HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Original_To:  BITNET%"CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 21:08:00 CDT
From:         "Love does not subtract, it multiplies." <HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET>
Subject:      RE: A Vote For Morality

<    John C. Wilke, MD issued a statement over the air in early August, on
<90 Joy radio. Dr. Wilke quoted a study by the Family Research Institute
<that compared the median age of death for different groups of Americans.
<
<                            Married Men - 75
<                           Unmarried Men - 57
<                           Homosexual Men - 42
<                        (reasons other than AIDS)
<                           Married Women - 79
<                          Unmarried Women - 71
<                              Lesbians - 45

Could we have more info on where this study got it's information from?

<Homosexual men committed suicide 26 times more often and were murdered 87
<times more often than heterosexual men.

<Lesbians died 453 times more often by being murdered than
<heterosexual women. Lesbians committed suicide 932 times more frequently
<than heterosexual women and died 307 times more often from accidents.

We need more of a breakdown of data here.

What percentage of gay youth committing suicide (A study presented at a meeting
of the Orthopsychiatric society several years ago showed that 20% of gays under
the age of 20 killed themselves, with the rate dropping down to average after
age 20) are doing so because of the stress of having to live in secret, or
because of abuse at the hands of unsympathetic parents?  In other words,
heterosexism and homophobia?

What percentage of Lesbian and Gay murder victims are killed by gay-bashers.
In other words, heterosexism and homophobia?



<    Didn't Moses say in Deuteronomy that the fruit of Sodom is "deadly
<poison?" Was it not in Proverbs.. "the years of the wicked are
<shortened?" Didn't Paul say in Romans that the sexually perverse "are
<paid in their own persons the fitting wage of such perversions?"

Sounds like a self-fulfilling prophecy.  Set up a system in which Lesbians and
Gays are under pressure from every angle, and then say that they cracked under
the pressure because of their lifestyle.

Dan
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 08:40:38 CST
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: CHRIST, NOT PURGATORY

Gareth ;

I thought the Scriptures say that our bodies will be clothed over with
immortality ... that our bodies will be redeemed and glorified as much as
our spirits are NOW.

It is only in our bodies that the devil can get any foothold ... see Romans
7.  Actually, he attempts to work on our thoughts, but in this life, our mind's
thoughts are implemented, as it were, through the "middle-man" of our brains.
Our brain is a Physical part of our bodies and it is at this point that the
devil works on the thoughts of our minds.



Rambling aside, the point is : If our bodies down here were as redeemed as our
spirits, the devil could not touch us.
When we stand before God, our bodies will be renewed, even as our spirits are
and we will live in Heaven without the ability to sin, and we will love it and
we will love the God who made it so.


Any thoughts??



Jesse Carnes
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 16:48:00 -0400
From:         STYLESBG@WATT.CCS.TUNS.CA
Subject:      Re: Pastor Bill where are you?

I'm here,  Jesse.  Yes it ws to me you sent the "Saving work..."  #1.  I
was blessed by the article,  and sent on to my son,  Rob,  who is
was blessed by the article,  and sent on to my son,  Rob,  who is Blessings,

Pastor Bill
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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 08:33:09 -0500
From:         Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: Predestination or Free Will

Excerpts from christia: 9-Nov-92 Re: Predestination or Free .. Jesse
Carnes@LSUVM.BITNE (544)

> Question :  "Does faith in Christ Preceed regeneration by God's Spirit
> or does regeneration bring about concomitant faith in Christ?" Is faith
> the RESULT of God's grace, or is it a condition of grace? The order of
> this is HIGHLY critical in defining our state as unbelievers versus
> being believers.

You did not answer the question she asked; you answered another.

You are equating grace with regeneration, which is precisely what I
think you are doing wrong.

Grace -> Faith -> Regeneration -> Salvation

not

Grace -> Regeneration -> Salvation  -> Faith

All things are possible through Christ Jesus, including enabling someone
to have faith through grace.  But simply because faith is a result of
God's grace, does not mean that regeneration is not a condition of faith.

Faith is a response to grace.  It's like a positive feedback op-amp
circuit.  We are the op-amp; God's grace is the signal.  We select the
resistor value.  Some of us generate positive feedback to God's grace,
which is then fed back into us, enabling us to produce an even stronger
output signal.  Nothing is done without the grace of God, the input
signal, but the output signal still depends on the op-amp's performance.

Can men resist the Holy Spirit?  Scripture certainly speaks of
"quenching" the Spirit, or grieving him, causing Him to withdraw.  "Do
not hold back your Holy Spirit from me" (Psalm 51).

Eric
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Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 13 Nov 1992 11:09:43 EST
From:         "SHELBY A. CROSS" <LIBSAC@EMUVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      Reply-Prayer Request-Scott

Dear Scott,

I enjoy guitar music so much. I used  to play cello so maybe I'm a little
partial (Smile).

Dear Heavenly Father,

Thank you  for all your many  blessings on us.  Father we ask you  to use
Scott  to your  fullest  extent.  Lord use  him  as  your instrument  not
only of praise  but of your love.  Lord let Scott decrease  and let Jesus
rise up  big in him.  Precious Holy Spirit  strengthen his inner  man and
let Jesus  be lifted up and  glorified. Father give him  a double portion
of Your  anointing and we pray  that souls will be  saved, delivered, and
healed. Father  we thank  and praise  You in advance  for what  will take
place at  this youth retreat  and ask that You  take charge and  that you
use everyone to  their fullest to glorify  You Lord. We give  You all the
glory, honor, and praise in Jesus Name we pray.  Amen.

Your sister in Christ,

Shelby--

P.S. - Have a Heaven of a time -- Smile--
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Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 20:49:27 -0700
From:         "(MARK DRAKE)" <DRAKE@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU>
Subject:      The Gospel

	gospel = good news

What is the good news???

The answer to that question is the answer to the question
"what is the gospel?"
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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 12:55:05 CST
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: The Gospel

Memo ;

H E A V E N   F O R B I D !!!

I am diametrically opposed to Catholocism as one can get, for I am a Calvinist.
On your second point, OK, sounds good.


Jesse Carnes
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 18:57:50 CST
Reply-To:     bradk@isdgsm.rtsg.mot.com
From:         "(Brad Kaiser)" <bradk%isdgsm@RTSG.MOT.COM>
Subject:      Re: WHAT WE OFFER GOD?
              "CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU" at Nov 11, 92 5:17 pm

Gareth McCaughan writes (quoting me):

> >By the way, the opposite of a Catholic is *NOT* a Calvinist.  The
> >opposite of a Catholic is called a Satanist.
>
> ... oooooh, cutting ...

It wasn't intended to be cutting at all; it's quite accurate.  The
Satanists parody and blaspheme Catholic forms of worship, not Protestant
ones.  Ever heard of the "Black Mass"?  The prescribed celebrant for
a Black Mass is a defrocked Catholic priest, not a defrocked minister.

> I bet you get some flak from the predestinarians for that!

I was informed by one of them that Catholicism is merely a more subtle
form of Satanism, and is wholly controlled by the devil.  I find such
tolerance refreshing; don't you?

> --
> Gareth McCaughan     Dept. of Pure Mathematics & Mathematical Statistics,
> gjm11@cus.cam.ac.uk  Cambridge University, England.    [Research student]

In Jesus,

Brad Kaiser
(bradk%isdgsm@rtsg.mot.com)

	  Those who trust in Him shall understand truth,
	  and the faithful shall abide with Him in love;
	  Because grace and mercy are with His holy ones,
	  and His care is with His elect.
		    -- Wis 3:9 [NAB]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: iain@ee.ryerson.ca (Iain Campbell)
Subject: Access to BITNET
Organization: Ryerson Polytechnical Institute, Toronto
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 19:10:44 GMT

A simple net question - many CHRISTIA posters are on BITNET, I am not,
and I have trouble emailing to BITNETters.  Is there a gateway/router
or something that will forward mail with a .BITNET suffix? or 
what exactly do I have to do??

Thanks in advance 
Iain


    SS  III   GG                                               SS  III   GG
   S     I   G      iain@ee.ryerson.ca       < now showing    S     I   G
    SS   I  G  GGG  iain@acsserv1.ryerson.ca < coming soon     SS   I  G  GGG
..    S  I   G  G                                          ..    S  I   G  G
..  SS  III   GG                                           ..  SS  III   GG
                                                           

Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: sschaff@roc.SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Stephen F. Schaffner)
Subject: Re:      Re: righteousness
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1992 18:53:41 GMT

In article <CHRISTIA%92110314293217@ASUACAD.BITNET>,         
Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET> writes:
|> Dear Mark Drake;
|> 
|> Read Stephen Charnock's 2 vol. set : "The Attributes of God"
|> By the way my source is called the Word of God.
|> 
|> I will just let you dig it out ... actually I am incredulous at your lack of
|> exposure to these basics.

I, for one, am always heartened to see that great reformation doctrine of 
'sola Charnock' being upheld.

-- 
Steve Schaffner        sschaff@unixhub.slac.stanford.edu
	The opinions expressed may be mine, and may not be those of SLAC, 
Stanford University, or the DOE.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 08:02:13 CST
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: WHAT WE OFFER GOD?
              8 Nov 1992 23:31:04 GMT from <Lubosh.Hanuska@ANU.EDU.AU>

Dear Lubosh ;

Even if free will could be existent, would it necessarily be WORTHY to be
an offering to God?

Further, How do you know for sure that our wills (and yes we do have them)
are necessarily "Free"?
Further, what would define Biblically, as "FREE"?
How are our wills free in light of Paul's words from Romans 3 that say that
"...NO one SEEKS after God" and elsewhere where he says that the "...mind of
sinful does not submit to God's law, indeed it cannot"  and elsewhere when
Jesus, himself, states that "...all who sin are slaves to sin"?

What sort of freedom is that?

Indeed the matter is worsened when we see Christ saying that "...no one can
come to me unless my Father enables him" (John 6:65).
A bit of INABILITY wouldn't you say?

As far as being ABLE to come to Christ with our wills, how do we deal with
Christ's words in John 6 when He says that "...all that the Father GIVES to
me WILL come to me..."It seems that COMING to Christ, will-wise, is
determined upon being given to Christ by the Father.



Just some thoughts ;


Jesse Carnes
From: STR008@UKCC.UKY.EDU (Julie Nott)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: KJV Bible on a server to download
Date: 12 Nov 92 19:39:34 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

Thanks Memo for the info -- I'm sure that will be useful to other
people also!!!

Julie Nott
Univ of KY (Go CATS!)
<str008@ukcc.uky.edu>
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 11:59:25 -0500
From:         Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: WHAT WE OFFER GOD?

Excerpts from christia: 11-Nov-92 Re: WHAT WE OFFER GOD? Jesse
Carnes@LSUVM.BITNE (256)

> Eric ;

> First, you need to stop ... fora moment ... and DEFINE "free will"
> within the scope of the Scriptures.  Does it state that man has a "free
> will"? Does it define it and say that Christians HAVE it as well?

There IS no definition of "free will" within the scope of Scriptures.

Hence the problem.

Now, how about this:  Why are we asked to submit to God's will, to let
God's will be done, when we have no will to submit?  Does this make any
sense whatsoever if the only will that exists is God's will?  Why should
we pray for God's will to be done, if it ALWAYS without exception is
done?  Does this not imply that for some reason, God's will is not
always done?  Does this not imply free will?

Eric
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Date:         Sun, 8 Nov 1992 13:11:52 CST
Comments:     Answering received message
From:         THERESA BLACKWELL <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
Subject:      Again I say, GROSS!!!

I'll say it again, YUCK!  :(
I'm hoping God'll never put me to the test as far as this matter is
concerned.
Geesh.
ONLY as a last resort.
And, even then I'd probably rather starve first.

 * <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
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Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1992 10:46:00 EST
From:         "DRCV06::GRAHAM" <GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL>
Subject:      Thanks for the Rush.

What, me thanking Macs, (or whatever the real name is) for posting Rush L.,
sure.

I want Christians to closly observe this brutal and evil man for what he
really is.  You will not get truth out of him, but you will get self
serving lies and scandal mongering on every show.  Observe that this man is
a mean spirited naysayer who will not stand, for one minute, anyone who
disagrees with him unless he finds in that person material for fun-making.

Rush sounds like that miscreant Dole.  Dole said that he w ould make sure
the Democratic administration was given as tough a time as possible; who
appointed him the Archangel Michael!

Folks, the conservative Christian movement is being led by evil and Satan
inspired men.  They are misleading millions of honest, God-fearing
believers and it is a monumental shame.  Don't buy off on the Christian
Coalition, Robertson, Falwell, Rush, or any other "Christian Right"
leaders.  They want to lead you streight to hell, don't let them.

I don't realy want to start a wr here, I don't have anything at all
negative to say about any member of this list.  I'm just so concerned that
Christians are being misled by the so-called Evangelical conservative
movement.  I'm sorry if this causes offense, but you must stop and look
closely at the Christian Coalition and it spawn, the picture is a horrible
one of intimidation and stealth candidates and improperly used funds to
push pseudo-Christian issues in state legislatures.

We don't need a moral government nor moral legislators, we need Christians
whose only desire is to spread and declare the gospel.

Dan Graham
From: gjm11@cus.cam.ac.uk (G.J. McCaughan)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: CHRIST, NOT PURGATORY
Date: 5 Nov 92 00:57:10 GMT
Organization: U of Cambridge, England

In article <CHRISTIA%92110409092021@ASUACAD.BITNET>, NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET (Jesse Carnes) writes:

> OK, I think I understand what you are saying.
> Now, I would say that all true Christians are SEEN by the Father through the
> righteousness of Christ.  It's a legal standing based upon the earned
> righteousness of Christ (His life experiences when on Earth).
> Analogous to this would be having Jesus' perfect test paper being stapled
> over our imperfect paper.  His score does not inherently become ours, its
> merely viewed by the Father, legally, as ours through our Union with Christ.
> 
> Make any sense?

Yes, of course. I understand you perfectly.

Now, continuing with your analogy: Suppose we're taking the test as part of
a job application, to determine whether we're capable of doing the job. Then
it's all very well being credited with full marks despite not really being
able to do any of the questions; but when we come to start work we will need
more than that.

Similarly, when the time comes for us to enter fully into the kingdom of heaven,
the fact that we are accounted righteous will entitle us to enter, but will not
make us capable of living there, just as our modified test paper will get us the
job but will not make us capable of doing it.

-- 
Gareth McCaughan     Dept. of Pure Mathematics & Mathematical Statistics,
gjm11@cus.cam.ac.uk  Cambridge University, England.    [Research student]
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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 11:36:00 EST
From:         "DRCV06::GRAHAM" <GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL>
Subject:      Silence not = condone.

MAKS, (could you please use your real name), silence on any subject does
absolutely not equal agreement.  This is one of the silliest arguments in
any language.  If your assertion is true, then Paul agreed with all of the
excesses of the Greeks and Romans, and Jesus agree with many of the faults
of the Saducees which He did not decry.  No, silence means nothing more
than you don't want to tackle that particular subject, or it means you are
wise enough to keep your mouth shut.

Rights are not a Christian issue.  If you think they are, you must find a
theology that agrees, and I don't think that is possible.  The New
Testament was written in a world where rights were nonexistant.  Freedom
was a word for the rich and powerful only.  Christians were at the bottom
of the social ladder, often buried at the bottom, often beneth the bottom
in the Catacombs.

We do not see the New Testament writers urging social action or assertion
of rights nor do we see them decrying the ills of their society, we see
them urging the proclaimation of the gospel, only that.  (Not to mention
loving one another.)

Things like the American Center for Law and Justice and the Christian
Coalition are an aggregis affront to the honor and name of Christ.

Dan Graham
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Via:      UK.AC.SOLENT;  6 NOV 92 14:00:14 GMT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1992 13:58:00 GMT
From:         Z_STAFF_CL@SOUTHAMPTON-INSTITUTE.AC.UK
Subject:      RE: Christian Attitudes About Cannibalism

Darren,

I thank you for the change of subject.

I am not sure what to say here.  I have a practical streak that says if it
is the only food available (I'm not sure it would have been in the case you
mentioned) then O.K.

There are other issues.

If the body is a result of murder I don't think I'd be happy for fear of
condoning the murder.

If the death was natural , I'd be concerned about what that person was a
carrier of and if I would be better off not touching that meat !

Please God, may I never be tested to make up my mind on this one !

Carol L
Z_STAFF_CL@UK.AC.SOUTHAMPTON-INSTITUTE
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 09:29:22 CST
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Predestination or Free Will
              7 Nov 1992 05:36:07 GMT from <nlt@GBORO.GLASSBORO.EDU>

Nancy ;

A quary for ye :

"Just HOW did those men of olde "resist" the Holy Spirit, in context?"
This is especially important in light of Christ's words "... all that the
Father has GIVEN to me WILL come to me" (John 6:38-40).

Question :  "Does faith in Christ Preceed regeneration by God's Spirit or
does regeneration bring about concomitant faith in Christ?"
Is faith the RESULT of God's grace, or is it a condition of grace?
The order of this is HIGHLY critical in defining our state as unbelievers
versus being believers.


Jesse Carnes
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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 14:17:04 -0500
From:         Eric James Ewanco <eje@IRENAEUS.MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: Point to Eric.

Excerpts from christia: 10-Nov-92 Point to Eric. "DRCV06::GRAHAM"@DRCVAX. (372)

> Eric, you are correct, good point.  We do have, in addition to spreading
> the gospel, the great responsibility of easing pain and poverty whenever
> and wherever we can.  This, however, still has nothing whatever to do
> with organizations like the Christian Coalition.  If anything, we should
> be so busy doing good that we don't have time to campaign for rights.

> Dan Graham

THAT is entirely a different question, whether we should try to
accomplish the Gospel goals through political or governmental means.
Personally I think those who are attempting to accomplish social change
through government are barking up the wrong tree.  Nothing will do any
good until the people of society turn towards God of their own volition,
rather than being coerced into doing good by the government.

Still, we need to ensure that we have the rights we need to spread the
Gospel unfettered, for if the government prevents us from spreading the
Gospel, the Gospel proclamation suffers.

Eric
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 16:38:18 CDT
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      NOMAIL for a while.

Hi all. I am setting no mail for a while whilst my modem is off
the air (about 10 days)..

Pleas email me privately with the discussions on Christ as a Role Model!

Thanks..


---------------------+-------------+-----------------------------------------
Ian Williams         |    _--_|\   |      Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems       |   /      \  |	  Phone	  : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia  |   \_.--*_/  |
                     |         v   |
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Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 14:40:00 EST
From:         "DRCV06::GRAHAM" <GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL>
Subject:      Psalm 9:17, not harsh.

Why is it harsh?  It is God taking sovereign control as He pleases.  There
is noth ing harsh about it.  The Bible makes it plain that all the lost wil
l have rejected God.  Why is it harsh for Him to mete out negative reward
here and in eternity, both.

God's justice is just that, justice.  His mercy is also just that, mercy.
I don't think there are degrees of justice or mercy.  After all, it IS His
universe. [grin]

Dan Graham
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia