From: kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu (Dr Nancy's Sweetie)
Subject: Re: Bogus Religious Arguments
Summary: Things are expiring before I'm replying to them.
Keywords: logic, argument, analogy, creation, design, `Woof!'
Organization: Glassboro State College (until Fall, anyway)
Disclaimer: I'm posting news instead of giving Brandy his bath.
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 19:50:53 GMT


In an earlier posting with this subject line, I examined a set of arguments
that people use as proof that God exists.  In short, I said that most of those
arguments are garbage.

Doug Graham and Steve Peterson asked some reasonably good questions, but their
articles have expired while I was helping Nancy make a set of shelves.  (She's
so neato!  8-} )  I think I basically remember what they were getting at, so
I'll give it a shot.

Mr Peterson wanted to know what I made of Paul's apparent use of `Argument
from Design' at Romans 1:18-20.  Partly I see a bit of hyperbole here; Paul
writes that "what may be known about God is plain to them" based on the world
around them.  But most Christians believe that there are things revealed in
the Bible which are not obviously apparent using natural theology -- I see
this as Paul exaggerating to make a point.  Of course, it may be that Paul had
a particular argument from design in mind, and that it is logically valid.
But he didn't tell us what it IS -- the proof, if indeed he had one, would be
a most useful witnessing tool.  But just knowing that it exists, without
knowing what it is, doesn't help any.  (Fermat would be proud: "There is a
remarkably simple proof of God's existence, which unfortunately won't fit in
the margin of this scroll."  8-)


Mr Peterson's other question was similar to Mr Graham's, I think.  That is,
what does one say when witnessing, if there aren't any good arguments?

My belief is based in part on an indescribable religious experience: I met God
once.  He just showed up one day.  It was most impressive.  So I tell people
that, and tell them that I can't really explain it, and that I know they
probably think I'm a nut.  Sometimes they don't want to hear more, and
sometimes they do.  So I try to communicate the sense of "holy" that I got;
and how I see God working in the world.

But I always tell them that I am NOT constructing logical arguments.  Using a
known-flawed argument is inexcusably dishonest, and I make clear that "how I
see God working in the world" is pattern-matching, not science.  Science is
measuring a deer, measuring mud, calculating how far in the deer will sink,
and then testing it.  Pattern-matching is more like going to a muddy field,
looking at the impressions in the mud, and trying to decide if they are deer
tracks or just accidents.


I believe that the only way someone can come to a saving knowledge of Jesus
Christ is by encountering him personally.  He may or may not appear to
somebody in person -- I have no control over that.  The only thing I can do is
show Christ living through me; if another person sees Him as I did, that is
the absolute best I can do.  In part, this is why I am a Christian -- I see
the love of Christ in others who follow him.  (And sometimes I don't, alas.)

This looks good on phosphor, but it has a problem: I'm not particularly good
at it, having both a temper and an acerbic tongue (and a few other flaws).
But, as I am continually reminded, God isn't finished with me yet.


 [ In closing, a pile of quotes: ]

Darren F Provine / kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu

"Bach almost persuades me to be a Christian." -- Roger Fry

"We do not draw people to Christ by loudly discrediting what they believe, by
 telling them how wrong they are and how right we are, but by showing them a 
 light that is so lovely that they want with all their hearts to know the
 source of it." -- Madeleine L'Engle

"Fine counsel is confusing, but example's always clear;
 And the best of all the preachers are the men who live their creeds,
 For to see the good in action is what everybody needs.  [...]
 And the lectures you deliver may be very wise and true;
 But I'd rather get my lesson by observing what you do." -- Edgar A Guest
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc