HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ag055@yfn.ysu.edu (Ward Chanley)
Subject: Re: Wow! stockings!
Organization: Youngstown State University/Youngstown Free-Net
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 04:09:10 GMT


Re: Couldn't we just think of you as 
a well dressed lady?

As we consider you, also, Roberta! :)
-- 
I thank the Goddess for my life,
I thank the Goddess for my loves,
I thank the Goddess for continued blessings.
     -- Z Budapest
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: ag055@yfn.ysu.edu (Ward Chanley)
Subject: Re: a question
Organization: Youngstown State University/Youngstown Free-Net
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 02:51:03 GMT


in public dressed but doesn't try to pass, a drag queen, or 
would that label only apply if I were gay?  I've always thought
the phrase implied homosexuallity, but I've never been completely
certain.
----

The term "Drag Queen" usually has a 
specific Gay connotation (but even
Gay Drag Queens rarely call each 
other Drag Queens when crossdressed:
we call each other women).  But, the 
more generic term "Queen" used in 
reference to just about anything that 
one might use to describe a person, 
and when I use it it's not orientation
specific: I have friends of both
orientations who are huge football 
fans; we call them football Queens.

Kerri (a str. FagHag) and I are both
earring/makeup/jewelry/cosmetics 
Queens.

-- 
I thank the Goddess for my life,
I thank the Goddess for my loves,
I thank the Goddess for continued blessings.
     -- Z Budapest
From: rks@cscns.com (gisle j benediktsson)
Subject: Re: Me? Clueless? Naaah :)
Organization: Community_News_Service
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 04:16:35 GMT

You asked one question which is of great interest to me. 

What makes me a female? Aside from the biologically obvious things, I 
can't quite define that myself. In large part, I gender identity is 
cultural. Are we really different, men and women, without acculturation?

I have never had any interest in wearing make-up, dresses or any of the
other things usually attributed to females? I never cared about dolls,
home-making, getting ga-ga over boys in school, wearing lingerie for 
boyfriends, wearing heels, nurturing babies (I don't think they are
'cute'. I think they are bundles of unbridled need -- and it makes 
me want to run as fast as my stubby-little legs will carry me!) or 
many of the things that most people think of when they think "female",
"woman" or "girl". 

I always resented the fact that I was expected to paint myself, shave 
myself, diet myself half way to anorexia, speak in a soft tone, learn
to cook (I HATE cooking), serve a man, on and bloody on. Why in the
name of the Goddess should I want to spend all of my time being a 
mannequin -- just so that MAYBE someday, some man will CHOOSE me and
I will live happily ever after? Bullshit!

I don't understand why people shouldn't wear the clothing that makes
them most comfortable. If a man wants to wear a skirt -- WEAR A SKIRT!!
They are bloody comfortable and it makes total sense to me. People
should be free to adorn themselves as they choose. And if it is not
accepted by the brainwashed masses, well, so be it. 

As for me, many would say that I am 'cross-gendered'. Mu typical mode
of dress is loose jeans, boots, large sweaters or shirts. I only 
wear one earring. I don't wear make-up. My hair is not 'styled'. (It
is actually rather short with long strands of varying lengths just
kind of randomly 'left there'. And, no, I have never seen it elsewhere.
I thought of it one day, took a pair of scissors and did it.) I 
do not wear a bra but I do have a pierced nipple. I also have pierced 
labia. Because I want it. For no other reason. 

So, am I transgendered? Perhaps. I prefer to think that I am just
Gisle. Whoever the hell she is today. And it just irritates me to no
end that we have all of these boundaries -- all of these limits --
that have been determined by some cultural standard from thousands 
of years ago (or however long we have 'graced' the planet). 

This sort of stuff shouldn't even be an issue! Ghu! I certainly hope
that we evolve as a species (eventually) to an extent where all of
these definitions become irrelevant. 



freaking freely...


//gisle


Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: an299@anon.penet.fi (Judy)
Subject: TS show on TV
X-Anonymously-To: alt.transgendered
Organization: Anonymous contact service
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 19:53:48 GMT

did anyone catch Picket Fences this week?  This was one of the
few fictional portrayals of a TS that I have seen that touches
on the real issues.  Although a GG played the part, I was 
very impressed with the story and how the small town dealt
with the breaking story that she had once been a man.

Judy (|)
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Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: w2lee@argo.acs.oakland.edu (Lorraine Lee)
Subject: Vive la France!
Reply-To: w2lee@argo.acs.oakland.edu
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, MI
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 21:54:19 GMT

HERE IS A NEWS ITEM I TOOK THE LIBERTY OF COPYING OVER FROM SOC.MOTSS
From: msp@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu (Michael S. Pettersen)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Progress for Transsexuals in France (news item)
Date: 13 Dec 92 16:11:34 EST
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Physics

From le Monde, 13-14 December:  

The superior court [cour de cassation], in full assembly on Friday December
11, recognized the right of transsexuals to change their civil status.  This
judgement marks a reversal for the high court [juridication supreme], which
has refused since 1975 to grant this possibility to 13 people who wanted to
change their sex.

Two transsexuals, Rene, 35, and Marc, 24, appealed to the superior court
against two judgements of the court of appeals [cour d'appel] of Aix-en-
Provence, which denied them the right to have the entries concerning their
sex changed on their birth certificates, on the grounds that people's
status is not at their own disposition (no one can modify the status which is
theirs by virtue of law or nature).  The superior court found in their favor
by specifying:  "When, following surgical treatment undergone for therapeutic
purposes, a person displaying the syndrome of transsexualism no longer
possesses all of the characteristics of his or her original sex, and has taken 
on a physical appearance approaching that of the other sex, the principle of
due respect of privacy justifies the civil status indicating the sex
which the person appears to be."  This decision follows a judgement by the
European court of human rights on March 25, which ordered France to pay
an indemnity of 100,000 F [about $20,000] to Mr. Norbert B..., to whom
it had denied a change of civil status since 1979.

After years of legal battle, France thus aligns itself with other
European countries such as Sweden, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands,
Denmark, Turkey [!], Finland and Spain.  But the importance of the
judgement of the superior court is above all in the implied consequences.
In theory, nothing further prevents the marriage of transsexuals or
the possibility of their undertaking adoption procedures.

[end of article]

I hope I've given reasonable translations of the French legal terms.

I was surprised to find this matter still under question.
Anybody know what US law says about it?
--
Mike Pettersen, Ecole Normale Superieure
msp@physique.ens.fr
Perfect love casteth out fear.

Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: ag055@yfn.ysu.edu (Ward Chanley)
Subject: Re: Accidental Crossdressers
Organization: Youngstown State University/Youngstown Free-Net
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 02:53:25 GMT


And how would _your_ life be different ifyou knew at 10 what you know
at 44?
----

If the question refers to 
homosexuality, I knew when I was 10.

-- 
I thank the Goddess for my life,
I thank the Goddess for my loves,
I thank the Goddess for continued blessings.
     -- Z Budapest
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: benedict@dg-rtp.dg.com (Dale Benedict)
Subject: Re: Vive la France! 
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 04:04:04 GMT
Distribution: us
Organization: Data General Corporation, Research Triangle Park, NC


In article <724292933snz@morgan.demon.co.uk>, tony@morgan.demon.co.uk (Tony Kidson) writes:
> I know that the UK still follow the reactionary line and will not change 
> birth certificates. I think it's a state matter in the US.

There is good news for those born in North Carolina--the state issues a new birth
certificate.  The old birth certificate is destroyed.  I'm a little surprised that
the old records are destroyed, but that is what my friend tells me.  She was 
responsible for the change in policy over 10 years ago.

First, the state just crossed out the part which indicated sex as "M" and then
marked "F".   Not really acceptable if you don't want people to know about
your past...  After a lot of lobbying by a lawyer (and lawyer fees for my friend),
the office responsible for the policy agreed to in-state a new policy of 
re-issuing birth certificates for people that undergo SRS.  

Does anyone know the policy in Michigan (my home state)?


_________________________________ 
Dale Benedict
Internet: benedict@dg-rtp.dg.com
I speak for myself, not my employer...

Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: ae907@yfn.ysu.edu (Roberta Steel)
Subject: Interesting Concept
Reply-To: ae907@yfn.ysu.edu (Roberta Steel)
Organization: St. Elizabeth Hospital, Youngstown, OH
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 20:05:26 GMT


In a previous article, scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Kelly Martin) says:

>
>gender is best measured (as far as i can tell) on a biaxial gradiated
>scale.  one axis is masculinity and the other is femininity.  (this is
>a personal theory, btw, nothing scientific)
>

Usually we put gender on a single axis ranging from masculine to feminine.
A biaxial scale offers interesting possibilities.

Please elaborate on your ideas.  They might get us out of the one track
gender rut.

Roberta

-- 
Roberta

To err is human,
to really screw up, you need a computer.
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: devin@frodo.Colorado.EDU (Sonja Orlavski)
Subject: Re: Me? Clueless? Naaah :)
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 23:06:41 GMT

Roy S. Rapoport (rsr@soda.berkeley.edu) wrote:
: In article <1992Dec16.231452.13305@colorado.edu> devin@frodo.Colorado.EDU (Sonja Orlavski) writes:
: ->Someone somewhat glibly responded to your question 'How does one
: ->self-identify as a woman' with the statement "I am a woman."  Sounds kinda
: ->silly, but that's about it.  When one of your fundamental axioms about
: ->your world is that your gender is such-and-such (male, female, both,neither,
: ->other, whatever), it becomes very difficult to explain why.  It just is.
: I can see your point, though I'm not sure I agree with it.
: You see, I don't know if just taking these axioms of one's being without
: thinking about them is the best way.  For me, at least.  

I didn't suggest not thinking about them, or not challenging them.
I have done both.  However, once you have thought about them, and
challenged them, and accepted them for a time (I never stop questioning
my axioms!), it's still difficult to explain them to someone else, aside
from, "X is so."

: *sigh* I can understand where you're coming from... The problem is that
: I can't _justify_ saying "I am a man," because I don't _know_ what
: that means (I know what living in a man's body is, though).  I was hoping
: that people who have thought of this more than I have (and I assume[d] that
: y'all would) would know more than I do ... 

God(dess) knows I've thought about it a lot.  I still haven't come up with
an explanation for it, really.  (Actually, "I am a woman" is an
oversimplification as well..."I am not a man, exactly" is accurate but
incomplete.  I personally don't even have a concice statement in English
of my axiom!)  I am what I am.  I've stopped worrying about identifying
exactly who I am and worry much more about coping with who I am, whatever
that may be.

			-Deb

--
Deborah Parks (RP90)  (SotM 7/91)  DoD #0034  deb@boulder.colorado.edu   ------
"It's being both that's a bitch."                                      --\--- /
"I wanted to take my brain to hell and back and see what I had left."  \  \ //
"This howling in the distance, it's a captivating sound.                \  \/
        Can't tell if it's ecstasy or pain..."  -DW                      \/
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: an852@anon.penet.fi
Subject: Test Message
X-Anonymously-To: alt.transgendered
Organization: Anonymous contact service
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 02:08:36 GMT

Yet another test posting.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: karsten@ultrax.alf.dec.com (Kimberly Karsten)
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
Subject: test
Date: 14 Dec 92 21:01:34 GMT
Reply-To: karsten@ultrax.alf.dec.com (Kimberly Karsten)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


--
  Test this is a test


/*   Kimberly A Karsten, karsten@decatl.alf.dec.com | The heck with the brass
 *   Digital Equipment Corporation                  | ring go for the Gold
 *   5555 Windward Parkway west                     |
 *   Alpharetta, GA. 30201-7407    USA              |
 * The options express are mine and mine alone!
 */
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: tony@morgan.demon.co.uk (Tony Kidson)
Subject: Re: Me? Clueless? Naaah :) 
Distribution: world
Organization: Not much.
Reply-To: tony@morgan.demon.co.uk
X-Mailer: Simple NEWS 1.90 (ka9q DIS 1.18)
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 11:11:25 +0000


In article <1gtt96INNbr9@im4u.cs.utexas.edu> russw@cs.utexas.edu writes:

[Deleted to save space]

>So I'm curious: would most people feel horrible living in the body of
>one given sex, or would you be happy in either sex (assuming you didn't
>get hassled by obnoxious society...).  I personally would like to live
>in the future when sex changes are easy, cheap and safe.  ("Gee, I think
>I'll go to the party in a female body tonight...")

Well, I guess everybody's been curious at some point in their lives. The idea 
of changing ones sex certainly goes back as far as the Greeks. I guess that 
if the experience were available for 'free' most people with any imagination 
at all would want to try it. Perhaps the virtual reality route will allow 
this one day.



Tony (insatiably curious)


------------------+-------------------------------+--------------------------+
| Tony Kidson     |`morgan' is an 8MB  486/33 Cat-| Voice +44 81 466 5127    |
| Morgan Towers,  |Warmer with a 670 MB Hard Disk.| E-Mail                   |
| Morgan Road,    |It  resides at Morgan Towers in| tony@morgan.demon.co.uk  |
| Bromley,        |Beautiful  Down Town  Bromley. | tny@cix.compulink.co.uk  |
| England BR1 3QE |            -=<*>=-            | 100024.301@compuserve.com|
+=================+===============================+==========================+
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: rsvanc00@nx13.mik.uky.edu (Randolph S. Vance)
Subject: Re: WHY?
    <1992Dec14.192314.5431@news.ysu.edu>     
    <1992Dec15.014155.19049@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca>,
    <rsvanc00.724416161@mik.uky.edu> 
    <1992Dec15.204918.17518@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca>,
    <celeste-151292162249@128.158.16.248> 
    <1992Dec16.000058.8699@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca>
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences
X-Path: nx13.mik.uky.edu!rsvanc00
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 20:23:24 GMT

Seems like wDICKson@mta.ca is FINALLY at a loss for words! :)

Now do you think he'll quit this nonsense? :)

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Randolph S. Vance

              RSVANC00@mik.uky.edu (NeXT Mail)
              RSVANC00@ukpr.uky.edu
              RSVANC00@ukcc.uky.edu

QUOTE: "I'll watch some TV, it'll help me to RELAX!"
              -Ren Hoek

--------------------------------------------------------------------

PS, wdickson@mta.ca, GET OFF YOUR CRUCIFIX! WE NEED THE WOOD! ;)
Xref: sparky alt.transgendered:320 sci.med:22698
From: dank@cco.caltech.edu (Daniel R. Kegel)
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered,sci.med
Subject: Re: Hormones and breast size
Date: 16 Dec 1992 18:41:19 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu
Followups-to: alt.transgendered

>Celeste writes:
>>I was told of a pre op transsexual (born male) that with the help of her 
>>encronlgist went off hormones to enpregnate her wife. Was successful! Got back
>>on hormones and was able to breast feed her child!

ken@shell.portal.com (Ken R Drottar) writes:
>This is fantasy land stuff, Celeste. Dangerous fantasy land. The fact
>is no one is really sure what effect unnatural levels of hormones have
>on newborns. There are hints. DES is a form of estrogen that was given
>to expectant mothers who appeared to be at risk of miscarriage. Twenty
>years later, the female children of these mothers were found to have
>cervical cancer. Hormones are known to be excreted by the breast. Birth
>control pills carry a warning against their use while breast feeding.

>When a parent puts his/her needs and desires above potential health
>hazards to their child, that parent is being neglectful and abusive.

Ken's points, that 
    one should not put one's whims above the safety of one's child,
    one would have to avoid unnatural levels of hormones in the milk,
    and that steroids can be very dangerous,
are well taken.
But we're not talking about using hazardous steroids like DES, just the hormones
that naturally occur in women!

I know that hormones are occasionally given to mothers to induce lactation,
and it seems reasonable that the same could work in men.
Are the hormone levels needed to achieve functioning breasts in men
really different from the levels needed in women?  I don't see any obvious
reason this would be so.

Can anyone in sci.med land comment (informedly :-) on whether male breast
feeding as Celeste describes is practical?
- Dan K.
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: noid@nick.csh.rit.edu (i live in the dark)
Subject: Re: Vive la France! 
Organization: Computer Science House @ RIT
Distribution: us
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 05:45:58 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.040404.14946@dg-rtp.dg.com> benedict@dg-rtp.dg.com (Dale Benedict) writes:
>
>In article <724292933snz@morgan.demon.co.uk>, tony@morgan.demon.co.uk (Tony Kidson) writes:
>> I know that the UK still follow the reactionary line and will not change 
>> birth certificates. I think it's a state matter in the US.
>
>There is good news for those born in North Carolina--the state issues a new birth
>certificate.  The old birth certificate is destroyed.  I'm a little surprised that
>the old records are destroyed, but that is what my friend tells me.  She was 
>responsible for the change in policy over 10 years ago.
>
>First, the state just crossed out the part which indicated sex as "M" and then
>marked "F".   Not really acceptable if you don't want people to know about
>your past...  After a lot of lobbying by a lawyer (and lawyer fees for my friend),
>the office responsible for the policy agreed to in-state a new policy of 
>re-issuing birth certificates for people that undergo SRS.  
>
>Does anyone know the policy in Michigan (my home state)?
>
>
>_________________________________ 
>Dale Benedict
>Internet: benedict@dg-rtp.dg.com
>I speak for myself, not my employer...
>

i was born in germany on a united states air force bace.  therefore, my birth
	certificate was issued and signed by the secretary of state in
	washington, dc.  does anyone know if this can be changed.  how hard
	is it to get the government to reissue something like this???
	any experience???


love and hugs
kathy




Newsgroups: alt.transgendered
From: wdickeson@mta.ca
Subject: Re: WHY?
Reply-To: wdickeson@mta.ca
Organization: Mount Allison U, Sackville, N.B. Canada 
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 01:41:55 GMT

In article <1992Dec14.192314.5431@news.ysu.edu>, ae907@yfn.ysu.edu (Roberta Steel) writes:
>
>In a previous article, wdickeson@mta.ca () says:
>
>> I HATE TO HAVE TO ASK YOU THIS BUT WHY IN GOD'S NAME WOULD
>>ANYONE CHOOSE TO BE A CROSS-DRESSER?  
>We don't choose; God made us this way.
I have to disagree- unless you are a biological hermaphrodite, you are 
one (I repeat ONE) of two sexes!
>
>NOT ONLY IS IT IMMORAL,
>>UN-NATURAL,AND SINFULL, IT IS JUST PLAIN PERVERTED!!!!!!!!
>Don't be silly.
Don't be oblivious to fact that a man trying to be a woman is all of the
above- including silly!


>>LET'S FACE THE FACTS - YOU ARE WHAT GOD CREATED YOU TO BE-
>>EITHER A MAN OR A WOMAN! 
>Or sometimes both.
Wrong!- God created Adam and Eve, not Eve and her freak companion Adam
who sometimes wears a dress and calls himself Vickie !?!&$#@!>
>WHAT KIND OF BLASPHEMOUS SINNERS ARE
>>YOU EXPECTING TO INTERFERE WITH GOD'S POWER. 
>What kind do we have to be?
>The kind that can go straight to !?@%^*(#!
>YOU SURE AS HELL CAN'T
>>BE BOTH GENDERS THAT'S FOR SURE.
>Who says?
>Sanity? God? 
>>   STOP FOOLING YOURSELVES AND COME BACK TO THE REAL WORLD.
>My world is real; I just see it from two viewpoints.
>Pscychological problems anyone?
>>ATTEMPTING TO BE SOMETHING YOU'RE NOT (WHICH IS WHAT YOU'RE DOING)
>Actually, I am attempting to be what I really am.
>What's that? Someone who doesn't comprehend the differences between X and
Y chromosomes? Someone who fails to comprehend that denying your gender
is an obvious sign of poor self-esteem and a lack of comprehension of the
real world? Someone who suffers from mental problems (dillusions)?

>>IMPLIES DIRECTLY THAT YOU ARE SOMEHOW DISAPPOINTED WITH WHAT
>>GOD CREATED YOU TO BE.
>I am quite happy with what She did.
>If you are so unattached to genders why apply one to God?
>>   WE ARE ALL BEAUTIFUL PEOPLE IN OUR OWN RIGHT AND THE SOONER 
>>YOU GAIN THE SELF-CONFIDENCE TO REALIZE THAT THE REAL YOU IS GOOD 
>>ENOUGH FOR US ALL, THE BETTER OFF YOU'LL BE.
>Right you are!  BTW, would you be confident enough to wear a dress in public?
>Yes I would, BUT I WOULD NEVER DO SO since I am a MAN not a woman. Dresses
are for women and I have the mental capabilities to understand which of 
the two genders I am.
>>   IN SHORT, TAKE THE DRESSES OFF YOU GAY IMMORAL FREAKS!!!
>You would prefer that we be nacked?  Shame on you!
>Perverted
 thought from a perverted mind!   Sad,sad,sad
Newsgroups: alt.transgendered