From: kim@guppy.uucp (Isaac Kim)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.golf
Subject: Re: golf shoes
Date: 25 Dec 1992 02:53:08 GMT
Organization: UC San Diego
NNTP-Posting-Host: guppy.ucsd.edu

In article <2934057893.7.p00168@psilink.com> "James F. Tims" <p00168@psilink.com> writes:>>DATE:   21 Dec 92 06:31:23 GMT
=>>FROM:   Isaac Kim <kim@guppy.uucp>
=>>
=>>good with just a pair of tennis shoes.  Golf shoes allow you to get
=>>away with an unbalanced golf swing, which if not corrected will lead
=>>to serious fundamental weight shift problems like swaying too much.
=>
=>What of those of us who have had this problem corrected?  May we wear 
=>golf shoes?  What of the non-purists that would prefer a crutch that 
=>helped them keep their balance?  As for golf shoes allowing one to get 
=>away with an unbalanced swing, I doubt that golf shoes are so grand as 
=>all that -- good, but not that good.

Personally, I don't care if you wear golf shoes or not (as long as
you don't drag your feet and am not playing in front of me).  I was 
just responding to your rather outlandish comment:
 
=>>>Do you need golf shoes?  Absolutely, positively, without a doubt, yes 
=>>>you do.

I disagree with you.  Golf shoes are not necessary to play good
golf.  They are nice when it is wet outside, but in most cases, you can 
get just as good traction with a pair of Nike cross-trainers.

=>>If you play in an area where it rains alot, I would recommend a pair
=>>of waterproof golf shoes.  
=>
=>But if it doesn't rain a lot, I can't have any golf shoes at all, right?
=>And if I do own a pair, I'm not allowed to wear them because it will 
=>screw up my golf swing?  Have I got this right yet?

Again, if you want to wear golf shoes, go ahead.  I don't care.  Just 
please remember to walk carefully all of the time when you are on the 
greens.  If you ever glance down your typical driving range at your 
average golfer trying to improve themselves, I believe the most common 
problems you see are an improper weight shift, or over-swinging.  I 
think if golfers practice with tennis shoes on, they will have a better 
feeling of swinging within themselves and keeping balanced.  I believe 
that in many cases golf shoes allow you to transfer your weight back 
past the inside of your left foot (if you golf right-handed) at the 
top of your backswing - resulting in too much sway.  On the downswing, 
golf shoes also allow you to swing at a tempo that might be too fast, 
resulting in an unbalanced swing, and a poorly hit shot.  I'm not saying 
this happens all the time, but it is something to think about if you 
have weight shift problems or an unbalanced finish.

=>>But here in San Diego, I have played golf
=>>for 6 years in Nike cross-trainer athetic shoes and have had no
=>>problems with traction.  I used to play with Footjoy Classics, but 
=>
=>Not surprising in San Diego.  Track shoes give a lot of support, have a 
=>patterned, thin sole.  A lot like dimpled golf shoes, actually.

Actually, the Nike cross-trainers I have have a very shallow sole pattern
compared to spikeless golf shoes.  The sole is also much softer (almost 
like eraser rubber) than what is found on the spikeless golf shoes I have 
seen.

=>>found them to be a pain because they were not as comfortable as my
=>>tennis shoes.  They also seemed like a high maintenance item because 
=>>you always seem to be cleaning or polishing them, or replacing
=>>spikes. etc.  After I wore out the Footjoys in 4 years, I switched to 
=>
=>Probably the wrong last.  If it was a Stratton, try a Rex, or vice versa.
=>(Maybe that's Staunton, I can't remember.)  I rarely bother to polish my 
=>shoes after the first baptism of mink oil and silicon spray.  I consider 
=>a pair of shoes completely shot after 3 years.  I usually have 3 -- new, 
=>medium, and old.  I wear the old ones at the range.  The medium become 
=>next year's range shoes, and I wear the new ones in tournaments, which 
=>become next year's everyday shoes.  I need 3 pairs.  Pretty disgusting, huh?

I have always had feet problems with shoes with hard soles (like any dress
shoe).  I don't think it was the shoe last.  I even got EEE since I have
very wide feet, but the pain was just because the Footjoy bottom was so 
stiff.  3 pairs, eh.  The golf shoe industry must love guys like you.

=>>just wearing my cross-trainers and did not notice any performance 
=>>difference.  I have managed to maintain a single digit handicap 
=>>after the switch from spikes to tennis shoes.  I even remember a Golf 
=>
=>Sounds like sandbagging to me.  Establish a handicap without the 
=>"crutch" then slip on a pair of golf shoes and go rob everybody at the 
=>point of a nine iron.

As I mentioned before, I switched to the tennis shoes after my Footjoys
wore out 6 years ago and I have not purchased a pair of golf shoes since.  
I think a better definition of sandbagging is someone shooting a 69,
claiming to be a 5.

=>>Digest tip that some PGA pros practice in tennis shoes if they are having
=>>balance and weight shift problems.  If you can hit them just as well
=>
=>Bobby Clampett?  He also was into things like taking the club back in 
=>about 45 stepwise sequences among the other oddities that put him behind 
=>a microphone.  Talk about a great swing gone bad.  My heart goes out to 
=>Bobby, by the way.  I really thought he was going to do something big, 
=>sorta like what Corey Pavin has done, but it didn't work out.

I don't remember who gave the tip.  Bobby Clampett (and later Mac O'Grady)
are two golfer ruined by getting way too mechanical with their golf swings.

=>>>good golf shoes are made for walking.  There is also a stigma attached 
=>>>to golfers who don't wear golf shoes, just for a cultural motivation.  
=>>
=>>This alledged STIGMA is pure BULLSHIT and is what gives golf a bad 
=>>name as an elitest sport among the non-golfers.  Part of what drives 
=>
=>Do you mean that it doesn't exist, or that it shouldn't?  The "alleged" 
=>bullshit does indeed exist. To wit:

This stigma exists, I just wish it didn't exist.

[long story deleted]

=>Now.  Was it because the guy was not wearing shoes?  Partly.  It was
=>the entire picture of someone who was not knowledgeable of the game, who 
=>would step on the putting line, who would move while you were hitting, 
=>that would do a thousand annoying things during the round.  We didn't care 
=>what he shot.  He'll get his weight on the first tee.  He could shoot 
=>anything, just so long as he was a golfer.  He did not appear to be a 
=>golfer.  With a pair of golf shoes he probably would have joined our 
=>group.

DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THAT IF SOMEONE DOES NOT LOOK LIKE A GOLFER
HE OR SHE WILL NOT BEHAVE LIKE A GOLFER.  Wow!  There is a word
for people who judge someone just on their appearence.  It escapes
me right now.  

I can't believe that just because someone has no golf shoes and a 
"bad bag", you assume that they don't have any knowledge about golf
etiquette?

Maybe you have grown in the sheltered life of a country club.
Then again, I'm surprised your country club would allow someone to 
grace their links without golf shoes.  I have spent my golfing
life bashing around the many muni's of Calgary and San Diego.
You run into all sorts who do not "behave" like golfers, but I 
haven't observed a direct correlation between golfing attire 
(ie not wearing golf shoes) and golfing etiquette knowledge.  

I have played with golfers who lack etiquette knowledge because 
they appear to be learning the game.  You know, some of these 
beginners are very well dressed with their Haggar slack and Footjoy 
golf shoes, and some are just wearing a T-shirt, shorts, and 
running shoes.  

I have also played with some very well dressed golfers who seem
to have been playing for a long time, but do alot of things which
can be very annoying.  These include: 
   (1) taking 5 minutes trying to read the break of their putt from 
all four sides ("Geez, I guess since I am dressed like a PGA 
professional, I have the right to behave like a PGA professional.  
I think I need to look at this putt from the other side one more 
time.")
   (2) thinking they are better than they really are ("Geez, I guess
since I am dressed like a Tour pro, I can hit my 3 wood 270 yards
uphill into the wind.  Even though I only hit my drive 200 yards, I 
think I will wait until the group in front of us is off the 12th green 
at Torrey South, before I hit my second shot.  I might reach them 
because you know, I am wearing gold shoes).
   (3) when they do hit a bad shot, they don't replace their divot,
or don't rake the trap, or don't fix their ball marks and generally
become a pain to play with.  They don't watch their ball head into the
woods because they are throwing or repeatingly embedding their club into
the ground.  And then they spend 15 minutes looking for their ball.   
("Hey, I'm dressed like a Tour Pro.  I can act like a baby if I want to.  
It's my right because I'm wearing golf shoes")
   (4) they get tired as the day drags on and it looks like they
are not going to break the course record. ("Geez, I don't understand
why I don't shoot underpar like those Tour pros.  I dress like them,
I play the same equipment as they do, and I'm wearing the same golf
shoes they wear.")  For some reason, they just don't have the strength
to lift their feet on the greens and leave quite a mess of spike marks
for all the lucky golfers behind them.

Now, I have also played with many golfer like myself who don't wear 
golf shoes and have a beat-up bag.  They play quickly and courteously
and sometimes they play pretty damd well.

I think it is sad that you refuse to play with someone who doesn't
wear golf shoes, because you might miss your chance to meet someone 
who you might actually enjoy playing with.  Instead, you select someone
who does wear gold shoes and who might behave like the PGA Tour 
wan-a-be described above.

I also get the feeling that you don't like to play with "beginners" who
are just learning about golf etiquette.  Maybe you can avoid them at your 
club.  At your typical muni, you have no choice who you play with.  
Sometimes, beginners can be a pain to play with.  However, most beginners, 
whether they are wearing golf shoes or not, do want to learn the proper 
way to behave on the golf course and really appreciate any help you can 
give them (It is kind of tough explaining to someone for the first time 
that you have to keep track of everybody's ball on the green, so you don't 
step in their line).  If you patiently explain to them the proper 
etiquette and rules, you are not only doing them a favor, but you are also 
doing a favor to all of their future golf partners.  Remember, you were 
a beginner at one time and someone had to put up with you during your 
learning period. 

=>Had it been you, you probably wouldn't have wanted to play with us, 
=>though, what with our stinking elitist golf shoes and golf shirts and all.
=>May have been just as well.  Could have cost you a fortune.  

Is this because you shoot 69's with your '5' handicap?  Thanks for the
warning.  I'll make sure to ask for a few extra strokes.  As long as 
you guys move along quickly and don't mind it when I take all of your 
money, I would be perfectly happy to play with your group.

=>Which brings to mind another point...people that don't wear golf shoes 
=>rarely play for stakes.  Just an observation covering almost 40 year of 
=>playing.

Hey Nassau and Press are my middle names.  You should play more golf 
with us common folk on the many muni's of the world.  You will find 
plenty of players wanting to take your money.

=>>potential new golfers away from the sport is this IMAGE thing that 
=>>you have to buy all of these things to look like a golfer before you
=>>can try the sport.  Nothing gives me more pleasure than joining up 
=>>with some guy who thinks he is a good golfer because he dresses like 
=>>a PGA golf professional.  This "neat guy" is usually wearing his nice 
=>
=>Argh.  We can barely support 50 million golfers worldwide, already.  What 
=>makes you think I want the course to be overrun with egalitarian 
=>idealists wearing bodyshirts?  (This is called a straw man in logical

I guess we should keep golf only for those who conform.  BTW does
your club allow minorities or women?
 
=>debate, by the way. Just thought I'd let you know that I have no 
=>intention of remaining rational at this point, in keeping with the tone
=>of the following rant.)  
=>
=>>FootJoy Classic golf shoes, his polyester Hagger golf slacks which are
=>>a little too high and tight around the waist, and some golf shirt with
=>>a PGA West or Pebble Beach crest.  He also usually has a huge tour leather
=>>bag which he pulls or has mounted in the golf cart, which are filled 
=>>with graphite shafted Ping Zings and Big Bertha woods.  I guess I normally
=>>look like that kid in the Top Flite commercials (only 20 years older and
=>>I don't have a band-aid holding the whipping down on my driver).  I
=>>sometimes get that disapproving "you have a stigma attached to you
=>>since you aren't wearin golf shoes" look.  I just laugh at him and 
=>>usually go on to whip his butt on the golf course.
=>>
=>I guess it's sort of like an addiction.  First the golf shoes, then the 
=>polyester pants, then, curtains, the tour golf bag.  Are Haggers more 
=>addictive than say, Corbins?  What if the guy is just rich?  He can buy 
=>any kind of equipment he likes, so why would he play with shit for 
=>equipment?  Why is not possible to have bad taste in pants and an 
=>expensive set of clubs while maintaining humble perceptions of one's 
=>playing ability.  The word "judgmental" springs to the lips.

Thats the word I was looking for before.  Thanks. 
              
Again, if you are rich, go ahead and buy what ever you want.  I 
personally don't care if you look kind of silly with those canary
yellow polyester slacks.  Go ahead and buy the most expensive 
equipment.  My friends in the golf biz will thank you.  I never
said you had to play with crappy equipment.  I am still a graduate
student with limited funds, but do realize that there is a difference 
between good and bad equipment up to a point.

Again, spend away if want to, but just don't think or act you are 
better then the rest of us.  And please don't be so "judgemental"
with golfers who don't look like golfers. 

=>>When I went home to Calgary last summer, I played a few rounds in the 
=>>rain and found that slipage was not that much of a problem in my tennis
=>>shoes.  
=>
=>But it was a problem.

But is was not enough of a problem to warrant buying golf shoes.

=>>I really think that after playing in tennis shoes for so long, 
=>>I do have better balance in my swing.  As well, your tempo is a little
=>>better because if you swing too hard, you end up slipping away.  The 
=>
=>Without golf shoes, I can't swing hard enough without slipping.  I have 
=>to swing like a sissy without spikes.  True, I don't need them for short 
=>irons, but when I have to carry the corner of the dogleg, I want spikes.
 
You can maintain a good firm tempo without spikes and still hit it
a very long way.  I know that I am capable of swing harder while still
not slipping wearing my cross-trainers, but I have learned that this
faster tempo generally does not add distance but does add accuracy
problems.  In the past, I would try to swing as hard as a could 
(actually getting air time according to my golf partners).  I would still
manage to to maintain a balanced finish (see what happens when you 
practice and play without spikes) only to watch the ball sail in an
undesirable direction.  Now, when faced with a long shot (ie cutting 
that dogleg), I am always trying to find a swing thought to slow down 
the tempo to counteract that natural "I need to jump on this" instinct.  
It still amazes me, but the more I try to slow it down  and swing smooth 
at it, the farther I can hit it.  You are going to love this, but my most 
recent swing thought to slow down the tempo came after watching a hockey 
game.  I imagine I am at center ice with my tennis shoes and gold ball tee
up.  You really have to swing at it slowly and smoothly to avoid slipping 
and falling on your face.

=>>only problem was that my feet were soaked.  Waterproof shoes would have
=>>been nice. 
=>
=>So why don't you wear golf shoes?  Afraid somebody might think you're a 
=>golfer or afraid of ruining your balance?

Because I found out that I just don't need them to play good golf.
I grew up playing golf in tennis shoes in Calgary (where is can get very
wet at times).  When I moved to San Diego, I thought I would buy my 
first real pair of golf shoes.  Even though I was a graduate student
with very limited funds, I thought it would be worth it to drop the 
$100 on a pair of Footjoy Classics because this is The shoe all the
PGA Tour pros play in.  I remember hearing about the wonders of golf 
shoes and how they were supppose to really improve your game.  
At the time, I was shooting in the low 80's.  I thought all I had to 
do was step into them, and then I would go shoot 70.  Well, you know
my game did not improve that dramatically.  It improved slowly, but
just because I could play year round in San Diego.  I did notice that
the times I did play in just my tennis shoes, I would play just as well.
So when my Footjoys finally broke down, I just didn't bother to pick
up another pair.  The same thing happened with me and the golf glove.
In the past, I would always wear a golf glove.  But, there were times
when I would forget to buy a new one and just play without a glove.
I found I could play just as well without the glove (you just have to
keep your grips clean).  I glad to see Fred Couples feel the same way.
Now, if he would just stop wearing those clunky golf shoes.

I have to admit that many of my golf purchase decisions are based on the
fact that I don't have very much money as a graduate student.  I really
look forward to the day I do get a well paying job, so I can buy a
new Jones carry bag, new Hogan blades (my present grooves are getting 
pretty worn down), and maybe Maxfli balata golf balls for every round.
But I will not buy golf shoes, because they are just not necessary.  

=>>>As for your 110-115, I think a good pair of shoes could actually trim a 
=>>>few shots off that, since a just a few slips could account for quite a 
=>>>few shots during the course of a round.  
=>>
=>>If you are shooting 110-115, that $100 spent on golf shoes
=>>would be much better spent on some good golf lessons.  
=>
=>Just what is that single-digit?  I'm a 3 now, after that last 69.  Just 
=>wondering what could possibly inspire such confidence.

I had the 'cap down to 5 when I was playing alot, but since I have been
franticly trying to finish my thesis these last few years, it has
probably risen to 8 or 9.

Last time I was home for the summer, I entered this golf 
tournament at a course I was pretty familiar with.  I had the putter
rolling very well that day and shot a 72, which won low gross.  
Everybody was so amazed that I did this without wearing golf shoes
or a glove.  I think I saw a few of them sneak out to the range 
afterwards to try swinging without the golf shoes.

>
>  ,...,.,,
> /666;    ',    jim tims
>////;    _~ -   p00168@psilink.com
>(/@/----0-~-0
> ;'  . `` ~ \'
>  , `    ' , >
>;;|\..((   -C---->>  The first thing the pro would suggest is a 
>  | >-  `.__),;;     good pair of golf shoes.  Lighten up, son.

I would hope the first thing a pro would suggest is to learn a
proper grip, stance, posture, takeaway, weight transfer, position
at the top, transition to downswing, head and body position at 
impact, tempo and finish.  Unless he is in it for the quick buck.

Jim, me thinks you need to lighten up as well.

Happy Holidays to all,
Isaac (kim@bull.ucsd.edu)