HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mkovacs@Condor.mcs.kent.edu (Michael Kovacs)
Subject: Re: The advent of "technological secrecy"
Organization: Kent State University
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 19:52:35 GMT

In article <8822.9209112300@clus1.ulcc.ac.uk> Christopher Currie <c.currie@CLUS1.ULCC.AC.UK> writes:
>>      (the Luftwaffe failed to
>>     develop a strategic bombing strategy).
>
>What!!!!  That's news  to us Londoners.
>
>Christopher

The Nazis never developed a long-range heavy bomber or the long-range fighters
neccessary to protect such bombers. They used medium bombers protected (such
as was provided) by short-range fighters to bomb England. And their tactics
were lousy, too. From most accounts, they probably would have succeeded in
destroying the RAF if they had stuck to bombing the RAF fields and the radar
stations and left the cities alone. By giving the RAF the opportunity to 
"catch their breath", the Luftwaffe sealed their own fate.

-- 
                            -(o) (o)-
   Michael J Kovacs             U
 mkovacs@mcs.kent.edu         \___/
                               ***
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Organization: Syracuse University
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Date:         Wed, 9 Sep 1992 08:46:13 LCL
From:         maurice <MJFORRES@SUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Oldest City in North America?
              9 Sep 1992 10:50:05 BST from <c.currie@CLUS1.ULCC.AC.UK>

On Wed, 9 Sep 1992 10:50:05 BST Christopher Currie said:
>>
>> Somebody else said:
>> As a side note, Cahokia
>> (Illinois), had - in the 13th century - a population greater than
>> Paris.
>>
>I find this hard to believe. Estimates of the pop. of Paris in 1300 range
>up to 250,000. How large an area did Cahokia cover and how is the population
>estimated?

The estimates I've seen place Cahokia's population at about 50,000 and
its area at more than 5 square miles.  (I think I remember that from
one of Brian Fagan's books.)

maurice

                                                 Maurice Forrester
                                                 mjforres@suvm.syr.edu
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Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 09:47:14 CDT
From:         "Mark Stauter,Assoc Director" <MSTAUTER@UMRVMB.BITNET>
Subject:      A Young Philadelphian(?)

Any Philadelphians on the list?
I have a manuscript journal of a young American on the "Grand Tour" of
 Great Britain, the Continent, and the Holy Land in 1856-1857.  His
 name PROBABLY was A. McI. Robertson.  He MIGHT have been the son of
 Archibald Robertson, whom the 1856 City Directory of Philadelphia (Pa.)
 described as treasurer of the "N.O. Canal & Navigation Company" at 101
 Walnut Street.
Robertson's traveling companions were Augustus Graham Coleman, Samuel
 Richards Colwell, I. Hamilton Slack, and a man recorded only as "Doctor."
It's really a nice journal, and I'd like to know more about Robertson.
 Does his name ring a bell with anyone?
Mark Stauter, Western Historical Manuscript Collection, University of
 Missouri-Rolla
MSTAUTER@UMRVMB or MSTAUTER@UMRVMB.UMR.EDU
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Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 20:10:12 CDT
From:         LHNELSON --UKANVM <LHNELSON@UKANVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Help with error msg.

Hello, Denis;

The listserv at the HISTORY peer DGOGWDG1 has had some trouble sending a
posting to its notebook to be archived as September, 1992. It thinks that that
problem may have occurred while it was transferring a note and that there may
be a part of that note in the archive file. If there is, it might not have an
end-of-message indicator and would get tangled up with any further postings
that it tried to archive. It wants Thomas to come and make it all better.
Meanwhile, Thomas told it to keep a copy of all of the HISTORY postings
passing through it, and it can't do that. So it is storing all of the HISTORY
mail in a file called HSTEENW1 because it doesn't want to disobey Thomas and
make him angry.

It knows it is doing a no-no thing, however, because, as a LISTSERVER, it
ought to be serving the list. So it is telling everyone who sends a HISTORY
message to it why it can't do like a good LISTSERV and that it is taking very
good care of your message. It hopes that you will tell Thomas that it really
was a good LISTSERV and did its very best. It also wants you to call Thomas
and tell him that it is all confused and that he should come and tell it what
to do. Which I have just done.

And some people say that they're just machines and don't have any feelings!

Lynn

Lynn_Nelson
Department of History
University of Kansas
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Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1992 10:04:36 EDT
From:         "George E. Munro" <gmunro@CABELL.VCU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: How Much Is That in Real Money?
Comments: To: HISTORY%RUTVM1.BITNET@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU
              Sep 14, 92 8:28 pm

Phil,
So, you are joining the general debate.  That is one way to raise the
general level of discourse.  I can use the citation myself.  Thanks.
GEM.
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Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 16:08:19 CDT
From:         "Renato Barahona" <U17801@UICVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: U.S Military Intervention

On Fri, 4 Sep 1992 09:52:00 EDT <DGPAZ@CLEMSON> said:
>On Thu, 3 Sep 1992 23:02:00 EST YONI@BROWNCOG.BITNET said:
>> Currently I am begining my research on the topic                      se of
>> of whether U.S Military
>> Intervention in the internal affairs of other countries is justified.
>> I am interested in discussing the "values" and "justification" of sending
>> U.S Military to other countries.                                      a
>> SO in this letter I have basically touched on the points
>> of values, causes, justifications, legitimacies, etc.
>> I am interested in hearing the list's response.
>
>I at once reached for my Thucydides, and
>turned to the Melian Debates:
>
>"For ourselves" {said the Athenians}, "we shall not trouble you
>with specious pretences . . . and make a long speech which would
>not be believed; and in return we hope that you . . . will aim
>at what is feasible, holding in view the real sentiments of us both:
>since you know as well as we do that right, as the world goes,
>is only in question between equals in power, while the strong
>do what they can and the weak suffer what they must."
>
>THE STRONG DO WHAT THEY CAN AND THE WEAK SUFFER WHAT THEY MUST
>
>That pretty much sums up intervention in the affairs of
>other states.
>
>Denis Paz
>dgpaz@clemson.bitnet

Denis,

      That Thucydides was one smart cookie!

Renato
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Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 10:16:00 EST
From:         ekfriedm@THAMA1.APGEA.ARMY.MIL
Subject:      Corn Laws, UK vs. Japan
Comments: To: c.currie@clus1.ulcc.ac.uk, HISTORY@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu

     Re the perceived connection between 19th c. British and modern
     Japanese protectionist grain policies.  I thought that the
     Japanese policy was a result of the MacArthur-imposed postwar
     constitution, which gave disproportionate strength to rural
     constituencies, who use it to keep grain prices artificially high
     for their own profit.

     Couldn't a similar argument be made for the British corn laws,
     which seemed to disappear as the farming interests lost their
     parliamentary dominance?

     Is it possible that a farmer-dominated government might disguise
     a giveaway to farmers as a strategic necessity for national
     defense?  Pre-MacArthur Japan didn't seem to have any problem
     driving down domestic rice prices by huge imports from the
     mainland.

     -Eliot
     ekfriedm@thama1.apgea.army.mil
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Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 12:33:00 EDT
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Oldest City in North America?

On Tue, 8 Sep 1992 16:57:02 BST Christopher Currie
<c.currie@CLUS1.ULCC.AC.UK> said:

> Have not some of the Pueblo pueblos been inhabited since the Middle Ages?
> (Though I don't think they can count as cities).
>
> Christopher

A good point, Christopher. A former head of department of mine, now
director of the Center for Great Plains Studies at Univ. of
Nebraska, loved to point out that the oldest continuously
inhabited town in the U.S.A. is a pueblo (the name of which
escapes me).
But what counts as a city? Having a bishop? Let's stick to
"urban area" and not get into questions of how big is big.

Denis Paz
dgpaz@clemson.bitnet
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Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 09:46:30 PDT
From:         WORKING WITHOUT A NET <KRAMSEY@INTEL9.INTEL.COM>
Subject:      Re: Oldest City in North America?
Comments: To: HISTORY@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu

I think the oldest continually-inhabited pueblo in New Mexico is Acoma,
located west of Albuquerque on top of a 300' mesa.  I believe they advertise
the city has been there over 800 years, and the Native Americans still live
there (although mostly for tourists).  These people are the decendants of the
Anastazi people, of prehistoric times.....the exact connection between the
Anastazi and Native American Pueblo indians remains one of the great mysteries
of New Mexico and Arizona.  The Anastazi's decendents still live in many of
the pueblos visited by Coronado in his search for treasure.

New Mexico has a very interesting history.

Kyle Ramsey
Albuquerque, NM
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From: bayla@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Bayla Singer)
Subject: Re: Boosting the ratings
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, Illinois, USA
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 23:32:20 GMT

Please note: I do not now, nor did I ever, regard Daniel Foss as any sort
of equivalent to the Hillside Strangler.  All correspondence with Mr Foss
has been of the utmost civility on both sides, and I am at a complete 
loss trying to understand his use of my name in this manner.  While Mr Foss
-did- send me an apology, he must have sent his Goddess-piece to someone
else, for I never received it.  I did wonder what the apology was for: now
I know.

Words-l is not in any sense "my own list," any more than is History, or
Pacs-l fo that matter.  

And about the *last* word anyone who knows me would use to describe me, at
any time, is "weird".

As so many have before me, I hereby swear off trying to communicate with Mr
Foss.   

--Bayla Singer
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Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1992 12:47:56 CDT
From:         Don Mabry <djm1@RA.MSSTATE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: How Low is Higher Education in Clinton's state?
Comments: To: HISTORY@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu

	Some universities are Doctoral I, some are Doctoral II, and so
forth. Doctoral I institutions (such as Michigan and Mississippi State
University) are major research universities. There are approximately
55 such universities in the United States.


	Mississippi State University is also a Research I university.
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Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 12:32:00 EDT
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject: re: Clinton Administration?

On Thu, 10 Sep 1992 11:14:03 BST Christopher Currie
<c.currie@CLUS1.ULCC.AC.UK> said:

> The one
> poll where Bush has come out top lately is the one where people were
> asked which candidate was more trustworthy.

Headline in today's Greenville (S.C.) News: "Bush vows not to
raise taxes"

But this might kill off Bush's chances come November:-

Another headline in today's Greenville News: "Bush Admits
Economy Lousy"

Denis Paz
dgpaz@clemson.bitnet
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Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 11:24:34 EST
From:         "Sidney W. Kitchel" <kitchel@OCTOPUS.DPSI.COM>
Subject:      Re: Oldest City in North America?
Comments: To: HISTORY%RUTVM1.BITNET@pucc.princeton.edu
              11, 92 10:02 am

DGPAZ%CLEMSON.BITNET@pucc.princeton.edu writes:
|->
|-> On Fri, 11 Sep 1992 08:30:11 EST "Sidney W. Kitchel"
|-> <kitchel@OCTOPUS.DPSI.COM> said:
|->
|-> > 	It is usually written that Oraibi was established
|-> > approximately 1000 years ago. This makes the present Old Oraibi a good
|-> > candidate for longest inhabited town in North America. It is, however,
|-> > not a city and certainly was not established by the stinkin'
|-> > Europeans.
|-> > 	Acoma, the Sky City, is also old and in the Oraibi class for
|-> > longevity. But it too is not a city. Possibly the title should go to
|-> > Mexico.
|->
|-> All right, clearly we must define our terms.
|-> (1) There is pretty much agreement, I think, that by "longest
|-> continuously inhabited city in North America" we mean inhabited
|-> by people, not limited to Europeans.
|-> (2) However, what do we mean by "city." I have been assuming that
|-> "city" is short-hand for "urban area as opposed to rural area,"
|-> rather than "big urban area as opposed to little urban area."
|-> Mr. Kitchel, however, seems to be using "city" to mean the latter.
|-> I do not like that usage, because it gets into the question of
|-> how big is big.

	Well, Mr. Paz, it's pretty damn big. I really wasn't worried
about quibbling here. Defining terms is OK by me. However, my real
concern is with the original questioner's intentions. If I understand
your distinctions above, both Oraibi and Acoma are rural. They are
small villages without urban problems or complexity. My question is:
was urban life a facet of the original question for some reason?
						--Sid (not Mr. Kitchel)
--
Sidney W. Kitchel  	    kitchel@cs.indiana.edu, kitchel@dpsi.com
Data Parallel Systems, Inc.  ============||  DPSI  ||===============
4617 E. Morningside Drive	                      (812) 334-8100
Bloomington, Indiana,  47408  USA		FAX:  (812) 334-8121
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Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 17:17:45 -0500
From:         Bob Rogers <rogers@SOL.INSTRUMENTAL.COM>
Subject:      Greek fire
Comments: To: HISTORY@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu

Has anybody, in the spirit of historical enquiry, made any "Greek Fire"
lately?  If they did, and if they survived, did they publish the
results?


--------------------------------------------------------
Bob Rogers            Internet:  rogers@instrumental.com
Instrumental, Inc.    GEnie:     R.C.ROGERS
Minneapolis, MN       Phone:     612-920-6188
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Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1992 11:33:41 EDT
Comments:     Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2
From:         Allan Needell <NASSH100@SIVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: How Low is Higher Education in Clinton's state?

From: Allan Needell

In the 1950s and 60s there were a number of attempts to bootstrap the economic
development of the American Southwest and South, through a planned effort of
obtaining federal support for university graduate schools and the creation of
graduate research centers in the region. Indeed, one of the major points of
debate over the establishment of a National Science Foundation was the degree
to which geographical distribution of federal resources should be mandated. In
the mid 1950s, in Oklahoma, with the encouragement of Kerr-McGee Oil money and
management an effort to improve higher education in the region with federal
grants and private contributions was initiated. In the early 60s the focus
shifted to Dallas, TX, with the establishment of the so-called Graduate
Research Center of the Southwest (supported by Texas Instruments and other
local industrial concerns.) The decision to locate the Manned Space Flight
Center of NASA in Houston was not unrelated to the efforts of this group. The
site of the SSC (near Dallas) is another victory (which seem to have been far
less frequent and far less effective than originally hoped).

Does anyone know more about these efforts or have references to studies of
them?

Allan Needell
National Air & Space Museum
Smithsonian Institution
Washington, DC 20560  (BITNET: NASSH100@SIVM)
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Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 14:10:00 EDT
From:         "Glenn R. Greene" <U953117@RUTADMIN.BITNET>
Subject: Re: The food supply of Tenochtitlan.

This brings up a suitable point for discussion.  Why didn't these cultures
have suitable domesticated beasts.  Assuming, and this a big one, that
the pre-columbian peoples came from the Bering Straight land bridge, some
10,000 years ago, they would have been familiar with many species of
animals suitable for domesication as beasts of burden.  Certain species
of North American elk are very similar to reindeer, which the Lapplanders
of No. Europe domesticated.  The Bison, given time, could have been bred
into a more docile beast.
  Considering the many developmental paralells occuring between the America's
and the rest of the world:the advent of agriculture, the development of
cities, etc., it seems odd that this important feature within domestication
would lagg so far behind.
  WAIT! Didn't the Incas domesticate the Llama as a beast of burden.  They
certainly didn't rely very much on water transport on the sides of mountains.
  This is a slightly different thread.  So if anyone wants to continue this
line, please change the heading.  I would have but I'm already in reply mode.

                                                         Glenn Greene
------------------------------TEXT-OF-YOUR-MAIL--------------------------------

>Not only is land transport more expensive, but the Mayas, Aztecs, Incas, etc  .
,
>had no suitable beasts of burden with which to pull wheeled carts.
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Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1992 12:38:43 EDT
From:         Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject:      RE: Corn Laws, UK vs. Japan

On Tue, 15 Sep 1992 08:21:29 EDT phil said:
>Ken - all the Japanese experts are in Japan right now - Bill Coyle, Larry Deato
>n, and John Dyke.  The other one - Lois Caplan - is on vacation.  They, I am su
>re, would put a significantly different spin on the points raised here.  You'll
> have to wait. Sorry.

That's ok.  There have been several responses in the string on =HISTORY=, and
I felt that it was time to get the experts in on the act.  What a mortal pity
we can't open up our list to them (yet)!
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Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 22:57:00 EST
From:         YONI@BROWNCOG.BITNET
Subject:      Churchill's Plot to Get the U.S into WWII

On the subject of secret war technology in WWII, I would like to know whether
there is any validity to theory which states that Chruchill could have told
the U.S of the imminent Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. Churchill decided to
hold the information from the U.S  in order that the U.S would find no choice
but to fight. The U.S's assistance in WWII was vital for an Allies' victory.
Foreseeing this, Churchill did not inform the Americans of the Japaneses' plans.
How much truth is there to such a theory? I do not recall where I read about
it, but I think it was a book review of a book on the subject.
thanks
Lw
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Date:         Wed, 9 Sep 1992 10:44:34 BST
From:         Christopher Currie <c.currie@CLUS1.ULCC.AC.UK>
Subject:      Re: Educational reform, or the act is fat, uh,
              parent to the thought

>
> Even the conservative adviser to Bill Clinton, next President of the United
> States,
>

Hey, Dan! I don't believe this part of your post. This is called Making a
Point.

Christopher
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Date:         Mon, 7 Sep 1992 21:50:08 METDST
From:         George Welling <welling@LET.RUG.NL>
Subject:      Re: Boosting the ratings
              7,

Thank you Dan. For once I succeeded in posting a self-fulfilling prophecy.
--
                =
             ___|_____               George M. Welling
            /        __|____           phone : +31 50 63 54 74
       _|__         /      /             fax : +31 50 63 49 00
      /    /_______/______/                History and Computing  HCI
     /____/    | ______|__                 depart. ALFA-INFORMATICA
 _______|______|_\  o o o |              University of Groningen
      \  o o o o o o o o  |            welling@let.rug.nl
        \                 /
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Date:         Mon, 7 Sep 1992 14:54:56 MST
From:         Jim Emmons <ICJME@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      War

I was cleaning out a storeroom at home this weekend when I came
across a paperweight I bought (I think) about ten years ago in
England.  The paperweight was inscribed with the below quoted
sentiment.  I thought about the recent search for and discussion
of (moral) justification for conflicts and wars, and thought this
was appropos.  (In the quote, "WAR" is used in the old-fashioned
sense of armed conflict.)  There is no inscription or reference
as to who said it - Anybody know?

                       The Morality of War
                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
      War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things;
 the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling
     which thinks that nothing is worth war, s much worse.
     A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight;
    nothing he cares about more than his own persoanl safety;
    is a miserable creature who has not chance of being free,
            unless made and kept so by the exertions
                   of better men than himself.

|---------------|
|Jim Emmons     |                     Any man may be a slave,
|<icjme@asuacad>|                     but a few, if they will it,
|---------------|                     may become kings.
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Date:         Thu, 10 Sep 1992 14:03:00 EDT
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject: re: Clinton Administration?

We have been told for about a year that recovery is on its way,
but the papers are filled with news about sputtering economic
motors. Even the _Wall Street Journal_ (our answer to the _Financial
Times_) deplores Bush's inability and unwillingness to face
reality.

Is George Bush the last true believer in Manchester School
economics? Wearing Cobden's mantle, he proclaims the virtues of
free trade at home, looks for universal peace abroad, and
believes that downturns in the business cycle must be waited out.

Denis Paz
dgpaz@clemson.bitnet