From: rsr@soda.berkeley.edu (Roy S. Rapoport)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Role Models (was Gay Homophobia)
Date: 22 Aug 1992 21:49:58 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley, CS Undergraduate Association
NNTP-Posting-Host: soda.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Aug22.205900.33143@watson.ibm.com> jakec@ralvmm.vnet.ibm.com (Jake Coughlin) writes:
->rsr@soda.berkeley.edu (Roy S. Rapoport):
->>>need to see that they can be gay without becoming (gasp) nelly
->>>think of it, my good friends, Instant Nelly, the breakfast bar.
->> 
->> Hmm ... are you disputing this?
->
->you seem to miss sarver's point a bit, roy.  sarver wants nelly gays
->to stop coming out of the closet because that sends bad messages to
->closetted masculine gays and otherwise normal society.  do i dispute

Whoops.  

Err, yes.  You're right.  I missed his point entirely. 
Sorry.

->exist in this heterosexist world, but still, i am open for my personal
->freedom, not for the emotional well-being of others.  i have no
->responsibility to be a role model.  i owe closet cases very little
->whereas i owe myself everything.

Of course ....

->this process, you may notice that you're acquiring some "feminine"
->traits although this isn't a very precise statement.  is camp, aka
->humor, effeminate?  is compromise effeminate?  is self-reflection
->effeminate?  is the ability to relate effeminate?  if so, then i'm
->proud to be effeminate, and i pick my lee press-on nails in your
->general direction.  [there's a subtle point in that little bit o'
->drag.]

Hmm ... OK ... I've actually been wondering about that ... I *think* I'm
slowly acquiring some of these traits.  If those are effeminate, then I'd
say everyone should be a bit more effeminate.

->> I can only offer my own personal
->> experience and tell you that that is something I'm very concerned about with
->> regards to myself ... I find myself watching this part of myself very
->> carefully ... It's probably not very rational, I'd agree.  But for me, it is
->> a concern.
->
->then this, pardon my lack of diplomacy, is *your* problem.  more

Umm, yes.  Your point? I didn't imply (Well, I don't *think* I implied) that
this was anyone's problem but my own ... it's something for me to deal with,
for me to become comfortable with.  I simply brought it up as an extension
of my statement earlier that I think some male queers coming out of the
closet (to themselves, at least) may fact that problem.

->precisely, in the context of gender, i don't need to qualify my
->behavior as positive/negative.  unlike you, i would rather qualify
->your reaction to my behavior as positive/negative, and if i decide
->you're being negative, then you can not so kindly shove off.  i'm
->working on myself, where you have no jurisdiction.

Well, yes ... did you feel that my reaction to your behavior was negative?
In case i didn't make myself clear, Jake, I try not to judge ... and that
includes the article you were responding to.  I was just offering my
personal viewpoint with regards to how the subject relates to me ... or with
regards to how I relate to the subject.

->as an essay question for you, why precisely are you so concerned?  it
->seems to me that this self-cinema would waste considerable resources
->when you realize just how much you're missing of what truly matters to
->*you*.

Probably because to a large degree I'm (or was? *shrug*) rather macho, in a
certain part of myself, and as such my masculinity is pretty important to me
...

->> I have learned, and still am learning, to
->> be open and natural and confident about who I am, what I am, and
->> what my tastes are like
->
->then, dear heart, apply this lesson to your nelly-filter.

Hmm ... it's much easier for me to be comfortable about what I am with
others, than it is to be comfortable about what I am with myself ... 

Great point, though ...

->> Eric Neville, one of my two best straight friends, is a role model
->
->i can't imagine why you would juxtapose Eric's sexual orientation with
->his eligibility as a role model.  ohhhhh, i see... been there, done
->that.

OK ... color me clueless ... been where, done what?

->oh dear.  i would suggest you find a nice, compfy leather chair.  sit
->down.  relax.  it'll all be over soon.

I certainly hope not ... I like it.  Of course, our definition of ``it'' may
not be the same.

->jake, who really hopes this doesn't sound too condescending since
->the voice in his head doesn't sound a bit like the phosphor coming
->thru the screen...

Well, it does sound a bit condescending and antagonistic.

But you have a right to your opinion, and to express it whichever way you
want to express it.


-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roy S. Rapoport					rsr@ocf.berkeley.edu
Disclaimer:  "It wasn't me!! Must have been a fake posting or something!! I
              would NEVER say something like that!!" 
Newsgroups: soc.motss