HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Carl J.M. Alexander)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Why not pentacles:
Date: 24 Jul 92 17:15:58 GMT
Organization: Organization???

In article <711843698.F00006@therose.pdx.com> Leonard.Erickson@f56.n105.z1.therose.pdx.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
>
>I don't know about the truth of it, but a quick calculation show that with a 
>5 foot "radius" (forearm + length of sword) if it takes less than 1/12 of a 
>second for the swing, the tip *would be doing around 200... (I'm assuming 
>the swing covers 3/4 of a circle) 
 
Indeed: those figures yield an average velocity for the sword tip of 
193 mph.  But I think your figures may be a little generous.  I do think 
that determining the average velocity is about the most we can do without 
more data:  I think we'd have to do some serious stop motion photography 
to figure out the accelerations involved and, hence, to figure out the 
velocity of the sword tip on impact.  But here are some more conservative 
figures:  Assume a swing of 180 degrees.  Since the radius increases 
(when the sword leaves the shoulder, the distance from shoulder to 
sword tip is three feet; when the tip reaches the other guy's helm, it's 
something over five feet), a low estimate can be obtained by calling the 
radius four feet.  And from the person who mentioned the film of 
Viscount Sir Edward Ziffran, let's call the travel time 1/8 of a second.
That yields an average velocity of 69 mph.  That's still pretty damned 
fast.  And since the one thing we know about the acceleration is that it
started at zero, we can be sure -- unless the guy is pulling his blow -- 
that the velocity on impact is even higher, though we can't say how much 
higher.  I think we can say, very conservatively, that the average sword 
blow in the SCA lands with a velocity in excess of 50 mph.  Imagine 
standing by the side of the highway and having someone in a passing car 
toss a stick of rattan at you.  

Alexander of Kiev                       Carolingia, East

Carl Alexander                          Harvard Square, Cambridge, Mass.
carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu
From: tip@lead.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Question....
Date: 22 Jul 92 19:42:06 GMT
Distribution: usa, na, world
Organization: University of Arizona UNIX Users Group

Unto the good gentle who did first ask after the use of Antlers in
decoration, whose name has escaped the frail clutches of my enfeebled
brain, doth Thomas Ignatius Perigrinus send his greetings,

Good Gentle,  I would be most pleased to espy many and sundry things
decorated with Antlers,  except mayhaps, a good friend or his bed posts.
If I may make so bold,  I would suggest that the association twixt
Antlers and Cuccoldry could make mock of many an innocent decoration,
and I would counsel caution in the use of such charges upon things
associated with marriage or marital trysts.   An I wert so bold as
to advance thee my rood, I might suggest that thou shouldst ne'er 
embroider antlers upon a pillow, thy sheets, or thy nightgarments.

Unless, Good my Gentle,  thou dost enjoy being the subject of much gossip
and tittle tattle.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Carl J.M. Alexander)
Subject: Re: Apology and Retraction
Organization:  Organization??? 
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 19:11:21 GMT

Unto the good gentles gathered upon this bridge, and most especially 
unto that most learned follower of Mohammed, Hossein Ali Qomi, greetings
from Alexander of Kiev --
 
That good gentle, Hossein, has stated that on account of his regrettable 
but understandable confusion between the two Dafydds, and the excessive 
heat with which he, in his confusion, responded, that "The affair has
convinced me that the only alternative available to me in honor is to 
permanently withdraw from this forum."

The most learned and gracious Thomas Ignatius Perigrinus has already 
made known his sentiment, in regard to this matter, saying as he did 
unto the learned Hossein: "My Lord,  may I humbly suggest that in  
fact the only alternative avaialble to thee in honor is to continue 
in this forum."
 
Pray allow me to add my humble voice to his in regard to this sentiment.
 
It is told that early in the history of the followers of Jesus of 
Nazereth (blessed among the prophets and respected among the learned 
of all faiths) that certain men among his followers, in order to 
avoid temptations of the flesh, did disfigure their bodies by means 
of self-castration.  For this the wise and learned fathers among the 
Christians (may their wisdom be preserved forever) did chastise and 
condemn these men, saying thus:  For a man to deprive himself of the
possibility of temptation be not virtue, but grave wickedness.  It is
no virtue to be without sin when sin is impossible:  The virtue is to
live in the world, surrounded by the temptations of sin, and to avoid
these temptations through piety and spiritual striving.
 
Therefore do I say unto the learned Hossein:  Do not deprive yourself 
of temptation, neither should you deprive us of your companionship 
and your learning, but pray, remain on this bridge, in honor, and 
study with us the arts of moderation and gentility.
 
Your most humble servant,
 
Alexander of Kiev                       Carolingia, East

Carl Alexander                          Harvard Square, Cambridge, Mass.
carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: Ann.Feeney@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Ann Feeney)
Subject: Re: Another Pennsic tip
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 17:35:14 GMT

Good gentles, may I add another safety tip for Pennsic?  This came up
because of discussion of assault at Pennsic, but it's appropriate
for any dangerous situation.

If in peril, and you think a scream would summon help, remember
to scream a _word or phrase_. not just a scream.  Especially when
children are around, at play and yelling, a scream can be ignored.
"Fire!"  "Rape!" or just "Help!" tend to summon help much
more quickly and effectively than just a scream.  

In the arboreteum near my old college, there were kids playing all
the time, and I admit that upon occasion, instead of running
in the general direction from which I heard a cry, I just assumed that
it was a bunch of kids, after several incidents where I just interrupted
a game (though once I was asked to play, too!).

Enid Wrigglesworth/
Ann Feeney

--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
From: U254@sysm.acs.virginia.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Basic Courtesy
Date: 24 Jul 92 18:54:00 GMT
Organization: The Internet


Unto the good folk of the Rialto from Landon of Wulfkeep, greetings!

   My thought, for what it's worth (far less than the two coppers
nominally charged, no doubt  :-), is that milord Stephen's words
were far more confrontational in tone than were warrented by their
content (which was, after all, only that such music was not to his
taste).  I really don't object to correction of fact, offering of
advice, or even statement of opposing opinion, but I do think that
courtesy is desirable, and not necessarily at odds with "blunt
speaking".
   There is a great deal of traffic here on the Rialto, and I,
at least, will on occasion skip a flame-filled posting even if it
might well contain information that I would otherwise be interested
in.  Sadly, some of those most learned are also some of those most
prone to cutting down those of lesser knowledge.  I ask you, if you
have something to say, please do not force me to wade through flames
to hear it.  I may not choose to suffer the pain.

Yours in service --

   Landon of Wulfkeep                 Landon Falls
   Isenfir, Atlantia                  Charlottesville, Virginia, USA
From: Cat.Moran@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Cat Moran)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Cameras in the SCA, (ori
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 14:39:42

 RE: earliest photograph

 C>  was early nineteenth century.  Trust me.

 Sorry, I didn't expect you to trust me without documentation, and I'm not  trusting you without documentation!  I think finding my textbook is a lost
 cause...  I'm going to try to find something at the library this weekend.
 If I do find anything, I'll post it.

                        Caitlin


 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Cameras in the SCA, (ori
Date: 22 Jul 92 16:11:07 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article <711490929.F00001@ocitor.fidonet> Cat.Moran@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Cat Moran) writes:
>
>There were some actual photographs taken in period - I saw copies
>of the pictures in my History of Photography class in college.  The
>text book dated them to about 14th century, if I'm remembering
>correctly.  

Sorry, milord/lady; you are not remembering correctly.

>...  The picture was nothing like what we get now - the
>"film" was a mixture of what something similar to asphalt, and egg
>whites (and probably something else I've forgotten).  It was very
>grainy.  Also, the "subject" (the buildings along a street) had to
>"sit" for the picture for about 8 hours.  After the 8 hour
>exposure, the plate was washed, and what didn't come off was the
>picture.  ....

Right; I've seen copies of those photos too.  But that wasn't 14th
century---that was early nineteenth century.  Trust me.



Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin                               Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West                                              Albany CA
Argent, a cross forme'e sable

Disclaimer: This is the Cozzarelli Lab's account, not mine--but I don't
think anybody else ever reads it.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: A3TC@PSUORVM.BITNET (Tim Chase)
Subject: Sex, swords and pagans
Organization: The Internet
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 10:13:58 GMT

To the first, I have noticed in An Tir that there has been a rise in
problems between people at SCA events. I do not know if it is
connected to the growing size of the events or that the SCA is starting
to attract people who need to be watched more than the average. What I
mean is, I have spent more time trying to clear up the He said/she said
game than enjoying the event itself. I have noticed a big jump in drug
and booze usage than is years past. Most of the problems that I have had
to sort out grew out of one or both have had their noze in something that
did not belong at a SCA event.
I was a big suporter of fencing in the SCA until people in my Kingdom
left the art in the background. What I mean is the fencing community
started to refer to the SCA fencers as the Zebra team. That they were saying
was that if you fenced these people would get big red marks from being
slapped with the broad of the blade. I found it very difficult to fence
the people here because they had no real formal training and my blade
would offten be bent from a charge that should have been stoped by
"right of way".
As for Pagans, here in An Tir there is a large community of people
who have done some interesting research into the life style of
the early Pagans. But there are others who use the Pagan title as
a protest against the society around them. Thank the powers that they
are in the minority. I mean no insult to those who are pagans, please
understand that this post looks to what I have seen posted here in
the past 6-7 digests, also myself and a few others have been trying
to keep events in An Tir "out of the papers" by solving little problems
before they get "large". What has been a indexer of problems has been
young kids using booz and drugs and in the background they like to
play Pagan to try and out run the SCA's common code of conduct. Again
please no flames... this comes from about ten years of 2am problem
solving with out the police or the ever present " grapevine-calvery"
group justice that makes finding a solution that much harder. One
thing I have found is that the more people you get into the problem
the less chance you will see the real problem. Hope this helps rather
than starts something I did not want. Then again, I think you now
see that I like looking at the root cause rather than the subject
line.

Tim Chase Computer Operator Specialist
Diamon Isamu Think befor you strike and you will not need lawyer or
              a wepon :)
From: 0003900943@mcimail.COM (Marla Lecin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Another Pennsic tip
Date: 21 Jul 92 19:33:00 GMT
Organization: The Internet

Greetings unto the Rialto, from Jessa d'Avondale! 

The Pennsic Information Booklet states that there will be recycling again
this year at Cooper's Lake.  Glass bottles and aluminum cans should be
separated from the rest of your trash, and brought to the recycling
point(s).  (I hope the Powers that Be are planning on setting up several
this year!) 

For our camp, I plan on bringing lots of the small plastic grocery bags with
handles.  They're small enough to carry easily (even filled with glass),
easy to tie shut, and anyone leaving camp can grab one or two to drop off on
their way to the merchants' area. 

Jessa
From: branwen@cerebus.ccc.amdahl.com (Karen Williams)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Sword speed (was Re: pentacles)
Date: 24 Jul 92 23:47:14 GMT
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <1159@niktow.canisius.edu> salley@niktow.canisius.edu (David Salley) writes:
>Euriol of Lothian writes:
>> I heard that one time. (Begin rumor) that one of the officers took his
>> radar gun out to check how fast the fighters swing their swords. He was
>> to have clocked Duke Radnor's Sword Tip to be going over 200mph. (End rumor).

Sir Jay D'Argent, who is also a Mission College police officer, stopped by
Mission College fighter practice while on duty. He took out his radar gun,
pointed it at Sir Jade of Starfall, and said that Jade's blow was so fast he
couldn't measure it. (I was there.)

>On the other hand, Fast Edd**WHAP!** "..er..ah..Good morning your excellence,
>I didn't hear you come in."  I mean Vicount Sir Edward Zifran of Gendy *has*
>been filmed throwing a sword blow.  Frame 1: Sword leaves his shoulder,
>Frame 2: Sword is between them, going over the other fighter's shield,
>Frame 3: Sword is connecting with the other fighter's helmet.  Three frames
>at 24 frames per second equals 1/8 second for the shot.

Sir Wiglaf Wilfriding is extremely pleased with a videotape made of him
fighting during a tourney. Frame 1: Sword leaves his shoulder. Frame 2: Sword 
hits fighter. Yes, that fast. He used to make us watch this tape all the
time.

Branwen ferch Emrys
The Mists, the West
--
                                          Karen Williams
                                          branwen@cerebus.ras.amdahl.com
"Don't whine. Warrior women speak in a husky whisper."
  -- Brat Pack #3
From: chris@unicorn.resun.com (Chris Von Hendy)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: SCA Rapier combat illegal?
Date: 28 Jul 92 21:37:45 GMT
Reply-To: chris@unicorn.resun.com
Organization: Metalogic, S.a r.l.
X-Mailer: uAccess - Macintosh Release: 1.5v3


In article <1992Jul21.182502.4473@zip.eecs.umich.edu> (rec.org.sca), Rich Addison <Rich_Addison@med.umich.edu> writes:
Sorry for the delay in this but I am woefuly behind on my newsgroups.

> 
> Nicholas van Ledyen (Edward V. Wright), ewright@convex.com writes:
> >>He has heard that this makes our SCA Fencing/Duelling/Rapier
> >>combat illegal in the state.  I find this an interesting question.
> >>Is it illegal?  Is fencing at all active in Lousiana?  How could
> >>we convince the authorities that this is a nationally regulated
> >>sport, and not a form of actual duelling?  Does mundane USFA
> >>fencing take place in Louisiana?
> >
> >As I understand it (and I heard this from a paralegal who had
> >researched the matter), Louisiana law does not make fencing
> >illegal.  It does say that if you kill someone in a duel or
> >fight, with any weapon, you can be charged with murder. 
> >
> >However, it seems that some of the powers that be in Meridies
> >are very opposed to fencing and have glommed onto this as a
> >convenient excuse to keep it out of their Kingdom even though
> >the law itself does not distinguish between steel and rattan.  
> >
> >-- Nicholas van Ledyen
> 
> Just as an observation by one totally unschooled in law, but trained a
> bit in logic:
> The anti-dueling law could probably not be enforced if the weapons used
> were blunted and/or tipped (like a fencing foil) so that one could not
> likely be fatally injured.  This is of course my assumption about the
> spirit of the law, without having read the letter of it.  It may depend
> on a legal definition of lethal weapon in the jurisdiction in question.

I would like to point out that there is a difference between dueling
and the style of fighting that is found in the SCA or on fencing teams.
In a duel you are trying to injure your opponent.  Neither the SCA or
fencers have this as a goal.  There was probable never a law that
prohibited people from training in the use of the sword, and the law
would likely view fencing as a training exercise.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Von Hendy            "If we shadows have offended,
Escondido, California       Think but this, and all is mended,
ncr-sd!blkhole!chris  or    That you have but slumbered here,
chris@unicorn.resun.com     While these visions did appear." Puck
From: hwt@bwdlh490.BNR.CA (Henry Troup)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pentangles, Mueseum books and photography
Date: 28 Jul 92 12:23:59 GMT
Reply-To: Henry.Troup@BNR.CA
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa, Canada

In article <wHT8NB1w162w@micor.ocunix.on.ca>, graydon@micor.ocunix.on.ca
(Graydon) writes:
|>
|>Pentacles are also not the best charges going, because they are hollow.

My favorite pentacle in mundane heraldry is the British Public Health
Inspectors - Per pale, a pentacle counterchanged.  I don't recall the
colours off hand.  It's in the
Book of Impersonal Arms, and was granted about 1930.
                                   
  Henry Troup - HWT@BNR.CA (Canada) - BNR owns but does not share my opinions
   "Nature abhors an atmosphere.  Check your suit.  Check your buddy's suit."
From: PAULB@saturn.uark.EDU ("Paul A. Byers")
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: a paper Rialto?
Date: 23 Jul 92 21:19:30 GMT
Organization: The Internet

A friend told me there is a paper version of the Rialto out of the
Outlands. Hve any of you heard about this?

Also the same friend told me that the BOD is getting ready to make
some annoumcement about Master at Arms. Again anyone heard anything?

Pavel
Calontir
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: GEN0036@Husky1.StMarys.Ca (Loki)
Subject: Rialtan Violence (was Re: Courtesy, Filking, Violence)
Organization: St. Mary's University, Halifax, N.S., Canada
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 20:18:47 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.12.SMU

Stephen writes:

>On the subject of violence at events, Brynjolfr wrote...
>
>>These facts are true anywhere. One thing I learned a long time ago is that
>>nowhere is safe... The supposedly safer rural areas can be just as
>>extremely violent as cities. This applies to events, too.
>
>It also seems to apply to the Rialto.  :^)

Well, I think it would be hard to argue that actual *physical* violence is
practiced upon this bridge... The technology is simply not there (despite
all those cartoons of people getting punched out by their computer screens
;) so it's rather unlikely to happen.

 +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
 |Most commonly known as Loki, occasionally sysop of TWWOL                  |
 |SCA: Brynjolfr Myrkjartanarson, founder of the Compaignie Mercurie, in the|
 |Canton of Seashire, Barony of Ruantallan, Laurel Kingdom of the East      |
 +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
 |    The unwise man thinks he will live for ever if he shuns fight, but    |
 |    Old age gives him no peace though spears may shun him. - The Havamal  |
 +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
 |        The Net: gen0036@husky1.stmarys.ca, gen0036@stmarys.bitnet        |
 +--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: bq434@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michael A. Chance)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Steward's office restructuring.
Date: 29 Jul 92 15:14:29 GMT
Reply-To: bq434@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Michael A. Chance)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)


In a previous article, Lothar wrote:

>While looking through Reitstapp's Armorial General (a massive
>compilation of European arms, both civic and personal) a couple of years
>ago, I found:  
>
>     Vittorio (Italy) Or, a laurel wreath, vert. 
>
>In light of this conflict I wonder if the arms of the SCA are defensible
>as a service mark at all? After all, somebody else used it before us and
>might still be using them.  Any of you legal types want to comment? :-)

Not a legal type, but a heraldic type.

Firstly, the arms of the Society were registered in an era when
Papworth's Ordinary of English Armorials was the only source of real
world armory the Society's heralds had ready access to.  Even today,
it's not a frequently used resource (for a variety of reasons).

Secondly, the only place that the arms mentioned could possibly be a
conflict is in Italy, since real world heraldic institutions confine
there jurisdictions to (mostly) national borders (unlike the SCA, which
makes an attempt at universal coverage).  What practical effect
displaying or using said arms in Italy would have is dependant on the
current Italian laws regarding armorial display and protection (if any
exists).  Master Arval has made the argument that, even if such laws
would forbid the use in real world usage, the SCA's usage is essentially
that of "improvisational theater"; that is, our events, etc., are a
re-creation of a general historical era, not a modern, real-world usage
of heraldry.

To date, to the best of my knowledge, no one has ever formally
contacted any real-world heraldic authority (and several exist) to
ask what the laws are within their jurisdiction regarding heraldic
display within the context of what the SCA does.


Mikjal Annarbjorn
Deputy Hippogriff Pursuivant
Barony of Three Rivers, Calontir
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca