HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cescript@mtu.edu (Charles Scripter)
Subject: Re: Guns, and the necessity to trust our governement.
Organization: Michigan Technological University
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 20:38:06 GMT

In article <1992Aug31.175646.28326@rhrk.uni-kl.de>, andrick@sun.rhrk.uni-kl.de
(Ulf Andrick) writes:

> 2778 was the the number of cases of murder and homicide investigated by the
> West-German police in 1985. The newest figure available to me is that of
> 1989, which is 2385. Unfortunately, they do not give the number of attempts
> any more, but the West German criminal statistics changed rather little 
> from 1985 to 1989.

I have reason to suspect the data I presented is from 1984, as the
list I pulled them from stated: "Sources: BWR84".  Unfortunately,
it looks as if the master reference list has lost this reference, 
so I can't give you pointers.  I'll point out the missing source,
and see if it can be added...

> But I think you can see, what my point was: figures do not necessarily tell
> everything, especiallly those quoted above. I was mainly concerned with the
> German figures, because I have the corresponding statistical material easily
> available.

I'll agree that published stats don't necessarily tell everything, but
for lack of other information, it will have to do.

> > >> -------------------  R A P E  -----------------
> > >>                                 PER         ABSOLUTE
> > >> RANK  COUNTRY                   100,000     NUMBERS
> > >> ====  ========================  =======     ========
> > >>    2  West Germany              77.49       48,075
> 
> [...]
> 
> Even in the rape/sexual duresse category, there are certainly many
> deeds which developped from situations, in which the woman would
> not have drawn a pistol (which is suggested below). 

This is *NOT* what I posted in response to.  The claim (made by Marc)
was that "...We agree that Europe has a lower criminality...", or
something equivalent.  *WE* don't agree.  The claim was false....

-- 
Charles Scripter   *   cescript@phy.mtu.edu
Dept of Physics, Michigan Technological University, Houghton, MI 49931
-------------------------------------------------------------------
With your one remaining eye, please do NOT look back into the laser
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: andy@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (Andy Freeman)
Subject: Re: Militia's and the right to keep and bear arms
Organization: /usr/lib/news/organizatoin
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 21:17:57 GMT

In article <81383@bcsaic.boeing.com> rwojcik@atc.boeing.com writes:
>In article 17dqkmINNqgq@agate.berkeley.edu, fcrary@ocf.berkeley.edu (Frank Crary) writes:
>You only make my case.  There was a debate over the need for militias and
>standing armies.  The federalists got their standing army and the anti-
>federalists their reference to militias.  It is perfectly reasonable to
>assume that the federalists were satisfied that the 2nd contained enough of
>a hedge with "well-regulated militia" to imply government control.  That
>language was necessary to gain compromise on the issue.

Interestingly enough, the actual legislative history of the 2nd
amendment diesagrees, as do the positions taken by the various parties
in the Federalist and anti-Federalist papers.  (While the notes of the
convention were to be ignored, the arguments used to get people to
accept the result are to be considered.  They tell us what the basis
for that acceptance was.)

We're still waiting for Wojcik to provide ANY evidence supporting
his "compromise" theory.

>>This is not true: The convention didn't have official minutes, but Madison
>>took detailed notes (he was, I believe, secretary for the concvention)
>>which were widely distributed and published.
>
>Again, you make my claim.  Madison had no authority to publish his notes as an
>official record.

What are you folks babbling about?  The 2nd amendment wasn't written
and debated during the constitutional convention.  It was ratified
through the same ratification process we have today.  That process
involves the senate and we do have records of that debate.  (The
Constitution REQUIRES such records.)  The closest thing to Wojcik's
position was REJECTED.

-andy
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Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns,soc.culture.usa,alt.society.civil-liberty
From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Subject: Re: Minolta CEO attacks US Second Amendment
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 05:28:13 GMT

In <92239.16203234AEJ7D@CMUVM.BITNET> <34AEJ7D@CMUVM.BITNET> writes:

>Sam Kusumoto, chairman and CEO of Minolta Corporation is quoted
>in  _The Clarion-Ledger_ of Jackson, Miss., as follows,
>according to a story by Dan Davis:

>     "We don't know why the American government still
>      permits people to possess a gun. The country that
>      teaches Western civilization to Japanese still
>      permits people to carry guns. This we do not
>      understand."

>I'll remember your comments next time I'm shopping for any
>product made by Minolta. Personally, I think you may still
>have a bit left to learn about "Western civilization".

	Not being one likely to buy a Minolta product in the near
future, I'm willing to believe he means what he says, "We do not
understand."  There are numerous examples in fuedal Japan of the
peasants (not allowed certain "noble" weapons like swords) rising
up and being crushed or successful.  The martial arts types will
note that many of the "traditional" weapons were actually the
implements of farmers at one time (sort of like my musket and
corn knife, a rather utilitarian version of the machete).  It is
not a great leap of logic and comparison to make this connection,
and while cultural differences exist perhaps the acceptance of the
"USA" culture is enough to show why these comparisons are valid.

	If they doubt, they need only ask why the Japanese still
maintain their own small army, despite the USA being held responsible
for looking out for them.  We are two entirely different cultures, but
historically we hold common lessons, fears, and even some beliefs.

	Japan has come quite a ways in the last fifty years.  Let's not
assume that Sam Kusumoto represents the beliefs of all Japanese citizens
any more than "Granny" from Dipstick, Kentucky really believes "South will
rise again!"  By the same token, the old lady who asked me how long I'd
been in the Confederate Navy either needs to know South lost a long time
ago, or needs to know that the Confederate Navy doesn't wear dress blues
to a funeral.

<Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 |"There'll be angels on Ariels in leather>
<z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu | and chrome, Ridin' down from heaven    >
<viking@iastate.edu      | just to carry me home." -- R. Thompson >
< ISU thinks I need more education, which they provide for a fee. >
From: nigel.allen@canrem.com (nigel allen)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: brady bill
Date: 2 Sep 92 00:46:56 GMT
Reply-To: "nigel allen" <nigel.allen@canrem.com>
Distribution: talk
Organization: Canada Remote Systems

Here is a press release from Handgun Control Inc.

 National Campaign Launched to "Free the Brady Bill," Calls on
Senate to Break Gridlock
 To: National Desk
 Contact: Susan Whitmore of Handgun Control Inc., 202-898-0792

   WASHINGTON, Aug. 31 /U.S. Newswire/ -- Hundreds of concerned
Americans will begin a national drive tomorrow to "Free the Brady
Bill" from the Congressional gridlock that has outraged the nation
and obstructed passage of this vital bill.
   In a dozen major cities, business, civic, religious, police,
medical and civil rights leaders from coast to coast will join Sarah
and Jim Brady in an unprecedented kick-off of a campaign to shake the
national handgun waiting period bill free from the omnibus crime
bill, and send it directly to President Bush.
   Kick-off news conferences will be held across the country, from
Atlanta with Sarah Brady and Coretta Scott King, to New York with Jim
Brady and Mayor Dinkins, to Los Angeles with Mayor Tom Bradley.  The
Atlanta press conference will be held in the King Center's Freedom
Hall, 449 Auburn Ave., at 10 a.m.  The New York event will take,
place at 11:30 a.m. on the steps of City Hall.
   News conferences will also be held Tuesday in San Diego, Calif.;
Spokane, Wash.; Albuquerque, N.M.; Kansas City, Kan.; Chicago;
Charleston, S.C.; Boston; Lewiston, Maine; and Houston.  The campaign
will continue with events throughout September.
   "Lives are too precious to be held hostage to partisan politics.
And the Brady Bill is too important to be held hostage to
congressional gridlock.  Across America, lawmakers will hear our
call: Free the Brady Bill from the Crime Bill, and enact it now!"
   This national campaign begins on the heels of the release of FBI
crime data Saturday which revealed a 4 percent increase in homicide
between 1990 and 1991.
   The initial dozen news conferences will begin the drive to force
the Senate to act on the Brady Bill before adjournment of the 102nd
Congress.  The Brady Bill passed the House and Senate last summer,
but awaits final Senate action as part of a pending crime bill.
 -30-
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario/Detroit, MI
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
Xref: sparky talk.politics.guns:20338 alt.politics.clinton:3493 alt.politics.bush:3477
From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.bush
Subject: Re: Clinton's Gestapo/Plan for takeover
Date: 30 Aug 92 06:37:25 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA

fcrary@ocf.berkeley.edu (Frank Crary) writes:

>It really doesn't matter if Clinton would do anything objectionable with a
>"National Police Force." If elected, he would establish one (loyal and
>responsible to whom? He hasn't said. We would certainly have less control
>over it, than the residents of Los Angelos have over the LAPD.)

	One might do well to consider that the federal government cannot be
sued except when they allow it.  A petetion for a redress of grievances is
not a guarantee that you will get them.  How do you make this federal force
accountable for its actions?

<Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 |"There'll be angels on Ariels in leather>
<z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu | and chrome, Ridin' down from heaven    >
<viking@iastate.edu      | just to carry me home." -- R. Thompson >
< ISU thinks I need more education, which they provide for a fee. >
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: lvc@cbnews.cb.att.com (Larry Cipriani)
Subject: Re: Rock Island & Dalton Cases
Organization: Ideology Busters, Inc.
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 16:22:47 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.110330.24652@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> bb063@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Christopher J. Crobaugh) writes:
>
>Some thoughts on some relatively recent court cases regarding
>the RKBA. Take a look.
>...

The following was in the 9/92 issue of Machine Gun News:

The Forms, by Dan Shea

"I got the response from Wayne Miller, Chief of the National Firearms Act
Branch, BATF, in regard to the Dalton case.  Those who remember from the
last issue of The Forms, in the US v. Dalton, (Tenth Circuit Court of
Appeals, #91-1149) the court ruled that since the Federal government
stopped collecting transfer tax on newly manufactured machine guns in 1986
(922.0), they no longer have any authority over post 1986 machine guns.
This ruling was based on the fact that Congress' power to regulate these
firearms is based in tax-collecting, they are constitutioanlly forbidden to
engage in gun control.

"Contrary to anti-gun propaganda - the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled several
times that the Federal government may not engage in gun control.  In the
Sozinski case in 1936, the court made it clear that the only way Congress
could register the NFA weapons, was by imposing a tax on their sale, and
collecting information as a by-product.  The Gun Control Act of 1968 was
based on control of interstate commerce, not firearms.

"Mr.  Miller's letter made it clear that BATF is not going to just role
[sic] over and go back to Pre-86 regulations.  They feel that since they
still collect excise tax on Post-86 machine guns, they are collecting tax. 
Regardless that the trax authority was created with transfer tax in mind,
and that FET is for "Sporting Firearms", whatever they are.  I still hold
that if we keep at it for four or five years, we may overturn the 1986 Ban.
-- 
Larry Cipriani, att!cbvox1!lvc or lvc@cbvox1.att.com
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns,soc.culture.french
From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Subject: Re: Guns, and the necessity to trust our governement.
Keywords: guns and fascism
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1992 03:15:33 GMT

marcmil@microsoft.com (Marc Milanini) writes:

> viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:
>>marcmil@microsoft.com (Marc Milanini) writes:
>>>Whereas in the USA, you can buy M16s by reading ads in the newspapers.
>>
>>	On this point you are terribly misinformed.  Not only can you
>>not buy an M16, you can't even find one for sale in the ads of a newspaper.
>>Go ahead, look.  No class III dealer advertises in the newspapers.  His
>>audience needs to be other class III dealers, not John Q. Public.

>Yeah, that's what I did. See my other message to know what I found.

	I suspect that either 1) he was a class III dealer and figured
the newspaper was a good way to advertise (though I find this suspect),
or 2) the person had an AR-15, Uzi semi-auto, M14 in semi-auto (what's
the designation for that?  I forget), and that the SKS was semi-auto as
well.  If this is wrong, I'm sure BATF has already taken an interest.
Sounds like the "genu-whine '63 Corvette with 5000 miles, only driven
on Sunday's by a little old lady" ads of legend.

>>	Neither of which has anything to do with being able to purchase,
>>or not purchase, M16's from the for sale ads in a newspaper.

>Not directly of course, since M16s are very seldom used in gun crimes.
>How do you expect gangsters not to be able to buy weapons if regular
>citizens are allowed to do so ?

	I don't.  I expect gangsters to buy whatever I can until they
are convicted of a crime that shows they will violate the rights of
others in the exercising of their own, at which time it is legal and
justifiable to restrict those rights to them.  I find this claim to
be interesting, since some have told me gangsters have automatic
weapons and yet that I cannot have them.  Why?  If they have them,
why can't I?  The only conclusion is that having an automatic weapon
make one a gangster somehow, and I note I wasn't a gangster when I
was carrying an honest-to-God M16, nor are Swiss citizens gansters
despite having better weapons in their homes.  Somebody's lying to me.

<Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 |"There'll be angels on Ariels in leather>
<z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu | and chrome, Ridin' down from heaven    >
<viking@iastate.edu      | just to carry me home." -- R. Thompson >
< ISU thinks I need more education, which they provide for a fee. >

Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: bobwest%code3@uunet.UU.NET (Bob Westover)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Why a sawed-off shotgun?
Date: 25 Aug 92 21:20:21 GMT
Organization: 3M HIS

In article <viking.714716706@vincent1.iastate.edu> viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:
#tas@inmet.camb.inmet.com (Tom Sprott) writes:
#
##Mr. Weaver (the fugitive ........ 

It has come to my attention that Mr Weaver's "crime" was having a shotgun
barrel too short by *** .1 inch ***. Certainly justification for all the
bloodshed that has and will occur over the matter. [sarcasm off]

--
##############################################################################
"A gun is only a tool, no better, no worse than the one using it.".......Shane
##############################################################################
-- 
 There was a young man from Dwight ....... |        bobwest@code3.code3.com
 Who traveled faster than light; ......... | Gluecklichkeit ist Recht haben!  
 Taking a trip one day, in a relative way, |      Freiheit ist Rechte haben! 
 He arrived the previous night! .......... | Legalize Updoc!!!         ...bw
From: wolfgang@wsrcc.com (Wolfgang S. Rupprecht)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Gun control (was Re: democratic platform)
Date: 28 Aug 92 18:17:21 GMT
Organization: W S Rupprecht Computer Consulting, Fremont CA

sybok@athena.mit.edu (The Rifleman) writes:
>As commonly used by our friend Colonel Cooper, a hoplophobe is one
>who fears guns.

And what does Cooper have to say about folks that hide behind aliases?

>(I must say I'm not surprised to see that Lambert has taken it upon
>himself to never let the world forget I was "The Terminator".  Let
>those who would discredit me know; I speak only for myself.)

You speak for a faceless nameless shadow that used to call itself "The
Terminator" and now calls itself "The Rifleman".

-wolfgang
-- 
Wolfgang Rupprecht    wolfgang@wsrcc.com (or) decwrl!wsrcc!wolfgang
Snail Mail:           39469 Gallaudet Drive, Fremont, CA 94538-4511
=================== Read my lips; No new term! ====================
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: cescript@mtu.edu (Charles Scripter)
Subject: Re: Political Assasinations (Was: No charges filed in SWAT killing)
Organization: Michigan Technological University
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 19:52:15 GMT

In article <4400229@iftccu.boeing.com>, bressler@iftccu.boeing.com
(Rick Bressler) writes:

> / iftccu:talk.politics.guns / jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond) /  2:53 pm
>  Aug 20, 1992 /
> cescript@mtu.edu (Charles Scripter) writes:

One could be confused as to the author of the following.  I didn't write
any of this. (I think Rick was responding to John's response to my post).

> >Of course, this requires real police work, not the gun-happy, cowboy,
> >kill-'em-all,let-God-sort-'em-out mentality rampant today.  If you think
> >I'm kidding, find a way to sit in a ready room sometime and listen
> >to these goons talk about getting horny during and after a raid.

-- 
Charles Scripter   *   cescript@phy.mtu.edu
Dept of Physics, Michigan Technological University, Houghton, MI 49931
-------------------------------------------------------------------
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Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: sybok@athena.mit.edu (The Rifleman)
Subject: Re: Bad weather in Florida
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 02:21:37 GMT

In article <1992Aug25.141737.23630@stortek.com> vojak@icebucket.stortek.com 
(Bill Vojak) writes:
>When CBS said that Dan Rather was live in Florida riding out
>the storm, I was hoping that a building would fall on him.
>No such luck.  Maybe they will send him to New Orleans and
>we will have one more chance!

Oh, come now.  The Devil's not going to kill his right-hand man, his
favorite disciple!  :-}
From: gt1111a@prism.gatech.EDU (Vincent Fox)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Gun control (was Re: democratic platform)
Date: 23 Aug 92 23:55:35 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology

In <1684CFE35.PA146008@utkvm1.utk.edu> PA146008@utkvm1.utk.edu (David Veal) writes:
>In article <183162@pyramid.pyramid.com>
]glambert@pyramid.com (George Lambert) writes:
]]They were certainly unarmed before the coup started.  Seems that when they
]]needed 'em, they found a way to get 'em.  However, the big weapons against
]]this coup were: faxes, TV, radio, telephone and an unwillingness on a large
]]part of the military forces to engage (slaughter) their own people.  Don't
]]you think that a better networked, more open society (such as the US as
]]compared to exUSSR) would benefit from those same weapons to a far greater
]]degree than the citizens of the Soviet Union?

>     Perhaps, perhaps not.  It is not something I feel the need to gamble
>on.

Hmm. To take David's point a bit further....

One could say that communications is *one* of the weapons people use against
their own governments. I agree with this, and think that a well-educated
and informed populace are the best weapon against governments. However, while
it is *possible* for a table to stand with 1 leg, assuming good balance
and no vibrations to start it falling, it is better to have 3 legs or more.

No one here would argue that armed civilians are the primary deterrent against
tyrannical government. However, they are an invaluable last resort. Much
like with the military, the point is not actually to be ready and eager
to fight some war. The point is to prevent it from happening by making
potential agressors think twice.

-- 
The War on Drugs is just part of the War on the US Constitution. 
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns,soc.culture.french
From: andy@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (Andy Freeman)
Subject: Re: Guns, and the necessity to trust our governement.
Organization: /usr/lib/news/organizatoin
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 19:53:26 GMT

In article <la65itINNb1k@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> claude@isle.Eng.Sun.COM (Claude Manoit) writes:
>To which extent can a local/county/state gun-control law be enforced (by 
>that I mean preventing the law from being broken) in United States since 
>it is so easy to go from one locality/county/state to the other and carry
>weapons around? For example how efficient is a law in NY city stricter 
>than say NY state? (the exemple is not supposed to be correct).
>I'm sure this issue has been addressed by the relevant legislative branch
>somehow. I just don't remember having seen the rational.

There are laws against interstate sales; you can't legally buy a gun
in Nevada and no legit seller will sell one to you.

Note that smuggling occurs across EVERY border in the US, not just
those between states.  It isn't obvious that a national law can work;
the drug war fails every day.

-andy
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Xref: sparky talk.politics.guns:20463 soc.culture.french:6417
From: mpetro@brtph126.bnr.ca (Myron Petro P030)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns,soc.culture.french
Subject: Re: Guns, and the necessity to trust our governement.
Date: 2 Sep 92 16:05:27 GMT
Organization: BNR, Inc. Research Triangle Park, NC


 Somebody wrote the following (sorry I lost track of original 
sender and I'm not trying to flame anyone just to raise a few
points)
>Mr Nosy, I saw an ad for a M16 in a Alaskan newspaper. Maybe this is
>a felony if I decide to buy it without going through all the process
>that you describe, but the fact is: I can buy it if I want to.

 Two points about this come to mind:
 1. This could be a BATF/police  set-up they do this constantly with
    drug buyers. hint: I think entrapment is a thing of the past.

 2. Any one can put an add in the paper (HCI) then use the add to fuel
    the anti-gun frenzy at a rally
 
 
    Myron
  NRA, IPSC


 ***************************************************************

 The opinions included in this post are my sole responsibility.
 And are protected by the First Ammendment and guarnteed by the 
 Second.   
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: andy@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (Andy Freeman)
Subject: Re: Gun control in California
Keywords: n
Organization: nope
Distribution: ca
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 21:41:05 GMT

In article <71613@apple.Apple.COM> vossron@Apple.COM (Ronald N. Voss) writes:
>andy@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (Andy Freeman) writes:
>>Voss disagrees.  He thinks that a gun law succeeded if a fatal
>>shooting is replaced by a fatal stabbing.
>
>Right.  They'll switch to drive-by stabbings.

Or maybe they'll just drive over their targets.  That's likely to
kill more people.  Oops.

Maybe they'll just wait until they have an opportunity to stab them.
Maybe they'll jump out of the car and drag the victim into it to
create that opportunity.

Note that Voss is evading the evidence showing that gun control
doesn't result in fewer murders.  Instead he assumes that it will
cause a useful substitution of weapon (but not of tactics) and that
something good will happen.  Maybe substitution happens, or maybe it
doesn't, but the murder rate doesn't change.

-andy
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Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns