HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: markk@tcs.com (Mark Kromer)
Subject: Re: Motorcyclist Hits Bicyclist on Skyline Blvd. (10/4/92, 1: 30p)
Followup-To: rec.bicycles.soc
Originator: markk@sparcplug
Reply-To: markk@tcs.com (Mark Kromer)
Organization: Teknekron Communications Inc.
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 23:07:51 GMT

In article <26682@castle.ed.ac.uk>, cam@castle (Chris Malcolm) writes:
>In article <1992Oct7.203921.16224@netcom.com> douglas@netcom.com (Douglas Mason) writes:

>>I can see that the speeding is a problem, but why on earth is a bike
>>being loud a problem?  Seems like the noise at least alerts a biker that
>>something is coming.  If they were completely silent, the biker would be
>>all over the road and something would come out of nowhere at an unreasonable
>>speed.

>Bicyclists hear best of any road user. Unless the cyclist is deaf, a
>motorcycle whose exhaust was _completely_ silent would still be making
>enough engine noise and tyre noise on an empty road that the cyclist
>would hear it coming in plenty of time.

Bullshit.

A friend of mine was riding a stock CB1 in a residential area here in
Berkeley, when he approached a bicyclist riding along the right side
of the road.  Without looking behind him, the bicyclist made a sudden
left turn across my friends path causing him to panic brake.  My
friend locked the front brake and dumped his bike breaking his hand
and damagine his bike.

This bicyclist assumed that he could hear any vehicle approaching him,
he was wrong.  His carelessness cost my friend a lot of money and
misery.

DO NOT spread the dangerous myth that bicyclists can always hear
motorcycles approaching!  Next time it could be you Chris!

--
)V(ark)<               markk@tcs.com                   DoD #400
1988 FZR400 / 1985 ZX900 Ninja / 1977 RD400D / 1991 GT Tequesta
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: shenry@cs.rice.edu (Sam Henry)
Subject: Re: Motorcyclist Hits Bicyclist on Skyline Blvd. (10/4/92, 1:30p)
Organization: Rice University, Houston
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 18:57:19 GMT

In article <1992Oct8.032223.6075@eye.com> jesse@eye.com (Jesse Lackey)
writes: 

>You know, something I've *always* wanted to do is come up alongside a
>bicyclist and give them a good hard shove  ... I wouldn't mind doing
>joggers either ... These people have to learn that roads are for
>vehicles, not people. 

>Jesse Lackey
>    Relationships, the final frontier

Let me guess.

And you're lost at the edge of the frontier.
-- 
sam henry <shenry@rice.edu>
Wanna ride?
From: don@island.COM (Don Hermes)
Subject: Re: 105 MPH (was Re: Motorcyclist Hits Bicyclist on Skyline Blvd.)
Organization: /usr/local/rn/organization
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 18:38:19 GMT

In article <73198@apple.Apple.COM> ehouse@Apple.COM (Eric House) writes:
>Ok, I give up.  What the hell does "DoD" stand for.  I don't suppose it's
>motorcycle for "STI"?

Debauchers of Donuts 

(really it's - denizens of doom)

Don
don@island.com


Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: ampe@cbnews.cb.att.com (john.e.ampe)
Subject: Re: Ticketing illegal cycling
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 20:03:41 GMT

In article <1992Oct9.161713.4778@u.washington.edu> wolffie@u.washington.edu writes:
>In article <casseres-011092095534@missmolly.apple.com> casseres@apple.com  
>(David Casseres) writes:
>>The same applies to red lights when I am turning right.  I signal turns and  
>>lane changes when it seems necessary (which is not usual)
>
>This is my greatest single complaint about CAR drivers - they only signal  
>when they think they have to, forgetting that it isn't the person they SEE,  
>but the one they DON'T SEE, who most needs to know what they're going to do

I quite agree.  Amazingly enough, however, the law here in Mass. (and
I think in most states) agrees with Daivd: you only have to signal
when you are changing your direction in a manner that could interfere
with another vehicle.

John_Ampe@att.com
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: scherrer@ifi.unizh.ch (Stefan Scherrer)
Subject: Re: Noise Stress, Was: Motorcyclist Hits Bicyclist on Skyline Blvd. (10/4/92, 1: 30p)
Reply-To: scherrer@ifi.unizh.ch
Organization: University of Zurich, Department of Computer Science
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 09:18:38 GMT

In article 16224@netcom.com, douglas@netcom.com (Douglas Mason) writes:
>In article <1992Oct7.180019.14603@morrow.stanford.edu> karish@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Chuck Karish) writes:
>
>>And by the motorcyclists who ride too fast on bikes that
>>are too loud, and who have no clue how their actions are
>>perceived by others.
>
>I can see that the speeding is a problem, but why on earth is a bike
>being loud a problem?  Seems like the noise at least alerts a biker that
>something is coming.  If they were completely silent, the biker would be
>all over the road and something would come out of nowhere at an unreasonable
>speed.
>

I guess that one  should take into consideration that noise is a stress factor. Not only for bicyclists but for people living near roads as well. If I get passed by reckless motocyclists, running their tools at a frequency over about 10000, I get scared immediately and soon after that my aggression increases considerably. 

Hence, I fully agree with Mr. Karish. Scaringly many people (byciclists, motocyclists and car/truck drivers) which lack responsibility are on the road...
Too many people are hit on the roads. The lack of responsibility produces costs (at least in switzerland), which have to be carried by the public. E.g. the public suffers in the increase of premiums for health (or illness?) insurances.
The aggression mentioned above substantially decreases my solidarity to pay for reckless people.

Hence, people should consider the consequences of what they do and not avoid 
responsibility!

---
Stefan Scherrer                         Phone   : +41 1 257 45 76 
Institut fuer Informatik                Fax     : +41 1 363 00 35
Universitaet Zuerich                    Telex   : 817 251 unii ch 
Winterthurerstrasse 190                 EAN     : scherrer@ifi.unizh.ch
CH-8057 Zuerich, Switzerland 
---

Xref: sparky rec.bicycles.soc:577 rec.motorcycles:35949 ba.motorcycles:585
From: ldh@svl.cdc.com (Lawrence D. Hare)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc,rec.motorcycles,ba.motorcycles
Subject: Re: 105 MPH (was Re: Motorcyclist Hits Bicyclist on Skyline Blvd.)
Date: 14 Oct 92 00:32:14 GMT
Followup-To: rec.bicycles.soc
Organization: Control Data Systems
X-UserAgent: Nuntius v1.1.1d9
X-XXMessage-ID: <A700B86ED0010456@ethelred.svl.cdc.com>
X-XXDate: Tue, 13 Oct 92 17:31:26 GMT

In article <Bw0vBJ.6F4@rice.edu> Sam Henry, shenry@cs.rice.edu writes:
>In article <1992Oct8.032223.6075@eye.com> jesse@eye.com (Jesse Lackey)
>writes: 
>
>>You know, something I've *always* wanted to do is come up alongside a
>>bicyclist and give them a good hard shove  ... I wouldn't mind doing
>>joggers either ... These people have to learn that roads are for
>>vehicles, not people. 

And what about animals? Shove them too? Or perhaps just squash them. They
have to learn as well I suppose.

Seems to me that there is a lot of learning required here...
--
Lawrence D. Hare     ldh@svl.cdc.com
From: reid@penguin.ocgy.ubc.ca (Ken Reid)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: Ticketing illegal cycling
Date: 16 Oct 1992 20:30:02 GMT
Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: penguin.ocgy.ubc.ca

In article <casseres-161092113650@missmolly.apple.com>, casseres@apple.com (David Casseres) writes:

> > therefore dangerous is somewhat specious.  One could argue that if you
> > are not able to take your hand off the bars and maintain control, you
> > are not riding within your bike handling skills.
> 
> One could argue that, but then one would be making a horse's ass of
> oneself.
> 
> Look, I didn't say that I'm "afraid I'll crash and burn."  I said that
> making a signal entails some cost in stability.  If you ride a bike (which
> I doubt) then you know that.

Well, I ride my bike all the time for commuting and recreation and I will grant 
you the fact that riding with only one hand reduces some stability.  However if
you are unable to safely signal in this manner then you have to practice this 
skill until you can if you want to properly integrate with the commuting 
community.

ken
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: avdh@sunnyboy.dazixco.ingr.com (Alain van der Heide)
Subject: Unusual motorist behavior
Organization: Dazix - An Intergraph Company
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 17:02:45 GMT


(Boulder, CO) Yesterday, I was riding west up Valmont (a 4 lane city street
with bike lanes).  The light at 28th was red.  As I was slowing, I glanced over
my shoulder, and noticed that the car behind me had its right turn signal
flashing, so I swung to the left side of the right line.  As the woman passed
me, and made her right turn on red, she rolled down the window and said,
"Thank you, that was considerate".  I said "You're welcome".

I post this for all you out there who believe that motorists never notice when
cyclists do something sensible, and that confrontational tactics are the only
ones to take in traffic.

avdh@dazixco.ingr.com
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: josh@Happy-Man.com (Joshua_Putnam)
Subject: Re: Ticketing illegal cycling
Reply-To: Joshua_Putnam@happy-man.com
Organization: Happy Man Corp., Vashon Island, WA 98070-7399
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 17:31:07 GMT

In <5432@gold.gvg.tek.com> jimd@pequod.gvg.tek.com (Jim Delwiche) writes:

>You intend to make a right turn,
>and, since you are afraid you might crash and burn if you take a hand
>off the bars, you just creep through the stop sign and make a right
>turn.  Whether you put your foot down and make a legal stop or not,
                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Does anyone know of a legal basis for this?  Do any state's
laws actually require cyclists to put a foot down for a stop
to be legal?  Or is the generic definition of a stop, e.g.
"complete cessation of forward movement," all that is
required of cyclists?  I once talked my way out of a ticket
by demonstrating that I could, in fact, stop completely
without putting a foot down, but that doesn't mean I was
legally correct.  
-- 
 Joshua_Putnam@happy-man.com    Happy Man Corp.  206/463-9399 x102
 4410 SW Pt. Robinson Rd., Vashon Island, WA  98070-7399  fax x108
 We publish SOLID VALUE for the intelligent investor.  NextMail OK
Info free; sample $20: Send POSTAL addr: Solid-Value@happy-man.com
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc,rec.motorcycles,ba.motorcycles
From: jimb@access.digex.com (Jim Brooking)
Subject: Re: Motorcyclist Hits Bicyclist...
Organization: National Commitee to Keep Slower Traffic Right
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 15:00:31 GMT

In article <1992Oct6.033513.19829@iscnvx.lmsc.lockheed.com> bushnell@iscnvx.lmsc.lockheed.com (William D. Bushnell) writes:

>  [unfortunate incident deleted]
>
>I returned to my waiting companions as the van left and the motorcyclists
>continued on their way.  Our ride was to continue south on Skyline to Hwy 9,
>and we joked about maybe avoiding the busy roadway.  Nevertheless, we pressed
>on.  At the top of the first significant upgrade between Page Mill Rd. and
>Hwy 9, a group of three motorcyclists came zooming by.  The lead motorcyclist
>dressed in a red and white leather suit riding a white motorcycle was holding
>his leg out to the right, bringing his foot to within a foot or two of us.
>
>"Did you see that?  What was he trying to do!?", I exclaimed to Bryan who was
>riding in front of me.
>
>"Oh, he's probably just trying to point us out to the guys following him.",
>Bryan said.  "I wouldn't worry about that."
>
>----------------------

I use my leg(s) to point out hazards to riders behind me.  I dunno, maybe
it's a strange thing to do.  It's hard to see hand signals of somebody
in race-prone position on a sportbike.  8^)

Cheers
-- 
jimb@access.digex.com  | (Cage) 1991 323se     ZCP-710   |     Comus Road
Merry Land (MD) U.S.A. | (Bike) 1986 GSXR750    (sold)   |     ClarksBURG
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              NeXTstep 3.0:  Have you hugged *your* object today?
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: bgeer@javelin.sim.es.com (Bob Geer)
Subject: Re: 105 MPH (was Re: Motorcyclist Hits Bicyclist on Skyline Blvd.)
Reply-To: bgeer@javelin.sim.es.com
Organization: Evans & Sutherland Computer Corporation
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 15:28:25 GMT

casseres@apple.com (David Casseres) writes:
>In article <48560@shamash.cdc.com>, ldh@svl.cdc.com (Lawrence D. Hare)
>wrote:
>> 
>> In article <Bw0vBJ.6F4@rice.edu> Sam Henry, shenry@cs.rice.edu writes:
>> >In article <1992Oct8.032223.6075@eye.com> jesse@eye.com (Jesse Lackey)
>> >writes: 
>> >
>> >>You know, something I've *always* wanted to do is come up alongside a
>> >>bicyclist and give them a good hard shove  ... I wouldn't mind doing
>> >>joggers either ... These people have to learn that roads are for
>> >>vehicles, not people. 
>> 
>> And what about animals? Shove them too? Or perhaps just squash them. They
>> have to learn as well I suppose.
>> 
>> Seems to me that there is a lot of learning required here...

>Am I the only one who thinks Jesse Lackey was trying to make a joke?  I
>don't think it's very funny, but I have a hard time taking it seriously.

Doesn't "lackey" tell all you need to know about this guy?
--
From: p00004@psilink.com (Michael Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: Do we have any rights?
Date: 9 Oct 92 20:11:15 GMT
Organization: Performance Systems Int'l
X-Mailer: PSILink (3.2)

>DATE:   8 Oct 92 16:41:34 GMT
>FROM:   Shamim Zvonko Mohamed <sham@cs.arizona.edu>
[material deleted]
>This is strange. I was in a similar accident - no, make that was a victim of
>careless driving about a year ago. The cop who showed up did cite the driver,
>and also gave him a lecture. Most gratifying. The driver was as usual making
>noises about "where did he come from" and "just couldn't see him" as I was
>writhing on the ground, and I heard one of the witnesses say "What the hell
>are you talking about? He was riding along, and you just drove into him! What
>do you think he did, hide behind a hedge and jump out in front of you?" I
>wanted to sit up and shake his hand.

Hosanna in excelsis. At last, a story in which the law sides with a 
cyclist (first I've heard, by the way). 

But just what was he cited for? Did it go to court? Did you get any 
money for bicycle damage and/or pain-n-suffering? 

Oh, and in what fortunate city did this incident take place? How's the 
job market there?

--Michael Smith
From: jciccare@adobe.com (John Ciccarelli)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: Ticketing illegal cycling
Summary: There are subtle reasons why police don't ticket
Date: 9 Oct 92 17:10:22 GMT
Reply-To: jciccare@adobe.com (John Ciccarelli)
Followup-To: rec.bicycles.soc
Organization: Silicon Valley Bicycle Coalition

Many cyclists wonder why police don't ticket dangerous and illegal
cyclist behavior (wrong-way, no lights at night, dangerous turns, etc.).

At this week's Palo Alto Bicycle Advisory Committee (PABAC) meeting, 
we got a chance to ask a city police officer directly.  We learned 
several things:

* Fines of well over $100 for most infractions (calibrated to dangers
of motor vehicles) are a serious deterrent to the officer who sees
a violation.  That's twice the cost of some of these people's bikes!
We intend to look into whether there are line-items in each ticket that 
can be eliminated for nonmotorized vehicles, which would have the effect 
of reducing the fine to a more reasonable level.  I personally intend 
to explore the idea of a state bill to create bike infraction fines of
reasonable amount, say $25 to $40, but still high enough to deter.

* The State of California has lately been rooting about for ways to 
balance their budget, and they're grabbing all sorts of local revenues, 
including a bigger slice of each ticket issued by police.  So local 
jurisdictions have less incentive to ticket.

* Up to now, police haven't heard from responsible cyclist organizations
that we *want* unsafe behavior to earn a citation or at least a warning.
In the absence of such input, whenever they ticket a youth, all they get 
is hassle from the parent.  In fact, the officer said words to the effect
of, "this is the first time we've got a message from the serious cyclists
of this city that this is important".

* Officers have no materials to hand out to unskilled bicyclists when they
stop them for a warning.  PABAC members intend to remedy this with samples
and ordering information.

Bottom line:

Work with your local club or advocacy organization to build a bridge to
your city police department.  They may be more willing than you think
to start enforcing bike infractions.  

Mention that for cycling to deliver on its promise for air quality
improvement and traffic congestion reduction, it has to be taken
seriously as transportation -- and that means education and enforcement.
(The officer we spoke with mentioned this "transporation alternatives"
angle on his own...)

/John

-- 
John Ciccarelli           Adobe Systems,  1585 Charleston |    _~C      __C
jciccare@mv.us.adobe.com  Mountain View CA USA 94039-7900 |  ='\<,    ='\<,
uunet!adobe!jciccare      415/962-6677,  fax:415/903-0584 | (&)/(\)  (&)/(\)
=== "If you live within 7 miles of your job, why drive?" === BIKE TO WORK ==
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: Michael F. Kamprath <kamprath@space-grant.sprl.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Another accident/cop story
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 92 22:16:33 EDT
Organization: University of Michigan, Aerospace Engineering
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d12
X-Xxmessage-Id: <A6FD07665A01C4FC@sprl-mac2016.sprl.umich.edu>
X-Xxdate: Sat, 10 Oct 92 22:19:18 GMT

In article <Bvuy9q.MuF@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> , nho@bragg.bio.purdue.edu writes:
>	I guess that it is time to trudge back into the state vehicle
>code or possibly hunt down one of our local bicycle-lawyers.  It seems strange
>that you can maim and nearly kill someone and not get charged with anything.
>If any of you out there want to murder someone in Indiana, just get them
>on a bicycle and find someone to wipe them out with their car.
>
>Norm Olson

Though it would probaly not be enough, I do think the biker can hold her liable
in civil court.  If he can't suspend her liscense, maybe he can make her unable
to afford gasoline (or at least her insurance company).

========================================================================
| Michael F. Kamprath                   | The University of Michigan   |
|   kamprath@space-grant.sprl.umich.edu |      Aerospace Engineering   |
|   kamprath@engin.umich.edu            |                              |
+---------------------------------------+------------------------------+
| This country is a _democracy_.  It is NOT a "Two Party Sytem."  DO   |
| NOT believe The Lie that not voting Republican or Democratic will    |
| waste your vote.  Vote for who ever you please, and let the          |
| politicians find out what a democratic government is all about.      | 
========================================================================
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: "Michael Smith" <p00004@psilink.com>
Subject: Re: Do we have any rights?
Organization: Performance Systems Int'l
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 15:18:15 GMT
X-Mailer: PSILink (3.2)

>DATE:   12 Oct 92 18:09:50 GMT
>FROM:   Shamim Zvonko Mohamed <sham@cs.arizona.edu>
[material deleted]
>Tucson.[....] is very nice for a bicycle
>lifestyle.  Wide roads, city engineers responsive to cyclists' complaints,
>and bike cops with a really good attitude. 
[material on Tucson bike facilities deleted]

This was a most interesting and encouraging post. I wonder how Tucson 
came to be so bike-positive (strikingly so, for a US city). Anybody know 
what the political/social/whatever background is?

--Michael Smith


Xref: sparky rec.bicycles.soc:505 rec.motorcycles:35305 ba.motorcycles:514
From: ehouse@Apple.COM (Eric House)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc,rec.motorcycles,ba.motorcycles
Subject: Re: Motorcyclist Hits Bicyclist on Skyline Blvd. (10/4/92, 1: 30p)
Date: 8 Oct 92 16:03:58 GMT
Distribution: ba
Organization: Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, CA

In article <1992Oct7.221032.11161@morrow.stanford.edu> karish@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Chuck Karish) writes:
>
>I was answering the question, "Why do motorcyclists have a
>bad image with the public?", not "How can bicyclists keep
>from being flattened by motorcyclists?".
>
>People who live on Skyline and have to listen to
>motorcycles all day are not much impressed by the
>"loud pipes save lives" argument.

I feel awfully sorry for those unfortunates who have to live up on Skyline
and listen to loud motorcycles all day.  If you know any of them personally
let him know that I'd be willing, for some compensation, to trade places.
From my house all you can hear is traffic on Alma and an occasional train.
If he can see the Valley from his house he already knows what we breathe in
place of air.
-- 
****************************************************************************
Eric House			"My employer doesn't share its opinions with
"Quayle in '94"		   	 me, so I can share only mine with you"
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc


>>
>>   When I notice a motor vehicle coming behind me, I
>>   turn my head to the left to let the vehicle behind me know that I am
>>   aware of *them*.  
>>
>Please, could all bike-riders start to do this?  It would really make me
>feel a lot better about passing you...

And while we are making requests...
Will motor vehicle users start using their turn signals?
Will motor vehicle users stop passing when it is unsafe to do so?
Will motor vehicle users start driving at safe speeds?  Assume a truck
   is around the corner, not a "stupid" cyclists!
If only we could change the laws of nature, and the only person you
could hurt was yourself.  I suspect drivers of motor vehicles would have
different attitudes towards others if an accident they caused could only
cause their own death.

Xref: sparky rec.bicycles.soc:552 rec.motorcycles:35723
From: jeq@i88.isc.com (Jonathan E. Quist)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc,rec.motorcycles
Subject: Re: Motorcyclist Hits Bicyclist...
Date: 12 Oct 92 15:25:04 GMT
Article-I.D.: i88.1992Oct12.152504.20292
Organization: INTERACTIVE Systems Corporation, Naperville, IL

In article <1992Oct11.135804.29118@cis.ohio-state.edu> akins@flamingo.cis.ohio-state.edu (gregory adkins) writes:
>Riding a bicycle is very intimidating on heavily traveled roads.  

Same for motorcycles.

>Compounded by the lack of size, and, a problem that motorcyclists
>don't have, they can't get out of harms way quickly.  

I wonder if this is a myth that motorcyclists use to feel safer?
I find my bicycle to be more maneuverable than my motorcycle, but then,
I don't think I've hit 45 mph on my bicycle for over 15 years....
(Not since I lost my immortality, anyhow.)

>While riding my bicycle, anything from people swerving to a short honk
>while I'm not paying attention can startle me and potentially cause
>an accident

Uh, "not paying attention"?  On a "heavily traveled road"?  That combination
does not mix well, whether you're on a bicycle, motorcycle, or
Volvo wagon (with the extra I-beam in the roof).  In this case, I submit,
it is more likely the lack of attention that will ultimately cause
an accident.
-- 
Jonathan E. Quist                              INTERACTIVE Systems Corporation
jeq@i88.isc.com  '71 CL450-K4 "Gleep", DoD #094        Naperville, IL
        There are many things a person should experience in a lifetime.
       Among them are an infant's first cry, and an infant's first laugh.
From: lous@hpnmdla.sr.hp.com (Lou Salz)
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 18:41:33 GMT
Subject: Re: HOV abolished!
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Santa Rosa, CA