From: decay@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (dean.kaflowitz)
Subject: Re: Kathi, please be careful
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 00:51:41 GMT

In article <1992Apr14.151547.28644@cs.dal.ca> franklin@ug.cs.dal.ca (Steve Franklin) writes:
> In <1992Apr14.122104.24950@cbnewsj.cb.att.com> decay@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (dean.kaflowitz) writes:
> 
> >In article <1992Apr14.020335.28843@cs.dal.ca> franklin@ug.cs.dal.ca (Steve Franklin) writes:
> >> In <1992Apr13.201437.2232@cco.caltech.edu> anne@cco.caltech.edu (Anneliese Lilje) writes:
> >> 
> >> >In article <1992Apr12.203855.28178@cs.dal.ca> franklin@ug.cs.dal.ca (Steve Franklin) writes:
> >> >>In <1992Apr12.190500.918@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> kcochran@isis.cs.du.edu (Keith A. Cochran) writes:
> >> >>>In article <1992Apr12.165452.17782@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> mal11@po.CWRU.Edu (Matthew A. Lewis) writes:
> >> >>>>In a previous article, gordons@coopsol.com (Gordon Storga) says:
> 
> >You remember?  Sounds like you were there.
>   I guess I have to have been there to be any sort of authority huh?
> Hmmm, I guess there are more doubting Thomases in this world than
> I would like to acknowledge...

Your statement made it sound like you were there, which I noted.
You have not shown any knowledge in the matter, and in fact are
still unable to supply any references, as in the following.
> 
> >Now, document this claim of "thousands and thousands."  I know
> >of no text that supports such a claim.  Furthermore, you seem,
> >from your statements, to be extremely ignorant of the Spanish
> >conquest of Native Americans.
>    How silly of you. The deaths of the missionaries is well known
> and factual. The men that died in the line of religiou sacrificie was
> not in the name of plunder but enlightenment...

That some died is not a matter I debate.  That there
were "thousands and thousands" requires support, which
you provide in the form of more assertion.  Which is to
say, non-support.  As for their deaths in the name of
"enlightenment," that is something I would also like to
see supported.  I'll take a little time off this weekend
just for you, Stevie.  I'll supply you with references
that will show that the Catholic Church (no, I'm noit bashing
the Church, just making a point here) supported the work
and efforts of the Conquistadores, regarded the native
population of North America as godless savages (which is
nonsense - they had more gods and some of them more sensible than
the Church's paltry collection), and that some of the missionaries
blessed the slaughter of the native population and the eradication
of their culture.

Indulge my silliness and give me one reference for your claim of
"thousands and thousands" please.
 
> >Frankly, considering the circumstances of the arival of
> ^^^^^^^^^^ GOOD CHOICE IN WORDS!!!

No answer to what I wrote?  Do you agree then, or are you
unable to answer?

> >You said in a separate posting, Steve, that you are 19 and
> >made some strange boasts about your experience.  You are,
> >in fact, very young and very inexperienced.  I base this
>    Inexperienced in which ways? I wager that my eyes have seen
> more than you are ready to admit. In any case, whether you feel
> I am inexperienced or not oh great and wise one, I dont' give a
> care. Until I feel I am outclassed by your arguments I wont' really
> pay much attention to your little stabs.

You haven't responded to my arguments.  If you feel you
have something valid to say, leave what I say in and
refute me.  I'm open to refutation, but your answers are
entirely non-responsive.

In what ways are you inexperienced?  How long have you
been entirely responsible for yourself and your upkeep?
At all?  Have you ever gone hungry?  Looked into the eyes
of your own death?  Seen another die right before your
eyes?  How many hands have you held through their long sorrow?
How many times have you rejoiced in the unexpected good fortune
and recovery of another?

How many women have you dated who had abortions, suffered a rape,
lost a child?  How much have you loved and how much have you
sorrowed.

I am young, Steve.  As I told someone just recently in email,
though, I am glad I never thought I had all the answers.  The
older I get, the more answers I have, but the questions outnumber
the answers I receive, and I rejoice in that as well.

It's a challenge, getting smarter.  I'm no tby any means
wise.  No, I'm not young enough to know everything anymore.
> 
> >The priests generally behaved as agents of those who would rape
> >and destroy the native culture.  They were not, generally, agents
> >of the Light of the World, or somesuch.  Really, Steve, the
> >horrible levels of corruption, ignorance, hatred, and brutality
> >that accompanied the coming of European culture to North
> >America seem to have escaped you. 
>    I do not agree with you here. the level of corruptibility and plunder
> rests in the majority towards the upper hierarchical levels of 
> the church. The peons or the missionaries who left their homes to
> educate the "blind" were heros in my mind, and nothing less. It's 
> cool that you're telling me they died ofr nothing, and almost 
> deserved it though...

I would wager that some were honest.  I would further venture that
many were not.  Your remarks still do not answer my own.

Yes, tehy did die for nothing in my opinion.  Or rather,
they did not die for what they thought they died for.  The
evidence is that they died for the genocide of an indigenouss
population and the eradication of that people's culture.
Noble purpose doess not glorify evil actions.  Or would you
say that the torture and murder of heretics was the act of
heroes?

Unfortunately, my library of history books concentrates on foreign
policy, and my father's library is the one with all of the books
on the native population of North America.  I'll get you the
references.
> 
> >Ah, if only Red Cloud were here today.
>    Ah, if only Jesus could visit the earth every generation so that
> there weren't so many damn disbelievers... (quoted from some sci-fi
> but I can't attribute the source...)

If he'd show up just once I'd be satisfied.  Ah, but if only
Vishnu could visit the earth every generation it would help
also.  How about the Great Spirit?  Anyone for lunch with
the Angel Moroni?  I wouldn't want the Buddha to show up,
because I would have to kill him.  How about J.R. "BoB"
Dobbs?

Would either of the Erics, Marsh or Rescorla, care to name
a few more gods or goddesses for the purpose of straightening
out these damn disbelievers?  I could rattle off a bunch of
Greeks gods (Zeus, Hera, Athena, Aphrodite - why are these
Christian gods all male? - Apollo, Iris, Ares, Neptune,
Artemis...and so on - why, even Caligula was a god, wasn't he,
though not Greek).

Steve, if your god is really happy at the treatment of the
native American population, which included not merely
torture and death, but enslavement, rape, and theft of
their few belongings (interestingly, the native American
population never believed in the ownership of real estate),
then you have one evil god there.

Dean Kaflowitz

Oh sun, you endure forever
But we Kaitsenko must die
Oh earth, you endure forever
But we Kaitsenko must die

Newsgroups: talk.abortion