From: bohdan@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (bohdan.l.bodnar)
Subject: Baidins vs Viznyuk
Organization: AT&T
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 16:01:18 GMT


>Subject: Re: Kravchuk's referendum

SV:
>>>There were never such country as Ukraine before communists
>>>have got a desire to create it. To represent the Skoropadsky
>>>and/or Petlura as Ukrainian "goverment" is the same thing as
>>>represent Kolchak's, Denikin's, etc "goverments" as goverments
>>>of Russia.

Rubbish. The freely elected non-Communist government of the Ukrainian
Republic (UNR) existed before any Soviet Ukrainian government, and the
UNR was even recognized by the Russian Soviet government, albeit briefly.

JB:
>>The above statements are false.
>>The Ukrainian government, for which Petlura was defense minister, was
>>democratically elected by Ukrainians and as noted in the previous message
>>the Communists only got 10% of the votes.  Viznyuk, you are failing to
>>acknowledge the seperate existence of three governments: Bolsheviks,
>>German and Russian military puppets and the native Ukrainian government.

SV:
>   On the contrary, Juris, I'm not only acknoledging the
>"seperate existence of three governments: Bolsheviks,
>German and Russian military puppets and the native
>Ukrainian government", but also a "separate existence"
>of a dozen more "goverments" on the territory of current
>Ukraine, of whom you probably forgot to mention. I'm only
>failing to see your reasons why do you consider only one of
>those "goverments" as "native". 

President Hrushevsky of the Ukrainian Republic was elected
in a free election. Thus his government had a reasonable
claim to legitimacy. His was the only elected government
of the three pretenders. Skoropadsky and Lenin were not 
elected. The miscellaneous gangsters, thugs, and freebooters
that floated around (Ukrainian, Russian, and others) were 
not governments and generally didn't pretend that they were. 
In particular, Makhno never claimed to lead a government 
(he was an anarchist after all). "Nativeness" has nothing 
to do with the issue.

>ask the "ukrainians" on this list, whether they will recognize
>the Petlura's "goverment" which conducted virtual genocide
>against minorities and directly responsible for killing
>of about 100,000 Jews (as was reported here), as "true"
>and "native" Ukrainian goverment ?

This question is very misleading. At the time of the crash of
the Tsarist Empire, and particularly during 1919, there were 
roving military units nominally loyal to all imaginable factions 
which were conducting attacks and reprisals on civilians.
Pogroms against Jews were conducted by units and individuals
nominally loyal to the Ukrainian Republic, Russian Reds, Russian
Whites, and others too. There is no doubt that at least some
pogroms were committed by each. During raids they often pretended 
to be somebody they were not, and since everybody was using mixed
uniforms and equipment seized from the Russian Imperial Army, 
Austria-Hungary, or whoever else, it was difficult to distinguish
them.

No one knows exactly how many victims there were, Jewish or Goyisch. 
The figure of 100,000 is probably an upper bound on the Jewish 
non-combat deaths, representing the combined total of murders by 
all factions. Legitimate sources have also estimated the figure as
low as 40,000, but it is always convenient to play up the numbers 
for dramatic purposes. In any case, *even one death is too many*, 
and 40,000 victims is just as disgusting and unacceptable as 100,000.
Another complication is that many people fell victim to epidemics,
and it is difficult today to sort out how many died of what with
any real accuracy.

As far as moral responsibility is concerned, the top leadership of 
all three sides (Ukrainian, Russian-R, and Russian-W) deserved some,
even though the decision to launch pogroms was generally made by
field commanders and not by the governments. Pinning all the blame 
on the UNR as Viznyuk proposes is preposterous. One should consider
some facts about the Ukrainian Republic's Ministry of defense and other 
government branches: (1) in view of the fact that a majority of Jewish 
voters in Ukraine voted for pro-independence parties during the election 
(60% vs 40%), there wasn't a motive for Ukrainian reprisals; (2) the UNR 
never issued orders to commit pogroms, at least there is absolutely no 
documentary evidence to support the contention, and anecdotal evidence 
from people including Jews who were high up in the administration suggests 
the opposite; (3) Petliura court-martialled and even executed those of 
his officers who did commit pogroms. Was he sincere in doing so, or was 
he double-crossing his associates in crime? The latter alternative seems
more far-fetched. 

Can one be as confident about the good intentions of the R-R and R-W 
leadership in Ukraine as of the UNR's? No. In fact there is evidence 
to suggest that neither the Ukrainian decolonialist nor the Russian
communist factions were most responsible for pogroms, but rather the 
Whites whom Jews were least likely to support. See for example Subtelny's 
"Ukraine: A History". (Aside: In the 1918 Ukrainian election, the 40% 
of the Jewish vote that went to anti-independence parties generally went 
to pro-Russian social democrats and some to the Bolsheviks, but virtually 
nil to neo-Tsarists and other reactionaries. It is interesting to note 
by way of an epilogue that an informal poll of Kyiv Jews in the fall 
of 1991, reported by J. Zissels, showed that Jews were even more likely 
to support Ukrainian independence than ethnic Ukrainians.)

Outsiders may now wonder why historically Ukraine and Ukrainians 
have been handed exclusive blame for the anti-Jewish pogroms of 1919. 
The answer is simple. The Ukrainians lost their war of independence, 
and the new Soviet overlords found it convenient to blame their
vanquished foes for all the evils that were committed by everyone. 
The lies over the last 70 years have been so persistent and so thorough 
that a lot of otherwise intelligent people have come to believe them.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet