From: mfolenta@pica.army.mil
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Black-powder, Pyrodex or ?
Date: 7 Jan 93 23:59:46 GMT


 Michael Gordon writes:
#  dnewcomb@whale.st.usm.edu (Donald R. Newcomb) says:
# #
# #
# #The problem with this is that I don't understand why Pyrodex has to
# #cause/promote all this rusting. Pyrodex is a smokeless bulk (volumetric)ow
# #powder with some additive that causes it to smoke. Now there is nothing
# #new about bulk powders. In _Hatcher's_Notebook_, Gen. Hatcher discusses
# #powders that are loaded volume for volume the same as black powder. One
# #such powder was Schultze powder (p.317). In _Cartridges_of_the_World_
# #(Ed. 4), Barnes discusses bulk powders and mentions that DuPont made
# #bulk shotgun powder into the 1960s (p. 326-327). Now, I presume that
# #these powders did not cause or promote rusting in the way that Pyrodex
# #seems to. It must be possible to make a black powder substitute that
# #does not create rust. What is needed is for someone to market an
# #old fashioned volumetric equivalent of black powder without the rust.
# #
# #--
#    Pyrodex is not a smokeless powder (either nitrocellulose or nitroglycerin
# based).  According to an American Rifleman profile of the powder and Hodgon
# several years ago, its ingredients are not dissimilar to black powder.
# 
#    Also, as far as I know, bulk smokeless powders were designed to be
# used in cartridge firearms,  primarily shotguns and were
# measured in equal volume to black powder.
# 
#    It is GOSPEL among black powder shooter that only black powder
# or pyrodex is to be used in muzzleloaders (which includes cap and
# ball revolvers.  Although I have read that in the late 19th century
# and early 20 th century that some muzzle loading rifle users were
# using semi-smokeless powders.  Like many of the posters on this thread,
# I would like to see more information as to why no smokeless loads
# can ever be used in muzzleloaders, and what happens when judicious
# loads of fast burning smokeless powders are used under experimental
# conditions (firing remotely).But until much more is known, if you
# want to fill the chambers of your cap and ball revolver with Bullseye
# or Unique, go ahead, its your hand, your face and your gun.  Just don't
# run out afterwards (after you get out of the hospital) and hire a lawyer
# to sue Hercules Powder Co., Ruger et al.
# 

     OK, once upon a time (don't you just LOVE it when it starts like this?X
there was black powder.  You know, that stuff made from carbon (coal), a
 nitrate (saltpeter), and sulfur.  The factories would mix and mash the stuff
 up and mold it into different size grains to get different burning rates, but 
 that was about it.  Black powder worked as a gun propellant.  But it was bulky
 (good and bad point) and had other 'features', including a practical limit to
 how fast it could push a projectile (around 2000 fps I think).  The ONLY way
 to make a black powder round more powerful was to use a heavier projectile
 (and a heavier charge to push it as fast as the lighter projectile used to
go).
 So we had big, heavy, slow (relatively) bullets.  Black powder also burns (for
 the most part - don't start splitting hairs about deflagration/detonation with
 me, I know about it) as opposed to exploding.  It also produces a different
type
 of pressure curve than smokeless powder.  And the peak pressures are _usually_
 much lower than smokeless powder loads, even for the same ballistics!  Black
 powder (and Pyrodex, a black powder substitute that behaves like black powder)
 gives more of a -shove- to a projectile as opposed to smokeless powder's
-slap-.

     Now, smokeless powder _explodes_.  It can produce -much- higher chambeX
pressures (we nowadays routinely use pistol loads of 40,000 cup and rifle loads
 of 50,000 cup!)  Black powder doesn't even come close to that.  And something
 has to hold/contain/resist those chamber pressures - like the gun.

     Ahh, the gun, that piece of machinery/art that can be cast zinc or for`
and
 machined alloy steel or -gasp- plastic (polymer for those who like
fancy-sounding
 words) or titanium or ...  You get the idea.  But for all practical purposes,
the
 barrel and chamber of ALL (real) guns is made of steel.  And the steels made
now
 are able to withstand those high chamber pressures, but they didn't always used
to.
 And the gun must be designed to handle those high pressures and reactions too.

     So why don't we use smokeless powders in black powder guns?  Because t`
weren't DESIGNED for it.  Why do you have a black powder gun (even a modern
 replica) - because of the mystique, the nostalgia, the lore that goes with it.
 (Or you just want to be able to hunt during muzzle-loader only seasons :-} )
 Part of the useage of a black powder gun is to USE black powder (or Pyrodex).
 If you don't want to put up with its quirks, don't use that kind of gun.  We
 don't use smokeless powder in water pistols or rubber-band guns either. :-}

     If you want to use smokeless powder, get a gun designed for it.  If yo`
have a black powder gun, then use black powder (or Pyrodex).  If you want a
 house pet, you consider a dog or a cat, not generally a wolf or a tiger,
 even though a wolf is _just_ a big canine and a tiger is _just_ a big feline,
 right?  (tongue-in-cheek bad analogy for the humor impaired)

     DON'T USE SMOKELESS POWDER IN A BLACK POWDER (sic) GUN!!!!!!!


       ***** These are my opinions.  Get your own. :-) *****
      Michael Folenta          | U.S. Army ARDEC
   Future Weapons Branch       | Picatinny Arsenal, NJ 07806-5000
  email mfolenta@pica.army.mil | (201) 724-3880  [AV 880-3880]