HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: fstawit@icomp01.lerc.nasa.gov (Tawit Chitsomboon)
Subject: Re: On death
Organization: Institute for Computational Mechanics in Propulsion
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 15:31:47 GMT


Hi,

I would like to join in the discussion about death.

We all fear death. Some of us don't because we either are ignorant
or believe about all those nice attributes about our
future lives (Of course, most of us think we'll be reborn
better than our present lives because of all the good karmas we
have collected in this lives, that includes being religious.)

Suffering is real; it's here and now. We should not be overly
obsessed with future lives and all those. True or false, future
lives have little to do with quenching the present sufferings.
Death gets nearer and nearer as moments pass. Let's not waste
these precious moments concerning about future lives but use
them wisely to reflect upon all the dhammas so that at a
particular moment, maybe, we can really transcend death.

Buddhadasa said that we should be very attentive all the time.
Even if one was hit by a speeding truck, if there is a fraction
of a second left, one would still be able to get enlightenment since
the mind at the moment of death is highly concentrated; it can
be used to advantage if one only know how. It's like one is falling
from a ladder; might as well act like a conscious jumping.
One should concentrate the mind onto 'Anatta' alone at the moment of
death, i.e., want nothing other than 'nothing'. (not to be attached
to nothingness, though)

Buddhadasa had said two 'zen-like' phrases about death:

- Be dead before you die, and you'll never die.
- You weren't born in the first place, How could you die?

He also said that: We should be concentrating in doing good dhammas
for the present moment. If future lives did not exist, then we had done
good in this lives for our own good and for others . If future
lives existed, then we sure would be reborn better.
 
Marannussati is sometime practiced to extreme in the forest tradition
(Marananussati -> mindfulness of death)
of monks in Thailand. They would seek out corpses in cemetaries
(in rural area in the past, corpses were sometimes left unattended
for days in cemetaries), the more decomposed the better. They would
contemplate on the decomposed body and the associated foul smell.
At night, the one who was most fearful of ghost would be asked
to stay alone with the corpse all night.
I envy those who are working with terminally ill people and/or corpses
in hospitals; they can practice marananussati all the time.

In Visudhimagga (a commentary of the Pali Canon ), Asupa-Kammathan
(mindfulness of corpse) is so vividly detailed. The idea is to
make the meditator aware of the fraility of life. Asupa Kammathan
is also said to be the best counter-dosage of sexual lust.

-Tawit Chitsomboon [fstawit@icomp01.lerc.nasa.gov]

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Practice the Middle Way doctrine to its extreme!
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: bhattach@dip.eecs.umich.edu (sayan bhattacharyya)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: On death
Date: 3 Sep 92 14:31:29 GMT
Article-I.D.: qiclab.1992Sep4.054259.1182
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor, MI

In article <1992Sep3.083413.21810@qiclab.scn.rain.com> radams@cerritos.edu writes:
>
>There seems to be quite a tradition in the east of doing spiritual practices
>in cemeteries. Many yogis in India will go to cemeteries late at night 
>to meditate and other spiritual practices because it is unlikely that many 
>people would come to disturb them .

[...]

I assume that by 'cemeteries' you mean the 'burning ghats' , i.e. the place
for burning corpses on wooden pyres, as is Hindu custom.

--
bhattach@dip.eecs.umich.edu (sayan bhattacharyya)
From: mcfarlan@corona.math.washington.edu (Thomas J. McFarlane)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Knowing.  (was: about Death)
Date: 29 Aug 92 21:43:43 GMT
Article-I.D.: cco.1992Aug29.214343.29665
Organization: ----
Originator: toshi@sandman

farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Lorenzo Farris) writes:
>Any mystical experience I may have, while I
>operate with the model that I am touching infinity, and that my soul
>cannot die, it may be nothing more than a fortuitous explosion of
>neuropeptides.  I just don't know.  Like I can't KNOW anything,
>really.

This is an interesting claim, especially in light of the fact that
it asserts a form of KNOWing, namely, that we can't KNOW anything.
We come face-to-face here with the paradoxes of talking about ultimate
truth, metaphysical knowledge, etc.  It is just as incoherent and
nonsensical to claim that we do not have the ability to KNOW as it
is to say that we do KNOW such-and-such about reality.  Both extremes
run into trouble.

Tom McFarlane
From: cmgrawbu@eos.ncsu.edu (CHRISTOPHER M GRAWBURG)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Vaisnava/devotee????
Date: 4 Sep 92 02:32:29 GMT
Article-I.D.: qiclab.1992Sep4.055101.1903
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos

I would like for you to please give me the meaning of the following passage
from Nectar of Instruction page 61. The reason that I'm asking this is not to
get anything going about what is being said, but for the information of a
friend of mine who has a different opinion of what it means. Anyway, here
goes.


  No one should criticize the bodily defects of a pure devotee. If there are
such defects, they should be overlooked. What should be taken into account is
the spiritual master's main business, which is devotional service, pure
service to the Supreme Lord.


Also from page 63...

   If we consider the bodily defects of a Vaisnava, we should understand that
we are commiting an offense at the loyus feet of the Vaisnava. An offence at
the lotus feet of a Vaisnava is very serious. Indeed, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu
has described this offence as 'hati-mata,' the mad elephant offense. A mad
elephant can create a disaster, especially when it enters into a nicely
trimmed garden. One should therefore be carful not to commit any offence
against a Vaisnava... (top of page 67)...One should therefore avoid observing
a pure devotee externally, but should try to see the internal features and
understand how he is engaged in the transcendental loving service of the Lord.

Plese give me the specific definition of "Vaisnava" and "pure devotee"
Is any devotee automatically a Vaisnava???


Thanx a lot!

--
cmgrawbu@eos.ncsu.edu (CHRISTOPHER M GRAWBURG)
From: bguest9@bsg9.Corp.Sun.COM (Kristian Skrinak)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Buddha's "No Soul" theory.
Date: 4 Sep 92 02:10:11 GMT
Article-I.D.: qiclab.1992Sep4.054922.1782
Organization: Sun Microsystems

In article 19000@qiclab.scn.rain.com, eradm@wbst845e.xerox.com (Erik Radmall) writes:
>I am wondering a lot about the "No Soul" theory in Buddhism. 

My understanding of the "No Soul" theory is that there is no permanent
aspect of the self. To have a soul is to possess a soul. Who or what
would "possess" it? There is no inherent existence. All existence is
dependant on other factors, so, if you exist then you are dependant on
those causal factors. Your conception of a soul is dependant on them,
and your thought that you could own this conception is as well.

It is important to consider the time frame. For example, ordinary
people often talk of the day or week as having significant irreversable
events. As spiritual seekers, we must expand our time frame not only to
include the past weeks or months, but beyond this incarnation, beyond
recorded history, to approach infinity.

With this time frame it is easier to see that you can not have an
inherent existance. There is no you. Therefore _you_ can own nothing,
including a soul.

>I can accept almost all other Buddhist tenets except that one. Maybe I
>just don't understand it clearly enough. If existence is composed of
>the "5 aggregates" and is a "dependent arising", then why the need to
>experience Nirvana?

There is no need to experience Nirvana. There is a longing that grows
stronger with each incarnation in this world. When this longing gets
strong enough, you'll want to move on, then you'll seek Nirvana.

>If Nirvana is the cessation of all sensation - even though Buddha said
>it is not a nihilistic thing, I just don't see how it could be other
>than that.  It would seem to be senseless to annihialate your own
>consciousness for some undefined end.

I think the concept generally expressed is that Nirvana is not
expressable in words. Just as a fish can jump above the surface to see
what we on land are doing, we can rise above our limited perceptions to
a greater consciousness. But we can not describe it.

The higher planes of consciousness are not in the sensoral realm, in
the sense that we do not use sight, smell etc, there is a cessation of
all sensation.


>Personally, I don't see what I stand to gain by "entering the Stream".
>If anyone has opinions on this, please share them, this is a real bone
>in my throat.

The Stream? Your soaking in it! 

You are already in it. That's one of the big discoveries. We are all
eternal. It's more of an eternal adventure. You may just be dicovering
that you are on it.

--
bguest9@bsg9.Corp.Sun.COM (Kristian Skrinak)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: tt@wag.caltech.edu (Toshi Takeuchi)
Subject: Sorry for tremendous delays!
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena, CA
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 18:47:25 GMT

The computers have been recently upgraded here at Caltech, but the
news system for my posting has been changed, causing an inability
to post articles to the net for the readers.

I am currently trying to work around the problems.

Please forgive the delay.

Toshi
tt@wag.caltech.edu
From: radams@cerritos.edu
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: On death
Date: 2 Sep 92 00:51:42 GMT
Article-I.D.: qiclab.1992Sep3.083413.21810
Organization: Cerritos College, Norwalk CA

In article <1992Sep1.011145.10726@qiclab.scn.rain.com>, 
fstawit@icomp01.lerc.nasa.gov (Tawit Chitsomboon) writes:

> - Be dead before you die, and you'll never die.
> - You weren't born in the first place, How could you die?

Exactly. How can something that was never born ever die?

> of monks in Thailand. They would seek out corpses in cemetaries
> (in rural area in the past, corpses were sometimes left unattended
> for days in cemetaries), the more decomposed the better. They would
> contemplate on the decomposed body and the associated foul smell.
> At night, the one who was most fearful of ghost would be asked
> to stay alone with the corpse all night.
> I envy those who are working with terminally ill people and/or corpses
> in hospitals; they can practice marananussati all the time.

There seems to be quite a tradition in the east of doing spiritual practices
in cemeteries. Many yogis in India will go to cemeteries late at night 
to meditate and other spiritual practices because it is unlikely that many 
people would come to disturb them :-) - this is naturally taking good 
advantage of most people's fear of death and especially of the fear of lurking 
around a dark cemetery in the middle of the night; and also it is conducive to 
going into the state of "conscious death" where the advanced yogi achieves a 
state in which the breath and (then) the heart come to a complete halt for 
extended periods of time. Saint Paul knew of this state when he said "I die 
daily" (according to Yogananda's interpretation of the bible). Also being in 
a cemetery might remind one of the limited stay we have on this earth and this 
fact might serve to motivate one to not waste time, as already pointed out in 
the quoted post.
 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
	Roger Adams
	radams@cerritos.edu               To those in whom love dwells,
	Cerritos College                  the whole world is one family.
	11110 Alondra Blvd                             A Hindu Proverb
        Norwalk, California 90650
	USA        		          292 Dwapara :-)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: tt@wag.caltech.edu (Toshi Takeuchi)
Subject: test3 (sorry for all the tests!)
Originator: toshi@sandman
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 19:29:19 GMT

Final test hopefully!  If this works, then the articles will be coming.
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: raj@globe1.att.com (Rajendra P Sharma)
Subject: Spirituality [What? How?]
Originator: toshi@sandman
Keywords: Matter, Senses, Intellect, Intuition, Kingdom of heaven
Organization: ----
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 02:18:20 GMT

"The new physicists have explained away Matter, but our Intellects
can follow them only theoretically. There is, however, an
intuitive faculty in man which, though generally dormant,
can follow them in a real way. Our consciousness of the solid
world depends upon the senses, which in turn are our means of
apprehending Matter."

"If we could withdraw consciousness from the senses for a time,
in a state of full awareness, we would then necessarily withdraw
it from Matter."

"And what would we find? A Vacuum?"

"We would find the spiritual world of being, so much spoken of by
great seers and sages of all times. To effect that withdrawal,
we need to suspend temporarily the action of intellect and allow
the ignored intuitive faculty to come into sway. But how many of us,
inordinately proud of intellect and its achievements as we are,
would be willing to do that?"

"Yet unless we do that we shall never fulfill the higher purpose
of our birth, never to find the true kingdom of heaven."

			[Paul Brunton in A Message from Arunachala]
					

---raj
From: mw@ki.fht-mannheim.de (Marc Wachowitz)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Enlightened Beings
Date: 2 Sep 92 07:41:14 GMT
Article-I.D.: qiclab.1992Sep3.083749.22088
Organization: Fachhochschule fuer Technik Mannheim

Robert Greenstein <island!green@uunet.UU.NET> wrote in his signature:
: What the fool cannot learn he laughs at, thinking
: that by his laughter he shows superiority instead
: of latent idiocy - M. Corelli
A fool may think of himself as being wise and laugh at everything,
but as a wise knows himself as a fool and can laugh with all.

(don't know the origin)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marc Wachowitz, mw@gandalf.ki.fht-mannheim.de, 75742@novell1.rz.fht-mannheim.de
  *  wonder everyday    *    nothing in particular    *    all is special  *
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: bguest9@bsg9.Corp.Sun.COM (Kristian Skrinak)
Subject: Re: Enlightened Beings
Originator: toshi@sandman
Organization: Sun Microsystems
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 17:40:39 GMT



Wonderful response! [not included] I appreciated all of your
observations, the real/dead, chakras and mostly the final comment about
finding a tradition.

I am kind of not happy with various eastern churches here in the
bay area. (The term church here is very loose.) My posting is more or
less looking at teachers as enitities to be sought, just like a powerful
physical place to meditate might be sought. I think I know what to do,
I just need a rock to sit on, or a tree to sit under.

I am thinking of an enlightened master as such a powerful rock or tree.

I will for now continue to think that I know what to do; that is simply
to meditate. "Meditation is everything (in religion). Everything else
is marketing!", a master once told me. 

I am not a loner, but that is more or less how I want to practice. If
I could I would find a master, sit in meditation, with no instruction,
and go home, daily. You would think I could find something like this
in Chinatown.

For that matter, I'd like to ask another question of all of you, who have
very kind:

Do you know of a master who does not teach?

Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: wong@rkna50.riken.go.jp (Wong Weng Fai)
Subject: 28 Oct 1992 - THE END
Originator: toshi@sandman
Organization: ----
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 17:37:10 GMT

[Please remember that this is not a Christian bashing newsgroup --Toshi]

Hi,

	Also on the subject of death, I would like to bring up 
something I saw on the TV news last night.

	The hottest "new religion" in South Korea now is a 
Christian cult that believe that 28 October 1992 will be the end of 
the world, i.e. Judgement Day. As such, a lot of young men and 
women are leaving their school, work and families to join in the 
"preparation" for the second coming. There was a particularly 
emotional scene where parents of the children managed to break 
into one of the preparation gathering to try to persuade their 
children to go home. The crowd started singing/screaming hymns 
at a hysterical pitch. One youth got physical with his own mother 
and try to push her out the door ! It must have broke her heart to 
pieces ... sigh ! Emotions and faith was really high. 

	Bash me if you want but it seems quite clear to me that this 
sort of "unshakeable faith" is wrong !

		"Parents are the greatest Brahma !" - Buddha

	May peace be with these heart-broken parents and these 
"lost" children.

W.F. Wong.

PS : Also shown on TV this morning was a video taping of a speech given
     by Rev. Moon of the World Unification Church at a dinner party
     (sometime a night or two ago I think). He finally made it explicitly
     clear in an emotional proclaimation - he is THE Messiah.
From: mapte@astral (Madhav Apte)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Nichiren and the Lotus Sutra
Date: 1 Sep 92 23:07:50 GMT
Article-I.D.: qiclab.1992Sep3.083326.21717
Organization: U S WEST Information Technologies

[Hello!  I have net access once again, via mapte@advtech.uswest.com]

I did not read Ms. Wilde's original article, but I read Bill's
and Wong's reply, followed by Tagi's reply.  I am replying now
without following the thread completely through [because I might
lose my train of thought].  If this offends anyone, my apologies.

I agreed with Bill's and Wong's positions, and even Tagi's (mostly).
However, some remarks about Tagi's reply:

Tagi seems to feel that Wong criticized Ms. Wilde, but I didn't
feel that from reading Wong's reply.  Wong was simply making his
own case, just as Wilde was making hers.  Speaking of feelings, Tagi
says that adherence to certain principles can be rooted in feelings
rather than reason.  While this may work for some [and I have 
absolutely NOTHING against such persons], I wonder whether 
adherence based on emotions can stand the test of time and
experience (of life, that is).  An emotional adherence, or one
based on faith for faith's sake, can be shaken.  On the other
hand, an adherence based on questioning and (presumably) practice
would be harder to shake, yet at the same time be open to change
or evolution [due to further questioning].  Would an emotion-or-faith-
based adherence be open to this? 

Cheers,
Madhav Apte
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
From: jdavis@netlink.cts.com (James Davis)
Subject: Question on Tagi's Thought
Organization: NetLink Online Communications, San Diego CA
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 22:55:05 GMT

Tagi:

>'Souls' and 'future lives'... are no more truths than 'void'
>and 'ends'.

I can't tell whether you're saying that, for you, these
words/concepts are meaningless or meaningful, or somewhere in
between.

If I assume that your communicating and not just zening, then I'm
left to wonder if your are saying:

The truth/untruth(?) pointed to by your word "souls" is equal to
or less than the truth/untruth(?) pointed to by your word
"void?."

The truth/untruth (?) pointed to by "future lives" is equal to or
less than the truth/untruth pointed to by your word "ends?."

Could you share with us what you really think?  Perhaps a few
definitions or examples of what you mean?

--                    
INTERNET:  jdavis@netlink.cts.com (James Davis)
UUCP:   ...!ryptyde!netlink!jdavis
NetLink Online Communications * Public Access in San Diego, CA (619) 453-1115
From: pjm@cshl.org (Pat Monardo)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: On death
Date: 1 Sep 92 03:37:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: qiclab.1992Sep1.215715.18222
Organization: Cold Spring Harbor Labs

In article <1992Sep1.011145.10726@qiclab.scn.rain.com> fstawit@icomp01.lerc.nasa.gov (Tawit Chitsomboon) writes:
>
>Hi,
>
>I would like to join in the discussion about death.
>

I will share my thoughts on death, but this is from the perspective
of my karma and you should probably try to avoid these types of
experiences. I suffered a drug overdose at an Eric Clapton
concert many years ago. At the point of near-death a couple things
become obvious: one is no longer a human being and one's awareness
is no longer dominated by human skandhas. all of the human beings
in my environment became monsters who spoke semi-english, mostly
curses and hostile utterances. as my consciousness became more
and more removed from the normal human perspective, a Divine
Lady appeared to me and asked if i wanted to experience eternity.
i answered YES but not in a voice, it was more of an affirmative
vibration of my entire existence (whatever that was). At that
i point travelled (inwardly, of course) past the reality limit to
the fields of bliss. however, since i was young and still clinged
to existence and couldnt handle non-existence, i fell from that plane
and resumed my human life.  So the key is:

1. dont cling to life.
2. dont cling to bad images as one dies.
3. look for Tara if in "trouble"

This Woman may be the Kundalini Goddess or something like that,
i am not quite certain, but currently i interpret it to be Tara.
I wouldnt interpret it as a Western image (such as Madonna)
because She was too trippy and beautiful.

P.S. Dont worry excessively about falling to lower realms,
there are Beings who can save you from that, just
be prepared to find them.

P.P.S Also i now view this as the Highest Existence, and the only
mystery to explore is how to deal with complete/final Non Duality.

-- 
-- Pat Monardo
-- pjm@cshl.org
From: tt@wag.caltech.edu (Toshi Takeuchi)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: simple breathing exercise
Date: 3 Sep 92 19:17:02 GMT
Article-I.D.: qiclab.1992Sep4.054630.1501
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena, CA

I recently spoke about hay fever and stuffy noses disappearing upon
doing meditations/breathing exercises.

I posted a similar article some months ago, but it's short so I'm sure
you'll forgive me :)

The breathing exercise is a form of pranayama, although I don't know
the name of this particular exercise.

------

The exercise is simple and takes about 5 minutes or less.

Part one:

Fast breathing:  

Put the forefinger to the side of one nostril and the thumb on the side of
the other nostril.

Close off one nostril and breath out quickly using the diaphragm (not the
chest) and allow the air to reenter the lungs.  (All the effort is placed
in expelling the air, then the air will easily reenter the lungs without
effort...)

Close off the other nostril (reopening the other nostril) and breath
out quickly and allow the air to reenter the lungs.

---The idea is to take quick breaths and alternate the nostrils quickly.

Do this for one minute (or less)

Part two:

Deep breathing:

Repeat the fast breathing, but expel air slowly, and allow the air to
fill up the lungs slowly.  (make sure you breath out using the 
diaphragm (the stomach), not the chest)

Do the slow breathing for 3 or 4 minutes.  Remember, do not make effort
in the intake of breath.

-----------------------

To practice breathing with the diaphragm, place your hand over your stomach,
and make sure you stomach rises and falls as you breath.

It is very hard to start to do, but it increases the lung capacity 
tremendously.

----------

I do the breathing exercise before meditation, and once before I go to
sleep.  I find the slow breathing is an excellent way to get into the
meditation.

------------

There were vast improvements in my breathing (stuffy noses, hay fever...)
in four months or so.  I can't promise the same thing for you, but
for 5-10 minutes a day, it's could be a good thing...

Good luck,

Toshi
tt@wag.caltech.edu