HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad)
Subject: Re: pierrot lunaire
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 21:37:01 GMT

In article <Bvz6Br.E3v@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu> ujwb@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Jeff Beer) writes:

>I am looking for a version of Pierrot lunare, op 21, by Schoenberg.  I
>already have the version by the Budapest Chamber Orchestra/ Erika
>Sziklay, soprano.  There is much I like about this version, but think
>the vocal solo could be more convincing.

This is an interesting problem.  Schoenberg never quite solved what he
wanted with "Sprechstimme," and a later spoken piece (Ode to Napoleon)
simply indicates high, middle, and low pitch areas.  Schoenberg's own
performances apparently made very free with pitch, even with contour (he
wrote it for an actress, after all), and his statements about the device
over the years are sometimes contradictory.  His own recording doesn't
work very well (partly because, as he later confessed, they
underbalanced the voice), and the "start the spoken tone on pitch, then
glide away" approach, besides being hard to listen to, is based on a
false idea of how spoken pitch is perceived.

Anyway, I do prefer performances that pay some attention to the
vocal line's subtleties.  I have three favorites that do this in
different ways.

1.  Jan de Gaetani, Arthur Weisberg cond., Nonesuch.  The safest and
most easily available recommendation.  Without singing (except where
it's marked), the late Ms. de Gaetani makes the pitches clear and
conjures up a distinctive mood: cool and distanced.  The enclosed
translation is the best I've seen.

2.  Mary Thomas, Peter Maxwell Davies cond. the Fires of London,
Unicorn.  Dunno if this is out on CD, but grab it if you see it.  The
Fires originally called itself the Pierrot Players, and they really dig
into this piece.  Thomas does a virtuoso performance of the "extreme"
sort, using all kinds of vocal tone to underline the expressionism of
the work.

3.  Yvonne Minton, Pierre Boulez cond., CBS/Sony.  Minton hews so
closely to the notes that we have to call what she's doing singing.  But
by so doing, in company with Boulez, Pierrot becomes a rich voluptuous
experience, expecially with people like Barenboim (piano), Zuckerman
(violin/viola), and Harrell (cello) on hand.  This is the "deluxe"
version, and though I feel like I shouldn't love it, I do.

I wish I liked the Cleo Laine version better, because I like the idea of
her kind of performer doing it.  But the English translation she uses
doesn't fit terribly well, so the spoken inflections sound false.  I am
out of touch with the very newest recordings, so can't comment on them.

Jon Alan Conrad
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: bryan@netcom.com (Bryan Higgins)
Subject: Re: Brendel's Beethoven on Vox Box CDs
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 07:48:41 GMT

lampson@software.pulse.com (Dave Lampson) writes:

>"Fur Elise", a couple more bagatelle sets, ecossaises, and numerous shorter
>pieces have not been released.

It's on the "Variations and Vignettes" 3-CD Vox Box.
-- 
Bryan Higgins, Berkeley, California  (bryan@netcom.com)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: le01167@portal.lasc.lockheed.com (Ron Nadel)
Subject: Re: LA Phil
Summary: Inaugural Season
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Lockheed Aeronautical Systems Co. - Rye Canyon
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 92 04:19:14 GMT

In article <1992Oct9.215915.7226@math.ucla.edu>, jwebb@oak.math.ucla.edu (Janet Y. Webb) writes...

>	Did anyone go to the inaugural concert last night of the L.A. 
>Philharmonic with the new conductor Solenen?  There's been a lot of 
>talk in the LA Times about what a wonderful conductor S. is especially
>compared to Andre Previn but I am curious what the consensus here is.
>	What do LA folks think about S.?

Funny coincidence.  I just got home from the Sunday afternoon performance of
the inaugural concerts of Mahler's 3rd symphony, and logged on to post my
thoughts on it.  It was simply a terrific performance.  With all the
discussion lately of Mahler performances, this was a timely concert.

Esa-Pekka was great!  His conducting style is smooth, subtle, and compact.
The orchestra has never sounded better (the brass and string sounded like
some other orchestras that we think of in relation to those sections and
Mahler).  If they record this symphony in conjunction with these concerts
it will be a must get.  His attention to dynamics (one of Mahler's own pet
peeves) was meticulous and as I said subtle.  The same was true for his
tempi changes.  The mezzo was a Birgitta Svenden, and I have not heard of
her before.  She was great, conveying both sensitivity to the text and
projecting a wonderful sound.  I would be interested to know more of her
(Jon?).  She also performed so subtley, with her second "O Mensch!" just
perceptibly quieter than the first one.  The posthorn solo (performed by
4th trumpet Boyde Hood) was magical, the women and children's choirs were
excellent.  The brass performed flawlessly!  I detected no cracks from the
horns (12), and the strings had such a rich sound, I couldn't supress a smile
it was so sumptuous - particularly in the finale from figure 27 on, it was
like the light of heaven flooding in!  Solonen took an expansive tempo for
the finale, but never let the movement lose momentum or acquire that tension
that comes from impatiently waiting for the next note.  The opening movement
was electric ending on such a powerful note that the aplause broke out
from several places in the audience, and we all jumped to our feet at the
last note.  He received 3 curtain calls, and I could have gone a couple more.

Bravo Salonen!

Ron
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Glass meets Clive Barker response
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 14:55:51 GMT

In article <98436@bu.edu> jaeger@buphy.bu.edu (Gregg Jaeger) writes:
>In article <1992Oct13.022331.28418@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> Joseph.J.Marcheso.Jr.@dartmouth.edu (Joseph J. Marcheso Jr.) writes:

>>More Glass? What have we done to deserve this. He is a second rate
>>movie composer with his mediocre orchestration and obscene
>>derivativeness (Brief history of time) his opera about Columbus is set
>>partly in space with aliens (I doubt that will enter the pantheon of
>>Great artistic achievements) he was voted most Boring Composer by
>>concergoers for three straight years and I'll take Aida over aknaten
>>and pure silence over Einstien on the beach

>With this sort of reaction to new composers it's no wonder one cannot
>find an interesting program in this country anymore. Man!

You wouldn't happen to be a composer, would you?  8-)

(Or a grammarian.  I didn't see any reaction to new composer*S* -- just
to a single one...)

Roger
From: dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker)
Subject: Re: Opera in the vernacular
Organization: Camosun College, Victoria B.C, Canada
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 16:50:56 GMT

In article <1992Oct16.145132.13029@Princeton.EDU> roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:

   In article <1992Oct16.025310.12477@spang.Camosun.BC.CA> dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker) writes:
   >In article <CB.92Oct15101722@tamarack13.timbuk> cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster) writes:

   >[....]
   >   This brings up my anti-favorite musical treatment of words: "the bombs
   >   bursting in air" in the Star-Spangled Banner.  It would be easy enough
   >   to put "the" before the beat, unstressed, and give "bombs" a longer note
   >   on the beat, but we force the syllables into the predetermined musical
   >   line, with a resulting effect of "THUH-b'ms bursting in air".  Maybe we
   >   should trash it and use Bernstein's America, or maybe Springsteen's Born
   >							 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   >   in the USA, at baseball games.
   >   ^^^^^^^^^^^

   >Can I take it you haven't listened to the words Chris?

   Can I take it that it's been a while since *you* listened to Bernstein's
   _America_ (from West Side Story)?  8-)

   It was a joke, son.

   Roger

Well, fair enough Dad. I should point out in my defence that many
people *do* believe Loose Windscreen's Born in the USA to be overtly
patriotic. Didn't the Republicans want to use it in a presidential
campaign ad a campaign or two back?

Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept., Camosun College, Victoria B.C.

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad)
Subject: Re: Opera in the vernacular
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 18:27:29 GMT

In article <1992Oct14.081947.10567@bsu-ucs.uucp> 00hfstahlke@bsu-ucs.uucp writes:

>Can you imagine, for example, Porgy and Bess sung in Italian?  

I can not only imagine it, I've *heard* it (excerpts).  I had problems
keeping a straight face, as you can imagine; but presumably it works
fine for native Italian speakers.  Ok by me.

>The question:  what works do you see as simply untranslatable and why?  

>I suspect some of the Ring, though not all, would have similar
>problems....

I would disagree on that.  There will always be *some* loss in
translation for performance, and if one is really a devoted student in
the original language the loss must be major.  But the gains can also be
considerable.  I would call Andrew Porter's RING translation highly
successful.  It has been recorded, very well, by the English National
Opera on EMI.  Read his essay about it, printed as a preface to the
translation and in slightly different form in MUSICAL NEWSLETTER (he
goes into some problems of translation between other languages: the
universality of "feminine" endings in modern Italian, the difficulty of
handling French not-quite-mute E in English, etc.).  

The hardest places in a piece like the RING are, as Porter acknowledges, 
the simplest and shortest: what can you do, for instance, about "Heil 
dir, [probable breath] Sonne!" ?  As Porter notes, the only idiomatic
equivalents with the right syllables and stress are "Hi there,
sunshine!" or "Howdy, sunshine!" and they won't do.  So he had to settle
for a stilted "Hail, fair sunlight," and that puts the possible caesura
in the wrong spot.

As for which works are untranslateable, I hesitate.  One might say
20th-century operas closely tied to expressing the "natural" cadence of
their texts, like Pelleas and Melisande or the Janacek operas.  And yes,
in a sense those lose the most.  But in another sense, they GAIN the
most by being put into the vernacular (even if the vocal rhythms have to
be fiddled with): only by becoming actively involved in the words they
are saying can you experience the work with the right priorities.

So I don't know if I can come up with any examples at all.  Something
can be a gross violation of the original and still communicate something
vital.

Jon Alan Conrad
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: bmtong@cucs11.cs.cuhk.hk (Tong Bo-Ming)
Subject: Brahms 4th (was: Giulini Brunckner)
Organization: Faculty of Engineering, The Chinese U. of Hong Kong
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 07:51:23 GMT

rwh@visual.com (Rob Holzel) writes:

>>Giulini has recorded Bruckner 7th, 8th and 9th with Vienna Phil. (DG)
>>I find all three very good, the 9th is absolutly terrific.

>How right you are.  The best.

>One thing you can say about Giulini (and Tennstedt, for that matter):
>whatever unusual way they may approach a piece in terms of tempo,
>phrasing, etc., when they hit the mark, they produce something truly
>masterful.  I think both are at that stage in their lives that they
>are recording only works they feel very strongly about -- no more
>doing a symphonic cycle just for the sake of doing the cycle.

>The Brahms Fourth with the VPO is another great performance, in my
>opinion.  I read a rather negative review of it in one magazine. 
>This review, although disapproving, was well-enough written that I was
>able to extract key details about the performance, and hence determine
>that this would be the Fourth for me.  I was not disappointed at all.

>Rob

Previously, I thought that Walter/Columbia (CBS) was the best Brahms
4th, but after I heard that recording of Giulini/VPO (DG), I have to
change my mind !  The tempo is extraordinarily slow (over 14' for the
1st mvt.) but never dragging (on the contrary, Walter's tempo is fast
but you don't feel so).  It seems to aggregate slowly to reach a
massive outburst which is so convincing !  Giulini brought out each
thematic motive clearly (it's so often for people to be overwhelmed
by a sea of motivic materials when it comes to Brahms), but such is
never for its own sake.  Most importantly, it's deeply moving.

Would those who have heard this recording answer me a simple question ?
In the 1st mvt., 1st theme, there is a lyrical line by the cellos.
Is it doubled by the horns ?  Giulini covered the cellos almost
completely with the horns.  This does not happen in other recordings.
Is it in the score ?

						Tong Bo-Ming
From: simion@iveuncc.unive.it (Marco Simionato)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: comments on Lionel Rogg's Bach
Date: 9 Oct 92 15:53:30 GMT
Organization: University of Venezia (Italy)
X-UserAgent: Nuntius v1.1.1d9X-XXDate: Fri, 9 Oct 92 17:56:57 GMTLines: 6

I would like to know if Lionel Rogg's complete Bach organ works is
a good or reference edition. I have the choice of buying the full CD
set for an excellent price, at least according to Italian standards, but
for me art comes first.

Please reply directly, thanks.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: leiwo@phoenix (Jussi Leiwo)
Subject: Dr. Faustus
Organization: University of Oulu, Finland
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 09:15:24 GMT


I just happened to read Thomas Manns book Doctor Faustus. It's an extremely
good story about music, how Bach and Beethoven have done everything in the
traditional sonata, and how the new music has to get its ideas from war,
pain, disasters, from everything that is on the negative side of the human
thaughts.

The idea of the book, is that there is a young man, Adrian Leverkuhn, who
is very talent and intellectual. The music chooses him, and he will be the
one who starts creating new kind of music. He promises his soul to the devil
and gets these new ideas of music (I guess the idea is German folk lore).
The basis for 'the new music' is in Schonbergs music.

The book was excellent (Mann wan nobel price with his first book Buddenbrookit)
and it really is worth of reading. It is very hard job to read the book, but 
I think it really is worth it.

--Jussi
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: music@moravian.edu (Steve Heller)
Subject: Re: Need info on Kraanerg by Xenakis
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 92 17:09:59 EDT

In <1992Oct8.194957.22212@menudo.uh.edu> chem91@Elroy.UH.EDU ("Bill Harrison (713)-743-2789") writes:

>>(Analog) tape and 22 instruments -- largely extreme winds, if I remember
>>right, the clarinet family represented (for hypothetical example) by
>>Eb and bass.  Vance Bob says check it out.
>>
>>	Vance

>Agreed... It's typical(?) Xenakis, massive soundscape/texture music, for tape
>with woodwind/percussion doing their thing as well... You can't complain about
>value for money at 70+ minutes.

So, is Roger Woodward the _conductor_ or is there a major piano part
in it as well? Do you know if it's scored out or an improve sort of
thing (rare for Xenakis, if ever)?
-- 
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
#   export meaning_of_life=$(eval 'grep -i truth mind_of_god | sort -u')  #
# Work: music@moravian.edu  <#!AMIGA!#>  Home: moravian.edu!vortex!lothar #
*-------------------------------------------------------------------------*
From: kiisaka@csi.uottawa.ca (Ken Iisaka (the mad pianist))
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: _Ballet Mechanique_ by George Antheil
Date: 13 Oct 92 15:05:11 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, University of Ottawa

Ah, yes, _Ballet Methanique_ for the United ad would be... a riot ;)

It's actually a fun piece, with lots of humour.  I was a member of a 
percussion ensamble which performed the 4-piano + percussion version.  It was
fun.
-- 
Ken Iisaka               \ NEXT RECITAL  |12:00 pm, Thursday, January 7th, 1993
kiisaka@csi.uottawa.ca     \ Produced by |National Gallery of Canada, Ottawa
AI Lab, University of Ottawa \ CBC Stereo|Berg        Sonata, b minor, op. 1
H: +1 613 237 6642 W: 564 8155 \ 103.3 FM|Mussorgsky  Pictures at an Exhibition
From: marcs@slc.com (Marc San Soucie)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Glass meets Clive Barker response
Date: 16 Oct 92 23:16:26 GMT
Article-I.D.: slc.1992Oct16.231626.14609
Distribution: na
Organization: Servio Corp, Beaverton Oregon, US

Gregg Jaeger (jaeger@buphy.bu.edu) writes:
> Roger Lustig (roger@astro.princeton.edu) writes:
> > > dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker) writes:

> > > > Glass is derivative of Terry Riley and Steve Reich,

> >a) Nobody hums their tunes, either.

> I have to admit I hum portions of _Tehillim_!

I've even caught myself humming bits of 'Drumming'...

    Marc San Soucie
    Portland, Oregon
    marcs@slc.com
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: jefrank@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Jason E Frank)
Subject: Re: Glass meets Clive Barker response
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 13:29:01 GMT

In article <1992Oct13.022331.28418@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> Joseph.J.Marcheso.Jr.@dartmouth.edu (Joseph J. Marcheso Jr.) writes:
>More Glass? What have we done to deserve this. He is a second rate
>movie composer with his mediocre orchestration and obscene
>derivativeness (Brief history of time) his opera about Columbus is set
>partly in space with aliens (I doubt that will enter the pantheon of
>Great artistic achievements) he was voted most Boring Composer by
>concergoers for three straight years and I'll take Aida over aknaten
>and pure silence over Einstien on the beach

Glass-bashing at its most inane!  "Second-rate movie composer with
mediocre orchestration and obscene derivateness"?--I'm afraid to ask
how you would rate Vangelis and John Williams on these dimensions (not
like I feel the latter is even worthy of mention in the same breath as
Glass).  No matter what you choose to call his work, Glass if first and
foremost an innovator--his "Koyaanisqatsi" was one of the first modern
film scores to transcend our notion of "movie music".  His music packs
a hell of a lot of emotion (at least for those who can get past the
"repetitiveness"), and I for one am looking forward to seeing what he
comes up with to accompany Barker's new horror film (can ANYTHING be
more disturbing than "Music in 12 Parts"?).

Obviously, plenty of people out there must not find his music so boring,
or he wouldn't be as popular as he is or getting as many commissions as he
does as one of the most sought-after composers.  If you can't stand his
stuff, then fine--there are enough appreciative, open-minded people in the
audience that your presence won't be missed.

Now, anyone out there have any SUBSTANTIVE opinions?

--j.e.f.
From: pranata@watserv.ucr.edu (Krisanto Pranata)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: The Voyage, again
Keywords: The Voyage, Philip Glass
Date: 13 Oct 92 03:49:37 GMT

Hi there, Kris here again.

Now that 'The Voyage' has premiered, anyone out there care to share their  
experience (from those who saw it live and on the broadcast)?


Also I am asking the net people to help me in locating reviews of 'The Voyage.'  
If all of you out there would be so kind as to e-mail me a source citation of  
any (I mean ANY) articles concerning 'The Voyage' I would appreciate it very,  
very much. (just send me the source and title if possible).


Thank you for your patience:


kris

pranata@watserv.ucr.edu
From: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: EMI price increase
Date: 15 Oct 92 15:24:39 GMT
Reply-To: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Organization: COMANDOS Project, Glesga Yoonie

ssc@nwu.edu (Steven Chung) wrote:
> No doubt others know this better than I, but CD prices in England, for
> example, seemed to me pretty much in line with the rough 1 pound = 1 dollar
> standard of other similar items (books, movies etc).  The tax system is the
> culprit, I think.

Since there are sales taxes on books in some US states, and none in the UK
or most other European countries, try another explanation.

British VAT on CDs is 15% (ultimately only paid by the consumer, since
everyone else in the chain can claim it back).  The difference between US
and UK prices is far more than that, even if you ignore US state taxes.

-- 
--  Jack Campin    room G092, Computing Science Department, Glasgow University,
17 Lilybank Gardens, Glasgow G12 8RZ, Scotland   TEL: 041 339 8855 x6854 (work)
INTERNET: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk or via nsfnet-relay.ac.uk    FAX: 041 330 4913
BANG!net: via mcsun and uknet     BITNET: via UKACRL    UUCP: jack@glasgow.uucp
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: marca@ncsa.uiuc.edu (Marc Andreessen)
Subject: Re: Tchaikovsky Sextet?
Organization: Nat'l Center for Supercomputing Applications
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 03:08:20 GMT

In article <9210081731.AA25382@software.pulse.com>
lampson@software.pulse.com (Dave Lampson) writes:

   There's an excellent version on EMI (from a Melodiya recording)
   that was available until this year.  With Melodiya releasing so
   much of their own recordings now in the U.S., there's a good
   possibility this recording will again become available.  It was the
   only available recording of all three quartets in one release as
   well.

It is currently available (found it this weekend at Tower Records in
Austin).

Marc

--
Marc Andreessen
Software Development Group
National Center for Supercomputing Applications
marca@ncsa.uiuc.edu
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: velde2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Velde Francois)
Subject: Re: Music Club (Mail Order) Recommendations So
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 19:08:15 GMT

In article <1992Oct5.223929.5305@europa.asd.contel.com> ashley@oasis.gtefsd.com writes:
>In article 1aqbv1INN2u2@agate.berkeley.edu,  newton@garnet.berkeley.edu (Isaac Newton) writes:
>>Hello,
>>
>>I'm looking to join a music club.  If you have a recommendation
>>for one, I would love to know about it.  My main criteria is
>>selection, especially operas.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Newton
>>
>
>The two big mail order groups are BMG Classical Music Service and Columbia
>House.
>
>I belong to the former ... their startup arrangement is where you get four
>CD's free, buy one at regular price, then get three more free (when the
>inital one is paid).  You pay shipping and handliing as well.
>

Shipping and handling is $1.80 per disc.

>Their specials vary from offering to offering.  The basic one is buy one
>at regular price, get the next and 50% off, plus S/H.  Then, there are times
>where you can buy two and 50% and get the third free, or buy one at regular
>at get two free.  Again, you pay S/H for the discs ...

The regular price is usually $16. Almost always there is a sale of some kind:
either 5 for the price of 3 (40% off) or 3 for the price of 1. In the last 
case, when you count S&H it comes to $7.10 per disc.  The 3-for-1 sale 
occur about every other month at least.

>
>Each offering, there will be a "Featured Selection", and that comes to you
>automatically if you do not send in the card.  There is also a catalog that
>comes with the packet.  These usually arrive every 3 weeks (on average).
>

You have about a month to send back the card. In 3 years I've only missed
it twice.

>I've been quite pleased with BMG ... just when I think I've saturated the
>discs in the area that I like, along comes a new set of selections from which
>to choose.  It's certainly worth the initial investment (8 for the price of 1)
>to give them a try.

I've been pleased too. The catalog is rather mainstream (1750-1900), but
there are quite a few offerings in Baroque, Renaissance or Medieval music,
a reasonable amount of opera.

If you want to be a member, send me your name and address, I get 8 CDs
free for signing you up :-)

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical