From: bb099@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Adam Trent Phillips)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Why I became an Athiest (was: frustrations with christianity)
Date: 22 Dec 1992 19:30:01 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc10.ins.cwru.edu


tjm@hrt213.brooks.af.mil (Tim Miller) on Tue Dec 22 10:43 1992 posted:
 
|
|        I've been staying out of this one, but this caught me, and since
|I've lived through this myself, I had to try to clear a few things up.
|
|On Mon, 21 Dec 1992 23:21:15 GMT, madhaus@netcom.com (Maddi Hausmann) said:
|
|M> Um, one does not study atheism intensely, not does one "practice"
|M> atheism extensively.  This is why I later corrected you about
|M> your treating atheism as a religion.  It isn't.  It's an
|M> lack of belief due to lack of supporting evidence, 
|M> not a belief that something doesn't exist.
|
|        From: Webster's New World Dictionary of American English, Third
|              College Edition, Webster's New World, Cleveland, 1988.
 
	[Webster's dictionary section edited out to save space]
|
|        Given your description, Maddi, you're an agnostic at least;
|perhaps you're a freethinker deep down, but only time will tell.
|
|        I know a few athiests; they would refuse to accept a deity *even
                                                                    ^^^^^
|in the face of incontrivertable proof* of that deity's existance.
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
|That's what defines atheism, and why atheism is a faith as much as any
|other. 
|
	There is NO "proof" of this god stuff. Most of the "proof" I
have seen is either flawed and contrary to the world as we know it
or is based on "disprooving" there is a god. Also to, for myself at least
, the main issue is not god insofar as it is the supernatural as a whole
that I do not put any stock in.
 
 
 
|        Agnosticism is the true fence-sitter's spot.  If you would
|accept my G-d if I could *prove* He exists, then you are an agnostic.
 
	I am an Atheist and IF you could prove it I would be very interested.
 
 
 
|
|M> As to studying/practicing Judaism intensively, might I suggest
|M> that this can apply to any religion, not just Judaism?  Thus it
|M> isn't an argument for Judaism's rightness, merely proof that
|M> it is successful at indoctrination, since other religions exist
|M> with the same results for those who study/practice heavily,
|M> and these religions have different conclusions that Judaism.
|
|        Speaking personally, I studied and practiced Catholic
|Christianity intesively through my younger years, and Taoism and Taoist
|philosophy through my teens.  Neither held me.  Orthodox Judaism has
|held me, holds me, and will continue to hold me; I love it.  So I would
|say no, your suggestion doesn't hold.
|
|  Someone said (sorry, I nuked the attribution):
|  >I did not imply that atheism was a religion.  What did I mean by a 
|  >weak argument.  Either the blind watchmaker or Pascal's wager strike
|  >me as weak arguments I have often heard that "prove the bankruptcy of
|  >atheism."
|
|        I do mean to state that atheism is a religion.  But that's
 
	But the deffinition you posted says it is not- religion is
usually the beleif in a god, if you MEAN to say that some atheists are
"religiously" acting towards their non-beleif of gods then you MIGHT
have a point (contradictory one at that)
 
|neither here nor there.  I think the issue is that Maddi is
|misunderstanding what is meant by atheism; this is a common confusion.
|The true atheists I know would take pains to correct her misconceptions
|as well.
 
	I feel that there is room in Atheism for a lot of types.
Atheism is not by any means monolithic. I happen to be a materialist
but there are others who are Idealist......
 
 
|
|M> This is true, but the central tenets of Judaism still do not
|M> "feel right" to me, even in the Reform or Reconstructionist
|M> branches.  As I have said repeatedly, these objections started
|M> my journey of questioning.  
|
|        Which makes you agnostic.  QED.
|
|-- Cerebus <tjm@hrt213.brooks.af.mil>
|"On to the next."
 
	I feel that the best deffinitions of Atheism and Agnosticism is:
 
	Atheist: Is sure that there is no god and/or supernatural
 
	Agnostic: is not sure either way, condsiders it a possiblility
 
	or:
 
	ATHEIST: THERE IS NO GOD
 
	AGNOSTIC: THERE MIGHT BE, ARGUMENTS ON BOTH SIDES ARE GOOD
 
	THEIST: THERE IS A GOD
 
 
-- 
A. TRENT PHILLIPS |" A mirror is a negative space with a frame and a place for
  also known as   | your face, it reveals what the rest of us see. It conceals
   WHITE  ROOK    | what you'd like you to be."--Blue Oyster Cult
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