HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kludge@grissom.larc.nasa.gov (Scott Dorsey)
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
Subject: Re: homeopathy
Date: 29 Dec 1992 15:53:15 GMT
Organization: NASA Langley Research Center and Reptile Farm
NNTP-Posting-Host: grissom.larc.nasa.gov

In article <sandrock.725640765@aries> sandrock@aries.scs.uiuc.edu (Mark Sandrock) writes:
>lfoard@Turing.ORG (Lawrence C. Foard) writes:
>
>>The delutions I've heard of being used in homeopathic medicine don't leave
>>even a single molecule of the substance!
>
>>If there was some substance left then it would make sense to ask about
>>its effects.
>
>Let me see... "I don't understand how it can work, therefore it can't work!"
>How very "scientific" of a view. It's sure to impress many people nowadays!
>The same sort of argument is used to "refute" astrology as well.
>A convenient excuse for not considering the evidence, is all it is.


Well, we have a couple of problems with the arguments here.

First of all is the argument that many of the dilutions used in homeopathic
medicine would statistically have not a single molecule of the substance
originally diluted (assuming that one believed in the atomic theory).  Since
I have seen good evidence for the atomic theory and for matter not being
completely divisible, I have to agree with this one.  However, it is only
the two smallest dilutions for which this is the case.  So, for the majority
of homeopathic remedies, this isn't a problem.

Second of all is the point that the theory underlying homeopathic medicine
is absolute garbage.  I'll accept this point also, because it really doesn't
make a bit of sense when compared with a lot of other things that we know.

Now, it's possible that many of the remedies actually work, even though the
explanation behind why they work is absolute bunkum.  This is something which
I don't know about.  I have been told by people that many of the homeopathic
medicines actually do them good, though I have not seen any serious 
double-blind studies either way.  What's more important is that, since the
theory is worthless, we can't therefore assume that because one of the
medicines works (or does not work), that all of the others also work (or
don't work).  Therefore we would have to test each one of the possible
remedies in order to be sure that they did work, or that they did not do so.
When you have no valid theory to stand behind, you have to stand behind
empirical results (which are just as solid, just not as easily generalized).

Now, personally I don't use homeopathic medicine, because I have a great
problem with using anything whose mode of action is completely unknown.
Obviously, since I don't buy into the theory behind it, using the substances
which were developed with the theory is something that I would only do if
given good empirical proof that they work.

And, I haven't been given good empirical proof either way.  So I don't mind
your using the substances (so long as you don't use the two lowest dilutions
which I can assure you are worthless), so long as you don't mind my not 
using them.  And, as long as you accept the lack of reality behind the
usual explanations given.
--scott
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
Subject: Re: Midwifery
From: RGINZBERG@eagle.wesleyan.edu (Ruth Ginzberg)
Date: 31 Dec 92 09:37:15 EDT
Distribution: world
Organization: Philosophy Dept., Wesleyan University
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.20In-Reply-To: phoffman@orac.holonet.net's message of Thu, 31 Dec 1992 01:59:34 GMTLines: 59

In <C03pJA.Gny@iat.holonet.net> phoffman@orac.holonet.net writes:

> I too am interested in a discussion of midwifery. Are there any midwives
> out there? A good buddy of mine is studying to be a midwife, and she is
> now in an internship in Texas for a few months.

Probably the definitive work on alternative (lay) midwifery in the USA is Ina
May Gaskin's book, SPIRITUAL MIDWIFERY.  She is the head of midwifery and birth
education services on The Farm, a commune in Tennessee which was started by a
group of California hippies in the late 60's.  They have delivered over 1800
babies on The Farm now under Ina May's direction in the last 20-some years. 
Her book (1991 edition) is in its 3rd printing.

The Santa Cruz Birth Center also put out a very good book, THE BIRTH BOOK, in
the early 70's on alternative midwifery, but I think it is out of print now. 
Officially the Santa Cruz Birth Center is out-of-business now, having had a
run-in with the state of California re. "practicing medicine without a
license", but I do believe there is still a very active feminist women's health
care community in Santa Cruz wwhich (at least) had its roots in the Santa Cruz
Birth Center 20 years ago.

The journal, TEXAS MIDWIFERY, is published by

	The Association of Texas Midwives
	Suite 1A-202
	603 West 13th St.
	Austin, TX 78701

...who, I imagine, have info on midwifery apprenticeships in Texas.

Outside of Texas, but in other parts of North America, there is:

	Midwives Alliance of North America (MANA)
	P.O. Box 1121
	Bristol, VA  24203-1121

They publish the MANA NEWS, and can provide the addresses of state and
provincial midwifery organizations.

Ina May Gaskin still publishes THE BIRTH GAZETTE (a quarterly magazine).  It
costs $25(US)/year.  She can be reached at

	The Birth Gazette
	42, The Farm
	Summertown, TN  38483

For those interested in Nurse-Midwifery (a pretty distinct practice from that
of lay midwifery in North America), there is

	JOURNAL OF NURSE-MIDWIFERY
	Elsevier Scientific Publishing Co.
	52 Vanderbilt Ave.
	New York, NY  10017



------------------------
Ruth Ginzberg <rginzberg@eagle.wesleyan.edu>
Philosophy Department;Wesleyan University;USA
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: rxv9839@ritvax.isc.rit.edu (Bob Vogel)
Subject: eyes etc.
Reply-To: rxv9839@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 03:46:22 GMT

The "natural eye care (by the xyz{i forget} method etc.) is mentioned as a
possible discussion topic.  I would be most interested in a basic informatinal
possible discussion topic.  I would be most interested in a basic informatinalpost on this topic, about which I know nothing.  Eye care professionals seem to
feel that everyone will need glasses between 40-50 (perhaps a slight generalization) and I'm sure there must be some opposing viewpoints out there.
The reason for my interest is a most unusual occurrance.  I recently went to
motor vehicles to renew my license.  They hold a little paddle over each eye
while doing an eye test.  After the test my right eye was totally blurry
and would not focus for about 15 minutes.  Got an eye exam--doc said, no 
problem, not uncommon.  About 4 months later I lay on the bed for an houror two with my arm against my eye.  This time my eye was out of focus for about six
hours, coming back very slowly.  This occurance seems to be most abnormal.
Tried a second eye doc today--results the same no problems found now, may needglasses soon.  don't really know what it is.  Any observations or similiar experiences and even causes would be appreciated.  Rest assured in advance that I
will not take any comments as prescriptive and I am already and will contineu
in full consultation with my eye care professional.

Is there still a Society for Orthomolecular medicine in San Francisco??
Are doctors still associated with it??  They had some interest in mega-vitamin
therapy and such, I think.
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: kaminski@netcom.com (Peter Kaminski)
Subject: Re: Holistic dentistry (was Re: Welcome to....)
Organization: The Information Deli - via Netcom / San Jose, California
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 16:51:42 GMT

In <lcs2p1l@rpi.edu> night@acm.rpi.edu (Trip Martin) writes:

>What is holistic dentistry?  I've never heard of it, and am curious
>about it.

Basically, a dentist who's more holistic than others. :) That would
probably include more emphasis on diet, lifestyle, trying to keep
teeth in and whole, etc.

They're few and far between, from what I've seen.  Whenever I've asked
other alternative practitioners who they go to for dentistry, they'll
talk about somebody who "knows a little about alternative medicine",
or a young dentist who's ultra-high-tech, so at least s/he's using the
latest knowledge and technology.

I do have a really good book called "Natural Dental Wellness",
copyright 1980 by Soaring Bear.  It was published by Ninos del Sol,
2509 N. Campbell #262, Tucson AZ 85719.

Here are the main points -- you'd want to read the book for details on
these before taking them up.  I haven't followed much of the advice in
this book, mainly from inertia and not enough courage, but it all looks
like sound information.

This is not professional dental or medical advice, of course.  Consult
your own dentist or other health care professional.

From "Natural Dental Wellness -- summary of a painless program.
Copyright 1980 by Soaring Bear":

  No fillings, X-rays, drilling or root canals -- dental pulp can repair
  teeth.

  More cleaning: clean *thoroughly* at the end of the day with pick, floss,
  and by manipulating a natural fiber brushing stick in the mouth for a
  couple hours.

  More chewing of raw whole organically grown juicy fibrous fruits and
  veggies.

  More exercise, including jaw, tongue, lips, and whole body in clean air.

  Diet 1: More greens, the darker the better.

  Diet 2: Less processed and refined foods.

  Diet 3: More fresh fruits to replace sweets.

  Diet 4: More sesame yogurt, for nonanimal protein, minerals, and B
  vitamins.

  Herbs: natural treatments for dental emergencies (includes a long
  Materia Dentica).

  More love: positive mental attitude, light shining, service.

  Less metal -- wood utensils, chopsticks or fingers.

  Less smoking -- try herb tea instead.

Pete
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: horwath@rtsg.mot.com (George Horwath)
Subject: Re: Alternative Medicine Challenged, Modern Medicine Challenged
Organization: Motorola Inc., Cellular Infrastructure Group
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 20:08:38 GMT

jblackwo@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (J P Blackwood) writes:

>..........much deleted...............

>The medical industry is oriented towards trearting symptoms with drugs. It

Usually, the term "western medicine" is used, but even that should be
qualified somewhat. It seems that traditional medicine in the USA
depends on drugs and surgery, yet traditional medicine in other
western countries may include more. I'm thinking about Germany, in
particular. A german friend told me that she had back problems and
her regular doctor (i.e. traditional medicine) prescribed several
weeks at a resort which included daily massages and "moor baths".
As explained to me, a moor bath involves taking peat from a moor,
grinding it up and mixing it with very warm water. This sludge is
piped to tubs made for the purpose into which the patient sits.
She said that after the three weeks, her back problems vanished.
Apparently these "resorts" (kur ort) are quite common in Germany
and the stays are paid for by the socialized medicine system.

I guess I've got several questions/thoughts.....

1)Do any western nations that practice non-traditional medicine (in
  the US sense) have "proof" that this stuff works?

2)Is this just a cover for taking extra vacation at government expense?

3)Is this a hold-over from earlier days? Note that in the US, large
  resort towns grew around hot springs, but the large hotels, etc. are
  now pretty much defunct. Did doctors in by-gone days also prescribe
  a week at a hot spring resort for certain ailments? If so, why did this
  practice stop here but not in other countries, like Germany??

My friend swears by the treatment. Just thinking about it from a US
perspective is unbelievable. I mean what doctor would tell someone to
get massages and hot baths at a resort for a back problem. Let alone
getting an insurance company to pay for it :)

Comments anyone?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It is not the employer who pays the        |     Motorola
 wages - he only handles the money.         | I speak for myself,
 It is the customer who pays the wages."    |   not my employer
                             - Henry Ford   | horwath@rtsg.mot.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: rxv9839@ritvax.isc.rit.edu (Bob Vogel)
Subject: allopathy
Reply-To: rxv9839@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 04:04:38 GMT

OK for we dictionary poor people;
I gather from context that allopathy refers to regualr medical doctors
{that are so stuck in the mud they can't but see conventional medicne:-))}
Do I gather correctly?   Any relation to allelopathy, the suppression of
growth of one plant species by another due to the release of txic substances.
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: jsbus@netcom.com (JSB Corp)
Subject: Re: echinacea
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 20:32:33 GMT

tscwhitehead@cc.weber.edu (Clarke Whitehead) writes:

>In article <92356.220917LMACC@CUNYVM.BITNET>, Len Alshan <LMACC@CUNYVM.BITNET> writes...
>>Has anyone had any experiencing using echinacea.  If so, please tell me
>>type purchased (extract,power,pills) and dosage used.
>>Thanks
>>Len

>A couple of months ago, I was having probles with colds.  Through the
>HOLISTIC internet list, I heard about Echinacea.  I started loading up
>on Echinacea capsules and vitamin C and the colds soon disappeared.  I
>don't know what the dosage was, or how much can be attributed to the
>Echinacea vs. the vitamin C, but the combination seemed to help.

>Clarke
I agree with Clarke that echinacea seems like a really powerful healerr.
I have taken tea, caps and exxtract.  My favorite way is in an herb formula
called "Wellness Formula" that is fairly popular.  It has echinacea, vit C
and lots of other herbs.  It seems quite effective.

Some furhter comments:   There are two kinds of Echinacea:  The "purplea"
is less expensive and less powerful.  The second comment is that 
echinacea seems to be volume dependant:  Take the recommended dose, or more
for results.  Treat it like an anti biotic - take a full dose for a period
of time and then stop, rather then take a little bit each day, and you
will be pleasently surprised by the speed and effectiveness of this
wonderful herb.

Standard disclaimer - one man's opinion - 

Tom Wallace
tomwa@jsbus.com
From: bbl7597@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
Subject: Brain Machines
Date: 29 Dec 92 22:43:08 GMT
Reply-To: bbl7597@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology

I am looking to buy a brain machine to handle my stress. They claim
to induce alpha brain waves. Does anybody have any recommendations
or warnings. 
Bruce   
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: dlb@fanny.wash.inmet.com (David Barton)
Subject: Re: War cry of the scientific
Organization: Intermetrics Inc., Washington Division, USA
	<1992Dec24.010448.24145@news.mentorg.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 14:23:33 GMT

In article <1992Dec24.010448.24145@news.mentorg.com>
madhavn@madhavn.mentorg.com (Madhav Nerurkar) writes:

   Is there a simple decisive test in modern medicine that will
   determine if a given alternative theory has some merits ?

The term "simple" is relative; however, there are indeed fairly
standard mechanisms for determining the efficacy of a particular
substance or procedure on a specific condition.  The term "double
blind" test tends to be used to cover this (although this is one
procedure that is, admittedly, widely used).

   There can be significant lag, even of lifetimes, between empirical
   observations and an understanding of the underlying mechanisms.
   Without a test won't we either run the risk of passing up on real
   opprtunities or run the risk of taken in by a scam.

Indeed.  There seems to be some confusion in general about the need
for an underlying theory in the use of a particular medication or
procedure.  Many of the medications we now use have mechanisms that
are not well understood.  People just noticed, either within the
medical profession or outside it (sometimes in "alternative medicine")
that something seemed to work.  Upon application of controlled
studies, they are sometimes introduced into normal practice.

A reading of sci.med gives an interesting example.  A couple of
doctors on the net (I think David Nye is one of them) have observed
that acutane seems to help chronic fatigue syndrome.  Several
anecdotal accounts have been posted.  Dr. Nye does not immediately
state, "Everyone start using this!"  He recently posted that he is
preparing the proper notes so this observation may be published as a
speculation, and adequately tested.

This is how science works.

   If in fact such a test exists, is it applied to inventions in
   modern medicines or is it basically the prestige of the
   institutions that decides the outcome ?

In the US, the application of such a test is required for a claim of
efficacy to be made.  The institution that decides is the Food and
Drug Administration.

					Dave Barton
					dlb@hudson.wash.inmet.com
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: rxv9839@ritvax.isc.rit.edu (Bob Vogel)
Subject: Re: homeopathy
Reply-To: rxv9839@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 03:51:35 GMT

In article <schumach.725074807@convex.convex.com>, schumach@convex.com
 (Richard A. Schumacher) writes:
>In <1h8a3kINNk5q@grapevine.EBay.Sun.COM> greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM writes:
>>I'm certain that both TCM and homeopathy can successfully treat it [AIDS],
>>however I can not provide case studies.
>
>Not surprising. Be sure to post some when you find them.
>

In my humble opinion the above begins to border upon the <flames> type of
approach to posting response that it would seem from previous posts that our
creator and moderator is most anxious to avoid.  
Purely as an intellectual exercise {and since I do think the basic question has
merit} let us see if we can't rephrase the base concern less flameily and more
constructively.

Is your certainity that both TCM & homeopathy can successfully treat aids based
upon  a strongly held personal belief, anecedotal "medical" (just meaning
ancedotal would not be medicine in the scientific, case study sense) evidence
witnessed by yourself or others, or from some other source of conviction that
perhaps you would be willing to share with us?
From: kludge@grissom.larc.nasa.gov (Scott Dorsey)
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
Subject: Re: echinacea
Date: 22 Dec 1992 16:35:44 GMT
Organization: NASA Langley Research Center and Reptile Farm
NNTP-Posting-Host: grissom.larc.nasa.gov

In article <1992Dec22.141523.23772@welchgate.welch.jhu.edu> patty@welchgate.welch.jhu.edu (Patty Haley) writes:
>
>I use echinacea that is *NOT* distilled from alcohol--the liquid kind.

What do you mean?  You have three basic choices:

1. The dried herb.  You can buy it from Indiana Botanical Supply, or you
   can buy it (at extremely high prices) in capsules from a number of
   suppliers.  Or, you can grow it at home.

2. A tea made from the dried herb.  For echinacea this doesn't work well
   because the active ingredients aren't all that soluble in water.
   You can buy a concentrated infusion, which is effectively the same thing.

3. A tincture in alcohol.  Soak the herb (dried or fresh) in grain alcohol
   for a week or so, then pour off the dark fluid.

None of these are "distilled from alcohol."  The latter two are liquid.
--scott

For anyone interested, I recently took some plates of echinacea extract.
There are three large bands corresponding to alkaloids of some sort, lots
of different proteins, and some kind of sugar alcohol.  Since the sugar
alcohol is very soluble in water, I assume that's not the active ingredient
but I haven't started taking density sections yet to check out any of the
other ones.  If there's anyone else out there with decent electrophoresis
equipment I'd like to talk with them.
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: mrl@nerus.pfc.mit.edu
Subject: Experience/studies on GLA/Evening Primrose Oil?
Organization: MIT PLASMA FUSION CENTER
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 01:07:08 GMT

I was just curious if anyone out there is taking or have seen studies on the
usefulness of GLA (fatty acid in Evening Primrose Oil.)  My holistically
inclined MD loves to recommend it for all sorts of problems, and I wonder if it
really works, and if so why we don't hear of it more in medical literature.  My
wife takes it for PMS and to prevent breast cysts, but since she takes other
supplements, it's hard to say if it helps or not.  Luckily there is a cheaper
version of it now from Borage Oil, but I'm still curious.  Thanks.

Mark London
MRL@NERUS.PFC.MIT.EDU
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
From: lfoard@Turing.ORG (Lawrence C. Foard)
Subject: Re: homeopathy
Organization: The Turing Project, Public Access Internet Host
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 19:56:42 GMT

In article <1992Dec23.182340.23710@vexcel.com> dean@vexcel.com (Dean Alaska) writes:
>In article <1992Dec23.171758.3859@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> lfoard@Turing.ORG (Lawrence C. Foard) writes:
>>Yes. Its called avagodro's (sp?) number :-)
>>
>>The delutions I've heard of being used in homeopathic medicine don't leave
>>even a single molecule of the substance!
>>
>>If there was some substance left then it would make sense to ask about
>>its effects.
>
>The mistake in using this to dispute homeopathy is the assumption that
>homeopathic remedies "work" in a similar way to allopathic drugs.
>Homeopathic remedies for infections do not kill the bacteria, they
>reinforce the ability of the person's defensive capability to kill
>the bacteria.

I have no argument with this being possible, take a look at the discussions
about DNCB on sci.med.aids.

>One possibility is that the dilution process (which is more complex
>than just a simple dilution) modifies the matrix such that the
>immune system believes it is seeing the actual ingredient.  

If you can show that water can be modified in this way then you 
have a Nobel prize in physics (or maybe chemistry) coming.

>The
>exact operation of the immune system is still not known, so
>alternative methods cannot be discounted.  The theory behind
>Avogadro's number may challenge the part of homeopathy that involves
>the microdose, but it does not disprove it.  

A double blind trial would however. And since it would require completely
new physical laws to work I'd be hesitant to trust my life to homeopathy.

>Note also that the
>microdose is not central to homeopathy.  It was a later addition
>that was found to increase its effectiveness.  The Law of Similars
>is the foundation of homeopathy.

If it where not for the microdose stuff I think people would consider it
much more seriously. I suspect some non microdose homeopathic treatments
would work, however not all systems in the body are going to respond in 
the same way. 
A small amount of dead bacteria can protect you from disease, however a
small amount of lead will not protect you from lead poisoning.

-- 
------          Join the Pythagorean Reform Church!               .
\    /        Repent of your evil irrational numbers             . .
 \  /   and bean eating ways. Accept 10 into your heart!        . . .
  \/   Call the Pythagorean Reform Church BBS at 508-793-9568  . . . .
From: bugsy@theoasis.Corp.Sun.COM
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative
Subject: Jin Shin Jyutsu
Date: 30 Dec 1992 16:32:01 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: usa
Reply-To: bugsy@theoasis.Corp.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: theoasis.corp.sun.com

Does anyone have any knowledge about Jin Shin Jyutsu.  I suffer from
severe menstrual cramps, water retention and sluggishness.  Someone
told me that Jin Shin would help.  
Any suggestions???

Thanks
(sleepyhead)


Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative