HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: conty@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (E. Kontei)
Subject: Re: BTAS: Vertigo / Intro to Ra's 'N Talia
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 05:06:21 GMT

In article <1992Nov24.020706.20094@tc.fluke.COM>, moriarty@tc.fluke.COM (The Napoleon of Crime) writes:
> A so-so episode.

You know, I think this is the first time I've disagreed with you on just
about everything you've said.

I kinda liked the episode.  I couldn't believe I'd be saying the following:
having a typical superhero story made for a refreshing change
of pace in THIS interpretation of the character.  Not that I want many
more like this, mind you, but it made for a nice change of pace.  Besides,
I LIKE villains with big red capes and bad accents.  :-)

> I've never been too fond of either Ra's Al Ghul or Talia; both (particularly
> Talia) have that simplistic tone that Denny O'Neil was using back in the 70s
> (and now, for all I know) when he was bring Bats back to it's "primal" side.

Again, Ra's Al Ghul is one of my favorite Batman villains.  A classic
mastermind-type.  I was rather dissapointed by this rendition (see below).

> (I notice, BTW, that O'Neil gets story credit in the credits.  Nice touch,
> Warners.)

They usually credit the original story, if there was one.  A similar thing
was done when the episode based on "No Hope in Crime Alley" was shown.

> [David] Warner could play Ra's in person with ease, though.

I'll take your word for it.  (BTW, who *is* David Warner?)
However, I had always pictured Al Ghul with a deeper voice,
and a smidgen of a British accent.  And this version looked like
Nostromo (sp?) from PROPHECY OF DOOM, with a better robe.

> PS  Gee, I was sure we were going to see some deaths during the opening 5
> minutes.  "Amnesia gas", my foot. :-)

Not amnesia, MINDBLANK gas.  Truly a fate worse than death.
-- 
			    E n r i q u e  C o n t y
			The Incredible Man-with-no-Life
			      jester@ihlpm.att.com
		    Disclaimer: You're not dealing with AT&T
Newsgroups: rec.arts.animation
From: mae@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Mary Anne Espenshade)
Subject: Re: BTAS  11/16: Heart of Steel
Organization: Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Lab
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 21:51:19 GMT

In article <1992Nov17.170716.12763@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>
conty@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (E. Kontei) writes:
>I got a laugh out of Brenda's (sp?) car license plate: "RUR".  Extra
>points to whoever can post the source for THAT in-joke... :-)

I thought her name sounded like Randa (for random access maybe?, that
was certainly her function).  You didn't give us a chance to answer your
quiz here :-).  As several others have already pointed out, RUR is from
Karl Capek's "Rossum's Universal Robots". Keeping up with the references
in this one (Dr. Karl Rossum, with Sabastian's voice yet, the
Terminator-like construction process) was a full time job.  The one I
want to mention that nobody has pointed out yet was the appearance of
the one type of the robot skeleton, the one that first appeared as the
trash can following Barbara.  It's a design out of a Fleisher Superman
cartoon, more recently used repeatedly by Miyazaki in a Lupin episode
and in Laputa.
--
Mary Anne Espenshade
ARPA: mae@aplpy.jhuapl.edu
UUCP: ...!allegra!mimsy!aplcen!aplpy!mae
From: johnsonchris@bvc.edu (Crispy Critter)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.animation
Subject: Re: The DUMBEST saturday cartoon ever
Date: 23 Nov 92 22:20:15 CDT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Buena Vista College, Storm Lake, IA


"SSSSSSSSSSSPPPPPPPPPPPPPAAAAAAAACCCCCCCCEEEEEEE 
GGGGGGGGGHHHHHHOOSSSSSTTT!!!!"
-Gary Owens

Or perhaps not, there are some space ghost fans out there, I think.  
(Especially R&S fans ('Cling Tenaciously to my Buttocks!"))

--CLJ
From: Corey_Lynn_Nelson@cup.portal.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.animation
Subject: Re: Aeon Flux
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 00:23:59 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)

Well, I wrote my letter to MTV! With signatures of some of my friends that 
love AEON FLUX and Liguid TV too!
 
      -=<< Corey L. Nelson >>=-
   corey_lynn_nelson@cup.portal.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.animation,rec.arts.disney
From: andyi@world.std.com (Andy G Ihnatko)
Subject: Re: Belle's Character (was Re: Sanitizing Fantasia)
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 07:57:33 GMT

avatar@wings.micro.umn.edu (Timothy Fay) writes:

>Andy G Ihnatko (andyi@world.std.com) wrote:
>>
>>First, unlike most Disney heroines up to that point, she makes it
>>abundantly clear that she wants nothing to do with marriage...

>Which is, of course, why she goes ahead and marries the Beast at the end
>of the film (but only _after_ he's turned into Arnold Schwarzenegger :) ).

Cut her some slack...she wasn't even sure that was really _him_ until she saw
his eyes...

>>Second, when her dad is captured, she goes out to find
>>him and when she does, even though she's been told to get out of there as fast
>>as possible, she sacrifices herself to save him.

>Yes, but my point was that she found herself in this unfortunate situation
>as a result of her father's bungling and not as a result of her own actions.
>It would have been different if, for example, Belle had decided to stay with
>the Beast of her own volition, and not because of some threat to her father.

>Contrast that with other Disney cartoons, even a recent one like THE
>GREAT MOUSE DETECTIVE.  When Basil was captured by Ratigan he had to rely
>on his intellect (with a little prodding from Dawson) to make his escape.
>No one came to his rescue--he rescued himself.

>>At every turn, Belle (like Beauty in the original tale) makes her decisions
>>based on her own instincts and conclusions rather than on what's expected or
>>demanded of her.

>But the situations she was in were created by other characters, and not
>by her own will or actions.  As I said earlier, Belle reacts to events,
>she does not create them, and that is not the hallmark of a "strong"
>character.


Ah, I see...and Basil just thought "Hey, it'd be fun to jump into a disguise
and infiltrate the lair of an Evil Genius tonight, so I'd hae a devilishly
clever trap to escape from!  Hell, nothing but "Designing Women" on the tube
tonight..."  Basil's doing what he's doing chiefly because he wants
to get the girl out of a jam, just like Belle does to save Maurice...

>>Hell, the reprise of "Belle" proves this beyond a shadow of a doubt...

>How?

She sings a reprise to the effect of "Yeah, right, like I'd ever marry a
dweeb like that, become a little wifey..."  Seems pretty straightforward.



-- Andy Ihnatko
   andyi@world.std.com
From: ray.rooney@satalink.com (Ray Rooney) 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.animation
Subject: Re: Why no cartoons before movies???
Date: 23 Nov 92 17:34:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Datamax/Satalink Connection * Ivyland, PA (215) 443-9434
Reply-To: ray.rooney@satalink.com (Ray Rooney) 

TO: conty@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (E. Kontei)

EK>In article <3671.1008.uupcb#satalink.com>, ray.rooney@satalink.com (Ray Roon
EK>writes:
EK>>
EK>> Some theatres, mostly those showing old movies, do run shorts, usually
EK>> from some collection. There is no longer a dependable source for shorts
EK>> so first-run chains couldn't get them even if they did want to run them.

EK>Actually, the local 6-matchboxes second-run multiplex does run
EK>shorts before their features.  Warner Brothers stuff, natch.  :-)

Yes, they are making shorts available at the moment. The UA theatres
here also run them. It may be an exclusive deal, though.

Interesting aside: A privately-owned theatre here was running Pink
Panther and Chilly Willy cartoons before its features a few years ago.
The odd thing is the PP films seemed to be the TV stuff without those
awful laugh-tracks. Anyone else run into these?

 * SLMR 2.1a * Don't take life too seriously, it's not permanent.
From: aa664@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan Scott Tuskes)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.animation
Subject: More Animation Books
Date: 21 Nov 1992 05:31:07 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: aa664@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan Scott Tuskes)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu



A couple more words on animation books...

The Kodak "World of Animation" book has plans for an amazingly
versatile animation stand in it that anybody with a little
time, floor space and is good with 2x4 lumber can build.

"Cartoon Animation For Everyone" by Alan Cleave - 1977 Fountain Press
a good handbook for beginners with info on equipment, technique, etc.
geared toward Super-8 production. 

"Handbook of Animation Technique" by Eli Levitan - 1979 Van Nostrand
Reinhold Company - Somewhat technical, but well written from the aspect
of a commercial animator's perspective (all the examples are from old
television commercials) Covers motion, timing, sound, effects, etc. A
very complete book.

"Technique of Special Effects Cinematography" - Ray Fielding - 1968 
Hastings House, do know there is a newer edition from the 80's
Not really an animation book, per se, but covers all manner of
image manipulation such as matte painting, optical printing, etc.
The ONE book one must read if you want to get to ILM.

"Cinemagic" magazine - Back issues available thru Starlog Publishing,
I do have all of them, even the one's all the way back before 
Starlog took over (the Dohler Days) has some good articles on
cel and stop motion animation, armature fabrication, makeup, 
lighting, etc. If anyone has a specific topical concern, let
me know and I can copy articles for you out of these issues.
-- 
========>>> Big Al T ---- Sysop From Hell ---- aa664 <<<=========
******************The three great lies:**************************
1) I'll still respect   2)The check is in   3)I'm from the IRS &
you in the morning.     the mail.           I'm here to help you.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.animation
From: entpph@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Subject: Re: In BMTAS
Reply-To: entpph@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1992 17:19:33 GMT

In article <empire.67.721789662@dorm.rutgers.edu>, empire@dorm.rutgers.edu (Michael Kraft) writes:
>I know Mark Hamill is the Joker, but what else did Mark Hamill do. His name 
>sounds very familiar but I can't place the face.
>
>
> /==========================================================================\
> | Michael Kraft                         Internet: empire@dorm.rutgers.edu  |
> |--------------------------------------------------------------------------|
> |                                                     New Jersey, USA      |
> \==========================================================================/

Mark Hamill's first starring role was in an obscure science fiction
remake of the Wizard of Oz called Star Wars.  It was directed by a former
classmate of mine at USC Cinema named George...damn, it's on the tip of
my tongue.  Anyway, George somebody.  

You probably never heard of Star Wars, it didn't do very well at the box
office, and it was a long time ago.

The sadly humorous, but subtly misinformed Erik Timmerman
Film/Video Department
RIT

Newsgroups: rec.arts.animation
From: scheetz@watson.bms.com (Christopher Scheetz)
Subject: Baby Plucky's Video Reviews
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  
Organization: Bristol Myers Squibb Pharmaceutical Research Institute
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 00:35:00 GMT


Welcome to At the Movies special video episode. I'm afraid Gene and Roger 
couldn't be with us. So, as a special treat we are honored to have filling in 
for them Baby Plucky. Here are the movies he will be reviewing today: 

Terminator 2
Batman Returns
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles
Tiny Toons: How I Spent My Vacation
(Possible Spoilers Ahead!!!)


































So, here we go. Baby Plucky, let's start with Terminator 2.

Terminator biggggg. OOOOOOOOH. Too Loud. T-1000 fall down the hole. Terminator 
fall down the hole. OOOOOOOOH. Too Hot.

OK, what about Batman Returns.

Penguin fall down the hole. Penguin come back. EEEEEEEEEW. Penguin fall down 
the hole again. Batman fall down the hole. OOOOOOOOOH. Penguin no come back up 
the hole. Too dark.

Ahem, right. What about Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

Turtles go down the hole. Foot soldiers go down the hole. Casey Jones go down 
the hole. OOOOOOOOH. Turtles come back. EEEEEEEEEEW.

Yes, of course. Finally, your impressions on Tiny Toons: How I Spent My 
Vacation?

OOOOOOOH. Too young. No see.

Well, that's all for At the Movies this time. Good night. 

You no say goodnight. I say goodnight!


Newsgroups: rec.arts.animation
From: boylan@pi.eai.iastate.edu (Terran Boylan)
Subject: Re: Cruella Deville
Organization: Engineering Animation, Inc.
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 18:59:35 GMT

In article <By4nL2.5w4@nic.umass.edu>, s7958246@titan.ucc.umass.edu (s7958246) writes:
> In article <92324.141303RHK106@psuvm.psu.edu> <RHK106@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
> 
>   Cruella DeVil, Cruella DeVil,
>   If she doesn't scare you, no evil thing will
>   To see her is to take a sudden chill
>   Cruella, Cruella DeVil
> 
>   The (something) in her look, the ice in her stare
>   Innocent children better beware
>   The world was such a wholesome place until
>   Cruella, Cruella DeVil
> 

Anybody besides me heard the Replacements' version of this song on the
incredible _Stay Awake_ album? 

-- 
Terran J. Boylan, Sr. Artist/Programmer | "It's better to have loved
Engineering Animation, Inc.,  Ames, IA  | and lost than just to have
(515) 296-9908 / (515) 296-7934 (> 5PM) | lost." -- Dorky Dog
Newsgroups: rec.arts.animation
From: urban@sideshow.jpl.nasa.gov (Michael P Urban)
Subject: Re: BTAS  11/16: Heart of Steel
Reply-To: urban@sideshow.jpl.nasa.gov (Michael P Urban)
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 23:44:24 GMT

In article <1992Nov18.215119.13850@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu> mae@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Mary Anne Espenshade) writes:
>want to mention that nobody has pointed out yet was the appearance of
>the one type of the robot skeleton, the one that first appeared as the
>trash can following Barbara.  It's a design out of a Fleisher Superman
>cartoon, more recently used repeatedly by Miyazaki in a Lupin episode

By the way, the bit of business with the ashcan rolling around and then
backing up to the wall to look inconspicuous seemed to me to have
been lifted from a neat little Australian film named `Malcolm', in
which some robbers `disguised' as bank ashtrays behave in much
the same way.

I concur that the robot design was inspired by the Superman
`Mechanical Men' cartoon.  I have sometimes thought that Fox should
run a Fleischer Superman cartoon as a short subject before a Batman
episode... 
	Mike Urban

	urban@cobra.jpl.nasa.gov
From: gopher@yar.cs.wisc.edu (Chris Bovitz)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.animation
Subject: Cartoon Marathons on Nov. 27
Date: 21 Nov 92 20:20:32 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Wisconsin, Madison -- Computer Sciences Dept.

According to this week's TV Guide, Ted Turner is going to 'toon us out
with three cartoon marathons:

   TNT : Johnny Quest - 14 hours (5 a.m. to 7 p.m. CST)
   TBS : Bugs Bunny - ?
   'Toon Network : Cartoons from A to Z - ?

I'm sure about the Johnny Quest marathon 'cause I have a friend who likes
Johnny Quest.  Anyone have any idea if the shows will be the new JQ or the
old ones?


Chris


-- 
Chris Bovitz              |    "I demand that you shoot me now!"
Department of Meteorology |    
Univ of Wisc - Madison    |       -- Daffy Duck
moonunit@meteor.wisc.edu  |    
Newsgroups: rec.arts.animation
From: ted4646@rigel.tamu.edu (cartoon boy)
Subject: Re: BTAS 11/16: Heart of Steel
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 00:16:00 GMT

In article <1992Nov18.003838.3832@tc.fluke.COM>, moriarty@tc.fluke.COM (The Napoleon of Crime) writes...
>In <Af28RqG00awAQ4o1MV@andrew.cmu.edu> kc2w+@andrew.cmu.edu (Kevin J. Chen) writes:
> 
>>Did anyone else think that the animation style in this episode was
>>"different"?  It wasn't the very polished animation we saw in P.O.V. or
>>Heart of Ice, but I thought it was good.  Certain scenes with Bats in
>>the low-lighting struck me as very impressive indeed.
> 
>Actually, I thought it fairly mediocre, but everyone's got an opinion.

There were several scenes in the first half that were very spotty, as if the 
original artwork wasn't taken care of correctly.  It made me dislike the overall
animation for that episode.

>The one that absolutely had me rolling was picking William Sanderson to play
>the voice of the AI developer -- a role very similar to the one he played in
>BLADERUNNER. 
> 
>(Now if only the female android's voice had been Daryll Hannah's...)
> 

More Blade Runner DYN's:  The Tyrell corporation in BR was originally called
the Rosen Associaton in PKD's book _Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep_.
The Cybertron's owner/president's name was, of course, Rosen.

Due to the poster forgetting to set his roommate's vcr, I didn't get to see
part two of "Heart of Steel".  Would some kind reader of this newsgroup send
me a synopsis of the episode?  Thanks much.


just a few random thoughts from thomas, aka ted4646@rigel.tamu.edu

"We're entrepreneurs in an expanding field."
				-the Corinthian


Newsgroups: rec.arts.animation
From: conty@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (E. Kontei)
Subject: Re: BTAS  11/16: Heart of Steel
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 18:16:12 GMT

In article <62164@mimsy.umd.edu>, kimy@cs.umd.edu (Yong-Mi Kim) writes:
> 
> I believe both Dong Yang and AKOM are Korean animation companies.

Correct.

> Sunrise is Japanese, and I have been told tends to produce soft-core
> porn animation

<BZZT!>  You're thinking of Soeshinsha, who (among many other things)
used to be the producers of the CREAM LEMON series of adult anime videos.

Sunrise is the animation company that created such fan-favorites as
DIRTY PAIR, CITY HUNTER, and the various GUNDAM series.  Their animation
quality is not the greatest, but they do have flashes of talent.

> (anime fans should recognize the name _Project A-Ko_,
> one of their better known products).

This is, again, a Soeshinsha production, but not an adult anime.
Just thought I'd clear that up.
-- 
			    E n r i q u e  C o n t y
			The Incredible Man-with-no-Life
			      jester@ihlpm.att.com
		    Disclaimer: You're not dealing with AT&T
Newsgroups: rec.arts.animation
From: lwv26@cas.org (Larry W. Virden)
Subject: Re: Cruella Deville
Followup-To: rec.arts.animation
Reply-To: lvirden@cas.org (Larry W. Virden)
Organization: Nedriv Software and Shoe Shiners, Uninc.
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 08:15:19 GMT

I am reading 'the real' 101 Dalmations to my son this fall.  In the original
novel, Cruella is much worse than in the movie!  She comes across as a
devil incarnate (in one scene, Lucky bites her on the ear and howls that
she tastes like pepper...)
-- 
Larry W. Virden                 UUCP: osu-cis!chemabs!lvirden
Same Mbox: BITNET: lvirden@cas  INET: lvirden@cas.org
Personal: 674 Falls Place,   Reynoldsburg, OH 43068-1614
Newsgroups: rec.arts.animation
Subject: Re: BTAS: Heart of Steel
From: gunthar@vax1.mankato.msus.edu
Date: 20 Nov 92 13:49:34 -0600
Distribution: na
Organization: Mankato State University

In article <1992Nov17.222123.1@cgsvax.claremont.edu>, walkerjo@cgsvax.claremont.edu writes:
> In article <1992Nov17.235049.3012@stsci.edu>, wmorgan@stsci.edu (Windsor A. Morgan) writes:
>>Is it possible the reason Wayne wears the same
>> brown suit is that it is actually the Batclothes inside out? :-)
> 
> However, the suits he wears can't be normal; if he had to remove his tie,
> unbutton his vest and shirt, etc., everytime he changed, he'd be dead dead
> dead the first time he tried it.  Far too time consuming.

I take Batman's quickchange ability about as seriously as his ability to pull
handy bits of equipment off his belt or his ability to disappear without a 
sound.  Any plot criticing I do takes these impossibilites for granted.

G.

Newsgroups: rec.arts.animation
From: moriarty@tc.fluke.COM (The Napoleon of Crime)
Subject: BTAS: Vertigo / Intro to Ra's 'N Talia
Organization: The Institute for Criminal Science, Gizmonics Control
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 02:07:06 GMT

A so-so episode.  That was Michael York as Vertigo?  Coulda fooled me.  Guess
I'm just used to his husky undertone style of talking.

I've never been too fond of either Ra's Al Ghul or Talia; both (particularly
Talia) have that simplistic tone that Denny O'Neil was using back in the 70s
(and now, for all I know) when he was bring Bats back to it's "primal" side.
(I notice, BTW, that O'Neil gets story credit in the credits.  Nice touch,
Warners.)  Still, picking David Warner as Ra's voice -- a stroke of genius.
That actually was the one major perk-up during the entire thing.  (I admit
that picturing Helen Slater, the ultimate energetic blond, as Talia, the
dangerous woman of mystery... well, stick to the voice.  Warner could play
Ra's in person with ease, though.)

PS  Gee, I was sure we were going to see some deaths during the opening 5
minutes.  "Amnesia gas", my foot. :-)

                           "There's no fucking
                            justice!"
                                                     "Not from this
                                                      government."

                                           -- MISSPENT YOUTHS
---
                                        Moriarty, aka Jeff Meyer
INTERNET:     moriarty@tc.fluke.COM
Manual UUCP:  {uunet, uw-beaver, sun, microsoft}!fluke!moriarty
CREDO:        You gotta be Cruel to be Kind...
                 **>> Keep circulating the tapes <<**
From: kimy@cs.umd.edu (Yong-Mi Kim)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.animation
Subject: Re: BTAS  11/16: Heart of Steel
Date: 18 Nov 92 15:23:27 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, Dept. of Computer Science, Coll. Pk., MD 20742

In article <1992Nov18.000205.27354@netcom.com> opcarr@netcom.com (Onny Carr) writes:
>:Did anyone else think that the animation style in this episode was
>:"different"?  It wasn't the very polished animation we saw in P.O.V. or
>:Heart of Ice, but I thought it was good.  Certain scenes with Bats in
>:the low-lighting struck me as very impressive indeed.
>
>They were the same guys who did the "Pretty Poison" episode.  Sunrise.
>While not as good as Spectrum or TMS, some scenes in the episode
>led me to believe that these guys are better than Dong Yang, and
>light years ahead of AKOM.


I believe both Dong Yang and AKOM are Korean animation companies.
Sunrise is Japanese, and I have been told tends to produce soft-core
porn animation (anime fans should recognize the name _Project A-Ko_,
one of their better known products).

I liked the way the robots were made to move in an insect-like manner
when chasing Batman.  I always thought it was pretty silly that most
robots in animation were made to move exactly like human beings.

I thought the women looked a bit more exaggerated :) than usual in "Heart
of Steel", especially Barbara Gordon.  Did Sunrise have anything to
do with that?


yong-mi
all the women were replicants!
Newsgroups: rec.arts.animation
From: conty@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (E. Kontei)
Subject: Re: BTAS  11/16: Heart of Steel
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 03:14:40 GMT

In article <62184@mimsy.umd.edu>, kimy@goober.cs.umd.edu writes:
> 
> I was supplied the information on Sunrise by two anime fans, one of them
> conversant in Japanese and with a good knowledge of Kanji.
> I am curious if Soeshinsha and Sunrise are two different companies,
> or if it's one company with a Japanese name and an American name

I'm quite certain they're different companies.  And even if I were mistaken,
I'm sure Ryan Gavigan would correct me.  Ne, Gaver-sensei?  :-)

-- 
			    E n r i q u e  C o n t y
			The Incredible Man-with-no-Life
			      jester@ihlpm.att.com
		    Disclaimer: You're not dealing with AT&T