HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: er@iscp.bellcore.com (Elie Rosenfeld)
Subject: Re: References to Tolkien by Led Zeppelin
Organization: Bellcore
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 17:53:15 GMT

In article <2359@blue.cis.pitt.edu>, genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave) writes:
|> On the other hand, I think there's *every* reason to think that Tolkien was
|> having a bit of fun and suggesting that Aristotle, and all subsequent makers
|> of maxims, *really* got it originally from Bilbo Baggins, who coined the cliche
|> back in the pre-history of our world.  I seem to recall some comments in other
|> places in LOTR about aspects of Middle-Earth that persist into modern times
|> merely as vague memories or distorted legends.  (E.g. didn't Tolkien say

One of the cleverest examples of this is Frodo's lengthy verion of "The Cat and
The Fiddle", which professes to be the source of the single verse remembered
today.  And, of course, there's "Atalante" as one of Numenor's names.
-- 
Elie Rosenfeld      | "I am what I am, Leila -- and if there are self-made
Bellcore            |  purgatories, then we all must live in them.
Piscataway, N.J.    |  Mine is no worse than someone else's."
(908) 699-8800      |                     - Spock, "This Side of Paradise"
From: bergland@edb.uib.no (Magne Bergland)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Tolkien comics
Date: 25 Jan 93 10:01:44 GMT
Distribution: inet
Organization: University of Bergen

In article <ARI.HUTTUNEN.93Jan23195427@cardhu.cs.hut.fi> Ari.Huttunen@hut.fi (Ari Huttunen) writes:

>! Ha! I've finally found it - or rather them. Three comic book albums:
>! Fellowship parts 1 and 2 and Two Towers part 1. (TT part 2 and Return
>! of the King parts 1 and 2 seemingly never came out - a note in the the
>! TT part 1 says that it is the last book).
>
>If that's true, then they are not drawn by David Wenzel. It's my
>understanding that he's doing the whole Lord of the Rings. At least
>I have his version of The Hobbit. Recommended. You might try
>asking Eclipse Books, P.O. Box 1099, Forestville, California 95436.
>Or just try a local comics store.

I, too, suspect these are not by Wenzel. They sound like the ones based on 
the Bakshi movie. These were translated into Norwegian, so it's quite 
possible they exist in Finnish as well. They are (IMHO) quite awful, and not 
at all comparable to Wenzel's TH, which (IMHO again) is a very decent work. 
Is it true he's working on LotR?

 - Magne

Magne Bergland                             Bergland@edb.uib.no
Computing Centre, University of Bergen     TEL: +47 5 54 42 15
Edb-senteret, HiB, 5020 Bergen, Norway     FAX: +47 5 54 42 99
From: Michael.P.Colburn@dartmouth.edu (Michael P. Colburn)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: The ARKENSTONE
Date: 22 Jan 93 21:57:44 GMT
 <tlahdeoj.727706485@vipunen.hut.fi>
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0a5@newshost.dartmouth.edu

In article <tlahdeoj.727706485@vipunen.hut.fi>
tlahdeoj@lesti.hut.fi (Tuomas L{hdeoja) writes:

> >"The great jewell shone before his face of its own inner light..."
> 
> >These, and especially the last, certainly make it sound suspiciously like
> >a silmaril.    What do folks think ?
> 
> 
> And, if I recall correctly the dwarves guarded it _very_ jelously. As in
> Silmarillion the elves had done. hhrrmmmmmm.....

I don't think this has much relevance.  The dwarfs have always been
extremely proud of all their creations which, in my opinion, is the
reason the Arkenstone was so precious to them.  And if you'll remember,
prior to the incidents surrounding the theft of the Silmarils by
Melkor, the Noldor were very generous with their creations.  Besides,
didn't Feanor swear an oath concerning the silmarils which bound his
descendants to reclaim the gems at all costs?  This is a bit different
than 'jealous guarding'.

Mike Colburn                         =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Dartmouth-Hitchcock                  "Pulu-see-ba-goomba" -- Gilligan 
Medical Center                       =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Lebanon, New Hampshire  03756        :-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-)
From: peters@physics.ubc.ca (Dan Peters)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: tunes for Tolkien songs
Keywords: road
Date: 27 Jan 93 04:37:23 GMT
Organization: The University of British Columbia
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics.ubc.ca

reid@ucs.indiana.edu (Frank Reid) writes:

>Does anyone know other tunes which fit this or other poems/songs 
>from LOTR?  I've heard a few original compositions which really 
>suck.

Yeah... The Donald Swann tune for "The Road Goes Ever On" is ghastly.

Drin
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I think I think, therefore I think I am." 
- Descartes' failed attempt to discard the notion of objective reality.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mvoorhis@granite.WPI.EDU (Michael C Voorhis)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Searching informations about Elves Runes
Date: 24 Jan 93 21:17:16
Organization: RSUC -- Russell Street UNIX & Caffeine
NNTP-Posting-Host: granite.wpi.edu
In-reply-to: librik@cory.Berkeley.EDU's message of Sat, 23 Jan 1993 10:23:23 GMT

Do you know if it is possible to get the book in the United States?  More
specifically, you say that by contacting a bookstore in the UK we should be
able to obtain a copy of Mr. Allan's book; does this mean that it is NOT
available in the US for some reason?

	Thanks,

	Mike.
	(mvoorhis@wpi.wpi.edu)
From: tohall@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Dave Hall (Sverdrup))
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Power of races
Date: 26 Jan 93 20:07:00 GMT
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <C17u11.1r9@cck.coventry.ac.uk>, mjw@cck.coventry.ac.uk (Alien) writes...
> 
>However Gandalf himself says upon his return from the fight with the Balrog
>that " I have remembered much that I had forgotten and forgotten much that was
>familiar" (or WTTE). This causes me at any rate to think that Gandalf himself
>didn't know he was a Maia (consciously) although he speaks of "returning".It
>is very like what one would expect from one who has a spiritual journey of 
>some kind....

       Yes, this reminds me of another possible inconsistency regarding
Gandalf. As I recall, he is commenting about either Saruman's or Denethor's
use of the Palantiri. He says something about "How I wish I dared to use it,
to cast my sight back to the first age, and to witness the unimaginable hand
and mind of Feanor at work in his halls in Aman". Being a Maia, I would think
that !he was there when it happened!. At least, it is another hint that he had
forgotten some things, or perhaps when he was sent to ME, part of the 
transformation to a near-human form involved memory loss. 




>Also Saruman doesn't seem to remember the power of the "west" (Valinor)-
> he says "The West has failed" ,he no longer considers it 'real' being
> absorbed in mundane, 'middle-earthly' concerns.
> 

      I always though the West he was talking about was Numenor, whose
descendants ruled in Gondor.


                             Dave H.
From: damiens@cco.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Fate of Tuor
Date: 24 Jan 1993 23:18:26 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

As I remember one Man escaped the Gift/Doom of Men: that when Idril tired
of Middle-Earth, and Tuor was passing through his middle-age, that the two
of them took up the first Elessar and set sail for the West, even though
the Ban of the Valar was still up, barring the Noldor from returning.  And that
it was thought that they made it and that Tuor, alone among pure-blooded men
was allowed to change his doom and follow the fate of the Firstborn.  Any
corrections/comments?

And BTW: what happened to Tuor, Earendil, Elwing, Elrond, etc. when they chose
their fates?  Did their ears change shape or something?  Was it a matter
of 'becoming' elves or just of assuming their fate?

		-- Phoenix -- Damien R. Sullivan  [X-) Kiljoy]
6x9=42 | AIXELSYD | 1374245896=4 | Libertarian Dictatorship
Honk if you're American and have heard of Steeleye Span... 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: paul@pj.tmc.edu (Thorongil)
Subject: Re: Leather bound Tolkien book - any
Keywords: leather,tolkien
Organization: Mississippi State University ERC
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 16:25:45 GMT

Michael Currin writes:
>Hi All,
>A friend asked me to post a request for him so here goes :-
>  Does anyone know where I could get hold of a leather bound Tolkien book -  
>  it could be any of his books - it is for a gift.  Please send the companys
>  name and address not just telephone numbers.
>Many thanks,
>Michael Currin
>  - currin@unpsun1.cc.unp.ac.za


The relevant information I believe can be found in the booklist
compiled by William D.B. Loos.  Although no addresses are given,
any bookstore should be able to order the books for you using the
ISBN number.  Following is a portion of that list.  If you want the
complete list of Tolkien books as well as related ME works, just ask
and I'll repost it.

Thorongil

===============================================================================
===============================================================================


A) Principal Works - The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings

  The Hobbit.  Originally published by Allen & Unwin in 1937 (2nd ed. 1951,
      3rd ed. 1966, 4th ed. 1978) and by HM in 1938 (2nd Amer. ed. 1951
      [cloth] and 1965 [paper], 3rd Amer. ed. 1966); many editions are
      currently available, including special 50th anniversary editions;
      standard ones are:  HM, 1966 (ISBN 0-395-28265-9) (paper); Ballantine,
      1966 (ISBN 0-345-33968-1) (paper).

  The Annotated Hobbit.  Annotated by Douglas A. Anderson; HM, 1988
      (ISBN 0-395-47690-9).

  The Lord of the Rings.  Originally published by Allen & Unwin in 1954-55
      and by HM in 1955-56; revised edition in 1965; sometimes published as
      one volume but generally as three; the 1987 HM editions referred to
      below are the most recent attempt to correct the many textual errors
      that have crept in over the years.  [See the Note on the Text, by
      Douglas A. Anderson, at the beginning of FR of that edition.]

  The Fellowship of the Ring. HM, 1987 (ISBN 0-395-48931-8); HM, 1987 (ISBN
      0-395-27223-8) (paper); Ballantine, 1965 (ISBN 0-345-33970-3)(paper).

  The Two Towers.  HM, 1987 (ISBN 0-395-48933-4); HM, 1987 (ISBN
      0-395-27222-X) (paper); Ballantine, 1965 (ISBN 0-345-33971-1)(paper).

  The Return of the King.  HM, 1987 (ISBN 0-395-48930-X); HM, 1987 (ISBN
      0-395-27221-I) (paper); Ballantine, 1965 (ISBN 0-345-33973-8)(paper).

  Lord of the Rings.  Centennary edition, with 50 illustrations by Alan Lee.
      HM, 1991 (ISBN 0-395-59511-8) [$60.00]; HM, 1991 (ISBN 0-395-60423-0)
      [Signed edition (by the artist) -- $250.00].


Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: schere@aix.rpi.edu (Mithrandir)
Subject: Re: References to Tolkien by Led Zeppelin
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 17:01:22 GMT

Enya has a song called 'Lothlorien' on her new CD.  Sadly, I have insufficient
cash to buy it.
Mithrandir
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Many are my names in many countries.  Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkun to 
the Dwarves; Olorin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the 
South Incanus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: rjackson@cantor.math.uwaterloo.ca (Darkman)
Subject: Second Prophecy of Mandos
Keywords: There aren't any
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 01:48:03 GMT

Some time ago I posted an article asking if any knew what the second prophecy of Mandos was that I remembered reading in an index in Unfinished Tales.  There was
no response given except by one person who that the Doom of Mandos was what I was talking about.  However, while in a bookstore the other day, I saw the book called Lost Tales (book 1) and in it I actually found the second prophecy of Mandos.  In case any one else is interested in it, it goes something like this...

The watch in the sky will eventually sleep and Melkor will come back into Middle Earth.  TO combat him will be Earendel with his silmaril, Tulkas (the might Vala),
Finwe (The first Elf to be killed) and Turin will be recalled allong with his sword Gurthang.  There will be a great battle (called the last battle) and is said that Turin will give Melkor his death blow.  Then the world shall be broken and remade and the Silmarils shall be found and be broken that the light of the two trees may shine again, Valinor will be unfenced so that the light may go over all of Middle Earth.  The Elves shall be recalled from Mandos to help rebuild the world.  Of men, it is only sai




d that Turin shall return, no mention is made of any other men and it is assumed that they have left the circle of the world and hence can not come back.

That's about it.  I thought it was most interesting reading this.  If anyone has
this book, feel free to correct me anywhere.

Darkman
May the vermin from the depths of Hades arise and vomit on your eyeballs!
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Hobbits in the Undying Lands
Date: 25 Jan 1993 09:19:29 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

I have read and been convinced by the postings here that concluded that
Hobbits are close relations to Men.

But this raises a problem for me.  At the end of LOTR, Frodo and Bilbo
take the last ship to the Undying Lands.  Later, the appendices tell us,
Sam took a ship west to join them.

But if Hobbits are racially derived from men, isn't this a problem?
Aren't men strictly forbidden from going to the Undying Lands?

My impression is that Frodo, Bilbo, and Sam become immortal in the Undying
Lands.  Admittedly, this is not directly supported by the text, but it is
my general impression.  (I don't know if Bilbo would recover from his
senility, but I imagine it is possible.)  Wouldn't this withhold from them
the gift of Illuvatar to men?  Or am I wrong, and might the hobbits die
of old age in the Undying Lands?

And what about Gimli?  Does he achieve immortality also when he passes
west with Legolas (also noted in the appendices)?  (My impression is
that while dwarves live a long time, they eventually die of old age.
Kind of like Numenorians in that.)  And is Gimli the only dwarven 
inhabitant of the west?

Hopefully, this contains enough questions to keep us going for a while.
All reasonable answers and comments are welcome, and even the unreasonable
ones won't be flamed too badly.
From: waynebro@juliet.caltech.edu (Broughton, Wayne Jeremy)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Power of races
Date: 21 Jan 1993 23:44 PST
Organization: California Institute of Technology
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: juliet.caltech.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <C17u11.1r9@cck.coventry.ac.uk>, mjw@cck.coventry.ac.uk (Alien) writes...
>Someone was wondering whether Frodo and Aragorn knew that Gandalf was a
>Maia. Well doesn't it say somewhere in LOTR that Frodo pauses and asks 
>himself "What *was* Gandalf?" so at least at that point he did not know.
> 
I don't remember where that is, though it does sound vaguely familiar.  A
similar passage I can recall is in Minas Tirith when Pippin asks himself
"How old *is* Gandalf?", and realizing that G. seemed to be ageless.  He
might also have asked himself the same question as Frodo did above on that
occasion, but I don't remember.

>Also Saruman doesn't seem to remember the power of the "west" (Valinor)-
> he says "The West has failed" ,he no longer considers it 'real' being
> absorbed in mundane, 'middle-earthly' concerns.
> 
I don't know if he really considered it to no longer be real;  I think
he simply meant that the West had been unable to stop Sauron and had
become indifferent or irrelevant to Middle-Earth.  What was the context
in which he said this?

> Matt.
> 

**********************************************************************

Wayne J. Broughton                 Take the road less travelled by.  
waynebro@juliet.caltech.edu    

Caltech has no idea what my opinions are;  
they think I'm working right now...
From: damiens@cco.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Hobbits in the Undying Lands
Date: 28 Jan 1993 04:47:44 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

In article <1k3qagINN7ab@digex.digex.com> dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) writes:
>
>Also, note that this is a truly incredible gift, one not given to any
>of the heroes of the First Age.  (And I would think that, were it possible,
	^^ Tuor??

		-- Phoenix -- Damien R. Sullivan  [X-) Kiljoy]
6x9=42 | AIXELSYD | 1374245896=4 | Libertarian Dictatorship
Honk if you're American and have heard of Steeleye Span... 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Authority of History of Middle Earth
Date: 26 Jan 1993 11:38:45 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

I have recently been reading for the first time some of the volumes
of the History of Middle Earth series (in this case, volumes 6 and 7,
_The_Return_of_the_Shadow_ and _The_Treason_of_Isengard_).  I find 
them fascinating: they make for an interesting view into JRRT's
working patterns and the development of the characters, plots, and
themes that became the LOTR.

One thing that is clear in them is how much the basic elements of
LOTR changed in the course of writing.  As two examples: Treebeard
was originally envisioned as an evil giant working for Sauron who
captures Gandalf at one point, and Aragorn was originally a hobbit with 
wooden feet known as "Trotter."

In discussions in these parts, I notice that we often treat passages
from the History of Middle Earth and JRRT's letters as reliable,
definitive sources.  But given what I am seeing regarding the amount
of change that the Middle Earth material went through, I wonder just
how definitive these sources are.  It seems that they should be treated
more as notes for a work in progress than as definitive sources on
Middle Earth.

As an example on a recent thread, consider the names of Nazgul.  We
have heard here several names proposed as having come from various
volumes of the History.  However, names are among the more volatile
elements in the History.  As an example, consider Aragorn.  He is 
named, at various times, Aragorn, Trotter, Strider, Ingold, Elfstone,
and, to a lesser degree, Elfstan, Eledon, Eldakar, Eldamir, and
Qendemir.  Obviously, none of these earlier names is in any way
definitive: only the names that made the final cut into the published
LOTR can be viewed as definitive.  Given this volatility in names,
can we regard early notes unpublished by JRRT as at all definitive
in naming the Nazgul?

I realize that this would take away a major source for scholarship
in Middle Earth, and to some extent it violates the rules of the
ME scholar game (ie, the game wherein we try to find out more about
the real place called Middle Earth by extracting clues from the
writings of its primary interpreter, JRRT).  However, reading the
History makes it clear that Middle Earth is not a real place, but
rather the results of an extremely gifted imagination.

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: mss2@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Michael S. Schiffer)
Subject: Re: The ARKENSTONE
Reply-To: mss2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 07:10:25 GMT

In article <1jlg63INNqrt@gap.caltech.edu> damiens@cco.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) writes:
>In article <1993Jan20.014144.14531@midway.uchicago.edu> mss2@midway.uchicago.edu writes:

>After all, there are more
>>precious stones in the earth than the one remaining Silmaril, and the
>	Come again?!!?  This is the SILMARIL!  Containing the last light
>of the Two Trees in pure form (leave the Sun and Moon out of this), and
>which is of a type with the Morning/Evening/Messenger/whatever star, 
>Earendil. (I'm not saying that the Arkenstone==the Silmaril, just 
>poiniting out that there WOULDN'T be any stone more valuable.)

	My phrasing was ambiguous.  I meant it in the sense that there
are other stones, not more valuable ones.  I.e. there are more
*precious stones*, not *more precious* stones, if you see what I mean.
Sorry 'bout that.  I'll freely grant that a Silmaril is more valuable
(if only in the number of lives paid for it), though since none is
likely to go on the auction block the question of comparative value is
sort of moot.

Mike
-- 
Michael S. Schiffer, LHN, FCS	"I decline utterly to be impartial
mss2@midway.uchicago.edu	 as between the fire brigade and the fire."
mike.schiffer@um.cc.umich.edu	 -- Winston Churchill, July 7, 1926
mschiffer@aal.itd.umich.edu
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: tlahdeoj@lesti.hut.fi (Tuomas L{hdeoja)
Subject: Re: The ARKENSTONE
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: 22 Jan 93 12:41:25 GMT

In <C14IJB.9GF@cantua.canterbury.ac.nz> wft@math.canterbury.ac.nz (Bill Taylor) writes:

>"The great jewell shone before his face of its own inner light..."

>These, and especially the last, certainly make it sound suspiciously like
>a silmaril.    What do folks think ?


And, if I recall correctly the dwarves guarded it _very_ jelously. As in
Silmarillion the elves had done. hhrrmmmmmm.....

>              Bill Taylor              wft@math.canterbury.ac.nz

/tube
-- 
	Sex is like music; basically physics, but skills in physics 
			won't help you with it.
             So long and thanks for all the typos !!!!
Tuomas Lahdeoja /  tlahdeoj@vipunen.hut.fi  / Korkeavuorenkatu 24 a 9 00130 Hki
From: Michael.P.Colburn@dartmouth.edu (Michael P. Colburn)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Hobbits in the Undying Lands
Date: 27 Jan 93 01:22:35 GMT
 <C1FxKC.DMt@unix.amherst.edu>  <30840@castle.ed.ac.uk>
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0a5@newshost.dartmouth.edu

In article <30840@castle.ed.ac.uk>
proberts@castle.ed.ac.uk (P Roberts) writes:

> I seem to remember reading somehwere (Silmarillion?) that the dwarves
> believed that when they died their spirits were gathered into the halls
> of Aule (I think I'm remembering the right name).

I think it was something closer to Aule gathering them in the Halls of
Mandos apart from the elves, but I could be wrong. (close enough, eh?)
;-)  At any rate, after the Last Battle (when Melkor escapes from the
void), Aule with the aid of the dwarfs will rebuild Arda. (This is
according to the dwarfs as well.)

Mike Colburn                         =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Dartmouth-Hitchcock                  "Pulu-see-ba-goomba" -- Gilligan 
Medical Center                       =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Lebanon, New Hampshire  03756        :-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-)