HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: forbes@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (scott.forbes)
Subject: Re: I thought "manga" was a tropical fruit
Keywords: fresh perspective
Organization: AT&T
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 01:54:01 GMT

>I don't know what a "manga" is.		-- Scott Forbes

>What's a "gaffa".				-- axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au

>A really bad name for a newsgroup.		-- Cathy Foulston


And I still don't know what a "manga" is.  So far none of the rec.arts.manga
proponents have been able to explain this term (other than the ever-popular
definition by repeated assertion, e.g. "manga is not comics").

Using the same logic:  Manga is a fruit, manga is a fruit, manga is a fruit.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: murthy@tree.egr.uh.edu (purna)
Subject: no more discussions? (was Re: SCIA: The new CFV... is it needed ?)
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 23:53:07 GMT

Hades writes
> [...stuff deleted...]
>
>     I would just like to point out for the record that ONCE THE CFV HAS
> BEEN POSTED THERE IS TO BE NO MORE DISCUSSION ON THE GROUP. The
> discussion period set by the RFD has ended with the posing of the CFV
> and so should the discussion.

i have a question about this statement.  are you telling me that even *I* (who  
is an "innocent bystander") can't have any discussions, arguments, etc. (over  
the net, of course) about any group once the CFV has come up for that group?   
this doesn't seem right to me.  or, am i not interpreting your statement  
correctly?

peace,
purna
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: brunner@kazoo.ssd.loral.com (Brian Brunner)
Subject: Re: 2nd RFD: SCIA ( Is a new CFV really needed ?)
Reply-To: brunner@kazoo.ssd.loral.com (Brian Brunner)
Organization: Space Systems/Loral
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 21:52:22 GMT

In article <1992Apr16.211348.23275@cbnewsi.cb.att.com>, 
alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia) writes:
!!> >Don't you think a proposer of the group which exists, should have some
!!> >criterion to evaluate under what circumstances a revote should be 
!!> > conducted ?
!!> 
!!> No.  And neither do most proposers/creators of a group.
!!> 
!!
!!Pardon me for my ignorance but I didn't quite understand what
!!you mean here.
!!
!!Do you mean to say that I should not go forward with the straw poll
!!to make a recommendation whether a new vote is required ?
!!
!!Alok

Absetivly, posilutly, you should drop the strawpoll.
1:You are hurting scia
	there has been a vote, which has been rejected
	there is now a vote going on which _might_ succeed.
	You cannot fix the broken vote you ran.
		you ran it, you broke it.
	You are strenuously attempting to break a vote which
		might otherwise work.
2:You are attempting to establish a dangerous precident
	asserting that only the vote taker can determine whether
		the vote-taker has been unfaithful
	inventing a minority voice control on a vote of
		no-confidence on  unethical vote-taking
		read: a minority override of a majority
		agreement (nay: concensus) that something
		is rotten in Delhi.
Since your name and scia are loudly linked by you, and since you
are conducting yourself as an incredibly dense bozo with an
acquired clue immunity syndrome (I won't blame this condition
of yours in God or your parents) the more noise you generate
the more opposition to SCIA you create. Now is the time to
fall silent.

--
HELP!! Somebody slapped a "stop payment" on my sanity check!!
brunner@kazoo.ssd.loral.com; Space Systems/Loral; Palo Alto, Calif.
Black Holes... the /dev/null of the Universe; the opinion of 65534.
From: hades@coos.dartmouth.edu (Hades)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: The rec.arts.{comics.}manga wars continue
Date: 16 Apr 92 14:56:30 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH

ersys!vchan@agchem.redwater.iol.ca (Victor Chan) writes:

>Were Manga to be combined with the rec.arts.comic group, I'm sure people 
>would either be frustrated by the amount of manga postings that they 
>might not understand or care about.  Similarily to those that just want 
>to read manga postings and nothing about  (American) comics.

    No one is trying to combine rec.arts.comics and alt.manga into one
group. In fact this is one of the few things that eveyone agrees on,
manga deserves its own group.

>Rec.arts.manga is just a way of recognizing the fact that American comics 
>are not the rule (not necessarily an exception either).  I don't really 
>follow rec.arts.comics but is there really a HIGH volume of foreign 
>comics discussion.  I don't imagine so (I COULD be wrong).  But because 
>of the growing popularity of manga, it should be given a chance to obtain 
>it's own readership and own distinct group.  Point made.

    Have you been following any of this discussion, or did you just
decide to jump in with both feet before testing the water? Don't you
realize that rec.arts.comics.manga is a completely different and
separate group from rec.arts.comics? The point that you are maiking was
made before there was any discussion on what the group should be called.
You really should try to follow a discussion before you post next time.

--
-Hades  (Brian V. Hughes)   | 
 hades@Coos.Dartmouth.Edu   | "DON'T TOUCH IT!! It's the History Eraser
 Mac Database Developer     |  Button, you fool!"  -- Ren
 Dartmouth Medical School   | 
Xref: sparky news.groups:9993 rec.music.cd:3946 rec.music.misc:13997
From: mvanmeet@ub.d.umn.edu (Michiel van Meeteren)
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.cd,rec.music.misc
Subject: Re: RFD: removal of rec.music.cd
Date: 10 Apr 92 19:04:32 GMT
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: University of Minnesota, Duluth. Information Services.

I think the best suggestion I have heard yet is moderating this newsgroup.  I
think it is a bad idea to rename this group to r.m.media, this will attract
posts that will most definitely not fit the image of this group.  IN my
opinion, the best way to go about this is draw up a new charter for this
group, have a vote on it, and moderate this group to follow that charter.
The CD part of this group would remain, and posts relating to albums not
specifically related to CD would be eliminated.  Moderating this group would
not be that big of a hassle, since it currently receives only 20 or so
articles a day, which would eventually be cut down to less that 10 a day.
Anyone else agree this format would work?  (BTW, I have nothing against the
current format, but I am just suggesting this for the people that are upset
with the way the newsgroup is goiing right now.)


-- 
(~)/~)/~)  o  /    __  | I cant figure it out, when it said <HIT ANY KEY>, 
 /  /  /  /  /_/  /__) | and I hit <SHIFT>, nothing happened.  Then I hit
/  /  (__/__/  \_/\__/ | <CAPS LOCK>, and still nothing happened!!
From: gwangung@milton.u.washington.edu (Just another theatre geek.....)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: 2nd RFD: SCIA (A violation of net guidelines)
Date: 17 Apr 92 15:46:17 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle


	Here, alok.  $20.

	Buy a clue.

-- 
Roger Tang gwangung@milton.u.washington.edu
Executive Producer Emeritus, Asian Theatre at the UW;
	The definition of having balls is a non-singer who goes karaoke singing 
with the cast of a musical revue.
From: hades@coos.dartmouth.edu (Hades)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga vs. rec.arts.comics.manga
Date: 9 Apr 92 17:23:42 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH

jkim@jingoro.Eng.Sun.COM (Jun Kim) writes:

>Now, in this light, one can see that comics and manga are two different
>points of view of the same thing.
                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    We are going to take a second and focus in on this particular
statement. If you agree that comics and manga are essentially the same
form/medium/genre, how can you not see the logic behind placing them
into the same newsgroup sub-hierarchy? Ignore for the moment all of the
perceived notions about a 4 level group somehow being less important
than a 3 level group, and tell me why they don't belong together.


--
-Hades  (Brian V. Hughes)   | Common Taxpayer Q&A: Q. If I use the 1040 how
 hades@Coos.Dartmouth.Edu   | do I indicate my preference for the Elvis stamp?
 Mac Database Developer     | A. You write THIN ELVIS or FAT ELVIS in the box
 Dartmouth Medical School   | "Spouse's Social Security #." -Dave Barry
From: duane@thismoment.EBay.Sun.COM (Duane Day)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga vs. rec.arts.comics.manga
Date: 9 Apr 92 21:50:15 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: thismoment.ebay.sun.com

In article <ku99jvINNfnj@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> jkim@jingoro.Eng.Sun.COM (Jun Kim) writes:
>In article <1992Apr9.172342.25010@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> hades@coos.dartmouth.edu (Hades) writes:
>>jkim@jingoro.Eng.Sun.COM (Jun Kim) writes:
>
>A couple of things to note are the words "different" in my previous post,
>as well as my "autos" vs "cars" analogy from one of my posts.
>
>Wouldn't net.cars.autos  sound funny?  Well, I think they do.

Yes, net.cars.autos would be pretty silly.

Even sillier would be the simultaneous existence of newsgroups named
net.cars and net.autos.

Oops, back to the analogy drawing board...  :-)

--

Hypocrisy is the vaseline |UUCP: ...!sun!EBay!thismoment!duane
of political intercourse. |INTN: duane@EBay.sun.com
   -  Billy Connolly      |USPS: 2550 Garcia Ave. M/S M3-76, Mtn. View CA 94042
Xref: sparky news.groups:9720 misc.jobs.misc:3369
From: scs@iti.org (Steve Simmons)
Subject: Re: straw poll: Alok bozo or not?
Organization: Industrial Technology Institute
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 12:29:58 GMT

This poll is an insult to clowns everywhere.
-- 
 "Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for you are crunchy and taste
  good with ketchup."  seen on a button, author unknown
Newsgroups: news.groups,comp.lsi.cad,can.vlsi
From: pas@jupiter.ic.cmc.ca (Peter Stokes)
Subject: Update: RFD: comp.sys.cadence
Organization: Canadian Microelectronics Corporation
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 16:31:49 GMT

Here is an update regarding the creation of 
comp.sys.cadence:

1. Discussion continues to be very positive.

2. If you haven't been following the discussion,
   a summary of all mail and USENET traffic 
   on the topic (1400 lines) is available 
   from me... just ask.

3. I consulted with the Usenet "group naming
   advice service" on what the newsgroup 
   should be called and the following 
   suggestions were made:

     - comp.cad.cadence
     - comp.soft-sys.cadence
     - comp.sys.cadence

   I have chosen comp.cad.cadence.  Please
   see the discussion summary for more info.
   If you disagree with this name, please
   discuss this on news.groups as we should
   all agree on a name before the vote is
   conducted.

4. Provided all goes well, I plan to conduct 
   the vote sometime near April 17.


Peter Stokes
Canadian Microelectronics Corporation
pas@jupiter.ic.cmc.ca

Newsgroups: news.groups
From: rdippold@cancun.qualcomm.com (Ron Dippold)
Subject: Re: 2nd RFD: SCIA
Organization: Qualcomm, Inc., San Diego, CA
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 00:11:29 GMT

alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia) writes:

>In article <a_rubin.703186410@dn66>, a_rubin@dsg4.dse.beckman.com (Arthur Rubin) writes:
>> 
>> C) The vote was invalid; it is considered as if it never occured.
>> 

>If we consider that the vote never occured,
>please explain to me: On what basis are the 48 % sites carrying SCIA ?

Automatic newgrouping.
-- 
Disk space - the final frontier!
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: The rec.arts.{comics.}manga wars continue
Date: 15 Apr 1992 14:10:55 GMT
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

In article <Rqe0iB2w164w@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca> ersys!vchan@agchem.redwater.iol.ca (Victor Chan) writes:
>Were Manga to be combined with the rec.arts.comic group, I'm sure people 
>would either be frustrated by the amount of manga postings that they 
>might not understand or care about.  Similarily to those that just want 
>to read manga postings and nothing about  (American) comics.

Basic fallacy alert...

Just because a group is named rec.arts.comics.foo doesn't mean that its
traffic is combined with rec.arts.comics at the reader level. The groups are
distinct, and a user can read either, both, or neither, as they choose, and
with no additional effort than any other rec.arts.foo group.
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by a .sig virus.
   "While we liked developing Windows applications, we never inhaled." --
              Philippe Kahn, in Infoworld, 13 Apr 1992
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: gberigan@cse.unl.edu (Life...)
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.bbs.misc
Organization: Ursa Minor Beta, 402-476-8047 @ 2400
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 17:42:53 GMT

tonyd@ssc60.sbwk.nj.us (Tony DeBari) writes:
>gberigan@cse.unl.edu (Life...) writes:

>>Currently there is a proposal to move alt.bbs.waffle to comp.bbs.waffle.
>>It is a seperate proposal from this one, but the course of that vote may
>>affect this proposal.  If the group fails, I'd be willing to amend the
>>charter to allow for discussion of BBS software that runs on different
>>platforms, thus allowing comp.bbs.waffle discussion.

>One small suggestion...
>
>If comp.bbs.waffle fails, c.b.misc would then become a misc group without
>a surrounding hierarchy.  I therefore suggest that if comp.bbs.waffle
>fails, the proposed comp.bbs.misc should instead be called comp.bbs.  If
>at some future time one or more subgroups are formed, comp.bbs could be
>renamed comp.bbs.misc at that time.

The timing of this proposal is set up so that we will know the results
of the comp.bbs.waffle vote before this one goes to vote.  In the short
term, the name comp.bbs would be more logical than comp.bbs.misc, but if
the topics wish to be split back out of comp.bbs, then the group will
then have to go through the tortuous rename back to .misc, amongst cries
of, "If it's not broken, don't fix it."

Also, since there is some opposition in including the topics of
alt.bbs.lists, .lists.d, and .ads, perhaps it would be better to
simultaneously propose the creation of these as seperate groups, or at
least encourage them as future splits from comp.bbs.misc.

There is the problem that .lists and .lists.d aren't being used as their
names describe.  If they are created in comp.bbs.*, I'd hope that at
least the .lists group is moderated, to keep discussion in the .d group.
Indeed, it is feasible that .ads could be absorbed into .lists.  With
moderation, ads sent could easily be absorbed into the lists.

>Tony DeBari          INET: tonyd@ssc60.sbwk.nj.us     CI$: 73117,452
>                     UUCP: ...!uunet!ssc60!tonyd      *P*: GHRW14B

I've noticed that my mention of absorption of the .cnet group into
c.b.misc is inconsistent with the posted charter.  I need more informa-
tion on C-NET.  Is it a program native to only one platform?

--
  ///   ____   \\\       | CAUTION:
  | |/ /    \ \| |       | Avoid eye contact.  In case of contact, flush
   \\_|\____/|_//        | mind for 15 minutes.  See a psychiatrist if
       \_)\\/            | irritation persists.  Not to be taken
gberigan `-' cse.unl.edu | seriously.  Keep out of sight of children.
From: pankaj@pub2.bu.edu (Pankaj Tyagi)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD:  misc.jobs.offered reorganization
Date: 16 Apr 92 04:27:52 GMT
Organization: Information Technology, Boston University, Boston, MA, USA

In article <1992Apr13.181615.16879@uunet.uu.net> root@dogear.spk.wa.us
(Bob Kirkpatrick) writes: 

..............

    This RFD supercedes the previous issue, which did not address all of the
    proposed changes.
    
    REMOVE: misc.jobs.offered
    
    CREATE: misc.jobs.entry    = positions offered to entrylevel applicants
            misc.jobs.expert   = positions offered to the experienced
            misc.jobs.recruit  = positions offered by recruitment agents
    
    NOT AFFECTED: misc.jobs.contract, misc.jobs.wanted, misc.jobs.misc
    
    Due to the increased volume of postings, and the selective nature of
    the jobs-offered postings, an expansion of the categories is needed.
    Many have expressed difficulty in locating posts which target their
    skill levels, and discussions have expressed a desire to separate
    agency (recruiter) postings from the employer-direct posts.
    
    Comments and discussion are being solicited for the standard period.
    
    Please confine discussions and comments to news.groups.

.............

I must agree as this being a better reorganisation of the
misc.jobs.offered. This will definitely decrease the search time for
a number of subscriber and will definitely have a focussed target
audience for the poster. Since misc.jobs.xyz ( not including
mis.jobs.misc ) are typically broadcast type of newsgroup with no
discussion intended (in theory) this will help decrease the "chaff"
that a reader has to go through. Similarly a poster can be assured of
having a decreased number of unrelated responses from desperate fresh
grads like me, who are tempted to reply to a posting that is clearly
not suitable for them. This will give more incentive to the hiring
managers to announce their positions on the net.



    -- 
    Bob Kirkpatrick                      "All are welcome. Come into the light."
    Dog Ear'd Systems of Spokane, WA                              --poltergeist


Pankaj
pankaj@pub2.bu.edu

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
#include std.disclaimer| pankaj@[bass/miller/labatts/molson/any beer].bu.edu
#if IDONTLIKEYUORQUOTE |"..I mean if I said that I'm the king just because some
#include local.joke    | watery tart lobbed me a scimitar, they'd put me away"
From: gwangung@milton.u.washington.edu (Just another theatre geek.....)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: rec.arts.comics.manga is anomalous and misleading.
Date: 14 Apr 92 20:05:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Apr14.200500.17240
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <kum54nINNsji@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> jkim@jingoro.Eng.Sun.COM (Jun Kim) writes:
>In article <1992Apr13.203326.9375@daimi.aau.dk> rorschak@daimi.aau.dk (Jesper Lauridsen) writes:
>>  If I was to buy some mange in this town (placed in non-english country)
>>I would go down to shop called "comics".
>Personally speaking, I can't find my manga outside of Japanese bookstores.

	Considering where you are, you're not looking very hard.



-- 
Roger Tang gwangung@milton.u.washington.edu
Executive Producer Emeritus, Asian Theatre at the UW;
	The definition of having balls is a non-singer who goes karaoke singing 
with the cast of a musical revue.
From: 665instr@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (CS 665 Lab GTA)
Newsgroups: ks.misc
Subject: Re: Kansas Stuff
Date: 13 Apr 92 14:16:48 CDT
Organization: Computer Science

> very wimpy Pascal INTERPRETER for the Macintoshes.  The only language that

I think they've moved to a Pascal COMPILER now 8-)
From: 2frtwoody@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (Jesse Slicer)
Newsgroups: ks.misc
Subject: Re: Kansas Stuff
Date: 14 Apr 92 10:04:24 CDT
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

> 
> I think they've moved to a Pascal COMPILER now 8-)
> 
Now THERE is a step into the late 1980's for ya!  Perhaps maybe now they have
it save in standard ASCII format......  Now I'm railing on them too much.  665
Lab GTA, eh?  Looks like I may run into you next semester then.
-- 

Jesse C. Slicer
University of Kansas Computer Science
Internet: 2frtwoody@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Bitnet: 2frtwoody@bitnet.ukanvax

"A mind is a wonderful thing to waste!"
Newsgroups: ks.misc
Subject: Re: Kansas Stuff
From: tar@math.ksu.edu (Tim Ramsey)
Date: 14 Apr 1992 13:21:19 -0500
 <1992Apr11.153613.39241@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> <1992Apr13.141648.39309@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> <sd6drINNak3@hilbert.math.ksu.edu>
Organization: Dept. of Mathematics, Kansas State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: hilbert.math.ksu.edu

jxh@math.ksu.edu (James C. Hu) writes:

>course while I was there: CS 400.  It was the VAX assembler course
>taught on the VM, and I remember that I had to brush up on my Pascal.

Wow, what a concept: VAX assembler, only it's done on a VM box with
Pascal.  Cool, dood.

Next semester I hear they're offering Cray Ada done on a Timex-Sinclair
1000 in BASIC.
Newsgroups: ks.misc
Subject: Re: Kansas Stuff
From: tar@math.ksu.edu (Tim Ramsey)
Date: 9 Apr 1992 02:10:58 -0500
Organization: Dept. of Mathematics, Kansas State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: hilbert.math.ksu.edu

jxh@math.ksu.edu (James C. Hu) writes:

>Let's talk about KU-Manhattan.  Why does KU want to usurp K-State's
>academic computing?  Well, I guess that's a pretty defensive topic.
>We'll drop that one too.

Actually, that's administrative computing (student records, purchasing,
payroll, etc.).  You KU'ers might want to ask your local suits why they
seem so willing to spend a lot of KU money so KSU can move its MVS and
VM systems to KU's Amdahl.

Oh, hadn't you heard of this plan?  The suits here haven't exactly
been broadcasting it to the world either.

[ speaking only for myself, of course ]
Newsgroups: ks.misc
Subject: Re: Kansas Stuff
From: dscott@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (Dan Scott)
Date: 9 Apr 1992 13:07:03 -0500
Organization: Kansas State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: matt.ksu.ksu.edu

In article <s0qm2INN3am@hilbert.math.ksu.edu> tar@math.ksu.edu (Tim Ramsey) writes:
>jxh@math.ksu.edu (James C. Hu) writes:
>
>>Let's talk about KU-Manhattan.  Why does KU want to usurp K-State's
>>academic computing?  Well, I guess that's a pretty defensive topic.
>>We'll drop that one too.
>
>Actually, that's administrative computing (student records, purchasing,
>payroll, etc.).  [...]

  But not strictly administrative computing.  The library system is
academic computing but will be moving to KU if such a thing happens.
Any academic computing on the mainframe would move or migrate to other
platforms.  Expect a surge in the number of Unix systems if the move
takes place.

>Oh, hadn't you heard of this plan?  The suits here haven't exactly
>been broadcasting it to the world either.

  I've heard to expect more information in July.  We have already met
with Walentine to detail our computing needs.  I still get the impression 
that the decision is going to be based on costs and not how well it
meets the users needs.  Hopefully they will look at the users needs
before making a final decision if the dollar figure looks good.

-- 
Dan Scott : NOTIS Tech 1 : dscott@{matt.ksu.edu|ksuvm.{ksu.edu|bitnet}}
Farrell Library, Kansas State University, Manhattan, KS 66502 - 913.532.7461
Newsgroups: ks.misc
Subject: Re: Kansas Stuff
From: bewhite@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (The Cleaner)
Date: 9 Apr 1992 13:01:01 -0500
Organization: Kansas State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: matt.ksu.ksu.edu

tar@math.ksu.edu (Tim Ramsey) writes:

>jxh@math.ksu.edu (James C. Hu) writes:

>>Let's talk about KU-Manhattan.  Why does KU want to usurp K-State's
>>academic computing?  Well, I guess that's a pretty defensive topic.
>>We'll drop that one too.

>Actually, that's administrative computing (student records, purchasing,
>payroll, etc.).  You KU'ers might want to ask your local suits why they
>seem so willing to spend a lot of KU money so KSU can move its MVS and
>VM systems to KU's Amdahl.

  Actually, accourding to some sources I interviewed for a paper on this,
ALL of the functions currently on our IBM mf will be moved including 
academic and administrative stuff.  Of course, insert your standard
disclaimer here as all this is totally unofficial and still in the
planning stages.  Nobody really knows whats going to happen, if anything.
-- 
  Bruce White(bewhite@matt.ksu.ksu.edu)
  "I live like I type - Fast, and with a lot of mistakes"