From: malcolm@wrs.com (Malcolm Humes)
Subject: Re: Biofeedback for meditation training...
Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc.
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 20:19:33 GMT

farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Lorenzo Farris) writes:
>:|:>Using entrainment devices can force the brain into
>:|:>the traditional meditative patterns, but they don't help you
>:|:>into learning how to mediate without these machines.  

>In my experience, they don't even teach you to meditate. Maybe they
>put you in a relaxed state of mind, but that's it.

I know this is probably pushing it, but could someone please explain what
is a "relaxed state of mind" vs. "meditation"?  I know meditation and relaxed
aren't synonymous, but just what is it that is acheived in meditation? I've
talked to buddhists a bit about this. I've been to a "mystery school" loosely
patterned after tibetan schools. So I'm not totally naive in these areas, but
I am curious how various folks would define the differences between being
relaxed, meditation, and the state induced by entrainment.  

>:|:people suggest that once you reach a certain state of mind it's easier to 
>:|:reach it again, even if getting there through different means.

>Only in the sense of knowing what it is you're shooting for. 

What are we shooting for, anyway? If I could figure that out maybe I could
get "there". :^) 
 
>The problem I find with this is the assumption that a set of squiggles
>on a sheet of paper really tells you anything about one's state of
>consciousness. Alpha dominated EEG's doesn't necessarily imply a
>meditative state. It could very well mean you have been staring at the
>white lines on the highway a little too long.

Aw, shit. Can we define consciousness too? I've been reading this group
for at least a month and have seen no charter or FAQ. This to me seems to
be part of the meat of where I'm poking my stick; prodding for a response
to better define what we're talking about or what we're supposed to be 
talking about. 

Conscious: 1) aware of one's existence, feelings and thought.  2) in a waking, 
not comatose, state. 3) aware.  4) intentional. 

Hmmm - I thought zen buddhist meditation was just about the opposite of 
consciousness as defined in my little new american Webster handy college
dictionary.  

>Alpha dominated EEG's doesn't necessarily imply a
>meditative state. It could very well mean you have been staring at the
>white lines on the highway a little too long.
 
Damn, and I thought driving long distance was a form of meditation. You're 
suggesting it isn't. Why not? :^) I buy the basic point, that just because 
a bunch of people meditating are at  a certain brain frequency doesn't mean
that inducing that frequency will create a meditative state. But I don't
see anything to convince me that it might not work either. And I love that
trance-like state induced by long drives, whether it's meditative or not.    

>If the goal is relaxation, and you find an entrainment device works
>for you, then why not just buy a cheap one, and forget about learning
>meditation? Meditation generally requires daily effort, and this is
>something that tends to be counterpoised to the mindset that wants a
>machine to do it for them. 
>Don't get me wrong, I like to play with these toys, too. If I could
>hook myself up to electrodes and go into samadhi, well, what a
>wonderful world it would be! 

My original idea in buying an entrainment device was in fact to help me
get regular in meditation, not so much in wanting the machine to do all the
work for me. I figured that the device could help me screen out distractions
and get me into a regular discipline of sitting and emptying my mind. I 
thought that if the machine helped me get into pattern of daily meditation
sessions that it would be easy to do it without the machine once I got
into a regular cycle. But it hasn't really worked that way, and my conclusion
is that my failure to get regular in meditation is more caused by my lack
of discipline and my resistance to any sort of new routines in my daily
life, not because the mind machine doesn't do what it claims to. Your comments
bring me back to wondering what it is I want or seek in meditation anyway, 
which is why I've rambled on and asked questions that may seem sort of 
obvious or indulgent.  

>But I think the unsubstantiated claims
>far outstrip anything these machines can actually do.

I agree regarding the unsubstaniated claims. As I mentioned before the
Tools For Exploration catalog has some incredible (or hardly credible)
items that are claiming to work miracles. Need a $4000 chair to slowly
move you like you're on water with gentle waves? Need a set of 7 different
colored glasses for $79.95 so you can try some "color therapy" to change
your life and perception of the world around you? These guys will probably 
help speed up government intervention by the FDA in banning entrainment
devices and other products TFE carries because of some of the absurd claims 
they make about some of these products. 

But is entrainment bullshit? Can anyone prove it doesn't work? 

  - malcolm@wrs.com