HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ghee@vision.larc.nasa.gov (Terry A. Ghee)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Multiplying in the Backcountry (kids/population)
Date: 19 Nov 1992 18:59:10 GMT
Organization: NASA Langley Research Center, Hampton, VA  USA
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: vision.larc.nasa.gov

Greg Jahn writes:

  It always amazes me how stubbornly us more digit-head oriented folks
  hold onto our theories, suppositions and methodoligies in spite of the
  obvious.  Science is a religion, no way around it. It sure seems to me
  that everywhere I've gone there are more people now than before, 
  I've certainly seen very distintive changes here, both in town AND
  in the backcountry ... in particular the biggest impact seems to be on
  the edge of the backcountry, where recently new locals and folks from other 
  states can take their babies camping.  More rules, more rules enforced, less
  options ... the FACT is population HAS profoundly affected the entry
  points to roadless backcountry here in Idaho.  So, who cares what the
  statistics and population models say?  LOOK AROUND!

I grew up in the northeast (upstate New York), and if anything the population
up there has gone down (at least in the county I grew up).  Also I was travelling
in Iowa last April and I heard on the local radio that Iowa's population was migrating 
to other states.  The inner cities are also losing a sizable population to the
suburbs.  What does this all mean?  Should I perceive that the population is 
decreasing every where?  Certainly not because I would be basing my facts on 
insufficient data.  I can not base the population trends on the United States
on how much a county in Colorado or New York has grown or shrunk.  I need the
total picture.  I also feel uneasy about expousing the view that having less
or no children would solve the back country's problems.  Life is not that simple.  I 
personally am not expousing that everyone should have more children or less.  

Just a question, has the increase in the use of the back country been at the same
rate as the increase in the U.S. population?  If this increase in usage is greater
than the increase in U.S. population what do we do and does the belief we have too
many people having large families a valid concern?  Do we solve the problem by making
everyone move back to the cities and not visit the woods except on special occasions?
Do we raise the admission to NP and NF so high that only the rich can go there?  If
that happens can we expect the rest of the population to fund NP and NF (just for the
record, I personally would like to see the usage fees go up to a more reasonable admission
price).
Lest I be misunderstood, I am not intending to flame anyone (and if I have offended
I extend my apologies), I just think the issue of back country overuse is very
complicated and that people with large families are not necessarily the problem.
I agree that the third world countries have an overpopulation to what they can
handle but I'm not sure if the U.S. "problem" is due to population demographical changes 
or overpopulation.  I do know that I don't have the answers (and probably never will).

Terry Ghee
From: greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM (...the printer guy <alas..sigh>)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Warm clothing while hiking
Date: 16 Nov 1992 23:38:26 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: antizen.ebay.sun.com

In article 1274@ole.cdac.com, ssave@ole.cdac.com (The Devil Reincarnate) writes:
>  
>  I need some recommendations for clothing while hiking in cool/cold/chilly 
> weather.  I find that I warm up quite a bit soon after I start walking and
> it becomes uncomfortable to keep the same clothes on. On the other hand, the
> moment I stop for a break, within 10 min or so, I get chilled to the bone!
> 
>  What do you wear when it gets cold?  Also, wearing all this bulky layering
> clothing is not comfortable, and restricts movement. What happens if it is
> raining? This is the Pacific NW, and everything you read about the rains
> here is true :-)
> 
>  Anyone who has suggestions on what to wear, and what works for them, please
> tell me?
> 
> -Shailendra
> ssave@ole.cdac.com




Actually, I have the same problem. I've been eye-balling the new Patagonia
Anoraks which have zip-openable sides for big-time ventilation.

Has anyone tried these yet? They cost a damn fortune.....

Greg





Xref: sparky rec.backcountry:9170 misc.emerg-services:4857
From: greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry,misc.emerg-services
Subject: Re: FIRST-AIDS KITS
Date: 24 Nov 1992 01:31:11 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: antizen.ebay.sun.com

In article 29306@networx.com, bonn@networx.com (David Bonn) writes:
> greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM wrote:
> : Realistically, most major-league medical emergencies cannot be effectively
> : treated in a wilderness situations.  The best you can realistically hope for
> : is to make sure no additional damage is done while waiting for rescue.
> : Something to think about when you're heading to some secret place.
> : 
> : Again, this depends on your level of training and commitment....
> :  
> I suppose it depends on your idea of "major-league medical emergency" and
> "effective treatment."
> 
> Serious blood loss can't be effectively treated outside of the hospital (I have
> never seen anyone carrying whole blood or even plasma, much less a MAST suit).
> This means that quite plausible injuries like femur fractures, pelvic
> fractures, ectopic pregnancies, serious burns, and intra-abdominal bleeding
> could well be fatal, no matter how skilled and dedicated the people treating
> the patient happen to be.
 
>  <text deleted>
 
>  David Bonn
>  bonn@networx.com
 

Excellent post David. 

I'm currently being treated for asthma by a homeopathic ND. While it's
still new to me, the more I learn about homeopathy the more I'm seeing
wilderness medicine alternatives come to light.

I also believe the Earthbound class will be teaching a module on homeopathy.

While server blood loss pretty much much be treated with fluid replacement,
there evidently is homeopathic cure for shock, trauma and other first aid
'lost causes' that provide alternatives for backcountry travelers.

There's something that can be done for, well, not everything, but alot more
than what is being taught in the run-of-the-mill first aid courses.

Hey, that brings to mind a Rescue 911 episode where an EMT stabilized a 
woman who had become unconscious while parashooting and was seriously 
injured upon landing. He didn't have MAST pants, but used full leg inflatable
splints instead. MD's at the trauma center where she was treated claimed
(at least so they said) that he had slowed down the shock process to a degree
to where survival was a possibility.

Thanks for the post, probably should be on misc.emerg-services. Maybe I'll
cross post.

Greg



Newsgroups: rec.backcountry,sci.environment,talk.environment,alt.wolves
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: Alaska to shoot hundreds of wolves from airplanes
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
	<1992Nov20.193758.7601@meteor.wisc.edu> <24123@hacgate.SCG.HAC.COM>
Date: 21 Nov 92 10:14:45

George Tucker posts:

     It's for the benefit of guides, who hire lobbyists and
     grease palms.  They couldn't care less about the "benefit of
     man", what tourists will see, or the health of the animals.

Smite the foe.  Can't we get a few guides to post too?
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
From: jmcc@ticipa.pac.sc.ti.com (John McCollum)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Abbey bashing.
Date: 16 Nov 92 15:11:20 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Texas Instruments

In article <1992Nov13.184234.22193@news.arc.nasa.gov> watson@pioneer.arc.nasa.gov (John S. Watson - FSC) writes:
>
>I'm really just kind of poking you to give me some suggestions
>for reading, now that winter has closed most of my backcountry haunts.
>
  Several years ago, I started clipping all reading references from 
rec.backcountry to start my own reading file.  It now has about 60
authors and probably over 200 titles.

  It is yours for the asking, probably a little long for posting.

Cheers,
John McCollum
jmcc@ticipa.mtc.ti.com
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: distef@carson.u.washington.edu (Sandra Distefano)
Subject: Re: Long-term cave exploration - waste disposal?
Organization: University of Washington
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 20:13:07 GMT

wmartin@STL-06SIMA.ARMY.MIL (Will Martin) writes:

>But one aspect was completely avoided, and I wonder what people on this
>group can tell me about it: waste disposal during this long-term
>exploration. It's not like wilderness -- you can't dig a hole somewhere
>for a latrine, or find a "safe" spot to urinate. I would at first
>assume they had some sort of chemical toilet facility, like astronaut
>waste bags or something, to use and then pack out all the waste, but
>the show DID address the difficulty of getting their backpacks through
>the winding maze of passageways on the way in, and it sure seemed to me
>that they just simply could not pack out all the waste water generated
>by this multi-person team over a week-plus period. (They didn't have to
>pack *in* water, since they could use the cave water, so they'd have a
>vast amount greater weight to pack *out* if they had to bring out all
>the waste water.) [I wouldn't think they'd even have containers to hold
>it all!]

>So how did they manage?

National Geographic, March 1991 has an article on the Lechuguilla 
cave in New Mexico.  On page 54 it says:

"We strive to keep it pristine and leave nothing behind -- that 
means nothing.  Plastic bags serve as toilets, which we then wrap in
foil and pack out."

I assume that means both urine and feces, but if someone knows
different I'd be interested to hear.

Sandra
distef@u.washington.edu


Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: lyford@amy3.stanford.edu (Julian Karl Wright)
Subject: hiking clubs??
Keywords: hiking clubs bay area
Organization: DSO, Stanford University
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 92 01:11:57 GMT

I am looking for recommendations of a hiking club in the bay area to join.  
I'm a Stanford student and there doesn't seem to be any clubs on campus.
I'd like to go for a weekend trip ,say ,once a month ,with no serious  
climbing, and with some people in my age group (20's).
Any ideas??

Julian
From: hklrs@usho94.hou281.chevron.com (Kevin Larson)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: uncontrolable tongues!!
Date: 18 Nov 92 14:38:17 GMT
Organization: Chevron

>DOES ANYONE HAVE ANY SOLUTIONS ON HOW TO KEEP THE TONGUES OF MY BOOTS IN THE 
>CENTER, INSTEAD OF SLIPPING OFF TO THE SIDE.  THERE ISN'T A HOLE IN THE TONGUE
>TO PUT THE LACES THROUGH.  

  A friend of mine keeps an awl and thread in his pack ( for emergency
   repairs of packs, etc ). He got fed up with the same problem,
   sat down one evening and stitched one side of the tongue to 
   the boot. It only took a stitch or two. The tongue no longer slides
   away and the stitches are not noticeable. 

-- 
KevinLarson( void ) { while( @chevron ) 
                     {  org  ( CPTC/IT/WorksystemsSupport ); 
                        email( hklrs@usho94.hou281.chevron.com );
                        voice( 713.596.2563 ); } }
From: cvakgaaq@vmsb.is.csupomona.edu
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: The overpopulation problem. NOT!
Date: 20 Nov 92 20:19:50 GMT
 <1992Nov18.123756.1@vmsb.is.csupomona.edu> <Nov18.222851.46984@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>
Organization: California State Polytechnic University, Pomona
Nntp-Posting-User: cvakgaaq

> 
>>Can I please just exist?
> 
> Sure.  There is a 300 sq ft hovel reserved for you in downtown Tokyo.
> 
> -- 
> 
> -Wayne Trzyna
>  trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU


	Racist. The Japanese are some of the finest people on Earth and the
most efficient; they will inherit the mantle of Western Civilization as America
reverts to tribalism, mysticism, and self-denigration.

-Austin
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry,sci.environment,talk.environment,alt.wolves
From: premeau@cae.wisc.edu (Rodger Edward Premeau)
Subject: Re: Alaska to shoot hundreds of wolves from airplanes
Organization: U of Wisconsin-Madison College of Engineering
Date: 20 Nov 92 16:18:28 CST

In article <JMC.92Nov20135129@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU writes:
>I think public opinion is unbalanced in the matter of caribou vs. wolves.
>What is needed is a movie Dances with Caribou or a remake of Bambi
>with Bambi as a caribou whose mother is killed by a wolf.

     I think that 40,000 Caribou need a whole lot less protection than 
the remaining 7,000 wolves.  Besides, as far as I know, no where in their
natural habitat are Caribou endangered or extinct.  I would like to here the
same claim made of wolves.  However, it's way too late for that.  Also, I think at least 90% of the population would consider wolves to be much prettier than
Caribou.
     A second point to remember is, that they will just be killing these wolves, so that there are more Caribou to kill.  I doubt that the environment can even
support the added populations of Caribou.  This is probally going to blow up in
their face, as the biggest case of environmental mismanagement in the 20th 
century.  I think it would be in both species best interests to leave things
alone.  The only thing man has ever brought to this country's natural resources
is death and destruction!  I say leave it alone!

Premeau@cae.wisc.edu
In wilderness is the preservation of the world -Therou
From: fuzzy@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Fuzzy)
Subject: More jerky stuff
Organization: Purdue University
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 03:12:28 GMT

Atlast, the long awaited continuation to the jerky summary.  It seems
that a few people couldn't wait for the rest of the recepies (sp?) and
got a bit...over-anxious...so...here's the rest of what i have...again,
many thanks to Bob  for sending 'em to me...

Curried Jerky 
1 tsp salt               1-1/2 tsp curry powder
1/4 tsp pepper           1/2 tsp garlic powder
1/8 tsp cinnamon         1 tsp ground ginger
1/16 tsp ground cloves   1/8 tsp ground cumin

Frontier Jerky
1 tsp salt               2 tbs liquid smoke
1/4 tsp pepper           1 tsp garlic powder
2 tbs Worcestershire sauce

Great Jerky
3/4 tsp salt              2 tbs soy sauce
1/4 tsp cracked pepper    1 tbs Worcestershire sauce
1 tbs brown sugar         1 clove crushed garlic

Teriyaki Jerky
1/2 tsp salt              1/4 cup soy sauce
1/8 tsp pepper            1/2 tsp ground ginger
2 tbs brown sugar

and finally....Bob's Own Beef Jerky
I haven't tried this one yet, but i think i will when i have the 
time to go hunting around for more spices...

Bob's Beef Jerky

4 tbs soy sauce          4 tbs Worcestershire sauce
4 tbs teriyaki sauce     1/2 tsp liquid smoke
1 tbs corriander         1/4 tsp garlic powder
1/4 tsp pepper
1 tbs ketchup (he uses hot ketchup)

He suggests playing around with it.  Adding more pepper or garlic.  
Maybe a bit of red wine.  Or anything else that sounds good.

Anyway....that's it...so far I've been pretty happy with things so
far.  And the dried fruit is great too...the fresh stuff works best.
Much better than processed stuff from a can.  

Anyway...have fun...I did.

Fuzzy
--

Passion:  A feeling you feel when you feel you are about to feel a 
          feeling you've never felt before.

fuzzy@sage.cc.purdue.edu
From: carmanr@lafcol.lafayette.edu (Carman Robert (picro))
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Abbey bashing.  Was: Trip rpt: SE Utah 4wd vacation, part 3/4
Summary: Population case study...
Date: 18 Nov 92 17:06:41 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Lafayette College, Easton PA



You know all those formulations that tell you about how many jillions of 
meadow voles one female would produce in a year if...? Here's a human example.
My maternal grandmother, who homesteaded in Oklahoma with her husband in the
last Cherokee Strip run, had 13 children. Though all were born at home and
delivered by neighboring farm wives acting as midwives, they all survived to
adulthood. Although my mother had only two children, her record for fecundity
was well below the family average. One of her brothers had 11 sons, another 
eight children. By the time my grandmother died at age 104 (said to have been
the last Oklahoma homesteader still in possession of the original 160), she 
had 191 living direct descendants. Only five of them, by the way, still live
in the county where the homestead was located. The rest of us are all out 
there somewhere, demanding new subdivisions and overrunning the backcountry.
From: dovey@renoir.llnl.gov (Donald Dovey)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: USFS Backcountry Fees
Date: 19 Nov 92 01:32:20 GMT
Reply-To: dovey@renoir.llnl.gov (Donald Dovey)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory

In article <1ebq45INNm42@morrow.stanford.edu>,
AS.MSW@forsythe.stanford.edu (Marc Whitney) writes:
>I have just seen a news report on a proposal to charge user fees for
>backpacking and hiking use of the National Forests.  My first
>response was negative.  However, to say that the money collected
>would be used to replace logging revenues.  <...>
>If this is true I would be inclined to change my view.

An article on forest use fees appears on the front page of the the San
Francisco Chronicle, November 16.  According to the article, the fees
were proposed in a report by a "nonprofit environmental consulting firm"
called Cascade Holistic Economic Consultants, but the Forest Service
has not considered such fees and has no plans to ask Congress for the
authority to implement them.

In article <1ecdfjINNn00@morrow.stanford.edu>,
 HF.MMS@forsythe.stanford.edu (Mark Skubik) writes:
> Those apposed to the usage fees have argued that imposing
> the fees on taxpayers (who already own the public land)
> would mean charging you to use what's already yours.
> Also that it would unfairly deny the poor to access to public
> land.
> 
> On the first, I'd rather pay a little to keep the forests
> than let the government give it away to logging companies
> who pay for the salaries going to forest service personnel <...>

Quoting from the article, "The drive to cut more trees has led
many of the national forests to spend more on roads and other
timber-sale preparations than they get from the sales themselves,
sticking taxpayers with the bill.  In a report issued last year,
the consulting firm calculated that such questionable timber sales
cost $180 million in 1990."

The purpose of the fees is not to replace logging revenue to the
Forest Service, but to replace the tax base that logging provides
to nearby communities.  "Counties that contain national forests
are as dependent as the Forest Service on money from timber sales
because federal laws guarantee them 25 percent of national forest
receipts for schools and roads."

It looks to me like a scheme to subsidize logging communities as
the amount of logging is reduced.  That may be good or bad, but
I don't want to have a fee for general use of the national forests.
Fees for "improved campgrounds" which have toilets, garbage collection,
etc. are fine; I avoid those campgrounds whenever possible.

> On the second point, small usage fees do not keep the
> poor folks out of the forest.  The cost of outfitting
> a trip into the forest keeps the disadvantaged out.

Forest use is certainly a middle-class activity.  But should we put
one more barrier there for the poor?

--
Don Dovey                                             dovey@llnl.gov
From: jeffw@or.credence.com (Jeff Winslow)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Abbey bashing.  Was: Trip rpt: SE Utah 4wd vacation, part 3/4
Keywords: population growth
Date: 22 Nov 92 03:58:20 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Credence Systems Corp. Beaverton, OR

In article <142063@lll-winken.LLNL.GOV> dovey@renoir.llnl.gov (Donald Dovey) writes:

[statistics on population growth in the US deleted]

>  I've directed followups to talk.environment.

Good move, but they're going to be *really* confused by the subject line!


Peace... JW
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: cyeomans@ms.uky.edu (Charles Yeomans)
Subject: Re: The overpopulation problem. NOT!
    <Nov18.222851.46984@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> 
    <1992Nov20.121950.1@vmsb.is.csupomona.edu>
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 17:03:46 GMT
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences

In article <1992Nov20.121950.1@vmsb.is.csupomona.edu> cvakgaaq@vmsb.is.csupomona.edu writes:
>> 
>>>Can I please just exist?
>> 
>> Sure.  There is a 300 sq ft hovel reserved for you in downtown Tokyo.
>> 
>> -- 
>> 
>> -Wayne Trzyna
>>  trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU
>
>
>	Racist. The Japanese are some of the finest people on Earth and the
>most efficient; they will inherit the mantle of Western Civilization as America
>reverts to tribalism, mysticism, and self-denigration.
>
>-Austin

Yes, you're absloutely right.  In fact, I think we would be better off
if we were more like the Japanese.  Let us strive for a homogeneous 
society and get rid of immigration, especially of other races.  Let's 
institutionalize racism, beef up our industrial espionage, use societal
pressure to force workers into unrequited loyalty, kill the shit
out of the remaining whale population and otherwise fish wherever
wewant, refuse to allow those European skis into the US because
American snow is different, etc.

Osu!

Charles Yeomans

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: jag9931@rigel.tamu.edu (GLENNON, JOHN ALAN)
Subject: Re: Long-term cave exploration - waste disposal?
Summary: cave dumping  
Organization: Texas A&M University, College Station
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 20:50:00 GMT

S.W. Marlatt writes:
>I belive some of the urine is allowed to be 
>dumped in the cave, in selected areas. This is becoming fairly
>routine in many large caves (e.g. Wind, Jewel, Lech, Carlsbad, etc.),
>as a natural outgrowth of the increasing numbers of people caving
>these days. (If you don't cave, don't start! It's really nothing to
>get excited about.) 

  I have worked at all three parks mentioned: Jewel Cave, Wind Cave, and
Carlsbad, and none of them allow any type of human waste dumping in any 
part of the cave.  ALL human waste is carried out.  Apparently, it was 
once a practice to leave human waste in Lechuguilla (urine in a bucket),
with the thought that the urine would evaporate.  From what I have heard,
the urine has not evaporated, and one of the base camps stinks to 
"high heaven".
  The Park Service has closed Lechuguilla Cave temporarily to exploration 
while such resource management issues are examined.  

-Alan Glennon

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry