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Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 11:55:29 EDT
From:         Leo W <Leo_W@QM.CIRCA.UFL.EDU>
Subject:      Scripturette 8/27
X-To:         Christia <christia@asuvm.inre.asu.edu>

"He is against anything called God or anything that people worship.  And the
Man of Evil puts himself above anything called God or anything that people
worship.  And that Man of Evil even goes into God's Temple and sits there.
Then he says that he is God" (2 Thessalonians 2:4).

"The devil said, "If you will bow down and worship me, I will give you all
these things"" (Matthew 4:9).

"People worshiped the dragon because he had given his power to the beast.  And
they also worshiped the beast ... He used his mouth to speak against God.  He
spoke against God's name, against the place where God lives, and against all
those who live in heaven ... All who live on earth will worship the beast.
These are all the people since the beginning of the world whose names are not
written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 13:4-8).

"You must not have any other gods except me.  You must not make for yourselves
any idols ... You must not worship or serve any idol" (Exodus 20:3-5).

Yours in Christ Jesus,
Leo

Scriptures quoted from the International Children's Bible (ICB), New Century
Version, copyright 1986, 1988 by Word Publishing, Dallas, Texas 75039.  Used by
permission.
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 12:32:10 CST
From:         A16905@ITESO.BITNET
Subject: Re: RCC & married priests

Absolutely Leo, The Oriental rite acepsts married priests !

Shalom,
Memo.
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Date:         Thu, 3 Sep 1992 08:34:00 +1000
From:         Ken Diefenbach <DIEFENBAK@TOPAZ.UCQ.EDU.AU>
Subject:      Hi Theresa
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU

Nice to hear from you again Theresa. Keep smiling (and I'm still a retired
musician, although I'm currently wobbling the house walls with 2nd Chapter of
Acts Hymns)

Regards
Ken D.
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Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 10:49:14 -0600
From:         Vernon Galloway <gallowav@CC.GETTYSBURG.EDU>
Subject:      RE:Christians and governmental involvement.

In Message Wed, 2 Sep 1992 09:29:00 EST,
  "DRCV06::GRAHAM" <GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL> writes:

>I guess I'm a little confused.  I have put forth the verses from 1 Cor
>5:12,13 before where Paul clearly, or at least, clearly to me, says that we
>Christians should be involved in church matters, but let the world go about
>its way because God will judge them.  How can this be consolidated with the
>seemingly pervasive view that Christians must be involved in government?
>My exegesis of these verses indicates that it means exactly what it seems
>to say, we should keep hands off the world.  Let them go on, God will deal
>with them.  How else can these verses be construed?  I am really curious
>and interested in other informed opinions.
>
>Dan Graham

Dan, I'd like to put forth a different view of these verses.  I don't see
that they directly apply to involvement in government, pro or con.  1 Cor 5
addresses a problem in the church at Corinth.  They were tolerating, and
proud of it, a man living in an incestious relationship  v1  "It is
reported that there is immorality among you ..." .  Paul is telling the
local church to remove the immoral person before he spoils the whole group.
"I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral men; not at all
meaning the immoral of this world, ... since then you would need to go out
of the world.  But I wrote to you not to associate with anyone who bears the
name of brother if he is guilty of immorality ... - not even to eat with
such a one.  For what have I to do with judging outsiders?  Is it not those
inside the church whom you are to judge?  God judges those outside.  Drive
out the wicked person from among you." v 9-13.  (all RSV)  Paul is
instructing those who were of the Body of Christ and members of the local
church at Corinth (just as we are members of the Body of Christ and a local
church somewhere) to cleanse themselves.  He specifically does not include a
prohibition on associating with the immoral of the world.  He recognizes
that we must associate with the world. I don't see how these verses can be
construed as instructions not to take part in government.  We are only
instructed that God, not us, judges the immoral of the world.  But we do
need to judge those with the name of brother.

Vernon


Vernon Galloway
Gettysburg College
MicroComputer Technician
gallowav@gettysburg.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
Subject: Re:      This won't win me any friends, but...
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 22:52:17 GMT

In article <CHRISTIA%92082109255925@ASUACAD.BITNET> Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET> writes:
>You can *not* get others out of Hell.

   I thought someone would catch this.  I believe the quote in
question was something about "saving souls from hell."  This is not to
be taken as "get[ting] others out of [h]ell."  What was meant was
saving people from _even entering hell in the first place_.  This is
the same connotation of "save" as one would use in the sentence, "He
saved me from going over a cliff."  The Catholic Church teaches that
there is no way to get out of hell.  So we really agree on this point;
you just misunderstood.

>Jesus does *not* want us to follow Mary *and* Him; He wants us to
>   follow Him *alone*.

   See my earlier point about since Mary follows Christ, to follow her
is to follow Christ.

>Love, In the Name of Christ, and Christ alone,
>
>                            --Kerry

   In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

--Steve

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
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Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 14:37:00 MDT
From:         MARCHIBOLD@MSCD.BITNET
Subject:      prayer request

Dear Christia folks:

A couple of years ago my husband and I had some construction work done
on our house and found that unbeknownst to us we had hired a Christian
contractor.  He was a joy to work with and it was a delightful experience
and so he was the logical choice when we recently decided to do some more
fixing up.

Well - I got a call yesterday from his right hand man and was told that
he had had brain surgery Monday afternoon.  They found an agressively
growing malignant tumor with tendrils into the brain which cannot be removed.
He will be starting on radiation or chemotherapy as soon as possible.

Please pray for Bob Withrow, his wife and grown children, his doctors, and
for all the wonderful people he has working for him.

Thanks
Molly Archibold
marchibold@mscd
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Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 22:20:40 EDT
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From:         Angela Zimmerman <AMZIMM01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject:      School and Religion

Item Retrieval Assistant, DADS
Phone: 588-6757

I've started classes and now I don't have as much time to post!  I've
just finished reading posts from the past three days...lots of interesting
discussion that I've been missing!

Michael, could you email me part one of the interview by Pat Robertson
about Humanism?  I accidentally deleted it.  Thanks!

I know not much has been said on this in the past couple of days, but
I thought I'd let everyone know about this anyway.  I'm taking 5 classes
this semester.  Three of them have mentioned religion as part of the
studies (but only one is a religion class), and the other has mentioned
it in passing.  In my history class, from looking at the syllabus, we're
going to be studying Christianity *a lot*.  I don't see anyone trying
to take the study of Christianity out of the classes here.  I have a
paper due in my religion class a little later in the semester where
we have to choose a religious topic or issue to write about (8-10 pages).
Does anyone have any suggestions/help for it?  Please email me if you
do, since I don't want to clutter up the list with my religion homework! :)
I'd like to do something about Christianity, which is why I'm asking.
One request, though...don't suggest abortion or politics!  :)  Thanks!
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Date:         Mon, 31 Aug 1992 00:52:56 EDT
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From:         Angela Zimmerman <AMZIMM01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject:      State Fair

Item Retrieval Assistant, DADS
Phone: 588-6757

I went to the state fair this weekend and had a 45 minute discussion about
the bible and beliefs with a man at the "Amazing Grace Missions" booth.
I was really impressed because after the first few minutes he was more
open-minded (read: didn't tell me flat out that I was wrong).  He said
that he couldn't tell me what to believe and that he was only telling me
what he believed.  I think he actually listened to my questions and
problems with the bible and tried to answer them without making it sound
like he thought I was wrong to believe (or not believe, as the case may
be).  A display they had as an attention getter was something with
doors on it saying "three things God CANNOT do".  That's how I started
off my discussion with him.  I asked if saying that God COULDN'T do
something was putting limitations on a supposedly limitless God.  The
three things were something like God cannot lie, God cannot change, and
God cannot accept anyone into heaven who does not go through Christ.
What does everyone here think about those?  Is that putting limitations
on God?  Last year, the display was three things that God does not
know, but I don't remember at the moment what those were.

Also, a question.  I found a flyer (in fact, I know the person who put
them up) that has the beliefs, basically, of the secular humanists.
They seem to be just as moralistic as Christians and in fact share many
of the same beliefs that I do.  Is anyone interested in my posting
those?  I know this is a Christian disscusion list, but I thought some
of you might be interested.  Perhaps I should mail them through
private mail to whoever wants them (if anyone).  Let me know if you
want them.  Madge or Steve, if there is enough interest, would it be
alright to post them to the list?  I wanted to do this with the man
at the fair booth, but didn't, but I would like to take them point by
point and compare them with what Christianity says.  Would this be
possible?  Would anyone be interested in this?  If nothing else, I'd
like to do this in private email with someone, if there isn't enough
interest on the list.

Sorry this is so long, but after not posting for a week, I have to get
it all out at once!  :)
From: FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET (zane of dhahran)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: prayer
Date: 29 Aug 92 08:41:58 GMT
Organization: King Fahd University of Petroleum and Minerals, S.A.
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I have one student in particular this summer term who is trying his best
to show me the error of Christianity and the necessity of becoming Muslim.
I would appreciate prayer for him (Ali) and for me (zane).  Specifically
that I would be able to give him answers to his questions (or rather accusation
s), stick to the Issue (not the questions), and be patient.

Also, pray that I can keep myself out of trouble with the authorities, as it
has gotten a little hot and heavy in the classroom at times of unauthorized
discussion.

Why do they always want to talk about the Trinity??

Also, have any of you heard of Deedat?  He is an Ethiopian Muslim from South
Africa that is one of the primary Islamic apologists writing in both Arabic and
English.  I must have over a dozen of his little books students have given me
talking about how messed up the Bible and Christians are....  In the local mall
they show vcr tapes of his debates with Jimmy Swagart....  Last month he claime
d to be instrumental in the conversion of a couple of Ethiopian Christian pries
ts and that made it big in the news here.  Any of you read his stuff in your
countries?
                                          Thanks, peace, zane.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 11:34:07 CDT
From:         CCCHRIS@MIZZOU1.BITNET
Subject:      A child's view of Heaven

Have any of you seen the flick "My Girl"?  You might enjoy it.  One excerpt
between the two main characters deals with how they perceive Heaven:

He:  What do you think it's like?
She: What?
He:  Heaven.
She: I think everybody gets their own white horse
     And all they do is ride
     And eat marshmellows all day.
     And everybody's best friends with everybody else
     And when you play sports, there's no team
     So nobody gets picked last.
He:  But what if you're afraid to ride horses?
She: It doesn't matter.
     They're not regular horses.
     They've got wings.
     And it's no big deal if you fall
     Cuz you just land in a cloud.
He:  That doesn't sound bad.

If you get a chance, I'd see this movie.  I apologize is this type of dialogue
belongs on a movies/film critics listserv.  But it's refreshing to actually
*enjoy* a film without cringing when the kids come into the room.

Hope everybody has a long, refreshing weekend.

Chris Reed
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 12:45:33 EDT
From:         carol nemec <YA67@FERRIS.BITNET>
Subject:      SEx

I found a couple more, but it depends on how fantasy is
used.

James 1:13-15
Galations 5:13-26
I Corinthians 10:1-14, maybe

Carol Nemec
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: 75furlong@cua.edu
Subject: The Bible and Homophobia
Organization: The Catholic University of America
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 14:49:25 GMT

In article <CHRISTIA%92082702023185@ASUACAD.BITNET>,         Wolfgang Hutter <HUTTER@DULRUU51.BITNET> writes:

> ACT 15:28  For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay
>  upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
> ACT 15:29  That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from
>  blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which
>  if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
> 
> Btw: I'm no Greek scholar, but I suspect that homosexuality would fall
> under 'fornication' in this context.

Well, no, actually - sex outside of marriage, homosexual _or_ heterosexual, is 
fornication. This passage makes no differentiation between homosexuality and
heterosexuality.  
 
>>--> No one is asking you to do that.  What I would like to see happen (and the
>>       author of the piece would agree with me) is that the Bible cease to
>>       function as a political weapon.
> 
> Just today I received a letter in which the writer states that the
> author of the piece used the Bible for 'political reasons'. So I would
> doubt that he would agree with you... And telling that  * practicing *
> homosexuality (not  * being *  homophile!) is sin is not a political
> issue in the first place.

Yes, but applying a Christian definition of sin (or family values, or whatever)
to the laws of a country that supposedly allows a person freedom of religion
(freedom NOT to be Christian as well) is a political act. Just think - if
lesbigay people were allowed to marry here, they would no longer be
fornicators, would they? Two men were legally married in Pennsylvania recently
(the paperwork was signed before anyone noticed). Many same sex marriages have
occured _within Christian churches_, but are not legally recognized. These 
people can no longer be considered fornicators, since they have been joined in 
marriage. Does the bible still condemn them?

Politicos who say that same-sex marriages are un-Christian or go against 
"family values" are denying these people the chance to have a traditional 
(Christian or not) marriage and family. These politicians are also forgetting
that the US doesn't have a national religion and that imposing Christian
beliefs through law is unconstitutional.  
 
> CO1 5:11  [...] not to keep company, if
>  any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or
>  an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with
>  such an one no not to eat.

Again, no specific reference to homosexuality except as a subset of
fornication. Let them get married - problem solved.

> Wolfgang <><

-Alison
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 16:01:00 GMT
From:         Z_STAFF_CL@SOUTHAMPTON-INSTITUTE.AC.UK
Subject:      "Their" Lady .....

On Tue, 25 Aug 1992 22:17:55 EST Kerry Stephenson said:
>Excuse me:
>
>While I in no way believe in any of these apparitions of Mary, nor in
>the traditions of the Catholic church, I think that deliberately
>referring to "Their Lady of Guacamole" is flippant, rude, and
>uncalled for. We may not agree with the RCC attitude toward Mary,
>but I think it is incumbent upon us to recognize the reverence in
>which she is held by those who do.  I tried very hard not to
>insult those who disagree with me on this issue, and to speak the
>truth as I know it in love.
>
>To deliberately denigrate someone dear to another is unChristian.
>I would not treat someone's friend or mother in this fashion, and I
>do not think that ridiculing a deeply held belief has any chance of
>changing that belief.
>
>I expect to see things like this on the Politics list, but not here.
>
>Please, let us strive to keep the level of dialogue here a bit
>higher than the mud-pits over on the Politics list.

and

>From: Madge McBurney <ISPMOM%BITNET.ASUACAD@EDU.VT.CC.VTVM2>
>
>Thank you Kerry!   I've been very disappointed with some of the
>comments made on this topic.  Sarcasm and ridicule will never be
>welcome on this list!


Whilst I agree with these statements, I would like to suggest that
some would also object to the implication that they should veiw BVM
as "Our Lady" when they do not feel able to acknowledge the
dogma/theology/tradition behind the title.
It may not always be sarcasm or ridicule.  It may be a straight "I
have no wish to be associated with that and therefore will not use
that title."
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Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 12:45:20 CDT
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: 2 Peter 3
              2 Sep 1992 13:34:06 EDT from <LMENDELS@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU>

Dear Lon ;
Sorry about the misnomer of your name ... I have to hurry out these blurbs
due to time constraints and I guess my memory failed.
Notwithstanding, The language of 2 Peter 3 is used more than once in the
Old Testament in cases where the end of a person or offending persons was
a foregone conclusion, as far as God was concerned.
One case said that the world would come to an end (within the Old Testament
time period).
Obviously, the world did not end, but THEIR world did!!
That is the use of Apocalyptic language ... often overstatement is employed
to indicate the CERTAINTY and FINALITY of an event of catyclism.



Jesse Carnes
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Date:         Mon, 31 Aug 1992 02:48:20 EDT
From:         Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Absolution

Wolfgang,

No, you have not understood the Catholic teaching on confession
correctly.  The fault is partly mine.  I said that someone's whose
sins are forgiven because he confesses them directly to God (with
perfect contrition) must still confess to a priest out of obedience
to God's plan.  That might have suggested that the requirement to
confess to a priest is just a rule.  That is incorrect. It would have
been better if I had said in fulfillment of God's plan.  Remember the
explanation I gave as to why Christ chose to make His forgiveness
available through the ministry of His priest:  Sin is an offense
against the majesty and holiness of God, it is an offense against
Jesus in His physical body, and it is an offense against Jesus in His
mystical body, the Church.  Therefore, Jesus has chosen to make His
forgiveness available through His mystical body, through certain men
who have that function in the body.  The Council of Trent defined
that perfect contrition brings forgiveness only when it is associated
with a desire for the Sacrament of Confession.  (For Protestants that
would be an implicit desire, in that the repentant sinner desires to
do whatever God wants him to do and would go to confession if he knew
that that was what God wanted.

The Sacrament of Confession, or of Penance, or of Reconciliation
(which is its current official name) is part of the sacramental sys-
tem.  The catechism definition of a sacrament is "an outward sign
instituted by Christ to give grace."  Therefore, the priest's words
of absolution, said with the authority given by Jesus to His Apostles
and their successors, effect the forgiveness of sins.  They do not
merely declare the fact of God's forgiveness.

Marty Helgesen
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Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 13:40:13 -0500
From:         Jason Briggs Cormier <CORJB@RHODES.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: St. Paul/Sexual sin...

My only bone of contention, is that I fail to see sex as the
all-encompassing act.  Granted, I am a virgin and can't say from
experience, but I beleive that sex can be devoid of the spiritual
and emotional aspect and just be sex.  This is something then
that I cannot see as wrong.

I understand what the Bible says, I have been a devout student of
it for 11 years.  I simply don't believe that all of the Bible was
intended for everyone, in every generation.

Jason
From: scsd1055@altair.selu.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Cold Springs, hot temper  (apology)
Date: 1 Sep 92 22:54:53 -0600
Organization: Southeastern Louisiana University

	I stand corrected... and formally apologize... 

	I kind of got carried away....  you know us RCs...

	Sorry Tom for assuming that the quote was a personal attack on Jews.
My ignorance got the best of me. But I am still fuming over the anti-RC
stuff...  Okay all?  I made a boob out of myself...  I'll try to turn off my
boob switch... :-)  or maybe 8-) [with little boob eyes]

Bill Plunkett
scsd1055@altair.selu.edu
"Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life"  -- Dean Wormer 
						      -- ANIMAL HOUSE
 
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