From: hinson@bohr.physics.purdue.edu (Jason W. Hinson)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.tech
Subject: Re: Not the Technical Manual
Date: 17 Nov 92 01:15:14 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Physics Department

CXMP@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA (CXMP) writes:
<2) WARP SPEED
<
<The following warp formula was given by Greg Berigan: for a given warp
<factor W,
<                   speed = W^(10/3)+(10-W)^(-11/3)
<
<in units of the speed of light.  This is an imperical fit to the curve
<given in the ST:TNG Technical Manual.  As Jason Hinson recently pointed
<out, the curve given in the Technical Manual is canonical because in
<"The Most Toys" Wesley gave a distance, time and warp factor consistant
<with it.  The following section on distances also lends credence to this
<formula.  (TOS warp went by a W^3 formula.)

As I also pointed out, the equation above does not match warps above
9 that are givein in the writers manual.

<6) CAUSALITY VIOLATION
<
<Jason Hinson regularly sermonizes on the net about the fact that faster
<than light travel normally causes causality violation.  Causality is the
<postulate that causes always preceed effects. If causality were violated
<then events could occur spontaneously with their cause revealed only
<after the fact. The possibility of causality violation would, of course,
<make it difficult for one to predict future events.  That faster than
<light travel can bring about causality violation is, of course, not
<immediately obvious until one does a mental experiment analogous to the
<one Einstein did with trains and lightening.
<

(Stuff deleted)

<Jason Hinson points out, however, that if faster than light travel were
<made possible by a special frame of reference then this causality
<violation is avoided because the concepts of simultaneity and
<instantaneity could be defined with respect to this special frame.

(Stuff deleted)

<
<Unfortunately, or fortunately depending upon your point of view,
<causality is also violated when one travels backward in time since
<one's arrival in the past is not something that can be predicted.  In
<addition to the time travel accomplished by the Enterprise via the
<Slingshot Effect and by "cold starting the warp drive" (TOS:"The Naked
<Time"), the original series allowed for time travel in "The City on the
<Edge of Forever", "The Alternative Factor" and "All our Yesterdays".
<The Next Generation, meanwhile, had "time vortices" in "Time Squared"
<and "Yesterday's Enterprise" and time travellers in "Captain's Holiday",
<"A Matter of Time" and "Time's Arrow".  It is not clear, therefore, that
<faster than light travel on Star Trek need be such that causality
<violation is avoided.  Let us then try to allow for faster than light
<travel in such a way that preserves special relativity alone and thus
<allowing for causality violation.


You KNEW I would respond to this. 
First,  I do have a problem with many time travel stories in Star Trek.
No one seems to realize the impact that changing one single thing in 
time can have on future events.  Star Trek always comes out with some 
way of handling it, such as Samual leaving his watch where he knew it
would be found.  But he HAD to do that, so he didn't have free will.  
But time travel is another discussion all together.

As far as violating causality through FTL travel, I beleive I have a good
argument as to why it is not done in ST technology.  If it were, we would
see its effects all the time!  You get a distress call from a planet. You
are running out of time to get there.  All you have to do is get in the
right frame of reference out of warp, then enter warp, and you can get there
any amount of time after the destress signal was sent or even before it
was sent.  We do NOT see this at all.  This is why I don't think the idea
you mentioned about keeping the same F.O.R. you have before you enter warp
is correct.

Finally, you seem to have a problem with me wanting a "special" frame of
reference as if it violates special relativity all together.  It doesn't
quite do this.  You see, EVERYTHING has its own frame of reference, right.
Now all we have to have is a special field that has a particular frame 
of reference (just like everything else has a particular FOR).  This field
would then be warped to create a special space in which relativity no
longer applies.  Anything in that space would have the same FOR (with 
respect to things in our universe) as the field does.  This field would
have to be the only one of its kind (ie. the only one that could be used
to cause FTL travel).  The field's frame ONLY becomes special when you 
warp the field and enter the fictitious Space in which SR does not apply.

The idea that you support in which every traveler keeps the FOR they enter
warp with also has its problems with relativity.  After all, with it the
traveler could do whatever he wants in Warp, and he would still have the
same FOR.  While in addition, that idea also allows for easy to use and 
hand to avoid causality violations which we don't see on the show.



Well, you gave your "my way is better" speech, so I gave mine.
 
-Jay


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