From: kovarik@utkux1.utk.edu (SaintMeechTheChaste)
Subject: Re: A new source of Angst.....
Organization: University of Tennessee Computing Center
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 19:49:28 GMT

In article <1992Sep1.153434.5885@daimi.aau.dk> rorschak@daimi.aau.dk (Jesper Lauridsen) writes:

>>Oh, and what's the difference between the Soviets controlling Poland,
>>and US invading Panama to depose a leader they didn't like? 
>
>Size and duration. Besides Poland never got a chance to have a 
>peaceful/friendly relationship with USSR.
>

Ahem! There are numerous examples of countries which didn't want to have
especially friendly relations with the US, and had their governments 
sacked as a result, who also had no chance to pursue an independent 
course of action.

>>>Hitler stopped inflation and unemployment. Many of your problems will
>>>go away if get your brain removed. 
>>>
>
>>But he was elected because he promised that he would stop inflation, and
>>unemployment.  Remember, Hitler was initially democratically elected.
>
>Which doesn't make much of difference. You were writing that many people
>in the now former Soviet would like to have the old system back because
>that would give peace. I'm pointing out that substituting freedom and
>turbulent politics with peace and dictatorship is a bad idea.
>

The fact of the matter is that that is your opinion.  You are projecting
your values on a society not used to exercising them.   Clearly a case
in point is what is left of Yugoslavia. The different groups there clearly
exhibit no interest in allowing opposing groups to have the rights that
we think are normal. If other people think something is good for them, and
you disagree, do you feel you have the right to force them to do things
your way?

>>>[Saddam Hussein]
>>>
>>>Have you been following the development in Iraq since the desertstorm?
>>>He is not aware that he lost!
>>>
>
>>Have you?  This business is pre-election grandstanding.  The media is helping
>>the Prez score points.
>
>Which President? The closest one is good old Richard von from down south and
>I have never heard him say any thing about Iraq (that doesn't mean that he
>hasn't - it's just that _I_ have never heard him say anything) and he isn't
>even approaching an election. Another one close by is Lech Welesa (spelling
>is way of target) and he hasn't said anything either. Besides his influence
>and interest in the middle east is very limited. 

Actually, what you see in your newspaper there is essentially irrelevant.
The whole point of the exercise is to assist in the re-election of George
Bush. The fact that what he does to curry favour domestically makes newspapers
in other parts of the world does not matter one bit.   

I'm sure GB doesn't care much about the Middle East.  He cares about his
job, and he cares about oil.  

>No, I can't really see how these events that fills my newspapers (of widely
>different political views) can be pre-election grandstanding.

Au contraire!  

>You are overestimating the influence of you government - a much to common flaw
>among your countrymen. The leaders of Iran, Syria and Jordan are by no standard
>good guys, both the rest of those in the area can be dealt with in a sensible
>fashion - the rich oil countries has a much to comfortable status quo to risk
>anything.

Perhaps you feel that your government is independent.  I think perhaps
you ought to speak to some Chileans, some Nicaraguans, some El Salvadorans,
some Greeks (who have believe the CIA was behind the military coup in the
'60s), Palestinians....  Much of the influence, of course, is not 
military, but economic.  The biggest economies have the most influence.
Heck, even ask some Canadians who don't have a history of conflict with
the US about how much independence they feel.

>>Ah, but at this time, in said other example, plans were being made, not
>>excuses for no plans.  Maybe somebody will suddenly discover oil near
>>Sarajevo.
>
>Do you remember the Kurds? Everybody was offended by the no actions of the
>west. Then suddenly something was done and the issue quickly dissappered -
>it went so fast that several signatures were caught off guard.

I just recently read that the Turkish government is operating death
squads who are eliminating Turkish Kurds in the Kurdish independence
movement there.  The Kurds in Iraq, I hear, were quite upset when the US
provided them with weapons in the 1970's to fight against the Iraqi
government in order to pressure Iraq into favourablly settling a border
disput with Iran, then under the Shah's control.  When the dispute was
settled, the arms were cut off, and the Kurdish independence fighters of
the day were wiped out.  I am sure the Kurds do not trust US, but they
will take advantage of whatever benefits they can get while George is
trying to make himself look good.

Remember, we were quite happy to provide arms to Iraq in the war with
Iran, to prevent the spread of Islamic Fundamentalism.  Kuwait even
chipped in many billions of dollars in financial assistance.

						Meech