From: wojdylo@maths.uwa.oz.au (INFIDEL)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Ethnic violence in ESTONIA (Was: Fursten
Date: 12 Oct 1992 05:02:05 GMT
Organization: The University of Westrn Australia
NNTP-Posting-Host: madvax.maths.uwa.oz.au

thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi writes:

>In article <1aue65INNlm5@uniwa.uwa.edu.au>, wojdylo@maths.uwa.oz.au 
>(INFIDEL) writes:

>Of course there were detestable fascists all over Europe, also in
>Finland. I have no intention whatsoever to "explain" their vicious
>deeds. 

Try to understand the precedent set by the presence of fascist SD
mass-murder divisions on one's territory --- whose ranks are filled by
"true Estonians/Latvians" --- then consider the legacy of the Ustashe
and their ilk in Croatia , Bosnia-Herzegovona and Serbia. 

I never said that the Baltics will go the same way as Yugoslavia; I did
say that the Latvian and Estonian governments have laid the grounds for
war by making it a lot easier for evil forces beyond their control to
have their way. Bad legislation does not imply the sort of ridiculous
soothsaying you claim not to partake in. It implies the release of the
wrong forces.


>I'll comment only the prophecy:

>> 5 years from now, Western liberals and Estonian nationalists will be
>> dismayed at and abhorred by the interethnic slaughter in Estonia.
>> They'll wonder what went wrong; and while Western liberals sit back in
>> their cushy armchair having another wine, the Estonian nationalist will
>> be out on the street killing yet another  non-Estonian in  a
>> "revenge-killing" that "had to happen".  Maybe "ethnic cleansing" will
>> then seem like a very good idea.

>Please, do not accuse people of what they have not done. 

The Latvian/Estonian fascists have mates shelling Sarajevo; world war
two war crimes are well documented. Any Latvian or Estonian who believes
that denying unconditional citizenship is a just way to build their
nation is partaking of the legacy of fascism and therefore is morally
culpable for fascist acts carried out in the past, present and future.


>You might be
>tomorrow running amok in your local supermarket and killing dozens
>of innocent Western Australians with your rifle!

I will make sure that it is a Finnish supermarket and that you are
amongst the crowd.


>You make a very strong claim here. Of course, it is impossible for me to
>tell the future, 

You seem happy enough to believe that denying civil rights to 40% of the
population will not have calamitous repercussions.



>but I still outline the most likely outcomes,
>especially the worst scenarios:

>- Narva might declare itself as a free city (with violence).
>- There might be some border skirmishes between Estonia and Russia
>- The Russians could start trade embargo against Estonia (which is
>  almost warfare, since the country is still occupied by Russian forces)
>- The occupation of Estonia might continue.

If economic and political ties (by means of treaties) with a broad
federation of xUSSR states had been achieved, then there would be no
reason for a powerful state to subjugate a signatory of such an
arrangement unless a Communist resurgence occured and the ways of the
federated state returned to fascism.

As it stands, Estonia has chosen to dice with fate by (a) opposing any
federation, thus strengthening the position of Communists within Russia;
(b) denying civil rights to a large Russian minority, thus --- should the
situation with the Russian minority deteriorate --- not acting to prevent
a DEMOCRATIC Russia from forcefully defending the rights of ethnic Russians 
AS IT IS OBLIGED TO DO UNDER INTERNATIONAL CONVENTIONS.

The Estonian government has laid itself open to manipulation by forces hostile
to its existence; e.g. ex-Communists like Colonel Alksnis.


>The only violent threats we hear in Estonia come from some groups in Russian
>parliament. 

Denying civil rights is an act of violence.


>Of course, if Russia falls apart and the democratic Yeltsin
>will be pushed aside, God save Estonia!

God save the region.


>Since Estonia has become a part of Helsinki process and tries to become
>Part of European council, all violent outbursts in Estonia will be
>supressed by the Estonian government, because they are deeply unpatriotic.

As is the denial of civil rights to the 40% ethnic minority.


>As president Lennart Meri said before the elections in Estonian TV:
>Let's face the facts: One MIG crosses the Estonian territory in
>eight minutes. The price of one MIG amounts about 50% of the Estonian
>state budget (of which 3,6% is spent on defense, which he didn't add).

Estonia is recognized as a state in the international arena. Estonia
does not act alone --- it sets precedents for other states -- and
would-be states -- in the region. Denial of civil rights in Estonia and
Latvia is an argument for similar denials in Abkhazia and other Central
Asian regions. Even if Estonia encounters smooth waters in its own
little Baltic triste, it may yet have blood on its hands in the
explosive theatres of Central Asia.


John Wojdylo
October 11, 1992



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