HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Unity
Date: 16 Aug 92 11:21:23 GMT
Organization: The Meltdown - A Team Star BBS

In article <BszC19.Mrq@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A.
Davis-Howe) writes:
>m23364@mwunix (James Meritt) writes:

>>Has anyone put together a synthesis of the things that work?  NOT what
>>beliefs, rituals,... the various magicks have in common but what parts that
>>do something are held in common?

>Well, this presumes that what we call magic is one entity.  I don't accept
>that premise.  I believe that there are many different magics, and that they
>have different "things that work".  See my draft of the first part of my
>essay on taxonomy for some of my basic thinking on this.

I disagree with you on this one...  A "Meta-Magic" CAN be made.  The "things
that work" (or the "magical strings" you pull, as I've used on alt.pagan) don't
change.  Merely the methods you pull on those strings.

Krikket               ! krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us ! USnail:3 Danada Square E.
a.k.a Doug Krick      ! Team Star Charter Member   !        Suite 246
Data ph# 708/665-9732 ! #include<std.disclaimers>  !        Wheaton, Il 60187
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Just another commentary on the sad state of affairs on our nation today.
From: cranmer@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: I Ching and Magick Squares
Date: 18 Aug 92 14:40:22 EDT

Hello,

Tagi@cup.portal.com (Tagi Mordred Nagashiva) writes...
 [regarding the King Wen sequence of the I Ching]

> I have found very little  
> information about the history of arrangments.  If you know of some
> references that would be of help in this regard, I'd like to see them.
> They may have some information which would inspire a solution to the
> first problem of deciphering King Wen's logic.

Maybe the best way to start is to look at the 2 different circular
arrangements of the 8 'trigrams' -- the 'old heaven' and 'new heaven'
orders (or something like that).  Maybe if the 64 hexagrams are arranged
in a circle, in the standard King Wen order, and overlayed on top of the
'old' and 'new' trigram orders, some additional 'order' may appear.

Maybe there is still more 'order' in the *nuclear* trigrams within each
hexagram -- i.e. instead of looking at its component trigrams 123,456,
try looking at the 'nuclear' trigrams 234,345.  Who knows....

The 8 trigrams are very elemental in nature, and form a wonderful 'basis
set' for the 64 'changes.'
____________________________________________________________________________
   "Hold your fire -- Keep it burning bright..."

                                  Steve Cranmer
                                  cranmer@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu
From: cigp07@vaxa.strath.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Liber XLIV - The Mass of the Phoenix
Organization: Strathclyde University VAX Cluster
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 09:16:38 GMT

In article <13421.2a92b92f@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu>, cranmer@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu writes:
> Hello,
> 
> ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes, in response to the
> posting of Liber XLIV...
> 
> By the way, to whomever is posting the rituals:  Keep'm coming!!  With
> only 2 Thelemic books on my shelf, the footnotes help!  (SELFISH HINT:
> If you want to post rituals, post ones *not* in _Magick_in_Theory_and_
> Practice_, since that is the book most Thelema-literates around here
> seem to have close at hand.  I'd like to see Libers NU and HAD, from
> 'Gems from the Equinox' with some explanatory footnotes)  Thanks!

Well, I'm the one responsible I must confess, it being something to do while
waiting for exams...8-)

The ones I've posted so far are all from Magick ( in Theory... ) since that's
what I had with me at the time. I alos, however, wouldn't be terrible upset if
someone posted Libers NU and HAD! 

( subtle hint there..... )

The explanatory footnotes were the ones printed in the copy of Magick I have
with one or two bits clarified for good measure.....

> ____________________________________________________________________________
>    "Hold your fire -- Keep it burning bright..."
> 
>                                   Steve Cranmer
>                                   cranmer@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu
-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     *            	V.
                        cigp07@vaxa.strath.ac.uk
 *	 *              acarty@cs.strath.ac.uk

   *   *		"Convictions cause convicts"

What is real??                           - Principia Discordia
From: mcmorris@vet.vet.purdue.edu (brandywine)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Benign magic spells (empathy?)
Date: 18 Aug 92 04:03:27 GMT
Organization: Purdue University SVM



	Well, yes, you have never seen my name before, but this is
something *I* can answer.  Empathy is dangerous business.  Think alot
before you start throwing empathic spells around.  As a natural
empath, it can be harmful and DANGEROUS to be able to feel another
person's feelings.
	Let me give you a hint, try something else first.  I can't
give you the spell because until empathy can be controlled and
directed, it can be hell to the person who is empathically receiving.
	However, the idea is in the right place and my heart goes out
to you. Try sypathy or directed sight... it would be easier on the
victim.

-brandywine
Xref: sparky alt.magick:3864 talk.religion.newage:3780
From: tanj@catnip.berkeley.ca.us (Ren and Stimpy's Love Child)
Newsgroups: alt.magick,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Benign magic spells (empathy?)
Date: 17 Aug 92 22:00:13 GMT
Followup-To: alt.magick
Organization: Hecate's Sandbox

Hi there.  I was wondering if anyone could recommend a good spell book which
does not so much deal with the tired chestnuts of love and money but deals
with some nifty benign social engineering... to wit...

I am looking for an empathy spell that, when cast, causes the person cast
upon (person A) to be the recipient of feelings and impressions of a person B 
whose "type" person A looks on very negatively.  The goal here is tolerance
making.  I intend to use this on myself and other people toward that goal.
I will experiment first on myself to make sure the spell is benign.

No flames, pleez... I know a lot of you out there think all this stuff is a
lot of hooey.  But then, what are you doing reading this newsgroup?  :-)

--Teddi
-------------------Another Catholic School Survivor (12 years!)----------------
From: mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu (Robert McGrath)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: herbal freedom
Date: 19 Aug 92 13:29:54 GMT
Reply-To: mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science

In article <Gerald_Del_Campo.007z@sorinc.UUCP>, Gerald_Del_Campo@sorinc.UUCP (Gerald Del Campo) writes in part:
|> 4. That truthful health information about dietary supplements is permitted.
           ^^^^^^^^
|> 5. Tha the FDA has no prior restraint authority on truthful labeling or
|> advertising.                                       ^^^^^^^^

No criticism intended, but just exactly what does "truthful" mean?  Is this
a standard legal term I'm not familiar with?  Otherwise, how is it intended
to be interpreted?

-- 
  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu
From: friday@netcom.com (Carol Anne Ogdin)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP)
Date: 21 Aug 92 05:32:46 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

Rather than re-hashing "she said/she said" I think I can summarize both
my lengthy post and Amanda's riposte as having clarified the air/aire.
We've found much to agree on and about, and it is clear we both have
different learning styles.

I hope this can, in fact, be a lesson-by-example:  I clearly used much
of what I know from NLP, and Amanda has exploited her deep knowledge
and experience in communication and we've emerged with a convergence,
of sorts.  What more can we ask of communication skills at base?

I have volunteered to propose some NLP-based experiments/exercises from
next week (I want time to think about them).  Then all of you who've
helped me expose NLP in this forum can commence discussions of how these
skills can be used in magickal/shamanic work.

-- 
---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---
    - Friday -                   "If a miracle happens in your vicinity--
      friday@well.sf.ca.us                            take credit for it!"
      (Carol Anne Ogdin)
From: stanley@verga.enet.dec.com
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Duel?
Date: 19 Aug 92 17:45:17 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


In article <UeYaJi_00Uh_M2H5Mj@andrew.cmu.edu>, knightster+@CMU.EDU (Shawn Clayton Knight) writes...
>Do NOT, oh True Believer, mess with the Logrus!  or I shall use the
>Necronomicon to raise that Most Ancient Sage of Kabbalistic Might and
>Pow'r to claim thy Immortal Soul as Food for the Lilim ... that Sage
>being Colin Low ... :) :) :)
> 
>-shawn
>No, I'm not on drugs, except endorphins.

Fear not, wise mage...  it is not the Logrus that I call upon (not wanting 
to be food for the Lilim... or the Greys for that matter)...

... rather shall I pass into the black Void... and there with The Watcher
beside me.. reach out to the fractals as they manifest from nothing into 
flocks of feathers and beaks all clawing and clucking in a magnificient 
cacophony of feathers and sound... 

... a gift of laughter from the Lords of Chaos ... 
Organization: Sophomore, English, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
From: friday@netcom.com (Carol Anne Ogdin)
Subject: Re: Unity
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 17:38:53 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

In <Bt6tJI.3u7@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:

>...rather than trying to create a dozen different groups, and
>having people crosspost for miles.  alt.pagan is different, in that it is
>focussed on religion/spirituality, rather than magic.  I occasionally mention
>magic there, but only occasionally.  And I try to avoid mentioning religion
>here.

>                               Br'anArthur

As one who raised the original issue (Significance of Crowley), I want to
second Bran's notion.  I'm not against Crowley, or discussion of Crowley;
what I challenged was the impression I was getting from certain people that
Crowley is the basis for further discussion in this group.

I now know that I'm not alone in my doubt about the Significance of Crowley,
but there are certain people who believe him to be much more important than
some others of us.  So be it.
-- 
---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---
    - Friday -                   "If a miracle happens in your vicinity--
      friday@well.sf.ca.us                            take credit for it!"
      (Carol Anne Ogdin)
-- 
---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---
    - Friday -                   "If a miracle happens in your vicinity--
      friday@well.sf.ca.us                            take credit for it!"
      (Carol Anne Ogdin)
From: cal@otter.hpl.hp.com (Colin Low)
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 11:49:21 GMT
Subject: Re: Magical Power(book)
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Bristol, UK.
Newsgroups: alt.magick

Peggy Brown writes:

>If you say its a large can of worms then why do you have such a 
>firm opinion about whether or not unknown causal events are 
>involved in "everyday" magic(k)?
>
>Its not at all clear on what your opinions are based.  No need to be 
>rational, logical or consistent here; I'm not a stickler for 
>these.  If its intuition that's OK too. 

You've lost me. From time to time I like to think things through in public
by posting to the net; I find that trying to articulate things I don't
understand very well has a kind of catalytic effect, and the subsequent
feedback and discussion almost always contains one comment which really
cuts through the muddle. I wasn't aware that I had a firm opinion - one of the
purposes in posting was to find out what my opinions were, and when things
are written down they have a tendency to look firm, but its all history now.

I don't know how to answer your question. Firstly, I'm not sure what it
means, and secondly, even if I make a guess, I haven't a clue what to say.
So much for my firm opinions. For many years I struggled to create a
unified view about how I thought about the world, and how I felt about
the world, and for that matter, the things I actually did in the world. I think
this has something to do with one's sense of identity, trying to find a
position in which things seem to make sense, where there aren't too many
inconsistencies and yawning chasms. It didn't work. I couldn't do it
without sacrificing something. You have mentioned a dancing chicken a couple
of times. I realised that even in a world where it could be categorically
stated that there was no such thing as magic, there was a part of me which
didn't mind being a chicken and would dance anyway for the sheer hell of it.
What can you do with a head like that?  I just gave up. I don't have a coherent
and unified view; the inside of my head is more like the aftermath of the
30 Year's War than the New Jerusalem. The lion has yet to lie down with the
chicken. In any case, there is a sense of identity which runs deeper than any of
the above, and giving up was less an admission of failure, and more a
recognition that there was a better way to keep the show on the road.

In the context of your question, I don't know what my firm opinions are. This
isn't a cheap rhetorical device to avoid your question.

Colin
From: joshua@CPAC.WASHINGTON.EDU (Joshua Geller)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: [amanda@intercon.com: Re: Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP)]
Date: 17 Aug 92 21:10:51 GMT
Organization: Institute for the Study of Ancient Science


amanda sent me this, and I post it with pleasure:

___
[Josh: I'd appreciate it if you could post this for me--my machine is still 
an alt.magick black hole--articles get in but not out :)]

> wait a minute, you just said that you haven't seen a book from which one 
> could learn NLP. I have heard that it is not possible to learn NLP 
> without paying bucks to a certified teacher; that in fact people 
> attempting to teach these techniques without the imprimatur of the 
> official group risk lawsuits. Could you clarify this? 

I can clarify it some: NLP is crackpot psycholinguistics with a strong does 
of perfectly standard conditioning and self-hypnosis training thrown in.  It 
is uniformly detested by everyone I've ever met with any amount of 
professional background in either linguistics or psychology.  Even the 
authors of the sources they cite think they're crackpots.

> this whole bit sounds suspiciously like the trip played by AMORC (and I 
> am sure many other groups). they claim to have 'hidden knowledge', the 
> mark (excuse me, the neophyte) pays his money for several years and is 
> eventually taught stuff that is in the public domain and in fact 
> explicated in easily available books.

Precisely.

Any benefit from NLP can be more easily gotten, with much less expense and 
foofarah, with a book on self-hypnosis or pathworking and a serious attitude 
towards study.

On the other hand, programs like NLP, AMORC, LifeSpring, est, and so on do 
serve a useful function.  I call it "The Stupidity Tax."


Amanda Walker <amanda@intercon.com>
-- 
"Who is the master who makes the grass green?"     --Zen Koan
From: oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Detailed notes on Merlin Tarot Workshop with R.J. Stewart
Date: 21 Aug 92 14:25:00 GMT
Distribution: alt
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Aug21.095725.28498@gdr.bath.ac.uk>, mascdb@gdr.bath.ac.uk (C D Burdorf) writes...
>In article <BtB7Lz.HAH@acsu.buffalo.edu> oispeggy@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Peggy Brown) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug21.000542.7490@henson.cc.wwu.edu>, n9140397@henson.cc.wwu.edu (Michael J. Hamilton) writes...
>>>In article <1992Aug19.144743.24898@gdr.bath.ac.uk> mascdb@gdr.bath.ac.uk (C D Burdorf) writes:
>>>>In article <keYNWJy00iUx05gIcP@andrew.cmu.edu> ak32+@andrew.cmu.edu (Ann Laurel Kopchik) writes:


>I put all the messages I got from you all together, put them in
>an envelope and stopped by Stewart's house and slipped it through
>his mail slot.  If I get any response from him, I will post
>it.
> 
>Chris


You know where he lives?  This is great!  Once I thought I found 
him on the @CAMELOT listserver, but it was a different RJ 
Stewart.  If only the real one could use email (he'd probably 
quit reading it).

- Peggy -
From: loki@castle.ed.ac.uk (A Kashko)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Benign magic spells (empathy?)
Date: 18 Aug 92 10:29:25 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <57104@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> mcmorris@vet.vet.purdue.edu (brandywine) writes:
>
>
>	Well, yes, you have never seen my name before, but this is
>something *I* can answer.  Empathy is dangerous business.  Think alot
>before you start throwing empathic spells around.  As a natural
>empath, it can be harmful and DANGEROUS to be able to feel another
>person's feelings.

	If it bothers you put a cut out in the spell so the level
of empathy is just short of harmful. Or leave it out but give the
person bespelled the knowledge that by perpetuating their hatred
they damage themselves. Personally the type of people I would try it on
are Nazis, KKK, and those people who regard the unemployed/disabled/poor
as sub/nonhuman.

	I would like to know such a spell too, although it would be
fun to develop it for oneself. Would it be designed to affect
individuals, groups, or attatch a copy of itself to anyone passing through a 
given public place (shoppping centre, high street, etc), or, perhaps the
nicest, to be transmitted like a virus.
From: cal@otter.hpl.hp.com (Colin Low)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Duel?
Date: 19 Aug 92 19:15:58 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Bristol, UK.


>Do NOT, oh True Believer, mess with the Logrus!  or I shall use the
>Necronomicon to raise that Most Ancient Sage of Kabbalistic Might and
>Pow'r to claim thy Immortal Soul as Food for the Lilim ... that Sage
>being Colin Low ... :) :) :)

My magical powers are limited to making the Sun rise every morning.
Traditional, not very chaotic, but a lot of job satisfaction.

Colin.
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk (Leo Smith)
Subject: Re: Magical Power(book)
Reply-To: shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1992 11:52:41 +0000

Cal@otter.hpl.hp.com (Colin Low) writes :-

[...]

>.. I don't know what my opinions are ....

Welcome to shamanism and sorcery :-):-):-):-)

!!!
From: amanda@INTERCON.COM (Amanda Walker)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Education
Date: 21 Aug 92 10:41:02 GMT

In article <1992Aug21.060636.3933@u.washington.edu>, 
rjb@milton.u.washington.edu (LeGrand Cinq-Mars) writes:
> It should be.  Unfortunately, however, it often isn't.  It's less a 
> stupidity tax than a remedial education surcharge.

I am of two minds about this.  On the one hand, I must admit that the public 
education system in this country is in a deplorable state (I have seen this 
"up close and personal", having a burned-out high school language teacher for 
a father).

On the other hand, I cannot place all the blame on the educational system, 
since it does not shoulder all of the responsibility.  Literacy is something 
that parents and communities also have responsibility for.  This ranges from 
building and funding decent public libraries to little things like reading to 
your kids instead of using the TV as an electronic pacifier.  The "education 
crisis" is, I believe, to a large extent simply a reflection of an overall 
social problem.  Literacy is more than being able to read street signs, and 
numeracy is more than knowing what bills to pull out to pay for something.  

Willful ignorance--lack of desire to learn, or an active desire *not* to 
learn (which I have encountered all too many times)--is one of the few things 
I have no patience for.  In this respect, in fact, I'll go so far as to say 
that I am an elitist.  There is no excuse for not learning (and, on the flip 
side, not teaching) at least basic spoken and written language skills.  And 
in "basic" I include the fundamentals of composition, rhetoric and debate, 
logic, delivery, and so on--the very things that are *supposed* to be in 
every high school English curriculum, much less a college education.  If I 
were a parent and my children were not getting this kind of training in 
school, I'd teach them myself (admittedly while complaining to the school 
board :)).


Peace,

Amanda Walker

P.S. This seems to be wandering fairly far afield for alt.magick...


Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: jds2@po.CWRU.Edu (John D. Specht)
Subject: Re: IS THIS REAL? (kinda)
Reply-To: jds2@po.CWRU.Edu (John D. Specht)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 23:18:33 GMT


In a previous article, wt0b+@andrew.cmu.edu (William Henry Timmins) says:

>	Well, put it this way. Let's assume that some form of 'magic' exists.
.
.
.
>abandon a myth as untrue, we forget the reason for it. Also, when we
>accept the myth unquestioningly, we also forget the reason for it.
>
>From the minds of
>-Me
>[Pooh Bear incarnate.]
><B1 c+ f+ w g+ k+ s+ r- e+ p>
>
IMHO, this should be in the FAQ, really good stuff.

Paul
-- 
jds2 	John D. Specht (Heads I win; Tails you lose.) Virtual reality is life!
ae358	Paul Bort (It ain't pretty being easy) Spring: Forces, Coiled again!
If you want to save an endangered species, hug a romantic.
Love is the triumph and pleasure and joy and light that makes life bearable.
From: cal@otter.hpl.hp.com (Colin Low)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 10:26:19 GMT
Subject: Re: Necronomicon <-- Legit?
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Bristol, UK.