HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: proberts@informix.com (Paul Roberts)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Terrorism
Date: 12 Jan 93 07:28:00 GMT
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.

In article <43351@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans) writes:
>
>	If someone plants a bomb which later explodes in a 
>        military transport plane flying to Somalia, 
>	I would consider that TERRORISM, even if none of the
>	dead were civilians.
>

How about if someone plants a bomb in the King David Hotel?
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: israel's friends
Date: 13 Jan 93 00:41:53 GMT
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University

In article <1993Jan10.1777.22355@channel1> "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:
>To: Adam Shostack

>Wrt to the thoughts of what Western opinion elites I am privy to,
>in a specific sense that is obviously a private matter. In a more
>general sense I've had conversations and private communications
>with quite a few people at Harvard, MIT and elsewhere, in and out
>of government, which lead me to the conclusion that private
>opinion in the U.S. and the West towards Israel is not nearly as
>friendly as public opinion. And public opinion is already none
>too friendly.

This is probably a result of the well known biases of the residents of
the Peoples Rebublic of Cambridge.  

I doubt its a representative sample of western opinion elites.  

>Try this simple experiment. The New York Times is probably the
>most influential policy elite newspaper in the the U.S. and the
>West (and quite possibly the world). Review all the articles on

I'd argue that the Economist or the WSJ, both much more sympathetic to
Israel, are also quite influential, and the same experiment you
suggest in either would reveal quite different results.

>When only people like William Safire and A.M. Rosenthal are
>strongly supporting Israel in the U.S., Israel is in very deep
>trouble.

>Wrt to American funding of NATO vs. Israel: how much aid does the
>U.S. grant to Western Europeans on a per capita basis each year?

Good question.  How far back would you like to count?  50 years?
Should we not include the Marshal plan, which paid for the rebuilding
of Europe?

Per capita costs also miss an important measure: how many Americans
die in each theatre.  There are quite a few training deaths each year,
and many of those would not happen had Europe been defending itself
instead of building its economy, at our expense, for 50 years.

I'm opposed to foriegn aid.  All foriegn aid.  But I insist on seeing
it counted correctly, and when you do, Israels share seems rather
small.

>The enemy of Western Europe, the Soviet Union, was indeed until
>recently our enemy. Many of the enemies of Israel are America's
>friends. Many Americans resent Israel trying to dictate to us who

Really?  Our friends?  How about our suppliers?  The games they have
played with oil prices do not make them our freinds.  The fact that
Americans died for cheap oil disgusts me.

How many Saudis died defending their country?

Adam
Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all.  How true that is.
From: proberts@informix.com (Paul Roberts)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: No, This is the Quote of the year (was Re: Deportation vs. Murder)
Date: 7 Jan 93 17:39:05 GMT
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.

In article <Jan.7.01.11.28.1993.19649@bach.rutgers.edu> marwang@bach.rutgers.edu (Marwan Gharaybeh) writes:
>adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
>
>Actually you have been tricked ... There two quotes but with the same
>author. Mr Shostack (looks like he is english literature major) is the
>most illiterate english speaker ... See for yourselves.
>
>First he says ...
>
>>Insisting that you don't speak English very well.
>
>And then ... Boom ...
>
>>the words anti-Semite and semite are not related.
>
>--Marwan

For heaven's sake you guys, I thought it was clear enough by now:
if you are not 100% behind everything Israel does, however brutal,
then:

(a) if you are not Jewish, you are "anti-Semitic"

(b) if you are Jewish, then you are a "self-hating Jew"

I trust this clears up any confusion.
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:25115 soc.culture.arabic:6450 soc.culture.lebanon:5534
From: cubsfan@camelot.bradley.edu (Michael Silverman)
Subject: Re: jews as a race
Organization: Priests of the Temples of Syrinx
Date:  6 Jan 93 17:37:54 GMT

Well, if Jews are a race, then how would you explain someone
who converted to Judaiism?  After he/she converts, this
person would be observant, support Israel, keep kosher, etc, etc.

Could I "convert" to African-American? What about Chinese?

--
cubsfan@camelot.bradley.edu

"One likes to believe in the freedom of baseball" - Geddy Lee
From: jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: News from the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip.
Date: 8 Jan 93 10:28:09 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <4882@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:
~In article <1993Jan7.165622.12693@ennews.eas.asu.edu> makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:
~>In article <29951@castle.ed.ac.uk> jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson) writes:
~>
~># So the little girl was killed after she'd been warned and shot in the legs?
~># This story gets more and more absurd!!
~
~>	What is so absurd? and how do you know what environment the girl
~>was in (i.e. was she surrounded by others who were vicous threats)?
~>And Why didn't she just stop when she was told to?
~
~We cannot speculate on the surrounding circumstances, and it is a feeble
~excuse to suggest that she somehow deserved to be shot to death because
~of the environment that she was in.  The point is that Israeli soldiers
~have no mercy even when it comes to focusing their rath on little girls.
~
~>	I do not know what is more pathetic.  The parents of the girl for
~>encouraging to take an action they knew might get her killed just for
~>the PR, or Jeremy being duped by the PR.
~
~Just how is that you know that the girl's parents encouraged her?

You're forgetting, Makowsky knows *everything*. There are lots more where he
comes from, that's why they don't need to bother with trials in Israel.
-- 
===Jeremy Henderson===jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk=          

This message cost the net hundreds if not thousands of dollars.
Bloody good value if you ask me.
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Terrorism
Date: 12 Jan 1993 14:14:59 GMT
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: mickey.think.com

In article <1993Jan12.075004.25608@nuscc.nus.sg>, eng10511@nusunix1.nus.sg (RAM VIKASH TIWARY) writes:
|> 
|> 	Now that would depend on the circumstances.  For example action
|> of the kind mentioned by Ron carried out in a country at war would
|> certainly not be regarded as terrorism.  I would attempt at a better
|> definition:
|> 
|> 	TERRORISM is the use of random violence against non-combatants
|> or soldiers in peace time.  The action leading to death or injury is
|> carried out inspite of peaceful options by groups of extremists seeking
|> to subvert the political establishment.

I disagree with the above definition, insofar as it contains
the word random.  Does that mean that directed  violence against
non-combatants is not terrorism?

-- 
Shai Guday              | Knowing martial arts allows one to remain calm when
OS Software Engineer    | confronted by idiots, secure in the knowledge that
Thinking Machines Corp. | you could dismember them easily, while you calmly
Cambridge, MA           | proceed to dismember them easily.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: ifaz706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu
Subject: Re: Policing the Territories
Organization: University of Texas @ Austin
Date: 12 Jan 93 22:44:23 CST

In article <765355d7300625t259@witsend.uucp>, "D. C. Sessions" <dcs@witsend.tnet.com> writes:
> 
>   A good first step would be to establish a joint constabulary with
>   both Israeli and local members chartered to maintain order locally.
>   Cynics on both sides object to this, however.  One Palestinian
>   objection is based on the slippery-slope argument.  Israeli cynics
>   add a couple more: (a) the life expectancy of the Palestinian
>   'collaberators' involved would be too short to measure, and


	A _real_ cynic mah who omer? That the life expectancy
	of "collaborators" can't get any shorter.


>   (2) any community involved in such a program would become a target
>   for outsiders bent on scuttling the effort.


	So what? At least the targets (on both sides) will 
	be identifiable. Organize the mess.

 
>   How many of us can agree *in*principle* that this approach would be
>   a good *first*step*?  Of those who do agree, do any of you have
>   answers to the cynical objections?


	Let me remind you that, in principle, this was the state
	of affairs before the intifadah. I think that, in principle,
	any agreement is a good first step.



> 
> --- D. C. Sessions                            Speaking for myself ---
> --- Note new network address:                dcs@witsend.tnet.com ---
> --- Author (and everything else!) of TMail  (DOS mail/news shell) ---


Noam
From: mmdh@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (Mazen Mokhtar)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Leaving
Date: 7 Jan 93 20:23:31 GMT
Organization: AT&T

Assalamu `alaykum,

  I know that John is most likely no longer on the net, but I hope my reply
can reach him anyway (Anisa: Hint hint!)

In article <4872@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:

>This is my last email on the net due to connection loss.  For everyone 
>that I've allied or battled with, have a good life.

  It is unfortunate that you have to leave. May Allah bless you and make
you successful. I'll miss you and I wish you well.

> I'll miss all of you, I'll miss reminding all of you of the fact that 
>Palestine is a stolen land, and Israel is illegally established 
>on that land, and justice shall prevail Insha`ALLAH.  

  In sha'a Allah. "Ma Da`a Haqqun wara'ahu muTalib."

>REMINDER TO ALL MUSLIMS:  "WA EDDO LAHOM MASTATATOM MIN QUWWATIN WA MIN RIBAT
>ALKHAIL TORHIBOONA BIHI ADOWWA ALLAHI WA ADOWWAKOM"  SADAQA ALLAH AL AZEEM.

  I love this verse. Truly Allah is Most Wise.

>I'll be married soon, and I'll be moving back to Lebanon soon too.  WISH ME
>GOOD LUCK.

  May Allah bless you, your wife and your children. I am happy for you and I
wish you every success. I also ask that Allah grants you pious children who
are afraid of nothing beyond Allah, and who can learn and apply the verse you
quoted.

>ASSALAMO ALAIKUM and Good Bye.

Wa `alaykum assalamu wa raHmatullahi wa barakatuh.

Your brother in Islam, Mazen Mokhtar
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:25169 alt.revisionism:886 soc.history:10662
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,alt.revisionism,soc.history
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: Holocaust Almanac: The Liberation of Buchenwald
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 93 19:59:06 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <1993Jan11.130103.15924@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) writes:

>[Speaking of the liberation of Buchenwald, and the death of the American
>president, Franklin Roosevelt, author Abram Sachar paints a surrealistic
>picture of an American officer, who requests the freed prisoners at
>Buchenwald to participate in a tribute/memorial to FDR...]

In 1941, while the Jews were being assembled for their doom in the Nazi
concentration camps, the Armenian volunteers in Germany formed the first
Armenian battalion to fight alongside the Nazis. In 1943, this battalion 
had grown into eight battalions of 20,000-strong under the command of the
former guerilla leader Dro (the butcher), who was the former dictator of the
short-lived Armenian Dictatorship (1918-1920) and the architect of the 
cold-blooded genocide of 2.5 million Turks and Kurds between 1914-1920.
An Armenian National Council was formed by the notorious Dashnak Party 
leaders in Berlin, which was recognized by the Nazis. Encouraged by 
this, the Armenians summarily formed a provisional government that endorsed 
and espoused fully the principles of the Nazis and declared themselves as the 
members of the Aryan super race and full participants to Hitler's policy of 
extermination of the Jews.

This Armenian-Nazi conspiracy against the Jews during WWII was an "encore"
performance staged by the Armenians during WWI, when they back-stabbed and
exterminated 2.5 million Muslims by colluding with the invading Russian army.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.'    (Sahak Melkonian)
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Jeremy and kindler, gentler democracy (was drivel about Deportations)
Date: 7 Jan 1993 15:37:09 GMT
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: galaxy.think.com

In article <29949@castle.ed.ac.uk>, jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson) writes:
|> 
|> It always gives me a good laugh to see comments on Northern Ireland from
|> dimwits across the herring pond. Compare and contrast:
|> 
|> The Birmingham Six: Mistakenly imprisoned after a trial, later released after
|> much public outrage and serious examination of the judicial system.

Right, but if I were to react to this as palestinian advocates do to Israeli
problems, I could say the following:

1. This shows that the judicial system there is faulty.
2. How many others have been imprisoned undeservedly and have
   not yet been discovered?
3. Given that this occurred, this is an example of a major malady
   in the system.
4. The system is still corrupt, merely this one mistake has been remedied.

etc...

Look familiar?

|> Ghaza Strip: A place where little girls throw stones.
|> 

And big men use explosives and assault rifles.

|> Belfast: A place where armed men leave Semtex.

Hmm, whats did you say was the difference?


-- 
Shai Guday              | Knowing martial arts allows one to remain calm when
OS Software Engineer    | confronted by idiots, secure in the knowledge that
Thinking Machines Corp. | you could dismember them easily, while you calmly
Cambridge, MA           | proceed to dismember them easily.
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:25165 soc.culture.greek:12168
From: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Palestinian Deportees
Date: 10 Jan 93 17:18:40 GMT
Reply-To: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Organization: North Carolina State University

In article <1993Jan9.221204.21986@nysernet.org>, astein@nysernet.org
(Alan Stein) writes:
> hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem) writes:
> 
> >> >According to the BBC (31-12-92, 0400 UTC) the French foreign minister
> >> >has proposed that the UN peacekeeping forces in Lebanon take charge of
> >> >the welfare of the 415 Palestinians forced out of the country by Israel.
> >> >Yasser Arafat has expressed interest in this proposal.
> >> 
> >> The Arabs have rejected the proposal, preferring to make propaganda
> >> hay at the expense of their brethren.
> 
> >Has it been rejected?
> 
> Yes.  See above.
> 
> > By whom?
> 
> By the Lebanese, obviously, since that's whose territory the
> terrorists are on.

Judging from the Israeli artillery bombardment around the camp several
days ago, the camp is definitely situated in Israeli "controlled" land.

> > I have not heard any more about this
> >matter since 31-12-92. In any case, local villagers have been bringing
> >in food and other supplies, despite your apparent allegations that there
> >is no sympathy.
> 
> That's how they get their cake and eat it too.  They smuggle in
> supplies, so the terrorists have no real needs unmet, but still get to
> complain about Israel depriving them.

According to the BBC (various news reports from the past few days),
there are at least 200 of the deportees who are ill. Israel refused
entry to the man suffering from liver disease whom the Red Cross had
tried to bring out along with a 16 year old boy that Israel claims it
deported by mistake. Furthermore, it appears that Israel will not allow
the other 9 Palestinians deported "by mistake" to return through Israeli
lines. The BBC also reports that the Israeli government is trying to
pressure the US government to "crack down" on US supporters of Hamas.
This, they say, is an attempt by Israel to take attention away from the
plight of the deportees. The BBC also reports the brazen position of
such Israeli officials as Zalman Shoval who boast that the US government
will prevent any UN enforcement of the Security Council resolution
demanding Israel allow the deportees back.

> -- 
> Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org

Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: PLO Hires an Israeli ex-con to Kill Israeli Leaders
Date: 11 Jan 93 09:51:45 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

In article <1991@spam.ua.oz> jaskew@spam.ua.oz (Joseph Askew) writes:
>In article <1993Jan4.172827.27000@cs.brown.edu> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
>
>>If anyone has been following the details of the arrest of the
>>Israeli ex-con (from Rishon Le'tzion) who was hired by top
>>PLO officials to kill Israeli leaders, can he post about it?
>>The story broke out last Friday.
>
>Come on, there has only been an *allegation* that this man had been
                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>hired by 'the PLO' or at least I have heard nothing more.
>Joseph Askew

Simmilarly , there was only an *allegation* that Oswald murdered J.P.
Keneddy he was never convicted for that crime.

Gideon Ehrlich
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: eng10511@nusunix1.nus.sg (RAM VIKASH TIWARY)
Subject: Freedom fighter or Terrorist
Organization: National University of Singapore
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 04:28:43 GMT

	The two words freedom fighter and terrorist have been applied
variously to countless groups and organisations over the centuries.  The
former has positive connotations while the latter is negative.

	What is the essential difference between the two.  As far as I
can see they are interchangeable.  The chcice of term depends on which
side you are on.  For example most Arabs would regard the PLO as an
organisation consisting of 'freedom fighters' who aspire to 'liberate' the
land and are willing to sacrifice their life in the process.  The
Israelis label the PLO 'a Terrorist Organisation'.  The same can be said
of the IRA and other such organisations.

	The word terrorist has however been applied to such a variety of
groups or persons that distinctions are called for.  Two wide categories
can be discerned.  One is the nationalistically motivated group
comprising of individuals of a particular ethnic group or religion who
resort to violence in order to further their goals of independance or
secession.  The other is the anarchist.  Comprising of individuals with
extreme views, this group often target politicians and persons of
inportance.  Their motive is to destabile the established order.

	The application of the term freedom fighter to the former category
may be justified but the term would definitely not apply the the latter.
Who would regard the Red Army faction of Italy as an organisation
of freedom fighters.

	The two groups mentioned above often cooperate with each other
when it is expedient to do so.  The is some hence some confusion where
we draw the line between them.

	Therefore like the saying goes your freedom fighter might well
be my terrorist and vice-versa.
From: ifaz706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Civilized behaviour
Date: 6 Jan 93 21:13:03 GMT
Organization: University of Texas @ Austin

In article <43093@sdcc12.ucsd.edu>, revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans) writes:

> 	Incidentally, it was too late to save the girl, and the
> 	killer was released because evidence obtained under torture
> 	was inadmissible.  He later commandeered a school bus 
> 	and...well, I won't ruin the ending.


	Go ahead, make my day...	:-)


> -- 
> Ron Evans (revans@math.ucsd.edu)


Noam
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:25272 soc.culture.greek:12192 soc.history:10693
From: ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP (Tsiel Ohayon)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Nobel prize for Rabin
Date: 5 Jan 93 23:54:02 GMT
Organization: James Capel Pacific Limited, Tokyo Japan

In article <1483500316@igc.apc.org> Center for Policy Research writes:

[CPR] I do not know who is proposing Mr. Rabin for Nobel Prize.

It reminds me of a story when Pr. Asher Peres, a Physics Professor at the
Technion (Israel Institue of Technlogy) proposed Premier Begin as Physics 
Nobel prize winner. They asked him why, and he said:

"If he can get the Peace Nobel prize, he can surely get the Physics one!"

Tsiel


-- 
----8<--------------------------------------------------------------->8------
Tsiel:ohayon@jcpl.co.jp	   | If you do not receive this E-mail, please let me
Employer may not have same | know as soon as possible, if possible.
opinions, if any !         | Two percent of zero is almost nothing.
From: revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: jews as a race
Date: 11 Jan 93 08:24:48 GMT

kgivon@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (karen lee givon) writes:

>I don't want to sound rude here but, really, this is an internal matter.
>It is our business who we can marry.  It's not a matter
>of debate for non Jews. 

	This is not just an internal matter, for it affects non-Jews
	(those in love with Jews, for one example).  A debate should
	be open to anyone who can contribute, Jew or non-Jew.

	Debates on Islam are more relevant here than debates on
	Judaism, however, in view of the political ramifications
	(e.g., the Hamas Covenant refers to Islam as its driving
	force and insists that all of Palestine must submit to Islamic
	rule).
-- 
Ron Evans (revans@math.ucsd.edu)