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Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 16:45:00 EST
From:         BECKY RICKLY <00RJRICKLY@BSUVAX1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: EnfiLOG Addendum

Trent,

Here's my addendum--I guess I didn't read closely enough.

Snail mail:

        Becky Rickly
        Dept. of English
        Ball State University
        Muncie, IN  47306
        (317) 285-8386

Email:

        00rjrickly@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu

I hope that's all you need.

Becky
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Date:         Mon, 31 Aug 1992 00:13:13 -0700
From:         allen@SONOMA.EDU
Subject:      Jim McDonald

Jim--

     You are absolutely right, of course, about the sorts of texts thaat
 rhetoricians
and our students should be paying ttention to.  However, my response at the
 moment
is just that I'm pleased to see you online.  This means that you re probbly not
homeless and that you hve electricity.
The ongoing televised hurricane texts had me worried about you, given your
 location
in southern Louisiana.  AAm very glad that the house of McDonld did not
 deconstruct
itself.

Julie
allen@sonoma.edu
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Date:         Thu, 3 Sep 1992 05:11:45 HST
From:         James Shimabukuro <JAMESS@UHUNIX.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: (Fwd: *C&CD*) Transferring real life to Lit classes (7)

Myles, I left the reality of our discussions, walked into my 8 o'clock, and
completely forgot about their reality.  I have a Tues-Thurs 8 o'clock, too.
I'll ask today.
Jim
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 22:37:49 -0400
From:         irwin@CARR.YORKU.CA
Subject:      measuring change

Dickie: Yes, .ca stands for Canada (I'm in Toronto).  .com here means
a commercial site too, but I don't think they differentiate what
country, but I've only seen a few sites (like NeXT.COM).

Re: multiple paths, etc.  What I had in mind was the nine positions
that Perry outlined in his book that start in dualism, then
multiplism/subjectivity, then relativism, to commitment in relativism.
These are ways of constructing knowledge, and a stage theory approach
might see students as working through the nine positions in
succession.  A non-stage theory might see students as going through
these positions, but at different levels for different domains
(however defined).  Students aren't at a level, but only with respect
to a learning domain.  A real non-stage approach might see the whole
thing as a lot more chaotic than that.  By "stage" I have in mind
something like the Piagetian view of structure, which evolves in an
orderly fashion, in a predictable manner.

And yes, I think there are real advantages to staying with some of the
"limitations" of the medium; if the computers are simply connecting
people in realtime, providing video and audio, then you don't have the
same opportunity for reflection, analysis, or writing, for that
matter.

Wini: Chris Lovell's work was based on the LEP (Learning Environment
Preferences inventory), a paper and pencil test of Perry level.  Its a
scale similar to Rest's modification of the Kohlberg interview where
scores are based on subject's level of agreement with certain
pre-specified statements.  He found response patterns indicating that
women's responses were more "connected" (in Gilligan's sense) than
men's in that they had more non-standard or mixed type responses.
That's all I can pull out of memory for now.

						Ron

------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                        Snail Mail Address:
Ronald R. Irwin           		Graduate Program in Psychology
irwin@writer.yorku.ca			Behavioural Sciences Bldg., 306B,
(416) 250-7188           		York University,
Computer-Assisted Writing Centre	4700 Keele St., North York,
Department of Psychology		Ontario, Canada, M3J 1P3.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 19:51:41 CDT
From:         Wes Chapman <WESCHAP@UIUCVMD.BITNET>
Subject:      essential writing books

MBUer's (funny, that sounds even worse than megabunnies): I'm serving on
a committee one of whose tasks is to decide upon a very small library of
writing books to be placed in a number of places around campus where
students write or work on writing (the computer center, the study
lounges in the dorms, academic skills center, etc.).  If you had to
choose the half dozen or so most useful writing books for general
undergraduate use, what would they be?  (Assume that a good dictionary
and a handbook-rhetoric hybird is already included, unless there is a
particular one that you think is essential for some reason.) There are
no restrictions on content; they can be style manuals, process books,
books on the conventions of different disciplines, rhetorics, just something
inspiring, whatever.  Although students will be using these works on
their own, they don't _necessarily_ have to be particularly
self-explanatory; just good at what they do, whatever it is.  What have
you sent your students to, over the years?

For what it's worth, the student population here is generally young (18 to
25), middle class, relatively conservative, very Midwestern, good students
in the sense that they test well and care way too much about grades.

Please reply either to the list or directly to me, depending on how
interesting you think this discussion would be to the list as a whole.

Thank you,
Wes Chapman
Illinois Wesleyan University
weschap@uiucvmd.bitnet
weschap@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu
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Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 12:48:08 --500
From:         "David E. Schwalm" <IACDES@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: (Fwd: *C&CD*) Transferring r

 *** Reply to note of 09/02/92 07:38
 Students often don't understand, mainly because of a lack of experience, that
 *everything* is interesting. And I do mean *everything*. THey have to learn
 how to find the interesting angle, the special significance, the problems.

 -- David E. Schwalm, Assoc. Provost for Academic Programs
 ___Arizona State University West
 ___4701 West Thunderbird Rd.
 ___Phoenix, AZ 85069-7100___(602) 543-4500
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Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 12:56:00 EDT
From:         "Thomas Reber @ English Department" <REBER@CANISIUS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: expressivist angst

Fred, thanks for your comments about expressivists.  I actually heard
someone from Albany (a lit grad student, I think) give a workshop on
Daedalus at the writing and computers conf. in Ithaca last May.  She was
very enthusiastic about the program.

It really concerns me that some senior colleagues are so suspicious
of technology (or any other "new" form of instruction).  I do believe
that if some of them actually saw what one can do with programs like
Interchange and Descant, their suspicions might be allayed.  Perhaps
when we get our lab set up I can convince some of them to attend
a demonstration of some of the software we'll be using.

Meanwhile, it seems odd that colleagues who are not very informed
about computers seem to feel quite qualified to critique computer-
based/assisted instruction.  It would be nice if someone here
(in my dept.) were _excited_ about the prospects of such instruction
instead of fearful of it.  For now, I'm piggybacking on the work of
a colleague in the Communication Dept. who _is_ excited about these
prospects. I can't quite escape the feeling, though, that as far
as my dept. is concerned my efforts to use computers for teaching
writing are viewed as somewhat subversive.
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Date:         Thu, 3 Sep 1992 20:01:00 EDT
From:         "Composition Digest (Robert Royar,
              Moderator)" <R0MILL01@ULKYVX.BITNET>
Subject:      (Fwd: *C&CD*) Age and gnosis (708 chars) (1)

$undigest -s="Age and gnosis (708 chars) (1)" [.new_news]cmpd6255.mss

Date:          Thu, 03 Sep 1992 19:04:20 EDT
From:          IN%"RobertRoyar@Delphi.com" Dan Quigley (dquigley)
Message-Id:    <1992Sep03.190420.1.Grendel.Lair@Cratylus>
Subject:       Age and gnosis (708 chars) (1)
Organization:  Department of English, New York Institute of Technology
Local-Group:   composition.dig/1.c&c.replies #10
Reply-to:      "Computers and Composition Digest" <R0MILL01@ULKYVX.BITNET>

>I really know who they are.  I seem to be in tune with the older
>students who share my work ethic, but the younger ones?  My oldest
>daughter completed her BA last fall.  We get along fine, I think,
>and we seem to communicate.  But I wonder if we "really" know each
>other. I never thought I'd become part of the system, the over-
>thirty who've lost touch with the things that really matter.

I wonder if you feel you know your daughter now as well as four
years ago before she started college?  Wasn't it Twain who said
something like: "When I was 18, I couldn't believe how dumb my father.
was.  Once I turned 21, I was surprised by how much he had
learned in three years."

Quig

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Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1992 16:03:00 EDT
From:         "Thomas Reber @ English Department" <REBER@CANISIUS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: (Fwd: *C&CD*) Some classes where groups have worked (4)

Jim,

Perhaps Hirsch's program is "in part a way of justifying the study
of literature in an information age," but it seems that the infor-
maiton Hirsch wants people to know has a lot to do with establishing
a context--of facts, events, and values associated with them--which will
enable them to be better, wiser citizens.  There's a story Harry Truman
once told in a speech about an interesting survey someone conducted in
a town (I think it may have been in Wisconsin).  The residents of the
town were shown some excerpts of the "Manifesto of the Communist Party,"
which they identified as parts of the U.S. Constitution.  Interesting.

One of the words in the dictionary that is appended to _Cultural Literacy_
is "Puritans."  I was astounded this past spring that two students in
my "Short Fiction" courses said that Young Goodman Brown's problem was
that he was a victim of the overly strict Catholic Church.  Now these
students' comments may reflect a good deal of the cultural values they
have learned from their church, but it is amazing to me that even
Catholic students can be sitting in a class for college sophomores and
not understand that Goodman Brown, the town of Salem, etc., are part of
a Puritan context.

Perhaps students can be good citizens without knowing about the Puri-
tans, but I do think that knowing something about the history of
New England is more important than knowing about the ephemeral
ravings of either Ice T or Sister Souljah.  (Murphy Brown, the Simpsons,
the Waltons might be somewhat more interesting and important
cases.)
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Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 22:56:59 --500
From:         "David E. Schwalm" <IACDES@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: essential writing books

 *** Reply to note of 09/02/92 18:43
 I'll second "Revising Prose" in its various manifestations. Yeah, I know,
 Lanham is smug etc., but the blasted book works--not for basic writers but for
 competent writers who have imitated turgid models. I benefitted enormously
 myself when I used Joe Williams' "Style"--a good book for the more
 sophisticated student. I think Bean and Ramage's "Writing Argument" gives
 students the best insight into argumentation of the argument texts currently
 available. Toss in Mike Rose's autobiography. Someone else can suggest the
 touchy-feelies. (Oh, I'll toss in something by Elbow who is not as
 touchy-feely as some people think he is.
   Let's have Bruffee's Short Course, too.)

 -- David E. Schwalm, Assoc. Provost for Academic Programs
 ___Arizona State University West
 ___4701 West Thunderbird Rd.
 ___Phoenix, AZ 85069-7100___(602) 543-4500
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Date:         Sun, 23 Aug 1992 14:21:44 --500
From:         "David E. Schwalm" <IACDES@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      (Fwd: *C&CD*) RE: Computers and Composition Digest 6. 239 (1)

 *** Reply to note of 08/22/92 06:48
 Yes, down with right justification--in texts and in life!

 -- David E. Schwalm, Assoc. Provost for Academic Programs
 ___Arizona State University West
 ___4701 West Thunderbird Rd.
 ___Phoenix, AZ 85069-7100___(602) 543-4500
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Date:         Mon, 31 Aug 1992 19:02:11 -0400
From:         ENGMYLES@UBVMS.BITNET
Subject:      Re: (Fwd: *C&CD*) Comments on good and great papers (4)

Gardner: well said.  My life depended on, in some ways, what two English
teachers said about something I had written.  I didn't know it then.
Myles
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Date:         Mon, 31 Aug 1992 06:30:00 EDT
From:         "Composition Digest (Robert Royar,
              Moderator)" <R0MILL01@ULKYVX.BITNET>
Subject:      (Fwd: *C&CD*) Comments on good and great papers (4)

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Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 12:13:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Gardner Campbell <Campbell@usdcsv.acusd.edu>
Message-id: <920830121344.1717@USDCSV.ACUSD.EDU>
Subject: Comments on good and great papers (4)
Reply-to: Computers & Composition Digest (R. Royar) <R0MILL01@ULKYVX.BITNET>

My I interject a word on behalf of the students who are good, even very
good writers trying to get better?  Several posts have suggested these
students don't *really* need our comments:  "they'd learn anyway" seems
to be the argument.  (And the bad writers don't care and thus ignore
our comments--education is impossible q.e.d.  But enough of that for now.)
I disagree.  Saying that the best students don't need us and will learn
on their own because they are good students represents the kind of logic
that made my own experience as a good student in the public school system
so miserable and (largely, but not always) a waste of time.  One of the things
I *loved* about college was that the quality of commentary on my papers
took a quantum leap upward.  My best teachers were an attentive and intelligent
audience I had never found before.  And their commentary taught me most
of what I know as a writer.

I imagine most of you on this list were good writers in college.  Didn't you
value what your teachers had to say about your papers?  Didn't you *need*
the direction and advice and support that commentary offered, the attentive-
ness it demonstrated?  Don't you think *our* good students do too?

"Elitist" is a good handful of mud to sling.  Stoop and pick it up if you
want.  But any system that ignores the needs of those who do well, or denies
that those needs exist, ends up serving (perhaps even encouraging) a very
homogeneous population of the uncommitted, the unmotivated, and often the
actively anti-intellectual.

*All* our students have needs, many of them very pressing needs, and those
needs are NOT limited to any one type or category of student.  Very often I
deliberately ratchet *up* my standards and critical discourse on my best
papers as a way of encouraging *every* student to do the very best work she or
he is capable of.

Can you tell this issue touches me on the raw?

Exit, pursued by a bear.

Gardner Campbell
Campbell@acusd.bitnet
Campbell@usdcsv.acusd.bitnet

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Date:         Sun, 30 Aug 1992 23:00:54 CDT
From:         McDonald James C <jcm5337@USL.EDU>
Subject:      Re: (Fwd: *C&CD*) Some classes where groups have worked (4)

David, it seems to me that Hirsch's program primarily asks students to read
literature for information.  In fact, his cultural literacy program seems in
part a way of justifying the study of literature in an information age.
  I agree that we need to teach students how to read newspapers, textbooks, etc.
and wonder if schools don't do this because it would be viewed as too subversive
--do people want students to read history books critically?  But English
departments also ignore the literature that matters to people--Murphy Brown,
The Simpsons, The Waltons, the lyrics of Ice T and Sister Soljah (however she
spells her name) have been prominent in the campaign because people are
concerned about how popular literature reflects and shapes society.  Reading and
writing about these texts seems fair game for college English courses too.
   Jim McDonald
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Date:         Mon, 31 Aug 1992 22:01:04 --500
From:         "David E. Schwalm" <IACDES@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: (Fwd: *C&CD*) Comments on good and great papers (4)

 *** Reply to note of 08/31/92 16:09
 To say that all texts are fictions is probably true, but it tends to hide a
 few distinctions having to do with what responses different kinds of texts
 attempt to elicit from readers. A novel and a work of history may both be
 fictions, but they are fictions of different sorts: what could happen vs. what
 may have happened. The historical text requires careful analysis but perhaps
 not the same kind of analysis as the novel--say, rhetorical analysis rather
 than poetic analysis. We don't have to believe novels; we often do have to
 believe works that make a truth claim because we need the "information" in the
 work to use as a basis for subsequent thought or practical decisions. Perhaps
 its the distinction between willing suspension of disbelief and reluctant (and
 wary) belief.

 -- David E. Schwalm, Assoc. Provost for Academic Programs
 ___Arizona State University West
 ___4701 West Thunderbird Rd.
 ___Phoenix, AZ 85069-7100___(602) 543-4500
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Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 23:43:00 EDT
From:         WWOOD@LUCY.WELLESLEY.EDU
Subject:      Re: essential writing books

I hope if people reply to Wes Chapman's request, they reply to the list--
I'd love to hear your recommended writing books.  We're building similar
small deposits here.

Wini
wwood@lucy.wellesley.edu
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 10:50:30 ADT
Comments:     <26AUG92.11740301.0090.MUSIC@UNB.CA>
From:         HUNT000 <HUNT@UNB.CA>
Subject:      literacy, orality, & NeXT

     The comments about using NeXT computers to encode oral
comments on student papers sounds to me rather like a lot of
other cases where we've used a new technology to do what we'd
already decided wasn't worth doing with a previous technology.
     A number of years ago there was a spate of discussion of
using cassette tapes to record comments on student papers, so
that students could get longer or more expressive or more
interpersonal-sounding comments.  I wrote an article on it
myself (_College English_ 36:5 (January 1975), 581- 585).
I thought it was inconsistent with a commitment to writing as
an interpersonal medium then, and I can't see why doing it
with a computer, and under even more serious techological
constraints, makes it any less so.
                                    -- Russ
                                _~|__
Russell A. Hunt            _~|__)_ __)~|__   Learning and Teaching
Department of English      )_ __)_|_)__ __)    Development Officer
St. Thomas University        |  )____) |        EMAIL: hunt@unb.ca
Fredericton, New Brunswick___|____|____|____/  FAX: (506) 450-9615
E3B 5G3   CANADA          \                / PHONE: (506) 452-7700
                       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Date:         Sat, 29 Aug 1992 14:18:00 EST
From:         Joel Nydahl <NYDAHL@BABSON.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: literacy, orality, & NeXT

Wes -- Please send me the address of the publishers of PREPeditor.  Thanks.
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Date:         Sat, 29 Aug 1992 21:08:51 ADT
Comments:     <29AUG92.22875459.0030.MUSIC@UNB.CA>
From:         HUNT000 <HUNT@UNB.CA>
Subject:      comments

     Here's the question:
     ===========================================================
If writing comments on their papers doesn't help, if taping comments
they listen to doesn't help, why bother to read their papers at all?
Have them simply write 10 pages a day, every day, for six months and see
if they "develop" . . . or whatever?  Or have we just not figured out
how what we do works.  Or don't it work?
     ===========================================================
I'm not sure there's much evidence that it do work, at least for the
students who really need it (the ones who don't need it learn from
comments in whatever form, but they learn anyway, in my view: the ones
who really need my help tend also to be the ones who throw the comments
away as a featureless defeat.  And I don't think we can wait for
"development" to occur.  What, then?  Well, I think we can find ways to
have their writing actually read by people who are interested in what it
says (as opposed to interested in helping them with it) if we structure
situations appropriately.   They can write ten pages a day and it would
be better than what they usually do now . . . but it would be even
better if someone actually read it, and if both writer and reader cared
whether the reader understood it.  But of course, given the kind of
numbers writing teachers are talking about, there's just no possibility
for that audience to be the teacher (even if the students really did
believe we were interested in what they had to say -- a conclusion that
marginal comments makes very unlikely).  So why can't they be the
audience for each other?  Just find a situation in which something
depends on their finding something out and explaining it to somebody
else.  The teacher doesn't even have to see it, most of the time.
                                    -- Russ
                                _~|__
Russell A. Hunt            _~|__)_ __)~|__   Learning and Teaching
Department of English      )_ __)_|_)__ __)    Development Officer
St. Thomas University        |  )____) |        EMAIL: hunt@unb.ca
Fredericton, New Brunswick___|____|____|____/  FAX: (506) 450-9615
E3B 5G3   CANADA          \                / PHONE: (506) 452-7700
                       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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