From: NETOPRWA@ncsuvm.cc.ncsu.edu (Wayne Aiken)
Subject: Re: frustrations with christianity
Organization: North Carolina State University
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 05:36:36 GMT

In article <3352.2B30C963@catpe.alt.za>
Steve.Hayes@p0.f20.n7101.z5.fidonet.org (Steve Hayes) writes:
>
> WA> .........such implicit offense and launch into incredible direct
> WA> attacks on atheists.  People need to get used to the idea that displays
> WA> of religious faith are far from neutral.
>
>Perhaps, but have you ever considered that others might find your beliefs offensive?
Absolutely.
 
>
>Of course we could be talking at cross-purposes here. Let me say that I think
>that people should be allowed to believe what they like and propagate their
>beliefs provided they do not harm others. Now I freely admit that there are
>some problems here. Racism, for example.
 
I don't see a problem- in the sense that I would extend freedom of speech even
to racists, Nazis, etc.  That doesn't mean I agree with it, but that speech,
no matter how wrong or offensive, is clearly a separate matter from actions,
and that the only appropriate action toward bad speech is better speech.
When people propogate beliefs which some consider wrong or offensive, others
always have the option to speak out themselves.
 
>But I'm still not quite clear what you have in mind. Are you thinking of
>stickers saying that "Atheists are scum" or something of the like? If
>so, I would agree with you that they are offensive. But it seems to me
>more like you are saying that anyone whose views do not coincide with yours
>is offensive. Now THAT I would find offensive.
 
Well, no, not just anyone with differing views, but definitely certain views.
Racism, for example, is something that I and most people find offensive.  So,
those who vocally advocate such positions can expect opposition.
 
>                                                  If you think that people
>who disagree with you are misguided, deluded, stupid, ignorant, misinformed
>incorrect or wrong, that's fine. But if you are offended and feel insulted
>by their beliefs and feel the need to insult them personally, then I
>think that's pretty authoritarian. So you suppress any expression of any
>belief that differs from yours. And how long before someone stronger than
>you comes along and decides to suppress your freedom to express your beliefs
>because they find them offensive.
 
Nope- nothing can become "authoritarian" until there is some real action
to suppress speech.  I intend nothing of the sort, and I am very much opposed
to many of the things done in the name of "political correctness".  As long
as there is no coercion -and hurt feelings don't count- then such exchanges
are free speech at its finest.  Criticism != suppression.
 
>Live and let live.
 
But then again, sometimes, as the gays say, "Silence = Death"
 
> WA> thats their problem.  Note that none of these examples are as personal
> WA> as, for example, "Protestants are funny".  Instead, I would prefer to
> WA> make a statement about protestantism as such; its similar to a "hate
> WA> the sin but lover the sinner" approach, although I think everyone has a
> WA> borderline where the two become indistinguishable.
>
>But it seems that that is just what you are doing - taking *personal*
>offence at other peoples' expressions of their beliefs. If they were
>attacking your beliefs, it would be a different matter, but are they?
 
Although I would seriously question someone's religious beliefs, sometimes
aggressively, I would never likewise question their patriotism, love for
their family, or whether or not they are good people, based solely on
those beliefs.  On the other hand, I've heard some pretty outrageous things
said about atheists using precisely their lack of religious belief, in order
to make them seem like ogres on above issues.  What I hope to accomplish is
not so much to piss people off, but to make them think a bit more about what
they believe and express in public.  The doctrines of the real hard-core
fundamentalist types are precisely direct attacks on unbelief; the more
"liberal" churches are much better, but to an outsider, its merely different
degrees of the same thing.  Some beliefs are by their very nature antagonistic
toward other dissimilar beliefs.
 
Yeah, a fair amount of people will get pissed, but just maybe some of them
will bother to think: "what is it about my beliefs that makes some people
feel this way?"
 
Wayne Aiken                                            "You can BE what
PO Box 30904            slack@ncsu.edu                  you WON'T!!"
Raleigh, NC  27622                                       --"Bob"
(919) 782-8171          StarFleet BBS: (919) 782-3095
Newsgroups: alt.atheism