From: schabel@calspan.com (Dave Schabel)
Subject: Re: democratic platform
Keywords: significant words from a document used as an index to content
Organization: Calspan Advanced Technology Center
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 23:15:09 GMT

In article <Bu8pBE.5MK@news.cso.uiuc.edu> StarWatcher@uiuc.edu writes:
>
>Funny.  Whenever I looked at the Second Amendment, I always interpreted it
>in this way: because of X, Y will be the rule, where X = "A well-regulated
>militia, being necessary to the security of a free State," and Y = "the
>right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." [Emphasis
>mine]  In other words, IMO if you get rid of the 'X' part of the Second
>Amendment, and keep the 'Y' part, you have not changed the apparent meaning
>of the Amendment.
>
>I have trouble figuring out how people can read the Amendment and interpret
>it to mean "The right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed for people
>in the militia."  That 'people' in the text of the amendment, IMO, should
>make this interpretation illogical.
>
>In other words, regardless of whether or not a person fits the legal definition
>of "militia member," they have the right to keep and bear arms, IMO.
>
>

Finally!  Someone who can correctly parse an English sentence into
its component phrases without distorting their meaning!
Congratulations!

One further point is that according to the founding fathers, the
militia consists of the citizens of the US.  A few of the many
statements made to that effect follow:


         "On every question of construction (of the constitution) let us
         carry  ourselves  back  to  the time when the Constitution  was
         adopted,  recollect  the  spirit manifested in the debates, and
         instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text,
         or invented against it, conform to the probable one in which it
         was passed." (Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Johnson, June
         12, 1823, The Complete Jefferson, p.322)

Sorry, Kevin, but Jefferson's opinions and yours seem to differ here.

         "The right of the  people  to keep and bear...arms shall not be
         infringed.   A well regulated militia, composed of the body  of
                                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
         the  people,  trained  to  arms,  is  the best and most natural
	 ^^^^^^^^^^^
         defense of  a  free  country..."  (James  Madison,  I Annals of
         Congress 434, June 8, 1789)

Madison seems to back up Frank and Andy on this one, Kevin!

         "I ask,  sir,  what  is  the  militia?  It is the whole people,
         except for a  few  public officials." (George Mason, 3 Elliott,
         Debates at 425-426)

And Mason, too! 

         "A militia,  when  properly  formed,  are  in  fact  the people
         themselves...  and  include  all men capable of bearing arms."
         (Richard Henry Lee, Senator, First Congress, Additional Letters
         from the Federal Farmer (1788) at 169)

My, my!  It seems you are outnumbered, Darcy!  But what do the likes of
Mason, Jefferson, Madison, and Lee know about Con Law?

         "Congress have no power to disarm  the  militia.  Their swords,
         and  every  other terrible implement of the  soldier,  are  the
         birthright of an American...  The unlimited power  of the sword
         is not in the hands of either the federal  or state government,
	    ^^^ ^^ ^^^ ^^^^^ ^^ ^^^^^^ ^^^ ^^^^^^^  ^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^
         but, where I trust in God it will ever remain,  in the hands of
         the people"  (Tench Coxe, Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788)

What?  

         "As civil  rulers,  not  having  their  duty to the people duly
         before them, may  attempt  to  tyrannize,  and  as the military
         forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country,
         might  pervert  their  power to  the  injury  of  their  fellow
         citizens,  the people are confirmed by  the  article  in  their
         right  to  keep and bear their private  arms."  (Tench  Cox  in
					^^^^^^^
         "Remarks on the First Part of the Amendments  to  the  Federal
         Constitution."  Under  the  pseudonym  "A Pennsylvanian" in the
         Philadelphia Federal Gazette, June 18,1789 at 2 col.  1)

         "The supposed  quietude  of  a  good  man  allures the ruffian;
         while on the other hand, arms like laws discourage and keep the
         invader and the plunderer  in  awe,  and  preserve order in the
         world as well as property.  The same balance would be preserved
         were all the world destitute of  arms,  for all would be alike;
         but  since some will not, others dare  not  lay  them  aside...
         Horrid  mischief would ensue were one half the  world  deprived
         the use of them..." (Thomas Paine, I writings of  Thomas  Paine
         at 56 (1894))

         "To preserve liberty, it is essential  that  the  whole body of
         people always  possess  arms,  and  be taught alike, especially
         when young, how to use  them..."  (Richard  Henery  Lee,  1788,
         Initiator of the Declaration of Independence, and member of the
         first Senate, which passed the Bill of Rights.)[5]

         "A  free  people  ought...to be armed..."  (George  Washington,
         speech of January 7, 1790 in the  Boston Independent Chronicle,
         January 14, 1790)

         "The great object is  that every man be armed.  Everyone who is
         able  may  have  a  gun."   (Patrick  Henry,  in  the  Virginia
         Convention on the ratification of the Constitution.)[1]

         "That  the  said  Constitution  shall  never  be  construed  to
         authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press or
         the  rights of conscience;  or to prevent  the  people  of  The
         United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own
         arms..." (Samuel Adams)[4]

Come, come Sam.  Surely you had intended to say "the people of the
United States who are peaceable citizens of an organized militia."

         "No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
         (Thomas  Jefferson,  proposal Virginia Constitution, June 1776,
         1 T. Jeferson Papers,334 (C.J. Boyd, Ed.,1950))

This must have been taken out of context.  Surely it reads:  ... arms,
while in the service of an organized militia!

         "The strongest reason for the people to  retain  the  right  to
         keep and bear arms is, as a last  resort, to protect themselves
         agianst tyrany in government." (Thomas Jefferson)

         "As  civil rulers, not having their duty  to  the  people  duly
         before  them,  may  attempt to tyrannize, and as  the  military
         forces  which  must  be  occassionally  raised  to  defend  our
         country,  might  pervert  their  powers  to the injury of their
         fellow-citizens, the  people  are confirmed by the next article
         [the Second Amendment]  in  their  right to keep and bear their
         private  arms."  (from  article  in  the  Philadelphia  Federal
         by Tench Cox ten days  after  the  introduction  of the Bill of
         Rights)[7]


...............................................................................

         [1]  Debates   and  other  Proceedings  of  the  Convention  of
         Virginia,...taken  in  shorthand    by    David   Robertson  of
         Petersburg, at 271, 275 (2d ed.    Richmond,  1805).    Also  3
         Elliot, Debates at 386.

         [4]  Debates  and  Proceedings    in   the  Convention  of  the
         Commonwealth of Massachusetts, at 86-87  (Peirce  & Hale, eds.,
         Boston, 1850)

         [5] Walter Bennett, ed., Letters from the Federal Farmer to the
         Republican, at 21,22,124(Univ.  of Alabama Press,1975).

         [7] Philadelphia Federal Gazette June 18, 1789 at 2, col. 1


I give up.  Given the choice of believing the founding fathers quoted
above and Kevin Darcy, who KNOWS what the second means, because it's
crystal clear to him, I don't know WHO to believe! :^)
(Plus a few extra smileys for all of the above sarcastic comments; place
them wherever you deem appropriate: :^) ;^} :') :^) :^) :^)   )

					Dave Schabel


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