From: kte@INEL.GOV (Kathryn L Cook)
Subject: Re: Obedience v. Breed
Reply-To: kte@INEL.GOV (Kathryn L Cook)
Organization: Idaho National Engineering Lab
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 15:10:41 GMT

In article <168C1C219.CBARNES@tamvm1.tamu.edu>, CBARNES@tamvm1.tamu.edu (Chris Barnes) writes:
|> In article <1992Dec18.164521.17561@cas.org>
|>    sla54@cas.org (Sandra Augustine) writes:
|>  
|> >>In an ideal world, conformation is as equally important to a breed
|> >>as obediance (and hunting ability if applicable).  But we don't live
|> >>in the ideal world, we live in the real world.  And in the real world,
|> >>the show ring has flat ruined many working breeds.  Goldens are a
|> >>good example, but irish setters are even better.  With the setters,
|> >>many, MANY people don't even consider the hunting lines and the show
|> >>lines to be the same breed anymore.
|> >
First of all I agree that the dogs you see in the breed ring for some breeds
are no longer being bred with consideration for their original purpose.  But
I don't see how this is *just* the fault of the show breeder.  Let's use
Golden Retrievers as an example and for the sake of argument let's say that
show bred Goldens can't hunt. (Actually I know Goldens who are shown, worked
in OB, and are hunted, not in trials, but as a true working dog to the hunter).
Anyway, how can you say or imply that this lose of working abilitity is the
sole fault of the show breeder.  If anyone cares or cared about working Goldens
someone would be breeding for this, and other someones would be buying puppies
from them. If this is not the case then *NO ONE* cares if there are hunting Goldens.
In the case of your Labs, you prize working ability over all other traits and
that's great. Noone makes you breed your dogs for conformation or forces you 
to include conformation dogs in your line so show breeders are not hurting
your program or interfering with you goals.  If noone wants working
bred dogs, then either the working lines will die out or you, Chris Barnes,
will be the only person on earth with working labs.  I agree this is a shame,
but you just can't legislate taste (unfortunately). Don't get me wrong, I know
this sounds like I think that anyone should breed dogs who feels like they want
to for whatever reason, and I don't feel that way at all. I'm just trying
to say that the fault or problem stretches much further then just the show
breeder. 
|>  
|>  
|> <Explaination of Chris's background and experience deleted>
|>  
|> AS A BREED, golden retrievers are not as accomplished as labs or
|> chessies (the other 2 main breeds that participate).

Just a question - Has this always been true, or have the Goldens' hunting
abilities decreased since they became such a popular breed?

|> <Stuff deleted on Goldens in hunting trials>
|> (phone rings)
|> Me:  Hello.
|> Guy at the other end of the line:  Yes.  I was calling about some Lab
|>      puppies you have for sale.  Can you tell me something about them?
|> Me:  Sure.  What do you want to know?
|> Guy: Well, I'm not quite sure.  I do some hunting, but don't know much
|>      about dogs.  Are they good hunting dogs?
|> Me:  (i tell him about their pedigree, my dog's abilities, and the
|>     sire's abilities).
|> Guy: Ok.  Well my girlfriend runs goldens in dog shows, so I'll probably
|>      have her give you a call and find somemore information.
|> Me:  That'll be fine.
|>  
|>  
|> (i feel somewhat unsure about this guy buying a pup, but I'm not
|> excluding him just yet....)
|>  
|> (phone rings)
|> Me:   Hello.
|> Girl: Yes, my boyfriend called about some lab puppies.  Could I ask you
|>       some questions about them?
|> Me:   Sure, what would you like to know?
|>  
|> Lots of questions about conformation background, coat color, eye color,
|> size, etc.  All that is fine, as those are reasonable questions.  Not a
|> single question about hunting titles, parent's hunting ability, etc.
|> This is *not* fine.
|>  
|> Girl: We would like the lightest color female you have.  We'll put a
|>       check in the mail tomorrow.

Doesn't sound like much of a conformation person to me, since she didn't ask
anything about health (OFA etc) and color(?????????) was her #1 criteria.
You have to remember that alot of people who say they are show people aren't
really. Oh they may pay their entry fee and they may show their dogs, but
this does not necessarily mean that they know anything about their breed,
how to show a  dog, or what makes a quality dog.
For example: I know a person who wanted to show a dog, but decided that she
could get a random backyard bred dog of X breed, for less than 1/2 what she
would have to pay for a carefully bred dog. She opted for the cheap dog.  She
enters him in Novice class. (For those of you that aren't aware, Novice is
considered the practice class. Only dogs who have never won their class before
(maybe twice, I don't remember) may be entered in it and it is very rare indeed to see any dogs entered in Novice. It does happen once and awhile by people who
just want to give their dog ring practice.) Anyway, she enters in Novice, wins
1st place because her dog is the only one entered and then brags about his win.
This is not a show person to me. A nice person and sincere, but she just doesn't
understand. And your example women doesn't sound like much of one as you
portray her either.  BTW, maybe she didn't ask any hunting questions because
her boyfriend had already asked them.

|> Me:   Well, I don't think that's necessary.  I think you probably ought
|>       to look elsewhere for your dogs  (I'm trying to be polite here).
|>       I would rather have them go to a home where they would be used for
|>       hunting and run in hunting tests.
|> Girl: (somewhat upset) You mean you won't sell one to me?
|> Me:   I'm afraid not.
Good for you. You should not sell your pups to *ANY* home you do not feel is
right for them. IMO, this is not only your right, but also your responsibility.
|>  
|>  
|> Do you see the problem she has?  It's not that she was a golden person.
|> It's that she was a show person.  She didn't give a squat about the
|> purpose of the breed.  And that is typical of show people.  And that's
|> why I don't like the conformation ring.
|>  
That is not necessarily typical. If I judged hunters, by some of the
hunters I know of in my area, my opinion of all hunters might be as
unbalanced as your opinion of all show people.  Something that happens quite
often around here is for people to steal sporting dogs from people's
homes/kennels and even the field, use them during the season, then either
dump them, kill them, or take them to the pound.  Despicable, but true. Chris,
should I judge all hunters on the actions of these folks? 

Only my Opinion,
-Kayti
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