HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: Question about a charge
Date: 14 Sep 92 19:34:39 GMT
Organization: Department of Industrial Engineering

Thus spake mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman):

>Robert Crawford writes:

>> 	How common is a squirrel as an heraldic charge? In what poses
>> would it be sufficiently different from other charges?

>Fairly rare, but it is found in English armory and, as we have seen, in
>other cultures as well.  I believe it was used in medieval Anglo-French
>armory, mostly for canting; it is certainly an acceptable charge in SCA
>armory.

I'm not an SCAer, myself, but it occurs to me that someone with a name or
nickname involving squirrels might consider using the more subtle pun of
a simple charge ("ordinary") in vair, rather than an actual drawing of a
squirrel.  "Vair" is French for a particular breed of squirrel, and is an
heraldic fur based on the pattern made by squirrel-pelts sewn "tete-beche"
and alternating stomach/back.  This was a favorite cloak lining for lesser
nobles not entitled to wear the royal ermine.

There are a number of vair patterns and derivatives, which someone recently
catalogued in this group.  You might pick something like "Vert a chevron
vairy" as a very low-key pun on the squirrel thing.

[Ob. trivia:  the "glass slipper" in the folktale "Cinderella" is the result
 of a mistranslation from French to English, in which the word "vair" was
 improperly confused with "verre" (glass).  In the original, it was a fur
 slipper, which makes a whole lot more sense for dancing, when you think
 about it...]


-- 
      David M. Tate      | From my dugout sleep I fell into the Game
 dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu | And I crouched in the circle while my insides froze
 Randall 'Chico' Jarrell | One out from death, one hit from dreamt-of glory
"Death of a Pinch Hitter"| I woke to 'Strike One!' and the nightmare sliders...
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Savoy and similar (was Re: Concepts of family and state heraldry)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 17:15:28 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Lars Henrik Mathiesen writes:

> As I understand it, a plain "cross" on a flag is symmetrical, like the
> Cross of St. George in the UK flag. The cross in the Danish flag is
> not symmetrical --- the part of the upright above the joint should
> have the same length as the side arms (on the normal rectangular flag
> shape, which is about 20% higher (longer) than it is wide). I believe
> this is called a Roman cross. The other Nordic countries use the same
> shape of cross and flag, but with other tinctures.

In English blazonry, a cross with a long lower leg is called "a Latin
cross" or "a long cross".  (On a flag, the "base" correponds to the "fly",
the part furthest from the flagstaff.)  This is a good point: I don't know
if the Danish cross is intended to be a long cross or a simple cross.  On a
shield, the lower leg of a cross is normally slightly longer than the
others, because the shield itself is assymetrical.

===========================================================================
Josh Mittleman (mittle@watson.ibm.com)
J2-C28 T.J. Watson Research Center, PO Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: drickel@bounce.mentorg.com (Dave Rickel)
Subject: Translate (was Re: M[a]cDonald)
Originator: drickel@bounce
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 01:11:30 GMT
Organization: Mentor Graphics 
Keywords: 
Followup-To: 


In article <x95y7#c@rpi.edu>, habura@vccnw05.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura) writes:
|> The arms (not the crest) of MacDonald of the Isles are "Or, a lymphad sable,
|> pennoned gules".

Hmm.  Anybody considered writing a "heraldry to english" translation program--
something that would take the preceding and produce "a black boat with red
sails on a yellow background) (or whatever).  The next stage would be GIF
output.

Looks pretty messy.


david rickel
drickel@sjc.mentorg.com
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: hamm@weejordy.physics.mun.ca (Craig Hamm)
Subject: Re: M(a)cDonald family crest
Organization: Ocean Sciences Centre
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 18:48:19 GMT

	Try getting a hold of somebody in Nova Scotia Canada, zillions
	of MacDonalds there!

-- 
  
    Craig Hamm, Memorial University,   | I don't think the letters which appear
    Newfoundland (displaced N.Scotian) | on your letters page are genuine. I 
    DoD #1500,                         | think you just make them all up.  In
    81 Maxim 650                       | fact you probably made this one up
    ------------                       | too.  -J. Clark, Rotherham (Viz comics)

Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: danderso@nmsu.edu (David Anderson)
Subject: The right to bear arms...
Organization: NMSU Computer Science
Distribution: rec.heraldry
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 22:20:54 GMT

It is my opinion that the Constitution does not prohibit the use of
coats of arms being used in the United States and only prohibits the
use of titles of nobility.  It would seem to me that if I wished to
represent myself with a coat of arms then that option would be open to
me.  I am not exactly sure about how those arms would be registered so
that my next door neighbour does not decide to represent himself with
those same armorial bearings.  I am also interested in more discussion
of the Constitutional implications of heraldry in the United States.
One reason why I think it is not unconstitutional is that different
departments of the government identify themselves with some sort of
symbol and use seals on official documents.

Regards,
David Anderson
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: shralp@camelot.bradley.edu (Jamie McDonald)
Subject: Re: M(a)cDonald family crest
Organization: Bradley University
Date:  9 Sep 92 20:27:51 GMT

In <1992Sep9.171216.6879@westford.ccur.com> frank@westford.ccur.com (Frank Tredeau) writes:

>>Anyone know of the true MacDonald crest?
>How about two golden arches on a rectangular red field?

Yes, yes.  You're all very clever.

Now as soon as someone suggests a quartered shield depicting farm
animals and their associated sounds repeated twice here and there
perhaps we can move on.


--
shralp@camelot.bradley.edu                      Jamie McDonald  <><

Why are all the cool products on TV interrupted by that darn rabbit?
From: gadosy1@vax2.concordia.ca (ME, WHO ELSE?)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: Grants of Arms from the British College of Arms
Date: 15 Sep 92 13:58:00 GMT
Organization: Concordia University
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <QUASAR.92Sep11123247@samurai-cat.ctt.bellcore.com>, quasar@ctt.bellcore.com (Laurence R. Brothers) writes...
>As I am a US citizen born in England, I believe it's possible I can
>make some vague claim to dual citizenship, depending on current UK law
>and/or the UK law on the subject at the time of my birth, which might
>be enough to convince whichever herald has the responsibility to
>review an application.

	You can apply to the College.  I know because I sent a letter to 
Her Royal Majesty asking about this and a few other things.  One of her ladies 
in waiting replied that only people born and/or living in England could apply
to the College, whereas I had to apply to the cheif Herald of Canada.

	Hope that helps.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|\/\/\/|
|      |  "I want to centrifuge a kitten!!" - Gadosy1@Vax2.Concordia.CA
|      |
| (o)(o)  "Kittens grow up to be fuzzy Satanic fur balls" - A Very Smart Person
C      _)
| '____|
|   /     "No bar too far, no beer too dear" - Timothy A. Gadosy, Esq.
|  |
|  |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: llf@alice.att.com (alice!llf)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: Computerized Family Crests
Date: 11 Sep 92 13:59:59 GMT
Reply-To: llf@alice.UUCP (alice!llf)
Organization: New Jersey State Home for Bewildered Kittens

Given that mail order equivalent outfits like this are offering crests
and arms (a generally European tradition) to folks whose ancestry
originated exclusively from China, I'd be careful.

Lynda
-- 
					Member HASA, Atheist-Scum Division
"The One Horseman and Three Pedestrians of the Apocalypse" - Terry Pratchet
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: marshalling (was Re: partitioned achievements)
Date: 15 Sep 92 15:03:40 GMT
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM

Somehow or other, I wrote:

> Before the Hundred Years War, the French kings usually
>used three fleurs, but sometimes used more.  When the English kings
>started quartering that device, the French changed their arms to a semy in
>order to reduce the propaganda value of the English usage.

Antti corrected me: 

> Hey, isn't it the other way 'round? As I recall, 'Azure, semy-de-lis Or'
> is France ancient, and 'Azure, three fleurs-de-lis Or' France modern. 

Yes, of course.  Thanks for the correction.

===========================================================================
Josh Mittleman (mittle@watson.ibm.com)
J2-C28 T.J. Watson Research Center, PO Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: cm9@prism.gatech.EDU (MCKEITHAN,CLIFFORD M.)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: Last Names and Heraldry (was Re: Computerized Family Crests)
Date: 14 Sep 92 23:00:35 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology

Klaus writes:
>(the Scotch system is even worse, BTW).
>

Wrong!  The Scotch system is excellent - Open one bottle
of Scotch and ingest same.

Perhaps the Scottish system is worse.


-- 
MCKEITHAN,CLIFFORD M.
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp:     ...!{allegra,amd,hplabs,ut-ngp}!gatech!prism!cm9
Internet: cm9@prism.gatech.edu
From: jmcd@cea.berkeley.edu (John McDonald)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: M[a]cDonald
Date: 10 Sep 92 01:37:46 GMT
Organization: Space Science Labs

I, too, am wondering about the McDonald clan
heraldry...

I visited Scotland in 1990, and a very beautiful
country it is, and found that there were no fewer
than FOUR distinct MacDonald clans and that it was
hard to find anyone who did not have some McDonald
in them somewhere.  I did see the crests of all four
clans as depicted in a book in Edinburgh, but do not
recall the details.  The one described by Jamie McDonald
doesn't sound right, though.  I don't think ships figure
in anywhere.

Any info would be appreciated.  Until then, i will stick
with the connected inverse U's in a gold on scarlet field...

John McDonald

begin 664 signature.uu
M:F]H;E\M7U\M7U\M7U\M7U\M7U\M7U\M7U\M7U\M7U\M7VUC9&]N86QD"@E!
M<G1I<W1S(%!R;W9O:V4@06QI96YS"E]?+5]?+5]?+5]?+5]?+5]?+5]?+5]?
M+5]?+5]?+5]?+5]?+5]?+5]?+0IC96YT97(@(" @("!F;W(@(" @("!E=78@
2(" @("!A<W1R;W!H>7-I8W,*
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen)
Subject: Re: Question about a charge
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 20:55:46 GMT

In article <1992Sep13.061939.6517@nntp.hut.fi> c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen) writes:
>In article <betel.716261378@camelot> betel@camelot.bradley.edu (Robert Crawford) writes:
>>
>>	How common is a squirrel as an heraldic charge? 

The arms of the town of Kauniainen:
>Azure, a squirrel couchant Or, armed and langued Gules, holding a fir cone Or,
>en chief three roses in fess Or

Ooooopss ! I made a mistake. The squirrel is _sejant_ (sitting on his hind
legs), not couchant , which means he would have been lying with his head
raised. I would suppose sejant is the normal position in which a squirrel would
appear in arms (squirrel rampant would be something really weird).

As a beast is eating something in the arms, he is sayed to be preying upon the
object. But is squirrel a beast, and would he be preying on a fir cone, as he
holds it next to his mouth in the arms of Kauniainen ?

Another is the arms of the town Laihia: Vert, a squirrel sejant Argent 
on a ragged staff Or, holding (/preying upon) a fir cone of the same.

Third example is the municipal community of Noormarkku: Or, a squirrel
stantant Gules on an anvil Sable.


  ++ Tuomas Viljanen                     ++ For a battle like Crecy, you do  ++
  ++ Lahderanta 20 A 19                  ++ not need a military genius like  ++
  ++ SF-02720 Espoo 72 FINLAND           ++ Edward III. All you need is an   ++
  ++ 358-0-592175 or c34657b@saha.hut.fi ++ idiot like the Duke of Alencon.  ++
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: eebonar@sn01.sncc.lsu.edu (Dave Bonar)
Subject: Tartans and Scottish Geneology (Was: Re: Need help with family crest)
Nntp-Posting-Host-[nntpd-28383]: sn01.sncc.lsu.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4   
Reply-To: eebonar@sn01.sncc.lsu.edu
Organization: News and Views from LSU
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 02:01:18 GMT

In article <5652@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP>, genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave) writes...
>Several people have already commented on the misconceptions involved in
>talking about the "emblem of the 'craig' name", but you might also be
>interested to know that the alleged association between particular tartans
>and particular families is much more tenuous, and much later historically,
>than is usually supposed.

	Do you know of any good books, other then the Dictionary already
mentioned, on Scottish geneology, tartans, arms and surnames?

Dave
__________
Dave Bonar
eebonar@lsuvax.sncc.lsu.edu
__________

Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: elk@cblpo.att.com (elk)
Subject: Re: Computerized Family Crests
Organization: AT&T Bell Labs
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 13:20:59 GMT


In article <1992Sep9.194633.16617@ultra.com> jerbil@ultra.com (Joseph Beckenbach {Adapter Software Release Engr}) writes:
   
   [stuff deleted]

   On this relatively
   flat surface, paint can be applied to produce designs.  Designs which follow
   certain sets of rules, which grew out of the need to identify people in battle
   and (in peace-time) amongst an illiterate society, came to be used as "arms".
   I can detail the basic rules later, if you wish.


Please do.

I'm new to both the newsgroup and the topic and would like any
information you'd have the chance to provide.

Thanks!

--
+------------------------+  
|Ed King                 |  Evolution hasn't had enough time to 
|elk@cblpo.cb.att.com    |  determine if having too many neurons is 
|                        |  a survival trait.
+------------------------+
From: perkins@MSUPA.PA.MSU.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: Misc.
Date: 10 Sep 92 16:00:52 GMT
Reply-To: perkins@MSUPA.PA.MSU.EDU
Organization: MSU Dept. of Physics & Astronomy

>Then I found this VERY nice book in the U of I library, which 
>I forget the name of, but it's all in French. It's like General 
>Heraldry or something like that. I found it a few years ago and
> [...]  The books are light
>blue and there are two sets. The taller ones are nothing but pages on
>pages of little pictures of the shields. The smaller, fatter ones 
>which describe the shield in the proper terms with some history 
>of the family...of course, all in French. I can go find out what
>the title of the book is, if anyone wants to know, and if no one
>else can come up with it.

This sounds like Jean-Baptiste Rietstap's _Armorial_General_ (the ones in
the MSU Library are bound in grey rather than light blue, but there have
been a few re-printings of it since it first came out in the 1880s).
It was an attempt to provide a combined European armorial (virtually all
others restricted themselves to a single country plus at most a small
sample of neighboring countries' most prominent arms).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
George J Perkins     perkins@msupa.pa.msu.edu     gjperkins@fnal.fnal.gov
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: betsyp@apollo.hp.com (Betsy Perry)
Subject: Last Names and Heraldry (was Re: Computerized Family Crests)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 13:42:42 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA

In article <1992Sep9.121729.13074@relay.nswc.navy.mil> rweisbe@starfleet.nswc.navy.mil (Bob Weisbeck) writes:
[story of three alternate "official" family crests deleted]
>   I'm wondering if other areas around the country have these computerized 
>family
>crest businesses and where they get their information from.  And how can 
>someone be certain that their family crest is authentic? 
                                                           
The simple answer is that family crests (coats of arms, properly; the
crest is the little helmet + ornaments that goes *above* the coat of
arms) aren't tied to surnames: they are tied to lines of descent.   So
having Perry for a surname doesn't entitle you to display "the Perry
family coat of arms", any more than having the Kennedy surname means
that you're related to the ruling family of Massachusetts.   You need
to prove that you're descended in the male line* from the particular
Perry who was awarded that particular coat of arms.  For common names
like Perry, there may in fact be several different coats associated
with different branches of the family.  

*male line:  Okay, there are odd exceptions: a woman can be what is
known as "the heraldic heiress" in cases where the senior male has
only daughters.
  
So people who send "Histories of the Perry Crest" through the mail
don't know what they're talking about; they're in it to make money.
If you *really* want to find out if your family is armigerous*, go
talk to Great-Aunt Gertrude who is in the D.A.R. and does genealogy;
if you don't have GaG, you'll have to do the research yourself.
                                                              
*armigerous: having the right to bear an achievement of arms

Betsy (not armigerous as far as she knows) Perry

P.S.  The historical solution for rich Americans who wanted to be
armigerous was to find a British ancestor, then to arrange for
that ancestor *and all his descendants* to be granted a coat of
arms.  The British College of Arms finally banned this practice, 
saying roughly "If the American government wants its nationals
to bear heraldic achievements, it can set up its own College
to oversee them."  So far, Congress hasn't obliged.

P.P.S.  Technically, only the eldest surviving son of the  first son
of the first son... has the right to bear the family coat of arms as
is;  everybody else adds little dingies called "marks of cadence" to
demonstrate that they're not the head of the family.
-- 
Betsy Hanes Perry   (note P in userid)     betsyp@apollo.hp.com
Hewlett-Packard Company
"It seems to us that the readers who want fiction to be like life are
considerably outnumbered by those who would like life to be like fiction."
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Question about a charge
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 17:10:53 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Robert Crawford writes:

> 	How common is a squirrel as an heraldic charge? In what poses
> would it be sufficiently different from other charges?

Fairly rare, but it is found in English armory and, as we have seen, in
other cultures as well.  I believe it was used in medieval Anglo-French
armory, mostly for canting; it is certainly an acceptable charge in SCA
armory.

The standard posture for a squirrel is "sejant erect": sitting on its
haunches with the body vertical and the tail curled up behind.  It is
usually shown grasping an acorn; the acorn is sometimes blazoned, but not
always.  Squirrels are occasionally "courant", or running, with the legs
outstreached and the tail curled over the back.  In the first posture, the
squirrel should counted different from any other beast; in the second, it
might not be counted different from other weasel-shaped beasts.

> 	I'm asking this from the point of view of an SCA member
> interested in registering a device...

Specific questions about SCA heraldry might be better directed to the
SCA-heraldic mailing list (scahrlds@pucc.princeton.edu).  This would
probably get you faster and more detailed responses.

===========================================================================
Josh Mittleman (mittle@watson.ibm.com)
J2-C28 T.J. Watson Research Center, PO Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr)
Subject: Re: Coffey cups (one more try)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 92 17:35:56 GMT
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta

In article <1992Sep14.083229.12215@klaava.Helsinki.FI> leino@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Antti Leino) writes:

>Quite possibly; for some reason, a lot of people who are interested in
>heraldry also appreciate puns.  In heraldry, this kind of arms are
>called canting. 

Please! Heralds are absolutely incapable of punning. They simply
can't.

Regards, Carolus/Charles
-- 
Within the span of the last few weeks I have heard elements of
separate threads which, in that they have been conjoined in time,
struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing
gourd. --Unknown net.person
From: klaus@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: Savoy and similar (was Re: Concepts of family and state heraldry)
Keywords: White Cross International
Date: 15 Sep 92 13:24:58 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen

tsahib@vipunen.hut.fi (Tero Juhani Heikkinen) writes:

>In article <1992Sep11.193025.22699@progress.com> schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei) writes:

>The Counts of Savoy bore Gules a cross argent. (A white cross on a red field)
>The House of Savoy later became Kings of Italy, with these same arms.

>Incidentally, these same arms are borne by the City of Wien(Vienna), Austria,
>and the City of Tallinn, Estonia. This is also the flag of Denmark. The Knights
>of Malta have also used this as a flag. Of these, at least the Danish flag has
>nothing whatsoever to do with Savoy, as it was given directly from Heaven to
>King Valdemar when he was on a crusade against the Estonians. At least,
>according to the press release.

In 1219. The "Maltese" one is older.

>Btw, isn't Switzerland Gules a cross couped argent? (with short limbs)

I do not know enough of English heraldic terminology, but in Danish
terminology, Dannebrog is "a white (or silver) cross in red", the Swiss
flag is "a white hoovering Greek cross in red". It is hoovering because
the arms do not reach the sides of the field, it is Greek because the
vertical and horisontical bars are of equal length, and cross in the
middle. The English flag is "a red Greek cross in white". Since the
cross does reach to the edges, and the flag is not square, the bars
are not of equal length, but they cross in the middle, so the cross is
Greek.

I think that the English would simply call the cross in their flag a
cross. I have seen English texts calling the cross of Dannebrog a
Scandinavian cross, but I don't know if that is official.

Klaus O K
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry