From: tanaka@til.til.com (Yokichi Tanaka)
Subject: Re: Re: Actually
Organization: Togai InfraLogic, Inc.
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 21:44:28 GMT

In article <1992Oct15.084412.16602@newsroom.utas.edu.au>,  (Hajime Yoji) writes:
|> In article <1besrnINNfmg@agate.berkeley.edu>, jcliu@four-lab4.Berkeley.EDU (James C. Liu) writes:
|> 
|> 
|> > It seems that Hajime-san doesn't realize that if Japan had more
|> > minorities, they too would have much more unequal distribution of
|> > wealth.
|> 
|> Yeah, i agree with that. But if Japan has more minorities,
|> we would be more tolorent to minoritie since
|> it become necessary to accomodate to such minorites.

Let's bet.  I bet it would be the exact opposite.

|> When you make some hipothesis situation, you
|> can't use such assumption as 'other things remain unchanged'
|> cos any change affect other factors of 
|> society and such effect is often unpredictable.

Other things don't remain unchanged.  What usually happens
when there is an influx of minorities is that racism *increases*
(short term).  That's the natural tendency.  The exact opposite
of what you think will happen is going to happen.  Today a native
Japanese and a foreigner seldom compete for the same job or for
the same business.  Imagine what would happen if they had to.

|> > (Example:  look at all the poor middle eastern persons
|> > inYoyogi park in Tokyo).
|> 
|> I never been to Yoyogi.  I am a country boy from Saga-ken
|> of Kyushu Island.

I don't think where you are from is relevant, except that you are
less exposed to the bad treatment of minorities (especially middle-
eastern minorities) in Japan.  There is a lot of racism against
middle-easterners in Japan.  Much of it is to blame for their
horrible economic condition.  Many of them when interviewed on
American TV say they despise Japan and the Japanese.  All they
want to do is save some yen and move back home.

|> If American system provides the most equal opportunity in
|> the world, I just can't figure out why there are
|> such difference of rich and poor in America.  If there is
|> equal opportunity, I think there sould be acceptable
|> level of equal wealth distribution too.

You can not have both "equality" and "freedom" totally.  Equal
opportunity means "freedom".  The more a country leans towards
freedom (ie capitalism), wider the gap between the rich and the
poor.  The more a country leans towards equality (ie socialism),
narrower the economic gap, but less freedom.  Equal opportunity
and equal wealth distribution are not the same thing, in fact,
quite the contrary.

|> > This is an easy question to answer.
|> > Poverty in itself, will always be better than racism.
|> >
|> 
|> You probably think that the reason people in slum are poor
|> is because they don't work hard.

Mr. Liu didn't say that.  He said that he would rather chose
poverty than live in a racist society.  And I'm sure he wouldn't
intend to stay there (in poverty).

|> Yeah, it is true they are often lazy but it is because they
|> are born in environment where
|> 'working hard' or 'going to uni' aren't encouraged. Born in
|> such environment are as unfair as not born as a 
|> white.

I think you mean "not born as a white in a racist society".
In which case I disagree with you.  Also you are implying that
all poor individuals do not make their own decisions.  The 
environment makes it for them.  Certainly not true.

|> Think of yourself. How much support have you obtained
|> from people around you while you
|> went through so called 'transitory state'. You probably worked
|> hard but your hard-woking nature didn't come
|> from yourself. It is your parents who brought you up well.

You are not Mr. Liu.  How do you know how he was brought up?
Is it relevant?  If he had his parents' support, good for him.

|> By saying ' Poverty is an economic state which can be overcome
|> by one's self ', do you mean that if someone,
|> is poor(so poor that this person even can't feed himself) the
|> reason he is poor is completely his fault.

It's not completely his fault.  That's not what Mr. Liu said.
Poverty to some extent can be overcome by an individual.  It
is much harder to overcome racism which are entrenched in 
a society.

|> So you can just say to him. "You lazy buggar".

No.  I don't know how you can come to this conclusion from
Mr. Liu's post.

I think you've really missed Mr. Liu's points which I think
were excellent and on the money.

PS.  Please use <CR> key to separate your lines.

-- 
Yoke (Yokichi) Tanaka      Togai InfraLogic, Inc.    "fuzzy"
tanaka@til.com             Irvine, California, USA
uunet!til!tanaka           714-975-8522
In case you're wondering ... I am male.
"The more you drive, the less intelligent you are."