From: wang@ibma6.cs.uiuc.edu (Eric Wang)
Subject: Re: Glorfindel Has Risen From the Grave
Reply-To: wang@cs.uiuc.edu
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 10:15:19 GMT

 [Oops, on my first attempt at posting this, I forgot to set
  distribution to 'world', so it never made it beyond uiuc.  Here it is
  again.]

awolanow@us.oracle.com (Areiel Wolanow) writes:

>>However, in the Silmarilion, as well as in Unfinished Tales, it is
>>mentioned that while leading a group of elves who were fleeing the
>>fall of Gondolin, lord Glorfindel entered into a battle with a Balrog
>>(I believe the Balrog's name was Gothmog, although that might have
>>been the name of the balrog who Ecthelion of the Fountain instead). In
>>this battle, both Glorfindel and Gothmog were slain.

Gothmog and Ecthelion of the Fountain killed each other in a single duel
at the gates of Gondolin.  Later, during the escape, Glorfindel fought
another (lesser) unnamed Balrog (all Balrogs were lesser than Gothmog,
by definition :-)), and they both died when they fell off the mountain.
("Damn," says the Morgoth player, "two consecutive EX's on 1-4
attacks!")  I hold to the view that Glorfindel was hopelessly
outmatched, and "won" only by intentionally pulling the Balrog off the
ledge, a move which the Balrog didn't expect.  Had Glorfindel fought a
regular stand-up fight, the Balrog would have stomped him into the
ground and trashed the rest of the escape group.  (Balrogs kick butt,
even Noldor butt.)  Instead, Glorfindel committed himself to luring the
Balrog to the edge of the precipice, then tackling him and dragging him
over.  No way was Glorfindel good enough to do that *and* survive, and
he knew it.  So he fought to set up the kamikaze charge, and took the
Balrog by surprise (since it's not something against which a fighter
would normally expect to have to defend), and the Balrog's reflexive
defensive reaction wasn't sufficient to stop this suicidal rush.  But
the only way that Balrog could lose was for as mighty a warrior as
Glorfindel to intentionally sacrifice himself in this way, and it worked
only because of their precarious location on a narrow mountain trail.
Had the Elves (and Tuor and E\"arendil) been escaping across a prairie,
they would have been stick-toast.

Even after Glorfindel's sacrifice, the escape party was in dire straits,
because they were exposed to archery from the Orcs in that enemy group.
But the Eagles arrived immediately afterwards and routed the Orcs.
Thorondor flew down into the crevasse and brought Glorfindel's body
back, and his comrades entombed him a rock cairn before making good
their escape.  They never would have made it if he hadn't taken the
Balrog.

>>How then is he alive again to encounter Aragorn and the hobbits near the
>>ford? The only answer I have been able to come up with is the vague and
>>unsatisfying statement made in the Silmarilion that elves are sometimes
>>allowed to return in spirit from the Halls of Mandos.

djdaneh@pbhyc.PacBell.COM (Dan'l DanehyOakes) writes:

>Technically, there's nothing that says it has to be the same
>Glorfindel; but it is generally agreed by students of the Elder Days
>... that the two "Glorfindels" are, indeed, the same individual.

I always thought that the Glorfindel at the ford was simply another elf
who happened to have been given the same name, possibly in honor of the
original Glorfindel (such as the first male child born to one of the
escapees).  If it was the original Glorfindel come back to life, I think
he would have been much more prevalent in the Third Age than he was -- I
don't recall seeing him mentioned again in LotR after this one clash
with the Nazgul.  I just can't see how somebody who once took out a
Balrog could fade out of the limelight so completely -- he'd be at least
the equal of Elrond in prestige among Elves.

 [Having since read other responses in this thread that explain
  Tolkien's ideas of Elven reincarnation more clearly, I guess I'm
  mistaken, and it really is the same Glorfindel, or a functional
  equivalent.  But __at the time that I read LOTR__, I did notice the
  re-use of Glorfindel's name, and the above is an accurate description
  of my opinion at that time.  Tolkien's proto-ideas, Unfinished Tales,
  Annotated *, and so on, had yet to be published back then, and LOTR
  never really makes an issue of reincarnation.  I still stand by my
  opinion that, for an elf of the prestige and standing he must have
  commanded, Glorfindel was remarkably absent from the rest of LOTR.]

Picture this:
    ...
    "Ai, ai!" cried Legolas.  "A Balrog!"
    "Durin's Bane!" Gimli muttered, and he dropped his ax and covered his
  eyes.
    "A Balrog," said Gandalf wearily.  "Now I understand."
    Frodo tugged frantically on Gandalf's robes.  "Gandalf," he asked,
  "do you remember that Glorfindel gave me a card before we left
  Rivendell?  Look at it now!"  In his free hand, he held up
  Glorfindel's card.  On the smooth side that had once been blank, faint
  letters, glowing with a fiery light that seemed to burn from a great
  distance, now read:

	+-------------------------------------------------------+
	|       Glorfindel's Balrog Extermination Service       |
	|                                                       |
	|             Having trouble with a Balrog?             |
	|                Give Glorfindel a call!                |
	|                                                       |
	|                   No job too small                    |
	|                   No 'rog too tall                    |
	|                                                       |
	| Slaying of Balrogs Next to Deep Crevasses A Specialty |
	|                                                       |
	|  Body retrieval & embalming extra.  Subcontracted to  |
	|    Eagle Deliveries & Salvage, Inc., unless other     |
	|           arrangements made with client.              |
	+-------------------------------------------------------+

  "If we called him now," Frodo continued, "he could be here in just a
  few hours.  Surely we can simply out-run this Balrog for that long?"
    "Glorfindel ..." spat the Balrog, looking visibly unhappy.  Rounding
  on the Orcs, the Balrog snapped, "You swore to me that this labor was
  *easy*!"
    "Well, that's that," said Aragorn briskly.  "Let us be off; we'll
  lead this vile creature and his lapdogs on a merry chase through the
  halls of Moria.  Gandalf, what ails you?"
    Gandalf frowned, looking puzzled.  "I know not; a nagging feeling
  that I was meant to become something here."  After a moment's pause,
  he shrugged and straightened up.  "I have spoken with Glorfindel.  He
  is on his way with all haste, and shall arrive straightaway.  Come, we
  have much dodging and ducking to do until then."
    Letting his ax lie where it had fallen, Gimli raised his head and
  gazed for a long moment into the eyes of the bane of his forefathers.
  Shuddering deeply, he said, "Watch where you step," then turned and
  trotted quickly after his departing comrades.
    "Oh, shit," muttered the Balrog woefully, bowing his head and giving
  belabored chase, the Orcs falling timidly into place behind him.
  "What means he by that?  I *hate* this place ..."

:-)

Eric Wang
wang@sml0.ge.uiuc.edu
From: Beth.Friedman@p5.f341.n282.z1.tdkt.kksys.com (Beth Friedman)
Sender: FredGate@tdkt.kksys.com