From: kdenning@portal.hq.videocart.com (Karl Denninger)
Subject: Re: Hasan B Mutlu
Summary: Hmmmm... .we have some differences Spiros
Organization: VideOcart Inc.
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 23:13:36 GMT

In article <1992Aug28.211823.24785@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com> c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos) writes:
>In article <1992Aug28.184706.1950@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>>Anyone thinking of revoking his posting privs better think long and
>>hard about the standard used to determine whether net.access should
>>be denied, and where that comes from.
>
>Glad you asked. 
>
>The Litmus Test would be whether the net is used to exchange information,
>opinions, ideas, methods, jokes, etc (all acceptable methods) or whether
>it is used as a media to (to use one of my favorite phrases here)
>'further one's cause'. 

I guess you're intending to censor all the people in talk.abortion then yes?
I doubt that anyone could make an argument that they are (for the most part
at least) doing anything other than attempting to further their cause (on
BOTH sides).

>the foundation of the net. Nobody has complained about the posting of
>volumes and volumes of data in, say, alt.fractals, comp.binaries.*, or
>rec.jokes. 

Which is the point.  Mutlu's VOLUME alone is insignificant in the grand
scheme of things.

>as well as POSTING skills. And, above all, it assumes a two way street
>in communications. How can anyone two-way-communicate with someone who
>ridicules anyone disagreeing with him, refuses personal mail, and on top
>of all that, posts from non-existing hosts thru UC Berkeley's posting
>service? 

You have one point here which is worthy of recognition IMHO.  The use of
anonymous posting service(s) to hide behind (which is EXACTLY what he is
doing right now -- michigan.com as a domain park is OFF THE AIR at this time
as JP and company folded) is, IMHO, reprehensible.

>The net did not tolerate headhunters for a good reason; the net did
>not tolerate the b-cpu revisionists for equally good reason. 

I find the b-cpu people to be obnoxious, but not worthy of censorship.  

I would >welcome< the presence of headhunters personally; anything which
enhances people's standard of living (and these folks generally do) is ok
with me.....  as I always say, "I listen to all offers at the time they're
received".

>Can you
>see an analogy there? Fair and simple, it is only a fact that Mr.
>Mutlu is using the net and his (let's say) $20/month in dues to his
>news feed to reach an audience of over 2,000,000 people CHEAP.

He's not being very effective given that probably 95% of those who read the
groups have him in KILL files, and the rest love the flamefests. ;-)

>>Personally, if he is posting news and not screwing up the flow of it,
>>he's fine by me. IF I get wind of the fact that he is being denied
>>news access simply because he's posted lots of articles...I will grant
>>him access. 
>
>If that is the case, I am sure all the pro-[life|choice], [pro|anti]-gun,
>[pro|anti]-everything people would all line up to pay their $20/month
>to newsfeeds and flood the net, all 'furthering their causes'. I bet
>if the political parties did the same it would all be fine with you too.

THEY ALREADY DO.  Again, see the arguments, er, discussions in the
talk.abortion and talk.politics.guns groups...

>Please don't misunderstand me. Free Speech is fine and we're all for
>it.  But 600 KB of messages filled with personal insults a week, along
>with posts to irrelevant groups, and coupled with little
>accountability and lack of two way communications are the things we
>(I) object to. 

The lack of accountability is really the only point I have issue with in the
abstract.  It is simply wrong to run around and libel people, and to hide
behind a un-replyable address is much worse.  Insults are one thing -- if 
you don't like those, get the heck off the net; its not for you.  But "so 
and so the criminal" and "so and so the terrorist" are a different matter 
entirely.  This has, IMHO, crossed the line from insult to actionable 
statement.

--
Karl Denninger 		Inet:  kdenning@hq.videocart.com
VideOcart Inc.		Voice: (312) 987-5022