HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: Annual Xmas Depression; moan, weep, gnash
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 22:15:28 GMT

Mikjal and I are having a public conversation: (M=Mikjal, T=Tibor)

  =-=-=-=
T>I will point out that it is MUCH TOO LATE to change the laws of
T>Drachenwald. 

M>Nonsense.  While it may be too late to change the *initial* version, the
M>first King and Queen of Drachenwald could institute a wholesale
M>revision, if they wanted to.  (Note: I don't expect that to happen.)
M>No kingdom's laws are engraved by the finger of God in granite.

Too true.  Sorry.  I thought you were asking specifically about
changing the laws before Drachenwald becomes tradition.  Sorry.

  =-=-=-=
T>Corpora allows them
T>to bestow Grants, but they didn't mention anything about them.

M>Good for them!  Corpora may allow it, but it's a modern creation of the
M>SCA, with no basis in historical fact (not that the SCA has ever let
M>that stop anything before).

On the other hand, nothing is preventing a King or Queen from awarding
one.  I think, however, that the law should say so: No Grants of Arms,
and people who move in to Drachenwald with GoA's should be treated as
having AoA's in the Order of Precedence.

  =-=-=-=
M>Name the last time that the East Kindgom held a Crown tourney in other
M>than a double-elimination tree format.  During the 4 years that I lived
M>in Drachenwald, I think the format was not used on perhaps one
M>occassion, when there were only 5 contestants (round robin was used,
M>instead).  It may not be in the laws, but it's become "tradition since
M>the beginning of time".

You asked about the Law, Mikjal.  You are correct.  On a Bertramesque tangent,
what other forms of tournament are there, that meet a useful criteria. For
example, just as fair, completable in a finite time frame, fun to particpate
in...  A judged tournament is period, but how do you make it fair enough?
A round robin is fair, but how do you complete it in one day, with 80
fighter's present?

  =-=-=-=
T>The East Kingdom does not have standard oaths, so our former Principality
T>has never been burdened by them.  Hey, while your at it Mikjal, throw
T>off *your* yoke...

M>BTW, one of my projects as baronial herald for the upcoming year is to
M>replace all of the ceremonial oaths used by Three Rivers with ones based
M>on medieval models.  Slowly, the yoke is being removed...

Excellent, I am impressed.  Does anyone have evidence that prewritten
ceremonial oaths are more or less period that individualistic oaths?
Oh, where is Sheik Hossein when we need him (I'm sending him a copy of
this question in email...)  I just wanna know which is more authentic:
I have no idea.  As usual, I'll bet the answer is "Where and when are
you asking about?".

	Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
[I'm just showin' you my opinions: this ain't a gift]
From: kleber@husc11.harvard.edu (Gwydden)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Heraldic questions...
Date: 25 Dec 92 22:26:47 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc.kleber.725322407


Quoth Tadhg, in respose to Lady Sycamore:

 "BG> Different areas had
 "BG> different  flavors to their heraldic display. If a person
 "BG> has a Hungarian persona, and likes the heraldry of their
 "BG> chosen country/period then what is the basis for the CoA to
 "BG> state that it was just a fashion and not a general practice.

> Because this *isn't* Hungary, this is Ansteorra, or the East, or wherever;  
> in essence, because this isn't Hungary, it's the SCA, and the SCA (like  
> Hungary and every other mundane jurisdiction) has developed its own  
> more-or-less consistent style that doesn't include everything that  
> everyone else is doing.

I like this way of looking at things a lot, actually; it works well in
a lot of contexts-- why we chose kings by tournament every n months,
for example.  The SCA becomes its own society, based on pre-17th-c 
culture.  But the nice thing about that society is that it isn't fixed,
that individuals can easily change it-- get something to happen three 
times, and you've created a sacred tradition, after all-- and so if the
rules for heraldry change, then people will conform to the new rules, 
and that will change what the SCA's heraldic style looks like.  Is
there anything wrong with that?

Tadhg later says that his heraldic preferences are "south of the
Trent, north of the Loire, west of the Rhine, 1100-1400", though.
Does that mean you think the SCA should intentionally steer its own 
heraldic style to be like this, or that's just where your
aesthetic ideals lie?

--Gwydden Lawen                           I don't have an overactive
  Borough of Duncharloch, Carolingia      imagination... I have an
--kleber@husc.harvard.edu                 underactive reality...  --EG
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: pvanheus@frodo.cs.uct.ac.za (P A van Heusden)
Subject: Techniques used in Swordmaking?
Summary: What methods do you use for making swords?
Keywords: swords
Organization: Computer Science Department, University of Cape Town
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 12:53:08 GMT

I have some questions about swordmaking from a friend. If someone could
please answer these (email, please), I'd be immensely grateful.

1) Do you forge using iron ore and forges, pattern welding and Damascus
techniques, etc. ie. The old, authentic way, OR do you grind blades from
mild or high carbon steels or whatever?

2) Specifically, what steels are used for different blades. What hardening/
tempering processes are used for which blades?

3) What hardness blades results? Could you please rate: Vickers hardness test,
Brinnel hardness or Rockwell hardness.

4) When making curved blades, eg. scimitars, sabres, do you get the curve 
through - cooling? - forging? and if the curve is made through the bending
or whatever of modern steels, how does this effect the metal structure, 
hardness, etc.

5) What are the dimensions and thicknesses of the resulting blades.

I am interested in the following swords: gladius, short seax, 13th-16th cent. 
swords, rapiers, sabres, scimitars.

Ok. Back to the poster for some final comments: I do not know what half of
these questions mean, so the phrasing may be off. Please allow for some
leeway in terms of meaning....

Thanks, 
Peter

--
*******************************************************************************
Peter van Heusden              "The extreme always makes an impression"
CS2, UCT, Cape Town, RSA             J.D. - Lethal Attraction 
pvanheus@frodo.cs.uct.ac.za
From: robear@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Jay Michael)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Charlemange's Crowning
Date: 26 Dec 92 10:33:19 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX

Greetings Lords and Ladies of the Rialto,  I have exciting news from 
across the Mists of Time.

Just today, aye verily on Christmas day, I was a celebrant of a court
of magnanimous proportions!  Gathered were all the nobles and gentry of
Charlemange's court, to witness the crowning of our dear King, Charles
the Great, by Pope Leo III himself!  I was just able to witness the austere
King actually recieve the crown and title of Emperor from the Pope's very
hands.  There was great livery, a joy and celebration felt by all.  The
post revel was unmatched by any I had experienced afore . . . truly
a great romp with with to close the year of eight hundred anno domini . . .

	=)

(In all actuality, I think it would be best and most convient to simply 
figure that my persona's year is the mundane year minus 1200 years . . .
keep the age the same, I have a good entry point and at least 20 years
left on Charlemange's rule . . . and also about eight years before I could
actually post something like that then.  But, hey, I'm impatient, and we're
all used to time travelling anyway ;)

Aelfgar von Echternach
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: HELP! name searching.
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 18:58:57 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

> Does anyone out there have suggestions on sources for celtic names?
> Particularly Welsh.....

The two best (and reasonably accessible) books that I know are:

Heini Gruffudd, Welsh Personal Names, Y Lolfa, 1980.

The standard SCA source on Welsh given names, this short book is
essentially a baby-name book.  When the author gives a period citation for
a name, it is fine.  When he gives no citation, or a post-medieval
citation, the name is usually not acceptable.  Available in some libraries.
Many SCA heralds have copies.

Morgan, T.J., and Prys Morgan, Welsh Surnames, University of Wales Press,
1985.  

One of the finest works available on Welsh surnames.  The introduction
discusses Welsh naming in great detail, and makes excellent reading.  Each
entry includes many period citations of variant forms, and traces each name
back to its origins.  A little difficult to find, but becoming more
important in College of Arms research.  Many senior heralds have or can
find a copy.

Beyond these books, my recommendation is to read Welsh history and/or
literature and choose a name from some human character that you find.  If
you read the Mabinogion, be careful: Much of it is mythology, many of the
characters are non-human or super-human, and some of their names are not
appropriate for our re-creation.  Modern historical literature can also be
a useful source, but much of it is poorly researched.  I can recommend the
Brother Cadfeal series and the Brothers of Gwynedd Quartet (a novelization
of the life of Llewelyn, the last independent Prince of Wales), all by
Ellis Peters/Elizabeth Partager (two pen names for the same person).  The
names in those books are historically correct.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com


From: Joe.Bethancourt@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Joe Bethancourt)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Corpora is available via FTP
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 16:38:28 GMT

Lord Miklos and I have finally made Corpora available for
FTP.  It is on his machine at bransle.ucs.mun.ca in the
/pub/sca/corpora directory.  Please do not mob his machine
all at once.

If you can't use FTP at your site, please check with an FTP
mail server.  If that doesn't help you, check with a local
system administrator or knowledgable user.  If all else
fails, I can, in fact, email it, but I'd rather work at
work, than spend all my time sending files.  Please, therefore,
do as much of your own homework as you can, before asking me
for emailed copies.

	Lord Tibor of Rock Valley (at last I can die a happy man)
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
[I'm just showin' you my opinions: this ain't a gift]
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: Primitive FireArms
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 21:30:01 GMT

T. Archer wrote:
  I was under the impression that we drew the line a what was period and what 
  was not.  In fact, it was brutally beaten into my head in this forum that If 
  It's Not Period, It Is An Abhomination Unto Our Sight, And Should Not Be 
  Practiced, As It Has No Place In The SCA.  If firearms are period, they 
  should be permitted, mundane laws withstanding, of course.

We do not practice all that is period, neither is all that we practice.
The lessons you should have learned are several: one is that doing things
authentically is generally considered good, and the second is that anyone
will discuss anything on the Rialto... (:-)

My point was raised in the context of Dan's question.  I thought he was
asking about SCA-wide rules or standards for period firearm recreation.
I have no problem with your stance of "leave it local", but it does not
answer his discussion.

  --

I (Tibor) wrote:
  1. For many folks, especially the gentles who inhabit the crowded cities
  of the Northeast US, a gun is a scary object, a bugaboo, a taboo.

T. Archer answered:
  Why?  [ Plus a list of reasons why this shouldn't be so. ]

I truly do not desire to bring pro- versus anti- gun position discussions
into the Rialto, for they do not belong.  I ask you to stipulate two things,
since I believe them to be true: One, that there are places where this is
very often the case, and two, you would like these decent and nice people
anyway (that is, they are not raving lunatics, just people with different
conceptions of the truth).

  --

I wrote:
  How can we address their needs, as well?

T. Archer answered:
  The same way we address the needs of people who want english country dances, 
  recurve bows, or color-on-color blazons.  Insult, harass, and ignore them '
  till they go away.

May all the gods save us from such learned discourse.  Is there no reasoning,
then?

  --

  If we were to introduce period firearms, this would not be an issue.  For 
  safety reasons, the range would have to be so far from the main encampement 
  that the periodic black powder reports would be less intrusive than the 
  interstate traffic at the pensic wars.  If it were closer, it would be 
  unsafe.

Which would not prevent sound, transport of weapons, discussion of todays
shooting, prizes being awarded in court, and so forth.  I'm afraid I'd
only believe this if your answer was "It was happening at Pennsic this
year, didn't you know?" (:-)  And, that doesn't answer my question,
in any case.

	Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
[I'm just showin' you my opinions: this ain't a gift]
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr)
Subject: Re: Fighting in crown: a thought
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 92 14:38:02 GMT
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta

In article <1992Dec22.011342.9994@epas.toronto.edu> nusbache@epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher) writes:
>PA = Pavao Aaron
>AN = Aryk Nusbacher
>
>PA> I ... aspire to fight in Crown someday and if (on the off-chance) I win,
>PA> I have no desire to become king.
>
>AN> So why do you aspire to fight in Crown?
>
>PA>	The Crowne Lists represents the epitome of fighting skill.  To be 
>PA> recommended to fight at Crown is a high honour, indeed.
>PA> It is a goal for which
>PA> to strive.
>
>Why is the crown list the apogee of fighting skill?  Because it's
>filled with hot stick jocks, or because it's filled with people
>fighting to make the person who inspires them the Queen of Love and
>Beauty?  Fighting crown without wanting to be king (and make one's
>inspiration queen) is like washing your feet with your socks on.
>
>It's no honour if you're just in it for a good few bouts, or for the
>glory of the invitation.

A common perception among fighters in An Tir is that many of the
truly good fighters won't enter crown, because they don't want
to be king. They *do* enter the Egil Skallagrimmson Memorial 
tourney, and the Summer coronation Kingdom Champion tourney.

I do not share this perception, but only because I have nt fought
in enough *really* big tournies to have earned the right to an
opinion.

I will say from reading the rolls of who entered that Coronation
often seems to be stiffer competition than Crown.

I don't think that's a bad thing...The man or woman who becomes
King or Queen can really screw some things up for a bunch of
people. It's just as well if the pure "stick jocks" (and I feel
that *only* a fighter has the right to use that term;-)) have
somewhere else to showcase their skills.

Me, I wanna be King;-)

Carolus Malvoix
Montengarde An Tir
Not the king
-- 
Within the span of the last few weeks I have heard elements of
separate threads which, in that they have been conjoined in time,
struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing
gourd. --Unknown net.person
From: robear@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Jay Michael)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: On the Nature of Armor ...
Date: 25 Dec 92 08:59:42 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX

Tom Perigrin writes:
>I write with a heavy heart.  This topic and the discussion has lost all
>semblence of joy to me.  I have received email from more than one person
>that can only be called hateful.  I have been told that I am a clueless 

Ach!  I find this news rather distressing--I don't relish the idea of 
trying to win an argument by demoralizing the opponent, were that the mailer's
intent.  One also should be careful in disagreeing over e-mail, as the 
words, without personal expression to back them, could drip more venom than
intended.  I for one have read Tom's postings with interest, even if I 
haven't agreed with some of what he has said.

Here in Austin (I'm new to this barony, and haven't seen the name written
down so that I could hazard a guess at it's spelling, I think it's Welsh . . .)
We have within our company an excellent armorer (by the name of Conner), who
helps direct our interests towards an authentic look, and works mainly with
sheet steel.  He is able so supply period looking arms, legs, helmets, 
even body pieces (for an appropriate cost, of course).  This is excellent
for later personas wanting the plate look.  However-we have usually been
short on body armor.  Meaning, it isn't used much.  While wearing a tabard,
the body armor isn't missed much either.  I believe the reason for this
is that for most of the year, fighting in full armor would be too unbearably
_hot_!!!  On the other hand, this means that we aren't wearing full period
armor, and aren't  learning about how the mundane medievalist had to deal
with body armor.  This also means that chainmail seems to be shunned like the
plague . . . not only is it heavy and not as effective as desired, it too is
hot, and makes fighting in the sun unbearable.  So what we usually end up with
is a bunch of fighters wearing an armored kidney belt and nothing else for the
body (this also, indirectly, speeds their learning how not to get hit ;).
The alternative is to make body armor that is lighter in weight, and perhaps
is better ventilated than true period armor.  Since my persona would not
have worn a tabard, I'm planning on making a hauberk of aliminum scales.  It
will essentially look period, and I won't have to suffer and endure wearing
a heavy steel coat.
	One aside:  If you _buy_ your armor from an armorer, you're not
learning anything about construction that way.  So which would be better,
to buy a suit out of period materials and make, or to make your own suit
out of non period materials but in a period make? ;).  I suppose at this
point the best you could do is either watch it being made, or go to a
meuseum . . . .

Aelfgar von Echternach
From: bhw@aifh.ed.ac.uk (Barbara H. Webb)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Fighting in crown: a thought
Date: 22 Dec 92 14:47:13 GMT
Reply-To: bhw@aisb.ed.ac.uk (Barbara H. Webb)
Organization: Dept AI, Edinburgh University, Scotland

In article <1992Dec21.193841.20363@epas.toronto.edu> nusbache@epas.utoronto.ca
(Aryk Nusbacher) writes:

>Why on earth would you want to open the possibility of becoming SCA
>royalty to non-fighting couples?

I assume that's a rhetorical question?

I said, if I entered Crown tournament
>>it would be as Padraigh fighting to put Caitlin and her consort on the throne. 
>
>You could look at it that way.  More to the point, it's YOU, fighting
>to put YOUR consort and YOURSELF on the throne.  Whether you call
>yourself Patrick or Caitlin or Tiresias.

Well, no, not really. Barbara Webb, AI research student, has no
particular wish to be on the throne. I realise that this is getting into
tricky questions of "what's in a persona?" and I wouldn't presume to
tell anyone else that they should have one (or more), but Padraigh and
Caitlin are different people as far as the `atmosphere' of an SCA event
is concerned. It's not just a name change. In the unlikely event of my
winning, I would want the ceremony to recognise the distinction.

>SCA rules don't bind persona.  You can win as
>Padraig, be crowned as Padraig, change your name to Barbara when you
>host Crown Tournament, then to Olav in time for Christmas.

Yes, I realise that it's unlikely to actually be a problem given that
the rules don't make reference to persona. Perhaps my question was more
along the lines of "would you mind seeing the situation handled this
way" (if you like, pretending that Padraigh was fighting as champion for
Caitlin and consort) and if not, "would you mind someone fighting as 
champion for someone else and consort?" 

Caitlin de Courcy
From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Are you a Rialto Geek?
Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1993 16:13:39

    Yaakov wrote:

 HF> Awhile ago, someone posted a 'heraldry geek' quiz.  I thought up
 HF> this 'Rialto geek' quiz at about the same time, but didn't have time
 HF> to post it until now.

 HF> 1) What is the SSS?
 HF>  Bonus point for each member you can name.

    Sodality of the Sentinels of the Stargate. William of Weyr and William
    of Weyr.

 HF> 2) What is Soapy?  Who discovered/invented Soapy?

    Proctor & Gamble, before they changed their trademark.

 HF> 3) What is the name of the 'Rialto Household'?

    Pigs in Space? (That's just a guess...)

 HF> 4) Why is it the Rialto?

    Because "GENCON" was taken.

 HF> 5) Why do some old-timers still refer to the 'fisher folk' of the
 HF> Rialto?

    Seafood fetish.


 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: Craig.Vaughan@p365.f342.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Craig Vaughan)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Raleigh area SCA groups - Any contacts??
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 19:18:40 -0500

Greetings from Griffith ap Morgan ap Griffith! 

  JS> I will soon be making an 8 month pilgrimage to the area mundanly known
  JS> as North Carolina or more specifically the great city known as
  JS> Raleigh.  I was wondering if the SCA is active down there or not? From
  JS> the SCA lists recently posted I know the name of an SCA group in
  JS> Raleigh as Elvegast. I would like to know if this group is fairly
  JS> active as since I'll be new to the area I'd like to meet some people
  JS> who in a way are already friends.  Since I also love to fight I would
  JS> like to know how active any fighters there are so I can make plans
  JS> weather or not to bring my 80 or so pounds or armour in my small car.
 
As a note, that part of North Carolina is in the Barony of Windmasters' Hill
which is a large and active group. There are 5 cantons in addition to Elvegast
in the barony so that indicates a good level of interest in the general area.

Checking in the December Acorn (the Atlantia Kingdom newsletter), I count at
least 5 events in that part of North Carolina during January through April
including the Kingdom 12th Night, a Kingdom war practice, etc., so you should
find plenty to do.

The Seneschal of the Barony of Windmasters' Hill is Lord Asbjorn Berbeinn (Brett
Kelly, Rt. 7 Box 19, Pittsboro, NC 27312; (919) 542-4481). The Seneschal of the
Canton of Elvegast is Lord Tankred Bras-de-Fer (James Springle, 2320 Lawrence
Dr., Raleigh NC 27603; (919) 834-3054). If you would contact either of these
good gentles I am sure that they can provide you with more information about
activities in the area.

Yours in Service,

Griffith ap Morgan ap Griffith
Baronial Pursuivant,
Barony of Ponte Alto,
Kingdom of Atlantia


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca