HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: A pragmatic view of the deportation
Date: 27 Dec 92 17:14:37 GMT
Reply-To: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Organization: North Carolina State University

In article <1992Dec26.200043.4543@nysernet.org>, astein@nysernet.org
(Alan Stein) writes:
> hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem) writes:
> 
> >As I said before, (from BBC reports) most of the Palestinian deportees
> >are well-educated people. They are professionals in such areas as
> >teaching, medicine, law, and engineering. These are examples of people
> >who can help build a Palestinian country. Deporting them only
> >exacerbates your false concern.
> 
> Wouldn't it be wonderful if they used their professional schools to
> help their own people rather than to kill Jews?
> -- 
> Alan H. Stein   -----  AJIN   -----  astein@israel.nysernet.org

According to reports that I have heard, even Rabin's government is not
claiming that these men have killed anyone. Are you?

Brad "Ali" Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.rights.human
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: Israeli Expulsion of 418 Palestinians
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 16:03:18 GMT

hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem) writes:

>In Alan Stein's idea of a "just" society it is a deportable offense to
>speak out against the government. Oh! Excuse me, it is a deportable
>offense to be merely accused of demonstrating against the government.

Clever distortion.  Their demonstrations shown on TV simply made it
quite clear that they were guilty of what they are being deported for.
If all they ever did was demonstrate peacefully, without furthering
terrorism and murder, they wouldn't have been temporarily deported.
(Of course, then there wouldn't be an intifada, either.)

>Alan, you are despicable.

It's always a pleasure to debate with someone who brings the
discussion up to such a high level.
-- 
Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: odkahn@eos.ncsu.edu (OPHER DANIEL KAHN)
Subject: Re: All Arabs are guilty
Keywords: 
                                                                ^^^^^^^^^^^
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1992 21:37:19 GMT

Interesting statistic.  Were did you get it?
>

>Zionism is not racism, but to implement it, you have to engage in genocide.
>So far, Zionism remains an incomplete project.                    ^^^^^^^^^
>
I missed that chapter in the middle east history.   Care to fill me in???

-- 
 Opher D. Kahn 
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic
From: carasso@Turing.ORG (Roger Carasso)
Subject: Re: Deportee Mistaken Identity Follow Up
Organization: The Turing Project, Public Access Internet Host
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 21:45:24 GMT

cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah) writes:
)
)The funnier one is "Are they going to replace them by the new correct
)ones?"

Hammie, your sincerity over their welfare is unquestionable.

...
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24498 soc.culture.arabic:6156
From: gwydion@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Mercenary Programmer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: Islamic Fundamentalism
Date: 1 Jan 1993 14:59:08 GMT
Organization: Free Software Foundation
NNTP-Posting-Host: spiff.gnu.ai.mit.edu

In article <42963@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans) writes:
#
#	After Hamas gets its way and all of Palestine is
#	subject to fundamentalist Islamic rule,  what will life
#	be like in the new state? The following perhaps gives
#	a flavor of things to come.
#
#	From the LA Times, 12/27/92, p.A19:
#	In recent weeks, for the first time in memory, young
#	Saudi men have begun fighting back against the feared
#	religious police, starting several brawls
#	in shopping malls with the bearded men, who are often
#	equipped with small whips and who harass shoppers for
#	improper Islamic dress, illegal mingling of the sexes or
#	failure to close shops during the five periods of prayer
#	each day.
#
#	From the LA Times, 12/27/92, p.A20:
#
#	Just how far the [Saudi] government was prepared to go to
#	appease the new Islamic fervor became dramatically clear on
#	Sept. 3, when a 22-year-old man who had publicly questioned
#	God and the prophet Mohammed at the age of 17 was beheaded
#	in a public square in the eastern city of Qatif.
#	In its official report on the case, the government noted
#	that the young man, Sadeq Abdelkarim Malallah, had repented
#	when religious leaders met with him in prison, but 
#	emphasized that his statements against religion constituted
#	"a crime that calls for death, even in the presence of
#	repentance, as a way of avenging what is due to God's 
#	prophet".
#-- 
#Ron Evans (revans@math.ucsd.edu)

What does this have to do with Islam?

Basalat Ali Raja.



Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: JAKE LIVINI AND ISLAM  (Re: Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian boy)
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 92 01:30:28 GMT

In article <1992Dec22.073824.0115151@locus.com> jle@lear.bos.locus.com (John Elghani) writes:
>In article <1992Dec21.223851.6170@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:

>>How do you explain the Jihad that the Ayatollah declared against
>>Saddam, in which 1-2 million Muslims were slaughtered?  I know that 
>>Saddam isn't that religious but was he "oppressing Muslims"?
>
>As if either peformed islam as it is supposed to be!!

Thank you, JLE, for informing us that the Ayatollah wasn't very good
at practicing Islam.  

>Guess again.  I believe that the PLO began as a freedom fighter
>org., but later it got involved in killing innocents abroad
>including its own people.  They did not line up the Palestinins
>and kill them like israel does, but rather they battled in 
>the camps caring less about who gets caught in the cross fire.
>I do call that opression; the current PLO is far from the teachings
>of true Islam, true Christianity, or true Judaism.

Wow, we agree on something.

>LISTEN JAKE, before making an a** of yourself go study about islam 
>then make such a stupid statment.  Only a muslim hater would
>say such a thing.  WHy are you upset at the antisemites, you are
>as bad as they are when you make such a stupid remark.
>
>HOW IGNORANT YOU'VE PROVEN TO BE.

The more I LISTEN to you, the less IGNORANT I turn out to be.
Thanks for the continuing enlightening.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com              10 years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed President.
From: davesimp@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Simpson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Israel and Mideast
Date: 31 Dec 1992 07:30:14 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandstorm.berkeley.edu

To: 
Subject: Re: 
Newsgroups: 
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Cc: 
Bcc: 


I agree with an earlier post that said that both sides of this
conflict are guilty of some pretty low deeds.  Until both Israel
and the Arabs/Palestinians are ready to admit this, the talks
won't go anywhere.

Before I go further, I would like to state that I am Jewish, and
I am pro-Israel.  I believe Israel should exist, and must exist. 
However, I think Israel is definitely trying the faith of its
supporters, and is definitely not winning over any new allies.

I may be wrong here, but I believe Israel has a perfectly legal
right to the West Bank and Gaza strip.  Just like Sinai, it is
territory it occupied during a war started by several Arab
nations in an attempt to destroy Israel.  Sinai has been given
back to Egypt in exchange for peace.  But, Israel is still
currently at war with it's other Arab neighbors.  So you have to
understand (and most of you do) that this is a little more than a
border dispute between the U.S. and Canada.

But Israeli actions in the West Bank are not productive.  Forget
the fact that they are violating several international laws and
are shooting Palestinians daily.  Who cares if they have the
right to deport over 400 people without trial? (Okay, I care, and
so should you, whether you are pro-Palestine or pro-Israel, but
this is not the point I want to argue)  The deportations may seem
extreme, but I am sure your opinion might be different if you
lived in daily fear of terrorism.  That is most likely why many
of us may not support them, but 91% of Israelis do.

If Israel wants peace, they have to 
realize that the Hamas are a SYMPTOM, not THE problem.  
Deporting more and more people is not going to solve
anything.  Israel may have a right to settle the West Bank.
But if Israel wants peace, they are going to
have to sacrifice something and give it up some or all of the
Occupied Territories just like they did with Egypt.

I don't want to see Israel get smaller, but it would definitely
be preferable to what its current state is now.  I don't want
Israel to concede easily to it's Arab neighbors.  It should be
tough, and demand treaties that will ensure its peaceful
existence.  Israel has been getting a bad rap lately (and, IMHO,
it deserves some of it) but it is not dealing with angels.  These
countries were committed to destroying Israel and the PLO was a
terrorist organization.  And though 'were' and 'was' may be past
tense, we are talking less than ten years ago.

I am very PRO Israel.  I want to see Israel flourish and grow
into a powerful and respected nation.  That is why I want this
lunacy in the Occupied Territories to end as soon as possible, so
Israel can go on to concentrating on more important things.

-David Simpson
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.culture.soviet
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: The architect of the Armenian genocide of the Muslim people.
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 92 22:17:06 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <C01s3w.A2n@exnet.co.uk> dhd@exnet.co.uk (Damon) writes:

>What a jerk.  Maybe you'll find out that *QUALITY* rather that

Poor "damon". That is what I saw in the library. What's your problem 
with this?


Source: "World Alive, A Personal Story" by Robert Dunn. Crown Publishers, 
Inc., New York (1952). 
(Memoirs of an American officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide of 2.5 
 million Muslim people)

p. 363 (first paragraph). 

 'How many people lived there?'
 'Oh, about eight hundred.' He yawned.
 'Did you see any Turk officers?'
 'No, sir. I was in at dawn. All were Tartar civilians in mufti.'

 "The lieutenant dozed off, then I, but in the small hours a voice woke me - 
 Dro's. He stood in the starlight bawling out an officer. Anyone keelhauled
 so long and furiously I'd never heard. Then abruptly Dro broke into 
 laughter, quick and simple as child's. Both were a cover for his sense
 of guilt, I thought, or hoped. For somehow, despite my boast of irreligion,
 Christian massacring 'infidels' was more horrible than the reverse would
 have been.

 From daybreak on, Armenian villagers poured in from miles around.....
 The women plundered happily, chattering like ravens as they picked over
 the carcass of Djul. They hauled out every hovel's chattels, the last 
 scrap of food or cloth, and staggered away, packing pots, saddlebags, 
 looms, even spinning-wheels.

 'Thank you for a lot, Dro,' I said to him back in camp. 'But now I must 
 leave.'...We shook hands, the captain said 'A bientot, mon camarade.' And 
 for hours the old Molokan scout and I plodded north across parching plains. 
 Like Lot's wife I looked back once to see smoke bathing all, doubtless in 
 a sack of other Moslem villages up to the line of snow that was Iran.'"

p. 354.

"At morning tea, Dro and his officers spread out a map of this whole
 high region called the Karabakh. Deep in tactics, they spoke Russian,
 but I got their contempt for Allied 'neutral' zones and their distrust
 of promises made by tribal chiefs. A campaign shaped; more raids on
 Moslem villages."

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: nazi beer gardens
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 92 19:18:15 GMT

In article <bill.725143089@castor> bill@cognet.ucla.edu (William M. Eldridge) writes:
>stephen@watson.princeton.edu () writes:
>
>>I don't support the deportations, Wayne, but the truth is that any other 
>>Western democratic nation would have acted identically.
>
>By deporting legal citizens?  How do you get this?

The people who were expelled were not citizens.

Participating in Fundamentalist Hamas activity (even more notorious
and murderous than the PLO) doesn't qualify as legal, even in ARAB
states, not to mention civilized Western states like Israel.  In fact,
in many Western states, such people would be electrocuted, gassed or
given lethal injection while the death penalty is not available in
Israel.  Israel has dealt very humanely with a very inhumane problem. 

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com              10 years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed President.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jle@lear.bos.locus.com (John Elghani)
Subject: Re: Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian boy
Organization: LC
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 06:47:51 GMT

In article <1992Dec24.011712.5626@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>In article <4721@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:
>>In article <1992Dec17.222155.27594@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>>>
>Tell me, how do Palestineans "express their individual views
>politically and socially"?  With machine guns, as they did last week,
>or with grenades, as they did a few days ago?

And tell me, how did israel come to its theft existence?  By roses,
olive branches, or doves?  They did it with terror, torture, then theft.

>Arafat is the only person to my knowledge who addressed the UN General 
>Assembly with a machine gun, to his eternal shame.  He is the same one
>who promised "10 bullets in the chest" if they disagree with him,
>perfectly in accordance with the Palestinean revolutionary policies
>mentioned in the NY Times article.  Is this your leader, Anisa?

I assume Begin and Shamir, the groomed terrorists,  used flowers
and roses in the chests and stomachs of pregnant women when
they killed them,  Right?


jle
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Jihad is self-defence
Date: 30 Dec 92 10:33:26 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

In article <1992Dec29.101411.0184517@locus.com> jle@lear.bos.locus.com (John Elghani) writes:
>In article <4596@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:
>>In article <1992Dec27.152024.19584@wisipc.weizmann.ac.il>
>>fedimit@wisipc.weizmann.ac.il (Dan Nabutovsky) writes:
>>
>>>>     Jihad is self defense.
>>>
>>>War is peace.
>>>2*2 is sometimes 3 and sometimes 5.
>>
>>Sorry but I can't agree with any of you.
>>JIHAD means a war in order to enforce Islam on non-Islamic nations ("a
>>      holy war").
>>War is not a peace , and 2*2=4.
>
>*BULL*  Why don't you study Islam first, then tell us what Jihad
  ^^^^   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>is.   YOUR FEEDING TO A HUNGRY CAT IS JIHAD.  Your guidence  of
>lost muslims back to islam is Jihad.  Your defense against agression
>is Jihad.  Your war against an occupier is JIhad.  In fact the
>first Jihad ever was when Mohammad PBUH along with 113 was attacked
>by the Quraish Army.
>
>As I understand it, Jihad can be offense, not necessarily defense.
>Offense against the forces of a dictator ruling a land of muslims.
>
>The name "Holy War" translates to Arabic to "Alharb Al muqaddasa",
                                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>where no such a thing exist or can exist in islam.
>                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>jle

 Thank you for your nice Islamic lesson.
But your lesson made even a BULL like me some what confused.

One of the basic Islamic rules is:

  DEIN    MOHAMED B'SEIF !!

DEIN    - the law of
MOHAMED - Mohamed - the person considered by Moslims to be a profet.
B'SEIF  - by a swared (Seif = Harb (alharb) )

The meaning of   DEIN    MOHAMED B'SEIF is:

 YOU MUST USE A BRUTE FORCE IN ORDER TO CONVINCE NATIONS TO ACCEPT
ISLAM!!!

The meaning is that a war for forcing non-Muslims to became Muslims IS
considered to be a HOLY WAR !!

so where are YOU wrong ????
gideon ehrlich    Land of Israel













Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd M. Ben-Halim)
Subject: Re: deportaion
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1992 23:48:02 GMT

>In talk.politics.mideast makowsky writes:
>># If some jews argue Gaza Strip and West Bank are not for Palestinians,
>># then we come to the root question that is: Where jews came from and where
>># palestinians came from?  The outsiders vs. the insiders..
> 
>>	The Jews come from there.  The "palestinians?" come from Arab
>>invaders.

Excuse me, the last time I checked Abraham came from what is now Iraq, the
jews conquired the area under Joshua. You don't suppose they are descendants
of people who lived in the area at the time of the islamic conquest? Or has
the land remained empty from 70 A.D. till then?
Askenazi jews are descendants of people who converted to Judiasm in the middle
ages and have no relation to sephardim execpt the religion.


Nobody came from anywhere. People come and go in the course of history. You
can't move millions of russians and poles to "return" just because 
co-religionists used to live there a couple of millenia ago.

> 
>># Palestine is NOT "a land without nation for a nation with out land."
actually the quote is:               people       people
> 
>>	Correct.  There has never been a "palestine?".

Who gives a shit? So what? Does that deny the rights of the people who live
between the jordan river and the sea (whatever the hell you want to call it).
So what if there was a state called Israel several centuries ago? There were
many state everywhere all through out time. There once was a arab/muslim state
in what is now Spain. You don't see them demanding their divine right to
establish a muslim state in Spain.
Many state came and went in the "area". The issue is NOW. The whole premise of
Israel is base on the grounds of "God gave it to us, everybody else get the
fuck out!"

Finally don't forget, the mightiest empire have fallen, it might have taken
a few hundred years but it happens. The state of Israel has fallen before and
will fall again just like all other states. Who would have thought that USSR
would fall after 70 years.

"Ina ghaddann Le Nathirahu gareeb"

Zeyd
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Israel's deportation of over 400 Palestinians
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 18:37:47 GMT

In article <1992Dec22.091054.24186@Princeton.EDU> niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent) writes:

Quoting somewhat out of context here:

>(Basically, I view this as pretty analagous to the US interment of
>Japanese-Americans during WW2, actually.  The government there, too,
>said there was an imminent security threat because a war was going on.
>Many of the people arguing this may even have believed it sincerely.  It
>didn't make the actions right, however.)

This analogy, is like comparing apples and oranges.  The basic
difference between the actions of the US government and the Israeli
government is that the Arabs living in Gaza pose a demonstratable and
definite threat to the Israeli population.

The Americans of Japanese ancestry who were thrown into camps had
shown no propensity to oppose the American war effort.  Many of them
were second and third generation American citizens.  There were no
instances that I know of of Japanese-Americans spying for the Imperial
Government.  This is in stark contrast to the fact that there were
Germans who spied for the Reich, although German-Americans were never
jailed en masse.

Please note that I am not defending the deportations.  I am merely
trying to point out that David's analogy is fundamentally inaccurate. 

Adam
Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all.  How true that is.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jle@lear.bos.locus.com (John Elghani)
Subject: CHILD TSIEL (Re: Palestinian deportees turned back by Lebanese)
Organization: LC
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1992 14:01:54 GMT

In article <216@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP> ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP (Tsiel Ohayon) writes:
>In article <4750@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> Shaqeeqa writes:
>
>[ANISA] Common Tsiel ... this isn't funny at all!!  (Besides, committing 
>
>        ^^^^^^ Come on or Com'on

All of the sudden Tsiel, the ugly, has become an English teacher.
WHY DON'T YOU STICK TO BUSINESS. IF YOU WANT TO TEACH PEOPLE ENGLISH,
THEN SEEK A DIFFERENT NEWSGROUP.  You are very good at getting
the main subject lost like this when cornered.  It didn't work,
try again MR ugly.  NOW, how do you like us to comment on TMP on how
ugly your PIZZA face is? Is it soooooooooo much TPM related?

Your looks remind of the shorter guy (Danny D.) in the movie "TWINS".
ARE YOU HAPPY NOW?  I refused to asnwer in the beginning,
but you did not give decency a chance. YOU ARE CHILDISH.

>[ANISA] suicide is absolutely haram, and as good of a Muslim as Yahya is, that
>[ANISA] would be the last thing he would consider - plus he would have to go 
>[ANISA] over *my* dead body first:-).
>
>If he is such a good muslim, why does he want innocent civilians to be killed
>by Hamas and its likes. Oh I get it, it's okay to kill as long as it's not 
>oneself! Makes a lot of sense, because if one had killed oneself then he could
>not kill others. Great logic.

NEVER.  I CHALLENGE THAT YOU CAN EVEN BRING A SINGLE EVIDENCE THAT
SAYS I SUPPORT THE ABOVE BULL YOU ARE PILING. 

>As for going over your dead body, that's a decision jle will have to make on
>his own :-)

OBVIOUSLY, you are the man with the UGLY FACE AND UGLY SENSE OF HUMOR.
SO BEAT IT, and leave decency to its people like great Anisa.


>[ANISA] And, on the spelling lessons, you should teach your own Israeli 
>[ANISA] brothers first (like Gideon) before attempting to correct other 
>[ANISA] non-fluent English speakers (or is this another attempt at enlightening
>[ANISA] us Arab heathens, oh Israeli master?)  :'}
>
>I agree that Gideon does master the English language too well, but he lives
>in Israel. His main exposure to English is probably these computer newsgroups.
>I guess by reading articles from jle he will never make progress :-).

I've never claimed to speak english nor I am proud to try to
speak it either.  I Speak 5 languages, and English is not
one of them.  FYI, Hebrew is one of them.

jle



Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish