From: okidz@ccs.northeastern.edu (Oki D Zakaria)
Subject: Re: Solution for East Timor?
Organization: Northeastern University, CCS Dept.
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 05:08:46 GMT

In article <LMS.92Nov5011514@rle-vlsi.mit.edu> lms@rle-vlsi.mit.edu (Luis Miguel Silveira) writes:
>
>
>   In article <1992Nov4.063702.12006@random.ccs.northeastern.edu>
>   okidz@ccs.northeastern.edu (Oki D Zakaria) writes:
>
>   Not so many.
>
>And your opinion is based on what facts ?  Indonesian government data ?  it is certainly not what most of the world press says.
>
It's a rumor-based. The last time I went back to Indonesia (last year),
people said that there were some Fretilins still roaming around the jungle.

>   I don't have the facts.
>
>Don't you think this is essential to the discussion of the problem ?
>[note that I do not claim to know all the facts either].
>
Yes, indeed. That's the main problem of our discussions. (We keep attacking
each other with harsh words without any dependable references). I wrote that
short sentence just for expressing my tiredness of talking about vague
numbers, and I'm not very fond of numbers anyway. (What's good in a
high precision statistics if each party gives its own version of 
interpretations? And later each one insists that its own interpretation is
the best?) 

I think talking about interests (and some numbers or 'facts' as the background)
would be much better. What are Portuguese's interests in discussing East Timor?
Expressing kindness to the people? Helping Indonesia to be better in handling 
demonstrations? 'Implementing' a better human rights in Indonesia? Sure, Indo-
nesia has interests too. One of them is that East Timor should be part of 
Indonesia. Starting from those interests, let's see if we can find some
resolutions.

>Shouldn't we (the rest of the world) find out for sure what these
>"facts" are (for instance by promoting free elections in East Timor)?
>
It will be interesting to see stories about East Timor in this newsgroup.
 
What is the purpose of that free elections? Choosing a president? Indonesians
do not directly vote for one. 

>
>Let us assume for a moment that the Portuguese only exploited the East
>Timorese and that they (the Maubere) are much better without the
>portuguese colonizers.
>
>I still think that that has no bearing on the issue at hand, since it
>certainly does not mean that the East Timorese are better under the
>Indonesian occupation, nor that they prefer to be in their present
>situation.  What if they do not want either of the possibilities ?
>
I don't want to say that East Timorese (or the Maubere, if you will) would
be much better without the colonization. What I mean is that any exploitation
would 'ruin' the people. In the case of East Timor, I believe that 
the present situation (which is not very satisfying for some people) cannot
be blamed to Indonesia alone (except for the killings at the demonstration).
Development needs more than just money. What about the quality of the
people? (If you were assigned to build a simulation program which intended
to be run on a Connection Machine, which one would be easier: by hiring
programmers who only know about Basic or the ones who understand
how to implement parallelism?)

It takes time to build Indonesia; a country which the people was exploited
beyond all recognitions by the Dutch. After 47 years of independence the
GDP per capita is still ~$500. Don't you think that this has nothing to do
with the exploitation? 

Maybe some East Timorese are not satisfied with what they have now. But, why?
Is that because of the slow pace of the development? If this is the case,
well, the East Timorese are also an important factor. If not, what is it?

>And still does not have any interest in East Timor!  Let us make this
>clear once and for all.  Portugal has merely trying to push for a
>peaceful solution that is acceptable by all involved parties!
>
That's good, and the next thing you have to do is to convince us that
whatever the Portuguese do, it won't lead to the separation of
East Timor with Indonesia.

>Since 1974 Portugal has no colonies any more (and no desire to have
>them; or ability to keep them, IMHO).  Our position has been one of
>trying to make sure the East Timorese have the option to decide their
>future instead of being imposed a "solution" that please Indonesia
>(and the US).
>
In the long run, I believe what Indonesia has done in East Timore (the positive
ones) would be good for the East Timorese. (Yes, there are some glitches, but
it doesn't mean that Indonesia cannot fix them.)

>
>In my opinion, colonization is always bad, no matter what or where.
>
What about Brunei and Malaysia? I believe the British worked hard
to prepare the people to get on their own feet (economically and
politically).

>   age intellectual level to create a small nice country? How would they
>   survive in such a hard environment?
>
>I am not sure i understand your point of view correctly (in fact I
>hope not).  Are you trying to say that the East Timorese have a stone
>age intellectual level and therefore should be discarded (their
>opinions I mean).
>
No, I didn't mean that. What I want to say is that the East Timor
was just decolonized, so there is a chance that their opinions would lead
to something that they could not handle; (IMHO) creating a new country 
for example. Of course, this doesn't mean the cannot do it at all, but
instead of having a feeble country, why don't just be with and
get help from the Indonesian government.

>I believe this would be a violation of the most elementary human
>rights.  Who are we to decide who's intellectual level is higher?  In
>fact what is this "intellectual level" thing?  Are we some sort of
>superior entity that can judge other civilisations by our parameters
>alone and discard their wishes and rights?
>
Please excuse me that I misled you with such a statement; I was just 
exaggerating. (Actually, we've been doing such things, right?; blow every-
thing up, so that each of us gets sick of it).
>

>Could you elaborate on your idea ?  Do you mean to say Mr. Chomsky is
>also of a minor intellelectual level and therefore incapable of what
>you perceive to be "highly intelligent discussions" (yes, I did see
>the smiley, but did not follow on the irony).
>
Exactly the opposite of what you just wrote, and I didn't mean any irony
in that smiley. I wanted to say that it must have been an objective 
discussion by talking with such a person. (I't seems that you are a very
serious person; I was teasing you, nothing negative was intended).
>
>
>That the past relates to the future should be obvious from the fact
>that Portugal is actively involved in the problem.
>
>Still that does not absolve the Indonesians from their own
>responsabilities and, from your own words, from their "recent
>mistakes".  Both countries have made mistakes.  
>
>Unfortunately the East
>Timorese have suffered in both cases.  It is time they were given some
>role in their own lives.
>
It's so sad that East Timorese had to suffer...

From the mistakes, I believe that Indonesia has a better view
how to govern in East Timor, and this also doesn't mean that East Timorese
couldn't have any role in developing East Timor for a better place to live.
(BTW, I'm looking forward to seeing East Timor in the next ~480 years :-)
>
>Best regards,
>
>-Miguel
>


Oki
okidz@dworkin.ccs.northeastern.edu
Newsgroups: alt.culture.indonesia