From: boris@sys6626.bison.mb.ca (boris)
Newsgroups: can.general
Subject: Sylvain and Boris
Date: 9 Apr 92 09:36:46 GMT
Organization: system 6626 BBS, Winnipeg MB

This posting is Boris's reply to Sylvain. It is LONG. (250 lines).
 Abort now or read til your eyes bug out.  :}
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Much stuff deleted throughout. (Trying to keep it down)

re: Politicians
>You forget something: he made his mind 20 years ago. For him, it's
>impossible for French-Quebeckers to survive in Canada.
>He's not interested in Canada's problems, but its own: it's normal,
>it's written in Parti Quebecois's constitution: independance.
>How do you expect him to want to solve Canada's problems?  He gave up
>20 years ago.
>Now, I assumed you were talking of Parizeau. Because you talked about
>him not being ready to any compromise.
   Yup. Because he has closed his mind he should be removed from
positions of power. Time has passed and much has changed and is
changing. He has to take that into account or he will cause Quebec to
regress into a third world nation even if Quebec separated.  Are his
fiscal policies that archaric as well?  As his wanting power, how
about his statements of last week? He said that he would like to put
of quebec's referendum off for a year or two. The next day he
retracted that statement because it made him look opportunistic.
It looks like he wants to wait for just the right moment to gain
power, and not to resolve the issues. 


>About Bourassa....(Stuff deleted)
 At least he is not a closed minded fanatic. To me he seems a might
cowardly too.

>In my messages, I talked about nationalists. I did not speak about 
>any political party.
So who speaks with the combined voice of the sepratists? Or for the
Nationalists? Or the federalists? 
 Political parties, and the leaders thereof.

 
>>>To a lot of nationalists in Quebec, the powers demanded are not a 
simple
>>>"power grab". Considering it so is simplifying the problem to the 
>>>extreme I believe.
>>Maybe, but the powers are a brass ring which they are reaching for.  
>>They believe the powers are necessary for the survival of the 
>>culture.  They are not.  Quebec is a valid culture due the 
>>respect and admiration it has earned, but it can not be 
>>purchased at the expense of other cultures. In reality they are 
>>not purchasing it. They demand it.  They say they will have 
>>it even if they have to rip apart other cultures to get it. 
>> It all sounds like politicized extortion to me. 
>You speak of admiration of my culture. The problem is that many French
>Quebeckers don't see any admiration from "TROC" for their culture, they
>feel like second rate citizens. They don't see any respect.
>  Funny, isn't it?
Just as TROC sees nothing from Quebec. Both areas have the same
problem. Both have a language barrier and so miss a lot of what is
said about the other. If however someone says something that offends,
then it will be translated as the latest proof of "conspiracy".
 Just as it's the wars and disasters that the news always has. Every
time some ecological disaster happens it makes the news, but the
companies who do good ecological things don't.  It's the same with
Each of the area's reporting of the other, only the bad news gets
translated and reported.  I have, for instance, never seen on the
news, a Quebec francophone say something nice about TROC. I imagine
that You have never or rarely seen someone from TROC say something
nice about Quebec on the Francophone newscasts.
 That is why I said last post that we have to learn about each other
if we want to solve the constitution problems.


>Quebec demand the distinct society so that it can be a true equal.
>("Egalite ou independance" was the campaign motto of Quebec premier
>Johnson in late '60s.)  (that's my interpretation)    
>And "TROC" reject it because they fear to become second rate citizens.
  NO. Quebec is already an equal. It is equal witheach of the other
NINE members of confederation. The distinct society would have made it
more than equal. Quebec is one of TEN, not one of TWO! There is
nothing to stop Manitoba from doing just what Quebec is doing. 
  Have you ever heard of the 'confederation of regions' political
party? Or how about the 'western canada separation' party? Much of the
problems that Quebec is having with ottawa are shared by the other
regions. Western canada has always thought it was getting shafted by
central canada, just as the atlantic thinks it always gets shafted by
ottawa. I have heard the demand for Equallity coming from more places
than just from Quebec.


>Well, it does not sound like extortion to me.
> It sounds like anger. Longtime
>anger which exploded in early '70s, which gave language bills.
>Injustice has been replaced by the other's injustice...
>As we say in French, anger is not a good "advice-giver"...
>(would "advisor" be a correct word?)
>The anger is still there.
Sure it's anger alright. Maybe it's even justified, but its the form
and the direction thaat the ager takes that is like extortion. And I
did not mean all quebec is extorting Troc, just some of the
nationalists and separtists.
  And some of the people of troc are just as guilty of the same
misdirected anger.


>>>Did you ever wonder why, basically, Quebec wants these powers?
>>>It's not just for the fun of power. Nationalists would say it's the
>>>only way for Quebec to be able to preserve its society.
>>  How have they managed to maintain thier culture up to this 
>>point? What methods have they used? What institutions?  Why 
>>are these seen to now be inadequate?  What exactly is it that 
>>is in need of preservation?  Why is the aquisition of more 
>>powers the only possible solution?  Why is it neccesary that 
>>only quebec have these powers?  
>Let me correct you. I don't think Quebec is refusing to let other
>provinces have the same powers.
Parizeau has stated in cbc news interviews that only quebec should 
get these powers. Does he not speak for some of quebec?
  I would like you to try to answer the questions just above, please.


>The problem is that TROC *does not want them*. And does not want Quebec
>to have them either...
The division of powers is what binds confederation together. Quebec
appears to want to alter the very nature of confederation to favor
itself even if it is detrimental to another one of the TEN members of
confederation.  Those who are hurt by certain proposals of quebec's, of
course do not want those proposals. If it was proposed that only men
be allowed to vote you can be sure that the women of canada would be
against it.  You will remember that meech failed for two reasons; one
that NFLD. felt threatened by the distinct society clause, and the
aboriginals in MAN. felt they would be hurt by being excluded.


>> How will these powers help quebec preserve it's cultural 
>>cuisine for instance? What is french-canadian culture anyway?
>You just have to learn French and come live in Quebec (or in New 
Brunswick). 
>You will discover what is the french-canadian culture.
>Even French people from France discover an alien world when they come
>to Quebec.
>And a culture is not only limited to its cuisine.
>I would say, the culture determine your behavior, your values, your
>dreams, your way of thinking...
  Ah, but I shouldn't have to. If it was spread across canada then
those who cannot afford to travel could learn of it and share in it
and take pride in it and be honoured to be a part of it. Are not the
metis here in manitoba and in sask. part of the french canadian
culture? WE celebrate it here with the "Festival du Voyageur." WE have
adopted it as part of manitoba's culture. The french as well as the
english are part of a manitoban's heritage and we do not cast out one
half of ourselves to preserve the other half. Why does Quebec wish
to?
  Of course cuisine is not all there is to a culture. But you are
wrong, Culture is what you do, and say, your values and dreams and
ways of thinking, not the other way around.  Culture comes from these
things, it does not make these things.  Culture comes from within not
from without. That is the fundemental error most people in quebec seem
to be making. Quebec's culture cannot be killed as long as there are
quebecers.  TROC gets blamed for trying to destroy francophone culture
in canada. It's not true.  If you teach your children your values and
traditions and dreams, then they will keep them alive within
themselves and by doing so keep your culture alive. if you do not then
your culture slowly errodes. Quebec has to take a good portion of the
responsability for the status of it's culture. If your children do not
speak french who's fault is it? Is it the fault of some farmer in
alberta? or a fisherman in nova scotia? Or is it the fault of the
system that should be teaching the children to speak french?
  Quebec should be developing it's culture not letting it's culture 
develop them. 


>>You forgot to mention the English Quebecers and the French Canadians.
>>  People who continue to beat the living with the bones of 
>>the dead are stupid, idiots, morons, and brainless fools. 
>>They are suitable only for being the resting place of overly 
>>ripe tomatoes. 
>>  The past is done. Carved in stone. Immutable. Do not forget 
>>it, but also do not re-live it.
>I am sorry, but the past is continuously re-lived, when I see
>Canadian Rating Bond Service giving a bad mark to Quebec because
>of political reasons (independance), when a respected English
>Canadian journalist say that Parti Quebecois politicians should be
>put in jail (Diane Francis), when APEC walks on Quebec flag,
>when stupid Quebec nationalists burn the Canadian flag...
>All these actions do not contribute to forgetting the past... 
I called them idiots and morons and tomatoe faces, did I not?
 The C.R.B.S. probably did it because of the potential instabilities
of the economy and because of the possibility that Quebec might not be
able to pay for them if things did go bad.  These are capitalists.
they only care about money not politics.  It just means they have lost
confidence in quebec to make them money not because quebec wants
independance. They can do business in quebec whether it's independant
or not, but making money might not be as much of a sure thing.


>>What is so distinctly different about quebec?  
>The *culture* is different. We live in separate worlds.
>The law is different. The way of doing business is different.
>Values are a little different. Behavior is different.
Hey that's true about different areas of Winnipeg. So? 
Every big city does things different from little towns. Does that make
big cities distinct?  The life of a farmer is very different from the
life of a stock-broker,but does that tmake them distinct from each
other? 


What is the same between Quebec and Manitoba?  That is a more
difficult question to answer, I know, but try please. 


>>>What do you think?
>> The main problem between us is the lack of knowledge of each 
>>other and the mistrust that generates.  The unknown is 
>>always scary.  Whether it's a dark alley, a different culture 
>>or the future ramifications of a new law.  Having someone 
>>push us into that dark alley or into passing that law only 
>>makes it worse.  Then that alley or law looks malevolent and 
>>our instinct is to resist being pushed.  Some, like the 
>>separatists, are actively threatening us as we are being 
>>pushed into the alley. 
>In what way the separatists are threatening you???
They wish to harm the economy of my country. 
They wish to deny my right to be proud of quebec by making it
foreign. They wish to remove from me part of my heritage and part of
the legacy my children should inherit.  They wish prevent my children
from learning french as part of their heritage. They repudiate and
denegrate the "english" part of my heritage.  They accuse me of the
crimes and faults of my ancestors or the ancestors of other people.


>They are not threatening anybody: they say, "we want our own country."
They already have a country. canada would not be canada without
quebec.  They just don't like to share it with others. They are
selfish and greedy.


>Is it threatening?
yes


>When 2 children are playing together, and one of them say "I don't want
>to play anymore", is he (or she) threatening the other???
If the two are part of a team, then by destroying the team, the one
threatens the other with ruin or the inability to play.  But that is
only the separtist view. The nationalist would be saying "you make us
captain of the team or we leave".  


BORIS
CANADA

Live! Take care of yourself. 

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