From: peter@global.hacktic.nl (Peter Busser)
Newsgroups: alt.bbs
Subject: Re: Coherent?
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 92 13:09:43 GMT
Organization: Global Village 1

elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley) writes:

>peter@global.hacktic.nl (Peter Busser) writes:

>> HD white label disks cost $1 here and brand label cost $2. You're buying
>> very expensive disks.
>Pay attention.  That's to buy the SLS disks with linux *already copied onto
>them*.  If we're going to have a discussion, use common sense.

You only said that disks cost $4, not that those disks were SLS disks. Ok,
you send me $40 and I'll send you the SLS disks. That saves you $20 on the
SLS price. Then you'll have a budget of $59 for one or two books.

>> Bad luck, because you really don't know what you miss...
>In your opinion...

Of course, but I know what I am talking about... ;-)))

>I suggested and implemented the
>Clarkson drivers with NCSA telnet on a trial basis, but they still went out and
>spent thousands of dollars on Wollongong.

But why? Because the software was not good enough? I don't know about
Wollongong, but NCSA telnet is a good program, I like it.

>Shortsighted?  Maybe.  They had legitimate concerns about future support.  The
>point is that they (along with many others) get a warm fuzzy feeling when they
>buy a commercially successful package that they don't get with a free system.

Ah, "warm fuzzy feeling", that's an emotional reason, not a rational one. But
what if the company drops the product. What if the company's support isn't
adequate. And finally what if the company gets out of business? So there is
no guarantee about future support, even if you buy commercial software. The
same goes for the quality of the software.

>Unfortunately, this attitude is quite prevalent in the corporate world,
>particularly in the PC world, where free exchange of source code is not common
>practice.

That is absolutely true. But that doesn't say anything about the free
software, but everything about the corporate and PC world.

>Given that Linux is a product in the PC world, it's going to have to
>fight this attitude.

And that may also be true.

>> The motives of the FSF, which is responsible for all the GNU software, is
>> written down in the GNU Manifesto. Do you really think that companies like
>> NeXT Inc., BSDI, Mt Xinu, etc. are more stupid than your clients? They ship
>> GCC with their systems, and maybe many other GNU utilities too.
>Did I say that anyone was stupid?

No, but you said that there are people who do not trust the motives of free
software.

>C'mon, stop putting words into my articles that aren't there.

I didn't. Ok then: Do you think NeXT Inc., BSDI, Mt Xinu, etc. are less clever
than you clients? Sattisfied now? :-) The question still stands.

>The companies you mentioned haven't even started to make a
>dent into the DOS-based PC world where this attitude is strong.

You weren't talking about the DOS-based PC world. You made a general statement.

>That doesn't make them bad, wrong, or 'stupid' <your term>, yet it doesn't
>make the bad attitude regarding free software go away.

Yes, it is stupid and shortsighted. To get a "warm fuzzy feeling" just for
spending a few grands is, IMVHO, stupid. There are freeware products that are
as good or even better then commercial products. The bad attitude in the
corporate and PC world doesn't make that go away.

>> But I already had the UNIX books and I didn't need 10 hours to download it. I
>> only shows that for the price of Coherent, you can have a better system with
>> more than 3 good books instead of one and still pay less. Note, this is a wor
>> kind scenario. If you don't need the books, you save yourself bucks. If you
>> can copy it from a friend you save bucks. For Coherent there is one way to sa
>> money: to not buy it.

>You, however are not the typical person who might considering buying Coherent.

Of course not, it's not even delivered with sources... <grin>

>Your scenario only shows that *you* could have a better <in your opinion>
>system and some bucks for the same money.

Sure. You don't expect me to speak for the world, do you?

>Nothing you have posted alters the
>facts regarding the cost of Linux, unless you are prepared to become a
>clearinghouse for distribution of Linux to those who can't get it easily from
>the net.

In fact, there are several clearinghouses in Holland. We call that BBSes and
they spread Linux so that people can download it at local telephone rates. At
the same time the network they are on gives the support. You see, it does work.

>> You can buy a decent manual in the book store. You can have more than 3 for
>> the price of the one that is delivered with Coherent. Any on-line documentati
>> is an additional (and often also free) help. The Dutch USENET backbone uses
>> Taylor UUCP instead of the normal UNIX UUCP because it is much better then th
>> commercial UUCP's that are bundled with UNIX.

>But you just told me Linux was free.

It still is. (This is the second time I tell this.) Free in the sense that you
can do with it what you like and that you can't deny that right to others. And
that doesn't mean gratis, even though it *can* be gratis. You really should
read the GNU Manifesto.

>Now you're saying that I can buy a book.

Yes. *IF* you want to have an upfront manual. *IF* you don't want a manual
then you don't have to buy the books and you'll save some bucks.

>Thanks for confirming my suspicions that Linux does indeed cost something.

Of course, the floppy disk you copy it on cost money and the harddisk you
install it on costs money too. But the point was that it is (or *can* be) less
then the cost of Coherent.

>You take such pride in the money you *didn't* spend on Linux. That's great.
>I'm happy for you.  There are others out in the real world who aren't so
>fortunate, and will have to spend $$$ to learn how to set up and use Linux.

Because using Linux is much like using Coherent, people also have to spend $$$
to learn and install Coherent. The big difference is the book that is delivered
with Coherent and the support that is included. But the Coherent book is not
the only book about UNIX which is usable. You can buy an equal amount of
information in the bookstore. Support can be got from the net or from user
groups etc.

>It is to those folks that Coherent is a legitimate competitor to Linux.

Yes, but I don't think those people should be using a UNIX system anyway.

>I stand by my contention that there is a case that can be made for buying
>Coherent.  Nothing you've posted alters that fact.  Linux is good, it may be
>better in some ways.  The free concept is a good one (as I've pointed out
>before).  I'm not bashing Linux here.  I'm merely pointing out that it's not
>the panacea you claim it to be.

I have never claimed that Linux is the panacea. I only said that Coherent
doesn't have anything that Linux hasn't or can't have.

>It's not free.

It *IS* free, as in the sense of the GNU Manifesto.

>It costs money.

It *CAN* be gratis and it *CAN* cost money. It depends on your situation an
what you want. Coherent always costs money.

>There are alternatives.

Fortunately yes.

>There are people who will shy away from anything that doesn't
>come in a box with a manual.

Fine! There is nothing that prohibits Linux to be distributed in a box and with
a manual (for a fee). That's what NeXT Inc. does with GCC... Hey, it's free
software.

>You may think that's silly, but it's the real world.

I know. But that is not a problem of the software. The software isn't any
different just because it comes in a box with a manual, is it?

>Mark Williams Company has identified this situation and produces a
>product which addresses those concerns.  What's wrong with that?

Nothing, but there only is no reason why we can't have the same with Linux.
The point is that there are only 2 choices with Coherent: to buy or not to buy.
If I buy Coherent, then I buy the disks, the book and the support. And all
these three cost money, but I can't buy them seperate. I don't need support,
I might want the book (although I don't need it). And I can't buy the sources.

With Linux you don't need to buy a manual. You don't need to buy the support.
And if you're lucky, you don't even have to buy a copy. Source code is
availlable. You see, there is nothing that Coherent has that Linux hasn't or
can't have.

Greetings,
Peter Busser