From: gary_preckshot@lccmail.ocf.llnl.gov (gary preckshot)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.crafts.metalworking
Date: 15 Oct 92 16:06:46 GMT
Article-I.D.: lll-wink.139008
Organization: LLNL

In article <1992Oct15.132818.9810@nastar.uucp>, phardie@nastar.uucp (Pete Hardie) writes:
> 
> In article <1992Oct14.154041.262@news.uwyo.edu> jimkirk@news.uwyo.edu writes:
> >I would like to propose a change of name for the proposed newsgroup
> >rec.crafts.metalworking, to simply rec.metalworking.  Apparently,
> 
> I disagree.  Reasons below.

Well,  I disagree with Pete Hardie, noting the inconsistancies in his
discourse below.

[stuff deleted]

> There are always exceptions to the rules, usually groups created before the
> rules.  Often those groups are the reason for the rules (sci.aquaria, for
> example)

Usually the exceptions exist because after trying to force rules on a
situation where it's inappropriate, they don't fit, and you have an
exception, as should exist here.

> 
> >2.  Symmetry with the strongly-related group rec.woodworking.  Unless of
> >    course they decide to change to rec.crafts.woodworking.  Perhaps
> >    they get to be grandfathered, being an old group?
> 
> If there is a rec.crafts,metalworking, there might be enough reason to change
> the group.

Nonsense.  The symmetry argument is serious.  If there's a rec.woodworking,
then people expect to find, by symmetry, rec.metalworking, not
rec.*crafts*.metalworking.

[stuff deleted]

> 'Nuff said.  trial.* was an experiment that has ended, and the organization,
> or lack thereof, under trial.* is not a binding force.
> 

If you're so easy about wasting the trial approach, why are you inconsistent
and so determined to force a name some of us find repugnant?



> I feel that this is a myopic attitude.  A craft is anything that produces
> something intended for use.  It can be quite complex, like forging a suit
> of armor, but the product is intended for *use*.  'Craftsman' is hardly an
> insulting term.
>

This is nonsense.  "Craft" hasn't had the more respectful meaning you
talk of in this country for 50 years!  It means crocheting or beading.
 
[stuff deleted]
> 
> I don't exactly understand the allusion to the USA and metric....
> 
I didn't understand that one either.

> The reasons for a well-defined structure on the Usenet groups are A) to allow
> folks to find the group easily, without having to wade through a lot of 
> description (rec.metalworking does this as well as r.c.m); and to cluster the
> similar groups so that people interested in similar things can find them close
> by (r.c.m works better, assuming we get woodworking into it, and any others
> that apply).  Why do we have rec.arts.tv.*?  To group all the TV-related groups
> into one clump, making it easier to find them.
> 
Actually, your theory, and that's what it is, has already been disproven
by several posters on rec.woodworking who posted metalworking questions
there because they couldn't find, by their own statement, rec.metalworking.

[stuff deleted]
> I dislike this, just because the guidelines have been hammered into their
> present shape after a LOT of work, getting them to a shape that is acceptable
> to many people.
> 

Well, evidently not to the rec.woodworking crowd, whose group name appears
to be unchanged.  Maybe the "many people" you speak of are idle onlookers
whose ox won't be gored.  I have a suggestion: name the new group
rec.metalworking.  Then, if you can get the rec.woodworking crowd to go
along with it, rename both groups at the same time to rec.crafts.xxxxworking.
If you can't, then your argument is shot down.  If you can, then
consistency and symmetry are maintained throughout the whole process.  And
I always mistrust people who say "we have so MUCH work invested in this
turkey, that we just HAVE to use it."  If a "LOT of work" is so important,
why was the "trial" method of trying out a new group dropped?

Anyway, as another poster pointed out, the important thing is that this new
group get established.  Arguments about names aside, it's high time usenet
has a group devoted to metalworking.

G.