HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: CKRUPP@UVMVM.BITNET (Christina Krupp)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: weaving books
Date: 27 Aug 92 21:08:27 GMT
Organization: The Internet

Greetings! A good source for information on early-period fabrics is:
Wild, John Peter: Textiles in Archaeology, published in 1988 by Shire
Publications in Britain. ISBN is: 0-85263-931-7. It's a skinny paperback
(costs 3.50 British Pounds). To get your own copy, write: Shire Publica-
tions Ltd., Cromwell House, Church Street, Princes Risborough, Aylesbury,
Bucks., HP17 9AJ, U.K. Here you will find simply written and clearly
illustrated explanations of: fiber types, looms, weaves, and dyes; as
well as information about how various things survive through time. Al-
though this is a British publication, many US libraries have it, so it
should be easily available via Interlibrary Loan. The bibliography is
excellent, if you want to pursue the topic further. Good luck!

Countess Marieke van de Dal           Christina Krupp
Province of Mountain Freehold, E.K.   CKRUPP@UVMVM.BITNET
From: zebee@ucs.adelaide.edu.au (Zebee Johnstone)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: consort gender
Date: 3 Sep 92 01:11:42 GMT
Organization: Information Technology Division, The University of Adelaide, AUSTRALIA

Arval wrote:

>The requirement for a mixed sex ruling couple is simply a reflection of our
>focus on the ideals of courtly love: An chivalrous warrior fights for the
>glory of his lady/her lord.  One's lady or lord is one's inspiration;
>sleeping arrangements have nothing whatsoever to do with the matter and are
>nobody's business but your own.  It is a social convention, based on the
>social conventions of the period we re-create.

I always wondered what to do about the "inspiration" problem.  I'm not
in a "relationship" same sx or otherwise, so if I wanted to compete
in Coronet, what do I do to avoid doing violence to this concept - a concept
I enjoy *because* it is so high medieval?
  

I don't want to just wander up to someone and say "Hey, can I fight
for you in Coronet".  If I win the damn thing I want to be able to 
crown the person who *inspired* me to win, the person I really 
*wanted* to put on the throne.

I finally figured to look at it like that - who do I think would make a good
ruler?  Who would I enjoy seeing on the throne, who does good theatre,
who has all the qualities of good royalty?

Not that it is likely at the current stage of development :-)

Selfran, who has *almost* finished her armour, and has been authourised for
10 years!
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Zebee Johnstone  DoD #605   | You don't own an Italian motorcycle 
     Adelaide City Council       |  - you merely have the privilege 
    zebee@itd.adelaide.edu.au    |    of paying its bills.... 
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: sbloch@silver.cs.umanitoba.ca (Stephen Bloch)
Subject: Re: Pennsic Fair
Organization: Computer Science, University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 03:15:29 GMT

mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:
>... we know
>of one case where a lord deliberately swtiched sides to make a political
>statement, and considerable mayhem followed.

Yes, I remember... Pennsic XVI, wasn't it?  (Mayhem, perhaps, but
the chocolate chip cookies were good.)

		    mar-Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib, being obscure
-- 
					Stephen Bloch
				sbloch@silver.cs.umanitoba.ca
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: cav@bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin)
Subject: Re: Viking Tents
Reply-To: cav@bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 92 20:17:38 GMT

In article <3389@creatures.cs.vt.edu>, jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter) writes:
|> Greetings all from Angharad ver' Rhuawn.  Thora Sharptooth posted,
|> 
|> >I'd like to add my two cents to the Viking tent conversation, and incidentally
|> >to make a few points about the book mentioned by Siobhan.
|> >
|> >With respect to tents, there are references in several sagas to the use of
|> >tents for camping on land during ship voyages--not least in the trip to
|> >Vinland.  It is pretty unlikely that sod foundations were built up for these
|> >tents before they were pitched; of course, the sod booth foundations at
|> >Thingvellir did offer a somewhat more commodious way to tent for a week
|> >(someday maybe the Coopers will let me do this...).  Incidentally, if anyone
|> >wants information on the textile thought to be the tent canvas at Oseberg,
|> >please e-mail me for the source.
|> 
|> I too think that it is very likely that such tents were used at least for brief
|> periods -- you pull in at dusk; it's easier than building sod walls before bed
|> time....  My real reservation is as to whether anyone ever travelled anywhere
|> with the plan to stay there for more than a week, in a viking tent without the
|> foundation.  And lord knows, whatever the answer, they beat plastic domes....

Lady Adrielle from Petrea Thule has a Viking tent with a wooden 'foundation'
which performs the function of the sod foundation but is portable.  I used to
view it with a jaundiced eye, eventhough it obviously increased the usable
space considerably.  Then I went to the Viking ship museum in Oslo and saw
that the shipboard tent had just such a wooden 'foundation' (OK the original
wasn't made of plywood).  Go figure.  
Making the extrapolation from a tent used in a ship burial to one used by 
living persons on land may be stretching things, but there are 
worse cases.

|> 
|> It would probably be really neat to use them with the foundation that we know
|> they often had, though -- you'd get much more usable space for the same square
|> footage and some labor.  Wonder what we could do for sod.....
|> 
|> I may have managed, through ineptitude, to sound anti-Viking-tent.  On the
|> contrary: making Viking tents work even better is a marvelous notion, given that
|> they are cheap, easy to make, and require essentially no rope space.  They just
|> aren't very realistic, even _with_ foundation, for Europeans or middle easterners
|> from the 14th C.... <Sigh.>  Well, you can't have everything....
|> 
|> Cheers,
|> 
|> -- Angharad/Terry

Wassail,
Balderik
From: greg@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Hossein Ali Qomi (mka Gregory F. Rose))
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: COVINGTON CROSS
Date: 27 Aug 92 00:56:34 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.sca
Organization: The Rialto

Unto the good gentles of the Rialto does Hossein Ali Qomi send greetings and
prayers for the blessings of Allah.

Wolfhelm Bertoltz recently posted:

>Come now!  What do you expect on television.  If you watched the show and
>expected the historical accuracy that the SCA would have attempted, you were
>bound to be disappointed.  The show offers scenery and costumes.  Everything
>else will be pithy 1990's politically-correct garbage.  Watch it in the right
>context, and you will not be so upset that CC leaves much to be desired.

Twentieth-century people, with twentieth-century values and attitudes,
dressed funny and pretending to be in 14th century England -- sounds a lot
like the average SCA event, only the costuming was better.  What's the
beef?  It strikes me that ABC has done a rather better job than the SCA
does on average: no duct tape or Nikes in sight.  _That's_ what's embarrassing 
about Covington Cross.

Hossein/Greg
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: Drachenwald to be kingdom
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 16:35:01 GMT

Caitlin de Courcy wrote:
  In answer to Tibor's question, the polling of the paid membership is
  apparently in progress at the moment (I haven't received it as yet).
  I don't know if the petition presented at Pennsic gave the impression
  that it was from the populace of Drachenwald: I would not be pleased if
  that was the case, as neither as a member of the populace or as a peer 
  of the realm have I been consulted on the matter so far.

Perhaps that was the impression given.  I don't know.  Since I was
standing behind the East Realm thrones, helping with the Heraldry,
I can't be sure of the impression given the populace.

The letter (I read it right then) was a very nice declaration that it
was the intent of the populace of Drachenwald to go kingdom, and it
pleased them greatly to ask this boon of the East, and pledges of
eternal friendship, and much flowery stuff.

Since the formal petition doesn't have to go through the East, and
must go through the Board, frankly, the whole court thing was just
schtick.  If the petition fails to carry, the whole game that was
played in court is ignored.

I would venture to say that the vast majority of the population that
attended Pennsic now expects to see Drachenwald go Kingdom sometime
before next Pennsic.  Perhaps the wrong impression was given.

To repeat: it wasn't a petition that was presented at Pennsic, but
the overall impression that was given was: the process is beginning,
and will complete in less than a years time.

Other blind men, of course, may have examined different parts of the
elephant.

	Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mike@micrord.micros.COM ("Michael J. Lonski")
Subject: People's Court of Chivalry
Organization: The Internet
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 13:27:51 GMT

Aryk writes...

> I didn't suppose you were proposing a wide use of it, I was just captivated
> by the thought of Traffic Court of Chivalry.
> 
> Just think of other applications:  Divorce Court of Chivalry, People's Court
> of Chivalry...
> 
> Aryk

I remembered that there was a common practice of taking one's occupation for
a patronymic (ex. Baker, Smith, Cooper,...) but I never realized that that
was the origin of Judge Wopner's last name.  Do you suppose beheading was
a common sentence at the time?

;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)

Yours with tongue firmly in cheek,

Edan Aylwin

-- 
Michael Lonski (address mail to: mikel@micros.com) 301-497-6134
Micros Systems, Inc., R&D, 12000 Baltimore Avenue, Beltsville, MD 20705  

Juggling - the art of consistently dropping thrown objects
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Pennsic Fair
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1992 19:43:52 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!  Keradwc wrote:

> If the idea of trying to hold an actual medieval tournament at/as
> Pennsic works out, why not have 'sides' determined by the people in
> each one. Some years there might be 2 'sides', others, perhaps a dozen.
> Large fighting units could be their own, or could ally with a larger
> group -- or be the large group around which others ally.

The advantage of two sides determined by geography is that it matches
period evidence.  We know that at early tournaments in England, France, and
the Low Countries, the fighters were divided into two sides, and that the
division often (or perhaps usually) follow geographical origin.  

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
From: Joe.Bethancourt@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Joe Bethancourt)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Robin hood recast
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1992 02:22:08

 -=> David Schroeder said to All on 08-28-92  23:55 <=- 

 DS> Cross/Robin Hood bandwagon and encourage folks to "recast" the
 DS> "greats" of the Robin Hood mythos with famous folks from their corner
 DS> of the SCA. Who would YOU like to see in the following roles for YOUR
 DS> kingdom, principality, or territory's production?

And for our local area (SunDragon, Atenveldt and Twin Moons) nowadays:

 Robin of Sherwood: Arthur O'Flaherty (black Irish type. Perfect.)
 Maid Marian: Tamera (O'Flaherty) (tiny, BIG eyes, achingly beautiful)
 The Sheriff of Nottingham: Shron Ravenhair (sleazy looking. Perfect.)
 King Richard: Deaton Claymore (looks like Conan would at age 40. Could
               give Sean Connery a run for his money!)
 Prince John: Trelon of the Wood (Makes a good pout)
 Little John: Robert of Hightower (six feet seven!)
 Will Scarlett: myself, I suppose.....
 Friar Tuck: Denis of the Titans (right build and face....)


                                                        -Ioseph of Locksley
                                                         Grump


... All Peers are equal, but some are -more equal- than others

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: PA142548@utkvm1.utk.edu (T. Archer)
Subject: Re: Grand Pennsic
Organization: University of Tennessee Division of Continuing Education
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 14:01:42 GMT

In article <1992Aug19.203032.23109@progress.com> schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei) writes:
>
>I'd had an interesting conversation with Baron Steffan of Silverwing, and
>we'd agreed that Pennsic, even before this years opening ceremonies, was
>not really a war anymore, but a sort of competition.  That's why I took
>it upon myself to end the festivities at closing court with "This Festival
>and Tournament of Pennsic is hereby closed".
>
I still don't have it clear why the Pensic War has suddenly gained a 
poltically correct name.

>My favorite moment of all, however, was quite accidental.  Lady Tibicen
>had written some music for the play I was in, Wit and Science.  One gentle
>in the audience was quite taken with the music, and asked if he could meet
>us later and record it.  We arranged for him to meet us at the Rialto
>party.  We left the party to find a quiet place, with enough light to let
>us see our music.  I completely lost track of how far we walked, but
>at last we found an encampent, quiet and torchlit, with a single lady
>sitting on the ground near the fire.  We asked permission to sing here,
>it was granted, and we did so.  Once the song was sung (and we listened
>to the recording) the lady complimented us, and asked if she could share
>a song with us in return.
>
>Gentles, I tell you truly, this lady was divine.  She sang a "fifteenth
>Century Italian Love Song", and I can still hear her voice.  Without
>even standing, she sang with such beauty, that I could scarcely see
>the ground before me.  I'll almost certainly never meet that lady again,
>or know it if I did (unless she sang).  But I'll remember her always.
>
I had an experience like that once:  I was driving in an open pickup truck 
to  some property I own up in the mountains when I came upon a shack in the 
woods.  On the porch sat an old man playing a dulcimer.  I was the voice of 
God.  He made it sing, bellow, laugh, and weep.  I stopped my truck in the 
middle of the road and listened for what seemed like forever.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: vader@meryl.csd.uu.se ("]ke Eldberg")
Subject: Steel Demos
Organization: The Internet
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 12:35:22 GMT

Greetings from William de Corbie!

Aboz (aboz@egf-bbs.uucp) writes:
 
>One of our fighters, (the short one) has suggested that one reason we
>don't get many people to try fighting is that it doesn't look real enough.
>He has suggested that for _demos_ we use theatrical steel blades.

When people complain that SCA fighting doesnt look real enough, it is
not the rattan swords they are looking at. It's the armor. If you say
"medieval knights" to mundanes, they expect our fighters to look like
the knights they have seen in films and books.

Instead, they get a couple of guys in baseball-look open helms, dirty
gambesons, hockey gloves and various more or less incongruous bits of
steel, padding and plastic. They get garden-hose edged shields, basket
hilts, jeans and Nikes.

I am not saying that there is anything wrong with this type of armor;
not everyone can make or buy full milanese steel plate... But it
remains that we are not very appearance-oriented. I would really like
to see us doing something about this. If we just get medieval-looking
armor, people will ignore that the swords are not made of steel.

William

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: A thought about Rialto
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1992 17:42:20 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!  Charles Clark wrote:

> My idea is to make the Rialto "slightly moderated," in that it could
> have subject-area moderators... If we had a question, we could send it to
> that person, who would either send us a reply or post the question and
> optional commentary.

I think this already happens, to a certain degree: Many people here make a
point of watching for questions in specific areas, which they answer
quickly and authoritatively.  Tibor for details of Corpora, Thora on fiber
science and Viking culture, Strykar on military strategy, etc.  Those of us
who have been around for a while know who is likely to give the best reply;
I know that I often hold off on posting to wait for one or two people to
make their contributions first.  On the flip side, I often receive
questions about points of heraldry from people on the Rialto; some of them
I simply answer, others I direct back to the Rialto or the heralds' mailing
list. 

It might be helpful to encourage people to try to get answers to their
questions by direct mail before posting to the entire newsgroup, and if you
want to compile an "expert list" to be included in the FAQ (or something
like that), it might be helpful.  For example, it would be particularly
useful if there were someone who would volunteer to take questions about
"what group is in this area?" or "is there an event in this area on
such-and-such weekend?"  However, I doubt that an informal arrangement is
going to make a major difference.  As several people noted, the Rialto is
already a group with a notably high signal-to-noise ratio.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra)
Subject: Re: Multiple titles (was Edward Zifran of Gendy)
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 02:40:49 GMT

In article <1992Aug31.181137.14182@watson.ibm.com> mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:
>Greetings from Arval!
>
>At the risk of sounding unbearably stuffy, I'd like to point out that
>stringing multiple titles before a name...
>
>> Viscount Viscount Viscount Viscount Sir Sir Master Master Edward, 
>
>...is an incorrect practice, for two reasons.  First, they didn't do that
>in period.  A knight who had been admitted into several orders of
>knighthood was not "Sir Sir Sir Peter".  The Duke of York, who also
>happened to be Earl of Huntingdon (hypothetical example) was not "Duke Earl
>John", though he was sometimes "John, Duke of York, Earl of Huntingdon".
>Second, I think title-stringing encourages the perception that SCA titles
>are merit badges, each given for the completion of specific tasks.  They
>are not.  A title is not a recognition of what you've _done_, but rather of
>what you _are_.  I realize that when people use title strings they intend
>it as a gesture of respect, but I would remind you that respect, too, is
>given for what you are, not what you have listed in the Order of
>Precedence.  No collection of titles can increase it, and omission of
>titles won't decrease it.
>
>The correct usage is one title at a time, as appropriate.

At the risk of sounding unbearably facetious, no kidding. Since you didn't 
get it, it was a jest between friends. Anyone who knows Edward knows that
the last thing he is is title happy. Anyone who knows me knows that the
last thing I am is title conscious except where it concerns those for whom
I have the utmost respect. Given that I got the string from Ed, the fact
that I would use it in a public forum as a jest he shares, is a measure of
the respect I hold for the man himself. I am proud to know him and be counted
among his friends, and would be so regardless of his place in the Society.
Your comments would be better directed to those who insist on being called
Duke Sir Thusandsuch, and not to someone who is merely sharing a joke with a
friend.

BTW, read my .sig file. We don't have awards of merit, and our titles are
simply a way of recognizing someone's place in a heirarchy of communication
that is necessary in a household that is spread across the country.

Someone open a digital window. This place needs some airing out.

In service,

Corun

-- 
===========================================================================
    Corun MacAnndra     |  The great thing about travel is getting to
  Dark Horde by birth   |   meet new people and see new places.
    Moritu by choice    |                            G. Khan
From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period songs and their content (very long, with primary sources)
Date: 4 Sep 92 18:12:38 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

DICKSNR@qucdn.queensu.ca (Sarra Graeham, courtesy of Lord Angus):
>The results of this research?  I do not know of a single English song be-
>fore 1610 which exhibits a supernatural worldview outside the Christian
>one.  I have not found a single English song which speaks of an individual
>by name; although the Renaissance songs frequently address a woman...

I'm going to nit-pick at some of Sarra's details while agreeing with her
general thesis.  Looking at early English ballads (which is to say, 
those of the sixteenth century), we find specific names often enough,
in ballads such as Andrew Barton, and John Dory.  And tales of an historical
battle (such as Chevy Chase/The Hunting of the Cheviot) will often
yield sizable role-calls.

The point about the supernatural is on firmer ground:  Ghosts and witches
and revenants were an obsession of eighteenth century balladry.  Elements
of fantasy or generally reliable indicators that a song is out of period.
(A couple of qualifiers.  First, the odd dragon is allowed, but not
considered fantasy.  Second, so is the odd Elf, but these are creatures
of the Devil, and should not be confused with Tolkien-type Elves.  (Come
to that, dragons are also associated with the devil.))

That said, I have to agree strongly with the more general argument.  It's
hard to identify the precise combination of musical conventions, word
choices, themes, and sensibilities that makes a song 'period-sounding',
but one learns to recognize it.  When you've listened to enough period
music, and read enough period song, modern folk-songs stop sounding
authentically period.  After a while longer, eighteenth-century folk songs
stop sounding period.  The problem with most 'period-sounding' songs
is that those presenting themselves are often fooling themselves.

-----
Dani of the Seven Wells
dani@netcom.com

Roses red and violets blew
  and all the sweetest flowres that in the forrest grew -- Edmund Spenser
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: Pennsic Land Allocation
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 14:10:43 GMT

Hal Ravn had a number of comments on Pennsic Land stuff.

It seemed to me, the Land Autocrat wasn't renting space, he is
renting attendance rights.  With the right to attend comes the
right to camp on 235 square feet of space.

The deal was, no person, no attendee, no space.  The land rules
specifically forbid renting land.  The Land Autocrat does indeed
"go around and count noses (or bedrolls)" if a complaint is
made.  And, I suspect that if things had gotten as crowded as
we were led to expect, he would have spent a lot of time
saying "Please take down that dining fly, we have a single camper
who needs that space, and he will be here in five minutes.

You may not pay the fee at Pennsic for someone who is not present.
And as far as Koshka's cat, Harry, is concerned, no pets are
allowed.  Is he really a squire?  What knight has sworn to train
a cat to fight, and why is he willing to defend his honor?  I
can just see him standing in the backyard as Harry goes prowling...

	Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca