From: jon.taylor@uuserv.cc.utah.edu (JON M. TAYLOR)
Subject: Re: Monitored by islam (repost)
Organization: University of Utah Computer Center
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 00:41:34 GMT

In article <12084@scott.ed.ac.uk> iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Ivan A Derzhanski) writes:
>From: iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Ivan A Derzhanski)
>Subject: Re: Monitored by islam (repost)
>Date: 15 Dec 92 22:22:31 GMT
>In article <1992Dec13.111626.1@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au> phs179b@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au (Dien Rice) writes:
>>In article <jon.taylor.58.723926261@uuserv.cc.utah.edu>, jon.taylor@uuserv.cc.utah.edu (JON M. TAYLOR) writes:
>>> 	AHEM.  I'm an Atheist, and I don't believe in stong atheism (i.e. 
>>> saying that there IS NOT a god, rather than saying that it's EXTRMELY 
>>> unlikely that there is one).  I imagine that few would take the position of 
>>> strong atheism.  Luckily, most atheists are not as thick as most fanatical 
>>> muslims.
>>
>>Dictionary definition: 
>>
>>Atheism, n.  The doctrine or belief that there is no God or that the assertion
>>of his existence is meaningless.
>
>Don't trust that dictionary too much.  (By the way, look up "Islam".)
>
>>By the way, I have NEVER made a blanket negative statement about atheists the
>>way you have above about Muslims.  You are the equivalent of a racist, Jon.

	I made the exact same statement about Muslims that you made about 
atheists (of the form "luckily not all xxxxx are as thick as you").  Please 
tell me how that qualifies me as a racist (seeing as how there are muslim 
members of every race on the planet).  What I objected to was you telling us 
what we believe.  There are very few things that annoy me as much as people 
telling me what I believe.

>
>Certainly not.  Discrimination based on religion (even if J Taylor
>were guilty of it, which I don't think he is) is by no means
>equivalent to discrimination based on race.  One may choose to keep or
>reject the former; there is nothing one can do about the latter.

	Actually, I think religious discrimination is as bad as racial 
discrimination, but only in some ways.  For example, if your religion (or 
the way that you individually interpret it) causes you to be a dickhead to 
the people around you, they have a right to be pissed at you for that 
without be labeled as discriminatory.  

>
>>> 	There is only one type of atheism.  If the communists executed 
>>> people, it was for political reasons.  I'm SURE I could dig up a LOT of 
>>> references to religiously-backed genocide WRT islam.
>>
>>If communism was NOT atheist,
>
>What would it mean for communism to be atheist?

	I think he's referring to atheism being an 'integral part' of 
communism, like a lot of people think that a market economy is an integral 
part of democracy (neither statement is true, BTW).


>
>>do you think they would be oppressive to religious people??????
>
>Of course.  The bulk of oppression of religious people has been
>carried out by other religious people.

	People oppress other people.  Religion is just an excuse.  There are 
others.

>
>>As for your assertion of religiously-backed genocide WRT islam, I think that
>>your understanding of Islamic history is clearly weak.  While Islamic history
>>is most certainly not perfect, WRT how it treats the adherents of other
>>religions Islam has one of the best records.
>
>Oh dear.  One of the best?  Name two religions which have worse records.
>
>My own home country was under Ottoman occupation for 500 (five hundred)
>years, and during all that time non-Muslims (Christians and Jews) were
>_de jure_ second-class, _de facto_ tenth-class subjects of the Sultan,
>Allah's shadow on Earth; and hordes of turbanned men haunted the place,
>feeling welcome to do what they wished with the property, the body
>and the life of every non-Muslim they met.  They believed that their
>religion endorsed this kind of activity, since a Kafir, as an enemy of
>Allah, was not quite human anyway, and women were only made for men to
>use as they pleased.
>
>>I have not made any broad generalizations of atheists, and I have not
>>made any general unfavourable remarks about atheists.  In fact, I
>>have a number of friends who happen to be atheists, whose views I respect.
>
>Oh.  `I am not a racist, I even have a black friend.'
>
>>However, periodically in alt.atheism (as well as some other groups),
>>Muslims AS A WHOLE are slandered by people who, it is usually found,
>>know practically nothing about Islam.
>
>I don't believe this is true.  What do you have in mind?
>

	The adherents of Islam who post on the net seem to all be laboring 
under the misconception that none of us know anything about their religion.  
Perhaps they think the net is full of people like the ones they meet on the 
street that think 'muslim=terrorist' and know nothing beyond that.  However, 
the net is not the real world.  Most of us here are or were in college.  We 
are not ignoramuses, which is (I think) why there are a higher percentage of 
atheists in college than in the 'real world'.  We also know a lot about 
religion.

	-Jon
Newsgroups: alt.atheism