HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: another poem
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 28 Sep 92 16:45:42 GMT

In article <7607@monmouth.edu> c1741@moncol.monmouth.edu (MICHAEL CARSON) writes:
>In article <2AC62E11.12269@news.service.uci.edu> cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>>
>>But, it's not entirely unexpected.  Clinton has become noteworthy at the
>>very point in time when people (perhaps for the last time) are trying
>>their damnedest to deny all this "feminism" shit.
>	
>	"Last time"?  Somehow I have difficulty in being so optimistic. :'(

Me, too, but sometimes it just feels good to say it. 

>>Marilyn Quayle and Barbara Bush (whatever they may be privately) are the
>>lasst bastion of old womanhood nationally -- the college senior and
>>sorority president who scoped out the graduating class and surrounding
>>fraternities to see who looked like he'd make the most money.  Clinton
>>is the one who got out, got a useful degree, got a job, and met her
>>husband on his own terms, as an equal.
>
>	What is interesting is that doing what you suggest BB and MQ did
>shows a great deal of self-interest and determination to make a good life
>for themselves.  I think this is also the aim of getting a good job and
>living independantly.  Different paths, same goal.  If ya ask me, we ALL
>should be able to take whichever path we want to take.

After hearing so many net men personally flame me for all the times they
got turned down for a date because they didn't make enough money or
drive a nice enough car, I have a real hard time taking this seriously.
The next time that cute little number you're interested in laughs at you
and then turns around and dates the schmendrick in the next cubicle who
drives a BMW, tell me this again with a straight face.

Blessings,
Janis
From: conib@peri.gvg.tek.com (Coni Britten)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: books to avoid
Date: 1 Oct 92 22:11:41 GMT
Organization: Grass Valley Group, Grass Valley, CA

Dear WenD:

In article <9209292228.AA19288@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU> ST801706@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU writes:
>book is ultra-ultra-ultra feminist, as in the brand of feminism
>where all women are perfect and all men can sink into a swamp and
>die.

As a feminist, I have to object to your equating feminism (with ultras
attached or not, it's still feminism you're referring to) as being anti-male.
At any level.  This concept is definitely what folks like Jerry Faldwell
and Rush Limbaugh want people to believe -- they both repeat this bogus
"aspect" of feminism quite a bit.

Feminism and man-hating two different things.  Period.  If they are not,
then by your definition, a man can not be an ultra-ultra-ultra feminist.
Obviously they can, and are.

Sorry about the flame, but, well, there it is ... we speak our minds in
this newsgroup!


Coni Britten
conib@peri.gvg.tek.com
From: perky@acs.bu.edu (Melissa Sherrin)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Mysterious Ways
Date: 3 Oct 92 19:59:07 GMT
Organization: Boston University, Boston, MA, USA
Originator: perky@acs.bu.edu


Whoah there, Mr. Paul Harvey... underground hip-hop/rasta music inappropriate 
for pagans?  I certainly hope not, since I love the alternative scene.  I do 
like some folksy stuff, but my truer love would have to be with groups like
The Cure, The Sisters of Mercy, James, etc...  What kind of music does everyone
listen to here?  I've wondered, and now that I can post, I ask...

Melissa
From: c1741@moncol.monmouth.edu (MICHAEL CARSON)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Tarot traditions
Date: 28 Sep 92 13:57:04 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Monmouth College, W. Long Branch, N.J.  07764


	I've been hearing some interesting things lately about the tarot..

	As an example:  One friend of mine INSISTS that you must NEVER buy
your own deck.  It's okay to give somebody the money, and get THEM to buy it
for you (how this isn't the same as them buying it and you then buying
it from them I haven't figured out, yet.) and that after you get the deck,
you must sleep with it under your pillow for three days.  Has anybody else
heard of such traditions?
	
	On a slightly different note:  I've heard several people say they
like a deck, except for one or two cards..  What is keeping you from taking
cards from several decks?  I see two things: physical differences, as in
size, shape, back art and different artisic tones of the face art.  The
second is magickal  I don't know how the energy of the cards would interact
with the pick and choose method.

|o|\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/|o|
|o| Of Course I speak  |      michael carson       | Carpe Diem, Man.        |o|
|o|  only for myself.  | c1741@moncol.monmouth.edu |                -me      |o|
|o| Would YOU let me   +---------------------------+-------------------------|o|
|o|  speak for you?!?  |      All flames to: nobody@moncol.monmouth.edu      |o|
|o|\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/|o|
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: radzy@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (T. O. Radzykewycz)
Subject: Re: another poem
Organization: International Computer Science Institute, Berkeley, CA, U.S.A.
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 04:21:59 GMT

blchapma@eos.ncsu.edu (BEKKI LYN) writes:
> I've often been critisized for not having long fingernails.
> I've tried a few times when I've gotten into the mood, but I never
> kept them.  They got in the way and I hated them.

It's a sad commentary on our society that this kind of harrassment
happens.  This is another symptom of the same illness that Janis
was complaining about a little while ago, with regard to cartoon
"beauties."  Same sickness, different symptoms.

Personally, I like short fingernails.  Not that I want to take away
people's priviledge about having what they want, but I *do* prefer
them short -- both on women and on men.

My SO has short fingernails, and has since I met her.  I suspect she
experimented with long ones earlier, but in spite of having fingernails
that are thin and strong (which would make them "beautiful" if she grew
them long), and in spite of the jealous statements of other women (including
her mother) about how *they'd* have long fingernails if theirs were
as hard as hers, she keeps them short.

Bekki Lyn, I just wanted to let you know that there are other people
who don't get suckered into the societal norm.  You're not alone!
(I'm sure glad *I*'m not alone in this.)

Blessings!

		-- radzy

------------------------------------------------------------
					|  An it harm none,
	T. O. Radzykewycz	     	|  do as ye will.
	The Incredible Radical Cabbage	|
					|  "Just pray for a
	radzy@cogsci.berkeley.edu       |  tough hide and a
	        			|  tender heart."
	        			|    -- Ruth Graham
------------------------------------------------------------
Tribal Mother was old, and lay ill on a bed of moss and
fern.   Her hair was long and grey.   Her face was very
wrinkled.    Tamura'nun-pa thought:   How beautiful you
are, Mother, so old and wise.
Xref: sparky alt.pagan:10576 alt.magick:5076 alt.astrology:1954
From: dhardin@bbn.com (Dawn Hardin)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Witches and death
Date: 29 Sep 1992 18:23:24 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: bbn.com

In article <1992Sep29.174908.19760@radian.uucp>, markbr@radian.uucp (markbr) writes:
> 
> Actually, Iwonder, if there is such a thing as reincarnation, if you
> have a choice nowadays, since there are more people alive, *now* than
> have *ever* lived. Or are there just *lots* of first-timers?

My theory is that it's linked to how much fewer animals there are now.  Most
of the people being born now really should have been wombats or spider monkeys
or tree frogs for a couple of dozen lifetimes yet.  It explains an awful
lot.

Dawn
"Oh, Time!  Of all the dwellers here below 
You only elevate buffoons or fools,
Or him whose anus as an inkstand serves."
The Perfumed Garden of the Shaykh Nefzawl, translated by Sir Richard F. Burton
From: ymir@eagles.uucp (Ymir Thunarsson)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: men's spirituality (was Re: New Pagans and Reading)
Keywords: do it thineself
Date: 26 Sep 92 23:17:16 GMT
Organization: Eagles Reaches Church of Asatru - Elder Hof

lilleyc@cs.man.ac.uk (Chris Lilley) writes:

> In article <gBXmRB2w165w@eagles.uucp> ymir@eagles.uucp (Ymir
> Thunarsson) writes: 
> 
> >Ailsa!
> 
> >  Unfortunately, you are showing yourself to be the bigot. A highly uninform
> >and spiteful one at that. LAY OFF! It's unbecoming and achieves absolutely n
> >purpose (except maybe to fuel your own vanity and prejudice). 
> 
> Yeah, right! Ailsa - don't you realise how *unladylike* it is to point
> out other peoples mistakes? How arrogant to present your own opinions!
> Don't you know your *place*! And darling, it's so *unfeminine*
> 
> <chortle>
> 
> <grin>
> 
> Ymir, try reading ailsa-'s post again - with your head on. Backing up
> your compatriots right or wrong is all very well but doesn't half make
> you look foolish in public.
> 
> Particularly when you back up your paltry arguments with mere name
> calling, like you accuse ailsa- of doing.
> 
> Sure ailsa- gets rude on occasion - but unlike you, she does it with
> STYLE.
> 
> Hugs, ailsa-
> 
> 		Chris
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Chris Lilley
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Technical Author, ITTI Computer Graphics and Visualisation Training Project
> Computer Graphics Unit, Manchester Computing Centre, Manchester, UK
> Internet:   lilley@cgu.mcc.ac.uk        Janet:   lilley@uk.ac.mcc.cgu
> Voice:      +44 (0)61 275 6095          Fax:     +44 (0)61 275 6040
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chris,
  I guess you are right if you consider vulgarity stylish. It would not have
mattered to my whether this was a man or a woman. I just feel that such insults
are unneeded and counter productive. Actually, I feel that Hulda went to far
with her statements without a presentation of the facts that are available to
her to work with. By the way, I never claimed to be stylish myself. If people 
want to get their kicks degrading others on this net...then I guess I don't
belong. Most who know me would tell you I am very hard to anger and even harder
to anger to the point of verbally "spouting off". So as an olive branch I offer
this: Ailsa and Chris (and any other interested parties) let's exchange some
information about each others beliefs and practices (with refs. of course)
while not being judgemental about the validity of the opposing belief. Perhaps
we may learn from each other.

      Merry Meet, Blessed Be, Hare Krisna, Amen, May the Force be with You,
      Live Long and Prosper, Wassail, etc...(Is that broad enough?)

                    Ymir Thunarsson
From: st923058@pip.cc.brandeis.edu (Rosaleen Dhu)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: stuff
Date: 30 Sep 92 22:06:33 GMT
Reply-To: st923058@pip.cc.brandeis.edu
Organization: Brandeis University


	1. Welcome, Jill. :)
	2. All of you who may or may not be having an alt.pagan get-together
at Samhain, have fun. I'll be there in spirit. (If you see a short, chunky
girl ghost with long black hair, that's me.) Anyone interested in getting
together an alt.pagan meeting somewhere in New England? I'll help organize
if I can.
	3. Cat stories: According to apocrypha, both of my cats are magickal:
one is a ring-tailed cat and the other is mostly black. However, I've
never noticed anything magickal about either of 'em...except that at least 
one of them ALWAYS seems to know when I'm depressed and seeks me out for
some serious purring on my lap. I don't think that this is unusual--most
cats probably rate pretty high as Empaths--but it sure is nice.
				Stars light your collective paths,
					Rosaleen 
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: Who do you kneel to when you pray?
Organization: noitazinagrO
	<1992Sep30.193600.27086@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 23:58:09 GMT

In article <1992Sep30.193600.27086@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com> 
billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
>radzy@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (T. O. Radzykewycz) writes:
>: But the common thread between the two is "Don't worship any
>: other gods/goddesses.  I'm too jealous."  Gimme a break.  Isn't
>: that a bit like saying "If you have any other friends, then
>: you aren't one of *my* friends."  So juvenile!

>I think that is in the interpretation. The usual dogma that the
>Christian quotes for this is one of the "10 Commandments".
>It generally is translated as "Thou shalt have no other god before me."
>Now, many Christians incorrectly read this as "Thou shalt have no other gods."
>However, what is really says is that other gods are allowed, only that the
>one god must be primary. It says nothing about other gods being evil.

And, "evil", has no religious meaning in Judaism. Judaism is pure monotheism,
there is only "I am that I am". The notion of "evil" in a religious sense
comes from the Christian misunderstanding of the Persian Light/Dark dualism.
However, the notion of "evil" does make for a simple dogma: "Hate the sin but
love the sinner." Like: I don't hate homosexuals, I just HATE what they do.
Of course, this just de-personalizes what is often a person. This same logic 
justified the Nazi's "Final Solution". After all, if one Hates the sin, surely
anything is justified in the name of loving the sinner. It's the old, "This is
gonna hurt me more than it hurts you". As Pat Buchannan said, "It IS a 
religious AND cultural *WAR*". And one thing is sure, it is only TV/Fundy-
EVILgelical Christians who know TRUE morality, TRUE family values and TRUE 
HATRED of evil, evil as defined by their own Christian Devil. Hatred is true 
power, ignorance is strength. Luke 14:26 rules! Contrast this to Neitzsche 
who understood the Persian Light/Dark dualism. He said, don't cast out the 
devil in you, for fear of losing your best part. And for that, he is labeled 
by Christian Fundamentalists as one of the most evil men of all time.
From: gil@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au (Gil Hardwick)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: another poem
Distribution: world
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 12:56:55 GMT
Organization: STAFF STRATEGIES - Anthropologists & Training Agents
Reply-To: gil@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au


In article <e3PVRB3w165w@hogbbs.scol.pa.us> wce@hogbbs.scol.pa.us writes:

 > There's an incredible amunt of what I call 'sex pain' that is drummed 
 > into our psyche's by this society. Janis was 'venting' her sex pain, 
 > which incited several net.males to vent their sex pain back at her, as 
 > though she had no rights to her pain because they, too, had suffered.

Thank you for these words.

Sex pain, arising from the same agony a caged bird suffers, or a
chimpanzee at the Primate Centre awaiting an electronic probe to
the brain . . .

Protagony
Antagony
Agony

Look up, and see whose eye it is looking down the microscope at you.



Gil Hardwick                                      gil@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au
Independent Consulting Ethnologist                            3:690/660.6
PERTH, Western Australia                                 (+61 9) 399 2401
   * * Sustainable Community Development & Environmental Education * *
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Witches and death
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 3 Oct 92 05:22:05 GMT

In article <53HXRB1w165w@hogbbs.scol.pa.us> wce@hogbbs.scol.pa.us writes:

> Actually, I suspect we 'wiccans' inheirited by default the doctrine of 
> reincarnation froom the thesophists, et al....
> 
> I have seen no signs, after many years of study, of a convincing modern 
> pagan philosophy of death, or at least one that wasn't lifted whole clth 
> or manufactured by one of the 'founding fathers'.

My personal philosophy is based on a very simple analogy with classical
wave mechanics in physics.  

When a wave passes over the surface of the ocean, just what is it that's
moving?  Not the water; after the wave passes, it's still there.
HOWever, I think we all agree that something passed by.  

The problem is, what?  The water didn't pass -- the "wave" passed.  The
wave is not a material object.  It is a simple energy disturbance that
uses the water as a medium for travel.  It will move along the surface
of the ocean, take up water, intergrate it into its structure for a
while, then pass on and leave the water behind.  

We do the same thing.  Look at your hand.  Then, wait a few weeks and
look at it again.  It's not the same hand.  That hand, as well as
everything that is part of you, was once something else -- air, food,
water, whatever.  You ingest it and use it as a medium to sustain your
wave-structure.  As Richard Feynman remarked, the molecules in your
brain that can now recall what happened fifteen years ago are last
week's potatoes.

In other words, YOU ARE NOT YOUR BODY.  Now, as to what happens to the
wave when the water runs out, when it reaches the boundary of the ocean,
well, I don't know.  The REAL water wave smashes up shells and rocks and
makes sand, sprays foam on the beach, and makes a roaring noise; its
energy is transformed into other forms.  Maybe something like that will
happen to us.  WHAT other forms it will become, I can't say.  This is
not a whole theory, just an analogy, and I don't want anyone thinking
that modern physics supports ANY idea of what happens after we die.  

THIS IS AN ANALOGY.
THIS IS AN ANALOGY.
THIS IS AN ANALOGY.

It is a NICE analogy, but a mere analogy nonetheless.  Also, when I use
the words "transform," "wave," "energy," and "medium," I'm doing it not
poetically, but in a somewhat rigorous sense as defined by a Physics 101
textbook.  Please don't read more into this than there is.

Well, I don't know how it works for originality, but *I*'ve never seen
it from a Pagan source before. 

Blessings,
Janis
From: karl@ddsw1.mcs.com (Karl Denninger)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: question about tarot
Summary: My perspective
Date: 27 Sep 92 15:39:00 GMT
Organization: Macro Computer Solutions, Inc., Chicago, IL

In article <1992Sep27.041554.15373@newstand.syr.edu> pkappess@erc.cat.syr.edu (Peter Kappesser) writes:
>In article <1992Sep22.201858.4365@henson.cc.wwu.edu> n9140397@henson.cc.wwu.edu (Michael J. Hamilton) writes:
>
>>I also find that Eileen Connelly's "Tarot for the Apprentice", et. al. 
>>are pretty good.  She seems to have a pretty broad background and brings
>>in a lot of correspondences including Kabbalistic, Numeralogical, and 
>>Astrological.
>>
>I'm using that book too, although I do have some trouble with the Christian
>imagery in the meditations and some of the interpretations... so as part
>of my study program I'm rewriting them from a Pagan/Wiccan perspective. :)
>
>Blessed Be,
>		-- PeterCat

It is my experience that Tarot reading is a synthesis; that is, while you
can obtain the meaning of any particular card alone from a book (and nearly
any book) the integration of those meanings, and the spread as a whole,
comes only from the ability of the diviner to synthesize the experience and
information into something which has meaning of its own.

To attempt to learn this from a book is in and of itself a poor second
choice.  The ability or lack thereof to synthesize with the cards is an art,
and as such does not lend itself to "scientific" analysis.  It is for this
reason that an attempt to have a computer analyze Tarot spreads would be
useless or worse; the element of mental interaction would be lost.

-- Karl (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, <well-connected>!ddsw1!karl)
From: ST801706@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: books to avoid
Date: 29 Sep 92 22:22:47 GMT

Someone asked about the Laurie Cabot book, _Power of the Witch_
(or something close to that).  Avoid avoid avoid.  Although she is
definitely a colorful character, and her newspaper interviews are
reasonable (I grew up near Salem, I've read some of them) her
book is ultra-ultra-ultra feminist, as in the brand of feminism
where all women are perfect and all men can sink into a swamp and
die.  It's also incredibly ill-informed and gives all kinds of
pseudo-history for Witchcraft as if it were the Truth.


                                     WenD
From: gil@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au (Gil Hardwick)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Witches and death
Distribution: world
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 92 01:07:13 GMT
Organization: STAFF STRATEGIES - Anthropologists & Training Agents
Reply-To: gil@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au


In article <53HXRB1w165w@hogbbs.scol.pa.us> wce@hogbbs.scol.pa.us writes:

 > Actually, I suspect we 'wiccans' inheirited by default the doctrine of 
 > reincarnation froom the thesophists, et al....
 > 
 > I have seen no signs, after many years of study, of a convincing modern 
 > pagan philosophy of death, or at least one that wasn't lifted whole clth 
 > or manufactured by one of the 'founding fathers'.

As Evolutionists deploy the notion of "genes" in expressing the idea
that minute parts of us are carried from person to person through one
generation to the next, someone else (I will try to find the source)
came up with the idea of "memes" to describe parts of "race memory",
which is the spirit disseminated through one culture to another.

The elders here maintain consistently that The Dreaming they hold
(KANYINI=holding responsibility for, to keep; therefore keepers of
The Dream, which is The Law, on behalf of everyone else) is from
the time-before-time, from everywhen, which is today as yesterday
is tomorrow.

The Law is all the spirits of the Mother, cycling and recycling
through the life space continuously. Some of the great spirits of
everywhen are the sun, and moon and stars, while others form the land
and leave signs of their passing richly imbued with their spirit.

The power of witches is of the same order, leaving their presence,
their witch memes, far more richly in their passing, while the power
of the Gods is part of the Mother herself.

There are so very many human forms in these latter day cycles, but
if you get to watch each of them closely you will see for yourself
each one carries the species memes of the bird, animal, insect,
tree or whatever.

As your sister is a bird, so the bird is your sister. As you neglect
the bird so it will take the form of your sister in its struggle for
recognition that you need to hold the bird as you hold your sister,
who will become a mother bringing a life form into its next cycle
after her own kind.

When you hold the bird as your sister, then the animal forms will
return, and there will be less humans.

There is also the dancing, and songs from the Law to be included in
rituals which are also from everywhen, but they are very extremely
powerful. You must sit with the elders to learn them if you want to
become a keeper yourself.


Gil Hardwick                                      gil@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au
Independent Consulting Ethnologist                            3:690/660.6
PERTH, Western Australia                                 (+61 9) 399 2401
   * * Sustainable Community Development & Environmental Education * *