From: leel@tigger.cs.Colorado.EDU (Lee Lawrence)
Subject: Re: Kosher gelatin (SUMMARY/MISCONCEPTIONS) 
Followup-To: soc.culture.jewish
Summary: long
Keywords: long
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 17:13:03 GMT

I am personally interested in this issue, because I 
am a Kosher Vegetarian.  And, I have requested info from both
manufacturers and Rabbis.

The bottom line is that "kosher gelatin" isn't usually kosher
and isn't usually vegetarian!   I'm not joking.

Probably the largest gelatin producing company in the U.S. is Kraft foods
which manufactures "Jell-O" and other products.  They sent me literature
about their products and the process of making gelatin.

Jell-O contains a plain letter K on the package and lists "kosher gelatin"
in the ingredients.  According to the manufacturer, "kosher gelatin" is
made from the collagen-bearing tissues of ANY animals which are raised for
slaughter as food.  And, they explained the process. (Note: they emphasized
the word "any" in their letter to me)

They also sent me a Rabbinic Responsa on the topic which argues that
because the processing reduces it to be no longer considered food,
it becomes equivalent to a new substance which is pareve (not meat or dairy.)
This opinion and argument is NOT supported by the major Orthodox kosher
certification organizations today with respect to "kosher gelatin."
(I doubt most vegetarians buy the argument either :-)

Some of the many reliable kosher symbols (called "hecshers") include:
An O with a U inside, K inside an O, K inside 5-point star, CRC in triangle,
K inside torah scroll, and others. To the best of my knowledge, all of 
these listed symbols do not consider "kosher gelatin" (as previously defined)
to be kosher.

As an example, some Yoplait yoghurt contains the ambiguous mark of a plain
letter K, and contains non-"kosher gelatin".   By contrast Dannon yoghurt
contains an O-U mark and has no gelatin concerns for vegetarians or people
who take a normative opinion of what is kosher.

(NOTE: there are differences of opinion among Jews as to which symbols are
       acceptable to them, and a concerned Jew should ask an informed Rabbi 
       or local kashrus organization.  Some opinion differences stem from the
       fact that some kashrus oranizations may inspect manufacturing plants 
       less frequently or less stringently than others.)

-----
Now let me clean up some misconceptions in other posts I have read...

>when a label says "Kosher gelatin" that usually means that 
>the gelatin is either from agar (which is seaweed) or 
>is synthetic.

agar (also agar-agar) is currently more expensive and will often 
be listed as agar rather than described as gelatin.

>Since I had written "I'm nobody's rabbi" I decided to ask
>somebody's rabbi.  He informed me of this, and said that in
>general, vegetarians do not have to worry about eating yogurt
>with kosher gelatin.  

Not all people titled "Rabbi" keep kosher :-( and even among Rabbis, 
no one Rabbi knows everything about all topics.  There _are_ Rabbis
who _specialize_ in matters of keeping kosher.

>In any case, gelatin is made not from hooves, 
     *true* instead, it is made from collagen bearing animal tissues.
>but from an enzyme found in animal intestines.  So it should be 
>reasonably easy to synthesize without killing any animals. 

This person is confusing gelatin with equally complicated rennet issue.
In the U.S. today much of the rennet in cheese is synthetic, but not all.
For cheese to be kosher, most halachic authorities today require it
to have a hecsher even if it contains vegetable-based rennet. Ask an
informed Rabbi.

>Well, horses are definitely not kosher :-)
  *TRUE*
>I believe "kosher gelatin" is from plant sources & therefore okay for
>vegetarians.  
  usually *FALSE* (details earlier in article)
>I hope someone corrects me if I'm wrong, because I'm
>trying to keep a kosher as well as a vegetarian diet!

>BTW, the "real" cultured yogurts that don't use gelatin as a thickener
>are better, anyway, if you can find them and afford them.
  *TRUE*

>So, if you can find a Greek/Turkish/Arab/Iranian/South Asian food shop near
>you, buy from them and avoid the problem.  (I can't see any reason why these
>pure yogurts shouldn't also be kosher, but I'm not Jewish and there may be a
>wrinkle I haven't thought of).

As to what is kosher, the issue is much more than simply what ingredients
go into the food. The topic is too complicated for this thread.
But, the poster is correct in believing that the ingredients in a _pure_
yoghurt are probably kosher, however a person keeping stictly kosher
usually requires most processed foods contain a kosher symbol which
is a sort-of guarantee that it was made according to kosher laws.
And as mentioned before, a simple unadorned K on the package may 
mean that it was reliably supervised, but not necessarily.

By contrast, almost all Hershey food products, like Reeses Peanut Butter
Cups (yummmm!) are reliably supervised by O-U but don't contain a kosher 
mark on the package. (write to Hershey for list, I did.)

>Horses are not kosher, so it definitely isn't made out of horse.  Kosher laws
>do not allow the mixing of meat and milk anyway, so it won't be made out of
>any kind of mammal or poultry gelatin.  

This is essentially correct, but unfortunately that minority opinion is
that because gelatin is processed to the point where it is no longer
considered a food, and is simply chemicals, some people have said
that its origin is no longer relevant (i.e. could be from pig) and that
it becomes 'neutral' (pareve) and could now be mixed with milk.
NOTE: Most Orthodox authorities DO NOT hold this opinion today on gelatin.
      And, a _reliable_ kosher symbol on the package means that it is
      not made from a non-kosher animal.

>However, fish is considered 'neutral',
>so the gelatin could be made from fish bones.

Debbie is correct that fish products are 'neutral' and can be mixed
with dairy products.  However, no gelatin, to my knowledge, is currently
being made from fish bones in the U.S. because cow and pig bones are
a much better source.

Also, eggs are considered neutral kosher, and are not considered meat, 
they can be in kosher "dairy" or "pareve" foods.

>Non-Orthodox Jewish movements may differ on what they will consider
>"kosher", but I believe it is only Orthodox Jews who run the companies
>to supervise the kashrut (kosher-ness) of foods.

The major reliable organizations for supervising kosher products are
Orthodox.  But less-strict Rabbis also do supervision as a form of income.
The type of kosher mark indicates which company supervised the manufacturer.
Sometimes a product may have a regular K instead of a special kosher symbol 
because the more strict Rabbis would not approve the product's kosherness. 

I hope that this info was of use to some folks out there...

Lev Lawrence      leel@cs.colorado.edu
 
|   __      [  Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery.  ]   __   |_ 
|__|_  __   [  None but ourselves can free our minds.      ]     |    |
   |__|_    [            -- Bob Marley "Redemption Song"   ]   __|_  / 
      |__                                                           ..

Bottom line: "kosher gelatin" ain't necessarily vegetarian nor reliably
             kosher. But a reliable kosher mark with "pareve" or "dairy"
             ingredients (but not fish) should be acceptable to ovo-lacto 
             vegetarians.