From: donz@uiunix.ui.org (Don Zirilli)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.poems
Subject: Re: Instead
Date: 6 Jan 93 03:55:51 GMT
Organization: UNIX International, Parsippany, NJ  07054

Contents:

1- response to Marek, which includes ideas on what makes a poem good and 
the process of composing a poem.

2- response to satan, which includes ideas on the dynamics of rap.

WARNING:  no new poetry.

Posthumous O'Toole writes:
>>>
>>>		Instead of Growing Old With You
>>>		----------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>		I wish my lips to touch your eye
>>>		Where flowers I placed in your hair
>>>		Who bargain for shadows that lie
>>>		On your face would not their darkness dare.

Marek responds:
>>
>>Remarkably bad piece of writing.  Are you mocking someone or is this
>>sincere?  

sincere.  most if not all of my poems are sincere, if by that you mean I try
to write them well.

Marek continues:

Pending answer I leave listing the (obvious) flaws to fellow
>>rappers.  More generally -- why write just to annoy?  Surely one can write
>>to annoy in style? :)

These last questions need not be answered, since I was not writing to annoy.
I'm not sure why you think it's bad, but I do have my theories:

reason #1 - it rhymes, but the meter is awkward.  This sets off the "bad
poetry" bell in many people's heads.

reason #2 - it is "romantic," even including a reference to the cliche of
kissing one's eye.

reason #3 - you had trouble figuring out the meaning of the metaphor (or
conceit) of lines 3 and 4 and therefore decided the poem was obscure.  We
know you do not like obscurity from your chastisements of Alex Karan and/or
his poems.


my responses to these reasons (which Marek has so graciously allowed me to
fabricate, since he did not supply them himself) are as follows:

to reason #1 - I believe the awkward meter gives the lines an interesting
sound.  The meter is tetrameter trimeter trimeter tetrameter, all iambic
with significant irregularities.  I think the awkwardness of the sound
combines well with the strangeness of the conceit (see reason #3).

to reason #2 - I plead guilty.  The title puts it in the Marvell tradition 
of pleading "carpe diem" in the name of seduction (for non-English majors,
the tradition of saying "live for today" in order to bed a woman).  I don't
think there's anything wrong with participating in an old tradition if I
do something interesting with it.

to reason #3 - the conceit is contained in the phrase "Who bargain for 
shadows that lie/On your face" and is in reference to flowers.  Her face,
which we know is considered exalted from all the other poems of this ken,
is so popular with the flowers that they would even argue over who gets
to cast a shadow on it.  The further conceit is that though they wish
to touch her fair skin with shadow, they dare not touch the eye.  The 
reader can provide whatever reasons he/she will, but there are fairly
obvious ones, since the eye has also been exalted in poems such as this.
I believe the weirdness of this conceit, or what Marek might call its
obscurity, saves the poem from being too mushy.  i.e., flaw #3 counteracts
flaw #2, much like the dangerous Sodium and Chloride combining to make
salt.  flaw #1 also counteracts flaw #2 and as I said combines well with
flaw #3.

Posting this defense will of course open me to charges of hypocrisy, since
in the past I've said that I wouldn't post for the sake of my ego.  I can
only say that I thought making these points would be relevant to the group.
And if Marek responds it will probably reveal quite a bit about his ideas
of what makes poetry good or bad, which will also be useful to the group.  
A healthy exchange.  If it becomes a flamewar, I promise to keep it in
email.

satan writes:
>
>I disagree with Marek, but i'm sure in his 'infinite wisdom' he can point 
>out several 'flaws' (according to him and whatever poetry establishment 
>he cares to quote). 

yes, I hope he does point these out, along with anyone else who sees flaws
and can talk intelligently about them.  I'd really like to know Phillip's
opinion f'rinstance, since he has shown mastery of rhyme and meter.
>
>The thing that sometimes annoys me about the posted criticism on this group,
>is though it is honest (which is important) it is often tactless.  The 
>object of criticism is not to crush the ego of the writer (and it isn't to
>inflate it either).  It's is to point out flaws and areas for improvement.
>Need we open our criticisms with statements like "remarkably bad piece of 
>writing."  
>			
Personally, I can say that my ego is not easily crushed.  Candlestick, among
others, can attest to its robustness.  I don't like seeing people hurt, but
I really can't take people too seriously who have such fragile egos that they
can be crushed by someone they don't even know remarking about something
they've written.  Usually, the real problem is with the hurtee.  I know that
poetry is something some people feel especially vulnerable about, but such
people often never show there poems to anyone.  They are wise not to do so,
for they understand their own limitations.  I myself am usually gentle with
someone's poetry, but I will not chastise those who are not, simply because
they so often get good discussion started and get people thinking.  One can
drown in politeness--it is a form of bureaucracy.  Instead of filling out
forms to get something done, one has to speak x number of platitudes and
surround all their meanings with them.
>
>  My only comment/question (which i emailed to the 
>author, is whether or not 'bargain' in the third line should be 
>'bargained.'
>

No I like keeping it in present because it makes the shadows move or at
least shimmer somewhat since they're still bargaining.  I know 'bargained'
makes it easier to digest, but I never was much of a chef.  Thank you for
making a concrete comment, though.  Bringing up this issue caused me to
think about it more and helps my appreciation of my own poem.  Thanks.
>
>
>-satan
>
Your servant,

Posthumous O'Toole, Defender of the Realm

-- 
Chucklehead awaits the return of his .sig

Aaron Radomski, where are you???
Newsgroups: rec.arts.poems