HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: edmtl@alf.uib.no (Thor Legvold)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Whale Research
Date: 17 Aug 92 10:47:21 GMT
Organization: University of Bergen, Norway

In article <GISLE.92Aug14235454@gyda.ifi.uio.no> gisle@ifi.uio.no (Gisle Hannemyr) writes:
>In article <1992Aug14.174852.26475@ugle.unit.no> jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun) writes:
>> In article <1992Aug14.133831.28632@ifi.uio.no>, richard torres writes:
>|> 
[deleted]
>
>> Please explain why people all over the world hunt animals. Imagine if
[deleted]
>
>
>Jan, those were legitimate questions, and deserve proper answers, not
>parody.  He is not asking about commercial hunting, but about this
>year's research and the number of whales killed for research.
>
>
[deleted]
>
>|> This way less whales will be unnecessarily be slaughtered.
>                                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^

It's difficult to accept you good intention when you use such 
'emotional' words... Are you sincerely interested or just trying to
start a flame war...?
 
>As the meat resulting from this years research hunt will be available
>in the shops and used for human consumption. Hence, no whales are
>unnecessarily slaughtered :-) .
>
I bought  a kilo last week down at the fisketorget (Bergen).
It won't be available for long, however...

>I suspect that you will feel provoked by the sentence above and the
>following smiley.  You may even elect to interprete it as evidence
>that this year's research hunt is just commercial hunting in disguise.
>I can assure that this is not the case.  The number of whales that the
>ships are permitted to kill this year is about 1/15th of what would
>make sense commercially and the sale of the meat will not pay for the
>fixed costs involved in the hunt.  But the researchers felt it would
>be an abomination to destroy good meat fit for human consumption.

Actually, at kr.180,- for a kilo, it is really very inexpensive - 
no, this is (as you state) not a commercial whaling excuse.

For those of you in the (American) audience who want to try something
new, I can e-mail a good recipie for whale steak (it's from
Faroe islands, where killing of Grinda whales occours without intl`
protest...) if you like.  Of course you'r on your own for the whale... :-)

>|> Any comments are welcomed.
>That's very generous of you.

Yes, very generous ;-)

>--
>Disclaimer: My employer seldom even LISTENS to my opinion.
> 

Regards,
Thor
T.Legvold@edb.uib.no
-that which does not kill us makes us stronger. Nietzsche.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: andersa@Riga.DoCS.UU.SE (Anders Andersson)
Subject: Baltic Sea area demographics and geology
Organization: Uppsala University, Sweden
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 15:47:15 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.095651.11359@hellgate.utah.edu>, u-lchoqu%peruvian.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Lee Choquette) writes:
> The Finland-Swedes live along the south and west coasts of Finland.  There are

When we stopped momentarily in the (formerly Finnish) town of Viborg
during a tourist trip to the USSR in 1989, our guide specifically
pointed out the central bus terminal.  On its roof, there was an old
sign (complete with neon lettering, I think) reading "BUSSTATION" in
plain Swedish only...

I assume also Viborg had a mostly Swedish-speaking population (the
father of Finland's Grand Old Lady during the 19th century, Aurora
Charlotta Stjernvall, became the mayor of Viborg after it was
'returned' from Russia to the recently incorporated Great Duchy of
Finland, and he was of Swedish descent--just an example).

However, it surprises me that in spite of the major move of the
inhabitants from Viborg when the USSR annexed the area in WWII, such
things as signs in Swedish may still exist on public buildings there.
Is the present population entirely Russian, or are there perhaps
Karelian or other minorities living in the town?  Can anyone shed
some light on this?

>  > 	Are there any significant sub-populations of Balts west of 
>  > Latvia, in the nordic countries, or the other Baltic states?
> 
> There are more Estonians in Sweden than anywhere else besides Estonia.

I've learned that there is also a significant contingency of Latvians,
though maybe smaller than the Estonian group.  However, I saw that the
Lithuanians in Sweden number less than 100.

> Finnish and Estonian are mutually intelligible.  There is also some small
> Swedish influence in Estonia from the long period centuries ago when the Baltic
> Sea was a Swedish lake.  I don't know what the Estonians are racially.
                    ^^^^
Well, I assume you actually mean "sea", as the Littorina Lake (which
preceded the Baltic Sea) is gone since some 8,000 years, and now I'm
of course talking about a time when Scandinavia was still recovering
from the latest glacial period... ;-)  Sorry, couldn't resist that!

Btw, is Aurora Charlotta Stjernvall, aka Madame Aurore Demidov,
generally known in Finland today?
--
Anders Andersson, Dept. of Computer Systems, Uppsala University
Paper Mail: Box 520, S-751 20 UPPSALA, Sweden
Phone: +46 18 183170   EMail: andersa@DoCS.UU.SE
Xref: sparky soc.culture.nordic:5114 sci.lang:6440
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic,sci.lang
Subject: Re: Understanding language (Was: Re:  <None>)
Date: 15 Aug 92 20:52:33 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Per-Erik Martin (pem@Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE) writes:
)Yngve Koehler Raustein (raustein@athena.mit.edu) writes:
))Being from Bergen, Norway, and trying to make yourself understood in
))Sweden is a very frustrating experience; you end up having to talk
))"svorsk" (a mixture of Sw. and Norw.)  Because of my rather
))guttural `r's, many Swedes assume I'm Danish, and when told that
))I'm in fact Norwegian they retort, "but one can at least
))*understand* Norwegian!"  I am not overly impressed with the Swedes'
))exposure to other Nordic languages...

Stockholmers. They don't even (want to) understand Scanian(*). As soon
soon as they hear a guttural "r", they close their ears. Probably a
hopeless case.

)(Footnote: By "Swedish" I mean the Swedish spoken in the middle and northern
)parts. The southern dialects have some of the features of Danish and is
)consequently sometimes hard to understand by other Swedes.)

Vavadejasa?

(*) Scania is the southernmost province in Sweden.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
Life is wonderful when the wonderlife is full
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: sveini@mack.uit.no (Svein-Ivar Lillehaug)
Subject: Re: Whale Research
Organization: University of Tromsoe
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 00:46:31 GMT


Some more info to add to Gisle's posting

The scientific hunting of minke whales is just one small piece of the
work that is done in order to build a good model on what is going on
in the seas. Different kinds of information are collected about the
fish, the sea animals, the sea plants, the sea and so on. Man tries
to figure out (about the fish and the animals) where they are "borned",
how fast they grow, what they eat and where they eat, where they live,
where they swim, when-where and how many babies, where and how much
poison from the humans, who are they eaten by, how old do they get,
and so on.........

Based on this information man can build models to understand what is
going on in the sea system, and this Richard and all the others of
you, is something that we need to know if we still intend to use the
sea as a food reserve. The harvesting can be controlled and regulated 
according to models which are updated all the time. In this way we
can still manage to keep current endaged species and protect others
and, at the same time, get our food out of the sea harvesting.

As being a big eater in a big volum at the top of the chain, the
minke whale can not be excluded from this model. Especially not when
that same animal represent a big food reserve

In addition to what Gisle said, the hunting was done in areas that
were decided in advance. This in order to compare what they eat in
the different aereas with what type of fish and other things (based
on info from fishing) you can find in the same aereas. And, maybe
I should not mention it, but..., some are also doing research on the
meat to check out vitamins, proteins, fat, "health oil" and so on for
"ernaeringsmessige" questions. Actually, minke whale meat is way
more healthy to eat than for example cow meat. 

And finally, some are also keeping track of the minke whales movement
by radio transmitters. Together with counting of them, this is another
example of pieces out of the Norwegian research on the minke whale,
which again is just one piece out of a big program: THE SEA! 

So to all of you self-claimed-minke-whale-hunting-hater-
environmentalists......:

Put your finger into the ground (or the sea) and start thinking!


Svein-Ivar

-a whale a day,
 keeps the doctor away

Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: ulf@gbg.infolog.se (Ulf Sundin)
Subject: Making jobs (was: nationalism, Finns, Chinese, etc.)
Organization: Infologics AB
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 15:02:14 GMT

In article <1992Aug17.071944.25463@ugle.unit.no>, jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun) writes:
> 
> But why not make jobs for all norwegians (or finns/finlendere :-), AND
> the refugees/immigrants ?

If you are able to 'make' the jobs, then maybe you also could try
to export them. :-)

> Why not make an economical and political system which can take care of
> these things ?

There are no economical and political systems capable of 'making jobs'.

Another related aspect is that by increasing immigration,
the home market will grow, which will probably stimulate the national
economy to grow. This will then, in the long run, mean that more jobs
will be needed.

So: immigration is good for the economy!

/Ulf Sundin
 



Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: tomas_e@LINK.Physchem.KTH.SE (Tomas Eriksson)
Subject: Re: Business (was Re: Immigrants and employment)
Reply-To: tomas_e@LINK.Physchem.KTH.SE
Organization: Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 11:47:17 GMT

In article <1992Aug21.070748.2858@ugle.unit.no>, jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun) writes:
>In article <1992Aug20.134757.8860@kth.se>, tomas_e@LINK.Physchem.KTH.SE (Tomas Eriksson) writes:
>|> As you know, the whole theoretical
>|> basis of marxism stresses the importance of ownership of the means of 
>|> production. If you look at this, the most basic and important indicator 
>|> if a country is socialistic or not, the Soviet Union *was* socialistic.
>|> (And the western countries are mainly non-socialistic.) This means that
>|> many, if not all, of the lessons learned from the Soviet Union and its
>|> general breakdown *are* applicable to e.g. Scandinavia. 
>
>Well guys - you can just continue this stupid "discussion" - when you
>say that Soviet is the proof of socialism / communism I could say that
>some Latin or South American dictatorship was the proof of capitalism /
>liberalism - but I know better, and you should, too.
>
>This kind of discussion is as stupid as some of the discussions with my
>6 years old child...

It looks like you're trying to avoid the discussion. If anyone in this 
discussion seems to be naive, I fear it's you. Mind you, I don't think
it's wrong to be naive, but it's good to know when it's better to keep 
your opinions and comments to yourself... :-)

Do you deny that the *ownership of the means of production* is the most 
informative variable, when it comes to finding out if a country is 
socialistic? If that is the case, you've apparently thrown Dr. Karl Marx 
overboard, and then it would be nice if you could tell us just what you 
mean when you say "socialism/communism". And I hope you don't try to 
deny that the means of production the Soviet Union *were* under state 
(or public or whatever you want to call it) control, which, using what 
Marx taught, makes ex-SU a socialist state.

Tomas

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tomas Eriksson                                          tomas_e@physchem.kth.se
            Surface Force Group, Department of Physical Chemistry,
               Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: pem@Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE (Per-Erik Martin)
Subject: Re: Vikings savages
Organization: Student
	<1992Aug12.193543.11942@burrhus.harvard.edu>
	<1992Aug12.225731.18241@corax.udac.uu.se>
	<1992Aug13.155721.2351@burrhus.harvard.edu>
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 19:43:41 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.155721.2351@burrhus.harvard.edu> canders@isr.harvard.edu (Carl E. Anderson) writes:

>	Ah yes.  The head of my department here at Harvard has been trying
>to convince me to write my thesis on R|kstenen.

Sounds like a good idea to me. :)
I don't think anyone has written anything about it since Elias Wessen 1958.
It may be hard to come up with anything substantially new, of course...

>>                                      (At the same time a very simplified
>>type of runes evolved, but it wasn't att all suited for carving in stone,
>>but probably quite efficient for fast carving in wood with a short knife.)

>	Oh yes - what are they called?  Kortkvistarunor or something like
>that (not a word they taught me in my conversational Swedish classes I'm
>afraid!).

Well, actually R|kstenen is mostly written with kortkvistrunor ("short
branched runes"?), but they were primarily meant for carving in wood, and
are unusual on stones. I actually meant the even more simplified
development of these runes where the vertical strokes are removed.
Only some ten stone carvings with these are known; it's not at all an
epigraphical style, and rather hard to read on stone. (Some of the stone
carvings are probably copies of wood carvings.)

>	Is there any evidence that the elder 24 character futhark was drawn
>on during the later period of expansion of the 16 character futhark to the
>medieval futharks?

No, as I mentioned in another article, the additions where mostly adding
dots to the runes, and by using some for new sounds (like using the nasal
a-rune for o). Sporadically some new runes where invented, but they didn't
resemble any known old runes, and were never widely used. (Like the rune
for c and z on the Saleby stone from 1228.)

--
 |\/|\/|\/| Per-Erik Martin,
 |  |  |/\| Department of Computer Systems, Uppsala University,
 |/\|  |  | Email: pem@minsk.DoCS.UU.SE
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun)
Subject: Re: Whale Research
Reply-To: jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun)
Organization: SINTEF, Norwegian Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 92 17:48:52 GMT

In article <1992Aug14.133831.28632@ifi.uio.no>, richard torres writes:
|> 
|> Please explain  what  the norwegian scientists are researching
|> on about whales.  Is it really necessary to slay more than a
|> hundred whales?  Why are the norwegian scientists doing the  
|> research alone?  I'm sure other nations would like to do research
|> about whales as well.  Imagine if they start doing their own slaying. 
|> Any research about whales must be done internationally so that
|> scientists from different countries can share their results and  monitor
|> each.  This way less whales will be unnecessarily be slaughtered.
|> Any comments are welcomed.
|> Richard
|> 
--


Please explain why people all over the world hunt animals. Imagine if
all men and women start doing their own slaying. Hunt must be done
internationally so that people from different countries can share their
results. This way less animals will unnecessarily be slaughtered.

And what about the farmers. I've heard that they slaughter their
animals, and afterwards they eat them. Disgusting! I've even heard that
some of them try to persuade other people eating them, too (they call
it "meat") !

Any comments are welcome.


+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jan Arne Fagertun, Research Engineer, SINTEF Division Thermodynamics|
| E-mail: Jan.A.Fagertun@termo.unit.no                                |
| Phone : +47 7 596890                            Fax  : +47 7 944513 |
| Mail  : SINTEF/Varmeteknikk, 7034 Trondheim, Norway                 |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: jmarttila@abo.fi (Fast-Eddie Felson)
Subject: Immigrants and employment (Was: Re: nationalism...)
Organization: Turku School of Economics
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 17:37:32 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.064003.2996@ugle.unit.no>, jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun) writes:
> In article <1992Aug17.190858.1@abo.fi>, jmarttila@abo.fi (Fast-Eddie Felson) writes: 
>> I don't think I'm forgetting that O:) I'm sure majority of the immigrants want
>> to do something as much the local people to start a better life here, but
>> unfortunately it's not a question of will - nobody simply wants them to work
>> for them. There are several reasons for this, a) these people can't speak
>> Finnish and sometimes not much even English so training them to the jobs is
>> hard, b) the immigrants are often poorly educated and you can't just find any
>> suitable jobs for them, c) the unemployment in Finland is growing all the time
>> and to each free post there are many Finnish applicants who usually fit better
>> to that particular job due to the better education they have had.
 
> That's right. But the problem is not the immigrants, it's the society
> which don't want to employ even all of its native inhabitants. This is
> basically a political/economical, not an immigration question!

The society doesn't want to employ anyone, it's the businesses and
organizations that employ people. Nobody has the obligation to employ
anyone. It was in a particular eastern country that the society used
to employ people. Our western society, however, works so that people
are employed only if there's a need for such and even then employers
can make the choise of who they want to employ O:). Nowadays employers
would rather like to get rid of their current employees than employ
new people and if someone happened to need workers, he would probably
rather take the best educated and most suitable guy to do the job.
There's nothing political in this. Would you buy a Trabant that costs
5000kr, if you can get a Lada with the same price? O;)
 
> In Norway there were no problems with jobs for immigrants - many
> employers even stated they'd rather have workers from Pakistan than
> from Norway - until the general economical crisis in Europe (and
> Norway) started !

Yes, Pakistani people are less likely to go in strike and they do the
same work with less money. Usually, however, they are offered only
the "low-level" jobs like cleaning etc. and in Norway of course they
get jobs in ships.
I thought you were joking when you said you are a communist O:)

	Greetings,

	Jouni
    _______________________________________________________________________
    Jouni Marttila - Yo-kyl{ 11 B 25, 20540 Turku, FINLAND - +358 21 374624
         jmarttila@finabo.abo.fi - jmarttila@finabo - abovax::jmarttila
From: kurt@dna.lth.se (Kurt Swanson)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: News of Lion in Finland
Date: 19 Aug 92 12:25:29 GMT
Organization: Lund Institute of Technology, Sweden

In article <1992Aug19.104422.6638@jyu.fi> ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:
>In article <0095F528.00310FC0@vax.nott.ac.uk> cczjtw@vax.nott.ac.uk (John Whitehorn) writes:
>>I've been away from my terminal for a month. Before I left there was a
>>lot of talk on this newsgroup about a Lion in Finland, was it ever 
>>found?
>>	John Whitehorn
>
>It was never found and propably never seen. It was just for filling other-
>wise poor news flow as usually during the holiday times.
>The next bigger news from Finland coming abroad will be around Christmas,
>Santa Claus will be seen somewhere live.

I have heard that there is a quite serious argument over when Mr.
Claus actually does live.   Apparently this is a dispute between
Finland and Greenland, and that because of this, Finland was excluded
from some recent "Christmas Conference".  I got this news from Radio
Sverige, known for disseminating such factious subjects.

Kurt Swanson, Dept. of Computer Science,
Lunds universitet.  Kurt.Swanson@dna.lth.se
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: euafri@eua.ericsson.se (Fredrik.Ostman)
Subject: Re: Immigrants and employment
Organization: Ellemtel Telecom Systems Labs, Stockholm, Sweden
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 07:33:08 GMT

jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun) writes:
>bzfstoer@ZIB-Berlin.DE (Mechthild Stoer) writes:

>|> Jan Arne Fagertun has some interesting propositions:
>|> What I mean to say is that most of these wonderful concepts don't work.

>I agree, most of these wonderful concepts don't work - BUT that's not
>because the idea is bad

If it doesn't work, the idea *is* bad.

>it's because the (stupid) economical/political
>system is not capable or willing to handle these problems.

If one way isn't perfect, why replace it with another that doesn't
work at all? If you want to quarrel with God of how the world is wrought,
do you really think God has subscribed to this group?
--
  ______                     _~
 (_/_ _  _  _/) _  . /)     / ) , _/)     _
__/ _/(_(/_(/__/(_/_/Z_    (_/_/)_/__/))_(I_/)_
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: f33012l@puukko.hut.fi (Janne Kivel{)
Subject: Re: Immigrants and employment
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 10:22:58 GMT

In article <1992Aug21.054521.18258@jyu.fi> ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:
>In article <1992Aug20.152441.10529@kth.se> tomas_e@LINK.Physchem.KTH.SE writes:
>>>...after all, my country was under a colonial rule, first Swedish...
>>
>>Just a minor point: in the "Swedish days" Finland was the eastern part of
>>Sweden rather than a Swedish colony. You may think this is semantics, but
>>the relationship (present) Finland - (present) Sweden in those days 
>>wasn't all like e.g. India - Britain.

It' more useful, IMO, to compare Swedish rule of Finland to other European 
nations that were under 'foreign' rule at the same time. 

>Tomas Eriksson seem to have very peculiar but Swedish way of seeing
>things as an representant of an old colonial power which tries to give for the
>history her own explanation.

I would like to ask Mr. Ryyti why was Kingdom of Sweden called 'Ruotsi-Suomi'
(Sweden-Finland) in history lessons when I was at school? There was no
state called Finland at that time or any national identity among Finnish
speaking people. This Finnish national identity was not born until in 
the middle of the 19th century and it was created by some members
of Swedish-speaking upper class.

Initially during the crusades, the Swedes colonized the Finns by bringing 
us religion, administration and taxation by force. In this sense, Sweden
was a colonial power, though Finland later became an integral part of
the kingdom.

It's impossible to judge by today's standards whether this colonization
was good or bad.

> "because they were
>owned by anybody",people were given Swedish names, Church services were
>given in Swedish,The administration worked in Swedish, administrators
>were send from Sweden, what is the different between India and Finland?
>You cannot say distance. Finns were used as lobour source, as a source
>to recruit into the swedish army people...shall I continue...

Are you saying that the administrators were sent from Sweden during 
the entire period of Swedish rule? Wasn't there some 'home-grown' aristocrats?

More questions to Mr. Ryyti:

In what ways was the treatment of Finnish peasants different from the one
of mainland peasants if we exclude the language?

How many nation states existed in Europe when Finland was under Swedish
rule?

Janne Kivela"
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic