From: stojanov@husc8.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Fascism Reawakens in Croatia, Charges Jewish Leader
Date: 19 Aug 92 17:13:15 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1992Aug19.131321.14887
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

In article <1992Aug19.145407.1432@src.umd.edu> josip@src.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric) writes:
>In article <1992Aug18.201614.27851@cs.yale.edu> pavlovic-milan@CS.YALE.EDU (Milan Pavlovic) writes:
>
>>is a reawakening of fascism and genocidal policy in Croatia.  I will quote 
>>an article from "The Jewish Advocate", of January 24-30, 1992.
>>Without permission, for academic purposes only.
>>===============================================================================
>>	Fascism Reawakens in Croatia, Charges Jewish Leader
>>
>>By Klara Mandic
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Mrs. Madic is a Serbian propagandist and not Jewish at all.  
                                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>Josip
>

I am surprised how far are you ready to go in this. 
Mrs. Mandic is Jewish. I would like to believe that you are
not such a pathological liar, that you are just naive and 
believe everything you read in the third rate Croatian Journals.
Although in the appended article, which I decided at first not 
to post, I will show that you have once again used the same
method.  Lie, avoid to apologize, hoping that your
lie would stay as a truth in at least some readers' heads. 


>

In article <1992Aug17.195333.3934@src.umd.edu> Josip Loncaric wrote:
>In article <1992Aug17.111555.29514@cco.caltech.edu> simic@pollux.ccsf.caltech.ed
>
>Milosevic has used other lies as well: Croatian Constitution guarantees
>equality to all of her citizens; but the claim was made that it does not.
>Croats were all along extending a hand to their Serbian minority,
>guaranteeing full equality and cultural autonomy, even after some had
>(with Milosevic's support) staged a rebellion in August of 1990.
>All of this could have been solved by negotiations, but Milosevic
>wanted war -- and "all Serbs in one state", no matter how many non-Serbs
>have to be killed or "cleansed".

"The lie repeated many times would become truth" - guess whom?
You forget to say that before the armed rebellion, Croats ( even before
Tudjman comming to power ) refused to negotiate even cultural 
autonomy with Serbs.  Statements like:" Serbs have no culture, so 
why cultural autonomy" were thrown at their faces ( compare: "thousand
years old culture") as a reason for not even discussing autonomy. 
>

>The Constitutional guarantees you ask for HAVE been given by the Croats,
>in their 1990 Constitution as well as in the additional laws, and the
>result was deemed to surpass the European standards.  But this had never
>been THE problem; only the Serbian war against (initially) defenseless
>civilian population of Croatia has made it a problem.

Again, all attempts by Serbs, those around Raskovic ( Tudjman eliminated
him nicely, as Ivan Zvonimir Cicak, a Croatian politician, noted, by 
publishing details from their confidential conversation ), from Knin,
and Hadzic , were refused by Tudjman government, afraid of 
looking whimpy on Serbian issue, thus breaking the election campaign 
promise.


In article <1992Aug17.181411.2958@src.umd.edu> Josip Loncaric wrote:
>In article <1992Aug17.111331.29428@cco.caltech.edu> simic@pollux.ccsf.caltech.edu (Petar Simic) writes:
>> 	Josip Loncaric writes:
>>
>>  One correction: Belgrade gas chambers were operated by local Serbs...
>>
>>  I have one thing to say: Serbian Jews experienced the same fate as 
>>  Croatian Jews.  In Serbia, there was the Belgrade gas chamber,
>>  in Croatia, Jasenovac.  Both were operated by the local authorities,..
>>
>>	...Josip
>><<<
>>
>>	This, of course is, LIE. I challenge you to provide a quote from
>> the credible historic document which would point the blame for operating
>> a gas van, which was brought in spring of '42 from Berlin to Serbia and used
>  ^^^^^^^^^
>I've remembered the word "gas chamber" but until I've checked Encyclopedia
>Judiaca" did not realize that it was mobile.  The complicity of Nedic's
>Serbian quisling government, however, is well documented, even in Serbian
>sources.  For example, I'd suggest you to consult the book

This is a beautiful example.  From definite statement that Serbs were
operating gas chambers, to complicity in doing this. Do people learn
such things on a special course?  Also, note how the burden of lie
has been "professionally" shifted from the big one, ie. Serbs operating
the gas chambers ( or van, as if that matters), to the much smaller,
simple mistake, ie, chambers vs. vans.  Also one part is deleted here, 
the one where it is described where the van was used - in Sajmiste,
remember this, reader!

>
>"Banjica", Historical Archives of Belgrade, Belgrade, 1967.
>
>This book clearly shows that (1) Germans were not working alone, (2) that
>Banjica was primarily staffed by Serbs, (3) that the concentration camp was
>funded by Belgrade municipal budget, (4) that the camp chief was Svetozar
>Vujkovic, a Serb.  Banjica camp processed over 23,000 people many of whom
>were Jews and children.  Many people were shot not by Germans but by
>Serbian guards.  The prisoner lists were kept in Serbian, in cyrillic script.
>
>Besides Banjica, Belgrade also had nearby camps Topovske Supe and Jajinci.
>Sajmiste was a camp in Zemun, across the river Sava (present day Serbia,
>but then a part of the NDH).  A group of Jewish refugees had been 
>captured and deported from Sajmiste, then gassed en route from Sajmiste 
>to Jajinci.  A Serbian company had a contract to collect their clothing.
>Source (besides Encyclopedia Judiaca):
>

Now, this one is simple to confuse readers unaware of the geography and 
history of the region.  

- "Nedic government complicity is well documented" - he quotes
Banjica, while Sajmiste was a place where van was used.
- "Nedic government complicity is well documented" - he mentiones
some company contracting to collect clothing.
-Bringing confusion by mentioning names like: Banjica, Sajmiste, Jajinci.
	-Jajinci - execution and mass grave place, where hostages were
executed and their bodies buried.  Run by Germans, the most often
used method firing squads ( squads with machine guns). The most of 
the victims were hostages taken all around Serbia, some resistance fighters.
Victims were brought from Banjica, either after request from Germans,
in the case of hostages, or in the case of resistance fighters
by request of Nedic government special police.  Number of people killed
on Jajinci is usually included in Number given for Banjica. because
most of them passed through Banjica. 
	-Banjica - not a death camp, but concentration camp.  Hostages
were kept there, under the request from Germans.  Special police had  
secondary authority there, and kept resistance fighters. 
Some people resisting, were really killed there by Serbian police. 
The other use of Banjica was that it was a camp where from people 
were forwarded to other camps, Dahau, Mathauzen, Sajmiste ( a death camp),
Smederevo ( Youth Education Centar), or released, if they would pledge 
support for Nedic government, and had someone to guarantee for them.
	-Sajmiste - a death camp, as Mr. Loncaric correctly admits on 
the territory of the Croatian state.  Nedic government had indeed very 
little to do with it.



>
>>	This is not to say that quisling puppet government under Milan Nedic
>> did nothing wrong. His gendarmerie had to be involved to some degree in
>> assisting the Germans in rounding up the Jews. This is clear. Yet, if we
>> are discussing in good-faith here, we should not mix the leading order
>> history with the small, Nth order effects.
>               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>	This is the last I have to say on this question.
>
>Small?  N-th order?  Difference is clearly there, but to say that what
>happened in Serbia is "small" or in any sense negligible is completely wrong.

What a distortion.  Mr. Simic asks you to distinguish what happened
in Serbia due to German acts, and what happened in Serbia due to 
Serbian acts.  And to compare that with what was going on in Croatia
due to the acts of Croats.  Is this concept so difficult to grasp?

>>
>
>I'm tired of this discussion too.  This has nothing to do with culture,
>but since Belgrade propaganda continues to bring up WWII Dtrocities in order
>to justify the carnage they are perpetrating today, I just had to remind
>you of some parts of history you do not like to remember.  A bit less "epic"
>view of Serbian history might have carried a warning of what Serbian
>extremists could do: perhaps Serbs would have exercised more care
>in dealing with their own fascists, instead of giving them 24% of the
>seats in parliament (I'm talking about Vojislav Seselj's Serbian Radical
>Party).
>

Without any attempt to defend Seselj, he can be favourable compared to 
Tudjman's party.  Especially, taking into account Tudjmans anti-semitic 
and anti-serbian ramblings. Tudjman was the first one who suggested
that Serbs should be paid money to move out of Croatia?!  His party 
leaders were famous for battle cries against Serbs.  Pre-election rhetoric?
May be, but important is that majority of Croats voted for such a 
rhetorics.

>Josip
>


In article <1992Aug17.171053.2079@src.umd.edu> Josip Loncaric wrote:


I erased again your quoting of the "Enciklopedija Jugoslavije." I find
that again you are quoting 1944 numbers, while being incapable of supporting
your claims for the earlier years.

>
>In article <1992Aug17.110938.29340@cco.caltech.edu> simic@pollux.ccsf.caltech.edu (Petar Simic) writes:
>> 
>> 	"Spreading of the partisan movement in Croatia came depending upon
>> the realisation of the broad masses of people that the Independent State
>> of Croatia does not mean the solution of the Croatian national question,
                                                ~~~~~~~~
>> because this state would share the fate of fascism and Hitler's Europian
>> order...(pp.443, "Wastelands of Historical Reality", Nakladni Zavod Matice
>> Hrvatske, 1989)."
>
>This says nothing about the relative representation of Croats vs. Serbs
>in the Partisans, but says that Partisan movement grew particularly rapidly
>as broad masses of people realized that NDH is not here to stay.  Armed
>resistance, however, was limited by the availability of arms, and those
>were in short supply until late 1943, when Italian arms were captured
>and the Allies started sending in more support.

If I had any doubts about whether you are discussing in a good faith, or not,
you have just dispersed them.  This is becoming a matter of being honest or
not.  Serbs, becoming interested in Croatian national question solution?
Note that I have provided even before this article a number of other
quotes from Tudjman's book. 

>
>I'm tired of this discussion too.  But you continue distorting the record,
>trying to smear Croats as fascists, although you know full well that
>Croats had firmly rejected fascism in the strongest possible way:
>by risking everything and fighting against overwhelming odds for their
>freedom and dignity.  I find your manipulations of history morally 
>reprehensible, stimulated by Milosevic's warmongering propaganda.
>
>Josip


Nice last passage.  But empty, except falsehoods. 

Milan N. Stojanovic
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