HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jesup@cbmvax.commodore.com (Randell Jesup)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: SCA technique, the wraparound
Date: 12 Jan 93 01:19:20 GMT
Reply-To: jesup@cbmvax.commodore.com (Randell Jesup)
Organization: Commodore, West Chester, PA

keradwc@rahul.net (Kevin Davis Connery) writes:
>One of the classed taught at a Collegium Occidentalis did just that. Turns out
>that the data doesn't support much of what we do: The number 1 cause of death
>(identifiable by skeletal remains) was head injuries, with the impact angle 
>indicating it was a shot from behind and above (i.e., a vertical strike 
>to the top/rear of the head). Very difficult to do, if not impossible, 
>from in front of the 'victim'.

	On the contrary, the vertical wrap to the head was one of my favorite
strokes.  Once I won a bout in the first pass with what I had meant to be
a feeling-out vertical wrap to the head.  Went right over the shield, nice
strong hit dead center rear of helmet, vertical.  The nice thing about them is
that it makes the opponent take over-strong blocks to the head, blinding them
for longer (and leaving the thigh open).  Kind of like take some fast cuts to
the head in sabre, to make the person know he has to take a good fast parry
there, so you can do combinations.  You have to make them _believe_ the attack.

	It's also possible that those people had taken other injuries, and
have fallen, and the cuts to the head were coup-de-grace's on a prone body.
Unlikely, though.  Or they were caught from behind when running.  Also 
unlikely, I think.  Or were caught from behind when they turned to run.  More
likely.

-- 
GNU Emacs is a LISP operating system disguised as a word processor.
 - Doug Mohney, in comp.arch

Randell Jesup, Jack-of-quite-a-few-trades, Commodore Engineering.
jesup@cbmvax.commodore.com  BIX: rjesup  
Disclaimer: Nothing I say is anything other than my personal opinion.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: norvell@csri.toronto.edu (Theo Norvell)
Subject: Re: Epee
Organization: CSRI, University of Toronto
Date: 9 Jan 93 21:28:58 GMT

In article <8JAN199316103125@sleepy.bms.com> kormann@sleepy.bms.com (JOSEPH KORMANN) writes:
>Now for the serious question: What is the recommended spot to watch when 
>fencing 

Watch everything at once!

Theo
From: OGI9@MUSICT.MCGILL.CA (OGI9000)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: SCA technique, the wraparoundex
Date: 10 Jan 93 22:04:23 GMT
Organization: McGill University

>I think that there are some saber techniques that use the false edge. Prehaps
>if you could trace their history (if they exist) you could create some possible
>arrument for the existance of the wrap in "real" world.
>.
>.
  I occasionally use a move which is somewhat similar to that.  I
start in the traditional sixte en gaurde position, then drop my
blade diagonally, so that it is almost in seconde but closer to
the body.  I then pick up their blade in an an upward swing and
draw the back of my blade across the opponent.  The blade follows
an almost circular path in this move, which I believe is called a
'bandelero'.  It has to be performed very quickly, and often works
well against foil fencers 'trying' sabre.  Although I usually hit
the shoulder, a slight modification would put the blade on the back
of your opponents head.

I hope this helps.

Dave 'Toast' Sanguinetti
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: guy@slustl.slu.edu (Guy Smith)
Subject: Re: Epee
Organization: Saint Louis University  Saint Louis, MO
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 18:44:04 GMT

In article <1993Jan11.152037.18168@news.cs.brandeis.edu> beginnings@binah.cc.brandeis.edu writes:
>a lot of visual information to keep track off.  One area of focus might be better than another with certain fencers.

Any time I can get someone fixated on, e.g., my point, they're usually dead
meat. You've got to be aware of everything.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr)
Subject: SCA technique, the wraparound
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 93 16:46:05 GMT
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta

I am looking for evidence of the use of 'wraparound' technique
in medieval broadsword combat.

For those unfamiliar withthe term, a wraparound is a blow which
strikes with the back edge of a double edged weapon. Often the
blow development is such that the weapon "wraps" around the
oppponent and strikes him in the back of the head, leg or
body.

Carolus Malvoix/Charles Parr
-- 
Within the span of the last few weeks I have heard elements of
separate threads which, in that they have been conjoined in time,
struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing
gourd. --Unknown net.person
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 17:01:22 EST
From: Therion <HZS@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: SCA technique, the wraparound

In article <93Jan06.164605.20771@acs.ucalgary.ca>, parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles
Parr) asks:

>I am looking for evidence of the use of 'wraparound' technique
>in medieval broadsword combat.

Oh c'mon, Carolus, you wouldn't want us to have to defend some SCA techniques
as medieval, would you? :)

In all seriousness, I've never noticed much in the way of period illustrations
that would indicate that wrap shots are a medieval technique. One can state
conjectures either that: 1)  it's really hard to draw someone throwing a wrap
(leading to artists not doing so - besides, the  whole "ring mail" conjecture
(see Ffolkes) demonstrates that medievel artists didn't necessarily know squat
about armor or weapons or techniques); or that: 2) the wrap shot is a SCA-only
convention that arose because of our need for safety standards (i.e. why take
wrap shots when you can hit 'em in the hands or shins?)

My guess is that the answer to this question might best be found in
archaeological studies such as Thordemann's excavations at Wisby. We should be
able to determine the angle of the blow from examining skeletal damage combined
with some of the basic kinesiology of swinging a sword.

                                                         Therion
From: OGI9@MUSICT.MCGILL.CA (OGI9000)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: RE: Epee
Date: 10 Jan 93 22:27:29 GMT
Organization: McGill University

> My instructor recommends looking just behind the elbow-ar             ea.
>This way (he says) you'll be able to keep an eye on their elbow for attacks
>and their knees for movement. I personally feel that watching the shoulder
>is better since I can watch their arms for attacks and their masks for hints
>of movement.
>Comment?
>
NO!  In my experience, (and the recomendations of some very
experienced fencers), if you look directly at any part of the
body and expect to react to it in time you will be too late.
Your periferal vision has a much faster reaction time than does
your direct, so that although you don't "see" the attack coming,
you can sense it and react much more quickly.  I would recommend
that you look generally at your opponents mask, just be careful
not to react to head fakes.  This is what I do in sabre, and when
I'm in peak training I can usually pick off most direct and single
feint attacks without thinking about them.  (My problem is getting
the repost in the right time)

Dave 'Toast' Sanguinetti
From: kormann@obiwan.bms.com (JOSEPH KORMANN)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: College Level Fencing
Date: 5 Jan 93 20:49:00 GMT
Organization: Bristol Myers Squibb Pharmaceutical Research Institute
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1

Hi,
	My college has been trying to get a low-key fencing club going for
about 3 years now. We have some meets going on with 1 other college (we're
in the Central New Jersey area) and are looking to expand out to other colleges
and organizations.
	If you know of any, please drop me a line!! We're begging for
competetion. We mainly do foil but we do have some sabre and epee's around.


Thanks in Advance!
Joseph Kormann
(Foil / Sabre)
Trenton, NJ
From: beginnings@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: Epee
Date: 11 Jan 93 15:20:37 GMT
Reply-To: beginnings@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Organization: Brandeis University

The question of what to focus on while fencing is a difficult question.
There is not a perfect spot to fix your gaze on.  I recommend that
you try to become comfortable with moving your gaze around.  There is
a lot of visual information to keep track off.  One area of focus might be better than another with certain fencers.

Terrence Gargiulo
From: mece25r@rosie.uh.edu (Palit, Suman)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: beginner questions
Date: 8 Jan 1993 19:29 CST
Organization: University of Houston
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: rosie.uh.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <1993Jan8.181811.16590@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu>, norvell@csri.toronto.edu (Theo Norvell) writes...
> 
>A fine explanation -- but not of "counter-time".  Counter-time is
>a parry-riposte performed against a stop-hit.  I also apply it to a
>parry-riposte against either a counter-attack or simultaneous attack

I'm trying to visualize what counter-time would look like, so help
me here...

I initiate an attack, drawing a stop-hit reaction from my opponent. 
When his point is in line, I parry-riposte against his stop hit....right!

So how would you parry-riposte during a simultaneous attack? I can 
understand the phrase if it's a parry-riposte against my opponent's 
remise (continuation) after the initial simultaneous attack. 
Does it mean breaking the attack midway upon realizing that the opponent
is counter-attacking, and parry-riposting instead of continuing with
the attack? 

Suman
From: mece25r@rosie.uh.edu (Palit, Suman)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Fencing Book Query
Date: 4 Jan 1993 00:08 CST
Organization: University of Houston
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: rosie.uh.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

Hi, 

Sometime ago, I remember reading an article in the net about
a book titled :

"The development of a coded, symbolic language for the analysis &
teaching of fencing." 1976
			By
		Ronald C. Miller

Does anyone know what this book is all about...sounds weird enough
to be looked into, at least! I'm not sure which publishing house,
though..

Suman Palit


P.S. Does Santa fence...hope so, cause I asked him for a
really good year of fencing  :-)
From: norvell@csri.toronto.edu (Theo Norvell)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: beginner questions
Date: 9 Jan 93 22:32:37 GMT
Organization: CSRI, University of Toronto

In article <8JAN199319290245@rosie.uh.edu> mece25r@rosie.uh.edu (Palit, Suman) writes:
>In article <1993Jan8.181811.16590@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu>, norvell@csri.toronto.edu (I) write...
>> 
>>Counter-time is a parry-riposte performed against a stop-hit.

[Well, that may be a little wrong. According to Alaux (*) counter-time refers
only to the riposte.]
 
>I'm trying to visualize what counter-time would look like, so help
>me here...
>
>I initiate an attack, drawing a stop-hit reaction from my opponent. 
>When his point is in line, I parry-riposte against his stop hit....right!

Right.  For example by beating and not attacking immediately, doing the
step part of a step-lunge with a bent arm, doing a prise-de-fer in
such a way that your opponent deceives it, attacking with exposed arm
(epee and sabre),... .  These mistakes can be deliberate or not.
 
>>I also apply it to a parry-riposte against either a counter-attack or
>>simultaneous attack

>So how would you parry-riposte during a simultaneous attack?  [...]
>Does it mean breaking the attack midway upon realizing that the opponent
>is counter-attacking, and parry-riposting instead of continuing with
>the attack? 

Right again.

In sabre it is common for both fencers to attack simultaneously from the
word `Allez' (and other times) with say a step-fleche to the head. Make
the step extending to attack, your opponent is doing the same.  Just as
you get close enough she won't have time to change the line, withdraw your
arm to a parry 4 (or 5, if you're fast -- recall your opponent's blade
is comming at you almost double speed) and riposte as you pass.  If your
opponent has priority she'll be a ripe sucker for this and you have less
to lose.  Note that if she has priority, her simultaneous attack is, in
spirit, a stop cut in good time, hence you are doing a classical counter time.

Of course the danger is that your parry is too early, so she can
deceive it (finta in tempo -- I love the sound of that), or too late, so
you end up with egg on your face.  Note this probably works better with steam
where the judges will see a big parry, than electric where wraparound may
get you.

Doing this in foil is complicated by the fact that the riposte probably has
to be done from close quarters and because it's harder to premeditate
a simultaneous.

Theo

(*) Michel Alaux, Modern Fencing, Scribner's, New York, 1975.
From: mark@uab21.larc.nasa.gov (Mark Flanagan)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: what now?
Date: 6 Jan 1993 19:27:16 GMT
Organization: NASA Langley Research Center
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: uab21.larc.nasa.gov


I originally learned tournament fencing about 10 years ago.  I moved away
from the school after about a year, and didn't pick up a blade for 7 years.
(Not sure where to go).  I went to college in upstate NY, and discovered 
SCA fencing.  I loved it, and want to continue, but... I've graduated, and
am back where I have no idea where to fence.  The SCA doesn't fence here
(Hampton Roads, VA), and I need ideas of where to look for fencers.  I
certainly don't want to wait another 7 years.  Thanks for your help.

Mark Flanagan

-- 
mark@uab15.larc.nasa.gov  Unsteady Aerodynamics Branch LaRC  <disclaimer>
From: zebee@wattle.itd.adelaide.edu.au (Zebee Johnstone)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: SCA technique, the wraparound
Date: 13 Jan 93 02:42:25 GMT
Organization: The University of Adelaide
NNTP-Posting-Host: wattle.itd.adelaide.edu.au

parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr) writes:

>In article <C0IqI4.BqF@rahul.net> keradwc@rahul.net (Kevin Davis Connery) writes:
>>(identifiable by skeletal remains) was head injuries, with the impact angle 
>>indicating it was a shot from behind and above (i.e., a vertical strike 
>>to the top/rear of the head). Very difficult to do, if not impossible, 
>>from in front of the 'victim'.

>Hmmm...I was told once by a military historian that, before the
>days of extensive use of firearms, the vast majority of deaths
>in battle happen when troops are routed and trying to flee.

I believe "modern" cavalry sabre technique is to ride *past* the
infantryman, and whack him on the top of the head as you go by.  
It adds the kinetic energy of the horse, plus your swing.

And would also produce the sort of wound described.

I have vague memories of some bodies at Wisby being cut almost in half.
Again, this could easily be from mounted troops using the enormous
kinetic energy of charging horse, plus heavy weapon.

Best place to look for such info would be accounts of Napoleonic
warfare.  May help to distinguish the kinds of wounds inflicted by
cavalry from those inflicted by infantry.

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
     Zebee Johnstone  DoD #605   | You don't own an Italian motorcycle 
     Adelaide City Council       |  - you merely have the privilege 
    zebee@itd.adelaide.edu.au    |    of paying its bills.... 
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: comptec92024@camins.camosun.bc.ca
Subject: Re: Single Stick
Organization: Camosun College
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 01:45:07 GMT

 
> Is there anything in particular that you folks wish to discuss?
> I can talk about DeCadina (freeform sparring with the canes), a little
> about Espada y Daga (sword and dagger fighting), the Sinawali (stick weaving
> patterns), or anything else you can think of.
> 
> Someone also mentioned Aikido in one of the earlier notes, and I have 2 years
> of experience there...if you would like some cross discussion.  It's not
> exactly fencing either, but it is a sword based form.

_------------------------------------------------------------------------------_

Can we start with the basics? What are the first things taught? What is the
theory of attack? Opps! that might not be so basic.

Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: kevin@mpls911.uucp (Kevin Herrboldt)
Subject: Re: Cross training (i.e., foil for an epeeist or vice-versa)
Organization: City of Minneapolis Emergency Communications
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 19:37:35 GMT

t_pascal@oxy.edu. (C. Regis Wilson) writes:
> 
> Hi, I'm an epeeist, but unfortunately, there are very few other epee
> fencers at my school.  Occasionally, I use a foil so I can fence with
> others, but invariably get beaten.  Sometimes, the foilists use an epee.
> 
> My questions are, what should I pay attention to, or try to focus on
> when I fence foil, so I can improve my epee skills?  What should a
> foilist practice when fencing epee?  How much (percentage wise) should

Distance, footwork, second intention and counter-time.

Footwork and a sense of distance ultimately makes or breaks a competitor
as a fencer.  This is a skill that is critical in all three weapons, and
seems to be the most often neglected here in the US.

Second intention attacks are a strong part of epee, and can be very, very
effective in foil as well.  These are also the kind of attacks in foil
that are well-suited to attack with taking, which is what a wise epeeist
learns to do.

Finally, counter-time.  As a foil fencer I've learned that it works
wonders during a bout, since it eliminates all hope of the opponent doing
anything to counter it.  And really good epeeists use it to great effect.

> an epee/foilist spend with the other blade?  Is it a good idea to 
> cross-fence?

As someone else pointed out, a strong foundation in foil will help in
the other weapons.  At my club quite a bit of cross-fencing occurs,
and we have some very strong fencers (the coaches have something to do
with that, too).  Since foil and epee are both point weapons, it shouldn't
hurt your epee game too much to fence foil, but you should still fence
epee as often as possible, since the strategy is different.
The only cross-fencing I've seen cause problems is with sabre, since a lot
of sabre fencing is bent-arm and with absence of point.

> 
> Thanks,
> 
> ---------
> T. Pascal, King of Pascal          | "He travels fastest who travels alone,
> 1600 Campus Road, Box 829          | but not when the frost drops below zero
> Los Angeles, CA 90041              | fifty degrees or more."
>                                    |         -Old eskimo saying

--
-- 
Kevin Herrboldt                                                 kevin@mpls911
Minneapolis Emergency Communications Center         ...!mishima!mpls911!kevin
City Hall Room B-911, Mpls, MN  55415
(612) 348-7216
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr)
Subject: Re: Single Stick
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 93 16:53:54 GMT
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta

In article <1993Jan05.155453.34840@watson.ibm.com> hinesc@fshvmfk1.vnet.ibm.com writes:
>
>>I would not call myself a Kalisador, but last October I was luckly enougth to
>>take a half day workshop put on by Remy Presas. I found it to be fasinating!
>>
>>We worked with two stick, one stick and open hand. The disarms are great and
>>the attackes were fun. I was struck by the simularity between some of the joint
>>locks and those of Aikido and have wondered if there were any connections.
>>
>>I hope that I will have a chance to learn more about it. So if anyone wants to
>>talk about Filipino weapon techniques I would be more then willing to listen
>>and learn.
>>
>>           Mackenzie
>>
>
>I study Remmy Pressas's style at the American headquarters in Highland, NY.
>I've been studying this style for about 7 months now, and it's a blast.  I'd
>be willing to discuss techniques, but I'm not certain that it falls under the
>fencing news group category.  Might it be better off in the martial arts
>news group instead?  Either way it's fine by me...
>
>Chuck Hines

It may have some application to SCA broadsword and fencing
technique, and *I* certainly have no objection to seeing it
here.

Charles
-- 
Within the span of the last few weeks I have heard elements of
separate threads which, in that they have been conjoined in time,
struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing
gourd. --Unknown net.person
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: shick@europa.eng.gtefsd.com (steve hick)
Subject: Re: SCA technique, the wraparoundex
Reply-To: shick@europa.eng.gtefsd.com (steve hick)
Organization: GTE Contel Federal Systems
X-Newsreader: InterCon TCP/Connect II 1.1b31
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 10:36:38 GMT

Greetings,

The SCA 'wrap around' certainly fits within the classifation of blows as 
given in period (prior to 1600) manuals of fence.

Marozzo (1536) characterizes as 'falso filo' as blows originating from the 
agents rhs which use the false edge.  These blows can be 'fendente' 
(falling), montante (rising), or tondo (level) for example.

The famous duel between Jarnac and La Chastaignerai in 1547 in which Jarnac 
was trained by the Italian Cazio involved the infamous "Coup de Jarnac" in 
which both of La Chastaignerai's hams were severed with a draw cut.  The best 
descriptions of this blow are of a feint of a head cut, followed by a 'falso 
filo squalembrato' or '...tondo' to the back of La Chastaignerai's legs, with 
a withdrawl as a draw cut.  Both were wearing 3/4 armor and were fighting 
with sword & buckler. 

Reasons why blows of this sort would not be seen in the exhumation in Wisby 
is that there is lit soft tissue remaining.  A blow which severed the hams 
would not be evident. There is certainly evidence of leg blows, although 
these are typical aimed below the knee, and show up as damage to the bone.  
Also remember that many of the blows were 'finishing blows', delivered AFTER 
the combatant was helpless or deceased.

There was a very interesting post mortem analysis of a English Civil War 
find, which went through the wounds and a possible scenario which included 
each.  I can't remember where this was published now, but the final two 
wounds (a blow to the top of the skull, from ear to ear and a stab to the 
back) were delivered after the victim was mortally wounded.

ST
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: norvell@csri.toronto.edu (Theo Norvell)
Subject: Re: beginner questions
Organization: CSRI, University of Toronto
Date: 8 Jan 93 23:18:11 GMT

In article <1iks62INNrmd@west.West.Sun.COM> markk@cypress.West.Sun.COM writes:

>Counter-time is almost a musical term.  Inexperienced fencers are 
>often rhythmic in their advances, retreats, beats and lunges.  If
>you are fencing against such an opponent, you are likely to find
>that attacks made with a faster rhythm and initiated between your
>opponents down-beats will be very effective, and your opponent will
>have difficulty countering them.

A fine explanation -- but not of "counter-time".  Counter-time is
a parry-riposte performed against a stop-hit.  I also apply it to a
parry-riposte against either a counter-attack or simultaneous attack
(a favourite when my opponent has the coin).  I think the unusual name
comes from the fact that stop-hits are sometimes called "tempos" ("tempi"?),
hence the action taken against it is "contra tempo" (Ital.), "contre-temps"
(Fr.), "counter-time" (Eng.).

What Mark describes is often called "stealing time".

Theo

P.S. for terminology freaks: Deceiving the counter-time is called
"finta in tempo".  I.e. a feint in the tempo.

Disclaimer: My Italian dictionary is at home.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing