From: Shadow@expect.hid.edu (AnnKnows KneeMust)
Subject: Collection of Farang (Food for Brain)'s story
Originator: arunsaku@rintintin.Colorado.EDU
Organization: The Infamous Industry 
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 07:30:39 GMT



1. [sripen durongdej , 25 Sep 1992 02:05:00 GMT]

Sometimes ago there's a lady asking about seeking job in Thailand for her Farang
friend.  She said her friend is quite good in his field of work.  And she 
wanted to know if there is any possibility in getting job for him.  I have 
experienced Farang working in Bangkok before and I can say that I am not    
impressed by their work.  The only thing that impresses me is their earnings.

One of my friend married a Farang lady.  Both of them graduated from the  
University in North America.  My friend is a lecturer of a government universityso he could manage to make his Farang wife hired by his faculty.  Both of them
got Master Degrees in Engineering.  My friend's salary is about five to six
thousands Baht while his wife earns about 18,000 Baht.  She can't speak Thai
so she lectures in English.   I don't  know if all students understand
every single word.  From my own experience when I was in Chula we had some
Farang teaching English and other subjects.  It's a good idea to learn English
from a native speaker but in other subject we always had another Thai lecturer
to translate for us.  

For my friend's wife, I don't think that in that engineering school there won't be any good Thai lecturer to teach that subject.  The reason why she earns     
triple of her husband's salary is because she is Farang.  We are still think 
that Farang is better than Thai.  We all experienced racism in North America
but don't you think we are discriminated by our own people.  Why do we have to 
pay Farang higher salary when they can't speak Thai and they are not better 
than us?  If they really want to work in Thailand, can they earn the same rate
as we do?  Can they all use Thai language in their work?  If not, why do they
still earn much more?  I always wonder if these Farang are real good,
why can't they find any good jobs in their own countries?  I am not a 
government officer but many of you are.  So please, when you all go back to
Thailand please keep in mind why we are discriminated by our own people. 

Thanks.

2. [Uthayopas Putchong, 25 Sep 1992 05:16:42 GMT]

The case like this also happened all the time. Many thai people alway
think that Farang is better than us. It's true if that farang is working
with something new in their country. Once I have been worked with a big
computer company, my company alway brought the specialist from Europe or
even Hongkong to help in some big project. I found that my boss seem to
believe in what they said than what the thai engineer said even sometime
it NONSENSE. What even bother more is that they alway brought the specialist
to help rather than send some thai engineer to have a training about that
technology.  I believe that in my field ( Computer, Electronic, Communication)
the standard of education in thailand is very high at least for undergraduate
level. If the company train us, we can do all that stuff farang can do.
But they don't believe in us.

Another bad impression I recieved is about the Hongkong or Singapore
specialist. They seem to act as superior. What really happened is that
my company establish the regional service center at HK and Singapore.
So, when they have some new product, the main company train them first.
And that HK engineesr are responsible to train us. I think that they do not
tell us all they know. They have some document that we don't have so
that make them know much more than us (and they keep it so they still know
something in deep that we don't know). I think that out country lost some
big oppertunity to have some technology transfer in the case like this.

Anyway, I still hope for the future of our country and believe
that it is the responsibility of us all to work it out to the best.


3. [John Gregor, 25 Sep 1992 14:11:51 GMT]


.....Sripen>
>experienced Farang working in Bangkok before and I can say that I am not    
>impressed by their work.

Why do you think you can make a general statement about a class of people
("...  not impressed by their work...") based on a few you have seen?  It
may interest you that some of the best engineers/teachers/etc in the world
are, from your point of view, foreigners.  Some of worst are too.  Don't be
so quick to judge people based on citizenship.  Judge individuals based on
their behavior, not the class of people they belong to.

John

4. [Mike Olmstead]

FARANG WORKING IN THAILAND

Being a farang makes me an outsider on this network so I should probably
keep my mouth shut, but I won't.

.....Sripen>
>I have experienced Farang working in Bangkok before and I can say that I
>am not impressed by their work.  The only thing that impresses me is their
>earnings.

Statements like this scare me.  I guess all farang are bad and shouldn't
go to Thailand to work.  Clearly this person thinks Thais are generally
better workers than farangs.  Emphasis on generally.
 
Many farang are happy to work for Thai wages and they do!  How many
relief workers and volunteers are there in Thailand?  I used to teach
English there myself for peanuts.

There are also many instances where someones expertise is required and
therefore they have to be enticed with reasonable salaries.  I have worked in
developing countries like Michigan and Illinois where they had to pay
top dollar for someone who could do the job.  I wasn't taking someones
work, I was one of the few who could do it. 

.....Sripen>
>I always wonder if these Farang are real good,
>why can't they find any good jobs in their own countries?  

Maybe just maybe they want to learn about your culture, but then that
could get in the way of ethnic cleansing, couldn't it?

At the University of Waterloo (where the original posting is from) we
have many teaching assistants that can barely speak English.  They are
of course students who don't like this.  I made a point of knowing them
and even if I suffered through their broken english they were always
glad to help. 

Nobody should be paid according to race, creed or sex.  I am sure that
there is a problem with this in Thailand, however I get the impression
that the posting had a poison pen spirit behind it, I apologize if it
didn't.

I'll probably get flamed  for this but I am so tired of any form of
generlisation of people.  My spirit is broken, I will hide with my own
kind...let the pograms begin.

5. [Michael Rhodes, 25 Sep 1992 18:00:28 GMT]

  Being an outsider (spelled Farang) also I have felt some trepidation
to post on SCT.  I have been an avid reader (daily) for over a year.  As
for your (Mike Olmstead's) comments, they were appropriate, well said, and 
properly graded in tone.  I too hate these generalities and stereo-typing 
they do the foreigner an injustice.

  I will be returning to Thailand shortly to teach computer programming in
"English".  This is by request from the school.  Most technical/engineering
courses are taught in English in Thailand and even though a can speak Thai
(limited) the schools still wish to teach the courses in English

  My degrees are in E.E. and C.S. and I have a very rewarding and challenging
job in Nuclear Physics/Research but yet I wish to leave this to go to Thailand.
My reason, as is for many Farang, is that I love the country, the culture and 
the Thai people, and for no other motive.  I will be paid at exactly what a 
Thai teacher would be paid for the same work.

  So please be more aware and conscientious of those Farangs whose motives are
more noble than you may be aware of.  I have been overwhelmed by the caliber
of the posts on SCT and as such have kept my nose out of it.  But some times
things need addressed for perspective.  I wish that my Thai language skills
were as good as most of the Thai English skills. Will keep working on it.

6. [LAURENCE GODFREY, 25 Sep 92 23:29:00 GMT]

[Quoted the whole 1st article]

Let me answer some of your questions, as a farang who worked in Thailand
(CMU).

One reason why farangs get paid more is that Thai people frequently charge
them at least twice as much (and often 5 times as much) as they charge each 
other for the same : housing, taxis, renting cars and motorbikes, food on
the street etc.  Do you, for example, know of ANY 
hotels in Thailand (other than the very smallest) that do not operate a two-tier
price structure, charging less than half the price to Thais?  Even the airport
hotel at Don Muang does this.

Take the universities - a farang foreign expert earns about twice as much as
a Thai Assoc Professor, but the Thai gets free housing, a permanent job rather
than a short-term contract, earns extra from corruption, bribes etc.  There
is no doubt that the average Thai professopr has a far higher standard of
living than his farang equivalent in Thailand, despite being paid half
as much.  In addition, the family of the farang are not entitled to work
while in Thailand.

Now I love Thailand and I am very fond of the Thai people, but I am in no
doubt whatever that if the Thais could dispense with the services of farang
workers they would readily do so.  The truth is that many of the farang who
work in Thailand have expertise that is rare amonsgt the Thais, that is 
the reason that they are paid well to work there.  I went to CMU with a 
PhD from England and 8 years of postdoc experience in my field, and in that
time I wrote the only international publication that the rsearch group had
ever had (excluding one written by a Japanese), got their equipment
working for them and did many things besides, but i still had to fight for
more than a year after I left to get the salary I was owed by the university.

There is some truth in what you have to say about some farang workers in
Bangkok - many of those working in commerce are not very impressive, and
are there because they like the women or the boys.  However, the same is
generally not true of the universities - although some may have the same
reasons for being there, they are generally good in their fields and
freqeuntly do much more useful work than their Thai counterparts.  Now
those in commerce and industry are most often paid by foreign companies
and they cost the Thai people nothing - if the companies want to employ
drunken slobs who spend all their time in bars, that is their problem.

I would take the opposite point of view to you on the whole - I don't
believe the Thais pay higher salaries to farang because they think the
farang are better, they pay them because they think they get more than
their money's worth out of the farang and they frequently laugh behind the farang's backs because they are taking
advantage of them.

Having said all that, I still think I would encourage any farang who wanted
to go to work in Thailand - it's a very interesting experience.  However,
I personally would never again work for a Thai university or a Thai company,
only a foreign-run outfit.  

7. [Trin Tantsetthi, 26 Sep 92 07:23:07 +0700]

.....Sripen>
> I have experienced Farang working in Bangkok before and I can say that I
> am not impressed by their work.

I don't believe ethnic background or nationality has anything to do with
quality of the work.

Sripen> We are still think that Farang is better than Thai.

If `we' are still thinking like that or the other way around, perhaps `we' 
should sit back and think of it again.

Sripen> We all experienced racism in North America
Sripen> but don't you think we are discriminated by our own people.

I have no idea about racism/xenophobia you `all' are experiencing but if
there is any kind of discrimination here in Thailand, it should be
eliminated.

Sripen> Why do we have to pay Farang higher salary when they can't speak 
Sripen> Thai and they are not better than us?

An employment is not a one-sided decision. In fact, it must be mutually
agreed upon by both employer and employee.

If the employer hires a person at premium but the person does not deserve
the extra cost (or does not qualify for the job), there is something wrong
with the employer (or recruitment process) -- not the new hire -- definitely
not his/her race.

8. [John Cronin, 29 Sep 92 00:40:11 GMT]

.....John Gregor>
>Why do you think you can make a general statement about a class of people
>("...  not impressed by their work...") based on a few you have seen?  It
>may interest you that some of the best engineers/teachers/etc in the world
>are, from your point of view, foreigners.

I have to agree.  I think I would love to have a job in Thailand.  I am
certainly able to get a job in the US, I have managed to remain employed
for the last 16 years or so.  However, I believe that some of the follow-ups
on this subject are worth discussing.  I can believe that there are many
qualified Thais who are paid less than equally or less qualified farangs.
If you get some equipment from outside Thailand, it might be easy to believe
that someone from the country and company where you purchased the equipment
might know more about it.  This may or may not be true.  I can also believe
that some of these people might not adequately train the Thais to use and 
maintain the equipment, to keep the Thais at a disadvantage.  I can assure
you that I would refuse to work for a company if they required me to do this,
as I believe in the free flow of information.  However, it is not hard to
find people who would be willing to cheat someone like this.

9. [John Cronin, 29 Sep 92 00:48:59 GMT]

.....Sripen>>
>> Why do we have to 
>> pay Farang higher salary when they can't speak Thai and they are not better 
>> than us?

.....Trin>
>An employment is not a one-sided decision. In fact, it must be mutually
>agreed upon by both employer and employee.
>
>If the employer hires a person at premium but the person does not deserve
>the extra cost (or does not qualify for the job), there is something wrong
>with the employer (or recruitment process) -- not the new hire -- definitely
>not his/her race.

This is a very good point, particularly in relation to the post about the
engineers from Hong Kong who seemed to deliberately keep some information
secret when training Thais.  If they are doing this, then they should be
fired and another person or company found to do the job right.  Please don't
try to tell me that no farang will do a fair job for fair money when working
in Thailand.  It is possible to find people to do anything for money, even
work hard. ;-)  It may be harder to find a hard worker than a cheater, but
this just means that an employer must work hard to find the workers, and
recognize when he has been tricked and get rid of bad workers.  This applies
to anybody, both Thai and farang, whether as employer or employee.

10. [Sripen durongdej, 27 Sep 1992 21:18:52 GMT]

 	
Khun Laurence,

Thank you for your response which you email me directly.  I think most Thai
users in SCT should not miss your opinion so I post it  here.  At least we
should learn what Farang really think about Thai people and Thailand when they
say they love Thailand they love Thai people, they want to work in Thailand.
 
Laurence>
>Let me answer some of your questions, as a farang who worked in Thailand
>(CMU).
 
>One reason why farangs get paid more is that Thai people frequently charge
>them at least twice as much (and often 5 times as much) as they charge each 
>other for the same : housing, taxis, renting cars and motorbikes, food on
>the street etc.  Do you, for example, know of ANY 
>hotels in Thailand (other than the very smallest) that do not operate a 
>two-tier price structure, charging less than half the price to Thais?
>Even the airport hotel at Don Muang does this.
 
Do you know that when we, Thai students, first came to study here, the
university that we were sent for cultural orientation programme charged 
each of us Canadian $ 110 for welcoming us at the airport and put us in the
residence.  The real cost of taxi fare from the airport to the residence was
only Can $ 25.  What a rip off!  At the residence we were treated badly 
because we were foreigners not Farang.  We came to know later that what we
paid Can $ 35 for accommdation a night, we should have breakfast too.  But
we were not informed by the people in charge.  When we told them they said
it's the rule of the campus not to serve breakfast to us.  We were paid
only a minimum allowance.  Do you people pay Thai workers who work here 
twice or triple of your normal salary because they are Thai?  If there was 
a case, I'm sure you guys will make a real loud noise, right?

Laurence>
>Take the universities - a farang foreign expert earns about twice as much as
>a Thai Assoc Professor, but the Thai gets free housing, a permanent job rather
>than a short-term contract, earns extra from corruption, bribes etc.  There
>is no doubt that the average Thai professopr has a far higher standard of
>living than his farang equivalent in Thailand, despite being paid half
>as much.  In addition, the family of the farang are not entitled to work
>while in Thailand.
 
If you really understand the situation in Thailand well enough or if you
have enough knowledge about the country you won't say such things.  Most
Thai government officers not only the university lecturers,but in general,
do not get free housing or housing allowance as Farang do.   What I
experienced the Farang rent houses, they paid 20,000 - 50,000 Baht a month.
What kind of houses? Wow, a real big one that I will never imagine I could
afford to live like that.  You also received allowance - big again for your
families.  What about Thai workers?  50 Bath a month to feed a kid!

Khun Anand, our ex-prime minister, used to ask some American reporters that
what about corruption in your own country?  Tell me Khun Laurence that you
don't have corruption in your government or agencies?  Since you mentioned
several times about corruption in Chula and Thailand, can you faithfully say
your country is and has always been free of corruption?  By the way, we learn
this word "corruption" from you, don't forget that.

You never heard the stories of Farang earn big extra money from corruption
while working in Thailand?  I have heard many scandals about this.  Beleive
it or not, I knew that one American preacher man corrupted during his work  
in Chiengmai.  What kind of corruption? Drug, smuggling across the borders,
cheating, cultural exploiting, ... you name it. 

Laurence>
>Now I love Thailand and I am very fond of the Thai people, but I am in no
>doubt whatever that if the Thais could dispense with the services of farang
>workers they would readily do so.  The truth is that many of the farang who
>work in Thailand have expertise that is rare amonsgt the Thais, that is 
>the reason that they are paid well to work there.  I went to CMU with a 
>PhD from England and 8 years of postdoc experience in my field, and in that
>time I wrote the only international publication that the rsearch group had
>ever had (excluding one written by a Japanese), got their equipment
>working for them and did many things besides, but i still had to fight for
>more than a year after I left to get the salary I was owed by the university.
 
I've heard, read and seen how you people treat the native indian and 
black people, I always ask why you people with expertise to teach the      
Third World can't even apply your own expertise in your own communities.
What about the garbage problems, what about the acid rain, what about
the wasteful consuming behavior?  Is that true to say you can see only
someone else's problems but not your own?

Laurence>
>There is some truth in what you have to say about some farang workers in
>Bangkok - many of those working in commerce are not very impressive, and
>are there because they like the women or the boys.  However, the same is
>generally not true of the universities - although some may have the same
>reasons for being there, they are generally good in their fields and
>freqeuntly do much more useful work than their Thai counterparts.  Now
>those in commerce and industry are most often paid by foreign companies
>and they cost the Thai people nothing - if the companies want to employ
>drunken slobs who spend all their time in bars, that is their problem.
 
Farang do much more useful work than their Thai counterparts?  Who said
so?  From Farang side only?  What I heard from my friends who were 
counterparts said these Farang experts were lazy, they did not really 
know what they were doing, or they did not work hard enough as what they
were paid to, or they were just interested in going to Patpong only.

Laurence>
>I would take the opposite point of view to you on the whole - I don't
>believe the Thais pay higher salaries to farang because they think the
>farang are better, they pay them because they think they get more than
>their money's worth out of the farang and they frequently laugh behind the
>farang's backs because they are taking advantage of them.
 
Wow, this is really interesting!!  What we laughed behind you was because
you think you are superior while your acting is not!!

Laurence>
>Having said all that, I still think I would encourage any farang who wanted
>to go to work in Thailand - it's a very interesting experience.  However,
>I personally would never again work for a Thai university or a Thai company,
>only a foreign-run outfit.  
 
Khun Laurence, from your previous news you posted in SCT, you said
something like you WANT Thai people to be this and that...
We, some Thai students here, discussed that WHO you think you are.
Are you the farang who go to Thailand with the attitude that you people
can dictate the Third World?

11. [Sripen Durongdej, 27 Sep 1992 22:02:47 GMT]

There was a seminar two years ago in my school, one of the several questions
in one of the topics was
"How can we dictate the third world?"  DICTATE from the Oxford American
Dictionary means to order with the force of authority.  I was stunned to 
learn what attitude of the people in this part of world was toward the third
world countries.  Every student in this session had been in the third world 
before.   Some of them stayed there for 2, 5, 6 months while some stayed longer such as one or two years.             
One of my friends was called an expert in third world country because she
used to work in some particular country for 2 years.  I asked her why the peoplein this part of world like to call themselves as expert in such as Thailand or  Indonesia or Kenya while you were there only short time.  You can't speak the
language.  You don't understand the culture or their way of life or thinking.
Whatever you saw you always had cultural shocks. 
    One of my Thai friends has been 
working in the field with Thai farmers.  She speaks Thai because she is Thai
and she has no cultural shock even she works in the different regions.  I told
her that so you can call yourself as an expert.  She said no, sometimes she 
also could not understand the people because she was not from that community.
I told this story to my farang friend who was called expert in third world.  
Finally she used the word "interest" instead of "expert".      

12. [Tawit Chitsomboon, 29 Sep 1992 12:38:41 GMT]

Sripen>............................  My friend's salary is about five to six
>thousands Baht while his wife earns about 18,000 Baht.  She can't speak Thai
>so she lectures in English.

I think that's the major reason why she got paid more; she's a native
speaker. It's like buying two votes with only one bill. I am no big fan
of farang getting special treatment in Thailand either but I must admit
that the majority of farang going to live in Thailand are good people
who genuinely love Thailand for various reasons. They sacrifice their
comfort in their respective first-world countries to live in our
country; the least we could do is to give them more. It may be the
only way  to attract good farangs to teach us.
(The case of your friend's wife is quite an exception though.)

I could cite many farangs who live and work in Thailand on a par
with the Thai workers, like those in the peace corps and other non-profit
,non-governmental agencies. (and those in monkhood :-)

Besides the immediate effect of English, we Thais could learn alot from
farangs that we couldn't learn from our fellow countrymen with equal
or better qualification. We  could learn how do they work/think/manage
so that we could begin to understand how did they manage their countries
so that they become what they  had become -- the goal that we have always
wanted to emulate. I'm no big fan of the farang's goal either but I wrote
this article on behalf of those who are.

I don't buy your theory that farangs go to work in Thailand because
they can't find jobs in their countries. I do agree that some of them
are just seeking fun and excitement in a different cultural setting.
But that is another aspect of farangs that we should contemplate:
they love and dare to explore! A lone female farang wouldn't deny
a chance to travel around the globe by herself; but a Thai male wouldn't
dare travel to a nearby province by himself! This explorative mind
is, IMO, equally applicable in the scientific and technological endeavor.

IMO, farangs have the best and the worst of human's quality within them.
It's our duty to think which side of them that we want to emulate.
Many times, it requires the farangs to tell us so!

-Tawit

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Farang is good for you, provided that it's not rotten.
Farang the Fruit, Farang the Man, I am confused often.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

13. [Sunchai Nilsuwankosit, 29 Sep 92 08:13:48 CDT]

I think now we are going too far. There is no point to say that 
somebdy are worse than what we are and do nothing to improve.
Even if we do improve, to blame the other with an intention of
making fool and ashame out of them do not help resolve the problems.
I agree that Farang (and many other foreigner) are not qualified
for their earning, but again I know many Thai that are also
unqualified for their high salary. Unfortunately that most of
the time we are the observers who always think we know better
than the player and think that we can do better. Once we are
the player, we inturn think we have done the best and no one
should blame you. It's true that to be an observer can let you
see everything clearer, but at the same time it make you
misunderstand the situation, especially when you have some good
or bad impression in background. I think, in Thai, we said "
Doo Nang+ Doo LaKorn Laew Yorn Doo Taue". This is still true for
us. Again I think in Christianism, we said "If you have no sin,
you are qualified to blame the other." This does not mean that
we cannot tell anyone that he/she is doing something wrong, but
it means that before you make an accusation, think first.

At this point, I would like to say something personal. Look at what
you see in the USA. One thing that will not help improve American
recession is the racism. American used to be the place of the
opportunity and everyone did the best of them to get to their own
success. This, more or less, made America go forward. Now,
when someone begin to accuse the other simply just because they
are different, they are losing their own potential to retain
their superiority (at this point someone may not like this word,
but I cannot think of the other that give me the closer meaning.)
What we need is not that someone is better than someone.
What we need is that someone, sometime, can be better than
the other. We may not know who and when (what and where) and
that is why we have to prepare and listen to the other.

14. [Mike Olmstead, 28 Sep 1992 18:39:29 GMT]

RE: DICTATING TO THE THIRD WORLD

Given the e-mail support from Thai netters who don't want to
get into the fray I'll add my two cents again.    

.....Sripen>
>There was a seminar two years ago in my school, one of the several questions
>in one of the topics was
>"How can we dictate the third world?"  DICTATE from the Oxford American
 
I am assuming that you are speaking about the University of Waterloo.  I
would like to know when and where this seminar was held.  Which
department was this in?  Who was the speaker?

.....Sripen>
>Dictionary means to order with the force of authority.  I was stunned to 
>learn what attitude of the people in this part of world was toward the third
>world countries.  Every student in this session had been in the third world 
>before.  Some of them stayed there for 2, 5, 6 months while some stayed longer >such as one or two years.             

YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT WE HAVE RACISM IN CANADA, however there is no gd
way that you can say that this is the attitude of people in this part of
the world.  If you choose to generalize people like this you are a
racist.  Sorry but I intentionally jerk my knees whenever people are put
into categories or described in general terms.  

.....Sripen>
>One of my friends was called an expert in third world country because she
>used to work in some particular country for 2 years. I asked her why the people>in this part of world like to call themselves as expert in such as Thailand or >Indonesia or Kenya while you were there only short time.  You can't speak the
>language.  You don't understand the culture or their way of life or thinking.
>Whatever you saw you always had cultural shocks. 

You go on and on about how little these people know about foreign
countries yet you yourself are an expert at the work habits and
attitudes of the farang.   

A while ago at a campus party a foreign farang student (Aussie) came in
and began talking about something that is cool to say.  He went on about
how terrible Americans are.  Now I know I am supposed to be kind to guests
from another country but I told him to ---- off.  You see it doesn't
matter who you are: a middle class American, a South African black or a
Thai farmer, you are still a person and deserve to be treated as one.

Farang who are being paid more in Thailand because they are white should
be fired and sent home in shame.  I'll go out on a limb though and
say that if they fired every farang worker in Thailand the working
and living conditions of those souls who claim to be so affected by them
would not improve at all. After that they will need to look for someone
else.  Eventually they will look for each other. 

There are no simple solutions to war and hunger but you can bet that one
evil spirit that hovers nearby is racism.

15. [Laurence Godfrey, 29 Sep 1992 18:46:00 GMT]

You were ripped off by the Canadians, in that case, and you have good
cause for complaint by the sound of it.  I am not going to try to
justify the behaviour of the Canadians, some of whom I know to be racist
and some of whom I know to be dishonest.  But does the fact that the
Canadians ripped you off invalidadte my complaints?  I don't think so.

.....Sripen> What I
>experienced the Farang rent houses, they paid 20,000 - 50,000 Baht a month.
>What kind of houses? Wow, a real big one that I will never imagine I could
>afford to live like that.  You also received allowance - big again for your
>families.  What about Thai workers?  50 Bath a month to feed a kid!
 
I included the housing allowance (5000 B - not 50,000!!!) in my salary ratio
above.  The Thai ajans I worked with did get free housing from CMU.

Sripen>
>You never heard the stories of Farang earn big extra money from corruption
>while working in Thailand?  I have heard many scandals about this.  Beleive
>it or not, I knew that one American preacher man corrupted during his work  
>in Chiengmai.  What kind of corruption? Drug, smuggling across the borders,
>cheating, cultural exploiting, ... you name it. 
 

There is corruption in all countries, but in the UK, England and Canada
(the three I have worked in the west for the longest time) it is much less 
widespread than in Thailand.  Again I would say the same as above - does
the fact that you can point to something being wrong elsewhere too make it 
okay for it to be wrong in Thailand.

Sripen>
>I've heard, read and seen how you people treat the native indian and 
>black people, I always ask why you people with expertise to teach the      
>Third World can't even apply your own expertise in your own communities.
>What about the garbage problems, what about the acid rain, what about
>the wasteful consuming behavior?  Is that true to say you can see only
>someone else's problems but not your own?

Wait, I'm a nuclear physicist - that's the area I apply myself.  I cannot
be held resdponsible for all the wrong-doings of the western world!

Sripen>
>Farang do much more useful work than their Thai counterparts?  Who said
>so?  From Farang side only?  What I heard from my friends who were 
>counterparts said these Farang experts were lazy, they did not really 
>know what they were doing, or they did not work hard enough as what they
>were paid to, or they were just interested in going to Patpong only.

This was my opinion from what I saw and heard at CMU and what I heard from 
others working in universities elsewhere in Thailand.  I can
only speak for myself here - I have been to Patpong only once, I am not
at all lazy and work very long hours, I did solve a problem that had prevented
the research group from making their machine work for a very long time, I
do not exactly what I'm doing in my work and when I don't know something
I make sure that I work it out.

Laurence>>
>> they pay them because they think they get more than their money's worth out
>> of the farang and they frequently laugh behind the farang's backs because 
>> they are taking advantage of them.

Sripen>
>Wow, this is really interesting!!  What we laughed behind you was because
>you think you are superior while your acting is not!!
 
At this point your mail becomes a little childish/  You don't know me as
a person or as a physicist, nor do you know what I think, nor do you seem
to have understood what I said in my mails.  I think that in many ways
the Thais are superior to the English (I am English by the way), that is
one of the reasons why I keep going back there and why I like the country
so much.  In nuclear physics, I have no hesitation in saying that the
physicists in the west are in general much better than those in Thailand,
but there are good Thai physicists in Thailand and there are good Thai
physicists elsewhere in the world.  The truth is that the very good Thai
physicists do not remain in Thai universities.

Sripen>
>Khun Laurence, from your previous news you posted in SCT, you said
>something like you WANT Thai people to be this and that...
>We, some Thai students here, discussed that WHO you think you are.
>Are you the farang who go to Thailand with the attitude that you people
>can dictate the Third World?

I don't dictate to anyone.  I am who I am, and like everyone else I have
opinions about many things.  If I see something is wrong then I say so,
if I think it should be put right I say so, whether or not anyone listens
to me is up to them - I have no way to force my opinion on Thais or
anyone else.  Dictating is the imposition of policies BY FORCE (my definition).
I do not and cannot dictate to Thailand or anywhere else in the third
world.

16. [Laurence Godfrey, 29 Sep 1992 19:43:00 GMT]

Khun Sripen, khrap

I answered your post point by point, but after some thought I feel that I
should like to say something else.  As you have unilaterally chosen to
post my email to you I guess I should continue to reply to you on the
network.  This is a more general reply and more personal.

The most charitable interpretation I can put on the feelings which underpin
your mail is that you misunderstand altogether my reasons for sharing
my feelings about Thailand.  While I admit that some of my postings to
other network groups are mischievous, those to the Thai group are from
the heart and they are things that I feel strongly about.  Don't think
I do not criticise my own country (England) or others I haved live in,
because I do all the time.  My motives in the Thai group are that I would
like to see some improvements in Thailand and I care enough about it to
spend time thinking about these things.  I tell you quite honestly that I
care far less about my own country and those of the west, because I
frankly think most of them are too far gone to ever become desirable
places to live in, whereas Thailand has such an intrinsically attractive
culture and so much potential that I feel it is a shame to see it wasted
and subjugated by corrupt politicians and other exploiters.

The least charitable interpretation is that your mail is xenophobic - 
very xenophobic - you don't like farang.  I know there are quite a few
Thais who feel this way and I don't try to change their minds, I just
avoid them.  There is a very big difference between criticising a group
of people and irrationally disliking them, and if you are just being
critical then that's fine with me.

I end with a story, which might help you see things from the farang point
of view - always supposing that you want to make that effort.  While at CMU
I met an American ex-professor of an obscure branch of philosophy who had
retired from the US and chosen to spend the last few years of his life in
Thailand.  He arranged with CMU to come there and set up a very small
department in his field, and to do so for NO SALARY and support himself
on his savings (which I am sure were quite considerable).  The first thing
that went wrong for him was that the Thai government taxed him on the savings
that he sent into Thiland in sorder to support himself - these were savings
that he had earned in the US and which of course had already been taxed in
the US.  The next thing that went wrong was that his private library on
his subject, wich he donated free of charge to the university, was valued
and taxed by the Thai customs.  The last thing, just before I met him, was
that a scholarship fund which he had set up to sent two Thai students to
the US to continue their studies ($20,000, if I recall correctly) was
taxed by the Thai revenue when he brought it into Thailand.  Not surprisingly,
when we met in the forecourt of the Tax Office in Chiang Mai he was applying
for his exit visa to leave Thailand for good, having just paid the necessary
bribe to the tax lady (who I am happy to recount is now in prison after a
lifetime of demanding bribes from farang).

Now think about that (I hope you will accept that I have told it exactly
as it was told to me, and that I think he was being absolutely truthful)
and see if you can understand that from a farang point of view

Sawasdee khrap, Laurence

17. [Sripen Durongdej, 29 Sep 1992 13:27:44 GMT]

In response to Mike Olmstead...

You raise my sentense of "I don't think Farang is better than us" and you 
disagree with me.  That's fine because you are farang and you have to defend
for yourself.  But to say it is kind of poison?  Well, think it over when I
said I don't think farang is better than us.  If I said farang is worse than
us then I will definitely accept that I have bad attitude toward farang.
If you are so mad, it's because you beleive that you are better than Thais.
If not I still don't understand why I can't generalize this statement.  I pay
tax to the Thai government I don't want money being paid to farang in a triple
rate when we can hire Thai to do the same job.  Is that something wrong?  I
beleive very much that the Thai students who are studying in this part of the  
world will go back home and one day become an important officer who can make
essential decision.  At that time they won't spend money in this way, I hope. 
I don't know how many Thai you know to make you feel very positive that you 
are better than Thai so you have to accuse some one's statement as poison.  
What I raise is some food for thoughts for Thai students.  If that makes you 
feel mad, I'm sorry to say that it's your own personal problem.  This is out
of my business.  Be more open minded as it makes you become a racist. 
 	I feel very positive to make some observations about my own country and
that statement doesn't harm any body except for those who have old attitudes 
and beleive   
that they are better than others.  So please be considerate in making your own
statement.  My statement was mild and general, not aggressive or accusing.

18. [Sripen Durongdej, 29 Sep 1992 13:41:09 GMT]

In response to Mike Olmstead....

The more you express yourself it shows clearly to everyone that you are a
RACIST and don't beleive that every one is equal.  YOU STILL THINK THAT YOU
ARE BETTER THAN THAIS.  From your arguement it's full of hatred and anger.  I
think you may experienced some thing in the third world that makes a farang    
like you felt ashame of.   
I would be very happy if the Thai farmers said they are capable to work out
some development project by themselves.  I beleive in teaching people how to
fish rather than giving them the fish and expect them to be dependent on me.
Is this giving you some hints?  Think of your self over and over again before
going around and tell others that you are a real RACIST.  You are showing your
true colour which is good to know!!

19. Sunchai Nilsuwankosit 29 Sep 92 17:39:53 CDT]

According to what we have been discussing through this week,
I think we already present our opinions. Apart from this
point, this discussion will become fierce and less logical.
We may not be able to agree at one points, but at least I 
think we know what the other thought about us. We have different
experience and different points of view which may or may
not go along with the others'. The point is that are we being
reasonable? If yes, then it does not matter if the other agree
with us or not. If no, then it might be a good idea to calm down
and think about it again.

For both sides of us, even if 99% of what we have experienced
are not so impressive. The other 1% or less that left are
what we may be able to make it better. 

From what we have disscussed, we already turn on a light in our
idea. Do not let it off because we cannot accept each other.

20. [Sripen Durongdej, 29 Sep 1992 15:50:45 GMT]

In response to Mike Olmstead....

Please read the response from Khun Laurence.  He has been accusing Thai      
government officers as well as the officers in Chula being corrupted.  If you
are a reasonable person as you try to be, why don't you ask him to specify
who, when, where, instead of GENERALISING in saying such thing?  I don't see
any Thai users in this net blaming him badly and using unpolite words to him   
at all.  Isn't this something?  Aren't you trying to tell Thai people in this
net that you are a real Canadian Racist?  If so, thank you for showing us.


21. [Mike Olmstead, 29 Sep 1992 16:00:56 GMT]

To Thai netters:

I have been accused on your network of being a racist because I called
someone else a racist for making a generalization of a group of people,
namely farang.  It was assumed that I was offended because I am farang.
I am offended because my adopted daughter is Thai.  I don't like any
form of classifying people by race.

I have also been accused of thinking that I am better than Thais.  I
honestly cannot see how my postings displayed this.  If I offended the
Thais on this network I am sorry. I am at a loss as to how this would
have been implied.

I have recieved support from several Thais across North America who
asked not to be involved and so sent me e-mail instead of posting.

In my postings I clearly stated that any farang being paid more
because s/he is white should be fired.  This is the same as being paid
less because you are female.  Its wrong and it should never happen.
No where in my postings did I support higher pay farang doing the same
job as the Thais. If a so called foreign expert is not really an expert
then they should be turfed, period. 

The posting that began this mess described a problem where farang who
were doing the very same job as Thais were paid more because of the
perception of the administrators who felt that these foreign experts
were more qualified.  I am sure this is a valid point.  What irked me
was the broad statements and generalities.  The second posting described
a seminar called dictating the third world.  The poster went on to say
that she could not believe the attitudes of people in this part of the
world....more generalities.

When I lived in Thailand I did not find common attitudes.  I did not
find some character trait  or ability that I could say was Thai.  I have
never found this anywhere in the world.  Sure there are cosmetic
differences like how religion, culture etc. shape your views but most of
its the same.  We are born, we fall in love, we get married, we take our
kids to their grandparents on holidays and we mourn the loss of loved
ones. 

What I am trying to say is that difference between individuals within a
culture or racial group is much greater than the difference between the
group and other groups.  That is why classifying people on any of
these grounds to describe their personal traits makes no sense.

I'd rather listen to Tawit than continue with this string.

Mike Olmstead
olmstead@sail.uwaterloo.ca

22. [Thanachart Numnonda]

.....Laurence>  
>Take the universities - a farang foreign expert earns about twice as much as
>a Thai Assoc Professor, but the Thai gets free housing, a permanent job rather
>than a short-term contract, earns extra from corruption, bribes etc.  There
>is no doubt that the average Thai professopr has a far higher standard of
>living than his farang equivalent in Thailand, despite being paid half
>as much.  In addition, the family of the farang are not entitled to work
>while in Thailand.

I work in a university as well. But, no accomadation is provided for me.
No extra money from corruption, bribes etc.  The life is a liitle bit
tough, most of my salary goes to the rental. There are some farangs working
in the same university who have the same qualification  (and nearly the same 
age) as me. They get more pay. I don't mind, but please understand that 
I don't have a higher standard of living than them.

The same thing happens to my father and my Mom. Both work in the universities.
They never corruptted, and get NO EXTRA income. My family still poor compare to
farangs who have the same qualification. 
My MOM finished her PhD nearly 30 years, and nearly retires. But, my parent
still haven't own a house. 

Since I grow up, I live in the university environment; Chulalongkorn, 
Cheing Mai, Silapakorn and Khon Kaen. I know that there are some inresponsible
lectures in the universities. But most are good, and the corruption
is very rare.

Laurence> Now I love Thailand and I am very fond of the Thai people.

However, I think you don't understand the Thai people well enough.
I have read most of your articles posted to s.c.t. Some are very good,
but sometimes I found that you misundertand the Thai people.
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------