From: mst4298@zeus.tamu.edu (Mitchell S Todd)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: Re: How easy was the rifle shot?
Date: 12 Aug 92 19:46:00 GMT
Organization: Texas A&M University, College Station

In article <schuck.713431140@sfu.ca>, Bruce_Schuck@sfu.ca writes...
>Mitchell S Todd >>>  &   >
>Bruce Schuck >> & >>>>

>>>>>Did he manage 2 shots in the 1.6 seconds between the JFK throat shot
>>>>>and the Connally back shot?

>>>>	Connelly is clear that he heard a shot, turned to his
>>>>	left, and was turning back to face forward when another
>>>>	shot hit him.

>>>And Connally is just as clear that JFK was hit by the first shot
>>>and JC was hit at or around Zapruder frame 238.

>>	To begin with, Connelly beleives he was hit at about 231,
>>	not 238.

>I've never seen any testimony of Connally that says 231.

	It's in _Six Seconds_.


>>       Second, Connelly never saw JFK during the shooting,
>>	so he's just not a credible witness on the subject.

>Nellie Connally saw JFK reacting to his throat wound *before* John
>Connally was shot.

	By the time Nelly saw JFK, the Govenor's wounds were well out
	of alignment, and they never came into alignment again.
	
	Both the SBT and your latest offering require at the least that
	Connelly's chest and wrist wounds line up. After 227, at the
	latest Connelly's right hand is too far up and too far to the
	right for the wounds to line up. 
	

>>	For the Govenor to have been hit at 238 requires the 
>>	bullet be a very accomplished gymnast. Being dumb as a chunk
>>	of lead, I doubt it.

>For JC to have been hit by the same *bullet* requires gymnastics by
>either JC and JFK while hidden behind the sign or by the bullet.
>Neither happened and they weren't hit by the same bullet.

	Why not? The trajectory analysis done by the HSCA shows that
	a single track through both Connelly and the president is
	quite feasible. Connelly was sitting forwards and a bit to the
	left of the President. The HSCA determined that the President
	is leaning forwards by 11-18 degrees at Z190 (as Wilber notes,
	after this time the President leans forwards more as he disappears
	behind the sign). As Wecht notes, JFK is turned a bit to his
	right from 193 to the time he disappears. The angle between
	the TSBD's sixth floor and level ground is [Atan (62/195)]
	17.6deg, and Elm slopes downwards at about 3 degrees away from
	the depository. The entry wound in JFK's back is about 1 3/8in to
	the right of his midline, while the throat wound is just to
	the right of the midline. The trajectory through JFK, then, continues
	on into the body of John Connelly. As for Connelly, he is turned
	to the right to an even greater degree than JFK. Further, a
	slight backwards lean is a natural part of this extreme turning
	movement. Before 222 Connelly's right hand is on his left knee.
	His wounds are aligned at this time. After 227, they aren't.
	


>> Further, Connelly's testimony combined
>>	with the Z-film shows that the first bullet was fired
>>	prior to z-160. For the President to have been shot requires
>>	a mysterious extra shot that no one has ever reported.

>As I have said before, if there was only 3 shots and the there was a
>shot a 160 and it missed, then it must be the shot that hit James T
>Tague near the triple underpass. Since such a shot requires Oswald to
>have missed high by at least 30 feet [probably more] and to the right
>by over 25 feet, it is impossible for there to be a missed shot at
>z-160. It is more than likely that there was a shot at z-189 which hit
>JFK, and for which there is a lot more proof, and a 4th shot that
>wounded Tague.

	To begin with, no one is really sure just what happened to 	
	james Tague, or when it happened. The first bullet could
	have hit the curb. A fragment from the first bullet could have
	hit Tague. a fragment from the third bullet could have hit
	Tague. There is even the possibility that Tague was wounded
	some other way.


>You've *never* offered any proof that there was a shot at 160.

	Like hell I haven't.

	As I've said before, Connelly testified that hye turned to his
	right just after hearing the first bullet. He does so after
	Z165 (according to the HSCA he suddenly turns his head right
	the left before turning right again). This means that the bullet
	was fired previously to this. Also, according to the HSCA,
	from about Z155 to Z165, a large number of bystanders stop
	what they're doing and suddenly start to look around.



>>>Again, let's look at the testimony of ...Abraham Zapruder.

>>>"I was shooting through a telephoto lens....and as it [the
>>>Presidential car] reached about -- I imagine it was around here -- I
>>>heard the first shot and I saw the President lean over and grab
>>>himself..."   [7H571]

>>>The meaning of Zapruders testimony is clear, JFK was shot before 205.

>>	Considering that Zapruder can't get a good fix on when the
>>	first shot was ("I imagine it was about here"?!), his testimony
>>	is not clear at all.

>Zapruder was pointing to a map of Dealey Plaza at the time. 'Here" was
>the location of the limousine. It's too bad the WC Counsel didn't want
>anyone to know exactly where Zapruder pointed, because he didn't ask for
>a verbal description. However, we know that if he saw JFK get hit, it
>occurred before 210. It could have occurred from 208 to 212, but we'll
>never know for sure because those frames were 'accidentally' destroyed.

	Actually, we don't really know how Zapruder saw JFK get hit.
	Further, we don't know the amount of time Zapruder is talking
	about. The "lean over and grab himself" part could be the
	three os so seconds between 160-225. Since Zapruder said only 
	that he ehard a shot, and then he saw JFK react, he could be
	describing a shot while JFK was hidden behind the sign 
	(unfortunately, Zapruder doesn't seem to have placed the
	JFK shot in context with his disappearence behind the sign.)

	Connelly makes it a little easier, because his testimony
	includes information describing his motions, and how his
	motions relate to the shots. With this, we can check
	Connelly's testimony against the Z-film. That really
	can't be done to Zapruder's testimony.
	


>>	However, people who have been injured in the ribs often 
>>	nurse their injuries by pulling their arm against their
>>	chest. I believe that the Govenor is already hit by 
>>	the time he is appearing from behind the sign, and
>>	that the movement of his right arm is indicative of that.
>>	It makes no sense otherwise.

>Connally is clearly hit when he involuntarily expells air from his
>lungs after being struck in the 5th rib.

	Is that involuntary? No one knows. Thompsen uses Shaw as
	a source, but Shaw is really only speculating; doctors 
	very rarely get to see film of people being shot. The
 	temporary cavity created by a bullet's passage creates
	a suction: air from Connelly's lungs would just as likely
	be sucked into the cavity as it would be pushed out of
	Connelly's mouth. Further, it would take a lot of air
	to open Connelly's jaw (it opens when his mouth opens on
	"the blow"), but most of the air would exit the Govenor's
	nose.
	
	Thompson also tried to use the downward dip of Connelly's
	shoulder to prove that Connelly was hit at 237. But consider
	the momentum. If the bullet loses 550ft/s through the
	Govenor's body, and Connelly's upper body (assume 40lbs) moves an
	average of 1 inch between 237 and 238, the momentum is (I'm
	leaving out the 1/2g factor, since it is common to both numbers):

	Momentum of Connelly's upper body:

		40lbs*1fr*18.3s/fr*1/12ft=  61 lb-s*2g
	
	Downward momentum of the bullet:

	     160gr
	------------   *  550ft/s * sin(27deg)= 5.7 lb-s*2g 
	   7000gr/lb

	That's quite a difference.


	Also, at anytime after 227 Connelly's wounds are out of
	alignment.


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