HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: petesk@microsoft.com (Pete Skelly)
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: 14 Aug 92 10:06:11 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation
Distribution: na

In article <1992Aug13.213845.3007@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>
>
>Yeah, but seriously, how many computers come with disk drives?  Now
>count how many have CD-ROM as a 'standard' part of the setup.
>Frankly, I was just a bit hacked off at Sun when they came out with
>this policy of shipping everything on CD-ROM only, and that's for
>workstations that are just a bit higher dollar value than the typical
>Intel machine.  MS doing it is RIDICULOUS.

How many computers are shipped with the necessary resources to do productive
developement.  Yeah, I know there's got to be some guy out there who's 
developing on a 286 with a tiny hard drive, but He's probably loosing money
in productivity.  How much time do you think it will take you to install
a development system off of floppies, maybe 4 hours.  At a consulting
rate of $40 an hour (for you, your computer, office, etc, and this is low
priced, believe me), that comes to $160 for your install.  For a CD rom,
maybe an hour, at most.  That comes to $40.  The difference = $90.  You
can now only afford to install only 5 or so times before you're loosing
money.  That includes installing Anything that takes a full CD rom, not just
NT, so if you add up future versions of NT, and other software that will start
to get large, it becomes very economical for developers.

>
>It's not a matter of 'not needing money'.  It's a matter of needing a
>CD-ROM. 

If you really don't like it, get a friend with a CDROM drive to put your
copy on floppy for you.  Install twice and don't call me in the morning.

petesk@microsoft.com
My Opinions...


Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: jonka@microsoft.com (Jonathan Kagle)
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: 23 Aug 92 08:13:33 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation
Distribution: na

In article <1992Aug21.095746.13142@weyrich.UUCP> tnet.com!weyrich!orville writes:
>I would be happy to buy a CD-ROM if there was sufficient stuff published at
>reasonable cost (about $100 say) per volume:
> [...]
>	NT with complete source (dream on)

I'm pretty sure that in his keynote speech at the San Francisco Win32 
Professional Developer's Conference, Bill Gates stated that Microsoft was
planning to release the source code for NT to universities.  He didn't give
very much detail about this, though.

       -Jonathan 
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
From: craigdo@microsoft.com (Craig Dowell)
Subject: Disclaimer
Date: 13 Aug 92 18:25:41 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

>Neither the United States Government or the Idaho National Engineering
>Laboratory or any of their employees, makes any warranty, whatsoever,
>implied, or assumes any legal liability or responsibility regarding any
>information, disclosed, or represents that its use would not infringe
>privately owned rights.  No specific reference constitutes or implies
>endorsement, recommendation, or favoring by the United States
>Government or the Idaho National Engineering Laboratory.  The views and
>opinions expressed herein do not necessarily reflect those of the
>United States Government or the Idaho National Engineering Laboratory,
>and shall not be used for advertising or product endorsement purposes.

Yeah, right. :-)
From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: 19 Aug 92 19:31:19 GMT
Article-I.D.: mksol.1992Aug19.193119.680
Distribution: na
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc

In <1566@anagld.analytics.com> sammy@anagld.analytics.com (Sam Blackburn) writes:

>mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:

>>(as in backups -- remember backups?).  Try backing your system up to
>>your CD-ROM sometime and see how far you get. :-)

>Or even try to write a ROM program cartridge for the TI99/4A. :-)

Quite right.  I consider that to have been one of the reasons that
that system didn't make it on the market.  Of course, that's not the
part of the company I'm in.

I write user-friendly software -- that kills people.


-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
Xref: sparky comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy:1946 comp.os.os2.advocacy:4255
From: sammy@anagld.analytics.com (Sam Blackburn)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: 20 Aug 92 02:29:54 GMT
Article-I.D.: anagld.1572
Distribution: na
Organization: Computer Sciences Corporation - Systems Engineering Division

gt1619a@prism.gatech.EDU (James is just this guy, you know...) writes:

>CD-ROM is an excellent medium for the distibution of large amounts of data
>as it is very inexpensive (about $1000 for the initial pressing, then about
>$0.20 for each disk, not including the packaging).

>It is, however, a distinctly poor medium for video, and the like. It's damn
>slow. If you've ever dealt with full-screen full-motion video before, you
>know that the transfer rate of contemporary CD-ROMS is far far too slow.

True, the video I was speaking of was compressed Quicktime stuff.  It was
between 15 and 30 fps and NOT full screen.  I was just comparing getting
the video data from a CD (damn slow) and tape (damn impossible).
Xref: sparky comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy:1972 comp.os.os2.advocacy:4304
From: dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: 20 Aug 92 18:58:27 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <Bt9Cox.98p@acsu.buffalo.edu> v053qpgh@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Eric W Sarjeant) writes:
>Another very important consideration is reliability. None of my CD-ROMs
>have ever reported bad sectors...there is a reason for this. Do you know
>how discouraged a user gets when he/she returns to backup copies of large
>programs only to find the disks have been damanged in storage?

That doesn't happen if you make backups regularly (like weekly).  Of
course, you need something better than floppies and faster than MO
disks to do that with large drives (tapes?  did someone say tapes?)

This in no way invalidates using CD-ROMs for distribution of software,
of course.  They're beside the point, since they can't be backed up
to.


-- 
   |)  David Charlap           "I don't even represent myself
  /|_  dic5340@hertz.njit.edu   sometimes so NJIT is right out!.
 ((|,)
  ~|~  Hi! I am a .signature virus, copy me into your .signature file.
Xref: sparky comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy:1908 comp.os.os2.advocacy:4173
From: dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: CD ROM players...
Date: 18 Aug 92 19:25:29 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <1992Aug18.163905.14109@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>I also don't really want to spend the money on a CD-ROM drive, since
>storage I can't write to strikes me as pretty useless in the general
>scheme of things.

What someone has to do is come out with a CD-ROM drive that is also a
fully-featured CD-audio player, complete with remote control and
programming (from a control panel, not from a computer).  And charge
the same price as an audio player.

This way, I can simply load the occasional computer disc into my audio
player (which would be in my stereo's rack, of course) when I need it.
Otherwise, you're right, there would be no use for the thing in most
cases.

-- 
   |)  David Charlap           "I don't even represent myself
  /|_  dic5340@hertz.njit.edu   sometimes so NJIT is right out!.
 ((|,)
  ~|~  Hi! I am a .signature virus, copy me into your .signature file.
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: petesk@microsoft.com (Pete Skelly)
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: 16 Aug 92 22:01:51 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation
Distribution: na

In article <mcdonald.208@aries.scs.uiuc.edu> mcdonald@aries.scs.uiuc.edu (J. D. McDonald) writes:
>In article <1992Aug15.010451.25474@microsoft.com> petesk@microsoft.com (Pete Skelly) writes:
>
>>>fred j mccall 575-3539 (mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com) wrote:
>>>: Yeah, but seriously, how many computers come with disk drives?  Now
>>>: count how many have CD-ROM as a 'standard' part of the setup.
>>>: Frankly, I was just a bit hacked off at Sun when they came out with
>>>: this policy of shipping everything on CD-ROM only, and that's for
>>>: workstations that are just a bit higher dollar value than the typical
>>>: Intel machine.  MS doing it is RIDICULOUS.
>>>
>
>>Actually, this brings up a thought.  How many computers were there with
>>disk drives 10-15 years ago.  Most of them used casette tape (PC's).
>
>>(NOTE: use of PETE.EXE in previous sentence)
>
>>It must have been really difficult for you to switch over to floppy disks
>>from cassette.  The price difference was about equivalent to getting
>>a CDROM.  The same can be said for Hard Drives.
>
>>Would you have us still living in the world of cassette tapes for data
>>storage, where load times were measured in minutes for even the smallest
>>applications.
>
>>People NOT upgrading to newer technologies is REDICULOUS, especially
>>when it is cheaper in the long run.
>
>>petesk@microsoft.com
>>My Opinions...
>
>
>
>The above posting is pure useless worthless gibber.
>
>Now that I've got your atttention, let me note two points:
>
>1) The poster is from Microsoft
>
>2) A CD-ROM drive does not write, so it is perfectly useless for normal
>   people who want to store their own data. It **requires** that you
>   pay money to someone else for the CD-ROM
>
>3) If people are going to buy, in quantity, a new very expensive drive,
>   it had better write as well as read. Consider the Net optical drive.
>   I'm not quite sure why it has failed. It failed Next because they
>   tried to use it **instead of** an adequately fast hard disk.
>
>Doug McDonald


What does 1) have to do with anything. 
Okay, here's your choice.  You can buy a CDROM, and have access
to all these new apps that deal with large amounts of data, have
online docs, have multimedia, etc.  Or you can get the same by buying
floppy disk versions of the same, and an additional hard disk to hold
this data.  Or maybe not load all of the data onto your hard disk, but
have to swap floppies whenever you'd want to access the data.  Kinda
like we did way back when there were no hard disks.

I know it's human nature to want it all for nothing, but this is the
real world.  If you wan't access to large amounts of data, CDROM seems
to be the way to go.

petesk@microsoft.com
My Opinions...
From: jfreter@triton.unm.edu (The Myth)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: CD ROM: Cheers and Jeers
Date: 19 Aug 92 00:57:46 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

In article <1992Aug18.222203.9593@access.usask.ca> lowey@jester.usask.ca writes:
>
>I also am thrilled about the use of CD-ROMS as a distribution method.
>I think it is long overdue.  Unfortunately, I do NOT have a CD-ROM, so
>I cannot get the NT alpha.

I also think that it is a good idea to install from one ROM vs. from many
disks.  I routinely backup my original floppies, make them read-only, then
install.  Microsoft's use of CD-ROMS has eliminated my need for this.  
Unfortunately, like many of you here in this group, I have no CD ROM.  But,
I intend to get one when I buy a 486 DX/33 that is priced under $1500
(read that as real soon now).  I also intend to add the multi-media capa-
bilities to this machine, too.  Multi-media has the potential to be the
greatest learning tool since Gutenberg invented the printing press.  The
only question is "will it?"

Since I want to have the multi-media for games, education, and other uses,
why not buy *ONE* CD to install an entire OS instead of 10, 20, or more
floppies to install the same OS?

>
>The problem isn't that Microsoft is using CD-ROMS to distribute the
>software.  The problem is that Microsoft is ONLY using CD-ROMS to distribute
>NT.  The key word there is "ONLY".

Are you sure that windows NT, when finally released as shrink-wrap, will
not be availible on floppy?  I would imagine that M.S. would release the
final version on floppies.  They're releasing the Alpha/Beta versions on
CD because it is much cheaper for them and their testers to get major 
revisions of what must, right now, be a buggy OS.  Can you imagine what 
the floppy shortage would be if they only did 5-1/4 or 3-1/2 disks for
each test version for each person?


Jerry
Xref: sparky comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy:1945 comp.os.os2.advocacy:4254
From: discar@nosc.mil (Joe Discar)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: 19 Aug 92 22:56:21 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Naval Ocean Systems Center, San Diego

In article <1992Aug19.190037.28937@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>
>Silly me, and here all this time I always thought it was the
>PURCHASERS who were supposed to be 'driving the market', not the
>sellers.  As in, Microsoft would 'push' it when consumers were
>demanding it, not Microsoft will push it on customers by offering them
>no other alternatives, whether they want it or not.
>

Then don't buy the software from Microsoft (period).  If you don't like
the SDK on CD-ROM, don't buy it.  If a lot of people don't buy it, 
the "market" will notice--and so will Microsoft.  However, I don't think
you'll find a whole lot of people who would want to buy a not-ready 
version of NT for $150 (consider duplication costs, shipping costs,
returns due to bad media, etc.).

Put another way: if Microsoft charged $310.00 for the SDK (vice $70), but
THREW IN a CD-ROM drive--would you "play"?  I personally find $69 for an
SDK (including documentation(!) online) attractive.  If a developer doesn't
feel like spending a one-time cost for a drive to read the disk, then he
can wait until the "real" release, eh?
From: leeda@comp/os/ms-windows/advocacyps.msu.edu (Dae Hee Lee)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Microsoft's discrimination against the blind
Date: 16 Aug 92 01:16:09 GMT
Reply-To: leeda@cps.msu.edu (Dae Hee Lee)
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, Michigan State University
Originator: leeda@atlantic.cps.msu.edu

crosoft is trying to discriminate the blind by preventing them from
accessing the computer.  Microsoft has already developed some versions
of MS Windows with GUI, and is now developing Windows NT. But they don't
have any plan to enable the blind to access their software at all.
  But IBM has already developed the screen reading program for OS/2 2.0
and the Presentation Manager for the blind.
  Microsoft is clearly making discrimination for the visually impaired.

Daehee Lee
Xref: sparky comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy:1900 comp.os.os2.advocacy:4146
From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: 18 Aug 92 16:26:41 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc

In <1992Aug15.010451.25474@microsoft.com> petesk@microsoft.com (Pete Skelly) writes:

>>fred j mccall 575-3539 (mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com) wrote:
>>: Yeah, but seriously, how many computers come with disk drives?  Now
>>: count how many have CD-ROM as a 'standard' part of the setup.
>>: Frankly, I was just a bit hacked off at Sun when they came out with
>>: this policy of shipping everything on CD-ROM only, and that's for
>>: workstations that are just a bit higher dollar value than the typical
>>: Intel machine.  MS doing it is RIDICULOUS.
>>

>Actually, this brings up a thought.  How many computers were there with
>disk drives 10-15 years ago.  Most of them used casette tape (PC's).

>(NOTE: use of PETE.EXE in previous sentence)

>It must have been really difficult for you to switch over to floppy disks
>from cassette.  The price difference was about equivalent to getting
>a CDROM.  The same can be said for Hard Drives.

Well, my first computer HAD floppies, but let's look at that assertion
a minute.  By switching from tape to floppy, I got faster load times,
random access reads/writes, etc.  Now, what do I get from having a
CD-ROM that might be useful to me?  The ability to load the Windows/NT
SDK.  That's it.  It's not worth buying a CD-ROM drive for.

>Would you have us still living in the world of cassette tapes for data
>storage, where load times were measured in minutes for even the smallest
>applications.

YOU CAN'T WRITE TO A FRIGGING CD-ROM!  Why is it that folks at
Microsoft don't seem to be able to understand that?  WHY WOULD I WANT
TO BUY A MASS STORAGE DEVICE THAT I CAN'T WRITE TO?

>People NOT upgrading to newer technologies is REDICULOUS, especially
>when it is cheaper in the long run.

This isn't an upgrade to a newer technology, and it is NOT cheaper for
me.  It might be much more convenient for YOU, but that's Microsoft's
problem, not mine.  I CANNOT WRITE TO A CD-ROM.  THEREFORE, THERE IS
NO REAL REASON TO BUY ONE EXCEPT FOR ARROGANT VENDORS WHO SEEM TO
THINK THEY CAN FORCE THEM ON PEOPLE.

Do you get it yet?

-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
Xref: sparky comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy:1931 comp.os.os2.advocacy:4225
From: margoli@watson.ibm.com (Larry Margolis)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: CD-ROMs and CorelDraw!
Date: 19 Aug 92 18:53:16 GMT
Reply-To: margoli@watson.ibm.com
Distribution: na
Organization: The Village Waterbed
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM

In  <weinkam.714244767@sfu.ca>  weinkam@fraser.sfu.ca (James Lawrence Weinkam) writes:
> >>What I don't like is the CD-ROM software you find in stores - they
> >>typically want over $300 for one application - even ones that sell for
> >>less money on floppy.  Corel Draw! is one example - the CD should cost
> >>LESS than the floppy version, not more - it costs about $10 to press a
> >>computer-grade CD, compared to the $0.50 per disk it costs to write HD
> >>floppies.  This gouging is giving the CD-ROM market a very bad name.
>
> I thought that the disk only version of Corel Draw came on ten disks.

The flyer on CorelDraw! 3.0 that I have says that every box comes with
a bonus CD-ROM.  Is there actually a diskette-only version, or are people
comparing the price of 3.0 and a previous version?  If the latter, then
this argument is pointless.

Larry Margolis, MARGOLI@YKTVMV (Bitnet), margoli@watson.IBM.com (Internet)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 20:26:26 GMT

In <1992Aug14.173031.4014@microsoft.com> gregde@microsoft.com (Greg Demichillie) writes:

>In article <1992Aug13.213845.3007@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>>It's not a matter of 'not needing money'.  It's a matter of needing a
>>CD-ROM. 

>I know of many places that will happily exchange the former for the latter :=)

So do I, but I, personally, have better things to do with my money
than blow it on something I don't want or need, simply because
Microsoft thinks I ought to.  I suspect that the company also has
better things to do with its money, although I certainly wouldn't
presume to speak for it.

>Seriously, operating systems and developement systems are getting so big
>and so complex that the cost of goods for distributing them on floppies
>is getting out of hand.  MS isn't the first to go the CD-ROM route. Look
>at NeXT, Sun and Apple.  They are all using CD-ROM as the preferred
>means of distrubution.  

Yes, they are.  The key word is 'preferred'.  You can still get things
on other media.

[Note that this isn't strictly true with Sun; the operating system, at
least, is ONLY available pre-installed or on CD-ROM.]

>If you don't want to have everyone in your
>company have CD-ROMS, buy one CD-ROM and multiple copies of the SDK and
>then have the one person copy from the CD-ROM to your network.  

In other words, we get to reinforce the old MIS paradigm, where 'mere
users' can't reinstall their own machines if something goes wrong
(because they don't have media that they can put in their machine).

No thanks.  I guess this is another one of those things that I'll
avoid getting, personally.  Of course, what the company decides to do
is ITS business.


-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: wiegand@rtsg.mot.com (Robert Wiegand)
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Reply-To: motcid!wiegand@uunet.uu.net
Organization: Motorola Inc., Cellular Infrastructure Group
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 13:44:06 GMT

potts@itl.itd.umich.edu (Paul Potts) writes:

>In article <1992Aug19.151306.22018@nosc.mil> discar@nosc.mil (Joe Discar) writes:
>>.
>>
>>This is the clincher... and one of the reasons I don't jump for OS/2: device
>>support.  My CD-ROM drive works fine under Windows because (as most people
>>here will point out ad nauseum) it is built on top of DOS.  I suspect 
>>that OS/2 will support my CD player in a DOS box--but I haven't tried it,
>>having given up on OS/2 when it wouldn't run my network.

>Don't bet on it. I wasn't able to get my CD-ROM drive to work in a DOS
>session under OS/2. The scenario went something like this:

>OS/2: OK, DOS is starting up, so run AUTOEXEC.BAT and CONFIG.SYS.

>CONFIG.SYS: chug, chug, chug, install, install, install...

>CD-ROM driver: Hello, system!  I'm a CD-ROM driver. What version of
>DOS are you?

>OS/2: Why, I'm not DOS, I'm OS/2 2.0!!!

>CD-ROM driver: "Help!  Imposter!  Aaarrrggghhh!!! I can't run on *you*..."

>And, of course, I was unable to use the SETVER command because OS/2 does not
>support DOS 5.0 commands...


>-- 
>"It'sVerySad / toSeeTheAncientAndDistinguishedGameThatUsedToBe / aModelOf
>DecorumAndTranquilityBecomeLikeAnyOtherSportABattlegroundForRivalIdeologies
>toSlugItOutWithGlee." (from _Chess_). -potts@itl.itd.umich.edu-

You can also start up real DOS (MS-DOS, DR-DOS, whatever) in an OS/2
window. This is different from the OS/2 DOS thats built into OS/2.
Under real DOS you *can* use the CD-ROM drivers.

I was able to use my Sony CD-ROM this way - it does work.

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Wiegand - Motorola Inc.
uunet!motcid!wiegand
Disclamer: I didn't do it - I was somewhere else at the time.
Xref: sparky comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy:1913 comp.os.os2.advocacy:4181