HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: stacey@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu (Stacey B. Martin)
Subject: Re: Population of Ireland pre- and post-famine
Originator: news@essex.ecn.uoknor.edu
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 18:28:26 GMT
Organization: AUS
Followup-To: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.british

In article <pop@kaa.gr.osf.org>, emcmanus@gr.osf.org (Eamonn McManus)
wrote:
> 
> This is not to downplay the effects of the Famine, though.  The
> official census figures showed nearly 1,400,000 deaths between 1841
> and 1851, and the real figure is certainly considerably higher.  Some
> 1,500,000 people emigrated, most of whom went to America.  (We don't
> know how many arrived there alive, of course, the conditions in the
> "coffin ships" being quite appalling.)

	I saw in a recent _TIme_ magazine (I believe) that the Irish famine
	between 1841-1851 killed more people than ANY famine yet. That figure
	includes Ethiopia.


Stacey
From: chorley@vms.ocom.okstate.edu
Subject: Re: This Favorite Lie Again.
Organization: OSU College of Osteopathic Medicine
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 18:35:47 GMT

In article <1993Jan27.140425.15370@cs.tcd.ie>, riordanm@cs.tcd.ie (Mark Riordan) writes:
> In article <1993Jan27.132914.8767@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> mmh@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach) writes:

 "Ulster will fight and Ulster will be right"  
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

> As an aside I am told that the above phrase is due to Kipling
> and was an ironic comment on these people. Are either of these
> points true? Or was Kipling a firm believer in the statement?
> Or is it not Kipling's phrase?

Although it may be one of Mr. Kipling's exceedingly good statements, I read it
first as a quotation taken from a speech made by Randolph Churchill, Winnie's
father: I believe it sunk his political career.

	The fundamental problem IMHO of the issue is how to get the two "warring
bands of Israelites" to realise that neither is going to go away, and they have
to learn to live with each other.

David N. Chorley


Xref: sparky soc.culture.celtic:8924 soc.culture.british:19398
From: E.P.Gormley@massey.ac.nz (Eamonn Gormley)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: This Favorite Lie Again.
Date: 26 Jan 93 03:52:42 GMT
Organization: Massey University
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1

In article <1993Jan22.191831.17248@philabs.philips.com> Damian M. Lyons,
dml@philabs.philips.com writes:
>In deference to the native rights origin of this problem, I believe
>that the next action of the British government should be to take
>unilateral action to restablize the statelet. I suggest a power
>sharing arrangement that is immune to destruction by the Unionist
>majority. I have described it in previous posts and I'd be glad to
>discuss it. This newsgroup has a lot of postings on violence and
>the rightness of wrongness of a united Ireland; it has precious
>little discussion of power-sharing and more peaceful methods for
>addressing NI.

I have missed your previous description  for a power sharing arrangement
so I cannot comment on it.  I was just wondering what are the in-built
guarantees protecting the rights of the nationalist community, and more
importantly how you propose to make it immune to destruction. It seems to
me that any potential unilateral decision on the future of NI alienates
some significant section of the community who are then hell bent on its
destruction. And so the cycle of violence continues where the only
victors are the warring factions thriving on the insecurity that has been
created.  I don't see the solution, so I would be interested to hear the
description of your vision.  



 *******************************************
 *Eamonn Gormley,  E-mail, E.P.Gormley@massey.ac.nz *
 *******************************************
From: rosemary@wpi.WPI.EDU (Rosemary Irene Braun)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: CYMRAEG
Date: 24 Jan 1993 22:56:49 GMT
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
NNTP-Posting-Host: wpi.wpi.edu


Hello!

I am an American physics student who is fascinated with the Welsh
language. Unfortunately, institutions here do not offer any courses,
and I find it very difficult to pick up languages on my own. Are there 
any Welsh speakers reading this who would not mind answering a few 
of my endless questions? If so, I would be extremely grateful if 
you would contact me by email.

Many thanks in advance!

   *-------------------*------------------*------------------------*
   |  drawroF gnikooL  |  Rosemary Braun  |  rosemary@wpi.wpi.edu  |
   *-------------------*------------------*------------------------*


Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: esharp@sage.cc.purdue.edu (The Baker)
Subject: Ancient Pipes.
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center
Distribution: all
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 21:41:37 GMT

 I am reading a book on Celtic Myths and it refrences a Mr. O'Curry's 
translation of a tale from the Danaan - Fomorian battles regarding Lugh, 
the Dagda, and Ogma rescuing the Dagda's harp after the second battle of
Moytura.  Mr. O'Curry translated the Dagda's invocation of the harp thusly:
"Come, apple-sweet murmurer, come, four-angled frame of harmony, come, Summer,
come, Winter, from the mouths of harps and bags and pipes."
	My main question is about what time period this is supposed to have
occured in, and if the pipes mentioned were similar to modern bagpipes (if
so to what type?).  My guess is that since the bags are mentioned apart from the
pipes, it would more closly resemble the Italian bagpipe, if the translation
is true.
	Thank you for any light you may be able to shed on this.

******************************************************************************* All animals are strictly dry, they sinless live and swiftly die.
But sinful, Ginful, beer soaked man survives three score years and ten
                                                -origin unknown-
*******************************************************************************
Edwin Sharp
esharp@sage.cc.purdue.edu
Finger me often to see the amazing plan changer in action!
From: morna@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Morna J Findlay)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Casement update
Date: 22 Jan 93 15:04:23 GMT
Reply-To: morna@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Morna J Findlay)
Organization: Laboratory for the Foundations of Computer Science, Edinburgh U

In article <CC.93Jan22103744@arran.dcs.ed.ac.uk> cc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Chris Cooke) writes:
>In article <1993Jan20.205436.22011@e2big.mko.dec.com> holohan@mark.enet.dec.com (Mark Holohan) writes:
>
>   The British government revealed during the eighth trial in November 1992
>   that there may be a ninth trial arising out of the Casement Park incident
>   on March 19, 1988.  The Casement Park incident arose after two British
>   Army corporals drove into a funeral cortege in 1988.  The soldiers were
>   removed from their car after on of them fired shots.  They were then taken
>   away to Casement Park where they were shot by the IRA.
>
>Genuine question: *were* they shot by the IRA?  The media here has always
>given the impression that the two men were ripped apart limb from limb by an
>angry crowd, rather than shot.


The whole incidient is on film. The soldiers ( not in uniform) did
not "drive into" the cortege. They drove towards it, tried to reverse
away, were pulled from their cars, stripped and beaten and then shot.
As I remember, they were shot only yards from the car, not taken away.

It may be the case that IRA members - as opposed to "the IRA" -
were the ones who shot them - as they are more likely to carry guns
than ordinary mourners. It is not known whether those people who beat
them up were all IRA members.

The incident, as I have seen it on TV anyway, looked rather like that
awful one where the truck driver in Los Angeles was attacked by a mob.


I do not remember seeing the soldiers fire shots. I think one of them
definately pulled a gun though - anyone remember?


M
-- 
Morna Findlay 					JANET:morna@uk.ac.ed.dcs 
	Thanksgiving For a National Victory (Robert Burns)
Ye hypocrites! are these your pranks? To murder men and give God thanks?
Desist, for shame! Proceed no further: God won't accept your thanks for murther.
From: 00rdharringt@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu (Rob Harrington)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Michael Collins
Date: 27 Jan 93 19:55:43 GMT
Organization: Ball State University

In article <1993Jan22.223104.8080@newstand.syr.edu>, crdunlea@rodan.acs.syr.EDU (Christopher R. Dunlea) writes:
> Michael Collins as the "Man who made Ireland"? The last time I heard
> that sort of tripe was when I was a senior in college. My advisor 
> invited me to take a graduate course with him on Ireland to prepare me
> for grad school, and it turned out he did the same to 2 sophomores who
> were energetic students in one of his other classes. One of them made
> a paper that was unbelievably in adulation of the importance of Collins--
> much to the obvious disgust and/or derision of the real grad students.
> 
> Sounds all a bit overblown to me.

Well that's all nice and good but what were your problems with it?

-- 
/---------------------------------------v-------------------------------------\
|  Rob Harrington                       |              Ball State University  |
|  Department of History                |               Muncie, Indiana, USA  |
|  Vax--00RDHARRINGT@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu  |       Unix--herring@bsu-cs.bsu.edu  |
>---------------------------------------^-------------------------------------<
|                  Ball State University - University Democrats               |
|                Not a spokesperson - REPEAT - Not a spokesperson             |
\-----------------------------------------------------------------------------/
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Irish Books/U.S. Bookshops
From: hooverb@cs.wvu.wvnet.edu (Bruce Hoover,Armstrong)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 14:11:32 GMT
Organization: Concurrent Engineering Research Center
Originator: hooverb@a.cs.wvu.wvnet.edu

a recent post:
> 
> Listen, you moron, you are confusing which pratts you are responding to,
> You are mixing my replies with someone else.  Get it right

Damn, I love a good intellectual discussion! 8-)
.
Xref: sparky soc.culture.celtic:8891 soc.culture.british:19343
From: cc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Chris Cooke)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: IRA winning the economic war
Date: 25 Jan 93 11:07:47 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Edinburgh, Scotland

In article <1993Jan21.133854.28536@e2big.mko.dec.com> holohan@mark.enet.dec.com (Mark Holohan) writes:

     Compensation Costs:  And then there is the compensation costs of the
     war.  The IRA bombs at Staples Corner and the Baltic Exchange in
     London are thought to have cost 8 billion pounds. 

Goodness.  They must be pretty expensive buildings...

     The Quid Pro Quo:  And what does Britain get in return for all this
     cash?  From the government's point of view it maintains its commitment
     to the unionists and is relieved of the embarrassment of " giving in
     to terrorism".  But it is also publicly humiliated internationally by
     the likes of Amnesty International and the MacBride Principles
     Campaign in a world which sees the problem as essentially colonial,
     and which forces it to spend many thousands of pounds on a
     sophisticated propaganda machine in Europe and the US.

Talking of Amnesty International, aren't they the ones who also criticised
the IRA for being cruel and inhuman, or something like that?   :-)
--
	-- Chris. 	cc@dcs.ed.ac.uk   (on Janet, cc@uk.ac.ed.dcs)
From: halpin@vax.oxford.ac.uk
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: King's and Queen's Coy
Date: 22 Jan 93 09:28:03 GMT
Organization: Oxford University VAX 6620


In article <1993Jan20.195546.18313@maths.tcd.ie>, dwilkins@maths.tcd.ie (David Wilkins) writes:
> In article <1993Jan18.222906.5599@maths.tcd.ie> pwaldron@maths.tcd.ie (Paddy Waldron) writes:

>>The names ceased to be used at independence in 1922, and the counties
>>reverted to their original names of Laois (Queens) and Offaly (Kings),
>>the latter itself an anglicisation of Ui Faile.
> 
> They probably were not organized as counties prior to the plantation.
> The local ruler was the O Connor Faly (if I remember correctly).

Did you hear about the snob from the midlands?

He was awfully Offaly.
                      .
                       .
                        (groan)

(no sig, in shame)
From: dam@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (David Morning)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: California who? Murrayfield what?
Date: 26 Jan 93 09:40:59 GMT
Organization: Glasgow University Computing Science Dept.

finlay_j@spcvxb.spc.edu writes:

>In today's news from Liam Ferrie, mention is made of the Irish
>performance at Murrayfield last weekend. Our man in Galway says he
>would not have been surprised if a certain individual who
>resides in California had been at the game.

>Anyone know what he's referring to? I'm totally lost.

Ronnie Ray-gun?

Dave

-- 
Xref: sparky soc.culture.celtic:8836 soc.culture.british:19143
From: peterc@dub-tse.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Peter Cassidy)
Subject: Re: Currency Crises and the British Press.
Organization: Motorola Land Mobile Products Sector
Distribution: soc.culture.celtic soc.culture.british
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 12:15:09 GMT

In article <1993Jan26.093700.20135@cs.tcd.ie>, riordanm@cs.tcd.ie (Mark Riordan) writes:
|> In article <RUAIRI.93Jan25165639@silvia.sy.ssl.fujitsu.co.jp> ruairi@sy.ssl.fujitsu.co.jp (Ruairi.H) writes:

|> They are obviously jealous of the punt being the most valuable
|> currency in the world, and that by implication we obviously
|> have the world's strongest economy and are soon set to 
|> overtake the world economic powers as the most powerful economic
|> entity the world has ever seen.
|> 
|> MARK

Ohhhhh! I see. Guess that explains why my pay is so high! We're having too
good a time - they should increase mortgage rates or something. I need 
something to do with all my excess money !! NOT!!!!!!

-- 
Peter Cassidy - Motorola B.V Ireland - peterc@comm.mot.com - C10404@email

The opinions expressed above are mine, and not necessarily those of Motorola.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.british
From: unichaoi@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Una Ni Chaoimh)
Subject: Re: Population of Ireland pre- and post-famine
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 22:33:25 GMT

Where would I find a breakdown of the pre-famine population by province
or region ? Or does anyone know offhand what the population of Connemara
was then (ballpark) ?
,
Una

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.british
From: "paul oboyle" <paul.oboyle@canrem.com>
Subject: irish emigrant
Reply-To: "paul oboyle" <paul.oboyle@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: soc
Date: 28 Jan 93 19:46:28 EST

Friends,
        Can anyone tell me how to obtain the 'Irish Emigrant' electronic
        newspaper.

        Thanks

        Paul O
---
  SLMR 2.1a  --T-A+G-L-I+N-E--+M-E-A+S-U-R+I-N-G+--G-A+U-G-E--
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.british
From: dml@philabs.philips.com (Damian M. Lyons)
Subject: Re: This Favorite Lie Again.
Originator: dml@rabbit
Organization: Autonomous Systems, Philips Labs, Briarcliff Manor, NY
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 17:43:16 GMT


In article <1993Jan26.224651.24628@philmtl.philips.ca>, ray@philmtl.philips.ca (Ray Dunn) writes:
|> In refd article, dml@philabs.philips.com (Damian M. Lyons) writes:
|> >The crucial point is that the US is dealing with this as a native rights
|>.....
|> What this seems to mean is that natives should have "native rights" and not
|> "civil rights", and whatever these rights are, they are not equal.
|> 
|> Treating the NI issue as "civil rights" acknowledges that all citizens
|> should have equal rights.
|> 
|> 

I have argued, Ray, that the conditions under which NI was established
effectively muffle any attempt to invoke democratic, one-man-one-vote,
equal-rights-for-everyone means. Trying to resolve the current unhappy
state of affairs from a starting point of `all citizens are equal' just 
maintains the inequity on the 3/4 million nationalists who were drafted
without their say into NI -- a state in which they were a built-in minority.

I postulate instead that the correct solution is to treat the Unionist and
Nationalist communities, not their individual citizens, on an equal basis.
This increased status for Nationlists is what I mean when I say the issue
should be treated as a native rights issue. That is as far as I think the
issue needs to be taken, and honestly, apart from terminology, I don't believe
it requires much of change in mindset on the part of the British government.

Damian.
-- 
_________________________________________________________________
         Damian M. Lyons | x6444 | dml@philabs.philips.com       
_________________________________________________________________
From: mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Irish Books/U.S. Bookshops
Date: 22 Jan 1993 17:56:17 GMT
Organization: N.I.C.E.
Reply-To: mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.128.60

Christopher R. Dunlea writes:
>Oo, temper! But if you cannot see historical criticism for what it is, 

In the present debate, isn't that something like "The Emperor's
New Clothes"?

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Walker)
Subject: Re: Kilts
Organization: Clarkson University
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 18:21:05 GMT

From article <c4qNXB3w165w@suction.acme.gen.nz>, by scimitar@suction.acme.gen.nz (Robert Singers):
> Aengus Lawlor <RBYAML@rohvm1.rohmhaas.com> writes:
> 
>> >  Note that tartan is only prohibited from being used in great coats or
>> >  upper coats -- no use of tartan on other piecing of clothing, or other
>> >  uses such as tableclothes, bed clothes, etc, are mentioned.  So tartan
>> >  didn't really go out of use or production.
> 
>> Assuming, of course, that tartan was actually used for tableclothes, bed
>> clothes, etc. (I don't know whether it was or not, but it seems reasonable
>> that if the tartan was an important enough political symbol to be banned, it
>> would be too important to be used as a table cloth. This may be a peculiarly
>> modern sensibility, but, without anything to indicate otherwise, it seems
>> like a fairly obvious conclusion).
> 
> I don't think it is an obvious conclusion.  I would think 
> the ban against tartan as a clothing material would lead to 
> it being used for other purpose, as an act of legal defiance 
> against oppression.
> 

I am have not been following this thread (pun intended) about kilks, but
I though that it was Highland Dress that was banned rather than tartan
per se. Please correct me if I am wrong.

													GW

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.british
From: emcmanus@gr.osf.org (Eamonn McManus)
Subject: Population of Ireland pre- and post-famine
Organization: Open Software Foundation Research Institute, Grenoble
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 13:10:41 GMT

silva@pangea.Stanford.EDU (Holly Silva) writes:
>	The population of Ireland c. 1840 was ~7-8 million. That's
>twice today's population of ~3.5 million. About 1 million died in the
>Potato Famine, and the island exported many (perhaps most) of its best 
>and brightest young people for generations after that watershed event.
...
>	You could perhaps argue that the Native Americans have simply,
>through their own tenacity and strength retained their cultures more
>readily than the Irish or Highlands Scots, but a more realistic argument
>can be made to the effect that a rather successful cultural genocide
>occurred in Britain through the past 2 and 1/2 centuries.

Without arguing the point, it should be noted that you are comparing
the 1840 population of the whole island with the present-day
population of the Republic.  The present population of the whole
island is over 5 million.

This is not to downplay the effects of the Famine, though.  The
official census figures showed nearly 1,400,000 deaths between 1841
and 1851, and the real figure is certainly considerably higher.  Some
1,500,000 people emigrated, most of whom went to America.  (We don't
know how many arrived there alive, of course, the conditions in the
"coffin ships" being quite appalling.)

Nonetheless, blaming these horrendous losses on a programme of
"cultural genocide" on the part of some mythically monolithic British
Government is certainly simplistic.  The actions of Robert Peel as
Prime Minister at the start of the Famine were sensible and
well-considered.  Unfortunately, Peel was defeated after forcing
through the repeal of the Corn Laws, and his successors were a good
deal less enlightened.  A combination of laissez-faire economics and
inhuman Malthusian attitudes led in many cases to behaviour not far
removed from genocide.  But to see this as part of some long-term plan
is to attribute to governments a persistence and range of vision which
they seldom if ever possess.

,
Eamonn
From: halpin@vax.oxford.ac.uk
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Casement update
Date: 23 Jan 93 11:09:47 GMT
Organization: Oxford University VAX 6620

In article <C19GJC.HLp@dcs.ed.ac.uk>, morna@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Morna J Findlay)
writes:
> In article <CC.93Jan22103744@arran.dcs.ed.ac.uk> cc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Chris
Cooke) writes:
>>Genuine question: *were* they shot by the IRA?  The media here has always
>>given the impression that the two men were ripped apart limb from limb by an
>>angry crowd, rather than shot.
> 
> 
> The whole incidient is on film. The soldiers ( not in uniform) did
> not "drive into" the cortege. They drove towards it, tried to reverse
> away, were pulled from their cars, stripped and beaten and then shot.
> As I remember, they were shot only yards from the car, not taken away.

You're a bit off beam here Morna -- the initial, highly dramatic,
part of the incident is on film and was seen on the news.  However,
that is only part of the story and is very misleading. The
corporals were taken away after the initial beating, in taxis (I
think one of the people in jail now is one of the taxi-drivers), to
Casement Park, where they were shot, some not inconsiderable time
later (c. 30mins). I.E. after the initial wild reaction, a certain
amount of organisation kicked in.

You also have to remember the context  -- three ugly violent
incidents in the space of a very few days. They were actually
burying someone who had been killed by the mad loyalist gunman, who
came shooting and lobbing grenades at them, the same people, the
last time they were burying someone. No wonder the crowd reaction
was that they were under attack again.

And yes, the soldiers were armed, and perversely, this probably
killed them. One of the soldiers produced his gun and this
convinced the crowd that they were under attack a second time. 

And the whole issue is NOT off-limits to the media - it hit
national news (I heard it on Radio 4) about 2 or three days ago.
The father of one of the convicted men was recounting how he was
walking down the street with his son, a little time after the
soldiers had been pulled out of the car, and how his son was
telling him "we got more loyalist bastards attacking us" when they
heard the shots. 

I wouldn't be surprised, either, if there weren't some residual
resentment on the part of the TV companies, at the way the British
Government seized their footage.

It's a really weird incident, and its dramatic nature excited huge
revulsion. But I think the crowd reaction, however ugly, is
distinctly less evil than, for instance, the pair of IRA gunman who
lay in wait for hours, to assassinate a young woman member of the
RUC or UDR, just the previous evening.


Brendan

Brendan Halpin                    Email: HALPIN@VAX.OXFORD.AC.UK
Nuffield College                  Phone: +44 865 278642 (work)
Oxford OX1 1NF                                   726758 (home)
United Kingdom                    PGP 2.0 key on request