From: ratner@cs.columbia.edu (Michael Ratner)
Subject: Re: Can white men jump?
Organization: Columbia University Department of Computer Science
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 18:02:39 GMT

In article <IGOR.92Oct13033330@krishna.cs.columbia.edu> igor@cs.columbia.edu (Igor Pankevich) writes:
>In article <Bw1rt9.83z@cs.columbia.edu> ratner@cs.columbia.edu (Michael Ratner) writes:
>
>>  Once again, I believe that there's a certain balance of abilities in a
>>  person -- physically strong are usually not too bright, and smartest
>>  guys I know don't exactly look like Stallone...  I guess you get my point.
>
>
>   >>  ...
>   >>  >A little side point. Many participants of this group are Jewish (and
>   >>  >this paragraph is addressed to them). I'll take a risk to guess that
>   >>  >most of them, even though aren't religious themselves, pay due respect
>   >>  >to their ancestor's religion and even observe high holidays. Don't you
>   >>  >think that the whole concept of "chosen people" is racist?
>   >>      "Chosen people" is more of a religious concept than a racial/ethnic
>   >>      one.  Jews happen to be of all races/colours, and you could become 
>   >>      one (observe the Jewish holidays, even emigrate to Israel:), if you
>   >>      _really_ wanted to.
>   >
>   >"Chosen people" is _primarily_ an ethnic/racial issue. You are Jewish in
>   >teh firs place according to your birth, and only then - according to
>   >your beliefs. You can become Jewish being of any race, but you can't
>   >give up your "Jewishhood" once you are born that way. Then, again,
>   >read the Tora: the G-d promised Abraham to have his _decendants_
>   >"Chosen People", and only later He stated the formal procedure for the
>   >Goim to become a part of a Jewish house. That is one of the reasons
>
>>   Sorry, Igor, that is not true.  First of all there are no "Goim who
>>  become a part of a Jewish house."  A jewish soul can be born among the
>                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>  non-Jews and then return to formal "Jewishness."  Yes, it is sometimes
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Well, this, strictly speaking, is the question of whether or not one
>accepts the idea of reincarnation, and not everybody does. One might

But I know you do ! :-)

>argue that the phrase (in Russian translation of the Tora - sorry, I
>don't read Hebrew) "da istrebits'a dusha ta is naroda svoego",
>implying the severest punishment one can get (worse than being killed
>by people, - being killed by the G-d Himself, meaning - permanently,
>forever) means that that soul can never be born again. And that would

What you are referring to is called "karet" and, yes, it means that
the  soul is removed from the Jewish people.

>imply that, once Jewish, a soul can only be reborn amongst Jews.
>Then again, there _are_ laws stated in teh Deuteronomy about how the
>ousider, a _non-Jew_ can _become_ a Jew! It doesn't say that the house
>should accept this person because this person is in fact a Jew, just
>born among the goim!

Because what I said is part of the Oral Tradition, and based on
Rabbinical commantaries to written Torah.

>>  hard to distinguish between such a Jewish soul and a non-Jew who is
>>  for some reason attracted to Judaism.  That's why it is EXTREMELY hard
>>  to convert according to Orthodox rules -- they are afraid to make a
>>  truly disastrous mistake of considering a non-Jew to be a "real" Jew.
>>  Also, a "ger" (convert) has always been considered to be included in
>>  the covenant of Abraham. In fact, when "ger" is called to read the
>>  weekly chapter of Torah he is called as "<someone> ben Abraham" or son
>>  of Abraham.
>
>Then, again, I wonder: how it is possible to know for sure that the
>person posesses a "real" Jewish soul for Orthodox Jews? Do they just
>feel convinced after a person was attending the local sinagogue for
>a sufficient period of time, or something? And what is that terrible
>disaster Orthodox Jews are afraid of, do you think?

Well, just try to put aside your sarcasm for a moment and imagine the
responsibility that is laid on members of the "beit-din" (court of
three Rabbis) when they decide whether to accept this person as a Jew ?
Jews have a myriad of duties that they, and not non-Jews, have to
perform.  Imagine a non-Jew saying a blessing at the holiday table !
All the guests will have broken the law that night, because it's a law
to join the blessing, and blessing recited by a non-Jew just does not
count as something that Jews can join (I am talking about a specific
holiday table blessing here).
The worst scenario: a convert is a woman and her children cannot be real
Jews if she is not one.

>>  No knowledgeable Orthodox, let alone Hasidic Jew, would treat a ger as
>>  a "second class" person.  Never.  Actually in the daily prayer there's
>>  a special "directive" to love converts, on top of the one concerning
>>  people of Israel in general.
>
>	Really? Well, your friends in Israel must have not written to
>you for a really long time, then... Did you ever here about how
>"religious" Jews treat Russian olim there?
>And I put "religious" in quotes because I don't think they are doing
>the right thing (IMHO) and their reasoning , I believe, is religious.

Attitude of Orthodox parties in Israel towards Russian olim has
nothing to do with treating converts as second class Jews.  The fact
is that a considerable portion of Russian olim are non-Jews.  I am not
talking about non-Jewish spouses and children of a Jew -- these can
become citizens of the state of Israel but their "pyaty punkt" would
read "non-Jew." (Although religious parties were adamantly opposed the
amendment to the Law of Return that made such situation possible).  I
am talking about scores of non-Jews who had gotten invitations from
Israel and come there as formally Jews.  And also with a Russian oleh
it is sometimes hard to establish whether his mother was actually
Jewish.  All that mess lead some Orthodox parties to ask for a formal
Orthodox conversion of all Russian olim (they ask that for Ethiopians
too, you know) following the principle "better safe than sorry."

>>  As far as the concept of Jews being a "chosen people" is concerned, if
>>  you define racism as claiming that one ethnic group is better than
>>  another, then it has nothing to do with racism.  Jews as chosen people
>>  are not "better" or "worse" than the others.  They just have a
>					         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>  different task in this world.  Try to think of this as a horizontal,
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>  and not a vertical distinction.  Are men better than women ?
>
>	Oh, I don't argue with that! In fact, as Tevie put it, "I know
>we are the chosen people, but can't You sometimes choose someone
>else?" But in fact, Jews say they are closer to G-d than other people,
>and I don't argue with that. I am just asking: isn't being closer to
>G-d somehow better than being farther from Him? And doesn't it make
>Jews better than other people, at least in this sence?

Since you are begging, I give up -- yes, if being closer to G-d makes
Jews better then they are better in this sense.  Do you see a
redundancy here ? :-)

>   >--Igor
>(remaining myself - Igor)
>
>>>			   -- Mike
>
>--Igor

P.S.  Igor, I think that this discussion doesn't quite belong here in
soc.culture.soviet.  Why don't we either move it to soc.culture.jewish
or just discuss it at lunch sometime  ?

-- 
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			|  Michael B. Ratner  |
			|_____________________|