HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jaapjl@tab00.larc.nasa.gov (J Lee Jaap)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: DAVE HAYES MAY BE RIGHT!
Date: 18 Dec 92 19:21:23 GMT
	<1992Dec9.150444.12962@bcrka451.bnr.ca>
	<1992Dec11.024825.11159@blaze.cs.jhu.edu>
	<JAAPJL.92Dec11151118@cmb00.larc.nasa.gov>
	<1992Dec12.005130.7722@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>
Reply-To: J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@larc.nasa.gov>
Organization: AS&M Inc
NNTP-Posting-Host: cmb00.larc.nasa.gov
In-reply-to: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov's message of Sat, 12 Dec 1992 00:51:30 GMT

In article <1992Dec12.005130.7722@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:
   jaapjl@tab00.larc.nasa.gov (J Lee Jaap) writes:
   >Read the RFD and CFV that are posted to your group.  Read the post that
   >has third-grade English in its Subject that says the group is going
   >to be renamed.  If you can't be bothered, don't bother me.

   You mean...
   Subject: CFV: rec.music.makers.* reorg

   Where does it say in that subject that "rec.music.synth" is to be renamed?

I should have saved it.  I was referring to the post by some other
wise soul that referred to the RFD without any technical jargon and
(near as I remember) did refer to r.m.s or "this group".

Personally, I think that this could be a suggestion but not a
requirement that posts with group-specific subjects could contain
pointers to the RFD or CFV.  Also a suggestion that RFDs and CFVs
contain (near the top) a request for others to post again to
groups that they care strongly about.

But I still do not consider a failure to do the above to be sufficient
reason to invalidate a vote, unless of course they get included as
requirements instead of suggestions.
--
J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@LaRC.NASA.Gov> +1 804/864-2148
    employed by, not speaking for, AS&M Inc, at
         NASA LaRC, Hampton VA 23681-0001
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.config,alt.folklore.computers
From: tjc50@juts.ccc.amdahl.com (Terry Carroll)
Newsgroups: news.groups,misc.legal
Subject: Re: Court Rulings Hierarchy
Date: 11 Dec 92 23:40:05 GMT
Reply-To: tjc50@juts.ccc.amdahl.com (Terry Carroll)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation

In article <1992Dec11.163132.9799@u.washington.edu>, 
tzs@carson.u.washington.edu (Tim Smith) writes:
> n particular, when something new comes up that has not been dealt with
> be a give court, and has not been dealt with by a higher court, a court
> will look to see what courts in other jurisdictions have done.  This
> includes courts in other common law countries--Amercian courts will
> cite English and Canadian and Astralian courts, and those courts will
> cite American courts.

This is most definitely true.  I recently searched the UKLAW file on Lexis 
looking for instances of laws being struck down under the British unwritten 
constitution, and was surprised at the number of citations to US courts.

Terry Carroll - tjc50@juts.ccc.amdahl.com - 408/992-2152
The opinions presented above are not necessarily those of a sound mind.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: StarOwl@uiuc.edu (StarOwl)
Subject: Re: soc.culture.native
Followups-To: news.groups
Reply-To: StarOwl@uiuc.edu
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: Actuarial Science Program at UIUC
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 02:35:54 GMT

gst@spdcc.com (Gary S. Trujillo) writes:

>Can anyone help me understand why this new newsgroup has to restrict itself
>to American Indians (a name most aboriginal people of the continental U.S.
>seem to accept) and the Native peoples of other regions of the Americas?

Well...if it's named soc.culture.{native|indigenous}, I don't think
it has to be confined to topics relating to the culture of the original
peoples of the Americas.

I would question the logic behind creating a group named 
soc.culture.aboriginal for the purpose of discussing the cultures of
indigenous peoples around the world.  I'm concerned that a few too
many people may misunderstand the groups intent, and believe that
the group is for discussions of the culture of the indigenous people
of Australia.

--
Michael Adams				| Science without religion is lame;
Actuarial Science Program @ UIUC	| religion without science is blind.
StarOwl@uiuc.edu (NeXTmail OK)		| 		-- Thomas Edison
an692@anon.penet.fi (anonymously)	| NBCS: B1f+t-w+g+k++s+me+h-qv	     
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.misc
From: kherron@ms.uky.edu (Kenneth Herron)
Subject: Re: comp.soc.folklore unmoderation forgery - he's at it again...
Distribution: na
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 01:55:19 GMT
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences

stoodt@cis.umassd.edu (Michael Stoodt) writes:

>I am assuming that the article below is another Palmer-ism (or an
>incredible simulation thereof), since the Path goes through
>"destroyer", prominant in the path of the other unmoderation attempt...

>] Path: umassd.edu!nic.umass.edu!noc.near.net!uunet!psinntp!uunet!destroyer!heifetz!widener!hela!iti.org!news

More likely you fell for a bit of misdirection the forger threw in.
The presence of two "uunet"s implies the second one (and everything to
the right of it) is a fake.  The article was probably injected at
psinntp or uunet.
-- 
Kenneth Herron                                              kherron@ms.uky.edu
University of Kentucky                                         +1 606 257 2975
Dept. of Mathematics     "Your ball goes over them, it sails off the edge into
a huge cauldren of fire-breathing dragons."  "And they call this a par three?"
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: yenamand@micro.cs.umn.edu (Murthy Yenamandra)
Subject: Re: STRAW VOTE ON NAME FOR NATIVE AMERICANS NEWSGROUP
Organization: :noitazinagrO
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 20:49:39 GMT

emcguire@intellection.com (Ed McGuire) writes:

>   I'd suggest the following as possible names, with people of course
>   being free to suggest others:
>   soc.culture.native
>   soc.culture.native.american (recognizing that there is no soc.culture.native
>				group for this to hang under at present)
>   soc.culture.amerind
>   soc.culture.native-america
>   soc.culture.indigenous
>   soc.culture.???

I think soc.culture.native-america is unworkable, as people have already
pointed out, in view of subsequent newsgroups in a single hierarchy.
Otherwise, you would be stuck with soc.culture.native-australia etc.

The same arguments apply against soc.culture.amerind also. Plus there is
the argument that we're not talking about Indians. I'd prefer something
along the lines of soc.culture.native or soc.culture.indigenous.

>"Aboriginal" clearly distinguishes between the original occupants of
>the land and other (largely European) "natives" who came later.  It is
>apparently in frequent use in Canadian media in preference to
>"Indian."

To me, "aboriginal" always seemed to be tinged with contempt.

Just another data point.

Murthy

--
Murthy Yenamandra	|    "I close my eyes and all the world drops dead;
Dept of Comp Science 	|     I lift my lids and all is born again.
Univ of Minnesota	|     (I think I made you up inside my head.)"
yenamand@cs.umn.edu OR murthy@molbio.cbs.umn.edu (if the first one fails)
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: nadeau@bnr.ca (Rheal Nadeau)
Subject: Re: DAVE HAYES MAY BE RIGHT!
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 19:02:54 GMT

In article <1992Dec10.225305.12014@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>
>That's a typical "we can't fix it so we won't work on it or take it into
>account" type of attitude. Theres lots one can do. Stay tuned. 

Once again, the person who's been complaining that the r.m.s.  vote
wasn't open enough hints at secret work to redesign Usenet .  .  .
Gotta love that consistency!

>Fine. (It _was_ a joke.)

You make lots of jokes, Dave - some of them aren't intentional . . .
(See, I can make jokes too!  I bet you're rolling on the floor now!)

>Because that's the number of people who can get, read, and understand
>the voting practices and procedures material that is currently posted.

Dave, you seem to have a very low opinion of the intelligence of the
average Usenet reader.  I believe the average user was quite capable of
understanding the CFV posted to r.m.s.  and acting on it, if he bothered
to (his choice).  So who's elitist now?

Frankly, I find your attitude highly condescencing - or am I to feel
proud to have overcome those unsurmountable obstacles preventing users
from finding out about votes?  Gee, I really MUST be part of an elite,
if I'm smart enough to learn these things!

So why was I (an average user) able to find out these things, where the
readers of r.m.s.  are unable too?  Are the readers of r.m.s.  really so
stupid?  Are "your" users really unable to read and understand documents
that users of other groups have no problems with?

If I was an r.m.s. reader, I would be quite offended at your suggestion
that anyone who didn't vote did so because he was unable to understand
a clearly-worded CFV . . .

       The Rhealist - nadeau@bnr.ca - Speaking only for myself
Xref: sparky news.groups:24236 alt.native:1397
From: gst@spdcc.com (Gary S. Trujillo)
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.native
Subject: Re: soc.culture.native
Date: 14 Dec 92 04:41:49 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1992Dec14.044149.12335
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting

In article <cdj2jml@rpi.edu> speights@iear.arts.rpi.edu (Arlen Speights) writes:
> I'm in favor of creating soc.culture.native, with a few reservations...

>...
>    Another consideration is the nature of postings on alt.native, which
>    quite often are either informational postings or discussion-oriented
>    postings.  The NativeNet mailing list seems to have dealt with this
>    situation very nicely by the creation of nn.general and nn.chat.  This
>    might be a worthwhile idea for soc.culture.native, as it seems to be
>    a compatible match for linking the UseNet group(s) to the mailing list
>    which generates a good part of the alt.native traffic.

If we can create two separate Usenet newsgroups, as Arlen suggests earlier
in his article, say "soc.culture.native" and "soc.culture.native.d," they
could be linked, respectively, with NATIVE-L (nn.general, etc.) and NATCHAT
(nn.chat).  This potential for linkage is another good reason for creating
a newsgroup which is open to discussion of subjects pertaining to aboriginal
peoples of all parts of the world, since both NATIVE-L and NATCHAT (which
are LISTSERV-based mailing lists) are international in character.  If an
exclusively "American" newsgroup (say "soc.culture.native.american") were
later to be created, a new NativeNet mailing list could be created to link
with it.

I would like to bring subscribers of those mailing lists into this dis-
cussion, since I think their perspective could be useful.  It seems to me
we cannot fairly or adequately resolve the naming issue without a careful
consideration of newsgroup content.

Gary
-- 
    Gary S. Trujillo                             gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us
Somerville, Massachusetts               {wjh12,bu.edu,spdcc,ima,cdp}!gnosys!gst
Xref: sparky news.groups:24600 alt.native:1470
From: gst@spdcc.com (Gary S. Trujillo)
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.native
Subject: Re: soc.culture.native
Date: 17 Dec 92 21:34:17 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1992Dec17.213417.27840
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting

In article <1992Dec17.170050.9261@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>
	hades@Dartmouth.Edu writes:

> StarOwl@uiuc.edu (StarOwl) writes:
> 
> >Let's try to get one group up and running, then check and see how the
> >posts are distributed along general topic lines, before we start splitting
> >into subgroups, please.
> 
>     Or before we even think about gatewaying the group to a mailing
> list, or set of mailing lists.

Well, we can think about it or not think about it, as you choose.  That
fact doesn't stop it from happening, since that decision is not really under
the sole control of the Usenet community.  The people in the mailing list
community can and will have a voice in the decision, so we might as well
prepare for that possibility, which is a very good one.

> And if we do split into subgroups, lets
> make sure to not use the *.d suffix. It has fallen out of use in UseNet
> over the last few years, thankfully. That is what .misc and .info are
> for, these days.

OK.  I'm all for following currently accepted practice, and have no problem
using those names, as long as it's clear that ".misc" is for discussion.

Gary
-- 
    Gary S. Trujillo                             gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us
Somerville, Massachusetts               {wjh12,bu.edu,spdcc,ima,cdp}!gnosys!gst
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Give up, Dave, you've lost!
Date: 19 Dec 1992 01:05:42 GMT
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

In article <1992Dec18.223856.18411@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
>>I guess I'll have to stay confused, then; most folks don't bother with
>>unimportant things.
>No, they only bother with important things. (That's a hint)

So far, you're repeating yourself, just with different words. If most folks
only bother with important things, and this isn't important, then why are you
bothering? (Aside, possibly, from a (rather perverse, IMHO) desire to prove
you're not "most folks".)

>>...?? You mean you don't object to being labeled irrational??
>I can't possibly object to being labeled anything. I can complain
>about it, but it's your decision to label me. 

I'm using "object" in the loose sense that includes "complain about". So, are
you complaining?

>As for being irrational, there's times when that's useful to be. 

Uhm. This sentence stands on its own, and there is no comment I can make to
it. You've truly said it all.
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by stupidity.
 "Brought to you by the letters O, S, and by the number 2." -- Mike Levis
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Give up, Dave, you've lost!
Date: 14 Dec 1992 15:46:40 GMT
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

In article <1992Dec14.140507.9158@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>I don't think that the gateway was dropped because of me, first of all.

...never mind the messages from the list complaining about the suddenly
increased level of flamage, and the fact that you kept redirecting the flames
back into it...

>Secondly, this is a real oppressive tactic to use...you are in effect 
>saying that complaining may serve to do more damage than the negative action
>which prompted it in the first place...which implies (intention or no) 
>that you should never complain about anything.

No; it implies that you should be careful about where, how, and how much to
complain. Swatting a housefly with a Buick may kill the fly, but it's hard on
the Buick, too. It's possible that complaining may well have worse effects
than the action that prompted the complaint. Ever hear the phrase "the cure is
worse than the disease"?

>That's a real dangerous and oppresive attitude to promote.

...if that is indeed what is being promoted. I don't think it is.

>My intention was not to drive people away. Even if that did occur, I am 
>not going to continue to acknowledge posts that imply such...because they
>_are_ supporting an oppresive position.

Only because you made it so. It is not my intention to oppress anyone; it is
my intention to get you to see that you're hurting people in the name of
helping them - kinda like the old "fucking for virginity".
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by stupidity.
  "All [Windows] NT has is a lot of journalists fooled." -- Brian Button
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RESULT: comp.society.folklore unmoderation fails 729: 151
From: peter@ferranti.com (peter da silva)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 16:50:28 GMT
Organization: Xenix Support, FICC

In article <8175@lib.tmc.edu> jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
> Where I disagree with the hysterics of the alt.diehards is that over a quarter
> of the net should have to go through those gyrations to read what, by all
> accounts, is a very good group.

Two problems:

	1. Many believe that this change wouldn't help. That the people
	   hurt would change, but that the actual propogation would
	   probably not increase much.
	2. Many believe that the nature of the group would change, and
	   want to *keep* it a good group.

If the vote had simply been to unmoderate comp.society.folklore it would
almost certainly have passed, *and* if after a while these two problems
were resolved by the success of comp.society.folklore then it would have
been a mere formality to close down alt.folklore.computers.

This was suggested, repeatedly, to no avail. THAT is why the hysteria, and
why the gloating. And why the 25% are still out there in the cold.
-- 
Peter da Silva                                            `-_-'
Ferranti International Controls Corporation                'U` 
Sugar Land, TX  77487-5012 USA
+1 713 274 5180                            "Zure otsoa besarkatu al duzu gaur?"
From: zombie@EBay.Sun.COM (zombie)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: eunet?
Date: 18 Dec 92 20:50:25 GMT
Reply-To: zombie@EBay.Sun.COM
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: redeye.ebay.sun.com

What are the eunet.* groups for?

---
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
<>      May the saddest days of your future be no worse than        <>
<>      the happiest days of your past.  Merry Christmas!           <>
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
<>			zombie@redeye.ebay.sun.com  		    <>
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.native
From: StarOwl@uiuc.edu (StarOwl)
Subject: Re: soc.culture.native
Followups-To: news.groups
Reply-To: StarOwl@uiuc.edu
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: Actuarial Science Program at UIUC
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 05:10:18 GMT

StarOwl@uiuc.edu (StarOwl) writes:

>I would question the logic behind creating a group named 
>soc.culture.aboriginal for the purpose of discussing the cultures of
>indigenous peoples around the world.  I'm concerned that a few too
>many people may misunderstand the groups intent, and believe that
>the group is for discussions of the culture of the indigenous people
>of Australia.

Erm.... let me try that last sentence again, for those of you out there
in net.land who might care about my omission:

I'm concerned that a few too many people may misunderstand the group's
[soc.culture.aboriginal, hold the american] intent, and believe that
the group is *exclusively* for discussions of the culture of the 
indigenous people of Australia.

--
Michael Adams				| Science without religion is lame;
Actuarial Science Program @ UIUC	| religion without science is blind.
StarOwl@uiuc.edu (NeXTmail OK)		| 		-- Thomas Edison
an692@anon.penet.fi (anonymously)	| NBCS: B1f+t-w+g+k++s+me+h-qv	     
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: DAVE HAYES MAY BE RIGHT!
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 01:34:56 GMT

jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
>>(That's like the cat promising to eat the tuna.) You will get your chance,
>>don't worry. 
>When? 

Real Soon Now. ;-)

>>>>How about posting the articles more frequently?
>>>How frequently?
>>Once every three days.
>Hm. How did you arrive at that number? 

Gut feeling. 

>My gut feeling is that it's too often,

Well hold that thought. 

>postings are pointers to a longer article explaining what's happening. Dave
>Lawrence might get heartburn over that, though, since you're multiplying his
>work by a factor of seven or so...

Not to n.a.n...but to the affected newsgroups only. 

>>Hey, I'm working on improving things. Getting the topic back to this
>>vote, I really think users weren't kissed first. I'm sorry you disagree. 
>Your response to a rape (your analogy, not mine) is to unzip your pants?

My response (to extend the analogy to this case) was to scream for help.
It's the people in the apartments above who call the cops on ME that are
inappropriate.

>>(This tack again) I'm opposed to blind adherence to any external set of
>>standards of conduct. That's why I want a revote. 
>...such as laws, then? If you truly believe that, and have the moral courage
>to follow that principle to the penitentiary, then I admire you for it.

Great. Now what?

>Nevertheless, that does not mean the rest of the net will go along with you.

As much as I'd like that...I don't expect them to.

>You must convince the admins of the net that the vote was unfair and invalid
>in order to justify a revote. 

That's a purely subejctive process, isn't it? 

>Not even when the article has no acronyms at all in it?

Not unless it's posted several times in a manner in which you cannot help but
be aware that something is going on.
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

   There is no greater calamity for a nation or individual
                 than not finding contentment in one's sufficiency.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: phardie@nastar.uucp (Pete Hardie)
Subject: Re: PROPOSAL:  Yes votes >= 200+2*No Votes
Organization: Digital Transmission Systems, Duluth, GA.
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 17:21:29 GMT

In article <1992Dec10.174347.17435@midway.uchicago.edu> greg@dent.uchicago.edu (Greg Kuperberg) writes:
>I OBSERVE that currently a newsgroup will be created if yes votes
>should exceed no votes by 100 and that yes votes should exceed twice
>no votes in response to the call for votes, and

If memeory serves, the 100-vote limit was intended to be the cutoff point at
which it was more resource-efficient to run a newsgroup than a mailing list,
given the size of the net and that if several accounts on one machine get the
mailing list, there are that many copies of the text taking up space, while
only one copy of new articles.

Now, with the growth of the net, is this number still applicable?  Should
it be modulo the number of machines on the net (however that might be 
determined), or a fixed number?  And if we do change the number, perhaps we
should codify the reasons and process for later use.


-- 
Pete Hardie:  phardie@nastar  (voice) (404) 497-0101
Digital Transmission Systems, Inc., Duluth GA
Member, DTS Dart Team           |  cat * | egrep -v "signature virus|infection" 
Position:  Goalie               |
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.config,alt.folklore.computers
From: slb22@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Seth "the Lesser")
Subject: Re: RESULT: comp.society.folklore unmoderation fails 729:151
Followup-To: alt.config
Organization: Generic American College Kids (G.A.C.K.)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 04:37:18 GMT
Summary: #include <grain-o-salt.h>
Reply-To: slb22@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Seth "the Lesser")
X-Posted-From: cunixb.cc.columbia.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

gothick@dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Gothick) writes:
>
>msb@sq.sq.com (Mark Brader) writes:
>>
>>(c) 3 people who each voted once or twice each way, with no clear
>>    statement that the later vote was intended as a correction:
>>		
>>      Drucker     mertwig!xyzzy@uunet.UU.NET (Daniel Drucker)
>
>*snigger*  Mr. Wizard strikes again....

I'd like to propose a newsgroup dedicated to the net.person with the highest
ever ratio of obnoxiousness to calendar age:

alt.flame.hairy-douchebag.dannie-drucker.

Followups to alt.config; flames to daniel@mertwig.UUCP .


Seth L. Blumberg          \ Warning: This posting has been determined to cause
slb22@columbia.edu (play)   \ cancer in laboratory animals.  Please make sure
sethb@ctr.columbia.edu (work) \ that no white mice are allowed to read it.  
    > No one I know shares my opinions, least of all Columbia University. <
Newsgroups: news.groups