HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: schuette@roadkill.nrl.navy.mil (Larry Schuette)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: lee load master - any owners
Date: 13 Jan 93 04:14:23 GMT

I'm contemplating the purchase of a lee loadmaster.  To
put it in perspective, the choice is between the $100.00 lee turret
press or the $180.00 load master.

I was wondering if any owners were willing to report to the net on their
Load Master purchase.

Also, didn't anyone get a new press for Christmas?  I'm surprised that no
suddenly obsolete presses haven't been advertised :)

I load the usual smogasbord of pistol and rifle (38WCF, 45ACP, 223,
30-348, 8 X 57) cartridges.  I usually resize and decap before polishing,
but I can see where a progressive would be useful for other steps.

Someone else recommended reading the Blue Press article about the
Load Master, which I intend to get on Wednesday(check out Dillon's ad 
in the latest issue of Shooting Times - it's got Mike Dillion 
piloting a MD-500C helicopter with a multibarrel cannon mounted 
below.  - His target?  A Load Master getting destroyed).

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
	"Another running gun fight...Destroyer gunning...Wahoo running"
							"Mush" Morton
Lawrence C. Schuette			  schuette@roadkill.nrl.navy.mil
Code 7133				  (202)767-2739  
Naval Research Laboratory		  (202)767-5561 (fax) 	
Washington D.C.	20375-5350
From: Orakel@sarpih.no (Jens Kr. Kirkeb)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Blueing
Date: 7 Jan 93 23:59:18 GMT
Organization: stfold Ingenirhyskole

Is there anyone out there who knows how to restore the original blue finish 
on a vintage(?) revolver?
From: fist@iscp.bellcore.com (Richard Pierson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Large capacity magazines: design of...
Date: 7 Jan 93 23:59:42 GMT
Organization: Bellcore

#A friend and I were thinking about building a .22LR gatling gun... 
Just
#got to get the TMs for the feed mechanism for a chain gun, dump alot of
#.22LR into the hopper and power up the electric drill... :-)

#Somebody else made a similar remark, and I got to thinking: just how
#difficult *would* it be to make a hopper-magazine for a .22 semi-auto?

There is a gun shop just outside of Stroudsburg PA on
rt 611 (up in the Poconos) called "Bills" right next
to the Beaver house (no it's a steak house, however up 
the road a ways in Tobyhana ah never mind) He has or had
(been a while since I was there) a hand built .22 gatling
gun patterned after the Colt, complete with rotorary drum.
It works and was built by a machinist complete with a real
nice wood cassion and super detailed. It is about 2 feet 
high and 3 feet long. Beautiful.
-- 
##########################################################
There are only two types of ships in the NAVY; SUBMARINES 
                 and TARGETS !!!
#1/XS1100LH	#2/10/10/92
Richard Pierson E06584 vnet: [908] 699-6063
Internet: fist@iscp.bellcore.com,|| UUNET:uunet!bcr!fist  
#include <std.disclaimer> My opinions are my own!!!
I Don't shop in malls, I BUY my jeans, jackets and ammo
in the same store.
From: pmod@pfbs.philips.se (Par-Mikael Odsater)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Speaking of .32 H&R magnum
Date: 8 Jan 93 22:22:24 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment BCFI AB, Sweden


Hi!
: 
: What I am wondering is whether it would be possible to convert some of the
: European pistols that use the .32 S&W long (?) cartridge to use the
: magnum.  I haven't seen many of them and suspect it wouldn't work, but
: would like to hear the net's opinion(s) on the subject.  It would make a
: nice pistol if it could be done.

I don't think there are any pistols that can be modified to carry .32 H&R.

The pistols I am thinking of are the following:
Hammerli P240 (old model)
Hammerli 280 (new model carbon and steel)
Pardini SP32
Walther GSP
Benelli MPE90
Sako
Unique DES/32


By the way, if someone has a S&W N-frame (only the frame) for sale,
Please contact me.

Cheers,
--
 Par-Mikael (P-M) Odsater       |  Internet:  pmod@pfbs.philips.se 
 Digital Equipment BCFI AB      |  UUCP:      ...!{backbone}!dakotaS!idanm!pmod
 Box 904                        |  Phone:     +46 8 759 4928
 S-175 29 Jarfalla, Sweden      |  Fax:       +46 8 621 1718
From: fountain@bach.udel.edu (Eric Randolp Benson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Full auto rate of fire
Date: 4 Jan 93 23:14:24 GMT
Organization: University of Delaware

In article <1i9p52INNcbi@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bz269@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (James D. Del Vecchio) writes:
#
#In a previous article, dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) says:
#
## Well, my MAC-11 is 1400 according to the book, and when loaded hot
##cycles even faster.  It's far too fast to be useful as an SMG.  The Army
##supposedly did a study (it's mentioned in Janes, I think) and determined
##the optimum rate of fire for an SMG as 350 RPM.  The Thompson ran about
##450 depending on the variant, and was a close as anyone ever got.
#
#1)  How does a designer retard the rate of fire in a SMG?
In 1988-9 Janes Infantry Weapons, they talk about a "heavier tungsten insert
which increases the bolt mass and thus keeps the rate of fire down to a
practical figure." (P.94, talking about the Mini-Uzi).  
Basically, if you increase the weight of the bolt, it's going to take
more energy to move and it's going to accelerate slower, retarding the
gun.
I assume on a gas action gun (few SMGs are) that you would just change
the vents or gas pistons, but I'm not sure about that.
#2)  How come nobody can get 350 fps? 
				^^^ RPM.  
I remember hearing ROF figures for semiautomatics in the same range, but
they were paint guns, not 'real guns.'  Just glancing through Janes,
it seemed like the average full auto ROF was around 600.
#3)  I assume cook offs are less of a problem for closed bolt  
#guns when a pistol caliber is used, and even less so when the 
#rate is lowered.   How slow/fast does it take to make a diff?
Don't know, but most machineguns (I believe) fire from the open bolt
because even if you only shoot 200 rpm (suggested sustained fire on an
M60), the gun is still going to heat up.  The M60's open bolt and within a
few minutes (5? 10?) you are supposed to change barrels.  Unless you can
slow up the gun and come up with some way to force feed air into the
chamber, you will still run into a problem.
#
#	They made a smaller .380 version, which seems kind
#of more silly.  
Not totally.  They describe the Mini-uzi pistol as having the best
qualities of an electric drill and a pistol.  At least with .380, you
don't have quite the recoil problem.
# 
#Jim Del Vecchio 
Eric Benson
Fountain@brahms.udel.edu
From: cby@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (christopher.b.young)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Question: NJ Gun Laws
Date: 7 Jan 93 23:59:13 GMT
Organization: AT&T


This is my first post to a newsgroup; please bear with me :-)

Can anyone give me a brief summary of, or point me to, info on New Jersey 
Gun Laws? I'm considering purchasing a handgun, but I'd like to know what 
I can do with it once I have it. My (informal) understanding is that the 
laws in NJ are pretty restrictive (e.g., no CCW, separate gun and ammo 
for transport, etc.). I should also point out that I have experience with 
hunting weapons, but am pretty new to the world of handguns.

Thanks much, hope I haven't wasted anyone's time here...
Chris
From: erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Full auto rate of fire
Date: 11 Jan 93 23:30:56 GMT


Jim Heath writes:
#Just for curiousity, is there a difference between the late 1800s Gatling
#and the "chain" gun that is now called a "Gatling" (other than the
#electric motor).

Gatling Guns are not the same as Chain Guns.

Gatlings work the same way now as they did 100+ years ago. As the barrel/
bolt assembly is rotated, the bolts are forced to reciprocate, and perform
other tasks, by a cam track on the inside of the fixed "receiver".
The source of power - hand crank, electric, hydraulic, or air motor
- is pretty much designer's choice. Gun function remains the same.

The Chain Gun is a more recent invention, a single barreled gun which uses
a motor-driven chain assembly to impart bolt motion. Like the
Gatling, this allows varying the firing rate by varying the motor speed
as opposed to self-powered (gas, recoil) guns which have a "natural"
firing rate based on the design of their components.
From: mjalava@lk-hp-20.hut.fi (Mika Matti Jalava)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Class III Question
Date: 8 Jan 93 14:07:22 GMT
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology

In article <1ih5tjINNjnk@sauna.cs.hut.fi> weba@robocop.cs.hut.fi (Veijo Paavali L{nsikunnas) writes:

#Yeah, the Suomi SMG is very rugged and reliable, but the drum magazine
#is a really painful to fill. Well, when I think of it the magazine is the
#most unreliable part of the gun...

Yes, Veijo knows what he's writing about. The gun itself is extremely
reliable, but when I was training night shooting to some new guys in
the army with this oldie, we had about 10% of the magazines fail.

BTW, the gun itself is made much more like a rifle than an SMG, eg.
the quality of the work is very high, it is quite accurate (well, as
much as a 9mm gun can be) and quite expensive. It is also very heavy.
I don't remember the actual numbers, something like 5 kg (over 10 lbs)
at least full loaded. Anyway, even without the compensator that some
of the guns have, it is very controllable. You can empty the magazine
quite easily without having the muzzle rise at all. Shooting single
shots the recoil feels like a .22 lr.

Nice gun. Too bad the time has gone past that kind of military weapons
a long time ago. But the Valmet m62 (an AK clone) rifle that has
replaced the Suomi SMG (and Nagant-style rifles) is quite a nice gun,
too. But the oldies still have some look and feel that the new ones
cannot match.

	Mika
From: mrr1@Ra.MsState.Edu (mark r rauschkolb)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: DCM question
Date: 11 Jan 93 23:30:48 GMT
Organization: Mississippi State University


	I just got my paperwork to "apply" for a DCM M1, and they
require fingerprints.  I was wondering if anybody knows what happens
to these fingerprints (or any other fingerprints that you need to 
buy a weapon).
	(Do they check to see if you are already on file, and then 
discard them, or do you then end up on file with the FBI or whoever?

Enquiring minds want to know!

Thanks

Mark
mrr1@ra.msstate.edu
From: petekunz@iiic.ethz.ch (Peter John Kunz)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Glock 18 Discussion
Date: 12 Jan 93 18:27:36 GMT
Organization: Dept. Informatik, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH), Zurich, CH

In article <1993Jan12.014753.6960@bbxrbk> bbx!bbxrbk!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Russ Kepler) writes:
#In article <1993Jan11.164307.1736@neptune.inf.ethz.ch> petekunz@iiic.ethz.ch (Peter John Kunz) writes:
##was there a discussion on i missed? well, if there are any questions, my friend has one and i'll try to answer.
#
#Oh, great, now you say something.  *After* I've left Switzerland...
#
#"It's better to be quotable than to be honest" - Tom Stoppard

sorry, bu i think he got it after you left. he also has a beretta 93...
if anyone can post gifs, i could mail him/her some pics to scan...

on firing teh 18: sounds mean. at the local range wehre we tested the gun,
we put up an ipsc target shoit at weith the 18. after some practice, one
guy (danr, i didn't even get to try. bummer) got all 33 shots onto the
target in one burst. took 1.8 seconds. 

best way to use teh glock 18 in a shoot out: aim teh gun at the leftmost target,turn 90 degress, pull trigger and enjoy. you won't have to worry about moving the gun, just make sure it moves to the irght on one line :-)


cu
-pete



-- 
Peter J. Kunz	Vogesenstr. 60	4106 Therwil	Switzerland
petekunz@iiic.ethz.ch	pkunz@amiga.physik.unizh.ch
From: hays@SSD.intel.com (Kirk Hays)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Shooting Straight Up
Date: 8 Jan 93 14:05:55 GMT
Organization: Intel Supercomputer Systems Division

In article <1993Jan7.183906.24286@sol.ctr.columbia.edu>, brown%ccit08@uunet.UU.NET (Jason Brown) writes:
|> In article <1993Jan6.164626.14780@news.eng.convex.com> tford@convex.com (Tom Ford) writes:
|> # I heard a local news report on New Years Day about people shooting off guns in
|> # town to celebrate the new year, not a smart thing to do.  I was wondering
|> # what are the ballistics like for a falling bullet after it has been shot
|> # at near 90 degrees elevation.

[incorrect analysis omitted]

|> 	What does this mean?  Well, if you shot the bullet, and then stepped
|> into the spot you fired the gun from, when the bullet came down, you'd be dead.
|> 
|> 	Of course this little exercise does ignore a few things though.  Some 
|> energy will be lost due to air friction and converted to heat, though not much
|> if it is a very aerodynmic bullet.  Also, the shot has to go straight up and
|> straight down as well.

I am sure others will provide a more in-depth analysis, but are you familar with
the terms "friction", "ballistic coefficient", and "terminal velocity?"  In a
vacumn, your analysis is valid, but with atmosphere, you are very incorrect,
probably, at a guess, by an order of magnitude for common bullets.

To enlighten, consider why a bullet doesn't maintain its muzzle velocity at
100 yds, 200 yds, etc.  Gravity isn't slowing it down, when it is fired
horizontally.  Friction with the air is, however.

As always, Hatcher's _Notebooks_ are the definitive reference for this question. 
Unfortunately, my copy is several hundred miles away.  Anybody?

-- 
Kirk Hays - NRA Life.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing."  -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
From: wmartin@STL-06SIMA.ARMY.MIL (Will Martin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Source for manuals
Date: 8 Jan 93 14:07:39 GMT


Every now and then someone posts a request for a source for a manual
covering takedown, operations, and suchlike info for this or that surplus
weapon (recently I've noticed such regarding SKS, P-38, M1 Carbine, and
some others).

Write or call these people for their catalog -- it contains many books 
on all sorts of gun-related and survivalist topics, including reproductions
of military or factory manuals, newly-written books on specific firearms
and general classes or types of guns, and manuals on modifications to
various popular firearms:

Delta Press
PO Box 1625
215 S. Washington St.
El Dorado, AR 71731-1625

800-852-4445 or 501-862-4984

FAX 501-862-9671

Regards, Will
From: ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Black powder vs smokeless, some numbers
Date: 5 Jan 93 14:55:13 GMT
Organization: Circle 'C' Shellfish Ranch, Shores of the Pacific, California

#From 'Cartridges of the World' by Frank C. Barnes.

Pg. 108:  32-30 Remington 
	Bullet 	Powder/grains	MV	ME
	111	4198	14	1650	673
	115	FFg	35	1430	528

Pg. 107:  32 Ideal
	115	FFg	38	1425	524
	150	Fg	25	1250	526
	150	4198	12	1330	596

Pg. 139:  50-70 Musket
	350	3031	38	1310	1333
	450	3031	36	1270	1611
	450	Fg	70	1260	1488
	450	4198	26	1410	1987

Pg. 86:  38-40 Winchester
	180	Unique	10	1285	665	Max. for revolver
	180	Bullseye 4	735	214	revolver load
	200 	Unique	 8	900	365	revolver load

	(while no black powder load is given, the 38-40 name indicates
	a black powder load of 40 grains.  )

pg 89:  44-40
	200	2400	17.5	1310	765	RIFLE ONLY
	200	Bullseye 5	775	270	Revolver load
	200	Unique	 8	880	348	Revolver load
	250	Unique	 7	780	275	Revolver load

	(again, the name only indicates a BP load of 40 grains.)

All in all, a facinating book well worth buying...

Usual caviates apply, don't try this at home, don't put smokeless
in a black powder gun, it is your fault if you hurt yourself, noone
recomends that you do anything that could get you hurt, and every
thing could get you hurt, etc.



-- 

E. Michael Smith  ems@apple.COM

'Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it.  Boldness has
 genius, power and magic in it.'  -  Goethe

I am not responsible nor is anyone else.  Everything is disclaimed.
From: bobd@marune.acs.ohio-state.edu (Bob DeBula)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Speaking of .32 H&R magnum
Date: 5 Jan 93 23:15:28 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University

In article <1993Jan4.163801.17740@CERIS.Purdue.EDU> jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath) writes:
#
#What I am wondering is whether it would be possible to convert some of the
#European pistols that use the .32 S&W long (?) cartridge to use the
#magnum.  I haven't seen many of them and suspect it wouldn't work, but
#would like to hear the net's opinion(s) on the subject.  It would make a
#nice pistol if it could be done.


AIYEEEEEEEEE! That was a scream of anguish. The only European .32 S&W
autoloaders I can think of offhand are the SIG/Hamerlis (P-240?).
If I spent ~$1,000+ on a top quality .32 S&W target pistol, I would
hestitate for quite a while mulling over whether 
I wanted to mutilate it for a few fps velocity. The SIG/Hamerli's are
designed for fairly light midrange .32 S&W full wadcutter loads,
if I remember right. There would be a lot to consider before
expecting it to handle full house .32 H&R Magnum loads. 

Besides, SIG/Hamerli might just send a factory rep to repossess
the P-240 (?) if they get wind of what you're planning :-). They
are reputed to be exquisite pistols as they came (come?) from the factory.
-- 
==========================================================================
              Disclaimer: These are my views, not the U's

        "If it's in the paper it must be true!" --- D. Doright
From: bhv@boilerbob.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Armor Piercing Pistol
Date: 4 Jan 93 23:14:52 GMT
Organization: Motorola, CCR&D, CORP, Schaumburg, IL

In article <2381.7.uupcb@chaos.lrk.ar.us> dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) writes:

) The density of the material is a problem, as it's difficult to imagine
)a 75 grain projectile being worth much against Kevlar.  Perhaps a steel
)cap on a lead bullet would be more effective?  You'd also have lead or
)jacketed lead against the rifling.
)
) Since I have a lathe and a press, perhaps I should experiment.
)                                                                                                 

This has been argued about before :-)

Given a bullet of a specified shape and diameter that is hard enough not to
deform too much or fragment, penetration in wood and armor plate
should be roughly proprortional to bullet energy.  This is not true for
ballistic gel, however, where penetration is roughly proportional to m*v^.5
instead of m*v^2.  The later (penetration of ballistic gel which is
representative of penetration of a living target) is where heavier bullets
seem to come into their own.

Refs:

"Defensive Handgun Ballistics", Carroll Peters  (wood and ballistic gel)
"The Design and Development of Fighting Vehicles", Ogorkiewicz (armor plate)

bbx!bbxrbk!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Russ Kepler) has been doing some actual
experiments with rifles and some old armor plate (not handguns, however).
So far he has only gotten penetration of the plate with rounds specifically
designed for it (last I heard).

I maintain that Kevlar should act like wood and armor plate - others don't
seem to agree - conclusive experimental data hasn't been posted (far as I
know). I agree that it makes sense for AP rounds to be pointy (or at least
not blunt) and find the argument that pointy rounds are especially important
for Kevlar plausible.  I still find it difficult to believe that a .38 bullet
can be pushed through a Kevlar vest without breaking the fibers as seems to
have been suggested though.  [I could easily believe it of something thinner,
like a fletechette.]
From: miles@ms.uky.edu (Stephen D. Grant)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Nationwide Sports Distributors
Date: 8 Jan 93 22:22:50 GMT
Organization: University of Kentucky, USA. -5 GMT

I have not sealt with them.
But as far as great service, I can reccomend:

Sports South
Accu Sports
From: hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Case Trimming
Date: 8 Jan 93 14:06:04 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University

In article <1993Jan7.161821.659@CERIS.Purdue.EDU> jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath) writes:
#After our club meeting last night, one of our rifle shooters was asking
#about progressives for reloading .308 and .30-06.  I would be interested
#in recommendations for this, I thought the Lee Loadmaster or Dillon 650
#(or 1050) could be adapted to feed cases and auto-indexed [2 of my
#criterion ;-{)], but we couldn't come up with a way to automate trimming
#his cases.  He said he had to do it every time (It sounded to me like he
#might be loading them a leetle bit hot.).  I am interested myself, since I

  He could have excessive head space and be stretching his cases that
way.

  Another possibility is that the expander ball in his resizing die
needs to be fixed.  If the ball is rough (especially the top end
where it enters the neck on the upstroke to expand the neck) then
it will also tend to pull the neck longer and move metal upwards.
For some reason (perhaps because it isn't visible when the die is
assembled) the manufacturers don't seem to do a good job of finishing
and polishing this.  It is not hard to do yourself (see the Sinclair
manual for illustrations and explanations) by chucking the unit in
a drill press or lathe and using strips of find grades of abrasive
paper.  Be sure not to decrease the diameter of the body.  Also,
lubricating the inside of the neck (with a non-powder-contaminating
lube) can also help.

#hope to start reloading .308 and maybe the .30 (7.62x???) Russian
                                                      39
#(presuming I can find brass for the Russian, most of the stuff I have seen
#is copper coated steel).  Does anyone make an automated case trimmer? 

  There are many motor driven ones, but I haven't seen any "full-auto"
ones.

  For a bolt-gun (for your .308?) the Lee Collet Die set doesn't seem
to lengthen the necks at all, and needs no lube at all.
# ...

--henry schaffer