HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tom@afthree.as.arizona.edu (Thomas J. Trebisky)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Beethoven symphonies -- don't just say no.
Date: 23 Nov 92 21:54:30 GMT
Organization: University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ


OK, bear with me.  I am an old enjoyer of classical music that is setting
out to build a collection of CD's. Back in the LP era, I had a set of the
symphonies on DGG label, Von Karajan and the Berliner Philharmonic.  I was
recently in a shop and saw DG label Von Karajan ADD disks, but also a full
set of Von Karajan on DG label, but DDD.  My guess was that the ADD disks
were the same as my old LP's, but that the DDD were new recordings.  I was
tempted to buy the DDD set, but thought I would ask this group what is
thought about these performances.  Von Karajan has always been definitive
Beethoven for me at least, but I am eager to hear other opinions and
perhaps to build a list of well-regarded performances of the Beethoven
Symphonies.

Maybe this has all been hashed over a dozen times in this group, but I am
new to this newsgroup, so I would be grateful to those willing to cover
this ground again.  (And if I shouldn't buy the Von Karajan symphonies, send
me email real quick!)
--
	Tom Trebisky	ttrebisky@as.arizona.edu
...."There's no sense in being precise when you don't even
.... know what you're talking about." 
                       - John von Neumann
From: dean@pico.qpsx.oz.au (Dean Economou)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Perfect Pitch Ability - Questions
Date: 19 Nov 92 14:32:52 GMT
Organization: QPSX Communications LTD, Perth, Western Australia.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

I'd like to add another thought to this thread.  It's been my experience that
many people who become proficient at singing (say in a choir) manage to
keep notes and keys in pitch memory for a certain fixed time.  The longer
one has been singing, the longer this time seems to be.  Let me stress
that these are not people who claim to have perfect pitch.

If you've ever sung an unaccompanied piece with a relatively long pause,
followed by an instrumental entry, you will probably know what happens
when the choir goes flat. CRUNCH!  The instruments will sound god awful
after the pause, for the length of time you remember the key you sang in.

So it would seem that many people have the ability to keep some kind of
absolute pitch in their heads for a time which increases with practice. 
My thesis is that perfect pitch is the ability to move this
pitch memory from our short-term memory to long-term memories.  Some
people seem to be born with this ability, some acquire it, and others seem
to be doomed to be forgetful forever.

When you think about it, we all have the basic equipment to at least
recognise pitches absolutely - our ears have special cilia to respond to
particular frequency bands.

Does anyone out there have some comments or further speculations on my
speculation?  Surely there must be some training technique that would
facilitate the transition from short-term to long-term memory.

Cheers,
Dean



Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: ridgway@athena.mit.edu (Lee Ridgway)
Subject: Re: Batons in period orchestras (was Re: More Haydn)
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 20:11:55 GMT

A related story from the accounts of the founding of the NYPhil, 150 years ago,
in 1842: The Society (of players) decided to have a conductor stand in front of
them, following what the London Symphony Orchestra (I think that's the right
one!) had decided 10 years earlier. I don't remember if the article I read
mentioned anything about a baton, though.

Do any of you historians of the 19th century orchestras know when groups like the
Gewandhaus started having conductors in front of them?
From: jeffw@or.credence.com (Jeff Winslow)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: tonality and modern music
Date: 22 Nov 92 03:44:38 GMT
Organization: Credence Systems Corp. Beaverton, OR

In article <1eh92dINNit1@calvin.usc.edu> alves@calvin.usc.edu (William Alves) writes:

>...consider this: there are plenty of
>dissonant pieces that are great audience pleasers. Heck, the amount of
>dissonance in a piece by Bach is truly astonishing for those who haven't
>really analyzed the note-to-note counterpoint. Thus when people say they
>don't like something because it's "dissonant," I am suspicious...
>I think that the difference between the dissonance in Bach and Schoenberg
>is not so much quantitative as we tend to assume, but rather that people
>more easily hear the logic, the processes, and the composer's voice in the
>music of Bach. 

My personal experience is that, intuitively, the music of Schoenberg *is*
much more dissonant than Bach. And, quantitatively, consider: in many pieces
of the former, and I suspect nearly all of the 12-tone ones, nearly every
chord contains a tritone or some kind of literal or unfolded minor second.
That is never true of Bach. Furthermore, they are not resolved, which is
rarely true of Bach. But I see this as support for, not contradiction of,
your contention that people can more easily hear the logic in Bach, and
I don't understand why observation of that ease would cause you to doubt the
role of the quantity of dissonance in creating it. But possibly what we
have here is a sort of violent agreement.

As for the audience pleasers, I wonder if the people you hear complaining
about dissonance were among the pleased.


And on a slightly different subject, I see Jon mentioned Berg's Seven 
Early Songs. I highly recommend that anyone who doubts that Berg could
write intelligible, let alone great, tonal music, to check out "Die
Nachtigall" in this set. I have heard that this piece was written to
fulfill a counterpoint assignment, which if true, would make its
beauty all the more astonishing.  Anybody know the story?

						Jeff Winslow
From: griffith@plains.NoDak.edu (John Griffith)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: The worst composer ever
Date: 23 Nov 92 07:55:35 GMT
Article-I.D.: ns1.By5soo.94n
Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computing Network

In article <By53q4.GEs@mach1.wlu.ca> brea9430@mach1.wlu.ca (breadner kenneth cecil joseph u) writes:
>Well, I know one composer who is always being put down, but who I think is
>actually not half-bad: PDQ Bach. :-)
>
>Or is it Peter Schickele (sp)? His spoof of "A Little Music" is hilarious,
>but it also has some musically interesting ideas. I never thought the
>third movement could be played simultaneously with "Take Me Out To The
>Ball Game! :-)

I have heard reviews that comment Shickele's own "real" music is not as good
as the spoofs he comes up with as his alter ego.  I personally cannot recall
hearing anything "real" by him (but I know I have) and I really enjoy his
PDQ stuff.
-- 
John W. Griffith		          	griffith@plains.nodak.edu
                                                ud136834@ndsuvm1
"There aren't enough Crustacean-Americans on postage stamps!"
					--Lenny the Lobster
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: rwd4f@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Rob Dobson)
Subject: Re: The worst composer ever
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 19:11:18 GMT

In article <1992Nov22.190630.15408@spang.Camosun.BC.CA> dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker) writes:
>>It's a poll--who do you think is the worst famous composer of them all?

>
>Andrew Lloyd Webber.
>
>There - that should kill this thread before it gets started.
>
Yes, we'll replace it with a thread about whether ALW is a 'composer', at
least in the sense that we call Beethoven, Wagner, Shostakovich, etc.
composers. I would say no, and therefore continue the thread. However, if
we do call ALW a composer, than he wins this one hands down. Yech.
From: inr@eccles.caltech.edu (I. Neill Reid)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Music to calm down by
Date: 19 Nov 1992 20:32 PST
Organization: California Institute of Technology
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: eccles.caltech.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <3344@voodoo.UUCP>, das@voodoo.boeing.com (Deb Schwartz) writes...
>At work these days, I seem to be in a constant state of stress, and have
>been thinking that some soothing music might help greatly.  I love classical
>music, but don't have a whole lot of exposure to it.  I would greatly
>appreciate recommendations for music that has a calming effect.
> 
>Thank you,
> 
>------
>Debbie Schwartz // das@voodoo.ca.boeing.com  // ....uw-beaver!bcsaic!voodoo!das

 Renaissance religious music might be a good place to look - 

  1) Palestrina's Lamentations of Jeremiah - there's a marvellous
   recent recording on Allegro by Pro Cantione Antiqua & Bruno Turner.
   Not exactly a well-known piece, but my most treasured discovery of
   1992. 

  2) Duarte Lobo's Requiem - on Hyperion's Portuguese Polyphony I with the
     William Byrd Choir & Gavin Turner. Early 17th century, but Portugal
     was a little slow to catch up with the rest of Europe stylistically, 
     so similar to the Palestrina

  3) In fact how about any of the great Renaissance Requiems - both of
   the Lassus works (Pro Cantione Antiqua have fine recordings), the 
   Vittoria (Tallis Scholars) or the Palestrina Missa pro defunctis
   (don't know of a recording, but Chanteclere - can never remember
    the spelling - were responsible for a fine performance on a
    St. Paul Sunday Morning programme).    
   After all, these works were meant to both assuage loss and provide
   uplifting spiritual reassurance and, irrespective of one's personal
   beliefs, those are amongst the strongest elements of the emotional
   atmosphere created in good performances of these works. 

   Of course, you may not care for Renaissance polyphony, so

   4) Vaughan Williams - The lark ascending, Serenade to Music, 
         Five Mystical Songs, Pastoral (3rd) symphony

  Neill Reid - inr@eccles.caltech.edu
From: wikla@cs.Helsinki.FI (Arto Wikla)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Music to calm down by
Date: 20 Nov 92 08:07:05 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki, Finland

My recommendation is theorbo music by Robert de Visee,
played by Hopkinson Smith. Calming down is guaranteed!
And in a very pleasing way.
The recorcing is already quite old, it is available 
as CD, anyhow. I do not remember the recording company, but
I think a good store can find it. 
(Theorbo is a kind of base-lute, its sound really makes good
for the soul!)
If somebody needs more information, let me know, I can check
the company and number of recording at home.

Arto Wikla, Helsinki, Finland
From: elkies@ramanujan.harvard.edu (Noam Elkies)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Tuba
Date: 17 Nov 92 19:01:29 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1992Nov17.140130.17535
Organization: Harvard Math Department

In article <2B091D77.8163@news.service.uci.edu>
jdooley@maemaster.eng.uci.edu (John R. Dooley) writes:
:>Some wierdo composer wrote a Tuba concerto. Anybody know
:>who he was and what he called it.
:
:That was no weirdo!!!!!  That was Ralph Vaughan-Williams!
:At least, as far as I know, that's the most famous.
:The piece is called (remarkably enough) the Concerto for Tuba
:and Orchestra in F minor.  (No nickname "Tubby" that 
:I know of - and, please don't give any record companies
:this marketing idea.)

"Tubby the Tuba" is a piece for narrator, solo tuba, and orchestra
that shows up every once in a while on children's concerts, perhaps
paired with Peter and the Wolf.  I don't know who the composer is;
it does have a somewhat memorable tune (must be if I still remember it
after >10 years):

G   E C |^B-   C D |E=   D C |B-   C B- |A-   B- A- |G   E C |D   G   |

G   E C |^B-   C D |E=   D E |F   E- F |G   F E- |D-   E- D- |C       ||

(transposed up a whole step, I think).

:[Tuba trivia: In early December every year, at the Music
:Center in LA, about 90% of Southern California's tuba players
:get together for what is known as Merry Tuba Christmas or
:Happy Tuba Hannukah.  It's an hour of Christmas Carols and
:Hannukah songs performed on Tubas.  Believe me - you haven't
:lived until you've heard 150 Tubas performing
:"Good King Wenceslaus".  So, is such stuff done in other 
:parts of the world??]

About 200 members of TUBA (Tub[a]ists' Universal Brotherhood Association)
have a similar gathering each December in NYC's Rockefeller Center, and
usually get a soundbite in the press.

Question: what's the proper plural of "euphonium", for those rare
occasions when you need to deal with more than one of them?

Disclaimer: I do not play the Tuba.

--Noam D. Elkies (elkies@zariski.harvard.edu)
  Dept. of Mathematics, Harvard University
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Rachmaninoff
From: pugh@pico.math.ucla.edu (David Pugh)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 01:45:42 GMT
Organization: UCLA Mathematics Department

In article <C2CTBWMP@cc.swarthmore.edu> rbrooks1@cc.swarthmore.edu (Rob Brooks) writes:
>In article <0aJguB2w165w@student.business.uwo.ca>,
>r4smith@student.business.uwo.ca (Richard Smith) writes:
>> 
>> ugh, ugh, ugh.
>
>I'm sorry, do you have something in your throat?  :-)
>
>Rachmaninov:  aah, aah, ahh.
>
>Rob (rbrooks1@cc.swarthmore.edu)
>
>
I believe Richard Smith was trying to spell my surname Pugh (I have
complained about his criticisms of Rachmaninov). Unfortunately, in his
haste, he omitted the capital P.

David (Pro-Rachmaninov)

--
|-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|
   David Pugh,  UCLA,  CA         |     Hot Dog, Jumping Frog
   pugh@math.ucla.edu             |     Albuquerque  -  Prefab Sprout
|-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|
From: acid+@cs.cmu.edu (Christopher Colby)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: #1 Brahms & Wagner #2 Brahms & Rachmaninov
Date: 18 Nov 92 15:48:12 GMT
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

In article <1992Nov17.172404.25133@digi.lonestar.org> gpalo@digi.lonestar.org (Gerry Palo) writes:
>Does anyone have any other candidates for the Brahms concertos?

In a recent _Fanfare_, there was an unqualified rave for a new Moravec
issue (can't remember the vintage of the performance, but I think '80s) of
one of the two concertos (I think the First).  The review was rather
convincing in that the reviewer claimed it was one of his favorite pieces
and labeled this performance the best he had heard out of a very large
field.  I can't remember the label.  He concluded by hoping they would
release a Moravec Second.  I've seen them both around, but I haven't yet
bought them.

These are great works.  I have Gilels/DG, whose Second I personally prefer
to Rubenstein/RCA, but obviously there are many who feel the opposite.

-chris
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: jim@fuji.eng.yale.edu (James J. Szinger)
Subject: Re: Considering 4'33''
Organization: Yale University, Intelligent Sensors Lab, Elect. Eng.
	<1ea0j3INNfgf@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU>
	<2B091B27.8067@news.service.uci.edu>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 13:14:25 GMT

In article <2B091B27.8067@news.service.uci.edu>
jdooley@maemaster.eng.uci.edu (John R. Dooley) writes:

>In article <1ea0j3INNfgf@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU>
>ronthal-adam@yale.edu (Adam Ronthal) writes:
>>I think John Cage was a poser.  Go ahead, flame me, but you'll never 
>>convince me that he had any real talent.
>>

>Ah, more open-mindedness from the Ivy League.  

Adam, Adam, Adam... You fumbled the ball, you fumbled the ball,
you embarrassed yourself and your team and your mother!  Oops,
wrong sport.  Let me ask you a question: Would you rather listen
to a piece (you choice) by Cage, or an ad lib 3rd Horn solo in
Apollo?

To the rest of you, please not that Mr. Ronthal does not speak
for anyone other than himself.  Please do not confuse his
opinions with those of the University or the League.  His only
claim to fame if that his girlfriend is a 2nd trombone.

As for myself, I like to think I have an open mind.  I believe
that Cage was an artist but am unsure if he was a musician.  In
addition, I am trying to decide if the fact that I like Mahler
means that he had talent or whether it means that I am a
sociopath.

Jim
--
James Szinger                        jim@fuji.eng.yale.edu

"He was born with a gift of laughter and a sense that the world was mad."
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: ujwb@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Jeff Beer)
Subject: Re: Considering 4'33''
Organization: Educational Computing Network
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 01:52:17 GMT

In article <1ec254INNbvt@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU> ronthal-adam@yale.edu (Adam Ronthal) writes:
>>that Cage was an artist but am unsure if he was a musician.
>
>Sure he was an artist, just not a very good one, that's all. 

But he has influenced so many people in many fields of art in addition
to music.

You also may not like his music, but he still gets top musicians
performing his music.  The Arditti String Quartet, Joan La Barbara, and
Margaret Leng Tan, to name of few, are no slouches.  They wouldn't be
wasting their time if they didn't think it was valuable.

Jeff
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: haynes@cats.ucsc.edu (Jim Haynes)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: RVW Tuba Concerto
Keywords: oops, I goofed.  Please don't shoot me, I'm only a tubist!
Date: 23 Nov 92 23:48:28 GMT
Organization: University of California; Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: hobbes.ucsc.edu


As luck would have it, the Santa Cruz County Symphony played the RVW
Tuba Concerto at the 21 Nov concert, along with a suite from Lou
Harrison's music for Jean Cocteau's ballet-with-words "Marriage at
the Eiffel Tower."
-- 
haynes@cats.ucsc.edu
haynes@cats.bitnet

"Ya can argue all ya wanna, but it's dif'rent than it was!"
"No it aint!  But ya gotta know the territory!"
        Meredith Willson: "The Music Man"
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: Mike_Quigley@mindlink.bc.ca (Mike Quigley)
Subject: Gould on LD in Canada = Not Cheap!
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 03:19:10 GMT

I was down at Sam the Record Man's in Vancouver today, where they have a
large selection of laser disks, usually at competitive prices. I just about
freaked when I saw the price of the 6 Glenn Gould laser disks released by
Sony -- $389! And this was a discount, the usual price is $429!!!!!!! On top
of this I would have to pay 6% provincial and 7% federal tax. This is really
unbelievable. I can order these from Sight and Sound in Massachussets, the
cost is $29.95 each and I get a 15% discount. I figured with all the tax,
postage, exchange and other rake-offs, my total price getting it from the
States would be about $37.50 per disc, probably about half of the Canadian
price. What a burn!
From: elkies@ramanujan.harvard.edu (Noam Elkies)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Tubae? Tubim? Tubot?
Date: 22 Nov 92 03:48:45 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1992Nov21.224846.17674
Organization: Harvard Math Department

In article <RLK.92Nov21115832@underprize.think.com>
rlk@underprize.think.com (Robert Krawitz) writes:
>In article <3940058@hpcc01.corp.hp.com>
zornow@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Claudia Zornow) writes:
>
>   jim@fuji.eng.yale.edu (James J. Szinger) writes:
>
>   > I still think that 'euphonia' is more euphemistic.

[probably "euphonic" is what was meant...]

>   >By the way,  what the plural of 'tuba'?  'Tubae'?
>
>   Tubim?
>
>Tubot?

Indeed, Hebrew borrows the word "tuba" to name the instrument, and
construes it as grammatically feminine, together with the >99% of
Hebrew nouns ending in "a".  So the plural is formed by replacing
the terminal "a" with "ot", whence "tubot".  (Yes, there are a few
exceptional nouns like "yona" (`dove'[fem.]), plural "yonim"...)

--Noam D. Elkies (elkies@math.harvard.edu)
  Dept. of Mathematics, Harvard University
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: davisonj@en.ecn.purdue.edu (John M Davison)
Subject: Gounod recording opinions wanted
Summary: looking for "best" CD recordings
Keywords: Gounod
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 19:41:35 GMT


        I'm looking for opinions on various CD recordings of pieces in Gounod's
repertoire: would anyone care to proffer some opinions?


-- 
John Davison
davisonj@ecn.purdue.edu
From: rk2o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Robert William Kollar)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Steve Reich's "Different Trains"
Date: 23 Nov 92 02:07:43 GMT
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

Different Trains is a hard piece to listen to at times , but , in my
opinion , it takes a few listenings to get used to.  At first when I
heard this piece , I hated it.  I believe this is due to many factors. 
I did not uderstand the concept of the piece , I could not stand the
speech samples , and Electric Counterpoint took most of my interest. 
But soon I decided to give it a chance and I liked what I heard. The
rythems are very complex and the way they compliment each other is
beautiful.  I read the liner notes and found out the concept of the
piece , It's a story.  If you follow the speech phrases , they link
together to form sentences , a story is developed , and a better
understanding of the piece is attained , for me anyway.  The last
movement , After the War , is beautiful.  The story , the rythems , the
way the instruments work with the speech samples , it all just blows me
away.  I have to admit , I just really like this piece.  It reminds me ,
in concept , of Shostakovich's 13'th.  I don't know , let me know what
you think.
Oliver Kollar  
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: rwh@visual.com (Rob Holzel)
Subject: re: Tchaikovsky's Piano Concerto No. 1
Organization: Visual
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 19:39:45 GMT

In article <14638.2b011384@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu> egras@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu writes:
>
>
>	While we're asking about best Tchaikovsky recordings, would anyone
>like to recommend a favorite recording of his Piano Concerto No. 1 in Bb minor?

Martha Argerich with Dutoit on DG.  I'm kinda surprised this hasn't been
mentioned yet.  Last time this question came up, it prevailed as the
best in a wide field of contenders.


Rob


Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: dbrooks@osf.org (David Brooks)
Subject: Re: Tubas (was Re: Euphoniums (was: Tubas))
Organization: Open Software Foundation
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 16:44:25 GMT

In article <1992Nov19.142301.22420@osf.org>, coren@speed.osf.org (Robert Coren) writes:
|> In article <DBROOKS.92Nov18231921@penge.osf.org>, dbrooks@penge.osf.org (David Brooks) writes:
|> > The Italian plural, Tube.
|> 
|> If you feel like sounding pretentious. (Something I know David would
|> never want to do.)

Moi?  I also can spell opheclede.

|> What's a "frustra"?

A slapstick (in Britain, a whip).  I tried to come up with a joke about the
sound of a one-arm slapstick, but in vain.
-- 
David Brooks					dbrooks@osf.org
Open Software Foundation			uunet!osf.org!dbrooks
Allberall und ewig blauen licht die Fernen!  Ewig... ewig... earwig... O!
From: mchenry@guvax.acc.georgetown.edu
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Steve Reich's "Different Trains"
Date: 23 Nov 92 11:12:50 -0500
Distribution: world
Organization: Georgetown University

In article <Mf43njq00WBLE4IFcC@andrew.cmu.edu>, rk2o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Robert William Kollar) writes:
> Different Trains is a hard piece to listen to at times , but , in my
> opinion , it takes a few listenings to get used to.  At first when I
> heard this piece , I hated it.  I believe this is due to many factors. 
...
I want to add my voice to those that like "Different Trains." I found
its conceptualization to be utterly fresh. It is a bold statement that
is in tune with the forefront of modern art, accessible to most ears,
about a subject matter worth exploring, and executed in a superb fashion.
I therefore find it to be of the highest artistic merit. I also enjoy 
listening to it, which is a bonus. 

Bill McHenry                   |Those who do not hear the past works
mchenry@guvax (bitnet)         |are condemned to recompose them....
mchenry@guvax.georgetown.edu   |                 -me

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical