From: enigma@halcyon.com (Matt Luders)
Subject: Re: Could you guys give a girl some advice...
Organization: The 23:00 News and Mail Service
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 22:36:28 GMT

Crystal (crystal@glia.biostr.washington.edu) writes:

>Ahh...but if he ever changes his mind, at least he *knows* how you feel, and
>may be more likely to take a chance on asking you out if he doesn't think he'll
>be rejected.  Mind reading never works...

If he ever changes his mind (i.e. he now wants to take her out), then he
should simply ask her out.  Does any woman really want a man who's so afraid of
rejection that he can't muster the courage to ask her out?  Actually, in my
experience, a woman will always send definite signals if she's willing to go
out with you, or for that matter, if she's not.  Does she smile when she sees
you?  Does she compliment you?  Does she laugh when she's with you?  Does she
flirt with you?  Does she refrain from mentioning a boyfriend?  There are lots
of ways to send a very clear message without blurting it out.


>>The thing to do in this situation is try to find out *why* he doesn't
>>want to date you, and if you are willing and able to do anything about it.
>
>HOLD IT!!!!  Adjusting yourself to fit another's ideas is NOT good advice!
>Be yourself at all times!  If you wish to change something about yourself
>based on what this fellow may say, then MAKE THE CHANGE FOR YOURSELF! When
>one changes to fit another's mold, you give up a vital piece of your own
>identity.

I couldn't agree with you more, Crystal.  That's why I said *willing* and able.
Any change she makes should be one that she wants to make *anyway*, regardless
of anyone else's opinion.  But, if the guy is reluctant to ask her out because
of something she wants to change anyway, then I see nothing wrong with making
that change.


>>First, try to find out without asking him directly.  This may spare you some
>>embarrassment.
>
>Hidden agenda detective work, likewise...poor advice.

Why is it poor advice?  Let's say the reason the guy doesn't want to date her
is because she seems too meek and quiet.  But let's also say that, in fact,
she's very outgoing and gregarious--she's just been subconsciously toning it
down around him to avoid scaring him off.  If she can find this out from a
mutual friend, then she can avoid the following uncomfortable conversation:

She:  Gee, I think you're a really neat guy...
 He:  Uh, thanks.
She:  ...and I'd really like to go out with you.
 He:  *gulp* (thinks to himself: I really don't want to go out with this girl,
              but I also don't want to hurt her feelings.  What should I do?)

My guess is, in this situation, the guy would probably take her out once,
to avoid hurting her feelings, and then just not call her, or possibly LJBF
her.  I'm curious how she already *knows* the guy doesn't want to date her.
It seems to me they must either already have a mutual friend whom she got this
information from, or she must have talked to him about it already.


>Making assumptions based on little or no facts can only cause problems.  

Agreed.  So what are the facts?  Somehow she's discovered that he doesn't
want to date her.  That's the only fact she has.  What she needs to know is
why.  He may or may not be willing to tell her.  Let's say the reason is
because he thinks she's not intelligent enough for him.  Do you really
expect him to come out and say something like this:

"Gee, I'd really like to go out with you, but you just don't seem smart
 enough for me."

I suppose it's possible, but a statement like that would contradict everything
I know about male behavior.


>Try to stay away from dysfunctional co-dependent thinking.

Amen.


>And if he's NOT a nice guy...well, this is the best time to find out - before
>you have invested too much emotional energy into trying to second guess him.

I think asking someone why they don't want to date you (and enduring the uneasy
mood it will doubtless create between the two of you) takes at least as much
emotional energy as trying to find out indirectly.  I'm not against a direct
discussion if it becomes necessary, but why should she bare her feelings and
make herself vulnerable if she doesn't have to?


  "  Julia: They do not love that do not show their love.
   Lucetta: O! They love least that let men know their love."

     -- William Shakespeare, Two Gentlemen of Verona  (1595) 


Matt

P.S.  Go Huskies! :-)