From: bobsarv@microsoft.com (Bob Sarver)
Subject: Re: Gay Homophobia (was Re: Too straight looking to be gay???) (was re: UNGAY GAY)
Date: 20 Aug 92 00:53:50 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corp.


(dyer)
/ Listen, you seem to be rather oblivious to the fear and loathing
/ in your articles.  Probably you should try to work this out with the
/ help of a good, sympathetic therapist.  

Yeah, the old "therapist" line again.  You folks really lean on this
one when you're out of ideas, don't you?  


(dyer)
/ OK, Mary, what do you have to say that's new?  Nothing.

Simple test (even for you).

1.  T/F  Members of an oppressed minority group who willingly act 
         out negative stereotypes advance the cause of their group's 
         acceptance in society.

2.  T/F  Bizarre behavior is a effective recruiting tactic to get
         invisible members of a oppressed minority group to become 
         more visible.

3.  T/F  Sometimes members of a minority group will act in personally
         selfish ways which hurt the overall group goals.

4.  T/F  When a group shows a chronic unwillingness to submit its beliefs
         to examination, testing, or debate, said group is most likely
         a religion and not a political movement.



(dyer)
/My God, the stupidity here.  It leaves you speechless.

(Heh)
Not *you*, anyhow.


(dyer)
/I mean, who cares?  Let these creeps fuck their buddies
/after they get drunk.  No one owes them a life.

Do you want them to join you, or not?
Is the ability to do drag more important that political and social
progress?



(dyer)
/What the _fuck_ do you mean "people like you"?   And what "precedents"
/are you referring to?

Precedents?
What positive gay role models (or public figures) do we know about?
There are a lot more now (due to AIDS, mostly), but really, considering
how large a community we are, we have a blight of positive models.
How many bad models / public figures do we have?  A hell of a lot more.



(me)
    >If all the prominent left-handed people I knew dyed their hair green and 
    >set their clothes on fire, I would probably stay a closet left-hander, too.

(dyer)
/Talk about stating the obvious.

If you understand the concept, what malfunction prevents you from extending
the principle to gays?  How come it works with one, and not with the
other?  For something so "obvious", you are having a hell of a time
seeing how it might apply to *you* or Arne.  Is there a little hypocrisy
here?


(dyer)
/I didn't know that leather parades were designed to foster "gay
/acceptance" (something you're sorely lacking in, I might add.)

You're right.  I don't accept that leather parades are indicative
of the gay community.


(dyer)
/And I am sure that the last thing on a drag queen's mind is
/furthering the cause of "gay acceptance."

Perhaps it should be on their mind.  I thought it was an important
cause; obviously you think otherwise.



    >Why?  Because he was nonthreatening, calm, reasonable, and firmly
    >believed in his rights as an individual.  People across America
    >looked at Thorne and said, "My god, he looks just like my son / my
    >neighbor / my friend."  It made America sit up and take notice.
    >Same for Col. Kammemyer; another bright, hardworking individual who
    >stated her case with conviction and calm assurance that she was
    >in the right.

(dyer)
/Frankly, I'll take both of those two over the likes of you.

I doubt that either one would find much in common with *you*.

I also note that you skipped over the point I made:  their normality
made them great role models and spokespeople.  And made them
*real* to the average American.  



(dyer)
/Honey-bun, it's the closeted gayboys who are not taking responsibility
/for their own actions, pretending to blame someone else for their wretched
/lives.  

Hardly.  If the goal is gay acceptance and political rights, then 
what the fringe is doing is sabotaging that.

On the other hand, if the goal is strutting like a bunch of chorus girls
and fighting for an audience, I guess they're pretty effective . . .



(dyer)
/Arne and the rest of us are doing just fine.  Now shoo, shoo
/until you learn some manners and some logic.

I could *teach* you logic.  As for manners, you & Arne receive more than
either or you merit.  

Amazing.  You and Arne both deal with opposition in the same way.
Ignore it and tell it to go away.  Life must be simple for the two
of you; accept what you already agree with and tell the disturbing
facts to vanish.  


Newsgroups: soc.motss