Newsgroups: bit.listserv.seasia-l
Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 00:02:38 EDT
From:         -ar- <arusydi@SUVM.SYR.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Charley's comment [was Re: Wooooowww.....woooowwww

> Message-Id:   <9210050342.AA03540@igc.apc.org>
> Date:         Sun, 4 Oct 1992 20:42:33 PDT
> From: Charles Scheiner <cscheiner@IGC.APC.ORG>
>
> ar, Max, and Carl --
> Thanks for your thoughts and ideas on this.

> It's interesting to me that ar gets resentful about the US government
> no longer training the Indonesian military on how to kill and oppress
> people more efficiently.  If he agrees with his own statements (as I,
> a US citizen, do) that the US has serious problems and is responsible
> for many problems globally, he should celebrate the removal of that
> influence on ABRI.

Indeed, there is an agreement and disagreement between us, Charley.
In this case, I tried not to attack the person but his/her ideas.
You know exactly from the beginning the very rude behavior as part
of his celebration was performed. Was it a proper and nice behavior
that should be performed by a human-right activist?

If in the first place, the way of his 'celebration' was similar to yours,
probably my response wouldn't be like that. I think, if we declare to
be a humanist or human-right activits and the like, we need to learn
how to attack the ideas instead of the people themselves. If we need
to change something to be better, then we need to behave as best as
we could based on what you feel good and somebody else's good feeling
too. I know you guys are more human-right oriented than me. Even if
I am, this is not my business anyway. I just better take care my
people before I spent my time for something that I don't know better.
About celebration? Wait a minute,.... are you happy for now?
Do you think it will be no more game? I think you know better than me
about whats going on in this place. Yes you could celebrate it. Enjoy....

> Date:         Sun, 4 Oct 1992 18:33:08 -0500
> From: Max Becherer <becherer@SUNA0.CS.UIUC.EDU>
>
> [deleted]
>>need support and education. My point is, there are a lot of things to
>>do to make you environment cleaner and more beutiful. Why do you keep
>>trying to avoid the local problems and go away from your place just for
>                   ^^^ Irrelevant.  The topic at hand is East Timor, not the
> United States.  Changing the subject will not change things in East Timor.

Hmmm, I wonder, Charley and Max don't have a similar view here. Charley
seems to accept it by using his approach as what my statistician friend
calls this as 'cause-effect factor.' But could you talk much about
the cause instead? I still don't understand, why some people like to
talk about ET instead of talking about the causa in the first place?
And it seems to me that some of us in this net prefer to get involved
in the business of others.

[deleted]
>>those running government? Get out!!!
>                 ^^^ Opressive governments tend to be emancipated in their
>treatment of the facts.  In other words, they have a nasty tendancy to lie.

To lie? If you could have a time to read Time magazine Oct.5, 1992, you
will know much what you talking about :-).

>>Be real! Get real! and there are so many real things are going on
>>just right in your place. I tell you what, why don't you just tell
>>me, whats the different between anthropology and journalism? Than
>                 ^^^ What does this smoke screen have to do with East Timor ?
>>you will know as an outsider why you got the report like that.

Charley could tell you this :-).

>>The problem here is not who defends whom. But how you could be a
>>brilliant helper to solve so many problems in you place, before
>>you go out to take a shot somewhere else. More than that the more
>>intellectual discussion is the better, than just mucking around.
>   ^^^ I repeat, what does THIS smoke screen have to do with East Timor ?

Because, talking about ET doesn't need to or may be cannot be so
intellectual :-).

>>No flame, please. I just try to follow your sense of humor here.
>   ^^^ Sorry, you're already crispy.

Can't us be more humorous?

>>       Nothing Evil lasts forever -- the Future belongs to the Free.
>>Yes, and even you find evil everywhere :-).
>                        ^^^ Like in Indonesia, perhaps ?

I repeat EVERYWHERE (w/out mentioning a particular country).

>      There was nothing of substance in this response, only smoke screens
>to avoid addressing Indonesia's brutal treatment of East Timor.  Rarely have
>I encountered a more pathetic debating opponent.
>                 Max Becherer    becherer@cs.uiuc.edu

Hey, relax......
Lets replace the name in above statement with another name, it might be
more fun, though. As Charley implisitly said, there is a cause-effect
factor in this case. And this is my first time to response to such a
'elemental celebration.' I think I should join a human-right movement
so that I could be a sympathic :-).

Charley said:
>As an American, I want MY government to stop supplying weapons and
>training to military and other dictatorships like the Suharto regime.
>I don't want my taxes and the name of my country to be associated with
>mass murder and genocide, whether directly done by the Pentagon's forces
>or by others (Marcos, Deng, Suharto, Pinochet, Somoza, ...) bought and
>paid for by the Pentagon and the CIA.

There you go. This statment is an original one. Its nicer, isn't it.
If Carl celebrated using these words in the first place, I think,
we could have fun :-).

>I would expect that the people living in those countries would be glad
>to have the burden of American imperialism lifted from their shoulders.

I agree in this case. But just can't read Carl's words. I hope you
understand why I was irritated with. We are in the arena of human-right
movement, and should be humane and polite. Am I wrong?

>Why the negative, nationalist reaction of Indonesians like ar when we
>stop bringing their military officers to the US for brainwashing and
>cultivation of subservience to the Pentagon?  Do you want Washington
>to run things in your country -- the essence of George Bush's "New World
>Order?"

Hmmmm, its pretty democratic nuance :-)

Hey relax.....   I said that the first words of the 'elemental
celebration' was so rude. And some folks in this net agreed with my
'evaluation' of such a 'human-right celebration.' Thats all.
Charley, hope you understand why I responded like that to Carl's
(not Carl). Probably it was because of my human-right.

>Charlie Scheiner, East Timor Action Network /US
ardi [no network]
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