From: rsrodger@wam.umd.edu (Yamanari)
Subject: Re: Torture and the mind: _Star Trek_ vs. _1984_. 
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 01:59:48 GMT

In article <1993Jan2.184617.9831@ac.dal.ca> hartigan@ac.dal.ca writes:
>In article <1993Jan2.044524.6235@wam.umd.edu>, rsrodger@wam.umd.edu (Yamanari) writes:
>> 
>> 	I would tend to agree with this comment.  Orwell, clearly, 
>> 	felt that the idea that there wassome holy conciousness
>> 	that was seperate from environment, physical experiance,
>> 	was wrong.  One of his points in 1984 is that a person
>> 	is purely the product of his environment, and when that
>> 	environment changes, so will that person.
>
>I think he would acknowledge that individual temperament, which likely
>has a genetic basis, are part of a person's make-up, too. For example,
>Winston Smith is exceptional in his hatred for Big Brother, although
>his environment is much the same as all the other citizens of Oceania.


	You might be right, but maybe not.  There will always be
	drop-out's in society.  Whether this is a great stand for
	individualism is nt really clear, though.  Me, I think Orwell
	intended to show that Winston was simply improperly 
	trained, or that social training was not *quite* enough to 
	make people endure constant hell.  After all, some of the 
	pro-big-brotherites also were in prison.  And Winston felt
	that his friend, the guy working on Newspeak, would end up 
	in prison for being too sharp.  That is, Big Brother wanted
	conformation to an extreme that was just a little bit more
	than humanity could provide.  If this says anything about
	individualism, it's pretty minor.


  
>>>The other interesting point is that in actuality, Orwell turns out to
>>>be right. Skilled interrogators armed with the latest technology are
>>>in fact irresistable, I am assured by a local member of Amnesty 
>>>International. The vision of humanity espoused by STTNG turns out
>>>to be false. Some people take longer than others to break, but
>> 
>> 	In the end of theepisode, Picard confesses that he saw five.
>> 	(I think--I wasn't really paying attention--I got tired of the
>> 	1984-watered-down rip off of a "plot".. Pain aint all there is 
>> 	to it..) 
>
>Actually, he never confesses to the Kardassians that he saw five, even though
>he did. He remains defiant _even though_ the Kardassians have distorted
>his perceptions in a way similar to the way O'Brien renders Winston
>Smith unable to tell whether or not he was holding up 4 or 5 fingers.


	Picard confesses to Troi at the end of the episode after
	being returned to the enterprise.


>Agreed, though -- there is more to the whole business than pain. I am
>not a STTNG fan, so I wasn't disappointed by the somewhat cheesy
>handling of this whole business. Too bad...they could do some
>interesting stuff with that show if they'd use their noggins a little.


	I like the show, even if I constantly wince at the factual errors
	and buzzwords they are constantly using.  ("Oh no, we ran into a 
	cosmic string!".. A "blockade" in space, for chrissakes..) 


>> 	I'm sure, had Orwell lived to see modern drugs and the
>        in the novel.
>
>Do you know much about this? I've read about the effects of the 
>sensory-deprivation chamber, and a little about modern interrogation
>drugs, but I'd be fascinated to hear what you know.


	I do not know much about drugs or the sensory depriv chamber, 
	other than a very brief chance I got to try one.  It took maybe
	an hour of real hard-core boredom before I started to feel
	kind of funny.  About then, I got scared and wanted out 
	very, very much.  Imagine if you simply awoke from unconciousness,
	with no knowledge of how much time had passed, in this 
	scentless, feelingless (not quite), soundless (not quite) hell. 
	I've read a few accounts of people who thought that they had died 
	while in the chamber, because they were not ready for what it 
	offered.  With easy terror like that, and a few drugs, I don't
	imagine you'd have to use any brutal means at all.  Electric
	shock is pretty good too--I *have* read a number of accounts
	of medical patients who used to go through multiple electric
	shock therapy sessions.  The mind is pretty pliable, supposedly.

	And then there's surgery.  Suppose you hooked up a wire to someone's
	pleasure center.  You could program them that way.




-- 
	Blaming "society" for your problems is like blaming clouds for rain.
         ---  boycott == censorship == closed mindedness == cowardice  ---
	      "Psalms 23:1  The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want."  
		Shepherds are for sheep.   -----      Pain teaches.