HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: scsd1055@altair.selu.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: SO-CALLED... (ultra-sounds)
Date: 31 Jul 92 03:40:56 -0600
Organization: Southeastern Louisiana University

Maks writes ->

>The following comes from my "ABORTION PART2" on the CHRISTIA LIBRARY.
> [...]
>From the article.....
>ABORTION PART2                                 04/13/90
>...about line 480...
>    What about ultrasound? What does it do for the abortionist and the
>staff? What about the pictures?
>
>    McArthur Hill, MD, Denver, CO -  The technology of ultrasound has the
>ability to open a window into the womb. When a woman sees her own baby
>moving on the screen, it has a profound influence on her, and I believe
>this is the technology which should be used as much as possible.
>[...]
>
	Of course he would like to see it used as much as possible (see
my reply at end of letter).

>    Joseph Randall - [...]
>    The women that are having the abortions are NEVER allowed to look at
>the ultrasound. Because, even if they heard the heartbeat, many times they
>wouldn't have the abortion, and we didn't want that. No money in that.
>
	This is not a communist state.  Mr. Randall makes it sound like 
having an ultra-sound is illegal.  Answer this, if the woman wants an 
ultra-sound can she or can she not go to the local clinic or hospital and 
have one performed?  Of course she can... it is her right to do so if she
pleases! (Also, see my end reply reguarding where the real money is!)

>    John: How profitable is it? Is all money reported?
>...end of the related portion.....
> 
>If "the badly blurred image" is of no significance than why the results
>reported here?

	If you were to examine your sources, you would have your answer to 
your last question.  There is money in the abortion practice, there's no 
doubt, but there is also a lot of money generated in the ultra-sound business.
Your source (Dr. Hill) is in fact a businessman, and businessmen will be 
businessmen reguardless of the source of money.
	It is a fact that any doctor can perform an ultra-sound.  Believe it
or not all the doctor has to do is verify that he is a doctor and the machine
will be sent to him.  Upon recieving the ultra-sound machine all that 
remains for the doctor to do is read the operating instructions and Walla'....
he's in the money!   Remember, ultra-sounds require little or no training, 
and are not at all messy (again...my sister is a radiologist).
	Make no mistake...ultra-sounds are GOOD business!  At least that's 
what my sister says, who makes 40K a year doing them....sounds lucrative to
me!  Hey I may just buy one myself, and become rich! ;-)  Gee, I'm ready to
change my pro-choice stance for a couple of bucks ...Not!


Have a wondermous day!
Bill Plunkett
SCSD1055@altair.selu.edu
No one works for free...
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu (Dr Nancy's Sweetie)
Subject: Re: Psycho Witch Doctors
Organization: Glassboro State College
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 14:58:54 GMT


There has been some discussion of psychologists, psychiatrists, and other
mental health counsellors describing them as "witch doctors".

It is not my purpose to defend all people in the mental health industry, as
some of what gets said seems pretty far-out to me.  However, I think there is
a lot of irony in calling them "witch doctors", given the alternatives that
have been offered.

In common parlance, a "witch doctor" is the shaman of a tribe who tries to
make someone better by saying prayers over him and casting out the evil
spirits that have made him ill.  A "real doctor" uses scientific data to
diagnose conditions, prescribe medicine, and recommend exercises or other
therapy to cure illnesses.

Unless I'm mistaken, some of the Christians on this list have said that
someone with mental problems should be treated by "saying prayers over him
and casting out the evil spirits that have made him ill".

Hmmm...

 --

I am not saying that there is no such thing as demon possession:  Jesus casts
out demons at several places in the Gospels (eg, Luke 8:26-39).  However, not
all mental problems can be classed as demon possession, unless we suppose that
demons are repelled by medicines -- I know several people whose brains, for
one reason or another, don't have enough of the right juices.  In order for
them to get along, those juices need to be provided with drugs.

I AM saying that it is ridiculous to insist that ALL psychiatric problems are
demon possession, and that ALL "normal" counsellors are witch-doctors.  It is
ESPECIALLY ridiculous to talk about demons while saying that SOMEBODY ELSE is
a witch doctor.


Darren F Provine / kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu
"If I believed everything I read in this newsgroup, I'd be quite a confused
 individual." -- Jeffrey B. Zurschmeide
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Posted-Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 15:05:45 EDT
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Date:         Thu, 30 Jul 1992 15:05:45 EDT
From:         "Lauren L. Crawford" <crawford@BEN.DEV.UPENN.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Masturbation: Gift of God or Sin from the Devil?
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU
              Jul 30, 92 6:54 pm

There's an excellent book by John White that deals wisely and biblically
with all sorts of sex, including mastrubation.  It's called
"Eros Defiled"; it's wonderful.  I heartily recommend it.

--Lauren
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Date:         Sat, 25 Jul 1992 18:43:00 EDT
From:         Vicky <VCHAI@SMITH.BITNET>
Subject:      Songrette - submission

LET HIM HOLD YOUR HEART  (by Pete Carlson, Cindy Carlson)

You say you've come a long way, but you've got ways to go.
A picture of indifference, don't let your feelings show.
Now your past is catchin' up and tearin' you apart...

You say you've never given to gain what you can't lose,
A victim of your circumstance, you pay for what you choose.
Now you're trapped by things that never promised more than rain.

Look, look what you've been given in all that He's done,
You, fightin' all the battles that He's already won.
So, let me just remind you who you are, who you are,
And let Him, let Him hold your heart.


"For God *alone* my soul waits in *silence*; from Him comes my
  salvation."  Ps 62:1

"O God, you are my God, I *seek* You, my soul *thirst* for You..."
  Ps 63:1


Peace to you, in Christ,
 Vicky
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Date:         Thu, 30 Jul 1992 15:34:05 EDT
From:         JOE <pelaez@PILOT.NJIN.NET>
Subject:      Re: Masturbation: Gift of God or Sin from the Devil?
X-To:         Practical Christian Life <CHRISTIA@asuvm.inre.asu.edu>

  This is a hard topic for myself and others.
  I personally cannot decide what is right for every individual.
  I do feel what is in the person's heart is what matters.
  If a person does not masturbate for spiritual reasons then it
  is good for that person.  But the person should not decide that is
  the correct course for everyone.  A person may need that release
  once in a while.  I don't feel one should be consumed by any earthly
  desire.  I can not judge another for practicing masterbation.
  We must all practice self-control as Paul taught Timothy, in order
  to grow spiritually.  Self-control in all things of the flesh.
  I pray that my veiws help to serve God, in Jesus's name, Amen.
  With Christian love.

{~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~}
{ Joe	internet: pelaez@pilot.njin.net }
{_______________________________________}
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Date:         Wed, 22 Jul 1992 23:57:29 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Clinton's acceptance speech and Scriptural allusions

Renee:

"Where there is no vision the people perish" is perfectly acceptable.
What is NOT acceptable is the use of "New Covenant" as the name of
a political platform.  What is NOT acceptable is Clinton's usage of
1 Cor 2:9.  What the Bible says is this:  "No eye has seen, no ear has
heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love
him."  Clinton replaced "what God has prepared for those who love him"
with "what we can build."  He also prefaced his statement with "As it
says in the Scriptures..."  This leads the audience to believe that
God would be supportive of the entire statement, when in fact the opposite
is true.  (Remember the tower of Babel?)  In addition, the Bible verse
finishes with "but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit."  Clinton
discards the remainder of the verse, losing its real meaning, and twisting
it to imply that "we" can figure it out on our own.
   I strongly feel (big surprise :-) ) that it is highly inappropriate for
anyone, much less a public figure seeking to lead a nation, to use the
words of Scripture to support an idea that Scripture argues against.  For
a Rhodes scholar, this is a pretty inappropriate way to quote the Bible.
He should know better.
                           Love INC,
                                    ---Kerry
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu (Dr Nancy's Sweetie)
Subject: Re: Family Values and Arbitration
Organization: Glassboro State College
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 03:20:58 GMT


Somebody wrote that Hillary Clinton's support of legal intervention in child-
parent disputes was against "family values".  I responded by saying that this
was not necessarily true; perhaps Ms Clinton just believes that sometimes a
child may make a better decision than a parent, and that a judge should be
able to intervene.  (In fact, judges can already intervene.  The only thing
Ms Clinton is arguing for is that the children should be able to ask for such
intervention.)

As an extreme example, I offered the situation of a pregant 14-year-old girl
who wants to carry the child to term, but whose parents want the fetus
aborted.  In reply, Roger Phyall wrote something I could make no sense of.
However, he provided some clarification by e-mail, and I will reply to that.

His points are these:

 a) A 14-year-old girl has no right to get pregnant.
 b) Her parents do have the right to make her get an abortion.
 c) If we have parents who are good Christians and who are diligent, we won't
    need court intervention.
 d) A parent gets final say in all decisions for young children, regardless
    of the issue.

The first is not strictly relevant; several months ago there was a pregnant
14-year-old in Ireland who was raped by a family friend.

The third is not true; there is no promise in Scripture that devoted Christian
parents will never sin.  Devoted Christian parents can still make serious
mistakes.

The second and fourth I do not agree with.  A parent has no right to abuse a
child; and nobody has any right to force a person into having an abortion.
God gives parents a lot of responsibility, but I do not believe he gives them
unlimited freedom to do whatever they want.

Are there any other people who agree that parents have the right to force
teenage girls to have abortions?

Some Christians oppose medical care; do they have the right to let their
children die of treatable illnesses/injuries?


Darren F Provine / kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu
"Fathers, do not exasperate your children; instead, bring them up in the
 training and instruction of the Lord." -- St Paul
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Date:         Thu, 30 Jul 1992 14:28:14 CDT
From:         Yvette Traylor <YST1@DCCCDBIT.BITNET>
Subject:      Multiple Personalities vs Demon Possession

Could someone tell me the difference between Multiple Pesonalities and
Demon Possession?

************************************************************************
*  Yvette Traylor     "We are His people and the sheep of his pasture."*
*  Dallas County Community College District             Psalm 100:3    *
*  Computer Programmer/Analyst                                         *
************************************************************************
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Date:         Thu, 30 Jul 1992 14:24:06 CDT
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Reply to Yvette on mult. personalities

Dear Yvette ;

Please forgive my frankness, but I view the individual you mentioned as
being harrassed directly by demonic influences ... demons, that is.

I have seen demonic activity directly myself, and your friend needs Christian
counselling and prayer ... avoiding traditional psychotherapy, I hope.
A great deal ... I did not say all ... of traditional psychotherapy is
guess work at best and borders on witchdoctoring at worst.


Jesse Carnes
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Date:         Thu, 30 Jul 1992 12:22:18 PST
From:         "Anthony Hayes, Honors Programs" <ANTHONY@HUP.UCLA.EDU>
Subject:      The human spirit

I have been concerned that a lot of us in the list, myself
included, miss the point.  I have been somewhat dissappointed with
the list in that there is not much life here.  Many Christians,
I am afraid, are too concerned with teachings and doctrines and
neglect the life inside.  This is not to say that doctrines are
unimportant, yet without the inner aspect of life and experience of
Christ, teachings are dead letter.  "...we serve in newness of
spirit, not in oldness of letter." (Rom. 7:6)

A major reason that many Christians fall short in this matter of life
is that they don't realize that they have a human spirit.  I Thes.
5:23 says, "...may your spirit, soul, and body be preserved
complete."  The apostle Paul reveals to us here that we have three
parts:  Outwardly we have a body dealing with the physical
realm, inwardly our soul deals with the psychological realm (mind,
emotion, will), and even deeper we have a human spirit that deals
with the spiritual realm.

When we were saved, God came into our spirit and is now indwelling
us (Rom. 8:10-11).  Since He is the life-giving Spirit (1 Cor 15:45),
who is in and even one with our spirit (1 Cor 6:17), it follows that
the true way to worship Him is in our spirit (John 4:24).  It is in
our spirit that we can contact and enjoy Him, experiencing Him as the
bountiful supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ (Phil. 1:19).

Present day issues such as abortion, safe-sex, divorce, etc., as well
as doctrinal matters such as the Trinity, water baptism, where we go
when we die, etc., are important but secondary.  Discussing these
issues usually leaves us in the realm of the mind and misses the
point.  The point is our spirit!  We need to turn away from such
"vain talking" (1 Tim. 1:6) and exercise our spirit!  There are, of
course, many ways to do this (e.g. praying, singing, reading the
Bible), but the easiest way that I have found is calling upon the
name on the Lord.  "...[the] Lord is rich to all who call upon Him."
(Rom. 10:12).  Saints are "those who call upon the name of our Lord
Jesus Christ in every place." (1 Cor 1:2). It's easy, it's fast, and
it works!  Oh Lord Jesus!  Try it and turn back to the source of our
Christian life: our spirit!


Anthony R. Hayes, Student Affairs Assistant II
UCLA Honors Programs
A-311 Murphy Hall
405 Hilgard Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90024-1414
(310) 206-5207
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: mueller@owlnet.rice.edu (Ernest Conrad Mueller)
Subject: More Books
Keywords: CS Lewis
Organization: Rice University
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 18:29:09 GMT

I liked C.S. Lewis' Space Trilogy.  I thought the third was worse than the
first two because its style was so much different, and it was very
obscure in places.  Maybe a solid grounding in *all* the Arthurian legends
would have helped, but it was often confusing.  The whole series was good,
however.

In the same vein, Lewis' "The Great Divorce" is an excellent allegorical
piece of Christian fiction.  It provides great insight into sin, salvation,
and the afterlife.  (No, it's not about divorce.)  The plot is that a busful
of people are on a "field trip" from Hell to Heaven.  Anyone who wants to
stay can.  But few do.  A brilliant piece of writing.

And of course, there is probably little new to say about his "The Screwtape 
Letters,"  one of the finest Christian works of fiction, and one of the most 
thought-provoking, in existance.  

For those who do not mind excursions outside the purely Christian realm of
fiction, Lewis writes "Till We Have Faces," a retelling of the myth of 
Cupid and Psyche, at length.  This is one of the novels that gives me my
immense respect for Lewis as not only a Christian but a brilliant and 
insightful author.  The depth to which he moves into the myth, and the
dramatic point of view from which he tells it, is worthy of any 
intellectual bookshelf.

On the 1-10 scale: (IMHO)

Space Trilogy :
Out of the Silent Planet - 8
Perelandra - 8
That Hideous Strength - 6

The Great Divorce - 8

Screwtape Letters - 9
 
Till We Have Faces - 8

Ernest Mueller
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Original_cc:  HUTTER
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 28 Jul 1992 15:34:00 N
From:         Wolfgang Hutter <HUTTER@DULRUU51.BITNET>
Subject:      Setting NOMAIL

Hi all!

I just wanted to say that I'll be setting NOMAIL this evening (CET) for
about three weeks. My wife and I will be going on a mission
trip/vacation to Jamaica. I hope you will be blessing each other and the
list will be a blessing to me again when I return. - I won't blame you
for praying for us... ;-)

Shalom,

Wolfgang <><
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Date:         Tue, 28 Jul 1992 08:44:01 EST
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject: Re: Spiritual leadership in the home
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU
              Jul 27, 92 3:55 pm

About leadership in the home..

There is a saying about something with two heads - its a monster!..

God designed things to have one head!.. Literally...

Its the same as a vision.. If a house, or a body, or a church has two visions
then it becomes DI-VISION..



---------------------+-------------+-----------------------------------------
Ian Williams         |    _--_|\   |      Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems       |   /      \  |	  Phone	  : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia  |   \_.--*_/  |
                     |         v   |
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Date:         Tue, 28 Jul 1992 09:00:00 +1000
From:         Ken Diefenbach <DIEFENBAK@TOPAZ.UCQ.EDU.AU>
Subject:      Prayer Request / Rejoicing
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU

It's a very hard thing to work out when to ask for prayer and when to rejoice
with what you have. What I have is a loving affectionate nearly-5-year-old
who has most of his known world wrapped around has little fingers. What I also
found out last week was that a year ago, while undergoing tests at the local
spastic centre he tested as having an IQ of 47. Population mean 100, standard
deviation 16. Dad hsn't had to do stats for years, figured maybe bottom 5 % of
population. (As a side, dad had always been smug about testing in top 1%).

Then I got to work and borrowed someone's normal distribution tables. _Bottom
_0.05%_ of population. My world fell apart for a day or so as I struggled with
it. I rang a friend who was our minister here three years ago but has moved on
to another denomination following the call of God. Colin and others were praying
for me, and I felt the weight lift and my spirit soar for no reason I could
find. And I'm the sort who likes reasons.

So thanks to God for my charming second son. And I'm sure that God has special
things prepared for him. I believe God will give Lyn and I the encouragement and
faith needed to see this one through.

I should add that Kyle has made solid but not spectacular progress since those
tests a year ago. Praise God!

Regards
Ken Diefenbach (who is probably still as mixed up about the whole thing as the
tone of the message is, but I no longer am drowning in sorrow and self-pity)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu (Dust In The Wind)
Subject: "I only cursed your group, not you personally"
Organization: Glassboro State College
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 04:45:12 GMT


Robert Weiss, commenting on direct personal comments, writes this:

> The key difference here is that while many of the comments made may have
> been taken by you as offensive, they were not directed or written or
> addressed specifically *to* *you*.  [...]  You would be hard pressed to find
> a post written by Marty (or Kerry for that matter) in which a person on the
> list is their target.

So what?

If I said "Pope Leo XIII was a Roman Catholic; he believed in the torture and
execution of Protestants", equating "Roman Catholic" with horrible evil, I
suspect that the RC participants on Christia would be most upset -- even if I
didn't mention any by name.

Suppose I said "Roman Catholics are devil-worshipping pagan apostates", and
then told an offended reader "I didn't mention you personally".  Would you
consider that an adequate apology?

If an atheist posted saying "Jimmy Swaggart is a Christian; he is a dishonest
lying bozo who's only trying to manipulate the fears of the ignorant", but
did not mention any of us by name, I suspect that most of us would be
irritated anyway.

In general, saying something like "People in Group X are foolish bozos" in the
presence of somebody from Group X is disrespectful and inexcusable, regardless
of whether you specifically name the person(s) present.

Saying that Jesse Jackson "supports the slaughter of innocent unborn babies"
is insulting to anyone who agrees with Rev Jackson about legal bans on
abortion.  Whether Mr Helgesen mentioned any of those people by name is
irrelevant.


Darren F Provine / kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu
"The death sentence is a necessary and efficacious means for the Church to
 attain its ends when rebels against it disturb the ecclesiastical unity,
 especially obstinate heretics who cannot be restrainted by other penalty 
 from continuing to disturb ecclesiastical order."
                                  -- Pope Leo XIII
                                     Preface for Vol 2, Books of Canon Law 
                                     by M. de Lucas, S.J. (Rome 1901)

(But he didn't mean any of us, personally.  Only generic rabble-rousers should
 be executed, not any particular individual rabble-rouser.)
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