From: adams@spss.com (Steve Adams)
Subject: Re: Homosexuality and Christianity
Date: 16 Apr 92 13:33:41 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: SPSS Inc.

hudson@athena.cs.uga.edu (Paul Hudson Jr) writes:

>In article <adams.703342780@spssig> adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes:
>>hudson@athena.cs.uga.edu (Paul Hudson Jr) writes:

>>Comparing animate, souled people with souless animals or inanimate objects.
>>There is no comparison.

>Peter compares the false teachers to souless animals, but that is beside
>the point.  The point is that marriage as ordained by God in the Scriptures
>is between a man and a woman.  This does not apply to homosexual marriages
>because,
>1.  Marriage as ordained by God is between a man and a woman.
>2.  Sex acts between a man and a woman are condemned in the Scriptures.
??  I think you mean man and man in part 2, or am I missing something?

Again, I say, that there is no Scriptural support or condemnation of
homosexual marriage.

>It is from the law that we learn what marriage as God intended it is (Genesis)
>and in the law homosex is condemned.  It is also condemened in the New 
>Testament.  (e.g. Romans 1:25-28)
I wrote about this in another post, basically saying that Paul condemned
lust and fornication.  He also appears to be condemning HETEROSEXUALS who
had sex with men.  Notice that he says 'normal' relations.  Normal
relations for homosexual men would be with other men.

>Also notice that becoming one flesh is related to the sex act between a
>man and a woman.
That's true as far as it goes, but you cannot thereby extrapolate into
saying that just because is't not in the Bible, it's not permitted.  TV
isn't in the Bible...is it permitted?  And so on.  The silence of the book
on any particular action leaves that action open to the interpretation of
men, which will always fall short.  We cannot ever hope to know the mind of
God while confined to our mortal bodies...

>(I quote from the KJV because I carry a Gideon NT, and that is the only
>version I have with me.)

>Matthew 19:4-6,

>And He answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that He wich made them
>at the begenning made them male and female,
>And said, For this cause shall a MAN leave his father and mother and shall
>cleave unto his WIFE, and they twain shall be one flesh?
>Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh.  What therefore God hath
>joined together, let not man put asunder.
Bzzzt.  Out of context.  The previous verses show that this was in response
to a question about divorce.  And the following verses answer that
question.  You can't just yany 3 verses out of the middle of a dialogue
like this.  The context was divorce.  And the exact question was 'Is it
lawfull for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason'(verse 3).
Thus, you can't use this answer about DIVORCE as a complete answer about
marriage.

>>Firstly, these items are condemned in Leviticus.  I reiterate that
>>Leviticus does not apply to Gentiles.  It applies to Jews only.  Gentiles
>>are required to follow the Noahide Covenant.

>Notice that one of the seven principles of the Noachide covenant is to 
>abstain from sexual immorality, pornea.
Yeah...define sexual immorality...using the Bible.  I don't see any
prohibitions against oral sex, or, for that matter, any other type of sex
between married couples (except in Lev, where having sex with your wife
during her menses leads to banishment from your people!).

>Christian Gentiles should submit, not only to the Noachide commands, but
>also to the teachings of the apostles.  For example, we are not to 
>get drunk, we are to be humble.  Loving ones neighbor as oneself is not
>one of the Noachide laws.
No, but it *IS* a teaching of Jesus.  And I notice you left Him out of
your list of whom we should obey.  I obey his commandments and teachings
FIRST.  No other teacher comes before him for Gentiles.

>Homosex as a particular aspect of sexual immorality is addressed in
>the writings of Paul, the apostle.
Well again, the words are fairly unclear.  I understand that there was no
concept of 'homosexuality' as we know it in NT Greek.

>Look through the Old Testament and see the sins that deserved the death 
>penalty.  Are any of them not sins in for modern day Christians?
I don't believe so.  But this picking and chosing which parts of Leviticus
to enforce is an interesting game...

>>>Do you believe that beastiality is sinful.
>>Yes.  Copulation between a souled, reasoning person and an unsouled,
>>unreasoning person is most certainly sinful.  It cannot in any way, shape
>>or form be an expression of mutual love and respect.

>A interesting fact to note is that both homosex between men and 
>sex with animals was worthy of death under the law of Moses.  I think
>they are almost always, if not always, listed in the same passages in
>the law.  But as we see in I Corinthians 6 that God forgives those
>who repent of sins that were capitol crimes in the law, through the
>Lord Jesus.  
I believe that we are saved by the Grace of God, and that there is
absolutely nothing I can do to make myself worthy enough to be saved.  I
try to live my life as God commanded, but fall far short of the ideal.  I
do confess my sins to God, and ask for forgiveness and strength to avoid
repeating them.  But only by God's grace can I ever be saved.

 -Steve
--
 The opinions expressed above are those of the author and not SPSS, Inc.
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     adams@spss.com                           Phone: (312) 329-3522
     Steve Adams                              Fax:   (312) 329-3558