HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: elkies@ramanujan.harvard.edu (Noam Elkies)
Newsgroups: rec.music.compose
Subject: Re: Advances in composition
Date: 17 Dec 92 20:08:49 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1992Dec17.150850.18616
Organization: Harvard Math Department

In article <1gm36bINNeul@calvin.usc.edu> alves@calvin.usc.edu
(William Alves) writes:
"David V. Feldman writes:
"
"> In the opinions of readers of this group, what pieces of music
"> composed recently represent the most important theoretical 
"> developments in compositional technique.
"
"Well, I for one think that one important and relatively recent development
"is that many composers, such as myself, have stopped this grandiose view
"of music history (especially in the 20th century) as a series of "develop-
"ments" or "advancements" by way of "experiments" and "research." This
"vocabulary only makes sense if one agrees that there is a single goal
"that all composers can agree on. Alternatively, you can take the approach
"of some composers in the 20th century and simply dismiss anything that
"falls outside of your own myopic view of "tradition."
"
"Schoenberg's writing of his 12-tone method certainly did a lot to shape
"this attitude. His writings, which looked upon this method not just as
"a necessity for his personal artistic expression, but as a HISTORICAL
"necessity. Thus his invention was often talked about as a "discovery"
"as were many of the variations that his followers began to invent:
"combinatorial hexachords, cells, serialism, set theory, blah blah blah.
"
"If it works well for you, go for it. But changes in compositional techniques
"to me should be driven by the necessities of personal expression, and thus a
"historically changing process incidentally, not by design. (Remember the
"debate over the connotations of the word "evolution" to describe change
"in composition over time? Was that in rec.music.classical?)

Hear, hear.  As our turbulent twentieth century draws to a close, so may
this obsession with Neuen ueber Alles.  Over and again we have seen
avant-gardists whose attempts to "Advance Composition" and forcibly create
the Music of the Future only assured that their output quickly became
the music of the past...

"Hey, Milton Babbitt: who cares if you experiment?

[originally "The listener as nonspecialist"? :-)]

--Noam D. Elkies (elkies@zariski.harvard.edu)
  Dept. of Mathematics, Harvard University
From: kkothman@weber.ucsd.edu (Keith Kothman)
Newsgroups: rec.music.compose
Subject: Re: Advances in composition
Date: 15 Dec 1992 21:43:51 GMT
Organization: University of California, San Diego
NNTP-Posting-Host: weber.ucsd.edu

In article <RMC.92Dec15113401@miyazaki.wang.com> rmc@wang.com (rmc) writes:
>
>Finally, you can try to go away from normal music notation entirely or
>nearly so.  The controlled improvisation in Anthony Braxton's
>"Composition 101" and "Composition 109" come to mind.  A completely
>different graphical notation is used by (i think, memory is cloudy
>again) Morton Feldman.  No pieces stand out in my mind as being
>particularly successful, especially compared to the Braxton pieces,
>and my prof thinks Feldman may have moved away from this technique.
>It seems he had really strong feelings for what the notation meant
>that were not readable by the players, who thought that they were
>given more liscense to improvise.

Feldman did move away from graphic and other freely-notated
rhythmic music for the precise reasons you mention.  His late
works (Triadic Memories for Piano, and Coptic Light for orchestra)
are based on his interest in the minute detail of Turkish rugs.
These works use extreme repitition to accentuate minute variations
in rhythmic and pitch organization in a manner that is quite 
different from the "minimalist" works of Glass or Reich.

Keith Kothman
kkothman@ucsd.edu		Dept. of Music, UC San Diego







Newsgroups: rec.music.compose
From: ted@dgbt.doc.ca (Ted Grusec)
Subject: COMMENTS ON FAQ
Organization: The Communications Research Centre
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 17:18:23 GMT


Thanks for the try, jeff and gnat.  But, if I may voice an opinion, I
find a problem with the faq.

I don't want to start a flame war about hardware platforms. 
But the fact is that, in Nth.America, IBM
(mostly clones) is the major hardware by way of sheer numbers.  Your
FAQ almost entirely avoids this platform, and this is a very serious
flaw.  And this platform has a very wide range of products (hardware
and software) available for it, at all levels, from the tinkerer to
the professional.  Very few products don't eventually migrate from
other platforms to IBM (Intel may be a more accurate name). A useful
FAQ should address ALL platforms that are in active use.  MAC fans
might object too to the skimpy treatment given that hardware too.i

Can you find a North American contributor to address this? (No thanks,
not me!)
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Ted Grusec - Communications Research Centre, Ottawa, Ont., Canada
From: maverick@mahogany.CS.Berkeley.EDU (Vance Maverick)
Newsgroups: rec.music.compose
Subject: Re: Regarding the Questionable use of the Word -> Advance
Date: 20 Dec 92 19:25:13 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: mahogany.cs.berkeley.edu

In article <m6oZVB3w165w@dorsai.com>, idealord@dorsai.com (Jeff Harrington) writes:
|> I would just like to briefly mention my interpretation of the discussion 
|> of "Advances in Music Composition" as being biased towards a teleological 
|> interpretation of music history.  Where are we going, people?  
|>  
|> I still feel that the late string quartets of Beethoven are
|> infinitely more "advanced" regarding real human musical expression than
|> anything I've heard from this century.  (Bach's Art of Fugue, too).  I'm 
|> talking about music which is coherent, complete in its intentions and 
|> realizations and infinite in its potential for emotional affect.  

Um, sounds like you're burdened with a teleology too --
rather a New-Critical one at that.  My interpretation of your
dictum here is that these pieces scratch your itches better
than any you've heard from this century.  Fine.  But to
project this onto the pieces is a very similar move to the
one you deplore in the academic environment -- it entails
that all music is trying to do the same thing.  For example,
you present "coherence" as an unproblematic virtue -- but
what does it mean?  what kind is desirable?  and who decides
when it's present?

Not that I wish to defend Boulez in particular -- Eclat is
nice, Pli Selon Pli often pretty, but he wouldn't be the
composer I chose to empedestal.  I think there's a middle way
between the use of "advancedness" to leverage new academic
music into unearned significance, and the use of vague
humanist platitudes to uphold the established classics.

	Vance
Newsgroups: rec.music.compose
From: lm011@aix370.rrz.Uni-Koeln.DE (Alexander Tuchacek)
Subject: VRsounds harbour hamburg freightship
Keywords: paticipation 
Reply-To: lm011@aix370.rrz.Uni-Koeln.DE (Alexander Tuchacek)
Organization: Regional Computing Center, University of Cologne, F. R. Germany
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 92 15:50:40 GMT



Call for international participation in new art/science project.
KNOWBOTIC RESEARCH
Simulation Room -Mosaic of Mobile Sound Data
We are a group of artists and scientists at the Academy of Media
Arts Cologne,  and will be showing a VR installation in February at
the MEDIALE93 - Festival for Media Arts and Media Future - in
Hamburg, Germany. The installation, housed in the freight ship Cap
San Diego in Hamburg - harbour, has three main areas.
Section one is a sophisticated, walk - in data - base  utilising a
collection of sound samples from around the world, which will be
used to produce a virtual 'sound room'.  The sound data will
correspond to the second section,  a physical room, where visitors
will be able to navigate through the space with the aid of a mobile
ultrasonic sensor and an artificial eye display and activate the data 
to a realtime-concert.
The action of the visitors, within  this 'virtual organism,' will be
displayedon a video screen shown in a control room area (the third
area).
We welcome your participation for the international sound - data -
base: To participate in this international project we need from you a
6 second long sound sample, a cultural statement, reflecting
your personal attitude towards the "world". Please send this via
email or ftp. (aiff, wave, next formats)
All participants and institutions will be credited in a publicly
displayed database during the exhibition.
For more information by email from: kr+cf@khm.uni-koeln.de
Thank you for your support - KNOWBOTIC RESEARCH

Newsgroups: rec.music.compose
From: ted@dgbt.doc.ca (Ted Grusec)
Subject: Re: COMMENTS ON FAQ
Organization: The Communications Research Centre
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 20:41:19 GMT

In article <1992Dec14.193119.29784@zip.eecs.umich.edu> fields@zip.eecs.umich.edu (Matthew Fields) writes:
>In article <1992Dec14.171823.19291@dgbt.doc.ca> ted@dgbt.doc.ca (Ted Grusec) writes:
>>
>>Thanks for the try, jeff and gnat.  But, if I may voice an opinion, I
>>find a problem with the faq.
>>
>>I don't want to start a flame war about hardware platforms. 
>>But the fact is that, in Nth.America, IBM
>>(mostly clones) is the major hardware by way of sheer numbers.  Your
>
>Ok, I'll comment on that.  The following is mostly my personal opinions.
>
>1) At this date IBM is indeed the major hardware in the business world.
>But people trying to get something serious done in DTP tend to prefer
>machines for which a graphic interface is a given, not an extra like

>
>2) There's a serious base productivity question involved.  I have no
>problem assigning a bunch of techheads to learn DOS and Windows.  But
>
>3) The main reason so many IBMs are in the business world is momentum:
>a niche for automation opened around 1959, and IBM was there.  The

The simple point I was trying to make is that there are lots of
people, quite serious musicians, who are using Intel machines, and
whether anyone likes it or not, their needs should be met in an FAQ.
I was not at all defending Intel, only the genuine needs of people
accessing information.  This newsgroup is about music, not about
platforms, and should be addressed to EVERYONE, regardless of what
machines they use.
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Ted Grusec - Communications Research Centre, Ottawa, Ont., Canada
Newsgroups: rec.music.compose
From: josh@Tekelec.gecko.uucp (Josh Barinstein)
Subject: Phil Collins and lyrics
Originator: josh@reliant
Organization: Tekelec Inc
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 21:29:21 GMT


Steve writes:

> This reminds me of an interview I saw with Phil Collins as part of
> a documentary (sort of) on the latest Genesis album.  This method
> of putting together phrases that fit music pretty much after the
> music is already going seemed to be their preferred method.  One
> song has the phrase "you're no son of mine."  They basically shut
> Phil into a booth while the music was playing and he tried different
> phrases.  This one fit and basically became the theme for a song
> on child abuse.  But, the music was already pretty much there before
> they worked much on the lyrics.


I saw this interview as well.  If I remember correctly, the band began
jamming -- Mike Rutherford (the guitar player?) had some chords he liked
and began playing them.  Phil Collins didn't have any words and so he
began mumbling along, making sounds that went well with the music.  Soon
he realized that he was really saying something and built the entire ly-
rics around that ("you're no son of mine", as Steve mentioned).

He explained that a lot of the time he'll do just that:  let himself go
and let the words come to him.  By flowing along with the music, non-
sensical sounds soon become the basis for words.

Interesting...  And I can attest to this approach since it has worked for
me many times in the past.

Josh

-----
Josh Barinstein - josh@Tekelec.com

Xref: sparky rec.music.compose:495 rec.music.classical:18437
From: elkies@ramanujan.harvard.edu (Noam Elkies)
Newsgroups: rec.music.compose,rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: **QUICK SINEAD SURVEY PLEASE ANSWER**
Summary: wrong newsgroups!
Date: 12 Dec 92 23:34:49 GMT
Organization: Harvard Math Department

In article <1992Dec11.171202.25486@iitmax.iit.edu>
boarjas@elof.iit.edu (Jason Boardman) writes:
>
>*****  SIMPLE SURVEY -- PLEASE READ *****
>
>I have seen much talk about Sinead on the net lately, 

Not on rec.music.classical or rec.music.compose, surely.
What is this doing here?

>Do you still support (or have a general good opinion of) Sinead O'Connor?
        ^^^^^
So this survey is only for those who have in the past "supported"
or "had a general good opinion" of S.O'Connor?...

--Noam D. Elkies (elkies@zariski.harvard.edu)
  Dept. of Mathematics, Harvard University
Newsgroups: rec.music.compose
From: josh@Tekelec.gecko.uucp (Josh Barinstein)
Subject: Advances in composition
Originator: josh@reliant
Organization: Tekelec Inc
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 21:21:36 GMT


David V. Feldman writes:

> In the opinions of readers of this group, what pieces of music
> composed recently represent the most important theoretical 
> developments in compositional technique.
> By recently I mean, so within the last five or ten years.
> I am not here concerned in anyway with whether the music is good or
> bad, beautiful or ugly, but simply with innovations in melody, harmony,
> rhythm, timbre, form, tuning, theatre, spacial location, integration
> of new technology, etc. whose significance is potentially wider than
> the individual piece where they are instantiated.  I am especially
> interested to hear about the work of younger or lesser known composers
> whose work I am unlikely to know from recordings or broadcast.
 

I found this particular question quite interesting.  The problem is
that those who have replied have not really answered David's question.
I agree that MIDI, expert systems, and computer-assisted composition
software have been important advances in music.  However, quoting from
David's message:  "what pieces of music composed recently..." (no
point in repeating the whole thing).

Unfortunately I am not able to give an answer to this.  Can anyone
else out there?  What actual pieces have represented such development?

Josh

-----
Josh Barinstein - josh@Tekelec.com

Newsgroups: rec.music.compose
From: mfkeady@athena.mit.edu (Margaret K. Kalb)
Subject: Music software
Keywords: PC
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 19:08:42 GMT

Hi.

A quick question-- in the next couple of months I'm going to be buying software
for my 486 to notate my music.  I will be checking out everything I can get my
hands on, but if anyone has any brilliant insights into what I should look at and
what I should avoid like the plague, please drop me a line:
mfkeady@athena.mit.edu.  I am already pretty familiar with the capabilities (and
limitations) of Finale on the Mac, (is it available for the PC?) but if anybody
wants to flame about Finale, that'd be okay too....  :-) 

Thanks muchly,

Margaret Kalb
From: rpeck@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (robert william peck)
Subject: Re: Advances in composition
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 02:13:13 GMT

In article <1gm36bINNeul@calvin.usc.edu> alves@calvin.usc.edu (William Alves) writes:
>
>Hey, Milton Babbitt: who cares if you experiment?
>

I, for one, do.
Newsgroups: rec.music.compose
From: idealord@dorsai.com (Jeff Harrington)
Subject: Re: How does one compose?
Organization: The Dorsai Embassy, New York's Computer Consulate. +1.718.729.5018
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 14:08:23 GMT

bil@cmn14.Stanford.EDU (Bill Schottstaedt) writes:

> My Landlady: Rent's due.
> Me: But Mrs Golgotha, I'm a budding Artist and all my friends on
>     rec.music.compose say "don't worry: the money will come."
> My Landlady: Pay me or I throw you out.
> Me (as I land in the street): Oh joy!  A new Experience!  Now my
>     music will be better than ever!

 
Mr.Schottstaedt misinterprets my remark in a way remarkably consistent 
with the usual justification for not taking risks in art.  "If I do that
my mentor will freak out and not give my tenure and I'll end up on the 
street.  If I do this then my friends will think I'm nuts and never come 
to my concerts."  It is fear which keeps our arts so pale today; so 
shallow and so lacking in the complete experience of a human being not 
trying to pay bills but trying to be _TRUE_.  Mr. Schottstaedt mocking 
tone rings proudly with the insularity inherent in our university system 
of patronage.  I don't depend on universities for a living so I can 
bluntly say that it is disturbing to see it here; disturbing in its proud 
bourgeois tone.  
 
THE RENT.  The reason my music sucks.  
THE RENT.  The reason I never did anything.  
THE RENT.  The reason I never wrote an opera.
THE RENT.  The reason I put up with teaching Intro to Music Theory for
20 years. 
THE RENT.  The reason our whole stinking culture sucks and is controlled
by mutant academic whores who do nothing but pay their stinking rent.
 
your rent.  I've been homeless.  It's no cup of tea but as long as you 
can keep from getting raped you'll live.  Beg enough money for a bus 
ticket and move in with your high school friend until you can get a job 
again.  But don't ever ever ever settle for kissing the butts of these 
egomanical rent-paying academic control freaks who have sucked our 
culture dry.  It's their fault the public is not interested in new music. 
 They were too damn busy "advancing our musical culture" to pay attention 
to the listener.  Now we've got real problems.  No one goes to new music 
concerts, no one but their fellow mutant ninja tenureds, unless its one 
of those godawful pop/rock/minimalist concerts.  
 
So live.  CARPE F**KIN' DEUM!  I can't f**kin' believe someone who calls 
himself an artist is worried about the rent.  
 

Jeff Harrington      
IdEAL ORDER               
idealord@dorsai.com
Newsgroups: rec.music.compose
From: idealord@dorsai.com (Jeff Harrington)
Subject: Regarding the Questionable use of the Word -> Advance
Organization: The Dorsai Embassy, New York's Computer Consulate. +1.718.729.5018
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 17:59:21 GMT

I would just like to briefly mention my interpretation of the discussion 
of "Advances in Music Composition" as being biased towards a teleological 
interpretation of music history.  Where are we going, people?  
 
I still feel that the late string quartets of Beethoven are
infinitely more "advanced" regarding real human musical expression than
anything I've heard from this century.  (Bach's Art of Fugue, too).  I'm 
talking about music which is coherent, complete in its intentions and 
realizations and infinite in its potential for emotional affect.  
 
Does anybody really believe that Boulez's Repons is advanced?  Sure, it's 
obviously new and complex.  I think that's what many people mean when 
they use the word "advance" in an artistic context -> new, different, and 
of course fashionably complex.  I have serious doubts that anyone in 50 
years is going to spend the 3 years necessary to learn a Ferneyhough 
piece.  This is not a bias against complexity, merely a practical 
comment.  Many composers since the  60's have decided not to participate
in the struggle inherent in accomodating technical problems consequent in
a continuing exploration of rhythmic complexity.  Funny, now that so many
people have MIDI sequencers and could conceivably program those poly-poly 
rhythms, no one is interested...
 
The university system of artistic patronage forces composers to consider 
themselves as producers of advancement.  I believe this is 
philosophically incompatible with artistry and art's own demand that we 
realize personal truth.
 
What do you think?  
 

Jeff Harrington      
IdEAL ORDER               
idealord@dorsai.com
Newsgroups: rec.music.compose
From: jpanusa@sol.UVic.CA (John Panusa)
Subject: MIDI Interface for PC sound board?
Originator: jpanusa@sol.UVic.CA
Organization: University of Victoria, Victoria, B.C. CANADA
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 18:34:23 GMT

I've just purchased a Sound Commander FX for a 386sx, and although
it said that no MIDI adapter was required, it only has a 15pin
rectangular joystick port!  So, does anyone know how I can get 
a 5pin DIN Midi cable to a 15pin joystick port?  I know I'll
need some sort of adapter, but NOBODY around here knows anything!
If anyone knows where such an adapter can be purchased, or how
I can construct one myself, please let me know!


Thanks,

Gianpaolo (John) Panusa

Newsgroups: rec.music.compose
From: 880840m@axe.acadiau.ca (MICHAEL ALEXANDER MCKAY)
Subject: Re: How does one compose?
Organization: Acadia University
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 02:18:19 GMT

In article <1992Dec17.160406.10226@zip.eecs.umich.edu> fields@zip.eecs.umich.edu (Matthew Fields) writes:
>>	So, get started having wild experiences with musician physics majors.
>
>I'm sure these are not the only folks who could show you a wild time.

 And having lived with a musician physics major for a summer, I can assure 
you that these people do not necessarily promote "wild experiences".
From: basinski@biosci.arizona.edu (Mark Basinski)
Newsgroups: rec.music.compose
Subject: Re: uh-oh
Date: 14 Dec 92 19:16:09 GMT
Followup-To: rec.music.compose
Organization: Univ. of Arizona

In article <1992Dec14.174048.7320@eagle.lerc.nasa.gov>,
bgood@sundagger.lerc.nasa.gov wrote:
> I guess senility is setting in--I haven't been able to come up with a good
> pun on the name Buxtehude, so I'll quit while I'm ahead...
> 
> 
   OK, you asked for it:

		In these days of reduced funding for the arts, there are still some
organizations trying to find groups of deserving artists to give 
some Buxtehude thunk it!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Basinski      Internet: basinski@biosci.arizona.edu
Newsgroups: rec.music.compose
From: fields@zip.eecs.umich.edu (Matthew Fields)
Subject: Re: COMMENTS ON FAQ
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 21:17:58 GMT



Hmmm.  I say put your fingers where your keyboard is, and write the parts
of the FAQ you'd like to see.
Newsgroups: rec.music.compose
From: gds@oahu.cs.ucla.edu (Greg Skinner)
Subject: Re: How does one compose?
Originator: gds@oahu.cs.ucla.edu
Reply-To: gds@cs.ucla.edu (Greg Skinner)
Organization: in your face!
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 92 16:45:34 GMT

In article <o591VB1w165w@dorsai.com> idealord@dorsai.com (Jeff Harrington) writes:
>your rent.  I've been homeless.  It's no cup of tea but as long as you 
>can keep from getting raped you'll live.

Yet you do acknowledge that you do risk your life, being homeless.
This seems to be a good reason to find a way to pay your rent.

>But don't ever ever ever settle for kissing the butts of these 
>egomanical rent-paying academic control freaks who have sucked our 
>culture dry.  It's their fault the public is not interested in new
>music. [...]
>So live.  CARPE F**KIN' DEUM!  I can't f**kin' believe someone who calls 
>himself an artist is worried about the rent.  

Being an artist and worrying about the rent do not have to be mutually
exclusive.  If you find yourself in a position where you don't have
enough money to eat, keep clothes on your back, or keep a roof over
your head, that doesn't mean you have to give up art altogether.  Find
a job that will allow you to get the basic necessities and save a
little.  Use the rest of your time to work on your art.  When you've
saved enough, you can go back to spending full-time on your art, and
hopefully by that time, you'll have reached the point where you can
make as much money as you need doing what you love.

--gregbo