From: gwydion@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Mercenary Programmer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic,soc.religion.islam,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: What is  H a m a s  ??
Date: 3 Jan 93 19:33:42 GMT
Article-I.D.: life.1i7f2mINN9m3
Followup-To: soc.religion.islam
Organization: Free Software Foundation
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Note: I am redirecting followups to soc.religion.islam.  This requires
an analysis that seems appropriate to SRI.  However, please note that
SRI is a moderated newsgroup and any subsequent discussion that strays
into politics or flames will not be posted there.

In article <C08Koq.3v9@imag.fr> oueichek@gram3 (Ibaa Oueichek) writes:
>Hamaza H. Salah (cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu) wrote:
>: 
>: Tamer AbdelJawad writes:
>: 
>: 
>: Here is my proof:
>: If you got enough of the ones in AlBaqarah, here is a new one:
>: 
>: Altawbah
>: {
>: 5. So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the
>: unbeleivers wherever you find them, and take them captives and
>: besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if
>: they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their
>: way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
>: }
>: If these are instructions were given to muslims at the time of
>: the prophet, can't we see if they were not islamic, quran would
>: have not said them?
>
>  Hamza, i feel really frightened by what you are writing here. However,
>i'll try to follow you in your logic till the end.
>Would you please tell me (in modern terminology) WHO are those unbelievers ?.
>I don't have my copy of the Koran handy, but i remember the word is 
>"mushrikeen".

First, some context [Marmakduke Pickthall translation]:

[1] Freedom from obligation (is proclaimed) from Allah and His messenger
toward those of the idolaters with whom ye made a treaty:

[2] Travel freely in the land four months, and know that ye cannot excape
Allah and that Allah will confound the disbelievers (in his guidance).

[3] And a proclamation from ALlah and His messenger to all men on the day
of the Greater Pilgrimage that Allah is free from obligation to the
idolators, and (so is) His messenger.  So, if ye repent, it will be better
for you; but if ye are averse, then know that you cannot escape Allah.
Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve.

[4] Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty,
and who have abated nothing of your right nor have have supported anyone
against you.  (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term.
Lo!  Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him).

[5] Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever
ye find them, and take them (captive), and beseige them, and prepare for
them each ambush.  But if they repent and establish worship and pay the
poor-due, then leave their way free.  Lo!  Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

[6] And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad),
then protect him so that he may hear the word of Allah, and afterward
convey him to his place of safety.  That is because they are a folk who
know not.

[7] How can there be a treaty with Allah and with His messenger for the
idolators save those with whom ye made a treaty at the Inviolable Place
of Worship?  So long as they are true to you, be true to them.  Lo!  Allah
loveth those who keep their duty.

[8] How (can there be any treaty for the others) when, if they have the
upper-hand of you, they regard not pact nor honour in respect of you?
They satisfy you with their mouths the while their hearts refuse.  And
most of them are wrong-doers.

[9] They have purchased with the revelations of Allah a little gain, so
they debar (men) from His way.  Lo!  evil is that which they are wont to
do.

[10] And they observe toward a believer neither pact nor honour.  These
are they who are transgressors.

[11] But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then
are they your brethen in religion.  We detail Our revelations for a people
who have knowledge.

[12] And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made
with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief.
Lo!  They have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist.

[13] Will ye not fight a folk who broke their solemn pledges, and purposed
to drive out the messenger and did attack you first?  What?  Fear ye them?
Now Allah hath more right that ye should fear Him, if ye are believers.

[14] Fight them!  Allah will chastise them at your hands, and He will lay
them low and give you victory over them, and He will heal the breasts of
folk who are believers.

[15] And He will remove the anger of their hearts.  Allah relenteth
toward whom He will.  Allah is Knower, Wise.

>  However, whatever the interpretation of the "unbelievers" is, i think this
>their religious belief, which is something definitly unacceptable in our time
>(And it's not because there has been an inquisition in Spain that there should
>be one in the Arabic world).

Pickthall uses the word "idolaters" instead of "unbelievers" as
seems to be the case in the translation that Hamaza quoted from.
The actual word in the original text is "Mushriqeen", which is
the plural of "Mushrik".  "Mushrik" means one who indulges in
"shirk".  Shirk can be best defined, I think, as polytheism.  

>  I remember that once i flammed one of our dearest Israel supporters at tpm 
>specifically because he insisted that Islam encouraged slaughter of non
>Muslims.
>Now you are giving such people an argument to bash your religion and your 
>belief. I'll stress that your ideas are really new to me, and that my
>impression
>about Muslims is that they were much more tolerant than that you are trying to
>say they should be. And while life for nonMuslims wasn't really great under 
>Muslims role (and sometimes it was definitly bad), there has been very few
>cases
>where Muslims killed people because of their belief, and i'll not account
>Islam
>as responsable for these events, it was rather political ambitions.

As you can see from my quotations of all of the relevant text in that
part of the Surah, Muslims are being enjoined to fight against any
idolaters who break treaties with them, or with whom no treaties exist
and who are hostile to Islam.  It also states very firmly that anyone
who does not attack Islam or Muslims is *not* to be attacked.

I agree with Hamaza that the above verses can also be applied to
Israel.  I would not agree with him that these verses allow for an
indiscriminate slaughter of all Jews in the region.  Please note that
I have *not* stated that he says that all Jews in the region should be
slaughtered.  I am only stating that if he (or anyone else) were to
make such a claim I would disagree with him because the above verses
tell me to not do that.

There is a very large percentage of Jews in Israel who wish to be at
peace with their Arab and Muslim neighbours.  There is no doubt that
with these a treaty is possible and should be made.  On the other
hand, there are others who wish to drive Muslims out of their homes.
This is obvious from their behaviour in the past, and they still
continue to drive Muslims out of their homes - witness the way 400+
Palestinians were treated only recently.  These Jews also abate the
rights of Palestinians - with curfews, "administrative detentions",
beatings, killings, demolitions, etc.  Verse 14 is very explicit about
the way to deal with this problem: "Fight them!".


Basalat Ali Raja.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic