From: duggan@cc.gatech.edu (Rick Duggan)
Subject: Re: NO MORE %$#@* E-MAIL ABOUT THE JOB SITUATION
Organization: College of Computing
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 16:01:30 GMT

In article <92203.030703U53644@uicvm.uic.edu> U53644@uicvm.uic.edu writes:
>I am very tired of getting e-mail from people about posts that they haven't
>even read.
>
>Let me make this perfectly clear : I NEVER SAID THAT IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE TO GET
>A JOB. Jesus Christ, people, I spent most of my posts talking about how to

You, sir, are lying.  And here's my proof:

>Now for a reality break..............(from someone who has been out
>                                        in the real world for a while).
>
>      Now, as for the demographic impossibility of even a significant
>      fraction of us getting academic jobs, there is such a mountain of
>      evidence supporting this observation that I am forced to ask
>      Mr. Toreki exactly what it would take to convince him, or where he
>      has been in the last few years.
>
>      Look, I know that you all have worked very hard to get these careers.
>      I know how badly you want them. And believe it or not, I really don't
>      enjoy having to be the one to tell you that a big part of your dreams
>      simply can never happen. But life is what it is.
       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>      To use an analogy I've already raised, suppose that you ordered a car,
>      and it was delivered to your house without a motor. Sure, you'd bitch,
>      you'd give the company a hard time, and you'd warn other people to
>      stay away from the company. But would you try to drive that car ?
>
>      You've been lied to. It isn't fair, and by all means, it's only right
>      to kick up a fuss, and warn others. But beyond doing this, you have to
>      be willing to move on and pursue such opportunities as actually exist.
>      And there are none to be had in Academia. Perhaps you can get a part
       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>      time position, and still get to have the joy of teaching, but you will
>      never make a living at it.
>
>"None ?", someone might say, "but what if you are one of the top people
> around ?". Sigh. I can almost hear Mr. Toreki saying this, and I can
> understand why he would - almost everyone thinks that at one point. The fact
> that you're in graduate school proves that you've been the smart kid on the
> block at some point or another. But so have all of your competitors. Basing
> your future on an assumption that you'll beat the competition is one that
> we've been able to get away with in the past, but now it's just plain silly.

The above line that I've highlighted for the reader's convenience shows
that you did exactly say that it was impossible to get a job.  If you're
having trouble figuring out why, let me explain.  See, if you say that
there are no jobs (as you did above) then that is the same as saying
that it is impossible to get a job.  If there is not a position open,
you can't get it (the non-existent position).  And before you get all
hot and bothered, this is the claim people have been disputing.  I've never
disputed your claim that there are consulting, part-time, etc. jobs.
No doubt, there are such jobs available; however, some people have
argued (using acecdotal evidence) that there are tenure-track positions
to be had.  And there are.  Remember, if there is even one such job
available, your claim above is invalid.

>pursue it, particularly in the business sector. But let Robert Toreki say that

Yes, we have all seen you talk about jobs in the business sector, 
particularly in consulting.  However, you have stated that there
are few pure science jobs in industry.  That's not what we're
disputing.  In fact, we even believe that consulting is an interesting
opportunity.

>I said something, and more than a few of you seem willing to turn your brains
>off, and say "Du-uh. Rob says dis guy bad-mouthing da profs. I better send him
>e-note saying cut dat out."

Sure.  Whatever you say, Joseph.  It's more like a few of us seem 
willing to call you on your lies.  Again, there you go with 
the personal insults.  You personally attack anyone who disagrees
with you, instead of attacking their arguments.  Look, I can think
for myself.  In doing so, I've found you to be a hypocrite.

You engage in personal attacks while claiming you don't.

You accuse others of lying, and do so yourself.

You decry your opponents' alleged "straw-man" arguments, then
promptly proceed to set up a classic case of one.

>         On work : When you have just a pure science degree, without any
>                             coursework in an Applied field, work in general
>                             is almost impossible to get, so you should get
>                             a serious amount of coursework in a field in
>                             which your pure science area finds application.
>
>                             Academic careers in the pure sciences are almost
>                             impossible to get, though electrical engineering

Wait.  I thought you just said these were "impossible" to get, not
"almost impossible."  If you can't figure it out for yourself,
there is a huge difference in these two statements.  I believe 
Dr. Toreki has been the one saying that jobs are available 
(though the situation may be bleak).  What are you going to do now
that you agree with him (and have taken his position)?

>                             is better off in this regard.
>
>           About employment surveys : Gee, maybe you should be skeptical about
>                             them when they're really favorable, and carried
>                             out by people teaching the field being recommended

Maybe we should be skeptical.  In fact, skepticism is often healthy.
Again, that's a far cry from calling them a conspiracy and a fraud.

>NO MORE ! NOT ONE MORE E-FLAME ON THIS TOPIC. I'm out of patience, and my
>sense of humor is going fast. The next e-dweeb to send me some halfbrained
>complaint to me about saying something that I never posted is going to have

What if we send you something you *did* post?  

>a harassment complaint about him posted to the appropriate net, civil and
>criminal authorities, and if he persists, I will have a peace bond signed
>out against him. I've had it up to here with this crap, folks, and that's it.
>

By the way, there are no net authorities.  Before posting here again
(since you have shown such ignorance of the workings of the net)
go read news.announce.newusers.

>I'd go up to Evanston, and sic my neighbor's pet Rottweiler on Mr. Toreki,
>but I'm afraid that Rob might bite him back.

Great!  You threaten to take everyone on the net who disagrees with you 
to court.  Actually, if you were being harassed (which I don't think
you are) that would be the reasonable way to take care of it.
But then you threaten Dr. Toreki, thus losing all of your credibility.

You are not welcome here, sir.  Finally, your diatribes have outweighed
your useful postings.

-rick


"Random acts of violence just don't do it for me anymore.  It must be
 maturity." - Cactus Jack WCW Saturday Night 07/04/92
Rick Duggan | duggan@cc.gatech.edu | CS1410 TA - Section A
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