HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cweiss@ccu.umanitoba.ca (christopher gene weiss)
Subject: Himalayan Pre-Buddism Myths
Summary: Subject line says it...
Keywords: Himalayan, myths, Pon
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 06:07:55 GMT

I am currently searching from various Himayalan cultures myths that may date
to before Buddism had an impact in that area. Would any body know about the 
"Pon" culture and what myths they told? Also interested in possible origins
of Yeti beliefs and of the mystical "Shangri-La". Any help greatly appreciated.

Chris Weiss
Cweiss@ccu.umanitoba.ca
Xref: sparky alt.mythology:1664 sci.anthropology:744
From: lilorenzin@apollo.davidson.edu (...FLAME)
Subject: dog mythos
Organization: Davidson College, Davidson, NC
Reply-To: lilorenzin@apollo.davidson.edu
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 17:46:57 GMT
X-Posted-From: apollo.davidson.edu
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

in buddhism, aren't there a pair of yellow dogs, male and
female, that guard?  'the dogs of fo' i think they're called,
fo being buddha.  as far as i remember, they're the only 
animals/beings allowed to kill, and that only in defense.  if
not, how 'bout the gabriel hounds?  i remember even less about
them, but i think they're a british isles myth... i'll look 'em
up & post more later.

----------------------------------------------------------------
...flame			...many waters cannot quench love.
lilorenzin@davidson		   lilorenzin@apollo.davidson.edu
Newsgroups: alt.mythology,sci.anthropology
From: std_beaulieu@hg.uleth.ca
Subject: quetz.
Reply-To: std_beaulieu@hg.uleth.ca
Organization: University of Lethbridge
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 16:34:57 GMT

       > if you are into anthro at all, Mashall Sahlins book on the 
       Aztec in good on this. Also Peggy Sanday: Divine Hunger, altho 
       limited in how she extrapoltaes for other enthnographies, has 
       some interesting ideas on ritual scrifice/cannabalism in the 
       Aztec ritual complex. Quetz is actually a god that the Aztecs 
       took over and "rewrote" from the Totecs after the aztecs 
       conquered these same toltecs. he is the "gentle" side of that 
       pantheon which appears to be order/chaos preoccupied if ever 
       anyone was.
       I live in an area replete with mormons. the myhts of their 
       church, which show heavy 19th century
       >  strains (manifest Destiny, Spenserian philosophy, the idea the 
       the native americans are the lost 10 tribes of Israel) do indeed 
       claim that instead of going to hell after he died on the cross, 
       Jesus manifested himself in North America....however all that 
       they claim he did here in those three days amounts to more than 
       he managed to complete in 30 years in Judah/Israel.
       I am afraid that if you look at the whole package they offer, if 
       may seem a bit racist after a while........ 
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: HOLFELTZ@LSTC2VM.stortek.com
Subject: Re: mormons
Organization: StorageTek SW Engineering
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 14:41:45 GMT

In article <1992Aug21.024055.2478@honte.uleth.ca>
std_beaulieu@hg.uleth.ca writes:
 
>     << ...  deleted text  ... >>
 
Please take your rantings and ravings of religion to Talk.Religion.Misc;
it doesn't belong here on alt.mythology (at least not what's been written
so far).
 
 
A poor Wayfaring Stranger [some say, a Strange One] in a strange land,
 
 +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
 | Disclaimer: Not my employer's opinion; probably                     |
 |             not your's either; and                                  |
 |             only mine, when authorized!                             |
 |                                                                     |
 |                                   Try: Roger_Holfeltz@stortek.com   |
 +---------------------------------------------------------------------+
 
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: std_beaulieu@hg.uleth.ca
Subject: mormons
Reply-To: std_beaulieu@hg.uleth.ca
Organization: University of Lethbridge
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 02:40:55 GMT

at the risk of sounding defensive....i thin you are a rascist 
       church. the legend if i may so term it of the lamanites in the 
       Book of Mormon, and the active missionary work done among the 
       natives here in Southern Alberta, where they are told that theie 
       skin color will change if they convert and wipe out the sin of 
       laman points to this. also the story re the black people, on 
       which the LDS church based the claim that black people could not 
       hold the priesthood. unless things have changed a lot in Utah, i 
       can assure you that they have not done so here. there are many 
       positive aspects to your religion but for me they are outweighed 
       by the above facts and the expected role of women in the church 
       (lds) my women friends who are L.D.S. are expected to bear 
       children and to support their husbands. many of them have given 
       up outstanding careers and degrees at the urging of the church. 
       the L.D.S. philosophy is "paterfamilias" all the way, and the 
       rhetoric is even more subversive than the original roman one that 
       bore the name.
       sorry.......we're not like that any more just isn't true, it is 
       part of fundamental church dogma and had not changed. (unless 
       you're thinking of bringing out a new version of the Book of 
       Mormon).
From: tffreeba@indyvax.iupui.edu
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Re: The creation of Eve
Date: 12 Aug 92 16:43:01 GMT
Organization: Indiana University

I think we can look to the Great Mother/Earth Goddess for some of the
answers to this question.  

In the beginning there was woman.  Or so it must have seemed to the
first sentient beings somewhere along the Australopithicine/Homo
sapien line.

Without the knowlege of the biological link between the sexes and
procreation, the inescapable logic was that all life came from the
female. When it came time to explain cosmogenesis and the etiology of
natural phenomena, it must have been a small step to take to see the
power behind the universe as female.

Somewhere between prehistory and "civilization" this Great Mother got
supplanted by male gods. But She did not go easy and there was a lot
of explaining that had to be done to put Her in Her new place.

The Sumerians had Tiamat the dragon (a type of serpent,) the mother of
Chaos, being defeated by the sky god and cut up into the Earth and sky.

The Greeks had Gaia defeated in Her last attempt at primacy (the
challenge of her son Typhoeus the dragon/serpent) by Zeus the sky god.

There certainly are possible connections between these myths and the one
of Adam and Eve and his primacy and her alliance with a serpent.

As to the idea of the rib being a phallic symbol:  this idea too may be
reflected in the Greek mythos.  Some trace Aphrodite to a version of the
Great Goddess in Asia Minor.  Her later birth myth, that has her being
born from the severed genitals of Uranus, may be a wilder rendition than
that which comes to us from the Hebrew tradition.

Just some thoughts.

Btw there are many places on Earth with higher than background radiation
that occur naturally and have jack to do with prehistoric nuclear conflict.

Thomas Freebairn  
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: mmussell@fmgu25.intel.com (Morgan Mussell ~)
Subject: Re: marduk
Organization: Intel Corporation, Santa Clara, CA USA
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 18:15:21 GMT

>     The female is also the source of life's energy, which in India is known
>as "shakti." The female, that is to say, is nature, the male society. The
>female is the source of the male's power and energy, and without her, he is
>nothing. 

There are flip-side conceptions to most all of these things, which may be
part of the point of noting that who rules the sky, and who rules the earth,
and whose on first, is not absolute from culture to culture.

Here the concept quoted is Hindu, Shiva - still, Shakti - energetic and moving.
In some aspects of Buddhism it's exactly the opposite, Divine Feminine
- still, Divine Masculine - active,  (ref:  Govinda, Foundations_of_Tibetan_
Mysticism).


>                               The female is closer to the unconscious and
>hence more "instinctive" and "intuitive," and therefore much less likely to
>go astray psychologically. The male is more "conscious" and more "rational,"
>and for that very reason more susceptible to psychological disorders. 

This is sort of the "rational" conception, restated in the West perhaps, most
recently by Jung.  It does not fit my experience, however.  As an intern at
a local counseling center for the past 2 year, I haven't noticed that either
gender has a monopoly on psychological disorders. 

                                                                       >The
>male, for example, almost always regards life itself from the rational stand-
>point of "waking conscioussnes," and as a result, always comes up with the
>answer "no" to life, as in the case of Schopenhauer's famous line, "Life is
>something that sould not have been." From the irrational standpoint, however,--
>i.e. the feminine--the answer always comes up with an emphatic "yes," 

Again, this stikes me as stereotype rather than any statement of what I
experience --- although, (alas) watching the Republicans I can see what 
perpetuates the stereotype.


Morgan Mussell                mmussell@mcd.intel.com


Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: uubrian@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov (Brian Bentz)
Subject: The phoenix
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center
Date: 17 Aug 1992 13:23 EST  

	Can anyone relate any information(or point toward some good
mythology books) regarding the phoenix... I know the basic storyline
behind it, but I was wondering if there is any more to it than that.
Thanks much!

Brian

Newsgroups: alt.mythology,sci.anthropology
From: rspear@sookit (Richard Spear)
Subject: Re: The creation of Eve
Organization: Image Analysis Systems Group, JPL
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 22:48:01 GMT

##loki...odin...frija...

isn't this wagner's ring trilogy?

--
richard
rspear@sookit.jpl.nasa.gov
all disclaimers apply
Xref: sparky alt.mythology:1666 sci.anthropology:747
From: lmollett@lunatix.uucp (Laura Mollett)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology,sci.anthropology
Subject: Re: The creation of Eve
Date: 15 Aug 92 16:10:57 GMT
Organization: Lexington Public Access Unix. -KY- (606) 253-1481

In article <1992Aug14.224801.20818@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov> rspear@sookit (Richard Spear) writes:
>##loki...odin...frija...
>
>isn't this wagner's ring trilogy?

Yep :).  Only in the ring trilogy the giant wins and Odin has to give away the
ring to keep Freya and he isn't very happy about it.  'Course it's prolly
Wodin because the ring trilogy is based on the Germanic versions rather than
the Norse which explains some of the differences in the stories.
				Laura Mollett
>
>--
>richard
>rspear@sookit.jpl.nasa.gov
>all disclaimers apply
From: lmollett@lunatix.uucp (Laura Mollett)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Re: The creation of Eve
Date: 14 Aug 92 16:42:40 GMT
Organization: Lexington Public Access Unix. -KY- (606) 253-1481

In article <l8j0vqINN3d6@news.bbn.com> ingria@BBN.COM writes:
>In article <92225.125915TIP@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> TIP@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU writes:
>priestesses power'', so much as that they are chthonic (earth)
>symbols.  Philip Jose Farmer's simple statement of the battle as being
>between ``the guy in the sky'' and ``the woman in the ground'' is
>pretty much on the money.  The attributes of Satan in the Christian
>mythos are essentially derived from chthonian entities:
	I'm not sure whether snakes represent the female earth or whether they
are a phallic symbol reflecting the fertilization of the earth...i.e. the
snakes squirm through mother earth and she becomes pregnant.  The           
correspondance between long, skinny things with slightly thicker heads that
shed there skins is rather obvious.  Siva's "lingum" (phallus) (Hindu/Indian
mythology) is represented as very "snake-like" and there is a reference in
Norse myth to Odin's seed spilt on the ground which looks like worms and
burrows through the earth giving birth to the dwarves. 

Given this kind of symbolism, I'd say the snake in the Eve myth is more likely 
to have "corrupted" Her by carnal knowledge than to be a part of the same 
Mother figure.  I think there are several myths in various mythology's where 
the original Mother gives birth to the first Man after being visited by a 
primal snake or dragon figure, but I can't remember them off the top of my
head and some of that idea may have from the _Women's Encyclopedia_ which
I'm not always sure is the best source.  Anyone know is this is a birth
myth from the peoples around the Hebrews at the time?

Also, while I don't think there is much evidence of _one_ coherent Earth
Mother cult that was really wide-spread, I had gotten the impression that
the Mother cult in the peoples close to the Hebrews was really well-documented
and that the idea that the Genesis myth was a corruption of these in an
attempt (or many attempts :) to keep their own people in line was reasonably
well-founded.  This is really out of my area tho :)
>
>Satan as serpent - snakes are usually venerated by archaic and
>	classical agricultural societies; cf. the snake cult of Minoan
>	Crete; the sacred serpent on the Acropolis; the serpent of
>	Athena, etc.
	 
	I can't think of a mythology that _doesn't_ have some sort of snake
or dragon cult, not just agricultural societies.  Of course both the
Indian and the Norse have a big God figure who kills the terrible snake.
And it seems like almost "any" God that was outside the JudeoChristian
mythology was happily relegated to hell, like Lucifer (Gk. Lightbringer)/
Lugh (Celtic Light God).  There's nothing nasty about him.  He just isn't
Judeo-Christian, and far as I can tell, nothing that connects him to
the Earth Mother. 
[Other interesting comments deleted throughout] 
>-30-
>Bob
			Laura Mollett
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra)
Subject: Re: Qeutzcoatl
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 19:04:26 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.050928.2548@midway.uchicago.edu> gc14@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>Hi there!  I just started reading this newsgroup and would like to ask for some information.  I was recently speaking with a friend of mine who is Mormon (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints)
>and she said something about Quetzcoatl (forgive my spelling, pleeease!!!)
>being some kind of incarnation of Jesus.  I forget the details, and I was wondering
>if anyone here could shed some light on it.
>All that I really know about Quetzy is that he/she was a major diety who 
>manifested in the form of a winged snake (the name is a combination of two
> Mayan? words meaning "feather" and "serpent", I think)  
>I also seem to remember reading somewhere that Quetz left, but promised to 
>return someday (Bible-parallel?) and there was some kind of rebirth (Another
>Bible parallel?)
>Any info that you could give to me would be appreciated.  And any recommendations
>on where would be a good place to look for info would also be gratefully
>accepted.
>Thanks in advance!!!!!
>
>gc14@ellis.uchicago.edu

If I may make so bold, the Mormons are mostly wackos. Their religion was
invented out of whole cloth in the early 1800s and later carried west by
a well known polygamyst who could no more come to terms with women being
individual, free thinking people than Cotton Mather and his lot could.

As for any parallels between Quetzocoatl and Jesus, if you look hard enough
you can find parallels between any two totally unrelated mythologies.

Try checking your library fro books on Mayan and Aztec religion, or try
a bookstore that deals in books on mythologies, religions, and basic
metaphysical studies.

Sorry for the flames in the first paragraph. They're not directed at you
personally.

Corun
From: kyee@caesar.mit.edu (Kenneth Yee)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Re: Dog Mythos
Date: 15 Aug 92 16:05:46 GMT
Reply-To: kyee@mtl.mit.edu
Organization: Massachvsetts Institvte of Technology

In article <1992Aug11.005214.12316@csl.sri.com> pcorless@cisco.com (Peter  
Corless) writes:
[original request for dog mythos deleted]

> In the Irish epic, the Ta/in Bo/ Cuailgne, the Ulster Hero got his name  
"Cu/
> Chulainn", which means "The Hound of Culann" by killing the fierce  
protecting
> dog of the smith Chulann.
> 
> Later, in the Fenian cycle, Finn MacCoul obtains much help from his  
she-dog
> companion (who's name I can't remember off hand, sorry!)... This  
remarkable
> beast is capable of speech, and is as intelligent as a human.
> 
> Dogs are regarded with honor in Irish mythology. They are the companions  
of
> men in the hunt and in war.
> 
> Note that this is all Irish Celtic tradition; the continental Celtic
> traditions probably have distinctly different variations.

As an aside to this discussion, I came across an essay by Geza Roheim that  
looks at Cu-Culainn (sp!) from a Freudian perspective.  I think Roheim's  
argument is based on Freud's primal horde theory (see Freud's _Totem and  
Taboo_), which, as I understand it, isn't widely accepted among  
anthropologists.  Also, Roheim's writing's aren't very readable. :)
Anyways, this essay can be found in a book edited by Lowell Edmunds and  
Alan Dundes: _Oedipus:  A Folklore Casebook_.  New York: Garland 1983.   
This book, by the way looks at the Oedipus tale-type as opposed to the  
Sophocles play.
Newsgroups: alt.mythology,sci.anthropology
From: mimir@milton.u.washington.edu (Al Billings)
Subject: Re: The creation of Eve
Organization: The Friends of Loki Society
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 03:44:11 GMT

In article <1992Aug15.161057.19419@lunatix.uucp> lmollett@lunatix.uucp (Laura Mollett) writes:
>
>Yep :).  Only in the ring trilogy the giant wins and Odin has to give away the
>ring to keep Freya and he isn't very happy about it.  'Course it's prolly
>Wodin because the ring trilogy is based on the Germanic versions rather than
>the Norse which explains some of the differences in the stories.

 Actually, Wagner borrowed VERY heavily from the Saga of the Volsungs when
he wrote The Ring. Perhaps even more so than from the German version,
which was very much a romantic piece. 

Wassail,
Al Billings

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| Al Billings - Anthropology Undergrad - Admin for the Troth-l Mailing List | 
| SysOp of The Sacred Grove BBS (206)634-1980 -=- mimir@u.washington.edu    |
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Xref: sparky alt.mythology:1660 sci.anthropology:742
From: mimir@milton.u.washington.edu (Al Billings)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology,sci.anthropology
Subject: Norse Mythology
Date: 15 Aug 92 01:29:01 GMT
Organization: The Friends of Loki Society

In article <1992Aug13.173151.17738@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> scls_ss@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Eric Scoles) writes:
>
>It wasn't Odin in the Norse -- I _think_ it was Ymir, his father.  (Don't
>have the books right here, but I could look it up at my _other_ place.) Lots
>of spontaneous generation through the mingling of cold & hot was going on,
>too, and I'm sure there's plenty that could be made sexually of that.  But I
>digress. 

 Ymir was not Odhinn's father. Bur was Odhinn's father, along with Odhinn's
two brothers (often thought to be forms of Odhinn). Bestla was Odhinn's
mother and she was the daughter of the giant Bolthorn.

Wassail,
Al Billings aka Grendel

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| Al Billings - Anthropology Undergrad - Admin for the Troth-l Mailing List | 
| SysOp of The Sacred Grove BBS (206)634-1980 -=- mimir@u.washington.edu    |
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Newsgroups: alt.mythology,sci.anthropology
From: kyee@caesar.mit.edu (Kenneth Yee)
Subject: Earth Mother and Sky Father
Reply-To: kyee@mtl.mit.edu
Organization: Massachvsetts Institvte of Technology
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 17:52:45 GMT

I recently re-read an essay by K. Numazawa on "The Cultural-Historical  
Background of Myths on the Separation of Sky and Earth," reprinted in  
_Sacred Narrative_ edited by Alan Dundes, p 182.  The essay includes an  
outline, which I (sort of) reproduce here:

I.  Before the separation
	A.  Mutual relationship between Sky and Earth
		1.  Sky and Earth in combination
		2.  Sky and Earth Lying One over the Other
			a.  S & E as natural phenomena
			b.  S & E as man and woman (respectively)
	B.  Primitive conditions on Earth (Reasons for separation)
		1.  Darkness
		2.  Harm to agricultual producs
		3.  Other disadvantages
II.  Separation of S&E
	A.  Manner of separation (Banishment of Heaven)
	B.  Agents of separation
		1.  Woman; a Woman who pounds rice
		2.  Sun, fire, wood
III.  Conclusion
	A. Summary of the General Idea
	B. Product of the Matriarchal Cultural Spheres
	C. Cradle of the Idea

This essay basically describes details found in many of these tales,  
relates the tales to agricultural societies and matriarchal culture.   
Numazawa doesn't reach any conclusion as to the geographical origin of  
these ideas.

Anyways, the motif of Earth Mother and Sky Father (A625) is very  
widespread.  But there is another motif of Heaven-Mother and Earth-Father  
(A625.1).  Is anyone in net.land familiar with tales that include the  
latter motif?  I'm wondering if they are cognate to the earth mother/sky  
father tales, or if they originated separately.  Also, how do their  
cultures differ?

				Thanks,
				Ken
				kyee@mtl.mit.edu
Newsgroups: alt.mythology