From: richter@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (C. Richter)
Subject: SURVEY RESULTS: Retail Horticultural Expertise
Organization: UTCS Public Access
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 02:56:06 GMT

Survey Summary: Expertise in Retail Horticultural Industry
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By Conrad Richter 
 
As promised I have compiled responses to my informal survey on the 
level of expertise in the retail horticultural industry.  The survey 
was not scientific by a long shot, but it stimulated some thoughful
and, for me, surprising accounts of dealings with the retail industry. 
 
There were a total of 10 responses from my postings in the Usenet 
newsgroup rec.gardens and in the gardening forum on Compuserve.  I 
expected more responses; so I wonder if, many of the gardeners who hang 
around computers just aren't experienced enough to know what's what.  
 
What was interesting to me was the general level of confidence in 
mailorder companies and their catalogues. This constrasted sharply 
with the general lack of confidence in the local nurseries.  Those 
who did find good information at the local nurseries often persist 
in seeking out the owners or "old guy out back" and avoid wasting  
time with the seasonal help.
 
Three out ten respondents said that the level of expertise in the retail 
industry declined as suggested by "knowledge ratio" statistics reported 
by Nuala Beck and Associates.  One didn't know if there was any change, 
and only two disagreed with the KR figures, both suggesting that the KR 
dropped even more than reported!
 
 
Here is the original posting:
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According to Nuala Beck of Nuala Beck and Associates, U.S. nurseries and 
garden stores experienced the largest percentage decrease in what is 
called the "knowledge ratio" from 1983 to 1991.  In an article published 
in the Globe and Mail (Toronto, Sept. 15, 1992), the knowledge ratio 
dropped from 11.1 to 5.8 (48.1%) over the period.  Other industries 
experiencing large drops were employment agencies (39.5 to 32.1, -18.7%), 
libraries (44.5 to 37.7, -15.3%), and trust companies (38.2 to 34.2, 
-10.5%).   
 
The knowledge ratio is defined as the proportion of workers who are
professionals, including engineering, technical and scientific staff, 
and selected senior managers.  
 
I would be interested to know what the experiences of netters are in 
dealing with the retail horticultural industry.  Most of you are 
members of this "knowledge elite" in your own fields, so you know the 
importance of good information.  Have you been given wrong, incomplete 
or no information at all relating to products you bought?  Do you 
feel that the companies you buy from are competent and willing to 
answer your questions?  Are mailorder companies better or worse than   
local nurseries?  Do you make your buying decisions at least 
partly based on the confidence that if you have questions you can 
get answers from that firm?  Have the companies you dealt with 
referred questions about a product they sell to someone else?  If so, 
have they referred you to another company, botanical garden, library 
or horticultural extension service?  Do you feel that the "knowledge" 
of retail operations has dropped, stayed the same, or risen over the 
past ten years?
 
Please email your responses.  I will post a summary.  
 
 
[Wondering if we too should throw our brains into the compost to get 
our 20% KR down to industry levels.]
 
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Here are some comments organized by the questions from my posting
and by three additional subtopics that developed out of the answers 
to the questions.
 
Q1.  Have you been given wrong, incomplete or no information at all 
relating to products you bought?  
 
     Yes 4, No 0
 
     "... bought pennyroyal seeds that instructed me to grow it 
     as an annual as it would never survive our winter.  Not only 
     has it survived, but it's becoming invasive."
 
     "When I first got a job at a nursery (in Washigton, DC) I was
     told that if a customer asked me the height of the plant, and 
     I couldn't remember, that most of the plants grew to about 
     1.5 ft, so that was a safe answer."
 
     "I don't know everything about green stuff, but some of the answers 
     I've gotten don't even make horse sense, much less plant sense.
     What can you do???  I just say, 'Well, that doesn't sound right'
     and walk away.  Wrong answers: YES.  Mis-leading answers: YES.
     B%llsh&t answers: ALL THE TIME."
 
     "...I could not get the same explanation, on different days, 
     from the same store!"
 
 
Q2.  Do you feel that the companies you buy from are competent and 
willing to answer your questions?  
 
     Yes 0, No 2 (some if you know the right guy ask: 3)  
     
     "Most of the nurseries around here are fairly dismal, staffed by 
     ex-newspaper carriers and hamburger flippers." 
     
     "The local retail outlets we have here [Texas] probably don't 
     reflect very well on the national trend.  In addition to an 
     overall lack of real expertise on things flora, the literacy 
     rate and english communication skills are quite low.  Overall
     it ends up being a real frustrating experience to try to get 
     real help from them.  ... Even among supposed 'Texas Certified
     Nurserymen' the actaul level of expertise surprises me.  Overall
     I'd say in our area the ratio is more like 1 or 2 percent."
 
     "They either say they don't know or give faulty advice.  You 
     have to consider the source."
 
     "By the way, the person (son of the owner) responsible for 
     the perennials section of the nursery in Rockville called them 
     'weeds', and had a garden consisting of a lawn and a pot of 
     petunias.  Purple w/ white stripes."
 
     "K-marts, Lowes, etc. etc. employ teeny boppers who don't know 
     a bulb from a pot - and only sometimes water the plants.  Anyone 
     who expects a knowledgeable answer from such a workforce is fooling
     themselves, and at least 85% of the fool-ees know it but persist
     in playing the game!"
 
 
Q3.  Are mailorder companies better or worse than local nurseries?  
 
     No one specifically answered the question, but indirectly 4  
     favoured mailorder companies.  
 
     "The quality of mailorder catalog information is generally high, 
     though a bit overstated... The wholesale catalogs are often good 
     sources of technical information, but I often wind up asking 
     for spec sheets for anything critical."
 
     "White Flower Farms gave me great advice, as did a nursery that 
     I know has been in business for 20 years... It's the same with 
     mail order houses.  I wouldn't trust xxxxxx, but I would trust 
     you.  When I ask a question of Adelma Grenier Simmons I know 
     I'm getting the very best advice because she's been growing herbs 
     for 40 years."
 
     ".. there are some quality mail order firms: JL Hudson, Redwood 
     City, T&M, even Conrad's operation as well as others."
 
     "In planning long term purchases, I tend to buy mail order, as 
     there is reassurance in the written word.  The only problem I've 
     encountered from that was being at the mercy of the shipping people."
 
     "Maybe I'm lucky to live near a really great garden center.  Here 
     in Madison the Jung Seed Company has a retail outlet.  They have 
     a huge selection of plants.  These are, naturally, the same 
     plants/seeds that you could order from their catalog."
 
 
Q4.  Do you make your buying decisions at least partly based on the 
confidence that if you have questions you can get answers from that firm?  
 
     Yes 3, No 0
 
     "There is exactly one garden center in my area I trust - almost."  
     I make dXXn sure I'm talking to someone who at least looks like 
     they have planted a tree.  I've also been there enuf to recognize 
     the regular *winter* faces from the summer students."
 
     "I now buy from the various publicly held private gardens, and the 
     boutiques, such as yours." 
     
     "Last time I was there I left without buying anything because  
     the variety was so great that I would have to spend hours 
     reviewing what was avilable in order to make a decision.  I chose 
     to go home and page through the catalog to decide what to buy."
 
 
Q5.  Have the companies you dealt with referred questions about a product 
they sell to someone else?  If so, have they referred you to another 
company, botanical garden, library or horticultural extension service?  
 
     Yes 1, No 1
 
     "I once asked a question at a local nursery and was told there was 
     an obliging botanist at the University, phone 2218, and she could 
     answer my question.  Yep.  Well, at least I know where some of 
     my phone calls come from."
 
     "I have never had a nursery refer me to the county extension 
     agent, or to a biological garden.  They either say they don't
     know or give faulty advice."
 
 
Q6.  Do you feel that the "knowledge" of retail operations has dropped, 
stayed the same, or risen over the past ten years?
 
     Dropped 3, Same 0, Risen 0
 
     "Maybe I'm just getting pickier in my old old, but yes, it seems      
     like the quality of information has gone down."
     
     "[..quality of information has gone down]... Except for Cornucopia, 
     don't you think?"  
     
     "I suspect the real ratio dropped 84.x% vs. the 48.x% cited... 
 
 
Subtopic 1.   Where to get reliable information. 
 
     "If I want some good info, I look for the old guy out back with the 
     holstered pruners, or the not-too-well-dressed young woman who is 
     actually *handling* the plants as she works.... "Much of my childhood 
     veg. gardening info not learned from relatives was from old Italian 
     market gardeners.  Now it's from Hmong market gardeners and the 
     local Amish families.... Where do I go when I need info?  Usuallly 
     to the library, unless I happen to know someone who is knowledgeable 
     in that facet.  I also call botanical gardens that I know grow the 
     plant, hort extension people, and whoever's listed as having a 
     taxonomic interest in that plant family."
 
     "These days I listen to people on the forum who really know what 
     they're about, or just experiment on my own.... I talked to the 
     the owners when I need advice, not the high school students they 
     have working there."
 
     "I don't even trifle with the extension service.... I usually end
     up just going direct to a university experiment station for help....
     I have ended up relying on independent research, other 'experts' 
     (like people on the Garden forum), and my own testing.  Life is 
     much better now."
 
     "... my students in public relations keep telling ne 'Advertising
     doesn't cost: it pays.'  Seems to me that most of the gardening 
     info the general public picks up _is_ from advertising."
     
 
Subtopic 2.  The labour market. 
 
     "Mean time of employment in the nurseries around here is << 1 yr...
     What I want to know is where are those gazillion hort undergrads
     I taught at Iowa State?"
 
     "Your legions of hort undergrads...probably are doing something 
     that pays more than the average nursery worker gets.  Like Data 
     Entry, Pizza delivery, or mowing lawns.  Most of the reason for 
     turnover in nursery staff is due to low pay. Some of the remaining
     reason is due to the fact that a disproportionate number of
     nursery owners and managers are slimeballs. If you get ANY good
     advice from a nursery worker, either the nursery is an
     exceptionally good one or the employee is an exceptionally devoted
     person."
 
     "Don't you think part of the problem is the stores hiring 'cheap 
     labor' that is not motivated to learn the product?  My Gawd! Even 
     car salesmen have sales meetings once a week!"
    
 
Subtopic 3.  The knowledge ratio of the customer. 
 
     "I don't think that the mainstream understands the reality of plants, 
     so in a free market, the producers sell what the consumers want to 
     buy." 
 
     "IMHO, consumers buy what the producers offer, usually whatever 
     producers can make the biggest splash with for the least cost and 
     effort.  What do consumers know about plants except what they see 
     in front of their faces?  And if a species won't bloom in a cramped 
     6-pack, they aren't going to buy it on the strength of a photo and 
     some catalog copy.... The producers aren't going to start offering 
     more variety until the consumers start acting like they're willing 
     to try something new.  But they aren't going to try something new 
     unless they're educated that the new item is desirable."
 
     "A friend of mine who has worked at a local garden centre for the 
     last three years claims that 9 out of 10 people who walk into the 
     bedding plants area in May have NO IDEA what they want.  They just 
     pick up whatever looks nice at the moment.  He goes on to claim that 
     he could easily sell them anything he wanted to since they don't 
     know what's available in the Real Gardening World anyway.  Those 1 
     out of 10 people who go for something less ubiquitous than impatiens
     and petunias aren't worth the cost of providing a better selection.
     I start my own... have to, since none of the garden centres has 
     anything close to what I want."
 
     "I've spent a lot of time over the last five years restoring 
     historical gardens for local museums, and my most prominent 
     impression is that our modern plants have become very small in 
     comparison with the old varieties.  Think back to the old-fashioned 
     Grandmother's garden.  4 ft tall Giant Cactus zinnias, 3 ft tall 
     Giant Comet asters, celosia as tall as me, love-lies-bleeding as 
     tall as a fence.... Most people used to spend a lot more time in 
     their gardens than they do today (rec.gardenites excepted, of 
     course).  More people started their own plants from seed in the 
     winter than do today, and they were more willing to wait until the 
     plants reached a mature size before they bloomed.  Also, they used 
     spring-blooming perennials and biennials more, so they could
     afford to wait until mid-summer or late-summer for the annuals to 
     bloom.  And they did wait - it was quite acceptable to wait until 
     August for the annual asters to bloom.  Today, most people want to 
     go the garden centre, buy a few flats of something pretty, plant & 
     forget them, and have blooms within a week (must last all summer, 
     too)."
 
 
My thanks to all who responded to the survey.  If any comments used are 
incorrectly quoted out of context, my apologies.  I learned a lot, and   
I am moved to comply with one respondent's exhortation: "Don't you dare 
throw your brains onto the compost heap!" 
 

-- 
Conrad Richter                     richter@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca
Richters Herbs                     71550.3411@compuserve.com
Goodwood, ON L0C 1AO Canada        Tel 416-640-6677 / Fax 416-640-6641