From: Tagi@cup.portal.com (Thyagi Morgoth NagaSiva)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Sex? Magic??
Date: Sun,  3 Jan 93 11:54:45 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world

93!01.03 e.v.


Peggy:

Maybe the people involved were not brainwashed and find the 
activity useful.  Do you suggest people only do things the Public 
would approve of?  


mark:

Not at all....which is likely why more mainstream groups (ie Thelema)
are essentially secret societies with fairly extensive initiation/grade
requirements. For the few times the rites are performed in a temple before
a congregation ALL present are prepared for the symbolism by knowing the
philosophy behind it.


Response:

Is there a group called 'Thelema' now?

Do social requirements such as initiation grades fit within the Law of
Thelema?  How?

Do the participants in most groups know the philosophy and significance 
behind the symbolism and rites to which they are exposed?


mark:

And (challenge me with examples if you think I'm wrong) the majority of
sex rites that would take place in temple between HP/HPS are between
individuals already in a committed relationship.


Response:

That depends upon the group.  Yes, in most groups I think you're correct,
but in 'left-handed' tantric paths there is sometimes practiced a sort
of 'random sexuality' in order to break our attachments to certain people
and certain relationships.  This brings up the infamous situations of
ritual incest and the like.


mark:

But what the author was postulating was that the rites used by this sect
are a form of mind control over the members....not in keeping with any
set of philosophy or codes.


Response:

I didn't interpret it this way.  I see how such shocking practices
could be turned, by unscrupulous and oppressive organizations, into
'brainwashing techniques', where it would be followed up with very
intense programming.

However, there is a very important philosophy behind some practices of
this type, as I mentioned above.  The idea is to break our traditional
cultural programming through challenges to our insecurities and the
direct practice of activities which our society considers 'taboo'
but isn't really intended to harm anyone (like listening to or watching
ANYBODY make love, let alone our own lovers).


Peggy:

The Public will probably think all pagans and mages are loons 
regardless of what they do (or don't do).  


mark:

So whats your point? The public at one time thought homosexuality was
strange and repugnant...but over time gays have received more acceptance
into the community of man than before.

As well, I'm sure Eastern religions were looked down on with disdain but
again over time they gained increasing acceptance in Western Society...and
there is no difference in the relationship of, say Hinduism to Christianity
than Paganism to Christianity. Over time Paganism will gain greater
acceptance and tolerance in society.

But the cause sure isn't helped by lurid tales of sexual brainwashing by
obscure cults...


Response:

I think her point may have been that what 'the public' thinks about any
practice or appearance which doesn't affect them adversely is largely
irrelevant and is not an important reason to condemn or criticize.

I note that you have previously separated 'Paganism' from 'Satanism'
and here you categorize someone's practices (on the information you've
presented to us?) as 'lurid tales of sexual brainwashing by obscure
cults'.  

I suggest that there is much more overlap between Satanism and Paganism
than may be apparent (followups to alt.satanism and/or alt.paganism
where Pagans will become VERY upset at such a suggestion) and that
without additional information about this group and its practice we
cannot really make a fair judgement about whether or not they are
either 'obscure' or 'brainwashing people'.  Perhaps you can help me
to understand you more by telling me how you'd answer these questions:

What is brainwashing?

Where does mysticism within an organization become 'brainwashing'?

What is sex magick?

How did you come to determine that they were engaged in brainwashing
 rather than sex magick?


Thyagi 
Newsgroups: alt.magick