HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mcdonald@aries.scs.uiuc.edu (J. D. McDonald)
Subject: Re: PROGRAM BLOAT - was Re: Ye Olde Secrete Screene Cheete Sheete  .....
Organization: UIUC SCS
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 13:26:05 GMT

In article <1992Sep4.124855.26468@walter.cray.com> huot@cray.com (Tom Huot) writes:

>In article <jcmorris.715622277@mwunix> jcmorris@mwunix.mitre.org (Joe Morris) writes:
>[Entire text about Easter Eggs & Cheats Deleted]

>This is just my $.02. It certainly is no wonder that this commercial
>software is so bloated and expensive, when totally worthless crap
>such as faces, fireworks, undocumented cheats are actually placed
>in these programs. Just think of it this way. Someone is actually
>getting PAID to do this!

>AREN'T THE DAMN PROGRAMS GETTING BIG ENOUGH ALREADY???

>-- 
>_____________________________________________________________________________
>Tom Huot                                      
>huot@cray.com 
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


I think that credit screens are Ok .... if these folks wrote it, they
should get their names in the actual file! 

But I **DO** strongly objsct to undocumented things, as, by definition,
unless you have some spy, they are useless. The credit screen should be 
documented. Perhaps a "credits" click box inside the about box.

AND, folks,  lets make it so that running credits does not stop
the multitasking!!! 

Doug McDonald
From: koos@kzdoos.hacktic.nl (koos van den hout)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: The need for an assembler (was: Favorite CPU)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 20:03:25 GMT
Organization: HIN / BBS Koos z'n Doos
NewsSoftware: Rnf 0.6b

biddy@ping.actrix.gen.nz (Bridget Ingham) writes:

>> obFACT: most PC's are *not* on internet.

>Most PC's are not on anything ....

Well they must be on something...

Since  DOS=HIGH

;-)

                                        Grtx. KH

/-- Koos van den Hout ----------------------------------------------- Sysop --\
| Student Computer Science (AKA HIO)       BBS Koos z'n Doos (+31-3402-36647) |
| Inter-: koos@kzdoos.hacktic.nl                 300..14400 MNP2-5,10,V42bis) |
| net   : vandenhout@ruumtc.tcu.ruu.nl          Fido: Sysop @ 2:500/101.11012 |
| Surfnet RUUMTC::VANDENHOUT                                                  |
Xref: sparky alt.folklore.computers:13677 alt.religion.computers:701 rec.humor:27970
From: cb@wixer.cactus.org (Cyberspace Buddha)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.religion.computers,rec.humor
Subject: Re: Assembly joke
Date: 6 Sep 92 13:52:45 GMT
Organization: Real/Time Communications

In article <1992Aug25.172534.6401@ceilidh.beartrack.com> dnichols@ceilidh.beartrack.com (Don Nichols (DoN.)) writes:
>
>	On first noticing a sign for "Assembly of God", my first though[t] was
>"I didn't know that the deity came in source form."
>

Having seen "First Assembly of God" in various places, I have to wonder...
Does the Second Assembly have to occur before the second coming of Christ?
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: rf@cl.cam.ac.uk (Robin Fairbairns)
Subject: Re: Computer relics
Reply-To: rf@cl.cam.ac.uk (Robin Fairbairns)
Organization: U of Cambridge, England
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 14:05:18 GMT


In article <1992Aug20.201535.13886@Cadence.COM>, phz@cadence.com (Pete
Zakel) writes:
|> In article <3356.168.uupcb@ssr.com> dick.zeitlin%acc1bbs@ssr.com
(Dick Zeitlin)  writes:
|> >[...]
|> >But why did IBM use the 80 column format for their cards??
|> [...]
|> As far as "why 80 columns" -- isn't that a direct result of 80 columns being
|> a standard width typewriter (or teletype?) line?

IBM cards are in a long line of descent; Babbage, too, wanted to use
punched cards - he had the idea from Jacquard, who used them to
control looms.  IBM cards' immediate predecessors were those for
Hollerith machines (of course), which predate teletypes by a
considerable amount.  (Typewriters are a much more variable feast, and
always have been.)
--
Robin (dump Brian Kay) Fairbairns                    rf@cl.cam.ac.uk
U of Cambridge Computer Lab, Pembroke St, Cambridge  CB2 3QG, UK
[Finally back in work - what a relief!]
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: pt@geovision.gvc.com (Paul Tomblin)
Subject: Re: The third variable.
Reply-To: pt@geovision.gvc.com
Organization: Not officially GeoVision Systems Inc., Ottawa, Ontario
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 16:35:13 GMT

mjg51721@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Michael James Gebis) writes:

>Alright....the first variable is foo, and the second variable is bar.  What
>is the third?  Is is sna -->sna foo bar, or is it toe -->toe foo bar?  Is
>it something else?  Does anyone have any other creative variable names?

It's "fubar" of course.  I always thought the hierarchy of meaningless
variables was:
foo
bar
fubar
baz
bletch
barf

-- 
Paul Tomblin, pt@geovision.gvc.com or {uunet,revcan}!geovision!pt
(This is not an official opinion of GeoVision Systems Inc.)
In our innermost soul, we are children and remain so for the rest of our lives
    --  Sigmund Freud
Xref: sparky alt.folklore.computers:13882 comp.human-factors:2194 comp.misc:3677 comp.programming:2590
From: jgk@osc.COM (Joe Keane)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.human-factors,comp.misc,comp.programming
Subject: Re: Indentation
Summary: Automatic indentation is nice.
Keywords: tab
Date: 8 Sep 92 19:47:59 GMT
Reply-To: Joe Keane <jgk@osc.com>
Followup-To: alt.folklore.computers
Organization: Versant Object Technology, Menlo Park, CA
Weather: sunny, high 88, low 55
Moon-Phase: waxing gibbous (91% of full)

In article <1992Sep2.122451.16343@kth.se> krona@cyklop.nada.kth.se (Kjell
Krona) writes:
>In several programming environments on the Macintosh, the code is
>indented acccording to its scope automatically. In HyperTalk, the
>programming language of HyperCard, the editor indents the code when
>the tab key is pressed. This immediately shows up any mistakes in
>the scope logic, and is very useful (at least for me).

Yes, Emacs does this for me too, when i write C or Lisp.  I think it's a good
feature to be able to compute indentation based on scoping.  On the other
hand, i think it's a terrible idea to compute scoping based on indentation.

--
Joe Keane, professional programmer
jgk@osc.com (uunet!amdcad!osc!jgk)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.lang.c
From: nelson@desktop.nsc.com (Taed Nelson)
Subject: Re: bogosort revisited (with source)
Organization: Applications Technology, National Semiconductor (Santa Clara, CA)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 17:51:51 GMT

If anyone is _really_ interested in slow sorts, there is an article about it
  in the most recent (I got it yesterday in the mail) ACM SIG CSE (Computer
  Science Education) Quarterly.  I haven't read it, so I can't comment...

Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: jch+@cs.cmu.edu (Jonathan Hardwick)
Subject: Re: The need for an assembler (was: Favorite CPU)
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 01:27:32 GMT

jimf@centerline.com (Jim Frost) writes
> "Joseph M. Newcomer" <jn11+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
> >(and before you start shouting "640K turkey machine", remember that
> >a nontrivial performance problem in most modern machines is still the
> >impact of the working set on the paging traffic, or at least it was on
> >my 32MB RS6000)
> 
> Yea, but a lot of that's because of IBM's great skill in VM management
> and their nifty tightly-coded kernel.
> 
> Please read this with the utmost sarcasm, and remember that it is my
> own opinion (not that of my company or anyone else) after more than
> two years of battling with AIX.
> 
> I never could understand why the machine thrashes when the entire job
> set is smaller than available real memory.

Because if it didn't, the RS6000's would compete with IBM low-end
minicomputers.  Surely after two years you know about the wonderful
world of IBM product-positioning?  If a revolutionary (for IBM...) new
level of performance is introduced, it has to be limited in some way
in order not to grow out of its pre-ordained market niche.  They have
done a particularly good job on the RS6000, which *seems* to be a fast
machine when you look at little benchmarks, but shudders to a halt
when you actually try doing Real Work (tm) on it, as you found out.

Jonathan H.
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.unix.misc
From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Subject: Re: The need for an assembler (was: Favorite CPU)
Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 02:16:44 GMT

In article <1992Sep8.093928.27457W@lumina.edb.tih.no> ketil@edb.tih.no (Ketil Albertsen,TIH) writes:
>
>
>Say, why don't we all switch to Turing machines, to get this discussion
>over with? Turing machine code is the most portable there is, and I'll
>bet Mr. Lasner has truckloads of paper tape in his back room, so
>computing resources should be abundant...
>
>
>Ketil Albertsen
>
>

It's inappropriate posts such as this one that make a mockery of this 
discussion.  Between all of the non-responsive and foolhardy ones, the
bandwidth ratio of non-useful to useful is approaching infinity.  You can
also include posts such as this followup pointing it out brought on by the
necessity of a response.  There's an old and very "adult" adage to follow:

If you have nothing useful to say, say nothing.

cjl
From: grnbrg@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Brian Greenberg)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Need IBM=It's Broke, Man expansions for COBOL.
Date: 14 Sep 92 15:04:13 GMT
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada


Anybody have any good, nasty expansions for COBOL?

Need it for a class in programming.

(Note that I didn't use 'COBOL' and 'programming' in the same sentence.

Oops.

Brian.
-- 
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ grnbrg@ccu.umanitoba.ca       +          Computer Services            +
+    Brian Greenberg            +    OLC Installation & Maintenance     +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+    Let's face it, WYSIWYG is just another hype word that should be    +
+    categorized with "powerful", "easy-to-use", and "Version 2.0"      +
+						     -- Brian E. Travis +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
From: IQTI400@INDYCMS.IUPUI.EDU (macphil)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: The need for an assembler (was: Favorite CPU)
Date: 4 Sep 92 22:19:44 GMT
Organization: IUPUI

In article <18664iINNecd@rodan.UU.NET>
avg@rodan.UU.NET (Vadim Antonov) writes:
 
>I *never* heard of any software project which can be implemented
>only by brute-force efforts of zillions of underqualified programmers
>under guidance of stacked layers of managers which never understood
>what their subordinates do.
 
>Want examples? Look at IBM.
 
I have to disagree a little /c this...IBM has not ever been known for
software quality or efficiency.  They've traditionally been known for
being iron salesmen.  And know, after all of these years, people are
working to get more out of their current machine instead of buying
a larger machine.  For years, IBM software has run slow & clunky
and other companies, realizing this, made (and still make) their
$$$$ compensating for this.
 
Unfortunately, IBM is using the same people who wrote the molasses
code to direct those who will (or are attempting to) write code that
has to work well and quick, or worse, the same people who've written
the slow stuff are being retooled to write code that matters?
 
If those people were capable of writing good code before, they would have.
 
In that regard, they've painted themselves in a corner.
 
Xref: sparky alt.folklore.computers:13622 comp.lang.c:13253
From: ark@alice.att.com (Andrew Koenig)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.lang.c
Subject: Re: bogosort revisited (with source)
Date: 4 Sep 92 13:04:12 GMT
Article-I.D.: alice.23629
Reply-To: ark@alice.UUCP ()
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Murray Hill NJ

In article <1992Sep2.175607.23225@grebyn.com> richk@grebyn.com (Richard Krehbiel) writes:

> In alt.folklore.computers, there has been a discussion of the worst
> possible sorting algorithm, which has been called "bogosort".

> My interpretation of the algorithm is this: Exchange two randomly
> chosen elements of the array to be sorted.  Check to see if the array
> is in order.  Iterate until done.

It is possible to do ***much*** worse than that.
-- 
				--Andrew Koenig
				  ark@europa.att.com
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.religion.computers,rec.humor
From: dasher@well.sf.ca.us (D Anton Sherwood)
Subject: Re: Assembly joke
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 21:39:11 GMT

In article <1992Aug25.172534.6401@ceilidh.beartrack.com> dnichols@ceilidh.beartrack.com (Don Nichols (DoN.)) writes:
>
>	On first noticing a sign for "Assembly of God", my first though[t] was
>"I didn't know that the deity came in source form."

ask Thom Digby some time about assembler religions vs compiler religions.
-- 
Anton Sherwood *\\* dasher@well.sf.ca.us *\\* +1 415 664 2229
Libertarian candidate for California Assembly, 12th district
Opinions mine, but available for lease at easy terms.
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.lang.c
From: richk@grebyn.com (Richard Krehbiel)
Subject: Re: bogosort revisited (with source)
Organization: Grebyn Timesharing
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 11:11:07 GMT

In article <1992Sep6.023647.1872@smds.com> rh@ishmael.UUCP (Richard Harter) writes:
>In article <Bu41Lu.IKB@news.cso.uiuc.edu> gordon@osiris.cso.uiuc.edu (John Gordon) writes:
>>>>> In alt.folklore.computers, there has been a discussion of the worst
>>>>> possible sorting algorithm, which has been called "bogosort".
>>
>>>>> My interpretation of the algorithm is this: Exchange two randomly
>>>>> chosen elements of the array to be sorted.  Check to see if the array
>>>>> is in order.  Iterate until done.
>
>It seems to me that introducing random chance is cheating; one can make
>the time to sort as long as you please.  For example, given N elements
>divide the sky up into N*(N-1)/2 sectors.  Do an exchange on the pair
>corresponding to the first sector in which a supernova is observed.

If you would send me the equipment necessary to detect these
phenomena, I'll be glad to give it a try!

-- 
Richard Krehbiel                                 richk@grebyn.com
OS/2 2.0 will do for me until AmigaDOS for the 386 comes along...
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Renumbering BASIC programs (was Re: Branching in HLL vs. Assembler)
From: don@zl2tnm.gen.nz (Don Stokes)
Date: 8 Sep 92 08:02:47 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Wolery

jeremy@sw.oz.au (Jeremy Fitzhardinge) writes:
> Ob brain twitch:  how can
> 1000 LET N=1000+A*1000
> be made to use less memory on a ZX Spectrum?

1000 LET N=VAL("1000*A*1000")

(Numeric constants were stored in _both_ binary and text formats in memory,
so putting it in a string saves five or six bytes per constant, at the
expense of execution time...)

Do I win?

--
Don Stokes, ZL2TNM (DS555)                        don@zl2tnm.gen.nz (home)
Network Manager, Computing Services Centre            don@vuw.ac.nz (work)
Victoria University of Wellington, New Zealand              +64-4-495-5052
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: draper@ais.org (Patrick Draper)
Subject: Re: PROGRAM BLOAT - was Re: Ye Olde Secrete Screene Cheete Sheete  .....
Organization: UMCC
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 05:44:23 GMT

In article <Bu8pou.M1E@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib) writes:
>Here's a neat undocumented feature:
>
>If you are running Novell Netware and Windows 3.1 create a file 
>called netware.ini and include these two lines:
>
>[Options]
>
>NetWareHotKey=1
>
>
>Restart Windows (make sure your netware shell is loaded) and press
>F6.
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Iskandar Taib                          | The only thing worse than Peach ala
>Internet: NTAIB@SILVER.UCS.INDIANA.EDU |    Frog is Frog ala Peach
>Bitnet:   NTAIB@IUBACS                 !

What does it do? I don't have the stuff to check this out!!!!!


------------------////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\------------------
| Patrick Draper           Disclaimer:  I can't control my fingers,        |
| draper@umcc.ais.org                   I can't control my toes! - Ramones |
| University of Michigan Computer Club                                     |
NO CARRIER                     We are a nation of laws, not people         |
------------------\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\////////////////////------------------
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: rmtodd@servalan.servalan.com (Richard Todd)
Subject: Re: Renumbering BASIC programs (was Re: Branching in HLL vs. Assembler)
Organization: Ministry of Silly Walks
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 05:09:26 GMT

jimf@centerline.com (Jim Frost) writes:
>I could see his BASIC being from the TRS 80 I or II (both of which had
>RENUM if I remember right) but it certainly wasn't Applesoft; you

Not the TRS-80 Model I (either Level I BASIC or Level II BASIC, nor any version
of Disk BASIC I ever saw from Tandy) as shipped from Tandy/Radio Shack.  
Some third parties did have addons to the BASIC interpreter to add RENUM 
(in addition to other things), notably Apparat as part of their NewDOS+ 
package, but I don't believe it ever came standard from RS.

Anyone besides me remember NewDOS+ and its successors NEWDOS/80 v1 and v2)?
Started out as an attempt to patch some of the more egregious bugs in
TRS-DOS v2.1 (and there were a *lot* of egregious ones, such as the failure
to have the clock interrupts turned off during the floppy sector I/O 
code (!)), and ended up as a wholesale rewritten replacement OS for the 
TRS-80 Model I/III with enhancements and extra utility packages that was
to many users (including me) far more attractive than the Radio Shack 
TRSDOS, supporting such enhancements as DSDD floppies well before TRSDOS
did.   Thinking back on it now, what Apparat sounds sorta familiar, sorta
like the history of the development of BSD as an alternative to AT&T 
Unix.  Fortunately for Apparat, Tandy never had the sort of lawyers AT&T
does, though....
--
Richard Todd	rmtodd@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu  rmtodd@chinet.chi.il.us
  rmtodd@servalan.uucp  New Improved Domain: rmtodd@servalan.servalan.com
"If your terminal is on fire, unplug it."  -- from an official USGS memo.

Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Subject: Re: The need for an assembler
Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 04:06:10 GMT

Matthews' example is very interesting; considering the assembly version is
FIVE instructions.

cjl

Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
From: elkins@daffy.cis.udel.edu (Robert Elkins)
Subject: Re: Sneakers
Organization: University of Delaware, Newark
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 02:56:48 GMT

I just saw the movie this afternoon.  Could be a vt52; at least they used 
an acoustic modem; usually Hollywood messes up pretty bad when it comes to
computer technical stuff.
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.unix.misc
From: mch@regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.dbp.de (Michael Hermann)
Subject: Re: The need for an assembler (was: Favorite CPU)
Organization: Technical University of Munich, Germany
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 10:15:34 GMT

peter@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) writes:

>In article <1992Sep8.075544.25771@news.columbia.edu> lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) writes:
>>The argument is now apparent.  This group's "skewed" nature is such that it
>>believes by egocentricity that it is representative of the world.

>Unfortunately, no.

I think this group is mainly concerned with anything that is
in some way "non-standard", either because it is outdated by
now ("old iron") or because most computer users don't do it
("hacking too long") etc.
As IBM-PC (clones) and MS-DOS (clones) are found everywhere
and most people use it, those topics are not of interest in 
this group.

>>In the
>>Real World (tm) the *vast* majority of PC's are running MS-DOS, DR-DOS, and
>>maybe Windows on top of either of them.

Agreed.

>Frightening, isn't it. If IBM had chosen ANY other existing operating
>system they might be running something real.

Why frightening? Few people have the money to buy programs
or computers which are of no use for them. So I believe that
for most MS/DR-DOS users and IBM-PC/AT owners this setup
does the job the want to be done. 

Why were the world happier if they would all use VMS and have
a VAX ?

>An *IBM-PC*. I have three "PCs": two Amigas (a 3000 and a 1000) and a Mac.
>I don't have any interest in wasting my time trying to get that damn
>abortion that calls itself an operating system to do what I need. I spent
>several years on it, and that's enough. There are enough talented individuals
>out there willing to reinvent the wheel over and over and over again to
>ensure that the supply of MS-DOS software will never dry out, but that
>doesn't mean MS-DOS is anything but an obscene parody of CP/M, without
>even the excuse of limited resources to account for its essential barren
>nature.

>The green revolution has proved that with enough effort even dtrip-mined
>and poisoned deserts can be made to flower, but I prefer not to live in one.
					     ^^^^^^^^^^^^
Agreed. You prefer for your tasks Amigas and Macs.
I prefer DECstations or IBM-PCs. Most of the time I
prefer ULTRIX or Linux and sometimes MS-DOS. Other
people (obviously a lot) can do their jobs with
MS/DR-DOS only. They prefer IBM/PCs and MS/DR-DOS.

Most users I know don't care about the deficiencies
their hardware & software (ISA, DOS) certainly has,
as long as they get their job done w/o hassle. 

Michael Hermann
mch@rendite.regent.e-technik.tu-muenchen.de
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: ericj@eskimo.celestial.com (Eric Jorgensen)
Subject: Re: You know when you're hacking too long when...
Organization: -> ESKIMO NORTH (206) For-Ever <-
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 08:33:21 GMT

sgcclmj@citec.oz.au (Liz Jones) writes:
>    even worse:
>       in hand-written stuff, showing mud-emotions...
>    like *grin*
>    *smile*
>     etc...

How about writing (hand-written) ':)' at the end of sarcastic items (yes,
sideways)?

Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.unix.misc
From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Subject: Re:  The need for an assembler (was: Favorite CPU)
Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 07:27:24 GMT

In article <Bu8qAr.AEM@hatch.socal.com> richg@hatch.socal.com (Rich Greenberg) writes:
>In article <1992Sep7.152753.9178@merlin.dev.cdx.mot.com> lezz@merlin.dev.cdx.mot.com (Lezz Giles) writes:
>
>>I'm sorry - I tried to run this code on my DECstation 5000/133 with Ultrix,
>>my neighbour's Sun, my pet Macintosh that I normally use for reading mail,
>>my Acorn Archimedes (precursor to the Acorn A4 for those of you who read Byte),
>>and the PC emulator on my Acorn Archimedes.  I also tried to run the
>
>Well, none of those are in the list I showed.  No surprise here.

Why even respond to this smart-ass post?  Juvenile minds on this group
are attempting to subvert a technically-based argument with either insulting
personal attacks or insulting infantile remarks.  If you have nothing useful
to say, don't say anything.

cjl
Xref: sparky alt.folklore.computers:13815 comp.dcom.modems:13188