From: palmer@isye.gatech.edu (Michael T. Palmer)
Newsgroups: rec.nude
Subject: Re: Uptightness about sex & ...
Date: 12 Aug 92 23:12:17 GMT

williamt@athena.Eng.Sun.COM (Dances with Drums) writes:

>In article <palmer.713644413@isye.gatech.edu> palmer@isye.gatech.edu (Michael T. Palmer) writes:
>>Wat seemes to not have picked up on the part about BBQing at the beach.
>>Since he says he is a vegetarian, and that the smell of roasting animal
>>flesh displeases him, I expected him to agree with me that he would seek
>>out beaches where BBQing (or any cooking) wasn't permitted.  The BBQ
>>people would go to BBQ beaches, and he would go to his.

>    The problem with your solution is that some people have allergies
>and/or dislikes of various smells and various levels of bathing suits.
>Eventually you are going to need beaches that segregate by swimsuit type
>-- are thongs permitted or not?  Are bikinis permitted or not?  Is
>perfume permitted or not?  Is tanning lotion permitted or not (what if
>someone doesn't like or is allergic to palm oils?) Is food permitted or
>not?  Further segregating could be by food preference, drink preference,
>music preference, drum/no drum preference, sex (males or females only),
>sexual preference (gays or straights only or both), reading preference
>(none, and/or type), race (hey, if I find Irish people offensive, why
>shouldn't I have a segregated beach?!), cussing/no cussing,
>talking/no-talking, type of sexual activity (solo, couples, group, B&D,
>S&M, etc.), religious preference, -- hell, why not even looks -- maybe
>blondes-only beaches (so labels could be added -- like "water", "sand",
>"place towels here"...:-) -- I can make jokes like that, I'm blonde!),
>etc., etc., ETC!

>    Where do you stop?  When every last person on earth has their own
>beach?  Of course you sit back and say -- william is going overboard
>again.  Is he?  What you are saying is that because some people get
>offended in a particular area, we should segregate them based on their
>preferences -- what offends them.  On that basis, you could logically
>have the Mormons in Utah have a Mormon-only beach -- they are a majority
>-- therefore they can do whatever they please!  Is that 'right'?  

Gee, since "my" solution is the way the system works *now*, how did we
ever get along??

Yes, you went overboard.  It is not sufficent for just a few people to
want something to get ANYthing changed ANYwhere.  If you have a
different point of view, you have to convince your city council members
that what you want is both logical and fair.  This is how the excesses
(like blondes-only beaches) are screened out.  See?  The stopping
condition isn't so tough after all.

Look, there are two approaches to making changes in the world around you
(like getting areas approved as clothing-optional).

1)  Be an asshole.  Do whatever you want at whatever section of beach
    you happen to be at.  Screw everybody else's uptight beliefs, right?
    That's THEIR problem if they don't want to see you having sex in
    public.  They're just uptight Traditional-Values People.

    Watch as the uptight TVP have you arrested.  Enjoy the next 3 years
    as Bruno the Butcher's personal love slave in the State Pen.

2)  Be considerate.  Accept the fact that other people's values are very
    important to them, and that if you piss people off they fight back
    (especially if they are the vast majority).  Petition your city
    council to allow whatever activity you want at all public places.
    They will probably say no.  Try to convince them that your activity
    is perfectly okay, and that if you can't do it everywhere then they
    should at least designate an area where you CAN do it, so others
    will be aware so they can avoid that area if the activity bothers
    them.  With the right homework and the right lobbying, you may
    succeed.

    If you fail, run for city council.  Lobby local businesses to allow
    you to put up fliers, etc.  Enlist the support of regional or
    national groups who share the same interests to support your campaign.
    Present your arguments to the citizens in such a way that they know
    you are not assaulting their beliefs as stupid (this is important!).
    Stack the deck so the next council vote goes your way.

This is how our system works.  I don't care if you like it or not.  If
you wish to live in this society you play by its rules or you will be
punished.  If you don't like the rules, try to convince enough people to
change them.  This is, I believe, why TNS has been successful.  They
work WITH the system, rather than calling everybody uptight prudes.  You
don't have to compromise your position to be considerate of other people
and their positions.

If you feel strongly that clothing-optional, public sex, or anything else
should not be restricted, then start applying some of your energy and
talents to making changes in the rules.  Don't just bitch about how you
should be able to do whatever you want because it's not your fault that
others' uptight prudish values cause them grief when they see you.

Now, maybe you already are working for change.  If so, I salute you for
your integrity.  If not, start editing the best parts of your postings to
this newsgroup into a coherent (and relatively short) letter, and send it
to all your local newspaper editors to get the ball rolling.

Mike
--
Michael T. Palmer, M/S 152, NASA Langley Research Center, Hampton, VA  23665
Voice: 804-864-2044,   FAX: 804-864-????,   Email: palmer@icat.larc.nasa.gov