HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: amlsmith@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Andrew Smith)
Subject: Siege weaponry mailing list
Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 19:18:39 GMT

Hello, Sebastian here. 

I have spoken to several of you about the art of the siege, and with the
gracoius hospitality of Lord Miklos, there now exists a mailing list for
that purpose.

Below you should find information on the group and instructions to get
into the group...

Sebastian

----------------------------------------------------------------------
			SIEGE MAILING LIST
		   (Plan, hopes and dreams....)

	The siege mailing list is intended for the discussion of
pre-black powder methods of attack and defence of fortified positions. 
While the discussion of the downfall of the great siege engines caused
by the advent of portable, and powerful cannons, is important, I would
like this to be somewhat minimized.

	My thoughts is that this would be used to discuss the myriad of
topics applicable.

	Physics			Mechanics
	Materials		Construction
	Transportation		Terminology
	Historic evidence of use  - Manuscripts
				  - Texts
				  - Archaeological data

	Historical reconstruction
	Common myths, and misconceptions
	and so on.


	I would also like to be able to compile a database of books,
references, and data for later use.

	
	I would like to ask all who wish to participate, to try to
re-define the commonly (incorrectly) used words such as catapult and ballista.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
		Instructions for siege mailing list
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

To get onto the siege mailing list, just follow these real simple
directions.... hey, I got them right!  

Send mail to :    siege-request@bransle.ucs.mun.ca
and include a single line saying:

subscribe siege <your name here>

That's it!

Then to mail to siege simply mail your articles to:
siege@bransle.ucs.mun.ca

Don't forget, "i" before "e" except after "c".  :)

The affairs of the list will be archived on the FTP site at
bransle.ucs.mun.ca. Simply FTP in, give "anonymous" as a userID
and your full address as the password.

The archive will be under
 /pub/sca/siege.current  (current for the month)
 /pub/sca/siege.<date>	 (monthly archive)

Actually, there's a whole lot of good stuff there, so you might want to
look around anyways...!

----
Sebastian/Andrew Smith
amlsmith@morgan.ucs.mun.ca
From: ds4p+@andrew.cmu.edu (David Schroeder)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pennsic Land Plans
Date: 30 Aug 92 06:29:29 GMT
Organization: Doctoral student, Industrial Administration, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

Greetings good gentles --

Dafydd Cyhoeddwr (white@duvm.bitnet) notes that the plan Hal suggested
earlier -- giving the Kings of the Middle and the East each half the
land and letting them divvy it up as they see fit -- would be a bad
and ill-conceived thing because it would lead to quite nasty politics.

May I point out that in a way this is almost what happens NOW, save
for the fact that either the Crown of the Middle or of the East gets
ALL the land in a given year (the year that kingdom is responsible
for autocratting Pennsic).  Kings and Queens select Pennsic autocrats
who then (if they are wise, these days) select land czars who ARE
responsible for doling out territory -- and you'd better believe
that political and (to some degree) feudal concerns still influence
the process.  

I believe our "wisdom" concerning ways to distribute land at Pennsic 
is growing every year (and "bad" years are sometimes MORE instrumental 
in adding to that wisdom than good ones, I'd bet). This was a _good_
year.  In a way, constantly changing the rules means that no single
strategy for BEATING those rules can be refined.

I'd also like to note, once again, that "politics" is not and should
not be a "bad" word without a modifier attached.  "Evil" politics 
are to be deplored -- but not _all_ "politics" are evil.  Diplomacy,
statecraft, responsible compromising, and other ways of coming to
some workable balance of opinions without bloodshed are all forms
of "politics."  

May Fortune smile on you all -- much obliged -- Bertram

+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
Bertram of Bearington                                      Dave Schroeder
Debatable Lands/AEthelmearc/East               Carnegie Mellon University
INTERNET: ds4p@andrew.cmu.edu                         412/731-3230 (Home)
+------------------------ PREME * Press On * PREME ---------------------+
      "He indulged in every excess, yes in each licentious whim..."
From: Suze.Hammond@f56.n105.z1.therose.pdx.com (Suze Hammond)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: COVINGTON CROSS
Date: 27 Aug 92 05:30:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: therose.714969221.F00004

AM>  From: habura@vccnorthb.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura)
AM>  Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
AM>
AM>  I, on the other hand, hope it *doesn't* die, smellily or otherwise.
AM>  Think of
AM>  it as indirect PR: if somebody's watching _Covington Cross_, they may
AM>  be more
AM>  inclined to see us as a hobby group, rather than some sort of
AM>  Satanistic cult.
AM>  None of us have to watch it to have it help us.
AM>
AM>  Alison MacDermot

Well, I rather enjoyed it. Not as any sort of medieval story of course, but 
as a sort of cross between Robin Hood; Prince of Thieves, and Monte Python.

Suspend your disbelief and watch it...if it were to *succeed*, sooner or 
later some producer would be able to sell the TV execs on the *real* thing.

(Does anyone remember how bad TV science fiction used to be? Now we have 
Star Trek; the Next Generation. :)

And they shoot it in real castles!

Moreach 
 
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: SHICOFF@unc.oit.unc.EDU
Subject: re: Ilaine's suggestion...
Organization: The Internet
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 23:13:00 GMT

Ilaine,
I've tried that.  It is invariabley not accepted
as sufficient.  I can't blame them, they want to know
where they can go look it up, so they can use it
in documentation.  They want to know book, author, &
if I knew it, the ISBN.  Well, that IS what you need
to look a book up with...  So the conversation goes
off into things I'd rather not talk about when performing.
I suppose I could make up little cards with the documentation
on them, & just slide them into people's hands.....
I suspect that I would be forever losing the little
cards, tho.
Julitta
From: mike@xenlink.cuc.ab.ca (Mike Johnson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Covington Cross
Date: 27 Aug 92 18:18:40 GMT
Organization: The Internet


	As several people have emtntion this show has a number of 
errors you could drive a large oop 16 wheeled dragon through. It however is
better than or as good as much of what you see on TV these days. If you
ignor the problems it does have possibilities. Given time I hope it 
will improve. 
	I would also like to mention that on CNN either the producer or
the director mentioned that the original idea was to take a proven TV
venue the Western (specifically the Ponderosa I think) and move it to 
the 1300's.  Add 90's politically correct necesities and you get what 
we saw in that 1st episode. If that is not corrected it will die an
early death. If the British crew get to play with it it will probably get
better. (British series seem to have resisted the need to put a 90's view
on everything better than the American)

Lordship Sgt. James D'Orleans 
		MKA Mike Johnson at mike@xenlink.cuc.ab.ca
	Norman pig,Saxon Dog they're all just a bunch of Land Hungry Animals.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: d-harper@Micor.OCUnix.on.ca (Diane Harper)
Subject: Sir Kenelm Digby's Closet
Organization: M.B. Cormier INC.
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 92 11:36:30 EDT

Siobhan writes:  Where can I find the book Sir Kenelm Digby, his Closet 
Opened?
This is now available from Falconwood Press.  It sold at Pennsic for 
about $17 US.  Merchants advertising in TI (such as Longship Trading 
Company and Medieval Miscellanea) carry Falconwood books, if you choose 
not to order directly.

Siglinde Harfnerstochter                Diane Harper
Barony of Skraeling Althing             Ottawa, Ontario
                                        d-harper@micor.ocunix.on.ca
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: bunny round and other weird words
From: rodmur@ecst.csuchico.edu (The Terminally Bored)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 21:34:37 GMT
Organization: California State University, Chico

In article <BtnItz.By0@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher) writes:
>I have never encountered either the term "bunny round" or the thing itself
>outside of the West and Caid.

I don't know if the name is used outside the West but I know that Duke
Jade of Starfall likes to use a "bunny round", and it seems to be a
shield of preferance with Misties in general.

Wolfgang Rotkopf

-- 
   __        _                                       Dale A. Harris
  /  )      //                           /            rodmur@ecst.csuchico.edu 
 /  / __.  // _      , , , __.  _       /_  _  __  _   {Internet}
/__/_(_/|_</_</_    (_(_/_(_/|_/_)_    / /_</_/ (_</_ Watch where you step
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: sommerfeld@apollo.hp.com (Bill Sommerfeld)
Subject: Re: Historical Accuracy (was Re: COVINGTON CROSS)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 16:46:09 GMT
	<1992Aug26.172137.10374@hubcap.clemson.edu>
	<1992Aug26.193248.6541@zip.eecs.umich.edu>
	<SHAFER.92Aug26213903@ra.dfrf.nasa.gov>
Organization: Hewlett Packard

In article <SHAFER.92Aug26213903@ra.dfrf.nasa.gov> shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer) writes:

   On 26 Aug 92 19:32:48 GMT, charles@zip.eecs.umich.edu (Charles Jacob Cohen) said:

   C> Everytime, and I mean *everytime* I see a show with my SCA friends that
   C> has to do with the middle ages, they can never sit back and watch it, they
   C> have to nit pick every little detail and tear it to shreads.  

   It's not just your SCA friends, it's anyone with any real knowledge
   about the topic being portrayed.  ...

   And then there was "Top Gun"....

   Remember "The Six-Million-Dollar Man"?  That's an HL-10 that comes
   off the hooks of the B-52 and it magically transforms into an M2-F2
   to crash.  Many of us are compelled to snicker every time we mention
   this, but I'll bet most people never noticed it.  Did you?

Nope..

   I guess it boils down to "What you don't know, entertains you".

Or, perhaps, what *they* don't know turns their work into farce..

... having seen Jeff Schiller's hands "spliced" onto Cliff Stoll by TV
news editors during coverage of the Morris Internet Worm of '88 (they
just spliced a shot of Jeff's hand pointing at something on his screen
into the middle of an interview with Stoll; what makes it particularly
amusing was that Jeff was clearly wearing his MIT class ring, while
Cliff was at Harvard at the time..).

The closer I've been to a news story or equivalent, the more I've been
aware that the media Got It Wrong..

						- Bill
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Period songs and their content (very long, with primary sources)
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1992 20:20:29 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!  Dani wrote:

> That said, I have to agree strongly with the more general argument.  It's
> hard to identify the precise combination of musical conventions, word
> choices, themes, and sensibilities that makes a song 'period-sounding',
> but one learns to recognize it.  When you've listened to enough period
> music, and read enough period song, modern folk-songs stop sounding
> authentically period.  After a while longer, eighteenth-century folk songs
> stop sounding period.  The problem with most 'period-sounding' songs
> is that those presenting themselves are often fooling themselves.

Take care, Dani: you are treading dangerously close to the temptation of
"period mind-set".  With enough learning, we can hope to recognize
out-of-period elements in songs, but no matter how long we study, none of
us can ever hope to label EVERY song as period or not simply by hearing it.
After a great deal of work, one can get to the point of knowing the truth
about many songs, and being able to analyze others and make a good guess,
but when it comes right down to it, we can't develop an innate sense of
what is or isn't period art.


Richard FitzGilbert wrote:

> Under this definition of period you make it impossible to compose new
> material that is period.  For my own definition of period, a song that is
> composed and presented exactly in a period fashion is period.  If I make
> a replica of a period pavillion, using period tools and period materials
> I call it a period pavillion.

I think there is a flaw in your analogy: There is a difference between an
exact reproduction and a new composition, no matter how closely it is based
on period models.  Unless it is _exactly_ the same, it cannot be a
reproduction of a period song.  By the same logic, a "period pavillion" is
one that is an exact reproduction of a period model; if you introduce
variations, or mix elements from several different models in an
undocumented way, then at best you have a "period-feeling pavillion."

The real question is what we mean when we talk about a period song (or
poem, or play, or pageant, or court ceremony, etc.)?  Ellisif's point was
that we are using that term is different ways, and that we would
communicate more effectively if we distinguish between songs that existed
in the Middle Ages (period songs) and songs that we, with our inexact
understanding of period methods, languages, and aesthetics, have fashioned
after the models of period songs (period-feeling songs).

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: awkerr@zia.aoc.nrao.edu (Alan Kerr)
Subject: safety for marshals (was: Re: Town Battle at the War)
Organization: National Radio Astronomy Observatory, Socorro NM
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 92 00:05:32 GMT

In article <eF8FqB2w164w@Control.Com> ics.vance@control.com writes:
<<<stuff deleted>>>
>I would rather see some arrangement where the marshals can keep an eye
>on the fighting without risking injury as in the Bridge Battle. Any
>suggestions that address the safety of the marshals would be much
>appreciated.

This is an idea that I've been kicking around for about a year now
and would like some feedback.  It would help *all* field
noncombatants.

In some heraldry, there are 'stains' which are basically a few
'natural dye' colors.  One of these is a rusty-orange color (I think
it's called 'tenne').

Now, for the rest of this article, I'll use the abreviation "SO", to
stand for "safety orange".  Now, I'm not sure that I really mean SO,
but I want a hue that is *bright* enough to be *quickly* recognized
but not so bright as to be *jarringly* out of place.

We get the BOD to allow SO for a *few* devices.  One for field
noncombatants (marshals, water bearers, field heralds, etc) and a
second one for (ummmmm???) "semi-combatants".  I'm not really sure
about *what* semi-combatants are because I've never seen them.  What I
mean by semi-combatants are those people that you can walk "X" feet
from and say "m'lord, you're dead".  I believe that some form of
archer is in this class and so would scouts. Is this right and are
there others that should be in this catagory?  A third device (and one
that might not actually be needed) would be used to mark the "edge of
the world" in things like Woods Battles.

When I say device, I'm thinking that it would be on the front and back
of a tabard.  However, perhaps a *wide* baldric (over 6" wide) of some
set pattern could be done.  ...*can* a baldric-like device be done
with proper heraldry?  I know there are rules for making various
'flags' (such as a standard or an ensign) from a device.

So, basically, these would be the *visual* equivallent of saying
>>*HOLD*, do NOT hit me<<.

So what does the Rialto think of this idea?  Any suggestions? (silly
me, of **course** there will be suggestions)

Aldric MacGlynn
College of St Golias
Kingdom of the Outlands


-- 
Alan W. Kerr                               awkerr@zia.aoc.nrao.edu
National Radio Astronomy Observatory       awkerr@nrao.bitnet
Socorro, NM, USA                           uunet!nrao.edu!awkerr
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: jeffs@math.bu.EDU (Jeff Suzuki)
Subject: homosexuality, same sex consorts
Organization: The Internet
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 23:46:12 GMT

Aryk writes:

>Having a same-sex royal couple would be interesting, and no doubt it would
>inspire massive amounts of tittering about which one is the true queen, and
>it would be very equitable treatement of the SCA's significant gay and
>lesbian minority.

And yet, so far as my luminous fog of memory recalls, same sex royal
couples are not historic.  Even "openly" gay Kings (some of the
Germans, some of the French, and a few English OOPs) had opposite sex
consorts for reasons of keeping up a good image.  

Part of the question is:  Whose SCA is it, anyway?  E.g., if we were
predominantly Attic, then homosexuality (male --- women don't
count) would be the desired ideal and heterosexuality was something
you had to do to keep the race going.  If we were Assyrian, well....

Footnote: From a questionable source (the People's Almanac, the
article entitled "A History of Sex") one of the Louis' of France had a
younger brother who, in order to keep him from being a serious
contender to the throne, was encouraged to be a transvestite.  He
seemed to relish the role.

Fujimoto
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: eadengle@watcgl.uwaterloo.ca (Ed "Cynwrig" Dengler)
Subject: Re: Pennsic Land Allocation
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 13:08:19 GMT

In article <Btuv9C.2FJ@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher) writes:
>One weird sicko comment on land allocation this year.
>
>The system worked pretty well for a complicated system being tried for the
>first time.  Many of the faults of the system can be traced to people being
>unused to it and to inefficient use of space, neither of which could be
>avoided under the circumstances:  it was the first time with a new system.
>
>I say:  tinker with the per-person space figure, but otherwise leave the
>same system in place.
>
>One modification:  require a deposit.  This year's system had a strong incentive
>to over-report numbers for a camp.
>
>Aryk Nusbacher

Another sicko comment about land allocation.

Several gentles have made comments that the land allocated is too little
for a small encampment of 1 or 2 people. How about a land allocation
based on the following formula:

        area = area1 + n * area2
            area1 = minimum amount of land to allow a cooking area
            n = number of gentles in encampment
            area2 = area of land per gentle

I believe this is somewhat a fair scheme in that it does allow a cooking
area for the smallest encampments, and also gives each gentle a section
of land for their pavillion.

Now, the only thing that is left is to argue over what area1 and area2 are!

Cynwrig the Wanderer

P.S. My personal guess is that area2 can be left at 235 square feet and
     area1 can be made about 100 square feet. The encampment I was in
     (House Venshavn == the Snake encampment on the Great Eastern Hwy near
     the swimming hole) was way under this years land allocation (about
     190 square feet a person was used for 15 people) and we had plenty of
     room for a common area.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: consort gender
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1992 17:41:24 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!  Anharat vz Rhuawn wrote:

> The point of inspiration, at least in the middle ages, wasn't just, or
> even primarily, to make the inspired hit harder and feel less; it was
> to create standards of honor and courtesy, to keep the fighters more than
> louts.

Quite so.  Medieval treatises on chivalry stress throughout that winning is
not the important point; competing well is the goal.  In a joust, honor
went to both knights, since both had taken risks and displayed skill and
resolve.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ca855@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Robert Allen Coody)
Subject: Chain Mail
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 92 21:10:01 GMT


Greetings Rialto and the known world. I am seeking a source of rings
for the production of chain mail, I am not in the mood for therapy
projects and if the rings are already made, I hope to avoid the rocking
and drooling effects of wire twisting.
-- 
Juan de los Caballeros
Time Traveler 1540-?
NAU CFN ETC...        "The Past Lives within the Present" Nemo nd
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: s7356911@deimos.ucc.umass.edu (DYLYN)
Subject: Re: REQUEST for Roman Clothing Sources-- Smithsonian request
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Keywords: honor
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 05:06:00 GMT

In article <4365@equinox.unr.edu>, tamela@equinox.unr.edu (Tamela Germano) writes...
>I think that the following books will help you in your quest for 
>information.
>   ......good sources deleted to save space .....

	One that I found useful is a rather old one, but still quite good
in its scholarship.   It is  _The Clothing of the Ancient Romans_ by
Lillian Wilson, Johns Hopkins Press, 1938.  It shows reconstructions of
Roman garments based on analysis of period literature, scuplture, and
one or two surviving pieces.  It's especially helpful in sorting out the
numerous types of cloaks worn.  (The pictures of men in tunica, toga and
wingtip shoes are hilarious, though).  It also has a front leaf with
a sample of the various shades of purple dyes available to the Romans.
Hope this helps.
				Marius Lugotorix Delenitor,
					aka dylyn

	"I hear they're dismembering people down the street--
					Those Joneses!  Ya gotta love `em!
	 Various disguises are regrettable but necessary,
				if you want to make it  through the day"
	   ---NoMeansNo, "Everyday I Start to Ooze"
		   dylyn (aka, d prosser) == S7356911@UCSVAX.UCS.umass.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: Pennsic Land Allocation
Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 15:19:54 GMT

I was looking at that chart of square footage or whatever, and I was amazed.
Maybe it's possible to discuss things in those terms on the Serengeti or in
parts of Tent City, but most of Cooper's Lake is pretty squiggly, and not at
all easy to fit into square footage calculations.

It might be necessary to open yet more space to camping in order to allow
lots of people to fit in with reasonable comfort, and that might require
further parking and a better parking shuttle, but otherwise the system in
place seemed workable on the whole.

As long as people know well in advance what the rules are, and can plan
accordingly, any consistent and fair system can be made to work.

One problem with current practice is common-use tents.  A kitchen, storage,
or bath tent makes any camp more efficient -- individual campers can have
smaller tents, if storage or cooking facilities are shared.  The current
system only counts tents which are inhabited.  Now, it should average out
that a big common tent and more small tents will take up as much or less
space as a bunch of larger tents, but if that doesn't work in practice, the
space allotment should be adjusted -- universally, and without use of
tax tables.

Aryk
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca