HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mlelstv@specklec.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de (Michael van Elst)
Subject: Re: CBM mention on 12/11/92 Computer Chronicles
Organization: Max-Planck-Institut f"ur Radioastronomie
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 00:22:48 GMT

In <1992Dec22.153227.19928@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> jerry@msi.com (Jerry Shekhel) writes:
>I disagree.  Why is it, then, that Amiga programs *don't* have consistent
>user interfaces?

Plain and simple: it wasn't enforced. Instead people were told to be 'creative'.

>IMHO, screens are useful on the Amiga for two reasons.
>First, they are a speed optimization, which isn't necesary on systems with
>decent GUI performance.  Second, some applications need to work at certain
>screen resolutions, and this wouldn't be the case if the Amiga had DIG.

I can't agree. Screens are good for 2 reasons:

They allow windows to be grouped together to a virtual desktop. Several GUIs copy
this f.e. HP VUE or Xrooms. Screens also extend the screen space which is needed
on _small_ displays.

With screens an application can _choose_ certain screen resolutions. Without
it is limited to the single display mode which therefore has to offer the
highest possible resolutions. Compared to simply switching the display mode
this is more flexible. Of course this is an optimization too.


Regards,
-- 
Michael van Elst
UUCP:     universe!local-cluster!milky-way!sol!earth!uunet!unido!mpirbn!p554mve
Internet: p554mve@mpirbn.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de
                                "A potential Snark may lurk in every tree."
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: jerry@msi.com (Jerry Shekhel)
Subject: Re: Future Amiga chipsets
Organization: Molecular Simulations, Inc.
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 17:11:01 GMT
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Andy Finkel (andy@cbmvax.commodore.com) wrote:
:
: Basically, BY DESIGN, the OS/2 system is an open one.  The memory protection
: and file system protection is not designed to be a defense against
: virus and virus like programs.  Nor does it act like one.  The OS/2
: protections are instead entirely appropriate for a single user system;
: they protect against errant programs accidently overwriting the data
: space of another process.
:

I believe your points are valid.  On the other hand, have you seen many PC
viruses?  Many of them are just designed to be annoying; they mess up the
display and interfere with your work.  They play with the hardware.  That
type of virus would be difficult to implement under OS/2, although destructive
viruses could certainly be created.

:
: You've got me curious now;  have you had much OS/2 programming experience ?
: What sort of programming do you do (application or system level) and with
: what OS ?   This isn't meant to be rude (and I apologize in advance if
: it comes off that way) but I'd kind of like to know what basis you use for
: the positions you forcefully advance.
:

My OS/2 programming experience is mostly with application-level software using
the Presentation Manager, but I've read a lot about OS/2 design.

:
: andy finkel		andy@cbmvax.commodore.com
:
--
+-------------------+----------------------------+---------------------------+
| JERRY J. SHEKHEL  | Molecular Simulations Inc. | Time just fades the pages |
| Drummers do it... |     Burlington, MA USA     | in my book of memories.   |
|    ... In rhythm! |        jerry@msi.com       |         -- Guns N' Roses  |
+-------------------+----------------------------+---------------------------+
From: das9674@usl.edu (Stephenson Daniel A)
Subject: Re: Don't let the Amiga Die (Part II)!!!
Organization: University of Southwestern Louisiana
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1992 14:34:54 GMT

In article <72384@cup.portal.com> Jim-Guy@cup.portal.com (James Lawrence Blastic) writes:
>and monitors sell at all?  I remember when a computer came out that had
>a color monitor as standard, stereo sound and speach synthesis built in, 
>a multitasking  operating system, and 256K of RAM (expandable to 512K internally)
> yet could still multitask applications with only 256K.  The savvy 'populous' said:

You are terribly mistaken if you think an Amiga with 512K, much 
less 512k,  can multitask useful apps.  Terribly mistaken.

>"This must be a new toy game machine out to replace the fading Atari."
>"It certainly has no use in the REAL computing world."  "Who needs to run more
>than one thing at a time?"  "Who needs color?"  "Who needs sound?"  "Who needs 
>speech synthesis?" "Who needs animation, 3D graphics, etc.?"

Well, a tthe time nobody wanted an Amiga because it didn't DO any of the
things businesses wanted.  Hasn't this fact been belabored enough?

>-I know- tis isn't advocasy..but I couldn't resist.  WP is a dog.. porting it to
>the amiga is like porting MS-DOS to the Amiga.  Really.. we must avoid these
>regressive tendencies and support our Amiga developers so they don't get stolen
>by MS, but continue to bring newer, better and more powerful applications to 
>the Amiga, a computer worth too much to be used just a fancy electric
>typewriter.

And the extreme popularity of this fancy electric typewriter is what gets us
all the great software Amigas cannot get.  Amigas are game machines?  Not
the games *I* play.  Check my .sig.

>Having been in the clone business and the consulting business I realize that
>most computers installed in businesses are used just for running Word Perfect.
>WHAT A WASTE!

As long as there are Amigans like you, they won't be any acceptance of Amigas.
As soon as some people *really* advocate the Amiga and try to get it to
be 'acceptable' to a plurality, people like you yell in their face
'oh my, but we're _special_ people, with a _special_ computer, we don't want
mainstream applications vendors, we want to be _different_.'

Gack.

>JimGuy
--
Dan Stephenson                                         das9674@usl.edu  
"Yes Dan, I have heard of Ultima Underworld.  From my point of view it
 appears to be a rather large stick which you seem to be using to beat
 everbody in this group with." -Mark Steyn, comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: Aric.Caley@ofa123.fidonet.org
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Don't let the Amiga
X-Sender: newtout 0.05 Dec 30 1992
Date: 29 Dec 92  23:20:00

> Organization: Molecular Simulations, Inc.
> From: jerry@msi.com (Jerry Shekhel)
> Message-ID: <1992Dec29.160521.4069@sol.ctr.columbia.edu>
> Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
>
> John Bickers (jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz) wrote:
> :
> : > So is your claim that a 512K Amiga can run "current feature level"
> : > applications.  So my analogy holds perfectly, while you're just whining.
> :
> :     Absurd. A 512KB Amiga can and does run such applications.
> :
>
> Right.  You think a 512KB Amiga (with no virtual memory, of course), could
> ever run something like Word?  FrameMaker?  Quicken?  Improv?  Paradox?
> Falcon 3?  Ultima Underworld?  Think again, denizen.

Of course not.  But it CAN run lots of other things that are quite usefull.

Of  course,  Commodore doesn't even MAKE any Amigas anymore with only 512K.
1  meg  is the absolute lowest-end minimum (A600) and 2 or more megs is the
new standard (A1200 - 2MB, A4000 - 6MB).

 -Dances With Coyotes - World's slowest programer-Given that God is infinate-
 -AKA Dances V2.0, Coyote, Critter, Magnet, Major-and  that  the universe is-
 -- Former Net-Lurker - YES, an AMIGA godammit! --also  infinate,  would you-
 --- Still limping along with AmigaOS 1.3  :(  ---like a toasted  tea  cake?-


--- Maximus 2.01wb
Xref: sparky comp.sys.amiga.advocacy:32340 comp.sys.amiga.misc:19199
From: barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N. Barrett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.misc
Subject: Re: Byte A4000/A3000T-040 Review
Date: 29 Dec 92 21:06:31 GMT
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA

In article <1992Dec29.072401.6373@desire.wright.edu> fheitkamp@desire.wright.edu writes:
>	Commodore is just trying to protect their butts from ignorant
>	( electronically speaking ) users who blow up their machine and
>	try to get it fixed under warranty.  Knowlegeable and careful
>	users like most of us here wouldn't fit that catagory.
>
>	I can see it's a real problem for those who bought their machine
>	mail order with the dealers >50 miles away.  With a dealer nearby
>	you could collect all your expansion boards and have them put in in
>	one shot.  Most dealers would probably charge $30 or so to do it.
>
>	I don't see how this can be resolved without Commodore losing
>	protection and/or the user getting screwed, other than if inserting
>	legitimate expansion board causes the computer to fry, then 
>	someone would have to make a determination on whose fault it was.
>	Presumably, if a dealer did the installation and thought it was 
>	proper then they would stand behind it.
>
>	Instead of complaining, think of a solution, that would be
>	acceptable to all.

   I can think of one right off the bat.  Commodore's problem is that the bulk
of their sales are to these electronically-ignorant individuals who use their
computers as home computers.  Even the bulk of A3000 and A4000 sales are to
people who use them as home computers.  I would even bet that the majority of
Commodore's Amiga UNIX systems went to individuals who used them as home
computers.

   Commodore needs to sell far more systems to corporations and educational
institutions, that would be responsible with the systems.  Apple and Compaq
don't have the problems that Commodore has, because the bulk of their sales
are to companies and institutions that a responsible with in-warantee systems,
and don't attempt to have the manufacturer pay for botched work.  This dilutes
any losses from sales of systems to individuals who do try to get the 
manufacturer to pay for botched upgrades.

---
| Marc Barrett -MB-  |  email: barrett@iastate.edu
--------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: jerry@msi.com (Jerry Shekhel)
Subject: Re: CBM mention on 12/11/92 Computer Chronicles
Organization: Molecular Simulations, Inc.
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 20:48:02 GMT
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John Bickers (jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz) wrote:
:
: > Nope, it's an OS.  It does not "sit on top of DOS"; it replaces everything
: > that DOS provides in terms of device management, memory management, etc.  It
:
:     Can you install Windows without DOS?
:

No; does it matter?

Really, John, I don't understand why you're trying to bring this discussion
full-circle.

:
: *** John Bickers, TAP.                   jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz ***
:
--
+-------------------+----------------------------+---------------------------+
| JERRY J. SHEKHEL  | Molecular Simulations Inc. | Time just fades the pages |
| Drummers do it... |     Burlington, MA USA     | in my book of memories.   |
|    ... In rhythm! |        jerry@msi.com       |         -- Guns N' Roses  |
+-------------------+----------------------------+---------------------------+
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: das9674@usl.edu (Stephenson Daniel A)
Subject: Re: Don't let the Amiga Die (Part II)!!!
Organization: University of Southwestern Louisiana
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 01:41:41 GMT

In article <jbickers.0lzw@templar.actrix.gen.nz> jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz (John Bickers) writes:
>Quoted from <1992Dec22.075616.4682@usl.edu> by das9674@usl.edu (Stephenson Daniel A):
>
>> Woo woo.  Besides, Jimmy, many PCs have dual floppies *anyway*, so 
>> your point is doubly-moot.
>
>    Yeah, one 3.5" and one 5.25". Har har har!

Yes, now that large harddrives bursting with fantastic software are common
on any modern PC, having different floppy drive sizes is merely a 
convenience.  Booting from, or using floppies is only done to install
new OSes or 'fixing' HD problems.  Long gone are the days that PC relied 
on floppy drives to operate, verily: in those days of old, they too
had two same-size floppy drives.

>*** John Bickers, TAP.                   jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz ***
--
Dan Stephenson                                         das9674@usl.edu  
"Yes Dan, I have heard of Ultima Underworld.  From my point of view it
 appears to be a rather large stick which you seem to be using to beat
 everbody in this group with." -Mark Steyn, comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Don't let the Amiga Die (Part II)!!!
From: jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz (John Bickers)
Date: 1 Jan 93 13:35:15 PST
Organization: TAP

Quoted from <1992Dec29.160521.4069@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> by jerry@msi.com (Jerry Shekhel):
> John Bickers (jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz) wrote:

> : > So is your claim that a 512K Amiga can run "current feature level"
> : > applications.  So my analogy holds perfectly, while you're just whining.
> :
> :     Absurd. A 512KB Amiga can and does run such applications.

> Right.  You think a 512KB Amiga (with no virtual memory, of course), could
> ever run something like Word?  FrameMaker?  Quicken?  Improv?  Paradox?
> Falcon 3?  Ultima Underworld?  Think again, denizen.

    VLT, CEDPro, DPaint IV, and the long list of development tools and
    games designed to run on standard Amiga 500s. All current
    software. Very few of the applications I use every day on my Amiga
    would not also run on a 512K A500.

> | JERRY J. SHEKHEL  | Molecular Simulations Inc. | Time just fades the pages |
--
*** John Bickers, TAP.                   jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz ***
***    "Radioactivity - It's in the air, for you and me" - Kraftwerk    ***
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: mlelstv@specklec.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de (Michael van Elst)
Subject: Re: Dan got the Amiga 1000!
Organization: Max-Planck-Institut f"ur Radioastronomie
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1992 14:46:38 GMT

In <Bzw88n.898@agora.rain.com> robart@agora.rain.com (Joe Bob) writes:
>  Actually you could do this with 1.2 or 1.3, which is probably what he
>is running on that old A1000.  Just hold down the left Amiga key and
>either the M or N keys and drag the window with the mouse.
>  Just make sure you aren't doing anything else important at the same time.

He should make sure that he doesn't do _anything_ after that :) What you
describe is a bug in Intuition 1.2/1.3 that may trash innocent memory and
often causes subtile crashes.

Regards,
-- 
Michael van Elst
UUCP:     universe!local-cluster!milky-way!sol!earth!uunet!unido!mpirbn!p554mve
Internet: p554mve@mpirbn.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de
                                "A potential Snark may lurk in every tree."
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: jerry@msi.com (Jerry Shekhel)
Subject: Re: CBM mention on 12/11/92 Computer Chronicles
Organization: Molecular Simulations, Inc.
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 15:17:21 GMT
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X-Posted-From: hemi.msi.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

John Bickers (jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz) wrote:
:
: > Don't forget the millions of people who have bought Amigas :-)  It must be
: > fun for you to sit in front of your screen and pretend to be an expert in
: > everything from computers to popular music.  Obviously, you've carried the
:
:     He isn't pretending to be an expert at anything. The only one here
:     pretending to be an expert is you.
:

I beg to differ.  I'm not the one writing articles denouncing everything
from Intel CPUs to Madonna.

:
:     So why did you say, "fortunately, there are millions of people",
:     as if that meant something? Sounds to me like you are doing a
:     bit of double-talk on this one. Again.
:

Actually, I believe it *is* fortunate.  If everyone thought like you, they'd
all buy the same machine, and the industry would stagnate.  As bad as you may
think Windows is, it did force Commodore to polish the WB and start thinking
about DIG/VM.

:
:     Then why did you attack my statement about the quality of Windows
:     as an OS?
:

Because we were having a factual discussion, and you decided to use
your opinions as if they were fact:

	"Name one worthwhile PC OS with a consistent user interface."
	"Windows."
	"That's not a worthwhile PC OS."

See what I mean?

:
: *** John Bickers, TAP.                   jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz ***
:
--
+-------------------+----------------------------+---------------------------+
| JERRY J. SHEKHEL  | Molecular Simulations Inc. | Time just fades the pages |
| Drummers do it... |     Burlington, MA USA     | in my book of memories.   |
|    ... In rhythm! |        jerry@msi.com       |         -- Guns N' Roses  |
+-------------------+----------------------------+---------------------------+
From: barrett@astro.cs.umass.edu (Daniel Barrett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: The 'Screens' debate:
Date: 24 Dec 92 02:33:48 GMT
Reply-To: barrett@astro.cs.umass.edu (Daniel Barrett)
Organization: BLAZEMONGER INCORPORATED

In article <1992Dec24.015546.22863@usl.edu> das9674@usl.edu (Stephenson Daniel A) writes:
>It is a nice thing to pull down the WorkBench, and see a largely differnt
>resolutions/colors scheme, but I don't see how it is terribly useful....
[Example using 16-color Workbench and 256-color art program on 2 screens]
>NOW: is this better than running a hires, 256-color WB *anyway* and then
>running the art program, and *iconizing* the art program to get back to
>the WB?

	Not necessarily "better" -- just different.

	The 16-color Workbench will do its window updates about 4 times
faster than a 256-color Workbench, so that's one advantage.

	A great advantage of multiple screens, in my opinion, is that they
prevent the Workbench from getting too crowded.  If you used iconizing
instead, the *icons* themselves can get blocked by windows, making it
inconvenient to find and click on them.  No such problem with screens: a
keypress or 2 mouseclicks will bring any screen to the front for you.  Mac's
Multifinder makes a menu which can't get hidden like icons can; that's
another approach.

>Or having it truly 'windowed' on the 256-color WB and simply 
>DRAG that windows it is in 'off' side of the screen into virtual-WB
>space?

	Then the WB gets too crowded when there are lots of windows.

	In any case, some of the newer application programs will give you
the option of running on the Workbench *or* a custom screen, so the user can
choose.  Best of both worlds.

>So while 'screens' are in fact pretty nice, they do not seem to be
>the savior of Amigas like so many people on this group say they are.

	I don't know that "so many people" (e.g., more than 10) are
calling multiple screens the "savior of Amigas."  I thought that title
belonged to Marc Barrett. :-)  But they are definitely useful.

	Use them regularly for a few weeks and see if you change your mind.

                                                        Dan

 //////////////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
| Dan Barrett -- Dept of Computer Science, Lederle Graduate Research Center |
| University of Massachusetts, Amherst, MA  01003  --  barrett@cs.umass.edu |
 \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////////////////////////////////////
Xref: sparky comp.sys.amiga.advocacy:32446 comp.sys.amiga.misc:19268
From: fheitkamp@desire.wright.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy,comp.sys.amiga.misc
Subject: Re: Byte A4000/A3000T-040 Review
Date: 31 Dec 92 13:57:49 EST
Organization:  Wright State University 

In article <72613@cup.portal.com>, TomK@cup.portal.com (Tom R Krotchko) writes:
>>Don't laugh too hard.  Some new-car warranties require that you take your
>>car to the dealership for an oil-change.  The difference, of course, is that
>>the oil change itself is included in these warranties.
> 
> That's no longer true; there was either a court decision or a law passed
> to prevent manufacturers from disallowing warrenty claims because service
> wasn't done at the dealer.
> 
> However, the ruling/law is probably very specific in dealing with
> automobiles, so I don't know if ther is any precedent here.
> 
> Besides (AND EVERYONE PLEASE READ THIS), despite what was said in
> BYTE and on this newsgroup, here's what the 4000 manual actually says
> in regards to installation of cards:
> 
> "Installation of internal options should be performed by an authorized
> Commodore dealer/service center or by a knowledgeable technicians.
> Commodore will not be liable for any damages or injuries caused by
> improper installation of expansion equipment".
> 
> So everybody seems to be talking without reading the book. The
> book DOES NOT mention the warrenty being voided. The book DOES NOT
> mention ONLY an authorized dealer must do the service. The book
> DOES say that if you don't know what you're doing and screw up the
> computer its your problem.

	I'll let you know what happens after my A4000 blows up from
	having a backwards fan.  I stuck in my A2286 bridgeboard, and
	another hard drive, and my internal modem myself.  So far all
	is working perfectly but when the computer over heats and dies
	it will probably be myfault because a dealer didn't install
	the stuff.

> 
> TomK@cup.portal.com
> Tom Krotchko
Fred Heitkamp,  ** Not an organization.  My opinions only **
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N. Barrett)
Subject: Re: Does reading this group make you depressed? The story of a victim.
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 20:55:32 GMT

In article <58064@dime.cs.umass.edu> barrett@astro.cs.umass.edu (Daniel Barrett) writes:
>In article <28DEC199201490807@cs.umass.edu> atkin@cs.umass.edu (Marc Atkin) writes:
>
>>c) The Usenet newsgroups spread a lot more "gloom and doom" than is probably
>>   justified. The Amiga is doing very well in large parts of Europe. You can
>>   walk in to any bookstore in Germany or the UK and see a dozen Amiga maga-
>>   zines in the shelves (it is very uplifting - you should try it).
>
>	Marc makes a good point here, folks!  Take a moment to check out
>some European Amiga magazines sometime.  They aren't for everyone, but
>we're talking *huge* magazines written by excited people.  It can be quite
>uplifting.

   I doubt it would uplift me.  Even in Europe there is no CD-ROM or good
productivity software available for the Amiga.

---
| Marc Barrett -MB-  |  email: barrett@iastate.edu
--------------------------------------------------
From: jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz (John Bickers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: CBM mention on 12/11/92 Computer Chronicles
Date: 29 Dec 92 14:22:47 PST
Organization: TAP

Quoted from <1992Dec28.174107.15214@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> by jerry@msi.com (Jerry Shekhel):
> Michael van Elst (mlelstv@specklec.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de) wrote:

> : >It *was* always better, because Windows was moving 256-color graphics on an
> : >800x600 screen, while the Amiga had 4 colors at 640x400.

> : I wonder why this has anything to do with the GUI. A GUI doesn't look
> : at number of pixels or colors... btw, Windows does not use 256 colors in
> : its GUI nor does Intuition limit you to 640x400x4 colors.

    Excellent point, Michael, and one that was discussed a while back
    but which I had forgotten.

> The greater pixel depth means that more data needs to be transferred during
> screen updates.

    My favorite example of shoddy window updating is to have several
    overlapping windows on screen, then delete the one in front and
    watch as bits and pieces of the other windows get updated in turn.

    The screen area occupied by this example can be _smaller_ than the
    same example performed with Intuition, and Intuition will still be
    quicker (at least between the machines at work and my Amiga at
    home, '386s in 16-color vs 030 in 4-color, the latter burdened by
    CHIP RAM bandwidth restrictions and what-not).

> | JERRY J. SHEKHEL  | Molecular Simulations Inc. | Time just fades the pages |
--
*** John Bickers, TAP.                   jbickers@templar.actrix.gen.nz ***
***    "Radioactivity - It's in the air, for you and me" - Kraftwerk    ***
Xref: sparky comp.sys.amiga.advocacy:32463 comp.sys.amiga.misc:19280