Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: twinkie names
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 21:19:15

    Lord Godfrey de Shipbrook wrote:

    =>     A person who failed to identify himself wrote:
    =>
    =>         >     Loresinger (East 10 May #39)
    =
    =How odd that you should say that; your system's *mailer* could find the
    =initials of my mundane name, and my .sig (which contains my SCAdian name)
    =is automatically included at the end of each article.

 My apologies, my lord, but your .sig didn't make it through the
 FidoNet/UUCP gate, and I hate responding to just initials. My "system's
 mailer" is on the other side of the gate, and I have no idea how it
 operates.

     =I only mention this because you appear to be insinuating that I was
     =stating my opinions from behind the veil of anonymity;  I do not fear
     =to stand behind my words, and have never resorted to such cowardice.

 Not at all, and again my apologies if it seemed so.

     => Whether or not it "makes sense", immediate or otherwise, is
     => irrelevant - the question is whether it is "formed in a period
     => manner"? (a variation on this is repeated after each of my response
     => blocks)
     =
     =I do crave your pardon, but in your message (to Master Arval, I believe),
     =you took issue with this class of name specifically because the "random
     =adjective/random noun" combination "makes no immediate (or, often,
     =subsequent) sense to you" (paraphrased).

 On the contrary, the fault was mine - I was under the impression that "in
 the context of period naming practices" was evident from the nature of the
 discussion. Forgive me for not being more specific.

     => They did not compound two nouns to create a name for it, which is a
     => Typical Fantasy Novel Trick. I have no problems with it in a fantasy
     => novel; I (and others) have serious problems with it in the SCA.
     =
     =I shall assume you mean all compound-word names, for the section of your
     =message to which I replied concerned the "random-adjective/random-noun"
     =combination -- by your own words -- not noun-noun combinations.

 Specifically, I meant all compounds artificially created for terms that
 would have had a simple name in period cultures - "loresinger" for "bard"
 (or "poet", going back to the Greeks) is a good example. ["Farspeaker" for
 "phone" is an analogous usage from modern SCA-speak, prompted (I suspect)
 by the same impulse to prefer the "exotic" over the familiar, even when
 the familiar is accurate and the "exotic" is coined.]

     =Bearing this in mind, I ask:  what then, of Wytepintell, Wykdechire,
     =Trussloue, Sacchespee, Briselanse, and the other *ACTUAL PERIOD COMPOUND
     =EPITHETS* that Master Arval posted?
     =
     =Just because it's often done in fantasy novels doesn't mean that it's
     =inauthentic...

 And I have no problem, as I have explained at length, with terms that are
 documented. Although I have made quite a study of medieval culture, both
 within the academic world and without, I do not pretend to Know It All.
 "Documentation trumps everything", as we say in the CoA. However, names
 follow patterns, and fantasy novel names have patterns likewise; and if
 something fits that particular pattern, then it is (and I think righfully
 so) subjected to stricter scrutiny than would otherwise be the case.

     >  If you bothered
     >  to look into the subject (heavens, what a thought)

     Ah, you're doing MORE than insinuating.  You're being BLATANTLY insulting.

 Well, you appeared not to have looked into the subject. Reading your
 message again, I am still of the opinion that that was a reasonable
 judgment to make. I did not intend to be BLATANTLY insulting, merely
 somewhat sarcastic. If you were BLATANTLY insulted, then I beg your
 pardon.

     > you would find that
     > "hordes" were named after colors, not metals.

     Can you quote some sources for this statement, please?

 Certainly. The term "horde" comes through Polish from the Turkish word for
 "camp" (ordu). [Oxford English Dictionary] I know of two Hordes in period:
 the Golden Horde of the Kipchaks, and the much later White Horde of the
 Krim Tatars. [Shepherd's Historical Atlas] Do you know of any others?

    Tadhg, Hanaper

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
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