HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: gh@cs.toronto.edu (Graeme Hirst)
Subject: Re: Getting Faculty Position. What is the secret ?
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Toronto
Date: 30 Jul 92 14:14:01 GMT

In article <1992Jul24.215939.20329@wuecl.wustl.edu> rr2@cec2.wustl.edu (Rajamiyer Ravichandran) writes:
>>	 I generally submit a resume, copies of two recent publications,
>> a list of publications, names of three references and a brief statement
>> of teaching and research objectives. Is there anything else I can do
>> to make a better impression ? All the universities I have applied received
>> on an average 400 applications. It takes real effort and accomplishments
>> to stand alone in such a crowd. All suggestions are welcome.

=========== PART III


Good references.  No, make that great! references.  If your advisor
gives you a luke-warm endorsement, you're dead.  Which, of course, leads
to recommendation-inflation, which is like grade-inflation, only even
less fair.

In my experience, too many referees spend insufficient time and care on
recommendations, which ultimately works against the applicant.  Most of
the message in a reference is in the nuances, the exact choice of words,
and perhaps in what isn't said.  A strong, convincing reference letter
will not only tell us that you're wonderful, but will say why, listing
all the things you've done.

Weak:
	Mr Kfutz is an extremely talented neurochemist.
	I recommend him highly.

Stronger:
	Mr Kfutz is an extremely talented neurochemist.  The 
	cuisinart process of neuron extraction that he developed
	has permitted him to stain widgets in half the usual time.
	And when I told him that saffron was an inappropriate 
	modulator for synapses, he tried it anyway -- and proved
	me wrong!  


Turn-offs:

 --  Arrogant recommendations that implicitly invoke the reputation of
the school or the advisor.  "*All* students in the Stanford / MIT /
whatever Department of Neurochemistry are wonderful, because that's the
only kind we ever have, and you should bless the day he offered himself
to you for hiring."  Or: "I am a world leader in my field and all my
students are wonderful . . ."  (Of course, arrogant recommendations are
never quite this explicit, but the message often comes through.)

 --  Referees who don't know you:  "My only contact with Mr Kfutz was
when he took my course in lipochemistry, in which he finished 5th among
18 students."   If this is among the three or four best endorsements you
can muster, you're probably not going to be on my list.

 --  An advisor who doesn't really know you:  Fatal.  


-- 
\\\\   Graeme Hirst    University of Toronto	Computer Science Department
////   gh@cs.utoronto.ca  /  gh@cs.toronto.edu  /  416-978-8747
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: jbh@anat.UMSMED.EDU (James B. Hutchins)
Subject: Re: EVERYONE: PLEASE READ ALL OF THIS (Was Re: I don't get references for
Organization: Dept. of Anatomy, Univ. Mississippi Medical Center
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 03:25:56 GMT

In a fairly reasonable post, considering the circumstances, Rob Torecki (that
nutty, nutty nut from Northwestern opines:
>...
>	And in an unfortunately necessary waste of bandwidth, press "F" now
>(instead of "R") and publicly leave a few lines.  Simply state whether you
>think Mr. Dunphy's (or my, for that matter) tactics are welcome.  Nobody
>should be afraid to post here for fear of getting caught in a brawl such as
>this one you are all party to.  People have already indicated such fears. 
>Don't let attitudes like Mr. Dunphy's rob us of this very useful forum.
>			
>			Send a message. 
...
>
>						Rob

I agree, Rob.  Dr. Dunphy, will you PLEASE pipe down for a few weeks so
we can discuss things calmly and rationally?  You said yourself you had
lots of other things to do.  Go do them and leave the Usenet alone for
a while.  Your puerile whining is getting me (and I bet lots of others)
down.


-- 
Jim Hutchins                    []     E-Mail: jbh@anat.umsmed.edu
Dept of Anatomy                 []
Univ Mississippi Med Ctr        []
From: merolajs@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu (JOSEPH S. MEROLA DEPT OF CHEMISTRY VPI&SU)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Interview Experiences?
Keywords: Resumes
Date: 24 Jul 92 15:59:00 GMT
Distribution: world, local
Organization: Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, Virginia
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.40

In article <1992Jul24.020955.29781@cco.caltech.edu>, jeffp@cco.caltech.edu (Jeffrey E. Prisbrey) writes...
>This sounds trivial, I know, but:
> 
>A curriculum vita is usually pretty long.  I have been told that this
>can be a problem, that people in the real world (tm) don't like
>resumes longer than a page.
> 
>Some of the people here have experience hiring -- what are your veiws
>on resume length?
> 
>thanks,
> 
>jeffp
>..

On the academic side, the CV is indeed a long document.  In it you list every
conceivable publication, talk, etc.  I've seen some run 50-60 pages.  If the 
candidates are chosen based on weighing the CV, then this would be a winner 8-).

On the industrial side, this isn't a good idea.  Here, going over 2-3 pages is
considered poor form and that you are trying to "pad" your resume.  A resume
should list your relevant experience, your professional objectives, and the
most relevant publications.  If you want to put in a statement considering
your total number of presentations and publications to give them an idea
of your productivity, by all means do so;  but don't list them all.

Joseph S. Merola
Department of Chemistry
Virginia Tech (aks VPI&SU)
From: jbaez@riesz.mit.edu (John C. Baez)
Subject: Re: NO MORE %$#@* E-MAIL ABOUT THE JOB SITUATION
Organization: MIT Department of Mathematics, Cambridge, MA
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 19:24:49 GMT

In article <92203.135006U53644@uicvm.uic.edu> <U53644@uicvm.uic.edu> writes:
>I am beginning to woder just how stupid people can be........


Chill out!  I'm not bothering to read the rest of any article that
starts out like this!  Please buy a punching bag or something.
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: andersmh@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (ANDERSON  MIKE HOWARD)
Subject: Re: Interview Experiences?
Keywords: interview, acadmics, industry
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 16:45:27 GMT

In article <22JUL199215010797@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu> merolajs@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu (JOSEPH S. MEROLA DEPT OF CHEMISTRY VPI&SU) writes:
>
>     Perhaps I was a little unkind in jumping to the conclusion that 
>people didn't read the ads, but sometimes I have to wonder.  If your 
>area of expertise differs somewhat from the advertised area, there is 
>nothing wrong with applying provided that you explain very clearly why
>you think you are still qualified for the position.  In many of the
>cases that I described above, it was obvious that the application
>package was a generic one that the applicant sent everywhere and
>no attempt was made to show that the person seriously considered the
>area.  It is especially surprising when the areas are so dissimilar such
>as the case of a physicist applying for a position advertised for
>a synthetic organic chemist.  
>
>
>Joseph S. Merola
>Department of Chemistry
>Virginia Tech (aka VPI&SU)
>

I would like to say that the postings by Dr. Merola are a helpful
and pleasant change!

This does touch on an important point, I feel.  As Josh (??)
gave a nice example of, many people are forced to write an enormous
number of applications, i.e. over 200.  This is because the job situation
is so desperate.  To put as much thought and effort into each one is
extremely time consuming, considering that one might have a boss that
is a little miffed at the time not being devoted to their research.
This is simply a problem of too many scientists.  We can't expect anything
different from the faculty that have to review all these applications.
Out of 200 of them, why should they seriously consider the ones that
don't fit?  

The delemma:  As a postition seeker we should apply for those positions
for which we are qualified and put quality thought into the cover letters
and proposals.  For the positions we are not qualified for, as Dr. Merola
suggests, we need to put in EXTRA effort.  One can't apply for 200 positions
this way, but maybe sending out 200 form letters just burns your chances for
the 10 or so places that WOULD have interviewed you, otherwise.  Better to
do a good job on 10 applications than a mediocre job on 200!

BUT,  many don't think you've tried very hard unless you've
sent out an enormous number of applications.

Mike Anderson

ps.  The solution:  Reduce the number of graduating scientists.
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: drt@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Robert Toreki)
Subject:  Interview Experiences?
Summary: Looking for anecdotes so we can know what to expect
Keywords: interview, acadmics, industry
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston Illinois.
Distribution: world, local
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 03:53:00 GMT

	Hopefully all this unpleasantness is behind us and we can get on and
talk about some more relevant issues  :-)  <-- smiley of peace, hopefully.

	I'm looking for people's experiences with job interviews.  My interest
is academia, but given the breadth of backgrounds and experiences, I'm sure
people want to hear something related to industry.  To keep things succinct
and rolling let's try to limit things to either an overall perspective or
focus on one or two that really stand out or are representative.  Some
questions I have are:

	When you presented your previous work, did you focus on your grad
	or postdoc stuff...or maybe mix it up?

	I assume you present and/or defend your proposals.  How aggressive
	is the questioning?  Are they looking for the general goal or did
	some try to shoot you on one or two more specific points?

	How did the faculty react when you chatted with them?

	What do you think most influenced your candidacy for the slot?


	My only experience with an interview was with a national lab
postdoc _after_ they had already offered the slot to me.  The only useful
piece of advice I got was "Ditch the suit".  Aye, they are a bit more laid
back there, no? 


							Rob
From: fu@math.orst.edu (Erxuan Fu)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: SeekingJob(8+Ys Exp,Meteorology/Math/CS/OC,C,FORTRAN,Pascal,C++,Sun,IBM,VAX,CRAY,Mac,NeXT)
Date: 27 Jul 92 18:11:18 GMT
Article-I.D.: talon.1992Jul27.181118.20394
Distribution: na
Organization: Oregon State University Math Department

If interested, please e-mail me at fu@math.orst.edu.
Thanks in advance.
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: burtt@crs.cl.msu.edu (Brian Burtt)
Subject: Re: What's is like at NASA?
Organization: Michigan State University
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 01:41:28 GMT


	Regarding what life is like at NASA, I have a rather specific
question in that regard.  What type of theoretical work is done at the 
labs (such as Ames, JPL)?  I plan to get a graduate degree in physics 
or astrophysics... what type of work do such people do in NASA?
	Thanks for the info.

	--Brian Burtt
	Undergraduate major in astrophysics
	Michigan State University
From: solman@athena.mit.edu (Jason W Solinsky)
Subject: Re: Going into industry
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 02:43:11 GMT

In article <2A6EFA65.22085@ics.uci.edu>, knicholl@ics.uci.edu (Kimberly Nicholls) writes:

|> Related to this question, I'd like to know what going into industry means.  
|> If you do research, how is it different from research in academia?  If not, 
|> what would you call what you do?  I'm especially interested in hearing from 
|> people in the life sciences.

Before anybody answers this, I'd like to note that the correct answer is that it
varies TREMENDOUSLY from company to company.

Jason W. Solinsky
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: jeffp@cco.caltech.edu (Jeffrey E. Prisbrey)
Subject: A bunch of topics....
Keywords: interview, acadmics, industry
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 09:22:02 GMT

chased@rbbb.Eng.Sun.COM (David Chase) writes:
>Is the excess supply of scientists a (I'll not argue the point) a
>world-wide phenomenon, or just a U.S. phenomenon?  For some fields
>where the U.S seems to be the place to be (biotechnology, for
>instance) this might not be an option, but how about others?  Waiting
>for the pool of job-seeking scientists to dry up could take much
>longer than moving to someplace where scientists are currently scarce
>but still in demand.  (yes, perhaps this is riskier.  How risky is
>trying to get tenure?)

>David Chase
>Sun

My field is economics.  This year my school is graduating five phds, I
am one of them.  Four of us have academic positions; CalTech is very
good at placing its students.  Two of the jobs are postdocs, the other
two are tenure track positions.  Both tenure track spots are overseas.

I sent out about 80 job packets and got four interviews, none of which
panned out.  I had a few serious inquiries, none as a result of a job
packet.  They were initiated by personal contact at conferences, and by
the effective work of my advisors (i.e. their pull).

The moral? Overseas jobs are there (I know of at least two :), and
personal contact is very important.

By the way, you mathematicians, statisticians especially, might like
to think about positions in economics, your skills are directly
applicable.  I won't vouch for your chances of employment, but who
knows? 

yours,
jeffp
From: gilligan@bldrdoc.gov (Jonathan Gilligan 303-497-3861)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: Going into industry
Date: 29 Jul 92 00:40:10 GMT
Organization: National Institute of Standards and Technology

In article <2A6EFA65.22085@ics.uci.edu> knicholl@ics.uci.edu (Kimberly Nicholls) writes:
>Related to this question, I'd like to know what going into industry means.  
>If you do research, how is it different from research in academia?  If not, 
>what would you call what you do?  I'm especially interested in hearing from 
>people in the life sciences.

There's a lot of diversity. However, industrial research is declining
in this country. 

One acquaintance of mine, after finishing a postdoc in biology, took a
job with a pharmaceutical company as a technical writer and works on
preparing patent applications. I can't give much detail, but the job
is 9-5, pays well, and has zero opportunity for research. It uses her
skills in biology since she has to understand the stuff she's trying
to patent.

Another acquaintance is currently working for a small engineering firm
that's trying to develop a new technology for cooling brakes on
airplane wheels. He likes the job, but last time I talked to him, the
company was in imminent danger of going belly up.

Yet another friend took his PhD in experimental nuclear physics and
got a job as a ``systems engineer'' for ATT, where he studies traffic
on the telephone network and tries to find solutions to congestion
problems.

My thesis advisor had a friend who, after getting a PhD in nuclear
physics, went to work for Schlumberger developing neutron-activation
spectroscopy for mineral and petroleum prospecting.

And so on.

---Jon
-- 

Disclaimer --- The government probably disagrees with my opinions.
From: zavgren@doowap.ltn.dec.com (John Zavgren DTN 226-6646)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Research Careers in Europe?
Date: 28 Jul 92 13:14:57 GMT
Reply-To: zavgren@doowap.ltn.dec.com (John Zavgren DTN 226-6646)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


All:

  The idea of building a national "high-speed" data  
communications network that would be similar to our interstate highway
system has surfaced in our congress several times. (Al Gore has been
a proponent of it.) But, the chances of something revolutionary like
this getting off the ground are pretty low given the current pragmatic,
conservative adminsitration. Its a pity --- I think a project of this
nature would be an excellent catalyst for our economy, and it would inject
new blood into our computer and communications industry. (It would also
be great for me, because I'm a professional network architect and performance
analyst.)

  I was at a meeting the other day where I learned about a German project
related to their efforts to move their capital from Bonn to Berlin. They
realize that moving their government, lock, stock, and barrel would be
prohibitively expensive, so they want to build a multi-media network
that would integrate the two cities instead. Then, their politicians could work
in a "virtual capital" composed of the facilities at the two sites. 
What a clever idea! If it works, they could leverage off this network
and wire up their whole country and replace their old-fashioned centralized 
government facilities with a new geographically-distributed one that could 
keep the politicians at home and in touch with their constituencies. 

  They are willing to spend 6 Billion Deutsch Marks on this project. I think
it'll be a cold day in August when the Busch Administration coughs up money
for anything as visionary. Perhaps if Clinton and Gore win the election ...?

  I talked to a German who is writing an RFP and he claims that the
reunification of Germany and the new European Commonwealth is going
to spawn unprecedented growth in research spending.

  So, why don't we all learn to speak German, French, Italian, etc. and
move to Europe? Maybe after a few years Europe will be "down" and
American will be "up" and we can move back. In any case, it would
be quite an adventure.

John Zavgren
zavgren@school.enet.dec.com
From: moore@theory.chem.ubc.ca (Brian Moore)
Subject: Re: Getting Faculty Position. What is the secret ?
Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 19:33:49 GMT

In article <Bs7p4x.I6x@acsu.buffalo.edu> kumard@acsu.buffalo.edu (Deepak Kumar) writes:
>
>It is generally advised that you list publications under specific
>categories (Journal, Conference, TRs, etc). ...

What the heck is a TR?

But aside from that...I have 9 publications (not enough, I know, for someone
on a second post-doc, but...).  I've been listing all 9 on the second page
of my resume', and numbered as well.  I figure if they're inclined to
count, there's no reason being coy about it.  Of the 9, 3 I was only
tangentially involved in.  Would it be better to list 6, and say
'relevant publications' instead of 'publications?'  Or is it all just
so much worry about nothing, because it doesn't make a whit of difference
anyway...

--
Brian Moore
Chemistry Dept.   Univ. of British Columbia
moore@theory.chem.ubc.ca
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: bhat@ccad.uiowa.edu (Dinkar N. Bhat)
Subject: Jobs in Comptuer Vision.
Organization: CAD-Research, University of Iowa, Iowa City
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 04:29:11 GMT

Somedays back, somebody mailed saying jobs in theory were few
and jobs in systems were aplenty. But no mention of Computer
Vision. Can anybody suggest if it is a good idead to go into
Vision especially with the defence budget shrinking. Thanks
a lot.

Dinkar.
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: mvanheyn@silky.cs.indiana.edu (Marc VanHeyningen)
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
Subject: Re: NO MORE %$#@* E-MAIL ABOUT THE JOB SITUATION
Date: 29 Jul 92 04:31:53 GMT
Reply-To: mvanheyn@whale.cs.indiana.edu
Organization: Computer Science Dept, Indiana University
X-Quoted: 25%

Thus said duggan@cc.gatech.edu (Rick Duggan):
>Wait.  I thought you just said these were "impossible" to get, not
>"almost impossible."  If you can't figure it out for yourself,
>there is a huge difference in these two statements.  

Well, sort of.  It is "almost impossible" to make a successful career
out of playing the lottery; I don't think most people would quibble if
you called it simply "impossible."

(Hmmm.  I wonder how close we're getting to the point where the average
payoff of a lottery ticket is greater than the average payoff of sending
in a c.v. for a tenure-track position?)
-- 
Marc VanHeyningen     mvanheyn@whale.cs.indiana.edu     MIME accepted
Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away before all these
things take place.
		- Jesus, more than one generation ago
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: romanzin@cs.ubc.ca (Chris Romanzin)
Subject: Commentary on recent postings
Organization: Computer Science, University of B.C., Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 19:55:32 GMT


I generally dislike posting my opinions on matters not directly related
to the newsgroup, but I have witnessed such a great number of bitter,
generally irrelevant postings lately that I think we all deserve
equal time on the soapbox.

Everyone:

If you are about to post an article, STOP.  Think.  Think about
why anyone else cares about what you are about to say.  Is there
even a *hint* of hostility or bickering in your posting?  If so,
DO NOT POST IT.  To do so only lowers other's respect for you and your
words.  Calm down, go have your favourite beverage.  

Mr Dunphy: 

You make a number of good points in your postings, which prompt me
to think about issues I otherwise might not; however, these points
are often lost in your hostile, lengthy diatribes.  Personally, I no
longer read your postings, and I suspect I am not alone.  This is obviously
not to be desired from anyone's perspective, since it limits discussion.
So please, try to be more civil and please do not assume that you must
comment on every topic.  I am not trying to attack you, only to give
which I believe to be productive advice.

Can we now return to useful, intellectual discussion, everybody?

Flames will be ignored.

--
   Chris Romanzin       Spreads up to 30% further than regular butter
 romanzin@cs.ubc.ca 
Newsgroups: sci.research.careers
From: eiverson@nmsu.edu (Eric Iverson)
Subject: Re: Getting Faculty Position. What is the secret ?
Organization: Computing Research Lab
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 05:25:50 GMT

In article <1992Jul24.215939.20329@wuecl.wustl.edu> rr2@cec2.wustl.edu (Rajamiyer Ravichandran) writes:

>	 I generally submit a resume, copies of two recent publications,
> a list of publications, names of three references and a brief statement
> of teaching and research objectives. Is there anything else I can do
> to make a better impression ? All the universities I have applied received
> on an average 400 applications. It takes real effort and accomplishments
> to stand alone in such a crowd. All suggestions are welcome.

You're right, it does take real effort.  It takes time and patience,
lots of research, and possibly even securing the services of a private
detective.  But fear not, eventually you might turn up something that
you can use to blackmail the head of the department.  You'll stand
alone in the crowd just fine armed with pictures of him and his prize
student "in conference."  Of course, this doesn't work all the time.
But remember, men of greatness often have flaws to match.  Happy
hunting.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Iverson				Internet: eiverson@nmsu.edu
Computing Research Lab
Box 30001/3CRL				Life is something to do when
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