HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tp0x+@cs.cmu.edu (Thomas Price)
Subject: Re: Mondo 2000: R. U. Sirius
Keywords: like, totally, y'know
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 01:00:39 GMT

>> >... Our society has been organized in pyramidal power structures for 6000 
>> >years-- it's an ingrained tendency, now...
>> 	Sorry, don't agree, for a number of reasons.  First,  it's true some
>> hierarchical societies existed roughly 4-6 K years ago, but they were 
>> exceptions.  The great mass of societies were egalitarian ones at that point
>> 	I especially disagree with the "ingrained tendency' point.  How does
>> 6000 years (barely a moment in the evolutionary timetable) of stratified 
>> state counteract the million or so years of human existence in egalitarian
>> societies?

Here's how: closely bound up with the stratified state concept (and becoming
completely developed with Plato) is the concept of individuality, which is
a watershed in human cognitive history that we're not about cross back over.
The reason these societies were "egalitarian" is that the concept of 
individuality as we know it didn't exist yet, so of course everyone was more 
or less equal: everyone was more or less equivalent.

That sort of situation is gone for good. It might be possible that all mankind
might someday become post-Buddhists of a sort (I'm thinking of "Universal
Consciousness" rantings I've seen in various places) but to imply that such
pan-individuality would be at all comparable to a pre-individual-concept 
state would be serious confusion.

Personal to Bill Eichman: I'm right this minute reading the archives of
the Corporations-Ate-My-Cat mailing list (I'm a friend of the moderator,
Jon Slenk). You'll see me on that list very soon and I'm eager to 
converse with you.

Tom

******************************************************************************
 Tom Price  |  Obscure Dropout  |  tp0x@cs.cmu.edu  |  Simplicity, simplicity
******************************************************************************
From: pvuyyur@eng.clemson.edu (Vuyyuru Prabhakar)
Subject: Re: what is FAQ?
Reply-To: pvuyyur@eng.clemson.edu
Organization: College of Engineering, Clemson Univ.
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 15:57:04 GMT


Hi!
	I have seen many answers to the question " What is cyberpunk" being
replied by "READ FAQ". I know many of you will wonder if I am fresh from the
amazon jungles. But this is the first I am reading this news group and only
recently started reading news on the net. Your help will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!

Prabhu
From: Jeremiah.Blatz@dartmouth.edu (Jeremiah Blatz)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: Linguistic/conceptual interferance
Date: 24 Aug 92 00:48:55 GMT
 <kc-n4wr.tmaddox@netcom.com>
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH

In article <5980.9208222113@uk.ac.keele.seq1> csv09@seq1.cc.keele.ac.uk
(Barton LJ) writes:
>   Another idea I have been toying with is that language determines to a
>very large extent, if not completely, the concepts we can access.

This is a large part of the novel _1984_. The Big Brother regime
created newspeak, which lumped all "bad" behavior into a few words.
There was no name for any specific crime, so people couldn't think of
(or carry out) any specific crime. Also, newspeak was designed to limit
the amount people had to think in order to speak, and therefore limit
the amount that people thought.

Jeremiah
From: eylerken@milton.u.washington.edu (Ken Eyler)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: Blade Runner Director's Cut
Date: 4 Sep 92 17:58:08 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <Hc5HqB2w165w@cybrspc.UUCP> roy%cybrspc@cs.umn.edu (Roy M. Silvernail) writes:
>tmaddox@netcom.com (Tom Maddox) writes:
>
>>      This same director's cut will apparently be shown at the Grand Lake
>> Theater in Oakland, California, beginning September 11, 1992.
>>
>>      Which might tell us that there's going to be a rash of such showings.
>
>It's rumored to be coming to Minneapolis in September, too.  I'll get
>some details.

Does anyone know if this film will be playing in Washington State any
time soon?

:ken
:eylerken@u.washington.edu
Xref: sparky alt.cyberpunk:3999 alt.suburbs:30 alt.pagan:8408
From: murphy@well.sf.ca.us (Daniel A. Murphy)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk,alt.suburbs,alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Book review: Edge City
Date: 27 Aug 92 10:34:39 GMT
Distribution: alt
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link



I thought Garreau's book was a good descriptive work in that his picture
of the suburbs is pretty accurate.  I don't think it's a very good analysis,
and Garreau's faith that somehow society will sort itself out in the burbs
isn't well supported.  I don't think it's a blind faith; the chapter on
Orange County got skeptical...
-- 
-------------------
Daniel A. Murphy        Net:         murphy@well.sf.ca.us
San Francisco, CA       GEnie:       D.MURPHY11
U.S.A.                  MCI Mail:    377-7947
From: moon!cyberden!dev@well.sf.ca.us
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Television
Date: 1 Sep 92 18:47:35 GMT
Organization: Indescribable Creations

As Ray Bradbury stated in "Farhenheit 451" it is not the medium, but the 
message.  Television is nothing more than a medium of communicating, 
getting rid of T.V. becuase of the trash on it, is as rational of banning 
books becuase of cheap love novels, and radio becuase of Howard Stern. 

__________________________________________________________________________
   |       /         |\
   | H E   \ Y B E R |/ E N       [ moon!cyberden!dev@well.sf.ca.us ]
From: rclarke@ac.dal.ca
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Why freedom of information must be garenteed!!!
Date: 26 Aug 92 03:48:04 GMT
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

Hello,
I was discussing politics with my family this summer and I though an agument
that I thought could sum up why the freedom of information must be garenteed.
I warn you that I have a large solialist slant and so if you're a right wing
facist you probable won't agree with me.

Freedom of information must be garenteed as information controls resorces (human,
natural, etc.) and so if information is alowed to be privitised then resorces
are being privatised.  If information is not free then large corporations will
be able to claim all information as there own and so they will be claiming all
resorces as there own, leaving nothing for the rest of us.  If information is
free then no one will be able to horde resorces and no one will go hungy (insert
your favate human unjustice here <--  ) as they will accses(sp?) to the things
nessary for life.
I belive that cyberpunk is tring to show the would (as well as make a few $$) 
what will happen when capitalism gets out of hand and the upper class elite
will end up ruling (yes, I know, they do all ready).


On another note.
I was talking about hacking (cracking, whatever) this sommer and I have decided.
That there is a great weak spot in the current ecconmic system that may bring
the rich to there neas (sp?).  Computers are mostly used by the rich.  In North
America they are the middle class but on a would scale, even working class
North Americans are rich comparied to the starving people in Somalia (or any other
third would country).  In the future computers will probably be networked into
one large entity (it's nowhere near that stage now) and will be run by the rich.
But the rich will also be dependant on the computers to maintain there postion
of power.  The poor will probably be prety much excluded from the net (except
for a few cyber cowboys).  The net will probably not affect the poor very much
  So if someone were to find a hole in the net then bring it down you would
knock the support out from under the rich and they would be off balence (though
I admit that it wouldn't be for long) and the poor might have a chance to fight
back.  The sutting down of the net would be nessary because if the rich were
still able to use the net they would be able distroy (sp?) any uprising that
occured.  

Any thing you may want to say back to me can be mailed to:
Rclarke@AC.DAL.CA
as long as you don't try to convince me that capitalism is right, I'm set on the
right path and I very stubborn.
Or if you want post so people can hear both sides of the issue.

By the way my editor is real junk so I can't fix any errors (It's also 1 am when
I write this so it may be incorherent)

Rclarke@AC.DAL.CA

Sorry the only cool things I can say are about politics and I think you've had
enough preaching for one day :-)
From: thx1138@angus.mi.org (Scott Abfalter)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Patent Law
Date: 28 Aug 92 16:51:23 GMT
Reply-To: thx1138@angus.mi.org
Organization: North Star BBS


On a tangent to the "copywriting information" discussion, does anyone
have any information about how patent law is going to be (and if is even
_is_ going to be) changed regarding software?

I know that the US patent office was soliciting responses in revamping
it's policies on software production.  Anyone know anything about this
or is it still in too formative of a stage??

THX

--
Scott Abfalter (thx1138@angus.mi.org)
North Star BBS, Royal Oak, MI --------------------------------------------+-
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
From: The Squid Factory (n_k_guy@sfu.ca)
Subject: Blade Runner Director's Cut
Originator: neilg@fraser.sfu.ca
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 03:57:45 GMT

 Blade Runner groupies will be undoubtedly thrilled to learn that,
according to today's Globe and Mail (Toronto-based Canadian
newspaper), the infamous director's cut of Blade Runner will be
showing at the Festival of Festivals, Toronto's modestly-named annual
film festival. This may actually be a reasonable reason to want to go
to Toronto...

 - Neil K. (n_k_guy@sfu.ca)
From: mattb@ctron.com (Matt Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: TV - flawed message and/or medium?
Date: 3 Sep 92 15:51:51 GMT
Reply-To: mattb@olympus.ctron.com (Matt Brown)
Organization: Cabletron Systems INc.

Bill Turkel:
> Now look at a book... the smallest library or bookstore has
>two to three orders of magnitude more channels of information.  You can
>consume as many books in parallel as you can keep track of.  You read *when*
>you want to.  "The many speak to the many".  You can interrupt the flow of
>information to criticize it.

My only quibble here is that stopping your reading to criticize a book is
about as effective as yelling at the TV.  But certainly you can stop, write
down your criticisms, back them up with quotes, and diseminate them yourself.
Roughly the same thing can be done with a VCR, but just try getting on air
access whenever you want.

Unfortunately also, in comparison with TV, you could say that reading is
the few speaking to the few.

Matt
Of course, no question which medium most encourages thoughtful analysis
Especially "America`s Funniest People", a philosophic cornucopia
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
From: kaw4t@fulton.seas.Virginia.EDU (Kent A. Watsen)
Subject: Re: TV - flawed message and/or medium?
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 13:52:16 GMT

In article <1992Sep2.204551.15829@unixg.ubc.ca> turkel@unixg.ubc.ca (Bill Turkel) writes:

[Stuff about tv deleted]

>I realize that videorecorders allow one to compensate for the shortcomings
>of the medium, to an extent.  The fact remains that the number of
>simultaneous channels of information, and the range of levels and content
>are much greater for books than for TV.  To an extent, the *medium* of TV
>is flawed.  The message is, of course, problematic.

However, the bandwidth of information which even a b/w television can
convey per second is phenomenally greater then a book.  In a way, radio
is like television in its time-dependence, but it too can come in an
archived format allowing for user-defined information retrieval.  In the
cost/info. ratio anaylis it is readily verified that any price associated
with a stagnant medium, such as ink on paper, is greater then the price
of dynamic mediums, radio and tv, and therefore not as accessible to the
masses.  Then again, with the rate at which tech appears to exponentially
grow, one could hope that more then just the privileged will be able to
connect to the net, its endless data banks containing everything from
online text, musical compositions, still pictures, and aninmations.
Books, radio and tv are read-only and therefore lack in interaction which
is directly associated with educational growth.  Even if your not looking
for an education, its faster to look up the on-line news then wait for it
to come up on those non-iteractive mediums.

KeNT@virginia.edu
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk,alt.cult-movies,rec.arts.fine,rec.arts.sf-lovers
From: myboy@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Lewis Murtaugh)
Subject: Re: Why freedom of information must be garenteed!!!
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston Illinois.
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 18:33:40 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.115623.7145@ac.dal.ca> rclarke@ac.dal.ca writes:
>> [various good points -- made by an author whose attribution was removed
>>  by "rclarke" -- deleted]

>I was talking about the future that is very near us and descibed in Gibsons
>books.  It seams to me that a futre where access to information would proably
>by privatised.

How can you POSSIBLY believe that the world of Gibson's books is "very near
us?"  This is more evidence for the fact that you are living in a
techno-fantasy world (where good spelling and grammar are frowned upon as being
"conformist").  Gibson's books, great as they are, are FICTION, and not
manifestos for life in the Information Age.

Also, are you reading the same books I am?  Where in Neuromancer does it say
that the net is "privatised"?  When does Case complain about the steep user
fees he has to pay to use the matrix?  If anything, access to information is
becoming LESS commercialized -- witness the growth of the Internet, which is
paid for by public institutions and intended for non-commercial use.

> [psuedo-socialist rants deleted]

To go off on my own tangent -- I really like what there is to date of
"cyberpunk culture".  I like the books, I like some of the music, I like some
of the cyberpunk-influenced style.  I love the way the state of technology
seems to be moving towards a cyberpunk environment, with VR, artificial
intelligence, etc.

BUT, I can't stand the socialist bullshit that passes hereabouts as "cyberpunk
politics."  People seem to be trapped in utopian dreamworlds where "the
people" will work together to make a better, more cyberpunk tomorrow.  The
bottom line is, if cyberpunk doesn't sell, it will have no impact.

For example, look at how expensive VR gear is now.  All the Jason 
whatever-his-name-is'es in the world will not produce a cheap, easily-accesible 
VR system unless there's money in it for some big corporation.  People just 
won't pay $40,000 to play video games, or even to explore the realms of 
self-expression that they promise us VR will open up.  VR will languish in 
obscurity, available only to the elites, until practical, business-style 
applications are developed for it.  It's just like the growth of home
computers themselves -- it will be fed by business dollars.

Wake up and smell the roses.  I'm not some right-wing fascist out to restrict
free information, I just realize that capitalism is here to stay.  People are
too selfish for it to be otherwise.  Thank Mother Nature for that (egalitarian
societies -- ha!).

--
Charles Murtaugh
myboy@casbah.acns.nwu.edu

Don't applaud, just throw money.
From: Jeremiah.Blatz@dartmouth.edu (Jeremiah Blatz)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: RUSerious/Hirearchies, Free info., etc
Date: 31 Aug 92 03:21:38 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH

Ummm,
Is this alt.flame or alt.cyberpunk?
May I point the commi... oops, socialist-bashers and capitalist-bashers
to alt.talk.politics? I'm sure the folks with anti male/female
tendencies could do something more productive, like say, kill each
other, or... better yet, grow up?

Think *SIGNAL*, not noise!

Well, I'll stop my rant before I *really* P|$$ everyonr off,
Jeremiah
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
From: tychay@juliet.caltech.edu (Chay, Terrence Y.)
Subject: Re: Television
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: California Institute of Technology
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 03:24:00 GMT

In article <1DRFqB2w165w@cyberden.uucp>
moon!cyberden!dev@well.sf.ca.us writes...
>As Ray Bradbury stated in "Farhenheit 451" it is not the medium, but the 
>message.  Television is nothing more than a medium of communicating, 
>getting rid of T.V. becuase of the trash on it, is as rational of banning 
>books becuase of cheap love novels, and radio becuase of Howard Stern. 

  while don't disagree, but others might
  the two who wrote _Mediaspeak_ and _Amusing Ourselves to Death_ (i think)
would disagree.  The basic thesis is that the medium defines what messages 
can be said (and tv is a worse medium than books because it doesn't free
our mind).  remember the kid who said, "I like the book- the pictures are
better."  Of course, I don't necessarily agree...
  I think that there was an article about the poorer grammar used by Mac users
vs. IBM users.  The conclusion drawn was that either Mac's attract stupider
people or that Mac's make you stupid (hmm... no wonder my grammar stinks!). 
  And there are the people who hate GUI's...

          -terrychay
                 TYCHAY@CITJULIE.BITNET
                 tychay@juliet.caltech.edu
From: jsuttor@netcom.com (Jeff Suttor)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Ways Women Lead  (no hierarchy in the future!)
Date: 27 Aug 92 01:41:10 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

For those looking for research showing that it is possible to have
an organization based on non-hierarchical methods ...

Author:      ROSENER JB (Reprint).                                       
Address:     UNIV CALIF IRVINE,GRAD SCH MANAGEMENT, IRVINE, CA 92717, USA
               (Reprint).                                                
Title:       WAYS WOMEN LEAD.                                            
Journal:     HARVARD BUSINESS REVIEW, 1990 NOV-DEC, V68 N6:119-125.      
GA Number:   EJ892.                                                      
                                                                         
Language:    English.                                                    
Pub Type:    Article.                                                    
                                                                         
CC Subfile:  SOCS.                                                       
CC Edition:  Social & Behavioral Sciences, V22 N52.                      
                                                                         
Subject Category:  Economics/Business.                                   
Subject Cat Code:  ECOS.                                                 


There is significant research showing that women tend to lead in ways
that are different and more appropriate for a rapidly changing
environment than men.

It's too bad that cyberPunk seems to be 'a dick thing'.  The cyberFuture
will hopefully be less gender defined and more open.

I'm looking forward to a swiss-army-crotch with nanotech 'nads!
From: morpheus@entropy.mcds.com (morpheus)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: Ways Women Lead  (no hierarchy in the future!)
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 92 18:27:53 EDT
Organization: Whoever you vote for, the government still gets elected.

jsuttor@netcom.com (Jeff Suttor) writes:

> It's too bad that cyberPunk seems to be 'a dick thing'.  The cyberFuture
> will hopefully be less gender defined and more open.

Maybe it's 'a dick thing' because of all the jacking in and out?

Seriously...  I'm not too sure why the whole 'computer world' (where the
majority of CP is occuring..) is predominantly male.  And in CP literature, most
of the women seem to be sex objects (catering to the stereotypical sex-starved
computer geek?  I *hope* people realize that that's only a stereotype!)

> I'm looking forward to a swiss-army-crotch with nanotech 'nads!

I'd settle for a pair of sunglasses with a little red glowing time display on
the inside corner.  Possible now, I'm sure... Would be very cool.



--
Big Brother is watching.  So are the Illuminati.  Maybe even your mother.
morpheus@entropy.mcds.com  /\/\/\/  f208.n2606.z1.fidonet.org
From: wce@hogbbs.scol.pa.us (Bill Eichman)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: Mondo 2000: R. U. Sirius
Keywords: like, totally, y'know
Date: 27 Aug 92 19:11:27 GMT
Organization: The Heart of Gold BBS, Lemont PA

osendai@well.sf.ca.us (Mark Pesce) writes:

> Just thought I'd add my 2 cents to the fray.
> 
> According to McLuhan, from "Understanding Media", there hasn't
> been any real hierarchy since the invention of the telegraph
> (1840's).  No center, and no edge.
> 
> Anyone who thinks there is, in any _real_ sense, is just
> dealing with an outdated reality-construct.  Not that those
> can't kill (just bait a police officer for proof).


Can you give examples of the functionality of the reality-construct 
you're proposing?

Does relativistic physics invalidate newtownian physics? I think you may 
be misunderstanding paradigm-shift's effects on humans and human society. 
It makes new behavior possible but doesn't 'dis-create' old behaviors 
until social changes make the old behaviors anti-survival.

I agree with your claim-- but I'm wondering what you see your claim as 
producing in real effects.

Later, Bill
From: roy%cybrspc@cs.umn.edu (Roy M. Silvernail)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: Blade Runner Director's Cut
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 92 20:22:40 CDT
Organization: Villa CyberSpace, Minneapolis, MN

tmaddox@netcom.com (Tom Maddox) writes:

> 	This same director's cut will apparently be shown at the Grand Lake
> Theater in Oakland, California, beginning September 11, 1992.
> 
> 	Which might tell us that there's going to be a rash of such showings.

It's rumored to be coming to Minneapolis in September, too.  I'll get
some details.
--
  From the hallowed halls of Villa CyberSpace, a Waffle Iron (v 1.65)
 s/Roy M. Silvernail/{cybrspc!roy@cs.umn.edu | roy%cybrspc@cs.umn.edu}/g
               "I never could get the hang of Thursdays."
                                              -- Arthur Dent
Organization: Freshman, MCS general, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk,rec.arts.fine,rec.arts.sf-lovers,alt.cult-movies
Date: Fri,  4 Sep 1992 12:15:22 -0400 
From: "Adam K. Rixey" <ar2w+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: H.R. Giger Information - Summary.

	If you're a big Giger fan, you might also want to check out the game
Darkseed.  I know that it's for the IBM-PC, not sure about other
computer types.   The Dark World contains art scanned from various Giger
works, and in hi-resolution it's worth the purchase price for the
graphics quality alone.

	- AkR
	- ar2w@andrew.cmu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
From: ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu (technobabblist, m.d.)
Subject: Re: what is Cyberpunk?
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 01:23:15 GMT

Read the FAQ!!!!  (Wow - never thought I'd say that for this newsgroup..!)

--
 ahawks@nyx.cs.du.edu   FutureCulture E-List: [future-request@nyx.cs.du.edu]
 andy (hawkeye)         new edge, technoculture, cyberpunk, virtual reality,
                        raves, etc. Home of the famous :) FutureCulture FAQ!