HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mpaul@unlinfo.unl.edu (marxhausen paul)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Honorary Catholic
Date: 16 Oct 92 08:21:42 GMT
Organization: University of Nebraska--Lincoln

By the looks of my mail the last couple of days, it would appear that
the magic of "charitable-groups-exchanging-mailing-lists" I have become
an honorary Catholic of sorts.  Literature detailing how I can have my
intercessions included on a Christmas Novena at the Shrine of St. Jude
was one clue, but the invitation to become a member of the Sacred Heart
Auto League, complete with my own little dashboard reminder card...why,
what born-and-raised LCMS Lutheran could resist an invitation like that?

These items are interesting and mildly amusing, I have had many educational
discussions with RC brothers and sisters in connection with this newsgroup,
but they were holding out on me...nobody ever filled me in that I, too,
could be a member of the Auto League.  What other things haven't you guys
told me?  Fess up..........

--
paul marxhausen .... ....... ............. ............ ............ .......... 
 .. . .  . . . university of nebraska - lincoln .  . . .. . .  .. . . . . . . .
 .     .    .  .   .     .   .  .    .   .  .   .    .   .  grace .   .    .  . 
   .         .       .      .        .        .      .        .   happens .
From: tomault+@cs.cmu.edu (Thomas Galen Ault)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Created in his image?
Date: 16 Oct 92 05:22:49 GMT
Article-I.D.: geneva.Oct.16.01.22.48.1992.27236
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

[Bunch of stuff about mankind not being made in the image of God deleted.]

As many others have said, most Christians take "image of God" to be something
a little different from the physical appearance of God.  However, I'd like to
put a little different spin on this discussion.  

The Catholic Church teaches that this phrase means not only that mankind
possesses some of the communicable attributes of God, but that humanity has
an inherent nobility given to it by God.  By making man "in His image," God
has declared that humans are NOT mere pieces of flesh, but little sparks of
God, and that therefore, the human person has inherent dignity and worth in
God's eyes.  This is the wellspring for the Catholic teachings against
abortion, euthenasia, and human rights -- in all cases, man must recognize
the inherent value that God has given to not only himself, but also his fellow
men.

Furthermore, the Fall has not stripped mankind of this nobility.

[HOLD IT!  Don't hit those follow-up keys just yet.  Wait 'till the end of
 the article please.]

This DOES NOT MEAN that there is no gulf between humanity and God (the gulf was
immeasurable before the Fall, and eating the apple didn't make it any smaller.)
or that a human being can come to God on his own.  What it means is that,
despite the horror of Adam & Eve's sin, even their disobedience was not
enough to completely destroy the goodness that God has imparted to His
creation.  While mankind's Will and Ability to do Good was weakened greatly 
by the Fall, it was never completely destroyed by it.  This Good can NEVER
cross the chasm of Holiness that separates God and humanity, but it exists
even in "unsaved" individuals.

The implication of all this is that _all_ people, Christian or not, are
entitled to the same basic rights, and are to be treated with dignity and
respect, even if they have done nothing to deserve that respect.  One cannot
hold out the hand of charity to Christians and withhold it from those who
do not believe.  One cannot "bomb them into oblivion," because "who cares,
they're all Moslems anyway."  (Incidentally, I have actually heard someone
who claimed to be a Christian say this.)  All human life is precious, and
should be treated that way.

[Please don't bring up such things as the Crusades or the Inquisition.
 There's been about 500-700 years of theology and spiritual development
 since then.  In many respects, that's kind of like rejecting a fourty-year
 old speaker because of something she did when she was eight.]

Tom Ault
From: allan@sunk.hc.ti.com (Allan Poindexter)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: damnation
Date: 15 Oct 92 02:10:41 GMT

[Discussion of purgatory between eje and rexlex. - dex]

Eric writes:

   I don't hear too many Protestant preaching on 1 Cor 3:10ff much.

I suspect, Eric, that you don't hear very many Protestants then.  I have
heard this verse exegeted numerous times by Protestants.  My Brethren and
E. Free friends are especially fond of it.

Rexlex:
   > If that doesn't bother you, so be it.  But just let it be known that
   > it is not a doctrine of either the Scriptures, of Christ or of the
   > early fathers.

Eric:
   There is also patristic evidence for purgatory.  It was also a doctrine of the
   Jews of the time; read Josephus, On Hades:

   AN EXTRACT OUT OF JOSEPHUS' DISCOURSE TO THE GREEKS CONCERNING HADES 

Josephus is a tenuous connection to the early fathers at best.  Do you (Eric)
have any actual patristic literature on this?  You usually do and I am a
little surprised that you didn't use any this time but went with a quote
from Josephus in stead.

dex
From: jgj@travis.csd.harris.com (Jeff Jackson)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Christ vs. chronic depression?
Date: 17 Oct 92 02:14:14 GMT
Organization: I would rather be windsurfing.

> Listened in on an interesting ad hoc discussion which boiled down to whether 
> 'Christian' and 'chronically depressed' were mutually exclusive terms.
> What's the net.opinion on this?

I think the book of Job is the answer to this.  The so-called
"patience of Job" is a urban legend.  Job was anything bug patient.
He cursed the day he was born and wished he were dead.  We're talking
some serious depression here.


--
============================================================================
Jeffrey Glen Jackson  _|_Satan jeered, "You're dead meat Jesus, I'm gonna
jgj@ssd.csd.harris.com |     bust you up tonight."
x5120                  | Jesus said, "Go ahead, make my day."
                   ~~~~~~~~~ -- Carman, "The Champion"
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Am I the only person that thinks Perot looks like a Ferengi?
From: emiddlec@mora.gac.edu (Eric Middlecamp)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Rinzai vs. Soto Zen - descriptions?
Date: 8 Oct 1992 09:37:12 -0700
Organization: ----
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu

Relay-Version: VMS News - V6.0-3 14/03/90 VAX/VMS; site gacvx2.gac.edu
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Rinzai vs. Soto Zen - descriptions?
From: emiddlec@mora.gac.edu (Eric Middlecamp)
Date: 7 Oct 92 21:10:53 -0600
Distribution: world

In article <1aslubINN3bv@sandman.caltech.edu>  writes:
gorilla@cats.ucsc.edu (Christopher John Arnold) writes:
>>I was wondering if anyone can explain the differences between the
>>two schools?

There is a third school called Obaku, I believe.
It holds that chanting the nimbutsu will "save" a
person. When they die, they go to Nirvana..

Nothing more is recquired but this act of faith.
I think it's sad. It's not what Buddha asked people
to do. It's not what Christ asked people to do. It's
just an easy way out. On the other hand, spiritual
capacity varies. Rather, stubborness varies.
From: kish@kish.rutgers.edu (Kish)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Ch'an, Rinzai, Soto, Obaku, Nembutsu, etc.
Date: 12 Oct 92 14:15:47 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

I misquoted the title of Kenneth Kraft's book - it is " Zen -
Tradition and Transition".  Also, Obaku is actually Rinzai Zen with
some borrowing from Nembutsu.  For anyone who might be asking "what is
Nebutsu ?", Nembustu is Pure Land Buddhism, and in Japan the main
practice is centered around chanting "Namo Amida Butsu".
	With respect to the Rinzai/Soto thread, I just purchased
Thomas Cleary's partial translation of Dogen's Shobogenzo.  His
introduction is one of the best essays I've read which underscores the
subtle interbeing between koan practice and zazen.

Yours in Dharma,
-Bill
-- 

PHONE: (908) 932-5026
UUCP : {ames,att,harvard}!uunet!rutgers!jove.rutgers.edu!kish
INTERNET: kish@jove.rutgers.edu
From: Roger Adams <RADAMS@cerritos.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Sex
Date: 11 Oct 1992 23:07:31 -0700
Organization: Cerritos College, Norwalk CA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu

In article <1b2tm2INN48n@sandman.caltech.edu>, 
dkarma@pro-nbs.acme.fred.org (Druta Karma) writes:

> "The devotees of the Lord are released from all kinds of sin because they eat
> food which is offered first for sacrifice. Others, who prepare food for
> personal sense enjoyment, verily eat only sin." 
> 

I think the idea you are presenting here is that you offer your food to
the Lord before you eat it (a custom followed in many religions) and you
may say "Lord, this food is for Your temple, remove any impurities, I offer
it to you alone etc. Om Shanti". This does not mean however that you cannot
enjoy the food.  Moderation in any form is good but the more spiritual you
become the more moderation takes on the form of doing things for God, seeing
the God in others and in yourself (as in seeing the body as a temple of
Spirit) and eventually you may think of God as the Doer in all things.
Moderation then becomes more and more spiritualized until the what you
are moderating is no longer desired or needed. The point here is that you
get a taste of the Bliss of God through meditation or devotion or both and
then you are able to spiritualize your life more and more, always according
to your capacity and evolving disposition. A good disposition for practicing
abstinence from something is to have little or no desire for it which comes
through spiritual practice rather than start with the abstinence and think
that the desire will disappear by trying to forcibly deny it or ignore it
(I think we may be in agreement on this).  Yogananda once said that if you
think of the most enjoyable worldly pleasure and then multiply it by
millions, it still won't add up to the Bliss of God.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
	Roger Adams
	radams@cerritos.edu               To those in whom love dwells,
	Cerritos College                  the whole world is one family.
	11110 Alondra Blvd                             A Hindu Proverb
        Norwalk, California 90650
	USA        		          292 Dwapara :-)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: dkarma@pro-nbs.acme.fred.org (Druta Karma)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Becoming aware
Date: 13 Oct 92 19:38:32 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.44079
Distribution: world
Organization: Pro-nbs.acme.fred.org -- San Diego, Ca (619) 571-0152

In <1bb5igINNhjq@sandman.caltech.edu>
rlb@plex-1.ann-arbor.mi.us (Robin Billings) writes:

>Following a system and applying the teachings of a guru to oneself, one
>denies one's own natural inclinications and tendencies, suppressing onself,
>and never seeing oneself exactly as one is, without condemnation or
>justification; living one's life according to the instructions of another
>we will forever remain second-hand human beings.  The Earth is covered with
>an ocean of sorrow from millenia of this kind of violence toward others and
>ourselves.  Can all this violence, the need for beliefs and systems itself,
>come to an end?  The guru and his followers are the quintessence of violence.
>Can we become free of dependency upon authorities altogether, grow up and
>become responsible for ourselves; responsible for understanding the roots
>of our own violence and fear, without depending upon anybody?  Is not the
>very dependency itself part of the problem?  Tradition is violence.  Let
>us become free of the violence of tradition, of the millenial chain of
>beliefs, dogmas, doctirines, theories, manipulations, and all the ugliness
>perpetrated in the name of beauty.
>

Well, I am going to start out by not following you and what you say. My
personal inclination is to follow a guru, so why should I suppress my natural
inclination and do what you say? That would be violence to my natural
inclination, wouldn't it. It rather seems to me that you yourself are setting
yourself up as a guru, and if anybody was foolish enough to follow what you
are saying, then they would be your disciple wouldn't they? And then you would
be starting a tradition, wouldn't you. So to spare you that shame and
dishonor, I am not going to adopt your opinions. 

In any case, I would not say that following teachers necessarily leads to
violence. It all depends upon whom you follow. If a teacher like Buddha
teachers ahimsa, or nonviolence, and one actually follows that, then that is a
good thing.

Of course, there are bad teachers. Among the worst of them are those who teach
materialistic ideas (there is no soul, no karma, etc.) because followers of
those teachings will remain in the cycle of birth and death, and that is real
violence.

Everybody follows teachers. It starts out with children learning from their
parents, then comes school, etc. That is the natural way that people get
knowledge. So that is also true in spiritual life. So there can be good
teachers and bad teachers. And one should learn to discriminate. And if you
think there should be no teachers, then stop trying to be one yourself. 

All of the problems the world faces comes from people not following the
teachings of genuinely enlightened gurus, and not vice versa.

Druta Karma
From: vvs3564@tamsun.tamu.edu (vishwas)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Ramblings about Life (In a depressed mood) ....
Summary: Life, God, Questions, etc ...
Date: 9 Oct 92 03:19:09 GMT
Organization: ----
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu


	When ? 

Life is like that !
Need lot of courage to live!
Don't know whether one is right or wrong
Don't know what one want or don't want!
Questions look so simple but not are they!
Life is really puzzling!  
One book says one thing Other says another.
One guru says one thing Other says another.
It goes on and on like in circles.
Never ending chaos, continued conflicts
Is it the life you and me wish?
Don't need all the sensual pleasures 
But do mistakes sometimes. Repents about it.
Again starts with fresh mind hoping to find reality.
But how long can one fight?
Crying for help, Crying for love
But no response from you, Why God?
Desireless one wants to be;  Still desiring for your love only!
Is there a paradox you see?
Waiting for you becoming impatient
When this ego is going to die? 
When this prison is going to fall?
When the freedom is going to dawn?
-- 
   <~ 
   _>0mAn \/|s|-|was     
  email address: vvs3564@tamsun.tamu.edu
*****************************************************************************
From: sanders@iitmax.iit.edu (Greg Sanders)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Rinzai vs Soto Zen
Date: 12 Oct 92 20:55:43 GMT
Organization: Illinois Institute of Technology

A couple of postings recently have stated that Soto Zen does not use
koans.  Although most Soto Zen teachers may not use koans in their
teaching, some do.  There are actually at least two volumes of koans
that are Soto rather than Rinzai koans.  There is also strong
evidence that Dogen Zenji (considered the founder of Soto Zen)
probably made substantial use of koans in his own teaching.  It is
a common Zen observation that all varieties of formal Zen practice
are really variations on a theme.

--
sanders@iitmax.iit.edu (Greg Sanders)
From: mw@ki.fht-mannheim.de (Marc Wachowitz)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Becoming aware
Date: 11 Oct 1992 23:24:04 -0700
Organization: Fachhochschule fuer Technik Mannheim
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu

Druta Karma <dkarma@pro-nbs.acme.fred.org> wrote:
: There is a pleasure connected with sex in order to insure procreation. But
: that pleasure is also available to the cats and dogs. And if one is attached
: to that level of pleasure, then one remains in the cycle of birth and death,
: because in order to enjoy the pleasure of genital contact, one has to have a
: material body. And the material body is subject to birth, death, old age, and
: disease. So the pleasure of material genital sex is intimately tangled up
: with the miseries of birth, death, old age, and disease.

Maybe the miseries you associate with the natural changes is "only" a result
of an inappropriate way of living?
Find out how to live, and death is nothing to worry about (nor to repress).
[And I mean without assuming rebirth or similar hopes - whether true or not.]

: Material sex life is brief, mixed with unpleasantness, and the more you try
: to enjoy it the less enjoyable it becomes due to physical limitations,

One might "try" (read: strive) less (but not reject) and enjoy more what's
already there.

: The
: pleasure of material sex, while certainly a pleasure, is mixed with certain
: unpleasant additives which the discriminating pleasure seeker prefers to
: avoid altogether.

Discriminating - well, it seems that's the point.
Consider that not everybody thinks life (with rebirth or not) is something to
be avoided.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Marc Wachowitz, mw@ki.fht-mannheim.de   /  news zombie - reply by e-mail, too
  *  wonder everyday    *    nothing in particular    *    all is special  *
From: lawder@ohsu.EDU (Kathryn Lawder)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Rama info?
Date: 14 Oct 92 05:26:36 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.44084
Distribution: world
Organization: Oregon Health Sciences University

In article <1bb4t5INNh25@sandman.caltech.edu> usenet@udel.edu writes:
>Does anybody out there in netland know of a Buddhist teacher
>who claims to be enlightened named Dr. Frederick Lenz (aka "Rama")?
>
I crossed paths with Frederick Lenz in San Diego in 1977-8.  At the
time, he called himself Atmananda and identified himself as a student
of Sri Chinmoy.  He was teaching a four-part intro to meditation on the
University of California campus.
 
At the time, I was serving as a TA in an UG Psych course called
Altered States of Consciousness.  One of the students in the class
made an announcement about this meditation class and my brother and
I went to see what it was all about.

The class was my first exposure to meditation techniques and I remember
very clearly many of the suggestions and exercises that were recommended.
I also remember that Atmananda spoke out strongly and vehemently against
anyone who would presume to request or receive monetary compensation for
disseminating information which should be free to all humans.
 
Thnext time I heard of Lenz, he had become Rama, a curly-headed
speaker with a most impressive past-life resume, as proclaimed from
a slick poster pasted up and down Haight street in San Francisco about
1986.
 
Seems to be getting around.  I for one honor the service he provided
me in handing me some tools that have withstood the test of time and
still come in handy in my inner work.


-- 
lawder@ohsu.EDU (Kathryn Lawder)
From: jody@athena.mit.edu (Jody C Miller)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: a question for buddhists...
Date: 16 Oct 92 01:43:35 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.44225
Distribution: world
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology

In article <43952@ogicse.ogi.edu>, cup.portal.com!Tagi%portal@uunet.UU.NET writes:
|> 9210.11 e.v.  HAPPY CROWLEYMAS! (perhaps a wee early)
|> 
|> Some interesting ideas surround the nature of the ego. Bill Carter posts here
|> regarding it and quotes another while doing so, I respond to both.
|> 
|> 
|> WALSHA writes:
|> >
|> >I was reading Conze's commentary on the heart sutra last night and
|> >when i got to the part where he says: "there is no ego,
|> >there is no lasting person other than that generated by the 
|> >interplay of the 5 skandhas," I wondered how buddhists reconcile 
|> >this with the idea of reincarnation.
|> >
|> 
|> 
|> Response (Thyagi):
|> 
|> My understanding, after asking a Buddhist monk or two, is that what is
|> reincarnated is not other than the buddha-nature....
|> 
|> ...  To me it sounds more like we are spoonfuls of broth which
|> arise (by our own and/or some transcendant entity's volition) and
|> consider themselves and then are plunged back into the whole,
|> integrated and conserved. Were we a spoonful?  What is a spoonful?
|> 

It is my (albiet unenlightened and rational) understanding that the "spoon"
(keeping with your analogy) that seems to seperate the "individual" from the
whole is one's karma.  This is basically what is carried over from one life to
the next, and what must be removed for the cycle of birth/death/rebirth to slow
to a halt.  I recall this from a class I took last year from Professor Mitchel
at Purdue, so it may not be entirely accurate, but it seemed to be a logical
way to tie the concepts together.  

Jody
From: dkarma@pro-nbs.acme.fred.org (Druta Karma)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Chanting
Date: 13 Oct 92 19:37:56 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.44083
Distribution: world
Organization: Pro-nbs.acme.fred.org -- San Diego, Ca (619) 571-0152

In <1b1o3oINNad5@sandman.caltech.edu>
emiddlec@mora.gac.edu (Eric Middlecamp) writes:

>There is a third school called Obaku, I believe.
>It holds that chanting the nimbutsu will "save" a
>person. When they die, they go to Nirvana..
>
>Nothing more is recquired but this act of faith.
>I think it's sad. It's not what Buddha asked people
>to do. It's not what Christ asked people to do. It's
>just an easy way out. On the other hand, spiritual
>capacity varies. Rather, stubborness varies.
>


I think this could be the beginning of an interesting discussion about the
merits of chanting as opposed to whatever. First of all, are there any
nimbutsu experts out there who could comment on the idea that Buddha never
asked people to chant. That may be true. But I just don't know. I imagine,
however, that followers of that path might have a different opinion. But as I
said, I don't know and would like to hear. Same thing for Christ. Over the
centuries, many Christ followers have gotten into meditation on the names of
God. And in other paths there is something similar. I myself am a follower of
the bhakti-yoga system, and in this system, and in the Vedic system in
general, there is a lot of stress placed upon chanting mantras composed of
names of God. For example, I chant the Hare Krishna mantra (Hare Krishna, Hare
Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare, Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare
Hare) on meditation beads for about two hours daily as part of my meditation
vows. It is my primary spiritual practice. And I can tell you that it is not
easy. The basic principle is that Krishna is spiritually present in His name.
Hare is an address to Radha, the personified energy of devotion to Krishna
(female in form), Krishna is Krishna, of course, and Rama is another name of
Krishna meaning "spiritual enjoyment." Without getting into the whole
philosophy behind the chanting, I can just briefly say that the atma, or
conscious self, is naturally conscious of God, but has forgotten this original
object of love and devotion. Therefore the soul is now entangled in thinking
of getting enjoyment through the material senses with material sense objects.
Refocusing the mind on Krishna can deliver the soul from this entanglement. It
is not so easy, because the mind is accustomed for millions of lifetimes to
meditating on objects of material sense enjoyment and also on plans for
obtaining these objects in the form of sex, money, position, power, prestige,
etc. So focusing the mind on the mantra can be quite a difficult task, and it
requires lots and lots of spiritual work.  If you actually get into it, then
you also find there are various obstacles that have to be overcome. So it
really isn't so easy as you make it sound. But in another sense it is easy in
that one can rather quickly make some progress if one is serious. And even a
child can do it. 

Druta Karma
----
ProLine:  dkarma@pro-nbs
Internet: dkarma@pro-nbs.acme.fred.org