HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dave@hpdstma.ptp.hp.com (Dave Waller)
Subject: Re: Buildup Dives
Organization: Hewlett Packard
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 19:14:34 GMT

In article <Btoxsn.Ayr@kings.demon.co.uk>, russell@kings.demon.co.uk (Russell Brown) writes:
|> 
|> Does anyone know of any physiological reasons for doing buildup dives in
|> preparation for a deep one?  I'm not thinking about a novice diver going
|> deep for the first time, more about an experienced diver planning a deep
|> dive and heeding the training advice about programs of buildup dives.

I'm not sure how much of this is physiological, and how much is
psychological -- however, one's tolerance to Nitrogen Narcosis can be
significantly increased by repeated, gradual exposure to greater and
greater degrees of impairment. I would say that this is a MUST if you
are considering depths in excess of 130 feet, and have not had any
significant experience with NN.

Your best route to take for such an endeavor is to get some training from
an experienced deep diving instructor, who can provide you with a well
structured training program, and close supervision during your buildup
to greater and greater depths.

Also, I would strongly urge you to purchase/rent/borrow a completely
redundant breathing system adequate for the depth of the dive, as at
these depths free ascent is not an option. a 13.4 cuft pony bottle is
good to for about 150 feet, 30 cuft will get you down to 200. Beyond that
you should be breathing trimix or heliox anyway, and you'd need doubles
as a minimum.

To do this safely takes some work; but please don't do it any other way.
None of us want to read about you in the next issue of _Alert Diver_.

-- 
Dave Waller
YMCA Instructor
Newsgroups: rec.scuba
From: adb@herboid.uucp (Anthony DeBoer)
Subject: Re: To moderator: why are articles removed so quickly
Organization: Linda's Dragon Memorial Society
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 23:03:53 GMT

FKK@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU writes:
>Last night I posted to scuba.rec.  This morning the net is almost empty.
>What gives?

[ Okay, who wants to put on a phony moderator hat for a moment to reply to
FKK?  No takers?  Alright, I'll do it... ]

First off, this is an unmoderated group, so there is no moderator.  We all
just happily climb dripping out of the water and start posting away.  We
take ourselves seriously enough that the evolutionist symbolism in that
statement is completely lost on us, but not so seriously we don't have fun.

Second, the group is rec.scuba, not scuba.rec.  If your machine is willing
to pretend there is such a group, then yes, it'll be real empty.

That aside, whether or not your site gets rec.scuba, and how many days
the articles are kept online before getting purged, is up to your system
administrator.  Try asking around locally; that's not something any of us
on other systems have any control over.  Another thing is that sometimes
a machine upstream of you can get backlogged and news will dry up for a
few hours or even days, then all of a sudden it will start flooding in
again.
-- 
Anthony DeBoer   NAUI # Z8800, D5482 | Why watch TV, when Netnews provides
adb@herboid.uucp | adb@geac.com      | 100% of your daily requirement for
uunet!geac!herboid!adb               | trivia and meaningless entertainment?
Newsgroups: rec.scuba
From: goldstei@shrike.und.ac.za (Hilton Goldstein)
Subject: Open Water II
Summary: scuba - Open Water II a must?
Keywords: scuba
Organization: Univ. Natal, Durban, S. Africa
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 12:55:29 GMT

Hi,

I have my Open Water I and am thinking about doing the
Open Water II course.  Is it worth the money/time etc.?

Also, for those of you who have done it, what is involved
and is it fun etc...

Please E-Mail replies directly to me as I do not read rec.scuba
everyday.  My address is: hgoldstn@images.cs.und.ac.za or
goldstei@shrike.und.ac.za

Thanking you in advance...

Hilly
From: wcc@cup.portal.com (wcc - usa)
Newsgroups: rec.scuba
Subject: Re: Mtn View area dive shop?
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 09:53:46 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: ba

Peninsula Dive Center is located at 1015 W. El Camino Rl, Mtn View.

Nice staff and very friendly/helpful.

Give them a try (At least they are in the right area for you ;-)
If you want to call them, (415) 965 2241

BTW: I am not associated with this shop in any way !
Newsgroups: rec.scuba
From: spindler@rcf.rsmas.miami.edu
Subject: Re: Florida Keys - REALITY
Reply-To: spindler@rcf.rsmas.miami.edu
Organization: RSMAS
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 92 14:07:00 GMT

In article <1992Aug31.143511.9007@hellgate.utah.edu>, 
rarobert@ursa9.cs.utah.edu (Robin Roberts) writes:

>The word that we had gotten about
>driving through the Miami area was to get gas and food, and to make pit
>stops BEFORE leaving the Keys, or well North of Dade County.

This is especially important since the curfew is still in place.  The curfew
hours are 7 PM - 7 AM for points south Kendall Drive in Miami (basically all of
the southern points of the city and everything on down to the southern edge of
Dade County), 9 PM - 7 AM for the south-central areas of the city, and 11 PM -
7 AM for the central and northern parts of Dade County.  If you end up in these
areas during those times stick to the major highways and don't try to go off to
find a gas station or restaurant (they will ALL be closed).

BTW, the traffic situation is slowly improving.  Keep in mind, though, that the
left-most lane of the Florida Turnpike is reserved for rescue and emergency
vehicles ONLY.  This is in both directions. 

I'm not sure if the power situation in the Keys has improved, or if it will
improve in the near future.  The Homestead and Florida City areas lost their
entire power distribution grids, and I don't know how long it will take FPL to
reconnect the Keys.  As they are connected by high-tension powerlines, I expect
that they may be reconnected fairly soon, but it depends on how the rest of the
grid reconstruction is fairing.  Most of the hardest-hit areas are expected to
be out of power for a long time (read: months).

----
Todd Spindler                                  
TSpindler@rsmas.miami.edu                 RSMAS/MPO  University of Miami
Newsgroups: rec.scuba
From: root@kings.demon.co.uk (Super User)
Subject: Re: Buildup Dives
Organization: Lady Lodge Systems
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 14:45:03 GMT

In article <BtpK4B.8BF@scd.hp.com> dave@hpdstma.ptp.hp.com (Dave Waller) writes:
>In article <Btoxsn.Ayr@kings.demon.co.uk>, russell@kings.demon.co.uk (Russell Brown) writes:
>|> 
>|> Does anyone know of any physiological reasons for doing buildup dives in
>|> preparation for a deep one?  I'm not thinking about a novice diver going
>|> deep for the first time, more about an experienced diver planning a deep
>|> dive and heeding the training advice about programs of buildup dives.
>
>I'm not sure how much of this is physiological, and how much is
>psychological -- however, one's tolerance to Nitrogen Narcosis can be
>significantly increased by repeated, gradual exposure to greater and
>greater degrees of impairment.

Ummm thanks for the followup Dave but I guess I didn't phrase the
question correctly (or state that my interest is that of an experienced
deep diver who was wondering about the rationale behind buildup
programs).

I realise (from personal knowledge) that with experience one can be
expected to increase ones tolerance to the effects of NN, my question
was is this increased tolerance due to physiological changes in the
diver or just the result of beig exposed to the effects and learning to
compensate for them?

>Your best route to take for such an endeavor is to get some training from
>an experienced deep diving instructor, who can provide you with a well
>structured training program, and close supervision during your buildup
>to greater and greater depths.
>
>Also, I would strongly urge you to purchase/rent/borrow a completely
>redundant breathing system adequate for the depth of the dive, as at
>these depths free ascent is not an option. a 13.4 cuft pony bottle is
>good to for about 150 feet, 30 cuft will get you down to 200. Beyond that
>you should be breathing trimix or heliox anyway, and you'd need doubles
>as a minimum.

Errr - I think that I am fairly experience with deep (air) diving having
done quite a number of 50 meter dives over the past eight years, does
this count?

I (always) dive with twin 7 litre 300 bar cylinders (150 cuft), a pony
(30 cuft) and an 0.8 litre air cylinder on my jacket with a breathable
valve.  Is this sufficient redundancy ? :-)

>To do this safely takes some work; but please don't do it any other way.
>None of us want to read about you in the next issue of _Alert Diver_.

I don't think that DAN would write about me as I'm based in England!

TTFN (Tally Ho Chaps! Toot Toot! Pip Pip! and other English type sayings).
-- 
Regards,
        Russell
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Russell Brown          | MAIL : russell@kings.demon.co.uk                 |
| Lady Lodge Systems     | PHONE: 0832 272224 (Home/Work it's all the same) |
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.scuba
From: wueller@nagoya.sni.de (Ulrich Wueller)
Subject: Oil in the tank!
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 10:54:53 GMT
Organization: Siemens Nixdorf Info.Sys. AG, Paderborn, Germany
Keywords: oil


Hi!

Due to a broken compressor I have got some oil in my tanks. Who has an
advice for getting it out? Do chemicals have an impact on the quaility
of the air?

Thanks for any hint!

+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Ulrich Wueller                                                        |
| SNI AG                        Phone: +49-5251-8-35218                 |
| STO SI 212                    Fax  : +49-5251-8-35209                 |
| Riemekestr. 160               Email: wueller.pad@sni.de      (Europa) |
| D-4790 Paderborn                     wueller.pad@sni-usa.com    (USA) |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+

Newsgroups: rec.scuba
From: njs@scifi.uucp (Nicholas J. Simicich)
Subject: Re: Good Prices on Tanks
Organization: Nick Simicich, Peekskill, NY
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 23:59:45 GMT

In article <174pqjINN7m6@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> jdale@cats.ucsc.edu (Jonathan Dale) writes:
>
>I need a tank or two, within the next month or so, so I've started looking
>around at prices.  I want an Aluminum 80 cu.ft. tank, because something
>bigger would be excessive for what I do but I breathe too much for anything
>smaller (I'm working on that).  Up here in Seattle, Wash (yeah, yeah, ignore
>the header for the moment), they tend to run around $130, and "On Sale" means
>$120, a whole 8.7% off.  Great.  Gee whiz.  Salesman told me that they cost
>the store $95 wholesale, and they couldn't afford to drop it anymore, even
>during their big once a year sale. Whee.  Okay, so I thought I'd try
>mail-order.  Called this place in Florida, they tell me $130 by mail, but
>if I walk in just $90.  Now there's a deal, and it sure looks like the salesman
>above is giving me that typical dive-store BS (okay, dive stores fall into
>two groups, ones that lie to you, and ones that overcharge; yes, I'm a cynic).
>Well, this tells me mail-order is not the way to go -- $40 s/h? Not. But 
>Florida is a long drive for a tank, you know?

In actual fact, the wholesale price on an AL 80 tank does run around
$95 for generic tanks with valves.  The store in Florida that has the
$90 walk-in price is probably a bulk purchaser that gets the tanks a
little cheaper (probably not any cheaper than $85, more likely $90),
and is willing to sell a walk-in a tank at/near/slightly below cost
*because they expect to make up something on impulse purchases that
the person makes once they walk into the store*.  Also, there has to
be some charge for mail-order (in this case, packing) that is not
incurred on a walk-in.

So offhand, your dive shop was giving you a straight story.  They told
you the wholesale price that they were paying for the tank, and what
they felt that they had to make on it to make it worth their while to
sell it.  I'd say that (1) they weren't overcharging you, since the
typical scuba mark-up is higher than that, although tanks are
typically a little low (2) they were being honest with you.  Tuck
your tail between your legs, be thankful that you've found a good
honest local dive shop, and go back there to buy your tanks.  Or save
$10-$20, and go somewhere else.  Your choice.

>SO, does anyone know a good place to get a tank?  I'll go anywhere on the
>West Coast, no kidding, I have to drive down from here to school in Santa Cruz,
>California anyway, so I may as well make a detour.  If there's a discount
>for volume I might get 2 or 3 (I'm going to do a LOT of diving this year).  
>
>BTW, I made the distribution USA, I doubt the rest of the world wants to know
>where to buy tanks in the US.

For some reason, it didn't take.

-- 
Nick Simicich - uunet!bywater!scifi!njs - njs@watson.ibm.com
SSI #AOWI 3958, HSA 318, NAUI #14065
Join the movement ---  turn 'to bush' into a verb.
Newsgroups: rec.scuba
From: keulen@possum.csu.murdoch.edu.au (Mike van Keulen)
Subject: Re: more BC questions...
Organization: Murdoch University
Date:  3 Sep 92 05:45:40 GMT

leonglaw@hpsgm2.sgp.hp.com (Lawrence LEONG) writes:

>IMHO this is only an issue on the surface.  About the only type of BC that
>will reliabily float you face up is the horsecollar BC (ABLJ to our English
>friends).  For this reason (among others) BCs are not certified as life
>jackets.  Under water, as Chris points out, this face-down feature is less of 
>an issue.

Does this mean that horsecollars (yes - I'm a happy user of a horsecollar)
_are_ eligible as life jackets?  I guess this differs from country to country.

Mike
--
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|                            Michael van Keulen                            |
| Snail: School of BES - Biology         e-mail: keulen@murdoch.edu.au     |
|        Murdoch University              phone:  ++ 61 (09) 360-2843 (work)|
|        Murdoch WA 6150  AUSTRALIA              ++ 61 (09) 417-3902 (home)|
|                           "To Love is to _LIVE_!"                        |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: don@dlong.austin.ibm.com
Newsgroups: rec.scuba
Subject: hurricane spoils trip
Date: 24 Aug 92 16:34:58 GMT
Followup-To: donlong@voyager.austin.ibm.com
Distribution: usa
Organization: IBM, Austin

My wife and I were planning on going diving in Bimini, which is 50 miles
east of Miami.  We were planning on being there 9/3-9/8, but the recent
hurricane (Andrew ?) went right over the top of the island and we fear that
Bimini Undersea Adventures will be closed for some weeks to come.

Has anyone had experience with dive resorts in this kind of situation ?  Did
you get a refund ?  How about the airlines : did they give you any kind of
break ?

-- 
===============================================================================
Donald Long                       email:    donlong@austin.ibm.com
Advanced Workstation Division     VNET:     donlong@ausvm6.austin.ibm.com
IBM Corporation                   internet: donlong@voyager.austin.ibm.com
Newsgroups: rec.scuba
From: njs@scifi.uucp (Nicholas J. Simicich)
Subject: Re: Nitrox (Was Re: Thermodynamic Decompression)
Organization: Nick Simicich, Peekskill, NY
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 04:12:10 GMT

In article <1992Aug24.234814.19701@odin.corp.sgi.com> mango@nova.esd.sgi.com (Eric Manghise) writes:

>Yes, tanks are routinely color coded. ALmost always yellow with a
>green top and the words NITROX clearly written on the tanks. At least
>in the circles I dive in. There has been no talk about different
>valves though. Putting a different size valve on would mean my
>POSIEDONS wouldnt work anymore, and I would have to by a special
>adaptor. Sounds like a money making scheme to me and I dont see the
>need for it.

Most divers don't see the need for it, but it looks like the CGA is
going to push for a new valve, and if they do, I suspect that you
won't be able to buy Nitrox in tanks without the special valve.  I
personally believe that this will cause more backyard mixing.

I think that I heard this from the ANDI folks last DEMA.


-- 
Nick Simicich - uunet!bywater!scifi!njs - njs@watson.ibm.com
SSI #AOWI 3958, HSA 318, NAUI #14065
Join the movement ---  turn 'to bush' into a verb.
Newsgroups: rec.scuba
From: njs@scifi.uucp (Nicholas J. Simicich)
Subject: Re: Nitrox (Was Re: Thermodynamic Decompression)
Organization: Nick Simicich, Peekskill, NY
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 04:23:22 GMT

In article <1992Aug24.234734.19448@mailer.cc.fsu.edu> mayne@cs.fsu.edu writes:

>This is standard agency advice in a country like the U.S.A. which has
>far too many lawyers. It doesn't make sense, though. What matters is
>partial pressure of O2, which is lower when the tank is initially
>partly filled with 100% O2 than after it has been topped off with air
>and the O2 diluted to 40%. It is amazing how many people, even nitrox
>instructors, don't realize this simple fact, i.e. they think that the
>PPO2 drops when you add air to the tank, decreasing the percentage of
>O2. Actual practice in Florida is that nitrox is mixed in tanks which
>have received no special treatment all the time.  This is usually
>done with low pressure steel tanks. Look at it this way: At 2640 psi
>the PPO2 of 36% nitrox is not all that much higher than the PPO2 of
>air in a Genesis tank filled to 3500 psi, and lower than in banks
>filled to 5000. I'm not claiming that the methods used are ideal, but
>they seem to work in practice.

Bill, I think you are wrong on this one.  One counter example:
Hydrox, the Hydrogen/Oxygen mix that is used by Comex on the deep
dives has a PP of O2 that is comparable with 1 ATA normoxic PP O2, yet
doesn't support combustion (or it would, since the hydrogen is quite
flammable).

I suspect that the other gases in the mix do exert a buffering effect
on combustion.  Acetylene-Air cannot reach the same flame temperatures
as Acetylene-Oxygen.

>It sounds the same, substituting "yellow" for "gold". The standard
>calls for a yellow tank with a 4 inch green band just below the curve
>part at the top, and "NITROX ONLY" in 1 inch "oxygen green" lettering
>5 inches from the bottom, on the back of the tank. This is from the
>IAND Nitrox Manual. I've seen very few tanks actually marked this
>way. Since we are speaking about an oxygen enriched environment and
>I'll probably get enough flames for what I've already said I won't
>tell you how nitrox tanks actually get marked in many cases.

A paper tag attached to the neck?  A nitrox bumper sticker shoved
under the tank net?  I've seen both of these.
-- 
Nick Simicich - uunet!bywater!scifi!njs - njs@watson.ibm.com
SSI #AOWI 3958, HSA 318, NAUI #14065
Join the movement ---  turn 'to bush' into a verb.
Newsgroups: rec.scuba
From: mayne@pipe.cs.fsu.edu (William Mayne)
Subject: Re: Information about advanced deep diving course wanted
Reply-To: mayne@cs.fsu.edu
Organization: Florida State University Computer Science Department
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 92 19:06:20 GMT

In article <1992Sep2.170103.14706@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com> peterson@hpl.hp.com (Chris Peterson) writes:
>
>	NAUI does offer a "deep diving" specialty course and, starting
>	this year, a mixed gas specialty course.
>...
>	The Mixed Gas Diving Specialty course covers ANDI (American 
>	Nitrox Diving, Inc.?) Nitrox I and Nitrox II, and the course
>	instructor must have successfully completed ANDI's instructor
>	course.

Say it ain't so. Calling a nitrox course "mixed gas", while technically
correct (even air is mixed gas) goes against standard usage and can
only add to confusion and the false idea that nitrox diving is a high
tech, advanced, dangerous activity. Why don't they just call it what
is, "Nitrox", like ANDI and IAND?

>	It's interesting to note that, according to DAN statistics,
>	repetitive diving and multiday diving are greater risk factors
>	than depth.

Not surprising, and something to think about seriously.

>  Now, consider the kind of diving most people
>	do on vacation (me too):
>	
>		4-5 days 
>		3-5 dives/day 
>		60-100fsw
>
>	That's repetitive, multiday, *and* deep (>60fsw).

Well, not really deep in the context of physiology and decompression
considerations, just training at the beginning levels.

Bill Mayne
Newsgroups: rec.scuba
From: rcollins@encore.com (Roger Collins)
Subject: Re: Information about advanced deep diving course wanted
Organization: Encore Computer Corporation
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 15:40:41 GMT

daigle@APOLLO.HP.COM (Joe Daigle) writes:

>Instructors, please dont flame me for this comment, but teaching diving should be a 
>hell of a lot more than taking us into the water.  Whenever I ask about what I will
>gain from taking such and such a specialty course, the answer I get is "well, we take
>you on x dives in that environment".   Big deal.  While I may be asking for too much,
>I would also like to see a book given in each specialty course as well.

You should complain to the group that certifies the instructor.

I was *very* impressed with the PADI course I just took.  I had to spend
time reading, doing homework, watching videos, listening to lectures,
pool sessions, taking a final exam, and finally, 4 OW dives.  Among
those that didn't get certified in my class, one didn't turn in his
homework, one didn't take the final, and one didn't pass the 200 yard
swimming test.  I cynically expected the instructor to pass everyone
to make her customers happy.

On a totally different subject (feel free to change the header),
I just completed the OW dives Sunday and there is still (Thursday) a lot
of pressure in my ears.  I hope recreational dives aren't has hard on
my ears.  Will making slow descents and ascents help a lot?  Do your
ears actually get "tougher," or accustomed, to the pressure changes?
(I don't expect to make many emergency swimming ascents, recreationally.)
My Doc said the ascents were more damaging than the descents.  This
true?  The descent "felt" worse.  But feeling air escape out my ears
on the ascent didn't seem very natural either.
From: Mahan_Stephen@LANMAIL.NCSC.NAVY.MIL
Newsgroups: rec.scuba
Subject: Deep diving; Thermal effects of peeing in wetsuit
Date: 4 Sep 92 15:15:00 GMT


I would like to address two topics; the US Navy's position on deep
diving, and the thermal effects of peeing in a wetsuit.


First, deep diving.  With a no-d limit (US Navy scuba) of 5 minutes at 
130 feet and below, a maximum descent speed of 75 feet/min, and having 
bottom time start when you leave surface, there is very little time to 
accomplish anything useful on scuba below 130 ft.  However, with the 
permission of your CO (commanding officer), dives on scuba are permitted 
to 170 fsw.  With permission of higher authority 190 fsw is allowed on 
scuba.  Surface supplied divers on air may be allowed as deep as 285 
fsw.  In fact, one of the qualification dives for first class diver is a 
checkout dive to 285 fsw equivalent in a hard hat suit underwater in a 
pressure chamber on air.  Narced to the max; guys forget how to stand up 
among other things.  A navy diver received the Medal of Honor for work 
on air at 300 fsw during WW II (a submarine rescue).  The mixed gas/
saturation guys go DEEP.  

The only extra energy needed to keep urine warm in the body is related to the
extra surface area of the body due to skin stretching over the full 
bladder and the heat loss throught that extra area.  The urine 
is inert and takes no energy to maintain temperature.  It is basically
filtered from the bloodstream, which is already at core temperature.  It
is created at body temperature and remains at that temperature until after
it leaves the body. (OK, if the channel the urine passes through on the
way to the great outer world is chilled, there may be some heat transfer
along the way. However, in this case it will be a short trip :-) Releasing
this warm fluid into the wetsuit displaces some colder fluid in contact
with the skin, raising the average temperature of the surrounding fluids,
and thereby reducing the rate of heat loss.  The effect is minor but 
feels pretty good.


steve
NED basic physics monitor.

Newsgroups: rec.scuba