HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Mark.Perew@p201.f208.n103.z1.fidonet.org
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Addiction is not a disease.
X-Sender: newtout 0.02 Nov 17 1992
Date: 28 Dec 92  15:59:28

In a message of <Dec 27 17:01>, dlittlej@csulb.edu (Darren Littlejohn) writes:

 >It says that more people aren't helped than are by 12 step programs.
 >That is hard to say. It also says that you can do it alone, unless
 >you've got a LOT of pain. Gee, that means everybody I've met at a meeting.

This has been hashed out here before.  It all depends on what definitions you 
use.  There are many many people who come to 12 step meetings and never come
back.  Far more than come and stay and work the suggested program of recovery.
If you define those who aren't helped as those who come and don't get/stay
sober then the statement is correct.   However, this does not mean that Twelve 
Step programs don't work.  It means that they don't work for everyone.  Some
people aren't so bad off as to need the steps, others aren't bad off enough to 
want them.

--- Mark Perew  Mark.Perew@ofa123.fidonet.org
--- Mark's Information Repository and Funtime Emporium (1:103/208.201)


--- Squish v1.00
From: bruce.baer@factory.com (Bruce Baer) 
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Seeking help on "The God
Date: 24 Dec 92 01:19:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Invention Factory's BBS - New York City, NY - 212-274-8298v.32bis
Reply-To: bruce.baer@factory.com (Bruce Baer) 

BC>Path: uupsi!psinntp!uunet!stanford.edu!apple!bc
BC>From: bc@Apple.COM (bill coderre)
BC>Newsgroups: alt.recovery
BC>Subject: Seeking help on "The God Thing"
BC>Message-ID: <75655@apple.apple.COM>
BC>Date: 16 Dec 92 01:29:07 GMT
BC>We've had a lot of bickering lately about praying, God, recovery, and
BC>AA official opinion.
BC>Not that I'd like to put a stop to that, but I am interested in
BC>getting some help "finding" my higher power. Anybody got a good
BC>reference?
BC>I have tried to re-work the concepts and ideas into a Zen
BC>Buddhist-like framework, but it's hard to do while I'm busy
BC>recovering.

Bill,
    Talk about loaded questions. I suggest you get ready for a
land-slide as you essentially set off a sonic boom in a falling
rock zone by asking for a refference.

    I have no refference for you but I do have a suggestion. Given
that you now appear open minded by your question I suggest that instead
of trying to come up with something new or rework something old that
you instead take this open mind and go back and re-examine where you
came from. I believe open-mindedness and objectivity will allow you
to see your old faith in a new light. You still might not wish to
persue this path of spiritual outlook but thats O.K.. It will give
you a point of refference from which you can plot your course.

    Its kinda like the building map theory. Most buildings have a
map on every floor near the elevator and stairs which have a spot
marked "you are here". Being a drunk is kinda like being in a
building for a long time with maps that have no "you are here" spot
on them. You just wander around guessing. Now, you are sober. The maps
will have the marked spots, go relearn the building. Then if you are not
happy with this building - move to another. You will at least now know
what you do not want. And, may have some idea of what you do want.
                                                           BAB
---
 . SLMR 2.1a . Disaster is the only thing I can depend on....
From: sherig@jett.EBay.Sun.COM (Sheri Gillette)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: remembering tim...
Date: 22 Dec 1992 01:45:39 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: sherig@jett.EBay.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: jett.ebay.sun.com


>>>does it ever stop hurting?


yes, when you start remembering that tim is NOT far away...

he is as close as your heart...


O8*)


Newsgroups: alt.recovery,alt.support
From: rons@soul.tv.tek.com (Ron Selberg)
Subject: Re: so far away - for Tim
Organization: Tektronix TV Products
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 20:15:19 GMT

Yes, it does stop hurting. When we let it. 
Be thankfull of the good memories.
Be thankfull for what you have.
Remember that Tim is in a better place, and that you will see him again.
Ron
From: hartman@informix.com (Robert Hartman)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: "We are not allied with any sect or denomination" - Really?
Date: 21 Dec 92 20:03:53 GMT
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.

In article <1992Dec15.170958.22521@Cadence.COM> jerpseth@sd.cadence.com (James Jerpseth) writes:
>Oh for the nievette of 6 months, to believe deep in my heart
>that I, and only I, know how the 12 steps should be re-wriiten.
>To be the only one qualified to re-write a program for millions
>of people in my own image and needs.
> ...

Hmmm.  Last I heard, the program was primarily _for_ newcomers, and
that what we oldtimers are there for is to remember why we came in the
first place.  When I was a newcomer, one of the things I most
appreciated was a chance to be heard out, and to have my perspective
acknowledged and validated--or at very least, respected.  If my views
had been pooh-poohed like this, I'd still be actively addicted.  Why?
Because I would have felt that my needs wouldn't get met in the
program--and if my needs in life aren't going to get met anyway, I
might as well do what I like.

Everyone's program is different.  Everyone's needs are different.  When
I first came into the program, one of the things I had to do to further
my recovery was to fire God.  I HAD TO FIRE GOD!  Why?  Because concept
of God that I acquired through a fundamentalist Christian sect was so
judgemental, so viscious, and so uncaring, that as long as I continued
any relationship with Him my recovery was doomed.  So I FIRED HIM!

Needless to say, regardless of all those other millions of people (and
I wonder how many of whom might also have similar trouble with the
Christian influence in the program), personally, I HAD TROUBLE WITH IT,
and for the record, after four years I STILL HAVE TROUBLE WITH IT.  And
in every meeting I've been to where the issue has come up, there's been
at least one other person besides myself who agrees with me.

To me, the most important thing to remember about the program is that
it isn't perfect.  It works well enough that it doesn't have to be
perfect.  If it's perfect for you, fine.  But please do me the kindness
of remembering that it isn't perfect for _me._  There are things about
it I don't like, that aren't good for me, but that I put up with for
the sake of the things that _are_ good for me.  On the whole it's a
win for me, but if I could change certain things, I would.

And so, as one of those millions who's had to put up with The Lord's
Prayer (just what I need in an HP, ... a "lord" ... no thanks!), please
remember that I am tolerating this sectarian intrusion into my program
for the sake of _your_ recovery.  I'd appreciate a little respect for
my position and those who feel as I do.  

At a minimum, please do me the kindness of never using that sort of
line on a newcomer again.

Thank you,

Robert Hartman
From: Mark.Perew@p201.f208.n103.z1.fidonet.org
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Addiction is not a disease.
X-Sender: newtout 0.05 Dec 30 1992
Date: 31 Dec 92  12:03:38

In a message of <Dec 30 06:47>, ebh@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Ed Horch) writes:

>It means that they don't work for everyone.  Some people aren't so bad 
>off as to need the steps, others aren't bad off enough to want them.

 >One of the things I love about this group is that you never have to wait
 >very long before someone makes a value judgment about the recoveries of
 >people they've never even met...

I suppose you can make a value judgement of my words and call it a value
judgement.  I'd call it observation of what I have seen during my stint in
Twelve Step recovery.  There are folks who can recover w/o the steps.  I make 
no ludicrous claims that you can't really recover unless you do it our way. 
There are also some folks out there who haven't hit bottom yet.  I got into
program and then went back out.  I hadn't had enough pain yet to realize that 
"out there" was not where I wanted to be.  Thank God I'm back here, now.

 >Will the dogma ever end?

If we got rid of the dogmas the dogpas would be very lonely.

--- Mark Perew  Mark.Perew@ofa123.fidonet.org
--- Mark's Information Repository and Funtime Emporium (1:103/208.201)


--- Squish v1.00
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Friday, 25 Dec 1992 20:00:24 CST
From: <U60703@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Looking for AA in Alexandria, LA

In article <lash.725301343@cwis>, lash@cwis.unomaha.edu (Kevin Lash) says:
>
>Anyone out there live in the Alexandria, LA area?  I'll be going there soon
>and will need to find some meetings.  I'm not looking forward to leaving my
>secure little world here so finding some meetings is a high priority.
>Thanks in advance.
wwww
Suggestion.....even though can't give you direct places/numbers to call....
Look in Phone book when you get there....i know AA and other groups are listed
in our books here.....also You can drop in the area hospitals/health centers/
clinics for a start...always a good place to get info on meetings and such....
counseling/therapy centers should have good info for you...

Good luck to you....leaving something secure can be scary, but not to extend
sometimes means not to grow....you sound like you'll be fine :)....

Carole
From: amigan@cup.portal.com (Mike - Medwid)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: A Week w/ the 'Rents
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 92 19:15:06 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world

I spent a week with my folks in Florida over the holiday.  We spoke openly
on a number of things including our relationships with each other and
money.  Dad's recently retired and is thinking of relocating to Florida
or elsewhere.  Money was this incredible secretive subject in our house.  
Money was often the only or primary form of communication.  It came to 
symbolize love, lack thereof or a number of other things.  I think that
was because normal every day feelings were not recognized/discussed.  Since
the only relating that went on was normally around money, money developed
this larger than life aura.  At it's extreme some relatives (one aunt in
particular) came to hoarding money, forging the grand parents signatures
on checks, stealing jewlry or other posessions.  I remember once when I 
was about 10 this aunt came to our house and demanded to see our safe/
strong box (my folks were away and she was baby-sitting).  She rifled
through all our personal documents, pass books etc..  I get the creeps
just thinking about it.  

It was such a breath of fresh air for Dad to discuss his financial picture
so openly, his pension, stock holdings etc..  The openness seemed to 
help in healing the relationship further.  At times in the past, I too
have felt covetiveness (word?) for the family wealth.  I'd hope to get
a good deal in the will..and basically not really care about the long
term or short term health of my relatives.  I just wanted the loot.  
I'm not too hard on myself for this.  As a kid I must have said to 
myself "shit, no love or relationships here..may as well go for the
bucks".  This love of material things over people/relationships I believe
is at the heart of what 12 groups call a "spiritual disease".  It feels
so good to have the relationships with my parents and two of my three
remaining grandparents.  No amount of money could replace them.    I am 
greatful to the recovery movement for the restoration of my family.
From: "dale smoak" <dale.smoak@channel1.com>
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: what!??!? i'm not fin
Date: 23 Dec 92 02:24:49 EST
Reply-To: "dale smoak" <dale.smoak@channel1.com>
Distribution: alt
Organization: Channel 1 Communications

In article <1glsj7INNshe@news.cerf.net> Juan Gascon writes:
    Subject: What!??!? I'm not finished?!

> What I'm getting at is the possibility, and I propose this to
>Cyber-alt.recovery space as an inquiry only, of dividing this newsgroup
>into the various fellowships that may at times by the nature of their
>existance need to be at odds.  What do you folks think of say:
>alt.recovery.aa - alt.recovery.na - alt.recovery.ca -alt.recovery.oa
>alt.recovery.sa, etc etc etc

I don't like the idea simply because a live fellowship offers the sort
of specific focus you're suggesting, and I like getting something
different in this newsgroup:  namely, the opportunity to identify with
people whose specific struggles are different from mine.

A newsgroup can't replace a live meeting but it can serve as an adjunct
to one.  I like the way this newsgroup works.

The longer I'm in recovery, the more I can identify with people who are
in fellowships I'm not.

I've only been reading this newsgroup for about five months, and I
believe the idea of splitting the group came up once since then.  I
suspect it comes up periodically--no doubt people who've read this
newsgroup longer than I have will say--but I suppose there's room for a
well-founded discussion of the issue.

From what I can gather of net protocol, such a discussion properly takes
place in news.groups.  Someone will correct me if I am wrong.

Dale
---
  DeLuxe 1.26b #12237  dale.smoak#channel1.com/76350.3662@compuserve.com
--
Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA

Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1992 14:34:34 EST
From: me <PJB113@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.recovery,alt.support
Subject: Re: so far away - for Tim
 <92359.195036U60703@uicvm.uic.edu> <BzvvnB.AH1@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>

teeeesting
Newsgroups: la.general
From: teddybur@netcom.com (John Sanger)
Subject: Re: Store for CD's: incredible selection
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Distribution: la
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 03:41:00 GMT

In article <1993Jan4.012218.29330@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov> fod@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov (Frank O'Donnell) writes:
>rob@xyzoom.info.com (Rob Lingelbach) writes:
>
>>I was killing some time before a movie at the new Sunset 5 theatres
>>yesterday when I stopped in the new "Megastore" operated by Virgin (of
>>Virgin Atlantic, Virgin records, et. al. fame) in the same complex, at
>>Crescent Heights and Sunset.
>>
>>I found 3 jazz CD's that I never knew existed by artists I've been
>>following for a few years.  The selection of obscure CD's in this
>>store appears to be excellent.  A huge jazz section, a good large folk
>>section, and a big international section. ...
>
>Has anyone into international music gotten a good feel
>for how Virgin's selection compares to that of, say,
>Tower or Rhino?  Or tried any special orders?  I often
>find myself in the position of looking for things that
>are released in, say, France that are a little tough to
>special-order at Tower or Rhino; because there's another
>big Virgin Megastore in Paris stocking primarily European
>releases, I thought this might somehow work to the benefit
>of the outlet here (which I haven't yet been able to
>visit).
>

I recently called Tower in SO and asked about getting a CD of Tahitian
Chior but they only had the cassette so I dropped into the new Virgin
shoppe and found that they had lots of them at what I expected to pay for
it, $14.99.  If it had been on discount it probably would have been $11.99.



Ciao!
	John S. :^)
	teddybur@netcom.com
__

Newsgroups: la.general
From: rob@xyzoom.info.com (Rob Lingelbach)
Subject: Re: Store for CD's: incredible selection
Reply-To: rob@xyzoom.info.com (Rob Lingelbach)
Organization: Altruistic Intentions, Hollywood CA
Distribution: la
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 22:33:08 GMT

In article <1993Jan3.202314.5018@netcom.com> strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight) writes:
>
>In my post just above I mention the HMV store near Carnegie Hall.
>Of course I meant just up the street from Lincoln Center. I guess
>I'm showing my age.

Maybe just showing your left-coastedness.

I was going to ask you where near Carnegie Hall, as I grew up across
the street from CH (205 W. 57th St.) and the rent would be pretty high
around there ;-).

--Rob

-- 
Rob Lingelbach KB6CUN | 2660 Hollyridge Dr LA CA 90068 213 464 6266 (voice) 
rob@xyzoom.info.com   | "I care not much for a man's religion whose dog or 
robl@netcom.com       |  cat are not the better for it."  --Abraham Lincoln
From: scw@cirrus.seas.ucla.edu (Stephen C Woods)
Newsgroups: la.general
Subject: South Pasadena (was Re: Century Freeway completion)
Keywords: Streets for People
Date: 23 Dec 92 00:26:47 GMT
Distribution: la
Organization: School of Engineering and Applied Sciences, UCLA

In article <BzC3u4.Ir8@leo.irv.icl.com> tim@leo.irv.icl.com (Tim Holdener) writes:
[...] landscaping     Iceplant
>Slower-paced lifestyle           David, et al aren't delayed 10 minutes
>
>Which would you prefer? 


Isin't this interesting, so that a few hundred people can live in nifty
old homes, (which could be relocated you know).  Tens of thousands of man
hours a year will be pissed away in traffic jams that should NOT be there.


    Up ladder Jack, I'm inboard.

  The fact that the anti-freeway folks miss is that the traffic is already
there, it must be delt with first, pious handwaving about 'well YOU shoud
ride the bus (3.5 hour commute for me) or the train, (let's see, $3.50
each way Industry <-> downtown 20 minute ride, a bit expensive but time is
OK, now how to get from Downtown to UCLA, Bus <two Hours and $2.00>, that's
2:20 and $5.50 each way, best case  ask me again when I only have to change
once (subway along Wilshire)).

   Finish the freeway system first (the Century Fwy will unclog the East LA
interchange, I-5 and ease congestion in the southbay as well.  The 710
extention [and for god's sake don't dump it onto the Pasadena (110) FWY,
that's already bad enough] will unload the 710/10 interchange, the 10-605
interchange, Valley Blvd (the 710 dumps out onto Valley, it takes up to 30
minutes under pathalogical conditions to travel the 1.25 miles from I10 to
Valley) and also open I-5 a bit.

    THEN finish off the subway system (subways have the wonderful advantage
of not getting jammed up by other traffic (the second major problem with
busses) and not jamming up other traffic (the first problem with
busses).
-- 
-----
Stephen C. Woods; UCLA SEASNET; 2567 BH;LA CA 90024; (310)-825-8614
UUCP: ...{ibmsupt,ncar!cepu}!ollie}!scw  Internet:scw@SEAS.UCLA.EDU
Newsgroups: la.general
From: strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight)
Subject: Re: 710 Freeway
Keywords: 710,Long Beach,Freeway
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Distribution: la
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 02:48:06 GMT


Brian Casey points out (I missed this) that a completed 710 might
carry truck traffic from the L.A. harbor to the central valley (via
the 710/210/5 at Sylmar). I'm sure that's right, and thus the 710
might become more congested, but this will balance out the load on
some other freeways--where does Brian think those trucks are driving now?

Besides, the trucks have to stay in the right lanes, so autos will still
gain benefit.

David


Newsgroups: la.general
From: salex@devvax.jpl.nasa.gov (Scott Alexander)
Subject: Re: Motor Oil!
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory (NASA)
Distribution: la
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 05:12:34 GMT

Call the CA recycling board at 800 553 2962 and they
will tell you who in your area is willing to take motor oil
for recycling.
--
Scott Alexander
salex@devvax.jpl.nasa.gov
Newsgroups: la.general
From: strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight)
Subject: Re: Store for CD's: incredible selection
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Distribution: la
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 20:23:14 GMT


In my post just above I mention the HMV store near Carnegie Hall.
Of course I meant just up the street from Lincoln Center. I guess
I'm showing my age.

-- 
David Sternlight
RIPEM Public Key on server  --  Consider it an envelope for your e-mail

Newsgroups: la.general
From: rob@xyzoom.info.com (Rob Lingelbach)
Subject: license plates
Organization: Altruistic Intentions, Hollywood CA
Distribution: la
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1992 23:46:07 GMT

Today's (Sunday) LA Times has an article on page 3 that covers the
emerging license plate issue for California: there will be at least 12
new designs for our license plates!  Seems the lawmakers are trying to
find new sources of revenue...of them all, the Yosemite design looks
like my favorite.  Some of the new ones will allow graphic "hearts"
"stars" and "hands"; to me, they look hokey --takes the subtelty out
of the message.

The article also mentioned that California law enforcement agencies
are not being consulted about the designs, and are generally against
them--difficulty in reading (how do you describe a heart
phonetically?).

-- 
Rob Lingelbach KB6CUN | 2660 Hollyridge Dr LA CA 90068 213 464 6266 (voice) 
rob@xyzoom.info.com   | "I care not much for a man's religion whose dog or 
robl@netcom.com       |  cat are not the better for it."  --Abraham Lincoln
From: peri@cco.caltech.edu (Michal Leah Peri)
Newsgroups: la.general
Subject: Re: Furniture Outlet Store?
Date: 4 Jan 1993 01:05:24 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

tylerh@cco.caltech.edu (Tyler R. Holcomb) writes:

>atrium!sysop@bodedo.UUCP writes:

>>Is there any furniture outlet stores in the LA area? Or a superstore?

>>Please post in this newsgroup for the benefit of others.

>for OFFICE furniture, which is typically well-built and surprisingly
>versatile, I recommend the clust of used office furniture store clostered
>about the 605/10 interchange, and RB furniture in particular.

Don't you mean ABE furniture?  I got a terriffic solid-oak executive
desk in good condition for about $200.  It's huge and it must weigh
tons -- took six of us to get it up the stairs!
-- 

                                                --  Michal
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course there's no reason!  
Newsgroups: la.general
From: bnc@portia.si.macsch.com (Brian Casey)
Subject: Re: 710 Freeway
Keywords: 710,Long Beach,Freeway
Organization: The MacNeal-Schwendler Corporation
Distribution: la
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 22:30:12 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.204838.16957@netcom.com> strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight) writes:
>
>I think Bryan Casey is mistaken in asserting that a completed 710 will
>do nothing to alleviate freeway congestion--simply move traffic off
>the streets.
>
>Many take the 605 or the 210 south, or even the 5 to avoid the
>surface traffic. If there were a straight shot on the 710,
>it would move a lot of traffic from those legs to the 710 between
>Pasadena and at least the 5 south of Downtown, as well as the 605 and
>210/52 (or whatever that thing the 210 connects to to get to the
>South Coast part of the 405). That would not be Pasadena traffic alone,
>but traffic from North of L.A. via the 210 south, traffic from the
>towns along the 210 such as La Canada/Flintridge, and maybe even
>traffic from Glendale, all of which would prefer the 710 leg to
>the 5, or to the 110, or to the 405 to the  much more congested
>605 and 210 routes south to the 5, or going through the East L.A.
>interchange.
>
>It would also save a lot of gasolene, because one goes east
>to get on the 605 or 210 south, and then has to go a good
>distance west on them to connect to the 5 or 405, but the
>710 will go pretty much straight south.
>
>David
>

I still disagree.  There will be redistribution of existing freeway
traffic, but it will not have a substantial impact on traffic
congestion on the 605, the 210, the 5, the 2, or the 10.  The 710
will have a hard enough time dealing with the current surface street
traffic and the expected on-slaught of commercial truck traffic that
will use the 710 and 210 as a primary route between the harbor and
the Central Valley.

Brian Casey
bnc@macsch.com
Newsgroups: la.general