HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: eng10511@nusunix1.nus.sg (RAM VIKASH TIWARY)
Subject: Re: Israeli Expulsion of 418 Palestinians
Organization: National University of Singapore
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 11:11:29 GMT

David Makowsky (makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu) wrote:
: In article <1583@blue.cis.pitt.edu> rdtst+@pitt.edu (Richard D Thorne) writes:
: 
: # The action of the Israeli government, removing the Hamas activists, is 
: # legal.  It conforms with Israeli law and was upheld by the High Court.  It 
: # does not violate international law, specifically the Geneva Convention,
: # since Israel's possession of the West Bank and Gaza is the result of
: # a war of self-defense, and no other state has a stronger claim to sovereignty
: # than does Israel.  
: 
: 	[ rest deleted - dlm ]
: 
: 	One more point I would like to make, one I have made throughout
: this debate and despite the harrasment by Wanyne and the pooh poohing
: by Brendan, is that even if the deportations are a violation of
: International law, the first responsibility of any state, just as with
: any individual, is self preservation.
: 
: 	So even if the act was a violation of international law (am I am
: not condeding that it was), Israel cannot be blamed for violating
: international law if the deportations were necessary for her national
: security.
: 
: 	And before anyone jumps on me, I am not claiming that it was
: necessary for Israel's self defense just because Israel said it was.
: However, based on the "facts on the ground", I believe even more
: deportations orders of magnitude greater are needed for Israel's self
: defense.
: --
: 	There are three types of people in the world.  Those that are good
: at math and those that are not.
: 
: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.ed

	What facts are you referring to.  I strongly disagree with the
assessment that Israel needs to expel Arabs in the interest of its
national security.  What constitutes this need may I know.  How can 418
members of an extremist group (and they never got a chance to a fair
trial) pose a threat to a garrison state like Isreal which is more than
a metch for all the armies of its Arab neighbours.  It is action of this
nature, without regard to rights and aspirations of others that sets the
civilised world apart from savages.  Israel and is American patrons who
keep harping on human rights and democracy (what democracy did the
native americans get) should stop the farce.  It makes my stomach turn.
Justice is a not objective, it is the will of the powerful imposed on
the weak.  Have the guts to face the facts for what they are.
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: israel
Date: 5 Jan 1993 15:07:24 GMT
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: merlin.think.com

In article <1483500315@igc.apc.org>, cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:

|> 5. The State of Israel will continue to face security problems as a
|>    matter of course as long as it is perceived as an expansionist and
|>    militaristic danger to the Arabs. Israel's refusal to define its
|>    ultimate borders, its numerous pre-emptive attacks on Arab territories,
|>    its refusal to relinquish conquered areas and its active sollicitation
|>    of Jewish immigration and demographic change, are perceived as

I think you are overlooking the fact that Israel can hardly declare
the current de facto borders to be its ultimate border's, as this
would prevent any chance of peace in the region.  Nor can Israel
make a one-sided claim to smaller borders without an international uproar.
For example, if Israel were to declare tomorrow that Gaza is not longer to be
occupied, and cordon it off after withdrawing, many palestinians would yell
bloody murder.


-- 
Shai Guday              | Knowing martial arts allows one to remain calm when
OS Software Engineer    | confronted by idiots, secure in the knowledge that
Thinking Machines Corp. | you could dismember them easily, while you calmly
Cambridge, MA           | proceed to dismember them easily.
From: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: leibowitz
Date: 9 Jan 93 11:50:54 EST
Reply-To: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Distribution: talk
Organization: Channel 1 Communications

To: Chris Metcalfe

>That is an egregiously false statement, Josh. I just finished
>reading Leibowitz's book in its entirety, and the truth is
>entirely the opposite: he believes in the strict separation of
>religion and state. Leibowitz believes that the bleeding together
>of Judaism and secular Zionism is corrupting both of them.

 CM> Perhaps you should also read "The Faith of Maimonides" by
 CM> Leibowitz, Wayne.  In this work he fully subscribes to the
 CM> halachic life, which includes settling in Eretz Yisrael.
 CM> Leibowitz is a Jerushalmi no less.

Leibowitz is a devout, believing, practicing Jew: he accepts the
yoke of Torah and halachic law. He does not believe in imposing
an halachic theocracy on Israel. Big difference.

In Judaism, Human Values, and the Jewish State Leibowitz argues
that Israel, on grounds of self-interest more than morality,
should withdraw from the occupied territories, which are
traditionally considered to be part of Eretz Yisrael. Provide me
with any quotes from Leibowitz in which he supports Israeli
settlements in the occupied territories.

Leibowitz's is a sober, self-disciplined, austere Judaism, not a
half-assed circus Judaism of the kind that is leading one of the
major Jewish communities in the world ridiculously to hail
Menachem Schneerson as the Messiah or to justify the proposition
that all Palestinians in the occupied territories should be
deported or murdered.
---
  OLX 3.01 31-2557  Words which come from the heart penetrate the heart.
--
Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: israel as asset
Date: 10 Jan 93 19:34:49 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <cubsfan.726602421@camelot> cubsfan@camelot.bradley.edu (Michael Silverman) writes:
>
>Perhaps if Israel had the world's largest petroleum reserves, it
>too could pay its own way!

Maybe if this deal goes through (peace talks), Israel may get
a piece of the action.  I'm sure the Saudis would not want to
risk the relationship they have with their American Masters,
whom still have hundreds of thousands of soldiers still in Saudi
Arabia.

Anisa

	"The counter revolution People smiling through their
	tears Who can give them back their lives AAnd all those
	wasted years? All those precious wasted years - Who will
	pay?"  Geddy Lee
From: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: israel vs. the world
Date: 6 Jan 93 09:03:21 EST
Reply-To: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Distribution: talk
Organization: Channel 1 Communications

To: Josh Backon

 JB> Leibowitz (whose biography was written up 2 weeks ago in
 JB> Jerusalem's KOL HA'IR weekly magazine on the occasion of his
 JB> 90th birthday) is a religious fanatic who believes in
 JB> replacing Israeli secular law with Jewish law (HALACHA).
 JB> Quite convenient that you didn't mention this which only
 JB> goes to show how LITTLE you really know on the Israeli
 JB> situation.

That is an egregiously false statement, Josh. I just finished
reading Leibowitz's book in its entirety, and the truth is
entirely the opposite: he believes in the strict separation of
religion and state. Leibowitz believes that the bleeding together
of Judaism and secular Zionism is corrupting both of them.

Judaism, Human Values, and the Jewish State is a profound work,
Josh. I know greatness when I see it, and Leibowitz has all the
hallmarks. This book is going to create waves that will
reverberate for many decades, and quite possibly longer.

You don't realize by what a thin thread Israel is hanging in the
Western world. Writers like Leibowitz, Harkabi and Neusner are
among a small group of Israelis and Diaspora Zionists whom
opinion elites in the West listen to with any respect. And yet
you and many other Israelis insult their sanity, intelligence and
character without taking the trouble to address any of the
substantive ideas in their works.

No wonder Israel is increasingly going down the tubes....

The day you lose your Leibowitz's, Harkabi's and Neusner's is the
day that Israel is going to be finished.
---
  OLX 3.01 31-2557  state of the art cryptographic technology
--
Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA

Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:25105 soc.culture.greek:12153
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Cat Steven's visit to Israel (& concert!)
Date: 7 Jan 93 08:58:47 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <1993Jan6.184012.19131@das.harvard.edu> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
>In article <4842@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:
>
>>So, it appears that they knew about Yousef Islam's plans to visit Israel
>>and harrassed him for three/four hours even with the knowledge that they
>>had no intentions of permitting his entry.
>
>Where on earth did the "harrassed for 3-4 hours come from?"  My
>reading of the article was that he was denied entry, and then made to
>wait for the plane to be refueled, and then flew back to London. 

Here is the article from s.c.j.:

>In article <4831@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:
#In article <1993Jan3.180442.23504@newshub.ccs.yorku.ca> wc4209@writer.yorku.ca (Irene Berkovich) writes:

#I don't think you get it.  He would have had bad feelings if it were
the case that Cat Stevens converted from Judaism to Islam (or to
Christianity, or to Zoroastroism (?sp), or Buddism etc) since it is
considered a cardinal sin in Judaism to convert to another religion.
He was not singling out Islam.

>Sorry, I obviously misunderstood because it was unclear.  What is the
punishment for such a "cardinal sin" of converting from Judaism to
another religion?

#Also as I remember it, Yousef Islam was allowed into Israel when he
came to visit.  He even made the requisite propaganda speeches after
his visit criticizing the Israel occupation blah, blah, blah.

>This is from an article in the Rocky Mountain News of July, 1990:
>
	"Islam irked by airport incident"

	"Former pop singer Cat Stevens, now known as Yusuf Islam,
	said yesterday in London that Israeli authorities expelled
	him without explanation after holding him and his son at
	the airport and searching his belongings.  Islam said in a
	statement he endured a 'three-hour ordeal' while his luggage
	was 'ripped apart'.  He said he arrived at Ben-Gurion Airport
	on July 1 with his 5-year-old son, Muhammad, to attend a
	Moslem folk festival."

>Now let's see your evidence to support your statement.

[rest of article deleted]


Irene's article quoted 4 hours ...

Anisa

	"Find your sisters and brothers who can hear all the
	truth in what you say.  They can support you when you're
	on your way."	[Shaking The Tree]
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: idfriedm@hertz.uwaterloo.ca (id friedman)
Subject: Re: opinion elites
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 19:03:02 GMT

In article <1993Jan10.163104.18005@das.harvard.edu> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
>In article <1993Jan9.1777.22303@channel1> "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:
>
>>Re: Western opinion elites and Israel: perhaps I should have used
>>the word "privately" rather than "secretly." What Western opinion
>>elites are saying about Israel publicly can be easily discerned
>>by consulting the appropriate books and journals. What they are
>>saying publicly is none too positive or friendly these days. What
>>they are saying about Israel privately is much harsher. 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
>
>Please tell us Wayne, which members of the Western opinion elites you
>are privledged to report on?
>
  Even if Wayne is privy to some first hand private info. from "Western
  elites" ( he is implying that he has first hand info. about elite
 opiniions from not only the U.S since he used the term "Western elite"
 as opposed to "U.S elite"), one should realize that, in general, what
  "elites" say privately is probably more harsh than what is being said
  publically.

  For example, would Nixon have made some of the private conversations
  ( a la Watergate) publicly? 

 Hence, the term *** diplomacy ***.

                                      

>>With regard to the rosy economic forecasts for Israel: it's all
>>bullshit until Israel gets off the American dole and stands on
>>its own two feet like any other normal Western democratic nation:
>>England, France, Italy, Denmark, Sweden, Canada, you name it. 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 Care to indicate what amount of U.S aid went to defend the borders
 of these countries.   

 Care to indicate the extent to which some of these countries relied
  on U.S defense personnel.   

                           

>
>Are we referring to the same England, France and Denmark who the US
>spent hundereds of billions of dollars yearly to protect through the
>cold war?  Somehow that massive millitary budget seems not to be a
>"dole" in your eyes, despite the fact that without the US army to
>protect them, each of those countries would be in much worse shape.
>
>Adam
>
 Adam, you must realize that Wayne would rather send his son and $100
 cheque to defend Western Europe, as opposed to sending $10 to help  
 Israel defend itself.
  

>
>Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu
>
>What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
>at all.  How true that is.

  Ishay
From: rdtst+@pitt.edu (Richard D Thorne)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israeli Expulsion of 418 Palestinians
Date: 12 Jan 93 21:21:26 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

| On this I have to agree with Brendan.  The fact that there is a possible
| legal loophole which permits Israel to not apply the Geneva Convention
| does not make it (morally) right to not do so.
| 
| While Israel might be following the letter of the law, it is certainly
| not following the spirit.
| 
| --
| David M. Nieporent   | Is it too early to start making predictions for 1993?
| 
     Israel's moral responsibility is to stop Hamas from killing Israelis
     and Palestinians.  That Israel attempts to do so within the framework
     of law is characteristic of it's behavior.  The above comment is
     complete nonsense.  The Geneva convention is a legal document therefore
     the particulars within the document define when it should be applied.
     Some would want Israel to apply its terms in such a way that would
     legitimize the illegal actions of Jordan in initiating hostilities and
     protect people (Hamas) who act outside of both morality and law.  That
     is not justice, but perversity.
          

           Richard Thorne rdt@med.pitt.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: israel as asset
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 93 00:33:02 GMT

In article <1993Jan11.1777.22396@channel1> "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:

>Israel can barely keep control of the occupied territories. 

Israel has done a remarkably good job and has minimized the casualties
among civilians, though at a cost of increased casualties among soldiers.

Have you seen what has happened in places like Somalia, Bosnia, India
and Egypt where Muslims decided that they didn't like the government
and decided to change things?  Israel isn't anything like any of those
places. 

>Can
>you imagine what the violence would be like if the U.S. and
>Israel tried to occupy the oil-producing nations for any extended
>period of time?

Can you imagine what the violence would be like if an uprising against
the government arose in the U.S. as it has in Israel?  Can you imagine
the reaction when Americans are murdered in the streets based on
religious affiliation alone, when soldiers are kidnapped near their
homes and executed by the kidnappers, when all the other countries
around it declare never-ending war and support the internal revolution
to the hilt?

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com              10 years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed President.
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24976 talk.politics.soviet:10287
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.history
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Jewish Scholars on the first genocide of the 20th century.
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 93 20:24:48 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <1993Jan5.005016.19003@husc3.harvard.edu> verbit@brauer.harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky) writes:

>	Dear Mark, you couldn't get the applause even
>	from hick friends - only from AI program :)
>	Pity that you are so insistent on bullshitting...

Typical "virvir" drivel. Reading is a blow to your self-image?

Source: Stanford J. Shaw, on Armenian collaboration with invading Russian
armies in 1914, "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey (Volume
II: Reform, Revolution & Republic: The Rise of Modern Turkey, 1808-1975)."
(London, Cambridge University Press 1977). pp. 315-316.

"In April 1915 Dashnaks from Russian Armenia organized a revolt in the city 
 of Van, whose 33,789 Armenians comprised 42.3 percent of the population, 
 closest to an Armenian majority of any city in the Empire...Leaving Erivan 
 on April 28, 1915, Armenian volunteers reached Van on May 14 and organized 
 and carried out a general slaughter of the local Muslim population during 
 the next two days while the small Ottoman garrison had to retreat to the
 southern side of the lake."

Source: Stanford J. Shaw, on Armenian collaboration with invading Russian
armies in 1914, "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey (Volume
II: Reform, Revolution & Republic: The Rise of Modern Turkey, 1808-1975)."
(London, Cambridge University Press 1977). pp. 315-316.

"With the Russian invasion of eastern Anatolia in 1914 at the beginning of
 World War I, the degree of Armenian collaboration with the Ottoman's enemy
 increased drastically. Ottoman supply lines were cut by guerilla attacks,
 Armenian revolutionaries armed Armenian civil populations, who in turn
 massacred the Muslim population of the province of Van in anticipation of
 expected arrival of the invading Russian armies."

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.'    (Sahak Melkonian)
From: gwydion@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Basalat Ali Raja)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: News from the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip.
Date: 8 Jan 1993 22:42:12 GMT
Organization: Free Software Foundation
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: spiff.gnu.ai.mit.edu

jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson) wrote:

# You're forgetting, Makowsky knows *everything*. There are lots more where he
# comes from, that's why they don't need to bother with trials in Israel.

In article <1ik4esINN4jt@early-bird.think.com> shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday) writes:

>Sorry to tell you but Makowsky lives in the United States. 

According to Makowsky, Makowsky comes from Israel.



Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24877 soc.culture.greek:12079 soc.culture.europe:11037 soc.culture.yugoslavia:10424
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.yugoslavia
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: Anti-Macedonian Legal Acts by Successive Greek Governments.
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 93 20:29:54 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <C0EzFB.KyA@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ) writes:

> You heard many responses in the past, and I think these are enough.  We don't
> have much time to waste on lunaticks.

Nope. I do have enough time to waste on "lunatics" like yourself.

  <<The Greek War of Independence brought disaster to the Jewish communities
  in the Peloponnesos, where the revolution erupted in 1821. The Jews,
  because of their close association with the Ottoman administration,
  were massacred along with the Turks. The Jewish communities of Mistras,
  Tripolis, and Kalamata were decimated; the few survivors moved north to
  settle in Chalkis and Volos, still under Ottoman rule. Patras lost its
  ancient Jewish community, which was refounded only in 1905.>>


                                         Nikos Stavroulakis
                                      'Athens-Auschwitz', page ix.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.'    (Sahak Melkonian)


Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:25063 alt.revisionism:882 soc.history:10621
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,alt.revisionism,soc.history
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: LEST WE FORGET: The Fate of the Homosexuals
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 93 15:37:10 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <1993Jan09.130103.27212@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) writes:

>"A few remarks are in order about the various sex relationships in
>concentration camps. I start out with the homosexuals since they were
>accorded a special category among the inmates and `merited' a separate,
>pink triangle. ...

This is a big yard - there are lots of leaves.

"These European Dashnags, with headquarters in Berlin, appealed to,
 and bargained with Hitler's emissaries for an 'independent'
 Armenian state. That they had to bootlick Nazi masters goes without
 saying. That, as potential officials of a puppet Nazi state, they
 would have assumed the infamous roles of the Paveliches, Antonescus,
 Lavals, Tisos or Vidkun Quislings was also a foregone conclusion.
 Once committed to it, there was no alternative to the price for
 'independence' except subservience to Hitler."[1]

[1] Arthur Derounian under the pseudonym 'John Roy Carlson,'
    "The Armenian Displaced Persons," in the "Armenian Affairs,"
    a Quarterly Journal of Armenian Studies, Winter 1949-50, p. 18.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.'    (Sahak Melkonian)