From: slzm9@cc.usu.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Response to More White Liberal Bullshit Re: What A White Person Learned
Date: 5 Jan 93 13:55:53 MDT
Organization: Utah State University

In article <C09Muu.Jsw@quake.sylmar.ca.us>, brian@quake.sylmar.ca.us (Brian K. Yoder) writes:
> In article <1992Dec31.173840.62373@cc.usu.edu> slzm9@cc.usu.edu writes:
>>In article <1992Dec30.153217.11011@vax.oxford.ac.uk>, mcbean@vax.oxford.ac.uk writes:
>>> In article <168C91469E.DRPORTER@SUVM.SYR.EDU>, DRPORTER@SUVM.SYR.EDU (Brad Porter) writes:
>>>> In article <1992Dec18.045728.27773@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>
>>>> ndw2u@curry.edschool.Virginia.EDU (Nicole Danielle Woodard) writes:
> 
>>>> Really?  That's sincere, not sarcastic.  I don't live in the real world,
>>>> I live in a town in NY with an African-America population of at most 10 out
>>>> of 3000.  Yet even while I've probably only know 5 or 6 African-Americans
>>>> personally, I don't think I have a deep-rooted hatred for any minority group.
> 
>>   You may not but it would be naive of you to assume everyone is like
>>you. And if you have read anything at all you should have gotten
>>a clue that outside your picturesque hamlet all is not well. But
>>unless you are deaf, dumb and blind you must be aware that slavery
>>was practiced for 400 years. Do you think such institution- and
>>society-wide acceptance of such a practice leaves no mark on the
>>ancestors of the slavemasters or the slaves? 
> 
> But that's not what he said.  He said that he had seen very little racism.
> I must say that I have seen fairly little too.  That doesn't mean that 
> either of us thinks it doesn't exist.  What it means is that blanket claims
> that "America is a Racist" country or that all blacks are discriminated 
> against are quite suspect.
> 

   Just because you suspect claims of discrimination are not valid does
not mean they don't exist. And, I must really ask you: Who is in a
better position to determine if discrimination is occurring the oppressor
or the oppressed? Unless you have some reason to believe you have a
monopoly on truth you should probably listen to people who claim they
have been discriminated against unless you wan't to be part of the problem.
   I am white. What I have noticed is a lot of subtle cultural, economic
and educational discrimination that suppresses african americans.
There is enough cultural inertia in this society to retain discriminatory 
practices long after most people have individually decided they are wrong.
   So take a look around both white and black people are trying to tell
you they have personally witnessed discrimination, usually it is quite
subtle because overt discrimination is not politically correct. So are
you going to admit that your personal experience may not be the only
possible thread of experience in this society? Or are you going to do
the same old tired white liberal thing and say: "This is a problem of
the past and in time it will go away completely." If you choose the
later then sir you are part of the problem not part of the solution.

>>>> At the same time, I'm not qualified to debate what the rest of society
>>>> believes.  I guess I have a hard time believing there is an underlying
>>>> prejudice against African-Americans throughout white society.  
> 
>>   Well it's time to wake up and face reality. In the U.S. there is
>>a system of thoughts and practices among many races that does
>>not treat African Americans as full partners in american society
> 
> OK, what are the components of this system?  First, there are organized
> racist groups (the various KKK and nazi idiots) of whom there are very few
> and I think that you would agree that 99% of whites hate those guys as 
> much as you do.  Second, there are the "Archie Bunkers" of the world, who
> are also pretty much looked down upon by everyone white or black.  There
> are also some social organizations which don't welcome blacks (though they
> are not explicitly "out to get them") such as white country clubs and the
> like.  Let's see...I guess you could add the little old ladies who are
> afraid of blacks.  There are also a few businessmen who still might refuse
> to deal with blacks (though they keep it hidden and do so unofficially).
> What else is left?  Is this the "system" you are talking about, or something
> else?

   You truly are a product of the media aren't you? The only racists you
are familir with are the KKK, Archie Bunker, white country clubs, and
"a few businessmen who still might refuse to deal with blacks." These are
primarily the only remaining explicit examples of racism left. These are
the ones the media publicizes and let's the public think that racism
is now confined to a few backwards-thinking out-of-the-mainstream groups.
   OK, are you listening? 1) Universities. Read my post on "Minorities
in Science." Or better yet read the special feature on the same subject
in the journal Science (Nov. 13, 1992). In that feature in Science evidence
is presented to show that minority students in the field of science 
are less likely to get into college, less likely to get a degree, and 
less likely to proceed to post graduate programs. This is subtle. Few
professors are giving lower grades to students to get them to drop
or fail a class. Instead they mentor white kids that show a lot of promise
and let the minority and other students that perform less well sink
or swim on their own.
   2) Elementary and Secondary Schools. One reason minority students
do less well in college is they are not as well prepared as the average
white student. Why is that? Because elementary and secondary schools
with predominately minority enrollments are less likely to have as
much money for books, classroom materials, or TEACHER SALARIES. If you
pay less you get lower quality instruction - that's a basic of economics.
Also from a young age a monority student is less likely to be encouraged
to go to college because of a commonly held misconception about the
ability of these students to make it in the university setting. This
was quite common in my high school where white students like myself
in advanced placement classes were encouraged to take college prep
classes. In my Analytical Analysis class in high school the only
non-white student (in a high school that was 35% black) was counseled
by a high school employee to go to the local technical school so that
they could "get a good job." We were both in an advanced placement class!
What was the difference between us except skin color?
   These are examples of subtle discrimination in America's school system.
What about other areas.
   3) The workplace. It is harder for a black person to get a job
than a white person even with Affirmative Action. If you don't
believe me why not ask other readers of this newsgroup about their
personal experiences. Blacks are underrepresented in all professional
careers that I am aware of. Blacks make up 18% of the work force yet
less that 18% of the following professionals are black: doctors,
lawyers, CPA's, politicians, bankers, and the list goes on.
   4) Where are black people overrepresented? Look in any prison,
and you will find the most prominent example of economic discrimination
against African Americans. Do you suppose these people are like you
and found it impossible to earn a living legally and so turned to
crime to support themselves and/or their families? Or do you reckon
that black people are more likely to commit crimes at birth? Is it
they are just more likely to grow up as criminals?
   Well the proportion of crimes committed by African Americans of
middle to upper middle class upbringing is almost exactly the same
as white Americans of middle to upper middle class upbringing. I think
this would suggest that economic discrimination has something to do
with the proportion of African Americans that turn to crime.
   This is the system I'm talking about. A number of institutions in
this beautiful unbiased US of A that routinely makes it more difficult
for African Americans to get a quality education, get a job and hold
it, and own and operate their own businesses.


> 
>>And that is putting it as mildly as I possibly can. Why do you
>>suppose it is twice as hard for a black person to get a job as
>>a white person? 
> 
> Twice as hard?  How do you conclude that?  For many kinds of jobs (say,
> university professor jobs) it is exactly the opposite.

   Pardon my language but BULLSHIT. I am finishing my Ph.D. now and am
currently looking for a university faculty position. Also I have
sat on search committees at my home institution. We advertise a job
and get maybe 200 applications. There might be two candidates that
are minorities out of that 200. There might be 20 applications from
women (an underrepresented majority). After the first cut - where all
a candidate has to do is  meet the requirements of the advertisement 
for the position - there are 4 women left and no minority applicants.
How they hell are you going to get a minority applicant into a position
when you can't find one that is qualified.
   Now you will say that is not the fault of the university and I would
agree it is a problem of a society that produces so few minority scientists
(I work in Natural Resources Research and Management) that we can't
find ONE qualified minority applicant. Would you still like to argue
there is no discrimination  in this field? Whether is happens
at the hiring phase or during the development phase doesn't matter
there are NO minority faculty in my entire college at my university, 
that's out of about 60 faculty members. Every one of that 60 is
a white male except for one woman tenure track faculty member.

> 
>>Why do you suppose a black person makes a small
>>proportion of a dollar for every dollar (does anyone out there
>>know the current proportion of the dollar?) a white person makes for
>>the same job and the same hours?
> 
> I don't know the number, but even if you had that number, how would you
> distinguish between the part of the difference due to differing qualifications,
> experience, and education as opposed to the part due to racism?
> 

   With the same experience, qualifications, experience and education the
black worker will make less than $1.00 for every dollar made by the
white worker.

>>   I'm not saying other groups don't have these problems. But
>>it is ridiculous to believe there is no "underlying prejudice
>>against African-Americans throughout white society."
> 
> I don't think that anyone here says that there is no racism.  My point is
> that racism is no longer the kind of brick wall it once was.  Now it's
> more of a speed bump...still something that ought to be eliminated, but
> not the overriding factor in determining how far you can go.
> 
>>>> Prejudice is a personal, not societal matter isn't it?  
> 
>>   No. As far as I know Malcolm X was one of the first African
>>Americans to state this publicly. 
> 
> If it's not a personal matter, how can it be changed?  I can change my own mind
> and I can try to change the minds of other individuals, but what more is
> possible?  If all the individuals stop being racists, racism would be gone, no?
> 

   We must change the institutions that still discriminate against minorities
regardless of what person is in charge. Universities, social programs,
lower funding of poor school systems. Why won't the school systems in
the LA area share money? No the people there want their money to stay
in their school system. Understandable, but still a method of providing
lower funding for poorer school systems where the average income is lower.
And the students from those poorer school systems are more likely
to make lower incomes as adults and - what do you know - many of those
school systems are primarily minority students.
   If you really want to change things try to convince those around
you of the difficulties which still exist. But search for systematic
bias in the organizations in which you are involved, find it, destroy
it or develop a program to reverse the trend.

>>In his autobiography he discusses
>>why individual white people may be moral people exhibiting
>>little racial bias. But institutions in America and group behavior
>>seems to elicit racist actions from even upstanding members of the
>>white community. As I recall he did not delve deply into "why" this
>>was occurring he merely observed that it did happen.
> 
> Like most of the things Malcolm said, I think this is just an excuse for 
> his hatred of whites.  If I said "Individual blacks may be hard-working
> and intelligent, but the social institutions of black society cause 
> blacks to be stupid and lazy." you would object to the racist implications
> would you not?

   Your ignorance is showing. Malcolm X never hated white people. He judged
them by their actions which is the way our courts system works. He
correctly concluded that a race which systematically kills members of
other races (in this case his), maims and beats them, cheats them
economically, does everything in it's power to keep them in poor 
neighborhoods, keep them from organizing or using their political power -
a race that systematically does that to another race is not a group
that members of the oppressed race can easily love. And later in
life after his Hajj, El-hajj Malik El-Shabazz (the former Malcolm X) stated
"In the past, yes, I have made sweeping indictments of ALL white people.
I never will be guilty of that again - as I know now that some white
people ARE truly sincere, that some truly are capable of being brotherly
toward a black man." And, "I have learned that not all white people are
racists. I am speaking against and my fight is against the white RACISTS."
And, "Work in conjunction with us -- each of us working among our own
kind." Let sincere white individuals find all other white people they can
... to work trying to convert other white people who are thinking and acting
so racist... We will completely respect our white co-workers. They will
deserve every credit. We will give them every credit... In our mutual
sincerity we might be able to show a road to the salvation of America's
very soul... Only such real, meaningful actions as those which are sincerely
motivated from a deep sense of humanism and moral responsibility can
get at the basic causes that produce the racial explosions in America today."
   If he hated white people so much how could he be ready to work with
them to find an end to racial discrimination taking place in America.
I suggest you think about where you got your information about Malcolm
X, probably from the American media. Can I suggest you judge the man
by HIS words and not the words of a journalist. Get his autobiography
and read it. Then if you would like we can discuss the man and his
thought and not the media's portrayal of the figure "Malcolm X."
> 
>>>> My fear however, is that
>>>> because of AA, I'm going to have an extremely difficult time finding a job -
>>>> much more difficult than a woman or minority will.  
> 
>>   The fact of the matter is this just doesn't seem to be true. There
>>are enough jobs out there that if you are reasonably easy to work with,
>>get along with other people, do good work and can prove it on your
>>resume or Curriculum Vitae then being a white male won't stop you
>>from getting a job. Far from it, it may provide you with an inherent
>>advantage - that is life today in racist America.
> 
> Face it.  When a white male applies for a job, many employers openly and in
> print say that they will hire non-white males over white males if they can.

   Yep, they say that right there in print: "They are an EQUAL OPPORTUNITY
EMPLOYER." Look at it that's what it says, NOT "inority applicants
will be given priority in hiring for this position."

> While it is true that they might hire a white male sometimes, knowing that 
> there is a bias (and that opposing it exposes one to charges of racism)
> makes many white males angry.  At least the anti-black racists have to hide
> their policies, the anti-white biases are trumpeted as good!
> 

   One last time, I am a white man. I have NEVER, REPEAT NEVER, had difficulty
getting a job in the field in which I have desired to work. What you
suggest that white men cannot get a job in their chosen field is just
not true!

>>>> Don't get tripped up
>>>> by this question:  Is is worse for an African-American to be prejudice
>>>> against a white because his/her ancestors were slave-holders, or is it
>>>> worse for a white to be prejudiced against an African-American because
>>>> his/her ancestors were slaves?
> 
>>   Both are, in my opinion, morally incorrect. But ask yourself this question:
>>If it is true that African Americans have suffered from 100 years of
>>subtle discrimination in American education, society and politics since 
>>the end of the civil war - is it wrong to give them an advantage in
>>getting into universities, getting jobs, or providing economic infra-
>>structure in their communites? 
> 
> In a word...Yes.  Racism is wrong, no matter who practices it.
> 

   You are a part of the problem. If you don't have enough guts to
stand up and say we will make amends for our forefather's mistakes
you are just saying fine if racism is inherent in the sytem: so be it.
But as for me I will do everything in my power to change the way
we educate, hire, and view our brothers and sisters in this country where "we
hold this truth to be self evident - that all men are created equal."


> I should add that nobody has experienced that for 100 years.  People are
> individuals and ought to be treated according to individual attributes,
> experience, and ability, not according to racial history.
>

   For 100 years a long line of  African Americans have been denied
equal treatment in this country. Now you want to consider them
according only to their individual attributes, experience, and ability
which has been systematically influenced by their racial history.
Your attributes have been influence by your racial history as well - 
your ancestors and you have been given an advantage in economic
areas, education, medical treatment, and cultural significance. Now
you say let's forget all that and just let everybody be equal when
you start out with an advantage. How very convenient.
 
> --Brian


Peace, but not without justice,

Zip
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american