From: bxp1628@hertz.njit.edu (Brian Perler)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics
Subject: Re: Marvel's untouchable corpses (was re: STARLIN SELLOUT?)
Date: 3 Sep 92 14:20:30 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.


[Lots of stuff deleted]

In article <BtzKKF.L4n@news.cso.uiuc.edu> rnmg1200@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (A Lady and her Walrus) writes:
>In article <1992Sep3.031400.11120@njitgw.njit.edu> bxp1628@hertz.njit.edu (Brian Perler) writes:
>>Hmmm.... I thought the original example was Bucky, who was definitely a
>>major character (albeit in the pre-Marvel days, and later in the Invaders)
>
>Here is where the problem lies.  I was referring to Uncle Ben, who is 
>arguably as major a character as Bucky (he's had as many appearances).  I 
>also think that if Bucky is a major character, then surely Norman Osborne is.
>He had as much effect on Spidey as Bucky did on Cap.  Same for Gwen and
>Captain Stacy.  And the Ancient One is not exactly minor from Dr. Strange's
>point of view, ranking at least up there with Bucky.

This might have been my mistake.  I remember someone mentioning Bucky
in this thread, and probably thought that's how it originated.  I might
have been mistaken.

And, Bucky has had many more appearances that Uncle Ben.  Most of them
were in the pre-Marvel days, though, in the original Captain America 
comics of the '40's.  The rest of his appearances were essentially
flashbacks (when you get down to it, that's what the entire Invaders
series was).

Norman Osborne was probably a mistake on my part, as half the time I think
of him as Norman, and the other half as the Green Goblin.  The Green Goblin
was a major character, but I don't think Norman was.  Since Norman was the
Green Goblin, I guess he should be counted as a major character.

Gwen and Captain Stacy, as well as the Ancient One, made all their
appearances before I really got into comics, and were mostly supporting
cast members.  Since I never saw many issues with them, I find it
difficult to consider them major.  That's my problem.  Technically, I
suppose they are major characters, although one might question, say,
Gwen's importance now that Peter's married to Mary Jane (again, this
could be my ignorance showing).

>>There tends to be a lesser tendency to bring back the more minor characters,
>>so keeping them dead isn't as big as keeping a major character (such as
>>Bucky or Mar-Vell) dead.  Of course, with the Parkers fiasco, I suppose
>>no minor characters are safe (one appearance, in a flashback, probably
>>puts them firmly in the "minor" category.)
>
>So what constitutes a "minor" character?  Number of appearances, importance
>to the overall story, what?  Seems that at least one of the people I listed
>should fall under the category of major characters (other than Mar-Vell, 
>whose rebirth is the source of much speculation and rumor).  I'm just curious
>to figure out a good definition of "minor".  If it's not having much impact
>on the story, then that rules out both Gwen and Captain Stacy, as well as
>the Ancient One and Norman Osborne.  All of them are important in one way or
>another to the story of the character with which they are associated.  I
>think a much better example of a "minor" character would be, say, Thunderbolt
>(from old issues of Power Man/Iron Fist, I think), whom I had never heard of
>before seeing him in a copy of the OHOTMU.  He appeared only a few times, 
>then bit the bullet.  (A new version appeared in a recent Hulk annual, I 
>believe, but that's another matter.)

There is no good definition of a "minor character."  The way I explained
it above is very biased and completely arbitrary.  Obviously, other
people will classify these people differently than I did.  Someone who
read those issues of Spider-Man with Gwen, et. al., will obviously place
more importance on those characters that I did, since I've only read a 
few of those stories, and those were mostly in reprints.  Since Marvel
doesn't make much reference to their previous importance, it's difficult
for someone (like me) who wasn't around during the time to think of them
as important characters.  Again, other people will view these characters
differently.  Who's right?  Probably no one.

>>Would saying that they're ATTEMPTING to make Harry similar to Norman
>>be more appropriate?  True, Harry isn't truly replacing Norman, but they
>>are trying to make him into essentially the same thing (although not an
>>exact copy).
>
>Right on the money.  The main difference between Harry and Norman, as far as
>I'm concerned, is:  I'm *spooked* by Harry.  Norman didn't affect me, but
>Harry actually gives me the willies.

Again, I missed those classic Norman stories.  But Harry is definitely
a freaky character ("I know who you are, Spider-Man, and I'm going to
tell the world.  But... not.... just.... yet."  That element of fear
should always be his greatest weapon)

>>As someone else said, he appears to be the real Swordsman's counterpart from
>>another dimension.  It's in the recent Avengers issue, if you think you
>>have the tolerance to sit through it.
>
>No, not this millenia, thanks.  I merely thank whatever powers there be that it
>isn't the original.
>
>Speaking of the Swordsman, did anyone happen to notice the Mantis/Moondragon
>Liefeld clone story in the recent Avengers (or was it FF?) annual?  Being
>fond as I am of Kang (the only villain besides Doom who can pull off the
>"villain-dies-only-to-return-to-menace-our-heroes-later" trick believably,
>since there are or were zillions of him running around the multiverse), I
>bought the annual (yeah, I'm weak, so sue me) and discovered this piece of
>refuse in it.  Little more than an overglorified female wrestling match.
>What's next, Marvel presents the GLOW girls?  But what I was wondering is:
>where does this storyline come from?  Y'know, the bit about Mantis' son/child
>being kidnapped?  I seem to recall her appearing in Silver Surfer for a while,
>so it might be a follow-up (kinda oblique) from there.  Can anyone confirm
>this?

Damned if I know.  I still can't believe I shelled out good money for
all the parts of the Citizen Kang storyline after reading the first one.
My god, that was bad.  (Although I did like the way they followed up on
the dangling plotlines from the Captian America and Thor annuals  :)  )