HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: robear@access.digex.com (Robear)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: religion vs. philosophy
Followup-To: rec.martial-arts
Date: 30 Dec 1992 13:49:33 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In article <725674961.AA08309@urchin.fidonet.org> Stovall@f88.n106.z1.fidonet.org (Stovall) writes:
<scx is Stephen Chan...>
>
>SCX>many martial arts have a powerful spiritual component...At my
>SCX>my current Kung-fu school, there is actually a set of injunctions
>SCX>posted on the wall...
>
>It's a common practice in the dojangs of the Korean disciplines as well.

These injunctions, however, come from those used in a religious
temple.  This is what Stephen was referring to: this martial art
includes philosophy which is derived from and closely related to an
organized religion.

Most Korean or other schools I've seen did not have *rligious* based
injunctions on their walls, but rather something like the Boy Scout
Pledge.  Our school also has these, thus offereing the "Rules of the
Temple" and "Rules of the School" as different elements.

>SCX>...Is it possible to discuss the spiritual aspects of MA
>SCX>training without dragging in the religions and philosophies which
>SCX>serve as their foundation?
>
>Sure. The spiritual aspects of the MAs are not necessarily related to
>religion: philosophy, yes; religion,no.

Philosophy of "spiritual aspects" of things is, to my mind, inseperable
from some religion.  I can't think of any martial arts with spirtual 
aspects which is not cloely tied with some established religion.  Thus any
philosophies derived from these arts are just religious ideas taken out of
context.  While this may be a popular method of looking at the world now,
it was not when the arts were founded.  It is peculiarly modern.

Consider: Chinese arts are Bhuddist or Animist in origin.  Bando, Animist.
Karate, Ken*, Jiu Jutsu - Zen Bhuddist.  Pentjak Silat, Islamic.  TKD
is Christian, near as I can tell.  So what martial art, with a serious 
spiritual component, is doing only philosophy, and not religion?  Can
you list any?

Note that I am not saying that in order to swallow the philosophy 
you must practice the religion.  I just note that none of these
arts developed their moral philosophies away from religion, and 
unless you find some school of Kant-Do, you won't find such a system
without close ties to a religion.

Non-religious moral philosophy is a relatively new development; martial arts
are old.  I don't think your analysis is correct.  Fell free to email me
if you wish to correct my impressions, but I will be on vacation Jan 1
to Jan 10, so don't expect an immediate response.

	David Pipes

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: schan@birch.srg.af.mil (Stephen Chan x4485)
Subject: Re: Little pig, little pig, let me come in...
Organization: SRG, Arinc Research Corp., Annapolis, MD
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 20:57:53 GMT

In article <1gtb9kINN82e@agate.berkeley.edu> robinson@cogsci.berkeley.edu (Michael Robinson) writes:
>I thought I would share a few insights that came to me while a Psycho
>Ex-Boyfriend in a Drunken Rage (tm) was trying to kick down the door
>(someone else's, fortunately):
 [snip]
>(Jeeze, two close calls in under a month.  Am I doing something wrong?)

	Hmmm...was this PEBDR trying to break down the door of the previously
mentioned Buddhist monk? (didn't think Buddhist monks were supposed to have
boyfriends...)

	You've been accumulating some bad karma, big guy. Say a few thousand
Amida Buddhas and meditate on the mandala of your choice.

	Besides, a Taiji style finger thrust to the throat/neck area (a la fan
behind the back) can do wonders in a tight space. Snake creeps down provides a
handy shoulder/upper arm strike to the groin, with a pick-up and drop on the
couch follow up (assuming you can scoot down and in fast enough). I'm sure you
--
	Stephen Chan
	uunet!srg!schan or uunet!srg!schan@uunet.uu.net
From: sog@craycos.com (Steve Gombosi)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: The power of the mind
Date: 21 Dec 92 23:31:00 GMT
Organization: Cray Computer Corporation

In article <18DEC199209035662@venus.cc.hollandc.pe.ca> villard@venus.cc.hollandc.pe.ca (Excuse me sir...What does this core meltdown light mean) writes:
>I just wanted to post something with regards to all of the discussions 
>on chi and the like.  What one must remember is this, scientists agree 
>that the power of the mind, if tapped, could quite logically be 
>limitless.  

Ahem. Which scientists?
What does the phrase "could quite logically be limitless" mean?

>Now this doesn't mean that we are going to all fly or something, but 
>it does mean we can all do the Kreskin thing if we trained our mind. 

Wow! Card tricks!

>Now I cannot speak entirely from experience because in the form of 
>combat Jui jitsu that I received my blackbelt in was not big on the 
>"spiritual side". I am not saying that it is invalid either.  The 
>point is this- we were taught to control pain, this is just a small 
>part of the power of the mind and spirit. If properly trained one can 
>achieve incredible results, I have seen many masters in action, and I 
>will never doubt the power of CHI.

So have I, and *I* will never doubt the power of Occam's Razor ;-).

Steve
From: actize@garnet.berkeley.edu
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Newbies Question: Joint Locking
Date: 30 Dec 92 21:02:36 GMT
Distribution: ba
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

If the two of you are practicing "wrist locking, elbow locking" and
such things, what exercises, warmups do you do for these body parts ?
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: jon@zeus.med.utah.edu (Jonathan Byrd)
Subject: Re: Discussing technique
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 18:24:51 GMT
Organization: University of Utah

In article <1992Dec18.024724.19987@psych.psy.uq.oz.au> campbell@psych.psy.uq.oz.au (Campbell Dickson) writes:

   > From: taddiken@ms.uky.edu (scott taddiken)
   > Summary: One handed kouchi gari.

[stuff deleted]

   A typical example of why you don't see detailed technical discussion.

   Virtually all the technical discussion centres around Japanese MAs
   I'm sure this is because they have a highly elaborated terminology which
   enables/encourages the initiates to talk technique, and this also seems to
   suit the American mind set - plenty of posters to this group exhibit an
   highly mechanistic view of the body and its MA applications -
   witness the physiological/anatomical jargon which they like to use.

   I find this depressingly reductionist, but the significant thing is that 
   for all the apparent precision, it doesn't really address a general MA
   audience - you still have to have _experience_ of what is being alluded to
   to appreciate the discussion.

   Unless it's overloaded with masses of specialised connotations, language
   is just hopeless for conveying complex movement.  So at present technical
   stuff is really inappropriate for discussion on the net,

Please correct me if I'm mistaken, but it seems like your argument
boils down to this:

(1) If an article is not understood by everyone, it is not appropriate
for discussion "on the net" (I assume you mean "in this newsgroup").

(2) Technical discussions use terms that not everyone understands.

(3) Therefore, technical discussions are not appropriate in this
newsgroup.

In truth, we cannot discuss anything at any level unless we have some
shared experiences.  I don't believe this means we need to cater to
the lowest common denominator in every discussion.  Naturally, only a
select group of people will read, understand, or respond to any given
article.  And, naturally, discussions that appeal to only a very few
people will tend to die out quickly.

You also seem to be implying that technical discussions somehow deny
the living aspect of the art.  That is not true.  Technical terms are
chosen because they are objective, and relate the outward appearance
of a technique in a fairly unambiguous way.  There is always the
implication that we must learn the subjective, personal aspect for
ourselves.  I doubt that anyone here believes that all aspects of an
art can be conveyed via nntp.  Even the very best teacher in the world
cannot move your arms and legs for you.

You are correct that technical terms cannot relate all aspects of
martial arts practice, and cannot be used to teach novices.  Does this
render them worthless, or inappropriate?  Such terms can be used to
relate specific applications of a technique, and variations upon the
technique.  Those who do not understand the terms are free to seek out
the knowledge if they are sufficiently motivated.

--
jonathan byrd
jon@apollo.med.utah.edu
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: jon@zeus.med.utah.edu (Jonathan Byrd)
Subject: Re: martial arts info
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 23:53:54 GMT
	<JON.92Dec10161806@zeus.med.utah.edu> <4366@unisql.UUCP>
Organization: University of Utah

In article <4366@unisql.UUCP> wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie) writes:
   In article <JON.92Dec10161806@zeus.med.utah.edu> jon@zeus.med.utah.edu (Jonathan Byrd) writes:
   >>   This differs from karate tournaments where they pretend to hit each other.
   >... and then pretend to bleed.
   >
	   I was under the impression that bloody noses and etc. are
   the result of poor technique.

Are you pulling my leg, or what?

Some competitors will let their blows penetrate just a little past the
contact point.  These blows are often fast, powerful, and accurate.
The only thing "poor" about them is the fact that they make contact,
which is against the rules.  Rules notwithstanding, hard contact
happens all the time in karate tournaments, and many referees will
overlook it.  If you consider karate match competitions to be a game
of tag, remember that the difference between a "tag" and a devastating
blow is a matter of a few inches, and split-second timing.  I have
seen broken tibias, broken noses, broken ribs, knockouts and much more
in tournaments that were NOT full contact.  My point is that karate
tournaments can be punishing, and can truly test the mettle (both
mental and physical) of the competitors.

   How many full contact karate tournaments
   are there?  (Since karate blows are supposed to be lethal, how _could_
   you have full contact karate tournaments?)

Now I *know* you're pulling my leg.

--
jonathan byrd
jon@apollo.med.utah.edu
From: curt@access.digex.com (curt williams)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Coin Tossing
Date: 1 Jan 1993 15:46:28 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Distribution: ba
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com


Not at all unlike at lot of other trickery I've seen in over 25 years
as a martial artist.  I once saw a demonstration by a Korean "Master"
who was breaking a thick board with his thumb.  I was seated on the side
and could see clearly what he was really doing.  He would go through a
big show of "lining up his thumb", but would tuck it in and twist a little
just before hitting the board.  He was actually breaking with a ridge hand.
Not completely unimpressive, but also not something that any reasonable
skilled practitioner couldn't duplicate.  His real skill was in lining
up the board so the audience couldn't see the actual hit.


Ahhhhhhh well, entertainment is entertainment.
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: esot@troi.cc.rochester.edu (Eric Sotnak)
Subject: Re: More ki/qi/chi & science
Organization: University of Rochester - Rochester, New York
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 03:05:45 GMT

In <1992Dec21.145820.25353@srg.srg.af.mil> schan@birch.srg.af.mil (Stephen Chan x4485) writes:

>	Scientists often conjecturing the existence of things which they have
>never directly observed, then asking the government for billions and billions
>of dollars to create instrumentation with which to _attempt_ to observe these
>hypothetical particles.
>	What's the difference? All these quarks (or whatever) are unobserved,
>purely theoretical and could very well only exist in the minds of the
>scientists (subjective enough, huh?).

  But there are ways to manipulate physical systems in such ways as to
produce observable effects which would be difficult to explain if such
particles and entities were merely theoretical.  I don't think the same is
true of ki/chi/qi.

>	Besides, who ever actually *sees* things like mesons and neutrinos? All
>that is ever seen is their effect on the environment as they break down, or
>as they rip through a big vat of fluid.
>	One never actually *sees* qi, but one can observe it's effects. But in
>this instance, that's just not good enough to justify further research.

  Are you sure one can observe the effects of ki/qi?  What are these
observable effects, and are they effects with such a character as to be
difficult to explain without ontological commitment to ki/qi?

  As I've mentioned before, it is unlikely that research into the
nature/existence of ki/qi will be funded until a clear articulation of some
range of phenomena for which qi/ki is hypothesized to be responsible
appears.  In all probability there must be some means devised (a
non-subjective means) for MEASURING/QUANTIFYING ki/qi in respect of rate of
flow, or degree of intensity, or number of ki/qi "particles" (or whatever)
per square millimeter, etc.

  None of this, moreover, requires one to be a dogmatic adherent of logical
positivism or an idealized scientific methodology.
--
********************************************************************
Eric Sotnak                   |  One life.
esot@troi.cc.rochester.edu    |  One chance.
From: JTCHEW@lbl.gov (Ad absurdum per aspera)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Re: where to buy a CLUB for my car
Followup-To: rec.martial-arts
Date: 21 Dec 1992 15:10:50 GMT
Organization: Honest Ernie's Used Ions
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.252.152

> Ok. I see.  Sounds more like movement toward anything that _might_ be used as
> a weapon is the key instead of just a flashlight of 4-cells or greater.

Uh... yah.  If your site gets rec.guns, check out the "how to interact with
a cop" thread (also an occasional though not current topic on
rec.autos.driving).  Seems that one consequence of the general decay of
society is a certain gooseyness among our well-armed friends in blue when
they make "routine" traffic stops.  You don't want to act apologetic or
suspiciously overcooperative, but you don't want to make any moves toward
anything that might be assumed to be a weapon, either.  

Thinkin'more and more often about quittin' the city,

Joe
"Just another personal opinion from the People's Republic of Berkeley"
From: landman@hal.COM (Howard Landman)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts,rec.arts.dance,rec.folk-dancing
Subject: Re: Dance Notatation
Date: 22 Dec 92 19:33:39 GMT
Organization: HaL Computer Systems, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: bang.hal.com

>esh6h@fulton.seas.Virginia.EDU (Erik Scot Hatcher) writes:
>>I'm a martial artist and I've looking to document some of
>>my moves (forms,katas, etc).
>>
>>I've heard of a dance notation that is used to put the
>>moves on paper.
>>
>>Anybody in net land know of this?

In article <1992Dec16.031539.8518@alw.nih.gov> drury@helix.nih.gov (Richard Drury) writes:
>Please post rather than email replies to this query as the answer
>should be of interest to anyone who has tried to understand 
>seminar notes two weeks later.  Thanks.

It sounds like you are asking about Laban Notation.  This is a way of writing
down dance moves on paper.  I believe it is mostly used in modern dance, not
so much in ballet.  Even in modern, it is rarely used because it is so
difficult to learn.  I took 3 years of modern dance and was never required
to study, read, or write it.

I don't think it makes sense to try to use that for MA, as much of the
shorthand is probably for specific well-known dance moves that might not be
particularly effective on the street.  Unless you're dancing for quarters.  :-)

The motivation for Laban Notation was that there was no other way to record
dances.  Music could be preserved across generations, but not dance.  In that
sense, it's primarily an archival technique, not a language for composing new
dances.  It's more detailed, and hence better, than the mere writing down of
a position every so often, which is what gets done for written notation of
most Tai Chi forms.

Today, I think videotape is a much better solution.  Augmented with specific
comments (weight 40%front-60%back, palm down, ...) it should be quite good.

	Howard
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: Gordon.Wormser@launchpad.unc.edu (Gordon Wormser)
Subject: Re: Aikido in Ann Arbor
Organization: University of North Carolina Extended Bulletin Board Service
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 04:34:05 GMT

In article <Bidlackhw.15@falcon.usafa.af.mil> Bidlackhw@falcon.usafa.af.mil (Harold W. Bidlack) writes:
>Does anyone know if there is an active Aikido group in Ann Arbor, Michigan?

Give these a try:

           Ann Arbor Recreation Dept 
Address:  Clague School; aux. gym;
Ann Arbor Mi 
Sensei:  Bob Sweet, Sandan; 
(313) 994-1429 
Affiliat:  AYANA

           Ann Arbor Y 
Address:  350 S. 5th Ave.; Ann Arbor, MI 
Sensei:  Jim Hadden: Sandan; 
(313) 663-0536 (Adult Classes) 
Senseis:  Renee Ruta, Nidan; (313) 769-1993,(313) 677-1900
          Ron Harrow, Nidan; (313) 426-2919 (Youth Classes) 
Affiliat:  AYANA
           
Asian Martial Arts Center 
Address:  201 North Fourth Ave., Ann Arbor, MI 48104 
Schedule:  M T W Th 10-9, F 10-7, S 10-5 
Phone:  (313) 994-3620 
Sensei:  Karl Scott. 
Affiliat:  American Shudokan Assoc. (Walter E. Todd) and Int'l
           Martial Arts Federation/Kokusai Budoin, Japan 
Weapons:  jo, bokken, tanto, yari
           
Genyokan Dojo 
Address:  749 Airport Blvd., Suite 4; Ann Arbor, MI 
Phone:  (313) 662-4686
Shihan:  Kushida Sensei, 8th Dan 
Senseis:  Akira Kushida, Godan, Hisako Kushida, Godan 
Contact:  Larry Peck (313) 761-3868 eve. (313) 747-0056 days 
Affiliat:  AYANA (Aikido Yoshinkai Association of North America) headquarters
           
University of Michigan Aikido Club 
Address:  Intramural Sports Building; 606 E. Hoover; Ann Arbor, MI 
Shihan:  Kushida Sensei, 8th Dan
Contact:  Dan Kaiser (313) 995-9592, 973-1300 
Affiliat:  AYANA
--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
From: Kenneth_Ferguson@rand.org (Ken Ferguson)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Thai kickboxing
Date: 30 Dec 92 14:10:34 GMT
     <1992Dec29.133031.11557@srg.srg.af.mil> <1992Dec29.194931.3472@reed.edu>
     <1hqhkuINNdfs@agate.berkeley.edu>
Organization: RAND
X-UserAgent: Nuntius v1.1a2


>One writer mentions Benny Urquidez and says that Mr. Urquidez has won a
lot
>of fights against Thai boxers. True enough, but Mr. Urquidez is a
superior
>fighter by any measure. He could probably beat almost anyone in a fight.
It
>does not mean that other arts are no good.


  I never said that the other arts were no good. What I was saying was
that like all 
arts some have weak points and some have strong points, No art is perfect.

  The fact that Benny showed the Tai fighters that American kick boxing
was every bit as good, if not better than tai kickboxing, proves that it
is
not the style but the person that practices  that makes the art. I think
you will find that is what I was inferring.

  Now as for the inferrence that I am full of the little round things
that goats
drop. I must say that the meaning behind the study of MA was definitly
wasted
on some people.


    Ken Ferguson  

    JET CENTER, Van Nuys Ca.
From: mccoy@cayman.com (Michael McCoy)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Kenpo
Date: 21 Dec 92 18:40:27 GMT
Reply-To: mccoy@cayman.com (Michael McCoy)
Organization: cayman.com

In <BzDDE4.B1K@world.std.com>, eclipse@world.std.com (Mark Urbin) writes:
>Kempo (or kenpo, it's an accent thing.  How you pronouce
>depends on what part of Japan you are from) is the
>Japanese translation of chau fa (sp!). Roughly in English,
>it means `Fist Law'.  It's a generic term for a striking
>based martial art.

Hmmm... I was under the impression that Kempo and Kenpo were very 
distinct styles. I studied Kempo briefly while I was in college (I was on 
vacation, and couldn't find a Shotokan school near my house) -- I 
remember being distinctly underwhelmed by the Sanchin stances and 
emphasis on circular blocks and movements (and lack of sparring). A 
couple of years later, I started studying Kenpo in Newton, Mass. The style 
there was very linear, with a lot of emphasis on straight punches and 
blocks and more training in kicking. The instructor emphasized we were 
studying keNpo, not keMpo -- white belts were required to spell it as part 
of the first test. So.... are the two styles variations on a theme, or are 
they really different styles? (Or is kenpo/kempo so generic that it covers 
almost any style?)

================================================
You are not here to verify,
Instruct yourself or inform curiousity
Or carry report. You are here to kneel
Where prayer has been valid.
From: Stovall@f88.n106.z1.fidonet.org (Stovall)
Sender: Jpunix@urchin.fidonet.org
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: religion vs. philosophy
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 00:00:02 -0500

(deleted discussion on wall postings)

RO>Most Korean or other schools I've seen did not have *rligious* based
RO>injunctions on their walls, but rather something like the Boy Scout
RO>Pledge.  Our school also has these, thus offereing the "Rules of the
RO>Temple" and "Rules of the School" as different elements.

No matter the origin, a code of ethics is a philosophical statement and
not inherently religious.

RO>Philosophy of "spiritual aspects" of things is, to my mind,
RO>inseperable from some religion.  I can't think of any martial arts
RO>with spirtual aspects which is not cloely tied with some established
RO>religion.  Thus any philosophies derived from these arts are just
RO>religious ideas taken out of context...

There are many "religious" ideas that are not particularly appealing.
The injunction, "God's on our side", has been used throughout the ages
to send men into battle -- by both sides!

(deleted discussion on religious origins of various MAs)

RO>Non-religious moral philosophy is a relatively new development;
RO>martial arts are old.  I don't think your analysis is correct.

It depends upon your definition of religion: one can call any
obsession a religion. In that context, one could say that some Martial
Arts are a religion.

If one's behavior is honest and forthright, it makes no difference to
society if the motivation was religious, philosophical or came out of
Cracker Jack box.

Peace in our time,

Tom
___
 X SLMR 2.1a X "Religion is the opiate of the people..." Karl Marx
From: azw@aber.ac.uk (Andrew Michael Woodward)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Kicking someone's xxx.
Date: 31 Dec 92 15:23:23 GMT
Organization: University of Wales, Aberystwyth

>that know about "fighting words"?

Dont know the legality, but the practicality is that he says 'I'm going to 
knock your fuc...'. You spark. You win. You run away just in case. 99%
foolproof. 

Judge when the situation is out of hand, then defend preemptively and SUDDENLY.
If he gets in first and knows what he's doing, or is just lucky, you are out
of it.

Better still just to run away in the first place, or apologise profusely and
buy the guy a drink, etc., etc. It should never get to this point. If it does,
regard it as a failure of a much more important technique.
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Kyokushinkai
From: ritchie_l@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz
Date: 27 Dec 1992 03:58:25 GMT
Reply-To: ritchie_l@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz
Organization: Wellington City Council (Public Access), Wgtn, Nz
NNTP-Posting-Host: kosmos.wcc.govt.nz

Does anyone do kyokushinkai here?
If so please send email to me.....

Lawrence Ritchie (sempai