From: moore@uhibpd.phys.uh.edu (Lorra L. Moore)
Newsgroups: houston.general,tx.politics,rice.politics
Subject: Re: Anti-choice vs. Pro-abortion (was Re: Houston Defending Choice Coalition needs you)
Date: 21 Aug 1992 14:22:03 GMT
Followup-To: talk.abortion
Distribution: tx
Organization: /etc/organization

In article <exuptr.369.714352967@exu.ericsson.se> exuptr@exu.ericsson.se (Patrick Taylor) writes:
>In article <1992Aug20.141652.1999@menudo.uh.edu> moore@uhibpd.phys.uh.edu (Lorra L. Moore) writes:
>
>>oh, I know... and accidents never happen.  Birth control works 100% of
>>the time.  Isn't that a nice fantasy to live under.  Ever been inside an
>>abortion clinic when you weren't preaching or carrying a bomb?  
>
>Ever look past your prejudice when you weren't insulting?

Ever made a decision for yourself and stopped trying to force it on
others?

>To reply to your point, of course accidents happen.  Now tell me for real 
>that most abortions occur because of _real_ accidents where birth control 
>was being used with a good degree of diligence.

and so what if it wasn't?  The point is that if birth control wasn't
being used, then the pregnant person obviously isn't responsible enough
to make the kinds of decisions it takes to have and raise a child.  If
birth control was being used, not only is there the high probability of
birth defects (ie, even if it is put up for adoption, it will sit in an
orphanage for the rest of its life, this is of course, hoping it isn't
brain dead) but the woman OBVIOUSLY didn't want to have a child.  What
part of this are you missing?

>
>>Ever
>>listened to the 16 and year old women that are tearing themselves apart
>>because, even though they were on birth control, they still are finding
>>themselves faced with this decision?  
>
>No, but I hope to, one day.

you hope to?  It isn't a pleasant experience, I have no idea why you
would hope to?

>
>>I have been inside one, and
>             ^^^^^^^^^^
>
>You mean an abortion clinic, I take it.  I have, too.  Not to disrupt, but 
>to listen.  Most were mid twenties, had a regular boyfriend, took the pill 
>most of the time...

even you agree that these children are OBVIOUSLY going to be unwanted.
Do you think this world needs MORE unwanted children?

>>it is so silly when you actually step back and look at it), this young
>>lady was obviously to irresponsible to use birth control, so, what do
>>the pro-lifers want to do? 
>>Punish her for her actions by saddling her
>>with a baby for the next 18 years.  
>
>Oh is _that_ what WE are trying to do?

what are you trying to do?  If you don't want to have an abortion, then
don't have one.  Why is that so hard?

>You have children?

no, I was responsible enough to realize, the one time I did get
pregnant while taking birth control, that both my child and I would
suffer behind it and that I would, when I was ready to have children,
plan on them and have them responsibly and give them the best life
I was capable of giving them.  

Actually, I plan on adopting.  Since there are so many unwanted children
out there, I hope to give at least one of them a home.  A happy home.
And it won't be some cute little scarce happy white baby either.  It
will be a child that needs a happy home because it was brought into this
world by someone that thought they were doing the 'right thing' and
brought it to term.  So, I am going to do what little I can do to heal
the disease that the pro-lifers spend their time contributing to.  

Have you adopted any black children who had crackhead mothers?

[pointed sarcasm and insults to follow... just a warning]

Some times it is easier to resort to insults and sarcasm simply to
point out how silly the argument sounds.

>>Oh, I am sure, over night, she will
>>find enough responsibility in her soul to care for this child and
>>herself.... NOT.  
>
>Believe it or not, it has actually happened.  Do you know that some girls

once.. .twice... hallelujah!!! call God!

>that get pregnant at 16 actually later end up marrying some nice guy that 
>was not the father of their child?  Some others get help from relatives, or 

oh.. and a man came in and made it all right.  How... patriarchal of
you.

[insults and sarcasm off... but no guarantees that they won't start
again]

>>Do pro-lifers simply not care for the quality of life
>>these children are going to have to endure?  
>
>Damn right we care, and we're going to do something about it.

what?? what are you doing? Please, tell me what solutions you have
implemented (other than violent demonstrations at abortion clinics).
Have you thought about the idea that if what you were doing was really
effective and a solution then there wouldn't be waiting lines at
abortion clinics... there would be lines at what ever facilities you set
up.  Set them up... let the lines come to you.. and then, there won't be
any more abortion clinics because they won't be able to stay open.
Please, do this.  Come up with a solution that people can CHOOSE over
abortion (there is that word again... such a nice word.... 'choice'..
what a concent)

>>Do they simply not think
>>about it at all and live in this fantasy that they are doing some
>>greater good?  
>
>Your prejudice is showing again :-)

you didn't answer the question.  It wasn't rhetorical.  I really don't
understand what pro-lifers think they are doing.

>>I have an idea.  Before you try to make abortions illegal, why don't you
>>put these palatable, living solutions into place?  
>
>Never said I was going to try and make them illegal, although I might.  But 
>this is not what pro-life is about.  It is about working the situation for 

really?  What is pro-life about?  Have you mentioned this to all the
pro-lifers marching on Washington trying to make abortions illegal? or
did you just miss the boat and not get that handout?

Please... let's please live in the here and now for a minute.  If
pro-lifers weren't trying to make abortions illegal, then pro-choicers
wouldn't have any reason for existance simply because our freedom of
choice wouldn't be threatened.

>the best of all, including the unborn.  Clearly any solution that left him/
>her dead or uncared for is not good.  We simply have to stop settling for 
>whatever we consider the lesser of two evils, because the two sides cannot 
>agree on that.  The only thing we can ever seem to agree on is what is the 
>very best.  SO let's get on with it.

what is the very best?  That young irresponsible people don't get
pregnant?  That birth control works one hundred percent of the time?
That all pregnancies are planned on and prepared for?  How do you
propose we get on with it?  You have a solution to this problem?  Hell,
I'll go with you.  Work side by side.  Let's do it.
>
>>Then, as an after the
>>fact, you can say 'But see, there are these other solutions that really
>>work really well and have for years, so now we can do away with
>>abortions because it really is for the greater good.'... But no,
>>pro-lifers aren't interested in solutions... they are interested in
>>domination and forcing their opinions, values, and religious beliefs on
>>others.  
>
>Just prejudice <blort>.

oh... when confronted with what it looks like on this side, it is just
prejudice.  If that isn't what you are about, then what is it?  If you
believe that abortions are wrong.. then don't have them.  What seems to
be the problem here?

>>>Just think...the mother conceived it so that it could suffer in the hands of 
>>>a physician or in a dumpster, alone...what wonderful choices.
>
>>well, considering you have no evidence that an unborn baby is sentient
>>at all during the first two stages of pregnancy and I have more than
>>overwhelming evidence that a child is sentient after birth, I personally
>>would choose that we not let it suffer a slow miserable death when we
>>are sure that it can feel every minute of it.  
>
>Considering you don't KNOW either you are guessing around with what may be 
>someone's life instead of advocating a real solution yourself.

what do you think a real solution is?  I have one.  Sterilize everyone
and sell the anecdote.  This is a solution.  Want to help me implement
it? 

Do you really think that people are just going to stop having sex unless
they are planning on having a child?  Do you really think that birth
control is going to work all the time?  Do you really think that
miraculously there are going to be homes for thousands of children of
minority drug users?

Tell me what your solutions are?  Please.  I would love to hear them.  I
haven't heard any that were based on reality.  That actually dealt with
the long term.  

>>Man, you are really sadistic.
>
>Oh really?  It's sadistic of me to suggest that neither death is ok, while 
>you justify abortion based on unknowns?

you are basing no abortions based on the same unknowns.  I am justifying
abortions based on the CHANCE to live a happy life.

>You're so caught up in the fight you don't know what you're fighting.

and you sir are living in a glass house.

I know exactly what I am fighting.
I am fighting poverty and despair.  Homelessness. Over population. High
taxation.  Unemployment.  Child abuse.  Drug Abuse. 
And a hoard of others.  I am simply trying to stop the problem at its
inception.  

Listen to the children that were born into families that didn't want
them.  That weren't ready to have them.  Listen to them talk about the
physical and emotional abuse they received because their parents blame
them for ruining their lives.  Please, stop and think about the children
that you are bringing into this world and have some compassion.  Give
them a chance to be happy.  You are almost guaranteeing that they will
be miserable. The odds aren't in their favor.  With as hard as it is in
this world when you do have a loving family and you are planned for, it
is miserable when you have poverty, loneliness, drug usage,
homelessness, all this working against you as well.  Please, stop
thinking about the unborn child long enough to think about the one you
bring into this world.  And don't patronize me with 'well, one in a
million turns out okay'.... I don't like those odds.

Lorra
Newsgroups: houston.general