HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kurtovic@gold.cchem.berkeley.edu (Zoran Kurtovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: WWII, again
Date: 19 Dec 1992 20:57:32 GMT
Organization: Dept of Chemistry, University of California at Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: gold.cchem.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Dec19.101035.18694@husc3.harvard.edu> stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
>In article <BzHAHG.B1I@ecf.toronto.edu> blazic@ecf.toronto.edu (BLAZIC Joseph R) writes:
>>In article <1992Dec18.172655.18681@husc3.harvard.edu> stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
>>>In article <1992Dec18.171035.11601@eng.umd.edu> josip@eng.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric) writes:
>>>>Yes, Ustashas
>>>>killed tens of thousands of Serbs in Jasenovac, and Croats reject this
>>>>as criminal.  
>>>Really?  For all "at most fourty thousand including Jews and Gypsies"
>>>as Tudjman claims?
>>
>>Probably not.  Seems Tudjman tried to do the exact opposite to what you
>>are doing.  Where is the middle ground is the difficult question.
>
>
>You should not participate in the things you are ignorant about.
>And you are, with all due respect, Joe. Mr. Loncaric is not 
>ignorant, on the contrary, he is just evil.
>Read Mr. Loncaric's favourite " Enciklopedija Jugoslavije."
>They say about Jasenovac that most often mentioned numbers are
>from 500-700.000 ( the first one is accepted in Encyclopedia of
>Holocaust and is used in McNeil@Lehrer news as "official").  
>As extreme views are mentioned 40.000 ( Tudjman ) and 1,000.000
>( Vlada Terzic ).  I am well below extreme.  I have never claimed
>1,000.000.  I think that figure between 300-400.000 is easily 
>defended by many different methods.  



There seems to be some confusion here because in fact there are two
numbers being discussed here.  One number is the number of people
who died at the Jasenovac concentration camp.  The other number is
the total number of people killed in WWII in Croatia.  The figure
of 40,000 is quoted as the number killed in the Jasenovac concentration
camp, while the numbers 300-400,000 are for the total numbers killed in
Croatia.  Is this the source of the order of magnitude discrepancy?

I have heard the number 1,000,000 as the total number of people killed
in all of Yugoslavia during WWII.  I wish that when people throw these
numbers around they would indicate clearly what they represent, instead
of comparing apples to oranges.

In any case, it is clear that Tudjman has been stupid regarding how he
talks about the events of WWII, and that every effort has been made to
exploit what he has said to promote fear among Serbs living in Croatia.
But what is the real point to this discussion?  

Fear of a massacre does not justify a massacre.  Neither does one massacre
justify another.


Zoran


>
>>
>>/Joe Blazic
>


Xref: sparky soc.culture.croatia:115 soc.culture.yugoslavia:10116 soc.culture.greek:11581
From: wiener@duke.cs.duke.edu (Edward Wiener)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek
Subject: Merry Christmas, Argxid/Mutlu/Argic
Date: 17 Dec 92 20:42:33 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.croatia
Organization: Duke University Computer Science Dept.; Durham, N.C.


Argic buddy,

   So how've you been lately?  Still impersonating my
   dear friend Hasan B-) Mutlu, I see.  Well, I'd suggest
   that you give your chickensuit a good wash before
   the holiday season begins in earnest.  BTW, how's
   your boss at AT&T?  Are you two getting along as
   well as always?  Well, drop me a line or two in
   your usual vitriolic manner, say using the following
   examples:

   1) Were you high on 'mutlu' when you wrote this?
   2) Your criminal handlers at ARP/RARP/TCPIP will not get
      away with the massacre of 24,000,000 Turks and Tatars.
   3) Nice Tri*, 'wieneramus.'
   4) This racist clown will not get away with his crimes.

blah blah blah

Cheers, arsehole,

Eduard Wiener
Xref: sparky soc.culture.croatia:150 soc.culture.yugoslavia:10159 soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:894
From: stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Hermann Neubacher about Croatian regime during the WWII
Date: 19 Dec 92 21:28:31 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1992Dec19.162834.18703
Organization: Harvard University Science Center


More for Mr.Blazic. This one is in German, so he could not accuse me
of the cheating in translation.  The book is especially interesting, 
because it describes all participants in Serbia, i.e. gen. Nedic,
gen. Mihajlovic, in a quite nice light.  

Hermann Neubacher

Sonderauftrag Suedost

1940-1945,  

Bericht eines fliegendes Diplomaten, 

2. durchgesehene Auflage, Mai 1957


page 31.

Zu diesen explosiven Nationalbestrebungen kommen religioese Gegen-
saetze zwischen Katholiken, Pravoslaven and Muselmanen.  Als ich ein-
mal einen in Montenegro beruemht gewordenen Cetnikfuehrer zuredete,
di Muselmanen in Ruhe zu lassen - er hat mir versprochen und
sein Versprechen gehalten - erhielt ich eine Antwort, die aus den 
Tuerkenzeit-Anekdoten des Marco Miljanow stammen konnte: " Wer 
diesen Glauben hat, ist keine Serbe mehr!" Das Pravoslavenrezept des
Ustaschafuehrers und Poglavnik ( Staatsfuehrers ) Kroatiens, Ante Pavelic,
erinnert an Relilgionskriege blutigsten Andenkens: " Ein Drittel muss
katolisch werden, ein Drittel muss das Land verlassen, ein Drittel muss
sterben!" Der letzte Programmpunkt wurde durchgefuehrt.  WENN FUEH-
RENDE USTASCHA-MAENNER BEHAUPTETEN, DASS EINE MILLION PRAVOSLAVISCHE 
SERBEN (EINSCHLIESSLICH DER SAEUGLINGE, KINDER, FRAUEN UND GREISE ) GE-
SCHLACHTET WURDEN, SO IST DAS NACH MEINER MEINUNG EINE RUHMREDIGE 
UEBERTREIBUNG.  AUF GRUND DER MIR ZUGEKOMMENEN BERICHTE SHAETZE ICH 
DIE ZAHL DER WEHRLOS ABGESCHLACHTETEN AUF DREIVIERTEL MILLIONEN.

( My comment;  Later I will post von Horstenau and his officers
reports, reports that agree with this.  They used same Abwehr estimates.)

Als ich wieder einmal wahrhaft entsetzliche Vorgaenge in meiner 
kroatischen Nachbarschaft im Hauptquartier zur Sprache brachte, sagte 
mir Adolf Hitler:

	"Ich have dem Poglavnik auch gesagt, dass man eine solche Minder-
heit nicht einfach ausrotten cann: sie ist zu gross!"

(My comment:  few pages before this, Neubacher 
gives description of the situation on Balkan.  When he speaks of 
Croatian revenge he speaks about Croatian lack of "state-forming
skills" in comparison with Serbs and Serbian domination in 
ex-Yugoslavia)

page 18.

Der nach diesem Zerfall ( of Yugoslavia )losbrechende kroatische Rache- und 
Vernichtungsfeldzug gegen das pravoslaviche ( griechisch-orthodoxe) Ser-
bentum gehoert zu den grausamsten Massenmordaktionen der Welt-
geschichte: .....

******************************************************************

Milan N. Stojanovic
Xref: sparky soc.culture.croatia:114 soc.culture.yugoslavia:10114 soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:869
From: stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: Dr. Mishitch, the Bishop of Mostar
Date: 17 Dec 92 21:04:18 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1992Dec17.160420.18632
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

In article <BzDppI.4p4@ecf.toronto.edu> blazic@ecf.toronto.edu (BLAZIC Joseph R) writes:
>In article <1992Dec16.191342.18582@husc3.harvard.edu> stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:

>Keep spreading the hate...

???????

That is defined as putting things in the historical context.

>Four months ago after the Gratz meeting between Boban
>and Karadzic (I believe it was him) you boldly posted saying you were

You are correct.

>looking *forward* to a new friendly relationship between Croats and Serbs.
>
>But what happened *since* then?  

You have missed that Mr. Hrvoje Hrgovcic, a Croat, posted
immediately " Death to the deal between Serbs and Croats" article.
Death it was.  Rather selective memory you have.
The problem is that Croats will not stop until they clean up 
all their "historical territories" from Serbs.  After that is 
Muslims turn to be converted.
Friendly relationship will occur when Croatian president offers to go 
to Jasenovac and apologise there for few hundred thousand Serbs that 
died there. 


>
>>Also note that Croats claim certain parts where these events happened.
>>Serbs used to outnumber Croats seven to one in Mostar in 1870! 
>>In 1991 there are no Serbs left in Mostar.
>
>1870 now!  Wow, Milan, you could find a reason for anything!
>

Joe, it is highly relevant that Serbian ethnical territories keep on 
vanishing and you seem not to care.  That is exactly why I will keep
on posting on the historical context.
BTW, Muslims were majority then in Mostar and were in 1991, so it is 
highly unclear to me how Croats dare claim it's their city.
Serbs claimed only part of the city called Brankovac, where they were
always majority, until 1992.


>/Joe Blazic

Milan
From: wickerhauser-victor@math.yale.edu (Victor Wickerhauser)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia
Subject: Re: What's the point of S.C.C??
Date: 18 Dec 1992 11:46:57 -0500
Organization: Yale University Mathematics Dept., New Haven, CT 06520-2155
NNTP-Posting-Host: math-gw.cs.yale.edu

In article <BzFyA0.G90@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca> abrodnik@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca writes:
>Pankrti and Laibach are Slovene groups.

I knew about Laibach being Slovenian, but sonce I wasn't sure about
the others I didn'e mention it.  Some of the bands are from Belgrade,
I think.

On the side, let me mention that our department bought an overhead
projector just a few weeks ago, from Apollo, and it is labelled in
huge blue letters:  "Made in Slovenia".  Right on.

Cheers,
Victor

-- 
Prof. M. Victor Wickerhauser                      <victor@kirk.wustl.edu>
Department of Mathematics, Washington University, St. Louis, MO 63130 USA
Telephone:  USA(314)935-6771, USA(314)727-0749;     FAX: USA(314)727-4963
Sto se ljuckim trudom uzdignulo, Ljuckim znojem jopet se ponavlja. --Medo Pucic
From: pavlovic-milan@yale.edu (Milan Pavlovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia,soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Serdar Argic and Armenian suffering in the 19th century.
Date: 13 Dec 1992 12:29:34 -0500
Organization: Yale University Science & Engineering UNIX(tm), New Haven, CT 06520-2158
NNTP-Posting-Host: minerva.cis.yale.edu

In article <1gf0rkINNe15@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> br314@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Davor Cubranic) writes:
<suff deleted>
>Idemo dalje...  Serdar Agic nastavlja svoju staru praksu da
>propagira svoje poruke preko stopedeset grupa i tako pod nasom
>zavrse neke o Armencima i slicno.  Na stranu to sto mene boli kita
>za stradanje Armenaca u drugoj polovici devetnaestog stoljeca,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>stvar je u tome da cak i da me interesira, ne bih gledao u
>soc.culture.croatia da citam o tome.  Dajte ljudi procitaje
>usenet guidelines i pridrzavajte ih se ko deset zapovijedi.
<more deleted>

  What's this, what's this? You don't even read Argic's posts with care.
If you haven't noticed, his effort is to portray the Armenians in a bad light,
not to write about "suffering of the Armenians in the second half of the 19th
century", as you say.  Argic/Mutlu is a loser and he misuses these groups.  

  But let's brush that aside and take up another question here.  Tell me,
do you care as "much" about the Ustashi genocide of 750,000 Serbs, 60,000 Jews,
and 28,000 Jews during WWII also?  Or does your **** hurt about that, too?

Regards,
Milan
===============================================================================
		M A C E D O N I A  =  H E L L A S
===============================================================================
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia
Subject: Re: What's the point of S.C.C??
From: stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic)
Date: 16 Dec 92 19:53:12 EST
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

>In article <1992Dec16.215719.5626@bas-a.bcc.ac.uk> nino@mph.sm.ucl.ac.uk (Nino Margetic) writes:
>>
>>I have received the following message. I am not sure whether it was
>>ment to be published on this forum or not, but since it expresses my
>                                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>feelings also, I couldn't resist the temptation to make it available to
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>the wider audience of this forum.
>>
>>--------------------------- forwarded message ----------------------------
>>From: Dubravka
>>Subject: ??? SUBSCRIBERS
>>
>>Dear Nino,
>>
>[stuff deleted]
>
>>        I was under the opinion that WE (Croatians) from all regions of
>>this planet were to be able to communicate and voice OUR opinions on
>>different subjects.  (I do not want to be branded as an isolationist but
>>they do have s.c.Yu.)   And be able to interact with each other on all
>>positions, political, scientific, folklore, etc, even maybe recipes and the
>>like.   (For example, I would love to find out how Croatian dance groups in
>

	Remember soc.culture.yugoslavia?  Were we discussing there
"folklore...?"  No.  Were you complaining?  No.

>Europe are doing financially [are they funded by church groups]  where do
>>they get their music and costumes, and All I find is Milan Stojanovic
>>castrating our people (it's enough that this is being condoned in our


I am sorry, Nina and Dubravka if you had any problems after your
Croatian boyfriends read my messages.  There is a way out.  Did 
you see "U Raljama Zivota-Stefica Cvek" movie?  Then you now the 
answer.


>>        I'm sorry but I've seen Croatians denied access to Croatian
>>networks and I, for one, would like to see at least these two banned from
>>s.c.CRO.  [IF AT ALL POSSIBLE]

Regards,

Milan N. Stojanovic


Xref: sparky soc.culture.croatia:84 soc.culture.yugoslavia:10061 soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:832 soc.culture.europe:10475
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Tudjman of Croatia is ...
From: stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic)
Date: 15 Dec 92 12:02:14 EST
Organization: Harvard University Science Center



I have an extraordinary pleasure in posting this:



===============================================================================
APn  12/11 1238  Israel-Croatia
   JERUSALEM (AP) -- Israel will not establish diplomatic ties with the
                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
breakaway Yugoslav republic of Croatia because it considers its president,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Franjo Tudjman, an anti-Semite, a newspaper reported Friday.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   The decision was made this week by senior Foreign Ministry officials in a
closed meeting, the Maariv daily said.
   Foreign Ministry spokesman Eviatar Manor said he knew of no such decision and
would not confirm or deny the report.
   In 1989, Tudjman published a book which, Israeli officials say, contains
hostile references to Israel and Jews.
   The Jewish state recognized Croatia on April, 10 months after it seceded from
Yugoslavia. But Jerusalem indicated at the time that Tudjman's views, combined
with Croatia's support for Nazi Germany during World War II, would keep it from
establishing diplomatic ties.
   During World War II, Croatia was governed by the fascist Ustashi party that
joined in sending Jews to German Nazi death camps. Israel believes Croatia has
never owned up to its past.


##########################################################################

Regards, 

Xref: sparky soc.culture.croatia:126 soc.culture.turkish:13338
From: damir@infopls.chi.il.us (Damir Matanic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia,soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: Serdar Argic and Armenian suffering in the 19th century.
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 00:12:21 CST
Organization: INFOPLUS support, Wheeling, IL

pavlovic-milan@yale.edu (Milan Pavlovic) writes:

> In article <1gf0rkINNe15@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> br314@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Da
> <suff deleted>
> >Idemo dalje...  Serdar Agic nastavlja svoju staru praksu da
> >propagira svoje poruke preko stopedeset grupa i tako pod nasom
> >zavrse neke o Armencima i slicno.  Na stranu to sto mene boli kita
> >za stradanje Armenaca u drugoj polovici devetnaestog stoljeca,
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >stvar je u tome da cak i da me interesira, ne bih gledao u
> >soc.culture.croatia da citam o tome.  Dajte ljudi procitaje
> >usenet guidelines i pridrzavajte ih se ko deset zapovijedi.
> <more deleted>
> 
>   What's this, what's this? You don't even read Argic's posts with care.
> If you haven't noticed, his effort is to portray the Armenians in a bad light
> not to write about "suffering of the Armenians in the second half of the 19th
> century", as you say.  Argic/Mutlu is a loser and he misuses these groups.  
> 
>   But let's brush that aside and take up another question here.  Tell me,
> do you care as "much" about the Ustashi genocide of 750,000 Serbs, 60,000 Jew
> and 28,000 Jews during WWII also?  Or does your **** hurt about that, too?
> 
> Regards,
> Milan
> =============================================================================
> 		M A C E D O N I A  =  H E L L A S
> =============================================================================



  "Ustashi genocide"???  What the hell are you talking about?
I think you've read 1 too many history books written by the Yugo\commies.
The Ustase defended Croatia, and they never crossed into the land of 
barbarians, ie. Srbska subadija.  The Cetniks and communists were 
attempting to over throw NDH, and the Cro army responded.  
What would you say if Croatia finnaly DOES go on the offensive in Krajina 
and Eastern Slavonija, and in the proccess we kill 300,000 serb bandits?
Would you consider that as "genocide"?
They drew first blood, and they're the ones who started this war of 
aggession.  Now it's up to us to finnish, one way or another, and if the 
entire Serb population is destroyed in the process, so be it.
  
Damir


---????? "60,000 jews" or "28,000"????
    I can see that you're not very good with numbers, hey?!

damir


           Bog i Hrvati     Hrvatska Hrvatom
                  
                 i uvjek       ZA DOM SPREMNI

Damir

--
damir@infopls.chi.il.us (Damir Matanic)
Infoplus BBS, +1 708 537 0247, v32bis. Home of Infoplus.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
From: arnsenad@me.utoronto.ca (Senad Arnautovic)
Subject: Re: WWII, again (was Re: Dr. Mishitch, the Bishop of Mostar)
Organisation: U of Toronto, Dept. of Mechanical Engineering
Organization: UofT Mechanical Engineering
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 22:54:24 GMT

josip@eng.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric) writes:

... other stuff deleted

>It is tragic that so many innocent Serbs died in WWII.  However,
>most of the persons responsible have been punished in wholescale Partisan
>reprisals after WWII, trials, etc.  Mr. Stojanovic will say that
>some were not punished, but punishing the guilty is not what interests
>him: what bothers him is the very existence of Croatia.  One cannot
>build a sensible policy on that basis.

Independent Bosnia and Hercegovina bothers Mr. Stojanovic even more.
In the case of B-H, he cannot even find historical arguments to justify
the Serbian genocide on B-H people except that "during WWII B-H was
part of Croatia".

>  Serbia and Croatia should
>let each other exist, and agree to respect the rights of their
>minorities.  All other civilized nations have found a way to do likewise.

And B-H should exist with as well. Being multi-ethnical country, it can
show how people can live peacefully together when there are no external
interferences.

>--Josip
Senad H. Arnautovic
From: wickerhauser-victor@math.yale.edu (Victor Wickerhauser)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia
Subject: Povijest Hrvata
Date: 13 Dec 1992 01:49:45 -0500
Organization: Yale University Mathematics Dept., New Haven, CT 06520-2155
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: golem.math.yale.edu

Here are some more excerpts from "The Slavs in European History and
Civilization"  by Francis Dvornik:

p.120: "From the twelfth century onward the fate of the Czechs, the
Slovaks, the Poles, the Croats, and the Slovenes was definitely and
intimately linked with that of western Europe, which provided most of
the patters to inspire and influence their social, religious,
literary, and cultural progress.   It was thus to be expected that the
political organization of their states would be inspired by Western
institutions."

p.132: "Two other Slavic nations, the Slovaks and the Croats, shared
during this period the social and political development of the
non-Slavic nation with which they were united in a common state, the
Hungarians.  The Croats preserved their autonomous status and were
only linked by the identity of the king with Hungary.  The Slovaks
were not so privileged.  There are, indeed, some indications that
after the definite annexation of the Slovak lands in the early
eleventh century, the Hungarian kings used to bestow the territory in
northern Hungary, which covered most of modern Slovakia, as a
_ducatus_ or dukedom on their sons.  Yet, the Slovaks and their lands
never achieved a status in Hungary similar to that enjoyed by
Croatia."
-- 
Prof. M. Victor Wickerhauser                      <victor@kirk.wustl.edu>
Department of Mathematics, Washington University, St. Louis, MO 63130 USA
Telephone:  USA(314)935-6771, USA(314)727-0749;     FAX: USA(314)727-4963
Sto se ljuckim trudom uzdignulo, Ljuckim znojem jopet se ponavlja. --Medo Pucic
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia
From: abrodnik@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca
Subject: Re: What's the point of S.C.C??
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 06:05:59 GMT

In article <1gp50eINNstc@PASCAL.MATH.YALE.EDU> wickerhauser-victor@math.yale.edu (Victor Wickerhauser) writes:
>
>In 1989 I got a tape of contemporary rock music, from the Zagreb
>scene, from Ivan Marusic, including cuts from his band Sin Albert,
>Sarlo Akrobata, Disciplina, Kicme, Miladojka Youneed, U.B.R., Laibach,
>Partibrejkers, Haustor, Boye, and Pankrti.  Some of it is pretty good,
>and I think at least Laibach has come out on CD.

Pankrti and Laibach are Slovene groups. The later is part of so called
NSK (Neue Slowenische Kunst). For more information, please send mail
to Andrej.Benedejcic@Uni-LJ.SI. Beside this, I think that on SCYU was
also published an article about Laibach. The same article appeared
also in "Pisma bralcev".

Regards,

Andrej