HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: forda@gtephx.UUCP (Andrew Ford @ AGCS, Phoenix, Arizona)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Civil immunity states (was Re: Hand-loads for defens)
Date: 31 Aug 92 12:56:44 GMT
Organization: gte

In article <5354.78.uupcb@cutting.hou.tx.us>, jim.wray@cutting.hou.tx.us (Jim Wray) writes:
# Russ Kepler wrote:
# 
[...]
# RK>If you should happen to have to fire in self defense it's likely that
# RK>you will go to court.  "Going to court" isn't a simple matter of
# RK>showing up at a trial and making a statement, allowing a few folks to
# RK>mull it over and waiting for a thumbs up (or down) - it's a whole hell
# RK>of a lot more involved.
# 
# RK>Believe me - I just spent better than 2 million dollars in a civil
# RK>action.  It wasn't all my money, but better than 20% of it was, and
# RK>that hurts.
[...]
# This is a horror story that has every chance of being duplicated *many*
# more times in the future as our judicial system tends more and more to
# be only interested in the "rights" of the criminal.
[...]
 
I'll stick to the laws here and avoid political comment (if I can).

One solution to the nightmare civil case described by Russ Kepler is
to live in a state where the statutes defining justification
for the use of deadly physical force include a protection from *both*
civil and criminal liability.  

Arizona is one such state, and I've been told Colorado is, too.

Perhaps we could get a list of civil immunity states going --
I'll volunteer to (try to) keep track of posts and emails
on this topic. 

Email is preferred (I'll post a summary).
	[MODERATOR:  Please (to both).]

Please feel free to respond whether your state has civil immunity
for justifiable homicides or not.  (I'd like to get responses from
all 50 + DC).

Please include your source of info (ie: "as I understand", the
statutes read (include excerpts of statutes, if possible), 
my attorney told me, a cop told me (not as reliable source
as you might think -- these guys often get the departments
opinion instead of the law), or the state attorney general said)
	[MODERATOR: Or the preface that makes it, in the eyes of
	 sailors everywhere, one step short of gospel... "no sh*t,..." ...]

I'd also be interested in:
    Are you required to try to run away before shooting?
    Are you justified in shooting to protect others (ie: you witness
        an armed robbery and intervene)?
    Are these answers true for the entire state or just once city/county?

Thanks,


-- 
"25 States allow anyone to buy a gun, strap it on, and walk down the street with
no permit of any kind: some say it's crazy.  However, 4 out of 5 US murders are 
committed in the other half of the country: so who is crazy?"   -  Andrew Ford
gtephx!forda@enuucp.eas.asu.edu  OR  !uunet!samsung!romed!enuucp!gtephx!forda
From: ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Bismuth and lead poisoning (was Re: Non-lead bullets, some ponderings)
Date: 28 Aug 92 15:07:36 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA

In article <1992Aug26.174848.20773@ttinews.tti.com> hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath) writes:
#In article <1992Aug25.035251.2201@athena.mit.edu> sybok@athena.mit.edu (The Rifleman) writes:
#}In article <9208250156.AA22098@relay1.UU.NET> chuckh@apex.com 
#}(Chuck Huffington) writes:
#}#In article <71502@apple.Apple.COM> ems@Apple.COM (Mike Smith) writes:
#}##I was pondering the statement that Fiocci had non-Lead primers ....
#}#
#}#Bismuth is toxic.  
#}
#}Bismuth may be toxic, but it is much less so than lead. ...
#
#When I was an acne plagued kid my dermatologist used to give me bismuth
#compounds (bistrimate) in pill form.  Later he could measure how much I
#was excreting through skin pores.
#
#I'm still here, so it can't be all _that_ toxic.

OK, I'm sold.  Less toxic than lead and cures my acne too! ;-)

Where can I get some Bismuth to try?  I presume the local scrap
dealer won't have a lump of it, and that the local Science Shop
will have it, but for $50/pound...  Where can I get some for
more reasonable prices?

BTW, I think I may have had a slight acute lead toxicity episode...
I was trying my first lead casting with an electric bottom pour
pot and think I had it too hot (got some yellow powder forming
on the top).  The next day I had some diarrhea, mild headache,
sinus discomfort, and generally felt odd/lousy for a couple of days.

Now I'm REALLY interested in finding a non/low toxicity bullet 
material :-( 

What was the yellow powder, lead oxide?  Why did it form?

Does this sound like acute lead poisoning to you?  (It matched
about 1/2 or less the symtoms in my medical encyclopedea, so
I think it was a mild exposure... ergo no visit to the Doc...)

-- 

E. Michael Smith  ems@apple.COM

'Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it.  Boldness has
 genius, power and magic in it.'  -  Goethe

I am not responsible nor is anyone else.  Everything is disclaimed.
From: hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: A minor sermon on finding advice (WasRe: How much crimp is enough?)
Date: 4 Sep 92 02:33:25 GMT
Organization: NCSU Computing Center

In article <oedULMb0BwxdEFpQls@transarc.com> Ken_Ziolkowski@transarc.com writes:
# ...
#  The first few dummy rounds (empty case, bullet,
#no primer) had too much and the necks were pretty
#crushed, a few more had no crimp at all. After a
#little more adjusting, I think I have the die set
#right.
#
#  But how much crimp is enough?

  (I'm not picking on Ken, but this is a good excuse to talk about
finding advice.)

  One of the *big* advantages of buying supplies/equipment locally
is that you may be able to find a local supplier who is an expert
in reloading.  You may pay extra, but the guidance you can get will
be much more valuable to you than the difference in price.  You may
have to look around, and sample a few places, but it sure is worth
the effort.  If I had the rounds mentioned above, I'd just take them
down to Hill's in Raleigh and ask Bobby, Mr. Hill or Rex to take a
look at them.  In about 30 seconds I'd have an answer about how well
the last setting was working, and it would be an answer I'd trust.

  Often you can find a fellow reloader who is a good source of
advice.  Another source of guidance is comparing your reloads with
commercially produced ammo.  While the net is a wonderful source of
information and advice, it has the drawback that it is hard to
assess the quality of the advice.  Some of the most certain sounding
statements come from some of the most inexperienced posters.  So
beware such advice, double check it, and remember that *you* have
the ultimate responsibility.  (I didn't just walk into Hill's and
decide to trust them - I talked to them a number of times, double
checked their advice, talked to others who had shopped there, and
gradually decided how much credence to put in their advice.)

  I don't buy everything from them, but since I do use their
advice I certainly do buy from them the supplies and equipment 
they've helped me with.  They are not a discount store by any
means, but I feel that I've come out way ahead.

--henry schaffer  n c state univ

[MODERATOR:  Your Humble Moderator does exactly this too, for what
its worth to the readership.  When I have some really deep reloading
question, I just package off a case to Henry, and by gosh he takes
it down to Bobby or Rex and comes up with the right insights... :-)]
From: burge@qdeck.com (Bill Burge)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Which P-7 to use at Gunsite?
Date: 28 Aug 92 15:07:09 GMT
Organization: Quarterdeck Office Systems, Santa Monica CA

In article <9208252249.AA26307@NMSU.Edu> loki@acca.nmsu.edu writes:
#
#I am planning (read that as 'hoping fervently') to attend the basic pistol
#class at Jeff Cooper's Gunsite ranch sometime soon (summer '93?).  Anyone
#out there have any comments to make on the Gunsite class?
#
#I intend to take an H&K P-7 of some sort to the class, as this is what I 
#intend to carry (despite the esteemed Colonel's opinions on the 9mm cartridge,
#I find the P-7 the most attractive option available for a carry gun).  I
#currently have a P-7 PSP, with the grip-heel (European style) magazine
#catch, but I am considering trading this weapon in for a P-7 M8, with the
#thumb-release (American style) magazine catch.  Any opinions, pro or con,

I would always prefer the thumb release.  Most of the drills that you will
at the class will probably lean toward it.  I would also consider using
one with a Teflon coating, or maybe Stainless or hardchrome...
Cause when you show up at Gunsite with a "European Wonder Nine" (much as
I like 'em, mine's a Glock) he's gonna want to shove it up your... nevermind.
The Teflon will make it less painful but the Stainless or chrome will save
the gun finish.

Bill "the Wonder Nine Guy"	burge@qdeck.com

[MODERATOR:  So I guess the poster should also have care to switch
lubrication from CLP to KY ... ??]
From: lwb@cs.utexas.edu (Lance W. Bledsoe)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: stupid shooter tricks
Date: 3 Sep 92 14:09:03 GMT
Organization: U Texas Dept of Computer Sciences, Austin TX

In article <m0mPpIK-0001xVC@rose.com> mike.federchuk@rose.com writes:
#Speaking as a novice skeet shooter (I've only been shooting for one year), I
#have to agree with you.  The lack of muzzle control displayed by some skeet
#shooters is astounding!  From what I've seen, trap and sporting clays shooters
#are no better.  I can't count the number of times that I've seen some one rest
#a gun barrel on a foot.  

Speaking as a "B & C" class tournament Skeet shooter, I can say that this is
normal, standard procedure.  Most "Skeet" guns (virtually 100% over-and-unders)
weigh well over 8 pounds.  (I have a Citori 4 barrel set that has added weight,
and several "modifications").  In a tournament weekend you will shoot AT LEAST
400 rounds, and perhaps 600.  In and effort to save arms and shoulders, the 
barrel of the gun is commonly rested on the shooters foot.  Many companies
sell a special "patch" that attaches to the shoe to hold the gun.

#Then there are the hinge-gun shooters who, after opening the action, rest the
#"bent" gun on their shoulder.  Sure the action is now open, but the barrel is
#pointing at their partners mid-section.  

This is the SECOND most used position, it too is perfectly normal.  This is
my preferred position when I forget to attach my foot patch.  :-)

#Another infamous chap at my club bought himself a semi-automatic shotgun, after
#shooting a super-imposed hinge-gun for years.  Since it was "convenient", he
#decided to load five shells into the gun, on station one.  

This is STRICTLY forbidden by NSSA rules and by EVERY gun club I've ever
attended.  If this happened in a tournament, he would have probablly
been disqualified.  

Why would you need FIVE shells at station one??? I only need FOUR! :-)

#Two skeet clubs in my area have even proposed banning pump and semi-automatic
#shotguns, on the grounds that it is too difficult to tell if the action is
#open!  The Caliden club may even be enforcing this ban.

Don't do that!  I need those guys to pump all those empty hulls on the
ground so I can buy the empties and reload them!!!

#Sadly, I could go on and on with tales of un-safe gun handling. :-(

Don't stop now... Tell us the one about the guy who put the empty
clip in his pocket, and everyone thought is was full!  :-)

Lance

-- 
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|  Lance W. Bledsoe          lwb@cs.utexas.edu           (512) 258-0112  |
|  "How did the Scarecrow know he didn't have a brain?"                  |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: cramer@optilink.com (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Travelling help
Date: 28 Aug 92 01:21:50 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA


In article <23032@hacgate.SCG.HAC.COM>, kemasa@ghost.hac.com (Kemasa) writes:
# In article <11883@optilink.UUCP> cramer@optilink.com (Clayton Cramer) writes:
# #This is a new form of Kalifornia madness.  I don't know if anyone has
# #been convicted or not, but the last time my wife went shooting at the
# #indoor range in Cotati, CA, the rangemaster warned her that Cotati
# #Police had taken to sitting outside the range, and stopping people
# #coming out of, or into the range, and inspecting their handguns.
# #They were using the "ridiculous interpretation" of the Kalifornia
# #law to confiscate guns from people who had a loaded magazine in 
# #the same bag as a gun.  No effect for my wife, she has a permit
# #to carry, but it's pretty amazing to think that the Cotati PD has
# #enough time and energy to engage in this sort of madness.
# 
# Under what grounds do they attempt this and what happens if you
# refuse?

Leaving a gun range with a bag of any sort certainly would constitute
probable cause for a search.  California law specifically grants 
police the authority to examine any gun carried in public to determine
if it is loaded or not.
 
# Just going into a gun range is not a crime and if they can not see

Yet.  Kalifornia may get around to it.

# any guns then they can not assume that you have one. It would be
# interesting to see what would happen if you went in with a large
# bag/case that did not have any guns and refused to let them take
# a look at it. When it was found out that there were no guns involved
# what would their excuse be?

Probable cause doesn't require perfection.

# 						 Kemasa.


-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
Alcohol prohibition didn't work; drug prohibition doesn't work; gun
prohibition won't work.
From: jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Mas Ayoob to be in Seattle
Date: 25 Aug 92 21:19:43 GMT
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University

#From article <92237.121225U16244@uicvm.uic.edu>, by U16244%uicvm.uic.edu@OHSTVMA.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU:
# In article <1992Aug20.190913.28542@news.yale.edu>, swatt%mickey@net.yale.edu
# (Alan Watt) says:
# #|>
# #|> If you do go, take him a bottle of Rolling Rock Beer and tell him that
# #|> you heard about it on the net.
# #|>
# #
# #I don't know where he finds that stuff -- I swear he has a truckload
# #delivered to his house daily.  Must be a regional brand?
# 
# I don't know about the truckload, but Rolling Rock is available in Chicago and
# the area.  Maybe that would entice him to visit even more if we developed a
# Chicago Rolling Rock campaign around the various gun clubs, if they want him
# to show up.

I've been told that he shows up at Winamac, IN (sp?) at lease a
couple of times a year (summer), don't know of any particular
schedule though.
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas Moore)
From: shaver@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Bryan Shaver)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Colt AR-15/Sporter
Date: 28 Aug 92 01:20:59 GMT
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD


In rec.guns, C08926RC@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu (Rob) writes:
##Apparently, the laws passed in the last few years prohibited Colt from
##making the AR-15 for sale to civilians within the U.S.
#
#I don't believe there were laws passed to prohibit Colt from selling
#the AR-15 to civilians.  Rather, it was a voluntary action made by the
#parent company, Colt Industries.
#
#Eventually, Colt Industries sold off the firearms manufacturing division,
#and the new owners came out with the Sporter for civilian sales.
#
#Rob


So what are the main differences between the AR-15 and the Sporter?

BDS




$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

"An Investment in Knowledge Pays the Best Interest"
						    - Benjamin Franklin

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
From: FKK@SLACVM.SLAC.Stanford.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Mini-14 accuracy
Date: 2 Sep 92 19:05:11 GMT
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center


I talked to a gun shop owner who sent a Mini-14 to the place in Odessa
Texas for rework.  He said that it came back with 1 MOA or better in accuracy.
But by the time you are done paying for a Mini-14 and having it reworked
it will cost just as much as a AR-15 clone that will shoot the same way.
One side comment- it is possible for just about anyone to upgrade a AR-15 to
match quality by installing new parts available by mail.  I have dealt with
Quaility Arms in Maine with good service and results.
From: burge@qdeck.com (Bill Burge)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: more handloading info required...
Date: 4 Sep 92 02:33:19 GMT
Organization: Quarterdeck Office Systems, Santa Monica CA

In article <9208311519.AA12725@bigguy.eng.ufl.edu> glock@chip.cba.ufl.edu (Joe Granto) writes:
#Okay, so my friend and I decided on Lee handloading equipment.  It should 
#arrive in a couple of days.  Now I have some very important questions:
#
#We are interested in handloading 9mm and 10mm rounds, and own Glocks.  I 
#know that Glocks can take very high pressures, and was wondering if anyone 
#out there can give me the upper limits of what a Glock 17 and 20 can handle (
#eg, a 10mm 185 gr JHP moving at 1800fps, or however else it should be 
#stated).
#

Grain of salt time!!!!  For my Glock 17 I have a load I like.  It is above
max.  It is not listed in any reloading manauls. It is over MAX.
7 gr of W-W 571 : 147gr CP lead or lead : Federal Primer : good case (usually
Fed or PMC).  It clocks about 1050 from my 17.

BE WARNED.

Bill	burge@qdeck.com
From: hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Washington state handgun hunting
Date: 29 Aug 92 23:41:14 GMT
Article-I.D.: ncsu.1992Aug29.214254.19938
Organization: NCSU Computing Center - Adams' Family Club

In article <2956@voodoo.UUCP> voodoo!tomm@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Tom Mackey) writes:
#I got curious about handgun hunting so I checked the 92/93 Washington State
#hunting rules pamplet.  From page 8 I quote:
#
#    "HANDGUNS - For deer, bear, or cougar hunting, centerfire handguns
#    approved for hunting purposes must be a minimum of .24 caliber, have
#    a minimum barrel length of four (4) inches, usa a mushrooming or
#    expanding-type bullet, and generate a minimum of 500 foot pounds of
                                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
#    energy at 100 yards.
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
# ...
#    A .357 magnum revolver, 9mm autoloader, or .45 ACP do not meet these
#    energy standards and are not legal for big game hunting."

  First of all, 500 ft. lbs. is considered on the low side for
deer.  Also, why would they exclude the .357 Mag. after they've
given the 500 ft.lbs. figure?  Here's some exterior ballistics for
the .357 Mag. taken from the Hornady manuals, 4th ed.  Using a 
heavy bullet, say the Hornady 180 gr. JTC-SIL, with a BC of .232,
at a muzzle velocity of 1350 fps (fastest load in their table - 
using 13.2 gr. of AA #9) we get 728 ft. lbs. at the muzzle and
533 ft. lbs. at 100 yds.  (This probably isn't an expanding, but
that should affect the ballistics much.)  If one goes with a
higher velocity lighter bullet, say the 158 gr. HP/XTP, at the
listed max. velocity of 1450 fps, this gives a muzzle energy of
669 ft-lbs, and 508 ft-lbs at 100 yards (the BC is .206).
Even driving it at 1500 fps only ups the 100 yd energy to 539 ft. lbs.

  My conclusion is that even the hottest .357 Mag. loads barely
make it across their 500 ft. lbs. criterion - (and that even the
500 ft. lbs. isn't quite high enough) - and that they just don't
want to get into the inevitable arguments on this score.

  By comparison the .44 Mag. with the 180 gr. HP/XTP bullet at
1700 fps has 1155 ft. lbs at the muzzle and still has 687 ft lbs
at 100 yards.
# ...

--henry schaffer  n c state univ
From: vanetten@unix.cie.rpi.edu (John S. Van Etten)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Why a sawed-off shotgun?
Date: 1 Sep 92 20:33:06 GMT
Organization: CIE, Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY

Clayton Cramer writes:

#Michael Newton, _Armed and Dangerous: A Writer's Guide to Weapons_,
#(Cincinnatti, Ohio, Writer's Digest Books: 1990), 44-45, claims that
#about 40,000 shotguns were purchased by the military for use as "trench 
#brooms" during World War I.  He does not explicitly say that they
#were sawed-off (though this is the context), although I have seen 
#this claim elsewhere that the model used in the U.S. v. Miller 
#(1939) case was identical to one used in WWI.
#
#This presents an interesting question.

According to Kevin Steele ("Shooting America's Military Shotguns,"
_Guns & Ammo_, January 1991, pp. 50-55, 86-87) and another source that
I don't have up here (probably the one Kevin cited :-) there were
19,196 "trench" shotguns delivered to the military in WWI (mostly M97
Winchesters, with a few M12 Winchesters also).  All had 20" cylinder
bores.
     I've heard that Miller's shotgun was only an inch or so under the
18" limit.  It's interesting to note that if one of the WWI guns were
cut down to remove the W-shaped mount for the Pattern 1917 bayonet,
just ahead of the end of the magazine, it would have a barrel around
17" or so.  Perhaps this is what Miller did (pure speculation).


John

--
******************************************************************************
               John S. Van Etten     vanetten@unix.cie.rpi.edu
       Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute  1000 MIPS GaAs F-RISC Project
       --"If sand didn't irritate oysters, there would be no pearls"--
From: edp@sneaks.kodak.com (Ed Pendzik -- Sun Consulting)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Beretta 92 problems
Date: 31 Aug 92 22:02:35 GMT


#The DOCUMENTED allegations are that the slide in numerous military guns
firing hot ammo broke in such a manner that the rear portion of the
slide flew to the rear, sometimes hitting the shooter in the face
causing injury.


Since the NUMEROUS occasions are DOCUMENTED, it should be EASY
for you to post your sources, including page number and author.

As I recall only 3 slide were ever found to have cracked,
all used by seals, and only one sailor was injured
The slides had an unknown number of 9mm sub-gun ammo put thru them
by seals in training. One slide that failed had a definite number of
9mm sub-gun rounds put thru it.

Fact #1: certainly, the slide stop was added. I think most of the 
reason for this was to make the bureaucrats feel better, even though
a major investagation at the beretta factory came up with nothing.

in some cases, like yours, people take this as a confesion
of guilt and look at the slide stop as equivalent to having the gun
come with a goalie mask.

Fact #2: yes, there is no recall for guns without this safety.
If there was a real problem with slides hitting shooters in the face,
don't you think that beretta, the oldest company in the world
(oldest company, not just oldest gun company), would recall and 
update all the 92's just to avoid litagation?


*YES*. I know the military replaces slides @ 3000 rounds or so.
This is the same military which didn't allow the marines at the
US embassy in Lebanon or Desert Storm troops to have mags in their M16's.

I'd like to see FACTS, not 'my buddie heard...'


	Ed Pendzik
From: loki@acca.nmsu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: P-7 Velocities
Date: 27 Aug 92 00:38:30 GMT


Chris Luchini recently shook my faith (only slightly) in one of my favorite
handguns, the H&K P-7.  He alleged (probably from his own chronograph tests)
that the gas action of the P-7 robs a noticible fraction of velocity from
the projectile, as opposed to browning type actions.  Does anyone else have
any firm data on this?  Or could you post yours, or a reference, Chris?

--Dan

"Master... Master...                       (To The Tune of Metallica's)
	Master of Science is your degree.  ('Master of Puppets')
	You're too dumb for a PhD.              loki@acca.nmsu.edu
	Should have studied for the GRE!    dftaylor@cechem.colorado.edu