From: rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Jesus is a Prophet, not Son of God
Date: 10 Nov 92 21:24:21 GMT
Organization: CERL-EE, Georgia Institue of Technology

In article <92315.103940RBNXHS@rohvm1.rohmhaas.com> RBNXHS@rohvm1.rohmhaas.com writes:
|In response to Richard Pitts, on questions relating to Jesus (sorry I cannot
|include your exact statements, because my computer terminal does not
|have such facilities for on-line responses on the Net):

You can write the message out and include it back in, correct?

|        Your statements concerning Jesus's claim of Godhood, etc. are based on
|        the New Testament books - all of which are PSEUDOPIGRAPHIC (I have
|        provided, in a separate reply, the references to this proven theory).

You missed.  The claim of Godhood came from the Old Testament - Malachi 3.
God (The Lord Almighty) said he, himelf, was coming. 

    Malachi 3:1 (NIV)   "See, I will send my messenger, who will 
    prepare the way before ME. Then suddenly the Lord you are 
    seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, 
    whom you desire, will come," says the LORD Almighty. 

|        As such, the statements which are attributed to Jesus simply
|        may not be true. Biblical scholars all agree that none of the gospels

I think you over state your case here - these supposed Biblical scholars
who agree with your statement do not speak for all.  Many attest to the 
authorship of the gospels and the other books by the disciples and their 
contemporaries.  Even the Old Testament books were often written by scribes
at the direction of the author.

|        were written by actual disciples (not even Matthew's and John's), and
|        they were ALL written after the failed Revolt of 66-70 c.e. Remember
|        that most of the disciples were either killed or died, between the
|        period of 33-70 c.e. (again let me remind you that John the Elder, the
|        supposed writer of John's gospel was not John-the disciple of Jesus).

Oh,  I thought the writer of the Book of John said that he was the
DISCIPLE that Jesus loved.

|        As I mentioned in an earlier response on the above subject, what we
|        have today in the NT are nothing more than the edited versions of
|        Pauline version of christianity. In that composition books/epistles
|        were attributed to some original disciples, while in reality the
|        materials therein had nothing to do with what they preached or
|        delivered. That is why, we find, Paul, the self-appointed disciple,

Paul was called by the Lord and another man Ananias was given an INDEPENDENT
confirmation of this calling.  Acts 9.  Both of these men (Paul and Ananias)
were at two different places and were both told to go to the same place.
Paul was to go and wait and Ananias was to come to Paul, for the Lord told
Ananias that Paul (who had formerly persecuted the faith) was now His
chosen vessel to take the gospel to the Gentiles.

|        in several places in the NT accused the original disciples of teaching
|        ANOTHER gospel, which was totally different than his version. It is

Paul warned of another gospel.  Give your reference for Paul's accusation
of the other disciples preaching another gospel.  If you want to check
in Acts 15, you will see that "false brothers" came to Antioch from Judea 
and said that circumsion was required for salvation.  Paul, Barnabus, Peter, 
and James all agreed that this was wrong, for they had a church conference
with the apostles and elders over this.  Salvation is by FAITH ALONE - no
man's work merits it, except the compeleted work of the God-man Jesus the
Christ.  Peter and James both testified that Paul was right - for the OT
prophecied that the Gentiles would come into the Kingdom.

|        very clear to see that on the fundamental doctrine, Paul's version
|        deviated from that preached by real, original disciples of Jesus, who
|        heard firsthand from their master, Jesus, the son of Mary. The original

PETER WAS FIRSTHAND and he affirmed Paul's message.  In fact, he gave Paul's
writings equal status with the Old Testament Scripture and said that people
twist Paul's writings just as they do the rest of Scripture.

|        disciples had  practiced their religion, which was not different from
|       from the Jews (except in their recognition of Jesus, as a Jewish Messiah
|        and a Prophet of God, NOT a son of God, nor a God) in the Jerusalem
|        Temple.

Malachi 3:1 said God himself was coming.  John the disciple said Jesus was
God.  Thomas said to Jesus "My Lord and My God."

Remember God alone is to be worshipped.  Jesus acepted worship, but no
one else did (not angels nor any mere human.)

Matthew 2:11 (NIV)   On coming to the house, they saw the child with his 
mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their 
treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh. 

Matthew 14:33 (NIV)   Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying,  
"Truly you are the Son of God." 

Matthew 28:9 (NIV)   Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came 
to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. 

Luke 24:52 (NIV)   Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with 
great joy. 

John 9:38 (NIV)   Then the man said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him. 

Acts 24:14 (NIV)   However, I admit that I worship the God of our fathers as a 
follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that agrees 
with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, 

Hebrews 1:6 (NIV)   And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, 
he says, "Let all God's angels worship him." 

Revelation 7:11 (NIV)   All the angels were standing around the throne and 
around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces 
before the throne and worshiped God, 

Revelation 11:16 (NIV)   And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their 
thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 

Revelation 14:7 (NIV)   He said in a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, 
because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, 
the earth, the sea and the springs of water." 

Revelation 19:10 (NIV)   At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he 
said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your 
brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of 
Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." 

Revelation 22:8 (NIV)   I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. 
And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the 
angel who had been showing them to me. 
Revelation 22:9 (NIV)   But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow 
servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the 
words of this book. Worship God!" 

|        During the period of canonization of the books in the 4th century,
|        more than 240 books were destroyed/banned, which did not agree with
|        Pauline version. In that list of forbidden books were books, which

If Peter an original disciple agreed with Paul, then why would any of these
false books be included in the canon?  If they are wrong, they are wrong.
Peter (a firsthand man of Jesus) agreed with Paul.

|        included the writings of the original disciples. Biblical scholars
|        have shown that, based on latest findings in the Naag Hamadi area
|        in Egypt and Qumran/Dead Sea areas, the belief of these original
|        disciples were quite different than what the christians today believe
|        in. For example, the Naag Hamadi finding showed that Jesus did not
|        die on the cross, nor was he crucified, but was SUBSTITUTED by another
|        person. Don't forget how the Ebionites, Basilidians, and other such

If Jesus didn't die, he could not have rose from the dead.  His death
and resurrection is the cornerstone of Christianity.  He died and rose
from the dead.  For those who claim he didn't die, they have no faith 
that is worthwhile - Peter and all of the disciples preached Jesus 
death at the hands of the Jews and His resurrection by God, himself.

Let's look at Isaiah 53 and see what was prophecied of the Coming Messiah,
Jesus the Christ.  The Dead Sea Scrolls confirms that the following
was not a substitution by Chrisitans, but was in Isaiah's original.
Note: crucifixion was not a method of punishment in Isaiah's time.
Note the parallels to this prophecy and Jesus' death on the cross.

    Isaiah 53 (NIV)   Who has believed our message and to whom has 
    the arm of the LORD been revealed? {2} He grew up before him 
    like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground. He had 
    no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his 
    appearance that we should desire him. {3} He was despised and 
    rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. 
    Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we 
    esteemed him not. {4} Surely he took up our infirmities and 
    carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, 
    smitten by him, and afflicted. {5} But he was pierced for our 
    transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the 
    punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds 
    we are healed. {6} We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of 
    us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the 
    iniquity of us all. {7} He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he 
    did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, 
    and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open 
    his mouth. {8} By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And 
    who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the 
    land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was 
    stricken. {9} He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with 
    the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was 
    any deceit in his mouth. {10} Yet it was the Lord's will to 
    crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his 
    life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his 
    days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand. 
    {11} After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of 
    life and be satisfied ; by his knowledge my righteous servant 
    will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. 
    {12} Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he 
    will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out 
    his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. 
    For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the 
    transgressors. 

David propecied of Jesus.

    Psalms 22:14-18 (NIV)   I am poured out like water, and all my 
    bones are out of joint. My heart has turned to wax; it has 
    melted away within me. {15} My strength is dried up like a 
    potsherd, and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth; you lay 
    me in the dust of death. {16} Dogs have surrounded me; a band of 
    evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my 
    feet. {17} I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over 
    me. {18} They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my 
    clothing. 

David also said that God would not let his Holy One see decay, but 
yet David himself died and is dead to this day.  God's Holy One is 
Jesus the Christ - Jesus of Nazareth - he died and did not see decay,
for he rose from the grave (from death) on the third day.

|        groups which rejected the divinity of Jesus were haunted down by the
|        Trinitarian church, esp. when the Roman government itself adopted
|        christianity (i.e., Pauline version). I suggest that you read J.
|        Robinson's "The Second Treatise of the Great Seth", and M.A. Yusseff's
|        "The Dead Sea Scrolls, the gospel of Barnabas and the New Testament."
|        In the christian apocryphal book, Gospel of Barnabas, it is stated that
|        Jesus was only a Prophet, and even not the last messenger. Jesus is
|        reported to have said that after him would come Muhammad - the last
|        messenger of God. It also stated that Jesus did receive revelation like

Jesus said He, Himself, would return - not someone else.  Jesus is the
fulfillment of prophecy.

|        other prophets of God. Here, I am quite familiar with discomfort of
|        most christians, and as a result of which the christian clergy over
|        the last eight and a half decade went out on a crusadic mission to
|        question the authenticity of this gospel. We understand their sensi-
|        tivity since if one were to accept the gospel of Barnabas as contain-
|        ing the uncontaminated teachings of Jesus, then there would be nothing
|        left of christianity to propagate, but to accept Islam. Some of these

Oh.  I understand you have found the true gospel, but those that walked 
and talked with Jesus missed it.  I think you have a lot of wishful thinking
going for you.

|        christian clergies have even suggested that the gospel might have beenn
|        written by a Muslim in the mid-16th century, or possibly by a newly
|        convert to Islam. These kind of theories by biased researchers cannot
|        hide the very fact that the gospel had nothing to do with Muslims/
|        Islam, since the gospel of Barnabas formed one of the banned books of
|        the christian church, hundreds of years before the birth of Prophet
|        Muhammad. M.A. Yusseff, in his commentary on the Gospel of Barnabas,
|        republished by American Trust Publications, answers all the questions
|        raised by christian clergy, beginning with Ragg family to Sox (see also
|        The Dead Sea Scrolls, the Gospel of Barnabas and the New Testament).

I think you read enough liberal Christian or non-Christian material.  Have
you ever read any of the conservative material?  Again, if the original
apostles (Peter, John, etc.) agreed with Paul and the revelation he had,
then why should they consider something that ran contrary to their knowledge?
The OT and NT both have running through them the central theme that one
needs to follow God's way and no other way - don't corrupt God's way
with pagan ideas.

Peter saw with his own eyes that salvation is by faith - he confirmed
Paul's message.  James called on the prophet Amos in support of God 
bringing in people from every nations - the message of God is received
by faith alone.  Even Abraham of old was counted in God's kingdom by 
faith.  

|        In your response you cited Paul's epistle written to the Hebrews. I

Oddly enough, hardly anyone agrees that Paul wrote the book of Hebrews
much less no one you seem to hold in regard.  I'm not sure who wrote it.

|        don't give any value to Paul's writings merely because of the fact
|        that he considered Melchisadek as God. I don't think he was ever
|        inspired by God to write stuffs like that. So, his views are no

He was "AS" God, but not God.  If you look back and check on God meeting
Moses and calling him to go and set his people free from slavery in Eygpt, 
you will see Moses make excuses.  Moses didn't want to go, so God told
him that he'd have Aaron be his speaker - and Moses would be "AS" God to
Aaron.

|        concern of me. You may believe what you like, that is your discretion,
|        I simply cannot trust a person who contaminated the teachings of Jesus.

I wouldn't trust anyone who contaminated Jesus' teachings either.

|        No, we don't accept that Jesus was crucified or died, but rather that
|        someone else was substituted in his place, and that Jesus was ascended
|    ALIVE to heaven by the angels prior to the whole crucifiction scenario ever

If you look at the prophecies above in Isaiah and the Psalms, you will see
that he was to die and rise again.

|        took place, and that he will return to earth towards the end of time
|        to kill ad-Dazzal (the false messiah), and that he will follow the
|        shariah of Islam and will marry and eventually die on earth, and will
|        be buried beside the grave of Muhammad (SAWS) in Madinah. This is our
|        belief, based on Islamic traditions, as passed on to us by our Prophet
|        Muhammad - the last messenger of God. After his return, he will

Let me ask you this - why is Muhammed the last messenger?  He died and
you have him in the grave like any other mere man, don't you?  Jesus
died and rose again and both of these according to prophecy.  Jesus
triumphed over death - no one else has.

I agree Jesus will return and slay the false messiah, but he will 
reign forever and not die and be buried as you say.

|        symbolically break the cross (thus nullifying christianity as a false
|      religion, which had nothing to do with his teachings). We are definitely
|        excited by the findings of these latest excavation sites in the Middle
|        East which show that there were original christians who lived about two
|        millenia ago and who believed like Muslims today, in regard to Jesus.
|        I hope I have been able to answer the Muslim position on Jesus.

You have given a Muslim position.  How does your position line up with
the Isaiah and Psalm passages (which were confirmed with the Dead Sea
Scrolls find) that God's Holy one will not see decay?  You have Jesus
dying and staying dead - thus decaying.  It is prophecied that God
will be victorious over death.  

    Isaiah 25:6-9 (NIV)   On this mountain the LORD Almighty will 
    prepare a feast of rich food for all peoples, a banquet of aged 
    wine-- the best of meats and the finest of wines. {7} On this 
    mountain he will destroy the shroud that enfolds all peoples, 
    the sheet that covers all nations; {8} he will swallow up death 
    forever. The Sovereign LORD will wipe away the tears from all 
    faces; he will remove the disgrace of his people from all the 
    earth. The LORD has spoken. {9} In that day they will say, 
    "Surely this is our God; we trusted in him, and he saved us. 
    This is the LORD, we trusted in him; let us rejoice and be glad 
    in his salvation." 

Jesus is the firstfruit of this eternal, immortal life.

|Siddiqui.

For Christ and His Kingdom,
Richard Pitts
-- 
rpitts@cerl.gatech.edu       |    
Atlanta, GA                --|-- 
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