From: adams@spss.com (Steve Adams)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion,talk.religion.misc,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Christian Pro-Choicers
Date: 12 Jan 93 14:53:29 GMT
Organization: SPSS Inc.

hudson@athena.cs.uga.edu (Paul Hudson Jr) writes:

>In article <root.726786680@spssig> adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes:
>>hudson@athena.cs.uga.edu (Paul Hudson Jr) writes:
>>>Abortion is not a passive act.  It is an act of violence and aggression.
>>>The government should outlaw murder.  The woman who has an abortion does not
>>>just decide not to carry her child in her body.  She actually has her child
>>>killed.  
>>
>>Self defense is not a passive act, yet a death resulting from it is not
>>'murder.'  At least in the aspect of a grave risk to the mother's life, you
>>have to allow such a decision.  Pregnancy can't be a death sentence.  The
>>Levitical laws made exceptions, as did Christ himself.
>
>This argument only applies to a very miniscule proportion of abortions in
>this country.  besides, abortion can scarcely be compared to self-defense.

How so?  If the choice is between dying (or suffering grave health
consequences) and abortion, then it appears to me to be just like
self-defense.  I can use all necessary actions to defend my life, up to and
including killing the attacker if necessary.  While the unborn child is
certainly not actively, by choice attacking the woman, the result is the
same.

>The child is not trying to kill his mother.  this is a question of killing
>one innocent person to save the life of another innocent person.
So in other words, because the child does not intend to actively kill her,
it's ok for her to die?

Will you always chose death for the mother over potential (and that's all
it ever is, until birth) life for an unborn child?  And why do you get to
chose?

>>>There is a serious inconsistency in government policy.  It is illegal for a 
>>>mother to abandon her child, or to neglect him in some other way.  One
>>>can even be arrested for not feeding one's horses in this country.  
>
>>There is a huge difference.  A born child is a unique, self-contained
>>individual, that can be supported by any capable adult, and has demonstrable 
>>rights.  A fetus, prior to viability, is not self-contained, or supportable 
>>in any other fashion, and has no demonstrable rights under our laws.
>
>So.  What does self-sufficiency have to do with the intrinsic value of 
>the individual.  

The woman is already born and living.  The child is only potentially going
to live.  Not all babies survive birth, and miscarriages from natural
causes are fairly common.  Why should the rights of an unborn child
outweigh the rights of a born person?

>If a mother had a baby on a desert island, with no other 
>food source for the child, wouldn't it be immoral for her to not nurse the
>child.  
Straw man....you set it up to knock it down.  This analogy disappears for
every case of abortion in a society like ours...

>>And they are...if you take drugs during a pregnancy that you intend to
>>carry to term, you can be prosecuted.
>
>Yet, you can kill the baby and it is perfectly legal.

It's intent....if you *intend* to bring the child to term, harming him/her
is a violation...

>>>Those who excercise civil disobedience to protect these young human lives
>>>obviously feel that by doing nothing they would be violating God's law to
>>>protect the innocent.  
>>
>>Nothing says we can't change the laws...nothing says you can't protest.
>>But you can't violate someones rights in doing it.  By blockading a clinic
>>you are inhibiting a woman's right to avail herself of a legal medical
>>procedure.
>
>But, on the other hand, it may lessen the likelihood that she would kill her
>child.  Obviously, those who blockade clinics feel that it is better to
>(sometimes) disobey the law than to allow a child to be legally killed.

And will you take responsibility for all of the ramifications of preventing
her from obtaining an abortion?

 -Steve
--
  The opinions expressed above are those of the author and not SPSS, Inc.
                         -------------------
   adams@spss.com                                  Phone: (312) 329-3522
   Steve Adams        "Space-age cybernomad"       Fax:   (312) 329-3558
Newsgroups: talk.abortion