From: dv52151@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (RedSwordTarga)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Vampire and GURPS
Keywords: Vampire, GURPS, stereotypes
Date: 18 Nov 92 04:37:51 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.BxwA75.JKL
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

jasmine@sscux1.ssc.gov (Karissa Walden) writes:

>In article <BxtzFz.DCx@news.cso.uiuc.edu> dv52151@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (RedSwordTarga) writes:
>>durrant@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (unknown) writes:
>>system gets insulted. Let's be real. Vampire, in terms of game mechanics,
>>is ill-designed, with a disfunctional combat system, statistics that
>>can only be adjusted in gross amounts, and a character generation sytem
>>that enforces the game companie's view of vampire behavior with no
>>allowance for individual vision, unless you totally redesign the 
>>game using a system that works.  


>one thing that gets mentioned over and over is the bad game mechanics.  Yet,
>I have never seen any examples.  Can someone please support this claim?  Nowm
>I will admit I have never played GURPS but I have played Vampire and had no
>problems with it.  So, what is this major error in game mechanics that I am
>missing?

I think I mentioned most of them. Let's run over them again though.

1) The combat system, even the advanced Storyteller one included in
Werewolf and some supplement or other for V:TM, is horrible. It is
the only combat system on the market that's worse than SR. The 
better you get in Vampire, the more likely you are to make a horrible
blunder (I won't drag out the mathematic forumlae for this, but rest
assured, they've been gone over before.) The damage system is just
as bad.  Gross scale for damage, making SR look reasonable.

2) The statistics are only adjustable in gross steps. The difference
between a stat or skill at 3 and 4 is enormous. This, of course,
relates up to 1) A Horrible Combat system. This, I suppose, we could
call a Horrible Skill system.

3) An experience system that adds abilities in vast quantities. The
effect of adding 1 or 2 points to a character in Vampire is enormous
when compared to a system such as GURPS or HERO. 

4) Character creation is limited to the game creators vision of 
Vampires (and even more so in Werewolf). The stereotypes are very
much in place.  While some may argue that many fantasy games
do the same thing, those systems that do their best to function
in all genres (and do a passable if not excellent job - GURPS, HERO)
have no such built in stereotypes. 
	Yes, there are stereotypes that can be created in these
games. However, it is far more difficult to create a non-standard
character in Vampire than to create one in GURPS or HERO. Neither
system comes with built-in stereotypes, the GM and players have
to add them.  In Vampire, we have the game designers vision of vampires
built into the system. For instance, a non-clan aligned character
is forced to buy his powers at a far more expensive rate than those
clan aligned characters who purchase clan powers. A human character
is created on a substantially smaller number of points. In GURPS
or HERO, all characters are given an equal number of points to
build with, and advancement can be done equitably no matter what
you are.


None of the arguments invalidate V:TM as a RPG. It's fine for people
who don't mind these flaws. It's rather obvious that the folks at
White Wolf are long on background, and that's great for those persons
who are not that concerned with mechanics. Long time roleplayers tend
to gripe about these things simply because after a while, using someone
else's imagination and ideas runs out of steam. You then have to carry
the campaign on with your own personal ideas and imagination. Most of
us don't like trying to do that while saddled with a defective system.

Axly


********************************************************************************
*   Axly      *  "Is Axly tough? Yes. Talented? Yes. Brave? Oh, certainly.     *
* Red Sword   *   He is also erratic, irresponsible, accident-prone, and a     *
*   Targa     *   constant threat to public safety. The trick is to keep him   *
*             *   pointed in the right direction. "                            *
*             *         -Niki                                                  *
********************************************************************************