From: mikea@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Michael A. Atkinson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Defense revisited
Date: 13 Nov 92 04:11:06 GMT
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston Illinois.



Sorry for taking so long to respond, but I got a couple pieces of email on
this subject.  Both the senders of the email graciously gave me permission
to post their mail to me publically.

-------------------------------------------------
From: btree!hale@UCSD.EDU (Bob Hale)

You [he means me, asbestos@nwu.edu] wrote:
"I for one *would* almost certainly interpret refusal-to-obey as a
threatening response.  If I ever (touch wood) have to draw a firearm on
someone, the only two acceptable responses will be instant flight, or
obeying what I tell him.  Anything else will get him shot, and I'll deal
with the liability later."

If the perpetrator speaks English then this is a good assumption.
I don't know what the situation is in your area, but around here
you are likely to be faced with a perp who speaks (or acknowledges)
only Vietnamese, Laotian, or Spanish.  Shouting commands in English
will be waste of time in these cases.

If you did fire on someone after telling them in English to stop or
halt, and it turns out that the person did not understand any English,
then the situation could become very nasty.  I haven't figured out
how to handle this problem.  If you have any suggestions then
I would like to hear them.

Best regards,

Bob Hale                                      ...!ucsd!btree!hale
...!btree!hale@ucsd.edu                       ...!ucsd!btree!hale@uunet.uu.net

--------------------


#From hes@unity.ncsu.edu Tue Nov 10 07:34:48 1992

In article <1992Nov10.013046.11402@news.acns.nwu.edu> you write:
# ...
#I for one *would* almost certainly interpret refusal-to-obey as a
#threatening response.  If I ever (touch wood) have to draw a firearm on
#someone, the only two acceptable responses will be instant flight, or
#obeying what I tell him.  Anything else will get him shot, and I'll deal
#with the liability later.

Mike,
  Perhaps you are just trying to be brief, but I think that your
statement is much too simplistic.
#
#And if he flees towards my family, he gets shot.
#
#If I shot somebody under these circumstances, and I was not (as I will be
#when I finish school) in a state with a more enlightened view of
#self-defense than Illinois, I'd probably argue that his refusal to get
#prone was reasonably interpreted as preparation to harm me.

  Given that a person could be somewhat hard of hearing, could
be somewhat befuddled, or simply might not understand you
immediately - it might be extremely difficult to say that
<"Prone out you scumbag!" One-second-delay-with-perp-standing-still.
Bang!> is going to be interpreted by any jury as "reasonable."
The justification for application of lethal force is that you
have a reasonable assessment that the perp threatens your life
or severe harm (or that of your family) and I just can't see that
"he was standing still and was probably thinking about how he
could kill me" meets that type of standard.  Even in a state
which gives special legal status to defending your home will
probably frown at shooting someone who has "surrendered" to
you when you claim that the person simply didn't follow your
orders quickly enough to suit you.  (Note that these are not
orders to drop a gun, but to lie down.)
#
#I'm open to suggestions on better ways to handle this, I sure am no
#authority.  
# ...

  I'm not an authority - the above is just IMHO.

  Best wishes,

--henry schaffer  n c state univ

-------------------------------------------

Before I continue I'd like to thank Henry and Bob for their constructive
comments, and for permitting me to post their email to me.

All of the following presupposes I've drawn a firearm on a home invader,
and he is standing still.

"Prone out scumbag!!!" one-second-delay<BANG!BANG!BANG!> is not the way I
think I'd do this.  "Put your hands where I can see them, NOW! NOW! NOW!
Pongas tus manos en la cabeza, ahora mismo!"

At this point, the guy will either have fled, made a threatening move, done
as I instructed, or looked at me stupidly.  The drawn firearm would be a
hint for the deaf, those who don't speak English or Spanish, and for the
terminally stupid.

If the guy makes no threatening move, and still does not obey, I will
repeat myself.  If he understands what I'm saying, and does not obey, I
should shoot him; on the premise that if somebody is good and ready to
shoot you, your options are to flee (too late, he's already had a chance),
obey, or fight back.  If he's going to fight back, I don't want to get
hurt. 

However, if he does not understand (the horrible examples of the deaf men
getting shot being examples of my point), then I need a way of making him
understand.  I don't know how I can A) make people who do not understand
spoken English or Spanish understand me and B) how to tell when someone
really does not understand.

I'm likely to not give a home invader the benefit of the doubt, but as has
been pointed out, it could certainly happen in other situations.

I'm certainly open to suggestions.



Mike
-- 
Michael A. Atkinson    | "I'm wearing this hat because I don't want 
asbestos@nwu.edu       |  my brain to ears out my ooze." - Jeff B.

            A Libertarian and an NRA member.