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Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 13:36:00 EDT
From:         ALICE LOO <LOOT@SNYSYRV1.BITNET>
Subject:      Should women cover their heads?

Hi all,

        Last Sunday, the speaker at my church preached on a
rather controversial topic -- that women should cover their
heads during worship. His sermon was based on 1 Corinthians
11:3-16. My pastor apparently believes in this practice, and
a good proportion of women in my church do cover their heads
with scarfs, etc. But personally, I'm not convicted to do so.
How do you interpret this passage? Is covering of heads practised
in your church? I would very much like to hear your sharing
on this subject.

        For those of you who don't have a bible handy, here's
the passage:

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ;
and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth
his head. But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head
uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she
were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn:
but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be
covered. For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as
he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the
man. For the man is not of the woman, but the woman of the man. Neither
was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. For this
cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.
Nevertheless, neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman
without the man, in the Lord. For as the woman is of the man ,

even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God. Judge in
yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray to God uncovered. Dothe not
even nature itself teach you, that is a man have long hair, it is a
shame unto him? But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her:
for her hair is given her for a covering. But if any man seem to be
contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.
                                1Corinthians 11:3-16 (KJV)

Alice
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Date:         Thu, 16 Apr 1992 15:24:00 EDT
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From:         JHART@UMASSD.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Heterosexual risk

Hi Brenda;
        One comment I might make.  Many of the people in Africa
contract HIV by injection.  As many as 100 people may be receive
injections wihtout cleaning the needles in between.  If the first
person in line has HIV, how many may become infected before the
needle cleans itself from use?  This was a program I saw on TV
some time back, but for the life of me I can't remember what the
name of the program was.  Perhaps someone on Christia saw this
show and could post the name.

John Hart
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 21:48:00 EDT
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From:         JHART@UMASSD.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Request for Hymn Lyrics

Jonathan;
        I saw that last verse on the post by Kerry.  My music
didn't include it, but I like it.  Thanks for the feedback.

                                John Hart
From: spk@aber.ac.uk (Stephen Kingston)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Merit (WAS Our inheritance)
Date: 13 Apr 92 16:22:11 GMT
Reply-To: spk@aber.ac.uk (Stephen Kingston)
Organization: Computer Science Dept., University College of Wales, Aberystwyth.

In article <CHRISTIA%92041303022503@ASUACAD.BITNET> MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET (Marty Helgesen) writes:
> 
>         Stephen,
> 
>         I disagree with large parts of what you have been posting lately,
Only lateley??? :) *8-)

Thanks for the info.

Stephen.



-- 
Gweleis i rac neb nym gweles pop annwyl. ef diwyl yneges. Gweleis i pasc.
(I saw the one above all men,  he saw me;  he, the beloved of his people,
who fulfills his mission. I saw Easter.) "Yspeil Taliesin" ---Taliesin---
spk@uk.ac.aber --- spk%uk.ac.aber@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk --- Stephen Kingston
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Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1992 15:28:29 EST
From:         carol nemec <YA67@FERRIS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Children/blessing

The Bible definitely says children are a blessing.  But I don't
remember where.  I think Proverbs and Psalms both have
references to it.

For 22 years I've been blessed and I wouldn't trade a dirty
diaper for all the gold in Fort Knox.  Sometimes I don't think
my job is a blessing, but, then I see those without a source of
income.  My home is not a mansion, but I am not homeless.  We
should thank the Lord for whatever we have.  In all things give
thanks.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
CAROL NEMEC                             +
YA67@FERRIS                           +++++
FERRIS STATE UNIVERSITY                 +
BIG RAPIDS, MI 49307                    +   PHILIPPIANS 4:13
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Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 05:15:16 EDT
From:         Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Problem pregnancies

     I have great sympathy for women whose pregnancies present prob-
lems to them, as does the right to life movement in general.  The
right to life movement does more than work to outlaw abortion.  Pro-
lifers provide many services to pregnant women with problems, they
provide help to women who have had abortions and now regret them,
etc.  They use their own time and money to do this.  Some pro-lifers
oppose some laws intended to help people, but some laws intended to
help people are poorly designed and may cause more problems than they
solve.

     The fact that a woman may have problems because of her pregnancy
does not justify abortion.  In Romans 3:8 St. Paul rejects the idea
of doing evil in the hope that good will come from it.

     The claim that if men could get pregnant abortion would be legal
is frequently made by pro-abortion feminists.  Sometimes it is given
an anti-Christian and specifically anti-Catholic twist by saying if
men could get pregnant abortion would be a sacrament.  (If that is
taken seriously, rather than as an expression of virulent hatred, it
means that the people who say it consider abortion a positive good,
since sacraments are good.  The Catholic definition of a sacrament is
"An outward sign instituted by Christ to give grace.)  The claim is
false.  At every pro-life march, rally, or meeting I've every attend-
ed, women seemed to outnumber men.  Women are leaders of many major
pro-life organizations.

     Helping women with problem pregnancies is good in itself and it
also serves to reduce the demand for abortion, but no matter how much
is done it would not eliminate the demand.  It would not eliminate
sex-selection abortions which pre-natal testing now make possible.
Most of the victims of sex-selection abortions are unborn baby girls
because their parents want boys.  This is probably part of the expla-
nation of a t shirt I've seen some women wear.  It has a large Venus-
mirror female symbol with a small female symbol inside it and the
words "Equal Rights for Unborn Women".  It would not eliminate abor-
tions like the one tennis player Billie Jean King had.  In an autobi-
ography she admitted she had had an abortion after becoming pregnant
by her husband, because she did not want to take time  off from her
tennis career.  Other female tennis professionals had taken time off
to have babies and returned to their careers but she did not want to
interrupt her career so she had an abortion.

Marty Helgesen
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Date:         Tue, 14 Apr 1992 05:20:22 EDT
From:         Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Catholics and the New Age

The book is Catholics and the New Age: how good people are being
drawn into Jungian psychology, the enneagram, and the Age of Aquari-
us, by Mitch Pacwa.  It is published by Servant Publications in Ann
Arbor and costs about $8.95.  Father Pacwa is an orthodox Jesuit
priest.

Last summer the Franciscan University of Steubenville held its De-
fending the Faith II conference: A Catholic Response to the New Age.
I have an album of 12 tapes from the conference.  One of the tapes is
"Overview of the New Age" by Fr. Mitch Pacwa.  I prefer books to
tapes for several reasons, including the fact that one gets more for
one's money, but anyone is interested in the tapes, which were sold
separately as well as in a set, can write to Franciscan University
Press, Franciscan University of Steubenville, 100 Franciscan Way,
Steubenville, OH 43952 or call 1 800 783-6357 to find out if they are
still available, request a catalog, etc.

Marty Helgesen
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Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 12:49:04 EDT
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Prayer Request

Since there are alot of new brothers and sisters on the list, I would like to
tell you that when you request prayer, there are alot of us that pray
even tho we do not post it.  Be assured is you are not told, there are still
members praying for you.
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Date:         Wed, 15 Apr 1992 13:27:37 EST
From:         John Ross <ROSSJB@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: to disable call waiting

<AHEM!>

As someone who had to put up with call waiting for 4 laborious years,
I can personally attest to the fact that good ole *70 and 1170 do not
work in all areas.  You can call the phone company, but you probably won't
get any answers.  "Sorry, sir, that is not available in your area."
"Can you tell me when it will be available?"  "I can't supply you with
that kind of information."  "Can you tell me who can?"  "No."

You gotta love ma bell and her little brats.

John

(Sorry, they're not brats.  Just some of their employees are.)
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Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 10:59:47 PDT
From:         Doug Gould <5315P@NAVPGS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: File on Adam-god doctrine is now in the library

I'd like to announce the availability of a file I prepared on the same
topic.  This one's called

     ADAM-GOD REPLY

Madge has graciously supplied the following help for retrieving it:

-------------------Original message-----------------------------------
You may obtain a copy of files listed in our library by using
one of the following methods.  If you have interactive message
capability (TELL/SEND), you need only to type:

       TELL LISTSERV@ASUACAD GET filename filetype (for VM)
  or   SEND LISTSERV@ASUACAD GET filename filetype (for VMS/VAX)

then hit carriage return, and the message is sent.  Back will
come the file you requested (as a file, not as mail).

You can also send the same commands listed above via MAIL.
Indeed, some systems will only let you communicate with other
nodes using this format.  The syntax for the command you send
remains the same, and are sent to the server (listserv@asuacad)
in the same way you send mail to a person.  I do advise that
if you send your command by mail, leave the subject line blank
and your mail note unsigned.

The following is a sample of mail sent to LISTSERV@ASUACAD
requesting the file "ADAM-GOD REPLY.

     =======================================================
     Date:         Thu, 2 Apr 92 00:19:10 MST
     From:         Madge McBurney <ISPMOM@ASUACAD>
     To:           <LISTSERV@ASUACAD>

     GET ADAM-GOD REPLY
     =======================================================
-------------------End of quoted message------------------------------

Thanks, Madge, for facilitating this service.

Peace, and good will,

.+++++++++++++++++++++.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
| Doug Gould          | Jesus: "Come unto me...my yoke is easy, |
| 5315P@NAVPGS.Bitnet | and my burden is light." Matt. 11:28-30 |
`+++++++++++++++++++++^+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++'
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Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 14:21:51 EST
From:         carol nemec <YA67@FERRIS.BITNET>
Subject:      Thanks, Madge

Madge,
I appreciate the writing...
It says a lot.

I feel closer to my son over the past year, since he's been away from
home, than while he was at home.  He needs to do some maturing, and
the Navy will probably do it to him.  And now he has a child on the
way...unmarried, of course.  But he seems to be handling that in a
sensible manner, too.  I wish I had done some things differently,
especially when he was very young, but I basically do feel better
about him.  Now to get him in the right direction spiritually!

Thanks again,
God bless...Carol
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Date:         Mon, 6 Apr 1992 16:32:34 EDT
From:         Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Request for advice

On Sun, 5 Apr 1992 21:00:00 CST Darryl (The Other Brother) Johnson said:
<<Stuff omitted>>
>"Pro-abortionists are just big babies"
>Is this really what you are trying to say?
>This is my point: if my opponents on an issue indicate that they
>have no respect for me, and no understanding of my position (and
>I think anyone who BELIEVED that the above slogan was a good one
>for the pro-life movement would qualify), I have a very difficult
>time maintaining my respect for them.
>
>Some of Kerry's slogans were quite clever.  But the above one
>caught my eye immediately as being offensive without being
>instructive, and the RU486 one doesn't deal with the issue of
>abortion, but with the issue of contraception.  While many
>pro-life supporters are also against contraception, not ALL of
>them are.

Darryl,  The slogan may have caught your eye, but not very well,
because you misquoted it, and did so in such a way as to destroy the
point of the slogan.  She did not write, "Pro-abortionists are just
big babies."  She wrote, "Only Big Babies Are Pro-Choice."  The point
of the play on words is that Little Babies are the ones killed by
abortion so they do not support it.

RU486 is not a contraceptive.  It is an early abortifacient. (The
slogan RU486--or RU 4 LIFE is clever, but might be too obscure
for many slogan purposes.)

Marty Helgesen
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Date:         Mon, 13 Apr 1992 19:56:20 EDT
From:         Andrew Brennan <BRENNAAA@DUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Parable in Matt.

      Ok, here's another question ...

      I was reading through Matthew (start at the beginning and go
   to the end ... :^) and have recently reached the parable of the
   wicked husbandmen.  (Matt. 21:33-41)

      I can interpret/understand most of the symbols ... the owner
   is God, the son is Jesus, slaves are the prophets, etc.   But,
   in v. 38 - the husbandmen say that they will kill the son and
   take his inheritance ...  What is the inheritance?

      I have seen the owner's journey to a far off land with the
   land being heaven.  And, the vineyard is Israel - and I am not
   entirely sure what the produce of the vineyard is ...

      Is the inheritance the produce of the vineyard?  the vineyard
   itself?  Heaven?  I would think it was the produce and continue
   to "rent the vineyard" but what is the produce to symbolize?

      I think I have come up with an equivalent question though.

      What was the real reason that the Pharisees had Jesus killed?

      I hit a reference (about Pilate) that said 'envy.'  What
   about Christ did they envy?  I can see that they had lost face,
   but ENVY?

      Querious andrew.  (brennaaa@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu)
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Date:         Thu, 9 Apr 1992 15:44:00 EDT
From:         Jeff Shirton <SHIRTON@MCMASTER.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Should women cover their heads?

Andrew writes, concerning 1 Cor. 11:2-16:

> It seems to me that the major issue is whether this teaching is
> relevant to today's Christians. It is my belief that it is. You
> see, although it might be argued that Paul is teaching that given
> the culture of the time, the head should be covered, it should
> be observed that he appeals to such things as 'because of the
> angels'. That still stands today, I suggest.

I believe that the major issue is whether or not the passage is literal,
and if it is symbolic, what is it symbolic of?

The first couple of verses tend to convey to me that the passage is
symbolic, since he redefines what "head" is for each individual.  I
believe the passage gives us this illustration:

                        head -->-->

     long hair   ->   woman   ->   man   ->   Christ   ->   God

                       <--<--  glory

Now, according to the passage, for each individual, their "head" is to
their right, and their "glory" is to their left.

When an individual concentrates on their own glory, it takes them directly
away from God, instead of towards God.  For instance, the glory of a woman
is her long hair (11:15), (or beauty).  The glory of a man is the woman on
her arm.  It would not surprise me if the church at Corinth had the same
problem as churches today, in that some people come just to show off their
new Easter dress, or their lovely bride, etc.

Since the glory of a woman is her long hair, when she covers it she is
free to look to her "head", which eventually leads to Christ, the proper
focus.  Now, the only question is whether the head covering was a legalistic
"commandment", or whether the warning to look to your head rather than your
glory is sufficient to stay focussed on Christ.

I tend to believe that a literally head covering isn't necessary, but Paul's
message still remains important.

In Christ,
.------------------------v----------------------------------------------------.
| Jeff Shirton           | "Now it is God that has...given us the Spirit as a |
| shirton@McMaster.CA    |  deposit, guaranteeing what is to come."  2Cor.5:5 |
`------------------------^----------------------------------------------------'
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Date:         Fri, 10 Apr 1992 08:32:58 CDT
From:         Roy Jacobsen <NU021927@NDSUVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Perfection (was: Re: Planets and matter)
              8 Apr 1992 17:43:00 EST from <BSC92SPA18@RCNVMS.RCN.MASS.EDU>

Jeff,
     Please correct me if I don't have this straight.  I'm
going to paraphrase what I've understood you to have said.

You have said:

  1) We are perfect; God made us perfect.

  2) We think we are imperfect because we cannot see our perfection.


Is that correct?

ttfn

Roy M. Jacobsen                | "Progress does not create
North Dakota State University  |            victims."
Voice: 701-237-8641            |              -Marty Strange
BITNET: NU021927@NDSUVM1       |
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Date:         Wed, 8 Apr 1992 01:45:36 EDT
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      for Wed 08 April 1992
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET, BSTUDY-L@UTARLVM1.BITNET,
              IVCF-L@UBVM.BITNET

WEDNESDAY BEFORE PALM SUNDAY

Almighty God our Heavenly Father, renew in us the gifts of thy
mercy; increase our faith, strengthen our hope, enlighten our
understanding, enlarge our charity, and make us ready to serve thee;
through Jesus Christ our Lord, who liveth and reigneth with thee and
the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever.
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Date:         Thu, 16 Apr 1992 09:45:00 EDT
From:         The List Minor <VCHAI@SMITH.BITNET>
Subject:      Darryl, RE:AIDS/condom

Darryl,
>I have read a few posts from people expressing dissatisfaction with
>the tone of the AIDS/condom postings, but NO messages, either public
>or private, saying "I'm glad this topic is being discussed".

  All right, Darryl, I _am_ glad this topic is being discussed.
  And after skimming over the posts on this subject, I think
  that among the many things you are trying to say is this:
  *Let people make INFORMED decisions* about how they want to
  practice "safe sex."  Just because people can be infected with
  AIDS 1 in 500 times when they do use condoms doesn't mean that
  they should stop using it.  Of course, there's another option--
  just avoid having sex altogether.  BUT you feel that that is not
  a realistic option because people will often choose having sex
  over chastity.  So, because of this, we need to work with whatever
  resources we do have (ie. condoms), and be able to _relate_ this
  to the general public (ie. that chastity is not a terribly good idea)
  so that we can be as effective as possible in preventing the spread
  of AIDS.  Well, that's the gist of it (to me, anyways).  I'm sure
  that if I have misrepresented whatever you have tried to say, you'll
  let me know.  :-)

>I AM a little surprised when people are startled when I hold a
>liberal position on something.

  I must confess, yes, I _am_ startled, but then I am also glad
  because it makes me examine my own beliefs and either: throw
  them out of the window because they are not valid, or strengthen
  the foundation on which I based those beliefs.

>One final note: After May 15th, I will no longer have access to
>the Net.  I will be moving back to Michigan.  So one way or another,
>my liberal views will cease to irritate people after that date.

  Drat!!  What would we do without someone like you to irritate
  our self-satisfied complacent beliefs??  (I don't mean that _all_
  of our beliefs are easily arrived at, just maybe some.)


  That's all folks!  My two ringgit's worth,
  Vicky