Newsgroups: soc.culture.hongkong
From: tlai@csri.toronto.edu (Tony Fu-Keung Lai)
Subject: Re: HK political groups
Organization: CSRI, University of Toronto
Date: 16 Oct 92 18:07:28 GMT

In article <1992Oct15.232630.9462@pegasus.com> wing@pegasus.com (Wing Ng) writes:
>In <1992Oct14.153611.8299@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu> tlai@csri.toronto.edu
>(Tony Fu-Keung Lai) writes:
>> Subject: HK political groups
>>
>> To me,  I support "Cooperative" (Kai Luen). I think that they are
>> more realistic. Hong Kong United Democrats almost does everything
>> to  have a greater democracy.  But I doubt that Hong Kong  people
>> easily  adjust  to this sudden democratic jump.
> 
>We already HAD the sudden democratic jump, we had the direct Legco
>election in Sept. 1991, and 16 out of the 18 are won by democrats.
> 
>> Also,  it  is  a
>> matter  whether Hong Kong people really care about all  political
>> stuff  (for  the  time  being).
> 
>Typically the electorate does not care about the political process
>when they are well off.  Which is sign that HK local government is
>being run OK.
> 
>> I am  not  saying  that  greater
>> democracy   is  not good.  It is just that it should not  go  too
>> fast. Moreover, this big democratic jump may have adverse effects
>> (e.g.  introducing  political instability) which will do  nothing
>> but harm to the Hong Kong's prosperity.
> 
>HK is already as rich as Japan per capita, richer if you apply the
>exchange rate warp correction factor.  If HK is not ready for
>democracy, who is?
> 
>Remember it was the SUPPRESSION of democracy in '89 in the Motherland
>that resulted in a big slump in HK property and stock markets.
> 
>> I agree that greater democracy avoids much of China's disturbance
>> to HK.
> 
>I actually do not think that democracy in HK ITSELF can contain the
>interference from a still dictatorial Chinese Mainland.  That's why
>true democrats of HK must also support democracy in China.
> 
>And it is precisely because the United Democrats of HK also support
>democracy in China that made the PRC authorities hate UDHK so much.
> 
>> Indeed, Chris Patten's recent report is a little bit "over".
> 
>I completely disagree.  I have a lot of admiration for Patten, esp.
>in that by making only "minor changes" within the constraints of the
>Basic Law, he has deftly turned all Legco seats into popularly elected
>ones, which by the way is REQUIRED by the Joint Declaration.
>
>Some pro-PRC people in HK accused Patten of violating the Joint
>Declaration and / or Basic Law.  Patten has been saying, "you say
>I violated JD /  BL, they are documents in black and white, WHERE
>did I violate them."  Of course he never did.
> 
>Then they said he violated the "spirit" of JD.  What nonsense, "spirit"
>of an international treaty must be interpreted by BOTH parties of
>the agreement.  If U.K. side has a different interpretation, there
>can no longer be a "spirit".
> 
> 
>In  <1bi4akINN58v@agate.berkeley.edu> vchan@haas.berkeley.edu
>(Vincent Chan) writes:
>>
>> In    article     <1992Oct14.153611.8299@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu>
>> tlai@csri.toronto.edu (Tony Fu-Keung Lai) writes:
>> >
>IQ%Y+	PKai Luen). I think that they
>> >are more realistic. Hong Kong United Democrats almost does everything  
>> >to have a greater democracy. But I doubt that Hong Kong people
>> >easily adjust to this sudden democratic jump. Also, it is a
>>   
>>      Kai Luen's goal is more moderate, compared with UD. But many
>>      people  have bad impression that their members are too  pro-
>>      British      and their memberships in LEGCO are not voted by
>>      people.  If  they      can participate in the election  next
>>      time  and win some seats,       their image can be  improved
>>      and they will be more persuasive.
> 
>They used to be pro-British and got appointed into their positions.
>Then they decided to jump ship and lean towards the PRC side.
>Common people decided they are too unreliable, switching sides too
>fast.  British side decided to teach them a lesson, and de-appointed
>them all from EXCO.  Patten could have de-appointed them from Legco
>too if he wanted, and Kai Luen would completely collapse, but that
>would be going too far.
> 
>> >matter whether Hong Kong people really care about all political
>> >stuff (for the time being). I am not saying that greater democracy
>> >is not good. It is just that it should not go too fast.
>> >Moreover, this big democratic jump may have adverse effects (e.g.
>> >introducing political instability) which will do nothing but harm
>> >to the Hong Kong's prosperity.
>>
>>      YES  !  There  is tradeoff between prosperity and  democracy
>>      in Hongkong.
> 
>Please do not parrot the PRC spokespersons, why is there a tradeoff?
>Look at our neighbor Taiwan:  it has become more and more democratic
>since 1986 or so, and it is also getting more and more prosperous.
> 
>>      So,  my  questions are 1) Do Hong Kong really  need  greater
>>      democracy  at  this time ?  2) Are the people in  HK  mature
>>      enough to accept full democracy ?
> 
>In Taiwan, all legislators are elected, all local government heads
>are elected, and they are talking about direct election for the
>President.  Are HK people less mature than Taiwan people?  Don't
>we deserve at least the same?
> 
>Wing
>


Newsgroups: soc.culture.hongkong