HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Kelly Martin)
Subject: Re: Orientation/Identity
Reply-To: scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Organization: Gender Anarchists United
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 17:12:19 GMT

ag055@yfn.ysu.edu (Ward Chanley) writes:

>Girl, no one has ever accused me of logical thought!

of course not.  logical thought is a masculine trait (half smirk).

>Issues relating to gender identity sometimes are difficult to
>articulate in a culture that depends on fixed gender identity and
>fixed gender role.

truly.  i have been asked repeatedly to explain why i'm transsexual
and why i'm lesbian (or will be, afterwards).  i can't.  i have NO
IDEA why.  all i know is that i am.

>On the issue of labeling your orientation, that can be rather
>confusing at times since (again) our culture defines "acceptable"
>orientations as a function of gender role (men are "supposed" to
>sleep with women), and any attempt to carve out an identity outside
>of the gender norm inevitably brings a conflict in terms of
>reconciling one's orientation with the morals of the dominant
>culture.

labels are so confusing.  on one hand, i'm straight because i
primarily have sexual relations with a person of the opposite
morphology.  however, my present morphology is not my preferred
morphology.  will my preference change after SRS?  no, just the label
for it...

on the other hand, i'm something odd because said person is marginally
transgendered (according to the MMPI, she is 'more masculine than
usual but within the acceptable range for females'), and i'm quite
androgynous/feminine.  so far as i know, there's no label for such a
situation (aside from the oft-used pervert, a badge i wear with pride
*grin*), mainly because society doesn't recognize transgenders enough
to provide adequate labels for the rich diversity acknowledging them
creates.

>We need to CHANGE the dominant culture's ideas about gender norms
>rather than try in vain to fit into them: what this means on a
>practical level is that if you're a TV who defines your crossdressed
>identity as lesbian, bisexual, omnisexual or into home appliances
>that's all JUST FINE, because we'l (finally!)  be moving beyond the
>need to classify this gender norm "morally correct" and anything that
>falls outside of it as "morally wrong".

it is my personal belief that any act which is mutually consentual and
does not involve causing harm (note: pain inflicted as part of sexual
sadism or sexual masochism i do not consider harm because it is
desired) is not immoral.  

kelly, still posting from the peanut gallery. :)
--
Most system flaws can be attributed to unwarrantedly anthropomorphizing the
user.
	-- T.C.Bennett@syse.salford.ac.uk
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: tony@morgan.demon.co.uk (Tony Kidson)
Subject: Re: Vive la France! 
Distribution: world
Organization: Not much.
Reply-To: tony@morgan.demon.co.uk
X-Mailer: Simple NEWS 1.90 (ka9q DIS 1.18)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 00:28:53 +0000


In article <1992Dec13.215419.7862@vela.acs.oakland.edu> w2lee@argo.acs.oakland.edu writes:

>I was surprised to find this matter still under question.
>Anybody know what US law says about it?

I know that the UK still follow the reactionary line and will not change 
birth certificates. I think it's a state matter in the US.



Tony




+-----------------+-------------------------------+--------------------------+
| Tony Kidson     |`morgan' is an 8MB  486/33 Cat-| Voice +44 81 466 5127    |
| Morgan Towers,  |Warmer with a 670 MB Hard Disk.| E-Mail                   |
| Morgan Road,    |It  resides at Morgan Towers in| tony@morgan.demon.co.uk  |
| Bromley,        |Beautiful  Down Town  Bromley. | tny@cix.compulink.co.uk  |
| England BR1 3QE |            -=<*>=-            | 100024.301@compuserve.com|
+=================+===============================+==========================+
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Kelly Martin)
Subject: Re: Interesting Concept
Reply-To: scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Organization: Gender Anarchists United
	<1992Dec12.201502.940@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca> ,
	<1992Dec17.200526.25671@news.ysu.edu>
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 04:03:40 GMT

ae907@yfn.ysu.edu (Roberta Steel) writes:

>In a previous article, scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Kelly Martin) says:

>>gender is best measured (as far as i can tell) on a biaxial gradiated
>>scale.  one axis is masculinity and the other is femininity.  (this is
>>a personal theory, btw, nothing scientific)

>Usually we put gender on a single axis ranging from masculine to feminine.
>A biaxial scale offers interesting possibilities.

>Please elaborate on your ideas.  They might get us out of the one track
>gender rut.

well, deb posted something on it, but i'll do so as well just to drive
up the statistics for alt.transgendered. :)

masculinity and femininity are measured on two orthogonal axes.  a
high on both is labeled androgynous.  a low on both axes is labeled
something like undifferentiated, and refers to a person who fails to
possess much of the stereotypically male or stereotypically female
traits.

few people land on the extremes of either axis.  it would be
interesting to collect some data and do some empirical clustering.
maybe i should do some informal research on mail.gender..

of course, what makes a trait stereotypically male or stereotypically
female is unclear, and i have no good advice on the matter.

kelly

--
You're damn right we need a rational code of morality and ethics.  But not
much progress can be made in that direction while we've still got a majority
ranting about gods, devils, souls, and absolute morality, and using an ancient
book written by ignorant nomads as a guide.  -- Doug Graham (dgraham@bnr.ca)
From: wendy@sundown.mil.wi.us (Wendy)
Date: 13 Dec 92 00:56:36 GMT
Subject: Re: History
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
Organization: Wendy's world
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

Vickie (an2069@anon.penet.fi) wrote:
:   Just how long has this group been in existence?
:   
:   Vickie
: -------------------------------------------------------------------------

A couple of months.....

Wendy
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: ah568@yfn.ysu.edu (Melissa Preston)
Subject: Legal Status of Transsexuals (was: Vive la France!)
Reply-To: ah568@yfn.ysu.edu (Melissa Preston)
Organization: St. Elizabeth Hospital, Youngstown, OH
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 05:14:10 GMT


Lorraine Lee <w2lee@argo.acs.oakland.edu> writes, quoting from Michael
S. Pettersen's <msp@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu> posting in soc.motss,
where Michael quotes from le Monde (phew!):

> The superior court [cour de cassation], in full assembly on Friday December
> 11, recognized the right of transsexuals to change their civil status.  This
> judgement marks a reversal for the high court [juridication supreme], which
> has refused since 1975 to grant this possibility to 13 people who wanted to
> change their sex.
> 
> [...] This decision follows a judgement by the European court of human
> rights on March 25, which ordered France to pay an indemnity of 100,000F
> [about $20,000] to Mr. Norbert B..., to whom it had denied a change
> of civil status since 1979.
> 
> After years of legal battle, France thus aligns itself with other
> European countries such as Sweden, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands,
> Denmark, Turkey [!], Finland and Spain.  But the importance of the
> judgement of the superior court is above all in the implied consequences.
> In theory, nothing further prevents the marriage of transsexuals or
> the possibility of their undertaking adoption procedures.

Having seen this, I wonder about other countries in Europe not mentioned
above, most notably for me Britain, as I have friends there. Does the
anti-France decision of the European court of human rights mean that
those countries in Europe who don't legally recognise the status of
transsexuals will have to change their laws else they face similar
judgements?

How far have other countries outside of Europe come in recognising the
legal status of transsexuals?

    Melissa.
-- 
Okay, so I got it wrong; I guess I was in a hurry.  //  Melissa Preston
						   //  ah568@yfn.ysu.edu
From: ak999@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Susan Davis)
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
Subject: Re: a question
Date: 21 Dec 92 01:40:14 GMT
Reply-To: ak999@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Susan Davis)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, glenn@access.digex.com (D. Glenn Arthur Jr.) says:
>
>Out of curiosity, does that make me, a het M->F TV who goes out
>in public dressed but doesn't try to pass, a drag queen, or 
>would that label only apply if I were gay?

It wouldn't necessarily even apply then, IMH(affa)O.  Drag queenishness
is more a state of mind or a culture than a particular set of attributes
(i.e. "crossdresses" and "Kinsey 5+").  Just my two cents; I don't claim
to be authoritative.

-- PTD --
-- 
Susan Davis                  Hold me, my love, hold me today, call me 'round.
ak999@cleveland.freenet.edu        Travel we say, wander we choose love tune.
(Standard disclaimers apply.)       Lay upon me, hold me 'round lasting ours.
Life is short.                  We love when we play.  Nous sommes du soleil.
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
Subject: Re: Birth Certificates in the UK 
Distribution: world
Organization: Not much.
Reply-To: tony@morgan.demon.co.uk
X-Mailer: Simple NEWS 1.90 (ka9q DIS 1.18)
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 21:16:07 +0000


In article <1992Dec15.085152.21203@penet.fi> an827@anon.penet.fi(Julie)writes:


>With reference to a previous article regarding the Europian Court
>of Human Rights overruling in France allowing the change of Birth
>Certificate:-
>
>Does anyone know if there might now be a change in the law in the UK?
>If I do eventually have SRS, and the law hasn't been changed, could
>I challenege the law in the same way as these other people did?  I would
>love to be able to get married one day; but as it stands the fact that
>my birth-certificate can't be changed at the moment that this is a problem.
>
>ALSO.  If I went to another country, such as Canada, to get married,
>and returned to the UK - would this marriage still be considered 'legal'
>in the UK?


I think not, yet. This is one of those things that our beloved government is 
fighting tooth and nail over. 


Regards


Tony


------------------+-------------------------------+--------------------------+
| Tony Kidson     |`morgan' is an 8MB  486/33 Cat-| Voice +44 81 466 5127    |
| Morgan Towers,  |Warmer with a 670 MB Hard Disk.| E-Mail                   |
| Morgan Road,    |It  resides at Morgan Towers in| tony@morgan.demon.co.uk  |
| Bromley,        |Beautiful  Down Town  Bromley. | tny@cix.compulink.co.uk  |
| England BR1 3QE |            -=<*>=-            | 100024.301@compuserve.com|
+=================+===============================+==========================+
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: edw@psg.com (Ed Wright)
Subject: Re: WHY?
Organization: Pacific Systems Group, Portland Oregon US
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 01:31:09 GMT

In article <1gl35qINN6c6@network.ucsd.edu> spl@pitstop.ucsd.edu (Steve Lamont) writes:
>>self-centered, is there anyone out there who thinks that the Scottish 
>>are PERVERTED? ...
>
>Of course they are.  Who else would eat haggis and play the bagpipes?

Its true, Haggis is offal

Ed
-- 
 REAL RADIOS             edw@m2xenix.psg.com            GLOW IN THE DARK
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<<^^>>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    >>No Voice>>>>>> Amateur Radio   KA9AHQ @ 28.340  <<<<<<<No Vice<<
  >>> Kshatriya Auscultating 9 Ailurophiles Hypothesizing Quodlibets <<<
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: jessica@wrs.com (Jessica Hart)
Subject: Re: Wow! stockings!
Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc.
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 00:12:08 GMT

In article <celeste-101292085449@128.158.16.248> celeste%express@freedom.msfc.nasa.gov (Celeste) writes:
>I and several of my genetic women friends has love/hate relationships
>with stockings. The only thing I realy like is the way they make my

(and other great rants about stockings and heels)

I had wanted to say that, as a genetic and behavioral female
(does that make sense?) the concept of "dressing up" and feeling
feminine makes perfect sense to me. I had wanted to post in support
of everyone here... wasn't sure if not being a TV, CD, or much of
any other acronym would disqualify me from posting... but after the
hateful drivel from "Neil" I now feel I am well within the bounds
of decency on this group.

I don't usually wear makeup, style my hair much, or wear heels
or hosiery except little white cotton socks. When I do these things,
I say I am "going in drag." Or even FULL drag. I hope no TV or CD who
overheard me would be offended? It just seems that is the word for it.
That style of dressing does not come naturally to me, and I was not
brought up to dress that way, but I do enjoy doing it occasionally
and it makes me feel "special" and even more sexy.

I guess that if I, a genetic female, say these things they sound
perfectly normal and understandable. But to some people they sound
abnormal and inconceivable if coming from a genetic male. I just
wanted to say I don't see why a man should feel any different about
it than a woman. If those are the clothes society says are "sexy"
how do we expect little kids who are boys to ignore those messages?
Actually it seems weird to me that most do!

Is this making any sense or am I also being a dense "straight" person
and not really getting it?

Anyway, I enjoy dressing up as much as some of you seem to. Does
that make me a Female Transvestite (FT) ??  :-)
Or a FCD?

(hi nigel)


Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: w2lee@argo.acs.oakland.edu (Lorraine Lee)
Subject: Re: Hating one's body, was Re: Me? Clueless? Naaah :)
Reply-To: w2lee@argo.acs.oakland.edu
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, MI
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 23:15:28 GMT

In article <1gtt96INNbr9@im4u.cs.utexas.edu>, russw@cs.utexas.edu (Russ Williams) writes:

>It's always interesting to see how much variation there is between
>people.  I don't get why being in a male body is horrible and you hate it.
>I believe you, and I certainly don't mean this as an attack.  But it's
>an alien concept to me.  I'm a male and am perfectly happy living in a
>male body, but I think if I were to wake up one day magically transformed
>into a female body, I would not hate that.  (Well, the problem of
>social acceptance would be big, but...)  I mean, I think women's bodies
>are beautiful and they look like they'd be neat vessels in which to live,
>but I'm also quite happy living in a male body.  I've crossdressed on
>occasion and enjoyed looking female, but most of the time I dress as a
>male typically does.

On the other hand, if I were to wake up one day magically transformed into a
female body, I would be in utter ecstasy.  That applies to 200 lb. female body,
100 year old female body, you name it.  So is it my attitude that needs
adjusting or...

>So I'm curious: would most people feel horrible living in the body of
>one given sex, or would you be happy in either sex (assuming you didn't
>get hassled by obnoxious society...).  I personally would like to live
>in the future when sex changes are easy, cheap and safe.  ("Gee, I think
>I'll go to the party in a female body tonight...")

You ask good questions.  I've asked myself the rhetorical question "Had you had
the good fortune to be born female, would you be F->M TS?"  I can't say for
absolute sure I wouldn't.  I'd be kidding myself if I thought simple curiosity
wasn't PART of it.  But I assure you it isn't all of it.  And I ASSURE you I
have NO illusion that the "grass is greener on the other side".  I'm not quite
sure exactly what my motivations are, but it is very essential to my being.  I
don't doubt I could be "cured" of transsexualism at the "mental" level (all
head shrinking and no surgery), but not without literally killing part of me. 

>So is this transgendered, or am I intergendered? :-) 
> 
>Russ

You are speculative.
That particular human mutation is to be cultivated!


Lorraine

Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: ag055@yfn.ysu.edu (Ward Chanley)
Subject: Re: Me? Clueless? Naaah :)
Organization: Youngstown State University/Youngstown Free-Net
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 16:51:27 GMT


Re: How does one self-identify as a
woman?

Like this: "I am a woman."

-- 
I thank the Goddess for my life,
I thank the Goddess for my loves,
I thank the Goddess for continued blessings.
     -- Z Budapest
Newsgroups: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk
From: steve@fulcrum.oz.au (Steve Taylor)
Subject: Re: CERT and the Dept. of Justice on keystroke monitoring
Organization: The Fulcrum Consulting Group
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 23:10:10 GMT

rob@wzv.win.tue.nl (Rob J. Nauta) writes:
>jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond) writes:
>>strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight) writes:

>->The notion that people should be warned about monitoring, when it
>->is done legally, is a fundamental civil liberties notion. It is
>->in the same class as "fair warnings" of many other kinds.

>>Damn straight.  If Jerk-eeee doesn't want his keystrokes monitored, his
>>option is to own his own machine.  If he is a guest on someone else's machine
>>or is on his employer's or institution's machine, he plays by their
>>rules or does not play.  Nothing difficult to understand about that.

Lets see... If I rent a hotel room, does the hotel owner have the right to
spy on me? After all, it's his hotel, and I could always go and buy my own
house.

						Steve Taylor


Newsgroups: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk,comp.org.eff.talk,comp.security.misc,alt.privacy
From: jbotz@mtholyoke.edu (Jurgen Botz)
Subject: Re: CERT and the Dept. of Justice on keystroke monitoring
Organization: Mount Holyoke College
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 21:13:13 GMT

In article <80ar1ql@dixie.com> jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond) writes:
>It makes no difference at all what you "expect".  What matters is what
>you agree to in your contract.  If the apartment owner you mentioned
>wanted access to your apartment anytime he wanted, you can either
>comply or rent elsewhere.  

Not that simple.  In Massachusetts at least a landlord is prohibited
by law from adding such a clause to the contract (i.e. lease).

>I'll bet you pay, oh, maybe a few percentage of what it costs to offer
>you that service.  Spurrious to the issue.  What kind of contract
>did you sign in order to get your access?  Those are the rules you live
>by.

Unless the contract is itself illegal or violates constitutionally
guaranteed freedoms.

--
Jurgen Botz                  |   Internet: JBotz@mtholyoke.edu
Academic Systems Consultant  |     Bitnet: JBotz@mhc.bitnet
Mount Holyoke College        |      Voice: (US) 413-538-2375 (daytime)
South Hadley, MA, USA        | Snail Mail: J. Botz, 01075-0629
From: kadie@cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk
Subject: [alt.censorship, et al.]  I've just been repremanded by net.big.brother
Date: 11 Dec 92 21:15:54 GMT
Followup-To: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk,alt.censorship,talk.bizarre,talk.politics.misc
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL

[A repost - Carl]

From: awells@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu (Andrew V. Wells)
Newsgroups: alt.censorship,talk.bizarre,talk.politics.misc
Subject:  I've just been repremanded by net.big.brother
Date: 11 Dec 92 15:53:03 GMT

I just received this scolding from a net official at my
university:

>From XXXXXX Thu Dec 10 20:37:25 1992
>Subject: language on internet
>To: awells (Andrew V. Wells)
>Date: Thu, 10 Dec 92 EST
>From:XXXXXXXXXXX
>Andy,
>	It has come to my attention that a number of complaints have
>been posted and mailed to Northeastern relative the the content of some
>recent postings to the internet from your account. While neither DAC or
>the University have any intention of restricting free speech, there are
>standards for reasonable conduct. Obscenities and name calling reflect
>badly on this University especially in a world wide forum. In the
>future, please refrain from using such offensive language; it
>contributes nothing to any kind of discussion. 
>Thank you.
>XXXXXXXXXXXX
>A net official
------------------End of letter-------------------------

Doesn't this constitute a subtle form of censorship? I've always
thought that what are pejoratively refered to as "obscenities" 
can be a valid expression of anger and revulsion, given what a
#$%*&!!#$@& world we live in. There have also been attacks on
the use of "obscenities" in Rap music, with the thought police
wanting to put "parental advisory" stickers on the albums. This
is indeed a real and clever form of censorship, as many of the
owners of large-chain shopping malls [mauls?], (where most people
buy their cassettes and CD's) have threatened to shut down
record stores that sell music with "parental advisory" stickers.
One of the big players in this censorship campaign is none other
than Tipper Gore.  I just wonder, after Jan. 20th, whether
we're going to start seeing warning labels slapped on
terminals all across the country warning people about such
excellent groups as talk.bizarre.  The scary thing is that
the real powerhouses behind all of this are not just people
like tipper gore, but ultra-right wing fanatic religous
fronts with Orwellian names such as the "American Family 
Association."
                                   andy wells
          ///\\\         awells@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu
        \\\\  ////        andyphys@nuhub.northeastern.edu
-- 
Carl Kadie -- I do not represent any organization; this is just me.
 = kadie@cs.uiuc.edu =
Newsgroups: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk,comp.org.eff.talk,comp.security.misc,alt.privacy
From: jbotz@mtholyoke.edu (Jurgen Botz)
Subject: Re: CERT and the Dept. of Justice on keystroke monitoring
Organization: Mount Holyoke College
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 21:31:40 GMT

In article <y0ar6=l@dixie.com> jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond) writes:
>I repeat, it is the owner of the resource's right to set the rules
>anyway he so chooses.  

Within the parameters of the law, that is.

--
Jurgen Botz                  |   Internet: JBotz@mtholyoke.edu
Academic Systems Consultant  |     Bitnet: JBotz@mhc.bitnet
Mount Holyoke College        |      Voice: (US) 413-538-2375 (daytime)
South Hadley, MA, USA        | Snail Mail: J. Botz, 01075-0629
Newsgroups: alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk,sci.econ,misc.jobs.misc,misc.education,sci.bio,sci.chem,sci.edu,sci.math,sci.physics