HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sharono@bach.udel.edu (Sharon Orlowsky)
Subject: Movie
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 21:57:10 GMT

I've been following the thread about possible casting and music
for a movie with great interest (although I do think that no film
could do the work justice).

Here are my suggestions:

Eowyn:  Mary Stuart Masterson.  This seems really obvious to me.
Faramir:  Harrison Ford
I'm not sure about others, but I think Sean Connery and Daniel 
Day-Lewis should definitely get some significant roles -- both have
the "noble aura" to pull characters like Aragorn, Denethor off.  Day-
Lewis could maybe even be Elrond.  

Other actors who deserve roles:
Glenn Close (her Gertrude in Hamlet was great)
Dustin Hoffman

As far as the music goes, let's not turn it into a rock opera, people!
I agree with whoever suggested Mannheim Steamroller.  I'd like to 
see a soundtrack comparable to Peter Gabriel's Last Temptation of CHrist
or (Mickey Hart's ?) Apocalypse Now.  And what about Shadowfax :) ?
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Nihilism is bad (was Re: Thomas Covenant)
Date: 16 Dec 1992 12:51:42 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In article <1gfojtINN7eg@uwm.edu> glenne@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Neuromancer ) writes:
>Let me say that I am definitely NOT politically correct.  I know of
>one person who shares my values.   First of all, I do not believe in 
>feeling guilt for anything.  One cannot change what one has done in
>the past.  One can only choose what to do in the present.  Torturing 
>yourself for mistakes does neither yourself nor anyone else any good.

It's a great feedback mechanism to discourage you from making similar
mistakes in the future.  It also encourages you to take action to 
remedy the evil you have caused in the past.  If you have another 
mechanism to achieve the same goals, I'd love to hear it.  

>Unfortunately life is not like the wonderful stories that we read.  Life 
>is not fair.  Our attempts at making life fair fail completely in anything
>but making life more complex.  Good guys do not finish first.  Good guys 
>finish last.  And so what it all boils down to is that you have to choose
>between being good and winning.  Almost universally humanity has chosen
>the latter.  

Everyone finishes the same - in the grave.  The trick is finding how to get
there with a modicum of grace.  "It's not whether you win or lose, it's how
you play the game" makes even more sense when you, ultimately, neither
win nor lose: you only die.

Further, by being part of society (and I assume that you are a part of
society, as the Internet is supported by society), you accept a certain
responsibility (ala the social contract).  Being a good guy is part of
that responsibility.

Or, in closing, would you rather live in a world ruled by Sauron and
administered by orcs, or would you rather live in King Elessar's
reunited kingdom?  And do you feel you have no responsibility to act
to make the world one or the other?  (From your postings I have the
feeling that you answer to the second question would be "yes.")

And, finally, do you have no desire to do what you can to help the
Lords of the West triumph over the East?  Or do you just feel that you
are so insignificant that your own contribution would make no difference
in the end.

(BTW, I recommend the book _Crime_and_Punishment_ by Dostoyevsky as a
wonderful treatment of why nihilism such as yours does not work.)
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Tolkien a Racist?
Date: 16 Dec 1992 12:56:16 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In article <Bz4v2s.80K@comp.vuw.ac.nz> Michael.Norrish@comp.vuw.ac.nz (Michael Norrish) writes:
>
>The closer it is to the Valar, the better or more superior the
>race. However, as James has pointed out, those races closer to the
>divine are characterised as 'blond, blue-eyed' wonders, while the
>unfortunate Easterlings and Southrons are dark and swarthy.

Actually, only a few of the Noldor were blond.  Galadriel's blondness
is described as unusual for an elf.



Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: jdliss@unix.amherst.edu (Jeff Liss)
Subject: Re: Aragorn
Organization: Amherst College
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL7]
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 04:33:51 GMT

Um, doesn't all this aging stuff have to do with Aragorn's being one-fourth
elf?  Not sure about the details...

Jeff
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: paul@pj.tmc.edu (Thorongil)
Subject: Re: Balrogs vs. Ringwraiths ... and a questi
Organization: Mississippi State University ERC
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 15:46:35 GMT

Mike D. writes:
>Would someone care to give reference to more on Sauron's
>background.  I have heard him questionably mentioned as
>a balrog.  Wow.  If he were a balrog, then, boy, I am
>sure out of it.  I had no idea this were the case (if,
>in fact, it is).
>
>Brevity is ok, as long as there are references.  But, if
>someone wants to, feel free to bring it all into light.
>

Sauron a Balrog?  No way.  The reference is from "Valaquenta" in
the _Silmarillion_ .  

   . . . But he was not alone.  For of the Maiar many were drawn to his
   splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance
   down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his
   service with lies and treacherous gifts.  Dreadful among these spirits
   were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-Earth were called 
   the Balrogs, the demons of terror. 
         Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that 
   spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the cruel.  In the 
   beginning he was of the Maiar of Aule, . . . 
  

So he was of the same race, but a Balrog?  No way.  Tolkien would have
mentioned that if it were true.

Thorongil

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: rao@moose.cccs.umn.edu (Rao Akella)
Subject: Re: The Disclaimer
Reply-To: rao@moose.cccs.umn.edu
Organization: Colon Cancer Control Study, University of Minnesota, Minneapolis
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 02:09:33 GMT



In article <1gq62kINNs39@uwm.edu>, paulg@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Paul A Gunderson) writes:
> 
> Right you are!  Of course, the Houghton-Mifflin editions are functionally
> the same as the Ballantine editions...

Do they have better maps than the paperback editions?  Considering how
incredibly important Geography and Topography and directions are in LotR's M-E,
I find the maps in the Ballantine editions tiny and almost unreadable.  I often
find myself squinting and peering at them every few seconds just to make sure I
have a clear mental picture of what Our Heroes are doing.  JRRT of course
describes minutae down to which side of a stream or road they're walking on and
which direction they're looking in, and this becomes very wearying if you don't
have good maps to study.

-- Rao Akella    <rao@moose.cccs.umn.edu, rao%moose@umnacvx.bitnet>

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk)
Subject: Re: Aragorn: (was Re: Movie roles)
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 05:54:22 GMT

det@phlan.sw.stratus.com (David Toland) writes:
>Aragorn should be played by Sean Connery.  He has the weatherworn, craggy
>features, and is uniquely capable of carrying the regal majesty as well.
>det@phlan.sw.stratus.com

With Roger Moore as "young Aragorn, when he was out on errantries"? :)

I believe Aragorn still looked quite young during the War of the Ring,
because if he looked 60, he probably wouldn't have made the statement
"I am older than I look".  "Age=wisdom" was universally respected among the
People of the West as being true and "honorable".  My guess is that he
looked around 40 at that time so I'd have trouble picturing him as old as
Sean Connery is (and is going to be).  But undoubtedly yes, just take
around 20 years off of his appearance.

					Michael Lewchuk
					lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA
From: microsoc@oxford.ac.uk (Andrew D McMurry=)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: J.R.R. Tolkien's full name is...
Date: 12 Dec 92 12:30:12 GMT
Organization: /u3/microsoc/users/amcm/.organization
In-reply-to: rao@moose.cccs.umn.edu's message of 10 Dec 92 23:20:48 GMT

In article <1992Dec10.232048.16584@news2.cis.umn.edu> rao@moose.cccs.umn.edu (Rao Akella) writes:

   ..John Ronald Reuel Tolkien.

   I've started my third (only!) reading of LotR, and since I couldn't find
   his full name anywhere (it may be in some of his later books, but I haven't
   gone that far yet), I actually had to look it up in an encyclopaedia, so I
   thought some of you folks might be interested (come on now, 'fess up, how
   many of you knew that? :-)

Tolkien's full name is mentioned on the title page of every English language
edition of LotR that I have seen! It is in the cirth and tengwar inscription
which says something like: 'The Lord of the Rings, translated from the Red
Book of Westmarch by John Ronald Reuel Tolkien. ...'

   I've never heard of the name "Reuel" before.  Anyone care to comment on
   whether this is a common name Across the Water?

I don't know of anyone outside the Tolkien family called Reuel.

	Andrew McMurry
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: watson@sce.carleton.ca (Stephen Watson)
Subject: An Apology (was Re: Eowyn)
Organization: Carleton University
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 02:57:16 GMT

I would like to apologize to Jim Chokey, and anyone else who might
have been offended by my earlier post.  I became annoyed by the
endless argument about what seems to me to be a very simple thing.  To
post this annoyance, is of course, inexcusable; the 'n' key is always
close at hand.  Sorry.

Provoked by Jim's expression of annoyance with me, I have reviewed the
unexpired (~3 days) portion of the Racism and Eowyn threads to try and
get the drift of the arguments.  There appears to be a continuum of
views (I'm somewhere in the middle), from those who don't see ANY
problem, to Jim, who seems to see LOTR as fraught with racism and
sexism to a fairly high level.

Jim: My main disagreement with you is that (IM-very-HO), you read too
much into the text (and I am not alone in this view).  I attempted to
give an example of this in the latter (and more rational) part of my
post, which I note you have not (yet) attempted to dispute (and the
text of which I am unable to retrieve for inclusion at this point
without a great deal of trouble. Sorry ;-( )

jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU (James Alexander Chokey) writes:
>	(BTW, I really enjoyed the irony of "it's just a bloody STORY for
>crying out loud" in one sentence being followed by "this great work of
>literature" in the next.)  :-)

As a great lover of irony myself, I'm always happy to tickle people's
sense of the ironic ;-)
--
==Steve Watson: watson@sce.carleton.ca===Carleton University, Ottawa, Ontario==
| The above is the output of a 7th-order Markovian analysis of all posts on   |
| this group for the past month.  Not only is it not Carleton's opinion, it's |
| not even *my* opinion: it's really just a mish-mash of all YOUR opinions!   |
From: mjsimko@sumax.seattleu.edu (Matthew Simko)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: May I have some more
Date: 18 Dec 1992 10:40:09 -0800
Organization: Seattle University
NNTP-Posting-Host: sumax.seattleu.edu









	I have a question that I feel the good people of this newsgroup
could answer. I friend of mine swears that a series of books with the
first book called "Infinity Concerto" is the greatest thing under the sun.
(He has never read LoTR) Does anyone out there know anything about this? I
an reading LoTR right now for the ? time and when I am finished I might
try this series. Any insights?
Thanks
Matthew
Organization: University of Maine System
Date: Thursday, 17 Dec 1992 15:51:56 EST
From: Steven A. Nickerson <NICKERSN@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Different dates given...

A friend of mine recently gave me a listing of important dates in
Tolkien's works (i.e. 04/17 An unexpected party).  This listing
can be used to generate reminders on the given days. In Appendix
B of my Return of the King volume I have a number of dates given as
well (probably where the listing came from originally).  My question
is...  every date in the listing is off by 8 days from the dates in
my bokk.   Does anyone have any idea why...?   My book is a 1983
printing from Houghton-Mifflin and my friend did not know where his
listing came from (somewhere "over the network").  I'm just curious
if there are a lot of "inconsistencies" / changes like this from
version to version, or if I just happen to have encountered the only
one big change to have occurred...
Thanks!

SteveN (S.A. Nickerson)      ------------------------------------
 COS Student - UMaine        Trying to establish voice contact---
                             please yell into the keyboard.
                             ------------------------------------
 NICKERSN@Maine.maine.edu
From: mmay@mizar.usc.edu (Marlin May)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Balrogs, Nazgul, and Sauron
Date: 11 Dec 1992 13:50:17 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: mizar.usc.edu

Rene Boe Wrote (with some deleted):

>I think you have mistaken the Nazgul's for the Ringwraith's.  The
>Nazgul's were the flying beast's the Ringwraith's rode upon when Frodo
>and his company came nearer to Mordor (at least if my memory serves me
>correct at this late hour.)

>Rene Boe
>--
> | Rene Boe Sorensen              |    ////   | E-mail : rene@iesd.auc.dk     |
> | Department of Computer Science |   c-OO    |                               |
> | Aalborg University (AUC)       |       \   | contraria sunt complementa    |
> | Denmark                        |      -    |              Niels Bohr       |

Greetings:

I believe that a closer reading of the LOTR reveals that the Nazgul were the 
Ring wraiths.  It was an innovation (??) of Sauron to corrupt some poor flying beasts to act as their steeds when they had to cover the vastness of Middle 
Earth in search of the One Ring.

Said (IMHO),

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
mmay@mizar.usc.edu                        |     ^     "DO WHAT THOU WILT
Marlin May, Broadcast Program Specialist  |   /(*)\    SHALL BE THE WHOLE
University of Southern California,        |  /     \   OF THE LAW"
Instructional Television Network          | ::::::::: Standard disclaimer
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mvoorhis@granite.WPI.EDU (Michael C Voorhis)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: The Disclaimer
Date: 12 Dec 92 07:52:52
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute, Worcester, MA 01609-2280
	<1gb7eeINNijl@uwm.edu> <1992Dec12.011157.14583@leland.Stanford.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: granite.wpi.edu
In-reply-to: jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU's message of Sat, 12 Dec 92 01:11:57 GMT

In article <1992Dec12.011157.14583@leland.Stanford.EDU> jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU (James Alexander Chokey) writes:
>  No.  The Houghton-Mifflin editions are still widely available in
> the U.S. They're a bit more expensive, to be sure--  but they are sturdier
> and they're out there.

I think H-M only does hardcover editions of Prof. Tolkien's works.  I don't
think I've ever seen a paperback, other than a large format trade-paperback
format, from H-M.

Does H-M `sub-contract' out to Ballantine when they decide to send a book
into paperback?  The lost-tales 1 and 2 are now in ballantine paperbacks.

	Mike.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Half-elves becoming elves
Date: 18 Dec 1992 13:00:29 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

Does it seem strange to anyone else that half-elves can choose to be
either human or elf no matter what their parents chose?  For example,
Dior was the child of Beren and Luthien after she had accepted death
and become, for all intents and purposes, a human.  Yet Dior was
an elf, became king of elves, married an elf, and got all the
benefits of union membership.

So the choices of the parents do not affect subsequent generations,
though the choices of Elrond and Elros seem to have determined
the fates of their children...

Does this mean that the children of Arwen and Aragorn could choose to
be elves if they wished?  Or is it too late to make such a choice in
the fourth age?  Or does the fact that the children would be mostly
human (19/32 human, by my reckoning, ignoring the miniscule amount of
elven blood that Aragorn carried) fix their choice for them?  (But
wouldn't the case of Elrond and Elros, both of whom were mostly
elven (5/8 elven, by my count) and who got to choose, argue against
this?)

Or is my counting of descendents on the family tree pretty much a
dull accountant's view of such things, and meaningless within the
bounds of Middle Earth?
From: jadair@cs.utexas.edu (John S. Adair)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Bilbo/Tonto (was Re: Balrogs, Nazgul, and Sauron)
Date: 15 Dec 1992 09:31:30 -0600
Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin
NNTP-Posting-Host: cash.cs.utexas.edu

In article <1992Dec14.111101.7141@alf.uib.no>
bjornts@ii.uib.no (Bjoern Tore Sund) writes:
>Pardon me, for breaking in with an diversion (sp?). You do mean Frodo? Is Tonto
>the name for Frodo in some translation of LoTR? Which translation?

>Wether it really was Aragorn or Frodo or all of the five together that scared
>off the Nazgul is a highly debatable matter, but not a topic for a very
>constructive debate, IMHO....

I guess I should have limited the distribution.
I wasn't trying to start a constructive debate, I was making a _joke_.
He said
>lone Ranger
I said
>Tonto
On the old TV show (probably also comics, etc.) _The Lone Ranger_
Tonto was the Lone Ranger's native American ('Indian') sidekick. I didn't
realize that not everyone would know the reference.

                                             -John
From: rwang@husc8.harvard.edu (Richard Wang)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Other series?
Date: 11 Dec 92 21:23:59 GMT

Sorry about the crudeness of my method of posting, all--I'm essentially
computer illiterate. :-(

About the other fantasy series you were mentioning, however, I myself favor:

Fred Saberhagen's *Book of Swords*.  There's a decently fleshed-out world
behind it, and Saberhagen avoids the pitfall of trying to explain
EVERYTHING in his books.  I prefer a little mystery; it adds to the
grandeur and scope of most books.

Ursula LeGuin's Earthsea Trilogy.  Excellent, if a little preachy in my
eyes.  And no Tolkien-flavor, which I find refreshing--entirely too many
writers these days incorporate his ideas and characterizations in their
own works, which makes for uninteresting reading since none of them can
really match him.  I guess imitation *is* the sincerest form of flattery,
eh? :)

Robert Asprin's "Myth" series.  Yes, it's silly and shallow, but still
tremendously entertaining.  And, rather strangely, the hero undergoes a
sort of mid-life crisis starting at around the sixth book.  Come ON!  He's
still a teen!

Frank Herbert's "Dune" series--at least the first few books.  The whole
thing winds down and becomes  mere drudgery after a while.  What was that
quote?  "There are entirely too many pages between the covers of this
book?"  Fits some of the later books perfectly.

Raymond Feist's series; can't remember what it's called.  Starts with
"Magician: Apprentice" and "Magician: Master", moves on to "Silverthorn"
and "A Darkness at Sethanon."  Also, the "Empire" series about Mara of the
Acoma, set in the Tsurani Empire, is pretty good reading.

David Eddings has two series entitled "Belgariad" and "Malloreon".  Some
intriguing ideas about magic and deities, but they tend to drag, and his
dialogue mixes annoyingly cute roasts and comebacks with ridiculously
pompous declarations of might and power.  If interested, I would recommend
the "Belgariad" since it's shorter and less likely to completely destroy
your interest by the third book.

I thought the "DeathGate" cycle by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman would
be good, but it's turning out to be rather disappointing.

Individual books?  Hmmmm.  Roger Zelazny's "Lord of Light" is wonderful,
at least if you can stand having your fantasy visions destroyed by Zelazny's
scientific explanations of divine powers and supernatural manifestations. 
Really an excellent book.

Richard Wang
rwang@husc8.harvard.edu

Murphy's 1st and 2nd Laws of Thermodynamics:
1. You can't win.
2. You can't even break even.
 
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: waynebro@juliet.caltech.edu (Broughton, Wayne Jeremy)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Witch-King and various other undead
Date: 14 Dec 1992 02:54 PST
Organization: California Institute of Technology
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: juliet.caltech.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

Hi, my newsfeeder has apparently just added this group this weekend, and 
though it has been a little while since I last read LoTR or Silmarillion,
I decided to go by memory and answer this anyways:  :-)

In article <lewchuk.724229725@therien>, lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk) writes...
> 
>Ever notice that in Lord of the Rings, none of the undead ever identifiably
>killed anyone?  The Barrow-Wight and the Ringwraiths presumably wanted
>to either force hopelessness on people or turn them into undead.  The
>Ringwraths never harmed anyone, and neither did the Dead of Erech.  The
>Unseen Watchers of Minas Morgul also didn't seem to be able to do anything.
>Only Theoden's horse was killed by the RingWrath Lord.  Strange that such
>weapons of terror never killed anyone directly.  As Tolkien says, through
>a recount by Gimli, the Dead didn't need weapons because none could
>withstand them (their fear aura).
> 
>					Michael Lewchuk
>					lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA
I don't agree that the Nazgul never harmed anyone physically nor had
the ability to kill.  On Weathertop Frodo was stabbed by a Ringwraith
and would probably have died if not for Aragorn, although this was while
he wore the Ring and was visible to the Wraiths.  It seems the effect
of the Black Breath was deadly:  Faramir was certainly stricken and
again would have died if not for "the hands of the King".  And I seem
to recall that while the Lord of the Nazgul was Witch-king of Angmar
he slew one of the kings of Arnor (or maybe the slaying is not actually
directly attributed to him??).

Wayne. 
**********************************************************************

Wayne J. Broughton                 Take the road less travelled by.  
waynebro@juliet.caltech.edu    

Caltech has no idea what my opinions are;  
they think I'm working right now...