From: mcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mark A. Cochran)
Subject: Re: Petey Ny, check reality, try again
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Keywords: risks, surgical procedure
Organization: Um, err... I *know* I saw it here a few days ago...
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 92 04:51:44 GMT

In article <nyikos.725154589@milo.math.scarolina.edu> nyikos@math.scarolina.edu (Peter Nyikos) writes:
>In <1992Dec22.013755.15156@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> mcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mark A. Cochran) writes:

[Hack and slash]

>>Almost correct for a change Petey. I'm not a lawyer, so I don't speak
>>from a legal perspective. I do, however, speak from a medical
>>perspective. And the simple fact of the matter is that any invasive
>>procedure such as this is *always* done only after informed consent is
>>given. If you dispute this, then lets see some documentation. Consent
>>forms are part of the permanent medical record, so anyone who didn't
>>sign one would have an easy time proving it.
>
>You are confusing two different things: consent forms, and informed
>consent.  For the difference, see _Abortion Practice_, by Warren Hern,
>another late-term abortion specialist.  Even HE complains about how
>inadequate some of the forms [he gives samples] are.  And even his
>"model form" is hilariously inadequate in its listing of possible
>complications due to abortion.
>
I don't think Im confusing any such thing Petey. I see the damned
things every day, so how am I supposed to be confused by them?
If Dr. Hern thinks the informed consent he is asking patients to sign
is inadequate, then he is certainly free to change them. The ones we
use, however, describe all complications with a risk factor of .1% or
higher. These same forms are used for all invasive procedures, with
the list of risks coming from a standardised database, plus any
addendums the individual phsycian cares to make.

>Do you want page numbers, extensive quotes?  I'll trade you for
>documentation on the percentage of blastocysts that fail to implant,
>and fail to make it to (1) embryo and (2) fetus.  I don't even expect
>you to explain what you mean by a fetus *becoming* a potential child.
>That'll be the subject of some future trade.
>
Somebody else already posted a source for a rate of implantation
failures of 1/3 to 1/2. Take the trouble to do a little research and
I'm sure you'll be able to find the numbers to make up the remainder
of the failed pregnancies. Assuming your SAT's were as high as you
claimed, surely you are capable of this...

>>See the above Petey. Consent forms are required by law to remain a
>>part of the permanent medical record. It's incredibly easy to show
>>whether informed consent was given or not.
>
>Heh heh heh.  See above distinction.
>
I'm well aware of the differecne Petey. I still have seen no evidence
that any abortions are performed without informed consent being given.
Do you have any to present?

>>So your entire arguement is based on a legal decision the current
>>standing of which you don't know. And nowhere do you provide any
>>evidence that any praqctitioner has ever failed to provide for
>>informed consent prior to an abortion.
>
>Heh heh heh heh.  Are you trying to goad me into making 1000+ line 
>posts no one will touch?  That is what I'd have to do to avoid
>cheap Garvinesque shots like the above.
>
It is not necessary to ramble on incoherantly for 1000+ lines Petey.
Just provide a source that shows what I've asked for. Proof that any
practitioner has failed to meet the requirement for informed consent
before performing an abortion.

>>You're whining about something which *could* happen, if your
>>information is correct. But you fail to show that it ever *has*
>>happened.
>
>>Try again Petey.
>
>See third try, above.  Care to see a fourth?
>
Only if attempt #4 contains some supporting evidence. If it's just
more blathering, don't bother.

--
                  Mark Cochran          merlin@eddie.ee.vt.edu
These are the views of my employer. They also represent the views of
your employer, your government, the Church of your choice, and the
Ghost of Elvis. So there.
Newsgroups: talk.abortion