HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: norris@athena.mit.edu (Richard A Chonak)
Subject: Time to break up the US?  (was: Re: apparently a dilemma)
Reply-To: norris@mit.edu
Organization: l'organisation, c'est moi
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 02:42:18 GMT

In article <1993Jan8.062824.12094@news.vanderbilt.edu>, rickertj@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu (John Rickert) writes:
|> 
|>    Being a (Burkean) conservative, I am opposed to revolution.  On the
|> other hand, things seem to be approaching a condition in which revolution
|> appears to be the only available recourse, given my deeper beliefs.  More
|> specifically, I have little hope in the culture in the United States today,
|> and it appears to have taken hold so tenaciously that the usual means will
|> not be of much avail.  Advice?



Has anyone given any thought to the possibility of breaking up the US into
several countries of more reasonable size?  

As a starting point, we could consider sub-dividing the States roughly along
the lines of Joel Garreau's "Nine Nations of North America":

	New England
	The Foundry: NYC to Indianapolis, and everything north
	The South: DC to Houston, and everything south
	Mexamerica: San Antonio to LA
	Ecotopia: the left coast, from San Francisco through Alaska
	The Breadbasket: Dallas, Chicago, Fargo, etc.
	The Energy Quarter: The Rockies

(Garreau's other 2 "nations" were Quebec; and the Caribbean, with HQ at Miami.)

Here are some possible benefits (just off the top of my head, so to speak):
	-- each new nation would be more homogeneous in culture and values
	-- the break-up would be an instant step toward greater subsidiarity
	-- no more flag-worship: the new nations would identify patriotism 
	   more with place and people, less with 'democratic' ideology

And -- who knows? -- we might even get a couple of recognizably Christian
countries out of it all.

Perhaps the fall of communism will obviate the need for a unitary North
American state as much as it splintered the Slavic empire.

PS: This isn't thoroughly thought-out, so don't hold me to this... ;-) 

---
Richard Aquinas Chonak, norris@mit.edu, Usenet addict, INTP
I have very exclusive and nuanced opinions.  License info available on request.
See you at the March for Life Jan 22 in DC!
Newsgroups: alt.revolution.counter
From: deane@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Subject: Re: ENR
Reply-To: deane@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Organization: Brandeis University
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 19:14:55 GMT

Umm, I'm experimenting here...don't know if this will work...
hang on...

David Mattthew Deane
Newsgroups: alt.revolution.counter
From: jk@panix.com (Jim Kalb)
Subject: Re: Time to break up the US? (was: Re: apparently a dilemma)
Organization: Institute for the Human Sciences
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 15:30:07 GMT

In <DRW.93Jan11231637@euclid.mit.edu> drw@euclid.mit.edu (Dale R. Worley) writes:

>Another thing that Americans have in common is The Constitution, and
>the cluster of political values it is based on.  Since we have so
>little else on which to base our sense of "nationhood" (especially
>because we are an immigrant nation), The Constitution is held sacred
>here to a degree that Europeans find hard to believe.  Unfortunately,
>it seems that counter-revolution (as far as I can tell what you people
>mean by the phrase) would require doing away with the Constituion, and
>many of the political values under it.

Depends on what you mean by "the Constitution".  If you mean the body of
doctrine currently applied by the Supreme Court, you are right.  That
doesn't seem the relevant meaning, though, since doctrine has changed
radically from time to time while reverence for the Constitution has
remained largely unchanged.

People's political goals differ.  But there aren't many goals that would
be inconsistent with text of the Constitution (possibly with a few
amendments), together with some body of doctrine that bears a
relationship to the text of the Constitution similar to that borne by
current constitutional doctrine.  If constitutional values are stated
appropriately, almost anything can be gotten out of them and the process
need not even be in particular bad faith.  So I don't agree with your
final sentence.
-- 
Jim Kalb (jk@panix.com)
"We are, I know not how, double in ourselves, so that what we believe we
disbelieve, and cannot rid ourselves of what we condemn."  (Montaigne)
Newsgroups: alt.revolution.counter
From: jk@panix.com (Jim Kalb)
Subject: This Group
Organization: Institute for the Human Sciences
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 15:09:50 GMT

There has been no traffic on this group at my site for the past several
days.  Does that show that the participants have chosen silence as their
weapon in the struggle against modernity, or does the explanation lie
deeper?
-- 
Jim Kalb (jk@panix.com)
"We are, I know not how, double in ourselves, so that what we believe we
disbelieve, and cannot rid ourselves of what we condemn."  (Montaigne)
Newsgroups: alt.revolution.counter
From: myempire@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Matt J. Martin)
Subject: Re: Time to break up the US?  (was: Re: apparently a dilemma)
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 03:13:45 GMT

In article <1993Jan12.035139.28533@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu> corleyj@helium.gas.uug.arizona.edu (Jason D Corley ) writes:
>
>Factionalism, as far as I can tell, seems to me to be a basic expression
>of rights.  What all government does not, and by its nature, cannot
>address is the unique needs and abilities of every individual-- factionalism
>grows from the desire to express those needs with those who feel the same.
>Unique ideas and ideals cannot be controlled, or even comprehended by
>_any_ governmental system.  Factionalism is the only option--and even
>THAT's not a particularly good one.  The natural tendency is to splinter
>and splinter into smaller and smaller subgroups until one realises that
>no matter how far you split, you still won't have a group that can
>understand you, because all individuals are different.  Does that make
>sense?
>

  Anthropology teaches us that all people are, in fact, exactly the same.
To deny that is too embrace instability, anarchy, war, famine, death, 
destruction, and all the things that can really ruin your whole day.


>As far as eliminating the United States federal government, it's a start.
>Decentralization is the first step towards true self-government.  The
>more responsibilities people have to take on, the more they realise their
>duty to themselves and to each other.  Of course, it's not feasible, as has
>been already pointed out, but one can dream, right?
>

  But the more of us we create, and the smaller our planet grows as a result,
the more we need to cooperate just to survive.  To embrace political 
fragmentation is to reject social stability.  To insist that everyone has a
right to create their own perfect little government is to claim that 
self-interest should be the law of the land.  Are you ready to make that claim?


---
  ##########################################################################   
  ##   /   ##               Progress Before Peace!               ##   /   ## 
  ##  //   ## Matt J. Martin, Technosociology and Space Politics ##  //   ## 
  ## ///// ######################################################## ///// ##
  ##   //  ##        Purdue University, West Lafayette, IN       ##   //  ##
  ##   /   ##           myempire@mentor.cc.purdue.edu            ##   /   ##
  ##########################################################################


Newsgroups: alt.revolution.counter
From: deane@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Subject: re: break up US?
Reply-To: deane@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Organization: Brandeis University
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 06:46:43 GMT

Not having read the book (as is probably true for most of us), could you
explain a bit more the arguments of Garreau's "Nine Nations of N.America"?
Sounds to me like he is using an argument based on economics. If so, how
do ethnic factors fit in? (Show me a "nation" which pretends such factors
don't exist, and I'll show you another Yugoslavia, USSR - or USA)

If the author is using mainly economic arguments, it seems to me that the
trend is the other way - towards larger and larger units. If a breakup
occurs along ethnic lines, however, the authors boundaries don't make
any sense. I would predict further unrest and breakup. Even Quebec has
large ethnic enclaves.

An interesting idea though. Let's hear more!

David Matthew Deane       "Often verbose, but seldom mean!"

P.S.: Is anyone familiar with Nairn's "the Breakup of Britain"?
Newsgroups: alt.fandom.misc,rec.arts.sf.fandom
From: ecl@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper)
Subject: Re: What new innovation, software or products do you want to see?
Organization: AT&T
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 01:28:46 GMT

In article <sehari.726196524@lisa.ecss.iastate.edu> sehari@iastate.edu (Babak Sehari) writes:
> What type of new innovation, software or products do you want to be
> introduced to the market place.  No answer is stupid.  The things
> that might be unachievable to you, might be very easy to produce
> by others.  You could become part of history by initiating the process of
> innovation.
> 
> Send your answers, along with it's possible applications to me via
> Email.  We might be able to produce things that you might never thought
> possible, for you. My Email Address is sehari@iastate.edu.
> 
> P.S.  This message is being automatically posted to all unix wide bbs'. 
> This post does not mean that I approve or disapprove this newsgroup.  Also,
> the moderator of the moderated newsgroups, such as rec.humor.funny, should 
> decide if they want this posting in their newsgroup.

How about something that prevents idiots from posting to inappropriate groups?

Evelyn C. Leeper  |  +1 908 957 2070  |  att!mtgzy!ecl or  ecl@mtgzy.att.com
--
"To make the point [that homosexuals hamper military effectiveness] I'd
say that you would have to sift through your military history till you
find an instance in which failure has been attributed to the presence
of homosexuals on the losing side.  I'm not aware of any such case in
the past 2500 years, but I'd be interested to hear what you find."
-Nathan Engle
From: victor.volkman@hal9k.ann-arbor.mi.us (Victor Volkman) 
Newsgroups: alt.fandom.cons
Subject: Re: CONVENTION MASQUERADE
Date: 9 Jan 93 14:17:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: HAL 9000 BBS, W-NET HQ, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Reply-To: victor.volkman@hal9k.ann-arbor.mi.us (Victor Volkman) 

Dave Weingart said this about Re: CONVENTION MASQUERADE


DW>Message-ID: <1993Jan7.152042.19137@mail.cornell.edu>
DW>Organization: CUMC
DW>References:  <57.46.uupcb@hal9k.ann-arbor.mi.us>

DW>
DW>In article <57.46.uupcb@hal9k.ann-arbor.mi.us>, victor.volkman@hal9k.a
DW>|> I always find them boring and a little bit embarrassing to watch.
DW>|> Especially people who wear the same costume for three days in a row
DW>
DW>Then why watch?  That would be like me going to a panel on Deryni magi
DW>And I refuse to be responsible for people who can't or won't change th
DW>clothes.

Hmm... a valid question I suppose.  Probably because none of the decent 
room parties start until after its over I guess.  Just me being bitchy!


---
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Newsgroups: alt.fandom.cons,alt.fandom.misc,rec.arts.sf.fandom,rec.arts.startrek.fandom,alt.fan.furry
From: jesse@uts.amdahl.com (Jesse Mundis)
Newsgroups: alt.fandom.cons
Subject: anyone have info on Potlatch?
Summary: Where/when is it?
Keywords: con, northcal
Date: 11 Jan 93 18:16:06 GMT
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

I've heard there is going to be some kind of con (Potlatch??? or something like
that) around the Berkely California area at the end of February.  Could someone
please send me info on this, if you know anything about it?

Thanks,

Jesse Mundis
-- 
    Jesse Mundis     |      Amdahl Corporation       | Freedom is just chaos
jesse@uts.amdahl.com | 1250 East Arques Ave  M/S 316 | with better lighting.
   (408) 746-4796    |   Sunnyvale,  CA 94088-3470   |    -Alan Dean Foster 

#include <Disclaimer.standard>
From: mwallis@lunacity.com (Michael Wallis)
Newsgroups: alt.fandom.cons
Subject: Re: anyone have info on Potlatch?
Keywords: con, northcal
Date: 11 Jan 93 20:28:57 GMT
Organization: LunaCity BBS - (Clan Zen Relay Network) Mountain View, CA

jesse@uts.amdahl.com (Jesse Mundis) writes:

> I've heard there is going to be some kind of con (Potlatch??? or something li
> that) around the Berkely California area at the end of February.  Could someo
> please send me info on this, if you know anything about it?

Tom Whitmore is running this literary convention (Potlatch II actually).
You can contact him at Other Change Of Hobbit Book Store for information.
The number is:

        (510) 848-0413

It looks like it'll be a good, small, interesting convention.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Wallis -> mwallis@lunacity.com

PLAN:   Live fast, die young, leave a neat corpse.
        Oh ... I'm too old to die young?     Rats!
From: lion@TheRat.Kludge.COM (John H. Barlow)
Newsgroups: alt.fandom.cons
Subject: Re:Baycon address
Keywords: Baycon
Date: 11 Jan 93 02:07:40 GMT
Reply-To: Kelley712@silicon.relay.ucm.org
Organization: T.H.E.R.A.T. BBS     Sunnyvale, CA     +1 408 736 8849

I recieved this from Kelley James, Head of Publicity/Advertising BayCon 
93.
 
  ----- begin cut here ------
In regard to your mail to BayCon being returned, I think I can help you.
I'm the currant head of publicity, and it has only just in the past few 
days
that this problem has become obvious.....

If you would care to, please send your registration to the un-official
address of BayCon Publicity, at:  260 Truckee Lane
                                  San Jose Ca. 95136
                                  ATTENTION REGISTRATION.

I will see to it that all such mail is forwarded (Read "hand-carried") to 
the
appropriate persons.
 
Mail may be sent to other departments besides Registration, and Publicity 
by
addressing it to ATTENTION: Department name

This is for the BayCon 1993 season ONLY.  I will NOT take responsability 
for
BayCon 1994!

Kelley James
Head of Publicity/Advertising.
 
 ---- cut here ----
 
Her E-mail address is Kelley712@silicon.relay.ucm.org, but please limit 
mail to that address.
 
    Lion

--
John H. Barlow
internet: lion@TheRat.Kludge.COM     uucp: ...!apple!therat!lion
From: arkon@aol.com (Stephen Hill)
Newsgroups: alt.fandom.cons
Subject: Baycon address??
Date: 8 Jan 93 21:32:22 GMT
Followup-To: alt.fandom.cons
Organization: ArcTypics


   I mailed the $$ for Baycon registration to the address on all the little
pamphlets (another person I know did the same), and it was returned saying
the P.O. box was closed.  Anybody know whats going on with this?
   (I'd post the address, but it's not handy right now)

   Btw, I mailed this the monday after Silicon (trying for the $25/silicon
thing)

---

  ArcTypics,                                         arkon@aol.com
     Mac Networking and Database Design         Pager: +1 (408) 289-7155
                                                       (*) YiP (*)
From: mwallis@lunacity.com (Michael Wallis)
Newsgroups: alt.fandom.cons
Subject: Re:Baycon address
Keywords: Baycon
Date: 11 Jan 93 20:18:46 GMT
Organization: LunaCity BBS - (Clan Zen Relay Network) Mountain View, CA

lion@TheRat.Kludge.COM (John H. Barlow) writes:

> Her E-mail address is Kelley712@silicon.relay.ucm.org, but please limit 
> mail to that address.

She can also be reached at:

        kestrel@lunacity.com

The BayCon PO Box we set up for 1992 should still be active. That address
is:

        BayCon
        PO Box 10367
        San Jose, Ca 95157

If that's the address that your mail bounced from, something is SERIOUSLY
wrong with BayCon. The Chairman for '93 is Michael Siladi. I'd recommend
contacting him. His phone numbers are:

        (415) 967-5256  home
        (415) 941-9191  work
        (408) 995-9665  pager

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Wallis -> mwallis@lunacity.com

PLAN:   Live fast, die young, leave a neat corpse.
        Oh ... I'm too old to die young?     Rats!
Newsgroups: alt.fandom.cons,rec.arts.sf.tv
From: coon@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Subject: ARISIA 93 to preview Babylon 5
Reply-To: coon@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Organization: Brandeis University
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 19:19:38 GMT

Special Announcement:
--------------------

ARISIA 93 (January 15-17 at the Boston Park Plaza Hotel and Tower) will
be showing a Boston exclusive sneak preview into the making of, and 
production segments from the upcoming science-fiction television series, 
Babylon 5.

In addition, other works in progress from computer animation, and film 
studios will be shown, as well as unseen promotional materials from recent
science-fiction films.

Three-day and one-day memberships are still available (at the door).

For further information, consult our general press release on
rec.arts.sf.fandom, or e-mail to this address.

(Sorry for the cross-post! rec.arts.sf.fandom readers!)

Heather Coon
Head of Programming - ARISIA 93
(coon@binah.cc.brandeis.edu)
Newsgroups: alt.fandom.cons,alt.fandom.misc,alt.horror
From: rguilbert@llnl.gov (Rose Guilbert)
Newsgroups: alt.fandom.cons
Subject: BayCon '93 Address ???
Date: 7 Jan 93 23:36:05 GMT
Distribution: California
Organization: AIS Info Center LLNL

Help!!!  I sent my registration and check the first of December to the
address:	
  BayCon '93
  P.O. Box 10367
  San Jose, Ca. 95157

It was returned to me last weekend with a notice from the Post Office
that the box is closed.

Does anyone have a different address or know if the box has been reopened?
From: victor.volkman@hal9k.ann-arbor.mi.us (Victor Volkman) 
Newsgroups: alt.fandom.cons
Subject: CONVENTION MASQUERADES
Date: 6 Jan 93 07:10:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: HAL 9000 BBS, W-NET HQ, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Reply-To: victor.volkman@hal9k.ann-arbor.mi.us (Victor Volkman) 

-> Despite the so-far underwhelming attention given it by the concom and
-> the fen, it looks like my wife and I will be running the I-Con XII
-> masquerade.  What I'd like to hear is what _you_ the costumer and
-> _you_ the fan prefer at a masquerad

I always find them boring and a little bit embarrassing to watch.
Especially people who wear the same costume for three days in a row.
                                                                                                                             
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+------------------------------------------+-----------------------------+
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Newsgroups: alt.fandom.cons
From: phydeaux@guru.med.cornell.edu (Dave Weingart)
Subject: Re: CONVENTION MASQUERADES
Nntp-Posting-User: @cornell.edu
Organization: CUMC
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 15:20:42 GMT

In article <57.46.uupcb@hal9k.ann-arbor.mi.us>, victor.volkman@hal9k.ann-arbor.mi.us (Victor Volkman)  writes:
|> I always find them boring and a little bit embarrassing to watch.
|> Especially people who wear the same costume for three days in a row.

Then why watch?  That would be like me going to a panel on Deryni magic!
And I refuse to be responsible for people who can't or won't change their
clothes.

-- 
73 de David Weingart  KB2CWF    In the event I am captured or killed, the
phydeaux@cumc.cornell.edu       Cornell University Medical College and the
phydeaux@guru.med.cornell.edu   Department of Academic Computing will disavow
phydeaux@src4src.linet.org      any knowledge of my opinions.
Newsgroups: alt.sci.planetary
From: barba@patty.gud.siemens.co.at (Barbara Nowak-Teufl)
Subject: Re: The Planetary Society
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 14:40:22 GMT
Organization: SIEMENS Austria Corp., A-1100 Wien, Gudrunstr. 11
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

MURTY Hema Sandhyarani (murty@ecf.toronto.edu) wrote:
> In article <C0MAG7.A7K@zoo.toronto.edu> henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) writes:
> >In article <93010946@sloth.bc.ca> chris@sloth.bc.ca (Chris Brougham) writes:
> >>I saw an add in S&T for an organization called the "Planetary Society."
> >>What's this organization all about? are there any members that
> >>can give me a brief summation of the organizations "mandate?"
> >
> >>Apparently the publish a magazine called that "Planetary Report,"
> >>is this magazine monthly or quarterly and is its format like S&T 
> >>or a scholalry journal?

[ deleted ]

> 	I recommend joining them - they are a very interesting group!
> _________________
> Dr. H. S. Murty
> National Research Council of Canada

I recommend that too - the "Planetary Report" is an unbelievable and
great source for fun and amusement at a reasonable price! 

The Planetary Society is an essential lobby for people that want to 
spend a weekend on the moon. I think they are to blame for some people's
change from the White House to a clinic for nervous deseases, because
they tried to establish a regular transport system to the moon under
the President's protection.

A big thing is that they promote survival training on the Aleutes and
force manned mars exploration - or at least manned Camchatca exploration 
with mars mobiles ...
--
Barbara Nowak-Teufl 		barba@patty.gud.siemens.co.at (Europe)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.planetary
From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: The Planetary Society
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 21:16:17 GMT
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology

In article <1993Jan12.144022.17498@siemens.co.at> barba@patty.gud.siemens.co.at (Barbara Nowak-Teufl) writes:
>The Planetary Society is an essential lobby for people that want to 
>spend a weekend on the moon...

I find this hard to believe; can you supply details?  There are groups
that want to promote access to space for everyone, but the Planetary
Society was **NOT** one of them in the past.  Their one and only priority
was scientific exploration, and they didn't care about the Moon at all.
Have they changed that much?
-- 
"God willing... we shall return."       | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
       -Gene Cernan, the Moon, Dec 1972 |  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry
From: chris@sloth.bc.ca (Chris Brougham)
Newsgroups: alt.sci.planetary
Distribution: world
Subject: Meteorite Collecting and Study
Organization: sloth prince george, bc
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 93 03:40:34 GMT

Hi,

Thanks to those who took the time to respond to my query on the
Planetary Society.

I recently became interested in the study of meteorites; however, I 
found that my local library only has two texts, written in the 
1960's, on the subject. Indeed, one proposed that tektites were from 
the lunar surface. I would like a recommendation on an up-to-date
text on meteorites - one that discusses SNC's and the latest theories
on tektites etc. 

That's for my scholarly side.

For my fun side ...

Are there any good books on how to find meteorites in the "wild" as
well as nifty collecting and trading strategies? :-) I read one review
in S&T a while back which was panned by the reviewer, Robert Haag,
(Meteorite and Tektite Collectors Handbook by Phillip Bagnall), maybe
other folks have read this book and found it OK?




---
chris brougham
chris@sloth.bc.ca
Organization: Johannes Kepler University Linz - Computing Center
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 11:32:53 CET
From: <K3032E0@ALIJKU11.BITNET>
Newsgroups: alt.sci.planetary
Subject: Re: Meteorite Collecting and Study
Distribution: world

*Sorry*, in my text I just posted one line is missing|
Here it is:

...but from dozens (possibly hundrets) of meteors photographed, only three
meteorites (Innisfree, Pribram and Lost City) have been collected...

  Herbert
Newsgroups: alt.sci.planetary