HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: v107smub@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Balakrishn Nair)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: WOMEN AUTHORS : Any recommendations ?
Date: 14 Sep 92 21:37:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

Hi there,

I am interested in getting to know about some women authors
who write about feminist related issues.  A list of well
known authors would be highly appreciated.  Thanks a ton.

Bala.
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Subject: Areas of Feminism (was Sexism: Defined)
Followup-To: alt.feminism
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, Illinois, USA
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 02:52:51 GMT


In article <wqtn3!j.payner@netcom.com>, payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne)
wrote:
> So what then are ""the major effect(s)" of feminism. You keep alluding to
> them, how about a simple list, no need to go into any details.

I don't have the time to try to put together a really well constructed list
at the moment, but I have something on-line I wrote in another context that
may syggest what I am thinking of. This is not a list of achievements, just
of areas where feminists have been active. 

(I originally wrote this in an e-mail discussion about different
ideological flavors of feminism.)

>As yet another counter to trying to look at feminism entirely in
>terms of ideoligical categories, consider its various goals and
>activities.  I think I could list a number of specific spin-off
>sub-movements from feminism, and as I suggested in another posting
>these have coherence as schools of thought, though the are drawn
>together by an activity.
>
>(One connection we may make is what activities form our entry points
>into feminism and how are we engaged with it on a continuing basis.)
>
>Some examples of "sub-movements":
>
> Consciousness raising
> Socialization of Childern
>
> Legal Rights
>   ERA
>   Employment/ Housing/ Insurance / sex as a Civil Rights category
>   Reproductive Rights
>
> Women's Heath
> Lesbian Rights
> Womyn's Books/Music/Art
> Women's Peace/Anti-Nuclear
> Wages for Housework
> Compariable Worth
>
> Women and Religion
>   Christian Feminism
>   Jewish Feminism
>   Feminist Wicca
>   Woman Church
> 
> Self Defense
> Take Back the Night
> Anti-Pornorgraphy
> Feminist sex radicals
> Addiction/Codependence
>
>I know I'm leaving out big things in the list above, but I'm trying to
>suggest how feminism hung together not only around the "big
>picture" of ideology but also around what women were *doing*.
>

I think feminism's activities in all these areas have had social impact --
though I measure this more broadly in terms of changing lives, rather than
only laws passed.
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: pentangl@spdcc.com (Scott Moir)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: Choice for men
Date: 14 Sep 92 11:27:10 GMT
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <716452802@lear.cs.duke.edu> gazit@cs.duke.edu (Hillel) writes:
>In article <1992Sep13.221346.824@cco.caltech.edu> 
>peri@cco.caltech.edu (Michal Leah Peri) writes:
>
>>Yeah.  And those condoms sure do mess up the guys' hormones and give
>>them headaches, nausea, and aggrevate high blood pressure.  Poor men!
>
>Have you ever heard about the contraceptive foam (98% effective)?
>Have you ever heard about the diaphragm (97% effective)?
>Have you ever heard about IUD (97% effective)?
>What about the cervical cap or the contraceptive sponge?
>And for general information: the condom is 95% effective,
>the minipill is 97% effective and the Pill is 99% effective.
>
>In short, presenting it as condom or the Pill is not very accurate.
>You ignore several other birth control methods which are as effective.

They were ignored for a reason. The other forms of contraception that
you mention will do nothing to stop the transmission of HIV.

(Why was the Followup-To: line set to alt.feminism?)

Scott

-- 
Scott Moir / Pentangle / Satyr ______ # "There's really only one requirement 
pentangl@Ursa-Major.spdcc.com  \ \/ / #  for a Prophet, and you've got it."
B4 f t+ w g k+(+) s+ m r p+     \/\/  # "What's that?"
These are my opinions, not SPDCC's    # "A mouth." - 'God' to J.R.'BoB' Dobbs
From: dchuk@netcom.com (Denise Chuk)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: Star Trek Opening
Date: 10 Sep 92 16:46:59 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)


>In article <1992Sep9.134803.21357@panix.com> smeyer@panix.com (Seth Meyer) writes:

>Nothing to do with feminism, but this is alt.feminism.  :)  The one
>thing Roddenberry didn't seem open to is including lesbigay people in
>the series.  I can understand that for the original, but not ST:TNG.

>I still think ST:TNG could go a long way in having women in more
>non-traditional occupations.  Right now we see a female physician and
>a female empath--both very nurturing.  The engineers, the security
                                                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
>people, and most of the officers are men.  Most of the aliens they
>deal with are male or have male personas.

>I guess I should followup to rec.star.trek...

Well, originally ST:TNG had a woman as the chief of security.  It was only
when Denise Crosby (who played Lt. Yar) wanted out that the male Klingon
took over as chief.

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
**Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent**--Salvor Hardin
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: wag5@quads.uchicago.edu (john peter wagner)
Subject: Dworkin dead
Reply-To: wag5@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 23:11:49 GMT


	Ok. So have any of you Dworkin haters taken seriously
the idea to take up a collection of, say, $1000.00 and hire an
ex-KGB assassin to waste her? I didn't think so. Put up or shut
up.

			J. Wagner

P.S. Weanies.

Newsgroups: alt.feminism,rec.arts.startrek.misc,alt.sex.startrek
From: anthony@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Anthony J Stieber)
Subject: Re: STNG episode about homosexuality
Summary: turbolifts are standing room only
Keywords: turbolift,sex,shuttle-back-seat,fully functional,Picard Maneuver
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 04:14:49 GMT

In article <1992Sep12.214422.25397@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> Joe.Francis@dartmouth.edu (Joe Francis) writes:
>In article <1992Sep12.032956.10243@leland.Stanford.EDU>
>farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf) writes:
>> etc.  Heck, I was hoping Ensign Ro (spelling?) would turn out to be
>> lesbian, but there was that episode about her and Riker.
>grabs.  I keep hoping Wesley will come back from the academy, and that
>he and Riker will discover their true feelings for one another.

What about that studly Jean-Luc?  Here's a quote:

From some Boston Star Trek convention TV coverage I saw:

Question: Is Picard having an affair with Crusher?
Patrick Stewart: "Do you mean Wes or Beverly?  What do you have in
mind?  What you have seen in the scenes on TV is all there is."
--
<-:(= Anthony Stieber	anthony@csd4.csd.uwm.edu   uwm!uwmcsd4!anthony
    "Usenet is a right, a left, a jab, and a sharp uppercut to the jaw.
     The postman hits! You have new mail."  Edward Vielmetti
From: zen@death.corp.sun.com (d)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Dworkin and her positive contributions to feminism?
Date: 10 Sep 92 12:02:07
Organization: savage hackers
Distribution: alt
NNTP-Posting-Host: death.corp.sun.com


  She does seem to come up a lot.  Many people have said that she has
been quite influential in feminism, and that many people agree with her.
What I'd like to know is if anyone on the net actually agrees with what
she says.  I have never (physically) met anyone who agrees with her, or
even one that thinks she's anything but a loon, if not a provocative
loon at times.  I've seen one post on the net (just recently), in over
ten years of net time (how long has dworkin been around/popular,
anyway?), in which someone has actually defended her ideas as something
to seriously consider.  Even the mention of her name is an emotional
issue -- someone says "dworkin", and people think "oh, those crazy
militant feminists, just ignore them."  She's frequently used as a
weapon, as evidenced by the posts by anti-feminists, but almost never
by feminists; indeed, they mostly just seem embarassed by her.

  It's my contention, as I've said before, that she is only important to
the anti-feminists as a tool to use to bash the more moderate (and
intelligent ;-)) mainstream feminists.  Does anyone think that she has
made any *positive* contributions to feminism?  Does anyone agree with
her?  I'm really tired of hearing about how she speaks for all kinds of
feminists.  I don't know what the official party line for the larger
feminists groups are -- someone said that they don't denounce dworkin,
but do they denounce anyone that claims to be a feminist?  Are they
chicken, or do the major groups ever take a stance against women?  I
honestly don't know.  I really don't think she has any bearing on
reality for many people; I'd welcome references, parables, quotes,
thoughts or citations that show something to the contrary.

  Sigh.

 -- d
From: jeff@aiai.ed.ac.uk (Jeff Dalton)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: Sweeping Generalizations About Men By Feminis
Keywords: rebuttal defending feminism strawman
Date: 8 Sep 92 19:02:01 GMT
Organization: AIAI, University of Edinburgh, Scotland

In article <715956423@lear.cs.duke.edu> gazit@cs.duke.edu (Hillel) writes:

>Dan Quayle is a joke, and quite a few republicans know that.
>In feminism, we are talking about non-fiction books which are
>taken seriously, are sold in millions of copies and bash men.  E.g:
>
>#When men are men, slugging it out among themselves, conquering new land, 
>#subjugating new people, driving on toward victory, {\it unquestionably}
>#there shall be some raping.
>                        --  (Susan Brownmiller, "Against Our Will)

Has Against Our Will actually sold millions of copies?
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: clavazzi@nyx.cs.du.edu (The_Doge)
Subject: Birds of a feather (was:Hating Men with Full Force)
Summary: They deserve each other
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 92 15:46:48 GMT

In article <SK73171.92Sep5150317@kaarne.cs.tut.fi> sk73171@cs.tut.fi (Kiiskil{ Sami) writes:
>
>In article <21987@galaxy.ucr.edu> starbuck@ucrmath.ucr.edu (aaron greenwood) writes:
>
>> Consider the quote from Jacsun Shah, a reporter from the Houston Chronicle
>> one more time.
>
>> >->   "Yes, I am a man hater, yes, I am a feminist. and why not?
>> >->    Women are dying . They die every day, at the hands of men.
>> >->    Men ... beat them, rape them, dismember them. Hell yes, I
>> >->    hate men ... To all of you women out there, I say _hate_.
>> >->    You have every right to ... I knew the kindest thing I could
>> >->    do for the women of this world is to hate men with full force."
>
>Nice.
>What if you women sometimes read the newspapers instead of continuous
>soap-opera watching. 
[deleted: standard statement that hate never solved anything]

>Fortunately the nuke buttons are still under control of men, who know
>their responsibility, otherwise we all might just be radioactive dust
>floating in the space.
	Sami, meet Jacsun.  Ideal couple.  Both complete prisoners of their 
own prejudices and stereotyping.
	By the way, Sami, all those nasty examples of hatred and warfare you
cited are "under the control of men".  Don't you think that makes your last
sentence just a *little* silly?
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>: Money isn't everything, : Sami Kiiskil{  ( The { means 'ae' ) :   Nothing   :
>: . . . there is also     : e-mail : sk73171@ee.tut.fi          :     is      :
>:  H i g h - T e c h  ! ! : phone : 931-180690 or 934-428254    : impossible. :
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
	The .sig speaks for itself.
The_Doge
ObQuote:	"The first time Adam had a chance, he laid the blame on
		 woman."	-- Nancy, Lady Astor

>--
From: Joe.Francis@dartmouth.edu (Joe Francis)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: Forward to the Past: Quote Choice for Men Unquote
Date: 13 Sep 92 03:08:18 GMT
 <716320428@lear.cs.duke.edu>  
 <MUFFY.92Sep12153146@remarque.berkeley.edu>
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0a4@newshost.dartmouth.edu

In article <MUFFY.92Sep12153146@remarque.berkeley.edu>
muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy) writes:

> I see.  So, what you don't want is a *publically* "pro-feminist" forum?
> Why would that be?  I thought the whole point of, for example, this
> group, was to allow people to say whatever they wanted to, publically.
> Of course, I know this is really for the anti-feminists, but still...it
> only seems fair to give feminists a forum too...

Do you really mean this?  alt.feminism is unmoderated.  "Feminists" are
free to post here, and there is nothing "anti-feminists" can do about
it.

Please tell me you don't believe that a newsgroup has to be moderated
in order to have participation from feminists.

Frankly, I'm very happy about this group.  Soc.feminism failed to hold
my attention, and I believe that this was due to the moderating.  I
find that I am having no desire to unsubscibe to this group, however. 
Like many moderated/non-moderated duos, this group has a higher noise
ratio, but I've seen a number of interesting articles, and it's been
satisfying to be able to participate freely in the discussion without
running into difficulties with the moderators.
Newsgroups: alt.feminism,soc.women
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: perception of pressures (was Re: Feminists ignore Cosmetics?)
From: moselecw@elec.canterbury.ac.nz (C.W. Moseley)
Date: 5 Sep 92 14:46:12 +1200
Followup-To: alt.feminism
 <BtywGK.M6J@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> <3SEP199200564638@vaxa.weeg.uiowa.edu> <Bu0x2x.5tH@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
Distribution: world
Organization: Electrical Engineering, University of Canterbury, New Zealand

slaury@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Susan Laury) writes:
> But, a man's preferences are just that. And so are mine. I may
> think you look better in a suit and tie than in sweats, or better
> in blue than in red. Whether I pressure you to wear one or the
> other, or decide how I feel about you based on what you wear is
> another question entirely.

however, in my experience women are more likely to get upset and challenge
a person on what they perceive as attractive. Women are also more likely to
see that as a pressure to change to match the definition they receive.

What I get is, sure, it's OK for me to have whatever opion I like on the
subject, so long as I never express, in any way, an opinion that could
be construed as a pressure to conform.

ie: I can think Pink eyeshadow makes you look gorgeous, but must not say
so in a way that (may) make you want to wear it for me...

Although, some pressures are OK - demanding that women at least know some
feminist theory is fine, expecting them to be subtley feminine is required
etc.

Part of this is that I tend to express myself very definitely - if I like
something, I will say 'I think that looks gorgeous'. Or, "no, I prefer
women who don't wear makeup", when actually I mean, here and now, in this
context, gorgeous ; or ".. often".

MOZ
Xref: sparky alt.feminism:793 soc.men:16100 soc.women:16290
From: gazit@duke.cs.duke.edu (Hillel Gazit)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism,soc.men,soc.women
Subject: Re: women in engineering ( help..)
Date: 8 Sep 92 18:08:43 GMT
Reply-To: gazit@cs.duke.edu (Hillel)
Followup-To: alt.feminism,soc.men
Organization: The Piranha Club

In article<1992Sep8.145411.15165@panix.com> gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch) writes:
>But then along comes Academia and "engineering" and, lo,
>90% of the students are male.  Isn't that interesting?
>When the status quo is "the men get the good jobs" that's
>an accident, or some kind of mystical nature-nurture
>thing, and research indicates we can't change it.  

I've met quite a few male engineering students who did not like the
subject but were there because of social/economical pressures.  *If*
you want women to be as successful then you have to pass them via 
the same destructive pressures, with the same destructive results.

The idea in feminism is that there is some way for *women* to 
avoid that - to get the same paychecks as men without being 
expose to all those non-feminine destructive pressures.

When it does not work we start to hear shouts about discrimination...

P.S. have you ever tried to guess why asians, on average, are better
engineering students than whites?  Hint: it has nothing to do with
genetic, language or discrimination against whites.
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: shafer@pioneer.arc.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer OFA)
Subject: Re: Born a Feminist? (was: Sweeping Generalizations About Men By Feminis
Organization: NASA Ames Res. Ctr. Mtn Vw CA 94035
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 92 21:01:21 GMT

peri@cco.caltech.edu (Michal Leah Peri) writes:

>sheaffer@netcom.com (Robert Sheaffer) writes:

>>>That is a silly argument. One is born a Jew.. 

>Not so.  An infant boy becomes a jew when he is circumcised, traditionally 
>on the eighth day after his birth.

And how do infant girls become jews?

--
Mary Shafer  DoD #0362  NASA Ames Dryden Flight Research Facility, Edwards, CA
         shafer@pioneer.arc.nasa.gov shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov
                     Of course I don't speak for NASA
From: gazit@duke.cs.duke.edu (Hillel Gazit)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: Choice for men
Date: 10 Sep 92 20:30:46 GMT
Reply-To: gazit@cs.duke.edu (Hillel)
Organization: Nefolet shel nemushot (Fallout of Wimps)

#I think that Norplant or IUD as a condition for welfare will be fair because
#the woman will have to do something that helps society in exchange for the 
#welfare, but I don't think that most of the "choice for women!" feminists 
#will agree that *their* reproduction right will be under such attack...

In article <BuDL0z.51I@encore.com> aaldrich@encore.com (Al Aldrich) writes:

>I don't agree with this, but I am curious..do you also condone men
>getting a vasectomy as a condition for receiving welfare?

You may have a point only if he asks for more and more welfare 
for more and more kids.  (Fat chance...)

I don't like the idea of vasectomy because it is pretty expensive to
reverse and the reverse success rate is not great.  It seems to me 
reasonable, to say to men and women on welfare, that if you will have 
any more kids then you will not get anymore welfare, and you can have 
the state help in financing the birth control method of your choice.

(Note that republicans, like the California governor for example,
push to such a reform while quite a few liberals object.  They
really believe that a woman has a fundamental right to have as
many kids as she wants at someone's else expense.)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: carmien@tramp.Colorado.EDU (CARMIEN STEFAN)
Subject: Re: Shake Your Body
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 16:33:28 GMT


Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: ecsd@tfs.com (Eric C. S. Dynamic)
Subject: Re: flame naming (ataylor's inconsistency)
Organization: TFS
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 22:32:54 GMT

Fitch, Gordon and Muffy are easy handles. Barkocy is not; it took a while
to read it properly. The first take was "Barokcy" or similar, a (I think)
Hungarian name pronounced "barok-see", because there is a waltz with that
name. "Barkocy" I am guessing is Hungarian too, and pronounced either
"bar kaht see" or "bar koht see", another guess.

I call people what they want to be called, and without instructions I
choose whatever is easy or seems to fit their personality.
So there may not be any consistency in use of first and last names.
Quite often things are not done with any intent at all and bear no
hidden meaning.

The rest of the shameless, endless nonsense in this stream, I call it
over with for me. This is achieved via "/ataylor/:j".
Xref: sparky alt.feminism:834 soc.men:16127 soc.women:16316
From: gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism,soc.men,soc.women
Subject: Re: women in engineering ( help..))
Date: 8 Sep 92 21:39:43 GMT
Organization: mydog in exile

gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch) writes:
| >1.  Once upon a time from one-third to one-half of the
| >programmers I observed were female.
| >2.  Credentialism happened and programmers became "engineers."
| >3.  90% of the new "engineers" are male.
| >4.  Programmer workforce will become more skewed toward males
| >than it was.
| >So or not so?

gazit@cs.duke.edu (Hillel):
| Gordon once again participates in the liberal (in the non-classical sense)
| propaganda of "proving" by statistics.   ...

I didn't "prove" anything.  I gave the description of an
appearance, and asked for facts and opinions.  If you want
to hit your target, you have to keep your eyes open.  In
other words, read the articles past the first knock-off
point.

And while I've got your attention, Hillel, I'd like to
comment on some other material you've posted.  You don't
seem to be able to make an argument without including 
tiresome ad-hominem attacks, as above.  I'm not interested
in it.  Would it help you get beyond this problem if I
stipulated in advance that I'm a communist, a socialist, a
feminist, a liberal, a fool, a skunk, and all-around just
plain bad?  What else don't you like?  How about if I say
I'm a transvestite homosexual drug-addicted bingo-player
who goes to stupid movies and listens to rap?

See, then there wouldn't be any _need_ to include in each
and every posting referring to an article of mine that I'm
bad.  We'd all know it in advance, and we could go on to
other things.

Like....

hg:
| 1) Once a job becomes high paying, men are willing to make 
|    much more effort to get into it.
| 2) In the industry (especially small companies, where most of
|    the growth is) one is judged more by what one achieved and
|    not by his/her degree.

You may be right about the second point; I don't know.
The job was always high-paying.  It was just out of the 
control of the academic system for about fifteen years.  If
we agree that the field is being -- what would the word be --
patriarchalized? -- then the evidence would seem to be that
the problem lies in the authority systems of Academia and the
(big) corporate world.  Now, that would make sense to me,
since as far as I know, Academia has been the home of the
fiercest opposition to any kind of equality for women.  Those
who read soc.feminism may recall the article I posted about
Jenny Harrison [1] a few months ago.  That was stuff taking 
place in 1992, not 1892.
--
[1] "So That's How It's Done", by Susan Ervin-Tripp, re-
printed with brief commentary in soc.feminism in June, 1992.  
If you want a copy by email, write to me as gcf@panix.com for 
one.
-- 
 )*(    Gordon Fitch    )*(    gcf@panix.com    )*(
( 1238 Blg. Grn. Sta.,  NY NY 10274 * 718.273.5556 )
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: Sexist Incidents
From: moselecw@elec.canterbury.ac.nz (C.W. Moseley)
Date: 8 Sep 92 17:19:01 +1200
Distribution: world
Organization: Electrical Engineering, University of Canterbury, New Zealand

biesel@javelin.sim.es.com (Heiner Biesel) writes:
> They certainly do. The most recent issue of Scientific American has
> an article on sexual differentiation of the human brain. One of the
> interesting differences that emerges is that mammals, primates in
> particular, engage in rough-and-tumble play primarily among male
> young.
> 
> Perhaps these "...well intentioned and politically correct men..."
> are following the dictates of their biological makeup, rather
> than the transient pressures of current fashion.

so I'm a monkey now?

well ta very much, thank you.

more formally, perhaps:
monkees also : do not drive cars
             : climb trees
             : eat leaves, sticks and live insects
             : throw food
(etc)

are you saying all these should be encouraged BECAUSE monkees do them...
and your infant will not be discouraged from them...
MOZ