From: gds@york.cs.ucla.edu (Greg Skinner)
Subject: Re: Styling, profiling and pretending
Originator: gds@york.cs.ucla.edu
Reply-To: gds@cs.ucla.edu (Greg Skinner)
Organization: in your face!
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 18:23:07 GMT

In article <1ehl8gINNi8h@morrow.stanford.edu> HF.GTD@forsythe.stanford.edu (Gabrielle Daniels) and I step into the ring again:
gds>For me, the first few dates are a chance to get to know the other
gds>person and vice versa, to determine if there will be anything else
gds>afterwards. [...]
gds>Your mileage may vary.

gtd>Look, Greg. Some guys want to start off on the good foot and say
gtd>here's where I am at. It doesn't scare me, or likewise women, to
gtd>hear this.  It isn't a commitment, it's a statement of where the
gtd>person is.  I mean, the guy may like me, but what he is really
gtd>saying is, let's take it slow  if you have any expectations.

I don't see how what I wrote above differs from what you say.
In the relationship under discussion (mine), I distinctly recall
telling her I wanted to take it slow (so did she).
  
gtd>And I don't care if it's a first or fifth date, people do have
gtd>expectations.  People think while going through the social motions!
gtd>"Oooo, she feels good." "I like that Certs on his breath, I hate
gtd>nasty breath brothers."  And so on.

Expectations are nice, but you have to think realistically.  If
someone's making promises that you have some reason to doubt, you have
to raise the flag.

I think it's people *not thinking* while going through the social
motions that causes the type of problems we are discussing here.

gds>It is still possible to have fun and good times with your SO, even
gds>if they do not feel for you exactly what you feel for them.
	
gtd>This is playacting and phony in some ways.

gds>I still don't understand how this is playacting and phony, if I've
gds>been honest.  I guess we just have a different definition.

gtd>Please reread this:
gtd>Even guys sometimes swing a number on women,
gtd>verbal or otherwise, along the lines of:  "Well, don't take this
gtd>outing/gift/good sex too seriously."  That pulls the plug on any
gtd>electricity going.  You can't be yourself.

This is *totally different* from what I have been talking about!!
I'm saying, if you are honest about how you feel, you can have a good
time with your partner, even though your feelings may not be the same
for her (him).  I'm not saying it's ok to be oblique and nebulous
about where you are at or where you think things are going, or
(falsely) raise the hopes of your partner, or make it seem like the
situation is something else besides what it is.

gtd>I remember going out with a guy and really enjoying myself and the
gtd>moment with him. Then the phone rings and it's his other old lady.
gtd>Does he ring off politely and concentrate on who's here?  No.  The
gtd>rat keeps talking about his extracurriculars. Then when I got mad,
gtd>he says, well he wasn't serious, I knew he wasn't and he had every
gtd>right to do whatever he pleased. Dude nearly lost his life that
gtd>night.

Well, I'm sorry this happened, and I know several brothers (sisters)
who pull numbers like this on women (men).  Not every brother (sister)
is like this.

I used to be angry at the other person when stuff like this happened
to me, then I realized I was just giving them power over me.

gds>I know some guys pull some lines on women (and vice versa -- switch
gds>genders as you will), but I never said anything like that to my ex.

gtd>Greg, will you get a real clue: this discussion is not just about
gtd>you and your ex.  This is about how black people generally relate to
gtd>each other in and out of love.

Funny, this whole debate started because of complaints you had about
me and my ex.

gtd>Well, you heard me a couple of days about black men and the L word.

Well, some black men run from the L word, and some don't.  IMO, if
someone's running from the L word, they're sending you the message
that they're not ready yet, and maybe you just better let them go
until they're ready (if they ever are).

gds>Well, the only power that applies in this case is the power to be
gds>hurt, which lies in the individual.  I didn't set out to hurt my ex.
gds>She was hurt because things didn't work out like she hoped they
gds>would, that's all.  The only way she wouldn't have hurt is if we'd
gds>never gone out, or if I'd fallen in love with her.

gtd>Greg, you still don't get it. But you're young...
gtd>      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I'm not as young as you think I am.  I got burned a whole lot in my
life.  I decided I had to take care of myself.  I decided instead of
looking to the other person to figure out what was going on, I had to
decide how *I* felt about things, and if I wasn't happy, it was time
to leave.

Maybe this doesn't change the truth (whatever that is) about black men
and love, commitment, etc., but it will at least give *you* peace of
mind.  In the end, you can only rely on you to take care of you.
You can't make someone love you; you can't make someone be honest with
you; all you can do is rely on *you*.

gds>I also think relationships work better if they grow on a day-by-day
gds>basis as opposed to having people make commitments early on that they
gds>may not be able to live up to.

gtd>Every relationship is different, baby.  Not everything is so cut
gtd>and dried as you think.

Every relationship is different, but you won't get used if you rely on
your own instincts instead of expecting the other person to act the
way you want.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american,misc.legal