HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cessna@kn5f.jsc.nasa.gov (Mark Taylor Evert)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.space
Subject: Re: NASA spinoffs
Date: 17 Aug 92 21:50:11 GMT
Organization: Loral Space Information Systems

In article <1992Aug17.173703.5046@brtph560.bnr.ca> ritz@brtph95.bnr.ca 
(Charles Ritz P215) writes:
>    Just what are the useful 'spinoffs' of the Apollo program.
> How much of the $ 24 billion spent on Apollo went to developing
> these wonderful new technologies?  Was the accelerated develop-
> ment of these 'spinoffs' really worth $ 24 billion (in 1960s
> dollars, around $ 100 billion in today's dollars)?  Could the
> 'spinoff' technologies been built, at a much lower cost, without
> the Apollo program, e.g. is it really necessary to send a
> man to the moon in order to develop teflon?

I don't have a source handy, but I have read that spinoffs from the Apollo 
program helped create new industries that generated gross revenues that 
were quadruple the cost of Apollo.  It was about 1980 that I read this.

Developing new technolgy usually starts with a desired goal of what you 
want to do.  As you reach towards that goal, you often run into a problem 
for which there is no available solution.  A solution to that problem is 
invented.  However, the solution may also have other uses that the 
inventor did not envision and that is where the spinoff comes into play.

When Bell labs invented the transistor, their goal was to improve 
telephone switching systems.  They thought that maybe someone might want 
to use it for a hearing aid,  but frankly they did not see a market for 
transistor radios and other consumer products.  Sony expressed interest in 
the transistor.  Bell told them to go make hearing aids.   Sony thought 
there might be a market for small radios and the transistor radio was born.

The need for permanently lubricated surfaces in a vacuum enviroment lead 
to the invention of teflon, but no one envisioned using it in frying pans.

The need to secure objects temporarily in 0G led to the invention of 
Velcro which has found a multitude of uses on earth.

The need for small computers accelerated the miniturization of electronic 
components.

The need to monitor the health of the astronauts led to remote sensors and 
the need to send medical data by radio telemetry.   Likewise, spacesuit 
technology has been used in other life-supporting functions.

The answer to your final question really can't be conclusively answered.  
Someone else may or may not have run across a problem that would have led 
to the development of teflon as a solution.   I doubt that the people who 
jump onto Velcro lined walls would have developed Velcro just for that 
purpose.

Mark T. Evert
Friendswood, TX

My opinions are my own.
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.space
Subject: Re: Do spinoffs justify Apollo? (was Re: NASA spinoffs)
Date: 19 Aug 92 01:18:52 GMT
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA

Just passing thru......

In article <1992Aug18.032336.1@fnalb.fnal.gov> higgins@fnalb.fnal.govs
(Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey) writes:
>In article <1992Aug17.173703.5046@brtph560.bnr.ca>,
ritz@brtph95.bnr.ca (Charles Ritz P215) writes:
>> Was the accelerated develop-
>> ment of these 'spinoffs' really worth $ 24 billion (in 1960s
>> dollars, around $ 100 billion in today's dollars)?  

>No, of course not.  Go to the Moon because you want to go to the Moon.

>> Could the
>> 'spinoff' technologies been built, at a much lower cost, without
>> the Apollo program, e.g. is it really necessary to send a

"Spinoffs" do not cut it at Capitol Hill.
I know this from providing information to testimony.
You have to cite direct benefit.

For a good example, turn off the weather satellites during hurricane
season.  Do it just right before land fall predictions.

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Second Favorite email message: Returned mail: Cannot send message for 3 days
A Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya
From: higgins@fnalb.fnal.gov (Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey)
Subject: Do spinoffs justify Apollo? (was Re: NASA spinoffs)
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 09:23:36 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalb.fnal.gov
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1992Aug17.173703.5046@brtph560.bnr.ca>, ritz@brtph95.bnr.ca (Charles Ritz P215) writes:
> Was the accelerated develop-
> ment of these 'spinoffs' really worth $ 24 billion (in 1960s
> dollars, around $ 100 billion in today's dollars)?  

No, of course not.  Go to the Moon because you want to go to the Moon.
Build an SSC because you want to study tiny things or the Big Bang.
Spinoffs should never be the justification for a big expensive
project.  Nevertheless, they have some value, and should be counted as
a minor benefit of the project.

> Could the
> 'spinoff' technologies been built, at a much lower cost, without
> the Apollo program, e.g. is it really necessary to send a
> man to the moon in order to develop teflon?

Very probably.  (Incidentally, Teflon was *not* developed for
spaceflight.  It was a spinoff from the Manhattan Project in WWII, and
may have had origins even earlier.)

     O~~*           /_) ' / /   /_/ '  ,   ,  ' ,_  _           \|/
   - ~ -~~~~~~~~~~~/_) / / /   / / / (_) (_) / / / _\~~~~~~~~~~~zap!
 /       \                          (_) (_)                    / | \
 |       |     Bill Higgins   Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
 \       /     Bitnet:     HIGGINS@FNAL.BITNET
   -   -       Internet:  HIGGINS@FNAL.FNAL.GOV
     ~         SPAN/Hepnet:      43011::HIGGINS 
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll)
Subject: Re: How Quaint Of 'Woll' To Point This Out, And Then To Completely...
Reply-To: bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 07:02:43 GMT


In a previous article, han@anadolu.michigan.com (hasan.b.mutlu) says:

>
>
>
>
>
><1992Aug10.040941.5396@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>
>bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll)
>
>>that I feel it was an amazingly bad film.  Similarly, if I say 
>>"I hate Hassan Mutlu", it does not mean that I wish him ill (except perhaps
>>that his computer access would be eliminated from TPM), merely that I find
>>his argumentative processes to be both fallacious and annoying.  Saying that,
>
>How quaint of you to point this out, and then to completely ignore all
>the points I've made, many of whom are not dependent on whether or not
>we're talking about inside or outside of 'Woll-land.' During World War 
>II Armenians were carried away with the German might and cringing and 
>fawning over the Nazis. In that zeal, the Armenian publication in Germany, 
>Hairenik, carried statements as follows:[1]

(Rest of assorted garbage deleted)

>Any comment?

Yes, GET A BLOODY LIFE, you son of dual parentage.

IT WAS A JOKE.

I don't read your postings for 3 reasons.

1. I don't give a damn about what happens in Turkey or Armenia, it
   all deals with an event that may or may not have happened 74-78 years 
   ago, I am far more interested in the present or the future.

2. Frankly (or is it Brandon Lee) I don't have 8 hours a day to read
   everyone's postings,  and since you post an obscene amount of
   material, I tend to skip it altogether.

3. My conclusions are entirely based on the conclusions of people whose 
   ability to use effective logic and create intelligent postings, who 
   have said the same about you in much less positive terms.

And finally, don't take me out of context, I was responding to the 
misuse of the word "hate".  Nothing more.

"Mqay the great Bird of the Galaxy take a dump on your windshield".
-- 
---  !      ^    !\  !
 !   !     /-\   ! \ !
___  !__  /   \  !  \!  
                        Avoid cliches like the plague" George Shaw
From: ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Dr. Arens Praises Israel [was: Re: More Israel torture (as interrog
Date: 13 Aug 92 08:48:54 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

In article <22176@venera.isi.edu> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
>In article <11AUG199215311183@vms.huji.ac.il> rwerman@vms.huji.ac.il (ROBERT WERMAN) writes:

>
>When the Shabak claims that "effective interrogation is utterly
>impossible without the use of this tool", they are saying its use is
>routine.  Or do you suggest that most of the time Shabak engages in
>ineffective interrogation?

If Yigal actually care about humman sorrow he will better write about
the men woman boys ang girls , mainly Arabs, who are murdered and
raped every second day by their good brothers of the hamas and the
PLO, in Gaza Judea and Sammaria.

The Shabak prevented a lot of that murdering, Is this the reason for
Yigal's objection to the Shabak ?

   Gideon   Ehrlich
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss)
Subject: Re: politics
Organization: NCR E&M Columbia SC.
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 92 20:51:25 GMT

>> Who stole who? in 1948 we stole the land from you? come on!
>> 
>
>So I see you have no problem with returning the homes in Hebron
>to their 1929 owners and descendants, who were massacred and expelled.
>
>You likewise have no problem with returning the homes in the
>Jewish quarter of the Old City (Read East Jerusalem) to their
>pre-1948 owners.
>
>I could go on.
>
Don't balme us for what the British or the Romans did.

>
>We go through this every so often.  Two month's ago the
>Archeological Review had an article about the Philistines.
>It is pretty conclusive about what happened to them, the
>same thing that happened to the Israelites and the Judaeans.
>The Babylonians took them off and re-populated the land with
>other Eastern peoples.  Unlike the Israelites and Judaeans,
>the Philistines did not support a later ruler and get returned
>at least in part to their land.  This is confirmed by the fact
>that no mention is made of Philistines in Josephus' books
>(other than as a historical "they once lived here and fought
>against the Jews") or in the Roman accounts of the period.
>Even in Gaza, when Trajan's forces assault the Jewish city
>of Gaza, once the capital of the Philistine confederation
>(of 5 coastal cities with almost no connecting land, btw)
>no mention of Philistines is made, but 5 other non-Judaean
>peoples are mentioned.  Arabs are mentioned living in
>Amman (then Philadelphia) during this period though.
>
>Result: there haven't been Philistines in the Israel/Palestine
>region since 850 B.C.E.  The choice of the name Palestine
>was made by the Romans who were trying to make the place
>seem less Judaean after the 3 major revolts.  They dug up
>the name from the historical enemies of the Jews long gone
>from the region.
>
>By the way, Nabil, Philistines weren't Arabs or even Asiatic.
>They first attacked Egypt, then were pushed west to Gaza,
>then attempted to invade Judaea, were successful at first
>but driven back to 5 small coastal enclaves by King David.
>They were early Greeks.  Are you a Greek? Is Hasan Mutlu out there? -:)
>
>		Seth Rosenthal

O.K. I did not claim that we are Philistines. I am just saying that someone
else owned the land before Jews.

>

-- 
Nabil Idriss                           |       FOR EVERY ACTION AN OPPOSITE  
NCR - Midrange Products Division       |       AND EQUAL REACTION.
      Columbia, South Carolina         |      
email: nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM |
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:18937 alt.war:1821
From: chrism@cirrus.com (Chris Metcalfe)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,alt.war
Subject: Soviet Nuclear Weapons Stolen? / The Count
Date: 21 Aug 92 18:48:15 GMT
Organization: Cirrus Logic Inc.

In article <1992Aug21.112604.1702@cas.org> jac54@cas.org writes:
>In article <r8#ncrn.noring@netcom.com> noring@netcom.com (Jon Noring) writes:
>>Hello,
>>
>>I've been hearing rumors (the lowest form of information) that during the
>>breakup of the Soviet Union, some of the Soviet tactical nuclear weapons were
>>acquired surreptitiously by one or more Islamic countries
>
>	This was covered on sci.military some weeks ago.  The problem
>	with moving nuclear weapons without certain permissions is that
>	they are wired to self-destruct (i.e. rendered inoperable, we'd
>	have noticed the bang).  The best that they have is a few pieces
>	of fissile material that may still be in the right conformation
>	(maybe).  The Israeli nuclear stockpile is one of the worst-kept
>	secrets of our time.
>
>	Alec Chambers.

The April 6 issue of U.S. News and World Report has a "brief" that says
so far 6 warheads are missing in the restructuring from Soviet Union to
CIS.  Some were definately stolen -- their containers were found laying
empty after the warheads were removed.  Some were tactical level, I don't
know if any were strategic.

As to the issue that some may have been transferred to Iran, I doubt whether
any of the new Islamic Republics would be willing to hand over nukes to
a potential adversary like Iran.  These governments are fairly Western in
outlook, having already opened diplomatic relations with Israel. They 
probably see Iran correctly as a powerful radical government, bent on
expanding its influence by destabilizing its neighbors.  Similarly,
though they have cooperated in the past, could you see Syria giving nukes
to Iran?  The potential for a serious falling out in the future precludes
such options -- the Arabs understand each other better than the European
arms moguls understand them.

The above (hopeful) scenerios don't cover rogue Generals, etc.  I think that
Alec is right -- anything that Iran gets is likely to be inoperable, but can
serve as a model for reverse engineering.  The current Israeli assessment is
10 years to Iranian nuclear capability.

-- Chris Metcalfe
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: PLO at the peace talks????
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 21:06:17 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.063642.30484@ilx018.intel.com> bval@ilws61 (Valentine Bob) writes:

>With the Walkers, who sold vital secrets to our arch enemy, there was no one
>to punish. Plus they did it for money and not ideology, which by U.S.
>standards is acceptable.

Hahaha...  I think that you are actually right, here!

Americans can understand spying for money just as they can understand
fighting for oil.  But when it comes to meeting commitments on 
intelligence sharing or moral commitments to Kurds or Yugoslavs, 
then let 'em go to hell.  As James Baker is supposed to say,
"They don't vote anyways."  He could have said this about the 
Kurds or Bosnians just as easily.

It should then be no wonder that Israelis would be in no rush to give
up everything for American "guarantees" of security.  How many Jews
would be killed and raped before the Marines came in?  How much death
and devestation would pass by first?  How much?  Ask the Kuwaitis.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com               Pat Paulsen for President
American-Occupied New York                    This year he has a real chance!
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.
From: gene@cs.bu.edu (Gene Itkis)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israeli Loan Guarantees
Date: 21 Aug 92 14:32:38 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Department, Boston University, Boston, MA, USA
Originator: gene@csd

In article <22238@venera.isi.edu> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
[responding to my quote from Hank's posting -gene]

>Personally, I do not put much trust in the hysterical and tendentious
>West Bank settlers.  Their past statements on the status of things in
>the occupied territories do not inspire confidence in me.  Sorry.

Yigal, there is no doubt we do not agree on many (all?) issues. And it is not
too surprizing that I usually do not find your articles too convincing and
inspiring (even though I have read with interest many postings with which I
disagree - that's not a problem in itself for me ususally). I still was able to
maintain respect for you and your position (though it is difficult sometimes:).
But this post is very disappointing. This is pure personality attack and slimy
cheap innuendo. If you have some facts, you can tell us with references other
than your understanding. And please do not insinuate others are lying when
there is no basis for that (other than your disagreement). After all I do not
see any reasons why hysterical and tendentious leftist radicals should be
trusted any more than settlers (in particular, I believe Hank's credibility has
always remained among the highest on the net). I remember how Steve Goldfield
disqualified all x-soviets from argueing about USSR (which was according to
Goldfield a paradise on earth). His explanation was that we cannot be trusted,
we are biased (of course - we knew the truth about USSR and life there), and
what would you expect these traitors to say anyways (or something along the
lines). So I am familiar with tactics you employ above and I don't buy it.
Please do not insult the intelligence of the net people!

>In the meantime, Israeli papers from last week report that fanatic
>settlers have taken over more land in the occupied territories and begun
>building new units.  The military, after initially objecting, backed
>down -- not unlike they used to under the Shamir government.  Mr.
>Nussbacher must have been too busy to report this minor event.
>
>Curiously, the settlers seem to have learned something from the
>Operation Rescue folks here in the US.  I understand that they were
>shoving their children into the vans that were trying to take away
>settlers arrested at the site.

This is obviously self-contradictory: either the army backed down or it is
arresting the settlers. The whole issue, btw, was that gov. is continuing with
the settlements, not how much control it has over the settlers. And once again,
I believe in you (as Horton the elephant says) - you can do a lot better than
these cheap inuendos. If you have reports please post them. I do not put much
trust in your understanding. Sorry.
-- 
 ---
	Gene Itkis		(gene@cs.bu.edu)
From: al037@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dave Polewka)
Subject: han@anadolu.michigan.com (hasan.b.mutlu) -- anagrams (@=h)
Reply-To: al037@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dave Polewka)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 04:52:46 GMT




  ##################################################################
  ### han@anadolu.michigan.com (hasan.b.mutlu) -- anagrams (@=h) ###
  ### ********************************************************** ###::
  ###  1.  A cannibal must munch a mad hooligan!!  Huh!!         ###::
  ###  2.  Um, Hannah---can a Hindu stomach a li'l gumbo??       ###::
  ###  3.  Bush and Clinton, Ma'am!  Laugh, u maniac!  Hoh!!     ###::
  ### ********************************************************** ###::
  ##################################################################::
     :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

-- 
=======================
"Endeavor to persevere"
=======================
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: rivk@ellis.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis)
Subject: Re: BILL CLINTON ON ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE
Reply-To: rivk@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 21:34:34 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.160327.5018@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM> nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss) writes:
>>>If Rabin was correct in what he said last week on MCcneil Lehrer news
>>>hour that he is prepared to offer the Palestininas a first step self
>>>rule and elections on the next peace talks, it would be a good time
>>>to end of boycott. I would prefer to see a final solution before the
>>>end of the boycott.
>>
>>OK fine.  It should however be pointed out that the boycott (including
>>the secondary boycott) is well-nigh illegal under international law.
>>
>
>International Law? This is a joke. If there is any law in the world
>I will be living now with my parents in Haifa.

Law does not necessarily equal justice. There's international law,
and you're very quick to cite its authority when it's on your side.
I'm disgusted with this double standard, Nabil; I thought better of
your mind. Whether or not you think the laws are fair, they exist.

>heard him say the number of the palestinians outside the territory,
>that is in all the Arab countries: 1.9 Million.  He said he is not
>ready to accept their return. Is this fair? 

Yup. Because we own the country now.

>Nabil Idriss       

-- 
"Light one candle for those who are suffering pain we learned so long ago..."

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed)
Subject: Re: Kissinger, Ajami, and Rather display Anti-Arab Bigotry at Israeli Benefit
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 04:39:43 GMT

In article <1992Aug19.031905.7744@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein) writes:
>
>In a previous article, anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) says:
>
>>
>>I want to be careful that I am not perceived as perpetuating this notion that
>>"Jews control the media", however, it is clear that there is a certain amount
>>of difficulty in presenting reports critical of Israel without being branded an
>>"antisemite" or "self-hating Jew"; certainly more difficulty than even in 
>>Israel!
>>
>Methinks thou dost pretend too much.

Pot...kettle...black...etc.

>-- 
>bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu


-- 
Anwar Mohammed                           Graduate Student
anwar+@cs.cmu.edu  (NeXTmail welcome)    School of Computer Science
Voice: +1 412 268 3043                   Carnegie-Mellon University
Fax:   +1 412 681 5739                   Pittsburgh, PA  15213-3890
From: tichauer@valpso.hanse.de (Manfredo Tichauer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Arab/Isreali Wars
Date: 20 Aug 92 13:31:29 GMT
Organization: "The Private site of Manfredo Tichauer"

bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll) writes:

>
> attacks to avoid long combat.  Since Israel is substantially outnumbered in 
> people (I would suspect that Israel's entire population is less than that of
> Cairo alone.
> 

From "Statistical Abstract of Israel", 1991, published by the Central Bureau of
Statistics, Jerusalem :

Table II/1.- The Population, by religion

Year   Total         Jews        Moslems      Christians     Druze & others
----   -----         ----        -------      ----------     --------------
1990   4.821.700     3.946.700   677.700      114.700        82.600
    

The Egytian General Consulate in Hamburg,Germany, told me that the Cairoer po-
pulation is approx. 15 - 16 millions. The Consulate has no sources about it.
 
In the Statistical Year Book  for Foreign Countries,1991, edited by the German
Central Bureau of Statistics (Statistisches Bundesamt) in Bonn, it's written
that the oficial population of Cairo as a result of the census 1986 was
6.050.000 inhabitants. Now it should be about 14 - 15 millions.  

 
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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