HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: >suggestion<
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 19:12:33 GMT

cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
: In article <1992Jul23.000645.11539@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com> billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
: >
: >As I have posted before. There are many Pagans who are atheists or agnostics.
: >Since they have no religion, it is hard to say that Paganism is a religion.
: 
: You are assuming that religion is synonymous (in part) with belief in a
: personalized deity.  Is this to say that Buddhism is not a religion?
: When you try to define hazy terms like this, you invariably end up
: eating your tail.  I wish I still had that long post about "spirituality
: doesn't depend on the name you use for yourself."  Oh, well.  

Not quite. I am assuming that religion is the belief in the supernatural.
Gods or deities are not necessarily involved.

There are pagans who are not "spiritual", in any sense.

: >: which also fall under the header "Pagan", but each one of them speaks for
: >: themselves, and is no more and no less right for its adherents than my nameless
: >: Paganism is for me.  Not everyone who is a Pagan is comfortable with the
: >: definitions or structures of the recognised Pagan faiths.  Still, we have a right to
: >: call ourselves "Pagan", and to have our form of worship respected.
: >
: >Certainly - no one is denying that.
: 
: We have the right to call ourselves whatever the hell we want and be
: respected; the respect due to every being shouldn't depend on the name
: we use.  We have the right to be respected, period.

Isn't that what I agreed to above? I respect a person for what they are, not
what they believe. I also don't care what you call yourself - I only take
exception when you try to place this same label on others who do not accept
the same definition. Now, if you say "I am a Pagan, and I call my religion
Paganism" - then I would have no objection at all. Note that you are applying
the terms to yourself and it is clear that they are your definitions.

: >: intollerant, but if it seems I have, please ask for a clarification -- I may have just
: >: mispoke or mistyped.
: >
: >No, I don't think you have shown any intolerance. I just think that you do not
: >fully understand what we are trying to say. This may be our fault, as much as
: >anything.
: 
: What "we" is this?

The others that were disagreeing with the definition of "paganism" that was
being argued about.

Bill
From: wolfe@wolves.uucp (G. Wolfe Woodbury)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Movies with pagan themes
Date: 24 Jul 92 01:33:59 GMT
Organization: Red Wolfe @ The Wolves Den
X-Md4-Signature: 378e7ee26ca522e4a0d024ed9850ad6a

In article <1992Jul18.103226.9148@ddsw1.mcs.com> 
eshin@ddsw1.mcs.com (Eshin-Fun) writes:
>
>Yeah!!!! lots of them!

Missing from Eshin-Fun's list are some of the more interesting fantasy
movies.

The Dark Crystal
The Never-Ending Story
Never-Ending Story, Chapter II (?)


And a variety of SF genre flicks

DUNE
  etc.

Just a few of my choices.

				Wolfe
-- 
G. Wolfe Woodbury @ The Wolves Den UNIX, Durham NC         [use the maps!]
UUCP: ...dukcds!wolves!wolfe   ...duke!wolves!wolfe    <Standard disclaimers>
Domain: wolfe%wolves@cs.duke.edu    wolfe@cds.duke.edu
    Above all, we celebrate.   Celebrate the Circle Statement of Purpose
From: asuccop@milton.u.washington.edu (Annemarie Succop)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Someting ailsa brought up (was Re: Who cares)
Date: 22 Jul 92 23:25:54 GMT
Organization: University of Washington


	who are 'so many homosexual realtionships'?

	'gay' or 'lesbian' or even 'same gender' is usually better-
	recieved than the clinical 'homosexual'.

	i think some folks do butch/femme 'coz they find it a turn on.
	butch/femme can be an apprearance thing, or a who-does-what-to-
	who-vanilla-sexually thing, or a sm/leather dom/sub thing.

	to make the assumption that queer folks do butch/femme as part
	of a blind buying into gender role stereotypes seems foolish.
	butch/femme elements of het relationships can be expressions
	of persoanl preference or style rather than evidence of hetero-
	patriarchal repression & limited roles; the same can be true
	in same-gender relationships.

	annemarie
	asuccop@u.washington.edu
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: nathan@kepler.uucp (25685-justus)
Subject: Re: alt.wicca, anyone?
Reply-To: nathan@kepler.UUCP (25685-justus,nathan d)
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 12:21:44 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.011753.5875@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> radzy@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (Tim Radzykewycz) writes:
>>In article <92202.160459J5J@psuvm.psu.edu>, J5J@psuvm.psu.edu (John A. Johnson) writes:
[	stuff deleted ]
>
>cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>> I just wonder if it will REALLY be wiccan, or just composed of all the
>> alt.pagan denizens who subscribed out of curiosity and just started
>> posting out of habit.  We could be looking at just Offspring of
>> alt.pagan, pt. II here.
>

[ more stuff deleted ]

We could modify the news software so that one is required to give
"Two perfect passwords" before reading the group :-)

Nathan 

-------------------------------
Nathan Justus
Bellcore
444 Hoes Lane, Piscataway NJ 
nathan@monolith.bellcore.com
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: alt.wicca, anyone?
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 22 Jul 92 00:03:53 GMT

In article <krikket.4957@meltdown.chi.il.us> krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick) writes:
>In article <92202.160459J5J@psuvm.psu.edu>, J5J@psuvm.psu.edu (John A. Johnson) writes:
>>Should not the name therefore be alt.pagan.wicca?
>>
>>I support the idea, although I'm not sure whether we have enough
>>wiccans desiring to post with such precise focus to justify the
>>subgroup.
>
>I third the motion...  And think that there are enough wiccans present to justify the newsgroup.
>
>(Hell, many people in the Chicagoland area that I know hwo are on the Net, view alt.pagan to be composed of the "StarHawk Wiccan" crowd...  :)  )

I just wonder if it will REALLY be wiccan, or just composed of all the
alt.pagan denizens who subscribed out of curiosity and just started
posting out of habit.  We could be looking at just Offspring of
alt.pagan, pt. II here.

Blessings,
Janis


Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: Men are Scum etc.
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 04:26:17 GMT

In article <12607.2A71BD45@ofa123.Fidonet.org> 
Paul.Harvey@ofa123.Fidonet.org (Paul Harvey) writes:
>--  
>
>Paul Harvey
>Internet: Paul.Harvey@ofa123.Fidonet.org
>Compuserve: >internet:Paul.Harvey@ofa123.Fidonet.org

OK, since I didn't write this would the person who posted this care to
explain what this means? Normally a post should contain a body and if
you're gonna post with the same name as me, we're gonna have to work out
something to keep ourselves straight. No big deal really, I'm me and I
post from intel and quack, so who are you?

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: alt.wicca, anyone?
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 00:09:29 GMT

idfraser@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca (Ian Fraser) writes:
: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:
: > 
: > disagree with.  Could we end up with the "correct" Wicca being the only one 
: > expressed?  
: > 
: > All in all, I think I would rather cope with the fundie Christians than the
: > fundie Witches.  And they do exist!
:  
: Actually, I think I'd find Fundiwitches easier to take. If nothing else, 
: they would provide insight into another aspect of the Craft, and another 
: approach to the Mother. (Besides, I have a real problem believing that 
: even the Fundiest of Witches would be even close toas offensive as your 
: basic, middle-of-the-road, Xian Fundy)

Oh, they are. Fundies of any sort are highly offensive. It does not matter
what there religion may be.

Bill

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: n8743494@rowlf.cc.wwu.edu (The Stranger)
Subject: Quote
Organization: Western Washington University
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 17:18:45 GMT

In article <qR4RoB6w165w@brewich.hou.tx.us> donal@brewich.hou.tx.us (Donal) writes:
>pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey) writes:
>
>> In article <1992Jul30.170107.21017@burrhus.harvard.edu> 
>> canders@isr.harvard.edu (Carl E. Anderson) writes:
>> >	There is a quote from somewhere which says: "Any sufficiently
>> >advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic".  And _vice_versa_ of
>> >course ;)
>> 
>> Who said that? I seem to remember an association with the Atomic bomb for
>> some reason. Was it Einstein or Oppenheimer? Don't tell me it was Sagan?
>
>I am NOT sure, but I think it was either Asimov or Clark.
>

It is Arthur C. Clark.

The Stranger
From: jblain@ac.dal.ca
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: soc.religion.wicca (Was: alt.wicca, anyone?)
Date: 24 Jul 92 12:02:40 -0300
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

In article <76438@ut-emx.uucp>, amadeus@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Susan Harwood Kaczmarczik) writes:
> 
> On the subject of creating an alt.wicca newsgroup, I would ask just
> what topic(s) do we want to see here?  Is the idea to be more specific
> than paganism?  To just include Wicca in all its various forms, but
> omit that which is not Wiccan?
> 
> The reason I am asking, of course, is that I don't consider myself
> Wiccan (although many of you might consider me as such if I told you
> what I did and how I believed).  Wicca to me is a much more specific
> word than Witchcraft; I consider myself a Witch but not a Wiccan.
> 
> So I guess I want to know whose definition of Wicca will be used inthe
> naming of this newsgroup, if indeed it gets off the ground.
> 
> -- 
> -----Susan Harwood Kaczmarczik-------------------------------*<:-)-------------
> "Queens never make bargains."  -- The Red Queen, _Through the Looking Glass_
> -----amadeus@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu--------------The University of Texas @Austin---

I'd favour a broad definition to include wicca/wicce and witch . . . I consider
myself a witch, and only use "wiccan" as a definition on rare occasions.
However I'd feel included. I do however share Susan's concern that this is
something that needs consideration . . .

On reflection, soc.religion.wicca would be better that alt/wicca. For a start,
it would reach more people, perhaps be treated more seriously, and in a 
moderated group we could describe/discuss practices without have to put up
with all the constant invasions, criticisms, attempts to convert us, etc . . .
-- 
Blessings, 

	Jenny		Jblain @ ac.dal.ca
__________________________________________________________________________
	I was in many shapes before I was released:
	.....
	I was a path, I was an eagle, I was a coracle in seas;
	I was a bubble in beer, I was a drop in a shower;
	I was a sword in hand, I was a shield in battle.
	I was a string in a harp enchanted nine years, in the water as foam;
	I was a spark in fire, I was wood in a bonfire;
	I am not one who does not sing; I have sung since I was small.

						[from The Book of Taliesin]
From: wolfe@wolves.uucp (G. Wolfe Woodbury)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Lithuania
Date: 25 Jul 92 05:59:24 GMT
Organization: Red Wolfe @ The Wolves Den
X-Md4-Signature: 00c89e5daee29ea581444a46451a3c40

ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:
>wolfe@wolves.uucp (G. Wolfe Woodbury) writes:
>
>>{Wolfe is Rolling on the floor in a fit of laughter....}
>>Whew.
>
>>Ethnically homogenous?  Are you sure that is what you meant to write?
>>Are you really trying to say that "Europeans" are a single culture, and
>>of a uniform ancestry?
>
>Wolfe, I think that the writer meant that each area of Europe is homogeneous.
>While it is not perfectly true, from an American point of view the homogen-
>eity of individual locales in Europe is nothing short of incomprehensible.
>What is incomprehensible often becomes legendary.

	I appreciate that small regions of geographic area can be and
are ethnically uniform.  (I've traveled just a wee bit here or there)

	The particular bit that hit me as so funny was talking about
Lithuania, and then someone mentions England and the Morris Dancers, and
then says that "Europe" is ethnically homogenous.  The map is not the
territory when it comes to actually dealing with the fact that we are
miniscule insects crawling on the surface of a planet that is so much
bigger than we are.    England to Lithuania is a distance equivalent to
about the distance between New York City and Atlanta Georgia.  I
certainly would not want to try and demonstrate the cultural similarities
between those two. :-)


				Wolfe
-- 
G. Wolfe Woodbury @ The Wolves Den UNIX, Durham NC         [use the maps!]
UUCP: ...dukcds!wolves!wolfe   ...duke!wolves!wolfe    <Standard disclaimers>
Domain: wolfe%wolves@cs.duke.edu    wolfe@cds.duke.edu
    Above all, we celebrate.   Celebrate the Circle Statement of Purpose
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Subject: More Crone Images (was re: stereotypes)
Reply-To: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Organization: LaserMaster Technologies, Minneapolis, MN
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 22:24:55 GMT

Janis Maria Cortese says (in a different thread -- my how quickly these
threads frey!);

>"The Crone usually symbolized death; look up Kali."

  And don't forget the sacred Mother Margret (Margret Hamilton), who
Takes That Which Is Not Offered (the coffee you spilled was a WARNING),
and who Really Likes Red Slippers under the tree at Yule.

  Up here in the nippy north we have another Goddess of Supreme Suffering
and Icky Things called Mother Berkta.  Mother Berkta brings you what
you DESERVE for Yule, and TAKES IT AWAY at Imbolc if you've not
learned your lesson!  If you don't eat potato cakes on her birthday, She'll
come at night, cut your stomach open, stuff it full of straw, and sew you back
up with an anchor chain.  Mother Berkta makes it snow, and rides a randy
old billy goat (Knasher), who is Her Son (and, rumor has it, Her lover).

  Blessed be,  Ciaran.


Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: aaldrich@geppetto.encore.com (Al Aldrich)
Subject: Re: a neat-looking star I saw recently
Organization: Encore Computer Corp.
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 12:21:14 GMT

elle@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Ellen Keyne Seebacher) writes:

>Frank.Perricone@f814.n355.z1.therose.pdx.com (Frank Perricone) writes:
>>>[Janis asks about herbs for menstrual cramps]
>>I've heard chewing on a small twig from a willow tree will help.

>Sure, if you want to spend an outrageous amount of time and effort
>obtaining aspirin:  willow bark is the "natural" source of salicylates
>now synthesized as plain, ordinary aspirin tablets.

What `enormous' time and effort..if you have a willow tree close by,
you just break off a twig and cheww on it for awhile..

/al

-- 
Al Aldrich 		  | Fax: 797-5926	| `..give peas a chance..'
Ph: 305-797-2335	  |Product Operations	|    (Dinosaurs)
Inet: aaldrich@encore.com |Logistics Mgr.	|
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Who cares
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 22 Jul 92 22:26:18 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.163150.23481@linus.mitre.org> heimberg@pacific.mitre.org (Jeff Heimberger) writes:
>
>In article <ZLiBoB7w164w@ailanth.UUCP> ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy) writes:
>
>>[Lots of really nasty personal attacks and name-calling deleted...]
>
>Gee, Ailsa, hit a raw nerve, didn't I?

Oh, ailsa, aren't you just eaten up inside by attacking tis man for no
reason at all -- attacking this good, sweet, gentle, and understanding
man?  Aren't you proud to have him pat you on the head?

Take your fake psychology degree, Jeff, roll it into a nice tight
cylinder, and shove it where the sun don't shine.  How dare you react
like Mr. Superior after saying something so damned downright
inflammatory.  In other words, "If I kick you in the teeth and you get
angry, it's your fault."

>I'm truly sorry that you can't address the issues without attacking me
>personally or name-calling.  That's the problem -- there is generally
>little reasoned discussion about the issues, the solutions, etc.
>People just square off, start name calling, get into throwing rocks,
>and finally a riot ensues.

Especially if someone starts it all by being such a thundering dickhead
as you.  YOu ask why gays aren't pronmoting straight rights with a
straight face and then pull back and act as if poor martyr you has been
injured without cause?  Maybe you'd better get another brain cell. 

>If you'd care to talk about this in a reasonable manner, please respond
>again.  I refuse to add flames to your fire.

Oh, isn't he just the most wonderful thing.  He starts off by calling
for the formation of a NAAWP, then asks everyone else to be reasonable.

Why, you poor misunderstood thing.

>Regards,

I doubt it . . .

>Jeff H...

Janis
From: klotz@lclark.edu (Gretchen Klotz)
Subject: Re: Oppression is Oppression is Oppression...
Organization: Lewis & Clark College, Portland OR
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 19:20:43 GMT


Hi again -

Just want to add classism explicitly to the list of isms.  I promised
myself I wouldn't refer to anyone's earlier posts, but I can't help
comparing the outrageous statement that poor people are responsible for
overpopulation to the ridiculous view that the spotted owl is responsible
for unemployment of thousands of timber workers in the Pacific Northwest. 
Bunk to both!  Please look at the bigger picture.  It's neither simple nor
pretty. 

BB,

- Gretchen
-- 
Gretchen Klotz					       Computing Services 
klotz@lclark.edu				    Lewis & Clark College
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: >suggestion<
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 19:56:18 GMT

lilleyc@cs.man.ac.uk (Chris Lilley) writes:


>But I would hesitate to tell any of them that they couldnt refer to their
>paganisnm as a religion, especially on the grounds that they lived it with
>heart rather than just dusting it off on sundays for a bit.

Chris, my objection wasn't to people calling themselves P/pagan as their
religious designation.  I got upset when people claimed that all of P/paganism
was *one* religion, and that I was part of it.  No one has the right to tell me
that Wicca is subsumed in this monolithic "Paganism".  They can call their
beliefs anything they want, but leave me and mine out of it, thank you very
much.

This does not mean that I dislike people of other religions, or the religions
themselves.  I love Susan H. dearly, and I recognise that she has found the
right religion for her, and I have found the right religion(s) for me, and
that we each respect the other's religion *as* the other's religion.


Does this make sense, folks?

              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
                               Br'anArthur

Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Subject: Re: JANIS IS RIGHT!
Followup-To: alt.pagan
Originator: lunde@casbah.acns.nwu.edu
Reply-To: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Organization: Ministry of Silly Walks
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 19:01:05 GMT

In article <1992Jul23.124227.1@vax1.umkc.edu> dwlogsdon@vax1.umkc.edu writes:
>Okay, I'll admit it: I'm one of those people who supported Janis through the
>E-MAIL, but didn't publicly post anything!
>
>I just returned to the net, after a few days, to find LOTS of people (nearly,
> if not ALL male) blasting her rather intensely.
>
>So here goes:
>
>JANIS IS RIGHT!
>
I'll second this -- I've been reading alt.pagan intermittently lately, and 
I saw Janis's initial posting, and thought it well stated, reasonable and
unremarkable. 

I came back later to find the flame fest in progress. I've since been feeling
I should follow-up to express some support, and I didn't see a very good place
to do it.

There are plenty of things in the state of sexual politics today to be pissed
about and it seems like some men took what I would see as justified
indignation at the general condition of society as a personal attack.

It helps keep me honest to hear things like Janis has been saying.

-- 
 Albert Lunde         | Interfaith  |     *Y*Y*      "A branch on the
 Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu |  Bisexual   |      *Y*        tree of life"
 alunde@nuacvm.bitnet |  Feminist   |.......|.........................
From: krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: >suggestion<
Date: 20 Jul 92 10:56:18 GMT
Organization: The Meltdown - A Team Star BBS

In article <1992Jul20.165106.1@fnalno.fnal.gov>, holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov
(Daniel B. Holzman) writes:
>In article <1992Jul16.141715.15844@ddsw1.mcs.com>, eshin@ddsw1.mcs.com 
>(Eshin-Fun) writes:
>> I believe that Ciaran understands this. But her point is that then if we are
>> to capitilize Christian, why not Pagan?
>
>Because there are those who self-identify as Christian, and not as a member of
>any of the sub-groups that are collectively Christianity.  Further, any two
>Christians can be said to be practising the same religion, but this is not true
>of any two pagans.  The term Christian is more analogous to Wiccan or Santero,
>rather than to Pagan.

*Light Sarcasm Mode ON*  (Should be noted by all on-lookers.  Dan, just take
it as if we were BSing anywhere else...)

Oh High Priest of mine,

*Okay, maybe it's not that light, but it's intended in good fun between friends*

        I humbly beg to differ with the opnion you stated.  For I find that
there are many Pagans out there who identify themselves as "Pagan" as opposed
to "Wicca", "Voodoun", or even "Santero" or any other of the myriad sub-catagories that can be found under "Pagan".  For many people, even those
who belong to "The Church of the Literate" [For all on-lookers, this is a
legal pagan group that I helped set up.  We used "Church" to make the process
simpiler for us...  ULC, ya' know?] don't directly identify with any of the
sub-catagories because they are often learning paganism and magical studies
through trial and error, using and blending many of the different
sub-catagories of Paganism, and having fun at it at the same time.

        How else, but as a "Pagan" would you identify someone who blends
"Wiccan Formula Magic" (tm) with "Neo-Shamanism" [I refuse to call it Shamanism, for the Amer. Inds would be appalled at it!] a good healthy dose of a few obscure pagan traditions [IE: Merlanic], a good quanitity of origional
material, and a few other oddities thrown in.  The result would NOT be
anything that fits into any of the sub-catagories, but is still Pagan,
none-the-less.

        Therefore, I question your devine (snigger) decision, and would ask
that you reconsider.

A member of your Grove,

Dr. Rev. Officer Douglas L. Krick, DD, MsD, RhD
(The Chruch Police????)

"Yes I'll ordain anyone at anytime, legal anywhere within the US for no-charge
what-so-ever!  No questions asked!"

*Sarcasm Mode off - We now return you to your regularly scheduled Net
personality.  Thank you.*

Krikket               ! krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us ! USnail:3 Danada Square E.
a.k.a Doug Krick      ! Team Star Charter Member   !        Suite 246
Data ph# 708/665-9732 ! #include<std.disclaimers>  !        Wheaton, Il 60187

 'If you are what you eat, then I'm Dead Meat'  -- Timbuk 3 "Grand 'ol Party"
            
Newsgroups: alt.pagan