From: heckman@kingcong.UWaterloo.ca (Gerald Heckman)
Subject: Re: A note on sarcasm (When do we stop being...  
Keywords: Terribly, terribly long. 
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 16:11:27 GMT

In article <SBO.92Apr14201118@froh.vlsi.polymtl.ca> sbo@vlsi.polymtl.ca (Stephane Boucher) writes: ...
                      ... An authoratative guide to recognizing sarcasm.

WARNING ! WARNING ! WARNING !

Have you ever tried to explain to someone a joke he just didn't get ? 
Excrutiating isn't it ? This entire post is like that, and worse.
Please avoid it if you can.
                               - Gerald
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh dear. I was wondering if this would stop. I guess it won't on its own.
This thread has been, for those who haven't been following, (and you certainly
haven't missed much) a study in sarcasm.

It started when Stephane, in a marvelous, eloquent and subtle display
of irony, "imitated" what Sylvain concluded to be his opinion of an
"English Canadian", and ranted about "damn frogs" etc. It was only by
a feat of outstanding intellectual reflexion that I understood that
Stephane, an avowed French Quebecois seperatist, whose views I have
been critiquing for the past year, was in fact doing a parody of what 
he thought was a prevalent attitude among "English" Canadians. It was 
very well done, and I laughed a lot. Ha ha. Really.

I was concerned however, that the view of "English Canada" as a bunch 
of rednecked bigotted "hockey players" Stephane seemed to be getting
from the pages of La Presse's sports editorial page, were just a
tiny bit off base. So, confident my plan would be as clear as daylight,
I typed off a condemnation of Stephane's play acting, hoping he would
explain in the next post that he was exagerating, etc. Nope. Much to
my surprise, Sylvain Chamberland instead intervened on Stephane's
behalf, patiently explaining to me that Stephane was adopting a stereotype
based on his opinion of "English" Canadians, and adding, to my greater
surprise, that he felt he held the same cynical view. In my next post,
afraid I was getting too subtle, I responded with "Ahs" and "Ohs" to
explanations like "Stephane is a seperatist, he wouldn't insult himself".
I also tried to get my message in, wondering aloud where this stereotype
came from, and why Stephane was the only one to have used it, now and in 
the past, on this network. Would they finally clue in ? Nope. Here is 
Stephane's "amused appraisal" of the thread, with comments added, and
translations deleted to save space. [Please also note Stephane's incredible 
interest in my name, with which he constantly fiddles, examining it in
all its facets and intricacies.]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Stephane writes:

>Hello fellow netters,
>
>I was quite amused when I saw the reaction that one of my posts
>generated. When I wrote it I had something in mind. What I had in mind
>was to check how people would react to a certain situation. This
>situation I wanted to recreate was a kind of mirror image of a thread
>I myself started about a certain well known figure from Montreal Quebec.
>
>Here's my original post:
>--Begin original post--
>  |>Why use the term "destroy"? Why not use the therm "dismantle" (sp.?)?
>  |> 
>  |>Yeah, ok, The country will be destroyed, All the provinces will be brought
>  |>to their knees. It will be appocalliptic. Oh no! What kind of stupid people
>  |>want to demolish such a greate nation, namely Canada? We must put those who
>  |>oppose the GREAT Canadian Federation in jail.
>  |> 
>  |>Please! God, save us! Save the Queen and Canada! Save us against those
>  |>nasty sepertist! 
>  |> 
>  |>Make this country Unilingual anglophones so that we won't get Funking
>  |>French on our cereal Box. We will get back the jobs that where stolen from
>  |>us by the Funcking Frogs.
>  |>
>  |>Let's not give 60 Millions to the province of Quebec. They don't deserve
>  |>it. They must first sign a deal. We won't pay for them. After all, it's not
>  |>their money. It's ours. Furthermore, we only get 800 Millions dispite the
>  |>fact that we are less populous. What an outrage.
>  |> 
>  |>Let's solve this once and for all. Let's send the army. Let's put those
>  |>damn Frogs back where they belong.
>  |> 
>  |>Let's save Canada from DESTRUCTION!!!
>--end of original post--
>
>After that post, Gerald "P" was one to react to my post, much to my
>surprise.  Note how he conveniently managed to cut the start and end of
>my original post. In particular, note the first and last statement,
>then look at the entire post.
>
>The following is most of the thread that followed Gerry "P"'s post. I
>edited it a bit to make it shorter and highlite the indignation that
>Gerald expressed.
>
>  |>From: heckman@kingcong.UWaterloo.ca (Gerald Heckman)
>  |>Newsgroups: can.general,can.politics,soc.culture.canada
>  |>Subject: Re: When do we stop being outsiders? (WAS Re: The Journal on ...)
>  |>
>  |>SB:Make this country Unilingual anglophones so that we won't get Funking
>  |>SB:French on our cereal Box. We will get back the jobs that where stolen 
>  |>SB:from us by the Funcking Frogs.
>  |>
>  |>SB:Let's not give 60 Millions to the province of Quebec. They don't deserve
>  |>SB:it. They must first sign a deal. We won't pay for them. After all, it's
>  |>SB:not their money. It's ours. Furthermore, we only get 800 Millions 
>  |>SB:dispite the fact that we are less populous. What an outrage.
>  |>
>  |>SB:Let's solve this once and for all. Let's send the army. Let's put those
>  |>SB:damn Frogs back where they belong.
>
>The above is what G. Heckman decided to retain.

[Strangely enough, I chose to retain that part of Stephane's post which ]
[defined the "redneck" stereotype he was attributing to "English"       ]
[Canadians. Surely a coincidence.]

>First phase of Gerald's indignation...
>  |>GH1:Stephane ! Il a fallu que je regarde la signature une deuxieme fois
>  |>GH1:pour verifier que c'etait bien toi qui ecrivait ces mots. Je n'en crois 
>  |>GH1:pas mes yeux. Je ne me souviens pas d'avoir vu sur ce net les mots
>  |>GH1:"funcking frog", "frog" et "damn frogs" utilises comme tu l'as fait.
>  |>GH1:J'espere que tu ne crois pas ce que tu dis - en tant que Quebecois
>  |>GH1:francophone je trouves ton choix de vocabulaire hostile et insultant.
>  |>GH1:Pourquoi es-tu le seul sur le net a utiliser un tel vocabulaire ?
>  |>GH1:Pourquoi es-tu le seul ici a avoir adopte une position aussi extreme ?
>
>... followed by what seems to be a good translation.
[Thanks]

>Now we witness the second phase of G P Heckman's indignation. Gerald
>must have had a few drink when he read my post. According to Gerald I
>am, me the Quebec seperatist, attacking people from La Belle Province. 
>This is rather contradictory.

[A brilliant observation, Stephane. Truly. Me, the drunken Quebec  ]
["federaliste" (whatever that means anymore), I wouldn't have been ]
[capable of understanding something like that. As for my drinking  ]
[problem, you really aren't very nice to mention something that    ]
[personal on the net, although come to think of it, personal topics]
[don't seem to have stopped you before. I'm really working on it, I]
[promise. The fact they closed Woody's pub helps a great deal.     ]

>Note that a participant in the thread, Sylvain Chamberland, saw the
>sarcasm of my post.

[That's really marvelous. Outstanding. Good for him !]

>  |>GH2:Oui, t'as raison ! Y'a beaucoup de gens qui expriment leur desaccord
>  |>GH2:avec certaines politiques et attitudes appuyees par le gouvernement
>  |>GH2:du Quebec et par des personnes publiques nationalistes au Quebec. Mais
>  |>GH2:Stephane se montre hostile et insultant envers tous les Quebecois 
>  |>GH2:francophones ! J'ai rarement vu des choses de la sorte sur can.politics.
>  |>GH2:Il attaque les gens du Quebec et nous lance des noms ! Il nous a appele
>  |>GH2:"damn frogs" !
[translation]

>Then some bla bla bla between GH and SC...

[Just bla bla bla ? Hmmm. Maybe I still haven't made my point.]

>  |>GH2:Dirais-tu qu'il exagere, qu'il adopte le stereotype d'un extremiste
>  |>GH2:(redneck) pour parodier ce qu'il croit etre l'opinion publique dans 
>  |>GH2:les autres provinces Canadiennes ?
>  |> 
>  |>GH2:Would you say he's exagerating, and adopting the stereotype of an 
>  |>GH2:extremist redneck to parody what he believes to be the public opinion 
>  |>GH2:in other Canadian provinces ?
>  |> 
>  |>SC2:That's the whole point of his posting!!!
>  |>Oh !!!
>  |>Ah !!!

[Note exclamations of feigned wonder and surprise - the great feeling ]
[enlightenment brings .... I hope you get to feel like this, Stephane.]

>  |>SC2:He was stating what he thinks is the opinion of an "English Canadian"!

[And SC added that "I don't blame him at all because I feel pretty much the  ]
[same way. I did not see much improvement of Canada's attitude toward Quebec"]
[Which made me feel good about starting this thing, if only because  the     ]
[stereotype seems to be more widely held than I first thought...]

>And then comes some criticism.
>
>  |>Geez ! I wonder where he got that opinion from. The only person who ever
>  |>calls French-Canadians frogs on this network is Stephane himself !
>  |>He used to complain he had cold blood and would write "ribbid ribbid"  
>  |>in his .sig. Do you think he's been reading too much "Rejean Tremblay" in 
>  |>La Presse.

>Funny! according to Gerald I was complaining about all sorts of things
>related to an amphibious, tailless animal. He apperently did not see
>the sarcasm there neither.

[No, I guess I didn't. What I saw was the extreme ease with which you ]
[resort to stereotypes when dealing with non-Francophone Canadians.   ]
[How else can one explain the fact that you are the only one to use   ]
[these slurs agains't yourself on the net ? Is it a way to reassure   ]
[yourself that this stereotype is still prevalent, because you see it ]
[typed in your messages ?]

[translation]

>  |>SC2:He called HIMSELF as well as all FRENCH Quebeckers frogs.
>
>Here again, we see Gerald looking surprised, probably because he did
>not see the sarcasm...

[Yeah, probably. As you so kindly put it, I was by then dead drunk, ]
[and certainly extremely bored, possibly even more than I am now.   ]

>  |>Now that's strange ! Why would he call himself names that others,
>  |>even "English Canadians" on this net have not used agains't him ?
[translation]

>Nom we have Sylvain that is right on the money...
>
>  |> SC2:He WAS NOT attacking French Quebeckers!
>
>But Gerald expresses some doubt...
>
>  |> Ah bon ! Alors "damn frogs n'est pas un insulte...
>  |> All right then. So "damn frogs" isn't an insult...   
>
>To these doubts I will say: "It can be an insult if you take the post
>and give it that meaning".

[Amen]

>  |> SC2:He was being cynical. "sarcastique" would be a better word.
>  |> 
>  |> Sarcasme ? Connais pas.
>  |> Sarcasm ? I don't know the word.
>
>...Which explains why Gerry did not see the meaning of the post. 

[And I thought I was giving myself away when I said this. Oh well. ]
[I guess I'll resort to putting smileys in my posts. It seems to be]
[the only sure way of getting understood by some people.]

>And then Gerald and Sylvain keep on going for a while...

[Embarassing isn't it ?]
[...]

>Richler has, according to the thread, the right to say what he wants
>how he wants. On the other hand, according to the thread about my
>comment, my comments should not be tolerated, and I am also apperently
>insulting the Quebecers. Richler, however, had every rights to bash
>Quebecers.
>
>Is there a double standard? 

[Yes, you seem be unable to recognize that others may have the capacity ]
[to understand and use sarcasm ? Just a guess ...]

>Can't I say what I want how I want?

[You've been doing it for... I don't know now, it seems like years ...]

>Seems to me I don't have, unlike some people, the right to say what I
>want how I want.

[Ohhhh. Let me wipe away the tears. Still persecuted eh ? Well, let's ]
[just say that you obviously have the right to say what you want, and ]
[how you want it. You can use all the outdated, hurtful, stereotypes  ]
[you want. And you've exercised this right extensively. But remember  ]
[that I also can say what I want, and use sarcasm (yes, I looked it   ]
[up in the dictionnary today) to question and denounce your use of    ]
[these stereotypes.                                                   ]

[J'mange mon Yoplait quand et comme ca me plait. Toi aussi j'espere ? ]
[...]

>  ,                          ,                           ,
>Stephane Boucher, ing. jr. | Ecole Polytechnique de Montreal

Gerald P Heckman 
Universite de Waterloo,
Waterloo, Ontario, Canada.

Newsgroups: can.general,can.politics,soc.culture.canada