From: SG.MML@isumvs.iastate.edu (M. Loughin)
Subject: Re: joint post on discrimination, long!
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 22:20:15 GMT

In article <122420107@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM>,
daq@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Doug Quarnstrom) writes:
>In alt.callahans, SG.MML@isumvs.iastate.edu (M. Loughin) writes:
>
>daq@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Doug Quarnstrom) writes:
>>In alt.callahans, turner@reed.edu (another face in the mirror) writes:

[deleted stuff]

>>Is this a generalization?  I did not say, nor mean to imply, that
>>even a majority of men act this way.  In fact, I said "many men."
>>I have been playing volleyball for 5 years in two different states,
>>in three different leagues, and I see it over and over.  In cases
>>where I have heard such men asked why they behaved this way, they
>>reply something to the effect that "she wasn't going to get it."
>>Or they get defensive.  They often repeat the behavior after someone
>>has taken them to task -- they just don't believe the woman can
>>play.  They *will* learn after either strong words from the
>>woman (see bellow) or if a fellow male on the team has a chat
>>with him.  Personally, I am more likely to give a dirty look
>>the first time, make a small comment/suggestion the second time, and
>>shove him out of the way the third time.
>
>Ah, you know, I read that paragraph a couple time and saw the first
>reference and missed the second.  You did in FACT say many, and
>my selective vision missed it.  Yes, I agree, this reverses my
>conclusion, because I grant that many men do this.

Okay, there's no argument -- just a misunderstanding.

>>Also, give me a little credit for powers of observation.  I don't
>>jump to the conclusion on the first violation.  I look to see if
>>it's repeated agains the men on the team.  Also, these are
>>frequently *good* volleyball players, who know how the game works
>>and know what their responsibilities are.  Consistent violations
>>in these cases are *not* due to type-A lack of control.
>
>Well, I would disagree.  I think they are a consequence of type A
>behavior.  This kind of agressive assumption of greater confidence
>is a funcion of naturally agressive people who also have little
>past experience in sensitivity.

>>>In fact he might if he is the type of person you are suggesting and
>>>if the man he would be pushing fits certain physical stereotypes.
>>>You are using examples of pushy, type A people to generalize about
>>>all men.

Hmmm, yes it is a type-A behavior.  It's an interactive effect of
type-A behavior and the belief that a woman must be an inferior
volley ball player.

>I will back off of that assertion, but I will reiterate the
>rhetorical suggestion that I made to this quote that
>deliberate and damaging violence is unacceptable and not
>terribly wise.

Agreed -- unless said in a *humorous* light in order to point
out a problem without getting visibly angry.  Is that okay?
They reply can be humorous, too, as long as the point is taken.

>>  Or is it possible that this is a behavior
>>of some men towards women when they participate in co-rec sports.
>>Is it possible that you do not notice it because it doesn't
>>effect you?
>
>No, this is not at all possible.  I notice the behavior myself.
>I was objecting to what I thought was a suggestion that this
>behavior is universal.  I'll give you another little clue
>and confession.  I have done this myself in the past, I work
>to avoid it, and if I was aware that this action really
>bothered someone I would feel really bad about it.  Even
>big bad men are capable of feeling bad about behaving badly.

I guess I didn't mean effect in that sense.  I meant that it is
not "in your face", effecting how you play the game.  If you
notice the behavior,however, your feelings might be effected.

>>Doug, when(if) you play volleyball, you probably behave yourself.
>
>No, Marie, let me indict myself.  Many times when I am
>playing volleyball I do want to do well, and if I percieve that
>someone is not pulling their weight, I will try to cover for them.

The difference is (hopefully) that you first bothered to evaluate
the skill of the other player.  Even so, unless you are playing
a very high level of volley ball (in which case there would be no
bad players :->), it is best not to elbow others out the way of
*their* play.  You *can* be there to help them if they miss or
don't bump/set it well. It's important to be realistic without
stepping on someone.

>It has little to do with sex, however, since I recognize that
>there are a HELL of a lot of women who are vastly superior
>to me athletically.  But I cannot deny a certain tendency
>to assume that the average woman will not be as good as me.
>I am guilty as charged.  But I am capable of understanding
>unacceptable behavior, and despite my type A, even if a
>PERSON really IS missing a lot of plays, I will merely let
>it go.

Assuming the woman is not as good is dangerous in volleyball.
After all, women's varsity volleyball is at most high schools and
colleges, but there is very little men's volleyball.  The assumption
might be better in ice-hockey or football, since there are very
few women who play those sports.  (I freely admit that most men
are stronger than most women, but agility and athleticism is
evenly distributed).

>>  Afterall, it doesn't effect you.
>
>No.  This is ABSOLUTELY FALSE!  IT DOES AFFECT ME!   Why?
>It affects me because I see it happen, and I can figure out
>how the recipient feels, and even though I am just a cave
>man, I have the ability to emote.  I am aware of it and it
>bothers me.

Point taken.

>>Almost every woman I have played volleyball with has had this
>>complaint.  (I would say "every woman" with some confidence, but
>>I haven't talked to all of them about it.)
>
>And every undersized male that went through PE in high school
>has experienced it as well.

This is true.  In fact, I am willing to admit that in *some*
cases, the man is reacting the way he does because he is taller.
Especially in the front row.  I play with a guy who is 6'8", and
he'll trample me when we are playing in the front row together, but
he defers to me when we are in the back row.  I, too, prefer to let
the 6'8" guy slam the ball onto the ground, so I let it pass.  I
know where his reaction is coming from.

>>They can't all be sexist, like me, can they ;-)?
>
>Depends on what conclusions they draw.  I admit that in this situation
>in your case, I made a mistake.

:-)  :-)  :-)

>doug

Have a hug, Doug.  (Doesn't that have a nice ring?)
--Marie
Newsgroups: alt.callahans