From: chuq@Apple.COM (Eeyore's Evil Twin)
Newsgroups: misc.fitness
Subject: Re: SUPPLEMENTS! (was Re: Really Strong Stuff)
Date: 14 Dec 92 20:14:43 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Pooh Corner Country Club -- A Planned Community

silver@macbeth.umd.edu (Adam Silver) writes:

>DON'T PISS ME OFF!  Whew!  I hate when people get into this bullshit with me.
>WAKE UP!  I know what I am talking about if you listen to what I'm saying.
>Read between the lines.

How do we know you know what you're talking about? there are half a dozen
other people who post the same kind of article and clearly have no clue.
That's why references and data backing up statements are necessary.

If you have an informed opinion, Adam, adn I'm not claiming you don't, then
give us the data we need to evaluate whether or not to believe you. Bullshit
is a really powerful word, but doesn't tell us much about the discussion
other than what you think. Give us the data we need to decide to agree with
you.

>Why did I say, "BULLSHIT!"?  Because the supplement manufacturers will use
>that tiny piece of information to con everyone into believeing that boron
>is the most worderful supplement in the world.  It's bullshit!  Period.

True. But BULLSHIT is just as content free as GREATEST SUPPLEMENT EVER
INVENTED. From the data given, either could be true.

>Reasearch or not, I wouldn't trust any company that copies off of another
>company as quickly as they find out that another company (makers of Hot Stuff)
>have come up with a product that really sells.  That's what the makers of
>Really Strong Stuff did.

True. In fact, I looked at the labels over the weekend. I'm not impressed. I
didn't bring it home to do a detailed study based on the literature because
I didn't want to waste the money (and they didn't have a tiny jar) on
something that I knew I wouldn't want to eat.

This is why it's key to start dispelling some of the old wive's tale stuff
that goes on in the fitness world, and encourage people to start educating
themselves. You need to be able to read labels (and, assuming the labels are
accurate) and figure out whether you want to suck down what the hype is
pushing on you.  You might also find that you can save a chunk of money by
figuring out what compounds in a given mix are actually doing the real work
and which are questionable and rolling your own. 

Or simply decide you don't need it at all. But you educate folks with facts,
not with screams of BULLSHIT. You don't beat the hype artists by out
screaming them. That's my point.


>BULLSHIT!!!!  Did you hear that?  Why did I say this?  The guy (I forget his
>name) never screened even one of the football players for steroids.  Duh.
>Great research.  It was because of this research that many supplement
>companies decided to sell chromium picolinate as a supplement.

On the other hand, the pigs at Tulane weren't on steroids, and that seems to
be a well-controlled study. 

>What does your research say?

I've covered a lot of this before, but to summarize: Chromium seems to be a
key element in blood sugar control and deficiencies can make diabetics much
worse (and supplementing diabetics can improve control and reduce the need
for injected insulin). It seems to help catabolize fats -- there have been a
couple of studies on that recently, one with pigs at Tulane where
chromium-supplemented pigs were something like 12% leaner than control pigs,
and another in humans where two groups were put on reduced calorie diets and
one supplemented with Chromium Picolinate and L-Carnatine. The control group
lost zero pounds and gained body fat (ate muscle tissue), while the CP/Car
group lost weight and reduced % body fat.

dietary studies (USDA) show that the average intake is 35-50 micrograms a
day, and even in dietician-created 'balanced' diets intake was only on the
order of 80-90mcg, yet another study (I don't remember where, but I can look
it up) showed that bodyweights of up to about 165 need about 200mcg a day,
and above that 400mcg looks to be useful.

So it's pretty clear that there's some there there, and it's a mineral that
you effectively cannot cover the body needs with a modern diet without
supplementation. Supplementation can be very useful for diabetics and seems
to be helpful for hypoglycemics as well or anyone with unstable blood
sugars. It also seems to be very helpful in fat burning, even without an
exercise regimen, so it can help someone who's trying to lose weight.
Whether it really needs to be taken with L-Carnatine or not is unclear to
me, although Carnatine might have some fat catabolism aspects of its own.
(Carnatine has some interesting properties of its own and has some useful
advantages to heart patients, where it's been shown to reduce symptoms of
angina using oral L-Carnatine; also, the Japanese have reported that 900mg
of oral Carnatine markedly reduces blood triglycerides and raises the good
HDL cholesterols; it's thought that it helps improve fatty-acid oxidation
[burning fat], which is why it'sused as a diet aid. As of the printing of
the Hendler book, they're hopeful but it's unproved. The L-Carnatine looks
non-toxic for long durations up to at least 1.6 grams, but the DL form
isn't. So the L- form is preferred).

If I were interested in the blood sugar/insulin aspects of Chromium, I'd
take 200-400mcg of Chromium Picolinate a day (If I were under doctor's
control for it, I wouldn't take a THING until I discussed it with my doctor
however. You do NOT go meddling with your blood chemistry without telling
your doctor what you're doing first. Let them do a lit search and help you
work it into your regimen). If I were interested in encouraging weight
reduction, I'd (a) cut a chunk of fat out of my diet, take 200-400mcg of CP,
and probably add supplements of LCarnatine, L-Lysine and L-Arginine (I
haven't talked about the latter two, but they're in the Hendler book. Look
them up). I haven't seen much else that I consider worth using, considering
the research. hendler, by the way, feels the keys to weight loss are (a)
reduced calorie consumption, (b) fats to 20% of the diet, (c) exercise. 

Funny, I've heard that before. CP might help the weight loss, but there are
no magic cookies. Honest.

-- 
            Chuq "IMHO" Von Rospach, ESD Support & Training (DAL/AUX)
                      Member, SFWA =+= Editor, OtherRealms
                chuq@apple.com | GEnie: MAC.BIGOT | ALink:CHUQ 

                       Sterling Holloway: We'll miss you.
From: linda@hpfcmdd.fc.hp.com (Linda Jackson)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 23:11:47 GMT
Subject: Re: Why?
Organization: HP Mechanical Design Division