HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lynch@ils.nwu.EDU (Richard Lynch)
Subject: Re: Mythopoetic ritual (a possibly Very Weird topic)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: The Institute for the Learning Sciences
Date: 12 Jan 93 21:56:59 GMT

In article <1993Jan5.040645.3745@Princeton.EDU> Mutant for Hire <mfterman@phoenix.princeton.EDU> writes:
>While I agree that just because another culture practices a certain
>ritual does not mean that ritual has an intrinsic value and should be
>adopted by our society, I do feel that the concepts of initiation
>rituals should be looked into more deeply. The fact that so many
>different cultures came up with this social ritual shows to me that
>there is some sort of need being fufilled here. It is interesting to
>note that many gangs have their own brands of initiation.
>
>Women have a very visible transition from child to adult. Men lack
>that sort of event, and need to create something to mark that sort of
>change.

I'm not sure exactly which visible transition [and who's doing the
viewing] you refer to, but men have just as many changes to go
through: voice changes, hair growth, nocturnal emissions, etc.

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From: andyw@meaddata.COM (Andy Welter)
Subject: Re: Women's and men's safety
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Reply-To: andyw@meaddata.COM
Organization: Mead Data Central, Dayton OH
Date: 7 Jan 93 21:46:59 GMT

In article 2uy@panix.com, mara@panix.COM (Mara Chibnik) writes:
>andyw@meaddata.COM mentioned whitewater rafting and skydiving to
>

<stuff deleted>

>I didn't focus on it either (which makes me think it's not
>necessarily a male thing).  It's not that I don't see the
>difference-- and I thought that Janis made an excellent point about
>the difference between choosing to participate in a sport and
>retrieving her car across a dark parking lot.  (At least, I think it
>was Janis.)
>
>But I do believe that there is interesting material to consider in
>the differences between how we (as men or as women) are taught to
>consider danger.  I think that the process that discourages a woman
>from taking up the sport of bungee jumping is connected to the
>process of learning and not-learning that make her particularly
>vulnerable in the dark parking lot.  (Part of that vulnerability, of
>course, is the expectation on the part of an attacker that she will
>not know how to handle herself.)
>
>I don't think that this is the whole issue, of course.  I live
>with a man who is much more timid than I am about all sorts of
>recreational dangers, and who is much less timid than I about being
>alone on the streets of NYC after dark.

Thank you thank you thank you... I am not the only one who understood
what I was trying to say!!!

Your last comments are exactly the kind of discusion I was trying to
spark. (apparently in a rather ineffective way)

Ok, so according to your posting, you don't mind the odd risk in
various sports, but may hesitate to wander around NYC at night alone.

Some wariness about NYC after dark is just good sense for man or
woman...  as a woman it makes good sense to be even more wary.  Since
you seem to be more risk tolerant than average in regard to sports,
Question is, do you seem to be less wary about being out after dark
than other women you know?

If you are less wary than other women you know, why do you think that
is?  Do you think that this difference is due to you being more
comfortable with risky situations?  Or is it that maybe you know you
would be able defend yourself in many situations?

If you aren't any less wary than other women you know, why doesn't
your tolerance of sporting risks carry over to your attitude about
safety on the streets?


|Andrew Welter	     |  All views are mine and not |      (513) 865-6822
|Mead Data Central   |    that of my employer      |      pd&o-ps-ts-dsp
|P.O. Box 933        |                             |     andyw@meaddata.com
|Dayton, Ohio  45401 |          	           | ...!uunet!meaddata!andyw


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From: aap@wam.umd.EDU (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas)
Subject: Re: Pornography and values
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: 4 Jan 93 19:45:35 GMT

In article <38029@uflorida.cis.ufl.edu> djohns@elm.circa.ufl.EDU ("David A. Johns") writes:
>One interesting aspect of this debate about pornography is that
>*interest* in pornography, in our society, at least, is primarily
>male.  This leaves women in the enviable position of having nothing to
>lose in the battle to eliminate it.

Even if men are more interested than women in pornography, women are
the ones who suffer the consequences.  Begining from the ideological
content of pornographic material, the way women are used on them, and
the effects that pornographic material generates on men who watched
it, we can see that women do have an interest in pornography, and they
have something to loose and something to win on this matter.


AAP

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From: randy@ms.uky.edu (Randy Appleton)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Someone Convince Me
Date: 10 Jan 1993 17:37:19 GMT
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences
Distribution: world
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Many people here seem to feel that pornogrophy harms women.   I've
never agreed with this in part because I've never understood the
arguments involved.  I've found following the debate on this subject
in this group unenlightening.

I would like someone to please send me an article that would convince
me in a scholorly and logical way that porn does have this effect.
Alternativly, I would like someone to please send me a reference that
I could look up at the local public library.

Many thanks
Randy


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Xref: sparky soc.feminism:3168 news.answers:5064
From: kathryn@Apple.COM (Kathryn Vandiver)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Mid-30s men
Date: 8 Jan 1993 22:26:57 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, CA
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In article <1iiu91$hbl@agate.berkeley.edu> dsoconne@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>
>A couple of comments: One, I take it you are under the age of 35
>(my age, btw). Two, obviously these two men do not feel `compelled'
>to get married -- your post shows that. 
>

No, I'm in my mid to late 30's as well. Neither man  feels compelled as
you stated. But one of them says he 'envisioned' himself to be  
married with children in his early 30s.

>
>I doubt it, but your post brings up some interesting points. The 
>first is that you seem to buy in to the notion that there is something
>strange, perhaps unusual about a mid-30's heterosexual man who is
>`never-married', or perhaps `pre-marital'.

Actually, I never intended to imply that there is something strange or
unusual for men who have never married. As I stated at the beginning of
my posting, I've only met a few men like this. My interest was more 
directed at the two men I mentioned.  Most of my male friends who are this
age and un-married seem to be perfectly happy with  their chosen lifestyle.  

>
>This attitude perpetuated by the dominant culture, says that people
>are dangerous, or at least not-normal unless they are partnered. The
>further assumption is that if someone isn't partnered, they want to
>be.

As for norms of society, you may be right, but my personal conviction is that 
I disagree. I believe that all that matters in life is what makes each
individual happy. Whether single, married, gay, having affairs or many
lovers... all that matters is if that individual is happy with their 
lifestyle and themselves. One of my Uncles chose to stay single and appears 
to love his life and has many wonderful adventures to share with us who may 
be burdened by partnership or children. 

>
>Finally, perhaps some people do intend to get married "some day", but
>you know, they, uh, never quite get around to it. People `do' have
>biological clocks, I think.

Again, it's a shame that society makes us feel this way. Why are be brought
up with the notion that we will marry someday? Instead, we should raise 
our children and encourage each other to be independent and happy. That way, 
when ( or if) love and partnership comes along, it becomes an option 
instead of something that is 'suppose' to happen.  

kc. 


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From: Chris.Varnam@lambada.oit.unc.EDU (Chris Varnam)
Subject: Woolf & Wollstonecraft connection?
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: University of North Carolina Extended Bulletin Board Service
Date: 12 Jan 93 22:39:33 GMT

Hello.
While reading Wollstonecraft's novel _The Wrongs of Woman_, I came
across the following:

"he can rob her with impunity...and the laws of her country - if women
have a country - offer her no protection"
p 149. _The Works of Mary Wollstonecraft. vol 1 ed. J. Todd & M. Butler.
London:  William Pickering. 1989.

This reminded me of the next following, which is attributed to Virgina
Woolf:

"As a woman I have no country.  As a woman I want no country.  As a
woman my country is the whole world"

Unfortunely, the best source i've come up for this is "Amanda's button"

It doesn't come from her novels nor is it listed in any quote books
i've looked through, including several women-only sets.

Can any one help me to find a source?  I would like to know the
context since i am wondering if the later comment is a reflection
against the earlier.

please email if appropriate
cheers, chris


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Xref: sparky soc.feminism:3165 news.answers:5061
From: khamer@seattleu.EDU (Little Kenny Hamer)
Subject: Re: Mid-30s men
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: Seattle University
Date: 12 Jan 93 22:26:07 GMT

[Note from moderator: this topic is wandering a bit; if
followups don't pull feminism back in, they should go
to soc.couples.  --CTM]

From article <1iiq10$gk7@agate.berkeley.edu>, by kathryn@Apple.COM (Kathryn Vandiver):
>
> What ever happened to love and passion?  Why do these to guys feel
> so compeled to 'up and marry' any 'suitable' woman? For crying-out-
> loud, it's not like we live in the wild-west of the 1800's where
> people married for convenience. It just seems so strange to me that
> they think friendship can create marriage.  I know that many couples
> loose passion and all for each other after marriage, but usually
> when you decide to marry there is a thread of love somewhere.

Love and marriage have little to do with one another.  Marriage is
about pardtnership, and friendship.  Love is also a part of friendship
(at least in my lexicon).

I cannot speculate on the motivations of these men who you mention, I
can only speak of my experience.  We do live in an economic wild west
where marriage may in part be for convenience.  Certainly if children
are involved two incomes can provide better than one.  That is not to
say that all single mothers should run out and get married, but *if* I
were a single mother and someone whose company I enjoyed and whose
friendship was valuable to me (and whom I was attracted to) wanted to
get married, the fact that it would make things easier would be *a*
point of thought.

I am planning marriage ( and she wants to get married too, and we
don't have kids) and I have spent sleepless nights worrying if we can
afford a house, how to set money aside for children, how she and I
will be able to find jobs.  I love her, and she loves me, but if we
were not a stable, uplifting partnership then that might not be enough
to keep us together.  I have a friend who is also male, and he and I
have upon occasion half-seriously discussed getting "married".  It's
got nothing to do with sexual passion (he and I are straight) but with
friendship.  He is a wonderful roommate, helpful, and he and I look
out for one another.  We both hold each other up when the world is
dragging us down.

Marriage is about a promise to attempt lifelong partnership.  Love and
passion may be a part of it, but those can be had without getting
marriage.

Mabye these men are sick of "passion" and all the emotional storms it
can bring.  Mabye they want a partner.

Or mabye they are just jerks who feel sorry for their women friends
and want to get laid.  But its silly to get married if that is all you
want.

-Ken

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From: BARANSKI@veamf1.nusc.navy.MIL (Jim Baranski)
Subject: Re: Pornography and values
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: Lanman Hill, Norwich CT
Date: 12 Jan 93 22:06:09 GMT

The thing that I think is attractive to people in Pornography, both
Penthouse etc, and Harliquin is that they portray a person who 'wants
you'.  In sex pornography a woman is typically portrayed as wanting
sex with the male reader.  Harliquin, as well as any romance book
portrays a man whom the woman character (& reader) 'convinces' to want
her.

Certainly Porn objectifies people...  Any fiction does.  Certainly
some Porn portrays less then healthy peer relationships, as do many
fiction stories.  Yet some (albeit very little) Porn is worth
watching, as long as you don't mistake the representation for the
thing.

Oddly enough, Porn by women doesn't seem to be much different...  But
it is in demand...

Jim.

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From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Women and Men's Safety
Date: 8 Jan 1993 02:43:08 GMT
Organization: University of California, Irvine
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In article <1iijt4INNf1j@agate.berkeley.edu> gds@FICUS.CS.UCLA.EDU (Greg Skinner) writes:
<In article <1iib3aINN9k3@agate.berkeley.edu> cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu writes:
<>Imagine how that sounds to a rape victim.  "Hell, *I* didn't do it."
<>All that she's been through, all that she fears, and you address it by
<>saying, "Not MY problem."  It is ALL of our problem!  *I* didn't make
<>this mess either, but if we don't start taking some damned personal
<>responsibility instead of just yelling "not my job" we're just going to
<>leave this mess to our grandchildren to clean up.  
<
<By your own words then, you must (if you do not already)
<
<* keep a respectable distance (e.g. across the street) from men who
<  are approaching you late at night 
<* exhort all women to do likewise
<
<for the sake of the many men who have been sexually abused, mugged,
<etc. by women.

Percentages.  How many times does this happen?  I keep a distance from
EVERYONE at night.  The men ain't scared of me.

Janis C.




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From: kathryn@Apple.COM (Kathryn Vandiver)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Mid-30s men
Date: 8 Jan 1993 02:48:00 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, CA
Distribution: world
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okay, okay.... Why is it that every now and then I meet a mid-30's 
man who thinks he's going to marry the poor unmarried woman.

In the last two months, I have met two men both unmarried and in their 
later 30s (38 and 37).  At one point or another, each one has 
confided in me that there is a woman in their life that they are close
friends with.  One of the men is rather shy and due to his mostly
intraverted nature, hasn't asked a woman out for about 10 years.  Yet,
he thinks that he can up and marry a young female friend of his
grandmothers as if it is HIS CHOICE to decide this. Incidentally, she
is about 4 years his junior. 

The other man is the same way. He is attracted to a woman about his
same age who has two young teenage children. She was married for 10
years and now divorced. He acts as if he can 'up and marry' her anytime
HE feels like it. 

It seems to me that both guys have the idea that they are thinking  
that they can marry any unmarried woman to 'save her' from being 
single.  Maybe the divorced woman likes being on her own after so 
many years. Maybe the grandmothers female friend has her eye on 
someone else? Maybe they are trying to fit into some stereotype
themselves where they feel complelled to be married? 

What ever happened to love and passion?  Why do these to guys feel
so compeled to 'up and marry' any 'suitable' woman? For crying-out-
loud, it's not like we live in the wild-west of the 1800's where 
people married for convenience. It just seems so strange to me that
they think friendship can create marriage.  I know that many couples
loose passion and all for each other after marriage, but usually
when you decide to marry there is a thread of love somewhere.

My brother is in his mid-30's and still single. I've never heard 
his breath ideas that he would marry like this. He's still looking
for passion and love.  Are these other men being tormented by
their mothers to find wives???? 

comments, flames, insights?
kc. 



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From: wetware.com!drieux@ub-gate.ub.COM ("drieux, just drieux")
Subject: Daughter of Women In Combat....
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: Castle WetWare Philosopher and Sniper
Date: 6 Jan 93 20:10:31 GMT

Last time I looked, and I will concede that this was
some ten years ago, women made up a disproportionately
large segment of the contract hitters.[1]

Has the rise of Feminism changed all of this?

Or are men still leaving themselves open to being
assasinated by women merely as they are too stoopid
to presume that a woman could be on contract?


ciao
drieux

[1] eg: more of them made the top ten that year,
than a general distribution would normally allow
for the traditional Women in Men's work would suggest.

ObUnionLabel: Folks, when you consider getting someone snuffed,
try to remember to hire a Decent Contractor. Would you want to
hire just any shade tree mechanic?


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Modern Day Problems:

"lets get linear, I want to get linear, linear"
				Olivia Newton Algegra

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From: chris@psych.toronto.edu (Chris Hitchcock)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Women's and men's safety
Date: 7 Jan 1993 19:22:06 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Psychology, University of Toronto
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In article <1id4svINNbu0@agate.berkeley.edu> andyw@meaddata.com writes:
>
>Society as a whole has to work on making the streets safer.  But women
>who are mad because men can go out at night and not be afraid have to
>realize that some of that difference is simply a difference in attitude.

Actually, I sometimes view this from the opposite perspective. Yes, there's
a difference in attitude; women are far more terrified to go out at night
than men. We've been told variants on "good girls don't" for years, the
most powerful of which is "If you go out at night, and you get raped,
you asked for it, we will question your integrity and morality, and your
social standing will fall. We may deplore it, but we will also be disgusted
with you, and it's you who will walk around branded as "the one who was raped".

The academic within me often wonders whether women are less often victims
of public violence because they control their own behaviour (ie, if women
went out as often as men do, they would be attacked as or more often), or
whether the risk of public violence is exaggerated in the interest of
social control which benefits parents, relatives and husbands.

If women *do* have an exaggerated perception of risk, I don't think it's
one we have invented on our own. There is a stock media image of a terrified
helpless women, teetering on heels, hobbled by a tight skirt, backing helplessly
away from an attacker. And my mother's response to that Jody Foster film
a while back? "The first thing I would ask you girls if that happened to you
is 'What were you doing there?'".  I've taken self-defense (Wen-do; a great
course for mind and body, preparing you to defend yourself with what you have
now), I do take calculated risks, keeping my head up, looking like I would 
be hard to attack. But there's still the feeling that I particularly am
at risk. 

And finally, perhaps men's purported attraction to risk, and horror/terror
films is because women don't need to pay for it. We can be terrified any
time we want, just by going for a walk at night. :-|

Chris.



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University of Toronto      in my new life: clh@vax.ox.ac.uk                 
Toronto, Ontario          UseNet:  I only read it for the  
CANADA  M5S 1A1                         .signatures                         


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