From: djohnson@cayley.waterloo.edu (David Johnson)
Subject: Re: Value of Stats
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 14:21:10 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.121723.28133@ra.msstate.edu> maj1@Ra.MsState.Edu (Mark "Beren" Jamison) writes:
>In article <Brr3Dx.Ey8@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> djohnson@cayley.waterloo.edu (David Johnson) writes:
>>In article <10010651@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM> mjs@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Marc Sabatella) writes:
>>>In rec.sport.baseball, djohnson@cayley.waterloo.edu (David Johnson) writes:
>>>
>>>Do you really mean to say you'd take the lesser player if he gave 100% effort?
>>>Awfully sweet of you, but not conducive to winning, which is what a lot of us
>>>enjoy.
>>
>>If the lesser player can improve the clubhouse atmosphere which in turn
>>may improve the the teams performance on the field then of course I would
>>take the less talented player.
>>
>
>So you are telling me that if both Barry Bonds and Dan Gladden were availible
>to your team , you would take dan Gladden??!??

No I would take Bonds because his offensive abilities by far outweigh Gladdens
abilities to create a good clubhouse atmosphere.  When I say a less talented
player I don't mean Bonds vs Gladden differences I mean players which are
slightly different in talent.  When making a decision on who to take for any
team I would look at what the team needs.  If we need a power hitter then
pay Bonds $6 million to hit home runs but if you need a team leader then Dan
Gladden for a lot less money may be a good idea as well.

>Man oh man don't I wish you were the GM of the Twins or Blue Jays, You would
>get the same kind of records that the Florida Marlins will next year..
>
>>>> Another thing that stats don't show is how agressive a player is.  For 
>>>> anyone who has seen R. Alomar play a lot you will realize that he forces
>>>> other teams to make errors by running extra hard to first on a ground ball
>>>> causing the other team to rush a throw etc.  As far as I know there is no
>>>> stat which shows this.
>>>
>>>OBA would if it counted "reached base on errors", which most true sta-heads
>>>believe it should.
>>
>>Even so if the wild through goes into the dugout and the player goes to 
>>second the player is now in scoring position which is much better than
>>being on first or out which a non agressive players may be.  The same
>>can be said for a player trying to stretch a single into a double and
>>forces a wild throw and now he is on third which another player may only
>>be on first.
>>
>
>No, if a wild pitch gets away from a catcher, and you have speed greater than
>Jody Davis, you will adavance to second agressive or no.. And for your

Agreed but if Alomar hustles down the line he will create more wild throws
than if he just ran down the line.

>single stretching example, 2/3 of the time the throw is on target and your
>"agressive" player just cost the team a baserunner.. Is it worth it??
>Most people you would label as agressive I bet I would label as 
>a) Extremely Fast 
>or
>b) Stupid, an a liability on the bases..

A good agressive player also has to be a smart player.  If R. Alomar doesn't
think that he has a chance to make second he will stop at first but he hustles
down the first base line every time just in case the chance comes which he can
go to second.  If he was satisfied with a single all the time he wouldn't have
to hustle and just take a light run to first.

>>>> Stats don't tell everything about a player so don't
>>>> base your arguements on stats alone.
>>>
>>>If the argument is "who is a better player", then good objective statistics
>>>contribute a whole lot more than what someone says about how hard the players
>>>worked.
>>>
>
>Look at Marc's remark down here Dave.. SDCN (tm) don't use qualitative 
>things such as clubhouse repoire, because they are subjective. Look at the 
>arguement you are having presently in the Winfield is better than Bell bit??
>Without statistics, and without having played for the Jays, you are making 
>opinions based on second hand information from reporters who may have hated
>Bell and loved Winfield..

I have explained my point of view in BELL vs Winfield posts.

>--
>______________________________________________________________________________
>                       Still looking for Luthien
>maj1@ra.msstate.edu                                 maj1@camlost.b17a.ingr.com
>______________________________________________________________________________

--David Johnson

Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball