HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: wpr@atlanta.dg.com (Bill Rawlins)
Subject: Re: Is music amoral??
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 92 21:29:22 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Data General Corp. SID, Atlanta, GA

|> In article <1992Aug24.142828.24944@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> noel@crs.cl.msu.edu.UUCP (Noel Estabrook) writes:
|> >In article <1992Aug23.205509.13166@csi.uottawa.ca> cbbrowne@csi.uottawa.ca (Christopher Browne) writes:
|> >>Have you ever read the SONG of Solomon (a.k.a. Song of Songs)?  It is
|> >>not DIRECTLY worship of God, but a love song shared between a man and
|> >>a woman (most probably Soloman, and the Shulamite (?sp?) woman).  Is a
|> >>love song considered to be a wrong reason to sing?  If love songs
|> >>between puny human beings are wrong, than I guess that the Song of
|> >>Solomon doesn't belong in the Bible.
|> >
|> >In my original post (of 2 months past) stated that there were indeed 2
|> >reasons that I could find in Scripture for music - edification of believers
|> >and worship of God.  I would put Song of Solomon under the former, as it 
|> >gives believers a healthy, Godly perspective on what romance in the context
|> >of a marriage should be like.  I have no problems with believers writing
|> >love songs to each other (I quite often write love poems to my wife) - it
|> >is an edifying experience, it builds each other up.

    The most common interpretation of the SONG OF SOLOMON is that it explains
     the love between Christ and the church (and vice-versa) in the
     analogy of the love between man and wife.
    The New Testament calls the church "the bride of Christ".
     Just as many of David's Psalms are both poetic and prophetic,
     so is the Song of Solomon.
-- 
             ==========================================================
            //  Bill Rawlins            <wpr@atlanta.dg.com>        //
           //  Data General Corp       "My views are my own"       //
          //  Norcross, GA                                        //
         ==========================================================
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
From:  (The DOK)
Subject: Re: Seventy Sevens and Tonio K.
Organization: University of Tasmania, Australia.
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1992 01:17:39 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.045120.28608@javelin.sim.es.com>, JHIATT@130.187.170.178 (JOHN HIATT) writes:
> 
>   My favorite christian rock song is "All fall down".  My favorite christian

The Seventy Sevens are the best Christian Alternative band, alongside da of
course!

> musician is Tonio K.  It has been soooooooooo long since this newsgroup
> has mentioned either of these two... and for this reason I haven't been
> reading in here (too much bashing going on).
> 
>   So, THANK YOU for bringing them up!
> 
>   I'd like to know of any new info on these two (especially Tonio K.)
> 
> John R. Hiatt  JHIATT@GEMINI.SIM.ES.COM
> 
> 

 The last thing I heard about Tonio K. was that he was dropped from A&M 
and was shopping around for a new label. Others of you in the U.S. might
know some more.

  The DOK
From: rothfuss@addvax.llnl.gov
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Re: U2's denominationSKIP
Date: 4 Sep 92 20:18:49 GMT

> 	Hi, I am the original poster, and I am NOT going to the U2 concert here
> in Urbana, IL.  Not because I would be offended at what they say, but the fools
> CANCELLED their concert.  

During the U2's unforgettable fire tour tickets were sold SIX MONTHS in advance
in the San Francisco bay area.  There was NO DATE or TIME set.  You bought the
ticket and you made time for the concert when the THEY decided to have it.  The
tickets all sold out.

The last tour the tickets only went on sell at selected locations.  Those
locations were not revealed until the tickets actual went on sell so that
people would not camp out DAYS in advance to get tickets.  All the tickets sold
out and scalpers were getting as much as $600 on resale.

I guess there's quite a difference between Urbana and SF :-)

jimr
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
From: pearsodc@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (D)
Subject: Re: looking for one good album
Organization: Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 00:57:18 GMT


John R Laplante writes

> I've heard some names around here, but I'm looking for some
> nominations -- of ONE album to spend my tickets on.
> 
> Categories: Pop / Rock / Metal/ Alternative / Rap / Country
> 
> Please nominate an album from each category, or at least one
> album and specify the category.

Pop - Bryan Duncan, _Anonymous_Confessions_of_a_Lunatic_Friend_.
Rock - White Heart, _Tales_Of_Wonder_.
Metal - Magdallan, _Big_Bang_.
Alternative - _Chagall_Guevara_.
Rap - D-Boy, _Plantin'_a_Seed_.
Country - Lost Dogs, _Scenic_Routes_.
	(Hey, if that's not a country album, I don't know what is.)

clueless chuck
PearsoDC@NeXTWork.Rose-Hulman.Edu
From: snorthc@nswc.navy.mil (Stephen Northcutt)
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Re: Which music amoral??
Date: 3 Sep 92 14:06:32 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: NAVAL SURFACE WARFARE CENTER

Thomas Price writes:
>Look, you idiot.
It is true that I am not as smart as many folk that I know, but I am
*NOT* an idiot.

>Ice-T is not writing about killing cops because he calculates
>that such lyrics will sell more albums.

And you *KNOW* this for an absolute fact?  I posed it as a question.

>I put to you that you are obliged to do this thing, to imagine that Ice-T
>acts in good faith. You have no knowledge to the contrary, and, since
>you are commanded to love him as yourself -- you idiot -- you therefore
>must, as part of that love, assume that he is acting in good faith unless
>you have strong evidence to the contrary. You have no such evidence. Your 
>accusations that Ice-T is completely money-hungry and lacking in integrity 
>are unsupported and unChristian. Please learn something about the social 
>conditions he is attempting to represent.

BZZZZZTTT, wrong, thank you for playing, please take a rest.

1.) You have clearly missed the original post, I am talking about
a whole genre of IMMORAL music, no ifs and or buts.  I am under no
compunction whatsoever to imagine ANYONE, who advocates senseless violence
is acting in Good Faith should you be referring to faith in God thorough
our Lord Jesus Christ.  1 James bears this out well enough.

2.) Sure I have evidence, I have heard this "song".

3.)  OK, teach me about these social conditions that make violence
a thing I should support.

>I believe you will find that the world is a very serious place. And what
>is your response to this seriousness, in which armed officers of the 
>state are percieved by segments of the population to be their enemies?

The world is indeed a serious place, herein we determine our eternal fate.

>Your religiosity is useless. So are you.

None of Gods children are useless!

I get the impression that you are young, passionate, and idealistic,
this is normal and acceptable.  Nonetheless do not let this cause you
to sin.  
===================================================================
 Oh Andrew..... Andrew....  one of your friends is at the door :-) 
===================================================================
From: stanm@comm.mot.com (Stan Macasieb)
Subject: Re: MWS Change Your World (NOW FOR SALE)
Reply-To: stanm@comm.mot.com
Organization: Motorola
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 19:57:52 GMT

In article 714939005@Isis.MsState.Edu, cee1@ra.msstate.edu (Charles Evans) writes:
>Well, I picked up the CD this morning. Actually it was at our Xian Bookstore
>yesterday afternoon (Wednesday)..but they didn't unpack it.
>

Is "Change Your World" only available at places like Family Bookstore right now,
then available later at your local Musicland, or is it at those big chain 
music stores now?

I like what I'm reading in the reviews, and I enjoyed his last release which 
I bought at your typical music store. I'm just not crazy about buying CDs 
at $15.99 if I can help it, but the chance to be the first on the block 
w/ MWS's latest is an incentive.



******************************************************************************
--Stan Macasieb (stanm@comm.mot.com)              |  "God so loved the world
--Motorola, Land Mobile Products Sector           |   that he gave his only
--Schaumburg, IL (just another suburb of Chicago) |   Son" -- John 3:16
--------------------------------------------------|
~~The opinion expressed in this post is not       |  "You got a problem
~~necessarily those of this corporation.          |   with that?" 
~~Copyright 1992, all rights reserved.            |   -- Roger Clemens
******************************************************************************
From: pmfranc@afterlife.ncsc.mil. (Paul M. Franceus)
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Re: Sam Phillips
Date: 2 Sep 92 15:13:24 GMT
Organization: The Great Beyond

> Unfortunately, the CD liner (as is the case in a regrettable number of
> instances) came without lyrics.  Does anybody have them?  If so, could
> you puh-leeeeze post them or mail them to me?  I would be ever so grateful.

I would be intersted in the lyrics as well, especially to "remorse"  I have
been trying to figure them out for 3 years!

Remorse
..
She covered him with (*I have no idea*) like a snake about to strike
and then pronounced him hopeless when he wouldn't do as she would like.
..
And he's so sorry he can feel remorse
tries to keep a (*what*) ship on course.
(*I don have anyy idea*) 
taking it by force
and he's so sorry..
.

---------
Does anyone know?
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
From: walton@odie.ee.wits.ac.za (Michael Walton)
Subject: Rick Cua?
Organization: Wits Electrical Engineering (Novell Users).
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 06:58:13 GMT

Hi!

Rick Cua is performing in South Africa next month.  What's his music like, 
or any other info?  All I know about him is that he plays/played bass for 
Phil Keaggy.  Any comments would be appreciated.

In Christ's love

Mike
From: crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu (Lauren L. Crawford)
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Accountability in CCM
Date: 28 Aug 92 14:14:52 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <mjenkins.715002506@cunews> mjenkins@alfred.carleton.ca (Michael Jenkinson) writes:
>
>Count on my support. I've been planning a similar letter. I think way
>too many "Christian" artists are doing ccm for the wrong reasons. It
>was really bad timing that the Mike Warnke thing and Sandi Patti came
>down in the same week. Made the entire industry look bad.
>
>I would also ask them what guidelines they have in place to ensure
>accountability, and what disciplinary action there is when these are
>violated. 
>
>Ask 'em what they're planning on doing with Sandi Patti's stuff if
>here divorce goes through. Are they going to give her their full
>backing, or will they cancel her recording contract?
>


This brings up a very interesting issue.  It's probably come up before in
this group, but not since I've been reading it.  

Should Christian musicians be held accountable by their recording companies
in addition to their churches?  What guidelines should said companies use,
if so?  If a musician gets a divorce, for example, is that grounds for 
canceling a recording contract?  What about an affair?  Driving under the
influence?  Lying?  Gossiping?  In other words, which sins would be
deemed acceptable, and which wouldn't?  

 



-- 
Lauren Crawford  //  crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu

Verbosity leads to unclear, inarticulate things.
            -- J. Danforth Quayle
From: ajw@cbnews.cb.att.com (andrew.j.whitman)
Subject: Re: Which music amoral??
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 20:38:43 GMT

I wrote (in reference to Ice T's "Cop Killer"):

>>But I'm curious why you would view this song as particularly offensive.  
>>Ice T isn't the first and he won't be the last musician to advocate violence. 

In article <1992Aug25.184718.4115@relay.nswc.navy.mil> snorthc@nswc.navy.mil (Stephen Northcutt) writes:
>
>Well gee pardner, I said I hadn't been in a record store in a long
>time, but let me see:
>  Killing people is a bad thing (very low murderer rate in
>  heavenly census if you get my drift) and I will admit to feeling
>  that advocating killing Policemen is *bad*.

Yup, murder is bad.  Of course, the point applies to both sides -
black or white, those who wear a badge and those who don't.  That's
the point Ice T is making in the song:  you harrass me, hound me,
throw me in jail for no reason, and you better watch out, 'cause
the next time you try it I'm going to kill you.  

I didn't say that I agreed with the philosophy.  In fact, I thought
I stated pretty clearly that I *didn't* agree with it.  But I think
Ice T has the right to make the statement, and I think that other
people have the right to hear it and to make up their own minds
about it without having the song pulled from the album because
some people are offended by it.  

People think and say a *lot* of things I think are bad.  So what?
I'm sure that as a Christian I think and say a lot of things that 
non-Christians are offended by too.  The same rights that allow
me to express what I believe also allow Ice T to express what he
thinks and believes.  You take away his rights and you take away
mine too. I think Time Warner ought to be ashamed for their
cowardly reaction.  And I think Americans ought to be pretty
frightened at the direction this country is turning with regard
to individual rights and freedom of speech.  

>If I understand you right you are pushing grace and mercy much further
>than I would want to.

I'm pushing what I perceive to be freedom, and I'm bemoaning the
loss thereof.

Andy Whitman
AT&T Bell Laboratories, Columbus, Ohio
att!cblpn!ajw  or
ajw@cblpn.att.com
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
From: hill@spot.Colorado.EDU (Michael Hill)
Subject: Re: Is music amoral??
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 20:12:11 GMT

In article <1992Sep2.163642.1379@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> noel@crs.cl.msu.edu.UUCP (Noel Estabrook) writes:
[Discussion of "Dream On" cover by Greg X. Volz deleted]
>I would probably have a hard time with this.  If nothing else, it could be
>evil in the sense that it could cause some to stumble (i.e. ME).  With my
>history of drug addiction, etc, this song brings back some very unpleasant
>memories, and as such would not edify me in the least, in fact, it could
>cause some harm...

I am sorry to hear that.  However, that is merely a product of YOUR experience
being brought into the act of listening to the music; it is not at all inherent
in the music itself.  How can it possibly be argued that any aspect of music
(or art or whatever) that can affect different believers in different ways
be considered an intrinsic aspect of that music??  If it had the same effect on
every person who listened to it, then maybe...

			--Michael

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Hill   <><  Isaiah 9:6 | "Don't be afraid, He has risen/ He's not here,
hill@spot.Colorado.EDU         |  why are you trembling with fear/ Just as He
Ball Aerospace Systems Group & |  told you, just as He said/ They could not
University of Colorado@Boulder |  stop Him, He is not dead!  He's the Messiah"
$ mv net.flames /dev/null      |                     --Bloodgood, "The Messiah"
-------------------------My boss is a Jewish carpenter!------------------------
Did you ever notice that everybody in favor of abortion has already been born?!
From: gritter@cs.purdue.EDU (Carl R. Gritter)
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Michael Card on tour with Phil Keaggy???
Date: 2 Sep 92 01:50:15 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, Purdue University

Among those playing instruments on Michael Card's newest album "The
Word" are Phil Keaggy (accoustic guitar) and Dan Huff (electric
guitar).

In the thankyou section Michael Card writes this:
"To Danny and Scott and all who go out on tour, for making the great
sacrifice of leaving home and family, thanks also to Phil Keaggy for
you willingness to `condescend to men of low estate' and come out with
us this fall."

If what he meant is that they will tour together it would definitely
be something to see.  If not, its a good way to start a rumor %^).

Carl
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
From: dmaxwell@auc.trw.com (Doug Maxwell)
Subject: Re: U2's denomination
Reply-To: dmaxwell@dora.UUCP (Doug Maxwell)
Organization: TRW Denver Operations
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 01:13:42 GMT

>Well, we're supposed to be able to take in poison and not be corrupted
>by it.  (Slight paraphrase)
>
>Dale Schouten@uiuc.edu

We are also supposed to flee evil.  My point is this, should we be 
deliberately putting ourselves into positions that compromise our values
simply for our entertainment?

-- 
|Douglas J. Maxwell dmaxwell@dora.auc.trw.com  |   *                         |
|TRW Denver Operations                         | *****                       |
|16201 Centretech Pky / Aurora, CO  80011      |   *                         |
|Voice:  303.360.4013  FAX:  303.360.4133      |   *  Doing my best for Him. |
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
From: jlaplant@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (John R Laplante)
Subject: Re: Sandy Patti sings the National Anthem tonight at the RNC (8/20)
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1992 02:03:18 GMT

In article <1992Aug24.011223.23734@newsroom.utas.edu.au> (The DOK) writes:
>In article <1992Aug20.135134.7194@Arco.COM>, cgp@Arco.COM (Chris Phillips  (214) 754-6419) writes:
>> 
>> You'll almost certainly have to watch C-SPAN or CNN though.
>> 
>> Chris
>> 
>> 
>
>  Great, that helps all Aussies!  On second thoughts, do I want to see Sandi?
>  The DOK


  Well, DOK, your problem could have been prevented if Chris had limited
  the distribution to USA. No flames intended. But it illustrates how
  a judicious use of the distribution can save others on the net some time.

  Do _I_ want to see Sandi?  Since I ways already watching the convention,
  sure, why not?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
john r la plante                    calling from the Ohio State University
jlaplant@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu  political analysis done while you wait
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
From: noel@crs.cl.msu.edu (Noel Estabrook)
Subject: Re: Is music amoral??
Reply-To: noel@crs.cl.msu.edu.UUCP (Noel Estabrook)
Organization: Michigan State University
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 92 11:43:50 GMT

In article <1992Sep3.150549.19150@news.cs.brandeis.edu> aaron@binah.cc.brandeis.edu writes:
>In article <1992Sep2.163642.1379@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu>, noel@crs.cl.msu.edu (Noel Estabrook) writes:
>>I would probably have a hard time with this.  If nothing else, it could be
>>evil in the sense that it could cause some to stumble (i.e. ME).  With my
>>history of drug addiction, etc, this song brings back some very unpleasant
>>memories, and as such would not edify me in the least, in fact, it could
>>cause some harm...
>
>Obviously, then, it would be bad for you.  But does that make it bad for me?
>Or, bad in general?  Not all music is for everyone and certainly some music
>would cause problems, such as you describe.  But, the fact that certain bands
>and/or songs would be bad for some does not make it bad for all.  The verse I
>have refered to several times says that if you think something evil, then to
>you it is.  The key is that to you (and I'm sure many others), secular rock
>would be evil because of the associations with your past.  However, to many
>others (like myself), the music has no such connotations and is simply good
>sounding, interesting music.  I would not listen to such music around you
>out of respect and brotherly love but there would be nothing wrong with 
>listening to it in other situations.  

But that wasn't the question - the question was whether it was bad for
Greg Volz to perform it.  If that song will cause brothers or sisters to
stumble, then their obligation is not to perform it.  Again, we're dealing
with an issue of rights vs. what is right.  Sure, they have every right
to perform it, but should they?  A song that has the connotations that 
Dream On has for many, I don't think it's appropriate.

Noel Estabrook          |       Let us not merely do that which is our
noel@crs.cl.msu.edu   __|__	RIGHT, rather, let us desire to do that
Educational Technology  |	which IS right - Me
Michigan State Univ.    |				Romans 12:2
--
Noel Estabrook          |       Let us not merely do that which is our
noel@crs.cl.msu.edu   __|__	RIGHT, rather, let us desire to do that
Educational Technology  |	which IS right - Me
Michigan State Univ.    |				Romans 12:2
From: crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu (Lauren L. Crawford)
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Re: TANGENT: Christianity and art
Date: 1 Sep 92 21:26:29 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <1992Sep1.200954.16453@cbnews.cb.att.com> ajw@cbnews.cb.att.com (andrew.j.whitman) writes:
>
>But I also think we have to be careful in defining our terms.  I
>sometimes get the impression that Francis Schaeffer turned off his
>critical abilities when he considered any art, music, or literature
>produced after 1900.  For Schaeffer, "order" meant linearity and
>adherence to chronology in literature, adherence to strict 
>counterpoint and harmonies in music, and photographic representations
>in the visual arts.  Given that, it's not surprising that his 
>artistic heros are Shakespeare, Bach, and Rembrandt.  
>
To the extent that he did that, I'd say he was advocating western
thought and art above all other forms.  And I'd have to disagree with
him.  I love eastern music, for example, and very much appreciate

About Faulkner's "The Sound and the Fury" -- I agree.  It's a work
of art.  It's not linear.  Are you saying Schaeffer would say it's
not art?
>
>Well, okay.  I certainly agree with those ideas.  But I don't think
>you'd find many artists who would claim the creation of gibberish
>as one of their central aims.  

Fortunately not as many today as 20 or 30 years ago.  There were
plenty then.

You'd probably find quite a few, 
>though, who would claim to be representing a particular ideology.  
(stuff deleted ... good stuff, too)
>Others were Thou-Shalt-Do-Lots-Of-Drugs-And-Be-Sexually-Liberated 
>Hedonists. Some were even Christians.  But the common denominator is 
>that the art was subsumed by the message.  That's always bad news for
>art, as far as I'm concerned, and the twentieth century has witnessed
>a proliferation of earnest, fanatical hacks.  God save us all from
>Artists with a Cause.
>
I agree and disagree.  I think there is good art out there that has
a message and a cause.  I also think it's real rare.
I also agree that all the musical genres you cite are fine for Christians
to use.  I don't think there are evil musical genres.
>
>Thanks for your comments, Lauren.

Ditto!  

-- 
Lauren Crawford  //  crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu

I believe we are on the irreversible trend toward more freedom and
democracy -- but that could change.   -- J. Danforth Quayle  
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
From: sdeering@athena.mit.edu (Scott E Deering)
Subject: Christian Video Shows (was: Phil Collins- talking to Jesus)
Followup-To: rec.music.christian
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 14:34:35 GMT


|>            In general, I agree that christian tv is too smarmy and 
|> syrupy. My blood sugar count goes up every time I see the antique
|> Ken & Barbie set (Paul and Jan Crouch) on TV. Yet I have also seen
|> some worthwhile stuff -- interesting discussions -- about science and
|> religion. I've seen interviews with Malachi Martin and I certainly am 
|> willing to listen to John Ankerberg -- mostly because he is willing to 
|> let others who believe differently challenge his position. 
|>           
|>            True, though. Most Christian TV is garbage. And I am sick
|> and tired of their political statements. If they want to talk about
|> Christianity, talk about Christianity and leave the politics alone! 
|> 
|> -reykjavik
|> 
|> rks@uccs-annex.csn.org

As anyone seen some of the new Christian video shows out like;

a. Edge TV
b. ZTV
c. CCM TV

???

Could someone who has cable give a quickie review of these programs and
their relative worth? Thanks!

-scott deering							<><
sdeering@athena.mit.edu