HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dabachma@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu (Donald A Bachman)
Subject: Re: How do axioms really work?
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 18:05:50 GMT

marcogan@student.anu.edu.au writes:

>Rick Jones writes recently in response to the alternate cyberpapacy debate:

>>	Ah, but when thetech axiom leapfrogged from the Dark Ages to
>>Cybertechnology, people got an intuitive understanding of technology.
>>For most people, it's enough so they turn on the light switch and

	[various deleted]

>I prefer to see things this way: the axioms measure the upper bounds of
>things. So CE's Social and Tech axioms have always been as high as they
>are; democracy ahs always been possible, but it takes time to develop.
>Conversely, the magic and spiritual axioms allow for moderately powerful
>spells and miracles, but most people do not belive in, or use, that
>knowledge. 

>So the Living Land can *never* have magic, for example.

>I think this 'intuitive sense' busisness is better handled by a world law:
>like the Law of Magic in Aysle

	Gotta disagree here, as it seems that from more that one worldbook
history that the various axiom levels have fluctuated in various cosms in 
their pasts. Example, the previously higher tech/magic levels in Tharkhold,
which are now lower due to the 'Spasm'. It seems more apt to think
that the cosm axiom levels represent a large area average local value, as
it has been said that even within a cosm, various regions may operate at
slightly higrer/lower values than that listed for the cosm. BTW, how
big is a cosm, I have a hard time creditting the notion that CE's axiom
levels hold for the rest of this universe. Hmmm. . . .or are they just
a local level in a global setting?


>-------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Those who speak, do not know   	       	Mark Cogan
> Those who know, do not speak"  	       	marcogan@student.anu.edu.au
-- 




===============================================================================
|  	There is no language but LISP, and EMACS is its prophet!              |
|                                                                             |
===============================================================================
|Donald Bachman - dabachma@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu                              |
===============================================================================

-- 




Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: rose@acf9.nyu.edu (David Rose)
Subject: Chases
Keywords: chase
Organization: New York University
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1992 01:49:06 GMT

  Well, I'm sitting here working on a skill reference sheet and discover
that I don't understand chases as well as I thought.

  1.  Suppose one person is chasing another on foot.  Is "Running"
      or "Maneuver" the appropriate skill to use?

  2.  Suppose someone in a car is chasing someone on foot.  Are
      there any adjustments?

  3.  Suppose one is flying and the other is not.  What about then?


--
David Rose
Courant Institute of Mathematical Sciences
251 Mercer Street, New York, NY 10012
rose@math12.cims.nyu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: bpostow@occs.cs.oberlin.edu (Brian Postow)
Subject: Re: Proposed Skills Info Template
Organization: Oberlin College Computer Science
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1992 04:34:52 GMT

it works, but I have one word:

WHY????????

it just doesn't seem very useful/to constricting...

--
Brian Postow :: The Pasta Knight - that noodle head in shiny armour
reachable at:
bpostow@occs.oberlin.edu
sbp2530@ocvaxa.cc.oberlin.edu		this space left unintentionally blank.
sbp2530@oberlin.bitnet.edu

Computer scientist do it backwards -- [Mathmatician's point of view]






Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: bpostow@occs.cs.oberlin.edu (Brian Postow)
Subject: Re: the working of axiom levels
Organization: Oberlin College Computer Science
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 20:39:49 GMT

in responce to Brandon Cope's tirade(s): [I decided not to put the
entire post in here...] there is a big problem in what you are saying.
You are assuming that CE is normal!!!! you are assuming that WE are
the CENTER OF THE INFINIVERSE. that is a very CE-centrist way of
looking at the infiniverse. Think of it in terms of relativeity and
you will better understand it. I agree that certainly the GM and
probably the players should understand why everything happens in a
given cosm [well, the players should understand why things happen in
THIER cosm...] here is a way of looking at it., look at it, as I said
above, relativistically.

I am not talking heavy Einstienien rel. [as Erik can tell you , I
don't hold much truck with that] just standard Rel.

ok. Imagine that you are, for starters, An Ayleish. You were born on
Ayle and came down the bridge for whatever reason... it isn't relevent
[you can make one up if you REALLY want to :-] ok. NOW how do you see
things??? to you, the laws of physics that we assume simply aren't
true. electrisity for instance can't possible exist. [you can't see
the observe the electrons [they can be observed, but not without other
electrical apperatus above your tech axiom so if YOU can't see them,
they don't exist] so electrisity CAN'T be the cause of lights going on
when you flip the switch etc..]. and all sorts of other "physical
laws" also can't exist in, as far as you are concerned, normal space.
Another example is that it seems REALLY wierd that everyone on this
new place has this REALLY STRANGE concept that the sun and stars DON'T
orbit the earth, infact the other way around. And "WHAT???" you say
"the earth is ROUND????????? Don't make me laugh!! look, does it LOOK
round to you??? NO, so don't be silly!!" the concept of a round earth,
is strange. it must be something wierd to this cosm or something!! 

I won't waste bandwidth with [no pun indended] eqiuvalent stories from
other cosms, although it might REALLY help if everyone chipped in and
contributed one. a little monologue by a character who was born not on
earth and came here, commenting on how REALLY wierd everything is
here, compared to how normal it is back home in... say Orrorsh, to
take an extreme example... I think it will really help our
understanding of the diff's between cosms.

--
Brian Postow :: The Pasta Knight - that noodle head in shiny armour
reachable at:
bpostow@occs.oberlin.edu
sbp2530@ocvaxa.cc.oberlin.edu		this space left unintentionally blank.
sbp2530@oberlin.bitnet.edu

Computer scientist do it backwards -- [Mathmatician's point of view]
From: rose@acf9.nyu.edu (David Rose)
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
Subject: Re: Chases
Keywords: chase
Date: 12 Apr 92 17:32:20 GMT
Organization: New York University

jogle@zia.aoc.nrao.edu (Jim Ogle (Ks. Jim)) writes:

>In article <rose.703043346@acf9> rose@acf9.nyu.edu (David Rose) writes:
>>
>>  Well, I'm sitting here working on a skill reference sheet and discover
>>that I don't understand chases as well as I thought.
>>
>>  1.  Suppose one person is chasing another on foot.  Is "Running"
>>      or "Maneuver" the appropriate skill to use?

>Running would be used to determing the 'chase total' at the beginning
>of each round.  As his action, a character could use Maneuver but it
>doesn't really affect the chase any (unless he maneuvers someone into
>falling down or whatever).
>...

   Whoa!  I thought that chasing/being chased WAS the character's action
for that round.  (I suppose you are using multi-action rules.)  Also,
I'm not sure I understand what effect using a maneuver would have
in a chase.  After all, the characters get to decide for themselves
(within certain limitations) where they will go.

>WEG is supposedly going to have a set of new chase rules in the
>upcoming Land Vehicles catalog.

  And the world goes round and round and round and round ...

--
David Rose
Courant Institute of Mathematical Sciences
251 Mercer Street, New York, NY 10012
rose@math12.cims.nyu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: tbrowne@jarthur.claremont.edu (T. Erik Browne)
Subject: Re: MY VIEW: Cyberpapacy
Organization: Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 20:43:54 GMT

In article <rose.702777247@acf9> rose@acf9.nyu.edu (David Rose) writes:
>  I would also need a supplier for the higher tech gear.  The obvious
>solution is Marketplace, but then their Tech axiom has to go up to 26.
>This doesn't bother me so much, as I wouldn't mind running a computer
>net in Nippon.  Of course, the Nipponese net would be very different
>in flavor from a net which caters to the needs of the Cyberpapacy.

There are two problems with this.  The first is that Nippon is trying to blend
in, and a tech of 26 would be just too obnoxious.  The second problem is that
this would create a stereotypical cyberpunk realm, and I prefer the system
that WEG came up with, putting the cyber in one realm and the punk in the
other.  If the Nippon tech level went up to 26, then a good gameplaying
reason for the existence of the Cyberpapacy would be gone.

I think it would be quite possible to have manufactuing facilities in Cyber-
France or Magna Veritas.  Perhaps putting them in a monastery setting, monks
building decks instead of copying books.

>--
>David Rose
>Courant Institute of Mathematical Sciences
>251 Mercer Street, New York, NY 10012
>rose@math12.cims.nyu.edu

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
T. Erik Browne                          | Harvey Mudd College
tbrowne@hmcvax.claremont.edu            | Claremont, CA  91711
tbrowne@jarthur.claremont.edu           | Best college west of Upland
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry.  No .sig today.
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: malloy@nprdc.navy.mil (Sean Malloy)
Subject: Re: Axioms
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 18:19:55 GMT

On Apr 14, 12:42pm, Chris Pearce wrote:
> > Because, during the same period of history, I can point to at least a dozen
> > _different_ cosmologies that were believed by different cultures. When
> > the Copernican cosmology replaced Aristotelian cosmology, that didn't
> > change how the Inca viewed the universe, nor did it affect the Zulu,
> > the Inuit, the Japanese, the Chinese, or any other culture that had no
> > cultural interaction with the Greeks. Whose belief rules, Chris? Does
> > the Songs of the Australian aborigines change because some group of
> > people thousands of miles away change their minds?
> 
> All of their beliefs rule. The universe actually differs for each culture.
> Axiom levels can be variable within a cosm.

They're all occupying the same cosm; there can be only one accurate
description of the cosm. Or does the universe transform itself as you
travel from culture to culture, the sun, moon and planets doing some
spastic gavotte to rearrange themselves into the patterns of the new
culture as you meet them? And why should _you_ be the magic focus
that determines the rearrangement of the cosm, instead of some other
traveller? The Tech axiom of Magna Verita is 26, but the residents
retain the mindset of the Middle Ages -- while the technology may work
of itself, the individual does not have the belief and understanding
to make it work for him.

-- 
random sig #109:
Sean Malloy                                  | This is a test. Had this been an
Navy Personnel Research & Development Center | actual emergency, we would have
San Diego, CA 92152-6800                     | fled in terror, and you would not
malloy@nprdc.navy.mil                        | have been informed.
From: cluther@morticia.cnns.unt.edu (Clay Luther)
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
Subject: Re: Quick Tharkhold Question
Date: 10 Apr 92 19:38:34 GMT
Organization: University of North Texas

soholt@aludra.usc.edu (Timothy Soholt) writes:

>I don't have the Thark sourcebook and I'm curious. What if any
>discussion of psionics is there in the sourcebook?

The discussion of Tharkhold psi was in one of the latest Infiniverses.  I have
included that information in the Torg Q&A stack, soon to be released once I get
the new FAQ from KJ.




-- 
Clay W. Luther                  cluther@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
System Manager                  Center for Network Neuroscience
University of North Texas       PO Box 5218 Denton, Texas 76203
817/565-3896,3472               aka. Malraux@GodNet (Bushashuru!)
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
Subject: Amerindian Medicine Bags, reasonable?
From: jberends@eagle.wesleyan.edu
Date: 6 Apr 92 12:21:50 EST
Organization: Wesleyan University

I have a PC who wants to play something of an Amerindian shaman.  She wants to
be able to make medicine bags, small puches of deerskin, herbs, and feathers,
which bestow some benefit on the bearer.  I figure that such a medicine bag is
some kind of religious article, and I was wondering if it makes sense for her
to use a bless miracle on the bag, which then provides the bearer with the
effects of the bless miracle for a certain time.  Or perhaps she only gives
them out to someone who is willing to take a blessing vow.

I'm very new at all this, and i'd appreciate any advice.

Thanks very much.

jan berends
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: Rick Jones <albert@crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu>
Subject: Re: the working of axiom levels
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 15:08:59 GMT

	Not really.  The axioms of a cosm are flexible, but they are
fixed without a Darkness Device.  Over time the axiom levels may change,
but in the Near Now, CE's axioms are set to whatever the rules say for
it (the only one I remeber is tech 23).  
	The axioms can either change naturally (on CE, the magic axiom 
used to be higher, but it fell as the tech axiom rose), or they can
be enforced (like Magna Veritas and France got a boost to their tech
axiom from the power of Malreax's DD).  
-- 
Rick Jones				Systems Support Center
albert@bcm.tmc.edu			Baylor College of Medicine
Voice: 713-798-7352			standard disclaimers apply
Thank you all for coming, I'll spend your money foolishly.-J.Buffett
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: Rick Jones <albert@crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Aztec Empire
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 22:13:15 GMT

> Oh, god, World Laws?
> SPOILERS FOR HIGH LORD OF EARTH, MAYBE.  SO AVERT YER EYES, OR SOMETHING.
> 
> 

> Does this mean that enough people actually 'lost' HLOE that they decided
> to put them together, or do ya think there was just an outcry for them?

	Yeah, it's hard to believe that PC's wouldn't figure it out,
considering the size of the 2x4 that they hit you with.  (Of course,
my players used an Idea card and divine intervention to get the 
idea, but sometimes they don't pay that close attention.)

> IMHO, the adventure itself was pretty poor, although the bits at the end
> involving the messing-with-the-Storm-Knights'-heads was nice.

	I liked it a lot.  Except for the obligatory fight at the end
of the second to last act, where they have to fight the Aztec critters
to get the magic stick.
	There was a good mix of action and thinking.  (and the 
scene in the basement with the necromancer and the cultists was
wunderbar)
-- 
Rick Jones				Systems Support Center
albert@bcm.tmc.edu			Baylor College of Medicine
Voice: 713-798-7352			standard disclaimers apply
GEEZ Mahn, I'm surrounded by amateurs!- Sebastian (the Little Mermaid)
From: albert@chain.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu (Rick Jones)
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
Subject: Re: Astec Empire
Date: 15 Apr 1992 03:19:38 GMT
Organization: Baylor College of Medicine

Spoilers for HLOE

	Yup, Kane was toasted pretty early in my game too. 
After dancing with the Werewolf and the Son of the Wind 
(and some careful sharpshooting by the Gunslinger), he was
pretty messed up.  Then the Son of the Wind used a throw
to throw him off the top of the pyramid.  Needless to 
say, the DD was less than pleased, and roasted him with a 
lightning bolt.  
	(Of course, they never did find the body later.
And doesn't Kane have Tharkhold written ALL over him?)
-- 
Rick Jones				Systems Support Center
albert@bcm.tmc.edu			Baylor College of Medicine
Voice: 713-798-7352			standard disclaimers apply
GEEZ Mahn, I'm surrounded by amateurs!- Sebastian (the Little Mermaid)
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: bpostow@occs.cs.oberlin.edu (Brian Postow)
Subject: Re: Proposed Skills Info Template
Organization: Oberlin College Computer Science
	<rose.703008528@acf9>
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1992 19:55:48 GMT

ok, but perhaps it could be a little less.... well... like a
programing language??? It still seems a little constricting. I would
be more inclined to do something like this more as a paragraph about
what each skill does... the modifiers are an interesting idea, if you
want to deal with them, but IMHO they go against the philosophy of the
Torg system which is make it as SIMPLE a system as possible and people
will have to Roleplay to make up for it. I think that if pay
attention, and think a little, this philosphy works. However, if you
want it a little more realistic [granted Torg is NOT very realistic in
many cases] then a few modifiers might not be so bad an idea, sort of
expanding the idea of cover/movement modifiers [Torg has those,
doesn't it?? I can't remember] to be developable for specific task.


Wait, lightbulb flash [I just had an idea] the modifications are not
neccessary. in combat cover mods are neccessary because the difficulty
is based on the target. However, in non-combat skill res, there is no
set difficulty number [if I remember correctly] the GM decides what
he/she/it beleives is a good difficulty. so, if you want to set a
general base difficulty and use those mods as a guideline, fine, but
that will have the same effect as a GM just saying "hmmm, well it's
kinda well hidden... beat a 14" or somesuch. This method also has the
advantage of people with subspec of skills. for example, I have a
character who can read faces really well, sort of a non-psichic Diana
Troi. He can say "I think that they are holding something back" and he
plays poker real well B-). The closest skill that We could find for
this was Evidence Analysis [if you have a better one, tell me, I
haven't played him yet, so I can still change] Now, I can say that he
is skiled in all parts of EA, it fits his character, but he doesn't
quite have a 3 in it [it is his tag skill] so... the GM can [This will
be the first that he will hear of it so ... B-)] make say reading
faces a much lower difficulty level than for other people, and say,
finding clues, much higher. well, maybe not MUCH, but you get the
point...


WHEW, well enough spew for now...

--
Brian Postow :: The Pasta Knight - that noodle head in shiny armour
reachable at:
bpostow@occs.oberlin.edu
sbp2530@ocvaxa.cc.oberlin.edu		this space left unintentionally blank.
sbp2530@oberlin.bitnet.edu

Computer scientist do it backwards -- [Mathmatician's point of view]






Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: Peter A. Schott <pact_ltd@uhura.cc.rochester.edu>
Subject: Re: How do axioms really work?
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 16:11:07 GMT

  The idea of people changing things because of their beliefs is what makes 
TORG work.  Therefore, if a large number of people believe in one thing, that is
reality.  When that large group starts to believe in another thing, reality
changes.  Core Earth reality can not be used for every cosm.  How would you 
explain Aysle where the world is a disk?  Would magic take the place of Physics?
Why?  Because the natives of Aysle believe in magic, not physics.  The basics
may be there, but the laws do not have to be the same.  Torg reflects the
beliefs of people in the way their world works.  Therefore, if there were a cosm
which was exactly identical to ours, except that they believed the universe 
revolved around their planet, the universe would turn around their planet.
(This is assuming, of course, that there is not a widespread belief in aliens.
That could lead to interesting questions concerning the aliens' beliefs.)
Anyway, stop trying to ascribe properties of our world to other cosms.  Things 
just aren't the same and can't be interpreted that way.  This is all IMO, of
course.  If you flame me, please don't include lots of past letters.  Just
referring to them is enough and the mail program here doesn't work too well for
reading large files like the ones with every letter of another's included.
	Have a day.	Pete Schott	:-|
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: Chris Pearce <cpearce@morticia.cnns.unt.edu>
Subject: Axioms
X-Gated-By: The Black Marble Wombat@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
X-Gated-From: torg mailing list
Organization: University of North Texas
X-Gatemail-Version: 1.0b
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 17:42:02 GMT

> Because, during the same period of history, I can point to at least a dozen
> _different_ cosmologies that were believed by different cultures. When
> the Copernican cosmology replaced Aristotelian cosmology, that didn't
> change how the Inca viewed the universe, nor did it affect the Zulu,
> the Inuit, the Japanese, the Chinese, or any other culture that had no
> cultural interaction with the Greeks. Whose belief rules, Chris? Does
> the Songs of the Australian aborigines change because some group of
> people thousands of miles away change their minds?

All of their beliefs rule. The universe actually differs for each culture.
Axiom levels can be variable within a cosm.

> Sean Malloy                                 | A child of five could understand

-- 
Chris Pearce -- cpearce@morticia.cnns.unt.edu
--
  "We live in an imperfect world, Baldric... If we lived in a perfect world,
   things like this wouldn't happen." (whacks Baldric on the back of the 
   head).
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
From: jogle@nrao.edu (Jim Ogle (Ks. Jim))
Subject: Re:  trick shots
Reply-To: jogle@nrao.edu
Organization: National Radio Astronomy Observatory
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 92 01:29:44 GMT

In article 0b952328182510@morticia, oakes@jupiter.nmt.edu (David Oakes) writes:

>i personally think that having one character (maybe two) go first,
>with the added multi action penalty (usually), a chance of failure
>(diff 20 standard, 25-30 dramatic, failure means NO action)
>is going to imbalance the action deck.
>(haste cards already exsist, and this wont give two actions a round...)

If you make things that difficult then no, it won't unbalance combat because
no one will be willing to try it (in a standard scene you almost always go first
anyway so no one will use it then and in a dramatic scene the risk of having
no action at all is too great).

>the expansion of the fast draw to other cosms was easy for me.
>i feel that Nippon and Nile deserve it, the 'Papacy maybe.

Uh uh, no way; not part of the cosm 'feel', especially not in Nippon or the 
Papacy.  The Nile, maybe.

>of the other cosms only Aysle will bother, and i feel
>that fast draw is not sufficient for a broad sword
>(a katana is the largest item to be fast drawn)

I don't like the idea of the same skill applying to drawing a pistol  and readying
a melee weapon for action.  Just because you can whip a pistol out of its holster
fast doesn't mean you can draw a sword and get into an attack stance quickly.

---
Kansas Jim (Jim Ogle, Torg guru)
jogle@nrao.edu (NRAO-VLBA, Socorro New Mexico)
"I'd be apathetic if I cared."


Newsgroups: alt.games.torg