HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Bilbo/Tonto (was Re: Balrogs, Nazgul, and Sauron)
Date: 15 Dec 92 18:57:20 GMT
Organization: Department of Industrial Engineering

Thus spake jadair@cs.utexas.edu (John S. Adair):

>I wasn't trying to start a constructive debate, I was making a _joke_.

>He said "lone Ranger", I said "Tonto"...

>On the old TV show (probably also comics, etc.) _The Lone Ranger_
>Tonto was the Lone Ranger's native American ('Indian') sidekick. I didn't
>realize that not everyone would know the reference.

To drive the joke into the ground some more, Tonto used to refer to TLR as
"Kimosabe" (spelling irrelevant), which was supposed to mean "faithful friend"
in some Native American language.  In LOTR, Meriadoc is christened "Holdwine
of the Mark".  Holdwine means "fast (faithful) friend".  So Tolkien goofed;
it looks like Merry should have been Strider's sidekick.

:-)



-- 
       David Tate        |"Out of the dugout endlessly swinging,
 dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu | Out of the manager's throat, the sound fundamentals,
 Prof. of Story Problems | Out of the six-month season..."            
 Member ORSA, TIMS, SABR | 	Walt "Lefty" Whitman
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld)
Subject: Re: Tolkien a Racist?
Reply-To: er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld)
Organization: Bell Communications Research (Bellcore)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 16:16:30 GMT

In article <7175@sersun1.essex.ac.uk>, leitm@solb1.essex.ac.uk (Leith M F) writes:
|> be a clear cut distinction between "black" in its negative, "evil" sense 
|> i.e bad prospects, bad events and "black" in its racial sense.  The two are
|> obviously *very* different things, and need to be realised as such.  I think
|> that Tolkien was aware of this clear cut distinction, and was not making
|> statements of racial superiority between white people and black people.

Very good point.  It should also be noted that many, if not most of Tolkien's
good characters had black *hair*.  And clearly that is not meant to count as
a negative.  Similarly, black or white skin color is equally meaningless.
-- 
Elie Rosenfeld      | "I am what I am, Leila -- and if there are self-made
Bellcore            |  purgatories, then we all must live in them.
Piscataway, N.J.    |  Mine is no worse than someone else's."
(908) 699-8800      |                     - Spock, "This Side of Paradise"
From: det@phlan.sw.stratus.com (David Toland)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Question: LOTR Wizards
Date: 15 Dec 1992 13:43:56 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Software Engineering
NNTP-Posting-Host: phlan.sw.stratus.com

In article <BzAAIH.685@unix.amherst.edu> jdliss@unix.amherst.edu (Jeff Liss) writes:
>Maybe someone can enlighten me about what the council of wizards'
>structure is really like.  Obviously the White is #1 and the Grey
>#2 ... but what about Radagast the Red?  How is all that determined?
>I don't know if it's every explained.  Also, what does Gandalf mean
>when he declares himself to the Balrog as "a servant of the Secret
>Fire"?

Radagast was the Brown, not the Red.  I don't know anything about the
remaining wizards (was it 5 wizards in all, or 7?  I've forgotten).
That white is associated with the leadership of the Council seems
clear (*please* don't ask whether that is racist, that thread already
seems interminable), but other than that I don't know if there really
was a ranking.  Gandalf seemed to treat Radagast as an equal.

When Gandalf declared "I am a servant of the secret fire, wielder of the
Flame of Anor", I believe he was referring to the third elven ring, the
Ring of Fire, which Cirdan the Far-seeing had entrusted to him.  Galadriel
and Elrond bore the other two rings.

-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
All opinions are MINE MINE MINE, and not necessarily anyone else's.
det@phlan.sw.stratus.com   |  "Laddie, you'll be needin' something to wash
                           |  that doon with."
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: ketil@ii.uib.no (Ketil M. Malde)
Subject: Re: Please, Sir, I want some more.
Reply-To: ketil@ii.uib.no
Organization: student of numerical analysis at the University of Bergen, Norway
	<ROLAND.92Dec10085957@helicon.sics.se>
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 15:58:56 GMT

>>>>> On Thu, 10 Dec 1992 07:59:57 GMT, roland@sics.se (Roland Karlsson) said:


	Roland> I have two favourite fantasy books.  First, of course,
	Roland> Tolkiens LOTR.  But the second best, I think, is David
	Roland> Eddings Belgeriad and Malloreon suites (10 books).
	Roland> Both Tolkien and Eddings create interesting and
		[...]

Well, I've read Eddings' wassitcalled, Elenium (Diamond Throne, Ryby
Knight, and Sapphire Rose) and I quite like it.  He writes well, and
the story isn't too bad at all.  He has plenty of interesting
characters, except for one thing: The Main character.

I mean, he totally falls into the trap of making him too much of an
all powerful stereotype, totally contrary to the hobbits that the
tolkien works revolve and evolve around.  No, eddings' main character
is the greatest swordsman in the world, adept with magic, of course,
cuts down the enemies by the scores in a totally unrealistic manner.
<Sigh> He manipulates everybody, including, but not limited to, various
royalty, and always lands on his feet.  In short, I don't think he has
a single fault.  Don't you hate it?  I do.

Apart from this, Eddings have some of the best things about trolls
I've read (though it wasn't too much), I just love Ghwerig, and
ulath's description of a troll's virtues.

While we're on the subject, I also read a book edited by Marion 2
Bradley, and *that* was something!  A lot of short stories with a few
things in common:

	1 I think *every*one* of the short stories suffered from the
	  invincible hero problem, introducing an all powerful hero
	  that the world revolves around

	2 The hero was *always* a woman, usually a swordswoman, and
	  ususally lesbian as well. the bad-guys were invariably men,
	  usually the contrary was also true.

	3 Most of the stories were filled to the brim with heavy-duty
	  magical objects, dragons etc etc and looked like a parody of
	  a typical AD&D game.

The book is called 'spells of wonder', enjoy! :-) 

--
 = Ketil Malde                     In real life:  ketil@ii.uib.no =
 = Nuke the whales!                    Honk if you love unicorns! =
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: erikt@sci.kun.nl (Erik van de Tier)
Subject: List of books
Organization: University of Nijmegen, The Netherlands
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 11:29:38 GMT

Can somebody give me a complete list of all published work of J.R.R Tolkien
(about Middle Earth). And ofcourse I'm interested in where I can get them (if 
they are still for sale). I've already got the following books:
  *Lord of the Ring (Dutch version)
  *Silmarillion (Dutch version)
  *Book of lost tales part 1 (part 2 already on it's way) (English version)
  *tolkien bestiarium (not written by any Tolkien)

I know (and read some) about the existance of the following books, so I only 
want to know where/how I can get them (price?):
  *Unfinished tales
  *Bilbo's last song
  *The shaping off middle earth:the Quenta, the Ambarkanta and ...
  *The lost road and other writings
  *The lays of beleriand
  *The adventures of Tom Bombadil
  *Tolkien lexicon

please help me!

_____________________________________________________________________________
Erik van der Tier (Erikt@sci.kun.nl)

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: Michael.Norrish@comp.vuw.ac.nz (Michael Norrish)
Subject: Re: Tolkien a Racist?
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, Victoria Uni. of Wellington, NZ.
	<Bz4v2s.80K@comp.vuw.ac.nz> <1992Dec14.170737.24030@rchland.ibm.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 03:28:16 GMT

>>>>> On Mon, 14 Dec 1992 17:07:37 GMT, seurer@rchland.vnet.ibm.com
>>>>> (Bill Seurer) said:

Bill> In article <Bz4v2s.80K@comp.vuw.ac.nz>,
Bill> Michael.Norrish@comp.vuw.ac.nz (Michael Norrish) writes:

|> Leaving that to the side, there is still the issue of Tolkien's
|> ranking of his human races. Clearly the Elves are at the top of the
|> heap. The closer it is to the Valar, the better or more superior the
|> race. However, as James has pointed out, those races closer to the
|> divine are characterised as 'blond, blue-eyed' wonders, while the
|> unfortunate Easterlings and Southrons are dark and swarthy. In all
|> honesty, I think we have in these chacracterisations some evidence of
|> an underlying racism in Tolkien's worldview. 

Bill> While I won't dispute much of your post, part of this paragraph
Bill> is flatly wrong.  It is a common misconception that elves are
Bill> blond and blue eyed.  Yet blondness was very rare among elves.
Bill> The family in which Galadriel falls was the only one that had
Bill> blond hair.

Bill> Check out the descriptions of the elves.  I did one time and it
Bill> was specifically mentioned that blond hair was unusual (in the
Bill> Silmarillion I believe).  If I remember I will dig out the
Bill> references tonight.

Blech. OK, I'm sorry I ever wrote those three words, even if I did put
them in quote marks, (the standard "I'm-not-totally-sure-about-this-
but-I-want-to-say-it-anyway" manoeuvre :-) However, I still think it
is true that Elves and the others who are on, or near the top of,
Tolkien's racial hierarchy _are_ universally described as fair, or
basically just as you might describe an archetypal north-European.

Certainly it is true that the Southrons are contrasted
with the northern races by their dark and swarthy complexions, (and
also by the fact that they, while being proud and brave, are still
servants of Sauron and slightly barbaric).

Regretting carelessnesses,
Michael.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: paul@pj.tmc.edu (Thorongil)
Subject: Where do orcs go upon dying?
Organization: Mississippi State University ERC
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 16:07:34 GMT

Another question brought up on the List that I'm posting here to see
what you think.

If when elves die they go to the halls of Mandos, and orcs are nothing
more than captured elves corrupted by Melkor, then do orcs have souls?
If so, then upon death do they go to the halls of Mandos?

Thorongil

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: paul@pj.tmc.edu (Thorongil)
Subject: Re: Glorfindel: one or two?
Keywords: Glorfindel
Organization: Mississippi State University ERC
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 14:54:09 GMT

Merri L Naka writes:
>Here's something that I've been wondering about for a long time: A
>Glorfindel is mentioned in The Silmarillion.  He's the one who saves
>the day for the some of the Gondolindrim, fleeing from the destruction
>of their city.  He's killed and his body is (saved by the eagles and)
>buried up in the mountains.
>
>Now in TLOTR, there is mention of a Glorfindel, who helps Frodo and
>co. on their way to Imladris.
>
>Question: Is the Glorfindel mentioned in TLOTR the same Glorfindel of
>Gondolin, come back to Middle Earth?
>
>Pardon me if this is mentioned in another book, but please let me know
>if it is.  I've only read The Silmarillion and TLOTR, though both many
>times!  :)
>
>Thanks,
>Merri
>
>--
>Merri Naka
>mnaka@ics.uci.edu
>University of California, Irvine

Good question Merry uh.. Merri :)  This particular one has been asked
several times on the Tolkien Mailing List.  The following is a reply
posted to the List by William D.B. Loos :

---

However, as always, Tolkien was ahead of us, and had thought about this.  The
passage in question from _The Return of the Shadow_ follows.  The Hobbits have
reached Rivendell, but Tolkien was to re-write everything twice before moving
on; the editorial voice, of course, is Christopher Tolkien:

"  Some notes that were scribbled down at Sidmouth in Devon in the late summer
of 1938 (see Carpenter, _Biography_, p. 187) on a page of doodles evidently
represent my father's thoughts for the next stages of the story at this time:

          Consultation.  Over M[isty] M[ountains].  Down Great River to
      Mordor.  Dark Tower.  Beyond(?) which is the Fiery Hill.
          Story of Gilgalald told by Elrond?  Who is Trotter?  Glorfindel
      tells of his ancestry in Gondolin.

"... Very notable is 'Glorfindel tells of his ancestry in Gondolin'.  Years
later, long after the publication of _The Lord of the Rings_, my father gave
a great deal of thought to the matter of Glorfindel, and at that time he
wrote: '[The use of Glorfindel] in LotR is one of the cases of the somewhat
random use of the names found in the older legends, now referred to as The
Silmarillion, which escaped reconsideration in the final published form of
LotR.'  He came to the conclusion that Glorfindel of Gondolin, who fell to his
death in combat with a Balrog after the sack of the city (II. 192-4, IV.145),
and Glorfindel of Rivendell were one and the same: he was released from Mandos
and returned to Middle-earth in the Second Age.  "
                                                      (Return, p. 214-215)
 
("Trotter" was the original name for Strider; II and IV refer to other volumes
 in the History of Middle-earth Series.)
 
---

Thus the two Glorfindel's are actually one and the same.  The above text
comes from _The Return of the Shadow_ , a book published by Christopher
Tolkien containing his father's notes.  

Thorongil

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: mcoyle@fraser.sfu.ca (Strider Coyle)
Subject: Re: Other series?
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Distribution: World
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 00:08:44 GMT

	Another series I really liked is Roger Zelazny's _Amber_. I am
none too sure what the extent of the books are now, but I have read
the first 6 of them four times over. Very interesting views on Law,
Chaos, and the muliverse, as well as majic and reality. I think he is
still in the process of a second series now.

         />	Michael (Strider) Coyle
        /< 	mcoyle@sfu.ca     michaec@sfu.ca     coyle@mcf.ucs.sfu.ca
[\\\\\\(O):::<=================================- 
        \<      Distributed Computing Support Group,                     
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: patel@cs.uiuc.edu (Anand C. Patel)
Subject: Re: Should LOTR Movie be Made?
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Distribution: na
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 23:12:12 GMT

In <BzHqoM.Csr@acsu.buffalo.edu> swann@acsu.buffalo.edu (Stephen Swann) writes:

>In article <BzA9wB.5zD@unix.amherst.edu> jdliss@unix.amherst.edu (Jeff Liss) writes:
>>justice to the books.  Anyone have any suggestions?  I don't think
>>Coppola could do it (not after DRACULA), nor Kubrick (see THE SHINING);
>>perhaps Bertolucci or Scott?

Kubrick's least work should not be his marker, look at 2001 and Clockwork
Orange -- I know of no movies truer to the text -- especially Clockwork
Orange, whose only difference is the substitution of one intellectual/
allegorical allusion for a more visual suggestion (the phallic sculpture
murder technique as opposed to the Beethoven Bust technique . . .)

AC

-- 
Anand C. Patel    |"We separate past and future and find that time is an amalgam
SigVR Chairman    | of both. We separate good and evil and find that mind is an
patel@cs.uiuc.edu | amalgam of both. To understand, we must grasp the whole."
(217) 367-4624    | 				 -- Isaac Asimov
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: arsmith@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Alan Smith)
Subject: Re: Balrogs vs. Ringwraiths ... and a question
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 04:26:17 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO  80523

In article <1992Dec10.203706.7493@mcs.kent.edu> mcconnel@Nimitz.mcs.kent.edu (Mike McConnell) writes:
>In article <1992Dec10.130857.1083@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM>, cannell@churchill.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Eric.Cannell) writes:
>|> >Not assuming the Host of the West to be so lax, they would have taken care
>|> >that none escaped. That one did, was a near catastrophy - destroying the
>|> >Dwarf culture of Khazad-Dum and (sort of) costing Gandalf's life.
>|> 
>|> Possibly this particular balrog chickened out and fled the field
>|> before the West showed up to do battle?
> This seems a bit far-fetched

Well, maybe the armies of the west weren't as thorough as they liked to believe.
If *I* was a Balrog and my liege lord was getting his butt kicked I'd give 
serious thought to sneaking out the back way and staking a claim at the
root of a mountain far, far away.

Anyway, He (or they) got out somehow, and maybe Tolkien didn't specify
for a reason.
From: karnabba@w271zrz.zrz.tu-berlin.de (Alexander Karner)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: The movie...
Date: 15 Dec 1992 13:08:35 GMT
Organization: ZRZ/TU-Berlin
Distribution: world
Reply-To: karnabba@w250zrz.zrz.tu-berlin.de
NNTP-Posting-Host: w271zrz.zrz.tu-berlin.de

Hiho...

As I discovered this newsgroup today, I've read something
about a movie.
Is this only a diskussion, which actors may fit in a spe-
cific role, or is there the planning of a new movie about
the mysteries of the ring???

I've seen the old movie and I would like to see a new version
of it....maybe directed by the Lucas/Spielberg - team...

Please write to this group or email me!

---
Alexander Karner
email: karnabba@w250zrz.zrz.tu-berlin.de
       karnabba@w271zrz.zrz.tu-berlin.de

TU-Berlin, Germany
From: tohall@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Dave Hall (Sverdrup))
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: the Balrog in Moria
Date: 11 Dec 92 18:48:00 GMT
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Dec10.232208.26896@athena.mit.edu>, ckcoll@athena.mit.edu (Charles A Collins) writes...
>In article 1016 dzik@access.digex.com writes:
> 
...

>The dwarves would surely have been incapable of
>PREVENTING that invasion, but since no mention is made of them attempting
>to do so we might assume that the balrog hid itself from them or entered the
>caverns through some hidden route. Indeed, the cavern that the balrog inhabited
>there might not even have been attached to Moria at the time of its invasion.
>The dwarves may have awakened it by expanding into its area.
> 
>                                             Charlie


     Several themes have been circulating on this thread, here are my 2 cents
worth:

1) The Balrog(s) were servants/creations of Morgoth meant to help defeat
the forces of good. Sauron is also a servant/emmisary of Morgoth. The 
rings fashioned by Sauron for the dwarves inspired them to dig deeper
due to a lust for glod, thus disturbing the Balrog and causing the great
dwarvish fortress under the mountains to fall. Sounds like a plan to me!
No force could conquer Khazad-Dum from outside. The defenses were too strong.
It had to come from inside!


2) The Balrog never left Moria because it was performing a service for its
master (Morgoth). It prevented the dwarves from re-establishing their 
stronghold. The Misty mountains became infested with Orcs and trolls. The
Elven folk of Lothlorien (almost next door) were even more cut off from their
potential allies the dwarves. 



                               Regards, 


                                       DH
From: donini@masg1.epfl.ch (Pier Donini)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: ME maps
Keywords: maps, ICE, MERP
Date: 18 Dec 92 14:08:32 GMT
Organization: Ecole Polytechnique Federale de Lausanne

What are, in your opinion, the most trustable maps of Western Middle Earth ?
I personally think that the ones done by ICE for MERP are the best ones... that
I saw. The maps of "Journeys of Frodo" or from "The Atlas of ME" look a bit
weak (well, the 'atlas' seems quite ok). I also feel that the maps from the 
books are *very* weak (and sometimes in contradiction with the text).

Are some other maps available ?

Pier.
From: laurence@cco.caltech.edu (Dustin Lee Laurence)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: "Passing away" into the West (was Re: Rivendell)
Date: 17 Dec 1992 22:30:31 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu

uh311ae@sunmanager.LRZ-Muenchen.DE (Henrik Klagges) writes:
y
>jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU (James Alexander Chokey) writes:
>>	In any case, passing across the Sea seems to be the Elvish equivalent 
>>of death.  Tolkien certainly does seem to use a good deal of deathly language
>>and symbolism to describe the Elves' journey from the mortal lands of Middle-
>>earth to the Undying Lands of the Uttermost West.

>>	--  Jim C. <jchokey@leland.stanford.edu>
>I disagree, for a simple reason. The elvish equivalent for death _is_ death,
>after all they can be slain, commit suicide, or perish by disease. The only
>difference is that they are not bound to die unconditionally, as the mortals
>are. To be more finicky, both elven & human warriors sit in the very same
>halls of Mandos after their death (I have to admit, though, that T hints
>different fates for them afterwards).
>Henrik

Hmm.  I'm afraid that I agree with Jim.  The "Death" in voyaging West,
though, is a rather Christianized view of death, and (at least for the
Eldar) is also related to the equation of death and submission to God
which is a common theme in the New Testament.  In coming back to Middle
Earth at all, The Eldar who followed the sons of Feanor sinned in the same
way that Adam and Eve did; through pride and disobedience.  The reason that
the Eldar waited so long in Middle Earth had to do with an aversion to
humbling themselves before Manwe again.

-- 
Dustin Laurence       "As sensitive and broad-minded humans, we must never
                       allow ourselves to be in any way judgmental of the
laurence@alice         religious practices of other people, even when these
caltech.edu           people clearly are raving space loons." -- Dave Barry
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: j-germuska@nwu.edu (Joe Germuska)
Subject: Re: Paths of the Dead
Originator: germuska@casbah.acns.nwu.edu
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, Illinois, USA
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 20:50:07 GMT

I will admit, the first several times I read the books, this part left me a
little confused, too.  I don't have the books here to reference, but my
take was basically this:  the dead in those paths had betrayed Aragorn's
ancestors, and as thus, were unable to rest.  In preparation for the final
battle, knowing he would need any and all allies, Aragorn lead his party
through the paths in order to rally the dead -- by joining him in this
battle, they would absolve themselves of their past wrongs.  Gimli, of
course, with the traditional dwarven distrust of things spiritual, finds
the passage particularly hard.

I think that's about what happened... does that help at all?

Joe
-- 
|   Joe Germuska   |   j-germuska@nwu.edu   |   (708) 869-0354   |

-- 
|   Joe Germuska   |   j-germuska@nwu.edu   |   (708) 869-0354   |

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: wft@math.canterbury.ac.nz (Bill Taylor)
Subject: Re: Movie Roles ....
Organization: Department of Mathematics, University of Canterbury
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 22:39:50 GMT

In article <Bz62pI.BJx@acsu.buffalo.edu>, swann@acsu.buffalo.edu (Stephen Swann) writes:

|> "Wormtongue":    -Definitely- Rowan Atkinson.  Definitely. 

BRILLIANT !  Don't know why it hasn't been suggested before. 
Atkinson would utterly steal the show as Wormtongue.

|> I'd make him one of Sharkey's men, or maybe the "mouth of Sauron".  ;-)

No.  The Mouth of Sauron has just got to be Bruce Dern.

|> Aragorn is probably the hardest character to cast. 

You sure said it !  A real toughie.

For this difficult combination of wether-beatenness, acerbity, but hidden 
nobility and compassion, perhaps Edward Fox would be O.K.?

Trouble is, Edward Fox might be needed to go alongside brother James, as
Boromir and Faramir, respectively.  Pride vs sensitivity, just right; 
relative ages, just right.  And best of all, clearly a brother.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              Bill Taylor              wft@math.canterbury.ac.nz
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Galaxies - results of chaotic amplification of quantum events in the big bang.
 Free will- the result of chaotic amplification of quantum events in the brain.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien