From: gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism,soc.men,soc.women
Subject: Re: Statistical "proofs" (Was Re: women in engineering ( help..))
Date: 14 Sep 92 11:32:59 GMT
Organization: mydog in exile

In article <1992Sep14.022506.9937@uoft02.utoledo.edu> dweddin@uoft02.utoledo.edu writes:
| > In article <1992Sep8.045754.1775@panix.com> gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch) writes:
| > 
| >1.  Once upon a time from one-third to one-half of the
| >programmers I observed were female.
| >2.  Credentialism happened and programmers became "engineers."
| >3.  90% of the new "engineers" are male.
| >4.  Programmer workforce will become more skewed toward males
| >than it was.
| >
| 
| hey,
| 
| a programmer is NOT an engineer. we engineers have to take math and
| science courses that the typical programmer couldn't handle on his (or
| her) best day. once a programmer becomes a software engineer, they have 
| to run this gauntlet like all the other engineering professions. it's the 
| fear of these math and science classes that keep women from becoming 
| engineers...not the old boys network.

Really?  Once upon a time I was a programmer.  As it happened, I
had taken Calculus, but many of my peers had not.  The transition
from programmer to "software engineer" happened quite miraculously
and had nothing to do with my knowledge -- it had to do with the
need to market my abilities.

In 28 years of programming and systems work, I have never seen a
problem that couldn't be easily solved without using Calculus.
The last time the Calculus requirement was debated on the net, I
took an informal survey of my colleagues in the craft.  Of a
population of 51, number who had used Calculus on the job, ever:
0.  In fact, the question elicited laughter.  Don't fall for 
the academic propaganda about math and science: they're in
business like everyone else, and business means building sales.
Since you can't take the product back once you've bought it,
they can sell you anything, including two useless years of
Calculus.

So, if my original idea about women orignally making up a third
of the workforce had been correct, then we could see the workings
of sexist discrimination through a form of torture: Calculus
classes.  However, it seems that outside of New York City, women
did not get into the field in any great numbers even before it
was recaptured by the academic system and credentialized.

I conclude that my particular experience proves only that women
can do programming etc., and do it well, in substantial numbers,
and if they've been shut out elsewhere, then the smell of a rat
is in the air.  

| my experience is that there are very few women who want to take these
| classes...maybe it's that they've been conditioned not to take them or
| perhaps women just aren't any good at math and science...who knows.

But we know that many women are good at math and science, so
it's conditioning or the nature of the classes or the culture
they exist in, evidently.

| the point is, there are few women in engineering NOT because we sit around
| and plot and scheme to keep women out...far from it!!! i would love it if
| there were more women engineers...you ever work 8+ hours a day surrounded by
| a bunch of smelly guys?!?! jeez, a little change in scenery would be
| nice once in a while.

The only way we can get more women in engineering and 
"engineering" is to figure out why they aren't there already.
-- 
 )*(    Gordon Fitch    )*(    gcf@panix.com    )*(
( 1238 Blg. Grn. Sta.,  NY NY 10274 * 718.273.5556 )