HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ahsiung@bbn.com (Anita Hsiung)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Wanted: A crash course in composer's styles
Date: 17 Aug 92 21:19:09 GMT
Reply-To: ahsiung@labs-n.bbn.com (Anita Hsiung)
Organization: Bolt Beranek and Newman Inc., Cambridge MA
NNTP-Posting-Host: bbn.com

In article <13346.2a8be0d9@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu> egras@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu writes:
>
>>>>more often than in other pieces?  I mean, when you hear a classical
>>>>piece and say 'that sounds like Brahms', what is it about the piece
>>>>that tips you off that Brahms wrote it (if you didn't already know)?
>
>
>	While we're on the subject, can anyone edify me as to what the 
>the technical differences are between the music of different periods?
>It is usually obvious to one's ear as to whether a piece is classical or
>romantic, but what are the technical differences.  I'm not talking about
>forms.  I'm more interested in say listening to a section of a piece and
>saying "That is definitely romantic."

A few people have mentioned that there are no short cuts to learning
to identify music of different periods or composers.  While this is
true, there are ways to speed up the learning process.  I know I
subject my mother to millions of repetitions of Bach while growing up,
since the Junior Bach Festivals usually want lots of rounds in their
competitions.  After four rounds of listening to tots play Bach, you
can pretty much tell any Bach music after that.

I would say, listen carefully to radio stations.  One of the best
things KKGO here in So. Cal. does is sometimes they play different
versions of the same thing.  One example is Paganini's theme.
Rachmaninof has a piano concerto version, Brahms has a piano solo
version.  Someone else has a brass version.  After they played each
version, they'd tell us a little of the history, the differences, etc.
The DJ's are usually pretty good about describing the music being
played.  Getting used to different styles and learning to discriminate
comes a lot easier just through exposure.

The way I guess at composers and styles is by comparing to what I know
already.  Anything that sounds like the Beethoven that I have already
played, I'd guess is Beethoven.  I'm not saying that a composer always
writes in the same vein, but after you have listened to Swan Lake or
Sleeping Beauty a million times and you hear a "new" Tchaikovsky, you
should be able to pick out elements that sound familiar.

Good luck in your quest!

	-- Anita --

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| Anita Hsiung       | "See how easy life can be?" -- Johnathan Raven     |
| ahsiung@bbn.com    |                                                    |
| BBN Canoga Park    | "Someday we'll look back on this moment...and      |
| California, USA    |  run smack into the car in front of us."  -- Ski   |
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From: jseboldt@pnet51.orb.mn.org (John Seboldt)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Authentic performance/pitch.
Date: 23 Aug 92 03:45:04 GMT
Organization: People-Net [pnet51], Minneapolis, MN.

>In article <1992Aug19.180904.23209@bas-a.bcc.ac.uk>, ucap22w@ucl.ac.uk (Martin S T Watts) writes:
>> 
>> After listening a lot, lately, to John Eliot Gardiner's recording of the B-minor
>> Mass and Trevor Pinnock's Messiah, it occurred to me to see whether anybody else
>> has any opinions on the use of "authentic" pitch in authentic performance. I use
>> quotes because I'm not so sure why all the ensembles have arrived at this
>> particular pitch, pretty much exactly a semitone below modern concert pitch,
>> for Baroque performance. Is it that somebody's extrapolated back to the 1740's
It's pretty clear from existing instruments from the period that this pitch
was used.  It is unlikely that it was standardized with the degree of
precision that 19th and 20th-century science would favor, however.  Even
between neighboring towns, some difference in pitch would be found.

And there were several "categories" of pitch for each different musical
milieu.  In Germany, "Kammerton" was what the early instrument folks use now
-- about a half-step below A440.  But for organs, "Chorton" was used, about a
half-step ABOVE A440!  The player would have to transpose when playing with
instruments for concerted music.  As a convenience, the player would sometimes
have on his organ a few stops in "Kammerton" -- this would be a luxury,
however!  

Those are a few basics.  I'll bet the New Grove Dictionary has plenty in one
place on this subject.

As for today, and questions of relevance... it's just the evolving practice
for early instrument players.  Instruments -- bowed strings and harpsichords
-- were designed for this pitch range and just sound better there.

: John Seboldt...Minneapolis, MN...As a ham, K0JD...as a human,       :
: right-brained yet right-handed...as a musician, techie yet creative :
:   UUCP: {crash, tcnet, petrus, quest}!orbit!pnet51!jseboldt         :
:   ARPA: crash!orbit!pnet51!jseboldt@nosc.mil                        :
:   INET: jseboldt@pnet51.orb.mn.org                                  :
From: diarmuid@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Diarmuid Pigott)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Manners, children please...
Date: 22 Aug 92 03:51:47 GMT
Organization: University of Western Australia

Mr Lustig, you are a rude man. 

You are skilled in cross-examination and issue-dodging, in name-calling,
and you do not respect the right of others not to like Cage.

You say you are a consultant - in what, invective?

The fact that I like his Sonatas for Samueal Marchbank's Fairy Piano is
neither here nor there. While he was poncing about a music studio trying
to get rid of the noise of his pulse rate, people like Havergal Brian
were in desparate straights because Cage-ism and anti-Cage-ism were
messing up the bandwidth.

I am frustrated because I can see the worth of Cage, but you cannot
understand why others can't see the worth. Why don't you engage brain
before punching deck? Just leave it alone, OK?
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster)
Subject: Re: Wedding music suggestions?
In-reply-to: mwj@beta.lanl.gov's message of Tue, 18 Aug 1992 19:44:48 GMT
Organization: pubs
	<1992Aug17.045435.20152@Princeton.EDU> <7131@lib.tmc.edu>
	<1992Aug18.194448.5300@newshost.lanl.gov>
Date: 19 Aug 92 11:10:05 CDT

Bill Johnson writes:

   ...I learned from this the lesson that a wedding isn't a concert and
   (IMHO) shouldn't be constructed in such a way as to imitate one.
   Sure, the Lohengrin and MSND music are trite beyond imagining, drawn
   from possibly inappropriate contexts, and less rewarding for
   performer and possibly listeners as well.  They are also, however,
   things that EVERY organist can play, and has probably played zillions
   of times.  Furthermore, they don't overwhelm the wedding ceremony
   itself.

   Make no mistake: I am not endorsing these pieces for use in the
   original poster's wedding, or any other.  I am merely attempting to
   point out that concert-quality music at a wedding is not necessarily
   a desirable thing, even if you happen to be able to find performers
   to bring it off.

I'd like to generalize slightly from Bill's point.  First of all, the
wedding itself should have a minimum of music: just pieces for entering
and exiting (which should be, as Bill says, standard works such as
Handel's Largo).  Save the main music for the gathering that follows.  I
see no reason to have trashy music at the reception, even though this is
the norm.  Get actual musicians-for-hire who play the kind of music you
want, and then let them play material that they normally play.  There
are plenty of good musicians around who don't charge exhorbitant rates.
The foregoing ideas are based on the positive example of my (second)
wedding, whose reception featured a classical guitarist and flutist.
The result was maybe less raucous than some of the guests would have
liked, but it established the tone that *I* wanted, and I got good
comments about it.

Chris Brewster
From: mgresham@dscatl.UUCP (Mark Gresham)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Wendy Carlos and Schoenberg
Summary: Is serialism dead?
Keywords: serialism, style, minimalist, posterity
Date: 12 Aug 92 14:18:12 GMT
Organization: Digital Systems Co., Atlanta GA

In <1992Aug9.152420.14654@cgh.cgh.com> paul@cgh.com (Paul Homchick) writes:
>In 2050, will it be the music of Schoenberg, Webern, Boulez, Shapey,
>and Xenakis that is played, or will it be pieces by Prokofiev,
>Britten, Messiaen, Reich and Adams?

Where is the need for "or"?  I hope they all will be played.


Cheers,

--Mark Gresham

dscatl!mgresham@gatech.edu

==========================
From: chrisr@hpcvra.cv.hp.com (Chris Robson)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 22:53:23 GMT
Subject: Re: JOHN CAGE
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Co., Corvallis, OR, USA
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical

|/ hpcvra:rec.music.classical / diarmuid@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Diarmuid Pigott) /  9:09 pm  Aug 18, 1992 /
|
|I would never compare Bach or Beethoven to a patent medicine tonic. Do
|----------

 I disagree. Bach's Mass in b is the best theraputic tonic I own.


			Chris. xxx.



________________________________________________________________________________
    "It's a sobering thought that by the time Mozart was my age he had been
                    dead for two years" - Tom Lehrer.
________________________________________________________________________________
Chris Robson, MS 5UR5			Phone:	(503) 750-2766
HP Corvallis Division			Fax:	(503) 752-7811
1000 NE Circle Bvd.
Corvallis, OR 97330			E-Mail:	chrisr@hpcvra.cv.hp.com
USA

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: diarmuid@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Diarmuid Pigott)
Subject: Re: JOHN CAGE
Organization: University of Western Australia
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 04:00:50 GMT

roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:
: As for Marx, he had precious little effect on music, and what Marxists
: were saying about music throughout most of Cage's career didn't
: generally matter too much, certainly not to him.  I'm not sure how he'd
: have stripped it away...
: 

I'm afraid the Soviet block is down to old Karl, no matter what the
apologists say. And social realism is Marxist music. 

: Wittgenstein, 

see Mr Smoliar's elegant summation in his post.

: Seriously, where do you fit Ayer in with Cage's music, or, conversely,
: where do you see it excluded?

I see it as embodying the reductionist ethos in some parts. Only some
pieces - I am not one of those who only permit past giants the luxury of
phases in working life.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Orff: a few facts
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 14:04:47 GMT

In article <l8k4j1INN98o@sol.usc.edu> 
asbed@sol.usc.edu (Asbed Bedrossian) writes:

>I've read somewhere 

    *sigh*

>that a lot of the controversy about Orff comes
>from the fact that he did not disavow the politics of his time in
>his country like many other contemporary artists and scientists did.

Many?  Aside from those who were actually persecuted or banned by the
regime, I wonder who those "many" were.

>He did not leave Germany for the US, or go into self-imposed exile;
>Therefore, for propaganda purposes, he was often accused of being a
>Nazi, or at least a Nazi-sympathizer. 

By whom, I wonder?  Does your "somewhere" source say?

>Orff was never a party member.

So what?  There were Party members in the Resistance, and enthusiastic
Nazis among non-Party-members.  This is not a useful piece of
information in and of itself.


You know, I gave this thread the name you see in the Subject: line for a
purpose--namely to avoid the "I read somewhere" and "Isn't it true
that," and so on.  Also to get more of a perspective on the conditions
under which Orff worked.  For almost 40 years after the war, composers
(like so many others) worked hard to keep their reputations intact and
to make their activity during the 3rd Reich seem as harmless and
acceptable as possible.  Only in the last decade has active
demythologization really begun, with the publication of works like Fred
Prieberg's, Pam Potter's, and the like.  

For the nth time: Carl Orff was *not* banned in the 3rd Reich, as he had
claimed happened with his Schulwerk.  Carmina Burana was *not* an
immediate success, and required a good deal of intervention before it
could be performed; it eventually became a major success.  Orff was *in
no way* a "court composer" of the Nazis--Werner Egk might fit that bill
slightly better.  Carmina Burana was *not* Hitler's "favorite piece" by
any means; in fact, I know of no performance that Hitler attended.
Hitler's favorite music was Bruckner, Wagner, and Puccini's _Madame
Butterfly_.  Honest.

Roger

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: rmw@cco.caltech.edu (Richard M. Wilson)
Subject: Re: A quick guide to different musical periods...
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 22:24:27 GMT


In Article 32943, steyn@cs.rochester.edu (Gavin Steyn) writes:
>  I remember reading somewhere (can someone fill in the blank here?) an 
>  easy way to tell the different styles of music apart... 
[rest deleted]

The reference is CVLTVRE Made Stvpid by Tom Weller.  The complete paragraph is

   The progress of musical structure through the development of counterpoint,
   chromaticism, etc., is a difficult subject.  You need only remember a few 
   principles.  Baroque music goes "Dah DAH dah dah DAH dah dah"; Rococo
   music goes "Tweedle-eedle ta ta TA."  The Classical period is characterized
   by a lot of "DUM dum diddle diddle DUM" stuff, while Romantic music goes
   "La-a-a LA-A-A-A la-a-a la-a-a-a-a-a-a-a." 

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad)
Subject: Re: Question of Cuts (was Re: Tristan & Isolde question)
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 15:14:08 GMT

In article <34206@cbmvax.commodore.com> givler@bermuda (Greg Givler) writes:

>I have a question, on my recording of Faust, on Angel, with Christoff
>Gedda, and de Los Angeles, the only cut is the Spinning Song, I think
>it starts the Third Act. Anyway, they include the Ballet music but cut
>the Spinning Scene. I realize that this scene is commonly cut, but
>if you are producing a 4 disk recording in the first place, why not 
>include it. Is there a reason other than since it is normally not done
>that de Los Angeles may not have known the music?

The idea of opera recordings being "as complete as possible" is one that
has taken root slowly but firmly -- to the point that anybody who issued
a new recording of TRAVIATA or RIGOLETTO now with the once-standard
abridgements would probably be severely chastised in print!  (As least
by the GRAMOPHONE boys...)

But up through the 1950s and to some extent the 1960s, an opera
recording was in the literal sense a "record" of how it was done in the
opera house.  People were preserving the performances they actually gave
and were famous for.  Thus, the text of Faust here is the standard
international one: ballet in, spinning song out.

Jon Alan Conrad

BTW, Greg, for some reason your response came through with your NAME as
the newsgroup to post to.  Dunno if this was some kind of net glitch or
what.  I hope I've managed to fix it on my followup.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: eb11@quads.uchicago.edu (Ernest Barreto)
Subject: Re: Bach and religious feelings
Reply-To: eb11@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 20:48:43 GMT

In article <5cjykyj@rpi.edu> mccomt@aix.rpi.edu (Todd M. McComb) writes:
>In article <173a2sINNk4l@agate.berkeley.edu> Vance Maverick writes:
>>In article <dcjybvj@rpi.edu>, mccomt@aix.rpi.edu (Todd M. McComb) writes:
>>|> Facts are boring.
>
>>Do you have a reference for this claim?
>


It was Ronald Reagan, yes?
From: mchenry@guvax.georgetown.edu
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: WANTED: Franz Liszt, Petrarch Sonnets.
Date: 15 Aug 92 14:10:09 -0400
Distribution: world,local
Organization: Georgetown University

In article <1992Aug13.165848@ece.arizona.edu>, sununu@ece.arizona.edu (Arun Vaidyanath) writes:
> 
> Hello everybody,
> 
> I am interested in obtaining any of the above works either in cd or tape form.
> Much appreciation if someone could inform me of their whereabouts.
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> Raghu

Liszt piano works I know of on CD:

Sonata in B Minor 
Sonetto 47 Del Petrarca 
Sonetto 104 del Petrarca 
Sonetto 123 del Petrarca 
Apres une Lecture du Dante - Fantasia Quasi Sonata 
Browning, John 
Delos 
D/CD 3022 

Etude No 2 in F minor, "La Leggierezza" 
Etude No 3 in D flat major, "Un Sospiro" 
Kissin, Yevgeniy 
Sony Classical 
SK 45931 

I highly recommend the Browning.

Bill McHenry                   |Those who do not hear the past works
mchenry@guvax (bitnet)         |are condemned to recompose them....
mchenry@guvax.georgetown.edu   |                 -me
From: feld@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Michael Feld)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: "Nunc Dimitis" & "Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy"
Date: 12 Aug 92 22:51:56 GMT
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada

Is the "Nunc Dimitis" sufficiently classical to excuse a plea for help
in finding a copy?  That is, the "Nunc Dimitis" that accompanied the
televised treatment of le Carre's "Tinker, Tailor, etc."?

I'd really welcome the sort of data my local record store requires
before it will order me a copy: publisher, disc number, Canadian
distributor, composer, singer.

Thanks for your indulgence.
-- 
Michael Feld                         | E-mail:  <feld@ccu.umanitoba.ca>
Dept. of Philosophy                  | FAX:     (204) 261-0021
University of Manitoba               | Voice:   (204) 474-9136
Winnipeg, MB, R3T 2M8, Canada
From: brad@buck.viewlogic.com (Bradford Kellogg)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Singers wanted
Date: 12 Aug 92 20:06:04 GMT
Organization: Viewlogic Systems, Inc.
Originator: brad@buck


In article <5511@transfer.stratus.com>, dpotts@sw.stratus.com (David Potts) writes:
|> 
[stuff deleted]

|> The upcoming season will feature a variety of great works by Mozart,
|> Bach, and Gilbert & Sullivan.  There will also be solo opportunities
|> throughout the season for those who are interested.
|> 
[stuff deleted]

It seems community choral groups often go for Bach, Mozart, and the like.
This is nothing to object to, but I wonder why some music seems to be
often avoided. For example, a capella works by Monteverdi or Desprez,
which I find particularly spectacular in live performance, are not
often done. 

Admittedly, the appeal of Rennaisance music is not as broad as Baroque, 
but surely the audience (and indeed prospective singers) would not stay 
away in droves if along with Bach's Magnificat was advertised O Magnum 
Mysterium. 

I would like to be mistaken. If anyone knows of community choral groups
doing Desprez et al, please say so. This may be academic outside of
eastern Massachusetts, but maybe someone else wants to know.

Ciao
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: chaban@fortsc.enet.dec.com (Ed Chaban)
Subject: Re: Wedding music suggestions?
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: 16 AUG 92 12:12:25 PST


In article <1992Aug16.144811.9375@Princeton.EDU>, roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes...

>I will never understand the use of the Lohengrin Wedding March.  As far
>as I can tell, this is only used in the US (people in Germany used to
>get a chuckle when seeing it in an American movie); and it's hopelessly
>insappropriate as soon as you know the source.
> 
>After all, a) it's a recessional, and b) he leaves her almost
>immediately.
> 
>Oh, and the Mendelssohn's a recessional, too.  
> 
>I guess there's just something about life imitating art imitating life
>that people can't resist.  (I've even heard the two pieces performed in a
>sort of medley, with harmonic fumfering in between, at a wedding in a
>Conservative Jewish synagogue.  On the organ.)
> 
> 
>Roger

We are free to choose music we like without regard for the opinions of
pretentious Princetonians.  Personal choices like these are not to be
criticized.  Even if a bride and groom were to  choose Spike Jones' "Cocktails
For Two" as wedding music,  guests' opinions of that choice are of no
consequence.
From: peter@celia.UUCP (Peter Farson)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: John Cage is Dead
Date: 20 Aug 92 09:22:25 GMT
Reply-To: celia!peter@usc.edu (Peter Farson)
Organization: Rhythm & Hues, Inc., Hollywood

In article <1992Aug13.135934.13383@dgbt.doc.ca> ted@dgbt.doc.ca (Ted Grusec) writes:
)In article <1992Aug13.074926.2690@nuscc.nus.sg> Smoliar@ISS.nus.sg (Stephen Smoliar) writes:
)>...........
)>Broadcasting;  but if they never bothered to air his music, I doubt that they
)>will give any air time to reporting his death.
)..................
)Perhaps such a program will come today. But the truth must be that
)most music listeners don't know his music nor his influence and so his
)passing is unnoticed.


   We should observe a moment of silence.  How about 4:33 of it?

-- 
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|           gugugugugug        o o                  tftftftftftftf      |
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Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: carnes@sparky.eecs.umich.edu (Richard Carnes)
Subject: Re: *** Op. 63 and Op. 64 (Beethoven) ***
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 18:16:28 GMT

In article <1992Aug11.225503.26591@riogrande.cs.tcu.edu> taha@sanantonio.cs.tcu.edu (Iraqi_Godfather) writes:
>Hello World !
>
>   Can you tell me the titles of Beethoven's Op.63 and Op.64 ?
>   I have checked THE GROOVES dictionary and could not
>   find an answer.

What's that, a dictionary of recordings?  Oh.

Beethoven's opp. 63 and 64 are someone else's arrangements of other
works by Beethoven -- they may even have been done without the
composer's knowledge.  Op. 63 is an arrangement for piano trio of the
String Quintet, op. 4, which itself is an arrangement of the very
early Octet for winds, op. 103.  Op. 64 is an arrangement for cello
and piano of the String Trio, op. 3.

Arrangements were an accepted way of making musical compositions more
accessible, and Beethoven had no objection so long as they were well
done and he received proper credit.  But he did object, in a letter to
Breitkopf, to "the unnatural mania, now so prevalent, for transferring
even pianoforte compositions to string instruments, instruments which
in all respects are so different from one another...."

Richard Carnes
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: rchrd@netcom.com (Richard Friedman)
Subject: Re: John Cage
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 92 21:22:34 GMT
Organization: Applied Parallel Rsrch (Berkeley)

jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin) writes:


>BBC Radio 3 cancelled a scheduled programme to run a commemorative - I
>think this was the the programme they made for when he was featured
>composer at Huddersfield.

At least listeners in the San Francisco area have KPFA.
Charles Amirkhanian did a 30 min obit piece Wednesday night.
He and I pre-empted the morning concert 9-11am thursday
with a two hour memorial featuring part of an interview we
did with Cage just this January when he was at Stanford.
Later we opened the phone lines for others to tell us
their own feelings and loss.  Gordon Mumma called in from
Santa Cruz  to talk about the years with the Cunningham
company.   There was also a phone conversation with
Lou Harrison.

KPFA has presented Cage's music for many many years.
My own first interview with John was in 1969.

He will be very sadly missed.  This has been a
hard year, with Messiaen, William Russell,
and many others.  
-- 
/\=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=/\
\/Richard Friedman (510)528-7055  |  rchrd@netcom.com    
/\Applied Parallel Rsch (Berkeley)|                          /\
\/=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=\/

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical