HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: burge@qdeck.com (Bill Burge)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 9mm major / 9x21 reloading question
Date: 12 Aug 92 13:33:56 GMT
Organization: Quarterdeck Office Systems, Santa Monica CA

In article <1992Aug10.155619.27023@smartstar.com> smrtstr!syspb@uu.psi.com (Paul) writes:
#In article <15415.9208061354@fishn.chpc.org> rboudrie@chpc.org (Rob Boudrie) writes:
##A friend of mine is interested in experimenting with 9x19mm major
##
##   1)  Does nayone have any 9x19mm major loads?
#
#Isn't the 9X19 case the same as the 9mm Luger/Parabellum?  I found some
#brass that said 9x19 and reloaded it the same as my other 9mm ammo.  It
#seemed like the cases were slightly larger in diameter, but I didn't
#have any problem resizing them.  The brass seemed a bit softer (thinner?)
#than my other brass.  The primer pockets seemed to get stretched out 
#faster than my other brass, but it may have been from seating the bullets
#too deep.  The head was slightly flattened, so I think the pressure was
#too high.  Other than that, the 9x19 seemed to work ok.  Is it really the
#same thing as the 9mm luger?
#

The 9X19 is the 9 Luger.  THe 9Major should ONLY BE ATTEMPTED IN GUNS
BUILT FOR THE PURPOSE.  I have on of these guns.  It is a comped, Colt,
with a fully supported chamber and a tight chamber, from Jim Boland.
The lead in the barrel allows the bullet to be seated long, the same 
length as a 38 Super.  THis give a powder chamber similar in size and
keeps pressures lower.  Keeping this in mind here is a major load that I
like - 6.5gr of W-W 540, 162gr lead round nose and a Federal primer.  THe
bullet is a Western Nevada and has a long taper to the nose.  THis gets more
of the lead out of the case and down the barrel.  THis requires 38Super
magazines.  A greate practice load is 3.5 of 231 and the rest the same.
This is a 155 power factor and from my gun, knocks down poppers, double-
taps great and goes where it is sent with virtually NO muzzle flip.

Bill	burge@qdeck.com
From: cbh@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (arthur.r.hazelwood)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Ruger P85,89  vs S&W 5906,6906
Date: 15 Aug 92 02:47:33 GMT
Organization: AT&T

I am looking to net wisdom to help make my dceision between
Ruger P85, 89 vs S&W 5906 and 6906?
I am interested in peoples prefernces and any general info.
My experience in the past has been with S&W model 686 .38 Special revolver.
Also if anyone has an idea of safety features and what a good price would be?

Thanks, Arthur
From: ghm@ccadfa.cc.adfa.oz.au (Geoff Miller)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: AD or ND (was Re: Black Powder Dry Firing (was Re: Dry Firing: OK?))
Date: 14 Aug 92 13:31:44 GMT
Organization: Australian Defence Force Academy, Canberra, Australia

bressler@iftccu.ca.boeing.com (Rick Bressler) writes:


#To save possible liability problems I'm not going to mention any names,
#but I have heard a noted firearms expert claim that you could divide the
#big name firearms experts (he used several names that read like a who's
#who of the firearms world, you WOULD recognize these names..) as well as
#local instructors, (amazingly, none of the local instructors
#contradicted him :-), into two groups.  Those who will admit to having
#had an AD at home, and liars.

Jeff Cooper pointed out some time ago that Neligent Discharge is
a better term than Accidental Discharge.  There are (very rare)
occasions when it is genuinely accidental, but these are related
to gun malfunctions, occur when you are expecting to shoot (i.e.
on the range) and should be covered by proper range procedures.
Unintentionally discharging a live round in the home is not an
"accident", it is negligence and we should call it that.

#I personally feel that there is a great deal of validity to being
#prepared for your weapon to discharge every time you pull the trigger,
#even when you don't EXPECT it to.

And even when you have carefully checked it.  Check, check, check and
still treat every gun as if it were loaded.

Geoff Miller  (g-miller@adfa.oz.au)
From: jessie@iastate.edu (Brent Danielson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: bolo ammunition
Date: 18 Aug 92 03:00:48 GMT
Organization: Iowa State University

In article <0C2B4801B4BF200ADE@VXC.UNCWIL.EDU>, PATE@VXC.UNCWIL.EDU (BILL PATE,
ADMIN. SERVICES, PATE@VXC.UNCWIL.EDU) writes:
# #>>>>>>> They had other strange things like two halves of a slug that were
# #connected by a segment of piano wire.  Theoretically they would make a bolo
# #while in flight (actually these were used to be used in the days of wooden
# #ships and cannons, made a mess of the other guys rigging).
# 
# This reminds of a cannon innovation which came about during the War for
# Southern Independence (a.k.a. Civil War). The cannon was double-barreled.
# The cannon balls were connected with a length of chain. The purpose was to
# mow down rows of approaching troops. In actual practice the minor differences
# in firing times resulted in hooks and slices all over the place. That was far
# better, however, than a misfire in one of the barrels: that took out the gun
# crew. Before you ask, I don't remember which side invented it.


The cannon was invented by the South.  I believe only one was made.  It never
worked very well since the timing of the ignition in both barrels must be
exactly the same to avoid whipping one ball around the end of the gun and
decapitating the operators.

The gun now rests on the lawn of City Building in downtown Athens, GA.

BJD
From: mac@cis.ksu.edu (Myron A. Calhoun)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Need help restoring a family relic
Date: 19 Aug 92 15:13:39 GMT
Article-I.D.: moe.9208191246.AA22914
Organization: Kansas State University

viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:
#X005CB@tamvm1.tamu.edu (Chris Barnes) writes:
#>My parents have recently passed down a family relic to me, a pre-civil
#>war, double barrel shotgun (looks like 12 ga.)....
     [........]

#[MODERATOR:  Let me underscore the caution that Dan gives above.  Remember
#that a shotgun from that era is likely to be a *blackpowder* shotgun, and
#is unlikely to ever shoot any modern load you can find in a store.]

#From something I read in one of the firearm magazines last year,
I understand that there is also a high probability that it is
still loaded!
--Myron.
-- 
# We preserve our freedoms using four boxes:  soap, ballot, jury, and cartridge.
# Myron A. Calhoun, PhD EE; Assoc. Professor  (913) 539-4448 home
# INTERNET: mac@cis.ksu.edu (129.130.10.5)          532-6350 work, 532-7353 fax
#     UUCP: ...rutgers!depot!mac     Packet-BBS: W0PBV @ K0VAY.#NEKS.KS.USA.NAOM
From: mbh@sdphu1.ucsd.edu (Matt Harrington)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Should my first handgun be a .22? (Too wimpy for defense?)
Date: 17 Aug 92 14:44:08 GMT
Organization: Physics Department, UCSD

I need the advice of rec.guns readers about purchasing my first handgun.
What I'm looking for is:

	- A gun to learn shooting with and to improve marksmanship
	- A gun to use for personal defense in the city
	- A gun to bring backpacking for protection against bears and 
	  general personal defense in the backcountry

A good suggestion made to me by another rec.guns reader was to pick up a
.22 for learning to shoot.  This is because the ammunition is so
inexpensive, and the guns are easy to handle.  I like the feel and price
of the Browning Micro Buck Mark.  The gun shop that I visited also has
several Rugers in .22 caliber.

The two problems that I see with a .22 is that it doesn't seem powerful
enough for personal defense against humans, let alone bears.  The
Browning also seemed a little large to carry around easily.  Maybe I
need two guns: one for practicing (a .22) and one for defense.  As I'm
still in the brainstorming phase, price isn't that important.  Any
suggestions would be greatly appreciated -- thanks in advance.

					Regards,

					Matt Harrington
From: smrtstr!syspb@uu.psi.com (Paul)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Top Man Stoppers???
Date: 14 Aug 92 13:31:51 GMT
Organization: SmartStar Corp. / Signal Technolgy Inc.

##Camp Carbine. I haven't fired one myself, but everyone who has one says
##they're reliable (but get dirty quick). The gun is light, short, and takes
##standard S&W magazines. The recoil should be eminently manageable--less
##than a 20 gauge--and the Smith magazines should give him 14 or so rounds.
#
#In the given situation, hollowpoint ammo should be loaded.  I'm no rifle
#expert, so I don't know if the Camp Carbine cycles reliably on 9mm HPs.
#Anybody know something about this?

I shot some Speer 100gr hollowpoints out of my 9mm Camp Carbine.  They work
great.  With 9.5 gr of Hercules Blue Dot powder, you can get over 1400fps
and are fairly accurate to about 100yds.  I used 115gr HP bullets too,
these have a more rounded nose than the Speer ones.  They didn't jam.  The
only time I had problems with jamming is with 122 lead bullets using Unique.
The gun shot great for about 150 rounds, then it got really dirty and started
to jam.  Cleaning it would have probably stopped the jamming.  With the
jacketed bullets, it's very reliable.
From: jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Occasional Dud in Glock 20
Date: 13 Aug 92 17:39:31 GMT
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University

#From article <1992Aug11.235939.14512@nsc.nsc.com>, by nsc!jrr@decwrl.dec.com (Jerry Roe):
# In article <1992Aug6.220432.3218@CERIS.Purdue.EDU> jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath) writes:
# ##From article <199208051632.AA52995@ns1.CC.Lehigh.EDU>, by ka02@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (Kent P. Aitchison):
# ## In article <vvtm20b.damiel@netcom.com>, damiel@netcom.com (Paul Theodoropoulos)
# ## writes:
# ## #
# ## ## An aside, until you achieve 100% continued reliability with your reloads you
# ## ##should use factory ammo for carry.
# ## #
# ## #whether you achieve 100% reliability or not, you should never use reloads/
# ## #handloads for carry/defense. If you do, and you have to defend yourself
# ## #in court after a defense shooting, they'll tear you a new you-know-what
# ## #in court.
# ## #
# ## #the image they'll paint is of you, unshaven, beer stained t-shirt,
# ## #glazed look in your eyes, creating new "extra lethal" rounds in your
# ## #basement all night long, waiting....waiting...until you can get a chance
# ## #to KILL somebody.
# 
# Just wondering:  let's suppose for a moment you did happen to be using
# reloads, ones that you put together yourself.  Let's say you used major-
# brand brass (Winchester, Remington etc.), tumble-polished it, used the
# same primers the factory did, same powder, same bullets, sized the
# brass to factory specs...how would anybody KNOW you were using handloads?
#

Federal, I think uses gold colored primers in their factory ammo
and doesn't sell them to the public for one.  I dunno if anyone
else is doing similar things or if the Federal primers that _are_
sold as components are the same as the "gold" factory ones. 
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas Moore)
From: rpalmer@Think.COM (Ralph Palmer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Stupid shooter tricks
Date: 20 Aug 92 13:08:36 GMT
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA

I'm posting this to remind all of you to keep track of your ammo.  When 
I was about 12 years old a friend of mine came back from a trip visiting
his uncle and managed to find (or steal) a couple of .22 bullets.  We had
no firearms available but that didn't stop us.  We put a bullet in a vice,
aimed it at a sheet of plywood at the other end of the cellar and gave it 
a whack.  The bullet ricochet off the wall and into the washing machine
leaving a nice little dent.  His dad figured it out and gave it to us
pretty good.  I'm sure glad my friend didn't "find" a .45 bullet!!

					Ralph Palmer
					rpalmer@think.com
From: dpf@convex.csd.uwm.edu (Doug P Forbush)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Stupid Shooter Tricks
Date: 21 Aug 92 18:02:15 GMT
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee

Many years ago, as a young lad, I was shooting handloads
in a '17 Enfield (purchased through the mail for thirty
some dollars - good deal for a kid).  Anyway, I was not
wearing eye protection and unkown to me at the time, my
rifle had excessive headspace.  One case ruptured and
I experienced hot gas in the face.  Fortunately my eyes
were not hurt.  The need for eye/hearing protection
should go without saying, but I still it while working
or shooting at the range.
From: bressler@iftccu.ca.boeing.com (Rick Bressler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Black Powder Dry Firing (was Re: Dry Firing: OK?)
Date: 12 Aug 92 13:33:51 GMT
Organization: Boeing Commercial Airplane Group


To save possible liability problems I'm not going to mention any names,
but I have heard a noted firearms expert claim that you could divide the
big name firearms experts (he used several names that read like a who's
who of the firearms world, you WOULD recognize these names..) as well as
local instructors, (amazingly, none of the local instructors
contradicted him :-), into two groups.  Those who will admit to having
had an AD at home, and liars.

I personally feel that there is a great deal of validity to being
prepared for your weapon to discharge every time you pull the trigger,
even when you don't EXPECT it to.

Rick
From: btree!hale@UCSD.EDU (Bob Hale)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: DCM Garand
Date: 13 Aug 92 15:23:34 GMT
Organization: Brooktree Corporation, San Diego

In article <11AUG199209262375@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov> smpod@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan) writes:
#wwarf@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Wayne J. Warf) writes...
#
#All the blue is there
##except for shop wear on the high spots. The stock looks brand new
##except for a few small storage dings. The rifle is a WW2 vintage Springfield
##dated 3-45 on the barrel. 
#
#Except for the stock, you may have a collector's item. Get a booklet that gives
#a fairly detailed description of various mods. of the Garand and Garand parts. 
#I do not have the title, maybe someone on the net does. A fellow shooter who was
#initially disappointed in that there were some corrosion on his 1943 barrel,
#later learned that his DCM rifle is worth $700. 

Check the stock for an inspection stamp.  If it has a stamp with the
initials of one of the armory inspectors then it's probably a genuine
original stock.

Try "The Fighting Garand Owner's Manual" by Wilson for lots of
information and history about the Garand.

Bob Hale                                      ...!ucsd!btree!hale
...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu                       ...!ucsd!btree!hale@uunet.uu.net
From: sybok@athena.mit.edu (The Rifleman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Colt Sportster/AR-15 Magazine Compatibility?
Date: 20 Aug 92 13:07:37 GMT
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology

In article <1992Aug19.152436.8887@icd.ab.com> kdw@icd.ab.com (Kenneth D. Whitehead) writes:
#I understand that the new "sporterized" version of the AR-15 that
#they only supply a 5 round magazine.  Will extended capacity (i.e.,
#20, 30, 40 round) magazines designed for the AR-15/M16 work in the
#new version of the gun?

Yep.  You can buy these, and even a 90-round drum, from aftermarket suppliers,
 . . . at least until november.


#(I know that this probably sounds like a dumb question, and I'm sure
#the answer is probably yes, which leaves me wondering, why did they
#bother?)

The only dumb question was the one never asked.  Colt did it to 
placate the gummit and the Brady Bunch, who, in the words of Metzenbaum,
think private citizens' guns should hold "fewer clips per round".  (His
words.)
From: bressler@iftccu.ca.boeing.com (Rick Bressler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Stupid shooter tricks
Date: 19 Aug 92 12:39:27 GMT
Organization: Boeing Commercial Airplane Group


Never underestimate the ignorance of new shooters.

There is a rather nice indoor range not too far from the Everett
Washington Boeing plant.  Quite a lot of folks from all over the world
come here to learn about the airplanes that their airlines are buying.
These will often include business people, ground maintenance folks etc.

Since some of these folks come from countries where the only firearms
they see are on TV, they get real excited when they come to America and
find that all they have to do is pay a few bucks and they can even shoot
"Dirty Harry's" gun.

The people at the range are getting used to this, but every once in a
while one sneaks by.  The particular case that sticks in my mind, was
this one fellow who rented one of the new Smith DA 9's.  He fired the
fist shot, but the single action on the second shot confused him.  He
was trying to figure out why the trigger felt different.  In the
process, the turns the gun to look down the barrel.....  Finger still on
the trigger, all ready to fire single action.  I swear he was going to
pull the trigger, when the range officer caught him and the rest of us
got up off the floor....

Rick.
From: btree!hale@UCSD.EDU (Bob Hale)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Sotgun or rifle for defense?
Date: 18 Aug 92 17:14:13 GMT
Organization: Brooktree Corporation, San Diego

In article <1992Aug13.172601.8165@smartstar.com> smrtstr!syspb@uu.psi.com (Paul) writes:
#  Then get an 18 in.
#riot gun barrel.  This gun would be short enough for close quarters.
#The pattern from the riot gun barrel would be wide enough so you
#won't miss.

Obviously Paul hasn't patterned a shotgun with an 18 inch barrel at
short range.  When you are dealing with the distances involved in a
typical defense situation the pattern is typically less than 2 inches
in diameter.  The shotgun must be aimed.

Bob Hale                                      ...!ucsd!btree!hale
...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu                       ...!ucsd!btree!hale@uunet.uu.net
From: roman@wvnvms.wvnet.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Ruger Security Six Price?
Date: 12 Aug 92 23:33:52 GMT
Organization: West Virginia Network for Educational Telecomputing

Can anybody with access to "Gun List" or some other publication that lists
prices of firearms please give me an approximate value for a used Ruger
Security Six .357 (model 717)?  There's a big auction coming up locally,
and I'm interested in the going price for this revolver.  Thanks.
-- Roman Olynyk
From: bercov@bevsun.bev.lbl.gov (John Bercovitz)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: X's on bullets
Date: 12 Aug 92 23:33:56 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory, California

In article <1992Aug11.210553.10981@u.washington.edu> toby@milton.u.washington.edu (Toby Bradshaw) writes:

##Another example could be made of the understabilized .223 round from
##the US military.  Being both high-velocity and understabilized the
##bullet either yaws wildly as above or virtually fragments at sort
##range.  I'm not sure what'll happen with the SS109 rounds.

#All conventional bullets are "understabilized" when flesh, water,
#etc. is the medium in which they travel.  John Bercovitz could
#probably expound on the relative inertia of air vs. other media and
#the effect on bullet stability, as neatly illustrated by the
#tumbling of any bullet when it strikes water.  

Yes, it's quite true that all bullets are grossly understabilized when
in water.  Your rifling would have to look like a fine-pitched thread
for the bullets to stabilize, and then if the bullets could follow that
rifling, they'd blow up as soon as they got out of the barrel due to
"centrifugal" force.  But really the question we're all asking is, "How
long will it take a bullet to tip over once it transits the air/liquid
interface?"  I don't know the answer but I know it's slow in some cases
and fast in others. Factors which will influence this are things like
the polar moment of inertia of the bullet about its transverse axis,
the distance of the tip from the center of gravity, inhomogeneities
in the liquid, asymmetries in the bullet tip whether they were always 
there or whether they were created on impact, and the small restoring
effect of whatever spin the bullet has.  I would call this an imponderable;
you can see the tendencies but practically speaking you'd have to test
to see if a bullet tumbles quickly enough to be useful.

John Bercovitz     (JHBercovitz@lbl.gov)
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 10mm information needed
Date: 23 Aug 92 03:09:34 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

dougnews@access.digex.com (Doug Humphrey) writes:

#I heard that the FBI was going to use (10mm guns), but dropped them.
#Why?  For good, or political reasons?

	They just decided to go with Sig's compact 9mms.  There are no 
compact guns and no Sig products in 10mm caliber, that's all.

#I have heard that they have feeding problems with some ammo.
#Any more than other cartridges?  Anything good or bad about the
#Colt in particular (looks like a 1911 frame to me, which I like).

	There is nothing special about 10mm that would make it any
better or any worse feeding than any other caliber.

#I have heard all sorts of stories that they kick hard with 
#"full power" cartridges, yet it felt softer than my 1911 in
#.45 ACP when I shot it.  

#What do they mean by "full power" and "wimp cartridges" in 10mm.

	The 10mm can be loaded up hotter than .45, but lots of factory 
ammo is milder than .45. 

#Is this cal going to hang around, or just fade away?
	
	It should stay forever as a "second choice" caliber, eclipsed
by .45 and 9mm, but still a good option. 

#How does it look for stopping power, vs. the .40 S&W, 9mm, .45?

	"mild" 10mm is identical to .40 in stopping power, and "full
power" 10mm can't be any worse than .40, certianly.  I would expect
it to do at least as good as +p+ 9mm, and nearly as good as .45.

	The light bullets at high velocity should be the best ones, imo.
You can get 155 grain JHPs that go what, 1300 fps?

#Is this a real weapon, or an "orphan gun" that nobody likes,
#for good reason?

	It's a real gun in a less popular caliber.  .45 is the main
attraction, but .38 Super and 10mm 1911s are still "real guns", in 
every sense.   The prudent buyer would get one of each.  (^8


#Hey, we had to have something other than the traditional
#glock vs. sig wars.  Thanks for any information that you 
#can give me on this.

	That reminds me: When you go back to buy the Delta Elite, get
a Glock 10mm also, post a review.    (^8

Jim Del Vecchio
#Doug Humphrey
#doug@digex.com
#--
From: reid@metis.tti.com (Reid Kneeland)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Hollowpoints illegal in N.J. ?
Date: 12 Aug 92 13:33:41 GMT
Organization: Transaction Technology Inc.

In article <1992Aug3.232758.10856@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com> bhv@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris) writes:

#)3) Hollowpoint bullets have more stopping power, without necessarily being
#)more lethal.  A suspect is better off being shot once with a hollowpoint
#)that stops him in his tracks than being shot repeatedly with
#)non-hollowpoint bullets

#)This makes the objection to hollowpoint bullets as "too lethal" kind of ironic

#A relatively minor quibble.  As I understand it, it is recommended that
#a person fire all the rounds in their weapon anyway - at least if it's
#only six rounds - and then argue in court that they just kept pulling the
#trigger until the gun was empty.

Recommended by whom?  All the books I've seen on the subject say to fire
until the attacker is stopped.  This will (in theory) take fewer shots
if hollowpoints are used.  Shooting beyond that point is not legally
justifiable, in most US uristictions at least.

=====================================================================
Reid Kneeland
reid@ttidca.tti.com  (that's MISTER reid@ttidca.tti.com to you!)
{philabs,psivax,pyramid,quad1,rdlvax,retix,rutgers}!ttidca!reid
Transaction Technology Inc., Santa Monica, CA, USA (310) 450-9111 x2499
The opinions expressed above do not necessarily etc etc...

Never trust a man who can count to 1,023 on his fingers.