HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 15:16:55 -0400
From:         "Robert sprg0002@tulsajc.bitnet" <SPRG0002@TULSAJC.BITNET>
Subject:      "J"amie "G"

 But in his (yes I remember) case, the G is for gibberish.

 Jamie,

 Do you never tire of twisting other's comments?  Admittedly, you are
 a master of the technique.  I believe you missed your calling.  You
 should have worked for the State Department.  They love guys that can
 talk for hours without making any sense.  Does some college offer a
 course in advanced nonsense?  Do you teach it?

 I need EVIDENCE that you are real, so I can decide whether to laugh at
 your postings or cry because my favorite comedian doesn't exist.

 ---Robert

 "Abortion has saved us from looking at a lot of childish art"
From: 92price@gw.wmich.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Subject: Re: Patriotism
Date: 4 Sep 92 09:57:07 EST
Organization: Western Michigan University

Missy P 2 B writes:
  
> Ironically, many people have died in order to safeguard your right to
> both ridicule them and burn the flag under which they fought.  Not
> to mention your free-speech right to criticize the governmental system
> they dug in their heels to protect.  They may have been right; they
> may have been wrong.  The fact remains that they believed that their
> personal, physical sacrifice was required to protect the families,
> friends, and ideals they held dear.
> We do them no honor, nor ourselves elevate, by trivializing their
> lives and their deaths.

I really don't care a lot about a bunch of dead bullet-heads, they're dead.
I would support great improvements in the VA hospitals, as I don't believe that
our goverment does enough to help our veterans, victims of our own country's
war-mongering.  This is because I care about the welfare of people.  However, I
don't _owe_ them _anything_, I didn't ask them to go.  I'm not going to stand
and salute as they parade by, waving their guns and riding their death machines.
And when people burn the flag, they are expressing that they feel that the
imperialism of our government (the ones who make the decisions as opposed to
the cattle who actually fight) has desecrated the ideals for which this country
stands for, thereby desecrating the flag and requiring its burning (the normal
procedure when a flag gets desecrated).

And you are correct, when I stated that conservatives in general have a
"war-bent hive mentality", this clearly does not apply to Missy.  She is
certainly an exception to the rule, not being at all "war-bent."

As for guns be protected by the constitution, and drugs not being protected, I
believe the constitution says something about protecting all rights not
previously mentioned or something, in like amendmant number ten or so.  Which
was why they needed an amendment for alcohol prohibition and why the whole drug
war/reefer madness thing is unconstitutional to begin with.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Don't let them immanentize the Eschaton!"           |         Kai Alexis Price
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Organization: Computer Science Department,  Stanford University.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 11:11:22 -0700
From:         Andy Freeman <andy@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject:      Re: democratic platform

>According to Consumer Reports, by reducing administrative overhead in using
>a single payer system, reducing the number of unneeded procedures, and
>eliminating fraud, enough money would be saved to give everybody health care.
>The short answer is it won't cost any more than it does now.

The short answer assumes too much; it assumes that a single payer
system will do what it "can" do, and ignores a significant diseconomy
of scale.

A single payer system need not reduce adminstrative overhead at all
and can easily increase it because it must do everything that a set of
smaller payers with the same policy must do, plus it has to manage a
larger organization.  It ends up with more levels of managers
mananging managers.

Note that a single payer system has FEWER pressure points and they're
further from their clients.  Moreover, political systems are also
subject to far more political pressure.

The supposed savings from "eliminating unnecessary procedures" won't
happen.  Those procedures happen because of liability protection,
customer demand, "MDs know they can get away with it", and
incompetence.  Payer system changes don't affect these causes and to
the extent customers pay less, they'll demand more.  EFFECTIVE
overhead can have some effect, but that is neither implied by, or
depends on, a single payer system.

There's nothing stopping someone from setting up a low-overhead system
and seeing how things work.  In fact, I'd argue that there's a moral
obligation to do so for those people who believe it is possible.

-andy

ps - On the "no one asked me the right question" front, Clinton just
admitted that he's known for a long time about his now-dead uncle's
efforts to keep Willie out of Vietnam.  Oops.
--
UUCP:    {arpa gateways, sun, decwrl, uunet, rutgers}!cs.stanford.edu!andy
ARPA:    andy@cs.stanford.edu
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 09:01:07 EDT
From:         K=A*T <MEC038@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Jamie's Response to my Deadly Force post
              25 Aug 1992 17:37:07 EDT from <MEC038@UKCC.UKY.EDU>

Oops!  That was supposed to read:

         "less significant"
    or
         "more insignificant"

--KAT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
From: jwales@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (jimmy donal wales)
Subject: Re: (no subject given)
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 19:07:40 GMT


> I probably
> have less respect for the twisted remnant of government, with which we are
> saddled, than anyone on this list.

I doubt it.  I think that our current government is filled with a
bunch of scum-sucking weenies.  I think that BOTH major parties are
corrupt and intellectually bankrupt.  I only regret that it seems that
we are NOT on the verge of any kind of constitutional crisis which might
change things... we seem destined to muddle along stupidly into the
next century.

--Jimbo


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Date:         Tue, 25 Aug 1992 21:09:55 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Deadly Force, We Need Help, Justice??

Carl:

While I respect your opinion about the use of deadly force, none
of this is getting us anywhere.  We don't need to know what
people *think* the law should be, based on gut instinct.
What we are trying to ascertain is "What does the law actually
*say.*?"

Thanks.

--Missy P 2 B
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Sat, 29 Aug 1992 00:28:10 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: my last word on this EVER
              28 Aug 1992 15:23:39 EST from <IQTI400@INDYCMS.IUPUI.EDU>

Speaking of butter knives:

Who remembers who said this, and in what context?

"It was *only* a butter knife"

Extra points for remembering who it was said *to*.

--Missy P 2 B (trying to get something more lighthearted going on
  this inexpressably depressing list.)
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Date:         Mon, 31 Aug 1992 15:58:00 EDT
From:         Travis Kidd <TKIDD@CLEMSON.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Rape as violence or sex.

On Mon, 31 Aug 1992 13:28:02 EST Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET> said:
> Richard:
>
> You can think or read whatever you like, but your comments are common
> among people who think they can understand something they have never
> experienced.  No book can explain rape.  No fancy psychological
> theory can override the experiential fact that rapists and rape
> victims know that rape and sex have very little to do with each other.
>
> I'm not going to talk about this any more.
>
> --Missy P 2 B

I don't mean to meddle in your private life, and, of course, you don't
have to answer, but have you been raped?  Or someone you are close to?
Just wanting to know from whom these comments are coming.
-Travis
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 16:06:29 EST
From:         STEVE FULTZ <IGJF400@INDYCMS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Bill in Buffalo
              26 Aug 1992 04:29:00 GMT from <psyrobtw@UBVMSB.CC. BUFFALO.EDU>

The Clintion bus tour is often late because of extra stops, this is not
an uncommon problem when campaigning this way.  In the C-SPAN coverage
of the bus tour it was mention that the Clintion campaign tried to
build in extra time but were still delayed by unplanned stops.

I think that the bus trips an excellent way to campaign this year.  It
allows for a lot more of the smaller press to cover the campaign.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 23:54:00 EST
From:         Tyrone Slothrop <199561011@VUVAXCOM.BITNET>
Subject:      RE: RE:Re: Changing topic??

From:         HOUSSAH5@EGAUCACS.BITNET
Subject:      RE:Re: Changing topic??

In his posting Andy says:
> The situation in Bosnia is different.....
>They are a group of soldiers carrying guns, not wearing uniforms,...
>There are no equipment or installations to attack....


With all respect to your point of view, I think that there is something
that you are overlooking. When the international forces wanted to push
Irakis out of Kuwait, they did not start by hitting Iraki forces occupying
Kuwait. Their prime action were air raids over Baghdad, Irak.
Using the same philosophy, stopping the Bosnian massacre would require
(at least as a first stage) raiding Serbia, not Bosnia.
This would hit supplies and fortifications without which Serbian forces
in Bosnia cannot survive and will eventually have to withdraw. Let's face
it, if the US and international community want to kick Serbs out of
Bosnia, they have all the power of doing so with minimal casualties.
The fact is that they think that this time, there is nothing worth moving
for...

-Gilbert

        actually, that was the problem with the way that the war in
        iraq was waged: instead of targetting the military installations
        that we claimed that we were combatting, we first began by
        bombing baghdad, which, as a city, is filled with civilians.
        it was wrong when we did it to dresden; i don't see how it can
        be right in another situation.

        if a similar tactic is used in serbia, the people who will die
        will not be the ones carrying out the monstrosities in bosnia
        (and if you think that the serbs are the only ones doing all this
        you are sorely mistaken: they are just the most successful at it),
        it will be my relatives, the civilians in north and central serbia,
        who will suffer and die.  it will be the people who are NOT involved
        in the conflict, or who have been protesting it, or who have fled
        bosnia for a safe haven, and have been denied access to other
        countries, but were accepted by the serbs in serbia who thing that
        the serbs in bosnia are committing an atrocity.

        brni
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 19:42:00 EDT
From:         "Peter J. Schledorn" <UNCPJS@UNC.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: credit where credit is due

> Kerry
> who can provide anyone interested with her take on the child-care tax
> credit :)

Consider yourself nudged.   :-)

Best,
Peter
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Sun, 30 Aug 1992 19:47:10 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Human Life Amendment

Hi all:

I was watching one of the Sunday newstalk shows, and Dan Quayle was
being interviewed.  The interviewer was asking about the administration's
position on abortion.  Quayle kept saying that he and Bush want
people to think about abortion, to reflect on it, to come to terms
with the importance of the action.  The interviewer kept saying,
"but you support a Human Life Amendment."

I don't understand why anyone has problems with the idea of a Human
Life Amendment.  Part of the design of the amendment process is to
make it very very difficult to get one actually passed.  In the
process, the national debate is engaged, the people have an
opportunity to voice their opinions, and the will of the majority
eventually becomes the law of the land.

What's wrong with that?

--Missy P 2 B
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Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1992 00:34:19 -0500
From:         "VALENTINE M. SMITH" <CDELL@UMKCVAX1.BITNET>
Subject:      Tajikistan, Georgia, Bosnia and ..., (#765)
Comments: To: val-l@ucf1vm.BITNET, jwales@iubvm.BITNET, olsenj@stolaf.edu,
              shlyakhter@huhepl.harvard.edu, kousen@rayleigh.res.utc.com,
              christic@igc.org, blank@physics.ucla.edu,
              76701.103@compuserve.com

Lithuania-

Russia cut natural gas shipments to this state by 55% today,
according to RFE/RL, cutting deeply into the 7 million cubic meters
per day Lithuania had been getting.

Tatarstan-

RFE/RL reported vast new coal deposits have been found here, along
with more oil, probably giving further impetus, from an economic
point of view, to the already extant separatist movement in this
area.

Georgia-

Fighting was intense in the Abkhaz region today, CNN reported,
despite the signing of a ceasefire on 29 August according to today's
RFE/RL report. 25-35 Georgian troops were reported killed by the CNN
report, with 150 wounded, while RFE/RL reported that an unidentified
ship in the Black Sea allegedly fired on Georgian troops in the city
of Gagra, "heavily wounding" a number of soldiers.. Georgia claimed
this was a Russian ship, while the Russians denied that they had any
ships in the region. The ceasefire was to go into effect 31 August,
but today's fighting belied that reality. Yeltsin and Shevardnadze
are to meet on 3 September to discuss the Abkhazia fighting.

Tajikistan-

"Hundreds" of protestors reportedly stormed the Presidential palace,
allegedly taking "several" hostages, according to both NPR and CNN,
including at least two Deputy Prime Ministers. This seems to be the
culmination of a few weeks of disturbances  at Dushanbe over the
"Communist" leadership of the country.

Germany-

A Holocaust statue, I believe in Berlin, had its base badly damaged
by a bomb earlier today. Over 20 acts of anti-foreign violence
occurred in Germany over the weekend, NPR reported, while Jewish
leaders warned that the violence could get worse.

Bosnia-

A mass grave has been discovered at Mostar with 200 bodies, RFE/RL
reports Reuters reporting. The victims were supposedly mostly
Muslims, but also a "few Croats." R. Karadzic, the Bosnian Serb
leader, claims the Croats did this, while Croat and Muslim leaders
claim "Serb irregulars" did the killing.

Heavy fighting continues at Sarajevo, with people killed today by a
rocket attack on a funeral, and 15 had been killed the day before in
an alleged Serb attack on a marketplace.


The fighting goes on, and spreads to more places. The dividing up and
splitting up continues, and is now assured to be part of the
international scene until at least 1 January, 1993, when the
Czecho-Slovak breakup officially occurs. The changes continue, and
show no signs of abating in the near future. VMS
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Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 09:54:01 -0500
From:         ANTHLAL@UMNACVX.BITNET
Subject:      falling off the culturally elite pedestal with a thud...

...i hereby agree with kerry stephenson on the disastrous state of affairs
in the manual-writing department, and refer you all to the quite-funny
diatribe on said topic in the distressing pop-philosophy book
_zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance_, written by minneapolitan
robert pirsig.
no one who reads this book can be amongst the culturally elite, can they?
see?  i'm not one of those folks.  i eat meat!  i read pop philosophy!
i even read pop physics!  i like rc cola!  i have seen every episode of
both doctor who and the partridge family!

so, um, now, where can i get a copy of that garth brooks album?

            ---anneliese "i use cliff notes *with* the book itself!  right." l.
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Date:         Tue, 25 Aug 1992 20:39:32 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: women in the military
              25 Aug 1992 13:31:51 -0400 from <KILBURN@WVSVAX.WVNET.EDU>

Kerry:

I also thought that Israel used women in combat.  However, in watching
the hearings, I was disabused of that notion.  Israel has never
officially used women in combat positions (there was an incident
during the 6-day war in which some women were essentially stuck
in an undefended position and they have been considered historically
as having been in combat positions, but they were never so assigned
and it is against Israeli policy to do so.)  One of the panel members,
knowing he would be testifying, asked the female general in command
of female troops in Israel whether she thought it would be a good idea
for the US to put women into combat positions.  She said no.  She said
she wouldn't do it in Israel.  In fact, she said, "this country would
never stand for that."

Just setting the record straight.

--Missy P 2 B
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Date:         Tue, 25 Aug 1992 16:21:24 GMT+4
From:         Mary Ellen Foster <MARYELEN@HFX001.NS.ISTC.CA>
Subject:      Re: Say What??!?
Comments: To: POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

    [stuff deleted...]

> Why does this sort of thing happen anywhere?  I never thought about
> it occurring anywhere else in the US, but it happened in south
> Louisiana to my grand parents for speaking French.
>
> When will people learn to at least tolerate differences even if they
> can't be enjoyed.
>
    [more stuff deleted...]

This sort of thing (linguistic intolerance) is still alive and well
up here in Canada. There is a law in Quebec which prohibits the usage
of any language other than French on commercial signs (I am not from
Quebec, don't flame if I am inaccurate!), and the Quebeckers (I find)
are extremely defensive about their language and culture. I am from
Nova Scotia, which is almost unilingually English (at least in
Halifax where I live), but I have no problem with people speaking
other languages. I don't think that my identity as an anglophone Nova
Scotian can possibly be threatened by being around people from other
cultures!



Mary Ellen Foster
MARYELEN @ hfx001.ns.istc.ca
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Date:         Mon, 31 Aug 1992 10:52:36 -0400
From:         SPRG0002@TULSAJC.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Thou shalt not ( ? )

 *** Resending note of 08/29/92 12:35


 >If I remember correctly, Missy doesn't think that Christians need to
 >take actions to bring about the Second Coming.  Robert, apparently,
 >thinks that it is some kind of moral duty to bring about Armageddon.

 >> How can the Second Coming be fulfilled without Armagaeddon?

 Not at all.  My question to Missy was based upon her belief that she
 cannot use deadly force.  I asked her if she could reconcile this belief
 with the examples of deadly force throughout scripture, both past and
 future.  Specifically I referenced Armageddon (yes I spelled it wrong
 last time).  Christ will lead an army to destroy his enemies.  I see no
 problem or contradiction with using deadly force in self defense.

 ---Robert
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Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1992 23:03:16 EST
From:         macphil <IQTI400@INDYCMS.IUPUI.EDU>
Subject:      Fired for an abortion...
Comments: To: politics <politics@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu>

Chicago Tribune, Friday, August 28, 1992. p 3:

Wayne, Mich. -- A suburban Detroit watiress was awarded $30'000 plus
interest after a six-member jury agreed she had been fired because she
had an abortion.  The jury made the award Wednesday in a suit brought
by Rosemary Schambers, 32, of Taylor, Mich., who lost her job from
Jonathon's Family Restaurant in Wayne in September 1990.  At the time,
Schambers, who had worked at the restaurant for 10 months, was making
$2.75 an hour, plus tips.  In her suit in 29th District Court, Schambers
said she lost her job after a manager warned her that if she went through
with the abortion she would be fired.  The attorney for the
restaurant said he would appeal.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The lesser of two evils is still evil." - Winston Churchill

MacPhil / iqti400@indycms.bitnet / iqti400@indycms.iupui.edu
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Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 14:35:27 BST
From:         Dunstan_Vavasour <dunstan@GEC-EPL.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: new topic: unrest in germany
Comments: To: POLITICS <POLITICS@OHSTVMA.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>

Fred:
>The european members of the group often comment on lack of global issues
>on this list and the concentration on US concerns. That is because, as
>all europeans know, americans are self-centered and egotistical.

I didn't say that ...

>What is the story behind the recent outbreaks of violence in Germany?
>What is their government doing to control the rioting? How long has this
>been going on? Is it limited primarily to the under 30 crowd or are
>other age groups involved.

There are two parts of Germany. West Germany and "Dort Druben" (over
there). IMHO, those in the West regard the East Germans very much like
immigrants and, as with any mass immigration, there is a backlash.
However, I would be interested in the views of anyone nearer to the scene.

>Also, what do list members think about punishment for youth? I saw a
>recent cbs news article that car theft is epidemic on the east coast and
>that many of the perpatrators are under 14 years of age. The police see
>the problem as being that the joy riders are immediately released with
                               ^^^^^^^^^^
This term glamorises what is, quite simply, stealing a car and driving
it in such a fashion as to endanger lives. Joy riding is not a helpful
term.

>no punishment for their actions. I would think that there are other
>social considerations such as lack of youth activities.

I see. I'm bored so I'm going to go and rob a booze shop.

>
>fred


Dunstan
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