From: dwl@watson.ibm.com (David W. Levine)
Subject: Re: women and sailing
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1992 20:41:15 GMT
Reply-To: dwl@watson.ibm.com 
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Thomas J. Watson Research Center

In article <96400@netnews.upenn.edu>, karina@eniac.seas.upenn.edu
(Karina Haavik) writes:
|> OK, people, here are my thoughts on women and sailing.  I tried to
ignore this
|> thread, but it keeps going and going and going...
|> 
|> I think the primary problem with women and sailing is the obnoxious machismo
|> of some of the other participants, but it is *not* the over-agressive racing
|> braggadocio that you all have discussed.  Rather, it is the old-fashioned 
|> macho assumption that women are stupid, weak, and have no property rights.
|> 
|> Now I know that not all of you men out there are like that.  In fact,
most of 
|> you aren't.  But sometimes it only takes one jerk to ruin your whole day.  
|> There is something about even the idea of boating which seems to appeal to 
|> obnoxiously macho men.  I have been slimed by men who seemed to have never
|> even been in a boat, but assumed that by birthright they knew more about it
|> than I did.  I have had a man rip fibreglass off of my boat the
*wrong* way (to
|> show me how to do it "right") even after I told him to stop.  I have
had men 
|> treat me like an idiot and find that they had to revise their opinions.
|> 
|> Fewer of these problems have occurred within the context of a (dingy) club,
|> because it is a small friendly group which norms behavior.  But some still 
|> have, and I am working to educate those in question.  Usually they
mean well, 
|> and just don't understand how condescending they seem.  Why, just
last week, 
|> a guy asked me if I needed help reading the bulliten board.  I
sincerely hope
|> he was making a bad attempt at picking me up, because I can't think of any
|> other excuse.
|> 
|> Somebody here made a comment some posts back about whether on not to change 
|> racing rules to make it easier for women and how that could take the
life out 
|> of the sport.  I'm not a sailor yet (gotta fix that leak first), but I know
|> what the women I know want.  They don't want it to be easier, they want it
|> to be *possible*.  That means being treated with respect and helped to learn
|> under the same rules as the men, so they can have the same exciting sport
|> as the men.  I would suspect that the reason so many women are in
family-type
|> clubs is that they are more likely to be treated like people there than they
|> are if they join an all-male club alone.
|> 
|> So gentlemen, if you are trying to get more women active in your
clubs, here 
|> is my advice to you:  check out whether any of your club members are
die-hard 
|> macho jerks.  When you find them, try to educate them.  Then take a look at
|> how you present yourselves to women.  When they have a problem, do
you run to
|> be gallant and fix it, or do you explain it to them and let them do it 
|> themselves so they can learn from it?  Women are quite capable of
asking for 
|> help when they need it.  And of course, if they do ask for your help,
flexing
|> your muscles and treating them like the little woman isn't too endearing, 
|> either.
|> 
|> It's really not hard, and must of your probably understad this already.  I 
|> just wanted to clear the air for those of you who missed the point. 
The real
|> goal of feminism isn't that women get to break your balls or have it
both ways
|> or any of the other things that you've heard.  It's that we get to be
people 
|> too.  And on my boat for one, you don't get to screw up on that one.
|> 
|> And as for me, no, I don't have a harrier back than yours.  I'm just another
|> computer scientist who doesn't suffer fools gladly.  Unfortunately, I
look 11
|> years younger than I am, so I meet them ALL THE TIME!!!
|> --
|> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
|> Karina Haavik   ******  karina@seas.upenn.edu  ***  Comet #2970
|> It looks like a boat.   It leaks like a boat.       It must be a boat.
|> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------


Well, while I can't argue with your personal experience, it certainly doesn't
match up with what I've seen out on the water. I've raced in a number of
different settings and can't say I've seen anything about these settings
that was even as bad as what I've seen in other social, professional and
recreational settings. Which isn't to say that things, on the whole in our
society aren't sometimes less than fair, just that I don't see sailing as
worse than the norm. In particular, I don't see anything at all in the rules
or norms of keelboat sailing that would discriminate against women. There
are some jobs on some boats which descriminate against people without huge
bulging muscles, but heck, lots of us guys don't have huge bulging muscles.
There are also some classes of small boat that are really phsyical that
would limit women, but they also limit a lot of men. I don't have enough
upper body strength to compete in either Stars or Finns. (I've sailed a
Finn, Sheesh, you need some Schwarzeneger genes to keep one of those moving
in a good breeze)

Almost every boat I've ever been out on is just plain eager for people
who are interested and enthusiastic about sailing. In almost all boats
there are plenty of jobs, skilled, semi-skilled or unskilled that can be
done by anyone who doesn't mind getting cold and wet from time to time, and
given the difficulty of getting people to come out and race, I don't know
anyone who's in the business of scaring women away. 

I can think of specific clubs which have one or more institution which
might be viewed as sexist (Several have "mens bars") but I also know of
clubs with women commodores, boats which are owned and raced by women and
lots of women who crew on boats on a regular basis. 


David W. Levine --  dwl@watson.ibm.com  -- IBM Thomas J. Watson Research Center
                   -- My Opinions, IBM's hardware. -- 
"Fanaticism consists in redoubling your efforts when you have forgotten your
aim" - George Santayana