HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: boylan@sltg04.ljo.dec.com (Steve Boylan)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,talk.religion.misc
Subject: Absolute Right and Wrong (was: Re: Tolerance of Others)
Date: 19 Nov 92 20:14:10 GMT
Reply-To: boylan@ljohub.enet.dec.com (Steve Boylan)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


I hope that the following is able to serve as a basis for discussion,
and not the trigger for another flame fest.  While I singled out
John's posting, that's only because he specifically mentioned the
topic which triggered this.  This is NOT a personal attack on John
or on his beliefs!!

In article <1992Nov18.214535.14730@tc.fluke.COM>, emery@tc.fluke.COM
(John Emery) writes:

> The point I would like to contribute to this discussion is that there
> must be an underlying principle other than tolerance by which one is
> judged.  Tolerance is neutral.  There are always things that each
> individual is tolerant of and intolerant of.  In other words, everyone
> is both tolerant and intolerant.  However, it is the underlying 
> principle of absolute right and wrong that is the issue.  Finding and
> upholding absolute truth I would think should be the measuring rod
> by which something is tolerated or intolerated.

What bothers me here is the idea that there is an "absolute truth", or
"absolute right and wrong".

Is there any such thing?

At the risk of re-igniting a previous flame war, let me recall a
discussion a few months back from alt.pagan - is killing another
person wrong?

The first item that comes to mind is the Biblical assertion, "Thou
Shalt Not Kill".  That seems to be a nice, simple, moral absolute,
no?

So what about the case where you are attacked by an armed assailant
who is clearly out to kill you, but you get a brief chance to kill
him instead.  Is killing him wrong?

How about if you discover an assailant attacking your family, and
all you can do to stop him will kill him?

Moving back closer to the subject that started this . . . Not to
attack John personally (but I need an example here), the way his
posting is worded, he implies that he is not tolerant of neo-Nazi
behavior or serial killers.  What, then, should we as members of
society do with regards to neo-Nazi behavior?  Announce that we will
no longer tolerate these beliefs?  Jail them?  Beat them?  Kill them?

If you assert that there is an absolute right and wrong, is there a
way to decide whether neo-Nazi behavior is either right or wrong?
If such behavior is wrong, then shouldn't we protect society by
removing the neo-Nazis from society?  What would be the best way to
remove such evil beings?  Should we hang them, or burn them at the
stake?

There was, of course, a time in the not-so-distant-past when someone
who espoused pagan beliefs or engaged in rituals now common among
Wiccans would have been deemed to be in the "absolute wrong" category,
and most likely hung.

Is there an absolute truth?  Is there an absolute right and wrong?  If
there is, how do we find it?  Who decides?

				- - Steve

				boylan@ljohub.enet.dec.com
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: L629159@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM
Subject: Re: Description of the Fetal Remains from an Abortion
Organization: Lockheed Missiles & Space Company, Inc.
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 21:05:16 GMT

(Material irrelevant to this group deleted...)

(Leaving nothing...)

Traditionally, honesty and forthrightness are well-regarded among
pagans.The missionaries who went to convert my ancestors almost
invariably commented on the scrupulous regard for truth, and the
rigid adherance to the terms of even informal verbal contracts among
those they went to convert.

If you want to teach me something, show me by example, and first
convince me that you are worthy of my respect.

Al Moore
From: system@korova.freeside.com (razorback)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Hate-Related Grafitti (was Re: X-trian Right Wingers Strike Agai
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 92 11:38:04 CST
Organization: VHF void tube of the mind (713) 492-2783

smithmc@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Lost Boy) writes:

> I'm a member of the Pagan Academic Network, the univeresity-sponsored 
> support group for Pagans, Witches, solitares, mystics, &c. Of course
> we've had our share of problems, but the latest is as follows:
> 
> As a University-sanctioned group we get to have a display set up in 
> one of the windows in Stewart Center. The display we set up, although
> rather extravagant, is effective and seems to represent everyone in 
> the group including the Christian element (myself and a couple others).
> However, this did not stop someone from scrawling "Jesus Saves" over
> the glass with a lipstick.
> 
> Does anyone have advice as to how we should handle this? Many of us
> are a little shaken by the incident.


write "people from scrawling all over displays that are more tolerant 
        than some christians are"

or get some windex.

**************************************************************************
        the official "i CANT BELIEVE its not a REAL POLITICIAN!!"
                                headquarters
me@korova.rivdell.com   *this human form/where i was born/i now repent*
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: delisle@eskimo.com (Ben Delisle)
Subject: Re: REPOST: Theocracy in America? 
Organization: -> ESKIMO NORTH (206) For-Ever <-
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 09:49:27 GMT

	Actually I received it from someone at Microsoft via
a local (WA) version of libernet. It came to them from yet another
maillist through another net. It certainly is making the rounds... 


--
UUCP old:        delisle@eskimo.celestial.com
Internet direct: delisle@eskimo.com

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: bsherman@acsu.buffalo.edu (Brian C. Sherman)
Newsgroups: sunyab.org.arsa,alt.pagan,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: Come to ARSA's meeting. Be Converted
Date: 18 Nov 92 00:05:49 GMT
Organization: UB

Bummer.  Yet again, I won't be able to make the meeting.  Friday is the
day that the new bookstore opens, and I have to work 4-11:30.  Ugh.  It
will *not* be a fun day.  Bleargh.

I hate to say it, but I don't think I'll be able to join in any ARSA stuff
anytime soon.  If there are things going on that aren't at the meeting time
(usually, I'll be on days, so evenings after 5 T,Th,F should be ok for what's
left of the semester) let me know.

This really sucks.  I enjoyed being with you all, but I need ca$h.  :(

                                 -Brian, who at least has discovered
                                  that the cash registers run under Unix.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: angelai@wam.umd.edu (Angela I.)
Subject: Re: Psychics and other related phenomena
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 01:21:17 GMT

Oops!  I keep forgetting to check the cross-posted newsgroups...
That post was just meant for alt.out-of-body...  (Great, now I'm
going to start a flame war in alt.paranormal, where all of the
alt.sci.skeptics are...)  :)  

Blessed be!
Angela

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: rks@cscns.com (Island's Child)
Subject: Open to Eagles Reaches
Organization: Community_News_Service
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 17:51:04 GMT

   I recently recieved a mailing from Eagles Reaches in which I was
asked to submit a fee for membership (if I so choose). That in itself
is not disturbing but something else *is*.

   Why do you need copies of people's birth certificates and copies of 
photo IDs. Is this for exclusionary purposes? And why do you need something
that includes the social security number of the applicant? This makes
me highly suspicious. Are you just plain elitist or are you gathering
intelligence for some reason?

   Why do you have people wear uniforms that indicate their rank? What 
kind of elitist crap is that? 

   This all strikes me as very *odd* -- certainly not the Asatru that
I understand or participate in! 

   Please answer to the newsgroup rather than private e-mail. I think
this may be of interest to other alt.pagan readers also. (Private e-mail
to me will be posted to the group.)

//rks
From: ksm@abb-sc.abb-sc.com (Ashley)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: That GUN flame --
Date: 20 Nov 92 17:37:35 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Kaos Laboratories


In article <57027@olivea.atc.olivetti.com>, gnome@flash.ATC.Olivetti.Com (Gary) writes...
>I've always found it funny that the people who are the least
>trusting in the government and it's actions also happen to
>be the most rabidly into gun control (banning.)
> 
(.....................)
> 
>Gary
> 

	Allright gun fans and owners and whatever name you like for your-self, 
let's try this one on for size. 

	I recently spoke by e-mail with someone at the FBI in Quantico VA. He 
suggested a method of gun control that makes sense (no not banning). All guns 
would be registered with a balistic test on file. I don't fully understand what 
all this involved, but I do understand that every gun leaves it's "fingerprint" 
on the bullet and casing when fired. Anyway, this would give law-enforcement 
the ability to trace the gun (if it was registered) when bullets and casings 
come up as evidence in a crime scene. Of course this is no good in most 
organized crime cases, but if your registered gun was stolen and then used in 
a crime in another state, that is a valuable clue to catching the criminal. You 
would know that the criminal had either bought the gun from the thief, or if it 
was used again in another crime, say a burgalary, you would know within a good 
percentage that you where looking for the same person in each case. Although 
this sounds wonderful, the "ballistic fingerprint" registration probably would 
not work in most crime investigations. But still it would in a few, and 
whatever evidence it gives is worth the registration and test firing, isn't it?


					- Ashley
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: rks@cscns.com (Island's Child)
Subject: Re: a potential problem for us all
Organization: Community_News_Service
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 19:07:12 GMT

alizard@pil writes:
: If anyone has any information on the American Center for Law and Justice
: (ACLJ, yes, it does sort of look like ACLU, that's deliberate), which is
: run by a branch of the 700 club, please contact me immediately.  These
: are the folks who provided legal counsel for Jeff Fenholt when Selena
: Fox recently went to court over his threats of harassment.
: 
: I need their address, phone number, and a citation of anything you happen
: to have read about them.

They have been involved in several creepy efforts, includng
prayer in schools, anti-abortion activities and similar stuff. One
can get on the mailing list (a very *good* idea -- to keep track of
what they are doing) by mailing to the address in Virginia Beach, VA
that is also for the 700 Club. One could also get more specifics by
looking at the 700 Club long enough to get their 800 number and 
call them. They will give you all the info you need. Just remain 
neutral -- which I know is hard -- and they open up about everything.

Yes, I have done it several times. ;-)
From: boylan@sltg04.ljo.dec.com (Steve Boylan)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Care & Feeding of Staves
Date: 16 Nov 92 21:37:25 GMT
Reply-To: boylan@ljohub.enet.dec.com (Steve Boylan)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


From a wood finishing perspective . . .

There are lots of things you can do to preserve and protect wood,
but most of them involve doing things like enveloping the wood in
a plastic shell - which is, I suspect, NOT what you have in mind
for something like a staff (or a wand).

I'd guess you want some kind of traditional, as-natural-as-possible
wood finish.  One option is shellac - the processed secretions of
the lac bug (I'm not kidding!  Real shellac comes from insects!).
However, one of the most common traditional, natural wood finishes
is an oil finish . . . which is produced by rubbing the wood with
a natural oil like tung oil or . . . linseed oil!

Now, the old-time wood finishers used what is called "boiled linseed
oil", where the oil is processed by heat.  That's not something you
want to try making yourself - the oil WILL burn - but you can buy
boiled linseed oil at hardware stores.

I seem to recall that you can get a harder, more durable finish by
adding beeswax, but I can't remember whether the beeswax will dissolve
in the linseed oil or not; you might have to use another solvent for
that.  I'll try to look that up tonight.

I like your choice of not using any steel on the wood;  while I might
choose to use a knife, myself, for cleaning and trimming (some of my
hand tools ARE ritual objects themselves!), I think that in creating a
magi[ck]al tool you're doing something very intimate and you SHOULD be
as involved with the wood as you can get.

Scraping and sanding a 48-inch staff may take you a while without
power tools, but I think you're going at it in a most appropriate
way (in other words, I like your attitude!).

I also liked Dawn's idea of using a scented oil, although that might
depend on how I was going to use the staff.  For walking in the woods,
it would feel out of place to me.  The scent might also be inappropriate
for a particular ritual, if you wanted to use your staff in such a 
setting.

	Now you've got me thinking "hmm, weren't there some downed
	limbs in the woods behind my friend's house?"

				- - Steve

				boylan@ljohub.enet.dec.com
From: nlp@pacvax.pacersoft.com (Nancy Pilsch)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Description of the Fetal Remains from an Abortion
Date: 20 Nov 92 21:54:02 GMT
Followup-To: alt.pagan
Distribution: na
Organization: Pacer Software, Inc.

In article <1992Nov19.001423.21994@ncsu.edu>, dsh@eceyv.ncsu.edu ( ) wrote:


What is the purpose of posting this?
From: holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Women and Men Witches
Date: 17 Nov 92 23:15:20 GMT
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
X-Posted-From: fnalno.fnal.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1eaiioINN8sr@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, bn566@cleveland.Freenet.Edu 
(Ward Chanley) writes:

> I know you were probably trying to make a joke; but it does dredge up the 
> tired stereotype of Gay men as mysogynistic.  Trust me, the reality
> is that most of the men who hate women are heterosexual.  Indeed, mysogyny 
> and homophobia often go hand in hand.

There is a difference between being misogynist and not thinking that women are
essential in a way that men are not.

I would expect that most misogynist men are Het, since most men are Het.  The
think to look at there would be percentages of population.

My experience with the Gay men I have known is that there is a range of
feelings, with you near one extreme and William Burroughs at the other.

-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
                                     | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,alt.paranormal,alt.out-of-body
From: angelai@wam.umd.edu (Angela I.)
Subject: Re: Part 2 of last posting
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 03:38:35 GMT

In article <92320.195021SWK105@psuvm.psu.edu> SWK105@psuvm.psu.edu (Stephen Kuhn) writes:
>Sorry about the vagueity of the last posting.  This is the proper one.  Rob
>and I apologize for our inappropriate outburst.  This subject can be
>frustrating to talk about.
>
>We would like to know about anyone out there who truly believes in any
>mystic abilities / psychic phenomena / unexplained occurances , etc.  We are
>interested in correspondance rather than net-posting.  We are able to be
>reached through this account, on the Astral Plane, the Spiritual Plane, or
>in person.  We have open minds and "we're ready to believe you!" Try either
>of us at the following addresses:
>

Yes, not only are there some poor deluded folks (like myself) who believe
in these things, but we are actually fairly adept at some aspects of it. :)

I am curious, though.  In the first post, the language sounded _incredibly_
hostile and closed-minded, and this post claims "we're ready to believe you."
Personally, I prefer a nice healthy middle ground, enough skepticism to
keep us sane, but open-minded enough to be willing & able to learn to do
things that we may not have thought possible at one time or another.  

As usual (for people who are familiar with me by now), I am making my
standard offer of essays on OBEs -- I wrote 2 essays about OBEs - one
generally explains what they are and the other describes several 
methods of inducing them.  I also have a Guided Imagery Exercise that
can be modified to use with a group or for personal attempts at inducing
OBEs.  And I have a "further reading" list which gives my opinions of
a few of the books I used for researching the other 3 items.
I would be happy to pass these 4 writeups along to you.  And of course,
email correspondence about them & about related subjects is welcome.

peace
Angela

angelai@wam.umd.edu
From: kumagic@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (Stephen R. Figgins)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Scummy behavior of pagan males
Date: 20 Nov 92 23:04:18 CST
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

In article <7q7FuB1w165w@alehaus%brewich.hou.tx.us>, liam@alehaus%brewich.hou.tx.us (liam) writes:
      >   a lot of stuff deleted.  that bandwidth thing you know. <

> You have been presenting the same arguement in v
> beginning of this thread. While you have indeed conceded a feww points, 
> you have inenevitably come back to your original point (ie. men are 
> scum).  For this I must applaud you on your reasoning being a prime 
> example of the circular logic that is so prevalent in the more 
> fundamentalistic areas of christianity. I will also add that you have 
> proven that you are rooted to this belief of yours and that this post 
> will probably have no more effect on your reasoning than a single sponge 
> has of absorbing all of the water in the universe at one attempt. In 
> short, I think that it is time to smile and back away slowly, folks.
>                                Blessed Be(you seem to need all the help 
> you can get),
>                                         Liam

I don't think you have been reading very closely Liam.  I do not think
that men are genetically inferior, nor genetically scum.  

I do think the society we have woven over the last 5000 years is
largely to blame, but I do not think individuals are blameless.  To
believ such sould be to deny our own power.  We do have the power to
change, but there is a lot there to change.  

I am very pleased with the discussion that I have generated.  I had
hoped to raise conciousness, and that may be happening.  I at least
wanted people to think about gender relations, and gender behavior as
it exists now, both inside and outside of the community.

The first thing you do before working magic is to create a safe space.
I would like to create some pagan safe space where men are not scummy.

She changes everything she touches and,
everything she touches changes. 

I think now is a good time for changes. 
-- 
___________________________________________________________________________

Stephen R. Figgins           |  There was an old woman
kumagic@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu   |  Who lived under the hill 
PO Box 1244                  |  And if she's not gone 
Lawrence, KS 66044	     |  She lives there still
___________________________________________________________________________
 
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: st923058@pip.cc.brandeis.edu (Jessica Raine)
Subject: replies
Reply-To: st923058@pip.cc.brandeis.edu
Organization: Brandeis University
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 21:07:44 GMT

	I forgot to say that my newsgroup access will be cut off indefinitely
as of next Tuesday or so, so replies to my question must be e-mailed to
st923058@pip.cc.brandeis.edu. Thanks!
					Jess
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Who are we kidding?
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 19 Nov 92 06:13:13 GMT

In article <1992Nov19.021352.25696@leela.cs.orst.edu> casspa@atlantis.CS.ORST.EDU (Paul Cass) writes:
>In article <2B0A8245.16232@news.service.uci.edu> cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>>
>>It's finished, people.  We're just not going to change in thirty years,
>>face up to it.  We're not the first evolutionary cul-de-sac that's ever
>>come down the pike.  The dice rolled, and we came out, and it just
>>didn't work out.  If we had 150 years or 200, maybe.  But we are NOT
>>GOING TO CHANGE IN TIME.  Think about it.  Do you honestly think that
>>today's 10-year olds are going to suddenly have this mass jump in
>>consciousness despite being reared by today's 40-year olds and rise up
>>as one and go back to living in thatched-roof houses or at least give up
>>their Nintendos long enough to find out what's happening?
>>
>>We just don't want to admit it because we can't imagine the Earth --
>>Goddess, whatever -- being around without us, its central and most
>>important children.  Get real.  We won't be the first evolutionary dead
>>end, and we won't be the last.  It's time to exit stage left and let
>>something else have a shot at it.  Right now, all I want to do is find
>>some quiet little island or something to live on so I can avoid as much
>>of the splat as I can when the shit finally hits the fan. 
>>
>>Janis
>> 
>>
>
>Janis; You just have to do something about this pollyanna attitude of
>yours. |B{)  Your article sounds like I felt after spending a summer
>of reading and researching environmental science.  It took the better
>part of a month to regain my equilibrium and to decide that if the
>biosphere was going to go down the shitter at least I wouldn't flush.

How did you?  I'm wondering and getting worried about how *I*'m going
to.  This just really knocked me for a loop and had me off-kilter for
the whole day; it still does.  I hope it doesn't last for a month, but I
wonder if it's ever going to go away. 

>I finally came to the realization that I needed to be active in 
>resisting environmental degradation.  Not to save humanity, not even
>to save the larger animals.  All life is the issue and life will 
>rebuild if the basics remain.  

Thank you.

Janis
From: key@soda.berkeley.edu (peter li'ir key)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Who are we kidding?
Date: 20 Nov 1992 15:34:53 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley, CS Undergraduate Association
NNTP-Posting-Host: soda.berkeley.edu

janis,

what are you mourning?  the end of humanity?  the end of life?  or the end
of society?

perhaps you mourn too soon?  perhaps you should mourn not at all?
or always?  everything we have experienced has been and, as far as
we know, is emphermal.  it passes away.  it may pass into oblivion
or it may pass into some other world.  but we don't know, in general.

admittedly humanity's future looks bleak.  but it is too soon to call it
over.  but then again it may truly be over.  in either case that is the
nature of things.  but we don't know the future.  we live in this
moment, regard the past, and plan for the future.  although not to well.
don't live in the future.  it is an unwritten place and can give birth
to great hopes or bleak nightmares or something between, but it is not
for us to live in.

i seriously doubt humanity for all it's vaunted technology could
completely sterilize the planet.

society changes.  and in changing it is not what it was, but it still is.

we often mourn the passing of the familiar.  but don't give in to the
despair.

i forget who wrote it, but here's a thought for you (badly paraphrased):
	sometimes the only fight worth fighting is a loosing one.

peter li'ir key
key@soda.berkeley.edu
Newsgroups: alt.pagan