HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: urf@icl.se (Urban)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Finne and finl{ndare (Re: Where is Norway?)
Date: 11 Aug 92 05:59:52 GMT
Organization: None. On USENET I speak only for myself.

mjh@stekt.oulu.fi (Mauri Haikola) writes:

>In article <1992Aug10.125334.25337@sics.se> torkel@sics.se (Torkel Franzen) writes:

>> It's true that "finne"
>> seems to have been banned in the speech of radio or TV commentators, as
>> well as to a large degree in newspapers

>Any idea why they are afraid of that? 

As I was brought up, it was made very clear to me that those Finnish
citizens who are not Finnish speaking, did not like to be called
"finnar". Thus, if you use the word "finl{ndare", you never run the
risk of designating them something they aren't.
-- 
 Urban Fredriksson urf@icl.se (Or: n.g.u.fredriksson.swe2001@oasis.icl.co.uk)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun)
Subject: Re: Immigrants and employment
Reply-To: jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun)
Organization: SINTEF, Norwegian Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 14:18:28 GMT

In article <1992Aug21.124439.26039@kth.se>, tomas_e@LINK.Physchem.KTH.SE (Tomas Eriksson) writes:
|> 
|> Are you seriously saying that it's always the "stupid" (possibly also 
|> "evil" ?) economic/political system's fault when "wonderful concepts" 
|> don't work?


Did I ?
I didn't, and I didn't say evil, neither.


|> Have you considered the fact that the "stupid" *reality* 
|> could be the problem?


The reality is not given by some god or whatever - the "stupid"
economical system is one of the most important factors which shapes
the reality.


|> Of course, it would be nice if not a single person 
|> on earth would have to starve, or be housed inadequately and so on, no 
|> matter how the population expands, or the climate is, but it's fairly 
|> naive to label the economical/political system "stupid" just because 
|> this doesn't happen by snapping your fingers.
|> 


:-)

Can't we agree in that we should make it best possible - or do only you
(and maybe your family) count ?


|> Tomas
|> 
--
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jan Arne Fagertun, Research Engineer, SINTEF Division Thermodynamics|
| E-mail: Jan.A.Fagertun@termo.unit.no                                |
| Phone : +47 7 596890                            Fax  : +47 7 944513 |
| Mail  : SINTEF/Varmeteknikk, 7034 Trondheim, Norway                 |

Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: IMAGING.CLUB@OFFICE.WANG.COM ("Imaging Club")
Subject: Finnish newspaper in North America
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: 12 Aug 92 13:43:45 EST

To receive copies of the North American Finnish newspaper
RAIVAAJA, you can call them at (508) 343-3822.  This newspaper
is all in Finnish except for a page or two in English.

Their address:           RAIVAAJA
                         P.O. BOX 600
                         Fitchburg, MA
                         01420 USA

Their North American subscription rates are pretty inexpensive, but
I don't know what their rates are for Finland.

Michael.Willett@OFFICE.Wang.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: euafri@eua.ericsson.se (Fredrik.Ostman)
Subject: Re: Business (was Re: Immigrants and employment)
Organization: Ellemtel Telecom Systems Labs, Stockholm, Sweden
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 14:30:33 GMT

jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun) writes:
>euafri@eua.ericsson.se (Fredrik.Ostman) writes:
>|> There is aslo ample evidence that partly planned, partly state controlled,
>|> "mixed" economies don't work! This evidence is to be found in Norden.

>There is aslo ample evidence that liberalism don't work. These examples
>are for instance found in Latin / South America.

Liberalism in Latin America? Do you mean the peronists who spent all the
riches of Argentina :-S ?

Certainly the world is a horrible place, but the fact that capitalism
doesn't make it heaven on earth is no reason to implement socialism
which has proved to lead to hell -- even in small doses.
--
  ______                     _~
 (_/_ _  _  _/) _  . /)     / ) , _/)     _
__/ _/(_(/_(/__/(_/_/Z_    (_/_/)_/__/))_(I_/)_
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: EIVERSO@cms.cc.wayne.edu
Subject: Re: Germans drowning in Sweden
Organization: Wayne State University, C&IT
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 19:34:45 GMT

In article <1992Aug14.072416.1926@neptune.inf.ethz.ch>
qvortrup@inf.ethz.ch (Michael Qvortrup) writes:
 
...
>You also see the same kind of behaviour in the Swiss mountains in the
>skiing season, but there the culprits are often Scandinavians. They
>refuse to believe that Swiss, who have been skiing their whole life may
>be able to do things which a "one-week-a-year"-skier better left untried.
 
On a related note, when my family visited Reichenbach (sp?) Falls in
Switzerland, my brother decided it would be fun to run down
a trail on a very deep incline. My father shouted his name and the
disciplined little (9 yrs) kid stopped dead inches/centimeters
from the edge of a cliff overlooking the falls.
 
>I guess that it is the same thing in countries with jungles, desserts and
>the like. You will always find some fool tourist, who will dash headlong
>into the place without wondering why the natives tend to stay out of it.
 
Were used to the US where you often have guard-rails next to cliffs or other
potentially dangerous places. Which reminds me of a joke; the punchline
goes something like "here in Europe, we don't go walking off cliffs."
 
>Greetings,
>--Mike
 
--Eric
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: karttu@mits.mdata.fi (Antti Karttunen)
Subject: Pirates & Privateers (was Re: Vikings savages)
Organization: MITS, Helsinki, Finland
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 22:54:14 GMT

In article <9208071508.AA13122@nero.wustl.edu> dickhoff@NERO.WUSTL.EDU writes:
>
>
>Two questions.
>
>1) Is "Vikings" a code word for pirates who once plundered on the
>   North Sea ?
>
>2) Is pirate a criminal in the perspective of Western Civilization ?
>

Depends who he was working for. Actually, many of the 'pirates' were infact
privateers, i.e. pirates who had license from their king/queen to capture
the enemy ships. For example, when Spaniards were shipping all the gold
from the New world to Spain, they were in turn robbed mainly by French and
British privateers. Also some Dutch ones, like admiral Pieter Heyn. 
Sir Francis Drake, who is maybe more known as explorer and for defeating
the Invincible Armada of Spain, was also working as privateer for the
British.

Source: John Gilbert: "Merirosvoja ja kaappareita", Weilin+G||s, original
English name: "Pirates and Buccaneers", published by Western Publishing
Company, Inc. and Les Editions des Deux Coqs d'Or.

PS. Does anybody know has there been any real pirates on Baltic Sea?
I only know this old Finnish ballad called "Rosvo-Roope", but I doubt
its value as evidence. ;-)

>-------------
>
>T.T.Wu

-- 
Antti Karttunen       --  $B%"%s%C%F%#!!%+%k%C%H%%%M%s(J  (et{ty|t|n)
karttu@mits.mdata.fi  --  Apatheist, although not particularly proud of it.
From: Eric_S_Klien@cup.portal.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Electronic Matchmaker
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 01:29:41 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world

Nordic women, having a problem finding a Nordic man?  I am about to 
launch a free electronic matching service on Usenet.  Thanks to the 
imbalance of men to women on Usenet, more guys than gals have 
expressed an interest so far.  If you would like to see the fifth 
draft of my questionnaire so we can alter it to also fit women's 
needs as well as men's, either send me mail or look at the copy I 
posted in alt.personals.  
 
This service is serious and I already have 310 men and 174 women
signed up so far.  The site of the service has already been selected
and programming is nearly completed.
 
I should point out that this questionnaire really, really, really,
needs some more input on CULTURES.  I need some questions to make
sure that matches are compatible culturally.
 
                                                          Eric Klien
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: petrus@stacken.kth.se (Lars Petrus)
Subject: Re: Business (was Re: Immigrants and employment)
Organization: Stacken Computer Club, Stockholm, Sweden
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 10:51:21 GMT

In article jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun) writes:
>
>I could, of course, answer your remark about Russia by pointing to a
>lot of anti-"communist" countries in Asia and South America (maybe even
>to parts of God's own ...), but I think this kind of discussion will be
>a little too stupid.

   In the days of the cold war, that a country was "anti-communist" meant
little more than that the local Mussolini had sold his country to Uncle
Sam - just as it being socialist meant no more than that Uncle Ivan was 
the highest bidder.

   If you look at these countries seriously, they are classic command-and-
control style economies, wiht huge and corrupt state enterprises controling
large parts of the economy. Normally you can not start any kind of company
without a government licence (and the man issuing the licence wants a bribe),
both import and export is heavily regulated etc etc.

   It should be clear to everyone that pointing to these countries failures
can not be used as an argument aginst free markets - since they do not
have free markets! Yet this point is constantly made. In a similar manner
the huge starvation catastrophes in socialistic countries in Africa is
often used as an argument against the evil capitalism! Pretty amazing!


  -  -  -  -
Wise Quote: "You want to know how to paint a perfect painting? It's easy. 
Make yourself perfect and then just paint naturally. That's the way all the 
experts do it." - Robert M Pirsig in ZATAOMM.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: jensen@adobe.com (Freddy Jensen)
Subject: Stanford/Scancor Symposium Invitation
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated, Mountain View
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 11:55:59 GMT

I tried posting this yesterday, but it didn't seem to make it.
Here we go again,




                   Stanford/Scancor Symposium

"Scandinavian-Californian technology-based business opportunities
            combining the best of both worlds to meet
                today's global market challenge"

                 Stanford University, California
                     September 22 - 24, 1992

The symposium will focus on technology based, strategic alliances
with companies in Scandinavia and the Western states of the USA.

The symposium is jointly arranged by Scancor (Scandinavian
Consortium for Organizational Research) at Stanford University, the
Danish Industrial Attache, the Norwegian Industrial Attache, the
Swedish Attaches for Science and Technology, the Norwegian Trade
Council and the Royal Norwegian Consulate General in San Francisco.

The intention of the symposium is to:

  *  Provide information on how to establish strategic alliances
     between companies from Scandinavia and California

  *  Focus on company cultural differences in strategic alliances

  *  Point out advantages in networking between industry people
     from Scandinavia and California

  *  Make companies and technology centers in the Western states
     of the USA aware of the opportunities existing in
     Scandinavia

  *  Make companies and technology centers in Scandinavia aware
     of the opportunities existing in the Western states of the
     USA

The invitation will be send to potential fellow players in
Scandinavia and the Western states of USA. The symposium program
aim to stimulate a discussion on strategic alliances and other
forms of cooperation.

The price for the symposium is USD 1000 exclusive of travel
expenses. The price is inclusive of local transport, hotel, meals
and symposium fee, based on staying at Stanford University from
September 21 - 24, 1992.

For additional information on the symposium or for attending,
please contact:

Royal Danish Consulate General
3440 Wilshire Blvd., Suite 904
Los Angeles, California 90010, USA

Telephone +1-213-387-4277 ~ Telefax +1-213-387-9456
From: urf@icl.se (Urban)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Finne and finl{ndare (Re: Where is Norway?)
Date: 11 Aug 92 09:55:45 GMT
Organization: None. On USENET I speak only for myself.

ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:

>I would like to know what the swedes would like if in Finland first
>in burocratical use and later in common use the Swedes were given an
>other nationality than they are for instance Swedelanders (ruotsinmaalainen)
>regardless he/she is a swede (lanttu).
>Jarmo

If it from the circumstances is clear that I'm a Swedish citizen, but
my ethnicity is unknown/undefined, I'd say it would be OK by me.
I predict this will happen within my lifetime.

torkel@sics.se (Torkel Franzen) writes:

>In article <1992Aug10.221820.18795@corax.udac.uu.se> pem@Minsk.DoCS.UU.SE 
>(Per-Erik Martin) writes:
>
>   >I think the media is perfectly correct when using the term "finl{ndare". I
>   >never use "finne" unless I mean a finnish speaking finl{ndare.
>
>  I don't quite follow you. Why is it correct to say "finl{ndarna"
>instead of "finnarna" e.g. in an ice hockey commentary? Is it
>"incorrect" to say "finnarna", and if so, why, and when did it
>become "incorrect"?

I'm old enough to remember when ice-hockey commentators said
"Ryssarna" (Russians) about the Soviet team, and the complaints
the Swedish broadcasting service got from listeners who remarked
that: "Hey, they're not all Russians; some are Ukrainians, Byelo-
russians &c", which made them change to calling the team "Sovjeterna"
(Soviets).

Now, we have the same problem with Russia. We can't call the citizens
"Ryssar", as many of them aren't Russians at all. Instead the word
is (or will likely be) "Ryssl{ndarna", denoting citizenship, but not
ethnic group.

The citizens of Chechoslovakia (while it lasts) aren't all Chechs,
some are Slovakians and Silesians, so we can't call them all "Tjecker",
can we.

Even if there are no Finnish Swedes on the ice-hockey team, they
represent the 10% Finnish citizens who are _not_ "finnar"; thus
"finl{ndare".
-- 
 Urban Fredriksson urf@icl.se (Or: n.g.u.fredriksson.swe2001@oasis.icl.co.uk)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun)
Subject: Re: nationalism, Finns, Chinese, etc.
Keywords: none
Reply-To: jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun)
Organization: SINTEF, Norwegian Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 92 06:39:13 GMT

In article <sooz.713721888@vincent1.iastate.edu>, sooz@iastate.edu (Susan F Bradley) writes:
|> 
|> Excuse me, but NEITHER Mats Winberg nor I had, IN ANY WAY implied that race
|> had anything to do with it 
|> 
|> (deleted)
|>
|>     Mr. Fagertun, your charge of racism is presumptuous and you were judging
|> where you have no right to do so.
|> 
|> Harrrumph!
|> 
|> Susan Bradley
|> sooz@iastate.edu
|> 
--


I'm deeply sorry - I was not aiming my verbal gun at you or Mats
Winberg. I had no specific reason to do so.

My article was aiming at many people in Norway (and surely in the other
western countries) who mean that we cannot allow people from Asia,
Africa and southern America come freely to us, because they aren't like
us, they eat strange food (well, we love chinese food, but...), they
make noise, and so on.

And at people who mean that we have let too many foreigners into
Norway, therefore we have to close our border. Strangely enough, the
only closed borders seems to be those between Norway and countries with
coloured inhabitants. These people usually don't know that these groups
are only minorities among the immigrants... But we are no racists, oh
no !


And to Mats Winberg :

Yes, I'm willing to let 4 millions Africans into Norway. After all,
letting them live in Norway is better than letting them starve to death
in Africa. Huh ?

And I am not scared of them completely change the demography of Norway.
Can't see anything wrong in it.


+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jan Arne Fagertun, Research Engineer, SINTEF Division Thermodynamics|
| E-mail: Jan.A.Fagertun@termo.unit.no                                |
| Phone : +47 7 596890                            Fax  : +47 7 944513 |
| Mail  : SINTEF/Varmeteknikk, 7034 Trondheim, Norway                 |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun)
Subject: Socialism (Was Re: Business)
Reply-To: jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun)
Organization: SINTEF, Norwegian Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 14:29:29 GMT

In article <1992Aug21.114717.25337@kth.se>, tomas_e@LINK.Physchem.KTH.SE (Tomas Eriksson) writes:
|> 
|> It looks like you're trying to avoid the discussion. If anyone in this 
|> discussion seems to be naive, I fear it's you. Mind you, I don't think
|> it's wrong to be naive, but it's good to know when it's better to keep 
|> your opinions and comments to yourself... :-)


I'm not afraid of discussing socialism/capitalism.... with anybody.
What I'm tired of is that all discussion is drowned in the
"Soviet-ghost" lake. It seems like some people don't want to discuss
issues like "Immigrants and employment" (the origin of this war), and
instead, in desperation, just answers "The people of Soviet has thrown
communism out - that's the ultimate proof of how bad communism is".

And if I try to discuss socialism they answer "The people of Soviet has
throwncommunism out - that's the ultimate proof of how bad communism /
socialism is", without being willing to discuss what socialism /
communism is. It's just like saying "Look at dictatorship X - their
dictator says their country is democratic - that's the ultimate proof
of how bad democracy is." (For the record - I didn't say that, I didn't
mean that - I just rewrote the sentence above, with some minor
changes.)


|> 
|> Do you deny that the *ownership of the means of production* is the most 
|> informative variable, when it comes to finding out if a country is 
|> socialistic? If that is the case, you've apparently thrown Dr. Karl Marx 
|> overboard, and then it would be nice if you could tell us just what you 
|> mean when you say "socialism/communism". And I hope you don't try to 
|> deny that the means of production the Soviet Union *were* under state 
|> (or public or whatever you want to call it) control, which, using what 
|> Marx taught, makes ex-SU a socialist state.
|> 
|> Tomas
|> 
--


I don't deny that the ownership of the means of production is the
mostinformative variable, when it comes to finding out if a country
is socialistic. But that's not the whole truth.

What about a pre-capitalistic country, in which the king ("the state")
own all ?


+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jan Arne Fagertun, Research Engineer, SINTEF Division Thermodynamics|
| E-mail: Jan.A.Fagertun@termo.unit.no                                |
| Phone : +47 7 596890                            Fax  : +47 7 944513 |
| Mail  : SINTEF/Varmeteknikk, 7034 Trondheim, Norway                 |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: ksavolai@tnclus.tele.nokia.fi
Subject: Re: translation wanted
Organization: Nokia Telecommunications.
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 14:53:03 GMT

> 
> Exactly what 'nameday' means I don't really know. Probably a remnant from
> a belief that each deity/saint had their own day or some such.
> 
> Reidar
> --
> Correct spelling is a lossed art.   |Hagar: So if people ask you, tell them
> Skydivers have more fun than people.|              you're a viking.
> ------------------------------------|Frode: And a Norwegian?
> radar@cs.kl.ac.uk                   |Hagar: Nah. That might sound like bragging.


In Finnish calendar every single day is dedicated for someones name. Only
first of January is date that's nobodys nameday. Have any other countries
that kind of namedays? (according to previous text it seems that there's 
namedays also in Norway).

...........................................................................
: Kai Savolainen           :    e-mail: ksavolai@tnclus.tele.nokia.fi      :
: Nokia Telecommunications : "It's 100 miles to Chicago, we've got a full  :
: Helsinki                 :  tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's :
: Finland                  :  dark, and we're wearing sunglasses."         :
:                          :        --Elwood Blues                         :
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: richardt@ifi.uio.no (richard)
Subject: Re: Whale Research
Organization: IFI, Norway
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 15:30:09 GMT
Originator: richardt@slembe.ifi.uio.no


It was never my intention  that my inquiry will  start a flame war.  And
I hope that it does not happen.  All I wanted to know was what
the researh was for, i.e. what the researchers hope to find out - scientific
results.  So, there is no need to be defensive or to be upset about
my inquiry.  
I thought that any research on  whales should
be done in an international collaboration of researchers so that less
whales will be 'slayed' for research purposes esp. when some types
of whale species are endangered.
I would like to thank those who gave  straight and  educational follow-ups
such as those by Gisle and Svein Ivar.
This posting ends my query about whale research. 
richard

Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun)
Subject: Re: Immigrants and employment
Reply-To: jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun)
Organization: SINTEF, Norwegian Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 14:06:38 GMT

In article <0I05JON@mailgzrz.tu-berlin.de>, bzfstoer@ZIB-Berlin.DE (Mechthild Stoer) writes:
|> 
|> You're right, that's exactly what I wrote:
|> that the economical/political system 
|> is not capable or willing to handle these problems.
|> You also wrote that the system is stupid.
|> Well, do you have any better suggestions
|> how to put your idea to work?
|> (I do not imply that the idea is bad. 
|> It's interesting, but probably it does not work.)
|> 
|> Mechthild Stoer
--


Your question requires a LOOONG (very LOOOOOOOONG :-) answer.
Even if I was able to write it (and that the system (computers, nets
and so on) could handle it), I don't think many would even try to read
it (gasp.... :-).

But in (very) short terms - I want an economical/political system in
which you (and the starving african) count as human beings - not only
as potential consumers.


+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jan Arne Fagertun, Research Engineer, SINTEF Division Thermodynamics|
| E-mail: Jan.A.Fagertun@termo.unit.no                                |
| Phone : +47 7 596890                            Fax  : +47 7 944513 |
| Mail  : SINTEF/Varmeteknikk, 7034 Trondheim, Norway                 |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+