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Date:         Mon, 7 Sep 1992 13:21:17 HST
From:         James Shimabukuro <JAMESS@UHUNIX.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Ice T and Murphy Brown

Greg DiMedio,

   Yes.  Yes.  Yes!

   Thank you for putting into words, so eloquently, thoughts that lay
inchoate for so long.

Jim
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Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1992 18:52:50 -0400
From:         ENGMYLES@UBVMS.BITNET
Subject:      Re: (Fwd: *C&CD*) RE: ReComposing (6

It doesn't make sense to ask other depts what they want; it makes a great
deal of sense to tell them what you propose to do for their students, that
is to make th;em literate readers and writerswho can go on to become technical
writers.   I hate the prospect of writing for engineers, etc.  Give them
Shakespeare to read and write about, and Joyce, and Marianne Moore, and let
the engineering school teach them how to solve problems.  In writing.
I am a reactionary.
Myles
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Date:         Wed, 9 Sep 1992 06:35:00 EDT
From:         "Composition Digest (Robert Royar,
              Moderator)" <R0MILL01@ULKYVX.BITNET>
Subject:      (Fwd: *C&CD*) WetWare (Was: Slime Molds and Hypertext. ..) (10)

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Date:         Wed, 09 Sep 1992 06:08:50 EDT
From:         IN%"RobertRoyar@Delphi.com" Robert Royar (C&CD Moderator)
Message-Id:   <1992Sep09.060850.1.Grendel.Lair@Cratylus>
Subject:      WetWare (Was: Slime Molds and Hypertext...) (10)
Reply-to:     IN%"R0MILL01@ULKYVX.LOUISVILLE.EDU"  C&CD
Organization: Cratylus Educational Software

In message <AeeINKW00Uh7M3Vf1z@andrew.cmu.edu> Lili Velez
<lv08+%ANDREW.CMU.EDU@CARNEGIE.BITNET> says
>If left unattended, the average bathroom tile surface can provide
>numerous slime molds.  Unfortunately, _nothing_ "spontaneously" provides
>hardware capable of running hypertext programs. I have to work with
>materials that my students are able to get their hands on....

If left unattended the human brain will spontaneously develop wetware capable
of running hypertext programs.  We do it all the time.  Perhaps the real value
to hypertext (should there be any) is not in the neat ways we can trick the
user into thinking we've created a world in the machine but in the spillover
of the concept of hyperware into the user's thinking strategies. But then that
still leaves the question of how the user gets the initial training to learn
the hypersystem of thinking.

 -- Robert Royar (RobertRoyar@Delphi.com) New York Institute of Technology
*************************************
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From: R0MILL01@ULKYVX.BITNET (Composition Digest (Robert Royar,
              Moderator))
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: (Fwd: *C&CD*) GALLUA why spell it that way? (12)
Date: 10 Sep 92 01:12:00 GMT
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Date:         Wed, 09 Sep 1992 19:59:30 EDT
From:         IN%"RobertRoyar@Delphi.com" Robert Royar (C&CD Moderator)
Message-Id:   <1992Sep09.195930.1.Grendel.Lair@Cratylus>
Subject:      GALLUA why spell it that way? (12)
Reply-to:     IN%"R0MILL01@ULKYVX.LOUISVILLE.EDU"  C&CD
Organization: Cratylus Educational Software

Trent Batson <TWBATSON@GALLUA.BITNET> in message
<01GOL4Y2V48G9TCNO5@ulkyvx.bitnet> responding to queries about his address
writes

>"GALLUA" stands for Gallaudet University VAX A (what else?).

>Why the computer folks here couldn't see the kind of confusion everyone
>here is commenting on (between the AU in Gallaudet and the UA in Gallua)
>is beyond me;

I believe that the original Bitnet setup imposed a six-character limit on site
names--hence GALLUA, GALLUB, ULKYVX, UCBVAX, etc. The old PDPs had
six-character file names, and site names are really just another file in the
stream.

 -- Robert Royar (RobertRoyar@Delphi.com) New York Institute of Technology


*************************************
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Date:         Sun, 6 Sep 1992 07:41:05 HST
From:         James Shimabukuro <JAMESS@UHUNIX.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: audiences

David Schwalm, re Pirsig: I wonder what the students would've chosen to write
about, had they been given the freedom?  I admit, though, that asking them to
"look around town and describe what they see" is nearly as open-ended as
anyone could get.  I'm sure an Ice T T-shirt can't be too far down the block.

Jim
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Date:         Sat, 5 Sep 1992 09:44:09 -0500
From:         "Joe Amato" <jamato@UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
Subject:      RE: small library

Yeah, I second John S.'s sentiments re _Writing Space_.  I think it'd make
an excellent supplement to Wes's, uhm, library.  And while I'm at it, lemme
throw in my own hobbyhorse:  that, like it or no, both Derrida's and
Barthe's work have often focused on writing per se, and that a
representative sample is in order.  How bout _Writing Degree Zero_?

O, and to have Gertrude Stein's _Useful Knowledge_ waiting in ambush would
be just peachy....

Joe
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Date:         Wed, 9 Sep 1992 13:55:20 EDT
From:         mer <MROSE01@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Slime molds
              9 Sep 1992 12:44:53 -0500 from <sm51@PRISM.GATECH.EDU>

Stuart and Wes:

               Of course, one obvious referential relationship between
               slime molds and hypertext has to do with the fact
               that slime molds, such as the humongous one in the UP Michigan,
               SM's (hmm.*S*tuart *M*oulthrop, there's a lesson there!)
               is a self-organizing system, a rhizome if you will--
               or similar to a rhizome's structure in any event.
               And hypertexts have the potential for self-organization.
               Or for allowing(through simulations) thoughts to self-organize.
               Something that both you and I, Stuart, have written about.

               Stuart:  sounds like your friend was attempting to model
               stochastic processes with linear algabraic equations?
               Even Prigogine's been having a hard time with that one.

                                                             mer
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Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1992 08:53:12 --500
From:         SLATIN@UTXVM.BITNET
Subject:      Re: change (deja vu)

Funny, I logged on this morning with the intention of asking you to talk about
how change might be implemented productively down in this part of the world;
and I find the discussion moving rapidly in that direction anyway!  But I'll
pose the question:  if you were charged with seting up a structure that would
divide rhetoric & comp off from English, how would you do it?  How would you
define the missions of the respective units?  What kinds of evaluative
measures would you want to put in place?

John Slatin
UT Austin
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Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 16:04:00 EST
From:         00D0HENRIKSE@BSUVAX1.BITNET
Subject:      Re: EnfiLOG List; 2nd posting

Trent, I've tried sending you a personal message to be on your EnfiLog
list, but I'm not successful.  Therefore, I'm using the mail list.  The
quarterly sounds exactly what I need as I'm using Enfi in four classes
this semester.  It's a new environment for me and tips and suggestions
from others would really be useful.  Thus, my address is:

Donna Henriksen
3710 Brook Drive
Muncie, Indiana  47304

Thanks,

Donna Henriksen
00d0henrikse@bsu.leo
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Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 10:48:21 --500
From:         "David E. Schwalm" <IACDES@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Trent's address

 I have been trying to send a note to Trent about keeping me on the ENFI
 mailing list (but at the new address below). I am sending the message to
 twbatson@gallau and it keeps coming back. Trent, is that address correct? Am I
 missing something? Anyway, please keep me on the mailing list. Thanks.

 -- David E. Schwalm, Assoc. Provost for Academic Programs
 ___Arizona State University West
 ___4701 West Thunderbird Rd.
 ___Phoenix, AZ 85069-7100___(602) 543-4500
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Date:         Sat, 12 Sep 1992 10:44:12 -0500
From:         "Gail E. Hawisher" <hawisher@UIUC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: (Fwd: *C&CD*) Splitting comp

John--

I may have missed something of this newest of Texas controversies, and I
say that sympathetically not sarcastically.  I'm wondering, though, where
the called-for change was initiated.  Here at Illinois the departmental
structure is so strong that it's difficult for me to imagine how it could
be brought off.

Certainly our head would lobby to retain composition, and he is deservedly
respected throughout campus.  The move could come conceivably from either
our Dean and/or Vice Chancellor, and they would have to be deeply involved
in the process.  If it came from the Dean, the new unit would remain in
Arts and Sciences and probably have more of a chance for a research
emphasis (depending upon who headed it); if it came from the Vice
Chancellor, the unit would sit outside the College structure and, in all
likelihood, function primarily as a service unit.  Who has initiated the
split at Texas and where will the new unit sit?

Gail
________________
Gail E. Hawisher
Department of English
University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign
hawisher@uiuc.edu and 217-333-2989
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Date:         Wed, 9 Sep 1992 12:41:15 -0500
From:         sm51@PRISM.GATECH.EDU
Subject:      Texas

So John, will there be a national search for a Comp Director at Austin?
And how will that be handled if comp no longer belongs to English?

Stuart
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Date:         Sun, 6 Sep 1992 07:53:10 HST
From:         James Shimabukuro <JAMESS@UHUNIX.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Definition question for MBU

Re Rhoda Carroll's question about critical thinking

I'd agree that it is a response.  However, I wonder if we shouldn't invest it
with an active, generative dimension.  Instead of learning how to respond to
questions, problems, etc., it should perhaps include the ability to raise
significant questions or anomalies that are outside the paradigms we--the
teachers--have constructed.

Jim Shimabukuro
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Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 09:09:05 EDT
From:         mer <MROSE01@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject:      Re: (Fwd: *C&CD*) Entropy on botany bay (9)

Rob:

              "I got the Exothermic Reaction"

                         --A Motown hit of twenty years ago?

                                                               mer
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Date:         Sun, 6 Sep 1992 01:31:57 EDT
From:         Greg DiMedio <T270100@UNIVSCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Ice T and Murphy Brown

David:
Ice T feeds on the anger and resentment felt in the African-American
community.  By gaining authority through the commercial music industry
Ice T has found the most direct way to yell at and attack the
prejudiced powers that be.  Murphy Brown is creating another variant
in privileged, WASP culture, and Ice T wants to dismantle the system
that favors Murphy Brown.  It is naive, in my opinion, to believe that
Candice Bergen and Ice T have the same motives for their forms of
expression because both are commercial assets.

 - Greg DiMedio  T270100@UNIVSCVM.BITNET
                 University of South Carolina
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Original_To:  BITNET%"mbu-l@ttuvm1.bitnet"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Mon, 7 Sep 1992 10:46:00 EDT
From:         "Composition Digest (Robert Royar,
              Moderator)" <R0MILL01@ULKYVX.BITNET>
Subject:      (Fwd: *C&CD*) Mail congestion (1)

$undigest -s="Mail congestion (1)" [.new_news]cmpd6259.mss

Date:         Mon, 07 Sep 1992 05:54:06 EDT
From:         IN%"RobertRoyar@Delphi.com" Robert Royar (C&CD Moderator)
Message-Id:   <1992Sep07.055406.1.Grendel.Lair@Cratylus>
Subject:      Mail congestion (1)
Reply-to:     IN%"R0MILL01@ULKYVX.LOUISVILLE.EDU"  C&CD
Organization: Cratylus Educational Software

My guest account at the University of Louisville has been suffering Mail
Congestion recently since the system installed a new Vax 6400.  In fact I'm not
even sure the digests since Sat, 05 Sep 1992 (6.257) have gotten through.  I've
received no errors, but also, I've received only a few MBU-L messages.

I'm trying to track down the problem and have left mail for one of the systems
folks I know whose been very helpful in the past--although I'd imagine with
this major upgrade he's inundated with work now.

I send this message (from C&CD 6.259) to tell readers that if they did not
receive issues 6.256 - 6.258, that the messages are probably lost in the
electricity.  If you do not receive this message, then don't worry--what you
don't know about electricity can't shock you.

 -- Robert Royar (RobertRoyar@Delphi.com) New York Institute of Technology

------------------------------
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Date:         Sat, 12 Sep 1992 13:51:00 CDT
From:         Fred Kemp <YKFOK@TTACS.BITNET>
Subject:      change (deja vu)

I think John's reply to Nancy is a potent comment on what can
happen in these hallway battles:  nobody wins.  But it is equally
true that things cannot stay the same.  The "paradigm shift" that
Maxine reported in the early 1980s is now pressuring the flesh
and blood issues of committee power and tenure and privileges;
ideology is moving out of theory into practice, and people's
professional lives are more strongly affected than ever.  When
MBU started three years ago there was a lot of genial
commentary on "marginalization" and the difficulties and benefits
of living on the professional periphery.  The Lit group's once
monolithic power base is beginning to crack -- for all kinds of
theoretical, social, legislative, and pedagogical reasons -- but
nobody knows what's going to happen to the "English Department"
if the cracks become fragmentation.  What's happened at UT, if I
understand the issues, is simply a knee-jerk administrative
reaction to hot-house pressures accruing over a number of years.
I for one hope that Slatin and Kinneavy and others there can
devise a model for protecting comp without stripping it of its
academic legitimacy or its research mission.  Somehow, somewhere,
we've got to be seeing successful transitions to new kinds of
English departments.    Fred Kemp, Texas Tech
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Date:         Sat, 12 Sep 1992 17:41:29 EST
From:         Jim Porter <jporter@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: change (deja vu)
              12, 92 1:51 pm

>Somehow, somewhere,
>we've got to be seeing successful transitions to new kinds of
>English departments.    Fred Kemp, Texas Tech

That's hopeful--but I wonder if it will happen. If English resists
"transition" then it is bound to go the way of the
Classical Studies department.  (Which at one point was a powerful
humanities department--but hey where did it go?)  That is to say,
there may still be English departments (i.e., in the historical sense
of having an English and maybe American _literature_ emphasis)
at a few representative bastions of traditional learning
(the Ivy League, their imitators, small liberal arts
colleges)--but most of us will have other kinds of
arrangements: departments of literature and communication, or
cultural studies, or technical communication, or rhetoric and
composition, or literature and language, etc.  In fact,
some places have transformed into these kinds of departments--
in some cases keeping the title "English," in other cases not.

I believe that the transformation will happen--but whether or not
it happens under the banner of "English" is another matter.  I
think it highly likely that in 10 or 20 years the "Department
of English" will go the way of Classical Studies.  Not that what
the English Department does will disappear, but that its
functions will be distributed into different curricular units.
Some of us may end up in communication departments, others
in composition, some of us in instructional design, a few in
the technology school--and maybe more than a few in nonacademic
units.

Last point: economic realities like the recession are going to
push the Department of English hard in the next few years--to
either transform in directions that match universities' newly
emerging agendas, or risk losing resources, faculty lines, etc.
Deans and other administrators won't have the patience to
wait for leisurely transformation.


--------------------
Jim Porter
Purdue University
jporter@mace.cc.purdue.edu
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 10:17:54 CDT
From:         Eric Crump <C509379@MIZZOU1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: On-line collaborative lit?
              3 Sep 1992 13:33:17 EDT from <dsew@TROI.CC.ROCHESTER.EDU>

On Thu, 3 Sep 1992 13:33:17 EDT David Sewell, responding to Dickie, said:
>
>IRC as collaborative *literature*?  :-)
>
Sounds like a line that might be fun to chew on in an IRC session.
Anybody interested in doing such a thing tonight at 9 central on
channel #cw? I'll be there.

David went on to say:
>OK, I'll grant it's somewhere in the spectrum, if only in the lower
>frequencies (& what is it the Invisible Man says, "who knows but, in the
>lower frequencies, I speak for you"?).
>
And later Robert Royar bravely mentioned Hawthorne, Mehlville, Joyce
Dickens, and Milton in a paragraph about popular culture. Why not IRC,
too? As Robert said, all culture is somebody's popular culture. What
assumptions undergird standards that do not value IRC and other realtime
shenanigans? Should realtime flapdoodle be forever relegated to the
cultural and intellectual underground? or is there room (somewhere
in the house) to value it, give it some sort of status, and would
that be a good thing, or would civilization immediately crumble?

--Eric Crump
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Original_To:  BITNET%"mbu-l@ttuvm1.bitnet"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 21:31:00 EDT
From:         "Composition Digest (Robert Royar,
              Moderator)" <R0MILL01@ULKYVX.BITNET>
Subject:      (Fwd: *C&CD*) Splitting comp from eng (14)

Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 20:34:32 EDT
From:         IN%"RobertRoyar@Delphi.com" Robert Royar (C&CD Moderator)
Message-Id:   <1992Sep10.203432.2.Grendel.Lair@Cratylus>
Subject:      Splitting comp from eng (14)
Reply-to:     IN%"R0MILL01@ULKYVX.LOUISVILLE.EDU"  C&CD
Organization: Cratylus Educational Software

I suppose the creation of separate comp departments has its drawbacks, but
from my current (and past) positions I can't quite see them.  I think it
usually ends up costing the eng people more than it does the compers.  As
the lone comper in a world of engs (and I like the people) I have a dickens
of a time getting people to understand/accept what I thought I'd learned
and know I was taught (at Dr. Huot's current site).  One thing I've noticed
about some of the eng folks who embrace comp is that they still don't want
to get their hands dirty.

Another difficulty we face here is getting the ephemeral litry ideas into a
usable form for instruction and developing instruments that we can tune to
measure our success or lack thereof in implementing any new ideas.  Few eng
folks I've met have any training in classroom research methods or in
pedagogical design (even simple things such as how to design a structured
lesson plan--not really simple as the compers know). Joe C., D. Hall (I bet
he didn't realize it), and M. Rosner showed us in grad school how and why
such plans were important.  And us comp folks took courses from education
specialists (Marjorie Kaiser was one for me) who taught us the classroom
had to be our focus if the students were to focus on the text.  Maybe I'm
wrong--I've been there before--but the eng folks I've known have mostly
wanted to "enlighten" their students.  The more progressive seem to think
we can "empower" them.  And few I've met wish to talk about or investigate
method.

 -- Robert Royar (RobertRoyar@Delphi.com) New York Institute of Technology
    Do not search for the Truth; simply cease to cherish opinion
                                                                 Sengestan
                                                            Third Zen Sage

------------------------------
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Date:         Sat, 12 Sep 1992 13:26:00 CDT
From:         Fred Kemp <YKFOK@TTACS.BITNET>
Subject:      bliss on computers

Margaret, what you describe as happening with your lit colleague
on Interchange is something I have seen over and over with
synchronous written conversation:  disbelief before the fact
shifting to deep affection following the first experience.  If
the synchronous session is set up properly, without too much
technical buildup, etc., then the result is often dramatic.  I
don't know how many times I've been harangued about the
uselessness of ENFI and synchronous messaging BY PEOPLE WHO HAVE
NEVER TRIED IT, only to have the one or two of those people with
the courage to try it turn around completely after a single
session.  If there ever was a "try it, you'll like it" situation,
it's ENFI.  Fred Kemp, Texas Tech
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Original_To:  BITNET%"MBU-L@TTUVM1.BITNET"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 15:01:00 EST
From:         BURT@BRANDEIS.BITNET
Subject:      RE: Booklist

Add Corbett's Classical Rhetoric for the Modern Student to the list, too.
John B
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Via: uk.ac.southampton-institute; Fri, 11 Sep 1992 09:43:45 +0100
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 09:44:00 GMT
From:         Z_STAFF_CL@SOUTHAMPTON-INSTITUTE.AC.UK
Subject:      RE: (Fwd: *C&CD*) Entropy on botany bay (9)

Following Robert Royar's post  immaging having to pay the phone/fax/typing
bill to get all that information to its destination in usable form.

Carol L
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 14:16:00 CDT
From:         Fred Kemp <YKFOK@TTACS.BITNET>
Subject:      Listservs

Dickie's right about running listservs remotely, but I would add
that the first thing to do is contact your campus' IBM (if you
have one) and find out 1) if they access bitnet and 2) if they
have the listserv software.  An IBM rep once told me in a casual
conversation that many campuses have listserv software but nobody
knows about it and the mainframe jockeys don't automatically
spread the word.  Fred Kemp, TTU
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