From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Subject: Re: On Banning Private Discrimination
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 22:50:19 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.211216.23641@gordian.com> mike@gordian.com (Michael A. Thomas) writes:
>  This contradicts what Roger said before which is that once you open
>your doors you must do business with anybody for any reason at the sole 
>discretion of the *buyer*. Your comment about that a company should not
>be able to discriminate toward the military (as in not wanting to sell
>to them) seems to imply that you support Rogers position which is the
>kernel of this thread. 

Well, I wouldn't think much of it.  On the other hand, the "military"
isn't an individual with rights.

>  Which is it Steve, are you a private individual when you hang your
>shingle out or are you a business? Are businesses owners not allowed 
>to have a conscience about whom they provide their wares to or not?

I'm a private individual in my capacity here.

I think it's pretty funny that you use the word conscience here.
The problem isn't those who have 'em, it's those without 'em.

>  If a business sells chemicals which could be dangerous in the wrong
>hands and deranged person came in the door should the business be 
>_required_ to sell it anyway? Or should he wait for some tragedy to
>happen and *hope* that there is some legislation which allows him
>to legally discriminate?

When a product could be misused to the detriment of the buyer or an
innocent bystander, I support the right of a vendor to use her
discretion and judgement in making a decision as to whether to make a
sale.  And, in this sense, to get back to your example above, selling
material to the military _might_ come under that rubric in certain
people's eyes (pacifists).  In many cases, where the harm is explicit,
such as in the dispensing of drugs, poisons, and pesticides, this is
embodied by the law.  In cases like gun shops, such essential discretion
is all too frequently lacking.

In all of these examples, the "discrimination" is based on the potential
for harm or misuse, and not on some irrelevant characteristic such as
race, religion, veteran status, etc.

>  Where does this end?  Is there some sort of guideline which we could
>follow when making these sorts of proscriptions or is it essentially
>arbitrary and dependent on the whim of the moment? If there is I'd
>be glad to hear it.

Yeah, it's called intelligence.

>  This is where the quagmire of forced association leads. Under such 
>a bizantine legal framework there is no way a reasonable business person
>could determine what discrimination is and what it is not, thus making
>a mockery of the entire problem. We seemingly cannot even agree upon what
>a *business* is.

"Therefore I support the right of businesses to arbitrarily discriminate
based on irrelevant criteria."

Turning the issue into a straw-man cartoon does not make the problem
(unjust discrimination) go away.

>> >  Who else but the goverment is allowed to do the "forcing". They
>> >make the rules, albeit at the majorities supposed behest. Majoritism
>> >is hardly an optimal state as I'm sure you can realize. 
>> My problem with arguments like this is that they're used to justify
>> racist and discriminatory behavior.  Why indeed can't I decide not
>> to sell my software to Jews/blacks/gays/etc?  Ick.
>  Unquestionably some do. People use freedom of speach to justify saying
>hateful things as well. Shall we restrict that as well? Allowing people
>freedom is not tantamount to supporting any abuse that can come from
>that freedom. The other side of the coin is the forced censorship of
>the state -- which is better?

I'm all for court decisions which refine this notion.  Techno-geek
net libertarians who can only envision society as a set of logical
proposition without any ambiguity or conflicts, and who wouldn't know
a legal precedent if it fell on their foot seem to forget that this
has been in process for the past 40 years or so, and much to the
betterment of society, IMHO.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
Newsgroups: soc.motss