HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: m21757@mitre.org (G)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: 'burqa and muslim women'
Date: 9 Apr 92 15:12:17 GMT
Article-I.D.: linus.1992Apr9.151217.28249
Organization: The MITRE Corporation

In article <1992Apr8.235903.20688@sarah.albany.edu> 
ys3359@sarah.albany.edu (Yazmasterj) writes:
>         I don't know what you mean about being against hijaab in the
>         "true sense".  I do not believe in the traditional view that
>         a woman must be covered from head to foot except for her eyes
>         and hands.  I do not believe that a woman should be in a
>         female-only environment at all times (unless she is with her
>         husband or some other non-marryable family member).  I do not
>         believe a woman must stay in the home and not work.  I most
>         emphatically do not believe that a woman must obey her husband.
>         Concerning modesty, I have a personal code of modesty which
>         I follow.  I would not presume to impose these rules on anyone
>         else and thus do not believe in state imposed rigid dress codes.
>         I think that's between the person in question and the
>         deity/conscience they hold dear.

I commend you!    The idea of women covering everything but the hands and 
face comes from a Sahih hadith (Muslim)  wher a _man_ asks the prophet 
(PBUH)  how a woman should dress (i.e. what a woman can show).  Rasulallah 
did not _say_ anything but rather pointed to the head and arms.  I believe 
this is now understood as face and hands.  The concern here then is: 
Rasulallah has said not to ask too many questions of him in their zeal to 
be the best Muslim, otherwise their would be too many restrictions on the 
people; and he did not want the peoples life to be too difficult.  
Secondly according to this Hadith, women may _not_ show their feet, since 
Rasulallah did not point to the feet.  So if we follow this hadith exactly 
all women should wear socks all the time!!!

Food for thought...and discussion.

G
From: ahussain@prism.poly.edu (Arshad Hussain)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: Constitution
Date: 9 Apr 92 21:50:30 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Polytechnic University, New York

>From: mughal@iago.caltech.edu (ASIM M MUGHAL)
>Subject: Re: Constitutional Amendment

>>Mr. Shahid Masud no one gives a damn to this damn constitutional
>>ammendment. Its the worlds sickest thing people have ever seen. Did ever
>>constitutions deside other peoples religions ?
>>not bloody constitutions!

>   No, Rana Sahib, it is not okay. I resent your language towards 
>the constitution of Pakistan. You may have religious or personal difference 
                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  
>with someone and may discuss it at any length. 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Mughal sahib, do you know what is PUNISHMENT of discussing, preaching,
these things for him under the LAW? Up to 3 Years jail. This PUNISHMENT has
constitutional BLESSING. 

Rana has been discriminated, humiliated,insulted throughout his life
 based on that sacred ammendment. 

>Pakistan Zindabad

   PAKISTAN ZINDABAD
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: nadeem@deathstar.Stanford.EDU (Nadeem Hussain)
Subject: Re: Another Question from Nasir Ahmed Noor
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 05:13:43 GMT

khant@topaz.ucq.edu.au writes:


>That is my best suggestion to you.  Have you got any logic which say that

>a man is very liked by Allah and died in toilet.  I thin we those who can
. . .
>have died in a toilet, a worse place in the world to die.  Is not it enough 

>for the defination of a worse ever man in the world. I think that is an easy

>to understand logic to prove a fitna.  I have read that your Ghulam Qadiyani

>Just see through a simple logic how come a man who is died in toilet, can 

>be a Rasool or nabi. I think it is enough for a child to understand that a 

Absolutely hilarious ... what a fucking buffoon ... Is that propositional
logic, first-order or second-order predicate logic?

I never knew the following was an analytic truth:
If a person dies in (on?) a toilet he is bad and cannot be a prophet.

Is that folded into the meaning of the term toilet or is the hypothetical
deduced from other more fundamental principles?  Wouldn't you still need a
major premise connecting the predicates 'toilet' and 'bad'?

We also, I am sure you have all realized, have finally found a naturalistic
reduction of value terms ... yaay !!!  No more fact/value distinction ...
hmmm maybe we have a toilet/all other medium sized physical objects
distinction?

What happens if you die while having a shit squatting beside a wall?  What
exactly are the identity conditions of a toilet?  Is it a natural kind?

What if you just happen to die at a spot that someone else just happened to
have a shit or a piss ... maybe hundreds of years ago?

Personally I'd love to die while on the toilet (an awkward phrase I will grant)
It's where I have some of my greatest thoughts.

Have a good evening and may you all have enjoyable shits ... just be careful
you don't die!

Nadeem.


Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: mughal@iago.caltech.edu (ASIM M MUGHAL)
Subject: Re: Ahmadis vs Non-Ahmadis
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.40    
Organization: California Institute of Technology
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 20:09:00 GMT

In article <92100.103246BUTTS@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>, Sabaa Butt<BUTTS@QUCDN.QueensU.CA> writes...
>Though this marathon-no-holds-barred debating session of Ahmadis vs Non-Ahmadis
>has yet to come to an *unprecedented* outcome, its really not that difficult to
>resolve this issue. All it needs is a little bit of tolerance and the capacity
>to get rid of ethnocentrism, of the belief that only our own ideas and convicti
>ons are true and correct. I know there is always the temptation to impose one's
		[deleted]

>Truth, Goodness and Beauty are not the monopoly of any one individual or group.
> 
>Sabaa.

	Although, I don't disagree with your thoughts in general, I tend to
disagree with their validity on the issues being discussed. As I understand
the situation, correct me if I'm wrong;

	One smaller number of people are claiming to belong to a bigger
group. The people in the bigger group are declining to take them in as 
one of them. :) The `litmus test' seems to be whether the belief includes
prophethood beyond Hazart Muhammad (SWT). 

	This is a general as I can get without dipping my foot in the 
water. I will jump in when the time is right ;)

___________________________________________________________________________
Asim M Mughal				
"I can't remember anything...
  can't even tell if its true or dream... " 
			- Metallica
[Standard Disclaimer]

Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: nadeem@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca (Kamran Aftab)
Subject: Re: EID MUBARAK TO YOU ALL!!!
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 02:39:17 GMT

In article <1992Apr4.223110.5816@ccu.umanitoba.ca> umnoor@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Nasir Ahmed Noor) writes:
>
>Regards
>Nasir Ahmed Noor
>umnoor@ccu.umanitoba.ca

Eid Mubarak to you too!  :-)


-- 
Kamran Aftab 				Stop! before you press that "r" (or R),
aftab@mech.eng.mcmaster.ca		<------- that's my e-mail address!
From: umnoor@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Nasir Ahmed Noor)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: The FALSE prophet from Qadiyaan
Date: 7 Apr 92 15:35:53 GMT
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada



Utterly disgusting---indeed!
You yourself and your filthy writings.

You *claim* to be Muslim. One of the teachings of Islam (which Hazrat
Muhammad P.B.U.H closely followed) is to respect the noble figures of
other religions. In this case, its not another *religion* but just another
sect and look what kind of filth you mouth is excreting.

You are not worth my time. You have proved to be of a special breed of
Maulvis who are paid to be just garbage excretors. Compare yourself 
to Mr. Mubarak, Mr. Son of Woman, etc and you will come to know
the difference between a knowledgeable person and the one who can only
shout abuses from outside.

If you want my reply to your letter, repost it with all filth cleared
up (which you seem to ba uncapable of).


Nasir Ahmed Noor
umnoor@ccu.umanitoba.ca
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: nabeel@sce.carleton.ca (Nabeel Ghuzlaan)
Subject: Friday Chapter (Prophets after the Prophet)
Organization: Carleton University
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 04:12:53 GMT


3040_3744@uwovax.uwo.ca writes:

[Deletions]

>You are quoting things out of context that's all and delebrately trying to
>deceive people on the net work. But it is not fair game. If you are honest and
>fair thatn why you are hiding those Ahadiths and the verses of the Holy Quran
>which clearly tells that there would be a prophet in the later days from the
>Muslim Ummah. Read the first few verses of Surah Juma and the Hadith which give
>the interprtation of "Akhareen-a-Minhum". It will make your mind very clear if
>you are honest are truth seeker.

>If you still have any problem let me know.   
> 

   I wonder how that Hadith was quoted out of context while the author gave
the whole Hadith!
   I, too, looked into the Friday Chapter verses 2-3:
   "It is He who has sent amongst the unlettered a messenger from among
themselves to rehearse to them His signs, to purify them, and to instruct
them in the Book and Wisdom although they had been before in manifest
error.  Alongwith others of them who have not already joined them and He
is exalted in Might, Wise."
   [Footnote:] "Others of them, i.e. others than those among whom the holy
Prophet came as a messenger. In other words his Message is for his Arab
people and his non-Arab contemporaries as well as those who live in other
ages, and have no personal contact with him or his Companions."

   Those were not my words. And also how could he have sent people who had
not been created? Note the pronoun: "others of THEM": ("akhareena minHUM").
(Refers to those whom the Prophet was sent to them.)

>How do you know which Hadith is more authentic than the other. Only that fits
>your interpretation is more authentic and others which goes against your views
>are less authentic. Its shameful to disregard some Ahadiths just to suite your
>needs. You should be very careful in saying those things.

   I do not know what more authentic means, but I remember that Hadiths about
Mahdi were contradictory and none/most of them was reported by Muslim or
Bukhari. And I know that the quoted Hadith was reported there and recognized
by all Muslim sects! By the way, try to explain the Hadith and show its
correct context!

   Before bashing us, why don't you work out the huge difference between you
and Aziz and Hussain, who are quoting Ghulam Sahib to deny any prophets
after Muhammad?
Xref: sparky soc.culture.pakistan:6144 soc.culture.indian:13798
Organization: Central Michigan University
Date: Monday, 6 Apr 1992 04:50:15 EDT
From: Mahfooz Ahmed Jafry <32JMVQG@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: 'Qadiyani, mizaj kharab and shairi'

Salam Alaikum :   To regular readers :

      Mr. Butt is angry on religion ? Qadiyanese tire punctured they have nothi
ng important to write 'it is beating on the bush' what is about some urdu shari
ri and bait bazi:  There are two kinds of bait bazi one starts with the last wo
rd of the sher and one on the topic : I am wrting few on the topic 'Zindagi' an
d would like that brothers may contribute some beautiful ashar on 'zindagi' und
er this particular title : It is better if you can quote shaers name also :

       'Hai kabhi jaan aur kabhi taslime jan hai zingadi
        Bartarf andeshai sooze zian hai zindagi              iqbal

        'Zindagani ki haqeeqat koh kan ke dil say pooch
         joy sheer wo teeshea sange giran hai zindagi        iqbal

        'main ne poocha ke zindagi kiya hai
         jam hathon say gir ke toot giya          Namaloom

        'Zindagi kiya hai anasir ka zahoore tarteeb
         moot kiya hai inhi agza ka parishan hoona

A little detract but nice one by Ghalim

         'Hasti key mat faraib main ajiio asad
          Alam tamam halqai dame kiyal hai hai

So please enjoy this halki phulki mosiqee (oh haram) shairee during the lunch b
reak with Qadiyanese. Salam. Jafry
Organization: Central Michigan University
Date: Monday, 6 Apr 1992 04:38:24 EDT
From: Mahfooz Ahmed Jafry <32JMVQG@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: 'Ham agai to garmia bazar dekhna'

Salam Alaikum :  'Ham Aagai to garmie bazar dekhna'

       Eid Mubarak to muslims only.  I do not know why Ummnoor is extending Eid
 greetings ?  Whether he is a muslim ?  In Eid's hama hami, he started counting
 himself among muslims ? Ch khoob ?  Baske mushkil hai her ek kam ka asan huna,
yani Qadiyani ka musulman hoona, further more, ummnoor sent me Eid Mubarak thro
ugh e-mail, I need help from Brothers like Murad Mirza, Jamal Mubrak and Irfan
Hyder that what I do in response ?  Eid is restricted to muslims only but ummno
or and Qadiyanese 'phir purshishe jarahat dil ku chala hai ishq' .... please he
lp me, help me, my sheikh said, no and no, do not say Eid Mubrak to Qadiyani,,w
hat I do now :  Can anobody complete this :

             'Guunchai na shagufata ko door say mat dekha ke yun
                       .................................             Ghalib

Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: akgoel@plg.waterloo.edu (anil k goel)
Subject: Re: 'burqa and muslim women'
Organization: University of Waterloo
	<1992Apr6.141815.9509@sarah.albany.edu>
	<92098.05041332JMVQG@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 15:41:45 GMT

In article <92098.05041332JMVQG@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU> Mahfooz Ahmed Jafry <32JMVQG@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU> writes:

   In one of hadith Prophet Mohammed (S) said 'cover the area of upto your
   knees by your shit'.

Really?? :-)
From: zaheer@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Imrana Zaheer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Title/Subject
Date: 14 Apr 92 00:28:25 GMT
Reply-To: zaheer@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Imrana Zaheer)
Distribution: usa
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX
Originator: zaheer@daisy.cc.utexas.edu

In article <kujikqINNmhu@skat.usc.edu> ashai@skat.usc.edu (Ehtisham Ashai) writes:
>
>
>	Whats going on folks. First of all I am sick of the religious
>exchange of fire balls


 Very well written article. I think its time we all must realize what
 brother Ethisham is talking about. At least he is spending time on
 the terminal.[:-)]

 However The purpose of the followup to this article is not praise 
 Brother Ethisham but rather convey my own messages for those who
 are wasting their time on the net.

 1. The first message for those clueless:-) people who find my postings
    difficult to understand, hard to digest and in bad taste.
    Do not think that you are having any problem. This sort of
    problem arises when one tries to evaluate the taste of a sweet
    thing using that part of the tongue which is insensitive to the
    sensation of sweetness. The collarry, therefore is use the appropriate
    part of the tongue(brain):-)

2. the second message is to those who are trying to convince the women to
   use BURQA. My question to those is:

  Have you worn a Burqa lately?



 If not


 Burqa ko samajahna hay to nasih khud Burqa pahan
 Khulei feza may kabih habas ka ahsaas nahin hota.


 

Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: raza@surya.ccs.uwo.ca (Mr. Raza Syed)
Subject: Re: Re Karachi is mini pak
Organization: University of Western Ontario, London
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 17:54:36 GMT

In article <1992Apr15.215545.18790@acsu.buffalo.edu> memon@acsu.buffalo.edu (Naveed Siraj Memon) writes:
>if I could just mention one think that bothers me being the Karachiite is that
>we have not attributed the problems of Karachi to the influx of refugees  
>after the 79 Iranian revolution, and the Afghan war. In the riots of 77 between
>the PNA-PPP etc, there were no heavy weapons used whereas throughout the
>80s the influx of Afghans contributed to the demise of peace in the
>city of lights. I mean we are talking rocket launchers from Defence.  Also 
>no Karachiite would dispute that Karachi was'nt the same city after the Bushra
>Zaidi case in North Karachi.
>
>Naveed 

I found myself in hundered percent agreement with you.  Nothing has cause
more harm to Pakistan/Karachi than Afghan war.  
Just before Bushra Zaidi's case we had elections(?) of 1985 and people started
saying that now there is no reason for any violence but on 15th of Aprill 1985
when i reach home late in the after noon i did'nt know any thing till i was
asked about my safety on my way back.....
 What if the police handeled that
incidence intellingently or Students of surrounding colleges showed some
sensibility..........
I also think that the so called raid on Sohraab Goth was coupled with the 
Bushra Zaidi's case which lead to the darkest period in the History of 
Karachi and consequently Sindh and Pakistan..... :-(

S.R.Raza.
From: azhar@duke.cs.duke.edu (D. Salman [Quintessential] Azhar)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Spearation of chuch and state (was Re: Women and Burqa..)
Date: 15 Apr 92 02:30:38 GMT
Organization: Duke University Computer Science Dept.; Durham, N.C.

In article <1992Apr9.014504.10785@sarah.albany.edu> ys3359@thor.albany.edu (Yazmasterj) writes:
>	.... I believe in an integrated community of different
>	religions and races living together without any state sponsored
>	religion.
>Yasmin  

	   Would Ms. Sohrawardy please explain the motivation for this
"belief". It seems that her approach is based on a very objective view
of Islamic regulations. To the best of my understanding, Islam does
not accommodate the "separation of church and state." On the other
hand, if this is just a personal belief than I see no contradiction in
it. 

Salman [The chapel's steeple or the masjid's dome;
        This land was never mine, I must go home  ] Azhar





-- 
 I must, with emotional fire, burn or illume myself
 I must, with the heat of passion, melt or sublime myself
 I must, in flood of tears, drown or cleanse myself
 I must! I must! I must! For my people and myself -- D. Salman [Q] Azhar
From: umnoor@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Nasir Ahmed Noor)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Death of Jesus (peace be on him)
Date: 14 Apr 92 00:43:31 GMT
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada


Asslam-o-Alaikum,
[A]. Non Ahmadi Muslims believe that Jesus ascended to God and is still alive 
there. Christians believe Jesus to be God and also say he is still alive. The
Quran however says that persons worshipped as Gods besides Allah are "dead 
not living, and they know not when they shall be raised (16:21)."  
Hence non-Ahmadis end up supporting the Christian view of the Divine Jesus 
and they do not even know it.
 
[B]. The Quran states:  "O Jesus I will cause thee to die and exalt thee to 
myself, and will clear thee of the charges of those who disbelieve.."(3:55)
 
[C]. On the Day of Judgement God will say to Jesus:  "Didst thou say to men,
take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah?  He will answer, Holy art 
thou, I could never say that to which I had no right.  If I had said it, 
Thou wouldst have surely known it...And I was a witness over them as long as 
I remained among them, but since Thou didst cause me to die, Thou hast been 
the Watcher over them (5:116-117).  
The verse proves: 
     1). Corruption of Christian doctrine took place after the death of 
         Jesus.  
     2). If Jesus were still alive (as most non Ahmadis believe), 
         Christianity would still exist in its pure form.  
     3). The verse also proves that the same Jesus will not appear a second
         time in this world, as he would then become aware of the mentioned 
         corruption and could not, therefore, plead ignorance in front of 
         God's judgement seat.
 
[D]. One one occasion, the enemies of the Holy Prophet challenged him that
they will not believe in him unless he "ascend up into heaven" and "send 
down to us a Book (17:93)."  The Prophet replied:  "Holy is my Lord! I am 
but a mortal sent as a messenger (17:93)."  The Prophets of Allah, like all 
other human beings, live and die on earth.  If you believe Jesus is still
alive beyond the stratosphere, he must be more than a mortal. Incidentally,
Ahmadi Muslims believe the Miraj was a spiritual phenomenon, not a 
physical one.
 
[E]. The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: 
     1)  "If Moses and Jesus were alive, they would have been obliged to
         follow me (Kathir and al-Yawaqit wal Jawahir vol. 2, page 245).
     2)  "Verily, Jesus son of Mary lived for 120 years 
                (Kanz-ul-Ummal, Part 6 page 120)."  
     3)  In Bukhari, it is reported that in the Miraj, the Prophet saw
         Yahya and Jesus in the second heaven.  If Yahya is dead, then Jesus
         is dead, for the dead do not keep company with the living.

Regards,
Nasir Ahmed Noor
umnoor@ccu.umanitoba.ca
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: jahil@MARIA.WUSTL.EDU ("|*************-----S A J I D....T H E....J A H I L ************")
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Test
Date: 12 Apr 92 21:17:02 GMT

This is a test. This is just a test. Ignore!

Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: umnoor@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Nasir Ahmed Noor)
Subject: Re: Ahmadis vs Non-Ahmadis
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 04:48:20 GMT


Dear Ms. Sabaa Butt,
What ever you have written, I agree with you 100%.

It is like a breeze of fresh air to read highly sensible and logical
writing by some one. A couple of days ago, a Hindu (?) friend posted a
very realistic letter. That too left good impressions.

Regards
Nasir Ahmed Noor
umnoor@ccu.umanitoba.ca

Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: faryal@torment.ugcs.caltech.edu (Faryal [Pink Floyd] Ghalib)
Subject: Re: PINKY FLOYD - Once again! Your serve!
Organization: Caltech Undergraduate Computer Science
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1992 18:50:00 GMT

In article <1992Apr11.072229.9260@wuecl.wustl.edu> mss1@cec1.wustl.edu (Muhammad Sajid Saeed) writes:
>
>
>>	Well look who is talkin? You are the one that had a problem
>>	with the original posting.
>
> I still do! 

	Well tough luck, suck **** thru a starw
>
>>>Maybe someday you'll have a school of thought of your own. Scary, though!
>>	I already do would you like to join?
>
>Love to! Should I call 1-800-NATIONAL-LAMPOON for a brochure?   

	No the number is 1-800-328-7448.

>Or would you be kind enough to send me one?  If you'd like to join my

	just call the above number and they can help you(now that is a scary
	thought)

>occult school, send mail to jahil@maria.wustl.edu. But we have wild initiation
>rites, I should warn you!
>
	No thanx, GDI

>>God is real, unless declared integer
>Go tell this to atheists or agnostics! And don't tell me I didn't warn you... 

	Are you one?

>What would it take to get this silly .sig off here? A California quake,perhaps!
>
	I dont know make me an offer.

>You have finally convinced me to go dig my Floyd discs outta my attic and
>set 'em ablaze! Thank you!
>
	You are very welcome.

>Beware!      Forth coming lyrics in this tete-a-tete include
>	Leppard's Love Bites!!
>
	Could not be worst than what happened before.

>	Sajid [the last thing I'll have is Floyd as my middle name] Saeed
>
>
	You dont deserve one.


Faryal
--
God is real, unless declared integer
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: faryal@torment.ugcs.caltech.edu (Faryal [Pink Floyd] Ghalib)
Subject: Re: Have you driven a Floyd,lately?
Organization: Caltech Undergraduate Computer Science
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 22:38:12 GMT

In article <1992Apr10.063905.24691@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> msaeed@isis.cs.du.edu (Sajid Saeed (Floyd? Nah!!!)) writes:
>Interesting discussion we havin' at Pink Floyd's expense! Anyone else care to
>join, or is it just me and...
>
>				sajid [Sniper at the gates of Pasadena!] Saeed
>
>
>

	I guess you are the only foolish one.

Faryal
--
God is real, unless declared integer
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan