From: tomster@bigwpi.WPI.EDU (Thomas Richard Dibble)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: When is a CLI faster than a GUI?
Date: 1 Oct 92 16:00:14
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute, Worcester, MA 01609-2280
	<tx_pmng.marquis@netcom.com> <6073.2ac83f50@hayes.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigwpi.wpi.edu
In-reply-to: bcoleman@hayes.com's message of 29 Sep 92 11:34:40 EDT

In article <6073.2ac83f50@hayes.com> bcoleman@hayes.com (Bill Coleman) writes:

   In article <tx_pmng.marquis@netcom.com>, marquis@netcom.com (Roger Marquis) writes:
   >>> |> I find a heavy reliance on point and click menus to be insulting to
   >>> |> my intelligence.
   >>> 
   >>I think this is a reaction to the psycological reality that the graphic
   >>interface takes less cognitive effort than a CLI. QED.
   >>
   >>Really. It is like their subconcious is saying, "Hey, this is easy. That's
   >>not right. Using a computer is supposed to be hard. This must be childish.
   >>I'm insulted."
   > 
   > Bill, You really know how to come up with them don't you!  This
   > explanation is pretty out there.  I guess it's easy to come up with
   > self serving hypotheses if you're not in touch with reality.  

   Roger, I don't think this is so far-fetched. Examine the anti-graphic UI
   postings. On several occasions I've seen the vitrolic term "pretty icons."
   There seems to be some kind of association between "easy" and childish.

   People have preconceived notions of what certain experiences are supposed
   to be like. If you spend years using a CLI, you'd get the impression that
   using a computer takes a large portion of your attention. When suddenly
   confronted with a computer interface that takes very little attention, people
   react. Some react positively, some reject it as "childish." I think this
   reaction has more to do with fundamental personality types.

SURPRISE !!!
My first computer experience was with a Mac.  I still did not like it.

   > In other words I disagree.  The reason I find it insulting is that the
   > programmer has clearly ignored the desires of users who would prefer
   > to use the keyboard.  He is assuming that users are not capable of
   > remembering what options they wish to select and force them to pull
   > down the menu to select an option.  

   In your original posting, you weren't specific. The Apple Human Interface
   Guidelines has a comprehensive list of command key equivalents. As a very
   experienced Mac user, I get pissed off about programs that don't do such
   simple things as command-O for open and command-W for close. I get really
   annoyed with programs that use command-key equivalents in non-standard
   ways (like when command-A isn't Select All. THINK Pascal. Grrr).

   When the command keys aren't present, they cause a minor delay, since 
   nothing happens. Then you have to fall back on the "old way" of doing
   things with the mouse. This isn't so bad.

   When the command keys are defined in a non-standard way, then you end up
   doing something you didn't want to in the first place. This makes you
   paranoid. You have to carefully ask yourself before pressing each command-key,
   "is this the right one, or is it something non-standard?" It slows you
   down, and there's no cure for it. (Whereas the truely annoyed can change
   the command-keys with ResEdit)

   On this point I agree. Consideration should be made for the keyboard
   bound user. Arrow keys, extended keyboard keys and the like should be
   supported where they make sense. Tabbing between fields, proper dialog
   dismissal, and even dialog button shortcuts are highly recommended. Of 
   course, there are some things in the MacOS that will have to be done with
   the mouse regardless. You can't elminate the mouse, but you can be
   accomidating to the keyboard user.

   That single aspect, however, doesn't make the MacOS insulting to your
   intelligence.

Just your previous skills.

   > It's like WordPerfect asking "Are
   > you sure you want to quit" when you just selected 'File' 'eXit'.  

   File / *EXIT* ? This is a Mac program? Mac Programs use File / Quit. 
   And the shortcut is command-Q, not X. This sounds like an example from
   that *other*, not so well thought out graphic interface that attempts
   to imitate the Mac. (Poorly) They have no standards. What do you expect?

I'm sorry, but that was just childish.  What are the figures on the cognitive
effort required to translate 'Quit' to 'Exit', Bill?

   Around here, we term such dialogs as "road blocks." They get in your
   way each time. It is one thing to ask a user "Do you want to save the
   work you are going to lose" dialog when he quits with unsaved changes.
   But to gratuitiously ask "Are you sure ?" every time is unnecessarily
   annoying! ARGH!

I agree.  There are programs you can run to get rid of these things, however.

   I can think of an example from the FLEX OS. (Early microcomputing OS
   for the 6800 and later 6809) This CLI required you to fully type the
   name of a file you wanted to delete: "DELETE FRED.TXT". It would
   then come back with the question "Delete FRED.TXT ?" To which you would
   invariably answer "Y" (for yes) since you had to type in the entire file
   name in the first place (no wildcards). Now, it would not delete the
   file just yet, but ask you again "Are you sure ?" Of course you would
   answer "Y" and the file would be deleted.

   The amusing thing happened if you answered "N" to the second question.
   The OS would respond with "I thought so" and exit. Cute programming. Bad
   interface.

   > The programming is assuming that you need help every step of the way and
   > are likely to make a mistake if given too many options.  Pleeeasee.

   I agree. It sounds like a poorly conceived interface. Programming efforts
   should be applied to streamlining the user's task, not pandering to him.

Agreed.  Finally you are making some sense.

   -- 
   Bill Coleman, AA4LR                ! CIS: 76067,2327    AppleLink: D1958
   Principal Software Engineer        ! Packet Radio: AA4LR @ W4QO
   Hayes Microcomputer Products, Inc. ! UUCP: uunet!hayes!bcoleman
   POB 105203 Atlanta, GA 30348 USA   ! Internet: bcoleman%hayes@uunet.uu.net
   Disclaimer: "My employer doesn't pay me to have opinions."
   Quote: "The same light shines on vineyards that makes deserts." -Steve Hackett.


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