From: dci@cs.washington.edu (Donald Chinn)
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
Subject: Re: The Star of Indiana, HATE
Keywords: The Star of Indiana, why do they hate them?
Date: 20 Aug 92 06:24:10 GMT
Organization: Computer Science & Engineering, U. of Washington, Seattle

In article <1992Aug19.162644.187@aimla.com> chris@optimla.aimla.com (Chris Angelli) writes:
>
>In article <1992Aug18.185848.8020@beaver.cs.washington.edu> you write:
>>In article <1992Aug18.161926.5924@midway.uchicago.edu> xklh@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>
>.... bunch of stuff deleted here....

[I said the stuff in >> ...]

>>
>>This is a situation where the idea of drum corps as a youth activity
>>and drum corps as a music education medium comes into conflict.  At the
>>top levels, drum corps have to be extremely selective, which means not
>>only do they have to be able to play an instrument or spin a flag well,
>>they even have to have a uniform look for the right visual effect.
>>
>>This may sound a bit racist, but I find it hard to believe that a white
>>person could make it big as a rapper.  I'll believe it, however, when I
>>see it.  This is where the "look" can make a difference in the final
>>product.  Maybe in drum corps, the "look" is not or should not be that
>>important.  But the staff and management has made that decision, and you
>>can disagree with it (I personally do not like the idea of selection
>>based on weight/height).  But to HATE them for it?
>>
>
>.... blah blah blah....
>
>
>OK, I've never seen Star, I am completely ignorant about how good/bad/ugly
>they are.  I have been out of the activity for 10 years, so I don't know
>what the current judging criteria are.  So how can I possibly have anything
>intelligent to add to this discussion?  Well it really bothers me (I mean
>hair-standing-up-on-the-back-of-my-neck-type bothers me) to hear phrases
>like "have to have a uniform look for the right visual effect".  Am I the
>only one that is reminded of Hitlers Aryan ideal?  I mean, maybe I'm over-
>reacting here, but I find it hard to believe that a judge would say "Hey,
>that snare line's really tight, but that guy (or girl) in the middle is
>just too tall (or short or fat or skinny or dark-skinned or light-skinned or
>what have you) and it takes away from the effect."  COME ON.  Now I realize
>that this is not a utopian world here and that people are not always nice
>and accepting of diversity.  But to actively promote prejudice is something 
>I find reprehensible and, yes, HATEFUL.  
>
>Also I don't understand what you mean by the conflict between drum corps as
>a youth activity and drum corps as a music education medium.  What conflict?
>Are those two things mutually exclusive?  If a person is excluded from a 
>top corps due to lack of ability, that's one thing.  If a person is excluded
>due to some physical characteristic over which they have no control that's an 
>entirely different matter. 
>
>Sorry for the diatribe.  You just struck a chord in me... (OK, so I'm a little
>short!)
>

Let me try to explain what I originally posted, since there do seem to be
some unclear points.  First, I have no idea what the judges think.  In
fact, I don't think it matters for the purposes of this discussion.  If
I were on the creative staff of a corps, and I wanted to put out the best
possible product, then I would not only want to get players who can
play/stick/spin/etc., but also a group of people who give the right "look"
to the corps (sort of like how some universities accept a "freshman class",
which would consist of a diversity of people, not just 4.0+ GPA people).

Examples of where I would want to be selective (what you refer to as
"prejudice", which, to me, is a loaded word, because it suggests that
fatness is the first criteria for acceptance) about the "look" of various
parts of the corps:
1. Having an all-female guard or half and half guard or all-male guard
2. the "look" of soloists who might be portraying characters in some
   story I might be trying to tell
3. the demeanor of the drum major (which might include their "look")

This idea of performance and being selective about who to take on as
members is in conflict with the idea of drum corps as a youth activity
(because presumably in a youth activity, everyone, regardless of playing
ability, looks, or anything else, is allowed to participate -- sort of
like little league rules).

Now, a different question is whether I agree with this idea of what
I would do if I were running the corps.  I would not put fatness very
high on my list of acceptance criteria (I suspect Star's staff doesn't
either).  On the other hand, if given the choice between two otherwise
equally good candidates (I wonder how many people try to get into Star each
year), I probably would not choose the fat one if only for the "look"
criterion.  Of course, this is purely hypothetical, since there will almost
always be differences in playing ability, attitude, etc.

So to me, it depends on what my priorities as a corps are if I were running
the show.  If I wanted to present the best possible product to the paying
public, I'd try to get the ones who play and look the best.  If I were a
local neighborhood corps, I'd probably take on anyone, regardless of playing
abilities or looks.  And then there is a whole continuum in between.

Is either view what drum corps "is about" (Krista claimed that the former
was not)?  I think both are equally valid views of drum corps, and luckily
both versions of that kind of drum corps exist.  You (and I) may personally
not run a drum corps that way, but I am willing to acknowledge that this is
the path Star wants to take.  I don't hate Star for this choice.  There
are plenty of corps that will take talented people who happen to be fat.
The parallels to school admissions (both undergrad and graduate) are many.

A more striking example of "discrimination" is the Division III champs this
year, the Mandarins.  They are all Asian (I think they are all Chinese,
but they may have expanded to all Asians; they originally were a Chinese
community organization, but they may have changed a bit).  It seems that
if Star's policies make your hair stand on end, then the Mandarins would
really make them stick out (and Madison, Cavies, Ventures, ...).  The
Mandarins have a focus and purpose, and they seek members to achieve that
purpose.  I'm not convinced (yet) that Star places fatness at the top of the
list of corps priorities, even though Krista's post seemed to suggest so.

-- Donald
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps