HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bz269@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (James D. Del Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: BATF info letter 11-16-92  (false info?)
Date: 16 Nov 92 23:10:13 GMT
Article-I.D.: usenet.1e953qINN3tg
Organization: 0


[Re: no transfer of NFA firarm serial numbers even if the original
firearm is destroyed]


"In addition, any machinegun manufactured after
May 19,1986 would be subject to the restrictions
of 18 U.S.C. 992(o), which precludes private
possession." 

	What gives?  I thought that the restriction was deemed
invalid in parts of the country by a federal court?

Jim Del Vecchio
From: fist@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Richard Pierson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: LONG, rec.guns discussion
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:10:37 GMT
Organization: Bell Communications Research (Bellcore)

Get the kids involved in reloading, you do the measuring and
priming. My 7 yo sizes, decaps & expands. I prime and load
powder. My 6yo daughter (wearing latex gloves) counts out
and stuffs the bullets in the primed,powdered cases then
hands them to my son who seats and crimps them. It works
great and when I dont want any help "Painting" they listen.
Now if I could just get them to clean up their rooms.....
-- 
##########################################################
There are only two types of ships in the NAVY; SUBMARINES 
                 and TARGETS !!!
#1/XS1100LH	#2/10/10/92
Richard Pierson E06584 vnet: [908] 699-6063
Internet: fist@iscp.bellcore.com,|| UUNET:uunet!bcr!fist  
#include <std.disclaimer> My opinions are my own!!!
I Don't shop in malls, I by my jeans, jackets and ammo
in the same store.
From: apskato@vax1.mankato.msus.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Buying a weapon for a female (need help)
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:07:45 GMT
Organization: Mankato State University

In article <1992Nov17.024246.7900@michael.apple.com>, ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith) writes:
# In article <01GR6YDYGQIO005YKS@VAX1.Mankato.MSUS.EDU> apskato@vax1.mankato.msus.edu writes:
# #
# #I am planning on getting a firearm as a gift for a female friend of mine and I
# #have a Ruger SP101 on order, but the closer and closer that christmas the more
# #nervous I get because the fraggin' thing hasn't shown up at my local retailer
# #yet.  It's been on back order since August. (the 101 I ordered was the .357 with
# #the 2" barrel).
# # 
# #Needless to say, Ruger is about to loose my business and I'm looking at
# #alternatives now.
# 
# What you are looking for is insurance.  Go to the local largest gun
# outlet around.  See what they have IN STOCK.  Buy it.
# 
# Make a list of priorities:  i.e. revolver over auto.  .357 over .32 or
# 9mm over .380 over .32 acp.  $300 over $500 ;-)
# 
# See what they have IN STOCK that hits most of your hot buttons.  Buy it.
# If the SP101 come in in time for Christmas, you have a nice backup or
# shooter gun.  If it doesn't, cancel the order ...

Thanks for the advice and thanks to all the e-mail replys that I have received
from this group.  They were all very helpful.  What I have decided to do is to
keep the 101 order in for a while and pursue looking at what is IN STOCK, like
Mr. Smith has suggested.   I'm going to target the Smith and Wesson products
since it's "what I know" and intend to purchase either a model 65 or a model 66
as soon as I find one in stock in the Central Iowa area.  I am going to get the
retailer I have been dealing with about three weeks to get what I want (since
that is how much more time of classes I have in mankato), but as soon as I get
back to Des Moines, all bets are off.  The first gun I find with a reasonable
price is getting bought...(I'm looking for a heavier .357 based on the advice
of some of the readers who sent me mail and the 66/65 seems to be the right
weight.)
 
This is getting too damn close to christmas for my liking. 
# 
# 
# -- 
# 
# E. Michael Smith  ems@apple.COM
# 

Eric Huber
Mankato State University
Law Enforcement Program
 
(It's one of those times that I'm thankfull that Iowa doesn't have a long
waiting period.  Just three days for the time it will take to get my permit
renewal to clear through. )
From: holger@vmars.tuwien.ac.at (Holger Reusch (Dipl. Gerhard + Joe))
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bad tactical position ( was Psychology in Defense)
Date: 16 Nov 92 16:46:24 GMT
Article-I.D.: email.1992Nov16.112309.1032
Organization: Technical University Vienna, Dept. for Realtime Systems, AUSTRIA

apskato@vax1.mankato.msus.edu writes:
#I'm not an officer yet (looks like next year that will change) but I can tell
#you want I have observed and have learned.  If the suspect isn't following your
#verbal commands, you just wait him out until you can get some help.  Think
#about it...what are your other options? Shoot him? He's not a immediate threat.
#Are you going to try and wrestle him to the ground?  Of course not.  You've got
#the gun, you are calling the shots and, generally, time will be on your side.

If you have called the cops, your friendly intruder has the prob-
lem of time running out.  You can afford to wait him out.

#If help isn't on the way and you have no way of contacting help.  Then you
#should still wait him out. Essentially, "the ball is in his court".  Keeping
#trying the verbal commands.

The alternative, shooting because he doesn't do what you want, is
certainly  a  bad idea.  I doubt that your average thug will just
sit down and wait until hell freezes over  or  you  fall  asleep.
After all, he wants something (to steal, I presume) so he doesn't
gain anything by waiting.

IMHO, the best course of action is to leave  a  suspect  a  clear
possibility  to  escape.  If I found somebody inside my flat, I'd
yell "GET OUT  HERE  OR  I  SHOOT  YOU!  OUT  NOW!",  instead  of
"FREEZE!" or something similar.

The natural human reaction in a state of panic is  to  run  away.
That's what I am trying to provoke.

-- 
| Holger Reusch                             |
| Technical University of Vienna, Austria <-+--- No kangaroos here,
| Dept. for Real-Time Systems               |    sorry!
| holger@vmars.tuwien.ac.at                 |
From: jamaass@bluemoon.use.com (Jeffrey A. Maass)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: LONG, rec.guns discussion
Date: 19 Nov 92 21:05:29 GMT
Organization: Blue Moon BBS ((614) 868-998[024])

lriggins@afit.af.mil (L. Maurice Riggins) writes:

# In article <iuLauB2w165w@bluemoon.use.com> jamaass@bluemoon.use.com (Jeffrey 
# #amirza@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Anmar Caves) writes:
# ## Back to technical stuff.  I've reloaded over 550 rounds of ammo on a
# ## single stage press over the last two days, what a job!
# #
# #Gee, I just came up from 1.5 hours loading ammunition on my Dillon
# #RL-550B (500 rounds): what a job!
# #
# #8-)
# #
# I must be doing something wrong... it takes me around 3 hours to do
# 500 rounds of pistol ammo.  Maybe it's all those "attention" breaks 
# from the wife and kids trying to compete with the Dillon :-) (tough
# competition).  I can't even imagine the pain of a single-stage press.
# 
# (lotsa smilies)


In the past couple of days, I saw someone (here or on fido.firearms)
recommend that a complete novice reloader start with the Lee Loader
hand press: that should encourage a new loader to continue!

I can picture starting on a single stage press, but at a weekly
consumption of 500 to 600 rounds, I can't picture *me* using one!


Jeff Maass                   Amateur Radio: K8ND (@ W8CQK)
Powell OH (NW of Columbus)         Netmail: jamaass@bluemoon.uucp
From: jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Weapon for defense from cows
Date: 23 Nov 92 21:39:48 GMT
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University

#From article <viking.722470302@vincent2.iastate.edu>, by viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson):
# callison@essex.ecn.uoknor.edu (James P. Callison) writes:
# # If you shoot a cow, you're
# #very likely to be held liable for the rancher's loss (which can amount
# #to no small amount of change), even if it is on your property.
# 
# 	You'll have to check your local laws here, but the preferred
# method is to talk with your neighbor about the problem first.  Offer
# to help him mend his fence, install a hot-wire (you're going to pay
# for the right-side half of the fence due to custom, and be responsible
# for maintaining it).  I forgot to mention that an electric fence is
# fairly inexpensive, easy to maintain, and works quite well.  As a
# last resort, talk to your county sheriff.  He has to enforce the law,
# so tell him your problems and get his advice.
# 

Indeed, in many places you as a landowner are responsible for part of the
fence.  Here in Indiana, you would be responsible for the right half of
the fence as you stand on your property and face it.
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas Moore)
From: smpod@mars.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Thoughts on SA M1A
Date: 20 Nov 92 22:32:39 GMT
Organization: who knows

In article <AEE15BEBE0001A29@UALR.EDU>, hudson@ualr.edu writes...
#On the original M14s, as made between 1957 and 1964, the TRW machine line 
#was considered the very best, as it used then "spaceage" techniques.  Also, 
#the TRW rifles as a group shot more accurately and were more reliable, etc.
#... than the H&R or SA weapons.  If you are interested in the M14 and its 
#design and problems (as in, why was such a fine rifle made for only 7 years
#?) get a copy of Blake Stevens book.  I THINK the name of it is:

I don't think that the TRWs were better than the SA, not according to the
Stevens book. They may have been better than the H&R and Winchesters.
S
From: meyers@leonardo.rtp.dg.com (Bill Meyers)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: American Rifleman = Consumer Reports?
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:11:57 GMT
Organization: Data General Corporation, RTP, NC.

In article <5888@rosie.NeXT.COM> robert_walton@NeXT.COM (Robert Walton) writes:
[ ... ]
#I would *really* like to see AR become the "Consumer Reports" of Firearms  
#(since to my knowledge CR never "stoops" to firearms review), complete  
#with ratings, reviews, and such...  Sorely needed!

About 1967, Consumer Reports reviewed varmint rifles -- and top-rated
the Ruger Number 1.  I haven't noticed anything on firearms since then.
From: efk00@cd.amdahl.com (Eddie Kieger)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Glocks
Date: 16 Nov 92 23:10:08 GMT
Article-I.D.: JUTS.57hG025l2b3S01
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA


In article <22398@drutx.ATT.COM>, ljb@parkcity.dr.att.com
(BLO54620-BonhamLJ(DR2194)240) writes:
#
#In article <1dvdb7INN4ee@male.EBay.Sun.COM>, 49ers@eb5ts4.EBay.Sun.COM
#(Renie Maycon) writes:
#|> has any one ever had a problem with his or her glock breaking on
#him?
#|> What is a better gun Glock21 or Colt/Springfield 1911?
#|> what has a better trigger pull, more accurate , most likely to jam
#|> I want to know which gun is beter over all,
#|> which one is better in combat situations?
#
#
#Well, I'll tell ya.  We just went through this discussion on this net
#for the
#past week.  My apologies if you just tuned in and were unaware.
#
#To answer your question, I've only seen a few malfunctions with other
#people's
#Glocks.  They were as follows.
#Front site fell off. (Model 17, early U.S. shipment)
#Magazine lips bent or broke. (again early U.S.)
#Jammed. (guy insisted on using lead reloads in violation of Mfgr's
#warning)

This is unacceptable. My 1911A1 will feed Round nose lead reloads 
FLAWLESSLY and it has never had ANY feedramp or throat work of any kind. 
It also feeds semiwadcutters with only an occaisional jam (less than 1 
in 100).

Is it possible to get a feed job done on a Glock to let it run lead bullets??

If not, maybe the colt &/or clone IS a better gun?


#Glock v Colt:
#My opinion, (see previous posting for details) both will do the job if
#properly
#used, but I'll keep my Colts just a little while longer, thank you very
#much!

Amen!!!!!
 
Later, Eddie

Don't tread on me..........................................I bite
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Eddie Kieger                             efk00@cd.amdahl.com 
For Pay:      System Design Engineer     Amdahl Corp.
              Bringing you better mainframe computers
For Fun:      "River Rat"                SBU-XI SPECWARGRU1 (USNR)
              Bringing hellfire and brimstone to a river near you!
From: gt4458c@prism.gatech.edu (John Stephens Cronin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bad tactical position ( was Psychology in Defense)
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:09:58 GMT
Organization: Common Container Liberation Front


In article <1992Nov17.161418.2067@btree.uucp> btree!hale@UCSD.EDU (Bob Hale) writes:
#In article <1992Nov16.212303.14944@news.acns.nwu.edu> mikea@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Michael A. Atkinson) writes:
##
##I really don't think that shooting below the waist is a good idea unless
##that's your only good target.
#
#What if the perpetrator is wearing a ballistic vest?

Shoot for the head if you are a decent shot.  If he has a vest, he probably
also has a gun and is prepared to use it.  Or use a rifle, it will go through
over 99% of vests with little problem (real rifles, not pistol caliber types).
If the person is wearing a hard rigid vest (ie not a flexible kevlar type)
then definitely shoot for the head, as the person is armored to the hilt and
no doubt loaded for bear.  In any event, most intruders will not be wearing
vests, but I guess it would pay to be observant.  I would only go for the
lower body (ie legs) if I was a bad shot or the range was long, and even
then I might be cursing myself for not practicing more.  I am not a competitive
target shooter, but I am convinced I can hit a head sized object inside 10
yards.  Now, there is the stress of combat to be considered too, but I would
figure making the head shots (I'm going to shoot more than once) would be
my best bet in the case of an armed and armored intruder, unless I have a
realistic and viable option of flight, or using a rifle (SKS, here I come).

-- 
John Cronin	Internet: gt4458c@prism.gatech.edu	Phone: (404) 876-1419
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Live each day as if it's your last.  One day you'll be right.  -- me
Lighten up, you're gonna die whether you have fun or not.      -- me again
From: ghm@sserve.cc.adfa.oz.au (Geoff Miller)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: x-country skiing and target shooting
Date: 23 Nov 92 14:24:28 GMT
Organization: Australian Defence Force Academy, Canberra, Australia

wixer!wixer.cactus.org!will@cs.utexas.edu (Bill Staniewicz) writes:

#I don't recall the name for this sport but
#I remember that it involves x-country skiing and
#target shooting with a rifle. It was part of the
#winter olympics.

#My questions are:

#What is the name of this sport?

Biathlon.

#Outside of olympic competition are there any opportunities
#to compete?

Depends where you are, but in principle yes.  Certainly there are annual
national and international championships.

#What type of rifle and ammo is used?

The rifles are somthing like a UIT Standard Smallbore (.22 LR) rifle,
except that they use a 5-round magazine (spares usually carried in a 
holder underneath the stock) and have, in the latest versions, a very
quick straight-pull bolt action.

Geoff Miller  (g-miller@adfa.oz.au)
Computer Centre, Australian Defence Force Academy
Xref: sparky rec.guns:16033 misc.headlines:7059
From: micjrs@mica.mic.ki.se (Richard Soderberg, MD)
Newsgroups: rec.guns,misc.headlines
Subject: Re: Deer hunting accident with shotgun?
Date: 16 Nov 92 16:46:11 GMT
Article-I.D.: kixtal.187
Followup-To: misc.headlines
Organization: The Karolinska Institute, Sweden


In article <13NOV199207571679@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov> 
Charles Packer, packer@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov writes:
#Are deer typically hunted with a shotgun? 
  
In Sweden, where the prevalent deer is rather a kind of smaller roe 
deer with gutted weights of around 40 pounds, an overwhelming majority of 
these animals are bagged by hunters using shotguns. This works just fine 
as long as you are really careful avoiding long shots. The general 
consensus is that the maximum range for a sure kill is 75-90 ft using
shot size 3. However, even a slight underestimation of range will
increase the risk of a nonfatal (or "laterfatal") hit.

#the NY Times on Thursday reported that a deer hunter
#accidentally killed a jogger with "a single blast"
#from a shotgun. How close would you typically have to
#be from a person to shoot them dead with a shotgun?

That would probably depend on shot size, "target" clothing etc. but I
guess that to be really sure of a kill you would have to be closer
than the abovementioned range for deer. 
One has to be aware of the "fact" (well, at least in my opinion)
that there are two different kinds of shotgun injuries: the traditional
hit where only a part of the load hits the target and the extremely short 
range hit where all pellets hit home.
In the first case it is not uncommon to see animals collapse instantly
upon 
impact even though there are no hits to the brain,spinal cord or heart
etc.
Some theories have it that they die as a result of a Central nervous
system
collapse caused by the massive inflow of sensory signals from the skin.
(I once met a fellow hunter who had been shot i the leg with a shotgun at
fairly long range, he told me the instantaneous pain was absolutely 
unbelievable!)
Close range hits are extremely destructive, often causing extensive
substance
defects. (the term "blow the brains out" is very appropriate)
The reason behind this is that a single bullet will pass through the
average
deer/human delivering only a part of the kinetic energy while
the minute shotgun pellet with its low energy will transfer all of it to
the
target.
From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: too much realoding
Date: 20 Nov 92 13:46:40 GMT
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA

morlan@afit.af.mil (Bruce W. Morlan) writes:

#My understanding is that diesel is so hard to light off that even
#tracer rounds may not do it.  Any confirmation?  

	If you want a rip-roaring fire, diesel isn't going to do it.
It's hard to ignite and slow burning.  Try gasoline instead.

< Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu viking@iastate.edu >
<  ISU only censors what I read, not what I say.  Don't blame them.  >
<  "This isn't an answer, it's a pagan dance around a midnight fire  >
<   written in intellectual runes." -- Rich Young                    >
From: cramer@optilink.com (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Why are there no reliable semi-auto shotguns?
Date: 17 Nov 92 02:08:59 GMT
Article-I.D.: optilink.13195
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA


In article <9211110833.aa02917@sco1.qdeck.com>, burge@qdeck.com (Bill Burge) writes:
# In article <1992Nov8.083354.24874@netcom.com> tmi@netcom.com (Peter Alan Kasler) writes:
# #In <25499@sybase.sybase.com> mtxinu!sybase!joe@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Joseph Weinstein) writes:
# ##Why are there no highly reliable semi-auto shotguns
# ##for defence?
# #
# #	There is at least one: the Benelli M1 Super 90.
# 
# Make that TWO - I love my Beretta 1200FP.
# 
# Bill	burge@qdeck.com

Aren't these pretty much the same shotgun, sold under two different
names?


-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
"Foxes prefer rabbits with short claws." -- Nadja Adolf
From: upchrch!joel@peora.sdc.ccur.com (Joel Upchurch  )
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 45 ACP, 9mm
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:07:51 GMT
Organization: Upchurch Computer Consulting, Orlando FL

rboudrie@chpc.org (Rob Boudrie) writes:

# The current polularity of the .38 super is primarily due to one factor - IPSC
# Current rules make this one of the most advantageous calibers for that
# game.  Interestingly enough, IPSC "rescued" the .38 super from the 
# "ballistic scrapheap" - when is the last time you ran into a .38 super 
# which was not either an IPSC gun, or influenced by IPSC?  (I've seen one -
# a Colt serial #7xxx that a club member uses as a carry gun).   

I've also heard that .38 Super is popular in countries where 'military
calibers', such as, 9mm and .45 ACP are unlawful for civilians to have.
Unless I've got it mixed up with .38 ACP. From what I've read the .38
Super is actually a +P version of the .38 ACP.

One thing I'm curious about is how close could one come to duplicating
the 125 grain .357 Magnum load in .38 Super?

I've also wondered how laws against 'military calibers' will effect the
sales of .40 S&W pistols. It seems to me that it might make them more
popular is those countries.

(If your mail bounces use the address below.)
Joel Upchurch/Upchurch Computer Consulting/718 Galsworthy/Orlando, FL 32809
joel@peora.ccur.com {uiucuxc,hoptoad,petsd,ucf-cs}!peora!joel (407) 859-0982
From: jamaass@bluemoon.use.com (Jeffrey A. Maass)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bad tactical position ( was Psychology in Defense)
Date: 16 Nov 92 01:09:32 GMT
Article-I.D.: bluemoon.HLoauB5w165w
Organization: Blue Moon BBS ((614) 868-998[024])


I think it seems straightforward: if you (or someone else) is not in
immediate danger, you are unjustified in shooting. If the intruder is
advancing toward you, and is clearly capable of doing you (or family 
members) harm, then you migh have justification to shoot. If he
ignors you and walks out the front door, then I expect you should just
wave goodbye. 


Jeff Maass                   Amateur Radio: K8ND (@ W8CQK)
Powell OH (NW of Columbus)         Netmail: jamaass@bluemoon.uucp
From: callison@essex.ecn.uoknor.edu (James P. Callison)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Rifle in Defense ( was Re: Why are there no reliable semi-auto shotguns? )
Date: 23 Nov 92 14:24:38 GMT
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA

In article <1992Nov22.212433.2185@u.washington.edu> toby@carson.u.washington.edu (Toby Bradshaw) writes:
#In article <By03rD.51z@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu> callison@essex.ecn.uoknor.edu (James P. Callison) writes:
#
#[Stuff about long-range defense shooting deleted]
#
##Lemme guess...you've never fired a pistol, right? Or a rifle at short
##range...
##A pistol at 10 yards will be every bit as accurate as a rifle, but
##the difference is that the pistol is going to put the bullets where
##you aim, while the rifle is going to put the bullets where they
##would be at one tenth of the way to their target (i.e. they'll be
##hitting high), because the rifle is sighted in for a much longer
##distance.
#
#Actually, most centerfire rifles sighted in for maximum point blank
#range on varmints and big game will strike low at 10 yards.  The
#bullet first crosses the line of sight at about 25 yards, maybe a
#little more with a scope-sighted rifle.  Before passing out the
#condescension ("Lemme guess...") it pays to understand trajectory.

It wasn't my intention to be condescending, and whether it hits high
or low isn't the point; the point is, that at 10 yards, a pistol
will hit at its aim point while a rifle won't. You _can_ hit with
the rifle, but you have to adjust, whereas with a pistol, you just
line up the sights and shoot. Now the difference in a rifle's
trajectory may be negligible, but, depending on the circumstances,
it may not be. When you take into account the difference in
energy/momentum/whatever between your garden variety 9mm and .30-'06
or .30-30, that difference could become very significant indeed.
On re-reading the article, I think he actually meant 100 yards, which 
is an absurdly long distance for handgun shots (unless you have a 
SIG P210 or one of those Mauser pistols with a stock).

				James

James P. Callison       Microcomputer Coordinator        OU Law Library 
Callison@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu   /\    Callison@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu
	constellation!biglaw!callison@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu
DISCLAIMER: I'm not an engineer, but I play one at work...S
    Reckless discharge of a gun, That's what the officers are claimin'
    Bubba hollered, "Reckless hell! I hit just where I was aiming!
		--Mark Chesnutt, "Bubba Shot the Jukebox"