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Date:         Fri, 10 Apr 1992 12:30:51 EST
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      Re: Fruit or Act?
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU
              at Apr 9, 92 3:35 pm

>
>Ian responds to my question:
>>Vicky, in my opinion God placed the tree of knowledge in the garden as a test
>>for mankind.. He could have removed all possibility to sin, but he wants us
>>to love him out of our own free will..
>
>    He knew that they (we) were going to sin anyway.
>    He knew it!
>
God only KNEW because of his omniscience and foreknowledge.. Seeings as these
are two things that the human mind cannot comprehend, we should not get
hung up on them...

Yes he _KNEW_ They were going to sin, whilst at the same time giving them
the choice whether or not to..

The issue is the same when we talk about predestination in calvinism..
I believe they get so caught up with foreknowledge ect that they forget the
fact that God gave us a free will.. Yes God knew that you and I would accept
him before he created the world, but ALSO he has given us the opportunity
not to.. His FOREKNOWLEDGE DOES NOT DECIDE HIS ACTIONS is about the best
way I can describe it..


>>It was our disobeying of God that was the sin..
>
>    If it was just the _act_ that caused Adam and Eve to fall,
>    why did God so zealously guard the Tree of Life then?
>    It was the implication that the _fruit_ of this tree will
>    give eternal life to those who partake of it, isn't it?
>
I do not believe so... I believe that Adam and Eve would have lived forever
anyway if they had not fallen.


>    I know that I'm not very clear at what I'm trying to get at,
>    but bear with me for a while longer.  :-)
>
>    Vicky
>
Ok!..


*****************************************************************************
Ian Williams          			Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems         			Phone   : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia
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Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1992 12:28:00 CST
From:         "Darryl (The Other Brother) Johnson" <DJOHNSON@TCUCVMS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Two different questions

From: Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
correct.  Now do you understand why I, in fact, _do_ oppose not only
abortion, but capital punishment, war, and abortifacient forms of
contraception (such as the IUD and the morning after pill)?  You are
-----------------------------------------------------------------

I reply:
Yes, I do.  However, it is the rare Christian who will argue that
ALL forms of homicide are unjust.  Many feel that the killing of
a criminal who was convicted in a just trial is not only
permitted by God, but commanded.  Others feel that the defense of
one's ideals and family (and yes, often property) may at times
require the death of those who would attempt to destroy them.
Some Christians even feel that life does NOT begin at conception,
but at some later time (2 weeks, 1 month, 3 months, viability,
beating heart, brain waves, take your pick), where an abortifacient
would be legal PRIOR to that cutoff point.

So while for you, abortion = death = murder = capital punishment =
war etc., for others it does not.  Your pacifism is understandable,
and I would NOT question you if you were to define abortion as
simply the taking of a human life.  For most of us, we must be
more specific in our definition, because we have to show WHY
murder does NOT equal abortion does NOT equal war does NOT equal
capital punishment, and the definitions we use for each must make
that differentiation.

I\ /\ I\ I\ \/ I   Texas         "Treat the other man's faith
I/ )( I( I( /  I..  Christian      gently; it is all he has to believe
 DJohnson@tcucvms    University     with.  His mind was created for
 DJohnson@gamma.is.tcu.edu         his own thoughts, not yours or
  Big Ugly Signature (tm)         mine" -- Henry S. Haskins
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 08:18:00 EDT
Comments:     A VAX cluster with VMS V5.4-2, PMDF V3.2-19,
              JNET V3.5 & UCX V1.3A
From:         JHART@UMASSD.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Spiritual and physical death

>    I have a question:
>    When Adam and Eve sinned, they died a spiritual death.  Was
>    physical death a direct result of the Fall too?  Or were they
>    eventually gonna die anyways?
>
>    In Christ,
>    the list minor

        IMHO the death was their seperation from the close
fellowship they had
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Date:         Thu, 16 Apr 1992 15:18:52 EST
From:         carol nemec <YA67@FERRIS.BITNET>
Subject:      weather

    I just want to share this experience with you all.

    It's snowing here in Northampton.  In mid April.
    It is snowing.


    "I want Spring!"-Vicky

Thanks for sharing, Vicky!!  Just to let you know spring is
moving in your direction.  It's raining in Michigan....wish I
could box it up for you, Steve!
Carol...raining violets in Michigan!
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Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 15:56:32 EST
From:         John Ross <ROSSJB@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      ST morality results

These are not final, but here is a summary of what I've gotten in
response to my question as to the morality of watching Star Trek and
other forms of entertainment.

----------------- John Hart: ---------------------------------------

>        Phillippians 4:8 "Finally, brothers, whatever is true,
>whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever
>is admirable - if anything is excellent or praiseworthy - think
>about such things."  Does ST meet this standard for a Christian?

Good food for thought.  I am getting close to trashing the stuff.
------------------ Djohnson@tcucvms: -------------------------------

(Sorry, lost the header somewhere in the dusty
databank zone):

>"As long as you derive inner help and comfort from anything you
> should keep it.  If you were to give it up in a mood of self-
> sacrifice or out of a stern sense of duty, you would continue
> to want it back, and that unsatisfied want would make trouble
> for you.  ONLY give up a thing when you want some other condition
> so much that the thing no longer has any attraction for you, or
> when it seems to interfere with that which is more greatly
> desired" -- Ghandi

Excuse me?  I asked for Scriptural reasons... since when did
GHANDI replace the Bible?
------------------ Kerry:-------------------------------------------
>Christian metal bands say, 'I'm gonna do
>A B and C [also nasty things] to the DEVIL.'"  She doesn't think much of the
>difference, and I have to admit I am also disturbed by the violence mas-
>querading as spiritual warfare on some Christian albums (there I go again,

Depends on the frame of reference.  Most of my albums do not say
"I am gonna do A B C etc to the DEVIL."  Some songs on some of
the CDs say what God will do to the Devil.  Some pages of my bible
says the same.  I see no problem here.  Glorifying violence, of course,
is different, and I agree there.
------------------ T: ----------------------------------------------
>        If you feel that your st stuff is wrong for you then
>you should trash your stuff....my opinion is that you should not
>sell what you think is wrong.

Last night I ripped my Next Generation posters down.  I thought about
burning them so I could pollute the atmosphere, but decided against
it.  They're sitting in a trashbag (plastic) at home.  I'm wondering
if I can turn them into birdnest stuffing.  I haven't discarded
all my stuff (only the beginning), but the next generation posters
definitely have to go.  If God tells me to get rid of all of it, no
problem.  (Actually, from a financial standpoing, that hurts!)


Thank you all.  I am still looking for some more SCRIPTUAL support,
if you have any.

John
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Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1992 12:33:39 EST
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      Re: Punishment for committing abortion
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU
              Riolo" at Apr 8, 92 12:29 pm

>
>        This is an open question for you to think about.  I do not want to
>sound that I do not want to discuss on abortion but I have to manage my
>time and I am still thinking about issues relating to abortion.
>
>        If abortion is outlawed in a state or country, what kind of
>punishment will you want to give to a woman who has abortion, a doctor who
>performs abortion, and people who assist abortion?
>
>                                        Joseph P. Riolo
>                                        <riolo@pica.army.mil>
>

If a fetus is agreed to be a human life, then the fetus should have the same
rights of any other human being.. ie the right to life..

Abortionists are murderers straight and narrow.. Abortion Clinic workers
are accessories BEFORE the FACT.. As for the Mothers.. hmm.. thats a little
trickier.. Accessiories before the fact as well...

I am honestly sick to death of hearing the woefull chant "my body, my choice".
Its not only their body, but their babies body as well..
"my body, my choice not to get pregnant"....



*****************************************************************************
Ian Williams          			Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems         			Phone   : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia
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Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1992 01:20:06 EDT
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      for Thursday 9 April 1992
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET, BSTUDY-L@UTARLVM1.BITNET,
              IVCF-L@UBVM.BITNET

THURSDAY BEFORE PALM SUNDAY

O God, who hast called us to be thy children, and hast promised that
those who suffer with Christ will be heirs with him of thy glory:
Arm us with such trust in him that we may ask no rest from his
demands and have no fear in his service; through the same Jesus
Christ our Lord, who liveth and reigneth with thee and the Holy
Spirit, one God, for ever and ever.
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Date:         Thu, 16 Apr 1992 19:18:21 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Heterosexual risk

Darryl:
I must disagree.  In academia, I would be willing to bet that not only
could an old study be considered an increase of itself, but the author
would draw a lot of pretty pictures to prove it.  (And thank the XYZ
Foundation for the 1.5 billion dollar grant it took to do the study--
which tops out at 12 pages.)  Just a bit cynical about folks who do
what I do.
          Love INC,
                   ---Kerry
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Date:         Tue, 7 Apr 1992 17:42:39 EDT
From:         "Joseph P. Riolo" <riolo@COR4.PICA.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: Re: JW Translation
X-To:         Practical Christian Life <CHRISTIA@asuvm.inre.asu.edu>
X-cc:         riolo@PICA.ARMY.MIL

Michael,

      It seems that you have shifted the focus of the discussion from
translation to the history of JW.  May I ask you why?  I do not know if
I want to continue discussion about history.  You may want to post
information but I do not know if I will respond to them.  So, it is
your decision.

      Meanwhile, shalom...

                                        Joseph P. Riolo
                                        <riolo@pica.army.mil>
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Date:         Mon, 13 Apr 1992 10:58:40 EDT
From:         Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Prayer request

My brother in law will undergo back surgery later this week.  Please
pray for his complete recovery and for the sucess of the operation
in correcting a continuing painful back condition.

Marty Helgesen
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Date:         Tue, 14 Apr 1992 03:02:49 EDT
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      for Tues 14 April 1992
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET, BSTUDY-L@UTARLVM1.BITNET,
              IVCF-L@UBVM.BITNET

FOR HOLY WEEK

Assist us mercifully with thy help,
O Lord God of our salvation,
that we may enter with joy
upon the contemplation of those mighty acts
whereby thou hast given unto us life and immortality,
Through Jesus Christ our Lord.

      FOR THE TUESDAY BEFORE EASTER

      READING: Isaiah 49:1-6
      (God's salvation extends beyond Israel
      to the ends of the earth.)

      PSALM 71:1-12
      ("My accusers mock me; deliver me, O LORD.")

      EPISTLE: 1 Corinthians 1:18-31
      (God works His purposes through lowly instruments,
      despised by the world.)

      THE HOLY GOSPEL: John 12:37-38,42-50
      (Jesus warns his hearers that they must choose whether to
      believe him or reject him.)

O God,
who by the passion of thy blessed Son
didst make an instrument of shameful death
to be unto us the means of life:
Grant us so to glory in the cross of Christ,
that we may gladly suffer shame and loss
for the sake of thy Son our Savior Jesus Christ,
who liveth and reigneth with thee and the Holy Spirit,
one God, for ever and ever.
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Date:         Sat, 11 Apr 1992 22:02:00 EST
From:         "Jeff Sinatra" <BSC92SPA18@RCNVMS.RCN.MASS.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Jeff Sinatra and spiritual death...
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU

The Nuzz,
N>While man was created in the image of God, in holiness and in purity, man
N>fell and did not remain in the image and likeness of God.

The image of God, is an expression of God.  Our very identity reflects God--God
is Spirit and we are spiritual, God is Love and we are living, God is eternal
Life and we are living.  There is a unity that exists between God and man that
absolutely nothing can destroy--"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor
life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor
things to come, Nor hight, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to
separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."(Rom 8:38)
The fall is a belief that somehow we are seperate from God, that somehow we
can act independently of God--be seperate from God.  The concept of "the fall"
was exactly what Christ Jesus came to destroy in order to redeem the sinners.
By understanding our at-one-ment with God through the teachings and
demonstrations of Christ Jesus, we gain dominion over "...the law of sin and
death."(Rom. 8:2)--the false beliefs that accompany mortality.  Mrs. Eddy
writes of this "atonement" when she states, "Atonement is the exemplification
of man's unity with God, whereby man reflects divine Truth, Life, and Love.
Jesus of Nazareth taught and demonstrated man's oneness with the Father, and
for this we owe him endless homage.  His mission was both individual and
collective.  He did life's work aright not only in justice to himself, but in
mercy to mortals,--to show them how to do theirs, but not to do it for them nor
to relieve them of a single responsibility." _Science_and _Health_ P. 18
The belief that there is such a thing as "spiritual death" is absurd, for this
would mean that a part of God could die.  The spiritual man is at-one with God,
a reflection of God, and to argue that this spiritual nature could somehow
die is to say that part of the sun could somehow stop shining--that eternal
Life could somehow stop living, or divine love could somehow stop loving.

				love,
				  Jeff Sinatra
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Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 09:10:00 -0400
From:         Lora Harris <LHARRIS@UPEI.CA>
Subject:      Silly Canadian song as promised

On request, here is the silly Canadian patriotism song I promised...

(This is in the style of a campy song and dance number. You have to imagine
tap-dance steps at the end of every line, like this ...
"It all began (tappity-tap-ta-tap-ta-tap)...")

Charlottetown

It all began
without the sound of war
without a cry of battle
without the cannon's roar.
Without the outstretched sword (outstreched sword),
But with an outstretched hand (outstretched hand),
They just sat down in Charlottetown,
They just sat down in Charlottetown,
They just sat down in Charlottetown and built themselves a land.

It all came true,
Without a trumpet call,
Without a song of freedom,
Without a flag at all,
Without a mighty charge (mighty change),
Without a gallant stand (gallant stand),
They just sat down in Charlottetown,
They just sat down in Charlottetown,
They just sat down in Charlottetown and built themselves a land.

And what a wonderful day that was in history,
What a day when this mighty nation came to be,
It was a day of peace (day of peace),
and not a day of strife (day of strife),
And so the way of peace (way of peace),
became our way of life.
And so it all began (it began),
and it was really grand (really grand).
They just sat down in Charlottetown,
They just sat down in Charlottetown,
They just sat down in Charlottetown and built themselves a mighty land.

                        Johnny Wayne

(The ironic part of it all is that when these men sat down in Charlottetown,
PEI., to draft up the new land of Canada, PEI didn't join!  Funny how they
never mention that here...)    :^)                      Lora
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Date:         Wed, 15 Apr 1992 09:48:12 EDT
From:         Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Contraception/abortion

Kurt,

Others have already answered most of your questions.  They are not
Catholics, but opposition to abortion is not limited to the Catholic
Church.  I will just add that the Catholic Church teaches that all
true contraceptives are against the will of God.  Because they pre-
vent conception they do not kill a human being, but they are a misuse
of God's gift of sex.  If a technique of birth control does not
prevent conception but induces an early abortion then it is not a
contraceptive, not even if many people call it a contraceptive.  It
is an abortifacient and is as wrong as other, later abortions.

Marty Helgesen
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Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1992 09:59:01 EDT
From:         Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Prayer Suggestion
              9 Apr 1992 21:47:04 -0800 from <whchen@CS.NTHU.EDU.TW>

Allen,
I do not have detailed knowledge about the British parties.  That's why
I suggested prayer that God will enlighted the British voters to choose
the "best possible candidates."  He knows who the best possible
candidates are.
Marty Helgesen
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Original_To:  CHRISTIA
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1992 12:07:00 CST
From:         GUILLERMO RODRIGUEZ HERNANDEZ <A16905@ITESO.BITNET>
Subject:      Mary

Wolfgang and all,

I have to make tome points clear about this subject :

1. In spanish 'mediation' and 'intersesion' are not all that different, so
i used as the same, of course Christ is the ONE mediators and all saints
(including Virgin Mary, you and me) are intersesors.

2. About the miracle of Cana, well, yes, of course Jesus could have done
it by Himself, He was and is and will be God forever, the case is that things
did happened that way, i mean, in the plan of God it was stated that Mary would
pray Jesus to do it and, although Jesus, as a man didn't tink it was the best,
He did it. Mary won't get God doing something against His will, but she can
help us to pray so God gives us something that He wants to give us but He needs
us to pray for.

3. Our indian cultures were not distroyed by the spanish as the english
distriyed american indians, so we have a mixture of cultures, some 'worship'
to images, as many protestants see it, is a remanent of this indian culture,
it is a 'mixture of cultures' we can see an example of this mixture when Paul
talked about the 'unknown God' in Athens, sure our Lord was not that unknown
God, but Christians are supposed to give the non-beleivers faith, not culture,
so that practices that you condem are part of my people's culture you can't
take it away, you can't distroy it.

4. Pesonally, Mary has been a great friend to me, an excelent mother and model
of christianity ('I am the slave of the Lord') whatever you say, whatever you
believe, most of catholics have LIVED this relationship, your words will always
sound empty and cold to us if you say 'oh no, don't pray to her, it is sinful,
idolatric, satanic.....' very easy to say words, but very hard to distroy a
culture and a way to live christianism.

Shalom,
Memo. (Still NOMAIL)

HAPPY EASTER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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