HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: Alaska to shoot hundreds of wolves from airplanes
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
	<1992Nov20.124348.1@vmsb.is.csupomona.edu>
Date: 20 Nov 92 13:51:28

I think public opinion is unbalanced in the matter of caribou vs. wolves.
What is needed is a movie Dances with Caribou or a remake of Bambi
with Bambi as a caribou whose mother is killed by a wolf.
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
From: hall@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Hal F Lillywhite)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Multiplying in the Backcountry (kids/population)
Date: 18 Nov 92 15:43:48 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or.

In article <Bxw5LE.ErA@rice.edu> sbyrnes@rice.edu (Steven Byrnes) writes:

>According to the CIA World Fact Book, available electronically via Project
>Gutenberg, the United States' total fertility rate is 1.8 children born per
>woman as of 1991.  (The net migratation rate, according to this source, is
>2 migrants per 1,000 population as of 1991.)

Interesting, especially if we do a bit of arithmetic on these
numbers.  If we assume the average woman lives 80 years this is 160
immigrants per 1000 population during her lifetime.  Approximately
half the population is female giving 160 immigrants per 500 females
or 0.32 average immigrants per female over her lifetime.  Adding
this to the 1.8 average children she bears we get 2.12 new additions
to the population for each female over her lifetime.  Since I don't
remember the exact replacement rate needed I'm not sure if this
represents positive or negative population growth, but it must be
close to the borderline.  A 5.66% death rate of females prior to
maturity would put it at exactly flat growth.  Of course I am
assuming an average lifetime for adult females which may not be
correct but I think we are in the ballpark.  Immigration rates of
course fluctuate quite a bit so I don't think we are going to get an
exact answer anyway.
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: chris@chinook.atd.ucar.edu (Chris Webster)
Subject: Re: Multiplying in the Backcountry (kids/popul
Reply-To: chris@chinook.atd.ucar.edu
Organization: Research Aviation Facility, NCAR, Boulder, CO
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 18:49:41 GMT

jeffk@dosXX.med.utah.edu (Jeff Knell) writes:
>I believe that for a short time (70's ?) the
>growth rate was near zero, but the mating
>habits of the baby boomers have change that.
>
>Anyone out there have the numbers?

If I recall correctly the 1980 census said 240 million
people in the US and 280 million in the 1990 census.

--Chris
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: vsh@etnibsd.uucp (Steve Harris)
Subject: Re: Guide info
Keywords: guide
Organization: Eaton Corp, Semiconductor Equipment Div., Beverly, MA
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 23:55:01 GMT

In article <Bxv5BL.BoL@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> mratliff@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Michael S. Ratliff) writes:
>
>I am looking for information on how to become a guide.

If you are looking for info re: getting a Guide License in Maine, I can
send you an address.  I think it takes several years.
-- 
... Steve Harris - Eaton Corp. - Beverly, MA - vsh%etnibsd@uunet.uu.net
Xref: sparky rec.backcountry:9163 sci.environment:12971 talk.environment:4739 alt.wolves:251
From: jagrant@emr1.emr.ca (John Grant)
Subject: Re: Grand Canyon
Keywords: Graand Canyon, accomodations
Organization: Energy, Mines, and Resources, Ottawa
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 23:43:13 GMT

In article <1ej7nmINN3p4@agate.berkeley.edu> elwood@sag4.ssl.berkeley.edu (Elisha Polomski) writes:
>
>I may be going to visit the Canyon in January--
	[stuff deleted]
>Also, I heard it takes 2 days to hike down and back up 
>floor via Bright Angel trail. Is this true?? Or only
>true for domesticated hikers??? I 've hiked up and
>down 6000ft peaks in one day with time and energy to spare.

	You can hike to the bottom and back from the south rim in a day.
	(about 10-12 hours).

	Don't go up & down the same way!  I went down the trail to the
	east (I forget the name) and then came up the Bright Angel trail.
	A wonderful hike.  I went in July (hot! - it was blazing hot at
	5 am when I started) and brought 6 litres of water - I drank it
	all.

	I have also hiked from the north rim to the bottom and back in a
	single day (~40 km) but I don't recommend it - I wasn't dead,
	but I was dragging my ass for the last couple of hours.

	Finally, don't forget that the mountain to climb is at the end of
	the day, not at the start of the day!
-- 
John A. Grant						jagrant@emr1.emr.ca
Airborne Geophysics
Geological Survey of Canada, Ottawa
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: rjg@doe.carleton.ca (Richard Griffith)
Subject: Re: Lunches and Snacks: what do you bring?
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 22:14:11 GMT

In <90TMS.92Nov22210657@tw200.eng.cam.ac.uk> 90tms@eng.cam.ac.uk (T.M. Speight) writes:
>   This thread has evolved from the practical issue of lunch and snacks
>   to the greater question of Food for Fun.

>As an alternative high-energy emergency food, I now take those jellies
>that come wrapped in a polymer package to which you're supposed to add
>water and then leave to set. I discovered the value of this food by
>accident, when I ran out of food on a trip to Scotland and ended up
>eating a friend's. One great advantage is that I find it too sugary
>and sticky to eat unless it _really_is_ an emergency; an important
>consideration in my view.

Do you eat the jello powder raw?? I suppose that would work.

For a kick in the pants winter alternative try a cup of hot jello mix.
Water & sugar + trace elements -> instant energy.
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna)
Subject: Re: Multiplying in the Backcountry (kids/population)
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 21:48:14 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department

In article <10782@vice.ICO.TEK.COM> hall@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Hal F Lillywhite) writes:
>
>There will always be
>fluctuations in short term population growth.  It would make no
>sense to apply a long term tool to short term questions.

The world population has been growing monotonically since day one of
human history.  How is this a short term question?  I think we are
over-analyzing.

The point I'm trying to make is that it is our problem no matter who's
fault it is.  It's a lot easier to worry about recycling aluminum cans,
and stay oblivious to the fact that a billion more people will be added
to the population in the next 10 years.

Having more than two kids is wrong in my book, <sarcasm on> even if you are
an educated white person <sarcasm off>.
-- 

-Wayne Trzyna
 trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: allen%asylum.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Allen Sanderson)
Subject: Re: Long-term cave exploration - waste disposal?
Date: 23 Nov 92 09:56:58 MST
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept

jag9931@rigel.tamu.edu (GLENNON, JOHN ALAN) writes:
>  The Park Service has closed Lechuguilla Cave temporarily to exploration 
>while such resource management issues are examined.  


Question ? In Lechuguilla Cave they had people remove ALL clothing
before entering one of the pools to keep it pure.  People would place
all of their clothes in a dry bag and swim across the pool.  Now this
makes sense from one point of view.  Their clothes are  probably very
dirty (ie dirt and grime) that would come off in the water.  However
the human body is probably just as dirty yet they went in naked.  It
seems that if they were really concerned with the water (which they
should be) then they should have had dry siut for people to put on
just for swimming accross the water.  Any comments ?

Allen R. Sanderson

Salt Lake City, Oootah
From: cvakgaaq@vmsb.is.csupomona.edu
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: The overpopulation problem. NOT!
Date: 20 Nov 92 20:30:59 GMT
 <1992Nov18.123756.1@vmsb.is.csupomona.edu> <Bxz4GK.JxL@inews.Intel.COM> <3929@master.CNA.TEK.COM>
Organization: California State Polytechnic University, Pomona
Nntp-Posting-User: cvakgaaq

In article <3929@master.CNA.TEK.COM>, mikeq@freddy.CNA.TEK.COM (Mike Quigley) writes:
> The way I heard it: No matter how hard you try, or what your faith,
> you still can't cram 6 pounds of shit into a 5 pound bag!
> 
> Mike


	But some of us don't shit, and if we do, it doesn't stink. Others get
five pounds of Spectra cloth and make HUGE bags and shit all we want.

-Austin
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry,talk.environment
From: floyd@hayes.ims.alaska.edu (Floyd Davidson)
Subject: Re: Alaska to shoot hundreds of wolves from airplanes
Organization: University of Alaska Computer Network
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 05:07:35 GMT

In article <24135@hacgate.SCG.HAC.COM> tucker@shiva.UUCP (George Tucker) writes:
>
>
>BTW, I finally realized that when Alaskans favoring shooting the
>wolves speak of "tourists", they mean those who pay big money to
>shoot something big.  The people who drive and hike are just
>obnoxious rabble.
>
>	 George Tucker        tucker@shiva.hac.com
>	Signature line awaiting FDA approval.

Posie sniffers.  Obnoxious by definition, rabble by desire...
Thats what they calls 'em, posie sniffers.

Of course those of us who are opposed to shooting wolves speak in
just about the same terms, but...

Floyd
Xref: sparky rec.backcountry:8926 rec.climbing:4489
From: bhilden@bigriver.Eng.Sun.COM (Bruce Hildenbrand)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry,rec.climbing
Subject: Re: GoreTex bags (was Re: Light & Warm Synthetic Bag: PARADOX?)
Date: 17 Nov 92 00:40:20 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigriver-248

In article <1e1j5gINNodj@hpscdf.scd.hp.com> sommer@scd.hp.com (Jeremy Sommer) writes:
>edward.e.harstead (bohack@cbnewsl.cb.att.com) wrote:
>: In article <BxnxJ4.1zB@brunel.ac.uk> Paul.Williams@brunel.ac.uk (Paul M Williams) writes:
>: >Ive recently tested a Wild Country Taped Seam Goretex Bivvy bag in
>: >VERY heavy rain and ended up sleeping ( or trying to sleep ) in a "lake" !
>
>: But how did the water get in?  From the bottom? (you mention "streams")
>
>Probably of water already captured.

Hey, I know it is Monday, but can somebody out there explain what this
phrase "Probably of water already captured" means!!!!!!

Bruce
From: bonn@networx.com (David Bonn)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: FIRST-AIDS KITS
Date: 18 Nov 92 02:44:22 GMT
Organization: NetWorx
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

lstarrit@dante.nmsu.edu (Larry Way Starritt) writes:
> 
> I would like suggestions on what should be in a Backpacker's
> first-aid kit.
> 

My first-aid kit has:

    Jane's Addiction CD (Ritual de lo Habitual)
    Mad Dog 20/20 Fortified Wine (1 Quart)
    Windshield Washer fluid (1 Gallon)
    Five-pointed posidrive screwdriver
    ...

Ooops, wrong list.  Seriously, the most important part of any first-aid kit
is the person performing first aid.  At the very least, get a basic Red
Cross card.  Make sure whoever you travel with has some first aid training too
(no first aid training does you much good when you're the victim).  More
advanced courses, geared for wilderness situations, are available.  In general,
you can't learn enough from books.  Intense instruction and even more intense
practice are required.  No matter how intense your instruction and practice
are, they won't be as intense as a broken leg a dozen miles from help.

Beyond that, these are some of the things I carry in the yellow bag (that
weighs about a pound):

    Moleskin and other foot repair stuff (Spenco (tm) Second Skin is useful)
    Some kind of anti-inflammatory painkiller
    Tums or Maalox
    Cloth tape

    ---- to this point, this stuff covers 99% or so the wilderness "first aid"
    ---- situations I have, the rest of this stuff is for real oh-my-gosh
    ---- full-on emergencies.

    Medical scissors (for cutting hunks of flesh, clothing, or hair)
    Single-edged razorblades (for finer work than the above can do)
    Three triangular bandages
    Two or three rolls of kling guaze
    Ace bandage, the bigger the better
    Half-dozen or so good-sized bandaids
    Little bottle of soap (dish soap is okay, phisohex is more medical)
    Two mini cold-packs (nifty things, about the size of my fist)
    Sam splint
    Rubber gloves, 3pr
    Two 1qt ziplocfreezerbags
    A few feet of cellophane
    Disposable thermometers, 5 (they're smaller than the bandaids anyway)

Beyond this, clothing can be used for compresses, tent poles, ski poles, ice
axes, and ensolite pads are useful for splints, and your trusty knife is
useful for field surgery (be sure to sterilize it before the appendectomy).

Realistically, most major-league medical emergencies cannot be effectively
treated in a wilderness situations.  The best you can realistically hope for
is to make sure no additional damage is done while waiting for rescue.
Something to think about when you're heading to some secret place.

	bonn@networx.com
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: The overpopulation problem. NOT!
From: cvakgaaq@vmsb.is.csupomona.edu
Date: 18 Nov 92 12:37:56 PST
Organization: California State Polytechnic University, Pomona
Nntp-Posting-User: cvakgaaq

In article <Nov18.190826.60351@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>, trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna) writes:

> To the contrary, it is the most important issue facing the future
> of "backcountry."  Those who've seen their favorite backcountry
> haunts ruined or being ruined understand the import.
> 
> -- 
> 
> -Wayne Trzyna
>  trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU




	Who gave you title to your "favorite" bit of backcountry? I'll bet
someone else claims you ruined it when you came along and used it. The last
time I looked, the "National" lands existed for the "enjoyment of all
Americans", or are you more American than others? Or do you just enjoy it more?
Or do you just enjoy it better? What special oil was placed on your brow which
makes the universe brighter around you? Can I lick your feet? 
	Please forgive us, O Ecofuhrers, for wanting to do anything you don't
like. Can I please just exist?

	Austin Moseley
--"The Earth is just an apparatus for human ambitions."
From: ehel@quads.uchicago.edu (E. Helsinger)
Subject: Re: Lunches and Snacks: what do you bring?
Reply-To: ehel@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 17:35:58 GMT

This thread has evolved from the practical issue of lunch and snacks
to the greater question of Food for Fun.

1. Kendall Mint Cake -- made in the English Lake District, intense
mint and refreshing, hard as a rock and keeps for years.  Nothing like
it for reviving the spirits -- the Black Bear that ripped open my
daypack this summer actually slowed down when he came to the Kendall
Mint Cake.  I don't know whether he slowed down because it was hard,
or because it was good.

2. On a canoe trip, when weight matters less, we carry a "bakepacker",
cook a biscuit, and top it with stewed apricots or other cooked dried
fruit.  It is, essentially, a fruit shortcake.  


-- 
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Prof. Elizabeth K. Helsinger, Dept. of English, U. of Chicago: 312-702-7990
Howard M. Helsinger, Altheimer & Gray, Chicago, IL. 312-715-4730
		email: e-helsinger@uchicago.edu
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Re: Warm clothing while hiking
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 22:52:50 GMT

The way to think about this is to prioritize your clothing to the extreme
for a moment.  If you understand how the body expends heats, you will
understand how to layer.

Suppose for a moment you are completely nude.  You ask yourself what
SINGLE piece of clothing would you like?  Now, it's going to depend
on conditions, but answer should largely be boots (a similar disussion
happened in rec.skiing).  Let's not dwell.  Okay, what's next?
Your answer should be either a hat or set of gloves.  Why?  These are
the body's radiators.  They have more blood to surface area than any other
parts.  The next phase should be what layers should come next? Typically
a wind break is more useful than dead air insulation layers.
What no underwear?  Think about the priorities, and you will reason certain
logical choices.  If the choices don't seem obvious, then read a few books.
Consider next how that might different in a warm weather situation.

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Associate Editor, Software and Publication Reviews
  Scientific Programming
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Seeking Books to buy:	Bongard, Pattern Recognition
			3 down 1 to go.
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: FELLOW TRAVELLER WANTED
From: hxvenus@ualr.edu
Date: 16 Nov 92 19:25:34 GMT
Organization: University of Arkansas at Little Rock

I'm Heiko, East German student that stays here for one year,

and would like to go backpacking to Central America during 

the Christmas break. Is there anyone who would like to join

me, please feel free to contact me :

HXVENUS@UALR.EDU
From: tucker@shiva.edsg.hac.com (George Tucker)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: USFS Backcountry Fees
Date: 18 Nov 92 03:21:20 GMT
Reply-To: tucker@shiva.UUCP (George Tucker)
Distribution: na
Organization: Hughes Aircraft Co., El Segundo, CA

In article <1ebq45INNm42@morrow.stanford.edu> AS.MSW@forsythe.stanford.edu (Marc Whitney) writes:
>I have just seen a news report on a proposal to charge user fees for
>backpacking and hiking use of the National Forests.  My first
>response was negative.  However, to say that the money collected
>would be used to replace logging revenues.  The implication was that
>for every $1 collected from backpackers there would be $1 less in
>timber sales.  If this is true I would be inclined to change my
>view.
>
>Does anyone have more information on this proposal?  If it would
>really reduce logging and new logging roads, I think a lot of people
>would be very interested.

Chuckle.
If that were the purpose they could simply double the timber fees, 
especially since they sell timber for much less than the damage caused
by logging.  Sounds like a timber industry ploy to reduce their fees.

If you believe them, perhaps you would be interested in a really
fine bridge I have for sale in New York?

I have no opinion on small user fees.  If they provide self-service
24-hour sign-in, unlike a lot of their permits, I would even pay them.

	 George Tucker        tucker@shiva.hac.com
	Signature line awaiting FDA approval.

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: fauvel@IRO.UMontreal.CA (Sylvain Fauvel)
Subject: Re: FIRST-AIDS KITS
Reply-To: fauvel@IRO.UMontreal.CA (Sylvain Fauvel)
Organization: Universite de Montreal
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 18:21:46 GMT

In article <1e9b9dINNm1@grapevine.EBay.Sun.COM> greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM writes:
>In article 23154@nmsu.edu, lstarrit@dante.nmsu.edu (Larry Way Starritt) writes:
>> 
>> I would like suggestions on what should be in a Backpacker's
>> first-aid kit.
>> 
>> Thanks
>> Larry
>> lstarrit@nmsu.edu
>
>
>
>Hiya Larry....
>
>WHat you put in your first aid kit first depends on your level of 
>training in first aid/medicine.
>
>There are many wilderness medicine books on the market, most by 
>MD's who are very involved with wilderness medicine. However, the
>camp is split when it comes to first aid kits.
>
>Some authors advocate taking a considerable amount of equipment,
>enough in fact to constitute a seperate pack just for medical.
>Needless to say, very few backpackers would ever carry this much
>extra weight.
>
>The book, Medicine for the Backcountry has a list of the minimum
>items one should not be without and there is an emphasis on everyday
>items that can be used in improvisation, such as plastic garbage bags.
>
>It is my personal opinion however that there is a great misunderstanding
>about first aid outside of the reach of 911....
>
>It's not what's in your first aid kit that will save a life, it's what's
>in your head....
>
>Greg
>

	I agree.  Totally.  As one of my first aid teacher told
    us (ski patroll training), "all we've got a pile of rags,
    a few pieces of cardboard and you should be able to handle
    about any type of medical emergencies".  Obviously youll
    also have clean bandages, scisors, tape and a few other
    items but it's not much.

	By the way, even a very short first aid course is
    worth more than reading any books.


						Sylvain Fauvel
>
>
From: HF.MMS@forsythe.stanford.edu (Mark Skubik)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: USFS Backcountry Fees
Date: 17 Nov 1992 19:32:03 -0800
Organization: Stanford University
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: morrow.stanford.edu

In article <1ebq45INNm42@morrow.stanford.edu>,
AS.MSW@forsythe.stanford.edu (Marc Whitney) writes:
>I have just seen a news report on a proposal to charge user fees for
>backpacking and hiking use of the National Forests.  My first
>response was negative.  However, to say that the money collected
>would be used to replace logging revenues.  The implication was that
>for every $1 collected from backpackers there would be $1 less in
>timber sales.  If this is true I would be inclined to change my
>view.
>
>Does anyone have more information on this proposal?  If it would
>really reduce logging and new logging roads, I think a lot of people
>would be very interested.
>
>Marc Whitney
>as.msw@FORSYTHE.stanford.edu
>

Part of the usage fee suggestion proposed gradation between
day use, overnight, extended and seasonal use fees.  A $25
seasonal pass was floated.  What they didn't say was if the
seasonal pass would be good for any and all areas within a
class, e.g., a Wilderness Area Pass, or a National Forest
Pass.  I'd be willing to come up with $25 a year to have
access to all National Forests.  I would be pissed off to
be charged for each individually.

Thinking about it, I'm in favor of the usage fees if it
really means a dollar-for-dollar reduction in logging
on public lands.  After all, the Forest service charges
almost nothing for land leasing, then builds logging roads
into the forest at taxpayer's expense.

But with any taxation scheme, I'd like to know the details.

Those apposed to the usage fees have argued that imposing
the fees on taxpayers (who already own the public land)
would mean charging you to use what's already yours.
Also that it would unfairly deny the poor to access to public
land.

On the first, I'd rather pay a little to keep the forests
than let the government give it away to logging companies
who pay for the salaries going to forest service personnel
charged with overseeing the logging operations, maintaining
logging roads, monitoring high country sheep and cattle heards
(to throw in another controversy) and the like.

On the second point, small usage fees do not keep the
poor folks out of the forest.  The cost of outfitting
a trip into the forest keeps the disadvantaged out.
Count up all of the bucks you've spent on gear, gas,
food and film and ask yourself what percentage of that
amount are you willing to pay annually to protect
your recreation areas from loggers and other public
land parasites.

Sure we own the land, but it costs money to maintain it.
We can pay to have it maintained for us or let the loggers
pay to have it maintaine for them.  Loggers are taxpayers
too, and have just as much right to the forest as non-
loggers.  If loggers are willing to pay and we are not,
guess who is going to get first access?

Anyway, enough of that rant.

Mark