HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jzimm@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Joann Zimmerman)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Non-rabelaisian farts
Date: 28 Dec 92 02:34:00 GMT
Organization: UT Art History
X-UserAgent: Nuntius v1.1



In article <1hl902INNmi3@morrow.stanford.edu> Francis Muir,
francis@oas.stanford.edu writes:
>In any
>case, with Chaucer living some one and a half centuries before Rabelais,
>the notion of refering to Geoffrey Chaucer as "Rabelaisian" approaches
>a gaffe of formidable proportions.

I refer Francis (yet again) to David Lodge's _Small World_, in which the
hero accidentally states that he is writing a monograph on the influence
of T.S.Eliot on Shakespeare. He is later convinced by some of his fellow
academics that this is indeed a fruitful idea.
--

"They like sitting around reading all the books there are. And then they 
love arguing about them. Some of those arguments go on for millenium 
after millenium. It just seems to keep them young, for some reason, 
arguing about books." -- Julian Barnes          

Joann Zimmerman (jzimm@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,rec.arts.sf.written
From: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,news.groups
Subject: Re: *Any* kind of r.a.b split, or at least a *serious* discussion
Date: 21 Dec 92 19:23:25 GMT
Reply-To: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: COMANDOS Project, Glesga Yoonie

mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin) wrote:
> You seem to be under the impression that rec.arts.books should function
> the way many "technical" newsgroups function: that is, one poster asks a
> question, and another responds, publicly or privately, with an answer.
> Me, I always thought that r.a.b. functioned as a forum for *conversations*.
> If I simply wanted answers to questions, I could consult my reference books.

Yeah.  Conversations about *books*, however broadly construed, like the one-
line summary of the group's remit says:

           Books of all genres, and the publishing industry.

That does not stretch to interminable maunderings, however they got started,
about modal logic and the ethics of sexuality, or the sociology of SAT
scores, and still less to the CB-like prattle that's built up over the last
few months which is about nothing in particular except the egos of the
protagonists.  If you want to do that sort of thing, get an IRC channel for
it.

As I emailed one of the people proposing the group split, I don't think it
would work without being backed by persistent, varied and unignorable
vilification of people who persist in waffling on in the parent group.  And
if enough of us stood up and did that, the egomaniacs might just get a sense
of relevance anyway, making the split unnecessary - most of the threads we're
complaining about *already* have obvious places to go to (like talk.politics.
homosexuality for the major one just now).

Followups to news.groups; protracted meta-discussions are inappropriate too.

[ One aspect that might be relevant to rec.arts.books: does anyone know of
  a good book about the sociology of interactive communications media, like
  amateur radio and CB?  The forces that drove their descent into triviality
  are clearly at work here too, and it might be nice to have a source of
  suitably minatory quotes to wave at the timewasters. ]

-- 
--  Jack Campin    room G092, Computing Science Department, Glasgow University,
17 Lilybank Gardens, Glasgow G12 8RZ, Scotland   TEL: 041 339 8855 x6854 (work)
INTERNET: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk or via nsfnet-relay.ac.uk    FAX: 041 330 4913
BANG!net: via mcsun and uknet     BITNET: via UKACRL    UUCP: jack@glasgow.uucp
From: hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: RE: Good Westerns
Date: 23 Dec 92 23:08:13 GMT
Organization: Clark University

Charles Portis' _True Grit_ is a classic Western of recent vintage (1968),
refreshing because it doesn't deal with the usual gunfighter cliches.
You can probably guess that from the opening sentence:

     People do not give it credence that a fourteen-year-old girl
     could leave home and go off in the wintertime to avenge her
     father's blood but it did not seem so strange then, although
     I will say it did not happen every day.

I will second the recommendation of Owen Wister's _The Virginian_.
Also Edna Ferber's _Cimarron_, and _Destry Rides Again_ by (I think)
Max Brand (though a better movie than book).  For cowboy stories as
opposed to shoot-'em-ups there are the Will James books ("Smoky the
Cow Horse" and "Cow Country", among others), which have excellent
illustrations done by the author.

A good true-life Western story is Gen. Nelson A. Miles' autobiography
_Serving the Republic_, which is almost certainly out of print, but
can often be found in libraries.  Miles was an unusual character for
his time, an officer who gained fame through fighting the Indians, but
constantly voiced his respect for them as human beings, and believed
that the U.S. government treated them shamefully.  The character
Nathan Brittles in John Ford's film _She Wore A Yellow Ribbon_ was
based on Miles.

Heather
HHENDERSON@vax.clarku.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: hoosiers@carson.u.washington.edu (Mary Loveless)
Subject: Re: Good Westerns
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 20:11:07 GMT

Eugene Manlove Rhodes is by far my favorite Western writer (he was a
*real* cowboy from New Mexico, and I'll be durned if I can remember the
name of one of his books. [ _Gene Autrey and the Golden Ladder Gang_ (or
something like that) ripped off one of Rhodes' better plots, however.]
Great sense of humor, good solid plots and literate writing.  The
introduction to his collected stories pointed out that a lot of time all a
cowboy had to do on the range, in a line shack or whatever, was *read*. 
And the Bull Durham packages included tiny print editions of Shakespeare's
plays and other good stuff.  And it is clear in my memory of Rhodes'
writing that his informal education had an effect on him.  (I don't mean
he wrote in Elizabethan English, confound it!) I think I'm on my way to
the library to see what I can find by Rhodes!  It has been well over 10
years since I have read any of his books...much too long.

 Mary Loveless  hoosiers@carson.u.washington.edu
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All of my opinions are self-righteously my own and **certainly** have
nothing to do with the University of Washington.

"I wonder how I'd look in *Madonna's* underwear."  Zippy the Pinhead
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: twain@milton.u.washington.edu (Barbara Hlavin)
Subject: Re: Project B.F.D. (was: An apology)
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 23:44:47 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.181937.25595@panix.com> pnh@panix.com 
(Patrick Nielsen-Hayden) writes:

>I have to say, the more I read this discussion and others like it in
>r.a.b., the more I like the evil elitists and their in-crowd scum friends,
>and the less I care for the white knights crusading on behalf of the
>downtrodden lurkers and newbies.
>
>Admittedly, there's lots of self-actualization potential in the
>shining-armor routine, particularly if you can hoke up a crusade on behalf
>of a few never-too-clearly-specified victims.  Drama!  Adventure!  And
>best of all, you don't actually have to be fun, witty or entertaining,
>which is (after all) a lot of work.  Just clutch those grievances to your
>bosom like a long-lost friend, and remember periodically to throw yourself
>to the ground while crying "Foul!"  This way people can tell that you're
>for Justice and Fair Play.
>
>Signed, An Oppressed, Downtrodden Newbie


Hey!  Patrick caught on right away! 

Someone show this man the secret handshake. 


--Barbara  



Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:23022 soc.culture.british:17954
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,soc.culture.british
Subject: A fishy tale (was for newbies (was Project B.F.D. (was an apology))
Date: 22 Dec 1992 14:49:09 GMT
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
NNTP-Posting-Host: oas.stanford.edu

Alan Hunter chirps:

	Dance for your Daddie, my little lassie
	Dance for your Daddie, my little one
	You shall get a fishie on a little dishie
	You shall get a fishie
	When the boat comes in. 

					Alan Hunter
					Johnson Hunter Ltd
					Isle of Islay, Scotland

Do you, by any miracle, export boxes of kippers? I haven't had a
good one since I got a box of Rumpy Brand from the Isle of Man, and
that was when Rudge motorcycles could still make a decent showing in
the Manx Grand Prix.

							RABworm

Postscriptum. And a Merrie Christmas to you and everyone else on my
second favorite Isle.

							
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: kamorgan@athena.mit.edu (Keith Morgan)
Subject: Christmas Reading
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1992 19:25:09 GMT

	.... I turned up the lights and the bright glare revealed all the more
cruelly the tattered figure before us. 

	Father Christmas advanced a timid step across the floor. Then
he paused, as if in sudden fear.

	"Is this floor mined?" he said.

	"No, no," said Time soothingly. And to me he added in a
murmured whisper, "He's afraid. He was blown up in a mine in No Man's
Land between the trenches at Christmas-time in 1914. It broke his
nerve."

	"May I put my toys on that machine gun?" asked Father
Christmas timidly. "It will help to keep them dry."

	"It is not a machine gun," said Time gently. "See, it is only
a pile of books upon the sofa." And to me he whispered, "They turned a
machine gun on him in the streets of Warsaw. He thinks he sees them
everywhere since then."

	"It's all right, Father Christmas," I said, speaking as
cheerily as I could, while I rose and stirred the fire into a blaze.
"There are no machine guns here and there are no mines. This is but
the house of a poor writer."

	"Ah," said Father Christmas, lowering his tattered hat still
further and attempting something of a humble bow, "a writer? Are you
Hans Andersen, perhaps?"

	"Not quite," I answered.

	"But a great writer, I do not doubt," said the old man, with a
humble courtesy that he had learned, it may well be, centuries ago in
the yule-tide season of his northern home. "The world owes much to its
great books. I carry some of the greatest with me always. I have them
here--" 

	He began fumbling among the limp and tattered packages that he
carried. "Look! _The House that Jack Built_ - a marvellous, deep
thing, sir - and this, _The Babes in the Wood_. Will you take it sir?
A poor present, but a present still - not so long ago I gave them in
the thousands every Christmas-time. None seem to want them now."

	He looked appealingly towards Father Time, as the weak may
look towards the strong, for help and guidance.

	"None want them now," he repeated, and I could see the tears
start in his eyes. "Why is it so? Has the world forgotten its sympathy
with the lost children wandering in the wood?"

	"All the world," I heard Time murmur with a sigh, "is
wandering in the wood." But out loud he spoke to Father Christmas in
cheery admonition, "Tut, tut, good Christmas," he said, "you must
cheer up. Here, sit in this chair the biggest one; so - beside the
fire. Let us stir it to a blaze; more wood, that's better. And listen,
good old Friend, to the wind outside - almost a Christmas wind, is it
not?  Merry and boisterous enough, for all the evil times it stirs among."
....

"Merry Christmas" by Stephen Leacock,
in _Frenzied Fiction_, London:1919.  

	
--

Keith Morgan kamorgan@athena.mit.edu
In the end nothing could be said of his work except that it was
preposterous and true and totally unacceptable. Edward Whittemore
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: yarnot@babbage.csus.edu (Jan Yarnot)
Subject: Who said it? (was Re: Project B.F.D. (was: An apology))
Organization: Moi?
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 03:30:42 GMT

In article <1992Dec22.011039.7306@netcom.com> dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig) writes:
>
>  Who was it who said "You can
>pretend to be wise, but you can't pretend to be witty"?

Certainly either Disraeli or Zeleny.

ObBook: I just finished _Once Upon a Time_, modern fairy tales, edited by Lester
del Rey and *mumble*, and illustrated by someone wonderful (it's in the hot 
clutches of the Resident Expert (Stands-With-a-Book) who nearly took my fingers
off when she snatched it away.)  Stories by del Rey, Asimov, Katherine Kurtz,
Barbara Hambly, others.  I just wish there were twice as many.

--
---Jan Yarnot, net.grandma.-- | Peace on Earth
                              | to people of goodwill.

CSUS depends on my every word.
From: yarnot@babbage.csus.edu (Jan Yarnot)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: 92 in rabreview
Summary: Thanks for the memories
Date: 29 Dec 92 02:09:14 GMT
Organization: Moi?

I've had an eventful r.a.b. year.  I read some 220 books, mostly
mysteries, but some of the best were by David Lodge (who is indeed
funny, and Catholic, and I don't think ex-, JoAnn, more muddlin'
through like I do, and who is married with two children, which
doesn't leave "gay" out, but the way he writes, I have my doubts)
(I don't want to get flamed.... I just mean his hetero-sex scenes
seem to indicate an authorial interest)
and Robertson Davies, both recommended here.  The one I found on
my own (well, my sister sent it to me) was _Cold Sassy Tree_ by
Olive Burns.  It reminded me a bit of _...and Ladies of the Club_
which I read a few years back.  Wm. Kinsella also delighted me
this year, with _Box Socials_.

A posting by Mike Morris at the beginning of the year got me going
on finally reading the Durant _Story of Civilization_ which we got in 
1966, and which has stood on a shelf reproachfully ever since.  Mike
reads 20 pages a day.  I know myself, and know if I missed one day or
two, I'd give it up, so I went to a possible-for-me 5 pages/day.  While
I was touring the Pacific Northwest this summer, I got way behind in
Greece, but managed to catch up.  I've read 2.5 of these this year, and
doomed to talk nonsense, I know if I'd read 4 times as many pages a day,
I'd not have read all 10 of the set I had (which Barbara finished out with
number 11, and thank you again, though as you see, it will take me a while
to get there!) but instead would have read nothing at all.
 
Next year I'm detouring through Gibbons' _Decline and Fall_, so may not
get to book 4.  The 5-pages-a-day appeals to the list-maker in me... the
person who makes lists and figures that's accomplished something.  At least
now when I pass the shelf, I don't feel guilty.  I may not get to it, but that
will be the fault of longevity, not working at it.

And I met Francis, and Barbara.  (And got to tour the Green library at Stanford,
and visited Powell's bookstore.)  It's been a good year, and a happy '93 to the
lot of you.

--
---Jan Yarnot, net.grandma.-- | When you go out into the world,
			      | watch out for traffic, hold hands,
                              | and stick together.
CSUS depends on my every word.|             --Robert Fulghum    
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: wayman@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Jeffrey Wayman)
Subject: Book on Al Capone?
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 22:14:38 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO  80523

I'm going to read a book on the life of Al Capone.  I assume there
are a few written; can anyone point me toward a few of the best 
ones?  Thanks.

Jeff      wayman@lamar.colostate.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: msmorris@watsci.UWaterloo.ca (Mike Morris)
Subject: Re: Non-rabelaisian farts
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 05:31:21 GMT

                                    Monday, the 28th of December, 1992

Joann Zimmerman writes, regarding Julian Barnes' _History of the
World in 10 1/2 Chapters_:
  I recommend the entire book; it's even got a nice art history essay
  tucked into the middle, complete with color repro of the painting in
  question.

Plus the 1/2 chapter is a beautiful love letter to his wife.

               Mike Morris
       (msmorris@watsci.uwaterloo.ca)
From: torkel@sics.se (Torkel Franzen)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Van de Wetering (was: Sjowall & Wahloo and other series)
Date: 31 Dec 92 04:59:38 GMT
Organization: Swedish Institute of Computer Science, Kista

In article <30DEC92.22473154@vax.clarku.edu> hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu writes:

   >Van de Wetering also wrote an autobiographical non-fiction book entitled _A
   >Glimpse of Nothingness: Experiences in an American Zen Community_. 
   >Interesting reading, especially if you enjoy his simple, rather whimsical
   >writing style.

  This is the second of his Zen books. The first one, The Empty Mirror, about
his experiences in Japan, is a lot more interesting.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: kamorgan@athena.mit.edu (Keith Morgan)
Subject: Re: Call For Discussion: rec.arts.books.reviewed
Followup-To: rec.arts.books, alt.fan.lemurs
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 03:47:49 GMT

In article <1992Dec18.171313.21177@blaze.cs.jhu.edu> callahan@biffvm.cs.jhu.edu (Paul Callahan) writes:

>Now, rebuttals to specific objections: 
>Some say the volume is too low. I've typed "cd /usr/spool/news/rec/arts/books"
>and I see 414 articles posted since Dec 14.  This is low volume?  Compared to 
>alt.sex, maybe, but by civilized standards I'd say the volume is high enough 
>to merit a split.  Perhaps the claim was that the volume of book-related
>postings is too low to merit a separate group.  That's a more plausible
>theory, I admit.

	I kind of hate to bring this up but the traffic over the
possibility of a split is generating a hell of a lot of traffic
itself. Besides that, what will the difference be? Most people will
probably cross-post anyway. Paul, you seem to be chastising Francis
for his promotion of a judicious use of "n", "k", and "K". I don't see
what's the matter with that in the first place. If you killed the
discussion that didn't interest you, then wouldn't you have the low
traffic literature discussion that you seem to want? Anyway, my
suggestion is, enough discussion, put out a RFD, let's put it to a
vote, I know which way I'll vote. Maybe then we can get back to this
supposed cliquishness that upsets everyone. 

Keith 


--

Keith Morgan kamorgan@athena.mit.edu
In the end nothing could be said of his work except that it was
preposterous and true and totally unacceptable. Edward Whittemore
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: twain@milton.u.washington.edu (Barbara Hlavin)
Subject: Re: non-fiction reading (was Re: _Dog Soldiers_ by R. Stone, a wild ride!)
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 00:36:11 GMT

In article <qkfrv5+@lynx.unm.edu> rsquires@cyclops.eece.unm.edu (Roger Squires) writes:
>In article <1992Dec21.175019.5560@u.washington.edu> twain@milton.u.washington.edu (Barbara Hlavin) writes:
>>
>>ADAM'S TASK: CALLING ANIMALS BY NAME, Vicki Hearne.
>>.  This book is her attempt to share her perception 
>>of how humans and other animals communicate with each other,
>
>	You might take a gander at _King Solomon's Ring_,
>	by Konrad Z. Lorenz.
>
>rms


I'm not sure I made myself clear.  Hearne is writing specifically 
about how animals and human beings communicate with each other. 

I see a bit of ambiguity in the way I phrased it, making it sound 
as if I were talking about different hierarchies communicating 
among themselves. 

Which is Lorenz's book about? 


--Barbara 

Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:23459 news.answers:4768
From: sean@cobra.dra.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,misc.books.technical,alt.internet.services,comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: The Online BookStore Announcement: The Internet Companion
Date: 22 Dec 92 09:53:41 CST
Distribution: inet
Organization: Data Research Associates, Inc.

In article <kko.725012348@sfu.ca>, kko@fraser.sfu.ca (Samuel Ko) writes:
> Yes and No ... A-W has produced two books on the Internet within a 
> short period of time ... The other one is Internet System Handbook
> by Daniel Lynch and Marshall Rose ... That one is far more technical
> in nature than any other books in this field ... However, I think 
> the marketing dept of A-W should do some promotion on the netnews ...

After seeing the flamage generated by the rather modest posting on
The Internet Companion, why would any marketing department want to
even make the effort?  A rather vocal group has made it clear they
don't want that kind of information.

-- 
Sean Donelan, Data Research Associates, Inc, St. Louis, MO
Domain: sean@sdg.dra.com, Voice: (Work) +1 314-432-1100
From: dac@prolix.apana.org.au (Andrew Clayton)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Mangled song lyrics
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 14:50:32 GMT
 <1992Dec30.223330.19793@lunatix.uucp> <1hteeaINNghp@shelley.u.washington.edu>
Organization: More like Dis~, really.
X-Newsreader: Arn V1.00

In article <1hteeaINNghp@shelley.u.washington.edu>, Mary Loveless writes:

> All the scones splayed on the trout, round and crisp and pleasin'.
> 

Manfred Mann's song "Blinded by the Light" has inpossible lyrics.


SO reckons she and a friend worked the chorus out to be:

                      "Blinded by the light
                       Wrapped up like a douche
                       and an aroma in the night."

They resorted to checking the lyrics on a songsheet, and found it was:

                      "Blinded by the light
                       Ripped off like a deuce
                       Another runner in the night."

I vote for verse 1 in the comprehension stakes! :-)

Dac
--
dac@prolix.apana.org.au              David Andrew Clayton.           // _| _  _
dac@prolix.sserve.cc.adfa.oz.au      Canberra, Australia           \X/ (_](_](_
                    <Using ARN on an Amiga 4000. Yay!>
Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:22926 news.groups:24759
From: ian@spider.co.uk (Ian Heavens)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,news.groups
Subject: The Folio Society (was: Re: *Any* kind of r.a.b split, or at least a *serious* discussion)
Date: 21 Dec 92 14:50:56 GMT
Organization: Spider Systems Limited, Edinburgh, UK

In article <BzLtA2.I64@dunaad.co.uk> ah@dunaad.co.uk (Alan Hunter) writes:
>
>Or you could try a book. I took a bribe at the end of last week and
>allowed the folio society to provide me, free of charge, with a "Chambers
>Biographical Dictionary" and a slip case containing "The Moonstone",
>"Armadale", "The Woman in White" and "No Name" in return for rejoining
>their fold. Despite a personal preference for "The Woman in White", I'm
>starting with "The Moonstone" where our butler recommends "Robinson Crusoe"
>as the book for all seasons.  As I recall Dickens recommends Hamlet at the
>beginning of "A Christmas Carol".  It's endless, you could read for ever
>and ever and live happily ever after. 
>
>I also find that I can pick up well printed and bound editions from the
>Folio Society of "The Source of the Nile" (Burton), "Revolt in the Desert"
>(TE Lawrence), "The Travels of Marco Polo" and "Symposium" over the course
>of the next year for 101.80 Sterling.  Not Bad. 

Blimey! Someone's mentioned books on r.a.b.  My membership of the Folio
Society has lapsed and the money is spent on nappies instead, but I acquired
some nice books over the course of four years or so.  The quality of the 
cover design, bindings and illustrations makes them very pleasant to read.
The current list often includes some off-beat authors among the classics. 

Samuel Pepy's diary, Gerald Brenan's 'South From Granada', Sybille Bedford's
'A Visit to Don Otavio', Pietro de la Valle's 'The Pilgrim', and five of
the eight volumes of Gibbon's 'Decline and Fall' (they stopped printing them
before I completed the set, regrettably) number among my modest Folio
collection.

Our transatlantic cousins might find them a bit pricy at around $30,
but they don't compare too unfavourably with the price of new hardbacks.


ian

---
	 Ian Heavens			ian@spider.co.uk                 
 	 Spider Software
 	 Spider Park, Stanwell Street		
	 Edinburgh, EH6 5NG, Scotland	+44 31 555 5166 (Ext 4347)
--
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books