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Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 14:03:44 EST
From:         "Donald J. Magee" <djm@TRENT.ATT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Moral Activity (was Re: Asylum)
              92 6:07 pm

>
> One can be anti-abortion and still believe that political laws are not the way
> to enforce moral law.  The goal is to stop abortion; changing the law will not
> stop it - that we know from previous experience.  One needs to work for a
 moral
> climate in which children are valued, the community (family) interests have
> greater weigh than individual interests, where emotional/financial/social
> support is given to those raising children regardless of the circumstances of
> the child's birth ... Abortion will stop only
>
>
>  when the factors leading a woman to choose abortion are changed.  One cannot
> successfully legislate values; one can only legislate an environment that
> encourages those values (for example the anti-discrimination laws).
>


        If one is anti-abortion doesn't it make sense that he/she
would want to do whatever can be done to reduce the number of
abortions as soon as possible.  To outlaw abortion would remove from
quick and easy access the means by which most unborn children are
killed, that being the local hospital/clinic/doctor's office.

        I wholeheartedly agree that the factors leading to many
womens' abortions need to be corrected, before we can expect many
women from desiring abortion as a "solution" to a "problem".

        To remove the most common means by which unborn children are
killed, and to prosecute the doctors and nurses who assist at the then
illegal abortions would help reduce the number of abortions.  It is
crazy that my daughter can't get an aspirin at school without my
permission but she could be taken without my permission out of school
to an abortion clinic for an invasive medical procedure.

IMHO, the way to go is to help the woman when you hear she is pregnant
and in need of help.  You provide whatever she needs, a place to live,
money, medical, food, education, job training, etc.  AND make illegal
access to abortion.

getting down off the soapbox...

Don Magee

trent!djm@jolt.att.com
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center
Date: Thursday, 17 Dec 1992 09:29:59 EST
From: Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Financing education (was Queens School Board


Jim McIntosh says "But that's not the purpose of the tax, is it? It's
not intended as a tuition payment towards your children's education,
but is instead a tax to support the running of a public education
system. That's the reason singles and older married couples are not
exempt from the tax. If you do not wish to take advantage of the
public education system, and can afford private schooling, you are
welcome to do so, but that does not lessen requirement of the society
to provide some base line of education."

In one sense, that is correct.  People who vote for a school tax
think of it as a tax to support the public schools.  But that is an
unduly narrow view of the matter.  Jim correctly says that society
has to provide some base line of education.  But that does not re-
quire public schools. Society also has a responsibility to provide a
base line or minimum level of health care.   Some governments operate
public hospitals and clinics to provide health care.  However, some
government health care programs provide payment to private physicians
and other health care workers or reimbursement to individuals who pay
their own physicians.  The goal of providing some base line of health
care does not require government operated hospitals and clinics.

Society has a responsibility to see that all children receive a basic
education.  If children are not educated, society cannot survive.  In
a pre-literate society education in how to farm, hunt, make clothing,
etc. can be provided in the family or through apprenticeship.  Modern
society requires schools.  (Private tutors can educate some children,
but not all the children of a large society.)  This is why singles
and older married couples are not exempt from educational taxes.  The
taxes are not just to educate the children of the taxpayers, but to
educate the children of society.  Therefore, all members of society
must contribute to the educational operation.  If a parent sends his
children to a non-public school for which he pays tuition he is
contributing to the education of some of the children of society.  If
he pays the same school taxes as someone who sends his children to a
public school, he is contributing more to the education of the chil-
dren of the society than is the parent who sends his children to
public schools.  Tuition vouchers, tax credits, a "junior GI Bill" or
similar proposals are ways of equalizing the contribution that par-
ents who choose non-public schools are making to the education of the
children of society as a whole.


-------
Marty Helgesen
Bitnet: mnhcc@cunyvm   Internet: mnhcc@cunyvm.cuny.edu

"Experience beats in vain upon a congenital progressive."
        --  C. S. Lewis
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center
Date: Tuesday, 15 Dec 1992 07:28:09 EST
From: Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Feeding Somalia

The following is from the front page of the New York
Times, December 14, 1992:

"WHERE A WAR HAS BRED FAMINE, GREEN SOMALI FIELDS OFFER HOPE

     "Afgoi, Somalia, Dec. 12 -- The fields astride the swollen
Shebelle River stretched emerald green today with corn, onions, green
peppers and lettuce, and the red soil remained soggy from the gener-
ous rainy season.  In famine-stricken Somalia such abundance just 30
miles from Mogadishu seemed implausible.

     "'The problem is not food,' said Yusuf Ali Yusuf, a Government
agronomist who now works with a relief agency to distribute seeds.
'It's a question of law and order. You have to pay a lot to guard all
this.  You have to buy bullets every day.'"

This report says the same as all reports I've seen or heard from
people actually in Somalia.  The problem is not a lack of food.  The
problem is anarchy following coup some time ago, with warfare between
gangs/clans/tribes or whatever.  The armed gangs steal all the food
that relief agencies try to distribute.

Helping poor countries develop is important.  It is right in itself.
Also, as someone already has pointed out, it is to the economic
interest of the developed countries.  Undeveloped countries can't buy
what developed countries produce.

It is not surprising that the posted statement originally came from a
Lyndon LaRouche source.  LaRouche is a one-time extreme left wing
crackpot who became an extreme right wing crackpot. He is perhaps
best known for his claim that Queen Elizabeth II is a leader of the
international drug trade.  His movement has been described as a non-
religious cult.
-------
Marty Helgesen
Bitnet: mnhcc@cunyvm   Internet: mnhcc@cunyvm.cuny.edu

"Experience beats in vain upon a congenital progressive."
        --  C. S. Lewis
From: elendil@seashell.mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Moral Activity (was Re: Asylum)
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 92 08:24:52 CST
Organization: Seashell Software

URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM writes:

> > Question 2: how do we know what n is?
>
> The recent "48 Hours" show seemed to indicate that modern technology
> has brought this "n" for survival down to 23-25 weeks. - J.J.

J.J., that number is a bit shaky.  Unfortunately, I know this from personal
experience.  Babies in the 23-25 week period do not have fully developed lungs,
normally require external support to breathe, and are classed as no better than
50/50 in terms of survival.  My wife's doctor was really in pain over this
decision, because he didn't know if he'd be doing a live birth or a second
trimester abortion.  The combination of a trouble pregnancy and drugs
prescribed to slow contractions had start giving her some heart problems.  The
doctor knew that if the problems continued, he'd have to take the baby.
Anyway, her water bag broke, at least ending the moral question.

Additionally, those 23-25 week babies are quite expensive to care for, if they
survive.  My daughter's NICU care cost over $400K.  Home care was also
expensive once she left the hospital.  There are probably lots of hospitals in
cities across the country that don't have proper facilities for these babies.
What's keeping these babies alive is a ventilator, IV feedings, hormones, etc.
Left to stand on their own, most would be classed as still births.

I never thought much about the claims that anti-abortion advertisers make about
how a fetus has a heartbeat from early on.  They fail to mention that that same
fetus doesn't have lungs until they are quite far along in the process, and
really can't support themselves outside of the womb until well into the third
trimester.  If the fetus can't live on its own, I can't help but wonder if it's
really alive, or just a parasite at that point.  (Of course, I oppose abortion
simply because I believe in erring on the side of the potential life.)

Of course, given how few second and third trimester abortions take place, the
discussion of what 'n' is is really irrelavent, because most abortions take
place at a developmental point where 'n' is still a long way away.




|Edward J. Branley         elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us|
|Seashell Software, Metairie, LA            +1-504-455-5087|
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Sun, 20 Dec 1992 22:58:05 -0500
From:         mayo@CS.UTK.EDU
Subject:      "One Bread, One Body", Dec. 23

                    Wednesday, December 23, 1992
                       John of Kanty, Priest

Malachi 3:1-4                 Psalm 25            Luke 1:57-66

                       THE HEART OF CHRISTMAS

"Lo, I will send you Elijah, the prophet, before the day of the Lord comes,
 the great and terrible day." --Malachi 3:23

In the last two verses of the last chapter of the Old Testament, it was
prophesied that Elijah would return to prepare us for the coming of the
Messiah.  Before the Lord comes, Elijah must help us "turn the hearts of the
fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers"
(Mal 3:24).  Before Jesus' public ministry, this prophecy was fulfilled by
John the Baptizer (Lk 1:17; Mt 17:12-13).  For us to be prepared for Jesus'
Christmas coming, this prophecy must be fulfilled again.

You who are parents, especially you fathers, must have a heart for your
children in a new way.  You love your children, but the Lord wants to deepen
this.  He calls you to lead your children in prayer and to give them more
personal and undivided attention.  This applies even to those with adult
children.

All of us are children.  Whether our parents are dead or alive, good or bad,
the Lord calls us to turn our hearts to them by loving them unconditionally,
forgiving them, and honoring them.  The Lord calls us to be reconciled
and at peace with even the worst, most abusive parents.

A deeper love between parents and children prepares the way for Christ's
comings.  Turn your hearts.  Christ is coming.


Prayer:  Heavenly Father, help me have a right relationship with my earthly
         father.

Promise: "All who heard stored these things up in their hearts, saying,
          'What will this child be?' and 'Was not the hand of the Lord
          upon him?'" --Lk 1:66

Praise:  John of Kanty was a Spirit-filled teacher of theology.
-----
From "One Bread, One Body", reproduced with permission.
Nihil Obstat: Rev. Edward J. Gratsch
Imprimatur:  +Most Rev. James H. Garland, V.G.
              Archdiocese of Cincinnati, August 17, 1992.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Organization: University of Massachusetts Dartmouth, North Dartmouth, MA, USA
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Fri, 11 Dec 1992 22:00:37 -0500
Comments:     A VAX cluster with VMS V5.5, PMDF V4.1-10, JNET V3.5 & UCX V1.3A
From:         Liz Moreau <EMOREAU@UMASSD.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Queens school board

>every last bastion of those values from society.  Is there someone on this
>list who can tell us how the parents of the area are reacting to this?

From the comments listed in a Massachusetts paper, the parents are
outraged.  They can't believe this is being forced down their throats
and plan to do all they can to prevent it from being taught.  In our
papers they are stating they want to start this in kindergarten.
These are children who can't read and write. What do they need to know
about these issues for????

                                                Liz
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
From: elendil@seashell.mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Operation Rescue
Date: 8 Dec 92 01:17:57 GMT
Organization: Seashell Software

"Gordon C. Zaft" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG> writes:

> On Dec 6,  7:22am, "Edward J. Branley" wrote:
> } Subject: Re: Asylum (sanctuary)
> }
> } Hmmm...shame that other OR rescues in this country don't follow 'principles
> } non-violent action.'  Nothing like a video of an OR activist minister
> } assaulting women in front of a clinic (as happened in Baton Rouge, LA) to
>  shoot
> } down that concept...
> }
> } Based on direct observation of OR in this part of the country, my statement
> } are *not* misleading.
> }-- End of excerpt from "Edward J. Branley"
>
> I'll see your anecdote, and raise you one anecdote and one Friend-of-a-friend
> :-).
>
>         The one rescue I participated in was totally peaceful (on our
> side).  The 4 or 5 friends I know who have rescued have never ever
> been violent or seen violence on the part of OR (though much on
> the other side).
>
>         This was primarily in LA.
>
> GZ
>
> --
> * Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
> * zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
>                  Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.


Gordon, unfortunately those observations from this summer were not anecdotes,
but documented news footage.

On the same subject, 20 or so OR protestors were arrested at the same clinic
today.  They were trying for some holiday publicity, so they all marched on the
clinic in Santa suits.  Six of the group arrested were charged with aggravated
battery because they physically charged the clinic security guard with a
makeship sleigh made up to match the outfits.

Now, normally I would be suspicious of any charges of assault or simple battery
that might stem from a clinic protest.  Six people being arrested for
aggravated battery means that they really committed a serious violent crime.
In LA (as I'm sure in other states), simple battery is the crime that would
result from a fistfight or pushing match.  An aggravated crime involves a
weapon and injuries that result from the use of that weapon.  This means that
the clinic guard was seriously injured by the actions of these protestors.  So
much for your 'anecdotes,' Gordon.  These people are dangerous and violent.
There is no other way to categorize this movement.




|Edward J. Branley         elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us|
|Seashell Software, Metairie, LA            +1-504-455-5087|
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
From: gjkirk@napier.uwaterloo.ca (Gerald Kirk)
Subject: Re: electronic bible
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 20:52:43 GMT

Something that has worked well for me that you might want
to try is daily devotions.  I have a Vision 2000 devotional book
that provides a well-rounded approach to learning scripture and 
spending one-on-one time with God.

Each day there is a short scripture passage, followed by a related
story.  The stories are often about real people, some who are quite
famous.

At the bottom of each page is a daily thought related to the day's 
topic.

The subjects covered in the book coincide with the lectionary readings
you hear at mass.  I like this setup because the reading I do during
the week prepares me for Sunday's readings and I get more out of them.

The book also suggests how to go about doing devotional readings in 
order to get the most out of them (ie. preparation, focus, sharing 
your thoughts with God) and how to set up group devotional meetings, 
if you have others interested in sharing as well.

I highly recommend the book; it ensures that I spend time with God
on a daily basis and keeps our relationship strong.  I have improved
my relationship with Him a lot because of my devotional work.

It's a great way to read scripture and learn about God at the same time
and it only takes about 15 minutes a day.


Merry Christmas to all!

In His Love,
Gerald Kirk

Jesus is the reason for the season...
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: kschudt@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Karl C Schudt)
Subject: Merry Christmas and (maybe) Farewell
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 08:46:59 GMT

Now that I've graduated (again) and its time to go int othe real world,
I may be losing net access for a time. I just wanted to say, its been fun, 
thanks for reading some of my posts.

Merry Christmas everyone!



Yours Truly,
Karl Schudt
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Mailer: InterCon TCP/Connect II 1.1b23
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 17:55:26 -0500
From:         Amanda Walker <amanda@INTERCON.COM>
Subject:      Re: Asylum (sanctuary)

"John R. Covert 15-Dec-1992 1237" <covert@COVERT.ENET.DEC.COM> writes:
> That's not the case at all.  The Church is not just its ordained
> priesthood. Laity are also ministers of the Church -- and they certainly
> are able to be elected to public office.

Indeed.  Remember also that a priest serving in public office could be seen
as having divided loyalties.  A priest is someone whose life is set aside for
specific kinds of service, and who has explicitly sworn obedience to a non-
civil human authority (and in the Catholic Church's case, a "foreign" one).

The issue is at least as problematic from the civil side as it is from the
Church's point of view...


Peace,

Amanda Walker
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Sat, 19 Dec 1992 16:35:13 -0500
From:         mayo@CS.UTK.EDU
Subject:      "One Bread, One Body", Dec. 22

                    Tuesday, December 22, 1992

I Samuel 1:24-28           I Samuel 2           Luke 1:46-56

                        "MARY" CHRISTMAS

"Then Mary said: 'My being proclaims the greatness of the Lord." --Luke 1:46

Today, in preparation of Christ's coming this Christmas, the Church introduces
us to two women praising the Lord. Hannah was barren and periodically depressed
for several years.  However, she finally exalted in the Lord because she had
given birth to a son, Samuel (I Sm 2:1).  Some of us are like Hannah.  We
have had a good year, or even a good life.  We have many reasons to rejoice
and praise the Lord.

Mary, the mother of Jesus, was also proclaiming the greatness of the Lord and
rejoicing in God her Savior (Lk 1:46-47).  She conceived Jesus, God Himself,
in her womb.  But, unlike Hannah, she faced major problems.  She could have
been executed as an adulteress.  She probably expected Joseph to divorce her
and her family and friends to reject her.  Who would believe that she
conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit?  Nevertheless, Mary praised the
Lord.  By faith, she proclaimed that her problems, and even those of the
world, were already taken care of, although by sight it looked like she was
in an impossible situation (see II Cor 5:7).


Prayer:  Father, may we all, especially those who are depressed, praise You
         with enthusiasm this day and this Christmas season.

Promise: "As long as he lives, he shall be dedicated to the Lord." --I Sm 1:28

Praise:  Luke invited George, his boss, to Christmas Mass.  George went, and
         gave his life to Jesus three months later.
-----
From "One Bread, One Body", reproduced with permission.
Nihil Obstat: Rev. Edward J. Gratsch
Imprimatur:  +Most Rev. James H. Garland, V.G.
              Archdiocese of Cincinnati, August 17, 1992.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Sat, 19 Dec 1992 16:34:01 -0500
From:         mayo@CS.UTK.EDU
Subject:      "One Bread, One Body", Dec. 21

                    Monday, December 21, 1992
                Peter Canisius, Priest and Doctor

            Song of Songs 2:8-14 or Zephaniah 3:14-18
Psalm 33                                             Luke 1:39-45

                              ON TIME

"Our soul waits for the Lord." --Psalm 33:20

On the first day of winter, the Church reads to us: "The winter is past, the
rains are over and gone.  The flowers appear on the earth" (Sg 2:11-12).
Either the Church is very disoriented, or it has different seasons.

The Church has a different way of looking at time.  It begins its year at the
beginning of December with Advent.  It doesn't live for the weekend but for
Sunday.  The Church doesn't think our days on earth are the whole of our
lives but just a momentary beginning to eternal life.  This may explain why
the Church claims that what the world calls winter is springtime in the
Spirit.

The world thinks it's almost the end of Christmas.  Just a few more shopping
days are left.  Once again, the world is wrong about the time.  Christmas is
not almost over; it is almost begun.  We're about to complete Advent, not
Christmas.  This means we are not primarily in a time of celebration but of
preparation.  We should not be feasting yet but fasting.  It's time to be
quiet, not busy.  Therefore, "be on your guard lest your spirits become
bloated with indulgence and drunkenness and worldly cares.  The great day will
suddenly close in on you" (Lk 21:34). Know what time it is and act accordingly.


Prayer:  Father, may I be "on time" and ready for Your Son's Christmas-coming
         and final coming.

Promise: "Blest is she who trusted that the Lord's words to her would be
          fulfilled." --Luke 1:45

Praise:  Peter Canisius was known as the "second apostle of Germany."
-----
From "One Bread, One Body", reproduced with permission.
Nihil Obstat: Rev. Edward J. Gratsch
Imprimatur:  +Most Rev. James H. Garland, V.G.
              Archdiocese of Cincinnati, August 17, 1992.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic