HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jwa@yog-sothoth.dcrt.nih.gov (James W. Adams)
Subject: Re: avoiding Solaris
Organization: National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, MD
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 20:46:38 GMT

In article <1dtssaINN59p@life.ai.mit.edu> cracraft@rice-chex.ai.mit.edu (Stuart Cracraft) writes:
>
>After a one-month port of a simulator to the Solaris 2.0 environment,
>we are seriously thinking of avoiding Solaris altogether. When you
>[...]
>For most environments in which Sun OS 4.1.2/4.1.3 is currently running,
>System V is a poor replacement, with or without a compatibility package.
>These customers typically do not want a shrink-wrap capable system and
>are more interested in the Berkeley environment. When they find that
>[...]
>marketplace. The majority of SUN users appear to be engineers trying
>to get real work done not related to a specific software product
>that will eventually run on a Sparc platform. The vocal minority
>[...]
>And, although the maintenance of 4.1.X will gradually be eclipsed
>by maintenance of Solaris (e.g. more telephone support, trained
>staff at Sun, etc.) it is unlikely this will occur at all soon.
>There will always remain a large group of SUN users who feel Berkeley
>Unix were the last "good" days. 
>[...]

While the quoted sentiments may reflect the opinions of a large number
of current or recent Sun users, they DO NOT reflect Sun's current market
strategy.  Sun is going after the MIS market and probably couldn't care
less what several thousand engineers, scientists and assorted techies
think.  They want their systems on the desktops of Corporate America and
they are doing what they feel will get them there.

If you want to hold on to 4.1.x, I'd strongly advise you to get a source
license and be prepared to provide your own support.  Sun's newest HW
offerings do not even run 4.1.x at all.  Genuine support for 4.1.x is
likely to go away Real Soon Now.  Remember how fast support for the 
Sun 3 went away.

--
        James W. Adams   --   NIH Scientific Computing Resource Center
        Building 12A, Room 1050              phone: (301) 402-3488
        National Institutes of Health        uucp: uunet!nih-csl!jwa
        Bethesda, MD 20892                   Internet: jwa@alw.nih.gov
Xref: sparky comp.sys.sun.admin:8170 comp.sys.sun.hardware:5500 comp.sys.sun.misc:5209
From: pjsmith@iastate.edu (Phil J Smith)
Subject: Laser Jet IISi problems
Keywords: sun, laserjet
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 16:35:48 GMT

I have a Laser Jet IISi with postscript conected to a Sun SPARCstation2
running SunOS 4.1.1.  I have been unable to get the printer to consistently
print postscript files.  Most of the time, the printer turns on and just
hangs for a while and then spits out a blank page.  I know the Postscript
cartridge is working ok because I have printed Postscript files with no
problem from our MSDOS machine.  I have verified that all of the printer
settings are ok. This problem occurs even when I just cat the file directly
to /dev/ttya.  Anybody have any ideas?


Thanks,


Phil Smith
From: peter@orfeo.rhein-main.de (Peter Radig)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.sun.admin
Subject: Re: Help - OpenWin 3.0 won't run on 4.1.3
Date: 3 Nov 92 04:42:44 GMT
Organization: Peter Radig EDV-Beratung, Frankfurt am Main, Germany
Phone: +49 69 746972
Address: Palmengartenstr. 1, D-W6000 Frankfurt am Main 1, Germany
Fax: +49 69 7411443

In <1992Oct29.210516.10586@engr.uark.edu> adh@alvin.ach.uams.edu (Alvis D. Harding) writes:

>As an aside to the dicussion about running OW without the sunview libraries, is their an 
>OpenWindow version of sundiag?  This is the only reason I installed the sunview package
>on the 630MP I work on.  

The first OpenWindows version of diag will ship with SunOS 5.0 (i.e. Solaris 2.0).

cu,
Peter
From: mgoddard@hpb.hwc.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.sun.admin
Subject: SUMMARY: troff to a PostScript Printer
Date: 7 Nov 92 08:55:21 EST
Organization: Health and Welfare, Canada

I apologize for messing up posting this summary before. I must learn not
rush when I post ... I didn't include the summary file as intended.

Here we go again...


Many thanks to all those who made suggestions on how to get PostScript
versions of man pages.

Briefly, the suggestions were...

  Commercial...
     NeWSPrint .. with pl
     ptroff from Adobe's TranScript
     Answerbook

  Public domain...
     groff
     ptroff
     tgrind
     thack
     troff2ps

I ftp'd thack, it was one of the first suggestions to arrive, and
installed it.  Works beautifully...one happy camper here.

Thanks for the advice all.

                                                   ....[MIchael]
-- 
MGODDARD@HPB.HWC.CA : Michael Goddard : (613) 954-0169 : Fax (613) 952-9798
B9, Environmental Health Centre, Tunney's Pasture, Ottawa, Canada,  K1A 0L2
From: d8arnch@dtek.chalmers.se (Christopher Arnold)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.sun.admin
Subject: Seagate ST42400N on 4/470?
Date: 12 Nov 92 13:44:54 GMT
Organization: Chalmers University of Technology

Hi outthere,

is there anyone who succeded to hook up a Seagate ST42400N to
a SUN 4/470 running SunOS 4.1.2?

I have tried but format just exits with "assertion failed at line XXX"


	/chris

--
Christopher Arnold (SM6PVL)                    ! chris@geo.chalmers.se
Chalmers Univerity of Technology               ! d8arnch@dtek.chalmers.se
Department of Geology                          ! 
S-412 96 Gothenburg, SWEDEN                    ! Day time: (+46) 8 6279080
From: limes@ouroborous.eng.sun.com (Greg Limes)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.sun.admin
Subject: Re: Four processor vs two processor Galaxy systems
Date: 9 Nov 92 13:28:59
Organization: Sun Microsystems Computer Corporation
NNTP-Posting-Host: ouroborous
In-reply-to: ivan@durras.anu.edu.au's message of 9 Nov 92 05:20:41 GMT

In article <ivan.721286441@durras> ivan@durras.anu.edu.au (Ivan Angus - ne Dean) writes:
|   Has anyone managed to produce a summary of what sort of applications
|   cause a four processor system, e.g. 4/690 to run slower than a two
|   processor version of the same system ?

Easy measurement: run "vmstat" for a while. Adding two more CPUs will
be a good idea if you tend to have more than two processes runnable
("r" column under "procs"), and are spending most of your time in user
mode ("us" column under "cpu").

|   ...          The sort of job mix we would subject it to includes
|   running up to sixty Xterminals and a number of telnet style logins, with most
|   users running compilations, plus a small amount of database work. The
|   users are primarily first year University students, so the compilations
|   tend to be small but frequent.

I've had good luck with running lots of compiles in parallel on
a four-processor 690, but it may depend on how much you bottleneck
on your disk subsystem.

|   Along the same lines, is upgrading to 4.1.3 a good idea ? Presumably
|   perfomance patches for Galaxy systems have been rolled into 4.1.3 ?

#insert standard 4.1.3 rant here: "lots of bugs fixed, do it", but
feel free to discount my opinion as I am probably biased and totally
insulated from any costs to upgrade ...

-- Greg Limes [limes@eng.sun.com]
Newsgroups: comp.sys.sun.admin
Subject: Re: problems with amd
From: montjoy@thor.ece.uc.edu (Robert Montjoy)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 22:58:17 GMT
Organization: Unversity of Cincinnati, ECE Dept



Hi.

In article <92Nov11.1913.4225@crash.canon.co.uk> tim@crash.canon.co.uk writes:
>We're running amd5.3beta (alpha #1) to look after the nfs mount
>requirements on our network of sun4s. However, sometimes we have machines
>hanging up, seemingly waiting for amd. The syslog message:
>
>Oct 22 11:03:13 crash vmunix: NFS server amd:140 not responding still trying
>Oct 22 11:03:33 crash vmunix: NFS server amd:140 ok

What is happening is amd is getting "swapped" out. You should 
patch amd to lock the text pages of amd into memory. This should eliminate 
most of these messages. You will need to add the plock system call.
Something like this 

	plock(PROCLOCK);

needs to be added into the main of amd.
You will also need to include <sys/lock.h>( #include <sys/lock.h>).

There was a patch avaliable from at the following location.
		csri.toronto.edu:pub/edwin/amd.plock_patch, amd.README
-- 
Rob Montjoy                   		- Rob.Montjoy@UC.Edu
Computer Engineer    	      		- montjoy@ucbeh.BITNET
University of Cincinnati      		- montjoy@babbage.ece.uc.edu
Electrical and Computer Engineering	- uunet!uceng!rmontjoy

--  To Save the Earth. The Humans must die.
From: grover@vulcan1.edsg.hac.com (Dean Grover)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.sun.admin
Subject: RPC: Can't decode result
Keywords: RPC NFS
Date: 10 Nov 92 20:43:25 GMT
Article-I.D.: hacgate.23952
Reply-To: grover@vulcan1.edsg.hac.com
Organization: Hughes Aircraft Co., El Segundo, CA

Sorry if this is a repost, I haven't seen any replies, so I'll try
again.

Occasionally, we see the following message on some of our systems:

vmunix: NFS getattr failed for server XXXX: RPC: Can't decode result

What does this mean ?  server XXXX is a fileserver, and this message
appears on machines which mount it's /export/home partition. Both machines
involved are running SunOS 4.1.2.

On a possibly related note:  Would turning on UDP checksums help ?
If so, once they are turned on, are errors logged to the console ?

Thanks, (pointers to TFM welcomed)
Dean


---
//////////////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Dean Grover                            
Hughes Aircraft Company                        
adgrover@hac2arpa.hac.com or grover@vulcan1.edsg.hac.com
From: kde@boi.hp.com (Keith Emmen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.sun.admin
Subject: Re: DAT's on 4.1.2
Date: 7 Nov 92 20:29:04 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard / Boise, Idaho
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1scd1 PL4


I solved the problem!  
Actually several people solved the problem for me.

It was the switches on the bottom of the DAT.  1 through 4 had to be
on and 5 through 8 needed to be off. I also added the device to the
st_conf.c file, but it worked just fine before I added it.

Thank you for your help, everyone.

Keith Emmen
kde@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com
From: ddv@unix.brighton.ac.uk (Domenico De Vitto)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.sun.admin
Subject: Re: writing down root password (was Re: Disabling L1-A sequence?)
Date: 12 Nov 92 08:52:07 GMT
Organization: University of Brighton, UK

Comp Sci students.......

Dom De Vitto,
Bsc (Hons) Computer Science Year 2, The University of Brighton, England :)
From: aegl@ossi.com (Tony Luck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.sun.admin
Subject: LOFS partially ignores read-only flag!
Date: 13 Nov 1992 10:01:19 -0800
Organization: Open Systems Solutions Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: nym.ossi.com

System: SPARCserver 4/690MP
Software: SunOS 4.1.2

We have a lot of reference source code ... which we'd like have appear
read-only in our filesystem namespace.  We also add new things regularly
(and sometimes delete old things when the disks fill up).

To manage our disk space, and to make life easier for sysadmins to add
and delete files, we have most of our disks partitioned as one big file
system per drive, this is mounted read-write.  Source code is loaded onto
this partition, and then sub-trees are loop-back mounted to their correct
place in the filesystem (we use the convention:
	"/ref/{supplier}/{product}/{version}/..."


Today somebody was browsing a source file via its "/ref" name using "vi" ...
they were a little startled when they quit the editor to see it write the
file back!

Further investigation showed that the file system was correctly mounted
read-only.  Attempts to create new files failed, as did attempts to remove
existing ones, likewise attempts to change the mode of files or directories.

Anyone seen this?  Is there a SUN patch to fix this?

-Tony Luck <aegl@ossi.com>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.sun.admin
From: atkinson@itd.nrl.navy.mil (Randall Atkinson)
Subject: Re: Mounting /usr/spool/mail from HP?
Organization: Naval Research Laboratory, DC
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 13:14:32 GMT

In some other article, Someone else wrote:
% Suns, on the other hand, depend on their interesting sticky-bit 
% semantics for security,

In article <15441@auspex-gw.auspex.com> guy@Auspex.COM (Guy Harris) writes:
>Actually, the sticky-bit-on-a-directory semantics are *Berkeley's*
>semantics, not Sun's; in addition, AT&T picked them up in some SVR3
>release (with some changes).

  Unfortunately, HP-UX is not compliant with SVID 2.2, it only
complies with SVID 2.0 -- making it closer to SVR2 than anything else.

  Usually reliable sources indicate that HPUX might have a BSD kernel
hiding inside with most of the good stuff ifdef'd out.  We call HPUX
"Caffeine-free diet UNIX" because it is UNIX with nothing. :-)
From: gdmr@dcs.ed.ac.uk (George Ross)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.sun.admin
Subject: Re: problems with amd
Date: 12 Nov 92 14:35:39 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, Edinburgh University

In article <1992Nov11.225817.29248@babbage.ece.uc.edu>, montjoy@thor.ece.uc.edu (Robert Montjoy) writes:
> What is happening is amd is getting "swapped" out. You should 
> patch amd to lock the text pages of amd into memory. This should eliminate 
> most of these messages. You will need to add the plock system call.
> Something like this 
> 
> 	plock(PROCLOCK);
> 
> needs to be added into the main of amd.
> You will also need to include <sys/lock.h>( #include <sys/lock.h>).
> 
> There was a patch avaliable from at the following location.
> 		csri.toronto.edu:pub/edwin/amd.plock_patch, amd.README

We've been plagued by this kind of thing on several of our machines too.  After
the not responding/OK messages we then get "server can't decode arguments" two
or three times  then things hang up completely.  The plock patch cut down on
the first of these but didn't do anything to solve the real problem.  Neither
did re-nicing amd.  Neither did Sun's jumbo lock patch, nor did all the other
kernel patches I've tried.

We've also had problems with amq getting "RPC: Remote system error", which we
fixed in a previous version by upping NEXP_AP from 254 to 1022, but that
doesn't seem to have fixed it this time.

All contributions gratefully received...
-- 
George D M Ross, Department of Computer Science, University of Edinburgh
     Kings Buildings, Mayfield Road, Edinburgh, Scotland, EH9 3JZ
Tel: 031-650 5147   Internet: gdmr@dcs.ed.ac.uk   JANET: gdmr@uk.ac.ed.dcs
Newsgroups: comp.sys.sun.admin
From: chupchup@ferkel.ucsb.edu (Robert Earl)
Subject: Re: rsh and rcp trouble(Where are you?)
Organization: (EVIL!)
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 09:16:39 GMT

mike@chtm.eece.unm.edu (Mike Lang) writes:

| My rhosts file has the other machine name in it.
| DNS and NIS are running.  Whats messed up??

Probably your .cshrc.  Check to see if it is calling programs that
assume you have a controlling tty and/or a utmp entry, cos rcp/rsh
sessions don't have either one.
-- 
robert earl          |
rearl@ucsd.edu       | "I got a bottle of tequila, baby, who needs friends?"
rearl@piggy.ucsb.edu |   --Johnette Napolitano, Concrete Blonde
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 15:23:59 EST
From: <JIW2@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.sun.admin
Subject: DEC RZ55

Help!  Does anyone know who is the real manufacturer of the DEC RZ55?  I
want to reformat one for installation of Solaris 2.0, but before I can even
begin to guess what the format.dat entry should be, I need to know what an
RZ55 really is.  Opening the box is no help; all you see are Digital
stickers, with no sign of the original manufacturer.

If anyone knows what a DEC RZ55 disk really is (or better still, has a
format.dat entry for one of these things), please let me know, either
posted or by E-mail.  Thanks in advance.


                                       John Wagner

                                  jiw2@psuvm.psu.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.sun.admin
From: kde@boi.hp.com (Keith Emmen)
Subject: DAT's on 4.1.2
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 21:13:29 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard / Boise, Idaho
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1scd1 PL4

Well, It's time to ask the net, since I haven't been able to figure it 
out myself.

We have a Sun clone (Hyundai) running vmunix 4.1.2.  We have been
trying to hook a DAT tape drive to the system, and while it is 
recognized at bootup, subsequent attempts to access it result in 
messages implying that it's off line or the tape is not loaded.

When it boots, we see:

      st0 at esp0 target 4 lun 0
      st0: <Vendor 'HP      ' Product 'HP35450A      -A'>

but when we try to talk with mt(1), we see:  (there is no device file st0)

       / # mt -f /dev/rst0 status
      /dev/rst0: no tape loaded or drive offline
       / #

And our kernel configuration file contains:

      scsibus0 at esp                         # declare first scsi bus
      disk sd0 at scsibus0 target 3 lun 0     # first hard SCSI disk
      disk sd1 at scsibus0 target 1 lun 0     # second hard SCSI disk
      disk sd2 at scsibus0 target 2 lun 0     # third hard SCSI disk
      disk sd3 at scsibus0 target 0 lun 0     # fourth hard SCSI disk
      tape st0 at scsibus0 target 4 lun 0     # first SCSI tape
      tape st1 at scsibus0 target 5 lun 0     # second SCSI tape
      disk sr0 at scsibus0 target 6 lun 0     # CD-ROM device

Anyone wanna tackle this one??

Keith Emmen
kde@hpdmd48.boi.hp.com
(208) 323-2861
Newsgroups: comp.sys.sun.admin
From: mfraioli@grebyn.com (Marc Fraioli)
Subject: Re: Disabling L1-A sequence?
Organization: Grebyn Timesharing
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 21:41:05 GMT

In article <15389@auspex-gw.auspex.com> guy@Auspex.COM (Guy Harris) writes:
>>There is a file in /etc, either /etc/ttys or /etc/ttytab (I use both
>>SunOS and Ultrix machines, and I can't currently remember which is
>>which).  The first line in the file should contain the word "console".
>>There will be the word "secure" on that same line.
>
>In SunOS 4.x, it's "/etc/ttytab" (for binary-compatibility reasons),
>but...
>
>>I think that if you delete the word "secure", L1-A will be disabled.
>
>...note that it doesn't completely *disable* L1-A, it just means that if
>you try to come up single-user on the console, it'll ask you for the
>root password.
>
You're right, of course.  I assumed that security was the issue here and
wrote my response in that way.  I suppose that something like file
system integrity could have been the issue as well.
-- 
Marc Fraioli
mfraioli@grebyn.com	        	(So I'm a minimalist...)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.sun.admin,comp.sys.sun.misc,comp.unix.ultrix
From: sgccpxb@citec.oz.au (Paul Brown 2245719)
Subject: Re: ?Postscript to HP PCL converter
Organization: CITEC
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 02:40:20 GMT

WordPerfect comes with a converter to HP PCL (not sure if its PCL 4 or 5)


-- 
+----------------------+-----------------------------------------------------+
|Justin Ryall          |                                                     |
|                      |                                                     |
|under the guise -     |                                                     |
From: craig@ec.uwa.oz.au (Craig Richmond - division)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.sun.admin
Subject: Re: Disabling L1-A sequence?
Date: 10 Nov 1992 09:11:40 GMT
Organization: The University of Western Australia
NNTP-Posting-Host: decel.ecel.uwa.edu.au

mfraioli@grebyn.com (Marc Fraioli) writes:

>In article <23694@galaxy.ucr.edu> masterm@ucrengr.ucr.edu (Boyle Mow) writes:
>>Forgive me if this a FAQ, but is there a way to disable the key
>>sequence of 'L1-A' (used to enter the PROM)?   Thanks in advance.
>
>delete the word "secure", L1-A will be disabled.  I would be very
>careful about doing this, though, because that L1-A ability has saved my
>butt before...

More to the point.  It would be a good idea to keep your root password
written down and be very careful when you change it.  Better idea would be
to log in on the console, secure the console so that L1-A is not secure.
Install your major software mods or strange evil packages likely to crash
the machine horribly.  Once your happy it works and isn't going to die
horribly, unsecure the console again.  If the console is not secure, you
need a password to get into single user mode.  If you don't have the
password it is messy at best.

Craig
--
Craig Richmond.  Computer Officer -  Dept of Economics (morning) 380 3860
  University of Western Australia    Dept of Education (afternoon)
craig@ecel.uwa.edu.au Dvorak Keyboards RULE!  "Messes are only acceptable
if users make them.  Applications aren't allowed this freedom" I.M.VI 2-4
From: brown@ftms.UUCP (Vidiot)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.sun.admin
Subject: Re: Newsprint with OW3 - any changes required??
Date: 9 Nov 92 16:55:36 GMT
Reply-To: brown@ftms.UUCP (Vidiot)
Organization: Vidiot's Other Hangout

In article <BxD3Hn.D2C@news.cso.uiuc.edu> goyle@tortie.me.uiuc.edu (Vipin Goyle) writes:
<Hi,
<
<I just changed the default openwindows version 2 to version 3. Problem is now my
<printer doesn't print out anything (eg. when i send it a file to print with 
<"filep"). It's giving me the following errors....

If you have NeWSprint set to use the loaded OpenWindows, you WILL have problems.
Reload NeWSprint and have it use the small_openwin that comes with NeWSprint.
NeWSprint 1.0 must use OW 2.0, not 3.0.

As a side note, to remove many NeWSprint bugs and redering problems, upgrade
to NeWSprint 2.0.  It is well worth it.  You don't have to purchase a new
NeWSprint, since there is an upgrade price.
-- 
harvard\
  ucbvax!uwvax!astroatc!ftms!brown  or  uu2.psi.com!ftms!brown
rutgers/
INTERNET: brown@wi.extrel.com  or  ftms!brown%astroatc.UUCP@cs.wisc.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.sun.admin
From: stiles@cray.com (John Stiles)
Subject: panic dup biodone
Reply-To: stiles@cray.com
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 11 Nov 92 11:52:54 CST

Twice now in the last 3 months, our Sun4/280 has panic'ed with a 'dup biodone'.
Anyone out there have any idea what this means?

Thanks in advance.

---
John.Stiles@cray.com
Cray Research, Inc.
1620 Olson Dr.
Chippewa Falls,  WI  54729
From: olsenc@carson.u.washington.edu (Clint Olsen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.sun.admin
Subject: Re: avoiding Solaris
Date: 12 Nov 92 21:56:59 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Nov12.215659.20751
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <1dtssaINN59p@life.ai.mit.edu> cracraft@rice-chex.ai.mit.edu (Stuart Cracraft) writes:
>
>After a one-month port of a simulator to the Solaris 2.0 environment,
>we are seriously thinking of avoiding Solaris altogether. When you
>carefully look at what can be achieved in-house when vendors don't
>change out platforms from under the customer (e.g. more real work)
>vs. when they do (e.g. catch-up make-work), it is very easy to 
>conclude that stepping into the Solaris 2.0 platform could waste
>up to a man-year of one staff member's time doing porting, conversions,
>learning System V unix, and so forth.
>
>For most environments in which Sun OS 4.1.2/4.1.3 is currently running,
>System V is a poor replacement, with or without a compatibility package.
>These customers typically do not want a shrink-wrap capable system and
>are more interested in the Berkeley environment. When they find that
>System V, Release 4 requires rewriting hundreds of their shell scripts
>originally written under 4.1.X, even more additional conversion time
>must be budgeted.
>

I think that there are many people who feel the way you do.  System V
is a BIG step backward in terms of compatibility and networking.  It's
a shame that the BSD project could be coming to an end.

I will be happy to upgrade to SunOS 4.1.3, but will NOT be interested
in being a guinea pig for Sun's new obomination with System V.  The next
few years of Sun administration is going to be REALLY scary.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Clint Olsen 
olsenc@u.washington.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------------