HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: grey@futon.SFSU.EDU (Herbert Leong)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Ammo buyiing (was NJ gunlaws)
Date: 20 Dec 92 15:33:38 GMT

viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:
#grey@futon.SFSU.EDU (Herbert Leong) writes:
#
##I have the same problem:
##I was told when I bought me TimberWolf (.357 mag) that I should state  
##"I am purchasing this ammo for a carbine that shoots xxx caliber  
##cartrige, I will  not be used in any type of handgun"  have the clerk  
##write it on the sales slip, etc.  It boils down to will the shop  
##accept it or not.
#
#	I got a bit annoyed at having to fill out that form when I 
#purchased .30-30 ammunition at a Kmart last summer, and the resulting
#post and festivities on t.p.g. has lead me to believe this requirement
#was removed in the Gun Owners Protection Act of (I think) 1986.  Some
#shops still do it, but I don't think it's necessary.  I bought .45ACP
#just a few weeks ago, not at Kmart, and filled out nothing.

That 30-30 incident would have requied id for age 18 only.
Are you 21?  If that is the case you don't need to say the above
because you can legaly purchase handguns, I on the otherhand, am 20
so if I go in to buy pistol caliber ammo, I am buying ammo made for
a weapon that I can not legaly own (except for carbines chambered for
handgun cartriges) 

Then again, I could be wrong. I have not bought any handgun type ammo in 
a long time (I buy a lot of each caliber at a time to avoid the annoyance
as much as possible).

/herb
From: hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: *Nice* ranges are a myth?
Date: 15 Dec 92 03:42:04 GMT
Organization: The Cat Factory

In article <lairdb.723858257@crash.cts.com> lairdb@crash.cts.com writes:

}... Somewhere out there are ranges
}like the one shown in Beverly Hills Cop, where you go to the Juice Bar 
}after shooting to await the delivery of your cleaned firearm and your
}hand collected brass.  ...

To the best of my knowledge, that range doesn't exist.  There _is_ a
"Beverly Hills Rifle and Gun Club," but it's not in Beverly Hills and,
IMHO, the only things there that live up to the name are their prices and
their sweatshirts.

}Anybody found one yet?  What's the nicest range you *have* seen?  What
}would you *want* at a range that you don't have today?  (For example,
}I'd like to have the gadgets that make the carrier stop at the pre-set
}distances.)

The best indoor range I've found around here, IMHO, is the "Firing Line"
-- a franchise which I suspect may have national ambitions.  Their prices
are the best around and their facilities are more then adequate (good
sound proofing and air conditioning, reasonable lighting).  My only
complaints are their selection of rental guns is somewhat limited and they
give out NRA Basic Pistol Marksmanship certificates for completing a 3
hour course that only vaguely resembles the actual, 10 hour NRA Basic
Pistol Course.

Outdoors, the Angeles Ranges in the Angeles National Forest are pretty
good.  I also go up to A Place to Shoot in Saugus now and then.  No
complaints about either.

The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com)
Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp                Do not meddle in the affairs of
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.   (310) 450-9111, x2483  dragons, for you are crunchy
Santa Monica, CA  90405                        and go well with ketchup.
From: gt4458c@prism.gatech.edu (John Stephens Cronin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Use of Lethal Force in the Defense of a loved one.
Date: 12 Dec 92 00:20:15 GMT
Organization: Common Container Liberation Front


In article <viking.723973300@vincent1.iastate.edu> viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:
->
->	"Good afternoon, officer.  What seems to be the problem?  I
->didn't come to a full stop back there?  Certainly I'll show you my
->license and registration.  Get out of the car?  Of course.  Just so you
->don't get suprised, I have a Colt 1911 in a shoulder holster under my
->left armpit, and the permit is in my wallet in my right rear pocket.
->You're welcome to examine each -- I don't want to cause you any problems."
->
->	What do you bet you're given a warning?  It's amazing how a
->polite person does when clearly guilty but keeps the officer from having
->a bad day.  Make their life easy, and they'll return the favor most times.

I completely agree.  I have found most officers will treat you right
if you co-operate, don't be a smartass, and above all, don't lie to them.

John Cronin
-- 
John Cronin	Internet: gt4458c@prism.gatech.edu	Phone: (404) 876-1419
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Live each day as if it's your last.  One day you'll be right.  -- me
Lighten up, you're gonna die whether you have fun or not.      -- me again
From: weba@colossus.cs.hut.fi (Veijo Paavali L{nsikunnas)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Guns by mail order
Date: 17 Dec 92 18:58:27 GMT
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, CS lab


Terve,

Does anybody know any companies that sell guns by mail order?
Are there any restrictions about selling them abroad?
How about handguns? (I'm interested in Uberti SAA .44mag and
some exotic .22LR rifles that aren't available here in Finland)

---
Veijo Lansikunnas               If you are going to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.
weba@niksula.cs.hut.fi                                       - Il Brutto
From: bobd@marune.acs.ohio-state.edu (Bob DeBula)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .41 AE
Date: 15 Dec 92 23:33:54 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University

In article <9212142136.AA07255@scorpio.ic.cmc.ca> keith@scorpio.ic.cmc.ca (Keith de Solla) writes:
#Does the .41AE exist in any way, shape or form anymore?  Does anyone

Yes.

#sell .41AE brass and reloading dies?  Do enough (any?) factory loads

Yes, Samson (IMI) markets loaded ammo and presumably brass. I saw
an ad in an October Shotgun News which listed .41AE brass for
$19 per hundred (not cheap). RCBS definitely made the dies
(I have a set which I mail ordered for $26 in the Fall of 1991).
The factory loads from Samson are 170 grain (I think JHP) and
200 grain (TFMJ, I think). I can check through SGN and get you
the name of the company selling brass if you need it.

#exist to allow it to qualify for IPSC?
#

Unknown to me.

#Rumour was that a kit was available to convert a Browning Hi-Power
#to .41AE.  Is this kit available anywhere?  It would seem like an
#easy way to move up to major power factor in IPSC.

There definitely was such a kit (they used to ad it in SGN).
They had them for the Colt Government model, Colt Combat Commander,
and the Browning High Power. I ordered a Browning High Power 
conversion through a dealer over a year ago & it never came
(could be problems with the dealer though). I have heard
that the HP kit wasn't just a "drop in" for most High Powers
and required some small work on the frame to feed properly
(which would make me hesitant).

There are/were also pistols made in .41AE. Tanfoglio (Excam) made
one with a twelve round magazine (the highest capacity .41AE of
which I am aware). Also, I believe that some TZ-75 (CZ-75 clone)
came in 9mm and 41AE as a package (and may still).

Bullet selection for .41AE is somewhat restrictive as it uses a 
true .41 (.410") bullet. Therefore, you bullet selection is
restricted to bullets intended for use from a .41 Magnum 
revolver. Some of the 210 grain truncated full metal jacket 
bullets (intended for silhouette, I believe) are probably
your best best for feeding.

I hope this helps.

-- 
==========================================================================
              Disclaimer: These are my views, not the U's

        "If it's in the paper it must be true!" --- D. Doright
From: patrick.eves@canrem.com (Patrick Eves)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: french foreign legion
Date: 20 Dec 92 01:25:33 GMT


SY>again. Can anyone tell me what type of guns(and something about them) the
SY>French Foreign Legion carry. I keep seeing pictures of them from Somalia
SY>and don't know what it is.

Hi, Stephen.

The rifle you see the FFL carrying is the FAMAS.  This stands for Fusil
Automatique MAS, or Automatic Rifle MAS, where MAS is the intials of the
state-owned manufacturer of the piece.  It's a 5.56 x 45mm NATO chambering,
firing semi, full auto, or 3 rd. burst from a 25 round magazine.  According
to Small Arms of the World, it weighs 7.5 lbs w/o magazine, is 29.8 inches long,
and has a 19.2 inch barrel.  The suppressor functions as a bayonet mount and
grenade launcher.
---
 ~ DeLuxe} 1.25 #12341 ~ CLOSE COVER BEFORE STRIKING
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
From: DHBHM@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu (Bruce H. McIntosh)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Need help identifying a Smith
Date: 15 Dec 92 23:34:34 GMT
Organization: University of Florida, NERDC


I've fallen heir to a Smith & Wesson .38 revolver.  It has a fairly large
frame, 6-round cylinder and a 1-1/2" or 2" barrel.  Stamped on the frame
underneath the arm that carries the cylinder is the notation:
 
Mod 10 - 5
 
Does this mean that the gun is a Model 10 and that it originally sported
a 5" barrel?  If not, what model is it?  I'd like to replace the wood grips
with some larger rubber ones, or rather, get my brother to do it as a
Christmas present :-) ), and I need to let him know the model # of the gun.
 
I did some informal plinking with it the other day and was rather surprised
at how accurate it was, given the miniscule barrel.  Would there be any
advantages as far as accuracy goes in having a 'smith put a longer barrel
on the gun?  I'm assuming that all one needs do to swap the barrel is drive
out the pin, switch the barrel and drive in a new pin.  Am I wrong about this?
 
Bruce H. McIntosh    brucem@neufhou.mail.ufl.edu            Jesus has risen!
                     bhm@cis.ufl.edu
                     dhbhm@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu
 UF Housing user support on IBM Aggravation System/400 :-)
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Support trailing-edge technology!
From: emory!ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: aimpoint on rifle?
Date: 16 Dec 92 14:33:53 GMT
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group


The biggest drawback to the Aimpoint on a defensive gun is that the
battery is liable to go dead when you need it most. Just like the
battery is always dead in my electronic camera when the "perfect"
picture opportunity arises.

Gary
From: bbx!bbxrbk!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Russ Kepler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .50 BMG bullpup
Date: 17 Dec 92 12:17:57 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization

In article <9212160332.AA01221@hp-vcd.vcd.hp.com> dmunroe@hpvclmun.vcd.hp.com (Dave Munroe) writes:
#Glen Call writes (re: a bullpup in .50BMG):
##What have you heard about this?  I try to follow Barrett, but I'm not aware of
##anyone else making .50BMG weapons for the civilian market.
#
#The latest issue of their newsletter, Very High Power, arrived yesterday
#and describes the new "Sugg-50" rifle - a .50 BMG bullpup.  The photo shows
#a 19 year old girl (115 lbs) shooting it.  The recoil is said to be very
#mild.  I always shoot my 82A1, which I think is quite mild in comparison
#to the wallop you get with a McMillan.  Another photo shows the titanium and
#steel breech of the Sugg-50; this is a very strong gun and, surprisingly, it
#weighs only 25 lbs.

The clamshell brake on the muzzle of a .50 can be *very* effective in
reducing recoil (at the cost of increasing muzzle blast to the sides).
I've heard a well tuned .50 fired with a very light hold and virtually
no recoil.

Even knowing that I'd be scared to fire a bullpup .50...

#E-mail me if you want additional details.

Consider this a request for the maker and cost.  I'd be interested in
hearing about it at least.

-- 
Russ Kepler, posting from home   bbxrbk!russ@bbx.basis.com
Will hack unix for food
From: Ray.Keefer@EBay.Sun.COM (Ray Keefer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: More newbie questions
Date: 17 Dec 92 12:20:08 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.

#For folks with kids, I was wondering how they handle the toy gun debate.
#I'm definitely going to take my kids to the range, as soon as they show
#interest in shooting but I'm not sure how I feel about toy guns.  Part of me
#thinks that (my) kids should not have any (that they should have no slightest
#indication that guns are toys), part of me thinks it's a non-issue.  What
#do other people out there think?

I think most kids know that toy guns are toys. It's when they treat
guns like toys that problems occur. Teach them the difference. Teach
them not to play with guns. Never call your guns, "toys" or "my toys".
I correct my wife when ever she calls my guns "toys" by calling them 
"tools".

When I married my wife, she already had three kids (ages 10, 8 and 6). So
when I moved in I pulled out my biggest rifle, a Garand, for show and tell. 
I let them hold it. Try to aim it. They could barely lift it and the stock
was too long to be comfortable to them. I picked the Garand on purpose
because of its size (I didn't show them my AR-7 because it does
look like a toy). I told them that it is not a toy and it is a 
big and dangerous machine. If they ever want to look at it them, then
ask. Otherwise stay away. Seemed to work, the oldest is 17 now and
all three are still alive.

When that 6 year old boy was 10 he started to show an interest.
So I started him on the AR-7. One round at a time. He was afraid
to shoot it the first time, so I fired it to show him how
gentle it was. I guess he figured his ears would burst and
he would be thrown onto his rear. After that demonstration
he was eager to try.

He is now 13 and enjoys going out with me. He prefers the AR-7
since .22lr is cheap, but he is learning how to shoot 1911A1 and
next time out he wants a chance at the Garand.

Regard,
Ray
From: bz269@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (James D. Del Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: *Nice* ranges are a myth?
Date: 16 Dec 92 03:08:44 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)


Whatcom County Plantation Rifle range sounds better than 
anything you guys have written about yet.

Indoor pistol range with electronic target controllers, settings from
7-25 yds, with settings so the targets "dodge" and turn sideways
for whatever matches or practice requires that.

Outdoor pistol and smallbore rifle range (7.62x39 and .308 also ok
apparently) up to 100 yds.  Metal sill. for .22 pistol and rifle.  

Largebore rifle range (I don't know what a these people shoot,
but it's far away, and still very loud).  Very large, 300 yds?

$5 per day to shoot, or $50 for the year.
From: lriggins@afit.af.mil (L. Maurice Riggins)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: RECOIL REDUCTION
Date: 15 Dec 92 00:54:54 GMT
Organization: Air Force Institute of Technology

In article <1992Dec14.004048.23139@ncsu.edu> hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer) writes:
|  You didn't mention that the ports (holes) are near the muzzle
|end of the barrel.  I would also think that such a fact need not be
|mentioned, except that this weekend I heard about a man who had
|his shotgun ported and that as a result he was looking for a
|replacement barrel.  Yes - you guessed it - the ports were made
|at the chamber end of the barrel!

Talk about blinding flash!
 
|  I've never ported anything myself, but have had a barrel
|ported by Magna-Port.  I was very pleased at the reduction in
|recoil and in muzzle lift.  They weren't dramatic, but were
|substantial enough to greatly improve how the gun reacted
|in my hands.

For what it's worth, a friend has an 11-87 SPS-T identical to mine except
the forcing cone was lengthened a little and it was ProPorted right behind
the choke tube.  While mine will cycle with 1 1/8 oz 3 dram loads (and even
slowly with 1 1/8 oz 2 3/4 dram loads), his requires 1 1/4 oz 3 1/4 dram 
loads as a minimum.  But even with these bigger loads, his still is MUCH
more comfortable and controllable than mine is with the 1 1/8 oz 2 3/4 dram
loads!

-- 
Maurice               INTERNET:  lriggins@afit.af.mil
From: wa3wbu!john@uunet.UU.NET (John Gayman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: More on dry firing
Date: 18 Dec 92 13:35:53 GMT
Organization: @ WA3WBU, Marysville, PA


In article <1992Dec16.014824.12112@ttinews.tti.com>, hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath) writes:
# In article <921212063832_76334.1331_EHJ22-2@CompuServe.COM> 76334.1331@CompuServe.COM (Brian Millin) writes:
# }
# }USPSA rules state that the procedure for "hammer down" is to drop the
# }hammer by means of the trigger. There is even a provision for pistols with
# }a magazine safety - you put in an empty mag and then do the deed.
# }
# Well, _I'm_ going to use the decocker lever as God and SIG intended, rules
# or no rules.
# (Seriously, would this be a rules violation?  Sounds pretty silly, if so).
# 


    Yes, this would be a violation of the rules. The rule is intended to make
certain the gun is unloaded. It has already been visually inspected so the
hammer-drop while pointed down range insures that there is NO cartridge in
the chamber. There have been times (very infrequent) when the gun HAS gone
bang when the trigger is pulled. If this shooter had been allowed to use
his decocking lever he would have holstered and continued to carry around a 
loaded weapon. As for the rules.... no, you dont have to go by them. You
just can't play the game if you dont. :-)


						John



-- 
John Gayman, WA3WBU 
UUCP: uunet!wa3wbu!john
Packet: WA3WBU @ WB3EAH
From: ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: DCM marksmanship program, how to?
Date: 14 Dec 92 14:15:30 GMT
Organization: Circle 'C' Shellfish Ranch, Shores of the Pacific, California

How does the DCM marksmanship program work, how does one get
into it, and is it worth it to get a 'good deal' on an M1?

(And, for bonus points, is it likely to continue unchanged in the
 new administration?)

Thanks...

-- 

E. Michael Smith  ems@apple.COM

'Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it.  Boldness has
 genius, power and magic in it.'  -  Goethe

I am not responsible nor is anyone else.  Everything is disclaimed.
From: 76334.1331@CompuServe.COM (Brian Millin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Compensator design
Date: 12 Dec 92 17:16:25 GMT

Help the physics impaired:

Most compensator designs that I have seen work in one or both of two ways:
redirect gases upwards to counteract muzzle flip, or have escaping gases
act on a surface that will counteract recoil along the bore line. Some
have a 45 degree surface like the Clark pinmaster, that does some of both,
I suppose. 
				      Gas Chamber
Crude graphics follow:          _______	  \|/	   _____
				|     |	   	  /    /
--------------------------------------|          /    /<--compensator
______________________________________|		/____/	
BORE--------->
______________________________________        _____
				      |	     /    /
--------------------------------------|-----/    /
				|______________/

These things remind me of Popeye with an electric fan in the back of a
sailboat providing wind for the sail. By the way, how many of you knew
that John Browning's first automatic rifle was a lever action that had a
paddle in front of the muzzle attached to the lever? He built it in an
hour or so after watching weeds get blown around by the muzzle blast of
another shooter. Bit of trivia there.

Seems to me that it is a question of efficiency. For a gun with a high
bore line, like a revolver or 1911 style, you need the upwards jet to get
the muzzle back down. Pistols with lower bore lines like the P9 might get
more out of a flat surface perpendicular to the bore to get max pull
forward. Like the AR15 brakes made these days - like a clamshell brake on
a tank gun or that .50BMG bullpup monster somebody just came out with.

So - My questions - If you have ports that are vertical, like most
compensators, seems like you need a small port to get a jet effect, but
if it is that small then the pressure on the front of the chamber will be
the same as the pressure on the rear of the chamber. If the chamber is
larger to just get the blast on the front end without equal pressure on
the back, no jet effect as there is too much space to contain and
re-direct the gases.

Or maybe not.

Ideas?

More crude graphics:

Short port: ---------    -----
	_____________|  |_____|
	Bore--->		 This would act like a Hybrid Comp
        _______________________  no force on front of port as equal 
			       | force would be on back of port.	
	-----------------------|
From: jbober@ida.org (jbober)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Seek general info on FFL
Date: 17 Dec 92 18:59:25 GMT
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway


                       Subject:                               Time:3:12 PM
  OFFICE MEMO          Seek general info on FFL               Date:12/14/92
Greetings, I have some questions for the legal gurus in the group:

1. In general, I am seeking some basic information regarding the obtaining of
an FFL.
2. In particular, I am curious as to whether such license would allow me to
purchase and posess handguns and rifles in multiple states.  Because of the
nature of my business as a scientific consultant, I own a home in NJ and a home
in VA, and divide my time between them.  As a result, gun shops in state "A"
have been giving me a hard time over a purchase because I have a driver's
license from state "B".  How then can one legally purchase and posess firearms
in both states without having to go through the bureaucratic agony of fishing
up identification documents (i.e. 2 driver's licenses) that are state specific?
Would the FFL help in this matter?
From: ljb@parkcity.dr.att.com (BLO54620-BonhamLJ(DR2194)240)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: dealing with a police officer
Date: 15 Dec 92 23:35:25 GMT


In article <viking.724380552@vincent1.iastate.edu>, viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:
|> ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith) writes:
|> 
|> #This is exactly what I would do now.  Engine off.  Hands on the wheel
|> #at 12 o'clock.  Smile to the officer and ask what he wants you to do,
|> #then AFTER HE TELLS YOU WHAT TO DO, mention 'I have a CCW and a {type
|> #gun in whatever carry position}, does that change what you want me to do?'
|> 
|> 	It's just an opinion, but it strikes me as being a more hazardous
|> situation for the officer if he has to approach your car.  Even when I'm
|> being pulled over for a simple 60 in a 55 (it was Labor Day weekend), I
|> always get out of the car and walk back towards the cruiser.  First, I
|> don't want an officer looking into my car, and second he has ample time
|> to observe me and make a good judgement on my intentions, demeanor, and
|> sobriety.  I walk back and, if it is cold, I head to the passenger side
|> and give a gentle knock on the window.  If invited, I sit inside where
|> it is warm and we have a nice chat over the weather, my offense, the
|> last guy he busted, what the radar gun says, etc...
|
Here in Colorado, we just had a State Patrol officer killed by a perp
who was sitting next to him in the front seat of the cruiser.  Since this
incident probably will be used to teach other officers, I would NOT recomend
approaching the patrol car!  The officers I've talked to, including my brother-in-
law (no pun intended), all feel that they have more control if people just stay 
put and keep their hands in plain sight.  Think about it, do you have a greater
advantage aproaching someone from the rear of their vehicle so that they must
turn around to do anything to you and you have the cover of the length of their
car, or are you better off sitting in the front seat as someone appraoches you
since you would have to draw your weapon with it pressed against the seat back
and are only the covered by the door skin?

The bottom line is, by sitting tight you allow the officer to set up the
situation the way he/she wants to which puts them in a proactive, not reactive,
frame of mind.