From: REXLEX@linac.fnal.gov
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Damnation
Date: 6 Oct 92 04:32:27 GMT
Organization: FNAL

In article <Oct.4.22.11.40.1992.6038@geneva.rutgers.edu> julian@sfu.ca (Julian
Shillcock) writes:

>I think it is well known that eternity does not simply mean "time without
end",
>as I understand the term it has more to do with quality of life than the
>quantity. So in heaven it is not that we are there "for ever" but that 
>there is no time by which to mark our stay....

I dont have a copy handy, but you should read CS Lewis "Mere Xianity" and the
chapter about time.  If memory serves me correct, he has many good comments to
make on this subject.

> So, given
>that people in heaven do not experience time, I make the assumption that
>(the hyperthetical) people in hell do not.... 

What is your basis?  Yes, Xians do a diservice if they merely reduce eternal
life to endless years.  That can be defined by a dorian gray concept.  No, as
in Jn 17, eternal life is to know the Father.  But lets not say that eternal
life is not also life outside of the limits or boundries of time.  
First, one thing a believer is that a nonbeliever isn't, is "in Christ." 
 Second, reread Rev 20:15ff.  The antiX & the false prophet are still in the
lake of fire after a 1000 yrs when Satan is finally thrown in.  
"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and
brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be
tormented day and night forever and ever.(Rev. 20:10 )
Doesn't say much for a temporary judgement.  

Third, look also at these verses using the same greek word:

And the seventh angel sounded; and there arose loud voices in heaven, saying,
"The kingdom of the world has become {the kingdom} of our Lord, and of His
Christ; and He will reign *forever and ever*."(Rev. 11:15 )

And one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden
bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives *forever and ever*. (Rev. 15:7 )

And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone,
where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day
and night *forever and ever*. (Rev. 20:10)

And there shall no longer be {any} night; and they shall not have need of the
light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God shall illumine
them; and they shall reign *forever and ever*. (Rev. 22:5 )

Now if you are willing to do away with the eternal reign of Christ, the eternal
existance of God, and the eternal life of the believer in Christ, then you can
do away with an eternal hell...BUT not before.  You must exegete not eisegete.


>I feel that this is both a warning and
>a blessing. It is a warning that our lives here have eternal consequences
>but that refusing to accept God's way does not necessarily result in
>never-ending punishment but in non-existence. 

Hmmmmm. Are you a JW by chance?  Annihilation.   "Those who refuse to obey
God's kingdom, after a long enough trial, will be sentenced to everlasting
destruction...actual annihilation..before the end of the Millennium." 
(Paradise Lost, p.237)

>The lake of fire presumable burns up all that is cast into it. 
>It is not possible for ex-human beings to exist there. 

As in a legal court case, one should look to see if a precedent had already
been made.  We have two of them in Scripture.  THe first is in the OT in that
the bush was not consumned by the fire.  THe second is in the NT is the already
quoted verse about the Anti-X & FP still in there after a 1000yrs. So it is
clearly possible for this to happen.

>I find it very, very difficult
>to take christians seriously who believe that a loving God will send
>little children who were... into hell

Who said anything about children going to hell?  Show me in the Scriptures
where you get that doctrine?  Quite actually, the opposite is taught.  I don't
remember the book and verse, but look up David's trial in the death of his son.
 I think it is in 2 Sam.  He also mentions it somewhere in the Psalms.  He
fully expects to see his son in heaven.  This brings us into the doctrine of
the age of accountablility.  


>for the simple reason that they refused his invitation.

SIMPLE!  
"And He said to me, "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning
and the end. I will give to the one who *thirsts* from the spring of the water
of life without cost. He who overcomes shall inherit these things, and I will
be his God and he will be My son. But for the cowardly and unbelieving and
abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and
all liars, their part {will be} in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone,
which is the second death." (Rev. 21:6-8 )
".....and nothing unclean and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall
ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of
life." (Rev. 21:27 )
"Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and let the one who is filthy,
still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice
righteousness; and let the one who is holy, still keep himself holy." (Rev.
22:11 )

>If someone responds that we all have a free choice *in this life* to 
>follow God then I will disagree: we do not. 

When I hear this, I often don't know where to begin.  First, it is a position
that gives man very little dignity or worth.  Yes, you heard me right.  When
Jesus called the 4 fishermen beside the sea, he did not ask them what kind of
GOD they believed in, not even whether they loved God.  He called them to
*follow* Him.  He made a demand.  They had to leave something in order to gain
something greater. Read I Jn. 2:4,5:
1 John 2:4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His
commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
1 John 2:5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been
perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:

There it is, love AND commandments.  The one we like, the other we don't!  But
the whole Bible is like this.  It is not just that it wil not separate faith
and obedience, as though obedience were some kind of inheritance tax that God
levies on the free gift of salvation.  God *cannot* separte them and still
offer salvation.  There is something about love that is no longer love apart
from obedience.  Obedience is not a penalty levied on faith.  It is the stregth
of faith.  Commandments aren't oppresive, they are blessings.  The more we obey
God, the more real God becomes to us and the greater our faith grows.  And the
more we love God, the more we become like God. As stated else where, a God who
makes no demands is an abstraction.  We are responsible creatures.  We are made
in the image of God.  We have real, though finite freedom.  But responcibility
nessisarily brings with it accountablity.
    If you really are serious about this, please rerady my post -Death of
Absolutes.  It takes this a little bit farther.

Rex