From: wes@echo.canberra.edu.au (Wes Nicholson)
Subject: Re: Timetable blues
Organization: Info Sci & Eng, University of Canberra, AUSTRALIA
Date: 12 Oct 92 12:26:07 GMT

In <jph613.718775116@huxley> jph613@huxley.anu.edu.au (John P Hughes) writes:

>Hi Folks

>Now that I've finally caught up on my sleep after Necro, I'd like to make a few comments about convention timetabling.
>In the past, I've used just about every convention tabling system in
>existence, manual - Arcan-arcon, Sydcon, Cancon, and electronic - the Necro
>Hypercard stacks and Cancon database programs.

>None of them work.

Hoo-bloody-ray, John. It's about time someone said that out loud. As one
of
the CANCON organisers for the last four years, I have also played around
with
many so called systems. The Arcanacon system has one good point only -
it
involves no work for the con organisers. Unfortunately, it puts 
a lot of work onto the desingers (who are already overowrked in many
cases)
and the players, who often find it bewlidering the first ime at
Arkenarken.
   The old CACNON system, where you got put into spots as the con
organisers saw fit, has been used by a lot of cons. I assume CANCON
started ot only because it was the first roleplaying con here. Anyway,
it
invaribaley causes hassles for everyone - players can't make sessions
they're booked for, desingers can't provide the gm's they promised,
ertc. That system is as bad as my typing. Wellm almost.
   Then there;s Macquariecon. Well, the system they used to have ran on
a rather large computer, and took all weekend to schedule some 250-300
players. Not surprisingly, thye dumped it in foavour of a new one, which
relies on a lot of human input.
   We've tried a smilar system at CANCON, and while it isn't perfect, it
mostly works. There's still hassles, and it is a fair bit of work for
the organisers (me and charlie mostly) to get sorted out.
    Still, like John said, none of them work.

    >>In article <1992Oct9.040930.15359@sserve.cc.adfa.oz.au> braca2@cspyr1.cs.adfa.oz.au (BRAY CHRISTOPHER) writes:
>>>There are computer programs that you can buy or write, I believe, that will
>>>timetable for you.  A few alterations and I'm sure that you could get a
>>>convention going. 

   As a computer programmer, I bet those few alterations would be mind
boggling. What you're trying to do is solve N simulataneoius equatiuons,
often with N+ unknowns. The only computer that can come close to this is
the mark one human brain. 

>>>And if conventions were to share this (shock, horror) then it would 
>>>simplify it greatly.  It may reduce the flexibility, but if the program 
>>>is good then it will allow for sudden changes.

>Some people have made comments on this topic assumming that con organisers
>don't talk to each other or share ideas - this is, quite frankly, bullshit.

Oh, John! Everyone knows that con organisers never share anything with
each other. Just vbecause we all have huge STD phone bills aroud the
time taht other cons are running doesn't mean we talk about what things
are wroking well and what things aren't. After all, that would be too
much like common snese, and would anyone with common sense organise a
con?
No, this is too much. rganisers sharing ideas? Never! :-)
 (that last thiny was as mily - a sarcastic remark - for anyone who
didn't know).

>If anyone found a system that works well, I guarantee that every con would
>be using it within twelve months. Scheduling is the bane of every convention,
>and by far the most common cause of player dissatisfaction. We'd love to 
>be able to use a computer program. However, for such a program to work, it would have to:

>handle finite rooms and finite gms for each game.

  Can be done wihtout too many hassles. But a large chart on a piece of
cardboard does it better.

>crosscheck gms who are playing to ensure they are not required to gm in a
>session whee they are playing.

  Nvloves scheduling GMs into the stuff they're playing, before giving
them stuff to GM. Again, the mark one brain is good for this. But, it
requires lots of fuel, usually caffeine, alcohol, or both.

>Handle individual entries, scratch teams where many different timetables
>coincide, and may have to coincide for a second or third session.

  Arrgh! The proabbaly hardest thing to do.

>Handle part teams, where only three or four may enter, but five turn up
>on the day.

  No, John. You just shoot the extra person who didn't put their entry
in. No problem.


>Handle teams who can't play on friday, or Saturday morning or whatever.

  An easy one, even for a computer.

>Handle the 'social gms' who want to have a finger in every pie, and so
>volunteer to run two sessions of x, three sessions of y, and two sessions of z.

  This is more a problem in fgetting the desingers not to argue over who
has first dibs on the gm.

>Allow each designer some flexibility for the percentage of gamers (perhaps
>20%) who miss her game due to sleeping in, running late, or deciding to play
>a freeform at the last minute.

  Not an easy one to solve, even with the mark one brain.

>Even if the program could handle this, there are other factors as well. What
>about the teams who are gming, and have maybe six three sessions between
>them, all at seperate times. One team at Necro had a situation like this, but
>wanted to play nine sessions!!!!

>Then there's the entry curve. It goes like this. Necro this year had around
>250 players. By the late fee date, only about 150 players had entered. Very
>few entries came in over the next few weeks. Therefore, designers who
>had recruited gms found they'd only have to run a few sessions, and so decide
>to play. In the week before the con we get another 50 entries. At registration
>we get 50  more. A good percentage of these are gms who've decided to play.
>So designers find they actually have all the teams they'd agreed to run, and
>that the spare gm sessions they had are gone because gms have decided to play.
>Result: a shortage of gms and no flexibility in scheduling teams. We warn
>peole about this every year, and every year most ignore us.

   This is not unique to Necro. It happens all over. Basically,
roleplayers as a group are badly organised, and only enter cons at the
last minute. Why? Thats always intrigued me. Since I started going to
cons, I've tried to enter early so I'd get in the events I wanted. Maybe
I'm one of the few who believe the "enter early or you'll miss out", but
at Arcanacon I missed one game even though IO was early ebtering. 

>What's the solution. I'd love to know. Lets hope this discussion can generate
>some fresh approaches.

   If anyone does solve it, and get it foolproof, you could sell it to
every con in the world.


    Just my 0.02 worth.

	TTFN

	Wes

wes@echo.canberra.edu.au  (Wes Nicholson)

Newsgroups: aus.games.roleplay