Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 17:14:32 -0400 
From: "Joseph E. Beck" <jb8n+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: house-rules
	<70886@hydra.gatech.EDU>
Distribution: usa


From: ccoprdj@prism.gatech.EDU (Jorge Diaz)
>Well, gee, you might as well just say "A cleric can spank a mage.  Let's
>switch the mage and cleric attacks and hit dice."
Please tell me this is a joke.  A cleric can't spank a mage.  Win?
Perhaps.  But certainly not a sure thing (sleep, color spray,
fireball, etc. come to mind).

>You find a scroll with a spell that the mage already has in his
>book.  What do you do?  Give it to the thief!  Besides, the mage
>can *write* scrolls for the thief to use.
We don't usually have parties of 10th level plus people running
around.  And your mage must be really bored penning scrolls for the
thief (unless your GM is really lenient about writing scrolls).

>  Now, when you run into that 20th level drow cleric/mage, that's
>when the thief comes in and backstabs.
You overestimate the backstab (and underestimate the opposition).  At
5th level (again, we don't run around fighting 20th level people) you
get really mondo and do triple damage.  Let's say you're fighting a
7th level cleric/mage who has some henchman (or do you fight really
stupid opponents who wander around alone?).  Ok, how do you get behind
the cleric/mage?  Or do your opponents close their eyes and ignore
you?  Ok, somehow you've gotten behind the the cleric/mage and
backstab him.  Big shock:  he probably won't die.  Longsword = d8 * 3
+ X (where X is your bonus to damage).  Probably totalling around 17
points (and remember 5th level is the first level you can do this,
your multiplier won't increase until 9th level).  Probably not a fatal
blow, and now your in the midst of several angry opponents and will be
shredded.  


>Well, I've never played a thief before, but I'm hoping to play one in a
>campaign that a friend of mine will be starting soon (hint, hint, Matt ;-)
>and I'm really looking forward to it.  I think the thief offers the
>best role-playing possibilities.
Agreed, the thief is the most fun (you may reevaluate the thief's
power  after you've reached 6 or 7th level though).  


>You may as well argue that the thief isn't as effective in combat as
>a fighter.  No kidding!  That's not his job.
True, but the fighter isn't as useful as the cleric out of combat is
he? (so I'd hope t

>Now that depends, doesn't it?  A 4th level thief is much more effective
>than a 4th level mage in combat, and possibly even out of combat.
No.  A 4th level mage rocks in combat.  Consider:  4 1st level
fighters happen upon a first level (probably specialist) mage.  Who
will win?  (assuming no surprise, my money is on the mage).  


>Mage: Oh, I'll have my unseen servant set off the trap.
>
>GM:  OK, he does.  A block drops from the ceiling, and everyone takes 10d6
>     points of damage.
Thieves aren't that good at traps.  Why?  If a thief puts all his
points in 2 abilities he can get them to reasonable levels by 4th
level (imo).  So now what else can he do?  Not much.  Finding traps
counts as one of these, which is the other (open locks is the obvious
choice, but now you're useless at sneaking, backstabbing, etc.).  And
if you can't pick locks you get some amusing scenarios "Well, I've
disarmed the NUKE O DOOM but can't open the damn door!"

>A mage who spends all of his spell slots learning Unseen Servant, Knock,
>and other thief-imitating spells is pretty damn useless for anything else.
Unseen Servant is much more than a thief imitating spell.  Of course,
you have to have a reasonable idea of what you're going to be doing
ahead of time.

> But when you keep in mind that thieves aren't supposed
>to run into combat, they don't seem so weak.  I don't understand why
>you feel this need to turn thieves into fighters.
Think about it.  You're turning clerics into fighters.  Are clerics
powerful in combat without their fighting abilities?  Yes.  Are
clerics powerful outside of combat?  Yes, they tend to be influential
among peasants or can gain at least minimal aid from a temple.  And
they get spells that can gain information, aid in stealth, and help
cure a party, and spells that have combat uses.  Seems like a well
rounded class *and* they have fighting ability.

>Most of your points seem to be centered around combat. 
Well, half of my point was that thieves aren't that great outside of
combat because their thief abilities are dominated by magic (look at
the number of spells that impose *severe* penalties on thieving
abilities), and there chances of success are so low.  Clerics have a
*very* wide spell selection, are very useful out of combat, and are
almost as good as fighters.  

	joe