HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tolman%asylum.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Kenneth Tolman)
Subject: Unpredictable economics (the heart of the matter)
Date: 18 Nov 92 12:22:35 MST
Organization: University of Utah, CompSci Dept


   Any economic system is going to undergo unpredictable evolution.  
Unfortunately classical economics largely ignores this reality because
of its unsettling implications for economic predictions as a whole.  The
result is that our country (with classical economists behind the scenes)
makes poor economic long term decisions, namely with a laissez faire approach
to high technology.

  An economy with two or more competing businesses may fall into a 
self amplifying cycle where one business dominates over the other. For
example, in the personal computer market a buyer is more likely to buy
a machine that has lots of software and that is compatible with the
machines he already owns, EVEN if this computer is slightly inferior
(in price or quality) to another competitor.  Thus in the beginning of
the competition, one of the two businesses will luckily have more
software written for it, and then a self amplifying chain begins.  More
buyers will buy this machine, and then more software is written for it,
and so forth until this machine comes to dominate the market.  The
economy suffers a lock in from increasing returns.  The economy settles
into a state of affairs which is not necessarily optimal!

  Our government makes economic decisions based on the classical approach
of economics: every person purchasing freely within a market will lead
to the optimal growth of the system as a whole.  Thus the government is
unwilling to "pick favorites" and help out any special industries even
when these same technologies will be the economic foundations for the
future of our country.  The result is that there is a non optimal state
of affairs which the country will tend... we move continuously out of
high technology and into the service area.  Other countries are effectively
investing and researching high technology which give them increasing returns
on high tech markets, which locks the United States out!

  Economics needs to incorporate the realities of increasing returns and
inherint unpredictability.  The decisions of our government should reflect
these economic realities, and support high technology through tax breaks
and economic leverage.  Currently we are living in the dark and making
poor economic decisions which will leave us sucking our thumbs.





Newsgroups: sci.econ
From: janm@syma.sussex.ac.uk (Jan Metzger)
Newsgroups: sci.econ
Subject: consumer electronics
Keywords: europe
Date: 19 Nov 92 18:35:14 GMT
Distribution: eunet
Organization: University of Sussex

Looking for some information on TV prices in Europe (France mainly) for a
project for the European Community. Shop keepers unwilling to help because of
too many market research phone calls. Cannot afford the time and money to go
abroad. Help ! Need prices at your local shop of a basic TV set : remote
control, colour, no teletext, 34/36 cm screen. Any model, just need model
number, brand and the name of the shop and price !!! Has anybody got any
suggestion on how to get prices otherwise ?
From: ss9o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Stephen Sorensen)
Newsgroups: sci.econ
Subject: Re: The Lawnmower Strategy
Date: 23 Nov 92 07:05:29 GMT
Article-I.D.: andrew.Ef4ExNm00WBN43DcsD
Organization: Masters student, Urban and Public Affairs, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

Excerpts from netnews.sci.econ: 22-Nov-92 The Lawnmower Strategy by
Broward C. Horne@idbsu.i 
>    i)    The Federal Lawnmower is being gassed up.
>    ii)   New taxes are coming for dinner.
>    iii)  Your Congress is out to lunch.
>    iv)   Your standard of living is on the menu.

Maybe this should be posted to netnews.mixed.metaphors. :-)

-Steve
From: demon@desire.wright.edu (Stupendous Man)
Newsgroups: sci.econ
Subject: Air travel, PATCO, etc.
Date: 18 Nov 92 11:05:01 EST
Organization: Demonic Possesions, Inc.

In article <1992Nov16.091254.9140@edinboro.edu>, s462075d@edinboro.edu writes:
> In article <BxBB3z.J7y@apollo.hp.com>, nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson) writes:
>> In article <geujWi_00Uh7A2F1Em@andrew.cmu.edu> jw59+@andrew.cmu.edu (Jason Webb) writes:
>>>Excerpts from netnews.sci.econ: 25-Oct-92 Re:Osha,and other regulatio..
>>>by Ronda Hauben@cleveland.F 
>>>> The deregulatory fever in the U.S. -beginning under Carter with the 
>>>> U.S. airlines industry - has resulted in fewer airlines - higher
>>>> prices, more plane crashes, etc.
>> 
>>   This is absolute nonsense.  I'm a fairly frequent flier and I have
>>   no doubt the prices *I* pay are lower than before deregulation.
>>   As for plane crashes, I would *love* to see the documentation
>>   on that one -- plane crashes and fatalities in the US have 
>>   been dropping steadily since deregulation, despite the fact that
>>   the volume of air traffic has increased dramatically during that
>>   time.
>> 
>>   Methinks Ms. Hauben must be a nervous flier.
>
> Let's not forget that many crashes were probably the result, directly or
> indirectly, of Mr. Reagan's firing of the air traffic contrtolers.

	We eagerly await your figures.
:)

	BTW-those controllers deserved to be fired.  Reagan did a good job
there.
                                       
Brett
===============================================================================
80s: 18 million new jobs, deficits down (%GNP), tax rates down, tax revenues up
GNP up, inflation down, unemployment down, interest rates down, cold war won
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: dmeyers@mal-s2.gatech.edu (Dave Meyers)
Newsgroups: sci.econ
Subject: Re: NO! Re: flat taxes - yes!!!
Keywords: flat tax
Date: 23 Nov 92 10:01:00 GMT
Organization: Georgia Tech Res. Inst./Modeling & Analysis Lab

In <37700@uflorida.cis.ufl.edu> jfh@beach.cis.ufl.edu (James F. Hranicky) writes:

>I was speaking, not with regards to recent trends, but with regards to the
>overall trend of our benevolent all-knowing government to continuously debase
>our unit of currency. Check the CPI from 1800 to present--you will see a
>strange jump after 1913, the year that the Federal Reserve was installed.
>Coincidence? Also, when Nixon took us off the international gold standard,
>you will see an even larger jump, otherwise known as "the stagflation of
>the 70's."

Yes.  Clearly the government's intervention can affect the CPI and
the money supply.

>A flat consumption tax is still, I think, the best system available, primarily
>because it does not tax *savings*. (Keynesians would hate this, I'm sure, since
>we all *know* that mass savings would send us straight into a *recession*!!--
>fools.)

Why would a flat consumption tax prevent the government from increasing
the money supply and effectivly raising prices and thus taxing
savings?  It seems that given a flat consumption tax, the
government has more incentive to do just that, as otherwise that
savings does go untaxed.  

I see no reason to think that this would be any better or any
worse under a flat income tax, which additionaly would not
need any balancing adjustment to account for different people's
spending or saving habits.  Just make sure that capital gains
and interest earned are counted in...

--D
-- 
+++ David S. Meyers (dmeyers@math.gatech.edu)  *** PGP key avail.! *** +++
From: demon@desire.wright.edu (Stupendous Man)
Newsgroups: sci.econ
Subject: Re: alt.politics.economics
Date: 19 Nov 92 13:42:16 EST
Organization: Demonic Possesions, Inc.

In article <1992Nov19.140935.8046@nntp.hut.fi>, jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala) writes:
> A group alt.politics.economics has been created.  It can be used for
> political discussions, perhaps to make this group devoted more to
> scientific discussions.
> 
> (I've not personally followed sci.econ but I've heard some complaints
> about political discussions).

	Gosh, I've "heard" there's an awful lot of politics going on in
alt.activism.  Perhaps you should create alt.poltics.activism.
:)

	But of course what would *I* know, I only *read* that group.
:\

Brett
===============================================================================
80s: 18 million new jobs, deficits down (%GNP), tax rates down, tax revenues up
GNP up, inflation down, unemployment down, interest rates down, cold war won
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: sci.econ
From: cmh004@cck.coventry.ac.uk (Dave)
Newsgroups: sci.econ
Subject: Re: NO! Re: flat taxes - yes!!!
Keywords: flat tax
Date: 17 Nov 92 21:26:52 GMT
Organization: Lanchester Polytechnic

In article <37628@uflorida.cis.ufl.edu> jfh@reef.cis.ufl.edu (James F. Hranicky) writes:
>How do you "force" compassion?---it may be compassion on your part, but 
>not necessarily theirs. It seems the number of "poor" keeps growing
>*because* of these wonderful programs. Why work or pay your way
>when you don't have to?

Giving money to the poor not compassion! When I hear of people who say
that there are people quite happy to stay on the dole (unemployed) that
makes me sick, because either the guy is in the poverty trap (where they
are better off on the social than working) or he is silly. What would
you prefer 30 pound a week income surport (lets say US$45) or 100 pound
a week job (lets say US$150)?????
I know what I would prefer.

>Nothing wrong with helping people, but do you really want them to get
>so comfortable in their poverty?--don't you want to keep some incentive
>to go out and get a job?

Haven't I given you a better incentive above? I can tell a lot more about
being unemployed - *I've been there*. You go around all bloody day with
FA to do except write letters which you know are fruitless, but try all the
same. OK you wake up at 11 in the morning, but what can you do???
Same everyday and you are bloody bored with nothing to do except hope.
There is also the feeling of rejection as well because you are unwanted.
I'll advocate progressive taxes mainly because when I was unemployed
every single penny meant somthing - now I can afford to give money away
as there is no tomorrow. I do not mind the goverment taking 30% of it away
because I know that there are people who *need* the cash and I hope that
should I lose my current job though no thought of my own then at least the
goverment will not tell me to F*** Off And Die.

>Jim Hranicky (jfh@reef.cis.ufl.edu)

I do not want to wish you ill, but should you end up with a six month
spell of unemployment I hope it will give you enough time to change
your views of people in poverty and progressive taxes.
-- 
Dave                                                       cmh004@cck.cov.ac.uk
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Call this place what you like - Coventry University, Coventry Polytechnic or
Lanchester Polytechnic it is all the same and is called school.
Newsgroups: sci.econ
From: kim_sh@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Sung Hyun Kim)
Subject: Re: SUMMARY: good econ texts
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 20:34:18 GMT

In article <1992Nov20.100018.1@vaxa.strath.ac.uk> ciar04@vaxa.strath.ac.uk writes:
>dbailey@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (David R. Bailey) writes:
>> Thanks to the many responders who suggested good introductory
>> economics books, preferably aimed at the mathematically prepared.
>> Here are the responses:
>> 
>[ List of Economic Text deleted ]
>
>I would like to Sargent's "Macroeconomic Theory" to the list.  It contains
>some very vigorous mathematical materials on macroeconomics.
>

Now I'm confused which level of "introductory" we are talking about.
If we can invoke Sargent or Varian, I will definitely recommend Kreps, A
Lecture on Microeconomic Theory (or is it Lectures...?) from Princeton U press.
Excellent exposition with enough mathematical stuffs mostly used by microeco-
nomists and game theorists.

-- 
Sung Hyun Kim      kim_sh@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu ; kim_sh@jhuvms.hcx.jhu.edu

 A self-countering N-tuple is called an equilibrium point
 John Nash, Proceedings of National Academy of Science (1950)
From: pauld@cs.washington.edu (Paul Barton-Davis)
Subject: Re: A Supply Side Call to Arms
Organization: Precipitating Pendulums Postal Party Poopers
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 20:41:11 GMT

In article <L2F=lS+@engin.umich.edu> jwh@citi.umich.edu writes:
Government spending is inherently political
>and has no connection to return on investment.  The government
>won't go out of business if it invests improperly, a private business
>will.

I beg to differ. The timescales and mechanisms are just a little
different, thats all.

-- paul
-- 
hybrid rather than pure; compromising rather than clean; distorted
rather than straightforward; ambiguous rather than articulated;
both-and rather than either-or; the difficult unity of inclusion
rather than the easy unity of exclusion.
Newsgroups: sci.econ,talk.politics.misc
From: rja@mahogany126.cray.com (Russ Anderson)
Subject: Re: Keynes on the Laffer Curve and balanced budgets
Originator: rja@mahogany126
Organization: The 1991 World Champion Minnesota Twins!
Date: 23 Nov 92 12:14:40 CST


In article <1992Nov18.141138.5691@desire.wright.edu>, demon@desire.wright.edu (Stupendous Man) writes:
> 	"taxation may be so high as to defeat its object, and that, given
> sufficient time to gather the fruits, a reduction of taxation will run a better
> chance, than an increase, of balancing the budget." --John Maynard Keynes
> (1933).
> 
> 	Perhaps near the end of his life Keynes was seeing the light.  It only
> took the rest of the country 50 years :).

"near the end of his life"?  Keynes' _The General Theory of Employment, 
Interest and Money_ was published in 1936 and Keynes was the leading British 
delegate at the 1944 Bretton Woods Conference.  Keynes died in 1946.

> Brett
-- 
Russ Anderson    |  Disclaimer: Any statements are my own and do not reflect
------------------              upon my employer or anyone else.  (c) 1992
EX-Twins' Jack Morris, 10 innings pitched, 0 runs (World Series MVP!)
Newsgroups: sci.econ,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian
From: s462075d@edinboro.edu
Newsgroups: sci.econ
Subject: Re: Air travel, PATCO, etc.
Date: 23 Nov 92 15:17:40 GMT
 <1992Nov16.091254.9140@edinboro.edu> <1992Nov18.110502.5684@desire.wright.edu>
Organization: Edinboro University of PA

In article <1992Nov18.110502.5684@desire.wright.edu>, demon@desire.wright.edu (Stupendous Man) writes:
> In article <1992Nov16.091254.9140@edinboro.edu>, s462075d@edinboro.edu writes
>>
>> Let's not forget that many crashes were probably the result, directly or
>> indirectly, of Mr. Reagan's firing of the air traffic contrtolers.
> 
> 	We eagerly await your figures.
> :)
> 
> 	BTW-those controllers deserved to be fired.  Reagan did a good job
> there.

Mabye I'm a little off base saying crashes, but I do know the following:

mid-air near-collisions went WAY up;
there is STILL a shortage of controlloers.
The current controllers felt conditions were bad enough to form a new union.


Where did your parents work, sir?  I'm betting you they never saw the inside
of a remotely difficult place to work, and that you were raised to be a union-
buster and idolize Reagan because of it.

What were the controllers demands?

1.  A shorter week due to a high stress job
2.  A say in the equipment that would be bought to update Air Traffic Control
    Systems

Yeah, they deserved to be fired for caring to do a better job.  The Feds refused
to negotiate with them.  A standard that has ruined any hope of good employer-
employee relations all over the country.  People say "Reagan fired them, why
shouldn't I."

Like I said before, killing organized labor has helped to kill our middle class;
and killing the middle class kills the American economy.  Mark my words, we are
now in a supply-side hangover.

>                                        
> Brett
> ===============================================================================
> 80s: 18 million new jobs, deficits down (%GNP), tax rates down, tax revenues up
> GNP up, inflation down, unemployment down, interest rates down, cold war won
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

National debt TRIPPLED, trade deficit up 10X, #1 export: jobs, under-employment
WAY UP!
_/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\_
|Shawn Duffy    Edinboro University of PA,     United States of America     | 
| s462075d@edinboro.edu/ A student in need of a job/Go Steelers-Cowher Power|
|               "We've upped our standards, so up yours."                   |
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
From: bo275@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Larry R Beam)
Newsgroups: sci.econ
Subject: Re: Trade War?
Date: 18 Nov 1992 04:40:58 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc4.ins.cwru.edu


    There will be no trade war.

    But there will be battles,  and the one now being fought

between America  and France is  historical proportions. That

fight has strained relations between France and Germany more

than anything  else in  memory. The  European Commission has

refused to support France,  leaving her Socialist government

out on a limb all alone. The timing of the fuss--just as the

Treaty    of     Maastricht    faces     the    ratification

process--magnifies its importance.

    My bet is  that a negotiated  solution will be announced

after the  European summit, set  for Edinburgh on  11 and 12

December. That summit is also expected find terms which will

propitiate  ratification  of Maastricht  by  the  Danes, who

rejected  it  earlier  this year.  Failure  at  Edinburgh on

either  of   there  points  will   disastrously  slow  trade

liberalization. but it won't  precipitate trade war, because

the gains from trade are too large.

    Francois Metterrand, the French President, suggests that

acceptance of the terms now  on offer under the GATT process

will  destabilize his  country,  leading to  riots  in   the

streets and worse.  Farmers  constitute something like 6% of

French  employment  and  GNP.   In  just  a  lifetime,  that

statistic  has declined  from 40%.  In recent  years, France

has been  loosing something  like 10,000  farms a  year. The

French have a strong  emotional attachment to their farmers,

and  political  support  for  them  goes  far  beyond  their

numbers.

    Even  Mr. Metterrand,  whose Socialist  government faces

the voters  in March, says  "it would be  very dangerous for

France to become isolated."

    The objections to fair trade  arise from the social pain

which accompanies  its introduction.   The speed  with which

democratic societies can  move toward free  trade is limited

by the voters' willingness to accept the pain of change now,

in the abstract hope of greater social wealth in the future.

    Governments can  do much to  soften the  pain of change.

Governments  can  offer training  and  transfer  payments to

workers  made   redundant  by   trade  liberalization.  Such

programs  are expensive;  cutting,  in the  short  term, the

gains from  more open trade.  But they are  essential to the

democratic acceptability.  Without democratic acceptability,

there can be little progress in a free society.

 

                                  --Larry Beam
From: wolf@ensta.ensta.fr (Christophe Wolfhugel)
Newsgroups: fnet.general
Subject: Folklo du routage ?
Date: 16 Nov 92 10:01:52 GMT
Organization: ENSTA, Paris, France
NNTP-Posting-Host: ensta.ensta.fr

Quel est donc le nouvel algorithme de routage pour les sites Fnet vers
l'etranger ?

ensta:/tmp_mnt/auto/h2/labo/cei/wolf>traceroute sol.ctr.columbia.edu
traceroute to sol.ctr.columbia.edu (128.59.64.40), 30 hops max, 38 byte packets
 1  ftp.ensta.fr (147.250.1.3)  0 ms  0 ms  0 ms
 2  192.44.64.26 (192.44.64.26)  220 ms  200 ms  160 ms
 3  eunet-gw.inria.fr (192.93.1.109)  160 ms  200 ms  180 ms
 4  Amsterdam.NL.EU.NET (134.222.2.1)  860 ms  1060 ms^C
 [...]

Columbia == NY

ensta:/tmp_mnt/auto/h2/labo/cei/wolf>traceroute postman.osf.org
traceroute to postman.osf.org (130.105.1.152), 30 hops max, 38 byte packets
 1  ftp.ensta.fr (147.250.1.3)  20 ms  20 ms  0 ms
 2  192.44.64.26 (192.44.64.26)  180 ms  160 ms  160 ms
 3  sophia-gw.inria.fr (192.93.1.1)  1020 ms  1200 ms  1320 ms
 [...]

OSF = MA

ensta:/tmp_mnt/auto/h2/labo/cei/wolf>traceroute bbn.com
traceroute to bbn.com (128.89.0.122), 30 hops max, 38 byte packets
 1  ftp.ensta.fr (147.250.1.3)  0 ms  20 ms  0 ms
 2  192.44.64.26 (192.44.64.26)  160 ms  180 ms  160 ms
 3  sophia-gw.inria.fr (192.93.1.1)  1680 ms^C

BBN = MA

ensta:/tmp_mnt/auto/h2/labo/cei/wolf>traceroute eff.org
traceroute to eff.org (192.88.144.3), 30 hops max, 38 byte packets
 1  ftp.ensta.fr (147.250.1.3)  0 ms  0 ms  20 ms
 2  192.44.64.26 (192.44.64.26)  180 ms  240 ms  160 ms
 3  eunet-gw.inria.fr (192.93.1.109)  180 ms  160 ms  180 ms
 4  Amsterdam.NL.EU.NET (134.222.2.1)  920 ms  1220 ms  700 ms

EFF = MA

Distance pour le triangle EFF, BBN, OSF:  moins d'une heure a pied.

Wolf
Newsgroups: lou.sun
From: kwuug@tdkcs.waterloo.on.CA
Subject: Manuf. Presentations
Submit-To: kwuucp@xenitec.on.ca
Reply-To: kwuug@tdkcs.waterloo.on.CA
Organization: XeniTec Consulting Services, Kitchener, ON, Canada
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 16:24:11 GMT


From: timk@tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca (Tim Kuehn)

[kwuug@tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca <kwuug@tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca writes... ]
>I don't think KWUUG shouldn't be a forum for advertising, that's all.
>It's one thing for a member to say "I use xxx and it's useful"; it's quite
>another for a vendor to show up and say "we're producing this, we think
>you might want to buy it."  That's not what we're there for.

It can be a fine distinction between the two. However, I personally 
have no problem with some kind of technical presentation on a new 
product, and let the attendees decide if they want to buy it or not. 
After all, this is as much of a "how to do it" group as anything else, 
and technical presentations help work towards that goal of increasing 
our respective abilities to do things.

Sales pitches, however, are not welcome. And as long as Sean, or 
any other person from a SW manufacturer keeps it technical, I have 
no problem with them talking about a new or existing product and how 
it works, or can be used to solve an outstanding or widespread problem 
in our field.

<<<----+---------+-----+--------------+-----+---------------------------+-->>>
    +   Tim Kuehn   +   TDK Consulting   +    (519)-888-0766
    +   <><         +   Services         +    timk@tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca 
<<<----+---------+-----+--------------+-----+---------------------------+-->>>
Newsgroups: kw.uucp,kw.general
From: kwuug@tdkcs.waterloo.on.CA
Subject: Re: KWUUG Nov. Meeting Question
Submit-To: kwuucp@xenitec.on.ca
Reply-To: kwuug@tdkcs.waterloo.on.CA
Organization: XeniTec Consulting Services, Kitchener, ON, Canada
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 22:46:10 GMT

From: vances@xenitec.xenitec.on.ca (Vance Shipley)

Once again my employer is flying me out of the country hours before this
meeting.  I'll make it to one yet!

Please post a summary of what was talked about.  Thanks.



-- 
Vance Shipley 
vances@xenitec.on.ca         vances@switchview.com         vances@ltg.uucp
Newsgroups: kw.uucp
From: kwuug@tdkcs.waterloo.on.CA
Subject: Re: ROOM CHANGE: KWUUG November Meeting
Submit-To: kwuucp@xenitec.on.ca
Reply-To: kwuug@tdkcs.waterloo.on.CA
Organization: XeniTec Consulting Services, Kitchener, ON, Canada
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 20:36:15 GMT


From: Lindsay Patten <mks!watserv1!watnow!lindsay>

Is there a topic for this meeting?
Newsgroups: kw.uucp