HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: karl@ddsw1.mcs.com (Karl Denninger)
Subject: Re: Feminist=Equality? Errrr.... Nope.
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 20:54:20 GMT
Organization: MCSNet, Chicago, IL

In article <1993Jan19.181634.19947@llyene.jpl.nasa.gov> julie@eddie.jpl.nasa.gov (Julie Kangas) writes:
>In article <C131zH.52q@ddsw1.mcs.com> karl@ddsw1.mcs.com (Karl Denninger) writes:
>>
>>And I've done some stupid things while drunk.
>>
>>However, I WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR MY ACTIONS WHILE DRUNK.
>>
>>In fact, society holds me responsible for my actions while drunk, including
>>what I consent to.  Why is it different for women in bed?
>
>Suppose you were passed out drunk and someone stole your wallet.  
>Wouldn't you like to prosecute the person who stole it?  I think
>society, while acknowledgeing that being that drunk is a 
>stupid thing to do, would find the thief guilty of robbery.

If I'm passed out I cannot give consent to sex or giving away my wallet.
Straw man argument deleted.

>Suppose also that someone else freely gave away their wallet
>while drunk and later claimed it was stolen.  Does that invalidate
>your experience?  Does someone else's fradulent claims negate
>your truthful claim?

The person claiming it was stolen lied, and has made a fradulent claim.

>People, male or female, are going to find loopholes in laws
>and take advantage of them.  However, the fact that some women 
>say they were raped when they weren't does not mean that *no* 
>woman is ever raped in similar circumstances.  

Didn't say it does.  However, I do say that if you get willfully drunk, but
are <conscious>, and give consent then you have.  Period.

--
Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, <well-connected>!ddsw1!karl)
Data Line: [+1 312 248-0900]
From: gazit@duke.cs.duke.edu (Hillel Gazit)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: If ljf did not see it then it just does not exist
Date: 25 Jan 93 18:27:59 GMT
Reply-To: gazit@cs.duke.edu (Hillel)
Organization: Living In Harmony

In article <1993Jan18.072911.15112@leland.Stanford.EDU> 
farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf) writes:
#I agree with some of what you've said, that racism deprives our
#culture and society of diversity and equality.  And perhaps, by not
#hiring the best person, it damages our economy.  (I've never been very
#convinced about this, though, since many businesses that discriminate
#on the basis of sex, color, ethnic background, or sexual orientation
#seem to do quite well and aren't in any fear of going bankrupt.)  

Can you show us some well established engineering firms with no asians?
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: jenk@microsoft.com (Jen Kilmer)
Subject: Re: Feminism's Lesbian Leaders (was: Why are there only men on)
Date: 22 Jan 93 00:48:59 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

(Muffy Barkocy) writes:
>(ljf) writes:
>>(Muffy Barkocy) writes:
>>>*grin*...umm...*my* kind of woman would not necessarily *have* a man.
>>>However, I must admit that I enjoy making cat-like noises at my SOs.

*purrr*purrr*purrrrr*

>>While I'm not a cat-fancier, I'll say that you can make cat-like
>>noises at me anytime. *hint*hint*flirt*flirt*
>
>*GRIN*...I also bite.
>I'm afraid, however, that I may have to give in now to Robert's
>assertion about feminism being full of lesbians - I've gotten more women
>flirting with me here than on soc.bi!

*flirt*?  In alt.flaminism?? Women flirting?? hmm...didn't you say you 
do windows programming???  ever consider bringing that talent north a
bit?  :>  ...course these days I'm working on MS-DOS...or Ms Dos, as
it's occasionally known ;> ;>

[watch out --- in college, I once picked up a guy with my C code *grin*]

-jen
From: kaarts@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Kenneth John Aarts)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: If ljf did not see it then it just does not exist
Date: 26 Jan 93 19:35:17 GMT
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada


>In article <1993Jan18.072911.15112@leland.Stanford.EDU> 
>farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf) writes:
>#I agree with some of what you've said, that racism deprives our
>#culture and society of diversity and equality.  And perhaps, by not
>#hiring the best person, it damages our economy.  (I've never been very
>#convinced about this, though, since many businesses that discriminate
>#on the basis of sex, color, ethnic background, or sexual orientation
>#seem to do quite well and aren't in any fear of going bankrupt.)  

I thought someone recently won a Nobel Prize for proving this point.  (That
discrimination does cost.)

Ken
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center
Date: Sunday, 24 Jan 1993 19:47:09 EST
From: <RIPBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: Male Men Bashers
 <93023.062549RIPBC@CUNYVM.BITNET> <C1DE6p.7EC@news.cso.uiuc.edu>

I said:

->  My last point is however that there ARE indeed biological differences
->between men and women (of a statistical but very significant nature) and
->a plan for a good society that ignores these differnces is bound not to
->work and to create at least as many problems as it solves.
-
To which Lenore Levine responds:

-Any plan that ignores individual *human* differences is bound not to
-work.
-
-There's an ancient Greek legend of a bandit, Procrustes, who had
-a bed to which he tied unwary travelers. If they were shorter than the
-bed he stretched them on the rack, thus killing them -- and he took
-their money. If they were taller than the bed, he cut their heads off --
-and took their money. (History does not record what he did if they were
-exactly right.)
-
-Well, if Procrustes had had *two* beds -- one for men, and one for women
--- would what he did have been any better?
-
-Lenore Levine

  This a good point.  If he had had two beds, one for short people and one
for tall people, that would have been better.  But would he then have had
complaints that there was not an equal distribution of sexes on the two
beds - that the `tall' bed had more men and the `short' bed had more women?
It certainly makes sense to divide by tall and short rather than by male
and female, but if one really demands symmetry, then one is no better off
than with one bed!!

Rohit Parikh
From: hpzg0650@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Hale P Zengingonul)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: What do you want?
Date: 21 Jan 93 18:31:28 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

grisha@athena.mit.edu (Grigory Golberg) writes:

>I've read a large number of articles in this newsgroup and
>I was compelled to ask this question to all feminists out there:

>Just what do you want? If you could, please explain it in calm
>and logical manner. I'm just curious.

  I just want equal treatment that's all. Why is this so hard
to accept?
					
pinar
pinar@aero.ece.uiuc.edu


>-- 
>****************************************************
>| Women...can't live with them...pass the beer nuts|
>|                                 (Norm Peterson)  |
>| I love the women's movement...especially when I  |
>|am walking behind it. (Rush Limbaugh)             |
>====================================================
>| Grigory Golberg, PI        grisha@athena.mit.edu |
>****************************************************
Newsgroups: alt.feminism,soc.women
From: jenk@microsoft.com (Jen Kilmer)
Subject: Re: Male Men Bashers
Date: 22 Jan 93 09:55:36 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

In article <1993Jan21.022029.20658@adobe.com> kendall@adobe.com (Janice Kendall) writes:
>The distrust of "feminist" is understood, but not the blanket comdemnation.
>(Lawyers have it worse than feminists and not all of them deserve it either.)
>Isn't Robert Bly a masculinist? :->
>
>I do actually prefer "humanist", but I guess even that term is loaded for
>some people.

Well, for one thing, the _Humanist_Manifesto_ doesn't say much about 
gender/sex roles or gender equality. I must say I haven't read it lately,
but basically it's a response to theists about how they're wrong, how
humans must be seen on their own terms instead as being judged in terms
of a deity.  

-jen
 [in other words, last I checked, the term is taken]
From: libwca@emory.edu (Bill Anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: Feminist=Equality? Errrr.... Nope.
Date: 25 Jan 93 15:20:24 GMT
Organization: Emory University, Atlanta, GA
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3

karl@ddsw1.mcs.com (Karl Denninger) writes:
: In article <1jan8aINNetd@gap.caltech.edu> peri@cco.caltech.edu (Michal Leah Peri) writes:
: >maufd@csv.warwick.ac.uk (Mr J S Graley) writes:
: >
: >>The idea of getting paraliytic in the presence of men
: >>who might want to take advantage is too stupid to be true. Thus I don't 
: >>believe it happens by accident.
: >
: >I guess this guy has never been young and stupid.
: >Or, at least, he's never been young....
: 
: I've been both.
: 
: And I've done some stupid things while drunk.
: 
: However, I WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR MY ACTIONS WHILE DRUNK.
: 
: In fact, society holds me responsible for my actions while drunk, including
: what I consent to.  Why is it different for women in bed?
: 
: --
: Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, <well-connected>!ddsw1!karl)
: Data Line: [+1 312 248-0900}        

Depends on what you mean by "consent".  I don't agree with the idea
that a woman who consents to sex while drunk isn't really
consenting and is thus being raped- but there have been many, many
cases of women being violated while passed out drunk, or merely
because they were too drunk to resist.  That is rape.  And yes,
a women who gets roaring drunk at a frat party where she doesn't
know anybody is being stupid; I fail to see how that justifies 
rape, however.

Bill

Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: bgarfink@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (beth diane garfinkel)
Subject: Re: Feminist=Equality? Errrr.... Nope.
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 01:57:36 GMT

In <1jpdc8INNgrh@lily.csv.warwick.ac.uk> maufd@csv.warwick.ac.uk (Mr J S Graley) writes:

>I am concerned by how lightly women take the subject of false rape accusations,
>when they would obviously gain from there being fewer. So I wanted to see
>if you would clearly and unambiguously say that there is a real need to
>avoid false accusations. You have not done so. You have failed to break
>my stereotypical view of women as people who simply want the license to lock
>up men whenever it suits them.

Well, perhaps some of the women on this net have a view of
people, not just men, and by extension the legal system, as failing to take 
women seriously, not so much a stereotypical view as one based on their own
experience.  I must say, by making a fuss about false accusations, you're not
helping matters any.  

Think: imagine you were going to accuse a man you knew of raping you.  Imagine 
further that there is some disparity between the two of you, social position, 
previous criminal records, or any other blight upon you or credit to him 
that would make a judge and/or jury more likely to believe his version 
of events than yours. Would you take the man to court under those
circumstances for anything less than the truth? The unhappy fact is that
to most of the world, men are seen almost universally as more credible
than women by the world at large.  Damn right we're not so het up about
false accusations; we want to be listened to when we make TRUE
accusations!!!!!!!  Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!

								Beth
-- 
". . . but if the will to walk is there, He is pleased with their
stumbles."    		--C.S. Lewis, _The Screwtape Letters_
Newsgroups: alt.feminism,alt.censorship,news.groups
From: tonyd@lclark.edu (Anthony Davis)
Subject: Re: soc.feminism editorial policy
Organization: Lewis & Clark College, Portland OR
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 19:57:01 GMT

what is needed is somehow to provide free, unlimited access to the network...
we can't rely on businesses to allow us to communicate with one another...


see ya,
tonyd

Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: gpmenos@firestone.Princeton.EDU (Gerard Philippe Menos)
Subject: SUBJECTS NEEDED FOR PSYCH. STUDY
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: gpmenos@firestone.Princeton.EDU (Gerard Philippe Menos)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 23:00:09 GMT

I am posting the following announcement for my sister.  She is looking  
for subjects, primarily in the New York City area (the closer to  
Manhattan, the better) or in the vicinty of Princeton, NJ, to  
participate as subjects in a study on the psychology of the postpartum  
period.

At this point, my sister is in greatest need of subjects for the  
control group --females between 18 to 40 years of age, with no  
children, who are not presently pregnant.  If you can participate or  
if you know people who can participate, please read on.  The telephone  
nunber to call is listed below.

Thanks,
Phil Menos

--------------------------------------------------------------
                      SUBJECTS NEEDED

I AM A Ph.D. CANDIDATE IN CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGY, CONDUCTING A
STUDY OF THE POSTPARTUM PERIOD, A LONG NEGLECTED AREA OF
RESEARCH.

                IF YOU ARE 18-40, FEMALE AND

O    EITHER RECENTLY GAVE BIRTH TO A CHILD (WITHIN THE LAST
     NINE MONTHS)

O    OR DO NOT HAVE CHILDREN AND ARE NOT CURRENTLY PREGNANT,

YOU ARE ELIGIBLE TO PARTICIPATE IN A STUDY THAT WILL TAKE 15
MINUTES OF YOUR TlME WITH ME.  AFTER THIS BRIEF MEETING, YOU
WILL BE GIVEN A PACKET OF PSYCHOLOGICAL INVENTORIES THAT WILL
TAKE 40 MINUTES TO 1 1/2 HOURS TO COMPLETE (DEPENDING ON
WHETHER YOU CHOOSE TO DO THE ABBREVIATED VERSION OR NOT), AT
YOUR LEISURE.  THE PACKET WILL BE SELF-ADDRESSED AND STAMPED.
WHEN YOU ARE DONE, JUST PUT IT INTO THE MAILBOX.

AFTER THE REBULTS HAVE BEEN ANALYZED, IF YOU WISH, I WILL
CALL YOU TO ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS THAT YOU MIGHT HAVE ABOUT
THE 5TUDY AND TO GIVE YOU FEEDBACK REGARDING YDUR TYPICAL
MODES OF FUNCTIONING ALONG VARIOUS DIMENSIONS OF PERSONALITY,
YOUR TYPICAL SHIFTS IN PERSONALITY ORGANIZATION UNDER STRESS,
YOUR PERSONAL STRENGTHS AND WEAKNESSES AND OTHER PATTERNS OF
PSYCHOLOGICAL FUNCTIONING SUGGESTED BY YOUR RESPONSES.

THE STUDY IS BEING CONDUCTED ALONG AMERICAN PSYCHOLOGICAL
ASSOCIATION RESEARCH GUIDELINES.  ALL DATA IS STRICTLY
CONFIDENTIAL.  YOU WILL BE IDENTIFIED WITH A CODE NUMBER.
INFORMATION LINKING YOU WITH THIS CODE NUMBER WILL BE
DESTROYED ONCE WE HAVE HAD OUR TELEPHONE FEEDBACK SESSION.

IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN PARTICIPATING OR GETTING MORE
INFORMATION, PLEASE CALL:

                           Micka
                        (212) 666-2174.

              PLEASE PASS THIS ON TO A FRIEND.

                        THANK YOU.

--------------------------------------------------------------
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------
G. Philippe Menos [gpmenos@firestone.princeton.edu]
Systems Administrator,   Princeton University Libraries
voice:  609-258-5183     fax:  609-258-5571
From: jp776@macbeth.umd.edu (sregdoR .S treboR)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: Feminist=Equality? Errrr.... Nope.
Date: 24 Jan 93 01:06:03 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park

In article <C1Bpxw.8v8@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> bgarfink@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (beth diane garfinkel) writes:
>In <jay.36.727813864@UUSERV.CC.UTAH.EDU> jay@UUSERV.CC.UTAH.EDU (Jay Deuel) writes:
>
>>>Damn right we're not so het up about false accusations; we want to be
>>>listened to when we make TRUE accusations!!!!!!! Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!


	You are listened to.  there is a difference between *listening to*
	and blindly believing whatever a woman claims.  


>>Funny how a WOMAN isn't too concerned about false accusations, which 
>>means an innocent MAN is procecuted!  This seems like the wrong approach to 
>>getting people to listen to true accusations.  (sounds like a witch hunt)


	The fact is, women don't much care about mens feelings.  
	It's nothing new, and it wouldn't even be a problem if they 
	didn't spend so much time whining about how men do the same.


>Look.  I don't want innocent men to be prosecuted for rape. I consider
>that to be a given; perhaps I'm overly idealistic.  However, from my
>personal experience, the laws, their enforcement, and the prevailing
>attitudes of society towards women's testimony are all slanted the other
>way, so as to let men guilty of rape be acquitted and go unpunished.  I


	Sorry, if the jury concluded that they were innocent of the
	charges and ruled so, they were probably not guilty.  Who 
	are you to see otherwise?


>might add that some of those laws are stricter than you might think.  In
>Massachusetts, for example, in order for it to be rape, the plaintiff
>has to have made any gesture of resistance at all; saying "no" once or
>struggling for one second is enough to qualify. Think about that.  How
>many of you out there are guilty of rape in Massachusetts?


	Am I to understand that you consider this to be a 
	"Good Thing"?  

       I just responded to a message from Janice in which she said that women
        do not like guys who always clear things ("are you sure you want to __")

        ..

        Hm.

        <still shaking head at the amazing inconsistencies the female side
         seems to display without being bothered at all>



	IMPORTANT:  ALL EMAIL TO rsrodgere@wam.umd.edu and NOT this 
	account.  Mail to this account will not be read/replied to.

Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: levine@symcom.math.uiuc.edu (Lenore Levine)
Subject: Re: Boycotts (was Re: Why are many low-income women fat?)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 22:09:52 GMT

payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:

>In article <C17qEo.Fn7@news.cso.uiuc.edu> levine@symcom.math.uiuc.edu (Lenore Levine) writes:
>>gazit@duke.cs.duke.edu (Hillel Gazit) writes:
>>
>>>#Please distinguish between government and nonprofit institutions;
>>>#the government is much much stronger, and this power attracts the 
>>>#people who abuse power.
>>
>>>#Anyway, a broken watch *can* show twice per day the right time,
>>>#but usually it is pretty much useless.
>>
>>>In article <C0poz1.IxH@news.cso.uiuc.edu> 
>>>levine@symcom.math.uiuc.edu (Lenore Levine) writes:
>>
>>>>I've seen quite a few government/nonprofit institutions that *do*
>>>>work reasonably well. The best seem to be better than any
>>>>private institutions I've been involved with. 
>>
>>>1) Please distinguish between government and nonprofit institutions.
>>
>>>2) Please give some examples of government institutions who have work
>>>   reasonably well for a long time.
>>
>>The San Jose State University Math/CS Department.
>>The University of Illinois Mathematics Department.

>Technically speaking, these are not institutions. The institution in
>question here sould seem to be SJU. 

I do not think that even *businesses* the size of SJSU can be judged as
a whole. The effectiveness of different departments -- at IBM, at AT&T,
in the United States government, at any large university, varies
greatly. However, I would say SJSU as a whole seemed to do a good
job of accomplishing its intended purpose.

>So the question remains, do you
>see SJU as being 'efficient'?

Yes. Yes. Yes.

But institutions must be rated, not only by how well they
accomplish their intended purpose, but by how ethical that purpose is.

I worked for a company in the Silicon Valley whose effective purpose was
to pay for the five houses of the gentleman who founded it. It
accomplished that purpose very well; but at the cost of many broken
lives. And the company did not even, usually, produce much worthwhile
software. (I doubt if Ayn Rand would have approved of it. :-) )

Once again, I think this thread is essentially finished. I would be
glad to discuss it further, if you want to email me privately.

One concluding remark. In a previous posting, you claimed that women
were less aggressive than men. I am not interested in arguing any
further about brain testosterone, in this context. I would just like
to suggest you read alt.flame (which I subscribed to for an afternoon,
for fun). A good percentage of the posters are female, and they
seem to be as accomplished at their art (unwarranted aggression) as any
male!  

Have fun!
Lenore Levine
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: galt%peruvian.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Greg Alt)
Subject: Re: Feminist=Equality? Errrr.... Nope.
Date: 23 Jan 93 20:53:46 MST
Followup-To: alt.feminism
Organization: University of Utah Computer Science

In article <18111@umd5.umd.edu> jp776@macbeth.umd.edu (sregdoR .S treboR) writes:
>In article <C1Bpxw.8v8@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> bgarfink@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (beth diane garfinkel) writes:
>>Look.  I don't want innocent men to be prosecuted for rape. I consider
>>that to be a given; perhaps I'm overly idealistic.  However, from my
>>personal experience, the laws, their enforcement, and the prevailing
>>attitudes of society towards women's testimony are all slanted the other
>>way, so as to let men guilty of rape be acquitted and go unpunished.  I
>
>
>	Sorry, if the jury concluded that they were innocent of the
>	charges and ruled so, they were probably not guilty.  Who 
>	are you to see otherwise?

Does the phrase "beyond a shadow of a doubt" mean anything to you?  If
the jury has any doubt about the guilt, then they find the accused 
"not guilty".  That does not mean the person didn't do it... all it
means is there is not enough evidence to be certain the person is
guilty.

[stuff about a Massachussetts law saying it is rape if the woman
says no]

>  I just responded to a message from Janice in which she said that women
>   do not like guys who always clear things ("are you sure you want to __")

>        <still shaking head at the amazing inconsistencies the female side
>         seems to display without being bothered at all>

I thought she meant "are you sure you want to go see 'Home Alone'" or
"are you sure that pizza is ok for dinner", etc... making too much of 
a deal about making sure she really wants to do everything, especially
after she has already said it is ok.

I would imagine that nearly all women like to asked if they want to 
have sex before the man inserts his penis. 
----
Join the Greg Alt boycott! Put /galt/h :j in your killfile today!
----
Xref: sparky alt.feminism:7656 soc.women:23084
Newsgroups: alt.feminism,soc.women
Subject: Re: Male Men Bashers
From: <RIPBC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Date: Tuesday, 26 Jan 1993 07:28:22 EST
 <1993Jan23.021251.7678@wam.umd.edu><1993Jan26.035810.19608@microsoft.com>
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center

From: jenk@microsoft.com (Jen Kilmer)
-
-From the time I was 14, I've avoided self-centered jerks.
-I've had three dates try to become abusive (one hit me;
-another strong-armed me to show that he didn't "have" to accept
-my refusal to have sex, another threw his drink at me and screamed
-obscene names). In each case, that's been the end of the relationship.
-Each of these cases, btw, were before I turned 21.
-
-I simply consider that kind of behaviour too dangerous to put up
-with it.
-
-If "the women in your sphere" are idiots, why not look elsewhere?
-
--jen

  It is idiots like your three dates who give all men a bad rap and then it
becomes quite easy to pass laws that discriminate against ALL men.  So we are
ALL being `harrassed' by your `ex-dates' though in quite different ways!

Rohit Parikh
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: jay@UUSERV.CC.UTAH.EDU (Jay Deuel)
Subject: Bestiality (consent?)
Keywords: bestiality
Organization: University of Utah Computer Center
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 18:40:23 GMT

Along the lines of consent, I'm curious what you think of bestiality?  The 
Utah State Legislature is considering a bill that would make it illegal, 
because an animal can not give consent.  A few questions to consider:

	Does the word "rape" apply to non-human sentients?

	What if the animal initiates the action; how many people have had to
	shake a dog off their leg?

	If people can't molest animals, should they kill and/or eat them?

	If an animal can't give consent, can it testify?
Newsgroups: alt.feminism,soc.women