From: ninjam@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Marty)
Subject: Re: Bruce/Ninjam flame
Originator: ninjam@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 08:01:24 GMT

doug@eng.umd.edu (Douglas N. Cohen) says:

>	please explain this.  how about some hard documentation that one
>can confirm.  we are not talking about fandom type 'he was the greatest',
>or black belt magazine filler by someone who never saw or met him in
>action, but someone of a level of competence that is at least recognized
>by a 'reasonable' number of people in the martial arts comunity.  someone
>who actually sparred him in a contest/fight, or saw his training on a
>regular basis.

Dan Inosanto, Hawkins Cheung, Ed Parker, Chuck Norris, Bob Wall, Ted Wong,
Richard Bustilio, Taky Kimura, Jim Kelly, William Cheung, Surachai Sirisute,
Gene Le Bell, Joe Lewis, Professor Wally Jay, anyone at the '64
Long Beach internationals.......................................................................................................

As for the comments by the above people; personal books, tv interviews,
ect...

And if you don't want to go by that, I'm sure if you write any of the
above people (Except of course Ed), they will be happy to confirm it.
And if Dan, Ed, Wally Jay, Joe Lewis and the many others aren't "recognized"
people by your standards, I'd like to know what your standards are.

>>knew Bruce and could back up that all his kicks were powerfull.
>>I'd be interested in where your getting your info.
>>As for "advanced" kicks that's rediculous too.  For it was a known
                                ==========
>>fact that he studied and learned MANY advanced kicks.  He did many

>	as i would be interested in where you get yours (beside the
>obvious plagerisms that have appeared under your post....)

I'd like to see one line in my post about the Bruce Flame that I 
plagerised.  That means that you have to back it up with exact
references to periodicals or books that I supposedly took it out of.
And if your not talking about that post (and you did say post not posts)
then I would like to know also.  Any quotes in my past posts to rec.m-a
that dealt with the subject I have ALWAYS stated that it was a quote from
so and so.

>and, what the **** is 'an advanced kick'?  this is much of a bull****
>term as ever i have seen.  even the most basic kick is 'advanced' and 
>even the most advanced kick is 'basic' ... ah!!! why do i bother!!! that 
>statement is so irritating..... 

Then talk to Dankin Burdick(sp?).  That was the term he was using in the post
I was replying to.
And if your reading this Dankin, this is by no means meant to pass a
flame to you, but I did not start using this term.

>>of them in exhibitions in Hong Kong and other places.  Whether he
>>felt the need to use them was up to him.  But his two most used

>	how do you know?  how could you know.... where do you get this 
>information....how about some HARD proof?  some reputable documentation!!!
>(hint: i don't consider you to fall into that category... )

If your talking about the exhibtions, talk to any of the millions of people
that watched Bruce on TV in Hong Kong on talk shows, charity benefits, ect..
Or write to Golden Harvest studios for that matter.
If your talking about his willingness to use such kicks, read anything
by the man (Tao Of Jeet Kune Do, BL Fighting Method), or any of his students.
The above listing of people is where I get my documention.  Where do
YOU get your HARD PROOF as you put it, that disclaims everything I
have said, and will make me bow my head in shame for ever listening to
the above mentioned people.

>>and powerful kicks were the side and hook/roundhouse.

>	most used when, where, how?  you mean in the movies?  in his street
>gang days?  in his famous tournament (which was where? when?)

This is geting totally rediculous.  Asking for proof of this is like asking
me what he had for breakfast on July 3, 1969, and was it raining, how
many eyelashes he had, and did he pick his knose that morning and
stick his snot under the table.

If you read any of his texts, interviews, ect, he plainly states which
kicks he likes to use and which he felt were more effective.  Of the kicks
he states as having used or likes to use the most in combat past present
or future are the side kick and the hook/roundhouse.  Look in Tao Of Jeet
Kune Do or any of the B.L. Fighting Method books for "Hard Copy" on
the subject.

>>I can also suply photograhs of the many "advanced" kicks.

>	this is a ludicrous statement!  "photograhs of many "advanced" kicks"
>what does this mean?  would you please explain?

That means exactly what Dankin and I were disputing about.  It means that
Dankin asked and I am willing to suply photo's of Bruce doing kicks
other than basic kicks.  If you don't know what is defined as basic
or advanced kicks, then ask Dankin.  It's his terms I'm going by.

>>The reason he didn't do many of them is because he felt they were
>>for show and felt you should stick to the basics in fighting.
>>Again I can back the above up too with interviews and such.

>okay.... please state references.... exact publications, or video/
>film interviews, dates and circumstances....  tap, tap, tap   .... there's
>your challenge..... 

Tao Of Jeet Kune Do, Bruce Lee's Fighting Method Books 1-4, Dan Inosanto's
tapes (don't remember which one), any interviews on paper or on TV that
you can get ahold of by ANY of the above people.  Interviews by
various people are also available from Golden Harvest studio, and I've
seen one such tape by them at Blockbuster Video.
Sticking to the basics is one of the main ideas in Jeet Kune Do and again
is CONSTANTLY mentioned in the above periodicals or any other periodicals
or publications on Jeet Kune Do.



>
>>>The chinese stylist they got
>>>to stand in for him on the Game of Death fight scenes that had 
>>>not been filmed is a much better kicker (although he does not
>>>have Bruce's charisma; but then, who does?).  
>>
>>I believe that was Bruce Li.  As for who was a better kicker, I think
>>that's kind of hard to tell from a movie, and since you've never met
>>either of them in person or see either of them fight.........

>	as you can not go by the same criteria since you have never met
>bruce lee in person, or even seen him in person.  so, how can you speak
>for his skill in a fight....

Again, in your personal vendetta to discredit me you forgot to read the 
original posting that you're commenting about.  I distinctly said that
"I" or "Anyone else" that did not know him can only go by doccumentation
of people that actually knew him.

>it might be different if he had any docummented
>'wins' in a tournament, or recognition by 'qualified' sifus of reputation....
       ===============                     =========  =====    

Asking about tournament's is like asking if the pope ever killed and raped.
You know darn well he didn't believe in or have any desire to go into
"competitions".  The closest thing he went was sparing with his students.
And as for winning "challenges" just ask any of the Triad "extras"
in the filming of Enter The Dragon that used to challenge him becuase they
thought he was nothing.  This is detailed in Robert Clouse's book on the
movie as well as other people on the set.  And that is just one example.
Others are doccumented by Hawkins Cheung.  And if you don't believe
that, then write him.  I'd be more than happy to mail you his address.

>to the best of my knowledge, he never won any regional, national, or
>international title in anything (except the movies) and he was never made a
>master by a teacher of any style he studied.... nor did he ever attain a level
>deserving such title.

Again, see above.  You have no idea how rediculous you sound.  If one of
the main ideas of JKD is to transcend all styles to be a style of no styles,
why the heck would he want certification in a style?

>if i'm wrong, and you can show me documented proof.... i will publicly
>acknowledge it, and recant this statement.  tap tap tap....  and since you are
>so big on the traditions and the traditional of the chinese martial arts, do
>you understand the significance of the 7star flag?  (these are given, and hard 
>to earn, yet even harder to keep....)  would bruce lee happen to have had one?
>would he be able to live up to one?  do you know of anyone who has one?

Again, see above....

>>The only thing you can do is go by written accounts of people who knew
>>him.  I or anyone else that never personally knew Bruce will never be
>>able to say "He really wasn't good at this" or "He was great at this",
>>without basing it on other peoples experiences with him.  We have no personal
>>knowlege.  That's why I think it's kind of rediculous with all of this
                                            ==========
>>Bruce Lee bashing and praising (of the individual, not his style) going
>>on when there's not even a slim chance anyone here actually knew him.
>>You want to base it on accounts by other people then fine.  But state that
>>at least.  If I make a statement about him it's because I have documented
>>evidence of what I'm backing up.  If I'm talking about Jeet Kune Do, that's

>	okay.... i'm challenging you on specific points.... (tap tap tap) let's
>hear/see your documented evidence to back up any refutation of the statements
>i've made.....

Look above part of post.

>>a totally different story all together and is something that just happens
>>to deal with him as a side line and not neccisarily his personal skills.
>>
>>But to start bashing a man that isn't even here to defend himself or his
>>views, is no different than all of the American Kenpo people that have
>>been coming out of the woodwork now since Ed Parker died, claiming he
>>was wrong with this and that and that their approach is better.  20 years
>>down the line it will get even worse, and I'm sure much about Ed will either
>>be elevated to myth or tossed in the garbage as has been done with
>>other people long gone.  Only those who knew Ed, or Bruce, or Morihei
>>Ueshiba, or any other departed great martial artists can truly say
>>they were this or that.  And unless we were lucky enough to have actually
>>known these people, all we can do is go by what other these other people
>>tell us.

>	sheer sophistry and subterfuge.  how does ed parker and morihei
>ueshiba come into this perelation.... they are well documented and known
>individuals of rank, and have contributed to the martial arts community.

Again you proved the above passage with your own statement.  The documentation
on Morihei and Ed is supplied by people who knew them or by the individual
themselves.  Which was the entire basis of the above passage.  Such 
doccumentation is also provided on Bruce if you just weed thru all the
fanfare crap (of which there is alot of).  Some even by these known
people of rank and respect (such as Ed Parker).

>so has bruce lee, but in a totally different manner.
>i am not belittling
>bruce lee in any way for his contributions to the martial arts. 

Obviously not.  In fact it's quite obvious who you are trying to belittle
in this post and many of your past posts.

>but he was not a master, nor a god, nor should he be diefied for his movies
>personae.....

And no one is saying he was a master of anything but himself, and no one
is elevating him to god status except the many trash magazines out there.

>and while we're on the subject of qualifications, would you mind
>publically stating your personal martial arts qualifications?  for example,
>i would be interested to see what style(s) you studied, for how long, and
>under which instructors(s), and what levels (recognized and documented, and
>by/from who) you attained.

Sure.  I have allready said to many my qualifications in mail, as you 
allready know what they are.  They should also be appearing in the annual
list.
Kempo Karate for 3 to 4 years.  Green Belt. Midwest Karate (no longer
in existence).
Northern Shaolin Kung Fu (Sifu Tsai of Chicago, and other private
instructors), no ranking. 5+ years of study.
Ninpo (private study) 5+ years.  No ranking.
Wing Chun (private study). 3+ years.  No ranking.
Am now on what is called the "Path To Jeet Kune Do".

I have also had the opportunity to work with many fine students and instructors
in Mhuay Thai, TKD, Aikido, Shotokan, Boxing, and various other arts.
Where the above says no ranking it either means that the instructor did
not believe in belts (Any yes Doug, there are many that do not, except for
health purposes), or that I asked ahead of time not to use a belt ranking.
I have no need to post any of the other private instructors names, as
I have nothing to prove Doug.  I have studied the above styles, I have been
training in martial arts constantly, every day 7 days a week for 10 years,
and I can do or have experienced everything I have say I have.  You don't
want to believe me fine, I have no desire to prove anything to you or anyone
else.

>and in the weight lifting and history areas, similar questions as to
>where you get your information....  

Human Kinetics department University of Wisconsin- Milwaukee.
Encyclopedia of Body Building by Arnold Schwarzenegger.
Michael Yessis PHD.

East Asian History to Present (Course here at UWM).
Books by Ed Parker and Dr. Yang Wing Ming.

>	finally, i wonder if you would consider this to be harrassment?  it is
>not meant to be such.  it is meant to understand what qualifications you have 
>to dispence information without documentation on so many subjects with such
>assurance.

This posting, not much.  Your past postings yes.  Your private email to
me on the net etiquette(sp?), incense burning, and your private mail from the
last couple of days, yes.

>and to whom you supposedly sent them to have my account
>'yanked'.  i would like some documentation, please....

For those of you that don't know that are reading this, I have been
getting sick of Doug's personal harrasment both publicly and private.
I sent a letter back to one of Doug's replies stating that if he continues
this personal harrasment I will take action.  This has gone far beyond
a normal dissagreement.  I have sent copies of your postings and private
E-mail to me to the NIC (people in charge of registration and policing
on the Internet), and to the local administration here.
There's your doccumentaion Doug.

>	*T*A*P* - *T*A*P* - *T*A*P*      *  *   *
>	                                   * **
>(clear enough?)

All too clear.  The only reason I said about the challenge and taps was to
show how childish you have been acting.  You only seem to reinforce this
point.


>	another opinion, worth what you paid for it .....
>        and, as always, i am/at:

Considering that no one has been paying for your opinions don't you think
you should take the hint allready.

I have no desire to carry this thing out further Doug or to waist the
other rec.martial-arts people's time with this subject matter.  I've stated
what I do and don't know, I've been honest about my background, and I have
no desire to be the "defender of Bruce Lee".  I've also stated that what
I state are my personal opinions and not a universal fact.  They are things
I have checked on myself that I personally believe in.  Not all the bickering
or attempt to discredit in the world is going to make you, I, or anyone
else on the net change their opinion of what they have personally seen,
or believed in.  Martial Arts is of a physical nature Doug and alot more
than a bunch of posts on the network or direct facts and figures.
As I said before, If anyone doubts my skills or credentials or anything
else of that matter, and you find yourself in my area or me in your area,
I would be more than happy to have a FRIENDLY workout with anyone.
Until that time as such, give it a rest allready.

<bows>

<reaches to shake Doug's hand.......>

Marty