From: tomster@bigwpi.WPI.EDU (Thomas Richard Dibble)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: More Defense of CLI  (there, I changed the subject ... )
Date: 28 Sep 92 22:20:39
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute, Worcester, MA 01609-2280
	<6042.2ac32a2f@hayes.com> <1992Sep27.225543.42016@news.th-darmstadt.de>
	<6062.2ac7154d@hayes.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigwpi.wpi.edu
In-reply-to: bcoleman@hayes.com's message of 28 Sep 92 14:23:08 EDT

In article <6062.2ac7154d@hayes.com> bcoleman@hayes.com (Bill Coleman) writes:

   In article <1992Sep27.225543.42016@news.th-darmstadt.de>, wallmann@backus.pu.informatik.th-darmstadt.de (Natuerlich!) writes:
   > In article <6042.2ac32a2f@hayes.com> bcoleman@hayes.com (Bill Coleman) writes:

   READ MY LIPS -- THE MACINTOSH DOESN'T HAVE FILE NAME EXTENSIONS.

   It has file names.

   Sheesh. I hate having to put up with people in a debate who obviously don't
   have a clue to the issues. You've obviously never even seen a Macintosh,
   much less used one.

Don't you hate that ...

   > Given that you put uncle Herberts face on all icons
   > depicting letters to uncle Herbert, yes this is a case where the GUI 
   > can't be beat.

   Thank you.

   >>All the time. I typically do it as a shortcut. Sometimes it is easy to 
   >>visually recognize that you want all the files in a certain spot, except a
   >>couple. So rather than shift-clicking on every one you want, it is quicker
   >>to select a bunch, then shift-click to deselect the ones you don't want.
   > Well in that case you were NOT really selecting the "first four columns".

   I don't think of it that way. If I had to verbalise it to a computer in a
   command line, I'd probably have to type "colselect 1 4" or something. Instead,
   I do something far simpler. I use the mouse (inaccurately, according to Fitt's
   Law) and select the ones I (almost) want. I don't have to think about which
   column they are in.

Okay.  'select del (*.*)'.  Then I'm selecting which files I want to delete
by highlighting and pressing space-bar.
Or.  'except(select (*.*)) del *.*'.  Then I select which files I *don't* want
to delete.  If I don't remember the exact syntaxt, 'except /?' gives me
the syntaxt.

The example *you* gave, however, is more than just slightly caterring to your
GUI point of view.  How does 'the first four columns' relate to any real
filing system?
The system 'imposed upon us' by that evil thing DOS by nature has very quick
short-cuts and casts in it.  The system imposed upon *you* by the Mac UI is
equally streamlined.

   >>Unfortunately, there's more than just typing involved. There's the realisation
   >>that 'rm *.c" is what you want to do. You have again convieniently deleted
   >>the cognitive steps required to come to that conclusion.
   > 
   > As explained last time, the user's planning of this is independent of the
   > user interface.

   As explained last time, it isn't. With a visual interface, there's little
   planning. With a CLI, you HAVE to plan to get work done. Experienced CLI
   users plan a bit faster, and they conform their work conventions to be
   compatable with the limitations of the CLI in order to AVOID planning.

Well.  Hm.  Lets see.  I can type 'ds en /s' to sort my directories by
extension and then by name.  or I can type 'ds' and be asked what I want
to do.  It seems that us CLI users have more than one level of planning.
How many does the GUI afford?  How easy is it for you to launch a system-
intensive application and leave for lunch?

   >>Yes it does. People are human. They make mistakes. Any type of man/machine
   >>interface should be tolerant of those mistakes. That's part of what makes
   >>a good user interface. I'm not confusing anything.
   > No it doesn't. A CLI on the Symbolics for example just marks those files
   > deleted, and the OS wipes them away after a day or so, but you can umark
   > them easily.

   Or you could run an "undelete" application on your PC. You miss the point. 
   if you type 'rm *.c' you can't see the results. You may be unaware you
   deleted some important file. With a graphic user interface, you can see

If you are not drugged or unconcious, you will most likely see the listing
of deleted files go up on your screen.  I know that I, as an 'experienced'
CLI user, read these as they come up so that I don't screw things up.  It
seems a novice would be even less leaden-footed.

I do understand and cede at least *part* of your point here, though; this
recognition comes *after* the file has been deleted, and you have to run
unerase to get it back again.  On UNIX systems (at least the one at my school)
I am automatically prompted before *each* file I delete.  This seems counter-
productive at times, but there is no 'unerase' on our UNIX server.

   it, right there, mister important file is in front of you. If you drag him
   to the trash, you know he is going to disappear. Retrieving is a simple
   process, drag him out of the trash. With a CLI, you have to run another
   command to undo what you did, provided you realise your error soon enough.

   >>Again, it depends on how you measure speed. I measure it in the time it
   >>takes to get the job done, CORRECTLY.
   >>
   > Since your job is (apparently) doing graphics, I am sure that you are far
   > happier with a GUI. I as a programmer would be VERY unhappy if I just
   > had a GUI.

   I have a surprise. I'm a programmer.

I feel sorry for you, really I do.

   -- 
   Bill Coleman, AA4LR                ! CIS: 76067,2327    AppleLink: D1958
   Principal Software Engineer        ! Packet Radio: AA4LR @ W4QO
   Hayes Microcomputer Products, Inc. ! UUCP: uunet!hayes!bcoleman
   POB 105203 Atlanta, GA 30348 USA   ! Internet: bcoleman%hayes@uunet.uu.net
   Disclaimer: "My employer doesn't pay me to have opinions."
   Quote: "The same light shines on vineyards that makes deserts." -Steve Hackett.

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