From: rajain@ecs.umass.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian
Subject: Re: WITHER PATRIOTISM ?
Date: 10 Oct 92 12:51:13 GMT

In article <1992Oct9.123451.15698@cbfsb.cb.att.com>, sphanda@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (surinder.phanda) writes:
> In article <1992Oct8.223436.19533@news.clarkson.edu>, rajat@sunny1.che.clarkson.edu (Rajat Kapoor) writes:
>> 
>> 
>> Nothing can be more tormenting for me than the statement:
>> 
>> "... given the social conditions in India, I'll never go back... "
> 
> Would you?? The fact is, a lot of Indians do actually choose not to 
> go back.....

  Do you think they are *Indians* ? I don't think so!

> 
>> 
>> A pathetic statement coming from a person, born and nurtured in
>> India... 
> 
> Why? surely to talk from experience is the best example.
> 
>> 
>> It is fine ( and healthy ) to question our social
>> values, criticize and deplore evils... but to slander and 
>> malign the country as inhospitable, is a terrible thing to do...
> 
> To some it does appear inhospitable - you have to accept that.
 
  .............................................NOT !!!

> 
>> 
>> No self-respecting native can ever stab a country like that !
> 
> Why ever not?? Just because you are a native of a particular country
> does not mean hard hitting truthful facts about it cannot be raised....
> Take off the rose tinted glasses please!

  Awww! Please.......don't try to cover up for the *slanderous* remarks
  made by people on SCI ! We are all grown ups here <I hope!>  and we all 
  know the difference between "mud-slinging" and "hard-hitting-truthful-
  facts". Truth *is* bitter, but we DO NOT deal with hard facets of Indian
  society by making comments like <and I am quoting some posts on SCI from 
  memory> "India sucks", "India is a dishonest country" <this is what Rajat
  was probably refering to...)
  
> 
>> 
>> If one were to read between the lines of the utterings of such
>> believers, the message is "India and those who choose to live
>> there are damned... doomed to live in a cesspool of misery...! "
> 
> Well, are'nt they?? The MAJORITY (who do not have the comforts or haven
> of a Western country) do live in a "cesspool of misery". They don't
> have the luxury of making tough decisons about which private school
> to send their kids.... or whether to change jobs and move into 
> another (luxury) home....etc..

  If by "luxury" you are NOT implying towards the "gasoline-costs",
  "apt. buildings", "customer service" and "coin machines for soda
   and almost everything else", then I tend to agree with you here.
  Yes! a common person in India IS suffering because he/she is does
  NOT <because of financial or else society or some other constraints>
  have the freedom of choice/decision in important aspects of his/her 
  life (and no! by "decisions" I definitely am not refering to a 
  decision involving whether to cook rice or chapati tonight>. I think
  the point you mention, about school preferences for kids, job-choices
  etc is a good one! But then again, we cannot go around saying that my
  country is a "miserable one" !!! *THAT* is no way to face and rectify
  the problems currently faced in India....is it? 

> 
>> 
>> Indeed, some people are brought up in an family environment that
>> preaches insensitivity to the populance, and that "this hell"
>> is an incidental foster country, expendable at first opportunity.
> 
> I doubt if any family has time.....they are too busy surviving.
> 
>> 
>> I love India, because I have lived there as an Indian..., and
>> I've an ancestary to be proud of... I like Indians a lot more
>> than anybody else, because we think alike, we feel alike,and we live
>> alike. 
> 
> I love India too, but Snap out it. India has changed a lot (much of it 
> for the worst) since the days of the "ancestary" you're talking about. 
> Of course there are similarities between Indians, but don't turn 
> us into clones!    

  of course, we ain't "clones" :-)

> 
>> 
>> US is a foster country, made great by people who adopted it. The first
>> generation immigrants never abondoned their country, they revered it.
> 
> The U.S has always been considered a country of opportunity. It's where
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> a lot immigrants dreams came true, and continue to come true....
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  Well said!!!!


> People did'nt abandon it because it did so much for them. Unfortunatley
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  However these very people *did* abondon the country which fed them and
  provided them with unique identity <not a good word but can't think
  of a better one right now> !! Ok, so people in India are very much
  discontent and frustated with the "opportunity" (job) thing there 
  <what with "merey chaachey ke bhateejey ke dost ki saalee kaa bhaai hai, 
  toh zaraa "khayaal" rakhnaa"> but should WE <who come to THIS land of great
  opportunities> abandon our own country because another country <and believe
  me, it's *still* a foreign land otherwise if this country was truly meant
  to provide opportunities to immigrants then why would there be incidents like
  "Dot-busters" in New Jersey> *gave* something to us ??? It is a highly
  erroneous statement that India didn't provide us with anything so we desert
  it!! What about our culture, our traditions, our legends etc...?? Did we
  get our India culture form USA ??? ......I don't think so!   


> the same is not true of India. Just look at the lines of people at
> foreign embassies waiting to get out .....

  well, on a lighter note......India does need to get "rid" of a lot
  of populace if it wants to avoid capturing the title of "most populated
  country" by year 2000 :-) :-) :-)

> 
>> 
>> On a personal side, I'll never take a woman who disvows her native
>> land as my wife. Can't be trusted in life...
> 
> So you want an obedient woman that agrees with everything you say
> and "knows her place" - typical!

  OOOooooooooooppps! Ms. Phanda, I think you are doing too much of "read
  between the lines" cuz Rajat's <Kapoor :-)> statement is NOT a "typical"
  M.C.Pig statement. All he is saying is that <in HIS opinion> he would not
  trust a person <in this case his to-be-spouse and yes! a woman :-)> who
  "disvows" her country ! No! No! No! he did NOT say "who should broom, and
  cook and take care of kids" and he did NOT say that he expects his partner
  to be a dedicated non-US-resident-type Indian, but someone who does not
  "DISVOW" her country because that <in a way> implies unreliability as
  part of that person's character :-) 

  Interpret my comments any way you prefer to, but they were neither meant
to "flame" your comments nor to impose my opinion on you <or anyone else>.
I loved this discussion and would look forward to your response !!

> 
>> 
>> Rajat Kapoor 
> 
> Ms Surinder Phanda
>    AT&T Network Systems UK Ltd
>    Malmesbury.

Rajat Jain <no! I ain't related to Rajat Kapoor!!>

Department of Industrial Engg. and Operations Research
University of Massachusetts/Amherst
 
Email: rajain@sml3.ecs.umass.edu
       rajain@ecs.umass.edu

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