17.001045.26048@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> akamholz@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Andrew E Kamholz) writes:
>>I saw Dorsett when he was still with the Yanks. I don't thnk he could
>>possibly be 31.
>
>Multiple references put Dorsett's birth date at 4/9/61.  I wouldn't think
>there would be any incentive for Dorsett to lie about his age and pretend
>to be *older* than he really is.
>
>Sherri Nichols
>snichols@adobe.com
>
>
>
Well, I suppose you are right. If he has the talent and the health, there's
no reason, though, that he couldn't still be considered a prospect.

AEK
From: eblom@mari.acc-admin.stolaf.edu (Kate E Eblom)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: SABR national address and phone?
Date: 11 Dec 92 20:21:20 GMT
Organization: St. Olaf College; Northfield, MN

In article <1992Dec11.161722.29777@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com> paula@koufax.cv.hp.com (Paul Andresen) writes:
>In article <1992Dec10.231658.16502@news2.cis.umn.edu>, khansen@staff.tc.umn.edu () writes:
>|> Does anyone know the address and/or phone number to contact for membership
>|> info to SABR?
>
>		     Society For American Baseball Research
>		     PO Box 93183
>		     Cleveland, OH 44101
>
>		     (216)-575-0500
>
>Dues are $30 per year.
Actually, they are now $35.
If next year's products are a good as last year's...Join us (join us)...
TTFN - Woody 
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>              If you're really hip, the passing years will show.
>                                           ......Tower Of Power
>
>  paula@koufax.cv.hp.com   Paul Andresen  Hewlett-Packard  (503)-750-3511
>
>    home: 3006 NW McKinley    Corvallis, OR 97330       (503)-752-8424
>                            A SABR member since 1979
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: abgem@stdvax (Gary Mosier)
Subject: Re: Holding action in RF for O's
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  
Organization: Goddard Space Flight Center - Robotics Lab
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 05:37:00 GMT

In article <1992Dec15.094245.25135@Princeton.EDU>, niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent) writes...
>In article <14DEC199217501074@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu> hasch@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu (Bruce M Hasch) writes:
>>In <1gb3o8INNi3q@uwm.edu>, paul@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Paul R Krueger) writes...
> 
[ delete lots of stuff about Ripken/Reynolds ]

>>	Unfortunately, I feel that this may be a "shut up the fans" move-
>>intended to keep the fans believing that the organization is doing something
>>to improve the team.  Reynolds will be an improvement over Bill, but only
>>because Bill was so damn awful.  The O's still are mumbling about going into
>>next season with The Adventures of Chito Martinez and his sidekick Luis
>>Mercedes, who could combine to form the worst defensive platoon in the history
>>of the game... (did Reimer and Incaviglia ever play together??? :-)).  
>>Remember Roland, Reynolds is a good start, but repeat after me--Ruben Sierra--
>>Ruben Sierra--Ruben Sierra.  Good.
> 
>Why?  First of all, I don't think Chito is that bad at all.  Certainly 
>Mercedes looks like Luis Polonia in the outfield, but Martinez seems
>decent to me, though I'd love to see what DA has to say.  (I wouldn't
>put much weight on one year Range Factors, but Sierra was near the
>bottom, and Martinez was near the top in the AL last year.)
> 
>Secondly, I know I'm going to be ridiculed for saying so, but why would 
>you really rather have Ruben Sierra than Chito Martinez?  I don't think 
>he's much better.
> 
>In fact, looking at James's projections, neither does he:
>Ruben:  289/344/474
>Chito:  252/330/463
> 
>They are actually the same age, 27.  Certainly Ruben looks a little
>better, and his upside potential is much greater than Chito Martinez's,
>but is he worth the four or five million more?  I don't think so.  Basically,
>Ruben Sierra is pretty overrated.  I'd rather see the money spent on Mark 
>McGwire.  Or Barry Bonds.  (Oh well.  Damn.  Maybe Bob Lurie will cancel
>his contract again though.  I can always hope.)
> 
>On the other hand, it's worse than what you're saying; the platoon is
>more likely to be Martinez/Mercedes/Segui.  Ouch.  Just what the Orioles
>needed.  A first baseman who hits like a middle infielder playing the
>outfield.
> 
>As long as we don't get Harold Baines, who the Orioles were also
>interested in at one time, though. 

I get the impression that the O's are merely biding their time until 
Jeffrey Hammonds is ready to play OF and bat leadoff, envisioning an 
outfield of Anderson-Devereaux-Hammonds. Two problems here: none of these 
guys has the classic right fielder's arm, and Brady's a one-year wonder if 
I ever saw one (Brady fans - I hope I eat those words, OK?).

Gary "watching my money fatten Eli's bank account" Mosier

abgem@stdvax.gsfc.nasa.gov
            or
gem712@rs710.gsfc.nasa.gov
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols)
Subject: Re: Barry Bonds is a Giant! NOT!
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated
Distribution: world,local
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 00:38:49 GMT

In article <1gkinnINN349@access.usask.ca> gerry@skatter.usask.ca writes:
>It was his property he can decide to sell or not. Why should another
>group of people who weren't going to buy it get to decide what the price 
>of Lurie's property is?

Because those were the conditions Lurie agreed to when he bought the
property in the first place.

Sherri Nichols
snichols@adobe.com



Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: s_bean@oz.plymouth.edu (Shaun P. Bean)
Subject: Re: Trivia Question
Organization: Plymouth State College - Plymouth, NH.
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 04:04:25 GMT

In article <BzB8Mw.27x@mach1.wlu.ca> lars4752@mach1.wlu.ca (Bradley Larsen u) writes:
>Name the eight ways by which a batter can reach first base.
>

1 - Basehit
2 - Walk
3 - Strikeout
4 - Hit by Pitch
5 - Intentional Walk
6 - Catcher's Interference
7 - Error
8 - Fielder's Choice

Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: cmk@athena.mit.edu (Charles M Kozierok)
Subject: Re: joe carter and others
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Distribution: rec
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 05:38:10 GMT

In article <92347.193459RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu> <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu> writes:
>another thing: about this "rickey henderson is probably the most
>self-centered ballplayer ever" or some such...
>
>the three statistics that most people think are the best (regardless
>of whether or not they are the best) in determining greatness of a
>player are batting average, runs batted in, and home runs.
>
>an extremely self-centered person, in order to look good to the greatest
>number of people, would attempt to maximize these statistics, at the cost
>of his team, if necessary.
>
>an extremely self-centered person would thus walk as little as possible.
>walking does not increase batting average; walking does not increase
>home runs; walking rarely increases runs batted in.  all walking does
>is help your team win games, and your teammates get runs batted in, which
>an extremely self-centered person would not care about.

very interesting argument. i would add out however that he *does* care a lot
about stolen bases, which walking a lot helps tremendously. also,
if he was *really* self-centered, he would decide for himself what
criteria he really cared about, and to hell with the rest of the world.
in his case it might be runs scored and OBP, who knows?

the "badness" of his attitude *is* probably over-rated. i should know --
i'm one of the guys who hates him...

--
charles
From: gajarsky@pilot.njin.net (Bob Gajarsky - Hobokenite)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: NL East analysis comment
Date: 17 Dec 92 15:51:48 GMT
Organization: Somewhere in Hoboken

iacurtop@ERE.UMontreal.CA (Iacurto Paul) writes:

>What are the most important positions? You tell me.

>Any team would like to have a Darren Daulton (C), Mark Grace (1B),
>Ryne Sandberg (2B), Wil Cordero (SS), Dave Hollins (3B), Bernard
>Gilkey (LF), Ray Lankford (CF) and Larry Walker (RF).

>So which guy is the most important?

i don't know if you're referring to me, but i  believe you
 put the best player available out there.  defense is more
 important at the middle positions, since less people can
 play there competently (on d.) and less important on the
 outside ones.  and would any team like to have those players?
 hmm.  i know the braves, reds and padres have starting lineups
 that on the whole are arguably better than the one
 you've thrown out there.

which i think shows how bad the nl east has gotten. never fret,
 your expos will finish first...

 - bob gaj
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: dave@snitor.sni.ca (Dave Till)
Subject: Re: I will, forever, truly hate the Toronto Blue Jays
Organization: Cito's Used Third Basemen Bargain Warehouse, Inc.
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 19:19:35 GMT

In article <Bz2A59.4Ir@ecf.toronto.edu> hora@ecf.toronto.edu (HO ROBERT ANDREW) writes:
>Unfortunately, Stottlemyre is an example of how a decent farm system still
>turns out clunkers (I can't believe they've stayed with this guy for 5 years
>now; he's had no business being in the rotation for 4 of those 5 years,
>and in 1991, was no better than an average no.3 or no.4 starter.

I have been watching Toddles, man and boy, for many years, and
frankly, I still can't figure him out.  4 starts out of 5, he pitches
like a kid making his first major league start:  trying to throw perfect
breaking pitches and missing, then sending a batting practice fastball
down the chute.  But, just when you've given up on him, he goes out
and pitches like Roger Clemens.  (The 1-hitter he threw this year was
mindboggling:  he was overwhelming.)

If Toddles was always bad, the Jays would be justified in giving
up on him, as they gave up on Cerutti.  However, just as inside every fat man
there is a thin man screaming to get out, there is a good major league
pitcher hiding in the soft padding of mediocrity that is Toddles' normal
level of performance.  (How's *that* for a bad metaphor, sports fans?)

>The Jays probably did [Eichhorn] a disservice pitching him 157 innings in 1986
>and 127.2 innings in 1987.  He was pretty terrible in the following 2
>years and that may have been because he was pitched so much in 86 and 87.

I think there is a whole collection of Jays' middle relievers who have
grounds for a class action suit against Jimy 'I've lost an m and don't know
where to find it' Williams.  Eichhorn is not the only pitcher to have
been heavily worked:  Musselman, Wells and Ward were also overburdened,
and only Ward avoided serious arm injury.  (As I've mentioned before:
Mets fans may find it hard to believe, but Jeff Musselman was, briefly,
a great pitcher in 1987.  He had a good fastball, a wicked curve, the
ability to pitch to spots, and the nerve to pitch inside.  Unfortunately,
Jimy broke him.)

--Dave "anybody got a third baseman they're not using?" Till
  e-mail address:  dave@silver.sni.ca or dave@snitor.uucp
From: v085f2wd@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Theodore J Kury)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: yanks/giants rumour, and signings.
Date: 14 Dec 92 22:57:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <Dec.14.16.09.23.1992.14899@pilot.njin.net>, gajarsky@pilot.njin.net (Bob Gajarsky - Hobokenite) writes...
> 
>Rumoured trade - bam bam, silvestri, and pat kelly to the giants
> for matt williams.

Interesting, but I don't see it (which means it's official by now). The 
Giants need a big bat in the 5 hole, and an infield of Clark/Thompson/
Clayton/Williams is light-years ahead of Clark/Kelly/Silvestri/Meulens
(or Clayton/Meulens or Clayton/Silvestri, for that matter). The Giants
effectively lose their 5 and 6 (where Thompson belongs) hitters with just
Meulens to replace them. They'd better hope Bam-Bam does a Sheffield.

With all the infield depth the Giants would have, isn't it a good thing
they kept Mike Benjamin ?

>if true, robby thompson is gone from the giants, silvestri would go

You don't just cut the NL's #2 2b loose (or #3 if you like DeShields #2),
but what can you get for him ? He's not exactly a big name, and his best
years are behind him (now that he's learned to walk, he can't steal
anymore, ironic). I'd let the Yanks keep Silvestri and Kelly, and trade
Williams for Bam-Bam and Militello. 

> to the outfield (or bam bam would), and the giants would come out
> nicely. the yankees would, as well, since williams would give them
> a proven bat , and clear up the second base/shortstop mess.
> 
>bob melvin signs 2 years with the red sox.  why???  eric wedge is
> ten times the player melvin is, at 1/10 the cost.

Because Eric Wedge was lost in the draft.

>mike bielecki signed a AAA contract with theindians.  how the mighty 
> have fallen.

Much better signing than Ojeda. If Bielecki's recovered, he could be a good
#3 starter.

>boggs is down to the dodgers or yankees as his choice..- bob

Dodgers it is if the Yanks get Matt.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ted Kury                        | "One man stands. And the wall ... cracks,   
v085f2wd@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu   | and the wall ... cracks,
SUNY at Buffalo                 | and the wall comes crumbling down" - Anthrax  
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu (Harold_Brooks)
Subject: Re: Stupidest rule in baseball (perhaps a new one)
Organization: NSSL
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 13:36:10 GMT

In article <1992Dec14.124156.3366@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> pablo@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Pablo A Iglesias) writes:
>In article <1992Dec13.092848.370@walter.cray.com> mb@cray.com (Maynard Brandt) writes:
>>My apologies if this replicates an earlier post.  To me the dumbest rule
>>has always been:
>>
>>With 0 or 1 strikes on a batter, a foul ball is a strike.  However, except
>>for a bunt, a foul ball with 2 strikes on a batter is *NOT* a strike.
>>
>>If it isn't a strike the last time, why should a foul ball ever be included
>>in the ball-strike count?
>>
>>I remember someone commenting on a TV broadcast that at one time foul
>>balls weren't included in the ball-strike count.  Does anyone on the
>>net know if this is true or false and, if it is true, when the rule
>>changed?
>
>Yes it was true; Wee Willie Keeler's 44 game hitting streak cam when
>this rule applied.  I am not sure exactly when it changed, but I believe 
>that it was before the 20th century.

It changed in 1901 primarily at the instigation of John McGraw over the
ability of Roy Thomas of the Phillies to foul balls off repeatedly.

Harold
-- 
Harold Brooks                    hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu
National Severe Storms Laboratory (Norman, OK)
"I used to work for a brewery, too, but I didn't drink on the job."
-P. Bavasi on Dal Maxvill's view that Florida can win the NL East in '93
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent)
Subject: Re: KEY SIGNS WITH YANKEES
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 05:24:09 GMT

In <1992Dec11.090143.4643@spcvxb.spc.edu> 5checki_m@spcvxb.spc.edu writes:

>After waking up this morning, I saw that Toronto Blue Jays Pitcher Jimmy Key 
>signed a 4 year, 18 million dollar deal with the New York Yankees. This shores 
>up the Yankee rotation, and gives them three quality starting pitchers. Now if 
>they could only get another, and obtain Joe Orsulak via free agency, might we 
>be talking about a contender.  Comments are welcome!!!!!

As an Orioles fan, I've always been an Orsulak admirer.  He's a great
defensively outfielder and a TWG.  He's Dan Gladden at the plate, 
unfortunately.  Actually, he's Dan Gladden, except he's lefty and has 
a better arm.

So it's really really funny when I read something like "the Yankees are
only Joe Orsulak away from a contender."  (Yes, I know the above quote
also says they need a starting pitcher.  Nevertheless, it's still silly.)

The Yankees have Tartabull/O'Neill/Williams in the outfield.  (And, of
course, Dion James. :))

What in the world would they do with Orsulak?  (Unless, of course,
they're planning to play him at third?  :))

-- 
David M. Nieporent   | Is it too early to start making predictions for 1993?
niepornt@phoenix.    | Probably, but that never stopped me before.
   princeton.edu     | ALE: Baltimore ALW: Chicago NLE: Montreal NLW: Atlanta
Baltimore Orioles 93 | AL MVP: Cal Ripken  AL Cy Young: Mike Mussina
Organization: University of Central Florida--Computer Services
Date: Sunday, 13 Dec 1992 14:07:29 EST
From: Bill Laird <COP80196@UCF1VM.BITNET>
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Giants and Bonds - a $43 million mistake?
 <steph.723980931@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu> <92345.100327COP80196@UCF1VM.BITNET>
 <75523@apple.apple.COM>


In article <75523@apple.apple.COM>, chuq@Apple.COM (Eeyore's Evil Twin) says:

>You know, it's funny (at least to me). Magowan was on KNBR this week being
>interviewed, and he noted that of the six GM candidates he interviewed, all
>six said the Giants #1 need was a power-hitting, left-handed hitting
>outfielder that could protect Will Clark.
>
>I guess none of them know what they're talking about, right?

Sounds like they are playing it the 'safeway' and kissing some big time ass!

>(I posted in this thread earlier my feelings about this. I still fail to see
>why a starting rotation based on Brantley, Burkett and Black, with Beck and
>Swift kicking tail in the bullpen, is a disaster if you have a team that
>gets them three or four runs a game instead of one or two)

With all due respect to the above mentioned players - and they are great
ballplayers, I think there is still a great need for improvement. We need
one true tested all star in the pitching staff. Not just for his pitching
talents, but for his leadership role. And yes, I think Dave Stewart would
have been such the person...

Bill
From: lynch@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Howard Lynch)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 18:16:50 GMT
Subject: Re: All-Time Padre team
Organization: OCD IC MFG
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball

OK, here's my .02 worth.  I was in SD in 1969, but don't remember if I
actually went to Opening Day :-)

>/ hpcc01:rec.sport.baseball / demers@cs.ucsd.edu (David DeMers) /  8:34 pm  Dec 12, 1992 /
>So, this team isn't really horrible, actually...
>C 	Santiago
>	Kennedy

Agree!

>1B	McGriff
>	Colbert

This assumes that McGriff will be around/healthy for another couple of
years, and I think (hope?) we can count on that.  Otherwise, Colbert provided
 a lot of thrills for Padre fans during some LEAN years!  My favorite was the 
day he socked 5 HR's in a doubleheader in Atlanta.  Still in the record book
along with Stan-the-Man.

>2B	Bip Roberts
>	Roberto Alomar, just for the nice three seasons...
>	Alan Wiggins

Why Bip ahead of Roberto?  If longevity means anything, then we must
include Tim Flannery.  He did get some key HBP's :-)

>SS	Ozzie Smith/Garry Templeton (both hit better in StLouis...)
>	Enzo Hernandez (my favorite Padre...)

Agree!  Ozzie was the best, but Tempe was a core to the '84 pennent team.

>3B	Nettles
>	Sheffield
>	Ed Spiezio :-)
>(it's been a tougher position for the Padres than for the Mets)

Let's hope Sheffield rises to the top of this miserable field :-)

>LF	Colbert maybe, ... Kevin McReynolds

Well, this is my strongest vote: Gene Richards!  He's my favorite pre-Gwynn
Padre.  This guy was underrated.  Sure he had a stinky arm, which is why
they ran on him enough to lead the league in OF assists (more than once?),
but he hustled on defense, and hit .300+ and stole bases, and provided
excitement, on the post-Colbert LEAN teams.

>CF	oops.  Cito Gaston?

I'd put McReynolds here.  Maybe Jerry Mumphrey?  Not a glamour position
in Padre history :-)

>RF	Tony Gwynn
>	Dave Winfield
>	Ollie Brown

As much as I'm still bitter over Winfield, he does have a quite a place
in Padre history.

>SP	Randy Jones, Gaylord Perry, Bruce Hurst

Yes, Whitson belongs here also.  Too bad :-)

>RP	Rollie Fingers, Goose Gossage

Right on.  Give Butch Metzger an honorable mention for his 1 good season :-)
 
>Manager: Dick Williams

Yes, without a doubt!

How about:

Pitching Coach: Roger Craig  (I think he is one of the worst managers ever,
                              but you can't deny the success he had as a 
                              pitching coach with the Padres.)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Re: The best All-Time Team?  Indians
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: /usr/local/lib/news/organization
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 21:37:31 GMT

In article <1992Dec15.103611.1@csusb> jimbo@csusb writes:
>OF   Tris Speaker
>OF   Joe Jackson (If only he'd stayed in Erie Town)
>OF   Earl Averill

I'd put Brett Butler ahead of Averill.

It's hard to believe that not one of the players in the last
twenty years for the Indians merits a spot on their all-time
team -- they've had Franco, Butler... Joe Carter also, though
he clearly isn't one of their best three outfielders.

>            The Bench
>
>C    Ray Fosse
>IF   Ken Keltner
>IF   Joe Sewell
>OF   Rocky Colavito (I know others may be better, but he still is
>                     an icon in Cleveland)

Certainly Franco deserves a spot...
-- 
ted frank                     | thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu 
standard disclaimers          | void where prohibited
the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637