HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: The Marching Morons (was Re: Cindy the Disco Queen)
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 22:19:18 GMT

In article <pete.725977837@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU> pete@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU (Peter Alexander Merel) writes:
>>It doesn't
>>matter that in this case it's a private group producing the sterility virus
>>and an unaffiliated country producing the cure--extorting the cure out of them
>>works regardless.
>No, it doesn't. If a poor country could get whatever it wanted this way then
>you'd have the Brazilians waving bombs in your face right now demanding that
>their foreign debt be written off. I guess I just don't see why you think that
>diplomacy works like this. Perhaps you could support your conjecture somehow?
>Reasoning? A precedent?

If foreign countries with debts to the US would use weapons to try to negate
their debt, there would be a lot of disadvantages to them.  These disadvantages
would outweigh the advantages of not having a debt.  But they would not
outweigh the disadvantages of complete eradication of the country in a few
generations, so weapons become advantageous in a way that they do not for
smaller goals such as reduction of debt.

>>For that matter, your proposal may encourage countries to take over the whole
>>world--a lot harder to have secret recombinant DNA factories in a world
>>dictatorship....
>I don't seem to be able to follow your argument here. Are you suggesting that
>a world without overpopulation problems is somehow more prone to dictatorship?

I'm suggesting that in a world where secret groups freely spread sterility
viruses to foreign countries, dictatorship suddenly becomes a lot more
advantageous.  Since such groups can act only without a world dictatorship,
the effect of such groups is to increase the stability of a dictatorship,
relative to democracy.

Even if the dictatorship does not take over the whole world, it still benefits
if it can take over enough of the world to 1) have enough captive scientists
to force to provide a cure, or 2) have enough captive scientists to force to
provide another sterility virus to use against the dictatorship's enemies.

The sterility virus has essentially the same effect, with respect to politics,
as a weapon which directly kills the victims instead.
--
"On the first day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Leftover Turkey!
On the second day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Turkey Casserole
    that she made from Leftover Turkey.
[days 3-4 deleted] ...  Flaming Turkey Wings! ...
   -- Pizza Hut commercial (and M*tlu/A*gic bait)

Ken Arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu, arromdee@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.science
From: pete@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU (Peter Alexander Merel)
Subject: Re: The Marching Morons (was Re: Cindy the Disco Queen)
Keywords: n
Organization: Sydney University Computing Service, Sydney, NSW, Australia
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 06:06:56 GMT

arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:
>In article <pete.725935174@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU> pete@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU (Peter Alexander Merel) writes:
>>Of course the sterilization process must be carried out on the q.t., because
>>any nation or group that openly performed it would find itself the target of no
>>end of persecution and vengeance. We can only speculate about the impact on
>>nations like India and religions like Catholicism of the discovery of global
>>infertility, but we may imagine that nations ruled by adherents of moron 
>>memes would find themselves incapable of building the technology required to 
>>globally reverse the sterilization. 

>The technology needed is a simple one.  Build bomb, hold bomb over head of
>smarter country, announce that the sterility is an act of war (which indeed it
>is) and you'll drop the bomb unless they both reverse it and give you half
>their gross national product in compensation.  (And plenty of memes which
>otherwise don't encourage science encourage violence.)

Hmm. Okay let's dump the education criterion. An unknown group produce
a strain of influenza that sterilizes the human race. First world
nations race to find a cure. After some time they find one ...

Such a cure is a commodity, and the folk who come up with it will be more
than happy to sell it. But overpopulated countries will only be able to afford
so much, and then if they do scrape together the funds to fertilize themselves
again, well, that unknown group releases another sterilizing flu strain ...

Continue for fifty years. Because we dumped the education criterion our
global population is no more enlightened, but they are _much_ less numerous.
They are so few, and so resource rich, that there is no problem educating them
to whatever level they are capable of.

-- 
Internet: pete@extro.su.oz.au             UUCP: {uunet,mcvax}!munnari!extro!pete
                       I am a big pond in a small fish.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,rec.arts.sf.misc,rec.arts.startrek.tech
From: jdnicoll@prism.ccs.uwo.ca (James Davis Nicoll)
Subject: Re: Territorial Disputes
Organization: University of Western Ontario, London
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 17:08:58 GMT

In article <1992Dec18.234955.27937@newstand.syr.edu> pksuk@mothra.syr.EDU (Peter K. Suk) writes:
>In article <1992Dec15.172447.27522@julian.uwo.ca> 
>jdnicoll@prism.ccs.uwo.ca (James Davis Nicoll) writes:
>
>>	I'd expect in those circumstances that old cultures would run
>>into  the limitations of their environments and  their abilities,  which
>>would make territoriality as  useful as here on  Earth. 
>
>Right now, the concept of territory on Sol 3 is waning in importance.  
>Economic competition is paramount; territorial concerns regressive.  

	Why is territoriality so  common  among terrestrial species?
Could it perhaps have something with  the challenges  of  acquiring
sufficient  resources to prosper? Economics is the  study of   human
allocation of scarce  resources: why do you draw a  distinction
between economic conflict and territorialism?

	As well, I note that  territorial  conflicts are  occuring on every
continent on  the planet,  save  possibly  Australia. What data  makes
you conclude   territorial concerns  are regressive, if  they play  so
common arole in  current affairs?

						James  Nicoll
From: swf@tools3teradata.com (Stan Friesen)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science
Subject: Re: Territorial Disputes
Date: 23 Dec 92 19:17:34 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: NCR Teradata Database Business Unit

In article <BzF1LL.C7G@brunel.ac.uk>, mt90dac@brunel.ac.uk (Del Cotter) writes:
|> I've got a paper on this.
|> 
|> Author:  Martyn J. Fogg
|> 
|> Title:   Temporal Aspects of the Interaction among the First Galactic 
|> 		 Civilisations: The "Interdict Hypothesis"
|> 
|> Journal: ICARUS _69_, 370-384 (1987)
|> 
|> Martyn describes a simulation he ran ...
|> For all wavespeeds chosen, the galaxy is filled before the formation
|> of the Solar System.  For none of the wavespeeds chosen (the highest
|> being 0.1c) is this done by a single civ. ...

Has he tried variants involving non-uniform rates of origins for civilizations?

For instance, a quick back-of-the-envelope calculation suggests that there would
not have been enough heavy elements in the early universe to form large enough
planets to retain an atmosphere.  So, the first thing to do is rule out *any*
civilization around first generation stars.

Then, given that it took about 4 *billion* years for life on Earth to achieve
civilization, one should add at least a couple of billion to the date of the
first atmosphere-retaining planets before allowing civilizations to start appearing.

Would such time lags in initiation change his results?

-- 
sarima@teradata.com			(formerly tdatirv!sarima)
  or
Stanley.Friesen@ElSegundoCA.ncr.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,rec.arts.sf.misc
From: Bruce.Scott@launchpad.unc.edu (Bruce Scott)
Subject: Re: Territorial Disputes
Organization: University of North Carolina Extended Bulletin Board Service
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 00:24:28 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.203355.9636@ac.dal.ca> mabw0164@ac.dal.ca writes:
>The reasons empires come into existence are pretty fundamental, and distance
>has rarely been a limiting problem. What has been a problem has been the 
>age of the empire. After a certain period of time, it collapses from internal
>problems attributed in part to the complacency of the population of the 
>founding state.

Distance has indeed been a problem. Many elegant works in recent years
on the Asian steppe empires and ancient near eastern examples such as
the Persian and Assyrian empires have treated this. A 90-day or so
combat radius seems in general to be decisive.

>Empires have been formed, and successfully, in areas and times where travel 
>from the capital to its furthermost borders was measured in months, and the
>mode of transportation was limited to foot, horse and sail. So distance is not
>as big a problem as you might think. Responsible governors would do quite well.

Months, yes. But not years. It remains to be demonstrated that an empire
whose domain is several lifetimes' (at least) travel in size could be
stable either to internal breakup or to war. We in the US tend to use
the 1850-1880 Old West as an example (actually, pre-railroad), but the
populations were very sparse and the prospect was not seriously tested.
Orgeon discussed secession in 1861; if they had had today's population
level, even only half to one million, an attempt would have succeeded
without a fight. One does note that Deseret (later Utah) did posess
de facto independence until the railroad arrived.

Gruss,
Bruce Scott
Max-Planck-Institut fuer Plasmaphysik, Garching, Germany

--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
From: D_NIBBY@UNHH.UNH.EDU (Dana   Nibby)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science
Subject: wtbwaw
Date: 23 Dec 1992 18:32:57 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

********************************



"Would the Buddha Wear a Walkman?" book by Judith
Hopper and Dick Teresi. This book is a good intro to mind
machines, brain toys, and other methods of consciousness 
alteration. 8 1/2 X 11, 255 pages. I want to sell the rest
of my copies (all brand new). Cover price is $16.95.
I'm selling them for $10 postpaid in the U.S. only. To reserve
a copy, send e-mail to: d_nibby@unhh.unh.edu
I'll send you a table of contents and ordering info.

* To the person from INDIA who ordered the book: I NEED YOUR
  MAILING ADDRESS
Xref: sparky rec.arts.sf.science:3880 alt.folklore.science:4496
From: FFAAC09@cc1.kuleuven.ac.be (Paul Bijnens)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.science
Subject: Re: The Marching Morons (was Re: Cindy the Disco Queen)
Date: 24 Dec 92 17:30:36 GMT
 <pete.724415390@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU> <1992Dec19.002432.28274@newstand.syr.edu>
 <pete.725064249@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU>
Organization: K.U.Leuven - Academic Computing Center

In article <pete.725064249@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU>, pete@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU (Peter
Alexander Merel) says:
>
>Well, so far no one seems to have found much of a hole in Kornbluth's thesis.
>I don't know if that makes us doomed, but it does mean we should think hard
>about what to do. Direct opposition of religions and cultural forces is not
>possible. Perhaps some kind soul could engineer a strain of influenza that
>sterilizes its subjects? That's surely not beyond the abilities of modern
>science. Then all we'd have to do is develop a vaccine and make it available
>only to High School graduates. A generation later the problem would be solved.

Instead of blindly accepting the intelligence of High School graduates,
you could set up the following game:

You have three doors.  Behind two of the doors, there is a injection
with the sterilizing Influenza virus.  Behind the third door, there is
an injection with a vaccine for the Influenza virus.
You have to pick a door at random.  Then the "examinator" opens
one of the other doors, but is obliged to open a door with an
Influenza virus.  Then you are permitted to switch.  Whatever door
you choose, you get "treated" by the vaccine you choose.

   :-)  Familiar problem?  Now the "morons" would have to breed
twice as fast as the Intelligent people, just to keep up.

Beware of your definition of "moron"!  It could have been me!   :-)
--
Paul Bijnens             -- MS-DOS is the world's most widespread virus.
Linguistics dept., K. University Leuven, Belgium
Polleke@cc1.kuleuven.ac.be
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science
From: traal@lopez.marquette.MI.US (Brian Phillips)
Subject: Time Travel FAQ Request.
Organization: Great White North/UPLink
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 20:19:41 GMT

Ray Ingles:
My site has a one day expire (believe it) and I missed your FAQ by a few
hours.  Would you please EMAIL it to me?

  --Traal the BRAVE 
-- 
  EMAIL (the Good, the Bad, or the Flame) to:  traal@lopez.marquette.MI.US
   "Take a walk through the looking-glass and see the other side!" -- BPP
            "Realism is often misconstrued as pessimism." -- BPP
          "My mailer hates everybody, be sneaky." -- Mary Margret
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.science
From: pete@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU (Peter Alexander Merel)
Subject: Re: The Marching Morons
Organization: Sydney University Computing Service, Sydney, NSW, Australia
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 05:14:48 GMT

arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:
>it's not hard to imagine a dictator completely eradicating an ethnic group by
>forcibly keeping the cure from them.  This problem isn't even limited to _big_
>dictatorships; if Turkey, for instance, could only afford to keep 10% of its
>population fertile, do you really think the Kurds will get any fraction of
>that 10%?

A good argument. You are quite right about this. Ah well, back to the
drawing board - but Paul Dietz has been making the world sound like such a
bright and hopeful place that maybe we can get by without global sterilization 
after all.

-- 
Internet: pete@extro.su.oz.au             UUCP: {uunet,mcvax}!munnari!extro!pete
                       I am a big pond in a small fish.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,rec.arts.startrek.tech
From: jsbell@acs.ucalgary.ca (Joshua Bell)
Subject: Re: Time Travel and Causality Violation
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 18:22:28 GMT
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta

In article <1992Dec19.104155.14681@newstand.syr.edu> pksuk@mothra.syr.EDU (Peter K. Suk) writes:
>First, no matter can be sent through time.  When somebody time-travels,
>they essentially _explode_ and some time in the past, a bunch of matter
>comes together and froms them.  You can think of there being TWO universes
>then.  In universe 1, all "time travellers" are cranks who die in
>explosions, and there is no time travel.  In universe 2, the time
>travellers arrive, making whatever changes in the time continuum they
>choose to make.  If any of them choose to go on from u2, these folks
>explode and die in u2 and go on to u3.  Essentially, people can only
>arrive in a new universe.  (You can never go back) 

I theorized like this about a year ago on r.a.sf.movies - I call
it 'Hawking travel', tho Steven Hawking would probably have a
fit. :) The trick is to dive into one end of a wormhole, and
somehow *force* the Hawking particles on the other end to
assemble themselves into a replica of you. 

>The result: there is always a clear way of ajudicating what will happen
>in time-travel conflicts.  Paradoxes happen, but are only paradoxes
>from the viewpoint of any one universe.

Right. And if you blast into a nearly-identical universe, you can
make changes, but they won't affect where you're from. But since
its nearly identical, to you its just as good as the 'real
thing'. You could even make it to a universe which was what you
wanted (the change had already been 'made').

Of course, what happens when you bump into another 'time
traveller', perhaps even an alternate you?

>Admittedly, this is not compelling as a physical theory, but it is very 
>useful for literary purposes.  No matter HOW convoluted the time-travels
>get, one can always unravel what happens.

Joshua
|         A shimmering net undulating like an infinite borealis.             |
|                                                  - Chapterhouse: Dune      |
|                                                                            |
| jsbell@acs.ucalgary.ca  Academic Computing Services, University of Calgary |
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science
From: wengland@stephsf.com (Bill England)
Subject: Book Review: "The Big Bang Never Happened"
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 21:24:21 GMT
Organization: Stephen Software Systems Inc., Tacoma/Seattle, +1 800 829 1684
X-Bytes: 1133

 Eric J. Lerner, "The Big Bang Never Happened", 1st Vintage Books, 
 1991/1992
 ISBN 0-679-74049-X (pbx.)

 Here is another one of those excelent books in the truth is stranger
 than fiction motief.

 Erec J. Lerner shows that much of the bizzar phyics we assume is 
 gospel is actually wrong, as shown by experiments, and should
 actually be replaced by more exciting and interesting theories.

 In the book current theory is shown to contradict observation and
 an excellent historical perspective is presented to show how we
 have arived to our current, and inacurate, modern view of physics.
 
 There is quite a bit packed into this book and I could not put it
 down.   It is probally a must for those looking for a new perspective
 on physics  or a better /different base to write sci-fi from.

  Merry Xmas!


-- 
 +-  Bill England,  wengland@stephsf.COM -----------------------------------+
 |   * *      H -> He +24MeV                                                |
 |  * * * ... Oooo, we're having so much fun making itty bitty suns *       |
 |__ * * ___________________________________________________________________| 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science
From: bucknerb@bnr.ca (Brent Buckner)
Subject: Re: Time Travel and Causality Violation
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ontario, Canada
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 20:25:48 GMT

In article <1483@eouk13.eoe.co.uk> pwestlak@eoe.co.uk (Peter Westlake) writes:
>
>As an example, consider the case where you sends a signal into the past.  The signal
>switches on a light, and you determine to create a paradox by only sending the signal
>if you do not see the light come on.  Clearly there are several ways for this to fail:
>the time signal might not get through, the light bulb might be broken, or you might
>just fail to notice it.  Even if everything is in perfect working order when you start
>the experiment, and it "would have worked" if you had been doing anything other than
>sending a paradox (this ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ is a very dodgy concept, I know), then something
>will happen to prevent things working out as you intend.  Now comes the really interesting
>question:  which low-probability events are most probable?  A random surge of electrons
>sufficient to blow the bulb seems very unlikely; any electronics involved might be more
>sensitive, unless you used valves :-) ; and just how sensitive to small changes is the
>investigator's own brain?  Could it be that the most likely consequence is that you
>simply change your mind, out of fear at the idea of paradox, or for no apparent reason?
>I suspect one would have to try it to find out.

Peter describes a story I wrote a couple of years ago.
It remains unsold.  :-( 

-- 
at Bell-Northern Research
voice:        (613) 765-2739
Canada Post:  P.O. Box 3511, Station C, Ottawa, Canada, K1Y 4H7
I do not claim that BNR holds these views.  
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,rec.arts.sf.misc
From: rclark@lpl.arizona.edu (Richard Clark x4971)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science,alt.folklore.science
Subject: Re: The Marching Morons (was Re: Cindy the Disco Queen)
Date: 25 Dec 92 06:33:13 GMT
Organization: Lunar & Planetary Laboratory, Tucson AZ.

In article <92359.173136FFAAC09@cc1.kuleuven.ac.be> FFAAC09@cc1.kuleuven.ac.be (Paul Bijnens) writes:
>In article <pete.725064249@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU>, pete@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU (Peter
>Alexander Merel) says:
>>
>>Well, so far no one seems to have found much of a hole in Kornbluth's thesis.
>>I don't know if that makes us doomed, but it does mean we should think hard
>>about what to do. Direct opposition of religions and cultural forces is not
>>possible. Perhaps some kind soul could engineer a strain of influenza that
>>sterilizes its subjects? That's surely not beyond the abilities of modern
>>science. Then all we'd have to do is develop a vaccine and make it available
>>only to High School graduates. A generation later the problem would be solved.
>
>Instead of blindly accepting the intelligence of High School graduates,
>you could set up the following game:
>
>You have three doors.  Behind two of the doors, there is a injection
>with the sterilizing Influenza virus.  Behind the third door, there is
>an injection with a vaccine for the Influenza virus.
>You have to pick a door at random.  Then the "examinator" opens
>one of the other doors, but is obliged to open a door with an
>Influenza virus.  Then you are permitted to switch.  Whatever door
>you choose, you get "treated" by the vaccine you choose.
>
>   :-)  Familiar problem?  Now the "morons" would have to breed
>twice as fast as the Intelligent people, just to keep up.
>
>Beware of your definition of "moron"!  It could have been me!   :-)
>--
>Paul Bijnens             -- MS-DOS is the world's most widespread virus.
>Linguistics dept., K. University Leuven, Belgium
>Polleke@cc1.kuleuven.ac.be


Sounds like you're trying to select for good luck. Niven has already tried
this with Teela Brown in Ringworld.
A wide selection of such tests might be set up with the recipiant not knowing
which one hesh would receive. The solution to one or two might get out...
For that matter, how about study guides for your flu test? This would select
for those who can study effectively :-)

Richard Clark
rclark@lpl.arizona.edu
Xref: sparky rec.arts.sf.science:3909 alt.folklore.science:4536
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.science
Subject: Re:  Time Travel and Causality Violation
From: alien@acheron.amigans.gen.nz (Ross Smith)
Date: 22 Dec 92 19:32:55 GMT+12
 <1992Dec6.173452.10058@newstand.syr.edu> <8895@lee.SEAS.UCLA.EDU> <Bz9pw5.Csn@newcastle.ac.uk> <1632@tdat.teradata.COM>
Distribution: world
Organization: Muppet Labs

In article <1632@tdat.teradata.COM> swf@tools3teradata.com (Stan Friesen) writes:
>Actually the greatest argument against the existance of time travel was brought
>to my attention by my brother:
>
>If it is possible why aren't we up to our ears in temporal archaeologists and
>time tourists?
>
>Can you imagine what Dallas in 1964(I think) would have been like if time travel
>were possible?  At last, the chance to find out for yourself who *really* killed
>JFK!!

November 23, 1963. An important date in history -- the first episode of
"Doctor Who" was broadcast. Oh, I think someone out in the colonies got shot,
too, but that happens every day :-)

>Or the crowd in Moscow a couple of years ago when the Soviet Union collapsed!
>[Imagine, Yeltsin saved by time travellers :-)

For a *really* nasty twist on this sort of theme, hunt down a short story
called "Let's Go to Golgotha" ... damn, I've forgotten the author's name :-(


--
...... Ross Smith (Wanganui, NZ) ...... alien@acheron.amigans.gen.nz ......

This is not a disclaimer, but it plays one on TV.

--