From: stojanov@husc10.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Banjica the death camp   Was: Re: Flames
Date: 20 Aug 92 21:52:31 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1992Aug20.175233.14951
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

In article <1992Aug20.191115.24837@src.umd.edu> josip@src.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric) writes:
>In article <1992Aug20.121635.14942@husc3.harvard.edu> stojanov@husc10.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug20.145626.21570@src.umd.edu> josip@src.umd.edu (Josip Loncaric) writes:
>>
>>Would you mind elaborating this?  Is Simon Wiesenthal also the 
>>Serbian propagandist?   Am I not telling the truth, or is Mrs. Mandic 
>>not telling the truth, while I am just naive?  I am waiting to
>>see your documents.  Would you like to talk to Mrs. Mandic and 
>>ask her whether she might be doing this because Croatian nationalists
>>killed her mother, while president Tudjman was trying to prove that Jews 
>>were killing each other, and killing Serbs?
>
>So, she's engaging in hatemongering because she seeks revenge?  Although
>the people who did her wrong are long dead?  Does she believe in collective
>guilt, and how does she reconcile this stand with the fact that Tudjman,
>a Croat, had fought against the people who did her wrong?  Are all Croats,
>especially the present generation of Croats who had nothing to do with
>WWII, and whose parents were NOT fascists either, supposed to be in 
>torment so that Mrs. Mandic could enjoy her revenge?  

The point is that you are lying that she is not Jewish.  And that's it.
Like MR. Simon Wiesenthal, she was warning for a long time what was 
comming back to Croatia.  Pres.  Tudjman, who nicely described in his
book who are Jews, little bit less who are Serbs, and nicely described
what is awaiting any minority that is in the way of majority.  What
overfilled the cup, in the case of Mr. Wiesenthal is the interview 
with Dinko Sakic, the last commanding officer of the Jasenovac.

And telling the truth is not a hatemongering.  And you have read the
truth Tudjman wrote. 

>
>Don't you think that the reprisals carried out by the Partisans after WWII 
>were more than enough revenge?  Do you think that even ONE sworn Ustasha 
>was left alive after WWII in Yugoslavia?  So, whom are the Serbian forces
>shelling: descendants of those Croats who were against fascists in WWII?
>
>Your propaganda claims are grotesque.

Many cheap propaganda shots in your text.  Refrain yourself into 
trying to interpret my words in a wrong fashion. There is enough
data to back up claims that there is a continuity of Croatian policy
towards Serbs.
All sworn Ustashas, who redressed and took partisans uniforms, like
colonel Mesic and his gang, were not only left alive, but were
given same treatments as those who were in partisans from the 
beginning. 

>Mr. Simon Wiesenthal would be horrified to find himself being mentioned
>in this context of hate.  His research (and you have quoted his
>fascination) has to do with WWII -- and he would NEVER want to see it
>used as a justification for carnage, shelling of cities, and ethnic
>cleansing going on TODAY.  And yet, this is precisely what Mrs. Mandic
>is doing.

It was posted on this group for a few times, his report about Tudjman, 
his book and possibilities of Ustasha come back.  

>>>
>>>"Processed" is what happened to concentration camp prisoners.  Some were
                                   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>then (indeed) killed, others were sent elsewhere to be killed, some
>>>may have even survived the ordeal.  A camp which processed over 23,000
>>>people is a fairly large camp.
>>>
>>In another article you claim: 
>>
>>In article <1992Aug19.214145.7420@src.umd.edu> Josip Loncaric writes:
>>>
>>>>        -Banjica - not a death camp, but concentration camp.  Hostages
>>>                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^     
>>Incorrect.  It WAS a death camp, people held there were taken out to be shot 
                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>in groups ranging from 100 to 300, day by day.
>>>
>>>>were kept there, under the request from Germans.  Special police had
>>>>secondary authority there, and kept resistance fighters.
>>>>Some people resisting, were really killed there by Serbian police.
>>>
>>>Including at least 128 children shot by Serbian guards, according to the 
>>>reference I've quoted.  Do you really believe that only "some people 
>>>resisting" were killed by Serbian police?
>>
>>
>>Banjica operated for 3 years.  Would you mind providing us with some 
>>date, how many people were actually killed in Banjica?  Something is 
>>fishy with you numbers and claims.  And you seem to be backing away from 
>>128 children.  What is the age of those children?  25? 
>
>So what is your point?  

My point is: 

1) You do not make distinction between concentration and death camps.
You are using the present days propaganda terms to confuse the readers.

2) You are ready of producing pages of well written, as far as English
is concerned, data, which could not stand the simplest analysis.  You 
are producing contradicting statements when facing any opposition.

>That Serbs did nothing wrong in Banjica?

Yes, Nedic's government did more or less nothing wrong in Banjica, 
unless it was forced to do by Germans.  Hunting down communists, with 
our present days knowledge was nothing bad.

>That what happened there is negligible and can be ignored?

So, what was happening there?  Would you mind finally getting to 
the point? 

>
>Maybe you think it can be ignored.  But, consider what Serb forces are
>doing in Bosnia today.  

Why are you changing the subject suddently?  Are you feeling that 
you will recover the lost credibility due to you claims about 
a) Klara Mandic ( you will never be able to produce anything 
convincing to back your claims, and actually I do know that you mixed
her with someone else, but let that be my little secret) b) vans/
chambers story, where you were forced to back up from the claims of
Serbs operating the van/chamber to Serbian company contracting the
clothes ( by the way, do you know that Germans attempted to claim
that some Jewish prisoners were operating gas chambers, thus 
absolving them of any crime?) c) trying to confuse everyone with 
Sajmiste/ Banjica story ( where you your self seem to be backing 
away from the initial branding of the Banjica as a death camp). 

>WHY ARE THEY DOING THIS?  Are Bosnian Muslims
>and Croats lesser life-forms than Serbs?  


Nice try Mr. Loncaric. What does this have to do with our discussion?

And, since you ask, fight going on in Bosnia and in Croatia
is for self determination.  The right given to Croats and Muslims,
but not for Serbs.  Do you think that Serbs should have this right?
Or you think that they should be dealt away with in the manner Tudjman
suggests in his book?  Oh, I forgot, you will wait until I post
relevant part of his book. 

(BTW, I have heard that AP reporter visited Capljina detention 
camp.  Has seen guards with black uniforms with U letter on their hats,
saluting with their hands in the strange way.  You remember Capljina and
our discussion. Of course, I did not personally read about this, so I do not
guarantee for this information). 


>What makes you so superior that
>you can be so inhumane?

Another cheap shot.  Read Tudjman's book, ( I suppose that you speak 
Croatian?) and you might understand. 


>
>Josip
>


I think that I'll give up this discussion, and concentrate on Tudjman.
Taking to much time.   Of course, I'll still be posting that
you were lying about Klara Mandic.


Good-bye,

Milan N. Stojanovic
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