From: mlee@post.RoyalRoads.ca (Malcolm Lee)
Subject: Re: Why? (was Re: THE MIND OF THE BIBLE BELIEVER)
Organization: Royal Roads Military College, Victoria, B.C.
Distribution: world,public
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 18:34:13 GMT


In article <C0I3v7.82E@acsu.buffalo.edu>, v22964qs@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Mike Cluff) writes:
|> In article <1993Jan7.174800.9003@ra.royalroads.ca>, mlee@post.RoyalRoads.ca (Malcolm Lee) writes...
|> 
|> >Without free will, we are just robots.  God already has the angels to do His
|> >every whim.  God intended much more for us.  We were meant to be His companions
|> >for eternity.  Could you live an eternity with someone who didn't want to be
|> >with you?  He wanted [here my editor truncated the rest -- please use carriage
|>  returns]
|> 
|> I don't think you're getting my point.  Imagine that you're God and that you're
|> about to create the universe.  Now assume that "we were meant to be his
|> companions" as you claim above.  Then why didn't he create only those who would
|> eventually "choose" to worship him with their Free Will?  If you take your
Create only those who would choose Him?  That's what the angels are, more or less,
servants created to do His will unquestioningly.  The angels were given one
chance to choose and a third of them followed Satan.  We, on the other hand, have
many opportunities to accept/reject God in the indeterminate span of our life
time.  We were put on this earth to learn as well.  He did not prepackage us 
saying that these 100 people I will make "saved" and these 1000 will be "unsaved".
He said "I will make these 1100 people and they will make their own choice".  God
being who is can look into the future and see who will be saved and not.


|> argument from a perspective of a potentially un-saved person, you just might 
|> see this as unfair.  After all this God created us with a basically sensory/
|> rational nature, and then supposedly appeals to us in nonsensory/nonrational
|> ways.  From that perspective the whole thing seems like a cruel test.  "I'm 
|> going to hide from you and them condemn you if you shun your senses and 
|> accept me!"  Besides, if our souls do lie in the balance, why doesn't he 
|> simply appeal to our senses?  Instead, this God sounds more like a child 
|> rapping the glass of an ant farm to see which way they scurry.
|>
Appeal to our senses?  God is all around us.  His handiwork is all the physical
things we see, hear, feel and touch all around us.  Man cannot even begin to 
comprehend the physical bonds that make us what we are.  God has breathed life
into each and everyone of us and lives in each and every one of us.  God is not
hiding.  Some of us choose not to see Him. 

 
|> >I don't think that it's so hard for people to believe that there is a God out
|> >there who is loving and willing to accept them into Heaven.  Truth is, I think
|> >people DON'T WANT to believe that there is a God.  
|> 
|> My usual reaction to this claim is "speak for yourself."  How could you even 
|> possibly know what I want?  I have wanted and prayed and even deluded myself
|> in order to maintain a belief in God.  After several years, I realized how much
|> mental and emotional effort I was going through to try to believe in God 
|> against any evidence (not "proof" as much as evidence).  
|>
I was voicing my own opinion, if you'll read more carefully what I wrote.

 
|> Also realize that the "you don't believe in God because you don't WANT to" is
|> a double-edged sword, as the opposite could also be claimed to be true.  
|> 
|> >The ramifications of the
|> >existence of an omniscient being are beyond what most people are willing to
|> >accept.  
|>
Wanting something is not the same as having it.  Maybe I did want to believe in
a God when I was a non-believer, but the God I received was hardly anyone like
what I expected.  He blew me away.  I was so overwhelmed that He, the Creator,
would love me so much.

  
|> >Anyone can be humble.  For a Christian, it is a prerequisite.
|> 
|> Frankly, many Christians I've known weren't humble in the least.  Not only that,
|> I've seen many use it as a weapon -- "See, look how humble and virtuous I am!"
|> without realizing that claiming humbleness requires a lack of humbleness.  
|> 
|> ******************************************************************************
|> For God so loved the world that He gave Man Free Will and then got pissed when
|> we didn't meet his arbitrary standards.  Oh, and he had his Son offed when he
|> realized how impossible those standards were.  -- Michael 4:23
|> ******************************************************************************
Then there are many people who say they are Christians but do not act accordingly.
I'm referring to the Swaggarts and Bakkers of this world.  We call them 
"false prophets" which the Bible predicted 2000 years ago.  If someone calls
himself Christian but continues to sin without remorse, then obviously, he isn't
what he says he is.  Regardless of what title a person may wear, the Christian
is dedicated to helping them all the same, without passing judgement.  Final
judgement rests with Him who is worthy to judge.  I am a sinner.  I am hardly
worthy to judge another and I try not to.  

Thank you for your response.

God loves, Man kills.