HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cleggp@aix.rpi.edu (Paul Jason Clegg)
Subject: Re: net.rpg.slug: Action resolution
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 01:58:12 GMT

In article <1992Nov22.222928.10038@oz.plymouth.edu> sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan) writes:
>cleggp@aix.rpi.edu (Paul Jason Clegg) writes:
>The only way SLUG will work as a Universal game, though, is to have two
>scales: human-norm range, and superhuman range.  Each would use the
>same adjectives, but would have no points in common - even a Terrible
>superhuman Strength would be more than a Superb human strength could
>achieve on his best roll.  You could also have a sub-human scale, too,
>for the Wee Folk and Bunnies & Burrows (any system that can run B&B
>isn't Universal - one of my two favorite genres!).

I think the latter is a Bad Idea.  If you want to keep it simple, keep the
same scale & system, particularly if you want to make the game really, really
generic.

BTW:  Is net.rpg.slug a different thing than net.rpg?  I thought you had just
been calling the same thing something different...  (Not that that is going
to stop me from making comments! :)

...Paul


-- 
+                +        +    +  + + +  +    +        +                +
  Paul Clegg, cleggp@aix.rpi.edu.   Project Galactic Guide Coordinator.
            System One RPG designer.   But generally unknown.
+                +        +    +  + + +  +    +        +                +
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: fks1@ellis.uchicago.edu (Scaramouche)
Subject: Re: net.rpg.slug: Action resolution
Reply-To: fks1@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 06:38:00 GMT

sorry i 'lost' the original post so am using this one...

In article <7p11tvl@rpi.edu> cleggp@aix.rpi.edu (Paul Jason Clegg) writes:
>Hmm...  Intriguing concept.  What happens if the modified result from the
>dice rolls moves you over or under the maximum results?
>
>Well, it's definitely a SIMPLE concept and easy to learn.  BUT it's very
>counter-intuitive for a GM to come up with stuff on the fly.  It's also
>very limited, because the results are limited to the seven results that 
>the stats/skills are defined as.
>

i *really* like this idea.  it is simple *and* i also think it is
pretty easy for the GM to do some on the go GM'ing.  I mean there
are adjectives for results so the GM can know exactly how good the 
player did and thus fill in the gaps with whatever he wants. and 
as for going over or under the seven, i think this could be a problem
but does anyone see a major badness about just saying if you go over
or under it just remains the best or worst?

>Will have to think on this concept a bit more before I can give a final
>opinion, but you definitely get marks for creative dice conventions!
>
>...Paul
>
>
>-- 
>+                +        +    +  + + +  +    +        +                +
>  Paul Clegg, cleggp@aix.rpi.edu.   Project Galactic Guide Coordinator.
>            System One RPG designer.   But generally unknown.
>+                +        +    +  + + +  +    +        +                +

this is a *really* nifty idea.
-- 
>>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------<<<
"It is human nature, I suppose to be futile and ridiculous"
"If the windmill should prove to formidable, I may see what can be done
           with the wind."            -Scaramouche (fks1@midway.uchicago.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca (David Lamb)
Subject: Re: net.rpg: Character Stats
Organization: Computing & Information Science, Queen's University at Kingston
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 17:59:20 GMT

In article <Bxu28F.Jrz@acsu.buffalo.edu> leet@acsu.buffalo.edu (Brian D. Leet) writes:
>
>  First of all i do not consider a stat a stat if it is text, and booleans
>are very very shaky ground as well.  Whats your race stat?  Your name stat?
>Do you have a 1 or 0 for the limps with left leg stat? 

I think they key idea behind a "stat" is "a totally ordered set of
values" - what I think you meant (later) when you said "quantifiable".
So boolean fits if "false" is meaningfully "less than" "true", but not
meaningful otherwise.  Thus ambidextrous:true implies greater
capabilities than ambidextrous:false.  But in a game with only 2
races, "race1:true" has no necessary order with respect to
"race1:false". (Actually, I think too many things are "yes/no".  I
view ambidexterity as having a range of values, eg. -20 to 0,
representing how much of a percentage disadvantage you have with your
off hand).

>This means that generally stats should not have to do with such things as:
>shape of body, attractiveness of character, presence or absence of some 
>feature.  They should instead reflect what forces that entity can affect opun
>their environment such as strength, understanding etc.

I think I agree on "shape" but not on "attractiveness".  There are
meaningful quantitative differenecs among different levels of
"attractiveness" - so it might make sense, in some variants, to
quantify them.  I admit it's not high on my list of priorities for
stats in role playing games, though.
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: cleggp@aix.rpi.edu (Paul Jason Clegg)
Subject: Re: net.rpg.slug: Action resolution
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 21:38:51 GMT

In article <1992Nov20.202532.2888@oz.plymouth.edu> sos@oz.plymouth.edu (Steffan O'Sullivan) writes:
>I *like* what a bell curve does at either end - that's what modifiers
>*should* do, as far as I'm concerned.  A slight advantage (say, +1)
>should be of more use to the average person than to the expert.  The
>expert is already so good that a slight help doesn't help him that much
>more.  The person with some exposure to a skill, but not expert, is
>helped a lot by a small advantage, and the person who is utterly inept
>at something isn't helped that much by a small advantage - he'd need a
>*big* modifier to be helped, he's so bad.  That's what a bell curve
>does; that's a good model of what I consider to be reality.

Okay, I can see what you're saying.  But consider this:  I think the main
gist of the whole net.rpg is moving towards "plug 'n play" modules, or at
least creating systems that appeal to as many people as possible.  Perhaps
we shouldn't look at the either/or picture of curve/linear system, but maybe
the BOTH.

Hmm.  That didn't come out like I'd like it to.  To paraphrase, I think that
perhaps we should try to come up with two INTERCHANGEABLE systems, one based
on a linear system, on a bell curve system.  To implement this idea is going 
to take a lot of work, particularly brainstorming, but I think it would
infinitely better to do BOTH systems, instead of just one.

Personally, I prefer linear systems (personally, d100!), because it's much
more flexible (that I've seen so far).  The point I see, though, is that you
can simulate a bell curve system IN a linear system with a little help, but
it's not as easy vice-versa.

...Paul


-- 
+                +        +    +  + + +  +    +        +                +
  Paul Clegg, cleggp@aix.rpi.edu.   Project Galactic Guide Coordinator.
            System One RPG designer.   But generally unknown.
+                +        +    +  + + +  +    +        +                +
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: ketil@ii.uib.no (Ketil M. Malde)
Subject: Re: net.rpg
Reply-To: ketil@ii.uib.no
Organization: student of numerical analysis at the University of Bergen, Norway
Date: 16 Nov 92 15:44:22

>>>>> On Thu, 12 Nov 92 23:12:07 EEZ, towo@swob.nullnet.fi (Mika Toivola) said:

	Mika> IMHO we don't need a lot of stats if by all means we can
	Mika> use skills (or any type of advantage/disadvantage system
	Mika> - in between a skill and a stat). Sorry haven't played
	Mika> the TW2000, but if I remember right about it characters
	Mika> are done by rolling the dice, an extremely dispisable
	Mika> idea for me. I'm all for point-created characters.

Well, you roll for stats and a few other things as well, but they
don't really mean much, and you can change them (by declaring to
'slight' or 'favor' them in advance)

I like it.

--
 = Ketil Malde                     In real life:  ketil@ii.uib.no =
 = Nuke the whales!                    Honk if you love unicorns! =
From:  (Spike)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: net.rpg
Date: 16 Nov 92 19:43:30 GMT
Followup-To: rec.games.design
Organization: GE Power Generation

>         Yeah, sounds good, sorry, I mean sounds OK for the game. If you 
> use a Top Secret SI -type "cross the damage boxes out" system, it 
> shouldn't even be too big a hassle. Why not give a minus to skill equal 
> to the damage the bodypart has taken that is being used?
> > 

Ugh. I *hate* Top Secret/S.I.'s method of handling damage. If you 
have 10 wound boxes per location,  you can take 9 boxes to each 
and still be walking around fine. I hosed a couple of really stupid 
players (I forget exactly what they did, but it was *dumb*!) with an
Uzi, they both got hit multiple times, and they both lived effortlessly.

Spike
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Dice
From: CDRESSER@eagle.wesleyan.edu (CLAYTON J. DRESSER)
Date: 16 Nov 92 21:43:47 EDT
Distribution: world
Organization: Wesleyan University
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.20Lines: 22


here are some opinions on dice use in a well-designed game reesponding to
previous posts.

1.  People love using different dice.  Perhaps not all people but part of the
fun is using dice that aren't just d6s.

2.  Try using just a few dice (like only d% and d6).  AD&D v.1, for example
went ahead and used all the dice in all the situations according to whim.  (Oh,
no where'd i put my four-siders, I have to roll 6-24 for number of monsters
encountered).  For example, they could have relatively easily based on monster
numbers or damage etc. on one die mechanic (as they did for hit dice).

3.  I don't think d6's offer enough spread for every mechanic.  You can make
the range wider by using more d6s but then you get a really steep bell curve
with a very small chance of rolling extreme numbers (e.g. consider rolling
8d6).  You can try something like reading the d6s as digits (then you could use
3d6 to roll from 111 to 666 with no numbers with digits other that 1-6
occurring - but as long as you're going to do that, you may as well use
percentile).

Clay
Newsgroups: rec.games.design,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.games.frp
From: kinsler@physics.uq.oz.au (Paul Kinsler)
Subject: Re: Stars (in T2300)
Organization: Telemat Development Unit, The University of Queensland
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 07:03:56 GMT

In article <Bxw8qy.7E7@nic.umass.edu>, dunkelza@titan.ucc.umass.edu (KEITH C MCCORMIC) writes:
|> In article <BxvEHu.BFA@cck.coventry.ac.uk> gdg019@cch.coventry.ac.uk (Ridley McIntyre) writes:
|> >In article <Af23KT200WBNQ7MZkP@andrew.cmu.edu> William Henry Timmins <wt0b+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
|> >The best one I have seen (I asked a similar question here and on sci.space)
|> >is a map and catalogue that comes with the 2300AD RPG. It gives you a map
|> >of stars near and around Sol and the catalogue lists their types and locations.
|> >
|>   The 2300AD maps are faked.  Several of the stars are renamed or ficticious. Don't bother.

Well, *how* faked?
You only say several are fixed - so can I assume almost all of the map (ie the rest
of it) is accurate?
-- 
+soluble fish+
"You people, you do not see the grandeur in the wind and stone and stars,
 in the blood and fire and iron - but paint only the flowers."
From:  (Spike)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: Net.rpg - "modularity"
Date: 16 Nov 92 18:35:57 GMT
Followup-To: rec.games.design
Organization: GE Power Generation

In article <1992Nov14.022721@IASTATE.EDU>, cffitzge@IASTATE.EDU (Charles F
Fitzgerald) wrote:
> Having just posted a rather lengthy article on genre differences, I
> am slightly loathe to respond here, however, I agree that the change
> in game mechanic can signal a change in genre to the player, that
> helps in getting into the correct frame of mind for that game.  Like-
> wise, a different record sheet style, possible use of miniatures also
> help signal a change in venue to the player and provide a "feel" of
> the new genre.

Okay, so how do we include different miniatures on the net?

Spike
From: smith@ctron.com (Lawrence C Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: NET.RPG: net.rpg FAQ
Date: 16 Nov 92 16:18:59 GMT
Reply-To: smith@ctron.com
Organization: Cabletron Systems, Inc.

In article <1992Nov13.022324.10307@alf.uib.no>, magnus@bark-fddi.ii.uib.no (Magnus Alvestad) writes:
>There will have to be a hit location chart for each major body type
>and one for each weird monster (like 3headed ogres). 

ARRGGHHH!!!  Talk about pain!  Why not just distribute hits to various
requisites (randomly or called) and relate the result back to the monster
description?  A one-pt hit to agility would be a minor leg wound, rather
than trying to determine a minor leg wound from a chart and then translate
that into a one-pt hit to agility.

>cffitzge said something important: If we can create characters just
>the way we want them to be, why should we look for advancement,
>adventure and all that? magnus thinks the fun should mainly be in the
>role-playing itself, not so much in advancement.

Magnus has a point, but it's my experience that people want to to see some
sort of reward for playing well.  Mages and clerics can get new magic, but
fighters and thieves have no such general advancement stat.  Some sort of
learning mechanism should be used, I think.

>jbridson (robert) is only one of several proposing weaknesses. If you
>play with a 'restricted' character generation, a weakness would give
>you extra points to distribute among positive attributes / abilities.

GURPS has lead to the worst min/maxing I've ever seen.  At one time, virtually
every member of the party was a barely mobile cripple - physical or mental.
If such a system is proposed, only a small number of characters should be able
to employ it - perhaps one in six, or perhaps it could be made class-dependant,
where mages might be very likely to have weird problems (5 in 6) but fighters
are usually well-adjusted (1 in 6).  Conversely, if magic is normal and fight-
ing isn't in your campaign, reverse.

>Nick_Janow thinks it is important that it's possible to create a
>completely random persona, with everything decided by the dice. This
>will bring an extra dimension of challenge into the roleplaying.

An option.

>Q12.	How do I improve?

>bell wants to give experience points for time played.

This is an intriguing idea.  I used to keep track of this in order to determine
how many starting points a new character would get for any given player.  If
you were a neophyte, you got a neophyte character, if you had been gaming for
years, you got a character commensurate with your experience.  None of this
"building up a character" nonsense.

Larry Smith (smith@ctron.com)  No, I don't speak for Cabletron.  Need you ask?
-
Liberty is not the freedom to do whatever we want,
it is the freedom to do whatever we are able.
From: leet@acsu.buffalo.edu (Brian D. Leet)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: net.rpg:Stats, Attributes, Skills
Date: 24 Nov 92 01:19:54 GMT
Organization: UB

Well I've been following the development of these sets of ideas in various
different threads and I just thought I'd post my current ideas to see what
reactions I get.

First of all the reaction to my stat tree was definitly mixed, although a 
bit more on the positive side I think.  The consensus seems to be that the
whole Energy branch was unneeded, and arbitrary.  It has been scrapped as far
as I am concerned.

The discussion regarding having some scores for the learning of skills is 
interesting but it strikes me that learning skills is a skill in itself.  So
how did you learn that skill?  This of course repeats in an endless loop.  
I think that any division between these categories is arbitrary.  Stats should
affect both the learning and performance of skills (but perhaps to a different
extent and different stats.)

The discussion of whether stats were current ability or innate (genetic) 
potential is also interesting.  I think that for obvious reasons of games
mechanics the stats tree should indicate the current abilities in an area.
Whether you want to have innate limits is another area.  I am operating on the
assumption that stats could be used "as is" to deal with situations for which
a character does not have an appropriate skill.

Finally I am still opposed to attempting to fit the skill tree under the stat
tree.  I find it fairly self-evident that some skills are influenced by more
than one stat.  I think any attempt to deal with it otherwise will be a 
horrible oversimplification.  I am assuming that if a skill is said to use
two substats, and your group just uses the one stat over them then you can 
simply use that stat instead, no problem.

Someone made mention to me that trying to keep the tree balanced may do more
harm then good. I'll try to keep that in mind next time although I still
think that a balanced tree is a "Good Thing".  Oh yeah, and if you are 
finding that you need to cross you stats, having some be products of others
and so forth maybe the basic stats need to be reworked.

					Just more musings,
						Brian Leet
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: magnus@bark-fddi.ii.uib.no (Magnus Alvestad)
Subject: Re: Net.rpg - "modularity"
Reply-To: magnus@ii.uib.no
Organization: UVBS -> SFK/T-DSA / SOPS - HOS / RNoN
	<2b08b572.4276@lhn.gns.cri.nz>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 18:13:09 GMT

>>>>> On Mon, 16 Nov 92 21:03:46 GMT , mdlcpgs@lhn.gns.cri.nz said:

	Phil> we did xyz instead"). Nothing as a monolith is going
	Phil> satisfy me nor I suspect even many of the people
	Phil> following this discussion. However the discussion is

Well, it will be modular. I've been thinking of a program for writing
out a version of the rules. For example:

net-rpg basic | lpr -Plp0

net-rpg all | lpr -Plp0
 
net-rpg basic+char-gen.pa+combat.realistic | lpr -Plp0

net-rpg all-*.cinematic | lpr -Plp0

net-rpg > /dev/null 	;-)

	Phil> modules (eg in combat I think there is an irresolvable
	Phil> difference between those who think combat is best
	Phil> simulated on a very detailed blow v blow system and
	Phil> those who see that combat is best simulated by outcomes
	Phil> of a series of feints/blows/movements). No one idea

We are considering a system which works on many levels. Ketil wrote
about this some hours back. Then you can choose which level to fight
each battle on, depending on time available, what the players/GM want,
how many are involved, how important the battle is to the campaign.

	Phil> without feeling happy at all. The net.rpg has thrown up
	Phil> a lot of modules to test and play with and this I think
	Phil> is its strength.

Well, at least we're good for something. :-) I do hope we finish this
game some day, though.

	Phil> 	$0.02 from Phil

And a dime from me.

-Magnus
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: dmatiske@nd.edu (David Matiskella)
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
Subject: Re: Net.rpg: Attributes
Date: 19 Nov 92 04:38:58 GMT
Followup-To: rec.games.design
Organization: University of Notre Dame

In article <1992Nov18.150149.10047@mailer.cc.fsu.edu>,
picl17@fsphy1.physics.fsu.edu (Jeffrey Johnson) wrote:
> 
> In article <1992Nov16.193447.25689@crd.ge.com>,  (Spike) writes...

> >Howard Gardener is a researcher working at one of
> >the big east-coast schools (Harvard, perhaps? I don't
> >recollect exactly) on the nature of human intelligence.
> >He proposed that what we lump under the broad label 
> >"Intelligence" is actually a collection of related, but
> >different intelligences: Kinesthetic, Linguistic, Mathematic
> >Spatial, Musical, Knowledge of Self and Knowledge of
> >Others. I have always felt that this would make a good
> >basis for a roleplaying game. Change Mathematic to 
> >Logical, Musical to a more generic Aesthetic, and 
> >rename the last two to the less-clunky Self-Awareness
> >(or even Intuition) and Social, respectively.
> 
> I considered a similar system for my own Omniverse game system,
> but ultimately rejected it for two reasons: number one, I wanted
> to keep the number of stats to a reasonable number (I already had
> six before the "intelligence" ones.  Number two, in talking to a
> psychologist friend about this, he pointed out that all of the
> categories of Intelligence are strongly correlated:  that is, that
> if you have a high score in one, you're very likely to have a high
> score in all of them.  Thus, it's more efficient to combine them
> all into a few scores and have advantages and disadvantages to give
> more specific kinds of intelligence.
> 
> Also, many of these intelligences fit into existing attributes.
> Kinesthetic and Spacial are part of Agility; Social is part of 
> Charisma.  Remember that psychologists don't neccesarily mean
> what most of us think of as intelligence when they use the term!
> 
> Travis Casey
> picl17@fsphy1.physics.fsu.edu
You would still need physical characteristics. I personally like strenght,
 speed/agility, and endurance for physical stats since I feel that they
describe accurately factors need simulate physical tasks.
		In the mental stats I put social/charisma, tenacity/willpower, Logic/IQ
The problem with stats like Aesthetic are what use are they? Sure it might
tell you how good of trumpet player the character is but I feel that could
be handled just as well by a skill.
Newsgroups: rec.games.design
From: bjbisset@eos.ncsu.edu (BILLY JOE BISSETTE)
Subject: net.rpg FAQ sugesstion
Originator: bjbisset@c00032-118dan.eos.ncsu.edu
Reply-To: bjbisset@eos.ncsu.edu (BILLY JOE BISSETTE)
Organization: Raise A Great Old One Foundation
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 00:02:16 GMT


 Just a quick suggestion:  While traffic on this topic is high, you might want
to keep releasing updated FAQs, or digests of the conversations and ideas.
If the updated idea list were posted often, say weekly or so, people could
better keep up with what is going on, and the direction that this behemoth is
proceeding in...
-- 
----------bill the insane cultist, bjbisset@eos.ncsu.edu
Please make a donation to the "Raise a Great Old One" Foundation.
Everyone chant with me:  Ph-nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
                         Ph-nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!