From: secsu@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Ralph O. Clark)
Subject: Re: Macedonia: History and Reality
Followup-To: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center
Date: 31 Aug 1992 19:09 EST  

In article <9224423.7722@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU>, sachz@montebello.ecom.unimelb.EDU.AU (SAS) writes...
> 
>On the Macedonian Matter:
> 
>          This letter is dedicated to the Freedom Fighters
>                of Macedonia E V E R Y W H E R E
> 
[the following are only excerpts from the most incredible piece of
imaginative writing since the National Enquirer]

>They claimed that the Macedonians are a leftover
>Slavic tribe from the carpathian Alps, which settled on the
>Balkans in the 6th Century A.D., although in not many words.
>The implication of this would be the forfeiture of the true
>Macedonian identity even with the name. In such a case, the
>name "Macedonia" would have been borrowed (stolen) from its
>rightful owner. 

Given the incredible claims advanced below, this in effect supports
Greek claims that the Slavo-Macedonians really do have no right to
the name "Macedonia".

> 
>   SLAVICISM IS ONE OF THE THREE FUNDAMENTAL CAUSES OF ALL THE
>MISFORTUNES AND CATASTROPHIES OF THE MACEDONIAN NATION, WITHOUT
>THE MERCILESS EXTIPATION OF SLAVICISM, HELLENISM AND COMMUNISM -
>THESE VIRUSES ON THE BODY OF OUR NATION - THERE IS NO CHANGE OF
>BUILDING A NEW-BORN MACEDIONA!!!

Sounds like ethnic cleansing to me.

>        WHO WERE THE ANCIENT MACEDONIANS?
> 
>   The Macedonians originally came from India. Their language
>derived from Sanscrit. 
         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>They were called Macedonians under
>Alexander the Great. Before this period, the Macedonians were
>cally Myceneans, and before that - Trojans (of whom spoke the
>Trojan ie. Macedonian poet Homer in his "Iliad", and before
>that - Titans. The land they lived in was called "Ludia". 

Ancient Troy and the area called "Lydia" are in Asia Minor, i.e. part
of *Middle Eastern* Turkey (not even European). Are you going to claim
them, too?

>They
>were of an Aryan stock as the remains of the language proved
>(eg. voda-water, bebe-baby, tri-three, sestra-sister, nos-nose,
>etc.) 
All of these except "bebe" are *identical to modern Russian and probably
several other Slavic languages. Are you suggesting that Macedonian has
not undergone any sound shifts in over 3000 years? "Bebe" looks like
a borrowing from French to me. It's common enough in regions that have
been conquered many times by different groups.

>They were related to and spoke a dialect of the language
>of the Thracians and the Phrygians. This language is today
>classified as a "Slavic" language, and is similar to the language
>of the moderm-day Macedonians. Their religion was polytheistic,
>and is known today as "Greek mythology". Yes, the "Greek" gods
>were in actuality Macedonian! Each God was a member of the
>Macedonian Royal Dynasty, and was worshipped as a God-myth once
>he/she died. In a similar way, Tito became a modern day god.

I.e., modern-day Macedonians still practice polytheism and have deified
a Communist.

>All the gods including Zeus, Hercules, Apollo, Macedon eetc,
>were Macedonians. The city of Athens was names after Princess
>Athena, daughter of Zeus. This princess became a god after her
>death. As subjects of Macedon the Great, son of Zeus, we became
>known as Macedonians. Macedon's mother name was Europe, after
>whom the same continent was named. Macedon united the Macedonian
>tribes (Pelagonia, Paeonia, Pieria, Latinnia, etc.) into a
>uniform, homogeneous rave. 
                      ^^^^
Aha! So that's when it started! Or is that just a Freudian slip?

>They gave the world the Olympics,
>which is also today credited to the Greeks! The first gold medal
>winner of the Olympics was Millan Krotonski, who lifted a four
>year-old calf. For this reason, the Olympics were to be held
>every four years. The morals and values of the Macedonians were
>sunnarized in Aristotle's "Nichomechean Ethics", where all were
>bound by the willing consent of all humans - by love. These
>Macedonian morals were imposed on other nations during the
>campaigns of Alexander, and later by St. Paul, a Macedonian on
>his mother's side, was responsible for spreading the
>Christianity throughout the world.
> 
>   The Ancient Greeks were numerous semitic peoples,
>predominantly dark-skinned Phoenicians and Egyptians.

The Egyptians are/were a *Hamitic* people.

This explains the tremendous gulf between Ancient Greek and all
Semitic languages, I suppose, and the similarities between
Ancient Greek and the other Indo-European languages?

> They
>came as regufees from Persia around the 5th Century B.C..
>Alexander the First, the "Philhellene", felling sorry for these
>"people", allowed them to settle in Philantria and occupy what
>is now Pirea and Attica. The Acropolis, a masterpiece of
>Armenian genius was to become the property of the Greek. Not
 ^^^^^^^^
Wait a minute. You mean it's not Macedonian?
Well, at least it's not Greek (had me worried for a long time!).

>surprisingly, Alexander the First was the only philhellene
>(friend of the Greeks). Ever since the Greeks arrived on the
>Balkans, they have been nothing but trouble. In contrast to
>Macedonian culture and morality (Christianity), the Greeks have
>brought to mankind everything that is considered to be evil:
> 
>1. Slavery, which modern Greek scholars call a "democracy".
>2. Homosexuality, of which Plato is a fine example.
>3. Lesbianism, which is named after the Island of Lesbos.
>4. Prostitution.
>5. Human Sacrafices to the gods. The Greeks worshipped stone
>  gods irrespective of the mythological Macedonian gods.
>6. Pedigrees. Only Greek-speakers were regarded as civilized.
>  All those that did not speak Greek, including the Macedonians,
>  were regarded as barbarians. As a Macedonian, Aristotle was
>  denied citizenship to the Greek city-states, although he was
>  Plato's best student.
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Yeah, we all know what he really did all that time with his faggot
teacher (see above) 8-).
Of course, we all know by now that this author does not share the
vice of regarding non-Macedonians as barbarian! How very Greek
of you! Maybe Macedonians are Greeks after all....

>7. Futile wars and fueds, such as the Peloponnesian Wars.
>8. Education exclusivly for the rich. The Macedonian philosopher
>  Aristotle advocated an "education for all".
>9. And much, much more!...
> 
>   It is by no coincidence that "Grk" in Ancient Macedonian
>means "one who suck blood of another". In Latin, "Graeciano"
>means "thief!". 

Do you actually speak or read/write *any* language but modern (Slavo-)
Macedonian and broken English? Where on Earth do you get this BS?
(not to flame anyone for their broken English, but this guy claims
linguistic expertise).

>In the wars against the Romans, the Greeks
>treacherously sided with the enemy, only to find that life under
>the Romans was a thousand hells. After waking up to reality, the
>Greeks (whose culture is really Athenian) began to pray to their
>stone gods (not Macedonian) for the return of the human
>Macedonian Empire. The Greek treachery against the Macedonians
>was to be repeated in the war against the Ottoman Emrpire (15th
>Century) 
Sure was rotten of those treacherous dogs to get conquered by the Turks,
huh?

>when they were awarded an aristocratic status within
>the Empire. Other examples are the Ilinden Uprising, balkan
>wars, W.E. Second, and now again when one third of our country
>is pushing for its freedom. And who says history never repeats
>itself?
[...]
> 
>        MACEDONIAN LANGUAGE
> 
>   After the battle of Chaeronea, Achaea was regained by
>Macedonia. An academy in honour of the Macedonian philosopher
>Aristotle was opened, and it was called the Lyceum. Prostitution
>and human sacrifices to the gods were banned. Slavery was also
>prohibited, since the Macedonians had no concept of slavery.
>Slaves were set free, and slave traders and the high aristocracy
>were forced to till the soil. But Alexanders dream was greater...
>put simply - universalism. Alexander conquered the known world,
>spreading "Hellenism" wherever he set foot. Even the foremost
>authorities on Alexandrian Studies and Ancient Macedonia
>highlight that Hellenism is really Macedonianism. Here I would
>like to take the opportunity to correct Susan Braithwaite in her
>claim that the "Koine" (common language of the empire) was Greek.

Well, at least "Koine" is a greek word (meaning "common").
And this view (that the language was Greek) is held universally,
so you've got a lot more than Susan Braithwaite to contend with.

>If we were to assume that the Macedonian Empire was a
>Greek-speaking empire, then why doesn't the "known world" today
>speak Greek? Why do these "Hellenized" countries speak Russian,
>Polish, Cheho, Slovakian, Slovenian, Croatian, etc.? BECAUSE
>LANGUAGES ARE DIALECTS OF THE ANCIENT MACEDONIAN LANGUAGE!
>THROUGH THE CAMPAIGNS OF ALEXANDER THE GREAT, THE MACEDONIAN
>LANGUAGE BECAME THE COMMON LANGUAGE OF ALL NATIONS WITHIN THE
>MACEDONIAN EMPIRE! IT WAS NOT CYRIL AND METHODIUS THAT
>LINGUISTICALLY MACEDONIZED THESE NATIONS, BUT ALEXANDER THE
>GREAT! The Macedonian rulers of Egypt (Ptolomy 1st - 15th) could
>not even speak Egyptian, let alone Greek. Even Cleopatra, a
>Macedonian, could not speak Greek.

What does the name "Cleopatra" mean in Macedonian? In Ancient
Greek, it means "woman with a famous father".

> 
>   But why do the tombstones of Philip and the rest have Greek
>inscriptions? They are not written in Greek, but in Macedonian!
>The Greek alphabet was derived from the Macedonian alphabet
>(over 50 lettters). 

Do you have any ancient texts using these letters? There are Greek
inscriptions and papyri going way back to before Alexander's time.

>In turn, the Phoenician alphabet was derived
>from the Greek alphabet, only without the vowels. Arhaeology
>(Egyptian-Phoenician-Greek-Macedonian) would be ridiculous.
>After all, how do you derive "alpha-beta-gamma" from
>heiroglyphics? Even the Latin alphabet comes from the dialect of
>the Ancient Macedonian tribe of Latinnia.

Right. And only after the Greeks took over and simplified the
Macedonian alphabet, say around 500BC (before Periclean Athens),
the Phoenicians took the Greek alphabet over and simplified it
still more (who needs vowels, anyway?). And then they passed it
on to the Hebrews, who made a few more changes and *then*
used it to give written form to the Hebrew scriptures, which had
somehow already existed for hundreds of years. Of course, by then
everyone was already speaking "Macedonian Koine", the *real*
official language of the Roman Empire.

> 
>   So what happened to a lot of the "Greek" (Ancient Macedonian)
>letters from our alphabet? A lot of the complex letters over the
>century have changed into simple letters. For instance, the
>Ancient Macedonian "ol" was used in words or names like "Volsi"
>(Or "Wallachians" in English). Over the centuries, in Macedonia,
>the complex letter "ol" changed to the simple letters "la". So,
>from 'Volsi" we have "Vlasi". However, in Poland, "ol" changes
>to "lo", and so we have "Vlosi". In Russia, "ol" changed to
>"olo", and so we have "Volosi". The examples are countless, and
>are studied in the field of linguistics.
> 
>   Unfortunately, this is not the only cause of the loss of some
>Ancient Macedonian letters. Pro-serbian scholars Mihajlo
>(Mitich) Apostolski, Strahil Gigov, Lazar (Kolishevich)
>Kolishevski, and Belgrade academic Blazhe Koneski have beenfound
>by the Macquarie University Macedonian Society (M.U.M.S) guilty
>of sabotaging the Macedonian alphabet and language. In 1946-47,
>they irresponsibly modified the Macedonian alphabet by omitting
>letters such as: "ja", "ju", "shch", etc. to make it look more
>like the Serbian alphabet. With this crime, they made our
>language look like "South Serbian" and handed over the true
>Macedonian alphabet to the Russian colony, Bulgaria.
> 
Uh-oh. Look out, guys. If the Slavo-macedonians succeed, you will
all be shot for cultural sabotage.
> 
>   So why did the Ancient Macedonians have Greek names? To state
>with, these names are not Greek but Macedonian! The Greeks have
>simply added suffixes like "os" and "is" to these Macedonian
>names to make them sound Greek. Hence, from Alexander we have
>Alexandros, from Amynta - Amyntos, from Socrat - Socrates (a
>Macedonian from Thessaly), etc. Modern day Macedonians do not
>use these pagan names anymore because today they are christians,
>Moslems, jews, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc.

Strange that all those "Macedonian" names have actual meaning in
Greek but not in Macedonian.

> 
> 
>        WHO WERE THE SLAVS?
> 
>   This is a crucial point in anti-Macedonian propaganda. Most
>of the historical falsifications and fabrications emenate from
>the "arrival of the slavs". Etymologically, the word "Slav"
>originates from the Ancient Greek word "sclavin", which means
>"SLAVE". So, when the Byzantine emperors and writers speak of
>Macedonian slavs, they are referring to Macedonian SLAVES,
>not a particular ethnic community or race! The word "sloven"
>also has no ethnic basis. In Ancient Macedonian, "slovo" means
>"the written word", or "the known word". The person that knew
>many written words - a learned or educated person - was called
>"sloven". In English "Sloven" means a dirty, untidy person.
>In Italian, it means someone hopeless without any orientation.

Looks like maybe the Italians got it right, if they got it from
this Slavo-macedonian.

> 
>   The slavs (slaves) were harvesters that were brought to
>Macedonia every year. They were intermarried with the existing
>Macedonian population, but left Macedonian once their job was
>finished. Annually, around 30,000 such slavs (slaves) were
>borroed to harvest the Macedonian wheat with their sickles (rpi-
>Srbi, or Serbs). As far as the barbarians (avars, Antes, Huns,
>Goths, etc.) are concerned ... they came, and the macedonians
>repelled them ... they never settled! The case of St. Dimitrius
>(Dimitri) Solunski is illustrative, as is written in "The
>Miracles of St. Dimitruis" ("Chudesata na Sveti Dimitrija").

Demetrios (from "de", divine, + "meter", mother)---another Greek name.

>The only barbarians that did settle were the Bulgars. They
>settled in northern BUlgaria, and even today they are still
>there with their relatively conspicuous Mongol features. The
>BUlgars are Tartars who never intermarried with the existing
>population (Thracian and Macedonian). They came from the River
>Volga in 674 A.D. and were known as "Volgari" (Vulgar). Later
>they were called "Bolgari", which in Hungarian and Ancient Greek
>means "homosexual". 

But I thought it was the Greeks who were the homosexuals?

[...]
> 
>   Even if we reasoned "in the old ways" (propagandistic) and
>assumed for a minute that the Macedonians were Greek, then why
>is it only the Macedonian Greek became "Slavicized" while the
>Greek Greeks remained Greeks? After all, didn't the Slavs
>penetrate as far as the Peloponnese? Were the Greek Greeks any
>different from the Macedonian Greeks? If so, doesn't that mean
>that the Greeks were a different breed from the Macedonians
>altogether? Apparently even if the old argument where
>"slavicizing" is the key to understanding the Balkan nations
>did have a basis in fact, it manifestly defeats itself.

Funny how only the Macedonians were unaffected by all these invasions.

> 
> 
>        WHO WERE CYRIL AND METHODIUS (KIRIL AND METODI)
                                                 ^^^^^^
You mean his *real* name was Metodi? What meaning does that name
have in the Macedonian language?
> 
>   This is also why they were pesecuted later on. After their
>deaths, St. Clement revived the Macedonian alphabet and called
>it the Cyrillic Alphabet! I would also like to correct Blagoja
>Stojanovski in his claim that the Byzantine Empire was Greek,
>and that Samuils Empire was Macedonian.

Well, there *are* all those historical chronicles, etc., written
in Greek. And the emperors all took Greek names. And the capital
was in Constantinopolis ("city of Constantine", in Greek).

>1. Virtually none of the Byzantine Emperors were Greek.
>  Justinian, the man who wrote the laws (Corpus Juris Civilius)
>  which is the basic foundation of western law - is a native of
>  the village Bardovic, Skopje! Constantine the great, the man
>  who made the Christian Church a corporate state institution,
>  was a native of Nish!!

It's only the Communist/Hellenist/Slavicist dogs who control the
western European historical establishment and call the place
"Nicea" (= place of victory, in Greek).

>2. The coins of the Byzantine Empire have the letter "M"
>  inscribed on them, which means Macedonia.

Naw. It means "Mama". or "moro" (= fool, in Greek). or "Methodios".
or "malakas".

>3. The symbol of Macedonia (16 point sun) is present on the
>  church feescoes.
>4. Why was Constantinople chosen as a capital and not Athens.

We all know, of course, that Constantinople is in Macedonia!

[...]
> 
>Published in Australian Macedonian Herald, 19th August 1992.
> 
>   If any one has a question regarding Macedonian history
>(ancient and modern) or cultural, please forward your letters to:
> 
>Gligor Apoleski
>Macquarie Uni, Macedonian Society (M.U.M.S.)
>Box 76, Level 1
>Student Council Union BUilding
>Macquarie University 2109
>Sydney N.S.W.
> 
>   Written on the 17th Zhetvar, 7500 - by the Macedonian Calendar.

1992 A.D.    = 7500 Macedonian
1 A.D.       = 5509 Macedonian
1 B.C.       = 5508 Macedonian
5508 B.C     = 1 Macedonian

The Macedonians thus trace their "history" back 5508 years, i.e. beyond
the dawn of civilization in Sumer, Egypt, India, etc.

> 
>Gligor Apoleski (fwd)
> 

You forgot to show the Macedonian ancestry of Christopher Columbus,
Richard the Lion-Heart, Napoleon, Thomas Edison, and Madonna.

See you at the check-out line. Which of those rags will you be writing
in?

Ralph

-- Despite my obviously English name, I am *not* a Macedonian.
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8314 soc.culture.greek:8177 soc.culture.europe:7880 eunet.politics:1138 talk.politics.misc:42701 talk.politics.theory:3922 soc.culture.bulgaria:1250 soc.culture.turkish:9483