HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: steve@crc.ricoh.COM (Stephen R. Savitzky)
Subject: Re: God and Science:  The Ramblings of The Nightstalker
Organization: RICOH California Research Center
	<STEVE.92Nov17171300@styx.crc.ricoh.COM>
	<1992Nov18.032801.16360@midway.uchicago.edu>
Date: 18 Nov 92 14:03:10

"You've just given me yet another example of moral relativism," says
the Mandelbear.  "you said, 'Apparently, the question of whether
or not they proselytize matters _very_ much to a number of outsiders
hereabouts.  Similarly, outsiders might care about the difference
between a sect which called for the deaths of heretics and infidels
and one which preached coexistence.'

"Now some people believe that, for example, proselytizing and calling
for the death of nonbelievers are *evil* (and in fact are the *same*
evil, differing mainly in the amount of threat applied to effect a
conversion).  In other words, we're not merely talking about
*distance* from some absolute morality, but *diametrically opposed*
positions.  This strongly indicates that, at least on some matters,
there is no observable absolute morality.  (You'll note that I say
*observable* -- there may be one, or several, but there's no objective
way to identify one.)"
--
\ --Steve Savitzky--  \    343 Leigh Ave   \ REAL HACKERS USE AN AXE!
 \ steve@crc.ricoh.COM \ San Jose, CA 95128 \     Free Cyberia!
  \ w: 415-496-5710     \   h:408-294-6492   \ 
   \_________________________________________________________________________
Newsgroups: alt.callahans
From: mss2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Michael S. Schiffer)
Subject: Re: Science and god:  Are they incompatible?  If so, why?
Reply-To: mss2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 07:20:39 GMT

In article <1e3lqaINNadv@gap.caltech.edu> lydick@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU writes:
>    The Christian god, on the other hand, may pose some problems.
>        The god of those who interpret the Bible metaphorically and who  allow
>        that  their  god  is  no  longer  in  the  miracle  business is not in
>        conflict, as far as I can see, with science.

>        The god of  the  Pentecostal  religions  who  is  omnipotent  and  who
>        intervenes  on  almost  a  daily  basis  in  the affairs of the world,
>        however,  is  another  matter.   Such  a  god  renders  the   universe
>        unpredictable.    Given  such  an  all-powerful  kibbitzer,  the  only
>        possible explanation for anything is "It's god's will."

	"I'd think there's a middle ground between `no longer in the
miracle business' and `intervenes [implicitly `intervenes by
detectably suspending natural law'] on almost a daily basis.  Consider
a simple universe: a pinball machine.  From observations of the
universe beneath the glass, one might be able to develop a
sophisticated science of mechanics.  But while one could develop some
hypotheses as to when the flippers would flip, it would be impossible
to reduce it to a science.  Too many factors intervene.  (We presume
that the player is unknowable except in his manifestations as flipper
movements; for this thought experiment we are limited only to the
world of bumpers, lights, balls, flippers, etc. which exist within the
limits of the pinball playfield.)  The vast majority of the balls' motions is
perfectly lawful (and almost perfectly Newtonian)-- but every so often
an unpredictable factor is introduced into it, at intervals which are
not known to the inhabitants (a ball can pass a flipper with no
action, or a player could nervously work the flipper when no ball is
nearby).  Is science possible within the pinball universe?"

Michael
-- 
Michael S. Schiffer, LHN, FCS	"Indeed I tremble for my country
mss2@midway.uchicago.edu	 when I reflect that God is just."
mike.schiffer@um.cc.umich.edu	 -- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on
mss2@amber.uchicago.edu		    Virginia (1784)
From: lydick@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Speaker-to-Minerals)
Newsgroups: alt.callahans
Subject: Re: science, religion, and spirituality
Date: 23 Nov 1992 20:24:35 GMT
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
Distribution: world
Reply-To: lydick@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <1992Nov22.190534.27240@midway.uchicago.edu>, mss2@quads.uchicago.edu (Michael S. Schiffer) writes:
=In article <1eogbrINNe08@gap.caltech.edu> lydick@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU writes:
=>In article <1992Nov22.113007.17652@midway.uchicago.edu>, mss2@quads.uchicago.edu (Michael S. Schiffer) writes:
=
=>=	"The operation, no.  But I'll point out that the _purpose_ of
=>=the program quite certainly and provably _does_ come from outside of
=>=the computer.
=
=>Actually, unless I'm mistaken, some AI researchers at Stanford have managed to
=>get something going that appears to choose its own purpose, using some sort of
=>evolutionary setup.  I.e., the (self-modifying) programs were given no
=>"purpose" by the programmers, they were simply started up.  Those that survived
=>showed behavior which, in humans, we'd associate with "purpose."  So it appears
=>that "purpose" may be an emergent property that doesn't require that big father
=>figure in the sky for its existence.
=
=	"Except that one purpose of the programs you gave is that some
=scientists at Stanford wanted to see what would happen if they created
=a certain environment for self-modifying programs.  If one of those
=programs became self-aware and asked, `Why am I here?' one answer would
=be `because the Computer Scientists wanted to see what would happen if
=they created a system with such-and-such constraints.'  And that's a
=purpose external to the sytem."

Perhaps.  But the AI people (some of them anyway) were rather surprised when
the programs started acting this way.  Is it possible to give something a
purpose accidentally?  Actually, since the AI people were hoping that SOMETHING
interesting would happen, I suppose one could say they did this, to use an
idiom "accidentally on purpose."
From: pechever@phakt.usc.edu (Paul Echeverri)
Newsgroups: alt.callahans
Subject: Re: An Introduction
Date: 20 Nov 1992 19:18:16 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: phakt.usc.edu

In article <20NOV199200171179@romeo.caltech.edu> dkrum@romeo.caltech.edu (Krum, David Michael) writes:
[Dave's intro deleted]
>"Hi, I'm David Krum, a Junior Engineering and Applied Science Major at Caltech.
>I specialize in computer science.  I have a Navy ROTC scholarship which means
>I am in the Navy Reserve, I get to wear cool uniforms, but I also get chewed
>out a lot, have lots of inspections, have to wake up at 3:45 in the morning to
>get ready, and drive the 110 freeway through Downtown LA at rush hour to
>get to USC where NROTC meets.  Fortunately, it pays all my tuition." 

Impu-Sebek snaps awake and hastily gets up.  An angry chord screams from the 
baliset as his hand brushes it in his haste.  After gentling the disturbed
instrument, Impu-Sebek rushes over to David and trades high fives.
"I'm at USC myself, David! Welcome to the Place!  When are you on campus?
Maybe we can stage an RL meeting..."
A pentacle sails over Impu-Sebek's left shoulder, landing with a soft _thunk_
on the bar.  "His next Coke's on me, Mike."
Impu-Sebek claims the rest of his pot of cocoa, which Mike has been keeping
warm for him, and settles down at the bar, much refreshed by his brief nap.
-- 
Paul Echeverri          | PGP key    | Smile! Cthulhu loathes you! This .sig
Insane by choice        | available  | sponsored by Campus Crusade for Cthulhu.
Brilliant by act of Pan | on request +---------------+"Society sucks.  Pay it
Poor by act of Congress | from: pechever@scf.usc.edu |no mind."--Cynthia Heimel
From: lydick@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Speaker-to-Minerals)
Newsgroups: alt.callahans
Subject: Re: Mailer Maliase (sic)
Date: 18 Nov 1992 18:31:21 GMT
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
Distribution: world
Reply-To: lydick@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <1992Nov18.171352.27616@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov>, rich@theophilus.msfc.nasa.gov (Rich Krum) writes:

=The Troll Mumbles--
=
="This is getting ridiculous--now posting gets flakety, chrochety, and wierd."
=
=Can anyone hear this?

Yes.

="Something appears to be busted somewhere, and I'd rater not say 'test'!"
=
=Hepl?

Well, this post made it through.

=--Da Frustrated Troll
=
="Something went <crash> in the night, I think---

Oh.  If it's only been less than a day you were having the problem, no reason
to panic.  If it happens again, you might want to tell your system manager.

Meanwhile, your system disavows any knowledge of you:
    Rcvd: 550 <rich@theophilus.msfc.nasa.gov>... User unknown
Since theophilus is up and running, you really ought to have a talk with the
system manager.  Sounds like maybe some sort of database got corrupted.
Newsgroups: alt.callahans
From: pope@physics.su.OZ.AU (The Nightstalker)
Subject: Re:  Science and god:  Are they incompatible?  If so, why?
Organization: School of Physics, University of Sydney, Australia
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 00:45:50 GMT

In article <1ek346INNemj@gap.caltech.edu> lydick@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU writes:
>In article <1992Nov20.023958.28654@data-io.com>, li@Data-IO.COM (Phyllis Rostykus) writes:
>
>	[120 lines of an excellent post deleted for the sake of brevity]
>
>StM points out, "Well, someone in here recently claimed that it seemed highly
>unlikely that there could be a pro-Christian post to which I wouldn't raise
>objections.  Well, that person might want to save Liralen's post as an example
>of the fact that he was mistaken."

"Quite possible, you just hate my guts eh?  Have a drink on me Stm, and you
can oush my guts to the side of the plate."


--

Mick Pope,                                          I      "On Christ the
Sir Frank Packer Dept of Theoretical Physics,   ----+----   solid rock I
School of Physics, University of Sydney,            I       stand, all other
Sydney, Australia, 2006.  (02) 692 3241             I       ground is sinking
                                                    I       sand." - C. Wesley
                                                    I 

And the comment for today is:  

          
"More things exist in Heaven and Earth than are dream't of in your
philosophies, Horatio."
                            --Wm. Shakespear
Newsgroups: alt.callahans
From: keulen@possum.csu.murdoch.edu.au (Mike van Keulen)
Subject: Re: OOOOPS - Forgot
Organization: Murdoch University
Date: 20 Nov 92 14:55:29 GMT

S.S.B.Glover@bradford.ac.uk (SSB GLOVER) writes:

>Niles E. VanDenburg (nev@Turing.ORG) wrote:
>: 
>: Awwww shucks - just when you got my hopes up that another bio/bot
>: person had walked in - oh well - I guess the astro people still have
>: us outnumbered.
> 

Rats!!!  We down under appear to be missing some posts - I don't know if
that's  'cos of network delays scarmbling the order of receiving posts, or
'cos folks are setting their distribution to other than "world".  Who's
the other "bio/bot" Callahaner?  I'm one too!!!

>Philosophy
>Math = Applied Philosophy
>Physics = Applied Math
>Chemistry = Applied Physics
>Biology = Applied Chemistry
>Sociology = Applied Biology
>Arts = Applied Sociology

I love it!!!  Except I kind of disagree with the Biology = Applied
Chemistry ... mine is done essentially without chem.  I'm an ecologist,
and I think I equate better to sociology.  I can havve meaningful
discussions about my work with my better half, who's a social
psychologist  :-) 

>To Classifications! (and does ontology recapitulate philology?)

>Flying through the air
>the not quite empty glass
>misses the grate and rolls.

>((come on! Are we all such good shots that we NEVER miss the fireplace?))

<<CRASH!>>  Nope ... but I think the astro people (or was it the
physicists?) have the fireplace wired to attract glass.  Works every time
for me  :-)

Splash!

--
***************************** Michael van Keulen *************************** 
* Snail: School of BES - Biology         e-mail: keulen@murdoch.edu.au     *
*        Murdoch University              phone:  ++ 61 (09) 360-2843 (work)*
*        Murdoch WA 6150  AUSTRALIA              ++ 61 (09) 417-3902 (home)*
*************************** "To Love is to _LIVE_!" ************************
Newsgroups: alt.callahans
From: jmpierce@whale.st.usm.edu (Jimmy Malcolm Pierce)
Subject: takeoff ! Re: dance for /*  
Organization: University of Southern Mississippi
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 09:10:43 GMT

In article <102586@bu.edu> mjmh@crsa.bu.edu (Michael J M Holmes) writes:
>At this, /* point his right foot forward, showing off his purple-
>suede shoes.  "Ta-daaaah!"
>
>"Uhm, acceleration?  It's been a few years since my last physics class
>(I remember trying to convince a TA that red shift plus blue shift
>equals purple shift) - but isn't acceleration the rate of change of 
>velocity with respect to time?"  /* looks hopefully at the crowd;
>he's never really liked pop quizzes.
>
>/* sticks a purple pinky into his left ear, and wiggles it around.
>"I guess so.  Wow, Linda's pretty picky about dance partners!

     "Well, not picky no. But you'll find out, " DJ.


     Linda starts dancing with Mike Holmes, as they go out the French Doors
into the meadow, they take off straight up ! { I did mention that
Linda is a Starship, did I not ? }  Linda, realizing that Mike Holmes
might not have known she is a Starship, levels off at 500 feet.

     Linda starts into dance routine one, to sort of loosen up..

     Catherine Wheel, Turn About Wheel, a gain in altitude is necessary,
   a sharp up turn to 3,000 feet. { Oxygen provided  ! }
A demi-semi-glide and revolve about 6 axis is accomplished. Then the Finale !

       wwwwhhhh
              o                    !     zoooooooommmmm ! 
               o                  h  
                o                h
                 o              s 
                  ooooooosssssss 

        Linda and Mike Holmes slowly return to The Place.

        Thank you for the dance Mike, " Linda.

        "Well Mike Holmes, How did you like it ? " DJ.

        "Here's a glass of ice water, " Robbie.

-- 
 Jim Pierce Bach. of Sci. in Applied Computer Science USM - Gulf Park Campus 
             jmpierce@whale.st.usm.edu  Disclaimer: Standard.
Newsgroups: alt.callahans
From: aaron@space.ualberta.ca (Aaron Humphrey)
Subject: Re: Science and god:  Are they incompatible?  If so, why?
Reply-To: aaron@space.ualberta.ca
Organization: University Of Alberta, Edmonton Canada
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 15:07:24 GMT

[Discussion of the Catholic Church's stance on sex, and wonderment at its
acceptance of Basal Body Temperature and similar enhancements of the Rhythm
Method, not to mention wondering about sex after menopause]

Alfvaen pokes his head into the conversation.  "What I remember from the
Catholic Marriage Course we had to take to get a Catholic wedding(my wife is
Catholic, I'm somewhere between agnostic and deist), is that while what the
Church wants is procreative sex within marriage, that >if< procreation isn't
strictly wanted in its uncontrolled form, i.e. if family planning is desired,
then you must use natural methods for it.  Because, you see, since God made
man and woman, any birth control methods in the human body are okay to use
for contraception.  One of them is the natural period of fertility of the
woman.  Another is--menopause.  As long as you're not using any unnatural
means of contraception, then sex is okay even if you don't intend procreation.
Of course, abstinence is perfectly fine from their point of view too.

"How they reconcile this, I'm not sure.  I think they're just trying to
slowly shift into a more reasonable stance, since not everyone wants families
of twelve these days.  And most people want sex.

"Another interesting thing I said concerned right vs. wrong.  Basically, they
said that the Church couldn't tell you what was right or wrong--you had to
decide that for yourself.  All the Church could tell you was what was a sin and
what wasn't.  So they didn't say that using unnatural birth control was wrong,
or sex outside of marriage.  They just said that it was a sin.  My wife uses
the Pill anyway..."

--
---Alfvaen(Looking for "October's Baby")
"Lucille was secretly thrilled when Norman sucked her toaster."
   ---B. Kliban
Current Album--The Adventures
Current Read--Karen Wehrstein:Lion's Heart
Newsgroups: alt.callahans
From: mwasson@minnie.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu (Michael Wasson)
Subject: Re: God and Science:  The Ramblings of The Nightstalker
Organization: University of Hawaii
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 01:21:55 GMT

>actions.  But, I consider the idea that, say, genocide or torture is
>merely a matter of different but equally valid moral standards to be
>an absurdity.  Many people find it possible not to find it absurd, but
>since that's the crux of why _I'm_ not a relativist (and therefore why I
>think there is a universal moral meaning in human actions)
>disagreements here don't seem to be able to go any further."

"Hmm.  One argument I've heard against moral relativism goes like this:

If I say, 'I believe the world is flat,' that's a *claim* that the
world is, in fact, flat.  You wouldn't say 'I believe the world is
flat but I'm wrong.'  Moral relativists seem to be saying something
quite like that in the realm of normative truths.  'I personally 
believe that X is wrong, though it may not be wrong for somebody else'
is just like saying 'I believe the world is flat but it may not be
flat for somebody else'.  By this argument, moral relativism is not
distinct from moral nihilism -- itself a consistent enough position if
you care to adopt it, but one most moral relativists would (I think)
shy away from."

Gecko-boy sips contemplatively from his Dos Equis.

"The scary thing is, I got this argument from my *mom*, who just
did her master's work in philosophy.  I myself switched out of
that major while the going was good.... ;-)"


Newsgroups: alt.callahans
From: jmpierce@whale.st.usm.edu (Jimmy Malcolm Pierce)
Subject: Re: The Difference Injure..
Organization: University of Southern Mississippi
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 22:38:08 GMT

In article <1992Nov17.000338.11749@data-io.com> li@Data-IO.COM (Phyllis Rostykus) writes:
>>In article <4f1fJb_00awNE3uJQt@andrew.cmu.edu>, Mark Beirne Lively <ml5a+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>>=Excerpts from netnews.alt.callahans: 15-Nov-92 Re: The Difference
>>=Injure.. Speaker-to-Minerals@SOL1 (398)
>>=> > Taldin writes:
>>=> > If I were taller and stronger then they wouldn't do that."

     When I was in the seventh grade, I was 4' 7" tall and I weighed 75 pounds.
The smallest person in that junior/high school. I got a lot of torment.
Did I put up with it ? Not always no. I attacked with great furvor...

>Being smaller and shorter than most males, I *can* get respect from those
>that try to insult me and are bigger than me through Joe's
>recommendation.  Meet them with grace.  Laugh *with* them, cause them to
>laugh.  Turn it all around and take self-respect *from* your differences.
>Don't know about you, but I loved Robin Hood, and I *like* his values and
>his actions, and would take some inner respect from even the thought that
>I was somehow *like* him.  Don't know if that helps, but I hope it can...

    There is a comedian who is over 6' tall. I think she said she is 
6' 3" tall. Her name is Carol. She was on VH-1's Standup Spotlight
run by Rosie O'Donnel{sp}. Carol said that when she was in college,
she got the impression that many guys asked her out so they would have
protection from muggers... Jim as himself.

-- 
 Jim Pierce Bach. of Sci. in Applied Computer Science USM - Gulf Park Campus 
             jmpierce@whale.st.usm.edu  Disclaimer: Standard.
From: mjmh@crsa.bu.edu (Michael J M Holmes)
Newsgroups: alt.callahans
Subject: What a literate group!  WAS: Re: Another introduction...
Date: 24 Nov 92 00:40:41 GMT
Organization: Boston University Center for Remote Sensing

/* is seated somewhat near the bar; he has a cocktail napkin
and a pen, and has been madly scribbling down names of authors 
and books mentioned in the 'First SF' and 'Eastern Relgions'
conversations.

"Whew!  Now there is a bunch of books that I want to either
read or re-read!  Some of them I haven't thought of in *ages*!"

"This is such a wonderfully literate group of people!  Thanks
Alfvaen, Abner, Windsinger, kitten, Liralen, Mary (H. Beam Piper! 
I *loved* those books!), Caithelin, and,
oh gosh I've probably forgotten a few!  (Don't take offense, I
just lost some posts!)"

"Actually, these conversations, an email from Alfvaen,
and some recent events, have gotten me thinking.  A dear 
friend of mine just had a baby girl, her first - and actually
she is the first close friend to have a child, so I and a whole
group of friends are doing a lot of thinking and readjusting!"

"She is a single mom, and we've been visiting, socializing, trying
to make sure she doesn't feel cut off - and that she has help
(or at least babysitters!) when she needs it."

"So, although baby Elizabeth Rose will not be reading for a while,
I was wondering what childhood books people would recommend that
she eventually have in her library!  Not just sf, but any type of
genre that people remember fondly!"

/* pauses to massage the writer's cramp in his hand.

"On another note - synchronicity in action today!  I had never
ever even *heard* of a bodhran until the subject came up here
in the place.  But a few moments ago, in a catalog called
"Music for Little People," I saw two types of bodhrans for sale - 
a larger one for adults, and a smaller one for children!"

"AND, more obscurely, a few pages later the catalog quoted
some lyrics from 'Would You Like To Swing On A Star?' - this
is strange (to me) because it is the song I have *not* been
able to get out of my internal mental soundtrack for the last 
2 weeks!!"  >sigh<

Returning to his list, some nearby patrons can hear the purple
guy humming softly to himself... "Carry moonbeams home in a jar..."


-- 
========================================================================
Mike Holmes       mjmh@crsa.bu.edu           "Happiness Will Prevail!"
Boston University Department of Geography (a truly GREAT place to work!)
========================================================================
Newsgroups: alt.callahans
From: trumpins@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Barbara Trumpinski)
Subject: Re: roseanne
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 03:32:02 GMT



>>kitten takes a drink of her beer...."to a time when having gay
>>characters on t.v. won't be a big enough deal to mention!"
>>
>>and the glass goes into the fireplace with a satisfying crash.

>Gecko-boy adds an enthused "I second that toast," and promptly
>dashes off several shots of JD. <crash!> <crash!> <crash!>

>"And," he adds, "earlier this year Phyllis Schlafly's son came out
>of the closet ... and took Dan Quayle to task for his 'family
>values' nonsense.  Maybe, just maybe, things are changing."

"as a native of illinois and a fighter for the ERA for YEARS, i was
delighted to hear this...phyllis should have practiced what she
preached, i guess."  kitten is suddenly wearing an old and faded green
and white t-shirt...

--
***************************************************************************
conan the librarian a.k.a. kitten           /\ /\  barbara ann 
"my life's a soap opera, isn't yours?"      {=.=}
                                              ~   trumpins@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu 
"love is the wild card of existance"
                          rita mae brown