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Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 13:18:01 PDT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Rick Adams <adamsr@NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Psych-iatry vs -ology?
              at Sep 5, 92 12:34 pm

==>      Eric claims that theoretical knowledge and clinical experience in
==> seemingly unrelated areas (such as derm, OB/GYN, etc) are unnecessary for
==> psychologists who want to prescribe only for mental illnesses.  So, should
==> future MDs that KNOW they want to be, for example, dermatologists also be
==> excused from all those unrelated and irrelevant courses?

	Sure - _provided_ they want only a limited license which does NOT
authorize them to  practice medicine - the equivalent of permitting a
psychologist to prescribe psychoactive medications.

	The type of prescriptive limitations which would certainly be placed
on a clinical psychologist would not permit them to prescribe such
substances as antibiotics, steroids, or skin  preparations, only
psychoactives. Nor would such training prepare a clinician to legally
deliver a baby, order an upper GI, or perform surgery ALL of which a
dermatologist may LEGALLY do.

	I highly doubt that any medical student in their right mind would
give up those kinds of privileges in order to cut a year from their program.
Yet, unless psychologists are to be granted those privileges (which they are
NOT) it's rather absurd to require them to be trained to perform those
functions.


==>  This desire for prescription rights and responsibilities without the
==> bulk of a broad medical education would set a dangerous precedent, and would
==> accellerate the trend toward the formation of super-specialized medical
==> technicians, abandoning all together the notion of the body as a whole, as
 an
==> interactive collection of systems whose balance affect and depend on one
==> another.  Soon, the clinical right hand would not know what the left one was
==> doing.

	The precedent would certainly not be any more dangerous than the one
which already exists that permits physicians to practice psychology (i.e.,
to treat patients for emotional or mental "disorders") without requiring
that THEY obtain a comprehensive education in psychology. To argue that a GP
may be trusted to address problems of a behavioral nature, but a
neuropsychologist cannot be trusted to manage a client on Librium is absurd.

	I would be perfectly willing to see psychologists permanently barred
from receiving prescription writing authority - provided MDs were required
to abstain from the treatment of emotional or behavioral disorders. The
alternative is to assume the medical model is the only valid one, and if
that is the case then we are ALL wasting our time by studying psychology
rather than medicine.


--
    rick.adams on GEnie   /|\  Reliable and affordable public access to
     adamsr@netcom.com  /  |  \  telecommunications services is the
    adamsr@irie.ais.org \ /|\ /  first step toward a global community.
   adamsr@norwich.bitnet  \|/  Send Email for files on GEnie and Netcom.
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Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1992 16:56:42 -0400
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         GORDONSE@UNCG.BITNET
Subject:      good lists for psychology graduate students to know about

I am compiling a list of computer lists that would be useful for
psychology graduate students.  I welcome all suggestions and
a phrase that describes the list.  I need the complete email
address.

Sharon Gordon
gordonse@uncg.bitnet
gordonse@iris.uncg.edu
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Date:         Sun, 13 Sep 1992 15:45:04 EDT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Paul Lowry <PLOWRY@NERVM.BITNET>
Subject:      3 issues on personality/Genetics

To Rich Adlin:   Your instructor takes an extreme position in the nature -
nature controversy.  I like to think of myself as a moderate allowing for con-
tributions from both genetics and environment.  One book that I found very help
full, though representing the opposite extreme was:
            Lewontin, R.C., Rose, S.P.R., & Kamin, L.J (1984).  Not in our
                genes.  New York: Pantheon.
The authors are geneticists, anthropologists, and psychologists arguing that
genetics play a very minor part.
                                  pL
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Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1992 14:01:14 EDT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Pie 'oh' pah <KLUR@MARISTB.BITNET>
Subject:      Not a regular list member; just a person seeking info

I hate to intrude, but I think this list may be able to help answer
my questions.  I am not a member of this list.  I am a senior at
Marist College, who will graduate in May with a B.A. in English
Writing and a minor in Psych.  I have already taken Intro and Abnorm
Psych., and will be taking two more psych courses to fulfill my
minor next semester.  I am giving serious thought to applying to
grad school for Psychology.  Any information anyone could send me
would be much appreciated.  Things like:  What is it like?  What
courses would I have to take on the undergrad level before doing
a post-grad?  Can a non-Psych major succeedin grad-level Psych?

My real name is Lara Wieczezynski.  My mail address is KLUR@MARISTB.
Anything you could tell me would be great.  (Please don't bother
posting to your list, as I am not a regular list member.)

Thanks very much for your time!



Lara Wieczezynski
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Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 18:46:13 EDT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Tim Tumlin <UFTRT@NERVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Psych-iatry vs -ology?

David,
   Yes, I see your point.  But that answers this question:
   If we could only have psychiatrists or clinical psychologists, which
profession would be easier to cross-train so as to wipe out the other?

   Now, I prefer to worry about these two questions:
1. Is it worth it for clinical psychologists to seek prescription
privileges?
   a. Legal liability goes up (insurance).
   b. Ethical liability goes up (you're still dabbling in drugs with the
      human body and you'd better know a lot about it).
   c. It'll take about an extra year of grad school, plus continuing ed.
   d. Research works just fine by bringing in an MD just like any other
      specialist.
   e. Many clinicians have relatively low need for prescribing drugs. I've
      been doing a lot of therapy for three years at a major medical complex
      and I've asked for two consults for medication -- the second was this
      week.
   f. The medical community will fight this all the way.

2. What are the ramifications of allowing clinical psychologists to qualify
to prescribe drugs?
   a. Where do you stop? Counseling psychologists often feel they have the
same "turf" as clinical psychologists, for the most part. Should they be
allowed to write prescriptions?  School psychologists? Counselor Education
Edd's?  There are social workers who believe they should be doing therapy
instead of us here, would you let them too? California has a master's-level
certification called the MFCC; many of them are quite good in delivering
mental health care so should they be in on this?  Don't forget the legions
of graduates of professional psychology schools, APA accredited and otherwise.
You can get a doctoral-level clinical license in California if you have ANY
social science Ph.D., pass the tests and do your supervised hours. So they
could be writing prescriptions after a year of classes?
   b. In a related issue, what about the general overmedication of patients
already? Ritalin is already dispensed too much; anxiolytics are doled out
like candy, almost the same for antidepressants. I know that you and I and
Mr. Zorilla will be highly deliberative and careful, but what about the
above-mentioned professionals?  There are many excellent professionals, but
I've seen a lot of therapists of all certification levels and orientations
to whom I wouldn't send my dog; it's pretty scary to add them to the list
of people who can hand out medication.

   I'm sure I'd feel better about all this if people like Zorilla were the
only ones getting this kind of privilege, but this could be a big door to
open and I'm not sure this is the answer to Prescription Envy.
Tim
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.psycgrad
Date:         Mon, 7 Sep 1992 20:33:42 EDT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Joe Iovanisci <iovanisc@PILOT.NJIN.NET>
Subject:      Request Your Help

	I am posting this request on several lists, so please excuse any
redundancy.

	My name is Joe Iovanisci and I am a junior at Stockton State College in New
 Jersey.  I, along with other students, am doing a research project on
Internet/Bitnet and its resources.  The purpose of my research is to identify
the resources available on, or through, Internet that a professor of Psychology
might find useful or interesting.

	I am visiting several lists that seem to be related to psychology to
see if they are appropriate to include in the final resource manual that will
be assembled.

	I am requesting help with my research from the members of this list.
What Internet/Bitnet resources do you think would be of interest to a psych-
ology professor just starting with electronic communication?

	Thank you in advance for your help and I will be very happy to make
my final resource guide available to anyone that would care to receive it.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^  Joe Iovanisci                      iovanisc@pilot.njin.net      ^^
^^  Stockton State College             (609)-965-0835               ^^
^^  Pomona, New Jersey  08240                                       ^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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Original_To:  PGLIST
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.psycgrad
Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 08:54:00 CST
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Betty Harris <B1H6017@TAMVENUS.BITNET>
Subject:      Power

Here's the information that I have on the power program. :)

Boronstein, M. & Cohen, J. (1988).  Statistical Power
  Analysis:  A Computer Program, Lawrence Erlbaum
  Assoc, Inc.

Lawrence Erlbaum Assoc, Inc.
365 Broadway, Hillsdale, NJ 07642
phone 201-666-4110

Betty
b1h6017@TAMVENUS
b1h6017@VENUS.TAMU.EDU
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Date:         Mon, 7 Sep 1992 14:48:00 EDT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         "David M. Fresco" <FRESCO@UNC.BITNET>
Subject:      Stats in the USA?

Greetings,
I got this post from another list which reminded me of a recent
discussion about Stats lists.  I did not save the information.  So I was
was wondering if someone could summarize the findings for me or better
still, for the original poster.
David Fresco
 ---------------------------- Text of forwarded message -----------------------
Reply-To:     Research Network <IRL-NET@IRLEARN.BITNET>
From:         JHASLETT@VAX1.TCD.IE
Subject:      USA
To:           David Fresco <FRESCO@UNC.BITNET>,
              "Edward M. Galligan" <UAMRGN@UNC.BITNET>

Can someone let me know if there is an e-mail way to get to academic
statisticians in the US, like AllStat in the UK.

John Haslett, Dept Statistics, Trinity College Dublin
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Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 09:01:00 CDT
Reply-To:     "Interamerican Psychologists List (SIPNET)" <IAPSY-L@ALBNYVM1>
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
Comments:     Resent-From: <RJHARRIS@KSUVM>
Comments:     Originally-From: Joe Iovanisci <iovanisc@PILOT.NJIN.NET>
From:         RJHARRIS@KSUVM.BITNET
Subject:      Request Your Help

    I am posting this request on several lists, so please excuse any
redundancy.

    My name is Joe Iovanisci and I am a junior at Stockton State College in New
 Jersey.  I, along with other students, am doing a research project on
Internet/Bitnet and its resources.  The purpose of my research is to identify
the resources available on, or through, Internet that a professor of Psychology
might find useful or interesting.

    I am visiting several lists that seem to be related to psychology to
see if they are appropriate to include in the final resource manual that will
be assembled.

    I am requesting help with my research from the members of this list.
What Internet/Bitnet resources do you think would be of interest to a psych-
ology professor just starting with electronic communication?

    Thank you in advance for your help and I will be very happy to make
my final resource guide available to anyone that would care to receive it.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^  Joe Iovanisci                      iovanisc@pilot.njin.net      ^^
^^  Stockton State College             (609)-965-0835               ^^
^^  Pomona, New Jersey  08240                                       ^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 13:43:55 EDT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Tim Tumlin <UFTRT@NERVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Three Issues on Personality

  In regard to adlin's comment on psychodynamic therapy, it is difficult to
comment on your advisor's case, but it seems as though that was a strategic
decision on his part to work within that delusional system, as depriving the
patient of that would have been more than he could endure at that time.
Recall that Milton Erickson once encountered an inpatient who thought he,
the patient, was Jesus Christ. In order to engage him in some kind of
activity, he went to the patient and said "I understand you're a carpenter."
He convinced the patient to use his skills in the hospital shop and that
eventually led to gains that resulted in his recovery and release.
  Dynamic therapy may have a dictum of the truth will set you free; i've
never seen that. I DO know that Freud said that insight alone is not
enough. THere is more to dynamic therapy than knowing that you are refracting
your perceptions of reality.
   Of course, we cannot know if the patient's report is accurate, although some
 things are easier to figure out than others.  This is why the therapist should
 make maximum use of the therapeutic situation as a check.  As far as the
past not mattering, Freud said he found that a memory and a fantasy have the
same effect and that the business of psychoanalysis (therapy in general?) was
to deal with those effects.  This is something that is left out of the
seduction theory debate sometimes. Thus, he was giving his patients the benefit
 of the doubt -- i.e., it doesn't matter if someone was molested or believes
he/she was molested as a child, the sequalae are both to be treated and
worekd through.
Tim
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Date:         Sun, 13 Sep 1992 17:22:21 PDT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Stephanie Fishkin <fishkin@ALUDRA.USC.EDU>
Subject:      Organizational Psych Help (request)

I'm presently attempting to obtain training manuals, videos, etc. on the
topic of managing an ethnically diverse workforce. This type of search is
rather new to me, and I was wondering if any of you psycgradders might
have some suggestions how I would track these down and obtain them for as
little money as possible (it's for a class project).  Note too that I'm not
looking for psych textbooks; our prof. wants us to first start w/the stuff that
"the people in the real world are using".  I've got the names of some
consulting firms that do this kind of stuff for companies, but I don't know
if they would be willing to loan me this stuff gratis.

Thanks for any help and advice you can share.

Steph

*******************************CLINTON/GORE '92********************************
*******************************************************************************
Stephanie Fishkin, Dept. of Psychology, USC, Los Angeles, CA 90089-1061
fishkin@aludra.usc.edu

             x x     x
                x    x     x x
                  x  x    x
                   x x x x
                     x
                     x
                     x

"Truth happens to an idea.  It becomes true, is made true by events." W. James
*******************************************************************************
******************************VOTE IN NOVEMBER*********************************
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Date:         Mon, 14 Sep 1992 13:10:16 CDT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         C150630@MIZZOU1.BITNET
Subject:      Re: psychonomic society

This is a new one to me!  What are psychonomics and what is the purpose
of the society?

Polly
C150630@Mizzou1
From: plf2e@POE.ACC.VIRGINIA.EDU (Patricia Lombard Fiero)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.psycgrad
Subject: Grief references
Date: 15 Sep 92 18:36:16 GMT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
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Dear fellow PSYCGRADDERS:

I am just starting my lit search on grief and grief therapy.
Does anyone have any "don't miss" references on this topic?

Thanks a milliion

Patty Fiero
plf2e@virginia.edu.bitnet

at the University of Virginia in beautiful Charlottesville, VA
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Date:         Wed, 9 Sep 1992 07:33:00 EDT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         "David M. Fresco" <FRESCO@UNC.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Morality

Remo,
Yes, "comparative notion" was my concise, perhaps confusing phrase for
compare Freud to Hobbes.  I'm delighted to hear that neither thinker has
much relevance to your research.  I'm mostly amused by the idea that
both Hobbes and Freud proposed similar ideas from different philosphical
traditions at different times.  Sorry for the confusion.
Dave
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Date:         Tue, 15 Sep 1992 10:24:58 PDT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         "(Stephanie Fishkin)" <fishkin@ALUDRA.USC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: MacPsych-L address query?
              "TCHRISTEN01@cc.curtin.edu.au" at Sep 15, 92 11:25 am

Try macpsych-request@stolaf.edu and see if this works.

Good luck!

Stephanie
*******************************CLINTON/GORE '92********************************
*******************************************************************************
Stephanie Fishkin, Dept. of Psychology, USC, Los Angeles, CA 90089-1061
fishkin@aludra.usc.edu

             x x     x
                x    x     x x
                  x  x    x
                   x x x x
                     x
                     x
                     x

"Truth happens to an idea.  It becomes true, is made true by events." W. James
*******************************************************************************
******************************VOTE IN NOVEMBER*********************************
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Date:         Tue, 8 Sep 1992 22:16:00 EDT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         "David M. Fresco" <FRESCO@UNC.BITNET>
Subject:      Morality

Remo et al.,
In what is considered the most dreaded class here at UNC (that being
History and Systems) our instructor this evening gave us a brief review
of Hobbes (Thomas not Calvin and...) and his work Leviathan.  His
intent was to paint Hobbes as an empiricist (much to my delight) and
offered only minimal  time to what I consider to be the more remarkable
notions put forth by Hobbes.  I'm thinking of Hobbes' notion of hedonsim
which we as humans give up to the controls of society so that someone
else's hedonism doesn't come along and murder us.  (Said differently,
humans gave up primal instincts, tendencies to the rules of society to
keep ourselves safe etc.)  My first reading of Hobbes was preceded by
Locke's Second Treatise of Government (which is a painfully, dense story
in its own right).  More remarkable though, my reading of Hobbes was
also preceded by Freud's Civilization and its Discontents which for me
was an analogous formation of society's morals or as Freud termed it
super-ego.  This comparative notion has stayed with me for several years
now and I brought it up in class tonight.  My instructor said that the
connection was interesting, but tenuous.  I ask you  now Remo, to offer
your opinion on this matter.  I hope you agree with the notion I put
forth.  I'd be more surprised to learn that this connection is novel
rather than just plain wrong.  Is any of this relevant to the research
you recently plugged?
David Fresco
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Date:         Fri, 11 Sep 1992 08:27:14 CDT
              <PSYCGRAD@UOTTAWA.BITNET>
From:         Mike Babyak <HOPE@UKANVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Three Issues on Personality

I guess I was not very clear when I made the comment about the
Rorshach.  I metioned that so-called rational scientific psychologists
have a great tradition od bashing the Rorshach, when in fact its
psychometric properties stand up very well when contrasted with
other assessment devices.  This is not an opinion, rather, it is based
on four meta-analyses recently  published.  For a review, see Shontz
and Green in the latest issue of Applied and Preventative Psychology.
I cited this to make the point that psychologists too have their own
folk beliefs, ie, opinions that aren't based on the facts.  Put
differently, psychologists pride themselves on being scientific,
but often (or at least sometimes) ignore scientific evidence if
that evidence challenges cherished beliefs.  Another example of a folk
belief in psychology os the myth of the Schacter-Singer epinephrine
experiment.  Not one significant main effect was found in it, in fact,
the so-called misattribution effect only was present in a few of the
Moreover, psychologosts have largely been unable to replicate it.
Nevertheless, how many intro instructors out there teach it as if
it proved the general arousal/attribution theory.
As for the genetics issue, much of the work of Plomin has shown that
genetics indeed account for a surprising amount of variance even in
variables that look entirely psychosocial (e.g. stressful life events).
But as Plomin takes great pains to point out over and over, this is
in no way a deterministic model -- rather, it is a probabilistic one.
In other words, genes make certain dispositions more likely, they don't
doom one to be a certain way.

MIKE BABYAK UNIVERSITY OF KANSAS         *THERE'S NO PLACE LIKE HOME*
HOPE@UKANVM
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