From: bkoike@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (Bryce Koike)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: Advantages
Date: 8 Nov 92 05:50:31 GMT
Organization: University of California, San Diego

In article <1992Nov4.200943.13261@news.tufts.edu> gharris@jade.tufts.edu (George W. Harris) writes:
>In article <04NOV92.14606772.0059@VM1.MCGILL.CA> CX6L@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA (CX6L000) writes:
>>In article <17132@mindlink.bc.ca> Nick_Janow@mindlink.bc.ca (Nick Janow) writes:
>>
>>The relevant thing is "do you really care"? GURPS super powers,
>>psi and cyberware are all advantages, and are all unnatural
>>abilities. I do not see why uncommon abilities such as Strong
>>or Weak Will, Immunity to Disease et al. should somehow be
>>treated differently. Uncommon versus unnatural. How do you
>>make that decision? Calling some advantages attributes and
>>others advantages requires that the question be answered. GURPS
>>simply takes the four traits *no* being can leave undefined
>>and calls them attributes. The rest depends on the campaign.
>
>	Why can't they leave these `undefined' by which I presume you mean
>average?  Since a high IQ is uncommon shouldn't it be an advantage, like 
>strong will?  After all, no one leaves their Will undefined?

	I leave my will "undefined" in most characters.  "Undefined"
means that your will, perception, etc, etc, are all equal to
whatever stat they are tied to.  It is, BY FAR, easier NOT to create
loads and loads of sub-sub-sub-stats.  The more you have, the less
that your stats really mean and the greater urge players have to
toss points into them for no reason than because they exist.
	From a character-creation standpoint, it also makes more
sense.  The advantages click with a character concept.  Whereas a
group of stats often only muddle it.  GURPS runs off of the idea
that a character has four main statistics which paint a very broad
picture of a character.  The rest is all considered fine-tuning and
because of that, they're NOT called stats.  They're not broad enough
to fit into the category.

>	Why not have a Will attribute and have IQ default from that?

	Because Will is far too specific to really be an official
statistic (or so I believe), and because then you need to declare
many more attributes:
	Attractiveness
	Charisma
	Perception
		Sight
		Hearing
		Taste
		...etc
	Will
	Healing (fast healing)
		immunity to disease

	Why does GURPS need 15+ statistics (actually around 20+...)?
People rarely alter much of the above and since they don't, it's
VERY easy to look at the appropriate stat (in most of the cases
above, it's IQ).  It's a system of simplification, granted, and not
everyone likes that, but I happen to prefer it to having tons of
"attributes" whose values are altered based on the game's setting.
(Social Rank, Attractiveness, etc, all depend on settings...I don't
like calling them attributes because there come times that they
simply don't apply.)
	It's NOT easier to make a huge list of these supposed
attributes.  Its worse, it removes the point of keeping them as
advantages, and it muddles what I've found to be a very nice method.
What use is calling something an attribute if most characters keep
it at its default level which happens to be equal to some OTHER
attribute?  Why not remember that Perception/Will/whatever all run
off of IQ?  Seems pretty simple to me.

>	Also, although characters may not leave these traits undefined,
>GURPS sure does.  IQ is a combination of a large number of distinct traits,
>all rolled into one round number.  That's not intuitive.  HT is both how

	In your opinion, of course.  If I make a character, I always
have a distinct concept in mind and make my character accordingly.
Again, the point is that GURPS stats ARE quite broad.  Have you
tried making GURPS characters that have 8+ stats?  The effects can
go from strange to downright unworkable.  There's nothing in the
rules that state that you have to follow everything by the book.  If
I want a character who "can't use guns," then he can't use guns.
He'll never learn them.  Not ever.

>much damage something can take and how resistant to disease/poison/shock/
>exposure it is, which are two very different thinks (compare a bison to a
>shrew).

	And if you really knew anything about GURPS, you'd know that
it's possible to make bison and shrews.  Maybe if you looked into
the 3rd Edition rules on HP vs. HT.  (And ST is a combination of
physical power and stamina....naughty naughty...and there's that
damn Extra Fatigue advantage...)
	Well, if you want GURPS MultiAttributes, you're welcome.
It's really easy to do, to be honest.  But the point is that adding
a ton of attributes which are just based off of some other stat and
more often than not aren't ever changed from that base value doesn't
simplify anything at all -- it makes things MORE complicated.

>	You are right that you do have to answer the question of what should
>be an attribute and what shouldn't.  IMNSHO, GURPS gave a pretty poor answer.

	Maybe you haven't played GUPRS enough, I don't know.  The
biggest problem (or gripe) seems to be Perception or Will.  There's
a lot of really simple fixes that come to mind and if people feel
confined to the rules provided, that's their problem.  Overall you
really need to give a better reason to convince me.  Adding 20+
statistics won't make GURPS better.

>>As far as I am concerned, a separate Sense or Will attribute
>>is unnecessary: it will be IQ for most, so why waste space?
>
>	A separate ST characteristic is unnecessary.  It will be 10 for 
>most, so why waste space?  Oh, you're not doing a high-tech campaign?

	The point is that it's not.

>	Similarly, in a horror campaign, Sense and Will might be very much
>more important than IQ, and so would tend to be bought up.  It's difficult
>to generalize when you're talking about a system that claims to be general.

	But it's not.  Stats are almost always increased BY FAR more
often than any advantage or disad that affects them.  That's why
they are stats and adv's/disad's are what they are.

>>If everything should be an attribute, then you must be willing
>>to accept *everything*! That means fantasy PCs with a 0 stat
>>in about 150 boxes marked "Morph Power", "Telepathy Power",
>>"Absorption", "Chip Jacks".....

	Well, I think that's overdoing things (grin).  But the idea
of adding extra attributes that don't ever get changed seems like a
waste of time to me and it will only serve to haze the line that
GURPS so nicely defines.  A Will of 13 means very little when
compared to a character with the Strong Will advantage or the Combat
Paralysis disadvantage.

>>realistic "feel" of PCs. One cannot easily reduce a GURPS
>>character to a dimension n matrix of numbers. The advantage
>>system is highly free-form and individualistic. It prevents
>>sameness and gives value to exceptional ability in one area
>>while relieving the player of the bother of recording non-
>>exceptional ability in one hundred areas.
>
>	Then you should have no problem with eliminating attributes 
>altogether, and creating the High and Low (and maybe Very High and Very Low)
>Strength, Health, Intelligence adn Dexterity advantages.  

	I don't see anything wrong with that, really, but since so
many things work straight off of those 4 major stats (contests of
skill, default skills, skills, etc, etc) it's much easier to put
them down on paper.
	Fiddled with an idea of eliminating attributes, but I tend
to like a broad definition of a character.

>	Gee, let's see.  Just have each entry in the matrix correspond to
>a particular potential advantage.  Voila!

	Why not remove all the advantages and just make everything
stats?  Boy, that makes my day.  Yes, I'm dripping with sarcasm.
But if you want AttributeGURPS, go right ahead.  Looking at tons of
numbers excites me as much as hearing about electron spin and How
So-And-So Got Soooooo Drunk At Tijuana...
	I still prefer the advantages and you need to give me a
really good reason to give them up.

>>|      Dr Manfred Kromm, Reverend of the Temple of the Squid God,    |
>--
>gharris@jade.tufts.edu          
>George W. Harris              	"He'd kill us if he had the chance."  
>Dept. of Mathematics            
>Tufts University              			The Conversation  


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