From: gln@cs.arizona.edu (Gary L. Newell)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: USA go home (Was Re: Shooting)
Date: 15 Apr 92 08:37:11 GMT
Organization: U of Arizona CS Dept, Tucson

In article <1992Apr14.202532.6159@pony.Ingres.COM>, gmcquary@Ingres.COM (George F. McQuary) writes:
> In article <1992Apr9.140801.29545@rdg.dec.com> preece@sbpexe.enet.dec.com writes:
> >>  Mark Holohan, DEC, USA        "Character is what you are in the dark" - BB
> >Odd, isn't it, how the further one gets from the situation, the more
> >entrenched and volubly-expressed one's opinions become ? 

Tell it to the catholics in Belfast or Derry - or better yet, wait until they're
beaten into submission and then tell us all how wonderful the British have been.

> No one here is shooting each other, bombing the subways, or moving in standing
> armies as part of the expression of their opinions. I'd say we here in the USA
> are remarkably well restrained compared to some. 

Forget it George - the opinion that Irish-Americans are blood-thirsty morons
who like nothing more than selling violence to other countries is a given here.
As is the line of argument that the British govt. is a wonderful group which
is now and always has treated the Irish as the honorable people they are...

> As to being well entrenched, well, some might say twenty years of not being
> able to find a solution is somewhat entrenched. 

 I'd say more than 20 years....

>There are more Irish-Americians(18 million at last count) than there are Irish.
> Every Irish-Americian learns as a child that seven of the US presidents were

Unfortunately not all Irsih-Americans do learn this. Our country has tended
towards a rather - "we are American" attitude over the last 20 years and in
my opinion we have lost our heritage in the process...

> all or in part of Irish decent(Now eight with Reagan?)so we have obtained here
> a status in the world not enjoyed by Ireland itself.  

That is true and is often not discussed in this group - the reality of the
situation is that Irish-Americans are far better off as a whole than are the 
Irish themselves... not that this reflects on their relative merits but it may
lend some insight as to why American Irish tend towards more extreme views...

> We came to this country
> because of famine, having our land stolen from us, conscription, or as white
> slaves for the plantations. Because of this, the average Irish-americian
> is fairly pissed off at the UK.

 I used to believe this until I moved to Arizona. For those who may not know
Arizona was settled by an Irishman long before most Eastern citites were
ever set foot on by the whiteman. Irish worked the railroads in the 
southwest and settled here in great abundance. But compared to my education
regarding our homeland that I received in Massachusetts and that which I
see presented here in the southwest, I have to say that probably "most"
Irish-americans do not receive the history which would allow them to
view the situation in Ireland as anything but what the dominating press
presents....

> When faced with such arrogance in the sons of the people who did this to us,
>it is  difficult NOT to cheer whenever someone blows up more British. 

 Although I understand what you are saying here, I doubt many others will.
Unless you've grown up with a history which screams of injustice and
brutality at the hands of the ever-so-noble British, you are unlikely
to ever truly respect the anger which many Irish-Americans still harbor with 
respect to the British. It is much too easy to look at a US posting
and write it off as some classic violent american who fits into the
bullshit prototype that it seems most Europeans hold with respect to us.

> I very much
> resent the attitude that Irish-americians should keep quiet about Irish politics.

Bravo - as do I. It seems that we should be expected to give up our
heritage and in effect bend over for those who see fit to portray us as
a group of madmen wanting nothing more than blood on the streets and
death counts on TV. We, who are the descendants of those who were forced
from their land or jailed for their views should simply ignore the
continued injustice and allow things to "progress" as they currently are.
After all, we do not live in Ireland and thus, it seems, have given up all
rights to expressing our views with respect to the futre direction of the
land that our mothers/fathers/grandparents called home. This is a common
European attitude it seems to me, one which I've heard expressed by 
most countries of Western Europe - one wonders how important the
ethnic groups in this country were with respect to the recent freedom gained
in countries a bit further east....

 But as I said, I would expect very little more than extreme anger as a result
of your post (I hope I am wrong) which is truly unfortunate as it tends
to reflect the true bias that has long existed in this group...

			gln