From: poser@vxdsyc.desy.de (Till Poser  -  ZEUS OFFLINE)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.german
Subject: ... so lets resort to our handy encaeclopedia...
Summary: The Waffen-SS from the Dictionary/Textbook perspective
Date: 21 Jan 93 18:30:36 GMT
Reply-To: Poser@vxdsyc.desy.de
Followup-To: soc.culture.german
Organization: Deutsches Elektronen Synchrotron, Experiment ZEUS bei HERA

In article <1993Jan20.224230.21544@Princeton.EDU>, roger@crux.Princeton.EDU
(Roger Lustig) writes:

green@island.COM    > Who gives a damn? My point was that SS membership was 
                      *voluntary*.

lilly@nhmfl.fsu.edu >As far as I know, this is not generally true. 


|>Actually, it *was* more or less voluntary; moreover, those who did not 
|>want to take part in the mass killings were not forced to continue.

Let's get some facts into the debate:

Sources: Brockhaus Enzaeklopaedie
         Encaeclopaedia Brittannica
         Der Zweite Weltkrieg, P.Ruge et. al.
         The History of the Second World War, Sir Basil Lidell Hart
         "Die Zeit" 2/93, Zeitlaeufe (about the 2. Hungarian Army)

The Waffen-SS was an independended military organisation under the control of
the SS proper, which formed an additional service branch along the 3 normal
branches of the Wehrmacht.

It was created in 1939/40 out of the SS-Verfuegungstruppe, most of the 
SS-Totenkopf-Verbaende (which remained what they were in this structure,
KZ-guards, extermination troops, wholesale murderers), as well as volunteers, 
especially non-German nationals (note: All non-German troops that were _not_ 
part of the national contingents within the command structure of the Wehrmacht 
such as the Spanish "Blue Division", the Italian 8th Army, the Hungarian 2nd 
Army and the Rumanian and Bulgarian national forces, did indeed serve 
as Waffen-SS troops. All together there were about 300.000 non-German 
nationals mostly serving on the Eastfront. It is ironic to note that one of 
the stiffest opposition that Shukov's Front faced at the Battle of Berlin in 
'45 was put up by the SS-Division "Wallonie", that consisted of Belgian 
fascists under their leader Degrelle.).

It grew in numbers from ~100.000 in mid '40 to ~910.000 at the end of '44
(what with the recorded attrition rate that implies that ~1.4-1.6 million 
people altogether have been part of it). Since the beginning of '43 people 
were, too, conscripted into the Waffen-SS. In fact, when the tide was at 
Full Ebb in the latter half of '44, whole Wehrmacht units, up to the 
regiment level, were redesignated SS-units. A notable part of the two 
SS-Panzer-Armies that were used up in the Ardennes offensive had been scraped
up that way.

The Waffen-SS cooperated tactically with the Heer (army), but always remained
part of the SS organisational structure. It didn't have a General Staff of 
it's own (thus remained under the aegis of the OKW), but furnished command
officers for every higher field echelon, up to the Army and Heeresgruppen 
level. The Waffen-SS was considered, during the war, by the Allies to be a
very tough, highly fanatical, very capable and, especially in the East, 
ofttimes brutal elite fighting force. 

Every member of the Waffen-SS had to swear a personal oath of loyalty to
Hitler himself.

===
So where do we stand?

o A (large) number of the Waffen-SS members were volunteers

o A number of them were brutal butchers and criminals

o A (sizable) number of them were conscriped, i.e. not voluntary, especially 
  towards the end.

o A (large) number of them were were primarily used as elite field troops.

o Every member was personally pledged to Hitler.

Of course, all those sets have a very high degree of overlap. It is, however,
unwise to actually brand a person a criminal, murderer or whatnot merely on 
the basis of a Waffen-SS membership and no other corroborating fact. I do
however understand anyone who contends that this is ample grounds for 
suspicion as to his conduct, record or motives.

Fair enough?

|>But that's not the point.  The point is that the SS didn't advertise itself
|>as a criminal organization, nor was there any other way for recruits to
|>know that they would later be asked to do evil things.  

That is correct, but a little disingenuous, Roger. A number of the 
_volunteers_, however, specifically those for officerhood, had been raised 
in the Spirit of National Socialism and had gone through Hitler Youth, 
Napola and the Ordensburgen, where they had been amply instructed and 
indoctrinated as to their proper duties as Germans, "Herrenmenschen" and
National Socialists. 

Those people _did_ read Mein Kampf and they _did_ receive Alfred Rosenberg's 
ideology lessons so they _did_ have the opportunity to have much more of an
insight as to the consequences. I conceed that those that I describe were 
misguided, conditioned, indoctrinated, fanaticised and so forth, but that 
has never been any excuse. I do question the motives and the perception of 
any volunteers.

Others of course have been captioned by the cleverly projected image of
flash, bravado and deeds of derring-do, that was part of the SS propaganda,
and of course the snazzy wicked black-n-silver dress uniform. Feh!

|>                                                       The Nazis knew 
|>that most Germans would not want to hear of atrocities, and therefore
|>did not publicize them.

Correct. 

|>I mean, the US Army didn't advertise the opportunity to take part in a
|>Wounded Knee or My Lai, either.

I question Your use of My Lai here. It has to be remembered that My Lai was
_not_ carried out as part of the operational policies of the US Army and was 
flagrantly contravening laws, regualtions, policies and orders. If You
want to use a viable example from the Vietnam war, take Operation Phoenix.
Or leave that war out of the picture altogether, except as an example for the 
disquieting fact that _all_ soldiers are potential murderers.

|>Roger

Now back to our regularly scheduled flame-fest...

       Till Poser         Internet: poser@vxdsyc.desy.de
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