HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.dipl-l
Date:         Sat, 26 Sep 1992 20:47:03 EDT
Reply-To:     Jamie <PL436000@BROWNVM.BITNET>
From:         Jamie <PL436000@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: PP revisited (oh no, not again!

Joshua,
I simple attack doesn't disrupt the convoy. The convoy is disrupted
only if one of the fleets is DISLODGED. In my opinion, it is this
fact that makes convoys something more than just a way for England
to get armies into Europe.

Mark and George,
I take your points. Unwanted convoys are pretty rare, but I see
that they do add spice to the game.
As for miswritten orders, I agree that it would be very nice to
have an option on JUDGE that accepts any orders whether miswritten
or not and does not inform the player who wrote them when they
are miswritten. But *I* am not going to be the one who tells
Ken to add it to his stack....

Now, Mark, to the nitty gritty stuff.

You're right, I had forgotten the exact nature of the Pandin Paradox.
But I can give another situation that illustrates the paradox equally
well, and in this situation the "no units move" house rule has a
different implication from that of the new official rule.

Here's the set up <thinking thinking thinking thinking....>

ENGLAND
A Edi - Bel
F Nth C A Edi - Bel
A Pic - Lon
F Eng C A Pic - Lon

RUSSIA
F Lon S F Nth

FRANCE
F Bel S F MAO - Eng
F MAO - Eng
F Den - Nth
F Hol S F Den - Nth

Is F Nth dislodged?  Is F Eng dislodged?

1. Under the old rules.... Edi-Bel cuts the support of Bel for MAO-Eng
if and only if F Nth is not dislodged. Suppose F Nth is not dislodged.
The Bel's support for MAO-Eng is cut. So the convoy by Eng of Pic-Lon
is not disrupted. So Pic-Lon cuts Lon's support of Nth. So F Den-Nth
succeeds (supported by F Hol). So F Nth is dislodged, contradicting
the assumption.
So suppose F Nth *is* dislodged. Then Edi-Bel fails to cut support of
Bel for MAO-Eng. So MAO-Eng succeeds, and the convoy by Eng of Pic-Lon
is disrupted. So Lon's support for Nth is intact, and that means
Nth is not dislodged by the attack from Den. That contradicts
the second assumption.
So F Nth cannot be dislodged nor can it fail to be dislodged. So the
old rules implied a contradiction.

2. Under the new rules, neither convoy (the one across Eng or the
one across Nth) can cut the support of its target (in the one case
Bel in the other Lon). So F Eng is dislodged. But F Nth is not.

According to the new rule, then, F Eng is dislodged by F MAO, which
is not the same as every unit staying where it is. Perhaps
Mark's house rules would be different for a case like this.

>My conclusion is either that (a) You quoted the rule wrong or (b)
>We don't agree what PP is.  (IMHO you're *WRONG*!!!!! on PP)

I was wrong about the canonical example. Damn.
What do you think of my alternative paradox?

>   That is a different matter. You're right, there are going to be some
>*important* implications, and I don't like them one bit! (eg
>FF(Bre) SF(MAO), IF(Naf) SF(Por)-MAO, EF(Lon) CA(Wal)-Bre, A(Wal)-Bre...
>this is horrible in the new rules!)

Exactly.

Jamie
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.dipl-l
Date:         Sat, 26 Sep 1992 15:54:13 -0400
Reply-To:     George Boyce <george@NR-TECH.CIT.CORNELL.EDU>
From:         George Boyce <george@NR-TECH.CIT.CORNELL.EDU>
Subject:      Re: programming the judge
              26 Sep 92 20:37:41 BST." <1890.9209261937@sun022.sun.leeds.ac.uk>

> Miswritten orders do not fool good players!

But certainly everything is not black and white. A good (espcially
computer!) player keeps track of *everything* and everything has
value. So he forgets to label his unit a fleet. In a "no press" game,
is that a hint that he doesn't intend to build any more fleets? Does
the adjuicator write in big letters HE HAS A FLEET HERE or does it
quietly allow the order (if it was not ambiguous) and let the casual
(sloppy) player start thinking it was an army?

Ane why can't a computer player be written to play in a casual
fashion.  Let it get fooled on occasion, etc. It takes all kinds.
Certainly we have some world leaders without a clue.

Not sure what my point is but if you see one, run with it. :-)

George
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Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 20:14:46 EDT
Reply-To:     Nick Fitzpatrick <nick@SUNBURN.UWATERLOO.CA>
From:         Nick Fitzpatrick <nick@SUNBURN.UWATERLOO.CA>
Subject:      Letter from Danny Loeb

I am preparing a new issue of EP, and cleaning house, and I
decided that this letter would be more appropriate for DIPL-L,
rather than EP (as the converstions all originated here)
--------
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 92 11:04:08 +0100
From: loeb@geocub.greco-prog.fr (Daniel LOEB)
Subject: Players from merlin - lets ban them

RE: MERLIN

I second the call to ban MERLIN.

Moreover, guidelines should be adopted on how and when to suspend and
to ban a particular person or a whole site.

RE: The North Africa/Spain discussion

Mark Nelson says:   "Games which allow A(Spa)-NAf are, of course,
variants.  And not particularly interesting ones at that!"

Yes, these are variants, but some might be interesting.
Take for example the LOEB9 variant. (I didn't invent, we played it at
my high school whenever there were too many players for normal DIP.)

Without any other changes, the Spanish player would be practically
obliged to attack France. That doesn't make an interesting game
(especially for the French player). Thus, a supply center is added in
Ireland. (France and Spain can get there just as fast as England can!)
And a land-bridge is opened up to North Africa, so that Tunis become
contestable.

In many openings, Spain and Italy make a deal by which Italy gets
Tunis, but his army in Piedmont supports Spain into Marseilles.

Often in the mid-game, the posssibility of retreating to North Africa
is overlooked.

The move to North Africa is done with a force of one less than normal
in order to give no incentive to avoiding an available convoy.

Yours, Daniel Loeb                              loeb@geocub.greco-prog.fr
HOME    150, cours Victor-Hugo; Appt D45; 33000 Bordeaux France
WORK    LABRI; Universite de Bordeaux I; 33405 Talence Cedex France
PHONE(H)+(33) 56 31 48 26, (W)+(33) 56 84 69 05, (FAX) +(33) 56 84 66 69
-------------
Mankind faces a crossroads.  One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness,
the other to extinction.  Let us pray we choose correctly.  -- Woody Allen
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.dipl-l
Date:         Sat, 3 Oct 1992 17:57:55 +0100
Reply-To:     Lars Henrik Mathiesen <thorinn@DIKU.DK>
From:         Lars Henrik Mathiesen <thorinn@DIKU.DK>
Subject:      EP Chapters on DIPL-L
              3 Oct 1992 09:25:53 PDT <9210031628.AA09655@odin.diku.dk>

Eric and Nick,

it is, of course, very nice of you to distribute your zines on DIPL-L,
but when two issues with nothing but a cute joke and last week's news
are reissued to this same list where they were taken from, I begin to
feel a little concerned for my archive disk. (Chapter 2 has not been
that bad, but it does include some matter from on here.)

Perhaps you could invent a chapter of EP that would digest DIPL-L, and
then distribute that to all interested parties, but not back to us?

Lars Mathiesen (U of Copenhagen CS Dep) <thorinn@diku.dk> (Humour NOT marked)
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Via:        UK.AC.LEEDS.GPS;  4 OCT 92 11:22:51 BST
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.dipl-l
Date:         Sat, 3 Oct 1992 19:21:38 BST
Reply-To:     amt5man@SUN.LEEDS.AC.UK
From:         amt5man@SUN.LEEDS.AC.UK
Subject:      Another Dippy song!

((Reprinted from Europa Express 14, May 1982.  Press to  1981AM))

Sang to the tune of "I came to Dance"

                            I CAME TO STAB
                            BY BRUX LINSEY

Well my ally kept tellin' me if I wanna be great
I'd better wise up and play my game straight
I said ``Listen here, fool, in order to survive
I've gotta be my dirty self, I won't play no jive.''

He told me he'd quit, I said ``Don't jump to conclusions
Maybe being straight ain't the right solution
I'm not Dave Crockett, but I'm full of deceit
I ain't no pacifist, I stab in the street.''

Well I came to stab, yes I came to stab
It's a Dippy romance, I'm havin' with my blade.

I took the matter up with a few million ``friends'' of mine
The supreme court of Dippydom is doin' just fine
Demanding a speach, they poured me a drink.
I'll lie and stab all night and day,
Just don't ask me to think.

Well I came to stab, yes I came to stab
It's a Dippy romance, I'm havin' with my blade.
=============================================================================

Retyped for email distribution by Mark Nelson
<amt5man@sun.leeds.ac.uk> on October 3rd 1992
============================================================================
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Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 11:45:00 EDT
Reply-To:     CLANCY@ITHACA.BITNET
From:         CLANCY@ITHACA.BITNET
Subject:      Merlin Ban

Here's another voice in support of the Merlin ban.  They infested "Gallon"
last year, causing great annoyance to everyone else.
--Stephen Clancy
Clancy@ithaca.bitnet
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.dipl-l
Date:         Sun, 27 Sep 1992 15:09:22 BST
Reply-To:     amt5man@SUN.LEEDS.AC.UK
From:         amt5man@SUN.LEEDS.AC.UK
Subject:      Youngstown

There have been something in the order of 14 diffeent
Yougstown variants, I am not sure which one Judge runs.
There are many differences between the different games.

If anyone is interested there have been several articles written
on the different Youngstown games, explaining the differences between
the different versions (although I don't think I have a copy to hand).

Although many of the differences between versions are very minor, the
latter versions tend to have more players added to them.  Unfortunately
whilst Youngstown is an easy variant to learn (and run by Judge) it is
not the best World variant for large numbers of players.  Mercator
and Colonia are better.

Mark
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Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1992 10:43:22 EDT
Reply-To:     Jamie <PL436000@BROWNVM.BITNET>
From:         Jamie <PL436000@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: TUC Rides Again

Oooooooh.

Jamie
(is that what you wanted me to say, Mark?)
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.dipl-l
Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1992 14:35:20 MST
Reply-To:     S9IK9@STARBURST.USCOLO.EDU
From:         S9IK9@STARBURST.USCOLO.EDU
Subject:      Question about the judge

how can you get a full list of what the judge commands are.  more specifically
how do you use the history command??

thanks

 mike magnuson
s9ik9@starburst.uscolo.edu
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Via:        UK.AC.LEEDS.GPS; 26 SEP 92 19:57:43 BST
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.dipl-l
Date:         Sat, 26 Sep 1992 19:52:11 BST
Reply-To:     amt5man@SUN.LEEDS.AC.UK
From:         amt5man@SUN.LEEDS.AC.UK
Subject:      PP revisited (oh no, not again!)

>   The American rules pose some problems for FTF play.  Are you going to insist
>that players list the convoy route for every convoy, and what are you going
>to do if they don't?  NMR the unit becuase it didn't specify a route?

JD> Actually, I don't know what the American rules say about UC. I do know
JD> the JUDGE rules. Sure, you can have players write down the convoy
JD> route face to fact. What's the problem? If they don't, you treat
JD> it according to house rules, same as you treat any ambiguously written
JD> order (eg, f mao - spa).

THere's no problem *if* you have this house rule.  I wonder how many
tournament actually have this house rule.


>The houserule
>fix was that "no units move", this has the same result as the official
>change yo've quoted.

JD> Actually, it doesn't.
JD> For one thing, in the Pandin Paradox, the result with the new
JD> rule would be that the attacked convoying fleet would be dislodged.

  We'll get onto your next (and linked) statement in due course.  My question
is this: are you sure that we mean the *same* thing when we say PP?

Here is the commonly used defining example of PP (taken from the AZ file):

FRANCE: F(MID) SF(Spa/sc)-WES, F(NAP) SF(ION)-TYN
ITALY : F(Tus) SF(TYN), F(TYN) CA(Rom)-Tun
ENGLAND: F(WES) &F(LYO) CA(NAf)-Tus, F(TUn) SF(WES)

The rule you quoted was: "convoyed attack on a fleet that is supporting an
action in a body of water does not cut that support"

Let's go through this example.  Italy convoys an army to Tun.  It can't cut
the support of the English fleet *BY YOUR QUOTED RULE*.  Hence the English
support from Tun is valid.  This means that WES has a support.  This meams
that the French supported attack into WES *FAILS*.  This means that the
convoy route is not disrupted.  This means that the convoy to Tus goes
ahead.  But *BY YOUR QUOTED RULE* the Italian fleet's support is not cut.
Hence TYN has a valid support, hence the French supported attack into
TYN fails and so the Italian convoy is not cut.

The net result is nothing moves!

My conclusion is either that (a) You quoted the rule wrong or (b)
We don't agree what PP is.  (IMHO you're *WRONG*!!!!! on PP)






> For another, there are perfectly unparadoxical situations in which
> the new rule still has an important consequence. I like your house
> rule better, myself.

   That is a different matter. You're right, there are going to be some
*important* implications, and I don't like them one bit! (eg
FF(Bre) SF(MAO), IF(Naf) SF(Por)-MAO, EF(Lon) CA(Wal)-Bre, A(Wal)-Bre...
this is horrible in the new rules!)


Mark
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Date:         Sat, 26 Sep 1992 10:38:12 TZONE
Reply-To:     GELSON GOMES <GELSON@BRFAPESP.BITNET>
Comments:     @FPSP.FAPESP.BR - @FPSP.HEPNET - @BRFAPESP.BITNET - .BR gateway
From:         GELSON GOMES <GELSON@BRFAPESP.BITNET>
Subject:      Mastering INTERNET TOOLS

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                    "The InterMeta Course"

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presented in the InterMeta Course are how to (1)Remote Login,
(2)Use Electronic Mail, (3)Move a File, (4)Find Software,
(5)Locate a Person, (3)Deal with Network Problems. An index that
covers a selection of resources available on the Internet,
ranging from Card Catalogs to Archives for USENET news will also
be delivered.
     In addition, some sessions will help UNIX, VMS, VAX and DOS
users to interface their systems to the Net.
     Resulting from five years of researching and using the
Network, the InterMeta Course is being prepared by Gelson
Gomes, Ph.D. The InterMeta is the first experience of a Global
Scale Course utilizing a matrix of connected networks, the
Metanetwork.
     Dr. Gomes is a professor at the Federal University of Parana
and is conducting research on the Computer Industries of Brazil
and Taiwan. He got his Doctoral Degree on Science and Technology
Public Policy at The George Washington University (Washington
D.C.).
     The course will be ministered from Brazil; to help
recovering local communication costs, (PDN is very expensive in
Brazil) a flat $ 5 US dollars donation is requested.
     To enroll in the InterMeta Course, please fill in the
application bellow and E-Mail to: Gelson@BRFAPESP.
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                     The InterMeta Course
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Mail your check to:
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.dipl-l
Date:         Sun, 27 Sep 1992 15:05:41 BST
Reply-To:     amt5man@SUN.LEEDS.AC.UK
From:         amt5man@SUN.LEEDS.AC.UK
Subject:      Convoys et al

> Now, Mark, to the nitty gritty stuff.


> You're right, I had forgotten the exact nature of the Pandin Paradox.
> But I can give another situation that illustrates the paradox equally
> well, and in this situation the "no units move" house rule has a
> different implication from that of the new official rule.

> Here's the set up <thinking thinking thinking thinking....>

> ENGLAND
> A Edi - Bel
> F Nth C A Edi - Bel
> A Pic - Lon
> F Eng C A Pic - Lon

> RUSSIA
> F Lon S F Nth

> FRANCE
> F Bel S F MAO - Eng
> F MAO - Eng
> F Den - Nth
> F Hol S F Den - Nth

> Is F Nth dislodged?  Is F Eng dislodged?

(Argument deleted which shows that this situation can't be resolved under the
old rules.)




> 2. Under the new rules, neither convoy (the one across Eng or the
> one across Nth) can cut the support of its target (in the one case
> Bel in the other Lon). So F Eng is dislodged. But F Nth is not.

> According to the new rule, then, F Eng is dislodged by F MAO, which
> is not the same as every unit staying where it is. Perhaps
> Mark's house rules would be different for a case like this.


Well under the standard HR's the resolution would be no units moved.  Most
HRs state: "in the event of a paradox all units involved hold".


> What do you think of my alternative paradox?

It shows that I hate the new rule.  I can't remember seeing any discussion
about this new rule before.  Can you recall which rulebook brought it in
to play?  I think that AH have made a mistake on this.

Mark
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Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 15:45:34 -0400
From:         Tempting Tylerite <JGADSDEN@SMITH.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: a funny thing happened in Northampton, (MA)

re-
They had no title as of yet, except that it is a thriller.  It seems as if
mum is the word around here.
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X-VMS-To: IN%"CINEMA-L@AUVM.BITNET",RHAMEL
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.cinema-l
Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1992 07:59:00 CDT
From:         Ray Hamel <RHAMEL@MACC.WISC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Good [BAD] Movies

        I finally saw RAGING BULL, often acclaimed as the
best film made during the 1980s.  I hated it.  A boring story
about a collection of the most unsavory characters you could ever
find together.  DeNiro has never been one of my favorite actors to
begin with, but Joe Pesci did a good job.
        I liked TERMS OF ENDEARMENT when I first saw it, but it has
lost some appeal with subsequent viewings.

Ray Hamel
University of Wisconsin
From: huddle@VTTCF.CC.VT.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.cinema-l
Subject: Simpsons night a the movies
Date: 2 Oct 92 22:50:10 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

Culled from alt.tv.simpsons...

   Movies, lit, architecture refs in _A Streetcar Named Marge_ Oct 1

  `The Great Escape'
      Maggie with the handball `in the box' (music et al)
   `The Birds'
      The `Ooooh, babies' all sucking pacifiers and Hitchcock cameo
   `Clockwork Orange'
      Bart at the dinner table `...pain in my Gulliver...'
   `Cat On A Hot Tin Roof'
      Lisa at the dinner table `Big Daddy...'
   `Wizard of Oz'
      Miss Kansas' hat...
   The tryout scene is a generic theme eg `All That Jazz' `Chorus Line'
   `Nutcracker Suite'
      Maggie on the `toy' xylophone
   `Atlas Shrugged' and `The Fountainhead' by Ayn Rand
   The `Ayn Rand School for Tots' looked Frank Lloyd Wright'ish
   `Citizen Kane` - the scene where Homer is blowing on his program,
      which was torn into little ribbons joined at the spine (taken from
     Joseph Cotton watching the horrible opera debut of Kane's wife).

and a excerpt for those that missed it....
        Le Grand Finale... (sung to `Guys and Dolls' style tune...)

Marge (as Blanche) (Spoken to Chief Wiggum as ?)
Whoever you are, I have always depended on the kindness of strangers...
Cast!
   You can always depend on the kindness of strangers...
   To pluck up your spirits, and shield you from dangers...
Marge (as Blanche)
   Now here's a tip from Blanche you won't regret...
Cast!
   A stranger's just a friend you haven't met...
(Sell it!)
   You haven't met... (wait for it...) STREETCAR!

CURTAIN

------
-scott
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Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 08:55:52 -0400
From:         FISHERKJ@SNYONEVA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: The Bash Street Kids...

>Harrison Ford came & spoke to my
>12-student literary criticism seminar about filmmaking for 45 minutes.  He's
>as nice a guy in person as he seems on screen.

>In which case, the Costner-bashers will be lining up to have a go at him

Nah. Ford never cast himself as Robin Hood, or asked us to suffer
through a politically correct 3-hour live-action cartoon.

kjf
From: stevep@SNOWHITE.CIS.UOGUELPH.CA ((Steve X. Portigal))
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.cinema-l
Subject: Re: Shirley MacLaine
Date: 29 Sep 92 20:50:37 GMT
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              "ELGFROEHRER%PSUCES.BITNET@AMERICAN.EDU" at Sep 29, 92 11:29 am


   I just caught most of "Madame Souzatska" on TV this weekend. It
seemed like a wonderful movie, with interesting characters, challenging
motivations, humour, warmth, sadness, fantasy, and realism. I don't
think it did that well, I had heard the title but knew nothing else
about it.

 Anyway, I highly recommend it. It didn't seem like "my type of film"
(whatever that is, anyway) but I really enjoyed it. Was that based on a
book or was it original? Was Shirly Maclaine intended to play that role?

Steve
--
/*************************************************************\
|  Steve Portigal  University of Guelph  Guelph, Ontario      |
|  stevep@snowhite.cis.uoguelph.ca (519) 824-4120 x 3580      |
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