From: 10514w@coos.dartmouth.edu (John Lamperti)
Subject: BERNIE SANDERS: FIRST INDEP IN CONGRESS IN 40 YEARS (INTERVIEW)
Followup-To: alt.activism.d
Originator: rich@pencil.cs.missouri.edu
Organization: University of Missouri
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 19:19:02 GMT

		 ************************************
	    BERNIE SANDERS INTERVIEWED BY DAVID BARSAMIAN
		   CREATING A NEW POLITICAL AGENDA
		 ************************************
		    Transcribed by Joseph Woodard
		     From Z magazine, March 1992
		 ************************************

IN 1990 Bernie Sanders became the first independent elected to
Congress in 40 years. He was a four-time Mayor of Burlington,
Vermont's largest city.

==================================================================

BARSAMIAN: 

	I'm interested in your notion that the potential for
	political power in the United States rests in the working
	class and that it's union based. How would you promote that
	view in light of the fact that the United States has
	probably 16 percent of its organized work force in unions,
	one of the lowest rates of any industrialized nation, and an
	increasing hostility toward unions and organizing?

SANDERS:

	I think you're quite right in saying that the percentage of
	workers in our unions has significantly declined. But one
	reason for that is not hostility on the part of workers to
	unions. It is that the manufacturing base in which unions
	historically function in this country has been obliterated.
	What has happened is that the number of workers who are
	engaged in manufacturing has significantly declined, and
	with that there has been a significant decline in trade
	unions. Also, what must be understood is that in terms of
	the capability of unions to organize, there are more legal
	hurdles that they have got to go through in this country
	than in any other industrialized country on earth. It is
	very, very hard to legally form a union in this country.
	Then after you go through all of the difficulties involved
	in that, you deal with all of the well paid lawyers and
	union busting consultants, then you're going to have to sit
	down and negotiate a first contract. Twenty-five or thirty
	percent of those efforts fail because the companies refuse
	to negotiate. So I do not believe that working people are
	hostile to unions. You've got a media that's hostile to
	unions. You've got legal restrictions. And you have a
	decline in our manufacturing base. I think those are the
	major reasons why you're seeing a decline in trade union
	membership.

BARSAMIAN: 

	Let me give you two anecdotes, and tell me if I'm completely
	off base here. One is a personal one. My brother, who's been
	working since he was 16-years-old and is now 69, is a
	machinist in a factory in New Jersey. He is adamantly
	anti-union. He says he's not working class, when in fact by
	every objective standard he is. That's one. Two is an
	incident in 1988, in Smyrna, Tennessee, the UAW tried to
	organize a Nissan automotive plant. I recall the photographs
	after the vote, which was against forming a union, that the
	workers were wearing T-shirts saying Union-Free and Proud
	and waving American flags.

SANDERS:

	I can't comment on your brother. I'm sure there are many
	people who feel the same way. But I think what you should
	also appreciate is that in terms of organizing efforts there
	is a whole lot of opposition. What the companies and their
	very sophisticated consultants say is, why do you want to
	pay union dues? Why do you want to have to participate in
	this national organization? We're going to treat you good.
	What do you need a union for? They put a lot of pressure on
	workers. It is no secret that today workers are being fired
	right and left who attempt to organize unions. So if we
	think that the climate for organizing is wonderful and free
	and workers have all kinds of protection, we're dead wrong.
	In fact, one of the areas that I want to make some progress
	in is labor law in this country to give workers who want to
	join unions--and I'm not going to argue with you that there
	are many who do not--but I have the feeling and believe very
	strongly that there are millions of workers in this country
	who would like to join unions but in fact there are enormous
	difficulties facing union organizers to develop union shops.



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