HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Barons and their removal
Date: 1 Oct 92 01:45:12 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.sca
Organization: The Rialto

Fiacha cites Irish ri-s (righs?  what is the plural of ri/righ?) as
examples of popularly (by the nobles) chosen analogues of barons, and
suggests that the Norse model may provide other analogues.  He also
makes the good point that we are consulting the major local tenants
(_not_ nobles, in the English case; they are _not_ tenants-in-chief,
who by definition are at least barons; but they are gentle), not the 
peasants.

I'm interested in the example he cites; it's a time and place I don't
know nearly enough about, and would be happy to learn more  (any good
histories?).  It's an interesting historical example, which provides
some period precedent for what is at least in some places our practice,
which is a nice thing to have.  However --

What I was asking was whether the pattern could be called "feudal".
I really doubt that Ireland prior to the Norman Conquest (theirs, not
England's, by Henry II) would be described as "feudal" by any professional
medievalist.  It is a historic example, and as such should be taken seriously,
but it isn't a feudal one, it isn't a very big one (it is constricted to
one small island, and ends for all practical purposes in 1171), and it
certainly isn't central.  By my understanding, the scandinavian pattern was 
far closer to the English than to the Irish, with the exception of Iceland,
which again is peripheral.

So: anyone got a case where "baron" means anything like what it does in
English -- i.e. tenant-in-chief -- under a feudal (based on fealty and
operating with a feudal economy) system, and where selection of barons
involved formal consultation of any kind, binding or otherwise, with
the local tenants of the baron?

Cheers,

-- Angharad/Terry
From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Feet Voting
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1992 12:13:33

     Pedro de Alcazar wrote:

 CL>      Perhaps the situation is different where I am. The household
 CL> arose as a group of Bradley University people, both students and
 CL> staff, became interested in the SCA. Since the local barony, Illiton,
 CL> did not meet near Bradley, though many of its members live near there,
 CL> we thought it better if the people interested in the SCA at Bradley
 CL> could meet together without getting into a turf war with Illiton,
 CL> since most people there are really nice people. So the household was
 CL> formed.

 Ah. In Ansteorra, this would more likely be organized as a Canton of the
 Barony than a household - I know of at least four Baronies (Steppes, Bryn
 Gwlad, Bjornsborg, Stargate) with similar arrangements.

    Tadhg, Obelisk

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Consultants needed
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1992 22:09:14

 C> However, many large areas are still not covered.  Consultants are still
 C> needed for:

Put me down for the following --

 C> Mediaeval
 C>    Heraldry
 C>    Names (by language?)
 C>    Feudalism
 C>    Cultures/Religions

    Tadhg, Obelisk

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: stormcrow@genie.geis.COM
Subject: SCA digests missed
Organization: The Internet
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 00:14:00 GMT

Due to a problem with my Internet access sight, I missed several
issues of the digest format of this newsgroup.  I would appriciate
it if someone could e-mail me instructions on requesting these from
an archive sight or, better yet, send me a copy of the SCA digests
numbered V5#683 & V5#684.  As always, I remain,
 
Your Servent,
 
Scott K. Ellis
 
 --------------------------------------------------------------------
 Scott K. Ellis                     | All opinions here are my own.
 GEnie   : StormCrow                | No one else would want them
 Internet: StormCrow@GEnie.geis.com | anyway.
 --------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ilaine@panix.com (Liz Stokes)
Subject: infant wear (was Re: Historical Survey Question)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1992 21:12:12 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix & Internet, NYC

In article <Mel7M3S00WB4RaD3IQ@andrew.cmu.edu> David Schroeder <ds4p+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:

>So, what does the week-dressed 3-week-old wear to her first event?

	Swaddling bands, what else? It's period, and it's supposed to keep
them quiet :^)
					-Ilaine


-- 
Liz Stokes         | 	Ilaine's E-Z Garb Workshop
Ilaine de Cameron  | 	Before you can spin the wool, you need to comb it.
                   | 	Use the combs with the 5 rows of 6" razor sharp spikes.
ilaine@panix.com   |    Don't drink and comb - trust me on this.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Montgomery J. Moose)
Subject: Rules of War
Organization: National Association for the Disorganized
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 17:46:04 GMT

  Greetings to the Rialto,

  I am looking for a period book that gives the "rules of war" during the 
period when the chivalric ideal was being espoused in Western Europe.  (I have
to write a 20-page paper on a primary source of medieval history...)  My
professor was able to suggest only a book called "the _Tree of Battle_ or some
such..."
  Any help would be, well, very helpful.

		Alan Fairfax Aluricson, Fenris Herald
		Canton of the Riding of Hawkland Moor
		Barony of Northwoods, Midrealm
		atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu		**Magnitudo Vocis**
From: atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Montgomery J. Moose)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Mistakes & Rumors
Date: 5 Oct 92 05:28:11 GMT
Organization: National Association for the Disorganized

Greetings to the Rialto,

	I had a disturbing conversation with Mistress Jaelle of Armida this
evening.  She is working on a three-volume compilation of small ordinaries so
that SCA heralds can check for conflict against these without having to search.
On the net a few weeks ago, it was stated that this work was going to run to
20 volumes, not three.  (This has a lot of significance for heralds who think
they'll have to look through 20 books instead of three to check against
devices.)
	The point is that Jaelle's project is being misrepresented in a forum
where she has no chance to respond.  She says that this is the third time this
has happened to her, and that she is "getting sick of the net."  As SCA members
(in the traditional sense), we have a responsibility to make sure that we are
reporting only the facts as we know them.  As Sir Hilary pointed out in her 
now-infamous letter, misinformation can spread as fast or faster as truth on
the net--a computer makes no distinction.  Because of this, we need to take
extra care to guard against error.
	I would suggest mentioning guidelines for posting )n an FAQ.  These
should be the same as those we use in A&S--namely, that

	1) We should only use what we can document,
	
	2) Name our sources, or

	3) Explain why we aren't doing 1 or 2.

	Unfortunately, I cannot elaborate on this, but I would like to hear
comments from other members of the Rialto.

		Alan Fairfax Aluricson, Fenris Herald
		Canton of the Riding of Hawkland Moor
		Barony of Northwoods, Midrealm
		atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu		**Magnitudo Vocis**
From: SAUNDRSG@qucdn.queensu.ca (Graydon)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: archery officers
Date: 29 Sep 92 14:03:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: mc.9209291014.aa17423
Organization: The Internet

Greetings!

I've got a question for you folks - is there any documentation for
what commanders of archery units were called?

The stuff I've seen has ranks for NCO's (vintenars, commanders of 20)
and refers to overall commanders (who are the expected Counts and Earls
and whatnot) but nothing in the middle.

The reason I ask this is that the Midrealm Earl Marshal recently had
an attack of 'this is too disorganized' and forcibly re-organized the
Midrealm archery structure.  This distresses me not at all - anything
that produces a succinct office requirements, and unambiguous lists of
duties, almost has to be a good thing.

My problem is with 'archery marshal' as a term.  I don't think 'marshal'
ever applied to anything other than men-at-arms type stuff, and the
possibilities for confusion are rife as well.  I don't want people to
start having to ask 'what *kind* of marshal!

So, any _documentable_ suggestions?  Anyone get twitchy around the term
artillerist, which seems to have been the late Hundred Year's War term
from the guy in charge of all the missle troops amound the English?

Graydon
From: Cat.Moran@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Cat Moran)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Pentacles - "technical" question
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1992 17:26:38

EC> I have heard that upward pentacles symbolised the spirit, whereas downward
EC> ones were evil.

EC> Is this distinction :
EC>  - real in christian/jewish/pagan symbolisms ?
EC>  - real IN PERIOD in ... symbolisms ?

I have heard that the downward pentacle is considered a good symbol amongst pagans in the UK.  (I may have read this in one of the Ferrar books?)  It is avoided by most of the US pagans I know, probably because of its (perceived?) 
use by satanic groups.

                    Caitlin, Steppes, Ansteorra


 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Heraldic Advice
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1992 18:55:03

 DS>  Another odd charge appears on a bookplate on a shield held by an
 DS> angel (who is holding the first strange charge on a shield in her
 DS> other hand).  This one may be zodiacal or a styled gibbet or some such.

 DS> It forms one connected figure:  start at the bottom with a chevron and
 DS> a chevron inverted, then attach a backwards number four (4) to the top
 DS> of the chevron, tack an 'x' on the end of the horizontal bar of the (4),
 DS> and appear to have something dripping from the area of the 'x'.
 DS> Any ideas, folks?  

 Sounds like one of the "hausmarken" that Master Eraszimierz Waspanieski did
 an article about in one of the Known World Heraldic Symposium Proceedings.

    Tadhg, Obelisk

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr)
Subject: Thanks to all
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 92 20:49:19 GMT
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta


Milords and ladies, I wish to publicly give thanks for the
kind treatment I was afforded on my visit to Toronto.

Not only were their fighters chivalrous, and their ladies
beautiful, bu all were courteous and friendly.

I will be returning to them as soon as I can, and would commend
their hospitality throughout the knowne worlde.

BTW, Naturally this An Tirian kicked butt;-)
Flamewars!! heh heh heh

Carolus Malvoix
Montengarde An Tir
dep. const.
P.A.(mont)
humourous iconoclast
peacock
.
-- 
Within the span of the last few weeks I have heard elements of
separate threads which, in that they have been conjoined in time,
struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing
gourd. --Unknown net.person
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: moonman@buhub.bradley.edu (Craig Levin)
Subject: Re: Feet Voting
Organization: House of the Moss Rose
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 92 00:36:17 GMT

Greetings to all, and most especially to Lord Tadhg, whom I quote:

>     Pedro de Alcazar wrote:

> CL>      Perhaps the situation is different where I am. The household
> CL> arose as a group of Bradley University people, both students and
> CL> staff, became interested in the SCA. Since the local barony, Illiton,
> CL> did not meet near Bradley, though many of its members live near there,
> CL> we thought it better if the people interested in the SCA at Bradley
> CL> could meet together without getting into a turf war with Illiton,
> CL> since most people there are really nice people. So the household was
> CL> formed.

> Ah. In Ansteorra, this would more likely be organized as a Canton of the
> Barony than a household - I know of at least four Baronies (Steppes, Bryn
> Gwlad, Bjornsborg, Stargate) with similar arrangements.

	The idea was proposed about 2 years ago that we possibly try
for cantonal or college arrangements, but we decided that the
paperwork was a little extreme (seeing as the largest we have ever
been is still less than a dozen) and our homework loads were not going
to get smaller. Also, at the time, we were not sure if the household
would still exist after a year or so-luckily this is not the case.
Also, existing as a household lets us avoid complications with the
university as a "non-approved" organization-this lets us set our own
admission standards, as opposed to the university's policy of free
admission, and keeps us with the excuse of "We're just a bunch of
friends..." On the other hand, we can still provide a united front to
university authorities, if they ever have a problem with the SCA,
which has thankfully never come up, and a stable base for newcomers.

Su Servidor, 

--
Craig\The Moonman\Levin         Pedro de Alcazar
moonman@buhub.bradley.edu 	House of the Moss Rose, Barony of
moonman@camelot.bradley.edu	Illiton, Middle Kingdom
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: trifid@agora.rain.com (Roadster Racewerks)
Subject: Linen and wool
Organization: Open Communications Forum
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 09:12:44 GMT



I hear a lot in the SCA about wool...how thick, how finely spun and cotton
(how rare, how little used) and even silk, yet I hear little about linen. Yet
Ireland and the Low Countries were famous for fine linen, and in fact a lot of
modern cotton products are a careful attempt to reproduce the expensive linen
of period. 

I suspect those whose summers got a bit warm wore linen, with overtunics that
covered less area than winter. Some period linen was very fine weave...and
underwear was sometimes euphamized as "linens"...

Moreach NicMaolain
trifid@agora.rain.com

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Requiring Membership to play
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 19:13:16 GMT

In article <1992Sep29.150656.537@progress.com> schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei) writes:
[On the subjects of membership, requirements, and liability insurance
--whh]

>And, I'm not at all certain that we couldn't get
>a different sort of Liability insurance that covered rostered officers,
>regardless of that persons membership status.  On the other hand, I
>have NOT looked into whether this suspicion is correct, nor whether
>such a change would cost more in premiums than we can afford.

We could almost certainly get such a policy.  Absent hard data, I think
it likely that the cost issue of such a policy is a driving
consideration--especially since it would be explicitly covering folks
who are *not* helping to pay for it.

This is really a flip side of the issue with regard to fighters.  That
we have fighting, and that we give them official status to be allowed
to fight ('Authorization') is probably a major factor in our insurance
rates--for it affects the chances of someone getting hurt and
attempting to sue a site owner, an SCA officer, or the SCA.  It has
been argued that fighters ought to become members--as a requirement
for Authorization to fight--in order that they will help defray to
insurance cost.  (The counter argument being to simply charge for the
cost of their pro rata part of the insurance and cost of
administrative paperwork--a 'user fee' on fighters as it were.)

If one proposes that officers be permitted to hold office and that the
SCA will cover their actions (liability insurance) *without* insisting
that the cost be borne by the officer--then you are implicitly
suggesting that the same argument can be applied to any sub-group
within the SCA--the insurance should cover all who can be defined at
no cost to themselves.

I would prefer to see the *reasons* for requiring membership for
various categories stated a little more clearly--adn (I think) a
little more honestly.  I do not think that the corporation should be
enriched--for I prefer to keep institutions relatively poor
(Governments too....  Governments *especially*...).  If the reason is
for communication between 'levels' of the organization and helping
cover overhead costs is a side-benefit, then let it be stated that
way.  If it is to cover the individual with the SCA's insurance--then
let the corporation remember that individuals should be free to accept
risks themselves.  If it is because the insurance companies
insist--then let *that* be stated.

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Things that make ya go "Hmmmm..."
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 92 15:09:29 GMT
Organization: IBM T. J. Watson Research

Greetings from Arval!

Kwellend-Njal wrote:

> 	Well, considering that, in early tournements, you defeated your
> opponent by beating him senseless, falling down kind of makes sense...

I think this may be an exaggeration.  the goal of the early tournament was
to capture opponents for ransom.  A dead captive was valueless, so it is
reasonable to assume that even in the earliest tournaments, the combattants
took some care to avoid killing their opponents.  It also seems reasonable
to observe that it's a lot easier to bring home a captive who can ride his
own horse than one who is out cold.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: ... "Autocr Dancing from Pictures; Waivers
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 19:09:24 GMT

In article <BvnsvM.EvD@access.digex.com> corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra) writes:
>In article <1apqgmINNrtp@agate.berkeley.edu> cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu () writes:
>>
>>They had -- just -- but we had this feeling that it wasn't appropriate
>>to ask the King and Queen to call the Parks Department and reserve the site,
>>make sure the restrooms had toilet paper [this was before we were big
>>enough to need large unimproved sites necessitating the rental of
>>porta-privies], or stake out the Eric.  
>
>Stake out the Eric? That's a new one on me. Please explain, M'Lady. IMWTK!

Ah...  Now this one I can answer...

This concerns one of the more interesting FAQs that one gets from
newer folks in the Society.

In the very early days (pre-AS IV), it was decided that there was a
need for some sort of marker to show where the edge of the field was.
Several people went to the home of Ellen Cross-Quills and Beverly
Hodghead.  Ellen found some red fabric and a a strip was made of it
about 6 inches wide (about 150 mm, for cousins across various bodies
of water).  Pockets were sewn into it periodically.  Meanwhile, Bev
took some unused coathangers and made little wire stakes to slip
through the pockets and hold the cloth upright, in place, and off the
ground.

This strip of cloth (because of it's color) was nicknamed Eric the
Red.

In time, the Society grew.  The field needed to be bigger and Eric the
Red was no longer long enough to go around.  This time, Ellen came up
with some yellow fabric to make more field-edging.  This second effort
was nicknamed the Yellow Peril.

Yet ore time passed (to about AS V) and the Society had grown more,
and Eric the Red and the Yellow Peril were no longer long enough.  
Some white fabric was made into edging--and nicknamed the White
Russian. 

Along about the time the White Russian was made, referring to the edge
marking of teh field by all these names became cumbersome, and they
became known (collectively) as 'Eric' or 'the Eric'.

Since then many other edge markers have been made and they are
generally known as the eric.  Some folks now refer to the field
enclosed by the eric as the eric.

Contrary to what an amazing number of people think, 'eric' is *not*
period term for either field or edge.  It is purely an SCA
invention--and particularly a Western one.

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
From: thorinn@diku.dk (Lars Henrik Mathiesen)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: name from the netherlands???
Date: 2 Oct 92 11:04:34 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen

mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:
>Greetings from Arval!  Lindorm wrote:

>> "Lundgren" is a blatantly modern definitely out of period common Swedish
>> surname.

>I'm curious: How do you know that it is only a modern surname?  Do you know
>it's origin?

As I heard the story, the Swedish authorities decided, some time ago,
that they did not like the vast numbers of Anderssons, Hansssons, &c.,
so they made up a long list of surnames of the type Lundgren ("grove
branch"), Appelquist (sp?, "apple twig"), &c., and gave them to -son
families who wanted a name ``of their own.'' Exchanges like the
following were claimed to be common, but that may have been a joke,
mostly.

  -- Hello, I'm Peter Lundgren.
  -- Good morning, Mr. Lundgren. May I ask, what was your name before?

The more common of these names may also be from the earlier period
(about 1750-1850, I think) where everybody had to adopt a family name
A lot of people just used the patronymic of whoever happened to be
head of the household, though, which then led to the later episode.

The point is, botanical thingies are not likely to have occured as
surnames before this happened; those that did were often simplex, and
may have stemmed from the habit of ancient noble families of deriving
their family name from their device.

Lars Mathiesen (U of Copenhagen CS Dep) <thorinn@diku.dk> (Humour NOT marked)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca