From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Subject: Re: Rashi's quote (was Re: Almah - Betulah)
Organization: University of Turku
	<1jp2dkINNg8d@terminator.rs.itd.umich.edu>
	<LJMORLY.93Jan22181811@polaris.utu.fi>
	<1jpcf1INNiui@terminator.rs.itd.umich.edu>
Date: 23 Jan 93 12:26:03

In article <1jpcf1INNiui@terminator.rs.itd.umich.edu> jlove@ivrit.ra.itd.umich.edu (Jack Love) writes:
> In article <LJMORLY.93Jan22181811@polaris.utu.fi> ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen) writes:
> >> Actually, Laura, li'valed is the rabbinic Hebrew niphal infinitive
> >> of the root yod.lamed.dalet.
> >
> >There's 'heh' in between, whereas in the above there isn't. And
> >what do you mean by rabbinic Hebrew ? 

> Exactly. In rabbinic Hebrew, the letter "heh" is frequently elided.

Oh. But it isn't one of the letters you can elide just like that...

> This doesn't mean that in the particular citation you're looking
> at we do have a nifal--I'd have to take the time to actually
> look at the text and see whether there are variants, etc.

Please do that.

> As for what I mean by "rabbinic Hebrew": The term is a general
> one suitable for all Hebrew following the close of the Biblical
> period and until the beginning of modern and Israeli Hebrew.

Oh, are there both modern and Israeli Hebrew ? What's the difference ?
BTW I wouldn't call modern Hebrew "rabbinic Hebrew", since the Rabbis
in Jerusalem where all the time making troubles for Eliezer ben Yehuda...
(Maybe they didn't want their students to start reading Tanach on their
own...)

> Because the time and geographic frames are so broad, this period
> can be sub-divided in many different ways. 

I'd just say Tanach Hebrew, Mishnaic Hebrew and modern Hebrew, of which 
both Mishnaic and modern are based of Tanach Hebrew.

> >(BTW don't forget that if it would be nif'al, it would mean 'to be born',
> >not 'to give birth'.)

> A good point, Laura, but not necessarily. In the first place, you
> are assuming that the nifal represents the passive voice.

Well, here it does. 'Lehivaled' means 'to be born'. 

...
> hardly a passive voice construction! Because the nifal is 
> much more flexible than your response would indicate, we would
> have to look at your citation a bit more closely to see how
> it might best be translated.

I did already. And since others have also translated lamed-vav-lamed-dalet
as 'to give birth', there shouldn't be any problems with that.

> >I'm still waiting for some of you to translate the whole sentence:
> >"veyesh potrin sheze haot shealmah haita ve'eina reyuah levaled".

> Here I'm going to have to use a cop out. Since I don't keep any
> Jewish scholarly sources at my work desk, and since I am unlikely
> to have the time at home to do the research, I'll just have to
> hope that someone else will be willing to put in the effort to
> help you with this. But I'll be happy to answer any more questions
> based on grammar.

<grin> Thanks for your effort <grin>. Funny thing... I just read it 
through and saw the meaning... As did a friend of mine who has lived
in Israel for 20 years... 

"AND THERE ARE THOSE WHO SAY THAT THE SIGN IS, THAT THE GIRL WAS 
A VIRGIN AND INCAPABLE OF GIVING BIRTH."

> ________________________________________
> Jack F. Love	| 	Opinions expressed are mine alone.
> 		|	(Unless you happen to agree.)

- Laura
--
"Who has gone up to heaven and come down ?
 Who has gathered up the wind in the hollow of his hands ?
 Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak ?
 Who has established all the ends of the earth ?
 What is his name, and the name of his son ?
 Tell me if you know !"      - Mishlei 30:4