From: alanf@tekig6.PEN.TEK.COM (Alan M Feuerbacher)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Stop thinking? (Was: Why I am an atheist)
Date: 13 Sep 92 05:58:04 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.

In article <1992Sep12.195213.7490@ac.dal.ca> hartigan@ac.dal.ca writes:
>In article <adams.716310684@spssig>, adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes:
>> hartigan@ac.dal.ca writes:
>
>Re: God's schizophrenia
> 
>>>Okay...but why? Couldn't God waive his own rules?  Especially regarding a
>>>price to be paid to himself by himself?  I still don't understand.
>> 
>> If God had waived the rules, that would have violated justice.  Of course,
>> now you'll ask why he didn't wave that one...the point is, that God
>> demonstrated mercy and justice, and still followed the rules.  The price
>> HAD to be paid somehow by someone.
>
>Why _didn't_ he waive that one?  If we say that God had no choice but to
>be just (i.e. he couldn't just be merciful)  then aren't we saying that
>God has no free will?  Aren't we saying that he is _determined_ by the laws
>of his own nature?
>
>If he _did_ have a choice, then he sacrificed himself to himself 
>pointlessly, and the result is that lots of his kiddies are going to Hell,
>because they don't believe this rather bizarre story.
> 


   With regard to the ransom the Bible says Christ had to
pay to God to redeem mankind, the choice of whether a ransom
had to be paid or what the price had to be is not restricted
by any justice that exists apart from God, since God suppos-
edly defines justice, and so the choice is entirely God's.
He could have done anything he wished, so the above claim
that God HAD to handle things the way it is claimed is
false.

   This is illustrated by Biblical passages where God is
said to handle justice according to the needs of the moment.
One example of this is shown by what God did in the case of
King David's committing adultery with Bath-sheba and having
her husband killed to cover it up.  He broke commandment
after commandment, against coveting, stealing, adultery and
murder.  Bath-sheba was also guilty of adultery, and both
came under the clear sentence of Deuteronomy 22:22:

   In case a man is found lying down with a woman owned
   by an owner, both of them must then die together, the
   man lying down with the woman and the woman.  So you
   must clear away what is bad out of Israel.

   God gave no exceptions to this law, but in this case he
chose to handle the matter differently, which, one might
argue, the Judge of all the earth had a right to do.  He did
not blindly apply the letter of the Mosaic law that he him-
self had given to the Jews and "like for like," but tempered
justice with mercy, as well as taking into account other
considerations.  One of these considerations was that God
showed David mercy because of the covenant God had made with
him for the kingdom.  What was in the covenant?  2 Samuel 7
says God told David:

   .... I shall certainly make for you a great name, like
   the name of the great ones that are in the earth.... I
   shall certainly raise up your seed after you, which
   will come out of your inward parts, and I shall indeed
   firmly establish his kingdom.  He is the one that will
   build a house for my name.... When he does wrong I
   will also reprove him.... As for my loving kindness,
   it will not depart from him the way I removed it from
   Saul.... And your house and your kingdom will cer-
   tainly be steadfast to time indefinite before you;
   your very throne will become one firmly established to
   time indefinite.

   To keep these promises to David, God was willing to
sidestep the Law he gave to the Jews.  He simply wanted his
word fulfilled, and if David died according to the Law, that
would be impossible.  Also, the Bible says God had special
affection for David.  So God was willing to adjust the
application of principles such as "like for like" _when he
wanted to._  Similarly, any claim that God HAD to do
something to satisfy the needs of justice ignores the
explicitly arbitrary nature of God's justice shown in the
Old Testament.

Alan Feuerbacher          |  As long as you think you have the truth, you
Tektronix, Inc.           |  will feel no need to pursue knowledge and
PO Box 500, MS 47-623     |  understanding.
Beaverton, OR  97077      |  There is often a difference between good
alanf@atlas.pen.tek.com   |  sound reason and reasons that sound good.