HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dpeders1@cc.swarthmore.edu (Daniel Pedersen)
Subject: Re: Renewable Energy - solar
Reply-To: dpeders1@cc.swarthmore.edu (Daniel Pedersen)
Organization: Swarthmore College
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1992 03:59:57 GMT

Richard Stead mentioned that not all places are like So.Cal - some of them
have clouds.

That's true, but not all the solar energy that can be utilized is in beam
form, although that is the form which carries the most energy.  It is,
however, possible to utilize the diffuse component of solar radiation to
generate heat, especially when dealing with lower temperature hot air
collectors.

During a recent experiment we ran for my Solar Energy Systems Engineering
class, we measured the incident radiation every 5 minutes for a week long
period.  At solar noon, the beam normal radiation (measured on a surface
always perpendicular to the sun's rays) was ~800 Watts/m^2.  On a horizontal
surface the total radiation was ~600 W/m^2.  The calculated beam radiation 
on a horizontal surface was ~550 W/m^2 and the diffuse radiation was
50-100 W/m^2.  These values are for a clear day.  While it is by no means
huge, the diffuse radiation is not negligible.

On a partly cloudy day, our data shows that when the sky is overcast, the
beam component drops by a large amount, and the diffuse radiation
increases.  I can explain this by assuming that the beam component striking
the clouds is converted to diffuse radiation.  When the normal beam
radiation dropped to zero, the diffuse radiation rose to 250 and even 300
W/m^2.  So there is a large amount of radiation available even on overcast
days.  (for reference, during the sunny parts of this day the values of the
different forms of the radiation were close to the values listed above).

So while I disagree that the alternative energy forms are as unreliable as
the author of the paper states (sorry, forgot your name!), I also disagree
with Richard when he writes off solar energy because of cloud cover.  My
prof says that his research shows that a solar collector system can be 
viable in the Philadelphia area, which is often cloudy.

We are now running a heating system simulation on the collectors (hot water
+ antifreeze), and have had some cloudy days.  At the end of next week we
should have some good results regarding the performance of the collector as
a heating source.

-->Daniel Pedersen  -  Keren's Daddy		(215)543-8961
	dpeders1@cc.swarthmore.edu	pedersen@engin.swarthmore.edu
======================================================================
Highway sign on I-10, AZ: "Federal Prison - Do Not Pick Up Hitch-Hikers"
	50 yards later: "Campground	Next Right"
"Why do you kill people?"   -   "I am a terminator."  [Terminator 2]

Newsgroups: sci.energy,sci.environment
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: opening of the first self-sufficient solar house, Press Release
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
Date: 10 Nov 92 06:27:45

Is it thought to be desirable to not use the electric grid?
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
From: stead@skadi.CSS.GOV (Richard Stead)
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: Re: ==> Gov. Clinton Responds To the Internet
Date: 5 Nov 92 13:16:01 GMT

In article <1992Nov5.005421.21249@cs.rochester.edu>, dietz@cs.rochester.edu (Paul Dietz) writes:
> In article <51418@seismo.CSS.GOV> stead@skadi.CSS.GOV (Richard Stead) writes:
> >Total nonsense.  natural gas is a hydrocarbon fuel just like gasoline.
> >The difference in CO2 emissions is small, and as I recall, methane and
> >ethane will release more CO2 to accomplish the same work as the longer
> 
> 	Compound	Heat of combustion
> 			(kcal/mole)		(kcal/mole carbon)
> 	methane		212.79			212.79
> 	ethane		372.81			186.41
> 	propane		530.57			176.86
> 	n-octane	1302.7			162.84
> 	benzene		780.96			130.16
> 	carbon		 94.1			 94.1
> 
> As you can see, there is a direct relation between the H/C
> ratio of the fuel and the energy per CO2 emission.  Use of natural
> gas instead of coal would indeed cut CO2 emissions at least
> in half.  Moreover, natural gas can be burned more efficiently
> than can coal, in combined cycle plants.  The most efficient
> CC gas fired plant in the world has an efficiency of 52.5%.

Mea Culpa.  I forgot about the hydrogens.  However, Clinton said
"I'll start by ordering the conversion of
the federal vehicle fleet to natural gas fuel."
So, he wasn't concentrating on coal.  The difference between burning
the pentanes to octanes of gasoline vs. methanes and ethanes in
natural gas is not as large as comparing it to coal.  And the difference
in efficiency in automobiles is likely to be less when compared to coal
as well.  So gasoline is about 170kcal/C, natural gas is about 200 - a
15% difference in CO2 emmissions.  Converting from a Lincoln Continental
to a Geo Metro makes a much bigger impact.  A 15% difference is small
enough that he would do well to consider the impact that all the
secondary effects of conversion will have - how much energy will
be consumed in the manufacture and installation of the conversion
equipment and the disposal of the existing equipment.  This will also
produce CO2 and pollution, but given my performance on the burning
issue, I will not hazard a guess as to the amount.

I do apologize for posting in error, however.  And thank you for your
polite response.


--
Richard Stead
Center for Seismic Studies
Arlington, VA
stead@seismo.css.gov
Newsgroups: sci.energy
From: akerson@deimos.af.mil (Pete Akerson - akerson%srg@uunet.uucp)
Subject: Re: Propane powered vehicles - enough propane ?
Organization: Arinc Research Corp.
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 19:28:00 GMT


                     
lizard@cats.ucsc.edu (Raul Essig) replied :

>> Just to offer a positive example:  The University of Calif. at Santa Cruz
>> has shuttle busses that circle the campus all day ( and some at night )
>> and many of these run off of propane.  Many of the work crew pickups
>> as also fueled by propane.

A warehouse where I was sweating for tuition used propane powered forklifts.
The exaust was a little smelly but not noxious. ( around 1982 or so. )

Anyone know what the supply of propane is like compared to natural gas ?
From: bari_weick@qm.sri.com (Bari Weick)
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: Re: IEEE Spectrum Electric Vehicles article
Date: 12 Nov 92 20:03:01 GMT
Followup-To: sci.energy
Organization: SRI International


I do not have current info on this, but I do have 2 articles in my files
that describe a project involving Los Angeles Dept. of Water and Power and
Southern Cal. Edison Co. (The Battery Man, July 1991; Popular Science,
Aug. 90).

The plan was to bury conductors along a 1000-ft section of a 5000-ft test
road for
inductive pickup by a small passenger bus and two vans. The project is
called the
Playa Vista Roadway Powered Electric Vehicle Demonstration Project.

A major concern is the estimated cost of $1.5 million per lane mile; there
are some
12,000 freeway lane miles in the Los Angeles-San Diego region. (from the
Pop Sci
article)

Privacy is a concern I would have if each car's usage was tracked for
billing. Perhaps
one could purchase power credits (by phone, onto a smart card?) and have
credits
deducted as one drives.

For more info, you could start with the public relations or media relations
departments
of the companies above. SCE is at 818-302-1212, I believe. Also try the
South Coast Air
Quality Management District (714-572-6200) and the Electric Power Research
Inst.
(415-855-2000). Lawrence O'Connell in the Transportation Program of EPRI's
Customer Systems Div. might be able to help you.

Some of my colleagues recently completed a large multiclient study on
electric vehicles,
but I don't know how much coverage it gave to roadway-powered vehicles.


Bari Weick
SRI International
From: howard.smith@spacebbs.com (Howard Smith)
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: Re: Where to get Electric
Date: 9 Nov 92 18:55:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: spacebbs.3934.1017.uupcb
Reply-To: howard.smith@spacebbs.com (Howard Smith)
Distribution: world
Organization: SPACE BBS - Menlo Park, CA - 10 Lines + 4gB - 415-323-4193

CM>If a very high capacity MOSFET controller is used, the transistors are loade
CM>less, and therefore lose less power to heat.

CM>I read that in a book about solar-powered cars.

Not completely true, larger junction transistors have larger
capacitances and therefore higher switching losses, so that even with no
load they would exhibit an increased loss of efficiency. There is a
break point where switching losses equal I^2 R losses in the
controller from current delivered to the load.

hhs
---
 . SLMR 2.1a . Hello, I am part number ................
                                                                                    
Newsgroups: sci.energy
From: gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: Re: A Compressed-Air Car -- Possible?
Date: 10 Nov 92 17:46:01 GMT
Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman)
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group

In article <1992Nov9.155936.11659@bsu-ucs> 01crmeyer@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu (Craig Meyer) writes:
>I'm looking into the concept of running an automobile off of compressed air.
>
>According to my calculations (based on a Gast airmotor catalogue), such a
>vehicle would need air tanks that could hold 100,000 psi.
>
>Is that at all possible?

That's pushing uncomfortably close to the tensile limits of steel. 40,000
PSI is about the maximum pressure used today in order to maintain a comfortable
safety margin. Even at this pressure, the vessel is about 50/50 steel to
gas by volume. See a high power rifle for this type of pressure chamber.

Gary
From: howard.smith@spacebbs.com (Howard Smith) 
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: Re: Electric Car feasible
Date: 7 Nov 92 05:15:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: SPACE BBS - Menlo Park, CA - 10 Lines + 4gB - 415-323-4193
Reply-To: howard.smith@spacebbs.com (Howard Smith) 

VM>Since the cruising power is approximately 10KW, this represents a
VM>16% increase in power consumption.   Thus it would seem that this
VM>too would not be a problem (of course your acceleration may not
VM>be great).

VM>Thus it seems the above rough calculations suggest that the elevation
VM>difference is not a big factor (but it is a factor, you are likely to
VM>see a 10-20% decrease in 'gas' milage)

Nice induction.

However, wouldn't he experience a 10-20% increase in 'gas' mileage
during the during the down hill, morning commute - especially if the car
was equipped with regenerative braking?

hhs
---
 . SLMR 2.1a . This tagline is umop apisdn
                                                                                                              
Newsgroups: sci.energy
From: abrown@hpcvcec.cv.hp.com (Allen Brown)
Subject: Re: Notch another one up
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1992 01:31:57 GMT

dpe@inel.gov (Don Palmrose) writes:
[deleted]
DP> But Greenpeace reason was that their actions superceeded the
DP> rights of the US Navy to freely test their weapon systems *in
DP> accordance to all international laws*.  In summary,
DP> Greenpeace was completely and absolutely wrong in this case.

If you reword this to
  ``Greenpeace was completely and absolutely illegal in this case.''
then I think we can all agree with your statement.  The problem with
using the word ``wrong'' is that it has moral connotations.  And
morality has no absolute definition, inspite of what some people would
like.  Greenpeace believed that it was morally wrong *not* to do what
they did.  As someone else pointed out, this is called Civil
Disobedience.

Consider this:
  Is it morally wrong to steal another persons lawful property?
  What if that property happens to be a slave?

DP> So now that we have beaten this subject to death, let's move on to
DP> some real sci.energy topics.

Oh all right.
--
  Allen C. Brown  abrown@cv.hp.com or hplabs!hpcvca!abrown or "Hey you!"
      Not representing my employer.
    The inspiration of the Bible depends on the ignorance of the
    gentleman who reads it. ---Robert G. Ingersoll
From: 01crmeyer@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu (Craig Meyer)
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: Re: Where to get Electric
Date: 9 Nov 92 20:51:59 GMT
Organization: Ball State University, Muncie, In - Univ. Computing Svc's


 
> Check out the October 28, 1992 EE Times/Celebrating the Engineer issue.
> The first tribute is to a 33 yr. old, CalTech grad, who got bored
> working on the GM Impact electric car, quit and designed his own. He has
> a one speed mechanical linkage to the wheels and a 100kw electronic
> (MOSFET) controller that gets so hot he has to put two fans on it. Seems
> to me that is about an order of magnitude too much power - 134 horses of
> which about 60% can be delivered to the wheels in a Honda CRX? That's
> one hot car. Too hot!                                              

If a very high capacity MOSFET controller is used, the transistors are loaded
less, and therefore lose less power to heat.

I read that in a book about solar-powered cars.

CM

--                                                                  
       Craig Meyer                 01CRMEYER@LEO.BSUVC.BSU.EDU
       Indiana Academy for Science, Mathematics, and Humaities.
       Muncie, IN  47306                          317-285-7433

       Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not necessarily
       shared by the Indiana Academy.
Newsgroups: sci.energy
From: wung@puttgen.ee.gatech.edu (Peter Wung)
Subject: Re: More chatter on electric vehicles ...
Reply-To: wung@puttgen.ee.gatech.edu
Organization: Sun Microsystems
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 14:23:58 GMT

In article 1dt0kcINNii3@darkstar.UCSC.EDU, lizard@cats.ucsc.edu (Raul Essig) writes:
>|
>|In article <1992Nov11.184055.7336@srg.srg.af.mil> akerson@deimos.af.mil (Pete Akerson - akerson%srg@uunet.uucp) writes:
>|>  As a filthy black cloud farted out of the school bus ahead
>|>of me on my way to work, I wondered 
>|>"Why arent those things electric ?"
>|
>|Just to offer a positive example:  The University of Calif. at Santa Cruz
>|has shuttle busses that circle the campus all day ( and some at night )
>|and many of these run off of propane.  Many of the work crew pickups
>|as also fueled by propane.  Being a member of the work crew this last
>|summer I had an in depth discussion with one of the people whose truck
>|was converted.  According to her, when the truck was converted
>|( the successfull second time ) she could not determine any kind of
>|performance difference whatsoever.  And considering that the cost of the
>|propane is effectively HALF that of gasoline in California, they are
>|saving quite a bit of money in the end.  This is part of an alternative fuel
>|program that is a UC Santa Cruz/ UC Berkeley (I think) joint project.  
>|I hear that according to the studies the propane engines are putting out 
>|somewhere between 15 and 20 percent of the pollutants of internal combustion
>|engines.  The only difference I ever witnessed ( I never actually drove one ) 
>|was that it sounded "kinda funny".  It was a little quiter than a convention
>|truck, but in a wierd kind of way.  It's difficuly to describe.  
>|Mass transit seems to me to be crying out for alternative fuel programs.
>|
>|-Raul Essig
>|


So what was the capital cost in converting these things to propane?
Have they figured out the return on investment?  How about factory
built propane burning vehicles?  How much are they?

Just curious.

********************************************************************
*Peter Wung			Email:wung@ee.gatech.edu	   * 
*Electric Power Laboratory	Snail mail: 33787 Ga. Tech Station * 
*School of Electrical Engineering	    Atlanta, GA 30332      *
*Georgia Institute of Technology			    	   *
*Atlanta, Georgia						   *
*   	"Pass, Set, CRUSH!"...					   * 
*  	Well, 2 out of 3 ain't bad for a short, fat guy. 	   *
*								   *
********************************************************************
From: gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: Re: IEEE Spectrum Electric Vehicles article
Date: 10 Nov 92 17:42:33 GMT
Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman)
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group

In article <1992Nov9.150848.28757@icd.ab.com> jennings@icd.ab.com writes:
>
>I thought that this pickup technology would eliminate the battery problem,
>provide a good role for government support, and even allow for electric
>"18-wheelers."  The government could provide for power cable laid in all paved
>streets and set up a vehicle power utility that would track how much power
>each vehicle used and arrange for billing.  Only a small battery that would
>power the vehicle to and from the street cable is needed, and could be 
>recharged while driving.  Finally, enough power would be available for even 
>heavy freight transport.
>
>Does anyone know if a detail proposal based on this approach has ever been
>presented?  If so, were there any flaws that kept the proposal from being
>implemented?  

Powered roadways are the subject of ongoing research. Non-contact, induction
coupling is at present very inefficient because it's basically an air core
transformer and uncontrolled flux leakage is a major source of loss at low
frequencies. At radio frequencies, coupling losses are reduced somewhat, but 
radiation losses skyrocket, and power rectification at radio frequencies is 
difficult and expensive. Contact methods, such as live third rails, are still
much more efficient. Special gap cores are being investigated. Theoretically 
they can have very low flux leakage, but they are hard to realize in practice 
in long lengths without special alignment fixtures between the roadway and the 
vehicle. Automatic vehicle guidance could solve this problem. DOT is operating
two experimental highways, one in California, and one in Detroit, to test
these ideas.

Gary
From: 01crmeyer@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu (Craig Meyer)
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: More External-Combustion Info
Date: 13 Nov 92 17:51:19 GMT
Organization: Ball State University, Muncie, In - Univ. Computing Svc's

The problems with size and wieght experienced with the GM Steam Car, and steam
engines in general, make me consider using a gas as the working fluid.

Here are some important stats on certain gases available to us:

     Gas           Specific heat (cal/g)   Viscosity(micropoises)

     Hydrogen      3.41                    108 at 130 deg
     Helium        1.24                    228 at 100 deg
     Nitrogen (air) .249                   219 at 130 deg
     steam         <1                      125 at 100 deg

I reason that a gas's viscosity is important, becuase we'll have to pump it
back through the heater without condensing it), and that 
will be a significant power drain.          

(then again, we don't have to overcome any latent heat in boiling)
                                          
Any comments on pumping gases to very high pressures (c200+ psi)?  Exacly how 
is that done, anyway?  Some variety of positive-displacement pump, I'd guess.
_______________________________________

And what kind of engine would be best?

Could turbocharger-like turbines be easily adapted to this use, since they are
used to handling high temperature (1000 deg F) gases?

Or would we resort to the old-reliable piston engine, complicated as it is?

What about gas leakage?
   
Hope to hear from you all, and thanks again for your help!

CM

-- 
       Craig Meyer                 01CRMEYER@LEO.BSUVC.BSU.EDU
       Indiana Academy for Science, Mathematics, and Humaities.
       Muncie, IN  47306                          317-285-7433

       Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not necessarily
       shared by the Indiana Academy.
Newsgroups: sci.energy
From: pngai@adobe.com (Phil Ngai)
Subject: Re: Where to get Electric Car kits?
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 09:46:24 GMT

In article <1992Nov7.024025.10371@michael.apple.com> ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith) writes:
>100 HP?  Electric?  My God, man, I'm talking about a HONDA ... with
>a 1500 cc gasoline engine at present.  I think 15-20 is more like it...

Of the 4 models of Honda Civics sold today, the HP ratings are 70, 92,
102, 125.  3 out of 4 are close to or over 100 HP. Mine is a 92 HP
model. It's a nice, fast accelerating car and I would hate to drive
anything slower. I suspect (but don't know) the weight of the car with
batteries is going to be higher than a gas powered version.

But I agree, probably 15-20 HP for an electric might be reasonable.

>>serious power electronics. Got any 75 amp relays?
>
>Why, yes, several.  One on each starter motor in each of my cars.
>High capacity relays are rather easy to buy, too.

Well, remember that starter mechanisms are low duty cycle rated.
Could it handle 75 amps continuously? This isn't a real big deal,
(getting the relays can be done) however.

-- 
My opinions are my own.
From: ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith)
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: Re: Renewable energy from the sun
Date: 10 Nov 92 01:34:01 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA

In article <1992Nov6.171522.1259@access.usask.ca> choy@skorpio.usask.ca (I am a terminator.) writes:
>Most of our energy comes from the sun (which is not renewable, but we
>have no control of this). If we conserve energy, can we live off solar
>energy alone? What has been shown? Let's compare our basic energy needs
>to the energy we can get from sunlight. Can we gather enough energy from
>sunlight to live on and to construct energy saving goods? Do we have an
>energy surplus?

The 'short answer' is yes, we can get all we need and then some
directly from the sun.  (Get a copy of 1990 Sept. Scientific American
for the actual numbers).  It is also true that there is no reason to
do this yet, since it would cost more than using the also very abundant
{oil,coal,tar sand, natural gas, nuclear, ...}


-- 

E. Michael Smith  ems@apple.COM

'Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it.  Boldness has
 genius, power and magic in it.'  -  Goethe

I am not responsible nor is anyone else.  Everything is disclaimed.
Newsgroups: sci.energy,sci.environment
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: opening of the first self-sufficient solar house, Press Release
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
Date: 12 Nov 92 10:24:03

In article <1992Nov12.124743.23938@bernina.ethz.ch> eric14@bernina.ethz.ch (Eric Baltischwiler) writes:

   On independance from the power grid...

   : >>Is it thought to be desirable to not use the electric grid?
   : 
   : You can assign a cash value to freedom from the grid. Grid power costs
   : around $.10 per kWh in many areas of the US. The array in the German
   : house provides about 40 kWh per day, or about $4 worth of electricity
   : at grid prices per day. The house cost DM 1.6 million. At current mortgage
   : rates of 8%, that's 350 DM per day for *interest alone*. Now I don't know 
   : the current exchange rate, but I'm sure that 350 DM is more than $4. And
   : you still won't ever own the home free and clear unless you attack that
   : 1.6 million principal.

   The point to remember here is that this is a research project!  As a
   deminstration it is very effective to isolate the house from the power
   grid.  If you are looking at producing "real" houses then the design
   goals would be different.  Parts of the design could be cheeply
   implemented and parts not.  Clearly the pasive heating ideas are
   usefull today.  Just as clearly going for zero outside power use is
   not cost effective if you are building in normal setting.

There are research projects and there are publicity projects.
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.