HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ekl@fics.uucp
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flames toasting MS's CD-ROM choice
Date: 27 Aug 92 02:08:54 GMT
Organization: Kvam data as

In article <+0anwf=@lynx.unm.edu> jfreter@triton.unm.edu (The Myth) writes:
>I don't really see the point of some people's bitching at Microsoft just 
>because they chose to release a PRE-BETA (in otherwords, NOT THE FINAL
>VERSION) of NT on CD only.  Microsoft has not said that they will only
>ship NT (shrinkwrapped) on CD format.  They also have not said that they
>will support other versions.  When they make the decision one way or the
>other, then that is the time to complain.
>
>---
>Not affiliated with Microsoft or any other software/hardware firm.  I'm
>just an escapee from the asylum.

Alistair, would you comment on this? I have heard microsoft employees in
europe say that NT will only ship on CD-ROM. So, are there any facts you
could give us. I and others are very interested in this.

Eirk
From: jmmadiso@indyvax.iupui.edu
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: <None>
Date: 27 Aug 92 17:29:48 -0500

i thought that CD-ROMs were just ROM?
i don't think that they're the next _it_ 4 computers.
-just my opinion.
give me a confirmation on the first, i'm just
a comp sci student.
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: gregde@microsoft.com (Greg Demichillie)
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: 27 Aug 92 17:15:08 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation
Distribution: na

In article <1992Aug25.195548.13017@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>In <1992Aug20.162238.5023@microsoft.com> gregde@microsoft.com (Greg Demichillie) writes:
>
>
>>But tape really sucks if your goal is to only install parts of the
>>system.  With a CD, I can just leave the parts I don't use frequently
>>on the CD.  When I need them I just stick the CD in the drive and
>>browse the information directly from the CD.  With tape, I have to
>>free up hard disk space, restore the files I'm interested in, look
>>at them and then delete them again (only to discover that I really
>>needed a different file after all.) 
>
>Valid points, but we're talking about an SDK here.  Are there really
>all those parts that you don't really need?

Sure there are!  How about doc files, help databases, sample code
etc..  All these are things that I wouldn't use every day.  But sure
would like to be able to acces them without copying them to my hard disk!


>>>Has anyone noticed how all the people making excuses for this policy
>>>are from Microsoft?
>
>>Has anyone noticed that Fred seems to be the only one making a lot of
>>noise about this? 
>
>Now THERE is the MS we all know and love!  Fine, they can condemn me
>for my attitude and they can condemn Microsoft for yours.  It is the
>Microsoft attitude that is the POINT, after all.  It's what this whole
>episode has been symptomatic of.

No, this debate started with the question (and I think it's a fair
question):  Should MS have distributed the NT-SDK on CD-ROM.  YOU
are the one who turned into a personal crusade against Microsoft.  YOU
are the one who characterized our defending the policy as "making excuses."

-Greg


-- 
Greg DeMichillie          
gregde@microsoft.com      -- All opinions are mine, not Microsoft's -- 
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 19:57:21 GMT

In <1992Aug20.163351.5384@microsoft.com> gregde@microsoft.com (Greg Demichillie) writes:

>I just found a new utility on my system.  It's called FRED.EXE and it
>searches an input file and if it finds the text "CD" or "CD-ROM" it outputs
>200 lines of ranting and raving, mostly consisting of things like:

>I CAN'T WRITE TO A FRIGGING CD-ROM


>Sounds like a good addition to PETE.EXE!

>-Greg


See what I mean about the Microsoftie attitude?  Runs all the way up
to their corporate policy.  But daring to complain is 'ranting and
raving'. 

I used to think the guy with the .sig about MicroBorg was funny -- I
come more and more to think he is ACCURATE.


-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: philipla@microsoft.com (Phil Lafornara)
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: 27 Aug 92 16:56:52 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation
Distribution: na

In article <1992Aug25.185228.10773@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>
>Gee, how incredibly silly.  I figure if you want to develop for the
>Mac you should expect to buy one.  If you want to develop for CD-ROM,
>you should expect to buy one.  But THERE IS NO REASON TO EXPECT TO
>NEED TO BUY A CD-ROM TO DEVELOP SOFTWARE FOR A PC WHICH DOESN'T
>INCLUDE A CD-ROM.

     This is starting to look really familiar - would it be possible,
perhaps, to drop this Thread From Hell and get on with our lives?
Fred, you've made it quite clear that you don't want to buy a CD-ROM.
Everyone else, you've made it clear that you will buy one if
you feel it gives you sufficient benefit.  No one is going to change
anyone else's mind, and nothing new has been said in several days.


					-Phil

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phil Lafornara         				1 Microsoft Way         
philipla@microsoft.com				Redmond, WA 98052-6399 
Note:  Microsoft doesn't even _know_ that these are my opinions. So there.
From: neilp@cs.hw.ac.uk (Neil Postlethwaite)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: program manager lacks!
Date: 28 Aug 92 09:38:15 GMT
Organization: Dept of Computer Science, Heriot-Watt University, Scotland

In article <1992Aug27.180950.165@indyvax.iupui.edu> jmmadiso@indyvax.iupui.edu writes:
>to one of you microsoft people...
>what's up with the prog manager... why can't you perform file
>operations from there?  did you not think of that or you just didn't
>know how or will it be there in the next release? (i'm not even THINKING about
>purchasing NT, i'm just a student) please do something about this.
>

Beacuse Windows is so dense, it needs loads of extra config info from win.ini
which means stuff won't work optimally from the ok(ish) file manager. Thus
the Program Manager was created which is entirely seperate from the file one.

This twin way of working is one of my mayor gripes about Windows. It
is a very crap way of going about things and helps keep data files hidden
away from applications. 

On the other side of the fence on the Mac, the file *is* the application or data
double-click and run.

Neil

P.S. Take a look in your /windows directory. What a disgusting mess, no wonder
     windows is such a nightmare to run.
From: neilp@cs.hw.ac.uk (Neil Postlethwaite)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: program manager lacks!
Date: 29 Aug 92 18:58:55 GMT
Organization: Dept of Computer Science, Heriot-Watt University, Scotland

In article <1992Aug28.153315.22935@nosc.mil> discar@nosc.mil (Joe Discar) writes:
>
>If Apple would stop suing everybody that came out with an OS that had a
>Mac look and feel, I am sure that Windows would have this feature as well (as
>it is, Apple was actually suing Microsoft for OVERLAPPING WINDOWS for crissake!)


We'll see what the IBM/Apple PowerPC/PINK/RISC OS thingy-vapourware brings
in a couple of years.

>>P.S. Take a look in your /windows directory. What a disgusting mess, no wonder
>>     windows is such a nightmare to run.
>
>Take a look at an Apple's System folder....
>

System 7 System directory is tidier than older ones. Though at least all
your applications aren't in their aswell as config, OS prog,.......

Neil
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 19:46:42 GMT

In <1992Aug20.033259.2424@catfish.az05.bull.com> pap@tempel.az05.bull.com (Pierre Perret) writes:

>In article <1992Aug19.202912.3110@mksol.dseg.ti.com>, mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>|> In <18AUG199220345466@rosie.uh.edu> st1g9@rosie.uh.edu (Lee Preimesberger) writes:
>|> >	Walk into your local college campus CS department with your CD's,
>|> >tapes, and $50.  Within ten minutes you'll find someone willing to copy it
>|> >over for you.  Really, Fred...these things aren't in Sanskrit! :-)
>|> 
>|> Really?  This is news to me.  I find it particularly unlikely, since
>|> it would require me to find someone who had both a supported CD-ROM
>|> and the same type of tape drive that I have.  Cute rhetoric, though.
>|> Get back to me when you're out here in the real world.

>1. copying the NT CD ROM onto a Colorado Jumbo tape on a friend's system
>is exactly what I did to install NT on my system that does not have a CD
>drive, but does have a QIC-80 drive. The NT CD can be read on any system
>that has a CD drive supporting the ISO format. It is only for the
>install under NT that you need the drive+adapter combo to be supported
>by NT. I remember seeing a message by a fellow who printed the docs from
>the CD using a SUN station. How's that for real world?

How's that for real expensive?  

>2. It is really funny to see you arguing about the unlikeliness of finding
>a tape drive compatible with your own, since in earlier postings, you
>were claiming that vendors should offer software on tape. Pray tell,
>how many tape formats should they support to avoid pissing off people
>like you?

Go back and read it again, Pierre.  The unliklihood of finding someone
with BOTH the tape and CD-ROM, which is what it would take to do what
was suggested.

[Gee, I've become a 'people like you'.  Well, people like you are so
busy buying whatever the Microsoft Marketroids want to sell to you and
paroting their every word that I'm surprised they didn't tell you to
call a 900 number to get it via download!]


-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 11:21:18 EDT
From: <F0O@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
Subject: Re: Flames toasting MS's CD-ROM choice

In article <+0anwf=@lynx.unm.edu>, jfreter@triton.unm.edu (The Myth) says:

>I don't really see the point of some people's bitching at Microsoft just
>because they chose to release a PRE-BETA (in otherwords, NOT THE FINAL
>VERSION) of NT on CD only.  Microsoft has not said that they will only
>ship NT (shrinkwrapped) on CD format.  They also have not said that they
>will support other versions.  When they make the decision one way or the
>other, then that is the time to complain.

   Quite right.  I remember hearing somewhere they will ship the final
version on disks.  I think alot of people are complaining simply because
they like to put down Microsoft every chance they get.  To each his own,
I guess.

                                                              [Tim]
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: discar@nosc.mil (Joe Discar)
Subject: Re: Microsoft bashing (was: Re: Some more misconceptions...)
Organization: Naval Ocean Systems Center, San Diego
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 20:41:15 GMT

In article <92246.153543ANDY@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> Andrew T. Robinson <ANDY@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> writes:
>No one asked, but here are my opinions of Microsoft:
>
>Microsoft is basically a corporate-sized ego with marketing muscle.  The
>debacle between IBM and MS with OS/2 was as far as I've ever been able to
>tell entirely an outgrowth of MS' greed, and not because there were
>technical issues that couldn't be resolved with stodgy old IBM.

Is this the new americanism?  "Company X doesn't do things my way, so they
must be low-life, greedy, scum"?  WE DON'T KNOW WHAT WENT ON BETWEEN
IBM AND MICROSOFT (at least *I* don't).  Sure we've read some 
(conflicting) stories that attempt to explain the rift between the two
companies... but none of the ones I've read were written by people
WHO WERE THERE (well, maybe one, and he just seemed sad it happened--
not angry).

Face it, ALL for-profit companies are in business FOR PROFIT.  That doesn't
make them greedy and it doesn't make them egotistical--nor does it make
them bullies (unless they actually go out and hurt people and companies).
I have NOT consistently seen this regarding Microsoft or IBM... so, IMHO,
it is invalid to flame either of those companies.

Sure, MS has done some things I haven't agreed with.  But in the 70's and
late 80's IBM has done things I didn't like as well.  They do things for
profit.  It is unfair to lambast Microsoft because they seem to be better
at making a profit than others.

Just my opinion.

-> Joe <-



Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: discar@nosc.mil (Joe Discar)
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Organization: Naval Ocean Systems Center, San Diego
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 16:29:17 GMT

In article <1992Aug25.195721.13124@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>>Sounds like a good addition to PETE.EXE!
>
>>-Greg
>
>
>See what I mean about the Microsoftie attitude?  Runs all the way up
>to their corporate policy.  But daring to complain is 'ranting and
>raving'. 
>
>I used to think the guy with the .sig about MicroBorg was funny -- I
>come more and more to think he is ACCURATE.
>
>

Fred,  I want to be the first to apologize for "attacking" you.  I am beginning
to see that your arguments are simply that YOU don't want to buy a CD drive
because YOU don't think it's useful (which, then, leads to the conclusion that
you don't particularly see the pre-release NT/SDK useful enough to overcome
your decision not to buy a CD drive).

I can also see that all of our messages can appear to be trying to force you
to buy a CD-ROM drive... which just isn't the case--but it CAN appear that
way.  Mind you, nobody is forcing you to buy a CD drive...

Whether or not you buy a CD-ROM drive, there are thousands who do.  There are
many people who find this technology useful, despite its drawbacks--just as
I am sure there are many people who don't think it's worth the price, as
well.  But just because the Amish find that certain technologies are not
all that useful, doesn't stop the technology from catching on.

You, of course, are free to live with the paranoical feeling that Microsoft
is forcing its will upon us sheep... but I have worse problems to worry 
about (like who will be elected for President, and where our country is
heading).

Peace.

-> Joe <-


Xref: sparky comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy:2075 comp.os.os2.advocacy:4891
From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: 2 Sep 92 15:18:22 GMT
Article-I.D.: mksol.1992Sep2.151822.6429
Distribution: na
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc

In <1992Aug27.171508.8940@microsoft.com> gregde@microsoft.com (Greg Demichillie) writes:


>No, this debate started with the question (and I think it's a fair
>question):  Should MS have distributed the NT-SDK on CD-ROM.  YOU
>are the one who turned into a personal crusade against Microsoft.  YOU
>are the one who characterized our defending the policy as "making excuses."

Well, have you considered that perhaps I view what happened that way
because the FIRST thing that happened when this issue got raised was
that 4 people from Microsoft started getting in my face about it?  No,
I thought not.

You know, it's really funny.  Criticizing Microsoft seems to be a
sure-fire way to get deluged with personal attacks, both in public and
in private.  Not to say that everyone from MS responded that way (they
didn't), but there were enough MS people/boosters doing it to
reinforce every bad impression I've ever heard of Microsoft.


-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
From: petesk@microsoft.com (Pete Skelly)
Subject: Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT
Date: 21 Aug 92 22:34:08 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation
Distribution: na

In article <1992Aug19.193705.866@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>
>>There's all kind of aspects to consider when you look at this.  CD-ROM for 
>>software distribution ONLY is not the cheapest (for a drive anyway).  But look
>>at the other things you can do with it.  MS will be shipping a developer's
>>CD with 30,000-40,000 pages of information on it.  Reading the data in that
>>database in a random-access manor would be insufferable via tape.
>
>But I don't DO those other things.  Why should a software developer
>have to buy a CD-ROM drive, then?  Other than that Microsoft thinks he
>should, of course.
>

So, Fred, you seem to want the NTSDK on floppy.  What would that be for
the machine resident part, about 40-70 disks.  And you also want paper docs.
Well, that'd be be about 30 pounds of docs also.  Oh, and throw in another
pile of 20 or so disks for online help.  You may not want it, but other might.

Disks + duplication + labeling + packaging = $100
(these are estimates)
Documentation printing, binding, etc       = $300
Shipping (40 lbs)                          = $ 20

(again, these are all estimates).

That comes to a whopping $420 for the SDK in
just production costs.  Put a bit on the top to
cover legal, admin, etc costs and we'll say $500.

So, you'd rather pay $500 to get a floppy instalation,

than pay $69 + shipping, and a $350 CDROM and controller.

Oh, I'm sorry, this logical line of argument won't work with
you 'cause you think it's your right as customer to have everything
handed to you on a silver platter.

Well, It's MS's right to sell anything see's as a good thing to sell,
and it's your right as a customer to buy what MS is selling if you want.

It's also your right to complain, as you have been doing.  However, in this
issue, it's been pointed out that you are very probably incorrect in most
of your complaints, as 10,000 people have already been more than happy
to buy the NTSDK on CDROM.

petesk@microsoft.com
My Opinions...are that I'm tired of this guy complaining about CDROM.

Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: bill@snoopy (Bill Poitras)
Subject: CD-ROM and NT (was Re: Some more misconceptions regarding OS/2 and NT)
Reply-To: bill@msi.com
Organization: Molecular Simulations, Inc.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 02:32:35 GMT

fred j mccall 575-3539 (mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com) wrote:
: In <1992Aug20.185825.16102@microsoft.com> philipla@microsoft.com (Phil Lafornara) writes:
: 
: >     Well, you'd also get the ability to use all the other software
: >that will be distributed on CD in the future.  Plus, you can use
: >it to do multimedia stuff, you can use it to get colossally large
: >shareware libraries, and you can use it to play the latest Smashing
: >Pumpkins album.
: 
: Except I don't do any of that other stuff, so why should I spend money
: for the ability to do it?

You aren't.  You are bowing to Microsoft who is forcing you use CD-ROM to
install NT.  

: I don't.  Why does Microsoft insist that any NT developer must own at
: least one?

Because they can.  There are plenty of developers who will.

: >     Please explain to me how anyone is forcing you to buy a CD-ROM.
: >Try not to use any gratuitous capital letters or exclamation
: >points.
: 
: There is the caveat of NT development in there.  So, take your
: arrogant company and, well, you get the idea.  This is the way Old IBM
: thought, too.  Look what happened to THEM.

Forcing users to use CD-ROM is a "arrogant" SunSoft concept as well.  You
can no longer get SunOS on tape.  You have to buy it CD-ROM.  I don't
think Sun is going out of business anytime too soon.

Microsoft isn't just tarketing typical micro vendors anymore, they are
targetting the large PC developers and the workstation market.  If you
can't afford a CD-ROM setup to use NT, then Microsoft doesn't think you
are big enough to worry about. 

Microsoft isn't doing what IBM did either.  IBM required an upgrade of
the system (286 or better, 4-8MB RAM).  A CD-ROM isn't necessarily an
upgrade, but an add-on.

--
+-----------------+-------------------------------+-------------------------+
| Bill Poitras    | Molecular Simulations Inc.    | Tel (408)522-9229       |
| (bill)          | Sunnyvale, CA USA             |                         | 
|                 | FAX (408)732-0831             | bill@msi.com            |
+-----------------+-------------------------------+-------------------------+

Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy
From: dpbsmith@world.std.com (Daniel P. B. Smith)
Subject: Bulldozer races
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 18:06:48 GMT

I've just been reading "Hard Drive: Bill Gates and the
Making of the Microsoft Empire," by James Wallace and Jim
Erickson (Wiley, 1992; ISBN 0-471-56886-4) and it's "must"
reading for anyone into personal computers.

Anyway, one passage set me to thinking about these
newsgroups:

"[During the summer of 1977, Chris] Larson was Gates'
partner again on late-night shenanigans at a road
construction site ... where unsuspecting workers would keave
the keys in the heavy equipment when they went home for he
day.  Gates and Larson would sneak into the site, and by
trial and error they learned to operate the complex
machinery and drive it around the site.... One night, Gates
and Larson held a bulldozer race, engines revving, stacks
belching black smoke, determined to find out whose machine
was faster.  Neither would claim to be the winner. The
bulldozer rate become part of Microsoft folklore."

Wake up, friends. IBM and Microsoft are having a bulldozer
race, and we're standing around rooting for one or the
other.  But _whichever_ one wins, _we_ are the ones that get
bulldozed.



-- 
Daniel P. B. Smith
dpbsmith@world.std.com
Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
From: dlcogswe@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Dan Cogswell)
Subject: Re: Microsoft bashing (was: Re: Some more misconceptions...)
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI.
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 21:54:12 GMT

philipla@microsoft.com (Phil Lafornara) writes:

>In article <92246.153543ANDY@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> Andrew T. Robinson <ANDY@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> writes:
>>No one asked, but here are my opinions of Microsoft:
                                ^^^^^^^^

>>
>>Microsoft is basically a corporate-sized ego with marketing muscle.  The
>>debacle between IBM and MS with OS/2 was as far as I've ever been able to
>>tell entirely an outgrowth of MS' greed, and not because there were
>>technical issues that couldn't be resolved with stodgy old IBM.

>     Please show evidence to support this claim.

>					-Phil

Phil, I'm not sure he needs to show evidence that he believes that.  I'm
sure he does.

-- 
Dan Cogswell               Or as we say in Michigan:  "Dee-troit"


Newsgroups: comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy