HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bickis@skmath3.usask.ca ("M. Bickis")
Subject: Re: Women's and men's safety
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada
Date: 21 Dec 92 23:39:13 GMT

In article <1gidosINNprq@agate.berkeley.edu> vanhoek@bend.UCSD.EDU
(Karen van Hoek) writes:

>I live in Ann Arbor, a very nice town; my male friends all feel safe
>walking in many parts of it at almost all hours.  I don't. ~~~~

Is the issue really about *feeling* safe as opposed to *being* safe?
Statistically speaking, are women really more at risk from assault by
strangers than are men? (This is not a rhetorical question, but I
don't know what the answer is.)  Or maybe men also don't feel that
safe, but are unwilling to admit their fear?

I hope I am not trivializing this real factor in women's lives.  I
just wonder if this fear is more like fear of flying, based on a
psychological *perception* of risk, or like fear of cigarettes, based
on *actual* risk?  Can the streets be made safer for women, or can
women decide (as men do) that the benefits outweigh the risks?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>bickis@math.usask.ca<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Mik Bickis       \,,,       .*#*.  \    University of Saskatchewan
Department of        \,,,  ^\\|//^  ```\   Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
Mathematics & Statistics \   )|(        ```\   Canada      S7N 0W0
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<S|A|S|K|A|T|C|H|E|W|A|N|>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


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From: VNASMAN@falcon.aamrl.wpafb.af.MIL (Tori)
Subject: criticism
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Date: 2 Jan 93 05:28:29 GMT

If I hear someone criticizing something about feminist strategy,
philosophy, viewpoint, politics ... WHATEVER ... I do not "merely
categorize" her/him.  I consider the argument as I would any other.
Are its premises valid?  Does it depend upon prejudiced assumption?
Is it logically consistent?  Etc.

If it fails any one such test, I judge the argument as inadequate.
And I counter-argue.

And if the critic in question must whine and divert attention from the
issues of argument, then and only then do I allow myself the luxury of
merely categorizing her or him ... because defensive posturing just
makes me cranky that way.  :)

Meanwhile, some arguments hold up -- as a recent example, I'd say that
Carol Tavris' criticisms against the polarities imposed by
"ecofeminism" are legitimate and well-reasoned.  (see _The Mismeasure
of Woman_) It helps, of course, that Tavris is specific in her
arguments and does not paint all feminists and all of feminist theory
as blameworthy.  Nor does she feel the need to accuse, slam,
trivialize, or indict.

"Just" an observation.

Tori


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From: tovah@panix.com (Tovah Hollander)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Motivations for Gender-Neutral Terminology
Date: 22 Dec 1992 08:10:09 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix, NYC
Distribution: world
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Robert H Brueckner writes:

>And while I concede that this may be an important issue for some,
>please forgive me if I don't deem it *as* important as, say, the
>eradication of hunger, the protection of the environment, equal pay
>for women in equal jobs, the elimination of war, the plight of the
>homeless, or the threat of giant asteroids striking the earth.

Okay, Robert, tell you what.  Let's split up the work.  *You* take care
of getting rid of hunger, cleaning up the environment, equal pay, universal
peace, and housing for all (not forgetting those asteroids), and *I*'ll
take care that my use of language is as inclusive as possible.  That way,
none of the important problems gets ignored.

-- 
Tovah Hollander
tovah@panix.com -or- tovah@onion.salad.mssm.edu



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From: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Mythopoetic ritual (a pos
Followup-To: soc.feminism
Date: 27 Dec 1992 07:30:14 GMT
Organization: Ministry of Silly Walks
Distribution: world
Reply-To: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
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In article <1h51fhINNfga@agate.berkeley.edu> 
 Will Steeves <goid@zooid.guild.org> writes:
>It seems, given this remark and some of the others you made later on in this
>message, that you rather resent the exclusion of women.  To this, I'd respond
>with an inquiry of sorts - Were men not also excluded from Judy Chicago's
>notorious and celebrated exposition of female-genitals-on-dinner-plates?  (I
>was under the impression that men *had* been excluded, though I could be
>mistaken...). [...]

You are mistaken. I attended the exhibition of The Dinner Party twice while
it was in Chicago. While The Dinner Party was primarally by and about women,
it is not a particularly good example of seperatism. Men are listed among
the artists who contributed to its creation. I found nothing of a divisive
or exclusionary spirit associated with any part of it, only a celebration
of women's history.

-- 
 Albert Lunde         | Interfaith  |     *Y*Y*      "A branch on the
 Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu |  Bisexual   |      *Y*        tree of life"
                      |  Feminist   |.......|.........................


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From: uunet!infmx!hartman@ncar.UCAR.EDU (Robert Hartman)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Shaming men's sexuality
Date: 22 Dec 1992 20:07:29 GMT
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.
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In article <1gnlqpINNpn4@agate.berkeley.edu> goid@zooid.guild.org (Will Steeves) writes:
>[Moderator's note: excessive included text trimmed.]
>
>vanhoek@bend.UCSD.EDU (Karen van Hoek) writes...
>KVH> My overall point is that it really is true that some feminists
>KVH> seem to think it's open season on men, especially with regards
>                                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>KVH> to men's sexuality.
>
>It's interesting that you mention this, Karen.  This is also a sentiment
>echoed in "Pornography: The Other Side" by Prof. Ferrel M. Christensen,
>of the University of Alberta, and also the President of the organisation
>MERGE.
>
>It was his opinion, in large part supported by his research, that many
>anti-pornography feminists are in some sense opposing male sexuality,
>rather than merely the depiction of women as "sexual objects," 

I've heard this sentiment expressed quite clearly by some feminists as
well.  I find it very disheartening when I hear it; I also understand
that people who have certain views aren't good for me to associate
with.  I leave people with such views strictly alone (which is probably
a relief to all concerned).

Perhaps the panicky reaction from men as regards pornography has to do
with a fear that it is "male sexuality" that is in fact being objected
to.

-r


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From: bickis@skmath3.usask.ca ("M. Bickis")
Subject: Re: Motivations for Gender-Neutral Terminology
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada
Date: 22 Dec 92 00:04:39 GMT

In article <BzBnBv.3yv@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> bgarfink@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
(beth diane garfinkel) writes:

>Often, this is actually a matter of translation.  For example, in
>German, there is a word Mensch; when German writings including this word
>are translated into English, Mensch is almost always rendered as "man."
>It actually [please correct me if I'm wrong] means "human being," and I
>believe that it's neuter, "das Mensch," in which case it would imply
>nothing about gender at all.

It's der Mensch, making it a masculine noun, but you're right that it
does not imply anything about the *sex* of the person designated.  The
german words for 'girl', 'Frauelein' and 'Maedchen', however, are both
neuter.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>bickis@math.usask.ca<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Mik Bickis       \,,,       .*#*.  \    University of Saskatchewan
Department of        \,,,  ^\\|//^  ```\   Saskatoon, Saskatchewan
Mathematics & Statistics \   )|(        ```\   Canada      S7N 0W0
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<S|A|S|K|A|T|C|H|E|W|A|N|>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


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From: andyw@meaddata.COM (Andy Welter)
Subject: Re: Women's and men's safety
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Reply-To: andyw@meaddata.COM
Organization: Mead Data Central, Dayton OH
Date: 2 Jan 93 05:20:31 GMT

I think part of the difference in fear about violence between men and
women is just a difference in attitude about getting hurt.  This is
not a scientific survey, but men just seem to be more accepting of
personal risk than women.

When you look at things like skydiving, whitewater rafting, bungee
jumping, sports you can get hurt playing, etc, men seem to be more
tolerant of a given level of risk than women would be.  When you
couple that attitude with a situation where there really is a
difference in safety between men and women (walking in bad
neighborhoods) you end up with a really big diffence in your perceived
level of safety.

I think the issue that needs to be addressed is actual measurable
differences in safety, not what peoples FEELINGs are.


---
|Andrew Welter	     |  All views are mine and not |      (513) 865-6822
|Mead Data Central   |    that of my employer      |      pd&o-ps-ts-dsp
|P.O. Box 933        |                             |     andyw@meaddata.com
|Dayton, Ohio  45401 |          	           | ...!uunet!meaddata!andyw


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From: gds@ficus.cs.ucla.EDU (Greg Skinner)
Subject: Re: Women's and men's safety
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: in your face!
Date: 21 Dec 92 23:50:08 GMT

In article <g9T=D-B@engin.umich.edu> David Snearline writes:

>But, just because I think the disparity in safety is exaggerated, it
>doesn't mean that I believe it does not exist.  And I think that
>means that men need to work together with women to make things safer.

In general, I think you have good suggestions, except for

>This means crossing to the opposite side of the street at night if a
>woman is coming from the opposite direction, to make her feel more
>comfortable.

If all men did this, not only would it look silly, it would only call
attention to the problem without offering a practical solution or
giving women a chance to feel empowered.  If instead, men just minded
their business as they walked by a woman, or just gave a passing nod,
women could feel more empowered, IMHO.

--gregbo

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From: levine@symcom.math.uiuc.edu (Lenore Levine)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Version Five -- I better shut up!
Date: 27 Dec 1992 07:32:14 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Distribution: world
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gazit@cs.duke.edu (Hillel Gazit) writes:

>In article <199212212056.AA24308@altair.math.uiuc.edu> 
>levine@symcom.math.uiuc.EDU (Lenore Levine) writes:

>>I think the fourth category of antifeminist posters is not as obvious.
>>I suspect that many of the male posters, complaining how they
>>have been mistreated (on the job, in academia, or in the courts),
>>actually have been. They are wrong only when they attribute this
>>mistreatment to women (in general), affirmative action, or feminism.

>How do you know?

>What do you know about my life that you can say so surely that I'm 
>wrong when I say that I was discriminated against by affirmative action?

Read more closely. I did not say that any *specific* poster was wrong,
when they said they were discriminated against by affirmative action.

I said that I *suspected* *many* of them were wrong -- but wrong for
reasons not particularly to their discredit. 

I certainly know of at least one case where these suspicions are *very*
likely to have a base in reality. (A friend of a friend lost custody
of his child to a slick female user, and attributed the loss to
discrimination against males. I observed that this person was very
inarticulate and socially inept; and for these reasons, I suspected he
was more the victim of an imperceptive judge than a sexist judge.)

By the way, turn about is fair play. I think that some women who
complain about sexism in the business world, just don't know how
to defend themselves against backstabbers.

Hillel, can you really deny that people in this culture fall too quickly
for a slick sound byte? That they too often evaluate a situation by 
appearances, and do not take the time to find out what is really
happening?

Lenore Levine


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From: km9985@csc.albany.edu (MADIGAN KEVIN M)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Faludi
Date: 22 Dec 1992 22:27:30 GMT
Organization: State University of New York at Albany
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The only thing that I know about Susan Faludi is that she wrote "Backlash"
and likes to go on talk shows. Could someone please fill me in on who this
woman is, i.e., has she written anything else, what kind of work has she
been involved in, etc.

Thanks,
Kevin Madigan




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From: Steven Timm <st0o+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Women's Health Clinics
Date: 3 Jan 1993 21:36:45 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
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I have a friend from South Africa who is a member of the ANC women's
collective.  She would like to spend some time in the United States
learning about how to run women's health clinics and rape crisis centers.
Who are some people or organizations to contact about this?

Please respond via E-mail.


Thanks a lot,

Steve Timm



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From: falcao@felix.metaphor.COM (Ronnie Falcao)
Subject: Negotiated behavior as weapon?
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: Metaphor Computer Systems, Mountain View, CA
Date: 23 Dec 92 18:14:35 GMT

Robert Hartman (uunet!infmx!hartman@ncar.UCAR.EDU) writes:
> [Deleted text.]
>Although one cannot compare this with the trauma of rape, it is also
>true that when women use the conditional rationing of sexual favors as
>a means to control the behavior of men--as our "glorious" culture
>prescribes--female sexuality is also being used as a weapon.  To me,
>this is one of the legitimate grievances men do have.  But please note
>clearly that I am talking about _behavior_ sanctioned by _conventional_
>_women's_culture,_ not _women._

Weapons are used to injure people or threaten them with injury
so as to force them to do things involuntarily.

Controlling how and when someone expresses their own sexuality
does not seem like using a weapon to me.  As far as I can tell,
you're talking about a negotiated relationship.  Would you also
call the male side of the negotiation (conditional rationing of
certain behaviors to control the sexual behavior of women)
using a weapon?

Although I can understand that normally socialized males
may be frustrated that normally socialized females aren't as
sexually available as they'd like them to be, is this so
very different from the frustration that normally socialized
females feel about the emotional unavailability of normally
socialized males?

Although you claim not to be comparing rape with "normal"
behavior, I find the quoted paragraph very disturbing.
After all, if it's true that a woman is using a weapon in
declining to participate in sex, and a man is legitimately
grieved by this, then maybe it's fair play for him to use
his weapon and rape her.

I hope I've misunderstood what you meant.

	- Ronnie

falcao@metaphor.com

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From: bostrov@engr.orst.edu (Vareck Bostrom)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Women's and men's safety
Date: 22 Dec 1992 16:22:04 GMT
Organization: College of Engineering, Oregon State University
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In article <JULIE.92Dec16180834@cucbs.chem.columbia.edu> julie (Julie Wright) writes:
>biesel@javelin.sim.es.com (Heiner Biesel) writes:
>
>>vanhoek@bend.UCSD.EDU (Karen van Hoek) writes:
>
>As you point out above, the risk is _dependent on behavior_.  If men are
>much more likely than women to venture out alone, or at night, or in high-
>crime areas, and the statistics indicate that in spite of their lower-risk
>behavior women are _still_ about as likely to be crime victims, it seems
>obvious to me that women are at higher risk than men for equivalent 
>behavior.  In other words, your statement that "the probability that you
>will experience violence can be estimated from the general incidence of
>violence toward women in the area" _assumes_ that she will _behave_ like
>the average woman in the area; yet you compare the crime statistics as
>if the average man and woman in the area behaved identically, an idea
>which I find laughable, and say that this demonstrates she should behave
>like the average man, since she won't be at any greater risk than he is.
>

As a personal and therefore skewed example, my sister jogs late at night
all the time (if you would call 11 to 12 pm late at night) , sometime
alone and unarmed and has never been attacked for three and a half years of
jogging. When I go out late at night I always go with a friend or armed, and
even armed I feel that tightness in my stomach - that fear that the large,
scruffy looking man approaching the stoplight I am waiting to cross the
street will attack me. I fear enough to break out in a sweat, and I have feared
enough to want to pull my gun (the one time I actually thought I needed it
I had left it at home..turned out all the guy wanted was the time, even though
 he followed me for ten minutes). Point is,
even in a nice safe city like corvallis, even men can be fearfull of walking
alone at night. Judging by my sister's conversation, she is just about as
fearfull..somewhat, but not so much that we have stopped going out at night.

- bostrov
"The Fearless One"


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From: mara@panix.COM (Mara Chibnik)
Subject: Re: The BEM Test
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: (getting there)
Date: 2 Jan 93 05:18:55 GMT

levine@symcom.math.uiuc.edu (Lenore Levine) asks about the Bem Test.
(It is named for its designer, Sandra Bem.  If I had more books
unpacked I'd look up references.)

 >This test lists sixty adjectives that refer to human beings, some
 >"masculine," some "feminine," and some neutral (but you don't know
 >which are which until you complete the test). You are asked how well
 >these adjectives describe you; and whether you assign yourself a
 >preponderance of masculine or feminine adjectives, determines your
 >"sex type."

It is my recollection that this "sex type" is understood by Bem to
be a kind of social construction.  That is, the test measures
conformity to expectations and nothing more (or less) profound than
that.

 >The fact that I found this test, suggests that it was in use some time
 >in the past ten years. I am curious when and how it was devised, whether
 >it's still in use, and for what clients it's intended.

Lenore, if you haven't had a reasonably complete answer in a couple
of weeks, please send me email and repeat this question.  By then
I should have unearthed my references.

 >Following are the adjectives of significance in this test.
 >Feminine: yielding, cheerful, shy [etc.]
 >Masculine: self-reliant, defends own beliefs, independent, [etc.]
 >I urge you to draw your own conclusions from this test.

And I suggest that you consider the context more completely before
you do so.  One of the conclusions that I recall from Bem's writing
was that she used the test to divide people into four different
types on the basis of their "Bem-scale scores."  These are
masculine, feminine, androgynous and neuter.  I seem to recall (but
I'm not sure about this, and it may have been a use to which Bem's
work was put by a later researcher) some work correlating people
with similar Bem-scale scores on other grounds, irrespective of the
physiological sex or of the gender-identity of the subjects.

--

  Mara Chibnik
  mara@panix.com                Life is too important to be taken seriously.



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