From: fjvwing@cs.vu.nl (FJ!!)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Surviving
Date: 29 Jul 92 12:32:58 GMT

anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:
:In article <15569@star.cs.vu.nl: fjvwing@cs.vu.nl (FJ!!)
:writes:

::The reason for continuing to live when living hurts so bad
::you want to end the pain, should be that there might be a
::way out to make life liveable again, not that _others_ want
::you to continue.

:You talk as though others have no stake, as though part of
:what makes life livable [note the spelling couldn't possibly
:have anything to do with others in one's life.  That's
:nonsense.

Course it is. I don't think I said other people have no stake.

:Making it clear to a suicidal person that you personally
:face a real loss if they go through with it and trying to
:secure their agreement that they will *not* carry it out are
:major factors in helping a person pull themselves back from
:the brink.  You're not going to get much chance to help
:someone (and if you're in a position to help and you don't
:help, you're as much as saying "Go ahead.") unless you can
:get the person back from that brink.

It is just that it strikes me as such a terrible primary reason to stay
alive: I'll hurt when you drop, so don't do it. Yeah, the survivors
face a loss. Yes, they face pain, yes, they face anger, rage, the
questions, the traumas, the years lost wondering what they could have
done, the fear the acceptance, the non-acceptance.

But should that be the sole reason to continue a life? Somebody else's
potential pain? That's taking the responsability for somebody else's
emotions on you.

Does the ends of keeping someone alive justify using emotional
blackmail?  Do you think using a tool so murky on a person hurting so
bad already, helps?

:Go back to what I said: "Please don't.  Get help instead." I
:didn't prescribe what form of help it should be or from whom
:it should come.  So your reaction seems most unwarranted to
:me.  

This paragraph absolutely makes no sense in this discussion. Did I bring
up where to get help, anywhere?

:If you want to present an alternative view so it can be
:discussed, that's fine, I'm all for it, but if you're going
:to call what I said shit, you can save your breath.  I think
:it's a given that I know more about it than you do, having
:had to struggle with myself over it as an adult for 1.25
:times the time you've been alive. 

Is it now?

Look, it's a given that you are older than me, that you've done more
than me, that you thought more than me, that you've felt more, fucked
more, loved more, done more drugs, had more interesting relationships,
travelled more, speak more languages, in short, lived more than me.

Which means you know about everything more than I do, doesn't it?

So I'm never to question anything you say.

Ok.

I'll just stand here in the wings doing cute intermezzos untill I'm 56
as well. Can we then talk? Oh no, you'll still be older than me...Well,
I guess we'll be able to see eye-to-eye when we are both dead, won't
we? Or will I then get a: "I've been a corpse for longer than you have,
so shut up and say 'Amen Jess-sir'" ?

:So show a little respect, migraine or no migraine.

It wasn't developed then (believe me, I don't read news with a
migraine). Typing became difficult because I couldn't see the
keyboard, just flashes in between the interference patterns.

:Hope you feel better soon, too.  I've only had about half a
:dozen vascular headaches in my life but that's enough to
:know they are a real hell.

So, you've had them as well. Can I say something about mine, or do I
have to run it by you and your experiences first? Just showing respect
here.
							FJ!!