HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Renaissance floral deco
Date: 28 Jan 1993 18:54:36 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

All right, my lords and ladies, here's the question for the end-of-
week.  This question came in from the Steward's Office via FTD (you
know, flowers by wire; they presumably got Hilary's number out of the
directory of organizations) from a florist in Redding.  And he wants
to know:

	What kind of floral decorations would you have seen at a
	large, lavish, Renaissance wedding?

And the reason, of course, is that he needs to put together the flowers
for somebody's large, lavish Renaissance wedding (presumably not an SCA
person, or they would've gone directly to sources and not through FTD).

The wedding itself isn't till May, but he would like to have _some_ ideas
by Monday, which is when the bride has to go back to school in London.

So: any ideas?  Rough outlines for the florist to get started with?  
REFERENCES that he could look up--or we could look up for him--between
now and May?  Please  post or e-mail me at cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu
as you choose, and I'll summarize and forward.  Hilary thanks you and I
thank you.


Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin		Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West			UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable		cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu

Disclaimer:  UCB and the Cozzarelli lab are not responsible for my
opinions, and in fact I don't think they know I have any.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: nusbache@epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: Narrow-focus events
Organization: University of Toronto - Office of the Provost
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 19:42:42 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.001145.20318@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu> tip@lead.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin) writes:

AJSN>12 February, 1490, the Tabard Inn, Southwark, Surrey, England.
AJSN>Supper-time.

AJSN>Just so you know what the narrow end of the scale looks like.

TP>The front or the back room?

Both. 

Aryk


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Western Land Purchase
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 17:19:23 GMT

In article <727503223snx@sloth.equinox.gen.nz> bloodthorn@sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Jennifer Geard) writes:
>Unto the Gentles of the Rialto does Pagan le Chaunster send Greetings!
>
>I noticed a reference to the West Kingdom land fund in a recent posting.  
>Could someone please tell me what sort of land they're looking at buying and 
>what they plan to do with it?  Will there be a castle-building project?  What 
>sort of facilities?  Something to host a War?  A forge?  A mead-hall for 
>coronations and the like?

I will defer most details to a couple of people wh don't post much (or
at all...  though she may try what I suggested when she sees this...).

The 'target' (as I understand it) is a site suitable for typical West
Kingdom events--a weekend of camping with up to 1200 people at
present, and expected to grow.  If a site were perfect, the Trustees
think 40 acres would do (mumble, mumble, call it 16 hectares...).  The
actual piece of land under current consideration isn't perfect--but
it's 160 acres (a 'quarter section', if you're into US history).  Call
it 65 hectares.

All of the sorts of improvements you are suggesting would cost *large*
amounts of money--probably more than the land itself.

As for 'facilities'....  It kind of depends on what you mean by
'facilities'.  The West holds many of it's events under pretty
primitive conditions.  Some of our sites don't have running water at
all.  I can't think of any that have enough permanent toilets that no
added protable privies are needed.  Clearly, it would be desireable to
do about four 'significant' improvements:  internal roads and parking
areas with some minimal paving (i.e. not just dirt), running water--even
if just taps for filling containers to take back to ones camp, some
sort of sewage/sanitation system, and irrigation.  A'nice to have'
would be a large water impoundment--a lake.  While swimming is what
comes to most folks minds, the real need for a lake is a source of
large amounts of water in case of fire.

(As for the 'gentile cousins'--just remember that all to many folks
just can't spell.  Sanity has very little to do with it.)

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)

Nothing in this missive constitutes an act or opinion of the Lord High
Constable of the Kingdom of the West unless otherwise explicitly stated.
----
Hal Heydt                    |    
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |            You!
510-823-5447                 |    Out of the Gene Pool!
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |            You!
510-823-5447                 |    Out of the Gene Pool!
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ae766@yfn.ysu.edu (David Sanders)
Subject: Re: Province jurisdictions || "Persona Packs" 
Organization: Youngstown State/Youngstown Free-Net
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 19:29:26 GMT


Greetings to all, especially Pagan le Chaunster, from Vajk

Pagan asks:

   >  As for approval not being granted for the establishment of 
   >  branches started for reasons of personal politics, my 
   >  question is "How do they tell?".  No founders in their right
   >  minds are going to give the iedealistic and messy reasons
   >  for setting up an alternative branch, especially when with
    ?> a little thought they can usually come up with a perfectly
   >  sensible rationale.

First, the personal politics occurs PRIOR to any request to set
up a separate branch.  If the politics does not occur prior to
the request, then obviously the politics is not the reason, since
it did not occur in a time frame which would allow it to be
causitive.

Second, since the politics must have occurred priosr to a request
to separate for that reason, there is likely to be notice by
people outside of the branch experiencing the problem.  In fact,
the reports by the officers probably include some notice of 
any problems at the local level, especially in the reports by
the seneschal.

Third, that being the case, there are records of the problem
with someone official, like the kingdom seneschal, who has the
connections to make such a request unlikely to be granted.

Vajk
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: greg@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Hossein Ali Qomi (mka Gregory F. Rose))
Subject: Re: persona help
Organization: The Rialto
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 01:54:16 GMT

Arval writes:

>Out of curiosity: Did you just happen to reading the exchequer rolls of
>Edward III of an evening and happen across the name? :)  Seriously, do you
>ahve access to an index of names from those rolls, or was it something you
>just recalled?

Actually it's a function of research done several years ago and a reasonably
good memory.  The case in question was the payment of an amercement for
scutage by the widow of a craftsman who had purchased right to farm a piece
of land from a knight.  The knight apparently had misrepresented the value
of the farmland and gave his rights in fee to the plot to the craftsman as
settlement in a lawsuit.  It took several years for the exchequer to
discover that scutage was in arrears on the property and the widow paid
amercement to avoid fines.  It's one of the earliest cases of land in fee
being transferred in recompense of civil action and one of the more
interesting cases of scutage being required of someone who couldn't
possibly have personally done knight service.  And, yes, with a couple of
days notice, I can get access to rather a lot of the exchequer rolls 
through the Oxford Text Archive which has a relationship with the Public
Records Office.  Also, much of this material has been printed and is
available at major research libraries.

Really, though, I do it with blue smoke and mirrors...:-)

Hossein/Greg

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: greg@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Hossein Ali Qomi (mka Gregory F. Rose))
Subject: Re: Made in Atlantia
Organization: The Rialto
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 19:15:40 GMT

Unto the good gentles of the Rialto does Hossein Ali Qomi send greetings
and prayers for the blessings of Allah.

Lady Pagan and Lady Gwenllian are quite right in the individual cases
they cite of anthropomorphizing ascriptions of manufacture in medieval
artifacts.  However, I think that they have misunderstood my point.
I was speaking of central tendency, the mean, if you will, for such
ascriptions over a thousand-year period.  Certainly there are counter-
examples, but I think that that misses the point.  The reason why I
used terms like "more commonly," or "more likely," and the like, is
precisely because I was talking about central tendency rather than
outliers.  Now, for one of the specific cases: Anglo-Saxon artifacts.
You tend to see a lot of truly dreadful Latin style and grammatical errors
in Anglo-Saxon documents, inscriptions and artifacts (although there are
periods in Anglo-Saxon history where this is not the case, e.g., the
charters of Aethelstan II or Aethelred or Edward the Confessor).  Anglo-
Saxon use of Latin is an extraordinarily complex question.  This alone
makes the Anglo-Saxon cases seriously outlier.
                       
My bottom line is that a frequency count of such ascriptions over the
entire middle ages in western and central Europe would show forms of
"fio" occurring far more frequently than forms of "facio."  And Tadhg's
example of "fabrior" implies a level of Latin literacy which is simply not
exhibited by most medieval craftsmen.

My esteemed brother of the Book, Yaakov, raises two related questions.  The
first is the appropriateness of seals.  Certainly there were "national" seals
in the medieval period.  However, national seals were used for official
documents.  I don't think that was what Robyyan was talking about.
Second, he mentions regional and local ascriptions of production on
agricultural produce.  This was not uncommon.  However, it is two different
things, to my mind, to talk about an artifact being labelled as originating in
a particular city or region and to talk about it being labelled as a "national"
product.  I would find innocuous a label saying, for example, "in
Storovichiense fit" ("Storovichiensis" being how I would Latinize
"Storvik," which is a barony in Atlantia), but "in Atlantia fit" doesn't have
a medieval ring to it.

Hossein/Greg
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: kenm@maccs.mcmaster.ca (...Jose)
Subject: Re: Awarding Awards or Ooh, Ah, Oh
Organization: Department of Computer Science, McMaster University
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 15:19:02 GMT

In article <gfLQJI600Uh7E6BaE4@andrew.cmu.edu> "Andrea B. Gansley-Ortiz" <ag1v+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>
>Another nice thing that started in AEthelmearc since its (practically, 
>I believe) beginning, and spread over to the rest of the East is that
>the name of the maker(s) of the scroll is said in court. I'm sure there
>are other places that do or have done this. It gives a little recognition 
>to the people that work sooooo hard to make a part of court look pretty.

	Interesting.  I first saw this at Ice Dragon (in Aethelmark), and 
didn't know what to make of it.... "credits?  in court?"  Now the practice 
is spreading into Ealdormere, and I do know what to make of it: yet another
reason that I haven't been to a single SCA event since Pennsic (and won't until
Baronial duties require).  I've given up on the "historical recreation" myth,
and can't commit the same amount of time or energy to a social club with a 
medieval theme.  Yes, I'm having my three-year crisis (though a year early).

	Back on topic:  Royal court has become more and more like the Oscar's
and less and less evocative of anything Medieval; the clapping, I can understand
and live with, but the credits just bring us one notch closer to a mutual-
mastrubation society.


			....Ken
			(Cinaed de Moray would have the sense of
			 duty and chivalry to guard his tongue)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
".sig quotes are silly"|Kenneth C. Moyle          kenm@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca 
 - Kenneth C. Moyle    |Department of Biochemistry     MOYLEK@MCMASTER.BITNET 
                       |McMaster University       ...!uunet!mnetor!maccs!kenm
From: dprosser@titan.ucs.umass.edu (dp)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Tattoos
Date: 27 Jan 1993 01:59:08 -0500
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst
NNTP-Posting-Host: titan.ucs.umass.edu
Summary: Scythian tats

	There is a bit of info about a couple of Scythian tattoo finds in
``Scythian Art:  Crafts of the Early Eurasian Nomads'' by Georges
Charrie`re.  [If memory serves, the Scythians proper spanned about 
600 BC to 200 AD  --- a little early for most SCAfolk, but I have met
one or two in my travels.]  The sources are from two burials where mummified
remains were found, so the documentation is pretty good.  The figures show 
both the placement on the body as well as about a dozen of the individual 
designs, most of which are animal-based.  

	The pertinent info is:
		( title and author above)
	ISBN 0-933516-05-3,
	Alpine Fine Arts Collection, Ltd., 1979. 

		I'm interested in the subject, too, so I will pass on
anything I turn up  (currently looking for documentation on the  jewelry
that Roman military men wore as nipple rings :-))
					dp

(aka, Marius Lugotorix Gerontius filius Delenitor Demetae,  or
	Marius for short).
-- 
___________________dp  ==> dprosser@student.umass.edu______________________
``Cowboy coffee, chemical cream --- Ride ride ride on my stallion of green.
	Midnight showers, sleep in the flowers, and dream hurricane, 
     break-neck-speed, rapid-fire dreams!'' ---the mighty, mighty bosstones
From: moonman@camelot.bradley.edu (Craig Levin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: The Nature of Change and Cynicism
Date: 27 Jan 93 05:11:37 GMT
Organization: House of the Moss Rose

Greetings, fellow Rialtans. 

	The good knight Sir John Theophilous has said that the Rialto
has undergone a change that he sees for the worst. Insofar as I can
tell, he thinks that we have left the self-image of the campfire
meeting or post-revel circle for an academic debate, from friendly
discussion to fractious argument.

	I hope that he's wrong. I like the atmosphere of the Rialto
for its relaxed and free attitude. 
--
"If we do it three times, in the SCA, that makes it a tradition." 
Did I -miss- something there?  
                                              -Ioseph of Locksley 
 
Craig Levin/Pedro de Alcazar, Illiton, MKdm moonman@camelot.bradley.edu
From: Riki.Beth.Stein@f906.n142.z1.fidonet.org (Riki Beth Stein)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: robes/cloaks
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 01:27:02 -0500

And then Dave Aronson said...
 DA> uni@acs.bu.edu (Shaen Bernhardt) writeth:
 SB> I'm looking for a source for full length ritual robes with those
 SB> long floppy sleeves and a long draping hood.  Black would be nice.

 DA> Try your local fabric store.  Some assembly required.

In fact, the "costumes/novelty" section of a pattern catalog ought to 
have the sort of pattern you're looking for, too.  

That's assuming you actually NEED a pattern for something that simple, of
course.

-Riki


















 DA> Yes, seriously!  Sewing, even by hand, isn't THAT hard; you 
 DA> can try making patterns with cheaper cloth, or even paper 
 DA> (grocery bags?) first.


 DA> -!- Maximus 2.01wb
 DA>  ! Origin: R&K Engineering North - at R&K South (1:109/120.11)



... Tagline dispenser temporarily out of order
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.10

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ae766@yfn.ysu.edu (David Sanders)
Subject: Re: Made in Atlantia
Organization: Youngstown State/Youngstown Free-Net
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 14:27:31 GMT


Greetings to all, from Vajk!

Re: the discussion about seals, the use of latin
inscriptions, and "local ascriptions of production
on agricultural produce" (Hossein) 

While studying 9th century Magyar construction technology
I came across a term which I have seen used only in this
setting:  tamga.

The use with reference to the Khazars is such that it
appears to be a generic term, and not specific to the
Khazars, but since I have not seen the term any other
place, I am not sure.

Tamgas are essentially maker's marks.  With the Magyars
it was a mark put upon every 1000th brick at a brick-works,
and was sort of a commercial trademark, mint-mark, or logo
in its use.

A study of the use of tamgas, if that term can be
extended outside the Khazar sphere of influence, might
be pertinent to the discussion of "ascriptions".

Vajk
From: dprosser@titan.ucs.umass.edu (dp)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: What is a protege?
Summary: relationship of knights and squires
Keywords: squire
Date: 27 Jan 93 17:10:26 GMT
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst
NNTP-Posting-Host: titan.ucs.umass.edu


> mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:
>>...........................................  I've run into that
>>notion frequently, across the SCA, often tied to the idea that these
>>relationships confer rank on the dependent (which idea I certanly don't
>>attribute to you, Godfrey).  I find this a peculiar notion.

and icklinck@cayley.uwaterloo.ca (Ian "Rhys" Klinck) writes:
>I think it's from the (also mistaken) idea that protegees/apprentices/squires
>are specifically "Pelicans/Laurels/Knights in training", and that you have to
>be a squire to become a knight, etc...

	However, I have heard it said that in practice that it is the 
squire's knight or master who nominates said squire for consideration for 
the Chivalry.  That would seem to make squire-hood a prerequisite for 
knighthood.
	Please correct me if I'm wrong on this  (--- oh yeah, like I have to
ask on _this_ group :-}).
					dp
-- 
___________________dp  ==> dprosser@student.umass.edu______________________
``Cowboy coffee, chemical cream --- Ride ride ride on my stallion of green.
	Midnight showers, sleep in the flowers, and dream hurricane, 
     break-neck-speed, rapid-fire dreams!'' ---the mighty, mighty bosstones
From: Longshot@f19.n291.z1.fidonet.org (Longshot)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Crossbows
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 22:05:09

13 Jan 93  19:12:59
In their best Jack Nicholson voice, Brent Irvine said to All;

 BI> Does anyone know of anyone that makes 'reproduction' crossbows
 BI> that look like those of the period?

lo'
   Yes, we have a gentle in Calontir who is become quite skilled.  I will find
his name and address and post it for you on the marrow.
                                                         ~ Aindries


... Live by the sword, die by the crossbow.
 * Origin: Calontir -- We Deliver. (1:291/19.0)
From: Godfrey de Shipbrook <jlee@smylex.UUCP>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Awarding Awards or Ooh, Ah, Oh
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 08:34:34 EST
Organization: Shipbrook Software  (Tampa, FL)

Greetings from Godfrey!

> Ken (speaking as himself instead of Cinaed de Moray) writes:
> 
>         Back on topic:  Royal court has become more and more like the
> Oscar's and less and less evocative of anything Medieval; the clapping,
> I can understand and live with, but the credits just bring us one notch
> closer to a mutual-mastrubation society.

A lot of scribes put a great deal of time and effort into creating those 
scrolls.  Is it so evil that the Crown should take a second to recognise
the artisans who serve in that capacity?

It's not much of a reward for hours' worth of work; would you deny us
even *that* much?

+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Net:  Jeff Lee / jlee@smylex.uucp / jlee%smylex.uucp@tscs.tscs.com     |
| SCA:  Lord Godfrey de Shipbrook / Wyvernwood, Trimaris                 |
|       Per pale azure and argent, a clarion counterchanged or and gules |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
    "The only thing that helps me maintain my slender grip on reality
    is the friendship I share with my collection of singing potatoes."
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: baldy@fred.nas.nasa.gov (Robert R. Baldassano)
Subject: Re: Who's Next?
Organization: NAS Program, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 16:22:27 GMT

I may be incorrect, but at least here in the West - it is considered bad form for
the Exchequer and the Seneschal to be the same person. 
What with having the person who controls the money be the same person who needs 
access to it for events, etc.

This is in response to "Ulfie"'s note on being the "interm" Seneschal for his
Barony, as well as the "Baronial Treasurer".

Am I on the right Line for West Kingdom ? - for Corpora ?  - for other Kingdoms ?


Eirik

*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
*	Eirik Haarfager Goransson    | 	MKA	Robert R. Baldassano	      *
*				     |					      *
*	Email: baldy@nas.nasa.gov    |	" Real world, What Real World ?"      *
*				     |					      *
*				     |					      *
*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*
From: cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: body painting
Date: 27 Jan 1993 17:29:07 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article <1993Jan27.021623.5931@ncsu.edu> jmedward@eos.ncsu.edu (JEREMIAH M EDWARDS) writes:
>
>Try Woad!!

No, DON'T try woad.  Woad painted all over your body is a hallucinogen.
It will numb your perception of pain and make you feel like superman,
which is why the ancient Britons wore it into battle, and why you _don't_
want to wear it into battle.  The ancient Britons wanted to kill their
enemies for real, and you don't, and they didn't care if they died in
the process, and you do.

A year or two ago somebody did an article on pseudo-Pictish body painting.
She intensively researched all the markers and dyes she could find on
grounds of ease of application, permanency, resistance to smudging, toxicity,
etc., etc.  Ask a friend who's got a lot of back TIs, or write to the
Stock Clerk.


Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin		Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West			UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable		cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu

Disclaimer:  UCB and the Cozzarelli lab are not responsible for my
opinions, and in fact I don't think they know I have any.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca