From: locklin@titan.ucc.umass.edu (Lupo The Butcher=)
Subject: Re: Evil is a Four Letter Word here
Organization: Campus Crusade for Cthulhu
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 20:06:26 GMT
X-Posted-From: titan.ucc.umass.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

>
>>2) Since Good Ol' Jesus has become the scapegoat for some wackos' definition
>>   of "christian thought/law", where is it mentioned that Jesus labelled some
>>   act or thought "evil"?  (serious, documented responses only, please) 
>
>>Response:
>
>>Unless this somehow applies to magick, please leave religion out of this
>>newsgroup.  I hope that others will shout at you if you continue this thread.
>>Jesus was a cool dood.  Some people say that books are written about him.
>>What he said is largely irrelevant in the context you are asking about,
>>especially among a group of people who don't agree as to his authority.
>
>If you are willing to consider the Jesus legend as an evolution in some form
>of magick art, then it is relevant.  Some quotes that are attributed to the
>man have something in common with Crowley's "Do what thou wilt...".  For

For starters. Crowley got "Do what thou wilt" and the word "thelema" DIRECTLY
from a fellow 400 years or so (I could be way off) before him named Rabbalais
in a book called "Gargantua and Pantagruel". It was meant in EXACTLY the same
context as Crowley seems to have meant it; libertinism libertarianism etc.
For a reference see "Do What Thou Wilt" a history of philosophies that used
this phrase. (The particulars of this book are in the alt.satanism FAQ)
There is even a school of thought that (Joseph) Kelley said this in Elizibethan
times, or rather dictated it from whatever "angelic deities" he was in touch
with. Interestingly, Crowley identifies himself with this charachter in a past
life. This message is supposedly what prompted Kelley to run off with Dee's 
wife...

>instance, someone said that commiting murder is against his Will since the
>repercussions might lead to his untimely death.  "Do unto others..." says
>basically the same thing.  This is simply a comparison between two quotes,
>not a display of religious belief.

Second; Crowley most certainly did not have a comparable message to the one
"Jesus" allegedly did; this comparison is patently absurd. Remember, the beast 
666? Remember in the book of the law, "A Man has the right to kill anyone who 
thwarts these rights" (Which included moving where he wills & fucking where he 
wills).
Now, you may be making this comparison for the sake of argument, but MY 
contention is that the two are such antithecal statements, that, to say the
least, it is a poor comparison.

>>Ladislas:
>
>>3) How does A. Crowley define "evil" (if he does) and how (if he defines the
>>   concept) does it relate to his "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of
>>   the law" (please correct the phrase)?
>
>>Response:
>
>>I doubt he does.  If you wish to have this question seriously addressed
>>then start another thread and begin discussing 'black magick' or
>>'Crowley's ideas regarding sin'.
>
>I should have specified "... in his teachings".  Your doubt that he does
>answers the question though.  I'll not start a thread on 'black magick' since
>the subject was discussed a while ago.  As to Crowley's ideas regarding sin,
>that sounds interesting.  Reading his works should give me a pretty good
>notion of that.

Yes, he was very specific on this (for a change). See the above comments.

>>                                   At least that would frame it in a
>>way which is approachable by mages.  As it is you've lumped Crowley
>>in here with religion and all you'll get are the quasi-Satanists and
>>Crowleyites that don't know up from down.

You asked for it...

>>If you really think that a discussion of 'evil' WITHOUT reference to
>>magick is somehow relevant to alt.magick topics, I'm willing to hear
>>why and how.  I think you'd better make it good.  You're likely to
>>catch more heat from this thread than arises from my fingers and
>>toes and I'll be happy to either join in or simply bypass the whole
>>affair.  Toodles...
>
>I'm not looking for a discussion, though everyone is free to discuss the
>subject.  The reference is not to magick but to mages, or more to the point,
>to how mages view the concept.  To some, the concept might be an absolute,
>while others view it as relative to a stand point.  Some might say that the
>concept is ridiculous.

Cast one vote for ridiculous.

-Scott