HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us (Gary S. Trujillo)
Newsgroups: alt.native,news.groups,soc.culture.misc
Subject: Re: Comments on the 2nd RFD: soc.culture.native
Date: 26 Jan 93 20:18:19 GMT

I feel I can accept the version of the charter that Mike posted today,
even though it leaves unresolved the issue of what to do about the issue
of colonization.  And I suppose that there would never be a perfect
defense against people who want to use the newsgroup to advance partisan
agendas, and that the concept of "colonization" might not offer any help,
except in venues where international diplomats carry on their discussions.

I would, however, like it if the format of the charter could be "prettied
up" a bit, but I'm sure Jan Isley can take care of that matter.

In <idoy.728003036@crux1.cit.cornell.edu> idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu
	(Mike Wilson) writes:

> ...I suppose
> that even in a charter I would not like to see a total acceptance
> of the idea of oppression, because if you look out in the world
> and see only oppression, then in my view you are truly oppressed.

Well, I never really saw that matter as the real issue anyway.  One's
people may be under foreign domination without producing a feeling of
being oppressed - but you just never know when and where and how you
might be affected by the state of affairs.  I hope we could all agree
that people would prefer being in a situation where their own
traditions and cultures and customs and languages can be used freely,
which is certainly not the case in most of the U.S. and Canada, when
it comes to the lives of the First Peoples - at least not relative
to what one would have found a few hundred years ago.  By these
fairly objective standards, I think it *is* fair to say that coloni-
zation is a reality.  Whether one wants to talk about that reality
in the charter of a new newsgroup is a very different matter.

> At any rate, here is the lastest edition of the charter.  I have
> talked with Jan Isley and he would like to start the vote on a nice
> round date, March the 1st.  Look for the CFV then, with whatever
> changes we decide to make along the way.

March??  Methinks perhaps you mean February.  I'm as anxious as anyone
for winter to get over with <Brrr!>, but it's another reality I think
we have to live with for a while longer.  ;->

Nice work, folks!

Gary
--
    Gary S. Trujillo                            gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us
Somerville, Massachusetts              {wjh12,bu.edu,spdcc,ima,cdp}!gnosys!gst
From: speights@iear.arts.rpi.edu (Arlen Speights)
Subject: Re: Comments on the 2nd RFD: soc.culture.native
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 21:08:29 GMT

idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Mike Wilson) writes:

>>  "indigenous."  All of these terms designate the existing descendents of the
>>  peoples who inhabited the present territory of a country at the  time  when
>>  persons  of  a different culture or ethnic origin colonized that territory,
>>  and who today  live  more  in  conformity  with  their  particular  social,
>>  economic  and cultural customs and traditions than with the institutions of
>>  the country of which they now form a part, under a  State  structure  which
>>  incorporates  mainly  the  national, social and cultural characteristics of
>>  other segments of the population which are now predominant.

>This addition sounds too exclusive for my tastes.  Not all native
>people have been colonized, and in our honest moments we admit that
>native people have done some colonizing and oppressing ourselves.

>Furthermore, not all native people have been "colonized"; many
>are still living more or less apart and in peace with those around 
>them.

Points well taken.  I can see how the wording could be limiting.

>What I object to even more in this addition, however, is the 
>statement that Indian Nations form a part or are "under" a 
>State structure.  With that little phrase, you have effectively
>undermined the sovereign status of Indian Nations in America.

I agree.  The last phrase is definitely extreme, paternalistic as
I believe the original article called it.

>Why not leave it sort of vague as it was before?  It seems to
>me that it left open the possibility of discussion among all
>KINDS of native people, urban and reservation, dislocated and
>intact.

The main reason I suggested the changes is because the idea of
"first to inhabit a region" seems to raise questions of when first
was and academic situations like that.  But if the charter is viable
as it was, then I have no problem with it; I certainly don't want
to delay the RFD or CFV processes.  After all, it's just a charter :-)

Arlen
-- 
:-(-:-(-:-(-:-( speights@iear.arts.rpi.edu )-:-)-:-)-:-)-:
"Even now, we scarcely feel our hearts beat before they break in protest"
                                                         -Stanley Diamond
                                                                       --
From: lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino)
Newsgroups: alt.native
Subject: Posting of jobs on alt.native
Date: 27 Jan 1993 19:16 CST
Organization: University of Houston
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: rosie.uh.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <2936745229.1.p00179@psilink.com>, "Paula Reynolds" <psilink.com!p00179> writes...
>Original Sender: "Paula Reynolds" <psilink.com!p00179>
> 
>>Original Sender: selway.umt.edu!demeler (Borries Demeler/Biophysics)
>>Mailing List:    NATCHAT (nn.chat@gnosys.svle.ma.us)
> 


..stuff deleted.....


>This is what I've been trying to do since graduation in May 1992.  I've
>written to all the tribal colleges, applied for several jobs on area
>reservations (Western New York), but to no avail.  I have excellent
>references and pertinent job experience; it seems the jobs I was
>seriously considered for went to individuals with 15+ years experience.
>It's a tough job market out there.
> 
>My question:  how can I continue to track down jobs on reservations?
>Now that I'm no longer affiliated with a university, I've not been able
>to find _Lakota Times_ at area bookstores.  Since I'm unemployed, I
>can't afford a subscription.  Has anyone considered posting jobs
>somewhere on the net?


This, I think, is an excellent idea.  The best way to help native peoples 
of any continent is to go where they are and applied your skills to 
improving their lives.  Here are my suggestions....

1) Post jobs involving native peoples here on alt.native (or any group
   that alt.native becomes)

2) Create a new group .... alt.native.jobs .... for the sole purpose of
   posting any and all job openings involving work with native peoples.

What does everyone else thing?

Tammy

Newsgroups: alt.native
From: nsmca@acad3.alaska.edu
Subject: Re: Polyenesia (was Re: Question of Nativity), Alaska
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 13:29:43 GMT

In article <1jpsihINNrpc@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>, baylor@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Baylor) writes:
>>The theory, as I recall, states that people migrated from Asia to Polenesia
>>and then to the Americas. (Hey, this sort of discussion is  alot more fun
>>than the other one. :)
>> 
> 	I agree.
> 	Mom was an archeologist, but i think i ignored her too long
> to remember much.
> 	I had thought that the polynesians went out and settled 
> everything else. The thai were pushed to thailand from south china,
> and the Thai are polynesian, not asian.
> 	Then again, all the earliest archeological stuff was found
> in northern thailand, earlier than in africa (it was discovered again
> by US bombers who thought they were hidden viet cong bases and blew
> the hell outa half of them).
> 
> 						- baylor
> 

Yep, the Tlingit Indian culture and art bares some resembelence to Hawaian, its
possible that the Polynesians sometime in pre-history..
Tlinghits live in SE Alaska.. Go north from Hawaii and hit the Japanese current
and you hit Alaska real easy..


Michael Adams
Alias: Morgoth/Ghost Wheel 
nsmca@acad2.alaska.edu

Newsgroups: alt.native
From: idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu (Mike Wilson)
Subject: Re: Comments on the 2nd RFD: soc.culture.native
Organization: Cornell Information Technologies
Date: 23 Jan 93 13:58:11 GMT

gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us (Gary S. Trujillo) writes:

>I've made a few amendments to the charter, based on previous discussions,
>and added another paragraph expressing what I feel is the sense of our
>recent discussion on the issue of cross posting:


>CHARTER: soc.culture.native is for the discussion of issues relating to
>native populations throughout the world.  For the purposes of defining this
>newsgroup, "native" is considered roughly synonymous with "aboriginal" or
>"indigenous" -- all terms which underscore a population's having been the
>first to inhabit a particular region.  This newsgroup is intended to be
>inclusive, not exclusive, offering an important vehicle for exchange among
>native peoples and between native and non-native peoples.  Besides providing
>a forum for the discussion of such issues as sovereignty, religion,
>education and philosophy, this newsgroup will also carry news stories and
>bulletins which alert people to urgent situations which require immediate
>responses, such as human rights cases and imminent encroachment upon native
>populations.

>We recognize that there already exist a number of Usenet newsgroups for the
>purpose of exchanging information and ideas about the peoples and places of
>various parts of the world, and about issues (e.g., environment) which are
>relevant to the concerns of the members of indigenous societies.  Articles
>whose content clearly makes them appropriate for soc.culture.native *because
>of their dealing with an indigenous people* can be cross-posted to the geo-
>graphically-based or topic-based newsgroup as well as to soc.culture.native.
>However, articles pertaining to subjects not relating specifically to the
>indigenous peoples of a region should not be thus cross-posted.


 >Comments?
>--
>    Gary S. Trujillo                            gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us
>Somerville, Massachusetts              {wjh12,bu.edu,spdcc,ima,cdp}!gnosys!gst


Hello Gary,

This looks like a winning charter to me, although I would prefer
omitting the final negative sentence because it is implied in the
previous positive statement.  That is, once you have said that
soc.culture.native includes cross-posts that have to do with  
native people, I don't think you need to say that cross-post not 
having to do with native people should  be excluded.  This
is already implied, and more important, at least to me, leaving
it out emphasizes the positive and gives people a better feeling
about the group.  

In this same vein, I would say in the previous sentence, something
like: "Consequently, soc.culture.native welcomes all posts from
other newsgroups which pertain to issues important to indigenous
peoples."  It sounds a little more cheery, don't you think?

Mike


==========================
Michael Wilson
idoy@crux1.cit.cornell.edu
==========================

Newsgroups: alt.native
From: ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu!V187EF4Y
Subject: Saami material culture
Organization: University at Buffalo
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 16:22:06 GMT

Original Sender: ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu!V187EF4Y

On Lyn's question (and anyone else wanting to find out about some particular
aspect of some culture):

>Now, for totally non-linguistics, and non-genetic reasons, I'm going to toss
>out a selfish request, since I'm more than willing to share anything I know
>in my field with almost anyone as long as it doesn't benefit Feds, the BIA,
>etc.  Do any of you have specific cultural information (including pictures,
>patterns, or whatever) about Saami material culture?  ... I'm especially
>interested in the Clothing (including folklore, taboos, or whatever), but
>not exclusively.  Their baskets are gorgeous; "traditional" moccasins
>looked wonderful (from a distance), as did a cradleboard I have a postcard
>of.  This one, single, large postcard I bought in Oslo is actually the only
>decent picture I have ever been able to find.
>
>Any suggestions, assistance, etc. any of you can give will be much appreciated.
>(but of course, I'm always looking for more/new stuff for the work I'm
>planning to do on my son's Chippewa regalia).

A good place to _start_ is the Human Relations Area Files.  Many universities
have either the full paper set or microfiche.  Find a university near you that
has a copy, and ask to see the material on, in this case, Lapp (yes, the names
do tend to be oldfasioned) clothing.

The HRAF people have gone through many ethnographic sources, id'ing the text
and pictures as to their topic.  Copies of each page are then filed under each
topic discussed.  This saves a lot of time and effort for someone looking for
specific information.  Instead of paging through dozens of books and journals,
one can limit the search to just relevent material.

Hope that helps!

-Pat Crowe

Newsgroups: alt.native
From: "Peter P. d'Errico" <titan.ucs.umass.edu!derrico>
Subject: Re: DISCUSSION OF soc.culture.native CHARTER GOES OFFLINE
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 15:18:43 GMT

Original Sender: "Peter P. d'Errico" <titan.ucs.umass.edu!derrico>

>
> According to the GUIDELINES FOR USENET GROUP CREATION, the
> discussion for the charter soc.culture.native is now to go
> offline to mail, since no clear concensus has been reached
> after 30 days.
>
I wasn't aware of this guideline, but I was aware that the discussion
of names might trigger such verbosity and excess concern that the
whole project would be sandbagged before it started. That's one reason
I kept out of it except for one brief comment. I recall only too well
the difficulties faced on this issue at the start of NativeNet years
ago.

So far as I am concerned, the "revised current charter" accompanying
Mike's notice is a very acceptable and serviceable document. I hope we
get something rolling soon.



--
Peter d'Errico                                              phone: 413-545-2003
Legal Studies Department                                    fax:   413-545-1640
University of Massachusetts/Amherst 01003           dErrico@titan.ucc.umass.edu

Newsgroups: alt.native
From: u108502@beta.lanl.gov (Andrew Poutiatine)
Subject: Chief Seattle's Speech
Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 17:29:39 GMT

I have heard and read that the famous speech that is attributed to Chief Seattle
is not in actuality his, but rather some fabrication written by someone else.
I understand that he did speak about such topics as is attributed to him in 
the speech that I am referring to, but that most poeple are mislead about
the actual origins of this speech.

Does anyone know the truth about this, and have any refences?

Thanks,
-Andrew

Newsgroups: alt.native
From: riilai@sara.cc.utu.fi
Subject: Re: What do the "Lapps" call themselves?
Organization: University of Turku, Finland
Date: 21 Jan 93 16:14:59 EET



>  I don't know about the other countries but in Finland the Lapps call
> themselves samis (in Finnish actually it is saami (the language) and 
> saamelaiset (the people)) and nowadays it is customary for other Finnish people
> to call them Samis too. The name Lapps is used too but not as much it was used
> earlier, and it is definetly not proper to use it in official or public
> matters.
> 
>    Riitta 


I had to go to the library to check the words. Here is what I found.
The Dictionary of Modern Finnish (Origin of words volume) says:
 
  Lapp & Lapps are words that have been used of the Samis by many other
peoples but not by themselves. The name originates from the times of the
vikings (800-1100 A.D) and has originally been used by the Swedish vikings.
When going east, to Russia the vikings met people of Finnish language origin,
who called themselves 'vatja'. The Samis, at that time living near the Vatjas
called themselves 'vuowjos', a word that comes from the word 'vatja'. The
vikings started to call these people lapps (=small patch of cloth), because
they were a small and unimportant people. 
   According to another explanation the word lapp has originally meant
'backwoods' and that the Samis have been called that because of their distant
country. This propably not the case though because even in the 17th century
Lapps were still living much further south than today.
   It is possible that other people than Samis have been called Lapps too. The
word may have been used of anyone with same kind of livelyhood and habits as
the Samis.
   The word Sami (saame in Finnish, not saami as I mentioned before) comes from
an originally Baltic word 's{m{', which is in few other languages (can't really
give you the names of the languages right now because I don't know their
English names and there is no dictionary available) is 'zeme','same' and
'semma'. All of these word mean 'earth'. A province in Finland called 'H{me'
and the people living in it ('h{m{l{iset') have probably gotten their name from
this same word. This means that the Samis and the people of H{me have in
prehistoric times been very close to each other, both in ways of living and
location(which by the way was in southern Finland).

I apologize if the language is not good. I don't know the English terminology
of languages, hope everyone can understand my translation anyhow.

Riitta
Newsgroups: alt.native
From: anchor.esd.sgi.com!lyn (Lyn Dearborn)
Subject: Re:  What White People Can Do (rant)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 23:37:28 GMT

Original Sender: anchor.esd.sgi.com!lyn (Lyn Dearborn)

Great rant/rave Chris... I agree wholeheartedly with parts 2 & 3.


>What White People Can Do

>submitted by lifelong white person Chris Clarke


You're ok chris.... of course, you KNOW, I believe all colors should do this.
Though as a white person, you need to know that asking a native person to
illuminate you isn't going to "net" you the same result and just keeping your
ears open.  Want a speech?  Just ask me for the "native outlook" on x,y,z.
even on something I'm considered "an expert" at, and generalizing is always
a mistake ... and I just did it myself when I said "asking a native person".
No two alike; broken molds; I see nothing in my recent past that I can lay my
hand on a bible or a buffalo robe and say "singularly unites all Native Americans
across our fair land.  Don't you all feel the same thing when you hear a PowWow
drum?  say what?  "Don't all Indians like Acorn meal?"  "Wouldn't any Indian
person just DIE for a basket like this " ... "Well actually, Ms X, no, that
particular one was woven in Africa ... see you can tell by the way it starts
out" I replied.

The secret is definitely patience ....and keeping ears open and mouth shut (my
own personal weakness ... sigh...) BUT NEVER, NEVER, LOSE SIGHT OF THE UNMIS-
TAKEABLE FACT THAT EVERY OPINION YOU GET IS JUST THAT, an opinion.  It may have
been put out in 100%+ sincerity, or because you are thought of as being
insincere and therefore not worthy of the truth.  If you ask someone who is
new to their culture, they are going to have
considerably more slanted views.  If your heart is true
and your eyes honest and sincere, you'll get the information you seek ... just
don't whine if it comes to you "on Indian time".

Keep also in mind, that culture  and heritage are never for retail sale ... it
comes with trust, time, and exchange.

lyn

^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^
"We did not weave the web of life.  We   | Lyn Dearborn
are merely a strand in it.  Whatever     | Naturalist/Person
we do to the web, we do to ourselves"    | dearborn@anchor.esd.sgi.com
		Chief Seattle 1854				 | 415/ 321-1075
^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^




Newsgroups: alt.native,news.groups,soc.culture.misc
From: janeric@control.lth.se (Jan Eric Larsson)
Newsgroups: gen.nativenet,alt.native,soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: What do the "Lapps" call themselves?
Date: 21 Jan 93 10:49:22 GMT
	<1993Jan21.020141.25330@gnosys.svle.ma.us>
Organization: Dept. Automatic Control, Lund Inst. of Technology, Sweden
Originator: janeric@bellman



Gary S. Trujillo said:

>The following is from a friend in the U.S. who has been speaking the
>Norwegian language all her life (both of her parents being from Norway):
>
| Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 19:13:39 EST
|
| On the subject of Sami or Lapps:  When I was a child the term I always
| heard was Lapps.  However, that was when Norwegians were not particularly
| conscious of the wishes or needs of their citizens in the north part of
| the land.  The Samis have sought rights for themselves more recently and
| one of the results has been that others have been told fairly forcefully
| that they should use the name Sami for this people.  (It is spelled "same"
| in Norwegian, but it is a two-syllable word.)   This is now the official
| name.  "Lapp" means a patch of cloth for mending, thus the name suggests
| that these people wore patched clothes, in all, a derogatory term and one
| that needs to be dropped today.

To my mind, this states the general opinion quite fairly. However,
here comes some linguistic facts. Interpret them as you like.

The words same, saami, sabme, etc., are fenno-ugrian in origin and are
used to construct the names of the langauge and of the people. Thus,
the saami people use words based on them about themselves in their own
langauge.

The word lapp is Scandinavian, i.e., north-germanic in origin. It is
an old word, used long before 1000 A.D. and its meaning is unclear.
Thus, the explanation concerning lapp in the meaning of cloth-patch is
in no way lingustically motivated; there are many competing theories.

Neither is it true that lapp was or is clearly derogatory. But of
course the speakers of north-germanic languages have often seen the
saami as more primitive, and anyway it may seem reasonable to name a
people in their own langauge. I think that most people today believe
the word lapp to be derogatory, with no linguistic reason.


Jan Eric Larsson                  JanEric@Control.LTH.Se      +46 46 108795
Department of Automatic Control
Lund Institute of Technology     "We watched the thermocouples dance to the
Box 118, S-221 00 LUND, Sweden    spirited tunes of a high frequency band."
Newsgroups: gen.nativenet,alt.native,soc.culture.nordic