From: exukjb@exu.ericsson.se (ken bell)
Newsgroups: sci.philosophy.meta
Subject: Re: Obj/Exist
Date: 13 Oct 92 21:17:32 GMT
Organization: Ericsson Network Systems, Inc.
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              The opinions expressed are strictly those of the
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In article <Bw06wB.HKt@cck.coventry.ac.uk> mei172@cch.coventry.ac.uk (guru) writes:
>From: mei172@cch.coventry.ac.uk (guru)
>Subject: Re: Obj/Exist
>Date: 12 Oct 92 10:09:46 GMT

>In article <1992Oct1.173934.25750@ariel.ec.usf.edu> mccolm@darwin.math.usf.edu. (Gregory McColm) writes:
>>Is "exist" really a definable verb?  Does the number 2 
>>exist?  How about transfinite numbers?  This issue does 
>>not seem to be as easily resolved as some Objectivists 
>>seem to think ...

>guru sez:
>        "exist" is like "reality": both are totally subjective terms, a result
>        obtained from both quantum uncertainty and special relativity.


>        1: Special Relativity

>        Einstein showed that there is no such thing as "Absolute Time" ie
>        we all have our own personal spatial reference frame in the four-
>        dimensional continuum, and the different velocities and gravitational
>        fields to which your frame has been subjected will determine the
>        values of such phenomena as time.

>        2: Quantum Uncertainty

>        Heisenberg showed that we cannot know the position and velocity of
>        any body to the same accuracy, ie there is always some uncertainty
>        in the world-sheet of that body.

>        Corollary:

>        Combining the above two results shows that two people who are present
>        at the same event will always disagree about what happened, due to
>        the combined effects of working from different time-frames and being
>        unable to agree upon the position of the bodies involved in that
>        event.


>        From the above we can conclude that reality is a subjective affair,
>        since no two people can agree upon the events constituting reality.
>        Also existence is subjective since no two people can prove that they
>        were where they say they were, nor can they prove that any body is
>        in any place.


>        This is just my way of looking at things: all discussion welcomed.
>-- 
>      /~~~) /   / /~~~) /   /  
>     (___/ (___/ /     (___/   These mind-expanding drugs have given me so much
>        /                      imagination, I'm hallucinating grey vividly....
>   (___/ mei172@cch.cov.ac.uk                       Victor Lewis-Smith

---> Kenny:
I would like to know how you found this out about "reality" if reality is 
totally subjective? Scientific experiments are part of reality--so, 
presumably, are theories like Heisenberg's. So how, without supposing that
these objectively exist outside your own mind can you use the results of 
them to argue for the total subjective nature of reality, without begging
the question?

Also, is this just your own subjective view, or are you proposing it as a 
matter for objective belief?  [I'm reminded here of a criticism that was 
made of Kant's theory of the Ding en Sich. Where does Kant get off telling 
us all those weird things about the ding en sich if its beyond all human 
knowledge and experience? If it's totally unknowable, how do you know it 
has the property of being unknowable? Makes you go "Uhmm" doesn't it?]

Now, take the statement "Reality is subjective". I will assume that 
'subjective' means roughtly "being not about extra-mental reality but being 
solely about some person's mind".  The question is, is this statement itself 
intended as as a claim about reality, or isn't it?  If it is, then it is 
itself totally subjective.  That is, it only tells us a fact about you and 
your mental contents; it is, in short, an autobiographical claim.  Very 
well, I accept it as such; I have no reason to think you're lying to us. 

If not, well, what happens then? Then I'm not sure what you mean.

I'm baaaaack! And I'm not a Randian Objectivist.
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