From: iglesias@draco.acs.uci.edu (Mike Iglesias)
Subject: Rec.Bicycles Frequently Asked Questions Posting  Part 1/4
Expires: 15 Oct 1992 00:00:00 GMT
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.misc,news.answers
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Supersedes: <rec-bicycles-faq-1_920808@draco.acs.uci.edu>
Date: 15 Sep 92 03:46:44 GMT
Followup-To: rec.bicycles.misc

Archive-name: bicycles-faq/part1

Answers to Rec.Bicycles' Frequently Asked Questions and Interesting Information

Last modified:  August 8, 1992


The following monthly posting contains the answers to frequently asked
questions posed to rec.bicycles and interesting information that
cyclists might find useful.  Some of the answers are from postings to
rec.bicycles, and and some are condensed from postings.  Answers
include the name and email address of the author.  If no author is
listed, I'm the guilty party.  If you're the author and I've
misspelled your name or have the wrong email address, let me know and
I'll fix it. 

If you have something you feel should be included in the FAQ, please
write it up and send it to me at the address below.

Note:  I don't read each and every posting to rec.bicycles.*, so suggesting
that something be included in the FAQ may not be seen.  If you want
something included, summarize the discussion and send me the summary.


Mike Iglesias
iglesias@draco.acs.uci.edu

===========================================================================

Quick Index:
(* means section hasn't been written yet.  ! means updated since last
FAQ.  + means new section.)

! Archives
+ Books and Magazines
  Electronic Mailing Lists
+ Mail Order Addresses
+ Posting Guidelines
  General Information
    Road Gradient Units
    Ball Bearing Grades
    Tour de France Jerseys
    Major Tour Winners  1947-1991
    Bike Trailers
    One Less Car T-Shirts
    Panniers and Racks
    Helmets
    Clothing
    Seats
    SIS Cables
    Terminology
    Maps
!   Women's Saddles
    Women's Bikes
    Bike Rentals
    Bike Lockers
    Bike Computer Features
    Avoiding Dogs
    Shaving Your Legs
    Contact Lenses and Cycling
    Bicycling in America
+ Recumbents
+   Recumbent Bike Info
+   More Recumbent Bike Info
  Commuting
    How to deal with your clothes
  Cold Weather Cycling
    Pete's Winter Cycling Tips
    Nancy's Cold/Wet Cycling Tips
    Studded Tires
    Milk Jug Mud Flaps
  Touring
    Touring supplies
  Cycling Myths 
  Buying a Bike
  Chains
    Lubrication
    Wear and Gear Slipping
    Adjusting Chain Length
    Hyperglide Chains
  Cranks and Bottom Brackets
    Bottom Bracket Info
    Crank Noise
    Cracking/Breaking Cranks
    Biopace Chainrings
  Tires, tubes and rims
    Snakebite flats  
    Blown Tube
    Mounting Tires
    More Flats on Rear Tires
    Anodized vs. Non-anodized Rims
    Clinchers vs. Tubulars
    Presta Valve Nuts
    Ideal Tire Sizes
  Brakes
    Center Pivot vs. Dual Pivot brakes
+ Headsets, Forks
+   Indexed Steering
  Adjustments
    Seat adjustments
    Cleat adjustments
    SIS derailleur adjustments
  Tools and Workstands
    Where to buy tools
    Workstands
  Riding Techniques
    Descending I
    Descending II
    Trackstands
  Nutrition and Food
    Nutrition Primer
    Nuclear Free Energy Bar recipe
    Powerbars
    Calories burned by cycling
  Frames
    Frame stiffness comparison
    Frame materials
    Bike pulls to one side
    Frame repair
    Frame Fatigue
  Injuries
    Road rash 
    Knee problems
  
===========================================================================

Archives

I've made available via anonymous ftp a copy of the current FAQ and a
few other items on draco.acs.uci.edu (128.200.34.12).  This is the
workstation on my desk, so I'd appreciate it if people would restrict
their use to 7pm-7am Pacific time.  The files are in pub/rec.bicycles.

For those without Internet access, you can use the ftpmail server at
gatekeeper.dec.com to get copies of the items there.  I really don't
have time to email copies of files to people who can't get at them
easily.  To use the FTP server, send an email message containing the
line

help

in the body of the message to ftpmail@gatekeeper.dec.com.  You'll get
a help file back from the FTP server with more information on how to
use it. 

                README for Rec.Bicycles Anonymous FTP area

bike.lockers	David H. Wolfskill's (david@dhw68k.cts.com) summary of
		bike locker vendors.

bike.painting   Sam Henry's (shenry@rice.edu) collection of articles on
		how to paint a bike.

bike_power.*    Ken Roberts program to calculate power output and power
		consumption.  See bike_power.doc for more info.

biking_log.hqx	Phil Etheridge's (phil@massey.ac.nz) hypercard stack
		riding diary.  It keeps track of dates, distance, time,
		average speed, etc., and keeps running weekly, monthly,
		and yearly totals.

competitive.nutrition
		Roger Marquis' (marquis@well.uucp) article from the
		Feb 91 Velo News on nutrition and cycling.

faq.*		The current Frequently Asked Questions posting

first.century	Pamela Blalock's (pamela@keps.kodak.com) tips on training
		for your first century ride.

lights		Tom Reingold's (tr@samadams.princeton.edu) collection of 
		articles on bike lights.

pbp.info	Pamela Blalock's (pamela@keps.kodak.com) information 
		on her Paris-Brest-Paris ride.

pictures	Bicycling gif pictures.

ride.index	Chris Hull's/Bill Bushnell's (bushnell@lmsc.lockheed.com)
		explanation of a way to "index" rides and compare the 
		difficulty of different rides.

spike.bike	Bob Fishell's (spike@cbnewsd.att.com) Spike Bike series.  
		They are numbered in the order that Bob posted them to
		rec.bicycles.  All the Spike Bike stories are 
		"Copyright 1989 by Robert Fishell, all rights reserved."

spokelen11.bas	Roger Marquis' (marquis@well.uucp) spoke length 
		calculator, written in Microsoft Quickbasic.

spokelen.c	Andy Tucker's (tucker@Neon.Stanford.EDU) port of 
		Roger Marquis' spokelen11.bas to C.

studded.tires	Nancy Piltch's (piltch@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov) compilation
		of messages on studded tires, including how to make your
		own.

tandem.boxes	Arnie Berger's (arnie@hp-lsd.cos.hp.com) notes on how
		he built a box to transport his tandem to Europe and
		back.  It's taken from a longer travelogue on his trip - if
		you want more information, contact him at the above
		address.

trailers	A summary posting of messages about bike trailers.  Good
		stuff if you're thinking of buying a trailer.

wheels.*.hqx    R. Scott Truesdell's (truesdel@ics.uci.edu) Hypercard
		stack to calculate spoke lengths.  See wheels.readme
		for more info.

wintertips	Pete Hickey's (pete@panda1.uottawa.ca) notes about
		how to cycle in the winter.



Files available via anonymous ftp from ugle.unit.no (129.241.1.97)
in the directory local/biking. This directory is maintained by Joern
Dahl-Stamnes (dahls@fhydra.dnet.unit.no).

READ.ME         Information about the other files in the directory.

bm103.zip       The latest version of Bike Manager. The .uue file
bm103.uue       is a uuencoded version of the .zip file.

                Bike Manager is a shareware program that help you keep a
                log of your training activities. It can report summary
                reports, weekly reports, monthly reports and yearly
                reports. Features to analyze your activities against
                your goals. And more...

brake.doc       About how to make yourown brake booster.

gtos91.doc      The story from The Great Trial of Strength 1991.

gtos92.doc      Ditto, but for the 1992 trail.

===========================================================================

Books and Magazines

  Magazines/Newsletters
  ---------
  Bicycling Magazine, and Bicycling Magazine+Mountain Bike insert
  33 E Minor St
  Emmaus, PA 18098
  (215) 967-5171

  Bicycle Guide
  711 Boylston Street
  Boston MA 02116
  617-236-1885
  
  Mountain Biking
  7950 Deering Avenue
  Canoga Park CA 91304
  818-887-0550
  
  Mountain Bike Action
  Hi-Torque Publications, Inc.
  10600 Sepulveda Boulevard
  Mission Hills, CA 91345
  818-365-6831
  
  Velo News
  P.O. Box 53397
  Boulder, CO 80323-3397

  Cycling Science
  P.O. Box 1510 
  Mount Shasta, California 96067 
  (916) 938-4411

  Human Power (The Journal of the IHPVA*)
  (* IHPVA == International Human Powered Vehicle Association)
  IHPVA
  PO 51255 
  Indianapolis, IN 46251-0255
  (317) 876-9478

  OnTour: The Newsletter for Bicycle Tourists 
  OnTour Publications
  2113 Arborview
  Ann Arbor, MI 48103.
  Sample issues are only $1, a six-issue subscription only $6
 
  R.B.C.A./The Recumbent Cyclist
  17650-B6-140th Ave. SE, Suite 341
  Renton, WA 98058 USA

  The Recumbent Bicycle Club of America
  427 Amherst St  Suite 305
  Nashua NH  03063  USA

  c r o s s w o r d s
  The Journal of Multi-Purpose, Multi-Terrain Bicycles
  P.O. Box 3207
  Walnut Creek, CA  94598
  Published Quarterly, single issues $1, 4-issue subscriptions $3
  (make checks payable to Mark Chandler/crosswords

  Tandem Club of America
  Malcolm Boyd & Judy Allison
  19 Lakeside Drive NW
  Medford Lakes, NJ  08550
  Dues are currently $10/year

  Dirt Rag
  5742 Third St. 
  Verona, PA
  (412) 795 - 7495
  FAX  (412) 795 - 7439


  Books
  -----
  Bicycling Magazine's Complete Guide to Bicycle Maintenance and Repair
  Rodale Press
  ISBN 0-87857-895-1

  Effective Cycling by John Forester
  MIT Press
  ISBN 0-262-56026-7

  The Bicycle Wheel by Jobst Brandt
  Avocet
  ISBN 0-9607236-2-5
	
  Bicycle Maintenance Manual by Eugene A. Sloan
  (a Fireside book, pub. Simon & Schuster, Inc.)
  ISBN 0-671-42806-3

  Anybody's Bike Book by Tom Cuthbertson

  Bicycles and Tricycles - A Treatise on their Design.
  By Archibald Sharp
  MIT Press  
  (reportedly written around 1899 or so, with lots of interesting
  information)

  Bicycle Road Racing by Edward Borysewicz

  The Woman Cycist by Elaine Mariolle
  Contemporary Books

  Touring on Two Wheels by Dennis Coello 
  Lyons and Berrfard, New York

  The Bicyclist's Sourcebook by Michael Leccese and Arlene Plevin
  Subtitled: "The Ultimate Directory of Cycling Information"
  Woodbine House, Inc.  $16.95
  ISBN 0-933149-41-7

  Colorado Cycling Guide by Jean and Hartley Alley
  Pruett Publishing Company
  Boulder, Colorado

  The Canadian Rockies Bicycling Guide by Gail Helgason and John Dodd
  Lone Pine Publishing,Edmonton, Alberta

  A Women's Guide to Cycling by Susan Weaver

  Favorite Pedal Tours of Northern California by Naomi Bloom
  Fine Edge Productions, Route 2, Box 303, Bishop, CA  93514

  Mountain Biking Near Boston: A Guide to the Best 25 Places to Ride
  by Stuart A. Johnstone, Active Publications (1991), ISBN 0-9627990-4-1

  Mountain Bike: a manual of beginning to advanced technique
  by William Nealy, Menasha Ridge Press, 1992, ISBN 0-89732-114-6

===========================================================================

Electronic Mailing lists

bicycles@bbn.com  A mailing list for bicycle enthusiasts.  Usually low
	traffic.  Send requests to bicycles-request@bbn.com to be added to
	the list.

tandem@hobbes.ucsd.edu  A mailing list for tandem bicycle enthusiasts.  
	Suitable topics include questions and answers related to tandem 
	componentry, riding technique, brands and equipment selection, 
	prices, clubs, rides and other activities, cooperating on a section 
	on tandems for the rec.bicycles.* FAQ, etc.

===========================================================================

Mail Order Addresses

Here's the addresses/phone numbers of some popular cycling mail order
outfits (you can get directory assistance for 800 numbers at 
1-800-555-1212 if you don't see the mail order outfit you're looking for
here):

Branford Bike
  orders:  1-800-272-6367
  info:      203-488-0482
  fax:       203-483-0703


Colorado Cyclist
  orders:  1-800-688-8600
  info:      719-576-3474
  fax:       719-576-3598
  
  2455 Executive Circle
  Colorado Springs, CO 80906


Cyclo-Pedia 
  (800) 678-1021

  P.O. Box 884 
  Adrian MI  49221
    Catalog $1 as of 4/91.


Excel Sports International
  orders:  1-800-627-6664
  info:      303-444-6737
  fax:       303-444-7043
  
  3275 Prairie Ave. #1
  Boulder, CO  80301


Nashbar
  orders:  1-800-627-4227  (1-800-NASHBAR)
             216-782-2244  Local and APO/FPO orders
  info:      216-788-6464  Tech. Support
  fax:       800-456-1223
  
  4111 Simon Road
  Youngstown, OH 44512-1343


Performance Bike Shop
  orders:  1-800-727-2453  (1-800-PBS-BIKE)
             919-933-9113  Foreign orders
  info:      800-727-2433  Customer Support
  fax:       
  
  One Performance Way
  P.O. Box 2741
  Chapel Hill, NC 27514


Schwab Cycles
  orders:  1-800-343-5347
  info:      303-238-0243
  fax:       303-233-5273
  
  1565 Pierce St.
  Lakewood, CO  80214


The Womyn's Wheel, Inc.
  (Specializes in clothing and equipment for women)
  603-926-4939

  540 Lafayette Rd.
  Suite 7
  Hampton NH 03842

===========================================================================
Posting Guidelines

The rec.bicycles subgroups are described below - please try to post your
article to the appropriate group.  The newsgroups were designed to minimize
cross posting, so please take the time to think about the most appropriate
newsgroup and post your article there. 

rec.bicycles.marketplace: Bicycles, components, ancillary equipment and
   services wanted or for sale, reviews of such things, places to buy
   them, and evaluations of these sources.  Not for discussion of general
   engineering, maintenance, or repair -- see rec.bicycles.tech.

rec.bicycles.tech: Techniques of engineering, construction, maintenance
   and repair of bicycles and ancillary equipment.  Not for products or
   services offered or wanted -- see rec.bicycles.marketplace.

rec.bicycles.rides: Discussions of tours and training or commuting routes.
   Not for disussion of general riding techniques -- see rec.bicycles.misc.

rec.bicycles.soc: Social issues, cycling transportation advocacy, laws,
   conduct of riders and drivers; road hazards such as potholes, dogs, and
   sociopaths.

rec.bicycles.racing: Race results, racing techniques, rules, and
   organizations.  Not racing equipment -- see rec.bicycles.marketplace
   or rec.bicycles.tech.

rec.bicycles.misc:  General riding techniques, rider physiology,
   injuries and treatment, diets, and other cycling topics.

===========================================================================

General Information

Road Gradient Units (Jeff Berton jeff344@voodoo.lerc.nasa.gov)

The grade of an incline is its vertical rise, in feet, per every 100 horizontal
feet traversed.  (I say "feet" for clarity;  one could use any consistent
length measure.)  Or, if you will accept my picture below,

                                                 *
                                              d  |
                                          a      |
                                      o          | y
                                  R  Theta       |
                              *___)______________|
                                        x
then
      Grade = y/x        (Multiply by 100 to express as a percentage.)
and
      Theta = arctan(y/x)

So a grade of 100% is a 45 degree angle.  A cliff has an infinite grade.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ball Bearing Grades  (Bill Codding  peda@simplicity.Stanford.EDU)
                     (Harry Phinney harry@hpcvlx.cv.hp.com)


Following is a description of the different grades of ball bearings.
The grade specifies the sphericity of the balls in millionths of an inch.
Thus, grade 25 are round to 25/10^6, while grade 1000 are good to 1/1000
(i.e.  not all that round, but probably good enough for our uses).

   Grade 25: the highest quality normally available, aka
      "Campagnolo quality": hardened all the way through, best
      alloys, coatings, roundness, and durability.  Evidently,
      a recent bottom-bracket overhaul article in "Bicycling Plus
      Mountain Bike" magazine recommended these.  Campy's tech reps 
      claim that the bearings in a set (usually in a little paper bag) 
      are matched.  One should not mix bearings from different sets.

   Grade 200: mid-range

   Grade 1000: seems to be the lowest, may only be surface
      hardened.

Good sources for ball bearings:

   Your local bike shop (make sure you're getting the grade you want)
   Bike Parts Pacific
   Bike Nashbar  1-800-NASHBAR    ($1-$3 per 100 Grade 25)
   The Third Hand 1-916-926-2600  ($4-$7 per 100 Grade 25)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tour de France Jerseys  (Chris Murphy   murphyc@bionette.CGRB.ORST.EDU)

Chauner and Halstead (1990) in "The Tour de France Complete Book of Cycling"
explain:

YELLOW Jersey -- Overall leader, first awarded during the 1919 race (TdF
       started in 1903); yellow to match the paper used to print L'Auto
       (Automobile Cyclisme), a French newspaper about bike racing.

POLKADOT Jersey (White w/red dots) -- Best climber, determined by points
         scored by the first 3 to 15 riders finishing selected mountain
         stages (number of riders awarded points varies with the
         difficulty of the stage). First awarded 1933.

GREEN Jersey -- Points jersey, usually won by sprinter-types, with points
      given to the first 25 riders to finish each stage. First awarded 1953.

YELLOW Hats -- First place team, determined by combined elapsed times of the
       the team's top 3 riders.

In the event of a rider leading the race and also deserving one of the other
jerseys, the race leader wears yellow, and the 2nd place in the category wears
the category jersey.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Major Tour Winners 1947-1990  (Tim Smith tsmith@gryphon.CTS.COM)

[Ed note:  I'm hoping Tim won't be too upset if I add to the list he posted.
I need some help filling in the last few years.]

Winners of the Big Three National Tours -- Since 1947:

	Tour de France		Giro d'Italia		Vuelta d'Espana
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
1947	Jean Robic (F)		Fausto Coppi (I)	E. van Dyck (B)
1948	Gino Bartali (I)	F. Magni (I)		B. Ruiz (E)
1949	Fausto Coppi (I)	F. Coppi		(not held)
1950	Ferdi Kubler (CH)	Hugo Koblet (CH)	E. Rodriguez (E)
1951	Hugo Koblet (CH)	F. Magni		(nh)
1952	Fausto Coppi		F. Coppi		(nh)
1953	Louison Bobet (F)	F. Coppi		(nh)
1954	Louison Bobet		C. Clerici (CH)		(nh)
1955	Louison Bobet		F. Magni		J. Dotto (F)
1956	Roger Walkowiak (F)	Charly Gaul (L)		A. Conterno (I)
1957	Jacques Anquetil (F)	Gastone Nencini (I)	J. Lorono (E)
1958	Charly Gaul (L)		E. Baldini (I)		Jean Stablinski (F)
1959	Federico Bahamontes (E)	Charly Gaul		A. Suarez (E)
1960	Gastone Nencini (I)	Jacques Anquetil (F)	F. de Mulder (B)
1961	Jacques Anquetil	A. Pambianco (I)	A. Soler (E)
1962	Jacques Anquetil	F. Balmamion (I)	Rudy Altig (D)
1963	Jacques Anquetil	F. Balmamion		J. Anquetil (F)
1964	Jacques Anquetil	Jacques Anquetil	Raymond Poulidor (F)
1965	Felice Gimondi (I)	V. Adorni (I)		R. Wolfshohl (D)
1966	Lucien Aimar (F)	Gianni Motta (I)	F. Gabica (E)
1967	Roger Pingeon (F)	Felice Gimondi (I)	J. Janssen (NDL)
1968	Jan Janssen (NDL)	Eddy Merckx (B)		Felice Gimondi (I)
1969	Eddy Merckx (B)		Felice Gimondi		Roger Pingeon (F)
1970	Eddy Merckx		Eddy Merckx		Luis Ocana (E)
1971	Eddy Merckx		Gosta Petersson (S)	F. Bracke (B)
1972	Eddy Merckx		Eddy Merckx		J-M Fuente (E)
1973	Luis Ocana (E)		Eddy Merckx		Eddy Merckx (B)
1974	Eddy Merckx		Eddy Merckx		J-M Fuente
1975	Bernard Thevenet (F)	F. Bertoglio (I)	Tamames (E)
1976	Lucien van Impe (B)	Felice Gimondi		J. Pesarrodona (E)
1977	Bernard Thevenet	Michel Pollentier (B)	Freddy Maertens (B)
1978	Bernard Hinault (F)	J. de Muynck (B)	Bernard Hinault (F)
1979	Bernard Hinault		Giuseppe Saronni (I)	Joop Zoetemelk (NDL)
1980	Joop Zoetemelk (NDL)	Bernard Hinault (F)	F. Ruperez (E)
1981	Bernard Hinault		Giovanni Battaglin (I)	Giovanni Battaglin (I)
1982	Bernard Hinault		Bernard Hinault		Marino Lejarreta (E)
1983	Laurent Fignon (F)	Giuseppe Saronni (I)	Bernard Hinault (F)
1984	Laurent Fignon		Francesco Moser (I)	Eric Caritoux (F)
1985	Bernard Hinault		Bernard Hinault		Pedro Delgado (E)
1986	Greg Lemond (USA)	Roberto Visentini (I)	Alvaro Pino (E)
1987	Stephen Roche (EIR)	Stephen Roche (EIR)	Luis Herrera (Col.)
1988	Pedro Delgado (E)	Andy Hampsten (USA)	Sean Kelly (EIR)
1989    Greg Lemond (USA)	Laurent Fignon (F)	Pedro Delgado (E)
1990    Greg Lemond (USA)	Guanni Bugno (I)	Marco Giovanetti (I)
1991    Miguel Indurain (E)	Franco Chioccioli (I)	Melchior Mauri (E)

The Tour started in 1903, and was not held 1915-1918 and 1940-1946.
The Giro started in 1909, and was not held 1915-1918 and 1941-1945.

Source: 1947-1982: "La Fabuleuse Histoire du Cyclisme" by Pierre Chany.
        1982-1988: my fallible memory. Would someone complete 1983 and
	1984, and correct any mistakes? Thanks.

One interesting observation: almost all the winners of the Tour were
big names in their time (yes, even Charly Gaul and Jean Robic.)

There were no same-year winners of the Tour and the Giro before 1949.
In fact, the first year a non-Italian won the Giro was 1950.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bike Trailers

[Ed note:  The posting I saved on bike trailers is over 145k bytes, so
if you want a copy see the section on "Archives".]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

One Less Car T-Shirts  (Alayne McGregor  alayne@gandalf.UUCP)
                       (Ed Ravin  panix!eravin@cmcl2.nyu.edu)

The T-shirts are produced by Transportation Alternatives, a New York
City bicycle activist group. They're 100% cotton, have the TA logo
on the front, and ONE LESS CAR on the back.  Call TA for colors and
sizes currently in stock.  They're US$15 each.  No refunds or
exchanges.  Allow 6 weeks for delivery.  For people who have to
drive but feel guilty about it, they also have "I'm Polluting the 
Atmosphere" bumper stickers at 3 for $5.

Send orders to:

Transportation Alternatives
92 Saint Marks Place
New York, NY 10009
USA
attn: One Less Car

I happen to have one of these shirts in my closet right now. Causes lots
of comments when my covivant and I ride our tandem with both us wearing
our shirts.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Panniers and Racks  (Sharon Pedersen  pedersen@cartan.berkeley.edu)

This is a condensed version of a longer article on panniers, low-rider
racks, loading and generators.	--Sharon   pedersen@cartan.berkeley.edu

			     --PANNIERS--
Price--cheaper may not be better, if they fall apart.  Commuting to
school entails stuffing sharp-cornered books into them thus making
sturdiness as important here as for touring.

Cut--an angled cut may make those books not fit so well.

Pockets--convenient for organization, but cuts down on versatile use
of space.  You can use stuff sacks for organization instead of pockets.
One big and one small pocket on each pannier is plenty.

Fastening--lots of options:  bungees and hooks, or fixed placement
hooks, or straps with buckles or cams.  Bungees and hooks have been
just fine in my own road experience, but for off-road riding, you will
want more security.  However, don't get a system with so many
attachments that you can't stand to take the panniers on/off.

Brands--the following is a by no means exhaustive list, with
telegraphic comments made in 1988.  Check local stores since features
may have changed since then.
  Eclipse--(no comment);  Kirtland--tourers like them;
  MPacks--panniers made by an actual bike tourer, Mike Center, in
    Santa Rosa, CA, (707) 545-4624;
  Maddens--made in Boulder, "superior construction at better than
    average cost" yeah!  (I love mine, write for more glowing testimonials);
  Performance--low-cost, non-spring attachment;  Rhode Gear--expensive;
  Tailwind--aerodynamic, rigid attachment.

			 --LOW-RIDER RACKS--
  Some manufacturers: Bruce Gordon, Blackburn, Vetta, Voyager.  The
Bruce Gordons are more expensive (~$70 in 1988) but are designed with
clearance for the quick-release skewer so you don't have to pry them
apart to take the front wheel off.

			    --REAR RACKS--
  (No comment in the original article;  Blackburns seem to be the
standard and durable enough.)

			     --LOADING--
  Balance the load side-to-side and, if possible, fore-and-aft.
Keep heavier items low and towards the bottom bracket.  Rider, bike
and luggage together should have 55-60% of weight on rear wheel;
remainder on front.  Bike with front low-riders is quite stable.

			    --GENERATORS--
  The usual location on the left seat-stay interferes with panniers.
Mount the generator on the right seat-stay facing the other way, and
it will work fine, despite rotating "backwards."  Or go with a
generator under the bottom bracket, which will have the advantage of
putting the wear on the tread rather than the sidewall of the tire.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Helmets

The wearing of helmets is another highly emotional issue that has been
debated many times on rec.bicycles.  On one side, you have the cyclists
who feel that they can do without - the helmet is too hot, uncomfortable,
or they feel they just don't need it.  On the other side, you have
the cyclists who wouldn't be caught riding without a helmet - they like
their head (and brains) they way they are.

Statistics show that three-fourths of the more than 1000 bicycling
deaths each year are caused by head injuries.  Of those killed, half
are school age children.  According to one study, a helmet can reduce
the risk of head injury by 85%.

Consumer Reports did a review of bicycle helmets in the May 1990 issue.
While their report is not what one would see in a cycling magazine,
it does contain some useful and valuable information.  Their tests
showed that no-shell helmets work just as well as hard-shell helmets,
and in fact, the top 9 helmets in their ratings are no-shell models.

There is some controversy about whether no-shell helmets "grab" the
pavement instead of sliding on impact.  If the helmet grabbed, it
might lead to more serious neck or spinal injury.  This topic has
been hotly debated in rec.bicycles, and some studies are in progress
to see if this is true.

There are two standards systems for helmets - ANSI (American National
Standards Institute) and Snell (the Snell Memorial Foundation).  The
Snell tests are more demanding than ANSI, and a Snell-certified helmet
will have a green Snell sticker inside.  Some helmets claim they
pass Snell, but unless there's a sticker in the helmet, you can't
be sure.  Snell also tests samples of certified helmets to make sure
they still meet the standards.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clothing materials  (Jim Carson  carson@mu.rice.edu)

[Ed note: From a summary Jim posted]

Polarlite
  Fluffy, fleecy stuff also called Polarplus and Synchilla.  Comfortable.
  Incredibly warm, especially under something that breaks the wind. 
  Doesn't wick moisture out very well.  Breathes very well.  

Supplex (nylon)
  Comfortable.  It is breathable and water repellent (but NOT water proof).  
  Seems to absorb a small amount of water if it is really getting drenched
  
Merino (wool)
  From a "breed of fine-wooled white sheep originating in Spain and producing
  a heavy fleece of exceptional quality."  I guess you could treat this as
  normal 100% wool.
  
Thermax
  An improvement on Polypro.  The big advantage is heat resistance so 
  you can put it in the dryer.  Balance that against the extra cost.
  
CoolMax
  This stuff seems more like a plastic bag than the revolutionary wicking
  material it is advertised as.
  
Dacron
  Trademark name for Dupont polyester.  Woven fabric made from dacron is 
  similar to nylon ripstop or taffeta, but not as stretchy.  Many of the
  better clothing insulations are made from dacron.  They are usually refered
  to by more specific trademark names, like quallofil, hollofil, polarguard,
  and dacron-88.
  
Lycra
  Used for its stretch, mostly a warm weather (>65 degrees) thing.

GoreTex
  A teflon based membrane with microscopic holes.  Gortex's claim to
  fame is that it will let water vapor (from perspiration) through, but
  not liquid water (rain).  It blocks wind fairly well too.  The
  membrane is delicate, so it always comes laminated between 2 layers of
  other material.  It does not breathe enough.  There are less expensive
  alternatives. 
  
Polypropylene
  Does not wick very well.  Can be uncomfortable.  Troublesome to 
  care for (e.g. can pill badly)  Will keep you fairly warm if soaked.  
  Not very wind resistant.  Melts in the dryer.
  
Capilene
  Wicks moisture away.  Very comfortable.  Comes in different weights
  for more/less warmth.  [lots of favorable things about it... only
  really unfavorable thing is the co$t]
  
60/40 cloth -  
  This is a cloth with nylon threads running one direction, cotton in
  the other. It was the standard wind parka material before Goretex came
  along, and is considerably less expensive.  Good wind resistance,
  fairly breathable.  Somewhat water resistant, especially if you spray
  it with Scotchguard, but won't hold up to a heavy rain. 
  
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Seats

Seats are a very personal thing, for obvious reasons.  There are several
types of seats:

Leather
  Seats like the Brooks models.  Usually used by hard-core riders.  Requires
  breaking in before it's really comfortable.

Padded
  The usual bike seat, sometimes refered to as "anatomic".  Has padding
  where your "sit bones" (bottom of pelvis) supposed to rest.

Gel
  Like the padded seats, except they have a gel (e.g. Spenco Gel) in them
  for additional padding.  Reportedly, the gel can harden and/or shift,
  making the seat uncomfortable.

There are several types of seat pads (gel filled, containing an air bladder,
etc) that can be fitted over the seat to make it more comfortable.

If you are experiencing pain in delicate areas (especially you women readers)
you should make sure your seat is adjusted correctly (see the section on
seat adjustment).  Women may need a women's type seat, which is wider in
the back (women's sit bones are farther apart than men's).  Most pain
can be eliminated by a correctly adjusted seat, using a women's seat,
and riding so your body becomes used to it.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

SIS Cable Info  (Jobst Brandt  jobst_brandt%40@hp1900.desk.hp.com)

After Joe Gorin described the SIS "non-compressive" cable housing to
me I got myself a sample to understand what the difference is.  I
believe "non-compressive" is a misnomer.  This cable housing is NOT
non-compressive but rather a constant length housing.  As far as I can
determine, and from reports from bike shops, this housing should not
be used for brakes because it is relatively weak in compression, the
principal stress for brake housing.

SIS housing is made of 18 strands of 0.5mm diameter round spring steel
wire wrapped in a 100mm period helix around a 2.5mm plastic tube.  The
assembly is held together by a 5mm OD plastic housing to make a
relatively stiff cable housing.  Because the structural wires lie in a
helix, the housing length remains constant when bent in a curve.  Each
strand of the housing lies both on the inside and outside of the curve
so on the average the wire path length remains constant, as does the
housing centerline where the control cable resides.  Hence, no length
change.  A brake cable housing, in contrast, changes length with
curvature because only the inside of the curve remains at constant
length while the outside (and centerline) expands.

Shimano recommends this cable only for shift control but makes no
special effort to warn against the danger of its use for brakes.  It
should not be used for anything other than shift cables because SIS
housing cannot safely withstand compression.  Its wires stand on end
and have no compressive strength without the stiff plastic housing
that holds them together.  They aren't even curved wires, so they
splay out when the outer shield is removed.  Under continuous high
load of braking, the plastic outer housing can burst leaving no
support.  Besides, in its current design it is only half as flexible
as brake cable because its outer shell is made of structurally stiff
plastic unlike the brake cable housing that uses a soft vinyl coating.

Because brake cables transmit force rather than position, SIS cable,
even if safe, would have no benefit.  In contrast, with handlebar
controls to give precise shift positioning, SIS housing can offer some
advantage since the cable must move though steering angles.  SIS
housing has no benefit for downtube attached shifters because the
cable bends do not change.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Terminology  (David Keppel  pardo@cs.washington.edu)
             (Charles Tryon  bilbo@bisco.kodak.com)

Ashtabula Crank
	A one-piece crank -- the crank arm starts on one side of the
	bike, bends to go through the bottom bracket, and bends
	again on the other side to go down to the other pedal.
	Typically heavy, cheap, and robust.  See ``cottered crank''
	and ``cotterless crank''.  Ashtabula is the name of the
	original manufacturer, I think.

Biopace Chainring

	Chainrings that are more oval rather than round.  The idea was
	to redistribute the forces of pedaling to different points as your 
	feet go around, due to the fact that there are "dead spots" in the
	stroke.  The concensus is pretty much that they work ok for
	novices, but get in the way for more experienced riders.

Cassette Freewheel

	A cassette freewheel is used with a freehub.  The part of
	a normal freewheel that contains the pawls that transfer
	chain motion to the wheel (or allows the wheel to spin
	while the chain doesn't move) is part of the wheel hub.
	The cassette is the cogs, usually held together with small
	screws.
	
Cleat

	A cleat attaches to the bottom of a cycling shoe.  Older style
	cleats have a slot that fits over the back of the pedal,
	and in conjunction with toe clips and straps, hold your foot
	on the pedal.  New "clipless" pedals have a specially designed
	cleat that locks into the pedal, sometimes with some ability
	to move side-to-side so as not to stress knees.

Cottered Crank
	A three-piece crank with two arms and an axle.  The arms
	each have a hole that fits over the end of the axle and a
	second hole that runs tangential to the first.  The crank
	axle has a tangential notch at each end.  A *cotter* is a
	tapered and rounded bar of metal that is inserted in the
	tangential hole in the crank arm and presses against the
	tangential notch in the crank axle.  The cotter is held in
	place by a nut screwed on at the thin end of the cotter.
	Ideally, the cotter is removed with a special tool.  Often,
	however, it is removed by banging on it with a hammer.  If
	you do the latter (gads!) be sure (a) to unscrew the nut
	until the end of the cotter is nearly flush, but leave it on
	so that it will straighten the threads when you unscrew it
	farther and (b) brace the other side of the crank with
	something very solid (the weight of the bike should be
	resting on that `something') so that the force of the
	banging is not transmitted through the bottom bracket
	bearings.

Cotterless Crank
	A three-piece crank with two arms and an axle.  Currently
	(1991) the most common kind of crank.  The crank axle has
	tapered square ends, the crank arms have mating tapered
	square ends.  The crank arm is pressed on and the taper
	ensures a snug fit.  The crank arm is drawn on and held in
	place with either nuts (low cost, ``nutted'' cotterless
	cranks) or with bolts.  A special tool is required to remove
	a cotterless crank.

Crank Axle
	The axle about which the crank arms and pedals revolve.  May
	be integrated with the cranks (Ashtabula) or a separate
	piece (cottered and cotterless).

Fender
	Also called a ``mudguard''.  Looked down upon by tweak
	cyclists, but used widely in the Pacific Northwest and many
	non-US parts of the world.  Helps keep the rider cleaner and
	drier.  Compare to ``rooster tail''.

Frame Table
	A big strong table that Will Not Flex and which has anchors
	at critical places -- dropouts, bottom bracket, seat, head.
	It also has places to attach accurate measuring instruments
	like dial gauges, scratch needles, etc.  The frame is clamped
	to the table and out-of-line parts are yielded into alignment.

High-Wheeler
	A bicycle with one large wheel and one small wheel.  The
	commonest are large front/small rear.  A small number are
	small front/large rear.  See ``ordinary'' or
	``penny-farthing'' and contrast to ``safety''.

Hyperglide Freewheel

	Freewheel cogs with small "ramps" cut into the sides of the cogs
	which tend to pull the chain more quickly to the next larger cog
	when shifting.

Ordinary
	See ``penny-farthing''.

Penny-Farthing
	An old-fashioned ``high wheeler'' bicycle with a large
	(60", 150cm) front wheel and a much smaller rear wheel, the
	rider sits astride the front wheel and the pedals are
	connected directly to the front wheel like on many
	children's tricycles.  Also called ``ordinary'', and
	distinguished from either a small front/large rear high
	wheeler or a ``safety'' bicycle.

Rooster Tail
	A spray of water flung off the back wheel as the bicycle
	rolls through water.  Particularly pronounced on bikes
	without fenders.  See also ``fender''.

Safety
	Named after the ``Rover Safety'' bicycle, the contemporary
	layout of equal-sized wheels with rear chain drive.  Compare
	to ``ordinary''.

Spindle
	See ``crank axle''.

Three-Piece Crank
	A cottered or cotterless crank; compare to Ashtabula.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maps  (Jim Carson  carson@rice.edu)

BikeCentennial maps are not free, but you can get them without joining.
To order stuff with Mastercard or Visa, you can call 1-800-933-1116 (24
hr).  Maps are currently (May 1991) $6.95 each to "non-members," $4.95
each to "members." There are also small discounts for sets of maps and
members in the continental US don't have to pay for surface shipping and
handling. 

Scale of the maps is generally 1" = 4mi/6.4km.  Certain areas are more
detailed when necessary.  I like the maps because they have lots of
interesting features labeled (campgrounds, grocery stores, major 
changes in elevation, historical info about the region,...), they're
printed on a water-resistant paper, and they fit nicely into a handlebar 
bag map case.

As of May '91, there are two and a half transcontinental (W-E) routes 
an east coast (N-S) route, a west coast route (N-S), and numerous routes 
among the various parks in the western U.S. and Canada.  [I say "2 1/2 
transcontinental routes" because the southern portion of the transcontinental
route from TX to FL is not in print though the maps are "done."]

Membership is $22/annually, and they have a lifetime membership available.

Members get copies of BikeCentennial's magazine, _BikeReport_, published 9 
times annually, a list of tours run by BikeCentennial, and the annual 
_The Cyclists' Yellow Pages_.  _The Cyclists' Yellow Pages_ provides
*LOTS* of interesting information on touring and points of contact for 
more information about cycling and touring all over the world.  (For
example, they have an arrangement with The Netherlands Service Center
for Tourism whereby you can purchase full-color, 21" x 38", 1:100k
scale, Dutch-language maps.)

BikeCentennial's address and phone:

	BikeCentennial
	(800) 933-1116, (406) 721-8719
	PO Box 8308		
	Missoula, MT 59807-9988

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Women's Saddles  (Pamela Blalock  pamela@keps.kodak.com)

Many women who cycle have experienced frustration with trying to find
a comfortable saddle. It is amazing how many times I have found myself
standing around after a ride talking with other women about saddles.
This article came from those discussions and an informal survey of
woman's saddle preferences. This is a dynamic article and changes on
occassion, so if you have comments please contact me
(pamela@keps.kodak.com) and I will incorporate your comments.

Just as women are different from men, we are also different from each
other.  Since (fortunately) there is no mold into which we were all
poured, what works for one woman may not work for another.

While this is an article on women's saddles, since so many other
things can contribute to potential saddle pain, it will also address
some of these issues as well.

First, insure that your bike fits properly.  Many women end up with
overly padded shorts and a big fat thickly padded saddle instead of
with a bike that fits. No saddle will be comfortable if the bike is
too big, or set up incorrectly. It is important to find someone who
knows about fit and specifically about women's fit and get the bike
set up properly before making other changes. It isn't always easy to
find someone willing to take the time, but when you find a shop that
will, give them lots of business and send your friends there!  In
addition to being more comfortable, a bike that really fits will also
handle better than one that is improperly sized.

Most production bikes are built proportionally for the average man.
Using the old guidelines of sizing a bike by straddling the top tube
may leave you a bike with a top tube that is too long. It is not
necessary to run out and buy a new bike right away if the top tube on
your current bike is too long. Using a shorter stem on a this bike may
give you a more comfortable reach. Very short stems, less than 40 mm,
are available, but may have to be special ordered.

Some shops use a fitting system called the Fit Kit. The numbers
generated from the Fit Kit are just guidelines and may not work for
everybody, especially women. It is important to RIDE your bike and
possibly make more adjustments to achieve a perfect fit. Others may
use an infinitely adjustable stationary bike. One has been developed
by Ben Serotta to help choose the perfect size bike - whether it is a
Serotta or not. Adjustable stems are available to help you and the
shop pick a perfect length stem the first time. Unless your current
bike is a really, really poor fit, you should be able to make a few
relatively inexpensive changes to improve the fit.  Then when
upgrading or buying a new bike, use what you have learned to buy a
bike that fits better.

One option is to simply select a bike with a shorter seat tube,
combined with a longer seatpost, to get a shorter top tube length.
This will work for taller women, but there is a limit of how short you
can make a top tube with two 700C wheels.  Several manufacturers have
started building bikes proportionally sized for women to specifically
address our needs.  For small women, these bikes may have a smaller
front wheel to get the shorter top tube, but not all women's bikes
have a 24" front wheel. Some have two 26" or 700C wheels, depending on
size and geometry.  In addition to a shorter top tube, women's bikes
may also have smaller brake levers, narrower handlebars, shorter
cranks and wider saddles.  Georgena Terry was the pioneer in this
area, but many other manufacturers now build women's bikes. They may
cost a little more than a comparably equipped man's bike, due to
higher production costs for fewer number of parts.  But, I believe
that the extra initial cost to get a properly fit bike will pay off in
the long run, since you will either stop riding an uncomfortable or
poorly fitting bike, or you will eventually replace the poorly fitting
parts at additional cost. Of course, as I said earlier, we are all
different and many women may not need any special adjustments made to
their non-custom off-the-shelf bikes.

Now to saddles. A woman's hip bones tend to be set farther apart than
a man's.  (This is a design feature to help with childbirth!)  Every
woman is different, and there are some women out there with narrower
hip bones. To determine where you sit bones are, sit on a low curb.
Sorry, a chair won't do! When you sit on the curb, you will ba able to
feel your sit bones. This is what you want supported by your bike
saddle. Avocet used to (and maybe still does) run a great ad showing a
hip bone sitting on a saddle.  With a saddle that's too narrow, a
woman may find herself straddling it, or slipping off of one side and
pinching nerves - which may eventually cause the legs or feet to go
numb. Of course, a saddle that's too wide may also cause problems. 

A saddle that's slightly wider in the back (than the man's saddle that
comes on most stock bikes) may offer better support for the sit bones.
I have quite a few retired women's saddles with depressed gel
indicating exactly where I my bones are, which for me is close to the
edge. Actually, looking at your old saddle will tell you a lot about
where you do and do not need support! It's important to try out
several different saddles to find one that fits.  Remember, we are all
different. Unfortunately no one manufacturer makes different sized
women's saddles - but the widths do vary from manufacturer to
manufacturer - so for example, if the Terry is too wide or too narrow,
try the Vetta or Avocet or some other brand. Ask your local dealer to
let you put your bike on a trainer in the shop and try sitting on and
riding a few of his saddles. Saddles are fairly easy to change and a
good shop should be willing to let you try this.

There are several women's saddles on the market, many of which are
made with some form of gel. I have used (and retired) several of these
with no complaints. The gel does compress after a while (regardless of
sex), so these saddles do have to be replaced (for me it's every
10,000 miles). 

Many women who responded to my survey said that they have the nose of
their saddle tilted slightly forward to alleviate pressure on the soft
tissue. A large variety of saddles were used with this method
including the Brooks leather. One rider pointed out that having a
seatpost with infinitely adjustable angles, like the American Classic,
will help one to find the perfect angle. With the rachet type
adjustment of most, she was never able to get the angle quite right.

One problem with having the saddle tilted too far forward is that you
may end up with two much weight/pressure on your wrists and hands. The
result is numb hands and pain in the lower back.

In John Forester's "Effective Cycling" book, he suggests getting a
cheap plastic saddle and carving out a depression in the area where
the labia would normally rest.  This would place the weight on the sit
bones where it belongs, and remove it from the genital area, where it
does not.

Two new saddles were introduced recently which specifically address
this issue, the Terry Women's and the Miyata Pavea. Both are shorter
and wider than the typical man's saddle and both have a hole in the
nose to suspend soft tissue. These saddles should be comfortable when
level. The Miyata leaves the hole exposed, while the Terry is covered
in an open-cell low-density foam.

I have used both the Terry and the Miyata. I've received lots of
positive comments from women (and men) about their experiences with
these saddles.  The men seem to notice the difference more after the
ride later in the evening :) :) :)

I recently completed a 750 mile ride on the back of a tandem in 85.5
hours. That's a lot of time on a saddle. I'd been using the Terry for
over 6 months and it worked great on everything up to 200 miles. But
400 miles into the trip, I was ready to rip the foam out of the hole.
Once the swelling started, the presence of the foam became unbearable.
Even though there was no plastic shell underneath, there was still
something! I asked our crew person to see if he could find the Miyata
saddle. It's often quite difficult to find women's products, and I was
almost shocked when he showed up 20 minutes later with this wonderful
saddle with an exposed hole. He had found the Miyata. The difference
was immediately noticeable. I probably would have finished the ride
without it, but I wouldn't have been in a good mood for days! The
Miyata is a little harder under the sit bones than the Terry, but
that's not where I was experiencing pain.  Of course the saddle is
different looking and draws lots of comments and sexual innuendos, but
it saved my ride.  My male tandem partner is now looking into making a
similar type modification to his saddle before our next really long
event.

Not all women like the wider saddles. Some women find all women's
saddles too wide.  Several women responded to the survey saying they
prefer a man's saddle. Some of these even felt they had wide hip
bones.  For those who use a narrow saddle, finding one that was flat
on top seemed to help with the above mentioned problems.  Others who
liked various women's saddles still found them a little thick in the
middle, even if they were the right width in the back. Terry has
announced a racing version of their saddle, which has a narrower nose.
This saddle was supposed to be available in June, 1992, but a
manufacturing problem has delayed its delivery to customers. I will
update this article as soon as I get to test ride one. Someday, maybe
we will see women's saddles in various widths. We must create the
demand though.

Other suggestions for improved saddle comfort including trying
different shorts. Shorts that bunch up in front may cause discomfort.
Shorts fit differently in and out of the saddle, so look down
while you are on the bike. Sprinkling powder in the shorts may help
keep you dry and saddle sore free on a warm day. A little vasoline may
also help with prevention or treatment of saddles sores.

I can't stress enough that each woman is different and no one saddle
is perfect for all of us. Just because a local or national racer, or
your friend, or *Pamela* uses a particular type of saddle doesn't mean
that it will work for you. Don't let anyone intimidate you into riding
something that is uncomfortable, or changing the angle of your saddle
because it's different. Use the setup that's most comfortable for you.

Among the saddles recommended by respondents were 
Terry Women's
Miyata Pavea
WaveFlo
Avocet Women's Racing saddle
Viscount saddle
San Marco Regal
women's Selle Italia Turbo
Brook's B-17
Brook's Pro

(Of course some women hated saddles that others raved about! Did I 
mention that we are all DIFFERENT)

Specialty women's products are available through The Womyn's Wheel,
540 Lafayette Rd, Suite 7, Hampton, NH, 03842-3344, phone
603-926-4939, or hopefully at your local bike shop - just keep asking
them!!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Women's Bikes  (Lynn Karamanos karamano@esd.dl.nec.com)

Here's a summary of the info I received on whether or not to
purchase a Terry bike.

1.) First, find a good bike shop, one that will try to find a bike 
that fits you, not just sell you what they have in stock.

2.) Ride many different bikes to see what's best for you.  You may be
able to find other bikes that fit just as well as a Terry once
you've made some adjustments/replacements (stem, crank arms, etc.).

3.) If you can't find any other bike to fit you, then a Terry's 
worth the extra money.  

4.) Except for about two people who sent me email, everyone who's 
ridden a Terry has loved it.  Even those two people said they knew 
others who loved Terry bikes.  Bottom line:  the fit depends on your 
build. Women with long legs/short torso seem to be the ones who like 
them, not necessarily just short women.  

5.) Also a few people mentioned that there are other road bikes that 
are specifically "designed for women" or that fit women well.  The 
names mentioned: Fuji, Miyata, Bridgestone, Specialized (Sirrus).  
Also, someone mentioned that the same production line in Japan that 
makes Terry "proportioned" bikes also makes them under other labels.
(Also one mountain bike was named, Mongoose Hilltopper, and two
hybred bikes, Univega Via Activa and Giant Inova.)

6.) Something to keep in mind if you buy a Terry with a small front
wheel... replacement tubes and tires for smaller wheels could be 
more difficult to find and/or more expensive.

7.) In case you're looking at older model Terry's, a few people 
mentioned that until a couple years ago, some Terry bikes were 
$200-$300 less than they are now.  

Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.misc