From: roberts@gaul.csd.uwo.ca (Eric Roberts)
Subject: Re: Why? (was Re: THE MIND OF THE BIBLE BELIEVER)
Organization: Computer Science Dept., Univ. of Western Ontario, London, Canada
Distribution: world,public
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 05:00:42 GMT

In article <C0I3v7.82E@acsu.buffalo.edu> v22964qs@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Mike Cluff) writes:
>In article <1993Jan7.174800.9003@ra.royalroads.ca>, mlee@post.RoyalRoads.ca (Malcolm Lee) writes...
>
>>Without free will, we are just robots.  God already has the angels to do His
>>every whim.  God intended much more for us.  We were meant to be His companions
>>for eternity.  Could you live an eternity with someone who didn't want to be
>>with you?  He wanted [here my editor truncated the rest -- please use carriage
> returns]
>
>I don't think you're getting my point.  Imagine that you're God and that you're
>about to create the universe.  Now assume that "we were meant to be his
>companions" as you claim above.  Then why didn't he create only those who would
>eventually "choose" to worship him with their Free Will?  If you take your

If he created only those who would choose to be with him, those people would
not have a choice. 

>argument from a perspective of a potentially un-saved person, you just might 
>see this as unfair.  After all this God created us with a basically sensory/
>rational nature, and then supposedly appeals to us in nonsensory/nonrational
>ways.  From that perspective the whole thing seems like a cruel test.  "I'm 
>going to hide from you and them condemn you if you shun your senses and 
>accept me!"  Besides, if our souls do lie in the balance, why doesn't he 
>simply appeal to our senses?  Instead, this God sounds more like a child 
>rapping the glass of an ant farm to see which way they scurry.
>
This is not a cruel test at all. God told us what we are expected to do,
if we wished to be with Him; to do anything more would be to revoke our
free will. If He appealed to our senses, you would be intimidated by
Him and would no longer be able to choose freely. 

>>I don't think that it's so hard for people to believe that there is a God out
>>there who is loving and willing to accept them into Heaven.  Truth is, I think
>>people DON'T WANT to believe that there is a God.  
>
>My usual reaction to this claim is "speak for yourself."  How could you even 
>possibly know what I want?  I have wanted and prayed and even deluded myself
>in order to maintain a belief in God.  After several years, I realized how much
>mental and emotional effort I was going through to try to believe in God 
>against any evidence (not "proof" as much as evidence).  
>
>Also realize that the "you don't believe in God because you don't WANT to" is
>a double-edged sword, as the opposite could also be claimed to be true.  
>
>>The ramifications of the
>>existence of an omniscient being are beyond what most people are willing to
>>accept.  
>
>I don't know about most people.  I suspect that if you conducted a worldwide 
>poll, most would accept the notion of an omniscient being.  Besides, even
>if people *didn't* accept the ramifications, how would that be an argument for
>that being's existence?  
>
>>It is also contrary to what our modern society has ingrained upon us. 
>>We have been programmed by society to be self-reliant and wealthy, if at all
>>possible and at any c 
>
>I thought that was from the "Protestant Work Ethic."  Hmm.
>
>>Anyone can be humble.  For a Christian, it is a prerequisite.
>
>Frankly, many Christians I've known weren't humble in the least.  Not only that,
>I've seen many use it as a weapon -- "See, look how humble and virtuous I am!"
>without realizing that claiming humbleness requires a lack of humbleness.  
>
>******************************************************************************
>For God so loved the world that He gave Man Free Will and then got pissed when
>we didn't meet his arbitrary standards.  Oh, and he had his Son offed when he
>realized how impossible those standards were.  -- Michael 4:23
>******************************************************************************