From: glenne@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Neuromancer )
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy
Subject: Re: Explaining anarchy to your friends?
Date: 13 Nov 1992 20:46:20 GMT
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.4

singram@eng.auburn.edu (Scott Ingram) writes:
 
>Yes. I relaized that when I started thinking about it. I think that fear,
>primarily the fear of death (the greatest unknown), is what causes people to
>hold on to a lot of their beliefs. Without the fear of death, one can rationally
>view the world. With a fear of death, you immediately value yourself (or family,
>or whatever) more than you value others. Once you realize that everyone
>MUST be equal, it becomes easier to grasp the concept.
 
Yep, no fear.  My ma chasing me around with the butcher knife was what
did it for me.  Something just snapped, and I quit fearing death.
When that happened, all sorts of changes started taking place.  I
rember a sound bite on a PBS show, something about how when people
are moved by fear that logical behavior ceases.  Witch hunts are an
example of this.
 
>>The other position, is pure anarchy.  Pure selflessness in the name
>>of freedom.    Freedom makes right.  So far I know of two takers of
>>this position.  You and I.
 
>There is at least one other. My ex-roomate was the guy who got me thinking
>about `our' form of anarchy. We were having a philosophical debate and a
>point came up as to when it was ok to kill someone, and he said `never'.
>This got us thinking `what about self-defense' and the debate quickly changed
>to one over `rights' you have. I started thinking and within the next
>month my philosophy had changed to accept this as what was correct, what
>was the ONLY thing that could be correct. If you are not willing to give
>complete freedom to everyone, then you can never have that same freedom
>yourself.  So now I live my life giving people their freedom, but not
>having my own. Sometimes it sucks, but I know what I am doing is right.
 
Just a question or two here, is other position the position that your
friend held?  Is this position based on "rights" ?  I tend to lump a
rights position in with the middle of the road position, which when
you boil it down degenerates into might makes "rights".  I believe
rights lead to contradiction.  Because if someone violates your
"rights" you seek justice, and so arises the motto 'with Liberty
and Justice for all.'  To me this motto is a complete joke.  The more
liberty you give to people, the less justice you will obtain.  You
can't have both at the same time.  For me justice is a concept that
should be thrown out the window altogether.  I think there is a
continuum that describes an individual's approach to life:
 
Pure
Selfishness               Justice                     Liberty
 
<---low quality...............................high quality--->
<--high violence and coercion.....low violence and coercion-->
<---pure competition......................pure cooperation--->
 
 
>Yes, with humanities current system of values, might makes right when
>you try to hurt me. We let might make right in a `second case', where
>if you use might against someone, that is wrong, so they are
>free to use it against you. This is logical? No, but then again,
>neither are humans.
Yep and when people do this, they will talk about stuff like rights and
justice.
 
>Thanks for snapping that back into perspective. I currently am `alienating
>myself' from my `friends'. Lets just say my social life is going to hell,
>and I'm encouraging it. My friends have `gotten sick of my shit' and are
>`tired of being patient with me'... as I have been very withdrawn these last
>several days. But the thing is, I don't relate to any of them, so my
>withdrawal isn't bothering ME, but the fact that they are upset does.
 
Heh, the last time I did anything with one of my friends was to see
the movie 'Kafka'.  That was in spring.  However, I do spend a lot of
time with my SO.  At this point in time, she is one of the very few
people that I feel a real fondness for.  We cannot relate on an
intellectual level, but simply because she has no use at all for
thinking about life, and this makes it POSSIBLE for us to relate.
She is a very private and independent person, distanced from
her own emotions, and therefore does not feel threatened by my distance.
To other people, my views would be something they could not live with,
to her they do not matter.  Somehow we do not need understanding.
Somehow trust has been able to overcome that barrier.  I am very
glad of the trust I have been able to build with her.  It took a
lot of time, the right person (meaning we had compatible emotional
needs), and just hangin' in there.
 
However, up to this point, I have had to live completely unable to
share my awareness with anyone else.  These conversations have helped
to fill in the pieces.
 
>Yes. Last night was a prime example. I pissed off my best friend's SO by
>being very `disrespectful' (I truly did not know that I had done this)
>and we proceeded to have a 3-hour conversation as to WHY I was `abandoning'
>my friends. They had noticed that I was no longer social at all, and was`
>more self-absorbed than usual, paying them NO attention whatsoever.
 
>We proceeded to get into a very vocal argument over what I was doing, and
>how I was being a selfish bastard. The problem with the argument... I was
>agreeing that I was being a selfish bastard, was in fact encouraging
>myself to be one. I need to get myself distanced from people right now,
>as in more distanced than normal. They can't understand this. When
>I tried to explain to the SO why I couldn't relate to people, I got
>a blank look. So then I said, OK, I'll try this... and proceeded
>to explain anarchy, my morality, my philosophy, what was important to
>me, what made me tick, and what I would do in certain situations.
>After explaining all this, with as much caring and effort as I could muster,
>I got a very awkward silence and then a half-hearted attempt at asking me why
>I felt the way I did. The SO then proceeded to say `I'm sorry, I just
>don't get it.'
 
>Nothing like baring your soul and getting it stepped on. And the bad thing is
>it wasn't malicious. Just a blatant inability to understand me, even
>after my best effort. So then I had ammunition for why I was cutting myself off
>(and reason to use it) and proceeded to slam these people, my `friends' with
>why I distance myself. I open up to people, and it hurts to not be understood.
 
>By cutting myself off I am protecting myself from that pain, which is something
>that I need right now. But they still didn't understand even that.
 
I know the feeling all too well.  Aquaintences will come in and shoot
the shit with a co-worker, and as on the previous letter I wrote you, I
will continue to type away paying them no heed.  My silence disturbs
them.  It's like I really am some sort of alien from outer space.  Every
once in a while, I can hear thier conversation in the background,
although I am not actively listening.  They say things to try to get me
involved in the conversation.  Sometimes they will theorize about why
I am ignoring them, rather loudly.  Most of the theories they offer
are wrong.  I continue typing, feeling no need to correct them.  And
so it goes.  Another example, my SO unexpectedly invites her mother
along to cook some supper with us.  I make no effort to conceal the
lack of enthusiasm I feel at having her join us.  They picked up on this
and my SO starts screaming and crying at me.  Her mother seems hurt,
but masks her emotions.  Again I am the alien.   There are countless
other minor situations that have happened that I have mostly forgotten,
just like the birthday presents I didn't buy, the going away party
for the guy named Mike tonight that I'm not attending,  the preferring
to take the bus rather than get a ride.  Hell there have been many
times where even on the bus, friends see me get on, they either smile,
or pick up their stuff so I can sit next to them, and I walk right on
past and sit in the back.   You'd be amazed at how many times they
will continue to do this.  Ack.  I can remember the pain, when I
saw the hurt on thier face.  They just didn't understand my need
to be alone.  I didn't want to hurt anyone,  I just needed to be
alone.  Explaining it to them does no good.  It usually just
prolongs the pain.  But its all the same theme.  One time, my
'friends' made the mistake of coming over and picking me up even
though I told them NO.  I made no attempt to hide my lack of
enthusiasm.  Boy were they sorry they strong armed me into going
along.
 
But perhaps neither of us truly lives the life of no fear, for while
we do not fear death, emotional pain seems to be something that we
still fear.  Again, there is no blame or fault to be associated with
emotional pain, it is simply a consequence of interaction with other
people.  Again, we need not fear it, just simply accept it, like death.
At this point I am just having a real hard time dealing with other
people's "expectations" of me.  It's easier just to avoid people
altogether than having to deal with their expectations.   Just like
the people I met at the Mennonite Church I had been attending.   It
was cool at first, but then I could feel thier expectations growing
for me, that they expected me to be some one who would be there every
Sunday, and be an integral member of thier congregation.  I haven't
attended since.   I'll probably go back there, but again, explaining
to them more than likely will do no good.
 
It's just so damn wierd why people find it impossible to accept us
as we are and leave it at that.  By expressing what I really feel
or don't feel,  I seem to piss people off to the point where they
build up a grudge against me, and this grudge is even harder to
overcome.  It's like I just want to say, take it light, it's nothing
personal, you just have to accept me as I am.  But there are so few
people who can do that.  No, instead they mask their feelings and
build up grudges. And like what you said, it's impossible to explain
to them what's going on.  They can't even begin to conceive of it.
 
Again, maybe the key is not to work toward an understanding with
other people, that has had zero success for me in the past.  I think
the key for us to find working friendships is to build them on a
long developed trust.  It's just that damnit, I wish there could
be a mutual understanding.  That is what I have been searching for,
friends who can understand, better yet, let's hope for the impossible,
maybe even relate!   I know that if I could relate to people, (which
means they wouldn't lay all thier expectations on me), I wouldn't need
all this time alone.
 
Well met, net-friend.  I apologize for all this incoherent rambling,
it just seems like you opened up a dam and the words kept on flowing.
 
Glenn                                        glenne@csd4.csd.uwm.edu