HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: Answer to Mr John
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 19:45:44 GMT

aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh) writes:
#
#You may believe, in your own mind, that the Gulf War had nothing to do
#with Israel; 

It is clear that it had nothing to do with Israel. If you think
otherwise, please prove it.

#and you may certainly support Mr. Anwar and friends who
#also try to reduce the severity of the crimes against Iraqis and
#Palestinian people by justifying U.S. intervention and protection of
#its interests, including Israel, in the Middle East.  

So anyone who doesn't agree with a single thing you say, you
automatically make unjustifiable assumptions about him. Personally,
it didn't make me feel good to see the US use Iraq's army and
industry for practice shooting. A war it wasn't. 

#And you can
#certainly condemn people like Mr. Elghani, who are tired of these
#excuses and injustices, but it only leads to one conclusion.  And
#that is, racism and bigotry.

The use of the words "racism" and "bigotry" is completely out of
line. As for Elghani, who blames all the troubles of the
Arabs on Israel (including, I guess, massive gassings of civilians
by Egypt and Iraq), it reeks of Nazi-like propaganda, of the
same type which was used by Arab dictators to decieve their
people. Anyone who blames Israel for the problems in Algeria
has to have a few screws loose and/or is trying to incite hate.

-Danny Keren.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: kshammou@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Khaled J Shammout)
Subject: Re: Very Weak Zionist Claims Over Palestine
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 18:32:30 GMT

In Article: 52161 of talk.politics.mideast (Danny Rothenberg) writes:

>In article <1992Sep30.171402.15999@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
>kshammou@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Khaled J Shammout) writes:

>>Also, there are many Jews who work for the
>>PLO (that is the Palestine Liberation Organization).  Yes they are Jews, but
>>they are also Palestinians and are ARAB PALESTINIANS.

>There are Jews who work for the PLO (unfortunately), but they are
>not Arab (by whatever definition you wish to use) but [mainly] a group called
>Neturei Karta (unless you now wish to include a group of immigrants
>from Hungary as Arabs.  Make up your mind.

     STOP PUTTING WORDS IN OTHER'S MOUTHS!! AND STOP TWISTING THE ARGUMENTS 
AROUND JUST TO CONFUSE THE ISSUE.
     THOSE PALESTINIAN JEWS WHO WORK FOR THE P.L.O., ARE ARABS.  THEY ARE
CONSIDERED PALESTINIANS AND ARABS SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY ARE OF PALESTINIAN 
ORIGIN, AND THEY CONSIDER THEMSELVES TO BE ARABS.  P E R I O D...



Wa Salam
----------------------
Khaled Shammout
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: "SALEM" (Peace)!!! means "MURDER"!!!!!!!!!!!
Date: 2 Oct 92 16:53:58 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <4247@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:
>
>But this is the main point , haled J Shammout many other Arabs in the
>middle east and in other places do consider killing Jews as a good
>action.

What proof do you have to support such a theory?  And how dare you
accuse Khaled of considering this a 'good action'!!

Obviously you don't know what you are talking about and you haven't
been keeping up on anything that Mr. Shammout has said.

What trash shall we bring up regarding Israeli words and ACTIONS
against the Palestinians??

Keep YOUR LOUSY opinions and bigotry to YOURSELF!!

We refuse to accept such garbage - this newsgroups is BAD ENOUGH!!!

SHALOM!!

Anisa

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Very Weak Zionist Claims Over Palestine
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1992 04:18:32 GMT

In article <bdm.717416634@cs.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:
>adam@sparkle.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:

>>Most rational historical accounts have Muslims overrunning the area
>>in the 7th century, or so.  There is no evidence that there was any
>>historical continuity or ethnic separation between the 7th century
>>invaders and the local (non-Jewish) population, who you, without
>>evidence claim, were arab.

>What seems clear is that the locals adopted the culture and religion
>of the invaders.  Unless the locals were all killed off, the argument
>for continuous occupation stands.

I'd say a large fraction of the locals and their decendants were killed
off either by the initial Jihad, or durring the crusades.  Lets face
it, there were safer places to live not far away.  The bloodlines
probably are very thin to anyone going back to before the Israelite
kingdoms.

On a related note, if the locals gave up thier cuture, I'm not sure
how strong the claim to contiuous occupation is.  Is someone who is
1/16th native american more entitled to live in Boston that I am?

>>The Arabs, however, never really established a seperate statehood, or
>>nationality in Israel; there is no evidence untill the 20th century of
>>anyone getting attatched to the land.

>I think the last part is silly.  How could they live there for 
>centuries and not be attached to the land?  They didn't show
>overt signs of it until the saw their position threatened; 
>seems what I would expect.

How do we know they lived there for centuries?  Most of the locals
were fairly migratory; they came and went with droughts, with the
economy, etc.  I've seen very little evidence that there was a pattern
of staying in borders we now argue about, as opposed to going to
Damascus, Beruit, Constantinople, and Cairo.

>Do you think the Australian
>aborigines formed nationalist organisations during any of the
>60,000+ years of occupation before white settlers arrived?
>Maybe they weren't attached to the land either?

I'll answer a similar question, because I'm not very familiar wwith
the aborigines.  "Do you think the Native maericans formed nationalist
organizations..."

No, I don't.  I think they were very attatched to their land.  A great
deal of land in America still bears their names (Illinios,
Massachusetts, etc).  I don't think that the Illinois had any great
attatchment to Oregon, nor did the natives of Massachusets have any
great love for the lands of the Cherokee.  Similarly, I have seen
little evidence that the Palestinians can trace their roots in what is
now Israel for more than a few generations.

Adam
Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all.  How true that is.
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Arab and Jews
Date: 5 Oct 92 21:13:40 GMT
	<1992Oct4.173607.3799@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> <4264@bimacs.BITNET>
Organization: USC/Information Sciences Institute
In-reply-to: ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET's message of 5 Oct 92 11:09:44 GMT

In article <4264@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:
>
> In article <1992Oct4.173607.3799@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
> kshammou@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Khaled J Shammout) writes:
>
> >     First of all, you know that there are many privileges tied with the
> >military service in which only Jews serve, (in addition to the minorty group
> >the Druze).  Therefore, the Arabs do not have the chance of getting many
> >priviliges and services which require, as one of its conditions, the
> >completion of military service.
>
> My commander in the army was Abed El Heib -  an Arab !
> Many of my friends in that same units wher Arabs from the
> Arabian farm Arab El shiebly near Nazarath, Others came from Beit Jan,
> Arabs can vo;lunteer to the Israeli Army !

Do you know how many of those who volunteer are actually allowed to
serve?  Based on news articles in the Israeli press I understand that
this number is actually very small -- i.e., most Arabs who wish to
voluntarily serve in the IDF are turned down.  I think even you would
consider it quite unfair that such a person then be denied any
privileges, no?
--
Yigal Arens
USC/ISI
arens@isi.edu
From: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Jack S Defends Kosher Food Boycott (Was: ARF DEFENDS HIS HONOR)
Date: 2 Oct 1992 23:29:48 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


One irony of a boycott of kosher products is that it is my understanding
that, with Muslim dietary laws somewhat similar to kashruth, a boycott of
kosher products, and a decreasing of their availability, would also impact
negatively on Arab Muslims here.
But ARF probably doesn't care, as long as it hurts the Jews.
-- 
bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu (Manu)
Subject: Re: Answer to Mr John
Organization: Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 23:26:50 GMT

In article <1992Oct01.185638.2403937@locus.com> jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes:


>
>Listen, I am not being anti Kuwaiti here.  That's why I said Kuwaitis
>died for the safety of israel.  

	Of course it's Israel's fault.  Everytime the Arabs have a problem
	you just blame it on Israel.  Perhaps Israel is responsible for the
	starving Somalians too?

Geoff


>
>jle


-- 
Email: gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu            

"The Arab governments were largely responsible for the ruin of the Palestinian
  Arabs"     -Sir John Bagot Glubb
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Subject: Re: Arab Jews are ARABS
Reply-To: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Organization: North Carolina State University
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 14:38:19 GMT

In article <1992Oct1.204401.25301@cs.ucla.edu>, steven@maui.cs.ucla.edu
(Steve Berson) writes:
> hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem) writes:
> 
> >This is not true. Indeed, in Iran, Jews have guaranteed representation
> >in the Majlis (parliament). While this may not be democracy as it is
> >known in the U.S., you are quite wrong that Iranian Jews are not
> >permitted to vote or run for office.
> >Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)
> 
> The Majlis is, of course, not really a parliment, but rather a 
> consultative body (similar to what the Emir of Kuwait has for
> advice).  How was Ayatollah Ali Hoseini-Khamenei elected (or
> the Emir of Kuwait, for that matter)?
> Thanks,
> Steve
> -- 
> =========================================================================
> Steven Berson           UCLA Computer Science Department   (310) 825-3189
> steven@cs.ucla.edu      Los Angeles, CA 90024-1596
> =========================================================================

You have the situation a little reversed. The Majlis is elected, as is
the President. Khamenei is not in the government per se. His position is
somewhat comparable to the role of the Supreme Court in the U.S. (please
note that Supreme Court justices are not elected). 

Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: To Yigal Arens
Date: 6 Oct 92 15:23:23 GMT
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University

In article <1992Oct6.003514.24058@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> kshammou@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Khaled J Shammout) writes:
>     Thank you Yigal Arens for shedding the TRUTH, and nothing but the TRUTH.
>To be fair and unbiased now a days is very hard; and you are unique, Yigal.

Implying, of course, that Khaled is not fair and unbiased...  :)

Adam



Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all.  How true that is.
From: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Very Weak Zionist Claims Over Palestine
Date: 1 Oct 1992 20:29:38 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) says:


>>You seem to be making the argument that a forced transfer of a population
>>invalidates the claim of those who were forced to leave if very few are
>>allowed to remain.  
>
>No, I'm saying that it makes no difference whether there was a 
>handful of Jews living in Palestine or none at all.  I've already
>said elsewhere that I don't accept land claims based on possession
>once upon a time.  
>
In that case, you obviously must accept land claims based on a total lack
of possession at any time, such as the bogus claims of the Arabs.  (Sarcasm
intended.)
>
>If you are an Israeli Jew in the year 4000 you will probably laugh
>at the idea that the descendants of the Palestinian Arabs of 1948
>have a right to return to the place they were kicked out of 2000
>years before.

That's a non-starter, since it's based on the incorrect assertion that
Arabs were kicked out in 1948.
-- 
bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Subject: Re: Anti-Arab racism on the net
Summary: Livni is a liar.
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
Organization: Australian National University
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1992 05:20:26 GMT

In article 23369@bony1.bony.com, jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>In article <bdm.717559515@cs.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:
>>jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>>
>>>While you have claimed that a Palestinean state rightly belongs
>>>somewhere inside Israel instead of in Jordan, you have not responded
>>
>>I'm getting worried about you Jake.  Quote me on that "claim".
>
>I don't bother to save your silly postings, so we'll just have to 
>settle for some of your recent fare.
>
>In article <bdm.717861102@cs.anu.edu.au> you wrote:
>
>>I didn't say that Palestinians recognise Israel.  What I would suggest 
>>is a swap:  Israel makes a formal declaration that it accepts the 
>>Palestinians as a people with the same rights to self-determination 
>>as any other people, and the Palestinians repeal all articles in the 
>>Covenant and elsewhere that call for the destruction of Israel and
>>formally denounce that call.  (Anyone who thinks that such declaration
>>by Israel is not necessary should read t.p.m for a while.)   Formal 
>>recognition of a Jewish state by the Palestinians can wait until Israel 
>>is ready to recognise a Palestinian state.
>
>After arguing so vigorously for months on end that Palestine was
>inside what is now Israel and that Jordan had almost nothing to do
>with old Palestine, your call for a Palestinean state could only
>logically be on some land inside what is today Israel, unless you had
>Uganda in mind, perhaps.

This is the last posting I will make in response to you.  The simple
fact is that over and over again you have proved yourself to be a liar.
(The only other explanation is that you have some sort of psychological
problem.)  You know perfectly well that
(a) I do not argue that "Palestine was inside what is now Israel".
    I have said that so many times that I'm thoroughly sick of
    repeating it.  You know it, liar.
(b) I have often said that a Palestinian state would ideally include
    part of Jordan.  You have even quoted me back in your postings,
    so your refusal to acknowledge it marks you yet again as a liar.

I strongly suspect that all you are doing is purposefully wasting
my time so that I have none left for sensible discussion with the
many sincere posters on this group (including many I disagree with).
Whatever your motivation, from now on I will treat you as nonexistent.
Maybe someone else will be foolhardy enough to respond to your
ignorant verbal diarrhoea.
Bye bye, Jake.

>Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com               Pat Paulsen for President

Brendan.
From: kshammou@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Khaled J Shammout)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Arab Jews are ARABS
Date: 4 Oct 92 17:36:07 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University

In Article: 52147 of talk.politics.mideast,   (Alan H. Stein) writes:

>In a previous article, kshammou@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Khaled J Shammout)
>says:

>>     It seems that you are acustomed to the Israeli law that discriminates
>>among Jewish citizens and non-Jewish citizens.

>It seems to be that you are ignorant of Israeli law, which does not
>discriminate between Jewish and non-Jewish citizens.

     Well Mr. Stein, it is either you are really ignorant of Israeli law
which discriminates among Jewish and non-Jewish citizens (but yet try to
argue and defend it), or you are familiar with Isareli law but try
to hide the truth.

     First of all, you know that there are many privileges tied with the
military service in which only Jews serve, (in addition to the minorty group
the Druze).  Therefore, the Arabs do not have the chance of getting many
priviliges and services which require, as one of its conditions, the
completion of military service.  Thus Arabs do not get many of those Housing
loans, education scholarships, social security, tax breaks, etc...  And even
those Druze who serve, usually end up in almost the same diprivation of such
priviliges because they are considered minorty group, despite their military
service.
     Also, there are certain areas in Israel where non-Jews are not allowed,
BY LAW, to live there.  Such as the village of CARMIEL, where non-Jews are not
allowed to live there nor are they allowed TO OWN A BUSINESS (this is the so
called Israeli DEMOCRACY !!!!).  Not only that, now that village have
incorporated the land of three neighboring ARAB villages (in an effort to make
the entire area PURE JEWISH) and are forcing the Arab inhabitants out of their
villages.  One of these Arab villages is called Rumayya and their case is still
hanging in the Israeli supreme court (I think it is called the Supreme court).
     And what about the Kiputzim,  in which Arabs were not allowed, by law, to
becaome members.  But then when the government noticed that many kiputzim were
employing Arabs, as cheap labor, it (the ISRAELI GOVERNMENT) passed a law which
prohibits even employing Arabs.  And you talk about the so called Israeli
Democracy.
     And finally, what about all those special rights and priviliges that are
offered ONLY to the new comers to Israel.  And guess who the new comers are???
Jews, of course.


     So Mr. Stein, stop covering the organized and legalized racism in Israel, 
and try to more objective.

Wa Salam
______________________
Khaled Shammout
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Answer to Mr John
Date: 29 Sep 92 23:03:21 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <BvBIJA.KFH.2@cs.cmu.edu> anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) writes:
>
>Or you may continue to listen to the lies and fantasies of
>Anisa (I've mercifully dropped the Mr/Ms/Mrs) who hypocritically
>advocates the principles of self-preservation on her own people's 
>behalf but refuses to do for any others if she finds it politically
>inconvenient.

Anwar, I don't need any courtesy from you - obviously you don't
hold any regard for anyone unless they are from your country.
Only *hypocrites* like your government, and its partner
in crime, Saudi Arabia, are the one to advocate principals of
self-preservation for its peoples while calling on the demise
of other peoples who have the audacity to rebel against its
corrupt and unequal rule.

It is beyond me how you or your government expect other Arabs to
show any kind of loyalty to Kuwait - despite the fact that Kuwait
has given money to the Arab governments - it is nothing in
comparison to its annual income from the oil revenues.  As far as
I can see, it has been primarily to benefit Kuwait and not the
average person.
 
Even if you do not believe in a fair and equal system for all peoples
regardless of their nationality, you fail to understand why there is
such deep-rooted resentment, and with the war, why people finally
had the opportunity to voice the injustices, bigotry, double standards,
and abuses against Islam and Muslim people - because they were not
born in the 'prestigious' land of Kuwait and were not the beneficiaries
of land ownership or in the distribution of wealth.

While Kuwait was crying out against the occupation of such a brutal
dictatorship, they were the first to support the occupation of the
land of another people.  They gave money to support Yasir Arafat
and Hafiz Assad's stranglehold on Lebanon while turning its head against
the massacres and the average Palestinian family living in poverty.  I
don't recall how Kuwait supported the intefadah or Palestinian rights
and self-determination.  They didn't even show a face at the peace
conference.
 
Yet, the Arabs are supposed to support a war to aid Kuwait in her time
of need since Kuwaiti self-preservation is the primary agenda now.  Of
course threats and bribery are being held over the heads of the Arab
world, and if they do not comply with Kuwaiti demands for support, they
are 'traitors' - 'thieves' - and outcast by the rich and influential
while not even being called on the fact that their expelling almost a
million people violates human rights.  But if the people in Kuwait
have no voice in their own government, women are not even allowed to
vote, and opposition parties are forbidden, who should focus on the
needs of the non-Kuwaitis themselves?

Anisa

	"We have done too much already to blacken
	our reputation."
			Essa Alshaheen
From: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Very Weak Zionist Claims Over Palestine
Date: 1 Oct 1992 20:34:11 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) says:

>
>>	When does a small number become irrelevant?
>>	Is a continuous number of say, 10,000 along 1000 years irrelevant 
>>	compared to a wave of immigration of, say, 1,000,000 in 10 years?
>
>What I wanted to say was that I don't think the Jewish claim to
>Palestine is in any way enhanced (or reduced) by the existence of
>a small fraction of the population of Palestine who were Jewish.
>Those Jews who lived there had, by virtue of that residence, the 
>same rights with respect to the place that other residents had,
>but I don't know of any principle that lets one small subset of a
>self-defined group to act as place-holders for all the others.

So, taking that principle to its logical conclusion, you also must not
think that the fact that a small subset of Arabs lived in Eretz Yisrael for
a period of time should enable them to claim it for all the other Arabs. 

>
>Certainly not, but rather than trying to score more points in this
>argument let me repeat that I don't think the argument matters a
>damn.  I do not accept land claims based on conquest in ancient
>times, and that goes for everybody and everywhere.
>
I guess you just accept land claims based on whether or not you like
the people making them.
-- 
bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu
From: jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Serbia etc.
Date: 6 Oct 92 13:29:11 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

Article in todays "Guardian":

Serbs court Jewish veterrans as 'natural allies'

.
.
.
The Belgrade government has consistently sought the [Jewish Friendship]
society's support in the Croation conflict. Statements from the organization 
have lent moral justification to the Serbian cause, while television
appearances by Mrs. Mandic and composer Enrico Josef - famous for his
description of Serbs as "celestial people" - have reinforced the belief
that Jews are Serbs natural allies.
.
.
.

-- 
===Jeremy Henderson===jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk=          Vommen
                                             Bladmagen
                                   Loepmagen
                        Naetmagen