HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jcopelan@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (James c Copeland)
Subject: Re: Gender Benders!
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 02:50:20 GMT

All of this gender bender stuff has me asking the following question:
Don't you hate it when people use the words "gender" and "sex" interchangably?
One example is when filling out forms which ask for your gender instead of
your sex.
If I am not mistaken, sex refers to the biological distinction between men
and women, while gender refers to the sociological distinction between male
and female.  There are few cases where the sex of an individual is in question,
but gender is more of an arbitrary distinction along a continuum. Thus you
can have masculine women and feminine men.

I don't know, I was just axing a question:-)

jc

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Jim Copeland                                            COPELAND.5@OSU.EDU |
|									     |
|    I am not ahead of my time, you are just living in the past.             |
From: sp@mirabeau.osf.fr (Simon Patience)
Subject: Re: The Great Debate : Clarifications (LONG)
Reply-To: sp@mirabeau.osf.fr (Simon Patience)
Organization: OSF Research Institute
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 05:41:10 GMT

In article <86561@netnews.upenn.edu>, crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu (Lauren
L. Crawford) writes:
> In article <1992Aug19.055328.5419@osf.org> sp@mirabeau.osf.fr (Simon
Patience) writes:
> >
> >This is where your lose spelling is letting you down. Being British, I
> >would, of course, spell the distance 'kilometre' and the instrument
> >'kilometer'. 
> >
> You lose out on "loose", though.

That's what happens when you rely on keybounce to do your spelling for you :-)

Simon

  Simon Patience
  Open Software Foundation			Phone: +33-76-63-48-72
  Research Institute				FAX:   +33-76-51-05-32
  2 Avenue De Vignate				Email: sp@gr.osf.org
  38610 Gieres, France				       uunet!gr.osf.org!sp
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: elil@sco.COM (Eli Liang)
Subject: Re: Out of place
Organization: The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc.
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 21:07:57 GMT


In article <1992Aug13.020312.1535@rose.com> peter.churchill@rose.com (peter churchill) writes:
>
>Date Entered: 08-12-92 21:57
>
>sp@mirabeau.osf.fr (Simon Patience) asks:
>
>| Anyone know if there is a word that means something that is in the 
>wrong
>| place or is out of place, like anachronism is for time. Like a fireplace
>| in a house in a climate in which you would clearly never light a fire.
>
>Incongruous?
>Inconsistent?
>Incompatible?
>Discordant?
>Inconsistent?
>
>Probably lots more.

Actually,
	time : place  ::  anachronism : anachorism

I think Simon is looking for the word, "anachorism."  A fireplace in the
tropics is an example of an anachorism just as a dinosaurs with prehistoric
man is an example of an anachronism.

-eli

+---------------------------------------+------------------------------------+
| Eli Liang                             |"Some people feel the rain;         |
| Manager, Operating Systems Development| others just get wet." -Roger Miller|
|                                       +------------------------------------+
| US MAIL: OS Technology Department             EMAIL: ...!uunet!sco!elil    |
|          The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc.              elil@sco.COM          |
|          400 Encinal Street, PO Box 1900      FAX:   408-458-0811          |
|          Santa Cruz, CA  95061                TEL:   408-427-7561          |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: evan@hpl.hp.com (Evan Kirshenbaum)
Subject: Re: Usage: 'goes' for 'said'
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 00:37:12 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard

In article <baron.25.714427230@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> baron@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Dennis Baron) writes:
>The latest variation on _say_ is simply a form of _to Be_:
>
>He goes, "Did you ever hear of anything like that before?" And I'm,
>like, 'Never!"

First of all, it's not that new.  Second, I don't think that it's "be"
per se.  It seems that either "like" or "all" is necessary to convey
the meaning: 
	I'm, like: 'Never!'
	I'm all: 'Never!'
	*I'm: 'Never!'

Third, there is a difference (at least in the dialects I'm familiar
with) between "he said"/"he goes" and "he's all"/"he's like".  The
latter doesn't report on actual words spoken but rather describes the
*attitude* (or perhaps the perception of the attitude).

To quote an article I posted in this very group in October (who ever
said newsgroups weren't circular!):

] If I were a salesman describing a scene in which a customer was rude
] to me, I could say
]
]   "He kept bitching and bitching, and I'm, like, `Fuck off and die'."
]
] If I had used "...and I said/went...", I would be describing a scene
] which would have led to my dismissal.  As it is, I'm describing what
] I *would like to have been able to say* to him.

Evan Kirshenbaum
    HP Laboratories
    3500 Deer Creek Road, Building 26U
    Palo Alto, CA  94304

    kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com
    (415)857-7572
From: gpkatch@alcor.concordia.ca (Gary Katch)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Quotation style question.
Date: 20 Aug 92 19:48:07 GMT
Organization: Concordia University
  Computing Services C-1012
  1455 De Maisonneuve West
  Montreal (Quebec) H3G 1M8
X-Tel: (514) 848-7632
  fax  (514) 848-7622
Originator: gpkatch@alcor

Sorry, this question is not in my puny usage book.  Is there
a preferred format for quotation attributions for quotes by
characters in literary works?

e.g.  
"To be, or not to be..."
	is it
		-- Hamlet, "Hamlet", Shakespeare
	or
		-- Shakespeare, "Hamlet"
	or
		-- Hamlet
	or
		-- Shakespeare

Obviously, for very well-known works, the full attribution of
character, work, and author is not necessary.  Is the character
name ever used?

Also, do you have any recommended books on style and usage?

-- gk
Xref: sparky alt.usage.english:6682 sci.lang:6580
From: tysoj@solb1.essex.ac.uk (Tyson J R)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,sci.lang
Subject: Re: Can I axe you a (sikth) question?
Date: 20 Aug 92 10:53:05 GMT
Reply-To: tysoj@essex.ac.uk (Tyson J R)
Organization: University of Essex, Colchester, UK

In article <frank2.21@underdog.ee.wits.ac.za> frank2@underdog.ee.wits.ac.za (FRANK D N) writes:
>Do people in country's other than South Africa have great difficulty 
>pronouncing the words *fiFth* and *siXth* correctly? These words are 
>commonly pronounced *fith* and *sikth* here.	
>
>I'd guess this has something to do with them phonotactics thingies.
>


Eh, if Pat Ashby is listening in she will know much better than I, but
I seem to remember being taught that the cluster in sixth (siksth) is
one of the longest in English but that it is *standard* to reduce it to
sikth.  Anecdotally, from my own speech habits, I know that I make the
reduction more often when I am adapting towards my high variety (kind of
cod RP and PS lexis) and less so when talking to the servants ;).  I have
only noticed fith in south (sarf) london english, where white speakers
also produce fif, would you believe.

Unfortunately I wouldn't know a phonotagm if it parataxed on my shoe.

Jim Tyson
From: windsor@hera.Berkeley.EDU (Katherine Windsor)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Usage: 'goes' for 'said'
Date: 20 Aug 1992 18:02:15 GMT
Organization: University of California at Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: hera.berkeley.edu

In article <6163@lhdsy1.lahabra.chevron.com> hillyer@rrc.chevron.com writes:
>store and I go, "How much is that doggie in the window?", and he goes, "$199.95 plus tax".  I seem to hear it all the time recently., even from educated people   Is it a Wast Coast usage (I presume it's at least US, not found in the UK yet)?
>
>Just curious.
>
>Martin

Better still is the use of "like," as in:  "Well, I was like 'no way,'
but it didn't matter.  He was like 'you've just gotta.'"  The use
of "to go" as a substitute for "to say" has been around in the mid-west
since at least the early '70s.  The use of "like" I have only noticed 
in the last seven to ten years.  Both seem to creep into the vocabulary
in a manner not unlike a virus:  one says "like" just one time, then
instantly claps one's hand over his or her mouth, shocked.  Soon,
however, it pops out more and more frequently, until only a very 
concentrated effort will erradicate it.  Like a virus, it can strike 
anyone.  Golly.  I'm frightened.


Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: cochran@spam.rtp.dg.com (A. Jing Hippy)
Subject: Re: Use of y'all
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 01:26:16 GMT
Organization: A Suffusion of Yellow
Keywords: y'all

jhill@gallstone.bucknell.edu (HILL, S JACKSON) writes: 
| I support codification of "y'all" as the offician second person plural in
| English.   Let's do it!  It would bring to full circle the old thou-ye
| dichotomy that was so useful awhile back.    Time was when we used to 
| justify the formal use of y'all by the following conjugation:
| 
| I walk
| you walk
| he/she/it walks
| w'all walk
| y'all walk
| th'all walk
| 
| Makes sense to me.

Not to me. The whole PURPOSE of the construct "y'all" is to pluralize the
word "you" (even though that's not strictly necessary).  "We" and "they"
are already plurals.

The problem is that "you" can be both plural or singular, and sometimes
we in the south (and, I suppose, in other areas of the country) feel the 
need to make a distinction between you as an individual and you as a group.  
Other constructs such as "youse" came about for the very same reason.

In the north Georgia mountains and on up into Appalachia, this was
accomplished via a contraction of "you ones", which my grandmother 
pronounced as "yuns".  Although she was a native Georgian, she never
said "y'all".

+--------------------------------------------------+
|Dave Cochran, Data General Corporation, RTP, NC   |
|cochran@dg-rtp.dg.com                             |
+--------------------------------------------------+
|Despite decades of market research, markets       |
|proliferate and there's no cure in sight.         |
+--------------------------------------------------+

Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: dian@arpeggio.gg.caltech.edu (Dian  De Sha)
Subject: Re: "Route"
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Distribution: all
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 23:44:23 GMT

In <BsxDD3.8np@wpi.WPI.EDU> padutton@wpi.WPI.EDU (Peter Alan Dutton) writes:

>The time difference could explain it. There are some words that are
>pronounced differently among generations, although none comes to mind
>right about now (any examples ou there?)

Well, Dad (1906, Denver) says 'dra{u.}th, and I (1945, Pasadena) say 'dra{u.}ght,
both of which are legitimate, of course; but Dad was always the only one I ever
knew to pronounce the "th."

Similarly, I suppose, was his birthdate:  "nineteen-ought-six."

Dian
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: dant@techbook.com (Dan Tilque)
Subject: Re: The pundettes are coming...
Organization: Pseudopolis Yard
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 09:17:01 GMT

dks@athena.mit.edu (dks) writes:
>dant@techbook.com (Dan Tilque) writes:
>>asimov@wk223.nas.nasa.gov (Daniel A. Asimov) writes:
>>>	Why do we refer to people all the time by their sex?  As in
>>
>>Because, despite the wishes of the PC-mongers, a person's sex is one of
>>the most important pieces of information [...] that we have about
>>other people.
>
>The difference between Dan (Tilque) and me on this question is exactly the
>difference between "important" and "obvious."  I fail to see how anything
>assumes importance just because it is obvious.  Obviously, I'm missing
>something important.

Recognizing the difference between male and female is one of the
earliest things we learn.  There was some results reported recently
that babies can tell the difference as early as about 2 weeks.  This
suggests that it may be hard-wired, but I'd say we need more research
first and this is not the newsgroup to discuss the topic.

At any rate, it's not always obvious and when it isn't, we spend a lot
of mental effort looking for additional clues as to which sex the
person is.  This seems to apply everyone we meet or even see a picutre
of or hear a recording of, even if there's no call to refer to the
person with a gender-specific term.

These two items tell me that, for reasons that seem to go beyond
cultural and certainly beyond linguistic, we consider the sex of a
person to be a very important fact.  Well, perhaps "important" is not
quite right.  Maybe "significant" would be better.

---
Dan Tilque    --     dant@techbook.com
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: pel@resntl.bhp.com.au (Paul Osborn)
Subject: Re: Pidgin English (was Re: The Great Debate : Clarifications
Organization: BHP Research - Newcastle Labs
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 02:10:37 GMT

In article <1992Aug6.091131.6924@techbook.com> dant@techbook.com (Dan Tilque) writes:
>From: dant@techbook.com (Dan Tilque)
>Subject: Pidgin English (was Re: The Great Debate : Clarifications
>Date: 6 Aug 92 09:11:31 GMT

>pel@resntl.bhp.com.au (Paul Osborn) writes:
>}mmmirash@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar Mukund Mirashi) writes:
>}
>}>   ... One person posted an article about English word
>}>   spellings in Vanuatu, but he forgot to mention the original spellings
>}>   of the words. 
>}
>}       'wan smolbag' = one small bag
>}       'broadkas has' = broadcast house
>}       language 'blong yumi' = our language

>I'm not sure that Pidgin English can properly be called English.  I'd
>say it's a separate language with its own grammar, vocabulary, etc.  I
>believe that at least one country (Solomon Islands, I think) has
>declared Pidgin to be an official language.

>---
>Dan Tilque    --     dant@techbook.com

	I didn't claim that any of the Pidgin Englishes could actually be 
called English. The examples given above are sufficiently Englishlike (is 
that a word ?) to be reasonably supposed to have been derived from English. 
The point here is that the spelling has been altered. If it were not for the 
advent of modern communications technology, American English could well 
diverge further from English English, just as Pidgin has done. Pidgin has 
diverged more quickly because of greater influences from other languages and 
cultures. I suspect that, with an increase in the numbers of Micronesian 
and Polynesian people watching American produced television programmes, 
that Pidgin will start to converge to American English, albeit slowly. And, 
anyway, how much difference does there have to be between two dialects 
before they become different languages ? Is there some measure of this ? 
What's in a name ? Variety is the spice of life, which is why we all read 
this newsgroup.

-------- PAUL R OSBORN, Research Scientist, Sensing Technology --- /\/\ --
                BHP Research - Newcastle Laboratories, Australia  / / /\
Snail   :       P.O. Box 188, Wallsend, NSW 2287                 / / /  \
Tel     :       +61 49 51-0605  Fax : +61 49 50-2126            / / / /\ \
Telex   :       AA 28768                                        \ \/ / / /
Internet:       pel@resntl.bhp.com.au                            \  / / /
----------------------------------------------------------------- \/\/\/ -
From: futor@llnl.gov (randy j futor)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Can I axe you a question?
Date: 18 Aug 92 22:28:35 GMT
Followup-To: alt.usage.english,sci.lang
Organization: CSo @ LLNL


 miner@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu wrote:
> >  gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Gabe M Wiener) writes:
> >> . . . "axe" in place of "ask" . . .
> 
> The form pronounced "axe" for "ask" is the original form.  Cf. Old
> English _acsian_, i.e. /aksjan/ 'to ask.'

I'm not entirely convinced.  Fortunately for my position, neither is
Pokorny in my brand new Copyright 1992 AHD3.

( I've had to use underlining instead of asterisks to bound italics (
needed the asterisks for the unattested forms ), upper case for bold, &
doubled the vowels to replace the macron - rjf )
At 'ask':
     [ Middle English _asken_, from Old English _aascian_.  See AIS- in
Appendix ]

At AIS- in the Appendix of Indo-European Roots:
    To wish, desire.  Suffixed form *_ais-sk-_.  Ask, from Old English
_aascian_, _aacsian_, to ask, seek, from Germanic *_aiskoon_.  [ Pokorny 1.
_ais-_ 16. ]

( I certainly will be glad on the day that we all can send bold, italic,
diacritically marked text around the network & be confident that others
will be able to read it!! 8-)

__
\/  -+-  randy  -+-  all generalizations are flawed  -+-  futor@llnl.gov
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: greg.grainger@rose.com (greg grainger)
Subject: Re: Out of Place
Organization: Rose Media Inc, Toronto, Ontario.
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 08:02:04 GMT
X-Gated-By: Usenet <==> RoseMail Gateway (v1.70)


Date Entered: 08-13-92 02:57
On Aug 12, Simon Patience wrote:

S(>Anyone know if there is a word that means something that is in the wrong
S(>place or is out of place, like anachronism is for time. Like a fireplace
S(>in a house in a climate in which you would clearly never light a fire.

'incongrous?'

It's not exactly what you're looking for, but hope it helps anyway . . .

                                                                Greg


Written by Greg Grainger at Toronto Ontario,
on Wed 08-12-1992 at 11:27:38 pm.
Usenet Address: greg.grainger@rose.com

---
   OLX 2.2   Heisenberg might have been here.
   RoseMail 2.00 : RoseNet<=>Usenet Gateway : Rose Media 416-733-2285
From: pjh@eng.cam.ac.uk (Philippa Hogben)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Puns
Date: 17 Aug 92 10:53:36 GMT
Organization: cam.eng


>In article <1992Aug15.040735.26043@dg-rtp.dg.com>, cochran@spam.rtp.dg.com (A. Jing Hippy) writes:
>> pjh@eng.cam.ac.uk (Philippa Hogben) writes: 
>> | TSOS@uni-duesseldorf.de (Detlef Lannert) writes:
>> | >In article <pjh.713703937@nessi> pjh@eng.cam.ac.uk (Philippa Hogben) writes:
>> | 
>> | >>BTW I am well known around here for being a punster - I suppose the
>> | >                                             ^^^^^^^
>> | >Could anybody help me with the correct female form of "punster" -
>> | >is it "punstress" (or "pun-stress"), or perhaps "pundette"?
>> | 
>> | [Entirely too serious rebuttal to the above question deleted.]
>> | 
>> | I apologise if this seems like a personal flame - it is not intended
>> | as such. It is just my response to the whole thread I have been
>> | reading over the past week and which I have so far not replied to.
>> | Your question just pushed the button which motivated me to respond. I
>> | apologise also for going off into a tirade about it.
>> 
>> Gosh, Phillipa (may I call you Phillipa?), *I* sort of took the question
>> as a joke that was a reflection of the inanity of the whole discussion that 
>> *has* been going on for the past week.  I mean, the guy even used the
>> term "pundette" (which started the whole mess) to show how ludicrous it all 
>> is.  I just don't see how any question about the proper feminine form of a 
>> word like "punster" could be serious.
>> 

Oh dear, crawl, crawl. I appear to have put my foot in it somewhat. I
must confess that I have missed most of the beginning and the middle
of the thread so I offer a most abject apology if I overreacted. May I
be allowed back into the "brotherhood" of a.e.u. again.... please?

BTW, A. Jing Hippy(*) you are welcome to call me Philippa, but please,
please, please _don't_ call me Phillipa. Yup, yet another thing I am
overly fussy about.

[Written with toungue most firmly in cheek]


* 1) I hope I hope got the number of follow-ups correct here and am
     addressing the correct person.

  2) Sorry if this appears overly formal but I am unsure from this
     what you would normally like to be called.


Philippa

--
Philippa Hogben   pjh@eng.cam.ac.uk  (Reverse if mailing from Janet)
Any mistakes are mine, all mnie.

I am not a .sig virus. I am a free bug.
From: slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com (Mark Slagle)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Guesstimates
Date: 15 Aug 92 10:15:58 GMT
Reply-To: slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com
Organization: You wouldn't ask this if you'd seen my desk.
In-reply-to: dks@MIT.EDU's message of 14 Aug 92 13:26:25 GMT

In article <9208141227.AA07521@MIT.EDU>, dks@MIT.EDU (dks) writes:

> Does the word "guesstimate" exist purely to titillate?  One hefty
> dictionary of my acquaintance defines it as:

> An estimate based on a guess or a conjecture.

> It's another word we've all seen -- and perhaps even used.  But why?
> Has anyone plumbed the word's idiosyncrasies?  How does one construe
> it?  Outside [of] dictionaries, do people use "guess" and "conjecture"
> as if they were on opposite ends of some sort of spectrum (e.g., on a
> spectrum from "heuristic" to "logical")?  If so, is "estimate" to be
> found somewhere on the same spectrum?  What, as they say, gives?

As I understand it, a guesstimate is an informal way of saying
that there is little or no basis in fact or reason for believing
in the accuracy of the information, but that the experience and
feeling is that it is correct.  An estimate, on the other hand,
is generally supposed to have been based on some systematic or
rational method of approximation.  A mechanic will estimate the
cost to fix your car based on the various steps that can be
reasonably foreseen and the parts and labor that would go into
the job.  If the mechanic were to arrive at a figure that was
merely a guesstimate, we would soon find a different mechanic.
Or a lawn care person might guesstimate the amount of fertilizer
to load in the hopper by eyeballing the size of a lawn, or he
might estimate it by figuring the rough dimensions and doing
a quick calculation using the recommended weight per area.

> I'm *particularly* interested in responses from people, if any, who
> use the g-word in their work and play, and who are satisfied, upon
> reflection, that they use it consciously and with reason or pleasure.

I don't do any real work and I can't play a tune.  And I don't
usually use guesstimate consciously and with reason or pleasure.  
Or at least I'm not satisfied that I do if I do.  Do be do.
Well, that was a little playful after all.
--
----
Mark E. Slagle                                 PO Box 61059
slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com                       Sunnyvale, CA   94088
408-756-0895                                   USA
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: hillyer@rrc.chevron.com (Martin J. Hillyer,50-1267,(510)242-3123)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Usage: 'go' for 'said' - second try
Date: 18 Aug 92 20:41:51 GMT
Reply-To: hillyer@rrc.chevron.com
Organization: Chevron, Richmond, California


The first try was garbled, so here is a second try.

Where did the usage `go' for 'said' come from?  Example I went into the store and I go, "How much is that doggie in the window?", and he goes, "$199.95 plus tax."  I seem to hear it all the time lately, even from educated people.  Is it a West Coast usage (I presume it hasn't shown up in the UK, yet).

Just curious.

Martin
From: scjones@thor.sdrc.com (Larry Jones)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Asses
Date: 17 Aug 92 17:45:18 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.133244.25505@dg-rtp.dg.com>, cochran@spam.rtp.dg.com (A. Jing Hippy) writes:
> Oh, and off the subject, thank you *so* much for spelling "piqued" properly.
> I get so weary of reading about people who have had their curiosity "peeked"
> or "peaked".

Don't let it get you down, it's a mute point, anyway.
----
Larry Jones, SDRC, 2000 Eastman Dr., Milford, OH  45150-2789  513-576-2070
Domain: lawrence.jones@sdrc.com               IBMMAIL: USSDR7DR at IBMMAIL
Oh, now YOU'RE going to start in on me TOO, huh? -- Calvin