From: harkcom@spinach.pa.yokogawa.co.jp (Alton Harkcom)
Subject: literacy (was Re: DOES AMERICA SAY YES TO JAPAN?)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 23:47:24 GMT
	<Bz4wow.2DK@news.cs.andrews.edu> <Bz6342.F0G@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
	<7525@bigbird.hri.com.hri.com>
Organization: Yokogawa Electric Corporation, Tokyo, Japan

In article <7525@bigbird.hri.com.hri.com> blamb@hri.com (Bill Lambert) writes:

 =}=> In article <Bz4wow.2DK@news.cs.andrews.edu> maierj@edmund.cs.andrews.edu 
 =}=>(Joey Maier) writes:
 =}
 =}=> >I know that it is not a reasonable comparison since English is my first
 =}=> >language and I have only been trying to learn Japanese for one year, but
 =}=> >2000 kanji seems like a hell of alot of literacy to me!
 =}
 =}In article <Bz6342.F0G@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu
 =}(Brent Irvine) writes:
 =}=> To a foreigner trying to learn it, sure, but consider that English has
 =}=> over 100,000 words, about 10,000 are in common usage, with similar numbers
 =}=> for the Japanese, then knowing 2000 words in your first language may
 =}=> be considered very *basic* understanding.
 =}=> 
 =}=> While I do not mean to imply that the Japanese do this, if one can lower
 =}=> standards enough, EVERYONE can be made literate or illiterate.
 =}
 =}For your information, Brent (and maybe others), 2000 kanji are much
 =}more than two thousand words, as they are used in complex arrangements
 =}of two, three, four and more to form entirely different concepts and
 =}constructs.  Those 2000 Kanji provide a literacy level similar to that
 =}needed to read a top-level US periodical or newspaper. I don't think
 =}the standard of literacy is quite so different.

HEADLINE: Literacy controversy erupts on s.c.j.....  again.....

   I still haven't got the original articles in this thread yet so I am
replying to Mr. Lamb's post even though my comments are general...

1) literacy rate

   The literacy rate measure in Japan is set by the government to be
nearly 100%.  However the way in which it is measured leaves much to
be desried.  The measure is based almost completely on the assumption
that almost all children will complete high school and that the
completion of high school signifies competency in the knowledge of
the Japanese language.  Non-governmental sources which deal with the
illiteracy problems in Japan estimate literacy to be roughly 70%, not
the nearly 100% the government claims.

2) 2000 kanzi

   Though learning 2000 kanzi is a monumental task, the kanzi alone are
not a good measure of literacy.  One can know the kanzi yet still be lost
when trying to read a newspaper...  Knowledge of vocabulary is still
important in being literate.  There are many people who can 'read' a
newspaper yet can not understand what they have read...

#   Though it is easy to take my comments about the government and kanzi
# as Japan-Bashing (most who make bad/ignorant/wrong assumptions will),
# that is not what they are.  The literacy rate as measured by the
# government is very questionable (questioned by even the Japanese).
# And the inability to understand the newspaper does exist (I have
# witnessed it on many occasions and there are groups in Japan dedicated
# to combatting this problem)...
#
#   So before you press the "Flame This Sucker" key with your sweaty
# little fingers, let me finish...

3) comparison of US to Japan

   The topics of 'measured literacy rates' and 'what is literacy' aside,
the problem of not being able to read seems to be much more prevalent in
the US than in Japan.  And thanks to the kanzi, the reading ability of
the average person seems (IMHO) to be higher in Japan.

# Though it is easy to take my comparison of Japan and the US as Ass-
# Kissing (most who make bad/ignorant/wrong assumptions will), that is
# not what is is.  It is my opinion based on my years of experience in
# the US and Japan...
#
#   So before you press the "Flame This Sucker" key with your sweaty
# little fingers, piss off!

--
---

   I will be on vacation from 12/18 - 12/27 and will not be able to
read email during that time.  My company will be on vacation from
12/29 - 1/4 and our news and mail servers will be down during that time...

   Sorry for the inconvenience...
Newsgroups: soc.culture.japan