From: garvin+@cs.cmu.edu (Susan Garvin)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: ALL ARGUMENTS FOR PRO-CHOICE REFUTED HERE!!!!!
Date: 6 Oct 92 20:49:59 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

In article <1992Oct6.000104.1896@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> c164-ad@po.berkeley.edu (Martin Guerrero) writes:
#In article <1992Oct5.201329.11680@wdl.loral.com> bard@cutter.ssd.loral.com writes:
#
##I require a reference for this statistic.
##
### Proponents of abortion, such as Planned Parenthood, misrepresent the number of
### deaths from "back-alley clinics" prior to legalization by using estimates of
### 5,000 to 10,000 deaths annually, [...]
##
##I require a reference for this, and support for the allegation that
##this is a misrepresentation.
#
#Coming from another source, Dr. Bernard Nathanson, co-founder of NARAL
#(National Abortion Rights Action League) admits his group lied about the
#number of women who died from illegal abortion when testifying before the
#U.S. Supreme Court in 1972: "We spoke of 5,000 - 10,000 deaths a year ...
#I confess that I knew the figures were totally false ... it was a useful
#figure, widely accepted, so why go out of our way to correct it with 
#honest statistics?


All that this proves is that Nathanson is a liar.  (Anyone who
has seen "The Silent Scream" already knew this.)  None of the other 
co-founders of NARAL have corroborated Nathanson's statements.  
In other words, the only support that you are able to offer is
a statement from an admitted liar.  That's not too impressive.

### 4.  To prevent child abuse.
### 
### Abortion is itself the ultimate form of child abuse and dehumanization, and
### contrary to what many Americans assume, children from unplanned pregnancies
### represent only 10% or fewer of abuse cases annually in America.  Following
### Roe vs. Wade in 1973, the cases of child abuse in America rose 500% by 1982.
##
##I require a reference for this statistic.
##
#
#Also, from another view/source:
#Date		Total Number		% Increase
#1973		167,000	
#1979		711,142			325%
#1986		1,000,000		500%
#
#U.S. Dept. of Health and Human Services, National Center of
#Child Abuse and Neglect


Sigh.  Get someone to explain to you how staistics can be used
honestly.

### The evidence tells a different story.  In her research article, "The Myth:
### Unplanned Pregnancies Lead to Child Abuse," Dr. Wanda Franz wrote:  "In every
### major child-abuse center, the data collected on families who have been
### identified as abusers indicate that the vast majority `wanted' their children
### before they were born.  The percentages of `wantedness' ranged from 91 percent
### to 96 percent, depending on the study."
##
##Where and when was this published?
##
#
#Another possible useful source might come from Dr. Philip Ney, chief of
#psychiatry at a major teaching hospital.  Some quotes
#   "... elective abortion is an important cause of child abuse."
#   "Recent evidence indicates that many women harbor strong guilt feelings
#    long after their abortions.  Guilt is one important cause of child
#    battering an infanticide.  Abortion also lowers women's self-esteem
#    and there are studies reporting a major loss of self-esteem in 
#    battering parents..."
#   "Abortion might also weaken a social taboo against harming those who
#    are defenseless."
#
#P. Ney, "Relationship between Abortion & Child Abuse: Canada Jour.nal
#Psychiatry, vol. 24, 1979, pp. 610-620

You don't have a source for Franz's claim, in other words.  Maybe
she published it in another agricultural journal.

##[...]
### Emphasizing that acceptance to violence inside the womb has weakened parents'
### resistance to violence outside the womb, Dr. Ney has further noted:  (1)
### Abortion decreases a parent's instinctual restraint against occasional rage
### felt toward a child.  (2) Permissive abortion diminishes restraint against
### aggressing the defenseless.  (3) Abortion increases hostility between
### generations.  (4) Abortion has devalued life.  (5) Abortion increases guilt
### and self-hatred, which the parent releases against the child.  (6) Abortion
### increases hostile frustration between sexes, for which the child is the
### scapegoat.
##
##I require a reference for this.
##
#The above might also help.  Note that these two are two different
#people.
#
### After legalizing abortion on demand in 1973, America saw a 500% increase in
### child abuse by 1982, from 167,000 cases to 929,000.
##
##I require a reference for this.
##
#As mentioned earlier, try the U.S. Dept. of Health & Human Services as
#well as the National Center of Child Abuse & Neglect.

You (and Dr. Ney) might look up the phrase "post hoc, ergo propter
hoc".

Susan
Xref: sparky talk.abortion:39134 alt.abortion.inequity:4109