HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mmmirash@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar M. Mirashi)
Subject: Re: Sexist language
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 22:20:22 GMT
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA

In article <1992Dec21.042304.6199@cdf.toronto.edu> g9rwaigh@cdf.toronto.edu (Rosemary Waigh) writes:
>In article <BzL3MK.JuF@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu> mmmirash@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar M. Mirashi) writes:
>>Well, how about :
>Okay, here are my grammaticality judgements:
                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Hmmm....haven't heard *that* word before.

>>
>>      "That person isn't here, is they?"
>* (no subject-verb agreement in tag question.)
>>  
>>      "That person aren't here, are they?"
>* (no subject-verb agreement in main clause.)
>>
So you *do* find them incorrect.

>>      "That person isn't here, are they?"
>? awkward, use of "that" suggests the person and hence their sex is known
>  to the speaker.

Not necessarily.  

The person who left their hat here, isn't there, are they?

Find HOW MANY people find *that* grammatically correct.


>>
>>      "That person aren't here, is they?"
>* (no subject verb agreement in main clause or tag question)
Exactly.

>>
>>      "Ask your doctor if they are interested."
>  perfectly grammatical

Balderdash! It isn't.

>>
>>      "That employee should sign their form".
>? awkward, again because of "that".  If it had "the" it would be okay.
>-- 

I implore you to once again check with your friends. HOW MANY agree that
the foll. sentence is grammatically correct :

"The student should wipe their feet before entering."

                                                                Mandar.
-- 
"Imagine there are no countries. It isn't hard to do. Nothing to kill or die 
 for, and no religion too. Imagine all the people living life in peace.
 You may say that I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. I hope that some
 day you'll join us, and the world will be as one." - John Lennon.
Xref: sparky soc.college:5882 alt.usage.english:10143
From: wilcox@vax.oxford.ac.uk
Newsgroups: soc.college,alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Shaking people up with "she"? (was Re: Sexist language)
Date: 30 Dec 92 13:44:44 GMT
Organization: Oxford University VAX 6620

In article <1992Dec29.045939.26935@Princeton.EDU>, roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:
> In article <1992Dec20.125836.10920@vax.oxford.ac.uk> wilcox@vax.oxford.ac.uk writes:
>>But are we still allowed to profess ourselves *unhappy* with the use of the
>>singular they?
> 
> Sure, but it's about as meaningful as expressions of unhappiness with
> the Treaty of Westphalia or the Krebs cycle or the Central Limit Theorem.

That's all right then. I've never heard of these three wonderful pieces of
knowledge, so I'm certainly unhappy about using them or hearing people use
them. Just like singular they in fact.

-- 

Stephen Wilcox             |   For Sale: Posts in British Government. Suit
wilcox@vax.oxford.ac.uk    |   outgoing American. Highest bids accepted.
Newsgroups: soc.college,alt.usage.english
From: gtoal@pizzabox.demon.co.uk (Graham Toal)
Subject: Re: Sexist language
Organization: Cuddlehogs Anonymous
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 02:51:50 GMT

In article <1992Dec23.063815.433@news.eng.convex.com> tchrist@convex.COM (Tom Christiansen) writes:
::>>    "Ask your SO whether they're interested."
::       This sentence is improper,  when I ask a friend if their Significant
::       Other is comming,  I know what sex his girlfriend is! :-)
:
:Apparently you hang out with a rather conservative crowd.  Don't assume
:you know the gender of someone's SO.
:
:The sentence is not improper -- you spelling of 'coming', however, is.

True.  Should've been spelt with a 'u'.

G
(Hey, I'm back. Did ya miss me, guys?)
Newsgroups: soc.college,alt.usage.english
From: mmmirash@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar M. Mirashi)
Subject: Re: Sexist language
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 22:48:05 GMT
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA

In article <1992Dec21.044100.7220@cdf.toronto.edu> g9rwaigh@cdf.toronto.edu (Rosemary Waigh) writes:
>In article <BzLCtr.3MI@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu> mmmirash@banshee.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar M. Mirashi) writes:
>>Awwww....I was just changing the sentences to make them sound more
>>correct, grammatically. The essence of what he wished to convey
>>remains the same. 
>
>If it's a paraphrase rather than the exact words then it shouldn't be in
>quotation marks.  

.sig changed. Hope that makes you happy.  ;)

(In my dialect the null complementizer in place of "that"
>is perfectly grammatical, and "there" is usually grammatically singular.)
                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
There is countries?
There is stars in the sky???


                *Those* are grammatically incorrect.


                                                           Mandar.



-- 
"Imagine there's no countries. It isn't hard to do. Nothing to kill or die 
 for, and no religion too. Imagine all the people living life in peace.
 You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. I hope some
 day you'll join us, and the world will be as one." - John Lennon.
From: f254@cs.utexas.edu (Fall Class Account)
Newsgroups: soc.college
Subject: Accomodation Needed near A&M Campus (College Station)
Date: 25 Dec 1992 13:44:39 -0600
Organization: U Texas Dept of Computer Sciences, Austin TX
Distribution: tx
NNTP-Posting-Host: nada.cs.utexas.edu

I am looking for a cheap accomodation near the A&M campus to stay for one
night on Friday, January 8.  Is there any dorm room/co-op?

Thank you very much.
From: waldo@cybernet.cse.fau.edu (Todd J. Dicker)
Newsgroups: soc.college
Subject: SEXIST LANGUAGE THREAD IS HERSTERICAL
Date: 25 Dec 92 17:07:59 GMT
Organization: Cybernet BBS, Boca Raton, Florida

While you yutzs argue over this piddly little language issue, real people 
are working, studying, reading, writing and carrying on with their lives. 
In other words, ACCOMPLISHING something with their time.

Arguing over gender neutral language is childish and theoretically 
unsophisticated.  Any real rational thought immediately goes beyond
langauge to meaning to conduct its reasoning (semiology).

I believe that those who spend their time arguing over an issue like this 
in the name of feminism have no real concept of what feminism can
accomplish when directed toward productive ends.  Get a life!
Xref: sparky soc.college:5846 alt.usage.english:9856
From: iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Ivan A Derzhanski)
Newsgroups: soc.college,alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Sexist language
Date: 21 Dec 92 20:33:02 GMT
Organization: Centre for Cognitive Science, Edinburgh, UK

In article <MICHALJ.92Dec21105735@fizyk1.fuw.edu.pl> michalj@fuw.edu.pl (Michal Jankowski) writes:
>Is 'they' really used in the UK?

Yes, it is.  So is gender-neutral "he".  It is really up to the speaker.
I don't know whether either of the pronouns is more frequently preferred
on one side of the lake than it is on the other.

>(And don't use a quote from Shakespeare as a proof 8-) ).

Shakespeare is dead, and so is his language.  I have this theory that
those fond of quoting his use of "they" ought to use "thou" as well.

>Also, 'the rest of the world' don't speak English, it speaks Chinese.

Make that "they speak Chinese".  I reckon "the world" here was a
shortcut for "the English-speaking world".

>There are no gender-neutral pronouns (singular or plural or whatever)
>in many languages, including my native Polish, and we're perfectly
>happy with that. Maybe it's because in Polish 'grammatical gender' <>
>'sex', so it's possible for a masculine gender word to refer to woman
>and vice versa.

Yes, but that happens very infrequently.

It would be instructive to look at other languages in which gender is
as tightly correlated with sex as it is in English, such as Bengali
(which distinguishes between masculine and feminine `they') or the
languages of Daghestan.

-- 
 `D'ye mind tellin me whit the two o ye are gaun oan aboot?' (The Glasgow
Ivan A Derzhanski  (iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk; iad@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu)    Gospel)
* Centre for Cognitive Science,  2 Buccleuch Place,  Edinburgh EH8 9LW,  UK
* Cowan House, Pollock Halls, 18 Holyrood Park Road, Edinburgh EH16 5BD, UK
Newsgroups: soc.college,alt.usage.english
From: mmmirash@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar M. Mirashi)
Subject: Re: They (was Re: Shaking people up with "she"? (was Re: Sexist language))
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 22:32:33 GMT
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA

In article <1992Dec21.042942.6539@cdf.toronto.edu> g9rwaigh@cdf.toronto.edu (Rosemary Waigh) writes:
>In article <BzL4yC.L31@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu> mmmirash@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar M. Mirashi) writes:
>>Rosemary Waigh writes:
>>>Most people my age do not post on the net.  
>>
>>So their absence indicates their agreement with your statement???

>No, I have talked to them in real life, since early childhood!
>
Have you talked to ALL the people of your age? Oh my, you *do* move
around. There must be thousands (if not millions) of native speakers
of your age. 

>>Anyway, most people of ANY age don't post to the net. That doesn't
>>prove anything.
>It proves that you can't use the net as a reliable sample.  There is a
>great deal of self-selection.

So, we should accept your experiences as "reliable samples" (whatever
that means).

>>
>>>The net is hardly representative of the population in general.  
>>That is debatable. People from different backgrounds post to the net
>>and the variety in opinions you encounter here, is hardly observed
>>in real life.

>It is hardly representative *because* it is hardly observed in real life.

Aren't you being a bit pompous? You are trying to extrapolate the
experiences from *your* life to the entire world. I would regard the
net to be far more representative of the opinions of the world than
your "real life".

>Everyone I know feels comfortable saying "they" as they always have without 
>having to write article on the net about it.

Ask them if they feel comfortable with the usage of "they" in the sentences
I have provided. Again, ask them if he/she would have sounded better.

>>
>>>(And even the people on the net who have
>>>opposed the use of "they" in lieu of "he" occasionally slip and use "they"
>>>forms!)
>>Nobody's perfect! Don't tell me that you ALWAYS write *without* a
>>single grammatical/spelling mistake.
>Ah, but it's not a mistake, it's the natural (as opposed to hypercorrected)
>way of writing!
>
Natural to whom??
Present the sentences I have formed with "they", "their", etc. and ask
them if they are "natural".

>I take a *descriptive* approach rather than a *prescriptive* approach:  i.e.
>the rules of English are those that describe how adult native speakers of
>English really speak, not how a few prescriptivists wish they spoke.

Remember that "adult native speakers" doesn't include only your closeted
world. There are LOTS of speakers who DON'T find the use of "they",
"their" grammatical in the sentences provided by me.


                                                              Mandar. 
-- 
"Imagine there are no countries. It isn't hard to do. Nothing to kill or die 
 for, and no religion too. Imagine all the people living life in peace.
 You may say that I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. I hope that some
 day you'll join us, and the world will be as one." - John Lennon.
Newsgroups: soc.college,alt.usage.english
From: sgcclmj@citec.oz.au (Liz Jones)
Subject: Re: Sexist language
Organization: CITEC
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 01:08:52 GMT

nadeau@bnr.ca (Rheal Nadeau) writes:
: >
: >>Isn't this a basic tenant of English? :-)
: >
: >No, there are rules, such as the fact that H. Dumpty, being a person,
: >should be referred to by a personal pronoun, e.g.
: >
: >"Isn't he a basic tenant of English?" :-)
: 
: Silly you!  Humpty-Dumpty is an egg, and thus feminine (sperm are male,
: of course!)  So that should be "Isn't she a basic tenant of English?"
: 
: (Oh my, is this silly season in a.u.e.?)
:

Excuse me, but I'm confused.  What is "a tenant of English"?

The only other thing I can think of is that it should be "tenet".

Please point out whatever it is that I'm not seeing...

Liz
 
Xref: sparky soc.college:5842 alt.usage.english:9851
From: iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Ivan A Derzhanski)
Newsgroups: soc.college,alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Shaking people up with "she"? (was Re: Sexist language)
Date: 21 Dec 92 10:27:58 GMT
Organization: Centre for Cognitive Science, Edinburgh, UK

In article <pelle.724894137@snakemail.hut.fi> timo.pelkonen@hut.fi writes:
>In <12149@scott.ed.ac.uk> iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Ivan A Derzhanski) writes:
>>Finnish _ha"n_ [...] is part of everyone's language.
>
>is it? ...NOT!  [...]
>
>in real life (spoken language) h{n is seldomly used.

I was aware of that, but I didn't consider it relevant enough to mention,
because it doesn't change the point -- _se_ is exactly as gender-neutral
as _ha"n_ is.

>i just can't recall when i heard h{n last time - of course the "bbc"
>finnish used in TV is an exception.

But if you hear it on telly, or encounter it in writing, you recognise
it as referring to a person (which makes it different from _se_) of
either sex.  In that sense it is part of your (passive) language, and
of everybody else's.  This is not the case for English, because for
some English speakers "he" is always masculine, whereas for others
"they" is always plural.

>tnx, timo pelkonen tee-maw pehl-kaw-nhen :)

Er, "nhen"?  Is that Portuguese "nh" or Welsh "nh"?  :-)

-- 
 `D'ye mind tellin me whit the two o ye are gaun oan aboot?' (The Glasgow
Ivan A Derzhanski  (iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk; iad@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu)    Gospel)
* Centre for Cognitive Science,  2 Buccleuch Place,  Edinburgh EH8 9LW,  UK
* Cowan House, Pollock Halls, 18 Holyrood Park Road, Edinburgh EH16 5BD, UK
Xref: sparky soc.college:5871 alt.usage.english:10003
From: djohns@elm.circa.ufl.edu (David A. Johns)
Newsgroups: soc.college,alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: They (was Re: Shaking people up with "she"? (was Re: Sexist language))
Date: 25 Dec 92 02:19:19 GMT
Followup-To: soc.college
Organization: University of Florida, Gainesville

In article <BzJtDr.D3I@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu> mmmirash@banshee.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar M. Mirashi) writes:

# This is either ignorance or an attempt at being dense. Rosemary,
# MANY persons on the soc.college newsgroups rejected the use of
# "they" as in "That person isn't late, are they?" and *most* of them
# are of your age. What *is* your age anyway?

I know you're just kidding when you pretend not to know the difference
between deixis on the one hand and generic or indefinite references on
the other.  You are just kidding, aren't you Mandar?

I'm sure Rosemary would be perfectly happy with "If one more person
comes late, we'll have to turn them away", and so would I, which lines
two whole age cohorts against you.

How many cohorts can *you* line up?

David Johns
From: ICSCH@ASUACAD.BITNET
Newsgroups: soc.college
Subject: Re: observations (frat)
Date: 23 Dec 92 20:00:44 GMT
 <1992Dec14.032648.28935@midway.uchicago.edu>
 <1992Dec15.034519.16419@njitgw.njit.edu>
 <1992Dec18.082357.20098@midway.uchicago.edu>
Organization: Arizona State University

Mr. Frank,

I can sympathize with your feelings towards the causal relationship between
fraternities and rape; however, I find myself disquited when you assert that
fraternities facilitate the criminal act of rape.  As an advisor to the Sigma
      Pi Fraternity here at ASU, I would like agree that in the past that your
assertion MAY have had some degree of GLOBAL credence as a POSSIBLE CONTRIBUTIN
G AGENT NATIONWIDE.  However, I would hazard to say that THERE IS NO DIRECT EVI
DENCE THAT FRATERNITIES WERE OR ARE SIGNIFICANT AND/OR DIRECT MOTIVATORS AND/OR
FACILITATORS OF RAPE.  Even if you do find any such EVIDENCE (Try a search of t
he literature via the PsychLit database.), please note that this behavior is no
t condoned by fraternities or their institutions (Granted, an obvious statement
, but I had to make its note.).  In fact, with the current highly-litiguous leg
al climate, ANY illegal act by fraternities, sororities and other student group
s are being dealt with with appropriately harsh penalties.  Finally, just becau
se there is smoke, does not mean someone is eating BBQ beef...
Newsgroups: soc.college,alt.usage.english
From: mmmirash@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar M. Mirashi)
Subject: Re: Frosh (was Re: Sexist language (was...
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 21:00:50 GMT
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA

In article <1992Dec22.003854.24633@bmerh85.bnr.ca> nadeau@bnr.ca (Rheal Nadeau) writes:
>In article <BzMsCF.E6q@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu> mmmirash@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar M. Mirashi) writes:
>>In article <1992Dec21.043452.6843@cdf.toronto.edu> g9rwaigh@cdf.toronto.edu (Rosemary Waigh) writes:
>>>In article <BzL601.LLr@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu> mmmirash@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar M. Mirashi) writes:
>>>>>
>>>>Aha! The "unambiguous" writer caught red-handed! 
>>>Um, I don't think I have ever claimed that natural language was unambiguous;
>>>I think you have me confused with someone else.
>>>
>>
>>But you *did* claim that you try to write unambiguously whenever possible.
>>Don't deny that. And here I have very clearly shown that you don't
>>practise what you preach.
>
>I don't remember Rosemary saying that - maybe you've got her confused with
>me?  I assure you, we don't look very much alike (right, Ro?).
>

*Sigh*. These are times when I wish my newsreader would save former
articles and that their expiry date be much later. Rosemary *did*
make a claim saying that we should write unambiguously, whenever
possible.

>Anyway, note the word "try".  Check your English English dictionary,
>Mandar - "try" isn't the same as "do".  (Except, of course, for Yoda.)

No it isn't. So, we should "try" to avoid "ambiguities" in the case
of gender and shouldn't attempt to do the same when speaking of other
things? No. That theory doesn't cut much ice with me. If Rosemary
*was* such a careful writer, she should have seen possible ambiguities.
Anyway, my original claim stands. It is impossible to ALWAYS be TOTALLY
unambiguous when writing/speaking. The meanings of words will
continue to be inferred from their context.

>
>       The Rhealist - nadeau@bnr.ca - Speaking only for myself

                                                       Mandar. 
-- 
"Imagine there's no countries. It isn't hard to do. Nothing to kill or die 
 for, and no religion too. Imagine all the people living life in peace.
 You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. I hope some
 day you'll join us, and the world will be as one." - John Lennon.
From: naraht@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu (Randolph J. Finder)
Newsgroups: soc.college
Subject: Colleges, hazing and the military.
Date: 3 Jan 93 16:43:14 GMT
Article-I.D.: drycas.1993Jan3.214314.2837
Organization: Carnegie Mellon Computer Club

With all of the state laws against hazing, I would be interested to see if
these have been applied to the US military in any way. I see three
possibilities for problems.

1) ROTC on campus: belong to an organization that hazes even if not on
	campus (summer training ??)

2) The military academies(sp?): Not only West Point, Annapolis and
	USAFA, but the private military academies as well.

3) Military training sites like Parris Island.

I'm not suggesting that this be used to kick ROTC off campus, but I wish
there were a consistent standard between the military( and the military
academies) and collecge fraternities.

-- 
(naraht@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu)	  | Leadership,Friendship, and Service
(vri_rjfin@dmis.ha.osd.mil)	  |          Alpha Phi Omega
"The service we render to others  | National (Co-ed) Service Fraternity
 is the rent we pay for our room on earth" - Sir Wilfred Grenfell
From: sullis@rebecca.its.rpi.edu (Sean C. Sullivan)
Newsgroups: soc.college
Subject: E-mail addresses for SUNY-Cortland?
Date: 2 Jan 93 00:04:55 GMT
Distribution: ny
Organization: Rotisserie Polytechnic Institute (Troy, NY, USA)


Is SUNY-Cortland on BITNET?

If so, what is the e-mail address?

-- 
# Sean C. Sullivan (sullis@rpi.edu) | R.P.I. | DISCLAIMER:  Not!   #
# (AFS home directory:  /afs/rpi.edu/home/95/sullis)               #
# "Holy mother of God, what is Lou Gorman smoking?" == Dave Kirsch #
From: ruan@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: soc.college
Subject: info. needed on USF, Tempa and etc.
Date: 20 Dec 92 20:38:49 CST
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services
From: ruan@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: soc.college.gradinfo
Subject: info. needed on USF, Tempa and etc.
Date: 20 Dec 92 20:32:23 CST
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

Hi everyone,
	I just got accepted to the master program in electrical
engineering at University of South Florida at Tempa.  That 's the
first school that I applied and accepted.  So I would like to ask for
some opinions from netters whoever have heard anything about the
school or the area.  One of the professors that I talked at my school
happened to be from Florida originally.  He said the school had a
pretty good reputation in Florida.  My questions are the following:

1. Are there some decent high-tech industries in the area of Tempa?

2. Someone told me that Florida had a much serious drug problem than
the rest of the country.  Reasons: a. The coast line is very long.
b. The weather is so nice that almost everybody can grow coke in their
backyard.(of course illegally).  Is Florida really that bad?

3. People said the life pace in Florida was sort of slow in comparison
to the rest of the country.  Is it really true?

4. Is the beach and city life too distractive to students?

5. Are the people pretty friendly over there?

I would like any inputs on the above questions.  Your answers are
greatly appreciated.  I plan to move to Florida right after the new year.
Thanks very much everyone in advance and happy holidays!!!!!


howard
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Newsgroups: soc.college
Subject: Re: Repost: Gift for friend joining fraternity?
Date: 4 Jan 93 01:31:01 GMT
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago

In article <1993Jan3.224452.28305@news.columbia.edu> jsl7@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (J. Shawn Landres) writes:
>Point well taken. It's just that I think Chapter Advisors need to be a little
>more on the ball than undergrads, and Scott should probably have thought about
>the impact of his suggestion -- especially with zealots like Ted looking for 
>any excuse to bash frat life.

I don't look for excuses.  Fraternities provide plenty of legitimate reasons
to "bash" (read: legitimately criticize) them without the need to search 
for excuses.

Ted "wondering when someone's going to flame Shawn for using the word 'frat'"
Frank
-- 
ted frank                     | thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu 
standard disclaimers          | void where prohibited
the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637
From: casseres@apple.com (David Casseres)
Newsgroups: soc.college
Subject: Tenant of English
Date: 21 Dec 92 23:23:55 GMT
Followup-To: soc.college,alt.usage.english
Organization: Apple Computer Inc.

In article <1992Dec16.162635.5438@seas.gwu.edu>, willson@seas.gwu.edu
(Stephen R. Willson) wrote:
> 
> In article <1992Dec16.151519.3485@bmerh85.bnr.ca> nadeau@bnr.ca (Rheal
> Nadeau) writes:
> 
> >Or, in Humpty Dumpty fashion, does a word mean just what you want it to
> >mean, no more and no less?  And anyone who doesn"t instantly realize
> >what you mean is, of course, prejudiced.
> 
> Isn't this a basic tenant of English? :-)

I've been a tenant of English all my life, but never thought of using that
term; it does have a certain poetry to it.

--

David Casseres
Exclaimer: Wow!
Newsgroups: soc.college