HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: >suggestion<
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 05:52:24 GMT

pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey) writes:
: [Regarding info on the ancients]
: 
: pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey) writes:
: There are paleolithic, pre-literal, tribes surviving to this day.
: 
: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
: It tells us a bit about what such societies may have believed or practiced,
: but that is all.
: 
: Well, of course there is no absolute proof that their beliefs are the same
: as the ancients. There is a lot of scientific evidence that that is the
: case with the obvious caveat that nothing is stationary, not even the written
: word. But at the minimum, paleolithic beliefs are significantly different than
: modern beliefs. They would seem to be a valuable source of other ways to
: view the world. Just the development of reading substantially changes the
: ways we view the world, not to mention anything about the domestication of
: plants and animals and the dependency on just a few sources of food.

Exactly. There is quite a bit of evidence about how the people lived, there
is little evidence about what they believed. That was my point, nothing more.

I was just complaining about people claiming that they were drawing from
"ancient traditions prior to the patriarchal religions", when we have little
or no evidence of what these traditions and practices might have been.

Bill
From: krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Overthrow "THE MAN" symbolically, was (Who cares)
Date: 28 Jul 92 09:05:58 GMT
Organization: The Meltdown - A Team Star BBS

In article <1992Jul28.173109.8027@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com>, billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com
(bill nelson) writes:
>Funny how there are intolerant people in every group you encounter -
>including those that are treated the worst by 'normal' society. The biggest
>problem is that these same people are totally blind to their hypocrisy.

Hmmm...  I know I'm probably getting a bit off topic, but I just ran across
another version of how some people want the pendelum to swing to the far
side, rather than hitting a balance...

A good friend of mine from Circle, Linda, decided to go to a local park for
her lunch break during the working week.  It was her favorite park, because
of the local scenery.

A gay person (I refuse to call this person a gentleman) approached Linda and
told her to leave the park because she wasn't a homosexual.  Breeders were
NOT welcome there.  (Keep in mind that Linda not only hadn't said two words
to anyone there, but also is in full support of "Gay/Lesbian Rights"...

Ahh well, we now return you to your regularly scheduled newsgroup while I
fiddle with this neckbrace that I got as an award for being involved in an
auto accident today...

Krikket               ! krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us ! USnail:3 Danada Square E.
a.k.a Doug Krick      ! Team Star Charter Member   !        Suite 246
Data ph# 708/665-9732 ! #include<std.disclaimers>  !        Wheaton, Il 60187

 'If you are what you eat, then I'm Dead Meat'  -- Timbuk 3 "Grand 'ol Party"
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: another piddly question from you know who
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Keywords: Tarot  
Date: 27 Jul 92 05:46:42 GMT

This is a less than important post, so if you're stuck at home using a
slow modem, hit 'n' now.

In article <2A736ACD.8879@noiro.acs.uci.edu> cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>*static crackle*
>
>We interrupt your regularly scheduled flamefest for the following
>bulletin:

[I ask about a card in the Art Nouveau deck]

Someone got back to be and told me it was the Magician -- I'm getting
the deck.  I sat on my bed and DROOLED over the picture (barely a 1/2"
wide) and it took me an hour before I realized that the damned thing was
a dead ringer for my boyfriend, the ever-fantastic Mikey.  Talk about
weird!

Oh, well.  A less-than-vital post, but what the hell.  Sometimes it's
nice to have something trivial to talk about . . .

Blessings,
Janis
 

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: alt.wicca, anyone?
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 07:39:18 GMT

idfraser@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca (Ian Fraser) writes:

>I'm in favor of soc.religion.wicca, a moderated newsgroup. (I've already 
>voted, please disregard this, Wolfe) The bifg advantage, it seems to me, 
>is that this would prevent the "Attack of the Killer Fundies", and the 
>resultant wasted bandwidth.

Who would moderate it?  How can we be certain that the moderator will not 
filter with certain (perhaps even unconscious) biases which others would
disagree with.  Could we end up with the "correct" Wicca being the only one 
expressed?  

All in all, I think I would rather cope with the fundie Christians than the
fundie Witches.  And they do exist!

              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
                               Br'anArthur

Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: radzy@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (Tim Radzykewycz)
Subject: Re: alt.wicca, anyone?
Organization: International Computer Science Institute, Berkeley, CA, U.S.A.
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 01:17:53 GMT

>In article <92202.160459J5J@psuvm.psu.edu>, J5J@psuvm.psu.edu (John A. Johnson) writes:
>>Should not the name therefore be alt.pagan.wicca?
>>
>>I support the idea, although I'm not sure whether we have enough
>>wiccans desiring to post with such precise focus to justify the
>>subgroup.

cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
> I just wonder if it will REALLY be wiccan, or just composed of all the
> alt.pagan denizens who subscribed out of curiosity and just started
> posting out of habit.  We could be looking at just Offspring of
> alt.pagan, pt. II here.

I suspect Janis is right.  I doubt that very many people would want
to post to one, but not the other.  On the other hand, it might
be useful to *move* the group to soc.religion.wicca, so it isn't an
"alt" group any longer.

To me, the real question is this:  how many people feel that alt.pagan
is not an appropriate place to post things, and would prefer to post
the stuff to soc.religion.wicca or alt.pagan.wicca INSTEAD OF alt.pagan?
(NOT in addition to it)

I suspect there aren't too many such people.  Like some of Krikket's
friends/acquaintances, *I* feel that alt.pagan already is the wiccan
newsgroup, for the most part.

Personally, I also enjoy the diversity that *is* present here.  People
like Eshin-Fun (whom I presume is not wiccan) make for more variety
than would be the case if only wiccans posted.  I hope that either the
group isn't created, or that the traffic in the two groups is small
enough that I don't have to choose which one of them not to read any
longer.  I *DO* have a limited amount of time to read news, and I
already stretch it just between alt.pagan and soc.bi (which I already
only read about a quarter of!)

I usually don't vote "no" on these things, and I won't vote "no" if
this ever comes to a vote.  But I really strongly doubt that creation
of a "wicca" newsgroup will serve any purpose, other than increasing
net traffic (because soc.religion.* is more visible than alt.pagan
is) and increasing the number of crossposts (because people will
crosspost to alt.pagan and soc.religion.wicca).

Then again, I could be wrong.  If there *are* a bunch of people
who feel that alt.pagan isn't appropriate for wiccan posts, please
post that you feel that way.  If I see enough such posts, perhaps
I'll change my "abstain" to a "yes".

BTW: if anyone feels like there should be a vote, please make sure
that you crosspost the call for votes to the appropriate admin
newsgroup.

Bear Blessings!

------------------------------------------------------------
					|  An it harm none,
	-- radzy			|  do as ye will.
					|
	Tim Omelan Radzykewycz     	|  "Just pray for a
	The Incredible Radical Cabbage	|  tough hide and a
					|  tender heart."
	radzy@icsi.berkeley.edu	        |    -- Ruth Graham
					|
------------------------------------------------------------
> Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in!
From: pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Who cares
Date: 22 Jul 92 20:23:48 GMT
	<1992Jul21.100930.41773@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> 
	<2A6CA0C7.299@noiro.acs.uci.edu> 
	<1992Jul22.122642.13162@linus.mitre.org>

In article <1992Jul22.122642.13162@linus.mitre.org> 
heimberg@pacific.mitre.org (Jeff Heimberger) writes:
>Abortion is an issue that doesn't happen to concern me -- does that make
>me bad?

Well, see what happens is that issue may not directly concern you, but if
someone gets away with something, they'll be coming for you next, see what
I'm saying. You know for some reason this reminds me of some history. Back
in WWII, somebody got the idea of eliminating the Jewish race. Now most
of these factories for meeting this goal where in Poland. I'm not blaming
Poles, but there were far too many who took a job where maybe they shouldn't
have. You see what some people didn't realize was that when the problem of
the Jews and Gypsies and homosexuals and communists was taken care of, the
Slavic people were to be next. A crime against the individual is a crime
against us all. Just something to think about, that's all.
From: holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: stereotypes - and a request
Date: 24 Jul 92 22:12:40 GMT
Organization: FERMILAB
X-Posted-From: fnalno.fnal.gov
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <12444@inews.intel.com>, pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey) 
writes:
>>> I suspect a lot of this is just
>>> that a lot of people want the oppressed to act like Martin Luther King and
>>> instead they act like Malcolm X. 
> 
> In article <1992Jul22.153618.1@fnalno.fnal.gov> 
> holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman) writes:
>>You'd be dead wrong if you classified me as one such.  Ask me what I think of
>>Ice-T's latest album some time.
> 
> Oh, what the heck, I'm hyper than pinochio's nose 'cause I'm a super-Cali
> fragilistic tic tac pro. OK what do you have to say? Now I assume you are 
> talking about the heavy metal group Body Count and Cop Killer? 

That would be the album, yes, although I would talk about more than siply the
song Cop Killer.

Having heard the song  (CK) and read the lyrics, I find the song to be an 
expression of Ice-T's (and by extension representative of many people in his 
community) frustrations with the treatment they receive from the LAPD in South 
Central Los Angeles.  (No big revelation so far.)  I am unsympathetic towards
police who are worried by the content of the songs.  They've earned it.

I think that too much attention is paid to CK and not enough to the other 17
pieces on Body Count.  Ice-T raises a great number of pressing issues and
raises good points in exploring them.

He's not taking MLK's approach, and I don't blame him one bit.

> Probably
> destined to become the big election issue and yet another glaring example
> of how the arts have ruined our great and noble Pat Boone culture. So whatsup 
> with that? [Yo, wake up, you're on point]

The furor seems to have died down over Body Count faster than it did over
Murphy Brown.

-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
TEAM STAR Charter Member             | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: heimberg@pacific.mitre.org (Jeff Heimberger)
Subject: Re: Who cares
Organization: The MITRE Corporation
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 11:48:50 GMT

In article <1992Jul26.160703.19444@u.washington.edu> mkkuhner@phylo.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner) writes:
>As long as you define, even in metaphorical language, the sin of the
>patriarch as being a white man, rather than being an oppressor, you will
>make it practically impossible for white men to adopt your
>recommendations.  I can put aside my attitudes and my actions, but my
>race and gender are givens.  I cannot change them, and I would only be
>lying to myself if I denied them.

Very well said -- thank you for the insight.

Regards,

Jeff H...
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: erc@unislc.uucp (Ed Carp)
Subject: Too many Irrelevancies
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 18:34:41 GMT

I've been wading through the past 100 articles or so, and the thing that's
struck me the most about most of them is how devisive and argumentative
they all are.  I honestly don't understand what someone's personal sexual
orientation has to do with being pagan (or not being pagan), nor gay rights,
or who worships what, or what they call it (God/Goddess/It/Whatever).  This
is all devisive, people, and it's gonna bite us all in the ass one day soon.

With the number of people out there who think that we are Satanists/evil-people/
whatever, and would rather see us burned at the stake, it's my opinion that
we'd all better stop arguing over who's diety is better and if being gay makes
one a better pagan, and start pulling together.  Otherwise, we're going to
wake up real soon to the knocking at our door, and it's probably going to be
a cop with handcuffs, ready to drag us off to some jail somewhere for
"worshipping Satan" or some such blather.  How would *you* like to be the
one to be told to sit in the back of the bus, or refused service at a
restaurant, or have a cross burned in *your* front yard?  We're not too
distant from the 50's and 60's to not have it happen again.
-- 
Ed Carp, N7EKG     erc@apple.com                801/269-8125
"This is the final task I will ever give you, and it  goes  on  forever.   Act
happy, feel happy, be happy, without a reason in the world. Then you can love,
and do what you will."           -- Dan Millman, "Way Of The Peaceful Warrior"
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: leighann@sybase.com (Leigh Ann Hussey Oster)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: the work "warlock"
Date: 28 Jul 92 16:21:18 GMT
Organization: Annwn

"Warlock" = "oathbreaker" only in some etymologies.  If you check into a
dictionary of Old Norse, you will find (along with the referenced quote
from Eirikssaga Haraldsonar) that "Warlock" <= "Vardh-lokkur" (dh = edh,
the d with a slash that sounds like th in "the") or "Urdhar-lokkur",
which translates to "spirit songs".  This is from the scene where the
prophetess can't prophesy because nobody there knows the spirit songs,
until they find one girl who knows them but says she won't sing them
because she's Christian now...

(Full references and other bs*t on demand, but warn me so that I can
bring my books to work.)

B*B
Leigh Ann
--
Leigh Ann Hussey Oster
leighann@sybase.com			DoD#5913	AMA#624549
Siobhan ni hEodhusa
"They're mine!  All mine!  And what's mine is mine!" - Daffy Duck
From: mitch@novavax.UUCP (Mitch Silverman)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Who cares
Date: 26 Jul 92 10:23:05 GMT
Reply-To: mitch@novavax.nova.edu (Mitch Silverman)
Organization: Nova University, Fort Lauderdale, Florida

In article <1992Jul21.110732.41778@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> kumagic@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (Stephen R. Figgins) writes:

>Even I treat men with more caution than I do women.  I don't know how
>heinous this discrimination is, I just don't trust men very much.  In
>general I expect white men to be oblivious to the pain and suffering
>they cause, the fear they generate.  They just don't seem to see it.
>So I don't trust them.  

Would you care to elaborate?  There's a fine line between being more self-
aware (and more aware of others) on the one hand, and merely (you should
pardon the expression) crucifying oneself on the other.  I try to do the
former, but do the latter too often for my own good already, IMO.

Mitchell L. Silverman
Student, New College of the University of South Florida
mitch@cfraix.cfr.usf.edu
mitch@novavax.nova.edu
From: pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: stereotypes - and a request
Date: 21 Jul 92 19:25:10 GMT

previously on a.p krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick) writes:
>>>I also see a bunch of feminists who don't want equal rights, but superior 
>    ----------------
>>>rights.  That is it is before THAT point that I feel the pendulum shold 
>>>be stopped at!

In article <krikket.4919@meltdown.chi.il.us> 
krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick) writes:
>Okay...  Thanks for quoting me *OUT OF CONTEXT*.  This entire line of debate
>from >MY< end, has been refering to the *STEREOTYPICAL* feminist.  In this
>case (from my perceptive) the EXTREMISTS (which are in the MINORITY) get
>this dubious "award".

I apologize for quoting you out of context. That was not my intent, but 
someone has to edit these posts down to a reasonable size. My question still
remains: Can you name some of these *STEREOTYPICAL* feminists and some of
these EXTREMISTS feminists? Can you at least define briefly how their
causes differ and how they oppress men or propose to oppress men? I really
want to know if any of our women representatives are guilty of this fault
you are refering to.

>>What should men be prepared to give up and what should we refuse to give
>>up? Where should the battle lines be drawn? ...

>I've already stated what the ideal would be (IMHO).  Now it is a matter of 
>working toward that goal. We are NOT talking about the removing of rights 
>from men. Or the giving of rights to women. We are talking about allowing 
>people to accept one another for who they are, rather than what kind of 
>body their brain is housed in.

OK. Let me try an example. Should one's salary be independent of one's sex?
How do you propose achieving this equality without reducing the salary of
men? If you just bump up women's salaries to compensate, then you fuel
inflation which effectively reduces men's salaries. Another example? Let's
say that there will be four upper management slots opening up in your
company in the next four years. If you are a man and women are allowed to
compete for these positions on an equal basis, your odds of getting in are
reduced, aren't they? What about rape? The only realistic way I see of
reducing it is to make it easier to convict offenders and that would mean a
greater number of innocent would be found guilty. Maybe if women see that
men are waging war, they will choose the accusations of rape and sexual
abuse as weapons. It seems to me men have a lot to give up and they had
better be careful in the ways they choose to handle the situation, after all
women are hardly a minority in the sense of numbers. The only question is 
what and where and when. As for me I say fine, its time has come. If I could 
eliminate the existance of the ghetto in the US by reducing my income in half,
I would do it. If I must share half of my wealth with my sisters, I would do 
it. Maybe that makes me one of those EXTREMISTS you mention.
From: wolfe@wolves.uucp (G. Wolfe Woodbury)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Who cares - gay rights
Date: 25 Jul 92 05:09:19 GMT
Organization: Red Wolfe @ The Wolves Den
X-Md4-Signature: 4dfb07e0c468e8bbc0b5ee36edc3c4c9

heimberg@pacific.mitre.org (Jeff Heimberger) writes:
>aaldrich@geppetto.encore.com (Al Aldrich) writes:
>>tmhoff@oogoody.Corp.Sun.COM (Todd Hoff) writes:
>>>5. Oppress and descriminate against homosexuals. I didn't do it.
>>But what do you do to support gay rights now?
>But what do gay rights activists do to support hetero rights now?
	:
><Donning flame retardant underwear...>

You're going to need it!   You've happend to punch one of my buttons!

Flame On!

	You sniveling little heterosexual breeder!  Where did you ever
learn to think?  I guess you're just being driven by your hormones and
reacting to the "social norms" that inhibit your compassion.

Flame off.

[Note: that is a classic Usenet flame, lots of personal animosity based ]
[on absolutely no facts or knowledge. :-)                               ]

	Now, a little more rationally and seriously.

	One of the main points that the Lesbian/Gay/Bisexual movements
hold is that protecting their rights *is* protecting the rights of
everyone to live their lives without undue interference from the
government.  The lessons of history are abundantly clear, the path to
totaliatarian tyranny begins with the suppression of minority opinions
and behaviours.

	Consider also the various individual liberty movements of the
current political scene (e.g. the pro-choice movement, the
anti-censorship movement).  Among the folks in the forefront of the
battle lines in these movements are the warriors who have been tempered
and tried in the battles of the LGB movement.  Those fighting for
individual liberties are well aware of the inter-dependence that all of
the movements have on each other.  One of the favorite tactics of the
forces of conformity and "christian" morality is to attempt to sow
dissention in the rank of their opposition by insinuations that those
supporting the various ideals are "faggots/dykes/bisexuals or even
pagans!"

	This is one reason that I am not suprized to see so many persons
with alternative sexual lifestyles in the ranks of the (neo-)pagan
revival movement.  One of the basic points of the pagan religions that I
am aware of is that each person is their own judge of who they are and
what is correct for them.  The first principle of self-determination is
at the base of all these movements.
-- 
G. Wolfe Woodbury @ The Wolves Den UNIX, Durham NC         [use the maps!]
UUCP: ...dukcds!wolves!wolfe   ...duke!wolves!wolfe    <Standard disclaimers>
Domain: wolfe%wolves@cs.duke.edu    wolfe@cds.duke.edu
    Above all, we celebrate.   Celebrate the Circle Statement of Purpose
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: alt.wicca, anyone?
Date: 23 Jul 92 08:45:38 GMT
Organization: The Meltdown - A Team Star BBS

In article <BrrrL9.E7z@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A.
Davis-Howe) writes:

>If s.r.w ws formed, I would not want a.p to go away.  It should exist so that
>there is a format for all those pagans out there who are not Wiccan.

Agreed...  While there is a large following of the "StarHawk" crowd here, there are people who use the "StarHawk Wiccan" info, but aren't wiccan.  And many other forms of Paganism that aren't Wiccan are represented here too.

This group should >NOT< become soc.religion.wicca, with the disolvement of this newsgroup.  But the starting of the newsgroup would be a good idea.

Krikket               ! krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us ! USnail:3 Danada Square E.
a.k.a Doug Krick      ! Team Star Charter Member   !        Suite 246
Data ph# 708/665-9732 ! #include<std.disclaimers>  !        Wheaton, Il 60187

 'If you are what you eat, then I'm Dead Meat'  -- Timbuk 3 "Grand 'ol Party"