HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: pardo@cs.washington.edu (David Keppel)
Subject: Hubs built for straight spokes
Summary: Elbow-less spokes & special hubs claimed to reduce breakage.
Keywords: break flange hub spoke wheel
Organization: Computer Science & Engineering, U. of Washington, Seattle
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 92 04:55:41 GMT


Today in the trusty rusty bike shop I saw hubs with ``flanges'' built
for elbow-less headed spokes.  The ``flange'' is an N-pointed star
with N equal to 1/4 the total number of spokes.  Each point has `depth'
as you look at the side (axle stub) of the hub.  That `depth' is
drilled with a pair of holes, perpendicular to your axle-side view.
Each hole is drilled to point tangentially from the flange to the rim.
Each hole is countersunk for a spoke with a head but no elbow.

The guy at the shop said the goal is to reduce spoke breakage.  He says
most spoke failures happen at the elbow.  He said the design seemed
reasonable to him: it seemed to him like it addressed a real problem,
namely occasional breaking at the elbows, but there was nothing to say
either way whether it actually solved the problem.

I'm curious if anybody knows more about these designs.  I note a few
things:

 - I've seen straight-spoke hubs for bicycles that weren't worthwhile
   because the design was flawed in ways that had nothing to do with
   wheel strength.

 - I suspect there's more material in the ``flanges'' than in regular
   hubs.  If some of that were put in to the spoke at the elbow, it
   would probably reduce elbow breakage.

 - Spokes are not generally fatter at the elbow, indicating that either
   elbow breakage is not (perceived as) a problem, or adding material
   at the elbow doesn't solve the problem.

 - BMW used a straight-spoke design in the 60's.  Although most new
   BMW's use cast wheels, it is my impression that recent spoked BMW
   wheels have all used spokes with elbows.

If there's any technical advantage to be had from the straight-spoke
idea, even if it comes at some penalty, what is that advantage, and
what is the penalty?

I'm not planning on buying a set of them -- but enquiring minds want to
know!

	;-D on  ( I spoke my mind -- Wheelie! )  Pardo
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: Bernd.Kischnick@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Bernd Kischnick)
Subject: Re: Hubs built for straight spokes
Summary: straight spokes survive higher tensions
Keywords: break flange hub spoke wheel
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 17:57:46 GMT

In article <j7jn4gf.tomk@netcom.com> tomk@netcom.com (Thomas H. Kunich) writes:
>In <1992Sep1.045541.2408@beaver.cs.washington.edu> pardo@cs.washington.edu (David Keppel) writes:
>>
>>Today in the trusty rusty bike shop I saw hubs with ``flanges'' built
>>for elbow-less headed spokes. 
>A french company, Roval, builds hubs like this also
>and they have built 20 spoke hubs for a long time. They seem to
>work and while it is reported that they still break the occassional
>spoke it isn't nearly as often as bent spokes.

True. I've been using a set of Roval wheels for some years now.
They have got 18 spokes on the front wheel and 24 back.
Roval even produces a set with 16 spokes front and 21 back.

I haven't broken a single spoke, while during the same time
several bend spokes have failed on other wheels --- all of them
broke at the elbow.

Although Roval provides a very stiff, high rim, the spoke tension
is still higher than on a conventional wheel. So for me
this seems to prove that indeed straight spokes do not break
nearly as easy as bent ones.

I think the design of the rear wheel is particularly clever:
On my 24 spoke wheel, I have
8 (!) radial spokes and a low flange on the left side,
and 16 crossed spokes and a pretty high flange on the right.

I notice a bit of aerodynamic advantage over conventional wheels.
But more than that, I notice that the wheels are very hard and 
uncomfortable, so I'm back to my normal wheels most of the time.
But when I want to go really fast, it's Roval time :)

A totally different question:
Why do some of the pro teams use rear wheels
with crossed spokes which are soldered together
at the outmost crossing point?

-   Bernd.

urgent email to bernd.kischnik@cdc2.ifum.maschinenbau.uni-hannover.dbp.de


--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
From: shenry@cs.rice.edu (Sam Henry)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: QUESTION about aero bars
Date: 27 Aug 1992 14:46:20 GMT
Organization: Rice University, Houston

>>In article <1992Aug25.100911.8781@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com>,
erdmans@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com (Check your gravity at the door.) writes... 

>>>I am thinking about purchasing SCOTT Lemond II Clip-On Bars.
>>> 
>>>The bars come in 4 different extension sizes, ...
>>> 
>>>Does a method exist where I can measure ... to determine which
>>>extension size would be best for me? 
>>> 
>>>Thank you for any information you can provide.
>>> 
>>>Scott
>>> 
>In article <26AUG199211304246@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov>
tohall@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Dave Hall (Sverdrup)) writes: 

>>    My understanding is that these are WIDTHS, not extensions. ...


In article <1992Aug26.224712.27170@athena.mit.edu>
stigmata@athena.mit.edu (???) writes: 

>i am sorry, but in this case your understanding is wrong. :) ...

I'll agree with your method of measurin the arm length

>and this should be taken to rec.bicycles.tech , if your system has it.

but not your method of posting.

This started out as a query about an equipment purchase and advice
pursuant thereto.  Therefore, rec.bicycle.marketplace.

Or, you could be right and this is so technical that r.b.tech is as
correct. 



-- 
sam henry <shenry@rice.edu>
Wanna ride?
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: marcs@slc.com (Marc San Soucie)
Subject: Re: Tandem Question...
Organization: Servio Corp, Beaverton Oregon, US
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 01:45:13 GMT

Ryan A. Border (border@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov) writes:

> Antonio Tello (snoopy@crchh426.BNR.CA) writes:

> > I am soliciting comments on the Cannondale tandem,
> > does anybody have anything positive or negative to say ?

> > Do any other tandems of this apparent quality / rigidity
> > exist ? (eg Specialized ?)

> Not if you want 700c rims.  

Ah, hold a minuto. The Santana racing frames are as good and as stiff as 
the Cannondale frames. The Santana one-notch-below-the-racing-frames may be 
as good, but I haven't compared them. Lippy also makes a similarly designed 
frame that ought to be as stiff, and is certainly as well built.

    Marc San Soucie
    Portland, Oregon
    marcs@slc.com
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: rrempel@selkirk.sfu.ca (Rodney Dwight Rempel)
Subject: Re: top five innovations
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 02:24:02 GMT

blagdon@engin.umich.edu (Kenneth James Clark ) writes:

>My limited study of engineering would suggest that an elliptical chainring
>could indeed have advantages.  I don't think anyone would try to say that
>we humans put out even power throughout a revolution.  So is the 'uneven'
>cadence the proposed problem?  Is that it?

Cams make a lot of sense when you are trying to match a load to a 
changing force; Nautilus weight machines are a good example (whether
they make you stronger faster is another point, but they will keep
you working near your maximum strength). The interesting thing is
that, if you watch the weight on a Nautilus machine it speed up and
slows down, even if you are moving at a constant angular velocity.
Same thing on a Biopace sprocket, if you aren't using a freewheel
and have the bike on a roller or suspended and you try and pedal at
a constant cadence the drive wheel will be going fast-slow-fast-slow...
 ... hardly what you want for a bicycle.

It seems that if you were riding slowly, under heavy load, the system
would have a chance to work, but as the bike velocity built up - and
you were attempting to ride as close to a constant velocity as possible
- this would do little except force your legs to undergo an additional
angular acceleration and deceleration every half cycle ... 

I dunno ... it all sounds like market hype or misguided application
of a scientific finding to me...

Rod Rempel - rrempel@sfu.ca
Department of Kinesiology, Simon Fraser University 
... if two million people do a stupid thing it's still a stupid thing.

Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: kiisaka@csi.uottawa.ca (Ken Iisaka (the mad pianist))
Subject: Re: Summ. of Frame Materials for Review
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, University of Ottawa
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 92 20:07:12 GMT

In article <88dnkzk.tomk@netcom.com> tomk@netcom.com (Thomas H. Kunich) writes:
>
>This would appear to mean that all these TSX tubing frames are
>just so much hog wash. SL or SLX should be identically ridgid.

That's just about correct.

-- 
Ken Iisaka  kiisaka@csi.uottawa.ca : Just got back from Aspen, Colorado.
Artificial Intelligence Laboratory : Please be gentle.  I have to get 
University of Ottawa, Ont., Canada : acclimatised to the low altitude here.
H: +1 613 237 6642     W: 564 8155 : I was a mountain goat there...
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: curtw@euler.jsc.nasa.gov (Curt Wiederhoeft)
Subject: Shimano STI for 105 backwards compatibility?
Organization: LESC
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 15:00:35 GMT

My BG came in the mail yesterday, with a  "new for '93" article.
It says that Shimano will have an STI setup for the 105SC group,
but I'm wondering just how much of my current hardware I'll have
to replace.  Ideally, it would just be the levers, but if I've 
got to swap derailleurs and cogs, I probably can't afford it.

Does anybody have the full rundown on this? (Hey, maybe it's 
finally a legitimate excuse to unload that Biopace chainring...)

Curt Wiederhoeft             |    "I'll 'memento mori' YOU if you 
curtw@euler.jsc.nasa.gov     |    don't get rid of that skull NOW."
-or- @astro.jsc.nasa.gov     |           -Heather McLean (my wife)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: glp7584@tamuts.tamu.edu (Gordon Lee Powell Jr)
Subject: Cateye mount repairs
Summary: repair of cut mount wire--possible?
Keywords: Cateye Vectra, repair
Organization: ~/lib/organization
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 23:55:45 GMT


Hello,

Due to a recent mishap, I need to repair the pickup wire on my
Cateye Vectra computer.  The wire was cut about 2 inches from the
handlebar mount.  There is plenty of extra wire, so the 2 inches 
lost is no big deal.  

Would it be best to try to splice the wire or should I try to 
reconnect the free end inside the mounting unit?

Any help or suggestions appreciated.

Gordon L. Powell, Jr. '89            glp7584@zeus.tamu.edu (VMS on VAX 9000)
Aero Engr  Texas A&M Univ.           gordon@aero.tamu.edu (D. U. on S. C.)
Oh well, some people can flame in a nitrogen environment.--Les Earnest
From: v008pcqu@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Patrick E Tuxbury)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Cannondale Bottom Bracket Question
Date: 31 Aug 92 01:10:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41


     Could someone tell me whether the bottom bracket for a Cannondale racing
frame is English threaded or Italian threaded.  Thanks.
								patrick
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: markd@cup.hp.com (Mark_Donohoe)
Subject: Re: I Can't See
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 18:48:46 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1.3 PL5

**bj** (camlau@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu) wrote:
: In article <1992Aug27.162008.14837@athena.mit.edu>, aviator@athena.mit.edu (Joakim Karlsson) writes...
: >I got tired of bugs, rocks, dirt, and branches in my eyes, so
: >I bought some protective eyewear..... Slight problem: They fog up......
: >.....Is there a way to prevent this? ....... 

: Downhill skiers have this problem all the time.  Go to your local ski
: shop.  They have a whole array of anti-fog clothes and treatments for
: very little $ that you can apply to your lens.  That should solve the
: problem.

Don't bother spending money...when analyized, the majority of these products 
turn out to be soap and water.  Use soap (ivory or some such) and then wipe
clean...will last for a while...you can even do this in your bath room with
the mirror and see that it works...(soap it, clean it, take REAL hot shower).

I like the other alternative too...don't ever stop. :-)
--
Mark Donohoe (markd@cup.hp.com)

Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: kenl@origami.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Ken Lehner)
Subject: Ultegra Short Reach Brake Levers
Organization: Bellcore
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 92 19:12:57 GMT

Does anyone have any info on the compatibility of Ultegra short reach
brake levers (the ones for small hands) and Campy Athena brake calipers?

Are there any other short reach levers around?
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: MEDELMA@cms.cc.wayne.edu (Michael Edelman)
Subject: Re: Building a Bike Frame (from scratch)
Organization: Wayne State University, C&IT
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 18:44:34 GMT

In article <9209011709.AA27620@suned1.Nswses.Navy.Mil>
jkb@suned1.Nswses.Navy.Mil (John K Bunk) writes:
 
>
>Hi!
>
>Has anyone ever built their own bicycle frame from scratch?  How much
>welding / brazing skills do you need?  Should I just forget about
>building my own frame unless I have megadollars equipment (rentals)
>and supplies?
 
Not at all. A good torch can be had with a sset of small cylinders for
under $100, used. Look around. My pal Barry, whose frames are absolutely
beautiful and have been ridden by some fine riders (2nd in the Ironman
last years, woman's division) is entirely self-taught. He read up on the
subject, looked at a *lot* of bikes (he was a mechanic for 15 years before
he started framebuilding), bought some tubing and built a bike. He rode
it for a year and then hacksawed it apart to inspect the joints.
 
Since then he's built a lot of frames. Some have been more sucessful
than others. He's a had a ton of fun along the way.
 
I'd suggest enrolling in a class at the local community college or
similar and learning to braze. Then buy a torch and start playing around.
You could probably get a bunch of discarded bike frames for free, saw
them apart and develop your fillet-brazing skills ;-)
>
  [...]
>
>Also, if any books or magazine articles exist on the subject of
>frame building, please let me know!
>
I'll ask him.
                     --mike
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: sjlt@leland.Stanford.EDU (Sean Lev-Tov)
Subject: Re: Difference between Shimano RX100 and 105 components
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 92 15:05:17 GMT

I have a Specialized Sirrus with RX100 stuff.  About a month ago I was hit
broadside by a mountain biker and both wheels were trashed.  When I cut the
hubs out of the wheels (for rebuilding), I was surprised that the holes in
the flanges were egg-shaped.  The spokes were actually pulling through (about
3500 miles were on the wheels).  Since this is my first pair of wheels that
has been destroyed, I don't know if this is normal or not.  If it's not normal
then I'd stay away from RX100 and 105 hubs.

Sean
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Sealed Cranks
From: chumphre@comp.vuw.ac.nz (Craig Andrew Humphrey)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 04:26:05 GMT
Organization: Victoria University of Wellington, New Zealand
Keywords: cranks bikes bicycles tech


------
Hi, I've been having trouble with the crank on my
Giant Iguana (1990).  THe welding holes in the frame
allow water to get into the frame and water and
powder rust end up in my crank.  The plastic casing
in the crank doesn't do a very good job of stopping
the rust or the water and so the grease (I seem to
repack it every weekend) gets thinned and full of
rust.

A friend of mine recomended a FAGG seald crank (made
in Germany), he can get them for about NZ$40, but
says they only last about 2.5 years of hard riding.

Does anyone have any experience with these or other
sealed hubs?

BTW  I'm 6'4" and the bike has a 23" frame with extra
long Sugino peddle cranks.  I've already bent one and
broken another, so that area of the bike comes under
a lot of stress.

Thanks, Craig Humphrey.


-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|Craig Humphrey.     chumphre@comp.vuw.ac.nz        | The above opinions in no  |
|                    HUMPHREY_C@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz  | way represent those of    |
|Victoria University Wellington,  New Zealand.      | any sane, normal person,  |
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: davis@ee.rochester.edu (Al Davis)
Subject: Re: top five innovations
Organization: Univ of Rochester, College of Engineering and Applied Science
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 03:21:25 GMT

I am amazed you all missed the most important innovation of all:

** Biopace **

It was on this innovation that Suntour, SR, Sugino, etc. publicly admitted
that Shimano is #1, by blindly copying it.
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: stigmata@athena.mit.edu (???)
Subject: creakondale
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 19:52:05 GMT

well, after getting a few replies to my previous post
in rec.bicycles regarding a creaking bottom bracket,
i thank the person who told me that it could be the
rear hub in the dropouts, and i am pretty sure that he
was correct because i don't recall the bike creaking
with my race wheels in it.  so, anybody with a creaking
frame has another possible culprit.

andy
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: rfriedel@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Ronald J Friedel)
Subject: Re: Frith's tandem update
Keywords: tandem
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 14:27:55 GMT

In article <1992Aug27.024211.6360@massey.ac.nz> F.Brown@massey.ac.nz (F.J. Brown) writes:
>Hi netters!
>
>Thanks for those who replied to my tandem questions (we just bought a new
>Burley Duet.   All is going well with the tandem, we're actually
>getting off the seat occasionally now, albeit still a little gingerly.
>
>Two questions:
>Why do you some people have the two sets of cranks off-synch (as mentioned 
>in an earlier posting)?   Surely you need them in synch as part of the
>process of convergently-evolving pedalling technique?
>
>Have you ever had trouble with a soft knocking-clunky sort of sound which
>appears to be coming from the front bottom bracket, especially under heavy
>load?   Freewheeling for a moment stops it, but it comes back again once
>the load gets hard.
>
>Any more tandem discussion also welcomed!
>
>Cheers,
>
>Frith

We also have a Duet and I have two possible solutions to your clunking sound.

The first is that your freewheel might be coming apart.  The outside bearing
race might be unscrewing.  It unscrews in a clockwise direction.  If you
have the appropriate pin spanner, a Park "red" in the US, it is easy to fix.
Otherwise you will need to use a hammer and a punch.  If that problem
reoccurs then you will need to carefully clean the threads and then Locktite
the freewheel together.

Our Duet is two years old and I had an initial problem with the chainwheels
on the transfer chain side of the bike (left side of the bike).  The
crank spider is set up for two chainwheels.  Only one is needed on the
left side of the tandem.  The chainwheel fixing bolts were just a touch too
long.  They couldn't be completely tightened and therefore some came loose
and we lost a few bolts on one of our first rides.  I replaced the bolts
and bought stainless steel, 3/8" lock washers to fit on the inside of the
spider and take up the slack.

Our cranks are 45 degrees out of phase.  My wife likes it better because
she says she can feel that she is giving more of an effort.  In phase, she
says it feels like she is just following along and not contributing.  We
tried to ride with cranks 90 dregrees out of phase and it didn't work for
us.  We unclip at stoplights and it was too much a problem in restarting.
I also was concerned about not knowing just where the rear pedal was when
going through a fast corner, but that is something you can get used to with
time and practice.  My pedal "leads" her pedal.  We start with our left feet
clipped in.  My downward pedal stroke starts at about 8 o'clock and she
pushes through a normal stroke.  She "bounces" me up onto the bike seat and
I then normally clip in.  It works for us with no panic.  Others will say 
this is all wrong.  Take all advice with a grain of salt.

Ron Friedel

-- 
Ron Friedel
GeoSciences  UW-Milwaukee
rfriedel@csd4.csd.uwm.edu

Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: tlt38517@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Terry Thiel)
Subject: Re: Anybody tried the new Avocet titanium-railed saddles?
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 18:27:52 GMT

kim39@scws8.harvard.edu (John Kim) writes:
>	After slumming aroudn the local shop yesterday and seeing
>one of these saddles, I was wondering.  the Ads say they have 
>a titaniu "ShortRail" and gel pads, and show two models (40 and 50)
>while describing three models (racing, men's womens', or something like that).
>The one I saw was a 40 and didnt' seem to have any Gel.  From the
>pictures it seems the 50 has a Lycra cover; the 40 doesn't.
If possible i suggest you ride a Flolite saddle.  They have a regular "turbo"
style saddle as well as a light titanium railed saddle.  I found both to be
much more comfortable than the Avocet which uses gel because flolite flows
to your shape and stays there rather than merely compressing and decmpressing
as gel does (I know some of the engineers will get me for that!).  I might
add that I switched to a flolite saddle after years of riding nothing but
the Turbo and swearing that I would never ride gel or flolite because of
its weight.  Silly me.  The flolite is great and significantly increases
comfort over a long ride.
-Terry
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
From: engstrom@src.honeywell.com (Eric Engstrom)
Subject: Re: creakondale
Originator: engstrom@moriarty.src.honeywell.com
Organization: Honeywell Systems & Research Center, Minneapolis, MN
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 22:38:43 GMT


In article <1992Aug26.195205.18467@athena.mit.edu> stigmata@athena.mit.edu (???) writes:

> well, after getting a few replies to my previous post in rec.bicycles
> regarding a creaking bottom bracket, i thank the person who told me that it
> could be the rear hub in the dropouts, and i am pretty sure that he was
> correct because i don't recall the bike creaking with my race wheels in it.
> so, anybody with a creaking frame has another possible culprit.

I don't mean to be a doubting Thomas, but, well, I doubt it.  I've seen a lot
of people with this problem;  Sound comes directly from the crank-set and/or
bottom-bracket, generally louder when you put more pressure on the cranks.

The problem has always been (in my experience) a lack of proper maintenence
of cotterless cranks.  This is especially true of bikes that are relatively 
new (somewhere between the 150 and 750 mile mark).  The problem is that
people, owners or shop mechanics, often forget, esp. on new bikes, to tighten
the crank-arms to the axle every so-often. 

My rule of thumb is after every 50-75 miles on newer bikes (< 750 miles), and
then w/ regular maintenence after that, you should tighten them down.  Some
people also recommend actually loosening the bolt first, then tightening it
back again.  I'm unsure of the value in this.

If this is not done, either the "corners" of the axle or the square hole in
the crank-arm will become rounded.  If either becomes too rounded, the only
fix is replacement. 

So, tighten them now, or loosen your wallet later ;-)

Eric -- As always, your mileage may vary (pun intended)
+------------
Eric Engstrom, Honeywell Systems & Research Center, Mpls, MN, USA
engstrom@src.honeywell.com  -or-  NeXTMail: eric%basilisk@src.honeywell.com
     < I eat from the four food groups: Barley, Hops, Yeast, Water. >