HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lowry@watson.ibm.com (Andy Lowry)
Subject: Re: 20/20 and Spanking
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 03:35:24 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

In article <1992Nov10.213616.2227858@locus.com> judy@locus.com (Judy Leedom Tyrer) writes:
 > One of the problems I have noticed with this group is that we are
 > long on memories of inflammatory posts and short on memories of
 > supportive posts.  Anyone who has been at the flame end of the net
 > will understand what I mean.

I've been flamed (even mildly by you), and I've flamed, and it's
happened both on the net and off.  On the net it's a little trickier.
For one thing misunderstandings can't usually be corrected in less
than a day, and a lot of resentment can build up in a day.

So on the one hand I'd say your point's well taken in that it's a
reminder for everybody to be especially wary of anything we infer from
other people's posts, and even a good deal of what we think they come
right out and say.  On the other hand, I don't really think the net is
any less kind and forgiving than most other social situations I've
encountered.  It's pretty universal.  If you speak up on controversial
issues, some people are going to resent you for it, no matter what it
is you say.  And some of those people will never forget.

I'm not saying you're wrong in hoping for a kinder and gentler net,
but I hope you won't stop posting if it doesn't come to pass.  I know
from personal experience how a few incoming flames can put a damper on
an otherwise bright day, and I've also been frustrated at my inability
to get past some people's first impressions.  But I'm sure there are a
lot more people here (I'm one) who value your participation than that
wish you'd pack up and leave.

David Shackleford... now him I don't know about... (only kidding
David... To paraphrase Jay Leno, "post all you'll like, we'll flame
some more." :-)
--
Andy Lowry, lowry@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7925
IBM Research, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Newsgroups: misc.kids

I cannot believe that you have continued to let this incompetent Millie
draw your blood.  If a nurse is not capable of doing her job then you,
as a paying customer (whether you or your insurance company pay) are
fully entitled to say no to her/his incompetence!!!!!  Absolutely refuse
to let Millie touch you again and insist the clinic provide someone 
competent.  You are not responsible for Millie's job and continued employment,
Millie is and is if she is not doing her job then maybe she should not be
allowed to continue to do her job.  Don't let yourself be clouded by these
simpathies when it comes to your health.

During the birth of my son 21 months ago the LDR staff had a student nurse
attempting to do something as simple as take my blood pressure and 
temperature, all while I was in active labor.  After the second time of
her not being able to get my blood pressure, and after watching her read
the blood pressure cuff directions for the second time, I threw her out
and told her not to come back.  I told the head nurse that only a qualified
nurse was allowed to work on me.  Period.

Millie is incompetent and is hurting people.  This should not be allowed to
continue for one more day.

jrh
From: ck270@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Andrea Von Ahnen)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: Child Security and Childcare (was Re: 20/20 and Spanking)
Date: 9 Nov 1992 18:00:43 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


I'm sorry I don't know to get this system to include text, so:
   
Mark Wuest wrote about a child at his church's childcare who was
very upset about being left with a room full of strangers while
his aunt and/or parents attended church services.  He felt that
because of the child's strong reaction (screaming, crying) to 
being left, there might be something wrong with his homelife.
   
Strong attachment to parents is a *good* thing.  Preferring to
be with parents rather than people a child doesn't know is
normal.  I'd be more concerned about a small child who has no
qualms about being left in childcare for the first few times,
than about child who is obviously bonded with his parents.  For
the church to not allow parents in the childcare room at all means
they care more for their own convenience than for what's good for
parents and children.  Why don't they want parents in there?  Is
something going on that they don't want parents to see?
     
Andi  (Mom to Aaron, Alexander, and triplets due 3/3/93)
From: breegge@fracas.network.com (Sharon L. Breeggemann)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: tape recorder for a 2.5 year old
Date: 12 Nov 92 22:45:11 GMT
Organization: Network Systems Corporation

Traffic Jams is by Joe Scruggs.  He also has Bahamas Pajamas and several
other good tapes.
From: tigger@satyr.Sylvan.COM (Grace Sylvan)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: Incongruent discipline philosophies (Was: Re: 20/20 and Spanking)
Date: 10 Nov 92 21:14:50 GMT
	<4893@crl.LABS.TEK.COM> <1992Nov9.001315.6414@umr.edu>
Distribution: na
Organization: Sylvan Associates

In article <1992Nov9.001315.6414@umr.edu> davem@mcs213k.cs.umr.edu (Dave Mentis) writes:

   I still have instances where I have to repeat myself a million times,
   in a cheery, repetitive, eventually monotone voice

   "Dava, put the cat down and come inside. It's time to eat/too late to play/
    too cold , etc..."

   "Dava, (ad nauseum) ... "

   Sometimes I'm probably too patient.
   Sometimes I'm probably too lenient (sp?).

We've had some bouts with that, too. I think it's important to limit
the amount of times you ask, and then take action (in the coming
inside one - just pick her up and bring her inside). Otherwise the
child gets used to you waiting around for them to decide if they are
going to listen to you, and you'll be repeating yourself a lot.

You might want to request only ONCE. Wait for her to respond (10
seconds, not 5 minutes, she'll have forgotten the first request by
then!). If she doesn't, then address any issues - like "I know you
love to pet the cat, but it's time to say 'goodbye kitty' and come
inside'. (or we'll pet the kitty again later/tomorrow or whatever). I
found that when Kathy was 2, saying 'goodbye' to things she didn't
want to leave helped her. Then, if she still doesn't respond, you say
'do you want to walk inside yourself, or do you me to carry you'. If
she doesn't start walking, then pick her up.  In the course of this,
you've given her at least *3* opportunities to take herself inside
before you carry her.  That's *plenty*, even for a 2 year old.

Good luck!
-- 

Tigger (Grace Sylvan)                Mom of Katherine Yelena, 8/8/89,
tigger@satyr.sylvan.com              Corey 1/31/91; we loved him so,
                                     Robin Gregory born 2/28/92

 "It seems to me that our large goal is to find the ways to help our
 children become humane and strong."
 
              - Dr Haim Ginott quoted by Adele Faber & Elaine Mazlish
From: elise@ticipa.pac.sc.ti.com (Elise Wade)
Subject: Re: A Balanced Diet (Was Re: Halloween Stories)
Organization: Texas Instruments
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 19:54:17 GMT

In article <1992Nov6.214712.21269@crd.ge.com> vivier@hamal.crd.ge.com (Barbara Vivier) writes:
[ ... ]
>
>So:
>
>1) if one adopts the attitude of letting them eat whatever and whenever
>they want, how does one avoid making separate meals for them and having
>wasted food when they choose other foods than the ones you've just prepared?

Well, I can never make exactly the right amount of food, so usually I
have a little left over anyway.  Just because my 4 yr old (not an issue
with the 5 month old yet) doesn't eat doesn't make that much difference
in the left over quantities.  Sometimes I end up throwing out left overs
but I generally use most of them later for "redone" dishes.

So, if Sabrina doesn't eat (& sometimes she doesn't) no big deal.

>
>2) if they want to snack on even "healthy" foods 10 minutes before dinner,
>what happens when the rest of the family sits down to dinner?  (or is that
>a myth about the family dinner?)

Well, generally, I explain that dinner is almost ready.  If we are
having something Sabrina is fond of, usually knowing that makes a
difference.  If I need to prepare something, Sabrina is content to
wait if she gets to "help".  Sometimes she is *really* hungry, then
I go ahead & give her a small snack. (e.g. a few slices of apple
instead of a whole one).  Very rarely has this policy resulted in
Sabrina not eating dinner because she's full.

>
>3) How does one encourage (but not force ;-) ) a child to try new foods?

Sabrina goes grocery shopping with me & I encourage her to learn
the names of the foods available in the store. We talk about how
you can cook different things, where food comes from, and what
it would taste like.  Sabrina gets to pick 2 things she wants,
& I often give her choice on what vegetables we will fix that week.

For example, she thought the brussel sprouts looked neat in the 
store.  We talked about them some & I bought them.  When I fixed
them later that week, the immediate reaction was "these are yucky,
I don't want any!"  I reminded her of the grocery trip, and asked
if she'd like to try one to see how it tasted after all.  Sabrina
agreed, & found she *really likes* them.

I think "helping" with the cooking is another sure way.  Sabrina
is always more interested in foods she "helped" to cook.

Overall, I try to cook a great variety of foods, and give Sabrina
the idea that different foods and new foods are fun.
>
>
>I do believe in the philosophy presented.  We need help with the
>implementation details.
>
>thanks,
>
>Barbara

Hope this helps, 
Elise.
From: tigger@satyr.Sylvan.COM (Grace Sylvan)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: Please Don't Spank!
Date: 13 Nov 92 00:44:36 GMT
Organization: Sylvan Associates

In article <184390003@hpsemc.cup.hp.com> pt@hpsemc.cup.hp.com (Perry Taidi) writes:

   Yes we disagree on spanking but agree on needing limits. Although I believe
   the limits should not be the ones that are made up for the benefit of parents
   (such as "play quietly in your room" cause I prefer a quiet evening watching
   the news after a hectic day at work) , but real ones that they need to learn
   in order to survive and live better.
                           ^^^^^^^^^^^

I will add that I believe it's reasonable for parents to set some
limits (rules) based on their own preferences. Of course, the child's
needs should be taken into account, too, as well as if it's an age
appropriate request. But my kids are usually not allowed to run
through the house screaming while playing, etc. Those are 'outside'
noises and games. I don't punish them if they do it, but I remind them
of the desired behaviors, and if they *WANT* to yell and scream, they
have the choice of something quieter inside or taking their play
outdoors.

Now, the parent should be aware which rules are safety rules, which
are society adjustment rules, and which are rules for the parent's
benefit. Actually, I think it's important that the parent take some of
their wants and needs into consideration - after all, they are living
there, too. All the wants and needs of all the people living together
should be examined, and win/win solutions be created whenever
possible. 
-- 

Tigger (Grace Sylvan)                Mom of Katherine Yelena, 8/8/89,
tigger@satyr.sylvan.com              Corey 1/31/91; we loved him so,
                                     Robin Gregory born 2/28/92

 "It seems to me that our large goal is to find the ways to help our
 children become humane and strong."
 
              - Dr Haim Ginott quoted by Adele Faber & Elaine Mazlish
From: dsegelho@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Diane Segelhorst)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Eating Healthy (was Re: Halloween Stories
Date: 5 Nov 92 13:53:00 GMT
Reply-To: dsegelho@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Diane Segelhorst)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Annapolis Detachment, CDNSWC

In misc.kids, judy@locus.com (Judy Leedom Tyrer) writes:
>Well I don't know about cute, but will you accept proud?  Ron and I read
>a study on eating disorders that advised the best way to raise children
>was to let food be food and not label some things like vegetables "good
>food" and other things like candy "bad food".  Just let kids eat what they
>want when they want.  We were both raised in more traditional households
>where you had to finish dinner to get dessert and candy was rationed and
>we both had weight problems as children (Ron hasn't gained a pound since
>7th grade, but he's added 2 feet and he's not skinny).
>
>Well, everyone we know says "Oh, that only works if the only food in the
>house is healthy food."  They won't believe me when I explain that Mitchell
>will often choose an apple or a banana over a candy bar or that he will

Bravo!  This is what I am attempting to do also.  I grew up in a "clean
your plate" home.  I STILL tend to finish everything on my plate, even
when I am no longer hungry, and I have always had weight problems.

I do have a couple of rules I would like to instill in my children though.
(I'm meeting with limited success so far.)  One is that you must take
at least one bite of everything served - you can't say you don't like
it without at least tasting it.  The other is that the kids have to
sit with us at the table for at least some amount of time.  I'm trying
to instill in them the sense of mealtime as a social event as well as
just food.

I absolutely WILL NOT bribe my kids to eat with the promise of sweets.
If dessert is being served that night (and it usually isn't) it is just
one more course, and there is no reason why not eating one course (meat,
for example) eliminates the dessert.

The interesting thing is that the books are right!  Over the course
of a week, Brad eats a fairly nutritious blend of things.  However,
last night for dinner all he ate was rice.  The night before, all he
ate was his meat.  The night before that, just the apple from his fruit
salad.  I guess he is a one-food-group-per-meal type kid!

Diane Segelhorst
dsegelho@oasys.dt.navy.mil
Mom to Brad, 2 1/4 years, and Carrie, 4.5 months
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: njamal@unix.amherst.edu (Nuhad Jamal)
Subject: Re: Long-sleeved Onesies
Organization: Amherst College
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 15:57:08 GMT

Maureen Busch (mbb@keps.kodak.com) wrote:
: [Apologies to the select few who saw this the first time I posted it]
: 
: I was recently looking for some long-sleeved onesies for shower/baby gifts.
: I had some when my now 4YO was a baby, and thought they were great.  I couldn't
: find any, and was wondering whether anyone has seen long-sleeved onesies by
: Gerber or any other manufacturer.  Are they non-existant or just harder to
: find?  Thanks a lot.
: -- 
: Maureen Busch
: Internet: mbb@keps.com	<--note new address!
: UUCP: ...!uunet!munsell!cairo!mbb (I think)
: DISCLAIMER:  The opinions expressed are mine, not my employer's.

I just bought some long sleeve onesies and they were Carter's.  They
were colorful and 100% coton...they were not as inexpensive as the
short sleeve ones though.

Nuhad Jamal
njamal@amherst
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: mhn@cs.brown.edu (Marian H. Nodine)
Subject: Spanking and toilet training
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 16:21:40 GMT

In article <2NOV199212451459@eldyn.gsfc.nasa.gov> goldberg@eldyn.gsfc.nasa.gov (Patti Twigg) writes:
>I went to a seminar 2 weeks ago about alternatives to physical
>punishment for kids, and the speaker said potty training is the
>number one reason given for physical child abuse. I can believe
>that!!

In article <1992Nov04.012916.2218325@locus.com> judy@locus.com (Judy Leedom Tyrer) writes:
>I can't.  I mean, potty training is really easy if you let it be the child's
>responsibility and not yours (etc, etc) Sure,
>you'll have some accidents to clean up, but what's a little urine or poop
>on the floor (or in your shoes, for that matter)?

Well, I can agree with Patti -- how provoking when your child discovers
his poop in his pants and smears it on the walls, or when he decides to
use toilet training as a tool to get out of disciplinary actions (you put
me in timeout and I'll pee in my pants!).

Not that spanking is always an appropriate thing to do here -- just
*very* tempting.  Cleaning up after himself helps -- you put poop on
the walls, you clean it up.  Here's the bucket and sponge.  You pee
during timeout, you clean it up after timeout.

>Erin was toilet trained all summer.  But she doesn't have the dexterity to
>pull pants on and off and now that she has to be in clothes she wants to
>be in diapers as well.  She just toileted so she could go naked.  No problem.
>We have until next September when she starts school so we put her back
>in diapers.  I thought she was too young anyway.  She's only 2 and 4 mos.

Just a comment -- why don't you instruct her on pulling her pants down
and up?  Get very loose-fitting training pants and loose-fitting
sweatpants.  Show her where to put her hands.  Manually guide her
in pulling her pants up and down.  When she starts to get the hang of
it, move to coaching her -- "Reach in the back and pull up on the
elastic".  Teach her to ask for help when she gets frustrated (don't
just move in and help her -- let her struggle, then ask at her own pace).
She should be just fine.  We started doing this with Anna
when we started to toilet train her, and now she not only pulls her
pants up and down, she almost always wants to undress and dress herself.
I have made her fall wardrobe such that all of the clothes are easy to
put on, and she *loves* it.  And she will be 2 in December (brag, brag).

-- Misty
From: RABINOWITZ@BEAR.COM (Ari)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: a new fun thread??
Date: 6 Nov 92 15:29:54 GMT
Organization: BEAR STEARNS & CO.
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24

In <Nov05.191655.57148@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> bh437292@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu writes:

> In article <1992Nov5.185056.28543@cbnews.cb.att.com>, klj@cbnews.cb.att.com (karen.l.carr) writes:
> |> In article <1d99f1INNdl8@mizar.usc.edu>, biddleco@mizar.usc.edu (Susan Biddlecomb) writes:
> |> > Has anyone accused you of kidnapping your daughters? 
> |> 
 
> I am rather dark skinned and my wife is as white as a sheet, so our
> daughter had dark black hair and olive skin when she was born.
> Since my wife is blond, when she would go out in public with Kelsey,
> without me, people would ask her if she was adopted.

My wife and I are white and our son Jake is clearly bi-racial, so we
have always been getting comments like that.  Once I was having dinner
with Jake at a MacDonalds when a little old lady came up to us and asked
if I was a big brother.  It took me a while to realize what she meant,
but I answered "No, I'm his father."

On another occasion Jake was having a four year old tantrum in the
street as we were returning from a play date he had had with a friend.
He was making such a fuss as we passed a pizza store that a police
officer came out of the store to ask what the problem was.  It wasn't
clear whether the police man thought I was hassling Jake or he was
hassling me, but the officer clearly thought that we weren't together.

Fortunately, Jake was more afraid of making a scene in front of the
police officer than he was angry at me, so he started to clutch me and
call me dad.  Otherwise I'm sure the officer would not have believed me
when I said I was his father.

Ever since Jake was an infant we have had people stop us on the street
to say how good looking he is.  Recently I was carrying him on my
shoulders, not an easy feat since he is 48" tall and weighs about 60
pounds, when a woman stopped us to tell us that he looks just like
Bryant Gumbel (sp?).  I'm not sure if that was a compliment or not.

Ari (Father to Jake, 5 Years old, and Anna, 2-1/2 Years old)

Ari Rabinowitz                  rabinowitz@bear.com for VMS and personal mail
WorkStation Administrator	ari@bear.com for sun/HP Un*x mail
Bear Stearns
From: davids@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com (David Schwantner)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: 20/20 and Spanking
Date: 5 Nov 1992 12:12:20 -0800
Organization: Hewlett Packard, San Diego Division
NNTP-Posting-Host: hpsdde.sdd.hp.com

In article <25830@optima.cs.arizona.edu> bweiss@cs.arizona.edu (Beth Weiss) writes:
>BTW, I was spanked (in today's terms, it would be beaten--it might even
>have been then), and I am well-adjusted.  My brothers, who were beaten
>more, aren't.  And there is _still_ a lot of resentment towards my
>mother for her physical abuse--using her power to try and make us
>behave.  Love, affection, and respect are much better motivators than
>fear.

Your statement shows that semantics are important here. When one person says
"spanking", they might mean smacking the kid across the face when they are not
looking. Another person may mean using a small switch to give a stinging 
sensation on the back of the leg or palm of the hand (with no intention of
bringing physical damage), and another person may mean turning a child over
your leg and slapping a child on its bottom until its red.

You obviously did not have a good experience with spanking, and this experience
(like most people who have strong opinions on this subject) shapes your image
of what people are meaning and doing when they talk about spanking. 

This whole business has encouraged me to get down in writing (won't the social
workers love that :-)) my wife and my guidlines for why we will or won't
spank. Spanking is only one small part of a whole way of life of training,
and discipling our children. The first and far excedingly most important part
is showering them with love and appreciation and approval and praise.

Now, to take this thread on a side twist, what do people think about this
statement (I will leave it un qualified or explained so as to leave it open
for interpretation 9:-)):

A parent needs to be a childs external control until they can help the child
develop its own internal controls.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
David Schwantner - Hewlett-Packard - San Diego Site
Internet : davids@hpsdde.sdd.hp.com / davids%hpsdde@sdd.hp.com
Slow path: 16399 W. Bernardo Dr., San Diego, CA 92127, USA
Disclaimer: All opinions expressed here are the sole resposibility of the  
author, and therefore are neither shared, owned, nor payed for by H-P. 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: seanna@bnr.ca (Seanna Watson)
Subject: Re: 20/20 and Spanking 
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 21:23:30 GMT

In article <1d7de9INNdja@network.ucsd.edu> dlin@weber.ucsd.edu writes:

  >                     Logical consequences are great, IMHO.  Also,
  > once our son was old enough to help clean up messes, a natural
  > consequence of throwing food or making other messes, would be to 
  > help clean it up.  

Unfortunately, this isn't always a negative consequence.  My boys have
always really enjoyed cleaning (can't imagine *where* they got that from:).  
So making this a natural consequence would have had no deterrent effect,
 and might even reinforce the negative behaviour.  (My guys are beyond
food throwing now, but when they were, I used the "oh, you must be finished
with that" logical consequence (and tried to avoid leaving anything offensive
on their plate/tray).

-- 
Seanna Watson   Bell-Northern Research, 
(seanna@bnr.ca) Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Opinions, what opinions?  Oh *these* opinions. | It's hard to seize the
No, they're not BNR's, they're mine.           | day when you must first
I knew I'd left them somewhere.                | grapple with the morning.
Newsgroups: misc.kids