Newsgroups: alt.activism.d
Subject: Abortion: Invalid arguments dilute pro-life position
From: ivler@mdcbbs.com (J.M. Ivler    ivler@mdcbbs.com)
Date: 30 Sep 92 11:04:28 GMT
Followup-To: talk.abortion
Organization: M&E (Division of EDS), Cypress CA
Nntp-Posting-User: eschner

In  <1992Sep29.140723.9318@iscnvx.lmsc.lockheed.com>  
burkhardt@FORCE.SSD.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM () writes:
#>I would just like to make a small point...  (I'm not flaming you :)
#>
#>I object to the term "Pro-Abortion" (thank you for including "Pro-Choice")
#>in a big way.  I don't think *anyone* is "Pro-Abortion."  That
#>would be like people saying "Whaaaat?  You're PREGNANT??  Go get an
#>abortion NOW!"  Pro-Choicers do *not* think that fetuses *should* be
#>aborted.  They think that they do not have the right to force values and
#>judgements about whether or not they are carrying a baby or merely fetal
#>tissue on to people who may have a difference of opinion.
#>
#>In a perfect world, there would be no need for this debate, because there
#>would be no unwanted pregnancies.  (Wiping out unwanted pregnancies should,
#>IMHO, be where most of the effort of both sides should lie ... but I stray
#>from the topic.)
#>
#>Please do not flame me.  I'm not trying to anger anyone.
>
>This is a ridiculous statement/paragraph to write.  Of course at least 98%
>of all people who get abortions or support abortion are "Pro-Abortion".  
>If they were not, then alternatives would be used.  But for various reasons,
>such as laziness, selfishness... those alternatives are not used.  I'm sick
>and tired of hearing about "they do not have the right to force values".  In
>the mere act of abortion/murder the woman is forcing values onto the would-be
>baby.  As was said in another discussion, when having sex those two people
>make the decision to live with the possibilities including having a baby.  To
>make a distinction between "carrying a baby or merely fetal tissue" is an
>intellectual(not very good at that) distinction that ignores the fact that 
>it is a life with intellegence and is a human being.

1) It is not a rediculous statement
2) "98% of all people who get abortions or support abortion are "Pro-Abortion"."
   is a false statement. Please validate that with a single shred of evidence.
3) "But for various reasons, such as laziness, selfishness... those 
   alternatives are not used." This is a known false statement. I *know* people 
   that have chosen to have abortions. They are not any of the above. You have 
   made assumptions without any basis in fact!
4) "I'm sick and tired of hearing about "they do not have the right to force 
   values"." But that what it ammounts to. If my wife and I have to make the 
   decision to do this, we want to have that option. If you do not choose to do 
   it, then that is your option. You want to regulate your moral code and your 
   options on me, that is wrong! I am sure you wouldn't want my Muslem friend 
   to start regulating his moral value system on you (see Iran for what that 
   is like) or maybe you would like to have to have no choice but to purchase
   Kosher products... I mean it is for your health... GET OUT OF MY LIFE! DO 
   NOT REGULATE MORAL ISSUES!
5) "In the mere act of abortion/murder the woman is forcing values onto the 
   would-be baby." Well, by forcing the laws of kashras on you I would be 
   stopping you from killing yourself. Suicide is illegal, and then we could 
   outlaw things like cigarettes, alcohol, and any possible carnogyn (no matter 
   how little it leads to cancer) and then cars and oil based processing that 
   fouls the air and causes you to die earlier than you would naturally... Just 
   how far are you planning on infringing on an individuals right before you 
   stop? Do you plan on invading their bedrooms and making sure that they 
   perform copulation in the proscibed methods, I mean it is illegal in over 
   10 states for two mature adults (of different sexs) to perform anal 
   intercourse, and it is illegal in at least five states to perform oral sex. 
   IN THE PRIVACY OF THEIR OWN BEDROOMS!

Legislation of morality doesn't work. It is reminecent of bookburning and the 
mentality that says that it is important that children report on their parents. 
[The second case is currently supported by many as the proper way to catch 
people for use and sale of narcotics... It is also what the Soviets used to 
train children to do (I would mention Nazi Germany, but we don't want to open 
up that can of worms :-) ) ]

You have stated that the woman who chooses to abort in the first trimester is a 
murderer. If the womans body were to throw off the fetus, it would be unable to 
live outside the womb and would be considered a miscarrage. There is no way 
that this can be considered murder as the fetus can not survive without the 
host womb.

You have stated that the woman who chooses to abort in the second trimester is 
a murderer. If the womans body were to throw off the fetus, it would be unable 
to live outside the womb without intense and extraordinary medical care. In 
many cases it would be considered a miscarrage. In those where hercilean 
efforts are perfomed by the medical community, some survive and go on to lead 
normal lives. Some other survive, but are permanantlt damaged by the 
experience. There is no way that this can be considered murder as the fetus 
can not survive without the host womb without efforts that are extreemly 
expensive and don't have even a 50% success rate. In these cases a woman should 
consider her choices deeply, but should still be permitted a choice.

Finally, we have third trimester. In this last period the possibility of the 
fetus to survive increase dramatically. In cases like these _most_ clinics and 
doctors will only perform abortions if the life of the mother is at stake. To 
say that someone would wait this long into a pregnancy prior to electing to 
have an abortion for no reason, well that does happen, but according to 
published statistics, it doesn't happen very often (less than 1 in 15,000 
voluntery abortions that are not based on the health and welfare of the mother 
are performed in the third trimester - US Dept. of Health and Human 
Services - April 1991.).

So, if you want to get that last small percentage that are getting voluntery 
third trimester abortions, maybe you have a point somewhere in your argument. 
But in the first and second trimester, it really is a mater of choice, as the 
fetus has not developed to the point where it can survive without the benefit 
of a host.

I suggest that you take a bit of time to research your position prior to taking 
an indefensable stand. In addition, I suggest that you cut out the hyperbowl 
and work on developing some coherent arguments based on some level of factual 
information instead of flamage and unsupported and unsubstanciated claims.

jmi
ivler@mdcbbs.com
Democrat for US Congress - '94
Newsgroups: alt.activism.d