From: ah724@yfn.ysu.edu (Sundara Pandian)
Subject: Re: Thiruppaavai Verses 18-20
Reply-To: ah724@yfn.ysu.edu (Sundara Pandian)
Organization: St. Elizabeth Hospital, Youngstown, OH
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 01:17:03 GMT


In a previous article, selvakum@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca (C.R.Selvakumar - Electrical Engineering) says:

>In article <1993Jan4.174643.18163@news.ysu.edu> ah724@yfn.ysu.edu (Sundara Pandian) writes:
>>
>>In a previous article, srini@ireq-num.hydro.qc.ca (Srinivasan K.) says:
>>
>>>In article <C0Aqty.9Ay@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca> selvakum@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca
>>> (C.R.Selvakumar - Electrical Engineering) writes:
>>>>        that these songs are supreme 'silEdais' ( pun).
>>>>
>>>>        I wonder anyone out there has more philosophical
>>>>        'urai' for these songs..who can post some excerpts..
>>>
>>>I have a 'uRai' by a 'mElkOttai'(Karnataka) swamigaL. It is
>>          ^^^^^^
>> Typo. It is `urai'.
>
>      Yes, uRai means to freeze. 'uRai pani' is solid ice ( because
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>      pani by itself although can mean ice can denote dew; hence to
>      emphasize solid ice.. I used write home about the snow as
                                                        ^^^^^^^^
>      nurai pani and pani_maavu or maNaRpani depending on the kind of
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>      snow..)

         I think Tamil people refer to `solid ice' by `panik katti'
   in Tamil. `pani' = `snow' and `katt' = `solid'. It is a direct
   translation. In colloquial Tamil, Tamils say `ice' katti. 

        I like your translation `uRai pani' for `snow' among the
  three translations you have given. I will translate `snow' as
  `panith thuLi'.  An usage:

  `panith thuLikaL mElE vizha panith thariyil nadandhEn..'


       Another meaning for `uRai' that you have not given is
 `cover'. `thabaal uRai' means `a letter envelope'. Tamils don't
 use the word `anchal' for `post' used in postal offices in TN.
 They always call it as `thabaal office'. I think this word is from
 Hindi (thabaal). In ancient Tamil, `anchal', has a different 
 meaning however. `anchal' meant `a woman' in ancient Tamil and 
 they used `madal' to refer to `letters'. Now, `madal' is hardly
 used in spoken Tamil. A similar Tamil word `manu' means a 
 `complaint' and this is probably from the English `menu'.

>>
>> `Thiruvembaavai'  is a work by Maniccavasakar. His other popular
>>Tamil work is his `Thiruvaacakam'.  Maniccavasakar belonged to
>                                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>the 9th century, A.D. I think that the word `vaacakam' in his
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>       Sundara Pandian is right. Thiruvembavai was written by
>       MaaNikkavaachagar supposedly in ThiruvaNNaamalai ( one
>       of the most sacred places). But MaaNikkavaachagar's period
                                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>       is NOT 9th century A.D. This view of MaaNikkavaachagars
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>       period as 900 A.D was developed apparently
>       because Appar ( Thirunaavukkarasar) and Sambandhar ( Thiru
>       NYaanasambandhar) who lived in 7th century did not 
>       mention about MaaNikkavaachagar. There has been much written
>       on this ( examples: Maraimalai AdigaL and more recently
                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>           Dr. Sivappriya has written many articles in Senthamizh Selvi
             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>       in the 1990s claiming earlier date around 300 A.D. 
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

      On what grounds? This seems to me pretty far-fetched . 
   These claims remind me of what I read lately, Kanchi Acharya's
  claims that Adi Sankara did not live in the 7th century, A.D., as
  accepted by historians, but many centuries earlier, around the
  first century B.C.  I believe that Manikkavasakar belonged to the
  Bhakti movement which was started in the middle of the first millenium
  and became a success in the Tamil country. As Appar and Sambanthar
  don't refer to Manikkavasakar, it is reasonable to place Manikkavasakar
  in a later period.  It is accepted by current Tamil scholars that
  `Thirukkural' is a post-Sangam work  and its period is 450-550 A.D.
  Claims like `Thiruvaasagam' predates `ThirukkuraL' is far-fetched in
  my opinion.

>
>       I believe that Thiruvembaavai was written earlier ( it has only
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>       20 songs unlike Thiruppaavai ) than Thiruppaavai.


    I will write about this later.
  
>
>>`Thiruvaacakam' has a Sanskrit origin. Is it from `vasanam' ?
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>     Do you mean the word 'thiruvaasagam' contains a Sanskrit word
>     'vaasagam' ? The word 'vaasagam' is often taken to be of Sanskrit
>     origin. However, vaay > vaach > vaak is quite a possibility.
>     vaay = mouth. vaaymozhi is a tamil usage. vaaymai means truth
>     ( original sense could have been 'true word'). vaakku = god's
>      words ( note: aruL vaakku). 
>     In tamil 'ya' becoming 'cha' is common 
>             ( examples: paay ( flow) > paasanam ; 
>                         kay ( bitter) > kasappu;
>                         payalkaL ( boys) > pasangaL; 
>                         kuyavan(potter) > kusavan
>              and so on..)
>     However, the word stem 'vaach or vaak' has strong connections to
>     indoeuropean languages ( note the english words: 'vocal' and 'voice' and
>     many words based on 'voc' ) and is quite well represented though
>     I think mostly in romance languages ( latinic). Since the word
>     'vaasagam' can be shown to be derived from Sanskrit many ( esp those
>     who would consider any word in Skt with or without indoeuropean
>     cognates as Sanskrit) consider it to be a Sanslkrit word.
>     
>     But taking the Tamil sense of vaasagam as vaaymozhi or True_words
>     or niRaimozhi we have an esoteric sense. [ niRaimozhi means
>     sacred truths. ThiruvaLLuvar's 
>        'niRaimozhi maanthar perumai nilaththu
>         maRaimozhi kaatti vidum"
>    and a similar one in Tholkaapiyam are examples of 'niRaimozhi']
>    I believe that 'vaasagam' is a Tamil word especailly in the sense
>    used in Tamil. 
>
>>His work `Thiruvaacakam' was acclaimed by the poets in his days
>                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>and I remember one verse praising this work. I don't remember
>>who wrote this `veNpaa' but it is probably by Campanthar. It is,
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>     No, not by Campanthar who lived in 6th-7th century. The following
>     'veNpaa' is sung by Raamalinga AdigaL ( also known as
>      vaLLalaar), I think. 
>
>    Yes. Thiruvaasagam was nd is considered as the supreme work in the
>    Saiva tradition. There was a 'marabu' ( = practice or tradition) that
>    one should NOT write an ''urai' for it because only those who are
>    'truly enlightend or Realized' are capable of writing one and
>    thus for many many years there was no 'urai' as no one felt 
>    worthy enough ( mere Tamil scholarship is NOT enough). This view
>    was apparently because of the words in Thiruvaasagam :
>         'solliya paattin poruL uNarthu solluvaar
>            selvar sivapuraththil uLLaar'
>         [ those who tell the meaning of these songs are truly
>           in the 'enlightened world' ( sivapuram) fully realized.]
>>
>> "vaan_kalantha  maanicca vaasaka_nin  vaasakaththai
>>  naan_kalanthu paadunkaal caR_kaRuppanch chaatrinilE
>>  thEn_kalanthu  paal_kalanthu chezhun_karumbuc chuvai_kalanthu
>>  oon_kalanthu uyir_kalanthu uvappaamal inippadhuvE."
>>
>>>K. Srinivasan at Hydro Quebec.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>-- 
>>pax vobiscum,
>>sundara pandian.
>>ah724@yfn.ysu.edu
>
>
>       anbudan
>       - Selva
>

-- 
sundara pandian
ah724@yfn.ysu.edu

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