From: makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Subject: Re: Lehi and nazies
Summary: Brendan continues to hang himself
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 16:01:31 GMT

In article <1992Sep7.025215.27921@cs.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:

# In article 23938@ennews.eas.asu.edu, makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:

# >In article <bdm.715766379@cs.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:

# ># makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:

# ># >In article <1992Sep3.084932.5496@cs.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:

# ># ># In article 26043@ennews.eas.asu.edu, makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:

# ># ># >In article <1992Sep2.045114.10284@cs.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:
 
# ># ># ># Lehi had no love of the Germans.  They believed that the Nazis would
# ># ># ># win the war and that the Nazi flavour of anti-semitism was going to
# ># ># ># be the trend for a long time.  More interestingly, they believed
# ># ># ># that anti-semitism could not be fought because it was JUSTIFIED; 
# ># ># ># it was reasonable for non-Jews to hate Jews because after all the
# ># ># ># Jews were the Chosen People and therefore superior.
 
# ># ># >	I have a lot of problems with this, and Brendan I believe you owe
# ># ># >lots of peaople an apology for that insulting remark.  I consider the
# ># ># >Jews (me included) to be the chosen people.  I do NOT consider myself
# ># ># >(or any other Jew) superior.  Even if I did, that might make
# ># ># >anti-semitism a predictable response (not that it would make it, just
# ># ># >that it might), but not a JUSTIFIED response.
 
# ># ># >	Just to let you know, it was this one paragraph that caused me to
# ># ># >respond.  The use of 'JUSTIFIED' is disgusting to say the least.
 
# ># ># I expected that you wouldn't like it.  However, you are asking me to
# ># ># apologise for the beliefs of Stern, which is rather bizarre.  What
# ># ># I wrote is properly parsed "they [Lehi] believed ... it was justified".
# ># ># I never said that I believe it was justified, nor do I believe that.
 
# ># ># What I have read about the beliefs of Stern and his buddies are that
# ># ># they belonged to the (hopefully small) subset of Jewish thinkers which
# ># ># regarded the doctrine of Chosenness as a doctrine of superiority.
# ># ># I think it fits their policies and behaviour quite well, but I don't
# ># ># have access to the original source materials that could confirm it.
# ># ># My most recent reading on the subject was the two books by Lenni
# ># ># Brenner, Zionism in the Age of the Dictators and The Iron Wall, but
# ># ># I've read less pointed texts also.
 
# ># >	Quite frankly, if this is in fact not what they believed, I
# ># >consider this reply of yours to also be disgusting.  And considering
# ># >that you post this without the materials handy, I find also
# ># >disgusting.
 
# ># David, You are certainly in a highly disgustable state today.

# >	The only thing that is disgusting is you.  With each of the
# >replies in this thread you have gone a long way with portraying
# >yourself as you continue to spread these disgusting ideas.

# ># I have The Iron Wall with me.

# >	So what?  Why don't you use something authored by one of the
# >individuals in question, where they confirm what they said AND WHY?
 
# Do you think I wouldn't if I could?

	The point is not not of would or could.  It is should or should
not.  Since you cannot, you should not even try.  If you cannot be
exact on this subject, civility calls for you to stay away.  Either
you have no concept of decency, or you do not care.  Which is it?

# ># >	Now, even if your materials do confirm this, it is possible that
# ># >there are inadvertant mistranslations, or considering the way some
# ># >felt (and still do feel) about LEHI, a planned mistranslation.
 
# ># Both are possible.  An unavoidable hazard in amateur historical
# ># research is that one is at the mercy of professionals who misrepresent 
# ># obscure source material.  I try to minimise the effect by reading 
# ># multiple opinions, but that is an imperfect solution.

# >	A better solution would be not to engage in such acts in the first
# >place.  At the very least, but this is not enough, you could have
# >disclaimers all over the place.
 
# I apologise to any readers who thought that my post implied that I had
# personally spoken to former Lehi members or read the original manuscripts
# of their writings.

	I think this paragraph of yours deos more to describe what kind of
person you are than anything else I could say.  You are participating
in a centuries old act of passing along myths which have been used as
a reason for much suffering.  If you did not here it from something
directly related to the subjects in question, you have no business
dealing in it at all.  It is a question of civility, not one of how
can you best be an amateur historian.  That others may have engaged in
this act does not in any way condone your actions.

# ># >	Also, this response of yours does not even go into how
# ># >anti-semitism is justified even if the "superiority" business is
# ># >correct.
 
# ># Well, after flaming me for reporting the words of someone else,
# ># now you want me to analyse them for you.  Ok.  I guess the idea
# ># is that people tend to hate people superior to themselves.
# ># Maybe it's true in some statistical sense, I don't know.
# ># I remember once reading an opinion that this idea helps explain
# ># some of the ill-treatment Christians have meted out to Jews 
# ># over the ages (since the doctrine that the Jews are specifically 
# ># Chosen is a strong theme in Christian thinking also).  I don't
# ># really have an opinion on whether these assessments are correct,
# ># and I don't have enough time to make one.

# >	You are being ridiculous and disgusting here.  Even if what you
# >say above is true, at the most, anti-semitism can be predicatable, but
# >in no way is it JUSTIFIED!
 
# Since I strongly believe that anti-semitism is NOT JUSTIFIED EVER, your
# pathetic attempts to paint me with any other view are much more
# disgusting than anything I have done.

	I am not painting you with any view.  It is a direct quote from
your article.  your attempts to change the subject will not work.

# It appears that you are incapable of elementary logic, such as 
# distinguishing between "A believes X" and "A says that B believes X".
# I don't know how I can help you.

	Try by helping yourself, since you are the one that needs help.
Even if the Jewish subjects in question do believe they were superior
(and it is tempting to say here that if all non Jews are like you
Brendan then those Jews are correct, but I will not) that does not in
any way mean that they felt anti-semitism is justified.  However, you
seem to believe it does.

# ># >	It would seem as though you have been duped by David Palmer.  I

# ># Who?

# >	Right.  He is pretty popular among people with your views in
# >Australia.  In fact, he probably planted them in you.
 
# I honestly don't know who he is.  Maybe one of the National Front 
# crazies who were in the news a decade ago?

	Well here is another name to "refresh" your memory.  Try Simon
Lain".  Both Simon and David Palmer have been prominent in the
Australian news recently from what I understand, as if you did not
know.

# ># >suggest you reconsider and apologize.

# ># No way.  If you don't like the opinions I quote, quote some yourself.

# >	My quoting here is not the issue.  Your behavior is.  I apologize
# >when I am wrong.  It seems you are incapable.
 
# When you show me to be wrong, I will apologise.  Meanwhile, your childish
# tirade will have no effect on my postings.

	Actually, nothing I can do will show you to be more wrong than
your own words already have.  At any rate your ad hominem attacks will
have no effect on me (but they do have one on other's perceptions
of you).
--

David Makowsky
makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu