From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: Men's Mysteries
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 00:27:36 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.172742.14391@uwm.edu> 
pst@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Peter Stephen Thomas Iii) writes:
>After following the "men's mysteries" thread for a while, I think a general
>consensus <as much as any can be reached thru the Net> that male mysteries
>are needed.  The question then becomes, where to start?

I may be off base here, but I would think the library. Any pre-Christian
or pre-Islamic culture will just about do. I assume you are American,
why not look into how the prior Americans lived here, and still do.

>I think a appropritate place would be with rites of passsage from boy to
>manhood.  

Yes, that is the starting point. I'm wondering if you have just thought
of this out of the blue, or if you have been reading. As you go on later
to state, men don't have an indicator of the phases of life. This is the
purpose of male initiation. Joseph Campbell covers the subject well, in
my opinion. I'm not sure how these concepts reappear today though. We
don't have very good cross-generational ties, each generation is out to
get the most for its generation. It's an unfortunate trend that is
difficult to cancel once started. So, perhaps the answers lie in
cross-generational ties, for both men and women. Maybe we can leave
something behind, instead of trying to die with the most toys.

>To digress for a moment, it is my opinion the lack of a "rite of passage" for
>males in US culture is a major cause for anti-social behavior.  

Well, careful here, don't feed into the family values propaganda. I
think the cross-generational ties is first, then maybe a rite of
passage. Some people have been proposing manditory service for young
adults to give them values, that's a big load of ... The first place to
start with values is the federal budget deficit, followed by the federal
debt, followed by an emphasis on education. It is the elders who must
sacrafice, it will not work any other way. I'm in the middle in terms of
age and it seems to me that the major cause for anti-social behavior in
youth is the standard we have set. Now as for how to address the
national issues I have mentioned, I don't know how to start, other than
not vote for either of the two major parties. But the local issues,
cross-generational ties are readily addressed. Youth is looking to us
for direction, it is easy to give without being fatherly or
condescending, and elders are looking to us to pass something on, it is
easy to listen, particularly the stories of surviving the depression
whose tales may come in handy soon.

>For women, there is a clear, physical sign that she is no longer a girl, but
>now she is growing into a mature, women: the onset of menstruation.  
>For males there is no clear sign.  Worse yet, our culture doesn't provide any
>way of marking that change clearly.  Legally, when we turn 18, we're an
>adult, but it isn't indicated in any clear fashion.

That's the central message of Robert Bly and that clan. Of course the
reality is that women are as messed up as men are. Oppresion destroys
the minds of oppressed and oppressor alike. 

>IMHO, young men going out, joining gangs, getting drunk, engagin in other
>such behavior is their way of saying:  this is how I prove myself, this is
>how I show I'm an adult now.  

Yeah, it is. What other options have we left them? Center on the self
and all the other selves lose. Guess what? We are those other selves and
we are losing, big time.

>Back on topic.  I think the first thing we need to address as a men's mystery
>is the idea of what it is to become a man and the responsibilities that go
>with it.

Hmm, what it is to become a man. Well, what's a good way to summarize an
answer? How about, it is to do the right thing as only a man knows how.
How about a responsibility to seven generations back and seven
generations forward? How about a responsibility to our children, it is
the women who bear the burden of childbirth and early care, what role do
we play? How about a responsibility to defend those who are not as
strong as men, the women and children? What is it that men have to
offer? Sperm, companionship, guidance, a father's perspective, strength,
support, role models, the courage to not be a brute when it is not
called for, the courage to backdown from conflict, the inner strength to
not strive for first place when others are more deserving, the inner
strength to step off the throne of control? I'm just rambling, I leave it
to you to make something of it, if you would be so kind.