HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: aidler@sanjuan.UVic.CA (E Alan Idler)
Subject: Re: Abortion, Caves, Galen (WAS Vegetarianism and abortion)
Organization: University of Victoria
Date:  1 Jan 93 07:52:28 GMT

mcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mark A. Cochran) writes:

>In article <aidler.725611282@sanjuan> aidler@sanjuan.UVic.CA (E Alan Idler) writes:

>Bull. We have a phsycian who can determine the medical factors, and a
>woman who can determine her own needs. We don't need anything more.

>>I don't know how abortions are supervised in your
>>area (Virginia?), but here in B.C. there are people
>>who demand community clinics independent of hospitals
>>to provide for "women's health."
>>They would not supervise births or any form of natal
>>care other than abortions.
>>What are these clinics likely to recommend to 
>>a pregnant woman appearing at their door?
>>
>A woman who is going to an abortion clinic has already decided what
>she wants. Who are you to tell her what to do with her body?

A pregnant woman has some responsibility to the child
within her.  Since the child is in no position to assert
his or her rights, government has the duty to institute
reasonable procedures to protect him or her.

>There is no child in this discussion, only a fetus.
>Do try to get your facts straight.

Parents have children.
The fetus is the pregnant woman's child.
Your efforts to diminish this with vocabularly
don't change the facts.

>>Someone needs to independently judge that all parties
>>are fulfilling their obligations to the best of their 
>>abilities.
>>
>Abortion is a responsible way to handle an undesirable pregnancy. If
>you contend otherwise, please presen evidence, not Truth by Blatant
>Assertion.

Abortion may or may not be a responsible action to take.
Why is the pregnancy undesirable?
Have the best interests of the mother and child been
considered?
Compassion for both demands that evidence of this
needs to be provided to an independent party.

A IDLER
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: cj@eno.esd.sgi.com (C J Silverio)
Subject: Re: An End to the Sanctity of Human Life Argument
Followup-To: talk.politics.ditto-heads
Reply-To: cj@sgi.com (C J Silverio)
Organization: SGI TechPubs
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 93 04:57:51 GMT

---
mykes@shell.portal.com (mike myke schwartz) writes:
|Lastly, we have had Legal execution by the state and illegal execution
|by the state.  The harder it has been to perform executions for the state,
|the the worse violent crime rates increase over time. [...]

1.  You claim correlation, but haven't provided the numbers to
    show it.
2.  You imply causation, but have failed to demonstrate it.
3.  I don't think this discussion has anything to do with
    talk.abortion.

---
C J Silverio	cj@sgi.com	ceej@well.sf.ca.us
"People call me feminist whenever I express sentiments that
differentiate me from a doormat or a prostitute." --Rebecca West
Newsgroups: talk.abortion,soc.men,alt.dads-rights
From: margoli@watson.ibm.com (Larry Margolis)
Subject: Re: Biological Reasons for Male Choice
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 06:34:14 GMT
News-Software: IBM OS/2 PM RN (NR/2) v0.16f by O. Vishnepolsky and R. Rogers
Reply-To: margoli@watson.IBM.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: The Village Waterbed

In <1992Dec23.053750.21468@netcom.com> ray@netcom.com (Ray Fischer) writes:
>Granted, women get their share of hardships.  But is the issue merely
>a matter of getting even?

It is according to Karl...
--
Larry Margolis, MARGOLI@YKTVMV (Bitnet), margoli@watson.IBM.com (Internet)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: keegan@acm.rpi.edu (James G. Keegan Jr.)
Subject: lists
Organization: T.S.A.K.C.
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 14:43:37 GMT

first, the muffin posted lists.

then kellmeyer posted lists.

and now, PHoney is posting lists.

but that's just one similarity

Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: aidler@sanjuan.UVic.CA (E Alan Idler)
Subject: Re: independent party? (was: Abortion, Caves, Galen)
Organization: University of Victoria
Date:  1 Jan 93 11:46:49 GMT

cj@eno.esd.sgi.com.esd.sgi.com (C.J. Silverio) writes:

>In article <aidler.725614614@sanjuan>, aidler@sanjuan.UVic.CA writes:
>|An independent party needs to consider the opinion of
>|experts along with the interests of mother and child and 
>|evaluate how realistic the woman's desire for an 
>|abortion is compared with any reasonable alternatives.

>Why?  Why is it the business of any "independent party"?  Why
>not allow the woman or the couple (if it exists) to make
>decisions about her body?  Have you heard of the concept of a
>"right to privacy"?  

I am extending human rights to the fetus.
To extinquish those rights without an 
independent evaluation is not just.

>Would you like this "independent party" to make other decisions
>concerning this woman's body as well?  Say, which birth control
>method she should be using, which kinds of treatments she get
>for various illnesses, etc.?

How people manage their private lives is none
of my concern.

>Note that no child is involved in abortion.  The woman's
>interests are the only interests to consider.  If you feel
>otherwise, you have to prove your case.

Parents have children.
A pregnant woman is already a parent
(whether you or she chooses to acknowledge it or not).

A IDLER
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: drieux@wetware.com (drieux, just drieux)
Subject: Label is a Noun
Organization: Castle WetWare Philosopher and Sniper
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 09:42:10 GMT

dsholtsi@csl36h.csl.ncsu.edu (Doug Holtsinger) writes:
] 
] Doug Holtsinger
] 

Doodie, you missed the whole point!

she uses label as a noun!!!!

BadGirl! BadGirl!!!!!

That was what you should have Really Knocked
Her Down with Your Stunning Wit....

ciao
drieux



-- 
Modern Day Problems:

This is Not a .sigfile addendum to the Post.
You are just reading beyond the edge.
From: cj@eno.esd.sgi.com (C J Silverio)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: Abortion, Caves, Galen (WAS Vegetarianism and abortion)
Date: 4 Jan 93 03:56:00 GMT
Reply-To: cj@sgi.com (C J Silverio)
Organization: SGI TechPubs

---
psl@nrl.navy.mil (Paul Lebow) snipes:
|>>|> >You are a bitter person Muriel.  

nadja@jetsun.weitek.COM (Nadja Adolf) writes:
|Sorry Paul. We women in this group are used to being called bitter.
|Say what you mean. What you mean is Muriel doesn't agree with you and
|doesn't know her place. [...]

I like to use this particular quote in these cases.

---
C J Silverio	cj@sgi.com	ceej@well.sf.ca.us
"People call me feminist whenever I express sentiments that
differentiate me from a doormat or a prostitute." --Rebecca West
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: mcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mark A. Cochran)
Subject: Re: Garvin, Holtsinger, Pot, Kettle(?) Milk(?)
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: I'll let you know when I figure it out...
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 92 03:44:27 GMT

In article <nyikos.725581081@milo.math.scarolina.edu> nyikos@math.scarolina.edu (Peter Nyikos) writes:

[Susans post deleted, along with PHonee tripe]

>For the record, I have yet to see a documented case of "the Reverend"
>violating this commandment.
>
Just shows that we're correct about your reading comprehension,
doesn't it?

>In other words, does Doug also often set follow-ups to misc.test AND NOTHING
>ELSE, or does he never set them to misc. test, or does he sometimes set
>them to misc.test in addition to the other news groups?
>
DODie often sets follow-ups to misc.test and nothing else. But you
probably haven't noticed, since it requires you to understand how the
net works.

>With Garvin throwing so much shit against the wall, some of it is bound
>to stick, as here, unless someone like me asks questions like the above,
>and gets answers.
>
Doesn't matter, you ignore the answers. It's no doubt because you are
desperate to save the only one in t.a. silly enough to buy you as
credible.

>I have yet to see anyone prove Doug a liar, or even a breaker of the
>traditional commandment above.
>
That's because you are as out of touch with reality as DODie.

--
                  Mark Cochran          merlin@eddie.ee.vt.edu
These are the views of my employer. They also represent the views of
your employer, your government, the Church of your choice, and the
Ghost of Elvis. So there.
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: keegan@acm.rpi.edu (James G. Keegan Jr.)
Subject: Re: Aaargh! What *is* the TSAKC, anyway?!?
Organization: T.S.A.K.C.
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 04:24:02 GMT

sfm@manduca.neurobio.arizona.edu (Stephen Matheson) writes:
->keegan@acm.rpi.edu (James G. Keegan Jr.):
->> nyikos@math.scarolina.edu (Peter Nyikos) writes:
->> ->keegan@acm.rpi.edu (James G. Keegan Jr.) writes:
->> ->>say phoney, have you posted your apology for falsly
->> ->>accusing adrienne of posting a forgery?

->> ->I've tried TWICE to post something that would set the ball rolling in
->> ->the direction of cleaning up this issue once and for all. 

->> there is no need to post something to "set the ball
->> rolling." you lied in making a false accusation. you
->> were exposed as having lied on the day you posted your
->> lie. that was a long time ago. you have made countless
->> posts since then.

->> i don't think that your posting an apology at this late
->> daye will regain you any of the credibility you lost.
->> on the other hand, i strongly suspect that you will be
->> confronted with the fact that you do not have
->> sufficient character to deal with your problem over and
->> over by numerous posters until you do deal with it.

->Keegan on character.

don't worry. there will be a subject you understand in
another post, somewhere. i think.

->> ->It included apologies to (gasp!) you as well as to Susan and
->> ->Adrienne and clueless newbies, but my netserver LIED to me both
->> ->times that it had been posted and even listed the first attempt
->> ->in my index (the second was made during the week-and-a-half news
->> ->blackout).  I'll see if I can dig it up today and (groan!) make
->> ->a third attempt at posting it.

->> this claim rings pretty false to me. i don't know how
->> others will see it.

->I've seen the apology; Nyikos sent it to me by email before the first
->attempt to post.  I don't understand why you doubt his sad story about
->the server

are you referring to the same server which he used to
post over 100 articles since he posted his lie? is that
the server that won't post apologies?

Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: dsh@eceyv.ncsu.edu (Doug Holtsinger)
Subject: Re: a silly question 
Followup-To: talk.abortion
Organization: North Carolina State University
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 03:38:36 GMT

Susan "Tough Shit, Abortion Kills Children" Garvin writes:

>In article <6bz277k@rpi.edu> keegan@acm.rpi.edu (James G. Keegan Jr.) writes:
>>dsholtsi@csl36h.csl.ncsu.edu (Doug Holtsinger) writes:

>>> Does "TSAKC" do anything besides fabricating "net reputations"?

>> [... noise deleted ...] 

> Is [Mr. Holtsinger] pouting because he doesn't know what the acronym means,
> too?

I already know what it means, thanks to Mr. Matheson:

  TSAKC == Tough Shit, Abortion Kills Children


>  [.. various attempts at mind-reading deleted ..]
>
>Susan "Tough Shit, Abortion Kills Children" Garvin


Doug Holtsinger

Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: clavazzi@nyx.cs.du.edu (The_Doge)
Subject: Re: Suzanne's "Abortion kills children"
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Keywords: forced childbirth
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 18:09:58 GMT

In article <1grok2INN7sh@news.aero.org> zeus@aero.org (Dave Suess) writes:
>In article <1992Dec18.001750.13308@noao.edu>,
>	 forgach@noao.edu (Suzanne Forgach) writes:
>> ...
>
>>People who argue for abortion on demand have no hope in the betterment of
>>the human condition.  Despite millenia of history, they have absolutely
>>no concept that people can and do rise above circumstances, that every
>>adversity which is overcome produces new and wonderful opportunities and
>>accomplishments, not to mention, producing better, more caring, human beings.
>>Because in their hopeless state they cannot think of any other way, they
>>mistakenly fall into the trap of killing others to solve their problems.
>
>	This is certainly not true of me, and I do argue for 
>	abortion on demand (in truth, I argue against that kind
>	of "government" intrusion in childbirth, believing women
>	to be just as capable now as they have been for millennia).
>				Dave Suess	zeus@aerospace.aero.org
	You are, of course, wasting your time pointing this out.  Folks
like Forgach won't accept the idea that people of good will can disagree on
this issue for the simple reason that it's psychologically impossible for
them to do so.  As you could probably tell by her original post, it is
absolutely essential that anyone opposing her point of view be not only
absolutely, objectively WRONG, but that they posess a host of other negative
intellectual and emotonal properties as well.  It's a textbook case of what
psychologists call the "halo effect".
	You might as well try to hold rational discourse with a brick wall.
Which, now that I think of it, pretty well describes most of what goes on in
t.a.
	I know a few pro-lifers, personally, who are not determined to see
everyone on the pro-choice side as inherently stuipd, evil, or emotionally
disturbed.  It's possible to carry on relatively rational discussions with 
them.  Alas, I've yet to see anyone like them in t.a, probably because people
like that aren't inclined to post here.
	Fortunately they *do* exist, which is why initiatives like Common
Ground have had some success.  Unfortunately, leaders on both sides of the
issue will still have to deal with their True Believers, who will regard
any dealing with the other side as an act of treason.

The_Doge
        ObQuote: "Power is trouble and trouble isn't funny!"
                                -- The Firesign Theatre


Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: mcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mark A. Cochran)
Subject: Re: An End to the Sanctity of Human Life Argument
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: None worth mentioning.
Distribution: na
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 93 04:02:40 GMT

In article <1993Jan2.023231.20886@ncsu.edu> dsholtsi@csl36h.csl.ncsu.edu (Doug Holtsinger) writes:
>In article <1993Jan2.014655.18304@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> 
>mcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mark A. Cochran) writes:
>>dsholtsi@csl36h.csl.ncsu.edu (Doug Holtsinger) writes:
>
>>> Can you show me any textbook on embryology or obstetrics 
>>> which mixes the terms 'woman' and 'fetus', instead of
>>> using the terms 'gravida' and 'fetus'? 
>
>> Here's some quotes for you 
>>
>>  [.. quotes deleted ..] 
>
>None of the quotes which you provided contained the terms 
>'fetus' and 'woman' together.  You did provide quotes which
>contained the term 'woman' alone, but that's not what I
>asked for.  Try reading my request *carefully* and *slowly*
>so that it sinks in. 
>
Bad news DODie, you're going to have to do your own reading. Since you
claim that the terms fetus and gravida go together, show all of us
some quotes of your own. I've provided plenty that show that the term
woman is used extensively, and provided a quote which shows how
gravida is used in the context of medicine.

Personally, I think you'll run away from this one too.

--
                  Mark Cochran          merlin@eddie.ee.vt.edu
These are the views of my employer. They also represent the views of
your employer, your government, the Church of your choice, and the
Ghost of Elvis. So there.
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: mcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mark A. Cochran)
Subject: Re: t.a. FAQ (part 3 of 3)
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: None worth mentioning.
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 93 07:11:03 GMT

In article <1992Dec31.203102.9788@ncsu.edu> dsh@eceyv.ncsu.edu (Doug Holtsinger) writes:

[Deletia]

>I believe the public has been grossly misinformed
>about Roe v. Wade by the media, and I wish to counter
>that misinformation with correct information. 
>
HURRAY! So when are you going to post some, instead of posting your
usual lies, gibberish, and attempts at mindreading?

--
                  Mark Cochran          merlin@eddie.ee.vt.edu
These are the views of my employer. They also represent the views of
your employer, your government, the Church of your choice, and the
Ghost of Elvis. So there.
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: keegan@acm.rpi.edu (James G. Keegan Jr.)
Subject: Re: The Idiocy of PHoney Nyikos
Keywords: pro-lie
Organization: T.S.A.K.C.
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1992 01:46:05 GMT

sgast+@pitt.edu (Susan Garvin) writes:
->keegan@acm.rpi.edu (James G. Keegan Jr.) writes:
->#sgast+@pitt.edu (Susan Garvin) writes:
->#->Gee, PHoney, don't you know what "mendacity" means?  If you wanted
->#->to show that I was lying, it really would have helped if you had
->#->included at least one example of me lying.  You didn't.
->#
->#it appears that phoney is trying the early-darcy
->#technique of attempting to post so many characters that
->#readers become numb and don't read the words made by
->#the characters.

->Did Darcy berate people for not reading every word that he
->wrote?  

not that i recall. i believe, at that time, he was
trying to convince someone, anyone it seemed, that his
definitive analysis of whatever he was failing at
definitively analyzing, was relevant.

->PHoney seems to think that everyone is required to
->read all of his posts - his main thesis in this article
->was that I didn't reply to some comment he made months
->ago.   I wonder how deep the similarities go.

neither one of them seems to mind making false
accusations. they both use a fake, stilted writing
style similar to the style a child might adopt if
trying to make adults think the child was grown up.
neither of them seems to understand the reactions they
generate from net.readers. my guess is that darcy is
smarter than phoney.

->#isn't it odd that he's made about 100 posts which have
->#reached the net since he posted his lie about adrienne
->#and none of his alleged apologies have appeared?

->No, it's not odd.  I think he's lying again.  Another
->pro-forcer has claimed that Nyikos sent *him* an apology
->to Adrienne.  If this were true, why didn't that guy post
->it for Nyikos?  

i saw that claim. i didn't believe it.

->I don't think Nyikos has ever apologized to Adrienne, and I
->don't think he's going to do so.  If he were, he would have
->done it by now.  He's typed in, as you said, thousands of
->characters.  He could apologize in less than 50 characters.

i don't think he's going to apologize either. i think
he'll simply fade away from t.a., and perhaps some
other newsgroups, as he realizes how many people see
him as a liar.

Xref: sparky talk.abortion:53094 alt.abortion.inequity:6198
From: goid@zooid.guild.org (Will Steeves)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion,alt.abortion.inequity
Subject: I meant "one letter in *two* positions," ugh!
Date: 27 Dec 92 18:29:00 GMT
Organization: The Zoo of Ids
X-To: MICHAL LEAH PERI

peri@cco.caltech.edu (Michal Leah Peri)
>Will Steeves <goid@zooid.guild.org> writes:

>>If the woman does not believe that she would be able to adequately provide for
>>the child, she has EVERY RIGHT to adopt or abort (is the one letter difference
>>a coincidence, you ask...?  <-: ).

>Will, I suggest you re-count!

I thought that someone would ding me for not explaining this clearly enough -
I *meant* the similarity of the words with respect to substituting "one letter"
in *two positions*.  I neglected to write "in two positions" when I wrote my
reply.

Sue me, then.  :-)

(Actually, maybe I should end all my messages with E&OE..  "Errors and
Omissions Excepted" :-) )

---
Will Steeves, goid@zooid.guild.org                      "Neil Hull is GOiD"
ZOOiD BBS, Toronto, Ontario - The Zoo Of Ids            "GOiDS Rule"
(416) 322-7876

"Gravity: It's more than just a fragrance.  It's the LAW!"
   - Will Steeves, President, GOiDS "R" We, Inc.

 * SLMR 2.1a * It's 10 PM. Do you know where your PC is?
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: MEET GEORGE TILLER, LATE-TERM ABORTIONIST Part Two
From: sgast+@pitt.edu (Susan Garvin)
Date: 28 Dec 92 20:34:10 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Keywords: stunning anecdotes


Wow.  It must be true, right, his mom's a *nurse.*  (I hadn't realized
that there was a connection between one's mother's occupation and 
one's trustworthiness before.)  Never mind that nothing about the
little tale rings true, we're supposed to accept it because this
bozo said it was true.

I think PHoney's found a new friend.

Susan
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: kevin@rotag.mi.org (Kevin Darcy)
Subject: Re: Slavery and abortion
Organization: Who, me???
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 14:17:48 GMT

In article <1993Jan3.061908.21508@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> mcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mark A. Cochran) writes:
>In article <1993Jan3.033806.10827@rotag.mi.org> kevin@rotag.mi.org (Kevin Darcy) writes:
>
>[Deletions, merciful deletions]
>
>>Galen, I can easily pay a medical drone to tell me whether a given fetus
>>is "viable" or not, according to the accepted and universal medical 
>>definitions.
>
>I know I've said this before, but I guess I'll have to say it again.
>Kevin, there is no "accepted and universal medical definition[s]" of
>viability. We have guidlines. We can say, with a resonable amount of
>surety, that some fetuses are viable, and some are not. In between
>these two points is a rather large grey area in which the fetus
>*might* be viable, if it gets lucky, and if it happens to be delivered
>in a major metropolitan hospital with ready access to the latest
>technology. We can say that the lower limit on viability is about 20
>weeks, *if* you're willing to settle for an infant that may survive,
>but is permanently and severely handicapped, and may well require
>permanent intitutionalization. We can say that after about 26 weeks,
>there is a resonable chance of a relatively normal child being
>discharged, with 6-8 months of hospitalization first. And a few
>relatively minor lifelong handicaps, quite likely.
>Please don't try to rationalize this Kevin, just admit that you are
>mistaken.

I'll go along with whatever the Supreme Court's definition of "viability" 
is, Mark. This is not a matter of "right" or "wrong" or "correct" or 
"mistaken"; it's only a matter of what definition one chooses. I choose
that one.

The other so-called "issue", i.e. whether Kevin Darcy can detect the
viability of a given fetus, is a diversion tactic, which has already 
exploited more of my time that it deserves.

>>That's "two", not "too", I assume, and you're wrong -- I've accidentally
>
>Tsk Tsk Kevin, don't spelling flames come under what you describe as
>"pointless ad hominen attacks"

1) Spelling flames are not, strictly speaking, ad hominems, unless one
   subscribes to the questionable theory that there is an absolute
   correlation between intelligence and spelling skills, which I don't.

2) Acknowledgement of a fairly obvious typo is NOT a "spelling flame"
   unless it is made in an inflammatory way, which the above was not.

3) Here's an example of a real spelling flame: 

	You spelled "ad hominem" wrong, Markie Moron!

								- Kevin
Newsgroups: talk.abortion