HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: foax@vax5.cit.cornell.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re:  PC's are *total* kludges
Date: 24 Jul 92 22:04:56 EDT
Distribution: comp
Organization: Cornell University

In article <1992Jul19.033834.13823@vax5.cit.cornell.edu>
foax@vax5.cit.cornell.edu writes:
> In article <1992Jul17.232938.10195@gbrmpa.gov.au>,
> matt@gbrmpa.gov.au (Matt) writes: 
> > In article <mykes.09ay@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG> mykes@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Schwartz) writes:
> >>
> >>When I dragged a window (this was in 16 _gasp_ color mode) I was annoyed 
> >>by being forced to watch the window graphics take a second to be erased 
> >>where it used to be.
> > 
> > If you're going to make blatently pathetic statements like this one you'll
> > never get anywhere with your argument.
> 
> I wouldn't call his statement "pathetic", although some people might
> get annoyed by the "_gasp_".  (I wouldn't.)  He's saying his machine
> (I believe a 25 MHz 386 with 2 Mb RAM and an ordinary VGA) took about
> a second to erase a window.  That is pretty pathetic performance, but
> considering how much stress Windows puts on a system, and that his
> machine is short on memory and has only a dumb framebuffer to do
> graphics, it's not too surprising.  He has no reason to lie.
> 
> What his statement really says is that the days of CPU-managed
> graphics should be numbered.  There are better solutions available.

Actually I had forgotten that his machine was trying to do several
tasks, one of which was very CPU-intensive (I think it was some kind
of download or network transfer) while doing this.  Since Windows is
very poor at this sort of multitasking (which is why IBM and Microsoft
are fighting over its replacement), his statement is understandable.
It would not be if the system were not otherwise preoccupied; I tried
out Windows on some 386SX and 486 systems at Sears (ordinary looking
Packard Bell systems; I rather doubt that they had Windows accelerator
boards) and the window redraw time seemed nice and quick on all of
them in 16-color VGA.  Indeed, it seemed quicker than on my Amiga
3000; I suspect that the custom chips are turning from accelerators
into bottlenecks because they can't easily be sped up.  (Not that the
8 MHz 16-bit ISA bus isn't itself a bottleneck, but that's another
story...)
-- 

--Colin Howell			email to howell@astrosun.tn.cornell.edu
--Cornell Astronomy Dept.	(hopefully switching to computer science)
From: root@rkamiga.UUCP (Rick Kelly)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re:  I am giving up on the Amiga
Distribution: world
Date: 25 Jul 92 09:32:56 EST
Organization: Rick's Amiga

In article <62681@cup.portal.com> TomK@cup.portal.com (Tom R Krotchko) writes:
>Before you throw rocks at Dell, keep in mind they spend about
>3% on This from an interview with Michael Dell in a 
>recent Upside magazine.
>
>I thought I'd read CBM spends 2.2% on R&D.
>
>Its definitely volume that keeps the price of these things low.
>
>And... never mind. I could write a book on the whole thing...

Yup.  Dell designs their own motherboards.  On a Dell PC running Dell UNIX,
pushing the reset button will cause an orderly UNIX shutdown.  Some models
also have an LCD display on the front of the box that displays POST codes
and the run level of the OS.

--
Rick Kelly		Rick's Amiga		Framingham, Mass.

		think!unixland!rmkhome!rkamiga!root

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block)
Subject: Re: I DID giev up on the Amiga!
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 06:04:13 GMT

skip@cs.olemiss.edu (Skip Sauls) writes:
: Maybe ReadySoft will come out with a kit for the A600 that includes the
: AMax emulator, LCD screen, trackball, and battery pack.  They could call
: it the PBMax just like the candy bar.  :-)

Now THAT I'd buy.  ;)

--
(: (: (: (: Have you overdosed on smileys today?  Why NOT!?! :) :) :) :) :)
(:"The person who said size doesn't matter was probably a very small man":)
(:	gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu			Gregory R. Block         :)
(: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
From: root@rkamiga.UUCP (Rick Kelly)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re:    PC's are *total* kludges
Distribution: world
Date: 21 Jul 92 09:13:40 EST
Organization: Rick's Amiga

In article <1992Jul20.153133.3340@ctr.columbia.edu> jerry@connection.prospect.com (Jerry Shekhel) writes:
>In article <root.0243@rkamiga.UUCP> root@rkamiga.UUCP (Rick Kelly) writes:
>>>
>>>Where did you get this idea?  Alternative OS's run just fine on PC's.
>>>MS-DOS is built to run on PC's, not vica verca.
>>
>>There are some motherboards out there that will not run in protected mode.
>>
>
>Yep, those based on the 8088 or equivalent (NEC V20, etc).  Anything with a
>286 or above can run in protected mode (it's a function of the CPU, not the
>motherboard).
>
>>
>>There seems to be less of them now than there used to be, but they do exist.
>>
>
>Reality check: nobody can sell anything these days that doesn't run Windows.
>Windows runs in protected mode.

Believe it or not, a company that I am involved with bought five Taiwanese
motherboards about six months ago.  These particular motherboards would not
run UNIX, Windows, or OS/2.  They did, however, run quite well with MSDOS
and passed all the tests on an MSDOS diagnostic disk.  They were 386/33.

Obviously, they got their money back.  It boggles the mind that anyone would
attempt to sell a product with a broken design.  And somewhere out there,
some fool who manufactures computers in the back of his truck is probably
using that brand of motherboard.

--
Rick Kelly		Rick's Amiga		Framingham, Mass.

		think!unixland!rmkhome!rkamiga!root

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: gerald@seas.gwu.edu (Gerald G. Washington)
Subject: Re:   PC's vs. mortals
Organization: George Washington University
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 19:53:25 GMT

>philip@utstat.uucp (Philip McDunnough) writes:
>>Who cares about games. These won't be colour systems, and anyway games will
>>move off computer platforms within 2 years.

?????

Hmmmm.....

-- Gerald
From: foax@vax5.cit.cornell.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Obituary [Amiga's] in Silicon Valley newspaper
Date: 31 Jul 92 00:31:46 EDT
Distribution: comp
Organization: Cornell University

In article <62872@cup.portal.com>,
thad@cup.portal.com (Thad P Floryan) writes: 
> 
> Same thing with a Sun-3/60, which is "sort of like" an Amiga 2500 or 3000 (per
> 20MHz 68020/68881).  With Sun's OpenWindows, that machine crawled and many
> of the window-based apps suffer intense Sun brain-damage in re keyboard char
> mapping and use of various shell.  Again: "rm" all the OpenWindows and NeWS
> stuff, bring up X11R5, and now the machines are N-I-C-E.  And, fortunately,
> some of the "nice" OpenWindows apps (such as calendar manager, calculator,
> etc.) are upward compatible with X11R5 and continue to function with SunOS
> 4.1.1.

I don't think Sun ever intended OpenWindows to be really usable on Sun-3's,
as they have long since stopped selling them and are now abandoning support.
They want to sell Sparcstations, and it's only on Sparcstations that
Openwindows is usable.  Even on Sparc 1's the startup period is annoying,
but then again, our Suns usually don't have the X/NeWS-server running all the
time, as some people still like to use Sunview.  That means the server must
start up each time you enter OpenWindows.

You may be right that there are inefficiencies in OpenWindows though.  From
what you said, switching to X11R5 could be nice.  I also wonder how useful
the Display Postcript server is or how much it slows the system down;
considering that Postscript is both interpreted and space-hungry, it
strikes me as a poor system for doing on-the-fly workstation graphics.

If I'm making bad assumptions about OpenWindows' workings here, somebody
please correct me.
-- 

--Colin Howell			email to howell@astrosun.tn.cornell.edu
--Cornell Astronomy Dept.	(hopefully switching to computer science)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: dtiberio@libws2.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio)
Subject: Re: Perot ?
Organization: State University of New York at Stony Brook
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 19:56:01 GMT

In article <62736@cup.portal.com> TomK@cup.portal.com (Tom R Krotchko) writes:
>Twenty years from now, perhaps history won't have kind things to
>say about Reagan.
>
>But Carter? No one could afford a house, inflation was out of control,
>helecopters were crashing in the desert, the US intelligence community
>was gutted.

	I was shocked when I recently heard about low-income housing priced
as low as $70,000. Who the hell can afford that? I am heavy into architecture
and construction and know that these prices are unrealistic for low-income 
housing.
	As for the helicoptors crashing in the desert after Carter threatened
t bomb Tehren, isn't it ever so much obvious that Bush and Reagan stole the
presidency? Bush was head of the CIA. Reagan was receiving electoral votes
as early as 1972 even when he didn't run. Immediately following their
election in 1980, a war was started between Iraq and Iran, with both sides
being funded by the US. Making money. 
	And as for rising gas prices, that was probably also an attempt to 
control the oil industry that was destroyed in Texas by self-serving rich
beuarocrats.

>"there's a malaise in this country".
>
>Yep, and he was voted out of office.

	Wrong...voted into office most recently.

>Don't get me wrong. J. Carter strikes me as a genuinely nice person.
>I'd love to have him as my next door neighbor. But I don't necessarily
>want my next door neighbor to be president. He clearly wasn't up to
>the job.

	Of course we always have to put war and money in front of peace
and stability.


-- 
      //   David Tiberio  SUNY Stony Brook 516-473-5156 AMIGA  DDD-MEN   
     //  bounce-resistant:    dtiberio%libserv1.ic.sunysb.edu@sunysb.edu
   \X/	    Perot for President 1-516-399-2259 Long Island, New York

 	PPPP  EEEEE RRRR   OOO  TTTTT    IIIII N   N      999   6666
	P   P E     R   R O   O   T        I   NN  N     9   9 6
	PPPP  EEEE  RRRR  O   O   T        I   N N N      9999 6666
 	P     E     R R   O   O   T        I   N  NN         9 6   6
 	P     EEEEE R  R   OOO    T      IIIII N   N     9999   666
From: lindblad@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Jarkko Lindblad)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Well, Jerry Pournell says that there is a new amiga
Date: 26 Jul 92 10:45:15 GMT
Distribution: comp
Organization: University of Helsinki

Michael.Witbrock@cs.cmu.edu writes:
: Jerry Pournelle says (in this BYTE [no, I didn't buy it, I looked at it
: in a bookstore]) that there is a new amiga, and that he will tell us all
: about it in the next issue of BYTE [which I will buy], so.....

If Jerry Pournelle tells us about a new Amiga, he will probably tell
about A600.... (or about A3000 :-)

--
Jarkko Lindblad
lindblad@cc.helsinki.fi
From: simon@ivem.uucp (Simon Lee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Anybody care to crush this Falcon Rumor?
Date: 29 Jul 1992 00:14:51 GMT
Organization: University of California, San Diego
NNTP-Posting-Host: ivem.ucsd.edu

In article <YeNi1gK00awJ0EN19d@andrew.cmu.edu> "Chad O. Yoshikawa" <cy0q+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>I hope Commodore has something up their sleeve...
>
> Chad.

As the all-knowing guru Bullwinkle once said...
"Nothing up my sleeves, PRESTO!"  (A600)
"Oops.  Must have got the wrong hat."  :)

-Simon

-- 
*   Simon Lee              *   Microscopy and Imaging Resource          *
*   simon@ivem.ucsd.edu    *   Intermediate Voltage Electron Microscopy *
*   sulee@ucsd.edu         *   UC San Diego, Dept. of Neuroscience      *
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mykes@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Schwartz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: I am giving up on the Amiga
Date: 28 Jul 92 04:19:31 GMT
Organization: Amiga makes it possible
X-NewsSoftware: GRn 1.16e (7/4/92) by Mike Schwartz & Michael B. Smith

In article <torrie.712219578@Xenon.Stanford.EDU> torrie@cs.stanford.edu (Evan Torrie) writes:
> TomK@cup.portal.com (Tom R Krotchko) writes:
>
> >Before you throw rocks at Dell, keep in mind they spend about
> >3% on This from an interview with Michael Dell in a
> >recent Upside magazine.
>
>   3% is still miniscule compared with companies like Apple,
> IBM, Sun (i.e. companies who are really innovative) who
> spend at least 8% on R&D.
>

3% is enough for Dell to make 4 oustanding computer systems.
Better than the Amiga 3000, and better than the quadra.

> >I thought I'd read CBM spends 2.2% on R&D.
>
>   For which you should throw rocks at CBM.

CBM sucks.  Dave Haynie is GOD!  (this is an inside joke for IRCers out there :)

Frankly, Evan, I was just at CompUSA a couple of days ago, and I do not see
why anyone would buy a Macintosh anymore.  THe PC's on display there were
quite impressive and there is just so much more software and hardware options
for the PCs.  I asked a salesman, and he said that the Mac is still great for
people who are afraid of computers and benefit from the Mac's ease of setup.
That's the ONLY explaination that makes any sense to me at all...

>
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Evan Torrie.  Stanford University, Class of 199?       torrie@cs.stanford.edu
> Embrace rationalism, reject superstition.           Break away from the past.

--
Amiga programmer of: GRn, MailMinder, Budokan, Beyond Dark Castle, Dark Castle
Sega Genesis programmer of: Dick Tracy and Marble Madness.
Mike Schwartz  (ames!zorch!amiga0!mykes or mykes@amiga0.sf-bay.org)
1124 Fremont Ave.
Los Altos, CA 94024
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N Barrett)
Subject: Re: VM is obsolete Hee Hee Hee!
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 14:17:50 GMT

In article <1992Jul27.041038.1507@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> jrm3a@cyclops.micr.Virginia.EDU (Jonathan Moll) writes:
>Why oh Why does VM keep coming up like some holy grail?  Good God, it
>was originally a hack to overcome the high cost of primary memory
>vs secondary storage.  I take exception to Marc Barrett's statement
>of "Hard drive's are cheaper than RAM and will ALWAYS be so".
>
>  Lesse, 4Meg = $130  for RAM so we want say, 20 Meg = $650
>  Hmm 50 Meg SCSI drive goes for $350 (average cost).
>
>We are only looking at a factor of 4.5 $/Meg in 1992 Mr. Barrett.
>Look at the market since 1975 Hmmm?  Semiconductor densities
>have been increasing more rapidly than ElectroMechanical subsystems.
>Forget VM guys and gals it's days are numbered (in octal)! 

   People have been predicting the demise of main memeory as we know it
ever since the first rumors of bubble memories reached the computer
industry.  If I said that hard drive's will ALWAYS be cheaper than RAM,
this might have been an exageration, because such developments as 
holographic optical memories have a chance of turning the system on its
side.  But I do think that it will be a LONG time before anything like
holographic memories will become available.  At least several of the
world's largest computer memory manufacturers seem to agree with me, as
the 256Mbit memories that IBM, Sharp and a German firm (I forget the name)
are collaborating on use standard memory techniques, pushed to their
limits.

>P.S. Dear TKKC, "VM is obsolete OS technology, Nahh Nahh Phpptt!"
>P.P.S.  I do like memory protection (pie in face, panic, machine halts
>        with a "memory protection" error) Hee Hee Hee. :)  (Yes kiddies
>        I DO KNOW that it doesn't have to halt, just give me an exception
>        and call systems in the morning)

   Besides, if VM is obsolte, then why are so many Amigaoids making such 
a bit deal about it possibly finally becoming available through an 
unsupported third-party hack?

---
| Marc Barrett -MB-  |  email: barrett@iastate.edu
-----------------------------------------------------
From: TomK@cup.portal.com (Tom R Krotchko)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Commodore and the Osborne Syndrome
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 22:12:33 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
  <50888@dime.cs.umass.edu>

I think most people realize CBM can't announce a specific product,
but it would be nice to announce a direction; heck, they're allowed
to change that direction as appropriate, they're allowed to go in
a different direction, but the current state of affairs leads one
to the uncomfortable conclusion there *is* no direction for the
Amiga line.

Note, "direction" doesn't mean "Gee, desktop video looks like a 
good market". "Direction" is more like "our niche is desktop
video. Towards that end, we will be releasing hardware and 
software standards that will buttress that direction. We will
be building machines that encompass the range from high end to
mid range, blah blah...".

Most people who follow this industry can tell you where they think
IBM, Apple, Microsoft, and others are going in this industry (they
may not be right, but hey). Can someone tell me even a vague
direction where the Amiga is headed?

Is it going towards games? Is the high end dead? Is a new push to be
put on for video? I think having a direction is lot more important than
a specific product.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: leavitt@cheshire.oxy.edu (Thomas VanNess Leavitt)
Subject: Re: Marc Barrett is irrelevant.  Atari Falcon is REAL
Organization: Occidental College, Los Angeles, CA 90041 USA.
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 01:36:34 GMT

Hmm... since 1040STe's are selling for $299 new retail, I don't suppose
it beyond Atari's capabilities to design an '030 based machine for onluy
$500 more... especially redoing much of the stuff from the ground up, and
having the core of the OS already developed...

Think about it... with $300 Amigas, MMR could probably OEM them with
installed accelerators for that price... and how much easier would it
be to build it in?

Thom

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: dtiberio@libws2.ic.sunysb.edu (David Tiberio)
Subject: Re: Proposal: comp.sys.amiga.barrett
Organization: State University of New York at Stony Brook
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 18:47:19 GMT

In article <1992Jul27.031403.15883@regina.cs.uregina.ca> gorrie@hercules.uregina.ca (Dennis Gorrie) writes:
>In article <50619@dime.cs.umass.edu> barrett@gleep.cs.umass.edu (Daniel Barrett) writes:
>>
>>	Now, if you wanted to form a comp.sys.amiga.BLAZEMONGER newsgroup, I
>>might be interested. :-)
>>
>>                                                        Dan
>
>So when is BLAZEMONGER III coming out?   I booted up BLAZEMONGER
>yesterday expecting the usual GAME OVER screen but instead the computer
>shut itself off.   Whats wrong?
>

	Silly child. Don't sit there waiting for any of this BLAZEMONGER III
crap to be released. It was just a joke! Don't you guys ever get it? Those
eurohackers sure do know how to write demos. :)

	I have some developer specs on BLAZEMONGER MCLXIIII. But I don't know
if they are fake or not....but they LOOK convincing!



-- 
      //   David Tiberio  SUNY Stony Brook 516-473-5156 AMIGA  DDD-MEN   
     //  bounce-resistant:    dtiberio%libserv1.ic.sunysb.edu@sunysb.edu
   \X/	    Perot for President 1-516-399-2259 Long Island, New York

 	PPPP  EEEEE RRRR   OOO  TTTTT    IIIII N   N      999   6666
	P   P E     R   R O   O   T        I   NN  N     9   9 6
	PPPP  EEEE  RRRR  O   O   T        I   N N N      9999 6666
 	P     E     R R   O   O   T        I   N  NN         9 6   6
 	P     EEEEE R  R   OOO    T      IIIII N   N     9999   666
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: mlelstv@speckled.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de (Michael van Elst)
Subject: Re: I am giving up on the Amiga
Organization: Max-Planck-Institut f"ur Radioastronomie
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 22:34:15 GMT

In <1992Jul28.174400.6298@msi.com> bill@snoopy (Bill Poitras) writes:
>Ah, but 32-bit apps on the PC is a different story.  Businesses have PCs
>not Amigas.  32-bit computing is so important now, Microsoft, the largest
>software firm in the PC World is scrambling to get 32-bit apps in the
>works.

Please tell the world what 32bit apps are compared to 16bit apps.

Regards,
-- 
Michael van Elst
UUCP:     universe!local-cluster!milky-way!sol!earth!uunet!unido!mpirbn!p554mve
Internet: p554mve@mpirbn.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de
                                "A potential Snark may lurk in every tree."
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: cpw8034@zeus.tamu.edu (ALAN CHIPIN WEN (409)693-2924)
Subject: PC World's John C. Dvorak Speaks Out...
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 22:57:00 GMT

Here's an excerpt from John Dvorak about AmigaDOS in the August issue of PC 
World...

"My earlier reluctance stemmed from my observation that the OS/2 promoters 
acted like the crackpot Amiga users who think that all mankind is crazy
because the whole world doesn't use the Amiga.  This is a different crowd
from the Mac fanatics, who are just plain arrogant.  But at least the Mac
fanatics don't whine so damn much, as the Amiga (and OS/2) users do.  It's
not particularly fun to tell these guys that they were right.  They stil
whine at you:  'Why don't other columnists say so, too?'"

Just a rather amusing article in a non Amiga magazine...   :)

Alan
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: mlelstv@speckled.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de (Michael van Elst)
Subject: Re: Amigas are cool
Organization: Max-Planck-Institut f"ur Radioastronomie
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 01:48:57 GMT

In <1992Jul27.220111.514@ctr.columbia.edu> jerry@connection.prospect.com (Jerry Shekhel) writes:
>The OS can use an LRU algorithm to figure out which pages to throw out.
>Even if your program keeps accessing *all* of the image data, in most cases
>it won't be using even close to all of the code, so the OS will be able
>to swap out some code pages.  How would application-based VM help in this
>scenario? Suppose your image is 1024x768x24 = 2304KB.  How do you know how
>much of it to keep in memory?  64KB?  256KB?  1MB?  Maybe applications should
>handle multitasking, too?  I can see it now:  MS-DOS for the Amiga.

The application knows how much and more important what parts of the image
are needed in memory. An LRU scheme tries to anticipate from recent memory
accesses. A very easy case where this fails is when you just _load_ a complete
image into memory (the vmem manager will swap everything to disk, then when
the real mem fills up while reading the machine reads in the file data and
immediately swaps out old data). In the end you will have copied the image
to swapspace and hold the end (usually the bottom part) of the image in
memory. Now your application that has successfully loaded the image starts
doing some processing, f.e. a histogram or gamma correction. Of course it
just accesses everything sequentially and again the complete image is
paged in and paged out.
The usage of VM in that case added a complete (and usually not optimized)
copy pass compared to a solution where the application worked on the file.
The LRU scheme also does a very poor job if you have a single disk, the
file access scheme will work fine with a single disk as data can be largely
modified in place.
Surely you can look for some more sophisticated schemes. SunOS f.e. will
anticipate either for random accesses (with an LRU scheme) or sequential
accesses (where it limits the resident set size so that more real memory
remains available for other tasks).

VM is _not_ a good solution for programs that need more memory than
physically available. It is _convenient_ since you can ignore the
memory usage of _idle_ programs loaded at the same time and it can
help utilizing a machine since the memory usage of a program is reduced
to its resident set size (which of course is a minor issue if the programs
are typically small and the coarse granularity of a VM system wastes
memory).

Regards,
-- 
Michael van Elst
UUCP:     universe!local-cluster!milky-way!sol!earth!uunet!unido!mpirbn!p554mve
Internet: p554mve@mpirbn.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de
                                "A potential Snark may lurk in every tree."
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy