From: BARANSKI@veamf1.nusc.navy.mil (Jim Baranski)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.vw
Subject: Re: Camper .vs Bus
Date: 24 Dec 92 17:27:39 GMT
Organization: Naval Underwater Sound Center, New London CT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.20

Some mail that I recieved which I thought might interest others...

From:	SMTP%"JWALKER@UA1VM.UA.EDU" 23-DEC-1992 14:52:23.01

jim,

i don't have the address here at work, but there is a fellow out in
california (where else?) that creates his own version of the vw camper ...
the difference is that his interior IS removable. it appears that he takes
a regular vw van and adds his stuff onto it. i'll send you the address when
i get home ...

as far as the camper vs bus is concerned, the camper equipment adds several
hundred pounds to the overall weight of the bus. a friend of mine in new york
lost a syncro camper, and claimed that the wreck was partly due to the lop-
sidedness of the vw westfalia equipment: all over on the driver's side. but
he went right out and got another one.

the point being that you are taking an already slow vehicle and adding much
weight and making it slower. also more strain on the engine.

there is a fellow in oregon that sells the little refrigerator/sink for the
bus, along with curtains (which i bought) and some other stuff. z-products is
the name, and he advertises in hot vw's magazine.

i have two vanagons (1988 and 1991 ... water cooled) and have had a 1980
(air-cooled) for 110,000 miles. i much prefer the air-cooled for maintenance
and reliability ... and price of same. the water-cooled parts are murder.
i have camped in mine (with the fold-down rear seat/bed ... optional in 1985)
with not much trouble: can't cook inside, but then, who wants to? an ice chest
works pretty good for about three days.  i have thought about one of these
coleman 12v dc 'electric ice chests', but haven't been able to convince myself
they are worth the $120 price.

the bad part about camping in a vw bus is that you better not have more than
two people. two adults with any kids is just too cramped. also women don't
seem to like the cramped space after a while. so you wind up with some sort of
tent, and just use the van as a 'living room' or storehouse. you really have
to stay out of each other's way.

will send more later.   joel

From:	SMTP%"JWALKER@UA1VM.UA.EDU" 23-DEC-1992 23:11:51.24

the guy in california is
   country homes campers
   56 el pueblo rd.
   scotts valley, ca 95066
   (408) 438-4400

his brochure claims 15 minutes to convert from van to camper and vice versa.
it might be worth the effort to call or write just to get the brochure ... for
ideas and information. don't know about shipping, but i'm sure he would sell
just the cabinets and stuff (without the van). even has optional microwave.

another place is Adventurewagen in Ft. Bragg, California ... but that is the
extent of the only address i have. their camper has a huge fixed roof, rather
than the pop-up of vw and country homes. for that reason, i never pursued it.

now back to your original question: differences amongst the buses. after 1980
(when the vanagon was introduced), there isn't much difference at all between
the models. your 7-passenger, 9-passenger, GL were all the same except for
the number of seats, type of interior (vinyl vs cloth), and trim/accessories
(air conditioning, automatic trans, etc.). the campers had, of course, several
differences from the non-camper models, but little difference between the two
camper models offered: el cheapo did not have a refrigerator, deluxe did. in
the later years of the water-cooled engines, the el cheapo camper was dropped
in the u.s. lots of really neat stuff still sold in germany.

now if you mean what are the differences between the body styles of the buses,
that's a whole different matter. basically there are three body types: T1, T2,
and T3 (with the newest Eurovan being called T4 ... 4th generation transporter)

1952-1967: T1 (the old micro-bus). smallest engine (beetle-type, cheapest to
              fix, hardest to find parts for), slowest, most affected by winds
              and large trucks. but the best for off-road camping (can go most
              anywhere). best year? 1967: 12v electricals, largest engine.

1968-1979: T2 (what i call 'bread-loaf' buses). 1968-1971 had the beetle engine
              whereas 1972-1979 had the porsche 914/vw 411 engine (type 4 motor
              they called it). best year? 1971 (for the beetle engine): disk
              front brakes, and the same wheel that was used from 1971-1991.
              otherwise (for the Type 4 engine), 1978-1979: largest engine,
              tiny bit more room inside, latest refinements.
              still susceptible to cross-winds and trucks, but fun. good in
              off-road going, too. seats are tiresome on long trips.

1980-1983: T3 (vanagons, but air-cooled: same engine as the 1978-1979). best
              interstate bus: good seats, better suspension, really good car.
              only trouble i ever had was my 1980 burned out 2 coils (so i
              carried a spare). still pretty good in the off-road, and much,
              much less susceptible to cross-winds and trucks. really good
              visibility and brakes.

1983-1991: T3 (vanagons, but with water-cooled heads on new engine. 1983 was
             reportedly a half-year: some air-cooled still sold). now the off-
              road ability suffers: engine torque is not in right rpm range
              (or something): gets stuck much easier. 1983-1984 had problems
              with new engine. 1985 started 'weekender package' (fold-down bed
              as 3rd seat) and better sliding door mechanism. in 1986, they
              added power mirrors as an option (really great. high cost $750 to
              retrofit to earlier models, but i thoght it was worth it).
              best years? if i could do it over, i'd go get 1980-1983 air-
              cooled, and try to add the features from the 1986-1991 that i
              wanted (sliding door...maybe; mirrors ... definitely; rear bed ..
              definitely) ... but all that time and trouble to track down the
              stuff you want in junk yards.

if you intend to camp in koa or some such places, then a 1986-1991 will do very
nicely. if you intend to camp a bit further into the woods, get a 1980-1983 air
cooled vanagon or a 1978-1979 bus. the vanagon will just get you there a bit
more comfortably and quicker (more aerodynamic, don't you know.).

if this is none of what you wanted to know, well, sorry. i can read the net but
the ability to post doesn't work right ("it's not a bug, it's a Feature!") for
now. if some of this is what you wanted, but is incomplete, let me know ... i'm
full of opinions. been driving vw buses since 1970 ... even had a 1968 crewcab
pickup truck ... really neat car. never had a camper, though ... just don't do
that kind of camping ... refrigerator, sink, and all. anyway, good luck.

   joel

From:	SMTP%"schwarze@io.nosc.mil" 23-DEC-1992 18:14:09.59

Jim,

I own a '73 Campervan with an extended top (so you can stand up in- side).  I
have campled in it for years and I can tell you that it is *GREAT!*. I get 21
mpg and it goes places no other R.V. can.  I have a refrigerator, stove, and
sink built in.  I'm thinking of removing the sink because I  almost never use
it, and I also am thinking of removing the fridge because it is heavy and noisy
(when you're trying to sleep).  They have new portable fridges now that plug
into cigarette lighters for about $100 (but they only cool to 40 degrees below
the ambient temperature).  The bed is really nice to have, though, as is a
propane tank and heater.  If you are concerned about space I would try to find
a van with the camper setup and then remove  everything except the bed and
build another bench seat against the drivers side wall.  Get one of those
plug-in coolers and a spare battery to run it and you would have the best of
both worlds... Lots of space for people and cargo when you need it, and a great
camper for the weekends (when you throw in the cooler and heater and open up
the bed).  Hope it works out for you! 

David Schwarze schwarze@delphi.nosc.mil

From:	VEAMF1::BARANSKI     24-DEC-1992 12:06:47.72

Joel,

Thanks a lot for all your info on campers, that's just what I've been looking
for!

Are the vw vans less prone to rusting out the frame then bugs?

I've only had the chance to -look- at a few old vans; let me see if I've got
the layout accurately...

The standard raised engine compartment in the back, with a luggage / cargo area
above it.  Are there some vans where the top of the engine compartment is flush
with the rest of the floor?  (I don't think so, but I'm not sure)

Two more or less standard bench seats in front of the engine section bolted to
the floor. Are these usually easily removable, or can they be made so?  Can
some of the seatbacks flip down forward to make it easy to get into the back
seat with a full bench seat in the front?  Can some of the seatbacks flip down
backwards to form a flush sleeping bed surface with the two bench seats?

I think I've seen some busses where there there are two bucket seats behind the
front driver and passenger seats facing backwards, do I have this right?  Are
these usefull?

Some campers have shallow full height cabinets on each side of the engine
compartment...  I'm not real convinced that I like these there.  How usefull
are these?

Some campers have the majority of the equipment on the side behind the driver;
some have the camping equipment behind the two front seats, with a flip up /
down counter top in the middle, and sometimes on each side, partly blocking the
side door.

What other cabinet/camping arraingements are there?  Which are conveinent/
inconveinent?

I understand that the popup roofs are partially for standing room, and on some
there is a small bed in the back on top of the normal roof under the popup
roof?  How good are these?  Are these mostly for kids?  It seems that some
popups only pop up one end and slant down to the other end; do some pop up on
both ends?

Jim.
Newsgroups: rec.autos.vw