From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: Pro-life vs. Pro-abortion
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 14:16:39 GMT

In <21627@rpp386.lonestar.org> jfh@rpp386.lonestar.org (John F. Haugh II) writes:

>In article <1992Sep25.152526.30182@watson.ibm.com> johniac@austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti) writes:
>>I'm starting to understand your confusion now.  "Readable" in this
>>context means "detectable", not "differentiable".

>Probably so.  Fred's reading comprehension is pretty damned close to
>zero as it is.  But just so Fred can see it again (this being about
>the sixth or seventh time now ...), here is the line in question -

This is as opposed to John, who simply redefines all the words to mean
what he wants and then claims 100% correctness.

>	40 days		The baby's brain waves can be detected,
>			recorded, and even read by a doctor.

>This doesn't say what "read" means, but then Fred's assertion is that
>the brain isn't even producing "brain waves" since the brain isn't
>there yet.

See what I mean?  Now what kind of redefinition did John have to go
through to be able to claim that that was my assertion.  My assertion,
by the way, for the reading impaired (i.e. John Haugh II) is that
READABLE HUMAN BRAINWAVES aren't there, because SOME PARTS of the
brain which are required for a full set of brainwaves aren't present.

John seems to have this major problem with conditional words and
thoughts. 

>What is interesting is the next one -

>	8 weeks		The fetus now looks like a little human baby.
>			Fetus in Latin means "young one" or "offspring".
>			It now has muscles, and cartilage that will soon
>			change into true bone.  Movement begins, although
>			the mother won't feel it for another few weeks.
>			For several weeks now the baby has been capable
>			of feeling pain; it can even be taught conditioned
>			response.

>[ NB: this is 8 weeks after conception ]

Let me see now.  This must mean that John expects his "little human
baby" to be born with a tail (among other things).  Knowing John, I
would not be surprised.  However, human babies generally don't have a
caudal appendage.  Note that in human babies, the caudal extension
doesn't disappear until during the 3rd month.  

Something John seems to not understand is that it's not NUMBER of
sources, but rather the credibility and authority of the sources that
matters.  Given that, let's take a look in Clinical Embryology for
Medical Students, Third Edition by Richard S. Snell, M.D., Ph.D., 
pp. 70-75


|-------------------------------------------|
|  16th  | Further rapid growth in fetal    |
|        |   length.                        |
|        | Eyes widely separated but        |
|        |   eyelids fused.                 |
|        | Auricles of ear high up on side  |
|        |   of head.                       |
|        | Fetus looks human.               |
|-------------------------------------------|

Don't look now, but 16 weeks sounds significantly later than the 8
weeks John claims.  And "the mother won't feel it for another few
weeks"?  If we start at WEEK 8, that "another few weeks" comes out to
be about *3 MONTHS*, since quickening doesn't happen until around week
20 (about 4 weeks after the foetus "looks human" AT WEEK 16).

As for "pain" and "conditioned response", it would seem that by this
criteria things like flatworms or some species of plants are 'human'.
After all, you can cut a worm (which has practically no brain to speak
of) and it will 'react as if in pain' -- in other words, it will react
if injured.  Plants are phototropic, and hence react to outside
stimuli as well.  Does that make them 'human'?

[One of John's favorite 'factoids' is that the fluid uptake of the
foetus can be changed by making the amniotic fluid 'sour' (does this
mean that John goes around drinking amniotic fluid so he can know --
and since there are no taste buds until QUITE late, is this really
reasonable?).  Of course, one can change the fluid uptake of a plant
by changing the composition of the fluid, too.  Yep, sure sounds like
that makes plants human to me, John.

>Ain't got no brain, sure can't feel no pain ...

Well, now that we know what JOHN'S problem is ...

-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
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Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
Newsgroups: tx.politics,alt.politics.clinton