From: mhn@cs.brown.edu (Marian H. Nodine)
Subject: Re: Please Don't Spank!
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 16:43:50 GMT

In article <184390002@hpsemc.cup.hp.com> pt@hpsemc.cup.hp.com (Perry Taidi) writes:
>Please don't spank! Don't teach obediance! 

I teach my children obedience for one simple reason:  I practice obedience 
myself (obedience to God first, but also obedience in lesser situations to
other people).  As an adult, I found learning obedience to be a very hard
thing; for my children I hope it will be a bit easier for them but I am
under no delusions that obedience is a total piece of cake for them to learn.

As a parent, I do not demand obedience because I like authority, I teach
obedience because I have found that when I obey I have *much* greater 
freedom and also because I feel that if someday my children decide to 
follow God they will have a head start on obedience.  

In terms of freedom and obedience, since I know my bounds, I have the
freedom to explore anywhere else without running into conflicts with
whom I obey.  This holds true in my marriage as well -- once I made a
concrete decision to learn to submit to my husband (after we had been
married for nine years or so), and learned what that really meant, I
have found a lot more freedom to do what I want to do and be what I
want to be.  My husband has turned into a loving, responsible husband.
Though I view submission as fundamentally different from obedience in
certain aspects, the act of submitting *has* taught me a lot about
obedience as well.

Because I practice obedience, I have some idea of what kinds of people
are easy to obey, and what kinds of people are not.  Also, what situations
I find frustrating.  As a parent, I try my best to exercise authority in a
way that makes my children *want* to obey, not a way that makes them
resentful.  I work on teaching them not only to obey, but also how
to obey and how to respectfully appeal to someone who has authority over
them.  

>Do you use spanking to teach your child to talk? NO. She/he picks it up
>from you. She will not master it at first , but will slowly master it, if you
>spend enough time talking and interacting with her. 

Regarding spanking, I too think it is rediculous to spank a child who
is just learning a skill -- spanking in no way will help the child to
learn, only practice will.

>But we should look at their attempts  at , for example, controlling
>their  angry/happy emotions the same way we look at their attempts at learning
>to talk.

Emotions aren't the issue in my mind.  Attitude is.  A calmly stated "no" in
response to a command is just the same as a rebellious tantrum, and is
treated the same.  It's rebellion either way.  Non-rebellious frustration
or other emotions can cause tantruming as well, but it is not rebellion,
so no spank.

I take great care to watch my own attitude as well.  Especially when spanking.
This means that if I am very angry at a situation my children and I may 
separate for a tiny bit while we both get ourselves under control, then
we can proceed with a good attitude.  Thus, I *am* teaching control by example.
And if (as I have once or twice) I do give them an unwarranted spank due
to anger, I apologize *and the two of us work together towards some
act of restitution*.  For instance, I might say, "Tim, I'm really sorry
that I spanked you in anger when I shouldn't have.  I know I need to show
you that I do love you.  Would it help if we sat together, just the two
of us, and read for a while?"  I try to work towards the point where he
*can* forgive me for doing wrong.

(stuff from the original posting omitted here)

>Children that are very very well behaved, are those  that are given the room
>to grow, and are not crushed into a model.

I agree with you there, we just have a radically different definition of
"room to grow"

-- Misty

P.S.  (To the original poster)  I wanted to explain why I am sending this
reply three days after I read the original posting.  Monday I stay home
with the kids, and may get  to log on from home for a few minutes.  I
love being home with them, but it does eat into my home time at other points.
I was then up all Monday night because my husband had a kidney stone.  I
read your posting somewhere in there, and found it *very* frustrating to 
receive a plea that went against my well-thought-out discipline system,
especially when my husband was writhing in agony.  Finally he got carted
away in the ambulance somewhere (they forgot to tell me what hospital).
Fortunately the ordeal was over by about noon, but I was still to frazzled
to even attempt a civil reply.  Then Wednesday my kids had no day care,
but for some reason Mark and I both had to work.  AAAARRRRGGGGHHH.  So
all in all, the timing of your letter was for me, the pits.