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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 01:20:00 +0000
From:         ga921008@MCIS.MESSIAH.EDU
Subject:      Jumping in

Kerry,

I have written a paper comparing Augustine's views on sexuality with those
of the Talmudic writers.  The Talmud covers an entire shelf in the college
library and is difficult reading.  There are some real gems in it, though.
Good luck!

--Greg Aist
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 09:36:03 -0600
From:         jim coen <coen@ACC.WUACC.EDU>
Subject: Re: wrong name (OOPs!)

From Sandy,

>Let me take this opportunity to say how great it is to be part of an
>international fellowship of Christians through Christia, and to be
>free to exchange ideas, concerns, prayer needs, questions, and
>encouragement.  The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all.
>
>Cheers, Sandy Sartorelli
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>Sandy Sartorelli                Internet: sandy.cit@mhsgate.cit.ac.nz
>                                MHS: sandy@cit via nhub

My sentiments exactly!

God Bless!

Jim Coen
coen@acc.wuacc.edu
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 10:23:14 NZT
From:         Sandy Sartorelli <sandy.cit@MHSGATE.CIT.AC.NZ>
Subject:      Re: Seeking input on confession of faith

  ** XGATE SHAREWARE TRIAL PERIOD EXPIRED **

Kerry!!!!!!!!

Your confession of faith is so beautiful!  Truly you have a wonderful
gift!  (I am almost lost for words but still I  stupidly keep typing
in an effort to communicate that you have touched my SOUL with your
confession of faith).

I am afraid I cannot help you at all except to pray for you and your
church family and the difficult and testing times you are facing.
But please know you have helped me tremendously with your witness of
faith.

Perhaps I should explain  . . . . . my own faith has been tested over
the last (at least) six months and found badly wanting.  Part of the
problem was that I had studied with Jehovah's Witnesses in the past
and I still have real trouble accepting the Trinity Doctrine and the
deity of Jesus, and a few things like that.  (Even when I renounce
my doubts they keep coming back like a bad dream).
Also a problem with a (pretty severe) low self-esteem kept getting in
the way of all my relationships, including my relationship with Jesus.
Things were getting to the point where I could hardly cope until I
finally admitted I had a problem and went to my pastor.  That was 6
months ago.  Since then I have recieved counselling from a very kind
lady in my church named Ruth, but progress is slow (it seems that
anything worth having comes at cost).  I still have MANY doubts, and
I have found that if I foster one (doubt), many more come slowly
trickling in.  That is why a confession of faith such as yours is so
valuable.  I hope Kerry that you will allow me to keep it and to use
it - I hope one day soon to be able to make the full confession to
Jesus in full sincerity and truly believing every word.

Sorry to lay all that on you - not the response you were expecting.
But I just wanted you to know that you really have helped.  Thanks.

And to all you CHRISTIAns out there thanks for listening.  I hope you
will excuse me for being so personal, but I put this up on the list
because I could use your prayers right now.


Cheers, Sandy Sartorelli
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Sandy Sartorelli                Internet: sandy.cit@mhsgate.cit.ac.nz
                                              MHS: sandy@cit via nhub
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 16:23:04 -0500
From:         "jones, mark" <JMJONES@UGA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Prayer request
              21 Jan 1993 13:30:36 -0700 from <S05152@DOC.FLC.COLORADO.EDU>

To Glen Radinsky:

Father, we ask that you look down on your servant, Glen. Lord in the name
of Jesus we ask for your very best to be rained down upon him. Lord let
him shine in the eyes of this and all potential employers, and may his
hard work and ability find him favor in their eyes! Lord, if your eye is
on the sparrow, and the lilies of the field, then Lord, we know that Glen
is in the palm of your hand under your careful watch! Father, we cant wait
to hear how you will show yourself faithful to this brother. I am so thankful
that tough job markets and bad economies are no match for your love and care.
We ask that your perfect will be done in brother Glen's life. Thank you Lord.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 22:34:36 -0500
From:         "Michael A. Kline" <MKLINE@VDH.BITNET>
Subject:      New List

    (We still haven't figured out how to charge liberals the $10...)

      (For those that don't watch Rush, this will make no sense...)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Conservative Christian Discussion List (CONCHR-L at TEMPLEVM)

Well, the list must be in place. Still have some things to do on it,
but it appears to be alive and well.

Now, I'll take the liberty to say what I THINK the list is for. Luis
and I, and the members will try to work out a header as time goes on.
It is for those that favor most of the things similar to what I have
been posting, not because it is right, not because God is a conservative,
but because we do believe that God is not a gimme, gimme, gimme, and
that a more conservative approach to life, government and relationships
is the way to go.

We believe "Rush is right" (most of the time), and we believe that
programs like the 700 Club when it calls people to prayer, to a
monogamous relationship with one spouse are saying so to our good,
not our detriment. We believe "God helps them who help themselves,"
though we heartily acknowledge that God also "helps those who can't
help themselves."

We believe the Bible to be the Word of God and that it speaks to us
today. Granted there may be some things that were seasonal, for the
current culture, but we don't necessarily just throw them out as
we believe they too, speak to us today.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear networker,

  As of Tuesday, January the 19th of  1993, you have been added to the LISTSERV
distribution  list CONCHR-L  (Conservative Christian  Discussion List)  by Luis
Rivera <ISAIAS@TEMPLEVM.BITNET>.

  You may leave the list at any time by sending a "SIGNOFF CONCHR-L" command to
LISTSERV@TEMPLEVM.BITNET  (or LISTSERV@VM.TEMPLE.EDU).  Please  note that  this
command must  NOT be sent  to the list  address (CONCHR-L@TEMPLEVM) but  to the
LISTSERV address (LISTSERV@TEMPLEVM).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
List header. Still got a lot of work to do.
*
* This list is for the discussion of issues pertaining to conservative
* Christian views.
*
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

In His Love,

  Michael A. Kline, Sr. SSE
  Systems Eng. Manager    804-786-1559    Home:
  Va Dept of Health (FAX: 804-786-7528)   13308 Thornridge Ct.
  1500 E Main St. Room 211-3              Midlothian, VA  23112
  Richmond, Virginia  23219               804-744-9126
  "Know God, Know Peace"                  "No God, No Peace"
  "Champions are not men who never failed, but men who never quit"
                                          Ed Kole
  "I didn't vote for Clinton...."
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Original_To:  BITNET%"CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET"
Original_cc:  RITER
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 07:01:00 EDT
From:         RITER@EVMSVMS.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Mormon/LDS

At a very low time in my husband's and my life, we joined the Mormon
church along with my sister's family.  We were attracted to the strong
family values which they emphasized along with clean living.  The
missionaries talked with us about the things that other churches
believe.  We did not see anything in the religion that was not
Christian.  The day we were baptized, we learned of baptism of the
dead and the fact that there was a "Heavenly Mother" with God who
together and is still producing us in Heaven and we are then sent to
this world through the aid of our "earthly" parents.  We immediately
wondered what we had gotten into.  We stopped attending and they
hounded us.  We finally learned that we had to request being
ex-communicated from the church.  My husband and I are to this day
still embarrassed that we were so vulnerable and easily duped into
such a thing.  This is the first I have spoken of this experience.
A dear friend of mine who is a Christian, came back into my life
during the ex-communication phase and she was the one who introduced
me to Christ.  I was saved almost seven years ago (although I was
not baptized until a little over a year ago).  The Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter Day Saints is not Christian.  They believe Joseph
Smith to be a prophet of God and is worshipped alongside Christ.
My husband and I do consider them a cult and we are so glad that
we are now Christians.  We are tolerant of others, but we do pray
for them since we've been there ourselves and now know the truth.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 17:24:28 -0400
From:         "HEATHER \"Apple\" MORRISON" <9124303@SSCVAX.CIS.MCMASTER.CA>
Subject:      Re: New List

Hi all!!
        This is my firs
t posting.  I just noticed a mail about archives.
Can someone please tell me how to access archives for Christia and to s

find out what is available??  I am curious and would like to find out
more information.
        I just set this list to nomail for a little while because of
all the overwhelming email traffic.  Could anyone respond to me personally?
Thanks!!
        Heather  9124303@sscvax.cis.mcmaster.ca
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 28 Jan 1993 10:26:57 PST
From:         "LCDR Andrew W. Melton, USN" <6243P@NAVPGS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Gays in the Military?

In reply to Yvette's question, the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ)
 lists sodomy and other homsexual acts as one of those things that are prohibit
ed in the military. At present, it is a court-martial offense and usually resul
ts in discharge. Until yesterday, everyone who entered the military signed a
statement that they were not homosexual and made an oath that their statements
were true. John's point is exactly correct in that homosexuality is biblically
sinful and it distresses me that our country would take this next step to
legitimize such behavior.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 11:05:19 EST
From:         Dan Harling <harling@ROADRUNNER.PICTEL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Countries Turning to God

> Date: 22 Jan 1993 15:52:26 -0700 (MST)
> From: Usenet/Netnews Moderator <FOCMCB@asuvm.inre.asu.edu>
> Subject: Re: Countries Turning to God
> To: Multiple recipients of list CHRISTIA <CHRISTIA@asuvm.inre.asu.edu>
>
> ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
> >Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
> >From: pmoloney@maths.tcd.ie (Paul Moloney)
> >Subject: Re: Countries Turning to God
> >Organization: Somewhere in the Twentieth Century
> >Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 19:37:27 GMT
>
> Sure, I love 'ET' and 'Star Wars', but I also like 'Good Fellas' and 'The
> Godfather'. Try making them PG.
>
> Or are you suggesting that films like that shouldn't be made?

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I have found that I would have
found most of the R-rated films I have seen even *more* enjoyable if
they had made the violence a little less graphic and the sex a little
less explicit, and put that creativity toward better screenplay and
character development.  A lot of R-rated movies *could* be made PG by
trading the blatant for the subtle, but I must conclude that that
talent is very rare in the film industry today.

All of my favorite movies (and I mean ALL) are rated PG.  I rarely
enjoy R-rated movies any more, because their highly explicit images are
so distracting that they don't engage my mind at all--they don't make
me think.  My favorite part of Arnold Schwartzenegger's movies like
_Terminator_ is the setting at the introduction.  They are all very
fascinating visions of the future.  Unfortunately, that soon becomes
drowned in uninterrupted scenes of graphic violence, to the point where
the fascinating setting is all but forgotten, and perhaps irrelevant.

My advice to today's film directors is a lesson I learned in my Western
Lit. class in college: sometimes, what you *don't* say or show is more
effective than what you *do* say or show.
____________________________________________________________________________
Daniel A. Harling                        (harling@pictel.com)
PictureTel Corp.             Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of
Peabody, MA  01960                   PictureTel Corp. (so there!)
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 08:09:30 -0500
From:         "jones, mark" <JMJONES@UGA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Countries Turning to God
              21 Jan 1993 22:13:05 CST from <sweberg@GARFIELD.WES.ARMY.MIL>

RE: Scott Weberg's commentary on the media...

This has been on my mind since the Pat Robertson/statistics/objectivity
debate started...

I really got the idea that many people responding must uphold the secular
media as some sort of standard or "pearl" of absolute objectivity. Give
me a break! Are you saying that Pat, Rush or anyone else should aspire to
the same unbiased and fair coverage of the news that UPI, AP, CBS/NBC/ABC
and CNN exemplify? Oh and let's not forget their completely scientific and
rational use of statistics.....NOT!!!!!
Have you ever wondered why you except for the faces and the little human
interest stories, that you can't tell the difference between the network
news? Have you ever seen a breaking story with far-reaching implications
buried on page d-12 next to the crossword? Is it obvious to anyone else
that the media has its own agenda? Actually, it seems more like a fairly
subtle re-education program to me. They have told us what to think, how
we should feel and where our values should be. And now in the age of
"PC", we are slowly being stripped of our freedom of speech; to disagree
with certain issues and to voice those disagreements is social, political
and in some cases, professional suicide.

I was listening to Larry Burkette this morning on the way to work, and
he was interviewing a lady named Carol .....I forget her last name. She
is a former abortionist, and had some fascinating and sickening facts about
the abortion industry. She had performed many thousands of abortions, and
had some very startling figures on the profitability of the industry, and
the risks associated with abortions (scary!). In spite of having published
books on the subject, and speaking widely to large audiences, not once has
she ever been approached by a major network or wire service. Wonder why?
Some thoughts....Mark
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 16:52:46 MST
From:         Madge McBurney <ISPMOM@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: THE LIST OWNERS' REQUEST TO STOP DISCUSSING ROBERTSON.
              21 Jan 1993 08:46:00 MST from <SKLEPZI@SSB1.SAFF.UTAH.EDU>

I'm reposting this so that those on Usenet who don't receive Steven's mail
can read it too.  ( Thanks Steven!! )

Christia co-owner   Bitnet:   ispmom@asuacad
Madge McBurney      Internet: ispmom@asuvm.inre.asu.edu

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
On Thu, 21 Jan 1993 08:46:00 MST Steven Klepzig said:
>I did not request that discussions about Pat Roberston end, although I am
>perfectly willing to do so.  I asked that discussions concerning him be held
>with civility amongst and about list members.  Now, if requesting that
>discussions be civil means that someone feels they can't participate then I
>guess that I am calling for discussion to end, at least for them.  However,
>that is not what was requested this time.
>
>And yes, to be perfectly blunt, we do own the list and can request or demand
>topics to drop off.  We can unsubscribe whom we wish, kill the usenet news
>feed, even moderate the listserv list.
>
>If anyone has a complaint, please write to me.  I actually do listen and
>discuss things.  Some people do write to me but most don't.  Most just get
>offended when I cross some line they've defined.  Oh well...
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X-Orig-To: CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 13:18:10 CST
Comments:     Answering received message
From:         THERESA BLACKWELL <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
Subject:      Hot Spot Alert!!! :) ;)

Steven,
I thank you very much for hitting on some of what I said in my post
concerning LDS people.  You were right about the D&C, and Pearl of
Great Price.  I'd forgotten that these two books are also used in
conjuction with the Bible itself.  (Sometimes I wish My Grandparents
would just wise up...I've tried to witness to my grandpa, but we always
tie up about "who's right and who's wrong"...it's not that, I just
want him to know where I stand.  Know what I mean??? Yeah, I still love
these two precious people very much, and do in fact believe in their
Salvation.  But, I believe my Grandmom is more "tolerant" of the rest
of her immediate family-we're ALL SOUTHERN BAPTIST! So, when we go
to her house for Thanksgiving/Christmas, it's kinda weird, but... we
still have fun as Christian people.
I think it's more whether or not you've allowed Christ to become
Lord and Saviour-not the Church you attend.  BUT-that doesn't mean
I agree with what they stand for on some issues (of the Faith, and
otherwise-).
Man, after reading what I just typed, I sure hope this made SENSE!
:)
Keep up the good work- (hey, Madge...where've you been???)
God Bless you today,
"G"

 * <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
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Original_To:  CHRISTIA
Original_cc:  HUTTER
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 12:50:00 N
From:         Wolfgang Hutter <HUTTER@DULRUU51.BITNET>
Subject:      Tithes and Giving

Dear CHRISTIAns!

I am becoming increasingly concerned over some opinions and practices
mentioned recently on CHRISTIA under this topic. Strangely enough my
controversial statements in an earlier post were never debated. Maybe it
was too long after all. - Anyway. I'll try to make it even shorter...

1) Tithes and the Law:

People gave their tithe when the (Mosaic) Law was not yet in existence.
So giving the tithe is not necessarily linked to observing the Law.

2) Tithes and taxes:

If you consider the regulations of the Law you perceive that the average
Israelite did  * not *  give 10% of his income, but MORE! He gave
between 20 and 30%. Some of the money was used to pay for governmental
issues and/or social purposes. So you might even consider subtracting
your taxes from your tithes - not from the income before you tithe. :-)
HOWEVER: 10% of the income (i.e. one tithe of two or three) was used for
the spiritual ministers. This is usually what your local church does for
you. So it would be clear to me that 10% of our gross income go to the
local church. (as clear as it would be that this church would use it in
an appropriate way!).

3) Tithes and slavery

I think that it is good for us to give a tithe to the local church.
BUT - we should beware to think that God has to be content with a tenth
of our income! The Bible is pretty clear that we are not our own. We are
set free from sin and enslaved to God. We have no right whatsoever to
decide how much to give to God! He owns ALL of our income! HE should
decide how much we should spend on whatever. And if our income is so
small that we need almost all of it to pay for the basic needs of
ourselves or our family then God will most probably decide to spend it
on these issues. - I don't see a problem!

How can we dare to say that Jesus is our Lord and then go on to say: you
get 10% of my (net/gross) income and that's it - be content! Either He
is Lord OF all or He's not Lord AT all.

Shalom,
Wolfgang <><

--
hutter@dulruu51.bitnet
hutter@rzmain.rz.uni-ulm.de
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 13:29:28 CST
From:         A16905@ITESO.BITNET
Subject: Re: Mormon/LDS

Michelle,

As I recall, LDS believe that:

- God is a phisical being that adquired the divine nature (never ask how).
- People can also become divine.
- Adam and God are the same person.
- Jesus is Son of God, therefore Son of Adam = Son of Man.
- Jesus was begoten by some sort of sexual relationship between Mary and
  God-Adam.
- All other curches are driven by the devil.
- divine people can have many sexual partners (they used to be poligamists
  in their early days).

Not very orthodox as you can see, they are, generally, very kind and
respectful people, willing to attend to other churches services when
necesary and to behave themselves (don't spect that from a JW attending
to a Catholic Mass). Most denominations don't consider them as Christians.

They also believe that the Gospel of Jesus as found in the Bible is incomplete
and they have added the book of Mormon (a hidden prophet) and some
writtings of J. Smith, their founder as inspired word of God.

I have not read the book of Mormon (some day, I hope) but I am told that
it is kind of a novel about Jesus came to America after His Resurrection.

Smith claimed that he copied the book of Mormon directly from the original
written in solid gold and that God preserves in a hidden place. The book
was presented to him by an Angel.

That's what I know about LDS.

Shalom,
Memo.
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