From: dsblack@iastate.edu (Vilkata TDK)
Newsgroups: alt.supermodels,soc.women,alt.feminism,soc.men
Subject: Re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?
Date: 6 Nov 92 04:06:24 GMT
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA

In <Bx9sGt.LAM@world.std.com> marty@world.std.com (Marty M HaleEvans) writes:

>I writes:

>>said something that reminded me of similar experiences, tho not that extreme.

>>Whenever any female friend (not SO) of mine sees my Elle calendar or a swimsuit
>>calendar at a store, or even a similar gif on the computer, they almost always
>>say, "Geez, that's kind of demeaning.  I hate it when they pose in swimsuits;
>>I just think it's detrimental," or something similar.  I've found that this
>>_always_ works:
>>I ask them, "Yeah, but what if it was a Chippendale calendar/pic?  What would
>>you think about it then?"  To which they kind of smile (they know I've got 
>>them), giggle a little, and say, "Oh, that's ok.  I don't mind that.  There's
>>nothing wrong with that."  They know I've got them nailed, but they respond
>>honestly anyway.

>Okay, what about those of us that *do* hate the Chippendales, too? What can you
>say to us? What I'm hearing here is that it's okay if I do it, because someone
>else does it. Please tell me that's not what you really think.

No offense; honest question: Are you male or female?   (I can't tell from your
name.)  If male, then I would ask if you like swimsuit calendars.  (By swimsuit
calendars, I mean women-in-little-or-no-clothing calendars.)  If you do, I
think (opinion) you should try to be more tolerant.  If you're a female, well,
I guess I haven't ever had a female tell me they hated the Chippendales.  Some
don't really enjoy them enough to buy them or look at a friend's, but none I
have talked to (and that's quite a few!) have said they were offended.

>>the Elle calendars.  Why?  CUZ WE'RE HETEROSEXUALS, DAMMIT!!  Of COURSE guys
>>like pics of girls and girls like pics of guys!  How stupid can these people 
>>be?  It's just natural!

>Is it? I hate beefcake. I do like pictures of men I find attractive in other
>ways (friends, performers whose work I like, etc.), but male bods just for
>the sake of bubble buns on my wall? Nah.

Here I'm beginning to think you're female.  I could be wrong, of course.

>>The difference (this might sound sexist, but I'm just observing--any flames 
>>will be ignored) is that I honestly don't ever remember hearing any of my male
>>friends say that they were offended by the Chippendale calendars.  (Well,
>>sarcastically, maybe, but _definitely_ not seriously.)  That's because we
>>realize it's the same thing.  But I do hear a lot of girls complain about the
>>calendars we like.  It's like it's okay for them but not for us.  Which, of
>>course, is absurd.  I honestly wonder why guys can accept it but many girls
>>can't....

>Frankly, I know a lot of guys who have trouble with it, for the same reasons
>the women cited: it makes them feel inadequate and doubtful about their own
>relative attractiveness. Let's not generalize from our own circle of friends,
>whose numbers are almost necessarily too small and homogeneous to make a good
>sample, okay?

Good point.  I still haven't seen any guys who were offended, but you're right:
my circle of friends doesn't necessarily reflect the feelings of the majority
of the population.

>You did ask for other peoples' observations, right?
>Marty

That I did.  And (at the risk of sounding new-agey) I'm glad you expressed
your views.  And I _definitely_ appreciate the fact that you responded in a
non-flame manner.  I can see a lot of people flaming at an article like that...

For those who have trouble with friends criticizing their calendars, I'd still
suggest trying the techniques from my original article ("But you like the
Chippendales, don't you?"), but Marty has brought up some good points--I guess
it might not always work.