HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: joni@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (joni.dunlap)
Subject: Re: Fear
Organization: AT&T
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 19:30:08 GMT

In article <22097@venera.isi.edu> esteward@bbseg5.isi.edu (Elaine Steward) writes:
>Joanne Eglash writes that she"sometimes feel[s] that whatever our  
>addictions, they are like a form of armour that protect us from feeling  
>the fear."  
>
>CAN I EVER IDENTIFY!  3+ years ago, when I gave up my most troublesome  
>addiction, I began to feel my fears for the first time.  I continued to  
>smoke, however, until November 91.  If I thought I had felt fear in the  
>preceeding 2 1/2 years, I was kidding myself!  
>

I guess this is kind of what I wanted out of the post I had about 
continuing smoking after years in the program. I know for me I used 
cigarettes like any other drug that I used. In fact I used it more often
and it was readily available.  I can remember almost always grabbing for
a cigarette whenever I was in a situation I didn't like or unable to handle
some feeling that I didn't like.

I also find that the more I take away my addictions the scarrier it
gets. I have given up drugs, alcohol (complusive sex and relationships)
cigarettes and now I'm trying the biggie food. As each of these were taken
away I felt like I was starting over in the program. I would have the
ups and downs just like when I first came in, only better because I had
better tools.


>I think the main thing which keeps me in denial about my fears (and  
>therefore, from dealing with them) is my shame.  There is a part of me  
>which cannot let go of the idea that I know where I should be in my growth  
>and development.  This belief allows me to think that "it's immature, " or  
>"it's unacceptable" for me to be afraid of X.  (X is mostly people)
>

I know how you feel. There are times when I can't voice my fears also.
It also stems from shame in which how could I have any justification
for feeling this way. 

It seems that all of my fears are still there if I allow them to fester and
grow. The only thing that can stop the fear is for me to consciously
stop this process by having faith that my HP will look out for me.

Fear is the absence of faith.

F-ck
Everything
And
Run

There is nothing to fear but fear its self.

Joni :)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: maxwell@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Mark Story)
Subject: 3 days!
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 08:08:27 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO  80523

Considering what happened to me today, I don't know how I managed it.

Mark

Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: daalrutz@violet.uwaterloo.ca (deb alrutz)
Subject: i do it for myself
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 16:04:47 GMT

To ..I do it for myself:
I found out that to be powerless was to accept the fact that I couldn't do
anything to stop the alcoholics in my family from drinking. I thought I
could. I tried everything even pretending I didn't care. It wasn't until I
was in my thirties that I went to ACOA meetings and Alanon that I discovered
that I cared. 
As far as turning over control to a higher power- well here's a story: My
best friend and lover was diagnosed with cancer and given less than nine
months to live. I couldn't do anything about it except love every moment that
was left. I know that there's a higher power because I had the most
incredible nine months of my life. I stopped controlling and turned things
over to love.
In the twelve step programs for me I feel like I don't give up anything but I
gain myself back without having to cling to the steering wheel, making my
shoulders and neck all tight; I just relax and enjoy the wind and the
scenery.Serenity-Suz

From: gcr@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (George Rieck)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 23:09:19 GMT
Subject: Re: 0 days (Was : 13 days)
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Newsgroups: alt.recovery

Hello Mark,

I find your message disturbing. Hopefully, the body of the message was
lost and not intentionally omitted.

If you have started to drink again, I am sorry. Your previous message indicated
a great deal of dispair and hopelessness. 

I wish I understood how you feel, but I don't. I cannot. I am not an
alcoholic - so I will never know what it feels like. I only can tell you
what I see happen to peole who drink. The only truly hopeless state
is a drunken one. If you do not drink you can be whatever you want.

I would recommend that you may have other issues to deal with beyond
the addiction to ETOH. Depression may be a serious problem, this can
be treated by anti-depressant drugs and therapy.

Here is coarse of action that I have seen work for several people. These
people now have >3 years of sobrity each and are tenacious defenders of
their recovery. They are making it, they are also making good lives for
themselves and for their families. I cannot say that this would work for
you, but you might just consider it....


Get sober - detox - use a treatment program if you can 21-30 days of intense
learning. Go on Antibuse. This may help you over the next couple of months.
Then get into therapy and on antidepressants if they are warranted.

Go to AA 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 meetings a week. Go to as many as you need
to make it. Also, get involved, get a sponsor, focus you hope on not
what's wrong with things from before, but what's right with what you
are doing. You cannot change the past, but you will make the future.

If you need a friend, I'm here, but mostly, I would say AA is here too. They
know more about what you feel than I can.

But the bottom line is you can do what you want. Nobody, not me, not
anyone can decide to do it for you, or make you , or .... we can only
offer a story, an ear, a shoulder, ....

I hope you decide to stop, it is worth it, life will be as good as you
decide it can be ...

George Rieck
.


From: kasey@trsvax.tandy.com
Date: 30 Jul 92 14:18 CDT
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: What is crosstalk?
Message-ID: <141600020@trsvax>
Nf-ID: #N:trsvax:141600020:000:237
Nf-From: trsvax.tandy.com!kasey    Jul 30 14:18:00 1992


What exactly is crosstalk? I attend ACoA meetings, but it is an informal
group of people that read recovery books, watch recovery videos, and discuss
them. We don't have a no crosstalk rule, so I don't exactly what it is.

Thanks,
Kathy

Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: moiram@sacajawea.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Moira Mallison)
Subject: Re: i do it for myself
Reply-To: moiram@csc.ti.com
Organization: Computer Science Lab, Texas Instruments
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 16:30:12 GMT

In article <1992Jul28.211752.17448@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov>, puckett@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov (Jim Puckett) writes:
>> 
>> uh - Robert, the _only_ place that I have heard that 'no crosstalk'
>> rule is in OA - and I have been to AA, OA, Al-Anon, ACA across the
>> country.
>> 
>> It is not, in _any_ case, standard. Go to central Texas ...

Well, I live in North Central Texas, and "no-crosstalk" seems to be
pretty standard around these parts.  In ISA/SIA/OASIS, it is a core
component.  It is part of what promotes safety in the group for
newcomers.  Safety is a huge issue in these programs, because many
times newcomers have not talked to anyone other than their therapist
about their incest.  

In my home group, one can ask for feedback and people can approach
them after the meeting.  Among those of us who have been around for
awhile, someone may occasionally have some feedback for me, in which
case they will approach me after the meeting, and ASK me if I am open
to feedback.  I then have a choice whether or not to hear it, and what
to do with it, if I choose to hear it.  This carries over into the
friendships that have grown out of the group, particularly when we get
into areas of conversation when it's not clear whether someone just
needs another person to listen, or wants something more.

Moira
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: puckett@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov (Jim Puckett)
Subject: Re: Addiction a disease? (not)
Organization: NASA/MSFC
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 17:15:23 GMT

mdcsc!ah@uunet.UU.NET (Alexander Herrera) writes:

<stuff deleted>

>So why call alcoholism a disease? The same reason we use the term heart
>disease. It helps us describe something in a couple of words that would
>take a book describe. (We have such a book BTW, :-) )

Boy, I'm glad that there's an Alex in the world, so he can say things 
sweetly in a page that would take me three pages of bitchin' 8-).

...Once upon a time, there was a big green thing in a field. All the people
gathered around, and said, 'Look! A big green thing in a field! It must be
a tree!'

	So they sat in the field, under the big green thing, and waited
for it to drop fruits or nuts. Nope, nothing happened.

	Then along came a feller and said 'Imbeciles! That's not a Tree,
that's a big green Buick!' and  climbed in and drove away.

(What's the point, Jim?) The point is, for zillions of years alcoholism
was called a lot of things, and we drunks died. Then Harry Silkworth
(MD) said, 'I think that it is a disease' and told Bill W. that and Bill
got sober and now I am able to live from one day to the next without
even getting arrested.

	a.Alcoholism is a disease.
	b.Alcoholism is _not_ a disease.

	People who believe (a) find an answer.
	People who believe (b) find a lot of arguements.


love and service,

jim p.
-- 
Jim Puckett    NTI    puckett@freedom.msfc.nasa.gov     
Huntsville,AL (205)461-4922  
This life is a test. It is only a test. If it had been a real life, you 
would have been given instructions....
From: rmann@ohmeda.com (Robby Mann)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: NORMIES
Summary: Question
Keywords: Normal Person, Not in a 12 step group
Date: 27 Jul 92 18:39:00 GMT
Organization: Ohmeda Monitoring Systems


     I have a question.

     Is there such a thing as a normal happy life?

---------

     Do normal happy people have a 12 step support group that they belong to,
or do they just live within a fellowship with the rest of the world.

--------
     I've been reading a book that says we can have normal happy lives if we
just do a few *SIMPLE* steps.  It also talks about a fellowship of people that
have a common bond, and a common solution.  But may have different backgrounds.

     Is this the difference between a 12 step support group, and a fellowship?

     And if the fellowship I belong to works on 1 mental obsession, and 1
physical craving in the beginning. Is this enough for me to work on in the
beginning?  


     Do I have to solve all my problems at once?

 ___________

     Do normal people think about this kind of stuff.



Rob


We are like the man who has a headache, and beats himself on the head with a
hammer to get rid of the ache!
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: suhre@meltami.dsd.trw.com (Maurice E. Suhre)
Subject: Re: Selfish program?
Organization: TRW, INC.
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 18:22:35 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.213215.2366@ctr.columbia.edu> weiss@leopard.cs.uidaho.edu writes:
 
>I get to stay sober if and only if that makes me useful to God and my
>fellow human beings.

Someone with more time than me pointed out that just by sobering up we
have improved the quality of life on the planet since we will be much
less offensive to those around us.  
-- 
Maurice Suhre
suhre@trwrb.dsd.trw.com
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: joni@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (joni.dunlap)
Subject: Re: i do it for myself
Organization: AT&T
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 18:51:15 GMT

>Bill H. wrote:
>
>> Today there is a twelve step program for just about any
>> adiction or life problem that I can think of. So, now that I think
>> of it, my answer is still the same. Do what it says in your basic
>> text (mine was a Big Book)

I agree with this I have a lot more problems than alcoholism. I have problems
with food, abuse, ACoA, and Co-dependency. I am truly being showed how to
work the steps in my life, for any circumstance, or situation that arises.
I have a sponsor who abstains from alcohol, co-dependency, ACoA
issues, and bulimia. How did she do it? Through the steps. So what do I
do about it? Well, I want what she has so I do what she says.

If you see someone in the program that has what you want you ask that person
to be your sponsor and to guide you through the steps.

>
>>> >I mean this posting to be a friendly one.  I just do not understand
>>> >how people with poor self-images and a devastating sense of
>>> >powerlessness (over the self, that is) can enhance the very crux of
>>> >their lives to seek recovery.
>>> >

I don't know a soul that has come into AA feeling good about themselves.
No where does it say that we are powerless over out selves. I am powerless
over many PEOPLE, PLACES, AND THINGS in my life but by no means am I
powerless over myself. That is the only thing that I do have contol over
and that I can change. 

Joni :)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: sjb@unislc.uucp (Steven Backus)
Subject: Re: good program
Reply-To: sjb@unislc.UUCP (Steven Backus,B2H15,4492)
Organization: Unisys, Salt Lake City
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 18:13:18 GMT

In article <1992Jul23.192448.17138@cbfsb.cb.att.com> joni@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (joni.dunlap) writes:
>I'm curious about what people think about if people, lets say with at least
>five years of abstenance from what ever, are still smoking cigarettes are
>truly working a good program? Tobacco is a deadly drug and smoking is an
>addiction.
>
>Comments?
>
>Joni :)

It depends a lot on you.  I got involved with AA because alcohol was ruining
my life.  Cigarettes are not ruining my life.  If you feel that cigarettes
are affecting you as badly as your drug of choice, then yes, you are not
working a good program.  If however, you are like me, having the devil's own
time not drinking, then concentrate on that aspect.  I consider that to be a
*good* program.

As I've heard many times in meetings, if you try to quit drinking, smoking,
over eating etc. all at once, you're setting yourself up for a fall.  I
think concentrating on the worst problem (alcohol in my case) is important.
Eventually I hope to get around to my other addictions.

I'm only 4.5 months sober, and only recently discovered this group.  I want
to thank all of you for being here for me when I can't make it to a meeting.
Together we may make it through this veil of tears we call life.

Steve (backus@math.utah.edu)
From: grubb@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Gary A. Grubb)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 17:43:10 GMT
Subject: Re: Not Smoking
Organization: the HP Corporate notes server
Newsgroups: alt.recovery

/ hpcc01:alt.recovery / debrag@mattys.EBay.Sun.COM (Debra Giberson) /  8:46 am  Jul 27, 1992 /

I now have 6 weeks (or 42 days) without cigarettes. I really think
I am going to do it this time!!

Debra
----------

Hang in there. I have been stopped for some months now myself. Good luck.

Gary G.
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: lisa lynne davidson <lldavids@copper.ucs.indiana.edu>
Subject: 12-step mailing list
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 19:06:01 GMT

I tried to send mail to get on the list but my mail got returned.
Please add me to the list.

Lisa
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: alawrenc@sobeco.com (a.lawrence)
Subject: Re: Addiction a disease? (not)
Organization: Sobeco Ernst & Young
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 08:00:55 GMT

In <9207280009.AA23651@mdcsc> mdcsc!ah@uunet.UU.NET (Alexander Herrera) writes:

    ... text deleted ...

>Is alcoholism an addiction? In some cases it is, and so they might fall
>into the model as outlined by the poster. Is it only an addiction? NOT!

    One of the best discussion I have heard on this subject was by a non
alcoholic doctor at an AA convention over 10 years ago when I was newly
sober.  The doctor was the medical director of a local rehab and had
decided to specialize in alcoholism early in his practice.

    He was very carefull to differentiate between the concept of physical
addition and the disease of alcoholism.  It is not unknow for someone
to become physically addicted to alcohol, to the point of suffering DT's
when it is withdrawn, without every abusing it.  One the other hand
the disease of alcohism presents and entirely different set of symptoms.

   The symptoms he gave for the disease of alcoholism are:

     1) A marked personality change when alcohol is consummed.
     2) An inability to predict the amount that will be consummed
        on any given occasion.
     3) Black outs as a result of drinking.

   Its interesting to note that he said nothing about the amount consumed.
For myself, I know I exhibited all three symptoms from the very beginnings
of my drinking.  Long before any problem was evident to myself or others.
-- 
On a clear disk you can seek forever.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andrew Lawrence, Informaticien Conseil           |  alawrenc@sobeco.com
3605 St-Urbain, #1605                            |  uunet!sobeco!alawrenc
From: puckett@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov (Jim Puckett)
Subject: Re: i do it for myself
Organization: NASA/MSFC
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 13:57:51 GMT

decio@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Gabriel Decio) writes:

>      That's pretty much like throwing the steering wheel out the
>window in the middle of the road.

Which makes plenty of sense, when you realize that you don't know how
to drive - and you look around you, and you see a lot of people trying
to drive, and they look really tense and have wrecks - and then you see
some folks riding down the road, with both hands in the air and their
eyes closed, and big smiles on their faces....8-)


>I mean this posting to be a friendly one.  I just do not understand
>how people with poor self-images and a devastating sense of
>powerlessness (over the self, that is) can enhance the very crux of
>their lives to seek recovery.

>Yours,
>Gabriel 

I fully believe that you don't understand, and take no offense. But you
obviously have faith in your ability to reason. But for us, reason is
not entirely dependable, though it emanate from our best minds (chapter
4, for you BBT's 8-)

However, it is not for us to understand the Almighty. I can't make Him
make sense. I only have to say, 'It Works!'. To see it, and to say that
it doesn't work, can get _really_ confusing!

love and service,

jim p.

-- 
Jim Puckett    NTI    puckett@freedom.msfc.nasa.gov     
Huntsville,AL (205)461-4922  
This life is a test. It is only a test. If it had been a real life, you 
would have been given instructions....
From: amigan@cup.portal.com (R Michael Medwid)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Please respond... Dan needs your love and support.
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 22:33:49 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: na

Responding to such strong feelings is difficult..seems difficult.  I want to
affirm the feelings and perspective..anger and rage have been important
feelings for me to contact and affirm as ok.  Putting the pain and anger
into scathing poetry has been a good start many a time.  The next step
has been to find people who can listen, who can "be there" for me.
Sometimes that's meant talking with twelve-step program people, with
a therapist or with the good (generally!) people of the internet.

Thanks for the poetry.  Keep writing, keep talking..it works.  

-Mike
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: gpotts@hebb.uoregon.edu
Subject: Re: Splitting alt.recovery
Organization: University of Oregon Network Services
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 16:21:59 GMT


	I'm new to this group so I don't know anyting about its charter (if
there is one) or its "group concience" but I like to hear all points of view
-- I never know from where some piece of wisdom will come.

	Many people find recovery outside of the 12 steps or find valuable tools
in addition to the 12 steps. I want to hear what they have to say.Ignorance
is dangerous; information only challenges ridgidity.

	I once heard that all you need to start a meeting is a Big Book and a
resentment. If someone wants to start and alt.12-steps or alt.aa where
things other than alcohol are NEVER mentioned (forgetting Doctor, Alcoholic,
Addict and the fact that Dr. Bob was a major dopehead, ableit prescription
drugs) then I have no beef with that -- I may even participate. But I hope
we can keep a forum where ALL points of view are heard.

	I certainly understand the importance of keeping an AA meeting and AA
meeting and an NA meeting an NA meeting and how the traditions help us do
that (I've served on and even chaired an NA regional literature committee)
but this newsgroup does not seem to me to be a "meeting" of any particular
fellowship and thus is more flexible. At my place in recovery today, I like
flexibility.

	So, I hope people keep posting what works for them. I'll take what I can
use and leave the rest.

--geoff
From: rdh@Veritas.COM (Robert Hartman)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Time for a FAQ?
Keywords: faq
Date: 27 Jul 92 20:35:11 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: VERITAS Software

In article <#!lmdkp.dhawk@netcom.com> dhawk@netcom.com (David Hawkins) writes:
>Well, certain threads on this newsgroup are starting to get
>repetitive.  Maybe it's time for a FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions)
>that would be reposted from time to time? 
>
>I could include my standard posting on the history of this newsgroup.

I think that this is a great idea!  I'd like to suggest that we
include a note about crosstalk.  Also, I'd like to see a
discussion of how cross-posting often leads to crosstalk.

Thanks!

-r
From: dpaxton@ut-emx.uucp (Debi Paxton)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: RECOVERY!@???
Date: 22 Jul 92 17:05:01 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin; Austin, Texas

In article <1992Jul21.005345.2966@csc.ti.com> moiram@csc.ti.com writes:
>>> one day at a time
>>> go to meetings, and don't drink between meetings
>>> live and let live
>>> work the steps
>>> expect a miracle
>>> Keep coming back, it works . . . . .
>
>I've read five or six answers to this question, and they all point out the 
>obvious bias in this newsgroup.  The assumption that when someone is
>talking about recovery, they are talking about AA.   
>Now it may be that Chris is an alcoholic, but there is no more in the
>request to indicate that than there is to indicate whether Chris is a
>man or a woman.

Well, if you just insert the word of your choice for "drink" it will
work for just about anything I know of.

And as for "how" to do it, well, no one can tell you that.  You have
to work the details out for yourself, and in your attempts you learn,
just like a little kid learning to walk.  

I've always hated the slogans, they seemed so simple, cliched and, well,
tacky.  The little signs on the walls, etc.  But they serve a purpose:
in figuring out how "let go and let God" applies to my agnostic self,
I've travelled miles and miles.  

Now, a *A bias, I guess we do have.  I would like to hear more from
people in other types of recovery groups.  But given the ratio of
meetings of 12-step groups to other miscellaneous types of groups in
my city, I think the *A-ers vastly outnumber the others.



-- 
"Never imitate consciously, but do not worry about being an imitator;
take pains instead to admire what is good."

Debi Paxton                             		dpaxton@emx.utexas.edu
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: moiram@sacajawea.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Moira Mallison)
Subject: Re: Addiction a disease?
Reply-To: moiram@csc.ti.com
Organization: Computer Science Lab, Texas Instruments
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 16:15:42 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.230834.9649@Veritas.COM>, rdh@Veritas.COM (Robert Hartman) writes:

>> So, although each drug entails its own
>> set of tortures, the overall recovery process is the same:

   ...

Great article, Robert.  I would add one more component that has been very 
important in my recovery process:

I acknowledge and honor the positive effects of the compulsive
behavior in my life.  It helped me deal with incredible emotional pain
when I didn't know any other way to deal with it.  If I had not eaten
to numb the physical, emotional, and spiritual pain of being
repeatedly raped by a man whose job it was to love and nurture and
protect me, I would have killed myself.

I am grateful that I found a way to live through that hell.  I give
thanks to my compulsive behavior, for it kept me alive.  Now, I have
better skills, and more support to deal with that pain.  Now, I make
healthier choices. 

Moira