HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: boylan@sltg04.ljo.dec.com (Steve Boylan)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Modest Proposal
Date: 9 Sep 92 17:01:18 GMT
Reply-To: boylan@ljohub.enet.dec.com (Steve Boylan)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


Greetings, gentyle readers.

Regarding Solveig's proposal for a scholarly journal published by the
SCA . . .  while I find the idea very appealing, and I want a charter
subscription, I fear as Aryk does that there would not be enough material
written to support a regular publication (not even quarterly!).

Solveig, you might want to consider adding alternatives to your proposal
(if such would not clutter your presentation!).  For example, propose that
the SCA provide support for printing and distribution (e. g., via the
Stock Clerk) for such scholarly works as are prepared.  The SCA could also
direct inquiries about subjects and authors to a known pool of editors.

Something that I think might be worthwhile is trying to generate
a backlog of submissions.  Is there anyone out there who has both
an extensive knowledge of a subject, and the time to write a well- 
researched monograph on that subject?  Dance?  Authentic dyes?  Guides
to recipies?

Another point which I would caution Solveig about is that I suspect
the SCA itself isn't going to do much.  I would expect the most 
enthusiastic response you'll see is "Gee, that's a great idea, go
right ahead!"  In other words, like so many other things, nothing
will happen unless YOU do it.

Now, having a series of titles containing extensive scholarly research
of different subjects from the past sounds like a very worthy goal
and a heck of a lot of fun (I tend to have very bizarre ideas about
what is "fun"!).  Want help in pursuing the idea?  How about a
co-editor?  :-)

				- - Steve
				boylan@ljohub.enet.dec.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: vnend@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (D. W. James)
Subject: Re: A non-SCA anachronism
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 21:49:09 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.143108.24503@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> bq434@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michael A. Chance) writes:
)In a previous article, Kwellend-Njal wrote:
)[amusing anecdote about Velcro'd armour (which I'm sure isn't list
)legal) delete]
)Mikjal Annarbjorn

	Maybe. Maybe not.  Guess what they use on parachutes?   Yep, velcro.

	As far as that goes, I don't think that anyone has asked me what
holds my armor closed in a long time (if ever), and velcro would certainly
work better than some of the snaps and such I've seen used.  Not to
mention that it can be hidden under the armor (for most leather and
cloth based armors.)

	Then again, I'm thinking of 2.5 inch wide velcro, which is pretty
sticky...

Kwellend-Njal
-- 
Vnend, Lottery winner #316                 Ignorance is the mother of adventure.  
vnend@princeton.edu, vnend@pucc.bitnet, or {backbone}!princeton!nudity!vnend        
        Anonymous posting service (NO FLAMES!):vnend@ms.uky.edu                          
"If Microsoft can give up on OS/2, then perhaps there is hope for peace in         this world."
From: Beth.Appleton@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Pennsic Autocrat (was Re: Pennsic Land Allocation
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 20:31:06

 CM> And up the fee for Pennsic that many think is too high already.
While I *personally* agree that the sum for entering Pennsic is very 
 steep, there are 8K+ people this year who didn't.  Since there have 
 been many discussions about how crowded it's getting, perhaps the Law 
 of Supply and Demand should be invoked.  You know, if the demand 
 exceeds the supply, then raise the price until they balance.  That 
 would have the drawback of pushing out the poorer folks, those who 
 aren't already staggered by the current sum required.
   (end of direct reply.....begin general Pennsic maunderings from 
 far-distant non-attendee.....)
    This probably is too far removed from it's original source, as 
 I heard it from someone who wasn't directly involved:
    The folks who owned the site that was used for the Argent 
 Anniversary apparently called the Coopers, since they'd never rented 
 out their grounds for something similar.  The reply was something like 
 "Charge them mega-bucks -- they'll pay anything".  (this definitely 
 a bad paraphrase of something that was only a rumour to begin with, but 
 Still!  If they did!  The Nerve!)
    Wandering off to the topic of land allocation......
      A theoretical question was raised earlier in the land question -- 
 what of the theor. folks who only attend Pennsic, and have purchase 
 d a large tent --- which made me say "What???"  In Ansteorra, I have 
 heard for many years that camping space was dear.  Surely any regular 
 attendee of Pennsic wouldn't have purposely purchased a big tent?  
 I know, I know, I'm assuming that they're paying attention to what's 
 going on...... Personally, I was glad to see Angharad's post -- I 
 hadn't calculated the area in my head before.  I always thought I'd 
 have to borrow a dome tent to attend, but with 235 sq ft, I *could* 
 take my 8x10, and still have plenty of room -- even with a few land 
 problems.
     Gwenllian CfM

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Joint Party w/ Medieval Echo?
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 18:32:12 -0500

* Original Area: MEDIEVAL
* Original From: Emperor Simon  3B-) (1:109/120)
* Original To  : Mark Eric Stein (1:109/120)
* Original Subj: Curiosity ...

 MES> maybe we fisherfolkshould start planning _now_
 MES> for the Medieval Echo party at Pennsic XXII?

Who hath a big pavillion, or will probably be with a large enough encampment
that we shll be able to sit about a nice roaring fire?  Also, I've mentioned
unto some Rialtans the possibility of having a party together.  What say ye?

This missive shall be forwarded unto the Rialto, to see what they have to say on
the latter possibility.


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: cassie@worf.nas.nasa.gov (Cassandra L. Baldassano)
Subject: Re: Western Crown List (was Re: Inspiration)
Organization: Numerical Aerodynamic Simulation Facility NASA
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 20:52:57 GMT
Reply-To: cassie@worf.nas.nasa.gov (Cassandra L. Baldassano)

In article <1992Sep9.220538.16701@pbhya.PacBell.COM>, whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt) writes: 
|> The most authoritative figure I've heard for March Crown was 103
|> entrants and 9 more who failed armor inspection.
|> 
|> 	--Hal

Well I worked the lists table that whole day (and the night before). The final
figure was 103 fighters.

The attitude that a got from most gentles of the West was how prosperous
must our kingdom be when over 100 fighters are able to enter a Crown list.
I don't remember the exact total for June Crown past, but it was only a
little over 80. The impression I got was that the 20 or so people who did
fight in March Crown did not feel the could feasibly reign with the trip to
Oertha for Coronation or other mundane conflicts. Alas, one unfortunate
Viscount was unable to fight for his paperwork for membership did not go
through in time.

Euriol of Lothian
From: Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: MAILING LIST: siege engineering
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1992 21:54:18 -0500

Sebastian (amlsmith@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Andrew Smith)) writeth:

 AS>    SIEGE MAILING LIST
 AS>      (Plan, hopes and dreams....)

Let me take the opportunity to point out to Fidonetters that it is available
here as the SIEGE echo, absorbed the same way as Bardic and Heralds.


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: sussman@socrates.umd.edu (Jeff Sussman)
Subject: Re: Iron chicken 
Organization: University of Maryland University College
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 17:52:35 GMT

In article <Bu8sFw.Cs@acsu.buffalo.edu> ehrlich@acsu.buffalo.edu (Karen Ehrlich) writes:
>>
>>"Iron chicken" is a defencive stance where the sword hand is above the head(tip
>>down crossing the top of the shield) to protect the head.
>>
>>otto
>
>	Interesting.  If I've correctly interpreted your description of the
>stance, I believe it is usually known in these parts as a "hanging guard"
>(presumably because the sword hangs, tip down, from the hand).  Why chicken?
>Is the hilt of the sword thought to resemble a chicken's comb?

In Atlantia, the word chicken is used as a term of mild derision.  The "iron 
chicken" is applied to the stance where the sword is braced, or almost braced,
against the helm or shield.  Usually this is done with the sword shoulder
forward of the sword side hip.  Leads to some fast center head shots but lousy
leg blows and deep shots.

We have a lot of sword blocking but only the very static crunched in stance
described above is referred to as the iron chicken.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: sussman@socrates.umd.edu (Jeff Sussman)
Subject: Re: Town Battle at the War
Organization: University of Maryland University College
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 19:29:36 GMT

>>The marshals most important defense is identification.  Putting armor on the
>>marshals will mean that a given blow will hurt less but that they will get
>>hit much more often.
>
>I would rather get dinged on a helmet all day than take a rattan stick in my
>face once.
>
>Is that weird?
>
>Aryk

It's certainly true that if we put the marshals in full armor they will only 
very rarely get injured.  Less often than the fighters.  But if we put the
marshals in full armor they will be less able to do their jobs.  It may be that
for scenarios like the town battle, which requires that the marshals be in
continuing contact with the combatants, the marshals should be in full armor.

I'd hate to go to all the trouble of getting in all my armor and not be able
to hit back.  Is that weird?

Richard Fitzgilbert			Jeff Sussman
Storvik					Silver Spring
Atlantia				Maryland

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Crusades against Pagans (was Re: Arrow number Two ...)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 19:17:01 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!

I've said all that I have to say on the subject of pentacles in SCA
heraldry.  I would like to suggest that someone who has no acquaintance
with the Society is in a very poor position to analyze and criticize
details of its operation.  I'm not saying that newcomers should "shut up
and learn how to do it right", but I do believe that a new arrival in any
organization should try to learn everything relevent before he suggests
changes.

I'd also like to correct an error in historical fact.  Hal wrote:

> A small point . . .  I think you will find, on examining the
> historical record, that 'pagans' were not suppressed by Crusades...

A couple other people made the same comment; it is inaccurate.  There was
at least one Crusade against "pagans" (as opposed to Crusades against
heretics or Crusades against Muslims): The Lithuanian Crusade of the
Teutonic Knights.  It was a particularly brutal one, too.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: rday@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Robert E Day)
Subject: Re: Pennsic Land Allocation
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 14:11:46 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.203750.29362@odin.corp.sgi.com> lindal@goddess.asd.sgi.com
 (Linda Levy) writes:
>|> of readily available income. So I stood up and suggested a head
>|> tax on event attendance. 1$ per person, per event they attend.
>
>|> Apparantly corpora forbids a kingdom to "tax" for revenue.
>
>Again, an interesting interKingdom change. In the West THE ONLY SOURCE of
>income for the Kingdom is from exactly that.. extra fees charged at the
> gate for Kingdom events.  (maybe thats the difference?  Were you
>talking about extra fees at ALL events, no matter how small?)

Is this "extra fee" mandated by the kingdom, or is it tacked on be the local
group and sent to the kingdom as a donation?
-- 
If the price that I must pay to obtain my *  Robert E. Day/Syr Otto von    *
freedom, is to acknowledge that the Gov-  *  Schwartzkatz, Shire Mugmort   *
ernmet was granted the power to infringe  *  Barony Middle Marches,        *
on them, then I am not free. Paul Anderson*  Middle Kingdom                *
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: An Tir Crown Tourney
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 17:27:55 GMT

Mordecai asks the leading question:
        Does anyone have some other Bad Weather Crown horror
  stories?

Well, I wasn't there, but I understand the first ever Crown Tourney
for the foundation of Trimaris was cancelled by a beach-front
hurricane.  I sure hope someone who was there can repeat the
entertaining stories I heard while I lived in Trimaris (hint hint).

	Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: stp@controls.ccd.harris.com (Stephen T. Pierce)
Subject: Re: An Tir Crown Tourney
Originator: stp@rs2
Organization: Harris Controls
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 16:19:43 GMT


Trimaris' first Coronation became "CORONOTHING" due to Hurricane Elena :-)
And we had a Crown Tourney postponed due to encephalitis epidemic about a year
ago.

Stephen Greyhawkes
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: bnostran@ds5000.DAC.Northeastern.edu (Barbara Nostrand)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Colored tape
Date: 10 Sep 92 09:03:15 GMT
Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA

Nobles!

Master Arval asks about the use of coloured tape in the war.  I fear
that this really is an artifact of U.S. Army war games all the
way down to the colours chosen.  Now I can find instances of liveried
retainers in 16th century Japanese battles but generally that was
the unit level.  Japanese kamon were not unique but when used for
banners were sometimes differentiated by tincture.  Regardless, the
Japanese solved the problem by "nanori" which was the recitation of
the name of the combattant.  I do not believe that this is a unique
practice.  You can find parallels in Amerind warfare and possibly
even the symbolic battles of higher primates which frequently
invovled ritual challenges.  

In the West, we have a tradition of challenges to single combat
issued by champions.  The current conduct of the war discourages
this and thus is probably counter-productive.

If coloured tape were eliminated then we would have:

	1) People killing people on their own side (very period --
	   and the problem persists even in modern warfare.)
	2) Reliance on verbal exchanges to establish identity.
	   This persisted even in WW-II.
	3) Reliance on banners

In general it would be a much better recreation.

					Your Humble Servant
					Solveig Throndardottir
					Totally Ignorant

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra)
Subject: Re: Pennsic Land Allocation
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 18:49:17 GMT

In article <1992Sep2.152657.29088@progress.com> schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei) writes:
>Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson) writes:
>                             (A notebook PC at Troll could work wonders, both for
>  this and other applications!  I *heard* that one WAS used at XXI but I didn't
>  see it; anybody know for sure, and if so, what for?)
>
>There may have been others, but Herald's Point used one for organizing the
>three daily cries.  I presume a computer of some sort was used to write
>the Pennsic Daily Tidings.  At Herald's Point, we intended to use a
>desktop, but it refused to boot.

We used computers at Troll lats year and this year. This year we were able
to install a small LAN (yes, Pennsic gets networked), and it worked quite
well. We were able to get well over fifty percent of the 8k+ waivers in the
database, which was then instrumental in looking up where people were camped
for purposes of security and such (ie. the fellow who had to call his seargent,
some of the folks whose cars were improperly parked, etc.) The data compiled
from this will be used next year to facilitate the entry of the waivers. If
you were at PWXXI, then all that will be needed will be use an update feature
and last year's record of you will be automatically input. This will cut down
the number of people who will have to volunteer for data entry.

BTW, I wish to take this time to thank all the people who helped us with
data entry, backups, and other sundry help. Your efforts were greatly
appreciated and we are grateful that you took time from your vacation to
help us. I believe we set a standard this year (I know it gained the Cooper's
seal of approval), and I hope that whoever chooses to be Datamage at PWXXII
will use what we've done as a guide. Nothing's perfect, and I know our setup
can be improved upon, but I feel we've made a tremendous start. Thanks also
to Rhea and Rufus and the Merchocrat staff for putting us in your trailer.
The airconditioning was a boon as was being closed off from the dust and
rain. I hope we weren't too much of a burden on you. Thanks to Epsilon for
writing an excellent database. This year we need to get you to Paradox. Let
me know if I can help in that.

>	Tibor (as if anyone *really* cared)

But Tibor, we *do* care. Really.

In service,

Corun

-- 
===========================================================================
    Corun MacAnndra     |      But what if this hadn't been
  Dark Horde by birth   |        a rhetorical question?
    Moritu by choice    |                            C. Nelson
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright)
Subject: Re: Sitting on the fence (was Re: Pentacles/Consorts)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 16:13:29 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

Ciaran Benson writes:

>  If the latter (opposite sex), then there still is discrimination if
>only in that a MOTOS may choose their SO as their consort, while
>a MOTSS has to pick someone they can get along with while their SO
>sits in the sidelines.  This is not playing nice, folks.

>  The idea of defending this kind of social setting -- indeed,
>institutionalizing it through your incorporation, really doesn't
>sound like much fun for a fair number of your members.

>  I sincerely doubt that I'd have much fun in such a setting, especially
>since I've gotten fairly used to communities where people participate
>based on their abilities and desire, rather than their gender.

I doubt that very much.

When your local community theater group performs Hamlet, if a
gay male gets to play the lead, does that mean his male lover
gets the opportunity to play Ophelia?

No?  Why not?  There is discrimination if only in that a MOTOS
may have his SO audition for Ophelia, while a MOTSS has to
perform with an actress he can get along with while his SO
sits in the audience.  That's not playing nice, guy.  I assume,
of course, that gay males have all boycotted your local theater
group as a result.  No?

Do you ever watch television, or movies, or do you believe
all those parts are cast solely "on their abilities and desire,
rather than their gender?"  


>  Oh, sure, Christians can't wear pentacles and MOTOS's can't choose
>a same-sex cohort either -- but the limitation on them is meaningless since
>doing these things is not a part of their definition of themselves.

The SCA is, or at least tries to be, a historical recreation group.
Note the word historical.  Now, if I were to join a group that recreated
a fantasy novel set in a world that was ruled by homosexual monarchs
and their same-sex consorts, I would expect to have two options -- Either
never become King or accept the fiction of a gay persona and rule as King
with a consort of the same sex.  In fact, the SCA does not even demand
that much.  The King (or Queen) can maintain a gay persona, if he chooses.
All he is required to do is enter into a "marriage of convenience" -- 
just as was done in history.  What you are, in effect, saying is that
no group has the right to recreate history rather than fantasy ("the
way it should have been").  Or to say that only females can play the
female roles in a play.  This is tolerance only in the Orwellian sense.

-- Nicholas van Leyden
From: rancke@diku.dk (Hans Rancke-Madsen)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: History vs. dreams
Date: 15 Sep 92 16:29:01 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen

>Here is what Hans said, which pushed a bit of a button:

>     I've been browsing on the
>     Rialto for the year and more we've recieved it here in Denmark, and I've
>     been saddened to note the vigour of the historical reenactment movement.

>And I complained that he ought to leave historical re-enactors alone:

Ah! Yes, on rereading I must admit that my words were ambiguous.

>And now it dawns on Nusbacher.  Hans wasn't complaining about re-enactors
>in general, he was complaining about people within the SCA who seem to
>be re-enactors by inclination, and Scadians by membership.  He was lamenting
>the vigour of the historical re-enacment movement _within_the_SCA.  Now
>I get it!

Exactly.

>Which causes me to wonder whether you've actually been to an SCA event.

Sadly, no. The only knowledge I have of the SCA derives from the afore-
mentioned "Amra" articles and from browsing on the Rialto.

>And now it comes down to this.  I said:

>>>There is no call for strictures on re-enactors.  They are not a threat to
>>>the SCA.

>>And my impression that some re-enactors calls for strictures on "the other
>>types" is wrong? That's good, but you should be aware that one can get
>>that impression from reading what's posted here.

>And here it is:  People who think that the SCA is all about history often
>think that the rest of the Scadians ought to appreciate this, mostly be-
>cause the SCA says that it's all about history.  The historical re-creation
>wing within the SCA frequently lobbies for increased authenticity in the
>common institutions of the SCA, and many from that wing are convinced that
>all of the SCA ought to pay more attention to history.

>And it is this tendency that Hans was lamenting, rather than the development
>of the hobby of re-creating the Middle Ages outside the SCA.

>I've got it now.

You've got it exactly.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
------------
"I know there are some people in the world who do not tolerate their
fellow human beings, and I just can't _stand_ people like that!"
                                (after Tom Lehrer)