HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jeromema@cc.uvcc.edu
Subject: Re: Clairvoyant (OBE?) experience
Organization: Utah Valley Community College
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 23:27:50 GMT

In article <1992Jul24.194907.22181@engage.pko.dec.com>, stanley@verga.enet.dec.com writes:
> 
> 
>>>Seriously, I have found no information about how to induce and OBE
>>>on demand.  
> 
> Bob Monroe at the Monroe Institute can teach you how.  He uses tapes
> that induce self-hypnosis.
> 
>>Darn. I kinda figured that somebody out there in alt.paranormal land
>>would either have had experienced an OBE or know someone who has or
>>had heard of someone who has, etc., and could tell me either how he/she
>>did it or how he/she heard it was done. It would seem pointless for all
>>the readers of this group to discuss OBEs in so much detail if NOBODY
>>reading/posting believes that they can occur. 
> 
> A friend of mine had a spontaneous one during childbirth.  She floated 
> above her body and 'saw' her body being wheeled into the delivery room.
> She watched it all from the ceiling.
> 

  A number of years ago I experienced what I have always referred to as a
clairvoyant event that would perhaps be similar to an OBE.  One Sunday
afternoon my (then) fiance and I went uptown to get some ice cream cones.
The closest parking space was on a side street around the corner from the
ice cream parlor.  She didn't want to go in and stayed in the car.  I got
out, walked about thirty feet to the corner, turned the corner and walked
up the main street to the ice cream parlor, which was about three doors
down from the corner.
  I went inside and ordered our cones.  While I was waiting I had an uneasy
feeling come over me and as I turned around and leaned back against the
counter I witnessed the clairvoyant phenomenon.  The wall of the store
evaporated and I could see the sidewalk and boulevard on the side street
and my fiance sitting in the car.  As I watched her, two men came walking
from left to right along the sidewalk and looked in the opposite direction and
towards my fiance.  They momentarily walked out of the vision, and then a
couple of seconds later walked back into it, this time from right to left.
As they passed between my fiance and I, I could sense what they were thinking
about and became alarmed.  I'm sure I blurted out loud the words, "Oh no!
don't let that happen."  No sooner after having said that, I felt calm and
assured that all was well.
  The clerk, by this time was tapping my on the shoulder and wanting me to
pay him for the two cones, which of course I did, and hurried away. When I
turned the corner, after leaving the shop, the two men I had seen in the
vision had already walked down to the other corner on the side street.  I
got into the car and asked my fiance whether or not those two men had been
by the car and if they acted like they were going to try and get at her.  
She said yes they had, and that they had been scared. She said she had locked
the door when they came near the first time.  
  I can't say that this was an OBE, because I had no definite feeling along
those lines. But I know while it was going on I had no sense of actually still
being in the ice cream parlor.
From: mchalmer@mcs213a.cs.umr.edu (Matthew Chalmers)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: OBE tests that prove it DOESNT occur
Date: 22 Jul 92 15:44:08 GMT
Organization: University of Missouri - Rolla

I'm really sorry for doing this...posting an original article as a follow-
up to an existing article...but I can't seem to make my software generate  
an original message in a newsgroup.

Anyway, here's what I want to say. I have been reading for the past few
days a lot of messages about OBEs (Out of Body Experiences). Some of the
articles refute the notion, some proclaim its veracity. I don't really
care at this point if OBEs are proven, fact, fiction, imagination, or
whatnot -- I just want to ask if anyone can post instructions on how to
induce one.

Yes, I want someone (or several people if opinions differ) to tell me
how to induce an out-of-body experience. If it helps the instructor, I
want this information so as to "travel" about 200 miles from where I am
now (Rolla, Missouri) to Blue Springs, Missouri, to see a friend.

Without going into any further detail (unless needed, which will be offered
in reply to subsequent follow-ups to this article), my question stands as:

How am I to induce an OBE?

I would appreciate NOT getting personal replies through e-mail or the like,
so that everyone who reads this group is able to see follow-ups to this
message. Thanks.
From: ron_s@verifone.com
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal
Subject: close
Date: 25 Jul 92 20:52:10 -1000
Organization: VeriFone Inc., Honolulu HI

I am still waiting to see a color photo of an alien
and/or an alien spaceship.  All of the ones I have seen,
(and that is a lot), are all rather grey,fuzzy, and
ambiguous. I noticed that the recent post about a woman
who was abducted by 3 aliens described them as "grey".
We have to tell these aliens to dress better, and show
some color, or people are going to forget all about them.

The alien spaceships are dull and grey too, and invariably
shaped like saucers (of course), garbage can lids, metal
footballs, hot dogs, or barbells. What is needed is a 
better variety of shapes - like pyramids,tetrahedrons,
icosahedrons, cornucopias -- with more colors and better
lights....

aloha
From: revpk@cellar.org (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal
Subject: Re: OBE tests that prove it DOESNT occur
Date: 22 Jul 92 21:30:14 GMT
Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system

gen5006@husky1.stmarys.ca writes:

> In article <BroDp6.5oq@acsu.buffalo.edu>, ztsindi@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (The 
> > 
> > 	A very simple test that HAS been done (by the 'Amazing Randi') 
> > to see if OBE's happen was this: A six digit number is written on a 
> > card and placed in another room. The person who says they have or can
> > induce OBEs does not know what this number is. When the OBE occurs the
> > person goes to the card, reads the number and goes right back to 
> > his/her body and rattles off the number. There is no time limit and 
> > the experiment can run for as long as you need to induce or experience
> > an OBE. It has NEVER been successful. Of course you can say that 
> > something happens to the mind when having an OBE that prevents you 
> > from remembering a sequence of numbers, but that is such an obvious
> > and blatant cop out that it would instantly ruin your credibility to
> > suggest it.
> > 							Joe
> 
> 	So how do you explain all of the instances in which people have 
> seen things they could not possibly have known about without being there?
> Just a thought ;)
> 
> Bill.

        And where are these instances? Most of the ones I've heard about 
didn't happen under controlled conditions.

        The cases I've heard about fall into the anecdote category, for the 
most part-- the person _insists_ that they couldn't have known about stuyff 
they saw while in an OBE. Since I have only the person's word on the 
subject-- and that the person tends to want to believe in the OBE-- I 
certain'y can't take that as evidence. 

        As far as tests under _controlled_ conditions go, the evidence 
becomes far more equivocal. There are questions as to whether some unknown 
cue tipped the traveller off (say, the faint car horn from outside and the 
person reporting a near-accident at the nearby intersection), or whether the 
person might've been cheating. (I've seen magicians do a stunt similar to the 
protocol described above.)


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian "Rev. P-K" Siano                                  revpk@cellar.org
"Best Reason Not to Vote for Perot-- If he wins, it might encourage Bill 
Gates to run." 
Newsgroups: alt.cyberspace
From: mdturner@riker.acs.calpoly.edu (M Turner)
Subject: Re: Problems in Law in Cyberspace
Keywords: Continuity
Reply-To: mdturner@riker.acs.calpoly.edu 
Organization: Cal Poly State University, San Luis Obispo
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 23:38:23 GMT


Laws for cyberspace must be continuous with laws for noncyberspace.  A smooth  
flow of control must be maintianed for any organized use of the information  
gained in cyberspace.  For meaningfull information commerce, the legality on  
both sides must be addressed.  Information gathering and distribution  
proceedures in cyberspace must mesh with existing proscriptions outside.

The use of cyberspace, legal or not, is dictated by is productivity for the  
outside world.  The outside world will, in the beginning, control cyberspace  
law and conform it to match existing law.  Slowly a shift will take place when  
it is realized that the restrictions of the outside world do not apply in  
cyberspace.  Those inside will begin to show what advances can be made if  
restrictions and regulationa are relaxed.  This trend will continue to  
donimate cyberspace law until the meshing effect is controled from the inside.   
Then non-cyberspace laws will be dicted by the more prosperous and valuable  
cyberspace.  
From: Centurion@f6008.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Centurion)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: alt.cyberspace
Subject: Cyberspace Dreams
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 15:27:12

I gotta take issue w/ some of your statements. First of all, can you really IMAGINE being "projected... brainwaves in a virtual environment in another dimension"? Just becuase you can say something doesn't mean you can really, honestly, imagine it. Ask 90% of first-time visitors to the Grand Canyon (who almost certainly have both heard and said that it's a mile-deep ditch with pretty colored rocks) if they could have really imagined it- they'll almost all tell you 'no'. I agree, though- I DO want to experi


ence the unimaginable- but that doesn't mean that I can't guess as to anything about it. Some things can be imagined- virtual sex, traipsing across virtual planets killing aliens (see an infinite # of SF RPGs)- but not all.

 * Origin: Meridian -=- (214) 235-3164 -=- Dallas, Tx. (1:124/6008)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberspace
From: tolman%asylum.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Kenneth Tolman)
Subject: Re: Problem with Laws in Cyberspace
Date: 22 Jul 92 11:46:09 MDT
Organization: University of Utah, CompSci Dept

>>For example, the e-mail privacy situation would not have been so difficult
>>if the e-mail policy which has evolved would have been exactly like the
>>postal-system's policy; thus, nobody (not even system operators) except
>>the sender(s) and recipient(s) of the e-mail would be permitted to access
>>(view/read) it.

I would like to thank the original poster- this is very true, and very
important.  We must develop privacy and laws to control exploitation and
abuse.  However, the REAL world does not protect one's own information 
sufficiently, so I would not like to appeal to that as an ideal.  Movie
stars are constantly harassed by journalists, public figures have no
privacy whatsoever in their history, and the whole thing is a sickening mess.
We should MODIFY THE CONSTITUTION to guarantee individual privacy- no
kidding.

This privacy protection would of course extend into the electronic mail,
and other forms of interpersonal communication.  NO ONE should be able to
access their information except themselves.  Of course- information should
be able to be destroyed if a person does not "pay rent" on the space- but
not read.  Thus, if someone has a whole slew of mail and junk they are the
only ones with permission to read, but superusers who must kick people off
systems must be able to erase that memory space and then have access to it.

>If someone is reading your mail, it is either because 1) they
>are out to get you (in which case you are fucked eight ways to hell, no
>matter what you do ;-) )

This should not be the case!  One should be able to have certain liberties
in a free civilized society.

>The security of your e-mail is your responsibility.  Encrypt your mail, if
>you really don't want anyone else to read it.  Government and business don't
>send sensitive materials via the U.S. mail, and they will encrypt e-mail
>or other electronic transmissions.

This is a good point, self encryption (such as with the RNA algorithm) can
be nearly impossible to break by anyone, and effectively secures channels.


I think that everyone should have the right to post information anonymously
in a place accessible to all.  This would include hate mail, pornography,
and other such "baddies" as well as allowing a forum for discussion where
one could say whatever one wanted without worrying about recrimination.
Presumably, such a forum would have "tags" attached to mail by outsiders
so that one could skip the racial messages if one wanted.  The "tags" would
be placed with a signature- to prevent people from labelling mail as
"hate mail" which was really an effective discourse against their position.
Enough "false accusations" and an individual would be lose the right to
put tags on messages.
From: lemon@unssun.nevada.edu (John A. LeMon)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberspace
Subject: Re: Cyberspace dreams?
Date: 28 Jul 92 21:08:48 GMT
Reply-To: lemon@unssun.nevada.edu
Distribution: alt
Organization: University of Nevada-Reno

In article <1992Jul24.154155.16327@hellgate.utah.edu> tolman%asylum.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Kenneth Tolman) writes:
>
>  If you could experience ANYTHING in cyberspace, what are some of the things
>that would be fun to do?  What would be lame?

I don't personally plan on _spending_ my life in cyberspace, rather I plan
on _using_ cyberspace to better my own and OUR own reality (non-virtual 
environment).  I personally am a little bit worried that future societies,
with access to the technology you speak of, may find themselves living too
much in the virtual and not as much in the non-virtual environment.  That's
a HIGHLY subjective statement so take it as "IMHO!"  Anyhow, what i am trying
to say is this:  Currently, I can only see myself taking part in virtual
activities that are difficult if not impossible in our own real-reality;
this as a result of my aversion towards doing things (living my life)
in "cyberspace" that I can do for REAL!  Just because you don't have the 
money to go trapsing off in a South American jungle with a beautiful
companion in Real Reality does not make it impossible.  I dunoo, maybe
I'm missing the point of all this...You do what you want with it, I'll
do what i want with.  But you asked ME. (sorta ;^))  I'd rather save up
money and go do something once for real than do it in cyberspace a zillion 
times--a memory is worth...Although a VR feedback MUD might be verrrryy
interesting. (a GAME!)

*shrug*

John

Ps:  I just proofread this, and it seems as if I dont' really say much.
Hard thoughts to get down on paper, cuz there's so many facets to what
I wanted to say.  I'll send it off anyhow. *chuckle*

      John A. LeMon           "Good my Lord, put your discourse in some frame  
     U. Nevada, Reno              and start not so wildly from my affair."     
  lemon@unssun.nevada.edu                       --Shakespeare              
 "My voice will rise and be heard, even if it kills me (or my mbox)!" -- Me.
From: tolman%asylum.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Kenneth Tolman)
Subject: Re: Cyberspace dreams?
Date: 27 Jul 92 14:46:24 MDT
Organization: University of Utah, CompSci Dept
Distribution: alt


>|  If you could experience ANYTHING in cyberspace, what are some of the things
>|that would be fun to do?  What would be lame?
>|_____________________________________________________________________________
>
>In all your above examples, you listed things that can be done in this
>"reality" or that can be imagined in your mind.  Why?
>
>I would prefer to let the ai I'm assuming will be available to expand upon its
>own library and present something that is completely taken out of any human
>experience.  Thus, I couldn't give you an example because that would be within
>the realm of my own imagination, which doesn't count.
>
>Teledildonics, games, or anything even remotely real ("gee, it'd be cool if we
>projected ourselves as brainwaves in a virtual environemtn in another
>dimension") is for shit because it can be imagined. 
>
>I want to experience the unimaginable. 

NO experience will be synthesizable unless it has been imagined.  If you put together
parts of other peoples imagination- it still was of their imagination.  You WILL
be able to experience the (human) unimaginable once they get nondeterministic algorithms
for construction, but not until then.  Computers can't do magic- and today can't
even imagine on their own.

WHATEVER experience you find will have been imagined- by either a human who programmed
it- or the computer which imagined it nondeterministically.  Your statement is
meaningless, "I want to experience the unimaginable"
From: jbs@korova (jacques)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberspace
Subject: Freedom? Coolness? Lameness?
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 92 22:09:53 CDT
Organization: VHF void tube of the mind

As far as freedom is concerned, cyberspace is just another arena for the 
eternal rugby scrum between the two goals of total freedom and total 
control. I, for one, am glad this issue has come up in the last few 
years. The issue of liberty is argued almost everytime a new 
telecommunications technology or scheme is presented. Almost nowhere else 
is that issue addressed. Everyone seems to assume that because we still 
have a Constitution that the bad old government is kept safely at bay. 
Those who argue otherwise are either ignored or dismissed as whiners. 
With the advent of cyberspace as an issue, we're seeing a healthy amount 
of debate over the old, but still very valid, issues. True, it's like 
picking apart the other guy's religion, foreign policy, literary style, 
etc., while studiously avoiding critique of yer own, but it's a start.
   It's always been true that eternal vigilance is the price, etc. The 
good guys more or less won a round back in 1783, but obviously the battle 
kept going. After all, we pretty much suspended the First Amendment in 
1791, with the Alien and Sedition Laws. Just gotta keep fighting, is all.

   As far as cool/vs lame in cyberspace goes, I won't be satisfied that 
the Virtual world is complete until I see total experiential Mind 
Shopping Networks and religious channels (how would you like to 
EXPERIENCE Heaven and Hell...?). I wanna see the future equivalent of 
little kids 'n' dogs with big eyes, Rod McKuen, Disinfotainment Tonite, 
and All The Hits All The Time. It will be a truly virtual world only when 
it becomes dense enough to decay into the rich loam from which true 
bulldada springs.

   And that goes double for the real space program. If it ain't cheesy, 
it ain't real.

Dank yu veddy much.

--
              VHF void tube of the mind (713) 492-2783
        "where you can find the Zeta Greys SAFEWAYING themselves
                into the WONDERBREAD *heart* of America!"
From: chmilar@Apple.COM (Michael Chmilar)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberspace
Subject: Re: Problem with Laws in Cyberspace
Date: 22 Jul 92 23:03:15 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, CA

tolman%asylum.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Kenneth Tolman) writes:

>>>For example, the e-mail privacy situation would not have been so difficult
>>>if the e-mail policy which has evolved would have been exactly like the
>>>postal-system's policy; thus, nobody (not even system operators) except
>>>the sender(s) and recipient(s) of the e-mail would be permitted to access
>>>(view/read) it.

>We should MODIFY THE CONSTITUTION to guarantee individual privacy- no
>kidding.

>This privacy protection would of course extend into the electronic mail,
>and other forms of interpersonal communication.

While this is a nice idea, I see severe problems with 1) implementing/
enforcing it and 2) abuse of the constitutional guarantee in unintended
ways.  In number 2, I am talking specifically about lawyers.  The legal
system is already jammed with lawsuits, and this opens the door for even
more.  Basically, you could give someone a memo to carry down the hallway,
and, if he or she reads it, you could sue them.  In my opinion, lawyers
are only interested in making money for themselves, and they would not
be above encouraging someone to do such a thing.

Don't laws already exist that allow you to take legal action against people
who violate aspects of your personal privacy, as long as you have taken
reasonable measures to protect that privacy?  (ie. if someone breaks into
your locked drawer to read a document, or opens your mail, you have legal
recourse against them.)

>>The security of your e-mail is your responsibility.  Encrypt your mail, if
>>you really don't want anyone else to read it.  Government and business don't
>>send sensitive materials via the U.S. mail, and they will encrypt e-mail
>>or other electronic transmissions.

>This is a good point, self encryption (such as with the RNA algorithm) can
>be nearly impossible to break by anyone, and effectively secures channels.

Encryption shows a reasonable measure against having someone read your mail
or examine your files.

I generally find it hard to agree with the idea of introducing legislation
that is impossible to implement or enforce without creating a fascist state.
I would rather educate than legislate: teach people that their e-mail is
not private or secure, and teach them how to encrypt it.  The individual is
then responsible for their own mistakes.  Otherwise, the burden is shifted:
someone accidentally sees your e-mail - because you didn't take appropriate
measures - and you sue them for violating your privacy.  Maybe they are
innocent of any wrong-doing, but you are certainly guilty of stupidity!
From: Jeremiah.Blatz@dartmouth.edu (Jeremiah Blatz)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberspace
Subject: Re: Problem with Laws in Cyberspace
Date: 23 Jul 92 19:17:06 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH

In article <70289@apple.Apple.COM>
chmilar@Apple.COM (Michael Chmilar) writes:

> On any current computer system, any security is implemented ultimately by
> the operating system, and thereby enforced by software which 1) can always
> be broken and 2) requires a class of "privileged" users.  Your e-mail can
> never be completely "safe".  Then again, who is to say that the NSA, FBI,
> or whoever does not have ways of reading your U.S. Mail, if they really
> want to.

BTW, there are shemicals that one can spray on envelopes which make the
paper clear (well, frosted). they do not smudge ink and compleatly
dissapear (evaporate?).

Jeremiah
jerbl@dartmouth.edu
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