HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Subject: Re: Who cares
Reply-To: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Organization: LaserMaster Technologies, Minneapolis, MN
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 20:01:32 GMT

  In response to;

>The native americans preached peace and love, harmony with neighbors.
>They backed off, making room for the Europeans, letting the settle.
>-The European's need more land.  Let us give them more land.  Until
>the Europeans took almost everything away, creating destruction
>wherever they went. 

  Jeff Heimberger writes;

>"Yes, and this occurred more years ago than I can count.  It was
>unfortunate, disgraceful, and wrong.  But, what can we do now?  Pack
>all people of European descent onto boats and back to their country of
>origin?  No.  However, we can all benefit by showing the American
>society at-large how the heritage of Native American peoples enriches
>our lives every day."

  Pop over to alt.native and check out the argument going on about,
oh, let's just say for example, the Mt. Graham observatory.  That's been
getting a lot of posts lately and should be going on by the time you
get there to look.

  It's still going on, Jeff.  It wasn't more years ago than you can count.

  When did the last American Indian die in America for "war crimes"?

  When did Little Big Horn happen?

  When was the Minnesota Massacre?

  When was the last anti-spear-fishing protest that got violent?

  My grandparents were here for the start of it (on each side), my parents
grew up in the midst of it, and I remember the sixties.  It's still going on.

  IMHO, if we're not going to honour the treaties, we should give North and
South Dakota, Minnesota, Wisconsin,  Northern Michigan, plus New Mexico,
and Utah, and probably the Appalachians to whatever tribal representatives
want to take over the governance of those areas.  Current residents can
keep living there, but when they run out of inheritors, the land returns to
the tribes.  All taxes collected in these areas go to the tribes for distribution
to the cities, counties, and townships.  In My Humble Opinion, this is never
going to happen.  I support it, but it's not going to happen.

  Anyway, this isn't stuff I just feel bad about in a past sense, it's stuff I
feel bad about right now.  Right here.  On a daily basis because it's
still going on and hurting people who I love and there's damned little
that I can do about it other than be supportive, try to be empathetic
(realizing that I'll probably never completely understand), and do what I
can in the political arena without getting my own rights snatched out
from under me.

  I think I hear what you're saying, Jeff.  I probably don't, but I think I might.
Some of us are living this on a daily basis, and it hurts to hear someone say
that it's over, and that we've survived and can crawl out of the past.

  This isn't ancient history, it's yesterday and today and probably tomorrow
in a lot of places.

  Blessed be, Ciaran.
From: mkkuhner@phylo.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Who cares
Date: 26 Jul 92 16:07:03 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

As long as you define, even in metaphorical language, the sin of the
patriarch as being a white man, rather than being an oppressor, you will
make it practically impossible for white men to adopt your
recommendations.  I can put aside my attitudes and my actions, but my
race and gender are givens.  I cannot change them, and I would only be
lying to myself if I denied them.

Storm/Mary Kuhner mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu
(okay, a white woman, but the point still holds!)
From: wolfe@wolves.uucp (G. Wolfe Woodbury)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: New group details and comments.
Date: 28 Jul 92 04:50:09 GMT
Followup-To: alt.pagan
Organization: Red Wolfe @ The Wolves Den
X-Md4-Signature: 46e3fca77869857cab43cbee4560b5f9

In article <1438@lysator.liu.se> ceci@lysator.liu.se (Ceci Henningsson) writes:
>My suggestion is, that we start a soc.religion.pagan group.
>
>That would give the news group a)more STATUS and b) make it more
>widely AVAILABLE.

	The details of starting a group are full of subtle traps and the
whim of the net is swift to change. :-)

	The major thought here is that we want a "soc.religion.????"
group, but there is a problem.

	ALL the other soc.religion.* groups are moderated groups, and to
successfully pass a vote to place a group here, we will need to make a
moderated group.

	The alternative is to place a group in its obvious location of
"talk.religion.pagan" which is where the unmoderated groups "belong" in
terms of the way the major players of news.groups think.  [I is a "majur
playur" in one of my alter egos on the net :-)]

	The desire I am reading from the discussion, though, is that
there is more interest in providing a more specific channel for the
folks that are "wiccan" in their orientation.  (Correct me if I'm
wrong.)

	A well planned campaign for alt.pagan.wicca can get us the
desired specific group, with relatively few hassles over getting the
group honored.

	The traffic for a new alt.pagan subgroup would propagate along
the same channels that are in place, since few of the sites are going to
have a "alt.pagan,!alt.pagan.all" specification in place already.  A
well worded request posted in the appropriate places would allow us to
get the new group without much hassle.

	I am quite afraid that an attempt to get an unmoderated
soc.religion.pagan would be unwise.

	I think it is high time to try for a talk.religion.pagan
newsgroup in the  main hierarchies (deferring the .wicca question for
the moment.)

	I'm still collecting "straw poll" indications.

			Wolfe
-- 
G. Wolfe Woodbury @ The Wolves Den UNIX, Durham NC         [use the maps!]
UUCP: ...dukcds!wolves!wolfe   ...duke!wolves!wolfe    <Standard disclaimers>
Domain: wolfe%wolves@cs.duke.edu    wolfe@cds.duke.edu
    Above all, we celebrate.   Celebrate the Circle Statement of Purpose
From: D_NIBBY@UNHH.UNH.EDU (Dana   Nibby)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Orgonon
Date: 23 Jul 92 12:30:58 GMT

T R I P  T O  O R G O N O N  (Wilhem Reich Museum)

* Arriving August 1st (saturday), departing sunday (2nd)

* located 10 miles west of Rangely, Maine on rt 4.
  5 hour drive from Boston.

* See Reich's research laboratory, orgone boxes,
  cloudbusters, etc.

* Cost is $3 for a 1 hour tour (paid to the museum)
  Make your own lodging arrangements.

* Meet other net people.

 We plan to rendezvous on saturday. Leave me e-mail
 for the time of rendezvous.

     Dana - D_NIBBY@unhh.unh.edu
From: homer@korova.uucp (Homer The Brave)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Firewalk
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 03:01:39 CDT
Organization: VHF void tube of the mind

O'Neil> Several have also been challenged to try the stunt on a steel
O'Neil> sheet heated to half the temperature of the coals. Oddly, they
O'Neil> have always declined. Positive thinking sessions are great,
O'Neil> but con-men who use cheap parlour tricks to make money are
O'Neil> not.

donal> Ciaran, please do not let Tim's doubts or scientific
donal> explanation reduce the power of your vision. Do what you would
donal> dare, and know that you CANNOT fail.

Mr. O'Neil: I would challenge you to walk across the coals,
knowing what you know, without some apprehension.

Seems to me that in most worthwhile things, ritual is most of
the reward. For instance, if you're driving cross-country
tomorrow, you'd better be preparing today, or the experience
could be very bad.

People seem to set themselves up for negative experiences all
the time... Why not rejoice in people setting themselves up
for positive experiences? That's what firewalking and things
like it are all about, near as I can tell. Psych yourself up
for something that maybe you're not sure is completely safe,
and then accomplish it. Rock climbing. Whitewater kayaking.
Bungee jumping.

Mr. Donal: An affirmation that a person cannot fail is merely
an affirmation. Maybe years of suburban living have made me
cynical, but it can be hard to pull those
peak-firewalking-experiences into daily life. Especially when
the phone's ringing and the computer won't boot right. :-)


--
              VHF void tube of the mind (713) 492-2783
        "where you can find the Zeta Greys SAFEWAYING themselves
                into the WONDERBREAD *heart* of America!"
From: ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: stereotypes - and a request
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 12:45:25 EST
Organization: Ailanthus Project

pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey) writes:

> Hmm. Would you find all those qualities in Buddhist monks? Catholic nuns?
> Tribal people? I just don't know G. I have never in my life been physically
> threatened by women, I can not say the same of men. I've known some whom
> others might call dikes or scooter trash or hoes or even the great Southern
> expresion; cheap white trash. I guess I just don't hang out in the right
> neighborhoods. Berkeley must have really changed since I was up there last
> month. Has the People's Republic been overrun by women already? Meet the
> new boss, same as the old boss, eh?
> 

*excuse me* (insert appropriate icy tones here), but i AM a dyke, i call 
myself a dyke, other people call me a dyke too.  that does not make me a 
whore, scooter trash, cheap white trash, etc.  care to retract that or 
apologize for it?

that you have never been physically threatened by wimmin is beside the 
point.  that does nmot make all wimmin sweetness and light, nor does it 
give you the right to go throwing around gratuitous insults.
 
                                       -ailsa

ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com   or   io81409@maine.maine.edu
 
are you on fire         what will replace the rent with the stars above,
from the years,         replace the need with love,
what will you give      replace the anger with the tide,
for your kid fears?     replace the ones, the ones, the ones that you love?
From: tmhoff@oogoody.Corp.Sun.COM (Todd Hoff)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Who cares
Date: 22 Jul 1992 16:25:50 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: tmhoff@oogoody.Corp.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: oogoody.corp.sun.com

>No more than your leap to my accusing you personally for perpetrating
>every crime against minorities just by blowing off steam and trying to
>get PROFITABLE discussion started.

Hmm, I think I'm suffering from the afterburn of entering into the middle
of a thread. I didn't accuse you of anything, I don't even know what
you are talking about, I was just responding to someone elses post that touched 
off thoughts I have had for a while.

>Major leap, there.  Don't fall.

Perhaps a minor trip.



Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: sallyb@qiclab.scn.rain.com (Sally Bowley)
Subject: Re: a neat-looking star I saw recently
Keywords: star, herbs 
Organization: SCN Research/Qic Laboratories of Tigard, Oregon.
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 02:40:16 GMT

In article <2A68A354.19347@noiro.acs.uci.edu> cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>Back to more mundane topics . . . for the moment!
>
>Also, does anyone know a good herb to take to relieve headaches?  I'm
>trying to wean myself off the Advil and Nuprin (which is why I asked
>about cramp stuff; when I got my period, I used to pop 'em like M&M's.).

'lo again janis! i've tried a tea of hops, scullcap and catnip for
headaches (from diane stein's book "all women are healers") and it 
seems to work, altho the taste leaves a bit to be desired! and i had
to search for a while before i found a herborium that sold scullcap.
she also recommends wintergreen, peppermint, nettles or white willow -
i've tried the peppermint, but it seems to ease stomach problems more
than headaches. as far as cramp stuff goes, i've found an *excellent*
tincture callled "full moon" which contains cramp bark, wild yam root,
black cohosh root, pulsatilla, raspberry leaf, ocotillo bark and
cornsilk. phew! does the job tho, and tastes good too. you can get
this from phyliss hogan, winter sun, 18 e. santa fe ave, flagstaff, az
86001. i think it was about 5 bucks for a 2 oz bottle. you use about
20 drops in hot water. good luck.
sally

>Blessings and thanks for info,
>Janis 
>
From: jblain@ac.dal.ca
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: RE:Misogyny (etc.--PHarvey)
Date: 24 Jul 92 13:29:28 GMT
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

In article <1992Jul22.174656.26545@cis.umassd.edu>, cscionti@UMASSD.EDU writes:
> It's obvious to me why men are afraid of women; it's 'cause they're scary
> (women, that is).

This doesn't seem "obvious" to me, only circular. To say anyone is afraid of
something because they are "scary", fearsome, etc is tautological. Why are 
women perceived as "scary"? Who perceives us as "scary" . . .? 

(Note that I said "perceived as", not "are". I don't consider I'm "scary" . . .)

-- 

	Jenny		Jblain @ ac.dal.ca
__________________________________________________________________________
	I was in many shapes before I was released:
	.....
	I was a path, I was an eagle, I was a coracle in seas;
	I was a bubble in beer, I was a drop in a shower;
	I was a sword in hand, I was a shield in battle.
	I was a string in a harp enchanted nine years, in the water as foam;
	I was a spark in fire, I was wood in a bonfire;
	I am not one who does not sing; I have sung since I was small.

						[from The Book of Taliesin]
From: tmhoff@oogoody.Corp.Sun.COM (Todd Hoff)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Who cares
Date: 22 Jul 1992 00:27:40 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: tmhoff@oogoody.Corp.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: oogoody.corp.sun.com

In article 29940@noiro.acs.uci.edu, cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>You carry NO guilt for what was done by people long since dead.  But
>when you do nothing to help the situation get better, you DO bear guilt
>for perpetrating it even tacitly.
>

Sounds like we all should be guilty about most everything in the world then.
I'm sure many 1000s of situations exist in the world right now that you
nor I are helping and therefore must bear guilt. Is this like original sin?
I guess doing your best is good enough anymore. Apparently I have to
do what someone else thinks is my best.

>And I'd like to see women just once boycott the cosmetic industry, or go
>for a good solid month without shaving our legs, even though THAT (and
>nothing else that I've said so far) is stereotypically feminist.
>

I've never understood why females wear all that goop. I implore my SO
not to wear hose and makeup, no go.

>
>>I reject this out of hand. You are witch burning and don't even realize it.
>
>Oh so much bullshit.  He isn't witch burning.  All he's saying is that
>if you bitch and moan about White Oppression, why aren't you equally
>bitching about other forms?
>

Well, at least my words fertilize. How do you know I am not
bitching about other forms of oppression?

>If you do nothing to rectify a bad situation, YOU ARE GUILTY OF
>PERPETRATING IT, even if you didn't get it started.
>

Again I find this attitude like original sin. I'm born with a very large
set of karmic points against me, created by the oppression caused
by others, and I'm a devil if I don't actively knock out those karmic
black spots one by one. This is so much bullshit.

Strangely enough we basically agree. Doing nasty things to people is bad and we
should help stop the nasty things. I just don't like being accused of
being a certain way because I'm of a particular race. I especially reject
the attitude that I'm guilty until proven innocent.




Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: curious
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 20:26:10 GMT

"Andrew E. Switala" <as7y+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:

>I'm not pagan (at least not yet), and I have two questions that might
>help me decide if paganism is for me.

>First, is/are there any pagan religion(s) at all that place no emphasis
>whatsoever on sex, sex referring to both the quality and the act.

I am not certain exactly what you are asking.  If you are wondering if there
are pagan religions which do not emphasise sex, certainly.  I don't think most
Native American religions have much emphasis on sex.  Many neo-pagan religions
mention sex to point out that they disagree with the suppression of sex which 
is part of some branches of the monotheistic religions.  My religion mentions
sex because we are a fertility religion and sex is sacred to us.  This is not
true of all neo-pagan religions, however.

>Second, are some, all, or none of the pagan religions considered to be
>organized religion?

Hm, again I am not certain what you are asking.  If by organised, you mean
legally recognised, there are certainly recognised pagan religions in the US.
Most of the Native religions are officially recognised, and then ignored as
much as possible.  Some neo-pagan groups have legally incorporated.  If you
are asking whether any of the pagan religions are very structured, some are
and some aren't.  And the dividing lines are not necessarily on the lines of
the religion.  Some Witches are very structured, performing the same rites
the same way every time, run by the same persons, according to a strict
hierarchy.  Some Witches are majorly freeform.  Most Wiccan groups will fall
somewhere between the extremes.  Of course, those exact same statements can
be made with Christian substituted for Witch/Wiccan. :-)

              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
                               Br'anArthur

Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Subject: Re: stereotypes - and a request
Organization: FERMILAB
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 21:51:20 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalno.fnal.gov
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <fQfgzGy@quack.sac.ca.us>, pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey) 
writes:
>>I use the war analogy because it accurately describes what I am seeing.
>>Are you familiar with pre-1920 America? 
> 
> Yeah, I hear what your saying, I should always check my back, everywhere
> is just like Compton. That's gangstar talk, isn't it? But I got my back 
> tonight, know what I'm sayin' G?

You lost me.  Try again?
-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
TEAM STAR Charter Member             | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
From: tmhoff@oogoody.Corp.Sun.COM (Todd Hoff)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Who cares
Date: 21 Jul 1992 18:02:55 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: tmhoff@oogoody.Corp.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: oogoody.corp.sun.com

In article 41778@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu, kumagic@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (Stephen R. Figgins) writes:
>Even I treat men with more caution than I do women.  I don't know how
>heinous this discrimination is, I just don't trust men very much.  In
>general I expect white men to be oblivious to the pain and suffering
>they cause, the fear they generate.  They just don't seem to see it.
>So I don't trust them.  
>

I don't trust people who don't trust people because of their color, gender,
belief system, hair color or style, piercing customs, sexual peference,
and any other meaningless attribute.

I will not play the game of justifying myself or abasing myself to be
one of the redeemed ogre white males. I was born into this body. Perhaps
next time I will be a frog. But I would expect you not to think less of
me merely because I become a frog.
From: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Subject: Re: Monothiesm in pagan cultures (was: >suggestion<)
Followup-To: alt.pagan
Originator: lunde@casbah.acns.nwu.edu
Reply-To: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Organization: Ministry of Silly Walks
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 03:06:07 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.140854.1@fnalno.fnal.gov> holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov 
(Daniel B. Holzman) writes:
>In article <1992Jul22.025723.908@ddsw1.mcs.com>, eshin@ddsw1.mcs.com 
>(Eshin-Fun) writes:[...]
>> If you or anyone else cannot accept the "challenge" then fine. No one is
>
>You confuse the concepts "can not" and "will not."
>
>> asking you or anyone else to personally accept it. But by the same token you
>> and anyone else should have the decorum to keep your mouth shut.
>
>Very few people have the right to expect me to "keep my mouth shut" on an 
>issue raised in open forum, which alt.pagan is.  You are not one of them.
>[...]
>Agree with you or be silent?  Try again?  You make a suggestion in an open
>forum.  I feel that it is an ill advised one, and so state in that self-same
>forum in response.  I am clearly not alone in this belief.  This is called 
>open discussion.  If you cannot handle the concept of people publicly 
>disagreeing with you, perhaps it is you who should limit your output.

Yea!

Eshin-Fun is tedious to suggest how other people should talk about
their ideas and experience.  

I am a participant in a christian community, and I have no interest in 
promoting "Christian" Spiritual Imperialism.

At the same time, I'm not going to hide my ties to either xiaity or paganism
in a closet to suit someone else's bias. I am in the business of unbuilding
walls and fuzzing up sharp boundaries. I may not always choose to make
everything perfectly clear.

I learned most of my (conventional and unconventional) christian theology
in self defense.  But if a good concept comes my way I will use it
whether it is from Matthew Fox, the Tao Te Ching, Meister Eckhart, 
Buddha, Z. Buddapest, Thomas Merton, Starhawk or Mary Daly.

-- 
 Albert Lunde         | Interfaith  |     *Y*Y*      "A branch on the
 Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu |  Bisexual   |      *Y*        tree of life"
 alunde@nuacvm.bitnet |  Feminist   |.......|.........................
From: swells@triton.unm.edu (Ed Gruberman)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Killing wrong? (was: god/goddess thing)
Date: 24 Jul 92 20:41:54 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

>
>>> ... killing is always wrong ...

killing is not always wrong.

there, i have just as much conviction as you do.  why is your statment
correct and mine not, or vice versa?  it still boils down to an
opinion, sorry.

i will give you a scenario where i think killing was actually the
*right* thing to do, and not killing was wrong.

ever heard of the soldier from WWI who was blasted by a land mine?
his face was melted,  he could not see, could not hear, had no arms
or legs.  for some reason no one seemed to figure out, he kept
banging his head on the wall (or bed).  finally a soldier recog-
nized that it was morse code.  he was saying "kill me, kill me..."

i think the book that detailed this was Johnny Get Your Gun or
some such and was apparently banned in the US at the time it was
written because it was anti-war.

at any rate forcing somone to live in a case of *obvious* suffering
when they cannot do anything to alleviate the situation themselves
and they want to die is wrong.  (IMO).

>>
>>then, given desert storm, among others....
>>
this does not follow from the statement, "all killing is wrong."

>>  we are killers.

yah, so what.  so is nearly everything on the planet, even some non-
living things.  (or those considered to be non-living).

death/killing are inseparable from life.  without them there can be no life.  
deal with it.
>
>Agreed. 
>
>Blessings,
>Janis

blessings to all and may we all learn to respect all forms of life,
and not abuse the great destructive power that humans possess.
(to me eating animals does not fall under abuse, just as eating
plants does not.  i do not distinguish.  all life is sacred.)

shannon
Newsgroups: alt.pagan