From: parker@ehsn5.cen.uiuc.edu (Robert S. Parker)
Subject: Re: You ARE killing
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 06:38:15 GMT

an4149@anon.penet.fi writes:

>You state that because a fetus may not survive without intervention outside the
>womb that it is not a life and therefore may be terminated at our convenience.

The proper terminology is that it is not a "person".  (They may be arguing
that it's "life" is entwined with the mother and is thus not *separate*, which
is not quite the same thing as *not a life*.)

>After birth, and for some years children are not capable of surviving without
>intervention, therefore we should be able terminate their life when they become
>an inconvenience. 

>The majority homeless and poor in our society would not be able to survive if 
>it were not for outside intervention of some form, we should therefore be able
>to terminate their life when they become an inconvenience.

Of course, it depends on how strict a requirement of independence you impose.
Most educated adults would not be able to survive on their own either.  We
*all* depend on the rest of society to provide certain things (in exchange
for other services).  A reasonable requirement would be that they are
physically capable of assimilating available resources without additional
processing.  Since infants are quite capable of digesting milk, they would
satisfy this.  (A late-term fetus might, also, but that is hard to show.)
On the other hand, for most of a pregnancy the child does not satisfy even
this simple requirement.

The survival of the homeless, etc, you refer to is a trait of society, not of
physiology.  The only difference between them and the rest of society is that
society is not willing to provide food, etc, for them since they can not give
anything in exchange (no money or job, assumed).  They could certainly survive
by stealing and such (and get thrown in jail, where they would also survive
unless someone kills them).  The difference with the unborn (aside from late-
term) is that the resources can not come from society directly, but *must* be
pre-processed by the mother.  Thus your "parallel arguments" (a good name for
this technique, eh?) are quite off the mark.

>Granted these arguments are absurd, but no more so than those that state that a
>fetus is not a human life.  Argueably it does not experience life as we know it
>but, does this make its life any less than our own?

Not only are your attempts at "parallel arguments" flawed in design, but you
now try to use them to argue against an incorrect implication.  Lack of
independence does not say anything about whether something is a "human life"
or not.  Obviously they are human, which is why people who use independence
arguments usually use the term "person".  (meaning independence is required
in a person)

Hmmm...
Does not experience life as we know it  ----->
A: its life is greater than ours.
B: its life is the same as ours, just different.
C: its life is less than ours.

Well, A is absurd and B is highly questionable; that leaves C as the most
reasonable answer.

>We demand that responsible pet owners spay and nueter or otherwise prevent 
>their pets from mating to control unplanned and unwanted pet pregnancies.
>We are willing to make these decisions concerning our pets, but we will not
>take similar responsibility over our own animal instincts.

Well, not everyone *does* take care of such things, and do you know what
happens to the puppies and kittens (or whatever else) that can't be cared
for?

>During an abortion, you are taking a life.  Your actions and motives determine
>YOUR true worth as a human being.

Just hypothetically...if some created a sentient android, would you expect it
to follow laws such as:  don't kill?  If it *did* follow such laws, would you
then give it worth as a "human being"?  (You really mean "person" here, not
"human being".)  If you give it such worth, would you consider the destruction
of it to be "murder".  (This includes painlessly "turning it off".)

-Rob
Newsgroups: talk.abortion