HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Mary.Curtin@bbs.actrix.gen.nz
Subject: Re: Saints in the Episcopal Church...
Organization: Actrix Information Exchange
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 10:59:55 GMT

In article <9301061610.AA49998@evolving.com> "John W. Woolley" <jww@EVOLVING.COM> writes:

> never called "Saint").  The Episcopal Church even has entries in its
> calendar for people who weren't Catholics of any stripe.  (The Anglican
> Catholic Church does not.)

Really?  You mean that Anglicans done observe, say, the birth of
Christ?  


-- 
\   \/   /  |  
 \/\/\/\/   |  mary.curtin@bbs.actrix.gen.nz

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Date:         Sun, 10 Jan 1993 10:31:00 EST
From:         "Alfred S. Chavez" <achavez@UMSA.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: help for a questioning couple

Angelo writes:
> >1. Prayer. I remember having family rosaries when I was growing up.

>and going against Scriptures (some Scripture passage warns against
>repetitive prayer).

Angelo, you are referring to Mt.6:7, "In praying, do not babble like the
pagans who think that they will be heard because of their many words."  This
from the new Catholic Study Bible.
The footnote to this verse reads:
"The example of what Christ asks contrasts it now not with the prayer of
the hypocrites but with that of *the pagans* [bold].  Their babbling
probably means their reciting a long list of divine names, hoping that one
of them will force a response from the deity."
My own thoughts about this pesky charge about Catholic prayer (esp. the
rosary) is that Catholic prayer, if anything, is briefer than that of
others.  The rosary really has very few words, persistent words--contrast
with another place in the gospels where Jesus enjoins us to pray
persistently like the woman who gets what she wants from the judge by
refusing to quit knocking.  Also, Catholic services are generally much shorter
than Protestants'.

But the point of this passage from Matthew seems to be more against an
idolatrous and superstitious kind of prayer, targeting any and all gods that
might happen to hear.

In re: Cursillo.  I have a couple of very good friends who are in Cursillo
who have tried to get me to go to one.  Both, and others of their group I
know seem to be very committed, level-headed Christians.  Having been
through an "on fire" phase myself, unassisted, except, perhaps, by Renew, I
feel somewhat immune to the one-time excitement problem.  I'm wondering if I
should take them up on it and take the plunge.  Does anyone out there have
any other experiences/opinions about Cursillo?

>These are real-life situations that I would like to see this newsgroup
>discuss more.

As the father of a new freshman at an out-of state school, I agree.

His peace,
Fred Chavez
From: mjsmith@cac.washington.edu (Martha Smith )
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re:      Re: contributions
Date: 4 Jan 1993 17:50:35 GMT
Organization: UW Computing
Distribution: world
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In article <9301022134.AA22106@pegasus.com>,         Len Howard <tas@PEGASUS.COM> writes:
|> Scott, your position is not only common but admirable.  The only
|> problem is that it is unrealistic.  We exist in the world.  Insurance
|> payments must be made on the church, and health insurance for the
|> clergy and staff, utility bills have to be paid, the organist paid,
|> the rector's car paid for, and on and on.  I can assure you from
|> experience on the vestry, that money (or lack of it) is one of the
|> major concerns of the church.  We do not discuss who gives what, in
|> fact the only figure I know is what I give, and what the average gift
|> and the highest gift is.  This comes from the computer printout.  All
|> else is privileged information known only to the stewardship chairman,
|> the treasurer and the rector.  But they MUST be aware of this.  Often
|> the first sign a rector gets that a family is having some sort of
|> trouble is that they stop paying their pledge on Sunday.  Nobody is
|> denied care because they don't pay, either.  But you have to become a
|> bit more realistic in your approach to stewardship.
|> Shalom,                      Len Howard
And I thought I was supposed to "give no thought for the morrow" ... that God would provide etc.  Earthly realism or spiritual realism?
From: fr@compu.com (Fred Rump from home)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: contributions
Date: 6 Jan 93 11:20:55 GMT
Organization: CompuData Inc.

cgoodson@SUN.CC.WESTGA.EDU (Carol Goodson) writes:

>> The church will always assume that we are giving in similar sacrificial
>> levels. While this is not true, they must assume that. So the person donating
>> $1000 may be able to add another 10% and a hundred dollars may be asked for
>> while the person who gives $200 may only be asked for $20. We assume that the
>> sacrifice is the same in either case.
>>
>*****if I were a member of your church, and this happened to me, (i.e., the
>visit to ask for more money) I'd quit instantly.

Well, you must not be Catholic then. This is pretty much SOP for fundraising. 
All the various dioceses along the East coast are in some kind of fund raising 
effort trying to get the coffers a little fuller. It all started with 
Bevilaqua in Pittsburgh. They hired a fund raiser. It worked. He got promoted. 
And now one diocses after another is doing the same 3 to 5 year pledging 
thing.

fred
-- 
W. Fred Rump 	office:	   fred@COMPU.COM     'mans feet have grown/so big 
26 Warren St.   home: fred@icdi10.compu.com  that he/forgets his littleness'
Beverly, NJ. 08010                          		Don Marquis 
609-386-6846    bang:uunet!cdin-1!icdi10!fr   
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Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1993 11:09:54 -0500
From:         URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM
Subject:      Re: contributions

Carol:
>>>*****if I were a member of your church, and this happened to me, (i.e., the
>>>visit to ask for more money) I'd quit instantly.
Fred:
>> Well, you must not be Catholic then.
Carol:
>***sorry to disillusion you, but I am indeed Catholic.  We are of course
>invited and encouraged to pledge a certain amount each year (which I do), but
>no one ever comes around to our homes and tries to talk us into giving more,
>or at least I have not heard of it.  I would find this very offensive.  As
>you can see, I live in the South; perhaps such aggressive customs have not
>yet made it down here...and I hope they don't.

me:
Carol, you disillusioned me when you said you'd quit being Catholic if they
asked you for more money instead of simply saying "no":-)

But speaking of pledge cards, I am reminded of a ride home from Church last
year when my wife suddenly shouted out "JOSEPH!! (knew I was in trouble), you
forgot the pledge card again." Seems the parish had published a list of
the parishioners who had submitted their cards in the first two weeks of the
drive. Talk about peer pressure, but I suppose it would have been worse if
they had included in the church bulletin a list of those had not yet submitted
theirs', then again, that list would have been five times longer:-)

So my question to you, Carol, is would you quit your church if they included
in their weekly bulletin a list of those who pledged to give 10% more in the
next year, regardless if your name were on it or not? -J.J.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: news@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Subject: Re: Are all saintly pronouncements right ?
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 03:03:00 GMT

This article was probably generated by a buggy news reader.
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Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1993 10:12:24 PST
From:         "John R. Covert 06-Jan-1993 1311" <covert@COVERT.ENET.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: Church rules

>I guess I not only don't understand the process, I don't understand the
>end result and how it is different in an Anglican vs. Catholic communion.

Well, at least according to the ARCIC (Anglican-Roman Catholic Interfaith
Commission) documents on the Eucharist, there is no difference.

/john
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Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1993 10:50:57 -0500
From:         mayo@CS.UTK.EDU
Subject:      Re: Church rules

>>Actually, you can receive [communion] twice inthe same day now.
>
>I guess this is good to hear, but, does this mean "unlimited" or have they
>now set the limit at two? Also, what does "same day" mean? (Calender,
>sun-up, sun-down, earth?)

The Church allows the faithful to receive Communion twice in one calendar
day, but the second time must be at a Mass.  The first can be at a Mass or
a Communion service.

Jane Wallace Mayo       | Jesus, Redeemer, have mercy on me
mayo@cs.utk.edu         |    and set me free.
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Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1993 11:08:14 -0500
From:         "What, me worry?" <ACSWILEY@EKU.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Lies about the Consecration

 Dear Folks,

      I am fairly new to this discussion list, and I am not a catholic,
I am in the RCIA, and plan to be baptised and receive my first communion
come easter time. I must admit I am a bit confused about all of this
consecration talk and the end times. I have been attending mass for a
few years and I am well read in catholic doctrine and teachings. Plus
with the RCIA process I have learned more about the teachings of the
church. We meet once a week at the Newman center and talk about alot
of various things. Father Greg and Deacon Jackson provide the instruction
and they have never mentioned anything about the end times coming now.
Deacon has visited both Fatima and Madegorea (sorry mispell) and has
told us of his experiences. I realize and fully understand the high role
that Mary has in the church. But, alot of what has been said is not
based on the Holy scriptures, Jesus himself said that we will not know
when the end times are going to be. Would someone emlighten me on all
of this I be confused.
                                    Bill
                                    acswiley@eku.bitnet
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Date: Monday, 11 Jan 1993 16:00:29 EST
From: Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Saints

Melissa,

No, it is not accurate to say that only the Catholic Church
canonizes saints.  The Eastern Orthodox Churches, and probably at least
some of the Oriental Orthodox Churches do, too.

A good general book on saints is Saint Watching by Phyllis McGinley.
It was first published by Viking in 1969 and is now in print as a
paperback from Crossroad.  (I think there may have been some other
editions in between.)  It was a best seller and can be found in
many libraries.

I can't think offhand of a book about St. Lucia.  You could go to
a good library and look her up in Butler's Lives of the Saints, and
in the New Catholic Encyclopedia.  There may be references to other
works there.
-------
Marty Helgesen
Bitnet: mnhcc@cunyvm   Internet: mnhcc@cunyvm.cuny.edu

"Experience beats in vain upon a congenital progressive."
        --  C. S. Lewis
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From: 15942@brahms.udel.edu (Stephen Barr)
Subject: Re: The Woman Caught in Adultery (John 8:1-11)
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 19:06:41 GMT

     Excellent post, Cindy. I have two questions.
(1) I have heard this claim that Scripture only
condemns homosexual rape, cultic homosexuality, etc.
Could you (or anyone else out there) tell us what 
the evidence is that Paul's condemnations only referred
to that? When he condemns Lesbianism is he referring
to cultic Lesbian acts only? There is nothing in the
context that suggests it to me. He talks about these
if I recall correctly in the context of lust rather
than idolatry. (2) Even if Scripture is ambiguous,
why is not the constant teaching of the Church enough?
    Oops. A third question. Is it not possible that
the revulsion you feel is a consequence of the law of God
which Paul says is written on our hearts. Why should we
not trust this moral revulsion as I am sure we all
trust our moral revulsion at incest, fornication,
adultery, bestiality, necrophilia, etc.? Steve..
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Date:         Thu, 7 Jan 1993 15:51:00 EST
From:         "Alfred S. Chavez" <achavez@UMSA.UMD.EDU>
Subject: Re: EWTN

To reply to Jim Mcintosh (partially):

>On Thu, 7 Jan 1993 09:02:00 EST Alfred S. Chavez <achavez@UMSA.UMD.EDU> said:
>>Yesterday there was an exchange concerning the consecration of Russia and
>>the campaign by many Catholics, some lead by Fr. Nicholas Gruner, to have
>>the Pope "do it right."

>Okay (displaying my ignorance)... I've heard of consecrating bread and
>wine, but never countries. Can someone tell me:

>(1) What does it mean to consecrate a country?

I regret not completing the phrase; it s/h/b "consecration of Russia to the
Immaculate Heart of Mary."  The meaning is self evident, almost, to me.  It
just means to dedicate the country, in the sense of giving it a holy purpose.
I suspect that HH.JPII was thinking along your lines when he dedicated not only
Russia but the whole world to Mary's Immaculate Heart.  Christ's unwavering
emphasis on Mary never surprises me.  As a man, He made himself subject to
the law, which was not detracted from one iota by His coming.  He honors His
mother, and having given (consecrated?) her to us at the foot of the cross,
expects us to honor her as well.

>(2) What is the right way to do it? The wrong way?
I'll let Elizabeth take this one.

>(3) What are the actual effects of consecration?
Well, haven't the changes in Russia surprised you, just a little?

>(4) Once consecrated, will a country act more justly? If so can we also
>consecrate Iraq? How about Somalia? The US? Is there some way to propose
>countries for consecration?
>(5) Is the country consecrated, or the people? If the government is changed
>do you have to consecreate the new entity? How about just a new party in
>power?
>(6) Does the country have to request it, or can you do it against their will?
>(7) How long does a consecration last before you have to do it again?
>
>Inquiring minds and all that...

Ouch. But I did have a good laugh first.

His Peace,
Fred Chavez
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Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1993 21:01:56 PST
From:         mberhan@CUP.PORTAL.COM
Subject:      Medjugorje

There has been an discussion on Medjugorje which I've found very
interesting.  I'd like to add a few things to the discussion.

Two close friends of mine went to Medjugorje several years back.  It
touched them deeply.  They saw the miracle of the sun and other such
gifts.  I have never been there though I believe in the messages.
I'd like to talk about Scottsdale, Arizona.

Father Spaulding of St. Maria Goretti travelled to Medjugorje before it
was widely known.  He was touched.  One time he went (I believe 1988) and
things were very different.  There were so many people, rude people,
tourists, and it was too commercial.  As he was praying in the Church
there he told Our Lady that She just couldn't be here any longer, it
wasn't possible.  Our Lady spoke to him interiorly in a loving voice
saying something to the effect of "I am here and I am going home with
you."

I believe it was this same trip that some parishioners travelled with Fr.
Spaulding.  One of them was a young woman named Gianna.  She went to
listen to a talk given by Wayne Weible who Elizabeth has already
mentioned.  At the end of his presentation, he was led to her and said
"You will play a very significant role in Our Blessed Mother's plan."
Well Gianna thought he was crazy but the next day as she was making the
Way of the Cross climbing Mt. Krizevac, she heard "Pray for peace and I
will bless you."  It was the voice of Our Loving Mother.

Now Father Spaulding did not really understand what Our Lady meant when
She said she was coming to Scottsdale.  When they returned, some young
adults started to come to this priest saying, "Father, I think I am going
crazy."  They heard the voice of the Blessed Virgin Mary.  One after
another they came and I believe there are nine such young visionaries.
The impact of the messages on their lives is astounding.  Most of these
visionaries didn't know each other before all of this happened and some
didn't know what was going on at Medjugorje.

There are secrets that have been given.  I understand how this causes
people concern.  It bothers people I know who truly believe in the
messages.  The Church has approved the Fatima apparitions and secrets
were given there.  Our Pope knows the third secret but chooses not to
disclose it, I'm sure for good reason.  So there is a precedent.

Our Lady is reportedly appearing to many visionaries around the world.
No doubt that some, perhaps many, are false.

"I AM YOUR JESUS OF MERCY" are reported teachings of Our Lord and Our
Lady at Scottsdale.  It is available from "The Riehle Foundation" for
those who are interested:

The Riehle Foundation
P.O. Box 7
Milford, OH  45150

May the Lord bless us all.

Mike Berhan
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Date:         Tue, 5 Jan 1993 19:08:10 -0500
From:         Steve Creps <creps@SILVER.UCS.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject:      Intercession

   I would like to acknowledge the intercession of the Blessed Virgin
Mary, St. Joseph, St. Jude, and other Saints for a very favorable
answer to my prayers.

-       -       -       -       -       -       -       -       -       -
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
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Date:         Tue, 12 Jan 1993 14:05:22 MST
From:         Brent Winiger <ABDWINIG@IDBSU.IDBSU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: The Woman Caught in Adultery (John 8:1-11)
              12 Jan 1993 15:02:07 -0500 from <URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM>

On Tue, 12 Jan 1993 15:02:07 -0500 <URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM> said:
>
>Brent, I've never denied being a cafeteria Catholic. When the physical
>evidence conflicts with tradition or scripture, I choose the physical
>evidence as the truth.
>

Sorry to be so pointed J.J., but is your physical evidence were so
self-evident, all of us would be in your camp on this issue.  Since I don't
see that physical evidence, (& I've had several homosexual acquaintances)
I'll defer to the Bible, Sacred Tradition, and the Teaching Authority of the
Church.  Actually, I would anyway, since my knowledge and experience is so
limited, and I believe the others can more accurately convey God's will for us
than can our limited observations.


Brent.
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Date:         Wed, 6 Jan 1993 16:06:31 -0500
From:         WARNER <WARNER@JEFLIN.TJU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Church rules

How interesting and about two months late on the timing--

These commentaries on receiving the Eucharist several times serve to remind me
of how much I need to learn and how hard it is to be a well-informed practicing
Catholic.

Here's a recent happening:

The Bishop came to celebrate the 10:15 Mass at our parish.  I'd never been in
his company before, wanted to hear him preach, and it was the speical Mass for
our church's feast day, so I went, really celebrated, and of course, received
the Eucharist.

Well, I was lectoring the same day at the next (11:30) Mass.  At Communion
time, just as I got to the priest, I got a sinking feeling ("Oh! No! I can't
get communion, because I just recd at 10:15!!" The same snking feeling one gets
when you order a meat dish and --then--realize it's a Lenten Friday.)  I
 blushed, and put my folded
hands up to my lips and walked back to my pew.

The priest, whom I dined with at parish supper that night never said anything
to me about it.  Next week, during Bible Study session, a participant brought
up the "new rule" of receiving twice if there are different communities and
different events.

  So, I suppose I could have --
How do you all interpret this set of circumstances?

Another question:  How does a Catholic keep well-informed?
Adult faith development sessions don't usually get this detailed.
What do each of you do as laypeople to know more/enough?

--Betty Warner.
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From: zerucha@shell.portal.com (Thomas E Zerucha)
Subject: Re: The Woman Caught in Adultery (John 8:1-11)
Organization: Portal Communications Company -- 408/973-9111 (voice) 408/973-8091 (data)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 03:52:35 GMT

In article <930112150207.2e008a57@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM> URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM writes:
>
>Then I agree with these people, and you should join us, however, when the
>physical evidence does not agree (we were talking about loving homosexual
>relationships) then the traditions and/or scriptures need a revisiting.
>I guess I don't see it as a "all or nothing" situation.
>
>-J.J.

Interesting.  I am curious to hear your "physical evidence".  One problem
convincing people that Natural Law should govern morality is that much of
the discussion occurs on the metaphysical instead of physical level. 

---
zerucha@shell.portal.com - main email address
Thomas Zerucha / 24075 Lee Baker / Southfield MI 48075 - hardcopy
(313)594-4941 - work phone
Pax Domini sit sempre vobiscum
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Date:         Fri, 8 Jan 1993 11:10:43 HST
From:         Len Howard <tas@PEGASUS.COM>
Subject:      Re: EWTN

Michael, I am reminded of the scriptural reference alluding to the Old
Law as the servant who took care of the child until he grew up,
teaching him proper behavior until he was mature enough to control his
own destiny.  I think there still is a place for observance of the
law, with due consideration for associated punishment for breaking the
law.  This is the first stage of spiritual development, and the one in
which most of our people function.  Our task is to advance to the
point where we love God and do as we will in the sense Augustine meant
it.  But I have no expectations that our entire population will ever
come close to that goal.

Shalom,                         Len Howard