HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dlhanson@nap.amoco.com (David L. Hanson )
Subject: Re: Racism Defined ... 
Organization: These opinions are mine!
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 15:31:58 GMT

In article <1992Dec13.235907.21207@microsoft.com> johnhall@microsoft.com (John Hall) writes:

>In article root@gnn.org (Michael Mussington) writes:
>| Another answer: An attempt of an ethnic group or any member thereof to
>| implement procedures or structures intended to subordinate member of 
>| another ethnic group, based upon an assertion that differing ethnicity
>| constitutes qualitative difference.
>
>Another answer: An attempt to
>implement procedures or structures intended to harm or subordinate 
>member of another ethnic group, based only on their membership 
>in said group.
>
>-- 
>-------------------------
>My comments are my own.  They are independent and unrelated to the
>views of my company , relatives or elected representatives.
>
or promote or give special consideration to

Signature follows:

"The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God.  They are corrupt, they
have done abominable works, there is non that doeth good."  Psalms 14:1

=========================================================================
David L. Hanson       Internet --> dlhanson@nap.amoco.com
Amoco Corporation     X.400    --> A=attmail,P=amoco,S=Hanson,G=David,I=L
Any opinions expressed are my own!
From: Terry.Parks@launchpad.unc.edu (Terry Parks)
Subject: Re: "Reflections of an Affirmative Action Baby"
Organization: UNC Office of Information Technology
Distribution: usa
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 01:38:23 GMT

>>Name these wrongs and please identify the mythical AA programs to which
>>access is based on having been so victimized rather than all actual AA
>>programs to which access is based on race.

>You have consistently ignored evidence in the past. Could you 
>please stop requesting such evidence, that you fully intend to
>ignore in the future, on this group?

Maybe because all this "evidence" consists of is:

>You have consistently ignored evidence in the past. Could you 
>please stop requesting such evidence, that you fully intend to
>ignore in the future, on this group?

That's why it's called mythology.


>>   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
>>     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
>
>
>Of course not. They are the opinions of Glen KKKooley.

This comparison is lost on me, is this some Klan buddy of yours?

--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: recertification
From: a3408at@cabell.vcu.edu (EDU556E002)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 18:49:52 GMT
Expires: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 05:00:00 GMT
Distribution: misc.education
Organization: Virginia Commonwealth University
Keywords: recertification
Summary: Getting recertified is not always easy.


Getting recertified to teach is not always easy to do.  I have my
Master's Degree and I have to really search to find a class in my
discipline that I have not already taken.  However, "Applications of
Computers in Education" is a course that can be applied in any area
and is definitely relevent for the classroom of today.  Also, it is
not easy to find time to study and do assignments in a computer lab
when you have children to constantly care for.  Nevertheless,
teaching----here I come...again.
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian)
Subject: Re: Racist/Sexist Role Models
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 16:22:02 GMT

Chris Holt is complicating matters in this discussion with dubious
definitions. For example:

But since (I assume)
we can agree that racism is something done *to* a group, why
can it not be viewed as being done *by* a group?  In particular,
if 10% of a group acts in a racist manner, and the other 90%
go along with it or only offer feeble verbal disclaimers, is
the effect not as though the entire group acted so?

Racism is very rarely done to a *group,* only to individuals who happen to
belong to that group. And it is done by individuals, whatever institutional
sanction they may have for their acts. Otherwise, by Chris's logic, we have
to assume that every German (including the ones in concentration camps
because of their resistance to Hitler) is responsible for the Holocaust;
every American, including the draft dodgers, is responsible for My Lai; every
Brit is responsible for the Boer War; every Indian Muslim and every Indian
Hindu is responsible for the current riots. And if that's the case, we can
throw any individual into jail for their criminal racist behavior, whether
they've done anything or not.


--
Crawford Kilian   Communications Department   Capilano College
North Vancouver BC Canada V7J 3H5
Usenet: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca
Internet: ckilian@first.etc.bc.ca

Newsgroups: misc.education,soc.culture.african.american
From: ndw2u@curry.edschool.Virginia.EDU (Nicole Danielle Woodard)
Subject: Re: What A White Person Learned in College About AfAm Culture
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 04:57:28 GMT

I am shocked at what I am reading on this network!  It is 1992
and this sounds like the rhetoric of a century ago.  If you
know your history so well then you realize that affirmative
action has its roots in the veterans preference programs that
were started after World War I.  It was not called affirmative
action merely "preference".  This preferential treatment lead
to access to housing, loans, education, jobs, etc.  People did
not claim that it was "unfair" for veterans to have access to
these opportunities yet this supposed "unfairness" is the
premise that people use to end affirmative action policies.  

The claim that African-Americans are just like other minorities
that have come to this country is completely erroneous.  From
the moment of our interaction in North America, whites
exploited African-Americans.  Unlike any other minority, the
oppression of African-Americans was legislated by the founders
of this nation since its inception.  The oppression
began with slavery and continued with disfranchisment, Jim Crow
laws, the Black Codes, segregation, and it continues today
through covert forms of oppression.  

Regardless of the negative comments which I am sure that this
posting will generate someone needed to shed some light on the
historical significance of affirmative action.  This history
and the historic interactions of whites and blacks is essential
to understanding current race relations.
Newsgroups: misc.education,soc.culture.african.american,alt.discrimination
From: brian@quake.sylmar.ca.us (Brian K. Yoder)
Subject: Re: Racist/Sexist Role Models
Organization: Quake Public Access
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 00:14:56 GMT

In article <T3sJVB1w165w@gnn.org> root@gnn.org (Michael Mussington) writes:
>> > How do you define racism?
 
>> Answer: A consistent and systematic attempt by one ethnic group to 
>>         maintain political, social or economic dominance or control
>>         over another within a society.

>Another answer: An attempt of an ethnic group or any member thereof to
>implement procedures or structures intended to subordinate member of 
>another ethnic group, based upon an assertion that differing ethnicity
>constitutes qualitative difference.

I disagree.  I think that a black person (just as an example) who refuses to
hire black employees or admit black students to his school is being a racist
too.  Of course this is much less common than the interracial kind of
unfair discrimination, but the idea that whether you are a raicst or not
depends on your ethnicity or not is itself racist!  Racism is an idea, and
whether you have that idea or not (that moral or intellectual traits are
based on race) has nothing to do with your race.

--Brian
Newsgroups: misc.education,talk.religion.misc,soc.culture.usa,alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk
From: starpath@bard.MIT.EDU (David E. Hollingsworth)
Subject: Re: ! J O K E !
Reply-To: starpath@bard.mit.edu
Organization: Massachvsetts Institvte of Technology
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 21:42:31 GMT

In article <Bz3yrt.F36@eis.calstate.edu> ftoppin@eis.calstate.edu (Frank  
Topping) writes:
> Perhaps other newsgroups are interested in knowing what America's
> children are being subjected to by Pacific Bell, Pacific Telesis,
> the California State Department of Education, the California 
> Technology Project and the Chancellor's Office of the California
> State University System...
	Oh, come on, the jokes were offensive and certainly shouldn't have  
been posted to k12net, but the person responsible is:
> jklein@gmd.de (Joe Klein, I3.KI 2675)
and not the agencies you mention above.  No child is being 'subjected' to  
anything, unless of course you suspect that they are required to read all  
k12net postings.  Perhaps 'exposed to' would be a better phrasing.
	If you found that some person was writing obscenities on the walls  
of the restrooms in a school, would you claim that the sewage system  
(along with the various education groups you mention) was responsible, or  
would you deal with the offender himself?

--
David Hollingsworth starpath@bard.mit.edu Send me NeXTMail or kill me
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I rebuke Satan in the name of Jesus and I bind that demon that has
you so lost.  My brother, the Lord is going to deliver you from pride
and haughtness.
	-- Roderick Moten to Eric Sieferman on talk.religion.misc
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Tuesday, 15 Dec 1992 11:42:01 CST
From: <U38026@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: uic.org.the-student,misc.education
Subject: The First Day of Class

Letters

It was the first day of Fall semester 1992.  First class of the day, all
hopes and aspirations for a better school year were dancing in my head.
I had to cough up an extra 10%, but surely the class sizes would be
smaller, surely there would be more assistance to aid me in my work.
After all, what did I pay that extra money for?

So there I was in my first class, 10:00 AM, with 45 other students
waiting for the professor.  The class was larger than is reasonable, but
I was still excited.  The professor was my advisor.  He was teaching the
class in the field I wanted to pursue.  Then another professor walks in.
Apparently there had been a change of instructors.  He didn't have a
syllabus prepared, and he had changed the book, which I had already
purchased.  Then he tells the class his office location and telephone
number, saying:  <169>don't call unless it's an emergency.<170> He went
on to say that he wouldn't be teaching us for 2 or 3 weeks during the
semester because he'll be away at conferences.  Great!  Then he started
talking about his research.  Unfortunately, the topic of his research
was very narrow; only a handful of people in the entire world are
employed in this area.  The topic is barely related to the course.


I had heard enough.  I went to the department head's office and told my
story to the assistant to the head.  She said:  <169>Well, this is a
Research I university.  And it's not unlikely for a professor to bring
his research into the classroom.<170>

I guess I know where I stand at this university <197> behind research.
It's a fundamental right that I have an instructor who is accountable to
me, a professor who is there to answer my questions and wants to provide
assistance.  After all, isn't that what we're supposed to be paying
for?!


If you have any questions, comments, or like sources of information send
ME E-MAIL AT U38026@UICVM.UIC.EDU. ALSO CHECK OUT OUR NEWSGROUP AT
UNIVERSITY OF ILLINOIS AT CHICAGO (UIC.ORG.THE-STUDENT).
"An affordable and qualitative education is a right, not a privilege."

Newsgroups: misc.education,alt.discrimination,soc.culture.african.american,soc.women
From: sunny@al.cs.wm.edu (John S. Egbo)
Subject: Re: "Reflections of an Affirmative Action Baby"
Organization: College of William & Mary, founded 1693
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 06:32:24 GMT

In article <1gasnoINNksi@transfer.stratus.com>, dswartz@redondo.sw.stratus.com (Dan Swartzendruber) writes:
|> In article <1992Dec11.164107.11996@cs.wm.edu> sunny@il.cs.wm.edu (John S. Egbo) writes:
|> >
|> >In article <1992Dec10.010630.1914@microsoft.com>, johnhall@microsoft.com
|> >(John Hall) writes:
|> >|> It works that way, though.  If you let people in not fully prepared for
|> >|> the work, they end up leaving in droves (again, summary at the end).
|> >
|> >
|> 
|> [apologia for AA deleted]
|> 
|> Tutoring and other helps are all well and good, but they won't make up
|> for 12 years of substandard education at a crappy inner-city school.
|> 
|> >
|> >So just what does your statistics say again?
|> 
|> What my statistics say (and those of Berkeley, Harvard, Yale and every
|> other elite school that practices this form of AA) is that these kind
|> of special admissions students flunk-out in droves the first year.
|> Someone's already posted a comparison of the graduation rate of regular
|> admissions blacks vs special admissions blacks.  I believe the ratio of
|> about 2:1.
|> 
|> >-Sunny
|> 
|> 
|> -- 
|> 
|> #include <std_disclaimer.h>
|> 
|> Dan S.

So what?

You go on to ignore what I said earlier.  Why do you ignore major
factors that account for drop out rates better than test score in your
interpretation of the meaning of your statistics?  Quoting Berkley,
Harvard and Yale is NOT a substitute for good scientific analysis.  If
you are wondering why you might reach the same conclusion as some (*note
your own words*) elite schools, have you considered the possiblity that
their statistics is just as self-serving as yours?  I have already 
pointed out some of the major factors for anyone (black, white, asian,
or latino) to drop out of school.  You ignored them.

The facts, as I mentioned in my note that you are replying to above,
is that it should not come as a suprise that minorities drop out in
higher numbers in the institutions you mentioned.  Please re-read my
note.

I think that you are jumping to conclusions.  Who do you think you
are fooling?  Quit feeding us garbage.

-Sunny
Newsgroups: misc.education
From: simon@giaeb.cc.monash.edu.au (simon shields)
Subject: home schooling
Summary: Any home schoolers live here
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 23:23:46 GMT


Hi 

This is the first time I've posted to this list.
I was wondering if there were any homeschoolers posting here.
Whats the general opinion on this list about home schooling ?

Just interested.

Bye from Simon
Xref: sparky misc.education:5441 soc.culture.african.american:13111
Newsgroups: misc.education,soc.culture.african.american,alt.discrimination
Subject: Re: Racist/Sexist Role Models
From: galan@netlink.cts.com (Greg Gross)
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 92 21:23:11 PST
Organization: NetLink Online Communications, San Diego CA

brian@quake.sylmar.ca.us (Brian K. Yoder) writes:

> In article <R1XiVB1w165w@netlink.cts.com> galan@netlink.cts.com (Greg Gross) 
> >sethb@fid.morgan.com (Seth Breidbart) writes:
> 
> >Greg Gross to Terry Parks:
> >> >I also wonder if you actually know what racism is. 
> 
> >Seth B:
> >> Racism is using race as a basis when it should be irrelevant.
> >> Deciding on who to hire, fire, promote, accept, or give scholarships
> >> to on the basis of race is racism.
> >> 
> >Greg:
> >> >On second thought, I take that back. I've read your postings. You don't 
> >> >know.
>  
> >> How do you define racism?
>  
> >Answer: A consistent and systematic attempt by one ethnic group to 
> >        maintain political, social or economic dominance or control
> >        over another within a society.
> 
> So racism is something that ethnic groups do?  This is ludicrous.  Racism is
> is an idea, not an action (a person could be a racist and never have
> taken any actions against anyone).  Racism is something done by individuals,
> not groups.  If one chinese person (unlike every other chinese person)
> decides that he hates indians and refuses to hire any or speak to any
> and paints insulting remarks on the homes of indians in his neighborhood,
> he *IS* a racist.  Why do you think it matters whether a group or an
> individual does this?  Additionally, what if only a minority of some ethnic
> group engages in such behavior?  Face it, most white people are not 
> racist (my definition), but there is a minority of whites which is.  Are you
> dondemning the entire "white ethnic group" as being guilty of racism?
> 
> --Brian
> 

Brian:
Guess we just have some fundamental disagreements...

Racial superiority (or inferiority) is an idea. the promotion of that 
idea to benefit those who promote it, at the expense of those who are 
victimized by it, is an action. This action can be taken by individuals 
for individual purposes, or by individuals in concert for a larger 
purpose.

You're entitled to your opinion that most whites are not racist. By your 
concept of racism, how could they be?  As for me, I couldn't say whether 
most whites were racist, non-racist or anything else. I can't claim to be 
that familiar with "most whites."
G.

--
Gregory Alan Gross      Welcome to life, where no good deed goes unpunished.
San Diego Union-Tribune         (619) 293-1270 (voice)
P.O. Box 191                    (619) 293-2333 (fax)
San Diego, CA 92112-4106        galan@netlink.cts.com (Internet)
Xref: sparky misc.education:5210 soc.culture.african.american:12839 alt.discrimination:5283
From: Chris.Holt@newcastle.ac.uk (Chris Holt)
Newsgroups: misc.education,soc.culture.african.american,alt.discrimination
Subject: Re: Racist/Sexist Role Models
Date: 13 Dec 92 21:27:51 GMT
Organization: University of Newcastle upon Tyne, UK, NE1 7RU

brian@quake.sylmar.ca.us (Brian K. Yoder) writes:
>galan@netlink.cts.com (Greg Gross) writes:
>>sethb@fid.morgan.com (Seth Breidbart) writes:

>>> How do you define racism?
>
>>Answer: A consistent and systematic attempt by one ethnic group to
>>        maintain political, social or economic dominance or control
>>        over another within a society.

>So racism is something that ethnic groups do?  This is ludicrous.

It most certainly isn't ludicrous.  This definition may not match
yours, but that doesn't make it wrong.

> Racism is is an idea, not an action (a person could be a racist
> and never have taken any actions against anyone).

So this is a part of *your* definition.  Others might call such
a person prejudiced, but reserve "racism" for people who act.

>Racism is something done by individuals, not groups.

Again, this is part of your definition.  But since (I assume)
we can agree that racism is something done *to* a group, why
can it not be viewed as being done *by* a group?  In particular,
if 10% of a group acts in a racist manner, and the other 90%
go along with it or only offer feeble verbal disclaimers, is
the effect not as though the entire group acted so?  Irrespective
of the actors in the drama, if the effect is "a consistent and
systematic" pattern of racist acts, then relying on individual
counter-actions to repair the damage seems a tad... optimistic.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Chris.Holt@newcastle.ac.uk      Computing Lab, U of Newcastle upon Tyne, UK
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Discord, the Goddess of the Net, was developing a taste for blood sacrifice.
Newsgroups: misc.education,soc.culture.african.american
From: brian@quake.sylmar.ca.us (Brian K. Yoder)
Subject: Re: What A White Person Learned in College About AfAm Culture
Organization: Quake Public Access
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 11:13:50 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.023906.4665@athena.mit.edu> solman@athena.mit.edu (Jason W Solinsky) writes:
>In article <ByzK1F.8s0@quake.sylmar.ca.us>, brian@quake.sylmar.ca.us (Brian K. Yoder) writes:

>|> The reason blacks have not "melted" into mainstream society since slavery
>|> is NOT all their fault (nor that of everyone else).  The proponents of
>|> racial separatism, no matter what their race, are to blame.

>A quick note. Most of the minorities that were discriminated against
>before succeeding benefited from racial seperation. 

I don't think "benefitted" is the right word.  If there is tremendous 
discrimination it makes sense to establish schools and businesses where
the victims of unfair discrimination can do their business.  Until things
open up, these kinds of institutions make sense, but once the minority is
accepted into mainstream society, it's members are generally better-off
integrating.  Just as an example, if it is impossible for a chinese person
to get a job because of racism, it makes sense for the chinese to establish 
a "china town", but these days being chinese is not an impediment to being 
hired, so staying in china town is actually worse than leaving.  Likewise,
back when blacks couldn't get into mainstream universities, it made sense
for them to have their own.  Now that there are few barriers to mainstream
schools, I think that such schools have outlived their usefulness.

--Brian

>They first became
>prosperous by seperating themselves from the other groups. Then they
>"melted in". It is quite possible that this lesson does not extend to
>1992, but it definitely runs against the idea that racial seperation
>and racial prosperity are diametrically opposed.


Newsgroups: misc.education,soc.culture.african.american
From: solman@athena.mit.edu (Jason W Solinsky)
Subject: Re: What A White Person Learned in College About AfAm Culture
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 02:33:27 GMT

In article <1992Dec8.015215.3857@panix.com>, lkk@panix.com (Larry Kolodney) writes:
|> In <1992Dec7.032209.13962@athena.mit.edu> solman@athena.mit.edu (Jason W Solinsky) writes:
|> 
|> >I think that it is unfortunate that most people can not take time and
|> >think about ideas which they absolutely disagree with.
|> 
|> Hey Jason, don't flatter yourself.  Do you think this list has never
|> heard the ideas you are propounding on this network?  They are
|> cliches Jason.  There's nothing original about them.  People on
|> this network have no obligation to take them particularly seriously
|> when they've been reiterated in one form or another literally hundreds
|> of times.

But in your rediculous arrogance and stupidity, you continue to maintain that
you have the knowledge to know what is best for somebody else.

In America, people like yourself constantly hold all people to follow their
rules. Laws about racism are just one MINOR example. If you do not follow
the decreed values, you stand to loose all of your propery, be physically
molested, imprisoned and killed.

I will continue to preach what I think is right and I don't need haughty fools
like yourself telling me what I can and can not say. You restrict me enough
already.

Jason W. Solinsky
Newsgroups: misc.education