Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: stephenp@cix.compulink.co.uk (Stephen Phillips)
Subject: Re: Conversion Question
Cc: stephenp@cix.compulink.co.uk
Reply-To: stephenp@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 14:17:00 +0000


> +From         : stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger)
> +Subject      : Re: Conversion Question
> 
> >>     1.  Orthodox Jews do not "own" our religion; theirs is but
> >>         one legitimate INTERPRETATION of what God expects from
> >>         all of us Jews!
> 
> >Nobody "owns" a religion. But for 3,000 odd years the Orthodox
> >"interpretation" as you put it has been the one that has been
> >universally accepted (apart from a few breakaway groups like the
> >Saducees and Karaites). I think that the Orthodox are quite justified
> >in maintaining that 3,000 odd years tradition.
> 
> I don't think so.  Orthodox Judaism, today, is just one of the evolutionary
> paths that our religion took.  It is not THE path; it is not the ONLY
> path.

Torah true Judaism is THE only path. Anything that rejects its
legitimacy is not the correct path.


>
> >>     2.  In justifying the legitimacy of the Conservative and
> >>         Reform movements, we do NOT have to show consistency
> >>         with the Orthodox INTERPRETATION of our Law; after all,
> >>         who died and made them boss?
> 
> >O.K., but then don't expect the Orthodox to go along with the
> >Conservative and Reform interpretations and certainly don't get upset
> >when they don't.
> 
> No problem here; I don't agree with the Reform interpretation of our
> common law, but I do respect their right to believe that it's what
> Judaism expects of its adherents.

Anyone can believe what they like. We have, after all, been given
free will. I reserve the right, however, not to respect certain
beliefs.


>
> >>     3.  While there may be some issues regarding the Reform
> >>         definition of who is a Jew, and these are issues that
> >>         ALL Jews need to work out, to the satisfaction of
> >>         ALL Jews, there is be NO REASON whatsoever for Jews
> >>         of all sects to refuse to accept a convert from a Bet
> >>         Din of Conservative Rabbis.
> >
> >The reasons are quite clear. First, they don't accept Torah Mi'Sinai
> >(ie. both the written and oral Torah) completely and secondly they
> >don't feel bound by ALL the Mitzvos (a sine qua non in conversion).
> 
> We most certainly to accept the Torah that God gave to ALL of us; just
> because we don't accept some of your INTERPRETATIONS doesn't mean that
> we don't accept His Law.

That's just it. You don't accept the binding authority of the Torah
She'Ba'al Peh (Oral Torah).

>
> As far as the ALL the Mitzvot, even Orthodox don't observe ALL the
> mitzvot that are listed in His Torah.  Of course you rationalize them
> away, but what it comes down to is that what you observe is one of several
> valid, legitimate interpretations of what obeying God's Word of 3000+ years
> ago means today.  I mean, in the last 50 years or so-
> 
>     1.  How many of you Orthodox brought your sacrifices to the
>         Kohanim?

Don't be ridiculous. The laws of sacrifices only apply where there is
a Beis Hamikdash, may it be rebuilt Bimheiroh Beyomeinu.


>     2.  How many of you who claim to be Kohanim performed the sacrifices
>         listed in His Torah?

Ditto.

>     3.  How many of you married your brother's widow?

The Torah gives the option of Chalitzah, which is practised even
nowadays.


>     4.  How many of you returned your property to its original owner?

I have, especially at my kids school where I often find some kid's
school bag laying on the ground, left and forgotten about.

>
>     5.  How many of you who farm for a hobby let your fields lie idle
>         one year o within the last 7 years?

I'm not a farmer, nor do I live in Israel where the laws of Shemittah
apply. But there are Orthodox farmers in Israel who do observe such
laws.



>     6.  How many of you have worn the "thread of blue" that the Torah
>         requires of us?

There are those who claim to know the source for the blue colouring
and so do wear it.


> In short, when the Orthodox claim to be observing ALL the Mitzvot, what
> they are really claiming is that they are observing the Mitzvot as
> they are defined for the current time, and that goes back to point 1
> of my posting about their claiming to "own" our religion to the exclusion
> of other equally legitimate interpretations of it.   I can't speak
> for the Reform, but the Conservative Movement, like Orthodox Judaism,
> is based on observing His Law to us, as defined and interpreted for
> the current time.


I really cannot understand your argument. But let me ask you this; if
there were a Beis Hamikdash today, would the Conservative movement
take part in its ceremonies (sacrifices, etc.)?


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Stephen (Yisroel) Phillips      Tel: 44-895-442141
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