HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: levine@symcom.math.uiuc.edu (Lenore Levine)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: She's baaaaack.....Camille Paglia
Date: 28 Sep 92 23:59:49 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

matt@physics.berkeley.edu (Matt Austern) writes:

>In article <1a81ioINNovv@lindy.Stanford.EDU> jon@lindy.Stanford.EDU (Jon Corelis) writes:

>>    As for finding evidence of the rank personal qualities attributed to
>> Paglia in the above quoted text, I'd suggest looking at any page of her
>> original Arion article, her MIT lecture transcript, or the interview
>> with her which was published in last Sunday's San Francisco Examiner:
>> if you don't find at least one of those qualities exemplified in the
>> first sentence you look at, you'll probably find it in the second.

>I have not yet read _Sexual Personae_; I suppose I probably will some
>day, because even if I disagree with most of what Paglia says, there's
>at least some chance that she will say something interesting somewhere
>in the book.

>I did, however, read an exchange between Paglia and Naomi Wolf in _The
>New Republic_ a couple of months back, and Paglia came across as 
>very vindictive and unpleasant, far more interested in ridiculing Wolf
>than in holding any kind of discussion.
>--
>Matthew Austern

Just like to note, that I read a chapter of Sexual Personae, in which
Paglia discussed the profession of mathematics -- something I know a little bit
about, since I am a graduate student in this field. She really didn't seem 
to know what she was talking about...

But read the damn book. You might be surprised -- it's only 95% baloney,
not 100%. 

Lenore Levine

P.S. An irreverent friend wonders why Ms. Paglia is so interested
in ridiculing Wolf. Could the lady have refused Camille her body,
or what? 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: fi@grebyn.com (Fiona Webster)
Subject: Re: More Notes from the Decline
Organization: Grebyn Timesharing
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 15:02:38 GMT

Mike Morris pens a mellifluous lament on the subject of "mellow":
>What startled me was, in the sequence of dismissed example mellows,
>just before the picture of the spaced-out hippie, who was
>deemed ``beyond mellow'', there was a rather busy photograph
>I had not before looked closely at. Turned out it was a man, sitting in
>a chair beside a fireplace, dog sleeping on the throw-rug at his feet.
>He's reading a book. The caption goes ``And this is a little too
>mellow even for us. You might want to check for a pulse now and then.'' 
>
>Mind you, the photograph wasn't quite a depiction of the total of my
>fantasied happiness...

And yet the corrections you suggest, mild as they are, might make all
the difference between whether this is a picture of the moribund Morris,
or the live-n-reading one.  I don't think I would have given this ad
a second thought, because if I found myself reading in a chair beside
a fireplace with a dog on a throw-rug at my feet, I, too, would wonder
what sort of bizarre afterlife I'd been banished to.  Aesthetics are
key to the personal reading experience.  I prefer a high-tech urban
flat with stripey night light from the Venetian blinds, a futon, a cat,
and very loud music (e.g., industrial, such as Ministry), as the back-
drop for my reading.  The scene you describe seems to feature the
sort of person who (to refer to another thread here) would buy the
items advertised in the _New_Yorker_--a Republican, that is.  In these
near-election times, I am deeply ashamed to have a sister who keeps
Golden Retrievers, and parents who still think that because George
Bush spoke at my high school graduation, that makes him a keen guy.
Leather armchairs, polluting fireplaces, houses with mortgages--fie!
get thee hence!  Only after my man is in the White House, will I
even consider compromising the imagery that frames my politics so far
as to endorse this view of reading behavior...

					--caveat for the easily
					  offended: I am entirely
					  serious about this,

							Fiona
From: cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Enforced Shakespeare?
Date: 30 Sep 92 22:31:23 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <1992Sep30.000632.5570@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU>, baker@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Andrew Baker) writes:
> In article <1992Sep29.212802.4550@epas.toronto.edu> sfysh@epas.utoronto.ca (Stephanie Moskal Fysh) writes:
> >It's bonkers because Shakespeare's English is now 375 or so years old.
> >Why should we be expecting 14-year-olds to comprehend it?
> 
> Even at 375, it is still more eloquent than most modern stuff.  I find
> the speeches by Brutus and Marc Antony to be easier to understand than
> typical speeches by Bush and Clinton, and certainly easier to understand

Of course, Shakespeare wasn't concerned about making a good sound bite.
He also wasn't running for office.  Oh yes, he wasn't an unprincipled
moron.

> >Stephanie Fysh
> >Dept. of English
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

GROAN.  Don't tell me this elitist egalitarian is faculty in an
English Dept.

The decline and fall of Western Civilization continues unabated.
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
Bush: War on Drugs, tax cut->bigger deficit.  Clinton: War on Drugs, spending
increase->bigger deficit.  What a great choice.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: fi@grebyn.com (Fiona Webster)
Subject: Re: Laurence Sterne's _Tristram Shandy_
Organization: Grebyn Timesharing
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 01:37:10 GMT

Vance Maverick writes:
>Did you see the black page? (Donald Barthelme picked up on this.)

Not only did I see it, I tried to make a few more of my own!  

_Tristam_Shandy_ bears the dubious honor of being the only book
I have ever spilled an *entire* ink bottle onto.  It was strange,
too: the ink seemed to leap, to move of its own accord.  Perhaps it
was drawn by the mysterious electromagnetic forces that surround every
copy of _Tristam_Shandy_.  Does anyone know the latest on the
research into these phenomena?  The last I heard, some famous physicist
had taken an interest in the problem..but I didn't hear much about
what she was theorizing.

							--Fiona
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,soc.history
From: loosemore-sandra@CS.YALE.EDU (Sandra Loosemore)
Subject: mutinies (was Re: WWII Novels?)
Followup-To: soc.history
Organization: staff hacker @ Yale Haskell project
	<1992Sep30.025238.25528@csusac.csus.edu>
	<1992Sep30.175245.4798@nas.nasa.gov>
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 18:53:05 GMT

(This is drifting pretty far from its original topic, so I've redirected
followups to soc.history.)

wismith@amelia.nas.nasa.gov (William R. Smith) writes:

   I believe the USS Constellation,
   sister ship to the USS Constitution (Old Ironsides) was mutinied during
   the War of 1812 off the coast of Chile.  The ship put into an off shore
   island for repairs.  The crew was made very welcome by the native population
   and when the officers ordered everyone back on board following the repairs
   a group mutinied and refused to leave.

This doesn't sound right.  Constellation (which was a smaller ship than
Constitution -- a 38 vs a 44) was captured by the British frigate Shannon
outside of Boston Harbor in mid-1813.  The US frigate that was cruising
the Pacific was Essex (nominally a 32, but armed mostly with short-range
carronades).  Essex was captured by two British ships outside the neutral
port of Valparaiso in Chile, but there was no mutiny involved as far as
I can remember from my reading.

I am pretty sure I have seen references where the 1842 Somers mutiny has
been described as the *only* such event on a US Navy ship.

I suspect your memories about a mutiny involving an island with
friendly natives stem from "Mutiny on the Bounty".

-Sandra
From: gxs11@po.CWRU.Edu (Gary Stonum)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Nietzsche Kietzsche Koo (was: stuff about Camille Paglia)
Date: 30 Sep 1992 01:01:13 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: gxs11@po.CWRU.Edu (Gary Stonum)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc12.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, heidi@wolf.net.com (Heidi Wolf) says:
>
>
>Perhaps Camille Paglia is to feminism what Nietzsche's sister was
>to Nietzsche's philosophy....
>
>
>Heidi Wolf
>


Now there's a GREAT put-down!
-- 
      ||    Gary Lee Stonum                gxs11@po.cwru.edu    ||
      ||    English Department                  216-368-3342    ||
      ||    Case Western Reserve University                     ||
      ||    Cleveland, OH 44106-7117                            ||
From: mattb@ctron.com (Matt Brown)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Literature students
Date: 30 Sep 92 19:33:04 GMT
Reply-To: mattb@olympus.ctron.com (Matt Brown)
Distribution: world,local
Organization: Cabletron Systems INc.

(Vijay Samalam) writes:
>(MICHAEL WISE) writes about Hemingway
>>However, the style of writing, short, terse, objective, devoid of 
>>adjectives,is a style we are taught in an abstract way to value.
>I was struck by the above statement. Is it really true ? The average 
>reader, at least judging by the bestseller lists, does not seem to be 
>particularly fond of the lean and spare style.

I don`t find these statements mutually exclusive in the least. 

What has value, and what sells, are often mutually exclusive. You don't
see many critics calling Tom Clancy a modern Hemingway (or a modern
anything significant, for that matter). I like Clancy's techno stuff,
but he's no Hemingway, and his stuff is unlikely to make it to the lit
courses as a follow-on read to _For Whom the Bell Tolls_.

It's not that Hemingway's style is a joy to read, and therefore is a model
for best sellers. Far from it. But he accomplishes things with that style
that were fresh and new in his time. He implied more with his terseness
than many authors could with pages of flowery narration. People compared
his style to reportage, but the stories were hardly Sunday features.

Teddy Roosevelt types (anachronisms even then) would enjoy Hemingway
stylistically. Modern bestseller readers probably don't.

Matt
Just my opinion

And another thing...he didn't hate women, he hated everybody.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: travers@iwarp.intel.com (Jim Travers)
Subject: Re: literature students
Organization: Intel iWarp, Beaverton, Oregon, USA
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 16:44:53 GMT

In article <69081@hydra.gatech.EDU> barclay@RAIL9000.gatech.edu (Barclay Blanchard) writes:
>Have any of you literature students/professors been bothered by how many
>students spout formulae instead of thinking for themselves?  It seems to be
>the bright younger ones who do it and I vaguely remember having done it 
>myself.  (Is it a natural phase?)  They get all kinds of attention and praise
>from the teachers for doing it, too.

>  [much of Barclay Blanchard's post left out]

  It's so much more rewarding to read books and get my
>own ideas about them than to read them and wonder what will impress an
>English teacher.  That seems to be a sign of being ready for graduate
>school.
>


Perhaps, as your comments suggest to me, the behavior is related to the way 
the education system functions.  Are students rewarded for thinking for 
themselves?  My recollection of college lit profs was that some did encourage 
(even demand) that students think for themselves, while others wanted 
their charges to learn formula readings.  

Jim Travers

>
>-- 
>Barclay Elizabeth Blanchard    barclay@rail9000@gatech.edu
>"I've been laughed at by some of the funniest people."
>--Lissie, Alice Walker's _The Temple of My Familiar_


Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: Exit Shakespeare....
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 16:37:44 GMT

In article <1992Oct2.142331.15720@cs.brown.edu> ks@cs.brown.edu (Kate Sanders) writes:

>If by Shakespeare's Shakespeare, you mean a useful source of material,
>both Plutarch and Holinshed were "Shakespeares." But if you mean a
>dominating figure in the field, whose work is both challenging and
>intimidating to newcomers, surely the answer has to be Homer or
>Virgil, or maybe "the classics" as an amorphous mass.

Plautus and Sophocles, I'd say.



--Mike




-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact 
mnemonic@eff.org| of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, 
(617) 864-0665  | both are transformed."
EFF, Cambridge  |                           --Carl Jung 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: wwhitman@nevada.edu (MICHAEL WISE)
Subject: Re: literature students
Organization: University of Nevada System Computing Services
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 03:39:06 GMT

I stand corrected on the issue of Barclay's level in the university. 
P'haps I can explain some things about the politics of being an 
upper-level English major.

First, there are two kinds of professors: those that have views and
those that don't. The ones that have views seldom enjoy having their
views contradicted. For those professors, it is important for a young
aspiring English major to brown-nose as much as possible, by sticking
either to the professor's interpretation or to some formula that has
come into the language like a mantra (just what Barclay complained of).
It's safe, and one doesn't look like a troublemaker when grade time 
comes around. The second kind allows the discussion to run much too 
far away from the topic. Any student who has any experience with the
literature, relevant or not, is allowed to speak his piece, and the
professor makes no judgement on those assertions. 

So if you stick to the formula you're always safe, but how does that
help you improve? It doesn't, but for most English majors it's enough.
The trick is to find the elusive THIRD professor, the one who wants 
you to react to the literature, but will let you know if you've gone
too far afield. I model my own teaching on a professor of English that
I had once that was exactly like that, opening us up but also providing
us with information and interpretations that we would never have seen.
I think that is what Barclay is looking for, and I thank her, and Mark
Taranto, for saying that I would be a good professor for her. I just
finished evaluations, and my self-esteem is at a low ebb. I sincerely
appreciate the vote of confidence.

Michael Wise

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: fi@grebyn.com (Fiona Webster)
Subject: Re: She's baaaaack.....Camille Paglia
Organization: Grebyn Timesharing
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 17:12:44 GMT

Mike Godwin writes:
>You're misreading Paglia. She's not talking about STDs.

What are STDs?  

					--Fiona
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: cochran@spam.rtp.dg.com (A. Jing Hippy)
Subject: Re: Lady mystery writers (was Sue Grafton)
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 92 19:45:02 GMT
Organization: A Suffusion of Yellow

I haven't been following this thread, so forgive me if this has already been
mentioned.

I've grown very fond of books by Sharyn McCrumb.  The first couple that I read
seemed to follow a set pattern, but her writing style and her humor offset
that pretty well.   I'm particularly fond of her books that have
Elizabeth McPherson as the main character.

She has two books that take place at science fiction/fantasy fairs:
"Bimbos of the Death Sun" and "Zombies of the Gene Pool".  Neither of these
were as good as her other books, IMO, and I think that I have now read them
all.

+--------------------------------------------------+
|Dave Cochran, Data General Corporation, RTP, NC   |
|cochran@dg-rtp.dg.com                             |
+--------------------------------------------------+
|Dr. Pavlov's distinguished career came to an      |
|abrupt end one day when the doorbell rang and the |
|dog ate the Avon lady.                            |
+--------------------------------------------------+
From: Bryan.Jones@f1010.n391.z1.FidoNet.Org (Bryan Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: The body Thief
Date: 29 Sep 92 15:49:30 GMT
Article-I.D.: nwark.717885378.0

Anyone heard anything about this book?  It is the latest Anne Rice novel in
her Vampire Cronicles

Bryan Jones

---
 * Origin: Sky Net BBS *The Machines Shall Rule* 501-575-5589 (1:391/1010)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: James Branch Cabell
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 20:04:36 GMT

klein@frith.egr.msu.edu (Jeffrey Klein):
>  Last weekend I picked up Cabell's FIGURES OF EARTH in the library --
>I tried to get through it, but it wasn't really engaging so I ended
>up skimming the second half.  Does anyone have a suggestion as to
>which Cabell book I might like to read next?

The three books I think of as standing out are "Figures of Earth",
"The Silver Stallion", and "Jurgen".  Read one of the other two,
and if it doesn't engage you either, perhaps Cabell just isn't to
your taste.

-----
Dani Zweig
dani@netcom.com

   'T is with our judgements as our watches, none
   Go alike, yet each believes his own
		--Alexander Pope


Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: hayward@biblio.ucs.sfu.ca (Michael Hayward)
Subject: Re: Edward R. Hamilton Bookseller
Reply-To: hayward@sfu.ca
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 17:29:52 GMT

In article <1992Sep29.225200.13671@ultb.isc.rit.edu>  
entpph@ritvax.isc.rit.edu writes:
> Edward R> Hailton is tops.  They ship the same day or the next
> day after receiving the order.  They have never failed to honor
> their guarantee about refunding for any reason, and they have
> always replaced damaged books without any questions.--Now, if
> only someone could get them to layout their catalogue other
> than in phone book style.

Do they handle orders from Canada? And if so, how would one go about  
obtaining a copy of their catalog?
Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:17572 rec.arts.sf.written:13380
From: cs202144@umbc8.umbc.edu (cs202144)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Notes on Asimov's "Foundation" trilogy
Date: 4 Oct 92 16:57:38 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, Baltimore County Campus

Well it's quite abit larger than a Trilogy, but I have a question...Does anyone
know, if ever, when the novel Forward the Foundation is comming out? I was
originally told sometime this year, but now I'm not so sure.
From: barclay@RAIL9000.gatech.edu (Barclay Blanchard)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Books as decoration?
Date: 4 Oct 92 19:10:20 GMT
Organization: Georgia Tech Research Institute

In article <xaap=9_@lynx.unm.edu> rsquires@cyclops.eece.unm.edu (Roger Squires) writes:
>	...and did not
>	get very far -- it was too darn boring.  _Penguin Island_,
>	or something with 'blue' or 'dolphin' in it.
>
It's _Penguin Island_.  I read it around 1985.  One edition was a poor 
translation apparently and was deadly dull; I tried another and it was good 
reading.


-- 
Barclay Elizabeth Blanchard    barclay@rail9000@gatech.edu
"I've been laughed at by some of the funniest people."
--Lissie, Alice Walker's _The Temple of My Familiar_
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: sfysh@epas.utoronto.ca (Stephanie Moskal Fysh)
Subject: The Shakespeare Thing
Organization: University of Toronto - EPAS
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 12:46:26 GMT

I just want to say that I've been quite shocked at the responses I've
received, including what can only be called hate mail, to my
suggestion that Shakespeare be put back to the later years of high
school.  I had no idea that my proposal would be considered to be so
horrifying, and have been amazed at some of the misconstruals of my
statement and assumption about myself that have appeared here.

I have taught Shakespeare and enjoyed it.  I have also been amazed to
find students who love the works of Milton and Pope and Swift (I'm
quite a Chaucer fan myself, and have read _Clarissa_ 4 times).  I do
not think that young people are universally stupid and must be treated
as such.  I do think that something is amiss in our educational
system, and I suspect that part of the problem is in the way English
is taught.  I believe that high school graduates who go on to
university should be fully literate.  Unfortunately, that is not the case.

I don't blame Shakespeare for this.  I only suggested that perhaps the
focus of English in those earlier years of high school is slightly off
somewhere.  I also admit that I only know what is taught here in
Ontario in the public high school system.

My apologies to anyone whose sensibilities I offended.

Stephanie Fysh
Dept of English
University of Toronto

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: olsen@Csli.Stanford.EDU (Diane Olsen)
Subject: Re: Books in the time of school
Organization: Stanford University CSLI
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 00:17:21 GMT

In article <1992Oct3.175258.25914@cactus.org> kate@cactus.org (Katherine M. Catmull) writes:
>As for books: I have an old habit of asking people "What's the book
>that got you through high school?"--you know, the book that
>kept you going, made you strong; that you re-read when in need of bucking up,
>perhaps even returned to in college like a teddy bear once in a
>while, maybe even occasionally now . . .

I don't really have one, as I seldom re-read books.  But there are two works --
one book, one play -- that I DO re-read every few years, with great pleasure:

Friedrich Duerrenmatt, _Der Richter und sein Henker_
    A short, drily funny detective novel.

Friedrich Duerrenmatt, _Die Physiker_
    A funny/serious play about, among other things, the morality of physics.

I was lucky enough to see a production of _Die Physiker_ when I was in Berlin
two years ago.  It's a very accessible work;  still, I felt as though I'd 
'made it' in my study of German when I was able to watch the play and 
*comprehend* about 99% of it as if it were in English!  Never having been    
lucky enough (yet) to live abroad for a while and become really fluent, 
I was very proud of myself.

--Diane

P.S. -- I know of other fun (IMHO), accessible (also, of course, IMHO) 
German books.  If there's interest, I might post a list.  Does anyone 
have a list of comparable books in some other language?  I'm particularly 
interested in French and Spanish, though I wouldn't mind having some 
Norwegian, Icelandic, or Japanese titles for future reference.

-- 
Diane L. Olsen		"A woman with a mind is fit for all tasks."
olsen@csli.stanford.edu		--Christine de Pizan (c.1363-c.1431)
From: gwr@trna.lanl.gov (Graham W. Redgrave)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Books Reach OUT!  (Was:  Re: Literature students)
Date: 30 Sep 92 20:35:59 GMT
Article-I.D.: newshost.1992Sep30.203559.25812
Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory

In article <1992Sep29.230755.17512@grebyn.com>, fi@grebyn.com (Fiona Webster) writes:
|> 
|> Seriously, though, I'm fascinated by mapping relationships, by
|> one-to-one correspondences between paired systems.  The text
|> of the book can be mirrored by the text of physical reality, or,
|> looking at it the other way 'round, physical reality can
|> alter the text of the book.  (Now I recall that Mark T. just
|> proposed a thread on the latter topic--how love affairs influence
|> reading.)

Senior year of school I took an eight-week preceptorial on 
_The_Brothers_Karamzov_ that blew the world wide open (actually, Mark, 
now that I think about it, this was during the time I was meeting 
and falling in love with my wife!).  I subsequently wrote my 
Senior Essay on BK, and the Winter after I graduated, started
attending Quaker meeting.  The Brothers_K was a necessary,
if not sufficient, cause of my entering upon the practice of
this particularly mystical flavor of Christianity.  I am officially
now a member of the Sante Fe Monthly Meeting.  Wild.  (No doubt
there were other factors involved, but I cannot doubt the deep
influence upon me that that book had.)
 
|> 						--Fiona

-- 
Graham Redgrave    |    --  I don't speak for the government, 
gwr@life.lanl.gov  |        but I wish the government would speak for me ...  --
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books