HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jimu@orthanc.cs.s.oz.au (James Uther)
Subject: Re: Standardize NeXT
Reply-To: jimu@orthanc.cs.su.oz.au (James Uther)
Organization: Basser Dept of Computer Science, University of Sydney, Australia
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 22:55:25 GMT

In article <marcos-141292073958@pmarcos.kaleida.com>, marcos@kaleida.com (Paul Marcos) writes:
|> 
|> > 9) STANDARD WORD-PROCESSING FILE
|> > 
|> >    Some type of standard word-processing file needs to be
|> >    created.  It should be expandable like the PICT-II 
|> >    format is for graphics, but be readable by any word-
|> >    processing package.  Right now files tend to be in
|> >    MS-WORD format or MacWrite format.  A standard would
|> >    be very nice.  Standards for graphics spreadsheets and
|> >    other such applications would also be nice.
|> Isn't this the idea behind filters?  If I want to open a file 
|> that is in a format that I don't understand, but there is a filter
|> that can do the conversion for me then it will put it into a format
|> I can work with.  

	not quite. Consider the pure unix ideal of everything in ascii. This
allows you to write your own tools to manipulate any file easily, without
worrying about shit wierd file types. Just get rid of the need for filters

|> >    
|> > 10) DOCUMENT BASED COMPUTING
|> > 
|> >    This final item really couldn't be done under the MacOS.
 it was going into sys7, but they ran out of time.
|> >    It may be done under some other OS.  Here the basic
|> >    element of work is not the application, but rather the
|> >    document.  You could have paper documents ala page-
|> >    layout and word processing.  You could have cards,
|> >    spreadsheets and lists.  There would be different
|> >    tools to apply to the document.  A text tool would 
|> >    have many word-processing functions.  A graph tool
|> >    would do graphs.  A math tool could do equations,
|> >    spreadsheet function and other such functions.  A paint
|> >    tool would draw pictures.
|> >    
|> >    A movement towards this was brought by MS-Word (very
|> >    poorly though)  Here you have one main application
|> >    dealing with the basic structure and external tools
|> >    controled via OLE to do graphing, painting, and equations.
|> >    Having this expanded and put down on the OS layer or
|> >    Finder layer would be a fantastic improvement in
|> >    computing.
|> > 

	yes. Penpoint does it. NewtOS does it (apparently) OLE does it (badly)
'tis the wave of the future, etc.....

	james.
From: dillon@overload.Berkeley.CA.US (Matthew Dillon)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re:   100 Mips Intel NeXT (moved from comp.sys.next.misc)
Distribution: world
Date: 16 Dec 92 10:17:40 PST
Organization: Not an Organization

>NeXT doesn't care about you, Matt.  It cares about large corporate
>customers who prefer to purchase complete systems from one vendor.
>The time you might spend trying to find components cheaper in
>Computer Shopper is not worth it to such large corporate MIS shops.
>Time is money, and their time cost a lot more than yours.
>
>No offense, Matt, but whether people like you (and me) purchase
>NeXT hardware is of little concern to NeXT.
>
>Again with the 1/4 price for a 486?  Get real!

    Possibly true, but if that means NeXT has no intention of breaking into
    the massive PC consumer market, if that means that NeXT intends to
    stick to its tried and not-working policies, then after a few more
    years NeXT is going to go to the deep six itself.  How anybody can
    possibly believe that NeXT will somehow magically get market share
    doing the same thing as it has in the past is beyond me.

    As for 486 prices... I think 1/4 (or near to it) is reasonable.
    Computer shopper is used as an example, I spent less then 15 minutes
    looking through it for my most recent price posting.  I figure one can
    chop at least $500 off the higher end system prices I found with a
    little more looking.

				    -Matt

>--
>Nathan Janette 	"I'm a NeXTstep man,
>Dept MB&B, Yale Univ	 I'm a NeXTcube guy"
>New Haven, CT
>nathan@laplace.biology.yale.edu (NeXT)
>

--

    Matthew Dillon		dillon@Overload.Berkeley.CA.US
    1005 Apollo Way		uunet.uu.net!overload!dillon
    Incline Village, NV. 89451	ham: KC6LVW (no mail drop)
    USA 			Sandel-Avery Engineering (702)831-8000

Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: gbowie@dreams.skidmore.edu (Gavin Bowie)
Subject: the REAL problem is...
Organization: Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs NY
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 04:25:06 GMT

Ok, folks.
It DOESNT really matter what platform runs half a second faster.
It also doesnt matter what programs are best.

The real problem here is that in order for NeXT to succeed, 
enough people have to be convinced that their lives would be SIGNIFICANTLY  
improved by the adoption of NeXT hardware and/or NeXTStep of one kind or  
another.

People need a reason to change what already works fine.   The VAST  
majority of individual who use a computer need to complete a task, and  
whatever method they PERCEIVE as most efficient in terms of $ and also  
person-hours will be the one that they use.

As a dear friend said to me, it doesnt matter if I build a lightning fast  
computer with 50Mb RAM and a 2.5 terabyte storage capacity with access  
time of less than 1 ms .......
If IT WONT DO THE THINGS THAT I WANT, IT JUST DOESNT MATTER.

I can word-process perfectly well on my 10 year old IBM AT that is slow as  
a dog and has only a 20Mb drive.  I am familiar with WordStar 3 and have  
no reason to change.
On the other hand, I LOVE the NeXT.  I want three.
 (Never mind that I cant afford One  :)

In order for NeXT to make it, they need to convince everyone who is in the  
market for a computer that their lives will be made enough easier to  
justify the SHOCK FACTOR of plomping a NeXT down on the desk of everyone  
in a small organization.  Learning a new platform takes time, and time is  
money.  Not to mention the economy STILL sucks, and buying tons of new  
hardware is expensive. Especially from NeXT.

Several exec's i have talked to say that they would NOT accept FREE NeXT's  
simply because their employees would freak.  We are talking about people  
who are still using Lotus 1.0 and WordStar 4 : ie we are talking about the  
VAST majority of the population who use computers.


NS '486 is a Step (sorry) in the right direction.  But without SOFTWARE  
SUPPORT that is WELL PUBLICIZED and a huge (read: expen$ive) marketing  
effort, Steve's vision will NEVER be profitable.  And we'll all have  
expensive paperweights.


-trip
no cutesy .sig file found here!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: ijeff@hank.carleton.ca (Ian Jefferson)
Subject: Re: 100 Mips Intel NeXT (moved from comp.sys.next.misc)
Organization: Carleton University
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 17:10:06 GMT

In <dillon.0t0c@overload.Berkeley.CA.US> dillon@overload.Berkeley.CA.US (Matthew Dillon) writes:

>In article <1992Dec16.225920.23111@adobe.com> byer@adobe.com (Scott Byer) writes:
>>Matthew Dillon writes
>>
>>>     Furthermore, The EISA bus specification has no problem with
>>>     all elements required for a workstation... DMA, vectored
>>>     interrupts, etc...  Since I'm not familar with how much of the
>>>     specification has been implemented, I can't remark on existing
>>>     EISA machines, but I don't see the problem with EISA.  (ISA,
>>>     on the otherhand, has huge problems with DMA).
>>
>>Current EISA cards tend not to be able to run at the speeds required.
>>Also, the 16bit wide bus limitation is pretty severe.	(Are there
>>32 bit versions available yet?)

>    Main memory is not on the EISA (or ISA) bus and hasn't been for years.
>    Video is not even on the bus anymore.

>    The only thing that's happenning on the bus, in fact, is I/O, and
>    considering the fact that the NeXT is generally memory-bound I/O is not
>    really a problem.  Our (admittedly high end) PCs get 3MB/sec through
>    the filesystem, about 3 times what a NeXTStation get.

Wait a sec ...

What kind of PC's running what OS have you got.  I've never seen DOS machine
move files as fast as a NeXT can do ethernet. I've worked on some 66Mhz DELL
machines even.

I'd really like to know.  I have a small simple C benchmark that I run that
writes a large file (50 or 100 Mb) and I get about 700 to 1Mb/sec tranfer
rate to disk on a NeXT.  Even the fastest I/O machine that I know of the SGI
Crimson or 4D35 only gets at best 1.7 to 2.3 Mbs on really fast (not striped)
disks.  

I think you are seeing the effects of cache on your PC, if you increase the buffers on
a NeXT, or increase RAM,  you will get about the same effect.

If you want to try a very simple example copy a 10Mb file structure like shakespear
to /tmp on a  NeXT. Then do the same thing with your PC's.  I bet your NeXT will 
outperform any PC about 3:1, at least that has been my experiance.


-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ian Jefferson 	ijeff@ccs.carleton.ca No NeXT mail please!
		ijeff@computeractive.on.ca NeXT mail please!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: rsrodger@wam.umd.edu (Yamanari)
Subject: Re:  100 Mips Intel NeXT (moved from comp.sys.next.misc)
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 23:50:45 GMT

In article <1992Dec15.210045.20869@cs.yale.edu> nathan@laplace.biology.yale.edu writes:
>$1,000 for a 486 that will match the specs of a NeXTstation - now that's
>a joke.


	No, but for a generic 486 box.  Let's see:

	(note that I'm not trying to compare the <$1000 486, but
	a genuine system that NeXT would have to compete with)

	Gateway 486-DX2 66  (33/66mhz CPU) 
	16 megs of RAM
	ATI Ultra Pro (Local bus, 2 megs VRAM--same resolution as
	 	NeXT, but with 65k colors)
	340 megs HD
	dual floppies, mouse, PARALLEL port, extra serial, SLOTS, blah blah
	sound card (generic)
 
	~$3300 (depends on the price of ram).  
 
	This system is sans monitor.  You need to add a monitor,
	which runs anywhere from $1200 to $2000 (I have no idea what
	large monitors cost these days).  Better yet, buy one that
	supports the 1280x1024 mode.. 

	This system will trivially satisfy the requirements for
	NS486, and it will easily whip a NScolor Turbo.  What's 
	the pricing difference?  Probably about $1000 or so--which
	covers the cost of NS486.  Why buy?  Better support, expandability,
	hardware options, etc.

	So no, you can't get a comparable system for *that* much less,
	but you can get a better system for about the same price.


>>     guys having problems writing drivers, eh?  Keep on going the way you
>>     have and your 486 port is going to sink instead of splash, with about
>>     as much gratis marketting (magazine articles that drive the PC
>>     industry) as a cockroach gets in a printroom.
>
>Sure Matt, no problem, let's see, first we'll just get rid of that
>nasty DPS windowing system that requires so much video bandwidth...
>
>Not! 


	Umm, DPS doesn't necessarily have any more video 
	bandwidth than, say, MS Windows does--in fact, if it
	does NeXT needs to send their programmers back to their
	respective stations and get to work rewriting.  (Well,
	I take it back--the full-window-dragging bit is a lot
	higher bandwidth-wise than outline dragging...).  The
	big problem with DPS is that it sucks down a lot of
	processor bandwidth.. <even so, if anyone's ever seen
	other implementations of a display postscript--phew...>



-- 
	"If you can't eat sand, why the hell are you living in a desert?"

	     Rule 1:  "Don't have more children than you can feed."
	  	  Nuclear redevelopment for a better world!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: ostman@symphony.cc.purdue.edu (Adrian Ostman)
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP 486 delayed to Q3 - are you serious ?
Organization: Purdue University
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 16:46:09 GMT

In article <1992Dec15.122007.409@otago.ac.nz> athomson@otago.ac.nz  
(Alastair Thomson) writes:
> > 
> > How's this for a theory?  
> > NS 486 is already completely debugged and ready to go.  Its the  
ultimate OS
> > which delivers even more than it promises.  Little shrink-wrapped  
boxes
> > are sitting RIGHT NOW in NeXT warehouses.
> > 
> 
> I've just had some e-mail from an engineer at NeXT he says:
> "NS 486 is still in pre beta release..."
> Doesn't sound shrink wrapped to me!!
> 
> 
> 

I just Spoke to someone at NeXT and that Person told me that NS486 will be  
released in the first Quarter and they are sending me Documentation and  
other INFO as we speak.

		Interesting,


		Adrian 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: abell@netcom.com (Steven T. Abell)
Subject: Re: More Marketing Malarkey
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 19:15:22 GMT

matthews@ecfa.jsc.nasa.gov (Michael C. Matthews) writes:

> Steve Jobs is a marketer.  Bill Gates is an engineer.

No, Bill Gates is a hacker. Steve Jobs is an exception.

Steve abell@netcom.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: jeffo@uiuc.edu (J.B. Nicholson-Owens)
Subject: Re: 100 Mips Intel NeXT (moved from comp.sys.next.misc)
Reply-To: jeffo@uiuc.edu (J.B. Nicholson-Owens)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 06:46:50 GMT

David Lemson writes
> Hopefully, they will see the Advantage when NS486 is being sold in
> every Egghead so that people can see how powerful it is.

I seriously doubt that people are going to change to NeXTSTEP based on  
some demos off the 3.0 CD-ROM.  Seems like NeXT is a lot more likely to  
have massive problems making drivers for everyone's IBM-PC compatible  
machine featuring different combinations of this_video_card +  
that_display + the_other_hard_drive + something_else.

Finally, is Egghead a NeXT Value Added Reseller?  If not, won't the  
chances of NS486 being sold there be slim to none?
-- 
-- Jeff (jeffo@uiuc.edu)
-- NeXTmail welcome
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: statman@stat.ufl.edu (Chuck Kincaid)
Subject: Re: NCD's XRemote -- affect on NeXT?
Organization: University of Fl, Department of Statistics
Date: 12 Dec 92 16:43:18

>>>>> On Thu, 10 Dec 1992 22:10:28 GMT, gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu (Garance A. Drosehn) said:

 GAD> statman@stat.ufl.edu (Chuck Kincaid) writes:
 GAD> > NCD, Network Communications Devices (yes?), demo'd a couple of
 GAD> > products this morning at the UF Stats Dept here in Gainesville.
 GAD>        [desscriptions skipped]
 GAD> > If NeXT didn't exist, I would very likely get the X terminal.
 GAD> > Has anyone else seen these?  One of the big plusses for NeXT was being
 GAD> > able to have a cheap, fully functional workstation at home.  This
 GAD> > seems to be an alternative.

 GAD> Reminder: An X-terminal is not a workstation.  I can not imagine ever  
 GAD> wanting to have an X-terminal as a home workstation, unless maybe I had an  
 GAD> ethernet or FDDI linkup to my house.

	Ahh, but my point was that the speed was greater than 9600baud,
say.  They were using proprietary software.  The demos included
xloadimage, vi, and other sundry intensive stuff.  The people here in
the know were impressed.  Not necessarily so much that they would run
out and buy one, but impressed nonetheless.
	The advantages to this setup are
1) low cost.  The 15" monochrome was $700 and the 19" color was $3900
(both educational).
2) no worry about backup.  The site you login to does it for you.
3) Don't have to purchase software.  Again the site you login in to does
it for you.  Of course, this means that you are restricted to what they
have.
	Again, I'm not advocating this over the NeXT by any means.  I
much prefer my NeXT.  Even if they have abandoned Florida as a market.
I'm just saying that others might think that this is a better way to go.

chuck
	
--
charles d. kincaid		STATS:  (904) 392-1941
statman@stat.ufl.edu		CIRCA:  (904) 392-2007
'Damn fine coffee...and hot, too!'


Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: helz@ecn.purdue.edu (Randall A Helzerman)
Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP 486 delayed to Q3 - are you serious ?
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 03:20:04 GMT

In article <1992Dec8.204643.14091@bernina.ethz.ch>, flog@open.ch (Florian Gutzwiller) writes:
|> Is it true, that NeXT has officially stated, that NeXTSTEP 486 will be delayed  
|> to Q3 1993 ?

How's this for a theory?  
NS 486 is already completely debugged and ready to go.  Its the ultimate OS
which delivers even more than it promises.  Little shrink-wrapped boxes
are sitting RIGHT NOW in NeXT warehouses.

However, the hardware guys think that NS 486 is _too_ good.  You could just buy
NS 486 today and have a way faster system than anything NeXT is going to 
manufacture until...... Q3 1993????

I think NeXT is just scared that their $10 million factory will be idled
forever once NS 486 is released.
From: jefferis@manas.engr.widener.edu (Raymond P Jefferis)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: ftp access
Date: 11 Dec 1992 19:41:55 GMT
Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site
NNTP-Posting-Host: engr.widener.edu
Keywords: ftp

Dear News Readers:

We are experiencing some immature and improper access of our ftp area,  
probably in response to my posting earlier today.  This is to inform you  
that our "netman" takes such abuse very seriously and it may be dealt with  
accordingly.

For your own protection and peace of mind, please observe proper  
identification procedures when accessing our ftp area.  At this time there  
is nothing there for you anyway!

Thank you,
Raymond
 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: dmarks@thor.ece.uc.edu (Dallas J. Marks)
Subject: 486 Machine from NeXT
Organization: University of Cincinnati
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 03:16:06 GMT

As a prospective future NeXT buyer, I called 1-800-TRY-NeXT in response
to their $11.00 video offer (A couple of issues back in InfoWorld).
After ordering the videos, the telephone operator asked me if I wanted
information about NeXT's new 486 system.  I said yes, but haven't
received the videos, nor the information.

My guess is a cheap 486 system with the introduction of NeXTSTEP 486
(after the bugs in 3.0 are ironed out) followed by a multiprocessor
Pentium model that hopefully kicks some silicon butt and puts the hardware
issue to rest.

Anybody else order the videos?

Dallas J. Marks


-- 

================================================================================
Dallas J. Marks		Grad Student		University of Cincinnati
dmarks@uceng.uc.edu				dmarks@thor.ece.uc.edu
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It is a terrible thing to lose one's mind..."  - J. Danforth Quayle
================================================================================
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: gerben@rna.indiv.nluug.nl
Subject: Vegetarians (Was: Danish Computerwold dec 4, 1992 : "It's Showtime again!")
Organization: G.R.O.S.S.
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 09:37:51 GMT

In article <1gb56bINNo5s@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> isbell@cats.ucsc.edu (Art Isbell)  
writes:
> 
> In article <1992Dec11.115615.26502@lth.se> d89cb@efd.lth.se (Christian Brunschen)  
writes:
> >  And if there's one bad thing to say about Steve Jobs, then the fact
> >that he's a vegetarian.
> 
> I take offense at this :-)  It's a very admirable trait.  Probably keeps him
> from being more aggressive :-)

A. Hitler was a vegetarian. :-)

-- 
Gerben Wierda                 Tel. (+31) 35 833539
  "If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there."
  From the Talmud(?), rephrased in Lewis Carroll, "Alice in Wonderland".

Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: tacchi@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Mark G. Tacchi)
Subject: Re: More Marketing Malarkey (Was: Mike Slade)
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 23:22:12 GMT

In <1gap1sINNsf7@gap.caltech.edu> ernest@pundit.cithep.caltech.edu (Ernest Prabhakar) writes:

>Marketing people are locked into a marketing viewpoint - but engineering people  
>are locked into an engineering viewpoint.  If engineers ran things, everything  
>would just get faster, not better (like SUN ;-).  What is needed are creative  
>people in an environment that rewards creativity.  You don't need too many, or  
>you stifle communication, but you also need people from different perspectives  
>to help shape things.  The important thing is to get the right people, not just  
>get them from the right department.


And to add to this, I think it is fair to say that there are innovators within
each of these groups as well.  I can see from most of my colleagues that they
fit the typical engineer stereotype but I feel that there are some that have
qualities that are borrowed from other backgrounds.  These well rounded
individuals are actually hard to come by.

-Mark



-- 
Mark G. Tacchi                                    tacchi@next01.cc.umanitoba.ca
  Unix Support Group                                        (NeXT Mail Welcome)
  University of Manitoba Computer Services
 "My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer."
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: matthews@ecfa.jsc.nasa.gov (Michael C. Matthews)
Subject: Re: More Marketing Malarkey(LONG) (Was: Mike Slade)
Reply-To: matthews@ial7.jsc.nasa.gov
Organization: NASA/JSC Engineering Computation Facility
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 16:11:47 GMT

In article <Dec.11.01.47.39.1992.17798@gandalf.rutgers.edu> szatrows@gandalf.rutgers.edu (John Kheit) writes:
>
>	Anyway, what did you expect me to say... something bad about
>Steve Jobs?  No way, I love the guy.  I think everything good and
>innovative in the computer industry (just about) in some way is a
>result of something he has done.  When everyone else is out making
>compromises and just trying to get the big ole piece of market share
>(ala Microsoft & Bill [I will dominate you] Gates) he has taken the
>burdon of being creative and pushing the industry forward onto his
>sholders.
>
Feh.

Steve Jobs is a marketer.  Bill Gates is an engineer.

Any questions?

--
Mike Matthews, ex-Tether Dude +------------->   matthews@ial7.jsc.nasa.gov
"Had the Shuttle on a String"  \_ Now accepting NeXTMail via KlugeNet(TM)!
Lockheed-ESC                  |  
Houston, TX                   |          *** WILL HACK FOR FOOD ***
From: alex@cs.umd.edu (Alex Blakemore)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Publish giving NeXT the silent treatment
Date: 19 Dec 92 22:21:27 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, Dept. of Computer Science, Coll. Pk., MD 20742

I've been scanning the magazine Publish to see if the reviews or ads
would feature NeXT now that there are finally some entrants in this
important software marketplace.  Its rare to see any mention of NeXT there,
and it sure seems to be a natural place for the NeXT DTP companies to advertise.

The only mention of PasteUp, Compose in Color, and others were in the fine
print listing software packages under the category UNIX.  That's right.
Not only have they not heralded the arrival of DTP software on the NeXT -
(ok so its early still) - they implicitly describe NeXT as a generic UNIX machine
without acknowledging that it is certainly very different as far as
DTP goes. All of the DTP apps in the UNIX category run on NeXTSTEP and only NeXTSTEP.
Yet they divide the platforms into Mac, PC and UNIX in bold and mention NeXT
only in the fine print if at all.  I didnt see any mention of Virtuoso.

DTP is a natural market for NeXT and its software vendors, but it needs to
have a critical mass of DTP software (getting there finally) and *exposure*
within that community to succeed.  I dont expect Publish to slant their coverage toward NeXT, 
but only to be fair.  By not mentioning NeXT specifically as a category for
DTP software they imply that a. NeXT is not important. or b. its just like any
other Unix box for DTP.

Perhaps if the vendors contacted Publish they would change this policy, its
not a big thing for them and now there is a growing base of apps to list.
And I know you are typically small companies, but I for one would rather read
your ads in magazines other than NeXTWorld.  People who read NeXTWorld will find
you anyway, its the people who read Publish who need to be told about NeXT.
-- 
---------------------------------------------------
Alex Blakemore alex@cs.umd.edu   NeXT mail accepted
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