HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: twpierce@amhux1.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: UNGAY GAY ad report
Organization: Amherst College, Amherst MA
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 21:18:09 GMT

In article <1992Aug11.145022.4494@tc.cornell.edu> shore@theory.TC.Cornell.EDU (Melinda Shore) writes:

>In article <1992Aug11.124507.22780@mcs.gvsu.edu> orr@newton.mcs.gvsu.edu (Wes Orr {Academic Computing}) writes:
>
>>Sounds like you [arnold] and Ross Perot should be buddies.>
>
>Hon, if you can't read for content or write with content
>you should, at a very minimum, try to be amusing.

Are you kidding?  He's one of the most amusing things on soc.motss!
Better than Cappie Picard, for sure.

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / "Bisexual just means you pay for it."
\  / twpierce@amherst.edu      /  
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) /   -- Rock Hudson
From: adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: redefining masculinity
Date: 16 Aug 1992 23:53:54 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: mizar.usc.edu

In article <ja9mf_d.jfh@netcom.com> jfh@netcom.com (Jack Hamilton) writes:
> In article <l8ualaINNl84@mizar.usc.edu> 
> adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:
> >
> >I spent the better part of the afternoon on the phone with Jack
> >Hamilton (hi Jack!),
>
> On his nickel, I'm happy to say, although I did run up a few calls to the
> answering machine. 

And I can't figure out how to erase messages on this machine.
The friend whose house and cat I'm watching while she's out of
town might be a tad offended by a couple of the messages I received
(none, I hasten to add, from Jack).  Let's hope she has a sense
of humor about this.  (Somehow I doubt it.  Her cat's name is
Djuna, she has shelves filled with uncompromising lesbian
separatist tracts, her CD collection is all k.d. lang and Kitty
Wells and Patsy Cline, but she's got a *fantastic* collection of
video, and I've watched "Rope" and "The Cobweb" and "Written on
the Wind" and "Stella Dallas" and "Imitation of Life" (the Douglas
Sirk-Lana Turner version) while I've been here.)

> >Jack observed that my voice reminds him of someone else's, but he
> >can't quite place who that might be.  I replied that I certainly
> >don't have any idea, and besides, I hate the sound of my voice.
> >...if there's one thing I could change about myself, I think it 
> >would be my voice.  
>
> I wonder how common this feeling is.  I've certainly heard the same
> sentiment expressed by other people. 

I'm sure it's very common.

> For what it's worth, I think Arne has a quite pleasant voice, and I
> wouldn't recommend that he change it. 

<Blush again>  Thank you.

> >... if I were to change
> >the sound of my voice, I'd want to sound like John Kerr (the
> >dreamboat in the movie version of South Pacific), which is to
> >say faggotty but deep  ....
>
> Unfortunately, making your voice deeper is very difficult.  I've heard that
> it's very hard on the vocal chords, much harder than raising it. 

I *really* wouldn't want my voice to be higher.  And I'll admit that 
I do sometimes lower my voice, but it's not very comfortable so I
let it drift back up the scale.

> I'd like to get my southern accent back.

What makes you think you lost it?

Arne

Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: twpierce@amhux1.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: Disproving homophobia
Organization: Amherst College, Amherst MA
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 16:34:00 GMT

In article <17517@autodesk.COM> booter@Autodesk.COM (Elaine Richards) writes:

>In article <l92gliINNh43@mizar.usc.edu> adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:
>
>>In article <1992Aug18.175103.16357@amhux2.amherst.edu> 
>>twpierce@amhux1.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) writes:
>>
>>> What's the "proof" that someone is [homophobic]?
>>
>>If he refuses to kiss me on the mouth in a social setting.
>
>What if you have really bad onion breath that day?

Then he's homophobic and has no taste.

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / "I don't know how much support NAMBLA
\  / twpierce@amherst.edu      /  has in the gay community."
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) /   -- Clayton Cramer, August 1992
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From:  David Christopher Rogers <drogers@riacs.edu>
Subject: Re: Utopia (was Re: mandatory service)
Originator: drogers@solstice.riacs.edu
Organization: RIACS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 18:21:21 GMT

Jess said: 
>   Utopia is so simple, if you work at it!  :-) It's all a
>   matter of giving and getting; our trouble is we want to do
>   the getting without doing the giving. 

[I read this first, and its presciption for utopia reminded me of the 
old saw about how to succeed at playing the stock market:  
"buy low, sell high".  Robert replies to Jess:]

    Message-ID: <ROBERTL.92Aug13022443@luciano.Stanford.EDU> 
    From: robertl@luciano.Stanford.EDU (Robert Lodenkamper)

    >My purpose wasn't just to snipe at Jess's proposal --- even though it
    >is, like all utopias, a tempting target.
    >
    >Instead I want to emphasize that Jess's utopia, the communist utopia,
    >the libertarian utopia, the socialist utopia, the benevolent dictator
    >utopia and any others I've forgotten all fail for the same reason ---
    >they ignore human nature.  

Or more to the point, they ignore the "fundamental aspect of human
nature" that YOU find important.  In fact, each of them purports to 
use some aspect of human nature to achieve their goals, and gets hoist
by some other inconvenient aspect.

The United States has a fascinating history of attempted Utopian 
dreams, and the reason most do not turn out as expected has less to
do with ignorance of human nature as with the breadth of human nature:
our violence, our love, our self-interest, our altruism, our refusal
to learn the obvious and our desire to know all, are difficult to 
span in one philosophy.

The modern world has focused on the search for economic utopias, 
which I find rather curious, given what I see is relative physical
wealth and spiritual poverty.  The idea that more material wealth will 
solve our social ills is the current failing utopian dream.

David Christopher Rogers
From: joelp@cs.man.ac.uk (Joel Parthemore || Pharos Project)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: the rescuers, oops
Summary: transposition of names leads to profound embarrassment
Keywords: rescue, waterfall
Date: 13 Aug 92 23:48:53 GMT


 I write:

 >markm@ogicse.ogi.edu (Mark Morrissey) writes:

 >>In article <joelp.713659614@cs.man.ac.uk> joelp@cs.man.ac.uk (Joel Parthemore || Pharos Project) writes:
 >>>markm@ogicse.ogi.edu (Mark Morrissey), the Great Rescuer, writes:
 >>                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 >>I think that Todd gets this distinction.  After all, he is the one who
 >>treaded (very cold) water while parts of his body turned blue and went
 >>into hiding.  I merely get brownie points for working vigorously on
 >>inproving your circulation.   :-)

 >Hmm, did you?  I *must* have been in more shock than I thought.  (I do
 >remember you being *very* thorough about checking for broken bones, dilated
 >pupils, nausea, and sternly preventing me from moving as quickly as I
 >initially wanted to).

 >Trey deserves his own special distinction.  But since I haven't yet responded
  ^^^^
 >to any of his posts (having just made it back to soc.motss land), I'm not sure
 >what title is appropriate.

 Apologies to Todd.  I'm not sure what came over me.

 Joel,
         feeling sheepish
From: fjvwing@cs.vu.nl (FJ!!)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Redefining masculinity
Date: 21 Aug 92 08:50:11 GMT

I think there are some assumptions that Bob is making that havn't
explicitely spelled out.

Bob, do you believe that what you call 'flamboyant gays' are flamboyant
because they want to deliberately upset straight society? If not
totally, do you think that that is a major big component in their
motivation to be flamboyant?

Do you believe that if you get freaked out by me wearing one red and
one green sock, you being upset is my responsability?

							FJ!!
From: pentangl@spdcc.com (Scott Moir)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Too straight looking to be gay??? (was re: UNGAY GAY)
Date: 20 Aug 92 11:50:57 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1992Aug20.115057.11807
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <1992Aug20.012058.5470@microsoft.com> bobsarv@microsoft.com (Bob Sarver) writes:
>
>Mlle dyer,

*chuckle* You have obviously never seen him. Even a pic.

> mlle hughes, & mlle twpierce:

These two either. :)

>I bet another masc. gay friend that none of the net queens on soc.motss
>would be able to offer coherent counterarguments.  He believed,
>however, that you would be able to contain yourselves and post something 
>of value.  

I find this kind of hard to believe. You have no concept on who is on the
other side of the screen, so you don't know who is queeny or butch other
than assumptions based on what they write. You are making the indirect
assertion that by being 'out' on soc.motss that people are by default
queeny. You also lump anyone who disagrees with you into the queen category
as well.

Maybe you should get out in the real world more often. The closet doesn't
get a whole lot of sun.

>Oh, and as for you three ladies and me "on top":  
>There isn't a nickel's worth of difference between any of you and an
>actual woman; (of course there isn't; you like it that way).

An actual woman? Gee, you sound like you are talking as if gays were
poor substitutes. Honey, when you and your butchyfriends get sweaty, 
do you both top? Must be interesting....

>Given the choice, I'd still opt for a real lady instead of 
>any of you three "wannabe's".  Even I have *some* standards.

You have the choice, dear. Stay het and just admire the men from a
distance. That is, after all what you are doing now anyway.

Scott

-- 
Scott Moir / Pentangle / Satyr ______ # "There's really only one requirement 
pentangl@Ursa-Major.spdcc.com  \ \/ / #  for a Prophet, and you've got it."
B4 f t+ w g k+(+) s+ m r p+     \/\/  # "What's that?"
These are my opinions, not SPDCC's    # "A mouth." - 'God' to J.R.'BoB' Dobbs
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: elle@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Ellen Keyne Seebacher)
Subject: Re: Introduction
Reply-To: elle@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 23:02:30 GMT

lovegod@wam.umd.edu (Lovegod) writes: 
>...it's quite obvious that we may not have anything else in common
>but Cole Porter and having sex with other guys.

Beg pardon?  Did someone say "stealth lesbians"?

No, I suppose that was a different thread.

--
Ellen Keyne Seebacher            elle@midway.uchicago.edu
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: amz@iguana.cis.ohio-state.edu (Arnold M Zwicky)
Subject: Re: International Male
Followup-To: soc.motss
Summary: fagginess, si; soft porn, ok
Organization: out in linguistics
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 22:25:21 GMT

of course, utterly unfaggy models in im would be an error; the
percentage of gay men who need to fantasize that their objects of lust
are truly straight, though it is not negligible, is certainly not
huge, and such men have plenty of other catalogs to drool over, many
of them even showing smiling hunky daddies and their athletic sons
standing together hip to hip in their underwear.

and why this dripping of acid on soft porn?  (not you, mike, honey.)
life is not all _carnival in rio_, which by the way i have found, and
my dick thanks me for it.  there is a place for many kinds of porn.
sometimes the gentle frisson of arousal is all one wants.  sometimes
one would rather not confront random visitors with the full frontal
effect of, say, tom of finland, where an im catalog quietly shrieking
FAG on one's coffee table would not be taken badly, and might even
be enjoyed in parts.  

arnold (who has seen unredeemable-for-him porn, but not a lot)
From: roger@quantime.co.uk (Roger Phillips)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: redefining masculinity
Keywords: SULLEN, CHILDHOOD
Date: 17 Aug 92 23:54:39 GMT
Reply-To: roger@quantime.co.uk (Roger Phillips)
Organization: Quantime Ltd, London (software for market research)

In article <l901tlINN1ps@mizar.usc.edu>,
adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:
> Yes, I had something of the same urge to enunciate *very*
> clearly when I was a kid.  Part of it had to with the fact
> that my mother is significantly hard of hearing so I *had* to
> for her to be able to read my lips, and part of it had to do 
> with the hideous Great Plains accent they have that I didn't 
> want to catch from them.

I've got over a lot of my prejudice against the New Zealand accent.
I spoke to my mother last month
(for the first time in a few years - it was her birthday),
and she sounded more kiwi than ever
(and, oddly, she sounded about 19 years old),
and I found the accent rather relaxing.

> If my voice doesn't give me away, my walk does.  It's
> those years of dance class.

Although the ballet classes were my mother's idea,
I guess it was the faggot in me
that took pride in *doing* *my* *best* at them.
If I'd been a Real Terror, I'd have sabotaged them.

> > [My [Roger's] screen background today is tiled with glasses,
> You've *tiled* that .gif?  Eeeeeeeks!

Just the glasses, cropped and mirror-tiled into a spectacular string.

> > through which Arne stares at me balefully.
> *Balefully*?!  I'm really a sweet-tempered guy, you know.

But there's a defensive glower in the eyes on my screen.

> > I wonder what his voice sounds like.]
> I believe it's been described as euphonious.

You?  "Phoney-ass"?  Shirley nut!
-- 
Roger Phillips                            roger@quantime.co.uk
"dick, (slang) n. fine words (for *dictionary*):  also for *declaration*,
as _to take one's dick_, and prob. _up to dick_, excellent (up to
declared value)." -- Chambers English Dictionary (1988)
From: drp@dosbears.UUCP (David R. Preston)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: mandatory service (was Re: Metzenbaum introduces Senate bill to end military ban)
Date: 12 Aug 92 05:34:27 GMT
Reply-To: drp@dosbears.uucp
Organization: DosBears

In article <1992Aug12.033954.28682@reed.edu> nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar) writes:
>In article <1358@dosbears> drp@dosbears.uucp writes:
>>jojo writes:
>>>I think everyone should serve in the army for a year unless they are
>>>a concientious objector in which case they are forced to fill
>>>potholes in Boston roads for a few months.
>>Sounds OK to me.
>
>there's a word for this system. It's called slavery.
>or are you and Jojo volunteering to serve first?

No, we're both, safely, too old. Are you registered with
selective service, dear?

BTW, my cuddle-bear, who was, uh, *invited* to program computers
for Uncle Sam during the Vietnam unpleasantness, and whose father
was career military, says that one of the most immediate side-effects
of Truman's integration of the military wrt black people, was that
it suddenly became much easier for black people to get housing in
cities near large military bases. I suppose we might see the same
thing wrt same-sex couples in similar locales.

--
         David R. Preston   drp@dosbears.uucp dosbears@netcom.com
              Information gladly given but safety requires
               the avoidance of unnecessary conversation.
            D. R. Preston 584 Castro St. #614 SF CA 94114 USA
From: pwf2@hpmwtd.sr.hp.com (Joe Ballantyne)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 22:09:13 GMT
Subject: Gay scene in Boise?
Organization: HP Santa Rosa Site (NMD MTA MWTD)
Newsgroups: soc.motss

Hi there,

A friend of mine is considering the possibility of a company transfer to
Boise, Idaho; she doesn't have access to notes (except to read my machine),
so I would like to solicit information on the gay scene in that area of the
country (if there is any!).  Much of what I've heard indicates a high degree
of conservatism; what's the scoop?  Many thanks.

   
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: seeking info on Imlac Composer
Date: 21 Aug 92 14:25:49 GMT
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison


In article <1992Aug21.123910.15693@panix.com> mara@panix.com
(Mara Chibnik) writes:

>anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:

> >(Note well, Nelson, only software can be queer without being
> > gay, lesbian, or bi. :-)

>I resemble that remark.

*The* saving grace!

-- 
Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin
Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson
NeXTmail w/attachments: anderson@yak.macc.wisc.edu  Bitnet: anderson@wiscmacc
Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: hsu@sp24.csrd.uiuc.edu (William Tsun-Yuk Hsu)
Subject: Re: Redefining masculinity
Organization: UIUC Center for Supercomputing Research and Development
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 92 05:05:30 GMT

Bob Sarver writes:

>In the process, of course, they have to slam and tear the normal-acting, 
>masculine gays who need no such redefinition.  

Hey, how about the abnormal-acting, masculine gays? And the abnormal-acting,
feminine gays?

Bill
From: nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Citizen Cohn
Date: 20 Aug 92 07:43:12 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Aug20.074312.5153
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR

In article <19920820002011ECL4JN2@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU> ECL4JN2@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU (Jack B. Nimble) writes:
>Premiering this Saturday on HBO as a made-for-cable movie is _Citizen
>Cohn_, a biographical movie starring James Woods as Roy Cohn

hmm, sounds like it might be interesting, even if it is made for
cable.  Has anyone read the book Citizen Cohn? Is it good?

>He was chummy with J. Edgar Hoover

one wonders exactly HOW chummy..
-- 
                __
nelson@reed.edu \/                         I can live forever in formaldehyde
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: jfh@netcom.com (Jack Hamilton)
Subject: Re: gay liberation
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 04:44:17 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <1992Aug17.080351.6841@reed.edu> nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar) 
writes:
>
>When I was first realizing I was gay, I had the help of a well
>intentioned but not perfect high school counselor. He gave me this
>weird book to read titled "Straight talk about homosexuality for
>straight readers". 

You read that book!?  (When is the interrobang going to be added to the
ASCII character set?)  A friend of mine and I spent hours giggling over it,
particularly the description of a typical homosexual love scene: 

   A:  Shove it deeper, master!
   B:  Take it, you bitch! 

We both agreed that if anyone every used either of those lines on us, we
would get up and leave, just as soon as we stopped laughing.

The thought that anyone might have taken that book seriously is really 
frightening. 

-- 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Hamilton   jfh@netcom.com   P. O. Box 281107   SF, CA   94128-1107
From: adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Gay Homophobia (was Re: Too straight looking to be gay???) (was re: UNGAY GAY)
Date: 15 Aug 1992 12:08:45 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: mizar.usc.edu

In article <#-7mta.jfh@netcom.com> jfh@netcom.com (Jack Hamilton) writes:
>In article <l8ohfjINN595@mizar.usc.edu> 
> adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:
> >In article <1992Aug14.172701.3835@microsoft.com> 
> >bobsarv@microsoft.com (Bob Sarver) writes, in one of 
> >the most homophobic articles I've ever seen on soc.motss:
>
> I think you have a short memory, but it certainly was homophobic.  I kept
> thinking "This is some sort of parody; pretty soon he'll get to the punch
> line", but the punch line never came.  Can he actually believe what he
> wrote?  I think he's more to be pitied than scorned.  Pitied and ignored,
> that is.  I'm coming around to the view that it's not our responsibility to
> educate these people.

It absolutely is *not* our responsibility to educate anyone about
anything.  I suppose I should point out that I'm much more disturbed
by gay homophobes than I am by the garden-variety straight phobes.
And I don't feel pity for them -- I *hate* them.

> >>I have met many gay men, handsome, masculine, and closeted--and they will
> >>probably stay that way forever. Why? Because the once-a-year trip to a gay
> >>function or gay bar reinforces their fears of being surrounded by nelly,
> >>campy gays that are embarassing and fringe radicals.
> >
> >That paragraph is unspeakably vile.
>
> Arne, how did you decide to single out that particular paragraph as
> unspeakably vile?  Personally, I thought the next paragraph was much more 
> vile. 

I was -- am -- offended by this asshole's refusal to own up to his
homophobia and by his attempt to blame the uncloseted for keeping 
"handsome, masculine, and closeted" gay men in the closet.  (And what 
about the not so handsome closeted gay men?  Or the handsome but not 
so masculine closet cases?)  I don't have much patience for people
in the closet.  I never have had patience for them, and probably
never will.  That's an exaggeration, of course, for there have been
closeted lesbigays I *have* tried to ease ou t,but I refuse to 
take responsibility for anyone's closetedness.  

Arne
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: New queer terminology (was Re: The media, again)
Date: 17 Aug 92 11:17:15 GMT
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison


In article <ROBERTL.92Aug16221425@luciano.Stanford.EDU>
robertl@luciano.Stanford.EDU (Robert Lodenkamper) writes:

>Your version of queer sounds like nothing more interesting
>than callow young arrogance.

Nelson has (or is about to, I'm not all the way through this
morning's postings yet) recanted.  But let it be noted that
once in a while I can actually agree with a Republican!  :-)

-- 
Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin
Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson
NeXTmail w/attachments: anderson@yak.macc.wisc.edu  Bitnet: anderson@wiscmacc
Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888
From: klotz@lclark.edu (Gretchen Klotz)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Anti-discrimination clauses at work
Date: 20 Aug 92 18:26:42 GMT
Article-I.D.: lclark.1992Aug20.182642.11574
Organization: Lewis & Clark College, Portland OR

In article <1992Aug20.014140.26292@henson.cc.wwu.edu> n8442349@henson.cc.wwu.edu (The Matriarch) writes:
>
>	For the list of places of employment with anti-discrimination
>clauses:   I just recieved a copy of the harassment policy for
>Consolidated Electrical Distributors, Inc. where I work part-time.  As of
>July 24, 1992 (and possibly previously,) sexual orientation is included as
>a protected characteristic against which discrimination is prohibited. 

Yay!  And add Lewis & Clark College as well.  We *finally* got our staff
handbooks this month, and although I've been *told* that sexual orientation
was included in the anti-discrimination policy, I had never seen it in
print.  Now I have!  :-)

As Joy said, e-mail me if more information is needed for the list.

BB,

- Gretchen

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Gretchen Klotz		      Computing Services
              klotz@lclark.edu			Lewis & Clark College