From: lmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Laurie Mann)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: SF fans show libertarian inclination
Date: 4 Jan 1993 13:41:16 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer Inc, Marlboro MA
Distribution: world
Reply-To: lmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: ansible.pubs.stratus.com

Chris Croughton writes
>> lmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com writes:
>>I think that depends on the fen.  I can't tell you the number of fen who
>>voted in favor of Bill Clinton, a man who could not be considered a
>>libertarian by any stretch of the imagination.
>That doesn't mean that the voters aren't libertarians, though - they may
>have considered him the least bad choice...

That's a fair point.  However, if you are a serious libertarian, I don't
see how you could have voted for Clinton.

>>Many fen don't like guns particularly.  While most support the right to
>>own guns, I don't think guns are a religious element among many fen
>>EXCEPT those who already have a strongly libertarian bent.
>Permission to disagree here.  I don't think guns are a 'religious'
>element among a noticable number of fen at all.  OK, one or two...  But
>I get the impression that those fen who do own guns are reasonably
>responsible, and own them for some purpose (i.e. not just because they
>like guns per se).  I have no statistics on this, however - does anyone?

I don't have statistics either.  My take is that most fans don't like and don't  
have guns.  The general perception of the libertarian, particularly if you read  
USENET, is that gun ownership is a religious point among libertarians, and  
those of us who believe in reasonable gun control are "anti-libertarian."  I  
agree with you that the gun-owning fen I have met have tended to be reasonable  
responsible about their guns.

>>To the amazement of many fen, there are anti-abortion libertarians.  While
>>there are certainly anti-abortion fen, most prefer to keep the government's
>>laws out of the bedroom and hospital.  So, if that makes us libertarians, I
>>think it's a pretty narrow view.
>To the amazement of many *libertarians*, as well!  I don't understand
>the bit about 'a pretty narrow view' - could you explain this sentence?
>(Request, not flame - I may well agree with you, but I'm not sure what
>you're meaning).  Incidentally, I'm on the anti-abortion side (but not
>fanatical - I do accept that there are valid reasons on both sides, and
>since I'm not a woman I don't consider that my opinions are very
>relevant unless it affects someone close to me).

I don't want to get into a flame on an issue we will never ever agree upon.
It's a waste of bandwidth.  Suffice to say that any group which promotes itself  
as being against government regulation, that has in its leadership people who  
oppose a woman's right to choose, aren't applying their principles very evenly.

>>In short, there are many vocal minorities in fandom.  One of the most vocal
>>minorities are the libertarians.  But, to many of us, libertarians seem
>>to be represented by gun zealots, and we'd just as soon avoid them, thanks
>>very much.
>No, libertarians are _freedom_of_choice_ zealots - guns are just an area
>that the public (and especially the media) like to pick on.  And it's
>easy in debates to get emotions running high on both sides.

Again, I'm not quoting the media here when I'm talking about the "pro-gun  
zealots," I'm remembering what I've seen on USENET.  To those of us who are  
unenthrusiastic about guns, many libertarians seem to believe that Somalia is a  
"better" place than America because anyone that wanted a gun (before about  
December 10) HAD as big a gun as they could find.  To the rest of us, Somalia  
looks like anarchy.

>>*  In Germany they first came for the Communists, and I didn't speak *
>>*  because I wasn't a Communist.  Then they came for the Jews, and I *
>>*  didn't speak because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade *
>>* unionists, and I didn't speak because I wasn't a trade unionist... *
>>*Then they came for me--and by that time no one was left to speak up.*
>>*  Rev. Martin Niemoeller     [Why to March on Washington in April]  *
>
>I assume this is a book - I've seen this quote before.  Any details?

Rev. Martin Niemoeller was a Lutheran pastor in Germany during the reign of the  
Nazis.  (BTW, he DID survive the war---there's an "urban legend" that the Nazis  
killed him, but I don't think he died until the '70s.)  The quote may have  
appeared in a book, but it was about real life.  I am VERY upset by the amount  
of legal gay-bashing that's been going on lately, and I'm sick of it.  At the  
end of April, there's going to be a big march on Washington to support gay  
rights.  I'm going because I think the more people that openly oppose  
homophobia in society, the more likely it is we can erradicate it in our  
lifetimes.
Xref: sparky rec.arts.sf.misc:3635 alt.fandom.cons:449 rec.arts.sf.fandom:1384