HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tmi@well.sf.ca.us (Peter Kasler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Underwater shooting???
Date: 14 Aug 92 13:31:35 GMT
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link

In <1992Aug13.153551.19922@btree.uucp> btree!hale@UCSD.EDU (Bob Hale) writes:

#It's interesting to note that Glock has a special firing pin designed
#for using their pistol under water.

	Actually, the only thing different on a Glock pistol
configured for underwater firing is that the standard spring cups are
replaced with "amphibious" spring cups. Spring cups are actually two
halves of a split-bushing-type device that is used chiefly to retain
the firing pin spring on the firing pin. Neither the firing pin itself
nor any part except the spring cups are changed to convert a Glock
pistol for underwater use.

	Also note that Glock will not provide their amphibious spring
cups to anyone except certain qualified military units, and even then
such personnel are required to sign a "Waiver/Letter of Understanding"
before receiving the parts.
-- 
                           Peter Alan Kasler
                      Threat Management Institute
                 800 West Napa Street, Sonoma, CA 95476
     Voice: 707-939-0303  =  tmi@well.sf.ca.us  =  Fax: 707-935-1713
From: msc9203@geovax.edinburgh.ac.uk (C.A.Anderson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Top Man Stoppers??
Date: 17 Aug 92 14:44:09 GMT
Organization: University of Edinburgh, Geography Department.



(Robert Slugg) writes:
# at a Baltimore, MD gun show one dealer had all sorts of specialty shotgun
# ammo, including the bolo-wire round.  They also had one called the
# door-buster or somesuch which was a 7/8 oz prefractured deer slug sitting
# on top of 6 pellets of 00 buck.  The load information for the latter is in
# the ballistic products buckshot and deer slug data book.  We are always
# cautioned about using factory ammo and not handloads for self defense, so
# my question is what constitutes factory ammo.  Is it the size of the
# company, the purpose of the ammo, new components throughout, or can my
# friend supply with reloads that he calls factory ammo, such as the stuff I
# reluctantly have to buy at some indoor ranges?   Just looking for more
# things to do with my new grabber.
# 

Sometime last year I received a flyer for some strange ammo, some of it was the
type you are referring to some had cloth bags of very fine shot to destroy door
hinges while not having any secondary projectile damage to 'hostages' inside
the room.  They had other strange things like two halves of a slug that were
connected by a segment of piano wire.  Theoretically they would make a bolo
while in flight (actually these were used to be used in the days of wooden
ships and cannons, made a mess of the other guys rigging).  One other thing
they had for sale was a round that would spray burning magnesium out when fired
which would subsequently burn for around 3 seconds.  The ad recommended sun
glasses as protection when fired at night because of the brightness and claimed
it would not hurt the firearm in any way when fired (oh really???).  The
company was under the name of "Blammo Ammo" strangely enough I didn't want to
try any of this stuff on my model 12.

For real man stoppers things other than cannon balls  have been used in times
of lack of standard ammunition, things that come to mind are kegs of nails and
crobars.  Be interesting to see what a mess these rounds mad, from behind the
cannon of course :-) .

-- 
                                                                 _______
Craig A. Anderson, Department of Geography                      /  ___  \
                           ________________                    /  /   \  \
University of Edinburgh   /# _____________O          --*      |  |  O  |  | 
Drummond Street          /##/_(/                               \  \___/  /
                        /##/                                    \_______/
Edinburgh, Scotland, United Kingdom, EH8 9XP                      
E-mail:  CBS%UK.AC.EDINBURGH.GEOVAX::MSC9203
From: hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re:  X's on Bullet
Date: 12 Aug 92 13:30:45 GMT
Organization: The Cat Factory

In article <9208070956.AA18295@mimsy.cs.UMD.EDU> C08926RC@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu (Rob) writes:

}My favorite movie trick - drill out the bullets, put a drop or
}two of mercury in the cavity, and re-seal it.  I believe this was
}done in the movie 'The Exterminator.'

"Day of the Jackal", both book and film.

}They never did say what advantages this gives....

It was supposed to make the bullet "explode" on impact -- actually a
primitive version of the Glaser or MagSafe. (The mercury is supposed to
splash forward out of the slug and wreak general havoc on the target).
I've no idea if it would actually work.  Fiction is a poor source of
factual information on such things (is that a tautology?).  I can see how
the wound would be a nightmare to treat.  Getting all the mercury out
would be nearly impossible.

The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com)
Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp                   Turn the rascals out!
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.   (310) 450-9111, x2483     No incumbents in '92!
Santa Monica, CA  90405
From: ghm@ccadfa.cc.adfa.oz.au (Geoff Miller)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Dropping slide on empty chamber
Date: 17 Aug 92 17:53:36 GMT
Organization: Australian Defence Force Academy, Canberra, Australia

rani@barsoom.nhh.no (Ragnar Nielsen) writes:

#In a fit of thoughtlessness, I managed to abuse my friends' Bowning HP
#in the above mentioned fashion at the range today, whereupon a bystander
#offered the following enlightenment:

#-'What you just did equals at least 1.000 shots' worth of wear to the gun.'

Is that 1.000 or 1,000 (i.e. one point zero zero zero or one thousand)?
Assuming that it was one thousand....

#I am fully aware that dropping the slide on an empty chamber is a no-no,
#but I'm curoius to the REAL amount of wear itcontributes.

#So, those of you who knows, is the quoted statement just gun.folklore or
#is it more or less the truth?

... I'd say it was gun.folklore.  Obviously, picking up a slide from the
magazine does retard the forward motion of the slide or bolt on a semi-
auto, but for the unretarded forward motion to represent such a vast
amount of wear seems very unlikely.  Note that many target pistols
(such as my own Walther GSP) do not have an automatic hold-open mechanism
operating after the last shot, so the manufacturers don't appear too
worried (and, for the cynical  -  no, the guns don't wear out quickly).

Bystanders on ranges are a notoriously inaccurate source of information.
Of course, that also includes me (except this time :-)

Geoff Miller (g-miller@adfa.oz.au)  |   Don't steal.  The government
Computer Centre                     |   hates competition.
Australian Defence Force Academy    |   (via Jeff Cooper)
From: erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 9mm major / 9x21 reloading question
Date: 17 Aug 92 17:53:22 GMT


Jim Del Vecchio writes:
#So if you load a 9mm up super hot, in a special gun, it can equal a
#38 Super...
#
#...I wonder why not just get a .38 super for this purpose?

Lots more guns to choose from in 9mm, and by extension 9x21.


#The Astra A-80s were made in 9mm, 30 Luger, and .38 Super, with 15+1
#rds for each caliber, and in .45 ACP, but the .30 and .38 have been
#left out of the A-100 line, due to a lack of consumer interest, I
#would guess.
#
#The .30 is a pretty wacky caliber*, imo, but I see nothing wrong with
#the .38 Spr, and I see little reason to prefer 9mm chambering to it,
#especialy for the reloader.
#
#*(It seems strange to have a full sized gun chambered to fire .32 ACP size
#bullets.)


I suspect the .30 and .38 are not offered in the US in the A-100 because
9mm can be owned by civilians here. Cartridges like the .30, 9x21, and
.38 are popular in countries like Italy which prohibit ownership of arms
in "military" calibers like 9mm Para.

What's wacky about the .30 "Luger"? Think of it as a 9mm necked down to
take a .30 bullet. In some guns caliber change can be effected by just
changing the barrel; muzzle energy is comparable to SAAMI 9mm. Winchester
still loads this round.

You may find it strange to have a full sized gun chambered to fire .32 ACP
size bullets; the M1 Carbine can therefore be seen as a long gun firing 
.32 ACP size bullets. THe difference of course is in velocity. Guns chambered
in 7.62x25 also fire .32 ACP size bullets; with Czech ammo they come out
at 1600 ft/s; just a bit faster than pocket pistols :)


Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
Protect the Second Amendment - boycott Ruger products
"That's not true," Bill hissed to his lawyer. "The facts are-"
"Don't worry about facts, Bill, no one else here does. Facts can't
alter this case."       -"Bill the Galactic Hero" Harry Harrison
From: burge@qdeck.com (Bill Burge)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Stainless barrels
Date: 22 Aug 92 14:55:04 GMT
Organization: Quarterdeck Office Systems, Santa Monica CA

In article <1992Aug19.212748.1446@math.ufl.edu> sorrow@maple.circa.ufl.edu writes:
#
#What are the advantages/disadvantages of a stainless barrel on a rifle?  Aside
#from the obvious corrosion resistance, how good is it when it comes to wear
#and tear, accuracy, cleaningability, etc.
#
#Specifically, this is for a REM 700 PSS in .308.
#
#Also, how much does one cost?
#
#Brian
#
#[MODERATOR: Does "it looks keen" count....?]

Does the fact that most/all Benchrest barrels are Stainless count?

Bill	burge@qdeck.com
From: dcwst8+@pitt.edu (David C Winters)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Top Man Stoppers???
Date: 15 Aug 92 17:00:47 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh


In article <1992Aug14.235904.9080@nsc.nsc.com> nsc!jrr@decwrl.dec.com (Jerry Roe) writes:
#In article <1992Aug10.180613.18592@news.eng.convex.com> cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) writes:
## [info on Marlin's 9mm Camp Carbine - deletia]
#
#Aren't they making the Camp Carbine in .45 ACP now also?  I think I'd
#prefer that over the 9MM.  Pipsqueak round, y'know...{:^)

Yup.  The sucker accepts the same magazines that the Colt .45 (and it's
clones) do (but not the shorter Officer's Model mags).

You do realize that, by posting that "pipsqueak round" comment, you're
just _asking_ for a "9mm vs. .45ACP vs. 30-'06 vs. 40mm grenade" thread... 

--
David Winters
dcwst8@unix.cis.pitt.edu *OR* winters@vms.cis.pitt.edu

	Illigitimi non carborundum
From: bakc@giraffe.ru.ac.za (MR KR COMAN)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Stupid shooter tricks
Date: 19 Aug 92 12:39:11 GMT
Organization: Rhodes University, Grahamstown, South Africa

My dad served in the RAF in WW2 and relates that part of their basic 
training involved being taught to fire the dreaded Sten gun.   The group of 
rookies were taken out to the range where a series of straw dummies had been 
set up.  One at a time, they were taken out to the front of the group by the 
sergeant-instructor and told to let off a full magazine on automatic.
	Things went well until one very dim individual got to have go.  The 
idea was to fire short bursts at each target.  Unfortunately when he took 
his finger off the trigger to shift to the next target, a little Sten 
gun foible surfaced -- the sear didn't engage and the thing kept firing, 
whereupon the rookie let out a despairing cry of "Sarg!!!" and began 
*pivoting around* from the hips towards the back of the firing line.  Never 
have 30 blokes -- including the sergeant -- moved so fast!!!   Fortunately, 
no one was hurt but the NCO's language was quite something!
	This left everyone a bit rattled, cos later on another poor chap 
adjusted his grip during a firing sequence and forget the 2nd of the Sten's 
idiosyncrasies -- his left forefinger got too close to the ejection port 
and it got the tip nipped off by the bolt.   All in all a successful day?

Cheers,
Keith
From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: bolo ammunition
Date: 20 Aug 92 01:02:35 GMT
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA

doi@tartarus.uwa.edu.au (Daniel Kuan Li Oi) writes:

#	I believe that there was ammunition produced during the civil
#war which consisted of wire connecting two cannon balls with the same
#propulsion charge out of it.  I am not sure how effective it was but the
#intention was the same as the other cannon. 

	This ammunition was produced prior to the Civil War.  As I
remember, it was around by the time of our Revolutionary War, and
perhaps prior to that.  The navies used these rounds to strip masts
and rigging (not to mention sailors) from enemy ships.  Once you
remove their propusion system, the target is literally a sitting duck.

	Note that the wooden-hulled ships often did not have cannon
shot penetrate their hulls.  Most of the internal damage was to sailors
from large splinters flying about the inside when a ball impacted the
side of the ship.  It was deemed appropriate to render the ship
immobile first, though, since incindiaries (sp?) can do a good job of
annoying sailors too, and you can toss them at your leisure.

<Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 |"There'll be angels on Ariels in leather>
<z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu | and chrome, Ridin' down from heaven    >
<viking@iastate.edu      | just to carry me home." -- R. Thompson >
< ISU thinks I need more education, which they provide for a fee. >
From: bercov@bevsun.bev.lbl.gov (John Bercovitz)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Rust control
Date: 17 Aug 92 17:53:12 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory, California

In article <1992Aug15.165815.2234@bbxrbk> bbx!bbxrbk!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu 
(Russ Kepler) writes:

#In article <9208141655.AA12322@dog.ee.lbl.gov> bercov@bevsun.bev.lbl.gov 
(John Bercovitz) writes:

##Muriatic is great for de-rusting - it leaves a spongy, easily removed
##iron mass behind when it converts the iron oxide to metal.  _However_,
##it is also A-1 at causing hydrogen embrittlement. So you must bake

#My suggestion was for using HCl for debluing, not for derusting.  If
#you keep the HCl from entering the bore or from hitting any of the
#lockwork or chamber, would you still need to bake-out the deblued
#parts?  I was sort of under the impression that hydrogen embrittlement
#didn't get much deeper than a few micrometers.

The hydrogen is highly mobile - once it gets into the metal it races
around quite easily.  But you're absolutely right - it's a matter of
degree.  The dilute rubbing solution you suggested is unlikely to
cause a problem if it's used expeditiously.  But on the other hand,
I can tell you from sad experience that dipping a spring in the pure stuff 
for a few seconds will cause it to snap when returned to service and flexed.
Rubbing the dilute solution on a large item such as a frame won't cause
a problem if you're fairly quick about it because there's a lot of
mass there for the hydrogen to run around in so the concentration stays
low.  If you're just using it for de-bluing, there's nothing to fear
because the bluing comes off very quickly so the exposure time is very
low, but I wouldn't remove bluing from a spring this way.  Electroplating
is _always_ a long-exposure process so you do have to bake-out in this case
every time if you have a sensitive material (e.g. tempered carbon steel).

John Bercovitz     (JHBercovitz@lbl.gov)
From: daveu@sco.COM (Dave Uebele)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Top Man Stoppers??
Date: 20 Aug 92 13:06:59 GMT
Organization: SCO Engineering, 150 Dubious St.


In article <1992Aug18.140803.17224@CERIS.Purdue.EDU> jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath) writes:

#BTW, does anyone know how explosive cannon balls (or modern
#cannon shells for that matter) worked?  It doesn't seem like they
#could have run the fuse throught the touch hole and achieved any
#speed.  Did they load the fuse against the powder charge and hope
#for the best? 
I do civil war reenactments and I'm in the artillery so this is a
question I get asked fairly often.  The fuze in the shell is ignited
by the main powder charge.  The fuze is at the forward end of the shell.
There is enough flame going around the shell to ignite the fuze in front.
The particular cannon I use is a 10 pound Parrot Rifle, which fires a
cylindrical shell (kind of a semiwadcutter).  The base of the shell has a 
brass cup bolted to it that expands upon firing to seal the bore and
engage the rifling but enough flame gets by to ignite the fuze.

My understanding is that these fuzes had about a 40-70 percent
success rate (it depends on the exact type).  I can get more detailed
information if you are interested.

On the inside of the ammo chest, for each type of gun is a chart giving
times for different ranges. The fuzes are marked according to the rate they
burn and if you needed a shorter rate than the fuzes you had available, you
cut the fuse shorter.
#-- 
#"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
#Though all the world betrays thee.
#One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
#One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas Moore)
#


-- 
Dave Uebele	uunet!sco!daveu  or daveu@sco.com
From: miles@ms.uky.edu (Stephen D. Grant)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: AR-15 in 7.62X39
Date: 21 Aug 92 03:36:15 GMT
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences

hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath) writes:

#Saw this a week ago at B&B Sales:  A Gilbert USAS.  It's a magazine/drum
#fed semi-auto 12 gauge shotgun.  I suspect it's a civilian legal version
#of a military full-auto (Atchison?  A full-auto 12 ga?  The mind boggles).
#It looks like an M16 on steroids (and weighs more than I'd like to carry
#any great distance).  Any sane attacker would turn tail at the sight of
#it.
#The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com)

 I saw one of the full-auto versions shot at Knob Creek a while back. It was
sick. :)
From: erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: The New Colt AR15s
Date: 18 Aug 92 21:37:24 GMT


Cliff Anderson writes:
#Has anyone out there heard about the new Colt AR15 rifles in 7.62 by 39 cal.
#This sounds like a good idea from the folks at Colt.  You know!!
#Cutting in on the SKS market.  Well I'm sure it cost alot more.


Colt doesn't make AR15s anymore, as they are evil etc etc etc assault weapons.
They now make Sporters, which look suspiciously similar :)

It's not likely that the 7.62x39 Sporter will be competing with the SKS,
but then not much can compete with a $100 rifle. More likely Colt is
targeting prospective purchasers of Ruger Mini-30s.

Considering Ruger's recent staunch support of gun rights ( :-( ) it should
do well.



Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
Protect the Second Amendment - boycott Ruger products
"That's not true," Bill hissed to his lawyer. "The facts are-"
"Don't worry about facts, Bill, no one else here does. Facts can't
alter this case."       -"Bill the Galactic Hero" Harry Harrison
From: megatek!cjp@uunet.UU.NET (Chris "Systems Stud" Pikus)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Travelling help
Date: 20 Aug 92 13:07:30 GMT
Organization: Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California

#From article <lairdb.714255004@crash>, by lairdb@crash.cts.com:
# In <1992Aug19.022135.16461@ttinews.tti.com> hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath) writes:
# 
# [wrt Kalifornia]
# #                                                               Remember
# #that loaded magazine == loaded gun (in fact, live ammunition touching any
# #part of a gun, including the magazine, is legally the same as a loaded
# #gun).
# 
# Incidenatlly, this has come up before.  I got curious, and talked 
# (informally) to several people about it, all of whom "had never heard
# such a ridiculous interpretation" (roughly the words of a local ADA.)
# He pointed out what I had thought, that the wording of the PC section
# in question is most sensibly read to say that if the magazine is out
# of the firearm, then it's not loaded.
# 
# Not to say that a rabid, conviction-hungry prosecutor couldn't read it
# any way he wanted to, but does anyone have a cite?
# 
# -- 
# Laird P. Broadfield     lairdb@crash.cts.com    ...{ucsd, nosc}!crash!lairdb
# Hi!  I'm a shareware signature!  Send $5 if you use me, send $10 for manual!

	Here it is in black and white [or green and black for you crt guys].

   California Penal code:

   Section 12031(g):
     (g)  A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes
          of this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or
          shell, consisting of a case which holds a charge of power
          and a bullet or shot, in, or attached in any manner to,
          the firearm, including, but not limited to, in the firing
          chamber, magazine, or clip thereof attached to the fire-
          arm; except that a muzzle-loader firearm shall be deemed
          to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder
          charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.


-- 
Christopher J. Pikus,        | "Forgive me for not knowing about El Salvador. 
Megatek Corp., San Diego, CA | Like it's not like I'm ever going to go to Spain
INTERNET: cjp@megatek.com    | or anything."	  -- "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"
From: med.unc.edu!rslugg@concert.net (Robert Slugg)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Top Man Stoppers???
Date: 15 Aug 92 02:47:47 GMT
Organization: UNC-CH School of Medicine

t a Baltimore, MD gun show one dealer had all sorts of specialty shotgun
ammo, including the bolo-wire round.  They also had one called the
door-buster or somesuch which was a 7/8 oz prefractured deer slug sitting
on top of 6 pellets of 00 buck.  The load information for the latter is in
the ballistic products buckshot and deer slug data book.  We are always
cautioned about using factory ammo and not handloads for self defense, so
my question is what constitutes factory ammo.  Is it the size of the
company, the purpose of the ammo, new components throughout, or can my
friend supply with reloads that he calls factory ammo, such as the stuff I
reluctantly have to buy at some indoor ranges?   Just looking for more
things to do with my new grabber.

Bob
From: jab0684@usl.edu (Boudreaux Jean A)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Great HBAR load
Date: 20 Aug 92 21:40:56 GMT


My friend Sgt. George Rusho(formerly 101st airborne LRSD, 2-17Cav), has
a great HBAR load that he wants to pass along to the net.
Using this load he has consistently obtained sub moa groups, often under
1/2 inch!, and smaller than a dime.

caliber: 5.56X45
primer: CCI
powder: BLC-2
charge: 26.0 grains
bullet: Hornady 55 grain Jacketed Soft Point

Good luck!
Feel free to mail me or post your results, or if you have any additional questions about the load.

Jean Boudreaux
jab0684@usl.edu
Amateur Radio : KB5UDF
From: dpike@OAVAX.CSUCHICO.EDU (DAN PIKE)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Differance between .40 and 10mm
Date: 20 Aug 92 01:02:40 GMT
Organization: California State University, Chico

I was talking to a friend the other day here at work who claims he owns a lot
of guns.  During our conversation he said that .40cal and 10MM are the same
thing.  I'm not the most knowledgeable person on the subject, but I think he's
wrong.  I know there has to be a differance.  Don't they fire differant rounds? 
He says you can fire the same round through both.  I don't thinks he's too
reliable of a source but I just wanted to know what the differances are from
someone who knows what he/she is talking about.  I know he's not the best
source because he told me he has an M-16.  Having been in the army I started
asking him questions about it.  He finally admitted he has a Colt AR-15.  Any
help that you could give would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks in advance.

Dan
**********************************************************
DAN PIKE, CALIFORNIA STATE UNIVERSITY, CHICO
DPIKE@OAVAX.CSUCHICO.EDU