HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 13:12:00 CST
From:         "Jim Thomas (tk0jut1@niu.bitnet)"
 <TK0JUT1%NIU.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu>
Subject:      Re: Christian bashing

    >You know my answer on that one.:-)  But, for all of me, Caesar
    >can nail the idiots first, if he can get his hands on them.  It's
    >a big if.

I'm certain that RuthH does not intentionally intend to provoke, and
that she honestly believes her comment should be taken as humorous.
Unfortunately, she remains grossly insensitive to the issues at stake.
They are about repression, not about religion. Religion enters in only
to the extent that it is used as the justification for repression. In
none of Ruth's comments has there been even an inkling of
understanding of why some of us find her commentary objectionable. She
views some on this list as "murders," an abomination, and "evil." She
is part of a group that actively attempts to legislate the behaviors
and life-styles of some on this list, to repress them, to deny them
basic Constitutional rights, to change them, to mold them into an
image more consistent with her own. She makes personal swipes and then
cries "foul" when, feeling the sting, others respond.

RuthH's right to religious freedom ends when her religious views
penetrate into the political realm in attempts to legislate what I do
in the privacy of my own home.  When this occurs, it is not her
beliefs that are at stake but the political implications of one person
forcing those beliefs on another. She doesn't have to like gays,
abortion chosers, or adulterers, but when she--and other
Fundamentalists--become abusive, she will be held accountable by the
targets of that abuse.

I was raised as an Episcopal, attended Baptist church in highschool,
and my own view of Christianity at that time was quite similar to
Gilbert's: Believe as you wish, but respect the rights of others.
RuthH's continued claim that to oppose the bigotry of Fundamentalists
is akin to Christian bashing is nearly as offensive as her views of
some social groups.

    >
    >>so excuse me if I paraphrase) "thou shalt not lie with a man as with
    >>a woman, for it is an abomination".  Doesn't that just mean no vaginal
    >
    >Try no same-sex copulation.  Men don't have vaginas.:-)

RuthH seems to have little knowledge of gay sexual practices.  Even
so, what about lesbians, Ruth?

It should be pointed out that for some, the Bible was also interpreted
to bar interracial marriages and justify segregation at least into the
late 1960s.

For those who think that some of us are over-reacting: Some of us
have a low threshhold for beliefs and groups that would deny others
basic human rights. In some twist of convoluted logic, this makes
*us* the intolerant ones.

Jim (I can do without RuthH's kind of love) Thomas
From: ap290@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ruth M. Hanschka)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Subject: Re: Apology to Ruth
Date: 10 Nov 1992 22:18:08 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: ap290@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ruth M. Hanschka)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, jthomas@netsys.com (Jim Thomas) says:

>
>Ruth, conflict is not necessarily bad, even when unpleasant. Often,
>new understandings can arise. My objection to your commentary was that
>is was terribly demeaning and insulting, from oudda da bloo. You may
>feel that you were unfairly attacked, but you finally--I'm sure 
>unintentionally and without malice--pushed one button too many.

Definitely without malice, and most certainly without intent.  If I'm ever
deliberately insulting anyone, you'll know it.  Believe me.:-)  If you think
that's what it was, imagine what it felt like on this end to get blasted from
"oudda da bloo" for explaining a group's rationale [and it's not even a group
I would identify with].  You and Graham managed bewteen you to hit most of
the buttons I've got.:-(  

>My point, beneath the stridency, was that some groups and *personal*
>choices are condemned and must be confronted daily. You may not be the
>"bad guy," but--perhaps without so-intending--your words and rationale were
>among the most common reasons raised for judging, denying basic human
>dignity and basic rights. I, for one, had/have no intention of trying to
>change your beliefs. On the other hand, I am not willing to passively
>allow what I perceive to be insults to pass, especially when they
>feed stereotypes and reinforce reasons for denying some groups the
>rights others take for granted. You see the difficulty of fighting for

Exactly - that was my reaction too.  We were both reacting the same way - and
started a mortar barrage.  

>a few days. Some are confronted with these conflicts everyday of
>their lives. I see this as a political, not a religious issue. You
>obviously don't agree with my own view that people have the right to
>engage in their private lives without external interference, which

Actually, you're wrong about that.  We all have opinions about what is and
isn't "correct" behavior.  When asked, isn't it OK to state them?  Or would
you rather I'd lied?  I have people butting into my private life all the time -
I listen to them, and then do whatever feels right.  If I'm the one butting
in, telling me to shut up works perfectly well.  Yelling sets off an argument.

>is fine. But when public judgments about my private life are made,
>you can bet there will be a response. 
Yep - same here.  And that's exactly what happened on all [3? 4?] sides.

>
-- 
		###	Ruth Hanschka, the Nethead    ###
			- ap290@cleveland.freenet.edu
	      Where anything can happen, and it usually does
From: ap290@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ruth M. Hanschka)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Subject: Re: UUCP Mail
Date: 8 Nov 1992 06:08:11 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: ap290@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ruth M. Hanschka)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, ktw@MHWPA.ATT.COM () says:

>>Count your blessings, Natalie - at least it isn't throwing headless
>>chickens, egg trays de fridge, or peanuts at us!
>
>
>By the time I'm through with AT&T over this one, it will be....
>
Throwing peanuts at Words-l?  This I *have* to see!  Who'll be doing
the honors?  

-- 
		###	Ruth Hanschka, the Nethead    ###
			- ap290@cleveland.freenet.edu
	      Where anything can happen, and it usually does
From: ST402747@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (blomberg cepeda)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Subject: Re: The Democrats and Me
Date: 12 Nov 92 15:46:25 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Comments: To: words-l@uga.cc.uga.edu

>In catching up on back mail -- not done yet -- this discussion of
>11/23/63 and recent elections -- I had the following thought/question:
>
>What happens if Clinton dies before his inauguration?  Is Gore inaugurated
>as President?  Is there a constitutional provision for such?
>
>Joan (jboor@cs.umb.edu)

If he dies before the electoral college meets, the electors are free to cast
votes for whomever they want. If it is AFTER the electoral college meets, then
Gore becomes president (though he may have to be sworn in as VP first, I have
no command of the niceties).

                            b.c.

p.s. Does anyone know anything about recessive accents? I mean, I actually post
a word-related question of WORDS, and it's ignored; one ironic comment on
complex East European languages and it's a tidal wive, but a question about
English (egawds!) and it's ... nothing.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 08:11:52 -0500
From:         "(Agnes Kruchio)" <kruchio@EPAS.UTORONTO.CA>
Subject:      Re: The Gleanings?
Comments: To: WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu
              "BGRISSOM@UKCC.UKY.EDU" at Nov 9, 92 7:05 am

>
> Where are Akio's Gleanings (67)?  Maybe his part of the highway
> is closed too?
>
> brad
>

I got mine.
Agnes
From: ap290@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ruth M. Hanschka)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Subject: Re: Mechanics of Response Style (was Re: amendment 2)
Date: 8 Nov 1992 05:33:41 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: ap290@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ruth M. Hanschka)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, jthomas@netsys.com (Jim Thomas) says:

>In article <1dha2tINNct8@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> ap290@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ruth M. Hanschka) writes:
>
>>Nice try Graham, but you've had your free spanking for the day.  The next
>>one's going to cost you.  Insult my religious beliefs and my ability to
>>reason on my own, and you get a response.  The above drivel isn't worthy
>>of so much as an unsmiley.
>>
>Gosh, Ruth. You're going to start charging for handing out such favors?
>Isn't there a name for women who do that? 
>
Yeah - wives.  Just ask any husband.:-)  You didn't ask what I'd charge,
either.  Why?  Don't think you could afford it?  You're probably right.
You're too cheap to even take a real shot at me.<evil grin>

>When you defend a group that practices bigotry, you insult a number of
>us. When you are a proud advocate of that group, you can bet that you,
>too, will get a response. If you are limited in your criticisms of other
>groups to sectarian cant, that strikes me as at least minimal evidence
>that you can't reason on your own. Comparing "gays" to a "sickness"
>such as alcoholism, as you did in a previous post, hardly strikes me
>as evidence of reason. Do you *really* believe gays are "sick?"
>
What a maroon.<sigh>  Just look at all the lovely buzz-words.  All the
liberal left jargon.  Can't you think of a few new things to say for
yourself?  Can't you reason on your own?  Sauce for the goose, dearie.
Lose the jargon, and the bias against people who actually believe in something
higher than themselves, and we'll talk.  In the meanwhile - scat.  I have
better things to do with my time than argue with a closed mind.

Oh yes, and that crack about the illustration I used?  It's unworthy of
you, if you really can think.  It's not a 100% exact comparison, although
there are some who would say that it is.  Go ask a geneticist and a
one of the experts out at Moody Bible Institute.  Listen to what they have
to say, then form a judgement.  


-- 
		###	Ruth Hanschka, the Nethead    ###
			- ap290@cleveland.freenet.edu
	      Where anything can happen, and it usually does
From: DBFABAK%CFRVM.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu (Don Moore (813) 974-4078 S/C 574-4078)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Subject: Few More FTP Comments.
Date: 9 Nov 92 12:45:30 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Prolog:     University Computing Services/Student Data Systems
X-Prolog:     University of South Florida
Comments:     Converted from OfficeVision to RFC822 by PUMP V2.2X

Ruth must have asbestos outfit ...no JM she!
(that's sort of a compliment, few would understand)

ggs...excellent!!  I am somewhat surprised at how close our thinking is..
except I wouldn't have used that last line :-)

Also, maybe you would understand why I disappointed family, and <did not>
become a priest.

Akio, good morning (or noon now) and glad to see for yet another month I
have not confused you on anything (confused not right word, but you get
the idea ...no need to glean)

Peace, children

                            Peace,
                                  Don
From: jboor@MOTE.CS.UMB.EDU (Joan Boorstein)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Subject: Re: The Democrats and Me
Date: 12 Nov 92 15:12:20 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Comments: To: WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu

Frank says:

>> William Clinton, assuming he
>> makes it to his Inauguration, will be the third youngest President,
>> and the second youngest man elected to the office.

In catching up on back mail -- not done yet -- this discussion of
11/23/63 and recent elections -- I had the following thought/question:

What happens if Clinton dies before his inauguration?  Is Gore inaugurated
as President?  Is there a constitutional provision for such?

Joan (jboor@cs.umb.edu)
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 00:41:02 GMT
From:         Graham Toal <gtoal@RACHEL.IBMPCUG.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: From The Times of India
Comments: To: WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu

:Already remembered one. A fairly pretentious book review started by
:saying that Indian writers writing in English were "multiplying rapidly".

:A paragraph later they were accused of being sterile.

Perfectly consistent, if they were writing their tables.  Hmmm... no, those
would be Arabic, not English.

G
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Date:         Sat, 7 Nov 1992 14:14:46 EST
From:         ll23%nemomus@ACADEMIC.NEMOSTATE.EDU
Subject:      Re: Fun for all
Comments: To: words-l@uga.cc.uga.edu

Posted on 7 Nov 1992 at 13:30:39 by Frank Peters
>thing off to Ouagadougou, UV but it would have to be several thousands

What's UV?  I thought Ouagadougou is the capitol (that doesn't look right)
of Burkina Faso (or Fasso in the old spelling).

Karen
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Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Date:         Thu, 12 Nov 1992 19:10:49 -0600
From:         Anne Burton Harwell <harwell@TENET.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Wayward Pulpit
Comments: To: English Language Discussion Group <WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>

On Thu, 12 Nov 1992, Frank wrote:

> Frank, the formerly fuzzy

Ooof! <Now> you tell me!

-abh
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Date:         Sat, 7 Nov 1992 15:34:00 EST
From:         xxuucp@ATT.ATT.COM
Subject:      UUCP Mail
Comments: To: WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu

UUCP request att!D.attea6586d to mhwpa!D.attea6586d
failed on system 'mhwpa'.
Reason for failure:
	remote system can't create temp file
	remote file system is low on free space
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Date:         Fri, 13 Nov 1992 18:12:35 GMT
From:         Graham Toal <gtoal@RACHEL.IBMPCUG.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: Cut it out/ question
Comments: To: WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu

> And a zeugma to you too.

What a funny yolk!

G
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 04:08:32 GMT
From:         Graham Toal <gtoal@RACHEL.IBMPCUG.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: legislating behavior (was amendment 2 ...)
Comments: To: WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu

Graham bravely puts his balls on the block, and gives <straight> answers,
unlike some in this group:

:Would you include in the "dangerous" class restrictions on smoking,
:use of intoxicants or narcotics, or automobiles?  Alternatively,

It's perfectly within my code of ethics to legislate against smoking
in public, since several medical studies have now shown (and their
results have been accepted by european courts) that secondary smoking
*is* dangerous to its victims.  I wouldn't legislate against forms
of drug abuse that only harm the abuser however, nor would I legislate
against smoking in private.

:would you grant "protected" status to people who do any of these?
:(for example or 2, is refusal to rent to a smoker a denial of civil

Yes.  But someone renting an apartment would have the right to insist that
n-one smoked in that apartment, since it's their property and they have the
right to protect it against damage in the form of a permanent pallor of
smoke which stays behind in smokers' rooms.

:rights?  Is refusal to hire someone who does not own a car a denial of
:civil rights?)

I would say so, unless the job required a car and traditionally one was
not supplied by the employer (such as a taxi franchise for instance)


Analogies are never perfect, but I can't see the point of yours at all?

Can we have some counter arguments that are closer to the real-life
discrimination we're talking about, such as sacking teachers for
explaining in sex education classes that 16-yr old children who wonder
if they are gay are _not_ sick and evil, and if that's the choice they
end up making, they'll be supported rather than ostracized.  Such as
sacking ministers of the clergy because they admit to homosexual feelings
even though they are celebate.

G
From: PRIMATE@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (Judith E. Schrier)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Subject: Re: Back to Nov 5
Date: 7 Nov 92 03:55:07 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Comments: To: words-l@uga.cc.uga.edu

>Now that I got everyone thinking about Nov 22/23, could Mama Judith
>pleeeaaasseee tell us what happened on Nov 5?  Did someone memorable
>join Words-L?  She didn't say what year.
>
>
>Still curious....
>
>Theresa

Several people responded...Nov 5 is Guy Fawkes Day, "celebrating"
the failed plot to bomb Parliament in...what year? Steve Carlson
even posted the rest of the poem...

Do you remember the fifth of November?
Gunpowder, treason, and plot!
I see no reason why gunpowder treason
Should ever be forgot.

I learned it as a nursery rhyme!

love, judith
From: TRAVEN@VMS.CIS.PITT.EDU (Blue eyes cryin' in the rain)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Subject: Re: Presidents' ages
Date: 12 Nov 92 14:47:00 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Envelope-to: WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.EDU
X-VMS-To: IN%"WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.EDU"
Comments: To: WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.EDU

>It occurs to me that the question of who is the youngest president
>has more than one answer. Washington, VanBuren, Tyler, Polk, Pierce,
>Grant, and T. Roosevelt were each, at the time of their innauguration,
>the youngest to have become president. Yes, I know this is the smartass
>answer.                                                        ^^^^^^^^
>^^^^^^                                                      Br Paul

	As such, it's the <archetypal> WORDS-L answer.

	Sorta like the one asking who was the first President born in the
	United States -- answer (I think) is Van Buren.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
neal    traven@pittvms                  Bitnet          412-624-0097 (office)
        traven@vms.cis.pitt.edu         Internet        412-624-0110 (fax)
                    "You're only young once, but you can be immature forever."
                                          -- Larry Andersen, relief pitcher
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Organization: Current Science Tel: +44 71 323 0323 Fax: +44 71 580 1938
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 21:12:08 GMT
From:         Graham Toal <gtoal@CURSCI.CO.UK>
Subject:      Re: Establishment (was legislating)
Comments: To: Words-L and the Bandwidth Hogs <words-l@uga.cc.uga.edu>

On Tue, 10 Nov 1992 22:49:00 CST, "Stephen H. Karlson 753-6980 (815)"
 <TA0SHK1@NIU.BITNET> wrote:
> >>Ask Ruth what the policy would be in her church, and whether its
> >>established.
> > Is this another flame-bait question Graham, or are you serious.
> Give it a rest, Ruth.  I used the term "established" in a very precise

Steve, I think you picked up on the wrong part of the question.

G
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 01:47:25 GMT
From:         Graham Toal <gtoal@RACHEL.IBMPCUG.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: The Gospel Truth
Comments: To: WORDS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu

Carolyn, we men just *know* these things ;-)

You too are in good company.  Talking of witch, were is Susan lately? Mom?

G "Evil I live"
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Return-Path: <tushar@math.uchicago.edu>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 11:25:30 CST
From:         tushar@MATH.UCHICAGO.EDU
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Response to vexing cluelessness by Natalie

>>      He turned his smouldering gaze on me, fingers grazing the
>>      straining bulge in his Dockers.  "Fuck you," he said.
>
>Which of the interpretations does this lead to?  Is it the opposite of the
>one reached by "Gently brushing his lips across my eyelashes, his right hand
>stroking my shoulder as he left hand grazed the straining bulge in his
>Dockers, he quietly murmured 'fuck you.'"

The correct interpretation is the reaction one has to every porn and romance
hack : "fuck you".

tushar
From: TA0SHK1%NIU.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu (Stephen H. Karlson 753-6980 (815))
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Subject: Re: Adventures in Democracy
Date: 6 Nov 92 02:10:00 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

: Democratic scum, the incumbent, Harold Volkmer.  His Republican opponent
: is a professor (I think economics, Steve!) at Mizzou, and of course we
: know that he only works 6 hours/week!

What is the Republican's name?  Maybe I've got some dirt on him.
Missouri's economics department is notoriously bad.  They went into
civil disorder and the dean had to appoint a receiver, in effect, as
chairman, a few years ago.  Students that flunk out of Northern
have little trouble getting into Missouri.  Maybe your state got the
less bad scum.

Steve Karlson
From: rashmi%Spl3.ECE.Drexel.EDU@COE.DREXEL.EDU ((Rashmi))
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Subject: Re: Lakehurst
Date: 5 Nov 92 23:02:33 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Comments: To: words-l@uga.cc.uga.edu

Steve asks:
>: Tuesday's my day at the Naval Base in Lakehurst, and it was a regular work
>: day there, also.
>Drexel extension campus at Lakehurst?  Something else?

A little bit of both, actually.  I'm working on a project there in addition to
teaching (the DSP sequence).

>Do you work in the zeppelin hangar, or pass the spot where *Hindenburg*
 crashed?
The class meets *in* the hangar where the Hindenburg was housed, about a mile
or so from the spot where the zeppelin crashed.  The hangar is enormous, and a
small part of it has been converted into seminar rooms.

rashmi
From: jthomas@netsys.com (Jim Thomas)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Subject: Re: Clinton's "Mandate"
Date: 6 Nov 92 20:36:29 GMT
Organization: Netsys Inc.

In article <1992Nov5.082358.24297@netcom.com> karsten@netcom.com (karsten) writes:
>jthomas@netsys.com (Jim Thomas) writes:
>> The special interest groups that Bush accused Clinton of pandering to
>> were merely the vast majority of people who feel dildoed by the repubs. 
>                                                   ^^^^^^^
>
>So the general populace doesn't recognize a good time when it feels one?

Heh! A touching sentiment with a flourishing key stroke, but not everybody
shares such penetrating views. Especially when non-consensual.

Jim (taking himself in hand) Thomas
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.words-l
Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 16:27:00 CST
From:         "Stephen H. Karlson 753-6980 (815)"
 <TA0SHK1%NIU.BITNET@uga.cc.uga.edu>
Subject:      On the whole, I'd rather be in

(Philadelphia)

: One of the most beautiful cities in the world. It has declined because of 12
: years of Reagan and Bush. The did not care about the cities.

To my knowledge, the Strategic Air Command did not drop an incendiary bomb
on a terrorist nest in West Philly, the Philly cops did.  We'll get a
better class of cities when cities are run by responsible people.

: Trains don't tend to run through (rich) areas. The rich don't like
: to live near all that noise.

The "Main Line" of rich suburbs west of Philly got its name from its
proximity to the Main Line of Public Works, later the Main Line of
The Pennsylvania Railroad <genuflect>.  Furthermore, the rich pay
more to live away from noise.  Another way of looking at it is,
poor folks pay less for housing near railroad tracks than they would
pay if there were no railroads making noise.

Steve Karlson
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