HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kdw@icd.ab.com (Kenneth D. Whitehead)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Mail Order SKS?
Date: 15 Dec 92 23:35:17 GMT
Organization: Allen-Bradley Company, Inc.

I just heard something on the news about some kid (I use the term generically;
I don't know his age, but I think he's a college student) who supposedly
bought an SKS through the mail and used it to shoot up a bunch of people.

HUH?  I thought you couldn't buy modern firearms through the mail?  Anybody
know anything about this?
From: bz269@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (James D. Del Vecchio)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: For gun control? No not really.
Date: 18 Dec 92 08:18:41 GMT
Reply-To: bz269@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (James D. Del Vecchio)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, betz@gozer.idbsu.edu (Andrew Betz) says:

>he should have located a friendly FFL and paid a $25 markup to
>the FFL.  centerfire systems has SKSs for about $120.

6 months ago I was on the verge of considering it when
one of the wholesalers was selling them for $69.  Now
they're back up near $100.

I've been thinking about advertising FFL services.  I want to set
a price that will maximally attract customers, (and of course still
be worth my while).  I've been thinking a fee about 10% of the price of
the item (total price = wholsale price + my fee + shipping + sales tax).

This seems fair, but I think that this will repel those interested in
higher priced items, who will be seeking someone with a flat fee.

Those of you who have advertised this service, what pricing strategies
have been most successful for you?

Jim Del Vecchio
From: elee7na@Rosie.UH.EDU
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Question on French Gun Laws
Date: 14 Dec 1992 18:59:27 GMT
Organization: University of Houston
Reply-To: elee7na@Rosie.UH.EDU
NNTP-Posting-Host: rosie.uh.edu

In article <6024@rosie.NeXT.COM>, robert_walton@NeXT.COM (Robert Walton) writes:
>
>A friend of mine has been asked to consider a possible move to Paris for a  
>couple of years as an ex-pat.  I suspect he will have trouble taking any  
>of his firearms with him, but I have no knowledge of French laws, or EC  
>laws if they exist on this topic.  Anybody out there know what firearms  
>can and can't be brought into France by a full-time ex-pat resident, and  
>in Paris in particular?  Comments on shotguns, rifles, and handguns,  
>nultiple actions, needed.
>
>Replies appreciated,
>
>Robert
>
>robert_walton@next.com

In order to have a weapon in France, you need to have a permit (to own).  That
permit can only be obtained after a background investigation which itself
requires that you be a member of some shooting range.  In other words as far as
I could tell it's pretty difficult.  The only exception might be for shotguns
if they are used for hunting.
Anyway, that's what I understood when I inquired a while back.  You should
probably check with the ambassy in DC.
From: an030@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Broward Horne)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: The basic problem with anti-gun nuts.
Date: 17 Dec 1992 23:24:03 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: an030@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Broward Horne)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, robin2@garfield.cs.mun.ca (Robin Collier) says:

>Thats Right!  The Royal Newfoundland Constabulary is the only police
>force in North America that doesn't carry arms.
>
>Robin Collier
>robin2@garfield.cs.mun.ca

    
       Hmmm.   Just *where* would this crime heaven be?

       I'm planning for the future.
          :)
>
>

Xref: sparky talk.politics.guns:25413 misc.legal:21485 misc.taxes:3846
From: bz269@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (James D. Del Vecchio)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns,misc.legal,misc.taxes
Subject: Re: Kalifornia (was: Re: Guns, Registration, and the Second Amendment)
Date: 18 Dec 1992 07:53:16 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bz269@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (James D. Del Vecchio)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, se08+@andrew.cmu.edu (Seth Adam Eliot) says:

	Re vehicle registration fees in Ca

>The solution is to pay all these imposed *taxes* using the IOU's that
>the state used to pay it's employees.
>I am not the originator of this idea, but I like it...

What has happened when people have paid their debts to Ca with
the same tender that Ca itself was using to pay its debts, Ca
state IOUs?

What would you expect to happen?  For example recipient of IOU 
tries to pay Ca tax bill with it?   Is there any legal precedent 
along this vein?

Jim Del Vecchio
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman)
Subject: Re: Bad cops - a perfect example
Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman)
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 13:15:41 GMT

In article <1992Dec17.000653.15695@ncsu.edu> hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer) writes:
>In article <1992Dec16.231632.24380@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov> Minh Lang <minh@inst-sun1.jpl.nasa.gov> writes:
>>In article <cm=rr9f@dixie.com> John De Armond, jgd@dixie.com writes:
>>...
>>> ...   Maybe one of his belligerant
>>>victims will put one right between his eyes one day.
>>
>>I  agree.
>>
>>  == Minh ==
>
>  Oh shit!  What kind of idiotic over-reaction is this?  The
>police officer clearly was being a bit over-protective and/or
>thin-skinned, but wasn't engaging in any of the really bad stuff
>which John has mentioned many times.  The "victim" in this case
>was acting poorly.  Whether my sympathies lie with the "victim"
>or the police officer is less important than understanding that
>this is a judgement call over a minor item, and minor items do
>not justify shootings.  This is not a "perfect example" of a
>"bad cop" because this minor item doesn't show that he's a "bad
>cop".

It's just this type of minor tyrany that cops get away with routinely
that makes them think they can get away with the "really bad" stuff
like the Rodney King beating and the beating death in Detroit. When
cops try to enforce their morality and ease their hurt feelings by
taking it out on the people they are sworn to serve and protect,
they cease being police officers and start becoming storm troopers.

>  I agree with John that poor behavior by an officer increases
>the chance that the officer (and other officers) will get shot,
>but I emphatically disagree with John's and Minh's implication 
>that minor items like this could possibly justify a shooting.

This particular behavior doesn't justify a shooting, but it certainly
justifies at least a suspension, and preferrably a dismissal from 
the force. Of course that won't happen, so the cop will continue to
abuse his authority until he comes up against someone who will try
to blow him away. Then there will be more cries to disarm the public
when the real villian in this piece is a cop with no respect for the
First Amendment.

Gary
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: ice@socrates.umd.edu (Fredrik Nyman)
Subject: Re: Mail Order SKS?
Organization: University of Maryland University College
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 02:20:27 GMT

kdw@icd.ab.com (Kenneth D. Whitehead) writes:

>I just heard something on the news about some kid (I use the term generically;
>I don't know his age, but I think he's a college student) who supposedly
>bought an SKS through the mail and used it to shoot up a bunch of people.
Ah, gotta love how the anti-RKBA media keeps news and editorials separate...

>HUH?  I thought you couldn't buy modern firearms through the mail?
You can't.  It's been illegal for decades.  Exception: If you have
a FFL (Federal Firearms License).  You can buy some gun *parts*
through the mail, mind you, but no, you can't buy all the parts
you need to build a complete gun.  I'm waiting to find out just where
"mail-order" got into the picture.  Maybe the guy bought a cleaning
kit through the mail and used his evil mail-order assault cleaning kit
to clean his evil assault rifle before going on his killing spree,
thereby making it an evil mail-order assault rifle?
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: jkapson@ad-29.Naitc.Com (John Kapson)
Subject: Downside to FFL?
Organization: AC Nielsen Co., Bannockburn IL
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 15:29:02 GMT


OK, 20/20 has established how easy it is to get an FFL; why aren't all
of us FFL holders?  What are the costs/drawbacks/restrictions/etc that
apply to FFL holders that would disuade someone (me, perhaps?) from
becoming one?

+-----------------------+-------------------------------------------------+
|      John Kapson      | "Americans have a right and advantage of being  |
| NRA               ILA | armed -- unlike the citizens of other countries |
| jkapson@nis.naitc.com | whose governments are afraid to trust the       |
|                       | people with arms."      - James Madison,        |
|                       | The Federalist Papers No. 46 at 243-244.        |
+-----------------------+-------------------------------------------------+
|                  PGP Public Key available via email                     |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: mikepb@lupus.dell.com (Michael P. Brininstool)
Subject: Re: An annoying defense question
Reply-To: mikepb@lupus.dell.com
Organization: Dell UNIX Support
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 20:25:06 GMT

In article <CTDONATH.92Dec9112018@mothra.syr.EDU>, ctdonath@mothra.syr.EDU (Carl T. Donath) writes:
>> 
>> I was pondering various home-defense scenarios, and was bewildered by one 
>> that seems to be possible but rare:
>> 
>> You're at home. Someone just walks in, starts wandering around, cuts the 
>> phone lines so you can't call the police (without leaving), and sits down
>> to watch TV or otherwise makes him/herself at home.
>> 
>> 1. It's blatant trespassing.
>> 2. No life-threatening acts occur, so you can't threaten him/her (legally)
>> with lethal force.

I guess that depends on the state you are in.  I believe here in Texas,
he/she could be shot because it is trespassing.  Anyway, if you have a
layered defense, such as some large dogs, he/she wouldn't be able to just
walk in and do this.  Once he/she cut the phone line, that is vandalism --
another shootable offense here in Texas, I believe.  Couldn't the cutting
of the phone line be a threatening act?  God, I love it here!

>> So what does one do?

Call the dogs off and blow him/her away!  Or let the dogs rip him/her
apart!  Or Hold them for the police while someone else calls the police.

>> --
>> ______________/ ctdonath@rodan.acs.syr.edu \______________________________
>> Most people agree that the government is largely sluggish and ineffective.
>> Then why do most people demand that it do everything for them?
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: msn@reef.cis.ufl.edu (Mike 'HK G3ZF Full-Auto' Newsome)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: 20/20, guns, FFLs, ( EASY )
Date: 17 Dec 92 14:57:36 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Univ. of Florida CIS Dept.

> >The ABC show 20/20 this Friday at 10 PM will target the "Evil FFL
> >holder" and how easy it is to get a license to traffic in arms to
> >the criminal community.
> 
> I just watched the show, and it wasn't as offensive as I thought it would be.
> The main thrust was about how easy it was to obtain an FFL, with an alias, or
> even as a Felon, because the qualification process is so easy.  Also, they
> used a few cases of FFL's being used to purchase illegal firearms for gang
> warfare, etc.  

	Why did 20/20 show a film clip of an M16 firing full-auto.
	( Maybe so ignorami will jump to the conclusion that this is
	what you can get if you have an FFL )  Stir up the rabble
	with a little fear, let them jump to conclusions...
	hysteria and stupidity are valubale allies to the anti-RKBA
	ilk.

	Why was their main thrust that rather than implementing a 
	fingerprint check, which they briefly mentioned, the FFL
	fee should be raised?   Hmmm.  That will sure keep those
	gang arming dealers from getting a license! ;-)

	The buzz word of that show was "to easy".  Getting an FFL
	is too easy.  Guns are easily bought.   Barf!

			Dooka yoroshiku onegaishimasu,
        ________                                    __  __  ______
       /  ____//__      msn@reef.cis.ufl.edu       / / / / / ____/
         /  //  //      Michael S. Newsome        / / / / / /__
          GUNDAM        3632 NW 46th Pl.         / / / / / ___/
        //  //          Gainesville, Fl.        / /_/ / / /
      //__//___/        32605-1046.            /_____/ /_/
        //______/       U.S.A.            The University of Florida
                                                  Alumnus

          Watashino hatano motoni watashiwa jiyuuni ikiru
From: bhv@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris)
Subject: Re: Vigilantes
Organization: Motorola, CCR&D, CORP, Schaumburg, IL
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 22:16:23 GMT

In article <1992Dec12.194841.8580@henson.cc.wwu.edu> n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:
)v117pdg8@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (DEMIAN) writes:

)>Why is it that America has the highest 
)>rates of homicide in the world?  
)
)	It doesn't and isn't even close.  Try Egypt vs US, Cairo vs NYC, or
)	Mexico vs US.
)
)Some 10.9/1,000 people die by homicide 
)>each year in the U.S.
)
)	Closer to 9 per 100,000.

I happen to have some data - a secondary source quoting Interpol,
International Crime Statistics, vols 1983-84 - apparently a 1984 survey.

This has crime rates of selected countries, and shows the US as the
leader in actual homicides of all listed at 7.9 per 100,000.  [Most
countries include attempted homicides in their data - the interpol
data separates it out into attempts and actual where possible.]  Data
for 'attempts' in the US was not available from my source.

Egypt has 1.0 homicides per 100K and 1.5 attempts.  Mexico isn't listed.
Northern Ireland has 4.0 homicides and 19.8 attempts, Chile has 5.8 
homicides and 6.3 attempts.  Our nearby neighbor Canada has 2.7 actual
and 6.3 attempts (all per 100,000 population).

My secondary source doesn't have all the countries unfortunately, but
there isn't any country listed that has a higher homicide rate.

[Northern Ireland was the next highest after the US, BTW.]

[Sorry, I don't get talk.politics.guns.  But I do get soc.men.  Murder isn't
as irrelevant to soc.men as it might first appear, since the vast majority of
homicide victims in the US *are* men.  Actually, I do view homicide as
more of a genderless issue, but I view the misperception of violence as
happening more to women than men as a genuine '24 carat' men's issue - it's
definitely one of my hot spots, anyway.]
From: dbernard@clesun.Central.Sun.COM (Dave Bernard)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Ruger bashing
Date: 16 Dec 92 12:58:53 GMT
Reply-To: dbernard@clesun.Central.Sun.COM
Organization: Sun Microsystems

SYSTEMM@BARNEY.ALHRG.WPAFB.AF.MIL writes:

>  In the letters to the editor in the current (DEC) Americal Rifleman, Bill 
>  says that the TV show (whch I didn't see) _severely_ took his remarks out
>  of context, and without other qualifying statements.  To wit, the remark
 

	Bill has had about four years since he made his statement, and
	out of context or not, this doesn't sound like a retraction.  In
	fact, this is the first I've heard of him responding at all to the
	thousands of letters he must have received, not to mention the
	derogatory comments in computer bulletin boards, clubs, etc... why
	has he taken so long?  Maybe the widespread shunning of new Ruger
	products is taking its toll...
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: cescript@mtu.edu (Charles Scripter)
Subject: Re: A Coffee-House Conversation with an Imaginary Nadja
Organization: Michigan Technological University
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 00:24:40 GMT

In article <LAMBERT.92Dec15191656@nankeen.spectrum.cs.unsw.oz.au>,
lambert@spectrum.cs.unsw.oz.au (Tim Lambert) writes:

> >>>>> On 10 Dec 1992 15:42:49 GMT, boucher@csl.sri.com (Peter K. Boucher) said:
> > (Tim Lambert) writes:
> >>Kennesaw Burglaries 1976-1986
> >>76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 48 85 86
> >>41 21 22 35 35 54 35 35 29 32 70

Just curious, Tim...  What are the expected statistical fluctuations
on these numbers?  Also, are these absolute numbers, or are they
normalized (per/100K or whatever)?  [if you posted this before, it
didn't make it here...]

> >>Fortunately we can distinguish the effect of these factors from the
> >>possible effect of the gun law.  The gun law is supposed to have had
> >>an abrupt effect, while the other factors would operate gradually over
> >>the whole period.  If some other factor (such as increasing
> >>population) caused the number of burglaries to double over the ten
> >>years, cancelling out a 50% drop caused by the law, then the graph
> >>would look like this:
> >>             *****
> >>        *****     *
> >>    ****
> >>****               *         *****
> >>                         ****
> >>                    *****
>>It doesn't.  Interrupted time series analysis is designed to detect
>>just this kind of thing and found no reduction associated with the
>>law.
>
> > What is this, a joke?  The graph you've drawn represents a 
> > generalization of the shape of the graph made of the numbers you
> > supply.  Are you hoping people won't look at any but the first and

As Peter pointed out, your expected data "If some other factor..." had
perturbed the system looks just like the data you presented.

You might be able to get around this problem if you can estimate the
statistical fluctuations of the system.  Then, rather than drawing a
line through the nominal measured values, you can draw your graph
within the error bars, and probably obtain a straight line (or more
likely, a constant)...

-- 
Charles Scripter   *   cescript@phy.mtu.edu
Dept of Physics, Michigan Technological University, Houghton, MI 49931
-------------------------------------------------------------------
With your one remaining eye, please do NOT look back into the laser
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: smpod@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: The basic problem with anti-gun nuts.
Date: 20 Dec 92 19:44:00 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: who knows
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

>In <1992Dec16.000100.22277@cs.mun.ca> robin2@garfield.cs.mun.ca (Robin Collier) writes:
> 
>>Boy, you really seem to think its everyones God given right to bear arms
>>Well, I guess I can't really associate with some of the problems you
>>may have in your neck of the woods, since not even the police carry guns
>>here.  But mind you, they can do some real damage with a baton.  
>>Thats Right!  The Royal Newfoundland Constabulary is the only police
>>force in North America that doesn't carry arms.

Newfoundland has one of the highest umemployment rates in Canada and the US.
I think it's greater than 20%.  It probably also has a low crime rate which
is another rebuttal that crime is caused by poverty.
From: lilianstrom@krang.fnal.gov (If its too loud,  You're too old)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Mail Order SKS?
Date: 16 Dec 92 14:14:21 GMT
Reply-To: lilianstrom@fndcd.fnal.gov
Organization: Fermilab Computing Division, Special Projects Group
NNTP-Posting-Host: krang.fnal.gov

In article <1992Dec15.210306.12201@icd.ab.com>, kdw@icd.ab.com (Kenneth D. Whitehead) writes:
>I just heard something on the news about some kid (I use the term generically;
>I don't know his age, but I think he's a college student) who supposedly
>bought an SKS through the mail and used it to shoot up a bunch of people.
>
>HUH?  I thought you couldn't buy modern firearms through the mail?  Anybody
>know anything about this?
>


According to the story in the local paper he purchased the rifle that day at a
local gun store.

			al

Al Lilianstrom
Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Batavia, Illinois
lilianstrom@fndcd.fnal.gov

My opinion.  Not the DOE's, URA's, or anyone else at Fermilab
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: Interview with William S. Burroughs and David Cronenberg
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 23:59:26 GMT

bz269@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (James D. Del Vecchio) writes:
: In a previous article, billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) says:
: 
: >n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:
: >: 	That's like saying that it was not because his aim was off,
: >: but that her head was too high.   There is no pistol that shoots low
: >: at 6 feet, and not that pistol, in any case.  Both the act and the
: >: excuse are incredible stupidity.
: 
: >All firearms shoot low at that range. It is the difference between the
: >height of the sight and the hight of the bore. The place where the bullet
: >actually passes through the line of sight depends on the sight-in distance.
: 
: 	A Star .380?  I would expect the sights on something like that 
: to be right on at 21 feet.   How much difference could there be between
: the point of aim at 6 feet?   
: 
: 	I admit I could be wrong because I've never studied the logistics
: of doing a William Tell act with a pistol, but still, "gun shot low" has 
: about the same weight as "head was too tall" as a valid excuse for failure
: to win the William Tell award.

Not much difference - probably about 1 inch. Neither, as you say, is a valid
excuse.

Bill
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr)
Subject: Re: Black Leaders
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 10:45:29 GMT

In article <f6=rb6=@dixie.com> jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond) writes:
}lvc@cbnews.cb.att.com (Larry Cipriani) writes:
}
}>All politicians do this.  I don't see much of Thomas Sowell or Walter
}>Williams in the media either.  Williams was on Crossfire or some such show
}>a while ago, but only as a guest.  I'd love to see him on as a regular.
}
}Anyone know where to reliably read these two fellows?

Sowell is a regularly contributing columnist to Forbes magazine.

Tim Starr - Renaissance Now! - Think Universally, Act Selfishly
starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu

"True greatness consists in the use of a powerful understanding to enlighten
oneself and others." - Francois Marie Arouet Voltaire
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns,soc.culture.japan