From: davidh@cascade.ens.tek.com (David Hatcher)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Sufism: Reflections on a Sufi Evening (Long)
Date: 30 Sep 92 06:59:26 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.43520
Distribution: world
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.

In article <1a3okfINNlfm@sandman.caltech.edu> cup.portal.com!Tagi%portal@uunet.uu.net writes:
>In the name of Allah, the All-Merciful, the All-Beneficent, 
>the Most Munificent

>Lisa chose to move to be with the women.  It was the last time that 
>evening at the Center that I felt her fully with me.  She struggled 
>with the separation and what she felt to be the disrespect given to 
>her and the other women.   I sympathized, yet I did not understand the 
>depth of her feeling until we discussed it the next morning.
>
>This aspect of the Sufi Order concerns me most.  
                    ^^^^^^^^^^

  I'm not sure which order you visited, it was not the "Sufi Order"
though. The "Sufi Order" is one of those "other" orders that I will
be bringing up shortly.

  So, if you don't mind, I'd like to add something here. There are in
America Sufi groups that do not separate the men from the women in 
their Zikr circles. 

  Through the eyes of most Muslims though, these "other" Sufi groups 
are not "true" Sufi Orders because though they are greatly influenced 
by the Quran, and were brought here to the west by Muslim Sufi Murshids, 
of these groups that I'm thinking of, most members are not Muslims and 
do not focus ONLY upon the Quran for their spiritual direction.

  Now, I can't help but wonder if just perhaps the movement of Sufism 
into the west, and away from the social pressures as found within the
realm Muslim influence, won't allow for more of the actual manifesting of 
the teachings of Unity beyond duality into a wider and more encompassing
perspective some day. 

  I wonder about this because Sufism, as I understand it, truly is able
to bring into its awareness ALL spiritual traditions. The reason
being is that Sufism is based upon the "experience" of the Divine and 
not upon the "belief" of the Divine. And to expand ones awareness of the
Divine beyond the aspect of duality, one HAS to eventually take in the 
Divine as experienced outside of the Muslim perspective and include other
perspectives into its reach as well. 

  The bringing together of men and women as one into the Zikr circle, 
"I" feel, is but one aspect of that growth that is being manifested
here in America.  But here in the west we have more freedom to act 
upon the awareness of the need to include both man and women into our 
spiritual practices.  It's a social awareness where America leads the 
pack when compared to other regional areas. And I look upon the inclusion 
of this awareness into these "other" Sufi Orders as nothing more than an
evolutionary step for Sufism. Sufism has the potential to be very dynamic 
in its practice. But what that means is that it's potential for outer change
is also very dynamic. Thus, the example of the movement for inclusion of 
both men and women into it's Zikr circle in the "other" Sufi Orders. 

  When all is said and done though, it's at the inner level of the self 
where the magic *really* happens for one on the Sufi path. So why not have 
women included with men in Zikr? 

  These are just my thoughts as one whom is a member of one of those
"other" Sufi Orders. So please take into consideration that I am biased
and that I am not offering the last and final word on this. But this also
highlights some of the problems that many other spiritual traditions run 
into when they are brought to the west and are changed by us westeners. 



	Ecstatic Love is an ocean, and the Milky Way
	is a flake of foam floating on it.
					Rumi

	David Hatcher