From: vkb57@cas.org ()
Subject: Re: How typical (and pathetic)...
Organization: Chemical Abstracts Service, Columbus, Ohio
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 06:46:15 GMT

In article <11486.3248.uupcb@factory.com> michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos)  writes:

>
>Erland (Egg on his face after being astonished to find out that Italy
	================
How eloquent!

>was not democratic in the 1930's:) writes:
>
>>So dismiss the source if you like. (But I don't find your arguments
>>convincing at all.) Now, tell us what's wrong with the French 1900
>>encyclopedia which says the same as the Italian one.
>
> In 1900, your description of Macedonia would have been accurate,
>because Macedonians were living in great numbers across Vardar and
>Pirin. In many cities of today's Vardar and Buglaria (like Bitola
>(Monastiri) and Plondiv (Phillipoupolis)) Greeks outnumbered Slavs by a
>wide margin. There were sizable Greek communities as north as Kosovo.
>
> After 1913, that Macedonia was divided. In a peaceful population
>exchange, Greeks in the north departed for the south, and slavs in the

That is not true and you are, or at least should be,  aware of it. There has
been no peaceful exchange of population whatsoever involving the territory of
the Republic of Macedonia and that matter has been discussed on the net ad
nauseum.  Serbia,  that got the territory of the Republic of Macedonia in
1913, had no more interest in having Macedonians on its soil than Greece had,
and never made any exchange agreements in that respect.

>south departed for the north. Like in many cases where there was a shift
>in borders and population, the name "Macedonia" can no longer be used to
>describe Vardar, now that the Macedonians have left. Can Belarus name
>itself "Poland"? Can Poland name itself "Prussia"? Can Slovenia call
>itself "The Austohungarian Empire"? Can Vardar name itself "Macedonia"?
>
Hey,  you really know how to pick'em.  Slovenia means "the land
of the Slavs" in Slovenian;  the case of Prussia and its name metamorphosis is an often
cited argument that demonstrates the absurdity of the Greek claim on the name
Macedonia.
>
> The population exchange took place in 1913. It is old news. Greece does
>not make any territorial claims today against Bulgaria or Bardar based
>on pre-1913 population figures. But Vardar is talking about "millions of
>[Slav]Macedonians living in Greece", "illegal partition of Macedonia",
>etc. etc. Why are they reviving a problem that, as far as Greece is
>concerned, was solved by the 1913 population exchanges?
>
You have not seen responsible claims of millions.  The case for
200,000-300,000 is however well documented and detailed quotes on that have
been posted.  As far as the "as far as Greece is concerned" business is
concerned,  I am affraid that's not far enough.  Sadam also tought that as far
as Iraq was concerned,  the problem of Kuwait was solved by the 1990 invasion.

> They are talking about name-changes in Greece after 1913. Yes that did
>happen. That's the whole point about a population exchange. Greek cities
>in Vardar and Pirin bacame Serb/Bulgarian, and Serb cities in Greece
>became Greek. (Actually it was not a matter of changing names, but
>of making official the use of Greek names, as opposed to Slavic
>ones. Cities that had no popular Greek names, like Kilkis, Servia, Skra,
>Florina still have Slavic names. Why would the Greeks "rename" any

I always thought that Kukush was renamed to Kilkis and Lerin to Florina.  Did I
miss something.

>cities, yet not rename the large city of Kilkis? Why would they, after
>1913, name a newly formed province "Kilkis"?). That happened in 1913
>with the cooperation of Greeks and Slavs. It was the only alternative
>to a Bosnia-style conflict where Serbs want control of all
>Serb-inhabited areas, and moslems want control of all moslem-inhabited
>areas, and Croats, and there is so much suffering as a result.
>
> You are talking about "hellenization" of Slavophones in Greece. Part of
>the population exchange agreement was that each family could decide for
>themselves where they wanted to go, and what nation they belonged to.

They were Macedonian Slavs and they wanted to stay in their ancestral land of
14 centuries.  The had no other place to go anyway,  nor much of a chance of
geting anywhere where they can survive.  Very few,  if any,  of the ones that
were driven out by the horrors of the war or the etnic cleansing raids
survived.

>Greece had absolutely no reason to force non-Greeks to stay in Greece,
>when there was an agreement for their departure. Do you have any proof
>that persons wishing to exit Greece in 1913 were denied that right?
>
Gee,  that sounds very much like not denying the right of the Auschwitz
inhabitants to enter the gas chambers.  Or the right of the Palestinians stuck
on the snowy mountain between Israel and Lebanon to exit Israel.

Are you devoid of human feelings or you just think that the nongreeks are not
human.  I can't really continue this.

>Michael
>
Vasil