From: njs@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (nicholas.j.sauer)
Newsgroups: rec.games.board.ce
Subject: Re: a few more questions...
Date: 4 Sep 92 21:43:26 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <FASCIANO.92Sep4112912@nil.IRO.UMontreal.CA>, fasciano@nil.IRO.UMontreal.CA (Massimo Fasciano) writes:
>
>a) in response to my question about the validity of something for
>nothing deals, everybody (including NJS who contributes to encounter
>magazine) told me they were perfectly valid. and according to the
>Mayfair rulebook, they appear to be. but then i looked at Encounter
>v2n2 (top right of page 5) and it says ``The word "exchange" indicates
>that each player must get something for a deal to be valid.'' Now i'm
>really confused!

Two words will explain this: Jim Musser.  He changed Mike Arms answer to
this question from what everyone else has answered here to what is in 
that issue.  So, I guess this would fall into the yet another difference
between Eon and Mayfair CE catagory.  In Mayfair, the "official" answer
from Jim Musser is that there must be a two way exchange of material in
order for a deal to be valid.  Be warned, this is what you will see at
any Mayfair run CE tournament (unless Mike Arms is running it, that is).

>It is still not clear to me what happens if Wrack removes all of his
>opponent's tokens from the cone. Suppose Wrack has 4 tokens on a home
>base and his opponent has 4 tokens in the cone (no allies). Wrack
>removes the attacker's 4 tokens from the cone. Since the attacker did
>not accept the deal and suffered the whole torture, Wrack loses the
>challenge "according to normal challenge resolution". But there are no
>tokens on the offensive end! What happens? Wrack loses his home base
>(his 4 tokens go to the warp) and the base stays empty (the attacker
>cannot gain a base since he has no tokens in the cone). 

This is exactly right.  The Wrack lost the challenge so, his tokens go to
the warp.  The offensive player wins the challenge but, does not gain
anything for it since he has no tokens left in the cone.

>Same scenario, but with a bunch of tokens from offensive allies. Wrack
>removes the main attacker's 4 tokens, but the main attacker's allies
>are still in the cone. The allies get the base, right?

Yes, and the offensive main player gets squat.

>b') I asked a related question: In general, what happens if the
>offensive player has no more tokens in the cone? And got this answer
>from Nick Sauer:
>
>NJS> He plays a challenge card normally.  If it is an Attack card his
>NJS> total is the value of the Attack card since he has no tokens to
>NJS> add to it.  If it is a Compromise he gets no consolation if he
>NJS> loses because he lost no tokens.  It's roughly the same as
>NJS> attacking the defensive player on a planet in his system where he
>NJS> has no tokens.  If you ever get in this situation yourself, it is
>NJS> a great time to pitch a low Attack card as you have no tokens to
>NJS> lose to the warp (although if you are the offensive player and it
>NJS> is your first challenge you won't get a second).
>
>What happens if he wins with no tokens in the cone and no allies? With
>allies in the cone? (see question b). Does he get the base? Does the
>defender lose it?

I guess your primary point of confusion here is that you're looking to closely 
at the number of tokens in the cone.  This is not important to the challenge 
outcome.  Either player can win a challenge with no tokens involved.
All that matters for challenge resolution (when two attack cards are played)
is who has the higher total.  That player is the winner of the challenge
and the other player is the loser regardless of whether they actually have 
any tokens involved in the challenge.  Yes, you can win a challenge with no
tokens in the cone and the other side still loses.  You just don't get a 
base for your victory.
 
>c) This new question came up last night in a long game: what happens
>when Vampire captures one of Fungus' stacks? Does he turn over the
>whole stack and play it as a single (normal) token?

Yes.  Actually, the Vampire only flips over the top Fungus token in the
stack, but it still only counts as one token for the Vampire player.
The reason you only flip the top token in the stack will become important
in the following answers.

>When it goes to
>the warp, it doesn't break up because it is under the Vampire's
>control (unless someone plays a Warp Break or Mobius Tubes). or does
>it? 

The following quote is from the Fungus power:

"Tokens lost to the Fungus are released WHEN THE FUNGOID STACK IS IN THE
WARP."  So, yes the stack does break up.

>If it breaks up, Vampire controls all the tokens separately?

No, this is why you only flipped the top (Fungus) token previously.  The
stack breaks up with the earlier "Fungused" tokens returning to the control
of their owners.  However, the flipped Fungus token remains in control of
the Vampire (until a Warp Break or Mobius Tubes releases it).
 
>c') Reverse situation: Fungus captures a bunch of Vampire's enslaved
>tokens in a stack. When the stack breaks up, they return to Vampire's
>control, right?

Yes, until someone plays a Mobius Tubes or a Warp Break.

>c'') The Fungus power card explains what happens when he loses his
>power (stacks stay intact but count as 1 token until power is
>regained). The effect of power loss on Vampire is not explained on the
>card but i think it is covered in Encounter v2n2 (enslaved tokens
>can't be moved and don't count for bases, right?). My question is,
>what does a Cosmic Zap do to Fungus and Vampire. Cosmic Zap =
>temporary power loss, or is there a subtle distinction? I know you can
>prevent the capture of tokens by Vampire/Fungus with a CZ (negate use
>of power), but can you make Fungus count his stacks as 1 by C-Zapping
>him? Can you prevent Vampire from using his enslaved tokens by Cosmic
>Zapping him?

Yes to both.  The power loss effects described are enacted regardless of
the reason for the power loss.

Nick Sauer