From: williamt@athena.Eng.Sun.COM (Dances with Drums)
Newsgroups: soc.bi,soc.men,soc.women
Subject: Re: Seperatists etc.
Date: 19 Dec 1992 17:41:43 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc., Mountain View, CA
Reply-To: williamt@athena.Eng.sun.com (Dances with Drums)
NNTP-Posting-Host: athena

In article <1gu2heINNdco@agate.berkeley.edu> rsr@soda.berkeley.edu (Roy S. Rapoport) writes:
>
>Traditional feminist arguments against exclusive-menspaces have been that
>these have been places where business is discussed, where economic
>opportunities are presented.  Exclusing women from these spaces gave these
>women less economic opportunities, and as such, discriminated against them
>on an economic basis.
----
	There is nothing preventing women from discussing the same topics
and achieving the same benefits.  

	This reminds me of an issue that comes up between me and my SO.  When
I indicate my desire for space -- a night every week or two when she
is out of the house and I can do as I please, she still wants to know
what I am doing and still wants "approval/disapproval" power over whatever
it is.  Now she won't go so far as to explicit prohibit anything, but
she will use emotionally coercive methods to make her disapproval known
if I don't tell her what I am doing and/or if she doesn't approve of it.
The point I am trying patiently to get across, is that if it is my
space, then it is *my* space, and I don't want anyone else issuing 
approval of what goes on there or not.

	If I am with a group of men, and the conversation turns to work
related stuff or even business related, I don't want to feel censored because
we have not allowed women there.  Face it, you put a bunch of computer
nerds in a room, and it will likely turn to tech talk.  If women are
there, those same conversations often don't occur -- different topics
are discussed.  Now for me, I have found that this is often because
there is a desire to include the woman, and more often than not, the women
are not interested in the tech talk, so a subtle unconscious paradigm is
at work here.  Of course women's worst fears are realized when the tech
talk results in some talk about forming a startup or business and they
weren't there to be included.  I don't feel it is necessarily a conscious
issue -- any more than there are different subjects of conversation
in women-only groups than when in mixed gender.


>When separatism does not lead to economic disadvantages, I think you'll find
>that most people would support it, even if they didn't practice it.
---
	On the other hand, maybe I care about emotional/social disadvantages
more.  Women network alot more, and I may have my personal values setup such
that emot./soc. is more important than 'economic' disadvantages.  Is
there a reason why it is ok to exclude men from women's-only
groups when they are discussing *my* hot points, when it would be
not ok for a men's-only group to discuss subjects relating to the women's
hot points?  Many men are coming to realize the value of emotional/social
networking.  Is it any more valid to exlude them from women's-only groups
where that type of interaction occurs?

	The current mindset is that economics are important above all else.
However, many men are coming to realize that issues of environment,
community, emotional and social support are just as important if not more
so.  Recent studies on surviving partners show that women survive much
longer and better after the death of a partner than men.  It was observed
that the women were the keystones to the couple's social and emotional
interactions with others.  The men only had their partner -- because 
historically men have been taught to be "lone wolves".  Fighting for
supremacy.  This results in higher death rate and less satisfaction with
life for men.  To exclude men from women's-only groups where networking
does occur, it would seem is just as wrong as it would be to exlude
women from men's groups where economic and/or tech topics are discussed.

	The problem is that when you mix the sexes, what is discussed often
changes.  What needs to be brought into perspective, however is that
mens' desire/need for men's only space is just as valid as that of
womens' for theirs.  Now whether or not either is valid and under
what circumstances, is a topic I am not deciding on.

william

--
1935 will go down in history.  For the first time, a civilized nation has
full gun registration.  Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient,
and the world will follow our lead into the future.
                         --Adolf Hitler
Xref: sparky soc.bi:16818 soc.motss:53023