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Date:         Thu, 23 Jul 1992 14:46:57 EST
From:         SIF <finkelst@SIAM.ORG>
Subject:      re: Jeremy Irons as Kafka
Comments: To: literary@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

          Dave L.,

          I tend to have a problem relating to older film adaptations
          of literary works. I'm sure Welles is a treat to watch, but
          I'm not sure if filmmaking was developed enough, say, 30 or
          40 years ago, to catch the subtleties and nuances that
          interpretations of Kafka's works would demand.

          Generally, I find these versions dated and melodramatic.  A
          couple that spring to mind:  Ayn Rand's _The Fountainhead_,
          _Moby Dick_ (with Gregory Peck, of all people, as Ahab), and
          even Olivier in _Hamlet_ (compare with the latest version
          where Mel Gibson, surprisingly, absolutely shines as a
          startlingly aggressive Hamlet).

          Susan Finkelstein
          finkelst@siam.org
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Date:         Fri, 24 Jul 1992 12:07:00 EDT
From:         IAN YORK <YORK@MCMASTER.BITNET>
Subject:      Stephen Jay Gould

Michael:  Would _The Mismeasure of Man_ work in a class:  I think it would
probably work very well.  If you want people to confront their preconcep-
tions, I think this is one of the best books available.  Writing in a calm,
logical, and matter of fact style, Gould takes you through the whole history
of intelligence measuring and should have most people sputtering with rage
at the stupidities perpetuated in the name of reason within about 2 chapters.
There are too many examples to cite, but he shows how people, even when they
are apparently sincerely trying to be objective, are driven by their prejud-
ices to an amazing extent.  From there it's a short step to looking at your
own.  An excellent book.  There is one chapter of moderately dense mathemat-
ics but I would guess one could skim it and get the sense of it pretty well.
Ian
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Date:         Thu, 30 Jul 1992 21:14:32 -0900
From:         the First and Only Nude Vaxer <FSCLL@ALASKA.BITNET>

Someone please tell me why some of my posts are hitting the list
three or four times when I nly send them once.. and others don't
ever appear at all?

Is there a moderator or list-god that can help me?
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Date:         Thu, 30 Jul 1992 12:45:56 EST
From:         DZL <livewell@SIAM.ORG>
Subject:      Re: Prose/Poetry
Comments: To: helfrich@SIAM.ORG, LITERARY@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

          Laura,

          Wilbur seems like a fine place to start unless you have
          something enlightening to say about "When You Are Old."
          Wilbur is my favorite contemporary poet.  Perhaps there
          others out there who feel the same way.  I've been lucky
          enough to see him read twice over the past couple of years.
          Do you know his poem, "Year's End?"  It's one of my
          favorites.  Maybe several people could read it and comment.
          Do you have a favorite?

          Dave
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Date:         Fri, 24 Jul 1992 10:42:00 EDT
From:         "Grace.E.Zarek@Williams.edu" <ZAREK@WILLIAMA.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Hester's Murder

Laura's high school reading list sounds outstanding.  I must admit I was
exposed to some very good literature in high school and my daughter has just
graduated from the same school, I think she enjoyed the books more than I did.
Dickens was always horrible as far as I was concerned and Shakespeare just
seemed over my head.  Now as an adult college student and employee at Williams
College, I'm getting back into literesture (English major) that is coming
through in a totally new light.

I don't have time with a full time job and 2 courses per semester to read
outside of class, but I have encountered some old favorites I think should be
added to our summer listing.  _Bleak House_ turned out to be terrific, I have
to read it again for enjoyment.  Also the audio version of "The Importance of
Being Ernest" (I'm assuming audio tapes count, they are wonderful for long
drives and sometimes give more life than reading, especially when one is
reading so much).

Others, and I haven't mentioned these because I don't know if they fit into
some of the masterpieces I've seen fly by the screen, but _To Kill a
Mockingbird_ and _Their Eyes Were Watching God_ are always books I want to go
back to when I want a relaxing and interesting read.

Summer is also great for theatre, we're heavily into Shakespeare here in
Berkshire county and other plays via the Williamstown Theatre Festival which
often means reading and view enjoyment.  Sorry, tv and video just don't cut it
as far as I'm concerned.

Grace
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Date:         Thu, 23 Jul 1992 15:26:51 EDT
From:         Thomas Bontrager <tbont@EP.IEEE.ORG>
Subject:      Re: John Gardner
Comments: To: LITERARY@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

The John Gardner book in question is, I think, _The Art of Fiction_,
not to be confused with Henry James's _The Art of the Novel_, a collection
of his criticism. I read _The Art of Fiction_ several years ago and found
it temporarily inspiring, a writer's-eye-view of the process. One nice thing
about it is that it includes criticism. Gardner talks about examples and
tries to make plain the effects of different points of view, persons, pacings,
and so forth. A book that goes further in this direction but that doesn't
claim to be a guide for the working writer is Wayne C. Booth's _The Rhetoric
of Fiction_. I liked that one a lot, even though the scope of my reading wasn't
quite up to Booth's deluge of examples.

Cheers,

Tom Bontrager
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Date:         Tue, 21 Jul 1992 15:46:17 CDT
From:         RBLEILER@PRIME.MHSL.UAB.EDU
Subject: re: Gray's Lanark
Comments: To: LITERARY@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

 I've read Gray's Lanark, his 1982 Janine, his The Fall of Kelvin Walker,
his McGrotty and Ludmilla, and a collection of his poetry whose title
I've forgotten.  Oh yes, a collection of short stories called Unlikely
Stories, Mostly.  I think he is frequently fantastic:  visionary, dark,
poetic, with a strong satirical edge.  On the debit side, he does seem
to be somewhat repetitive with characterization and setting (Glasgow
and vicinity.)  My opinion is that Lanark is his finest work; 1982 Janine
has the most gleeful use of experimental prose for its first half;
The Fall of Kelvin Walker and McGrotty and Ludmilla are almost mirror
images of each other but are relatively minor . . ..  He's worth
reading, though, and I think he will be considered as one of this
century's major writers.

Best,

Richard Bleiler
RBleiler@prime.mhsl.uab.edu
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Date:         Thu, 23 Jul 1992 11:26:00 PDT
From:         naomi seeger <ECZ5SEE@UCLAMVS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Jeremy Irons as Kafka

>           Did you know that there is also an older movie version of
>           _The Trial_ directed by Orson Welles?  I've never seen it,
>           but I know it is out on video.  Anthony Perkins (yes, Psycho
>           himself) plays the lead.  It got excellent reviews when it
>           came out.
>           --Dave L.

 let me second the excellent reviews.  wow!  fantastic.  saw it in the
mann & kafka class i took.  one thing that still has me laughing is that
in the beginning, before the title and such, orson welles narrates the
segment "before the law".  later, josef k is in the church and is shown
the film of that sequence.  well, before it's halfway over, he stands
up and waving his hands over the screen, says "hey, we've already seen
this!  who'd be interested?"  or words to that effect.  anthony perkins
was very good, IMHO (natch), as k.   and of course, it being orson welles,
the filmaking is superb.  better than citizen kane, in my view.

naomi seeger
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Date:         Wed, 29 Jul 1992 08:43:16 CDT
From:         Michael O'Conner <C359452@MIZZOU1.BITNET>
Subject:      listowner

Someone please send me the name and e-mail address of the listowner
of literary.

Thanks,
Mike, C359452@Mizzou1
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Posted-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 13:26:52 EDT
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Date:         Tue, 21 Jul 1992 13:26:52 EDT
From:         MM <mbm@PACSCL.UARC.UPENN.EDU>
Subject:      Legacy of England (Forster again)
Comments: To: literary@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

Subrat, one of the short articles that I read (for an overdue bibliography)
by Nirad C. Chaudhuri, also brings this up about the Indian's attitude to
the English.  Since his essay was written in 1954, I simply assumed that it
expressed an attitude long vanished.  Anyway, he went even further than the
remarks you gave, asserting that England had an opportunity to extend the
West which they did not understand, and ruined, because they did not want to
share their language or their culture. Most people on the left today would
have a hard time coming to grips with the attitude he expresses, because at
first glance it might seem to go against the conventional anti-colonialist
sentiments, or perhaps not go against but be more complex than.  Anyway,
the attitude you describe is important for people to understand--most of
us end up thinking in simplicities, and when we believe them to be the
correct, progressive simplicities, we don't question ourselves.  So, how
are these, or rather, were these incompatible attitudes held by the Indians
toward the British, and why?
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Date:         Sat, 25 Jul 1992 14:44:16 EDT
From:         Tim Johnson <PH408014@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Russian writers

>. . . the "idiocy" in question is merely epilepsy,
>MBMcDonald

  Actually, I don't agree with this.  While it is
true that Prince Mishkin was supposed to have epilepsy,
and a certain mental ... fragility, the "idiocy" in
question was the reaction of those "ordinary" people
mired in ordinary life, accustomed to the ordinary sorts
of lies and deceptions and compromises which people make
to get by.  I think it is very clear that the title is
meant to be ironic.

                      -Tim
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Date:         Thu, 30 Jul 1992 16:33:44 EDT
From:         steve fahringer <sbf2v@UVA.PCMAIL.VIRGINIA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Gaudi and gaudy
Comments: To: "Discussions about Literature" <LITERARY@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu>

Yes, the whole thing was "rich (not gaudy)."  Even the Webster's gives a
quotation from Pope, which leads one to believe that Bob Costas' research
team was playing a prank on him.  How will he live this down when he resumes
his Late-Night-Power-Info-Sessions?
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Date:         Tue, 21 Jul 1992 02:20:04 EST
From:         The Dude <royald@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: southern writers
Comments: To: LITERARY@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu
              92 11:09 pm

MM writes:
>
> 	Just wanted to recommend _Kate Vaiden_ by Reynolds Price.  By the
> way, I taught for several years in NC, and it's true-the state is full of
> writers.  Mike

Mike,

KATE VAIDEN is a wonderful novel!...and one of my standard Price
references.  AND IT IS TRUE!  NC is full of writers, and good writers at that.
 (Of course, being a native North
Carolinian, I am a bit partial.)  Fred Chappell, Donald Davis, Clyde
Edgerton, Kate Gibbons, Allan Gurganus, Elizabeth Spencer . . . all
are lucky to breath or to have breathed under the Carolina blue sky.
But again, I am a rather biased.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
	Derek Royal		      ><	"A single sentence will
	royald@mace.cc.purdue.edu     ><	suffice for modern man:
	English Department	      ><	he fornicated and read the
	Purdue University	      ><	papers."."
	West Lafayette, IN   	      ><		   -- Albert Camus
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
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Date:         Wed, 22 Jul 1992 12:22:22 EST
From:         Graham Wolff Christian <GRAHAM@HARVARDA.BITNET>

You may wish to look at the recently published short novels/long stories of
Russian exile Nina Berberova, published first in French some time ago, publishe
d in English (in both England and America) quite recently--I read them in a
collection called *The Tattered Cloak and other stories*, but other editions
have had other titles. I found them shattering myself, but _de gustibus..._
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Date:         Thu, 23 Jul 1992 13:19:42 -0500
From:         Eric Baum <PBR_EVB@FANDMA.BITNET>
Subject: RE: Melville

Susan,

If the memory of your substitute teacher is so vivid, you must remember how
he ruined _The Scarlet Letter_ for you. Please share the story; I've found
that I sometimes get more valuable insights into techniques through
resounding failures than through successes.

I was not completely comfortable teaching _The Scarlet Letter_ to a high
school class. Though I've come to appreciate it far more than I did 20
years ago when I read it in high school, I'm not sure that I'm able to
translate that appreciation into the classroom. In fact, a student told me
months later that it was her favorite book from that year and I was
surprised becuase the class' reaction had been so negative.

This thread leads me into a different track that I've been playing with. Is
_The Scarlet Letter_ a perfect example of a work that shouldn't be taught
in high school as a matter of course; one of the "canon" that is included
simply because it always has been?

Eric
*************************************************************************
E. V. Baum
Production Coordinator
Franklin & Marshall College
Lancaster, PA
PBR_EVB@ADMIN.FANDM.EDU
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Date:         Wed, 22 Jul 1992 10:19:08 EST
From:         DZL <livewell@SIAM.ORG>
Subject:      No Subject Given
Comments: To: AAIT01@SAKACS00.BITNET, LITERARY@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

          It seems to me that one of the best books on fiction writing
          is by John Gardner.  Unfortunately, I forget the exact
          title.  It's something like The Craft of Fiction.  He has
          been hailed by many contemporary writers as a fine teacher.
           Let me know if you find it.
          --Dave
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Date:         Mon, 27 Jul 1992 11:14:24 EDT
From:         Tim Johnson <PH408014@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Karenin vs. Levin??

>And his inability to see the demands of the inner
>life clamoring for attention in the person of his wife finally renders him
>little more than a self-righteously wronged husband, most definitely *not*
>a person of character in the eyes of Levin, the character who best embodies
>the spiritual values of Tolstoy himself.
>Michael McD

  Now wait a minute - I certainly wasn't trying to compare or
contrast Karenin and Levin.  I know that Levin is the character
that Tolstoy likes best - my gripes with Levin are independent
of my complaint with those who would portray Anna Karenina as
the wronged party.

  Levin was an anti-intellectual.  An anti-intellectual not because
he rejected the sophistries of the intellectuals with whom he came
in contact, not because he didn't have the ambition to be an
intellectual, but quite simply because he didn't have the capacity
to be an intellectual.  To be capable of rational thought does not
mean that one isn't open to "feelings," to emotions.  One could
benefit from a contrast between Levin, the Tolstoyan hero, and
any of the Dostoevskian heroes.  Consider the approach to the
problem of God's existence taken by Ivan or Alyosha Karamazov
to that of Levin.  Levin is not only incapable of developing such
arguments, but he is quite likely incapable of understanding them.
In the end, Levin only decides to believe in God since, well, that's
what he's been taught, and lots of people do believe.  His mind is
unable to grasp the basic issues, let alone the subtleties that
torture Ivan.  Yes, there is room in the world for people like Levin
who aren't particularly bright.  That isn't my objection to his
character.  My objection to his character is that Tolstoy is trying
to *glorify* this anti-intellectualism, this dumb cow approach to
life.

                          -Tim
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Date:         Sun, 26 Jul 1992 11:22:14 EDT
From:         Tim Johnson <PH408014@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      who was really wronged?

>Hardly anybody mentions what glares out at me from _Anna
>Karenina_.  The unfairness of gender role....
>And even Vronsky, an equal
>partner in the deed central to the story, could attend
>the bloody opera without being insulted.
>
>I tell ya, it ticks me off royally.  She was, for all and
>all, a Lady of character and standing, and she deserved
>much better of us...

  I don't know that I agree with all of this.  Certainly
Vronsky should have been treated to the same disgrace as
Anna, but on the other hand, it was Karenin who was wronged,
and Anna the one who wronged him.  Despite Tolstoy's (IMHO)
weak attempts in the latter part of the novel to try to
"balance" Karenin's character and show a bad side, or attempt
to impute some culpability, the fact remains that Anna left
him, and not on account of his own behavior.  For the better
part of the novel Karenin remains the gentleman, despite the
difficulty of his situation and the fickle Anna's manuevering.
Anna left him because of the lure of the forbidden, the greener
grass on the other side of the fence - but there was certainly
nothing in *particular* about Vronsky himself that provided the
attraction.  If she had been married to Vronsky, she might well
have found herself attracted by the respectful gentleman Karenin,
the foil for her current husband.  Of course, Karenin would not
have seduced her, and we wouldn't have a tragedy.  But Anna gave
herself up to her fall, she welcomed it.  While the reaction of
society in the novel may have seemed extreme, and, perhaps, unfair
in singling out Anna over Vronsky, Anna certainly deserved the
treatment she got.  Whether or not society was hypocritical in its
condemnation, the condemnation was not misplaced.  She ruined Karenin,
not because she truly loved Vronsky, but only because she wanted
the thrill of an illicit affair.  She was just as unhappy with
Vronsky when their relationship became more settled - and she
should have given Karenin the benefit of the lengths she went to
in order to keep the relationship with Vronsky stable.

  The person of character in this novel was Karenin.  (And perhaps
Levin, though Levin was such an unbelievably slow character.  I would
have gone nuts in his company.  Especially his astonishing certainty
that despite the fact he couldn't justify his views or support his
views, they must be correct.  Good thinking.  On the basis of what?
Or his approach to religion - "just don't think about it.  just
believe in it."  Yeah.  Thanks.  Anti-intellectualism practiced only
because he was incapable of intellectualism.  The person who most
deserves pity is Kitty.)

                                 -Tim
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Date:         Sun, 26 Jul 1992 00:09:00 EST
From:         ROBERT77@SNYBUFVA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: it would be madness

You have another problem there!!!

MBM@PASCL said that they would volunteer as editor and that they would be
alerted by "Surrealism"... however, people are not suppose to know the previous
lines...

Solution... (if nobody minds who the editor is...) Send me the 1 line.... via
my adress, rather than the mailing list.... after I have 30 (good number
suggested) lines, I will send the "poem" over the list!

my adress is...

robert77@SNYBUFVA

ok..... also... I will start the "poem" with the line that came to me at the
earliest date and time... fairs fair...
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Date:         Thu, 23 Jul 1992 09:48:51 EST
From:         SIF <finkelst@SIAM.ORG>
Subject: re: Melville
Comments: To: literary@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

          Fortunately, when I read _Moby Dick_ in college, I had one
          of those wonderful professors that are part scholar, part
          actor, part story-teller.  He brought the Book to life with
          his anecdotes about Melville the man and the controversy
          surrounding _Moby Dick_ when it was first published, along
          with intelligent insights about the symbolism and meaning of
          the work.  As a result, I hold the Book in the highest
          esteem, along with that professor, with whom I took many a
          subsequent course.  However, I can see how that book, along
          with any other, can be easily mistaught, causing students to
          be frustrated and bored.  This happened with me when a
          substitute teacher  that I was cursed with in high school
          murdered _The Scarlet Letter_, which I finally picked up
          again nearly ten years later.  During that near-decade, the
          book, which is arguably the best novel of the American
          renaissance, was anathema to me. (Incidentally, Hawthorne
          was one of the above-mentioned professor's pet authors.
          Thank God.)

          Susan Finkelstein
          finkelst@siam.org
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Posted-Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 16:22:22 EDT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.literary
Date:         Sat, 25 Jul 1992 16:22:22 EDT
From:         MM <mbm@PACSCL.UARC.UPENN.EDU>
Subject:      spoiling Ann Karenina
Comments: To: literary@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

	One of the defining characteristics of novels as remarkably,
implausibly, good as _Anna Karenina_ is that their greatness does not
lie primarily in their stories conceived as plot. You can't spoil a
book like that by "giving away its ending".  Nowadays there is a big
emphasis in popular books and movies on the importance of suspense,
but suspense is really a very minor aspect of good novels.  Someone
help me to clarify this, because I don't mean I don't enjoy the story.
I do, and I can, again and again, because of the way it is told.
Michael B.
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