HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: more of ...can of worms....
Summary: We do NOT have a moral right to protect people from themselves
Date: 16 Aug 92 20:55:55 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department

In article <ALLEN.92Aug13134956@golem.ssc.gov> allen@ssc.gov writes:
>>>>>> On Thu, 13 Aug 1992 04:23:34 GMT, stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) said:

>In article <1992Aug13.042334.24988@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:
>[...]
>Stan> I'll put it very simply.  When the time comes that I will have to
>Stan> recite Kaddish, I don't want, or need, any ignoramus even
>Stan> tentatively implying that I didn't "properly" fulfil the mitzvah

>What you want is one thing, what you need is perhaps something else.
>When someone is damaging themselves, even unintentionally, we all have
>a responsibility to help them.  Suppose, for example, someone was
>doing something you knew was dangerous, but that they didn't believe
>was dangerious (such as carrying some highly radioactive material, for
>example).  I think you would agree that it is worth being called an
>ignoramous and worse to protect them from themselves.  Why do you get
>so angry, then, about the Rabbis trying to protect your Neshama?

IF the person is not endangering others, we have the moral right only
to attempt persuasion.  What gives you the right to tell them what is
good for them?  Even if they know that it is likely to shorten their
lives, but they believe it will help their souls, you do not have the
moral right.  THIS is the principle of freedom, and it is no accident
that the Reform movement was started as a result of a realization of
the rights of man.

And furthermore, what if you are wrong?  We now have the situation in
which government agencies are imposing their judgment, even when there
are many scientists who hold otherwise, to decide what we can and cannot
have.  It is quite possible that these government agencies have caused
hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of deaths, and considerable
suffering.  Until recently, the individual as an individual had no rights.
The early law codes only slightly limited the power of the authorities.

	The greatest immorality of all is to impose one's morality on others.
-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!pop.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
From: Eric_S_Klien@cup.portal.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Electronic Matchmaker
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 92 01:01:11 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world

Jewish women, having a problem finding a Jewish man?  I am about to 
launch a free electronic matching service on Usenet.  Thanks to the 
imbalance of men to women on Usenet, more guys than gals have 
expressed an interest so far.  If you would like to see the fifth 
draft of my questionnaire so we can alter it to also fit women's 
needs as well as men's, either send me mail or look at the copy I 
posted in alt.personals.  
 
This service is serious and I already have 291 men and 162 women 
signed up so far.  The site of the service has already been selected 
and programming has begun.  
 
I should point out that this questionnaire really, really, really, 
needs some more input on CULTURES.  I need some questions to make 
sure that matches are compatible culturally.  
 
                                                          Eric Klien
From: shoham@ll.mit.edu (Daniel Shoham)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: is the hebrew language a new language?
Date: 13 Aug 92 03:07:49 GMT
Organization: MIT Lincoln Laboratory


Modern Hebrew is the same as the biblical one with modern vocabulary and
gramer added in the past 100 years or so. For the ~2000 years between the
biblical era and modern Israel, hebrew was used for religious purposes only
(much like latin's use today by other religions).

The language was revived by one Ben Yehuda, who was an early zionist. His
effort led to Hebrew now being the language of Israel.

Hebrew is the normally spoken language in Israel by all exept for the
non-jewish minorities (who often speak it as a second language) and
Olims - newcommers (who learn it in special schools - Ulpans).
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: ask@cbnews.cb.att.com (Arthur S. Kamlet)
Subject: Re: Bris
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories,  Columbus, Ohio
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 16:41:35 GMT

In article <1992Aug21.213747.29035@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu> levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene) writes:
>>   May the Holy One bless you as our matriarchs
>>   Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel, and Leah: May the Holy
>>   One bless you and keep you.  [Respond:  Kain
>>   y'Hee Rahtzon.]
>
>WHAT ABOUT BILHAH AND ZILPAH???   YOU LEFT OUT BILHAH AND ZILPAH!!
>
>(:-)}

(I left in the bearded smiley but have a question:)

Do we really think we are descended from Bilhah and Zilpah,
or do we think those tribes were truly lost?
-- 
Art Kamlet  a_s_kamlet@att.com  AT&T Bell Laboratories, Columbus
From: dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: thanks (Re: Jewish friends - help!)
Date: 13 Aug 92 18:34:47 GMT
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.

In article <ALLEN.92Aug12112203@golem.ssc.gov> allen@ssc.gov writes:
>
>3) The cleansed knife is not dirty, just non-kosher.  There is nothing
>dirty about non-kosher food; it is simply harmful to a Jewish soul.

And there's nothing non-kosher about dirty food.  (unless it's toxic,
but that's a different commandment!)

-- 
   |)  David Charlap           "I don't even represent myself
  /|_  dic5340@hertz.njit.edu   sometimes so NJIT is right out!.
 ((|,)
  ~|~  Hi! I am a .signature virus, copy me into your .signature file.
From: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Jews in Japan
Summary: sorry
Date: 17 Aug 92 12:56:24 GMT
Reply-To: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Organization: The Wistar Institute of Anatomy and Biology
In-reply-to: tichauer@valpso.hanse.de (Manfredo Tichauer)

In article <9uZgPB1w165w@valpso.hanse.de>, tichauer@valpso (Manfredo Tichauer) writes:
>Taking into account businessmen, students, and other professionals with their
>families in Japan for 3-5 years the Jewish population can easily run to a
>couple of thousands at any given time. Exact data on permanent residents are
>not available and there are very few longtime residents who make Japan their
>permanent domicile. Conservative estimate: about 600 individuals.

Nu, what is the Orthodox estimate?  The Reform estimate?  The Reconstructionist
estimate?  The Humanist estimate?  Enquiring minds want to know!
-- 
-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
From: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: more of ...can of worms....
Date: 14 Aug 92 21:13:54 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department

In article <1992Aug10.122441.2348@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes:
>In article <56211@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu
>(Herman Rubin) writes:

>>In article <36wm5=k.analyst@netcom.com> analyst@netcom.com (David
>>Sternlight) writes:

>>>Although I am not Orthodox, it's very clear that Orthodoxy IS
>>>that carrier. 

>>I agree that Orthodoxy is the carrier of a tradition.  But tradition
>>is not religion, and religion is not tradition.

>Are you saying they're mutually exclusive, simply not synonymous, or some
>other disjunction?  I really don't understand this.

I do not see any way that they can be mutually exclusive.  A particular
point can be traditional, and also correspond to religious principles.

But i see no justification for a traditional practice automatically, or
even easily, becoming part of religion unless there are strong grounds
outside of tradition for incorporating it.

In other words, to me they are almost independent.  
-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!pop.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
From: moskowit@panix.com (Len Moskowitz)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Shul burned down on Tishah B'Av
Date: 14 Aug 92 14:54:31 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix & Internet, NYC

In article <1992Aug13.114431.202364@uctvax.uct.ac.za>
weissman@uctvax.uct.ac.za writes:

>Note:  The 3 Sifrei Torah in the Aron and the area arround the aron did not 
>burn. The rest of the shul burned to the ground. Nine pairs of Teffilin 
>over thirty Muzuzahs many Tallisim and almost all Seforim perished execept 
>for the shelf with the book Malach Razial.


Shoin!  A segula!  

-- 
Len Moskowitz
moskowit@panix.com
From: ah881@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Joyce Brabner)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: 2 Israeli Students Want to Meet/Stay wi U.S. Peace Groups 1-2 Days
Date: 18 Aug 92 23:25:32 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)


I will begin hosting two Israeli teenagers for 3-4 months,
starting this October.  My guests are interested in seeing
the U.S.A. by way of a special AMTRAK or Greyhound pass,
and they want to stay with families-- ESPECIALLY people
who are environmental activists, or working on peace, social/
economic justice issues, towards racial harmony, etc.
They would also like to visit some American university
campuses.
 
Can anyone suggest ways for my friends to find hosts who
will take them in for 1-2 days per stop?  They want me to
make it very clear that they are both willing to earn their
keep, and they both speak good English.
 
Do you know of any networks of people interested in having
guests?  I can provide letters of reference from Americans.
One student was my guest last year, and is a lovely person.
Please e-mail any ideas.  Thanks!

-- 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: moskowit@tronsbox.xei.com (Len Moskowitz)
Subject: Jewish View Of G-d (was Re: more of ...can of worms....)
Organization: Xanadu Enterprises Inc.
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 15:51:25 GMT

Jerry Shapiro writes:

>Being closer to a Reconstructionist than any of O-C-R, I rarely respond
>to this newsgroup. However, "To Whom it May Concern" still implies the
>same limited outlook that G-D is a person as the other three. When I
>first became involved with Reconstructionists, the idea of viewing G-D
>more as "a Divine Presence" or "A natural force of goodness" and less
>Patriarchical seemed like an extremely radical idea... 

If you think that Jews see G-d as a person, you clearly misunderstand
one of Judaism's foundations.

The Jewish view is that G-d is simple Unity beyond all categories and
descriptions.  All descriptions of G-d in the Torah speak in terms
that people can understand and necessarily use familiar,
anthropomorphic concepts.  These descriptions reflect our limitations
and don't constrain G-d in any way, least of all into being a "person"
or a personality.

In promoting their own agendas, other religions have cast G-d as
Patriarch.  You seem to have adopted this view.  If you check the
sources, you'll see that the Torah describes G-d as manifesting both
male and female aspects and qualities into this world.  Again, this
doesn't attribute personhood to G-d, but rather gives us a way of
relating to and discussing how G-d interacts with creation.

-- 
---

Len Moskowitz
moskowit@tronsbox.xei.com (preferred address)
moskowit@panix.com (alternate address)
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: More on O-C-R
Date: 13 Aug 92 08:02:18 GMT
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs

In <1992Aug11.113123.4724@linus.mitre.org> jls@mbunix.mitre.org (Segal) writes:

>Daniel Faigin's posting on "lemmas of Judaism" was an accurate statement.
>Lemmas can't be proven; they can only be believed or rejected.

I think you mean axioms.  Lemmas are either proved in preparation to
using them to prove another proposition, or if they are unproved, the
proof's validity is conditional on proving the lemmas.

Of course in Judaism nothing can be proved ...
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire world		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very *** signature virus.
 |warren@      But the farmer
/ nysernet.org is not all that worried.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Subject: Re: Proof of the Decline and Fall
Organization: liver ---> spleen
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 12:48:53 GMT

In article <l8nq08INNgoj@appserv.Eng.Sun.COM> janiceg@marvin.Eng.Sun.COM writes:

>Well, as if we didn't have enough proof already that Western civilization 
>is in a decline, this morning at my local bagel shop I saw not only 
>bottled egg creams, but bottled STRAWBERRY egg creams.  What is the 
>world coming to?

I tried some of this strawberry stuff at a food trade show a few weeks
ago.  It was sort of like a very thin milkshake and when cold and
consumed on a hot day was moderately refreshing.  The bottled chocolate is
similarly effective.  Neither could pass for _real_ egg creams even though
the chocolate version was made with U-Bet (tm) syrup.

Now I've gotta go home and make me one.
-- 
Sam Saal      kingfish!saal OR saal@kingfish.att.com
		Note new machine name
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Subject: Re: Bris
Summary: Simchat Bat
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 21:37:47 GMT

In article <1992Aug21.195036.10134@eng.umd.edu> rig@eng.umd.edu
(Ronald Greenberg) writes:

> Here is the pamphlet I promised for the simchat bat combined with a
> siyum that I mentioned in another posting....

...
>Page 5:
>
> As Judy and Efraim offer Shoshana the three-fold blessing
> of our ancestors in Hebrew and English, all respond with
> "Kain y'Hee Rahtzon," meaning, "So May It Be G-d's Will."
>
>   May the Holy One bless you as our matriarchs
>   Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel, and Leah: May the Holy
>   One bless you and keep you.  [Respond:  Kain
>   y'Hee Rahtzon.]

<fuming with righteous indignation>

Hey, Judy and Efraim:

WHAT ABOUT BILHAH AND ZILPAH???   YOU LEFT OUT BILHAH AND ZILPAH!!

WILL YOU MODERN ORTHODOX EVER RECOGNIZE THE EQUALITY OF WOMYN???

<hmmph!>

R

(:-)}



--
Robert A. Levene     Internet: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu
  "/  //  / /"         Bitnet:   RXL1@APLVM
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: feld@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Michael Feld)
Subject: Woody and Soon Yi
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 18:25:13 GMT


Let others debate the question of whether this constitutes incest; 
surely the question that WE must pose is:
will she convert?
-- 
Michael Feld                         | E-mail:  <feld@ccu.umanitoba.ca>
Dept. of Philosophy                  | FAX:     (204) 261-0021
University of Manitoba               | Voice:   (204) 474-9136
Winnipeg, MB, R3T 2M8, Canada
From: de@moscom.UUCP (David Esan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: more of ...can of worms....
Date: 19 Aug 92 15:58:15 GMT
Reply-To: de@moscom.UUCP (David Esan)
Organization: Moscom Corp., Pittsford, NY

In article <1992Aug17.204310.27551@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:
>If we want to get theoretical on this, will they claim that the minhag
>that covers the situation for my son is that of my dad's community (which,
>being Poland, is no tallit until marriage)?  Of course, during our
>affiliation with a Conservative synagogue when I was growing up, my
>dad had me wear a tallit since I was 10 or 11.

Actually, I think that you are making too big a deal about this.

Your son should follow his own minhag (wear his tallis). His repeated action
of wearing the tallis makes it his minhag, and to NOT wear the tallis would
be a violation of his interpetation of the law of tallis wearing.

Now, your dad broke with his tradition by making you wear a tallis before 
marriage.  You followed your father, as you should, and your son is following
his father.  Neither you, nor your son violated a halakhic law.  (You should
honor your parents, but not to violate a law.)

In most places no one will say anything.  Traditions on talaisim are too
diverse.

I have worn a multi-colored talis for the last 12 years (come 5 Elul), which
is unusual for an Orthodox congregation.  The only negative comment I got was
from my Israeli brother-in-law who asked me not to wear it to his aufruf.
Seems that in Rehavia (a/k/a the 5th Reich), Americans with that talis are 
viewed as reform, and he didn't want to start his new marriage with additional 
pressures from his community.  I grumbled but complied.

-- 
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 -->     David Esan      de@moscom.com  
 
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss)
Subject: Re: BILL CLINTON ON ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE
Organization: NCR E&M Columbia SC.
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 18:56:41 GMT

In article <1992Aug17.122129.18504@rs.com> horen@rs.com writes:
>In article 714073473@acf9, mannj@acf9.nyu.edu (Jordan Mann) writes:
>>aaron@kesher.UUCP (Aaron Schmiedel) writes:
>>
>>>I am no big fan of Clinton, but neither am I a big fan of Bush.  I am having a 
>>>hard time trying to find out who to vote for, because while I think CLinton
>>>will be much better for Israel, I think he will be an economic disaster for
>>>the U.S.  (And visa-versa for Bush).  So, I asked for a report on Clintons
>>>stand on Israel.
>>
>>>           BILL CLINTON ON ISRAEL AND THE MIDDLE EAST
>>
>>>[...]
>>
>>Where did you get this information?
>>
>>I found it peculiar that some of the reasoning in this document was a little
>>muddled.   For example, the article praises "the genius of [Israel's] people,"
>>(I think that was the phrase,) and goes on to say that America has benefited
>>from this genius.  In what way?  In that Israel bought so many billions of 
>>dollars of American products.  How the heck does that show the genius of a 
>>people?  The document also says that the arms race in the Middle East must
>>be halted, and *therefore* the US should help Israel finish development of 
>>the Arrow missile. Huh?
>
>Why, dafka, "In that Israel bought so many billions of dollars..."?
>
>How about: "In that major American corporations, like Intel, have taken
>advantage of the `koakh ha-moakh' of Israel's people, and opened R&D and
>production facilities, bringing to all the world the benefit of faster and
>more advanced computers".
>
>Better, no?
>
>


Just out of curuosity, what did Intel R&D develop in Israel? I486?
 
-- 
Nabil Idriss                           |       FOR EVERY ACTION AN OPPOSITE  
NCR - Midrange Products Division       |       AND EQUAL REACTION.
      Columbia, South Carolina         |      
email: nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM |
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Jews in Japan
Date: 19 Aug 92 19:29:11 GMT
Organization: liver ---> spleen

In article <1992Aug19.185526.23757@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>
sethr@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (seth.r.rosenthal) writes:

>I haven't read this book, but at my synagogue we had a guest
>speaker, Rabbi Marvin Tokayer.  He has published a book concerning
>the Japanese role in saving Jews during WWII.  Tied up in this tale,
>(it's too complicated to go through the whole thing) is a story
>that he said took place while R. Tokayer was the Chief Rabbi for Japan.

I believe the name of this book is "The Fugu Plan" (I'm not sure if the
spelling (Fugu :-) is correct.
-- 
Sam Saal      kingfish!saal OR saal@kingfish.att.com
		Note new machine name
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
From: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: God on Earth?
Date: 17 Aug 92 17:15:20 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department

In article <1992Aug16.044616.3935@cs.brown.edu> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
>I am posting this on behalf of someone who does not have access to netnews:

>"This is a question from a naive but curious enthusiast. What is the 
>position, or positions, in Judaism on the role of God on earth? Has he 
>washed his hands off of it, so nature runs like clockwork according to 
>physical laws, and therefore we are the master of our destiny? If so, 
>what is the basis of our relationship to Him? On the other hand, if 
>nature strongly depends on advise from Him on how to bend the ``latest 
>physical law'', and on what to do next, why is there then so much grief 
>on earth, including a recent six million dead? Or, perhaps a combination 
>of both, nature (body) governed by universal timeless laws, and mind (soul)
>in constant interaction with Him? I realize that this is not exactly a 
>yes/no topic! Rather, I am looking for references, pointers, general 
>clarifications, or any insight you might offer." 

There are discussions in Pirke Avoth about miracles, and the view is that
miracles are sufficiently strong to have required inclusion at the time of
creation.  

Now this does not preclude Divine intervention.  If, as we must, we accept
free will, then presumably God can influence the actions of various people.
The Torah specifically states that "God hardened Pharaoh's heart."  However,
many believe that most of the miracles in the Torah are extreme manifestations
of natural phenomena; see, for example, the Hertz _Chumash_.

Modern physics provide the possibility of a limited intervention without
our being sure of it, through the uncertainty priniciple, and without 
violating the laws of nature.  The physical laws themselves, as we know
them, do not allow for determinism.
-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!pop.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Is the Hebrew Language a new Language?
Date: 18 Aug 92 02:16:50 GMT
Organization: USC/Information Sciences Institute
In-reply-to: MASH@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL's message of 17 Aug 92 09:10:42 GMT

In article <199208170841.AA17504@das.wang.com> MASH@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL (Michael Shimshoni) writes:
>
>  In: <4115@bimacs.BITNET> rothberg@bimacs.BITNET (Danny Rothenberg) comments:
> >                                                             Golda
> >Myerson=Golda Meir, and Yitzchak Shamir was something else before as
> >well, but I cannot remember.
>
> Golda, quite correct and Shamir's  I cannot remember either, something
> very Polish starting Zare.. ending "obviously" with a ..ski.

Yezernitsky(sp?)
--
Yigal Arens   "He seems like an average type of man.  He's not, like, smart.
USC/ISI        I'm not trying to bag on him or anything, but he has the same
arens@isi.edu  mentality I have -- and I'm in the eighth grade."     Vanessa
               Martinez, after VP Quayle's visit to her school-LA Times 5/21
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: saroff@uf.msc.edu (Stephen Saroff)
Subject: Re: Smoking during major fasts
Reply-To: saroff@msc.edu
Organization: AHPCRC, Minnesota Supercomputer Center
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 15:30:39 GMT

In article <92224.190604CARIAN@auvm.american.edu>, RABBI CHARLES ARIAN <CARIAN@auvm.american.edu> writes:
|> In article <1992Aug11.183431.26498@uc.msc.edu>, saroff@uf.msc.edu (Stephen
|> Saroff) says:
|> >
|> >I would argue that since smoking is objectively bad for the body,
|> >with no redeming virtues, it is banned under halacha, period ;->.
|> 
|> It's permissible as long as you sell your lungs to a non-Jew. :-)


Nah, that would create strife among nations.  On the other hand, my
spleen is a marvel ;->.
-- 
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Stephen Saroff <saroff@msc.edu>                 o o  The Bear who Swims      
Minnesota Supercomputer Center                  (_)_____o      
1200 Washington Ave. S                       ~~~~(______)~~~~~~~~~~
Minneapolis, MN 5514 <612/626-1854>              oo    oo 

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish