HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: phill@bohra.cpg.oz.au (Phill Solomon)
Subject: Re: Rovers
Organization: Computer Power Software
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 00:02:02 GMT

>One of the concerns I have is the image of Rovering.  I find that any
>negative event no matter how small detracts greatly from the image of
>Rovering whereas positive events do not have as great a impact as the
>negative events do.

One image problem we seem to have is that held by our Venturer leaders,
many I think believe that us Rovers are simply a bunch of drunks that
destroy the enviournment.

>To correct this the B.C./Yukon Provincial Roundtable is going to publish
>a Rover annual for B.C./Yukon.  This will be similar to high school annuals
>and will include crew pictures, pictures of events and articles on Rovering.
>We are hoping to have it so it covers July - June as a timeline, assembly in
>July and ditribution in Oct at the latest.  It would then be sold to Rovers
>and copies would be given to Provincial and National Councils to demonstrate
>what is occuring in B.C. Rovering.

>Does anyone else do a similar project?

Attached to our BRC (Branch Rover Council) is a subcommittee called PROVER
(PR for Rovers) they produce and maintain promotional aids for Victorian
Rovers. They also have what is known as RAT teams (Rover Awarness Trainning) 
whos mission includes giving sessions on Rovers at Leader trainning courses
such as stage 3 and 4.

I thinks thats enough jargon for one day :-)


Yours in Scouting,

Phill Solomon
Secretary - Council for Yarra Battman Area Rovers
Activities - Yehudi Rover Crew
3rd Doncaster West Scout Group.

>Jason Farmer
>11th Sur-Del "Errant Knights" Rover Crew


-- 
Phill Solomon.                              ACSnet : phill@bohra.cpg.oz.au
TODAY IR&D                                  UUCP   : uunet!munnari!bohra!phill
CP Software Export Pty Ltd. (ACN.006640133) FIDONET: 3:633/363 Swinestud 
Division of the Computer Power Group - Melbourne Australia Voice: +61 3 8230222
From: hunter@master.lds-az.loral.com (Bill Hunter)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: BOA
Date: 10 Nov 92 18:39:17 GMT
Followup-To: rec.scouting
Organization: Loral Defense Systems - Arizona

On the issue of District advancement personnel being involved in Troop BOR.

Though BSA may not require such particiaption, it is none the less a good
idea, even if on a sporadic basis.  This is a downside of very large
districts/councils.

They cannot maintain quality control.  Lets face facts.  EAch Troop is very
different on how demanding they are on the boys.  Some Troops follow the
letter of the Book, others follow the intent, others yet follow their
heart.

More consistency and quality would do no harm to the national program.

Bill Hunter
Scoutmaster, The Vertical Edge
Loral Defense Systems - Arizona
1300 S. Litchfield Rd.
Goodyear, AZ  85338
PH 602 925 7929  Fax 602 925 6988
From: anthropo@carina.unm.edu (Dominick V. Zurlo)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Parent choice, not mandates (was: Gays miss...)
Date: 5 Nov 92 17:22:18 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

In article <13876@pogo.wv.tek.com> rickcl@pogo.wv.tek.com (Rick Clements) writes:
>In article <1d4sm6INN52g@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> Paul_Parry@brown.edu writes:
>
>>Mr. Ellis has just given the best argument against the BSA policy. The
>>kparents, through the unit committee and chartered org, should be allowed
>>to choose their children's leader. The policeman in San Diego
>>was ousted from his role in the explorer post because of a BSA mandate --
>>the parents' opinions were moot.
>
>The problem is the parents' choise isn't defendable in court.  With that policy
>someone will take the BSA (not the unit) to court and say you are inconsistant.
>The courts will say since you let a gay man be a leader in that unit, you have
>to let a gay man be a leader in this unit.  In this case, the parents will get
>to choose; they will pull their boys out of the unit.
 Well, that' is easy to handle, make it the BSA policy that allows for the 
troops to have the iscretion, then it would be the troops responsibility
to handle the situation.  
>
>Our society hasn't yet come to terms with the gay issue.  Two states had issues
>on the ballot to limit gay rights.  The news said the one in Colorado passed.
>I don't know much about the one in Colorado, but the one in Oregon, that didn't
>pass, defined homosexuality as wrong.  Their TV ads call it a life style that's
>wrong like taking drugs.
 
Yes, and the one in COlorado will most likely be shot down in the courts 
because it takes away rights already given in some counties and cities in
Co.  and there is a question on the legality of that.  But that's for the
lawyers. 
>
>Until our society comes to terms with this issue, don't expect BSA to make a 
>change.
 
I do expect the BSA to change.  HTe BSA teaches that it is making the Leaders
of the next generation.  It teaches that members should be in the 
forefront of leadershipa nd change.  SO, it should be leading in this fight 
as well.  Many of the people fighting for equal rights are or were 
Boy Scouts.  Society has come to terms with this issue and lost those
terms time and time again, and I'm sure it will continue that way for 
a long time to come.  The BSA is being called upon to be consistant 
with it's values and beliefs, to take up issue with bigotry and 
discrimination, and it is failing to do so.  It failed to do so on the 
behalf of it's adult leaders, and on behalf of it's boy members.  It
is time.  
Saying that the BSA doesn't need to deal with an issue until the rest of
society has is a cop out, and a bad one, and shows the cowardice extant
in the BSA regarding tese issues.  A Scout is......Brave.....  Stop
hiding and making excuses.  

WWW
Dominick V. Zurlo
Eagle Scout '87
blacklisted '88
>-- 
>Rick Clements (RickCl@pogo.WV.TEK.COM)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: jfarmer@fraser.sfu.ca (Jason Michael Farmer)
Subject: Re: Rovers
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 16:31:29 GMT

greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM writes:

>Adam,

>What and who are the Rovers?

>Greg

In Canada (I'll let people who are from other countries fill you in on Rovering
in their country), Rovering is a program for young men and women aged 18-26.
The motto of Rovering is SERVICE and to this end many Rovers are leaders in
younger sections.  Defining what is Rovering is the hard part.  In Canada,
most Rover crews are based on the knighthood theme.  Some crews specialize
as search & rescue volunteers, working with police, first aid crews, etc.  I
find it difficult to say exactly what Rovering is, other than the obvious.

Jason Farmer
11th Sur-Del "Errant Knights" Rover Crew



-- 
Jason Farmer                 |  Daisemi'in rhhaensuriuu
jfarmer@fraser.sfu.ca        |      meillunsiateve
Simon Fraser University      |           Rh'e Mnhei'sahe yie ahr'en:
Burnaby, British Columbia    |  
Canada                       |   Mnahe afw'ein qiuu;
                             |      rh'e hweithnaef
                             |           mrht Heis'he ehl'ein qiuu.

Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: jfarmer@fraser.sfu.ca (Jason Michael Farmer)
Subject: Re: Rovers
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 16:36:10 GMT

phill@bohra.cpg.oz.au (Phill Solomon) writes:

>G'day Jason,
>yes there are a few of us out here.
>How is the Rover movement in Canada ?
>  
>I am a member of Yehudi Rover Crew, we have around 10 members. The crew
>has been around since 1986, so we are young crew compared to others here
>in Melbourne Australia. 

>What does your squire trainning involve ?

>Yours in Scouting,

>Phill Solomon
>Secretary - Council for Yarra Battman Area Rovers
>Activities - Yehudi Rover Crew
>3rd Doncaster West Scout Group.

Our squireship is continued until we have completed the requirements as set
by the crew.  They include knowing and understanding the promise and motto,
the aims and principles of Rovering, attending two meetings of other crews,
attending two Roundtables, attending a scouting event such as a Cuboree and
rendering service, organizing a "successful" event (the emphasis here is more
on the organization and operation rather than whether or not the event went
well), plus some other 'fun' requirements.

Jason Farmer
11th Sur-Del "Errant Knights" Rover Crew


-- 
Jason Farmer                 |  Daisemi'in rhhaensuriuu
jfarmer@fraser.sfu.ca        |      meillunsiateve
Simon Fraser University      |           Rh'e Mnhei'sahe yie ahr'en:
Burnaby, British Columbia    |  
Canada                       |   Mnahe afw'ein qiuu;
                             |      rh'e hweithnaef
                             |           mrht Heis'he ehl'ein qiuu.
From: juan@hal.COM (John Thompson Reynolds)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: A Scout is Tolerant?
Date: 11 Nov 92 13:47:25 GMT
Organization: HaL Computer Systems, Inc.


Maybe we need a 13th point to the Scout Law?

Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly,
Curteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, 
Thrify, Brave, Clean, Reverent, 
and sometimes Tolerant?

One would have thought that Curteous and Kind would have
been enough, but apparently they aren't.
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: kadie@cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: Stan, Stan, Stan.....
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 15:26:47 GMT

kary@col.hp.com (Dan Kary) writes:

>While most people who use electronic media think of the media (like
>email) to be essentially the same thing as the non-electronic thing
>it replaces (i.e. postal mail).  The courts have not always agreed
>with this.

[Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer.]

The copyright law doesn't distinish between a letter on paper and one
on a computer media. There was once a question about if the law
covered computer programs, but now it does explicitly.

[...]
>The point I'm slowly getting to is that while you may wish that recipients
>of your email will treat it as confidential,
[...]

Copyright law has never required confidentiality. Instead it prohibits
things like copying and public performance beyond what is considered
"fair use". (I've heard lawyers says that a few short letters are
probably on the borderline of fair use.)

If you want the recipients of your email to treat it as confidential,
then don't send them any until they sign a nondisclosure agreement.

- Carl


-- 
Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
From: hunter@master.lds-az.loral.com (Bill Hunter)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Gays you miss the point.
Date: 5 Nov 92 16:25:45 GMT
Article-I.D.: 158.hunter-051192095247
Followup-To: rec.scouting
Organization: Loral Defense Systems - Arizona

In article <1992Nov3.195530.5506@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca>, smackinnon@mta.ca
wrote:
> 
> In article <1992Nov3.170807.3262@usl.edu>, mxc1059@usl.edu (Carroll Matthew) writes:
> >What about starting a gay boyscout troop?  Would that work?
> >:
> >
> 
No, get real, you can't determine if an 11 year old boy is gay or not. 
Bill Hunter
Scoutmaster, The Vertical Edge
From: bob.kenyon@freddy.ersys.edmonton.ab.ca (Bob Kenyon) 
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Anyone Out There?
Date: 11 Nov 92 17:37:00 GMT
Reply-To: bob.kenyon@freddy.ersys.edmonton.ab.ca (Bob Kenyon) 
Distribution: world
Organization: Freddy's Place BBS - Edmonton, AB - 403-456-4241

I'm trying to find out more about this conference, as to where it
originates, and what countries it has nodes in. Could foks please let me
know?

---
 . SLMR 2.1 . Bob Kenyon - Service Scouter, Edmonton, AB. Canada
From: bob@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Bob Foertsch)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: attention disorders
Keywords: roundtable attention disorders
Date: 12 Nov 92 14:54:20 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.BxLyqL.CJ0
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

a fellow scouter is roundtable commissioner for our district and has a son
who has an attention disorder and a patrol of attention disorder boys in his
troop. he is planning a roundtable presentation on the subject of attention
disorders and how leaders can help these special boys.

anyone with any experiences with attention disorders either post or reply
by mail and i'll see that he gets the info.

thanks

bob foertsch
eagle class of '67
webelos den leader

email to: bob-foertsch@uiuc.edu

-- 
 |	Bob Foertsch			|	Unix Systems Administrator    |
 |					|	University of Illinois        |
 |	bob-foertsch@uiuc.edu		|	1304 West Springfield         |
 |	(217) 333-8033			|	Urbana, Illinois   61801      |
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Attention Deficit - Hyperactivity Disorder
Date: 9 Nov 92 21:38:48 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: rocket.sw.stratus.com

In article <1992Nov9.175436.26858@adobe.com>, choffman@adobe.com (Charles Hoffman) writes:

> Many ADD and ADHD boys take drugs (Ritalin, etc)  to allow them to control
> their responses.  Parents try to give the boys their dose about 1/2 hour 
> before the meeting.  But in real life, this does not alway happen. 

If your meetings are on weekday evenings instead of on weekends, parents
will often skip entirely, since it interferes with the boy's getting to
sleep at night.
-- 

cdt@pdp.sw.stratus.com      --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
From: silk@mcl.ucsb.edu (ken mencher)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Coming Full Circle?
Date: 4 Nov 92 22:52:46 GMT

I am not ashamed to stand up (figuratively) and say that I support BSA's
current policy.  I respect Homosexuals, and Atheists, and agree that they
have their rights.  But, BSA is a *private* organization, and as such has
the right to set its own rules.  As such, if the leadership of scouting
wants to set the rules this way, so be it...we can complain, and if we feel
we can't do anything, we can leave...

However, I feel that Homosexuals and Atheists do not belong in the Scouting
that I grew up in!  Scouting puts forward a set of values listed in the
Oath and Law.  I see no reason why we should sacrifice these values.

just my $.0002 worth....

ken mencher
Eagle Class '90
T627, cypress, CA
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: Standards  (Was: More on God)
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 18:04:40 GMT

In article <1992Nov5.171513.14303@sei.cmu.edu> rsd@sei.cmu.edu (Richard S D'Ippolito) writes:
>>>..The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and
>>>the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the
>>>best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the
>>>growing members.
>> And people claim this isn't teaching bigotry?
>You sir, have not recently read the definition of "bigot".  Nowhere above is
>intolerance for diverging views presented.  ...

It is said that a particular diverging view (atheism) is an automatic
disqualifier from "the best type of citizenship".  This is bigotry.
--
"the bogosity in a field equals the bogosity imported from related areas, plus
the bogosity generated internally, minus the bogosity expelled or otherwise
disposed of."  -- K. Eric Drexler

Ken Arromdee (UUCP: ....!jhunix!arromdee; BITNET: arromdee@jhuvm;
     INTERNET: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)
From: keith@cco.caltech.edu (Keith Allan Schneider)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: Sad News - Green Bar Bill is dead
Date: 13 Nov 1992 08:43:33 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: punisher.caltech.edu

j_butler@ponil.enet.dec.com () writes:

>William "Green Bar Bill" Harcourt passed away November 9, 1992.
>He was 92 years old.

>May the Great Master of all Scouts...

Does anyone else find it ironic that GBB, perhaps the most well-known
and respected member of the Scouting organization since LBP, was gay?
Especially since all of the controversey of late over not letting gays
in the Scouts, etc.  Some people even say that LBP was gay...

If GBB was gay and could be a Scout, then why not others?  If he could
be a great leader, then why can others not follow in his footsteps?

What gives?

keith

Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: pads@ravel.udel.edu (Stephen J. Padbury)
Subject: Controversy vs. Program help
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 00:40:05 GMT

	I think a change should be made to the structure of this
news group, splitting it into two groups, possibly something like
rec.scouting.controversy and rec.scouting.programs or something
like that. It is probably going to be necessary because in case
people haven't noticed, the bandwidth has increased markedly of
late. Does anyone know how to start a change like this?
	Stephen J. Padbury
e-mail:pads@ravel.udel.edu
From: bk233@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jack W. Weinmann)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Sad News - Green Bar Bill is dead
Date: 11 Nov 1992 17:34:04 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bk233@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jack W. Weinmann)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc10.ins.cwru.edu



It is with great sorrow that I place the post that I received from a fellow
Scouter, along with my thoughts.  I got the opportunity to meet Bill and I
must say he was an impressive human being.  Scouting has lost a truly great
man.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

>
>  Green Bar Bill is no longer with us.  Bill was scheduled to be our
>  guest speaker at our lodge dinner.  However, we recieved word that
>  Bill passed on sometime this past weekend.  It is sad for me to
>  think of all the work that Bill had done for scouting, and to have
>  been kind of pushed aside in his final years.  Many of us still
>  thought that Bill had a lot to give to scouting, and that is why
>  he had been invited to our dinner.  I for one will miss his wisdom.
>
>
>                                             Don Izard, scouter
>

It is indeed sad that such a fine, caring human being has been lost.  Green
Bar Bill spoke at our annual Wood Badge Breakfast here in Greater Cleveland
Council last January.  He recounted his history in the Scouting movement
from his boyhood to the present time.  It was truly a fascinating talk.

I have met many great Scouters in the years that I have been in the
movement, but Bill was without a doubt the ultimate Scouter of our time.

I will propose to our council that we have a fitting tribute to Bill.
Possibly wearing black arm bands to honor one of our founding fathers of
the movement.

Bill will be missed by many of us who have had the pleasure to have met
him.  His dedication to the program was unsurpassed.  His influence
improved the program and the lives of millions of boys.  His energy, even
in his golden years, was phenomenal.  The man dearly loved this program and
it showed!

Bill was proof that one person has the power to change what needs changing,
to do what needs to be done, to speak up when it is necessary for the good
of the boys that we serve.  He was an example of what can be done if a
person has the drive, dedication, and the desire to keep pushing - even
when it seems that no one is listening.  And he had the wisdom to know when
to speak and when to listen.

He was a model of what a Scout is and should be.  He always "Did his best"
- and his best changed the lives of millions of people around the world.

His wisdom will be missed, but let us all see to it that his spirit lives on.

Jack
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: philipla@microsoft.com (Phil Lafornara)
Subject: Re: Coming Full Circle?
Date: 11 Nov 92 18:49:03 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

     Wow, Stan... you've hit an all time low with this one...


In article <1992Nov10.223855.1504@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:
>Tim Fogarty writes:
>
>The bottom lines on this whole discussion are-
>
>    1.	Homosexuality is immoral, and
>    2.  We have control over our behavior and the ability to know
>	right from wrong.
>
>The Scouting position on homosexuality is consistent with these
>points.

     I agree.  If you accept 1 and 2 as premises, then the BSA's
position is logically consisent.  I believe that we're questioning
the premises, not the application thereof.
     Can you supply some compelling argument for either of the
above?


>All this tells me is that there are organized groups who feel that
>there's nothing wrong with telling teenage boys that if they have
>feelings for members of the same sex, that it's "ok" and "normal".

     Instead of, say, telling them that they are "perverse, abnormal,
unnatural, and wrong"?  Your bigotry is showing through more than ever,
Stan.
     Let us take an analogy here - there was a place once where people
believed that Judaism was immoral.  Haven't we learned our lessons
yet?


>That is NOT the lesson that a responsible adult should be teaching
>to any child, and anybody who does so is nothing short of a child
>abuser.

    In my book, anyone preaching the kind of hate that you are had
no place around children.  I'm disappointed that the BSA turns away
gay men while still allowing raving bigots and homophobes access to
impressionable young minds.


>No, the point is more like there are 1000's of boys who, in a jungle
>environment, would seek out other males for sexual gratification.

     Ah - so you don't understand homosexuality at all.  Do you
_honestly_ think that millions of people would put themselves through
the kind of hell that gays in this country live in daily just for
"sexual gratification"?


>However we, as a specifies, have established standards of morality
>that governs our behavior, and among the standards that our society has
>established is that such a means of seeking sexual gratification is
>wrong.

     "All gays are promiscuous" seems to be your assertion here.
Provide some evidence for this claim or retract it.


>  No matter how our base animal instincts drive us, the fact
>is that we are in control of our own behavior (a lesson that religion
>teaches us; another positive attribute that Scouting is attempting to
>enforce), and Scouting expects it members to conform to the positive
>moral standards that our society has established.

     Stan, when were you appointed spokesman for society's "positive
moral standards" (which apparently include homophobia)?  Has someone
polled "society" to determine what those standards are?

					-Phil
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phil Lafornara         				1 Microsoft Way         
philipla@microsoft.com				Redmond, WA 98052-6399 
Note:  Microsoft doesn't even _know_ that these are my opinions. So there.
From: doug.heaton@freddy.ersys.edmonton.ab.ca (Doug Heaton) 
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: PROGRAMS FROM OTTAWA
Date: 11 Nov 92 19:52:00 GMT
Reply-To: doug.heaton@freddy.ersys.edmonton.ab.ca (Doug Heaton) 
Distribution: world
Organization: Freddy's Place BBS - Edmonton, AB - 403-456-4241

I am trying to get hold of a copy of the scouting computer programs from
HQ in Ottawa. Can anyone help me find them? I understand that they are
available on a BBS somewhere.

Thanks.

Doug Heaton
Trainer, Edmonton Region
Edmonton, Alberta.
                
Newsgroups: rec.scouting