HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: carlton@husc10.harvard.edu (david carlton)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Lop-Sided NO Votes (Re: RFD: rec.music.enya)
Date: 10 Apr 92 05:03:54 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc10.CARLTON.92Apr9220354
Distribution: na
Organization: Citizens for Boysenberry Jam
In-reply-to: twpierce@amhux1.amherst.edu's message of 9 Apr 92 01:36:05 GMT

In article <1992Apr9.013605.528@amhux2.amherst.edu>, twpierce@amhux1.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) writes:
> In article <1992Apr8.154401.6252@cbnews.cb.att.com> nrc@cbnews.cb.att.com (N. Richard Caldwell) writes:

>>Warm up your NO votes, folks.  Let's set a record for lop-sided NO
>>results.

> What is the record for this, incidentally?  The most extreme example I
> can think of was soc.bi, which passed 350:50 or something like that.

Comp.os.linux passed with something like a 500:5 ratio recently.  The
fewest number of NO votes that I can recall offhand.

david carlton
carlton@husc.harvard.edu

       While my BRAINPAN is being refused service in BURGER KING,
       Jesuit priests are DATING CAREER DIPLOMATS!!
From: thwang@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Tommy Hwang)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga vs. rec.arts.comics.manga
Date: 8 Apr 92 22:28:36 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center

In article <v=rjaq#@lynx.unm.edu> lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble) writes:
>This is true *only in Japan*.  In the rest of the world, "manga" refers
>specifically to *Japanese* sequential art.

     A slight correction.  I am from Taiwan, and I know that we 
refer to comics/mangas as "sequential art" (translated of course) as 
well.  Unfortunately, I have no idea on how to spell it.  Just some info. 

>since manga are a type of comics, the manga newsgroup belongs in the

     Unfortunately I have to disagree, manga is not a type of
comics nor is comics a type of manga.  I personally view them equally.

                                                    -TKH '92

P.S.  Lets just get the vote over with.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
      "Zu dem Tag wollte Ich zurueckkehren."  (emphasis on 'to that day')
      "Ich wollte zu dem Tag zurueckkehren."  (emphasis on 'want')
 "Ich wuenschte Ich koennte zu dem Tag zurueckkehren." (emphasis on 'wish')
                                                 -both KOR movie title.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jkim@jingoro.Eng.Sun.COM (Jun Kim)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: rec.arts.manga...etc.....
Date: 9 Apr 92 22:19:42 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: jingoro

In article <cbsj29n@lynx.unm.edu> lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble) writes:
>
>(I don't want people to take this as a nasty comment, really, but I have to
>wonder how many of the people who are arguing for rec.arts.manga are
>non-native speakers of English who aren't interpreting words like "comics",
>"manga", and "anime" in the same way that most native speakers would.)
>
>--
>Lazlo (lazlo@triton.unm.edu)

Now I think that you are treading on some very thin ice.  I did not 
appreciate your post in alt.manga where you proceeded to call the
suppporters of r.a.manga people suffering from "bigotry".  But, that
kind of bloodiness was something unnecessary in this discussion, at least
I thought so until now.  

What kind of statement are you making with that "non-native" comment?

Are you calling me "ignorant" of the English language?  Just because I
wasn't born here?  I'm really sorry to hear you make a comment like that.
Furthermore, manga and anime are foreign terms which were translated 
into English, and I for one would like to see it properly translated,
instead of being pushed into a category by people who have not been 
exposed to the environments in which they were created.  

And since you are now discussing working definitions such as "book"
vs "comic book" and such, you should first know that the dictionary
definition of "book" can easily pertain to a "comic book".  Now,
both you, and everybody else who can speak and spell perfect English,
should know that under common usage, we normally wouldn't associate those
things very closely.  Secondly we note that such associations do not
exist here on the net.  I feel that the definitions of "comics" under
common usage here on the net strongly emphasizes the western
sequential art form, differentiating itself from the dictionary definition
of such that you are so eager to defend.  Well, with that in mind,
can you see how in common usage by people who use the term "manga"
would see "manga" as different from the working definition of
"comics" on the net?  It is analogous to the "book" / "comic book"
reference above.

I'm asking you to consider these facts, and to leave your
"holier than thou" attitude about the English language, at
home, where they might impress someone.

 




--
Jun Kim                                         jkim@jingoro.Eng.Sun.Com
Sun Microsystems
Mountain View, CA                               "Oboete imasu ka..."
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: awozniak@zeus.calpoly.edu (The WOZ)
Subject: Re: Um, okay, I did it.
Organization: California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1992 06:38:07 GMT

(Lydia Leong) writes:
>
>I don't understand the purpose of creating an alt.mud.diku. Do you
>just have some kind of objection to an "official" Diku group, or what?
>It's still an extra newsgroup, and its purpose would still be to get Diku
>traffic out of r.g.m. and into its own group. If there's enough interest
>for this, why not try to create an official newsgroup? (presuming we
>decide to split this group at all).
>

That's just it; there would be no purpose for an alt.mud.diku
alt.mud.tiny has been around for quite some time, and the volume of posts is
practically zero.  This would seem to indicate a rec.games.mud.tiny would
also have a low volume of articles.  Jason Downs merely suggested trying a
alt.mud.diku to see what would happen.  I would guess it have as much
traffic as alt.mud.tiny; none.

-- 
: main me @ trigger @ desc setdesc me @ swap notify ;
( a viral description muf program.  make everyone look     )
( just like you!  ///  awozniak@morpheus.calpoly.edu       )
(    Lord Knight Errant Grammer Checker of the B.E.M.      )
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.sys.novell reorganization
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1992 04:58:39 GMT

In <1992Apr16.145305.28293@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>
 geoffb@coos.dartmouth.edu (Geoff Bronner) writes:

>In <1992Apr15.131131.13733@rhrk.uni-kl.de> weber@rhrk.uni-kl.de
 (Christoph Weber-Fahr [KIT]) writes:

>>As I said before. The reorg discussion should not be carried mainly by
>>the net.enthusiasts who read news.groups, but mainly by the people who
>>are affected by the split.

>Sorry, wrong. The guidelines for news group creation clearly state that
>all discussion should take place in news.groups. This is why the moderator
>of news.announce.newgroups sets the followup-to: line to news.groups when
>he posts the RFD.

>The discussion is intended to cover not only the content of the groups(s)
>being discussed but if the proposed name is appropriate etc etc. 
>This also allows people who wish to only vote to avoid the discussion all
>together. Anyone who wishes to have input on the discussion should take
>the time to move to news.groups. The group is busy but with the proper
>kills and selects it is easy to pick out the subject thread you care
>about.

	My header indicates this will stay in comp.sys.novell, which is what
I am noping will happen.  In any event, I take exception with the above.
We had a discussion in another group a few  months ago where the discussion
proved *the group itself up for split* did not think it worthwhile.  In my
reading of Emily Post, crossposting is only required when a proposal has
been made and all the deadlines determined.  I saw this on here, but I am
willing to let it go; in other groups we discuss things before proposing
a solution that benefits only the poster.  Give me an external modem, with
V32.bis, V42.bis, and MBP 1-5 and I'll vote for any group you care to
propose so long as it can be unsubscribed to... ;-)  Failing that, I find
this group small enough that it is one of my least cumbersome groups to
follow and read.

<Daniel R. Sorenson   Dod #1066  |If Iowa State University agreed with me >
<z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu <- work |I'd make $90K/yr.  They don't, I don't. >
<viking@iastate.edu      <- play |"I am *not* goofing off.  I am driving  >
< myself mercilessly in the pursuit of relaxation." -- T. Weeds           >
Organization: Wirtschaftsuniversitaet Wien, Vienna, Austria
Date: Thursday, 16 Apr 1992 20:03:37 WUT
From: Gerhard Gonter <GONTERNN@awiwuw11.wu-wien.ac.at>
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: isn't it time to create soc.culture.net ?

the subject says it all ...

best wishes, Gerhard Gonter

+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
Gerhard Gonter                                   <GONTER@AWIWUW11.BITNET>
Tel: +43/1/31336/4111   Fax: .../702       <Gerhard.Gonter@WU-Wien.ac.at>
Life is like a cobol program. So many damn bugs and no way to find them.
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.software.b
From: gritton@alaska.caedm.byu.edu (Jamie Gritton)
Subject: A real NNTP group (was: What happened to news.software.transport?)
Lines: 12
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 92 08:41:28 MDT
Organization: Brigham Young University, Provo UT USA
	<1992Apr9.133415.16521@uunet.uu.net>
	<1992Apr10.043012.21157@chinacat.unicom.com>
Reply-To: gritton@byu.edu

chip@chinacat.unicom.com (Chip Rosenthal) writes:

>But, there is no such Usenet group known as news.software.nntp.

Ah, another one of those pesky "inet" groups.

As there isn't a real NNTP Usenet group, we should create one.
And while we're at it, may as well give it a better name.

I suggest news.protocols.nntp.
--
James Gritton - gritton@byu.edu - I disclaim
Xref: sparky news.groups:10539 soc.culture.indian.american:1827
From: JLM@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Newsgroups: news.groups,soc.culture.indian.american
Subject: Re: 2nd RFD: SCIA
Date: 17 Apr 92 18:47:20 GMT
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center

>From: alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia)
>Message-ID: <1992Apr17.145849.12876@cbnewsi.cb.att.com>
>Date: 17 Apr 92 14:58:49 GMT
>References: <29EB313E.4CE9@tct.com> <rdippold.703483209@cancun>
>
>In article <rdippold.703483209@cancun>, rdippold@cancun.qualcomm.com (Ron
>Dippold) writes:
>>
>> Ditto.  More than one person is most likely voting against it because
>> if it passed alok would just become completely insufferable.
>> --
>
>It always amazes me how shallow and sadistic people can be at times :)
>
>Alok


 And it amazes me how one person can be so thick-headed and stupid !!

 Three weeks ago I asked you to be quiet because every time you posted
something you were hurting SCIA's chances. You refused and instead
kept _yapping_ and look at all the people you've alianated.

 Go ahead ! Keep it up you fool !

 NOW I'm _disgusted_ (with Alok that is),

Jose L. Martinez
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: 2nd RFD: soc.personals.ads.{male,female}.{seeking-male,seeking-female}
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 22:22:33 GMT

rawdon@cabrales.cs.wisc.edu (Michael Rawdon) writes:
>Yes, but were they supporting the split into several groups, or simply the
>creation of a soc.personals.ads hierarchy (i.e., one not in the alt.

Most were supporting the split into several groups. As USENET grows and
grows, so will the number of postings to these groups. 

>Besides, I still maintain that the VAST majority of volume problems in
>alt.personals are caused by discussion and test postings, which this
>proposal would eliminate WITHOUT a split.  Thus, I believe, making everyone
>(even me :-) happy.

I agree, however (again) I am not creating a replacement for alt.personals.
I am proposing the addition a separate service. 

>*I'm* not the one disagreeing with you here, but the fact that others do I
>think should be considered.

Believe me I have been considering these things. 
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov           ames!elroy!dxh

 Do you think you love your Creator? Love your fellow creature first.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: rlb@access.digex.com (Richard L. Butler)
Subject: Re: rec.arts.manga...etc.....
Organization: The Fourth Drawer on the Left, Second Column
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 06:18:54 GMT

wai@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Benjamin Wai) writes:
>	P/S: Probably I've got a few individuals at this very moment to cover 
>	     their ears (or eyes) and scream, "What nonsense is this?!?"

You're right.  What nonsense is this?

>
>	=> Rec.arts.Manga !!!
>

Oh, THAT nonsense.

	=> rec.arts.comics.manga

-- 
 Richard L. Butler             rlb@access.digex.com             301-220-2020
 Digital Express Group, 6006 Greenbelt Road #228, Greenbelt, Maryland  20770
   **** Express Access: Online Communications in Washington/Baltimore ****
   * login as "new" for info, 301-220-0462 (Wash) or 410-766-1855 (Balt) *
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: conty@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Conty)
Subject: Re: I thought "manga" was a tropical fruit
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 03:17:27 GMT
Keywords: fresh perspective

In article <1992Apr14.015401.20773@cbfsb.cb.att.com>, forbes@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (scott.forbes) writes:
> 
> Using the same logic:  Manga is a fruit, manga is a fruit, manga is a fruit.

No, "mango" is a fruit.  "Manga" is Spanish for "sleeve".  Thus,
rec.arts.manga is a newsgroup for Spanish sleeve art.

I'll go back to my cave now...
-- 
			    E n r i q u e  C o n t y
			      jester@ihlpl.att.com
		   Disclaimer:  You're not dealing with AT&T.
From: jkim@jingoro.Eng.Sun.COM
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: manga
Date: 10 Apr 92 01:25:30 GMT
Reply-To: jkim@jingoro.Eng.Sun.COM ()
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.  Mt. View, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: jingoro

Is it ok with everyone to just vote in the strawpoll, and
see the results and then go from there?

I'm getting tired of all this, and I'm sure you are also.
If we see the results, at least we'll have something to
talk about, and we can have some notion of what people think.

Until then, maybe we should rest our keyboards.


--
Jun Kim                                         jkim@jingoro.Eng.Sun.Com
Sun Microsystems
Mountain View, CA                               "Oboete imasu ka..."
Date: 11 Apr 92 01:31:12 GMT
From: axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au (Iain Sinclair)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga
Reply-To: axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au
Organization: University of Technology, Sydney

smith@ctron.com (Larry Smith) writes:
 >Point 1:
 >-------
 >The existence of errors in newsgroup naming in the current hierarchy is not
 >an excuse to commit even more errors in newsgroup naming.

Fine.  When the CFV for a new top-level arts* hierarchy comes around,
we'll support a move to arts.manga.

 >Point 2:
 >-------
 >Otherwise, it's still comic books

Fallacy, as stated (& proved) repeatedly.  There appears to be some
confusion about this in the charter, and it will be cleared up for the CFV
(as stated repeatedly).

 >We're floating in a vast sea of information, and we are trying
 >to find a few currents that we like.

Yep.

But I'd be really disappointed if the Usenet community was afraid to
learn at least one new, significant foreign word every year.


--
Iain Sinclair   axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au                             ne cede.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: jasonp@cunix4.prime.com (Jason R. Pascucci)
Subject: Re: RGM split (rec.games.mud)
Organization: Prime Computer, Inc./Framingham, Ma
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 00:31:14 GMT

Yes, it contains, but is not limited to, these social
postings. It would be similar to the current
noise on rgm. It also provides a forum for vr
discussion, <in character>, which doesn't exist
today. Reference my first article to news.groups a few days 
ago for the complete description....

-- 
Jason R. Pascucci
jasonp@primerd.prime.com
From: T.D.G.Sandford@bradford.ac.uk (TDG SANDFORD)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD for new IMAGE PROCESSING newsgroup
Date: 15 Apr 92 12:35:29 GMT
Organization: University of Bradford, UK
Originator: 90908106@muser

In article <2311@carto.mdavcr.mda.ca> sw@mdavcr.mda.ca (Scott Wood) writes:
(re proposed content of new group)
>
>IEEE Transactions on Image Processing, EDICS LIST (whatever EDICS means):
>
>1 Image Processing
>  1.1  Coding
>.......
>
>2 Computed Imaging
>  2.1  Acoustic Imaging
>.......
>
>3 Image Scanning, Display and Printing
>  3.1  Scanning and Sampling
>  3.2  Quantization and Halftoning
>  3.3  Colour Reproduction
>  3.4  Image Representation and Rendering
>  3.5  Graphics and Fonts
>  3.6  Architectures and Software for Display and Printing Systems
>  3.7  Image Quality
>  3.8  Visualization
>  3.9  Other
>
The first two categories sound like a good basis to build on for a charter
for a ?.?.image-proc group. The third category belongs in the existing
comp.graphics groups (imho).

--
Thomas Sandford | t.d.g.sandford@bradford.ac.uk
From: ian@airs.com (Ian Lance Taylor)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Some comments on this rec.arts.{whatever}.manga
Date: 10 Apr 92 14:33:41 GMT

jkim@jingoro.Eng.Sun.COM (Jun Kim) writes:

>Now, "comics" to my eyes, and as I've seen it in r.a.comics, has an effective
>definition with strong western sequential connotations.  That's what I
>have to say on the definition of comics.  

Although I should know better than to post on a topic like this, I'd
like to add an alternate data point.  When I (or, for that matter,
anybody I know), talk about something like Akira or Kamui or Lone Wolf
& Cub or any of the other Japanese comics that have been translated
into English, I call it a ``comic.''  When I pick up one of those
thick books you see in all the newsstands in Japan (I can't read them,
but I can look at the pictures) I call it a ``comic anthology.''

When some people use the word ``comic'' they mean the X-Men.  That
doesn't mean that _Maus_ is not a comic, and it doesn't mean that
_RAW_ is not a comic, and it doesn't mean that _Japan, Inc._ is not a
comic, and it doesn't mean that manga are not comics.

Incidentally, speaking as a news and system administrator, what
proponents of rec.arts.manga as opposed to rec.arts.comics.manga have
to demonstrate is that the latter is at least as inappropriate as
rec.arts.anime.manga (or, for that matter, rec.arts.wobegon.manga).
Nobody is denying that manga are ``at the same level'' as comics,
they're just denying that that has any relevance to selecting a
newsgroup name.

The purpose of a newsgroup name is to unambiguously describe the
contents of the newsgroups, and to allow easy distribution control in
news sys files.  Good reasons for choosing rec.arts.manga are ``nobody
will be able to find it under rec.arts.comics'' or ``people will think
the newsgroup is restricted to the discussion of those manga that are
comics'' or ``news sites which receive rec.arts.comics will not want
to receive rec.arts.comics.manga'' (note that demonstrating the
contrapositive is not useful, since it is just as easy to add
rec.arts.comics.manga to a sys file as it is to add rec.arts.manga).
-- 
Ian Taylor                     ian@airs.com                    uunet!airs!ian
First person to identify this quote wins a free e-mail message:
``Do you make a grievance of weighing so many pounds only, instead of three
  hundred?  Then why fret about living so many years only, instead of more?''
Date:  9 Apr 92 01:52:32 GMT
From: axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au (Iain Sinclair)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Why manga is a world apart from comics.
Reply-To: axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au
Organization: University of Technology, Sydney

jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
 >There's been no
 >argument so far that's even *tried* to explain why manga aren't comics; just a
 >lot of assertions that they're different. Maybe I'm uninformed. OK, fine:
 >inform me.

Here's a clumsy, but hopefully helpful, explanation (pulled off alt.manga).

==

[...]  Manga has since evolved into a storytelling medium which usually
feature one of more of the following characteristics:

  - liberal use of sound effects, usually strongly integrated with the art.
  - liberal use of halftone and shading patterns.  Almost always optimised
     for black and white publication.
  - well-developed conventions for representing action, emotion, romance,
     satire, slapstick, "naughty bits", etc.
  - meticulous depiction of inanimate objects like buildings, cars
     and weapons.
  - people and animals tend to be depicted in varying degrees of caricature.
  - typeset speech bubbles (excepting "gag" strips).
  - intended to be read rapidly.
  - oriented towards creating mood, developing characters or telling a story,
     rather than the realist scene-by-scene approach of
     most western comics.

==

Manga differ in format, presentation, subject matter, approach to the
subject matter, history, availability, associated culture, technique,
and even things like authors' esteem.  There is any doubt that
manga and comics are sufficiently different that manga readers would
never read comics, and vice versa.

(For the record, I also read non-mainstream comics like Hard Boiled,
Roachmill, the Mask!, Rip-off and Larson's stuff, etc.)

I guess if someone had created rec.sport.boxing before rec.martial-arts,
people would be clamouring for rec.sport.boxing.martial-arts.

Rec.arts.manga follows existing usenet conventions, assigns it its
correct place in the hierarchy as a recreational art (not just as
a "comic" -- there are associated CDs, books, and significant
influences on other media like animation and advertising), and
satisfies just about everyone except those who think that they're
"just comics" and should thusly be shoved under rec.arts.comics.



--
Iain Sinclair   axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au                             ne cede.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: cudcv@warwick.ac.uk (Rob McMahon)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: I thought "manga" was a tropical fruit
Keywords: fresh perspective
Date: 11 Apr 92 12:44:20 GMT
Organization: Computing Services, Warwick University, UK

In article <axolotl.702975786@syzygy> axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au writes:
>forbes@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (scott.forbes) writes:
> >I don't know what a "manga" is.
>
>What's a "gaffa".

As has been said before ... one bad newsgroup name doesn't excuse another.

> >If a newsgroup named "rec.arts.manga" were created, I wouldn't have the
> >slightest idea what went in it.  I'd probably post questions about kiwi
> >fruit.  Or assume it's some strange dance that I've never heard about.
>
>Maybe you could read the articles in it, or check the newsgroups file.
>Works for me, anyway.

cudcv (50) > wc -l /usr/local/lib/news/active
   1595 /usr/local/lib/news/active
cudcv (51) > 

I'm just going to dabble in 1600 groups to find out what they're all about.
What's the nwesgroups line going to say: "Discussion about comics of the
Japanmese/Asian genre".  Hah!  If it just says "Discussions about manga", I'm
going to be no wiser.

Rob
-- 
UUCP:   ...!mcsun!uknet!warwick!cudcv	PHONE:  +44 203 523037
JANET:  cudcv@uk.ac.warwick             INET:   cudcv@warwick.ac.uk
Rob McMahon, Computing Services, Warwick University, Coventry CV4 7AL, England