From: bloodthorn@sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Jennifer Geard)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Heraldic questions... 
Distribution: world
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 93 01:50:03 GMT
Organization: Lethargy Inc.

Unto Tadhg and others on this bridge does Pagan le Chaunster send Greetings! 

Good my lord, distance and lightning have kept me from the Rialto for 
some time, and as I return I find that the discussion has moved on.

Well, hmmm, yes.  I think I'll put the issue of western culture/western 
Europe into the "personal preferences wrt definitions" category and say 
there's no point disputing tastes.  You made what was to my mind a more 
interesting point with your references to charges which originated in the SCA 
(one of the local heralds discovered the "Cross of Samildanach" last year and 
has taken to describing it as "very sexy" -- is there a philia to describe 
this?  ]-).  Most of these charges seem to be frowned upon where I live, and 
I've never seen them outside the Pictorial Dictionary.  Our views of SCA 
heraldry are shaped by our (very different) experiences of it. 

And for my next batch of comments (not aimed at Tadhg, just general 
observations and questions):

- The more I find about bases or mounts vert in east-of-France heraldry the 
more I find that they were a) common, and b) don't seem to play by the colour 
rules.  You could put a base or mount vert on a field of any shade (colour or 
metal) and it didn't seem to affect anything else.  It would appear that it 
was thought of as a sort of internal compartment to stand charges on.  
Perhaps the CoA could consider allowing the use of such bases or mounts in 
appropriate styles of arms as a standard exception to the colour rules. 

- The colour rules were guidelines.

- I'm pushing it to find much purpure/pourpre/purpura in early blazon at all, 
and at the moment (probably because I'm looking for it) I'm finding more vert 
in (eastern) bases or mounts than anywhere else.  However, for what it's 
worth I'll type in a passage from "The Blazon of Gentrie" compiled by Sir 
John Ferne and published in London in 1586 (microfilm is a wondrous thing).  
Spelling, capitalisation and punctuation as given (although I've inserted 
spaces after punctuation for clarity, shortened the long "s", and can't type 
the italics). 

    Armes that are called false or falsefied, be either of colours 
    alone, or of mettals alone : such, are not worth the receauing 
    [receiving], except in some speciall cases.  The Armories, 
    which are called Vera, bee composed, either of mettall and 
    colour, or els of furres.  The mettals are two: the furres also 
    are but two: but colours according to the blazon, of some 
    Englishmen are 7. notwithstanding I do with the french men, 
    condemn the last two colours : that is to say, Tawney and 
    sanguine, as no colours.  But we will vouchsafe, to have them 
    called staines : Yet in Dutch-land, and Poland, with the 
    North-east regions, they be taken for good colours.  Wherefore, 
    since that, they are very rare, in English Armorie (and yet I 
    know they be borne) I will not reckon them, for colours : So 
    that I reckon, but fiue colours in Armes properly.  viz. Gewls, 
    Azure, Sable, Vert, and Purpure.  (Ferne, p. 163) 

Eight pages later Ferne describes the seventh colour:  "The 7. cullor is 
composed of white, blew, & red, and is called purpre".  This composition of 
purpure is similar to the one given in the Larousse discussion ("il n'a pas 
de couleur propre mais qu'il est compose du melange egal des quatre autres").  
I gather, however, that C. R. Humphery-Smith has something to say about this 
in an article called "Purpure" in _Coat of Arms_, iv (1956), 19-20 -- anyone 
have access?

And why does purple attract such fervent devotees?

- When did "proper" come into use?  Fox-Davies is as vague as ever and no-one 
else is much more help.

- And finally (for now, and this one *is* aimed at Tadhg) how does one 
pronounce "Tadhg"?  I'm sick of gargling each time I refer to you.  ]-)  The 
nearest I can guess is "Thaddy", which seemed influenced by the later link 
made between this name and Thad(d)eus. 

Pagan le Chaunster
Not a Herald.  
________________________________________________________________________
Jennifer Geard                         bloodthorn@sloth.equinox.gen.nz
Christchurch, New Zealand