HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT vs Mac, Whats the difference?
From: athomson@otago.ac.nz (Alastair Thomson)
Date: 24 Dec 92 10:03:03 +1300
Organization: University of Otago, Dunedin, New Zealand

> 
> 	Has anyone got the low down on whether the release
> 	shrinkwrap ~$900 version of NS486 will include these tools,
> 	or will you have to buy the $2200 developer version?  
> 
> 	I hope it'll be in the release version.  At $900, it's sure
> 	to have a hard time--at $2200 it's sureto be a failure.

From what my contacts at NeXT will tell me (Which isn't much!) you will have to
spend $2,200. But as my main point in the original post was, IMHO NeXT are *not*
aiming NS486 at the small user, it is aimed at corporates, notably those that
may use Win NT. NT certainly ins't aimed at small time users.
> 
> 
>>2. I will soon be able to run my NeXTstep apps on a PC system with NS486.
> 
> 
> 	Believe it when you see it.  NS486, sure--but will NS486 run
> 	DOS and win apps?  At this point, who knows?
> 
The point is Fat Binaries, most current NeXT developers are going to do the
relatively trivial job of moving to NS486.

As far as DOS and Windoze support goes, NeXT own FAQ says that it will, but
that they haven't decided how to package it. My guess is that it will be an add
on. It will however run Windoze apps at the same speed or faster! (or so they
say!) as Windoze does it self. They have apparently implemented the GDI
directly for it rather than running thru DPS.
> 
===============================================================================
                                    |
Alastair Thomson,                   | Phone +64-3-479-8347
University of Otago,                | Fax   +64-3-479-8529
Department of Computer Science,     | e-mail athomson@otago.ac.nz
P.O. Box 56                         |
Dunedin                             |
New Zealand                         |

===============================================================================
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: edwardj@microsoft.com (Edward Jung)
Subject: Re: End of the Year (was Re: End of NeXT)
Date: 01 Jan 93 04:40:49 GMT
Organization: Strategy Division, Microsoft Corp.
Keywords: friendly sarcasm acknowledged

Robert_La_Ferla@hot.com writes:

[many good examples of problems in Windows listed]

Yep, Windows has problems. But "addressing customer needs" means
we try to fix them. Some, like the hardware issues you listed,
are hard for us to fix, but we are working on them with hardware
vendors to get the kind of plug and play hardware users deserve.
We also worked hard on the Unrecoverable Application Error
problem alot for Win3.1, and more for NT (where the Window
server is protected on a per-client process basis so the UI
doesn't hang). We are also working on what I call the "error
manager of death" ;-) for a future system that can assist in 
configuration and error resolution using well-known expert
system techniques.

I could go on; it is very easy to point out problems in an OS,
especially one that has millions of users who bang on it every
day. But MS has an enormous database of user requests and
complaints that directly drive the feature set of the next
products. Often this results in complex products with rich
features (witness the applications from Microsoft), but as
we focus more on usability, I hope this too will improve.

If you can find a company that puts more emphasis on delivering
what the customers are asking for, then they deserve alot of
credit. Note also that I confess that this is not the best
way to create truly innovative product... and that bothers
me too! I have to struggle to push innovation into products
over the MS mantra of "only do what the customer asks"...

Anyhow, to quote a writer, "Don't try to teach your grandpa
how to chew cheese" ;-) I am very familiar with NeXT software
and have a tremendous amount of respect for it. Believe me,
I know there are many things that are very nice about it, and
I spent a few years of my life trying to improve it.

Maybe there is nothing for NeXT to learn from Windows. I
certainly don't see many NeXT architects hanging around
learning about what MS is doing... but then again, most of
the NeXT architects I knew aren't at NeXT any more.

---
Edward Jung, Software Architect     edwardj@microsoft.com
Advanced Systems, Microsoft Corp.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: rsrodger@wam.umd.edu (Yamanari)
Subject: Re: NeXT vs Mac, Whats the difference?
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 14:22:01 GMT

In article <1992Dec22.162810.451@otago.ac.nz> athomson@otago.ac.nz (Alastair Thomson) writes:

	Just an aside and a question...

>1. NeXT has a great (possibly best around) development tools.


	Has anyone got the low down on whether the release
	shrinkwrap ~$900 version of NS486 will include these tools,
	or will you have to buy the $2200 developer version?  

	I hope it'll be in the release version.  At $900, it's sure
	to have a hard time--at $2200 it's sureto be a failure.


>2. I will soon be able to run my NeXTstep apps on a PC system with NS486.


	Believe it when you see it.  NS486, sure--but will NS486 run
	DOS and win apps?  At this point, who knows?


>===============================================================================
>                                    |
>Alastair Thomson,                   | Phone +64-3-479-8347
>University of Otago,                | Fax   +64-3-479-8529
>Department of Computer Science,     | e-mail athomson@otago.ac.nz
>P.O. Box 56                         |
>Dunedin                             |
>New Zealand                         |
>
>===============================================================================
>The opinions expressed here are my own, not my employers, not my wifes, not
>cats, nor anyone elses. If you don't like them, then tell lets talk about it.
>
>-- 
>===============================================================================
>                                    |
>Alastair Thomson,                   | Phone +64-3-479-8347
>University of Otago,                | Fax   +64-3-479-8529
>Department of Computer Science,     | e-mail athomson@otago.ac.nz
>P.O. Box 56                         |
>Dunedin                             |
>New Zealand                         |
>
>===============================================================================


-- 
	"If you can't eat sand, why the hell are you living in a desert?"

	     Rule 1:  "Don't have more children than you can feed."
	  	  Nuclear redevelopment for a better world!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: rsrodger@wam.umd.edu (Yamanari)
Subject: Re: End of NeXT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 05:15:39 GMT

In article <1992Dec23.010923.3689@mercury.cair.du.edu> lbrahm@denver.cba.du.edu (Lans Brahmantyo) writes:
>Hmm, ... I thought Jobs has been the keynote speaker in several important  
>computer exhibitions and shows this year! I must say that he is gaining  
>credibility with his Object-Oriented stuffs and NeXTSTEP 486. Perhaps, your  


	Pretty interesting considering NS486 is still vapor.  Bout
	as realistic as Bill Gates giving a lecture on Microkernals
	based on his background in NT (which, so I've heard, is minimal).

	Which is not to say the latter wont happen (or hasn't already).


>friend's mind was not logical enough for me to understand (or may be because  
>he/she uses DOS/Windows ... if so that's nothing new. They are so stuck that  
>they cannot see which one is logical, like: copy a:*.* c: instead of drag and  
>drop ... or perhaps he/she becomes too smart?)


	Drag and drop is unbelievably slow for mass file management.  Even
	on the NeXT.


>Well, may be after being fully owned by Japanese, it will sell better like  
>Japanse cars and electronics. I don't mind at all! Personally, I would rather  
>care about who makes what or where it is made as long as they are superior  
>product,I'll take it. American products lost the battle in cars, electronics,  
>and manymore to come ... Face it. Most Japanese products are currently just  
>superior and I have no complaint or worries even about NeXT's future. It just  
>works ... simply and logically!

	Perhaps the words "economic colony" don't mean much to you.  


-- 
	"If you can't eat sand, why the hell are you living in a desert?"

	     Rule 1:  "Don't have more children than you can feed."
	  	  Nuclear redevelopment for a better world!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: rsrodger@wam.umd.edu (Yamanari)
Subject: Re: Portable NeXT?
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 20:49:54 GMT

In article <Dec31.203224.42773@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> ns111310@longs.lance.colostate.edu writes:
>What looks better (to me) are the "Personal Data Assistants" [NOT from 
>Apple, since I don't think that they will ship for quite a while], but
>AT&T is putting out the "EO" 440 and 880 portables, pen based, runs the
>"PenPoint" OS from GO Systems, and the 440 has a screen resolution of
>110 dpi!!!  that's pretty good.  They offer internal modems, keyboard
>ports, PCMCIA cards (1 in the 440 and 2 in the 880), the AT&T Hobbit
>(nice name) processor, and sone neeto junk.  They are a tad expensive,
>(over $2,500, I think).  The info I have is from the new MacUser mag.


	I wonder if they have figured out how much more appealing
	ruggedness would be than just the latest sexy processor.


-- 
	Blaming society for your problems is like blaming clouds for rain.
	         ---  Boycott == censorship == cowardice  ---
	Do I even need to point out that my views do not represent
	those of my employer, institution or relations?
From: rsrodger@wam.umd.edu (Yamanari)
Subject: Re: End of NeXT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1992 14:37:26 GMT

In article <1992Dec24.210903.15719@cuug.ab.ca> wilcoxt@cuug.ab.ca (Terrance Wilcox 229-3361) writes:
>In article <1992Dec22.040523.2598@wam.umd.edu> rsrodger@wam.umd.edu (Yamanari) writes:
>>
>>	Pardon, but doesn't Canon already own more than 50% of NeXT?
>
>No, closer to 20%. Jobs still owns 46%.
>>
>>
>>	The day NeXT becomes a wholly Japanese owned company is the 
>>	day I start rabidly campaigning for Windows NT.  Not that NeXT
>>	has exactly been the users friend ("Hey, let's design our
>>	machines without parallel ports, sell a brainless laser engine
>>	and paper feed in a box and make it impossible for users to 
>>	buy much more powerful printers for themselves!!"  -- re: 
>>	NeXT $1000+ "dumb" printer vs. just about any printer in the 
>>	last 4 years), and not to be xenophobic or paranoid or anything,
>>	but we are already in a pretty bad way and don't need our software
>>	industry's jewels going overseas as well.
>>
>I've got to ask. Why do I need a parallel port? Why do I need more than a 
>brainless printer? As it is, I've got a fast 400 DPI laser. That's better 
>than most PC users, and they have parallel ports and intelligent printer.
>All they have to worry about is drivers and cables and incompatibilities and
>font cartridges...


	Hewlett Packard LaserJet 4M Postscript Level two < $2500.

	600 dpi, 8 ppm.

	No processor time sucking.

	Still think the NeXT laser is a good deal?  Then consider:
 
	HP LJ4 (not PS) + 4 megs: $1500 
	ghostscript (free)
	== postscript 600 dpi for $400 more than the NeXT edu price.

	NeXT designed their systems so that adding non-next peripherals
	(who else would be dense enough to make a printer that can only
	hook to a NeXT??) is either impossible, or agonizing.  A parallel
	port (which would add, what, 30 cents to the cost of the machine?)
	would have opened the doors to printers that are arriving now.
	By the end of '93, those lowly PC users will be buying fast
	600 dpi printers for about $1000 to $1200. 

>
>Terry Wilcox
>
>PS. I forget emulation and TrueType and all that crap.
>


-- 
       "If you can't eat sand, why the hell are you living in a desert?"

     Equality is a delusion, suffering is a fairy tale and God is a fantasy.
       Blaming society for inequality is like blaming the sky for rain.
From: dillon@overload.Berkeley.CA.US (Matthew Dillon)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re:   100 Mips Intel NeXT (moved from comp.sys.next.misc)
Distribution: world
Date: 22 Dec 92 19:43:21 PST
Organization: Not an Organization

In article <1992Dec20.051209.9684@cubetech.com> andrew@cubetech.com (Andrew Loewenstern) writes:
>In article <dillon.0t0a@overload.Berkeley.CA.US> dillon@overload.Berkeley.CA.US (Matthew Dillon) writes:
>>    If NeXT can get a handle on its misuse of memory, that is.. they do not
>>    seem to realize the huge amount of bad press they are going to get if
>>    NS486 turns out to be slower then Windows in effective response, and
>>    Windows runs quite well with 8MB of ram.
>
>Windoze doesn't use windows with backingstore
>Windoze doesn't run DPS
>Windoze doesn't do a lot of things NeXTSTEP does behind the scenes,
>that's why it uses less memory.  NeXT won't get a huge amount of bad
>press.  It's not likely that they will get a huge amount of _any_
>press.

    You are saying this as if these things are *supposed* to take up a lot
    of memory.	I see no reason why anything other then the backing store
    need take so much extra memory, certainly NOT display postscript. As
    far as backing store goes, it is definitely overused on the NeXT and
    for much more then simple on-screen window backings.

>NeXTSTEP needs about 24 megs of RAM to run really well.  Would you say
>that NeXTSTEP does three times the stuff in the background?  Is it 3
>times better?	Is RAM cheap?	yes, yes, yes.

    That's nice, so why don't you try to explain this invisible stuff to
    joe user.  I'm not arguing with the technical facts, but with the
    assumption that they can be translated into ooos and ahhhs to
    non-technical people.  As a developer I rather like the NeXT.  As a
    user I wonder why, for example, you can't preview a print command from
    the Previewer (something I often want to do) and why the previewer
    screws up on perfectly valid third party postscript files (e.g. doesn't
    allow you to modify the page layout or zoom).  The NeXT is great in
    that it implements postscript, but there are as many special cases with
    the NeXT and it's postscript as there are with every other system I've
    seen.  Not so fun, sometimes.

				    -Matt

>andrew
>(back from HoHoCon!)
>--
>andrew@cubetech.com	  |  "C++'s runtime sucks shit!  Virtual functions
>Andrew Loewenstern	  |   can go straight to hell!"  - Ron Pomeroy
>Cube Technologies, Inc.  |		      ForYourEyesOnly public key:
>0000000701B61D1ADF0DFC9C16185CEA055200000007EB4A9FEB1922065D471A89E905B5

--

    Matthew Dillon		dillon@Overload.Berkeley.CA.US
    1005 Apollo Way		uunet.uu.net!overload!dillon
    Incline Village, NV. 89451	ham: KC6LVW (no mail drop)
    USA 			Sandel-Avery Engineering (702)831-8000
From: bjorn@darmok.uoregon.edu (Bjorn S. Fjeld Pettersen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: comp.sys.next.announce is it dead?
Date: 30 Dec 1992 23:16:44 GMT
Organization: University of Oregon Network Services
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: cisco-ts2-line65.uoregon.edu

Is comp.sys.next.announce dead? I havent seen any postings there for a _long_  
while. I know it is moderated, but isn't anything slipping through the censors,  
or is it just that no one has anything to announce for the NeXT?

Just wondering.

Bjorn
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: vhs@rhein-main.de (Volker Herminghaus-Shirai)
Subject: Re: the REAL problem is...
Reply-To: vhs@rhein-main.de
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 08:07:30 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.071447.4654@scott.skidmore.edu> gbowie@dreams.skidmore.edu (Gavin  
Bowie) writes:
> So far, the GUI and NeXTMail is what I see as the NeXT's ONLY Advantage.
> What can a NeXT do that another platform won't (easily) do
> and WHY do I need it?

Whoops =8-[]
Talk about services, live links, it just works(tm), netinfo, fully
integrated sound, DPS and renderman and ISDN and netware and appletalk
to name just a few.
You need it because it makes you work more efficiently (at least
it does for me, and more than just a little)

> and WHY should I buy 200 of them to give to everyone in my office?

To make your staff work more efficiently, especially when they're
working together.


--
Volker Herminghaus-Shirai (vhs@qb.rhein-main.de)

Looks good on the outside, but -
	intel inside
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: nate@deepthought.edu (Nathaniel David Sammons)
Subject: Re: Portable NeXT?
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 20:32:24 GMT
Reply-To: ns111310@longs.lance.colostate.edu
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO  80523

About the 680x0 portables... I don't think that anyone will be making
a 68040 portable at any time soon.... the power requirements are too
large.  A 486 or (gag on the name) "Pentium" portable would be more 
likely (although the P5 portables I would not expect soon).

What looks better (to me) are the "Personal Data Assistants" [NOT from 
Apple, since I don't think that they will ship for quite a while], but
AT&T is putting out the "EO" 440 and 880 portables, pen based, runs the
"PenPoint" OS from GO Systems, and the 440 has a screen resolution of
110 dpi!!!  that's pretty good.  They offer internal modems, keyboard
ports, PCMCIA cards (1 in the 440 and 2 in the 880), the AT&T Hobbit
(nice name) processor, and sone neeto junk.  They are a tad expensive,
(over $2,500, I think).  The info I have is from the new MacUser mag.


Just my two cents....

-nate sammons
 ns111310@longs.lance.colostate.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: wilcoxt@cuug.ab.ca (Terrance Wilcox 229-3361)
Subject: Re: End of NeXT
Organization: Calgary UNIX User's Group
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 21:09:03 GMT

In article <1992Dec22.040523.2598@wam.umd.edu> rsrodger@wam.umd.edu (Yamanari) writes:
>
>	Pardon, but doesn't Canon already own more than 50% of NeXT?

No, closer to 20%. Jobs still owns 46%.
>
>
>	The day NeXT becomes a wholly Japanese owned company is the 
>	day I start rabidly campaigning for Windows NT.  Not that NeXT
>	has exactly been the users friend ("Hey, let's design our
>	machines without parallel ports, sell a brainless laser engine
>	and paper feed in a box and make it impossible for users to 
>	buy much more powerful printers for themselves!!"  -- re: 
>	NeXT $1000+ "dumb" printer vs. just about any printer in the 
>	last 4 years), and not to be xenophobic or paranoid or anything,
>	but we are already in a pretty bad way and don't need our software
>	industry's jewels going overseas as well.
>
I've got to ask. Why do I need a parallel port? Why do I need more than a 
brainless printer? As it is, I've got a fast 400 DPI laser. That's better 
than most PC users, and they have parallel ports and intelligent printer.
All they have to worry about is drivers and cables and incompatibilities and
font cartridges...

Terry Wilcox

PS. I forget emulation and TrueType and all that crap.

Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: fag2@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Farul A Ghazali)
Subject: Re: NeXT vs Mac, Whats the difference?
Reply-To: fag2@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Farul A Ghazali)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 06:02:10 GMT

In article <1992Dec24.100303.457@otago.ac.nz> athomson@otago.ac.nz (Alastair Thomson) writes:
>> 
>> 	Has anyone got the low down on whether the release
>> 	shrinkwrap ~$900 version of NS486 will include these tools,
>> 	or will you have to buy the $2200 developer version?  
>> 
>> 	I hope it'll be in the release version.  At $900, it's sure
>> 	to have a hard time--at $2200 it's sureto be a failure.

>From what my contacts at NeXT will tell me (Which isn't much!) you will have to
>spend $2,200. But as my main point in the original post was, IMHO NeXT are *not*
>aiming NS486 at the small user, it is aimed at corporates, notably those that
>may use Win NT. NT certainly ins't aimed at small time users.

Anyone know how much the edu. price might be or if there's going to be
an edu version?

     -- farul ghazali.
        columbia university in the city of new york.
From: ak520@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Lucas Wagner)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 22 Dec 1992 00:25:16 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: ak520@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Lucas Wagner)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, gbowie@dreams.skidmore.edu (Gavin Bowie) says:

>Sheesh... you can learn more about NeXT reading in the Mac group than  
>here!   
>

Yes..  Come one come all to the Mac section.....

Very interesting debates going on about the NeXT, if anyone is
interested...

Lucas
-- 
Lucas C. Wagner  --  ak520@po.CWRU.edu  --  lucas@hernix.org
IRC:  Predat0r, XCalibur, Mr_Bungle  UUCP:  hernix!lucas
"What would the world be like without Diet Coke?"
From: saito-naoki@math.yale.edu (Naoki Saito)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Portable NeXT?
Date: 27 Dec 1992 17:40:33 -0500
Organization: Yale University Mathematics Dept., New Haven, CT 06520-2155
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: golem.math.yale.edu

Dear NeXT experts,
I'm interested in having NeXT capability on the note book computer.
Is there any plan for NeXT Inc. to introduce a not book NeXT in the near
future? Or it's better to wait for NeXTStep on 486 and buy 486-based note
book computer?
I would appreciate any comments and suggestions.
From: jefferis@manas.engr.widener.edu (Raymond P Jefferis)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re:NS'486 - Verrrry interesting...
Date: 23 Dec 1992 14:45:23 GMT
Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site
NNTP-Posting-Host: engr.widener.edu

I hope you are all being verrrry careful about letting the advertizing  
sharks imply something (with photo inclusions) which they don't have nerve  
enough to claim right out loud.  I wouldn't assume that you have caught  
them in a careless revealing photo.

Yours cynically,
Ray
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: gbowie@dreams.skidmore.edu (Gavin Bowie)
Subject: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Organization: Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs NY
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 10:11:43 GMT

Sheesh... you can learn more about NeXT reading in the Mac group than  
here!
From: rpomeroy@aunext1.amd.com (Ron Pomeroy x(Coop))
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Insults (was: Re: standardizing NeXTSTEP)
Date: 22 Dec 92 23:18:42 GMT
Reply-To: rpomeroy@aunext1.amd.com
Distribution: usa
Organization: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.; Austin, Texas

In article <Dec.18.19.07.18.1992.24803@gandalf.rutgers.edu>  
szatrows@gandalf.rutgers.edu (John Kheit) writes:
>>>is nice not having him.  <grin>
>>Sorry about all of my posts of late!  But I really have a thing
>>against Microsoft.  This company is the reason I left the apple port
>>and I REALLY HATE the idea of them making stuff on the NeXT.  They
>>would just start mucking with the interface and OS and in general
>>screw up what is so nice about this machine.  I am SO happy that
>>Microsoft doesnt develop (I know I'm never going to hear the end of
>>this :-) on this platform.  I always used to use MacWrite II in the
>>old days anyhow.
>>
>>later, John
>>-- 
>>NeXT Campus Consultant---Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey |my     
%^)
>>John Kheit/monoChrome  | Opinions expressed represent me only!       |fried  
%-)
>>173 Westgate Drive     | Audix Voice Mail# (415) 366-0900 X5512      |brain  
%>)
>>Edison, NJ 08820-1163  |  
kheit@hangout.rutgers.edu,szatrows@gandalf.rutgers.edu

Let me case my vote in agreement and add the following sentiment...

Down with MicroSloth and long live innovative software startups which exemplify  
the entrepreneurial spirit!!  Especially Stone Design (3DReality is badass! Way  
to go Andy and Co.), Lighthouse Design (I'm dreaming about Diagram!2), Appsoft,  
Athena, Millinium, RightBrain, Agog (Greg, everyone thinks I'm crazy cuz' I  
talk to my computer...thanks :-)), Objective Technologies (Hey abc!), Xanthus,  
and B&W (NXFax...It just works(tm)).

Ha!

--
Ronald Pomeroy		[Objective-Cruntime: [Smalltalk runtime]];
Advanced Micro Devices	[self dream-on];
CAM Applications Group
rpomeroy@aunext1.amd.com (NeXTmail preferred)