HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Clean And Unclean Under The New Cove
Date: 29 Jul 92 14:04:12 GMT
Organization: Unisys - Applied Technology

Harvey Smith writes:
>
>To: Bill Carlson
>Suj: Tom Albrecht
>
>Shalom Bill, Since tom is totally anti semitic, and intellectually 
>dishonest, it is better not to even dialogue with him, but just correct his 
>statements to others.

Oh, come on now, Harvey.  You can do better than that.  Hiding behind the
smokescreen of the "A" word won't help your cause.  Highly charged,
emotional language is a sure sign that you theories are on intellectually
shaky ground.

But if your definition of anti-Semitism is so loose as to include folks who
disagree with your theories on Judaism and Israel, then I guess you can count
me in.

-- 
Tom Albrecht
From: tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: er,excuse me
Date: 28 Jul 92 15:55:05 GMT
Organization: Unisys - Applied Technology

Harvey Smith writes:
>
> TA=>But there is an official denomination of Messianic Jews called 
> TA=>the Union of
> TA=>Messianic Jewish Congregations, the UMJC.  "Jews for Jesus" is an
> TA=>evangelist organization headquartered in San Francisco, not a 
> TA=>denomination.
>
>Wrong again Tom, boy your ignorance surely shows.  The UMJC is not a 
>denomination.  It is an umbrella organization, much like the NAE, etc.  It 
>is a PR organization, that bands to gether MJ's of many different 
>denominational flavors.  

The UMJC is just a PR organization??  Which Christian denominations are
officially represented in the UMJC "umbrella organization"?  

In the NAE you have Baptists, Assembly of God, my own denomination - the
PCA, and many others.

The UMJC seems more like the Southern Baptists than the NAE.  Answer me a
question, can a Southern Baptist or Assembly of God congregation join the
UMJC without altering their policies or practices to conform to UMJC
doctrine?

-- 
Tom Albrecht
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom)
Subject: Re: knowing HaShem
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 15:41:17 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Research

In article <l6p1pdINN5er@pollux.usc.edu>, kjh@pollux.usc.edu (Kenneth J. Hendrickson) writes:
|> In article <9207212100.AA00728@aplpy.jhuapl.edu> levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene) writes:
|> >Such an effort would be considerably more
|> >productive in fostering positive relations with Jews than conversion
|> >attempts.
|> 
|> Rob,
|> 	We (believers in Yeshua) are not interested in having "positive
|> relations" with you, as an end in itself.  What we are interested in is
|> having you come to know HaShem, and be saved from your sins.  Everything
|> else is secondary, and pales in importance to your eternal destiny.  But,
|> if having "positive relations" will be a means to further this important
|> end, then we're all for it.
|> 
I think that the above very frankly states what Messianic "Judaism" and all
similar evangelical movements are about.  You have only one goal ---
to convert us to Christianity.  Anything else you do is only
a means to that end.

That's why it's important for me to know who you all are
so that my children are safe from you until they reach
an age when they understand who you are and what you
are trying to do.  It's why my 7-year-old child is not allowed
to take a walk alone with her aunt and uncle.
-- 
Rob Strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641
IBM Research, 30 Saw Mill River Road, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
From: kjh@pollux.usc.edu (Kenneth J. Hendrickson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Missionizing to 2-year-olds (was Re: knowing HaShem)
Date: 28 Jul 1992 21:04:27 -0700
Organization: EE-Systems, USC, Los Angeles
NNTP-Posting-Host: pollux.usc.edu

In article <1992Jul28.214258.5637@watson.ibm.com> strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom) writes:
>I believe that the truth is God doesn't cast people into hell
>for having the "wrong" religious belief.

And you are right.  God casts people into hell for violating His laws,
and for being God-haters.  The only possible hope that you have is
Yeshua, who died for the sins of many, and took the wrath that God would
have poured out on those many sinners upon Himself.  This is also the
only possible hope your children have.  The question isn't so much
whether you have the right "belief" or not--it's more a question of
whether Yeshua died as a sacrifice in *your* place or not.  Be assured
that if you come to Him for salvation that He *did* die in your place.

-- 
"Arguing about predestination is virtually irresistible."    --RC Sproul
Ken Hendrickson N8DGN/6       kjh@usc.edu       ...!uunet!usc!pollux!kjh
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: stucki@retina.cis.ohio-state.edu (David J Stucki)
Subject: Re: clean And Unclean Under The New Cove
Originator: stucki@retina.cis.ohio-state.edu
Organization: Ohio State University Computer and Information Science
	<1992Jul21.205456.8854@portland.mdc.unisys.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 17:26:49 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.205456.8854@portland.mdc.unisys.com> tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht) writes:

   As to context, that's quite plain.  Jesus said NOTHING going into a man can
   defile him.  Does NOTHING mean nothing?  It would seem to in this instance.
   The text and context is plain.  Food cannot defile.

   The reason, according to I Timothy, the Word of God has come and "purified"
   all that God created.  We are no longer to call unclean what Almighty God,
   Jesus Christ, has declared clean.

The point of the passage is not that it is alright to eat anything,
but that it is not the food that causes the defilement. It is the act
of disobediance and the rebellious heart that causes the defilement.
The eating is only the physical manifestation of the sinful attitude.
This passage doen't replace, invalidate, or obviate the Law, but
elucidates its nature and purpose.

Jesus (Yeshua) didn't come to supplant the Law but to explain and
fulfill it.

dave...

David J Stucki               /\     ____          /\ Department of Computer and
537 Harley Dr. #6           /__\   \ /\ /  /\    /__\       Information Science
Columbus, OH  43202        /\  /\   \--/  /__\  /_\/_\    2036 Neil Avenue Mall
stucki@cis.ohio-state.edu /__\/__\   \/        /\    /\      Columbus, OH 43210
                                              /__\  /__\    __
There is no place in science for ideas,      /_\/_\/_\/_\   \/  /\     /\
there is no place in epistemology for knowledge,                --    /__\
and there is no place in semantics for meanings.  -- W.V. Quine      /_\/_\
From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: (Old) Question for Rob Levene
Date: 29 Jul 92 22:32:10 GMT
Organization: Johns Hopkins University

Old answer for Bruce Tiffany.  


---- Reposting -----

From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Judaism Has Not Changed
Date: 13 Jul 92 03:29:33 GMT
Organization: Johns Hopkins University

Answering Harvey Smith and Bruce Tiffany:

I wrote:

>> Except for one or two chassidic groups, the poskim are by and large
>> unconvinced that this particular sea-creature is the right one.

Harvey Smith writes:
> I think the reason for the above, is that they didn't discover it...Hence
> they go out of their way to be unbiblical.  (grin)

Care to back up your gratuitous slap at all the gedolim who
happened not to hold by that particular rebbe's view on techeiles?


Bruce Tiffany writes:

> non-Orthodox) Jews into "converting" to Christianity.  Now he's saying
> he favors Messianics wearing tzitzit with blue threads (you'll see plenty
> such tzitzit at my congregation!).  Could it be that he's tacitly admitting
> that Messianic Jews are indeed Jews -- indeed JEWISH -- and that there's is
> a true Jewish expression??

<pregnant pause>  Could it be that wearing the blue thread makes
                  you guys easier to spot in a crowd??


> As I said, I haven't read everything up to this point yet, and
> probably won't get to it for a few days, but Rob, did you ever answer
> my question as to whether you were willing to concede that it is an
> entirely JEWISH view to believe the scripture passages discussed
> earlier are referring to the Messiah (even if you don't happen to
> believe Yeshua is the Messiah)?

Perhaps there's a daas yachid which held that way, but it isn't
the accepted pshat among rov meforshim.

Also, I haven't seen any comments from Messianics on Maccoby's
book on Paul as mythmaker.  Nu?

Rob

------------ End of Repost -----------------

-- 
--
Robert A. Levene     Internet: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu
  "/  //  / /"         Bitnet:   RXL1@APLVM
From: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Clean And Unclean Under The New Cove
Date: 26 Jul 92 02:28:30 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 8:7002/1.0


 HS> To: Bill Carlson
 BC=>I think so.  It involves thinking that they are "less", but is 
 BC=>Body.  Plus, I think the idea of the "replacement theology" being
 BC=>wrong is too much for many to deal with.  After all, when you've
 BC=>based your walk on a dogma, and that dogma is even hinted at as 
 BC=>being
 BC=>in error; a person tends to feel their walls wavering.  Quite
 BC=>unsettling, I'd imagine as if being in an earthquake. :-)

And that is the crux of the problem.  So instead of contending for the faith 
once for all delivered to the saints, they attempt to undermine that which 
is against their church doctrine.  Oy vey, what a problem they have.  Glad i 
don't have such a problem.  (grin)

 BC=>but then later says: NOT to answer a fool according to his folly.
 BC=>[paraphrased]  To every thing there is a season.  Maybe we just
 BC=>switched seasons, nu :-)

Yup i think so... 


--  
Harvey Smith - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG
From: tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: er,excuse me
Date: 22 Jul 92 20:50:19 GMT
Organization: Unisys - Applied Technology

In article <1992Jul17.174700.612@kong.gsfc.nasa.gov> freeman@kong.gsfc.nasa.gov (Andrew Freeman - RMS) writes:
>
>	Hi.  This is the first time I've posted, so I guess you could call it 
>a test.  But really I have a question.  I was looking through the news groups
>when I noticed this one.  I was just curious, are Messianic Jews the same thing
>as "Jews for Jesus"?

Depends on whether you spell it Big-M Messianic or little-m messianic Jews.
Biblically speaking every Jew who converts to faith in Messiah is a
messianic Jew.

But there is an official denomination of Messianic Jews called the Union of
Messianic Jewish Congregations, the UMJC.  "Jews for Jesus" is an
evangelist organization headquartered in San Francisco, not a denomination.

-- 
Tom Albrecht
From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Messianic Judaism 4 Of 4
Date: 22 Jul 92 02:29:01 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO


 RS> From: strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom)
 RS> Message-ID: <1992Jul20.204105.20615@watson.ibm.com>
           -=> Quoting Rob Strom to Bill Carlson <=-
 RS> an earlier post.  He identified as a "Hebrew Christian",
 RS> another term Messianics used in the 1970's.  He then
 RS> converted his sister.  So both individuals were Messianics
 RS> in the same sense that 3% of the Jewish population is
 RS> Messianic today.  Only their *spouses* were Gentiles.

No; that would be more in the sense that the 12% who are in Gentile
Churches would be.  "Hebrew Christian", as a term used by the Hebrew
Christian Alliance, was applied to those who were for the most part
in a non-Observant Gentile "type" Church settting.  They still exist;
and the MJA -Messianic Jewish Alliance is an off-shoot of that
group, but typically more observant than the Hebrew Christian Alliance
was.  For example, while the Hebrew Christian Alliance might
celebrate easter, the UMJC -{which started in 1967 if I recall
correctly}, wouldn't celebrate that, but would celebrate Pesach and
Omer Raesheet -the First Feast of First Fruits.  So..., it wouldn't be
that much of a change for them to go into a Gentile Church setting,
from where they were at already.

 RS> No.  They went into a Gentile Church after having been Messianics.
 RS> They were raised Jewish, converted to Christianity as Messianic
 RS> Jews, and then some time later joined a Gentile Church.  I don't
 RS> think this is so rare as you imply.
 
From the HCA to a Gentile Church?  Perhaps not; but I was talking about
from Observant Messianic Judaism, not from a HCA experience.

 RS> Now I'm totally lost.  If the Jewish spouse was male, the
 RS> children *wouldn't* be Jewish unless the wife converted.
 RS> And how does your "principle" allow you to not require
 RS> a conversion?  Do you claim to be performing halachic
 RS> marriages in this case?
 
That is correct; the children wouldn't under Orthodox standard; however
under Reform standard, if the father is Jewish the children are still
considered Jewish; even if there wasn't a conversion done of the
spouse.  So, no; I wouldn't say that such a marriage would be done
under correct Orthodox halachah if preformed.  I've been trying to
remember, and all I recall of marriages that were "mixed", were once
two Jewish men married Gentile women; and one Jewish woman married a
Jewish man.  The other times, it was Messianic Gentiles getting married
to the same; or Messianic Jews marrying Messianic Jews.  Since I'm not
the Rebbe :-), I don't have to worry about all the ins and outs on
that particular subject.  And if it came up, I'd just take it on an
individual basis if I was, - the Rebbe that is <grin>.

... Am Israel Chai!  
--  
Bill Carlson - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: hillel@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (hillel.e.markowitz)
Subject: Re: Messianic Judaism 4 Of 4
Organization: AT&T Federal Systems
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 18:26:23 GMT

In article <139283.2A6C6A4B@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson) writes:
>
>
>But all these are just side trips.  The point is: either Y'shua is the
>Messiah; or He isn't.  We believe He is.  So, let me ask you: if He is;
>what would truly be your response, - that is if you did believe that He
>was Messiah ben-Yosef?  What would HaShem have to do in your life to
             ^^^^^^^^^

Was this a typo or do you really believe that y"shu was not in any
way descended from David.  If you are claiming that this person was
mashiach ben-Yosef, then he is a precursor and the legends involved
state that he would fail.  In that case, what is your belief
regarding mashiach ben-Dovid and why make a deity out of a lowly
precursor.  Also wasn't mashiach ben Yosef supposed to come just
before the mashiach?

>prove that to you.  Just curious.                   ... Am Israel Chai!      
>--  
>Bill Carlson - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
>UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
>INTERNET: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG

____________________________________________________________________
| Hillel Markowitz    |  Said the fox to the fish, join me ashore  |
| H_Markowitz@att.com |  So too is it with the Jews and the TORAH  |
|_____________________|____________________________________________|
From: Donna.D'Iorio@f7022.n124.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Donna D'Iorio)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: It's the same Judaisa
Date: 24 Jul 92 14:24:04 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:124/7022 - MAXUS World H, Dallas TX

Quoting Tom Albrecht:
**shed ever.  The legacy is clear, when the church abandoned the law-word
**God as the only standard for faith and practice, all sorts of abominatio
**were encouraged.  That's why the Church needs to repent of its antinomia
**ways and reclaim the truth of the law-word of God.

    But it is deeper than that, Tom.  Protestants have had their share
in persecution and murder of the Jews....and it is more than antinomian
ways.  The early church ALSO hardened its heart against the Jewish
people. It lost its way because it failed to recognize that the
foundation of the faith had been invested in the Jewish people. So it
began to "interpret" the rules according to gentile understanding rather
than receiving that wealth of revelation their Messianic Jews brothers
held. AND it became increasingly anti-semitic in its official posturing.
Is it any wonder that the Dark Ages was the result of all this?!

YOU are still running with this false doctrine that belittles the Jewish
people in the plan of G-d.  When you should be repenting on behalf of
gentile Christianity, seeking the forgiveness of the Jew for two
millennia of atrocities committed against them, seeking reconciliation,
what are you doing instead?  Speaking uppity self-righteous arrogance!
    What defiles a man issues from the heart and comes OUT of his mouth.
What has been coming out of YOUR mouth?
    Don't you comprehend that the anti-Judaic stance of Christianity has
fueled and even justified *every* murderous persecution of the Jewish
people in history?  Like so many others you distance yourself from
complicity, but the complicity remains nonetheless.
    The mission of our faith is reconciliation, Tom, NOT accusation.
Your choice of places to air YOUR dirty laundry is appalling.
___



--  
Donna D'Iorio - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Donna.D'Iorio@f7022.n124.z1.FIDONET.ORG
From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Clean And Unclean Under The New Cove
Date: 24 Jul 92 19:53:02 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO


       -=> Quoting Harvey Smith to Bill Carlson <=-
 HS> 
 HS> To: Bill Carlson
 HS> Suj: Tom Albrecht
 HS> Shalom Bill, Since tom is totally anti semitic, and intellectually
 HS> dishonest, it is better not to even dialogue with him, but just
 HS> correct his statements to others. 
 HS> He is certainly scattering folks away from the Messiah, and not
 HS> gathering into the barns. 
 HS> One of his latest posts is insinuation that because Jews are once
 HS> again embracing their Messiah, that somehow that makes him second
 HS> class. 
 HS> This is a feeling amongst a lot of Christians, that if God returns to
 HS> the apple of his eye then what will happen to us.  Their position
 HS> seems unclear to them, because they have espoused replacement theology
 HS> so long that now they are unsettled. 

I think so.  It involves thinking that they are "less", but is the
hand less/more than the foot?  NO, each is a necessary part of the
Body.  Plus, I think the idea of the "replacement theology" being
wrong is too much for many to deal with.  After all, when you've
based your walk on a dogma, and that dogma is even hinted at as being
in error; a person tends to feel their walls wavering.  Quite
unsettling, I'd imagine as if being in an earthquake. :-)

 HS> It is best not to argue with such as Tom, for his entire theology is
 HS> shaken.  And he is lashing out... Not in Love, but out of despite, and
 HS> anger. 
 HS> Do you know his denominational affiliation? 

No; I don't know his denominational affiliation.  But I agree; once,
twice, but there is an end to debating nonsense :-)  Kind of like
where Shlomo/(Solomon) says: answer a fools according to his folly;
but then later says: NOT to answer a fool according to his folly.
[paraphrased]  To every thing there is a season.  Maybe we just
switched seasons, nu :-)

... 012 Shalom Alechem ---> <--- Alechem Shalom 210    
--  
Bill Carlson - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG
From: Malachi.Robertson@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Malachi Robertson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: re:clean and unclean under the new covenant
Date: 26 Jul 92 22:31:09 GMT
Distribution: alt.messianic
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service

While I was reading Bruce's good article on Mark 7, it hit me that given
the context of what Yeshua was saying and G_d's words to Peter in Acts,
the last part of verse 19 might be paraphrased: 

"So Yeshua declared all foods, both flesh foods and non-flesh foods,
purged of any defilement that was thought to come from lack of hand
washing.  What G_d has declared clean let no man call defiled or common by
mistaken man-made regulations."

Does this make sense?

"Malachi" Ian Robertson Brown
--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
From: Malachi.Robertson@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Malachi Robertson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: questions for MJs
Date: 26 Jul 92 22:59:29 GMT
Distribution: alt.messianic
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service

A little while ago I asked a few questions about Messianic Jewish beliefs,
but I guess people missed to article or were too busy with other stuff. 
Anyway, instead of asking all those questions and overloading anyone, I
will just ask one question.  

In this room and other places I have encountered many varying opinions on
the matter of the relationship between ethnic Isreal and the Church.  I am
not sure what to call my view, and I am not sure I am really decided on
the matter.  I think I may lean to "replacement theology," but I refuse to
label myself that as I am unsure exactly what that theology fully entails.
I don't want to jump into a pool where I can't see the bottom (to speak by
analogy).  So now my question for the MJs...

What are your views on the relation between ethnic Israel and the church?

I would really appreciate any answers.  If you could provide texts from
the Scriptures, then that would be good too.  Thanks for your time from a
truth seeker.

"Malachi" Ian Robertson Brown

Happy are they that dwell in Thy house;
They will ever praise Thee.

 Happy is the people who thus fare;
 Yea, happy is the people whose G-d is the L-rd.


--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
From: hudson@athena.cs.uga.edu (Paul Hudson Jr)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Jesus Declares All Foods Clean
Date: 24 Jul 92 21:13:36 GMT
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens

In article <139313.2A6F7C3E@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson) writes:

> -=> Quoting Spawn Of A Jewish Carpenter (cindy  to All <=-
>Oh; I get it.  Basically; you are saying that the "scholars" you are
>quoting are saying that the Jewish Messiah is saying that when one
>poops in the toilet, it suddenly makes all the foods clean to eat that
>previously G-d had declared unclean; since He's now changing His
>mind.
>     Thanks but no thanks!

So, do you support the interpretation then, that the this line
was a comment of Mark, and therefore Mark is stating that Jesus statement
made all foods clean?
From: kmjoffe@acs.ucalgary.ca (Kenneth M. Joffe)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Knowing HaShem
Date: 29 Jul 92 02:02:14 GMT
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta



>|> So Rob, here's the message one more time:  Both you and your young
>|> children have evil sinful natures.  
>
>So Kenneth, here's the message one more time:  Stay away from my children.
>

Hmmm....how about being more specific with the name.  How about
"So Kennith Henderickson...".  I don't want any body to get my
name mixed up with that dangerous fellow.