HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: will@ogre.cica.indiana.edu (William Sadler)
Subject: Re: tonal value of chords and harmonic series [?]
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 15:01:05 GMT

In <1993Jan27.075738.23548@news.cs.brandeis.edu> jacob@max.cc.brandeis.edu ( ) writes:

>worse, it failed to account for some important facts of the harmony
>of his time, such as that the tonal value of the minor triad
>is the same as the pitch (class) of its bass, and it fails even more
>completely, ex post facto, with chords used later: for example
>according to rameau's model the chord
>C-E-G-A, i.e. a major triad with an added 6th should be a VI chord,
>lying on A whereas everbody knows it is a tonic chord lying on C

Really?  Rameau's concept of the fundamental bass says that A is the
tonic of the chord, as does a lot of theory.  It depends on context
and what system of analysis you are using.  What is more confusing is
Rameau's rule that the fundamental bass can only move by fifths (or
should move by fifths).  So if you have a CEG chord followed by a
BDFA chord there are two possibilities: the CEG could really have a
fundamental bass of A (this is unlikely if I remember correctly) or
the DFA chord really has a fundamental bass of G. 

>now my question is: is it true that people have all but stopped trying to
>justify the tonal value of the minor triad based on "resonance" arguments,
>even when they've kept the harmonic series to justify other parts of the
>system?

Harry Partch based his entire microtonal system on the ability to extend
the chord up through the overtone series to the 13th partial.  What you
are talking about  here is the way in which Rameau derived the minor chord.
This is also how Partch derives his utonalities.  You start with the
fundamental and then go up to get major: unison, octave, fifth, etc.
But, if you flip the thing around, you get minor.  For example:  up--
you get octave fifth (octave) major third (E natural if C is the
starting point) down  octave-->fifth-->(octave)---major third (Eb if
C is the fundamental)  Not scientific, but its kind of interesting how
it works out.

Will
--
***************************************************************************
*   _______________\|/_      Will Sadler     will@cica.indiana.edu        * 
*   Laser 44888    /|\                       sadler@iubacs.bitnet         *     
***************************************************************************
From: efosbroo@axion.bt.co.uk (Elisabeth Fosbrooke)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Brahms Basher Repents
Date: 25 Jan 93 12:51:43 GMT
Reply-To: efosbroo@axion.bt.co.uk (Elisabeth Fosbrooke)
Organization: British Telecom Research Labs


In article <1993Jan23.153030.12798@hubcap.clemson.edu>, jtbell@hubcap.clemson.edu (Jon Bell) writes:
|> In article <Jan22.220810.51877@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> hurben@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Mike Hurben) writes:
|> >  Well, I was one of those people a month or two back who said some unkind
|> >things about Brahms' music.  And while I still don't consider his symphonies
|> >to be in the same class as Beethoven's or Mahler's, [...] 
|> 
|> Wait a while longer, then give 'em another chance.
|> 
|> When I started listening to classical music in high school, I didn't care for
|> the Brahms symphonies either,  ..............
|> Now he's one of my favorites.  So maybe Brahms is one of those composers that 
|> some people simply have to "grow up to" or something...
|> 
|> Jon Bell / Dept. of Physics & C.S. / Presbyterian College / Clinton SC, USA

When I was in my teens I listened to records with an older friend (>25) who was very systematically building up a huge library.  His theory was that you start listening with Beethoven and Tchaikowsky and work up to Brahms gradually - he was intending to research for the Brahms section of his library by the time he was 30. 

I've finally got there - at least, I'm enthusiastically looking forward to singing chorus in the Deutsches Requiem at the Bury Festival with Richard Hickox!

Elisabeth
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: caf@omen.UUCP (Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX)
Subject: Re: Bach Art of Fugue
Organization: Omen Technology INC, Portland Rain Forest
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 11:59:02 GMT

>  That chorale (prelude) "Vor deinen Thron tret ich hiermit" has really
>  nothing to do with DKF. Once it was played in the end, because the
>  last Contrapunctus is not complete.

Concert-Disc (Everest Records) recorded AotF transcribed for the
Fine Arts Quartet and the New York Woodwind Quintet by Samuel
Baron of the Quintet.  I find the transcription satisfying.
These records were recorded in 1958 or not too long afterwards.
I scanned Baron's closing remarks below:

  The music on this record concludes with the chorale
prelude, "Vor deinem Thron," which is not a part of the Art
of the Fugue.  When Bach felt that his failing strength
would not allow him to complete the quadruple fugue, he
stopped to dictate this chorale prelude, his final work.
The work then, is bound to the Art of the Fugue by this
circumstance, as well as by others, by its fugal style, by
its notation in open score (identical with the notation of
the Art of the Fugue) and by its final mood of complete
surrender, turning over all, placing the composer, his life
and work into the hands of God.

	Before Thy throne I stand
	O God, and ask,
	Turn thy gracious countenance
	Not to my sins.

  Thus the mighty Art of the Fugue ends uncompleted.  And
yet, in its unfinished state it is a monument of musical
art far greater than most finished work.  It traverses the
outermost expanses of human reach.  Its creator died before
he could complete the journey, but he took us further than we
might ever otherwise go.

-- 
Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX          ...!tektronix!reed!omen!caf 
Author of YMODEM, ZMODEM, Professional-YAM, ZCOMM, and DSZ
  Omen Technology Inc    "The High Reliability Software"
17505-V NW Sauvie IS RD   Portland OR 97231   503-621-3406
From: piltch@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Nancy Piltch)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Music killed by movies
Date: 26 Jan 93 22:24:00 GMT
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <Jan.24.18.51.30.1993.26558@ruhets.rutgers.edu>, bweiner@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Benjamin Weiner) writes...

>>Piece:  "Ride of the Valkyries"; Composer:  Richard Wagner
> 
>>   I will NEVER be able to hear this again without thinking:
>>   "Kill the Wabbit!  Kill the Wabbit!  Kill the Wabbit!!!!"
> 
>Well, tastes vary.  For me, this is an advantage.

Yes, I find that also. Another one that the movies have improved for me
is Fantasia's treatment of Dance of the Hours. The pirouetting hippopotami
give it a certain class (?) that it didn't have by itself. 


Nancy Piltch            piltch@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov
NASA Lewis Research Center, Cleveland Ohio 44135
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: smoliar@iss.nus.sg (Stephen Smoliar)
Subject: Re: Boosey sues Disney
Organization: Institute of Systems Science, NUS
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 01:19:24 GMT

kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu (Bob Kosovsky) writes:
: In the New York Times of Friday, Jan. 22 (page. B3) was an article on
: how Boosey & Hawkes is suing Walt Disney Corp. for selling videocassettes
: of FANTASIA.  B & H claims that "Stravinsky never granted the right to
: use it [Rite of Spring] in any medium or by any other form of distribution."

This story seems to have been important enough to have made THE STRAITS TIMES!
Unfortunately, the wording of the quote above would appear to also apply to the
records which Disney markets of the FANTASIA sound-track (which I seem to
recall buying in the late Fifties or early Sixties)?  Are Boosey and Hawkes
going to be able to now argue about video, having already given implicit
permission for audio marketing?  (By the way, thanks to that audio source,
I was able to annotate my personal score with all the ways in which Stokowski
"butchered" the music;  and I tend to think Stravinsky's choice of words was
appropriate.)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: jfh@netcom.com (Jack Hamilton)
Subject: Re: Boosey sues Disney
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 20:20:34 GMT

In article <1993Jan24.132846.15925@cronkite.ocis.temple.edu> 
christen@astro.ocis.temple.edu (Carl Christensen) writes:

>So if an orchestra plays a public domain work, that orchestra owns
>that performance?

Basically, yes.  Look at any recent recording; you'll see something like 

  (c)(p) 1989 Telarc (r)  All Rights Reserved"

where (c) means copyright, (p) means something like "playback right" or
"performance right", and (r) means "registered trademark".  Without performance
rights, there wouldn't be much incentive for companies to create
recordings. 

-- 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Hamilton   jfh@netcom.com   P. O. Box 281107   SF, CA   94128-1107
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: mccomt@aix.rpi.edu (Todd Michel McComb)
Subject: Re: Brahms Basher Repents
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1993 01:01:24 GMT

In article <2465@hsdndev.UUCP> Michael Wulfsohn writes:
>On the subject of Brahms - try the amazing definitive interpretations
>of Katchen playing Brahms' piano music.  No-one else comes close,
>except maybe Richter playing the 1st piano sonata.

How about Oppitz' recent recording of the complete piano music?

T. M. McComb

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: jeffw@or.credence.com (Jeff Winslow)
Subject: Re: Echoes of "How do you react to a wonderful new piece?"
Organization: Credence Systems Corp. Beaverton, OR
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 20:43:49 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.101526.62528@qut.edu.au> bellmann@qut.edu.au writes:

>enough the critical fact that for this phenomenon to take place one has
>to ignore both the name of the piece and the composer. Don't ask me why,
>I don't have a good theory about this, only guesses. Perhaps not knowing
>what the work is brings about the fear that one will never hear it again
>or even if one does, one won't know, what makes it a unique and unrepeatable
>experience, hence the beauty of the piece becomes almost preternatural.
>Perhaps knowing the name removes some essential element of expectation that
>powerfully contributes to make it so exceptional. May be knowing implies
>some element of possession or control that diminishes one's interest. The
>hypothesis can get as wild as you like.

I haven't experienced this with respect to music, but I have with respect 
to things in the natural world - say, far-off mountain peaks, or especially,
bird calls. More than once I have had the experience that knowing the name
of the bird that makes the sound has robbed some of the character of the
beauty from the sound. I still enjoy it, but some of the wonder is lost.
(On the other hand, knowing a name enables me to point out that, should
an American Northwest orchestra's nightingale recording for The Pines of
Rome get lost, they could just go up in the mountains and record the
hermit thrushes.) The attempt to preserve this sense of wonder is possibly
a reason for the behavior of explorers. Of all kinds.

This phenomenon has probably been treated extensively by some philosopher
or other, but I'm not really a theorizing person.

Then there was the time, when I was very small, that a piece of music came
on the radio, and I said to myself, "I *know* that piece, I *know* that
piece", and then the announcer cut in and said, "Yes, you know that piece..."
But after this length of time I can remember neither the music nor the name
of it.

					Jeff Winslow
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Don Giovanni
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 03:55:02 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.233322.8586@osf.org> coren@speed.osf.org (Robert Coren) writes:
>In article <1993Jan20.222922.8858@lloyd.Camex.COM>, chrisi@lloyd.Camex.COM (Chris Ischay) writes:
>> In article <1993Jan19.025649.5036@Princeton.EDU> roger@astro.princeton.edu
>> (Roger Lustig) writes:

>> >(is what kills Don G the 
>> >fact that he doesn't get *any* during the entire two acts?)

>> I'm glad you brought this up.  I've never been able to decide just how
>> "prow" the Don's prowess actually was.  What *did* happen there with Donna
>> Anna at the beginning?  Did he *really* get it on with Elvira's maid after
>> all?  I've not found anything that makes the answer definite one way or the
>> other, and I don't mind it that way.  But do others see it differently?

>I think it's pretty clear that he never gets it on with anyone during
>the course of the opera. This includes Donna Anna in the beginning; I
>see no reason to dispute her assurance that she managed to fend him
>off.

Well, why don't we hear her cry out earlier?  She only makes a noise
when it becomes obvious there are people around.  And how far had things
really gone when she found out?

Also, note the comic bit where Ottavio says he can breathe again once
she tells him she wasn't violated -- as opposed to him worrying about
anything else, like, did he hurt her, and how about the fact that
daddy's dead.  He keeps proposing throughout the opera, and she finally
tells him to check out for a year...or fifty...

A guy named Moberly once wrote a book about Mozart operas in which
he argued that Don G actually got laid *seven* times during the opera.

>It seems pretty clear that he *did* get it on with Elvira sometime in
>the past (I've heard of, but never seen, productions that at least
>imply that she is pregnant by him). 

Not bad, considering it was, what, last thursday that he split?

>On the other hand, one could also
>play it that their "relationship" was never actually consummated, and
>this is what has made her so crazy.

In which case, however, he'd still be chasing her, not the other way
around.  No, she's the crazy one, so daffy that she sings baroque
music "Ah, fuggi il traditor."

>As for Leporello's list... well, all Leporello has to go on is what
>Giovanni has told him, right?

Who do you suppose has been changing the sheets all these years?

Roger
From: sekey@engrhub.ucsb.edu (Andrew Sekey)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Gender Reference [Shulamit Ran]
Date: 22 Jan 93 18:35:53 GMT
Organization: University of California, Santa Barbara

Just to confuse things more: is "Shlomit", a currently used Hebrew name, yet
another variant of "Shulamit"?
From: sharaeec@w215zrz.zrz.tu-berlin.de (Aditya Sharma)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: "Parsifal" in New York in summer?
Date: 21 Jan 1993 09:29:55 GMT
Organization: Technical University Berlin, Germany
NNTP-Posting-Host: w215zrz.zrz.tu-berlin.de

Hiya!
I'm posting from Berlin for a friend who is interested in knowing about
operas playing in New York City this summer.  He intends to travel to
NYC during this time and is especially interested if anyone can tell him,
now itself, whether the opera "Parsifal" by Wagner is playing anywhere
there during this time or not.  Alternatively, any information of Wagner
operas in NYC during this time (or in general, with venue), would be
appreciated.

Thanks and cheers!

 
-- 
Aditya Sharma                        Dept. of Aerospace Engineering 
sharaeec@w228zrz.zrz.tu-berlin.de    Technical University Berlin,Germany
  **"...Acknowledge the Confusion Master Within..."-PROPHECY OF DOOM**
From: rouben@math9.math.umbc.edu (Rouben Rostamian)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Seeking comments on BBC Classical Music Magazine
Date: 23 Jan 1993 23:25:41 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland Baltimore Campus, Academic Computing Services
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: math9.math.umbc.edu

In article <1js6a6INNp2o@cae.cad.gatech.edu> dips@cad.gatech.edu (Deeptendu Majumder) writes:
>In my recent Audio magazine I saw this offer ffrom BBC Classical
>Music Service in Tampa, Florida. They are offering subscription
>to monthly issues of BBC music magazine and a companion CD, every
>month, for $5.00 + S&H per month. Apparently the CDs contain full
>recordings instead of samples and are done by BBC Symphony Orchestra
>I think. It is one of those cancel anytime with no obligation kind
>of deal.
>
>Anybody has any comment about the magazine and the CDs, and about
>the deal as such.

The ad that appeared here in the WETA magazine (Washington, DC) lists
the charter subscribers' price as $2.98 plus S&H.  My understanding is
that the first issue has not yet appeared.  Looks like what they are
doing right now is a bit of market research to determine the demand and
decide on what the market will bear.

--
Rouben Rostamian
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: jfl@panix.com (Jeff Lipton)
Subject: Re: 78's to cd's
Organization: Panix Public Access Internet & Unix, NYC
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 07:03:41 GMT

In article <broughto.727546558@craft.camp.clarkson.edu> broughto@craft.camp.clarkson.edu (BRAD BROUGHTON) writes:
>  From my father I inherited a flock of classical records
>on 78rpm. M<any contain classical performances by some of
>the now dead greatest artists: Schnabel, Flagstaff, Rubenstein, etc.
                                          ^^^^^^^^^
	Ah yes - Kirten Flagstaff - known for her great Western
	interpretation of Isolde - toughest barmaid of the frontier...
	Love potion - whisky neat - 
	Liebestod - sinking into Tristan's arms as Sherrif Marke
		looks on bewildered...


>I seek help in finding someone or a way to traanslate these
>onto CD's.  Can anyone offer a suggestion?
>
>broughton
>


+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jeffrey F. Lipton, M.D. (jfl@panix.com) |   (212)-982-1219 (home)          |
| 353 E. 17th, #19-E  NY, NY 10003        | "Disobedience was Man's First    |
+------------------------------------------------ Virtue" (Oscar Wilde) -----+

-- 
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jeffrey F. Lipton, M.D. (jfl@panix.com) |   (212)-982-1219 (home)          |
| 353 E. 17th, #19-E  NY, NY 10003        | "Disobedience was Man's First    |
+------------------------------------------------ Virtue" (Oscar Wilde) -----+
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: chrisi@lloyd.Camex.COM (Chris Ischay)
Subject: Re: Film versions of Opera
Organization: Camex Inc., Boston MA
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 16:45:56 EST

In article <Jan22.220104.45608@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>
hurben@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Mike Hurben) writes:

>   Well, I have been away for some time, and the last time I had a chance to
>take a quick peek at r.m.c., I swear I saw something about a FILM VERSION OF
>WAGNER'S RING !!!!??????  Is it true??  Can someone tell me about this????
>I have dreamed of such a thing for many years now...  

I just finished watching the first part of the Fritz Lang silent film
version of the Nibelung drama.  Or whatever it is.  Most of the same folks
are in this as in Wagner's epic, but there are as many differences as
similarities.

Is anyone familiar with the Lang films?  The cinematography and production
are extraordinary.  The box says the story is taken from another telling of
the Nibelunglied than Wagner's but not much more.  I'd like to know more
about them.

Chris Ischay
chrisi@camex.com
From: rtut@troi.cc.rochester.edu (Raymond Tuttle)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Novaes on CD - follow-up
Date: 22 Jan 93 23:05:36 GMT
Organization: University of Rochester (Rochester, NY)


  Yes, some of Novaes' work for VOX has been transferred to CD, but very
little of it is solo work.  Even so, you might like Vox Legends CDX2-5501,
a 2-CD set that will cost you little more than $10 in most places.  It has
Novaes' recordings of concerti by Beethoven (No. 4), Chopin (No. 2), and
Schumann, plus some encores.  I believe you can get her Chopin No. 1 on a
super-cheap Allegretto CD.

  If you like Novaes' recording of Chopin's Preludes and would like
something in a similar vein, then you might try Rubinstein (on RCA Gold
Seal) or Perlemuter (on Nimbus).  Personally, I would rather hear Argerich,
Cortot or Sokolov, but I gather that you are looking for something less
impulsive.  Oh, at the risk of incurring readers' wrath, let me put in a
plug for Arrau, especially if you can find his recording from the 50's.

Hope this was helpful.

--
****************************************   Raymond S. Tuttle
"Dunkel ist das Leben, ist der Tod,"       University of Rochester
but it's nothing to get depressed about!   (still with his two little 
****************************************   white mice).
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: judd@wilkinson.cs.colorado.edu (Stephen Judd)
Subject: Re: Classical Music for modern instrument (was Re: The shortest distance between two chords is...)
Organization: Universtiy of Coloardo, Boulder
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 03:35:40 GMT

In article <1jpbt0$1fm@agate.berkeley.edu> maverick@fir.CS.Berkeley.EDU (Vance Maverick) writes:
>They were far from the only ones.  Anyway, I agree with you that most
>pop music is bad and unadventurous; I just want to contest your claim
>that the problem is the lack of one specific form of adventure.

Good, and I agree.  I am guilty of the sin of omission - I was only trying to
talk about it as "a" problem, not "the" problem.

And now, back to my original question.  Are there examples of, for lack of a
better term, classical music for modern instruments?  I did not intend to limit
my question to the world of popular music.  Jean-Michael-Jarre is an acceptable
example, as is Mannheim Steamroller (Debussy wanna-be's).  Robert Fripp was
mentioned by someone...

I am simply looking for new music to explore, particularly that which is
harmonically creative in a devoid area, i.e. real innovation.

>	Vance

					-Steve
--
judd@colorado.edu
From: wuys@cs.rpi.edu (Yi-Shin Wu)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Mail ordering classical CDs??
Date: 26 Jan 93 21:44:00 GMT

Did anyone ever order classical CDs through BMG or Columbia House?

If so, how are they (in terms of quality of CD, quality of sound) compared
to those sold in record shops?

If possible, please send email as I don't monitor news too often.

Thanks in advance.