From: SG.MML@isumvs.iastate.edu (M. Loughin)
Subject: Re: Re: joint post on discrimination, long!
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 20:38:04 GMT

In article <122420102@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM>,
daq@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Doug Quarnstrom) writes:
>In alt.callahans, turner@reed.edu (another face in the mirror) writes:
>
>> Caithelin is at it again...
>>
>> >[Marie]
>> >True, you are not a peer of the President.  But you *are* the peer
>> >of men at your social level.  Let's use a very trivial example.
>> >I play volleyball.  I'm okay at it.  I have female friends who
>> >are excellent players.  When they play with men, most of whom
>> >are not as good at it as the woman, many men will virtually push
>> >the woman out of the way so they can hit the ball.  It seems
>> >obvious to the man that his bad play on the ball *must* be better
>> >than anything the woman can do.  He assumes this as a man.
>
>This paragraph is extremely sexist, and I find it offensive.
>The men you know may do this, but this generalization is the
>very essence of sexism.

Is this a generalization?  I did not say, nor mean to imply, that
even a majority of men act this way.  In fact, I said "many men."
I have been playing volleyball for 5 years in two different states,
in three different leagues, and I see it over and over.  In cases
where I have heard such men asked why they behaved this way, they
reply something to the effect that "she wasn't going to get it."
Or they get defensive.  They often repeat the behavior after someone
has taken them to task -- they just don't believe the woman can
play.  They *will* learn after either strong words from the
woman (see bellow) or if a fellow male on the team has a chat
with him.  Personally, I am more likely to give a dirty look
the first time, make a small comment/suggestion the second time, and
shove him out of the way the third time.

Also, give me a little credit for powers of observation.  I don't
jump to the conclusion on the first violation.  I look to see if
it's repeated agains the men on the team.  Also, these are
frequently *good* volleyball players, who know how the game works
and know what their responsibilities are.  Consistent violations
in these cases are *not* due to type-A lack of control.

>In fact he might if he is the type of person you are suggesting and
>if the man he would be pushing fits certain physical stereotypes.
>You are using examples of pushy, type A people to generalize about
>all men.

Did I say *all men*?  Jumping to conclusions is bad for your
blood pressure.

>> >I have seen this very example happen more times than I can count.
>>
>> "I have to admit I've seen this example many times, had it happen to me for
>> that matter...my response, "You hit a ball in my area one more time and I'm
>> going to elbow you in an unpleasant place, now knock it off."

Notice that the quote, above, is from a woman other than myself.
Is she also sexist?  Or is it possible that this is a behavior
of some men towards women when they participate in co-rec sports.
Is it possible that you do not notice it because it doesn't
effect you?

>doug

Doug, when(if) you play volleyball, you probably behave yourself.
However, you may not notice when someone else is misbehaving in
the manner I am talking about.  Afterall, it doesn't effect you.
Almost every woman I have played volleyball with has had this
complaint.  (I would say "every woman" with some confidence, but
I haven't talked to all of them about it.)   They
can't all be sexist, like me, can they ;-)?

--Marie
Newsgroups: alt.callahans