From: farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf)
Subject: Re: Adults, Children and sex
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 92 23:52:20 GMT

In article <1992Aug30.223213.1519@cbnewsc.cb.att.com> chapin@cbnewsc.cb.att.com ( Tom Chapin ) writes:
>ljf writes:
>>The problem I'm having with what you're saying is that you do seem to
>>think that an adult approaching any child at any age is permissible.
>>
>>Perhaps if you'd be more explicit as to what you think is permissible
>>you'd be better understood.
>
>I don't know when you began following this, but I never stated or
>implied at any time that any adult should ever approach a child for
>sex.  I merely joined with others to give examples where adults did
>in fact approach a child for sex without harm coming to the child,
>in refutation of the claim that such advances are inevitably harmful,
>traumatic, and coercive.  
>
>I believe those making that false claim are promoting an unhealthy
>view of sexuality which promotes the very child abuse they claim to
>be opposing, by making it difficult for children to approach parents
>for even the most abstract discussions of important sexual issues
>without getting a guilt-laden, guilt-inducing response.

What false claim are you talking about?  The claim that all sex
between an adult and a five year old is bad?  The claim that all
"children" under the age of 18 are harmed by being approached
sexually?  (I've hardly claimed that since I've posted of being asked
for sex when I was 11, saying no, and the no being respected.)

>As for my own opinions regarding "what is permissable," I believe
>that in any situation where a clear power differential exists and
>great harm is possible for the weaker party, the weaker party should
>be the one to initiate such activities.  

This sounds reasonable to me.  So, when are children usually the
stronger party wrt an adult?  

>A weakness of my position is that I tend to see fewer power
>differentials than some (such as certain feminists), since the whole
>purpose of society is to provide means to equalize such
>differentials.  So it would, in my opinion, be difficult to
>identify areas where a clear differential exists.

IMO, any child under the age of 10 or so is definitely the weaker
party wrt an adult. 

>I also see difficulties caused by those with ostensible weakness
>but genuine power to still oppress and coerce others.  I do know of
>an act of rape from my childhood where two children age ten or under
>raped an older teenage babysitter by threatening to make a false
>accusation of child molestation against her.  Age does not
>guarantee that one is an oppressor, nor is youth and physical
>weakness a guarantee that one will not commit acts of coercion.

How many cases like that exist?  This seems more in keeping with a
"man bites dog" approach than a reasonable approach to child-adult
sex.

>I myself can give no easy answers as to when sexuality is non-
>coercive and permissible, and when it is coercive and not
>permissible.  All easy categories are false, and every situation
>must be judged on its merits.  

Hmmm....  So, a case of a 4 year old and an adult having oral sex,
that is a situation where it is difficult to judge, a not-easy
situation?

This is where I'm really having problems with you.  As I've said
frequently in the past few days, I know men who had positive sexual
experiences with adults when they were 11, 12, and 13.  I know of no
one who had a positive sexual experience with an adult when s/he was 4
or 5.  For you to say that sex between an adult and a 4 year old is an
easy-so-false catagory amazes me.

Xref: sparky soc.men:15538 soc.women:15835 soc.penpals:1949