HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dl@indetech.com (David Lieberman)
Subject: Re: Cardew and "people's music"
Organization: Independence Technologies, Inc. Fremont, CA
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 14:44:50 GMT

In article <1992Aug27.153924.14932@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin) writes:
>steve@fid.morgan.com (Steve Apter) wrote:
>> Please read the article of CC's I cited.  Pay special attention to the
>> last several pages, wherein Cardew calls for an end to "formalist
>> garbage", and sounds the trumpet for a "people's music", presumably
>> of the sort you deride, presumably overseen by committees consisting
>> of the politically enlightened.
>
>
>It's a fair question to ask what happens when limited resources have to be
>allocated, and conflicts result, like who gets to use the concert hall.
>Well, the way access to halls and orchestras is determined now is no
>miracle of democracy, is it?  When did you last get to vote for your local
>orchestra's board of management?  When did you last see a community-based
>working-class arts group get to use your local concert hall for anything?

My wife, a "worker," is a violinist in the local proletarian orchestra.
Within 20 miles of where I sit there must be several hundred community
based orchestras, opera companies and theater groups.  They all seem
to find places to perform.  I am sure that behind the scenes, the "bosses"
are trying to stop them.  Remarkable how ineffective they are.

>
>It would be interesting to compare the programming of Soviet orchestras
>under Stalin with those of typical American orchestras under their
>corporate-influenced dictatorships.  Were they very different?

The world of moral equivalence and historical irony according to Jack
Campin:

1.  Theorem:  The UK is no better than Nazi Germany.

  Proof:
 
   i.  The Host Wessel Lied is a disgusting nationalistic anthem.

   ii. Rule Britannia is a disgusting nationalistic anthem.

   iii.  Q.E.D.


2.  Theorem:  The cultural policies of the "democratic west" are
              no better than those of Stalinist Russia.

  Proof:

   i.  They played lots of Beethoven in their concert halls.

   ii. We play lots of Beethonven in our concert halls.

   iii. Q.E.D.


I eagerly await the next revalation. 


>
>-- 
>--  Jack Campin    room G092, Computing Science Department, Glasgow University,
>17 Lilybank Gardens, Glasgow G12 8RZ, Scotland   TEL: 041 339 8855 x6854 (work)
>INTERNET: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk or via nsfnet-relay.ac.uk    FAX: 041 330 4913
>BANG!net: via mcsun and uknet     BITNET: via UKACRL    UUCP: jack@glasgow.uucp


-- 
____*_  David Lieberman             dl@indetech.com
\  / /  Independence Technologies   {sun,uunet,pacbell}!indetech!dl
 \/ /   42705 Lawrence Place        FAX: 510 438-2034
  \/    Fremont, CA 94538           Voice: 510 438-2030
From: marcus@aero.org (Leo Marcus)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Korngold
Date: 31 Aug 1992 21:50:06 GMT
Organization: The Aerospace Corporation, El Segundo, CA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: armadillo.aero.org
Summary: Suite and String Quartet


Someone asked about Korngold. I have some partial information.

I know best the Suite for piano left hand, two violins, and cello; it  is
VERY good, if not great. Some sections are convincingly Mahlerian.

I have also heard the scherzo from (one of ?) the string quartet(s);
it is also very good and very Brucknerian.


Leo
From: jdhill@star-trek.bbn.com (Jack D. Hill)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Nigel Kennedy
Date: 31 Aug 1992 13:05:04 GMT
Organization: Bolt Beranek and Newman Inc., Cambridge MA
Reply-To: jdhill@BBN.COM (Jack D. Hill)
NNTP-Posting-Host: archive.bbn.com


I enjoyed the piece they did on Kennedy for CBS Sunday Morning. He's very
refreshing! It was funny hearing him call everyone "monster". 
... to Edo DeWart before a rehearsal - "Hey monster, how ya doin'." DeWart got
a kick out of that.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: mikulska@crux.Princeton.EDU (Margaret Mikulska)
Subject: Re: records-database
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 19:01:43 GMT

In article <CB.92Aug31122022@tamarack13.timbuk> cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster) writes:
>
[about databases for recordings]
>
>Data about recordings is
>actually pretty complex and difficult to manage effectively.  Although I
>haven't bit the bullet and done the work yet, I've thought about how I
>want to approach it.  My main aim for a recordings database would be to
>eliminate redundant typing while allowing complete flexibility in how
>the data is retrieved.  I think this aim requires a fully relational
>database (such as Alpha 4, Personal RBase and not many others).  
>
>In other words I would have separate tables of recordings (by number),
>performers, composers, works, etc.  Each table item would be typed only
>once.  A table item would point to items in other tables.  The table of
>recordings would need to occupy a central position in this structure.
>With this structure, you could inquire about all the pieces played by a
>certain performer, all the recordings of composer X played by performer
>Y, etc.  Any less flexibility would greatly reduce my motivation to
>create a recordings database.
>
>Maybe we should hear from Dave Lampson on how *he* structures his data
>(or anyone else with such a system already operating).


As opposed to our regular fact-ladden scheduled programming, now it's 
clearly time for personal, biased opinions.

I think that it's really an overkill to use a heavy-duty commercial
database.  I don't think that data about recordings are complex, and in
my greatly biased opinion a flat ascii file plus a few UNIX tools - grep,
awk, and sort should do for most purposes - is entirely adequate for
retrieving any kind of information needed.  And all these tools are free
once you have UNIX.

The really hard part is typing in the entries.  A randomly typing monkey
is of little use, unfortunately.


-Margaret

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: jonms@watson.ibm.com ()
Subject: Re: Supertitling
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 21:16:33 GMT
Reply-To: jonms@pi.watson.ibm.com ()
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

In article <1992Aug30.122952.7858@lloyd.Camex.COM>,
chrisi@lloyd.Camex.COM (Chris Ischay) writes:
> In article <Btp9nG.MuI@news.udel.edu> conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad)
> writes:
> 
> >In article <1992Aug27.215817.13690@fid.morgan.com> steve@fid.morgan.com
> (Steve Apter) writes:
> 
> >>One of the reasons I enjoy NY City Opera is their use of supertitles.
> >>Sorry, my Italian** is just not good enough to follow the story line
> >>of an unfamiliar opera.  Any opinions on the use of this technology?
> >
> >I have an opinion, an unpopular one.  I hate them.  I think they wreck
> >the live experience of an opera, and turn it into television (I don't
  I agree.  Watching supertitles is comparable to watching a movie and trying
  to read the book at the same time.
> 
> I have two opinions about surtitles.  For myself, I'd rather either prepare
> enough to enjoy the opera in its original language or hear it in my own
> language.
> 
  A book with all the popular librettos costs 1/2 the price of a ticket.  It
  is well worth the time to familiarize oneself with an opera first, it will
  be more enjoyable if you're not sitting their confused.  Translations into
  other than original language ruin a libretto when not expertly done.
>
>> >  I really think that the
> >prevalence of supertitles will kill opera in the next few decades,
> >because the medium will become nothing more than an idle evening's
> >time-killer, just like 3 hours of prime time.  
> 
> I suppose some might call any opera enthusiast an elitist.
> Just like the ones who use "museum" as a pejorative.
> 
  That is why NYC is a great place for opera.  If you cannot manage without
  reading supertitles go to the NYC Opera. Or if you're more traditional and
  do your homework, go to the Met, "it pays".
> Chris Ischay
> chrisi@camex.com
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: spg@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Stephen P. Guthrie)
Subject: Re: Top Five Russian Operas (was: Top Ten Operas)
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 23:29:16 GMT

In article <1992Sep1.223909.11358@viewlogic.com> brad@baby.viewlogic.com (Bradford Kellogg) writes:
>
>
>One that I haven't seen mentioned yet:
>
>Prokofiev - War and Peace
>
>Considering the weight of the book, and the Russian cinematic 
>production, you might expect the opera to be Wagnerian in length,
>but Serge kept it to a reasonable length.

Are you kidding? It's nearly five hours!!!


Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: grumpy@jpradley.jpr.com (Jeff Markel)
Subject: Re: Wedding music suggestions?
Reply-To: grumpy@jpradley.UUCP (Jeff Markel)
Organization: Unix in NYC
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 17:10:49 GMT

In article <1992Aug17.090943.9067@lloyd.Camex.COM> chrisi@lloyd.Camex.COM (Chris Ischay) writes:
>In article <1992Aug15.173924.19765@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> ac220@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Rich Szabo) writes:
>>
>>Anyone have some suggestions for good wedding ceremony music?
>>I would like to solicit your ideas.  
>
>I've always been very fond of the second movement of Bach's double violin
>concerto.  There's something about the intertwining of the two voices that
>seems ultimately suited to weddings.  You wouldn't want to play the whole
>movement unless it's a loooong walk up the aisle, but it's easy to find a
>good chunk to excerpt.
>
>Chris Ischay
>chrisi@camex.com
>(note: my address has changed)

For wedding music I've always been partial (used it in my own wedding) to
Mozart's duet for Papageno and Pamina near the end of the 1st act of 
The Magic Flute (sorry, the text escapes me).

                        Jeff Markel

Jeffrey Markel | uucp:     jpradley!argos!markel   | Argos Computer Systems Inc
KD2HN          | internet: grumpy@jpradley.jpr.com | 110 W. 32nd Street 
(212)594-5400  | amprnet:  kd2hn@kd2hn.ampr.org    | New York, NY 10001
===============================================================================
	The New World Order is ... "Shoot to kill!"
===============================================================================
From: lana@magenta.corp.sgi.com (Lana Mountford)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Top Five Russian Operas (was: Top Ten Operas)
Date: 1 Sep 92 18:29:11 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.

In article <1992Sep1.153712.25618@linus.mitre.org>, rwilmer@zinka.mitre.org (R. Wilmer) writes:
|> In article <1992Aug31.232111.8930@odin.corp.sgi.com> lana@magenta.corp.sgi.com (Lana Mountford) writes:
|> >
|> >I cast my votes for the following:
|> >
|> >1)  The Fair at Sorochinsk
|> >2)  Prince Igor
|> >3)  The Invisible City of Kitezh
|> >4)  Love for Three Oranges
|> >5)  Boris Godonov
|> >-- 
|> 
|> What?  No Tchaikowsky?

Well, I was listing my *favorites*, and my favorites don't include 
Tchaikowsky. :-)  If I had to list the NEXT five, though, I'd definitely
include Queen of Spades, and probably Onegin.

|> 
|> Two others that I recommend are Mussorsky's Khovanshina and
|> Tchaikowsky's Sorceress.

Khovanshchina would also make my "next five" list, although I find it
almost too "dark" for my tastes.

-- 

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
|    /)                      | Lana Mountford    
|   / /  __    ___    __     | Silicon Graphics  
|__(_/__(__)\__/  )__(__)\__ | Mountain View, CA 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Bach undervalued? (was: Beethoven - overvalued?)
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 16:44:38 GMT

In article <1992Sep2.134524.26910@odin.diku.dk> zqex@diku.dk (Carsten Svaneborg) writes:
>vanloon@cwi.nl (Maarten van Loon) writes:
>
>>>>No, No, I was right the first time. Beethoven comes first, then Mozart, then
>>>>Bach in fifth spot. After all, Mozart is in fourth.
>>>>>> email: vanloon@cwi.nl  Not knowing Bach = not really living
>>>>				       ^^^^
>>>>another careless mistake. This should be Beethoven.

>>As far as I can see, this is the best proof that Van Beethoven in
>>overvalued indeed.

>>>  Everybody has his own favourite to be the greatest composer of all. You
>>>  are really stupid, if you insist on Beethoven like that! 
>>>  Especially as I have Bach in the first place and after him I don't care...

>>Yes. Bach comes first. I think it's time to ask: why is Bach so undervalued?
>>I see relatively too less article on Bach. And after all, he was the
>>greatest composer ever.

>Yes. Bach comes first!

>You havent realy heard classic music before you have heard 
>Bachs mass in B-minor, Its the sublimation of all "real" music.

No doubt you've *heard* all of "real" music, so you can make such
a judgment.

Oh, and how does one sublimate music?  

>Or his consert for two flutes, 

Is this the 4th Brandenburg?  That has 2 flutes, but it's a violin
concerto.

>Tocata and fuge in D, 

Major or minor?  The latter may be by another composer.

>or the Goldberg Variations.

>What has Beethoven ever wrote witch are just half as good!

The last five piano sonatas.  The last six quartets.  The Ninth.  
The Diabelli variations.  The fourth piano concerto.  The Archduke
Trio.    

Shall I go on?

>The only Bethoven piece I can remember is the fifth 
>( What else ), it is pritty good, espacialy in the end.

Ah.  I see.  You don't *know* Beethoven, therefore you know he isn't
any good.  Funny, I heard people saying things like that about John
Cage around here.

Could "best" mean "the one *I* like?"  Or "the one I know how to listen
to"?  

>Have you heard any music written by Georg Fillip Telemann, he lived 
> (I cannt remember exactly) in the same century as Bach, and he was,
>when he was living, more famous than Bach, but nowadays his is more
>or less forgotten.

Hardly forgotten.  I hear his music quite often on the radio and in
concerts.  

>But his music it comparable with that of Bach, in my apinion.

In what way?  Does it sublimate other music?

Roger
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: schissel@mace.Princeton.EDU (Eric Schissel)
Subject: Re: Mozart Piano Sonatas: Recordings?
Organization: Cornell University
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 21:58:42 GMT

I have Pires on Denon in K.533/494, K.545, K.570 and K.576 (more
or less the last 4 of Mozart's piano sonatas) and the dminor
fantasy as well- a fine disk of wonderful music.  I hadn't
known K.533/494 or K.570 before getting that disk and they
are treats, so to speak.

schissel@math.cornell.edu
schissel@mace.princeton.edu (machine used to make post)
 
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: jwa@vipunen.hut.fi (Jyrki J Wahlstedt)
Subject: Re: Oboe sizes        was           Re: clarinet arcana and transposition
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
	<1992Aug30.200929.4650@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz>
	<1992Aug30.185613.1@eagle.wesleyan.edu>
	<1992Sep1.001129.7083@usceast.cs.scarolina.edu>
	<dgold.0jcu@basso.actrix.gen.nz>
Date: 3 Sep 92 01:47:09

In article <dgold.0jcu@basso.actrix.gen.nz> dgold@basso.actrix.gen.nz (Dale Gold) writes:

>The dreaded Heckelphone.  The Alpine Symphony uses one as I remember,
>and Salome even has a little solo which you might hear if you know when 
>to listen for it.

  Also the finnish composer Kalevi Aho uses this instrument in his
  6th symphony.
--
!
!	Jyrki Wahlstedt
!		Jyrki.Wahlstedt@hut.fi
!
!  Our life is no dream, but it should and will perhaps become one.
!
From: smoliar@argon.iss.nus.sg (stephen smoliar)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: John Cage is Dead
Date: 26 Aug 92 22:43:02 GMT
Reply-To: smoliar@iss.nus.sg (stephen smoliar)
Organization: Institute of Systems Science, NUS, Singapore

In article <1992Aug26.170343.10602@fid.morgan.com> steve@fid.morgan.com (Steve
Apter) writes:
>
>Brian Yoder calls Cage evil.  You foam at the mouth.  Cornelius
>Cardew calls Cage soulless.  You laugh it off.  Something's gone
>wrong here. 
>
The main thing Paul de Man taught at Yale was how to read texts.  I get the
impression that you are not doing too well with Cardew's texts (including the
very excerpts you reproduced) or my own.  What seems to be wrong is that you
are trying to read Cardew the same way you read Yoder.
-- 
Stephen W. Smoliar; Institute of Systems Science
National University of Singapore; Heng Mui Keng Terrace
Kent Ridge, SINGAPORE 0511
Internet:  smoliar@iss.nus.sg
From: dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker)
Subject: Re: Korngold
Organization: Camosun College, Victoria BC, Canada
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 01:23:24 GMT

In article <JWA.92Sep3020651@vipunen.hut.fi> jwa@vipunen.hut.fi (Jyrki J Wahlstedt) writes:
>In article <1992Sep2.180017.15220@spang.Camosun.BC.CA> dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker) writes:
>
>>It depends what you mean by 'second rate'. I, for instance, consider
>>R. Strauss a second rate composer (as he did himself).
>
>  This is off the point (Korngold), but couldn't resist: I think that a
>  second rate composer (was he serious? I have not seen this statement in
>  its context) could possibly have written music like Metamorphosen.

I believe the exact remark was (paraphrased) "I am a first-class
second rate composer" (or it could have been first-rate second-class).
I cannot remember where I read this though, can anyone else
confirm/deny this?

I will grant you that Metamorphosen is a great work, but does that
mean we have to categorise (should we wish to) any composer who
produces a single great work as a first-class composer?

>  Just came to my mind that Mahler composed only on vacations. Can he
>  then be first rate composer?

Why not? I am reminded of Simon Rattle's comment (in a Guardian
interview) shortly after conducting the Berlin Philharmonic for the
first time, in a performance of Mahler's Sixth: "you know there are
*still* members of the orchestra who believe that Strauss was a better
composer than Mahler!"

My sentiments exactly.

Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept., Camosun College, Victoria B.C.
From: mmf@evolving.com (Mark Frazier)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Beethoven - overvalued?
Date: 28 Aug 92 19:04:52 GMT
Organization: Evolving Systems, Inc.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

jwa@vipunen.hut.fi (Jyrki J Wahlstedt) writes:
: In article <1992Aug25.044827.9106@usage.csd.unsw.OZ.AU> markc@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU () writes:
: >No, No, I was right the first time. Beethoven comes first, then Mozart, then
: >Bach in fifth spot. After all, Mozart is in fourth.
: >>> email: vanloon@cwi.nl  Not knowing Bach = not really living
: >				       ^^^^
: >another careless mistake. This should be Beethoven.
: 
:   Everybody has his own favourite to be the greatest composer of all. You
:   are really stupid, if you insist on Beethoven like that! 
:   Especially as I have Bach in the first place and after him I don't care...

If left to their own, the angels play Mozart.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: chem91@Rosie.UH.EDU ("Bill Harrison (713)-743-2789")
Subject: Re: Shostakovich's musical joke
Reply-To: chem91@Rosie.UH.EDU
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 22:13:10 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.210718.23583@Princeton.EDU>, mikulska@bessel.Princeton.EDU (Margaret Mikulska) writes:
>In article <chomicki.714861404@antares.cis.ksu.edu.cis.ksu.edu> chomicki@cis.ksu.edu (Jan Chomicki) writes:
>>
>>Apparently, Shostakovich set an example of Soviet stalinist music
>>criticism (dumping on degenerate Western music etc.) to some
>>deliberately crude but "politically correct" music. The resulting
>>piece is supposed to be hilarious.
>>
>>Does anyone know its name and the available recordings?
>
>The piece is "Rayok" (spelled /r-a-yo-k/, that is, with the Russian
>single character for 'yo') or "Learner's Manual".  (The title means 
>"gallery", as in a theatre.)  It's written for 4 bass voices, choir, 
>and piano - a "satirical cantata" in the form of a discussion, sort of,
>what kind of music _should_ be written and what kind is "degenerate" and
>to be avoided.
>
>There is a recording on ERATO, containing two versions of the piece: one
>sung in Russian, the other one, in English.  (The piece is rather short, 
>below 20 min., which gives you a less than 40 min. full-price CD.)
>
>Personally, I think this work is a bit heavy-handed.  I wouldn't call it
>"hilarious".  It does have its amusing moments, but on the whole, I was
>a bit disappointed.  The work was, of course, nor performed for many
>years, and not even mentioned - the text is too viciously satirical - so
>when it was finally possible to dig it out, some critics made a lot of
>noise about this "unknown work of Shostakovitch".  As a result, the
>expectations were high, but not really fulfilled.  It's worth listening
>to once or twice, but after that, the humor wears off soon.
>
>I would suggest listening to it in a library or borrowing the CD first,
>before you shell out a few $$$ - ERATO isn't among the cheapest - for a
>CD with basically less than 20 min. of music (both versions differ only
>in the language, and if you understand Russian, you don't even want to
>listen to it in English).
>
>-Margaret
>mikulska@astro.princeton.edu
>
------------------------------------------
Actually, I think it's even worse value than Margaret mentions. I seem
to recall each version (Russian and English) is about 16 minutes long 
or so, which takes us back to the bad old days of Beethoven 5 +nothing
on one CD etc...

The history and _humor_ of Rayok was extensively reviewed in *Tempo* 
magazine, and appeard about 2 years ago, or so.

Bill

+ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\               /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Bill Harrison,            \             /       "Be as radical as... |
| University of Houston, TX  >-----------<         reality itself"     |
| CHEM91@JETSON.BITNET      /             \                V. I. Lenin |
+ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/               \~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+