HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.europe,soc.history
Subject: ALT.ETHNIC.WAR
Date: 14 Aug 92 20:36:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Invention Factory's BBS - New York City, NY - 212-274-1243v.32bis
Reply-To: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 


JB>I stronly encourage the participants of this widely cross-posted
JB>thread to create the proposed group (see subject line), and take
their
JB>war there.


   I agree 100%. I have many times tied to reply to Mr. Mutlu's lies by
 posting to the appropriate boards ONLY. Unfortunately, Mr Mutlu then
 proceeded to counter-attack, by posting mutilated and mis-represented
 portions of my mailings to ALL gourps involved, even those that never
 had a chance to see the full text of my messages.

   The only solution is for all the readers of the affected groups to
 complain LOUDLY to their administrators. Mr Mutlu's cross-posting
 tactics clearly violate USENET guidelines.

Michael.

---
 . SLMR 2.1a . On a clear disk you can seek forever
                                                                                        
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Subject: Re: Lehi and nazies
Organization: Australian National University
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 14:24:33 GMT

bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein) writes:
>In a previous article, hallam@zeus02.desy.de (Phillip M. Hallam-Baker) says:

>>Shamirs actions in offering to aid the NAZIs who were busy perfecting
>>methods of murdering Jews is hardly consistent with the goal of "saving
>>Jewish lives". It is however entirely consistent with the theory that
>>Shamir was only interested in forming a dictatorial state with himself
>>as leader. 

>Let's get real here.  Shamir wasn't offering aid;  he was trying to deal
>with them in order to save Jewish lives.  There's a significant difference,
>which you are totally ignoring.

Enough is enough!  If you have never read the offer OF ACTIVE HELP
that Lehi made to the Nazis, why are you making a fool of yourself
by pontificating about it?  If you _have_ read it, why are you lying?

Brendan.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Subject: Re: BILL CLINTON ON ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE
Reply-To: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 21:20:08 GMT


In a previous article, nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss) says:>
>I think some body asked a PLO official about the charter and the answer
>was that the previous charter has been cancelled.

A sterling example of the "dependability" of Arafat.  First of all, he
never said it was cancelled.  Second of all, it wasn't.  Third of all, what
would you say if, in response to a newsman's question about the Bill of
Rights President Bush said it was "caduc?"

> Why do you think then
>the present government declared that the no PLO contact law is stupid?
>would they have said that if the charter was still the same?

Because it was, and yes.
>
>
>Nora, what is with you? last time you say nuclear weapons and now 
>you say we fight back. The final solution should be a Palestinian
>state ruled by Palestinians.

Then overthrow Hussein and take back eastern Palestine.
-- 
bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,misc.headlines,talk.politics.misc,alt.conspiracy,alt.censorship
From: eggertj@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41)
Subject: Re: BACK TO LIMBAUGH'S SECRET NONAGENDA
Reply-To: eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu
Organization: MIT Lincoln Lab - Group 41
	<1992Aug11.143055.17242@u.washington.edu>
	<EGGERTJ.92Aug11131118@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu>
	<1992Aug12.222516.22951@bony1.bony.com>
Date: 13 Aug 92 09:56:08

In article <1992Aug12.222516.22951@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>   In article <EGGERTJ.92Aug11131118@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu> eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu writes:
>   It is your approach that is clearly dishonest, Jim.  While PLO actions
>   over the years have been clearly and explicitly terrorist, you can
>   only come up with Israeli actions that you describe as "implicitly
>   terrorism".  In other words, Israelis are terrorists because you feel
>   they are.  You are simply trying to blur the definition of terrorism
>   so as to include Israel in it.

No.  Israel has engaged in explicit terrorism against US positions.
Israeli military intelligence bombed the US Information Center
libraries in Cairo and Alexandria.  Somehow you forgot about this one.

>   [...]
>
>   >A universal definition of terrorism is admittedly difficult to
>   >provide.  
>
>   The commonly-accepted view thus holds.  By this view, Israel is not a
>   terrorist state, as opposed to, say, Iran, Libya, Syria and a few
>   others.  Your muddling of the issue cannot compare Israel to these
>   states nor can their actions be compared.  And yet you persist.

I did not say that Israel is a terrorist state.  I do maintain that
Israel has engaged in state terrorism.  The two differ.

>   >I would say that terrorism involves violence to achieve
>   >political, rather than military, ends.  
>
>   In that case, Desert Storm was one giant terrorist action.  And the
>   people who protest in front of abortion clinics are terrorists, as are
>   the police who arrest them.  Your definition is so unusable as to be
>   ludicrous. 

Your application is ludicrous.  Desert Storm had a military objective,
the ejection of Iraqi forces from Kuwait.

Can you provide a usable definition of terrorism, Jake?  I haven't
seen one from you.  You will have to try hard to define it so
carefully as to cast Palestinian violence as terrorism, but Zionist
and Israeli violence as something else.
--
=Jim  eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami)
Subject: Re: Arab/Isreali Wars
Organization: Technion, Israel Inst. of Technology
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 17:41:06 GMT

In article <stricher-180892001707@stayman.ocean.fsu.edu> stricher@masig.fsu.edu (Char Aznabul) writes:
>Speaking of the Arab/Israeli wars, could someone explain to
>me [very slowly if you must ;] how in 1973 the Syrians managed
>to get two armies up on the Golan without the Israelis
>finding out about it *before* they attacked?

First of all, there was the famous CONCEPTIA. Israeli top couldn't
beleive that the Arabs have the courage to mount an attack considering
the Power balance at the time. [ Miltarily they were right, after the 
first shock disappeared the IDF crushed the Arabs with a vengance and 
drobe them hard - 50 Km from Damascus, 101 Km from Cairo. Third Army
saved from hunger by UN intervention ].

The inteligence was aware of the action of course (one cannot ignore 
such movements). this was considered to be maneuvers - there were couple
of same scale maneuvers in the past. There was an incident when the
reserves were called after such a manuever and it was for nothing.

Day before the attack the Inteligence got a very good source that this
was war (Russian familes evacuate from Syria&Egypt) they delayed it for
~12 hours because of Conceptia and incompetence. When the alarm was on
it was too late.
 
>K'Char
 
David.
-- 
=============================================================================
  David Ben-Ami (irc: bigdav)      |   "I can resist anything but Temptation"
  s2780369@Techst02.Technion.Ac.Il |       Oscar Wilde
  davidba@Carmel.Technion.Ac.Il  davidba@Moav.Techniona.Ac.Il
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,talk.bizarre,soc.history,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.turkish,soc.culture.europe
From: al037@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dave Polewka)
Subject: hbm@ddsw1.mcs.com (Hasan B. Mutlu) -- anagrams (@=a)
Reply-To: al037@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dave Polewka)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 22:27:53 GMT




   %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
   %%% hbm@ddsw1.mcs.com (Hasan B. Mutlu) -- anagrams (@=a) %%%
   %%% **************************************************** %%%::
   %%%   1.  1 madman holds B.M., succs thumb!  Aw!         %%%::
   %%%   2.  Swans bomb 1 Dutch dam!  Clams hum!!           %%%::
   %%%   3.  As Bush won, 1 catch: M.D.s mumbl'd "Ma!"      %%%::
   %%% **************************************************** %%%::
   %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%::
      :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

-- 
=======================
"Endeavor to persevere"
=======================
Organization: Masters student, Information Networking Institute, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 01:23:52 -0400 
From: Radu Eugen Edelstein <re0x+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Israel: Chutzpah at the Negotiating Table

Nora writes:
>Someone else proposed that some Arab states give up territory to Israel
>as gesture of good will. My intial thought was "no way". But on further
>reflection, I think this is a good thing. On one condition.
>
>That the indigenous population be given full citizenship in their new
>country, and that their rights be respected.
>
>Fair enuff, eh?

It certainly is, and I have no problem with this whatsoever.

I say:
It is a totally impracticable solution.  Such an acceptance by
Israel would be diplomatically perceived as confirming Israel's
desire to aquire new territory.

Rad
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,misc.headlines,talk.politics.misc,alt.conspiracy,alt.censorship
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Lehi and nazies
Date: 21 Aug 92 21:33:25 GMT
Organization: USC/Information Sciences Institute
In-reply-to: dzk@cs.brown.edu's message of 21 Aug 92 15:54:34 GMT

In article <1992Aug21.155434.18540@cs.brown.edu> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
>
> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes: (to Alan H. Stein).
> #
> #Ok, this does it.  You're knowingly lying, that is clear now.  Your
> #repeated assertions concerning the reasons behind LEHIs offer to fight
> #on the German side are nothing but your own baseless invention.
>
> Not necessarily; I view his position as a legimitate interpretation
> of what LEHI had in mind. While not condoning neither this nor
> other things LEHI had done, I reject your one-dimensional and over-
> simplified interpretation of their motives. 

What you don't seem to get is that I am not "interpreting" their motives
-- I posted exactly what they *said* about their offer "to take an
active part in the war on the side of Germany".  Neither is Mr. Stein
"interpreting" their motives -- he's just making up a reason that they
nowhere stated or even hinted at.

There's a big difference, and it's about time to reconciled yourself to
this!
--
Yigal Arens   "He seems like an average type of man.  He's not, like, smart.
USC/ISI        I'm not trying to bag on him or anything, but he has the same
arens@isi.edu  mentality I have -- and I'm in the eighth grade."     Vanessa
               Martinez, after VP Quayle's visit to her school-LA Times 5/21
From: davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Schmidling is simply wrong.
Date: 12 Aug 92 19:09:55 GMT
Organization: Technion, Israel Inst. of Technology

In article <1992Aug11.002003.25592@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>In article <1992Aug4.150111.3833@anasaz> scott@qip.UUCP (Scott Gibson) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug4.073503.13273@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com> markr@mcil.comm.mot.com writes:
>
>>>I don't believe that they couldn't have destroyed more Scud launchers,
>>>Israels Air Force is reputed to be one of the best.  Also, they could
>>>have concentrated all their efforts on the Scuds while the other forces
>>>had the entire Iraq to bomb.
>
>>How naive.  Do you believe that coalition forces failed to destroy
>>more SCUD launchers because they were peopled by inept pilots?
>
>They were flying under more restrictive internal regulations.
>Israelis regularly fly lower at high speed than American pilots.
>To minimize risks (and bodybags), the American pilots weren't
>supposed to get too close to the ground.  Israelis, with much
>more at stake than American pilots (with all due respect) are
>authorized to fly lower.

That reminds me that during the war, general Schwarzkopf refered to
the Scud attacks as "less than a storm in Georgia" (or maybe he said
"Virginia"). To the Israeli citizens (and military people) this was
entirely different story. All this feeling of helplessness and dependence 
has reminded some people of the Ghettoes and the Stetl (especially when
the Gas threat was imminent).

>
>Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com               Pat Paulsen for President
>American-Occupied New York                    This year he has a real chance!
 David.
-- 
=============================================================================
  David Ben-Ami (irc: bigdav)      |   "I can resist anything but Temptation"
  s2780369@Techst02.Technion.Ac.Il |       Oscar Wilde
  davidba@Carmel.Technion.Ac.Il  davidba@Moav.Techniona.Ac.Il
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israel: Chutzpah at the Negotiating Table
Date: 12 Aug 92 15:27:37 GMT
Reply-To: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)


In a previous article, ejk@coral.JPL.NASA.gov (Elya Kapelyan) says:

>	I think that it is far more interesting what is missing from this list
>than what is here.  For instance:
>
>	1.  Immediate renunciation of the state of war with Israel.
>	2.  Agreement in principle to sharply cut stockpiles of weapons,
>	    and reduction of military expenditures.
>	3.  Agreement to eliminate chemical/biological weapons from the ME.
>	4.  Renunciation of Arab "right of return" to pre-67 Israel.
>
>	Now I don't expect the Arabs to agree to even one of these points,
>but this is what they could (and should) offer Israel in exchange for _some_
>territory.
>

I'd add an end to the intifada.  (Actually, that would mostly be a boon to
the Arabs themselves, since they are far more affected by that continued
violence than the Israelis. 
-- 
bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu
From: stricher@masig.fsu.edu (Char Aznabul)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israel: Chutzpah at the Negotiating Table
Date: 13 Aug 92 00:09:31 GMT
Distribution: na

Alan H. Stein writes
+ 
+ In a previous article, stricher@masig.fsu.edu (Char Aznabul) says:
+ 
+ >nora gayle rivkis writes
+ >
+ >+ I would have them say they will not try to destroy Israel (they wouldn't
+ >+ succeed anyway) and then back that statement up with both unilateral ac-
+ >+ tions with respect to terrorism and ironclad treaties restricting mili-
+ >+ tary action.
+ >
+ >Yep, that's clear enough, and sufficient. The details may be problematic,
+ >tho. Would the "ironclad" treaties concerning military action be  
applicable
+ >to Israel as well? Israel has the right to secure borders - but so does
+ >her neighbors.
+ >
+ Since Israel has never had any territorial claims against any of its
+ neighbors, that's a non-issue as far as Israel is concerned.  It would

Non issue? Would you care to make the claim the Israel WILL NEVER have
ambitions on her neighbor's land? Nice that you trust the Israeli
government.

Someone else proposed that some Arab states give up territory to Israel
as gesture of good will. My intial thought was "no way". But on further
reflection, I think this is a good thing. On one condition.

That the indigenous population be given full citizenship in their new
country, and that their rights be respected.

Fair enuff, eh?

K'Char
From: egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: BILL CLINTON ON ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE
Date: 21 Aug 92 09:00:53 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <1992Aug20.211444.5946@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein) writes:
=>
=>In a previous article, nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss) says:
=>>
=>>International Law? This is a joke. If there is any law in the world
=>>I will be living now with my parents in Haifa.
=>
=>If they hadn't decided, of their own free will, against the pleading of
=>Jewish leaders, to leave, then you might.  But don't blame the Israelis.
=>
=>At the time that virtually the entire Arab population of Haifa left, the
=>British police (no friends of the Jews!) reported that "every effort is
=>being made by the Jews to pursuade the Arab populace to stay and carry on
=>with their normal lives, ... and to be assured that their lives and
=>interests will be safe."  The Haganah even ordered that no Arab's
=>possessions be touched, and warned that anyone who violated that order
=>would be severely punished.
=>
=>Your parents apparently voluntarily left Haifa, and have no more right to
=>return their than my grandparents had to return to the Russia they fled for
=>their lives.

I really don't understand how you have the gall to continue to post this
sort of fantasy. Just a few days ago Brendan (I think) posted a whole bunch
of contemporary reports detailing the way the inhabitants were driven out
of their homes, and now here you are indulging in yet another obnoxious
flight of wishful thinking. Maybe you could get a job in Belgrade?


-- 
==================================================================
-Jeremy Henderson            |  Une souris verte
 egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk	     |  Qui courrait dans l'herbe
==================================================================
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Subject: Re: He Who Saves a Single Soul...
Organization: Australian National University
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 13:04:31 GMT

horen@rs.com (Jonathan B. Horen) writes:
>In article 24590@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM, nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss) writes:
>Show us Arab refugees from "Palestine" who were forced to leave or to
>lose their lives, who had nowhere to go except among strangers, and who 
>were repeatedly subjected to the debasement and genocidal actions of
>murderous nations.

Ask any of the former residents of Ramle or Lydda, to name a few.
Ask any former resident of Jaffa.  Perhaps you can explain why
Jaffa (NOT in the Jewish partition) was overrun by Jewish forces 
even before the Declaration of Independence?

>The Jewish state, "Palestine" to the British, has *always* existed
>during the last 3O00+ years -- the "Modern" State of Israel is just
>that -- modern -- but it is not "new". 

This is not fact, it's just (recent) religious dogma.  Since that
makes it immune to argument, I won't try.

>                                        Because of this, we had no
>reason to listen to the wishes of the Arab nations who opposed us 
>(and because their opposition to us and to things Jewish was already 
>well-known), only to their threats (which, as we all know, were/are
>very real).

A clear statement of your moral standards.  You have been wronged
and therefore you are entitled to trample on the rights of others.
We've heard it before.  Why not just be honest and admit that you 
believe it was correct to forcably expel the Arabs of Palestine?

>j.horen@rs.com

Brendan.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: rivk@quads.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis)
Subject: Re: Israel: Chutzpah at the Negotiating Table
Reply-To: rivk@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 17:07:36 GMT

In article <10283@sun13.scri.fsu.edu> stricher@masig.fsu.edu (Char Aznabul) writes:
>nora gayle rivkis writes
>
>+ I would have them say they will not try to destroy Israel (they wouldn't
>+ succeed anyway) and then back that statement up with both unilateral ac-
>+ tions with respect to terrorism and ironclad treaties restricting mili-
>+ tary action.
>
>Yep, that's clear enough, and sufficient. The details may be problematic,
>tho. Would the "ironclad" treaties concerning military action be applicable
>to Israel as well? Israel has the right to secure borders - but so does
>her neighbors.

Yes, they'd apply both ways. Ideally, I'd like a tripwire zone set up along
all borders -- anything that crosses either way is considered an act of war
and treated accordingly -- and demilitarization along a given area on both
sides of that border.

Anyone who crosses that line or breaks the demilitarization pact is subject
to anything the other side can and wishes to do to them, up to and including
conquest and demolition. No UN cease-fire and no holds barred. Yes, this is
harsh, but I think for there to be any valid deterrence factor, it has to
be.

>K'Char

	-Nora
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: clamen@CS.CMU.EDU (Stewart Clamen)
Subject: Population Comparisons (was: Arab/Isreali Wars)
Originator: clamen@BYRON.SP.CS.CMU.EDU
Reply-To: clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University
	<1992Aug19.015811.4063@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 03:57:55 GMT

In article <1992Aug19.015811.4063@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll) writes:

   In a previous article, faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris) says:

   >Last week Ilyess Bdira indicated that Isreal's army is a myth and cannot fight a long
   >war. This has generated some discussions about the definition of long wars and whether
   >Isreal could win that way.

   I did not read that article, but I suspect that it is correct.  Israel has
   in the past always depended on advance intelligence and lightning quick
   attacks to avoid long combat.  Since Israel is substantially outnumbered in 
   people (I would suspect that Israel's entire population is less than that of
   Cairo alone.

Israel's entire population is less than that of the male population of
Cairo!

--
Stewart M. Clamen			Internet:    clamen@cs.cmu.edu
School of Computer Science		UUCP: 	     uunet!"clamen@cs.cmu.edu"
Carnegie Mellon University		Phone: 	     +1 412 268 2145
5000 Forbes Avenue			Fax:	     +1 412 268 5739
Pittsburgh, PA 15213-3890, USA
Organization: Masters student, Information Networking Institute, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA