HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: nmiller@starbase.trincoll.edu (norman miller)
Subject: Re: ACLU/AJC Menorah Police?
Organization: Trinity College, Hartford, CT.
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 21:53:19 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.210511.21577@netcom.com> strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternl
ight) writes:
>
>I don't know if Norman Miller is aware of it, but there are now
>large Menorahs all over Los Angeles--in public parks, shopping
>centers, etc.  Most of them have been erected and are lit each
>night by Chabad.
>
>
>The danger is when the State does it, or when the State starts
>picking and choosing among whose symbols are displayed,
>or when symbols are used for evangelical, rather than commemorative
>purposes. None of those apply to the Los Angeles situation.
>
>David

If they're in a public park then the state is obviously involved.
There's the problem.

nm
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: nmiller@starbase.trincoll.edu (norman miller)
Subject: Re: ACLU/AJC Menorah Police?
Organization: Trinity College, Hartford, CT.
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 19:53:53 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.183643.25572@ennews.eas.asu.edu> makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.e
du (David Makowsky) writes:

>However, it would seem
>that they are fighting for a secular society without any religion at
>all.  If you prefer that, I suggest you contemplate the consequences.

I have, while rejecting the illogical canard that the AJC and the ACLU
are trying to establish a secular religion-free society.  And the con-
sequence I envision is that my grandchildren won't have to relive the
humiliation and pain that I and my generation went through when there
was no alternative but to sing that Christ was born in Bethlehem, etc.

The simple and elemental fact is that Jews make up about two percent of
the population of the U.S. and that proportion is falling.  A religious
society can only become what the Governor of Mississippi already says
it is.

Norman Miller

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: gertler@cyclone.sbi.com (Don Gertler)
Subject: Re: Conversion Question
Originator: scj@israel.nysernet.org
Reply-To: <gertler@cyclone.sbi.com (Don Gertler)>
Organization: Nysernet
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 01:47:50 GMT

cohen@quartz.ciw.edu (Ronald Cohen) writes:
> <gertler@cyclone.sbi.com (Don Gertler)> writes:
> >stank@cbnews1.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:

> >You clearly agree that such a thing as Jewish law exists, since you
> >use the terms "our law" and "G-d's Law."  What does this law entail?
> >Does it include the right, under the "law" for every individual Jew,
> >whether O, C or R to choose to do whatever he/she sees fit?  If so,
> >is there another such legal system, in which one's sole obligation
> >is to choose one's obligations?  If not, where is the line drawn to
> >define Jews' obligations?
 
> One thing is clear--it doesn't give every jew the right to judge
> any other jew, except under special circumstances, and that
> judgment can only be passed by a Bet Din.

Agreed.  I don't believe I've suggested otherwise.

> Furthermore, there is
> special consideration for a convert to Judaism, and any cause of
> distress to the convert on the basis of their conversion is one
> thing for which no repentence is possible, if I remember
> correctly, and is a very serious sin.

Offhand I don't know the details, but it is clearly forbidden
even to remind a convert of his/her conversion, unless that person
brings it up.  And you are correct that it is a very serious sin.

> Now according to you they
> are not really converts (maybe no converts are real converts to
> you?)  or you are just not sure of whether they are really kosher
> converts or not.

It's fun to be baited by the likes of your parenthetical pseudo-question.
Well, if you must know, I do believe in kosher conversion.

> If the latter, you are taking a big risk to
> commit verbal ona'a agaist converted readers of this newsgroup, as
> well as in your personal life.

If a person in this newsgroup has had a kosher conversion, then I have
said nothing to offend that person.  If someone has had a "conversion"
that is not kosher, then there was no conversion at all, so I am again
not reminding a convert of his/her previous life.  If the conversion
was questionable, then you are quite correct in stating that I should
be careful not to discuss that person's previous life as a Gentile.
But I was unaware that we were discussing a particular individual.
I was also unaware that I had claimed that that individual had an
improper conversion.

Please point out the error of my ways.

Thank you.

-Don Gertler
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: gertler@cyclone.sbi.com (Don Gertler)
Subject: Re: Talmud on determining sex
Originator: scj@israel.nysernet.org
Reply-To: <gertler@cyclone.sbi.com (Don Gertler)>
Organization: Nysernet
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 17:56:32 GMT

mark@fenris.albany.edu (Mark Steinberger) writes:
> strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight) writes:

> >My orthodox Grandfather (O"H) told my father who told me that according
> >to the Talmud if the woman has an orgasm first the child will be
> >a boy.
> 
> How do you explain boy-girl twins? ;-)

Tie.

-Don Gertler
From: colten@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (marc.colten)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Jewish Christmas Carol Hits
Summary: Richard Adler?
Date: 23 Dec 92 21:09:37 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <1hahp3INNa91@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, ad980@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Paul S. Wolf) writes:
> 
> In a previous article, Arthur_T_Hu@cup.portal.com () says:
> 
> >I never thought about this before, but after hearing Barbara Streisand
> >doing a christmas song, it occured to me that she's Jewish, isn't she?
> >So what are the biggest Christmas hits sung by Jews? I guess music is
> >music, and a buck is a buck. Was there ever a Hanakuh hit record?
> >
> Of course, Mel Torme's "The Christmas Song" (Chestnuts Roasting on an
> Open Fire...) comes to mind first.

I want to respond to this, but I know I'm gonna get my singers
mixed up.  The name Richard Adler comes to mind - operatic type? -
not sure if that's the one, but if he is, and he's Jewish, he's
some some VERY heavy Xian stuff - not just pap holiday music.
Ave Maria and that kind of thing. 

Can someone confirm, or correct?

marc colten
From: ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Israel's deportation of over 400 Palestinians
Keywords: human rights civil rights Israel Palestinians
Date: 21 Dec 92 17:59:13 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

In article <1gt2k7INNjkm@mizar.usc.edu> srose@mizar.usc.edu (Steve
Rose) writes:

>Israel's deportation of over 400 Palestinians is wrong, for at least three
>reasons.
> 1. It is illegal (according to Israeli, as well as international
>    law).

Kicking out those 400 criminals is a legal action, both according to
Israeli law and according to the Israeli military law at Judea samaria
and gaza strip.
The international law is irrelevant since the status of those area are
not as oof areas occupied from any state.
( remamber Jordenian occupation over judea and samaria was an illegal
one , no country but England and Pakistan and jordan itself ,
recognised that occupation , egypt never declared the Gaza strip to be
a part of Egypt).


> 2. It is only the most recent example of a sick policy of collective
>    punishment.

Each of the criminals was kicked out because of his own deeds, each of
them joined the murdering collective, That issued a colective death
punishment to all jews in Israel.

> 3. It may well destroy what is left of the peace process.

Why ?
If our partners do want peace, then they should be happy if something
is done in order to secure their about to be friends. So we have to
expect Arabs helping Israel in every action against the murdering
organisation : Hamas , democratic front , Plo , Hawatme ..

We shell overcome      Gideon Ehrlich     ERETS YISRAEL



Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: eggertj@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41)
Subject: Re: Name of Palestinian Deportees (part i)
Reply-To: eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu
Organization: MIT Lincoln Lab - Group 41
	<EGGERTJ.92Dec30223711@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu>
	<1993Jan1.084249.143@vms.huji.ac.il>
	<EGGERTJ.93Jan1183628@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu> <isaac.726061804@etrog>
Date: 3 Jan 93 16:18:34

In article <isaac.726061804@etrog> isaac@etrog.se.citri.edu.au (Dr Isaac Balbin) writes:
>   eggertj@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41) writes:
>
>   >Arrest does not imply guilt.  Guilt is established in a court of law,
>   >not by a (military) policeman.
>   A court of law determined  that there were grounds for deportation. QED

Not quite.  A court of law determined that the deportations could go
forward, but that the government would have to provide grounds for
such deportations within a specified time.  A strange way to deport
someone, I think, to first do it and then post facto to justify it.

>   >Now were the Palestinian deportees criminally prosecuted at all?  Nope.
>   >They were punished without a trial, and in a manner that violates
>   >international law.
>   Debateable. 

If that is the extent of your debate, you won't get very far.
--
=Jim  eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)
From: rlk@underprize.think.com (Robert Krawitz)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: The Jewish nose myth
Date: 22 Dec 92 09:31:53
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge Mass., USA
	<1992Dec21.135048.10742@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>
	<1992Dec21.234143.24237@netcom.com>
	<1992Dec22.133431.18867@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: underprize.think.com
In-reply-to: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com's message of Tue, 22 Dec 1992 13:34:31 GMT

In article <1992Dec22.133431.18867@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes:

   In article <1992Dec21.234143.24237@netcom.com> madhaus@netcom.com
   (Maddi Hausmann) writes:

   >saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes: >
   >EXTDSM@LURE.LATROBE.EDU.AU (MADDISON,David) writes: >>

   >>>I already posted this on Oct 14, 1992 but the nose thread seems to have come 
   >>>up again in a big way so here is a rehash of what I posted before. This may be
   >>>of help.

   >>Instead of "nose thread," shouldn't that be "nose hair"?

   >I smell a flamefight coming.  Better keep your nose out of this.

   And how can you be so sure?  Do you have some secret prognosticating
   abilities?  Maybe you read it in Nostril-damus?

Sam, you're going schnozz to schnozz with a professional here...
--
ames >>>>>>>>>  |	Robert Krawitz <rlk@think.com>	245 First St.
bloom-beacon >  |think!rlk				Cambridge, MA  02142
harvard >>>>>>  .	Thinking Machines Corp.		(617)234-2116

Member of the League for Programming Freedom -- write lpf@uunet.uu.net
From: a0cb@rigel.cs.pdx.edu (Chris Bertholf)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Consultations with a Rabbi
Date: 29 Dec 92 20:05:44 GMT
Article-I.D.: pdxgate.6625

saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes:

>In article <6595@pdxgate.UUCP> a0cb@odin.cc.pdx.edu (Chris Bertholf) writes:

>>Yes. Close your ears and eyes.  Don't listen. Don't think about how
>>it may be wrong (or right) and dismiss it completely.  It doesn't
>>have the slightest meaning in your lives, so ignore it instead of
>>understanding it, and being better preparred to deal with similar
>>arguments with thoughtful, reasoned responses.

>It is not an issue of rejecting without understanding.  How many times
>must I read the same stuff with the same fraud before I can reject it
>from its first sentence?  Why bother reading it after the Nth time?  Why
>waste my time whn it is the same lies, fraud, deception, and garbage,
>possibly slightly (at best)  repackaged?

How would you know that without reading it?  Again, the stupidity of
some people never ceases to amaze me.

You are saying that there is a writing (call it P) and that there is another
writing (call it Q) such that if you have read P, and Q is on the same topic,
although by a different author with possibly different resources and sources,
that you know the contents of Q from P.  BWAHHH HAAA HAAAA HAAA! Too funny!

You also call it "the same stuff with the same fraud" without having any
idea what the document contains.

Get a grip, then repost something intelligent.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: bob1@cos.com (Bob Blackshaw)
Subject: Re: Happy Chanuka!
Organization: Corporation for Open Systems
Distribution: world 
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 18:47:16 GMT

In <lexier.724816109@sfu.ca> lexier@fraser.sfu.ca (Mr. Spock) writes:



>                  *                                  o
>                 ***                     o  o  o  o  I  o  o  o  o
>                *****                    I  I  I  I  I  I  I  I  I
>               *******                   I  I  I  I  I  I  I  I  I
>              *********                  I  I  I  I  I  I  I  I  I
>             ***********                 \  \  \  \  I  /  /  /  /
>            *************                 \  \  \  \ I /  /  /  /
>           ***************                 \  \  \  \I/  /  /  /
>          *****************                 \  \  \  I  /  /  /
>         *******************                 \  \  \ I /  /  /
>        *********************                 \  \  \I/  /  /
>       ***********************                 \  \  I  /  /
>                 !!!                            \  \ I /  /
>                 !!!                             \  \I/  /
>                 !!!                              \  I  /
>                 !!!                               \ I /
>              =========                             \I/
>                                         =========================== 
>          MERRY CHRISTMAS
>                 AND                            HAPPY CHANUKAH
>          A HAPPY NEW YEAR


>     From Lyle Lexier (Mr. Spock)

>-- 
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>|  Lyle Lexier        | There should be no discrimination against any person   |
May I add my wishes too. Here is hoping the 'lights' will shine into
the hearts and minds of all to dispell hatred and distrust.

Bob

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: Larry Israel <VSLARRY@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL>
Subject:      Mezuza Joke
Originator: scj@israel.nysernet.org
Reply-To: <Larry Israel <VSLARRY@WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL>>
Organization: Nysernet
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1992 12:10:17 GMT

A not overly-Jewish man moved into a new house, and his friend gave him a
mezuza as a housewarming present. The man opened the case, took out the
parchment, and threw it away. The friend, aghast, asked him what he was
doing.

"I don't need the instructions. You just hang it up with two nails."
Organization: The American University - University Computing Center
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 19:09:10 EST
From: <CARIAN@auvm.american.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Conversion Question

In article <9212232205.AA25066@cyclone.sbi.com>, gertler@cyclone.sbi.com (Don
Gertler) says:
>
>I may be mistaken, but I thought that originally the Law of Return
>always deferred to the (Orthodox) rabbinate.  It's relativley recent
>that the fight to accept any flavor of "convert" has arisen, thereby
>changing the status quo.  (I'm sure I'll be corrected on this if I'm
>wrong.  Of course, this is scj.  I'll probably be corrected even if
>I'm right.)

I would't want to disappoint you.

The Law of Return *originally* did not define the term "Jew" at all.
In the 1960s, following the Brother Daniel case, it was amended to read
that *for the purposes of implementing the Law of Return* a "Jew" is
"one who was born to a Jewish mother, or has converted (she-hitgayer)."
The Orthodox parties wanted to add the phrase "according to halachah"
but this was not accepted.

The status quo accepts all converts. This was reaffirmed by the Israeli
Supreme Court in 1988 or 1989 (the Shoshana Miller case). It is the
Orthodox parties, and especially Chabad, that seeks to change the status
quo. After all, the whole argument whenever it is raised is about amending
the LoR to *exclude* non-O converts, not about amending it to *include*
them.

Rabbi Charles Arian
CARIAN@american.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: hillelm@comm.mot.com (Hillel Meyers)
Subject: Re: Thora on CD-ROM
Organization: Motorola Land Mobile Products Sector
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 09:28:20 GMT

In article <724669708.F00001@krypta.in-berlin.de>, alec@krypta.in-berlin.de (Alexandros Gougousoudis) writes:
|> Hi,
|> 
|> 
|> I'am searching the Thora with hebraeic letters on Disk or CD-ROM, can
|> anybody help me? The local jewish community couldn't help me, but was
|> interessted either. They told me, maybe in bigger comunities like in Israel
|> or the USA people might know where to get these software.
|> Now my question, does anybody know a distributor or dealer for these disks,
|> if so please send me the FAX-Number or Telephonenumber (no 800- Number
|> !!!!!!!!). These Software is existing, employees of the jewish libary saw a
|> demonstartion of this in a newsletter, but adresses were not listed.
|> Thanks for your help
|> 
|> greetings from Berlin
|>   Alex
|> 
|>  * Origin: Reply-To: 'alec@krypta.in-berlin.de' (2:2403/41)

There is a company located in chicago, called Davka that writes and markets
all sort of Hebrew programs.  I know that are on Appleshare but I do not have their email address.

   Davka Corp.
   7074 Western Ave.
   Chicago, Il 60645   USA

   Ph:  (312)465-4070
        (800)621-8227

   Email: AppleLink - V0185
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld)
Subject: Re: Jewish Charities
Reply-To: er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld)
Organization: Bell Communications Research (Bellcore)
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 92 20:04:34 GMT
Keywords: disgusting

In article <1992Dec29.195733.15917@cbnewsk.cb.att.com>, ayf@pruxp.att.com (Avi Feldblum) writes:
|> say $36 to cover the cost of the book. When you ignore them, they keep
|> sending you reminder cards. The most recent was one called "Ness
|> Chanuka". I'm putting together a nasty letter to send back to them.

I got that one!  And I already knew enough to ignore it.  We got a good laugh 
out of that letter, though.  It was written like a Purim parody of the 
stereotypical "yeshivish" person's style of talking.  "Yunge Leit" indeed!
-- 
Elie Rosenfeld      | "I am what I am, Leila -- and if there are self-made
Bellcore            |  purgatories, then we all must live in them.
Piscataway, N.J.    |  Mine is no worse than someone else's."
(908) 699-8800      |                     - Spock, "This Side of Paradise"
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight)
Subject: Re: Feld Brothers
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 20:32:31 GMT


If the news article is accurate and they found ski masks and plastic
handcuffs in the trunk, either we're going to be treated to a rather
more delectable explanation than that the two kitchen knives were
for keeping Kosher, or the Feld Brothers are part of next year's
Cirque du Soleil, and have an act in which they ski down a hill
handcuffed.

It cannot be that those goods were there unnoticed when they rented
the car unless the previous renter also had a map of the target
house.

I say let the court system work it out. There's something odd
here that means it's not at all clear that an injustice is being
done.

Any second now I expect to see a left-wing campaign called "Free
the Santa Clara Two."

It's going to make Jews look pretty silly or worse if they mount
a public defense campaign and the Felds were, indeed planning
to commit a felony.

If they were so doing, the "free the captives" argument does not apply;
there is no halachic obligation to free those who are the subject
of a legitimate Din because they are charged with a crime that
would be illegal halachically, such as a planned kidnapping or
physical abuse.

David
-- 
David Sternlight
RIPEM key on server
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: nmiller@starbase.trincoll.edu (norman miller)
Subject: Re: The difference between a chasid and a misnagid
Organization: Trinity College, Hartford, CT.
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 01:17:23 GMT

In article <isaac.724976007@etrog> isaac@etrog.se.citri.edu.au (Isaac Balbin) wr
ites:

>I believe that views such as Miller's which use the word `heresy' without
>any substantive support are dangerous, divisive and to be viewed with
>contempt.
>
>If Miller wishes to argue the point (and I am not a Chosid), let him begin
>with some sources. I am ready.

Well, it was a slow Monday and I thought I'd try to stir things up.
If Isaac Balbin is ready, I invite him to argue first against the
Brody herem of 1772(?) and second against the recent declaration by none
other than Rav Shacht that Habad is heretical (kofar b'ikor).

Those are the kind of sources that he takes seriously.  There are others
that I take seriously and which I will be ready to discuss as things move
along.

Norman Miller


Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: sharon@unixland.natick.ma.us (Sharon Machlis Gartenberg)
Subject: Re: ACLU/AJC Menorah Police?
Organization: Unixland Public Access Unix  (508) 655-3848
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 17:11:00 GMT

strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight) writes:

>Does anyone know what the h... is going on when the AJC tries to stop
>a menorah lighting?

I don't know the specifics of the Beverly Hills menorah-lighting ceremony,
nor did I hear that the ACLU tried to stop it. However, if this is in fact
true, my guess would be that the menorah-lighting was taking place on
public property.

It is the ACLU's position that *no* religious activities and symbols 
belong on public property -- that goes just as much for menorah lighting,
which is a religious ceremony, as it does for creches and crosses.

It would surprise me if the American Jewish Committee actually went to
court to stop it, too. However, if the AJC has supported the ACLU's
efforts to keep the religious symbols of Christmas off government
property, it would indeed be hypocritical to support a Jewish religious
activity on the same property, wouldn't it?

Sharon
k
-- 
Sharon Machlis Gartenberg
Framingham, MA  USA
email: sharon@unixland.natick.ma.us   or   uunet!think.com!unixland!sharon
Xref: sparky soc.culture.jewish:23964 soc.culture.arabic:5913
From: cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: deportation
Date: 26 Dec 1992 17:21:15 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


 wc4209@writer.yorku.ca (Irene Berkovich) writes:

>Funny, I don't recall seeing any posts from you shedding your
>crocodile tears when Kuwait expelled over 100,000 Palestinian
>residents after the Gulf war.  Mind you, these were not people
>inciting others to murder like the Hamas boys.  They were kicked out
>just for being Palestinian.  And not a peep from you, or any of the
>hippocrates at the United Nations who routinely ignore Arab civil
>rights abuse.

>But I guess thats okay.  Arabs are allowed to kill, or expel one
>another by your logic.  You only scream when Israel is involved.

However there is a difference here.  In Kuwait, Palestinians were
not kicked from their homeland.  In Israel, Palestinians were kicked
from Gaza Strip and West Bank.  

If some jews argue Gaza Strip and West Bank are not for Palestinians,
then we come to the root question that is: Where jews came from and where
palestinians came from?  The outsiders vs. the insiders..

Palestine is NOT "a land without a nation for a nation with out land."

-- 
                  ___________________ cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu _____________
                 (______   _  |   _  |_
_____ H A M Z A ________) |-| |_ |-| | |
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish