From: selvakum@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca (C.R.Selvakumar - Electrical Engineering)
Subject: Tamil and Telugu ( was Similarity between Telugu and Tamil )
Keywords: Tamil and Telugu
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 23:45:04 GMT


In article <1992Aug25.233858.8685@news.uiowa.edu>, rachada@icaen.uiowa.edu (Ramakrishna Chada) writes:

> In article <BtJo2u.5Lx@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca> selvakum@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca (C.R.Selvakumar - Electrical Engineering) writes:
> >In article <19855@plains.NoDak.edu>, ksrao@POWER.EEE.NDSU.NODAK.EDU writes:
> >> In article <1992Aug24.064445.5927@news.uiowa.edu>, rachada@icaen.uiowa.edu (Ramakrishna Chada) writes:
> >> >As far as the cultural common ground is concerned, I have no doubt about that.
> >> >
> >> >It is quite commonly said that the languages Telugu and Tamil are similar. However,
> >> >this opinion seems to have been voiced by Tamilians who do not know Telugu.  
> >> >If it is the structure of the language that was referred to, may be it is so.
> >> >But if you are speaking of the vocabulary there is almost nothing in common.
> >> 
> >>      This is a place where I beg to differ. What the author says is true if you
> >> consider only written Telugu. All classical Telugu literature uses a lot of
> >                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >> words of Samskrita origin. But most of the spoken Telugu still has a lorge
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
> >> majority of words which do not have Samskrita as the origin; true those words
> >  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >          a revised DED but I've not seen it.] Therefore it is quite
> >          incorrect to say that the Tamil/Dravidian words are only a handful
> >          as Ramakrishna Chada says. Your point that the spoken Telugu has
> >          majority of words which are not from Samskritam ( but from 
> >          dravidian stock) is significant because they are precisely
> >          "more live" words ( some poets use these to impart certain
> >          immediacy ). Also I feel that the vocabulary of different
> 
> As I said earlier, even if the roots of many "spoken" Telugu words are 
> dravidian, it is difficult/impossible for a Telugu-only speaking person to
             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> understand many pure tamil words. On the other hand it would be possible to 
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> convey many things using samskritam words, even if the words used are not the
> most commonly used words in spoken Telugu. In other words, there are well
> "understood" samskritam words that are equivalents of the words in spoken
> Telugu. 
                 
                The argument " many pure tamil words" will be difficult
                to understand for a telugu-only speaking person is too
                vague a statement. I believe, by this you are not 
                conveying anything substantive [ I submit no offence meant]. 
                Can you please explain what
                you mean by "pure tamil words" and qualify ( or rather
                quantify) "many" a bit more tangibly ? If thousands of
                words [as I mentioned before see M.B. Emeneau's Dravidian
                etymological dictionary (DED)]  *including* most of 
                the *basic* words _and_ the
                syntax are related to Tamil, I don't understand why you
                do not consider this as a more fundemental similarity between
                Telugu and Tamil as hundreds of scholars have already
                amply demonstrated. 

                Also, I would ask you- when you say that the Samskritham
                words are "understood", by whom ? Please don't consider
                urban and pundit-folks only; would you say that the 
                ordinary villagers would understand ?    
                
>  
> >          Finally I would like to point out that the structure ( syntax)
> >          is more characteristic of a language than the vocabulary
> >          ( English is a Germanic language although it has very large
> >            borrowings from the latanic languages such as French,
> >            Spanish,Italian). Based on the structure most of the 
> >          Indian lnaguages might look closer to tamil than to Samskritam. 
> >          
> 
> Understanding of the language comes first in feeling a closeness to the 
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> particular language. Similar structure might help you learn a new language with
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> less effort. 


           Here again, I honestly don't understand what you mean. What
           do you mean by "in feeling a closeness"? If you feel "hastham"
           sounds great and want to teach your child this in preference to
           "chey" it's fine, but I'm genuinely interested in knowing whether
           common folks also feel this way. [ please be honest (-: )
> 
> >> are not in present day Tamil but were part of Tamil a few centuries ago. Just
> >> record your normal conversation with your friends and try to find out how many
> >> words have their origin in Sanskritam and how many do not.
> >> 
> >> >
> >> >Ramakrishna
> >> K. Sankara Rao                          e-mail ksrao@power.eee.ndsu.nodak.edu
> >> 
> >
> >          If some knowledgeable Telugu nettors will care to list 
> >          (1) the parts of human body - say like you may teach a child
> >          (2) the relationaships like father, mother, sister ( elder, younger)..
> >          (3) the basic words used in everyday language like milk, water,
> >              river, mountain, field, and such natural things
> >          (4) the numbers
> >
> >          then one can see the deep connections between Tamil and telugu.
> >
> >          anbudan (= with regards )
> >
> >          Selva Selvakumar
> 
> Here are some common words and my understanding in the brackets. 
> 
> hand : cheyi (dravidian origin, commonly used in speaking). 
>        hastam (sanskrit origin, well understood)
         ^^^^^^

          For your interest "a lot of people" including me will understand
          this in tamil naadu but probably not an ordinary person in TN.
          Also, "hand" will be understood as well as "hastam" (-: by the same
         folks or even by more number of folks.
> head : tala (dravidian origin, commonly used in speaking)
>        shirassu(samskrit origin, well understood)
         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
          In tamil naadu almost every one will understand this ( but as
          "sirasu" (-: ). I know that this word is attributed to Skt
           origin but I beg to differ. [ I'm not convinced that it's
           Skt origin, I can pitch in my views if you tell me how this
           is a Skt. word ] As an aside, many indians think that if a word
           is found in Skt and tamil, they kinda assume that tamil borrowed
           from Skt., unfortunately I don't . Tamil and Skt. are both
           equally ancient and no one has proven that one is older than the
           other and the "borrowing" has occured both ways from very ancient
           days and thus proving loan words are a bit involved except in the
           case of Tamil there is a continuity of spoken tradition and thus
           one can relate to the sense more reliably, I would guess. 
> water : neellu/neeru (samskrit origin) jalam(samskrit origin, well understood)
                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
          I think your understanding is not accurate. Here is a clear 
          example; it is acknowledged by international 
          experts that "neer" is a dravidan word and Skt. borrowed this word
          and so please don't say it's of Skt. origin without providing some 
          fresh new ideas. Interestingly, the word
          "jalam" is also a dravidian word and not of Skt.origin ! [it's not
          my theory, although I too held this view based on my own reasoning]
          This may be more of a surprise to Tamils than to Telugus. I suggest
          you see Dr. Sunit Kumar Chatterji's famous work " The origin and
          Development of the Bengali language" George Allen & Unwin Ltd.
          1970. pages 65 and 66.
                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
            [ Dr. S.K.Chatterji says Bengali "jhola" occurences in 
              numerous place names
              denoting/related-to water, waterways, salaiva  ..are 
             "definitely dravidian"(page 66). He cites Kannada "jollu" 
              Telugu "dzollu" meaning salaiva, and kannada 
              "joru" = drip, flow, trickle.
              But he *does not* cite Tamil "sori" = to trickle ( note the 
              Tamil usage kaNNeer sori = to shed tears,{kaNNeer = tear}], 
              Tamil salathi = sea (= tamil "kadal"), 
              Tamil sala_thaarai = hole for draining water/drain_way, 
                      [ from these you might even guess that in tamil
                        salam means either salt water or impure water
                        whereas neer means pure water- I've other 
                        reasons to make this suggestion]
              and most importantly the tamil
              doublet "sala-sala" = the sound of water as in " neer
              odaiyil sala sala enRu odiyathu" = The water in the brook/ 
              stream ( Odai = brook/stream from Tamil 'Odu' = run/flow)
              moves with the sound "sala_sala"; 
              and even the verbal
              form "sala_salaththal" = to make the sound of water splashing.
              In tamil too "j/soLLu" means salaiva, note usages as
              "joLLu_vaayan" for deaf-and-dumb persons; "joLLu
              kottikkoNdu utkaarnthu iruppaan"= he will be sitting 
              with joLLu dripping ( out of gaping interest). ]

             The tamil root meaning of "salam" = "jalam" is that which
             !*moves*!. This is why sometimes a Tamil also uses 
             "sala_sala_ththal" = (impersonal) to move ( not just about 
             water only but more generally, although usually used in 
             the contexts where prior quietitude/tranquility is supposed)

             Thus although Dr. S.K.Chatterji does not quote the tamil
             occurences, it is quite clear to me and I concur with 
             Dr. Chatterji that "jala" is of dravidian origin.
             Don't *always* believe your Samskrit pundit (-: .
             Many of the "pure" Telugu/Tamil words he ( the Skt pundit)
             would say came from Skt. (-:
             
> milk : paalu(dravidian origin) 
> river : Nadhi (samskrit origin)
          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
            I know that many claim that this is a Skt word. I beg to differ.
            I believe that it comes from tamil "nada" = to walk, to move
            > nadai/nadi > nadhi [ I'm not asserting right now, but if you
            or some can show how this word nadhi comes from Skt root, I'll
            show my evidence/arguments that it is not an Indo=European-origin 
            word but probably a dravidian ( = Tamil/Telugu...) word. 

> mountain : parvatham (samskrit origin)
             ^^^^^^^^^
               I don't believe that it's of Skt. origin. It's true
               it's used in Skt. In tamil "paru" means "big" "massive" "hard". 
               The Tamil words "porppu" "poRai" mean mountain. I can expand
               the argument if you need later on. I believe that "parvatham"
               is of tamil origin and not Skt. 

> mother : Amma(origin?, I know its the same in tamil but the samksrit "mata" is
>          not far off. Do they have a common origin?)
> father : Naanna, baapu, ayya etc. (dravidian origin)
>          pita (samskrit origin, well understood)
           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
            In tamil too this is well understood.

> numbers : okati, rendu, moodu (very similar to tamil numbers)
> 
> Other common words          
> 
> Emi : what?
> Ekkada : Where?
> Enta : How much?
> Ela : How?
> 
> I think though these words are of dravidian origin it would be difficult to 
                                                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> understand the tamil equivalents which share the common dravidian origin.
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

         I think if you spend half as much effort as you probably spend on Skt.
         learning/improving on Tamil, you would change your opinion!

>  
> There is a quite a bit of simiilarity in the most basic words like relationships,
> parts of the human body and numbers. This shows the dravidian origin of Telugu.
> However, as I said there are samskritam equivalents which can be understood as
                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> they are, without referring to some dictionary about how to derive one word 
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> from another.
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> shreyobhilashi (= well wisher)

          This is probably because of your awareness and interest of
          Skt. and not because Telugu is closer to Skt than to
          Tamil. 

          In tamil too "abhilaashai" was used in TN to mean desire 
          some 40-50 years ago ( still used in some circles) and is 
          still popularly used in Sri lanka and shreyas meaning best or
          excellent is understood by many tamils ( not by common folks) 
          including me and I can recognize the "shi" ending which possibly
          means "one who has .." and thus i can understand shreyobhilashi as
          well wisher as well as you do in telugu. I believe that if you
          tell "shreyobhilashi" to a villager in Andhra, he might not
          understand you as one (-: [ please note this is just my guess,
          I have not lived in Andhra to any significant period of time to
          say this with any degree of confidence] 
          But this does not mean that
          you will not understand Tamil "kaNN_neer" = tear ( kaNN= eye and
          neer = water ). In Tamil 'thaN' means "cold" very similar to
          Hindi "tanda" and thaN_neer means cold water and my guess is
          a Telugu might not have to spend any more effort to understand
          this than "shreyobhilashi" ( if S/he is one (-: ) 
> 
> Ramakrishna  

          anbudan ( = with regards)

          Selva Selvakumar   ( selvakum@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca)
Xref: sparky soc.culture.tamil:1939 soc.culture.indian:30324