HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: masonic morals & dogma
Date: 10 Apr 92 16:31:31 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

John A. Johnson <J5J@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:

>It would seem to me that the "naturalistic" explanation for Masons excluding
>women can be found in Lionel Tiger's _Men In Groups_.  This anthropologist
>points to the universality of men's groups across time and in different
>cultures, and sees this as related to the need for male solidarity in
>the hunt.

A possible origin, but not really applicable any more.

>An esoteric explanation of the practice of excluding women was given to
>me by a fellow Mason who is also a priest of the Liberal Catholic Church.
>His explanation is that the different psychological/spiritual makeup of
>men and women would require that women perform some of the rituals in
>reverse (left-handed) from the male version.  Thus, it would be difficult
>to integrate male and female ritualistic practices together.  This
>explanation also applies to ritualistic practices in his church.

Pardon me while I scream. :-(  
This is simply a convention that he accepts.  It is not inherently true.
In fact, I doubt very much that anyone except a man could possibly have 
generated this concept.  I am right-handed-->left-handedness is other-->
women are the epitome of other-->therfore, women must do everything significant
with their left hands, so that I can clearly see that they are other.
What do they do about left-handed men?  How do they explain that the majority
of women are right-handed?  Why is someone as feminist As MZ Bradley involved
with them?  (Sorry, I think I got carried away at the end there.)

              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
                               Br'anArthur

Queer, Peculiar, and Weird! :-)
From: cward@dseg.ti.com (Christopher Ward)
Subject: Qabala/Alchemy Class Offered
Keywords: alchemy qabala class
Reply-To: christopher.ward@dseg.ti.com
Organization: Perhaps some, but not too much...
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 21:05:15 GMT

QABALA/ALCHEMY CLASS
====================

Hans W. Nintzel is presenting a class in basic Qabala and Alchemy.
This will teach one fundamentals, priciples, terminology and
techniques.  If you are interested in transmuting your life through
making of potent medicines, through the Spiritual disciplines of
Qabala, this class is a MUST!  If you want to attend advanced classes
from this teacher or Dr. M. Junius', here is an opportunity to learn
from a living teacher who has *done it before*.  As prior students will
tell you, Mr. Nintzel does not try to give what he doesn't have.  This
is also for those wishing to refresh their knowledge of basics.

The nominal tuition is a modest $125 for new students and $100 for
repeat students for the two days.  To enroll, send a $25 non-refundable
deposit to reserve space.  We DO limit enrollment to 16 students.  If
you wish to pre-pay, take a $25 discount from the fee.  If you cannot
afford the fee, contact me and we can work something out.  I am more
interested in gaining sincere students than worry about the finances.

All weekend classes start at 10:00 am and end around 5:00 pm.  I say
"around" because if we are "on a roll", we go as long as you want to
go.  We will eat, walk, talk and do lab work together, bathing in an
atmosphere of alchemy.  It will be intense, but fun.  I provide a
plethora of handouts.  What is important is for you to meet people of
like mind and share with local, out of state, and even out of country
people!

What you get is 16-20 hours of practical, usable information.  No mere
'airy-fairy' theory without praxis.  This is REAL, invaluable, "hands
on" classroom and lab work dealing with protective rituals, talismans,
ceremonials, lab techniques, concepts, definitions, alchemical products
and a great many success stories to show you this works and to
encourage you.  The next class is scheduled in Dallas, TX sometime in
August (exact date set to students' best match).  Please contact as
soon as you decide you want to attend.

You probably have seen Hans' articles in FATE or GNOSIS magazines or
perhaps in the Time Life Book "Secrets of the Alchemists" or maybe
on TV.  He is a member of several hermetic societies and studied with
Dr. Israel Regardie (Qabala) and Frater Albertus (Alchemy) at PRS.

Got questions?  Need to talk cash flow?  I can even accomodata a few
folk to 'crash' at the house.  Call or write:

		Hans W. Nintzel
		733 Melrose Drive
		Richardson, Tx  75080
		Home: (214) 238-9877
		Work: (214) 330-3207
From: shava@gibbs.oit.unc.edu (Shava Nerad Averett)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Ouija
Date: 6 Apr 92 17:59:03 GMT
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill

In article <1992Apr2.053018.2054@news.nd.edu> swehmeye@monet.helios.nd.edu (stephen wehmeyer) writes:
>Lets get real,
>No more teenage horror stories here please,

Yup.  Teenage horror stories are a self-perpetuating entity.  Folks who are
young enough to be excited/afraid of their own potential, and who have seen
too many Elm_Street movies, should not EVER EVER use Ouija boards.  BAD
things will happen to them, almost guaranteed.  And these are just the
kind of folks who are attracted.  Try getting a tarot deck.  By the time
you have learned enough about the correspondences without cribbing on a
book, I bet you'll be a lot safer dealing with them...


-- 
Shava Nerad Averett				shava_averett@unc.edu
/*  all materials (c)1992, Shava Nerad Averett, and have nothing significant
    to do with the University of North Carolina, a mostly owned subsidiary 
    of the NC Legislature, a mostly owned subsidiary of the DOT.      */
From: cal@otter.hpl.hp.com (Colin Low)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 21:39:59 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Liber Reguli and Pentagram directions
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Bristol, UK.
Newsgroups: alt.magick

rjb@milton.u.washington.edu (LeGrand Cinq-Mars)  writes:

>I can imagine that he actually read Waite; it's not as easy to imagine
>that he'd actually read much Crowley.  Scholem seems to have made his
>distinction between "genuine" and "humbug" along the lines of cultural
>history:  what fit what one might call the "primary cultural matrix"
>of the Kabbalah, the Jewish religious and cultural context that gave
>the texts and teachers a common background project, was for him
>"genuine;" claims made about the Kabbalah that had no root in that
>context were "humbug."  By those standards, Levi was arguably the author 
>of humbug:  Levi makes claims about that specific context.  By the time
>one gets to Crowley, however, that's really not the case. Crowley's
>stance toward, and claims about, that material, are neither "genuine"
>nor "humbug," because Crowley's claims have almost nothing to do with
>Kabbalah as Scholem understood it, or as Scholem was interested in it.

If I attempt to see the world through Scholem's extremely scholastic spectacles
I can see why he might claim Crowley's Kabbalah is "highly coloured humbug" 
(love that phrase), but there is one sense in which Crowley is closer to 
medieval Kabbalah than most of his contemporaries, and that is in his
extensive use of gematria for textual interpretation, and also in his
attempts to discover words of power. Liber Al vel Legis isn't the Bible,
but in the spirit of what Crowley was trying to do he comes very, very
close indeed to an antique and authentick (sic) Kabbalah. He seems to have
neglected the Abulafian-style letter meditation and concentration 
exercises without which gematria becomes (IMHO) more of an intellectual
exercise than a technique of practical mysticism.

Colin  

 
Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.pagan
From: spg@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Stephen P. Guthrie)
Subject: Psychic
Originator: spg@Xenon.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 03:34:00 GMT

Does anyone know of a good psychic in the San Jose area?
Are there any on the net? I'd like an opinion on some big
decisions that I'm considering.

Reply by email, pls.


Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: joshua@coombs.anu.edu.au (Joshua Geller)
Subject: Re: Asatru, Was Re: Request for info on Celtic/Norse Myths and Practices
Organization: Computer Services Centre, Australian National University
Date: 11 Apr 92 13:37:50 GMT

tncp9@isuvax.iastate.edu (D. Pendragon) writes:

>In article <92100.000148IO81409@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>, IO81409@MAINE.MAINE.EDU (Ailsa N.T. Murphy) writes:
>>is there room in asatru for a somewhat individualistic lesbian
>>feminist?  i've been intrigued by it for quite a while - that

>Asatru...May I ask, what is that?

nordic paganism (odin and thor etc)

>>Voudun, on the other hand, i don't get into further because i


>Once again, my lack of knowledge on this surprises me.  What is Voudun?
>Do these things require one to be female in order ot practice it?  Is it a
>magickal tradition?

voudon is an afrochristiansyncretism ('voodoo'). these are actually
religions, strictly speaking, not magickal traditions (though voudon,
inparticular, incorporates a lot of magickal practice).

josh
From: Gerald_Del_Campo@sorinc.UUCP (Gerald Del Campo)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: OES and Pentagrams
Distribution: world
Date: 9 Apr 92 13:19:00 PDT
Organization: Shades of Reality BBS

In a message dated Tue  7 Apr 92 17:26, Sk4p+@andrew.cmu.edu (shawn Clayton
wrote:

 SC> the OES (thank you, i forgot to clarify) is the Order of the Eastern
 SC> Star.  its roots are in "Adoptive Masonry" which indeed was
 SC> originally
 SC> an order for Masons' wives and daughters.  i do not believe
 SC> membership
 SC> any longer requires this.  

The Order of The Eastern Star and job's Daughters was a way that the
incredibly sexist Order of Masons could pacify their wives and
daughters...and nothing more.  The Order of The Eastern Star teaches women
how to be "good wives" according to biblical dogma.

Just my 2 cents

Gerald

-- Via DLG Pro v0.991
From: haynes@apple.com (Charles Haynes)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Enochian Magick (a la John Dee)
Date: 8 Apr 92 17:07:17 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer

In article <1992Apr4.001634.17698@ccu.umanitoba.ca>, mayor@ic15.umeeng (Cam "You didn't see me!" Mayor) writes:
> 
> In article 22322@goofy.Apple.COM, haynes@apple.com (Charles Haynes) writes:
> >
> >You are a fool.
> >
> >	-- Charles
> 
> Strong words from a fellow fool!  Aren't we all?
> 

If we are all fools, the words were not strong. If the words are strong, we
are not all fools. You then are either a liar, or a fool.

That's logic.

I am a liar, not a fool.

	-- Charles
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: jlevitt@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mortiana)
Subject: Re: Sex Magick
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 10:45:14 GMT

tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) writes:

>In article <qZuyiB3w164w@netlink.cts.com>, misha@netlink.cts.com
>(Michael Glosson) writes:
>>>>>Why do you want to practice sex magick?  

>tncp9@isuvax.iastate.edu (D. Pendragon) writes:
>>>>Why not?

>ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:
>>>Because sex is a lousy reason to learn magic.  Sex magic doesn't do anything
>>>(except play with your head) if you are not already experienced with magic.

>What experiences of yours lead you to say this?  I know people who began
>their magical studies with sex magic and proceeded to learn nonsexual
>techniques.  What qualifies you to describe their experience as invalid?

>>>Most folks who want to learn sex magic (who are not learning it as a later
>>>step in learning a whole range of magical techniques) are jsut looking to
>>>make sex more exciting.  If you need to make sex more exciting, you have
>>>a problem which magic will not fix--it might make it work.  Try a therapist
>>>or one of the Twelve-step programs which deal with sexual addiction.

>In article <joshua.702999787@coombs> joshua@coombs.anu.edu.au (Joshua Geller)
>writes:
>>hey BA, fuck off eh? where do you get off rendering judgements on other 
>>people in this manner (oh, I forget, you always have done that ... sorry).
>>
>>the human asks a simple question and youassume he needs a therapist or a 
>>twelve step program? how did you get to be such an asshole anyway?

Whatever happened to everyone being able to express their own opinions?

>It's a rather incredible arrogance he has, but one that's hardly
>unusual in the occult and pagan communities.  People often seem the
>most opinionated on those subjects they understand least.  With
>Davis-Howe, that covers quite a broad area.

>Let's see, on top of saying that anyone who is interested in sex magic
>needs to enroll in a twelve-step program for "sexual addiction" (a
>concept, by the way, completely without any empirical basis, and touted
>by the same kind of drivel-spouting psychotherapy junkies who are
>bringing us the "Satanic survivors" crap), we all recall previous
>forays of Davis-Howe into such noble stands as "I have made no effort
>to read and understand Aleister Crowley, but here's a few hundred lines
>on why he is so awful" and "why should beliefs and thoughts be examined
>critically?  I never have, and look at me!"

>The man is dim.  That's all there is to it.

>>"[BA] says wicca is green and fuzzy...sounds like mold."
>>                        peggy brown

>Or like the inside of his head....
>-- 
I have spoken with BA many a time before and agree with what he says.  I was also present at the time of the green and fuzzy discussion of wicca. It _IS_ 
wicca in a nutshell! one sentence. can you do any better?
>Tim Maroney, Communications and User Interface Engineer
>{apple!sun}!hoptoad!tim, tim@toad.com

Mortiana
a.k.a. julie levitt
a.k.a. Opal
From: dantonio@magick.tay2.dec.com (David D'Antonio)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: What is reality?
Date: 17 Apr 92 16:52:21 GMT
Reply-To: dantonio@flashy.tay2.dec.com
Organization: None to speak of...


In article <1992Apr16.213627.16873@ccu.umanitoba.ca>, mayor@ic16.umeeng (Cam "You didn't see me!" Mayor) writes:

[stuff deleted]

|>>such system. Can you tell me the difference between a system that
|>>isn't deterministic and one that is, but so sensitive to initial
|>>conditions that you cannot predict it's behaviour beyond a few
|>>minutes?
|>
|>  I can't give you (I really wish I could) an example of a system that
|>I know is not deterministic.  Chaos gives the appearance of randomness,
|>but is still deterministic if you *know* the seeds.  ie. If you had a
|>value of k=1.23 and plugged that into a chaotic system, you would get
|>the SAME response every time, but if you plugged in k=1.230000000000000
|>00000000000000001, it would appear the same for quite a while, but would
|>start to diverge from the 1.23 case, eventually snowballing into 
|>something totally different.  If you ran the case again with the value
|>of k=1.230000...001 again, the outcome would be the same as the last
|>time you ran it.

Ah yes, I'm sure it would be repeatable. The trouble comes in when
trying to predict the behaviour of a physical system. Given the
sensitivity to initial conditions (STIC), any model you have of the
system will diverge rapidly from the "real thing" because you can't
measure the inital values accurately enough. Getting the right values
for neurotransmitters out to enough decimal places is become our
(current) capabilites. And so, the brain remains "unpredictable".

|>  Yeah, I know what you mean.  I think that (more or less) everything
|>I do could be predicted, given intimate knowledge of my internal 
|>workings...BUT I have felt quite complimented when people have told
|>me (they didn't know it was a compliment) that "Cam, I have tried to
|>understand why you do things, and as far as I can see, everything you
|>do is totally random".  It's all perspective in this case.

That "intimate knowledge of my internal workings" is damn hard to get.
I have trouble understanding my OWN internal workings ("Now why the
hell did I sign up for this??" :-). Just think, though; you'll be a
hard target for an assassin if you're random! 

|>cam
|>
|>Disclaimer: Booga Booga!

Disclaimer: Wooga Wooga!
DDA

--
dantonio@magick.tay2.dec.com -or- dantonio@sword1.enet.dec.com
  I've tried to dance with what life had to hand me
    My partner's been pleasure, my partner's been pain
				-Stevie Nicks
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: miss059@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Pug)
Subject: Re: Money for Magick?
Organization: Pug's Pub and Pleasure Palace
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 12:38:06 GMT

In article <1992Apr07.203515.23309@demon.co.uk> Leo Smith <shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk> writes:
>I would say that anyone who charges money for magick will get what is
>coming to them.

I would just say that anyone who charges money for magick either needs
the money real bad or doesn't know enough about magick to be any harm.
Most of the people I've met that work magick well don't seem to care for
money type goods. If they need something they have it, but that is
different than wanting money. Money is more of a social trophy than a
material object.

As for myself, I don't care for money. It sorta makes me unhappy when I
have it, so I just spend it damn freely. Of course I'm not hurting for
anything I need and I get quite a few of the things I want. Luckily I
don't need much and only want a few of the luxuries of life.

>P.S. Tell me how you tell right from wrong, and I might be able to
>respond more exactly.

How do I tell right from wrong? It just is. Of course the problem with
this is that every person that exists has their own right and wrong,
just like each and every person has their own gods. Gods may have
similar attributes, but in reality are slightly different in each
person's perspective.

Take care.

-- 
Richard Bainter          Mundanely     |       "Teachers are supposed to
Phelim Utred Gervas      Society       |        teach you *HOW* to learn 
Pug                      Generally     |        not *WHAT* to learn."   
  miss059@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu  |  pug@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu  |  pug@wixer.UUCP
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: tncp9@isuvax.iastate.edu (D. Pendragon)
Subject: Re: Sex Magick
Reply-To: tncp9@isuvax.iastate.edu
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1992 05:13:58 GMT

In article <qZuyiB3w164w@netlink.cts.com>, misha@netlink.cts.com (Michael Glosson) writes:
>DAHUGH@LIVERPOOL.AC.UK writes:
>
>> First,apologies if I may have missed any previous threads on the subject.
>> 
>> Can anyone help me in finding out about Sex Magick?I know very little
>> about it and wish to know from an academic viewpoint.Possibly I may
>> consider practising if I find a worthwhile cause and the rites are
>> agreeable.
>> 
> 
>Why do you want to practice sex magick?  
> 
>m

Why not?

>
>--                    
>INTERNET:  misha@netlink.cts.com (Michael Glosson)
>UUCP:   ...!nosc!ryptyde!netlink!misha
>NetLink Online Communications * Public Access in San Diego, CA (619) 435-6181


-D.Pendragon
From: Tagi@cup.portal.com (Tagi Mordred Nagashiva)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Sex Magick
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 92 09:24:20 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)

9204.16


Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
The word of Sin is Restriction.


Michael Glosson, Tim Maroney and a host of others comment about 'sex magick'
and their recommendations for its practice.  I respond to the general tone:


It seems to me that the whole idea behind 'Thelema' is not to impose one's
viewpoints upon others, not to say what is right for others, not to invade 
another person's life and perspective, idealogically raping it by telling
them what is right or wrong about them or their ideas.  This would seem to
apply to the discussion and practice of sex magick also.


Some people like structure.  We like to adopt a recipe in order to
engage the purity of our intent.  We like to hook our Will onto the
Star of our Destiny and ride the Current to its resolution.  For us,
self-imposed restriction is useful.  We may think of recreational sex
as something we would rather avoid.  We may think that sex magick involves
specific exercises with definite goals in mind.

Some of us like spontaneity.  We like to toss aside the rules and
regulations and 'wing it'.  We take our Will and follow our intuition into
the dark, unexplored recesses of our minds and lives.  For us, self-imposed
restriction is anathema.  We can learn best from letting things go, rather
than holding them to.  We may think that recreational sex is something that
is perfect for us.  We may think that sex magick involves coming to a deep
connection with our partner(s) and ourselves without the roles and rules
and silly games which are already attached to the Game of Love.


I don't think that there is One Right True Way.  Even for myself 
the path seems to change so often that it is difficult to define.
Sometimes I want rules and structure, sometimes I want freedom and boundless-
ness.  To me, sex magick can be as specific as a practice wherein I drink
the primordial ooze from which I was born, or as general as to encompass every
bit of my wildly varying life.

If nothing else, for me it MUST include Love.  Without Love it becomes a
mechanical process of lifeless stagnation.  Will gives it power, Love gives
it meaning.  Sex magick is what we make of it.



Invoke me under my stars!  Love is the law, love under will.


Yours in fondness,

Nigris, O'
From: DPMT@UQEVE.CC.UQ.OZ.AU (Matthew S Trevor)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Piers Anthony's ``Tarot
Date: 7 Apr 92 16:49:56 GMT
Article-I.D.: ucbvax.9204070149.AA02062

I know the series is a work of fiction, but I'm interested in finding out
how plausible Anthony's explanation on the origin of the tarot is.

I'd also like opinions on his `Vision' tarot (from those who have read the
series), with its extra suit and trump cards.

Please email.


Matthew T
From: phantom@Bogus.COM (The Internet Phantom)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: jB
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 92 01:46:53 CDT
Organization: Bogus.COM -- Public Access Network Services

dlawn@peg.pegasus.oz.au writes:

> Speculation:-
> Consider a hypothetical artificial intelligence,
> of comparable intellect to man, and Self Aware.
> Compare with one which is also possessed of Free Will.
> Which, if either, have rights as an individual?
> Which, if either, has a soul?
> Can Free Will be created by science?
> Will Self Awareness occur spontaneously if the AI is complex enough?
> Will Free Will occur spontaneously if the AI is complex enough.
> Can Magick be used with science to create Free Will?
> Would an AI with Free Will be capable of acts of Magick
>   (I mean those outside of explanation by science)?
> Are we AI's with Free Will?
> Are we (provably) capable of acts of Magick?
> What constitutes proof, beyond all reasonable doubt?
> 
> Don Lawn,
> Masterless Apprentice.


Wow.  That IS interesting.  Assuming we create an AI with this free will, 
and a "SUPER" intellect, the posibilites, if indeed the "being" was 
capable of magick, are stagering.

===
* phantom@Bogus.COM (The Internet Phantom) * via CyberSpace Cafe
My opinions are my own.  They may or may not be shared by the management.
From: shava@gibbs.oit.unc.edu (Shava Nerad Averett)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: something more concrete?
Summary: martial arts as a foundation of magickal education
Date: 6 Apr 92 17:11:40 GMT
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill

My intro to yogic practice was in jr. high, when my parents got me into 
hatha yoga to help me with insomnia.  It worked somewhat too well -- to
this day, I nod off {_when meditating, too often...;-)

Next link in the chain was in high school, when my high school 
dance teacher was teaching us (quite unbeknownst to the school system)
a wonderful blend of tai ch'i and hatha and kundalini and pranayama (is
that right?) yoga.  Some of this, of course, I've figured out by reverse
engineering.  I don't know enough but I suspect there was a bit of aikido
in there.

Anyway, I found it really valuable.

-- 
Shava Nerad Averett				shava_averett@unc.edu
/*  all materials (c)1992, Shava Nerad Averett, and have nothing significant
    to do with the University of North Carolina, a mostly owned subsidiary 
    of the NC Legislature, a mostly owned subsidiary of the DOT.      */