HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mtx014@cck.coventry.ac.uk (Robert Low)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Homosexuality and Christianity
Date: 9 Apr 92 08:13:23 GMT
Organization: Plato's rest home for the incurably geometric

I hadn't intended to involve myself in this thread, since
nothing ever seems to be resolved on it when it arises, but,
like Oscar Wilde, I can resist anything-except the temptation.

In article <1992Apr8.195454.27979@en.ecn.purdue.edu> muehlhau@en.ecn.purdue.edu (John Muehlhausen) writes:
>So God intended for some males to stick their !@#$!@ up another males
>#$@#$234.... To what end?  I think it is _very_ clear that this was not
>intended behavior.  As always I refer only to the sex act.  Sorry to be
>graphic about it.

(a) You have a very restricted idea of which "sex acts" are
available to male homosexuals. But why should I enlighten
you? You can either use your imagination, or read about it.

(b) I quote a source I do not recall.

	The penis, round and smooth, was made
	with anus best to match it.
	Had it been for the vulva meant,
	'Twould be shaped like a hatchet.

End quote.

Moral: Obvious is in the mind of the opinion holder.


-- 
Robert Low  email(JANET): RobLow@uk.ac.coventry.cck
	    smail : Mathematics Department, Coventry Polytechnic,
		    Priory Street, Coventry CV1 5FB, England.
Keep an open mind---but not so open your brain falls out.
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: birdman@nwu.edu (Christopher Kush)
Subject: Radical departure
Keywords: angry young man
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, Illinois
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 16:20:36 GMT

How about a new newsgroup for those of us (cheers, Kent!!!) who are thinking  
clearly? It could be called "talk.life." 

Email with replies

other names...
"talk.religion.real-life-applications.none," or  
"alt.bible-thumpers.die.die.die."

thankslaterbirdman
From: ed_l1@verifone.com
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,talk.religion.newage
Subject: The "After-life"
Date: 8 Apr 92 09:41:26 HST
Organization: VeriFone Inc., Honolulu HI

Well, since everyone else is putting in their two cents about what the
afterlife is (and some being so adament about it - and not allowing
for the beliefs of others), I guess I might as well too.

Trying to describe the afterlife from the limited perceptions and
limited languages with which our bodies are endowed is like a
medieval farmer trying to describe New York City, 1992.  Perhaps worse.

I respect your beliefs, but they are metaphors, symbols, to hint at the
truth that is there, and molded to your individual abilities to perceive.
And corrupted afterward by those who sought political power....

In that "space" that people call an "after-life" there are no questions.
You see the whole picture, and know that everything is just as it is
supposed to be.  You know without thinking, know without "knowing" --
where you are going, what happened, where you are from.  There is no
questioning of authority, but there is no authority outside of the 
authority with which you are one.  There is identity, personal identity,
but there is also oneness.  A seeming paradox, and I can't explain it
or rectify it to you, and I won't be so arrogant to try.

Your religious explanations are like the blind men describing the elephant.
When you get there you will see the whole thing.  In fact, you have been
there, and you have just forgotten.  Look into your heart and see if these
words ring true for you.  Put aside what has been programmed into your
brain for just ten minutes; you can always go back to it later; feel deep
inside where you have come from, and where you are going.

It feels like "Father."  It feels like "Lord."  It feels like "Mother."
It feels like "Love."  None of those perceptions are wrong, but alone
they are incomplete.  My explanations, too, are incomplete.  Don't listen
to me, feel inside youself, look into your heart, take what you feel
there and don't try to explain it, don't try to put it into words, doing
so will only lessen it.  Then go back to what you were doing, and perhaps
you will have a superior understanding of the "after-life."

-- 
===========================================================================
|| Ed L'Esperance - P.O. Box 4635, Kane`ohe, Hawai`i 96744  U.S.A. Earth ||
||   Anthropologist, Writer, Editor    -*-     IN%"Ed_L1@VeriFone.Com"   ||
||   Opinions Copyright (c) 1992 Ed L'Esperance.  All Rights Reserved    ||
===========================================================================

Press RETURN for more...

Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: gclapp@javelin.sim.es.com (Glenn Clapp)
Subject: Re: LDS response to John Meulhausen (part 2 of 2)
Organization: Evans & Sutherland Computer Corporation
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 23:27:54 GMT

In article <1992Apr16.221844.16595@infonode.ingr.com> tensmekl@infonode.ingr.com (Kermit Tensmeyer) writes:
>In article <1992Apr15.235207.348@javelin.sim.es.com> gclapp@javelin.sim.es.com (Glenn Clapp) writes:

>Hi Glenn,
>
>No I don't think I'm confusing this group with another. What ever name
>that they are now using, their theology is more of a response to mormon
>theology. Their set of beliefs have little in common with main stream
>christianity. Most of the people in the group don't last long, either
>the natural apathy takes over or they join a main stream church, thus
>a tendecy to try and convert LDS.  
>
You're right, I think I am.  this Ex-LDS for Jesus group sounds like
something COMPLETELY different from the Ex-Mormons for Jesus group.
(I tried to find their real new name this morning but couldn't.  It 
is "Concerned Christians...." but I don't think "evangelizing" or
"mormonism" are in the title at all (after all)).  Ex-Mormons for Jesus
(or whatever they are now called) has no theology, per se, and is not
a church, cult, etc.  It is a group of Christians who are concerned 
(presumably) for mormons, and choose to evangelize them to Christ.
I believe they are sponsored by an Evangelical Free Church in Whittier
California (I attend an E-Free church myself).  From what I understand,
they don't hold "seminars" etc.  They do have a store-front in Whittier
and a couple of others where people can come and get literature, and
they sponsor missionaries, but that is about it.  Like I said, it does
sound like the group you are talking about is something "else."



-- 
| Glenn Clapp                          |  gclapp@javelin.sim.es.com        |
| Evans and Sutherland Computer Corp.  |  My opinions are my own, but then |
| Salt Lake City, Utah  (801) 582-5847 |  that's my opinion.               |

Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: adams@spss.com (Steve Adams)
Subject: Re: ANDREAS - Read This!
Date: 16 Apr 92 14:49:47 GMT
Organization: SPSS Inc.

asiivo@cs.joensuu.fi (Antti Siivonen) writes:

>adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes:

>>This is directed at Andreas, all other JW's please forgive me....

>>(and this is reposted - I cancelled the original because I left out a very
>>important sentence!  The one about them being women.)

>>SOME JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES ARE FALSE!  (by Andreas own standards!)
>>[I Timothy 2, NIV]

>	Funny that you find a so little error from us, when we talk about 
>	much greater things, like murder, stealing, rape ... and you refer to 
>	the clothing of sisters. 

Not so little error, just that you make a big deal about other religions
being false, and JW's being the true religion.  Well, my point was to show
that by your own standards, JW's are false.

As for murder, stealing, rape, etc, I do not condone, teach or support,  nor
does my church condone, teach or support such things.  I challenge you to
provide me with PROOF of this.

>Personally I've noticed the same thing as you and I'll forward it to the
>sisters I know. 
I wanna know exactly what they tell you! :-)

>	As a contrary my clothes look pretty poor.  :)
Mine too...

 -Steve
--
 The opinions expressed above are those of the author and not SPSS, Inc.
                        -------------------
     adams@spss.com                           Phone: (312) 329-3522
     Steve Adams                              Fax:   (312) 329-3558
From: SECBH@CUNYVM.BITNET
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: re: Gay teens, suicide, and Christianity
Date: 14 Apr 92 15:34:51 GMT
Article-I.D.: CUNYVM.92105.113451SECBH
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center

In article <1992Apr13.233232.5687@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu>,
arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)

>Speak for yourself.  You may think it's pretty clever.

I do speak for myself.  Life and death are not matters of "cleverness".
If you think cleverness was the point you are in desperate need of a
frontal lobotomy.

>talking about someone else's religion like this,
>generalizing to Jews from your experiences with
>Christians.  I am reminded more of the times when not only was Judaism
>condemned as a bloodthirsty religion, but then this
>was used as a reason for
>non-Jews to murder all the Jews they could find.

Eat your red herring, chum.  It doesn't change the facts.

The Hebrew scriptures are used by the Christians as a basic component
of their tradition, and these writings pile book upon book as grim,
bloodthirsty and arrogant as the heroes of any Rambo-type flick.

Check into soc.culture.jewish and you will find recurring discussions
of homosexuality, plenty of homophobia and citations from the
Jewish scriptures galore.  Not one whit different than what goes
down in talk.religion.misc or soc.culture.christian.

>I think you were totally out of line here, especially
>considering even the subject line mentions only Christianity.

In addition to discussions on soc.culture.jewish I have been acquainted
with gay men and lesbians with from families of religious Jews.  I
also do intakes in a clinical services department of a social service
agency which has a large gay male clientele, many of them Jewish.

You are entitled to your opinion.  I purposely expanded to topic to
include the Jewish religion as I thought it was appropriate.
You can jump on your religious high horse as much as you please,
but I quite frankly don't give a damn if the beast is circumcized or not.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Jack Carroll      "The struggle of man against power is the struggle of
<SECBH@CUNYVM>      memory against forgetting."
                                                    Milan Kundera
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,soc.culture.jewish
From: sethr@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (seth.r.rosenthal)
Subject: Re: Gay teens, suicide, Christianity, and Judaism
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 13:34:13 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.jewish

In article <1992Apr15.053641.5137@midway.uchicago.edu>, gross@befvax.uchicago.edu writes:
> In article <1992Apr15.041833.4967@gboro.glassboro.edu>, kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu (Dust In The Wind) writes:
> >
> >Leon Gross writes about Jack Carroll:
> >
> >
> >> No, the cases are different.  The Catholic church throughout many centuries
> >> was very powerful and coercive, and frequently used violence in the name 
> >> of religion. (e.g. crusades, inquisition, etc.)  
> >> This simply isn't true for Jews in the same period.  
> >
> >   The Jewish State was very powerful and coercive, and frequently used
> >   violence in the name of religion (eg, the genocide of the Midianites).
> 
> That was a long time ago, and historians aren't sure what happens.
> We know what happened in Europe, and the effects still are around.
> For example, how many Jews are there in Spain, and how did the Jews
> get to Northern Europe?  Also, the Holocaust didn't come out of nowhere.
> There is a long tradition of anti-Semitism in Europe, and the Roman
> Catholic Church is responsible for part of this anti-Semitism.
> And the Church just renounced the Inquisition at the end of the
> last century.  This isn't ancient history.
> 

And Catholic Hispanics still light candles on Friday nights,
and sit in minyan around the dead today.  Rather remarkable
that the effects are still around.  Small devoted groups of
Marranos are re-converting still to this day.

> >The Jews didn't kill anybody in the Middle Ages, but the armed invasion of
> >Caanan included atrocities that haven't been attributed to the Crusades (can
> >anybody cite an instance of the RCC executing infants?).  I rather suspect
> >that if you add up all the victims reported in Joshua, you'll get a much
> >higher death toll than for the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition combined.
> 
> Sorry, but you're just wrong.  There were many Crusades, not just one.
> They happened over a period of a couple of hundred of years.
> And the violence was not localized to the 'Holy Land' but Jews were
> killed by the Crusaders on the way.  Hundreds of thousands of infidels
> were killed in the 'Holy Land'.  Jews of all ages were killed
> in the Inqusition.
> 

The Rheinland Jewish communities were decimated by the Crusaders.
Both by death (probably in the 50,000+ range)
and by fleeing eastward to what is now Poland.
Many of the ancient Jewish communities of central Europe also were
reduced (Prague, Vienna).

And for those who like t.p.m. type arguments, until the Crusades,
Jews were still a majority in most cities in Palestine, including
Jerusalem, Hebron and Tiberias.  A good case can be made that the
Crusades caused the current Arab-Israeli problem by keeping the
number of Jews so low in Palestine that non-Jews could migrate
there during the centuries following the 13th.



		Seth Rosenthal

Disclaimer: All opinions are my own not my employers'.

Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: ae642@yfn.ysu.edu (Kelley Miller)
Subject: Re: No such thing as atheism...
Organization: Youngstown State University/Youngstown Free-Net
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 02:50:29 GMT


Mr. Yadlowsky....
	You missed one minor point in your disection of the major
thesis of the article.
	The gentleman claims we atheists are trying to disprove
the existence of God...not so...
	Any moron(even christian morons) who can think beyond a 10
year old level realizes that it is logically impossible to "prove"
something doesn't exist.
	I don't know about the other atheists out there, but this
one is no agnostic.  I know there is no god, because the christians
cant prove he DOES exist.

	Kelley L. Miller
	ae642@yfn.ysu.edu

	"...a rose by any other name....would STILL have pricks..."
-- 
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: muehlhau@en.ecn.purdue.edu (John Muehlhausen)
Subject: Re: Homosexuality and Christianity
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 92 00:40:18 GMT

In article <adams.703284892@spssig> adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes:
>
>Again, my personal belief is that atheists may be able to gain salvation.
>Of course, just because I believe doesn't guarantee that I will gain
>salvation.  I too, will have to stand before God and be judged.

The Bible _guarantees_ salvation for Christians.

John M.
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: muehlhau@en.ecn.purdue.edu (John Muehlhausen)
Subject: Re: Homosexuality and Christianity
Keywords: sexuality, attraction, beliefs, Scripture, `Lick!'
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 92 02:43:21 GMT

In article <1992Apr9.230448.19122@spdcc.com> dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer) writes:

>I'm afraid I don't come to that conclusion.  Listen, people aren't
>axioms, and one's relationship with God isn't a theorem.  If there's
>anything worse than talking to an engineer, it's talking to a "born-again"
>engineer--everything becomes an engineering problem!  All you have to
>do is follow the formulas!  Sorry, pal.

This is probably truer than I would like to admit.

John M.
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld)
Subject: Re: Gay teens, suicide, Christianity, and Judaism
Reply-To: er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld)
Organization: Bell Communications Research (Bellcore)
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 92 20:33:45 GMT

In article <3494@daily-planet.concordia.ca>, gsmith@concour.cs.concordia.ca (Gene Ward Smith) writes:
|> In article <1992Apr14.213407.29011@porthos.cc.bellcore.com>
|> er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld) writes:
|> >In article <MIB.92Apr14160646@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu>,
|> mib@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Michael I Bushnell) writes:
|> 
|> >|> Much though Ken Arromdee might not like to admit it, the Orthodox
|> >|> Jewish community has been right up there with the right-wing Catholics
              ^^^^^^^^^
|> >|> and the fundamentalists fighting every gay-rights issue that comes
|> >|> into the popular press.
|> 
|> >Much as I hate to get drawn into this discussion again, I cannot let this lie
|> >pass unanswered.
|> 
|> >The attitude you describe is totally against the beliefs of Orthodox Judaism.
|> 
|> You and Ken Aromdee both should learn whereof you speak before you start
|> talking about lies. THIS IS NOT A LIE. Got that? Staple it onto
|> your forehead and keep it in mind--because if you don't like this kind
|> of activity, maybe you could do something to help. Jewish groups have
|> at times lobbied heavily against gay rights issues. A combination of
|> conservative Jewish, Catholic and Protestant groups have sometimes worked
|> in concert to do so. No lie.

There are fringe elements in every walk of life who seem to have nothing better
to do than make life difficult for others.  I'm sure there are such people
among the Orthodox.  My beef is with the words I marked above - this is not
a concerted effort of the "Orthodox Community", or even an appreciable fraction
thereof.  I do not know of a single synagogue that has organized such lobbying.
I don't know of a single Orthodox publication that supports it, including ones
that are not likely to be read by too many non-Orthodox.  I don't know a single
Orthodox Jew who does such lobbying, or even talks about doing it.  In short,
as I stated above, the actions you decry are not representative of Orthodox
Judaism, on either a communal or individual level.
-- 
Elie Rosenfeld      | "I can see by your coat, my friend,
Bellcore            |  you're from the other side
Piscataway, N.J.    |  just one thing I've got to know; can you tell me please
(908) 699-8800      |     who won?"               - CSNY, "Wooden Ships"
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: adams@spss.com (Steve Adams)
Subject: Re: I Am Not Judging Homosexuals!!
Date: 10 Apr 92 16:56:43 GMT
Organization: SPSS Inc.

cmgrawbu@eos.ncsu.edu (CHRISTOPHER M GRAWBURG) writes:

>That the Bible is relevant to all is from the Bible- not from me.

You say the Bible is relevant to all.  What about those who do not
acknowledge it?  I say it is relevant to me, and use it in my life.  I can
talk about it to others, and witness, but I can not force them to accept
it, not automatically make it relevant to them.

It is not within my rights or duties to force people into my belief system
or force my idea of right and wrong on them.

>People will sometimes refuse to belive simply because it forces them
>to give up an activity. This does not, however, apply to all persons.

It sure doesn't apply to me.  I find following the teachings of Christ
difficult, because I am human.  I continue to strive to do better.  I
claim relevence for myself, but not for anyone else.

 -Steve
--
 The opinions expressed above are those of the author and not SPSS, Inc.
                        -------------------
     adams@spss.com                           Phone: (312) 329-3522
     Steve Adams                              Fax:   (312) 329-3558
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: pmy@vivaldi.acc.virginia.edu (Pete Yadlowsky)
Subject: Re: Homosexuality and Christianity
Organization: Academic Computing, University of Virginia
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 17:27:51 GMT

In article <1992Apr14.155311.21560@athena.cs.uga.edu> hudson@athena.cs.uga.edu (Paul Hudson Jr) writes:

>Marriage that God ordained
>and Christ taught about involves a MAN cleaving to his WIFE.

Does the Bible specifically forbid or condemn same-sex marriages?

>Could he Biblically get married to a sheep?
>Can people marry rocks, fish, or trees?

Human beings are neither sheep, rocks, fish nor trees. The topic is
marriage between human beings. Think, Link. Idiotic analogies are not
going to help your argument.

--
Peter M. Yadlowsky              |         Laden e-mail runs
Academic Computing Center       | Bumbling, creaking through the net
University of Virginia          |         Sysadmins tremble.
pmy@Virginia.EDU                |                      - after Buson
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: smith_w@apollo.hp.com (Walter Smith)
Subject: Re: Why Mormon temple ceremonies are secret
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 12:57:18 GMT

In article <1992Apr11.185223.13793@hellgate.utah.edu> jwindley%asylum.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Jay Windley) writes:
>I argue from a point of view that essential tenets
>of Christianity were lost relatively early in the history of the
>Church. 

The obvious question to a Catholic would be, why did God allow such
a thing to happen?   What was the point in Jesus founding a church
only to have it disappear within a generation?

Also, how do the Mormons view Clement of Rome?

Walter Smith
smith_w@apollo.hp.com
Xref: sparky a.bsu.religion:6 talk.religion.misc:6825 rec.arts.comics:12893
From: 00pebenson@bsu-ucs.uucp (Etrigan)
Newsgroups: a.bsu.religion,talk.religion.misc,rec.arts.comics
Subject: Re: SANDMAN: Lucifer's name and the end of Season
Date: 11 Apr 92 17:53:46 GMT
Article-I.D.: bsu-ucs.1992Apr11.125346.6121
Distribution: usa

> 
>       To return to comics:  what do you think of the ending of Seasons
> of Mists?  I find it very ambiguous, in an unsatisfactory way.  I'm not
> sure what Gaiman is really trying to say.  Is God really unjust in his
> view?  Or did Remiel effectively rebel?  If so, is this how we can under-
> stand the cruelty of his torturing out of love?  (In effect Gaimain is
> saying:  the new hell is paved with good intentions, but they are no
> better than the old?)

I think that Gaiman was definitely trying to show that god is not always just.

By the line in the summary that read " . . .and while some have fallen, others
were pushed" shows that Gaiman wants to illustrate gods unjust use of his will
upon Remiel and Duma.

The last story is also showing that, although when good angels might be 
placed in Hell, they eventually will become corruptedby the place.

Lucifer might not have led a rebellion.  Maybe that's just propaganda.
God needed a juxtaposed concept to make him look greater, kinder, and more
just, so he created Hell.  Someone had to rule it and so he booted Lucifer, who was the
penultimate of Heaven (second to god) and god knew that he could make it look
like there was a rebellion led by Lucifer, because he wanted to be Chief.

When Lucifer left, god needed a knew ruler in Hell.  It had to be angels, for
they were the only ones that he could control.

> 
>                    Kieran Mullen


                   ****   DISCLAIMER   ****

For those of you not familiar with this story (those on talk.religion.misc and
 a.bsu.religion), be assured it is only a comic book and we are only
hypothesizing about what the author is trying to express.


-- 
00PEBENSON@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu |          |           | Paul-Jon Benson          |
-----------------------------|          |           | Wagoner Complex  Box 213 |
"More than I want the        | ========   ========  | The Indiana Academy      |
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