HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mlloyd@ocf.berkeley.edu (M. Lloyd)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Help! I've been killfiled and I can't get out!
Date: 17 Dec 1992 05:09:24 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility
NNTP-Posting-Host: earthquake.berkeley.edu

muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy) writes:
>
>Roy, you *know* why Dan does not like you. 

Ah, the gulf between knowing and understanding.  How visible that chasm
has been hereabouts in recent days.

I make that comment, not at Roy (or perhaps at Roy over no more than his
response to Dan), but at the walls. To borrow (and rework) a line from
T-Bone Burnett's latest, "There's a thin line between irony and pathos,
that we erased" ...

This stuff used to really grind me up; it seems the effect is less these
days.  I suppose I begin to learn the way of being friends with fighting
people.  Shoulder chips, hot buttons, covered swamps: all that is
standard.  I'm just learning the confusion of the peacable, the
self-appointed mother hens, who watch people they feel they understand
as they misunderstand and hurt each other.

Iseult's recent "this is my last word" struck a pretty deep chord.  What
to do when the truths submerged in Vikki's post seem clear, but they
cannot be heard for all the bulldozing of minefields?  What to do when
Roy and Kerry pretty clearly have a fair relationship, but to applaud
them is to ignore the lead ball of unintended subtext we all have to
carry (white males, or whoever)?  What to do when the heat level spirals
for no good reason save human nature, and at least one ugly blister
bursts publicly?  To throw up one's hands begs the cry of cowardice, but
perhaps there is a role for silence: a backing off, a cooling.  I think
it's safe to assume the kinds of issues fuelling these bonfires will
still be here when we get back.  It's just a bit close to overload when
the heady whisky of Feminism gets thrown on the fire of BDSM.  It needs
looking at, but perhaps not _quite_ like this.

So many 3/4 truths (and I'm sure I do no better myself), all adding up
to less than a flamewar (just), but to enough to leave Iseult and Roy
feeling bothered, a shade hurt, and distrustful of the forum, Roy in
Dan's killfile, and the outside world its usual uninterested self.  At
least Eric is no longer with us.

Hippy dreams die; there's a lesson in there.

hugs to each and every,
Mike, feeling his wist get about 3/4 full
-- 
Mike Lloyd, B0/1 h- f- t w- g+ k+ s m- e? |    "Bloody nose and burning eyes
      Retro-hippy, music nut, bi and      |  Raised in laughter to the skies"
          backrubber of devotion          |                 - Bruce Cockburn
               --The end of confusion is the beginning of death--
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: dbshapco@napier.uwaterloo.ca (Brad Shapcott)
Subject: Selective Memory?
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 00:01:49 GMT



After running through this batch of soc.bi, I feel compelled to comment
about the general tone of the group.  About this insane need to beat up
on each other to the detriment of any useful dialogue on real topics, to
an apparent love of disqualifying the humanity of others on the flimsiest
evidence, and to the flip ego posturing dominating many posts.  Well,
the first thing I would like to know is, am I the only one that feels this?

I'm not saying that we should all love one another and go flakey, but the tone
of the group seems to be more barbed and uninviting than I recall.  Perhaps
it is selective memory.

I just don't remember having to will myself through soc.bi, or bite my hands
to keep from making caustic and inflammatory remarks (and I can't remember
whether I failed at any point).  Anyways, perhaps its just me.  I certainly
left on a sour note, perhaps I'm just returning during a particularly bad
time?  It's an honest question, asked for purely selfish reasons.  It's
because I can't see investing energy into anything that isn't giving me
any pleasure, satisfaction or feeling of self-worth.  Not that it is owed,
it just naturally used to be part of the experience of visiting here.

Anything you say now seems to be an affront to another's sensibilities, or
to invite some very plain cruelty.  I used to feel like one of the more
abrasive people around (not on purpose, and not as a badge of misguided
honour, but because I happened to be a talkative newbie who made plenty
of naive mistakes).  Now I feel like an amateur at graceless acidity.

Weren't we once better than this?  Didn't we once make a lot more effort at
liking each other?  Or is it possible, that being in a different situation,
I'm more sensitive to things I used to filter out?


Brad

Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: safarj@rebecca.its.rpi.edu (Jonah Emanuel Safar)
Subject: Re: Introduction, or De-Muffining
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 08:08:32 GMT

woodhous@latcs2.lat.oz.au (Joe P Woodhouse) writes:

>safarj@jec311.its.rpi.edu (Jonah Emanuel Safar) writes:
>>Okay folks, here's an intersting question,
>>what is the perfect height?

>   5'1", 5'2", 5'5", 5'6", 5'7" & 5'7", I'd say.

Well then... lets just try to do some sample statistics here then...
Mean: 5' 4 2/3" Median: 5' 5 1/2" Mode: 5' 7"
S.D.: 6 2/3" (For small samples, remember, divide by n-1)
Well, I could try to do some curve fitting here... but, I think we
all know I've been studying for finals too long... I'll leave the
rest to the experts... this engineer is going to go back to rewiring
his bed.... (Yes, rewiring my BED).

>   [grin]


>>And take make matters even more strange, can
>>we come up with an equation relating your height to the perfect height of
>>your partner(s)....?

>   I think my equation would have to be non-deterministic, given the range
>of the values above that it generates...

Non-deterministic?  Never!  I'm sure we can come up with something...
Anyone? :)

>   ...and *ages*, well, there I'm in trouble too. 8-P

Why, running out of time?

>Joe.

>  / Joe Woodhouse        / I'm just a sweet bisexual...   / Hello, there.
> / Latrobe University   /    (think - Rocky Horror)      / Threesomes are fun.
>/ Melbourne, Australia / Music. Magic. Mathematics. Me. / I like cats! (miaow!)

-Points
-- 
________________________________________________________________________________
 If the President won't do it to his wife, he'll do it to his Country. -Unknown
________________________________________________________________________________
Jonah E. Safar             R.P.I., Troy, NY              EMail to:safarj@rpi.edu
From: s882916@otto (Vikki POLLARD)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Attack of the Seperatists (was Re: Roy's "consenting" slave)
Date: 14 Dec 92 06:51:52 GMT
Organization: RMIT Computer Centre
NNTP-Posting-Host: otto.bf.rmit.oz.au


I've been called many things in my life elf but never a seperatist. Shit
I don't think a married woman fits the bill of a separtist. And
I wish you and other people would read what I write. I thought I made it clear
that my posting only commented on Roy's situation. I have no opinion of
your life and I DID NOT say that my opinion is a blnaket one that refers to ALL S&M r'ships.
From: chris@unicorn.resun.com (Chris Von Hendy)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Roy's "consenting" slave
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 92 15:06:04 PST(-800)
Organization: The White Bull
Reply-To: chris@unicorn.resun.com
X-Mailer: uAccess - Macintosh Release: 1.5v3


In article <MUFFY.92Dec11182532@remarque.berkeley.edu> (soc.bi), muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy) writes:
> 
> 
> Of course, I've waited way too long to reply to this, but as an
> internationally-known feminist and pervert (they'd heard of me from the
> newspaper in Canada! *bounce*), I can never resist it when feminism
> meets perversion...*smile*.
> 
> In article <s882916.723192677@otto> s882916@otto (Vikki POLLARD) writes:
> 
> >I'm quite upset that not one other person in this group felt the way I
> >do. If you were ture feminists, as some call yourselves, you would
> >realise that every "choce" we make is not madde in isolation but comes
> >from past life experiences and societal pressure.

I fully agree that all choices are made on the bases of past life
experiances and societal pressure, (this includes negative choices such
as "I refuse to do this because this is what "X" expects me to do.") 
However this does not mean that the choice is invalid, or wrong.
> 
> Absolutely.  Nonetheless, as a "true feminist," I believe that people
> should be allowed to make their own decisions.  You criticize Roy
> telling her what to do, but you proceed to do the same thing yourself.
> You're saying that only you, as a "true feminist," can validate her
> choices.  What nonsense.  If you think she is ill-informed, by all
> means, inform her, but don't presume to criticize her choices because of
> what you *think* is going on!  Ask *her* what is going on, treat her as
> a rational human being.

Precisely!  This has always been one of the problems that I had with
the early feminist movement.  The whole point of having a choice is to
really have that choice.  If all that happens is you have to conform to
someone elses belief of how you should behave you don't really have the
freedom to choose, you've just changed who your masters/mistresses are.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Von Hendy            "If we shadows have offended,
Escondido, California       Think but this, and all is mended,
ncr-sd!blkhole!chris  or    That you have but slumbered here,
chris@unicorn.resun.com     While these visions did appear." Puck
From: zzaascd@hpa.ee.man.ac.uk (Colin Dente)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: UK soc.bi party
Date: 11 Dec 92 15:43:14 GMT
Reply-To: colin@manchester.ac.uk
Organization: Electrical Engineering Dept Manchester University

In article <1g65s2INNmk7@agate.berkeley.edu>, mlloyd@ocf.berkeley.edu (M. Lloyd) writes:
|> daveb@harlqn.co.uk (Dave Berry) writes:
|> >mlloyd@ocf.berkeley.edu (M. Lloyd) writes:
|> >>Resoundingly seconded on all points (excepting Alex, with whom I don't
|> >>think I've had the pleasure).
|> >
|> >Nonsense!  Alex was the first person to get the cream in the navel treatment
|> >from Ciaran.
|> 
|> Nyahah!  My Lord!  My memory for names!  I've not only met the man, I've
|> met his tonsils!  For unless I am much mistaken, he was also a part of
|> the five-headed beast guarding the door later that same evening.  A man
|> capable of distracting me from Colin (are you out there, Colin?
|> *hopefull*look*), which is no mean claim indeed!  Egad, the tactile
|> memory, between Colin's wondrous beard and Alex's short-cropped hair ..

Ahhh... memories of bliss...

|> Plans are afoot.  (as opposed to trotters, which are ahoof, or Colin,
|> who appears to be aloof, and me in a silly mood, aspoof)

Pas du tout, mon brave.  Colin is not aloof, he is just reading soc.bi
for the first time in absolutely *ages* (well, apart from a v. quick
shufty through about 100 articles last night).  Why has Colin been
away for so long?  Well, I've discovered this thing called "work".  I
didn't quite grasp the idea at first, but holding down a full time
job, running training courses for staff from other institutions, *and*
doing an M.Sc. in high energy physics has kinda made me realise what
it is.  The worst thing is that it involves getting up at quarter to
eight in the morning, getting to work for nine o'clock, and laeving
work at anywhere between seven and ten o'clock in the evening.  Oh
yeah, I forgot - I've also just had the running of the Manchester
Men's Bisexual Group dumped into my lap.  At the moment, my options
appear to be simple: either I'll collapse into a gibbering wreck (some
would say that that happened a long time ago), or I explode.
Personally, I don't care which happens - I just wish it would happen
*soon*.

Tired hugs,

Colin

|>           backrubber of devotion
Boy, could I use some backrubs!

|>                --The end of confusion is the beginning of death--
Reminds me of a famous quote from Chief Seattle "The end of living,
the beginning of survival" - at times, I think I understand what he
meant...

  Colin Dente                     | JANET: dente@uk.ac.manchester
  Manchester Computing Centre     | ARPA:  dente@manchester.ac.uk
  University of Manchester, UK    | UUCP:  ...!mcsun!ukc!manchester!dente
             	   ... I can't even *think* straight ...
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: elf@halcyon.com
Subject: Re: Porn (was Re: Vikki's Problems With Kerry&Me)
Originator: elf@halcyon.com
Organization: Pendor, UnLtd.
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 09:49:36 GMT

In article <1gp8ufINN8rb@agate.berkeley.edu>
     mlloyd@ocf.berkeley.edu (M. Lloyd) writes:

>rsr@soda.berkeley.edu (Roy S. Rapoport) writes:

>>One of the more memorable things that I believe she's said is that all
>>het intercourse is rape.

   "Fucking annihilates the woman, overwhelming her with a sense of
possession that ultimately leads to degredation and death.  This happens
regardless of how 'good' the woman thinks the fucking is."

   "This loss of self is a physical reality, not just a psychic
vampirism; and as a physical reality it is chilling and extreme, a
literal erosion of the body's integrity and it's ability to function
and survive.  This sexual posession is a state of being that borders on
antibeing until it ends in death.  The body dies, or the man discards
the body when it is used up, throws away like an old, useless thing,
and empty bottle.  The body is used up, the will is raped.  Intercourse
itself is sheer rape."

      - Andrea Dworkin.  "Intercourse," pg 78.  (Macmillian, 1987)

   Just to clear it up... more to come.

         Elf !!!
--
Elf Sternberg.   (elf@halcyon.com)
Due to a bureaucratic error, you are offered the job of county coroner.
You seriously consider accepting the job because it offers:          __
A. Unclaimed watches and wedding rings.                              \/
B. Gold fillings and bridges.
C. Free blood.
D. A constantly changing array of new friends who aren't at all stuffy
   about what happens to their genitalia.
From: seamus@ravel.udel.edu (James G Dilmore)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: A question about Stephen M. Conley
Date: 16 Dec 92 19:43:09 GMT
Organization: University of Delaware

In article <1glo4oINNgaf@agate.berkeley.edu> mlloyd@ocf.berkeley.edu (M. Lloyd) writes:
>>
>Ooh, don't, Kay, don't!  The *thought* of topping Jeremy Paxman (on
>national TV or otherwise, I don't care) makes me cross my legs and think
>of England ... second only in my media-based imagination to dreaming of
>group sex with the sundry presenters of The Late Show, maintaining
>cranial tittilation throughout by letting them witter on in their
>wonderfully good-humoured and elitist way while I do my damndest to
>break their individual composures ...
>
Now that sounds like the kind of debate I would like to take part in.
Maybe it could be worked into the Lincoln-Douglas format.

"And now Mr. Paxman, you have two minutes for fellatio."

>[Mike takes mental cold shower and reprimands himself for this unashamed
>display of UKcentric brain fetishism]
>
Jim joins him for the fun of it.

>(Are all the rest of you, Muffins et al, getting the impression that
>some soc.bi types have a certain fondness for Master Crisco?  I'd been

Who me?  No,  I don't waste bandwidth.  I don't believe in the senseless
waste of hundreds if not thousands of dollars just in order to flirt with
men and womyn around the world.  That is not ethically defensible.  O.
I guess I should stop now.

>maintaining a proper distance from the orgy of snuggling until now, but
>that was just because I didn't think Kay D would be making to the other
>ocean.)
>
O mike, Hugs and snuggles to you.
and join the festivities and we could raise it to a new level.
Let's blow the roof off of this system.:)

>hugs
>Mike
>-- 
>Mike Lloyd, B0/1 h- f- t w- g+ k+ s m- e? |    "Bloody nose and burning eyes

BTW, Kay boy are you going to have a long trip over to this continent.
-- 
Jim Dilmore - seamus@brahms.udel.edu    or    dilmore@che.udel.edu 
               SILENCE = DEATH      Safe sex doesn't mean no sex.          
Give me life, Give me pain,         It just means use your imagination. 
Give me myself again.  Tori Amos.            Billy Bragg
From: sean_v1@verifone.com
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Outed to your Parents - Advice??
Date: 16 Dec 92 01:07:42 -1000
Organization: Confused Souls, Ltd.

Hiya'll!  I've got a little problem, and I'm fishing for any advice from such
worldy people..  I have a friend, who is 17 and Bisexual.  His mother just
recently found out about it, and thinks it's just a phase, and suggests he go
to counseling..  He's very upset over the whole matter, and his mom has said
somethings that are very hurtful to him..   I've got some literature from PFLAG
about coming out to your parent's, it has alot of reassuring advice in it, even
if it's too late, to have a controled situation..  I was just wondering, if
any out there, has words of advice, or even encouregment for my friend..  I'll
forward any and all EMail to him..  



Thanks a bunch!!!


Se'an Michael 

-- 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Se'an Michael Ventura            |  Love is like a shooting star, brilliant
Verifone, Inc.                   |  and beautiful while it lasts...
100 Kahelu Ave.                  |  Friendships are like the stars on high,
Mililani, HI  96789              |  forever burning bright...
Sean_V1@Verifone.com             |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.bi,soc.motss
From: twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: Liberty (was something relevant about CO-2 long ago...)
Organization: Elitist Usenet Administrators, Turkey Division
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 20:49:00 GMT

In article <BzKq8n.3wL@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> dbshapco@napier.uwaterloo.ca (Brad Shapcott) writes:

>In article <1992Dec18.194804.2371@tc.cornell.edu> shore@dinah.tc.cornell.edu (Melinda Shore) writes:
>
>>I forgot, in my previous posting, to thank all you Big
>>Smart Men for explaining to us Poor Addled Women exactly
>>how to go about achieving gender parity.  Thanks!
>
>Why can't men understand or comment on gender parity?  Why does every 
>attempt to do so have to be characterized as condescending and arrogant?

(a) They can.  (b) They're not.

>People who are struggling
>with new ideas often appear sophomoric, arrogant and intellectually
>akward and the worst possible thing to do is to discredit them as worthwhile
>people because of this learning process.

Frankly, I don't think that this Alan person appears sophomoric,
arrogant, or intellectually awkward because he's struggling with new
ideas.  He appears arrogant because he says things like, "I don't
think this is an important issue for anybody."  He appears sophomoric
because he implies that problems of gender parity are all plotted by a
ruthless underworld of Thought Police.  He appears intellectually
awkward because he thinks that everything can be achieved if it's
sufficiently "hip."

He appears to be all of these things simply because he's *not*
struggling with new ideas; in fact, he's blissfully unaware of their
existence.

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / 
\  / twpierce@unix.amherst.edu /               Rocks say goodbye.
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) /
From: jcarroll@ravel.udel.edu (James Carroll)
Subject: Goodbye (and Happy Holidays)
Organization: CNS User Services, University of Delaware
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 17:35:19 GMT

Well, I'm finished.  Done.  No more papers, projects, exams or late night
study sessions.  I am now an alumnus of this institution, not a student. 
That's right...Hell's frozen over, for I am graduating.  

Which means that in a couple of months I'll be losing my account.  :-) I
don't know what I'll be doing (I have no job as of yet), so I don't know
if I'll have access to my account.  In case I don't, I want to say goodbye
to you all now.

This group and the fabulous people who comprise it have been wonderful for
me.  I really can't put into words how much this group has meant to me. 
It has helped me get through a lot.

So to all, I wish you happy holidays and wondrous lives.  I'm going to be
around for a few more days checking mail/news so feel free to mail/post
fruitfully. :-)  

Copious hugs to the lot of you.

And to all that will be visiting this fair state: I will be keeping in
touch withy Jim and the others so that I WILL NOT miss any visits.  For those
visiting Princeton, my parents near there; if I end up moving back home,
that's where I'll be.  (Personal to Tep and Kamal ((and anyone else for that
matter)), I downloaded all of my saved mail to floppies and thus don't have
your E-mail addresses available.  I'm going to be at my parent's house approx.
12/19-12/28.  Call me at (609)799-3096 and we can meet for dinner or
something.  Unfortunately, their house will be one big closet, so
discretion will be _greatly_ apprieciated.)

I will end this with one final quote that I feel is very relevant to this
group.  It is from "the real world" by Jesus Jones, off their _Liquidizer_
album.

--
I don't mind if I never, ever meet you/I love you just the way you seem
I don't mind all the things they say about you/Jealous words won't spoil
  this dream
--

*HUGS*

-James
-- 
I'm feeling kinda loose, I'm feeling kinda mean       | First I was a murderer
I've been feeling kinda wild since I turned seventeen | Then I was a saint
- Melissa Etheridge, "Ain't It Heavy"                 | -The Glove,
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-jcarroll@brahms.udel.edu-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-| "Like An Animal"
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: shelly@rachel.ibmpcug.co.uk (Shelly DelVeccio)
Subject: Re: De-muffinning 
Organization: The IBM PC User Group On-line services
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 19:20:27 GMT

In article <BzGtny.M0B@ibmpcug.co.uk> gtoal@rachel.ibmpcug.co.uk (Graham Toal) writes:
>
>Glad you could make it <smooch, smooch, naughty licks etc>

You have me at a disadvantage, suh!

Anyone want to hear a great story regarding my unsuccessful attempts to
get GT a Christmas present? ;-)

-sh
From: borah@cs.cornell.edu (Vicki Borah)
Subject: Re: Vikki's Problems With Kerry&Me
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 19:20:36 GMT

I've been reading this thread for a while now, and not posting on it,
mostly 'cause i'm not good at posting/editing stuff, 'cause by time I
get to artciles, they are old, and because Vikki's name and mine look
pretty similar, and I didn't want top get anyone confused.

For me, it's easier to trust that people in a queer BDSM relationship,
or in a het one where the woman is top, are less likely to be
explotatative than one where a woman is topped by a man. The reason
is, put simply, this: The first two are clearly *not*
society-standard; by pursuing this type of relationship, you are
almost automatically thinking in a different mode. For a male-top,
female-bottom relationship, you need to take the step away from
mainstream society that says abuse/rape/oppression of women is okay,
*and then come back to a relationship that may look the same from the
outside, but is very very different*. This is a big, extra
psychological step. I am convinced that Roy has taken that step. I do
not know Kerry as well, but i am willing to believe that she has taken
that step.

However, in general, that's why I am someone uncomfortable with this
style of relationship *in general*. It's just tougher to avoid falling
back into old patterns that bind us, rather than new patterns that
free us. It's harder work. For some people though, it is work which is
very possible to do, and well worth doing. For Roy and Kerry, I
believe that is true.

Hugs to you all.

Vicki, who just got a new big penis for her birthday