HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: trev@hubcap.clemson.edu (Trevor Bauknight)
Subject: Re: 1st Shot (was Re: Followup to discussion of flags, and...)
Organization: Jes Grew Carriers -- Metaphysical Bunko Squad 
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 07:34:22 GMT

cowan@ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu (P. L. Cowan) writes:

>bias. I am not sure whether this is the same as the book to which you
>refer, but Hendrickson's story of the firing on the _General Clinch_

I think I read bits of this book in the Clemson library, but I don't
think it's the same one.  Am I correct in thinking the _General Clinch_
and the _Star of the North_ were attempting to re-supply the troops 
at Fort Sumter, at the order of Lincoln?  Since this was not accomp-
lished, how did Anderson and his men survive the winter at Fort
Sumter between Dec. 20, 1860 and the shelling on April 12, 1861?
Were they resupplied?  I have read that this period was a time of
considerable excitement and anxiety in Charleston, and that Anderson
and his men were actually taken care of by Charlestonians.  The
logistics of this are questionable, however, given the geography
in the area.

>As far as I know the controversy surrounding the "First Shot"
>generally centers around the first shot of the bombardment of Fort
>Sumter itself, rather than the activity on Jan. 9. Hendrickson runs

Oh yeah.  I remember reading about the ships now.  The activity
on Jan. 9 was the first firing on the U.S. by South Carolina.  Did
either of the vessels attempt to sail in under the U.S. flag?

>bombardment. Capt. James offered the "honor" to Congressman Roger
>Pryor, the fire eater from Virginia, who declined saying, "I could
>not fire the first gun of the war," after which (most likely) Capt.

Pryor was the primary instigator in the restless nights in 
Charleston leading up to the shelling, orating hell-fire from balconies,
etc.  He was probably one of the main reasons that by the time of
the shelling, things had gone to far to change.  And then he couldn't
fire the gun.

>Independence", when the Union Army was routed, Edmund Ruffin was
>given the honor of also firing the "Last Shot of the War". 

Oh well.
 
Trevor Bauknight         trev@hubcap.clemson.edu    ...gatech!hubcap!trev
 
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Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
From: cjt1@ellis.uchicago.edu (Charles Ten Brink)
Subject: Re: Know any good books?
Reply-To: cjt1@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 13:33:52 GMT

>In article <1992Sep9.193628.1@ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu> cowan@ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu (P. L. Cowan) writes:
>
>>_The_Killer_Angels_ was okay, I guess, but I had a hard time imagining that
>>"Old Pete" Longstreet was so filled with angst and introspection during the
>>battle. I enjoyed the parts about the 20th Maine better. Just one man's 
>>opinion.

And remember that Longstreet was still recovering, psychologically, from
the death of all three of his children the prior year.  I can't remember
whether this detail makes it into the *Killer Angels*, but his friends in
the army certainly noticed a marked change in his character after that.
--Chuck



-- 
D'Angelo Law Library         "The dogmas of the quiet past are
cjt1@midway.uchicago.edu      inadequate to the stormy present. . .
uclcjt1@uchimvs1              We must disenthrall ourselves. . ."
From: p00098@mail.psi.net (Jones M Murphy Jr)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: Re: Reenactment
Date: 13 Sep 92 13:41:38 GMT
Organization: NatWest Investment Bancorp,National Westminster Bank PLC
X-Mailer: PSILink (3.11)

>For those of you in North/Central California:
>There will be a Reenactment event on Saturday, Sept. 12 and Sunday 
>Sept. 13, in Nevada City, California. The event will be held in 
>Pioneer Park. Living history demonstration will occur thruout both 
>days and 'battles' will be fought at 12:30 & 3:30 on Saturday and 
>10am on Sunday. A parade through Nevada City will follow on Sunday. 
>This event is sponsored by the National Civil War Association; for 
>more information please contact them at (408)927-7651.

Perhaps some Africans will be whipped and lynched, to add realism? A mock
slave auction, perhaps, where young children will be ripped from their 
mother's breasts to be sold to the highest bidder? This kind of "living 
history" sickens me, with it's lopsided focus on one set of battles and 
one tiny facet of the Great American Race War.
Jones
Newsgroups: alt.war
From: jac54@cas.org ()
Subject: Re: The most decisive battle in history ?
Organization: Chemical Abstracts Service, Columbus, Ohio
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 12:50:58 GMT

In article <BuFzFC.CAo@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Larry Jewell) writes:
>In article <1992Sep10.173223.1@acad3.alaska.edu> fsjfz@acad3.alaska.edu writes:
>[section delted]
>> As a side, you should take a look at the occupied India stamps if you get the
>>chance.  I have several in my collection, and my favorite shows the loyal
>>Indian volounteer (complete with turban) manning an MG-34 against those
>>frightful Brits.  They're really cute.
>
>  Are there any references that Chandra Bose had any conferences with the
>Germans?  Were they expecting an uprising against the British through
>pure propaganda or did they have a "fifth column" (mostly like rather small?)
>working in the subcontinent?
>

	A LOOOOOOONG time ago, I saw some propaganda film from Germany
	showing Indian troops from a unit called "Freies Indiens (?)"
	going through training with the commentator telling the
	audience how willing they were to free India from British Rule.

	I e-mailed the original poster about this but he didn't have
	any further information.  Anybody else know anything about them?

	Alec Chambers.
Newsgroups: alt.war
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Re: The most decisive battle in history ?
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 92 21:49:18 GMT

Most?
Well it was back in the 70s and 80s.
It was Unix versus MVS and other OSes like EXEC*8 and VMS is going to die out.
I mean how many of you ever heard of OS/32 or MPX or MPE (very few).
Then after that was Unix versus MS/DOS, but the enemy mutated (yeah no one
remembers what MS/DOS USED to look like).  On my front it was Unix versus
the Cray Operating System, the Cray Time Sharing System, and other OSes,
but we roundly defeated them.  Well scattered elements of the enemy remain.

Oh, you wanted THOSE kinds other kinds of battles. ;^)
The most decisive battle in history has yet to be fought.

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Acting Associate Editor, Software and Publication Reviews
  Scientific Programming
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Ref: Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning, vol. 1, G. Polya
Newsgroups: alt.war
From: HADCRJAM@admin.uh.edu (MILLER, JIMMY A.)
Subject: Re: The most decisive battle in history ?
Organization: University of Houston Administrative Computing
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 12:50:23 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.20

  How about the Battle of San Jacinto?  Sam Houston's outnumbered Texas army
surprises the Mexican Army under Santa Anna and routs it in about twenty 
minutes, capturing the Mexican leader.

  1.  Tactically decisive:  It was a complete victory, the Mexicans had to
    withdraw.

  2.  Strategically decisive:  Ended the campaign, and gained Texas' indepen-
    dence from Mexico.

  3.  Repurcussions?  All but guaranteed Texas would join the United States.
    Later border troubles brought on the Mexican War, which led to a US victory
    and large territorial gains.  Internal tensions created by the war helped
    bring about the American Civil War in 1861.

  Worth a footnote at least.



semper fi,

Jammer Jim Miller 
Texas A&M University '89 and '91
********************************************************************************
* Speak for my employers?  They don't even know I exist!		       *
*"Become one with the Student Billing System. *BE* the Student Billing System."*
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********************************************************************************
From: youngs@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Scott D. Young)
Newsgroups: alt.war
Subject: Re: Chinese buy Russian Carrier & Arms sale to Iran
Date: 9 Sep 92 18:17:09 GMT
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada


   Anyone know how close to operational the new PRC Carrier is?  I imagine that
   it won't be useful for *quite* a while, especially considering all the talk
   about the complications of learning carrier ops.  I will be interested to 
   see how many missle subs North Korea buys to counter it.

   Scott
Newsgroups: alt.war
From: manuelp@ecf.toronto.edu (MANUELPILLAI Gerald Nishanthan)
Subject: Re: The most decisive battle in history ?
Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 00:52:00 GMT

In article <BuA4yu.BKG@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Larry Jewell) writes:
>
...

>As a bit of speculation, how far back could the Russian have fallen if they
>had lost Stalingrad?  And how much further could the Heer have advanced?
>
>Was there a position/line east of the Volga where the Stavka was planning
>their next defense?
>

I believe that the original plan was for the Wehrmacht to stop at the Urals.
This would have separated the "European" from the "Asian" Soviet Union, and
that was what Hitler wanted.   I guess Stalingrad was the eastern-most city
that was in the battle plan.  Whether this could have been pulled off, is 
another question altogether.  

Gerald M

Newsgroups: alt.war
From: akula@ecst.csuchico.edu (Guo Han-Zhang)
Subject: Re: The most decisive battles in history?
Organization: California State University, Chico
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1992 08:20:16 GMT


I would like to add the Battle of Chang-Ping, at about B.C. 260 to the list.
This was the bloodiest single battle in Chinese history. Chin, the strongest
feudal state in ancient China met its stongest rival Chao on the way to unify
China. After a 46-day campaign, Chao army suffered 50,000 KIA and about 
400,000 soldiers were taken prisoners. Later the Chin army bury all the POWs
alive. After this battle, no other state could have an army large enough to
resist Chin's military power. In 221 B.C., China was united under Chin rule.
This is the first time in history that China became a coherent country, not
a combination of warring states.
Newsgroups: alt.war
From: fsjfz@acad3.alaska.edu
Subject: Re: The most decisive battle in history ?
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 23:30:30 GMT

In article <1992Sep13.144126.1@acad3.alaska.edu>, fsjfz@acad3.alaska.edu writes:
> publicly to any major Indian leaders.  There was probably an Indian SS
> ``Regiment'' somewhere that was used for propaganda purposes, with the ranking
> officer claimed by the Germans to represent a sizeable proportion of the
> population of Germany.
OOPS!           ^^^^^^^ should read ``India'' -and i should proof read a
little...
>  
> James Zuelow
> FSJFZ@acad3.alaska.edu

James Zuelow
FSJFZ@acad3.alaska.edu
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell)
Newsgroups: alt.war
Subject: Re: The most decisive battle in history ?
Date: 11 Sep 92 13:58:40 GMT
Organization: Chalmers University of Technology

In article <1992Sep10.173223.1@acad3.alaska.edu> fsjfz@acad3.alaska.edu writes:
>However, they had the stamps
>for occupied India all ready printed.

> As a side, you should take a look at the occupied India stamps if you get the
>chance.  I have several in my collection, and my favorite shows the loyal
>Indian volounteer (complete with turban) manning an MG-34 against those
>frightful Brits.  They're really cute.

  Despite the propagandistic stapns, did they really plan to take India the
hard way, or did they expect to get it as a part of a Brittish surrender?

>James Zuelow

-bertil-
--
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."
"This is the famous Hasan B Mutlu-trigger, insert it in your .sig file today!"
From: clf@ecl.psu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.war
Subject: Re: The most decisive battle in history ?
Date: 14 Sep 92 18:23:17 GMT
Organization: Engineering Computer Lab, Pennsylvania State University

In article <1992Sep10.173223.1@acad3.alaska.edu>, fsjfz@acad3.alaska.edu writes:
> In article <BuE2Ep.GHs@ecf.toronto.edu>, manuelp@ecf.toronto.edu (MANUELPILLAI Gerald Nishanthan) writes:
>> In article <BuA4yu.BKG@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Larry Jewell) writes:
>>>As a bit of speculation, how far back could the Russian have fallen if they
>>>had lost Stalingrad?  And how much further could the Heer have advanced?
>>>Was there a position/line east of the Volga where the Stavka was planning
>>>their next defense?
>>>
>> I believe that the original plan was for the Wehrmacht to stop at the Urals.
>> This would have separated the "European" from the "Asian" Soviet Union, and
>> that was what Hitler wanted.   I guess Stalingrad was the eastern-most city
>> that was in the battle plan.  Whether this could have been pulled off, is 
>> another question altogether.  
>> 
>> Gerald M
>> 
>  From the STAVKA side, the Urals was the last line also.  They were pretty
> confident of being able to hold ``The Urals Line'' (written about by both sides
> in contingency planning) no matter what the Germans did.  That's why they
> relocated what industry they could behind the range.
>  And i believe Gerald is correct- The Germans never really wanted to occupy
> anything *IN THE SOVIET UNION* past the Urals.  However, they had the stamps
> for occupied India all ready printed.  An Indian campaign would have required
> occupying the Cuacasus, both Stalingrad and Astrakhan on the Caspian Sea.  So i
> don't think that Stalingrad was an end point for the Caucasus campaign.  Not to
> mention the oil fields, which would have required clearing the coast of the
> Caspian Sea of Soviets anyway.
> 
> 
> James Zuelow

	When I proposed the battle of Stalingrad as most decisive battle in
recent history I did so with the assumption that the Wehrmacht followed up the
conquest of the city with the conquest of the oil rich regions to the south.
This is indeed the Caucasus region.  Keep in mind that the campaign in southern
USSR did involve an attempt to sieze the oil field and resulted in the
Wehrmacht rolling into a burning oil installation at Maikop.  Also, if the
battle for the city was won, more units could have been detached for operations
in the south.

	Also, this operation could have been followed up with an invasion of
Persia (Iran) and had a remote possibility (NOTE I state REMOTE) of linking
up with Rommel's Afrika Korps, assuming they got supplied better.

	Then would come India.  But the Persian gulf is MANY TIMES more
important that India because of the oil. 

	Hitler's war machine ran on oil and the Fuhrer was ALWAYS paranoid
about his oil supply (Romania).  

	So, I still think that had the city of Stalingrad been taken the
opportunity for the Wehrmacht to sieze oil regions to the south would have
had it the most decisive battle in Europe during WWII.

SS
Newsgroups: alt.war
Subject: War smell...
From: jhsegal@wiscon.weizmann.ac.il (Livy)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 13:38:01 GMT
Organization: Weizmann Institute of Science, Computation Center

Hi!

  To all the guys who think that there won't be another war in Iraq:Israel
  was divided again in new regions,like in the last war..War smell??? WAR
  STINCK!!
  Livy
  P.S.:The purpose of the regions is,if you don't know,to make radio anuncements
  easier:when a scud falls,searching teams go out to see if it was chemical,so
  they check a specific region,and if there is nothing there,they announce:
  Region X can unwear(??) the gas masks,and to get out...
^L
  Nice Game,isn't it?
  It's FUN to be here,in Israel :)^L  (U have a lot of action!:)   )
From: umteghts@ccu.umanitoba.ca (david teghtsoonian)
Newsgroups: alt.war
Subject: Re: The most decisive battles in history?
Date: 7 Sep 92 22:28:39 GMT
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada


  As far as WWII battles go, the battle for Moscow in late 1941 was certainly
a crucial one. Had Moscow fallen, the Soviet lines of communication would have
been severely crippled as Moscow was the rail and telephone hub of the USSR.
With this vital manufacturing and communication center gone, the Soviet army
might have been on the verge of collapse. (Note that I don't think the battle
of Stalingrad was as decisive; the German Army and its supply lines were
really overextended at this point and the Soviet Army would probably have
ground them up and forced them back in any case. The loss of the sixth army
was of course disasterous for the Germans but I think the really DECISIVE 
battle was for Moscow, in terms of deciding the eventual outcome of the war.)

-Curt
Newsgroups: alt.war
From: c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen)
Subject: Re: Looking for history of religious wars
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 20:21:01 GMT

In article <lb7a0bINNe28@jethro.Corp.Sun.COM> tmhoff@oogoody.Corp.Sun.COM writes:
>I'm interested in a history of wars fought primarily for religious
>reasons. I realize its hard to separate politics and religion
>but you get the idea. 
>
>What were the worst religious wars in history?

The Crusades, especially the Reconquista: 800 years, 3000 battles



  ++ Tuomas Viljanen                     ++ For a battle like Crecy, you do  ++
  ++ Lahderanta 20 A 19                  ++ not need a military genius like  ++
  ++ SF-02720 Espoo 72 FINLAND           ++ Edward III. All you need is an   ++
  ++ 358-0-592175 or c34657b@saha.hut.fi ++ idiot like the Duke of Alencon.  ++
Newsgroups: alt.war,soc.history
From: tmhoff@oogoody.Corp.Sun.COM (Todd Hoff)
Newsgroups: alt.war
Subject: Why do wars start? (was: Re: Looking for history of religious wars)
Date: 15 Sep 1992 17:04:47 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: tmhoff@oogoody.Corp.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: oogoody.corp.sun.com

In article 92Sep15094838@klaava.Helsinki.FI, vvirrank@cc.Helsinki.FI (Ville V>>The >>Crusades, especially the Reconquista: 800 years, 3000 battles
>
>It was longest and had most battles, but was it worst?
>And how you define religious war?
>

I was thinking about this over the weekend and I think my specification
of religious war was too narrow. What I think I mean is what wars
are started for ideological reasons versus reasons of conquest? Which
is really asking why do wars start.

I'm trying to get at how many people have died, how many lives have been
ruined by people who think they have the right answer to all of lifes questions 
and are willing to kill others to make them think the same. War for conquest 
somehow seems more honest to me. 

Was america's revolution idelogical? I think so. Which means all ideological
wars are not bad  (heavy ethnocentricism here :-)). But how about the russian
and chinese revolutions?
Newsgroups: sanet.talk.politics,alt.war,soc.culture.african
From: g91h7029@alpha.ru.ac.za (Wayne Humphries)
Subject: The tip of the weapons pyramid.
Summary: politics
Keywords: politics
Organization: Rhodes University, Grahamstown, South Africa
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 22:16:49 GMT

Artificial intelligence has two components. 
Vision and Language. A satisfactory integration
of the two must refer to Euclid's elements.
Spengler traces the evolution of number 
from the Classical Form to our Western Function.
AI is LAYERED. Only by examing History through
the archaeological record in the British 
Manuscripts Library can one develop a satisfactory
model of mind that compares Time with Space.

Western technics was always esoteric and inaccessible
to the Barbarian.
Newsgroups: alt.war
Subject: Re: Chinese buy Russian Carrier & Arms sale to Iran
From: galan@netlink.cts.com (Greg Gross)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 22:32:34 PDT
Organization: NetLink Online Communications, San Diego CA

dan@cubmol.bio.columbia.edu (Daniel Zabetakis) writes:

> In article <1992Sep9.181709.16004@ccu.umanitoba.ca> youngs@ccu.umanitoba.ca (
> >
> >   Anyone know how close to operational the new PRC Carrier is?  I imagine t
> >   it won't be useful for *quite* a while, especially considering all the ta
> >   about the complications of learning carrier ops.  I will be interested to
> >   see how many missle subs North Korea buys to counter it.
> >
> 
>     Missle subs? Naaaaaaaa. I think a few diesel-electric subs with torpedoes
> would be better. Without an effective anti-sub screen, the carrier will be
> a sitting duck. I haven't heard anyone suggest that the Chinese have any
> significant ASW forces.
> 
> DanZ
> 
> 
> -- 
> This article is for entertainment purposes only. Any facts, opinions,
> narratives or ideas contained herein are not necessarily true, and do
> not necessarily represent the views of any particular person.  


As I understand it, Chinese ASW ability is far from state of the art.
But as aggressively as they are augmenting the rest of their blue-water
naval force, there's no reason to expect they won't be addressing that
deficiency in the near future.

As for the prospective uses of the carrier, I would think the other
claimants to the Spratly Islands would have more cause to be concerned 
about that than North Korea. 

--
Gregory Alan Gross      Welcome to life, where no good deed goes unpunished.
San Diego Union-Tribune         (619) 293-1270 (voice)
P.O. Box 191                    (619) 293-2333 (fax)
San Diego, CA 92112-4106        galan@netlink.cts.com (Internet)
Xref: sparky alt.war:1941 soc.history:8272
From: jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Larry Jewell)
Subject: Re: The most decisive battle in history ?
Organization: Purdue University
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 01:42:47 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.173223.1@acad3.alaska.edu> fsjfz@acad3.alaska.edu writes:
[section delted]
> As a side, you should take a look at the occupied India stamps if you get the
>chance.  I have several in my collection, and my favorite shows the loyal
>Indian volounteer (complete with turban) manning an MG-34 against those
>frightful Brits.  They're really cute.

  Are there any references that Chandra Bose had any conferences with the 
Germans?  Were they expecting an uprising against the British through
pure propaganda or did they have a "fifth column" (mostly like rather small?)
working in the subcontinent?

>James Zuelow
>FSJFZ@acad3.alaska.edu

Larry J

-- 
#L.W. Jewell Moderator at the Veterans Information Site (veteran@cc.purdue.edu)#
#& WWII-L Listowner: "Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange,#
#sudden and wholly unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all   #
#phases of life." "Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41  #
Newsgroups: alt.aeffle.und.pferdle