HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: soc.women,soc.men
Subject: Re: What is Wrong with this picture?????
From: rivero@mdcbbs.com
Date: 3 Sep 92 09:36:28 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Electronic Data Systems, Unigraphics Division, Cypress CA
Nntp-Posting-User: rivero

In article <1992Sep3.093747.6981@wetware.com>, drieux@wetware.com (drieux, just drieux) writes:
> dsh@odin.ece.ncsu.edu (Doug Holtsinger) writes:
> 
> ] In article <1992Sep1.183441.9858@wdl.loral.com> 
> ] bard@cutter.ssd.loral.com writes:
> ] 
> ] > The patriarchal view is that women should not have the right to
> ] > abortion.  The reason: it gives women the power to control
> ] > reproduction.  
> ] 
> ] The patriarchal view is that abortion should be unrestricted 
> ] so that men have a better chance of escaping from their 
> ] responsibilities towards women and children.  
> ] 
> ] >J H Woodyatt (a.k.a. Dr. Strychnine)
> ] 
> ] Doug Holtsinger
> 
> 
> Who decided that it is a Man's Responsibility to
> Take care of Women and Children?????
> 

  Every woman who has gone into a family court to wrest money and total
custody from the husband, and especially those who feel justfied in using 
false sexual allegations to do so. That's a lot of voters, and from their
actions, that is indeed their decision. 

  Every man who ever worked his wa through school, built a career, or started
a business did so in part to BE responsible for the well being of his wife
and children. You think we enjoy losing 8 years of our lives
to job related stress?  "Oh Baby! Let me FEEL that heart attack PAIN!!!"



<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
|  Michael Rivero rivero@mdcbbs.com  Middle-Aged Mutant Ninja Animator   |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|                    When 911 won't work,  .357 will!                    |
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
From: stricher@masig.fsu.edu (Char Aznabul)
Newsgroups: soc.women
Subject: Re: Hating Men with Full Force
Date: 3 Sep 92 02:46:18 GMT
Distribution: na


Person in flux writes:

relates directly to the *fact* that working women work the equivalent of a 
full extra month each year in the household (reference lost; will try to 
find) doing cleaning, laundry, cooking, grocery shopping, whatnot and 
therefore needing to purchase the materials with which to do this extra
labor.

rivero@mdcbbs.com responds:

According to the United States Department of Labor, full time working women  
work an average of 8 hours per week less than full time working men.

	And if you carry out some computations, you find that
	for a 50 week work-year, the average man puts in an
	additional 400 hours at work, which amounts to 
	approximately 30 13-hour days.

rivero@mdcbbs.com continues:

The majority of men also contribute to the household chores, usually focusing
on tasks which exceed the strength of the woman, and those men don't require

	Which I might add, is in excess of the additional work
	time listed above. Anyone care to speculate how much
	that works out to (in days/weeks/months)?

	Sorry, I couldn't let the first comment just slide by.

	But I wonder what the breakdown is when single people are
	removed from the sample population.

	K'Char
From: n8946410@fozzie.cc.wwu.edu (Cameron Parish)
Newsgroups: soc.women
Subject: Re: Re: Feminists ignore Cosmetics?
Date: 30 Aug 92 22:12:41 GMT
Article-I.D.: henson.1992Aug30.221241.7827
Organization: Western Washington University

In article <29AUG199222205190@vaxa.weeg.uiowa.edu> sklautky@vaxa.weeg.uiowa.edu (Stephen Klautky) writes:
>In article <73740001@hpsad.sad.hp.com>
>sam@hpsad.sad.hp.com (Vicky Hansen) writes:
>
>> I am not nearly as concerned with western women's use of cosmetics as I
>> am with their 'need' to be scrawny.
>Yes, I agree.  

	Me too!

>> At 5'5" our society claims I should
>> weigh in the neighborhood of 120lb.  Yet to maintain 20% body fat (that
>> is the level recommended by the medical people), I need to weigh 150lb.

	Unless you're a model, in which case you should weigh even less.  :(

>Keep in mind that while anorexia is common
>in our society obesity is much more prevalent, not to mention poor
>nutrition overall.  

	I'm not entirely convinced that this is true for females in my
age/class group (which is young college age, I suppose.)  Most of the women 
I've talked to about this are, or have been, at least slightly anorexic.  
I think eating disorders are dreadfully underreported, possibly because
they are the norm.  I also think that many people with eating disorders
don't really think much about it:  me, for instance.  I lost ten percent
of my body weight in two months last year, and didn't really clue into 
the fact that something was *wrong*.  (I know, this doesn't count as 
Real Anorexia:  I think the classical anorexic is obsessed with his/her
weight, not just one who stops eating.)

	Does anybody have any solid numbers on obesity, with breakdowns
by age, sex, and maybe economic status?

>For a person in their teens and twenties it can be a social stigma to be
>overweight. 

	To put a slightly different spin on the matter:  not only is it
undesirable to be overweight, it is *desirable* to be underweight -- though
not to the point of looking like you're on the brink of death.  I think
this might be especially true at my age, 20, when we women are supposed to
be desirable young nubile things.  (At least, I *hope* this nonsense dies down
when I start reaching for middle age.)  

	"You're too skinny," is all too often a compliment.  It can mean,
"Wow, you look really good."  


	-- Cam Parish, who has since learned to eat like a reasonable
			human being.
Newsgroups: soc.women,alt.sex.wizards
From: bradley@s58.csrd.uiuc.edu (David K. Bradley)
Subject: Re: How to relieve menstural cramp
Organization: Univ of Illinois, Center for Supercomputing R&D, Urbana, IL
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 92 01:09:20 GMT

Working out and being physically fit have helped reduce menstural cramps for
several women I know.  I don't mean that they go work out when they get
cramps, but rather that their cramps are less pronounced or nonexistant when
they have been physically active during the previous month.  Of course this
doesn't work for everyone.
--
	David Bradley                bradley@csrd.uiuc.edu
	Center for Supercomputing Research and Development
	University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Newsgroups: soc.women
Subject: Re: Women are inferior
From: rivero@mdcbbs.com
Date: 2 Sep 92 10:17:24 GMT
Organization: Electronic Data Systems, Unigraphics Division, Cypress CA
Nntp-Posting-User: cuy

In article <1992Sep2.041229.14127@news2.cis.umn.edu>, karypis@epx.cis.umn.edu () writes:
> It is true...  Women were not created equal.  They are clearly inferior
> to men....
> 
-- 

  Tell me, does Elvis talk to you?





<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
|  Michael Rivero rivero@mdcbbs.com  Middle-Aged Mutant Ninja Animator   |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|   Theory 1. It's a man starting a flame war.                           |
|   Theory 2. It's a woman starting a flame war.                         |
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
From: sam@hpsad.sad.hp.com (Vicky Hansen)
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 16:20:53 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Feminists ignore Cosmetics?....Why don't you guys get a JOB?
Organization: HP Signal Analysis Division - Rohnert Park, CA
Newsgroups: soc.women

In soc.women, sklautky@vaxa.weeg.uiowa.edu (Stephen Klautky) writes:

>   > I am not nearly as concerned with western women's use of cosmetics as I
>   > am with their 'need' to be scrawny.
>   > At 5'5" our society claims I should
>   > weigh in the neighborhood of 120lb.  Yet to maintain 20% body fat (that
>   > is the level recommended by the medical people), I need to weigh 150lb.
>
>   This sounds unusual to me.  You may be one of those (relatively rare)
>   people that has an odd metabolism.  On the average, though, the accepted
>   value sounds reasonable.  Keep in mind that while anorexia is common
>   in our society obesity is much more prevalent, not to mention poor
>   nutrition overall.  The need to be "scrawny" (a bad word for those
>   who are naturally slim, non?) does not work very well.  The effect it
>   has (IMHO) is on the emotional well-being of women and men.

I was not at all referring to people who are naturally thin.  Some people
have small bone structures and slim muscles and could actually be too fat
at the 'recommended' weight.  I was referring to people like myself who are
of a sturdier build -- it has nothing to do with metabolism.  I have a heavy
bone structure and the muscle system that usually accompanies one and it 
would be quite unhealthy for me to weigh 120 pounds.  As for obesity, I agree
that that is a problem for many people but a simple height/weight chart or
the current "in" look should not be used to determine who is obese.  For men,
the recommended body fat is 15% and for women, it is 20%.  The healthy goal
is to way as much as possible without going over that percentage (i.e. keep
osteoporisis in check and eat/excersize to keep lean body tissue).
P.S. Your comments about 'reasonable' and 'obesity' and 'odd' make me jump
to the conclusion that you have the impression that I appear large.  My face
is thin and my waist is 26" so very few people would ever guess I weigh 150.
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
 | Vicky Hansen                      | e-mail: sam@hpsad.HP.COM         |
 | Firmware - 859x Product line      | Telnet: 794-4442                 |
 | HP Microwave Instrument Division  | AT&T: (707) 794-4442             |
 | 1212 Valley House Dr.             | HPDesk: Vicky HANSEN/HP5300/UM   |
 | Rohnert Park, CA 94928-4999       | HP Mailstop: 2LR-R               |
 |----------------------------------------------------------------------|
 |        Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty         |
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.women
From: kls4344@ritvax.isc.rit.edu (Person in flux)
Subject: Re: Hating Men with Full Force
Reply-To: kls4344@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 12:05:58 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.152345.16950@news.nd.edu>, slarsen@monet.helios.nd.edu 
(susan larsen) writes:

>I would have to agree with you on this, Katie.  In my dialog with women
>at workbreaks, on the front porch, the store, anyplace where women gather
>exclusive of men, man-bashing abounds.  And the most vocal at it are the 
>"mainstream women" (as opposed to any hue of "feminist).  I think that 
>some of the men who are claiming that such acts are "outrageous" and 
>that net.women must be exaggerating are completely missing the point. 
>This man-bashing DOES exist, and it happens so frequently that I believe 
>that women use it as a female-bonding mechanism.  This is not a positive
>situation, IMO, but just because we don't like to hear about it does 
>not change the fact that it is happening.

Sue, your observation that this sort of man-bashing happens so frequently that
it appears to be a sort of bonding mechanism for women struck a chord with me. 
I wonder if this behavior isn't some sort of alternative for these women who
may well not feel empowered by or involved with the "traditional" feminist
movement; the bonding could be their substitute and their way of empowering
themselves.

And I want to add that just as men won't behave the same in bachelor parties if
women are around, these mainstream women probably won't exhibit this particular
behavior around men.  Ironic, huh?  

Katie
From: drac@uumeme.chi.il.us (Bruce Maynard)
Subject: Bio-abortion vs Mental-abortion
Organization: UUMEME Public Access UNIX
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 92 05:31:07 GMT

   It always amazes me, when I see on tv/in print that some people seem to
take it for granted that, although OTHERS are not permitted control of their
own bodies, these people (protesters of various sorts) seem to believe they
have the right to deny free passage to/from clinics/med-offices/even the 
occasional hospital, whilst in the meantime shouting abuse at the people
they're trying to block... it seems to me to me to be part and parcel of
a general relaxation of social attitudes. Time was, for example, when looters
found "doing their thing" after some disaster/riot/whatever would be summarily
shot (if caught "in the act"), and prison USED to be something to AVOID;
now, prof. thieves have said, upon being questioned as to why they were so
easily caught, that they WANTED into prison, as "where else can you learn from
the pros"?!? 

   Flame away if you will, but I still see the blocking of clinic/whatever
doors & hallways as being no different than much of the crap pulled by
some of the know-nothings on the universities of a coupla decades ago... and,
instead of coddling social misfits, many of whom I would suspect of 
participating in these shenanigans because it's the "in" thing to do or to
garner publicity, when the police got their grubby mitts on the students 
involved, there was some serious head-cracking. 

   Social change CAN be done, but to resort to mob tactics is foolish; it
gathers no respect in most cases, indeed it LOSES it. Personally, I have NOpect whatsoever for anyone picking up a sign and shouting obscenities when there
are a thousand other avenues for change.

   If it makes any difference, I consider my position on abortion to be 
middle-ground. I do NOT support the wholesale banning of same, but on the other
hand, neither do I in any way support it as a means of after-the-fact birth 
control. I wish I had a means of ensuring that the only abortions that would
be done would be for good reason, and not "I forgot my pill", or "We never
thought we'd "get caught"... unfortunately, I dont. I do not, however, and
never will support wholesale banning of a perfectly legitimate procedure.

Newsgroups: soc.women,talk.abortion,alt.child-support
From: Will Steeves <goid@zooid.guild.org>
Subject: Re: Will Steeves' Posting
X-To: R. CAGE
Organization: The Zoo of Ids
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 01:17:00 GMT

wreck@fmsrl7.srl.ford.com (R. Cage) writes...
RC> If he brings his software back up and keeps "cross
RC> posting" without fixing this problem, I'm going to
RC> start bombarding his feed site with demands that
RC> he be cut off.  I've warned him already in e-mail.
RC> I hope that others will support such an action.


Enough already!  (My, aren't we hostile?  Mind you, I don't disagree with
your feelings, just the rather threatening way that you expressed them ...
but it's a free country, after all).

Hold your fire...The damn thing has been fixed.  (not half-fixed...)

As it turns out, the posting system at ZOOiD was being modified, so I believe
that this had a little bit to do with it.  Indeed, sending silicon copies in
SLMR was *not* a problem before the system was modified ; now that it is, I
have modified my posting style.

Sorry for taking so long to fix this mess.  The reason for the long delay,
is that I am about two weeks behind in my packets, so naturally, it took me
about two weeks to find out that my postings were causing a problem, then
after I began experimenting to find a solution (sorry, but being a newbie and
a definite non-guru, I did not realise that there were test groups!), it took
two weeks to find results, and only then was I able to confer with my Sysadmins
about it.

Mind you, your having put the thumbscrews to them (I believe you did), didn't
exactly slow things down either.

To those who were patient enough to wait this out - Thank you!

To those who were not - You have my apologies.

---
Will Steeves, goid@zooid.guild.org                      "Neil Hull is GOiD"
ZOOiD BBS, Toronto, Ontario - The Zoo Of Ids            "GOiDS Rule"
(416) 322-7876
---
 * SLMR 2.1a * It's Ensign Groom.  He's wed, Jim.
Newsgroups: soc.women
From: bev@opusc.csd.scarolina.edu (Beverly Huntsberger)
Subject: Re: Hating Men with Full Force
Organization: Univ. of South Carolina, Columbia
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 19:34:59 GMT

In <stricher-200892103837@stayman.ocean.fsu.edu> stricher@masig.fsu.edu (Char Aznabul) writes:


>That's the real issue being raised - will feminism become
>a doctrine of hate, or will it find the moral courage to
>stand up to the spreaders of hate?

>I for one have my doubts, but I encourage you to try.

>K'Char

	Personally, I have my hopes that feminism will
	continue to have "the moral courage to stand up
	to the spreaders of hate" AND continue to allow
	the venting of our natural responses to that hatred.

	Most days I'm content to continue on in a very pro-peace
	direction. And then, one day, along comes some piss-ant
	who dumps on me because I'm a woman and he's not. At
	which point, it really clears my head and calms me down
	to get a chance to read an article like the "Hating Men
	with Full Force".
	
	Helps me see myself in a new light. I can empower
	myself with the knowledge that I absolutely have the 
	choice to hate men for what they do to me. And then, I
	can back to working for peace with renewed energy and
	confidence, keeping the power, and allowing the hatred
	to fade.
	
	Bev
-- 
Bev Huntsberger		bev@grover.csd.scarolina.edu
			The University of SOUTH Carolina
Personally, I have nothing against incumbents.
I'm simply exercising my right to vote.
Newsgroups: soc.women,soc.men,misc.legal,talk.abortion
From: Will Steeves <goid@zooid.guild.org>
Subject: Re: Will Steeves' Posting System Down
X-To: ARIC C. ROTHMAN
Organization: The Zoo of Ids
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 15:55:00 GMT

arothman@eve.wright.edu (Aric C. Rothman) writes...
ACR> If this were so, why did he act responsibily and elect not to continue
ACR> posting while his poster software was xeroxing everything he said?

Unfortunately, Aric, I *was* posting, although at a reduced volume, and at
the same time, I was conducting experiments as to what posting style was
causing the problems.

The problem, I believe, had to do with the fact that ZOOiD's posting system
was being updated.  Thus, my old style of cross-posting was no longer working.

I believe that it now works, but granted, it will take me two weeks to find
out if it really DOES work.  Mind you, nobody has sent me any complaint
letters, so I believe that it does work now.

Thanks for your patience...  (this includes everyone, even the ones who
wrote nasty letters... :-) )

---
Will Steeves, goid@zooid.guild.org                      "Neil Hull is GOiD"
ZOOiD BBS, Toronto, Ontario - The Zoo Of Ids            "GOiDS Rule"
(416) 322-7876

(UNIX Guru ...  NOT!)
---
 * SLMR 2.1a * Neil Hull is GOiD.  I bet you've heard THAT one before!
Newsgroups: soc.women
From: bhv@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris)
Subject: Re: Hating Men with Full Force
Organization: Motorola, CCR&D, CORP, Schaumburg, IL
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 18:49:25 GMT

In article <1992Aug25.203023.476@news.nd.edu> slarsen@mozart.helios.nd.edu (susan larsen) writes:
)In article <1992Aug24.225136.8890@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com> bhv@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris) writes:
)>
)>Also, there is absolutely *nothing* like the organized politcial and directed
)>male bashing that we see in politics today from the homosexual male front
)>(or the non-homosexual male front, for that matter).  There aren't any male
)>McKinnon's or Dworkins (IMO).
)
)I wouldn't be too sure about that!  On the purely censorious front, we have 
)Donald Wildmon, Jerry Falwell, and a host of other religious-types more 
)than willing to do whatever it takes to not only censor, but punish folks
)involved in pornography.

That's a good point.  But consider some of the following, which is more the
sort of thing I had in mind than the antipornography issue:

Another noted feminist, Andrea Dworkin, in a keynote speech 
to a conference entitled "Women in a Violent 
Society," called on women to become "part of a secret life" and 
to take it upon themselves to judge and execute 
abusive men. "I am asking you to stop men who beat 
women...get them jailed or get them killed." (Montreal Gazette, 
13 May 1991). 

Barbara Jordan: (keynote speaker at Dem. natl. convention in an earlier
speech to a woman's group)

"I believe that women have a capacity for understanding and compassion
which a man structurally does not have, does not have because he cannot
have it. He's just incapable of it."

)As for gender-bashing, I would equate the legal attempts of a McKinnon or 
)Dworkin with that of a Bush or Quayle, those two great Republican leaders
)who would do all they could to force women back to hearth and home. In fact, 
)Mckinnon and Dworkin are less scary gender-bashers because they don't have 
)a say on who the next Supreme Court appointee will be.

)As a single working mother, I feel personally affronted at the characterizations 
)of single motherhood that the Republican clowns have gotten away with, on 
)prime-time TV, no less.  No, check that, affronted is not quite accurate, 
)I feel threatened by those folks!

That's a good point - do you have any other examples of female-bashing that
you can think of?   Especially ones that don't immediately backfire
and 'blow up' on the basher?
From: slarsen@monet.helios.nd.edu (susan larsen)
Newsgroups: soc.women
Subject: Re: Hating Men with Full Force
Date: 26 Aug 92 18:49:37 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Notre Dame, Notre Dame

In article <1992Aug26.150821.16499@news.nd.edu> slarsen@monet.helios.nd.edu (susan larsen) writes:
>(Char Aznabul) writes:
>
>>And you know what? I betcha they'll eventually succeed. Maybe in another
>>10 years, but succeed they will.
>
>I would be willing to take up that action.  Twenty bucks, maybe?  You see, 
>I do not think that a conservative Supreme Court would dare to chop at 
>such a fundamental constitutional principle as "guilty until proven 
>innocent."  

Errr, make that "innocent until proven guilty......." 
Backwards talk I today.

Sue Larsen
slarsen@berlin.helios.nd.edu
From: sam@hpsad.sad.hp.com (Vicky Hansen)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 20:49:56 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Feminists ignore Cosmetics?....Why don't you guys get a JOB?
Organization: HP Signal Analysis Division - Rohnert Park, CA
Newsgroups: soc.women

    ><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    >|  Michael Rivero rivero@mdcbbs.com  Middle-Aged Mutant Ninja Animator   |
    >|                                                                        |
    >| In the Middle East, women are raised to always cover their faces with  |
    >| viels. Modern feminists point to this practice as proof of how these   |
    >| women are oppressed. Yet here in the Western (so called) Civilized     |
    >| countries, women are raised to cover their faces with cosmetics, to    |
    >| the tune of 50 billion dollars a year. In this regard, American women  |
    >| are just as oppressed as their eastern sisters while having to pay far |
    >| more for the priviledge. Why do the feminists pay such scant attention |
    >| to this most visible abuse of women's skin, health, and wallet?        |
    ><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 I am not nearly as concerned with western women's use of cosmetics as I
 am with their 'need' to be scrawny.  At 5'5" our society claims I should
 weigh in the neighborhood of 120lb.  Yet to maintain 20% body fat (that
 is the level recommended by the medical people), I need to weigh 150lb.
 That 30 lb discrepancy oppresses more women than makeup does.  If I were
 to weigh in at 120, my health, intelligence, personality, etc. would all
 suffer -- all in the name of "looks".

 Men are allowed to carry a lot more excess weight before being considered
 unattractive.
Newsgroups: soc.women