HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gnome@pd.org (mike mitten)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: Yet another uplifting car-bike story
Date: 11 Nov 92 19:50:12 GMT
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

Well, I tried to mail this, but there's a busted mailer somwhere
(probably ours), so I'll just post:

In article <1992Nov11.150117.9704@walter.bellcore.com> is written:
>Jeez, my apologies.  I didn't consider the context of the accident when I
>created my sarcastic subject line.  I certainly did not mean for it to be
>funny.  It was an unfortunate coincidence, and a bad choice of the word
>"uplifting".  Again, my apologies to the readers.

I wouldn't worry about it if I were you.  net.readership seems to be very
sensitive these days.  Maybe it's the moon or something.

Thanks for the info, by the way.  As depressing as it can be, it's good
to be reminded of the dangers every now and again.  If you get more
details, like how the survivor is doing, and what sort of pathetic
traffic ticket the driver gets, please post.

  -Mike

Mike Mitten - gnome@pd.org - ...!emory!pd.org!gnome - DoD#522
Irony is the spice of life.
From: Lyle_Scheer@NeXT.com (Lyle Scheer)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: Honking
Date: 6 Nov 92 17:23:58 GMT
Reply-To: Lyle_Scheer@NeXT.com (Lyle Scheer)

In article <1992Nov3.203622.19702@emr1.emr.ca> woodgold@emr1.emr.ca (Cathy  
Woodgold) writes:
> No.  In my philosophy, A hurting B does not (by itself) justify B 
> hurting A.  I was pointing out that honking does harm.  The only
> conclusion I would draw from this is that people should be careful
> not to honk except when it's likely to do more good than harm.
> Others can and have drawn other conclusions based on their 
> philosophies.

Funny.  I thought cars generally honked just to let you know they were behind  
you.  In any case, I don't think there's anything we can do about it.

--
                             E-Mail (NeXTmail accepted): Lyle_Scheer@NeXT.com
                    "Character is what you are in the dark." -Buckaroo Banzai
"A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men." -Willy Wonka
From: apm@hpopd.pwd.hp.com (Andrew Merritt)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 09:28:38 GMT
Subject: Re: bicyclist SHOOTS attackers
Organization: Hewlett-Packard SSG/CCSY-PWD, UK.
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc

darose@cory.Berkeley.EDU (David Rose) writes:
>       The bicyclist took off on foot on Broadway, leaving his bicycle behind.
...
>Clearly this fellow was not in any sense a typical cyclist
From: casseres@apple.com (David Casseres)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: bicyclist SHOOTS attackers
Date: 13 Nov 92 18:40:46 GMT
Article-I.D.: missmoll.casseres-131192103747
Followup-To: rec.bicycles.soc
Organization: Apple Computer Inc.

In article <BxAwL5.B9v@cs.uiuc.edu>, ward@cs.uiuc.edu (Christ Ward) wrote:
> 
> Just a data point...I was talkin to a Biker (you know the motor
> driven sort) he was tellin me that in Az. (and mabey others)
> if a biker is packing he/she must pack it in full view (a true
> side arm).  Anyway, he loved to ride in Az. because he got ton's
> of respect on the road from the cagers.  He didn't say anything
> negative about it, but that's not to say there are no negatives.
> However, if cagers just thought we all had a 9mm Glock, we would 
> probably get more respect in general.  Just FYI.

Gee, what a really really bitchin idea.

I can just see the posts on rec.moron.fascists.pickup.trucks:

   "Yall may have hurd of this all readdy but the faggot bicickle
    Liberals are starting to pack guns.  So if one oneof them interfears
    with your Right to Drive Like an Asshole (RDLA) just be damn sure
    shoot him first befoar he can get his peice out of his stretch
    panties."

--

David Casseres
Exclaimer: Wow!
From: "Michael Smith" <p00004@psilink.com>
Subject: Re: Risk ratio (was: Ticketing illegal cycling)
Organization: Performance Systems Int'l
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 17:24:39 GMT
X-Mailer: PSILink (3.2)

>DATE:   6 Nov 1992 14:19:23 GMT
>FROM:   Joel Plutchak <plutchak@pilsner.geo.brown.edu>
>  [....]  How else to explain those
>who rabidly defend their right to break any and all traffic laws while
     ^-----^
>bicycling, yet expect other road users to comply?

Grrr. Damn froth keeps dripping on my handlebars.

--Michael "Mad Dog" Smith
From: marcs@slc.com (Marc San Soucie)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: Should lights be req. Std. Equipment?
Date: 12 Nov 92 03:05:41 GMT
Article-I.D.: slc.1992Nov12.030541.21329
Distribution: usa
Organization: Servio Corp, Beaverton Oregon, US

Steven Eugene Sergeant (SteveSgt@cup.portal.com) writes:

> 1.	NTSB* statistics show that one of the two most common causes
> 	of bicycle accidents is preventable by the provision of
> 	additional safety equipment on bicycles (lighting).  It is
> 	the right thing to do to make our favorite form of
> 	transportation safer.

My daytime bikes are already completely safe. Why should they be encumbered 
with more equipment?


> 	Please understand that I'm not advocating taking away your right to
> choose the kind of lighting you can get on your bike (even when you
> first buy it).

You're trying to insist that I buy some for every bike I buy.


> I'm just trying to make sure that people don't get
> caught out there on the road at night without it.

Nobody with half a brain rides at night without a light unless by accident.
People with less than half a brain don't replace their batteries when they
die, or don't fix their generators when they become useless. What then?

    Marc San Soucie
    Portland, Oregon
    marcs@slc.com
From: bob@cc.usu.edu (Bob Bayn)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: hand-cranked bike sources/donation
Date: 12 Nov 92 10:04:30 MDT
Organization: Utah State Univ

Ellen Fletcher writes under Dave Snyder's userid <davesnyder@igc.apc.org>:
> 
> Does anyone know of a source for a hand-cranked bike for the disabled? I've
> seen pictures of some in the past.
> 
> There's a disabled boy, about ten years old, who lives in my housing complex.
> His father, brother and sister ride bikes, and he watches them longingly.
> Once his dad sat him on the saddle of his bike and wheeled him around the
> parking lot, much to his delight. I thought I might look into raising funds
> to buy him a hand-cranked bike if I could find one.

This is such a heartwarming change from recent .bike.soc fare that I was 
near to tears.  If you find such a bike, Ellen, I'll kick in 10 bucks and
maybe a couple of other readers will, too.

-- 
Robert Bayn                  o                  Welcome to Cache Valley;
Office of Computer Services  \__^\=*    please set your chronometer back
Utah State University      (O)""""o            20 years and ten minutes.
From: elr@trintex.uucp (Ed Ravin)
Subject: Re: Ticketing illegal cycling
Organization: Why bike if it's so dangerous?
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 18:22:25 GMT

In article <27522@castle.ed.ac.uk> cam@castle.ed.ac.uk (Chris Malcolm) writes:

>On the basis of my own experience, and the police accident statistics,
>when I'm cycling I regard other cyclists as the most hazardous vehicles
>on the road.

Well, here we have it -- a good justificiation for banning cycling altogether --
After all, there's no other way to save bicycling if we don't.
-- 
Ed Ravin- elr@trintex.uucp| I like to think (and the sooner the better!)
  elr%trintex@uunet.uu.net| Of a cybernetic meadow where mammals and computers
           +1-914-993-4737| Live together in mutually programming harmony
my opinions, nobody else's| Like pure water touching clear sky.  -R. Brautigan
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: davevh@microsoft.com (Dave Van Horn)
Subject: Re: Ticketing illegal cycling
Date: 13 Nov 92 04:22:49 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

Robert Lewis writes:

>please give me the source for your statement that "Cracking down on 
>outlaws has been tried many times in many places, but I know of no place 
>where it has caused the hoped-for increase in legislative respect."  

Trying to upgrade the discussion from the dismal net standard, eh?  Cool!
Ok:  I saw 5 or 6 such campaigns in cities I was living in at the time, one
just this year, with no apparent subsequent change in attitudes by bikers, 
police, the legislature, drivers or the press.  I've had similar reports 
from netters in the Bay Area, Texas and Colorado.  

Ok, now it's your turn.  Please give me some counter-examples, instances
where a crackdown on bikers has resulted in long-term (ie, more
than a few months after the campaign ends) reductions in outlaw biker 
behavior, or increases in respect for bikers.  Of course I'm cheating -- 
you've already said you can't:

>'crack-downs' I have seen have been sporadic campaigns in which the main
>point has been to satisfy the complaints of motorists, none have been
>undertaken due to any concern for cyclists safety. 

Exactly!!  So what makes you think that exactly the same thing won't 
happen again, that the campaigns that the LAW et al push for won't be 
hijacked the same way again?  "This time for sure!", eh, Bullwinkle?

Once more, with feeling -- I would not object to increased enforcement of 
traffic laws on bikers AND motorists.  _BUT_ it has been my experience 
(and yours to, I gather) that the half of that agenda that benefits us 
always manages to get dropped, and only bikers wind up taking the blame 
and the tickets.  And that doesn't change anything.
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: kenl@origami.cc.bellcore.com (Ken Lehner)
Subject: Re: Yet another uplifting car-bike story
Keywords: my_mistake
Organization: Bellcore
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 15:01:17 GMT

In article <1dr3qlINNh7n@seven-up.East.Sun.COM>, jfox@hooksett.East.Sun.COM (John Fox - SunExpress IR) writes:
[my news article about a killed cyclist who was thrown]
|> 
|> Uplifting? Is this supposed to be funny? If so, you're sick.

Jeez, my apologies.  I didn't consider the context of the accident when I
created my sarcastic subject line.  I certainly did not mean for it to be
funny.  It was an unfortunate coincidence, and a bad choice of the word
"uplifting".  Again, my apologies to the readers.
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: kenl@origami.cc.bellcore.com (Ken Lehner)
Subject: Yet another uplifting car-bike story
Organization: Bellcore
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 21:16:38 GMT

From a friend, from the Asbury Park (NJ) Press:

Car hits 2 cyclists; 1 dies

Jackson Township (NJ) - A woman bicyclist was killed and her husband
injured yesterday afternoon when a car struck them from behind as they
rode along Bowman Road.

The 35-year-old northern NJ woman was thrown from her bicycle about
2:30 pm and landed on her back in the woods...
 
The woman's husband was knocked onto the windshield of the car, and
then flipped over its roof and into the woods, police said.  The car
traveled more than 200 feet, dragging a bicycle, after the crash,...
Organization: Freshman, MCS general, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Date: Thu,  5 Nov 1992 12:16:46 -0500 
From: "Curtis E. Bower" <cb4m+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: bicyclist SHOOTS attackers

Actually, where I  lived(d)  in North Carolina, I knew several cyclists
that did carry weapons.  They weren't small caliber either.  They were
rather large bore.  And in fact one of the guys I know has had it come
in handy for , shall we say, overly enthusiastic motorists.  Anyway,
carrying a weapon while riding has good aspects and negative ones.  If
we start carrying weapons, then people that harras us might start to
take more drastic actions other than just throwing stuff at us.  They
might see a gun strapped to your back then just say "Gosh, lets see if I
can hit him before he can shoot at me.  What fun!"  But I know a gun
might come in handy in cases like the one in the aricle.  Ah, who knows?
 
	Whatever, just some thoughts...


-Curt
A.K.A. Wolverine

______________________________________________________________
"Aw man!  Just as my coil was reaching the green line!"
						-Kaneda 
						(from 'Akira')
_______________________________________________________________
From: LAVERTU@MAINE.MAINE.EDU (Cheryl Lynn Lavertu)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
Subject: Re: Should lights be req. Std. Equipment?
Date: 6 Nov 92 18:05:35 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Maine System

I don't see how requiring a lighting system on all bicycles
is going to open up your choice of 6-speed, heavy fendered
model bicycles.   Also, your suggestion is taking away a person's
freedom to put his/her own home-brew lighting system on a bicycle
since you say the bicycles should come with lighting as standard
equipment.

What would happen if lights weren't required on motor vehicles?
You'd see a lot less cars at night, or the ones you did see
would have lights on them anyway.

We have laws on the books already that tell us (here in Maine, at
least) that if we are going to ride bicycles at night, they
must have a headlight and taillight.   I think that is enough
legislation.   Those who ride at night can spend the extra
$$ for a lighting system they need, and those who only ride
during the day can spend their money on things they need.

I commute by bicycle, and had no problem finding the perfect
commuter-style bicycle at my small local bike shop.

So I say, forget adding unnecessary legislation to the books
just so you can hope it will result in production of a model
of bicycle which you want but the majority of bicyclists
haven't asked for.    Well, you asked!

  "WORK TO EAT,                  Cheryl       ~~~O
       EAT TO LIVE,                             /\_,
         LIVE TO BIKE,                      ###-\
             BIKE TO WORK"                  (*) / (*)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: yozzo@watson.ibm.com (Ralph Yozzo)
Subject: Motorist takes bicyclist's life
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1992 04:07:11 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

This was a very sad news item that I thought would be of interest:

	BAYSHORE, N.Y. (UPI) -- A cyclist was struck and killed Saturday by a
vehicle driven by a young man later charged with drunk driving and
leaving the accident scene, Suffolk County police said.
	The driver, identified as Fabian Marroquin, 19, of 12 Deepdale Drive,
Brentwood, and a passenger were returning home from the Ques Queya in
Copaigue about 6 a.m. at the time of the fatal accident, police said.
	Heading north on Fifth Avenue near the Southern Parkway overpass,
Morroquin's 1987 Isuzu Trooper struck Donald Stewart, 23, who was riding
a bicycle to work, said Det. Paul Fuhrmann of Suffolk County's Third
Squad Detectives.
	The vehicle kept going but was followed by a witness to the accident,
Glenn Suarez, who stopped the driver and told him about the victim,
Fuhrmann said.
	Morroquin at first agreed to return to the accident scene but then
fled, the detective said.
	The witness notified police at the nearby Third Precinct who stopped
the suspect and arrested him.
	Stewart was pronounced dead at the scene by the Suffolk County
Medical Examiners office.
	Morroquin was charged with driving while intoxicated and leaving the
scene of a motor vehicle accident. He was to be arraigned in First
District Court Sunday.


-- 
 Ralph Yozzo (yozzo@watson.ibm.com)  
 From the beautiful and historic Mid-Hudson Valley area of NY state
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: tkirby@nyx.cs.du.edu (Thomas Kirby)
Subject: Re: Bikist Takes Revenge For a Change
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 92 19:17:14 GMT

qpliu@phoenix.princeton.edu writes:

>In article <1992Oct31.205931.25777@netcom.com> fiedler@netcom.com (Drago
 (David Fiedler)) writes:

>>Let's get this straight: you folks enjoy damaging other people's proper
y
>>just because they *honked* at you? 

>I have found that merely TOUCHING a car is enough to annoy those car
>worshippers who think the car has the right-of-way in situations when
>it does not.  At least, it is for those who honk.  Doing so could be
>an alternative to being destructive, unless there is some mystical
>property of the car that gets destroyed when it is touched by strange
>people.

>It's easier to do so as a pedestrian than as a cyclist though.
>Also, such car worshippers expose themselves as such when a
>pedestrian fails to scurry past a driveway that the sacred car
>must not be delayed from entering.
 -- 
     I use a moped, which Kansas law says is a "motorized bicycle".  I
have had numerous incidents with cars.  Sometimes I am at an intersection
waiting for traffic and the car behind me pulls close and honks.  Many
times a car has passed me so close I could feel the wind, and a few times
they have brushed my coat sleeve.  
 
     I have had to dodge cars that ran stop lights.  I have had to dodge
them when they came out of mall parking lots without signalling.  A couple
of weeks ago I wound up in someone's front yard because a driver did that,
and he only missed because I did go off the road.  This one is a bit
puzzling because my moped is canary yellow and hard to miss.
 
     A few of them repeat their mistakes.  There is the one blue van
driven by a foul-mouthed woman, that forced me off the road several times
last summer.  I have this fantasy of falling over into the ditch and
pretending she hit me.  Not so much to get back at her for forcing me off
the road, but to get back at her for cussing me when she does it.
 
     I empathize with anyone who feels helpless rage when a cager tried
to kill him.  They do it so casually, so contemptuously, and you can't get
the police to do anything about it unless you can show broken bones.  


>qpliu@princeton.edu           Standard opinion: Opinions are delta-corre
ated.

Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: yozzo@watson.ibm.com (Ralph Yozzo)
Subject: Re: Ticketing illegal cycling
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1992 03:03:29 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

In article <1992Nov1.081553.1618@netcom.com> tomk@netcom.com (Thomas H. Kunich) writes:
>In article <1992Oct30.185754.7199@SSD.intel.com> warton@ssd.intel.com (Peter Warton) writes:
>>
>>I believe that it could offer substantial threat to other motorists as well.
>>If I were driving through an intesection which a bicycle was crossing against
>>a red light, I would try my damndest *not* to kill him or her.  I could lose
>>control of my car, or be hit from behind or any number of other dangerous
>>things.  I realize this applies to the case where the biker crosses against 
>>the red 'stupidly', but to suppose this threat is limited to the cyclist
>>would be untrue if *I* were driving through that intersection (if I were to 
>>make the mistake of driving my car :-).
>
>Peter, I understand that most people don't remember the origin of this
>string so let me refresh everyone's memory -- someone was saying that
>they run the occassional red light if no-one is around.
>
>We can think of idiotic circumstances where a bee entering a car might
>cause the accidental death of 100's of people. Exactly what does such
>preposterous speculation give us?
>
>When was the last time you lost control of your car when a person on
>a bicycle ran a red light at an intersection you weren't at?
>
>If this is so dangerous maybe we ought to simply outlaw bicycles altogether.
>>

Shhhh.  Don't give the madmen legislators any ideas.

I'm surprised that no one has suggested state mandated bicycle registration,
yearly bicycle inspections at state authorized inspection centers, state    
mandated bicycle insurance, a bicycle driving test and a bicycle driving 
license.

If Gov. Cuomo hears about this, look out NY state.

-- 
 Ralph Yozzo (yozzo@watson.ibm.com)  
 From the beautiful and historic Mid-Hudson Valley area of NY state
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: tlt38517@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Terry Thiel)
Subject: Re: Bicycles and Handguns..
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 14:54:47 GMT

kruemp@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (John Kruempelstaedter) writes:
>From the San Jose Mercury News  11/3/92 
>Cops seek cyclist who shot assailants.
>San Francisco homicide inspectors are appealing to 
>a bicyclist who shot at three me attempting to rob him
>in Pacific Heights on Monday morning to come forward
>with his side of the story.  According to police,
After what happened to Bernard Goetz this guy is not likely to come
forward wioth his side of the story.  I sure as hell wouldn't.
-Terry
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: elr@trintex.uucp (Ed Ravin)
Subject: Re: Ticketing illegal cycling
Organization: Four Wheels Bad, Two Wheels Good
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 18:16:50 GMT

In article <1cseioINN2mk@iskut.ucs.ubc.ca> reid@penguin.ocgy.ubc.ca (Ken Reid) writes:
>  Often my biggest worry at night is not being able to see cyclists 
>crossing my path when they do not have a decent light.

My biggest worry some days, is that I can ride the fifteen miles to work
and not see another cyclist, period.  Yes, this is winter in the Bronx, but
that's no excuse.  The bikeway near my house is apparently so low in the
consciousness of the local parks department that they have hung a sign
saying "Bicycle Riding Prohibited" next to it.
-- 
Ed Ravin- elr@trintex.uucp| I like to think (and the sooner the better!)
  elr%trintex@uunet.uu.net| Of a cybernetic meadow where mammals and computers
           +1-914-993-4737| Live together in mutually programming harmony
my opinions, nobody else's| Like pure water touching clear sky.  -R. Brautigan
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.soc
From: rlewis@muskwa.ucs.ualberta.ca (Robert Lewis)
Subject: Re: Ticketing illegal cycling
Organization: University Of Alberta, Edmonton Canada
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 23:01:37 GMT

davevh@microsoft.com (Dave Van Horn) writes:

>                 What do you want, to get outlaw bikers to change their
>ways and obey the law, or just to feel righteous for punishing them?
>If the former, then the question is "What will work?" to get them to
>obey the law.  Increasing punishment for outlaw bikers _without a 
>corresponding increase in punishment for drivers_ has been tried numerous
>times and has had no lasting effect.  Punishment alone has not and will
>not work, no matter how righteous it makes you feel.

Please give me the source for your statement that "Increasing punishment 
for outlaw bikers--without a corresponding increase in punishment for 
drivers--has been tried numerous times and has had no lasting effect."
I would not dispute that increased enforcement of the traffic law for 
automobile drivers would improve things for all road users, however I
would like to see your evidence that fear of punishement has no
independent effect on cyclist behaviour.  My own theory of why people
break the law is that they do it because it is profitable (in this case
convinient), perceived to be safe (or at least not prohibitively
dangerous), and one doesn't fear punishement.  I find the view that it
is primarily the result of social allianation (as is suggested by your
explanation) unsatisfactory again confusing rationalizations for
reasons.

>And the trouble with your list of reasons why not ticketing is bad is that
>it does not follow that ticketing is good.  Ok, when we don't get tickets,
>we get no respect, but what makes you think that if we do get tickets we
>will get respect?  Cracking down on outlaws has been tried many times in 
>many places, but I know of no place where it has caused the hoped-for 
>increase in legislative respect.  Do you?

Again, please give me the source for your statement that "Cracking down on 
outlaws has been tried many times in many places, but I know of no place 
where it has caused the hoped-for increase in legislative respect."  All
'crack-downs' I have seen have been sporadic campaigns in which the main
point has been to satisfy the complaints of motorists, none have been
undertaken due to any concern for cyclists safety.  However, as personal
experience is inevitably rather limited, I would be most interested in any
study you know of which shows that a consistant campaign of uniform
enforcement has resulted in no change in cyclists behaviour.

Robert M. Lewis
Department of Sociology
University of Alberta
Edmonton, Alberta
Canada