From: exukjb@exu.ericsson.se (ken bell)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: LORD, LIAR, OR LUNATIC?
Date: 4 Sep 92 16:38:36 GMT
Organization: Ericsson Network Systems, Inc.

In article <71813@apple.Apple.COM> mikel@Apple.COM (Mikel Evins) writes:
>From: mikel@Apple.COM (Mikel Evins)
>Subject: Re: LORD, LIAR, OR LUNATIC?
>Date: 29 Aug 92 23:04:55 GMT

>In article <10557@spark.ed.ac.uk> iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Ivan A Derzhanski) writes:
>>>>From the gospel of John, chapter 8:
>>>
>>>     "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
>>>     At this, they picked up stones to stone him.
>>>
>>>The reason they were going to stone him, is that "I am" is the way God
>>>characterized himself to Moses, and every Jew knew that claim well.
>>
>>I can't say that this isn't possible, but were the words `I am' taboo?
>>I wonder, if Queen Victoria (I think) were God, would anyone who said
>>"We are not amused" be guilty of blasphemy?

>I think this criticism is plausible, but weak. The phrase attributed
>here to Jesus is not clear when taken literally (assuming any
>reasonable translation), and so begs to be taken as a figure
>of speech. Because we know that figure of speech is used in
>a particular sense in a literature well-known to the speaker's
>audience, I think this passage can very reasonably be taken
>as a claim to divinity (though, in itself, not necessary an
>exclusive one).

>The phrase attributed to god on Mt. Sinai is usually rendered in
>English as 'I am that I am'. Does anyone know whether this is
>the same phrase (or a close translated equivalent) in the
>original texts? That is, does Jesus use this same phrase,
>or a similar one?

>>>>From John 10:
>>>
>>>     "I and the Father are one."  <...>
>>>     "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews,
>>>     "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
>>
>>As a netter already pointed out, "I and God are one" sounds like a
>>Hindu statement.  Could Jesus have said also "You and the Father are
>>one" or "You and I are one"?  We can't be sure.

>This still looks like a claim of divinity, although again not
>necessarily an exclusive one. It would weaken the case for
>an unambiguous claim to divinity if there are passages in
>which Jesus is quoted as saying a person other than himself
>is one with the Father, or some such thing.

>>>>From John 17:
>>>
>>>    "Father, the time has come.  Glorify your Son, that your Son may
>>>    glorify you.  For you granted him authority over all people that
>>>    he might give eternal life to all those you have given him."
>>
>>Well, having authority (even the authority to give eternal life on
>>God's behalf) doesn't necessarily mean being a god, does it?  There
>>should be more to godhood.  This is just one function that may or may
>>not be associated with it.

>I agree with you here.

>>>When he appeared to Thomas:  (John 20)
>>>
>>>    "Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"  Then Jesus told him,
>>>    "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those
>>>    who have not seen and yet have believed."
>>
>>Again, he avoids saying the words "I am God" himself.

>Again, I agree, although here our best choices are to either
>regard the quotation as a claim of divinity or as some
>very slippery weaseling on Jesus' part (obviously Christians
>will be unlikely to choose the latter option).

However, John 17:3 actually says, "And this is life eternal, that they might 
know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."  

We shouldn't overlook the wise observation made by Mr. Dodd, that 
biblical interpretation must be based, not on the *words*, but on the
*statements* of the biblical text. And the statements clearly add up to a 
claim of divinity on the part of Jesus. It thus seems that the historicity 
of the person Jesus, together with the belief that he said what has been 
ascribed to him, then something very like the incompatible triad being 
discussed here is quite plausible. I think it is undeniable that Jesus 
lived; the main difficulty resting squarely on christian scholars to show 
that he actually did say what he is purported to have said. And that is 
controversial and quite deniable.

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