HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rayes@Goat.mcs.kent.edu (Sandra Rayes)
Subject: Re: Nobel prize for Rabin
Organization: Kent State University
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 05:09:21 GMT

In article <1483500316@igc.apc.org> cpr@igc.apc.org (Center for Policy Research) writes:
>
>I do not know who is proposing Mr. Rabin for Nobel Prize.
>
>Those who are contemplating such a proposal, are kindly requested
>to acquaint themselves with damning evidence about war crimes
>committed under direct orders of Mr. Yitzhak Rabin. These war 
>crimes were committed in 1948, 1967, 1987 and later. A more
>detailed, though summary, paper on these war crimes, has been posted
>in this conference a few weeks ago and can be obtained from
>the author of these lines.
>
>Elias Davidsson
>Center for Policy Research
>Iceland
>
>email:   elias@ismennt.is

Damning the evidence may well be, but that didn't stop the Nobel 
commission from awarding a prize to BOTH Sadat and Begin (if ya'll
know what I mean).  Just goes to show, yesterday's terrorists are
today's statesmen.

Sandra.
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Catholic Racism
Date: 5 Jan 1993 13:18:10 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc12.ins.cwru.edu


Sorry, Wayne.
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: All Arabs are guilty
Date: 8 Jan 1993 04:19:54 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
Distribution: world
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.23.70

In article 164@vms.huji.ac.il, backon@vms.huji.ac.il () writes:
>In article <1984@spam.ua.oz>, jaskew@spam.ua.oz (Joseph Askew) writes:
>> In article <1992Dec27.233559.25590@nysernet.org> astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:
>>>ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira) writes:

>>>There is enough land there for everyone.  The early Zionists
>>>anticipated living together in peace with the few Arabs who were
>>>already there;

>> Which early Zionists might these be? Herzl never recognised or perhaps
>> even knew about the Arabs in Palestine so he's out. The only people I
>> know who addressed the issue referred to displacing the Arabs through
>> various forms of purchase. No peaceful coexistence there. Ben Gurion
>> spelt it out by saying that a 40% Arab minority was unacceptable and
>> would threaten the very basis of the Jewish State. In short I think
>> you are wrong, if you know of an early Zionist who really expected
>> peaceful coexistence then I would like to know his/her name!

>How about Jabotinsky who hoped that "BEN NATZRAT, BEN ARAV Ve-AMI"
>(I think this is the correct quotation) could live together in peace
>in Israel. BEN NATZRAT (Christians), BEN ARAV (Arabs) VE-AMI ("my people"=
>Jews).

Ah, Jabotinsky the Humanist.  In the late 1930's, when the Irgun, of 
which he was the commander in all but name, was setting off bombs in Arab 
marketplaces, he ordered that a warning be issued (in Arabic, even!) that
Arabs not send their women to the marketplace.  Such deep respect for 
human life!

>Josh

Brendan.
From: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: mideast peace
Date: 5 Jan 93 16:15:17 EST
Reply-To: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Distribution: talk
Organization: Channel 1 Communications

<knotes>

<o>#clip
<doctype>book
<author>Leibowitz, Yeshayahu
<title>Judaism, Human Values, and the Jewish State
<editor>Goldman, Eliezer
<city>Cambridge, MA
<publisher>Harvard University Press
<year>1992

<des>

     The world community may have to impose a peace settlement in
     the Israeli/Arab conflict in order to keep Israel from
     destroying itself. (Leibowitz Judaism, Human Values, and the
     Jewish State 1992)

<excerpt>

     Even if the ruling establishment in Israel fails to
     appreciate the necessity of disengaging from the occupied
     territories, and even without a mass movement to force the
     government into taking such steps, it is plausible to assume
     that the country will eventually be repartitioned, however
     difficult it is to imagine that this will be done with the
     willing consent of Israel and the PLO (whose position in the
     matter remains vague). It is most probably that both we and
     the Palestinians will be coerced into such an arrangement by
     the world powers; by the United States, perhaps in
     conjunction with the Soviet Union and the United Nations. If
     we do not withdraw from the territories of our own free
     will, we may be compelled to relinquish them and thus be
     saved from corruption by fascism and from all-out war. It
     may well be the irony of history that the Gentiles will save
     the state of Israel from the Jews who are bent on its
     destruction.

<excerpt pages>248

</o>
---
  OLX 3.01 31-2557  Intergalactic Hypercomputing Network
--
Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA

Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:25060 soc.culture.greek:12129 soc.rights.human:4750
From: Rab C. Nesbitt
Subject: Re: "George William Herbert" goes to Washington D.C.
Organization: The Two Ways, Govan.
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 15:01:30 GMT
Reply-To: nesbitt@govan.edu
X-Posted-From: mac_f173_78.dcs.gla.ac.uk
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <9301072004@zuma.UUCP> sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic) alias Ahmet
Cosar writes:

>>>As usual, it is a blatant lie.
>
>>Gosh! For once Argic gets something right!! Ahmet Cosar is the system 
>>administrator of anatolia.mn.org, Mutlu is his pal. This deadly duo together
>>with a couple of others post under the pen name 'Serdar Argic'
>
>Mega-liar in action. 

Which bit's wrong 'Mutlu'? Cosar's postmaster@anatolia? Mutlu's his friend?


>>Actually Mutlu had quite an amusing turn of phrase, something seriously
lacking
>>in the Serdar Argic postings. 
>
>I miss him, too.

Serious case of schizophrenia here folks! You're missing yourself Mutlu??!!


Rab
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24878 talk.politics.soviet:10262 soc.culture.greek:12080 soc.history:10587 soc.culture.turkish:13905
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.history,soc.culture.turkish
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Well, it will be a long decade for the ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorists/Nazis.
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 93 20:32:04 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <1993Jan6.134410.19494@samba.oit.unc.edu> ses@sunSITE.unc.edu (Simon Spero) writes:

>Think of something innovative...
> maybe a 40hr course on Turko-Greek relations taught by Mutulu?

A man of such curiosity and imagination could provide an answer
to his own question. But to increase our level of intimacy, I
will tell you about one of mine. The Encyclopedia Americana gives, 
in extenso, the following explanations about the origins and the 
original fatherland of the Armenians:

"It was probably toward the end of the 7th century B.C. that a new
 people, known in history under the name armenians and speaking 
 an Indo-European language, came from the west (according to some
 ancient Greek historians and geographers, they came from the
 Balkan peninsula together with the Phrygians) and occupied the
 land of Urartu."[1]

[1] The Encyclopedia Americana, 1956 Edition, Chapter Armenians, p. 267.

Sarkis Atamian explains in his book called 'The Armenian Community,
New York 1955, Philosophical Library' that, according to historians,
original fatherland of the Armenians was in Thessaly, Greece.

Armenian invaders burned and sacked the fatherland of Urartus,
massacred and exterminated its population and presented to the
world all those left from the Urartus, as the Armenian civilization.

All reliable historians describe how Armenians ruthlessly exterminated 
2.5 million Muslim women, children and elderly people of Eastern 
Anatolia and how they collaborated with the enemies of the Ottoman 
Empire between 1914-1920.

It is unfortunately a truth that Armenians are known as collaborators
of the Nazis during World War II and that, even today, criminal
members of the ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism Triangle preach and instigate
racism, hatred, violence and terrorism among peoples. Whether it stemmed 
from German influence or not, the Tzeghagrons were deeply anti-semitic as 
well. In the May 10, 1936 edition of 'Hairenik Weekly' the vice-mayor
of Bucharest, Rumania is quoted as saying:

"The Armenians helped us not to become the slaves of the Jewish
 elements in our country."

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.'    (Sahak Melkonian)
Organization: Bar-Ilan University Computing Center, Israel
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 15:53:42 IST
From: Shaul Wallach <F66204@BARILVM.BITNET>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: News from the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip.
 <1993Jan6.184351.11245@beaver.cs.washington.edu> <29951@castle.ed.ac.uk>
 <1993Jan7.165622.12693@ennews.eas.asu.edu>

In article <1993Jan7.165622.12693@ennews.eas.asu.edu>,
makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:
>
>In article <29951@castle.ed.ac.uk> jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson)
>writes:
>
># In article <1993Jan6.184351.11245@beaver.cs.washington.edu>
>aberman@cs.washington.edu (Andrew Berman) writes:
>
>   ...
># ~I also heard no great outcry when a Montana teenager was sent to 30 years
># ~in prison for throwing stones at passing cars.   But I digress..
>
># I think you'd have heard an outcry if the teenager had simply been gunned   n
>dow
># in the street. Can you say "Kent State"?
>
>        Do you have ANY idea about what happened at kent State?

     Kent State  -  yes  -  I was a freshman back then in May 1970
when the students rioted after Nixon sent the GI's into Cambodia. I
didn't remember the details but the World Almanac says enough. At
Kent State the students burned down the ROTC building and then the
National Guard was sent in. The next day the students attacked the
soldiers with stones and, according to some reports, sniper fire
from a rooftop. The soldiers fired into the crowd and killed 4
students. The incident sparked both local and federal inquiries
(perhaps you know what the conclusions were - I don't). Some of the
students were charged with conspiracy to riot, of whom one was
convicted and two pleaded guilty. There was an outcry immediately
after the incident, and about 100,000 students took part in a
protest demonstration in Washington the following weekend. But as
best as I remember, public opinion was not wholly sympathetic
towards the students, nor was it wholly sympathetic toward them
in Grant Park during the 1968 Democratic National Convention.

    Let's not forget that back then America was still a "law and order"
country that had just gone through the trauma of the black rioting of the
1960's. Good old Mayor Daley of Chicago was famous (perhaps notorious)
then for his orders to "shoot to kill" the rioters.

     Kent State was not the only violent incident in the movement
against the Vietnam War. Two students were killed later in a similar
incident at Jackson State (?). I also remember a research worker being
killed in a student bombing of a laboratory suspected of participation
in research connected with the military.

Shalom,

Shaul Wallach
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:25253 soc.culture.turkish:14184
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.turkish
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: LEST WE FORGET: A Holocaust Bibliography
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 20:53:50 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <1993Jan12.091256.12119@midway.uchicago.edu> mfm0@ellis.uchicago.edu (martin frederic melhus) writes:

>>How can I explain to you about the importance of the scientific experiment
>going on in your backyard?

>Hold on here?  Am I to understand that Armenia is in Canada's back yard?

Is it really your intent to make such a statement?

>I know that there have been a lot of changes in European geography lately, 
>but I just don't know about this one.

When you have finished "understanding" I'd suggest you answer the points
"Zarmooni" has raised below. In 1936, for example, O. Zarmooni of the 
'Tzeghagrons' was quoted in the 'Hairenik Weekly:' 

"The race is force: it is treasure. If we follow history we shall 
 see that races, due to their innate force, have created the nations
 and these have been secure only insofar as they have reverted to
 the race after becoming a nation. Today Germany and Italy are
 strong because as nations they live and breath in terms of race.
 On the other hand, Russia is comparatively weak because she is
 bereft of social sanctities."[1]

[1] 'Hairenik Weekly,' Friday, April 10, 1936, 'The Race is our
   Refuge' by O. Zarmooni.


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.'    (Sahak Melkonian)
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Cat Steven's visit to Israel (& concert!)
Date: 4 Jan 1993 14:51:50 GMT
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: merlin.think.com

In article <1993Jan4.033754.4597@newshub.ccs.yorku.ca> you write:

>You cannot enter any Arab country with an Israeli entry stamp on your
>passport.  Until you can prove, with some legitimate sources, your
>above statement, we can understand this to be a pure propoganda piece
>that contains no credibility.

Are you sure that the above holds true for Jordan?  I seem to remember
friends leaving for Amman by way of the bridge...

-- 
Shai Guday		| Knowing martial arts allows one to remain calm when
OS Software Engineer	| confronted by idiots, secure in the knowledge that
Thinking Machines Corp. | you could dismember them easily, while you calmly
Cambridge, MA		| proceed to dismember them easily.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: Leaving
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 03:29:21 GMT

If anyone can, please pass my regards and congratulations to John
Elgahni for his marriage. Although we had some bitter confrontations,
I like the guy.

-Danny Keren.
From: revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Repentance
Date: 13 Jan 93 01:49:21 GMT

<1993Jan12.151420.6994@midway.uchicago.edu> rivk@midway.uchicago.edu writes:

>Re: the "justice" of the Rushdie murder contract, btw -- honest question:
>Does Islam allow for repentance?


	From the LA Times, 12/27/92, p.A20:

	Just how far the [Saudi] government was prepared to go to
	appease the new Islamic fervor became dramatically clear on
	Sept. 3, when a 22-year-old man who had publicly questioned
	God and the prophet Mohammed at the age of 17 was beheaded
	in a public square in the eastern city of Qatif.
	In its official report on the case, the government noted
	that the young man, Sadeq Abdelkarim Malallah, had repented
	when religious leaders met with him in prison, but 
	emphasized that his statements against religion constituted
	"a crime that calls for death, even in the presence of
	repentance, as a way of avenging what is due to God's 
	prophet".
-- 
Ron Evans (revans@math.ucsd.edu)
From: jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: What is this doing on page 15
Date: 7 Jan 93 09:55:26 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <1993Jan5.135858@frej.teknikum.uu.se> flax@mizar.docs.uu.se writes:
~In article <29882@castle.ed.ac.uk>, jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson) writes:
~|> In article <1i8tuoINNcj8@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll) writes:
~
~|> ~In a previous article, zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd M. Ben-Halim) says:
~|> ~errs, and so far I'm not sold that Israel is right on this call.  I try to be
~|> ~objective.  Apparently you do not.  The Hamas leaders were guilty of many 
~|> ~violent acts, and it was within Israel's right to deport them.
~|> ~ 
~
~|> You claim to be objective and in the next breath you demonstrate that you
~|> are nothing of the sort - has it not penetrated your skull that the deportees
~|> have been found guilty of no crime whatsoever? Your presumption of guilt
~|> exposes your prejudices.
~
~Please fill me in on the following details: Were the deportees not set before
~a military court, that confirmed the deportation? I got the impression that the
~supreme court is upset that they were sentenced as a group, not that they
~were deported? The only sources I have is TV, swedish papers and the Jerusalem
~Post. If you have access to any other (swedish/english only, please) I'll be
~most interested to hear.

The court ruled that they could be deported immediately, and the question of
their guilt considered later. It later ruled that they were no longer the
conern of Israel, since they were on Lebanese territory. Maybe you should
stick to Dagens Nyheter and stop looking at the pictures in Aftonbladet ;-)






-- 
===Jeremy Henderson===jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk=          

This message cost the net hundreds if not thousands of dollars.
Bloody good value if you ask me.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: michaelp@ifi.uio.no (Michael Schalom Preminger)
Subject: Wayne McGuire, Israel and the U.S
Organization: Dept. of Informatics, University of Oslo, Norway
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 17:38:01 GMT
Originator: michaelp@conway.ifi.uio.no



To Wayne McGuire:

I have been following your postings to the group for quite a while.
I think they are quite interesting, because I guess they represent
a model of thinking that quite many american might have of the U.S
and the rest of the world. 

Forgive me if I sound like some antropologist. I just dont
know you personally - that's why I "generalize" you a litle bit.
The fact that israel has profiled itself as a western nation makes
your postings more interesting in their context.


Ill start by pointing out that your claim about The potentially
negative consequences to israel due to the dependence upon american
support are correct, and have always caused concern in israel.
What is wrong in this context is the perception of the U.S as some
distant father in law that sends money against his will. (And under
constant press from the mother in law...)

Financial support and economic intervention has since WW2 been a part
of american foreign policy.  And it is not always  "democratic values" or
"common interests" which have been the motive.  Think of central
america. Ill return to this issue a bit later.

Israel has been a vital asset for the U.S in the mideast, in the
vicinity of the oil fields.  You said that "desert storm" has proved
that saudi is a more important asset than israel. This must be wrong.
Just imagen what had happened if Saddam, instaed of attaching Kuwait,
attacked Saudi Arabia before "Desert Shield" was there. I think Israel
would than have proven its real value for the U.S. 
Thats is of course
hypothetical, and thanks god it didnt happen. What HAS happened was
terrible enough.

And BTW. I dont think the Saudi sheiks and U.S share any common values beside
"In God We Trust." And you know what I mean. 
 
Saudi, for the U.S is a REGIME which does not report to its inhabitants.


Israel is ruled by a government which must think of its own electors
before thinking about foreign affairs. There lies the american 
"problem" with israel, but there lies also the benefit. 

For example:
Israel has not based its security upon U.S. troops "coming to visit" 
defending the country and its regime, like
under "desert storm". I think "desert storm" costed the U.S more than 
the annual support to israel (though I dont have the figures), and
could have easily resulted in heavy american loss of lives. The support
to israel has so far not have such consequences.

Michael
From: bobc@bandit.swdc.stratus.com (Bob Christ)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: No, This is the Quote of the year
Date: 7 Jan 93 23:12:16 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc., San Jose, CA

In article <Jan.7.01.11.28.1993.19649@bach.rutgers.edu> marwang@bach.rutgers.edu (Marwan Gharaybeh) writes:
>adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
>

         [ Some stuff deleted ]

>First he says ...
>
>>Insisting that you don't speak English very well.
>
>And then ... Boom ...
>
>>the words anti-Semite and semite are not related.
>
>--Marwan


Marwan,

He's quite correct.  Open your dictionary... about the middle of the `a'
section.  Now find "anti-", and look down the list and you'll find
"anti-Semite".

No, don't try and say "anti-Semite" means hate toward Semites.  It's a
special word.

Bob
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24974 soc.culture.greek:12093 soc.history:10605
From: jle@locus.com (John Elghani)
Subject: ARABS/JEWS JOKE
Organization: LC
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 93 00:08:41 GMT

    Two Jews are sitting in the window and middle seats on a plane.
The Jews ask the Arab sitting in the aisle seat to get them a glass of
orange juice so they won't have to crawl over him.  While he is up getting
the drinks, they spit in his shoes.  Later, he returns and gives them the
juice, they drink it.

When they are about to land the Arab guy puts on his shoes and 
realizes what has happened.  He complains to the Jews, 
"When will it all end between us?  The hatred... the violence... the
killing... the Intifada... bombing the camps... the spitting in shoes...
the PEEING (urinating) in orange juice..."

Enjoy, and no offense.

jle
From: spinoza@next06wor.wam.umd.edu (Yon Bonnie Laird of Cairn Robbing)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Jeremy and kindler, gentler democracy (was drivel about Deportations)
Date: 6 Jan 93 15:10:53 GMT

In article <29920@castle.ed.ac.uk> jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy  
Henderson) writes:
> In article <1993Jan6.014248.10027@newshub.ccs.yorku.ca>  
wc4209@writer.yorku.ca (Irene Berkovich) writes:
> ~In article <C0EAKH.sI@techbook.com> gummitch@techbook.com (Jeff Frane)  
writes:
> 
> ~      Syria's Hafez Assad ordered the massacre of approximately 10,000
> ~to 20,000 fellow Arabs in the city of Hama in around 1980.  I believe
> ~this town was an active Moslem Brotherhood area.  They would be quite
> ~similar in philosophy to the Hamas members that Israel recently
> ~expelled (note expelled, not butchered like in Syria).
> 
> I used to be under the impression that Israel aspires to be a civilised
> democracy in the "western" sense. Now it is clear that as long as the 
> Israeli regime is less brutal than that in say, Syria, or Iraq, or other
> cradles of gentleness, that's ok. Why not try setting your sights just a
> tiny bit higher?

Oh, but according to you,Jerry,  they have. If what you say is true , then  
the only thing the Israelis are guilty of is taking a page from the  
domestic policy manual of the UK for Northern Ireland. Except that the  
Israeli police are not handing out hit lists of Palestinians to Israeli  
wackos and criminals (well, personally, I believe the RUC. Those nasty  
Protestant gunmen just snuck into RUC headquarters after hours and stole  
the list. Yeah, that's the ticket....), and they don't usually fabricate  
evidence as well (the chain of corruption led all the way to the Crown  
Prosecutor, if I remember correctly). 
Oh, then there's that other little difference : the Palestinians seem to  
want to dismantle Israel, whilst the various factions in Ireland merely  
want the British to go back to their own country, but I suppose that's a  
digression as well..................


cheers.

jeff
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast