HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: srose@mizar.usc.edu (Steve Rose)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian boy
Date: 22 Dec 1992 16:17:37 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: mizar.usc.edu
Keywords: fairness honesty human rights


I feel compelled to address a statement by Anisa in the following letter:
(please forgive any mistakes in editing)


Article 70413 of talk.politics.mideast:
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian boy
Date: 22 Dec 92 21:39:48 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

Anisa (the lovely and talented) writes:

> There is no justification for oppression, there is no justification
> for tyranny, there is no justification for occupation, there is no
> justification for murdering little children, there is no justification
> for destroying homes, there is no justification for making settlements
> on the territories, there is no justification for expelling thousands
> of people, there is no justification for human rights violations, there
> is no justification for breaking international law, and, there is no
> justification for the kind of excuses that you are proposing.

I believe that I agree with you.  In fact, I do whatever I can do to
oppose such things.

Would you also agree, in the same spirit...

There is no justification for kidnapping a man and stabbing him to death,
there is no justification for murdering a handicapped man in a wheelchair
during the hijacking of an ocean liner, there is no justification for hijacking
of airplanes, there is no justification for hijacking of a bus filled with
school children, there is no justification for spraying beaches of vacationers
with bullets, there is no justification for planting bombs in areas where 
there are innocent civilians, there is no justification for the 
Grand Mufti of Jerusalem siding with Hitler, there is no justification for
the Arab states and the PLO rejecting up until the past few years any 
possibility of sharing the region with a Jewish state, there is no
justification for continual references to "throwing the Jews/Zionists back
into the sea", there is no justification for siding with a mass-murderer like
Saddam Hussein etc. etc. etc.?

Please, please, please, for the sake of G-d, Allah whatever you want to call
The One - for the sake of all of humanity - let us try to accept that all 
sides in this issue have a point of view - that we all have been wronged - that
we all bleed the same blood - that we are all human beings.

Peace, Shalom, Salaam,

Steve Rose
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Shamir and Wayne McGuire
From: fedimit@wisslc1.weizmann.ac.il (Dan nabuovsky)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 11:51:53 GMT
Distribution: talk
Organization: Weizmann Institute of Science, Computation Center

In article <C058zw.CIE@newsflash.concordia.ca> ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira) writes:
>In article <1992Dec31.105851.16019@wisipc.weizmann.ac.il> fedimit@wisipc.weizmann.ac.il (Dan Nabutovsky) writes:
>>
>>   I never heard Shamir or any other Likud politician making any
>>racist statement. You claim is completely impossible.
>
>of course it is impossible, it is impossible for a Jew to be racist as was
>put so eloquently by one of your colleages.

Nope, it is impossible for a racist Jew to be member of Likud.

>> The word "they" should mean terrorists, not Arabs.
>
>O.K he should have meant terrorists, after all the words "Arab" and
>"terrorist" are interchangeable, they mean the same thing.

No, words "Likud" and "racism" are interchangeable.
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24597 talk.politics.soviet:10195 soc.culture.europe:10984 soc.history:10511 soc.culture.soviet:11776 soc.culture.turkish:13756
From: bill@bcserv.wustl.edu (Eldridge (Bill))
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Jordanian Palestinians (was: israel & hamas)
Date: 29 Dec 92 02:18:54 GMT
Organization: Washington University in Saint Louis, MO USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: bcserv.wustl.edu

astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:

>Funny how Israel didn't expressly exclude Arabs from being citizens.
>-- 

Probably a political move more than a moral decision - they 
had to convince the world that the Palestinians were the 
agressors, and denying Arabs citizenship despite the 2000
previous years of residence might have strained U.S. and   
British support a little too much (though their actions prior
to 1967 was close to the same thing).
-- 
William M. Eldridge			bill@bcserv.wustl.edu
Biochemistry Department Box 8231	(314) 362-3436
Washington Univ. School of Medicine	(314) 362-7183 (fax)
660 S. Euclid, St. Louis, MO 63110
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.rights.human
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: Israeli Expulsion of 418 Palestinians
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 22:29:55 GMT

hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem) writes:

>Let me tell you something, David, I know a perfect way to protect you
>from everyone else....kill them. Does the fact that you can be made safe
>by eliminating every human from the earth justify killing them?

One of the reasons I am such a strong supporter of Israel is that they
are fighting for their lives against groups, like Hamas and the PLO,
for whom murder is a way of life <gr>, yet refuses to sink into the
mud with them.

> I cannot
>believe that you accept these deportations. These people were not even
>given a trial and yet you have already sentenced them (you state with
>conviction that you know that each and every one of these people has
>sworn to destroy Israel).

They even did it on television;  try watching some of their staged
news events from Lebanon.

-- 
Alan H. Stein   -----  AJIN   -----  astein@israel.nysernet.org
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Subject: Re: Deportee Mistaken Identity
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 23:43:25 GMT

In article <C01Mnv.6CE@ns1.nodak.edu> varvel@plains.NoDak.edu (Andrew Varvel) writes:

# In article <1992Dec29.031236.16912@nysernet.org> astein@nysernet.org 
# (Alan Stein) writes:

# >cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah) writes:
# >>The New York Times, Dec 28, 1992

# >>"The Israeli newspaper Haaretz, citing army officials, said today
# >> that 6 of the 415 deportees were victims of mistaken identity and
# >> should not have been exiled.

# >> Oded Ben-Ami, a spokesman for the Defense Ministry, said that he
# >> was not aware of any "mistakes" in the deportation process, but
# >> that the families of the deportees could raise appeals.

# >> Taher Shriteh, a Palestinian journalist who works for several news
# >> organizations, including the New York Times, was taken to the
# >> Lebanese border with the other Palestinians last week and nearly
# >> deported.  After releasing him, Israeli officials said his seizure
# >> had been a mistake."

# >Thank you for pointing out that, when Israel makes a mistake, it
# >rectifies it.  Thus we can all be sure that any of those deported in
# >error will be permitted to return when the error is realized.
 
# Hmmm.  If Israel made mistakes in identifying 6 or 10 deportees, how can we
# really be sure that any of the deportations were of the right people in
# Hamas or even Hamas supporters?

	Your (lack of) logic is amazing.  It is because we kno the rest
are that we are sure of the 6-10.  Otherwise the numer would not be
6-10, or there would not be a number at all.

	By the way, some of the 6-10 are actually guilty of other crimes
and it has been suggested that they may stay instead of returning to
Israel for a prison term which would be longer than their expulsion.

# What's worse for Israel is that the people 
# who may not have been Hamas supporters before being expelled might start 
# thinking it's a good idea.  After all, what do they have to lose?

	What would be the best idea would be for them to convince their
brothers to stop acting like animals.  Than no one would have to be
deported.
--
	There are three types of people in the world.  Those that are good
at math and those that are not.

makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU (Stewart Clamen)
Subject: Re: Jordanian Palestinians (was: israel & hamas)
Originator: clamen@BYRON.SP.CS.CMU.EDU
Reply-To: clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University
	<1hm7f4INNmvi@manuel.anu.edu.au> <Bzynt7.HHn.1@cs.cmu.edu>
	<1hmr70INNljc@tyl.anu.edu.au>
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 02:05:39 GMT

In article <1hmr70INNljc@tyl.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:

   clamen+@CS.CMU.EDU (Stewart Clamen) writes:

   >In article <1hm7f4INNmvi@manuel.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:

   >>  Both Syria and Iraq made offers to take large numbers of Palestinian
   >>  refugees under various conditions.  Jordan made them citizens.  Your
   >>  stolid determination to remain ignorant is a marvel.

   >Did Jordan grant citizenship to the Palestinian refugees or only to
   >those legally residing in the West Bank when it was annexed?

   In 1954, Jordan passed a law that defined as a Jordanian citizen

   (i) someone who was a Jordanian citizen according to either of
       two earlier laws, and
   (ii) someone who was not a Jew, was a Palestinian citizen in 1947,
       and whose normal place of residence was Jordan at the time of
       passage of this law.

   Note that Jordan in (ii) then included the WB according to Jordanian
   law.  This is from memory, so some details might be wrong.  I am
   certain that Jews were expressly excluded in part (ii); this was
   claimed to be in retaliation for Israel's Law of Return.  Note that
   the law declared that some people were Jordanians; it didn't just
   give them the opportunity.

Thank you for your reply.  I interpret it to mean that both
Palestinians residing in the West Bank (East Jerusalem, Nablus, etc.)
AND those in UN refugee camps (from the 1948 war) were granted
Jordanian citizenship.  If this were true, wouldn't the refugee
Palestinians have had full free of movement (wrt travel and residence)
within Jordan?  Wouldn't that have been the end of the refugee camps?

--
Stewart M. Clamen			Internet:    clamen@cs.cmu.edu
School of Computer Science		UUCP: 	     uunet!"clamen@cs.cmu.edu"
Carnegie Mellon University		Phone: 	     +1 412 268 2145
5000 Forbes Avenue			Fax:	     +1 412 681 5739
Pittsburgh, PA 15213-3891, USA
From: shaig@Think.COM (Shai Guday)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israeli Expulsion of 418 Palestinians
Date: 28 Dec 1992 14:54:27 GMT
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: merlin.think.com

In article <211@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP>, ohayon@jcpltyo.JCPL.CO.JP (Tsiel Ohayon) writes:
|> In article <29800@castle.ed.ac.uk> jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson) writes:
|> 
|> [JH] This statement simply has not been proved. In fact one of the expulsees
|> [JH] was simply a butcher serving meat to one of the other expulsees - he
|> [JH] was just rounded up with the rest by the soldiers.
|> 
|> The fact is some of these guys are butchers and they serve Jewish and 
|> Palestinian meat!

To put it politely: Hogwash.

Ha'aretz has already run an article quoting army sources which admit that
at least 6 of the 415 deportees are cases of mistaken identity and should
not have been deported.

The sad truth is that there is no justification for carrying out a sentence
before holding a trial.  Not in the western world or even in the judaic one.
Yet, that is exactly what has happened and at least 6 innocents are suffering
for it already.

-- 
Shai Guday		| 
OS Software Engineer	| 
Thinking Machines Corp. |
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24008 talk.politics.soviet:9958 soc.culture.greek:11838 soc.culture.europe:10766 soc.history:10362
From: bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Coming soon: THE DEATH OF MUTLU/ARGIC.
Date: 31 Dec 1992 09:13:58 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu

NEWS FLASH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hassan Mutlu a.k.a Serdar Argic has been kidnapped.

news on his wherabouts are unknown, but unconfirmed reports place
him in greece, to stand trial for among other charges:

Blatant Netiquette violations:
Rude and abusive writing:
Posting articles irrelevant to tpm:

More developments as they arise.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

COMING IN 7 DAYS IT'S THE DEATH OF MUTLU/ARGIC

WATCH FOR IT.

Brought to you by the society for the promotion of cruelty against jerks.
-- 
---  !      ^    !\  !
 !   !     /-\   ! \ !
___  !__  /   \  !  \!  
                        Avoid cliches like the plague" George Shaw
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: Jordanian Palestinians (was: israel & hamas)
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 22:30:08 GMT

aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:

>In article <1992Dec31.214451.20569@nysernet.org> astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:
>>
>>The conditions were that all the Arabs who remained in Israel in 1948
>>became Israeli citizens.

>You mean the ones who didn't flee for their lives?  The hundreds of
>thousands who were not forced out into neighboring countries and refugee
>camps in Lebanon ...

I mean the ones who listened to the Jews and remained, safely, rather
than the ones who listened to their leaders and abandoned their homes
in the expectation that they would quickly return over the dead bodies
of their Jewish neighbors.

> ... to be later massacred? 

By their fellow Arabs.
-- 
Alan H. Stein                     astein@israel.nysernet.org
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24191 talk.politics.soviet:10015 soc.culture.greek:11903 soc.culture.europe:10833 soc.history:10401 soc.culture.soviet:11600 soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:1016 soc.culture.croatia:266 soc.culture.bulgaria:2026
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.croatia,soc.culture.bulgaria
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: The Armenian genocide of the Azeri people.
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 92 17:54:11 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <11208.3248.uupcb@factory.com> michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos)  writes:

>>A few months ago, I had practically begged Mutlu to use my name in the
>>subject line, a honour reserved to his worst enemies. At that time,
>>despite my efforts he refused to do so. I was greatly dissapointed. But
>>finally my dream came true. I don't know how to thank you guys. Thanks!

> Ama den erqei apo ton Moytloy h timh ayth, den metraei!

It is so nonsensical.

Source: Channel 4 News at 19.00, Monday 2 March 1992.
2 French journalists have seen 32 corpses of men, women and children in
civilian clothes. Many of them shot dead from their heads as close as less
than 1 meter.

Source: BBC1 Morning news at 07.37, Tuesday 3 March 1992.
BBC reporter was live on line and he claimed that he saw more than 100
bodies of Azeri men, women and children as well as a baby who are shot
dead from their heads from a very short distance.

Source: BBC1 Morning news at 08:12, Tuesday 3 March 1992.
Very disturbing picture has shown that many civilian corpses who were 
picked up from mountain. Reporter said he, cameraman and Western Journalists 
have seen more than 100 corpses, who are men, women, children, massacred 
by Armenians. They have been shot dead from their heads as close as 1 
meter. Picture also has shown nearly ten bodies (mainly women and children) 
are shot dead from their heads. Azerbaijan claimed that more than 1000 
civilians massacred by Armenian forces.

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.rights.human
From: eggertj@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41)
Subject: Re: Israeli Expulsion of 418 Palestinians
Reply-To: eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu
Organization: MIT Lincoln Lab - Group 41
Date: 18 Dec 92 16:04:00

In article <1992Dec18.124600.16290@ennews.eas.asu.edu> makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:
>	   First of all, the territories are not occupied.  They were
>   liberated by Israel in 1967.

So we already know that we are listening to someone who is more
pro-Israeli than the Israeli government.  "Liberated"?  Hah hah.

>	   However, even if they are "occupied", the above is nonsense.
>   Throughout the entire evolution of the fourth Geneva convention,
>   including its official interpretations, it is clear that the Convention
>   does not prohibit all expulsions, despite the fact that the wording of
>   the convention may lead one to believe that.  As William Safire has
>   pointed out, the  convention only applies to Nazi style
>   massdeportations of innocent civillians.

What do you think happened?  Were the deportees convicted of any
crime?  No.  Thus under the presumption of innocence until proven
guilt, the Israelis just committed a mass deportation of innocent
civilians.

>	   Now, even if this was a violation of the Convention, Israel (like
>   any other state) has to worry about the security of its own people
>   before even considering whether or not their actions meet any kind of
>   international law.  That is the obligation of any government.

I wonder how many atrocities have been committed in the name of
"security"?  Certainly the Holocaust numbers among them.  The
invasion of Poland is another.

The problem here is that it is clear that Israel doesn't know what is
going on.  Mass deportations is a response out of proportion to the
crime.  Guilt by association is assumed.  So the ideas is if you round
up enough of the suspicious characters and send them all packing, no
more crimes will be committed?  Whoever has that idea is the one that
should be committed.
--
=Jim  eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish
From: isaac@etrog.se.citri.edu.au (Isaac Balbin)
Subject: Re: Israel must return the deportees!
Organization: Collaborative Information Technology Research Institute
Date: 31 Dec 92 06:32:18 GMT

>In article <533@owl.ukc.ac.uk> dat@ukc.ac.uk (D.A.Turner) writes:

>>Most of the territory of Palestine was seized in 1948.   Three  quarters
>>of  a  million  Palestinians were driven from their homes, in an "ethnic
>>cleansing" similar to what is now going on  in  Bosnia.   The  remainder
>>became  second  class citizens in a Zionist state.  This event is called
>>in Arabic "El Naqbar" - the Catastrophe.  The shock waves of that  event
>>are  still echoing around the arab world.  If you want to understand the
>>Israel/Palestine dispute, the key year is 1948, not 1967.
>>
>>David Turner
>>(A British Jew who does NOT support Israel)

Professor Turner, I assume of Miranda fame, you seem to use the word Zionist
above in a manner which is quite  different to Jewish. To me Israel is a Jewish
State first. It has a place in my understanding and education  in Judaism.
Tell us please about your understanding  of Judaism. What is Zion to a British
Computer Science Professor who does not support Israel? How does the concept
of a land for Jews fit in with your understanding of Judaism? 
What should it look like? Should it exist at all?
Do you believe that Jews should stay as a separate nation? Should they
marry non-Jewesses? What are your solutions to the problems of assimilation?
I ask all this because I was proud that you  were proud to call yourself
a Jew. I disagree vehemently with your miscarriage of history, but I'd like
to see if we have some common understanding of Judaism at least.

Thanks for your time.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Jihad is self-defence
From: fedimit@wisipc.weizmann.ac.il (Dan Nabutovsky)
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1992 15:20:24 GMT
Organization: Weizmann Institute of Science, Computation Center.

>   Jihad is self defense.

War is peace.
2*2 is sometimes 3 and sometimes 5.

Dan
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.culture.soviet,news.admin.policy
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: "news.admin.policy"s inability to create "soc.culture.x-soviet-armenia"
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 92 16:58:00 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <BzuL9s.CCy@polaris.async.vt.edu> jfurr@polaris.async.vt.edu (J. Furr) writes:

>Or perhaps someone here can help me.  Assuming I'm in my killfile and know
>how to type, how do I set things up to kill all posts authored by "Serdar
>Argic"?

Thanks so much. By the way, you make me laugh.


Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
From: gwydion@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Mercenary Programmer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Deportation vs. Murder
Date: 3 Jan 1993 20:27:42 GMT
Organization: Free Software Foundation
NNTP-Posting-Host: spiff.gnu.ai.mit.edu

In article <1993Jan3.121214.6548@rdg.dec.com> kremer@taveng.enet.dec.com (Itzhak Kremer) writes:
>   Gharaybeh, there is a book called "the Bible". Most Jews and
>   Christians have heard of it. Whether you believe in it or not, the
>   Bible is the most authoritative book on what the Jews' claim is their
>   right to the Land of Israel.

I did not realize that the Bible was intended by its authors as a
real-estate guide.  It seems to me, however, that the Bible says
that that land belongs to the children of Abraham.  That includes,
if you will note, the same Palestinians that are being expelled
from their homes.

However, I doubt that any rational person would expect Muslims to
accept the validity of the Bible's claims as to what belongs to
who.

>   What gives the Israeli Army the right and OBLIGATION to "hunt down"
>   stone-throwers is the right of the Israeli people to live in security.
>   I certainly would not like to live in a country where even 10-year
>   olds are given the freedom to stone and fire-bomb cars at will - would
>   you?????

The Jewish settlers certainly seem to want to live in such a country.
I am sure all the Palestinians who live in the Occupied Territories
also do not want the Jewish settlers to live in such a country but the
settlers seem most insistent.  Maybe you would be kind enough to
attempt to convince them otherwise?

Basalat Ali Raja.

Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:23951 talk.politics.soviet:9933 soc.culture.greek:11805 soc.culture.europe:10739 soc.history:10340 soc.culture.soviet:11459 soc.culture.bulgaria:2000