HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: schan@birch.srg.af.mil (Stephen Chan x4485)
Subject: Re: Finishing techniques
Organization: SRG, Arinc Research Corp., Annapolis, MD
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 92 14:25:01 GMT

In article <1992Dec30.101825.1589@crash> jfrost@crash.cts.com (Julian Frost) writes:
>Arrgggh!!!  What a load of bunk!!  Think back to first principles of
>Aikido, Guys!!  Number 1, get off the line of attack, Number 2, Break
>Uke's BALANCE (by extending his motion), Number 3,....

	There are other ways of breaking uke's balance - uke's motion is strong
during particular interval of time. If you can time the powerful phase of your
motion before OR after this interval, you can snag control of their center. So,
not only can you extend their motion, you can also jam it if you move early
enough.
	Cranking the arm to change their posture seems like a legitimate method
of controlling uke's center. I was not aware that Ueshiba condemned it.

>whatever! If you can't do this, that's fine, you (like me) need more
>training, but don't say that what is being taught is a corruption!  It
>isn't!

	Whether something is corrupt or not is a question of what context
you're coming from.

>See above!  If you're using the wrist correctly, his center WILL be
>affected in the way you describe.  Practise, practise, practise!!

	Conceivably, you could capture someone's center by twisting their
pinky - it takes a lot of finesse (and a real chump for an uke), but the wrist
would give you a better chance of success. One might expect that control of
the elbow/forearm would give an even better chance of success.

>My aikido is not perfect, never said (or thought) it was.

	Mine is horrible - especially since I haven't practiced it in a while.

>  But let's
>try to be true to the real thing!

	If I remember correctly, the consensus seems to be that Ueshiba's
Aikido changed throughout his life, and that uchi-deshi from different phases
of Ueshiba's development have different styles of Aikido. Ueshiba himself told
his students not to rigidly imitate him - they should discover their own
Aikido.
	So...how do you determine the real thing?  By adherence to principles?
No one has mentioned anything which violate aikido principles.
	If you don't want to call Andy's technique a kote-gaeshi, we can
follow the time honored tradition of calling it a kokyu-nage!

	According to Mochizuki sensei, nobody out here today practices Aikido
the way that Ueshiba practiced it. His opinion was that Ueshiba's Aikido was
optimized for Ueshiba's personality and physical structure. (I wonder what he
thinks about Saito Sensei's Aikido?)
	So long as you stick to the principles, philosophy, and it *works*,
then its probably real enough, don't you think?


--
	Stephen Chan
	uunet!srg!schan or uunet!srg!schan@uunet.uu.net
From: tk@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Tommy Kelly)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Karate-do Kyohan
Date: 30 Dec 92 14:24:17 GMT
Reply-To: tk@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Tommy Kelly)
Organization: Laboratory for the Foundations of Computer Science, Edinburgh U

Anoyne care to comment on this book.  I've seen Nyumon, and I also
have "The Heart of Karate-Do" by Egami.

I know this is supposed to be *the* master text, but other books
describe themselves as similarly definitive.

Thoughts?

thanks,
tommy
From: jchristian@desire.wright.edu
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: dangers in falling
Date: 22 Dec 92 06:08:31 GMT
Distribution: rec
Organization: Wright State University

In article <1992Dec21.4926.13219@dosgate>, "elliott chapin" <elliott.chapin@canrem.com> writes:
> I'd be interested in hearing what people have to say about falling on
> hard surfaces; some ways that are fine on mats won't work away from
> mats.
> 
> Elliott Chapin

I highly recommend rolling regularly on bare concrete.  Practice on mats some,
but also practice on the real thing.  Concrete will teach you what's hitting
where and how hard, a lesson that is harder to learn from mats.  Same applies
for falls.  Amazing how many corners your body has that the mat can hide.

Jeff
From: wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: more on car jacking
Date: 21 Dec 92 15:57:18 GMT
Organization: UniSQL, Inc., Austin, Texas, USA

In article <724876413.AA06207@urchin.fidonet.org> Stovall@f88.n106.z1.fidonet.org (Stovall) writes:
>(Deleted discussion about whether to stay or exit auto when confronted
>with hammer wielding assailant on passenger side.)
>WH>If someone tries to get in the driver's door all you have to do is
>WH>open the door and hit him with it...
>Bad idea. Just floor the gas pedal...the longer the attacker

	(I've actually had to deal with this kind of situation a few times.
I spent 5 years as a cab driver in a small East Coast city.)

	Typically, you'll be parked and only able to move the car a few
feet in any one direction, so you need to be careful about where you try to 
drive it.  That being said, it's very difficult to enter a locked car 
that's moving back and forth even a few feet, and impossible if the you've
got enough room to actually drive away.

	One time I was making a pickup at some sleazy bar.  I was pulled head
on into the bar's lot, so that there were cars on either side and a wall in
front.  Occasional traffic behind me.

	While I'm waiting for my fare this drunk comes up and starts to get
in.  Naturally, when I tell him he can't he gets all loud and nasty and
tries to reach in my window to unlock the back door.  So I backed up.  When
he caught up to me I went forwards again.

	This was a fun game until my fare came out and I had to stop 
to let her in the car.  Now the drunk finds my window again and decides
he's going to punch my head through the opening.  So I open my door and 
knock his shins.  By this time the lady's in the cab.  Mr. Drunk tries to tag
me as I go by but just hits my old green Checker.  

	It would have been easy to pin him against the wall or one of the
parked cars if I'd had to, or wait for a break in the traffic behind me
and just leave.
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: bobsarv@microsoft.com (Bob Sarver)
Subject: Re: Thai kickboxing
Date: 03 Jan 93 02:39:55 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corp.
Distribution: usa


/(me)
/   Much of what I found out about taekwondo was that it was impractical in
/   street defense, because so much of it depended on flamboyant kicking.  
/   Imagine doing that on a gravel surface with three beers under your belt
                                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
/   (the most common situation where you might have to defend yourself to
/   begin with).


/(mary)
/Not for some of us.  

/Please, if you're going to get inebriated and belligerent, don't blame 
/a martial art because it doesn't bail you out.  



"If I'm going to get inebriated and belligerent"?

Did it ever occur to you, Oh Giver of Knowledge, that my comment was
coming from the defensive aspect of MA, and not from the offense
side (I did say "impractical in street DEFENSE").

Just because someone starts a fight with me after I have had three beers
doesn't mean that I started the fight.  

And just because someone tries to mug me or roll me in an alley on my way 
back from a bar doesn't mean that I was the one who got "belligerent".

Next time you're going to dish out sarcastic advice, make sure you
know what you're talking about first.  Keeps the egg off your face.



Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: popovich@cs.columbia.edu (Steve Popovich)
Subject: Re: poor technique
Organization: Columbia University
	<JON.92Dec29120826@zeus.med.utah.edu> <4451@unisql.UUCP>
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 02:59:17 GMT

In article <4451@unisql.UUCP>, wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie) writes:

> Where I'm confused about karate tournaments is that since there _is_ no
> safe subset of techniques - what's a painless way to strike someone? - how
> can you use karate techniques in this situation without "watering them down",
> that is, NOT executing them at full power and speed?  

Maybe I missed it when somebody posted the standard karate response,
but just in case it hasn't been said yet, here's my understanding.

There seem to be two main solutions to this problem.  At least in the
tournaments that I've been to, they've both been in effect, with one
backing up the other.

(1) All attacks are focused short of where they would be focused in an
actual fight.  That is, the attack goes to full extension, but that
point at which the attack finishes is within an inch OUTSIDE the
opponent's body, rather than an inch or more INSIDE, as they would be
in an actual fight.  Of course, nobody's control is perfect, and the
opponent may move in unexpectedly as the blow is struck, so:

(2) Legal techniques and targets ARE restricted to a subset less
likely to result in serious injury in the event that an excessive blow
is struck.  I don't believe that this is formally a rule in our
tournaments, but rather a judging policy in which certain attacks to
certain targets are MUCH more readily scored than other attacks to the
same targets and attacks to other targets outside the "legal" subset.
Reverse punches and front kicks to the solar plexus probably account
for 95% or so of scoring techniques in the tournaments I've seen.  A
punch to the chin might also score, particularly if the judges thought
that a competitor was trying to take advantage of the tournament
judging by defending only their solar plexus and leaving their head
open.  But something like a roundhouse kick to the temple or a "sword
hand" (a.k.a. "karate chop") strike to the neck, or any such
"dangerous" technique would probably not score unless it was
absolutely perfect and completely undefended against.  And then I've
got a sneaking suspicion that the judges would award a half point
instead of the full point that such a "perfect" attack should be
worth.  Also if any substantial contact was made with such an attack,
both competitors would most likely be out of the tournament -- one at
least knocked out and perhaps seriously injured, and the other
disqualified.  The result is a de facto restriction on the set of
legal techniques and targets in tournaments.
	-Steve
From: wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: nelsons
Date: 29 Dec 92 22:09:58 GMT
Organization: UniSQL, Inc., Austin, Texas, USA

In article <1992Dec29.133031@ee.egr.duke.edu> wrankin@ee.egr.duke.edu (William T. Rankin) writes:
>> 	I've had success escaping from a nelson by putting my palms on my 
>"who put it on you and did s/he know what they were doing..."

	I didn't think to ask.  He certainly wasn't very good, though. 
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: hahn@plugh.network.com (Peter Hahn)
Subject: Re: Just Curious...
Organization: Network Systems Corporation
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 19:27:35 GMT

In article <1h5khtINNdra@pith.uoregon.edu> toman@bovine.uoregon.edu (J. Toman) writes:
>In article <1992Dec21.194505.12371@ns.network.com> hahn@plugh.network.com (Peter Hahn) writes:
>>
>>Nor are they the only ones.  I've seen all sorts of sources trying to
>>draw a link between modern day Western boxing and the sort that was
>>practiced in the ancient Greek Olympics.  Nope.  Present day boxing
>>dates back to the end of the 1700's, no more.
>
>So say two Gallic types wanted to brain one another but there weren't
>any tools handy ; what did they do ?

Gentlemen, sir, did not fight in the mud like peasants, but rather, on
the field of honor, with proper weapons as per the Code Duello.  As for
the peasants, well, who cared?  Certainly no one who bothered to write
it down.

I'm being facetious, of course, but not by very much.

>                                     I find it difficult to believe
>that with all that fighting that happened on the European continent,
>someone somewhere didn't develop a stylised method of unarmed fighting
>before the late 1700's.

Certainly there were wrestling styles, some of which, like Cornish
wrestling, still exist today, and many others, which no longer exist,
having been subsumed into international styles like free-style wrestling
or Sambo.  I'd imagine that's what peasants resorted
to, when push came to shove.

Or they stood toe to toe, taking big swings and throwing over-hand
hammers, like in a John Wayne movie, till someone went down.

>                        It might not have been 'boxing' , but there
>were moves in there that turned in to 'boxing' .

Why do you think that there had to be some sort of boxing style at
all?  Though people like us usually don't think about it very much,
punching someone with a closed fist is *not* a natural thing to do,
and throwing a straight punch -- like in boxing, karate, or whatever
have you, most certainly isn't.  And boxing isn't terribly useful for 
real martial (i.e., war) purposes when everyone's wearing armor.

Watch little kids fight sometime -- they'll wrestle, pinch, grab,
push, bite -- but if they punch, you can take it to the bank they
learned it from someone older.

>                                                 I guess your last
>statement is just a bit discontinuous for me, and I'd need to hear
>your history of boxing to believe it.

Most every account I've seen agrees that modern day boxing was developed
by English fencing masters around the end of the eighteenth century, and
was, initially, sort of an empty-hand version of their sword-and-buckler
style.

-- 
Peter Hahn           |hahn@network.com|"...Ch'en worked in a drugstore on the
7600 Boone Ave. N    |+1 612 424-4888 |second story...and at noon each day he
Brooklyn Park, MN USA|                |would leave for lunch in an eccentric
55428                |                |way: he would stroll out the window..."
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr)
Subject: Searching for sword bits for WW2 Katana
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 14:40:58 GMT
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta

Posted on behalf of Steve Hick


------ Forwarded Message

A friend just recently purchased a shin-shinto sword in Japanese WWII
naval officer's mounting.  The saya is probably not original, it is so
tight that it is marring the blade.  Does anyone know either wherer to
purchase shira-saya, or someone who makes saya?

ST


------ End of Forwarded Message

-- 
Within the span of the last few weeks I have heard elements of
separate threads which, in that they have been conjoined in time,
struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing
gourd. --Unknown net.person
From: wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: bear hug variation
Date: 23 Dec 92 17:22:10 GMT
Organization: UniSQL, Inc., Austin, Texas, USA

In article <1992Dec23.134940.3916@aber.ac.uk> azw@aber.ac.uk (Andrew Michael Woodward) writes:
>A bearhug is a poor attack, cos the attacker has taken out all his weapons
>except his teeth, while keeping all the attackee's in play.

	Holy deja vu, Batman!!  (Or would that be "deja bu" ? :-)
This is _just_ _like_ the Stupid Choke discussion, except...

	In this case I'm on the other side.  

	A **REAR** bear hug attack can be devastating if the attacker
can lift your weight off the ground or if he can force you to hold up
his entire weight in such a way that you lack the leverage/balance to
throw him.  In the first place a skilled or very strong opponent can
easily throw you hard onto your back or head, and in the second a
skilled or very large opponent will force you to the ground where his
advantages (may) multiply.

	I usually see this attack practiced from a static postion, i.e.,
uke comes up and grabs, then stands there while tori counters.  In my 
opinion once someone of sufficient skill or strength to be a threat 
actually gets this hold your only hope is to transition to groundwork
immediately and hope to escape or defeat him there.  This hold must be
countered *before* it's set.

	A bear hug from the front is an easier hold to escape from
then a bear hug from the rear.  It takes a very strong or very skilled
person to make this attack work from the front.  Things to watch out for:

	He will bring his locked hands up and back against your spine
rather than just squeezing with his hands.  He may lift you and then
jam his chin into your chest for leverage (yes, this really works!).
If you create some room he may allow your head to bend forward and
quickly transition into a reverse full nelson - bring his arms up
under your elbows and lock his hands behind your shoulders.  If your
neck is bent and your head against his chest he can kill you easily.
If you get too much space for this he will switch the grip to your
neck - imagine a bad naked choke - and bringing your head into his
shoulder put pressure against the back of your neck with his locked
hands.  Or he can just slither around for a chicken wing.  A bar
fighter will headbutt, and a judoka will try for sukui-nage or some
variation.
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: radner@cray.com (Lauren Radner)
Subject: Re: Re: where to buy a CLUB for my car
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 21 Dec 92 17:41:04 CST

In article <14148@pogo.wv.tek.com> roberts@pogo.wv.tek.com (Robert Stroud) writes:
>   I just went thru an utterly crazy commute home last
>   week during our first big snow.  I have never seen the
>   numbers of clueless winter drivers we now seem to have
>   in Oregon.  
>
>   BTW This has little or no MA content. In fact what I
>   really want to know is could Hal Roach drive in snow.
>

That's not important. Please don't waste the time of this newsgroup with
irrelevencies like this. The *important* question is, could Hal Roach drive 
in the snow *better than Bruce Lee*.


-Lauren


Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: ckuan@fraser.sfu.ca (Chiow Min Kuan)
Subject: Kicking someone's xxx.
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 08:24:35 GMT



Hi netters, I am working for a restaurant in downtown Vancouver, Canada.

I have a question that you might be able to help me. My question is:
	
	"Will I be accused of assault for beating the shit out of a
	 customer, if he really, really verbally insulted me?"

Thanks for the reply, and have a HAPPY NEW YEAR!!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
		Chiow Min Kuan,
		e-mail: ckuan@sfu.ca
		Simon Fraser University,
		Burnaby, Canada.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^	
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: burdickd@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Dakin Burdick)
Subject: Re: dangers in falling
Organization: Indiana University
Distribution: rec
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 00:24:49 GMT

What appropriate timing for this subject!  Yesterday I tried doing
a dive roll on the nicest gymnastic floor you've ever seen (there's
no way to get injured on this one, I thought).  The only problem
was that I didn't roll.  By the time I started, I was too close to 
the mat (showing off!), and I landed smack on my shoulder (all 220
pounds of me).  My shoulder joint promptly separated from my clavicle
(I go into surgery next Teusday; $5000 and 6 months rehab; sigh),
which puts the kibosh on my 3rd dan test for a while.  Very little
pain on this one, and I could use my arm fairly well for about five
minutes, then it started tightening up.  Actually, the doc says I
could
leave it the way it is; it would just mean my shoulder would droop
about a couple of inches lower than where it should be.  But I'm
vain and want my broad shoulders back (one of my better features),
so under the knife I go.  On the other hand, I've decided I'm now
officially an old man and will switch to Yoga and Tai Chi.

Dakin
burdickd@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
From: wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: stranglehold
Date: 22 Dec 92 17:03:22 GMT
Organization: UniSQL, Inc., Austin, Texas, USA

In article <1992Dec22.010116.6325@desire.wright.edu> jchristian@desire.wright.edu writes:
>"I only use my martial art for self defense."  But are there times when
>you would use it to attack somebody?  

	No.  Although I've sometimes been sorely tempted...  A person
should not act to bring about disharmony and besides, attacking people
is dangerous.  You never know when the guy might be lots better than you...
From: stacylee@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Stacy)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Gung Fu
Date: 31 Dec 1992 08:32:59 GMT
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.4
Originator: stacylee@csd4.csd.uwm.edu


Well using deductive reasoning (and alot of assuming), if they're using
the Cantonese spelling 'Gung Fu', it's most likely a Southern art.
And if this is so, and they claim to be a 'Five Animals system', I would
guess they would most likely be Hung Gar.
From: mikel@Apple.COM (Mikel Evins)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Electronic Self Defense Devices
Date: 21 Dec 92 17:01:11 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA

In article <1h2ih4INNo4b@mirror.digex.com> curt@access.digex.com (curt williams) writes:
>
>Does anyone know anything about the 80,000 volt electronic stun guns.
>I am not refering to the Tazer (sic) devices.  These things are big
>capacitors (I think) that store a very high voltage, low amperage
>charge and have to be held against an assailant for 2-4 seconds.
>They are powered by one or two 9 volt batteries.
[...]
>What I'm looking for is answers to the questions:
>
>       1)  how painful
>       2)  how incapacitating
>       3)  effective for how long
>       4)  does it knock out, immobalize or just disorient
>           (apparently, it doesn't kill, but if anyone thinks
>            it might, I'd like to hear from you real soon)

A couple of years ago somebody brought one of these to class at
the Shao-Lin school at which I studied in Denver. Two of the
more senior students, both of them, you might say, given to
somewhat rash decisions, got ahold of the thing and one zapped
the other with it. The victim's reaction was to shout "OW!" and
grab it to go after the other guy.

Now these guys were fairly tough; one of them was noted for practicing
shoulder-height flying scissors on a concrete floor without a
partner. The lesson I took away from this incident, however, was
to not expect these things necessarily to do more than irritate
a tough, determined opponent.