HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: er@oscar.bellcore.com (Elizabeth Romanov)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Santerria
Date: 10 Nov 92 07:30:49 GMT

Submission to soc.religion.christian
===================================

I can easily imagine that some readers of this group would think of the
Church of Laukoumi (the Santerria congregation in Hialeah) are at best "twits";
insofar as I understand Santerria I believe it would be fair to describe it
as a pagan religion.  Thus no doubt the city of Hialeah sees no harm in 
proscribing its ritual practice in legislation directly aimed at a particular
religious group, and no doubt many Chirstians agree with this intent.  I do not.

The ritual slaughter practiced by this Church is identical to kosher slaughter
(which is significantly more humane than the standard method used in the 
meat packing industry.  The animals are not tortured or abused, and the 
meat of the animal is cooked for a ritual meal.  

To me personally, the whole ritual practice is unappealing to say the least.
However, in my opinion the city ordinance is clearly unconstitutional, since
it was written with the clear intent of restricting a single group's right
to religious practice.  Granted, this is an unusual religion and an uncommon
practice, but that in no way affects the rights of the religious community
under the constitution to practice their religion freely.  It is perhaps 
worth noting that the Roman Catholic Church has filed an amicus brief in 
support of the Church of Laukoumi, as have the Jews.  It seems to me that
if we begin to permit legislation of this nature to restrict Santerria
practices, we open the door to forbid kosher slaughter, the use of wine
at Mass, or any practice by a minority religoius group that does not appeal 
to the sensibilities of the majority. 

Personally, I'm rooting for the Church of Laukoumi, myself.

Regards,
Lise Romanov
er@oscar.bellcore.com
From: REXLEX@linac.fnal.gov
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Lost Salvation
Date: 10 Nov 92 07:20:40 GMT
Organization: FNAL

Have you ever wondered why we are "adopted sons"?  THe Jewish concept of
adoption did not allow a disownership of an adopted son! There was no allowance
for the rejection of birthrite or inheritance of an adopted sons under Jewish
law.  This info was given to me by a rabbi.

How about Rom 11:29 that states that the "gifts and callings of God are
irrecovable."  

Also:
John 6:44 "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and
I will raise him up on the last day.

God isn't a God of chance nor is there any variation.  Its not as if when God
calls us that He doesn't already see the end from the begining.  This topic
could evolve easily into a discussion on atonement or freewill. Of course this
also gets us into the question of when is an individual "in Christ?"  That is
much more distinct that saying when does one become a believer.  Demons believe
in Christ, they just don't believe Christ.  When an individual is placed "in
Christ" then it is impossible for that individual to "lose his/her salvation."

The question is, when is one placed "in Christ."
From: REXLEX@linac.fnal.gov
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Marital Communication
Date: 12 Nov 92 07:52:30 GMT
Organization: FNAL

Breaking Down the Walls: Strengthening Marital Communication


                        THE WALL
Their wedding picture mocked them from the table, these two
whose minds no longer touched each other.
They lived with such a heavy barricade between them
that neither battering ram of words nor artilleries of touch
could break it down.
Somewhere, between the oldest child's first tooth
and the youngest daughter's graduation, 
they lost each other.
Throughout the years, each slowly unraveled that tangled ball
of string called self, and as they tugged at stubborn knots
each hid his searching from the other.
Sometimes she cried at night and begged the whispering darkness 
to tell her who she was.
He lay beside her, snoring like a hibernating bear, 
unaware of her winter.
Once, after they had made love, he wanted to tell her
how afraid he was of dying, but fearing to show his naked soul,
he spoke instead about the beauty of her breasts.
She took a course in modern art, trying to find herself
in colors splashed upon a canvas, 
and complained to other women about men who are insensitive.
He climbed a tomb called "the office," wrapped his mind
in a shroud of paper figures and buried himself in customers.
Slowly, the wall between them rose, cemented by the mortar of indifference.
One day, reaching out to touch each other, they found a barrier
they could not penetrate, and recoiling from the coldness of the stone,
each retreated from the stranger on the other side.
For when love dies, it is not in a moment of angry battle, 
nor when fiery bodies lose their heat.
It lies panting, exhausted, expiring at the bottom of a wall
it could not penetrate.


"If Thou, Lord, shouldst mark iniquities, O Lord, who could stand?
But there is forgiveness with Thee."  Ps. 130:3-4 

"For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you
will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus."  Phil. 1:6

"Forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead."  
"I can do all things through Him who strengthens me."  Phil. 3:13, 4:13





I.	The size of the wall 
 the new Hite report; survey of 150 unfaithful wives, all but 2% said they had
their affair for communication reasons; after 10 yrs, average couple spends 37
min per week communicating with each other

II.	Life without the wall: What is genuine communication?  Eph 4:15; I Peter
3:7

to be continued
From: tony@swrinde.nde.swri.edu (Anthony R. Benitez)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Door-to-Door evangel.
Date: 13 Nov 92 07:17:37 GMT
Organization: Southwest Research Institute, San Antonio, Texas

>Note the context to Mat 23:15.  Jesus is describing the Pharisees as
>blind guides. ... before trying to convert people, we should be sure that we
>understand the Gospel well enough that we're really helping them.

REXLEX responds:

>I think this is dangerous theology.  ... Some of the best witnessing is done 
>by new converts because they're too naive ...
>... Maybe the Lord has been trying to have us do it, but we're too
>high and mighty.

Rex

Oh! Rex!

The dangerous theology here is "Maybe the Lord has been trying..."!
I want you to point out ONE instance in the Bible where the Lord
"TRIED" to do anything.  The Lord I believe in didn't try to do,
He DID!  I believe in an omnipotent, powerful God and Saviour, who
in spite of the wretched, miserable little creatures we truly are,
loved us and through his Grace saved us.  There was no trying in it.
He just did it, and I praise his name for it.
I would like to know how you run Pauls admonition to Timothy to
study to show thyself approved?  

AnthonyBenitez
From: DWagner@uh.edu (David Wagner)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: damnation/purgatory
Date: 5 Nov 92 07:44:00 GMT

Brad,

   Thanks for your e-mail.  You wrote:

Brad> OOPS!!!  I should have said "SOME OF the ancient Hebrews didn't
Brad> believe that THEY went to heaven after death ..."


Thanks!  It's nice to have a little agreement now and then!


Brad> You've cited the Psalmic evidence for those who did; here's the
Brad> other side of the coin:

Brad>     Do you show your wonders to the dead?  Do those who are dead
Brad> rise up and praise you?  Is your love declared in the grave,
Brad> your faithfulness in Destruction?  Are your wonders known in the
Brad> place of darkness, or your righteous deeds in the land of
Brad> oblivion?  -- Ps 88:10-12

Brad>     No one remembers you when he is dead.  Who praises you from
Brad> the grave?  -- Ps 6:5


It strains my view of the scriptures to view these Psalms as teaching
doctrine denying the believer's eternal life with God.  Psalm 6 in
particular appears to be a psalm of repentance, asking forgiveness,
and asking to be spared eternal punishment, using a special pleading,
"No one remembers you when he is dead.  Who praises you from the
grave?"

Thanks again for your message.

David Wagner
From: REXLEX@linac.fnal.gov
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Quantum Leap
Date: 12 Nov 92 07:56:52 GMT
Organization: FNAL

Does anyone out there watch Quantum Leap besides me?  Did you catch the little
twist they put in Tuesday nites story?  I haven't quite idenified it.  It was
YING & YANG plus some bent on the purgatory theme.   I'm not well versed in New
Age, but what little I've read doesn't explain this episode either.  If I was
to draw an analogy it would be that the girl was human but non-elect and her
hologram was demonic. They had somehow acheived release from "hell" and were on
the lose in time on earth.  The girl was a leaper like the hero of the program,
but she came to "redeemer" herself by doing evil acts!  Satan was alluded to,
but not named.  Did I miss something?

Comments or explainations?
Rex
From: rreid@ecst.csuchico.edu (Ralph W. Reid III)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: thought for the day (11-12)
Date: 13 Nov 92 05:35:53 GMT
Organization: California State University, Chico

Thursday, November 12:

     We, though, who are strong ought to bear the weaknesses of those
not strong, and not to be pleasing ourselves.  <Romans 15: 1>

-- 
Ralph.  N6BNO.  NOW LOOKING FOR A JOB!
Phone 1-916-345-9155.
lectromail- rreid@ecst.csuchico.edu.
I do not waste time expressing others' opinions!
From: schnaufe@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (Bernard A Schnaufer)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Liberal/New Age Religion (Was: Santeria and animal-sacrifice)
Date: 11 Nov 92 07:29:10 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

altheimm@nextnet.ccs.csus.edu (Murray Altheim) writes:

>Remember it was only this year that the Vatican recognized the possibility
>that the earth is round. What they've done for science, they've done for
>society. 

I may be biased, but I detect a little bias in the above statement.

>Why are so many people more afraid of thinking freely than they
>are of God? Nowhere in the bible is thinking proscribed. If your beliefs
>are so weak as to not stand up to any scrutiny, then maybe the necessary
>response is fear, dogma and blindness. It's not the way I want to live,
>nor is the way I believe God intended. 

Thinking freely is one thing.  Thinking recklessly is another.  These two are
confused by many so-called "free thinkers," as well as "unfree thinkers."
What many people would rightly be cautious about is an attitude that assumes
I can come up with my own morality, as if there wasn't a standard of morality
that has already been established by God to measure against.  This kind of
thought is reckless.  It does not take pains to consider what the Lord has
revealed through the Bible or the Church.  As in all we do, whether thinking
or actions, we need to do it with a spirit of reverence for the way in which
God has created us and what He has created us for.
	I would also have to slightly disagree with the statement that nowhere
in the Bible is thinking proscribed.  Jesus clearly teaches that lustful
thoughts are sinful.  I think this is in keeping with what I've said in the
above paragraph.
	Also, I think that dogma, or other formulas which articulate a moral
truth, serve a useful purpose.  These are used because they are tried and true
ways of expressing a revealed truth from God.  Dogma is often criticized for
being stale and cold.  I don't think that it is the fault of dogma that the
truth which it expresses is not alive in the hearts of the people that recite
the statement.  We should be challenged to understand the meaning of a dogmatic
statement and then, perhaps, rephrase it in a way that touches our hearts more
clearly.

God Bless,
		B Schnaufer

[The first statement isn't so much biased as a mistake.  He was
thinking of the announcement about Galileo, which of course is not the
roundness of the earth but the fact that it orbits the Sun.  Even this
is not really news to the Catholic Church.  They've accepted it for
some time.  --clh]
From: S.Hinde@frec.bull.fr
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: The Path of Serenity and Insight
Date: 12 Nov 92 23:16:58 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.45829
Distribution: world
Organization: Bull S.A.

[repost, the original aparently went down some kind of NNTP black hole -a]

I wonder if some kind person (particularly US or INDIA based readers) can
give me some information on the availability of the  following publication:

"The Path of Serenity and Insight An explanation of the Buddhist Jhanas"

Henepola Gunaratana

Originaly published by Motilal Banarsidass Publishers, Delhi.

This is an exceptional publication. I would be interested in the names of
any other related publications.

Kind regards,

Steve
From: SECBH%CUNYVM.BITNET@mitvma.mit.edu
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Buddhist Texts
Date: 6 Nov 1992 21:50:23 -0800
Organization: ----
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu

In addition to the history Mr. Lye has given, there is also the Kegon
Shu sect of Japan.  This is a small Buddhist sect which has the Avatamsaka
Sutra as its focus.  As I recall "kegon" means flower wreath.

I have never seen any translations of publications by them, nor any
books about them though.  Does anyone have any more information on them?

Jack Carroll
From: degrace@upei.ca (John DeGrace)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: re-examination of dealing with emotions
Date: 5 Nov 1992 14:06:18 -0800
Organization: ----
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu

In article <1d6povINNrro@sandman.caltech.edu> fstawit@icomp01.lerc.nasa.gov (Tawit Chitsomboon) writes:



>I think what you just said explained itself, i.e., try to be mindful
>of your emotion (and all actions) (as much as possible). Of course
>it's difficult (otherwise this world will be full of Buddhas already :-)

>IMO, there is no more direct way to understanding, as far as self-effort
>is concerned. However, `direct' isn't necessarily easy. To be mindful of
>all your thought processes (not just emotion) is both 'samatha' (calmness)
>and 'vipassana' (insight) meditations at the same time. Samatha in that
>you have to concentrate your mind to the thought process. Vipassana
>in that you have to contemplate on the arising-persisting-disbanding
>of it, which is the nature of all dhamma (so they say). In the beginning,
>it'll be difficult to practice but if we stick to it, it'll bear
>great results, no doubt in my mind.

You've got it!  I am more and more coming to the view that, if there is one 
phrase that should be engraved in the heart of every practitioner it is this 
one:  "Only what mindfulness can wisdom understand."  (BTW, can anyone 
recall the original author of that?)


John DeGrace					degrace@upei.ca
From: tagi@cup.portal.com
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Harappa
Date: 7 Nov 1992 12:35:04 -0800
Organization: ----
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu

9211.07 e.v.


Dinkar Sitaram quotes, then writes, I respond:

In article <45063@ogicse.ogi.edu>, bhattach@quip.eecs.umich.edu (sayan
bhattacharyya) writes:
|>
|> Harappa  is one of several archaeological sites of the Indus Valley
|> civilisation .
|>  [deleted lines]
|> The two most interesting "deities" (of course it is just a
|> conjecture that they *are* deities )  are a horned god surrounded
|> by animals , which some scholars think is a precursor of the
|> later Aryan god, Shiva.


Dinkar:

The interesting fact from the viewpoint of s.r.e is that the figure is
sitting cross-legged in meditation*, suggesting that meditative
practices may date back to the Harappans.  Another interesting fact is
that in Hindu mythology, Shiva is the only ascetic and is associated
with meditation.

..
* I don't have a clear picture of the seal, but it looks close to
Padmasana to me.


Response:

Padmasana?  Any relation to Padmasambhava?  Doubtful.


Additional notes...

The figure you mention is most often referred to a sort of 'proto-Shiva', 
called Rudra, if my sources are correct.

Also, on the 'Gudestrup bowl/cauldron' there is a fascinating figure
usually associated with the Celtic Cernunnos.  He is the 'Lord of the
Animals' and is portrayed in a semi-meditative pose, surrounded by 
beings of the wilderness.  On the base is a bull, prominently featured,
which reminds me quite intensely of the connections between Shiva and
His 'vehicle', Nandi; a bull.

There are certainly differences between between these figures, but
they seem rather minor, and the fact that Indo-Europeans have a common
history seems to lead to a number of fascinating similarities between
the Celtic myths, rites and cosmology and those of the ancient Indus
Valley civilization.  Another good example is (the) Morrigan/Morrigu
and Durga-Kali, whose triplicity of form (both Celtic and Hindu gods
will, at times, display this quality) brings to mind the Trinity of
Christian theology.


Thyagi Morgoth NagaSiva
-----------------------------------------------
"White people are doing things in reverse.
They think that by going into the sweatlodge
or buying drums and rattles, they will become spiritual.
Not necessarily.  Instead, if you live in a good way,
you are spiritual.  Then, the ceremonies come
as a means of expression."

Rolling Thunder
From: dld@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au (David L Dowe)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Melbourne, Krishnamurty vidoes, Sat7thNov, 2-5
Date: 6 Nov 1992 21:49:45 -0800
Organization: ----
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu
Summary: Krishnamurty videos, Melbourne, Sat7thNov'92, 2-5pm
Keywords: Krishnamurty, Melbourne, videos

You might wish to disregard this if you are outside of Melbourne or (more
particularly) outside of Victoria, Australia.
   My apologies if I am cross-posting to groups where people might not be
interested in Krishnamurty.

   Short though the notice might be, I have just found out that there is to
be a showing of KRISHNAMURTI videos, 256 Flinders St., Melbourne (City),
Sat 7th Nov, from 2-5.

Thanks and regards  (and, if you elect to "flame", please be constructive and
polite).            - David D.
From: mw@ki.fht-mannheim.de (Marc Wachowitz)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: re-examination of dealing with emotions
Date: 5 Nov 1992 14:08:36 -0800
Organization: Fachhochschule fuer Technik Mannheim
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu

Michael Moriarty <MORIARTY@VM1.NoDak.EDU> (and some others) wrote about the
difficulties of dealing with emotions.

: My problem with Toshi's theory of dealing with emotions is that I
: find myself living inside the flow of time.

Instead of "dealing" with emotions as if they were a kind of "foreign
intruders", another possibility is to be aware of them without judgement,
without trying to get rid of them, neither by opposing to them nor by
trying to be balanced.
Simply look, without creating a "distance" between "you here" (thought as an
actor or observer) and "the feelings there".
This need not be a matter of training, and can happen even within very strong
emotions - be it anger or lust.
It can be seen instantly that both withdrawal and grasping result from the
artificial concept of a stable, separate self "inside" trying to get something
"out of" life - and the "result" of seeing it works instantly, too.
This is not really a long analysis, only writing about it makes it so.
Maybe it's more like "getting" the point of a joke.
Spontanously you break out in (freeing?) laughter.

Don't worry too much about all this psychology stuff of childhood conditioning
etc. - not that it were completely wrong - but however and complex conditioning
is, it can only work now, so there's no need to "look back".

: Hmm...the Sattipathana Sutra does say something about
: being mindful about emotions, where they come from, how they arise,
: watching them arise, watching them pass, and so on.

The eye of the storm is the point in the middle,
but looking in the middle does not show a point.
Is the storm itself moving or still?

: But I have no clear idea of a way of actually doing that.

Uh, take care not to plan too much - that just adds to the problem.
Forget development.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Marc Wachowitz, mw@ki.fht-mannheim.de   /  news zombie - reply by e-mail, too
  *  wonder everyday    *    nothing in particular    *    all is special  *
From: bhattach@quip.eecs.umich.edu (sayan bhattacharyya)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Harappa
Date: 8 Nov 92 18:07:08 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.45661
Distribution: world
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor, MI

In article <1dh99oINN7o1@sandman.caltech.edu> tagi@cup.portal.com writes:

 >Dinkar:
 >
 >The interesting fact from the viewpoint of s.r.e is that the figure is
 >sitting cross-legged in meditation*, suggesting that meditative
 >practices may date back to the Harappans.  Another interesting fact is
 >that in Hindu mythology, Shiva is the only ascetic and is associated
 >with meditation.
 >
 >..
 >* I don't have a clear picture of the seal, but it looks close to
 >Padmasana to me.
 >
 >
 >Response:
 >
 >Padmasana?  Any relation to Padmasambhava?  Doubtful.
 >

Thyagi,     

You misunderstood Dinkar.

Padmasana is a Sanskrit compound word (Padma + Asana) which means
"Lotus Posture". (Padma = "Lotus" in Sanskrit). It is a traditional
meditative posture (not to speak of being a very good therapeutic
posture for the back muscles).

It has no connection with Padmasambhaba. Padmasambhaba is another
Sanskrit compound word which means "One who sprang from the Lotus"
(Padma + Sambhaba).

 >
 >Also, on the 'Gudestrup bowl/cauldron' there is a fascinating figure
 >usually associated with the Celtic Cernunnos.  He is the 'Lord of the
 >Animals' and is portrayed in a semi-meditative pose, surrounded by 
 >beings of the wilderness.  On the base is a bull, prominently featured,
 >which reminds me quite intensely of the connections between Shiva and
 >His 'vehicle', Nandi; a bull.
 >
 >There are certainly differences between between these figures, but
 >they seem rather minor, and the fact that Indo-Europeans have a common
 >history seems to lead to a number of fascinating similarities between
 >the Celtic myths, rites and cosmology and those of the ancient Indus
 >Valley civilization.  Another good example is (the) Morrigan/Morrigu
 >and Durga-Kali, whose triplicity of form (both Celtic and Hindu gods
 >will, at times, display this quality) brings to mind the Trinity of
 >Christian theology.
 >
 >
 >Thyagi Morgoth NagaSiva
 >-----------------------------------------------
 >
 
There was an interesting article on the Celtic/Indus Valley similarities
in this year's March or February issue of the "Scientific American".

The Gudestrup cauldron was also mentioned in the article.

-Sayan Bhattacharyya.
From: MORIARTY@vm1.nodak.edu
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: re-examination of dealing with emotions
Date: 7 Nov 1992 12:33:57 -0800
Organization: ----
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu

Hello again.  I want to thank the people who are contributing to this
thread because I find it very interesting and directly relevant to my
experience of developing awareness (sati).  I wonder whether anyone
has anything to say about the relationship of the flow of time to
this question?  I do not know of any Buddhist texts that discuss
the flow of time in a direct manner.  Yet, as a Western Humanist,
the nature of time is a primary concern to me.  The theories of
Aristotle and Newton and even of Einstein and Stephen Hawkings do
not seem to apply to Buddhist notions of experience-in-time.  I
hope this is not too vague, but I'd like to read comments from the
others without dictating an outcome.  Perhaps I am the only one who
is concerned about the question of time and its relationship to
the development of sati.  One of the four jnanas if the awareness
of infinite space.  Does that include time?
      In gassho, Mike     email: Moriarty@vm1.nodak.edu