From: sbgreene@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Steven Greene)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 14:09:44 GMT

In article <1992Sep4.024603.18373@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:
>And why is the above appropriate for rec.scouting?  BSA doesn't
>define "spouses", "survivors", or "dependents".
>-- 

I've stayed out of this debate recently, partly because, even though
I care about it a lot, it's gotten rather tedious of late, and partly
because every time Stan or someone else has said something outrageous,
someone with more stamina than I has responded promptly.  But, for
the record, here's an example of the BSA effectively defining "spouse":

[P.S. Stan, that was a nice trick with the follow-up line, but if there's
one thing we fags are, it's devious. ;-)  At least I didn't change the
subject line.]



GAY ISSUE RILES LOCAL SCOUTS
Pack's shunning of gay dad's lover raises rights issue

by David Eddy 

San Luis Obispo, California Telegram-Tribune 

March 28, 1992

Boy Scout leaders say they will call the police if an Oceano man  
brings his gay lover to any more Cub Scout pack meetings.  Having the  
two men at pack meetings is a "disruptive influence," according to  
Tim Chamberlain, scout executive for the Santa Lucia Area Council of  
the Boy Scouts of America, which covers San Luis Obispo County.

"He wouldn't hesitate a minute (to call the police)," Chamberlain  
said of Cubmaster Michael Creath of Pack 419.  Creath could not be  
reached for comment.

The problems surfaced last weekend, when Abraham Valencia brought his  
live-in companion to a Cub Scout camp-out that two of his sons were  
attending at Camp French.  Valencia has one other son, and has had  
sole custody of the three boys for the past four years.

The two men were only going to stay for dinner, said Valencia,  
"because we respect their (pack leaders') homophobia."

But Cub Scout leaders wouldn't let the partner stay.  According to  
Valencia, they said they'd received their direction from the national  
headquarters of Boy Scouts of America in Dallas, Texas.

When contacted, Chamberlain read the scouts' position statement: "The  
Boy Scouts of America have emphasized traditional family values since  
the inception of the movement.  We believe homosexuals do not provide  
a role model for scouts that is consistent with these traditional  
values.  Accordingly, the Boy Scouts of America does not accept  
homosexuals as members or leaders."

Though Valencia's partner is neither a member nor a leader, his  
presence clearly flies in the face of the Boy Scouts' position, said  
Chamberlain, and would be disruptive.

"If people are going to grandstand and express opinions contrary to  
the Boy Scouts of America, he (Creath) has the right to uphold  
order."  Chamberlain emphasized that Valencia, as a parent, is  
welcome to come.  But his partner is not.

The conflict reached the boiling point Wednesday night when Valencia  
and his partner took the two Cub Scouts, 11-year-old Kevin and  
8-year-old Isaac, to the pinewood derby races at North Oceano  
Elementary School.

Valencia's partner was told he had to leave.  (The partner would not  
reveal his name, because he said the publicity might hurt his chance  
of getting a job.) "It got real nasty," said Valencia.  "I was in the  
Army 10 years, and I can cuss quite a bit."

If Valencia's partner was not welcome, the boys said they would leave  
too.  But when they got home, Kevin said he got to thinking that the  
situation was like that of Rosa Parks, a black woman who played a key  
role in the civil rights movement.

"It's like Mike (Creath) was white, and us being blacks and not  
willing to give up our seats on the bus," said Kevin.  So they all  
marched back to the meeting and Valencia's partner was allowed to  
stay.  But they were told he would not be welcome again.  Valencia's  
partner said he kept quiet.

"I was already too disgusted to say anything.  I don't see why it's a  
problem for me to see what (Kevin and Isaac) are doing in the Cub  
Scouts," he said. Valencia said his partner is very involved in the  
boys' day-to-day lives, and functions much as a parent would, making  
their lunches, making sure they brush their teeth, and so on.

Going to the meetings and sharing in the boys' achievements is just  
another normal part of life.  "Besides," said the partner.  "It's not  
like we're going to /do/ anything."  Indeed, Valencia said that while  
he and his partner haven't even asked to go on camping trips, Creath  
has brought his girlfriend along on such outings.  If morality is the  
issue, said Valencia, how can the scouts justify that behavior?

Chamberlain said he wasn't aware of that and couldn't comment.  The  
Boy Scouts of America have no policy on it, he said.

There's one other aspect of the situation that bothers Valencia.   
While he doesn't have a problem with his partner being barred from  
meetings at the cubmaster's home or any other private property, he  
doesn't think it's right to banish the man from pack meetings at  
North Oceano Elementary School.

Scott Lathrop, assistant superintendent of business for the Lucia Mar  
School District, said he doesn't know whether Valencia's partner can  
be barred from attending meetings at the school.  On one hand, the  
district certainly can't discriminate against anyone.  On the other,  
the state Education Code mandates that the district make the school  
available to the scouts.

"We're between a rock and a hard place," he said.  Lathrop said the  
district's legal counsel is researching the matter, and should have  
an answer next week. If the district decides Valencia's partner must  
be admitted, Chamberlain said the pack will simply meet on private  
property.

There is one thing that puzzles Valencia.  He said there had never  
been a problem with his partner attending meetings until just  
recently.  Just a month ago, the two men attended the Blue and Gold  
dinner, an annual scouting event, and no one said a word, Valencia  
related.  And that's despite the fact that Creath and other parents  
knew the men were gay.

Valencia said the problems began -- and he claims Creath confirmed it  
-- after Valencia's oldest son, 13-year-old Paul, spoke out in public  
about his father's homosexuality and was quoted in the next day's  
Telegram-Tribune.

Paul Valencia stood up at the March 3 city council hearing on San  
Luis Obispo's gay rights law and said neither his father nor the rest  
of the family should have to suffer because his father is gay.

"This is not what justice is all about in this society," said Paul,  
who is not gay.  "The law should be passed because children of gay  
and lesbian parents should not be subjected to discrimination."

Despite his plea, the law failed to pass.  And because of it, his two  
younger brothers probably won't be Cub Scouts much longer.

The two boys say they love scouting, but if it's a choice between  
remaining Cub Scouts and putting up with discrimination, or standing  
by their father's partner, they'll choose the latter.

"It sounds like he (Creath) is trying to put up a big brick wall  
around him like he doesn't exist," said Kevin, nodding at his  
father's partner.  "That's not right."  

Xref: sparky rec.scouting:2591 alt.discrimination:3992 chi.general:864 alt.atheism:15920 alt.politics.homosexuality:5528