From: crdunlea@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Christopher R. Dunlea)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: Apparently, we have another "weineramus" to contend with.
Date: 4 Nov 92 00:36:33 GMT
Organization: Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY

In article <9211022207@zuma.UUCP> sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic) writes:
>In article <1992Nov2.033736.8590@newstand.syr.edu> crdunlea@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Christopher R. Dunlea) writes:
>
>>Please enlighten us. What the fuck is a "weineramus"? If you refuse to 
>>enlighten us, Flamemaster, I will assume it is another term for hot dog, 
>>as in, "I went to Heid's today and had a great weineramus with extra onions,
>>sauerkraut and mustard. Yum yum."
>
>Your ignorance cramps my conversation. Tell you what, "duldul", I'll 
>give you the benefit of the doubt and attribute your askew thinking to
>"weineramus". Now, any comment?

Yeah. What a great historian you are! Too arrogant to even define an uncommon
term. I haven't had a conversation like this since I left fourth grade,
"dildo".

>>>substantial evidence with respect to any connection between 
>>>present-day Greece and ancient Greece. The prominent German
>>>historian Jacop P. Fallmerayer published a treatise in 1830
>>>and made the assertion that during the Middle Ages slavik
>>>tribes poured into Greece and annihilated the entire Greek
>>>population. Truly, can anyone see any resemblance between 
>>>that beacon of ignorance and the ancient Greeks who created 
>>>a civilization?
>
>>Why should that impress anyone? Nobody quotes any historian from the 
>>1830's anymore, that is, nobody who values their reputation as an historian.
>
>Dr. Pierre Oberling does. See, you are a self-admitted liar.

Where'd you come up with that pathological piece of illogic? I admit nothing
except that historians, like myself, do not consider 160 year old books
worth taking on face value. Oh, I am not Dr. Pierre Oberling, so I
cannot be a "self-admitted liar". Buy Webster's and look up "self-admitted".
You'd learn a lot really if you bought a book written in this century, 
Mutlu (oops, gotta use fake names here).

>>By the way, your analogy of "beacon of ignorance" stinks. The SAT people
>>would flunk that one. You cannot have a "beacon" of ignorance any more
>>that you can have a lightbulb shining darkness. See the Chicago Manual of
>>Style.
>
>And your lack of intelligence has to be divinely inspired. As for your
>darkness,

Thank you for reinforcing my point. A "lack" cannot be inspired by God. 
Once again, you prove that English is not your proficient language, So
perhaps you need to take another English comp course before you post more
sophomoric missimiles. 

>Source: Hovannisian, Richard G.: Armenia on the Road to Independence, 1918.
>University of California Press (Berkeley and Los Angeles), 1967, p. 13.

1918, huh? I can smell the must from that academic dinosaur of a book. 
Perhaps you don't quote more recent books because they might depict the 
Turks as the exploiters they were. Or maybe because those were the only 
books you could steal from the Izmir City Library.
     
[More usual genocidal rantings we've all come to expect from Sendar Mutlu]

>>Your use of the terms "Turkiye" and "Greece" are nationalist in tone. If you
>>insist on using the term "Turkiye" we suggest using the native term for 
>>Greece as well, "Hellas". This is only fair and out of respect to your
>>appropriate subjects.
>
>Pieces of sanity are found washed ashore on all kinds of beaches these
>days.
>
>>>Furthermore, the evolution of democracy leads one to believe that
>>>the cradle of democracy is really in England, rather than in Greece.
>>>The Greek version of 'democracy' was purely an accident. It was a 
>>>product of the love of fallacy and a passion for sophistry of the 
>>>ancient Greeks. No mechanism or method to make it worth was set 
>>>forth, save a loose oratory. On the other hand, the British adapted 
>>>fantasy, and made it work. Had democracy really been an inherent 
>>>virtue of Greeks would it have dragged its feet for so long to come 
>>>to Greece? Even today, democracy is just so much as a catchword among 
>>>the tourism slogans of Greece - not much substance and a lot of aura.

[Pertinent stuff deleted to quote out of context]

>>Yes, and it is good that the Turkish state makes no pretense to being 
>>anything  other than it really was throughout history: A) a xenophobic, 
>>racially structured empire based on Janissaries and slave labor, or 
>
>Omy. Apparently, we have another "weineramus" to contend with. You should 
>indeed be happy to know that you rekindled a huge discussion on distortions 
>propagated by several of your contemporaries. If you feel that you can 
>simply act as an Armenian/Greek governmental crony in this forum you will 
>be sadly mistaken and duly embarrassed. This is not a lecture to another 
>historical revisionist, but a fact. The following observations by Westerners 

Not likely, babe. This ain't nearly as embarrassing as having my email
account confiscated due to flooding the band with racial slurs and slanderous
statements (which are a felony here in the States). Besides, I refuse
to use words like "weineramus" (a thin cut of breaded veal?) that ican't
readily give the definition to. That's just plain stupid, Mutlu Man.

>"If Turks had behaved like Christians to use force to convert to Islam the
>nations which they brought under their power, to which no one could have
>opposed, today there would be no Eastern problem. But Turks did not do so. 
>They obeyed the word of the Koran to permit everybody "to worship in their own
>way" centuries before Frederick the Great pronounced his famous dictum. Thus,
>in an age when the Christian Europe itself shed Christian blood and when 
>people in Europe enjoyed inflicting inhuman tortures upon those whose beliefs
>differed from theirs, the Ottoman Empire became the sole country where the
>inquisition did not exist, where deaths at the stake were unheard of and 
>where accusations of witchcraft were not made. And the barbarian (!) Turkey
>was the only country where the Jews persecuted and chased away everywhere
>by the Christians, could find asylum. These facts demonstrate that Muslim
>countries provided spiritually far better living conditions than Christian
>countries."[1]

How touching. So the Crusades, the Battle of Lepanto, and the Seige of
Vienna never happened! Not to mention slavery and piracy. I'm glad you
cured up that misconception for me. Now that I think about it, I did
notice the milk flowing from the mountains when I visited Ephesus. THat'explains everything.

>"Turks rule over people under their administration only externally, without
>interfering with their internal structures. On account of this, the autonomy
>of minorities in Turkey is better and more complete than any in the most
>advanced European countries."[2]

We have something like that here. It's called the Office of Indian Affairs.
They too have "autonomy" in much the same way. Believe me, they love the fact
that they have absolutely no say in the government's treatment of them on
their own native soil. Autonomy is the old excuse for refusing civil and 
legal rights to minorities (South Africa, Soviet system...)

>"...human beings hate each other on account of religious differences. This flaw
>is older than Islam and Christianity. But there has never been any examples
>of this adjuration in Turkey because Turks never oppress anybody on account
>of his religion. If enmity on the basis of religion had been such a case of
>simple contempt among us too, or if it did not keep translating itself into
>action, many nations in our Europe would probably have considered themselves
>happy!" (A. de Mortraye).[3]
>
>Need I go on?

No, you proved your point: that an overpaid AT&T office worker with not enough
to do can still respond to everyone's post, no matter how absurd.


>Serdar Argic

Freddy Flintstone