HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Subject: Re: The need for an assembler (was: Favorite CPU)
Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 10:30:32 GMT

In article <id.303T.Z2C@ferranti.com> peter@ferranti.com (peter da silva) writes:
>In article <1992Sep8.094005.15877@news.columbia.edu> lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) writes:
>> You really don't know what you're talking about here :-).
>
>I do. Been There. Done that. No smiley.
>
>> The registers
>> aren't juggled hardly at all,
>
>All them "MOV ES,whatever" instructions and segment prefixes are all in my mind.

Yes, only *your* mind.

>
>> Who cares if code written for one O/S does/does not run on another one.
>
>I do.

It isn't important if you individually do or not; the rhetorical question
was to the vast audience, not your clique.

>
>> When
>> more than a few egocentric usenet types are using your code, then you can
>> criticize what goes on.
>
>They are.

Get some bean counters to prove you wrong.

>
>> In the mean time, most of these machines are *not*
>> being used for what you imaginge they are used for.
>
>Oh, I think I have a good idea of what they're used for. Running a single
>critical application that boots under DOS and then boots DOS out until it
>needs to do soem file I/O.

Thank you for rendering your above statement nil, and thus no need for bean
counters.

>
>> >And I suspect that it will be a lot easier to get Ckermit running under
>> >OS/2 instead of in the DOS compatibility box than to get your assembly
>> >language version that includes (and probably interacts intimitely with)
>> >its own device driver.
>
>> In a word, yes.  Working well? NO!  If you know what you're doing, you
>> can talk to the OS/2 driver in ways that C generally is ignorant of.
>
>Yes, OS/2 is a bit of a mess internally. Typical IBM design.

No, it's purely a Microsoft design.  IBM broke with Microsoft and has 
attempted to salvage their investment.  Some of the current restrictions
such as 386 mode engrained into it are purely against IBM's own desires.  It's
one of the many reasons they "divorced" Microsoft.

>
>> However, under IBM's OS/2 v2.0, Kermit seems to run fine, although it sucks
>> under windows.  (In fact *everything* sucks under windows :-(.)
>
>Yes, Windows is a bit of a dancing bear. But I'm still amazed it dances at all.
>-- 
>Peter da Silva                                               `-_-'
>Ferranti Intl. Ctls. Corp.                                    'U` 
>Sugar Land, TX  77487-5012
>+1 713 274 5180                                   Har du kramat din varg idag?

cjl
From: smckinty@sunicnc.France.Sun.COM (Steve McKinty - Sun ICNC)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Writing a super-fast PDP-8 emulator.
Date: 10 Sep 1992 08:05:37 GMT
Organization: SunConnect
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: hardy.france.sun.com

In article <1992Sep9.211225.25744@news.uiowa.edu>, jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879) writes:
> From article <1992Sep9.200035.24633@news.uiowa.edu>,
> by dsiebert@icaen.uiowa.edu (Doug Siebert):
> > 
> > Heh!  You guys have finally succeeded where cjl failed many times
> > -- you have provided a concrete example of a case where assembly will
> > always produce more efficient code than C...
> 
> Try FORTRAN 66, then.  That's right, FORTRAN.  That's because FORTRAN
> has a fossil in it called the assigned GOTO, a lovely bit that lets you
> assign a label to an integer variable then do an indirect GOTO off that
> integer.  Here's the code:
> 
> C
> C The following array is used to decode instructions
> C
> 	INTEGER I(4096)
> C
> C The following data structures represent the machine state
> C
> 	INTEGER M(4096)
> 	INTEGER PC,AC
> C
> C The main program begins here by setting up the instruction decoding array
> C
> 	ASSIGN 90000 TO I(0)
> 	ASSIGN 90001 TO I(1)
> 	ASSIGN 90002 TO I(2)
> 		...
> 	ASSIGN 97777 TO I(4095)
> C
> C Now, we initialize memory, the program counter, and all that
> C
> 		...
> C
> C Now, we fetch and decode the first instruction
> C
> 	GOTO M(PC)

I haven't done much FORTRAN recently, but doesn't it support a computed
goto, along the lines of
      GOTO PC IN 10,20,30,40,50,60 etc., or some similar syntax?



As to C/Assembler etc., it will depend on your architecture. A VAX has a
CASE instruction builtin to its machine code, so something like a

 switch (i) {
    case 1:
etc
    case 4096:
 };

will be coded as a CASEW instruction, which is essentially a jump table.
(Who needs these RISC chips...! :-) )

Of course, if you have the right type of VAX you can just set the 'PDP'
bit, but that's no fun...

Steve
Xref: sparky alt.folklore.computers:13609 comp.unix.misc:3512
From: betsys@cs.umb.edu (Elizabeth Schwartz)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.unix.misc
Subject: Re: The need for an assembler (was: Favorite CPU)
Date: 4 Sep 92 21:15:49 GMT
	umbia.edu>
	<id.HLVS.5DJ@ferranti.com><1992Sep3.090347.21766@news.columbia.edu>
	<ALANB.92Sep3153241@tornado.sdl.mdcbbs.com>
Organization: University of Massachusetts at Boston

In article <ALANB.92Sep3153241@tornado.sdl.mdcbbs.com> alanb@sdl.mdcbbs.com (Alan Braggins) writes:

>Hmm, I guess I must be imagining most of this Fortran I have to deal with...
>actually, most of it was written after C existed, but the statement above
>is clearly incorrect.

A company I worked for recently (in the last three years) ported a
HUGE IBM MVS application, written in Fortran IV and PL/1, over to
VAX/VMS. We had to change *exactly one line* in the Fortran; a
programmer had made a machine-specific instruction about MAXINT.
  Worked perfectly.
  The hard part was getting the MVS machine to write a VMS tape :-)
  (we did)

--
System Administrator                  Internet: betsys@cs.umb.edu
MACS Dept, UMass/Boston               BITNET:ESCHWARTZ%UMBSKY.DNET@NS.UMB.EDU
100 Morrissy Blvd                     Staccato signals
Boston, MA 02125-3393                      of constant information....
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: The need for an assem
Organization: Taronga Park BBS
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 13:03:21 GMT

In article <1992Sep5.042645.12630@news.columbia.edu> lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) writes:
>to be read repeatedly.  Eventually, machines grew to have enough memory
>capability to just tokenize and store.  Yet, today's cheap languages don't
>even try, and the goal is single-pass wimpitude.

What on earth are you talking about? Apart from Pascal (never intended to
be a production language) I can't think of a single modern language that
has one-pass compilation as a goal. have you *used* any modern language
other than Pascal?
-- 
                                                                `-_-'
                         Have you hugged your wolf today?        'U`

Peter da Silva, Taronga Park BBS, Houston, TX  +1 713 568 0480/1032
From: ldr@merrymeeting.mv.com (Lee D. Rothstein)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Who invented the digital computer
Distribution: world
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 92 11:12:54 GMT
Organization: VeriTech; IEEE Computer Society, NH
Reply-To: ldr@merrymeeting.mv.com


In article <1992Sep8.025754.18803@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz> ecmtwhk@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz writes:

 > sunthej@alleg.edu (Jake Blues) writes:

 > >       Hello all.  I remember reading that there was some dispute as to  
 > >who invented the digital computer, and that a court case was ongoing that  
 > >could have wide-reaching consequences to the industry.  Does anyone have  
 > >any more info on that?  Has the court case been resolved?  Who won?

 > Konrad Zuse invented the first freely programmable digital computer.
 > I'm unaware of a court case; maybe you think of the integrated
 > circuit?  I dimly remember something there...

 > Thomas Koenig, ecmtwhk@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz, ib09@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de
 > The joy of engineering is to find a straight line on a double logarithmic
 > diagram.

I think what is being referenced is the law suit of Gilbert Hyatt
claiming that he invented the microprocessor.  Hyatt won the
suit, but most large microprocessor vendors have vowed to fight
paying back royalties.

  /-----------------------------------------------------------\
 /Lee D. Rothstein                                 603-424-2900\
/ VeriTech: IT verification & leadership      Fax: 603-424-8549 \
\ 7 Merrymeeting Drive           Email: ldr@merrymeeting.mv.com /
 \Merrimack, NH 03054-2934            IEEE Computer Society, NH/
  \-----------------------------------------------------------/
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: mjg51721@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Michael James Gebis)
Subject: The third variable.
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 21:53:13 GMT

Alright....the first variable is foo, and the second variable is bar.  What
is the third?  Is is sna -->sna foo bar, or is it toe -->toe foo bar?  Is
it something else?  Does anyone have any other creative variable names?

Mike Gebis  m-gebis@uiuc.edu

Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Better dead than IBM
Organization: Taronga Park BBS
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 01:10:23 GMT

In article <715247949.F00001@quattro.stgt.sub.org> Volker.Kaechele@quattro.stgt.sub.org (Volker Kaechele) writes:
>I've Been Moved (Moving seems to be a hobby within IBM departments)

I worked for IBM once. A summer job, in high school, in the mail room.

I was only there two months and they *still* managed to move the mail room.
-- 
                                                                `-_-'
                         Have you hugged your wolf today?        'U`

Peter da Silva, Taronga Park BBS, Houston, TX  +1 713 568 0480/1032
From: aki@cruzio.santa-cruz.ca.us
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Hacking induced strange dreams...
Keywords: .
Date: 4 Sep 92 14:05:12 GMT
Reply-To: aki@cruzio.santa-cruz.ca.us


I swear I'll never read a data sheet before going to bed.  I was
dreaming all night about kicking bits in the 387 status word to
produce FPU exceptions (literally walking into the FPU status word),
and about feeding prime numbers to the FPU and watch them become
denormals.  God,  my wife close to killed me for that.

Aki.
-- 
/  Phone: 408-662 9664   Fax: 662 9676  |  "Aki" pronounced: Ah-Key. I know  \ 
\  125 Searidge Ct #D, Aptos, CA 95003  |  what I'm doing most of the time.  /
Xref: sparky alt.folklore.computers:13779 comp.sys.sun.hardware:4294 comp.sys.sun.misc:4144 comp.unix.solaris:205
From: dominic@natcorp.ox.ac.uk (Dominic Dunlop)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.sun.hardware,comp.sys.sun.misc,comp.unix.solaris
Subject: Re: Adding to a TAR tape
Date: 9 Sep 92 08:38:42 GMT
Organization: British National Corpus, Oxford University, GB
Originator: dominic@onions.natcorp.ox.ac.uk

> In article <1992Sep8.154726.18675@utdallas.edu> karches@utdallas.edu
(Tom Karches) writes:
> >Adding files to existing tar files is only possible on a 9 track tape
> >drive. The reason is that other tape drives can not accurately position
> >the write head to the exact spot on the tape where the additional files
> >would be appended.

Close.

Dredging back in my memory, unless the target device is capable of
supporting a blocked interface (the sort you put filesystems on),
you're out of luck.  There are two (512 byte) blocks full of nulls at
the end of a tar archive, indicating end-of-archive.  (See also
tar(5).)  If you want to extend the archive, you've got to update the
contents of those two blocks.  Only block-structured devices (/dev/mt8
and so on) are capable of doing updates in place, so you're out of
luck on devives like QIC and Exabyte tapes which don't have a blocked
interface.

Putting a toe into the waters of alt.folklore.computers, the first
time I encountered this issue was on Zilog System 8000 computers,
which had a 20 meg quarter-inch cartridge with a non-standard format.
(Well, there were no standards.)  Like a half-inch tape drive, it
offered both blocked and raw interfaces.  Boy, was it fun to create
and use a filesystem on a tape drive.  (Not recommended for the
impatient.)  It's not surprising that blocked interfaces to tape
devices went out of style.
-- 
Dominic Dunlop
From: dick.zeitlin%acc1bbs@ssr.com (Dick Zeitlin) 
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: The need for an assem
Date: 5 Sep 92 19:49:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Advanced Computer Concepts BBS, New Rochelle, NY 914-654-1981
Reply-To: dick.zeitlin%acc1bbs@ssr.com (Dick Zeitlin) 

CL> .Knowing the machine-level code of an architecture and occasionally dealing
  > .with it is not the same thing at all as writing in machine language, as
  > .was typically done in the '50's, where sometimes the attitude was that
  > .a utility to merely state what you could in machine language would be
  > .considered a waste of valuable machine time :-).

Strange...  I was doing assembler in the '50s, and never ran into that
attitude.  We all considered SOAP, which took away some of the drudgery,
a step forward.  And used higher level languages as soon as possible,
and as much as possible.

Then again, we were interested in productivity; not "purity" of the
code.

        D/

 * OLX 2.2 * Dick.Zeitlin%acc1bbs@ssr.com
                                    
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.unix.misc
From: st1ns@rosie.uh.edu (Ault, Russell W.)
Subject: Re: Thoughts
Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1992 02:57:00 GMT

In article <1992Sep15.230105.21996@cbnewsc.cb.att.com>, res@cbnewsc.cb.att.com (Rich Strebendt) writes...
>In article <u734120.716281450@bruny>, u734120@bruny.cc.utas.edu.au (John Lamp) writes:
>> dos@major.panix.com (Dave O'Shea) writes:
>> 
>> >peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes:
>> 
>> >> Hibberts Law #14:
>> >> 
>> >> 	When two technologies are competing for the marketplace,
>> >> 	the inferior one always succeeds.
>> >> 
>> 
>> >That would explain MS windows, wouldn't it? :)
>> 
>> And VHS winning over Beta ;->
> 
>Actually, I think that the VHS/Beta contest is an example of the rule
>that the best marketed/advertized/promoted technology will win,
>irrespective of technical merit.  This rule may then lead to the
>consequence noted in Law #14, assuming that a technically strong
>company is likely to be weak in marketing.
>

Actually, I suspect that the success of VHS over Beta has more to do with the
vagaries of licensing than technical merit or advertising.  Sony just wanted
to keep too high of a price on the rights, while the VHS tech could be had
with less trouble and more support for less money.  There was, therefor, an
economic advantage for VHS.  At least, there was in the US market.  I had a
long conversation about it with a JVC exec back in the late '70s.  At the time, 
a lot of consumers were buying Beta for the better picture quality it offered,
but a lot more were buying VHS because it was cheaper...largely due to being 
the format in which the greatest amount of competition existed.  Still, no one
expected the Beta format to die out as completely as it has.  


If it's green, it's Biology.
If it stinks, it's Chemistry.
If it doesn't work, it's Physics.
If it stinks and it doesn't work, it's Poli Sci.
If it's green and it stinks, it's Business Admin.
If it's green and doesn't work, it's Economics.
If it's green, stinks, and doesn't work, it's a Federally Funded Program.
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.unix.misc
From: peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: The need for an assembler (was: Favorite CPU)
Organization: Taronga Park BBS
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 12:49:47 GMT

In article <9209040148.04@rmkhome.UUCP> rmk@rmkhome.UUCP (Rick Kelly) writes:
>>> Within the world of Kermit, we have frustrating cases of even small programs
>>> that need worlds of conditionals to satisfy the bizarre variations floating
>>> around the industry.

>>Within the world of Kermit the latest release I've tried still runs on Xenix-
>>286 (System III Xenix, not SCO), System V on the 386, System V on the 68000,
>>and on the Sparc. I would take some convincing that this would be possible
>>in any other language that's reasonably widely available, except maybe Fortran.

>Kermit runs on everything.

There is an implementation of kermet for just about everything. That's not the
same thing as "the same source compiles and runs without change".
-- 
                                                                `-_-'
                         Have you hugged your wolf today?        'U`

Peter da Silva, Taronga Park BBS, Houston, TX  +1 713 568 0480/1032
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.unix.misc
From: fetrow@biostat.washington.edu (David Fetrow)
Subject: Re: The need for an assembler (was: Favorite CPU)
Organization: Biostatistics, School of Public Health, Univ. of Wash.
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 06:05:05 GMT

In article <id.VZ2T.XJA@ferranti.com> peter@ferranti.com (peter da silva) writes:
>
>I don't believe that. My experience is that assembly is heavily overutilised
>in the real world. There may be a few cases where a HLL is used where assembly
>could do the job better... even better enough to justify making the resulting
>software nonportable... but they're way overshadowed by all the cases where
>some hairy-chested hacker has used assembly simply because it's cool.

 Ah, but in some of our experiences it really is underutilized. A little
assembly in the tight inner loop can make quite a difference in certain
situations and in academia its rather rare to see it used.

 ...and of course, there's always the joy of finding out your new $$$$
compiler runs some important piece of code 2X slower than Gnu C but the
free-with-the-system compiler is 2X faster than that! *SIGH*

-- 
 - dave fetrow-					fetrow@biostat.washington.edu

 "Never underestimate the ability of large potential profits to
  make technically inferior technology into a workable standard."
Xref: sparky alt.folklore.computers:13703 rec.sport.football.pro:15758
From: amconn01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,rec.sport.football.pro
Subject: Football Parity Error
Date: 7 Sep 92 13:32:16 GMT
Organization: University of Louisville

Lately I've had to deal with memory parity errors on MSDOS systems. Yesterday,
after spending some time swapping SIMMs and attempting to track down an error
in a recalcitrant system, I went home and turned on the TV to watch the
Giants-49ers game. Around 1635 EDT, in the upper left corner of the screen,
there appeared for a few seconds the usual memory parity error message:

Memory parity interrupt at <address>.
Type (S)hut off NMI, (R)eboot, other keys to continue.

Was I hallucinating? Did anyone else see this? What does it mean? Help me!

Connor/Castigat ridendo mores
From: hsu@pix.com (Dagwood Splits the Atom)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: The third variable.
Date: 12 Sep 92 20:47:53 GMT
Organization: Pix -- The company with no adult supervision.

In article <aldavi01.716324160@starbase.spd.louisville.edu> aldavi01@starbase.spd.louisville.edu (Arlie Davis) writes:
>In <rw.716255281@donner> rw@donner.Rational.COM (Bob Weissman) writes:
>[... foo ... bar ...]
>> I've always heard "foo, bar, bletch, and mumble".
>Wrong.  The spectrum goes foo, bar, bang, eek (or "eek!" if your language
>will allow the ! (most won't (sniff))), and THEN mumble.

Hmmm, I'd always heard "foo, bar, baz, bang...".

I don't have any idea how I know that quux is pronounced gucks.

-dave

-- 
Dave Hsu                           <hsu@pix.com> -or- <hsu@eng.umd.edu>
Caffeine and Salsa Czar	          "Technology is like fish -- the longer they
Pix Technologies Corporation       stay on the shelf, the less desirable they
Have nerds, will telnet.           become."    - Andy Heller
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: JONESD@kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu (David Jones)
Subject: Re: Sneakers
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 02:30:33 GMT

In artile <BuJBJ0.MsL@world.std.com>, kkirksey@world.std.com (Ken B Kirksey) writes:
>Just saw Sneakers last night and I think I caught an anachronism, but I
>could be wrong. (Wouldn't be the first time).  At the beginning of the
>movie, two characters are hacking on what looks like a VT-100.  Can
>anyone confirm if I'm right on this point?  Anyway, this scene is taking
>place in 1969, and I thought the VT-100 wasn't introduced until the early
>seventies.  Or am I completely off base.
>

My VT100 User Guide says (on back of the title page) that the 1st edition
was published August 1978.  I presume that the first VT100s were produced
around that time.



David L. Jones               |      Phone:    (614) 292-6929
Ohio State Unviversity       |      Internet:
1971 Neil Ave. Rm. 406       |               jonesd@kcgl1.eng.ohio-state.edu
Columbus, OH 43210           |               jones-d@eng.ohio-state.edu

Disclaimer: A repudiation of a claim.
Xref: sparky alt.folklore.computers:13630 comp.lang.c:13257
From: ahern@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Sean Ahern)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.lang.c
Subject: Re: bogosort revisited (with source)
Date: 5 Sep 92 07:50:52 GMT
Organization: Purdue University

In <23629@alice.att.com> ark@alice.att.com (Andrew Koenig) writes:

>In article <1992Sep2.175607.23225@grebyn.com> richk@grebyn.com (Richard Krehbiel) writes:

>> In alt.folklore.computers, there has been a discussion of the worst
>> possible sorting algorithm, which has been called "bogosort".

>> My interpretation of the algorithm is this: Exchange two randomly
>> chosen elements of the array to be sorted.  Check to see if the array
>> is in order.  Iterate until done.

>It is possible to do ***much*** worse than that.

For example, rather than randomly switching only *two* elements before checking
for sortedness (is that a word?), randomize the *entire array*, O(n) time or
worse.  This is the equivalent of throwing a deck of cards in the air,
collecting them, and checking to see if they are in order.  If they
aren't, throw them in the air again.  I have heard time bounds of O(2^n*n!)
which is MUCH MUCH worse than O(n!).
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: aldavi01@vulcan.spd.louisville.edu (Arlie Davis)
Subject: Re: You know when you're hacking too long when...
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 21:27:15 GMT
Organization: University of Louisville

In <1992Sep13.170603.24419@tc.cornell.edu> mdw@theory.TC.Cornell.EDU (Matt Welsh) writes:

> I've done something similar. I find that whenever I'm looking for something
> at home or in my office, and simply can't find it, my first impulse is
> to

> % grep office shoes

Wow!!  You must have HUGE SHOES!!!

> Too much report with UNIX. -grin

Grin, indeed.  :)

-- 
lrwx------   1 aldavi01 emacsstu       9 Jun  6 12:43 .signature -> /dev/null
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA