HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: zavgren@doowap.ltn.dec.com (John Zavgren DTN 226-6646)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Primitive Beach areas in California?
Date: 8 Apr 92 20:27:58 GMT
Reply-To: zavgren@school.enet.dec.com (John Zavgren DTN 226-6646)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


I'm going to be in California with my girlfriend for the first week
of June. What are some good primitive beach areas where we can camp for
about three days?

RSVP
John Zavgren zavgren@school.enet.dec.com
From: gray@rz-berlin.mpg.de
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Land Navigation/Map & Compass/Routefinding
Date: 7 Apr 92 15:13:52 +0100
Organization: Rechenzentrum MPG Berlin

In article <WHITLOCK.22@vaxb.gbus.virginia.edu>,
  WHITLOCK@vaxb.gbus.virginia.edu (Reid E. Whitlock) writes:
>
>  (stuff about how he's teaching navigation)
> 
> In this context, what do you think would work well for a group of people who 
> are "outdoorsy" and have some backpacking experience under their belts, but 
> have tended to use guide books or nothing at all rather than real maps and 
> compasses?
> 

  The thing that I found hardest to learn, and have subsequently found
hardest to convince other people to do, is to trust the compass and
not intuition.  The rounded, lookalike hills of the UK are perfect
for getting lost in, particularly in foggy/wet weather when the 
translational invariance of the universe aquires a very personal 
relevance.  In such conditions you have to not only be able to read a
map, but also to get from place to place without strong map-to-ground
clues as to where you currently are.

  One exercise that we used to develop this ability can be described as mapless
orientiering.  The instructor writes a list of way-points and the bearings
and distances between them.  The instructed have to make their way from
point to point using the list, their compasses and pace counting.  No map
may be used (although one may be carried in a sealed package for safety's 
sake).  To avoid large accumulation of errors the way-points should be fairly
distinctive.  The thing can be made harder by making the routes traverse
obstacles that have to be dog-legged round.

  This works best if visibility is reduced, since it is then impossible
for the instructed to spot the way-point from a long way off and defeat
the point of the exercise.  We used to do it at night.  On Dartmoor, an
extended peat bog in SW England, there are sealed plastic containers at
many major landmarks.  These contain a stamp and ink-pad, and people
collect them as a way of marking their progress round the moor.  They
make ideal way-points, rather like the stations in an orienteering race.

  Our last way-point was usually a meal stop - 'incentivising' I think the
management gurus call it.  When we made it to the last point, the final task
(before the meal is served) was to open the map, be shown the start point
and to work out where we now were.

  This all requires some preparation on the part of the instructor, but
is great fun for all involved and certainly taught me that a compass and
a measured stride were much more use than looking at the scenery and guessing.

Struan
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: akarpowicz@mta.ca (Adam Karpowicz)
Subject: Survival skills
Reply-To: akarpowicz@mta.ca
Organization: Mount Allison U, Sackville, N.B. Canada 
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1992 17:30:47 GMT


Following the recent discussion on "getting lost" I would like to know
what are the merits of learning survival skills in a survival school.
I understand such schools teach how to survive indefinitely living
off the land with no or min. equipment. I guess it could be very
useful and would greatly reduce fear and stress of getting lost.
Does anyone have an opinion on this?

For Canadians out there, are there any survival schools in the
Maritimes?

Adam
From: hall@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Hal Lillywhite)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: If You get Lost
Date: 17 Apr 92 19:49:51 GMT
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or.

In article <kuu0uiINNqcd@spim.mips.com> jimiii@mips.com (Jim Warford) writes:

> Something else to add to the lost discussion.  If you believe yourself
>to be lost and due to a last minute change in itinerary or (stupid)
>failure to notify someone else of your intended route you believe
>help may be either long in coming or never coming you can always find
>a stream or creek or river and follow it.  Most of the time water
>will eventually lead to a road of some type.  Check your maps before
>going into an area to determine if the follow it downstream approach
>will get you out.  Sometimes it won't but will rather lead you into
>an area like the Snake River canyon from which there is no easy egress.

I have to second the caution.  Following a watercourse downstream
will in theory lead you back to some form of civilization in most
areas.  However it is not always possible or safe.  By its very
nature a stream tends to create gorges, waterfalls, swamps, thick
vegetation etc.  I wouldn't even trust a map to warn me of these
obstacles since most of them are not large enough features to show
up on a map.

If you absolutely must try to walk out I think you are usually
better off going cross country.  Be sure you do not walk in circles
by using a compass or walking toward landmarks.  Before you even
begin to walk be certain you are walking toward something which will
get you out of the wilderness.  

If you have learned survival skills an Anmar suggests (and I heartily 
endorse) you are probably better off to just stay put, even for 
several days.  In most areas the search will expand and there is a 
good chance you will eventually be found.  If you make yourself (or 
your deliberately placed clues) highly visible a search aircraft can 
find you from a long ways away.  Even if you don't have those
survival skills a little common sense and creativity will allow you
to survive a long time.  As a rule of thumb a person can survive
about 3 times as long as you would think he could.

As I wrote before, think long and hard before you try to walk out.
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: scarlett@bnr.ca (Michael Dorotich)
Subject: Re: North Face tents!
Keywords: areohead
Reply-To: scarlett@bnr.ca
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 92 16:38:56 GMT

In article <fraser_g.1@aci_1.aci.ns.ca>, fraser_g@aci_1.aci.ns.ca writes:
|> I am curious to what the Aerohead North Face tent is all about? What is its 
|> price?  Is it suited to be an all round weather tent or is the OV - 25, VE - 
|> 24 or VE -25 what I should be looking at. I am looking for a  two man tent 
|> that will with stand the pounding of snow in winter and the  sand particles 
|> driven by 80 km/h gusts in the summer on the beach.   
|> 
|> FRASER GILL
|> Halifax, NS


Why not consider a Sierra Designs Stretch Dome w/ the Expedition Fly option?  It
is the 4-season expedition of choice second only to the VE-24/25, weighs less, and
costs less.  Unless you're planning a trip up Mt. Everest, why spend the money
on a North Face?
From: jimiii@mips.com (Jim Warford)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: If You get Lost
Date: 17 Apr 1992 16:58:58 GMT
Organization: MIPS Computer Systems, Sunnyvale, California
NNTP-Posting-Host: electron.mips.com

 Something else to add to the lost discussion.  If you believe yourself
to be lost and due to a last minute change in itinerary or (stupid)
failure to notify someone else of your intended route you believe
help may be either long in coming or never coming you can always find
a stream or creek or river and follow it.  Most of the time water
will eventually lead to a road of some type.  Check your maps before
going into an area to determine if the follow it downstream approach
will get you out.  Sometimes it won't but will rather lead you into
an area like the Snake River canyon from which there is no easy egress.

--jimiii



-- 
 Faster horses
 Younger women 
 Older whiskey
 More money!
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: pburke@vms.macc.wisc.edu (Peter Burke, MIC, 608-263-7744)
Subject: Re: Info requested on White Mtn, Southern CA
Organization:  University of Wisconsin Academic Computing Center
Distribution: usa
Date:  7 APR 92 10:38:49    

In article <1992Apr6.020222.1001@leland.Stanford.EDU>, bohnert@leland.stanford.edu (matthew bohnert) writes...


>Has anybody climbed White Mtn. on the CA/Nevada border during the summer?
>I was thinking about attempting it this summer.  I'm not an experienced
>technical climber, so I would like to know if:
> 
>1)  Is it like Whitney in the summer, i.e. no snow after Mid-June,
>	'hikable' to the top? Possibly a trail?
> 
>2)  Is it like Shasta, i.e. lots of snow to the top, but no ropes required
>	or crampons (although my friends say crampons are a must 

I've been up there twice - both times in July ('90 and '91).  You could 
DRIVE to the summit if it wasn't for the gate that closes the road at 
about 11500feet.  From there it's a 7.5 mile hike to the summit.  Some 
snow, but hardly any -compared to the Sierra this range is in the 
desert!

I did it in tennis shoes - up and down in about 7 hours.  Not much 
traffic up there, but definitely a great peak - the view to the Sierra 
and into Nevada are super.

I recommend light hiking boots, daypack with lots of water (none on th 
etrail, unless it's early season), and some rain and weather gear, 
because it can get pretty windy up there.  

Enjoy

Peter
From: ed@titipu.meta.com (Edward Reid)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: tent (?) question
Date: 11 Apr 92 16:07:24 GMT
Reply-To: ed@titipu.meta.com (Edward Reid)
Organization: Metalogic
X-Mailer: uAccess - Macintosh Release: 1.9b1

In article <1992Mar31.183258.1@amherst.edu> (rec.backcountry), jkwatson@amherst.edu writes:
> A friend and I are planning to hike a good portion of the AT this summer.  I've

In article <scott.702579404@phylo> (rec.backcountry), scott@phylo.life.uiuc.edu (MrBadExample) writes:
> a bit in the Northern US Rockies and the Boreal Forests on in and
>    ...
> The rain is usually no big deal in these areas- small drops, only

However, on the AT the rain is a big deal.  The Great Smoky Mountains get 90
inches per year.  A good bit of the rain arrives in heavy thunderstorms.  Be
prepared for very heavy rain, day or night.

Edward Reid  (8-}>
  eel:   ed@titipu.meta.com  or  nosc.mil!titipu.meta.com!ed
  snail: PO Box 378/Greensboro FL 32330
From: ajs@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Alan Silverstein)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 21:55:21 GMT
Subject: Re: Info requested on White Mtn, Southern CA
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry

> Has anybody climbed White Mtn.  on the CA/Nevada border during the
> summer?

Yes, I did, in August 1987.  It was a memorable hike.  I'll mail you my
"trip report" on it.

> Is it like Whitney in the summer, i.e.  no snow after Mid-June,
> 'hikable' to the top?  Possibly a trail?

It has a *road* to the top, an old jeep road to serve the summit hut.
The summit was raped in the name of science, but the scenery is still
special.
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: eugene@amelia.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: [l/m 6/20/91] Distilled Wisdom (15/28): Leopold's post XYZ
Followup-To: poster
Organization: NAS Program, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 92 11:21:11 GMT
Reply-To: eugene@amelia.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)

Xref: sparky rec.backcountry:3141 rec.photo:6814
From: philw@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Philip White)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry,rec.photo
Subject: Re: Backpacking camera
Date: 7 Apr 92 20:29:56 GMT
Followup-To: rec.photo,rec.backcountry
Distribution: usa
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or.

In article <1992Mar31.172323.2691@rtsg.mot.com>, sagerian@delphinium.UUCP (Steve M. Sagerian) writes...
>Hello backpackers,
>Does anyone know of a 35mm SLR camera that has interchangeable lens and is 
>designed to be light weight for backpacking?  
> 
>Thanks...Stever

I use a Nikon FG for this sort of thing.  It's not really designed for 
backpacking, probably other folks would say a Nikon FE2 is better
since it's more rugged.  Note that rugged implies heavier in general...
 
As I've said on this net before, I like the FG because it's light and
it has TTL flash metering.  New enough to have TTL flash, old enough
to have no heavy features like autofocus.  The FG is no longer made,
you have to get a used one (same as the FE2...)
 
I can weigh my FG and FE2 and get back to you if you want.
Note that all these older Nikons can use the new autofocus lenses
if you also have an AF body at home.
 
      Phil White   Tektronix, Beaverton, OR
USENET:   philw@vice.ICO.TEK.COM
 US Mail: Mail Stop 59-432, P.O. Box 500, Beaverton OR 97077-0001
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: roberts@stsci.edu (Jim Roberts)
Subject: Re: tent (?) question
Organization: Space Telescope Science Institute
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1992 17:23:15 GMT


In the ** 50s ** tents were canvas.  Ripstop nylon was readily
available in the 60s.  I bought a good ripstop nylon tent from REI in
the mid 60's that I still have.

Does anyone remember when WWII was?
-- 
Jim Roberts	roberts@stsci.edu	scivax::roberts
From: hall@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Hal Lillywhite)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: If You get Lost
Date: 17 Apr 92 19:36:53 GMT
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or.


In article <1992Apr17.155456.26832@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> amirza@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (anmar mirza) writes:

[Regarding the disagreement about rationing food and water when
lost]

>I'll agree with the original poster.  I've spent much time learning
>how to survive in the wild.  Unless I'm in a tropical environment, my
>priority list is:
>Shelter 
>Fire
>Water
>Food

Agreed with the addition of Angela's psychological needs as first
priority.  Of course by starting to work on shelter etc. you give
yourself a psychological boost.

>The most important need to attend to is prevention of hypothermia.
>This includes shelter and fire.  Obviously you wouldn't need a fire
>during the day in a desert environment, or summer in the midwest, but
>anywhere where the nighttime temperature drops below 70F fire is a
>priority.  Advantages to fire include water and food purification and
>psychological comfort.  

True although above timberline or in other arid areas it may not be
possible.  Depending on how well equipped you are it may not even be
necessary.  If you are carrying a sleeping bag and tent or bivy sack
you can usually do without a fire, albeit with less comfort.  Even
adequate clothing can prevent hypothermia, especially if you can get
into reasonable shelter.  Of course I will agree that the fire has
many advantages if you can build and maintain one, not the least of
which is that it makes it easier for searchers to find you.  Just
don't give up if you can't build a fire, continue doing the other
things which will help ensure your survival.  Perhaps I'm a bit
sensitive to this because I regularly look for lost people above
timberline and others who either can't or don't build fires in the
rainy northwest.

>                  Water and food are comparatively simple if one
>is properly trained. 

In my opinion that is a *big* "if."  Most people who get lost are
not properly trained.  (In fact if they were most would not get
lost.)  Many cannot distinguish between edible and inedible berries
and roots nor do they know how to find potable water.  While I agree
people who go into the backcountry *should* know such things reality
tells me that many will not.

Anmar, you are likely the most knowlegable person on survival
posting here.  I congradulate you on that.  However my advice was
not aimed at such as you, you don't need it.  In fact maybe you
could post some survival tips for the rest of us.
From: zavgren@doowap.ltn.dec.com (John Zavgren 508-486-6646)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Vacation spots in California
Date: 9 Apr 92 20:03:59 GMT
Reply-To: zavgren@school.enet.dec.com
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


>
>I'm going to be in California with my girlfriend for the first week
>of June. What are some good primitive beach areas where we can camp for
>about three days?
>
>RSVP
>John Zavgren zavgren@school.enet.dec.com

|California... big state... lots of coastline... what area are you looking in?
|I suggest you repost with more specifics, otherwise I do not know where to
|begin.


     I must agree. Very boring and vague description of trip. More umph needed
     and details. How about...

I will be retreiving what remains of my weary librarian friend after a week 
of library conferencing by day and very un-librarian like dancing and drinking
by night. This unusual (or should I say unfortunate) combination of behaviors will be
taking place in the San Francisco area in early June. Upon retreival of this
sorry soul, I hope to revive her with a good hike up some steep Californian
mountain. However, in the case that she outright refuses to climb even a hill,
I'm looking for some exotic or at least semi-private beach camping. Any ideas?
Advice? About the camping part I mean. Any hiking/camping ideas within a 
reasonable range of San Francisco will be entertained. Even mountain hikes.
Hey, I can dream can't I?
From: ssnyder@sunai.er.usgs.gov (Steve Snyder)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Abandoned places
Date: 8 Apr 92 12:53:42 GMT
Organization: U.S. Geological Survey, Reston VA

In article <1992Apr7.225512.5510@cheshire.oxy.edu> tamada@cheshire.oxy.edu (Michael K. Tamada) writes:
>     I can't resist putting in a plug for a non-profit organization called
>the Rails-to-Trails Confederacy (I think that's the name, although 
>it sounds like some Civil War group).  They encourage governments to
>buy up old railroad rights of way for use as walking paths, or biking
>or horse trails.

Actually, it's the Rails-to-Trails Conservancy. They are a great group,
I've been to a few of their meetings. We have one old RR grade in the
Washington, DC area that has been the focus of much attention the past
few years, its name slips my mind at the moment. It cuts through part
of the Washington suburbs and ends in Georgetown, in DC. Large parts
of it have been protected, but there are still parts of it that are in
danger of being developed.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Steve Snyder            | This space for rent, inquire within. 
  ssnyder@sunai.er.usgs.gov     |  
US Geological Survey Reston, VA | I only speak for myself. me.
From: clindh@abalon.se (Christer Lindh)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: North Face tents!
Date: 12 Apr 92 08:10:39 GMT
Organization: Abalon AB, Stockholm, Sweden


In article <fraser_g.1@aci_1.aci.ns.ca> fraser_g@aci_1.aci.ns.ca writes:

   I am curious to what the Aerohead North Face tent is all about? 
   I am looking for a two man tent that will with stand the pounding
   of snow in winter

When I was shopping around for a tent in Seattle last year I was
thinking of buying one of these as it's 4-season, freestanding and
lighter than the VE-24/25. However, the salesman at the North Face
shop told me the Aerohead had a slight snow accumulation problem. (I
do like honest salespersons...)

If you look at it you can see it has a flat area on top where snow
accumulate.  I bought the trusted Westwind (lighter, but not
freestanding) instead and it has served me fine in summer as well as
in one Lappland snow-storm.

The Westwind is a bit cumbersome to put up in heavy wind as you need
to put on the rainfly separately (this seems to be the case with most
American-made tents) but when it's up it's not going anywhere...
-- 
::        clindh@abalon.se        ::   o/       ::                          ::
::  Abalon AB, Stockholm, Sweden  ::  /@        ::          Earth.          ::
::        59.19 N, 17.57 E        ::  <|\  acro ::   Love it or leave it.   ::
::    * All disclaimers apply *   ::   |   phil ::                          ::
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: fraser_g@aci_1.aci.ns.ca
Subject: North Face tents!
Keywords: areohead
Organization: Atlantic Computer Institute
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 18:59:19 GMT

I am curious to what the Aerohead North Face tent is all about? What is its 
price?  Is it suited to be an all round weather tent or is the OV - 25, VE - 
24 or VE -25 what I should be looking at. I am looking for a  two man tent 
that will with stand the pounding of snow in winter and the  sand particles 
driven by 80 km/h gusts in the summer on the beach.   

FRASER GILL
Halifax, NS
From: nall@sun8.scri.fsu.edu (John Nall)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Abandoned places
Date: 8 Apr 92 17:09:17 GMT
Reply-To: nall@sun8.scri.fsu.edu (John Nall)
Organization: SCRI, Florida State University

In article <9378@vice.ICO.TEK.COM> hall@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Hal Lillywhite) writes:
>In article <1992Apr7.225512.5510@cheshire.oxy.edu> tamada@cheshire.oxy.edu (Michael K. Tamada) writes:
>
>>     I can't resist putting in a plug for a non-profit organization called
>>the Rails-to-Trails Confederacy (I think that's the name, although 

  [ ... snip ...]

>>are short of cash.  One of the biggest problems is the adjoining landowners,
>>who sometimes think that the rights of way should revert to them, and who
>>have fought (often to the Supreme Court) against turning these railroads
>>into trails.
>
>Well, trying to look at this from the landowner's viewpoint I doubt
>the value of the land is really that important.  Most of these
>landowners are farmers and a railroad right of way is not the best
>farmland - too many rocks etc. from the fill used to stablize the
>roadbed.  The problem is that a trail brings in people, even "city
>slickers!"  A certain percentage of these people are the type of
>
  [ ... more snipping ...]

>5.  Generally be friendly and considerate toward landowners.  Be a
>good neighbor, after all the problem is that the landowner thinks of
>the trail as the worst possible neighbor, show him he is wrong.

   We had an example of that here in Tallahassee just recently.  There
was an abandoned railroad line which ran from Tallahassee down to a little
fishing village called St. Marks.  The State of Florida wanted to turn it
into a biking path, and many of the land owners who had adjacent property
were adamantly against it, for the reasons cited above.  It was done, tho,
and fairly bitter feelings (and at least one lawsuit) resulted.

   Interesting, thing, tho.  I was talking with a friend of mine who
rides it almost every weekend with his girlfriend, and he said that the
attitude of the people who live along the biking path has changed now,
since they've discovered that bikers are generally pretty nice people.
In fact, some of the farmers have even been seen riding down the bike
path, with two or three children in tow, each with their own set of
training wheels :-)  

John


--
John W. Nall              | Supercomputer Computations Research Institute
nall@mailer.scri.fsu.edu  | Florida State University, Tallahassee, FL 32306

 "Disclaimer:  A world which requires disclaimers has too many lawyers."
From: bray@m.cs.uiuc.edu (Mike Bray)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Information request: Technical jobs in Arctic/Antarctic
Date: 14 Apr 92 20:51:03 GMT
Article-I.D.: m.1992Apr14.205103.6290
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana,  IL

Hi.  I posted a request like this a couple of years ago and got lots
of good responses, but they are stale now.  Does anyone have any 
information/contacts about technical (EE/CS) jobs in Antarctica, the 
Antarctic, or Arctic regions?

Thanks in advance,
Mike Bray  bray@cs.uiuc.edu
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry