From: chapin@cbnewsc.cb.att.com ( Tom Chapin )
Subject: Re: Adults, Children and sex
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 01:47:14 GMT

ljf writes:

>Tom Chapin writes:
>>I believe those making that false claim are promoting an unhealthy
>>view of sexuality which promotes the very child abuse they claim to
>>be opposing
>
>What false claim are you talking about?  

>>[repeating:]	the claim that such advances are inevitably harmful,
>>traumatic, and coercive.  

>This sounds reasonable to me.  So, when are children usually the
>stronger party wrt an adult?  

Any time they can call upon the power of those who are stronger
than that particular adult.

>IMO, any child under the age of 10 or so is definitely the weaker
>party wrt an adult. 

I already (see below) gave an example where children under ten were
the stronger wrt someone more adult, which you airily dismissed:

>>I do know of
>>an act of rape from my childhood where two children age ten or under
>>raped an older teenage babysitter by threatening to make a false
>>accusation of child molestation against her.  
>
>How many cases like that exist?  

You appear to be suggesting that we need only deal with what is most
statistically likely, and if my example is a minority, then it can
be discounted.  Would you be willing to try taking the question to
talk.rape to ask which women would be willing to have their rapes
discounted because the details were uncommon?  Personally, I am of
the opinion that when I am attacking a sweeping generalization, I
need only provide one counterexample to prove the rule to be false.

>>I myself can give no easy answers as to when sexuality is non-
>>coercive and permissible, and when it is coercive and not
>>permissible.  All easy categories are false, and every situation
>>must be judged on its merits.  
>
>Hmmm....  So, a case of a 4 year old and an adult having oral sex,
>that is a situation where it is difficult to judge, a not-easy
>situation?

I gave such an example, which by now you have seen.  I believe that
it is definitely one where it is difficult to judge, especially if
one is trying to judge that the adult harmed the child.  I believe
it gives but one more example that those who attempt to make
sweeping generalizations and force everyone else to live their fears
and fantasies will cause much more harm than they prevent.

>This is where I'm really having problems with you.  As I've said
>frequently in the past few days, I know men who had positive sexual
>experiences with adults when they were 11, 12, and 13.  I know of no
>one who had a positive sexual experience with an adult when s/he was 4
>or 5.  For you to say that sex between an adult and a 4 year old is an
>easy-so-false catagory amazes me.

It amazes me that you, for whose postings I have the greatest
respect, would seem to be willing to devise a set of rules of
behavior based on whether you have a few acquaintances with
experiences to relate.  I can see using individual examples to
attack sweeping generalizations, but not to create them.  If your
logic is correct, then my example of sexuality between a 5 year old
and a much older brother should provide you with the example you
seem to have been looking for.  Will it?

As for me, my anecdotal experiences have only taught me (again) that
all quick and easy answers avoid dealing with complex reality, have
no greater validity than the prior biases which determined which
evidence would be allowable in determining the easy answers, and
ultimately create and perpetuate precisely the abuses they claim to
oppose.

-- 
	     tom chapin                tjc@hrcce.att.com
Xref: sparky soc.men:15472 soc.women:15756 alt.child-support:2899