HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: reaper@wixer.cactus.org (Keath Milligan)
Subject: Re: speed traps on 2222
Organization: Real/Time Communications
Distribution: austin
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 14:26:07 GMT

In article <21838@rpp386.lonestar.org> jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II) writes:
>In article <PETONIC.92Nov6110525@daisy.hal.com> petonic@hal.com (Michael A. Petonic) writes:
>>You're assuming, of course, *perfect* conditions.  There's a first
>>time on 2222 for everyone. 
>
>This is only because people don't follow the first rule of driving -
>never drive beyond your own abilities.  If there is a curve in the
>road and you can't see what's on the other side, slow down.
>
>>You're also assuming restraint on the part of the driver.  For whatever
>>macho reasons, people don't drive within their abilities and *other*
>>people's abilities.  Especially in Texas, where the ego reigns.
>
>Ah, the truth comes out.
>
>Well, some of us are "restrained" drivers.
>

When i first moved to Autin (in the lake area), I drove 2222 everyday
(in a Pinto!!!) and never thought anything of it.. It was sometime later
that I learned how infamous this road was.

>>I'm entirely for making more stringent tests, and stiffer penalties for
>>things like unsafe passing, lack of signals, tailgaiting (failure to 
>>maintain safe distance), blowing off stop signals and signs, ...  In short,
>>things that tend to result in accidents.
>
>YES!
>

Agreed, but did you know the DPS wouhld like to eliminate behind the
wheel testing saying that it costs too much and "doesn't make much
difference"?

>>I take 2222 pretty fast, but then I've got a SAAB turbo with excellent
>>suspension, and I'm fairly coordinated and have good reactions.  I'm
>>26, now...  by the time I'm 35, my reactions will have slowed.  When
>>I'm 55, if I tried to push the envelope out as far as I do now, I'd
>>be a dead man.   Hopefully, my gain in prudence will counteract my
>>loss in reactions.
>

Sounds like the same line of twisted, overconfident logic that gets a lot
of people killed -- "I'm young and I have a hot car therefore I can
drive faster than everyone else".

-- 
oooooo ooo o o  o            Keath Milligan            o  o  ooooo oooo oooooo
oooo oo ooo  o   o   Prometheus Light and Sound, Inc.   o   o  o ooooooooooooo
oooooooo o oo  o         Real/Time Communications        o    o o ooo oooooooo
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From: bboerner@novell.com (Brendan B. Boerner)
Newsgroups: austin.talk
Subject: Re: If you dump Bush, dump Congress too, (at least.)
Date: 11 Nov 92 14:37:56 GMT
Organization: Novell, Inc. --Austin

In article <1992Nov10.212729.3606@wixer.cactus.org> reaper@wixer.cactus.org (Keath Milligan) writes:
>In article <1992Nov9.140524.17713@novell.com> bboerner@novell.com (Brendan B. Boerner) writes:
>>Ummm, I was referring to ALL of Texas, not just Austin.  I went to
>>Dallas to see my brother and sister-in-law this weekend and traffic
>>pretty much was 70-75MPH the whole way on I-35 which is fairly
>>straight.  Or I-35 to S.A. and then I-37 down to C.C. - again, 70-75MPH
>>doesn't seem unreasonable.  What seperate these roads from those in
>>Illinois?  Or for that matter MoPac from Illinois?
>>
>
>As you said, people ALREADY ARE travelling 70 - 75 mph when the speed
>limit is 65mph.  If the limit were raised to 75, people would be
>travelling at 80 - 85mph -- I simply do not trust the competence of the
>typical driver I share the road with to be able to handle those kinds of
>speeds.

Well, maybe, maybe not.  A friend of mine was telling me that there's
an idea that on any given road, the drivers will "find" the "right"
speed.  Apparently this is why sometimes you'll see two cops by the
road or street clocking cars but NOT pulling them over - there
gathering stats on what a certain %age of cars are driving to see if
the speed limit on that section of road should be changed.  Note that
there are other factors to consider such as is it near a hospital or
school...

My point is that if we raised the speed limit to 70 on the interstates,
does this really imply that people will automatically speed up to 80 or
does it just mean that people will travel as they always did but not
have to worry about a ticket.  Since I wasn't very aware of the world
back when the speed limit was 70, I'll leave this up to others who had
experience driving then.


>And MoPac is just right at 55.  There are too many entrance/exit ramps
>and too much commuter traffic on MoPac to even consider a higher limit.

It depends on the time of day.  Usually in the late evenings/night
65 seems fairly common.

Why not set the speed limit at whatever is safe for you and the car?
Isn't this how it is done on the Autobahn?

Brendan
-- 
Brendan B. Boerner		Phone: 512/346-8380
Internet: bboerner@novell.com	MHS: bboerner@novell
Please use ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ if replying by mail exterior to Novell.
From: shoroff@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Srihari Shoroff)
Newsgroups: austin.talk
Subject: Re: If you dump Bush, dump Congress too, (at least.)
Date: 5 Nov 92 19:40:42 GMT
Organization: Univ of Texas at Austin

In article <1992Nov3.151021.17701@awdprime.austin.ibm.com> bade@wombat.austin.ibm.com writes:
>
>> >	* Right against taxation without representation, or "How I
>> >
>> > --Alan Weiss---
>> 
>> Hmm, that reminds me. Can someone explain why I get to pay taxes but dont get
>> a chance to vote George Bush out of office? (I am not a US citizen <-- that's
>> a fact, not an explanation :-) )
>> --- Srinivas Nedunuri---
>In fact that is indeed the explanation.  You see, you make money in this
>country
>then you pay taxes on the money you earn.  If I were living in Germany I'd be
>paying taxes to the German government.  There is nothing that says one must
>be a citizen to be taxed.   However the right to vote (and it is a right not
>a privledge) is granted only to Citizens of the US in the Constitution.  You 
>want to vote then become a citizen, then you can have a say about how your
>tax dollars are spent :-), otherwise just pay the money to the GOVT and quit
>bitching.

Methinks you(bade@ibm is all we know, you dont seem to like signing your posts!)
are the one who's flying off tangential to what Srinivas was trying to ask.
All he said was that having to pay taxes without having a right to vote seems
to violate the principle that Alan mentioned "No taxation without representation"
And whichever way you look at it, your answer is neither relevant nor 
intellectually satisfying. Srinivas never even said he thinks he shouldnt
be made to pay taxes. Just dont get paranoid that everyone else is becoming
a "fat cat" while you bear the trillion dollar burden. Just stick to the 
point. 

Srihari
-- 
|A very creative .sig has been ordered.                                      |
|			Will take 4 to 6 weeks for delivery.                 |
|----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|Wanna get in touch?                                                         | 
|If you're    -serious: 512 371 7409   -miserly: shoroff@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu  |
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Newsgroups: austin.talk
From: srin@cs.utexas.edu (Srinivas Nedunuri)
Newsgroups: austin.talk
Subject: Re: If you dump Bush, dump Congress too, (at least.)
Date: 5 Nov 1992 18:56:57 -0600
Organization: U Texas Dept of Computer Sciences, Austin TX
NNTP-Posting-Host: earth.cs.utexas.edu

In article <1992Nov3.151021.17701@awdprime.austin.ibm.com> bade@wombat.austin.ibm.com writes:
	
-In article <lf0usvINNl3b@earth.cs.utexas.edu>, srin@cs.utexas.edu
-(Srinivas Nedunuri) writes:
--- * Right against taxation without representation, or "How I
		 
-- Hmm, that reminds me. Can someone explain why I get to pay taxes but dont get
-- a chance to vote George Bush out of office? (I am not a US citizen <-- that's
-- a fact, not an explanation :-) )

-In fact that is indeed the explanation.  You see, you make money in this
-country
-then you pay taxes on the money you earn.  If I were living in Germany I'd be
-paying taxes to the German government.  There is nothing that says one must
-be a citizen to be taxed.   However the right to vote (and it is a right not
-a privledge) is granted only to Citizens of the US in the Constitution.  You 
-want to vote then become a citizen, then you can have a say about how your
-tax dollars are spent :-), otherwise just pay the money to the GOVT and quit
-bitching.

But no! You dont pay taxes just for living in Germany, or any other country
for that matter. Case in point: as a non-working student I dont pay any 
taxes. Now I presume that taxes go towards paying for certain benefits that 
come back to you as member of the public. But by working I do not become 
eligible for any more benefits than when I was a non-working student! 
So where does my tax money go? Should I not get a say as to where it does go,
otherwise I am clearly being taxed simply for working.

--srin
Newsgroups: austin.talk
From: reaper@wixer.cactus.org (Keath Milligan)
Subject: Re: If you dump Bush, dump Congress too, (at least.)
Organization: Real/Time Communications
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 21:27:29 GMT

In article <1992Nov9.140524.17713@novell.com> bboerner@novell.com (Brendan B. Boerner) writes:
>In article <1992Nov7.035624.9638@wixer.cactus.org> rhodesia@wixer.cactus.org (Felix S. Gallo) writes:
>>In article <1992Nov6.141116.4669@novell.com> bboerner@novell.com (Brendan B. Boerner) writes:
>>>So a 55MPH speed limit, which I hear from friends who lived their makes
>>>sense for the East coast, is also suited for Texas?  Sure they finally
>>
>>Yeah, it is.  I lived up in Illinois for a while, and setting the de
>>facto speed limit at around 70 was in my opinion a good idea, even
>>on the extremely flat and extremely straight highways up there.  Down
>>here in the Austin hills and curves, I'm surprised that people are
>>even thinking of going faster.  Maybe it's one of those "I'm a superior
>>driver and should be allowed to show off" things that over 70% of the
>>American drivers share, but let's deal with reality for a moment.  One
>>bad driver can spoil five really good drivers' whole life.
>
>Ummm, I was referring to ALL of Texas, not just Austin.  I went to
>Dallas to see my brother and sister-in-law this weekend and traffic
>pretty much was 70-75MPH the whole way on I-35 which is fairly
>straight.  Or I-35 to S.A. and then I-37 down to C.C. - again, 70-75MPH
>doesn't seem unreasonable.  What seperate these roads from those in
>Illinois?  Or for that matter MoPac from Illinois?
>

As you said, people ALREADY ARE travelling 70 - 75 mph when the speed
limit is 65mph.  If the limit were raised to 75, people would be
travelling at 80 - 85mph -- I simply do not trust the competence of the
typical driver I share the road with to be able to handle those kinds of
speeds.

And MoPac is just right at 55.  There are too many entrance/exit ramps
and too much commuter traffic on MoPac to even consider a higher limit.

What's the hurry?  Adding 10 mph to your average speed isn't going to
yield any significant time-savings on a typical trip.


-- 
oooooo ooo o o  o            Keath Milligan            o  o  ooooo oooo oooooo
oooo oo ooo  o   o   Prometheus Light and Sound, Inc.   o   o  o ooooooooooooo
oooooooo o oo  o         Real/Time Communications        o    o o ooo oooooooo
oooooo oooo ooo  o  internet: reaper@wixer.cactus.org  o   o  o ooo oo ooooooo
Newsgroups: austin.talk
From: petonic@hal.com (Michael A. Petonic)
Subject: Re: speed traps on 2222
Reply-To: petonic@hal.com (Michael A. Petonic)
Organization: Henry's Laughing Gas Co., Inc.
	<PETONIC.92Nov4171540@daisy.hal.com> <4137@unisql.UUCP>
Distribution: austin
Date: 06 Nov 92 03:24:56 GMT

In article <4137@unisql.UUCP> ray@unisql.UUCP (Ray Shea) writes:
>In article <PETONIC.92Nov4171540@daisy.hal.com> petonic@hal.com (Michael A. Petonic) writes:
>>In article <2775@devnull.mpd.tandem.com> joe@woody.mpd.tandem.com (Joe Senner) writes:
>>>there's no such thing as a "dangerous section of road". there is such
>>>a thing as someone driving beyond their abilities....
>>
>>If you have a blind intersection like the City Park road used to be
>>(without a stop), it's dangerous.
>
>If you don't treat it as a blind intersection, you're driving beyond your
>abilities (probably anyone's abilities).

Indeed.  Look at that intersection, about 90 percent of the drivers at
that intersection were driving beyond their abilities....

>>Hell, drivers around here lack the muscle coordination and cohesive
>>thought necessary to use turn signals, how do you expect them to
>>manage a tight, hairpin turn at 50 MPH???
>
>If you try to go around a tight hairpin turn at 50 MPH, you're driving
>well beyond your abilities.  It's not the turn that is dangerous, it's
>the idiot taking it too fast that's dangerous.
>
>You are just proving Joe's point, whether you know it or not.

No, just playing devils advocate and expressing a different point of
view.  I think you and I both (and John Haugh) actually all agree on
the same things, but we're discussing semantics here.

To be absolutely precise, you both are quite correct.  But I think
that the absolute precise definition is splitting hairs.  

Consider... When the Ford Pinto was struck from behind in a collision,
it tended to explode.  Is the Ford Pinto dangerous or the driver (or
the other driver) dangerous for having been involved in the accident
in the first place?

ObJoke: My worst L.A. freeway nightmare...  Stuck behind an Pinto in
gridlock graffic and in front of an Audi.

-pet-
--
Michael A. Petonic	       petonic@hal.com		       +1-512-794-2855
        HaL Computer Systems International, Ltd. -- A Bermuda Corporation
                     Director of Dangerous Activities  [ACK to GeoffK@ism780c]
				 Austin, Texas
                          "No balls, no blue chip."
From: joe@rider.cactus.org (Joe Senner)
Newsgroups: austin.talk
Subject: Re: speed traps on 2222
Date: 5 Nov 92 18:32:44 GMT
Reply-To: joe@rider.cactus.org
Distribution: austin
Organization: NOT

petonic@hal.com
]joe@woody.mpd.tandem.com (Joe Senner) writes:
]>there's no such thing as a "dangerous section of road". there is such
]>a thing as someone driving beyond their abilities.
]If a road turns left and the camber goes right, it's dangerous.

hooey. when the person that happens to be driving on it does so in a
manner that exceeds the ability of the vehicle or the person himself,
he has become a danger to himself and others.

inanimate objects like roads, three wheelers, the space shuttle, etc,
are only dangerous when improperly used.

]If you have a blind intersection like the City Park road used to be
](without a stop), it's dangerous.

only when used improperly. if you're incapable of correctly navigating 
that section of the road, then it's your fault. you should have chosen 
a route that you are capable of.

]Joe, you aren't going to change any driver's behaviours, so the best
]that we can do is to set some reasonable limits that people may obey
]or disregard at their own (pocketbook's) discretion.

this is a really pessamistic attitude. I believe that we CAN change
drivers attitudes. maybe we can't change those established drivers
but we can sure work on the new ones. we can adapt to the changing
needs of our society or we can sit by and watch it happen and cry
when it doesn't work. we can put decent education systems in place,
we can test that driving abilities are to a certain level of competance.
instead we take your attitude, why bother, just run around trying to
patch up the leaks in the system.

ever hear that saying that it costs a hell of a lot more to keep someone
in prison than it does to educate them and make them a productive member
of society? the same principle applies to a lot of things, including
driving on public roads.

]Hell, drivers around here lack the muscle coordination and cohesive
]thought necessary to use turn signals, 

the only reason they don't is because they LEARNED not to.

]how do you expect them to
]manage a tight, hairpin turn at 50 MPH???

it shouldn't be a problem with proper training.

-- 
Joe Senner -- joe@Rider.Cactus.Org                                 Austin, TX
Newsgroups: austin.talk
From: reaper@wixer.cactus.org (Keath Milligan)
Subject: Re: speed traps on 2222
Organization: Real/Time Communications
Distribution: austin
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 92 16:20:47 GMT

In article <1992Nov4.050957.22602@wixer.cactus.org> purp@wixer.cactus.org (Jim Meyer) writes:
>In article <2775@devnull.mpd.tandem.com> joe@mpd.tandem.com writes:
>
>>there's no such thing as a "dangerous section of road". there is such
>>a thing as someone driving beyond their abilities [...] the
>>construction that's straightening out 2222 and other roads is the most
>>assinine thing I've ever seen in my entire life. rather than educate and
>>train drivers, we [try] to treat the symptoms of ignorance and
>>stupidity, at the expense of everyone else.
>
>Yay! I agree. Some people just shouldn't be on the road. While they
>stress that driving is a privilege, not a right, it seems they make
>every effort to see that you get that "privilege" whether you can handle
>it or not.
>
>--Jim, "I'm an excellent driver."
>-- 

It gets worse... as if the roads weren't filled with enough incompetent
driver already, an article in the Statesman a few months back quoted a
DPS official as saying it was their desire to eliminate major parts of
the current driving test in an effort to reduce costs.  It's been quite
a hwile since I read the article, so I could have my facts screwed up,
but I believe they waznted to do away with behind-the-wheel testing,
contending that it "didn't make much difference".

If anything, the tests should be made MUCH more stringent.  In
conjunction, I'd like to see a law that automatically revokes anyone's
license that receives more than 3 tickets in a two-year period.  And I
mean REVOKED, taken away, gone, bye-bye -- none of these special
exceptions and caving into sob-stories.  The way we coddle four-wheeled
killers in this country is unbelievable.
-- 
oooooo ooo o o  o            Keath Milligan            o  o  ooooo oooo oooooo
oooo oo ooo  o   o   Prometheus Light and Sound, Inc.   o   o  o ooooooooooooo
oooooooo o oo  o         Real/Time Communications        o    o o ooo oooooooo
oooooo oooo ooo  o  internet: reaper@wixer.cactus.org  o   o  o ooo oo ooooooo
From: jfh@rpp386.lonestar.org (John F. Haugh II)
Newsgroups: austin.talk
Subject: Re: speed traps on 2222
Date: 5 Nov 92 05:26:24 GMT
Reply-To: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II)
Distribution: austin
Organization: Los Tejanos SCUBA Club and Beer Joint, Austin, Tejas

In article <PETONIC.92Nov4171540@daisy.hal.com> petonic@hal.com (Michael A. Petonic) writes:
>I disagree with your first point (but agree with your last point, at
>least as it relates to Texas standards).
>
>If a road turns left and the camber goes right, it's dangerous.

I think you are missing Joe's point.  There is a stretch of road
on the way to work that does exactly what you describe - left turn
with incorrect camber.  Sure enough, you have to slow down to about
35MPH to take it in a car, much less on a bike.  But that doesn't
make it dangerous - the properly cambered ramps at the MoPac/183
interchange are probably unsafe much over 120MPH.  So are the ramps
safe or dangerous?

The answer is neither - the is simply a point beyond which a
randomly selected driver is capable of taking those two turns.

>If you have a blind intersection like the City Park road used to be
>(without a stop), it's dangerous.

Then voluntarily stop.  I've been driving for 16 years with no at
fault accidents.  I gladly stop at blind intersections.  Again, the
safety of a situation is based on the skills of the driver - no
driver should ever go through an intersection if they don't fully
understand the cars they are moving relative to.

>Joe, you aren't going to change any driver's behaviours, so the best
>that we can do is to set some reasonable limits that people may obey
>or disregard at their own (pocketbook's) discretion.

The objection I have to this is that we are setting standards toward
the mediocre extreme.  There is nothing special about driving in snow
that Austin residents shouldn't be able to manage it.  Same for rain.

If people in Minnesota and Louisiana can drive when the weather
changes, why can't people in Austin?

>Hell, drivers around here lack the muscle coordination and cohesive
>thought necessary to use turn signals, how do you expect them to
>manage a tight, hairpin turn at 50 MPH???

Proper tire inflation and picking the right line ;-)
-- 
John F. Haugh II                  [  TSAKC  ] !'s: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh
Ma Bell: (512) 251-2151           [ DoF #17 ]        @'s: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org
From: reaper@wixer.cactus.org (Keath Milligan)
Subject: Re: If you dump Bush, dump Congress too, (at least.)
Organization: Real/Time Communications
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 21:17:41 GMT

In article <1992Nov6.141116.4669@novell.com> bboerner@novell.com (Brendan B. Boerner) writes:
>In article <1992Nov5.045923.17670@wixer.cactus.org> rhodesia@wixer.cactus.org (Felix S. Gallo) writes:
>>jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II) writes:
>>>Sure.  But that doesn't give it the "right" to arbitrarily set speed
>>>limits either.
>>
>>You're unfortunately confused.  The government does not arbitrarily set
>>speed limits (or anything else).  It sets limits based on studies of
>>safety factors and other relevant subjects.  These limits are in the
>>best interests of its constituency.
>
>So a 55MPH speed limit, which I hear from friends who lived their makes
>sense for the East coast, is also suited for Texas?  Sure they finally
>allowed 65MPH in some areas, but that's sort of like being tossed a
>bone.  Actually, if I understand it correctly, they really don't set
>the speed limit, they suggest that if the states want their tax dollars
>back in highway funds, then they (the states) should set their speed
>limits to what Congress wants.  Bastards.
>

Yeah, that was the tactic... they've threatened using it again for DWI
cases, but most states are enacting tougher DWI legislation on their
own.  I think that 55mph is a bit too prudish for some interstates, but
65 seems just about right me.  A limit of 65 typically means people are
travelling at speeds up to 75mph and aren't being pulled over.  I think
that's plenty fast enough.


-- 
oooooo ooo o o  o            Keath Milligan            o  o  ooooo oooo oooooo
oooo oo ooo  o   o   Prometheus Light and Sound, Inc.   o   o  o ooooooooooooo
oooooooo o oo  o         Real/Time Communications        o    o o ooo oooooooo
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