HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: rec.arts.manga...etc.....
Date: 9 Apr 92 20:54:20 GMT
Article-I.D.: lynx.cbsj29n
Organization: Living in a satellite fantasy, waiting for the night to end.

wai@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Benjamin Wai) writes:

>In article <30rjrhf@lynx.unm.edu> lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble) writes:
>>thwang@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Tommy Hwang) writes:
>>> Maybe I got it wrong, but the discussion over "rec.arts.comics.manga"
>>> seemed to have created a thought of "rec.arts.anime.animation" in my
>>> mind.  If it should be rec.arts.comics.manga, then why was it not
>>> rec.arts.anime.animation for the animation newsgroup?  It did came after
>>> the anime newsgroup in terms of charter time. 
>>
>>Where groups belong is not based on where they should be created.  Anime
>>is a type of animation, so it belongs under rec.arts.animation.  Manga are
>>a type of comics, so it belongs under rec.arts.comics.
>>
>>This has been explained several times already.  You might consider
>>paying attention this time.
>>
>

>	Just a moment of thought...
>	Should the comics newsgroup be Rec.arts.books.comics anyway?
>	Comics ARE books, aren't they? Eh?

No, they aren't.  In colloquial English usage, "book" refers to something
a little more permanent than the form that western comic magazines usually
take.  "Comic book" is a slang term that has its origins in the fact that
the earliest comic books were bound editions of previously-published
newspaper comics, and comics fans will often refer to particular titles as
"books" (as in: "I read all the Marvel books" or "Did the books come in
this week?") but if you ask someone not involved with comics to get you
"that book off the kitchen table", 99 times out of a hundred they're going
to give you the copy of THE STAND they find there instead of the issue of
SPIDER-MAN right next to it. 

At any rate, r.a.c was until recently also the place for discussion of
comic *strips*, which throws the whole "book" thing right out the window
anyway.

(I don't want people to take this as a nasty comment, really, but I have to
wonder how many of the people who are arguing for rec.arts.manga are
non-native speakers of English who aren't interpreting words like "comics",
"manga", and "anime" in the same way that most native speakers would.)

--
Lazlo (lazlo@triton.unm.edu)
Date: 16 Apr 92 00:32:49 GMT
From: axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au (Iain Sinclair)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga vs. rec.arts.comics.manga
Reply-To: axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au
Organization: University of Technology, Sydney

geoffb@coos.dartmouth.edu (Geoff Bronner) writes:
 >Implying that anyone who is 'uninformed' does not have the right to vote
 >no is 100% wrong.

Of course everyone has the 'right' to vote.  Democracy functions best when
people know what they're voting for.  That's all I could ask for.


"Usenet is not a democracy."  -C. Salzenberg

--
Iain Sinclair   axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au                             ne cede.
From: thwang@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Tommy Hwang)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga
Date: 9 Apr 92 17:07:54 GMT
Article-I.D.: mentor.44618
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center

In article <1992Apr9.140222.11884@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> geoffb@Dartmouth.EDU writes:
>
>Well, I live in a house with 10,000 comics which I don't own so I guess
>I'm uninformed. The _charter_ for this group refers to manga as a type of
>comic book. By accepting this charter proposal the supporters of the group
>are telling us (the uninformed) that manga are comics.
>

     To the best of my knowledge, it is the only way to make the proposal
understandable by you (the uninformed).  Correct me if I am wrong.

                                                            -TKH '92
 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
      "Zu dem Tag wollte Ich zurueckkehren."  (emphasis on 'to that day')
      "Ich wollte zu dem Tag zurueckkehren."  (emphasis on 'want')
 "Ich wuenschte Ich koennte zu dem Tag zurueckkehren." (emphasis on 'wish')
                                                 -both KOR movie title.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga
Date: 6 Apr 92 18:33:35 GMT
Article-I.D.: lynx.4+pjqaj
Organization: Living in a satellite fantasy, waiting for the night to end.

dcb@wdl1.wdl.loral.com (David C Blume) writes:

> It is my *honest* (and as objective as I can get) opinion that the
> couplets of [rec.arts.comics and rec.arts.manga], or [rec.arts.comics.us
> and rec.arts.comics.manga] are the appropriate names. 

If you want to run it as a reorganization and change rec.arts.comics to
rec.arts.comics.us or something similar, I could support that.  But as I
said, I disagree about manga on its own as a subhierarchy, just as I
disagreed with strips on *their* own as a subhierarchy . . .

--
Lazlo (lazlo@triton.unm.edu)

If Thurl Ravenskroft and James Earl Jones fought each other, who would win?
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dcb@wdl1.wdl.loral.com (David C Blume)
Subject: "manga" in English
Organization: Loral Western Development Labs
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 22:00:52 GMT

Hmm.  Conty inadvertenly raised a good point in e-mail with me:

>> ... What if an American wrote and drew a book
>>in the so-called "manga" style, but sold it only in the US.  Would that
>>count as manga?
>
>IMHO, that question does not have an obvious answer.  If you say the answer
>is "no", what if that American was Masamune Shirow, who became an American
>Citizen, and decided he wanted to redraw the first [collection] of Appleseed
>because he was ashamed of his (lack of) style in his youth.
>
>To me, that would be manga. ...
>
>Egads, that was a good question.  Manga simply isn't an English word.
>While naming the new newsgroup, we are also defining "manga" in English.

"manga" is already entering the American vernacular.  I think it *is* 
appropriate to use it in the name of a news group.  However, we will be
playing our part in defining the English usage of the word "manga" when
we create the new group. Kind of cool.

--David
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+-----+
| <:-)  -Manga fans, | David Blume            | "..." -Anime fans,    |  o  |
| reading KOR #18    | dcb@wdl1.wdl.loral.com | viewing the KOR movie | ^ ^ |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+-----+
From: michael@dime.cs.umass.edu (Michael Kieras)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: message to Iain Sinclair; apologies to everyone else, but mail bounced
Date: 17 Apr 92 20:23:55 GMT
Reply-To: michael@dime.cs.umass.edu (Michael Kieras)
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst

message to Iain Sinclair:

Iain,
     I tried to reply to your letter, but somewhere out your way the
message bounced around and got sent back to me.  Here's a bit of what
I got back:

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
>>> DATA
<<< 554 sendall: too many hops (17 max)
554 <axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au>... Service unavailable

   ----- Unsent message follows -----
Received: from utsmips.ccsd.uts.EDU.AU by ultima.socs.uts.EDU.AU (5.65/SMI-3.3)
	id AA07246; Sat, 18 Apr 92 04:35:02 +1000
Received: from ultima.socs.uts.EDU.AU by utsmips.ccsd.uts.edu.au (5.61/1.04)
	id AA25584; Sat, 18 Apr 92 04:34:59 +1000
Received: from utsmips.ccsd.uts.EDU.AU by ultima.socs.uts.EDU.AU (5.65/SMI-3.3)
	id AA07238; Sat, 18 Apr 92 04:34:57 +1000
Received: from ultima.socs.uts.EDU.AU by utsmips.ccsd.uts.edu.au (5.61/1.04)
	id AA25576; Sat, 18 Apr 92 04:34:54 +1000

etc.

Anyway, in answer to your letter, if you can dig up the messages, I'll
take a look at them.  Chances are that I've already read them, though,
as I've been following the manga controversy pretty closely.


Michael Kieras
michael@cs.umass.edu
From: sloane@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (Bob Sloane)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: rec.games.frp.misc ( was: rec.arts.frp.misc)
Date: 17 Apr 92 12:41:18 CDT
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

In article <1992Apr15.153221.1076@ncc1701.stgt.sub.org>,
 space@ncc1701.stgt.sub.org (Lars Soltau) writes:
> hades@coos.dartmouth.edu (Hades) writes:
>>    Damnit! I knew this kind of thing was going to start happening.
>>Conditional votes are a really bad thing, and I would really like to see
>>any attempt to use them fail dismally.
> 
> Could you elaborate on that? I happen to think conditional votes are
> not only not harmful but the best method for big reorganizations like
> this one.

Having conditional votes, where some groups are not created if others
don't pass does have some real problems.  Suppose I want to create
sci.frp.aquaria (for discussion of fantasy role playing games
conducted in aquariums:-), which I don't think would pass a normal
vote.  I would just run a vote for rec.sex and sci.frp.aquaria and say
that neither group would be created unless both of them pass.  Would
you be interested in betting on the outcome?

Now I know that this isn't the case with the groups currently under
discussion, but it could happen in the future.  I have seen stranger
things happen in usenet votes. :-) Perhaps we need to think about
creating a precedent like this or we just might start seeing things
like the above.

In the case of renaming rec.games.frp to f.g.r.misc, why not just wait
until the current vote is over, and you know the results, and then
doing the rename?  After all, this is only usenet, not something
really important.  You can wait a few extra weeks for the new name,
can't you, in the interest of not causing problems down the road?
-- 
USmail: Bob Sloane, University of Kansas Computer Center, Lawrence, KS, 66045
E-mail: sloane@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu, sloane@ukanvax.bitnet, AT&T: (913)864-0444
Date:  7 Apr 92 01:41:28 GMT
From: axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au (Iain Sinclair)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.manga vs. rec.arts.comics.manga
Reply-To: axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au
Organization: University of Technology, Sydney

lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble) writes:
 >If you want to run it as a reorganization and change rec.arts.comics to
 >rec.arts.comics.us or something similar, I could support that.  But as I
 >said, I disagree about manga on its own as a subhierarchy, just as I
 >disagreed with strips on *their* own as a subhierarchy . . .

But manga don't really have anything to do with comics apart from being
"sequential art", an incredibly nebulous term of which Western comics are
just a subset.

Some objections to rec.arts.comics.manga:

  - implies that all manga are "comics".  Wrong.
  - implies that manga are less widely read or less popular or have
     less diversity than "comics".  Wrong.
  - utterly pointless without a proper reorganisation of rec.arts.comics.
     (as you admit).

The people who will post to the new group want it to be rec.arts.manga;
the people who won't want it to be rec.arts.comics.manga.   I think
it's more productive to heed the wishes of the former group.

There is another significant objection:  even with low propagation,
traffic in alt.manga has been increasing steadily, to the point where
it will overtake rec.arts.comics' volume in a few months.  There is
already talk of splitting the existing low-propagation group!

A rec.arts.comics.manga would inhibit any such split -- more than four
or five levels of hierarchy is totally undesirable.

These are just a few reasons.



--
Iain Sinclair   axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au                             ne cede.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: ckd@eff.org (Christopher Davis)
Subject: Re: 2nd RFD: SCIA (Is a new CFV really needed ?)
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation Tech Central
	<29EB313E.4CE9@tct.com> <1992Apr14.225749.6817@cbnewsi.cb.att.com>
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 00:27:29 GMT

 alok> == alok.vijayvargia  <alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com> 
 chip> == chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:

 chip> Free clue: 52% _is_ a majority.

 alok> Free clue: These 52 % are outside the USA. Group was not intended
 alok> for them anyway.

Free clue: Try the usa.* hierarchy, then, instead of creating the group
in the Big Seven.
--
Christopher Davis <ckd@eff.org> |    ECONOMIC OBSERVATIONS DEPARTMENT
System Manager & Postmaster     |  "There's always something going out of
Electronic Frontier Foundation  |      business in Central Square."
+1 617 864 0665  NIC: [CKD1]    |   -Rita Marie Rouvalis <rita@eff.org>
Xref: sparky news.groups:10076 rec.games.mud:4792 rec.games.mud.lp:1497
From: downsj@nyssa.CS.ORST.EDU (jason downs)
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.games.mud,rec.games.mud.lp
Subject: Re: Um, okay, I did it.
Date: 12 Apr 92 08:16:01 GMT
Article-I.D.: CS.1992Apr12.081601.20287
Followup-To: news.groups,rec.games.mud,rec.games.mud.lp
Organization: spherical domain of death and darkness

In article <73751@netnews.upenn.edu>,
	lwl@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Lydia Leong) writes:
>In article <1992Apr12.044746.15954@CS.ORST.EDU> 
>   downsj@nyssa.CS.ORST.EDU (jason downs) writes:
>I don't understand the purpose of creating an alt.mud.diku. Do you
>just have some kind of objection to an "official" Diku group, or what?

no, i object to r.g.m.'s classic recycling of old discussions.

>It's still an extra newsgroup, and its purpose would still be to get Diku
>traffic out of r.g.m. and into its own group. If there's enough interest
>for this, why not try to create an official newsgroup?

i, personally, would rather see if they're satisfied with an alt group.

>The term 'Tiny' encompasses the TinyMUD-derived MUDs, the ones that
>focus on socializing. Basically, this is Tiny/TeenyMUD, MUSH, MUSE,
>MUCK, MOO, MUG, and related things like UnterMUD.

no, really?

>The types aren't so dramatically different that a rec.games.mud.tiny
>would leave its readers unable to understand each other. Most of the
>Tiny-related postings in this newsgroup relate to social issues, anyway.

to which i was referring to.

>Protocol says that discussion about newsgroup splits/creations/etc.
>belongs in news.groups. Protocol also says that once a CFD is issued,
>the discussion stays in news.groups.

protocol be damned. i've never seen a bunch of people wanting so much
to move a disucssion to news.groups. i don't like wading through
news.groups, as it gets tiring reading through all the subject lines.

>There are some people who don't want to hear about newsgroup splits.

it's easier to kill a subject in r.g.m. than to search for a subject in
news.groups.

>If you want to read about rec.games.mud being split, go to news.groups
>and look through the subject headers/search for the pattern.

as a matter of fact, i think i will. and i'll be sure to send any and
all follow-ups back to r.g.m.

>Follow-ups to this article directed to news.groups.

follow-ups redirected properly.

-- 
\-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-/
 \           - jason downs -           /\     - downsj@janus.cs.pdx.edu -    /
 / zeppelin/cryvortex/amiga/insane guy \/ note new temporary address above!! \
/-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-\
Xref: sparky news.groups:9931 news.admin:3509
From: mycroft@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Charles Hannum)
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin
Subject: Re: BENDING THE GUIDELINES IS BAD NEWS
Date: 10 Apr 92 04:40:41 GMT
Article-I.D.: mintaka.1992Apr10.044041.20316
Organization: /etc/organization


In article <CKD.92Apr9164725@loiosh.eff.org> ckd@eff.org (Christopher
Davis) writes:
>
> This, I would say, is *explicit* approval for the right of a vote-taker
> or group proposer to ask that a group *not* be created, even upon a
> successful vote.
>
> This *is* sane.  This *is* rational.

No.  This is second-rate politics.  Why don't I just start a vote for
each one of the groups separately, if this one falls through?  There's
nothing in the "guidelines" saying I can't do that.

This is an example of why the world is losing so badly.  You're using
the guidelines as a rulebook, and finding ways to work around  it to
reach the goal.  That's not the intent, and it's not right.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: brunner@kazoo.ssd.loral.com (Brian Brunner)
Subject: Re: RFD:  rec.arts.dragonlance
Reply-To: brunner@kazoo.ssd.loral.com (Brian Brunner)
Organization: Space Systems/Loral
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 11:52:51 GMT

I believe the *art* side of frps is not in its' proper place
in rec.games.frp. Drawings and images and discussions of
perspective and horzon and critiques of works belongs more elsewhere.
rec.games.frp is very much game centered.

The posters wanting to make a dragonlance art group...
a rec.arts.fantasy group makes more sense, seeing
that a dragonlance artwork and an ewok artwork are not
too unrelated.

--
HELP!! Somebody slapped a "stop payment" on my sanity check!!
brunner@kazoo.ssd.loral.com; Space Systems/Loral; Palo Alto, Calif.
Black Holes... the /dev/null of the Universe; the opinion of 65534.
From: magundi@gaul.csd.uwo.ca (john macdonald)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: No New Enya News Group!!
Date: 9 Apr 92 22:29:30 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept., Univ. of Western Ontario, London, Canada

In article <12390@auspex-gw.auspex.com> johnf@Auspex.COM (John Fereira) writes:
>In article <1992Apr8.180706.6109@julian.uwo.ca> magundi@gaul.csd.uwo.ca (john macdonald) writes:
>|In article <frnk.702743924@cs1.bradley.edu> frnk@cs1.bradley.edu (Paul Ondercin) writes:
>|>In <1992Apr7.232621.7778@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> Kamchatka Charlie (kamchar@ibm.cl.msu.edu) writes:
>|>>                                            There's an alt group for that
>|>>already; if you can't get it at your site, FTP it.
>|>   The alt group was created as a direct result of the rec.music.enya RFD. If
>|
>|No, alt.music.enya was not created as a direct result of the RFD.
>
>You`re right. alt.music.enya was created as a direct result of 
>alt.music.enya.puke.puke.puke.
>

No.
alt.music.enya was not created as a direct result of 
alt.music.enya.puke.puke.puke.

john
Xref: sparky news.groups:10119 rec.music.misc:14136
From: etmmato@sunshine9.ericsson.se (Marcel van Tongeren)
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.misc
Subject: Mandalaband
Date: 13 Apr 92 11:10:58 GMT
Organization: Ericsson Telecom, Stockholm, Sweden

Hi,

A couple of years ago I heard this great album of the Mandalaband "The Eye of Wendor".
As far as I now it was never released in The Netherlands (I only have a copy on tape).
Last week a read something about a debut album of the Mandalaband (SI-magazine) this
album is from the year 1975 and is available on CD. Can anybody tell me some about this 
album, like which artist are on it and which style etc. Also does anybody know if "The
Eye of Wendor" is available on CD ?

Thanks

Marcel.
Xref: sparky news.groups:10504 soc.culture.indian.american:1819
From: rdippold@cancun.qualcomm.com (Ron Dippold)
Newsgroups: news.groups,soc.culture.indian.american
Subject: Re: 2nd RFD: SCIA (Is a new CFV really needed ?)
Date: 17 Apr 92 04:00:09 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Qualcomm, Inc., San Diego, CA

chohan@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Harpal Chohan) writes:
>>Are you now convinced that the group is needed ? Are you going to vote 
>>for it ?

>I don't know. I might if you stopped acting like you owned it.


Ditto.  More than one person is most likely voting against it because
if it passed alok would just become completely insufferable.
-- 
But you shall not escape my iambics.
From: bkottmann@falcon.aamrl.wpafb.af.mil (Brett Kottmann)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RESULT: misc.activism.{progressive.d,misc} fa
Date: 14 Apr 92 15:02:19 EST
Distribution: world
Organization: Logicon Technical Services, Inc.

In article <a_rubin.703193354@dn66>, a_rubin@dsg4.dse.beckman.com (Arthur Rubin) writes:
> In <1992Apr13.181307.16316@uunet.uu.net> jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
> 
>>The voting period for the groups misc.activism.{progressive.d,misc} has ended.
>>Both proposals failed to achieve the necessary margin of 100 more YES votes
>>than NO votes; therefore, both proposals have failed. Neither proposal even
>>got 100 total votes, in fact...here are the results:
> 
>>Proposal 1: 57 to 26...margin 31, percent in favor 68.674699
>>Proposal 2: 52 to 31...margin 21, percent in favor 62.650602
> 
> So a vote to unmoderate misc.activism.progressive is in order?   :-)
> 

	Heh.  That would enliven the net for a while :).

Brett---------------------------------------------------------------------------
____________The best thing about morning________________________________________
__________________________________is that it's over by noon.____________________
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Xref: sparky news.groups:10522 soc.culture.indian.american:1821
From: alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia)
Newsgroups: news.groups,soc.culture.indian.american
Subject: Re: 2nd RFD: SCIA (Is a new CFV really needed ?)
Date: 17 Apr 92 14:58:49 GMT
Followup-To: poster
Distribution: usa
Organization: AT&T

In article <rdippold.703483209@cancun>, rdippold@cancun.qualcomm.com (Ron Dippold) writes:
> chohan@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Harpal Chohan) writes:
> >>Are you now convinced that the group is needed ? Are you going to vote 
> >>for it ?
> 
> >I don't know. I might if you stopped acting like you owned it.
> 
> 
> Ditto.  More than one person is most likely voting against it because
> if it passed alok would just become completely insufferable.
> -- 

It always amazes me how shallow and sadistic people can be at times :)


Alok
From: frnk@cs1.bradley.edu (Paul Ondercin)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: No New Enya News Group!!
Date: 8 Apr 92 14:38:44 GMT
Organization: Bradley University

In <1992Apr7.232621.7778@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> Kamchatka Charlie (kamchar@ibm.cl.msu.edu) writes:
>                                            There's an alt group for that
>already; if you can't get it at your site, FTP it.
   The alt group was created as a direct result of the rec.music.enya RFD. If
rec.music.enya passes I will ask for the deletion of the alt group. (rec groups
are more formally known and recognised than alt groups.)

	 Frnk! :>
--
_____________________________________________________________________________.
!________Paul Ondercin, owner of "THE MACHINE", a 486 of epic power!__________!
|frnk@bucs1.bradley.edu   frnk@buhub.bradley.edu   frnk@camelot.bradley.edu   |
|frnk@cssun1.bradley.edu  frnk@cssun2.bradley.edu  am417@cleveland.freenet.Edu| 
!_________ponder@heartland.bradley.edu_____________ae198@yfn.ysu.edu__________!
!___Frnkfrnkfrnkfrnkfrnk!!!___|_Just a little penguin that can only say Frnk!_!
!_*YOU* think you've got problems?_Ever worry about being eaten by a walrus?__!
Newsgroups: news.groups