HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: 890530m@dragon.acadiau.ca (Darren MacKenzie)
Subject: Re: Cold Marriage
Keywords: Marriage
Organization: Acadia University
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 23:02:36 GMT

[...sadening stuff deleted...]

Normally on this group, I am just looking for a flame-war, or shouting
my opinions (that noone listens to, anyway) out at everybody, or just
getting in a good E-mail war.  It's a great stress reliever, and I find
it very fun.  But every once in a while I see something that really does
touch my heart and I feel I should be serious (I'm rarely serious about a
post).

It almost hurt my feeling to read your post about your wife.  I have had
relationships like this in the past.  Everything's great, good fun, great
sex...and then suddenly, there's no respect or affection coming my way
anymore.

The first thing I would suggest is to try TALKING to your wife.  Tell her
how you feel.  Tell her you feel hurt.  Tell her you WANT affection.  Tell
her you NEED affection.  Try to discuss it all with her.  Ask her WHY
she's so hard to give you affection.

If all this doesn't change anything, then it hurts me to say that I just
don't think the magic is there anymore, and maybe it IS time for you to
leave.  If worst came to worst...you could TELL HER..."Shape up, or
I'm outta here...!" (It almost seems threatening, but maybe she'd open
her eyes).

If she loves you, she'll respect your feelings and your desires.  If she
can't repect you, or want to give you affection, then it's time to look
for a new lover.

This is just my opinion.  I'm sure noone will like it, but it's how I feel;
and like I said, I've been through it before (I'd say probably a lot of men
have been through it before).  My $0.02 worth...I hope it helps.

-Darren
-AKA "The Doctor"

-- 
=============================================================================== The Commodore Amiga 4000 - 24 bit          16,777,216 colors (4096^2)!!         ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Buster: "Say goodnight, Babs."                                                 
Babs  : "Goodnight, Babs."                                                      I'm tiny, I'm toony, and I'm a little looney!                                   ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Darren MacKenzie                                                                ("The Doctor")                                                                  890530m@aucs.acadiau.ca
===============================================================================
Newsgroups: soc.women,alt.feminism,soc.men
From: nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Self Appreciation (was: Re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 14:47:34 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA

In article <BxzE9z.11A@news.cso.uiuc.edu> levine@symcom.math.uiuc.edu (Lenore Levine) writes:
>nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson) writes:
>
>>  If an MMPI (Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory --
>>  a standard psychological test) were to be administered 
>>  to transexuals and non-transexuals, what differences would
>>  it reveal?   Would the MMPI for biologically male transexuals
>>  be more similar to non-transexual biological females?
>
>>---peter
>
>An interesting question. 
>
>However, I wonder how valid the MMPI is at all...
>
>My informal study of it, in the 70's, certainly led me to question its
>validity -- especially in the face of cultural change. 

 MMPI is, of course, old technology -- no doubt there are better
 tests now.   But even a culturally biased test could be useful
 since, as I indicated, an interesting question is whether the 
 traits that transexuals associate with their desired sex are
 cultural or something more fundamental?

 The two questions I thought the transexual issue raises were:

   Can we go beyond Wendy's assertion that we cannot discuss 
   with words or other descriptive means what it "feels like"
   to be female -- i.e., is there some more objective means at 
   looking at the internal mental state associated with 
   gender identity, such as a personality test?  

   Is there some essential psychological nature to being a
   male or a female?  To assert that one "feels like a female"
   implies that there is some unique way that females feel
   by virtue of "femaleness" and not merely due to the social
   experience of being female and being treated like one in
   this world (since transexuals wouldn't have had this exper-
   ience).   If females are psychologically different for reasons
   that transcend social factors then this has interesting 
   implications for feminist theory.

 Are there any feminist scholars who have taken a position on
 the philosophical implications of transexualism?


---peter



Newsgroups: soc.women
From: dwelch@mpd.tandem.com (Dan Welch)
Newsgroups: soc.women,soc.men
Subject: Re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?
Date: 17 Nov 92 15:48:08 GMT
Followup-To: soc.women
Organization: Tandem Computers (MPD) Austin, TX

In article <1992Nov16.194036.25092@cbnews.cb.att.com> lib@cbnews.cb.att.com (Lib) writes:
>In article <johnr.721842082@ee.uts.EDU.AU> johnr@ee.uts.edu.au (John Reekie) writes:
>>I am curious to know why you would attach such importance to the
>>presence of an Elle calendar on a man's wall that you
>>would decide not to date him on that fact alone. Is this such
>>a telling indicator about every other aspect of his personality?

>You're correct, it's not a telling indicator about every aspect of his
>personality but it tells you enough to know not to date him.

Just what exactly does it tell you about him, Lib?  I'm curious, since
I am the sort of person who might hang up a Elle calendar, and I want to
check how closely your interpretation of my personality fits reality.
Without having seen me, talked to me, and perhaps not even having learned
my name, I would like to know why you consider me unfit for dating.

Anyone else care to answer, as well?

Daniel Welch
----
Jesus called me on the phone today.  He said, "Son, I *love* you."  He
speaks English pretty well, considering it's a second language for him.
Newsgroups: soc.women,alt.feminism,soc.men
From: bhv@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris)
Subject: Re: Self Appreciation (was: Re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?)
Organization: Motorola, CCR&D, CORP, Schaumburg, IL
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 17:49:49 GMT

In article <By0rrA.7Kw@apollo.hp.com> nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson) writes:

)   Is there some essential psychological nature to being a
)   male or a female?  To assert that one "feels like a female"
)   implies that there is some unique way that females feel
)   by virtue of "femaleness" and not merely due to the social
)   experience of being female and being treated like one in
)   this world (since transexuals wouldn't have had this exper-
)   ience).   If females are psychologically different for reasons
)   that transcend social factors then this has interesting 
)   implications for feminist theory.
)
) Are there any feminist scholars who have taken a position on
) the philosophical implications of transexualism?

Here's my $.02 on the issue.

It is not unknown for babies born male to be surgically made 'female'
due to surgical and other accidents.

A fair number of them were able to adjust to their gender, regardless of
the fact that they may have been 'born male'.  I don't recall the
statistics offhand - there was some info in the Encylopedia Britanica,
however.  I think the majority 'adjusted', though (I'd have to double
check this.  Of course, one can rightly ask - what is 'adjustment' and
how is it measured?.)

So I think that it is not *automatic* for a person to have an image of
themselves as being male/female based on their biology.  I wouldn't be
surprised if it were more common (I lack the data) for people with the
'wrong' physiology to be unhappy with their gender.

There is also some data that show that pre-natal horomone environments can
have a strong influence on a person's personality - there was some data
on women exposed to testosterone / androgens while they were developing
in the womb having a tendency to develop various 'tomboy' traits, also in the
Britanica.  (Sorry that this is so vague, I don't recall the details, anyone
interested in more details can use this as a place to start looking, though.)

All in all, I believe that biology does have a strong influence on how people
develop, but cultural and environmental  factors are also very important,
most likely just as important.

I think the tendency, on the whole, is to underestimate the natural
variance between different people, for whatever reason (biology, prenatal
enviornment, culture, home life, ....) - and to tend to try to put
people into the 'culturally approved' roles/stereotypes.  The fundemental
reality I see is that people are different - and I am for the lessening
of culturally pre-defined roles for people as much as possible myself.

Newsgroups: soc.women,alt.feminism,soc.culture.iranian
From: mina@seas.gwu.edu (Mina E. Marshall)
Subject: voices and visions of iranian women artists
Organization: George Washington University
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 15:47:32 GMT

I was very exicted to see the following program announcement at one
of the Iranian Grocery stores.  I thought I would share it with every 
body.  I hope people in D.C. area enjoy it!  
	                  
                         Women's Center 
                  Foundation for Iranian Studies
                           Presents


                       VOICES AND VISIONS
           IRANIAN WOMEN ARTISTS, DIRECTORS AND WRITERS


                     Sunday 22 November 1992
                The George Washington University 


2:00-3:00 PM Exhibition of Paintings by:
	       Maryam Javeheri (New York)
	       Farideh Lashai (Tehran)
	       Rafat Mosaddeqi (Washington, D.C.)

             Exhibition of Portraits by:
               Maryam Zandi (Tehran)

             Exhibition of Ceramics by:
               Maryam Saloor (Tehran)
               Malekeh Nayiny (Paris)

3:00-4:00 PM Reading and Discussion of Recent Publications by:
	       Nahid Rachlin from Veils (English)
	       Goli Taraghi from Images From Bygone Days (Persian) 

4:00-4:30 PM Reception, Book Exhibit and Sale, Conversation with
	     Authors and Artists

4:30-6:30 PM Viewing of "Nargess," A film by Rakhshan Bani-Etemad, 
	     winner of Best Director Award at the 1370 (1991) Fajr
	     International Film Festival

		Marvin Center, Continental Ballroom
 		 The George Washington University
   		      800 21st Street, N.W.
			Washington, D.C.
		   Tickets $ts $10 at the Gate 
Xref: sparky soc.women:19841 soc.men:19518
From: scridd@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov (JEFF)
Newsgroups: soc.women,soc.men
Subject: Re: Naked Man on Campus
Keywords: public nudity
Date: 18 Nov 92 15:30:00 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Nov13.183217.29448@adobe.com>, kendall@adobe.com (Janice Kendall) writes...
> 
> There's been much discussion of "freedom of expression" in regards to
> calendars and such.  
> 
> I was wondering what reaction people have to the guy at UC-Berkeley
> (where else) who expresses himself by attending class naked.  (The
> officials called him in to discuss it and he even appeared at the
> meeting nude, so they cancelled the meeting and passed a special
> regulation against attending classes nude.  I thought there was a 
> law against exposing genitals publicly anyway.)

As far as I know, Berkeley does not have such a law.  There are laws
against "indecent exposure" but they require that such exposure is
performed with a lewd and indecent intent.

> Guys - would it bother you being around a naked man in public?

I could get used to it.

> Would it bother you if you knew he was gay?

Not particularly. 

> How many of you think nudist colonies are about sexuality?

Not me.  This is a myth perpetuated by the religious right, the
sensationalist press, and pornography.

> Another aspect (while thinking about a woman expressing herself in the
> same manner):  If he walks around nude and is raped by another man, 
> does he deserve it?  was it his fault?

Definitely not.

> Just causing trouble on Friday the 13th...
>   
> Janice Kendall    kendall@adobe.com    ...!{decwrl|sun}!adobe!kendall
> 
>      Don't Panic!  Clinton will be our *42*nd President.
Newsgroups: soc.women,alt.feminism,soc.men
From: jay@uuserv.cc.utah.edu (Jay Deuel)
Subject: Re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?
Organization: The University of Utah
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 01:11:47 GMT

>It is true that men tend to value women for their beauty, while men are
>more commonly valued for their accomplishments or wealth. This tends to
>channel the efforts of the sexes into different activities.

Sounds like you ought to spend a little time in the ALT.BALDSPOT group!
It's interesting how often I've heard that aging women are let go, but
I don't see many bald men starting a carrer in television, movies, 
politics, etc.  Though I appreciate you using the terms "tend to" & "
more commonly", why does it seem the nerd is always a short-balding man?

--Jay
Newsgroups: soc.women
From: llp7q@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Linda L. Phillips)
Subject: Call for Artwork and Art Papers
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 14:29:23 GMT

              CALL FOR ARTWORK AND ART PAPERS
               FOR THE SPRING 1993 ISSUE OF
               IRIS: A JOURNAL ABOUT WOMEN


IRIS features articles, original fiction and poetry, art, book reviews, humor,
news, and personal essays focusing on women's issues.  We write for an intel-
ligent and varied audience of both sexes.  We are a non-profit organization,
staffed by volunteers, and publish twice yearly, in November and April.

If you are interested in contributing to IRIS, please submit two clear copies
of all manuscripts, and use language sensitive to differences in gender,
sexual orientation, and race.  Follow the parenthetical MLA style.  Final
decisions rest with the editorial board.  Send SASE if you wish your work
returned.

Original artwork should be submitted in the form of high quality black and
white prints or halftones.  We welcome work pertaining to women's issues
and women's involvement in the arts, and are particularly interested in
featuring experimental, less conventional work.

Art features may be reviews, interviews, or essays on contemporary or
historical artists working in any media.  Features should be 500-1000 words,
typed and double-spaced, and include black and white prints or halftones of
the work discussed.

                     SUBMIT FIRST DRAFT OR ABSTRACT BY JAN 8 1993

                          ADDRESS ALL CONTRIBUTIONS TO

ART OR ART FEATURES EDITOR,IRIS,BOX 323 HEALTH SCIENCES CENTER, UNIVERSITY
OF VIRGINIA, CHARLOTTESVILLE, VA  22908    (TEL) (804) 924-4500

Newsgroups: soc.women
From: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy)
Newsgroups: soc.women,alt.feminism,soc.men
Subject: Re: Practise what you preach? (was:what is sexist?)
Date: 18 Nov 92 11:00:21
Organization: Natural Language Incorporated
	<MUFFY.92Nov17113118@anableps.berkeley.edu>
	<1ebp37INNdch@transfer.stratus.com>
	<MUFFY.92Nov17142550@anableps.berkeley.edu>
	<1992Nov18.172127.29833@dragon.acadiau.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
In-reply-to: 890530m@dragon.acadiau.ca's message of 18 Nov 92 17:21:27 GMT


In article <1992Nov18.172127.29833@dragon.acadiau.ca> 890530m@dragon.acadiau.ca (Darren MacKenzie) writes:
>muffy@anableps.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy) writes:

>>In article <1ebp37INNdch@transfer.stratus.com> dswartz@sw.stratus.com (Dan Swartzendruber) writes:
>>> Oh, you're not one of the avowed feminists who feel men shouldn't post to
>>> soc.women (unless they agree with feminist viewpoints), since soc.women is
>>> "womyn space"?

>>Exactly.

>I then assume, Muffy, that you also agree that women should not post to
>soc.men unless they agree with male viewpoints, since soc.men is MEN space?
>-Doc

Boy, this is the week for reading comprehension problems, isn't it?  As
it says above, I am *NOT* one of those feminists.  Therefore, I do not
GIVE A DAMN about who posts what to soc.men or soc.women.  Get it?

Muffy
--

Muffy Barkocy                               muffy@mica.berkeley.edu
~Weavers' fingers flying on the loom/patterns shift too fast to be
 discerned/all these years of thinking/ended up like this/in front
 of all this beauty/understanding nothing~ - Bruce Cockburn
Xref: sparky soc.women:20219 alt.feminism:4900 soc.men:19857
From: cfaks@ux1.cts.eiu.edu (Alice Sanders)
Subject: Re: getting fired after making sexual harrassment complaint - illegal?
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 13:25:22 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Eastern Illinois University

>>In article <1992Nov11.075320.27151@leland.Stanford.EDU> farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf) writes:
>>>
>>>At the risk of sounding as if I'm giving you the brushoff, it really
>>>doesn't matter what "others" on the net might think.  What matters is
>>>what a competent lawyer (hopefully whose specialty is employees'
>>>rights and/or sexual harassment cases) thinks.  This woman you're
>>>talking about needs to consult a lawyer, not listen to our ramblings
>>>on here.  Please encourage her to do so.

Alice Sanders writes:
>>
>>ExcuseME!  I have a right to ask for insights and information on a
>>subject.  Of course, she is seeing a lawyer.  But at the time I posted
>>this, she had just been fired and was really raw meat, looking for how to
>>proceed.  You are reading it several days later.  
>

Charleen writes:
>I'm by no means one of ljf's biggest fans, but you're being grossly unfair.
>

No, all I said was I had a right to ask what others think, so it matters
to ME, even if it doesn't matter to Ms. Farthing.  Nothing unfair about
that.  Besides, she and I have communicated by e-mail, and I don't believe
any misunderstanding continues.

>She gave you excellent advice.  Far too often, people come on the net and
>ask for opinions and treat those opinions as if they are authoritative,
>

That isn't what I was doing.

>In a sexual harassment case, the only advice you--oops, "your friend"--should
>take is from your--oops, "her"--lawyer.
>

 REALLY silly.

>The fact that you reacted in such a hostile manner to ljf's suggestion
>suggests to me that you--oops, "your friend"--don't believe that the
>harassment case is as strong and clear-cut as you state, and that your
>posting was simply a bid for sympathy.
>

Illogical.

>Ironically, here's where the difference in male/female communication styles
>comes in:  women tend to offer sympathy when a problem is broached, men
>tend to offer solutions.  Yet the one person who I thought was a woman offered
>a solution, and at least two men offered sympathy.  Strange.
>

This is perhaps the real point you are trying to make.  I really don't
know for sure, but you certainly seem to have some axe to grind.

>Charleen
 A far fig newton.


I know when I am being baited by someone with an agenda of her own.  So I won't be
responding to any more of these messages intended to get me into an
argument.  This is just pointless and gets completely off the subject.
I don't understand this kind of use of the network.  Sometimes there can
be real misunderstandings.  But this is just absolutely pointless and a
waste of energy. 

Alice

Newsgroups: soc.women,alt.feminism,soc.men
From: biesel@javelin.sim.es.com (Heiner Biesel)
Subject: Re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?
Organization: Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp.
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 18:19:14 GMT

muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy) writes:

>...[]... The way I see it,
>it is much easier for a person to develop and change their personality
>than it is for them to change their looks (which they are basically born
>with).  

Ah! This, I think, gets to the heart of the matter. Personality is under
our immediate control, and looks aren't, or at least so Muffy believes.

Is it true, though? Much is made of the effect of early environment upon
later character traits and habits, so much so that people are said to
be "maimed" for life by episodes of childhood abuse. Similarly, several
long threads on this net belabor the alleged effects of advertising,
society, etc. on shaping the behavior and the values of women. The gist
of much of this is the contention - true IMO - that human behavior is
generally shaped by the environment in which people find themselves,
and it is difficult to resist these influences. This in turn implies that
peronality and character, while subject to some change, is also not easily
controlled, by the individual, much less significantly altered without 
great effort and desire.

Looks, by contrast, require merely an investment in cosmetics and plastic 
surgery, something that would appear, to me at least, to require much less
time and willpower than to change one's personality significantly.

Regards,
       H. Biesel
From: mikep@hpmwtd.sr.hp.com (Mike Powell)
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 04:49:59 GMT
Subject: Re: Sexual victimization of 13 year old boy
Organization: HP Santa Rosa Site (SRSD MWTD)
Newsgroups: soc.women

	
	ug...

	I botched the wording of a point I was trying to make in the
	previous posting...  I should correct it...

	Ahhh, what the heck.  Someone will 'kindly' point it out to
	me anyway, so I'll deal with it then...

	-Mike-
From: eleanor@cbnews.cb.att.com (eleanor.j.evans)
Newsgroups: soc.women
Subject: Re: Self Appreciation (was: Re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?)
Date: 17 Nov 92 22:12:25 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: AT&T

In article <2882@devnull.mpd.tandem.com> dwelch@mpd.tandem.com (Dan Welch) writes:
>
>....If you don't
>believe this, check out an issue of "Ms." magazine.  Count the number
>of adds for perfumes, make-up, clothing, breast enlargements, etc.  And
>remember, this is a *feminist* magazine.

Why don't you check one out?  NO ads.  NONE.  Whatsoever.


Eleanor
Newsgroups: soc.women
From: greg.grainger@rose.com (greg grainger)
Subject: Re: Beards vs. Make-u
Organization: Rose Media Inc, Toronto, Ontario.
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 23:33:17 GMT
X-Gated-By: Usenet <==> RoseMail Gateway (v1.70)


Date Entered: 11-23-92 18:21
On Nov. 23, cgates@mitre.org (Curt Gates) wrote:

C(G>In article <By5zs1.H4s@iai.kfk.de> seldner@hdi3sun.kfk.de (David Seldner)
C(G>writes:

C(G>> Psychologically, men who have beards want to
C(G>> hide something, they don't want to "show their face".

C(G>Ohhh, no! Another cross-posting from pop.psychology.  I dont know if I can
C(G>stand all this profound insight into human behavior.  The real reason men
C(G>shave is because they are afraid of losing their face in a flame war.

 . . . or at their own hands using a razor early in the morning . . .

C(G>> What I'd like to know: why is it that so many women like ...
C(G>> men with beards?

Unfortunately, not nearly enough do.

                                                Cheers,
                                                Greg.

Greg Grainger
Toronto, Ontario.
greg.grainger@rose.com
6:02:32 pm, Mon 11-23-1992.

        Personal policy statement: Neither flames nor flame-bait
        will be responded to.
---
   OLX 2.2   Honesty: Fear of being caught.
   RM 2.00 : RoseNet<=>Usenet Gateway : Rose Media 416-733-2285
Newsgroups: soc.women