HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Private heralds
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 23:53:16 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!

At Eastern Crown tourney, we have a traditional ceremony involved personal
heralds.  Once we reach the quarter finals, each remaining fighter chooses
(or is assigned) a personal herald, who will announce for him for the rest
of the tournament.  The heralds announce their patrons into the lists
(often at amusing length), announce their victories, and follow them
through the remaining rounds if they are victorious.  The herald for the
eventual winner has the additional duty of escorting the new consort onto
the field and introducing her to the populace.  Fighters who have a
household herald usually opt to have him take these duties; those who do
not are served by the most senior heralds present.  In at least two cases,
this service has led to long-term household positions.

I've been to and heard of many tournaments at which fighters were
encouraged to hire heralds to announce them.  At the first Tournament of
the Lions in An Tir, Baron Korwyn provided one herald to announce each
fighter into the lists with the minimum flair; heralds and fighters were
encouraged to provide more pomp as they wished.  At Pennsic, there is a
long tradition of heralds-for-hire.  We have ask them to avoid the use of
"Oyez!" when working on personal business, but only because that word is
widely recognized out here as the introduction for official announcements.  

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
From: ddfr@quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Mongol Recurve Bows
Date: 21 Jan 93 02:30:09 GMT
Reply-To: ddfr@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago


Henry Troup asks about mongol bows. I do not know if I have ever seen
a bow that was mongol in the narrow sense--i.e. made by mongols. I
have seen, drawn, and in one case shot traditional wood/horn/sinew
recurves--mostly antiques, but in one case a modern reconstruction.
When the bow is strung but not drawn the string touches the limb at a
point eight inches or so from the tip of the bow; there is often, but
I think not always, a bridge at that point which the string rests
against. The end portion of the bow (siyah) is, I believe, relatively
rigid, so as the bow is drawn the siyah swings out and the lever arm
exerted by the string and thus the torque imposed on the limbs by a
given tension increases, which I assume is intended to flatten out
the force curve.

I am intrigued by Henry defining "recurve" in this way; I had thought
the definition was a bow that bent the opposite way unstrung than
strung. In any case, I believe traditional wood/horn/sinew bows are
recurves in both senses.

David/Cariadoc
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes)
Subject: Re: Tadhg's Preferred Geographic Area 
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 16:24:30 GMT

In article <728115492.F00001@ocitor.fidonet> Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim) writes:
> 
> I'm trying to understand medieval people. One path to such understanding
> is experiencing what they experienced, and then extrapolating from that to
> an entire lifetime. Being myopic is something that people in period had to
> cope with; and they couldn't put the glasses back on when the weekend was
> over. My eyes (before the surgery) were -4.25 myopia + .75 astigmatism in
> the left and -5.75 myopia + 1.75 astigmatism in the right. I can't
> remember a time that I didn't wear glasses. I take them off and try to
> cope. One of the reasons for my choice of persona is that the religious
> life would have been one of the few "careers" open to a person with my
> lack of visual acuity.
>

Being similarly myopic, I wonder how myopic I would have been if I had
used my distance vision more and my near vision less. Appearantly
reading and staring at computer screens play hob with the eyesight
because you don't look up or away from the text very often and the eyes
barely move.
	Had I been a real medieval person, as opposed to a modern
pretending to be a medieval person on weekends, I wonder how my body
might have been different (ignoring the fact that I could well be dead
due to any number of childhood diseases and the Plague). I am willing to
bet that had I spent my youth riding, hunting and training for war (as
opposed to sitting, reading, and training for school) my eyesight would
be a whole lot better than it is (not perfect, but better). 
	Had I been a peasant, I don't think that being severely
nearsighted would be a problem. Who cares if the ox, plow and field look
blurry, as long as you can plow a reaonably straight line and do the
neccessary grunt work. However, had I been a peasant. I would have
jumped at the chance to be a monk. Indoor work, no heavy lifting and
(generally) 3 square meals a day. :)

	Lothar \|/
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Sword and spear
From: rwilley@eagle.wesleyan.edu (Hrothgar)
Date: 24 Jan 93 18:30:59 EST
Organization: Wesleyan University

Among the other recent suggestions about "reforming" fighting was one
comment that no weapons styles that could not be documented to pre-1450
Western Europe be allowed.  One of the proposed styles to be banned was
spear and sword.  This was a weapon`s style which was extremely popular
with the Norse.  A short slashing sword was commonly used in conjunction
with the Norse halberd (which is apparently a wide bladed spear).  It 
believe that there is a reference in Grettir`s Saga.  I`ll try to track it
down.

In any case, the point I'm trying to make is that banning weapon`s styles
as being unperiod is going to be more than a little difficult.  Give a few
days, I can probably document just about any form you want using some 
(possible obscure) reference.  If you want to crack down on inauthenticity,
there are a lot better places to start than some of your proposals.
For example, those $%^&$&* plastic shields from the bridge battle last Pennsic.
They were so flexible, they were impossible to hook.  

On the plus side, the worst offenses which I have seen seem to be among the
newest fighters.  In general, the longer some one stays with things, the better
their armor and equipment tends to look.  The cultural assimilation process
does seem to work fairly well still.

			hrothgar
From: carrot@bear.stonemarche.org (Little red-headed girl)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Learning Welsh
Date: 24 Jan 93 18:41:12 GMT

Good gentles, I would appreciate being pointed to a good source for
learning Welsh. I would prefer 12th century but I would try modern.

		Ceridwen
--
+--------------------------+----------------------------------------------+
|	carrot		   |	carrot@bear.stonemarche.org               |
+--------------------------+----------------------------------------------+ 
|   "Feel what might be. See what I see. Again and again and again and    |
| again say you don't. You say you don't, but you will.                   |
|   "How can you be so near and not see?" -"If You Intend"-10,000 Maniacs |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: nusbache@epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Awarding Awards or Ooh, Ah, Oh
Date: 26 Jan 93 18:32:14 GMT
Article-I.D.: epas.1993Jan26.183214.1553
Organization: University of Toronto - Office of the Provost

In article <1993Jan25.214942.4644@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu> greg@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Hossein Ali Qomi (mka Gregory F. Rose)) writes:

G. de Shipbrooke:
>>In that case, is the awarding of arms (and kingdom service awards, &c.)
>>in full court with all the populace assembled, *really* a mediaeval
>>practice?

Hossein A. de Q:
>I fear, my lord, that it is you who are fixated on an SCA invention.  Court
>is where the king is.  I mean that literally.  The _palatium_ was wherever
>the king was doing business.  All sealed and patent writs were done in
>Court because Court was where the king's business was done.

A couple of amendments:

When King Edward II went on his Stirling campaign of 1314 (the
campaign which ended with that little set-to near Bannok Burn Toune),
he left a fully functional chancery with the Archbishop of Canterbury
in charge at his staging base in England.  Writs continued to be
issued thence under the Great Seal, while King Edward had his privy
seal with him in his baggage train.  When the Scots took the baggage
train, they took the seal.  Subsequent privy seal documents were
issued under the privy seal of the queen, Isabella the She-Wolf.

The sort of court to which Godfrey refers sounds remarkably like a
parliament, though the "populace" in the form of the Commons, were not
summoned to parliament in all countries nor at all times.  The index
of ennoblement for early English peerages used by Cokayne is summons
to parliament, because there was no other formal ennoblement recorded,
and at that same stage there were none but noblemen summoned to parliament.

In addition to there not having been "courts" in the SCA sense, the
"thrones" by which SCA kingdoms set so much store were used for
coronations and that's about it.  The "throne" of France wasn't even
in the Ile de France most of the time!

Aryk Nusbacher
From: doconnor@sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Psuedo-illegal targets (was Re: Illegal targets (was period fighting styles))
Date: 27 Jan 93 21:37:15 GMT
	<9301211535.AA33107@hick.asd.contel.com>
	<DOCONNOR.93Jan22055949@potato.sedona.intel.com>
	<zebee.728001590@wattle.itd.adelaide.edu.au>
Organization: Intel i960(tm) Architecture
NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.intel.com
In-reply-to: zebee@wattle.itd.adelaide.edu.au's message of 25 Jan 93 22:39:50 GMT


zebee@wattle.itd.adelaide.edu.au (Zebee Johnstone) writes:
] doconnor@sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor) writes:
]
] Should cost be cited as a reason to have poor or glaringly inauthentic
] armour?  I know that this has been debated ad nauseum, with no solution
] in sight, but put me in the "it's more likely laziness than poverty" camp.

Altho some may not believe it, and I often fail, I do _try_ to
a more charitable attitude than this to those in plastic and carpet.

] Dennis also mentions that he doesn;t think it is possible to throw a
] good wrap with a basket hilt that has "full coverage".  I'm curious as
] to what this means.  THat using a basket hilt alone will not give the
] coverage?  That it is not possible to throw a wrap with any kind of
] protection that fulfills the rules?

There's a gap in my basket hilts a blow could concievably (if improbably)
get thru. Wearing my steel demi-gauntlets closes this gap, but ( perhaps
because of my lack of skill ) I can't throw a good clean wrap with
the demi-gauntlet on.

I wear it in war anyway : I'm on the wall, and it's not so important
that I kill people as it is that I don't die myself. Killing people
is the polearms job. So I wear my gemi-gauntlet for the marginal
amount of extra safety it gives me.

My armour covers almost every part of me that can get hit in steel,
except my buttocks which are at least well padded (both by nature
and by device). I've got a high safety standard for myself. My
wife's armour will do the same, tho made of the much-maligned
6061-T6 aluminum, because of some physical limitations she has.
So my earing the demi-gauntlet under the basket hilt is just
symptomatic of my own personal approach to safety.

Others I know fight with much less protection. Whatever works for them,
just so long as I'm not afraid to hit them for fear of injurying them.
I wouldn't presume to tell my Baron, for example, who is a Master
at Arms and Viscount, that elbows cops alone aren't enough.
--
Dennis O'Connor			doconnor@sedona.intel.com
From: mjc+@cs.cmu.edu (Monica Cellio)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Who's Next?
Date: 27 Jan 93 16:45:54 GMT
Article-I.D.: NL.mjc.728153154
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei) writes:
>As for the East Kingdom, the laws strongly imply that the two positions
>are separate, and specifically allows small groups to combine them, but
>it never says that they must be held by separate people in
>Baronies/Provinces.

For small groups, the EK Seneschal's policies require that the following
positions be filled: seneschal, herald, and either marshal or A&S officer.
(This is in keeping with Corpora.)  Note that exchequer is not on this list;
small groups aren't even required to fill the office.  

Kingdom law says: "If a Canton, Shire, or College does not have a separate 
Exchequer, the Seneschal of the branch is responsible for all the exchequer 
duties."  It says nothing further on the subject.  (It does require larger
groups to have an exchequer, but imposes no restrictions.)

Policy goes on to say, on the subject of the smaller groups: "You should 
avoid doubling up on offices whenever possible, although Kingdom Law 
requires you to be responsible for the exchecquer's [sic] and chatelaine's 
duties should the offices become vacant".  

Baronies are required to have an exchequer.  Policy says "...at this size of
branch, doubling should not be necessary".  It does not say doubling is
forbidden.

Ellisif
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: Guy Wells <guyw@babbage.uswest.com>
Subject: West Kingdom's Land Fund, Kingdom Trust, Inc.
Summary: Query on Incorporation
Originator: guyw@babbage
Reply-To: Guy Wells <guyw@babbage.uswest.com>
Organization: U S WEST Advanced Technologies
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 20:11:50 GMT

Hal Ravn said:
>The Board approved the separate incorporation of the West Kingdom Land
>Fund as Kingdom Trust, Inc.  This move provides two advantages--1.  it
>means that each organization is protected from legal actions taken
>against the other, and 2.  The KTI board can move quickly enough to
>actually acquire land.

The curious would like to know a few things on the above:

What legal actions was the board or the West worried about? Was it
mostly insurance concerns? With a seperate incorporation, how can
Kingdom Trust take advantage of any non-profit rules that are used by
the SCA, Inc? Does an inter-corporation agreement exist that bind both
parties?

When acquiring land, how will KTI represent itself to state and local
government, especially with regards to property tax liabilities?

How did the transfer of funds occur? Isn't that a huge tax liability?
What are California laws like on this question?

KTI probably has either a board or a president and trustee group. Is
there any cross pollenization between KTI and SCA, Inc, i.e. one
director on both corporations' "boards?"

This seems like it could go either way as problems occur. With the
Barony of Caerthe active in their Land fund work, the experiment in the
West is of importance and knowing the reasons for the direction taken
could be of great benefit.

The biggest question, thus, is why the West and the Board chose this
direction? 

>As the KTI has been looking at a parcel for some months, this opens
>the possibility that the West Kingdom may have an owned site in the
>near future--after nearly 20 years of fundraising (though about half
>of the funds have been raised in the last 5 years).  The experiment
>will be interesting, to say the least.

May we not live in TOO interesting times.

Jalut

-- 
--
Guy M. Wells <guyw@uswest.com>  Disclaimer: My opinions are mine, no
U S WEST Advanced Technologies  one elses, and certainly not USWEST's!
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: TALLAN@flis.utoronto.ca (David Tallan)
Subject: Re: recreating period skills
Organization: The Internet
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 12:28:16 GMT

In SCA Digest V6 #41 Simon says
> Graydon (I think) and some others have suggested looking at the SCA as
> "experimental archeology" --- re-creating skills and practices of the
> middle ages, and not worrying so much about mindsets, etc.  I like this
> idea a lot, and it comes close to what I've been doing all along, and what
> I think a lot of people do.  Lots of things are "skills and practices",
> including conversation and table manners!  There is still room for trying
> to understand how people thought, in order to shed light on why and how
> they did what they did.  But I can do my best to sound and act like a
> Renaissance Spaniard, and you can do your best to sound like a pre-Norman
> Scot, and we can both have a good time doing "experimental Archeology"!

If you "can do your best to sound and act like a Renaissance Spaniard"
without "worrying...about mindsets", you're a better man than I, Simon

David Tallan: who finds it much easier to talk and act like Thomas
              Grozier when he has some idea of his values, beliefs,
              and priorities
David Tallan (tallan@flis.utoronto.ca)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ross@chem.queensu.ca (Ross Dickson)
Subject: Re: Actually, it's "Triskaidekaphobia"
Summary: joke
Keywords: foolishness
Organization: Dept. of Chemistry, Queen's University
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 02:22:09 GMT

In article <1993Jan22.223819.1349@henson.cc.wwu.edu> n9040513@henson.cc.wwu.edu (Andrea Aldridge) writes:
>...I think.

Whaddya mean, "triskaidekaphobia"?  They said "triskadigiphobia", they
meant "triskadigiphobia"!  Allow me to quote from the "Longer Oxford
Non-English Dictionary":
  
   triskadigiphobia (n.) [<Gk "triskei" thirteen + "digita" finger + "phobos"
      fear]  Irrational fear of having thirteen fingers.

So there...
 
:-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)
 
Angus Boghadair mac Iain mac Lachlainn mac Donnchaidh Mac-an-Toiseach
from Greyfells in Ealdormere, and...
 
Ross Dickson, from Kingston in Ontario, who has to get all of this sort
of silliness out of his system by his Ph.D. defense on Tuesday morning,
because the last time his committee saw him they thought he wasn't treating
the venerable institutions of academe with sufficient gravity and respect.
You see, I brought a can of Coke to my comprehensive instead of a coffee
cup...
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: sherman@trln.lib.unc.EDU ("Dennis R. Sherman")
Subject: Made in Atlantia
Organization: The Internet
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 20:39:44 GMT

Greetings to the Rialto from Robyyan.

All you Latin speakers out there, how would I say "Made in Atlantia" 
if I wanted to label something?  I know I could say "Robyyan me 
fecit", but that's "Made by Robyyan" (or 'robyyan made me') which 
isn't exactly what I want.

Email will take less bandwidth on the Rialto, I promise to post a 
summary in a few days.

*--------------------------------------------------------------------*
* Robyyan Torr d'Elandris  Kapellenberg, Windmaster's Hill  Atlantia *
*--------------------------------------------------------------------*
* Dennis R. Sherman  	         Triangle Research Libraries Network *
* dennis_sherman@unc.edu       Univ. of North Carolina - Chapel Hill *
*--------------------------------------------------------------------*
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: greg@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Hossein Ali Qomi (mka Gregory F. Rose))
Subject: Re: Persona question
Organization: The Rialto
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 06:49:29 GMT

The placename Echternach jostled an old memory and so I checked.  It was
settled by the mid-eighth century.  One of the few extant charters of
Carloman, Charlemagne's brother, granted land to a monastery in Echternach
in support of missionary work among the Saxons.  It can be found as document
no. 48 in the first volume of the _Diplomata Karolinorum_ of the Monumenta
Germaniae Historica series (Hanover, 1906).

Hossein/Greg
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: icelandic wedding
From: nemesis <JLF129@psuvm.psu.edu>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 21:21:29 EST
Organization: Penn State University

In article <VADER.93Jan25140828@meryl.csd.uu.se>, vader@meryl.csd.uu.se (]ke
Eldberg) says:

>Greetings from William de Corbie!

>Varg Nagr asks for assistance in designing an Icelandic wedding for
>two 10th century personas. The primary question is: what religion?
>In the 900's, Iceland had both Christians and Pagans. The ceremonies
>are a bit different -- though perhaps not quite as different as one
>would think.
>I may be able to dig up some hints, if you tell me the context.

>William

This is a good point, I had forgotten that both religions still existed
at this time.   I think perhaps we would be using the Christian ceremony
although it would be interesting to find out about both of them, to
see where the differences are.

Many thanks for any help

Signy inn heppna
From: n9110536@henson.cc.wwu.edu (W. Douglas West)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: period fighting styles
Date: 22 Jan 93 21:14:28 GMT
Article-I.D.: henson.1993Jan22.211428.24449
Organization: Western Washington University
 
  Sorry, but my point on being hit in the knee with a mace is the momentum,

not the weight.  The mass of a mace is centralized in the head, which puts
the momentum at the head (or very close to it), which then impacts the knee.
A sword, even one that weighs the same, will have its center of mass much
further down the blade, giving less momentum into the knee.  Now if you want
to discuss whether or not a fighter can put the same speed into a mace vs. a
sword...
 
  I have also often thought of grappling as an interesting addition to our
fighting styles.  But I am afraid that it would be viewed as un-Chivalric.
Now if you wanted to try it on a war-field sometime, let me know!  Of course
I am not saying that it is allowable to be un-Chivalric on the war-field,
but what is viewed as Chivalric vs. un-Chivalric is a little different from
the tourney field.
 
  On the subject of two weapon fighting, I was reading the Compleat Anachronist
copy on Vikings and the one on Early Scandinavians when I came across some
translations of sagas which stated that in the many cases a viking would use
a spear in his left hand while holding a sword in his right.  Then when the
spear eventually got stuck in something (!!), he could continue fighting by
using his sword.  There were even some translations which stated that they
would sometimes use both at the same time.  So here is at least one reference
to two-weapon combination fighting.
 
(St.) George Slade the Dragoon
who has no sig, as the person I am changes from day to day and one sig
just doesn't always fit.
From: dickeney@access.digex.com (Dick Eney)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Bee yay ay-zoo, Monte Pythonem
Date: 26 Jan 1993 21:56:50 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

Bee yay ay-zoo dom-ee-nay, dough-na ay ees requi-em is a pretty
good "ear transcription" of an actual Church-Latin chant:

Beatae Jesu dominae, dona (etes?) requiem

Blessed Lord Jesus, give (us?) peace(ful rest)