HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hartman@ulogic.UUCP (Richard M. Hartman)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Mistake?
Date: 5 Nov 92 19:36:42 GMT
Organization: negligable

In article <100442@bu.edu> khalid@bu-bio.bu.edu (Rasheed A. Khalid) writes:
>
>In a recent post, Basalat Raja who seems to be a moderator of
>soc.religion.islam mistransliterated a word from the Holy Quran,
>and I think it my obligation to clarify it before it begins to
>create misunderstandings.  The word in the Holy Quran is "Khatam"

The only misunderstanding you should clarify is:

	WHAT THE HECK IS THIS DOING IN NEWS.GROUPS!?!?!??!?!!?????


		-Richard Hartman
		hartman@uLogic.COM

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Ideas are not responsible for the people who believe them."

Xref: sparky news.groups:20333 news.admin.policy:147 rec.music.synth:17769
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: A question, a comment
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 05:20:45 GMT

irilyth@fenris.claremont.edu (Josh Smith) writes:

>Question: Who, specifically, does the renaming of rec.music.synth harm, and
>how? I'm looking for specifics about this particular renaming, not general
>comments about "disempowerment". 

It harmed the users of the group by causing people to drop out. 

>Will sites drop the group because of the name change? 

Sites will have done so when the gateway to SYNTH-L drops.

>Various people have suggested various dire outcomes, and been refuted in
>various ways; I'd like to see someone (Dave Hayes?) post a reasonably
>concise summary of WHY this renaming was a bad thing.

To answer that I'll ask everyone why this renaming was a good thing?
The group has been in operation for years...why change it now?

Concise results of the change:

1) Less membership.
2) Less distribution.
3) A flamewar.
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

          To the ignorant, a pearl seems a mere stone.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dkl@xcluud.sccsi.com (David Leikam)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.shakespeare
Organization: Greater Montrose UFO Appreciation Society & Data Haven
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 00:16:10 GMT

In article <Bx72Dt.J1o@uunet.uu.net> lidz@midway.uchicago.edu (adam lidz) writes:
>I would like to propose the following group for discussion, and hopefully
>creation:
>rec.arts.shakespeare
>

  Hmmm. What would you say in such a group that can't already be said in
rec.arts.books?  The RABble are as interested in the Bard as in anyone
else. I grant  you the volume can be pretty overwhelming, but anyone with
any new topic tends to get all of the discussion he/she can handle in
followups.

  I have not noticed a great deal of discussion of Shakespeare in RAB, so
I wonder whether there's enough interest to warrant a new group? I sure
haven't seen evidence of it.
 
  If there WERE such a group, I'd almost certainly read it, though. Only
questioning why it can't be done (as it sometimes is) in RAB.


-- 
dkl@xcluud.sccsi.com | My company doesn't know Usenet exists, and my boss
and other places,    | would have kittens if he thought I spoke for them.
even more unsavory.  | My opinions are better than theirs anyway.
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 01:07:59 GMT

pwh@bradley.bradley.edu (Pete Hartman) writes:
>Do you have any idea how many people you are alienating by harping
>on this as if USENET's sole responsibility is distributing MIDI
>articles to a BBS net?

About as many people as were alienated by the announcing of the name change. 

>I can see that there was a misunderstanding.  We should adjust for it
>in the future.

Agreed. 

>But as others have pointed out, if you were so concerned about this
>"problem", you had plenty of time to address it while the CFV was
>going on, as you did vote.

So what? Just because I didn't complain at the appropriate time, does that
make the complaint invalid? That is the stupidest methodology for progress
I've ever heard in my life. 

My concern about this problem developed after the vote passed and when
people were dropping away from r.m.s like flies. I'm sick of people being
alienated by elitist news admins...and I'm gonna do what I can do about it.
If that means screaming and yelling at this point...so be it. 

Of course, rational discourse is always welcome. 
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

Be wary of strong drink.  It can make you shoot at tax collectors and miss
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Group splits, killfiles...
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 19:38:37 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to lmollett@lunatix.uucp (Laura Mollett):
>I simply cannot afford the time to read through ... news.announce.newgroups
>on a continual basis.

I'm sorry, but I just don't buy it.  There isn't that much traffic in
n.a.newgroups.

>I think it's important that the subject lines on RFD be as clear as possible
>so that all those who _might_ be interested but have limited time have as
>much chance to participate as possible.

Of course.  Clarity in subject lines is a Mom-and-apple-pie issue;
everyone is in favor.
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
                 just another elitist Usenet administrator
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Subject: Re: About the elitism in news.groups
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 16:33:53 GMT

In article <1dsba6INNq1b@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU> randall-joshua@yale.edu  
(Joshua Randall) writes:
> In article <1992Nov11.081205.5985@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>  
dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
> [quoting someone from r.m.m]
> 
> >> [...]It's disappointing to hear that
> >>people who evidently know more consider themselves superior instead of
> >>consider themselves as a resource for those who could learn from them.
> >
> >That last sentence sums it up pretty well. Comments?
> 
> I don't feel bad at all.  I do feel superior.  I went to the trouble
> to read the posts in news.answers and news.admin, and to read
> news.groups for long enough to figure out what is going on.

So then you ARE superior to someone that hasn't "read... for long enough  
to figure out what is going on". You would have seen the post. The people  
that you are superior to at this point, wouldn't have seen it as easily.


> I don't
> jump into groups and start asking questions, I read them for at least
> a month to see if there is a FAQ or something like one.  And I check
> pit-maganer.mit.edu for possible info.
> 
> If everyone would do as I do, the net would run much more smoothly.
> 

Agreed - but people would miss votes that affect them. They shouldn't have  
to go through a period of unknown length before they can be considered to  
be valid members of the community.

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------
From: hartman@ulogic.UUCP (Richard M. Hartman)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.frp.campaign
Date: 13 Nov 92 17:47:44 GMT
Organization: negligable

In article <BxI9ow.146@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca writes:
>First of all, no one else has come forward volunteering to moderate the
>newsgroup.  I am not apposed to anyone else applying for the position.

Point of order: no one else has come forward volunteering because no one
else even thinks this group should be created.  Do you think that might
have something to do with the lack of applicants for the job?


=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
It's not the way that you say it	|
when you do those things to me,		|	-Richard Hartman	
it's more the way you really mean it	|	hartman@uLogic.COM
when you tell me what will be.		|
Newsgroups: uk.net,news.groups,soc.culture.british
From: dj@ekcolor.ssd.kodak.com (Dave Jones)
Subject: Re: RFD: Should UK groups be sent to UUnet?
Organization: Vonnegut Tent Rentals, Inc.
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 15:13:40 GMT

The inevitable result of broadcasting the "uk" groups worldwide would be the
appearance of new groups that would not be broadcast.  There's surely a need
for discussion areas with limited geographical scope.  Eunet is indeed
broadcast (our site junks it, but that's another consideration) but the real
question should be "Now that eunet is broadcast, what is the state of
newsgroups in Europe?".  So you look, and maybe you find a whole hierarchy 
that has appeared to take traffic from people who don't want input from the
rest of the world.  Fine.  More power to them.

Stick to the status quo.  Remember, Yadallee awaits those who broadcast
rashly!
 
--
||I dreamed I met a Yadallean          |(parody in progress, apologies to
||A most confusing man....             | Tim Rice & Andrew Lloyd Webber)
||------------------------------------------------------------------------
||Dave Jones (dj@ekcolor.ssd.kodak.com)|Eastman Kodak Co. Rochester, NY  |
From: escmar@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg (Mar Siew Cheong)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: RFD: soc.culture.singaporean
Keywords: Singapore, cultural, newsgroup
Date: 6 Nov 92 02:24:07 GMT
Organization: nanyang technological university
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

Proposed Newsgroup's Name
=========================
  soc.culture.singaporean

Type
====
  Unmoderated

Charter
=======
  A newsgroup where topics relevant to the development of Singapore, in
  the areas of science, technology, education and culture can be 
  discussed.

Purpose of the Group 
====================
  *  Discuss topics relevant to the development of Singapore.
  *  Provide an avenue where general information about Singapore
     can be obtained.

Newsgroup Creation
==================
  The discussion for this group will last from Monday, Nov. 9, 1992
  until Friday, Dec. 4, 1992. The discussion should take place in 
  news.groups. All followups should be under this same title heading.

  I am now inviting all netters in general and Singaporean netters in
  particular to take part in the discussion. Any suggestions, comments
  or problems may be included in the discussion or sent directly to
  escmar@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg

  At the end of the Discussion Period, voting will be held. The rules on
  how to vote will be posted here as well.

Thanks for your attention,
-----
Mar Siew Cheong (staff)		Bitnet: escmar@ntuvax.ntu.ac.sg
Division of Instr. & Control	Internet: escmar@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg 
Nanyang Technological Univ. 	Tel. (off.): (065) 799-5635
Nanyang Avenue S2263
Singapore  
-- 
+---------------------------------------+------------------------+
| Mar Siew Cheong, Sch. of EEE,         | All standard/non-std.  |
| Nanyang Tech. University, S(2263)     | disclaimers apply.     |
| Internet Email:escmar@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg | Unless otherwise       |
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 21:48:14 GMT

In article <1992Nov6.092146.20596@cs.hut.fi> killer@robin.cs.hut.fi (Kalle  
Kivimaa) writes:
> In <1992Nov6.000935.2031@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave  
Hayes) writes:
> 
> >The subject lines said "CFV: rec.music.makers.* groups". There was no 
> >indication of any correlation with the rec.music.synth groups. At the  
very
> >least, a revote should be held with this one subject separate from the  
rest
> >of the votes, with a clear and precise subject line so that ALL people
> >in rec.music.synth are made aware of this. 
> 
> Let's see where that would lead:
> 
> Some assumptions:
> 1) The vote was held according to guidelines
> 2) Some r.m.s readers didn't pay attention to CFV
> 
> If we now hold a re-vote, we have a precedent that a vote held according
> to guidelines is not neccesarily valid.  This implies:
> 
> 1) Change the guidelines
> 2) Toss the guidelines and let Usenet become Altnet
> 
> If we change the guidelines, we still have the precedent AND the fact
> that if some readers in an affected group do not pay attention to CFV's
> (or whatever they will be called) the vote is invalid.
> 
> This would create an endless loop where a couple of people can force the  
rest
> of the net to do things their way.
> 

It's not clear it would lead to this at all. The change doesn't have to be  
"People can have a re-vote whenever they like". It could be "Subject lines  
must clearly indicate affected current newsgroups".

Is that such a bad thing? Or is "government by concealment (intentional or  
otherwise) and elitism" something you would like to see continue?

Gordon

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: tuc@calico.cs.wisc.edu (Brian A. Cole)
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.lang.dylan  [create this group]
Organization: U of Wisconsin Madison - Computer Sciences
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 16:22:13 GMT

meehan@src.dec.com (Jim Meehan) writes:
] REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION
] ----------------------
] NAME:
] 	comp.lang.dylan
] STATUS:
] 	unmoderated

I think this newsgroup needs to exist.

Nothing substantial in this post, sorry, but I didn't want people to think
there was no support.  I remember way back when there was a group that died
in the RFD stage because of a false assumption of no interest.

brian
-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~     _______    _____     ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Brian A. Cole                 |_   _  |  |  ___|    Most people think disc golf
  tuc@cs.wisc.edu               | | | |__| |___     is a joke.    It is not.
  ...!uwvax!cs.wisc.edu!tuc     |_| |__________|    That gives us the element
                                                    of surprise.
From: dseal@armltd.co.uk (David Seal)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.frp.campaign
Date: 6 Nov 92 12:46:15 GMT
Distribution: news
Organization: A.R.M. Ltd, Swaffham Bulbeck, Cambs, UK

In article <1da04lINN2a1@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU> randall-joshua@yale.edu
(Joshua Randall) writes:

>I intend to vote no to this group, and I intend to stuff the ballot box
>if I get the chance.

Don't! This is an excellent way to ensure that your vote against doesn't get
counted...

David Seal
dseal@armltd.co.uk

All opinions are mine only...
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Oregon State University, College of Oceanography
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 21:09:53 GMT

In article <1992Nov8.221655.5211@metrosoft.com> gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:
>It's funny that the subject line on its own requires that someone already  
>be familiar with the proposal to understand its meaning.

It takes no reading past the three letters "CFV" to know what the
posting is about. The fact that the posting was made in a group means
that is somehow applies to that group. You need know nothing else to
know that THAT posting in particular should be read, IF you are
interested in the newsgroup process.

>You don't think hundreds of messages per day that contain acronyms like  
>'RFD' and 'CFV' cause your eyes to glaze over? Take a refresher course in  

Rec.music.synth received hundreds of messages per day with the acronym
"CFV" in it?
From: sloane@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (Bob Sloane)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 12 Nov 92 11:00:32 CST
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

In <97054@netnews.upenn.edu>, rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec) writes:
> Someone has already stepped forward to handle the gatewaying
> to the SYNTH-L mailing list, and has provided a pointer to another
> person who may also be able to easily handle the job.  It would seem
> reasonable, given this, that the link between (whatever).synth
> and SYNTH-L can and will easily be maintained.

According to Jim McIntosh at auvm, Joe McMahon (the listowner of
SYNTH-L) has requested that the gateway between rec.music.synth and
his list be terminated. I would not be willing to gateway the list
without the permission of the list owner.
-- 
USmail: Bob Sloane, University of Kansas Computer Center, Lawrence, KS, 66045
E-mail: sloane@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu, sloane@ukanvax.bitnet, AT&T: (913)864-0444
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Give up, Dave, you've lost!
Date: 12 Nov 1992 15:23:29 GMT
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

In article <1992Nov12.142526.25047@watson.ibm.com> strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom) writes:
>At this point I don't care what the group is called.
>I want there to be one group with all the synth discussion.
>So can somebody please build it and merge the articles
>so that we can be back online again?

That's exactly what I want. All it takes is for Dave Hayes to quit being an
obstructionist. 
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by stupidity.
     We survived Jimmy Carter; we'll (probably) survive Bill Clinton.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: rorschak@daimi.aau.dk (Jesper Lauridsen)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Xanth Watch
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 21:41:56 GMT

gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:

>You think all votes for all groups on the net are to be interested in? How  
>much time DO you have on your hands?

You only have to read those that pops up in the groups you are reading.
I have no problems with that, in fact I have so much spare proposal time 
(it's reallly rare that I see RFDs or CFVs in my favourite groups) that
I have subscribed to news.announce.newgroups.



-- 
Jesper Lauridsen        |  I survived the rec.arts.sf-lovers split
rorschak@daimi.aau.dk   | 
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.config
From: jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mr. Furr)
Subject: Re: Dave Hayes will not quit
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 01:12:54 GMT

In article <BxKABu.6ow@unix.amherst.edu> twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) writes:
>In article <BxIL8z.K0s@unix.amherst.edu> ljnelson@unix.amherst.edu (Laird Nelson) writes:
>
>>Which is why maybe if we ignore him and his claim to a position he'll go
>>away.  Followups haven't yet--but should be--directed to
>>alt.dave.hayes.champion.of.the.little.man
>>alt.dave.hayes.legend.in.his.own.mind
>
>Actually, I'm intrigued by the prospect of alt.fan.dave-hayes.

Tim, how about we just find Dave Hayes and use the immense resources of
the net to make his life a living hell?

Or maybe we could just go beat him up?

>
>-- 
>____ Tim Pierce                / 
>\  / twpierce@unix.amherst.edu / I use antlers in all of my decorating.
> \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) /
From: randall-joshua@yale.edu (Joshua Randall)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.frp.campaign
Date: 11 Nov 1992 20:50:21 -0500
Organization: Yale University Science & Engineering UNIX(tm), New Haven, CT 06520-2158
NNTP-Posting-Host: minerva.cis.yale.edu

In article <BxKtJC.F46@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca () writes:

[much stuff deleted]

>He was complaining about me changing my charter, I was sarcastic in reply.
>Please provide evidence, from the actual latest proposal and not some 
>month old antique, examples of "paradox" in my proposal.
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Sigh.  Bruce, do you realize that something that is a month old is
hardly an antique?  You obviously have no concept of time.  The
suggestions on creating a new group ask that you wait six whole months
(gasps from the audience) before bringing up an RFD.

You yourself admitted that you have read r.g.f.* for only two months.
Ergo, you still have four months to go.

-- 
Joshua E. Randall                       randall@minerva.cis.yale.edu
From: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: CFV? What's a CFV??
Date: 14 Nov 92 02:49:57 GMT
Organization: GSP Whitewater Slalom Racing Team

In article <1992Nov14.022723.2545@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec) writes:
>>I think "important" is an entirely relative term: but, for example,
>>I consider the documents in news.announce.newusers of critical
>>importance to every Usenet user.  
>
>Have you asked a random usenet user what they think is of critical
>importance? Is it possible that they might not have the same view?

Two answers first: Yes, and yes.

Many Usenet users do not share this view [the one I articulated above],
which is perfectly fine, and they are certainly entitled to their
own sentiments.

However, there are also consequences which ensue from holding
*that* point of view, and Usenet users who adhere to it must also
be prepared to deal with those consequences.  One's opinion
that something is unimportant does not necessarily make it so.

---Rsk
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: rached@blanc.eng.ohio-state.edu (rached)
Subject: Voting on the Ahmadiyya Newgroup
Organization: The Ohio State University Dept of Electrical Engineering
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1992 02:47:50 GMT

Hi

I am completely confused. This morning I read about the CFV for SRIA and
sent my vote to the specified address. Then now I read that the votes
should be sent to somwhere else. I think this is a very bad way to
conduct a voting and therefore I move to call for an annulation of both
votes and a postponment to the voting period to a time where it is
clear where the votes must go and how the voting should be done.

rached
From: jaapjl@tab00.larc.nasa.gov (J Lee Jaap)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: Should rec.music.makers.synth stand as a group name?
Date: 12 Nov 1992 23:50:23 GMT
Organization: AS&M Inc
Reply-To: J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@larc.nasa.gov>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cmb00.larc.nasa.gov
In-reply-to: Dave Hayes's message of Tue, 10 Nov 1992 17:53:15 GMT

In article <BxIHor.Es@uunet.uu.net> Dave Hayes <dave@elxr.jpl.Nasa.Gov> writes:

   This is a request for discussion on letting rec.music.makers.synth stand
   as a replacement for rec.music.synth. 

Of course.  The vote passed.  Technically.  The only objective way
we have of deciding whether a vote passes.

(I sure hate to respond to whining such as this, because it gives the
whine some stature.)

OTOH, I can accept a campaign for changing the Guidelines, although I
don't agree that it's necessary.  But precedent does not support
a revote because somebody didn't like the results and refuses to
implement on his system the result of the vote.  And started
crossposting a lot of stuff to r.m.s which apparently drove off a
gateway maintainer and a few readers.

And I can accept an RFD/CFV in six months for renaming it back
(not that the current Guidelines require it, but IMO the six-month
wait should apply to any change to a group).
--
J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@LaRC.NASA.Gov> +1 804/864-2148
    employed by, not speaking for, AS&M Inc, at
         NASA LaRC, Hampton VA 23681-0001
Newsgroups: news.groups