HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: <KWB107@PSUVM.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: BANCMC:  DEOS-L
Originator: bancmc-m@udevdiv.unibase.sk.ca
Reply-To: <bancmc-m@udevdiv.unibase.sk.ca>
Organization: Unibase Telecom Ltd.
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 16:44:49 GMT


  - - The original note follows - -

Date: Thu, 05 Nov 92 15:05 EST
From: Theodore_E_STONE@umail.umd.edu (ts65)
Subject: Re: BANCMC:  DEOS-L #30.
>
>My name is Dana Darby, and I am a graduate student
>  at the University of Oklahoma in my first distance
>  education course...
>  I try to picture some of the uses of CMC technology
>  in third world countries, but visions of hungry
>  children keep interfering.  Are we getting the cart
>  before the horse--should the people of these countries
>  be fed and clothed before we concentrate on issues such
>as CMC, or will contact with the developed world
>through CMC be an impetus for change?

Dear Dana:

The third world is a big place and it all doesn't look like television
snippets of the famine in Somalia.  The world is increasingly a small
place.  For any society to thrive, prosper and compete in the world market,
it is imperative that the members of the society have access to training,
development and education.  In many environments, distance education is
ideal for reaching the people.

For example, if you want to train farmers in effective crop rotation, then
a radio-based course might be ideal.  However, if you want to teach health
clinics the proper use of a new antibiotic, computer-mediated instruction
may be superior.  If you want to train hydroelectric engineers in safety
interventions, then computer-based learning may be critical.

--Theo Stone
Theodore_E_Stone@umail.umd.edu
Newsgroups: alt.education.bangkok.cmc
From: <KWB107@PSUVM.PSU.EDU>
Subject: cmc recommendation for developing countries
Originator: bancmc-m@udevdiv.unibase.sk.ca
Reply-To: <bancmc-m@udevdiv.unibase.sk.ca>
Organization: Unibase Telecom Ltd.
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 17:01:34 GMT


  - - The original note follows - -

Date:    Wed, 04 Nov 92 17:58 CST
From:    ROY HOWELL 321-8255                  <DD3583@UOKMVSA.BITNET>
Subject: cmc recommendation for developing countries

In response to
           Robin Mason's question of increasing use of CMC in developing
countries, I have to say no.  Why increase use
of CMC in developing countries when we have so much trouble
with it in the United States?  I feel that we can not shove
it down their throats unless they have specified a need for
it.  I also feel that we cannot offer it until we have
solved all the problems with
           CMC in our country.
Until we do that we do not have the right to
offer a possible flawed program to a country who might
not have the funds to correct any problems that might
arisewith it.
Lori Pease,  University of Oklahoma <dd3583@uokmvsa.bitnet>
Newsgroups: alt.education.bangkok.cmc
From: <KWB107@PSUVM.PSU.EDU>
Subject: CMC in Developing Countries
Originator: bancmc-m@udevdiv.unibase.sk.ca
Reply-To: <bancmc-m@udevdiv.unibase.sk.ca>
Organization: Unibase Telecom Ltd.
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 08:02:36 GMT


  - - The original note follows - -

Date:    Wed, 11 Nov 92 19:23 CST
From:    JEANNE MATHER 224-7959               <DD5583@UOKMVSA.BITNET>
         (2503 S. 16TH)
         ( CHICKASHA)
Subject: CMC in Developing Countries

     In response to Lori Pease, who asks why increase CMC
in developing countries when we have trouble with it in
our own country?  Why not offer those parts of CMC that we
know will work well?  As we make progress with CMC, we should
share it with developing countries.  I do not think that we
need to offer flawless products, however.  If we can work with
CMC and its limitations, I'm sure developing countries could also
work with its limitations.
     I think that when we use CMC in such a way that it will cost
lots of money (no matter where the country), we should be careful
to do an analysis of the content needed to be transferred, the
target population to be served, and the type of media to carry
the communication (Stone, this conference, Nov 5, 1992)
---Mark W. Rawlinson, University of Oklahoma
Newsgroups: alt.education.bangkok.cmc
From: <KWB107@PSUVM.PSU.EDU>
Subject: CMC in third world countries
Originator: bancmc-m@udevdiv.unibase.sk.ca
Reply-To: <bancmc-m@udevdiv.unibase.sk.ca>
Organization: Unibase Telecom Ltd.
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 08:02:48 GMT


  - - The original note follows - -

Date:    Wed, 11 Nov 92 19:55 CST
From:    OLD USERS VARIOUS                    <DD0583@UOKMVSA.BITNET>
         (VARIOUS)
Subject: CMC in third world countries

I am Scott Morris at the University of Oklahoma.
I am new to the CMC field and I believe that its
potential is significant.  In third world
countries I question if they have the infrastructure
needed to support a CMC network.  If not, what about
other medium  as a Phase I introduction to distance
education.  What percent of the populace in a third
world country has a radio, television oraccess to one,
or a computer?  What about voice level telephone?
Are these medium alternatives for delivery?

Are the educational needs  intended for the entire population
or just high-density zones?  Are the needs in all areas of
education or
education or specialized in vo-tech courseware?

Will CMC best address the educational needs or is it intended
to be used in conjunction with other delivery systems?
   Scott Morris, University of Oklahoma
Newsgroups: alt.education.bangkok.cmc
From: <KWB107@PSUVM.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re:  BANCMC:  DEOS-L
Originator: bancmc-m@udevdiv.unibase.sk.ca
Reply-To: <bancmc-m@udevdiv.unibase.sk.ca>
Organization: Unibase Telecom Ltd.
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 08:02:56 GMT


  - - The original note follows - -

Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 02:16 MST
From: dano@cs.athabascau.ca (Dan Coldeway)
Subject: Re:  BANCMC:  DEOS-L #38.

A few years ago a guy in economics in the UK did an analysis of the
overall cost of the British Open University.  It was very critical
and very interesting in that it examined the OU from a more
macro societal perspective.  It was my sense that his conclusions
suggested that the advantage attributed to a degree from the OU had
a negative overall consequence to British standard of living with
respect to the target group deemed important by the Open concept
and distance delivery concept at the OU.  I suspect there are very
complicated factors that influence various socio-economic groups
as a result of expanded educational availability.  The value
that developed societies attribute to higher education may not
correspond to individual or sub-group economic benefit.  Moreover,
that same distance educational concept may not be appropriate for
developing societies (or it may) for a host of other reasons.

I will enter the reference I talked about above when I return to
my office and find it.  This topic is far reaching and I suspect
will become increasingly important over the next few years.
Dan Coldeway
Athabasca University
Newsgroups: alt.education.bangkok.cmc
From: <KWB107@PSUVM.PSU.EDU>
Subject: BANCMC:  DEOS-L#31.
Originator: bancmc-m@udevdiv.unibase.sk.ca
Reply-To: <bancmc-m@udevdiv.unibase.sk.ca>
Organization: Unibase Telecom Ltd.
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 16:55:54 GMT


  - - The original note follows - -

Date:    Wed, 04 Nov 92 17:58 CST
From:    ROY HOWELL 321-8255                  <DD3583@UOKMVSA.BITNET>
Subject: cmc recommendation for developing countries

In response to
           Robin Mason's question of increasing use of CMC in developing
countries, I have to say no.  Why increase use
of CMC in developing countries when we have so much trouble
with it in the United States?  I feel that we can not shove
it down their throats unless they have specified a need for
it.  I also feel that we cannot offer it until we have
solved all the problems with
           CMC in our country.
Until we do that we do not have the right to
offer a possible flawed program to a country who might
not have the funds to correct any problems that might
arisewith it.
Lori Pease,  University of Oklahoma <dd3583@uokmvsa.bitnet>
Newsgroups: alt.education.bangkok.cmc
From: <KWB107@PSUVM.PSU.EDU>
Subject: CMC Response
Originator: bancmc-m@udevdiv.unibase.sk.ca
Reply-To: <bancmc-m@udevdiv.unibase.sk.ca>
Organization: Unibase Telecom Ltd.
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 15:58:59 GMT


  - - The original note follows - -

Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 11:07 MST
From: Valerie Clement <VCLEMENT@UNMB.BITNET>
Subject: CMC Response
In response to comments made about CMC technology, we agree that the technology
is improving. But after experiencing pitfalls and barriers with the technology
it is apparent that the technology has a ways to go before it is transparent.

With the troubles  we have experienced here at the University of New Mexico, we
would like to offer a few suggestions for future use:

1. We recommend training and practice classes be available upon enrollment to
any CMC based courses before the start of the topic class. Perhaps a one credit
preclass, mandatory before enrollment. Experienced CMC users could test out of
this requirement.

2. We recommend access to computers be available to students who do not own
computers. Access should be unlimited and continuously available by reservation
or sign-up sheets to gaurantee access.

3. We recommend a staff assistent trained in the majority of software packages
be available on-call, and available to meet with students at the site of their
computers to answer questions for the student's particular system.

We believe these recommendations would eliviate a great many of the technical
problems we have encountered.

v Clement, Marlyn Oldknow, S Baca, G Winters
University of New Mexico, USA
JNET%"VCLEMENT@bootes.unm.edu"
Newsgroups: alt.education.bangkok.cmc
From: <KWB107@PSUVM.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Third World Countries
Originator: bancmc-m@udevdiv.unibase.sk.ca
Reply-To: <bancmc-m@udevdiv.unibase.sk.ca>
Organization: Unibase Telecom Ltd.
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 16:43:11 GMT


  - - The original note follows - -

Date:      Thu,  5 Nov 92 14:33:05 CST
From:      "ROSA FAGUNDES" <E1.RBF@ISUMVS>
Subject:   Third World Countries

Dear Dana (plus many others),
If you think that people from third qorld countries
are all nude and hungry all the time, you should open
your eyes to this very country--you will also find the
same scenery (or worst in some cases), such as yours,
that never imagined situations of hunger, illiteracy,
lack of medical assistance, etc happen here.
Third world countries have these problems, really.
But they also have technology, which are never seen
by some people in this first world country, like you.
I find an excellent idea for them to have access to
distance education.  You know, education is what makes
people to get out of the state of underdevepolment, not
the food and clothing, as these will be eaten and will
get worn out, and education will teach how to get food
and teach values that will never get worned out.
Remember the saying:
"Don't give the poor man a fish.  Teach him how to fish."
Newsgroups: alt.education.bangkok.cmc
From: <KWB107@PSUVM.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: BANCMC:  DEOS-L
Originator: bancmc-m@udevdiv.unibase.sk.ca
Reply-To: <bancmc-m@udevdiv.unibase.sk.ca>
Organization: Unibase Telecom Ltd.
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 08:01:59 GMT


  - - The original note follows - -

Date: Mon, 09 Nov 92 15:52 EST
From: Theodore_E_STONE@umail.umd.edu (ts65)
Subject: Re: BANCMC:  DEOS-L #36.

Lori Pease of Oklahoma said:

>Why increase use
>of CMC in developing countries when we have so much trouble
>with it in the United States?  I feel that we can not shove
>it down their throats unless they have specified a need for
>it.

Dear Lori:

I'm not sure who the "we" are in your assertion, but the tone of your
response sounds patronizing and condescending.  The major difference between
the third world and Oklahoma is that third world countries are not
industrialized nor do they have the infrastructure which accompanies
industrialization (acutally, I'm not sure if Oklahoma has been
industrialized or if it has the infrastructure, either.)

Aside from those complications, the issues confronting third world countries
are precising the same as those confronting industrialized countries:
improving the quality of life for the citizens, health care issues, jobs, etc.
Education -- including distance education -- plays a major role in this.

Sincerely,

Theo Stone
Theodore_E_Stone@umail.umd.edu
Newsgroups: alt.education.bangkok.cmc
From: <KWB107@PSUVM.PSU.EDU>
Subject: re: BANCMC:  DEOS-L
Originator: bancmc-m@udevdiv.unibase.sk.ca
Reply-To: <bancmc-m@udevdiv.unibase.sk.ca>
Organization: Unibase Telecom Ltd.
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 08:02:42 GMT


  - - The original note follows - -

Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 09:41:50 WST
From: Ken=Friend%IS=Staff%CURTIN@ba1.curtin.edu.au
Subject: re: BANCMC:  DEOS-L #42.

Patti,
A lot of energy and frustration is expended by teachers trying to penalise
students who cheat. It is necessary to be seen to punish and reduce abuses
of the system.  Often this is one way of maintaining standards (I personally
would prefer higher and more adaptive assessment methods). However, you have
to be absolutely sure before proceeding against possible cheaters (students
have rights).

Perhaps the most interesting aspect of graduating is gaining the confidence
that you are respected not on what you know but what you are perceived to
know.  Having got over this hurdle, anything is possible particularly if
you are getting paid Big Bucks (relatively). It is a question of motivation:
the learning or the benefits afterwards but not always both (unfortunately).

However, learning should be both enjoyable and demanding perhaps then
students would not feel it necessary to opt out of learning at
this early stage.  If students find it necessary to cheat then their may
be something wrong with student's suitabilty for higher education, the
course content, or the methods used to teach the subjects.  If the subject
content was made more relevant to each individual, they may contribute and
learn without resorting to cheating.  This is why the collaborative
interactive approach of CMC needs to be further understood.
Feedback and adaption is facilitated.

It is possible to feel cheated by the process of learning particularly if
after going through all the effort, you still feel you understand very little.

Ken friend
Sch of Info Systems, Curtin Univ of Technology, Perth, Western Australia.
Newsgroups: alt.education.bangkok.cmc
From: R.D.Mason@open.ac.uk
Subject: CMC
Originator: bancmc-m@udevdiv.unibase.sk.ca
Reply-To: <bancmc-m@udevdiv.unibase.sk.ca>
Organization: Unibase Telecom Ltd.
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 10:53:44 GMT

Thank-you to Dana Derby for putting the viewpoint of the starving children 
needing to be fed before cmc is relevant in developing countries;
and to Lori Pease for saying that we shouldn't pass on the problems and flaws 
of cmc to developing countries but should sort them out through the numerous 
applications in developed countries first.  
These are views which I have certainly endorsed myself - they seem to reflect 
the most humanitarian, non-technology led approaches to our neighbours.
However, I have seen quite a few visitors from developing countries (who come 
to the Open University to find out about distance education), and they have 
put a very different case for technology in developing countries.

1. Often they can leapfrog over problems we experience in developed countries 
because they have no infrastructure (outdated), systems and equipment.  (We at 
the OU, for instance experience many difficulties 'tacking' cmc on to our 
extensive, existing print-based system).  India has in some ways by-passed the 
developmental process of distance education in developed countries by going 
straight for satellite broadcasting of educational programmes into remote 
villages.

2. If developing countries simply sit back and wait for us to iron out all the 
problems of technologies such as cmc, they do not go through the learning 
process we do in sorting them out.  They are thus doubly disadvantaged - they 
don't have the benefits of the new technologies and they are even farther 
behind when it comes to the next technology that cmc will inevitably give way 
to.

Well, I make no claims for my depth of understanding in relation to developing 
countries, but obviously people from developing countries quite rightly do not 
appreciate the attitude that cmc is not for them because it's too expensive 
and we haven't sorted out all the problems with it yet. They would like to 
make their own assessment.  
I had hoped that we would hear from people involved with the various projects 
which I know are taking place in developing countries using cmc.  We obviously 
need their point of view in order to progress this discussion.  What is the 
case *for* the use of cmc?

Robin Mason

Newsgroups: alt.education.bangkok.cmc
From: <KWB107@PSUVM.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: BANCMC DEOS-L
Originator: bancmc-m@udevdiv.unibase.sk.ca
Reply-To: <bancmc-m@udevdiv.unibase.sk.ca>
Organization: Unibase Telecom Ltd.
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 08:02:29 GMT


  - - The original note follows - -

Date: 11 Nov 1992 17:07:00 -0500 (EST)
From: Peter Hellmonds 34002 <PHELLMONDS@worldbank.org>
Subject: Re: BANCMC DEOS-L #38 ~#
Mick Souder from St. Paul, Minnesota USA   writes:

> CMC (and CMC based DE) can be *an* answer to poverty by offering people
> in an underdevveloped region (in worlds 1-3 and a-z) an opportunity to learn
> and use marketable skills. CMC would also allow them to use thoses skills in
> their location as telecommuters.  Once the wiring goes up and the network is
> in place, there is no reason for people to *have* to move to cities for
> employment.

Unfortunately, unlike in developed countries, most countries on the way to
developing into technology-based societies are still lacking the basic
infrastructure to allow for networking. In many developing countries, the
telecommunications infrastructure is so hopelessly underdeveloped (we're talking
of phone densities of about 0.2 % in Africa as opposed to 50 % in the USA) that
the business of "once the wiring goes up and the network is in place" is the
major constraint and needs to be tackled with vehemence. Unfortunately, this
calls for high investment, and many telecom operators haven't been allowed to
charge fees high enough to generate the revenues required for self-financing of
the infrastructure development requirements.

> By the same token, a lack access to DE and CMC is in itself a kind of poverty
> that deprives people the ability to participate in the discourse of the
> world using emerging technology.

Agreed, but how are we to give them access if it requires much more than just
buying a cheap PC clone and hooking it up to a phone line simply because the
phone line isn't existing?

> The trick is helping people in underdeveloped areas to not only use CMC in
> academic settings but to transfer the CMC skills to enhance a person's
> ability to profit from the technology economically.

Please explain how you want to accomplish this trick. I'd be glad to get some
fresh insights. I don't mean to sound too pessimistic, but I'd like to hear some
concrete proposals as to how we can accomplish major (and I mean "MAJOR")
investments for many countries, considering that the benefits from the
investment accrue over a long time period, with an initial lack and later
take-off, while the bunk of investment has to come up-front.

-- Peter
(NB: I am only talking for myself and not for the organization employing me.)


Newsgroups: alt.education.bangkok.cmc
From: <KWB107@PSUVM.PSU.EDU>
Subject: Re:  BANCMC:  DEOS-L
Originator: bancmc-m@udevdiv.unibase.sk.ca
Reply-To: <bancmc-m@udevdiv.unibase.sk.ca>
Organization: Unibase Telecom Ltd.
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 08:02:17 GMT


  - - The original note follows - -


Date: Mon, 9 Nov 92 10:58 MST
From: eugene@cs.athabascau.ca (Eugene Rubin)
Subject: Re:  BANCMC:  DEOS-L #36.

Re: Lori Pease's comments regarding the difficulty of doing cmc in the U.S.....

I'm not sure that I agree with Lori's comments that "we have so much trouble
with (cmc) in the United States."  First of all, its really still a
fledgling technology in terms of its penetration of the educational
community.... thus, there aren't masny of us who have much experience
with it or know how to implement it.  One might easily make the same
comment about satelitte TV if one never used it before.  There have
been many successful applications of CMC (many of which have been
bootstrap operations with little or no budget) in a variety of
institutions in the U.S. and Canada (.... admittedly primarily on the
post secondary level).  We have been experimenting with it in course
delivery for a little while now and are getting better at it slowly
(as one whould expect from any technology).  The cost has been quite
low (considering the cost of other technologies.)  Of course, the core
issue that we face is  access to the medium....... i.e. who bears the
cost of the student's equipment.  This is a tough question...... but
will eventually resolve itself as the cost and access become more
reasonable.  I personally do not feel that communication costs are
significant factors (they may be right now, but that's because a lot
of the technology (software) requires students to be "on-line".  We
are developing a cmc system which is primarily "off-line" (e.g. only
uploads and downloads messages/information when necessary) which will
minimize "on-line" time and resultant communication charges.

Its' not so much that we seem to have trouble with the technology but
rather that we seem to have trouble investing some minimal resources
into experimenting with the medium.

Gene Rubin


  ___________________________________________________________________
 |                                                                   |
 | Eugene Rubin <eugene@cs.athabascau.ca>        Box 10,000          |
 | Centre for Distance Education                 Athabasca , Alberta |
 | Athabasca University                          CANADA  T0G 2R0     |
 |                                               403-675-6308        |
 |                                           FAX 403-675-6431        |
 |___________________________________________________________________|
Newsgroups: alt.education.bangkok.research