HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mccoy@peppermint.cns.udel.edu (Don McCoy)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia
Subject: Re: The "inside scoop" on Somalia
Date: 12 Dec 92 20:03:50 GMT
Organization: University of Delaware, Newark


	Sounds reasonable to me.  The US is acting perfectly consis-
tently with their past behavior.  Humanitarian?  Well, so long as
it's humanitarian *and* of military or economic interest....

Don't get me wrong (or do, who cares), I like the US, but I get 
tired of hearing the crap about what a great place this is.  Face it:
We ignore what we don't want to hear, we help people when it's 
convienient to do so and we don't really give a shit about the rest
of the world. 

To bad it's not otherwise.  Maybe if the people on this group and
other americans(tm) would, ahem, pull their heads out....   THEN 
maybe we'd change somewhat.  I don't expect to see it in my lifetime,
but it the meantime, I'll call it as I see it.

I think it's great that some people are getting fed.  I will feel bad
when the publicity dies down and they begin to starve again.  Truth
is though, if US government didn't want to be involved, they'd have
weasled out of it somehow or the other.  Remember China?  Too bad
those human rights violations came at a time when Bush was trying
to reinstate favored-nation trading status....


..don...
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia,alt.politics.org.un,alt.president.clinton,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.bush
From: egl1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Elizabeth G. Levy)
Subject: Re: Somalia Question
Reply-To: egl1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Elizabeth G. Levy)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 17:39:57 GMT

In article <BzCyyp.MD4@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> gtao@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Greg ) writes:
>
>I don't mean to downplay the situation in the Balkans, but it is an ethnic 
>dispute.  The conflict that is raging can be directly traced back 400 years,
>longer if you want to extrapolate.  Military intervention in the Balkans
>would inevitably involve choosing a side.  There is no right side in this
>conflict.  Both sides have committed countless attrocities.  Our top
>military leaders view US ground involvement as a "No Win" situation.  The
>only people calling for intervention seem to be political types...remember,
>Vietnam was not a military failure (on the contrary, we won every battle)...
>it was a political failure.
>
>It pains me to see the bloodshed in the Balkans, but sometimes you have to 
>realize that there are limitations to what we can do.  

This is all quite true, and any sort of intervention, be it the
enforcement of the ban on military flights to the insertion of ground
troops, will be an iffy situation at best.

However, the potential for a general Balkan war is, well, disturbing.
Serbia turning south to Kosovo and Macedonia will draw Albania, Turkey
and perhaps Greece into the conflict.  The latter are NATO countries.
The refugee stream to Western Europe will be far worse, perhaps
destabilizing Germany.  And so on.  A real mess, as they say.  This
does not mean that we should intervene, but we should bear in mind
that there are important strategic considerations in Bosnia.



--
The insane fear of socialism throws the bourgeois headlong into the
arms of despotism.
			-- Tocqueville, 1852
From: cookinga@yukon.fishkill.ibm.com (Andy Cookingham)
Subject:  Re: CNN / All Reporters
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 92 18:20:21 GMT
Reply-To: cookinga@yukon.fishkill.ibm.com (Andy Cookingham)
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

 In article <<Bz26ts.9Ks@watserv2.uwaterloo.ca> 
idjohnst@sciborg.uwaterloo.ca (Ian Johnston) writes:	

>When you think about it, they didn't even really look like seals.
>They looked quite disoriented & confused... not 'trained killers' like
>i'd expect.


May I ask what "trained killers" are supposed to look like? Especially
when they aren't
on a mission to kill?
From: HADCRJAM@admin.uh.edu (MILLER, JIMMY A.)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia
Subject: Re: Where's the Beef? (was: ANOTHER WAR!)
Date: 13 Dec 1992 05:16:28 GMT
Organization: University of Houston Administrative Computing
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: uhad2.admin.uh.edu
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.20

In <1992Dec12.222724.24168@netcom.com> harp@netcom.com writes:

> scw@cirrus.seas.ucla.edu (Stephen C Woods) writes:
> 
> >In article <8DEC199212571337@jane.uh.edu> st1xu@jane.uh.edu (Carr, Emery D.) writes:
> >>just acting now? because our economic interests our being threatened.
> >>you see, somalia's main export is livestock. in case you didn't know,
> >>livestock is one of our biggest industries(for more info read DIET FOR
> >>A NEW AMERICA). I read in a recent issue (last week i think) of the 
> >>CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR that because of the "warlord's" fighting, that
> >>[...]
> 
> >What an astounding leap,  Somalia's primary export is Livestock (no mention
> >of what kind).  Therefore the United States is going to take over to ensure
> >the continued exportation of livestock (presumeably to the United States).
> 
> I'd be skeptical if someone told me that there were 10,000 head of
> _any_ sort of livestock still _alive_ in Somalia.  I agree that the
> idea of the U.S. trying to "corner the market" in livestock by
> invading Somalia is absurd.

  Somehow I think the original poster was just pulling everybody's chain.  It's
a fairly common practice on rec.sports.football.college, called "fishing".
Basically, you make an outrageous statement, and then wait to see if anybody
bites on it.  It's pretty fun --  at the appropriate place.  Five bucks that's
what this fellow was up to.

  Then again, he's posting from the University of Houston.  I work there, and
you can never be too sure if these folks are serious or not...<grins and waggles
eyebrows>


semper fi,

Jammer Jim Miller 
Texas A&M University '89 and '91
********************************************************************************
* Speak for my employers?  They don't even know I exist!		       *
*"Become one with the Student Billing System. *BE* the Student Billing System."*
* "Power finds its way to those who take a stand.  Stand up, Ordinary Man."    *
*      ---Rik Emmet, Gil Moore, Mike Levine: Triumph 		               *
********************************************************************************
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia,alt.politics.org.un,alt.president.clinton,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.bush
From: egl1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Elizabeth G. Levy)
Subject: Re: Defense Contractors (was Re: Somalia)
Reply-To: egl1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Elizabeth G. Levy)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 16:45:43 GMT

In article <BzFnKx.DvF@ns1.nodak.edu> green@plains.NoDak.edu (Brad Green) writes:
>
>Clinton whines about IBM losing 25,000 jobs, but even CNN and other news
>groups admit that IBM hasn't kept up with the competition.  What's he want
>us to do, subsidize an unprofitable business?  It's a shame to lose the jobs,
>but that's the way it works, you don't stay competitive, you lose.  I wonder
>if that's why Scully is hanging on to Slick's coattails.
>

Apple has actually done quite well in the past year, what with the
Powerbooks capturing a big chunk of the portable computer market by
storm, and the turmoil of restructuring already past.  The new
Performas may or may not make a dent in PC market share, but they
certainly won't hurt.  Getting Macs out of the "authorized dealers"
and priced more competitively (though not competitively enough, IMHO,
as I type away on an SE/30) is a Good Thing.

--
The insane fear of socialism throws the bourgeois headlong into the
arms of despotism.
			-- Tocqueville, 1852
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia
From: harp@netcom.com (Gregory O. Harp)
Subject: Re: Where's the Beef? (was: ANOTHER WAR!)
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 22:27:24 GMT

scw@cirrus.seas.ucla.edu (Stephen C Woods) writes:

>In article <8DEC199212571337@jane.uh.edu> st1xu@jane.uh.edu (Carr, Emery D.) writes:
>>just acting now? because our economic interests our being threatened.
>>you see, somalia's main export is livestock. in case you didn't know,
>>livestock is one of our biggest industries(for more info read DIET FOR
>>A NEW AMERICA). I read in a recent issue (last week i think) of the 
>>CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR that because of the "warlord's" fighting, that
>>[...]

>What an astounding leap,  Somalia's primary export is Livestock (no mention
>of what kind).  Therefore the United States is going to take over to ensure
>the continued exportation of livestock (presumeably to the United States).

>In the first place Somalia's primary export doesn't amount to a hill of
>beans, I expect that any medium sized feedlot processes more cattle
>than the entire country does (The Somalis are NOT Masai, nor are they
>Watusi).

In fact, according to a man with whom I spoke recently while at the
Grand Canyon (He's the only "real live" cowboy I've met -- and I live
in Dallas, Texas.) the average feedlot handles 10,000 head of cattle
at a time.  It only takes a handful of men to control the herd, too.

I'd be skeptical if someone told me that there were 10,000 head of
_any_ sort of livestock still _alive_ in Somalia.  I agree that the
idea of the U.S. trying to "corner the market" in livestock by
invading Somalia is absurd.
-- 
-----------------Greg-Harp----------------harp@netcom.com------------------
  "I think I've reached that point / Where every word that you write /
  Of every blood dark sea / And every soul black night / And every dream
  you dream me in / And every perfect free from sin / And burning eyes /
  And hearts on fire / Are just the same old song" -- The Cure
From: scw@cirrus.seas.ucla.edu (Stephen C Woods)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia
Subject: Re: CNN / All Reporters
Date: 16 Dec 92 23:02:12 GMT
Organization: School of Engineering and Applied Sciences, UCLA

In article <wkmpph-131292125700@norie_sato.isc.rit.edu> wkmpph@ritvax.isc.rit.edu (W. Keith McManus) writes:
>In article <Bz3nKM.6wo@encore.com>, csmith@wizard.Berkeley.EDU (Cheryl
>The military  knew the press was [...] the military had used some
>public service officers to organize the coverage bothsides would not
>have had to go through looking so stupid.   



The problem with that idea is that some yammerhead would claim that

     "The MILITARY is manipluating the press again".

Besides, it does the press good to look stupid and moronic everyonce and
a while.  Keeps them from growing little (false) halos.

-- 
-----
Stephen C. Woods; UCLA SEASNET; 2567 BH;LA CA 90024; (310)-825-8614
UUCP: ...{ibmsupt,ncar!cepu}!ollie}!scw  Internet:scw@SEAS.UCLA.EDU
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia,alt.politics.org.un,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.bush,talk.bizarre,alt.politics.british,alt.president.clinton
From: tleylan@pegasus.com (Tom Leylan)
Subject: Re: Does Bush hate Xmas or What ?
Organization: Pegasus,  Honolulu
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 92 21:13:35 GMT

wcalderw@nmsu.EDU (CALDERWOOD) writes:

>Why does Bush always want to do these things at christmas time?
>What did he have a bad childhood? May be he doesn't beleave
>in Santa.

You mean "feed starving Somali people" right ?  Yeah, you would thought
he would have picked Easter or Martin Luther King's birthday to begin
something so petty.

<duh>
From: HADCRJAM@admin.uh.edu (MILLER, JIMMY A.)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia
Subject: Re: Somalia
Date: 14 Dec 1992 17:50:13 GMT
Organization: University of Houston Administrative Computing
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: uhad2.admin.uh.edu
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.20

In <1992Dec14.145023.23803@linus.mitre.org> m23364@mwunix writes:

> In article <1gabndINNf93@menudo.uh.edu> HADCRJAM@admin.uh.edu (MILLER, JIMMY A.) writes:
> }In <1992Dec11.143819.29799@cbnews.cb.att.com> jmk@cbnews.cb.att.com writes:
> }
> }> Now those checkpoint guards have done it -- they've shot and killed a
> }> truckload of Somalis for having bad brakes! The idiots! Don't they know
> }> killing people makes them vulnerable to the glare of the media?

> }  Ahem.  Those doing the shooting were members of the French Foreign Legion.
> }Last I checked, they were from France, whose president is a Socialist (though
> }perhaps not for much longer), not a Republican.
> }
> }  So far, "our boys" (US marines) haven't shot anybody...You may stop foaming
> }at the mouth now.

  A correction here, when I first responded to the original post, CNN was rep-
orting the incident as if only French troops were involved.  Later reports in-
dicate that Americans were there as well.  Therefore I apologize for being
snide.

  I do feel that the troops involved did the right thing, however.  I'm afraid
Marines will be very trigger happy WRT trucks that will not stop after Beirut.

> Well, some (suicidal idiots?) decided to shoot at fully-armed cobra fighter 
> chopters using recoilless rigles mounted on (what use to be) three trucks.
> 
> hint: these same weapons were quite useful at removing tanks in iraq.  Want to
> guess on the impact on a truck?

  Pretty nasty to say the least.  One of the vehicles was an M113 armored pers-
onell carrier, BTW, according to the military.  As of today (12/14/92), no one
has said different.


semper fi,

Jammer Jim Miller 
Texas A&M University '89 and '91
********************************************************************************
* Speak for my employers?  They don't even know I exist!		       *
*"Become one with the Student Billing System. *BE* the Student Billing System."*
* "Power finds its way to those who take a stand.  Stand up, Ordinary Man."    *
*      ---Rik Emmet, Gil Moore, Mike Levine: Triumph 		               *
********************************************************************************
From: wolfone@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Patrick Chester)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia
Subject: Re: U.S. Is Not Going to War in Somalia for any Good Reasons
Date: 18 Dec 92 05:57:44 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX

In article <1giamlINN1b9@menudo.uh.edu> HADCRJAM@admin.uh.edu (MILLER, JIMMY A.) writes:
]
]  The difference between Serbia and Vietnam is that the Serbs have no super-
]power to back them up like the VC did.  Once the equipment and factories in

SHHHHHH!!!!! Don't break the progressive's hearts by telling them that 
Vietnam is *not* proof that the People(tm) can stand alone against a world
superpower!! It's Politically Incorrect to imply that!  :)





-- 
Patrick Chester            |----------------------------------------------------
wolfone@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu |"The earth is too fragile a basket in which to keep
Politically Incorrect      |  all your eggs." Robert A. Heinlein
Future Lunar Colonist      |"The meek can *have* the Earth. The rest of us are 
#^%$!! Militarist          |  going to the stars." Robert A. Heinlein
(Of the Sun Tzu mentality) |----------------------------------------------------
From: green@plains.NoDak.edu (Brad Green)
Subject: Re: Somalia
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 06:41:13 GMT
Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computing Network

In article <1992Dec15.055159.25224@news.columbia.edu> egl1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Elizabeth G. Levy) writes:
>I don't think Bush is leaving Clinton with a mess, politically.  If
>disaster strikes, and US troops are in Somalia for years, Clinton can
>say that Bush started it.

The problem here is that good 'ol Slick has gone overboard to agree with the
policy in Somalia.  He and all of his spokesmen have said on every occasion
that they completely support the Bush position.  That would make blaming it on
Bush a little difficult.  On the other hand, look at the fancy footwork he
used to change his story about the Gulf War.

>I sympathsize with this position, since I tend to be somewhat leary
>about exercising military options.  Sending in troops should be a last
>resort, after all.  It's just that I favor a human rights-based
>foreign policy, as opposed to the bloodless calculus of realpolitik.
>At this time, however, we do not have the organizations to accomplish
>policy goals.  That's why I've argued for a somewhat more muscular UN,
>since the UN peacekeeping forces in Somalia have failed miserably so
>far.

Agreed.  The problem is, we've tried just about every other course of action.
(Except for maybe arming the reporters and letting them do the job.)  The
stated policy is not to use force - the big stick policy.  If we come in with
enough potential force, they should roll over and let the food through.  And
it seems like the main warlords are doing just that.

>_Home Alone 2_ has now grossed over $90 million.
>
>	** Macaulay Culkin: HE MUST BE STOPPED !!!! **

Boy do I agree with that, even if the jerk does have North Dakota Roots. ;-)

Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia,alt.activism
From: mary@Cayman.COM (Mary Malmros)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia
Subject: Re: Somalia
Date: 15 Dec 92 20:56:11 GMT
	<MARY.92Dec13190831@martinique.Cayman.COM>
	<Bz93tA.I06@ucunix.san.uc.edu>
Followup-To: alt.current-events.somalia
Organization: Cayman Systems Inc., Cambridge, MA
In-reply-to: jonesek@ucunix.san.uc.edu's message of 14 Dec 92 13:22:22 GMT


In article <Bz93tA.I06@ucunix.san.uc.edu> jonesek@ucunix.san.uc.edu (Erik Reid Jones) writes:

   If a
   democracy were to be replaced with an intellectual aristocracy,
   where would the cutoff be?  The ~15% of the people who get
   Bachelors degrees?  The ~2% of the people who get Masters
   degrees?  Or move all the way up to being a Ph.D., D.M.A, or
   the like?  Or maybe the ruling class has to be a member of
   Mensa (oh, that lowest of the low of all the intellectual
   groups)?  Let's face it, anyone who would actually lobby for
   this kind of a system would want rules to be in place that
   would allow them to be a part of that ruling class.  That's
   why I posted Bachelors debree -- my own bias, since that is
   what I now have.  Of course, I could have said D.M.A., since
   that is what I am on my way towards.  One way or another, the
   bias plays through.  How about you, Mary?  If you were to
   advocate an intellectual aristocracy, what would be your
   guidelines?  How intelligent would you insist your leaders
   be before you allowed them to send America's children to
   Somalia?

I'm not advocating an intellectual aristocracy, so I don't feel
any real need to come up with one that would work ;-)  If I were, 
however, I doubt I'd base it on years of education.  I've seen
too many real smart people who didn't graduate from high school, 
and too many dumb rich kids with college degrees, and too many
featherbrained academics with advanced degrees and not one ounce
of common sense, to think that such a system would work.  


--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Mary Malmros     | Cayman Systems Inc, 26 Landsdowne St, Cambridge, MA 02139
 mary@cayman.com  | Phone 617-494-1999  Fax 617-494-5167  AppleLink CAYMAN.TECH
From: kirby@xerox.com (Mike Kirby)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia
Subject: Re: Going to Somalia
Date: 14 Dec 92 16:10:41 GMT
Reply-To: kirby@xerox.com
Organization: Xerox Corporation, Webster NY

In article 1124@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu, rday@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Robert E Day) writes:
> In article <1992Dec13.171127.26293@spectrum.xerox.com> kirby@xerox.com writes:
> > [stuff deleted]
> >One more point.  Somolia is no longer a country (in the western sense...Of
> >course the nation-state was invented by the west, so it is reasonable to
> >assume that definition) therefore noone is being invaded.  A better way to
> >express the action might be to say that order is being established in a region
> >of the world where thousands of people have the potential to die from
> >starvation because of a lack of order.  This isn't US vs. THEM.  There is no
> >THEM.
> 
> Let me see, we have no central government, and atleast two factions fighting 
> over control of the country. This sounds like a civil war to me.
> 
> So, this could been seen as a forein power(the UN forces) invading a
> sovereign country that is going through a civil war. Then it would be US vs.
> THEM & THEM.
> -- 
> If the price that I must pay to obtain my *  Robert E. Day/Syr Otto von    *
> freedom, is to acknowledge that the Gov-  *  Schwartzkatz, Shire Mugmort   *
> ernmet was granted the power to infringe  *  Barony Middle Marches,        *
> on them, then I am not free. Paul Anderson*  Middle Kingdom                *


If the factions represent the general populace, then it is a civil war.  It is 
not clear at all that any of the factions in somolia are supported by the population
at large.  Bosnia & serbia, on the other hand, it is VERY clear that the general
population is extremely divided.

Either way this is a moot point.  We *are* there, and we aren't going away.  
If you wish to think of this as the U.S. Invading another country, thats fine with
me.

Mike Kirby
Xerox Corp.
E-mail: kirby.roch803@xerox.com
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia
From: powers@xerox.com (Michael Powers)
Subject: Re: Don't be silly, please
Reply-To: powers@xerox.com
Organization: Xerox Corporation, Palo Alto
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 23:25:02 GMT

In article EMr@news.cso.uiuc.edu, bfrg9732@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Brian F. Redman) writes:
>
>Hmmm.... how about this... let's go back to the 30's and 40's
>in Nazi Germany. We can transpose your statements from above
>into this new locale. The people who were running Germany were
>human beings with human emotions also. The top level of their
>government was what I would define as evil -- genocide on such
>a huge scale would definitely qualify them for that. Of course,
>one could say that they were "...just a bunch of people trying
>to do a difficult job..." One could even argue that "gee whiz,
>they were efficient" or, as you put it, "...more often than
>not, doing a good job in general with a few errors that people
>love to point out [the meanies!]" So, transposing your argument
>to a new locale it is quite easy to declare "Hey, we were just
>following orders."
>
>
>Brian Redman
>(bfrg9732@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu)
>"What? Me worry?"

Let's transpose any remotely optimistic statement into the
Nazi Germany milieu and tear it to shreds. Come on, get a grip.
Reading the times requires a lot more than thrashing obviously
naive statements via weak comparisons to the Holocaust. Meanwhile,
above your screaming, the point is well taken. We must be 
involved in the actions of our elected and appointed officials 
who wield power. They must be accountable. At the same time we do not
need to make their service unbearable by creating a crucible 
through which noone (except Christ or Buddha) could emerge unscathed.

Michael



Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia,alt.desert_storm
From: jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala)
Subject: Re: Going to Somalia
Reply-To: jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 15:49:21 GMT

In article <1992Dec9.170220.10817@starbase.trincoll.edu>, nmiller@starbase (norman miller) writes:
>In article <1992Dec9.125236.3459@nntp.hut.fi> jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala) wri
>tes:
>>  I just wish the hatred and violence would be
>>targeted at the right target, ie. people like you, instead of any
>>random U.S. citizen.  Perhaps if enough of people like you were
>>killed, the rest would start doing something about the reasons.
>>
>>//Jyrki
>
>Bravo.  There speaks the unfiltered voice of what sometimes
>passes for left-activism.  Could have been uttered by Pat
>Buchanan or Tom Metzger.

This was in response to Norman Yarvin's article:

In article <1g17rkINN3gq@CATHY.NA.CS.YALE.EDU>, yarvin@cs (Norman Yarvin) writes:
>If I were the praying type, I would prefer to pray that anyone who shoots at
>our troops will meet a quick death, so as to be a good example to all the
>other meatballs thinking of trying the same thing.

I don't know who Pat Muchanan or Tom Metzger are or what
"left-activism" is, but when someone thinks that it's good to shoot
and kill people just for opposing the mighty U.S. armed forces which
invade their country supposedly to "restore hope", it'd only be fair
to treat them (ie. people like Norman Yarvin) the same way.

//Jyrki
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia