HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: laub@Software.Mitel.COM (Boniface Lau)
Newsgroups: alt.self-improve
Subject: Re: goal setting as a way of life
Date: 17 Aug 92 04:35:34 GMT
Organization: Mitel. Kanata (Ontario). Canada.
In-reply-to: hendricks@cdrom.enet.dec.com's message of 15 Aug 92 01:24:47 GMT

>>>>> On 15 Aug 92 01:24:47 GMT, hendricks@cdrom.enet.dec.com said:

hendricks> I've always been very goal-oriented.  

Goal orientation is very important on achieving result. At the same
time, I also remember the following expressions:

    "We can savor our days only if we shrug off the obligation to 
     have a destiny" -- from "The Art of Time"

    "Enjoyment of the process is the secret that erases the myths 
     of the Great Reward and Saving Time" -- from "The Tao of Pooh"
--
Boniface Lau    (613) 592-2122 ext. 3042    Boniface_Lau@Mitel.COM
Mitel Corp.  				    
350 Legget Drive, Kanata
Ontario, Canada, K2K 1X3
Newsgroups: alt.self-improve
From: stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com (Todd I. Stark)
Subject: Re: Unity (Covey _7_Habits_ model)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Distribution: usa
Date: 14 AUG 92 13:12:48    


>m23364@mwunix (James Meritt) writes...
> 
>>Could you possibly post one or two liner topic headings (whatever) that
>>could be used to identify the 7 parts of this model?
> 
  I copied down the model headings, but I seem to have lost it, so I'll
  try it from memory.  Apologies for errors.  Hopefully this at least
  provides the 'flavor' of Covey's model.  I don't feel I can do it
  justice in a short post, it seems like just spewing clichs when
  I write this stuff down, but Covey really puts it together in 
  a meaningful way in his book, I think.

 I.  Dependence
	(Private Victory)
		1.  Be Proactive
		2.  Start with the end in mind
		3.  Do first things first

 II. Independence
	(Public victory)

		4.  Think 'Win/Win'
		5.  Seek first to understand, then be understood
		6.  Synergize

		7.  Sharpen the saw (renewal)

 III.Interdependence


						kind regards,

						todd
Newsgroups: alt.self-improve
From: stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com (Todd I. Stark)
Subject: Re: NLP and Michael Brooks
Summary: Specialized introductory material on 'mirroring' and 'matching'
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: 18 AUG 92 09:40:04    


In article llarsen%peruvian.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Loren Larsen) writes...
>In article fragante@unixg.ubc.ca (Gv Fragante) writes:
>>With the on-going discussion on NLP and it's many experts, anyone ever come
>>across a guy named Michael Brooks ? I just happened to notice his book called
>>"Instant Rapport". What are your impressions about this guy and/or his book ?
>>
>The book has good material, but it's not a very good book.  The reason the
>material is good is because it works, but the depth of the material in
>"Instant Rapport" is fairly shallow in my opinion.  You would be better off
>reading one of Robbins books or a book by Bandler, Grinder, or Andreas.  
> 
>Loren

I read Brooks _Instant Rapport_ a while ago, and from what I remember, Loren's 
comments are right on target.  Brooks expounds in great detail on a very small
subset of the NLP-derived 'matching' or 'mirroring' concepts (those terms
are used differently in different sources, though, so be careful).  

I'd say that if you had a lot of trouble understanding what mirroring and 
matching were about, or had concerns that such ideas were overly manipulative, 
or that they would be the equivalent of mocking someone, and you
wanted to hear someone's personal experiences with being introduced to their 
use, Brooks gives you that in spades.  It's nothing like a general 
introduction to NLP concepts, though, it's a very specialized book, even though
it is at an introductory level, so if you're looking for a general overview, 
there are a lot of better sources.

If I remember correctly, Brooks did do a pretty fair job of getting across the 
subtlety of what happens in mirroring exercises, and the complexity of
human communication, which is a big part of learning what they are trying
to get across in NLP, I think.

						kind regards,

						todd
From: yost@adobe.com (David Yost)
Newsgroups: alt.self-improve
Subject: Who is Dick Stuphen?
Date: 22 Aug 92 20:04:54 GMT
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated

A while back, someone posted an article called

          THE BATTLE FOR YOUR MIND
              by Dick Sutphen
    Persuasion & Brainwashing Techniques
       Being Used On The Public Today

which was a transcription of an autio tape.
Does anyone know where I can get this tape, or
who Dic Sutphen is and how I might contact him?

Thanks.

 --dave yost
From: fragante@unixg.ubc.ca (Gv Fragante)
Newsgroups: alt.self-improve
Subject: NLP and Michael Brooks
Date: 17 Aug 92 20:15:17 GMT
Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada

With the on-going discussion on NLP and it's many experts, anyone ever come
across a guy named Michael Brooks ? I just happened to notice his book called
"Instant Rapport". What are your impressions about this guy and/or his book ?

From a quick skim through the book, it looks like it has very similar contents
to Robbins first book - Unlimited Power. Topics such as auditory/visual/kines-
thetic language, eye-accessing cues, anchoring, etc. are all mentioned.
From: tyadav@athena.mit.edu (Tapesh Yadav)
Newsgroups: alt.self-improve
Subject: Re: goal setting as a way of life
Date: 16 Aug 92 20:21:30 GMT
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology

=====================
 hendricks@cdrom.enet.dec.com writes:
>
>I've always been very goal-oriented. 
>----x----------
>I love to work late if I can explore interesting side areas that there
>wasn't time to check out during the day.  I read reference books a lot.
>I know what I like, I know what's satisfying to me, and I feel much
>happier working towards goals.  I have a hard time setting goals in 
>relationships with people because success takes a combined effort on the
>parts of both people, so I tend towards activities where I can set and
>reach my own goals.  I have a hard time just sitting around and 'relaxing'
>at lunch with people because I'm always antsy to be *learning* something
>or *doing* something, for example.
>
>Sometimes it's hard to find other people who understand these patterns 
>- are there other people in this newsgroup who can relate to what 
>I'm describing?
>
>Holly

 The goals, I set in any relationship is to know the other person.

 To use your example, ice skating and playing music can be the most
 "learning" activity. But then, I think you would agree, skating and playing
 music is also the most relaxing activity. Learning needn't be a tension.
 Learning can be relaxing. And ideally is.

 Relationship can also be a learning experience. One learns about someone's
 fundamental nature, human nature, human potential, and above all oneself.

 The principles that work for learning anything, IMHO, also work for learning
 about human beings. And like music scores, there are humans so dissonant
 that they are not worth exploring in detail.

T.Y.
----
tyadav@athena.mit.edu
Newsgroups: alt.self-improve
From: stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com (Todd I. Stark)
Subject: Re: What is this group about?
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: 14 AUG 92 13:22:19    


>How can you connect all nine dots in the two dimensional plane below 
>using no more than four straight lines without lifting up the pen.

It's highly ironic to me that 99 % of the people I've come across who purport 
to teach _creative_ approaches all use the same tired examples to show creative
solutions, the nine dots problem, and the old lady/young lady reframe example
(not to mention all the vase/two faces examples).   There must be millions
of great, specific examples of creative problem solving and changing frame
of reference to look at new options, from practical areas that made an impact
on many people's lives, but the innovators all copy from each 
other the same awful artificial examples ?

Anybody else experience that ?

							todd
Newsgroups: alt.self-improve
From: stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com (Todd I. Stark)
Subject: Re: What is this group about?
Summary: Some thoughts on self-improve vs other-influence
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: 12 AUG 92 10:49:05    


malcolm@portia.csu.murdoch.edu.au (Hugh Malcolm) writes...
>Most of the stuff I've glanced through in this group in the past few
>weeks has been a lot of toing and froing by people who seem to be
>about changing "improving"(???) some-one _else_.
>Perhaps you should change the name of this group or start another :
>alt.other-improve?

IMO, the two are inextricably interwoven.  People operate in a system
with other people, and change to one affects the others in many ways,
and vice versa.  Only the tone and emphasis change between changework
aimed at myself and that aimed at people immediately around me.  I can't
really do one without influencing the other.  All communication is really
a 'manipulation' of a sort, including self-communication.  That's not to 
excuse the blatant conman for their 'changework,' or imply that trying
to change the world is always better or worse than trying to re-examine 
ourselves  --  just to point out the fuzzy boundary.

Personally, I enjoy the diversity I've seen in the posts here, and I'm more 
than willing to tolerate a lot of stuff that doesn't meet my own standards of 
what would improve *me* - in order to wait for the gems that sometimes appear 
(like that fascinating Sutphen article recently).  This is one of very few
newsgroups that I follow, though.

							kind regards,

							todd
Newsgroups: alt.self-improve
From: hughes@logos.ucs.indiana.edu (larry hughes)
Subject: Re: Control Techniques
Organization: University Computing Services News
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 14:05:22 GMT

> Tony Robbins seminar attendees, take note:
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> THE BATTLE FOR YOUR MIND
> by Dick Sutphen

I believe that this was a partial transcript from a cassette tape
that Sutphen asks everyone to freely copy and distribute.

If you listen to the tape, it's interesting to note that Sutphen
himself uses some of the verbal techniques he's warning you about.

I still think it's a very good tape to hear.  :-)

 //==================================================================\\
||      Larry J. Hughes, Jr.       |        hughes@indiana.edu        || 
||       Indiana University        | "The person who knows everything ||
||  University Computing Services  |        has a lot to learn."      ||
 \\===================================================================//
From: yost@adobe.com (David Yost)
Newsgroups: alt.self-improve
Subject: Psychotherapy Cults
Date: 22 Aug 92 20:14:38 GMT
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated

The fantastic article I referred to:

Psychotherapy cults: An Iatrogenic Perversion
by Maurice K. Temerlin and Jane W. Temerlin

appeared in Psychotherapy: Theory, Research and Practice
Summer, 1982  Volume 19 Number 2

"An earlier draft of this paper was presented as an invited address
to the Oklahoma Psychological Association, Oklahoma City, November 10, 1980."

Anyone know this article or these people?
I'd like to post the article in this group, but the copy I have
is too hopelessly munged to OCR it.

 --dave yost
Newsgroups: alt.self-improve
From: sonic@artgate.cray.com (Curtis Swanson)
Subject: Re: What is this group about?
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 12 Aug 92 20:20:09 CDT



In article <malcolm.713599310@portia>, malcolm@portia.csu.murdoch.edu.au (Hugh Malcolm) writes:
> Most of the stuff I've glanced through in this group in the past few
> weeks has been a lot of toing and froing by people who seem to be
> about changing "improving"(???) some-one _else_.
> Perhaps you should change the name of this group or start another :
> alt.other-improve?

Well, I think the techniques overlap somewhat.  Besides, discussions change
with time and participants.

> If there is anyone out there into _self_ change, what is it you are
> doing (trying to do) and why? What are your goals and objectives? How
> will you know when you have achieved your objectives.

I'm losing weight and trying to shred the low self-image I have from having
been overweight (and generally outcast) for 20 years.  I'm currently using
simple positive reinforcement techniques to achieve this.  It does help
greatly that I have more outside reinforcement than I used to.

> I'm thinking of the classic book People in quandaries by Wendell
> Johnson (look for it in a library not in the bookstore, it goes back a
> few decades).
> Johnson talks about the cycle of idealism, frustration and despair.
> How, if you don't define your objectives, leave them vague, you don't
> ever know when you have achieved them and so you see yourself as a
> failure and thus get frustrated and despair. Wanting to be "rich" or
> "successful" or "popular" or any such is not specific enough. And so
> on.

Agreed.  I have a specific image I want to achieve.  Very easy to tell if/how
close I am to it.

> What started me out on this whinge is that I am heavily into trying to
> improve the ineffectual, obsessive me and I thought that reading this
> group might be useful but so far it ain't.
> 

Give it time or ask questions.  I can't know what you want/need discussed
until you ask.

> --
> =================================================================
> | Hugh Malcolm / Social Sciences Librarian / Murdoch University |
> |  Perth, Western Australia. (Edge of the world, Network ends)  |
> | Internet: malcolm@portia.murdoch.edu.au                       |
> |                                                               |
> | "Da steh' ich nun, ich armer Tor"                             |
> =================================================================

Hear's hoping for a good new thread.....
--
***  Curt Swanson  ***  sonic@romulus.cray.com  ***  IOTTMCO  *********
HOME:n - That mythical place where you can go and relax.......
I'd rather be in a coma.........
Newsgroups: alt.self-improve
From: swesterback@tnclus.tele.nokia.fi
Subject: Re: What is this group about?
Organization: Nokia Telecommunications.
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 14:45:10 GMT

In article <malcolm.713599310@portia>, malcolm@portia.csu.murdoch.edu.au (Hugh Malcolm) writes:
> Most of the stuff I've glanced through in this group in the past few
> weeks has been a lot of toing and froing by people who seem to be
> about changing "improving"(???) some-one _else_.
> What started me out on this whinge is that I am heavily into trying to
> improve the ineffectual, obsessive me and I thought that reading this
> group might be useful but so far it ain't.

I have similar thoughts! In my opinion this news group should contain
articles and questions about methodes to access the huge capacity of the
human brain. It also could contain questions which stresses or tests the 
brain function. Here is a classic example of such a question:

How can you connect all nine dots in the two dimensional plane below 
using no more than four straight lines without lifting up the pen.

      *   *   *            Start in upper left corner!
                           And remember that ALL of them should be connected!
      *   *   *
 
      *   *   *

Please wait a few days before posting the answer to this newsgroup! 
You can send me a mail instead!
Think! Think!

-Sten-
============================================================================
B.Sc. Sten Westerback         Telephone: +358+0 +5115871(work) +740049(home)
Address: Mets{purontie  9 B19, SF-00630 Helsinki, FINLAND  Time zone: EET
Test the utility at WSMR-SIMTEL20.Army.mil::pd1:<msdos.dirutl>swxd303d.zip
NB! I am working, but not speaking for Nokia Telecommunications!
============================================================================
Newsgroups: alt.self-improve
From: hendricks@cdrom.enet.dec.com 
Subject: goal setting as a way of life
Reply-To: hendricks@cdrom.enet.dec.com
Organization: Digital
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 01:24:47 GMT


I've always been very goal-oriented.  A lot of my goals have been 
academic; those come relatively easy after many years.  If I don't
have a goal I'm working toward, I feel somewhat lost.

I don't like to just go ice skating; I like to identify and work on a skill.
I don't just play music, I work on a set of tunes in a very goal oriented 
way.  I am like this in all areas of my life.

People feel free to comment on this(!), and regularly tell me I'm not
having enough fun, relaxing enough, or giving myself enough down time, 
whatever that is.  I mostly ignore them, but I am different from many 
people.

I love to work late if I can explore interesting side areas that there
wasn't time to check out during the day.  I read reference books a lot.
I know what I like, I know what's satisfying to me, and I feel much
happier working towards goals.  I have a hard time setting goals in 
relationships with people because success takes a combined effort on the
parts of both people, so I tend towards activities where I can set and
reach my own goals.  I have a hard time just sitting around and 'relaxing'
at lunch with people because I'm always antsy to be *learning* something
or *doing* something, for example.

Sometimes it's hard to find other people who understand these patterns 
- are there other people in this newsgroup who can relate to what 
I'm describing?

Holly
Newsgroups: alt.self-improve
From: yost@adobe.COM (David Yost)
Subject: Re: NLP - what exactly is it?
Reply-To: yost@adobe.COM
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 17:17:35 GMT

Your article about NLP history reminds me of a fantastic article
I have called "Psychotherapy Cults".  Anyone else know this article?
When I get home I should dig it out and type in the details.

 --dave yost
Newsgroups: alt.self-improve
From: llarsen%peruvian.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Loren Larsen)
Subject: Re: What is this group about?
Date: 14 Aug 92 17:07:43 MDT
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept

In article <1992Aug14.172731.8813@PA.dec.com> stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com (Todd I. Stark) writes:
>
>>How can you connect all nine dots in the two dimensional plane below 
>>using no more than four straight lines without lifting up the pen.
>
>It's highly ironic to me that 99 % of the people I've come across who purport 
>to teach _creative_ approaches all use the same tired examples to show creative
>solutions, the nine dots problem, and the old lady/young lady reframe example
>(not to mention all the vase/two faces examples).   There must be millions
>of great, specific examples of creative problem solving and changing frame
>of reference to look at new options, from practical areas that made an impact
>on many people's lives, but the innovators all copy from each 
>other the same awful artificial examples ?
>
>Anybody else experience that ?
>
>							todd

I agree.  The nine dots problem is so well known I can't image someone not
knowing it.  Admittedly it challenges paradigms and can seem pretty amazing
when you first see it (at least it amazes you how locked into a mode of 
thinking you are).

I'm not really sure why I'm posting this other than just to express how
annoying it is to continually hear people talk about creativity and then
have them spew some example they obviously read in some book.  I guess it
just shows how much they need to work on their creativity.  Unfortunately
any book that uses such trite examples is probably not going to be much help.

Loren





Newsgroups: alt.birthright,alt.abortion.inequity,talk.abortion
From: Larry Margolis <margoli@watson.ibm.com>
Subject: Re: Shameless attack on pro-choicers in general!
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 19:01:02 GMT
Reply-To: margoli@watson.ibm.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: The Village Waterbed

In  <1992Aug12.162626.22289@csus.edu>  chaneysa@nextnet.csus.edu (Stephen A Chaney) writes:
> In article <1992Aug10.171220.35359@watson.ibm.com> margoli@watson.ibm.com writes
> >In  <1992Aug10.161448.6148@csus.edu>  chaneysa@nextnet.csus.edu (Stephen A Chan
> >> The z/e/f does. A common person's view of what I'm
> >> saying, might be, "Feed all the chicken soup you want, to sperm, ova,
> >> skin cells, or warts, but they just won't differentiate." Can't say
> >> that about the z/e/f.
> >
> >If this were true, there would be much less controversy.  Unfortunately,
> >you *can't* feed chicken soup to a z/e/f; you have to filter it through
> >a *person*.
>
> Well, you have to have a *person* give any child, born or not, their
> food. At least until they're old enough to know what a spoon & fork
> are. For 9 months, you have to filter it (to put it in your words)
> through a person; for at least 48 months, you've got to have a person
> bring the food to the kid.
>
> What's the critical difference?

*Anyone* can feed a child.  Feeding a child doesn't affect the feeder's
body.  If you forget to give the kid his or her vitamins, the child
doesn't leach them from your body.

Larry Margolis, MARGOLI@YKTVMV (Bitnet), margoli@watson.IBM.com (Internet)
Xref: sparky alt.birthright:381 alt.abortion.inequity:3106 talk.abortion:31391
From: chrisl@stpaul.gov (Chris A Lyman)
Newsgroups: alt.birthright,alt.abortion.inequity,talk.abortion
Subject: Re: Shameless attack on pro-choicers in general!
Date: 12 Aug 92 18:36:24 GMT
Organization: City of Saint Paul Public Works

chaneysa@nextnet.csus.edu (Stephen A Chaney) writes:
> margoli@watson.ibm.com writes:
>> chaneysa@nextnet.csus.edu (Stephen A Chaney) writes:

>>> The z/e/f does. A common person's view of what I'm
>>> saying, might be, "Feed all the chicken soup you want, to sperm, ova,
>>> skin cells, or warts, but they just won't differentiate." Can't say
>>> that about the z/e/f.

>> If this were true, there would be much less controversy.  Unfortunately,
>> you *can't* feed chicken soup to a z/e/f; you have to filter it through
>> a *person*.

Which is true for sperm and ova too!

> Well, you have to have a *person* give any child, born or not, their
> food. At least until they're old enough to know what a spoon & fork
> are. For 9 months, you have to filter it (to put it in your words)
> through a person; for at least 48 months, you've got to have a person
> bring the food to the kid.

My 10yo son is only now getting his own cold cereal in the morning, but he
still likes me to cook him his oatmeal. :-) 

> Isn't that a harmless sort of slavery, those latter 48 months? It sure
> looks, to me, a lot longer than 9 months. But then again, I came from
> Earth Math School, were 48 > 9. Mathematics may vary for others. :) 

"Harmless sort of slavery:"  something that Kevin Welch said, as I recall.
Hmmm.  <sniff> <sniff>  Aha, it's flamebait!

> In other words: 
> What's the critical difference? 

The difference is that the fetus has first dibs on every calorie that
the mother consumes.  That might give you something of a clue as to why
a woman might not want to be pregnant.

Imo, the most important reason for a woman to be pregnant is that she
_wants_ to be pregnant!

-- 
Chris Lyman  -  email: chrisl@pwcs.stpaul.gov  -  #include <std.disclaimers.h>
 "A conservative government is an organized hypocrisy." -- Benjamin Disraeli
Newsgroups: alt.birthright,alt.abortion.inequity,talk.abortion