From: George Paap <george_paap@email.sps.mot.com>
Subject: Re: Documented Evidence
X-Xxdate: Fri, 1 Jan 93 13:28:45 GMT
Organization: Motorola RISC
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d16
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 19:31:45 GMT

I'll try to be somewhat lucid here (Work was on the way
home from the party I crashed at last night, oh yea, Happy
New Year)


In article <1i1pjrINNnc2@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> Robert Mathiesen,
SL500000@brownvm.brown.edu writes:
> a fake of considerable sophistication by a pretty skillful forger.  We
will
> now have to start examining our documentation for traditional Witchcraft
> with all the skills of a forensic document examiner, since the forgers
among
> us have begun to ply their trade in our area of interest.
Well said.

In article <1993Jan1.094502.17764@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com> bill nelson,
billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com writes:
> Nor have I ever stated that such should be necessary. I have
> stated, many times, that it doesn't matter where your beliefs
> come from, or how recent they originated.

I realize that (and should have stated it) I wanted to make
a general statement regarding my opinions on evidence.

In article <1993Jan1.094502.17764@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com> bill nelson,
billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com writes:
> : In fact, I'm glad that we don't have a "bible" which locks in
> : words "the right way to do things" or the "proper" beliefs.  I
> 
> Ah, but some do. Ever heard of a BOS? Some people follow them 
> very precisely - no variation allowed.
Actually no, what is it and what do they believe?

In article <1993Jan1.094502.17764@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com> bill nelson,
billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com writes:
> I just believe that a person should be able to document their
> claims. If they state that they have a family "tradition" that
> goes back generations, then they should be able to prove it.

What if it is an oral tradition?  Is not that also valid?
(since it was the predominent means of history for most
people, ie ROOTS was an oral history, therefore
invalid [I'm making a general arguement here, not with
Bill's opinions])

As far as evidence and documents, all it takes is one
family member to decide "this is EVIL" and throw it 
all in the trash.  What you really want (speaking
directly to Bill) is an *unbroken* family tradition
which is documented reaching back to the 18th or 19th
century.  It's 1992 and we [most of us on the net] still
live in a highly Judeo-Christian society which regards our
thoughts as EVIL (which, after my conversion, is translated
THREAT), how likely is this really?

I can only trace my last name back to 1852 (and it's not exactly common),
much less a family tradition.  Yea there's
documented evidence if your family happened to be land owners, government
officials, or clergy, but what if your
history is from poor, illiterate peasants who practice an
oral tradition of the craft?  INVALID, I say NOT! [yes
Bill, I realize you did not make your point this strongly,
I'm back in general rebutal mode]

At the Pagan Student Alliance (at University of Texas) I met
two people who are practicing a family tradition (different 
traditions, one of whom is in the family).  In my opinion,
family traditions are significantly more SECRET that eccletic
"witchcraft". Personally, I don't have the time to become
initiated in another tradition just to find out the details of their 
beliefs (wish I did, I'm sure it would be interesting). Now you can say,
they won't really tell you, 
therefore it is BS, I say its 1992 and it survived because
secrecy is essential.

I think there are hundreds (or
thousands) of family traditions out there, its our loss they
don't have access to the net (i.e., "I asked 400 computer
literate pagans who understand email and have access to a computer with
access to the net [which I didn't even have a month ago] and NO ONE (ok,
only Robert), could give me a shred of evidence, therefore I don't
believe it". In fact I bet, being the holidays, very few people will even
read this thread.

My head is pounding, so I think its time I leave.
The bottom line is if you (Bill) want evidence, you are
probably going to have to go out and research it yourself.
You could probably even write a pretty authoritarian text
(I wish I had the time, this lack of time really sucks), get
it published, and make a bit of money.  How may scholars are
out there looking at history from a pagan perspective?  My hope
is that it is growing, and that one day we can read nice, dry,
inoffensive academic articles on the historical archeological basis of
our beliefs, but it will be while.  This is a movement in its infancy for
most people (myself included).

Happy New Year again,

George

I am my opinions.
(which almost certainly are not those of my employer)