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Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1993 13:40:00 PST
From:         Jim McIntosh <Jim@AMERICAN.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Lies about the Consecration

On Fri, 8 Jan 1993 11:08:14 -0500 Bill said:
>      I am fairly new to this discussion list, and I am not a catholic,
>I am in the RCIA, and plan to be baptised and receive my first communion
>come easter time. I must admit I am a bit confused about all of this
>consecration talk and the end times. I have been attending mass for a
>few years and I am well read in catholic doctrine and teachings. Plus
>with the RCIA process I have learned more about the teachings of the
>church. We meet once a week at the Newman center and talk about alot
>of various things. Father Greg and Deacon Jackson provide the instruction
>and they have never mentioned anything about the end times coming now.
>Deacon has visited both Fatima and Madegorea (sorry mispell) and has
>told us of his experiences. I realize and fully understand the high role
>that Mary has in the church. But, alot of what has been said is not
>based on the Holy scriptures, Jesus himself said that we will not know
>when the end times are going to be. Would someone emlighten me on all
>of this I be confused.

Welcome to the Catholic List, Bill. As you probably know, the Catholic
Church is truely a mansion with many rooms. After spending some time with us
you will find that, although most of us have a lot of respect for the other
people on the list and we do love each other as brothers and sisters in
Christ, we are rooted in different parts of the Church.

Some of us are out in the far left. We could easily accept women priests,
the blessing of homosexual unions, and our response to the growing lack of
priests would be to start a discussion about the priesthood of all
believers and whether a community can "do" mass in the absence of a priest.
We tend to view the Gospels as a call to transform society into the Kingdom
of God. Others are in the far right and miss the Latin mass and the loss of
the old style of Church. In general, those in this camp would view the
Gospels as requiring a personal response. These two groups I've described are
really two ends of a scale, and the vast majority of the Church resides
somewhere in the middle.

These two extremes are necessary and healthy in the life of the Church. Those
on the more liberal side produce a call for change. Without it the Church
would become stagnate and lose its message with the passing of time.  Those
on the more conservative side call for reflection on those changes, and allow
only those which pass muster. Without them the changes would soon become an
end in itself, and the Church would soon find itself adrift without direction.

In my opinion, this mailing list is a real gift because it allows both
groups, as well as those in the middle, to talk together. It brings together
people who would normally never have the opportunity to meet, and allows them
to discuss issues in an open and free way.  We have managed generally to
avoid flame wars, and to treat each other gently and with trust and respect.

If you spend time with us you will notice two recurring topics: the
ordination of women (and the role in the church of women in general) and
homosexuality (which, it seems, we are about to start again). It is my
contention that the reason these issues come up so frequently is because
these are two areas where society has moved past the Church, and the Church
as not been able to redefine its message in these areas so they can be
understood and accepted by the people of today.  Join these discussions if
you wish, but be assured that if you miss out this time they will be back
real soon.  :-)

As to your specific question, the belief that Mary is appearing to children
in the twentieth century with yet another message about an impending end-time
is not dogma, and you are under no obligation to believe that anything
serious is happening. (If you've noticed my recent posts on the subject,
you'll see that I tend to doubt the authenticity of the visions, and regret
the way they portray God and the message of the Gospels.) On the other hand,
some people who I know and respect very highly, such as Dick McSorley (who
has been working on peace issues for years, and, if you remember, was the
Jesuit priest who accompanied Bill Clinton on his trip towards the USSR which
came up during the campaign), have journeyed to Yugoslavia (when it was
Yugoslavia) and they have returned even more convinced in what they have
seen. I don't think it would be possible to describe Dick McSorley has a
conservative, so clearly people from different areas of the church have been
touched by experience.  Listen and read about it (the names of a number of
books have been posted here recently) and then judge for yourself.

Again, welcome!

Jim McIntosh, SFO (jim@american.edu)
The American University
Washington, DC USA 20016-8019
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic