From: abde@troi.cc.rochester.edu (Tamer A. Abdelgawad)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: Arab  U N I T Y
Summary: On the definition of civilization, and other stuff.
Date: 24 Nov 92 04:22:32 GMT
Organization: University of Rochester (Rochester, NY)

In article <By6CuH.CpA@newsflash.concordia.ca> ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira) writes:
>In article <1992Nov20.210838.2308@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> abde@troi.cc.rochester.edu (Tamer A. Abdelgawad) writes:
>>>         
>>>>The people of Iraq, Syria, and Egypt
>>>>developed writing, religions, Literature, architectures, and world scale
>>>>economies thousands of years ago. They have done it while the Europeans, who
>>>>control every thing we do now, were still food gatherers. Do you know anything
>>>>about history?.
>>>
>Then...
>>
>>This 'ignorant idiot' (that's me) would like to point out that there were
>>neither Christians nor Muslims involved in any conceivable way with the
>>civilizations referred to above.  (Hint: B.C. means before christ :-))
>>
>>Tamer AAbdelgawad
>
>Those Egyptians who identify with "Firaoun" rather than with being
>ARabs first of all don't know what they are saying, and second are nothing
>but westernized individuals who took from the western civilization nothing
>but its most ugly side (the worship of power).
>
>From an Islamic point of view, those so called civilizations above were
>states of savagery where there is a king, his army, and the rest are slaves.
>this is true of all precivilized societies (Roman, Indian, Persian, Egyptian,
>and others).
>

I don't know why you are putting this in a reply to my post:  I neither
Identify with Firaoun, not that there is anything wrong with that, nor do
I worship power.

You are quoting incorrectly, *and* out of context (bad... bad! ;-) ).  The
first quote, which starts "The people of Iraq,..." is not mine (this is
clearly indicated in my post).  It was made by A. Faris in the context of
a discussion about civilizations in the middle east, and the fact that
Islam was not the only one.  The general discussion, of course, is about
Arab/Islamic unity, and it is those who are arguing pro-unity that want
the power of the Islamic empire back.  How clever of you to turn everything
on its head!

>Malik Ibn Nabi (a prominent philosopher) mentions that societies go through
>three stages:
>1)Precivilization
>2)Civilization
>3)Post-civilization (decay)
>
>In my opinion here is a comparison between the Muslim and western worlds:
>Region:		Middle East	Europe/America	
>Stage 1		Pre-Islam	Pre-renaissance
>Stage 2		Varies          about 1800's
>Stage 3 	From 1400's	1960's and on
>
>The degree of civilization here is measured in terms of
>1)The status of the the general population (social, psychological,
>intellectual, and economical). Here, a negligible minority will not
>grant the whole population "civilized status'
>2)The effectivity of the use of all available resources (human and
>natural) for the advancement of the above mentioned status.

Thank you for your opinion.  Go find 100 native speakers of English and
ask them whether Egypt of the Pharoahs was a 'civilization'.  You'll  
probably get 95-100 'yes' answers.  Oh well, maybe it's all western
propaganda!

Tamer Abdelgawad.