From: jawad@ecst.csuchico.edu (Jawad Ali)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.bangladesh,soc.culture.afghanistan,soc.culture.turkish,soc.culture.iranian,soc.culture.asean,soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: Wakeup Muslims + Uncle Sam
Date: 12 Dec 92 10:13:36 GMT
Organization: California State University, Chico
NNTP-Posting-Host: cscihp.ecst.csuchico.edu








Branch off to "U.S. and oppression" from the "Wakeup Muslims" discussion
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In article <bazyar.724088399@teal> bazyar@teal.csn.org (Jawaid Bazyar) writes:
>>>  By their own people.  Presumably the Imperialistic United States
>>>are starving these people?  Ah yes, the plot unfolds. [...]

[But after the kneejerk reaction he is nice enough to admit]

>  Sorry, I got used to those morons who found that the US was responsible
>in some way or other for every single evil and inconvenience in the world.
>:-)

There is nothing to be gained by a blanket condemnation of the U.S, or
from a conspiracy theory.  But even then the "morons" that you mention
above are far more preferable to the "morons" who blindly acquit the
U.S. of any and all oppression, aggression, and terrorism IN SPITE of
any evidence to the contrary.  Read on.

>> There are many (Muslims and otherwise) who
>>face a great deal of oppression in this country, especially in L.A.
>
>    Bad example. Los Angeles is the sewer of the Western Hemisphere,
>in general.

That is exactly why I picked L.A. as an example of oppression in the
U.S. (There is starvation in the Muslim lands, and that is why I picked
Somalia and not Brunei as an example).  

The fact that these "sewers" exist, and that people live their entire
lives in them, and chlidren grow up not knowing anything but the "sewer"
-- it is all oppression.  The fact that a staggering majority of black
people are concentrated in these "sewers" is oppression.  You are right
that the resons for this are varied and complex, but nothing is as 
simplistic as a blanket denial of this oppression.


>And, let's get terms straight.  'Oppression' is
>the systematic denial of rights to one group by another group.

I can suggest definitions of the word that are far more meaningful
than yours.  [Webster's: "Oppressive.  Burdensome; unjustly severe;
tyrannical"].  Even a simple "injustice" would work better than 
your definition that relies on the vague and undefinied notion of rights.

>That simply cannot be shown to occur in the United States at all.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Oh yes it can! 
This is the curx of our disagreement here.  I do not mean to flame
you personaly, but I consider the above to be a patently bogus, obnoxious
and yes, indecent statement.  It is only a sign of ignorance, naivete,
and abject callousness towards the suffering of others.  The U.S. has
been the site of, and the perpetrator of, some of the greatest and most
despicable oppression in the history of mankind.

This is not an emotional overstatement.  It is only a dispassionate
conclusion from a preponderance of evidence.  I do not wish to indulge
in a debate of what was the single greatest attrocity in history, but
some of what has transpired in the name of this country can compete
with the worst of what this world has to offer.

Tens of millions of black people were killed or maimed in the most
gruesome of manners, in passage to, and during slavery.  Entire
nations of native people were decimated by the millions.  It only
seems like inflamatory language, but it is not -- these are all facts
that are all very well documented in America's own history.  Both these
races continue to feel the impact of that oppression that has never
been corrected.  The systematic denial of the rights of these people,
and that of many others, is also very well documented in American
scholarship, journalism, and literature.

U.S's relationship with its neighbours to the south is an endless
story of oppression.  I can point you to dozens of books that have
carefuly catalogued the oppression of the peoples of the Carribean,
South and Centeral America at the hands of the U.S.  The evidence
is overwhelming and incontrovertable, and for the most part relies
on evidence from within the U.S. (including the government).  This
is not a conspiracy theory.  Most of this evidence is accepted in
scholarly circles, and is open only to dogmatic attack.  It is only
swept aside for the purposes on national myth making.

Your statement above is true only in the vague and meaningless
sense that NO oppression has ever taken place on this planet.  If you
can dismiss the evidence of oppression in and by the U.S., then
you can use the same reasoning to dismiss evidence of oppression
agaist the Afghans by the Soviets; against the Jews by the Nazis;
by the Saudis against their women and [insert your favorite oppressive
relationship here].  What sort of evidence would you accept any way?


In fact, I suspect that the above is a statement of faith for you.
By this I mean that you will cling to this obnoxious statement,
REGARDLESS of any evidence that one might present to the contarary
-- regardless of how scholarly, well documented, well supported,
and widely accepted the evidence is.  Your position seems to be
that no evidence should even be allowed against the U.S.  For the
moment you open the possibility of evidence, the floodgates will
open with evidence that this society itself has long accepted.
(except, perhaps, in the lunatic fringes like David Duke and his
followers, but even they have their tales of oppression).

Lest you think that mine is a rhetorical exercise in theory, I will
give you one example (out of hundreds that I can think of) each of
oppression by the U.S. within and without its borders.

- In the U.S. a black man is far more likely to be convicted of
the same crime as a white person and recieve a harsher sentence.
This has been well documented and has been going on for a long time.
It is a systematic denial by one group's rights (of a fair trial) by
another, and by your own terms, oppression.

- A few years ago the World Court (in spite of all the pressure)
found the U.S. guilty of systematically mining the harbors of Nicaragua.
Once again, using your definition, it is a clear example of the U.S.
denying the rights (of economy, trade, and life) of another group.

In case you are foolish enough to suggest that I made up the above,
I will gladly furnish the scholarly refrences.  Unless you happen
to believe that there is a gigantic conspiracy by the scholars, journalists,
courts, literature, and common people of the world to unjustly
implicate the U.S. in trumped-up charges.

Intellectual honesty would require that you present your own line of
reasoning and evidence to show that the above is wrong.
Or admit that you were wrong.  I hope that
you will not hide behind the "subtleties of language" or try to justify
this oppression.  Every oppressor can give reasons for why he 
oppresses.  Such is the nature of oppression.

>>We are required to raise our voices against that oppression,
>>regardless of how sweet our own situation may be.
>
>  Indeed; but be careful in defining oppression.

I hope that it is clear to you by now that no matter how one defines
oppression, it exists in the U.S., and is commited by the U.S. on 
the nations of this world.  I say this not as a blanket condemnation
of the entire nation, nor do I attempt to blame the U.S. for what
it has not done.  

This is also not an attempt to gloss over the oppression commited
by Muslim nations.  After all, we chose to picket the Saudi counsolate,
and not the U.S. Federal Building a few blocks down the road.

We should do whatever we can to struggle against oppression, no matter
where it occurs and who commits it.  Since we live in this country,
it is our duty,( and that of patriotic Americans), to be especialy
sensitive to oppression committed in and by the U.S.

I have exams, so I can no longer participate in this discussion, but
I hope someone else who shares my opinions will pick up on this 
discussion.

With peace,

j n a