From: michaell@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Michael Andrew Lowry)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Existence of a god.
Date: 23 Jul 92 22:53:51 GMT
     <1992Jul22.132121.21432@nntpd2.cxo.dec.com>
     <1992Jul21.160354.198@doc.bmd.trw.com>
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin
X-UserAgent: Nuntius v1.1b3

In article <1992Jul22.162708.3126@ducvax.auburn.edu> ,
rezkmah@ducvax.auburn.edu writes:
>Hi,
>Would you mind an intruder?

No one is an intruder here..... I hope. 

>I have been following this discussion for a while and I cannot resist
>intervening at that point.  I can see the extremely high order and
organization
>from the atomic level to that of the galaxy as pure and clearcut
evidence for
>the existance of a creator.  They certainly do not suggest
habhazardness, or
>do they ?!
>
>                                                             Thanks,
>                                                            M. A. Rezk

The Universe, as we see it, is organized. But what if the universe
existed as only a big (how big? who cares?) sphere...a perfect sphere.
Now also suppose that somehow, we (you and I) are able to understand the
nature of the Universe, in such a state.  We know it is a sphere. 
Spheres are organized, aren't they? A sphere follows a simple
mathematical rule. All spheres do. 

No here's my point. If the Universe we know today, with galaxies, and
quasars and black holes...and oh, yeah- stars and planets - is
"pure and clearcut evidence for the existance of a creator", then
wouldn't also the hypothetical Universe that is a sphere also be such
evidence?

It is my firm belief (well, more of a theory) that the organization of
the Universe is just the way things are.  We don't know exactly how
things got to be the way they are, and fundamental principles prohibit us
from obtaining such knowlege.  (i.e., The uncertainty principle)  Such
orgnization is not evidence the existence of a creator.  On the contrary;
the assumption that a creator exists, or DID exist, only raises a
question which is unanswerable anyway: Where did this creator originate?

We cannot answer such a question simply, except to suggest that such a
creator has always existed, or somehow just "popped" into existence. 
Well, some theories about the Big Bang suggest that The Universe
performed such a feat.  We cannot prove these theories any more than we
can prove the Law of Gravitation, but they seem to fit the evidence.  The
Universe- Time, Space, Energy, and Matter- all exploded into existence at
the "moment" of the Big Bang.  We can remove an uneccesarry step in
explaining the Universe by just accepting its existence at "face value". 
It is.
To say that there is a creator is unscientific, and serves no logical
purpose. 

Hmmm.  I once thought I believed in a creator, but many years of
experience, many discussions with others, and many hours of thought have
led me to the conclusion that there is no creator.

The complexity of the organization of the Universe is, indeed,
overwhelming.  However, it is an illogical shortcut to just explain it
all by saying there is some greater meaning, or some unseen
consciousness.  It makes much more sense to search for answers, knowing
that you may never find them.
Newsgroups: alt.atheism