From: richard@paragon.folly.welly.gen.nz (Richard Parry)
Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Subject: ROBO-COPULATION
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 92 21:10:08 GMT
Reply-To: parry_r@kosmos.wcc.govt.nz
Distribution: world
Organization: Masterful Enterprises UnLimited.


In article <1992Nov7.054440.9980@highlite.uucp> mike@highlite.uucp writes:

 > Seems like everyone's trying to make themselves feel smart'n'hip by
 > writing snappy comebacks to this woman's complaints.

No, reasonable men who try to treat women as equals in everyday life are
getting pissed off at radical feminists telling them how to think, and
telling them that they are all a bunch of pigs who should fuck off and
die.

 > sexism of the hip young man of to-day isn't as blatant, but it *is* in
 > our language, and it may take a very very long time before it can be
 > eradicated.

Fair enough, but is reverse sexism the answer?

 > How many of us
 > guys would really make the effort to understand in detail (perhaps
 > even posing as a woman) what she is talking about? Is she to be
 > ridiculed just because she doesn't talk like you???

If you are talking of an experiment like in Black Like Me, then I'd say
not many - people simply don't want to do that sort of thing, for
whatever reason.

And who is ridiculing who?  Seems that this woman started ridiculing us
guys first around here.  The reaction is obvious; what did she expect?

 > Maybe close, but again not exactly what she said. I can agree that men
 > are NOT entitled to act in an arbitrary manner on some issues important
 > to women, such as abortion.

No one said anything about arbitrarily deciding on things.  However, we
all deserve to discuss things.  It is a fact that men should not have
the total desiciom about topics like abortion, but _neither_ should
_women_.  In our equal society, where men do in fact share the
responsibilities and burdens, they should also get a say in topics like
these.

 > It's sad what a history of oppression can do to people, isn't it?

Interesting, though, that the people who are trying to make it right
(todays women and MEN) are the ones taking the shit for it.  We did not
start this problem, and we are trying to end it - give us a little
credit.  For sure, some people are sexist, some are racist, and so
forth, but I hardly believe it is fair to judge us all by the examples
of a few.

It's also interesting to note how different people deal with it.  Some
do something positively, and others lay their problems at the feet of
others.

 > Sounds like you're describing yourself, Logan. Hey, just a few perhaps
 > overgeneralized but probably sincere comments and you've written this
 > woman (Paula?) off. Now she safely fits in that group of people you
 > don't have to listen to, eh?

"Overgeneralised but sincere"?  Oath, man.  She was slamming todays
white male to the hilt!

No man or woman gets my attention by coming up to me and abusing me.
Fairly common response.  Funnily enough, I tend to listen to those who
have a rational argument, and don't immediately blame ME for my fathers
misguided actions.

 > This isn't alt.strict.scientific.rationalism. There's flames and
 > arguments aplenty here. Maybe if someone, anyone, took the time to
 > think about what she is saying, *and imagine what must have happened
 > to her to cause her to think that way*, we might promote some
 > understanding and enlightenment on all sides. Perhaps you think she
 > sat down one day and concluded, just on general evidence, that all
 > men were bastards. I doubt it. We are all the product of our inter-
 > actions with others. No man can really and totally understand what
 > some women go thru. Not to say they can't try....

Exactly.  I can't say what Woman X is thinking and why, but I can try.
I spent  alarge part of my secondry school days trying to figure it out
- I took Classics, History, and othew subjects, with a bent towards
women's issues.  Asa  apart of the course, I had to try and think like
women, to understand them.  I can understand (only partially, I'll
admit) why she might think like this, but it's not my fault, and _I_
don't like being blamed for crimes I didn't commit.

But for your information, I have met several women who think that all
men are bastards, and they all (generalisations again :) seem to talk
this way.  The are the "men haters" that you often hear about.  They
have their reasons, which is fine, but they are not doing their cause
any good to alienate the very people they should be discussing their
problems with.  Sure, many men find it hard to discuss openly with a
woman, but _I_ am _not_ one of them, and don't care to be treated as
such.

 > >You don't know me.  You don't know for whom or for what I care.
 > >But I'll tell you one thing.  I don't care for your tone.
 > >You want equal treatment?  Try giving it for a change.

I'll agree with this, to an extent...

 > Maybe that's the problem. An historically oppressed group, be
 > they women or blacks or whatever, achieve some equality and we
 > expect them to be instantly forgiving and join us in our mind-set.
 > It's not fucking likely, and I can't really blame them...

I can't blame them either, but todays world moves faster than the world
of old.  Descisions like this can indeed be made and changed withing the
course of one lifetime.  There will always be racism and sexism, and
yes, it will always be a _two_ way thing.  We are not asking them to
join us in our mindset, but rather, to help us create a new one.  We
can't do this on our own, and we sure as hell aren't gonna try if we are
getting slapped in the face.

Women want to be treated as more than just a sex object, but men want to
be treated as humans too.  I for one don't want the label of oppressor,
as I fight against it everyday.  I realise that subconsciously, I am
both racist and sexist, and it is something I am working hard to change,
and in my rational actions, I am NOT a bigot.

Xref: sparky alt.cyberpunk:5667 alt.industrial:687 alt.sex:35732 alt.sex.bondage:21622