HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Dworkin (was Re: Liberty)
Date: 30 Dec 92 02:29:03 GMT
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison


In article <1992Dec30.013604.8299@asuvax.eas.asu.edu>
ra@asuvax.eas.asu.edu (Starcap'n Ra) writes:

>I'm sorry, but Dworkin is an idiot.  The world may well end
>up being better off as a result of her having existed, and
>she's interesting as an example of just how much the status
>quo can detrimentally warp someone beyond any human
>recognition, but that's another issue and beside the point:

I don't think it *is* another issue or beside the point ...

>she's still an idiot (unless she doesn't really believe in
>what she spouts and is doing it for a calculated effect,
>which I highly doubt).

... if we examine all this rather excessive rhetoric we've
been hearing about Dworkin.  If she were a run-of-the-mill
idiot, as you (and others) claim, she would hardly merit the
really quite vitriolic commentary her name is evoking in
these hallowed corridors.

I remind late-comers to the discussion that I've not read
her own words, but irrespective of that, I'm not arguing
that she's sane or insane, a sage or a fool.  Rather, that
she *does* evoke this (what I see as an) outsized response;
clearly, she's hit a raw nerve, and that nerve belongs
overwhelmingly to men.  The inference is strong that men
perceive her as *very* threatening.  Fools generally aren't
(exceptions like Pat Robertson notwithstanding).

>And not speaking to you Jess, but at large to the general
>discussion: please, can we be spared the "well, her starting
>point is valid, she just comes to the wrong conclusions"
>jibberish?  I mean, so what, just what in hell is *that*
>supposed to prove, besides absolutely nothing?

Thank you for the exception, but I nevertheless don't buy
this line of argument either.  It's hardly gibberish [note
the spelling in passing] that her starting point is: men
oppress women.  As a general rule, they do, indisputably.

Let me put it aggressively, for the purpose of argument: is
it that so many men wish to be spared *that* truth that
causes them to lash out at Dworkin with such sustained
venom?  Is it that her (apparently quite wild) conclusions
aren't supportable that leads so many men (many fewer women,
I believe) to denounce her, including her *entire* point of
view in the scope of their scorn?  

I repeat, if she's a plain fool, none of that would be at
all necessary, and men being the laziest of gawd's
creatures, surely they would not trouble themselves so much
over a negligible ranter against the holy of holies, the
male ego.

<> There are no ordinary moments.
-- 
[Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin]
[Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson]
[Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888]
[---------> Discrimination, Bigotry, and Hate are not Family Values <---------]
From: Cread@Fwva.Saic.Com
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: *** SPOILERS *** from rec.arts.startrek.info
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 22:08:09 GMT
Organization: Science Applications Int'l, Corp. - Computer systems operation

mush@craycos.com (Randy Murrish) writes:
>
>
>Yes Daddy!  It doesn't get any better than this!  Patrick Stewart
>naked (well, we will only get to see his chest) and tied up, ready for
 
Actually, there was a medium shot of his posterior, full length; and another
frontal, with a picture frame or somesuch discreetly blocking most of the
crotch, but enough to show he had nothing on.  quite risque for
TV - hope I look that good at 50+!
From: mattm@Apple.COM (Matthew Melmon)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Muffin on Parade
Date: 2 Jan 93 22:36:12 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, CA

TMCCART3@ua1vm.ua.edu (Tracey McCartney) writes:

>large breasts have a certain appeal in some contexts. 

I *love* lesbians with *huge* breasts.  You can poke 'em and
shake 'em and skaaaawwwwweeeeeeezzzzzeee 'em and move 'em all
around and do things you just can't *do* with even the 
yummiest of yummy bubble-butted blonde beach boys - be they
worthy of taking seriously or not.

*X*
(of course, one is advised to get permission from the 
afforementioned lesbian-type before sskkkaaawwwweeeeezing her
bahoongas)
From: jeffy@syrinx.umd.edu (Jeffrey C. Burka)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Sex in America
Date: 31 Dec 92 04:34:11 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland at College Park

In article <1992Dec30.214424.13329@bsu-ucs> d000dlphi@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu (David Speakman) writes:

>The following is a posting of the results of a 1991 study by the National
>Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago.

>IN reference to gender of partners [...]

>3% [of the men in the study] said partners were exclusively male, 

>In 1988 NORC found the 98.5% of sexually active adults have been exclusively
>heterosexual during the last year.

Cool!  That means that in the 3 years between '88 and '91 the men were
able to recruit enough impressionable young men to double the number of 
male homosexuals!


>The survey acknowledges that the number is
>considerably below the 10% adult homosexuals that the Kinsey report claimed 
>and argues that a 2% homosexual figure is "in line with the best available 
>figures" done in other 1988 studies.

How does the survey explain the 100% difference between the '88 and the '91
data?  Or don't they bother trying?  What's their take on the 5.3% of men
who refused to answer the question regarding the gender of sex partners?
Are they assumed heterosexual?

Jeff




-- 
|Jeffrey C. Burka                | "Show what you are / Be strong, be true  |
|                                |  Time for you to / Be who you are."      |
|jeffy@syrinx.umd.edu            |                         --Happy Rhodes   |
From: rhiann@carson.u.washington.edu (Sandy --not Sandra)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: long-term relationships...success stories, please...
Date: 23 Dec 92 01:24:06 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Dec23.012406.11262
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

>Joseph M. Gerkman (gerkman@binky.csc.wsu.edu) wrote:
>: 
>: Hi all!
>: 
>: Thanks for all of the information about same-sex marriages, ....  
>: But I have another question for all of you...I kinda want to hear some  
>: success stories of long-lasting relationships...hopefully ones that are  
>: still going strong...I hope this doesn't sound silly...
>: 
>: Joe Gerkman
>: gerkman@binky.csc.wsu.edu
>

    Last weekend I went to see the "Holiday Survival Game Show" a Christmas
tradition in lesbigay Seattle.  To choose the contestants for the 
"Family Values Show" a short Newlywedish sort of game in the middle,
all of the couples in the audience were asked to stand.  (I looked, every
couple at my showing was gay.) 

    Then they had only the ones who'd been together
more than a year stand, then two years, then 5....  They finally ended up
with a lesbian couple 14+years and aa gay male couple 12+ years together,
but the fun was in seeing all the couples who had made it multiple years
together.  There was spontaneous applause when there were still 6 couples
standing at the 10 year point.

One of the nicest parts of a wonderful theatre experience (those who have
seen it will understand why I couldn't quite call it a play...)


-- 
 * Sandy *   "I'll believe Avon treated men and women equally the day I see
       	     him kiss a man, tell him he's beautiful when he's angry, kill
     	     him and then gloat over it."    Sue Clerc <sclerc@andy.bgsu.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: gllow@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca (Gay and Lesbian Liberation of Waterloo)
Subject: Re: Coming out at work - HELP!
Summary: More on Out on the Street
	[Chris Chin]
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 07:09:27 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.192935.24493@psych.toronto.edu> paul@psych.toronto.edu (Paul Hastings) writes:
>In article <1992Dec21.074006.12264@mic.ucla.edu> cjones@physci.ucla.edu (Chad Jones) writes:
>>In article <19DEC92.15444939@enh.nist.gov> , aberson@enh.nist.gov writes:
>>>                                                  I've been looking for 
>>>something obvious, like one which says "Queer" or "Faggot."  Anyone have
>>>any suggestions?  One would think with all the witty t-shirts
>>>around, a coffee mug wouldn't be so difficult.
>>
	[stuff about Don't Panic in W Hollywood]
>>

Hmmm.  You might also try the Wear Me Out Company, in LA, I believe.


>Here in Toronto, Out on the Street is the place for gayeT's.  For
>Xmas I've received a 'Don we now our gay apparel' T-shirt.  But one

Good call, Paul.  Here are some of my favourites from Out on the Street:

	The Family Tree Stops Here
	Gay Boys Make Me Hard  <-----that oughta be obvious enough!
	The Ten Percent Club  <-----people seem to think this is for a 
					discount store we have here!     

The Shocking Gray Catalogue ("The Store for the Other 25 Million People")
also has a good selection of stuff.  Out on the Street also has boxers,
bathsheets, shower curtains (!), bedsheets (lotsa sizes!), and an 
absolutely  * f a b u l o u s *  collection of handpainted t-shirts 
featuring....yep, you guessed it, the Wizard of Oz characters.

The Tin Man, the Cowardly Lion, the Scarecrow....and Dorothy, with Toto.
Glinda the Good Witch is there too, as is the Wicked Witch of the West
(along with a t-shirt that asks "Are You A Good Witch or a Bad Witch?").

Drop by if you're ever in Toronto -- Out on the Street is on Church Street
2 1/2 blocks north of Wellesley (the heart of Boystown!), on the north side
of Cawthra Square Park.

**Chris, who really oughta ask Out on the Street for a commission....:-)



|    ____                                                      |
|    \  /     love + pride + strength + unity = freedom        |
|     \/                                                       |
|             Chris Chin     hcchin@civil.watstar.uwaterloo.ca |

..disregard the .sig, the email expires soon.  try me at ah424@yfn.ysu.edu
or email gllow@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca with my name in the subject header...
From: dauber@tattoo.mti.sgi.com (Jeff Dauber)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: EE statements (was: Re: Attention Skiers Boycotting Colorado)
Date: 30 Dec 92 23:02:08 GMT
Reply-To: dauber@tattoo.mti.sgi.com (Jeff Dauber)
Organization: sgi
NNTP-Posting-Host: tattoo.mti.sgi.com

In article <1ht8mdINN79g@hp-col.col.hp.com>, smithw@col.hp.com (Walter Smith) writes:

|> I agree that you should be able to seek relief in the court system.  But 
|> I find so much of the rest to be hysteria.  How many examples can you 
|> refer to where companies have violated their own EE policies?  

Let's see... I know of many cases at San Francisco General Hospital where
it has been violated.  I know of cases at HP and IBM where people are having
problems.  I can come up with a lot of places where people had to invoke
the policy.  It happens all the time.

Why would this surprise you?


FWA
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: rogerk@queernet.org (Roger B.A. Klorese)
Subject: Re: Austin, TX joins Colo. Boycott
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 23:06:17 GMT
Organization: QueerNet

In article <1992Dec30.201805.21950@lclark.edu> snodgras@lclark.edu (Bil Snodgrass) writes:
>
>Talked to a friend who says Austin has a non-discrimination ordinance against
>Gays!!!!

So let's see if I understand this:

Those of us who have lived in Texas say so... you dismiss it.

Motssketeers who currently live in Texas say so... you dismiss it.

Larry Stratton's list says so... you dismiss it.

You talk to a friend... wow, now that's credible.

Hmmmmph.
-- 
ROGER B.A. KLORESE                                              +1 415 ALL-ARFF
rogerk@unpc.QueerNet.ORG              {ames,decwrl,pyramid}!sgiblab!unpc!rogerk
"Normal is not something to aspire to, it's something to get away from."
                                                                   -- J. Foster
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: fogarty@sir-c.jpl.nasa.gov (Tim Fogarty)
Subject: Re: Long-term relationships...success stories please...
Organization: Image Analysis Systems Group, JPL
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 22:52:02 GMT


In article <1992Dec30.181553.15689@fuug.fi>, an3360@anon.penet.fi writes:
|>
|>Here's a tangent to this thread: does anyone have examples of successful 
|>"conventional" marriages (by that I simply mean involving a man and a woman, 
|>no prejudices intended or implied) in which both partners are gay and have 
|>got together for the sake of appearances and/or having kids?  Or how
|>about successful marriages in which one or both partners is bi and has 
|>been allowed to carry on with a gay relationship outside the marriage?
|>

If you want to include Hollywood celebs as conventional

strong evidence:

	the late Tony Perkins and his wife of ~20 years, has two sons

	Olivia Newton-John and Matt Latanzi, has at least one child

less strong evidence:

	Paul Newman and his wife (Joan Woodward ?)
From: jprigeon@hpscit.sc.hp.com (John Prigeon)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 00:25:37 GMT
Subject: Muffin on Parade
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Santa Clara, CA
Newsgroups: soc.motss

Hi Everybody!!!!!

This is it!  I am officially demuffinized!  Phew, that wasn't so bad.
Actually, it was a lot less painful than I imagined.  Kind of like . . .
well, nevermind.   :^)

Anyway, I've spent some time figuring out my smurf and bear codes.
Allow me to share them with you:

S4 b g l+ y+ z n o- x- a+ u v- j++

B0 f+ t++ w- g s
               
One thing about the bear code has puzzled me, though.  Does anyone really
use e+ or e++?  IMHO, it sounds like telling someone at a bar that you're,
oh, a millionare or dated Tom Cruise (or Wilford Brimley for the ursine 
types), or something. 

jap, wondering just exactly what the demarcation is between e+ and e++.
From: bcapps@agora.rain.com (Brent Capps)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: A Taste of Culture
Keywords: Gay food
Date: 17 Dec 92 15:47:32 GMT
Article-I.D.: agora.BzEuJ8.8GC
Organization: Open Communications Forum

rcrice@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (roger.w.crice) writes:
>I thought to myself What
>sort of food could I share with my coworkers that would
>represent *my* culture?  

Why not take the opposite tack?  What sort of food do you suppose
is representative of the fundamentalist culture?

My nomination: a jello-mold Jesus with pimento stigmata, served
in all seriousness during Easter dinner...

-- 
Brent Capps                          | "It's just a phase you're going  
bcapps@agora.rain.com (gay stuff)    |  through.  Last year it was 
bcapps@atlastele.com (telecom stuff) |  miniature golf."
From: mattm@apple.com (Matthew Melmon)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Marky M. and Vanity Fair
Date: 31 Dec 92 00:50:29 GMT
Followup-To: soc.motss
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.

In article <1992Dec30.233800.26466@PacBell.COM>, rjwill6@PacBell.COM (Rod
Williams) wrote:

> Cuper*tino*???!!!

Certainly not!  I *work* in Cupertino.  I *live* in Menlo Park.
*Much* closer to that beacon of the elite:  San Francisco (without
having to smell the backed up sewers and the pissed-on sidewalks and
the uncollected trash and the stagnant bay-waters and all that...).

But, one really must include the entire Bay Area when discussing
'cultural landmarks' - as both Stanford and Berkeley lie beyond
the confines of Babylon. 

As, of course, does the * Stanford * Shopping * Center *

*X*
(I do wish Apple would take up the lease on the absolutely
divine office buildings in Palo Alto that Digital is vacating,
but no such luck is likely to materialize.  ApplePARC, or 
something like that...)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: tdbear@dvorak.amd.com (Thomas D. Barrett)
Subject: Re: Austin, TX joins Colo. Boycott
Organization: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.; Austin, Texas
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 93 11:50:36 GMT

In article <fl124=_@rpi.edu> buckmr@aix02.ecs.rpi.edu (Ron Buckmire) writes:
>Are you saying hat AUSTIN, TEXAS has had a gay rights ordinance on the
>books since 1974??

[red with embarassment] I didn't read the article in the
Austin-American (don't ask) Statesman properly.  Austin has had
ordinances on the books since 1975 prohibiting discrimination, but
they have obviously been amended over time... the last three
admendments were to add "sexual orientation, age, HIV status" among
others.  The article did not go in to details.


>A broader question, do all 9 cities that are boycotting Colorado have
>gay rights ordinances? I would presume YES.

That's what Denver's mayor was asking all of them... it IS being a
hypocrit to support the boycott and yet discriminate in (at least)
public employment.  Hopefully, the folks in the cities which did
support the boycott and which don't have sexual orientation protection
themselves can mount an easy effort to get the cities to pass
protection for public workers (this doesn't usually take a vote by the
people).  It's a start, at least.

-- 
|Tom Barrett (TDBear), Sr. Engineer|tom.barrett@amd.com|v:512-462-6856 |
|AMD PCD MS-520 | 5900 E. Ben White|Austin, TX  78741  |f:512-462-5155 |
|"No is yes, And we're all free"   |CO made a #2 no-no... PU!          |
|My views are my own and may not be the same as the company of origin  |
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: coren@speed.osf.org (Robert Coren)
Subject: Afghans (was: What to do for NEW YEAR'S EVE in Los Angeles?)
Organization: Open Software Foundation
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 15:23:59 GMT

In article <1992Dec30.120657.28660@macc.wisc.edu>, anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:
> In article <1hs001INNg4d@mizar.usc.edu>
> adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:
> 
> >Maybe I'll just stay at home
> >and finish knitting that afghan I started in 1973.
> 
> Oh, now *here's* a Queer Question (tm): what fraction of
> afghans are knitted and what fraction are crocheted?  My
> granny could crochet a good-sized afghan in less than a day.

John's been crocheting an afghan since... well, not 1973, but surely
no later than 1983. It's one of these things where you crochet a bunch
of patterned squares about 5" on a side, and eventually sew (or
crochet?) them all together. He estimates that he's made about 40 or
50, and the whole thing probably requires anout 150. I'm looking
forward to my 70th birthday present... :-)

This was conceived as a project to work on during those idle moments
when there's nothing else to do, of which there don't seem to be many
-- there's always something, like reading or playing computer games or
sleeping... I expect he'll bring it on our winter vacation, and
probably do a few squares during afternoon nap time. The last time he
worked on it, as far as I remember, was last winter when he was on a
sequestered jury for two weeks (he did *not* crochet in the courtroom).

> 
> (I suppose the puns on Afghans (the hounds and the hardy
> folk), as well as on minims, crochets, and quavers are now
> unavoidable.  In the latter category, notated replies will be
> noted favorably; I get quivery (an arch reaction), though
> not quacky, over quavers and occasionally crotchety over
> both crochets and crotches.)
> 

Well, if you're a quarter as crotchety over something half as minimal
as notational nomenclature, as I live and breve, you'll get more
quavers than the rest of us. With flags hanging from the beams, and
staves at the ready, we can handel all the treble that your mordent
slurs can measure out. (Oh, how trilling! be still, my
hemidemisemiquavery heart!)
From: strong@apple.com (Bob Strong)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: "cures" for homosexuality
Date: 22 Dec 92 21:35:06 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.

>In article <1992Dec22.170637.15042@ucsu.Colorado.EDU>
mudge@ucsu.Colorado.EDU 
>(MUDGE BRIAN WAYNE) writes:
>>  From THE GAY BOOK OF LISTS, 11 Alleged Cures for Homosexuality, 
>>
>>7.) Physical Therapy, according to one theory, prostate massage kills 
>>    "homosexual cells" and replaces them with "healthy heterosexual
cells".

Hey wait a minute.  I've always found just the opposite:  it's the only
reliable way to 
make a gay man out of a straight man.
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: rdonahue@spdcc.com (Bob Donahue)
Subject: Re: How did you find soc.motss?
Organization: insert anything here
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 15:14:09 GMT

nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar) writes:
>How did you discover soc.motss? Did you find it at the same time you
>found Usenet, or later?

	I *READ THE DOCUMENTATION*.

	It was on our system , although we had no news feed.
Looking thru the list (I may have done a "grep -i homo" n it)
I found net.motss.

	3 years later I found a computer that had a feed that
actually INCLUDED soc.motss.  Not having an account, I did
a more on all the articles in /usr/spool/news/soc/motss, and
from posting one kept on after that (well for a few weeks).

	I de-muffined 48 hours later by asking someone (Paul)
to post for me...

	In the Fall I got an account here (well actually at mit)
and re-entered soc.motss in the middle of the "John and Phillip"
flamewar (#1).  I wonder if those two bastions of queer-moral-righteousness
are still the same idyllic couple on the pedestal they wanted us
to build for them....

	Sigh - memories...

BBC - wanting to keep "motss" as the name.

Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: lazarus@wixer.cactus.org (Michael Lax)
Subject: Jewish War Veterans on gays in military
Organization: Real/Time Communications
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 18:10:04 GMT

The following is an excerpt from the Jewish War Veterans of the USA
Adopted Resolutions at their 97th National Convention on Aug. 16-23,
1992 at the Stouffer Harborplace Hotel in Baltimore, MD.

The JWV may be contacted at 202-265-6280 (vox) or 202-234-5662 (fax).
The ntl. exec. dir is Col. Herb Rosenbleeth; his asst. is Ira
Greenspan.


_MILITARY_HOMOSEXUALITY_

Media reports continue to indicate a concerted effort is being mounted by
activists in certain groups to force the Department of Defense (DoD) to
eliminate regulations which preclude military service to declared
homosexual men and women.

Beyond the insidious effect which the effort has upon the morale of men
and women who serve in our nation's armed forces, it has been confirmed
that 42% of soldiers testing HIV-positive had homosexual sex, in direct
violation of the policy of U.S. armed forces.

The cost of caring for each HIV-positive military person, verified by DoD
records, was $200,000.  It was further stated that in the last ten years
DoD has expended $3 billion dollars on AIDS infected military personnel.

In light of the diminution of the DoD budget, it is imperative that the
DoD enforce regulations which forbid homosexual acts amongst U.S. military
personnel.

Jewish War Veterans of the USA urges our membership to communicate this
urgent message to the appropriate governmental authorities.
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: kgdykes@thinkage.on.ca (Ken Dykes)
Subject: the story ends with a cliff hanger?
Keywords: kidnapping, beards, bikes
Organization: Thinkage Ltd.
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 18:53:31 GMT

In article <1992Dec29.011207.16264@midway.uchicago.edu> grendel@uhuru.uchicago.edu (Cliff Winnig) writes:
>But do I get to ride on Ken's bike?

yes. but the law only allows one passenger. ooooo, i guess i get a non-group
opportunity then! :-) :-)

moo hahahaha!

be warned: early june/93

-- 
   - Ken Dykes, Thinkage Ltd., Kitchener, Ontario, Canada    [43.47N 80.52W]
         kgdykes@thinkage.on.ca   postmaster@thinkage.com   thinkage!kgdykes
         harley-request@thinkage.on.ca             kgdykes@math.uwaterloo.ca