HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: earp@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (J.Kevin Earp)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Publishing and Illustrators
Date: 27 Jan 93 19:40:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: magnus.1993Jan27.194000.2154
Organization: The Ohio State University

Recently a friend asked this question: She has two children's books
completed.  Would a publisher hire the illustrator and arrange for
the artwork, or should she do so.  

I suggested finding an illustrator willing to let the publisher 
decide whether to use the artwork, and pay them separately.  That
way the author would not have to shell out $$ to pay for artwork that
the publisher might not want to use.

My first manuscript only had one illustration necessary, that being a
map of the island where most of the action takes place.  I provided
photocopies of maps from a tourist flyer as examples.          

Any advice is appeciated.
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: marcy@sqwest.wimsey.bc.ca (Marcy Thompson)
Subject: Re: Indexing (was: *** Why is rewriting bad?)
Organization: SoftQuad Inc., Surrey, British Columbia, CANADA
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 18:17:54 GMT

In a recent misc.writing article, Thomas Beagle wrote (quoting me): 

>>We use SGML and our document structure includes index elements.
>>You can put them in as you go. ("Oh, I'm writing about error messages. That
>>should go into the index. BANG! There it is.")
>
>But when indexing as you go, how do you ensure that the index will be
>internally consistent?

Two ways:

  1. First, we have an informal standard for how we think index entries
     should be made. Essentially, it says "Index as much as possible, with
     as many headings as possible". (This is oversimplified, of course,
     but the idea is to give the user as many entries into the material
     as possible.)

     That means if I'm writing about the "Validate Document" command, I'll
     put in index tags for: Validate Document command, Special Menu commands
     (with a sub entry of Validate Document), SGML Parser (because that's
     what Validate really is), Error-checking (because that's what Validate
     does).

  2. Then in the first-printing edit stage, we standardize the entries. 
     This seems to come down to standardizing capitalization, mostly.

     It is very easy to find any entries that need to be changed, because
     the entries are (SGML jargon alert!) attributes to the index element
     and because (product plug alert!) the software has a powerful find
     function that lets me say "Find me the index element with the ENTRY
     attribute set to `Error-checking'".

>>I've worked in shops where the indexing was done by hand at the end of the
>>process. This is much, much better. Much better. 
>
>I can't help thinking that indexing by hand should be banned under the
>Geneva Convention. :-)

No argument here. I think it also contravenes the constitutional ban on
cruel and unusual punishment if you happen to be in the US. :-)

Marcy

-- 

Marcy Thompson		
  SoftQuad (West)			
    marcy@sqwest.wimsey.bc.ca (preferred) or marcy@sq.com
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: mapd1@syma.sussex.ac.uk (Nigel Ling)
Subject: cumming's poetry
Organization: University of Sussex
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 12:44:21 GMT


In article <1993Jan28.060001.15808@nuscc.nus.sg> tim@iss.nus.sg (Tim Poston) writes:
>behrens@cc.swarthmore.edu (Eric Behrens) writes:
>: Maybe it could do e e cummings, but a novel...  :Q)
>1) e e cummings did write a novel (The Enormous Room),
>   based on his prisoner of war experiences.
>2) he was one of the most `poetic' of poets,
>   using the lateral, more analogue than digital,
>   possibilities of English to the limit.

Eh? What the hell is the analogue as opposed to digital possibilities
of English??

Well, I'm no critic of poetry and haven't seen a great deal of
Cumming's work but he does seem
to do
an
aw
ful
l
o
t
ofthis
.

&Nigel\
From: aa794@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Pete Nofel)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Here's $10 and 2 weeks, do me some good tech writin'
Date: 22 Jan 1993 00:34:27 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: aa794@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Pete Nofel)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


Are there any other tech writers who read this SIG and reside on the bottom
on the food chain?
   I'm a senior tech writer for a NASA contractor and when it comes to pure
technical writing/editing, we're the last people called into a project.
Here's a perfect example:
   Our Space Experiments Division is preparing an experiment for a Get Away
Special on the shuttle. They're ready to ship to Kennedy, except NASA rules
say they must have documentation to go along with the experiment.
   Up trot three engineers (You can't teach me nothin', I's a engineer)
with a 200+ page document cobbled together from everyone's individual
documents. I'll quote this verbatim:
   "We put off the documentation because we could let that slip with the
least amount of pain."
   Now they want an edited document incorporating all contributor changes,
graphs, tables, and figures. They want automated paragraph numbering, an
automated table of contents, and an automated figure list. And they wanted
50 copies of it in three weeks. By the way, they hadn't gotten all of the
authorial changes yet. Oh yeah, you can only have 80 hours to do the job.
   We have a saying in our technical writing group: We're the people the
engineers call in when they've only got $10 and two weeks left in the
project.
   Now I've seen other tech writers on here talking about being valued
members of the team, involved from day one; they've been put on patent
applications; they've been given milk and honey; they've been succored in
their hours of need. I find these claims hard to swallow.
  Are we the only ones facing this kind of treatment?
-- 
Pete Nofel, aa794, primary sysop
It's a Mystery - The Mystery Literature Group
Cleveland Freenet, Cleveland Ohio
From: aa794@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Pete Nofel)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Mystery Literature SIG now open
Date: 25 Jan 1993 12:42:23 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: aa794@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Pete Nofel)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


   For those of you who are able to port into different bulletin board
systems (or if you are able to dial in), I, and my assistant sysops, have
started a SIG for those interested in the mystery genre.
   The SIG offers print and visual media reviews by users, discussion of
different types of mysteries (hardboiled, tea cozy, puzzle, locked room),
news about forthcoming books and films, advice on how to get your writing
into print, and a critique area so authors can post works for what we hope
is constructive criticism.
   We're located on the Cleveland Freenet system. From the main menu, type
"go arts" (w/o the quotes), then select #12.
   For dial-ins, the number is 216/368-3888. Enter as a visitor and follow
the directions in the previous 'graph.
-- 
Pete Nofel, aa794, primary sysop
It's a Mystery - The Mystery Literature Group
Cleveland Freenet, Cleveland Ohio
From: JTCHEW@lbl.gov (Ad absurdum per aspera)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Technical Writers Organizations
Followup-To: misc.writing
Date: 27 Jan 1993 20:13:44 GMT
Organization: Honest Ernie's Used Ions
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.252.153

> What organizations exist for technical writers?  Is the Society for Technical
> Communication the major one or are there others?

The STC is the largest and the most active at the local level.  It
puts out a professional magazine and several smaller newsletters.
its big event is an annual conference that attracts, as I recall,
something in the range of 1500-2000 participants.  There are also
regional (multistate) and area conferences under its purview. 

The IEEE has a Professional Communication Society; contact the new
membership chair, Dave McKown, at d.mckown@ieee.org for more info.
It's smaller and a bit more oriented towards the military-industrial
complex, whereas the STC feels as though it's dominated by the
computer industry.  They put out a refereed journal and have an
annual conference that attracts a few hundred people.

Disclaimer: I'm a member of both and speak officially for neither.

Joe
"Just another personal opinion from the People's Republic of Berkeley"
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: mapd1@syma.sussex.ac.uk (Nigel Ling)
Subject: Re: Not revising - with a twist
Organization: University of Sussex
Distribution: misc.writing
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 15:13:50 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.213705.6410@digi.lonestar.org> gpalo@digi.lonestar.org (Gerry Palo) writes:
>This idea of not rewriting is fascinating as a possible exercise.  I have
>had a couple of articles published, the first one two years ago, my first
>ever (at age 47).  It was an exhausting process and I worked on it and rewrote
>it multiple times.  I was very happy with the results and others, including
>the editor, said so too (it even got translated into German and published 
>in another magazine). But I realized that this was no way to run a railroad,
>and it really was a strain on my family for me to spend so much time in front
>of the word processor for such a long stretch.  Since then I have written a 
>couple more and got two published.  I still take too much time, but I am 
>improving.

Well, as far as I'm concerned rewriting is part and parcel of writing.
With practice you will probably find that your rewriting will not be
quite so extensive, but don't imagine for a minute that you will reach
the stage where a first draft is the best you can do. Writing is very
hard to do well. All the outstanding writers whose opinion I've read
say that they rewrite and rewrite. If one cannot be bothered to make
a piece as good as possible, one is liable to produce nothing but
rubbish - which may help explain why there is so much rubbish published.

>
>As far as using Heinlein's rule, I wonder if anyone has ever tried it, with
>the added twist that when you finish a piece, if it is not worth submitting,
>then throw it away and start something new - don't submit it at all.
>I admit this would be very hard to do, but the discipline might help one to
>improve one's overall skills and productivity.  I would think also that the
>act of throwing a piece away might help in detaching one's ego from the
>work, something I find very difficult to do. 

It is not uncommon for writers to abandon pieces, for all sorts of
reasons. Or they throw away the whole thing and start afresh. Highly
acclaimed writers do this. If something you produce is no good and you
feel you can do nothing with, it makes sense to throw it away and try
again.


Nigel
From: marks@iris.mincom.oz.au (Mark Stavar)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Being published ...
Date: 27 Jan 93 04:39:42 GMT
Organization: Mincom, Brisbane, Australia
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]

--

Assumimg that one has been successful at have a _book length_ work
accepted and published:

How many copies of the work would need to be sold before the book
might be considered a _commercial_ success, i.e., having covered the 
costs of publishing and perhaps even raised a profit, OR having sold
enough copies that the publisher would, all things being equal, be 
more open to the idea of publishing subsequent works by the same author?

Also, what are _typical_ rates, processes for remuneration of authors
of this type of publication ( books, novels, etc. ) ?  A once off 
purchase of the publishing rights, a royalty on a per copy sold basis ?
Something different ? All of the above ?

Any info gratefully accepted.

marks

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Stavar
Mincom Pty Ltd
Juliette St
Brisbane Q Aust

Email:	marks@iris.mincom.oz.au

Ph: +61 7 364 9999

#include	<std/disclaimer.h>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: lwall@netlabs.com (Larry Wall)
Subject: Re: Tyranny of the line (AGRIPPA-related)
Organization: NetLabs, Inc.
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 19:19:57 GMT

Whether you like hypertext depends on whether you think the artistic
decisions that don't matter do matter.

Larry Wall
lwall@netlabs.com
From: gberlowitz@hamp.hampshire.edu
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Writing Erotica
Date: 22 Jan 93 15:13:38 EDT
Organization: Hampshire College
Reply-To: post here or in%"gberlowitz@hamp.hampshire.edu"
NNTP-Posting-Host: hamp.hampshire.edu

hello,

i'm a fourth year student at hampshire college who is writing erotica (in
the form of drama, but i'm also interested in erotica within fiction and
poetry) for my division iii project (sort of like a senior thesis).  i
would love to communicate with other writers who write erotica, including
anyone who has published erotica, whether under the term of "porn" or
of "literature."

email me personally @  in%"gberlowitz@hamp.hampshire.edu" or post a reply
here.

thanks
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: tcmay@netcom.com (Timothy C. May)
Subject: Re: Work in Progress
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 08:48:53 GMT

Crawford Kilian (Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca) wrote:

: For what it's worth, I'm experimenting some more with Storyspace, a hypertext
: writing tool for the Mac, and using it as a muscular outliner. It's working
: pretty well.

I have Storyspace as well. I've been using MORE 3.0, from Symantec, as
a "mega-outliner," to keep characters, plots, locales, etc., all in a
large interconnected tree (the "cloning" feature of MORE allows
"active copies" to be scattered wherever they are needed...a kind of
hypertext wormhole).

If the new release of Storyspace fixes a few nagging bugs, I hope to
use it much more intensively.

: Would any Mac-using writers care to know how I use the machine for writing a
: novel? If so, I'll put together a list of tips; anyone who's got better
: methods, please let me (and everyone else!) know what you're doing.

Please, yes!

My 20 or more books on writing have little to say about using the
newest computer tools to write in new ways. (Those that don't write,
read books about how to write?)

Marc Stiegler wrote an SF novel, "David's Sling," largely in
HyperCard. A few years ago I showed him "ArchiText" (from a
now-defunct Brainpower, so it's no longer supported), which he thought
was a step up from HyperCard. And Storyspace is even more of a step
forward.

(Marc left the Bay Area, so I haven't had a chance to show him
Storyspace.)

I'd really like to hear more about Crawford Killian's experiences with
these tools. Perhaps he can cross-post to alt.hypertext as well?

--Tim May
-- 
..........................................................................
Timothy C. May         | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,  
tcmay@netcom.com       | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
408-688-5409           | knowledge, reputations, information markets, 
W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA  | black markets, collapse of governments.
Higher Power: 2^756839 | Public Key: waiting for the dust to settle.
From: kathyj@pyramid.COM (Kathy Johnson )
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: on self-editing and an intro. to fiction writing class
Date: 28 Jan 93 17:29:03 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Pyramid Technology Corporation, Mountain View, California

In article <1993Jan27.193617.13732@eos.arc.nasa.gov>, kyrsten@eos.arc.nasa.gov (Kyrsten Swazey) writes:
|> 
|> When i am critiquing an individual's story, i look for craft ("does this
|> story unfold in a typical manner and, if not, are the deviations
|> enhancing?" and the ilk).  However, i am also very conscious of word-
|> choice, grammar, spelling and all those nasty details.  Our instructor
|> has repeatedly stated that any editor (?) can clean these up
|> effortlessly.  Most people use word processors and have spell, if not
|> also grammar, checks.  
|> Does this reliance upon a computer or someone else hinder ones actual
|> talent as a writer?  I believe it does--what else is a writer but
|> someone who can express themself in the most immediate and touching way?
|> Are they not supposed to be the best at what they claim to do?
|> Am i looking at this in the wrong way?

At what point in the process is the class critiquing a story?  I think that when
a writer working on early drafts, it is good to focus on a particular group of
goals or problems rather than point out every single thing that is wrong with a
story.  This is like the training process you go through when learning to dance
or learning to play an instrument.  When a person first starts learning a new
skill or art form, they can only improve on pieces at a time.  Concentrating on
too many problem areas at once can be discouraging and counterproductive. 
Perhaps the teacher is attempting to keep the focus on particular problem areas
at this time?

|> 
|> -kyrsten
Organization: Masters student, English, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 14:47:42 -0500 
From: Brian Frumolt <bf23+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Why Rewriting isn't bad


As a writer, and as a student attending a masters program in
professional writing, I find it difficult to believe that some people
would reject the value of rewriting completely, rather than looking at
cases where it -might- not be of value.

Writing mirrors the thinking process closely -- to some, this may seem
obvious.  Expressing thoughts, as with thinking those same thoughts,
involves contemplation: what is it I want to say?  Did I achieve it? 
Might it be better related to someone (not being inside my head) if I
expressed it in a slightly (or dramatically) different way?

I don't write poetry.  If I did, though, I could imagine there being
times when I wanted to express a thought exactly as it had come to me,
in the hopes of simply mirroring the thought, and not relating it to
someone else.

In almost every other genre of writing, however, a general rule of thumb
for someone whose purpose is to -relate- the thought would be to
consider, above all, the audience.  This is most effectively done after
the thought is written.  Hence, the value of editing.

Most editors' jobs, if they can keep an overly personal view from
impeding upon their job, are to mirror that audience.  If it is unclear
to them, it will be unclear to others.  While this does not suggest that
writing which is crystal clear to the editor will be so to everyone
involved, it is nonetheless a starting point.

The bottom line, it seems to me, is whether you are considering a
writer-based or reader-based expression.  And in most cases, it also
seems to me, the intention is to create reader-based thoughts which can
be expressed most simply to people who did not have the original thought
in the unique way that the writer did.

As someone who is currently studying the effect of audience on the
writing process (or the lack of it), I'm surprised to hear so many
people express the opinion that rewriting is so useless.

I'd be interested to hear more opinions on the matter...hopefully, this
thread will continue...

Take it Easy,
Brian

Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian)
Subject: Re: Publishing
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 16:15:55 GMT

Treky and Tabatha ask:

Let's say that you have a short story that you have gotten to a point
where you want to publish it. Who do you go to?

Depends on the kind of story. For SF or fantasy, you go to the magazines and
maybe the editors of anthologies. Other genres have similar magazines, though
mystery and romance are the most available. For an experimental or mainstream
story, try the academic quarterlies and "little" magazines. Once in a great
while, a big magazine like the Atlantic will take fiction from an unknown
writer (they used to feature "Atlantic firsts"). Guess how often it happens;
then go spend the postage on a lottery ticket instead.


--
Crawford Kilian   Communications Department   Capilano College
North Vancouver BC Canada V7J 3H5
Usenet: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca
Internet: ckilian@first.etc.bc.ca
From: idpt199@tpts1.seed.net.tw (PC_USR)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: does anyone still have the FAQ?
Date: 27 Jan 1993 10:20:44 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu





DOES ANYONE STILL HAS THE "FAQ" ON MISC. WRITING. WOULD
APPRECIATE IF YOU WOULD SEND IT TO ME VIA EMAIL. THANK YOU!

Paul C. Y. Huang, Taipei



















Newsgroups: misc.writing,misc.kids,rec.arts.books
From: daj8m@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Deirdre A. Johnson)
Subject: Re: Question - what's the word for ...
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 19:38:00 GMT

Hi!  Another lurker comes out of the woodwork!  This is my first
posting to this group.  I've enjoyed reading other people's contributions,
but I've been too timid to say anything myself - until now!
I just have to answer Dave Daulton's question...

Yes, Dave!  The word is spoonerism.  Named for one Cardinal Spooner, a dean
at Oxford in the time of Queen Victoria, who was famous for mixing up
initial consonants of adjacent words.  For example:

1. (During a sermon) "What one of us has not harboured in his heart
    a half-warmed fish...?"

2. (When Queen Victoria came to visit) "Let's all stand up and give
    three cheers for the queer old dean!"

3. (Dressing down an un-studious student)  "Sir!  You have tasted two
    entire worms!  You have hissed all my mystery lectures and attempted
    to fight a liar in the quad!  You must leave Oxford by the next
    town drain!"

And those are all the spoonerisms I can think of offhand.  Hope you
like them!

                             -Deirdre (daj8m@Virginia.edu)

P.S.  I know my last example doesn't quite fit the definition I gave, but
      it is my all-time favorite - I just had to put it in!
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: janeric@control.lth.se (Jan Eric Larsson)
Subject: Is there a FAC?
Originator: janeric@bellman
Organization: Dept. Automatic Control, Lund Inst. of Technology, Sweden
Distribution: misc
Date: 26 Jan 93 13:00:43


Hi!

About publishing a novel: this has been discussed a lot, but I have
been a bit lazy in following. Thus I wonder:

Is there a FAC for misc.writing, where soem general ideas on
publishing have been collected?


Jan Eric Larsson                  JanEric@Control.LTH.Se      +46 46 108795
Department of Automatic Control
Lund Institute of Technology     "We watched the thermocouples dance to the
Box 118, S-221 00 LUND, Sweden    spirited tunes of a high frequency band."
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: mapd1@syma.sussex.ac.uk (Nigel Ling)
Subject: Re: Writing Erotica
Organization: University of Sussex
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 12:25:53 GMT

In article <1993Jan27.163418.23913@digi.lonestar.org> gpalo@digi.lonestar.org (Gerry Palo) writes:
[...]
>
>As for the literary quality of purely pornographic books, I
>heard from the instructor of a writing class I took that 
>almost all successful writers have written porn books, and
>most of those who don't command high royalties regularly
>do it.  These are those 175 page paperbacks for which they
>receive about $1,000 flat fee, which a seasoned writer can
>crank out in a week or so.  It comes in handy when the 
>rent is due.  Does anyone in this thread know whether this is
>true? 

Almost *all* successful writers have written porno books?
Well, I can imagine how that instructor defines successful
writers!

I'm not much interested in the difference between erotica and
porn, although I will say that books containing rude bits which
were written before explicit stuff became printable are more likely
to shape up to the label erotic, inasmuch as their authors
had to use art and subtlety to convey the sex.

Nigel