HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Sun, 6 Sep 1992 17:58:16 EDT
From:         "Daniel A. Foss" <DFOSS@CCVM.SUNYSB.EDU>
Subject:      Subversion, special case of filibustering

Those of you who controversed over US filibustering (Walker's conquest of
Nicaragua; the planter oligarchy's overthrow of Liliuokalani's monarchy in
Hawaii, 1893; but YOU BRITS said nothing about the Jameson Raid, 1895!). But
much more commonplace today is the situation where an indigenous political or
military faction in a minor state places itself at the service of a major
power which, with some assistance or at least approbation followed by subsidy,
in effect ensures a violent change of government. Or the fall of a regime
violently resisting overthrow by an Opposition which is itself Not Nice.

   Let us, I mean, YOU, take a few sample instances. If I did it there'd be
complaints of "surlong" postings, cries of "Kruchio him!" and Lennification
whilst Rip van Barahona takes it easy.

   1. The invention of the Republic of Panama, 1904, because Colombia was
charging, it was thought, an arm and a leg for rights to build the Isthmian
Canal. The local fuerzas rebeldes woke up so late for the revolution that the
US Navy beat them to the scene to protect US Lives and of course Property.

   2. The assassination of Trujillo, 1961, to bring freedom & democracy to the
Dominican Republic and not screw up the schedule for the Alliance for Progress.

   3. The military coup in the same Dominican Republic which overthrew the
"democratically" as things go elected Juan Bosch after serving from February
to November, 1963. "When we said Democracy," in effect, "we certainly did not
have that sort of People in mind."

   4. Same sort of thing on a much vaster scale in Brazil, 1964.

   5. I'd mention Indonesia, 1965, but it's much too sickening. There are still
even today a few people in Indonesia who believe the official story and that
the CIA did not have anything to do with the Rightist coup and the ensuing
massacre of, conservatively, half a million civilians.

Daniel A. Foss
From: NASSH100@SIVM.BITNET (Allan Needell)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Subject: The advent of "technological secrecy"
Date: 10 Sep 92 10:08:40 GMT
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Comments:     Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2

From: Allan Needell

I have a speaker (in April of 1952) trying to analyze and discuss the history
and implications of various forms on secrecy on society (specifically on the
democratic form of government). He makes the following distinctions: 1)
Diplomatic secrecy" in which governments keep private the content and details
of their interactions with foreign governments, etc. (this is old and
according to the speaker necessary but counter to American traditions and
values and thus to be kept to a minimum); 2) secrecy surrounding military
operations (this is good and necessary) 3) "technological secrecy" in which
certain weapons or weapons systems are kept secret. He traces the advent of
large scale technological secrecy to the technology of radar in the 1930s
(spreading rapidly during wwii to to the atomic bomb technologies, etc.). This
"new" kind of secrecy created grave problems for democracy and our traditional
forms of government organization.

My question is, how valid is the assertion that "technological secrecy" on a
large scale was new to the technologies of World War II. I could list
technologies developed in secret during earlier wars WW I; chemical weapons
come first to mind, but was that secrecy on such a smaller scale as to make it
qualitatively different than the secrecy imposed on technological advances
after 1930? That is what my speaker is claiming.

Comments?

Allan Needell
National Air & Space Museum
Smithsonian Institution
Washington, DC 20560  (BITNET: NASSH100@SIVM)
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Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 14:01:54 EDT
From:         Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Oldest City in North America?
              7 Sep 1992 18:49:27 GMT from <carlos@GARFIELD.CS.M UN.CA>

On Mon, 7 Sep 1992 18:49:27 GMT Carlos Borges said:
>Which is the oldest city in North America that is still around?
>I've been told it's St. John's, Newfoundland, but I thought
>Mexico City was settled by Europeans first.  Any others?
>
I meant to say something at the time: I detect some ambiguity in this question.
Do you want the oldest city founded by anyone at all, or the oldest city
founded by Europeans?
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 09:55:00 EDT
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject:      Help with error msg.

On Tue, 8 Sep 92 15:18:24 MSZ ListEARN List Processor (1.3)
<LISTSERV@DGOGWDG1.BITNET> said:

> Error 2013 from LSVFWR1 HISTORY LOG9209 M while logging mail for HISTORY.
> An incomplete copy of the message might be present in the notebook. List is
> being held with current mailing being postponed. Your file (8071) has been
> transferred to HSTEENW1@DGOGWDG1.

Could someone please explain what this is all about?
Thanks,
Denis Paz
dgpaz@clemson.bitnet
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 19:12:31 PDT
From:         bob pasker <bob@HALFDOME.SF.CA.US>
Subject:      and the address of the listserver is
Comments: To: well!ubvm.bitnet!HISTOWNR@uunet.UU.NET,
              well!rutvm1.BITNET!history@uunet.UU.NET

>i gave the wrong address for sochist. the correct address is
>
>	sochist@uscvm.bitnet
>
>my apologies.

and the address of the listserv is:

	listserv@uscvm.bitnet

i'm sorry for the confusion.


--
-- bob pasker
-- bob@halfdome.sf.ca.us
--
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Acknowledge-To: dmpeers@acs.ucalgary.ca
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Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 23:06:53 MDT
From:         dmpeers@ACS.UCALGARY.CA
Subject:      notebook

Does anybody out there know whether the Notebook database is
still being sold?  Last year I heard rumours that a new version
was due out, one that worked under windows, but I have not seen
anything on it.  I have not even seen any recent advertisements
in the American Historical Review.
As this seems to be an excellent program, I would appreciate any
info I can get.

Douglas Peers
Department of History
University of Calgary

--
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 10:02:10 EDT
From: Stephen McCluskey <SCMCC@wvnvm.wvnet.edu>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Subject: Re: The advent of "technological secrecy"

Marion Diamond wrote:
>
>I'm sure there are many more examples - in fact, the 20C scientific
>(as opposed to military) ethic of open access to research and the
>publication of results is new: Roger Bacon or Newton would have thought
>this a very altruistic concept.
>
      You're probably close on Roger Bacon, but Newton and his contempor-
aries are another matter.  The 17th c. was full of concern for the free
dissemination of craft and scientific information of all kinds.  The
figures around Samuel Hartlib are interesting on the craft side, while
Marin Mersenne, Henry Oldenburg, and of course, the founders of the Royal
Society are all signs of the attitude of free dissemination of ideas.
     I wouldn't be surprised if the renewed emphasis on secrecy has some
roots in the commercial concern for maintaining proprietary information
for competitive advantage.  19th. c. entrepeneurs and medieval guilds had
similar economic concerns.
-- Steve McCluskey
From: U953117@RUTADMIN.BITNET (Glenn R. Greene)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Subject: Re: Oldest City in North America?
Date: 10 Sep 92 13:13:00 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

Lenny,
    Not only did the Aztecs do quite well without the wheel they
also had a population problem.  One theory I heard for the hugh
level of human sacrifice was to ensure there was enough food to
go around.  Of course it was usually captives that were sacrificed,
but if you didn't want to let them go and you didn't want to feed them,
why not use them to cull favor from the gods.
                                                Glenn Greene


------------------------------TEXT-OF-YOUR-MAIL--------------------------------

> I find it difficult to believe that cultures which had not yet discovered
> the wheel could build really large cities.
>
> How did they bring in food and other goods required by the urbanites, who
> were perforce cut off from the agricultural areas?
>
> Lenny
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Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 11:15:09 EST
From:         "Sidney W. Kitchel" <kitchel@OCTOPUS.DPSI.COM>
Subject:      Re: PS to the previous post about JFK
Comments: To: HISTORY%RUTVM1.BITNET@pucc.princeton.edu

Lenny writes:
|->
|-> Computer enhancement was invented in 1963, in order to squeeze more
|-> information out of the first pictures returned from Mars by whatever
|-> that spacecraft was called.  The techniques used were rudimentary by
|-> today's standards, and did not make much improvement.

	Yes the early techniques were mostly applying local smoothing
of the pixel data.

|-> Wait another 5 hears.  Some VERY innovative work is being done in that
|-> field........in order to enchance the Hubble Space Telescoeps images.
|-> <And P.S.....no matter what they say, HST pictures are 100X better than
|-> anything we ever had before.>

	Right again!! We are now seeing papers with titles like
"Comparing Restored HST and VLA Imagery of R Aquarii". Here a
methodology called Maximum Entropy Method (MEM), "a simple successive
approximation technique for optimizing the entropy of the image
subject to various constraints enforced by Lagrange multipliers..." is
applied. The image is digitized and crunched on by a MasPar MP-1216
supercomputer at Goddard Space Flight Center running the MEM
algorithm.
							--Sid
--
Sidney W. Kitchel  	    kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com
Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
4617 E. Morningside Drive	                      (812) 334-8100
Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA		FAX:  (812) 334-8121
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Date:         Sun, 13 Sep 1992 23:02:38 BST
From:         Christopher Currie <c.currie@CLUS1.ULCC.AC.UK>
Subject:      Re: Oldest City in North America?

>
> In article <1992Sep11.060049.28411@europa.lonestar.org>
 tom@europa.lonestar.org
> (Tom Kimball) writes:
> >
> >OK.  Its time for a geography lesson for you both.
> >North America = everything north of the Columbia-Panama border.
>
> OK.  It's time for a geography lesson for you one.
> The country south of Panama is COLOMBIA, not Columbia.
>
> --hernan
OK. More geography lessons for you two.

The country south of Panama (though separated from it by a large stretch of
sea) is Ecuador. Colombia is EAST of Panama. Large chunks of Colombia and
Venezuela are north of the Colombia/Panama border and thus fall in North
America under Tom's definition (as, if we're being uncharitable, do all Europe,
much of Africa, and most of Asia).

'And I know the place he lives in (or at least--I think I do)
It is Ecuador, Brazil or Chili-- possibly Peru;
You must find it in the Atlas if you can.'

    - Hilaire Belloc, 'The Llama'

Christopher
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From: S30285@BC750.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Subject: TO JANE BURCHFIELD, BUCKNELL UNIVERSITY
Date: 8 Sep 92 08:35:10 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Envelope-to: HISTORY@RUTVM1.BITNET
X-VMS-To: IN%"HISTORY@RUTVM1.BITNET"

Dear Ms Burchfield,
        Some time ago you mentioned an American Antiquarian Society publicaiton
entitled "How Much Is That in Real Money?"  I have tried to find that listed
in Books in Print and other sources and cannot find it.  I want our library to
order a copy, but I need more information.  Can you provide author (if any),
date of publication, ISBN number and cost?  If so, I would be very grateful.
        I'm sorry to take the network space to write a personal message, but
I did not note Ms Burchfield's e-mail address.
        Thank you for your time and consideration.
J. Barton Starr
Hong Kong Baptist College
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Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 13:57:25 -0400
Reply-To:     "Cheryl P. Lewis" <cpl@po.CWRU.Edu>
From:         "Cheryl P. Lewis" <cpl@PO.CWRU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: the social history list
Comments: To: HISTORY@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu

  Dear Sir:

  Please place me on your Social History List:
  SUBSCRIBE SOCHIST, cpl@cwru.edu

--
Cheryl Lewis           (216) 368-2792
Circulation Assistant   cpl@po.cwru.edu
Law Library
Case Western Reserve University
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Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1992 16:22:12 BST
From:         Christopher Currie <c.currie@CLUS1.ULCC.AC.UK>
Subject:      Re: The advent of "technological secrecy"

>
>
> In article <8822.9209112300@clus1.ulcc.ac.uk> Christopher Currie
> <c.currie@CLUS1.ULCC.AC.UK> writes:
> >>      (the Luftwaffe failed to
> >>     develop a strategic bombing strategy).
> >
> >What!!!!  That's news  to us Londoners.
> >
> >Christopher
>
> were lousy, too. From most accounts, they probably would have succeeded in
> destroying the RAF if they had stuck to bombing the RAF fields and the radar
> stations and left the cities alone. By giving the RAF the opportunity to
> "catch their breath", the Luftwaffe sealed their own fate.

In other words by switching from tactical bombing (against enemy air forces)
to strategic bombing of cities they lost the campaign. That the strategy
was bad doesn't mean they didn't develop one. Despite the Alllied Strategic
bombing Speer was able to increase German war production until well into
1944. The effectiveness of this particular bombing strategy, in relation
to its cost, is still much debated.

The germans did not need to develop long-range bombers because they had
airfields within medium range of all possible British industrial targets.
The RAF had also failed to develop long-range protective fighters in
tandem with their bombers; it was not until the development of the Mustang,
surely, that the Allies had reasonable command of the skies over Germany.

Christopher
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 13:35:39 -0400
From:         ICJME@ASUACAD.BITNET
Subject:      The advent of "technological secrecy"

 *** Reply to note of 09/10/92 07:24
 Greetings and Salutations
 Allan,
   With the exception of the Manhattan Project, and its off-shoots, I believe
 that the differences are in degree not in kind. People had to sign or affirm
 that they would not discuss what they were doing. Part of this is, of course,
 protection against industrial spies as well as foreign and domestic agents
 (Army v. Navy - who is the real enemy?)
   However, a point in your speaker's favor is that prior to the 1930's the
 military largely used civilian equipment, or made their own. It was with the
 increasing complexity and cost of equipment that we first see the beginnings
 of the "military-industrial complex." But, even there, the procedures used to
 keep the technology under R&D classified were largely the same as that used
 earlier to keep our intelligence activities safe from prying eyes (cf "Magic,"
 "Purple," "The Black Chamber," "MI-8," and "Signal Intelligence Service" - all
 done in or before the 1930s.)
   However, the reason I said that the differences were in degree rather than
 in kind is because the need for secrecy to protect new weapons system(s)
 against
      the enemy was the same in WWI as in WWII. There was official paranoia
 against the enemy learning about what the US was doing. Both wars had their
 equivalents of "Loose Lips Sink Ships," and those wonderful drawings showing
 "someone (generally in a German General Staff uniform, complete with spiked
 helment) listening in to a conversation - either in a bar or over a telephone.
 And remeber that in WWI people went to jail as sympathizers; in WWII they were
 held for psychiatric observation. So different times, different weapons to
 help ensure secrecy of R&D - different in degree rather than kind.
   While it is difficult to find material that meets the academic standard for
 source documents (primary, secondary, etc.), there is a wealth of information
 out there from Yardley's _The Black Chamber_ to Volkman and Baggett's _Secret
 Intelligence_ (Which has an ... interesting ... bibliography). Most of these
 books and documents look at intel rather than "technological secrets." In
 passing, some technological information is mentioned - and with the exception
 of the Manhattan Project, there appears to be little or no difference between
 any of the security measures used to protect the various "types" of "secrets."

   An aside: My earlier quote was from John Stuart Mill - and passed through
 the intestinal tracts of several editors....

 |---------------|  I slept and dreamed that life was beauty;
 |Jim Emmons     |  I woke and found that life was duty.
 |<icjme@asuacad>|                   Ellen Sturgis Hooper
 |---------------|
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Date:         Mon, 7 Sep 1992 00:29:00 EST
From:         YONI@BROWNCOG.BITNET
Subject:      Re: ideological inquisitions

Ideological inquisitions sure sound like a volatile subject on this list. But
it does raise an interesting point concerning the frame of reference of
history. I remember my old Western-Civ class from high-school. The teacher
was an older fellow with a long white beard and had a throttle engine in his
voice. "Never rely on just the textbook. It's told by a couple of historians
from their perspective. WHen doing research you must get many sources and weed
out the facts." This frightened me when I pondered upon the thought of
the textbooks being inaccurate. But while frame of reference might interefere
with the accuracy of some articles, we cannot accuse the author of his
reporting. But there is no harm in asking him/her to reassure us of the clarity
of the article.
lwyb
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Date:         Sun, 6 Sep 1992 23:30:06 BST
From:         Christopher Currie <c.currie@CLUS1.ULCC.AC.UK>
Subject:      Re: Bologna AHC conference

>
>
> I have been keeping quiet for a while, because I was on the anual conference

Anual, George? As Sir W. Churchill is supposed to have said of Sir Clive
Bossom, 'Humph. Neither one thing nor the other'.

Thanks for the rest of the post, which I have saved.

Christopher
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Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 13:09:00 EDT
From:         JOSE@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: The food supply of Tenochtitlan.

On Thu, 10 Sep 1992 16:24:13 EDT Jim Cocks <JACOCK01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU> said
:
> >Not only is land transport more expensive, but the Mayas, Aztecs, Incas, etc.
,
> >had no suitable beasts of burden with which to pull wheeled carts.  The
> >articles I have read emphasize this as a reason for not wasting time with
> >wheels and such.
>
>  Ken Koester makes a very good point.  I would additionaly add the
>  investment in road building that the wheel requires.  Especially
>  in these areas.
>
>  Jim Cocks


The lack of beasts of burden is a good point up to a point and the
question of terrain was surely a factor in some places, though not
along the Peruvian coast, for example, and not in the northern
Yucatan nor within the Valley of Mexico.  As to cost, considering
the investments made in other types of mass construction projects
among the high precolumbian civilizations, I wonder if that would
stop them if they really wanted to use wheeled vehicles over some
type of road or prepared surface.  In some places they built
lengthy causeways even without such vehicles.  But, and here I return
to my first sentence, why did they not use humans to pull wheeled carts
or something comparable?  Lots of societies have in the past and
still do.

Joe Arbena
Clemson U.
From: c.currie@CLUS1.ULCC.AC.UK (Christopher Currie)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Subject: Re: The advent of "technological secrecy"
Date: 11 Sep 92 23:00:31 GMT
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>      (the Luftwaffe failed to
>     develop a strategic bombing strategy).

What!!!!  That's news  to us Londoners.

Christopher
From: FOXS@AXE.HUMBOLDT.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Subject: Re: Churchill's Plot to Get the U.S into WWII
Date: 13 Sep 92 16:58:00 GMT
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X-VMS-To: IN%"HISTORY@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu"
Comments: To: HISTORY@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu

I don't have my bibliographies in front of me at the moment, but there is
a new book out, the thesis of which is that the British in Hong Kong had
broken the Japanese Naval Code (the US only could read the diplomatic
code), and knew what was up.  The co-authors, one of whom was in the
British Navy at the time and had personal experience with the Imperial
Japanese Navy, his name in NAVE, don't have a "smoking gun" that proves
conclusively that Churchill knew and didn't tell FDR, but they say they
can't "imagine" that he did not.  I can give you a specific rerference
-Steve Fox-
History Department
Humboldt State University
Arcata, CA  95521
(707) 826-4788
Internet:  foxs@axe.humboldt.edu
tomorrow if someone else hasn't in the meantime.
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Date:         Sun, 6 Sep 1992 21:30:00 EST
From:         YONI@BROWNCOG.BITNET
Subject:      Re: NATIONALLY TELEVISED ADDRESS,
              NICE WORK IF YOU CAN GET IT DAY, TO THE ARMENIAN, GEORGIAN,
              ABKHAZIAN, AND MISCELLANEOUS MASSES

I would like to know more about this interesting posting feud between Kruchio
and Foss. (or is it a feud.) Also, I believe earlier there was another interest-
ing message lamenting over the length and boringness of certain posts. Fill me
in on this.

Yoni@Browncog
Yoni
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Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 15:12:27 EDT
From:         "Daniel A. Foss" <DFOSS@CCVM.SUNYSB.EDU>
Subject:      if you get a notathreat

Anyone who gets a notathreat from me and believes I am going to go to all
the trouble implied is as nuts as I was Fri, 13 Mar 92 05:41:52 EST, when I
sent a file I have regretted ever since. I didn't have to go to any trouble
at all to find this particular shameful document, actually fell over it,
rather, fell over a shopping bag full of dead cellulose parked in the vicinity
of the part of the floor I read on, all other surfaces long since covered with
printed matter.

My policy is, anyone who would take a "notathreat" seriously deserves what they
do to themselves.

Sincerely,
Daniel A. Foss
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Date:         Wed, 9 Sep 1992 10:50:05 BST
From:         Christopher Currie <c.currie@CLUS1.ULCC.AC.UK>
Subject:      Re: Oldest City in North America?

>
>
> Since the original poster narrowed the question to cities still in
> existence, I think Taos Pueblo might qualify.  As a side note, Cahokia
> (Illinois), had - in the 13th century - a population greate than
> Paris.
>
I find this hard to believe. Estimates of the pop. of Paris in 1300 range
up to 250,000. How large an area did Cahokia cover and how is the population
estimated?

Christopher
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