From: jamalin@newton.ccs.tuns.ca (Nadeem Jamali)
Subject: Re: Is Islam equal to Intolearnce and Fascism ?
Organization: Technical University of Nova Scotia, Halifax, N.S.
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 17:22:48 GMT

In article <67077@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt9593a@prism.gatech.EDU (SHAMIM,MUHAMMAD ARIF) writes:

..... (stuff deleted)

>>It shows how Islam is used to harrass someone. The problem we face is not
>>the intolerance that/if Islam explicitly supports.... it's the intolerance
>>that comes as a net effect of Islam. 
>>
>>>
>>>sahibzada rafay khan[]
>>>
>>
>>Nadeem
>>
> 
>Dear Jamali:
>
>It is apparent from your above statements that you do not
>seem to understand the difference between a "theory" and its
>"practical" application. Also, it may well be the case of
>having grudge agianst some idea that you *cannot* perceive
>its constructive effects. You appear to miss the point that
>misuse or incorrect application of a proven theory can lead
>to undesirable results. Let me explain it more clearly in
>simple terms so probably you can understand. 

I assume your relevant arguements appear later in the posting.

>You cannot label a calculator as "damaged," if you do not
>know its use or do not carefully follow its instructions.
>Most students did not like HP-41 CX model when it was
>introduced. It wasn't the calculator, nor it was the
>manufacturer's fault. The USERS who did not follow the
>instructions given in its manual could not operate it.
>
>If you wash delicate clothes in your washing machine
>selecting inappropriat,
>there are many of them. And, if you adopt one of them
>correctly, you will be at a great advantage. If a pro
>teaches me a swing which works for almost everybody but
>me, merely because I cannot implement it in a correct
>manner. I cannot say that my pro taught me something 
>wrong; and, I cannot say that the swing is not "correct."

:)

>Assuming you have a better understanding of a "concept" and
>its "applications," we can move forward. If Islam is not
>practised by Pakistanis or as you said it if "Islam is used
>to hayou do not understand the gravity of
>this statement or probably you understand the culture and
>law practised in Pakistan is "Islamic." Please visit
>Pakistan to clarify your own statement. If a society allows
>nurturing of a secular state; abuse of women; ignorance of
>poor, powerless and needy citizens; indifference towards
>Muslim nations beseiged by invaders; and hungry muslims
>suffering in other countries and still be "ISLAMIC" where
>it is an "ABSOLUTE DETERMINANT" in your opinion, THEN I must
>say that my brothor 11 years. At that time they did
>not want to discuss "free elections" or "democratic rule" in
>Pakistan. However, they can use these solgans if a ruler
>does not "comply unconditionally" to their terms. Then
>democracy becomes number 1 priority in those country.
>
>Democracy in third world or Arab countries provides the West
>with a wide open choice of IDIOTS who wholeheartedly take
>care of their master's interest ignoring the needs of their
>own people. I agree with you that democracy is better (than
>Martial Law), but only if itse
>very well - so well that even most of us support it,blindly.
>Pakistanis should not be complaining about US attitude, but
>learning from it. If there is somebody who can take GOOD
>care of our interest, it is us - not US. The West takes care
>of its own interests, so should we. Therefore, instead of
>democracy and secularism in Pakistan, we should establish
>Islamic society that takes care of its own people first. It
>should treat poor, needy, non-muslims and foreigners in
>country equally and fairly. Leaving Islam will leave us
>NOWHERE.
>
>
>You've a good one now ...

You bet!! BTW, have you read most of my responses to this "concept",
"application" arguement before. Do you realize that it is this arguement
that I started with?

You are just making a fool of yourself by jumping in with arguements that
have already been discussed. Let me repeat it briefly. Irrespective of
what Islam is, that it is not widely understood or practiced, suggests
that Islam fails to achieve what it aims. Irrespective of what Qur'aan
says, the usefulness of the concept can be better judged by its influence.
If Islam fails to achieve what it says it aims for, in the event of Allah's
existence, either He doesn't know how to achieve it (which cannot be true
if Islam is the true religion), or he doesn't want Islam to achieve those
objectives (which again goes against Islam's being the true religion).

Since you seem to find analogies better in comprehending difficult concepts,
allow me to suggest one. If you have something and you don't want someone
to steal it, just putting a note on it saying "don't steal it" would hardly
suffice... one would recommend using better precautions to ensure that a theft
doesn't occur. Although the note solution clearly states the desired response
it loses credit for not being able to solve the problem. In the presence
of cultures where a note is sufficient, it may be a good solution, but if a
theft does occur, it clearly points out a flaw. How this is a useful analogy,
I'm leaving as an exercise.

I never said Islam is the absolute determinant in Pakistan's policies.
Although what I meant is quite apparent from the context, I should
probably have been wary of people who might like to misunderstand.
When I used the word "Islam", I did not mean the TRUE ISLAM... but the
name Islam, and the assumed supremeness associated with this vague
entity that aids assumed justification of acts in violation of basic
human rights.

>
>ARIF SHAMIM
>

Nadeem

-- 
Nadeem Jamali                                     jamalin@newton.ccs.tuns.ca
						 
School of Computer Science			  
Technical University of Nova Scotia		  (902)420-7882  
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan