From: pwu@ai.mit.edu (Peng Wu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china,talk.politics.china
Subject: What is the problem? was: Chinese, Are You Jealous?
Date: 6 Nov 92 22:27:29
Organization: MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory
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In-reply-to: xlli@silver.ucs.indiana.edu's message of Fri, 6 Nov 1992 15:16:41 GMT

After following the lead for a while, I feel we can use a little bit more of
sincerity in discussions, in addition to logic, factual accuracy, and
thoughtfulness.  Winning an argument is gratifying, but there is more to
winning an argument.  In order to help me to make my point, I had the
following replay in place (spanning some 36 hour real time):

>>>>>> (xiao-lin li) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 03:10:18 GMT

As a Chinese, are you jealous to American who have voting right.
The huge country, however are only full of slaves whose fate
are in the hand of the non-consented few.

What a misery!

Shame on you, Chinese!

<<<<<< (Gang Li) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 13:40:14 GMT

If you don't have a mirror, here is raining outside.

>>>>>> (xiao-lin li) Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 15:18:55 GMT

I know I have hurt your ego as a Chinese, me too. We are equal.
I like to hurt my ego sometimes because I want to feel it. Honesty
is better than hiding weakness. Honesty is strength.

Tell me honestly, do you want to have a chance to vote. You may say 
you don't care, you have too much to do. You may say even you had
voting right, you might not use it. But do you want to have a
voting right as humanbeing?

If Chinese even don't have the desire for voting right, if Chinese
even don't have jealousy to others who have voting right, Shame
on you, Chinese! I mean it.

<<<<<< (Peng Wu) Date: 5 Nov 92 19:18:09

Mx Li Xiao-lin, you sounded as if you have no right to vote.  May I ask you a
personal question: how old are you?  If you are over 18, I think you have the
right to vote as well as to be elected under all the commonsensical assumptions.

>>>>>> (xiao-lin li) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 01:48:24 GMT

I am over 18, but I have never voted in my entire life for any one to 
government office,  neither in China, nor here. In China, we didn't have it. 
In here, I am not a citizen, plain and simple.

I asked you guys to tell me your voting experience. It sounds wonderful
to me. If your story is true, I will proudly tell others that I too,
have voting right, at least if I go back to China.

We humble people can do nothing, but to tell the truth. But I only
tell truth, no more and no less. If you believe you have truth, don't
feel insulted. Simply tell your story.

<<<<<<  (Eddie Cheng) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 02:32:53 GMT

	I don't understand what kind of stories that can convince you 
but I will give a try.  It is up to you to decide if it is true,
though.

	Back in 1980, I was not old enough to vote, but a big election
was going on.  In Peking University (Beida).  About two dozen candidates,
mostly students, were competing for two seats in HaiDian district. 
The campaign was as hot as it is here in US, although we did not have
as much money to spare.  (But we did have our own media, serious and
tabloid reporters, background checks and rumors, you name it...)
Since I was not eligible at the time, I tried to push as many older 
classmates to vote as I could.  

	Mr. Hu Ping, now a famous d-fighter in NYC, won the election,
based mainly on his now-famous essay "On the Freedom of Speach".
Wang Juntao and Zhang Wei, then President of Beida Student government
had a run-off for the second seat, but neither of them achieved
majority hence the second seat was unfilled.  Hu Ping was the sole
winner.  Wang played a radical role, denoucing Culture Revolution
and Mao, which proved to be too far ahead of time and costed his
chance.  But he ended up as one of the most respected candidates.
(Two other candidates in that election are now also in China Spring:
Ding Chu (Fan Zhiyuan) and Yu Dahai).

	Four years later in 1984, another big election came along on
schedule and I came to be old enough to vote.  But this time there
were very few people campaign for the seats and I was not happy
about it so I thought about not voting at all.  Unfortunately at
the time, the school authority was trying to make the voting
turn-out rate be higher than four years ago so there was a hush
effort to drive people to vote.  Our department party secretary
came to our dorm at 11:30pm, half an hour before the closing time,
to make a personal appeal for us to vote.  So we complied and
I showed him that I had voted a blank ticket (abstain).

	There had been other smaller elections then.  I came to US
in 1986.

	In 1988, another election year, Prof. Li Shuxian, wife of
the famous Prof. Fan Lizhi, won the same seat Hu Ping held.
This victory came shortly after Fan was oustered from CCP and
lost his official post at USTC.

>We humble people can do nothing, but to tell the truth. But I only
>tell truth, no more and no less. If you believe you have truth, don't
>feel insulted. Simply tell your story.

	Make sure you do have the truth before you tell, then.

    Eddie

>>>>>>  (xiao-lin li) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 15:16:41 GMT

>	Mr. Hu Ping, now a famous d-fighter in NYC, won the election,
>       ...

Very interesting story. Well, we have to look at the fate of all
these famous candidates. Hu Ping, as all of you know, is in exile,
probably in a refugee status. Wang Juntao is sure in jail. As to
Ding Chu and Yu Dahai, they too, do not have legal status in China.

I guess George Bush would have to prepare in QingCheng Jail if 
he were in China.

In 1957, people were very enthusiastic about the "freedom of speech"
they suddenly got. Hundreds of thousands foolish intellectuals
ended up in suicide, jail. Their career were finished, family
broken, children abused by the society. 

You forgot to mention that following the election of Hu Ping et al,
there had been some political movement too. To mention a few, the
so-called anti-spiritual pollution and anti-liberalization. Not
,to say the massacre and massive arrest in 1989.

>	In 1988, another election year, Prof. Li Shuxian, wife of
>       ...

You are certainly not defending the government, are you? Prof. Fang
Lizhi is now in Arizona University with his wife Li Shuxian.

Your story remind me too much. You are a good story teller.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china