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Date:         Wed, 7 Oct 1992 02:01:05 EDT
Reply-To:     "(Bill McGarry)" <wtm@sheldev.shel.isc-br.com>
From:         "(Bill McGarry)" <wtm@sheldev.shel.isc-br.com>
Subject:      Handicap Digest # 2955

                             THE HANDICAP DIGEST

                                 Issue # 2955

                         Wednesday, October 07, 1992

Today's Topics:


                                ******


                                  Re: PAIN
                                    Pain
                      Re tylenol with codeine in Canada
                              Let's Get Started
                                    PAIN!
                             RSD MEDLINE SEARCH
                                  Re: RSDS
                              Let's Get Started
                            Re: Let's Get Started
                                  Re: Pain


                                ******


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Subject: Re: PAIN
From: Linda.Cummings@f22.n375.z1.fidonet.org (Linda Cummings)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:375/22 - Ken's BBS, Montgomery AL


[This is from the Chronic Pain Conference]

In a message to Cindy Barnes:

 >As for more surgery, it was ruled out because they felt that part of the
 >pain was coming from the scar tissue that was already there and more
 >surgery would mean more scar tissue.

That sure sounds familiar to me...same here.  During the second surgery
(after the re-rupture), the doc tried to get out as much scar tissue as he
could, though.  But, I came out of that one worse off than when I went in.
I guess I'm just one of those people [sigh].

 >All in all, I'd say keep swimming, be very careful with the bowling (I
 >haven't even thought of trying that, but I'm going to try x-country skiing
 >this winter, Dr. said OK), and LIFT CORRECTLY!!!!!!!!!  I can't stress that
 >one enough.

I'm going to be able to keep an eye on her...Eddie's going to be bowling
with them this season and I'm taking pillows to get myself comfortable and
I'll surely yell at her if I think she's overdoing it with a heavier bowling
ball than she should be using, or if she's starting to throw the ball wrong.
I'll be a great "backseat bowler!"  }:-)

Linda

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Internet: Linda.Cummings@f22.n375.z1.fidonet.org




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Subject: Pain
From: Arthur.Saus@p160.f72.n376.z1.fidonet.org (Arthur Saus)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:376/72.160 - Windows of the Worl, Columbia SC


[This is from the Chronic Pain Conference]

Hello Nadine!

06 Sep 92, Nadine Thomas writes to Mary Frost:

 NT> I wanted to say that one of the NON-addictive pain medications
 NT> that does work is called Toridal (not sure on the spelling).  The only
 NT> problem with it is that it is only in injectable form.

Not any more!  Toradol is now available as a pill also.  The oral
form has only been available a few months, and suprisingly, the
dose is less than the dose needed for the injectable form.  It
seems that the oral form also offers good pain relief, just like
the injectable form.

Arthur

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Subject: Re tylenol with codeine in Canada
From: Caleb.Burns@p0.f14.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Caleb Burns)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:105/14.0 - Busker's Boneyard, Portland OR


[This is from the Chronic Pain Conference]

I recieved a message from someone in Canada who said that all that (s)he
has to do to get Tylenol Ones in Canada is to go to the Pharmacist and
ask for a bottle of Generic Tylenol Ones -- the price for that is $4.27.
On the other hand, Brand 222s cost about $10 to $11 a bottle. (The
medication is NOT on the shelves, but the pharmacists have it on the
back shelves and will get it for you.)
   I appreciate the feedback and would have responded directly, but
couldn't figure out how to direct a message back.
   Yours, Caleb

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Internet: Caleb.Burns@p0.f14.n105.z1.fidonet.org




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Subject: Let's Get Started
From: Arthur.Saus@p160.f72.n376.z1.fidonet.org (Arthur Saus)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:376/72.160 - Windows of the Worl, Columbia SC


[This is from the Chronic Pain Conference]

Hello Phyllis!

07 Sep 92, Phyllis Cohen writes to Arthur Saus:

 PC>  We're talking such generalities here!  Statistics tell us what the
 PC> probability is of something, but just because there is only one-tenth of
 PC> a millionth chance of something, doesn't mean that the person you're
 PC> talking to can't be that very one-tenth of a millionth person!

I agree wholeheartedly!  If you have been following other
discussions in this echo, I believe you will have noticed that this
is the same idea I have been trying to convey to many others.
Statistical probabilities are great for describing a population,
but have little meaning when applied to a specific individual.

 PC>  Do you know if any formal studies have been published such as what I
 PC> described to Linda?

I believe you are referring to the question of an association
between intervertebral disk disease and spinal or epidural
anesthesia.  Again, I will state that there is no literature
suggesting there is a relationship here.  I have researched many
anesthesiology texts and journals, and have even done a Medline
search looking for any literature suggesting there may be a
relationship, and have found nothing.  As I'm sure you understand
however, you can't prove that something does not exist.

On the other hand, a spinal or epidural injection of a drug, is not
associated with the intervertebral disk.  It certainly is
associated with the back, but not the intervertebral disk.  Spinal
and Epidural anesthesia and complications associated with these
procedures have been extensively studied and well documented in the
medical literature.  Since no literature suggests a disk problem is
associated, it seems fairly unreasonable to suggest that this
procedure could later lead to complications in what is basically an
unrelated part of the anatomy.

 PC>   It does seem like something that could get funded  if
 PC> anyone was looking for something to do a longitudinal study on.  At
 PC> least, it ought to, if it turned out that folks were becoming disabled
 PC> because of some little glitch in the procedures that no one ever thought
 PC> would make a difference.

I'm sure it would be well funded and studied if there was a
reasonable chance of establishing the relationship you have
suggested.  I would think the cost of this long-term study that you
have suggested would be enormous, with very little chance of
proving any relationship or improving patient care due to the
reasons I have outlined above.

I would not think this would be an area where resources should be
invested.  It would be far better to invest those resources in
areas of research that would have a far better chance of results
that could improve peoples' lives.  Even the government does not
have limitless resources to invest in studies that have little
chance of producing results; studies that are funded at least
appear to have a chance at the beginning of "producing a return"
for the investment.

 PC> And, it would save the government big bucks in
 PC> disability benefits and medical care if it could be improved.

Yes, I'm sure there are "big bucks" expended by the government due
to disabilities related to intervertebral disk problems.  It is
highly unlikely (virtually impossible) however that these problems
are in any way related to spinal or epidural anesthesia
administration.

Arthur

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Internet: Arthur.Saus@p160.f72.n376.z1.fidonet.org




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Subject: PAIN!
From: Ruthie.Hoffman@f223.n260.z1.fidonet.org (Ruthie Hoffman)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:260/223 - Interstellar System, Vine Valley NY


[This is from the Chronic Pain Conference]

Hiya Bob..

I'm so sorry to hear about your current situation.  I am not a
doctor, and I'm not YOUR doctor, but I can express my OPINION about
the pain killers and lack of them in your situation.  To me it
sounds like your doctor is more afraid of someone pointing a finger
at him about your intake of pain killers, than about your possible
addiction.  If I ever run into a doctor that refuses to acknowledge
my pain and help me deal with it in whatever way necessary so that
I may strive for some sort of comfort (note: strive, not
attain..sometimes that's not possible..sigh), then that's a doc
I'll not go to.

I take Darvocet.  Right now I'm not taking much of it at all.
Maybe 100-200 mg every week or 10 days!!!  But that's hasn't always
been the case.  Also, right now, I'm on 5-10 mg of Valium a day.  I
usually take 2.5 mg in the AM and 2.5 in the PM.  My doctor, and I,
are not worried about addiction with either of these drugs.  We
have tried several other types of drugs, including painkillers.

Maybe he isn't worried about it because I expressed concern a year
ago about possible addiction and was so anxious about it that I
started keeping a record (still do) of the drug taken and the time
and date. And maybe because I went through the PT program last
winter and use the TENS unit.  I don't know if these things has any
effect on his decision to use the drugs.  He was giving them to me
prior to this, I know, and the Physiatrist agreed that the
medications were ok too.

The excess weight isn't helping your pain,  you're right, but it
certainly isn't the cause of it.  You and I had surgery on the same
disk at about the same time too.  I had mine in Nov. 1989.  I
reinjured myself in Sept. 1990 though.  Have you had any scans
after the surgery??  Did they take out the whole disk and do a
fusion or what?

Don't think your doctor has all the right answers.  If you're truly
unhappy and can do it, get a second opinion.

Best of luck and remember we're all here in the same boat it seems
(grin).  I don't think we're gonna sink either!

CUL, Ruthie

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Internet: Ruthie.Hoffman@f223.n260.z1.fidonet.org




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Subject: RSD MEDLINE SEARCH
From: Ruthie.Hoffman@f223.n260.z1.fidonet.org (Ruthie Hoffman)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:260/223 - Interstellar System, Vine Valley NY


[This is from the Chronic Pain Conference]

 > Maybe,  he was kidding but my pain went up so high, the whole
 > left side of my head was killing me and I tried using the Tens
 > on it. It was rough. It wasn't a good idea.

You can stop or change the rythmn of your heart if you get the
electrode in the wrong place on you head, or so the instructions
with mine says.

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Internet: Ruthie.Hoffman@f223.n260.z1.fidonet.org




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Subject: Re: RSDS
From: Pam.Lyons@f210.n232.z1.fidonet.org (Pam Lyons)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:232/210 - The Lyons Den, Pekin IL


[This is from the Chronic Pain Conference]

Hi, my father-in-law has RSDS, & my mother-in-law knows a lot more
about it than I do.  Her name is Joyce.  I do know, however, that
amputation is NOT an answer for curing the pain.  If you would
leave a message we could get back to you with more info.  I know
they are wanting to start a support group for people who have
cronic pain.  I also know that they have been to see an RSDS
specialist in South Bend IN, and are going to Cleveland to see the
TOP OF THE LINE SPECIALIST IN AMERICA!!!  He has had this for three
years now and it too is in his foot and leg and unfortunatly is
spreading.  So HOPEFULLY they will be able to stop the cycle when
he goes to Cleveland.

                                        Hope to hear from ya!!!
                                                Pam

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Subject: Let's Get Started
From: Linda.Cummings@f34.n375.z1.fidonet.org (Linda Cummings)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:375/34


[This is from the Chronic Pain Conference]

In a message to Arthur Saus:

 > and what are the differences between this and tylenol 4?
 > <straight codine>

I don't *think* Tylenol #4 is straight codine, Jackie.  I get
switched from Vidodin to Tylenol #4 and back and forth so I won't
get used to either one and become dependent on them.  As I
understand it, Vicodin is stronger than Tylenol #4 (or so I've been
told by somebody).

Linda

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Subject: Re: Let's Get Started
From: Cindy.Barnes@f22.n375.z1.fidonet.org (Cindy Barnes)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:375/22 - Ken's BBS, Montgomery AL


[This is from the Chronic Pain Conference]

 >But 6 more weeks and I will be fine:)  They are going to replace my husbands
 >other hip in about 2 more months, then mebe he will feel like a human being
 >for a while again.   How many people in the echo have the same feelings
 >about the caregive aspect of things?   When the caregiver goes down?
 ><curious>

Even when I was at my worse with the pain level I was not supposed to be
less than what I had been. I still had to be Mom, Honey, Mrs Barnes, the
teacher, and a full-time student. I had to be up at 5:45am to get the kids
off to school, clean the house, go to work if called, buy the gorceries, pay
the bills, run the errands, etc. This family would collapse if I were to be
hospitalized for any length of time. Ken's job keeps him busy with TDY's,
reports, etc. He comes home and all he wants is for me to fix dinner and the
house to be cleaned.

It wasn't until I had the mylogram in June and the doctor said surgery for
the next day that Ken realized just how serious a problem a had with my
back. It kind of scared him. Now that the surgery is over and the pain level
is down a considerable amount, he is back to before. He has forgotte that I
have limits now as to what I can do. He got upset one day because I told him
I couldn't go with him and the boys to the lake to ride around in the boat.
I had to explain to him what the bumping around in the water could do to my
back since the vertabrae haven't fused together yet.

The boys are just as bad. Mom is up and walking so naturally she can do
everything they want her to do. They are learning that I can't, but it is a
slow process. I guess I will have to be patient with them until they really
understand what is involved in the problems I have with my back.

Does this answer your question about others and caretaking? (grin)

Cindy

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Subject: Re: Pain
From: Mary.Frost@p0.f41.n147.z1.fidonet.org (Mary Frost)
Organization: FidoNet node 1:147/41.0 - American SITE ADANe, Norman OK


[This is from the Chronic Pain Conference]

 -=> Quoting Nadine Thomas to Mary Frost <=-

 NT> Hello Mary....
 NT> I just happened to be reading the echo and saw your post quoted by
 NT> someone. I wanted to say that one of the NON-addictive pain medications
 NT> that does work is called Toridal (not sure on the spelling).

Nadine, Thanks so much for writing.  I have heard of Toridal, but have never
had it.  Do you administer it yourself?  I feel like I need to go to
a doctor who is more willing to work with me.  Just the thought of
going through all the evaluation, tests, false hopes that something
can help - is too much right now.  I am going to have surgery on my
right elbow and wrist on the same nerve that runs by the funny bone
and at the wrist below the little finger and next finger.  It is
pinched at both areas.  A few months later the nerve below the thumb
will have surgery and the thumb joint is deteriorated and will have
to be repaired or a new joint made.

I did not realize at first that "deteriorated joint" meant arthritis.
I am 43 and feel like this is happening much too young!  This surgery
is on my right hand and I am right-handed.  This is going to be
extremely difficult since I am already limited in what I can do
because of my back.  I love to cross stitch and crochet.  I also have
taken violin for two years.  This will have to be on hold for awhile.
I will probably use the computer even more.

When I asked the doctor if I would be able to play the violin after
surgery, he thought I was joking!  Remember the old joke that the man
asks the doctor if he will be able to play the piano after surgery.
The doctor asks if he could play before - he answers no. {g}  It does
help to laugh, doesn't it?

I will keep in touch with you and let me know how you are doing.
Thanks for your message, it really does help.

Mary Frost

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                                ******

                  End of Issue # 2955 of the Handicap Digest

                                ******
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU