From: FA.TJM@forsythe.stanford.edu (thom mckean)
Subject: Re: Sexism, flaming, etc.
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 18:18:49 GMT

In article <1992Apr10.071031.16618@csn.org>,
et@teal.csn.org (Eric H. Taylor) writes:
>
>Ok all you bozos and bimbos out there. It seems like a good time
>for some serious flaming here.

Ten to one it's a good time for a GUINNESS!!! (I couldn't resist...I
had a few well-drawn pints of the life-giving brew yesterday, and my
outlook on life today is positively peachy.  It's not the Prozac,
that's fer damn sure...)

>Really now, I'm here to say a little bit about this thing a lot
>of you have about blaming the opposite sex for this that and the
>other thing. Take a look at some of the stuff out there. How much
>of it is "men this" or "women that" kind of speaking?
>
>So many of you people are blantantly baised. The amount of vehmenance
>that is to your stereotypes I find appalling.

Now, hold it right there, pardner.  How much "blaming" actually goes
on in this newsgroup?  I'd say very little.  Is it just me?  I've
noticed very little sexual stereotyping (on a serious level) here.
For instance, the whole discussion on "wooing away an involved
person," which has potential to degrade into gender generalizations,
has avoided doing so.

Can you please cite some recent examples of your point?

>THINK ABOUT IT FOR A SECOND. MOST ANY STATEMENT THAT SAYS SOMETHING
>LIKE "GUYS ARE..." OR "GIRLS ARE..." CAN BE SUBSTITUTED WITH "PEOPLE
>ARE...". AND THE AMOUNT OF REALITY WONT BE ANY LESS. What will be lost
>is some of the flamingly antagonistic responses such conversation
>can engender. Not to mention the insulting and degrading some of
>it leads to (or implies in the mind of the listener).
>
>Think about it. Men like to play hard to get as much as women do.
>Men like to dress up and so do women. Cultural stereotypes define
>much of the role-playing that we live by, and sweeping generalizations
>can be easily made based on such. Really now, people; outside of
>a set of basic biologically based differences, and culturally imposed
>"norms" there really isn't any difference between the sexes.

Outside of biologically and societially based factors, there really
aren't any differences between the sexes.  I'll agree with this;
however, it's much like saying outside of money, there's really no
difference between the rich and the poor.

Biological differences account for a large difference in not just
the physical makeup of men and women, but also contributes to a
psychological difference between men and women, and this is a
difference which CANNOT be overcome.  Women have the ability to
conceive and give birth; they are reminded of this ability on a
monthly basis between menarche and menopause.  The full effects
this ability has on the psychological makeup of a woman can only be
guessed at, and, I would hold, can never be understood adequately by
a man.

Societal differences (which stem from the biological differences)
also account for large differences.  Sexually speaking, I would
argue women are objectified to a greater degree than men.  The
ideas so pervade society as to be almost unnoticeable, for it is
only by stepping out of society that we can see it objectively (or,
as McLuhan argues, that we can see it AT ALL).  While people can
rise above the impositions and roles placed on them by their
culture, this happens infrequently.

Ideally, everyone should be able to rise above the societal
differences; realistically, most people don't.  And, funnily enough,
they survive!

>Women deserve the same rights and priveledges that men do.
>Men deserve the same rights and priveledges that women do.
>People deserve the same rights and priveledges that other people do.

Agreed.  Individual self-determination should be a priority for the
human race.  However, being EQUAL and being the SAME are two totally
different things.  I'm all for equality; I'm totally against severe
conformity.  I don't think large scale androgyny would be any fun.

>Do you see what I mean? Is there any enlightenment out there?
>Which of the three statements I just made is the most powerful?
>
I see what you mean.  Thank you for enlightening me, Great God Eric.
I didn't see the light until you and Buddha showed me the true
nature.
(sorry about the sarcasm.  I couldn't resist.)

I find it funny that it's always men who insist there's no
difference between the genders/whites who insist there's no
difference between the races/the majority who insists there's no
differences between them and the minority.  Go figure.

Thom
fa.tjm@forsythe.stanford.edu
Stanford University Center for the Study of Penmanship and Spelling
Newsgroups: soc.singles