From: jenk@microsoft.com (Jen Kilmer)
Subject: What feminists believe (was: Re: Male Men Bashers)
Date: 22 Jan 93 09:32:51 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

In article <93020.1332133399390@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> <3399390@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> writes:
>Someone (The Great Name?) offered as a definition of feminism "that set of
>beliefs which is held by 95% of all feminists".  This needs some work.  I
>call myself a feminist, so I'll start.  This is a list of SOME of my beliefs.
>...I have which I connect in some sense
>with being a feminist:

Cool thread. I also consider myself a feminist. For me:

0. Women & men aren't that different. Men don't have to $ucce$$ful & 
   $upportive and into $port$ (tho they can if they want to). Women
   don't have to be dependent and nurturing (tho they can if they 
   want to). Men can be full-time, stay at home fathers. Women can
   be the primary earner. Yes, in a typical life/home/society, certain
   roles should be filled - I just think they should be filled according
   to an indiviual's talents and desires, not according to an individual's
   gender.

>1.  Awareness of date rape should be raised among college students (my
>    age group).

I'd like an awareness that a lot of the old gender-based dating rules
can be easily discarded when they don't make sense. IE who asks, pays;
women often like sex; men can say no to sex; etc. But I don't see "date
rape" as a necessarily feminist issue except in how the gender roles
encourage it (ie men should press for sex, women shouldn't say no if, etc).

>2.  Abortion is morally wrong, and should be illegal except in the case
>    when the life of the woman is in danger... etc etc disclaimer etc
>    etc more disclaimer...rape...incest..etc.

A) Abortion is a woman's choice with input from the man involved, family,
friends, clergy [as appropriate]. I could not force another woman to 
go through pregnancy and delivery. B) Not necessarily a feminist issue,
except in how gender roles affect it (women shouldn't like sex, women are
taken advantage of, a pregnant woman is 'in trouble', etc).

>3.  If birth control fails, both the man and the woman should be stuck
>    with supporting the child, or else must agree to put the child up
>    for adoption.

If birth control fails and the pregnancy will continue, both the man
and the woman must decide if they want to parent. Joint custody, sole
custody, or put the child up for adoption. If one party choose not to
be a parent, they are under no future obligation and forfeit all future
rights. 

>4.  Educational establishments are still in various ways preventing or
>    discouraging women from reaching their full potential in such areas
>    as engineering, math etc.  Female role models would play an important
>    part in overcoming this.

I agree.

>5.  Censorship of pornography is OK.  (Note: here take pornography to mean
>    sexual material which *I* think is degrading to men or women.  If some-
>    one is in doubt as to whether or not something is pornography, they
>    can just ask me! :)

One person's pornography is another person's erotica. Pornography created
using children [pictoral: under legal age; literature: under age 14] and
any pornography created without someone's consent should be illegal; all
else is okay. 

I do not accept that reading about something FORCES someone to do it. An
individual must make their own choices. Therefore it is *NOT* a legal
defense for an accused rapist to state, "I did it because I read ______."

>6.  Affirmative action is OK.

Quotas are not okay. Perferential hiring is not okay. Requiring employers
to demonstrate that they are hiring/admitting the best candidate regardless
of gender is okay. 

>7.  Sexual harrassment of men or women is bad.  

I agree.

>    Men and women have a respon-
>    sibility to learn about what the other gender (or anyone) might
>    consider harassing, and to respect this.

Men and women have a responsibility to be responsive and to refrain
from behaviours which others have found harassing. Reading other people's
minds is impossible.

>8.  Men and women make equally good parents,and equally good employees.

YES.

>9.  Jokes putting women down are sexist.  Jokes putting men down are funny.

HA HA HA.  I assume this is a joke. If it's serious, I disagree.

>10. Men and women should be paid the same for doing the same job.

YES.

>11. Jobs
>    that have traditionally been done by women are underpaid (like nursing).

Often, yes. 

>12. Women should be drafted as well, where a draft exists.

YES.

BTW, US readers who agree might want to write to Patricia
Schroder, your rep, and your senators.
While you're at it, suggest that military women should be given
any job in the military for which they can pass the qualifing tests
(if any). Note I have not suggested changing the tests. 

>13. There is an epidemic of male violence against women.

There is an epidemic of male violence against people. While some would
say that female violence should increase, I would rather that total 
violence decrease. 

13a. If a woman is a victim of a crime, the woman is often blamed
for 'enticing' the perpetrator to action. This is bad. 

13b. In an effort not to 'entice' someone into harming them, or not
to be blamed for 'enticing' someone into harming them, women go to
great effort to not go to 'bad places' or wear 'bad things'.

13c. It is often assumed that a man physically assaulting a woman
is worse than a woman physically assaulting a man [and/or that a 
woman is INCAPABLE of physically assaulting a man]. These assumptions
are bad, wrong, sick, destructive, vile, and evil, and also lies.

>14. It would be great to have a female Prime Minister of Canada!

Yes, and neither Barbara Bush nor Hillary Clinton have wielded the
power of President of the United States. 

>In an effort to make myself more desirable, I am going to try to get to like
>arrogant brutish jerks.
>
>Ann

Well, Ann, in some circles an interest in computers will make you more
attractive. In some circles, you'll never see [or speak with] that guy
again. I think I've started to develop radar on this topic, in fact :>

-jen

Newsgroups: soc.women