From: casper@vxcrna.cern.ch (CASPER,DAVI./PPE)
Subject: Re: Zodiac Constellations
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: European Organization for Nuclear Research, CERN
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 15:13:00 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.072307.28503@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>, kappa@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Glenn Capuano) writes...

>	Greetings all. I am new to this newsgroup, and I am surprised to
>find so many messages devoted to such a thoroughly discredited
>superstition as astrology. Yes, that's right, I'm a skeptic (couldn't
>guess could you! :-) )

Hi Glenn,

Hope your asbestos clothes aren't out at the cleaners...I have a feeling
you'll be needing them soon.

As a fellow skeptic, maybe I can answer your questions, since you are not the
first to ask them.  No doubt the hard core types here will appreciate this
public service.

>I read the FAQ, found some of the "answers" to the
>questions I have been wanting to ask for some time, eg precession of the
>equinoxes. However, I have a couple of questions which weren't covered in
>the FAQ.
>1) How do you claim to account for the fact that the sun spends 3 weeks in
>the constellation of Ophiuchus each year, which is not considered by
>astrologers, compared to just 8 days in Scorpius, which is? Does a person
>born in the first 3 weeks of december not have a personality?

Same as for the fact that Scorpio is actually in Libra ... according to the
"tropical" zodiac, what is significant is not the actually stars themselves
(i.e. the constellations), but some particular angle on the sky with respect
to the equinoxes.  Hence to the astrologer it matters not whether the ecliptic
passes through the *constellation* Ophiuchus, no more than it matters that the
*sign* Scorpio is actually now in the *constellation* Libra.  What are you,
stupid or something?  It's obvious, isn't it? 

Of course, why it is that the mythological meanings of the constellations
seem to have been mysteriously projected on the signs' positions a few
thousand years ago is still not clear...

>2) I noticed in the FAQ a lot of "science does not know everything, there
>are more things in heaven and earth" sort of talk. This is true, but how
>can you claim to know this privileged knowledge that even science can't
>find? It seems to me to be the height of arrogance to claim this.

Well, I suppose I'm not the one to answer this since I don't buy the bill of
goods being peddled in the FAQ, but you will likely get an answer like:

"The true height of arrogance is to assume that science is the only way of
finding knowledge".  After all, don't you know that people were a lot smarter
back in those days when astrology was invented, you know, back when they thought
the planets were Gods, that the four humours governed temperament, that
the universe could be reduced to the 5 platonic solids, etc., etc.

>	As I'm sure you know, many skeptics groups have rewards offered
>for correct predictions by astrologers. In particular, Australian Skeptics
>offers $10,000 to any astrologer who can, given someone's date and time of
>birth, and the dates and times of ten events in their life, state what
>those events were. Until such time as this challenge is taken up, I remain
>unconvinced.

You and me both.  Here you are likely to see several different answers.

1) Tests done by skeptics are not fair since they cheat to make the astrologers
look bad.

2) Astrology does not work in a repeatable way, so there is no way to predict
events with this kind of precision before the fact.  When we examine the chart
after the events, with full knowledge, of course everything makes perfect
sense.

3) Astrology is a form of personal counseling and it would be impossible to
make these kinds of predictions without a close personal acquaintance with the
subject.  Of course, people here have no problem holding forth in great volume
about minor features in the charts of people they have never met, but I guess
this constitutes "research in progress".

4) Fuck off and die you troublemaker, we don't want you here questioning our
beliefs.

Anyhow, cheers Glenn.  I hope you stick around - it does get interesting here
occasionally.


Dave Casper
CERN - Geneva
casper@vxcrna.cern.ch

Newsgroups: alt.astrology