HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rivk@quads.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Feminism Meets Terrorism
Date: 12 Apr 92 04:37:52 GMT
Reply-To: rivk@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations

In article <1992Apr7.233837.16543@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>In article <1992Apr6.024328.24670@midway.uchicago.edu> rivk@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>>In article <1992Apr3.195626.29417@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>>>In article <1992Apr1.143612.16645@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem) writes:
>>
>>>>I guess that in Jake's mind women bear
>>>>children and children grow up to become terrorists so killing women and
>>>>children "is a legitimate preventative measure, or something along those
>>>>lines." 
>>
>>>You guess wrong, Ali.  Shouldn'a relied on your buddy Ahmed.
>>
>>Is there a reason why the two of you seem to regard killing women as
>>worse than killing men?
>>
>>Just curious.
>
>Seeing as Brad/Ali brought it up, perhaps you should adress the question
>to him.

I addressed it to both of you, since you appear to be accepting the premise
by your, "You guess wrong..." above. He answwered me a couple of days ago.

>Out of curiosity, are you suggesting that men killing women and children
>is about as (un)reasonable as men killing men?  How about planeloads of
>women and children?

I think that people killing civilians is equally bad whether the civilians
are male or female; I think that people killing military personnel in war-
time is acceptable or not depending on what I think of the war, also with-
out regard to whether the military personnel is male or female.

>Jake Livni

	-Nora


-- 
Oseh shalom b'imromav, hu ya'aseh shalom aleinu v'al kol yisrael.
From: anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: PROMINENT IRANIAN BAHA'I EXECUTED
Date: 15 Apr 92 14:53:59 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

In article <1992Apr15.140159.10768@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> sethr@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (seth.r.rosenthal) writes:
>In article <1992Apr14.224820.12251@eng.umd.edu>, alireza@eng.umd.edu (Alireza Karimzadeh-Rad) writes:
>> 
>> However let's say that what you've stated is true. My question is how
>> come Israel sold arms to the government ruling Iran? I'm really
>> interested to read your thoughts on this.
>> 
>
>Because the U.S. asked them to.  That is the price you pay for
>taking the aid, and being an ally, sometimes you have to do
>distasteful things that the ally needs you to do.

I hope it went down easy ;-)

The situation was that, as it was presented to me by the media *and* 
several Israelis back in 1985, before the Iran-Contra story broke, it was 
considered to be in Israel's interest to perpetuate the Iran/Iraq War
indefinitely, to keep Saddam's roving eyes off of Israel.  So casting
Israel's arming of Iran as a "distasteful thing that the ally needs you
to do" is incredibly misleading.  In Israel, the U.S. found a willing
and experienced partner in providing Iran with military assistance.


Brinkley, Joel
Israel fears that peace in the Persian Gulf will unleash a bitter
foe: Iraq's next move.
New York Times v137 Section 4 pE2(N) pE2(L) 1988 Sun July 24

Shipler, David K.
Officials say U.S. misled the Iraqis on Iran shipments; Israeli
arms at issue; Baghdad ambassador asserts Washington abandoned
neutrality in Gulf war.
New York Times v136 Section 1 p1(L) 1986 Sun Nov 23

Saudi intermediary on Iran also reportedly urged that Israel sell
weapons to Iraq. (The White House Crisis; The Israeli Stake)
New York Times v136 p9(N) pA11(L) 1986 Thu Nov 27

Lewis, Flora
Secrecy buys ignorance. (Israeli claims about Iran) (column)
New York Times v136 p31(N) pA39(L) 1986 Fri Dec 19

Sciolino, Elaine
Iran, in 6-year search for arms, finds world of willing
suppliers. (Western countries provide about 20 percent of Iran's
purchases) (includes related article)
New York Times v136 p1(N) pA1(L) 1986 Tue Nov 25

Safire, William
Appease or oppose? Rethinking Israel's Iran policy. (column)
New York Times v136 p27(N) pA27(L) 1987 Thu Feb 26

Moses, Alfred H.
Israel is placing the wrong bet. (policies regarding Iran, Iraq)
(column)
New York Times v136 p27(N) pA27(L) 1987 Wed March 11

Friedman, Thomas L.
Israelis question tilt toward Iran; wary of fundamentalist rise
in Islam, some are urging arms be sold to Iraq.
New York Times v137 p4(N) p4(L) 1987 Sat Oct 31


>
>Now if you want to know why the Americans asked them to, its
>because we had a President who thought
>he could buy favor with Iranian "moderates".
>
>		Seth Rosenthal
>
>Disclaimer: All opinions are my own not my employers'.


-- 
Anwar Mohammed                           Graduate Student
anwar+@cs.cmu.edu  (NeXTmail welcome!)   School of Computer Science
Voice: +1 412 268 3043                   Carnegie-Mellon University
Fax:   +1 412 681 5739                   Pittsburgh, PA  15213-3890
From: souissi@ei.ecn.purdue.edu (Ridha Souissi)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Give TPM back to those who want to talk about the Mideast
Date: 15 Apr 92 18:52:15 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network

In article <1992Apr15.170432.12305@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (perlman eric) writes:
>In article <1992Apr15.033306.26725@noose.ecn.purdue.edu> souissi@ei.ecn.purdue.edu (Ridha Souissi) writes:
>>In article <1992Apr14.203807.27039@wpi.WPI.EDU> nyh@sparkplug (Nevo Y Hed) writes:
>>>
>>>	Excuse me if this was offered before, I have been away from
>>>TPM for a while.  What about getting moderators on this group???  It
>>>is done in other groups usch as sci.virtual-worlds soc.religion.islam
>>>(i think i counted about 135 such groups at our site).
>>>
>>>	So what will it be???  ya know that opening a alt.revisionists
>>>wont get the slimeballs outta here... I am not talking bout taking
>>>someon's freedom of speach (*** forbid) away, I mean even grabage like
>>>ARF's belongs here (well sometimes, I mean when th subject is not
>>>Secret Rabbi Taxes (Kosher foods) etc).
>>>
>>>
>>
>>I personally don't find ARF's postings garbage at all.  On
>>the contrary, I find them often quite informative and
>>reasonable.  Just because you don't agree with someone
>>doesn't justify censorship.
>
>Calling ARF's postings "informative and reasonable" is like saying David
>Duke is struggling only for overall equality.
>
>Both are ridiculous and untrue.
>

How about your postings, are they informative, reasonable and
unbiased? are you just and equal in your writings?  My answer
is no.  everyone has his own opinions, and everyone is free
to state his views no matter how different they are.  Isn't
this what freedom of speech is all about?
>-- 
>"How sad to see/A model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport
>A battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -Tim Rice,"Chess"
>     Eric S. Perlman  <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> or <eric@lyra.Colorado.EDU> 
>  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder
From: han@anadolu.michigan.com (hasan.b.mutlu)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.german
Subject: The Main Victims Of PKK's Attacks Are Fellow Kurds, 'Milanini.'
Date: 16 Apr 92 22:34:00 GMT



<1992Apr14.023318.29759@microsoft.com>
marcmil@microsoft.com (Marc MILANINI)

>Even if only people carrying weapons, or even PKK terrorists,
>were dead in those bombings (which I doubt), it would still
>be shameful for the Turkish government. I think it was once again
>a "kill first, trial after".

You blew it again. The main victims of PKK's attacks are fellow
Kurds in southeastern Turkiye. The PKK is receiving important
logistical and material support from Iraq and Syria. Such 
assistance includes rockets, artillery and other weapons more
suited to full-scale combat than terrorist operations, 'Milanini.'
The people of Turkiye will deal firmly with this terrorist Marxist
gang.

>Who else calls those people "terrorists" but the Turkish governement ?

The cold-blooded murder of 3000+ defenseless Turkish women and children
will not go unpunished.

>The fact that they disagree with the Turkish policy, and try to impose
>by force something that has been denied to them so far does not make
>them terrorists.

What are you mumbling, 'Milanini?' The PKK was created by the KGB.

>Because someone else does something does not make this something right.
>I think that a democratic government would trial someone before
>putting them to death. I you think otherwise, you should read more
>about human rights.

Obviously you know very little about the extermination of 3000+ innocent
people by the PKK. Again, no ethnic or religious group was given minority 
status in Lausanne Agreement except non-Muslims in Turkiye and Muslims 
in Greece, given the status on the basis of reciprocity. Also recognized 
were special rights which could be described as privileges. That was how 
the Greek and Jewish communities gained a 'minority' status. It seems that 
you have not had time to study the Lausanne Agreement. Read the Lausanne 
Agreement and the Turkish Constitution before you drivel. 

>I am sure that they are very thankful for your nice words.

What is your problem now?

>"Show me a man who thinks he knows, and I shall show you a fool"

Don't worry about occasional failures.

Hasan B-) Mutlu

                     'Kill Turks and Kurds wherever you find them 
                      and in whatever circumstances you find them. 
                      Turkish children also should be killed as 
                      they form a danger to the Armenian nation.' 
                                     (Hamparsum Boyadjian - 1914)
From: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Troops Kill Three In West Bank
Date: 8 Apr 92 16:43:08 GMT
Reply-To: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Organization: North Carolina State University


TROOPS KILL THREE IN WEST BANK

OCCUPIED JERUSALEM, March 29 (Agencies) -- Israeli soldiers shot and
killed a 24-year-old Palestinian during a chase through a refugee camp
in the occupied West Bank, the army said today.

Arab reports said the victim ran away when he was ordered to halt
because he was with three Palestinians wanted by the army for
anti-Israeli activities. Yesterday Israeli forces shot and killed two
Palestinians in the Israeli-occupied West Bank, military and Palestinian
sources said.

The army said troops opened fire while chasing four wanted residents of
the Faraa refugee camp 10 kms north of Nablus.

One Palestinian was hit and later died in hospital, the army said, and
the others were captured with a pistol in their possession.

Palestinian sources said undercover troops also killed Usama Al-Ahmad
from the village of Rummaneh, 10 kms north of Jenin.

A bomb exploded yesterday on a major street in Gaza. Palestinian sources
said the bomb injured the hand of a 15-year-old youth from the adjacent
Shatti refugee camp.

He was taken to hospital, where troops arrested him, the sources said.

Meanwhile, a report from Lebanon and militiamen fired 20 Katyusha
rockets into Israel's self-styled "security zone" in south Lebanon at
dawn today security sources said. The sources, requesting anonymity,
said the rockets crashed around 4:30 a.m. (March 29) in the groves of
the village of Aaichiye, about six kilometers north of Marjayoun.

They said one rocket fell near a house in Aaichiye, causing damage.

The Voice of the South, run by the South Lebanon Army, a predominantly
Christian guerrilla group trained and financed by Israel, said the
Katyushas were fired from the village of Jarjou, a stronghold for Hezbollah.

There was no immediate responsibility claim for the attack, which came a
few days after Hezbollah militiamen killed two SLA gunmen in a bomb explosion.

The increasing violence underscored fears of a widening conflict between
Israel, which has yet to retaliate for the deadly bombing of its embassy
in Argentina, and Hezbollah, which has vowed to avenge last month's
killing by Israel of its leader Sheikh Abbas Mosawi.

[Arab News, March 30, 1992]
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: m_lehoul@oz.plymouth.edu (Michael L. Le Houllier)
Subject: Re: Muslim hatred of Jews!
Reply-To: m_lehoul@oz.plymouth.edu (Michael L. Le Houllier)
Organization: Plymouth State College - Plymouth, N.H.
Distribution: talk.politics.mideast
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 92 14:06:27 GMT

If the Mislims hate the Jews so much, why did the Ottoman Empire and
later Turkey become a major haven for Jews.  The most notable
occurances are the expulsion of the Jews from Spain in 1492 and Jewish
refugees from Nazi occupied Europe.  Of course there are many more
examples, but I hardly call this hatred of the Jews by Muslims as
Turkey is one of the worlds largest Islamic states (6 th I believe).


-- 
 Michael Le Houllier           *  John 3:16  * Nov 12, 1991 - Dili      
 (m_lehoul@oz.plymouth.edu.us) *  Remember: June 4, 1989 - Beijing
 Go BLUE JAYS   1-0   at Tigers Monday (4-2), Wednesday and Thursday
 End the strike.  Get back on the ice.  Get the playoffs going.
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:10990 talk.politics.soviet:3462 soc.culture.greek:3369
From: anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Mark must *love* his toes (was Re: Mark Ira Kaufman...Foot in Mouth (was e: EXAMPLES, PLEASE!))
Date: 6 Apr 92 23:55:32 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon



Mark, 

Please, please, please, take a little exercise in reading comprehension...

In article <1992Apr5.002822.1649@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:
>
>   We're still waiting.  

I'm still waiting for you to get a clue.

>Are you claiming that Arabs denounce 
>terrorist acts, but they just do it secretly?  What kind of shit 
>do think the world will believe?  You are so full of shit, you
>could fertilize the world with your crap!  Since the distintion
>between 'Arab' and 'prominent Arab' is so important, why have'nt
>YOU denounced any terrorist acts committed against Jews?  

Look, Jerk, why don't you try rifling through my past postings
in your own interest, please, you are making more and more of a fool 
of yourself.

>I am
>asking you to quote ANY Arab leader that has denounced terrorism
>against Jews.  

Why should I?  I never made such a claim.  

I will spell it out for you, loud and clear:

I PERSONALLY KNOW OF MANY ARABS WHO HAVE PRIVATELY DENOUNCED TERRORISM.  
THEY MAY NOT BE *P*R*O*M*I*N*E*N*T* BUT THEY (IN COMBINATION WITH MY VARIOUS 
POSTINGS) DIRECTLY CONTRADICT ILLAN'S IMPLICATION THAT HE HAS YET TO HEAR OF 
*A*N*Y*A*R*A*B*S* DENOUNCE TERRORISM.

And, no, I will not post the names of those I know who support this view.
It would be incredibly naive of you to expect me to do so knowing the
state of human rights in most middle eastern countries.

>And if Arabs in general are against terrorism of 
>Jews, then your leaders do not represent the attitudes of the 
>Arab world.  And if this is the case, then why are they your leaders?
>I suggest that you stop being a total embarrasment to the world's
>Arabs.  And as I said before, put up or shut up!

Sigh...see above.


-- 
Anwar Mohammed                           Graduate Student
anwar+@cs.cmu.edu  (NeXTmail welcome!)   School of Computer Science
Voice: +1 412 268 3043                   Carnegie-Mellon University
Fax:   +1 412 681 5739                   Pittsburgh, PA  15213-3890
From: gross@befvax.uchicago.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Even *more* responses from. . . .Ralph
Date: 13 Apr 92 16:58:34 GMT
Article-I.D.: midway.1992Apr13.165834.23120
Reply-To: gross@befvax.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago, Dept of Molecular Genetics

In article <1992Apr13.050934.5000@newshost.anu.edu.au>, bdm@anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:
>In article 57295@cup.portal.com, Paktor@cup.portal.com (David L Paktor) writes:
>>
>>In article:  <1992Apr4.033710.4665@midway.uchicago.edu>
>>Nazis regard Arabs as "untermenschen", too.
>
>This is true.  It is interesting to note that the Nazis found the
>Mufti acceptable because they thought (from his appearance?) that
>he had Causcasian or Aryan blood which "enables us to expect from
>[him] the faithfulness of an ally of which pure Arab blood would
>be incapable".  See p263, 315 of L. Hirszowicz, The Third Reich and
>the Arab East".
>
>>[...more deleted by bdm..]
>>David
>
>Brendan.

I posted earlier that the Arabs were considered by some Nazis to
be 'honorary Aryans' because they were allies.  It was from one of
the books that I referred to earlier, and I could find the source
if anybody wants.

Leon Gross
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV.
From: perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (perlman eric)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: ERIC PERLIMAN, WHY DO YOU IGNORE MY BET, I CHALLENGE YOU.
Summary: Elghani is dishonest, knows he lost his bet, so changes it
Date: 15 Apr 92 16:40:19 GMT
Article-I.D.: colorado.1992Apr15.164019.11080
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

In article <1992Apr14.231940.2407939@locus.com> jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes:
>
>	ERIC THE IGNORANT, I CHALLENGE YOU TO POST A  QUESTION ON
>	SOC.CULTURE.LEBANON SAYING THAT ISRAEL OCCUPIED TRIPOLI
>	AND NAHR ALBARED AND KICKED OUT THE PLO. 

John the dishonest, the one who can't read.  This changes the terms of
the bet AGAIN.  You aren't even honest enough to stick to the terms of a
challenge which you originally posted.  You also aren't honest enought
to realize that I've met the original challenge.

>	ALL OF THE LEBANESE WILL TAKE A GOOD LAUGH AT YOU.
>
>you are proving your ignorance of where Nahr ALbared is,
>by not knowing where it is, and trying to show facts about
>this camp, your've proved to us that you only lie and just a bullshitter.
>I challenge you to prove that you are not ignorant, bullshitter, and a liar
>by getting of this hook.
>
>Over and over again, you've ignored my bet.  To prove that you are
>not ignoring it as, I expect you to respond,  CC me at my direct mail
>as well as tpm.

You can't read, it's quite obvious.  Not only have I NEVER ignored your
bet, I have answered it and refuted your claim each time by posting the
evidence.  You haven't posted a single reason why anyone should believe
you, and considering your record, no one does.  

The only liar on this net is John Elghani.  Elghani, you owe me the
money.  You're just not honest enough to admit it or even to answer the
evidence I've provided.

>Again, I bet you $1000 or $5000 (or your chose of $'s) that Israel
>never reached the Tripoli nor the Baalbak Palestinian Camps, in which
>Nahr Albared is a part of.
>
>I am darn positive, and willing to challenge you to show YOUR typical
>ignorance.
>
>How about this, if I lost, I'll pay you twice what you pay me if
>you lost, is that a bet?  If not then your ignorance is as immense
>as your lies.

Unfortunately, Elghani, you already lost the bet, weeks ago; I have
already posted my evidence.  I won't sink to your level.  

Let's remember something, shall we?  Elghani has now challenged me four
different times about this.  He has CHANGED the terms of the challenge
THREE TIMES.  His challenge has been refuted EVERY TIME.  He has
presented absolutely *NO* evidence to back up his claims.  I have
presented evidence from a highly acclaimed source to back up the *FACTS*
I have presented.  

Dear reader, who do you believe?

-- 
"How sad to see/A model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport
A battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -Tim Rice,"Chess"
     Eric S. Perlman  <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> or <eric@lyra.Colorado.EDU> 
  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: arash@sunee.waterloo.edu (Arash Jahangir)
Subject: Re: PROMINENT IRANIAN BAHA'I EXECUTED
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 16:52:57 GMT

In article <1992Apr15.141837.11548@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> sethr@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (seth.r.rosenthal) writes:
>>[...Hossein's honest answers deleted]
>
>I would like to thank Hossein for answering some of the questions often
>repeated on the net, ignored at least by Anisa,
>that is:
>
>1) Could a Muslim convert to Judaism in Islamic Palestine?
>
>2) Could the child of a Muslim and a Jew be brought up Jewish
>in Islamic Palestine?
>
>3) Can a synagogue be built taller than a mosque in Islamic Palestine?
>
>....
>
>We also know the chances of restoring Judaism to the descendants
>of the Jews of Meshed who were forced converted to Islam
>in the 19th century.
>
>Thanks for being honest with us.
>
>	Seth Rosenthal
>
>Disclaimer: All opinions are my own not my employers'.
>

I am not sure what you are asking.  What do you mean by Islamic Palestine?
Are you asking a question with regards to Islam?  Or are you more concerned
social realities of Palestine?  If it is the latter, then I don't think anyone
here can answer you; you'd need to go to Palestine and ask Palestinians.  But
if you are asking about Islam, my limited knowledge of Islam tells me that:

	1)  As Hossein pointed out, once you become a Muslim, there is
	    no way out of it (this sort of makes it like the mafia; once
	    you're in, there's no way out).

	2)  Islam only allows Muslim men to marry non-muslims.  Which means
	    the father of the child in your question is always a Muslim.
	    Since Islam defines a Muslim as one whose father is a Muslim or
	    one who has accepted Islam --whichever comes first-- then the
	    child in your question is considered a Muslim.  Hence from an 
	    Islamic point of view, your question is a contridiction in terms.

	3)  The limitation of height of buildings is not just for Mosques or
	    or Senegads.  No non-muslim may own a building taller than a 
	    muslim's (I guess this means if there are muslims living in a 
	    shack, then non-muslims are not allowed to own anything but shacks)

These are not even the worst things.  Perhaps you should ask one of Islamic 
leaders/preachers about what is the punishment if a non-muslim murders a 
muslim, and what is the punishment for a muslim who murders a non-muslim.

These are of course only what I have gathered from here and there.  I am not
sure if these are based on direct Quran's words, Hadith, or just Islamic 
traditions.  In any case I don't think it makes much of a difference where and
why they originated; they are part of Islam as it exist now.  If anyone on this
net knows otherwise (Zafar, Seyed, anyone ?) I would apreciate it if they say
so along with their references and perhaps why or how such openions exist.

Arash
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,misc.headlines
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Iran and Iraq Clash
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1992 18:15:40 GMT

Fresh from CNN - Baghdad has announced that eight Iranian fighters bombed
targets sixty miles inside Iraq, and that one of them was shot down. The
two airmen were caught (being two, it was probably an F-4 Phantom?). Iran
has just admitted that this is true.

Time might tell if this is an isolated incident or part of a bigger
effort to get rid of Saddam (my guess it is the second).

-Danny Keren.
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: The Great Silence
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 92 23:44:51 GMT


I believe that someone put my name into the previous posting by mistake.
I have not participated in this debate.  Kindly take note.

-- 
Jake Livni
jake@bony1.bony.com
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.