HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mckinzie@schaefer.math.wisc.edu (Mark McKinzie)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Univ. of Wisconsin Dept. of Mathematics
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 01:17:57 GMT

dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:
>cathyf@is.rice.edu (Catherine Anne Foulston) writes:
      [snip]
>>what you do.  Even if all rec.music.synth readers voted, which would
>>probably never happen, that would not be the will of the entire
>>readership.
>Not of USENET, but at least of the people affected by the change.
       [snip]
>A lot of people dropped away from r.m.s when they heard about the name 
>change...they aren't big flamers or posters like me (and I'm not so big)...
>but they really didn't like the fact that some non-participants got to 
>decide where they continued their discussion so they cut themselves off
>from it all. Is that what the net wants to happen?

	If they're not big posters like you, how do we know they've dropped
	away in the past few days?

Dave, what you seem to be ignoring here is the fact that the name of a
newsgroup effects more people then just the current readership of that
newsgroup, and thus "non-participants" do have a say in how a newsgroup
is named.  Your own silly example, of placing talk.bizarre as a subgp
of some comp.eniac heirarchy, is apt here.  Ought the t.b cabal have
exclusive rights to choose whatever name they wish in the tree, irregardless 
of placing the newsgroup in a sensible place?  If there is to be a
namespace set aside for musicians to discuss music creation issues, ought
not all such newsgroups be located in such a place? And need I be an
active reader of r.m.s to qualify to vote on such a question?


-- 
Mark McKinzie          |    Listen, if they're going to buy lunch boxes,
mckinzie@math.wisc.edu | they might as well buy David Cassidy lunch boxes.
UW Dept. of Mathematics|
Madison, WI 53706      |                  -David Cassidy-
From: hartman@ulogic.UUCP (Richard M. Hartman)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.frp.campaign
Date: 5 Nov 92 18:40:52 GMT
Followup-To: news.groups,rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.misc
Organization: negligable

In article <Bx5J14.Bo5@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> cbnorman@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu writes:
>Well, as I stated, we have eight.  Since the Net has such a wide range, I'm 
>sure at least eight equal-quality campaigns could be found.

And how do you coherently run eight simultaneous campaigns in one
newsgroup?  Or do you want a new subgroup for each campaign...?


	-Richard Hartman
	hartman@ulogic.COM

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"If we shadows have offended, Think but this and all is mended:
 That you have but slumbered here, While these visions did appear.
 And this weak and idle theme, no more yielding but a dream."
From: plutchak@pilsner.geo.brown.edu (Joel Plutchak)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: More fuel for the music reorg debate
Date: 12 Nov 1992 14:10:52 GMT
Organization: Brown University Planetary Geology
NNTP-Posting-Host: pilsner.geo.brown.edu

In article <7825@lib.tmc.edu> jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
>In article <9211110830.AA12739@elxr.jpl.Nasa.Gov> dave@elxr.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Dave Hayes) writes:
>Simple. Convince us that these are extraordinary circumstances. You'll have to
>do better than just complaining about the Subject: line, though, as that
>argument is too thin to support that contention...

   My favorite is still the original complaint-- that since the
rename passed by "only" one hundred and one votes, it couldn't
possibly be valid.
   The new group exists at my site, so I'll bow out of this
interesting discussion.
--
Joel Plutchak, Research Programmer/Analyst
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: ckd@eff.org (Christopher Davis)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation Tech Central
	<1992Nov10.004253.5370@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> <7803@lib.tmc.edu>
	<1992Nov12.055816.4462@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 18:04:43 GMT

Dave> == Dave Hayes <dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> 

 Dave> Expressed wishes of a small, vocal minority of the net.

The most prototypical "small, vocal minority" I see here is you, gvh,
and... um... well, the two of you.

How "vocal" is voting?  (Hint: I didn't, but I'm being vocal.)

 Dave> And no I do not like the result (just as much as you like it).
 Dave> What difference does that make?

If you liked the result, would you be screaming so loud?  (Despite the
old posting that had you suggesting the synth group move into the r.m.m
hierarchy...)
--
Christopher K. Davis      | ``Usenet seems to run much like the Kif (or,
<ckd@eff.org>   EFF #14   |   for the TV generation, Klingon) high command.
System Administrator, EFF |   Whoever takes action and can be heard wins.''
+1 617 864 0665  [CKD1]   |   --Peter da Silva <peter@ferranti.com>
Xref: sparky news.groups:20633 rec.music.synth:17956 news.admin.policy:183
From: lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 92 18:20:11 GMT
Organization: None for me, thanks . . . I'm driving.

shirriff@sprite.berkeley.edu (Ken Shirriff) writes:

> It is clear from the guidelines that the CFV can go to any group at all
> related to the proposed topic, and not just groups affected by the vote. 

If a new group is created that covers a topic related to an existing
newsgroup, the new group will *always* affect the existing group.  A
newsgroup doesn't have to be renamed or deleted to be significantly
changed by the result of a related CFV. 

--
Lazlo (lazlo@triton.unm.edu)
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: colby@oahu.cs.ucla.edu (Kenneth Colby)
Subject: Re: RFD: sci.philosophy.language
Organization: UCLA, Computer Science Department
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 21:02:07 GMT

We would be interested in the proposed group sci.philosophy.language.

We work on the problem of conversational language.

It would helpful to discuss with others some of the difficult problems
of this domain.

Ken and Pete Colby
M.A.I.W.
From: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Forwarded article from rec.music.synth gateway maintainer
Date: 10 Nov 92 12:34:56 GMT
Organization: GSP Whitewater Slalom Racing Team

I'd simply like to reproduce this here, without comment, because of
its potential relevance.

| From: xrjdm@twinpeaks.gsfc.nasa.gov (Joseph D. McMahon)
| Newsgroups: rec.music.synth
| Subject: Looking for a new gateway maintainer
| Message-ID: <1992Nov9.181323@twinpeaks.gsfc.nasa.gov>
| Date: 9 Nov 92 23:13:22 GMT
| Sender: nobody@ctr.columbia.edu
| Reply-To: xrjdm@calvin.gsfc.nasa.gov
| Organization: NASA/GSFC NCCS
| Lines: 26
| X-Posted-From: twinpeaks.gsfc.nasa.gov
| NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu
| 
| It really saddens me to see Dave Hayes spending so much time fighting for a 
| lost cause. Worse, I'm sure many have stopped reading r.m.s simply because
| there's too much noise here. I think that there were probably readers who 
| didn't reailze that non-readers would be voting on the change of the newsgroup; 
| I did remark the lack of discussion. It's done. Let's move on.
| 
| To the meat of the matter. I have because of reasons of my own decided
| that I can no longer spend time in maintaining the gateway between the
| SYNTH-L mailing list and the rec.music.synth/rec.music.makers.synth/
| alt.rms.flamage newsgroup. If there is someone who is willing to grasp
| the torch as it falls from my fingers, please write to me at the address
| below; I will pass on the current membership list from SYNTH-L for you
| to use in establishing a new gateway.
| 
| I am utterly serious about this. The link incoming goes away at 1 AM. The
| link going out to r.m.s is already gone. 
| 
| I hope that there will be someone willing to make the effort to help 
| those who are not lucky enough to have Usenet access. If not, it's
| not as if it's going to kill anybody.

[ signature deleted to save space --- Rsk]
From: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: rec.music.synth (again)
Date: 11 Nov 92 14:44:03 GMT
Organization: GSP Whitewater Slalom Racing Team

In article <97095@netnews.upenn.edu> rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec) writes:
>I should point out that the currently-posted CFV's for rec.music.reggae
>are *not* valid CFV's for a number of reasons [...]

I've just noticed that a new CFV for rec.music.reggae has been posted --
the article arrived here a couple of hours ago.  This one does appear
to correct the problems with the previous ones, e.g. it is posted
to news.announce.newusers, and so on.  My comments in the above-cited
article were directed toward the CFV's that were present at the time
I wrote them, and are now probably obselete in light of this new posting.

---Rsk
From: hartman@ulogic.UUCP (Richard M. Hartman)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.frp.campaign
Date: 6 Nov 92 18:56:00 GMT
Organization: negligable

In article <Bx7nG3.MwK@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> cbnorman@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu writes:
>Yes.  A moderator's job is to get rid of off topic messages.  A campaign move
>which is not (quoting myself here) "in a ledgible, readible, enjoyable format
>for all" is an off-topic message.

So now some people's moves will be dumped because they are ill-written?
This seems to put those players at a disavantage if they cannot attack
the treant just because they can't type...  Or would their move be
accepted but just not posted?  That might make the campaign hard to
follow:

	The treant is now dead. 
	(reader: "hmmm. when did this happen?")

>Very well.  Everyone seems to be throwing this whole "legible, readible,
>enjoyable format for all" way out of proportion.  I'll change the charter,
>now the only restriction on GM posts is that they be designed in such a way
>that they do not require knowledge of game rules to understand, and are written
>in sentence form as a story.  Fare enough?

:s/Fare/Fair/

No.  There still has not been any acceptable justification (IMO) for 
creating a new group for this instead of just chaptering these things
up and sending them to .archives.

Discussion about campaigning also has another place to go.

		-Richard Hartman
		hartman@ulogic.COM

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Badges?  I don' got to show you no stinkin' badges!"
From: dave@frackit.UUCP (Dave Ratcliffe)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.society.folklore unmoderation
Date: 8 Nov 92 22:22:49 GMT
Organization: Data Factory Services, Harrisburg, Pa.

In article <1992Nov04.051306.16736@cavebbs.welly.gen.nz>, thomas@cavebbs.welly.gen.nz (Thomas Beagle) writes:
> In article <7683@lib.tmc.edu> jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
> >In article <1992Nov2.155517.22577@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Joel Furr) writes:
> >>Interestingly, the alt. hierarchy works just fine for
> >>alt.folklore.computers, as it was pointed out to me when I too said "let's
> >>move them all to soc.folklore.*.
> >
> >No, it doesn't. This article is posted only to news.groups because this site
> >doesn't get the alt hierarchy, because it doesn't wish to participate in the
> >alt sewer. I can't get alt.folklore.computers here.
> 
> I don't understand you. You refer to the "alt sewer" and then wish to
> appropriate one of the groups from it.

Sometimes even good things fall into the sewer. It's only fitting to try
and rescue them. The same thing was just recently done with
alt.bbs.waffle (now comp.bbs.waffle).

And by the way, "appropriating" is the incorrect word. The proposal is
to MOVE it to a place where it'll get better exposure AND propogation.

> I would suggest that you should speak to whoever runs your feed and
> collect some of the alt groups. A lot of them are worth reading. 

You're not paying attention. A lot of places don't GET the alt.*
hierarchy for one reason or another. Often it's just not available and
many SysAdmins are not interested in taking the large portion of crap
that comes with the good groups. Not to mention the endless juvenile
'newgroup wars'. 

> If you do not wish to do this, stop whinging that you cannot get the
> group.

"Can't" is not "do not wish". Learn the difference. 

> The alt.folklore.* hierarchy is alive and well. 

A debatable diagnosis. Alive, certainly. Well? Hmmmmmmm....

> I suggest leaving it alone.

Tell that to Bruce Becker. :)

> >Sorry. At least for the computer folklore group, the time has come to promote
> >it to the mainstream.
> 
> "Promote" is a bad choice of word. 

Maybe in your world. ANYTHING outside of the alt.* hierarchy is a promotion.

> For any reasonable site in the world, alt.* is as much part of the
> mainstream as anywhere else.

Mainstream? Alt? Pardon me whilst I fall out of my chair laughing. 
Things must be slow in New Zealand if you think alt is mainstream. 

-- 
 ...uunet!wa3wbu!frackit!dave -or-                       |  Dave Ratcliffe  |
 frackit!dave@uunet.UU.NET -or- dave@frackit.uucp -or-   |  Sys. <*> Admin. |
 vogon1!compnect!frackit!dave@psuvax1.psu.edu            | Harrisburg,  Pa. |
From: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: rec.music.makers.*: chronology and comments from the vote-taker.
Date: 13 Nov 92 19:52:49 GMT
Organization: GSP Whitewater Slalom Racing Team

In article <1992Nov13.164753.35047@watson.ibm.com> strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom) writes:
>Now I know that later the discussion *was* posted to
>rec.music.synth, but the subject line from the time
>that it wasn't was carried over.

I'm sorry, but that's not true.  The first RFD did not include
anything dealing with rec.music.synth, and wasn't posted there
(as you point out); the second and third RFD's did include
something dealing with rec.music.synth, were posted there,
and *did* have a different subject line.  I posted the headers
from all three RFD's last week; I can forward them to you if
you'd like to see them.

---Rsk
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: pwh@bradley.bradley.edu (Pete Hartman)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Bradley University
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 92 19:58:03 GMT

In <1992Nov06.054214.22775@watson.ibm.com> strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom) writes:
>How to remedy the problem in the future?  Either:
>(1) Require that a CFV affecting a group have that group
>    name explicitly in the subject.

I agree that this is a good way to prevent this argument
from recurring in the future.
-- 
Pete Hartman		       Bradley University	pwh@bradley.bradley.edu
             Admittedly he was listening to a _Best of Queen_ tape,
  but no conclusions should be drawn from this because all tapes left in a car
    for more than about a fortnight metamorphose into _Best of Queen_ albums
From: plutchak@pilsner.geo.brown.edu (Joel Plutchak)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: Should rec.music.makers.synth stand as a group name?
Date: 12 Nov 1992 13:56:39 GMT
Organization: Brown University Planetary Geology
NNTP-Posting-Host: pilsner.geo.brown.edu

In article <BxIHor.Es@uunet.uu.net> Dave Hayes <dave@elxr.jpl.Nasa.Gov> writes:
>Therefore, this RFD is the prelude to a vote on keeping the new name for the
>group. The question the vote will ask is: "Should rec.music.makers.synth stand 
>as a group name?". 

   Three simple points:

      1) The name change was run and voted on in accordance with the
         Guidelines.  As such, the results should stand.

      2) If there is widespread dissatisfaction with the results of
         the vote, the Guidelines can be used to vote on a change
         back to the previous name (a six-month waiting period is
         common).

      3) If the Guidelines are seen as inadequate, a distinctly
         separate effort can be made to remedy the perceived
         inadequacy.
--
Joel Plutchak, Research Programmer/Analyst
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: aiteen@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Shishuang)
Subject: Re: RFD: soc.culture.singaporean 
Organization: Purdue University
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 18:59:24 GMT

I fully support the idea of having such a newsgroup. However,
I think that it should not be restricted to only Singaporeans.
It should be a newsgroup for people who are interested in finding
out things about Singapore and what is happening there. As a result,
I think soc.culture.singapore is a better name for such a newsgroup.

-Aiteen Shishuang Zhang
(aiteen@mace.cc.purdue.edu)
From: twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Homosexual Fascist Lobby, Rampant Paranoia Division
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 06:55:23 GMT

In article <1992Nov9.115408.28715@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:

>twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) writes:
>
>>In order to be improperly run, a
>>vote must violate existing guidelines.  Demonstrate that it did so,
>>and you will have a point.  However, this vote did not.
>
>This sounds just like any argument used to justify inconsideration and 
>disrespect to an ignorant or powerless minority. Sort of like "No ethnic
>minorities in the streets after 10pm".

Sort of, except that if all the ethnic minorities get together and
vote against this rule, it will be repealed.

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / 
\  / twpierce@unix.amherst.edu / I use antlers in all of my decorating.
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) / 
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.ai.fuzzy
Organization: Homosexual Fascist Lobby, Rampant Paranoia Division
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 17:12:14 GMT

In article <1992Nov9.154826.564@news.vanderbilt.edu> LIPSCOJA@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu (Andy Lipscomb) writes:

>> For the same reasons, i'd just as soon it was not relegated to the
>> "comp" portion, either, but moved over to "sci.fuzzy_set_theory" (the
>> shorter "sci.fuzzy" would have the loonies crawling out of the
>> woodwork, unfortunately).
>
>How about .fuzzy-sets or .fuzzy-logic  (I don't care what goes before the .fuzz
>part)?

How about sci.logic.fuzzy?

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / 
\  / twpierce@unix.amherst.edu / I use antlers in all of my decorating.
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) / 
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Subject: Re: Music Group Reorg Disagreement (was Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored)
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 17:32:12 GMT

In article <martel.721316613@marvin> martel@marvin.mr.sintef.no (Paulo  
Martel) writes:
> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:
> 
> >"The Call For Votes subject line should be clear to even the first
> >time usenet reader. Otherwise people may not pay attention to it."
> 
> NOTHING is clear for the first time usenet reader :-)
> 

All the more reason to attempt to make processes that affect even the  
casual or new user easier to understand.

Unless you consider trial by fire and initiation rites to be a good thing.

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------
From: ross-c@scs.leeds.ac.uk
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: rec.music.synth namechange
Date: 9 Nov 92 19:19:09 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University Department of Computer and Information Science


Recently a vote was held on a number of topics including the renaming of
rec.music.synth to rec.music.makers.synth. 

There has been considerable discussion on the wisdom of this change, and it
appears that many people were not aware of the call for votes and/or the 
repercussions of the name change.

Without wishing to argue that being unaware of the proposed change is the
fault of one side or the other, I petition the net in general to call for
a revote on this matter.

I do not view a possible revote as a chance to prove one side right or
wrong, but as a chance to ensure that the net is handled in a manner that
suits the largest number of people.

Cheers,

Ross Clement.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Music Group Reorg Disagreement (was Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 22:21:52 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to mjp@hplb.hpl.hp.com (Mike Prudence):
>Chip> But all you need have done is read n.a.newgroups.  That's all.
>
>Oh dear.  This is starting to sound like a Monty Python sketch.

Quite so.  ("I came here for an argument."  "No, you didn't!")

>There is no minimum level of knowledge required to read or post
>articles.

No, but there _is_ some (very low) minimum level of knoweldge required
to participate in the newsgroup creation process.

>You can't assume that people know things.

Of course.  And I don't assume any such thing.  All I say is, if
people _don't_ know things, then that's _their_ fault, not mine.
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
                 just another elitist Usenet administrator
From: Kay.Shapero@f524.n102.z1.fidonet.org
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.frp.campaign
X-Sender: newtout 0.02 Nov  5 1992
Date: 05 Nov 92  17:52:19

On <Nov 04 07:34>, fau@po.CWRU.Edu (Francis A. Uy) wrote to All;


>As the current moderator of the FidoNet AD&D echo, I know what you're saying
>just isn't true.  We currently have eight campaigns going, which are followed
>almost religiously by the echo participants.  A well run fantasy role-playing

 FA>I am mostly against this.  FidoNet is not Usenet.
 FA> Posting campaigns to a local group or BBS is one
 FA> thing, sending them worldwide is another.
 FA>-- 

Actually I agree with you about the utility of the proposed group.  But
with 15,000 or so BBSs worldwide (yes, worldwide), FidoNet is not a local
group...  Frankly I suspect from his comments that the AD&D echo may have
limited distribution, or you'd think it'd be feeding time at the zoo in 
nothing flat.  I currently contribute to several "storyboards", which are 
sort of like what he describes save that there is usually only one or two 
"campaigns" per echo, all with plot generated mostly by the participants, 
not the "GM" who merely serves to try and keep things on the theme, 
whatever it might be.  And each of these is kept to a very limited 
distribution; maybe 20 bbss at most!

Incidentally, contrary to what seems to be the opinion of a lot of the
contributors to this group, Fido, being a hobby net runs heavily to college
educated members, especially those who are sysops. And the sysops, running
things out of their own pockets as they do are, if anything, more sensitive
to bandwidth problems than Usenet, where it has not been found necessary to
designate one individual in each widely distributed newsgroup to be 
responsible for keeping contributors on topic.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Kay Shapero                           ! 
Kay.Shapero@f524.n102.z1.fidonet.org  !  Endeavor to Persevere!
on Fidonet: 1:102/524                 !
--------------------------------------------------------------------- 


--- msged 2.06
Newsgroups: news.groups