From: baldwin@csservera.scs.usna.navy.mil (J.D. Baldwin)
Newsgroups: misc.education
Subject: Re: Where the extra money goes.
Date: 18 Nov 92 17:32:20 GMT
Organization: Comp. Sci. Dep't., U.S. Naval Academy, Annapolis, MD
In-reply-to: solman@athena.mit.edu's message of 18 Nov 92 11:09:07 -0400

In article <1992Nov18.150907.20197@athena.mit.edu>
solman@athena.mit.edu (Jason W Solinsky) writes (quoting me):
>> I'm a big detractor of the inflated "support" costs of our educational
>> system, but I have to register mild disagreement with this statement.
>> "Half of all personnel costs to non-teachers" isn't specific enough to
>> address any real problem.  I suspect that some substantial portion of
>> the people labeled as "janitors" in the source that quoted the above
>> factoid are actually what might more accurately be called
>> "maintenance" employees, which are and ought to be in a different
>> category from "janitors."
>
>You combined two seperate tidbits of information that I had in the
>above paragraph.

I don't see this, but it's not really important.  You seem to re-state
it below, so I'll just respond to that.

>A) Almost half of all salaries go to non-teachers in urban areas. This
>includes anybody who doesn't teach including janitors, secretaries and
>non-teaching administrators, and probably a whole bunch of other
>categories. Reguardless of who is getting this money, 50% is simply
>outrageous.

I disagree that it is *necessarily* outrageous.  A system with a lot
of (old) buildings and (old) facilities and massive bureaucratic
"reporting" requirements might well need a lot of support personnel.
I'm in the "ed biz" myself, and I can attest to the fact that
sometimes reporting requirements and data collection requirements are
far beyond the control of the individual institution or even the
school system.

The situation might well *be* "outrageous."  (Warning: Personal bias
statement coming up here.)  From what I know about NYC and the way
things are run there, it very likely *is* outrageous.  But before my
blood begins to boil, I'm going to need much more specific information
about exactly who is getting what under this system.


>B) The janitors in NYC school are outrageously overpaid and criminally
>negligent as shown on 60 minutes.

a) "Overpaid" is a button word.  NYC is warped in a lot of ways, and
the local supply-demand curves for a lot of jobs is one of them.  What
do privately-employed "janitors" make, as a rule, in NYC and how does
that compare to the school system janitors?

b) And what category of employee is called a "janitor" in the "60
Minutes" analysis?  Did they include the guy who fixes the heating in
the winter?  That is a more skilled job requirement, but frequently
comes under the same category of employee as "janitors," thereby
skewing the results.

c) To put it charitably, "60 Minutes" doesn't have the most stellar
journalistic record for objectivity when the subject of their
reporting is an emotional one.  To put it uncharitably, they are a
crew of muckrakers who will distort any story, tell any lie, just to
increase the sensational impact of the story they are doing.  I'd take
anything I saw on "60 Minutes" with a grain of salt the size of the
Washington Monument.

d) Extrapolating from what goes on in NYC to a statement about "urban
areas" in America is a dangerous game.  Most things wrong with "urban
areas" in this country are at their worst in NYC, as well as some
things that aren't even *wrong* with the rest of "urban areas" in this
country.  I'm not sure that this is the kind of extrapolation you were
making when you made the statement in "A)" above, but it looks that
way.

Again, none of the above means there isn't genuine cause for outrage
about the way NYC manages and pays its school staff.  My own personal
biases against NYC are such that I'm *prepared* to believe nearly
anything evil about it.  (I'm of the saw-it-off-and-let-it-float-
out-to-sea persuasion on this subject.)  There's no question in my
mind that it's a fiscal rathole.  The most likely explanation for what
you have presented is that the public school janitors have powerful
union/mob affiliations and therefore strong political connections that
guarantee them this gravy train.  This would hardly make them unique
among groups of NYC public employees, and isn't indicative of any
particular "educational" problem, but of a far wider political problem
of graft and kickbacks.

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--
 From the catapult of:              |+| "If anyone disagrees with anything I
   _,_  J. D. Baldwin, Comp Sci Dept|+| say, I am quite prepared not only to
 _|70|___:::)=}-  U.S. Naval Academy|+| retract it, but also to deny under
 \      /   baldwin@usna.navy.mil   |+| oath that I ever said it." --T. Lehrer
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Newsgroups: misc.education