From: krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: words
Date: 21 Aug 92 00:32:07 GMT
Organization: The Meltdown - A Team Star BBS

In article <2A8EEB08.15973@orion.oac.uci.edu>, cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis
Maria Cortese) writes:
>In article <1992Aug16.213259.471@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> radzy@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU
(
>T. O. Radzykewycz) writes:
>>liam@brewich.hou.tx.us (Liam) writes:
>>> ... yet we still fail to see that the only way to change the
>>> world is to change ourselves from within.( I must include myself
>>> in this collective "we")  So I sugest that we, all of us, change
>>> ourselves for the better and exhibit the qualities that we
>>> admire the most...in the face of intolerance be tolerant and
>>> when bashed don't return fire, because if we do, we also condemn
>>> ourselves. So as we sit behind these battlements forged of our
>>> own indignation, remember that to see our own worst enemy all we
>>> have to do is look in a mirror.

>>Great posting, Liam!
>>I agree wholeheartedly!
>>
>>One further thing we each (myself included) need to do is
>>to look at ourselves when others accuse us of something.  The
>>first step toward ridding ourselves of any traits we don't
>>want to have is to recognize that they exist.  So many people
>>(myself included FAR too often), when someone says they have a
>>problem, simply go into auto-defense mode and stop listening.

>Another further thing we need to do, as well, is to learn to
>differentiate when a) someone is complaining about a general societal
>injustice, and b) when we are personally being accused of something.
>There seems to be a lot of this going around, where someone (gee, like
>who?) will post drawing attention to a general injustice, and someone
>ELSE will automatically act as if they stand accused.  They will then
>proceed to explain why they do nothing of the sort.  Quite frankly, they
>may not (but I still wonder why they get so defensive if so), but that
>doesn't mean it doesn't happen.  I have a feeling that if you pinned
>down most men/hets/white people and asked them, "Do you oppress people?"
>they would say, "Of course not."  By extension, the oppression would not
>then exist -- but it does.

Nice logic, but with a flaw...  Understanding.  Yes, there is discrimination in
America, and being one of those M/H/W people, I would respond "No, but it does
occur, and although I try to stop it when it does."  Unfortunately many people
see the blanket statements made about society to include all members of the
mentioned group(s).  I'll even put myself there, conditionally.  Ya see, it
depends not only on how it's received, but the style of deliverance as well.  A
well thought out letter griping about general society problems will provoke
much less of a "You ain't bashin' me!" reaction than a multi-K rant typed out
at the top of someone's lungs...  It's a matter of UNDERSTANDING both sides.

>As radzy said, you won't surmount an obstacle in your path by pretending
>it doesn't exist.  You must acknowledge it and learn about it so that
>you can pull in down and move on.
>
>It is complicated, though, and I just got a dose of that myself this
>weekend.  (The gay/les/bi readers will probably hold their sides in
>laughter at this one.)  There is a two day Gay/Lesbian Pride Festival
>held in the park in the middle of my university every summer, and it's
>quite a neat thing; I never would have guessed that plaid-pants,
>Republican, traditionalfamilyvalues Irvine would permit such a thing,
>but it's nice to see something normal in this place every now and then.

Once again, understanding comes into play here.  The disqualifier you pput on
the above paragraph ([ONLY] gay/les/bi readers will...) only helps ailenate
people.  What about those of us, who are M/H/W's and are active in the local
gay community?  General statements and comments are fine, but be careful with
them!

>At any rate, I would hope most of you know already that I am a staunch
>supporter of gay/les/bi rights from my posts.  HOWEVER, I am no less apt
>to be surprised when I see two people of the same sex with their arms
>around each other than anyone else.  Why?
>
>I've heard from guys who take vacations in Europe who head first thing
>for the nude and topless beaches -- "Oooh, oooh, lookit the titties!"
>After about a week, they just don't care about them anymore.
>
>This is the same type of thing for me and I suspect a lot of other hets
>who support gay/les/bi rights.  In the mainstrean het society, you just
>don't see it that often; as a consequence it is a novelty when you DO.
>However, with continued exposure to it, the novelty will wear off and it
>will be accepted as nothing special.  When you cover up something and
>pretend it doesn't exist, seeing it can shock you right out of your
>drawers; let's face it, there isn't one person on this Earth who doesn't
>know that women have breasts.  Seeing them is nonetheless, shocking when
>they are covered up all the time.  Through exposure, though, acceptance
>soon settles in.

Damn streight.  (Pardon the blatent pun, I couldn't resist!)

>I am a member of a predominantly het society.  Regardless of my
>political stand on gay/les/bi rights, I do not EVER see two men 
>kissing romantically, or two women holding each other romantically
>(the shit "lesbian" garbage in porn doesn't count since that is for the
>edification of the reader anyway and hence I suspect nowhere NEAR actual
>lesbianism).  As a result, I also will be shocked out of my drawers to
>see it, and I don't like admitting that, either.  I'm bothered by it, by
>my inability to just accept this as normal.

I'm sorry to hear that.  Looks like it's time to give yourself some more
exposure, IMHO.  You'll be amazed at how easy it can be to find the local gay
community, and get rid of these prejiduces.  It just takes a stong will to
actually DO anything about it.  Desnetizing yourself may be the next step.

>However, in the society in which I am a part, it is NOT presented as
>normal; it isn't presented at all.
>
>The solution?  Dunno.  I am working to get over this; I know it's due to
>the fact that I'm just not exposed to it, just like American men on Euro
>beaches, and that with more exposure, I will accept it more easily, just
>like American men on Euro beaches.  The exposure, though, means that I
>am thrilled to see things like this Pride Festival, when I CAN be
>exposed to it; I NEED to be exposed to it.  By "acting up," as the
>saying goes, gay/les/bi people are doing the het world the biggest favor
>they can, though most hets would rather get their nails pulled out than
>admit it.  I'm angry that acting up usually entails things like . . . oh
>. . . risking your *life*, but please, for any gay/les/bi readers,
>CONTINUE ACTING UP.  Keep presenting these new images.  And please see
>that even hets such as myself, who are solid supporters, will at first
>be surprised to see you openly.
>
>As far as possible when your life is not endangered, ACT UP.  We need to
>see you.  When something is covered up (from breasts to sexual
>preferences), you can pretend it doesn't exist.
>
>I'm not sure why I posted this -- radzy's post just seems to have
>triggered it.  Talking about oppression means not pretending it doesn't
>exist.  ACT THE FUCK UP.  We need to see you badly.

A comment... Don't Act Up just for the sake of Acting up!  That just causes
more problems in the long run.  It would take a nationwide "comming out of the
closet" to really have an effect.  And groups like "ACT UP" which try to force
people out of the closet a actually HARMING peoples LIVES in the process.  Yes,
the person comes out of the closet, and it may help the big picture, but at
what cost?  The loss of job, friends, family...  No thanks.  This is why I
selectively stay IN the broom closet.  I don't need to be fired from another
job, or have another female companion forcibly seperated from me...

Krikket               ! krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us ! USnail:3 Danada Square E.
a.k.a Doug Krick      ! Team Star Charter Member   !        Suite 246
Data ph# 708/665-9732 ! #include<std.disclaimers>  !        Wheaton, Il 60187
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  Just another commentary on the sad state of affairs on our nation today.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan