HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Subject: Re: Private antidiscrimination policies in CO (was Re: Attention...)
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 93 13:45:45 GMT

In article <1993Jan2.085209.28602@Princeton.EDU>
spencer@phoenix.princeton.edu (S. Spencer Sun) writes:

>discussing it in e-mail with two other mutual friends, and
>when I pointed out that hetereosexuals could still, for
>example, bring suit for reasons of orientation-based
>discrimination, he said (direct quote) "Give me a BREAK!
>Why would heterosexuals claim discrimination based on sexual
>orientation??  That's reaching for straws."

>"Why" is not an issue.  "They simply CAN" is.

Right you are.

You know, I admit to feeling less hostile toward people who
may have a decent heart but merely haven't thought about it
at all or enough.  Probably a lot of us know people with
whom we've been friendly who turned out all right with a
little shove in the right direction.  After all, I've told
myself, we're *all* born ignorant.

But really, that should not be neceesary.  A homophobe is
a homophobe, whether from malevolence or from ignorance;
the end result for us is the same, either way.  

Your friend is a fine example.  Anyone who says "give me a
break" should be slapped hard right across the face, without
hesitation.  Anyone who says "that's reaching for straws"
deserves a very rude shock.

Your friend, Walter, Cramer, and everyone like them are just
plain bigots, and I think making finer distinctions than
that is not very sensible.  There may be shades of bigotry,
people who are more easily awakened than others, but your
friend is as much a murderer of suicided teens, a tormenter
of closeted priests, a harasser of lesbian teachers, a
taunter of bisexual classmates, etc., as the most virulent
neo-nazi or religious bigot is.  The differences, if present,
don't mean a damn thing at the bottom line: these people
are *all* oppressors.

-- 
[Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin]
[Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson]
[Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888]
[---------> Discrimination, Bigotry, and Hate are not Family Values <---------]
From: smithw@col.hp.com (Walter Smith)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Private antidiscrimination policies in CO (was Re:
Date: 1 Jan 1993 00:24:14 GMT
Organization: Colorado Springs IT Center
NNTP-Posting-Host: fajita19.cs.itc.hp.com

anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:
> I'm unclear what it is you're trying to establish, Walter.
> Clearly, employment (and other) discrimination because of
> homophobia exists; you're apparently not disputing that.
> When you ask for more detail, I wonder why?  Is it your
> intention to argue that "a few" such cases are somehow not
> worth making a fuss about, that homophobia isn't "all that
> bad," or what?

My personal experiences tell me that it isn't as bad as 
I read people here saying it is.  Others say it is.  I
am looking to reconcile in my own mind the reality of 
the situation.   

Walter
From: thaaang@cwis.unomaha.edu (John Dorrance)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: soc.motss.*
Date: 24 Dec 92 19:27:43 GMT
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha

Furr@cup.portal.com (George Dalton Madison) belches:

>Thaaang squeals:

>>Oh, foo. IM has some good twee going on, and I happen to find some of
>                      ^^^^^^^^^
>A contradiction in terms.

George, get your literary devices straight. You mean 'a *redundancy*
in terms'.

>>the butcher models hot, and I'm listening to Prince even as I type,
>     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Ah.... you mean the ones just a *touch* more butch than a
>drag queen screaming about a run in his stockings? There's
>certainly nothing one could actually call "butch" in that rag.

Sorry George, but I'm just so *over* motor oil and pissing contests...
Besides, it takes a lot more talent to dance with a guy than it does
to piss on him.

>Or maybe you were talking about guys in white, blood-spattered
>aprons holding cleavers?  ;-)

Blood is *not* an accessory in this latest issue of IM. You're thinking
of the LA riots special edition.

>Of course, what you were listening to helps to explain why this
>post was so ... disjointed.  Remember, "Drivel in, Drivel out!"

George! Are you listening to Van Morrison again?

--
thaaang@cwis.unomaha.edu * John Dorrance * Disco Diva y Flamenco Chico

      You're like one of those... 'Cabbage Patch' creatures...
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: buckmr@aix02.ecs.rpi.edu (Ron Buckmire)
Subject: Re: Top GLB Fiction
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 06:08:55 GMT

ric@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Graffiti 404-972-4999) writes:

>We should come up with permission to archive all these onto a CD ROM
>and market it as the "Gay Owner's Manual" you never got.....
Actaully that reminds me that there is a list of books in the QRD at
nifty.andrew.cmu.edu in /pub/QRD/qrd/info/books4newlyout that the original
poster maybe should look at.


-- 
RON BUCKMIRE, 11 Colvin Circle, Troy, NY 12180-3735. ``D.C. in 93!''
vox:(518)-276-8910 fax:(518)-276-6920 buckmr@rpi.edu buckmr@rpitsmts.bitnet
 92 of the 400 richest Americans *inherited* their wealth. Source: _Details_.
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Subject: Re: Dworkin (was Re: Liberty)
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 92 03:07:03 GMT

In article <mattm-221292151135@mcmelmon.apple.com>
mattm@apple.com (Matthew Melmon) writes:

>and I will *never* give you the benefit of a "better year."

I may or may not have it, irrespective of you.
But you will still be a swine, either way.

-- 
[Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin]
[Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson]
[Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888]
[---------> Discrimination, Bigotry, and Hate are not Family Values <---------]
From: rogerk@queernet.org (Roger B.A. Klorese)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Posting Styles
Date: 3 Jan 93 18:22:35 GMT
Article-I.D.: queernet.C0AJ1o.L5F
Organization: QueerNet

In article <1993Jan3.074226.14408@adobe.com> asente@adobe.com (A Usenet Pal) writes:
>In article <1993Jan1.162802.19162@macc.wisc.edu> anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:
>>
>>Perhaps when the daffodils are in bloom.  Hm, mayhap
>>I will be in Californication at about that time.
>
>Jess, I hate to tell you this, but the daffodils are *already* in bloom at
>our house.

Not to mention at Harry Ugol's...
-- 
ROGER B.A. KLORESE                                              +1 415 ALL-ARFF
rogerk@unpc.QueerNet.ORG              {ames,decwrl,pyramid}!sgiblab!unpc!rogerk
"Normal is not something to aspire to, it's something to get away from."
                                                                   -- J. Foster
From: mattm@apple.com (Matthew Melmon)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Dworkin (was Re: Liberty)
Date: 22 Dec 92 23:29:03 GMT
Followup-To: soc.motss
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.

In article <1992Dec22.204341.19785@macc.wisc.edu>, anderson@macc.wisc.edu
(Jess Anderson) wrote:
 
> The closest you can apparently get to being a real anything
> is a real swine.

That would be "fascist swine," snookums. 

I take it the logical progression proved too much for your
piss-sack of a mind, and that you therefore found it necessary
to concentrate upon the parenthetical?  Small surprise.

I do hope the effort to split this group is successful.  I would
be *thrilled* to see this political crap - and the voluminous
crappers it attracts (you, Jezeboo, being far and above the principle
one) - moved off into their own little cubby-hole. I could then
settle down to an almost peaceful existence in whatever.whatever.misc,
yapping about Jason Priestley and bubble-butted beach blondes.

I'd even be nice to Dolphie.

But you, Anderson, are unique in the degree to which I love to
despise you.  You're a pompous shit-bag, through and through, 
and I will *never* give you the benefit of a "better year."

Ever.

*X*
From: an104@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ric Helton)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: GLAAD: Garth Brooks & gay-inclusive country music
Date: 30 Dec 1992 01:28:09 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: an104@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ric Helton)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu



GARTH BROOKS: COUNTRY COOL

In country music superstar Garth Brooks' new album, _The Chase_,
a rousing song titled "We Shall Be Free" makes it clear that
we'll be unshackled only "when we're free to love anyone we
choose" -- a line Brooks says is meant to include same-sex
couples. (The song also addresses racism and other inhumanities.)

In a _Newsweek_ interview Brooks said, "I don't know where
someone gets off telling human beings they can have some rights
and not others... For those people that feel religiously that
homosexualit is wrong... I say, 'Hey, man, stay on your own
side.' To penalize someone for being homosexual, I don't think
that's our place."

This message from conservative Nashville is most welcome, and
support for gay family values couldn't be more timely. Give him a
pat on the back by writing to:

        Garth Brooks
        c/o Liberty Records
        3322 West End Avenue
        Nashville, TN 37203
From: rogerk@queernet.org (Roger B.A. Klorese)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Changing standards of female beauty (Is: the empowerment of women)
Date: 3 Jan 93 18:25:46 GMT
Article-I.D.: queernet.C0AJ6y.L77
Organization: QueerNet

In article <1i6201INNo03@mizar.usc.edu> adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:
>In article <1993Jan3.014408.18528@toolz.uucp> 
>todd@toolz.uucp (Todd Merriman) writes:
>> Rember the "bra burning" of the 70's?  Maybe it's time to 
>> have a "makeup burning" of the 90's.
>Well, no, I don't remember the "bra burning" of the '70s.
>Perhaps you'd like to tell us about it.

Of course you do, dear. It was a media-hype fiction invented by men
in the press to express their limited understanding and condescension
toward issues women were raising under a sympathetic facade.  Doesn't
that remind you of the rest of the message to which you replied?
-- 
ROGER B.A. KLORESE                                              +1 415 ALL-ARFF
rogerk@unpc.QueerNet.ORG              {ames,decwrl,pyramid}!sgiblab!unpc!rogerk
"Normal is not something to aspire to, it's something to get away from."
                                                                   -- J. Foster
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: rjwill6@pbsdts.sdcrc.pacbell.com (Rod Williams)
Subject: "SF Top Cops Lobby to Overturn Military Ban"
Originator: rjwill6@pbsdts.sdcrc.pacbell.com
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, California
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 21:57:13 GMT

An article from last week's (San Francisco) Bay Area Reporter
(12/23/92), a G/L weekly newspaper, reprinted without
permission...

    ---------------------------------------------------

SF Top Cops Lobby To Overturn Military Ban
by David O'Connor

San Francisco Police Chief Tony Ribera has written a letter
to General Colin Powell advising him to go along with
President-elect Bill Clinton's plan to lift the military ban
on lesbians and gays.

"I felt that I had unique expertise in that I had probably
directly managed more openly gay officers than anybody in
law enforcement," Ribera told the Bay Area Reporter.  "I
thought it would have really been cowardly of me not to take
a stand for these officers who have performed so well for me
over the years."

Ribera said he did not intend for his letter to be made public
but he hopes it will help to get the ban lifted.

In his letter to Powell, Ribera wrote, "In 1979, before the
first openly gay officer entered our department, I had doubts
about the propriety of hiring gays as police officers.
However the events of the past 14 years have changed my
thinking on the issue."

Ribera went on to say that while he was platoon commander in
the Mission District, 20 of the 65 officers in his platoon
were lesbian or gay.

"Our platoon was far and above the most productive in all
measurable categories of performance among the city's 27
platoons," he wrote.  "I would also note that during that five
year period there was not a single incident of unprofessional
conduct by the gay and lesbian officers working for me.

"General Powell, I am not a flaming liberal advocating a
cause," Ribera wrote.  "I am in fact relatively conservative
and a practicing Roman Catholic.  However, I feel morally
compelled to acknowledge police officers who have given me and
our department quality performance and loyalty."

Ribera told the B.A.R. he wanted lesbian and gay officers to
know how much he has appreciated their work over the years.

San Francisco Police Lieutenant Alan Benner also has written
about the impact of open gays and lesbians in the police force.

Benner's report, "The Process of Inclusion," concluded that
"issues surrounding inclusion of homosexuals is more hype than
substance."

In discussing the effect of officers who have died of AIDS,
Benner wrote, "the magnitude of our loss and the magnitude of
our shared humanity made sexual orientation a minuscule,
irrelevant and petty factor."

    ----------------- end of article ------------------

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
rod williams -=- pacific bell -=- san ramon, ca -=- rjwill6@pacbell.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: d000dlphi@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu (David Speakman)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Muffin on Parade
Date: 30 Dec 92 07:23:42 GMT
Organization: Ball State University, Muncie, In - Univ. Computing Svc's

In article <55440005@hpscit.sc.hp.com>, jprigeon@hpscit.sc.hp.com (John Prigeon) writes:
> Hi Everybody!!!!!
> 
Ha ha.. Gotcha. Maybe you'll be like me and only post during your vacation.

(the recently unemployed David Speakman thanks good fortune for financial aid
to students)

> 
> Anyway, I've spent some time figuring out my smurf and bear codes.
> Allow me to share them with you:
> 
> S4 b g l+ y+ z n o- x- a+ u v- j++
> 
> B0 f+ t++ w- g s
>           
You have been an active muffin if you have figured these out.
I've had the bear code archived for some time, but never bothered (being fairly
hairless -- except for a a blotch on my chest and whatever that is between your
navel and... )

Anyway, could someone send me the smurf codes (e-mail).

I have no idea what they are (which means I probably an a big one!)

8-)
     
> One thing about the bear code has puzzled me, though.  Does anyone really
> use e+ or e++?

Don't just use e+ or e++. Hold them afterward and tell them that you care..

David Speakman
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center
Date: Friday, 1 Jan 1993 12:41:00 EST
From: <SECBH@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject:    penis size

In article <thaaang.725850020@cwis>,
thaaang@cwis.unomaha.edu (John Dorrance) writes on penis size:

>(And to address the original topic: I myself wouldn't come to a
>bunch of queers for sympathy about your horribly long dick (I
>know *my* capacity for rational thought began to dwindle at 'I
>can't wear shorts in public', and was long gone by the time I
>got to 'because it sticks out over the waistband')....

I think John gives us a handle on this problem.

I have known many Irish to observe, "There is no such thing as a
large whiskey."   A similar mentality exists in the gay
male subculture which believes that there is no such thing as
being overly endowed, and longs to choke on its words.

Jack Carroll
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: rjwill6@pbsdts.sdcrc.pacbell.com (Rod Williams)
Subject: NY Times Supports Colorado Boycott
Originator: rjwill6@pbsdts.sdcrc.pacbell.com
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, California
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 17:03:56 GMT

I'm in Oracle class this week (hi KevinMichaelRonetal!), so
I don't have time to type.  Just wanted to let y'all know
that the New York Times, in its lead editorial today
(12/21/92) comes out in support of the Colorado Boycott.

    "A successful boycott can help energize the most progressive
    Coloradans to overturn their new law.  And it would send a
    potent warning to other states that may soon consider similar
    measures." 

...and...

    "The boycott is a legitimate weapon in a democratic society
    and, historically, one of the most effective."
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
rod williams -=- pacific bell -=- san ramon, ca -=- rjwill6@pacbell.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: DLM
Subject: Re: The Melmon Method (was Dworkin)
Organization: University of Missouri
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 14:30:26 CST

In article <mattm-221292104543@mcmelmon.apple.com>
mattm@apple.com (Matthew Melmon) writes:
 
   <fem-bashing, flame-baiting rhetoric deleted)
 
>heterosexual men would be well advised to at least
>consider the fringe benefits of homosexuality...)
 
Aha! The *true* purpose of your attack on women! A method to your madness!
(is it too late to mention that all you disillusioned het-women out
can call me *any*time for advice?) ;-)
 
Diane
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Subject: Re: Dworkin (was Re: Liberty)
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 92 00:21:32 GMT


In article <1992Dec29.141645.11478@tc.cornell.edu>
shore@dinah.tc.cornell.edu (Melinda Shore) writes:

>In article <1hoi7rINN2br@shelley.u.washington.edu>
>rhiann@carson.u.washington.edu (Sandy --not Sandra) writes:

>>Without Dworkin, is it possible that women like Daly and
>>Griffin would be too 'radical' to be seriously listened to?

>Sorry, but in my experience among the nonfeminists, both
>*are* considered too radical to be taken seriously.

I'm not too won over by that argument, though I think it
depends somewhat which nonfeminists you intended.  Be that
as it may, your other point is what I see as *really*
strong:

>I think that what we're really seeing is that while misogyny
>is a problem that should be addressed in due time but isn't
>something to get overly exercised about, man-hating is a
>heinous crime of major proportions that must be decried
>loudly and publicly whenever we see even a hint of it.

The in-control group (men) discounts woman-hating while
responding with infantile alarm to man-hating, even when the
incidence of the former is several *orders of magnitude*
greater than the incidence of the latter.

I see it as quite analogous to the righteous bleats of
reverse discrimination among whites when considering even
small increases in opportunity for people of color.

Both reactions are strong indicators of male privilege
in the first case and of white privilege in the second.

<> Among many prominent black figures, gays are completely
<> castigated and seen as a testament to the pernicious ways of
<> white racism, the ultimate embodiment of the emasculated
<> black man.  We are no longer men, no longer black because of
<> our homosexuality.
<> To me, it's more painful because we should know better.  We
<> can't pretend innocence and ignorance in the way that people
<> who've been privileged and who never had that kind of
<> oppression inflicted upon them can.
<> We know the ways in which culture, rhetoric and politics
<> serve oppression, and yet we continue to impose those very
<> narrow notions of identity in such a way that we only mimic
<> what the majority culture has done to us.  It's shameful.
<> -- Marlon Riggs
-- 
[Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin]
[Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson]
[Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888]
[---------> Discrimination, Bigotry, and Hate are not Family Values <---------]
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: EE statements (was: Re: Attention Skiers Boycotting Colorado)
Date: 1 Jan 93 05:58:11 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1993Jan1.055811.20262
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <1992Dec31.221254.3186@macc.wisc.edu> anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:
>Why doesn't that tell you something, Walter?  You're leading
>the pack in self-righteousness, currently, and it's wearing
>more than a little thin.  Maybe you should devote more time
>to trying to understand things.

Walter is under the illusion he's debating Jehovah's Witnesses in
talk.religion.misc, and he's using the same antagonistic style
which falls miserably flat here.  He doesn't seem to realize he
a guest and he's behaving like a boor.


-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
From: dbidwa@sei.cmu.edu (Daniel Bidwa)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Age-ism and the gay community
Date: 21 Dec 92 17:31:46 GMT
Organization: The Software Engineering Institute


nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar) writes:
|> For that matter, why is all porn about 20 year old boys with no body
|> hair and perfect gym muscles? *Boring*. Bear magazine seems to have a
|> few models who are over 30, but still nothing like what I'm interested
|> in. There has to be erotica/porn featuring "older men" - but where?

Try "Chiron Rising", or "Daddy" magazine. Both lean towards "Bear" territory,
but the emphasis is on older men. I don't have addresses on hand for either
(Steve?), but let me know if you can't find them, and I'll dig them up.

(Geez, is it something in the air recently? This topic just came up on the BML
too. Maybe it's a movement...)

Dan, who has yet to play with anyone within fifteen years of his age, and has
since stopped bringing up the whole age question because he's tired of people
telling him "you don't _look_ 23!"...
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: jarvis@psych.toronto.edu (Brian Jarvis)
Subject: Re: the story ends with a cliff hanger?
Keywords: kidnapping, beards, bikes
Organization: Dept. of Psychology, University of Toronto
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 20:13:47 GMT

In article <1992Dec29.185331.27745@thinkage.on.ca> kgdykes@thinkage.on.ca (Ken Dykes) writes:
>In article <1992Dec29.011207.16264@midway.uchicago.edu> grendel@uhuru.uchicago.edu (Cliff Winnig) writes:
>>But do I get to ride on Ken's bike?
>
>yes. but the law only allows one passenger. ooooo, i guess i get a non-group
>opportunity then! :-) :-)

I'll buy one, then.

Raising the ante,

Brian
-- 

Brian A. Jarvis,          Rm. 4026, Sidney Smith Hall, Dept. of Psychology,
jarvis@psych.toronto.edu  University of Toronto, Toronto, Ontario, Canada
System Administrator      M5S 1A1  (416) 978-3948
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: mattm@apple.com (Matthew Melmon)
Subject: Re: Changing standards of female beauty (was Re: Ageism)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1992 22:30:57 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.
Followup-To: soc.motss

Calm down, Dolphie...  You are getting *too* predictable.  It seems
I can provoke you even easier than hairless twinks can provoke that
GDM fellow.  I am not seriously trying to suggest that "sexually 
frustrated old men" are responsible for turning fashion models into
13 year-old boys.  In an earlier age - perhaps a couple of months
ago - I would relish the opportunity to carry on with you (or rather,
against you) over this; but, sadly, I find myself almost beginning
to like the extent of you fashion queen-li-ness.

Besides, the New Year is upon us, and perhaps it is time for a
kinder, gentler _Splat Ex Splaticus_.

*X*
(DLM, Season, and Emily must take most of the blame for making
me actually *enjoy* soc.motss a little more; and, of course,
there is the dramatic reduction of Andersonian babbage, which
could otherwise sour even the refreshingly delightful emergence
of the aforementioned DLM (who gave me a line that was worthy
of a pretentious Jewish queen:  I don't hate men...  I have a 
son who I hope will be one someday).  I do hope both DLM and
Season increase the frequency of their posts.  <nudge>  <nudge>
<hint> <hint>)