From: thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi
Subject: Re: Happy end for the ESTONIAN question (Was: Est
Organization: University of Helsinki
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 11:40:34 GMT

In article <1992Dec20.010014.18712@husc3.harvard.edu>, verbit@coolidge.harvard.
edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky) writes:
> In article <1992Dec19.131827.1@cc.helsinki.fi> thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi writes:
>>In article <1992Dec15.182203.18540@husc3.harvard.edu>, verbit@birkhoff.
>>harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky) writes:
> 
> 
> 
>>WHO is a militant nationalist in Estonia? What does he/she do?
> 
> 
> 	This is an easy question. I know zillion cases
> 	when people were assaulted in Estonia by young ---

------       <some Verbitsky deleted>

> 	Unexpectedly, about 20 Estonian youths were
> 	running on them from the hill and beaten
> 	all of them without a word in explanation.

----------   <ditto>
> 
> 	Are you content, Tapani?



I am not content with violence. And especially not with your attitude
to generalize kids' behaviour. Of course, I could tell you several
cases about how kids (and I) were beaten in Finland because they were from
another street, another village, another town, were members of different
classes, spoke another language, were gipsies/non-gipsies. One could prove 
anything with that kind of "material". If that's your level, you can discuss 
your kid stuff alone.


I wanted to discuss adult politics. Kids are terrible everywhere.
Read The Lord of the flies and be convinced of that.
 
 
>>Empty accusations. I see that you fear such a scenario. But do not
>>mix up your prejudices and reality! I have never heard the words
>>"not ethnically clean" in Estonia.
> 
> 	You mean, that they don't speak English? I'm sure
> 	there is Estonian equivalent - something like
> 	"colonialist-free". Ask Tanel.

Sorry, that kind of language is not usual in Estonian television
or in Estonian papers (I have studied numerous Estonian papers
because I am intrerested in the emerging new press). 

Of course, many Estonian youngsters do not like Russians. They
accuse them of occupation (which even democratic Russia continues)
and preventing Estonia to join the Nordic countries and hindering
it's development. This are to most common accusations "against
Russians" one hears in Estonia. 


 
>>Facts: when the Europe suffers from neo-nazis and xenophobia,
>>Estonia is surprisingly clean from such phenomena. At least,
>>still is. I am deeply pessimistic in this respect: there
>>will be some skinhead activism in Estonia (as in many surrounding
>>countries, like Finland :-(
> 
> 	Skinheads are not necessarily Nazi. This movement initially
> 	was an extrapolation of mod movement in England,
> 	and was militantly anti-racictic. 


Right. But German skinheads are very seldom others than some kind
of Nazis (there are, however, several sorts of them: some are
profoundly racist, some emphasize "national" and "socialist" ideals).

I used the stenographic formula "skinhead-type of activities" to emphasize
that Estonia has not yet the same kind of gangs as especially Germany
and Sweden, and even to some extend Finland, has.

> 
> 	The contrary is also true. There are no skinheads
> 	in Russia or Estonia, while there are lots
> 	of fascistic nationalists.

 

I do not even think that there were lots of "fascist" nationalists
in Russia, either. Only relatively - Russia is a great nation -
and even tiny minorities might be easily seen  and cause much harm.
The Russian chauvinism does not necessarily use the fascist dress.

But still, you represent a typical attitude here in this newsgroup.
You don't even know the politicians by the name, but still you
pretend that you know their attitudes and political views...
Profoundly sad, actually.

 
>>The situation is totally different in Estonia (which has no
>>record of ethnic violence as a mass phenomenon. The civil war
>>can only be imported in Estonia. Who might be apt to do such
>>a thing? What do you think?
> 
> 	Who imported a Civil War in Yugoslavia? Germany,
> 	CoE and Croatian diaspora. 


With CoE you probably refer to European Community? With this I disagree,
but I will not discuss your opinions on Yugoslavia.



>       Who will import
> 	a war in Estonia? Russian nationalists, Estonian
> 	diaspora and CoE...



The only group you refer here to with will and means to import the
civil war in Estonia are some Russian chauvinists: the Nevzorovka.

 
>>For me it's enough to state that there are two ways to solve
>>the national question: the Finnish way and the Yugoslavian way.
> 
> 	Yes, I admire Finnish bilingual politics too.
> 	Hope you are right that the same will happen 
> 	in Estonia. We need for this some sanity from
> 	both sides. I never hoped that Russian nationalists
> 	will express themselves sane. Unfortunately,
> 	the same comes true for Estonian authorities.


Of course, Russia should realize that what Russia needs in Balticum
are three more Finlands. What else could you ask?
 
> 
>>"Rabidly nationalists" are empty words again. Who thinks
>>and does what?
> 
> 	You read Tannel articles on Estonian
> 	bilingualism? I think that some of his writings
> 	pretty well qualify for "rabidness".



According to my opinion Tanel is a democratic patriot and
we share many of opinions on the Estonian politics, as I
noticed in our discussion. We have some minor disagreements,
though, especially on bilingualism. But I am just an
observer, I am not personally involved in Estonian politics.
It's up to Estonians to decide, what kind of political culture
they have.

 
 
>>The Estonian diaspora was caused by the occupation of SU.
> 
> 	Sure! Therefore they hate Russians and add their
> 	share of insanity to the problem. 


Calling the other side insane adds to insanity.


>       Note also that
> 	big part of them has collaborationist ancestry
> 	and those guys still dream of Third Reich 
> 	golden days. 



That's your prejudices and nightmares! If they were so numerous,
why didn't they show up in the previous Estonian elections?
There were some right-wing (pro-USA) candidates running. Third
Reich is not popular in Estonia (because of the Molotov-Ribbentrop
pact).


>       The same goes for Ukraina and Croatia,
> 	of course.


Perhaps you know something about Ukraina (aren't you Ukrainian, right?) 
and Croatia and generalize your prejudices into Estonia. That's not any 
kind of rational comparison

thinks
the observer
Tapani Hietaniemi, Universitas Helsingiensis
                   urbs fennorum

Newsgroups: soc.culture.europe