From: hakim@bigq.enet.dec.com (Kamran Hakim)
Subject: Re: Reply to  Bahaies  gang
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 23:01:24 GMT


SM = Seyyed Mahdavian
KH = Kamran Hakim

Dear Seyyed, SallAm

I am glad to see your reply. This is the level I want us to conduct
a discussion if possible. Thank you for your kindness. I think that 
continuation of our discussion, in similar manner to your most recent 
reply, fulfills your objectives, and perhaps offers an environment to 
discuss the questions about Baha'i Faith which are bothersome to you 
or others, which I consider to be my objective. The worst which can 
happen is that we agree to disagree and the best is that I might see 
the truth in you say, the middle ground would be mutual respect and 
understanding.

SM>I also respect the very fact that you are "thinking" and "reasoning".
SM>But I am sorry, I cannot respect your believes. 

This is fine. I do not expect you to ACCEPT my beliefs. However, I am
sure that we can have a respectful discussion.

SM>The Prophet(s) said:
SM>"The strongest handle of faith is loving for God and hating for God"
SM>I am a descendent of Ebrahim (a)  and Mohammad (s) who broke the Idols.
SM>It is my duty as a Moslem to invite you to come back to Islam and help
SM>you.                         ^^^^^^^^^^                       ^^^^^^^^
   ^^^^
These are both praiseworthy goals. I thank you.

SM>It's also my duty to fight people who deceive my brothers,
                        ^^^^^
SM>no matter defeat or victory.

Seyyed, fighting is a sign of conviction and courage, thus praiseworthy. 
However there are many ways available for one to fight back. I will
address this issue to a greater extent later on.

SM>I am not sure whether this is a sincere question or another trick to change 
SM>the subject of discussion. 

To question my motives is a sign of mindfulness and intelligence on your
part. In regards to my motives I let you be the judge of that, however,
I'd like to say that I was able to get your attention by this question
and elevate the discussion to a higher level. I tend to think that is a
positive thing. I can only hope that you agree.

SM>Sorry that I don't trust you. Unfortunately you
SM>didn't show much sincerity in the first place, when you tried to mislead
SM>us with unnecessary arguments. 

I was not attempting to mislead you in any discussion. Those who are
familiar with my style of writing on the net could tell you that I
question a lot of things and offer examples to suggest that other 
possibilities exists. Any way, if I gave you such an impression I
apologize, since that was not my goal.

SM>Anyway, if what you call a paradox is really
SM>the reason you left Islam, I will not spare a short explanation.

I did not leave Islam. I was born into a Baha'i family. I learned about 
Islam and Jewish Faith from my family (My father side of the family are
Jewish-->Baha'i and my mother side of the family are Muslim-->Baha'i. The
part of the family which retained their original Faiths offered me the
opportunity to learn about Islam and Jewish Faith in practice). It was
my own choice to become a Baha'i as an adult. This, however, does not
mean that I must isolate myself from the truth which you might impart to
me and close the door forever to the possibilities.

 SM>1) What you say is not a paradox, it is a question. The worst thing we can
                                                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
SM>   imagine is that Moslems CANNOT realize when Mahdi (a) comes, what Qur'an 
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
SM>   and the Hadith mean, etc.. Then why is that a contradiction ? (It's not
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
SM>   true, but it's not a contradiction)

Yes. But, the question I'd like to pose is that Hud, Salih, Abraham, 
Moses and Jesus were rejected by the peoples of their time. In fact 
the religious leaders of Their time fiercely rejected them. Prophet
Muhammad was rejected by the idolaters and their chiefs as well as by 
the Jewish and Christian leaders and their followers. Isn't this correct?
Isn't this trend reflective of the HUMAN ATTITUDE to get used to a
given TRADITION and lose the SPIRIT of the message? If the people
of all past religions missed to realize the next Messenger of God,
then what is the guarantee that Muslims do not fall into the same
trap? Clearly Imam Ali suggests that Muslims will ultimately loose
the message of Prophet Muhammad. Please understand that I am using
the example of all previous religions and people's attitudes toward
their Messengers in an inductive argument. Prophet Muhammad uses
inductive arguments in the Qur'an on numerous occasions.

SM>2) Ali (a) is complaining about MOSLEMS not ISLAM. In fact he is praising 
                                   ^^^^^^^     ^^^^^
SM>   Islam and he is sorry that Moslems will not recognize it as they should.

Yes indeed. Please allow me to say that in this discussion my focus is
on the HUMAN FACTOR and NOT on the PHILOSOPHY or the WORDS. We are in 
total agreement here.

SM>   We believe that Mahdi (a) will come and WILL restore the true Islam.
SM>   We believe that he will raise from Mecca (and not from Shiraz), and he
SM>   will establish justice throughout the whole world, not just by giving
SM>   advice, but by the "force of sword" against oppressors.
			 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Seyyed, fighting and "force of sword" could have different meanings
depending on the situation. Sometimes it is the movement of a metal
blade, and sometimes it is the movement of tongue which subdues the
peoples of the world. One of the friends posted something from Ibn-
Khaledun on this issue. Don't you think this might be a possible
explanation to this?

SM>3) Ali (a) is talking about SOME (I believe most) and NOT ALL Moslems...
                                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is true.

SM>His argument does not necessarily apply to Moslems
SM>   at this time, nor to ALL Moslems at any time. In fact Mahdi(a)'s initial
SM>   companions will be 313, the number of Badr warriors (I am telling you this
                         ^^^
SM>   because you love magic numbers so much !). 

Seyyed, there are almost 1 billion Muslims throughout the world. 313
constitutes a very small number. In reference to numbers, you are right
I do like them.

SM>However according to a Hadith
SM>   from Imam Mussa Kazem, people from Yemen and Khorassan (probably meaning
SM>   Iran) will support him later.

Yes. I agree. Baha'is believe that such was fulfilled by Mulla Huseyn
Bushrooyi, the first disciple of The Bab in his march from Khorassan to 
fort Sheykh Tabarsi in Mazandaran.
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