From: jay@oclc.org (Young Jeff)
Subject: Re: *I* am THE way.
Organization: OCLC Online Computer Library Center, Inc.
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Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 18:46:42 GMT

pub@riscee.pko.dec.com (Publius) writes:
: In article <1992Aug19.170723.25800@oclc.org> jay@oclc.org (Young Jeff) writes:
: >
: >You say that what happens to unbelievers is moot.  What if your God
: >condemns them to hell where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth?
: 
: The Scripture mentions no such things.  It does say that when the Lord
: comes back, His unfaithful servants (presummabily believers) will be
: shut out in the outer darkness (for how long?  I don't know), and there
: there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth (I guess this is passage
: where this phrase 'wailing and gnashing of teeth' comes from)..
: That passage is about how God will discipline His unfaithful servants.
: It is NOT about the unbelievers.

The applicable verses I found are Matt. 8:12, 13:42, 13:50, 22:13, 
24:51, and 25:30.  The terms "outer darkness" and "furnace of fire" 
are both used.  You may want to argue that two different places are
being referred to, but I don't see it.  It seems to me that Matt.
25:31-46 in particular indicate that those of all nations end up
in either heaven or hell with no middle ground.

: The term "hell", in its Calvinistic sense, simply means the state
: of separation from God.  And in this sense, everyone who is not
: living in God's will is in "hell".  As I have shown in the past,
: in this newsgroup, that this interpretation of "hell" is crucial
: to Calvin's entire theological system.  

I'm sorry I missed these posts.  In these past articles did you show 
that a Calvinistic type hell was supported by the Bible or only that 
Calvin's theological system requires it.  Looking through the Bible 
at places that mention hell, it wouldn't seem to support this claim.  
Hell appears to be a pretty awful place.  Under your interpretation, 
am I (an atheist) living in God's will?  If not, hell isn't so bad 
after all.

: Take away this interpretation
: of "hell" and replace it with the literal "hell fire", as preferred by
: some, and you would crush Calvin's entire theological system.
: In other words, you can not interprete "hell" as literal "hell fire"
: while you are claiming to be a Calvinist at the same time.  But
: I guess this is not really of your interest, and I will just stop
: here on this subject unless there is further interest from the
: readers of this group.

If Calvininism doesn't stand up to scrutiny, why should I care if it
falls?

: [uncontested definition of salvation deleted]
:                               As His life, which is also called
: 'Eternal Life' in the Bible, grows in you and brings you into a
: mature Christian life, you come to express the glory of this
: 'Eternal Life' in your daily living.  

It sounds here like you are saying eternal life is just a metaphor.
You don't believe in an afterlife?  No burning hell?  No eternal life?
What kind of Christian are you? :)

: This is how your human human life
: can be 'made whole and made complete', in other words, this is how
: you are 'saved'.
: 
: Let me summarize my points here.  First, we have to realize that
: God's purpose for us is to contain Him, express Him, and glorify Him.
: But, we, in our own nature, have nothing but total deprivation (also
: known as 'Original Sin') and live in the state of separation from God
: (the state known as "hell").  God, in order to bring us back to
: His purpose, gives us something which brings us out of the
: state of total deprivation, out of the state of separation from Him.
: This 'something' which can do all of these is called 'Eternal Life'
: in the Bible, and this 'Life' is in Jesus Christ.  When you receive
: Jesus Christ, you receive this new Life, and you are 'born again',
: and now you are on the right tract back to God's purpose.  

By the way, what exactly is God's purpose?

: As you
: live in God's purpose, you life is made whole and made complete.
: This is salvation.
: 
: Many hundred years ago, some Christians put forth the following
: meanful question and wonderful answer:
: 
: 	Q: What is the purpose of human beings?
: 	A: The purpose of human beings is to glorify God, and
: 	   to enjoy Him forever.

Is this the purpose you were referring to above?  God's purpose is to
have us glorify God?  This seems like a rather shallow purpose.  Aren't 
there other purposes in life that even an atheist can enjoy?
-- 
Jeff Young

Opinions expressed are mine alone.