From: garvin+@cs.cmu.edu (Susan Garvin)
Newsgroups: alt.rush-limbaugh
Subject: Re: Kicked out of a.f.d-q?  I don't think so
Date: 23 Dec 92 20:07:49 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

In article <nate.979@psygate.psych.indiana.edu> nate@psygate.psych.indiana.edu (Nathan Engle) writes:
#sgast+@pitt.edu (Susan Garvin) writes:
##I've seen posts in this newsgroup from both Chaney/Hall and Schmidling
##in the last week.  I don't think that they've "gone" anywhere.
#
#    Well, I must admit that I ignore a great deal of the traffic that 
#comes through here, but I can't recall any posts by Steve for a week or 
#so and none from Jack for over a month. I don't suppose you'd be willing 
#to quote me an NNTP header from one of them? (No, I suppose not, since 
#you don't even quote the text of articles to which you're responding...)

I quoted your every word this time.  I didn't realize that you
needed to see the original in the reply.  

My sites only keep articles in this newsgroup for a week, and there
are no longer any available from these two.  That means you're
right and I'm wrong, of course - they haven't posted in over a week.
I don't consider a one week absence all that meaningful, myself.

##I can understand your wish that everyone be welcomed in every newsgroup,
##but it's not a very realistic wish.  The existence of moderated
##groups and the frequent calls for more such groups are evidence of
##this.
#
#    This is the paragraph that I really wanted to respond to, because it's 
#not the first time that you've made the assumption that my motivation for 
#mentioning Chaney and Schmidling was that I want them to be welcomed 
#everywhere. I really thought that my whole point all along in this thread 
#was that these two guys were prime examples of people who are *NOT* welcomed 
#everywhere and that on that basis it's not too hard to see how Ted could 
#also get into the same predicament. 

Actually, I think these two guys are prime examples of people who
are not welcome anywhere.

Your point, as I saw it, was that people can be made to feel 
unwelcome in newsgroups.  My point was that "made to feel unwelcome"
is not the same as being "kicked out."  There's no way to exclude
someone from posting in an unmoderated newsgroup.  

#    As far as the increasing tendency towards moderated newsgroups is 
#concerned, I'm sure that you're correct, however I'm afraid that I see 
#the trend as somewhat undesirable. In my opinion the free and open 
#exchange of ideas loses a great deal of its value when the participants 
#on either side retreat into an environment of even well-intentioned 
#censorship.

I agree.  I don't like moderated newsgroups.  I can understand the
motivation (excluding meaningless flames), but, in practice, flames
aren't the only posts that are excluded.  

##I don't much care for people who can dish it out but not take it.  You
##may feel differently.  
#
#    No, I'm not sure just what I've said or done that's given you the 
#idea that I might disagree with you on that point, but maybe if I keep on 
#denying your incorrect implications then you'll eventually get the message 
#that I am not defending Steve or Jack but rather the right of free speech 
#to which they have just as great a claim to as you or me.

I don't see how their right to free speech has been abridged. They
can (and do) still post where they please.  

You seem to be arguing that Chaney/Hall and Schmidling have a
right to free speech, but those who argue against them do not.
(I've seen this argument before, from Chaney/Hall, in reference
to Gov. Casey's attempts to speak with protesters present.)
I think that people have an equal right to free speech, but
no one has the right to force people to listen to them.  

Susan

#--
#Nathan Engle                        Software Juggler
#Psychology Department               Indiana University
#nate@psygate.psych.indiana.edu      nengle@copper.ucs.indiana.edu
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