From: groucho!thinh@uu.psi.com (Thinh N. Nguyen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.vietnamese
Subject: [POL] Re: Normalization w/ Vietnam
Date: 23 Nov 92 02:41:52 GMT
Reply-To: groucho!thinh@uu.psi.com
Organization: SCV Relay
Originator: daemon@media-lab.media.mit.edu


I guess it's time now for me to answer Max Becherer's last response:

> Actually, it was Vietnamese who told ME what is worth it and what is
> not.  Most of my closest friends are Vietnamese refugees, and I know many 
> other Vietnamese people as well; very few of them think normalization is
> a good idea.  Furthermore, their reasoning makes sense to my: one does not 
> trade with the enemy.

You friends should take a good look and determined who are his/her enemy the
government or the people of Vietnam and who they are trying to punish. How
about those friends of your that went to Vietnam, did he trade with the enemy?
How many of your friend didn't buy anything from Vietnam, not even a bag of
tea or a painting. What a bunch of hipocretes your friends are. And I assume
that they are also the people who bought million dollars worth of Thai Lan
products while its government allowed the murderers and rapists to roam the sea.

>      Sure, you experienced it, and I don't doubt for a second that you know
> far more about just how oppressive Communism is. Consequently, I am all the 
> more perplexed by your enthusiastic support of normalization. 

For the last time, perflex all you want but try to get the message. I support 
because I think the normalization will help the people of Vietnam both economically 
and as a big sterp toward making Vietnam a free and independent country and not 
because I approve of the communist government. As a Vietnamese, I have to put 
aside my personal hatred for the Communist leaders and focus at the over-suffering, 
innocent Vietnamese behind them.
	    
> In truth, I have nothing against volonteers going to help Vietnamese
> people directly. What I DO object to is trade, and economic aid because these
> will be subverted by the Hanoi regime.  

You were the one that said volunteers in Vietnam would not be able to do
anything because they are not free to go any where.

>    This is irrelevant.  Hanoi is desperate to get the embargo lifted.  More
> than anything, they needed a breakthrough on MIA's to clear the last obstacles
> to normalized relations.  If you think Mr. Schweitzer just stumbled on this
> treasure trove of information, you are kidding yourself.

Once again your intelligent and wisdom never cease to amaze me. If they want 
the American to see it, would it be safer and quicker if they just handed to
them?

>> May I remind you, Mr. Becherer, that around 37 years ago, people like
>> you have told the Cuban the same thing about Fidel Castro's regime. Today,
>> the Cuban still waiting in Miami for a miracle while Cuba is still 
>> suffering under communist. I am sorry Max, I don't have that kind of 
>> patience and even if I do, I wouldn't bet the future of Vietnamese on 
>> a prediction even if it came from some one with infinite wisdom like you.

>     May I remind YOU, Mr. Nguyen,that for most of those 37 years, the Soviet
> Union and the East Bloc poured billions of dollars of economic aid into Cuba.
> Now that aid is gone, and Castro is facing mounting problems at home. 

Here you go again! I brought up the example to prove a specific point that
people like you have been wrong badly before and you response by reciting your
anti-communits propaganda mindlessly. 

The US poured more aids into South Vietnam at the same time and it still failed. 
The US gave the Philipine 10 time more but the people still extremely poor. Is 
there any poor country on this earth that doesn't receive aids to help them recover
from the atrocities that the Western world done to them during the colonization period? 
Aids, no matter they came from the US or the Soviet, got nothing to do with your 
stupid prediction at all. Compare to neighboring caribean countries, Cuba still fare 
much better than Haiti who has received more aids from the US and they didn't 
sell out to the US like Puerto Rico.

If the US refuses to help these small countries, someone will take the place of 
the Soviet Union. As history has shown many times before. 

>> Oppressive regimes don't just die by natural causes but there are peaceful
>> way to change them. Didn't you see what happen to the Soviet Union? 

>     Yes, I did.  It died of natural causes.  Look at the other East European
> countries; the people finally had had enough of it, and the governments fell.

You saw but you didn't understand Max, Soviet Union felt because of young,
well educated communist leaders like Gobachev who found people in the free
world can be trusted and decided to change the system. It felt because the young
Russian who had watched how people all over the world stand up for they freedom
and stood up themself. The wave of American influence from McDonald to underground
passing of outside information must be credited for this and it was peaceful because 
there were no foreign intervention. There are no armchair revolutionaries to tell them
that they must kill their own countrymen to get freedom.

>                                  Recently, by best friend went back home to 
> visit his mother for the first time in 10 years. He was appalled by the state
> of the country; he places 100% of the blame for it's condition on the Hanoi
> regime.  He hates them just as much, if not more, than he did before he went
> home, and he is just as opposed to normalized relations with the Hanoi regime.

Of course the condition is bad. You best friend should blame on people like you who 
prevent the world from helping Vietnam to get back on her feet just to prove 
your point and to sastisfy your own vengeance. How do you expect the country to 
recover all the damages that were done by the war and the lost of resources and 
capitals and still improve the living condition without any aids at all. How do 
you expect the country to advance without any aid after the US had dumped more than 
7 million tons of bombs on her (that was more than all the bombs used in WW II). 

If your friend is really care about his mother and his fellow countrymen then 
he should said: "I must put all my personal hatred aside and help my people as 
soon as I can. How can I keep punishing my own people like this while nobody is 
helping them. I should be the one to do it instead of blaming and fighting." Sure
his mother doesn't have it too bad because she still has a son in the US who can
support her. Think of all the mothers who children was killed by the US bombs
or Soviet's guns. How do you think they are living now?

Let me put it in an example so you can understand and won't bother me again.
Imagine your father... No, let's make it more realistic. Let's say you have an
elderly mother who live in a nursing home which you tirelessly telling people 
not to give money to. One day you decide to visit your poor mother and blame
the terible condition of the place on the people who keep your mother alive all
these years. Think about this for a second Max.

> We need only look at the Phillipines as an example.  For decades, Filipinos
> lived under the an oppressive and corrupt regime which really didn't care 
> that much about them.  There was ample foreign investment and aid, but the 
> nation never really developed.  Nothing was done about education and social
> services, and much of the funds the Government took in were abused.  No one
> should want Vietnam to become another Phillipines: a source of cheap labor 
> and cheap whores for the more advanced nations.

I am glad you brought up the Phillipinos. The condition in the Philipine today
are the direct result of some American with the policy: "Just kill the communists
and you can do whatever you want with our moneys". This policy is the creator
of monters like Ferdinand Marcos, Manuel Noriega, Thieu van Nguyen and many
more all over the world. Go find a mirror Max, you will see one of these American.

I also found something you wrote that would help my point. Thanks Max.

>      The Phillipines benefitted for years from massive foreign investment; 
> what did the Filipinos get out of it under Marcos ?  How many young Filipino
> women and men still sell their bodies just to feed themselves and their 
> families ?  How much could the Phillipines have benefitted had they had a
> decent government insted of the rotton, corrupt Marcos regime ?  It will take
> them years to pick up the pieces.  

>                                                    What you don't
> understand is that human rights in Vietnam are of little importance to
> Washington.  It is you, not I who is misguided with your unrealistic
> impressions of Washington's intentions and priorities.  Perhaps I'm
> just cynical; I hope I am.

Washington's intention at this point doesn't mean much to me. I know that
normalization would help improve both economic and human rights issues in 
Vietnam thus to me normalization would be the right thing for US to do. You 
are not just being cynical but you also cannot read.

>>                                                     The reason 
>> I wrote this article and hoping for a rapid removal of the
>> trade embargo are because as a younger Vietnamese I need the blessing 
>> from the Vietnamese communities, and as an American I need approval 
>> from the US government before I go back to Vietnam.
>
>        That's strange, my friend didn't have much trouble with American
> autoruties when he wanted to go to Vietnam.

Try to read about the Trading with the Enemy act.

>        As far as the blessings of the Vietnamese community are concerned,
> postings on this medium by Vietnamese supporting your views have been 
> conspicuously scarce.  

The reasons why you don't see more of Vietnamese with my view are:

1- Most Vietnamese know that normalization is inevitable so why waste
time talking about it as many of them wisely advised me so.

2- Many of them are afraid of being called VC, harass, and attack by the
extremists. Ask around and you will hear stories like Vietnamese travel agencies
were vandalized and burned for selling ticket to VN. These so called
freedom lovers are not afraid to used any tactics to violate other Vietnamese's
freedom of speech.

>> If I have a chance to help Vietnam today, then at least, when I lie 
>> down with my ancestors, I can look them in the eyes and tell them: 
>> "I had tried my best." If someday, Vietnamese history will judge me 
>> as someone who did the wrong thing for the right reason then SO BE IT!
>
>     The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

In our culture, Max, the Vietnamese don't purnish people with good intention.
Especially intention to help his/her own people and stop the killing that
usually started by foreigners and their goonies.
		       
What bother me the most about Max is not his oposition to the normalization but
his intention. He claimed that he only concern about the well being of the Vietnamese
but when it comes to helping the Vietnamse, Max became the ultimate procratinator.
He always find an excuse not help them. Let's look at his excuses on various hmanities
related subjects:

>                                   A point concerning those hospitals,
> though: how sure are we that ordinary Vietnamese will have access to them
> after the GIs leave ?  What if they are wasted on soldiers or Party members ?

Is this an excuse not to build hospital in Vietnam?

>>                         An US embassy in Saigon (HCMCT) would serve as an 
>> excelent place for political disidents to seek refuge. 

>    But won't the French or Australian embassies suit this purpose just fine ?

Is this the word of someone who claims to care about human right?

>                                                        If you doubt this  
> will happen, you need only look at the previous small aid consignments sent 
> to Vietnam: all of it went through the Hanoi regime.  A good example is a 
> shipment of artificial limbs the United States sent several years ago.  The
> limbs were intended for Vietnamese civilians injured by American bombs and 
> artilery shells.  Instead, they went to Communist soldiers wounded in 
> Cambodia.  Both the spirit and the letter of the aid had been corrupted.
      
This paragraph shows that he does not fit the profile of a caring and giving
person. Unless you can actually went out on the street and gave the limbs to 
each individual that you saw fit this kind of favorism will happen. A real 
caring person would said: "Give them more limbs" I think anybody who lost a 
limb should have an artificial limb. Unless the government sold the limbs to 
the Soviet soldiers who wounded in the Afganistan war and used the money 
for trips to Monte Carlo (the Marcos would), then I said its not a bad deal. 
The US just didn't give enough limbs. If the Japanese decides to give the US 
some aids. Wouldn't every senators will try everything to get his/her state 
the biggest share. If you didn't expect the government to give to their 
soldiers first you are being extremely naive.

>       If I had a million dollars, I would use it to help Vietnamese refugees,
> at least there, I have a better chance of monitoring how it will be spent.  

I would bet that when he really has the money he would retract this statement
and afraid that his money would go into the gang members who are running these
camps within the fences.

>                                                                         I
> could also give it to Vietnamese resistance movements working to overthrow  
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^                   
> the Hanoi regime.

This is the real motive of Max Becherer involment in Vietnam politics. Sure,
in this case his money will go where he wanted it to go, to buy guns, mines, grenades
and other destructive hardwares for Vietnamese to kill each others. When Max
decided that revolution in third world countries will be his favorite spectator
sport, he failed to realize the killings and chaos following the overthowing of 
government. This type of armchair war promoters would lead Vietnamese into the 
killing circle once again.

If this guy win the lottery tomorow, hundreds thousands of Vietnamese will die
fighting Max's war. If he has the money of Ross Perot or the power of Oliver North,
Vietnamese will suffer for a long time to come. Let's imagine, God forbid, for
a second that Max has his way and his friends succeed in overthrowing the Communist
regime. Already many Vietnamese must have died for this to happen. Then comes the 
settling of old score. Based on the mood of the anti-commie I would say that there 
will be many serious killing. The re-education camps will be opened again but probably
be called jails. Bo^. ddo^.i will be replaced by Co^ng An. The communist leaders, of 
course, will not be harmed but would probably run to France to plot a come back ...

There must be a peacefull way to improve the human right situation in Vietnam. Are 
we stupid enough to fall into this trap over and over again.

Of course, he doesn't want Vietnamese from both side to have a chance to talk to 
each others just like the US didn't want south Vietnam to sit down with north 
Vietnam in the early 1960s. Why call off a good war, right? 

What the world have learn about war in the last four decades can be sumed up in 
one sentence: "Beware of the American who says he loves your people, your country 
then asks you to overthrow the government."

What hurts me more is that there are Vietnamese who stand behind guy like this
and tell him that he has the right to do this to Vietnamese. To some American, a VC
is just a skinny shadowy figure in black pajama running across the rice paddies to make
easy targets for Rambo and Chuck Norris's characters. To Vietnamese, we have
to see the Vie^.t before the Co^.ng and realize that when you kill a VC, there is a 
Vietnamese mother somewhere in our tattered homeland who is waiting for him/her
to come home. Just like she had waited for her husband and her father before that.

sincerely,      
Thi.nh n. Nguye^~n