HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Montgomery J. Moose)
Subject: Re: What is purpose of this group?
Keywords: charter, purpose
Organization: National Association for the Disorganized
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 17:03:26 GMT

  This article serves as an example of both the benefits and pitfalls of
talking about SCA-specific heraldic issues.  This letter is addressed to
heralds in the Society for Creative Anachronism--a minority group on the net.
Much of it will not make sense to the many non-SCA heralds on the newsgroup.
(What are rules VII and VIII?  What are the "Laurel Kingdoms?")  The danger of
posting messages to SCA heralds is that you are posting in jargon that is 
foreign to majority of people on this newgroup.

In article <7384@ds5000.DAC.Northeastern.edu> bnostran@ds5000.DAC.Northeastern.edu (Barbara Nostrand) writes:

>There are many loud voices amoung the SCA heralds who insist that this
>news group is not the place to discuss SCA heraldry.  In response to
>this claim, I wish to pose several arguements.

[arguments deleted]

>what would remain would be discussions of period style qua style based
>hopefully on research and discussions of conflict.  And how is it
>inappropriate to discuss these in this group?  

  It is not, and I never meant to suggest that questions of research should not
be addressed here.  (In fact, I hoped that they would be addressed here.)
  In my opinion, there are issues brought up in SCA heraldry that are
appropriate for discussion here.  Conversations about medieval heraldry, how it
was done, who used it, and such are certainly appropriate.  However,
discussions that are limited to the SCA (as opposed to those limited to
medieval heraldry) do not belong here.

Alan Terlep				        "Please don't shoot us--
Oakland University, Rochester, MI	         we're trying to help."
atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu		     --Real public service announcement
Rushing in where angels fear to tread.		    for the Serbian Red Cross
	



Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes)
Subject: Re: What is purpose of this group?
Keywords: charter, purpose
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 18:39:04 GMT

>From what I have seen this is more of a general discussion group. Am I right?
>
>Renate Johanna Wilhelmina Warnecke
>Per bend sinister, sable and gules on a bend sinister Or, three garb sable.
>
I believe that the people who originally wanted the NG were largely SCA
folk, but since it is a public forum, I guess anything goes. Personally
I welcome non-SCA queries. If most of the regular posters are SCA
members and most of the transient posters are non-SCA members this a)
gives the heralds a workout answering questions that they might not get
in the SCA and b) creates goodwill. I see nothing wrong with purely SCA
related postings, though. If a message doesn't interest a person, that's
what kill files are for.
   I do see the need for a FAQ posting though. It would cover 

   a) Basic Heraldic Books
   b) I saw an ad/shop/person selling "my family's crest". Is this a
sham?
   c) How do I find out if my family's armigerous.
   d) How do I register a device (SCA and non-SCA heraldic
jurisdictions)
   e) How do I go about doing geneological research (g alt.geneology)

   etc.

I AM NOT OFFERING TO PRODUCE A FAQ FILE, I AM NOT A SKILLED ENOUGH USER.
 But I am offering my suggestions for what I think is important in an
FAQ file.

   In the meantime I'll use my mundane moniker (legal name = vs. SCA
ame) and my SCA badge (fieldless, a comet argent).

Have Fun,

  Tom
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: vnend@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (D. W. James)
Subject: Re: Concepts of family and state heraldry
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 21:35:45 GMT

In article <18qij3INNesd@corax.udac.uu.se> andersa@Riga.DoCS.UU.SE (Anders Andersson) writes:
)In article <1992Sep11.013513.4156@vela.acs.oakland.edu>, atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Montgomery J. Moose) writes:
)Just as family heraldry is related to genealogy, state heraldry is
)related to political history and royal genealogy (when applicable).
)While both disciplines share a number of features, they also have
)distinct differences.  State heraldry also ties in to the discipline
)of designing national flags (I know this has some fancy term, but I
)have forgotten it).

	Vexillology: the study of flags. (From the Latin vexillum, flag,
a fairly recent coinage, the OED only dates it back to 1959.)

)When travelling through the Baltic Soviet republics in the summer
)of 1989, my best souvenir was a pair of posters sold (for a few
)roubles, which meant they weren't primarily intended for western
)tourists) next to the Liberty monument in central Riga, Latvia.
)The posters showed the national coat of arms of the independent
)state of Latvia, plus the municipal coats of arms of several
)Latvian towns.  None of them carried the heraldic attributes of
)the Soviet government, of course.

	Drool.  That's the kind of thing I keep and eye out for, and
seldom find.  (Then again, I don't get to travel in the Baltics either...)
 
)Are there other readers here who are also interested in state
)heraldry?  Is it considered a peripheral issue in comparison to
)family heraldry?  Do readers here feel that family and state
)heraldry are arts and disciplines intimatelty knit together, or
)that they are different subjects with a trivial common framework?
)Do you think I'm abusing some terminology in this posting?

	I'm interested.  I occationally play around with making an
ordinary (listing by charges) of national flags and armory (what I
can find.)  There are some lovely arms out there and some truely
aweful ones (especially in the old Soviet-bloc and friends) but mostly
the latter because I'm trying to extend heraldic blazon to describe things
that aren't really heraldic.  As an exercise in futility, it's a wonderful
learning experience.

)Do people collect digitally stored images of heraldic art?

	I have a small collection heraldic artwork from SCA sources, that's
about all I've seen.  There was someone else working on that kind of thing
a while back, but I haven't heard from him in a while.

Vnend
-- 
Vnend, Lottery winner #316                 Ignorance is the mother of adventure.  
vnend@princeton.edu, vnend@pucc.bitnet, or {backbone}!princeton!nudity!vnend        
        Anonymous posting service (NO FLAMES!):vnend@ms.uky.edu                          
              "If you run a news system you can be a petty tyrant."
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Misc.
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 19:16:40 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Kay Schlumpf writes:

> Now, there's the Basels (I believe) which each have one horn.

Those charges represent the top of a bishop's crook.

===========================================================================
Josh Mittleman (mittle@watson.ibm.com)
J2-C28 T.J. Watson Research Center, PO Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Canadian heraldry (was Re: Last Names and Heraldry)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 17:12:12 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

> People wishing the right to bare arms in Canada must apply to the Chief
> Herald of Canada.  
                              ^^^^^^^^^
Boy, I knew that Canadians were a bunch of prudes, but this is ridiculous! :)

> It is a vice-regal position and as far as I know it is linked closely
> with the college in London.  I also wouldn't be surprised if other
> commonwealth countries had chief heralds. 

Seriously, either your information is out of date, or you are using
aterminology that I don't understand: The Canadian College of Arms became
independent from the British College about three years ago, and is now
headed by an officer titled Canada Herald. 

===========================================================================
Josh Mittleman (mittle@watson.ibm.com)
J2-C28 T.J. Watson Research Center, PO Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
From: gadosy1@vax2.concordia.ca (ME, WHO ELSE?)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: Last Names and Heraldry (was Re: Computerized Family Crests)
Date: 15 Sep 92 13:45:00 GMT
Organization: Concordia University
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Sep10.084013.21483@odin.diku.dk>, klaus@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen) writes...
>The system described by BP exists only in England. In most of the world,
>the rule is: if you want a coat of arms, draw one. While there are rules
>(only certain colors allowed, etc) there is NO institution to enforce
>them.

Not true.  People wishing the right to bare arms in Canada must apply to the
Chief Herald of Canada.  It is a vice-regal position and as far as I know it is 
linked closely with the college in London.  I also wouldn't be surprised if
other commonwealth countries had chief heralds.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|\/\/\/|
|      |  "I want to centrifuge a kitten!!" - Gadosy1@Vax2.Concordia.CA
|      |
| (o)(o)  "Kittens grow up to be fuzzy Satanic fur balls" - A Very Smart Person
C      _)
| '____|
|   /     "No bar too far, no beer too dear" - Timothy A. Gadosy, Esq.
|  |
|  |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: klaus@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: What is purpose of this group?
Keywords: charter, purpose
Date: 11 Sep 92 08:21:08 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen

vnend@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (D. W. James) writes:

...
>Since there seems to be some confusion:

>CHARTER: rec.heraldry will be a forum for the discussion of
> heraldry. Heraldry is the science of designing coats of arms for nobility,
> and has been practiced since the Middle Ages in all European countries.
> Heraldry has a number of different aspects, all of which can be discussed
> in the forum.  Each coat of arms is the hereditary symbol of a noble
> family,

You don't need to be noble to have heraldic arms.

Klaus O K
From: badger@wixer.cactus.org (Badger)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: swans on shields
Date: 13 Sep 92 23:31:44 GMT
Organization: Real/Time Communications

In article <7398@ds5000.DAC.Northeastern.edu> bnostran@ds5000.DAC.Northeastern.edu (Barbara Nostrand) writes:
>Noble Heralds!
>
>The practice of using a charge with a name similar to the surname of the
>bearer is called "canting."  Or, at least so I recall.
>
>					Your Humble Servant
>					Solveig Throndardottir
>					Totally Ignorant
>
	True! Canting Arms are a wonderful thing! Since the Pun is, as I'm
sure all here will agree =B), the single highest form of Humor, what could
be more pleasing to a Herald than a good visual pun?



-- 
| Kenneth W. Scott        | Lord Gunter von Wissenberg  | Azure, a badger's   |
| Badger                  | Collegium Turris Animarum   | head erased Or      | 
| (Meles meles)           | In the Barony of Bryn Gwlad | masked sable, within|
| badger@wixer.cactus.org | In the Kingdom of Ansteorra | an orle Or. (I hope)|
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: dusek@rtsg.mot.com (James Dusek)
Subject: Re: The right to bear arms...
Organization: Motorola Inc., Cellular Infrastructure Group
Distribution: rec.heraldry
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 14:16:45 GMT

danderso@nmsu.edu (David Anderson) writes:

>me.  I am not exactly sure about how those arms would be registered so
>that my next door neighbour does not decide to represent himself with

	You could copywrite it. Than on the bottom of your arms you 
would also have to add the copywrite symbol.

James
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: trifid@agora.rain.com (Roadster Racewerks)
Subject: Re: M[a]cDonald
Organization: Open Communications Forum
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 15:26:07 GMT



The MacDonald crests (not the same as the arms necessarily) that I've found
so far are: MacDonald (main branch) a crown with an armored hand resting across
it, grasping a fancy cross; MacD. of Sleat, same; MacD. of the Isles, same;
MacD. of Clanranald, a triple-towered castle with an armored arm issuing out
of the center tower, grasping a scimitar; MacDonnell (closely related) of
Glengarry, a raven, wings closed, perched on a blue rock; MacD'll. of Keppoch,
a *naked* hand, holding the same type cross, (no crown). This does not mean
that any others are not valid. You need to check with the Clan Association to
be sure...

Hope this helps. I've stayed away from the technical terms, as the original
questioner was not an expert...

The ship motif appears on several of the shields, but not the crests I found.

Suze
(SCAka Moreach)
trifid@agora.rain.com
From: ag1v+@andrew.cmu.edu (Andrea B. Gansley-Ortiz)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: Shreve/Sheriff arms
Date: 11 Sep 92 21:14:28 GMT
Organization: Engineering Design Research Center, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

rbv@cypress.com want to know what the following looks like
> >1) Azure on a fess engrailed between three griffins' heads erased
> >2) a fleur de lis of the first enclosed by two roses gules
  
genetic+@pitt.edu responds

> This is only one blazon; the "1" and "2" are there as a sort of punctuation
> to help you keep clear such facts as that the fleur-de-lis is on the fess.
> (In snooty circles, blazons are not punctuated, which can make it a bit of
> a trick to parse them successfully.)

You're correct that this is only one blazon. However, I've never heard
of 'punctuating' a blazon to make it easier to parce. 

There is no tincture given for the griffin's heads. Since griffins are
a mythical beast and not an animal, I wouldn't assume that there is any
default or proper tincture for the heads, but rather that it was accidently
deleted.

So you have a fess, which is vertical bar across a blue field. Neither
in this emblazon, does the fess have a color. The fess is engrailed which
means scalloped such that the curved side is inward to the fess and the
pointed side is towards the field. A friend of mine remembers this by
saying engrailed is impale, while invected is infected. (i.e. Invected is
puffy. 8-) )

O.K. So you have a blue field with this fess and three griffin's heads.
Two above the fess and one below it. And Dave's description of the heads
is accurate.

And finally,

=Now, on the fess, put a blue fleur-de-lis (French trefoil) between two red
=roses.

So Dave's description is correct. I just didn't see the inverted triangle
in my head before, so used a different description.

Dave also says:
> What color are the griffins' heads supposed to be?  For that matter, what
> color is the fess supposed to be?  Hint: it has to be either "argent" 
> (silver) or "or" (gold), since you're not allowed to put anything but a 
> metal on a blue (or red or green or any other nonmetal) field.

This is mostly correct. But It doesn't have to be 'or' or 'argent'. It
could be 'ermine' or 'erminois'. 

Ermine is argent (white/silver) with sable (black) ermine spots on it.
An ermine spot is a stylization of what people saw on ermine pelts. 
Erminois is or (yellow/gold) with sable ermine spots. 

Ermine and Erminois are called furs because of the origin of the tinctures.

Andrea Gansley-Ortiz
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Last Names and Heraldry (was Re: Computerized Family Crests)
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1992 16:01:50 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Francois R. Velde writes:

> At least in France, the coats of arms can be born by all male members:
> otherwise, you'd get tens of thousands of blazons within a few
> generations, and it would defeat the purpoose.

It is important to realize that France has _no_ legal heraldic authority,
as exists in England, Ireland, Spain, etc.  The bearing of armory in France
is, as far as I know, unregulated.  When France still had a monarchy, its
armorial system worked very much as in England: Each son bore a cadenced
version of his father's arms.  The purpose of armory, originally, was not
family identification, but individual identification.  It was therefore
very important that each individual bore different arms.

===========================================================================
Josh Mittleman (mittle@watson.ibm.com)
J2-C28 T.J. Watson Research Center, PO Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
From: urcat@mcl.ucsb.edu (Eilidh Swan)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: swans on shields
Date: 14 Sep 92 06:39:17 GMT

In <18ubsmINN12r@corax.udac.uu.se> andersa@Riga.DoCS.UU.SE (Anders Andersson) writes:

>In article <urcat.716195794@mcl>, urcat@mcl.ucsb.edu (Eilidh Swan) writes:
>> Just a quick question, anyone know if there is any meaning 
>> attached to the use of a swan on a shield? (of course, asking
>> here may get me an answer *long* before I find it in any of
>> my books! :) ....  How early were swans used (if at all)?

>This may not be entirely to the point of your question, but I
>think it's relevant anyway: In case you wonder, it's not unusual
>to pick a charge (assuming this is correct English terminology for
>a figurative image employed on a shield) that has only the name
>in common with the bearer.  Now, the examples I have at hand are
>all territorial, but this principle has been employed for family
>crests as well, especially earlier ones.

[deleting cited material]

>Is this municipal information relevant to your choice of family
>crest?  You tell me.  The surname Svan (or variants thereof) is
>fairly common in Sweden, and it wouldn't surprise me if one of
>them has picked a crest showing a swan, for no other reason than
>the name.

Learn something new every day!  :)
I had no idea Swan (Svan, etc.) was of Swedish origin.  My
paternal grandma's maiden name was Swan, of English descent.
She had no middle name, so took her maiden name as such upon
marrying.  She died this summer, and being her eldest grandchild,
I wanted to take her name Swan for my computer on-line alias.
(note the .sig with my "legal" and "mundane" name....*smile*)

My question was mainly to the SCA heralds: i.e. what motives
someone to choose a charge? Some seems to offer easily understood
significance, especially from mundane/legal heraldry (forgive
my ignorance of the common terms for descriptions!)  What advice
to you provide to SCA folk designing their arms?  So in asking
about swans, I was wondering if there were any associations
(or conotations) one could draw from swans (i.e. beaver=industrious,
bear=ferocious, etc., along with some of the discussions floating
around on the Rialto right now about pagan or Christian symbols
being allowed/disallowed on SCA arms).

Thanks for all the comments so far!


>Anders Andersson, Dept. of Computer Systems, Uppsala University

Eilidh Swan  (formerly known in Caid as Kyrie MacLochlan)
*********************************************************************
Cat McGlothlin  urcat@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu  'urcat'='you-are-cat'   "Oh!"

  >>Please Vote in November!!!  Vote out State of CA Incumbents!!<<
   >>>Let State Employees receive paychecks instead of IOU's!!!<<<
From: klaus@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: Possible FAQ: Tinctures
Date: 15 Sep 92 13:09:19 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen

mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:

>Orange is usually considered a stain in English heraldic texts and blazoned
>"tenne", but it is found in heraldry in many countries, as are the other
>so-called stains.  "Tenne'" is used to blazon both orange and tan, btw.

>Tuomas wrote:

>> Unlike all other tinctures, stains are never chosen by the designer or the
>> bearer of the arms. They are added to the arms as a sign of humiliation
>> or punishment for an ignoble deed.

I have a heraldic dictionary, which lists tenne and sanguine as colours. It
says that they are rare, because these tinctures were used in abatements. I
do not remember the auther or title, but the author is a colonel.

>Tuomas also wrote:

>> There is one well known rule according to the tinctures:

>> - and a metal may not be placed next to a metal or colour next to a colour 

This is indeed the rule as used in Danish heraldry, that is the distinction
described below is not made

>The third rule you quote is usually stated as the Rule of Tinctures: Do
>not place color on color or metal or metal.  A distinction is made in
>heraldry between placing a charge _on_ a field, and placing two tinctures
>_next to_ one another.  For example, it is perfectly acceptable to divide a
>field in two colors, "Per bend sable and gules", but the rule does not
>allow a color to be placed on another color, as "Gules, a lion rampant
>sable."

It is of course necessary to make an exception when 3 tinctures touch.
(Furs are very Brittish. There are exceptions of course)

Klaus O K
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen)
Subject: Re: swans on shields
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 06:32:02 GMT

In article <18ubsmINN12r@corax.udac.uu.se> andersa@Riga.DoCS.UU.SE (Anders Andersson) writes:
>In article <urcat.716195794@mcl>, urcat@mcl.ucsb.edu (Eilidh Swan) writes:
>> Just a quick question, anyone know if there is any meaning 
>> attached to the use of a swan on a shield? (of course, asking
>> here may get me an answer *long* before I find it in any of
>> my books! :) ....  How early were swans used (if at all)?
>
>The Swedish municipality of Lindesberg: In a silver field, a green
>linden tree, growing from a green mountain with three hills.
>
>The name "Lindesberg" literally means 'mountain of linden'.
>
>There is a swan in the municipal arms of Ovanaker, Sweden, but the
>verbal blazonery is so complicated that I dare not try to translate
>it without consulting an English reference work on heraldic
>terminology...  There is no linguistic connection between the name
>and the animal here, but the swan is just an old symbol for the
>parish of Ovanaker.  The arms of Gulbene, Latvia, is simply a
>silver swan in a black field.

A German noble family of von Schwagenau: Gules, a swan passant sinister Argent
beaked and membered Or

The Finnish city of Salo: Azure, a swan naiant Argent on a fess wawy Or
(a swimming white swan on a golden river, blue field), in chief a fleur de lis
Argent, in the first canton the arms of noble family of Armfelt (Or, a plate-
armored arm couched, holding a pistol Argent, emerging from shoulder Azure).
  ++ Tuomas Viljanen                     ++ For a battle like Crecy, you do  ++
  ++ Lahderanta 20 A 19                  ++ not need a military genius like  ++
  ++ SF-02720 Espoo 72 FINLAND           ++ Edward III. All you need is an   ++
  ++ 358-0-592175 or c34657b@saha.hut.fi ++ idiot like the Duke of Alencon.  ++
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: <tonyp@dryheat.COM> (good, Conan - good!)
Subject: Re: M(a)cDonald family crest
Originator: tonyp@dryheat.convex.com
Reply-To: tonyp@convex.COM 
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1992 16:38:09 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In article <shralp.716055440@camelot> shralp@camelot.bradley.edu (Jamie McDonald) writes:
}
}I've seen several different crests for the MacDonald clan in Scottland
}
}Anyone know of the true MacDonald crest?
}
It is two "U"s, upsidedown, partially juxtaposed.

Commonly referred to as "The Golden Arches"...

-- 
Tony J. Podrasky |  What's this thing?
 San Diego , Ca   |  It's called a MODEM.
tonyp@convex.com |  And what's this button for? 
 NNNN NNNN ZCZC   |  Whatever you do, don't touc{{{7bh6xx!{@%%hxbd&$#)$% NO CARRIER
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: trifid@agora.rain.com (Roadster Racewerks)
Subject: Re: US Army distinctive insignia
Organization: Open Communications Forum
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 14:56:36 GMT



Could you give us the names of some references on this type of military art?

(And here I always thought a "DI" was a Drill Instructor! :-)

Suze
trifid@agora.rain.com