From: osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Time to Fight
Date: 31 Aug 92 17:27:47 GMT
Organization: Twilight Zone

In article <viking.715152991@vincent2.iastate.edu> viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:
>osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X) writes:
>>> viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:
>>>osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X) writes:
>>>
>>>>	If someone in a mask, or a police uniform for that matter, busts into 
>>>>	my house, they will probably not leave the premises vertically.
>>>
>>>	Is that because you don't think they can arrest you in your house,
>>>or just that you think anybody busting into your house needs to be shot as
>>>a matter of course?  Really, this seem too rigid a theory, especially given
>>>that death is not reversable.
>
>NOTE: I seem to have not parsed that "probably" in his last sentence as he
>was intending I do.  Thus, I withdraw the point -- he allows some lattitude.

	So noted.

>
>	So what does it take to make you feel warm and fuzzy?  That uniform

	How about a bull horn announcement saying soemthing to the effect
	"we have you surrounded, come out with your hands up"?  The "he'll
	flush the evidence down the shitter" argument for no knock raids is
	about as bogus as bogus can get.  PDs make buys from suspected dealers.
	They usually make msny buys over a period of weeks or even months so
	they can establish an unmistakable pattern and gather lots of physical
	evidence.  If they need large amounts of dope, then let them use all 
	the civil forfeiture monies they get to buy the quantities needed.

	If Johhny Dealer flushes a pound or two of shit down the toilet, who
	cares.  Johnny Dealer can be nicked in many ways that do not violate
	the rights of honest citizens.  Grab him when in a public place if you
	think he is so desperate that he will kill his own kids to avoid
	capture.  With a little imagination and PATIENCE (something which is
	apparently sorely lacking in many (most?) PDs) thieves can be easily
	apprehended.  They are, after all, at the disadvantage.

	The fact is that I do not know who it is coming through my door.  I
	may wait long enough to fond out, but then I may not.  My next door
	neighbor was robbed this past Friday.  Whoever it was may be back to 
	hit the rest of us (we're only 5 houses on a little 1 lane country
	road that is very hidden from the rest of the world.).  So here I am
	asleep when I hear noises fo persons runnign aroung my house.  My
	neighbor has just been robbed.  It is not inconcievable that those who
	did the robbery have come to hit my house.  What do I do?  I get my
	shotgun, fill 'er up w/ OOO buck and wait in the dark to see what, if
	anything happens.  Someone comes through the door and so sorry, but
	chances are I'm gonna let loose with a pair of 3" magnum loads with
	 a .45 as back up.  Thank you and good night.  Are they cops or are 
	they the robbers?  I'm not clairvoyant, so sorry to say, and so I will
	take whatever actions I deem necessary to preserve my life and well
	being, not to mention that of the other family members (all cats BTW).


	Now if the local cops come and surround my house in an overt manner 
	such that all my neighbors can clearly see what's going on and they 
	tell me to come out, etc., then I can see for myself that I probably
	have the legitimate article there and will come out and see what's
	going on.  There will be no violence.  Whatever the misunderstanding is
	will hopefully be cleared up and we will all go on with our lives
	rather than having one or more persons shot and perhaps killed.

>is a form of identification, though I've heard of rulings that limit the kind
>of action they can expect from citizens due to spotting the uniform.  What
>will you do?  Remember, if they've just busted in they're carrying and ready
>to fire.  You probably aren't.  

	Well, if I suddenly find myself on the wrong end of several guns, i.e.
	I am caught unawares,t hen I have not a wole lot of choice but to
	cool out and see what's up.  But if I see or hear activity going on 
	outside that should not be going on, I will arm myself and prepare to
	let someone have it if such an unfortunate need arises.

>If it's worth a break-in by police, they
>most likely have evidence that you're a serious threat to somebody, and must
>be stopped immediately (I assume the intel people actually do their job).

	Whoa there!  Do you not remember the old geezer that someone wrote 
	about a few weeks ago?  Saw a bunch of persons in masks running around
	his house late at night?  Got his shotgun and, what, KILLED 5 officers?
	Good for him.  He acted quite properly under the circumstances.  Sorry
	to the families of the downed cops, but someone did not do their jobs
	right.  I wonder who will be held accountable for these losses?  
	Probably nobody, which will of course leave the same PD fully able and
	perhaps even likely to make similar mistakes in the future.  Sad.
	
>>	They [the police tactics] work great for situations where
>>	the objective is to go in and kill the enemy, but not for arresting
>>	people.  You might do well to study a bit more about this before you
>>	go labeling me as some sort of violence mongering shoot-em-up
>>	madman.  You apparently do not know of what you speak.
>
>	I don't think of you that way.  On the other hand, you note nothing
>on how you would identify your targets, what it would take to make you hold
>fire, or even what actions you would take other than giving them what for.

	Like I said, if they behave properly and not like a bunch of soldiers
	fighting in a war, then people are MUCH less likely to get killed.
	What if a crook busted my door down?  Would you not say i'd be pert
	near justified in shooting?  I can't tell who's real and who ain't in
	a tenth of a second, and so sometimes a person must simply ACT.  When
	the prima fascia aspect of a situation says "LIFE OR DEATH" and things
	are hapening quickly, a person is well justified in shooting.  Why
	should anyone risk death for the sake of some cops who feel they must
	do the Rambo thing?  That's simply insane.
	

>Perhaps this is because police
>are just as concerned with their own lives as you are of yours?  

	In that case they shold use proper tactics instead of the bullshit
	tactic that get innocent people killed.

>If nobody
>opens fire, nobody is hurt and things proceed.  

	Come on Dan, gimme a break here.  You know damned well that things are
	never that simple.  In principle you are right, but the real world 
	fact is that this is by no menas guaranteed to be the case, and when
	the cops exacerbate an already potentially tough situation by acting
	like mad idiots, what can you expect but for someone to try to defend
	themselves?  No one in their right mind is going to roll over for the
	kill at the hands of strangers, except for Mennonites.

>If somebody does, you can
>be assurred that you will not be the one leaving vertically.  Naturally, you

	Tell that to the old geezer in Texas (?).  He walked out just fine,
	and no charges either (which I find almost unbelievable).

>The no-knock may or may not have been warranted, but
>if we assume it was, look at what happens.  


	No knocks are NEVER justified.
>
>	Given that you were going to take on these intruders, and given
>that you never miss, I'd say your confidence in your skill is admirable but
>misplaced.  "I've nine shots, there's eight of them, no problems!"  If you
>miss twice with your one-shot-stop shots, you're in trouble.  I know, I know,
>"I carry two magazines."  That makes it a bit more likely you'll take out

	Of 15 rounds EACH :)=).  And then there's the .45 with another 15 
	rounds at hand.  Could do a LOT of damage if need came to that.

>
>	You've not said a thing about any of these options, and really
>sound more like you think there's only surrender and fight to the end.
>There are other means.  Burgulars can keep whatever they can cart away
>while April and I are holed up.  It can be replaced.  She and I can't.

	*IF* I feel I can vacate the premises with all family members (that
	includes my cats) in safety, I will do so.  If I can find a place to 
	hide where I can properly defend myself, fine.  If I cannot, I will 
	stand and fight like the maddest devil on earth if it comes to that.
	I'm not looking to get killed or to harm anyone, but I am also not
	willing to just sit by and have someone kill me.

	-Andy V.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns,alt.society.civil-disob