From: dieter@informatik.rwth-aachen.de (Dieter Kreuer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Let's hit Nazis?
Followup-To: soc.culture.german,soc.culture.jewish
Date: 25 Jan 1993 09:32:05 GMT
Organization: i4
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: frueh-koelsch.informatik.rwth-aachen.de

In article <1993Jan22.161325.19683@husc3.harvard.edu>,
abkevich@husc3.harvard.edu wrote:

> I would not say that the average German was more brutal than the average
> R/A/E/F before 1933. Then when from the fault of the German population in a
> desperate economic situation dangerous criminals ruling the country corrupted 
> the most part of population and murdered, forced to emigrate or put in KZ the 
> best. That let them rose the average level of cruelty. It would be wrong to put 
> everything on this "dangerous criminals". They would not be so successful
> without help of the most part of Germans.

One might say, a country gets the goverment it deserves, but I think this
is not true. Compare the Serbs again: Milosevicz was elected by more than
50 % of the population although he is a racist bigot. This is not because
the whole people of Serbia is made up of 50 % criminals, but because Milo-
sevicz has the means to control the public opinion (probably he has got
them
due to the infrastructure left by the communists). The biggest cruelty
committed by the average Serb is therefore to have elected Milosevicz, and
hence to have supported the war in Bosnia-Hercegovina. Has the level
of cruelty *in* Serbia been raised this way? Of course not. *Some* Serbian 
troopers in Bosnia-Hercegovina commit the cruel crimes. I imagine the same 
situation in Germany during WW2 (I haven't been there, so I don't know for
sure how it was, what people thought). So, my point is, that some dangerous

criminals can lead a complete people to start an aggressive war
deliberately
(they will always find some excuse why the other side has to be punished),
but I don't think that the level of cruelty of one person toward another
can be raised significantly by a government, if not by brainwashing cer-
tain individuals. On the other hand, there are always potential tortures
among every sufficiently large group of individuals, who start to act
when the situation supports them (like the KZ commanders, or the Serbs
raping muslem women in B.-H.).

> Exactly. What could you expect after corruption of population by communist 
> for 48 years? And now..... SHOULD WE DISCUSS US MARINE'S RAPING? *Sigh*

You see, it's the circumstances, not the people, which makes the difference
between war and peace, aggressor and defender. And this is true for the
US marines raping. The average marine would never do this. The average
Iraqi did not do it, nor the average Serbian trooper. As well as the
average German soldier. But some individuals of either group did it.

> > Influenced, yes. But it's really not true that either
> > 
> > 1) All/most people who had lived during wartime had Nazi ideas,
> > 2) the younger generations were educated this way, too, and
> > 3) even if they had been, they would have adopted this indoctrination.
> > 
> 
> Sure, it should be better with every new generation. But could you tell me that
> you have already overcome this problem? 

Yes, I can. I cannot declare the whole country free of racist bigots, but
I doubt that there are any more here than in any other country, because
the youth has been taught (at least in the western part of Germany), what 
the consequences of racism had been. The society has changed a lot, too.
During the war, pupils were frequently corporally punished at school.
Today, a law is in the make which forbids parents to beat their children
even at home, or they will be accused for child abuse. And it's not
just the goverment who has led to this decision, but the German society
of today.

> Agreed. I never mentioned these firebombings in my previous messages. On the
> other hand I don't like political responce on these events in Germany.

I don't like it either. The next election here is two years ahead. I'll 
do my best ;-)

-----------------------                  ---------------------------------
     Dieter Kreuer      ##     ======== / dieter@informatik.rwth-aachen.de
Lehrstuhl Informatik IV __   /// /#    /  dieter%informatik.rwth-
     RWTH Aachen        ##  /// # #   /             aachen.de@uunet.uu.net
     Ahornstr. 55       ## /// ##### /...!informatik.rwth-aachen.de!dieter
W-5100 Aachen, Germany  ====      # / PHONE:  +49 241 80 21413
Xref: sparky soc.culture.german:10363 soc.culture.jewish:26264