From: goehring@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Scott Goehring)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: MORALITY IN GENERAL...
Date: 16 Apr 92 17:56:09 GMT
	<1992Apr15.000627.25549@en.ecn.purdue.edu>
	<MIB.92Apr15100626@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu>
	<1992Apr16.105303.12969@en.ecn.purdue.edu>
Reply-To: goehring@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Distribution: na
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center

muehlhau@en.ecn.purdue.edu (John Muehlhausen) writes:

>mib@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Michael I Bushnell) writes:

>>Basically, it comes down to this: if I take steps to avoid
>>pregnancy, STD's, and emotional scarring, and none of them in fact
>>result, does that make sexual promiscuity OK?  If not, then you have
>>not yet answered the question about why it is harmful.

[I will deal with the content of this non-answer.  Doing so does not
acknowledge that Mr. Muehlhausen has answered the question; I would
appreciate it if Mr. Muehlhausen would answer the questions posed to
him instead of evading them by jaunting off into "God's plan for
life".]

>God has a plan for each of our lives.

Am I incapable of forming my own plan for my life?

>We are happiest if we live within that plan, because it is in
>fulfillment of our very existence.

I would personally find it much more fulfilling to formulate my own
life plan than to meekly follow the orders of another.  Any happiness
which arises from the latter is probably artificial.

>On the larger scale, God _has_ made what is inherently "right" and
>"wrong" evident in all creation and has placed it on each man's
>heart.

Really.  I've asked you to justify this assertation before, as well as
the assertation that there exist absolute right and wrong.

>So why do we need the Bible?  As people rationalize and justify
>activities which they at first know are not in God's plan for their
>life (i.e. sin), they become hardened to what is right and wrong and
>can no longer distinguish between the "grey" and the good.  This
>turns into a viscious cycle, and pretty soon everything is grey and
>there are no absolutes.

I find it more reasonable to believe that there never were absolutes
in the first place, and that the invented concepts of "absolute good"
and "absolute evil" are merely that, inventions; oil for the
consciences of those who are unable to deal with the fact that few if
any situations have clear solutions.  All actions harm some and
benefit others.  It is impossible to define, in advance, what actions
are "good" or "evil"; we can only tell afterwards based on what
happens.  So, instead, in each and every situation we must use our
intelligence, intuition, experience, and wisdom to take due caution to
avoid unavoidable negative consequences, and to minimize the
unavoidable ones.  It is impossible for us to do this if we force
ourselves to follow a strict code of behavior which leaves no room for
consideration.

>This group is good evidence of this phenomena.

Uh huh.

>By inspiring various individuals to pen his _really real_ plan for
>mankind, God has (among many other important aspects) given us a rock
>on which to build our faith, so that we can _know_ what He desires
>without the individual "hardening of the heart" controlling our lives
>and working against the "new man" which we, as Christians, should be
>constantly striving for.

This is another thing about Christian rhetoric that irritates me: the
continual insistence that man is worthless, incapable of good on his
own.  Why Christians insist on having such negative feelings about
themselves is beyond me; I certainly want nothing to do with a
religion that insists that I am, by myself, little better than pond
scum.

>For as we all know deep down inside, but maybe have forgotten (by
>choice?), freedom in _not_ the ability to do what you want - rather
>the ability to _joyfully_ do what you _know_ is right...  

Each man has a responsibility to all other of his (and her) kind to
avoid doing harm to his fellows whenever possible.  However, it is not
necessary to invoke divine beings to justify this responsibility.

>If at this point you are saying to yourself that your own notions are
>the final authority, just ask yourself about the times when you have
>felt less than joyful _regardless_ of the situation.

That's because sometimes it is necessary to cause some harm to prevent
a greater harm.  Also, sometimes harm will occur despite our best
efforts to prevent it.  Those who can understand this and learn from
such situations to aid in their efforts to prevent further harm are
wise; those who instead attempt to evade such situations by blaming
the harm on divine (or infernal) beings are cowardly.

>If these times exist (I know they do for me), I think you will find
>them firmly rooted in self-reliance and the inherent trust humans
>have in their fallible selves.

They arise, because we are human.  Denying our own humanity is
foolish.  Denying negative emotions is foolish.  Without negatives,
there can be no positives.

>Lets face it - we _need_ the Bible!

Why?

>I cannot express how dissapointed I am to see so many of God's own
>turning away from the most precious gift He has given us next to
>Jesus Himself...

I would appreciate it if you would stop assigning ownership of myself
to nonexistent beings.
--
The fact is, some religions try to stamp out any religion or culture that
don't treat sex the same way they do.  Those are most often the shame and sin
based religions that teach we are separate from divinity as opposed to having
divinity within us.  -- William Turnbow (williamt@athena.Eng.Sun.COM)