From: cmort@NCoast.ORG (Christopher Morton)
Subject: Re: Death Penalty, for or against?
Reply-To: cmort@ncoast.org (Christopher Morton)
Organization: North Coast Public Access *NIX, Cleveland, OH
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 10:18:21 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.african.american

As quoted from <HANS.92Oct8112828@ravn.iesd.auc.dk> by hans@iesd.auc.dk (Hans Huttel):

> 
> In article <BvrtrA.JI4@NCoast.ORG> by cmort@NCoast.ORG (Christopher
> Morton) wrote:
> 
> > I said and reiterate that there are some people who are just EVIL.
> > You may not want to admit this, but it is nevertheless true.  Of
> > course you may be able to rationalize the activities of a Klaus Barbie
> > or a Charles Manson....
> 
> Of course I think murder is appalling! It is obvious to me that
> Cristopher Morton has not understood my argument. He does not deal
> with cause [what causes the existence of crime?] but only with effect
> [there are mass murderers and rapists; you can get killed in prison].

I have understood your argument.  I just don't agree with it.  What you refuse
to accept is that some crimes HAVE no rational explanation.  What was Alton
Coleman's "reason" for becoming a child molestor/killer?  If somebody else has
these "reasons", are they entitled to become child killers too?

> His only answer seems to be: There are criminals, so we must do away
> with them. 

There are MURDERERS.  Some of them should be done away with.

> Still, I see the following as an attempt at some sort of explanation
> of the existence of crime:
> 
> > WITNESSES?  Other non-fatal victims?  Do you allow for proof AT ALL?  Your 
> > argument seems a nonsequitor.  WHY are some people CRIMINALS?
> > Perhaps because they commit EVIL acts, called CRIMES? 
> 
> So there are at least two different explanations:
> 
> a) People commit crimes because of their nature (criminals are
>    criminals simply because they inherently evil)

Some of them are.  You seem unwilling to concede this.

> b) People commit crimes because of a number of different factors. 

It's still no reason to allow some of them to continue to kill... unless you're
allowing them such factors as an excuse.

> The first explanation seems to be the one that Christopher Morton
> subscribes to; I find it very simplistic. If it were true, then we
> would reach the absurd conclusion that African-Americans are the most
> evil people in the United States!

Your analysis (which hardly deserves the term) is simplistic in the extreme.
Most Black people do not kidnap children.  Most do not rape them.  Most do not
kill them.  If you have statistical evidence to the contrary, please post it.

> Moreover, it is certainly not a consequence of the second explanation
> that one should condone crime, nor does it imply that criminals should
> not be punished.

Is allowing those who have killed before to kill again, REALLY punishment?

> > If you want to abolish the death penalty because it can be use for political
> > purposes, why not imprisonment too?  Haven't you ever heard of
> > Andrei Sakharov or Aung San Syuu Ki.
> 
> I certainly have. I am a member of Amnesty International. 

Good, now answer the question.  Do their cases justify and abolition of 
imprisonment?

> > Never, since it isn't true.  What you are REALLY saying is that it doesn't 
> > solve ALL problems.  You haven't provided an alternative that does,
> > and won't. Killing a murderer stops him from killing again,
> > ABSOLUTELY.  Once AGAIN, if you have evidence to the contrary, please
> > present it.  Perhaps Clive Barker can turn it into a novel....
> 
> I cannot single-handedly provide everyone with a fair and just penal
> system. What I _can_ do, however, is point out that capital punishment
> does not solve anything; it can certainly only make things worse. 

Once AGAIN, you aren't REALLY saying that it doesn't solve ANY problem (you
certainly have dodged the murder recidivism issue), but rather that it doesn't
solve EVERY problem.  You have yet to produce any evidence to support EITHER
contention.  Instead you've merely repeated an unsupported claim.  How about
justifying it if you really think it's true?

> I do not want this thread to degenerate into a shouting contest.

That would be impossible.  I don't have a sound board.... :)

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