HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: heath@athena.cs.uga.edu (Terrance Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: The Literary Canon
Date: 12 Aug 92 17:21:10 GMT
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens

In article <1992Aug12.144636.1955@cbnewsj.cb.att.com> ecl@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper) writes:

>
>I would think the slave narratives are even older than than.  But the
>problem is that in an overview course, there is no time to provide the
>context.

Actually, the slave narratives are not quite as old as some novels. Of
course, that depends on which narratives you're talking about. Those
published around or after 1850 are a little more difficult to deal
with as they were, in some cases, embellished by the whites to whome
they were transcribed.

The slave narratives that I prefer to deal with are the wittnesses
recorded as they actually spoke, and most of this was done  through
recording the recollection of former slaves, many many years after the
Civil War.  I consider these to be the authentic voice.




-- 
"Black men loving black men is THE revolutionary act!"
			-Joseph Beam_
Terrance Heath 
heath@athena.cs.uga.edu
Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:14969 soc.history:7584
From: Christopher.Carne@brunel.ac.uk (Christopher J Carne)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,soc.history
Subject: Re: History for Valley gals
Date: 18 Aug 92 13:30:15 GMT
Organization: Brunel University, West London, UK

In article <1992Aug14.162310.9797@nas.nasa.gov> wismith@amelia.nas.nasa.gov (William R. Smith) writes:
>John McCarthy writes:
>
>>I have been brooding with Clayton Cramer's gal who didn't know
>>that the U.S. had a Civil War.  The trouble with history is that
>>in all those times and places too many different things happened.
>>Historians who know about them like to inflict on us
>>Valley girls too many of them.  The solution is to merge many of
>>these events to give a coherent, inspiring and politically
>>correct picture.  Here's a try at the history of America.
>>
>>     Invasion of America by Dead White European Males
>>
>>     When Columbus and the Pilgrim Fathers landed at Plymouth
>>     Rock, they immediately marched to California to enslave the
>>     Indians and get the gold, oppressing the Pilgrim Mothers all
>>     the way.  In Denver, California they imprisoned Montezuma
>>     and Sitting Bull in a convenient dungeon.  However, an
>>     African-American named Abraham Lincoln tunneled into the
>>     dungeon and freed the slaves.  Lincoln was later killed by a
>>     ball fired from a canon built by the dead white European males.
>>
>
>
>
>Many, many moons ago "Mad Magazine" (does this count as a book reference?)
>noticed the same problem.  Their solution was similar.  They broke everything
>into "The Good" and "The Bad", and presented a quick history of the 20th
>Century.  Hitler was Bad.  The one I remember was Eisenhower.
>
>	Eisenhower was a very, very good man.
>	Everybody loved him.
>	He was elected President in November 1952,
>	inagurated in January 1953, and
>	took over the duties of office
>	in June 1956 following the
>	death of John Foster Dulles.
>
>
>
>William Sburgfort Smith
>Intel, SSD

Sounds like Mad Magazine were ripping off Sellar and Yeatman's wonderful
'1066 and All That' as in 'Charles the Second was a Good Man but a 
Bad King'. The books is a kind of parody of the kind of stuff that
was tought in pre-war (that's WW2, oh come *on*. That was the one with
Hitler, you know the guy who looked like Charlie Chaplin and did so
much to combat unamerican activities in Germany (last line pinched
from 'Catch-22')) Britain seen through the hazy memory of those who it
was taught to. 

There are of course only two dates in History 55BC (The Invasion of
Julius Caesar who called the English 'Weedy, Weenie and Weaki'.

And thus America was clearly top nation and History came to a .

(So you can see where Francis Fukayama got his idea from)

Anyway it all beats reading stuff on the relationship between,
historiography, narrative and time which has been me lot over
the past coupla weeks.


CHR$

 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: Paul Schroeder
Subject: Re: _Time's Arrow_, by Martin Amis
Organization: BNR
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 13:52:39 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.224313.4696@informix.com> proberts@informix.com (Paul
Roberts) writes:
>You did read it starting at the back and working forward, didn't you?
>
>Paul
>
>I wonder what Kingsley Amis thinks of his son's work? I somehow don't
>imagine him liking the style very much, I don't imagine him saying so,
>either. Did anyone ever hear of either of them comenting on the other's
>style?

Kingsley has been quoted as saying that Martin's novels are "a bit thin" and
are not to his taste.  However, he seems glad of the success that Martin has
attained.  For his part, Martin has acknowledged some minor literary influence
from Kingsley;  however, he has been more influenced by American writers.

Kingsley Amis is one of my favorite writers, and I am currently reading _The
Alteration_ (very good so far).  However, I've been very disappointed with
Martin Amis' novels, although I enjoyed _The Rachel Papers_ somewhat.  I did
not like _Dead Babies_, _Other People_, _Money_, or _London Fields_, and do not
intend to read either _Time's Arrow_ or _Success_
From: chucks@uars2.acd.ucar.edu (Chuck Smythe)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: The Literary Canon
Date: 13 Aug 92 15:22:10 GMT
Organization: Ntl Center for Atmospheric Research, Atmospheric Chemistry

In article <BsvxzL.HqM@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca> msmorris@watsci.waterloo.edu (Mike Morris) writes:

 English class that was racially and economically mixed. She would
 assign a short story or an essay or a poem for discussion the next day
 and was shocked to find that her students ignored every reading assignment
 she made. At first she figured she was just not getting any respect
 for being a ``sub'', but it turned out that every English teacher in
 the school corroborated the observation. All of them were resigned
 
 	Yes.  My wife teaches sixth grade English, and reports that the
	basic obstacle to improved education is finding some way to get
	the students to do the work.  Any work.  Her method is to try
	to make it meaningful to them (e.g. writing assignments are not
	book reviews, but a subject chosen by the student), but even she
	admits that about a quarter of them can't be excited about _anything_!
	Surely getting the students to do some work is the parents' part
	of the job?  In most cases it isn't getting done, and unless that
	can be changed the following......

 but knowledge and skills. I would structure the curriculum over all twelve
 grades so that in mathematics, there'd be two years of calculus at
 the end, in science, there'd be two years of biology, two years
 of chemistry, and two years of learn-calculus-as-you-go physics.
 There'd be a broad structure in grades 1-6 of learning skills, in grades
 7-12 in introducing the application of these skills. So I'd require
 history every year. Lots of dates and timelines and geography and biographical
 sketches for grades 1-6, narrative and critical history for 7-12. I'd
 have twelve years of a foreign language, probably Spanish in the States,
 with students expected to be reading Spanish literature in 7-12. And in
 English, grades 1-6 would teach reading and writing and grammar, grades
 7-12 would be an introduction to canonical world and American
 (and sometimes local) literature and composition. This is where Homer
 and Dante and Hardy and Baldwin would come in.

...........is a wonderful fantasy.  It is impossible for _teachers_ to
	get students to do a tenth that much work; they simply aren't
	with the students for that many hours.  It has to be done by 
	the family.                        
	   BTW, I suspect that even with all the parental support in the
	world, only a minority of students are going to succeed with a
	curriculum like that.  Such an achievement requires more than 
	average intelligence, hard work, mental health, absence of
	dyslexia or hyperactivity....can you cite _any_ country where
	the majority of students meet such a standard?

			Chuck Smythe
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: rsquires@cyclops.eece.unm.edu (Roger Squires)
Subject: Re: The Literary Canon & Women
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 21:06:19 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

In article <1992Aug19.153313.8086@sco.COM> maureenw@sco.COM (Maureen Wilkes) writes:
>In article <gy0m5yj@lynx.unm.edu> rsquires@cyclops.eece.unm.edu (Roger Squires) writes:
>>
>>		Charlotte Gilman's Herland--This is the Project Gutenberg Etext.
>>		This file should be named hrlnd10.txt or hrlnd10.zip and is made
>>		for release on Mother's Day, May 10, 1992, to honor all mothers.
>>
>>		I have only one line of editorial comment to make about Herland:
>>		I found it worthwhile to compare Herland to Dances With Wolves
>                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Pardon?
>

	This are not my words; rather those of the editor (Mr. Hart?)
	of the electronic edition.  I have not read Herland.

>                       Maureen Wilkes

Roger Squires
rsquires@cyclops.eece.unm.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: vince@cadence.com (Vince Gibboni)
Subject: Re: _Time's Arrow_, by Martin Amis
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Distribution: rec
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 18:37:34 GMT

proberts@informix.com (Paul Roberts) writes:
>
> I wonder what Kingsley Amis thinks of his son's work? I somehow don't
> imagine him liking the style very much, I don't imagine him saying so,
> either. Did anyone ever hear of either of them comenting on the other's
> style?
>
    According to an article on/interveiw with Martin Amis in (of all places) 
    the November 1990 issue of _European Travel and Life_ magazine:

        Amid Amis's increasing success, one his most noticeable critics
        has been his father. Kingsley Amis has openly stated that, despite
        the closeness between the two men, he finds his son's books 
        "unintelligible". He admits to not being able to finish his son's 
        books, presumably including _London Fields_, which is dedicated to
        him.

        "I [Martin Amis] think it's harder for him having a son who's
        a writer. It's natural to look up to your elders for being 
        distinguished, but no one likes to think of young writers coming 
        along - especially when it's your own son. You tend not to 'get'
        younger writers, because what they are saying to the older writers
        is: It's not like that anymore, it's like this."


    Curiously, although I've seen/heard/read probably a dozen interviews
    with Martin Amis (well, if you count the Letterman appearances), I've
    never once heard him comment upon his father's writing.
    
    I have just finished reading my first Kingsley Amis book (_Lucky Jim_)
    and was struck by two things: 1) it's a damn good book and 2) the 
    characterizations reminded very much of some of Martin's work. There's
    a sort of deadpan reporting of what are - for effect - borderline-
    ridiculously overblown characters which, if Martin did not (consciously
    or unconsciously) adopt from his father then, it seems to me, must certainly
    owe itself to some Amis-linked genetic trait.



--
                                                         vince@gda.cadence.com
    Back in London they'll take you to heart after a little while 
    Though I look right at home I still feel like an exile
        - Elvis Costello
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: dmpowell@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Darin M. Powell)
Subject: Re: The Literary Canon
Organization: Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 17:21:29 EDT

In article <65470@hydra.gatech.EDU> barclay@RAIL9000.gatech.edu (Barclay Blanchard) writes:

>I think that the reason that minorities and women haven't been better
>represented in the canon is that most of the critics, writing about works
>that engaged them, have been white males.  Most of academia has been white male
>and still is as far as I've seen.  
>
>I think minorities and women deserve their place in the canon and will get it
>as more minorities and women become literature professors, as I intend to do.

	
	Quite right. The canon will grow to include black and women
	and other traditional "minorities" over time.  It took hundreds
	of years for the current canon to be created, so it is silly
	to expect that it will change overnight.

	Writers are dropped from the canon all the time...just check
	out the recent discussions in this group on the shortcomings
	(actually, the unreadability) of James Fenimore Cooper.

	I don't think it's wise to demand that currently popular writers
	(minority, woman, or otherwise) be placed in the canon *now*.
	Immediate reactions are not necessarily an indication of literary
	value -- many of the popular writers of years gone by, who were
	believed to be "the greatest writers of their time," are not
	read at all today. Conversely, many writers in the canon now
	were not known/respected/read in their time.

	Minorities and women will come into the canon as 1) more minorities
	and women write, and 2) as people study them. It may seem futile
	to some to study a writer who is now not considered canon, or
	regarded as "lesser."  But it is this repeated study and reading
	of writers that gets them into the canon (another thread mentioned
	T.S. Eliot's revival of the metaphysical poets like Donne and
	Marvell -- an example of this)
	
	Writers don't just enter the canon magically, and are not entered
	into it by some "board of admissions."  They become canon because
	people who read and study them believe they have something to
	say, and because their words speak to others beyond their time.

	It will happen.

	Darin Powell
	Syracuse University
	Home of the Fightin' Thought Police
From: maureenw@sco.COM (Maureen Wilkes)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: The Literary Canon
Date: 14 Aug 92 18:16:48 GMT
Organization: SCO Canada, Inc.

In article <1992Aug12.171211.15344@athena.cs.uga.edu> heath@athena.cs.uga.edu (Terrance Heath) writes:
>	Explaining why Blacks were excluded, _Great_Books_ Editor
>Phillip Goetz said during a recent intervie on CNN that "Blacks
>generally only write one to two item (idea) books but we don't
>consider those to be great in the sense that the others are."
>	_Great_Books_ Editor-in-Chief Mortimer Adler added : "I think
>probably in the next century there will be some Black that writes a
>great book, but there hasn't been so far."
>including major white universities."


Well now, I'm sure glad Goetz and Adler cleared this up for me.
For a moment there, I thought Ralph Ellison, Zora Neal Hurston, and
James Baldwin (to name but a few) had written books that included
more than one or two ideas.  Some of their works are even considered 
(gasp) great!  But now I've been edified, I can toss out INVISIBLE
MAN to make room for GREAT BOOKS.  What a relief.
From: anlyyao@igc.apc.org (An-Ly Yao)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Bertrand Russell and the Mad Hatter
Date: 20 Aug 92 14:19:00 GMT
Nf-ID: #R:1992Aug19.191352.9454@sophia.smi:742181821:cdp:1446700009:000:117
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!anlyyao    Aug 20 07:19:00 1992


Perhaps it's because those two hatters are mad for the same reason: mercury
poisoning.

Goetz Kluge
Seoul 1992/08/20
From: kjetilgr@ifi.uio.no (Kjetil Granlien)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Julie A. Miller
Date: 13 Aug 92 10:32:43 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Informatics, University of Oslo, Norway
Originator: kjetilgr@holmenkollen.ifi.uio.no


 If she reads this, please take contact.. 

Kjetil Granlien
---
 "Overhead the albatross hangs motionless upon the air
  And deep beneath the rolling waves
  In labyrinth of coral caves
  The echoes of a distant time comes willowing across the sand.."
						PinkFloyd, Echoes
---
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: seaverw@columbia.dsu.edu (W. A. Seaver)
Subject: Re: Thomas Harris question
Organization: Dakota State University
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 16:55:07 GMT

In article <a2824ag.714230735@sunmanager> a2824ag@sunmanager.LRZ-Muenchen.DE (Riaan de Jager) writes:

>I've read Silence of the Lambs, and I've almost finished Red Dragon.
>Anybody out there know his other books? Are there any others? Hope so!

The only other Harris book I know of is "Black Sunday," which I guess makes 
him 3 for 3 for having his books also translated into movies. Not bad!

--W.A. Seaver
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: msmorris@watsci.waterloo.edu (Mike Morris)
Subject: Re: Some Canonical Lists
Organization: University of Waterloo, Waterloo, Ontario
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 16:53:53 GMT

                              Sunday, the 16th of August, 1992

A couple of responses to Roger Squires. He writes:
  	                                                  I'm proud
  	to say that I score higher than he on almost all the lists
  	(sorry, couldn't resist :^) ), but though my have read list is
  	also heavily biased towards ancient writers, I have read nothing
  	in the original language, as Mr. Morris has. (*sigh*.  Though
  	I hope to learn Latin, at least)

I think probably a lot of people that post here score higher than I do
on these lists. I also have not read any of these books in the original,
so you can feel better there as well. I was just complaining about the
fact that I have studied 4 languages to the point of starting to read in
them, and still don't feel like I can use any one of them.
  
  	The only list I have quarrels with is the List #9:

Umm, I might quarrel with any of them. For instance, why
Dostoevsky and Tolstoy and not Dickens or Austen in the
Great Books set. I suspect the bias towards ``influential
ideas'' explains this.

I also agree with those who emailed me saying that Flann O'Brien's
_The Third Policeman_ is better than the _At Swim-Two-Birds_ that
Burgess prefers.
  	
  
I said it would be neat to see such books as _100 of the Best
African-American Books_... and Roger responded:
  
  	I second this!  Could Mr. Heath, et al, work on such a
  	list and post it to the net?  Please!

A list now would be interesting to me. But, I think expertise
counts, and I'd be much more interested in Terrance's distillation
once he has read, say, 1000 such works over many years, studied a few
in detail, and *then* tells us in a page per work why he's chosen
the particular 100 he has.
  
                   Mike Morris
            (msmorris@watsci.uwaterloo.ca)

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,talk.philosophy.misc,sci.classics
From: dstein@rhea.math.ucla.edu (David Stein)
Subject: Re: I need a word
Reply-To: dstein@rhea.math.ucla.edu (David Stein)
Organization: UCLA, Mathematics Department
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 09:01:48 GMT

In article <5f4mxxp.tmaddox@netcom.com>, tmaddox@netcom.com (Tom Maddox)
writes:
 
|> 	As Zeleny's prose makes clear, his cricitizing my writing style
|> is like Dan Quayle's criticizing my spelling.

        Why criticize so harshly someone who's clearly in the early
        stages of learning English?

        Be nice.  Remember the puppy example.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm not a native speaker of English, so I'm not sure what I wrote.
Dan Quayle will be ignored unless he talks to me in perfect Czech.
================================ - David (the metammathician) - ===
From: S.L.Fagg@bnr.co.uk
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: 1066 &c (was: History for Valley gals)
Date: 20 Aug 92 17:41:48 GMT

In article <1992Aug15.150440.89767@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au>, phs172m@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au (Stephen Harker) writes:
> In article <1992Aug14.162310.9797@nas.nasa.gov>, wismith@amelia.nas.nasa.gov (William R. Smith) writes:
> > John McCarthy writes:
> > 
> >> [Stuff on "Invasion of America by Dead White European Males" deleted]
> >>
> > Many, many moons ago "Mad Magazine" (does this count as a book reference?)
> > noticed the same problem.  Their solution was similar.  They broke everything
> > into "The Good" and "The Bad", and presented a quick history of the 20th
> > Century.  Hitler was Bad.  The one I remember was Eisenhower.

... stuff (about Eisenhower) deleted ...

> 	Reminds me of _my_ favourite "history" book - "1066 and all that"
> which was written in the 1930's by two British history teachers.  

To wit:

	Walter Carruthers Sellar (Aegrot. Oxon.)
                              and
	Robert Julian Yeatman (Failed M.A., etc. Oxon.)

> It has
> history ending in 1918 when Britain is "no longer top dog" and describes a
> lot of history and historical people as "good things" or "bad things".

As it says on the title page:

	103 Good Things
	  5 Bad Kings
	  2 Genuine Dates

The other date was 55 BC. They claim in their "Compulsory Preface (this
means you)" that:

	"2 out of the 4 Dates originally included were eliminated at
	the last moment, a research done at the Eton and Harrow match
	having revealed that they are _not_memorable_."

... stuff (about Arthur & Alfred & an Old-saxon Fragment) deleted ...

One of my favourite parts was when it is revealed that:

	"Henry IV Part I ... finding that he was not very memorable,
	very patriotically abdicated in favour of Henry IV, Part II."

The test papers presented at several points in the book are wonderful
send ups of school exams. All in all a classic book. Having been
remeinded of it by Stephen Harker's posting I dug out the book and
re-read it yesterday evening. Great fun. Thank you Stephen!

-- 
Regards

Steve Fagg      ( S.L.Fagg@bnr.co.uk +44-279-402437 )
BNR Europe Ltd., London Road, Harlow, Essex, CM17 9NA, UK

*** "Better drowned than duffers. If not duffers, won't drown". ***
Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:14493 rec.humor:25874 alt.folklore.urban:21260 rec.arts.sf.misc:2560
From: ara@wam.umd.edu (Ford Prefect)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,rec.humor,alt.folklore.urban,rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: Agnostics and Athiests
Date: 12 Aug 92 21:46:57 GMT
Article-I.D.: wam.1992Aug12.214657.11774
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park

In article <1992Aug12.183918.24734@orlith.bates.edu> nmiseroc@orlith.bates.edu (Nathan Miserocchi) writes:
>
>OK I'VE F**CKING HAD IT!!!!!!!  flame gun set to                                long range dip shit posting on this damn topic

********* Some good stuff deleted to save bandwidth ********
>nmiseroc@orlith.bates.edu                  
>
>                               Bates College
>                               Lewiston, ME


Thats right!
I have had it too.  If I wanted to read Theological drivel I would 
subscribe to alt.God.is.an.old.fart.  OR BETTER YET, I WOULD INVITE
THE JEHOVAS WITLESSES TO MY HOUSE, YEAH!!! THATS IT!!!!
HEY YOU JEHOVAS DICKLESSES, WHAT DID YOU WITNESS JEHOVA DOING ANYWAY.
SHIT THIS PISSES ME OFF.  ALL THIS DUNG ABOUT GODS IS CROWDING OUT THE
CASCADES AND EVEN SOME FUNNY JOKES!!!!!

LISTEN, IF GOD EXISTED DO YOU FOR ONE MINUTE THINK HE WOULD EVEN ADMIT TO
CREATING PINHEADS LIKE YOU!!! THINK ABOUT IT!!!
HELL, I WOULD DIE OF SHAME IF I CREATED SOME OF THE PEOPLE ON THIS NET!!!
HOW DO YOU THINK A GOD WOULD FEEL WITH MILLIONS OF JEHOVAS WITNESSES
BORN AGAINS, MORAL MAJORITES, ETC ETC ... HANGING AROUND WITH HIM.


SIMON WHERE ARE YOU!!!!

AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHH !!!!!!!!!
TAKE THIS STUFF TO SOME APPROPRIATE GROUP AND LET US LOYAL REC.HUMORITES
WASTE BANDWIDTH THE WAY WE ARE SUPPOSED TO.

OR ELSE!!!

YEAH THATS RIGHT, IM TALKING TO YOU TAPIOCA FOR BRAINS!!!

IF THIS DOESN'T STOP, IM GOING TO START THE WORST CASCADE EVER.

SIMON WHERE THE HELL ARE YOU!!! DO SOMETHING WILL YA !!!!

-take a look at deeesh  (.)
From: "john lovett" <john.lovett@channel1.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: request: "kill your
Date: 22 Aug 92 18:19:45 EST
Reply-To: "john lovett" <john.lovett@channel1.com>
Distribution: rec
Organization: Channel 1 Communications

RS>From: rsquires@cyclops.eece.unm.edu (Roger Squires)

RS>In article <sph0301.49.714169289@utsph.sph.uth.tmc.edu> sph0301@utsph.sph.uth
RS>c.edu (Kate Wilson) writes:
RS>>>>> Ah, but I went through school with April N. (no middle name, just an
RS>>>>> initial) Paris.

RS>        I once worked with April Sauer (get it?  April Shower.  Ha!)

A female politician in New Hampshire is named Dudley Dudley.

---
  SLMR 2.1a  
--
Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA