From: nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu
Newsgroups: sci.environment
Subject: Re: Sheep in Organizations
Date: 26 Dec 92 00:33:05 GMT
Article-I.D.: acad3.1992Dec25.163305.1
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks

In article <58020@dime.cs.umass.edu>, yodaiken@chelm.cs.umass.edu (victor yodaiken) writes:
> In article <1992Dec25.130508.1@acad3.alaska.edu> nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu writes:
>>Proplem is that some 75% of the land in Alasaka is either Federal or
>>State Government or Local Governments, of Native Corps. 
> 
> That's 75% of a whole lot of acres. But  why do you think that you have a
> right to grab land from the public or the native americans?
> 
Some of the Native Americans have also had to put up with Federal Land that no
one can use.. Bering Strait National Perserve. Many people can't even hunt
there and it is next door..

>>> You're asking for a handout. You want the general public to give you our
>>> property for your private benefit. Why the hell should we? There are
>>> millions of acres of privately held land in Alaska. Earn some money and
>>> buy some instead of trying to grab our public land.
>>
>>Yes there is some private land.. But have you ever tried to do anything with
>>much of it. Also by Alaska State Law you can't own the sub-surface rights to
>>the minerals available..
> 
> Take that up with the state of alaska. Not my problem.
> 
>>Question why does there have to be so much "Public"
>>land most is in places where you can't even get to unless you have a plane..and
>>even if you have a plane, you can't set foot on it..
> 
> Because many of us value the preservation of some wilderness on the
> north american continent, and we would like *our* public land to be used
> that way. 

Well many off don't care for your ideas of "public land" if you so much want
public land and parks, then spend some of your own money and buy land and make
them parks, maybe even give them to the Park Service.. My State is aState, even
thou the War Between the States forced the issue of weather a state can succeed
from the union. Many in Alaska are tired of a Federal Government who lives in
its own paradise and care nothing for us in the Western US/Alaska.. Alaska has
many of the same reasons for why the American Colonies decided to get out of
the British Empire.. We are tired of living in a land where people in other
states have more of a say in our politics than we do.. It is time for people in
the states to reconfirm thier rights, get rid of the IRS (not actually part of
the US Government or it is said so, how it got around the direct tax classue in
the US COnstitution). I know our views are to different, in many of the same
way we live in different ends of the US.. 
>>> 
>>> No. I mean that National Parks are for the benefit of all americans and 
>>> public property should not be given away. 
>>> 
>>Question is how did this "Public Property" come about? And why must the FED
> 
> Same way that private property came about: theft. 
> 

Okay I hope you don;t mind if I steal your private home, and land and make it a
park so maybe sometime my great grand children might actually visit it..


>>own land anyway? I wonder how money the GOV pays to upkeep/maintain FEDERAL
>>land that they don't need to maintain. Turn most or all over to the States or
>>the Public.. 
> 
> The Federal government owns land because the public gets advantages out of
> common ownership of land that it would not get out of private ownership of
> land.
> 
Why must the Government take care of alot of services that can be better taken
care of by private organizations or by smalller governemtal organizations??


>>>>When the founding fathers started our nation is was becuase of economic
>>>>reasons, they were all land owners.. Do you think they would liek it that they
>>>>did not own the land, but were only borrowing it.. Read up what feudalism is
>>>>and you find what Im talking about..
>>> 
>>> Tom Paine was not. Ever heard of him? But you should read some works by
>>> the founding fathers if you want to invoke them. For example, you might want
>>> to read Jefferson's letters to Monroe on land ownership. He explicitly
>>> dismisses the theory that ownership of land should entitle the land owner
>>> to use it up or to do with it whatever he/she pleases. Maybe Jefferson
>>> was a, god I hate to say it, *socialist*. 
>>> 
>>Did they all not earn their bread on land, also did not Tom Jefferson own
>>slaves... Maybe I should read the letters.. I try to keep an open mind.. I just
> 
> If you're going to claim that the founding fathers would have agreed with
> you, you should read some of their writings. While they were big on private
> property, they were also big on civic duties and public good.
How can you get private property when must land is locked up for
'preservation>.

>>get annoyed when to build a road, dam, or anyting to benefit the local
>>population, you have to fill out a 400+ page environmental impact statement,
>>and that drives the price of the project up thru the roof.. 
> 
> The reasons for these regulations are that before we had them we enjoyed
> many terrible and poorly planned roads dams and drainage projects that
> are now costing us lots of  money to undo. 
> 
Well some were badly planned, but why? Question is are they bewtter planed now
that the FED has its finger in the stew. Nope.. There is a point where micro
managing goes to far..

>>As I say again, do I meddle in your politics of your state? If I don't have the
>>courtesy to not meddle in the polictics of my state. And that includes all
>>lands therein.. 
> 
> Guess again. We all live in the same country, and our federally owned lands
> are not the property of just the citizens of the states where the properties
> are found.  But, go ahead, meddle in our state politics, it's a free
> country.

Okay, next time Kennedy comes up for re-election, Ill donate money for someone
other to be elected. Only difference between my early family and the Kennedies
was mine where cops and his were crooks.. 

> 
>>
>>
>>Michael Adams
>>Alias: Morgoth/Ghost Wheel 
>>nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> 
> yodaiken@chelm.cs.umass.edu

Maybe we need to start a new thread, this is getting rather long..


Michael Adams
Alias: Morgoth/Ghost Wheel 
nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu

Merry Xmass.. HAppy Hanakah. Good Quanza(sp), HAppy New Year. Merry Orthodox
Christmas.. Happy Winter Solstice (I know a little late)..