HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: russ@wpg.com (Russell Lawrence)
Subject: Re: animals in research
Organization: WP Group
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 01:28:07 GMT

Russell Lawrence writes:
rl> I was immediately successful, however, in making contact with Joel 
rl> Newman at PCRM who made the following statement:
rl> 
rl>     PCRM promotes alternatives to animal research and encourages
rl>     higher standards for ethics and effectiveness in animal 
rl>     research.  We also oppose unethical use of humans in medical
rl>     research.
rl> 
rl> This reconfirms the prior statements made by Ted Robinson and Bob
rl> Black, and negates the claim made previously by Martin Hulsey.

From article <1992Nov9.223222.10233@athena.cs.uga.edu>, by hulsey@athena.cs.uga.edu (Martin Hulsey):
mh> With respect to PCRM's *present* position, I stand corrected.
mh> 
mh> Recall what Bob Black quoted from a PCRM pamphlet...
mh> 
=========================================================================
bb> Here's some text extracted from the PCRM's Declaration of Concern and
bb> Support:
bb> 
bb> "We support:    effective, humane research methods which reduce or 
bb>  replace the use of animals in research, including epidemiological
bb>  research, clinical studies, cellular research, and computer models.
bb> 
bb> "We support:    improved legal protection for all animals in 
bb> laboratories.
=========================================================================
mh> 
mh> By advocating "replacement" of "inhumane" and "ineffective" animal 
mh> paradigms, PCRM opposed animal research then.  

PCRM opposed SOME animal research.

mh> By "promoting 
mh> alternatives" to animal paradigms (as though they existed), and 
mh> implying that existing standards of ethics and effectiveness are 
mh> unsatisfactory, PCRM opposes animal research now.  

PCRM's position states that they support "effective, humane 
research methods which reduce or replace the use of animals in 
research".  Can you present a statement from PCRM to support your 
simplistic claim that PCRM was/is opposed to all animal research?  
-- 
Russell Lawrence, WP Group, New Orleans (504) 443-5000
russ@wpg.com   uunet!wpg!russ
From: spp@zabriskie.berkeley.edu (Steve Pope)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
Subject: Re: Another interesting bit of "activism"
Date: 17 Nov 1992 23:59:44 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley -- ERL
NNTP-Posting-Host: zion.berkeley.edu

>Still, not having heard how your idea of involuntary sterilization
>of humans fits into your plan for solving the problems of 
>population growth, I cannot judge whether you premise is feasible.

I am presuming that by sterilizing somewhere between
30% and 50% of the adult populace, population growth
would decline to zero, thus saving the earth from total
eco-destruction.  I could be off base on this, but I
can't think of any alternatives.

>Could you clarify your vision of how a system for selecting and
>restraining human candidates for forced sterilization should operate?

I envision a global mandate for achieving X percentage of
sterilization in every jurisdiction.  Individual jurisdictions
(countries and their political subdivisions) would decide
on their own selection systems, based on what is most palatable
to their constituencies, or what is otherwise feasible.
I would imagine in first-world countries, you would rely on
paid volunteers.  While in the third world, lotteries might
be needed.

BTW I do not expect this to be a popular idea.

Steve
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
From: chrstie@ccu.umanitoba.ca (William John M. Christie)
Subject: Re: Another interesting bit of "activism"
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 18:14:15 GMT

In <1e9e5kINNe18@agate.berkeley.edu> spp@zabriskie.berkeley.edu (Steve Pope) writes:

>In article <1992Nov16.231414.23703@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> jhoskins@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (James M Hoskins) writes:

[stuff deleted]

>>I'd be interested in your reaction to the following situation which
>>occurred in Columbus.  [..]
>>[ a proposed solution was ] sucking the hogs out of their burrows 
>>into a big truck and then
>>driving the truck to a rural area to deposit the live unharmed animals.

>Good plan.

>>The problem with this scenario was that no place within the county or
>>immediate area wanted the animals 

>No problem.  Do it in the dark of night.  Leave no trace.

I don't really want to sound offensive but did you really want to sound
serious with that above statement?  This receives my vote for most
humourous response in this newsgroup.  I can just see a pair of tire
tracks on my lawn and a pile of dazed groundhogs some morning when I 
wake up.


Will Christie
-- 
==========================================================================
  Any opinions expressed above are usually made with some thought which   
  is my own and is not intended to represent the University in any way.
==========================================================================
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
From: jhoskins@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (James M Hoskins)
Subject: Re: Another interesting bit of "activism"
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 23:29:22 GMT

In article <1e97smINNckd@agate.berkeley.edu> spp@zabriskie.berkeley.edu (Steve
Pope) writes:
>In article <1992Nov16.214216.22259@spdc.ti.com> achenbac@epcot.spdc.ti.com (Je
ff Achenbach) writes:
>>>
>>>I do not consider it acceptable to kill, bludgeon, poison
>>>etc. the deer just because we (a) want to build a recreational
>>>facility and (b) don't want to spend the money to address
>>>the situation humanely.
>>
>
>>  You didn't bother to answer my questions about other less cute and
>>cuddly pests.
>
>Because these questions are a flippant attempt to sidetrack the
>discussion.
>
>Steve


Steve,

According to an article in the Columbus Dispatch newspaper yesterday
the rat population in (I believe I have the city right) Prague is
reaching about a 1:1 proportion with the human inhabitants of the
city.  Because of monetary problems the Czech government has been able
to spend less money on rat poison in recent years, permitting the rat
population to soar.  Assuming you lived in Prague, what solution would
you advocate to humanely solve the rat problem?
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
From: swood@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Scott Wood - EVENSONG)
Subject: Re: Another interesting bit of "activism"
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI.
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 02:45:34 GMT

spp@zabriskie.berkeley.edu (Steve Pope) writes:

(Re: mandatory sterilization)

`I would imagine in first-world countries, you would rely on
`paid volunteers.

Democratic method - Medicare Vasectomies and Hysterectomies
Republic method   - Tax credits or vouchers and pooling of medical
		    support for sterilization surgery
Ross Perot method - Do it in any manner that the volunteers want, but
		    more important than that you will have to take care
		    of the deficit!!

swood
-- 
  Nov. 14   Closing day of Bird season in Michigan and pheasant in zones 2 & 3
  Nov. 14   Closing day of Goose season (U.P. of Michigan)
  Nov. 14   Closing day of early Archery Deer season in Michigan
  Nov. 15   Opening day of Rifle Deer season in Michigan (YES!)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
From: Rosemary Waigh <rwaigh@zooid.guild.org>
Subject: Re: Posting fan mail fragments
Reply-To: rwaigh@zooid.UUCP (Rosemary Waigh)
Organization: The Zoo of Ids
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 02:25:42 GMT

In article <1992Nov18.153824.24819@samba.oit.unc.edu> itsmine@med.unc.edu (Greg Popken) writes:
>
>
>Really? Then why are you trying to control our actions?
>
>				       Greg Popken

I am just providing information and opinions for you to think about.
If you don't like it, add me to your kill file.

Ro
rwaigh@zooid.guild.org

Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Subject: Re: Clinton/Fonda
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 07:55:59 GMT

In <By1uqq.9Mu@wpg.com> russ@wpg.com (Russell Lawrence) writes:

>Hint: On the whole, we gauge intelligence by the ability of an animal 
>to change his mental behavior in response to experience;  we 
>gauge stupidity, on the other hand, by mental constancy.  

	I find this particular paragraph of yours rather interesting
given your views on how treason is defined and how Fonda was not
treasonous in her behavior despite fitting the rules.  Your mental
constancy here is, let's say, revealing.

	When you can tell the difference between opposing a government
policy and treason, perhaps you too will see the irony.

< Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu viking@iastate.edu >
<  ISU only censors what I read, not what I say.  Don't blame them.  >
<  "This isn't an answer, it's a pagan dance around a midnight fire  >
<   written in intellectual runes." -- Rich Young                    >

Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
From: swood@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Scott Wood - EVENSONG)
Subject: Would be interesting to do a survey
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI.
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 17:23:26 GMT

Both of my parents are school teachers in a Junior High School / High
School environment.  Though they do not openly "preach" their opinions
on animal use to the students, it is rather common knowledge - due to
their annual sick leaves around the 15th of November and other occasional
fall dates - that family is active in participating in hunting activities.

Though they do not start such discussions they do encourage open discussions
from students on hunting and animal concerns.  My mother in particular,
being a substitute teacher, often finds herself with additional lulls in
class time due to inexistent or chronologically insufficient lesson plans
left by the absent teachers.  With this time she really likes to talk to the
students.
She told me the other day that when the subject of animal use an hunting
comes up, the boys are mostly for it.  However, the girls usually are
against for what I see to be the wronge reasons.  They do not favor the
use of cute little bunnies in animal tests but think that it would be
O.K. on ugly creatures like rats.  They also see no problem with using
an ugly old cow or a pig for food, but are appauled that people would kill
the precious little bambi's running around in the woods.

Gee, I wonder how many of these emotional arguements carry over into
adulthood with these AR-head emotio-aniacs?  And I wonder if anyone has
ever done a survey into the feelings of Junior High Boys' and girls'
opinions on the subject and included the "whys" and "wherefors"?

swood
-- 
  Nov. 14   Closing day of Bird season in Michigan and pheasant in zones 2 & 3
  Nov. 14   Closing day of Goose season (U.P. of Michigan)
  Nov. 14   Closing day of early Archery Deer season in Michigan
  Nov. 15   Opening day of Rifle Deer season in Michigan (YES!)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
From: swood@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Scott Wood - EVENSONG)
Subject: Re: Another interesting bit of "activism"
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI.
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 00:24:14 GMT

spp@zabriskie.berkeley.edu (Steve Pope) writes:

`Jeff Achenbach writes:

`>suffer. At this point, the deer, of which I am personally extremely fond,
`>are vermin. 

`Whether they are "beautiful" or "vermin" is besides the
`point.  My purpose is to see the situation addressed humanely.

Is it humane to filabuster over "humane" and "non-humane" while these animals
starve and die of desease?  Saw a cartoon the other day of a couple of campers
(presumably AR types) standing around a dead (starved) deer.  The caption read
"Well, at least a hunter didn't get it..."

That's sick!  My bullet, with practice, ends the deers life in little less
then 30 seconds - and the resources of its body don't just become fertilizer
for next years crop of mushrooms....

swood
-- 
  Nov. 14   Closing day of Bird season in Michigan and pheasant in zones 2 & 3
  Nov. 14   Closing day of Goose season (U.P. of Michigan)
  Nov. 14   Closing day of early Archery Deer season in Michigan
  Nov. 15   Opening day of Rifle Deer season in Michigan (YES!)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
From: itsmine@med.unc.edu (Greg Popken)
Subject: Re: Posting fan mail fragments
Organization: UNC-CH School of Medicine
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 15:38:24 GMT

In article <1992Nov17.192748.6301@zooid.guild.org> rwaigh@zooid.UUCP (Rosemary Waigh) writes:
>Lines: 41
>
>In article <1992Nov11.155721.18401@refrig.dixie.com> todd@refrig.dixie.com (Todd H.) writes:
>>
>>Got any plans to deal with the people who claim to be your leaders, who are
>>doing your non-violent ways terrible damage by association?  The latest
>>PETA newsletter has the most telling photo on the cover - a terrorist, a
>>member of ALF, suitably shadowed.  Looks like PETA is finally coming out of
>>the closet on thier affiliation.

>Rosemary writes:  
>I can't really control other people's actions, can I?


Really? Then why are you trying to control our actions?

				       Greg Popken

-- 
The opinions expressed here are my own.  **   Knowledge goes on forever! 
Which is to say they belong to me.       **   Spelling stops at the 
And these opinions, which belong to me,  **   end of the page.
are mine.                                *******************************
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
From: Rosemary Waigh <rwaigh@zooid.guild.org>
Subject: Trutt readings, part one
Reply-To: rwaigh@zooid.UUCP (Rosemary Waigh)
Organization: The Zoo of Ids
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 02:39:05 GMT


(here is the first of the articles in _Animals'_Agenda_ (that I was
able to find) concerning the Fran Trutt case)

"Bombs and Bombast"

"New York and Connecticut animal defenders ran up their phone bills
Nov. 11, asking each other, 'Who is she?', after Fran Trutt was
arrested while planting a radio-controlled pipe bomb in the U.S.
Surgical Corp. parking lot at Norwalk, Conn.  Trutt, 33, of Queens, N.Y.,
was unknown to Friends of Animals (FoA) and the Fund for Animals (FFA),
two groups that have sued U.S. Surgical trying to halt the use of dogs
in sales demonstrations of surgical staples - a practice criticized by
surgeons as well as animal defenders.

"Trutt's bomb was apparently aimed at U.S. Surgical president Leon Hirsch,
who would have parked nearby some hours later.  'We were horrified to learn
of this,' said Julie Lewin, FFA's Connecticut director.  'We in no way
condone any terrorism.  Violence toward people does not help animals.  We
are relieved that Trutt was put safely under lock and key before doing
any irrevocable harm.'

"Even avowed 'Luddite' Dave Foreman of Earth First! was appalled.  'Trashing
a machine to prevent ecological harm is one thing,' Foreman said.  'Trashing
a person is entirely different.  I generally think it's an absolute mistake 
to engage in violence against people.  First, if you believe in the
sanctity of all life, then if you use violence you're destroying that which
you're supposed to protect.  Second, there is the tendency of revolutionaries
who use violence, thinking the ends justify the means, to become that which
they revolt against.  Instead of using the tools of the enemy, I think we have
to sidestep and do something else.  Planting a pipe bomb is bad public 
relations, and a stupid thing to do.'

"FoA president Priscilla Feral expressed optimism that although Hirsch and
the National Association for Biomedical Research tried to use Trutt's
action against animal defenders, 'the controversy is going to be short-lived.
There is going to be no permanent damage to respected organizations or to the 
movement as a whole because of the actions of one extremist who operated
outside of the movement.'  Feral acknowledged, however, that Hirsch had made
her life 'hell' for a week after he 'blamed me personally and my organization
professionally.'
..."
From: joan@koala.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
Subject: Re: Clinton/Fonda
Date: 22 Nov 1992 18:34:28 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: koala.berkeley.edu




[part deleted]

kw> Jane Fonda actively supported the enemy, and I'm not going to let 
kw> you try to obscure that fact.  What she did in making propaganda 
kw> statements from Hanoi on behalf of the enemy, urging American 
kw> troops to put down their weapons and refuse to fight, was EXACTLY 
kw> the same things that "Tokyo Rose" (who was also an American 
kw> citizen, btw) did on behalf of the Japanese during WW2.  (Tokyo 
kw> Rose was hanged for treason, although she was an Asian, not Henry 
kw> Fonda's lily-white darling little commie bitch.) I suppose you 
kw> think Tokyo Rose was just another patriot?  If you don't, maybe 
kw> you DON'T understand the meaning of "hypocrisy".  

[part deleted]

	Well she SAID she was sorry :-)   At least I recall
reading Jane's statement that she shouldn't have done it.

	The various articles I have read in the magazines over
the years told me that Tokyo Rose was not hanged, but served a
lot of years in prison.  She maintained that she did make the
broadcasts but that she was forced to make them and that she was one
of 7 "Tokyo Roses".

	Joan V
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
From: swood@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Scott Wood - EVENSONG)
Subject: Re: Clinton/Fonda
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI.
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 03:30:04 GMT

kdw@icd.ab.com (Kenneth D. Whitehead) writes:


`Jane Fonda actively supported the enemy, and I'm not going to let you try 
`to obscure that fact.  What she did in making propaganda statements from 
`Hanoi on behalf of the enemy, urging American troops to put down their 
`weapons and refuse to fight, was EXACTLY the same things that "Tokyo Rose" 
`(who was also an American citizen, btw) did on behalf of the Japanese 
`during WW2.  (Tokyo Rose was hanged for treason, although she was an Asian, 
`not Henry Fonda's lily-white darling little commie bitch.)  I suppose you 
`think Tokyo Rose was just another patriot?  If you don't, maybe you DON'T 
`understand the meaning of "hypocrisy".

CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP !!!

`Russell, you really are starting to sound like a mindless bag of wind...

What else is new?

Someone should make a post to the net as a sort of public survey of use
net to see if anyone has actually felt informed, enlightened or converted
to a different way of thought by Russell.  Then they should also check to see
how many people have been offended or appauled by his tactics, pias B.S. and
self-righteous stature.

Gee, then if the results were as I would presume they would, perhaps we could
start publicly distributing bug fixes to common news readers to kill his
articles for new readers/subscribers to the group

swood

P.S. feel free to post any or all of this reply - use my name if you wish











































` 
-- 
  Nov. 14   Closing day of Bird season in Michigan and pheasant in zones 2 & 3
  Nov. 14   Closing day of Goose season (U.P. of Michigan)
  Nov. 14   Closing day of early Archery Deer season in Michigan
  Nov. 15   Opening day of Rifle Deer season in Michigan (YES!)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
From: Rosemary Waigh <rwaigh@zooid.guild.org>
Subject: Re: More Violence(was Re: Posting fan mail fragments)
Reply-To: rwaigh@zooid.UUCP (Rosemary Waigh)
Organization: The Zoo of Ids
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 19:37:07 GMT

In article <1992Nov16.015056.24124@samba.oit.unc.edu> itsmine@med.unc.edu (Greg Popken) writes:
>
>Again, the comarision with humans.  AR supporter constantly draw
>comparisions between animals and humans, granting both equal moral
>standing.  I have yet to be convienced that animals are equal to humans.
>And therefore they should be treated equally.
Of course animals are different from humans.  But are the differences 
sufficient to justify fatal/painful experiments?  Perhaps you have covered
this ground in other articles (I do not read every single article in t.p.a,
I apologize if I am making you repeat yourself); the argument I was responding
to was that it is for a worthwhile cause.  I think you will need to elaborate
this argument so that it can not be used to apply to similar experiments on
humans.
>
>By the way I comend you on your initiative regarding the study you
>vounteered for.  I would be interested in learning more of the specifics
>of the study, as would Martin I'm sure.  (please e-mail me if you wish.)
>
I don't think I should publicize details of the study, which the researchers
involved might not want blabbed all over the net.  After its published I could
give a reference perhaps, but that won't be for years.

>I would also like to address your comment regarding your ineligibility for
>other studies because of your past history.
Actually I meant that while I was on the pill I was not eligible.  As far
as I know, now that I am no longer on the pill it shouldn't be a problem
in terms of participating in studies.

>  It is for that vary reason
>clinical assesment alone cannot answer the questions regarding disease and
>cientific inquiry necessitates controling various parameters.  That is
>possible with animals but often impossible with humans.
>In your case your history of using certain medications may alter the
>results of some treatment.  In which case the researcher can not be
>certain of the outcome of the experiment.
>						   Greg Popken
>
Fair enough, though this is not an answer to the ethical concerns about
some experiments.  (The researcher can't be *certain* that the results obtained
in non-human animals will apply to humans anyway, can (s)he?)

Ro
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals
From: young@serum.kodak.com (Rich Young)
Subject: Re: Another interesting bit of "activism"
Originator: young@sasquatch
Reply-To: young@serum.kodak.com
Organization: Clinical Diagnostics Division, Eastman Kodak Company
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 19:18:37 GMT

In article <1992Nov17.221955.7406@spdc.ti.com> achenbac@epcot.spdc.ti.com (Jeff Achenbach) writes:
>In article <BxvHBs.9nE@ccu.umanitoba.ca> chrstie@ccu.umanitoba.ca (William John M. Christie) writes:
>>In <1e9e5kINNe18@agate.berkeley.edu> spp@zabriskie.berkeley.edu (Steve Pope) writes:

[...re the disposition of unwanted woodchucks...]

   And then there's THIS little piece of trivia regarding our rodent friends:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
AU Yu Wei, Genevieve Fourel, Antonio Ponzetto, Maria Silvestro, Pierre
   Tiollais, and Marie-Annick Buendia

TI "Hepadnavirus Integration: Mechanisms of Activation of the N-myc2
   Retrotransposon in Woodchuck Liver Tumors.";

SO J. Virol. 66:5265-5276(1992)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

   Isn't Internet wonderful?


-Rich Young (These are not Kodak's opinions.)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals