Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 10:02:11 MST
From:         Brent Winiger <ABDWINIG@IDBSU.IDBSU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Queens school board

On Mon, 14 Dec 1992 23:50:17 EST Jim McIntosh said:
>
>
>I think I understand where you and Bryan are coming from, Brent, and I
>must say that I have agreed with the last post from each of you... and
>that sort of scares me. :-)

I think we all yearn for a better society Jim.  Our differences seem to center
on which ideals to sacrifice to achieve those ends.


>I wonder, though, about this concept that society is crumbling around us,
>and wonder if each generation hasn't thought the same thing when
>comparing itself with the previous generation. The past has a tendency to
>look rosier than it actually was.
>

I'm sure that is true.  But the statistics bear Bryan, I, and Ted (and whoever
else I've forgotten) out on this one.  Crime, abortions, poverty due to less
than moral lifestyles etc. are way up to historical records for this country.
It seems obvious to many of us that the policies being pursued to alleviate
those problems, are only making them worse.  Each day, I become more convinced
that man cannot solve his social problems apart from God.


>In the middle of last month you posted something from Cal Thomas saying
><deleted>  I have spent considerable time thinking about Cal's
>statement and I have decided that I disagree. The reason is that I can't
>quite pinpoint when the "Christian culture" was suppose to be
>flourishing.
>                        We can pick any time and find both good things
>and bad things about it. We may look back at the writings of Thomas
>Jefferson, see his references to God, and think that surely was a
>Christian Culture. We prefer not to remember that this man owned slaves,
>had a mistress, and who knows what else. We look fondly on the Founding
>Fathers, and try to forget that the U.S. Capital was built with slave
>labor.

Actually, I think Jefferson was more of a Unitarian than a Christian.  But he
understood the need for religion in society, and for the need to have
religious morals as the basis for our laws, government, etc.
     Jim, you are correct that man has never had a society that measures up to
Christian ideals.  As long as man is in charge, we won't.  And you're right
that society is changing.  But my perception is that we have been getting
further and further from those Christian ideals, which has resulted in the
higher incidence of major social problems we are seeing today than we did even
ten years ago.  (Yes slavery was a MAJOR social problem!)
     The other problem is simply that many of us Christians are starting to
feel much more discriminated against than in the past due to several reasons
already posted about in length.  Our biggest concern in that discrimination is
that the historical right that parents have had to raise their children with
the values they hold dear, is being eroded.  Naturally, we are alarmed.


>Frankly, I don't see our society
>as a "post-Christian" society, but rather as a "pre-Christian" society.
>We have a lot of work still to do building the Kingdom. If we get about
>it today (now!) we still have a chance. Let's not spend so much time
>looking backwards. The Kingdom is in front of us.

     I agree Jim.  But don't you think that its getting tougher to do that
with more and more elements working against us?  Most Christians feel their
first obligation is to raise their children to know, obey and love God.  It
really puts a damper on Kingdom-building when you're spending all your time
fighting to save your children from the anti-God World system.


>Jim McIntosh, SFO (jim@american.edu)

Brent