HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: vnend@hotlips.Princeton.EDU (David James)
Subject: Re: awards recognition
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: andersjc@pucc.princeton.edu
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 18:27:51 GMT

[I'm posting this for Janet.  Please note that hitting 'reply' will
not get back to her, so please change the destination address if you
respond.  Her email address is andersjc@pucc.Princeton.EDU.)  KNK]

Regarding some recent comments about the possible "political" nature of
awards, especially polling orders, I would like to offer a subject for
debate.

Should there be a "courtesy" requirement for peerage orders?  And should
it be enforced?

Some background may be in order.  At present, there is a requirement for
courtesy in candidates for peerages (I think it's in Corpora; corrections
welcome).  However, I'm sure that everyone on the Rialto can think of cases
where it seems that requirement was waived; and I have heard *royalty*, when
this matter came up for a candidate, dismiss the discussion with "We only
want to hear about her work!"  (I assume that this royal gentle equated
a discussion of courtesy with a "political" discussion.  I disagree.)

A member of my order (Laurel) recently said to me that if we weren't going
to use that requirement, it should be removed, so we wouldn't all be (or
appear to be) hypocrites.  I don't think we should remove it; I think we
should start taking it seriously.

P.S.  I welcome communications over E-mail; they're often the most
interesting ...

Dorigen of the Grey Gate/Janet Anderson

Xref: sparky rec.org.sca:12410 rec.arts.sf.written:11598
From: cctimar@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu (Charles)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca,rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Accents (was Re: COVINGTON CROSS)
Date: 28 Aug 92 20:13:33 GMT
Organization: Vanderbilt University student of numerology

To all upon the Rialto doth Charles the clerk send his greetings!

Aryk Nusbacher responded well to the argument that the characters should
have been speaking Norman French.

At the time of the Conquest William brought maybe two myriad Normans,
Bretons, and Flemings (only the Normans spoke Norman French) to rule
a million Anglo-Saxons.  Within a few decades, the nobility, both the
new Normans and the surviving Anglo-Saxon nobles, would have needed
to be bilingual, needing Norman French for the court and Early Middle
English to speak to their vassals and servants.  Only the top
administrators would have been able to not speak the language of the
land.

From the time of Henry III, who started making royal proclamations in
both tongues (1258), it can be assumed that a significant portion of
the ruling classes preferred English to French, and that this portion
increased until the early 15th century, when it came to include just
about everybody.

   Latyn as I trowe can nane
   But tho that haueth it in scole tane
   And somme can Frensche and no Latyn
   That vsed han cowrt and dwellen therein
   ...
   Bothe lered and lewed olde and yonge
   Alle vnderstonden english tonge.
	   -- William of Nassyngton, _Speculum_Vitae_ (1325) ll. 69-78

Aryk Nusbacher writeth:
> Greys of Heton, then they would be speaking the Northern Dialect of Middle
> English, which is quite distinct from the Southern Dialect, as a comparative
> reading of _Piers Ploughman_ and the _Canterbury Tales_ would show.

He is also correct in his claim that the Northern dialect of Middle
English was quite distinct from the Southern dialects.

   Al the longage of the Northhumbres, and specialych at york ys
   so scharp slyttyng and frotyng and vnshape that we Southeron
   men may that longage vnnethe vnderstonde.
	   -- Trevisa, in translation of Higden's _Polychronicon_ (1387)
[i.e., The language of the North is so ugly that we Southern men may
hardly understand it.]

He is wrong, however, in suggesting that the _Canterbury_Tales_ represent
a Southern dialect, and also in his implied division of Middle English
into two dialects.  Most authorities, when forced to generalize, will
group Middle English into at least four major dialects, namely
Southeastern, Southwestern, Midlands (sometimes separated into East and
West), and Northern, plus, sometimes, Lowlands Scots (which is sometimes
considered part of the Northern dialect).

Chaucer represents, I believe, the Central East Midlands dialect of (Late)
Middle English.

(I should point out that Modern English in North America is generally
divided into three dialects, ignoring, for example, the tremendous
variety of twangs and drawls to be found within the Southern dialect,
in states from Texas to Virginia.)
-- 
    -- Charles, student, in Glaedenfeld, Meridies
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: PA142548@utkvm1.utk.edu (T. Archer)
Subject: Re: Carolus goes to Toronto...
Organization: University of Tennessee Division of Continuing Education
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 18:16:04 GMT

In article <92Aug26.160720.32507@acs.ucalgary.ca> parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr) writes:
>My shield will be either my old device (azure, a martlet volant
>rising to dexter, in chief thre mullets of four points or) or
>my new device, if I finish the shield (Per saltire or and azure,
>a cock erect gules, a chief enarched of the last)...as you can
>see I am not quite sure *what* I will look like. 

Why not add a collar to that rooster and have a cock, erect, engorged...

(Ooops... did I say that?)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: bunny round and other weird words
Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 15:21:44 GMT

In article <23008@sybase.sybase.com> leighann@sybase.com (Leigh Ann Hussey) writes:

>Ha!  When *I* first saw that shield, 7 or 8 years agone, they were
>calling it a "Wankel" -- as in the shape of the rotary engine...

There is a difference between a Wankel and a bunny-round.  The foot of a
wankel shield is pointed, while the foot of a bunny-round is...round.

Aryk
From: Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Pennsic Land Allotment
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 23:39:48 -0500

patmcg@home.merit.edu (Pat McGregor) writeth:

 PM> It's *not* fair to tell the folks who bought a
 PM> big pavilion a couple of years ago, at major expense, 
 PM> that now they have to 
 PM> go back to the little coleman dome tent to come to Pennsic, particularly
 PM> if Pennsic is the only real SCA/Camping vacation they have all year.

Let them form an encampment with some people who have small tents.

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: patmcg@home.merit.edu (Pat McGregor)
Subject: Re: Pennsic Land Allotment
Organization: University of Michigan
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1992 02:58:20 GMT

'll confess, I didn't make it to Pennsic this year. We were in Scotland
(we got to meet Caitlin in Edinburgh, and TRH in London, and a whole slew
of other people!), but I did hear a *great* deal about the land system
both before and after.
 
It seems to me that one thing that's missing from the discussions of all
this is how households with children need to function. Granted, we
get the 235 (or whatever) square feet for each child. But we still get
complaints from our singleton or non-parental friends about the way a
camp has to be set up to house, say, two children under 10.
 
To be good neighbors to our friends, to keep from annoying them at early
morning hours (when they've been our revelling all night), a household with 
children really needs to have its own cooking place, be it a a cooking tent withmundane cooking equipment or a separate fire pit. I know in the daysbefore
I took children to Pennsics I would have killed someone who came out with
a small child rattling pans, singing, etc, at 7 in the morning. But
sometimes it's hard to keep a child content inside a tent *until* 7 am!
 
We need to have some way to bathe children who can't really cope with
the solar showers. I've bathed mine in large cooking pots, or small inflatable
swimming pools (and the fighters seem to like those pools more than
the kids!), or even just with sponge baths.  But to do this we need
space -- either inside our tent or in a common area.
 
And so on and so on. I don't want to propose that we segregate into
children vs. non-children encampments (altho I've heard that suggested
seriously by some groups). I would like folks to remember, when they're
drawing up their encampment designs in 4-5 months, that everyone has a different
style and need for camping facilities. let's be reasonable and chivalrous to
one another!

Siobhan medhbh o'roarke                      pat McGregor
Shire Cynnabar                               Ann Arbor, MI
 
patmcg@merit.edu	                     (313) 426-3506
smor@um.cc.umich.edu
From: parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Carolus goes to Toronto...
Date: 25 Aug 92 16:44:09 GMT
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta

For anyone who does not (a) live near Toronto and (b) fight, this
probably constitutes a waste of bandwidth, and I apologise.

However, here goes: I will be in Toronto for sept 25 26 27 and
possibly 28 (I don't remeber when I leave...), I will be
attending the sunday afternoon fighter practice near the
university, which I am given to understand begins at 2pm.

I will be bringing my armour, and looking for trouble...;-)

I hereby invite/challenge all fighters in Toronto to
meet me upon the field of battle. I suggest reverse
order of precedence to determine the lineup.

Sice we need a pretext for this challenge, I think
I will now advise all of your fighters that they are
a) Ugly
b) their mothers dress them funny
c) possessed of very smelly gambesons
d) supposed to take this in the jesting spirit
   in which it is intended.

Perhaps some kind Rialtans will pass this challenge around
at your meetings and to your friends? I'd love to see 
100s of happy helmed maniacs waiting for me with evil
grins and well honed wraparounds.

I am accounted, I would say, to be a fairly solidly
middle ranked fighter in my locality. I'm a long way
from both newbie and knight, but take my practice
seriously and hope to be "the best fighter in sca"
some day. I view this trip as an opportunity to 
learn from styles I have not previously encountered,
and hope, as previously challenged, to fight every
single one of your fighters;-)

Any doughty warriors who wish to respond to my challenges
are welcomed to do so, if your response is entertaining,
perhaps the Rialto would enjoy reading our banter, certainly
I will.

Martially Yours
Carolus --Mediocris-- Malvoix
Montengarde An Tir
Broken Thumb
fighting anyway, with a damned good cage over the shield hand.
-- 
Within the span of the last few weeks I have heard elements of
separate threads which, in that they have been conjoined in time,
struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing
gourd. --Unknown net.person
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: doug@telly.on.ca (Doug Young)
Subject: Re: Pennsic Land Allotment
Organization: Somewhere just far enough out of Toronto
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 14:03:46 GMT

In article <1992Aug22.144607.8981@access.digex.com> corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra) writes:
>Greetings to the Rialto from Corun MacAnndra
>
>Mikjal and Tibor both write praise for the land allotment at Pennsic this
>year.  . . .

The primary complaint I heard was that the allocation process did not
allow for Certain Special Camps which for some reason needed extra space.

I cannot think of any specific case.  But it could be dealt with as follows:

Groups wishing land have two choices:

    1.  Accept the limitation of 235 sq ft per person and make the best of it.

    2.  Convince the Land-o-crat and Autocrat (and existing Royalty if
        applicable) that they need more than this.

We camped this year in about 180 sq ft, with others right round our permiter.
It did not allow us a fire though.  Next year we will have about 16 people and
are assuming 235 sp feet per person.

Just an Idea.
+---------------------------------------+------------------------------------+
| Justinian Clarus, a humble herald in  | Douglas Young                      |
| the service of the Principality of    | doug@telly.on.ca                   |
| Ealdormere, the Middle Kingdom and    | ..!uunet!attcan!telly!doug         |
| a life dedicated to fighting          | Orangeville, Ontario, Canada       |
| feasting and frivolity                | (519) 942-2514                     |
+---------------------------------------+------------------------------------+
From: amlsmith@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Andrew Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Town Battle at the War
Date: 2 Sep 92 22:17:51 GMT
Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland


You could always hold the battle around the cars....  ;-)

Sebastian
From: Craig.Vaughan@p365.f342.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Craig Vaughan)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Smelly steel wagons at Pe
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1992 22:43:46 -0500

  AP> M'Lord.... I for one took no offense whatsoever at the placement of
  AP> the parking lot.  Indeed, een tho many a gas dragon did snort down the
  AP> path not 5 FEET from my head at night as I lay asleep, I noticed them
  AP> not.  I DID, however, take great umbridge at the blasting horns of the
  AP> great diesel beasts lumbering on the interstate!  I was unfortunate
  AP> enough to be assigned not far from that awful road, and more than once
  AP> I was actively planning my distances and angles for a crossbow shot
  AP> right into a semi.  (Wonder what they'd think when they finally
  AP> noticed an arrow sticking out?)  I do wish there were some way to
  AP> silence those beasties' horns! In your service, Lord Ailean Mac an

In our barony's camp, much thought was given as to how to construct a sound
activated ballista...

- Griffith ap Morgan


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Town Battle at the War
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 00:13:16 GMT

In article <1992Sep2.221751.5937@morgan.ucs.mun.ca> amlsmith@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Andrew Smith) writes:
>
>You could always hold the battle around the cars....  ;-)

Now *that* sounds like an effective way to get people to move
them--and cheaper than towing, too.  Trucks, of course, would be
better since they're harder to see over.  :-)

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: kevin@isi.COM (Keradwc an Cai)
Subject: Re: various and sundry
Organization: The Internet
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 22:04:43 GMT

Aryk Nusbacher so wonderfully described some early musicians:

> All 'round the fire, the natives had reached back into their race
> memory and pulled out the primal dances that their ancestors had 
> done 'round the fires in the dark reaches of the past.  Their 
> shoulders were hunched, and they pounded out these deep rhythms 
> of the hunt, of war, even the very rhythms of life.  They were cele-
> brating these aspects of their existence, both individual and tribal 
> existence, with spontaneous, heartfelt dance.

Then concluded:

> Just like the Middle Ages.


Well, at least it _IS_ pre-17th century. A whole lot pre.

Keradwc
  kconnery@isi.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mjc+@cs.cmu.edu (Monica Cellio)
Subject: Re: Pennsic Land Allocation
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 15:13:48 GMT

whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt) writes:
>	Divide it in half.  Allocate each half to the King of one
>	of the belligerants.  Let each King divide it among his
>	allies and other forces.

All well and good, except for one little detail: only about a quarter of the
people who attend Pennsic fight.  I think there were about 1000 archers
this year, but I don't know how much overlap there was between them and
the fighters, so we don't know how many of the attendees contributed
directly to the battles.

Are *you* going to tell the other 5000-6000 to go camp in a swamp or just
stay home?

I have seen people so driven by the "we must win the war!" nonsense that
I can *easily* imagine the non-combattants getting screwed by such a scheme.
Yes, there's such a thing as collective bargaining, but greed is a factor
too.

Ellisif
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: jeffs@math.bu.EDU (Jeff Suzuki)
Subject: Covington Cross
Organization: The Internet
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 00:20:54 GMT


I'll join the flood of messages about CC, even though I admit that I
haven't seen the show yet.  What I do have is a bunch of questions:

One, several people have complained that the show injects too much PC
into the fourteenth century.  I suspect it is impossible to do a show
nowadays without injecting a sickening abut of PC attitudes; such is
the price of working with mass media.

Two, several people have complained that the show is bad history.
Well, as Heinlein once said, anyone who reads historical fiction to
learn about history gets what he deserves.  This goes triply so for
television, which is designed around the Lowest Common Denominator
principle.  Let's face it; most of the potential CC audience doesn't
know the difference between the Middle Ages and Middle Earth, and
couldn't care less.

Three, several people have raised the specter of seeing CC SCAdians in
the future.  Is this such a horrible threat to our existence?  We've
weathered the non-flood of Kevin Costner SCAdians, and the chronic
influx of Fantasy gamer SCAdians doesn't seem to be doing much towards
allowing elves into the ranks of the Heraldry, unless I'm horribly
mistaken.  

The only _valid_ complaint about CC that I've heard is that the
acting, plot, etc., is terrible.  I can't judge that, but, hey, give
it time: even Star Trek/Next Gen needed a season before it came
together into something worth watching (heresy!).

Tio (still looking for a first name) d'abaco
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: Grand Pennsic
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 17:36:06 GMT

T Archer says:
  I still don't have it clear why the Pensic War has suddenly gained a 
  politically correct name.

Because the Kings and Queens of the Middle and East made it so.  In
the words of Douglas Adams "This has been widely regarded as a bad move."

Don't expect the Pennsic Mistake to be repeated.  I'm sure hoping it
won't be.

	Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
From: jprod@sagepub.COM (Journals Production Department)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Dorothea's poem
Date: 27 Aug 92 22:51:11 GMT
Reply-To: jprod@sagepub.com
Organization: Sage Publications, Inc., Newbury Park, CA


  Dorothea, you are wondrous and amazing and delightful. I love it when
  a poem absolutely stuns me with its wit _and_ technical perfection.
  Got any books out?
                       Sister Kate

-- 
         Journals Production Department, Sage Publications, Inc.
                2455 Teller Road, Newbury Park, CA 91320
              voice: (805) 499-0721    fax: (805) 499-0871
                    via Internet: jprod@sagepub.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: PA142548@utkvm1.utk.edu (T. Archer)
Subject: Re: Late Night Noises (was Pennsic Land Allotment)
Summary: Don't overuse earplugs
Organization: University of Tennessee Division of Continuing Education
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 13:28:28 GMT

In article <1992Sep2.024939.23340@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu> cctimar@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu (Charles) writes:
>From: cctimar@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu (Charles)
>Subject: Re: Late Night Noises (was Pennsic Land Allotment)
>Summary: Don't overuse earplugs
>Date: Wed, 2 Sep 92 02:49:39 GMT
>To all upon the Rialto doth Charles the clerk send his greetings!
>
>Dorothea of Caer Myrddin writeth:
>> I could not have done it without earplugs.  They make _good_ earplugs
>> nowadays.  I can't remember any brand names--there is more than one
>
>Warning!  My mundane sister, the audiologist, tells me that sleeping with
>earplugs on a frequent basis often leads to ear infections.  Occasional
>use is safe.

True enough.  As a swimmer, I soaked my ear-plugs in alcohol for a half-day 
after use, then remove them and let them air-dry.  By evening they were 
ready for use again.
From: ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Historical Accuracy (was Re: COVINGTON CROSS)
Date: 31 Aug 92 15:11:31 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

Aryk (A.J.S. Nusbacher) writes:

>Also remember that this is fiction.  In fiction the author gets to decide
>what people wear, and the way they talk, and the equipment they use.  

Actually, when it comes to motion pictures and television, the writer 
usually gets very little control over those things.  It's usually the
producer -- in the case of television -- or the director -- in the
case of motion pictures -- who makes the most important decisions.

In any case, however, the audience or reader still gets to decide 
whether what the author/director/producer did was silly, trite, or
dumb.  Thus I think I can say, without violating anyone's rights, 
that Convington Cross was all three.

-- Nicholas van Leyden
From: PRIEST@vaxsar.vassar.EDU (CAROLYN PRIEST-DORMAN)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Weaving Terminology
Date: 28 Aug 92 02:34:20 GMT
Organization: The Internet

Unto the Fishyfolk of the Rialto from Thora Sharptooth, greeting!

I'd like to add a little to Fiacha's recent rundown of weaving terminology. 
First, American and European textile terminology differs slightly, so you might
find reference to "crystal," "lozenge," or "diamond" twill, all of which are
structurally the same thing.  (I think "goose-eye" or "bird's-eye" are also
terms used for this same weave, but they're more modern terms and my expertise
drops off sharply after the fourteenth century.)  A good book to consult for
standard American terminology is THE PRIMARY STRUCTURES OF FABRICS:  AN
ILLUSTRATED CLASSIFICATION, rev. ed., by Irene Emery (Washington, DC:  The
Textile Museum, 1980); it has standardized and very clear b/w photos of each of
the structures it discusses.  For standard European English terminology,
consult the English summary at the back of Lise Bender Jorgensen's
FORHISTORISKE TEXTILER I SKANDINAVIEN (Kobnhavn:  Det Kongelike Nordiske
Oldskriftselskab, 1986).

Also, it may not necessarily be the case that the "limitations" of a
warp-weighted loom caused the weaving of broken lozenge, rather than accurate
meeting lozenge, twills.  At least one textile specialist (John Hedges, in
ANGLO-SCANDINAVIAN FINDS FROM LLOYD'S BANK, PAVEMENT, AND OTHER SITES) asserts
that the warp-weighted loom is capable of producing accurate-meeting lozenge
twills; he uses this theory to account for the sudden popularity of this weave
in the late tenth century in northwestern Europe, before major technological
improvements had yet reached there from Asia Minor.

I recommend the book STEP BY STEP WEAVING, by Nell Znamierowski (New York: 
Golden Press, 1967), as a good introduction to the terminology of the loom.  It
contains many carefully labeled line drawings of the various parts of different
types of looms--although it doesn't include warp-weighted looms, alas.  For
that the best source is unquestionably Marta Hoffman's THE WARP WEIGHTED LOOM: 
STUDIES IN THE HISTORY AND TECHNOLOGY OF AN ANCIENT IMPLEMENT (Oslo:  Norwegian
Resource Council for Science and the Humanities, 1966 [Robin & Russ reprint,
1974]).

******************************************************************************
Carolyn Priest-Dorman			Thora Sharptooth
Poughkeepsie, NY			Frosted Hills
priest@vassar.edu			East Kingdom
            Gules, three square weaver's tablets in bend Or
******************************************************************************
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca