From: tichauer@valpso.hanse.de (Manfredo Tichauer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Fuehrer meets Mufti
Keywords: Tichauer
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 00:37:11 +0100
Organization: "The Private Site of Manfredo Tichauer"

bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:

> In article <FmycuB1w165w@valpso.hanse.de> Manfredo Tichauer writes:
> >bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:
> 
> >>       MEQ #23.  Der Fuehrer und der Grossmufti.
>        
> >     [deleted lines]
>    
> >>    The Fuehrer then made the following declaration, requesting
> >>    the Mufti to lock it deep in his heart:
>  
> >     [deleted lines] 
>  
> >>    3) As soon as this breakthrough was made, the Fuehrer would
> >>       offer the Arab world his personal assurance that the hour
> >>       of liberation had struck. Thereafter, Germany's only
> >>       remaining objective in the region would be limited to the
> >>       annihilation of the Jews [*] living under British
> >        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
> >>       protection in Arab lands...
> 
> >>    [Excerpts from a meeting between Adolf Hitler and Haj Amin
> >>    Husseini, Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, on 28 November 1941.
> >>    The notes were taken by Dr. Paul Otto Schmidt, a translator
> >>    in the Foreign Minister's Secretariat.]
>  
> >>    Source:
> >>      geheime Reichssache 57 a/41, quoted in G. Fleming, Hitler and
> >>      the Final Solution (Univ of California Press, 1984) 101-104.
> >> 
> >>    [*] "Vernichtung des ...Judentums" in the German original.
> >>    [Akten zur D. Aus. Pol. 1918-1945, Ser. D, XIII/2, p718]
> >>    This phrase can reasonably be translated "annihilation of the
> >>    Jews" as here, but weaker interpretations are possible.
> >                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >>    A query on soc.culture.german failed to resolve this issue
> >>       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
> >>    despite more than 30 responses, ranging from "annihilation
> >>    of the Jews is the only possible translation" to "a dramatic
> >>    way to promise elimination of the Jewish national home".
> >>    What the Mufti considered he had been promised is uncertain,
> >>    as the only other record of the conversation, the Mufti's
> >>    diary, says merely "annihilate the power that brings the Jews",
> >>    maybe meaning Britain. [J. Peters, From Time Immemorial, p438]
> >>    The strongest known promise ever made to the Mufti in writing
> >>    was "abolition of the Jewish national home".
> 
> >>    Acknowledgement: Apart from the note, this MEQ was prepared by
> >>       Danny Keren.  The note was written by the editor.
> 
> >    Only a blunt antisemite and/or a nazi would have the guts to 
> >    put such a theory on the net. 
> 
> Dear Manfredo, Contrary to the way I felt on reading your posting, 
> I am going to behave better than you did and assume that you made
> an innocent misinterpretation of my posting.  It seems to be that my 
> posting lends itself too readily to such misinterpretation; in that
> case a few lines of e-mail would have caused me to immediately post 
> a revision.  I will do that, not because of you but despite you.

  Dear Brendan,

  I want to apologize to you (and to all of you who also felt hurt)
  because of my impetuous reaction after reading your poster. I must
  say that although I get besides s.c.j. also t.p.m., I almost never read
  this last group because it nerves me to read such a lot ofjunk, flames,etc.
  (e.g. Mutlu/S.Argic). As I have only MS-DOS, I can't "kill" whatever or
  whoever I want. Also I normally don't read discussions about Israel
  since my points of view about Israel and Zionism are very clear and I
  don't intend to discuss about it. Personally I am a zionist (living in
  the galut) but I agree that Israels government, as any other countries 
  government, committed and commit a lot of mistakes, and these are to
  be critizised. 
  
  When I read the poster, I got angry not because of the original poster
  (written by Danny Keren) but because of the note (*). I just read   
  
    "... but weaker interpretations are possible"         and
    "..a query on s.c.g. failed to resolve this issue"
 
  and these 2 sentences gave me a nice shot of adrenaline. I don't read
  s.c.g. at all, but even if I read it, for me it was important what was
  written in your poster (also other readers get an impression from it
  without needing to read older posters in other newsgroups). There is
  something else. Many persons (even some historians) claim that because
  till now nobody has found a document signed by Hitler which states that
  he personally ordered the annihilation of the Jews, he was not guilty
  of what was done in his name. If you remember, some years ago the
  German weekly magazin "Stern" published the alleged Hitler's diary:
  it was announced that because of them, history would be re-written,
  since in those books nothing was written about the annihilation of
  the Jews, ergo, he didn't know anything about it. Even a very known
  (and serious) German historian believed in the authenticity of the
  diary! You should have seen how many people sight with relieve when
  they heard about it. Some persons told me: "you see, Manfredo, HE was
  not guilty of what a couple of nazis did". Of course, the big deception
  came when it was discovered that the diary was a fake.  
     
  The experience that I have living already 25 years in this country,
  where so many people try to relativize and to minimize our common his-
  tory (I don't say that most of the Germans do this, but a frightening
  big group with an increasing tendency do it) and with the results that
  everybody all over the world can see in the TV, I got very sensitive
  to everything that has to do with old and neo nazis. Although it is 
  forbidden: you can get in any fleamarket nazi emblems; people rise 
  their arms saluting with "Heil H.." in front of the police and TV-cameras;
  politicians from ALL the political parties express openly antisemitic
  statements (this happens specially since the CDU took power of the
  government) and their representatives do nothing against it; the police
  lets rightist criminals burn down homes for refugees (with people still
  inside of the houses!); a town-councilor (from the CDU) of the city of
  Pforzheim invites David Irving and Fred Leder (an American of German
  origin, who has a very "interesting" enterprise in USA: he develops and 
  perfectionates electric chairs and other killing instruments, which are
  sold to the different US-states where death penalty is still effective)
  to give a lecture in a pub (a German TV-team was present) about "Die
  Auschwitz-Luege" (they say there were no gas chambers in Auschwitz and
  only some 10-thousands of Jews died because of lack of  hygienics,
  although it is forbidden by German law to make or write openly these
  statements). I have personally sued some people but although this city
  is and was always considered a "red" (left) city, it didn't help very
  much. I was personally acquainted with the senior public prosecutor who
  was in charge of nazi and neonazi crimes, and he told me that although
  the laws are in the books, the judges don't care much about them. 

  If you understand all this, you might understand my reaction when I
  read those lines of your note. I must say that I never read something
  written from you, so that I didn't really know your position about
  Jews and Jewish history.
  
> If you had paid any attention to my postings on s.c.g, you would know
> that I did NOT ask what Hitler had in mind when he said those words.
> I didn't ask that because I don't think there is any reasonable
> doubt about it.  I believe that if the Nazis gained control over the
> Middle East, sooner or later they would have killed all the Jews
> and a large number of Arabs.  (If you doubt the latter, I can suggest 
> some reading where Hitler referred to Arabs as "half-apes".)

  I don't doubt it. Although the Turcs fought together with the Germans
  during WWI, the Turcs living now here are the underdogs. Since Turcs
  and Arabs are Muslims, they don't make a distinction.

  Again, Brendan. I sincerely apologize for thinking wrongly about you
  and writing it down in the net. It was my mistake because I misinter-
  preted you. I sincerely hope that you accept my apology.

  Shalom
  Manfredo



  To the German readers and readers of s.c.g.:
  I would like that you don't think that I generalize about all Germans.
  I know that there are many Germans that think and behave very differently
  only that I miss their moral courage (Zivil-courage).
  I remember that after the carnage of Sabra and Shatilla (Beirut,Lebanon)
  a crime commited by arabs to arabs, but where the israeli army had some
  joint responsability, the Israeli population made a big demonstration
  against those who were responsible from the Israeli side. Almost 400.000
  persons demonstrated in Tel-Aviv, that is 10 per cent of the Jewish
  population of Israel. Here in Germany,  after several months of almost
  daily racist tumults, only when Germany's president  von Weizsaecker 
  decided to organize a demonstration against racism in Berlin, supported
  by most of the political parties (without the CSU = Social-Xtians and
  the Republicans = unoficial neonazis), the churches, trade-unions, etc.
  just 350.000 persons (thousands of them were foreigners) went to the
  demonstration (0.4 per cent of all the German population). Even so, a
  small group of just about 300 left wing rioters achieved that the
  demonstration had a bad end. I feel very sad that all  this happens
  in this country, a country where  nobody can say that they don't know
  what was done here in the name of the German people. It is very sad to
  know that our Jewish representatives in Germany receive almost daily
  anonymous threats either by mail or telephone, but also smear letters
  with full name and address. It is sad to know that each time we go
  to our sinagoges we need police custody (until one year ago it was to
  protect us from Arabic terrorists, now also from German terrorists).
  It is sad to read in Jewish newspapers (in German newspapers it is not
  news any more) of weekly smearings in Jewish cemeteries, sinagoges,etc.
  It is sad to see in TV how monuments that reminds places from where Jews
  were sent to their deaths, or places where Jews were murdered, are burnt
  down, bombed, smeared. All this in Germany! But it is very interesting
  to see that until 1989, the 9th.November (the Reichspogrommnight, also
  called Reichskristallnacht) was remembered every year with many special
  TV programmes and films. Since the reunification of both Germanys (also
  on a 9th.November, isn't this a strange coincidence?), there has been
  NOT ONE programme on the TV during that day, that reminds the pogromm
  that happened on such a day: it is just announced in the news. Do you
  have an explanation for it?  I have one, but it is just a speculation
  which is also shared by some friends of mine, Jews and non-Jews. Only
  history will tell us if we are right or not. 

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  Manfredo Tichauer M.                       EMAIL : tichauer@valpso.hanse.de
  Opitzstrasse 14                            VOICE :     (++ 49 40)  27.42.27
  2000 Hamburg 60 - GERMANY                  FAX   :     (++ 49 40) 270.53.09
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Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast