From: gross@befvax.uchicago.edu
Subject: Re: Sexist African Males
Reply-To: gross@befvax.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago, Dept of Molecular Genetics
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1992 20:34:58 GMT

In article <1992Apr12.010909.27043@casbah.acns.nwu.edu>, dowdy@tochtli.biochem.nwu.edu (Dowdy Jackson) writes:
>In article <1992Apr11.230025.26846@midway.uchicago.edu> gross@befvax.uchicago.edu writes:
>>In article <204751@unix.cis.pitt.edu>, pmmst8@unix.cis.pitt.edu (Paul M Mweene) writes:
>>>In article <1992Apr9.181844.21589@casbah.acns.nwu.edu> dowdy@tochtli.biochem.nwu.edu (Dowdy Jackson) writes:
>>>Well first of all europeans enslaved Africans and transported them to America,
>>>not Africans. Europeans seperated families, worked the slaves to death and
>>>killed them...not Africans. African slaves worked for this country for centuries
>>>>and made it what it is today via FREE labor due to the european slave traders
>>>and masters... NOT AFRICANS. There were jews involved in the capture and murder of other jews in the jewish holocaust but no one would dare imply that the
>>>jews were responsible or played a major partin the murder of their own people.
>>>This would only try to diminish the resposibility of the nazi's role. This is 
>>>true when whites try to say that Africans enslaved Africans for the slave trade.
>>
>>Your comparison simply does not work.
>>The Jews in Europe were under Nazi occupation, which means that were already
>>sentenced to death.  They gained nothing personally by cooperating.  Those 
>>who cooperated were often deported and/or killed as well.
>>
>>From what I understand, the Africans who participated in the slave
>>trade made money from the transactions, and were not themselves
>>subsequently sold as slaves.
>>
>>So every Jew in Nazi occupied-Europe was a victim, whether they 'cooperated' 
>>or not.  But not every African in Africa was a victim of slavery, and some 
>>who were not victims benefited personally from it.
>>
>>Leon Gross
>>I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV.
>>
>>
>>>Dowdy Jackson
>
>
>Where are you getting your information from ? You are making statements about
>something that you know nothing about ! Every African was at risk of being
>enslaved by the european slave traders ! I have relatives and written accounts
>in my family that talk about these kinds of things. It just angers me to
>think that white people just don't want to own up and admit that THEY are
>responsible for enslaving Africans ! NO ONE ELSE. My comparison about the jews
>was not from me but from a holocaust survivor ! NO one would blame the
>jews or say that the jews played a role in the murder of their own people
>but when it comes to African Americans...well anything goes. Thats bullshit.
>The comparison also shows that whites can not prove that Africans 
>enslaved Africans for the slave traders. Tell me where you are getting
>your information ? Souds like it is from the David Duke book of AmeriKKKan
>history.
>
>Dowdy Jackson

Before I address the original issue, 
I would ask in the future that you not refer to me and David Duke and 
/or the KKK, unless you are saying the relationship is adversarial.  

There is propaganda on the network put out by white-supremicist/anti-Semitic
groups.  They are connected with David Duke and the KKK.  These anonymous 
people from b-CPU (they use pseudonyms) spread their hatred on a variety 
of newsgroups by cross-posting the same articles over and over again.
The articles come from the NAAWP and the IHR, two hate groups with white-
supremicist connections, who share members with the KKK.  The people who
post this shit do not answer questions, post the same stuff over and over,
and refuse to give their real names. 
           
If you look at news.lists, you will see my name as one of the top 25 posters 
in the last two week.  That is because, almost without fail, I follow up
the articles from the hate group, explaining to people that although the
articles look like legitimate historical or news stories, they are actually 
propaganda from from hate groups.  I expose who they are by posting other 
information about who their sources actually are, and which other groups
they act as fronts for.  I tell the net which court cases they have lost, 
who their connections are, and what their motives are.  I do not debate 
them point by point and descend to their level, but I do continually 
discredit them, and there is such a need because some people have not 
realized the source and actually believed some of these white-supremicists' 
lies.  

I get mail from strangers, wanting to know more about how
to fight these people, and I have done research on these people so I
can expose them for the hate-full cowards that they are.  If you get
on any of the groups, and ask who does the best job of fighting these
white-supremicist anti-Semitic scum, people will refer to you to 
one of five people, and one will be me.  And if you ask the other 
four for more information or advise, they will mention my name.

If you want to help fight against this white-supremicist anti-semitic
propaganda, I'll tell you where it is, e-mail you information, tell you
who else has information, and snail mail you other stuff.  

I hope you realize that the statement that I would think anything of David
Duke or the KKK except contempt and hatred is ridiculous, and hope you
will retract it.  They hate probably me as much as they hate you just because
of our ethnicity, and because of my relentless criticism of them, and 
information that I have posted that is damaging to them, they now have
more reason to hate me.

Also, you will see that some of my posts were on soc.women.  Someone there
claimed that Carol Moseley Braun was a "sexist, racist Hilterite bigot."
I've been arguing with this asshole ever since.  I pretty much did it
alone, as the person was so ridiculous that very few took him seroiusly,
but I did get some fan mail.  In arguing with him, he said that the
she deserved to be criticized because she was targeting voters.  
I explained that all candidates do that, and she is being singled out,
so that he was sexist and racist.  He also claimed that the
Congressional Black Caucus was racist.  In order to find out what he 
thought I asked some other questions.  He believes that the NAACP is
racist, and he believes the league of Women's voters to be sexist.
He believes that Carol Moseley Braun is the moral equivalent
of David Duke.  He said I probably support the Klan because I support
Carol (I voted for her), and I support her, and he thinks the Klan
and Carol are equally racist.  

Do a one line post on soc.women, and ask who has been defending Carol,
and the NAACP, and the United Negro College fund against charges of
racism and sexism and who has been fighting this sexist racist ignorant
bigot.  They will give you my name.

This is all net stuff that you could verify.  The David Duke KKK comment 
makes no sense.

If you knew what I've done with my time for that last year or so down here 
South Side, you'd realize how a charge of racism makes no sense in 
my case.  If you e-mail me, I'll send you the phone numbers of my friends, 
and you can ask them if I'm racist in any way, shape or form.  I really 
don't think they'd be friends if I was racist. 

Back to the topic.  

Where does my information come from?  

I'll assume that you will accept Encyclopedia Britannica as an unbiased
authoritative source.  (It is the only Encyclopedia that the US court
system considers for 'indisputible evidence' regarding matters of fact.)

You can look the stuff up yourself, in the index under slavery and
under Africa.

I have typed the following in.  I have made no intentioanal changes to the
test, but their might be typos.

My claims are supported; some africans did benefit from the slave trade.

Micropedia, 1, 621  "Ashanti Empire"
"From the beginning of the 18th century, the Ashanti supplied slaves to
British and Dutch traders on the coast; in return they received firearms
for which to enforce their territorial expansion."
                      
Slaves take to Africa were purchased from Africans.

Macropedia, 13, p 81 "Africa, History, Guinea"
"The bulk of slaves taken to America were in fact purchased from African
middlemen on the coasts east and south of the Gold Coast.  Though 
politically the power of the Europeans hardly extended beyond the forts
and factories on the coast, the trade that they brought engendered a
political as well as economic and social revolution.  Whereas hitherto
the main centers of wealth and power in West Africa had been in the Sudan,
greater wealth was now found in the costal trade, and attempts to control and
exploit it led to the emergence of Guinean states similar to earlier
Sudanese states and empires."

Also Arabs were involved.  I don't know if you consider them white or not,
but they are not European.  Egypt is in Africa, so some people consider 
them African.

Ibid,"Africa, History, Sahara and Sudan"  p 80
[In the 19th century...]
"Egypt had embarked on the conquest of the Nilotic Sudan and, through the
slave and ivory trades, on its exploitation." 

Macropedia 17, p 853 "Eastern Africa, Tanzania, History"
"In the constant search for slaves, Arab traders began to penetrate
farther into the interior, more particularly in the southeast towards
Lake Nyassa.  ...Along this route ivroy appears to have been as great
an attraction as slaves, and Sayyid Sa'id ibn Sultan himself, after
the transfer of hist capital from Muscat to Zanzibar, gave every
encouragement to the Arabs to pursue these trading possibilities."

This does not exhaust all of the references.

Now I'll address your post.
>Where are you getting your information from ? 
Encyclopedia Britannica.  

>You are making statements about
>something that you know nothing about !
Not so.  But you were criticing me, while knowing very little about me.

>Every African was at risk of being
>enslaved by the european slave traders ! 
No, the Europeans only operated in many parts of Africa, and not all of Africa,
and certainly not all at the same time.  Africa is a very large content,
and the European control did not extend throughout it when the slave trade
was active.  And the Egyptians and Arab Africans were not at risk.  
But some black Africans were at risk of the Arab slave traders.  

>I have relatives and written accounts
>in my family that talk about these kinds of things. 
I'm not questioning the accounts of your family and have no intention
of doing so or insulting your family.  I'm having a discussion about
history, and I have supported my claims.

>It just angers me to
>think that white people just don't want to own up and admit that THEY are
>responsible for enslaving Africans ! NO ONE ELSE. 
If you are angry, don't blame the messenger.
The people who bought the slaves in order to bring them to American, and those
who brought them to American, and enslaveed them were all white.
No one is disagreeing with this.  If this is what you mean by
responsible, then you are right.  But this does not mean that all whites
are responsible. 

But if by responsible, you mean 'participated voluntarily for their own
gain,' then Encyclopedia Britanica disagrees with you.
No one else is responsible?  Are Arabs and Egyptians white?
Are you saying that *I* don't want to admit that I, or my people 
are responsible?  Do you know if I'm white?  Am I, or my family responsible 
for enslaving Africans or perpetuating their slavery?  Do you know my 
family history? 

>My comparison about the jews
>was not from me but from a holocaust survivor ! 
The fact that he/she is a holocaust survivor does not make him/her an
expert on African history.

>NO one would blame the
>jews or say that the jews played a role in the murder of their own people
>but when it comes to African Americans...well anything goes. Thats bullshit.
First of all, the hate group I mentioned above does blame the Jews.
Second, it's not that 'anything goes.'  It's just that it's not racist to
tell the truth.  If might not be PC, (I read alt.politics.correct),
but that's a different issue.  There may be people who say true things
for racist reasons, but you have no evidence that I am one of them,
and I have provided evidence that I'm not.

I said before that I don't think that the comparison works.  Did the
Ashanti consider the slaves they sold to be their 'own people?' 

Also, if you look in Britanica, you will see that there was slavery in
African society, as well as many wars between people.  It's not clear
that Africans regarded other Africans as 'their own people.'
That is why the comparison of 'helping murder own's one people' is
not appropriate.  

>The comparison also shows that whites can not prove that Africans 
>enslaved Africans for the slave traders. 
Apparently Encyclopedia Britanica believes that there is proof. And
that encyclopedia is accepted as evidence of fact in our courts.  I
could have found lots of books, but then I don't know whether other people
could find the same books, or whether they would accept them as objective.  
The encyclopedia was the easiest for me to find, and is probably the
easiest for others as well.
If I found a black author who would say that 'Africans enslaved Africans
for the slave traders' would that make a difference to you?

>Tell me where you are getting
>your information ? Souds like it is from the David Duke book of AmeriKKKan
>history.
Again, I'll ask you to retract that. I have provided a reliable source.
I'm sorry if you don't like what I have to say, but you're out of line here,
as someone else has already pointed out.

Now, since you asked me, fair is fair. Where are you getting your information?

You posted earlier something on Farrakhan.  Is that where your information
comes from?

You also said he was "an opponent of the Jewish community."  I gave you
a chance to explain what you meant through e-mail and you never did.
Would you please explain what you meant by this?

I'm not interested in a flame war.  I don't think I have made any personal
attacks, and do not expect any in return.

>Dowdy Jackson

Leon Gross
I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV.
Xref: sparky alt.discrimination:1634 alt.politics.correct:3707 soc.culture.african:1880