From: jchristian@desire.wright.edu
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: stranglehold
Date: 19 Dec 92 16:48:30 EST
Organization:  Wright State University 

In article <4412@unisql.UUCP>, wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie) writes:
> In article <1992Dec18.150142.6264@desire.wright.edu> jchristian@desire.wright.edu writes:
>> [ description deleted ]
> 
> 	Sorry, I just can't quite picture why dropping your chin and pulling
> his arms wouldn't destroy the technique...  I guess I just don't get it.
> 
> 	(By the way, this is *not* the attack we were discussing: we were 
> talking about the one were you squeeze the neck with your hands.  I can
> make bare hand chokes work from this grip, too, by attacking the arteries
> with the sides of my hands or the knuckles)

Sorry.  I included this because the hands ARE wrapped around the neck and
squeezing; it's just that the thumbs are doing a bit of extra duty.

> 
>>As often as I've this particular choke done to me, the only thing I've found
>>that is halfway reliable is turning your head and dropping your chin.  But if
> 
> 	I think that's your mistake.  Try forcing your chin *straight* *down*
> into your chest 

Tried that already.  Positioning of the hands beneath your chin doesn't allow
for alleviation of pressure on trachea.  You have to turn your head somewhat in
order to change the angle of attack on your trachea.  Just my experience. 
Straight chin drop works fine in many cases, but not this one.


> and breaking his grip by pulling your elbows in to your sides,
> reaching up and dropping your elbows down.  The idea is to use your
> lats and trapezius against his arm muscles.  (That's why you need to keep
> your elbows in tight and drop them straight down)  You only need to create a 
> fraction of an inch of room.
> 								W.rat
> 
> 

There are as many counters to a choke as there are ways to move your body. 
But again, the problems I have with this choke (done properly) are:

	(1)  The initial motion is shoving you off balance,
	and the your first reaction is to try to regain that
	equilibrium.  This is not an oops-I-slipped off
	balance, this is oh-damn-I'm-about-to-fall-on-my-ass
	variety.  My brain has yet to ignore the fact that my
	body is falling out of control and that something has
	to be done to regain that equilibrium.  In that sort
	of situation, my first instinct is to roll or otherwise
	hit the ground so that I can regain control.  But I am
	unable to do this because the attacker is controlling me
	via my neck, and it is the attacker's control that holds
	me up.

	(2)  The reduction of time is very severe.  You can
	pretty much count on not reacting in the proper place
	(focusing on balance rather than choke) initially, which
	cuts down on your response time even more.  I give it
	about one second between the time the attacker's hands
	wrap around your neck and your falling backward until
	the time your trachea is being mangled and your responses
	are going to look just plain silly.  Substract from your
	one second the time you spend realizing that you're falling
	out of control, and you don't have time to do nice, neat
	things that would work under normal choke conditions.

When I first started training, my tolerance for chokes was practially nil.  Now
there are very few chokes that worry me; this happens to be one.  Actually,
this choke is easier to deal with in the summer because you can reach out and
pinch the tender skin covering the trapezius and twist, a tactic that works
great in the sleeveless summer but doesn't work well on arms bundled in winter
clothing.  The only CONSISTENT thing I've found that works is dropping your
chin and turning your head, which buys you enough time to try some of the stuff
you're talking about.

Jeff