HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.seasia-l
Date:         Sun, 11 Oct 1992 17:42:08 EDT
From:         "(Erwin Brisbanuharto)" <ebrisban@CS.MTU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: FAKE MESSAGE
              Oct 11, 92 8:26 am

I agree with you, Mr. Becherer. Fake e-mail is very unacceptable.

> Personally, I think it is someone, probably an
> Indonesian, who is angry at Djoko for his support of the East Timorese in
  ^^^^^^^^^^
> their struggle for independance.

Mr. Becherer, why do you always jump into conclusion???
Is it possible that it may be one of you, just trying, again, to discredit
and create bad image about Indonesian???
Please, don't create another flame. It's hot enough here.

Erwin
From: 3ZLUFUR@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU (Elliott Parker)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.seasia-l
Subject: SG;MY; Dates, Hari Raya and Chinese New Year
Date: 7 Oct 92 12:57:15 GMT
Organization: Central Michigan University
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

=======================  Forwarded  Message  ===========================
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asean
From: mhkho@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg (Ho Hiang Kwee)
Subject: Re: Malaysia: Dates for Hari Raya and Chinese New Year?

These are Singapore dates but should be the same as the M'sian ones
plus/minus 1 day.

Chinese New Year - 23 Jan 1993
Hari Raya Puasa - 25 March 1993

--
Hiang-Kwee Ho                  ||    Internet: mhkho@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg
School of Mech. & Prod. Eng.   ||    Bitnet:   mhkho@ntuvax
Nanyang Technological Univ.,   ||    Phone: +65 799-5499
Nanyang Ave., Singapore 2263.  ||    Fax:   +65 791-1859
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
From: pires@vxcrna.cern.ch (Rui)
Subject: Re:      Timor Questions
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: European Organization for Nuclear Research, CERN
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 00:24:00 GMT

In article <9210080152.AA22315@suna7.cs.uiuc.edu>,         Max Becherer <becherer@SUNA0.CS.UIUC.EDU> writes...
>M. Parikesit writes...
> 
>>    I need to ask two questions concerning these East Timor ordeal, just
>>    to get a clearer picture ;
>>
>> 1. Why does the East Timorese is so persistent (like you say)
>>    to be independent.

Because their culture is completely different from Indonesian culture(s)
  (different languages, different colonizer, different ethnies, different 
  religions, different politics, etc., etc.).
Because they were not asked to be Indonesian, they were invaded.
Because under Indonesian occupation they were brutalized, raped, 
  massacrated, almost dizimated.
Because they feel like foreigners in their own land, only get underpaid 
  jobs, and live under miserable conditions.
Because it is foreigners which benefit from their natural ressources.
Because they want to decide their own future.
Because it is a right they have and they want to use.

>>    What are the benefit for them as an Independent country, and
>>    why being Indonesian is so bad for them ?


The benefit is enourmous, as you can see above.


>>
>> 2. What do they have to live on as an Independent country ?


Maybe you never heard of the huge amounts of oil recently discovered
in the Timor Sea,  which Indonesia is selling to other countries (like 
Australia), and from which the East Timorese will never benefit unless 
they become independent.  And they have many others natural ressources 
and others that they can start exploiting (f.ex. tourism).

>>
>>
>> Waiting for your reply,
>> M. Parikesit,   mparikes@cs.indiana
>>

You got it.  :-)

Rui Pires
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X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.seasia-l
Date:         Tue, 13 Oct 1992 15:16:54 EDT
From:         "(Erwin Brisbanuharto)" <ebrisban@CS.MTU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Response on ET
              Trocki" at Oct 12, 92 8:50 am

Carl,
	I thank you for your response. Certainly, I have learnt so much
from you. First of all, in your very first posting I learn your definition
of "Indonesian patriots" which, according to your definition, are those
who oppose Indonesian government. Second, from your last posting,
I learn your definiton of "Scientific and authorative news." That is
the news which confirms Mr. Trocki's beliefs. If it does not agree
with his belifs, then it is not "scientific and authorative news,"
even if it comes from the authorative source (Indonesian gov't).
Are they right, Carl? A few months ago in this very list, I had brought
this matter up in response to unfair news posted by _you_know_who_.
And you did not seem to learn anything from the discussion.
Oh... yes you are not a student. You don't need to learn anything.
And this brings me to a third definition that I learn from you.
"learning" = only students have to do it.
	Carl, I am not ignoring the facts that you mentioned in
your posting. I have told you this over and over from the first time.
I do not know what language you speak, but I assume you know English.
And I want to make this clear. I've known the problems and I am
not ignoring the problems. READ MY LIPS, I'VE KNOWN THE PROBLEMS
AND I AM NOT IGNORING THE PROBLEMS. I hope you can understand my
sentence. If not, let me know, I'll probably ask someone to translate
to whatever the language you speak. Again as I told you in my very
first posting, we have known the problem and we are solving the problems.
I am not ignoring our own problems. You are just the one who keeps
mentioning the problems. Certainly, those will add some fuel to
the flames we'd already have, but those are not the reason why
the flames came out in this list.
	I don't think I need to be wary of invoking Chomsky's name.
I am his true admirer. I am glad that you mention his name. I know
he pays attention to what is going on in East Timor, but

(The following is a part of e-mail sent to me yesterday,
 by somebody in this list)
> ... My friend told me that Chomsky (spell?) said, "before
> you boom Jakarta or Bagdad, you must send a nuclear to
> Washington." It is not easy, isn't it!  :))..:))

 ...and Washington keep washing their dirty hands.....

	About the native Americans, you are absolutly right.
No one is forbiding native Americans to speak for themselves, ...
but none of you guys are listening to them. No wonder, when I met them,
they don't ask me for a help. Instead, they told me their sad stories and
gave me some good advice. Off course, I will keep talking about the
native Americans, cause I know you will be interested. If you are not
interested, why do you call yourself human right activists??????

Cheers,
Erwin
From: apakabar@IGC.APC.ORG (Indonesia Publications/Task Force)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.seasia-l
Subject: IN: 'Enemy Agent' Exposes Self
Date: 13 Oct 92 21:16:19 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

I received this message from Hasan di Tiro's agitprop men today
at my Indonesian Publications address.  Various 'documentation'
accompanied it.


________________Begin received letter 'as is'________________


Acheh/Sumatra National Liberation Front
P.O. Box 130
S-145 01 Norsborg 1
Sweden

With Compliments

Gentlemen,

We know that you are our enemy's agents
but we appreciate that since you are Ameri-
cans may be you have still some sense of
justice and fair play, although we found
no trace of it thus far.  But remember, there
are US interests in Acheh that are not ne-
cessaryly similar with Java's.

Sincerely,

ASNLF

Sep. 3, 1992.

_______________End received letter 'as is'____________


Well, the Teungku and his men are partly right.  I have
called him publicly an international terrorist and tried --
as yet unsuccessfully -- to arrange for his arrest if
he steps on American soil.

If only the Indonesian government were a bit more bold in
insisting Malaysia round up his agents from their 'safehouses'
in Malaysia.  Sigh.

Just a 'little refreshment for the netters.'  :)

John


P.S.  In case you didn't know, ASNLF assassinates 'enemies.'
So if "you_know_who" suddenly bites the dust, check this group
out for me, will ya, guys?  :(



John A. MacDougall                  Email: apakabar@igc.apc.org (Internet)
Editor, Indonesia Publications       or apakabar@access.digex.com (Internet)
Editor, Southeast Asia Publications Fax: 301-552-4465
Coordinator, Task Force Indonesia   Post: 7538 Newberry Lane
                                     Lanham-Seabrook, MD 20706 USA

Permission to re-post automatically granted unless otherwise specified
in this message.  Private email should not be re-posted without explicit
permission.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
From: R7YR <R7YR@UNB.CA>
Subject: Do not be arrogant : east timor
Organization: The University of New Brunswick
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 16:54:10 GMT

Dear netters,

I am an Indonesian student studying in Canada.
I have been following the talks about ET
with mixed feelings.
To be frank, I feel sorry for those that have been
killed in ET and their relatives.
All of us I think do not want this kind of accident
to happen again.
Everybody makes a mistake. The goverment also.
The main think that we should learn from our mistake
is not to repeat the same mistake in the future.

I think the Indonesian government also in a way
realizes that they make a mistake in The ET incident.
It is a good sign, since the willingness to improve
the situation is there.

Therefore, in my humble understanding
the best way for all of us at this times
in to help the Indonesian goverment
to improve the situations in ET.

I do believe that
ill-hatred accusation, arrogant suggestions,
and other types of civilized-uncivilized solution approaches
will not help too much.
It just enlarge the gap of understanding between us.


Salam =** Hasan

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X-Envelope-to: SEASIA-L@MSU.BITNET
X-VMS-To: IN%"SEASIA-L@MSU.BITNET"
X-VMS-Cc: CTROCKI
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.seasia-l
Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 19:49:00 EDT
From:         "Carl A. Trocki" <CTROCKI@GUVAX.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Woooowww....wooooowww

Djoko,
        Yes, I agree with you Djoko.  At last, you have given us some
intelligent comments.
                        Carl
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.seasia-l
Date:         Wed, 7 Oct 1992 01:30:59 PDT
From:         "(Coban Tun)" <tun@QUARK.SFSU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Buma: getting ready for offensive

 >Newsgroups: bit.listserv.seasia-l
 >Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 16:52:23 -0500
 >Sender:       Southeast Asia Discussion List <SEASIA-L@MSU.BITNET>
 >From:         Max Becherer <becherer@SUNA0.CS.UIUC.EDU>
 >Subject: Re: Burma: getting ready for offensive

 >     What I don't understand is why, if the West is so irritated at the Junta,
 >don't we provide the rebels with weapons ?  If I had my way, we would supply
 >them with between 500 million and 1 billion dollars in armements.

Well - simple. Although US forces can take out SLORC in 72 hours,
Why would U.S or any other country in West would put up the money
if the helping country/countries get nothing in return? Burma isn't
a oil-producer like Kuwait. I don't think US would want to get it's
hand caught in South East Asia again.

So much for the Bush's "New World Order".

Coban
From: arusydi@SUVM.SYR.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.seasia-l
Subject: Re: Response on ET
Date: 15 Oct 92 05:40:57 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

----start of forwarded msg from Benny

Excerpted from:
> Date:         Tue, 13 Oct 1992 15:16:54 EDT
> From: "(Erwin Brisbanuharto)" <ebrisban@CS.MTU.EDU>
> Subject:      Re:  Response on ET
>
>good stuff deleted<
>
>    About the native Americans, you are absolutly right.
>No one is forbiding native Americans to speak for themselves, ...
>but none of you guys are listening to them. No wonder, when I met them,
>they don't ask me for a help. Instead, they told me their sad stories and
>gave me some good advice. Off course, I will keep talking about the
>native Americans, cause I know you will be interested. If you are not
>interested, why do you call yourself human right activists??????
>
>Cheers,
>Erwin

We are aware that this list devoted to SEA regionally, but there is no
such a restriction to contrast and compare with the same issues
happened around the world. The issues of Native-American and Oz-aborigin
for examples are comparable here. I am glad to hear that there is a
young brilliant American who is studying and working at BrownUniv told
a friend of mine in the last couple days that he joined the movement
to PROTEST the Columbus Day celebration and parade in his town!!!
The reason is that Christ Columbus never found the land, but Indian!!!
So, there have been A BIG LYING going on here, right underneath of
Mr. Trocki's sole of foot :-). But I would like to listen how a
'jacobson visiting associate professor of history' teach us how
to give a freedom to Native-American to decide their status and
be independent. Yes, there is another side of coin :-).

This a young brilliant friend from Providence also mentioned that
a social justice movement [as followed by Mr. Carl, Mr. Charles,
Mr. Max and Mr. Avel] tends to watch a small thing happened out there,
but neglects whats happening surrounding them. It is like an Indonesian
proverb: 'Gajah di depan pelupuk mata tak nampak, semut di seberang
lautan nampak.' It is easy to blame another people out there. But
is there any technical proposal to present to improve the system?

I was struck by Mr. Carl's statement in his celebration of something
the other day. He said that there should be a patriot to fight
against IG. Hmmmm, so if someone doesnt wanna fight against IG then
s/he is not a patriot? So arrogant. I have ever joined our social
justice movement in our country, and I never felt as a patriot.
It was simply because the idea that may be I was right to help
the people against IG politically, but may be some day it was
considered as a wrong way. Do you here a story about the heroic
cemetery? Any hero from any regim is burried there in the cemetery :-).

Good luck with your overseas-social justice movement.

wassalam,
-Benny

----end of forwarded msg

wassalam,
ar
From: becherer@SUNA0.CS.UIUC.EDU (Max Becherer)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.seasia-l
Subject: Re: FAKE MESSAGE
Date: 11 Oct 92 13:26:57 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU


    I agree completely.  This kind of behavior is totally unacceptable; it is
one thing to disagree with someone and flame him (her) to a cinder on the Net,
but to smear his reputation with phoney email messages is, in my opinion,
criminal.  It's forgery plain and simple, just like someone who fakes a
signature or an ID, this persone is pretending to be someone he isn'e and
should be punished accordingly.
   You have my complete support (even though there isn't anything I can do to
help!) in finding this jerk.  Personally, I think it is someone, probably an
Indonesian, who is angry at Djoko for his support of the East Timorese in
their struggle for independance.  Djoko and I agree on this issue, but even if
we were on opposite sides, I would want this person caught.  Whoever he is, he
and his kind are a threat to the entire Net community.



Refer comments, suggestions, flames to

                 Max Becherer    becherer@cs.uiuc.edu

       Nothing Evil lasts forever -- the Future belongs to the Free.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.seasia-l
Date:         Wed, 7 Oct 1992 02:33:22 EDT
From:         "'Krakatoa Project'" <arusydi@SUVM.SYR.EDU>
Subject:      comment on pro ET propaganda

Message-Id:   <m0mbumx-00010zC@ts.com>
Date:         Mon, 5 Oct 1992 05:38:53 HST
>From: <humu!ts!@SC.MIL>
TO:   ARUSYDI@SUVMNET(

The posting on SEASIA-L have upset me for a long time.
The problem is that the list is filled with so-called Timor Timur activists.
They post many things concerning Timor Timur and are very negative.  They do
not understand all of the political implications concerning Timor Timur.
I doubt if many of them have ever been to Indonesia or even really understand
the people and the culture.  They would rather work as foreigners imposing
their will on Indonesia by lobbying the U.S. congress.  Several Indonesians
and myself attempted last year to discuss the Timor Timur situation last year
but were instead threatend and insulted by the Timor Timur activists.  It is
impossible to carry on a ligitimate conversation with these hot-headed
activists.  It is sad that when an Indonesian posts his views to this list he
has to be degraded and insulted.  That is my views concerning SEASIA-L.  The
only reason I do not resign my membership is because I do not care to have
ETAN (East Timor Alert Network) activities go unnoticed.

Johny Malinowski
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X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL8]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.seasia-l
Date:         Fri, 9 Oct 1992 20:08:47 CDT
From:         "(joseph stimpfl)" <jstimpfl@UNLINFO.UNL.EDU>
Subject:      Re: East Timor flames
              92 7:46 am

Eliot,
     Whereas I tend to agree with you generally about the improper use
of a network, I would not cut off the legitimate reaction of subscribers
to events in Southeast Asia.  I would suggest that one statement of
opinion is enough and it does become redundant when debate, hyperbole
and personal interaction are showcased on what is basically a newsnet.
However, after saying this I find it very important to hear what
Indonesians think about events in Indonesia.  And the same is true for
Thailand, Malaysia or any other SEA country.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.seasia-l
Date:         Wed, 7 Oct 1992 02:49:39 EDT
From:         "'Krakatoa Project'" <arusydi@SUVM.SYR.EDU>
Subject:      enough rice in East Timor of Indonesia

JAKARTA, 10-1-1992.
IT HAS REPORTED THAT THE LOGISTIC DEPOT OF EAST TIMOR WAS READY
TO SUPPLY 8.300 TONS OF RICE IN STOCK. THE NUMBERS ALMOST REACHED
THE SUPPLY TARGET OF 14.275 TONS OF RICE THAT WILL BE ACHIEVED IN
SEVERAL WEEKS. THE DEPOT ALSO HAS 1.033 TONS OF UNHULLED PADDY IN
STOCK. SO FAR NO REPORT FROM THE 13 'BUPATI' (REGENT) REGARDING
LACK OF RICE. [KOMPAS 10-1-1992]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.seasia-l
X-Envelope-to: SEASIA-L@MSU.BITNET
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MIME-version: 1.0
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.seasia-l
Date:         Mon, 12 Oct 1992 23:34:11 -0600
From:         GOD BLESS INDONESIA!!! <I2MARTOKOESO@CUDNVR.DENVER.COLORADO.EDU>
Subject:      Re: FAKE MESSAGE

Max, you said in your reply about this fake message that probably
that is an Indonesian that angry to Djoko.
Next time Mr Max, could you please not to make (or even posting)
this kind of opinion in this list?
I knew that in this list now there is a flame about East Timor and
looks like you are the one that usually active in East Timor discussion,
but to make such an opinion like this is not appropriate.
One more thing is I am Indonesian but I never gave a comment
about the newest East Timor flame in this list (I don't really
care about this), so I made this reply not because this related
to East Timor but only because I just don't like that because of something
(East Timor) you made a subjective judgement.
Thank you Mr Max.

MARTO
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Organization: Central Michigan University
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.seasia-l
Date:         Fri, 9 Oct 1992 07:46:07 EDT
From:         Elliott Parker <3ZLUFUR@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>
Subject:      East Timor flames

We went through a flame war a few months ago on East Timor.  Nothing
was decided then and probably no opinions were changed.
    Here we go again.  Can we just drop the flames?  There are a
few who manage to discuss the issues.  Most apparently just like
the process of flaming, name calling, and impugning each others
motives.
    It is basically noise with not a lot of useful signal.
    If you enjoy flaming there are places on the net just for that.  If
you have a problem with an individual, email that person; don't
waste everybody elses time by posting to the list.  If you don't
like American domestic policy or culture, there are plenty of
places you will find like-thinking people--this is a list
on Southeast Asia.
    And finally, if you just cannot bear it, the signoff
command is always available.

========================================================================
Elliott Parker                   Bitnet: 3ZLUFUR@CMUVM
List Owner, SEASIA-L             Internet: 3zlufur@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu
Department of Journalism         Less certain possibilities:
Central Michigan University        eparker@igc.apc.org
Mt. Pleasant, MI 48859 USA         CompuServe: 70701,520
Office tele: +1 (517) 774-3196     The WELL: eparker@well.sf.ca.us
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.seasia-l
Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 16:52:22 -0400
From:         Nhan Tran <tran@PEORA.SDC.CCUR.COM>
Subject:      NEWS/VN: Kissinger says he has no evidence on VN POWs

10/06

KISSINGER SAYS HE HAS NO EVIDENCE ON VIETNAM POWS

    By Moses Manoharan
    JAKARTA, Oct 6, Reuter - Former U.S. Secretary of State Henry Kissinger
said on Tuesday he doubted that Hanoi held Americans captive after the 1973
Paris accords ending the Vietnam War.
    "If there were any there...they might have done it, but I have no proof of
it," Kissinger told Reuters in Jakarta where he is attending a three-day
international conference on energy.
    Kissinger said Vietnam should make a full accounting of U.S. servicemen
still missing from the conflict before relations with the United States could
be normalised.
    Washington has refused to establish relations with Hanoi, and has retained
a crippling trade embargo because of the politically sensitive MIA --
Missing-in-Action -- issue.
    "They have to give us an accounting of the prisoners," Kissinger said.
    "If it is an honest and reasonable accounting, everybody will be willing to
cooperate," he said. "After that we should normalise relations."
    Kissinger was chief U.S. negotiator at the Paris peace conference and
shared a Nobel Peace Prize with his Vietnamese counterpart Le Duc Tho for
their efforts in ending the war.
    A former Harvard University professor, Kissinger served as President
Richard Nixon's national security adviser from 1969 to 1975 and secretary of
state from 1973 to 1977.
    Kissinger said he thought Washington's policy on Vietnam would not change
even if Arkansas Governor Bill Clinton, the Democratic candidate in this year's
general election, won the presidency.
    Clinton avoided military service while a university student during the war.
    "On the contrary, he has to be more careful," Kissinger said.
    The former cabinet secretary, now a private consultant, testified last
month before a U.S. Senate committee that no prisoners had been left behind
deliberately or unwittingly by U.S. officials.
    But he admitted Hanoi may have been cynical enough to hold U.S. prisoners
without his knowledge.
    Two of Nixon's defence secretaries, Melvin Laird and James Schlesinger, who
testified before the committee that Nixon chose to complete the U.S. withdrawal
despite strong evidence that some Americans were still being held, at least in
Laos.
    The U.S. Defence Department lists 2,266 Americans as unaccounted for from
the war. Of the total, 135 are considered high priority "discrepancy cases"
involving Americans believed captured but never repatriated nor accounted for
properly.