HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: diaz@oakhill.sps.mot.com (Rafael Diaz)
Subject: Re: are jews racists?
Organization: Motorola Inc., Austin Tx.
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 18:50:17 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.093741.29858@cc.uow.edu.au> u9066624@cc.uow.edu.au (Tippu Hassan) writes:
>
>hi all 
>
>im a new commer to the group. i dont know if this topic has been discussed 
>earlier or not but i would like to know if the israelis feel guilty at all
>for what they are doing to the  palistinians.
>
>it seems to me that the palistinians are having to go through the same hell 
>jews went through under the nazi's.
>

	Yet another racist PIG on T.P.M. I suggest you go down to your local
library and start reading about the Holocost. Then spend couple more days reading
about Israel from 1930 to 1975, and ONLY  then put your thoughts on T.P.M......

>							TIPPU
--Rafy

-- 
________________________________________________________________________
		       __        _    
  =_   __   ___    =  /  )      / )   ==========   diaz@sigi.sps.mot.com
 =  ) /_ )     )  =  /--<  _  -/-     == oakhill!sigi!diaz@cs.utexas.edu
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:19842 talk.politics.soviet:7831 soc.culture.greek:8737 soc.culture.europe:8292 soc.history:8178
From: michaelp@ifi.uio.no (Michael Schalom Preminger)
Subject: Re: How Much Did The U.S. Get?
Organization: Dept. of Informatics, University of Oslo, Norway
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 20:01:54 GMT
Originator: michaelp@trantjern.ifi.uio.no


In article <1992Sep10.180958.26254@discus.technion.ac.il>, davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami) writes:> 
                                  .
                                  .

> I think that not killing Saddam Husein (or at least trying the best to
> do it) was a MAJOR mistake , again motivated by stupid righteousness
> and incompetence.

Quarreling about what is right or what is wrong is one thing. Moral is relative.

But believing that Saddam still sitting as president is a "mistake
motivated by stupid righteousness" of the U.S is to my opinion very naive.

Nothing "righteous" in Saddam still in power. It is a practical choise done by
the U.S thinking mostly about Turkey and the Curdish problem in the north, and
Shia moslems in the south. After killing 250000 to punish Iraq and
Saddam, Saddam is still the best choice for the U.S. 

No mistakes. The word is interests.

Michael
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: rothberg@bimacs.BITNET (Danny Rothenberg)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Fair Swap
Date: 13 Sep 92 16:55:48 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

In article <1992Sep11.073925.3382@mcs.kent.edu> rayes@Snake.mcs.kent.edu (Sandra Rayes) writes:
>In article <18oep2INNsu8@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein) writes:
>>
>>In a previous article, rayes@Snake.mcs.kent.edu (Sandra Rayes) says:
>>
>
>>
>>>As for institutions...ever heard of Al Aqsa???  It USED to be...before
>>>occupation, that is...a powerful religious center...it is mentioned in
>>>the Qur'an and many students of Islamic Shariah were educated there
>>>throught the years.
>>
>>An oasis in a desert.  Little attention was paid to it until the
>>reestablishment of Israel became a realistic possibility.
>>
>Baloney....it is mentioned in the Qur'an...Prophet Muhammad visited
>there and many Muslims from the Sham and even further used to go there
>in lieu of Hajj in Mecca (since they didn't have money and Jerusalem
>was closer).  Al Aqsa is tied with the BEST personalities in Islamic
>history.  I have met a lady who was educated there (pre '67).
>
>Sandra.
>
>>
>>--
>>bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu

How many times is Jerusalem mentioned in the Jewish bible?  656 to be
exact.  How many times is Jerusalem mentioned in the Islamic bible, ie
Koran?  Never explicitly.  The nearest that it gets is when it
mentions Mohammed's night journey to 'El Aqsa' (the 'furthest place' (please
forgive me if I have made a mistake in the translation)).  (After Dr
Yosef Burg, Israel's long-time Minister of Religious Affairs,
explaining Israel's attatchment to Jerusalem for Jimmy Carter during
the Camp David negotiations in 1978.)

When was the Jewish bible written?  Certainly before the beginning of
the modern [Xian] era.  And the Koran?  Well, it certainly could not
have been before the seventh century as Mohammed did not even live
before then.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Danny Rothenberg            |    ^     Ellul is here, so:  (I also forgive
Bitnet:                     | \-/-\-/   "Repent now!        everybody)
rothberg@bimacs             |  X   X     Avoid the Yom Kippur rush!"
Internet:                   | /-\-/-\      -Nero (aka Harry Blacker)
rothberg@imacs.cs.biu.ac.il |    V    Ketivah VeChatimah Tovah-Shanah Tovah
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: horen@rs.com (Jonathan B. Horen)
Subject: Re: The Ugly Palestinian
Organization: Renaissance Software, Inc.
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 21:07:05 PDT

In article <1992Sep7.034830.7370@usl.edu> pssres12@ucs.usl.edu (Vignes Gerard M) writes:
>	If Hanan Aswari is the Good Palestinian,
>	and Ahhmed Jebril is the Bad Palestinian,
>	can you guess who Yassar Arafat is?

Uh-h-h, Hussein of Jordan dressed "butch"?
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Religion and Politics (was: Re: CLINTON SPEECH TEXT...)
From: scott@anasaz (Scott Gibson)
Date: 4 Sep 92 01:25:27 GMT
Reply-To: scott@qip.UUCP (Scott Gibson)
Organization: Anasazi, Inc.  Phoenix, Az

In article <1992Sep3.011438.23967@das.harvard.edu> adam@sparkle.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
>In article <3694@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh) writes:
>
>>		"Since when did the affairs of the state
>>		take precedence over the affairs of God?"
>
>1789, or 1791, technically, because that was when the last state
>ratified the bill of rights.

For some, even earlier than that.  "Render unto Caesar," for example.




-- 
But you knew your figure cut a cipher/ Through every crafted plan/ And 
playing our game for real/ Saw through our plumbing jobs/ And wayward glands/
To a meaning of your own, in bones."  - Iain M. Banks, "Use of Weapons"
Scott Gibson                   {ames!ncar!noao!asuvax,mcdphx}!anasaz!qip!scott
Disclaimer:  These opinions are my own, and may change without prior notice.
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:19849 talk.politics.soviet:7838 soc.culture.greek:8744 soc.culture.europe:8299 soc.history:8185
From: makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Fair Swap
Date: 15 Sep 92 02:28:09 GMT
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ

In article <1992Sep12.053648.23367@mcs.kent.edu> rayes@Snake.mcs.kent.edu (Sandra Rayes) writes:

# In article <1992Sep11.143647.15879@ennews.eas.asu.edu> makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:

# >In article <1992Sep11.071520.1472@mcs.kent.edu> rayes@Snake.mcs.kent.edu (Sandra Rayes) writes:

# ># >Take a look at "From Time Immemorial."

# ># And after you look at "From Time Immemorial", which many scholars have
# ># repudiated as being based on false information and has been highly
# ># criticized, read the book "Blaming the Victims" by E. Said and C.
# ># Hitchens.  This book explains how inaccurate "Immemorial" was in 
# ># a very detailed and convincing way.

# >	There has been work. some of it published by Commentary magazine,
# >showing how "Blaming the Victims" and other criticisms of "From Time
# >Immemorial" are nonsense.

# "Blaming the Victims" is not the only book which criticized "...Time..."

	And Commentary is not the only place where the false critiques of
"...Time..." are exposed.

# Not to mention the fact that those scholars who did criticize "Time"
# are more highly regarded and truthful than Ms. Peters is.

	Highly regarded, maybe but I think irelevent to what is the truth.
Truthful, well if you say so ...

# >	Oh, by the way, when you read "Blaiming the Victims", pay caareful
# >to the part(s?) written by David Finklestein.  Steve Goldfield posted
 
# Uh, that's Norman Finkelstein.  

	Well excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me!

# >them to the net a while back, and the figures he gave not only did not
# >support his conclusions, but actually made a stronger than what Joan
# >Peters was atttempting to make.

# Look, any student of statistics can show you ways to turn numbers to
# your favor.

	THen why do you make them (through critiques of "...Time..." an
issue.

# But despite the figures and statistics of ALL the FOREIGN
# elements of Palestine, the Palestinians (ARABS!!) always have, and 
# always will be, in Palestine.

	THere has never been, is not know, and G-d willing never will be a
state called "palestine?", so the above is just romantic hogwash.

# And they were there when Herzl's
# followers from Europe landed there.

	Funny, but Herzl's followers were just going back to be with their
kin in their land, their kin having predated any known people now
inhabiting the area.

# Statistics are a collection of numbers on paper...

	I agree.

# Palestinians are
# HUMANS who have loved, tilled, and died in the land of Palestine.

	THere is no land of "palestine?".  THat is an artificial name
placed there to wipe out any Jewish memories.

# While the partisans are arguing over numbers, Palestinian hearts
# are bleeding for their homeland.

	Well, why don't they get something that belongs to them to bleed
over?
--

David Makowsky
makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.misc
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Israel and Kuwait in the Spotlight
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 22:37:13 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.232315.29424@dscomsf.desy.de> Hallam@zeus02.desy.de writes:
>|>>In article <1992Sep10.183041.26418@discus.technion.ac.il>
>|>davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami) writes:

>|>The Zionist (the precise term is Jewish) nature of the country is the
>|>raison d'etre of Israel even before Democracy. Denying it is same as
>|>denying the existence of Israel - this is of course forbidden.

>That is precisely the point at issue. In a democracy where everyone is equal
>there can be no laws supporting cultural hegemony.

In the US, it has been declared legal to use Government funds to
create Christmas scenes on Government property, as long as you add a
menorah, or something silly, so its a holiday display, not a Xmas
display.  This is hogwash.  There is a cultural hemogeny in the US.

Part of that homogeny is the 2 parents, 2.2 kids, and a dog in
suburbia culture.  Its supported by such things as Bush's veto of the
Familty leave act, which forces women to quit their jobs to take care
of kids.

Does this mean the US is not a democracy?

>Alternatively it would be perfectly legal to set up a party which wanted to
>remove the law making parties wanting to change the Zionist nature of the
>state. [illegal]

Such a law wouldn't pass.

>Even if these positions were blocked it would be perfectly legal to
>form a party which called for an annual vote *IN FAVOUR* of the
>maintenance of the special nature of Israel as a Zionist state. Of
>course were such a vote to fail then it would be equivalent to a vote
>in the opposite direction.

Why on Earth would you do that?  Do we vote every year to insure that
the US is a democracy?  Do the British give a vote of confidence every
year to the Royalty?

Is it even a good idea to change the nature of your state based on a
single vote, that is made routine?  What if the British had voted to
abolish the monarchy one year?  What if they wanted it back the next?
Fundamentals of a state should not be subjected to the shifting sea of
political opinions.

Adam


Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all.  How true that is.
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: are jews racists?
Date: 11 Sep 1992 15:46:49 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc4.ins.cwru.edu


   The title of your post defines YOU as a racist.  Why do people
who tell such lies, like yourself, feel that it will help further
your cause.  When you equate the Holocaust to Israel's problem in
resolving the Palestinain conflict, to make yourself look like an
interested observer, you really wind up making yourself appear as
just another lying zealot.  Do you know that asking the question,
"Are Jews Racists?", is racist in itself, or did you believe that
nobody would notice?  Do you not realize that you are a Jew hater
yourself?  How would you feel if some Jew asked "Are Palestinians
Pigs?"  Would you not regard such a question as racist?  If it is
obvious to you that one who could ask such a question is a bigot,
then you must surely see that you are a racist yourself.  If, for
some reason, you cannot see this, then you are too fucking stupid
to ever respond to again.  Please admit what a racist you are, or
go away.  Thank you.
-- 
   "One can be a racist.  Or one can be a human being.  But one
may not be both."
                                 - Rabbi Abraham Joshua heschel

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Subject: Re: Prisoners or Hostages?
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 19:32:35 GMT

arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:

>In article <BuBwLH.Fty@news.cso.uiuc.edu> eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>> . . .
>> Rabin cancelled 11 deportation orders which are targetted, not against
>> suspects, but against actual terrorists and terror organizers who have
>> seen their day in court.

>The same nonsense we have seen repeatedly on tpm.  Deportation orders
>are not, and never have been, applied to "actual terrorists" nor are
>they a legal punishment for any other sort of crime.

>Deportation is an administrative measure imposed at the discretion of
>military and/or government officials, just like administrative
>detention.
>a

Those who are targetted to be deported have the right to appeal to Israeli
courts with full appeal rights such as the right to a lawyer.  Whether they
are or aren't a legal punishment is a whole different subject.  However, what
deportations are not equal to is administrative detention.  A deportation order
entails a lot more legality and formal use of the legal system.
--
>Yigal Arens        "You'd think [Bush] was running for First Lady instead

Ed Shnekendorf.
From: greenie@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Live Online Conference re: US Elections
Date: 7 Sep 92 01:47:03 GMT
Organization: Carnegie Mellon Computer Club

I'm posting this message for the Conference Hosts;

The IDS World Network will be holding a "live", CB-Simulator chat conference
on the 1992 election and the candidates.  Topics currently being considered
include The Economy, Healthcare, Education, Family Values, Abortion, and
"World Leadership Role".

The first discussion will take place on September 4th from 7PM EST until
9:30PM EST.

We invite everyone to participate.  CB Chat discussions on the IDS World
Network are completely free.

To reach the IDS World Network, TELNET to ids.net [155.212.1.2].  If you have
an account already, you're all set, although you can apply for one by signing
on with GUEST as a username.

That's September 4th, 7PM EST on the IDS World Network CB Simulator.
telnet ids.net [155.212.1.2]
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:19727 misc.headlines:6251 talk.politics.misc:44176 alt.conspiracy:10496 alt.censorship:7396 soc.rights.human:3350 alt.discrimination:4207
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,misc.headlines,talk.politics.misc,alt.conspiracy,alt.censorship,soc.rights.human,alt.discrimination
Subject: Re: Islamic Fundamentalism in Egypt Targets Christians as it Did Jews
Date: 8 Sep 92 18:49:39 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.mideast
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

Jake writes:
>In article <1992Aug30.015355.8853@dscomsf.desy.de> hallam@zeus02.desy.de writes:
>>
>>I have as little time for Jake's hate posts against arabs as I have for
>>those of Mutlu or ARF.
>
>Seeing as I posted the article ENTIRELY from the New York Times, that
>bastion of racism and hatred against Arabs, perhaps you should address
>your comaprisons and concerns to them.  I would be pleased to get you
>their address.

You are sooooo funny, Jake.  Remember that piece of pure propoganda garbage
that you posted last year from the N.Y.T. pertaining to the Gulf War and the
so-called views of the Muslim Brotherhood in Jordan, Egypt, and Syria (et al),
whom were supposedly in favor of and supported the invasion?

You are so two faced concerning your position on Arabs - you completely deny
the injustices towards Palestinians in Israel while supporting the government
of Kuwait and inquire when their relationship will strengthen with Israel.

You never cease to amaze me Jake.  And the N.Y.T. seems to coincide with
your own personal views - biased and racist.

BTW, do you ever look in the mirror and cry?

Anisa

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000)
Subject: MORE ABOUT COLOR DISCRIMINATION IN OCCUPIED PALESTINE (ISRAEL)
Organization: LC
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 19:07:10 GMT

I received the following article about the discrimination there.   To make
story short, I'll only show sections of the article.  Apparently
the government knows that the Ethiopian Jews are converts, but not
*FULLY* converted yet. Read on.  -JLE

	JERUSALEM (UPI) -- ...
	...
	But younger members of the tightly-knit community of 40,000 Jews
airlifted from Ethiopia over the last decade said the dispute over their
kessim was only the most humiliating part of the growing bitterness they
feel over their reception in Israel.
	From a shortage of permanent housing for the Ethiopian immigrants to
the Israeli rabbinate's refusal to accept many of them as Jews, the
community's early complaints have given way to major protest
demonstrations that are only now beginning to capture the government's
attention.
	``The most pressing problem for the Ethiopian community in Israel,
more so than those problems of housing and unemployment, is the deep
insult to us as Jews,'' Jobza Etzinpa, head of the Movement of Ethiopian
Jews in Israel, said in a letter to the Chief Rabbinate.
	``Instead of actively integrating and connecting our community to the
nation of Israel, the discriminating policies of different governmental
ministries have contributed to the separation and tearing of this
community from the societal fabric of Israel.''
	It was a weeklong sit-in by some 50 kessim that finally brought the
invitation from Rabin to meet with them. On Thursday, hundreds of
Ethiopians joined their religious leaders and blocked the road outside
the prime minister's office. The demonstration turned violent when rocks
were thrown and police arrested 28 of the protesters. Nine people were
hurt in the pushing and shoving that ensued.
...

	Besides recognizing the authority of the kessim, the Ethiopians want
Israel to cease its requirement that the immigrants undergo a symbolic
conversion, which they call ``a great insult.''
...

	They are calling on the state to list them all as ``Jews'' on their
national identity cards. Currently, the line for religion on the cards
is marked ``Ethiopian'' or ``unknown'' for those who have not performed
the abbreviated conversion ceremony, which involves ritual immersion in
water.

jle
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: He Who Saves a Single Soul...
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 92 00:42:23 GMT

In article <bdm.715769687@cs.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:
>jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:

>>It shows that the Modern State of Israel is a continuation of an
>>old and documented Jewish State.  It is odd that you, an amateur
>>historian, regard this as "(recent) religious dogma". 
>
>You are putting words into my mouth.  The word "state" has a fairly 
>well defined meaning.  You can argue for the continuous existence of 
>the Jewish people/race/culture/religion/ even "nation" if you don't 
>mind giving your definition.  But you can't (as Jonathon did) argue
>for the continuous existence of a "state" because prior to 1948 there
>was no such state for at least thousands of years.  As far as I know,
>there is no legal connection between Israel-since-1948 and any ancient 
>state, so I think it is reasonable for me to describe belief in such 
>a connection as a "dogma".  Frankly I have no objection to you holding 
>such beliefs and no desire to argue against them.  Just don't present 
>them as "facts".

Coming from the guy who has spent the past half-year insisting that
there always was a Palestine but that it had no definite boundaries,
and that Jordan is entirely unrelated to the Palestine of old, this is
positively hilarious.  Perhaps we'll consider your pronouncements on
the legitimacy of Palestine/Jordan as "recent religious dogma", as
well. 

>>Seeing as it was you who described Biblical description of the ancient
>>Jewish State as "(recent) religious dogma", your apology to the net is
>>appropriate. 
>
>You can't read English, that's your problem.

I can read both English and Strine.  Perhaps you are having trouble
writing them.


-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com               Pat Paulsen for President
American-Occupied New York                    This year he has a real chance!
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast