From: lindercs@HYDRA.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU (Galadin (Craig Linderoth))
Subject: Re: abortion
Reply-To: lindercs@HYDRA.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU
Organization: Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 22:09:57 GMT

In article <1992Apr10.184623.14441@midway.uchicago.edu>, moh2@quads.uchicago.edu (Kateri/Mary Anne) writes:
>In article <1992Apr10.174100.15160@cs.rose-hulman.edu> lindercs@HYDRA.ROSE-HULMAN.EDU writes:
>
>>	The problem in abortion is deciding what is a good case for one.  
>
>Okay, let's look at your criteria:
>
>	1) Anyone wishing an abortion should be screened and counseled first.
>
>	Okay, fair enough.  Women or girls who discover they are pregnant are
>often distraught and can almost certainly use a counselor to educate them 
>about the choices available.  Granted.  Planned Parenthood already does this.
>
	I know that PP does this stuff and overall I think that they are a
great service and should be supported.  My problem is that they are not used as 
often as they should be.  Abortion, according to my plan, would be handled by a
government agency (yes, problems there, but if it could be made an agency that
works with government support. (?)).  It would then be the only place for legal
abortions, and the counseling would be automatically part of the process.  This
is for both the male and female if it is a couple deciding this. (I do think
that the male needs to play mor of a role in supporting his partner in anything
that she does decide to do.)

>	2) (out of order, I know) They should be educated in contraceptives.
>
>	Complete agreement here.  No question.  PP also does this.

	Right, but as above, this is totally voluntary and not used.  If
somehow a representative from PP would be allowed into the school system to
help educate children on sex (children, not teenagers, normally too late then)
then I think it would help get rid of a lot of the problem anyway.
>	3)  A third party should make the decision.
>
>	Wait a second.  What third party?  I'm assuming you don't mean parents
>or priest, because they cannot make an objective decision.  The counselor 
>from before?   Assuming they know the case well and are as well-acquainted as
>possible with the girl or woman's situation?
>
	This is not a perfect system, but then there never can be.  But, if a
counselor that is compassionate towards the woman (not sympathetic) then I
think that that would be the closest we could obtain to a fair third party. 
Some of the people I know in PP would be great in attitude for this except that
they readily agree with abortion.  I would be a bad person for it also cause I
greatly oppose abortion.  There has to be a compassionate person in the middle
who could understand both sides of the issue.  It would take work and maybe
some specialized training for this though.


>	I would bet you anything that the majority of women who went through
>this process would, if turned down, resort to back alley and coat-hanger 
>abortions.  That is what history has shown us; that is what happens.  Would 
>you be able, morally, to accept the risk to the mother in this scenario?

	Well, I don't feel morally responsible for iv drug users who get AIDS
and die.  Now I may feel sorry for them, but not responsible.  Why should
abortion be any different.  If it is against the law and someone decides to do
it anyway, I should feel responsible?  Let me ask you, are you responsible for
all the drug related deaths.  If so, then this is a moot issue since we all
have this blood on our hands.  Before you try to say that this is not the same
case, why not?  The drug user is choosing what he does with his body.  The
problem is that he can hurt soceity by doing so, especially if these drugs
cause serious enough damage to his thoughts that he kills someone else.  If a
lady went out and got an illegal abortion, I would look upon it as a murder. 
Now, I would be much more lenient in working with this person if caught, but it
would still be a crime and a murder. (Yes, I feel that strongly that that fetus
is a life.)  This point is the basic difference in our ideas.  You argue that
the rights of the woman over her own body are higher than the rights of the
fetus over life.  I am not going to be able to change your mind, and I can
definitely say you will not change mine, but together, by proposing ideas, we
should be able to come up with something better than what we have now.  

>	Even if the counselor feels that there is not sufficient justification
>for an abortion, said counselour *cannot* take into account all the factors 
>that may be pressing upon the girl.  Family pressure, cultural pressure, 
>religious, scholastic...monetary.

	True, this system would be better under a government run health care
system (Galadin prays hopefully for one) but I don't find how these pressures
are more important, IMHO, than a life.  Remember, I am saying that I feel life
starts at conception.  Therefore, this baby has the same right to life as the
mother.  This may sound a bit harsh to the mother, but to me, killing a fetus
(which is what I feel it is) is harsh.  It may help to understand though that
my mother had all of these pressures on her too.  Luckily, for me, the
religious pressure was big enough to deter her from an abortion.  It was not
easy, for either of us, but I am VERY glad that she chose to bear me, and I
think that she is kinda happy she did too.  I know that my case is not
universal and things won't turn out as they did for me.  But if abortion was
looked upon with the same eye then as it is today, I would not be here to be
talking to you about it.

>	And even if the counselor could make the best possible choice for the
>girl or woman, I, personally, would refuse to hand over such a decision to a 
>disinterested third party.  That's not a particularly logical decision - but
>that is what I believe in.
>
>						 - Kateri
>
>P.S. - This is not a flame, please don't take it as one.
	For me to take it as a flame, you would have to have indiscriminately
said I was wrong without any discussion of the matter.  That I would take
serious offense at.  But, I greatly appreciate your having read through my
thoughts and trying to answer them.  That is the kind of feedback I enjoy.  I
hope that you take my answer in the same kind of light.  (And I hope that this
does not truly set someone off.  It is the same as arguing religion, there is
no real right or wrong, only how the person perceives the situation.)


******************************************************************************
*Craig Linderoth                * Reality is for People who Lack Imagination.*
*Lindercs@Rosevc.rose-hulman.edu*   The Callahanian Protector of People from *
*ChemEng, Rose-Hulman           *    Outrageous Pun Throwers    SPLAT :)     *
******************************************************************************           
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