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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.seasia-l
Date:         Fri, 16 Oct 1992 01:32:40 EDT
From:         USER0HWF@UM.CC.UMICH.EDU
Subject:      Anti Columbus celebration, ... so what ....

arusydi .......
 happened around the world. The issues of Native-American and Oz-aborigin
 for examples are comparable here. I am glad to hear that there is a
 young brilliant American who is studying and working at BrownUniv told
 a friend of mine in the last couple days that he joined the movement
 to PROTEST the Columbus Day celebration and parade in his town!!!
 The reason is that Christ Columbus never found the land, but Indian!!!
 So, there have been A BIG LYING going on here, right underneath of
 Mr. Trocki's sole of foot :-). But I would like to listen how a
 'jacobson visiting associate professor of history' teach us how
 to give a freedom to Native-American to decide their status and
 be independent. Yes, there is another side of coin :-).

     Protesting Columbus day celebration, so what? This is a typical
     domestic movement in America. Celebrated, sub-marginal meaning,
     and hollow. So what? If everyone here is so 'politically correct'
     and accept the notion that Columbus was a vilain, then what are
     they going to do? Packing their suitcase, and give the land back?

     BC.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.seasia-l
Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 10:06:37 -0400
From:         Djoko Wirosoetisno <djoko@RAINBOW.PHYSICS.UTORONTO.CA>
Subject:      Re: Woow ...

   I haven't seen many inntelligent comments from Indonesians on
this East Timor issue, so here's my .0001% worth :

   Parikesit wrote :

>    I need to ask two questions concerning these East Timor ordeal, just
>    to get a clearer picture ;
>
> 1. Why does the East Timorese is so persistent (like you say)
>    to be independent.

   Some East Timorese want to have their own country, some, however want
be part of Indonesia. We don't know what the majority opinion is because
before they had a chance to vote on this very important issue Jakarta
ordered its army to invade the region.

>    What are the benefit for them as an Independent country,

   Whether they wold be better off as an independent state or not is not
an issue, what matters is the right of a people to determine their own
future --- this is in the preamble to the Indonesian constitution, BTW.
The issue is the right to self-determination, which I hope every
Indonesian believe.

> and why being Indonesian is so bad for them ?

   I assume you're Indonesian, so let me ask you this question :
If the US invaded Indonesia, would you happily disown your identity
as an Indonesian and call yourself an American instead ? Their standard
of living is higher than Indonesia's after all.
   I would much rather keep my Indonesian citizenship, if you're
interested.

> 2. What do they have to live on as an Independent country ?

   Again, this is _not_ the issue. If they voted to be independent,
they would have to worry about their resources themselves. There is
no justification for Indonesia, according to international and
Indonesian laws, to `rescue' these poor people by occupying their land.

   - Djoko.
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Date:         Fri, 9 Oct 1992 15:07:19 EDT
From:         "(Erwin Brisbanuharto)" <ebrisban@CS.MTU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: East Timor flames
              Parker" at Oct 9, 92 7:46 am

> We went through a flame war a few months ago on East Timor.

You are right Mr Parker. We had a big flame a few months ago and
one of us got kicked out of the list (this is an example that shows
the existence of censorship and injustice in this country).
Apparently, it did not solve the problem, did it??
We still have the same old flame here. That's because we were
not the one who burned the flame. You knew it, didn't you??

Best regards,
Erwin
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Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 04:52:12 -0600
From:         "INDRA, BUSN 6080-002" <I2MARTOKOESO@CUDNVR.DENVER.COLORADO.EDU>
Subject:      Re: etimor-indonesia and parallels with the ex-ussr

Yes Mr. Robert, I think you are right.
Probably we as Indonesian has a different source of news and that
is why both side in East Timor debate in this list feels that
they are the right side.
Okay all my Indonesian friend, let just stop this debate.
Better if we just wait and see the development.
If later East Timor free from Indonesia, that is okay...we still
have a lot of province.
If East Timor still in Indonesia let us develop that province
and help them to be more wealth.
Beside this I don't see that this debate is useful for us.
Many of us came to USA for education, so the main target
is how to graduate with a good GPA. Let just other people
talk about East Timor, probably they can do something.
As long as they are not bothering our own life, that's okay!!!
Because the main point is as I said before, this debate will be
difficult to solve as aresult from different source of news.
Good luck with your study!

IMARTO
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.seasia-l
Date:         Wed, 7 Oct 1992 02:26:56 EDT
From:         MRUBYONO@SUVM.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Burma: Getting ready for offensive

> Message-Id:   <9210062152.AA08809@suna7.cs.uiuc.edu>
> Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 16:52:23 -0500
> From: Max Becherer <becherer@suna0.cs.uiuc.edu>
> Subject:      Re:  Burma: getting ready for offensive
> To: Multiple recipients of list SEASIA-L <SEASIA-L@MSU.BITNET>
>
>     What I don't understand is why, if the West is so irritated at the Junta,
> don't we provide the rebels with weapons ?  If I had my way, we would supply
> them with between 500 million and 1 billion dollars in armements.
>
>                 Max Becherer    becherer@cs.uiuc.edu

What is it anyway? Its a joke or proposal for peace?
A human-right movement support to rebel? If the rebels win then they
will probably have their opposition. Later the opposition want to have
and defend their human right. They (the same people) will always fight
against each other while the West support one group or more using
their tax-money. Whereas, a few of us as the tax payers in this net
just celebrated for the victory of cancelling an aid using the tax.
So, what is your phylosophy? What is the fundamental principle of
human right movement (or can I say 'human right fundamentalism)?
Feel free to teach me on this. Thanks.

ruby
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Date:         Sat, 10 Oct 1992 15:47:00 GMT
From:         "Vietnam Publications" <0004741206@MCIMAIL.COM>
Subject:      VN Price Weekly No. 23 (1992)

VN Price Weekly, No. 23 (1992)
Copyright (c) 1992 by Vietnam Publications (email: vinexco@mcimail.com)

Prices in Ho Chi Minh City, Hanoi, Da Nang, Can Tho as of October 10, 1992:

*** US dollar stable, European currencies plunged
*** Gold rose slightly
*** Price of cement rose again

         Notes: "0", "+", "-", "unchanged", difference since
                previous VN Price Weekly report, in parentheses.
         All suggestions for improvement are welcome.

1. US Dollar:
   ForEx HCM: buy 10,930 dong/US (0) since 10/2/92.

   Vietcombank (buy/sell):
           HCM         HANOI        DANANG       CANTHO
   ----------------------------------------------------------
    10/10 10840/10930  10750/10930  10800/10925  10800/10930
           (-10/0)        (0/-5)       (0/-15)      (0/-15)

   Market (buy/sell):
           HCM         HANOI        DANANG       CANTHO
   ----------------------------------------------------------
    10/10 10860/10880  10810/10840  10840/10870  10850/10870
             (0/0)      (-10/0)        (0/0)      (+10/+10)

   Vinexco NY exchange rate (dong/US dollar):
           HCM     HANOI   DANANG   NHATRANG   CANTHO
   ----------------------------------------------------
    10/10  10900   10770   10800    10800      10900
           (-10)    (0)    (-50)     (0)        (0)

2. Other currencies at Vietcombank (buy/sell):

     Swiss Franc   French Franc   Deutsch Mark
   ---------------------------------------------
     7953/8417     2078/2199      7035/7446
    (-343/-543)    (-76/-128)    (-248/-420)

3. Gold:
   State (Gold 99% Au, retailed buy/sell in thousand dongs per 1/10th tael):
           HCM       HANOI     DANANG    CANTHO
   -----------------------------------------------
    10/10  460/470   465/470   465/473   456/461
            (0/0)    (+1/0)    (+2/+2)   (+2/+2)

   Market (Gold 99% Au, buy/sell in thousand dongs per 1/10th tael):
           HCM       HANOI     DANANG    CANTHO
   -----------------------------------------------
    10/10  464/471   459/465   456/465   456/461
           (+2/+1)   (+2/+2)   (+2/+2)   (+2/+1)

4. Other prices in HCM City (unchanged except for cement)

   Average rice            d 2,050 / kg        [ga.o te? thu*o*!ng]
   Pork [ham]              d21,500 / kg        [thi.t lo*.n mo>ng sa>'n]
   Sugar [Grade 1 white]   d 4,000 / kg        [crystalized, produced locally]
   Fish sauce (15%)        d 2,000 / liter
   Gas [A72-A76]           d 2,300 / liter
   Fertilizer [urea-type]  d 2,100 / kg
   Cement                  d42,000 / 50 kg bag (+2000).
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Organization: Central Michigan University
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.seasia-l
Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 16:06:25 EDT
From:         Elliott Parker <3ZLUFUR@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>
Subject:      Keep SEASIA-L archives?

Should the notebooks of SEASIA-L (this is a copy of every msg. that
has been posted to the list) be retained?
   As you can imagine, they are now pretty massive.  Technically,
there is no problem, but our sponsor still has to pay the bills.
I am willing to go to them and make a pitch to keep the archives
if you out there think they are valuable.
   Otherwise, we could start deleting the oldest (from last
January).
   Let me know by personal email--no need to clog the list.

========================================================================
Elliott Parker                   Bitnet: 3ZLUFUR@CMUVM
List Owner, SEASIA-L and CARR-L  Internet: 3zlufur@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu
Department of Journalism         Less certain possibilities:
Central Michigan University        eparker@igc.apc.org
Mt. Pleasant, MI 48859 USA         CompuServe: 70701,520
Office tele: +1 (517) 774-3196     The WELL: eparker@well.sf.ca.us
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.seasia-l
Date:         Sun, 11 Oct 1992 00:33:31 -0400
From:         Djoko Wirosoetisno <djoko@RAINBOW.PHYSICS.UTORONTO.CA>
Subject:      FAKE MESSAGE

Dear everyone on the seasia-l :

   I was very angry and disappointed to find that someone who presumably
disliked my views on several things sent a fake message to seasia-l
under my name. [ This is not very difficult to do with SMTP ].
I just want to make this clear to everybody --- I did NOT send the
message "manage your hometown" dated 1992.10.10.22.33.50 (-04.00) !

   To the person who sent the message : It's easy to fake e-mail
messages, I've known that for a long time. Had I wanted to keep my
identity secret [I have many more reasons to do that than you !!!],
I could have easily done that by doing what you did --- faking e-mail
address. You have one chance : send a letter of apology to seasia-l
in 48 hours, you don't need to identify yourself [you know very well
how to do this] and I will forget what happened. If no such message
is send, I will get you prosecuted to the fullest extent.

   Warning for others : E-mails are VERY EASY to fake [I personally
know how to do that, although I never tried], all we could hope for
is that people will behave in a decent (unlike the person who sent
the message) manner in the net, and out in the world.

   Thank you.

   Djoko Wirosoetisno
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From: I2MARTOKOESO@CUDNVR.DENVER.COLORADO.EDU (GOD BLESS INDONESIA!!!)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.seasia-l
Subject: Re: Response on ET
Date: 13 Oct 92 20:30:07 GMT
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Hi Erwin,
Looks like the dicussion about East Timor will not be solved.
The reason is there is a difference source of news that make
2 opinions in this list.
Another reason is we can see tat usually the one that posting
news (about East Timor) in this list is from the people that
support the independence of East Timor from Indonesia.
I have an opinion, why don't we rather, than made anunsolved
discussion (and made a flames), try also to post some news
about EastTimor.
The reason is because many of people in this list is only know
the news from the above source and never have news from others.
So just posting that kind of that news and let people judge it.
In that way we don't have to made "flame discussion"
Thank you,

MARTO
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.seasia-l
Date:         Wed, 7 Oct 1992 23:41:29 EDT
From:         "'Krakatoa Project'" <arusydi@SUVM.SYR.EDU>
Subject:      East Timor on Kompas

JAKARTA, 10-1-1992.
IT HAS REPORTED THAT THE LOGISTIC DEPOT OF EAST TIMOR WAS READY
TO SUPPLY 8.300 TONS OF RICE IN STOCK. THE NUMBERS ALMOST REACHED
THE SUPPLY TARGET OF 14.275 TONS OF RICE THAT WILL BE ACHIEVED IN
SEVERAL WEEKS. THE DEPOT ALSO HAS 1.033 TONS OF UNHULLED PADDY IN
STOCK. SO FAR NO REPORT FROM THE 13 'BUPATI' (REGENT) REGARDING
LACK OF RICE. [KOMPAS 10-1-1992]

JAKARTA, 9-29-1992.
INDONESIAN MINISTRY COORDINATOR OF POLITIC AND SECURITY HAS
RECEIVED AN APOLOGY FROM MALAYSIAN MINISTER OF INFORMATION
REGARDING A TYPO ERROR ON THE TEXT OF THE NEWS ABOUT DILI
INCIDENT BROADCASTED BY THE RTM ON 9-23-1992. [KOMPAS 9-29-1992]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.seasia-l
Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 16:58:25 -0400
From:         Nhan Tran <tran@PEORA.SDC.CCUR.COM>
Subject:      NEWS/VN: French bikers injured in VN

10/06

FRENCH BIKERS INJURED IN VIETNAM

    HANOI, Oct 7, Reuter - A truck ran into a group of French bikers riding old
Harley Davidsons through Vietnam, seriously injuring the rally's organiser, a
French diplomat said on Wednesday.
    A Vietnamese truck hit pack leader Daniel Roussel on Sunday as he and about
25 other French men and women drove up the coast through the poor central
province of Quang Ngai, the diplomat told Reuters.
    Four or five of the 11 motorcycles making the trip were involved in the
accident and their riders hurt.
    Roussel suffered serious head injuries and a broken leg, and was evacuated
on a special flight to Singapore, the diplomat said.
    A western tourist who met the bikers in Danang after the accident told
Reuters they were shaken but had decided to continue their 2,000-km (1,250-
mile) trip to Hanoi.
    The group left Danang on Tuesday for the old imperial capital of Hue. They
started the tour from Ho Chi Minh City on September 30.
    Roussel organised the rally after refurbishing Harley Davidsons that had
belonged to the police motorcade of former South Vietnamese president Nguyen
Van Thieu before the Vietnam war ended in 1975.
    He found the motorcycles, which were manufactured in the United States in
1957, rusting in a police garage in Ho Chi Minh City in 1990 and rented them
from the police.
    Roussel, a former Hanoi correspondent for the French newspaper L'Humanite,
now runs a small television production company.
From: 3ZLUFUR@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU (Elliott Parker)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.seasia-l
Subject: SG: Job openings
Date: 15 Oct 92 13:08:24 GMT
Organization: Central Michigan University
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=======================  Forwarded  Message  ===========================
Date:         Wed, 14 Oct 1992 23:39:42 EDT
Subject:      CND-US, October 15, 1992

+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+   C h i n a   N e w s   D i g e s t  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

                                (US Regional)
                          Thursday, October 15, 1992

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
4. Automation Job Opening in Singapore; Architecture Position in Taiwan . 34
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>From: L. John Liang
Date: Oct. 12, 1992

Motorola is forming an entrepreneurial automation center in Singapore.
Beginning in January 1993, it will serve Motorola factories in Taiwan, Hong
Kong, Korea, Japan, Malaysia, Manila, and Singapore.  This Center will
design and build robotic workstations with vision; implement CIM (Computer
Integrated Manufacturing) software; and do factory simulation and modeling.
Similar centers are already operational in the U.S.  and Scotland.

Candidates for these permanent positions in Singapore should have a masters
degree in mechanical engineering, electrical engineering, computer science,
or operations research/industrial engineering, with in-depth training in
robotics, CIM, or simulation.  Industrial experience is a plus.  Very
competitive salary and benefits.

Send resumes by mail to: Peggy Eastwood, Motorola Inc., IL01, Fourth
Floor, 1303 E. Algonquin Rd.,Schaumburg, Illinois 60196
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.seasia-l
Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 11:51:00 +8
From:         ISROBERT@CPHKVX.BITNET
Subject:      etimor-indonesia and parallels with the ex-ussr

Max, other interested parties,
I have a feeling that we are running into a kind of time-warped information
barrier here, re: were/are the east timorese treated like animals or not.
I think that the facts have been gone over enough and most of us who are
interested in this issue know enough to decide for themselves.
To draw a parallel with the ex-USSR, when I was in Voronezh, south east of
Moscow for 3 months in 1988, we talked to our russian teachers about the baltic
question - were the baltic republics annexed, did they voluntarily join the
ussr at the end of ww2, etc. The russians often sincerely believed that the
baltic states were not annexed, that there was no such thing as a
molotov-ribbentrop pact, etc. You can call it brainwashed, or information
deprived, or whatever. I suspect that to some extent the same is true in this
rapidly escalating debate on atrocities in e.timor - the 2 sides are talking
from different information standpoints, neither of which is purely black
or white, but both of which have national interests at stake, one way or
he other. In this case I have my own opinion based on what i have read and also
seen in indonesia - i think that there are productive and unproductive ways of
convincing others.

Robert Davison,
ISROBET@CPHKVX.BITNET
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.seasia-l
Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 16:44:23 -0400
From:         Nhan Tran <tran@PEORA.SDC.CCUR.COM>
Subject:      CAM: Lasting peace far from assured in Cambodia, UN official says

10/06

LASTING PEACE FAR FROM ASSURED IN CAMBODIA, U.N. OFFICIAL SAYS

WASHINGTON (OCT. 6) DPA - The head of the United Nations Transitional Authority
in Cambodia (UNTAC) met Tuesday with American officials, reporting on the
difficult road to peace.

Yasushi Akashi, UNTAC head, told a National Press Club news conference that the
United Nations is trying to decide now whether to postpone elections, or to
simply ignore the Democratic Kampuchea (DK) movement, formerly called the
Khmers Rouges.

DK claims that Vietnam has reneged on its promise to pull out its troops from
Cambodia.

Akashi said that every DK claim was investigated and no verified sighting of
any Vietnamese troops had been discovered. But he conceded that there is a
large population of Vietnamese settlers -as many as two million or one-quarter
of Cambodia's population - who remain.

Defining that Vietnamese population so it conforms to the Cambodian peace
settlement is a continuing, unsettled issue.

One possibilty, Akashi said, would be to postpone the elections until the issue
is resolved and another would be to simply ignore the DK.

''The worst scenario,'' Akashi said, would be if the other major Cambodian
groups simply ignore the DK and then the DK resumes the civil war in order to
disrupt the voting.

Hun Sen, head of the administration in Phnom Penh, has come to the United
Nations saying that he feared the outbreak of anti-Vietnamese riots in the
capital. If Hun Sen were to protect the Vietnamese population, he has told the
U.N., it would amount to political suicide for himself since he has already
been accused of pro-Vietnamese smpathies by the Cambodians.

Akashi said, ''It's a difficult situation'', but he told Hun Sen that the UNTAC
could not take over the job of ensuring civilian security and it was a job for
the Cambodians to handle by themselves.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.seasia-l
Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 16:54:24 -0400
From:         Nhan Tran <tran@PEORA.SDC.CCUR.COM>
Subject:      NEWS/VN: debate changes to controversial land law

10/06

VIETNAM DEBATE CHANGES TO CONTROVERSIAL LAND LAW

    HANOI, Oct 6, Reuter - The Vietnamese National Assembly debated on Tuesday
land law amendments which would give people more control over plots they lease
from the government, an official newspaper reported.
    The Evening News said deputies discussed proposed changes to the law, which
took effect in 1988, that would make it easier for people to inherit land use
and rent it to others. They did not ratify the amendments and were expected to
continue the debate.
    The land law, which was approved in December 1987, provided a legal
framework to agricultural reforms that the government launched in the mid-1980s.
    Those reforms marked a departure from an old system of collectivised
farming by giving peasants new freedom to lease land from the state, grow the
produce they wanted and sell it on the open market.
    While all land still officially belongs to the state, that new freedom
transformed Vietnam from a rice importer to the third biggest rice exporter in
the world by 1989.
    But land use has remained a topic of hot debate, with Vietnamese companies
now renting government land to foreign companies for big profits and families
quickly erecting houses all around Hanoi and other cities to try to establish
ownership.
    The government says it encourages overseas investment, but foreign
businessmen say they will feel insecure about certain investments in Vietnam
until private land ownership is legalised.
    "The 1988 land law is not concrete enough to resolve many important
questions in land management and use...and brings about many negative
phenomenon...land disputes occur every day, but there is an inadequate legal
structure to settle them," the newspaper said.
    National Assembly officials said earlier that they did not expect the
deputies, who began their semi-annual meeting in Hanoi on September 18, to
ratify the amendments of the land law before they end the current session later
this week.
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