From: bwc@waikato.ac.nz (Ug!)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.acorn
Subject: <None>
Date: 24 Aug 92 13:24:07 +1200
Organization: Vooniersity fo Kaiwato

Malcolm Lithgow writes:
> ...  To solve this, the development environment(s) for an OS should include
> libraries of common data structures (standard arrays, matrices,
> associative arrays, tagged tables, lists, stacks, text buffers, draw
> buffers, frame buffers, etc.) and these libraries should include
> optimized VM code, which can make use of the knowledge of the behaviour
> of the data. Also, the compiled code itself should also have its own VM
> manager, which can make use of information generated at, or after,
> compile time.

Yeah yeah yeah!  So when are you going to write it?

> Problems you may raise:
> 
> This makes the libraries non-portable. Big deal! Look at libc for UNIX,
> it is very non-portable already. For a quick port, you could base all
> your library code on the array library, and use it's simple (UNIX-style)
> VM. For a better port, you get better results.

Virtual memory should always be trageted to a particular machine/OS com-
bination, otherwise performance is god-awful!

> The several different VM managers take up valuable memory. True, they
> each consume memory, but there is no need for them to be very large, and
> they should be able to share a lot of code, if written properly. And they
> should be shared libraries. I think the trade-off would be worth it.

I think with shared libraries, it wouldn't be a problem at all.  (lets face
it -- most of the Archimedes OS simply amounts to shared libraries...)

>>4. Unix become a industrial standart for higher range computers.
>>   Compared with UNIX is RISCOS very exotic ...
> 
> So what?

Actually, I would tend to disagree with the orginal statement.  I don't think
RiscOS is very exotic at all -- in many respects, it's quite similar to OS/2.

If you want exotic, try PICK, or some of Xerox's stuff, or even the Plan 9
that Malcolm mentioned earlier.

> Other than the fact that UNIX *has not* become a standard for any type of
> computer (have you ever tried to port programs from one version of UNIX
> to another, or examined the complexity added to free packages to make
> them more portable?), what benefit does UNIX being a standard give you?

Hmm.  They're working on that (although whether or not they will succeed is
yet another matter), especially with POSIX and System V.  Also Binary
compilers is quite interesting...

> If you want to stick to *real* standards then we should all be using MVS,
> or VMS for smaller systems (or DOS for unusable systems).

Please don't call VMS a real operating system.  It's as Kludgy as hell!

>>There are a lot of advantages to have UNIX on every platform (maybe this is 
>>not true on the Commodore C64 ...)
> 
> Yeah? Name one.

POSIX compilance.  (of course, how much of an advantage this is I'm not sure)
(This is a joke, by the way, in case you hadn't realised ;-}  )

> What the industry should be striving for (and, to my utter disgust,
> isn't) is standard data formats between all applications across all
> platforms. (Standard communication protocols are, thank goodness, being
> addressed.)

How?  TCP/IP?  Doesn't go far enough.  ISO OSI?  Hah!  Still, I supose that
they are being addressed, just not terribly effectively in my opinion.

I don't care abut standard data formats, as long as they can be translated
transparently.  Of course, the best way to acheive this would be by standard
data formats...

> UNIX is a nice software development environment. Nothing more. But even
> at that I think RISC OS is better.

Hmm.  Really?  Two of the best development environments I've seen are OS/2 2,
and NeXT Step.  RiscOS and Unix would be a close third (equal).  The only
thing I really miss from Unix on the Archimedes is a *real* filing system.
(although it would be nice to have some sort of standard on-line manual system
for the Arc, also).

All in all, I tend to agree.  Unix is not necessarily the answer.  However, it
would be nice to have some of the things like multi-threading (which aren't
necessary Unix) and better filing systems.  OS/2 and NeXT are much better then
Unix at this though.

The main problem though is that there is a big upsurgance in business for
'open systems', which are of course, Unix based.  Pity.

								Ug!