HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kdc5072@cs.rit.edu (Kevin D Colagio)
Subject: Rifle and Shotgun safe firearm handling course.
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology, Rochester, NY
Date: 8 Apr 92 08:28:51 CDT
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu

 I am not sure if this belongs here, but I thought I would post it. 

I am certified by the NRA to instruct safe firearms techniques in both
shotgun and rifle.  This includes target shooting, and trap.  I was
wondering if there are any parents out there who have children (or
you, if you are not comfortable with your level of marksmanship) in
the soon-to-be-hunting-age who would like to have me instruct them
(not that you don't have the ability, but if you don't have the
time...).

 I am unsure as to how much of a fee I would charge, but the "course"
is 14 hours long, so I am thinking about $85.00 (about $6.00 an hour).

 Note, I am in Rochester, New York and do not have transportation at
this time, while I realize that this is a major difficulty, something
may be able to be worked out...(I have restricted the post to western
New York)

[Moderator's note:  I post everything with world distribution since
folks out the area are usually interested too.  Especially with your
post since I think this is an excellent idea that other might want to
look in to.  tjr]

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-  Kevin Colagio...student at large -  I am looking   - In Gods we trust,      =
=               aka                 =  for something  - All others pay cash.   -
-         KDC5072@cs.rit.edu        -   to put here.  -      -Vladimir Taltos  =
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
From: loftis@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Kirk Loftis)
Newsgroups: rec.hunting
Subject: Re: varmint hunting in Nevada
Date: 15 Apr 92 13:46:29 GMT
Article-I.D.: doug.1992Apr15.084630.20074
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu

Hello Brian,

I am curious about not having a license in Nevada to hunt varmint.  Would
this include the use of dogs to hunt the varmint?  The dogs would chase
and kill the varmint, no guns.  What are the laws on this?

Thanks, Kirk
From: frampton@skitzo.dseg.ti.com
Newsgroups: rec.hunting
Subject: Re: .22 centerfires for deer?
Date: 15 Apr 92 13:45:59 GMT
Article-I.D.: doug.1992Apr15.084559.19965
Organization: Texas Instruments Component Test Facility
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu

In article <1992Apr13.083542.10398@doug.cae.wisc.edu>, microsoft!johnclif@cs.washington.edu writes:
> 
> 
> As another poster suggested, use the right tools for the job.  A hot
> .22 centerfire will kill a deer if the right bullets are used.  Winchester
> offers a loading specifically designed for deer and antelope in .223
> Remington.  If Nosler, Barnes, etc., made a controlled-expansion bullet,
> it would be fine.
> 
> However, the issue of using a .22 centerfire begs the question of why
> not use something bigger?  

  Good point. My sister-n-law shoots a .22-250.   She has never lost a
  deer (maybe because the .22-250 can be so devastating).
  
  I hunted with 6mm for up until I lost a deer when I was 15 or 16.  I
  decided then that my preferance would be .30 cal and at least 125gr.

  Not saying that I'll "never" deer hunt again with the 6mm, but I'd
  rather have a heavier bullet.  I hear that Sierra has come out with
  a 107gr HPBTM that may be worth looking into.

frampton
From: X005CB@tamvm1.tamu.edu (Chris Barnes)
Newsgroups: rec.hunting
Subject: Re: Self righteous ranting and moderators
Date: 9 Apr 92 13:02:59 GMT
Article-I.D.: doug.1992Apr9.080300.18695
Organization: Texas A&M University
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu


 
   I was going to reply privately, but Steve raises issues about
what this group should & shouldn't discuss.  *That* needs to be
discussed openly....
 
In article <1992Apr7.120801.6936@doug.cae.wisc.edu>
   ses@hpfcls.fc.hp.com (Steve Speer) writes:
 
>If your collecting votes, I'd like to see the long range shooting
>debate stopped in rec.hunting.  If I want to listen to a bunch of self
>righteous "you don't live up to my standards" B.S. I can post a
>hunting article to a non-moderated group.
 
 
    Figures you would want it banned; after all, people are saying
things you don't like (reason for the personal attacks ??).
 
 
>I suggest you do have the
>"groups" permission/authority to respectfully decline articles that
>attack another hunters character with the childish drivel that people
>like Chris Barnes and Steve Pickett have submitted.
 
 
    I do not know the moderator, but I suspect that he would be
extreamly hesitant to squelch a person or persons because others
on the list didn't like what they had to say.  As I recall, both
Steve and I made our points directly at the issue at hand (ie.
the ethics of 1200 yard shots) without attacking people personally....
(at least that was not *my* intention).
 
 
>[Moderator's note: when rec.hunting was created, there was an initial
>question about whether we could discuss hunting ethics as opposed to
>hunting morality.  The concensus was that ethics was a valid topic.
>This rasies many questions for me: First, where is the line between
>ethics and morality?  and second, how long should I let ethical
>questions continue?
>
 
My view:
1st:  ethics of hunting = the how's, what's, when's, and where's.
                              ---->  this discussion.
      morals of hunting = the if's (ie.  is hunting ok?)
 
2nd:  as long as people are willing to post on the topic.
 
 
>With this thread, I have been reluctently posting everything in the
>hope that it would die down quickly. If folks would like to like to
>suggest a different approach, I welcome their suggestions.
 
 
It seems ok as is (I believe this topic *is* dying down).
 
      ----------------------------------------------
Chris Barnes            |  "Success is the realization of your
x005cb@tamvm1.tamu.edu  |       worthwhile dreams" ---  Dexter Yager
(409) 846-3273 (home)   |  "A goal is a dream being acted upon"
(409) 845-8454 (work)   |                          ---  Don Wilson
From: toby@milton.u.washington.edu (Toby Bradshaw)
Newsgroups: rec.hunting
Subject: Re: Long-range hunting
Date: 6 Apr 92 14:20:25 GMT
Article-I.D.: doug.1992Apr6.092026.8754
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu

>tb> Since you agree that the range at which one actually shoots
>tb> is arbitrary, why does the magic number 1200 seem unethical
>tb> to you?
> 
>sp> Because that seems like a very long shot to me. What makes
>sp> you think a 1200 yard is ethical?
> 
>   It is unethical for the same reason as I mentioned before
>(a point you have failed to address).  Namely that is ignores
>the concept of "fair chase".  Even hunting from a tree stand
>over a deer feeder have an element of fair chase in it; 1200 
>yard shots do not.

I failed to address your point because the definition of fair
chase is arbitrary.  The Boone & Crockett rules of fair chase
for trophy hunting allow shots of any distance.  You say 1200
yard hunting is not fair chase.  I disagree.
 
>   So your next question would probably be "so what range IS
>ethical?".  Answer:  it depends.  It would obviously be longer
>if you're hunting antelope on the plains than it would if you
>were hunting whitetails in the woods.  For deer I would
>have to guess that anything over 200 yards is pushing out on
>that barrier (although there may be times when the distance
>could exceed that, it would never exceed it by a multiplying factor).

Antelope hunters in Wyoming are grinning at the notion that 200
yards is a long shot.  Certainly a good scoped rifle in a fast-
stepping cartridge can place a killing shot at 400 yards (multiplier
of two over your arbitrary ethical barrier) with no allowance for
bullet drop.  Why is that unethical?

>    It seems intresting to me that I am carring on the same type
>of discussion on 2 separate lists (the other being tx.politics).
>Namely, answering the question "Are morals (ethics) absolute or
>relative?".  I beleive they are absolute, and that they apply
>to everyone; whether you choose to hold to those ethics or not
>does not change whether or not the ethics of the action itself.
>But this argument is better served by another list.....

Ethics are not absolute, else all reasonable people would
share them.  Maybe I'm not reasonable, eh  :-)
 
>      ----------------------------------------------
>Chris Barnes            |  "Success is the realization of your
>x005cb@tamvm1.tamu.edu  |       worthwhile dreams" ---  Dexter Yager
>(409) 846-3273 (home)   |  "A goal is a dream being acted upon"
>(409) 845-8454 (work)   |                          ---  Don Wilson

Toby
Newsgroups: rec.hunting
From: jds@sequent.com (Jerry Simmering)
Subject: Re: Moderator's comment on woodpeckers
Organization: Sequent Computer Systems, Inc.
Date: 13 Apr 92 08:36:33 CDT
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu

In article <1992Apr10.092300.28075@doug.cae.wisc.edu> you write:
>I have also been discouraged by the replies to the woodpecker thread.
>I am beginning to wonder why I even let the original post through
>since it has nothing to do with hunting.  I was hoping that the
>rec.hunters would provide some nonlethal suggestions.
>
>However, I am getting more encouraged.  After one or two posts
>suggesting a .22, numerous replies have pointed out how unethical and
>illegal that would be.   I believe the condemning replies are more
>typcial of hunters.
>
>I have decided to stop this thread.  It has left the realm of
>rec.hunting.
>
>Tim Rigg (Moderator of rec.hunting) 
>
>

  Tim - you might suggest that the original poster ask the rec.birds
  group for advice. I read that group and there are quite a few very
  knowledgable individuals there. I know there are better ways to approach
  this problem than killing the bird.
-- 
===============================================================================
Jerry Simmering                        | GO Portland Trailblazers!   
Sequent Computer Systems, Inc.         | GO Atlanta Falcons! 
Beaverton, Oregon.                     | GO Georgia Bulldawgs!
                                       | GO Atlanta Braves! 1991 NL Champs!    
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Barefoot girl sittin' on the hood of a Dodge drinkin' warm beer in the soft
 summer rain." - BRUCE - Born To Run.............
===============================================================================


Newsgroups: rec.hunting
From: voodoo!tomm@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Tom Mackey)
Subject: Re: 7mm Mag in lever action? NEED ADVICE!
Organization: Boeing Graphics project, Bellevue WA
Date: 10 Apr 92 09:21:11 CDT
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu


In article <1992Apr6.091936.8577@doug.cae.wisc.edu> sl45z@cc.usu.edu writes:

>	I was recently shopping for a deer rifle when I came across a
>Browning 7mm mag. in a lever action.  It felt very comfortable and I
>liked it more than anything else I shouldered.  I just don't know
>anything about lever actions in a large cal.  I know Browning is an
>excellent brand, but I want to know more about the 7mm mag. and how it
>is in a lever action.  I shoot left handed, even though I'm right
>handed. Will that cause any problems?  Will the action smooth out, or
>will I just get used to it.  (seemed to take a lot of strength) How
>about accuracy?  Will I be giving any up, not going with the bolt?  I
>have the ballistics for the 7mm mag. so feel free to refer to them to
>prove a point.  I'd like to know if a lever action would be better in
>another cal. also.

>		TC                 


I can offer this one data point: My dad had a Winchester Model 88 in
.308 cal.  It's quite accurate -- maybe 1 1/2 inches at a hundred
yards.  The action is smooth, and seems strong enough.  I can also
testify that it worked on at least one deer that I know about %^).  My
only fault with this rifle is the basket weave checkering.  Not my
taste.  However, since my dad has passed on and the rifle is now mine,
I'd be hard pressed to part with it.

Well, maybe one more data point:  he also had a Winchester Model 94 in
.32 WSpcl.  I once took it out on a whim as a backup gun and was very
pleased that I could shoot a nice tight group at ~85 yards with iron
sights.  I don't remember how tight, but remember thinking at the time
that I would be able to hit what I aimed at.  Maybe a bit less than 2 in.?

This may all be a bit off the subject, but maybe it'll help.
-- 
Tom Mackey       (206) 865-6575        tomm@voodoo.boeing.com
Boeing Computer Services         ....uunet!bcstec!voodoo!tomm
M/S 7K-20,     P.O. Box 24346,     Seattle, WA     98124-0346
                    -Save Teddy Bear Cove-
From: tag@icf.hrb.com (Thomas A. Glass)
Newsgroups: rec.hunting
Subject: anybody used new Hoyt?
Date: 6 Apr 92 14:19:54 GMT
Article-I.D.: doug.1992Apr6.091954.8643
Organization: HRB Systems, Inc.
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu

I'm looking into buying a Hoyt Super Slam w/Fastglass limb. Has anybody
tried one of these? Any feedback would be appreciated. Also has anybody
seen or used the new XX78 arrows from Easton I was wondering what they 
are like.


Tom Glass
State College, PA
Newsgroups: rec.hunting
From: J.M.Spencer@newcastle.ac.uk (Jonathan Spencer)
Subject: Re: 22 center fire and remaining energy
Organization: University of Newcastle upon Tyne, UK, NE1 7RU
Date: 13 Apr 92 08:35:51 CDT
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu

SCHULTZ@admin1.usask.ca (Robert Schultz) writes:

>In Saskatchewan we are legislated to calibres greater than 23, i.e.
>eliminates all 22's for hunting. The only 25 lb deer we have are the
>"young ones", i.e.  bambi's.

>However, I was quite suprised by Jonathan Spencer's note that in the
>UK they require 1700 ft-lbs @100yds. As some of you may know, I am

Without looking it up, I believe it's correct but that figure might be
muzzle energy. What is for sure, is that the Scots can use .22
centrefires on roe (but we English canot), and the German law permits
"not less than 5mm" producing "not less than 1000 joules at 100
metres".

===========================================================================
>From  : Jonathan M Spencer
Mail  : Computing Lab., University of Newcastle-upon-Tyne, NE1 7RU, England
Phone : +91 222 8229
ARPA  : J.M.Spencer%newcastle.ac.uk@cs.ucl.ac.uk
JANET : J.M.Spencer@uk.ac.newcastle
UUCP  : !uknet!newcastle.ac.uk!J.M.Spencer
===========================================================================


Newsgroups: rec.hunting
From: webdw@mvutd.att.com (Bruce D Woods)
Subject: Re: How do I catch a woodpecker?
Organization: AT&T
Date: 10 Apr 92 09:23:10 CDT
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu

In article <1992Apr9.080412.18900@doug.cae.wisc.edu> ceng@mdd.comm.mot.com (Curtis Eng) writes:
>In article <1992Apr8.083504.1572@doug.cae.wisc.edu>, ceng@mdd.comm.mot.com (Curtis Eng) writes:
>|> In article <1992Apr7.120835.7039@doug.cae.wisc.edu>, webdw@mvutd.att.com (Bruce D Woods) writes:
>|> |> 
>|> |> Get up early in the am with your rifle w/ .22 birdshot.  One shot
>|> |> that doesn't make much noise and the problem is gone.  (A termite
>|> |> exterminator ???)
>|> |> 
>|> |> BDW
>|> 
>This sounds like a very attractive idea.  I know Remington makes a .22
>shotshell because I've used some before.  After Woody torments me and
>I run out to chase him away, he goes into some trees just off to the 
>north of me.  These trees are about 20 to 60 yards away from the side
>of my house which has a nice convenient window that I can assassinate
>Woody from, but this range is too far for my weeny pellet gun but perfect
>for my Ruger 10/22.  My next question is this.  How far will .22 shotshell
>keep a tight pattern and what is the hazardous range of the stuff? (there
>are some houses about 150 yards behind the trees).


My recollection the last time I test fired one is that the
effective range is 25 yds.  Beyond that you're talking luck.

Please pattern before you guess or take anyone's word for it.

BDW
From: roa@davinci.acc.Virginia.EDU ("Robert O. Anderson Jr")
Newsgroups: rec.hunting
Subject: Sights, etc.
Date: 9 Apr 92 13:03:28 GMT
Article-I.D.: doug.1992Apr9.080329.18814
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu


        Anyone use a "Sightmaster" bow sight?? It has just one sight pin 
that you adjust with a control arm OR you can BUY the Touchmaster
fingertip control. 
        There seems to be a few of the fellows using them......just curious.
oh, and Rope Releases....does any one hunt with a rope release?? and can
relate any positive or negative stories...

thanks

bob
Newsgroups: rec.hunting
From: quezon@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Antonio Quezon)
Subject: re:  Shooting woodpeckers
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD
Date: 10 Apr 92 09:23:34 CDT
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu





   For the past month, a woodpecker has been coming around between
   7:00 a.m. - 8:15 a.m. and pecking the hell out of my house.  I
   already tried putting up owl decoys and stuff like that but that
   only worked temporarily.  I want to kill the woodpecker but I can't
   very well run out of my house and shoot it because my neighbors might
   see me and report me or something like that.  Does anybody have any
   ideas on how I can put some sort of trap on my roof to catch Woody?

   Get up early in the am with your rifle w/ .22 birdshot.  One shot
   that doesn't make much noise and the problem is gone.  (A termite
   exterminator ???)

   This sounds like a very attractive idea.  I know Remington makes a .22
   shotshell because I've used some before.  After Woody torments me and
   I run out to chase him away, he goes into some trees just off to the 
   north of me.  These trees are about 20 to 60 yards away from the side
   of my house which has a nice convenient window that I can assassinate
   Woody from, but this range is too far for my weeny pellet gun but perfect
   for my Ruger 10/22.  My next question is this.  How far will .22 shotshell
   keep a tight pattern and what is the hazardous range of the stuff? (there
   are some houses about 150 yards behind the trees).




Are these attitudes, opinions, lack of identification skills, and lack of
knowledge of federal statutes typical of all hunters?

If you don't know what kind of critter you are looking at, how can
you even consider shooting it?  With the exception of European
starlings and house sparrows, all birds are protected by the Federal
Migratory Bird Treaty Act.  If you don't understand what that means,
let me make it clear for you.  It is illegal for you to shoot a
woodpecker regardless of what kind it is.

I certainly hope these attitudes, opinions, and views are not
representative of the general hunting population.  If it is, then
hunters are living up to their bad rap.

A.J. (Tony) Quezon
Carderock Division
Naval Surface Warfare Center (CDNSWC)
Code 1282
Bethesda, MD  20084-5000
Work: (301)227-1645
Home: (703)435-3965
From: robinson@ac.dal.ca
Newsgroups: rec.hunting
Subject: Re: Long-range hunting
Date: 6 Apr 92 14:20:07 GMT
Article-I.D.: doug.1992Apr6.092007.8688
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu

In article <1992Mar31.082751.23280@doug.cae.wisc.edu>, cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (Chris Luchini) writes:
> In article <1992Mar30.071355.12061@doug.cae.wisc.edu>, toby@milton.u.washington.edu (Toby Bradshaw) writes:
> [ much deleted]
>> Personally, I would rather
>>have Dan Lilja shooting at an undisturbed elk at 1200
>>yards than many of the elk "hunters" shooting at a running
>>animal at 100 yards with a rifle that couldn't hit a sombrero
>>at 50 paces and hasn't been cleaned sice Christ was a pup.
>>How do you factor in the skill of the hunter, or do you draw
>>an arbitrary range limit for everybody?
> 
> 
> 	I know I'm going to get roasted for this, but I think there
> 	should be a _mandatory_ skills test for all big-game hunters.
> 	You would have to know the safety rules, hit a game animal
> 	target from standing (not a bulls eye, but something that
> 	looks like a game animal, so you have to pick where you think
> 	the vital area is), and xxx yards away, 3 out of 3 times
> 	in the vital area. If you don't pass, you don't get your license.

You won't get roasted by me.  I'm strongly in favor of education, provided 
it isn't established as a way for the government to enforce arbitrary 
restrictions.  I think what you suggest is good.

I personally have tried, through reading, practice and personall 
observation, to learn as much as I can about deer hunting.  Here in Nova 
Scotia we have mandatory 3 evening hunter safety courses.  I, personally, 
found the course contained very little that I didn't know (some of the 
woodsmanship and survival skills sections were informative) but I didn't 
resent taking it.  If I recall correctly a passing mark on the final exam 
was 70%.  I think I got either 97 or 99, can't remember exactly which.  I 
took it over ten years ago.

Which raises another point.  I think one should have to retake this course 
periodically.  Maybe every 10 or 20 years.  I certainly don't think one 
should have to be bothered with it every year.

There is a separate course for bow hunting, which I also think is a good 
idea.  Last time I checked the courses were free, but that may have 
changed.  They're run by the Dept. of Natural Resources I believe (our 
wildlife department) and a little advanced planning is advised on the part 
of participants.

> 
> 	I've seen too many bad shots, badly equiped, and unprepared
> 	'hunters' out there to think that American hunters can be
> 	trusted to know what they are doing in the field.

To borrow from the title of a book I saw recently, Hunting is Perfectly 
Natural, but not Naturally Perfect. :-)

> 
> -Chris L
> *1110 W. Green/Urbana IL 61801/217-333-0505/cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu  
-- 
John Robinson                  Only criminals, tyrants, and cowards have
robinson@ac.dal.ca                 reason to fear the armed, honest citizen.
DOD #0069
From: cvacura@uswat.uswest.com (Craig Vacura)
Newsgroups: rec.hunting
Subject: Re: How do I catch a woodpecker?
Date: 6 Apr 92 14:21:09 GMT
Article-I.D.: doug.1992Apr6.092109.8917
Organization: U S WEST Advanced Technologies
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu

Same thing happened to me when I was a kid.  My folks have a log home.  At 
about 5-5:30am these two huge woodpeckers would start banging away.  These 
things were 10-12 inches tall and were real colorful with a wild looking 
crest.  I was going to apply bird shot until I saw them.  They were the 
most exotic birds I have ever seen.  So I became the human stalking scare 
crow.  I woke up early every morning, snuck up, and scared them away as 
energetically as possible at 5am.  I liked to yell alot to let everyone 
else share in my wonderful task.  After a few days the birds left.  

Try calling the Audobon society.  They're bound to leave then.  8 <: )

God Bless,

Craig