From: ninjam@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Marty)
Subject: Re: Savate and Mhuay Thai kicking principles
Originator: ninjam@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 00:33:23 GMT

stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com (Todd I. Stark) says:


>In article <1992Sep10.184100.27829@ns.network.com>, hahn@plugh.network.com 
>(Peter Hahn) writes...

>>>3. If you took american boxing and added kicks
>>>to it, wouldnt it just, eventually, evolve into
>>>something like Thai kickboxing?   Or not?
>> 
>>Possibly -- this seems to be the case with Kyokushinkai and its
>>offshoots.  On the other hand, not necessarily: consider Savate, or PKA
>>style kickboxing.  Neither style is terribly similar to Muay Thai.  And
>>Savate, like Muay Thai, even allows leg kicks.
>> 
>
>Peter (or others knowledgable in these two arts) :
>
>	Would you please describe the difference in approach for me ?
>
>							todd


Other than the fine reply that has allready been posted (I forgot the
gentleman's name), the reason Savate kicks are more "surgically" delivered
is because the kicking aspect was developed wearing boots.  Usually
with steel tip toes.
The following is a brief history of Boxe Francaise or Savate, that
I have compilled from personal notes and various books and magazine
sources:

The earliest beginnings of Savate start back in the late 1700's with an
art called Chausson.  It was a foot only combat art practiced by
sailors on ships.  The kicks and art developed from the ship environment,
so the kicks were done by balancing yourself on the deck or banisters
for balance.
Savate itself was established in 1820.  It started as a unification of
many of the differen't foot fighting styles across the various provinences
of France, along with various hand defense techniques.
Michael Casseux was one of the most notable in the foundation of Savate.
He spent much of his time in Bars and back alleyways studying the types
of street fighting.  Many of these hoodlums fought with all parts
of their bodies as weapons, including elbows, knees, head, kicks
to vital spots, and other "dirty" tricks such as fingers to the eyes.
From his studies, Casseux came up with 15 divisions of "boot" techniques,
and 15 divisions of cage or "stickfighting" techniques (at the time,
many people walked with canes as it was in style as I'm sure many of you 
know.  So there were many a streetfighting technique based around these
canes also.)
     A major change in Savate happened when Charles Lecour, Casseux's
best student, was defeated by an English Boxer.  Lecour decided to
learn English fist fighting techniques from this boxer, who went by
the name of Owen Swift.  As is has been said by Salem Assli, one of
modern Savate's premier exponents, "English Boxing had perfected
fighting with the arms and fists, while French Savate used only
the legs and feet as principal agents of combat, and regarded the
hands as only defensive weapons."
     Salem then says "The French were not taking advantage of much of the
help which hands could provide, and the English, who regarded the legs only
as a means of advancing or withdrawing, were losing much of the resources
of the feet.  Lacour saw this and began to combine English boxing with
French savate and created French Boxing, or Boxe Francaise savate."

Wait a minute!  A boxer beating a kicker?  Kicking combined with Boxing
to complete an all around good art?  Hmmm....sounds suspiciously like
the thread that's been going on here. :)


Anyways, Boxe Francaise savate continued growing and refining, and
eventually included techniques from Parisian wrestling.  Around
the turn of the century, Joseph Charlemont perfected many of the
existing techniques, wrote several books on the subject, and opened
a school.  Charlemont had such a skill with his kicks that he could
forcefully kick at a window and just barely touch the glass without
breaking it.  

Regular competition started back when Charlemont was challenged by
an English boxer in 1899.  The Champion's name was Jerry Driscoll, who
Charlemont laid waste to.  Soon after, the first World Championship
of Boxe Francaise was held, and was won by Charlemont's son, Charles.
By 1907, this laid the foundation for Boxe Francaise to be a popluar
sport thoughout Europe, and of course it started gearing more towards
the sports aspect.

Ohh gee....now wait again.  A serious fighting art gearing towards a sport
too?  Geeze.  And they must have lopped off all the deadly stuff, right?
I mean, boxing is just a sport too, right? ;)

Anyways, many Savate people died In World War I.  They regrouped, and
then....wait...nawwww...couldn't be....  Boxe Francaise became a 
succesfull demonstration sport at the 1921 Olympic Games.  Geeze,
I guess TKD wasn't the first MA to loose out on the Olympics. ;)

Anyways, a great many Savate teachers and practionere's died in WW II
which almost totally devistated the art.  It did survive though,
spread in popularity again, and eventually came under the wing of the
Judo Federation, and national Championships were again held in 1970.
Which takes us to today.


Anyways, hope that helps your question Todd, and anyone else out there.


Marty


Do