HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: russw@cs.utexas.edu (Russ Williams)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: new view of Chickamauga
Date: 18 Nov 1992 02:53:51 -0600
Organization: Great Northern Hotel
NNTP-Posting-Host: im4u.cs.utexas.edu


At the Tue Nov 17 Austin Civil War Round Table, the speaker was Dr.
William G. Robertson.  He teaches army courses and has been
researching Chickamauga for many years.  He offered a revisionist
view of the battle, in particular the circumstances surrounding
General Thomas J. Wood's shifting his division, leaving a hole
through which the Confederates broke and routed the Union forces.

The conventional story one reads in any account of the battle is that
Negley's unit was moved north to join the rest of Thomas's units, and
Wood's division was ordered to fill the gap.  It is reported that
Rosecrans chewed Wood out in front of his men because Wood's unit
moved up too slowly.  Then a courier later reported to Rosecrans that
Brannan's division was not in place, leaving a hole in the line, so
Rosey ordered Wood to shift north and fill that gap, supporting
Reynolds.  Allegedly Wood was angry about being publicly chastised
earlier and gleefully saved the order saying he would be glad to have
the order in writing later, and moved his division north, knowing
full well that Brannan was there and hence Wood would be leaving his
own area undefended to go reinforce an already defended segment of
the line.  Thus the courier is portrayed as a buffoon and Wood as
a spiteful man who sacrificed victory for revenge on Rosecrans.

Dr. Robertson argued convincingly that this story is exaggerated. 
It did not appear until the 1880s in a pop-history book of the war. 
Dr. Robertson found no contemporary evidence to support the claim that Rosey
chewed out Wood.  And the courier's confusion has been misstated: he
did not miss seeing several thousand men, rather he was told to
report to Rosecrans that Brannan's unit was going to be moved in the
future and so Rosecrans should prepare to fill the gap.  But Brannan
did not move, and when Wood received his order based on the false
information, he did not gleefully execute it immediately but rather
worried about the hole he would be creating; only after his superior
McCook told him to follow it or risk court-martial did he reluctantly
order his men north.

All of the historical detective work will be discussed in a new book
on Chickamauga which Dr. Robertson hopes to publish in a couple
years.

Russ
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
From: glhewitt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Gary Livingston Hewitt)
Subject: Re: What if...
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 18:30:11 GMT

In article <1992Nov15.150821.27718@sequent.com> dickwin@sequent.com (Dick Winningstad) writes:
>In article <1992Nov11.211119.9707@Princeton.EDU> glhewitt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Gary Livingston Hewitt) writes:
>>Things have been slow, so let's try a hypothetical "big-issue" question:
>>What if Fort Sumter doesn't happen?  (Either Lincoln doesn't attempt to
>>resupply it, or the CSA doesn't bother bombing it and works on a
>>diplomatic solution).
>>
>Unfortunately, if Fort Sumpter didn't happen, something else would
>have triggered the Civil War in my opinion.  By the 1850's the country
>had become so polarized that neither side was willing to speak to the
>other.
>The north was divided on whether blacks were inferior or not, not
>whether slavery should continue.  On the slavery question, the noth
>was for abolition (of course to assume 100% proabolition would be
>ludicrous).  The U.S.  was in the unfortunate position of having two
>moral systems in operation with in its borders and the question had to
>be settled forceably by the 1860's because the Union states had by
>then a majority in both the house and senate and would have eventually
>legislated an end to slavery.  The writing was on the wall with
>Lincoln's election (even though he personally was willing to allow
>slavery to continue if it would have preserved the union) because the
>Republicans as a party were proabolition. And the South's attitudes
>had hardened into an uncompromising proslavery stance by the 1850's.

This only proves that some sort of political conflict was necessary by,
say, 1857.  We knos that there had been political conflict over the last
forty years over the same question, with at least three major crises
(Missouri, Nullification, and 1850 & fallout).  None of these came to
war (though Nullification came closest, I guess).  What would be the
spark if Lincoln/Davis don't press the issue at Sumter, if you think
that war was necessary by now?

Was there a possibility of an armed standoff, neither peace nor war,
between the CSA and USA?  What would have been the Northern/Republican
policy with regards to the large number of slaves and slaveholders
(1mil. slaves, I believe) remaining within the pre-Sumter Union?  WOuld
they have allowed sales of slaves South to the CSA?  Would the Union
have fragmented further?  The Confederacy?  Etc.  I'm not sure that the
Civil War as fought was overdetermined in the way you suggest.

Gary
-- 
  ++====+========+==========+=======+===++
  ||    |    Gary| L. Hewitt|       |   ||  HELP!  I've been imprisoned
  || glh|ewitt@ph|oenix.prin|ceton.e|du ||  by my .signature!  HELP!
  ++====+========+==========+=======+===++
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
From: pdunn@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Patrick L Dunn)
Subject: Another Reenactment Question
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 17:40:54 GMT

I am finally about ready to make the plunge and join a living history unit.  
Since I have no real partisan sympathies for either side, I was wondering, 
would it be more expensive to equip myself as a Union or a Confederate soldier?

PDunn
From: jstewart@jstewart-ss2.cisco.com (Jason Stewart)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: Re: what made a good regiment
Date: 16 Nov 1992 17:52:38 GMT
Organization: cisco Systems, Menlo Park, California, USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: jstewart-ss2.cisco.com

I have heard many descriptions of the "Best" troops, but what about the worst troops?
Can anyone think of some particularly dreadful unit which failed time after time.  It
appears to me that "green" troops when thrown into bad situations tended to fail.  Is
this the fault of a lack of training?  poor command structure?  never being under fire?
not having fancy uniforms???

jason
From: dmestre@dept.physics.upenn.edu (David James Mestre-4N27-x5995-Koch)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: Civil War reenactors (Need info)
Date: 16 Nov 92 22:41:20 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania Physics Department


Dear Gentlemen,

	I would like some information on how to start a Civil War reenactment group.  My hope is to raise Co. A of the 54th Massachusetts Infantry Regiment from members of the Univ. of Pennsylvania community.  I have grand plans for this regiment but need to know where to get equipment at competitive prices, how to network with other regiments, where there are Civil War regiments in the Philadelphia area, and how to train in the art of war as practiced by the army regulars of the time.  I hope I can muster the re




giment in a year's time, is this possible?  Also, has there been any effort to raise the 54th in Massachusetts now that it has been reactivated?
	I eagerly await your replies and hope that the call to arms will again be answered to the great huzahs of the souls of the fighting 54.
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
From: afallen@lims02.lerc.nasa.gov (E. Allen Arrington)
Subject: Re: Another Reenactment Question
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: 1st Kentucky Cavalry Co. C
Date: 18 Nov 1992 15:18 EST  

In article <1992Nov18.174054.27033@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, pdunn@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Patrick L Dunn) writes...
>I am finally about ready to make the plunge and join a living history unit.  
>Since I have no real partisan sympathies for either side, I was wondering, 
>would it be more expensive to equip myself as a Union or a Confederate soldier?
> 
>PDunn

I don't think that being a Yankee is more expensive than a Reb (or vice 
versa).  The general number that I've heard quoted for an infantry type is 
$1000.00 to get started (about the same for dismounted cavalry I reckon,
we won't get into mounted cav right now!).  

Since you claim to have no real partisan sympathies, look for a group that 
galvanizies (that is wears blue or gray).  Our unit is CS and US, but the 
only difference in equipment are in the unifrom:  jacket (blue sack coat 
vs grey shell jacket) and hat
(blue or grey bummers cap); the rest of the eqpt is Federal (as a Reb, you 
could have always "liberated" your equipment ;-) ).  

E. Allen Arrington  
        Trooper, 1st Kentucky Cavalry, Co. C 
        Mounted Memorial Unit                 
and Mason (who looks better as a Yankee horse, but I don't hold that 
against him, after all, he was bred in Minnesota ;-) )
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
From: whale@leland.Stanford.EDU (Stephen Schmidt)
Subject: Re: Order of Battle Question
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 92 21:55:44 GMT

In article <92326.144502MXJ113@psuvm.psu.edu> <MXJ113@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
>    Hello out there-
>       Does anyone know of an Order of Battle that was published
>      for both the Union and the Confederacy, any info much appreciated
>
  If I can plug a friend of mine... :)

  There is a good book called Unit Organizations of the Civil War by
Richard J. Zimmermann. It is divided into two sections, one describing
how various units were organized historically, and the second containing
OOBs for First Bull Run, Shiloh, Antietam, Gettysburg, and Chickamauga.

   More generally, you might want to consult Official Records. I suspect
someone has done a complete OOB but I don't know where.
-- 
Steve Schmidt			<><		   whale@leland.stanford.edu
I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist
indoctrination, Communist subversion, and the international Communist
conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids!
From: mar@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Maryann Riggs)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: Re: Another Reenactment Question
Date: 20 Nov 1992 03:22:55 GMT
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.4
Originator: mar@csd4.csd.uwm.edu

P Dunn at Ohio State re your question about the cost of outfitting to begin
reenacting:

My husband had his first reenactment this September in Davenport, IA with
the 16th Ark infnantry unit. Here's what we put into it for him so far:
$ 17 Muslin shirt
$ 50 Pants, sky blue issue
$  7 Button suspenders
$ 15 Belt & Buckle
$ 14 Black slouch hat
$ 30 Canteen
$  8 Haversack
$ 12 Cap box
$160 A tent 9 x 9 x 7
He borrowed enough additional equipment at the event to get thru and found
a reenactor there that sold him an Enfield 3-band replica, bayonet & scabbard,
cap box and cartridge box for $350.
We still need at least the Shell jacket for about $55 and he'd like a sling
belt for the cartridge box ($8 ?). 
Additional items (e.g. vest etc I plan to make from patterns I'll get from
sutlers.
We bought the first list from a sutler on site at the event and his prices
seemed fair. He's got a catalog if you're interested:
    Gerald & Linda Durbin
    1152 Amos
    Des Moines, IA 50315
    515-287-8315
Hope you have at least 1/2 as good a time as we did - it was a real blast.
MAR

Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
From: afallen@lims02.lerc.nasa.gov (E. Allen Arrington)
Subject: cavalry bugle calls
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: 1st Kentucky Cavalry Co. C
Date: 18 Nov 1992 09:47 EST  

I'm looking for cavalry bugle call sources (sheet music, use of the calls, 
when the calls were made, etc.).  

Thanks in advance.

E. Allen Arrington  
        Trooper, 1st Kentucky Cavalry, Co. C 
        Mounted Memorial Unit                 
and Mason (who perfers the bugle to pistols)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
From: cjt1@ellis.uchicago.edu (Charles Ten Brink)
Subject: Re: Civil War reenactors (Need info)
Reply-To: cjt1@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 15:03:25 GMT

In article <97904@netnews.upenn.edu> dmestre@dept.physics.upenn.edu (David James Mestre-4N27-x5995-Koch) writes:
>
>Dear Gentlemen,
>
>	I would like some information on how to start a Civil War reenactment group.  My hope is to raise Co. A of the 54th Massachusetts Infantry Regiment from members of the Univ. of Pennsylvania community.  I have grand plans for this regiment but need to know where to get equipment at competitive prices, how to network with other regiments, where there are Civil War regiments in the Philadelphia area, and how to train in the art of war as practiced by the army regulars of the time.  I hope I can muster the r






e
>giment in a year's time, is this possible?  Also, has there been any effort to raise the 54th in Massachusetts now that it has been reactivated?
>	I eagerly await your replies and hope that the call to arms will again be answered to the great huzahs of the souls of the fighting 54.

This is a great idea, and I wish you the best in getting this off the ground.
Getting ready by next year will take a lot of enthusiasm, and, regrettably,
cash.   I took a look through the Civil War News last night, and found a
recruiting ad for the Philadelphia Brigade:
	Bill Rose
	1128 Viking Drive
	Warminster, PA  18974
	(215) 957-5178
There was also an ad recruiting for the 54th in Virginia:
	Captain J. L. Thompson, Co. B
	807 Duke Street
	Alexandria, VA  22314
It may be useful for you to talk with these people; it should at least
give you an entry into the re-enacting community in your area.  The more
experienced members of existing units should be able to recommend good 
sutlers and weapons dealers.  This is going to be fairly expensive; my
lieutenant, who is also a sergeant in the 24th Michigan, tells me that
it costs at least $750 -$1000 to outfit an infantryman, and that doesn't
include many extras.

You will probably want to check out some publications.  I think these will
send you a sample copy, so you can see if you want to subscribe:
	Civil War News		(617) 646-2010
	ReEnactors' Journal	(800) 554-1864
	Camp Chase Gazette	(614) 373-1865

At the very least, a copy of any one of these will give you a gazillion 
advertisements for vendors of the things you will need.

This is all from the perspective of a novice.  I'm sure some of our more
experienced members can provide more specific info.
--Chuck

-- 
D'Angelo Law Library         "The dogmas of the quiet past are
cjt1@midway.uchicago.edu      inadequate to the stormy present. . .
uclcjt1@uchimvs1              We must disenthrall ourselves. . ."
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 14:45:02 EST
From: <MXJ113@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: Order of Battle Question

    Hello out there-
       Does anyone know of an Order of Battle that was published
      for both the Union and the Confederacy, any info much appreciated

                                            -- Thanx --
                                               Mark
From: mar@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Maryann Riggs)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: blank
Date: 20 Nov 1992 02:42:03 GMT
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Distribution: wi
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.4
Originator: mar@csd4.csd.uwm.edu


Newsgroups: alt.war
From: jac54@cas.org ()
Subject: The Intelligence War in 1941
Followup-To: poster
Organization: Chemical Abstracts Service, Columbus, Ohio
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 13:42:51 GMT


	The Center for the Study of Intelligence of the CIA has
	published a monograph entitled:

	"The Intelligence War in 1941: A 50th Anniversary
	Perspective"

	(Publication no. TE/CSI 92-002)

	This is an excellent review of five major intelligence
	contributions to World War II, i.e.

	The British use of ULTRA

	The Double Cross System

	The Abwehr and Admiral Canaris

	U.S. Intelligence on Japan

	Soviet Intelligence

	Each topic gets about eight pages (8.5"x11") of review and is well
	referenced for further study.  I recommend it as a useful educational
	aid.  In addition, it's free upon request.


	How to get hold of it:

	In writing:

	CIA
	CSI
	Washington, DC 20505

	By phone:

	(703)-351-2698

	They are willing to send multiple copies if you contact them in
	writing.  This is the heart of the problem.  A misunderstanding
	has resulted in my receipt of approx. 100 copies of this publication.
	I had asked about the possibility of getting multiple copies, I
	did not ask for multiple copies.

	If anybody in the central Ohio area (i.e. near enough to me to
	pick up or have dropped off) has a bona fide educational use for
	a number of copies of this publication, please contact me to
	arrange delivery or pick up (at no charge).  I will also send
	single copies to people outside the U.S. (using the cheapest
	method I can find.).

	Alec Chambers

	P.S. If anybody from the CIA is reading this, thanks for a very
	well done monograph.

If these are my organization's opinions, I'd be extremely surprised.
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
<Alec Chambers (jac54@cas.org)  + Americans are a broad-minded people. They'll>
<Associate Editor, CAS          + accept the fact that a person can be an     >
<Phone (614)-447-3600 ext. 3992 + alcoholic, a dope fiend, a wife-beater, and >
<                               + even a newspaperman, but if a man doesn't   >
<Unsolicited Mail:              + drive there's something wrong with him.     >
<P.O.Box.21368                  +                                             >
<Upper Arlington                +  Art Buchwald.                              >
<OHIO 43221-0368                +                                             >
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Newsgroups: alt.war
From: CLF@ECLX.PSU.EDU (Christopher L Frame)
Subject: Alt.War is GREAT
Organization: Penn State Engineering Computer Lab
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 19:13:40 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24

In <1992Nov11.204355.8867@news.columbia.edu> dan@cubmol.bio.columbia.edu writes:

> 
>    I don't have the stats handy, but the latest readership report for
> news shows that alt.war is decreasing in popularity. I place the blame fr
> this on sci.military.  It seems to me that they are letting in much more
> non-technical articles than they used to. So perhaps there is less need
> for alt.war.
>    But since I created alt.war, and I still think it is a useful group,
> I will try to stimulate some discussion that is clearly out of sci.mil
> charter.


	Oh come on.  Not everyone can read every newgroup all the time.  I have
recently been neglecting alt.war because I'm collecting information on building
AR15's and have needed the time to review rec.guns.

	I've had some GREAT discussions in World War II on alt.war about the
significance of the Stalingrad Campaign. 

Christopher Frame

Newsgroups: alt.war
From: magnus@bark-fddi.ii.uib.no (Magnus Alvestad)
Subject: Re: Great Wall of China
Reply-To: magnus@ii.uib.no
Organization: UVBS -> SFK/T-DSA / SOPS - HOS / RNoN
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 03:13:16 GMT

> The Great Wall

I think it was quite effective because the mongols used horses
extensively. It's pretty hard to get a horse across one of these
walls. Well, we all know the mongols won, so it didn't work. :-)

-Magnus
Newsgroups: alt.war
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Subject: Re: Great Wall of China
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 16:27:16 GMT

In article <1992Nov19.105457.14374@daimi.aau.dk> leeman@daimi.aau.dk (Steen Lehmann) writes:
>dan@cubmol.bio.columbia.edu (Daniel Zabetakis) writes:
>
>>   How effective was the Great Wall of China? I don't know much about the
>>history of the area, so I don't know how well it did what it was supposed,
>>or even what it was supposed to do.
>
>I read someplace that its function was not so much to repel the attackers, 
>but to make sure they didn't get away with very much loot. I can't provide
>the sources, I'm afraid, but I think it makes good sense.
>

That information is in the instruction manual that comes with the
computer game "Civilization."  I can't speak for the accuracy of the
manual, but it's a great game.

Joe Dzikiewicz

Newsgroups: alt.war
From: buckley@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (BUCKLEY  CHARLES RAY)
Subject: Re: Great Wall of China
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 10:06:50 GMT

In article <1992Nov19.022250.15553@news.columbia.edu> dan@cubmol.bio.columbia.edu (Daniel Zabetakis) writes:
>
>   How effective was the Great Wall of China? I don't know much about the
>history of the area, so I don't know how well it did what it was supposed,
>or even what it was supposed to do.
>
>   I am inclined to think that it wasn't an effective barrier. Unless the
>wall was continuously and heavily garrisoned, it wouldn't prove too much
>of a barrier. Any lonely section could be overwhlemed and breached.
>   The more likely useful function I can imagine is that the wall could
>quickly signal an invasion. If the wall was thinly garrisoned, it could
>still be used to warn of an invasion and allow extra time to raise an army
>and choose where to repel the invaders.
>
>   Anyone know more?
>
It was both effective and ineffective. It was very effective in deterring
smaller raids. A sizable force would have to be raised to take a section
of the wall in the first place. Secondly, transportable loot is not the easiest
items to carry over the wall. A force would have to remain together a transfer
its loot over the wall while the Chinese were counterattcking with its (usually)
larger forces.
 Lrager invading forces were able to come over the wall, but since they were
larger there would (once again, usually) have warning of the attack. These the
main armies would have to meet to defeat. Also the spy network needed depended
upon a strong leader or government
 Most of the migratory groups in the north had very little knowledge of the
engineering skills needed to quickly reduce sections of the wall, so the wall
was effective at delaying the enemy forces ofany size. It was the delay that
was effective, the ability to actually repulse an invasion was entirely 
dependant on the ability of the chinese to use the delay to effectively marshal
the necessary forces

>
[.sig deleted]

It just didn't seem like alt.war without a discussion of China.

Charles Buckley  buckley@ucsu.colorado.edu



Newsgroups: alt.war
From: mjoseph@vax.clarku.edu
Subject: how's about alt.me262
Organization: Clark University
Date: 17 NOV 92 02:04:40 GMT

can someone talk about airplanes in war like the me262. Is there an alt.sex.
aircraft?
Newsgroups: alt.war
From: CLF@ECLX.PSU.EDU (Christopher L Frame)
Subject: Re: Powered Body Armor
Organization: Penn State Engineering Computer Lab
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 19:21:19 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24

In <BxzBCy.3It@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> jhan@descartes.uwaterloo.ca writes:

> If you were going to have power armour, why would you only carry a pair of G-11's?   I would consider a 7.62 GPMG a MINIMUM- if you have the ability carry the firepower, than carry the firepower.  If you were to optimize a power suit for urban warfare, than a 7.62 or a 14.7 (.50 cal) MG would be nice, along with a grenade launcher of some sort (plus the usual thrown variety; now that you're in armour, it doesn't matter as much if a grenade goes off a little close- but remember, not too close.  (;-) 


	I agree.  One of the REASONS for acceptance of POWERED combat armor is
to haul heavier weapons like a 20mm cannon.

C Frame

Newsgroups: alt.war