HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bhv@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris)
Subject: Re: Men's Issues Newsbrie
Organization: Motorola, CCR&D, CORP, Schaumburg, IL
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 15:55:54 GMT

In some post I write:

>But what if he stuck his fingers up her vaginia?  My impression of
>the way I think this 'penetration' law would work in practice is
>that penetration would mean penetration of the vagina in practice, no matter
>what the law actually said.
>

I was thinking about this some more, and I realized it needed to be
expanded some.  Penetration of the mouth or anus with a *penis*, rather
than a finger, would very likely fall into the 'practical' range of 
the 'penetration' definiton of rape (IMO).

Maybe this makes my concerns about the way this definition makes only
men rapists a bit more clear.

Xref: sparky soc.men:15505 soc.women:15796
Newsgroups: soc.men,soc.women
Subject: Re: Feminists ignore Cosmetics?
From: rivero@mdcbbs.com
Date: 26 Aug 92 10:02:21 GMT
Organization: Electronic Data Systems, Unigraphics Division, Cypress CA
Nntp-Posting-User: rivero

In article <1992Aug25.143622.9395@midway.uchicago.edu>, thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank) writes:
> In article <1992Aug24.112004.1@mdcbbs.com> rivero@mdcbbs.com writes:
> <100 lines of lawyer-bashing deleted>
>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>|  Michael Rivero rivero@mdcbbs.com  Middle-Aged Mutant Ninja Animator   |
>>|                                                                        |
>>| In the Middle East, women are raised to always cover their faces with  |
>>| viels. Modern feminists point to this practice as proof of how these   |
>>| women are oppressed. Yet here in the Western (so called) Civilized     |
>>| countries, women are raised to cover their faces with cosmetics, to    |
>>| the tune of 50 billion dollars a year. In this regard, American women  |
>>| are just as oppressed as their eastern sisters while having to pay far |
>>| more for the priviledge. Why do the feminists pay such scant attention |
>>| to this most visible abuse of women's skin, health, and wallet?        |
>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> 
> Read some Naomi Wolf sometime.  Or just about any issue of Ms. magazine.

  Naomi Wolf's book is an excellent study of the subject. As I've posted here
before, we disagree on only wone major point. Whereas Ms. Wolf ascribes
the marketing of beauty to a deliberate conspiracy to sobourn the females,
I hold that the same behavoirs are easily explained by simple greed
and the desire to sell cheap products at high prices.

  However, it is NOT up to Ms. Wolf or Ms. Magazine to change these
practices. It should also be clear from the media assaults directed at
Naomi (Mostly from Cosmo) that a single individual or publication
cannot go "head to head" with a 50 billion a year industry in the arena
of public media.

  It is up to individual women to re-examine their motives for using such
products and to look at whether or not the marketing of such products
exploits them financially, or worse, teaches them to value their purchased
personna versus their own natural selves. Then, it's up to them to
say,"I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to TAKE it anymore!"


<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
|  Michael Rivero rivero@mdcbbs.com  Middle-Aged Mutant Ninja Animator   |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Xref: sparky soc.men:15871 soc.women:16099 alt.feminism:499
From: jeff@aiai.ed.ac.uk (Jeff Dalton)
Newsgroups: soc.men,soc.women,alt.feminism
Subject: Re: Feminists ignore Cosmetics?
Date: 3 Sep 92 15:38:23 GMT
Organization: AIAI, University of Edinburgh, Scotland

In article <1992Sep2.151603.26592@burrhus.harvard.edu> dsvoss@isr.harvard.edu (Steve Voss) writes:
>Carol mentions the old saying that women dress for other women.  I just
>wanted to add my two cents...  I think this is definitely true.  I
>often ask male friends whether they like when women wear makeup, and
>I have received unanimously negative responses.  Same from my lesbian and
>Bi female friends.  Of course, this is
>selection bias -- I would expect the friends I have chosen not to be
>representative.  Nevertheless, with so many wo(men) simply preferring that
>a woman be herself, I am left suspecting that cosmetics are a
>collectivist conspiracy intended to keep all women equal by making
>them all look fake.

There's makeup and makeup.  Some people use so much that they
look like they're made of plastic.  Perhaps your firends are
reacting to excessive makeup.  Have they explicitly considered
minimal makeup vs none?
From: pepke@ds1.scri.fsu.edu (Eric Pepke)
Newsgroups: soc.men
Subject: Re: What is Wrong with this picture?????
Date: 3 Sep 92 22:07:29 GMT
Reply-To: pepke@ds1.scri.fsu.edu (Eric Pepke)
Organization: Florida State University, but I don't speak for them

In article <stricher-030992174513@stayman.ocean.fsu.edu> stricher@masig.fsu.edu (Char Aznabul) writes:
>I can't tell the difference between the anti-feminist right, and the
>radical feminists.

Bingo!

-EMP
Newsgroups: soc.men
From: Will Steeves <goid@zooid.guild.org>
Subject: Re: Right To Not Support
X-To: TERRA WITKOP
Organization: The Zoo of Ids
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 19:18:00 GMT

terra@athena.mit.edu (Terra Witkop) writes....
TW> I'm tired of reading characterizations of women as
TW> scheming bitches.  It's obvious that a lot of the more vocal male
TW> posters here believe that women are solely responsible for birth
TW> control, and should be held solely responible in cases of accidental
TW> pregnancies.


No, I have only seen the "only women should be responsible" line from one or
two men.  I don't agree with that "logic," either.


TW> It just ain't so.  Guys, if you don't want to deal with unwanted progeny,
TW> wear condoms, have a vasectomy if you're sure you never want a kid, lobby
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

And women should *also* be responsible, if they do not want a child.


TW> for more research into other forms of men's contraceptives (I know, I
TW> hate condoms, too)!  But don't go sleeping around and then blaming
TW> us females for "accidents" in which you're at least 50% responsible!!!

Ah, so if you are saying that men are "at least 50% responsible," then you
SEEM to be saying that men SHOULD be forced to support the children, whether
they want to or not.

But since women are ALSO "50% responsible," are you *also* advocating that
women be forced to bear the child, or *only* that men should be responsible
if the women *chooses* to have the child?

---
Will Steeves, goid@zooid.guild.org                      "Neil Hull is GOiD"
ZOOiD BBS, Toronto, Ontario - The Zoo Of Ids            "GOiDS Rule"
(416) 322-7876
---
 * SLMR 2.1a * What does NCC stand for? - Naaaaah, that's too easy!
Newsgroups: soc.men
From: ad815@yfn.ysu.edu (John S. Kennedy)
Subject: Male/Female Wage Differences
Reply-To: axinar@tso.uc.edu (John S. Kennedy)
Organization: Tri-State Online, Cincinnati, OH, USA
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 18:09:43 GMT


I ran across this message on Tri-State Online and I thought it might be
worthy of some comment:
 
________________________________________
     To: /media/jeanie/bb                  Msg #: 11098
   From: caren (Caren Cohen)                  On: 09/03/92  23:50
  About: #11097(above)                   Replies: 2
Subject: Re: Cable Bill
 
... and that women make 40 to 60 cents on the dollar for what a
man makes.
 
--Caren
----------------------------------------
 
Well, yes, that's looking at the figures as they come from the employer
to the employee --
 
With alot of my friends, counting alimony and child support, the woman
makes about $1.10 to every $1 that the man makes.
 
                John

-- 
** John S. Kennedy (513) 541-3078 axinar@tso.uc.edu 72217.416@compuserve.com
The opinions expressed in this message are those of the person speaking,
and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of St. E's Med Center, or the
NPTN, but Mr. Kennedy's opinions SHOULD be made federal law!
Newsgroups: soc.men
From: farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf)
Subject: Re: Men's Issues Newsbrie
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Distribution: na
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 92 16:04:15 GMT

In article <1992Aug28.170748.18778@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com> bhv@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris) writes:
>Yes, I'd also like to see you explain to a cop that you were raped because
>a woman stuck her finger or tounge in your mouth during foreplay and you
>didn't give her explicit permission beforehand.
>
>Please record your conversation & post it to the net! :-)
>
>I'd bet you'd find that you didn't have a leg to stand on legally, either.

I seriously doubt if anyone, male or female, who says s/he was raped
because a mate stuck her/his finger or tongue in the mouth during
foreplay will be taken seriously.

>If she stuck her finger up your rectum, you might have an actual  legal case,
>but I'd still like to see the conversation with the cop - I'd bet you'd have
>a *whole lot* of difficulty getting that case prosecuted.  And if you did
>get it prosecuted, why, I'd bet it was thrown out of court.
>
>So, yes, the law is sexixst in practice regardless of whether it may or may
>not be theoretically gender neutral (I don't think it is even close, BTW).

I agree that rape of men is particularly difficult to prosecute.
However, I think it would be equally difficult for a woman, if she
agreed to consensual vaginal intercourse and then her male partner
stuck his fingers up her anus without her consent, to find the police
willing to listen to her.

Newsgroups: soc.men,soc.women,alt.child-support,alt.abortion.inequity,alt.dads-rights
From: gordons@coopsol.com (Gordon Storga)
Subject: Re: Pre-conception contract
Keywords: conception sex contract child support abortion
Organization: Stay Awake Software
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 22:01:24 GMT

<1992Aug25.202841.14186@cco.caltech.edu> peri@cco.caltech.edu (Michal Leah Peri) said:
>fabian@gecko.cis.ohio-state.edu (anjanette louise fabian) writes:
>
>>(Well if we can have pre nuptial contracts, why not pre conception?)
>
>Such contracts are unlikely to be held up by the courts -- after all,
>surrogate motherhood contracts are usually thrown out.

Unfortunately.

>Moreover, if the persons engaging in intercourse are unwilling or
>unable to successfully apply contraception, what makes you think 
>that they will bother with pre-sex contracts?!

Changing the social expectations would take a great deal of effort.
Currently the social expectation is "Men who get divorced, leave their
families, or sleep around are *automatically* financially responsible for
any children they left behind."  This ranks right up there with the near
axiom that if you are in a car accident and hit someone from behind you
are *automatically* at fault.  The effort would be in changing the
social, and specifically the woman's, expectations wrt to financial
support from the man.  Change the laws so that no woman *has* to remain
pregnant, and that no man *has* to pay for children when he didn't agree
to pay, and the expectation is that women will know exactly what to expect
from a relationship financially.

Whether this actually would reduce unwanted pregnancy, or reduce the
number of single mothers raising children on little income, I don't know.
But it would be much fairer to the man.


Gordon

-- 
The opinions expressed are my own, and not the beliefs or opinions
of whatever company you think I work for.  So there, thhhbbbt!
Message to Kodak:  Freedom for Dan Bredy.
Newsgroups: soc.men,soc.women,alt.child-support
From: beaver@castor.cs.psu.edu (Don Beaver)
Subject: Re: Lawyer Speak
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 12:03:09 GMT

In article <1992Aug31.022244.11982@u.washington.edu> twain@milton.u.washington.edu (Barbara Hlavin) writes:

[discussion between Barbara Hlavin and EuStress about Allen, Farrow,
and child support.  deleted.]

>(By the way, I find it insensitive, to be nice about it, that you equate 
>being pressured to support your child with rape.) 

I, for one, appreciate your being nice about it.

But I also wanted to point out to you that, while child support  per se
is not rape, it is (as currently implemented) a lifelong and devastating
violation.  Given that men obtain custody in less than 10% of the cases
and are subsequently required, almost strictly by virtue of being male,
to work for eighteen years and pay on the order of half their income to
someone who by definition is antagonistic to them, I find no great
insensitivity in such a comparison.

By virtue of being female (there are exceptions), one may be faced with 
physical violation and a life of feeling powerless and degraded.

By virtue of being male (there are exceptions), one may be faced with 
loss of children and freedom, and a life of feeling powerless and degraded.

Eighteen years is a long time not to be able to change your job (or just not
to lose it!).  Eighteen years is a long time to think about children whom
you cannot see.  Eighteen years is a long time to think about supporting
an ex-spouse who buys a house using child support money and who conditions 
the children against you.  Eighteen years is a long time to work full-steam
to support more than just your children and to think about dying young
from overwork.  We only live once, and eighteen years spans the prime 
of our lives.

[Required reading: Jon Wood's posting about Real Dads.]


Perhaps it seems silly to speak of spending money as a big burden, 
but we are speaking not just of responsibility but of a systematic, 
unequal, and lifelong denial to men of the freedom to love and raise 
their children, while stripping them of the right to choose how their 
lives will proceed after such a violation.  I would agree with EuStress 
that that is rape.

I don't find it productive to say, "This experience is worse than 
that experience."  But nor do I find it insensitive to say,
"This experience and that experience are outrageous violations."
According to Webster, this can be rephrased as:  "This experience 
and that experience are rape."

Don
-- 
beaver@cs.psu.edu                       Opinions from the PC-challenged
From: rfs@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (richard.f.j.soyack)
Newsgroups: soc.men
Subject: Re: Adults, Children and sex
Date: 29 Aug 92 12:44:41 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <j_fn10b.boserj@netcom.com> boserj@netcom.com (Jeffrey Boser) writes:
>rfs@cbnewsh.cb.att.com (richard.f.j.soyack) writes:
>>I don't see an answer to my simple question here.  I'm sure
>>you do, but please phrase it simply so I can understand it.
>>Do you believe that children should be viewed as being
>>sexually available to adults?
>
>I dont think that *anybody* should be seen as being sexually
>available to *anybody*.  Your question applies equally to
>adults as children.  Also, the definition of what a minor
>is falls under question in consent issues. (legals history
>has shown that the age has fluctuated up and down according
>to social and criminal problems)
>
>>Have sex with children is illegal.  Its called rape.  If you
>>attempt to have sex with children, but don't succeed, its
>>attempted rape.
>
>Actually, sex with a minor is satutory rape.  And is one of
>the hardest crimes to prosecute, especially when the minor
>gives consent.  The illegality has nothing to do with it.
>In fact, the law itself is hypocritical.  Find out at what
>age minors can marry and have sex, and not marry and have
>sex..
>
>The effects of a true rape (one where consent was not given
>by a participant) and statutory rape (where one of the
>participants is considered for legal convienience to not
>be able to consent, regardless if they did or not) are
>quite different from individual to individual.
>
>>Then I suggest that you as an adult respect children.  Don't
>>view children as sex objects.  Its all very simple.
>
>In response to the indirect question: Do I consider children
>sex objects?  I would have to answer that as a child I sure
>as hell did.  And this is actually considered healthy behavior.
>When I stopped?  I dont know if I did, I certainly notice
>children's sexualy characteristics, but I do modify my behavior
>to benefit my survival.  meaning I am quite aware of society's
>taboos and laws regarding the matter.
>
>that does not mean, however, that I agree with these morals.
>in point of fact, i think they are hipocritical in nature.
>
>(then again, i also think monogamy is as well)
>
>.....jeff

This all leads me to think, "Thank God, that with people like
you in the world, we have laws that restrict your behaviour."
From: sac@Apple.COM (Steve Cisler)
Newsgroups: soc.libraries.talk
Subject: Re: Less Access to Less Info
Date: 26 Aug 92 03:33:15 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, CA

the EDGAR/SEC/MEAD-DATA affair.  It discusses the lack of access
taxpayers have to SEC data. Some of this was on the Net, but it's good
to see it in print too.
Steve Cisler
Apple Library


Newsgroups: soc.libraries.talk
From: bs464@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Duncan R. McCoy)
Subject: re:List of Public Libraries on the Net
Reply-To: bs464@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Duncan R. McCoy)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 02:39:52 GMT


One of the posters on this topic suggested Hytelnet as an
answer to my interest. What I would actually like to have is
a list of Internet addresses for public libraries and public
librarians. I've been using Hytelnet for some time and while
it's useful for online library catalog logins and a whole
variety of other directory information, I really don't think
it covers public library Internet directory info very well
at all.

I know, for example that Denver Public Library is plugged in.
Suppose I want to E-Mail a message to the director or the head
of tech services. How is Hytelnet going to help me do that or
anything else short of calling Denver on the phone and asking
them what their Internet address is?

I still think this would be a good semester project for a library
school student.

Duncan R. McCoy
bs464@cleveland.freenet.edu
duncan@helios.nevada.edu

-- 
Duncan R. McCoy
Boulder City, NV
bs464@cleveland.freenet.edu
---------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.libraries.talk
From: jcdavis1@eos.ncsu.edu (JOSEPH CARL DAVIS)
Subject: is there an electronic "books in print?"
Organization: NCSU Project Eos
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 14:55:00 GMT

 The subject pretty much says it all - is there an electronic version
 of the "books in print" that I can access.  I know about the 
 Library of congress online catalogue, but I'm not sure if that gives
 enough information for finding the book.  for instance, it doesn't 
 say if the book is still in print.

 thanks,
 jcd


-- 
\  Joseph C. Davis   jcdavis1@eos.ncsu.edu       People are not basically   \
\                    (919) 515-7452              stupid, they just act      \
\                                                that way...                \
\\\\\|||||//////\\\\\\|||||/////\\\\\\|||||\\\\\//////||||||\\\\\/////||||///
Newsgroups: soc.libraries.talk
From: cbs@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (Chris Syed)
Subject: looking for regional resource-sharing consortia
Followup-To: sender
Organization: UTCS Public Access
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 22:56:12 GMT

  Is your library part of a mixed-institution regional consortium? 
  By this I mean, a group of libraries with reciprocal borrowing,
  interlending, shared catalogue, shared tech services, shared central
  or distributed computing, cooperative buying etc. etc.... preferably
  of mixed type (academic, public, special, government....), and 
  preferably geographically dispersed...say, county or state/province
  wide...

  I am completing a thesis about the UNILINC (formerly CLANN) network 
  in Australia, and am looking for likely sites with which to compare it. 

  Thanks in 'advance'.
 
-- 
--- 
       "We cannot think without imagining."  -- Thomas Aquinas
            cbs@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (Chris Brown-Syed)
Newsgroups: no.multimedia
From: oivindi@dhhalden.no (OIVIND IDSO)
Subject: I all verden!
Organization: Ostfold College
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 11:46:20 GMT

Hvorfor i all verden har det ikke kommet noe post her enda???

Skjer det ingenting p multimedia fronten i Norge, eller...

Oivind (oivindi@sofus.dhhalden.no)

*****************************************************************
*                         * Disclaimer: These are the opinions  *
* "Potatoe"  - Dan Quayle *             of me, myself and I.    *
*                         *             Ergo, not my employer.  *
*****************************************************************
Newsgroups: no.alt.pompel-og-pilt
From: meyer@geomatic.no (Harald Martens Meyer)
Subject: Re: P&P GIF bilder?
Organization: Geomatic a.s, Norway.
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 06:58:07 GMT

In article <009600EC.F91CE260@FHYDRA.FYSEL.UNIT.NO> dahls@fhydra.dnet.unit.no (Joern Yngve Dahl-Stamnes) writes:

   Hva med noen feite P&P GIF bilder? Finnes det noen der ute...

   Tenk deg  ha P&P som bakgrunnsbilde p arbeidsstasjonen da.


Kanskje noen som har et PostScript-bilde ogsaa??

  2
HM
--
< Harald Martens Meyer    | Geomatic a.s      >
< Email:meyer@geomatic.no | PO.Box 165 Skoyen >
< Tel: +47 2 50 43 30     | N-0212 OSLO 2     >
< Tfx: +47 2 50 05 55     | NORWAY            >
Newsgroups: no.unix
From: bis@ifi.uio.no (Bjorn Ivar Stark)
Subject: Re: set fixed prioritet
Organization: Dept. of Informatics, University of Oslo, Norway
	<1992Sep2.072539.4824@ugle.unit.no>
	<1992Sep3.071909.19175@ugle.unit.no>
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 16:38:28 GMT
Originator: bis@maud.ifi.uio.no


   Det var kanskje ikkje svar paa spoersmaalet ditt ...

Nei, ikke akkuratt; beklager uklarheten i spoersmaalet. Jeg kan
sette prioriten til en prosess med C-kallet

        setpri(procid,prio)

i AIX, men jeg trenger en Unix-kommando som er enkel aa bruke i
forbindelse med start av BATCH jobber. Denne kan sefoelgelig
skrives i C, men ville berre spoerre om noen av dere hadde gjort
noe tilsvarende foerst.
--
------Vennlig hilsen-----
Oystein Fosli, B240
Norsk Hydro a.s           Ph.: (472) 739660       
Postboks 200		  Fax: (472) 739555
1321 STABEKK	     internet: bis@ifi.uio.no
Norway
Newsgroups: no.unix
From: bis@ifi.uio.no (Bjorn Ivar Stark)
Subject: set fixed prioritet
Organization: Dept. of Informatics, University of Oslo, Norway
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 12:40:19 GMT
Originator: bis@maud.ifi.uio.no

Jeg trenger fxlgende unix-kommando for aa starte tunge
batch jobber:

setpri PRI UNIX-COMMANDO

hvor setpri setter igang unix-kommandoen med fast PRI prioritet.
(Programmet kan godt sjekke pe at PRI er i omraadet 120-126)
og trenger vel aa bli kjoert med setuid root.
Noen som har skrevet et slikt program?

(nice er dessverre ikke godt nok :-()

-------------- Vennlig hilsen -------------------
Postboks 200              fax:  (02) 739555
1321 STABEKK              Personsoeker: 096 27546         
                                                           
--
------Vennlig hilsen-----
Oystein Fosli, B240
Norsk Hydro a.s           Ph.: (472) 739660       
Postboks 200		  Fax: (472) 739555
1321 STABEKK	     internet: bis@ifi.uio.no
Norway
Newsgroups: no.unix