HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: martillo@stars.clearpoint.com (Joachim Martillo)
Newsgroups: misc.headlines,soc.misc,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.misc,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Want facts? "WHO RUNS THE MEDIA? The Alarming Facts"
Date: 17 Apr 92 12:30:16 GMT
Followup-To: misc.headlines
Organization: Clearpoint Inc., Hopkinton, MA

In article <1992Apr17.020921.76152@cs.cmu.edu> anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) writes:
>In article <1992Apr16.232347.13363@das.harvard.edu> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:

>>Which other terorist attacks have been preceded by phone calls telling
>>when and where they would take place?  Am I missing a serious chunck
>>of history?

>Off the top of my head, the IRA is a huge example.

The US Air Force during WWII, the Korean War and the Vietnam War did in
fact in some cases drop leaflets to warn civilians to abandon an area
where an attack against some military target was imminent.  The
provision of warning does not necessarily distinguish terrorist from
non-terrorist action. 

>>Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

>Anwar Mohammed                           Graduate Student

Joachim Carlo Santos Martillo Ajami
From: paws@VLSI1.VLSI.COLUMBIA.EDU (Paul Landsberg)
Newsgroups: misc.headlines
Subject: Corruption.........NYC style
Date: 9 Apr 92 16:57:12 GMT
Article-I.D.: cunixf.9204091704.AA06286


 
Only in Gotham:

The city where corruption never sleeps.  Let me set the scene.  Angela
D'Urso, a legal secretary wrote letters to the Transit Authority pointing
out dangerous (and skanky) conditions in the 183rd Street station on
the No. 4 line earlier this year.  March 12th, the TA responds with a
letter that no such conditions exist.  Ms. D'Urso says BULL-FLATULENCE
and takes her camera to the station to give visual evidence to the
bean counters in the TA.  Faster than you can say NYC IDIOCY, 
two plainclothes TA officers give her three tickets totalling $125.
One for taking photos (yes, there is even a rule about taking photos
in the subway), and one for "breach of peacce."  Mayor Dinkins in 
his continued begging and pleading tour says, "The federal government
has failed us."  Dear Clueless Mayor, I urge you to look for failed
government closer to home.

Ah the joys of one party government.
 
Paul Landsberg
Newsgroups: misc.headlines,soc.misc,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.misc,alt.revisionism
From: Paktor@cup.portal.com (David L Paktor)
Newsgroups: misc.headlines,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.mideast,soc.misc
Subject: Re: Even *more* responses from. . . .Ralph Winston!  <gasp!!!>
Date: 12 Apr 92 12:31:48 GMT
Article-I.D.: cup.57295
  <1992Apr4.033710.4665@midway.uchicago.edu>
Organization: The Portal System (TM)


In article:  <1992Apr4.033710.4665@midway.uchicago.edu>
    gross@befvax.uchicago.edu (Leon Gross)
    cites article:  <1992Mar24.143230.18311@ircam.fr>
    From: fingerhu@ircam.fr (Michel Fingerhut)

    which lists, among others:

>   One participant of the 1982 conference was Issa Nakhleh, head of the   
>   Palestine Arab Delegation, an extremist pro-PLO group originally formed
>   by the notorious Grand Mufti of Jerusalem who broadcast from Nazi      
>   Germany to the Arabs in the Middle East.  In the US, Nakhleh has       
>   associated in recent years with Western Front, an antisemitic          
>   organisation.

Well, I don't know much about him, but I can say with some certainty
    that Issa Nakhleh is none too smart.

Nazis regard Arabs as "untermenschen", too.

If he is, for the moment, oblivious to the fact that he, too, is "not
    German enough", he will be in for a rude enlightenment.

When his Nazi pals decide they have no further use for him, they will be
    just as happy to target him and the Arab people for extermination as
    they are for the Jewish people, Black people, Asians, Gypsies, and
    the "mongrelized" (their word) races of South America.

Remember, Mr. Nakleh, and any other Arabs who think otherwise, that the
    enemy of your "enemy" is not necessarily your friend.  The scorpion
    that you set to bite your neighbor will just as readily bite you,
    the first chance he gets.

David

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  === Mister Systems ===    |  And pray that there's intelligent life
      David L Paktor        |  Somewhere out in space,
                            |  Cause there's bugger-all here on Earth!
  Paktor@cup.Portal.com     |     -- Monty Python, The Meaning of Life
                            |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Xref: sparky misc.headlines:3399 soc.misc:539 talk.politics.mideast:10785 talk.politics.misc:18220
From: rjc@cstr.ed.ac.uk (Richard Caley)
Newsgroups: misc.headlines,soc.misc,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.misc,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: WHO RUNS THE MEDIA?  WHAT A STUPID QUESTION.
Date: 14 Apr 92 19:11:17 GMT
	<1992Apr13.054206.5584@ennews.eas.asu.edu>
	<1992Apr14.025236.1015315@locus.com>
	<14APR199207193535@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Organization: Centre for Speech Technology Research

In article <14APR199207193535@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov>, Charles Packer (cp) writes:
cp> This is not at all a stupid question. 

Well, maybe `pointless' is more apropos than `stupid'...

The ownership of things like newspapers and TV stations is almost
completely uninteresting. What is important is whether you can freely
publish what you want to say using your own resources. If you can then
you have no cause to complain if someone else happens to be doing the
same. If you can't then it is the people stopping you that are the
problem, not those lucky enough to escape the net.

--
rjc@cogsci.ed.ac.uk			_O_
					 |<
Newsgroups: misc.headlines,soc.misc,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.misc,alt.revisionism
From: jime@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41)
Subject: Re: Want facts? "WHO RUNS THE MEDIA? The Alarming Facts"
Organization: MIT Lincoln Lab - Group 41
	<1992Apr10.082142.7808@muddcs.claremont.edu>
	<JIME.92Apr10103806@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu>
	<1992Apr10.214732.9204@techbook.com>
	<JIME.92Apr10233057@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu> 	<1992Apr13.185652.1
	<1992Apr14.214015.6724@techbook.com>
Date: 14 Apr 92 23:18:01

In article <1992Apr14.214015.6724@techbook.com> gummitch@techbook.com (Jeff Frane) writes:
>   You need to read a little more history of the Phillipines, also Takaki's
>   excellent history of Asian-Americans, which covers the US attitude
>   toward the Filipinos.  Your assertion that Puerto Ricans don't "want
>   independence" is somewhat at variance with the facts.  A significant
>   minority of the population _do_ want independence, and an even larger
>   group want the priviliges of statehood.  And, in any event, it has
>   _nothing_ to do with the original imperialistic motivations of the US
>   Government.

You know as well as I that repeated referenda in Puerto Rico have
rejected any change from the present commonwealth status.  Certainly
an insignificant fraction of their population wants independence, and
another insignificant fraction wants statehood.  However in a
democracy the will of the people is determined by a majority vote.

>   Obviously you weren't around in the 1960s, or you would realize that a
>   lot of people living in Watts, Harlem, etc. _did_ consider themselves
>   --with plenty of reason--to be colonies.  And there is a great deal to
>   be said for maintaining a source of cheap labor.  But that's another
>   issue.

I remember the 1960s quite well.  It was a period of political
extremism, on both sides, where catchphrases were used as weapons of
class struggle, more than as accurate descriptions of reality.  The
word colony obviously does not apply to these neighborhoods, but was
used as an epithet for the racism and economic malaise they suffered
under (and still do).

>   Anyway, WHAT ABOUT THE INDIANS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I prefer the Yankees, myself.
--
=Jim  jime%atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)
Xref: sparky misc.headlines:3343 soc.misc:492 talk.politics.mideast:10661 talk.politics.misc:17914
From: makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Newsgroups: misc.headlines,soc.misc,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.misc,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Want facts?  "WHO RUNS THE MEDIA?  The Alarming Facts"
Date: 12 Apr 92 07:19:17 GMT
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ

In article <JIME.92Apr12012706@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu> jime@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41) writes:

# [Sorry about replying in many small snippets.  Blame my news software.]

# In article <1992Apr12.014433.29249@ennews.eas.asu.edu> makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:

# >   In article <JIME.92Apr10223708@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu> jime@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41) writes:

# >   # >   # And in my admittedly insufficient reading, Jerusalem was free for
# >   # >   # worship to all faiths under British rule.

# >   # >	   Jerusalem may have been, but certain places outside of Jerusalem
# >   # >   were not.

# >   # Backpedaling.  So Israel is _not_ the first power to administer
# >   # Jerusalem and allow freedom of religious expression.  What were these
# >   # "certain places"?

# >	   Certain areas in what is now Judea and Samaria.  However, Israel
# >   is the first local non imperial "power" to allow freedom of religious
# >   expression.
 
# You sure can be vague when you want to be.  ("Certain areas" in this
# case means uncertain areas.)  I will take that as a sign that you
# don't know what you are talking about.
 
	It is not a sign of anything.  Jerusalem was the point under
discussion.  I was merelypointing out other areas in Judea and
Samaria.  I did not go into specifics because I did not find them
relevent.

# Now as for the rest of your claim, it is so restrictive as to be
# meaningless.  Jerusalem has been under the control of various
# non-local governments for centuries.  Just which government are you
# comparing the present Israeli government with?  Not the British
# government.  Not the Ottoman Empire.  Not the Crusaders.  Not the
# Byzantine Empire.  Not the Roman Empire.  Not the Babylonians.  Not
# the Assyrians.  Perhaps the ancient Israelites, who were local after a
# fashion, and were hardly religiously tolerant.
 
# You also seem to forget that when the Moslems took over Jerusalem from
# the Byzantine empire about 640 AD, one of the first things they did
# was to let the Jews back into Jerusalem.

	How petty can you get?  Fine.  I will amend my statement to be for
modern history.  Capish?
--

David Makowsky
makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu
Xref: sparky misc.headlines:3380 talk.politics.misc:18161 talk.politics.mideast:10757 soc.misc:523 alt.activism:7687
From: nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss)
Newsgroups: misc.headlines,soc.misc,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.misc,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Want facts?  "WHO RUNS THE MEDIA?  The Alarming Facts"
Date: 11 Apr 92 03:12:37 GMT
Organization: NCR E&M Columbia SC.

># In article <1992Apr10.082142.7808@muddcs.claremont.edu> gmeltzne@jarthur.claremont.edu (manu) writes:
>
>
># As for the Palestinians sending their children out to fight the
># intifada, and thus being solely responsible for their deaths, that is
># a very one-sided view of the conflict.  You are spouting propaganda
># there.
>
>	It may be propaganda, it may even be one sided, but it is the
>truth an it goes a long way in explaining a major portion of the
>intifada.  This view would have to play a strong part of any
>description that was not propaganda and was not one sided also.
>

There were no adults left to run the intifada - most of them are in prison.
Besides, do you think it is fair that palestinians without weapons face the
Israeli army who is well armed?
Newsgroups: misc.headlines,soc.misc,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.misc,alt.revisionism
From: jime@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41)
Subject: Re: Want facts? "WHO RUNS THE MEDIA? The Alarming Facts"
Organization: MIT Lincoln Lab - Group 41
	<1992Apr10.082142.7808@muddcs.claremont.edu>
	<JIME.92Apr10103806@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu>
	<1992Apr10.214732.9204@techbook.com>
	<JIME.92Apr10233057@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu> 	<1992Apr13.185652.1
	<1992Apr14.214015.6724@techbook.com>
	<JIME.92Apr14231801@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu>
	<1992Apr15.201125.22068@techbook.com>
Date: 16 Apr 92 13:49:38

In article <1992Apr15.201125.22068@techbook.com> gummitch@techbook.com (Jeff Frane) writes:
>   Frankly, it beats the hell out of me why you feel the need to portray US
>   policy as lily-white simply to criticize Israeli policy.  It simply adds
>   credence to the frequently-voiced opinion of Israelis that they are
>   being held to a higher standard than anyone else in the world.  It
>   betrays an astonishingly blinkered vision of history.

I do not portray US history as lily-white.  I have repeatedly
discussed wars of imperialism fought by the the US (Spanish-American,
Mexican-American, etc.).  I also do not think it is necessary to say
that A is white so that I can say B is not white.

However, I do not believe that arguing over historical injustices has
much operative value.  Present injustices, however, should be opposed.
(Sometimes they are caused by historical events, it must be noted.)
Further, I do not believe that historical injustices justify present
ones.  That argumentative tactic is oft-used by apologists for various
regimes.
--
=Jim  jime%atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)
Newsgroups: misc.headlines,talk.abortion,dc.general
From: mprc@troi.cc.rochester.edu (M. Price)
Subject: Re: Crowd size at abortion rights march
Organization: University of Rochester - Rochester, New York
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 92 18:13:15 GMT

In <9APR199207374575@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov> packer@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles Packer) writes:

>In article <ian.702785731@asi1>, ian@Agranat.COM (Ian Douglas Agranat) writes...
>>At 4:00PM, Patricia Ireland (National NOW president) announced that 750,000 
>>signatures had been collected and counted thus far.  She emphasized that this 


>That's odd; I walked through and around crowds there for almost
>two hours and I didn't see any evidence whatsoever that signatures
>were being collected. If someone would put me in touch with NOW
>officials in Washington, I'd be glad to go into their offices and
>examine these alleged signatures.

     You're kidding! I saw at least 30 signature collectors in the
crowd, and at least ten of those directly asked me if I had signed in,
not to mention the tables outside the metro stations and the NOW reps
who boarded each individual bus and checked people in.
    BTW, it was Washington D.C., Charles, in case that is
what led to your apparent confusion.

                                       MP.
From: bralick@apl.cs.psu.edu (Will Bralick)
Newsgroups: misc.headlines
Subject: Re: IHR Scores Stunning Victory in $11 Million Mermelstein Trial!
Date: 8 Apr 92 00:43:43 GMT
Article-I.D.: cs.z4bH4pmk6
Distribution: usa
Organization: Self-similar

In article <1992Apr7.162319.16644@cbnewsi.cb.att.com> sasha@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alexander.kostomaroff) writes:
| Ralph Winston of "Banished CPU" ends his verbose diatribe
| 	"IHR Scores Stunning Victory in $11 Million Mermelstein Trial!"
| with a quote from Nietzsche:
| 	"What does not destroy me, makes me stronger".

Nietzsche apparently never saw a victim of tuberculosis.


Regards,

--
Will                                  |  ... when princes think more of
       bralick@cs.psu.edu             |  luxury than of arms, they lose
                                      |  their state.
with disclaimer;  use disclaimer;     |             - Niccolo Machiavelli
Xref: sparky misc.headlines:3418 soc.misc:555 talk.politics.mideast:10838 talk.politics.misc:18317
From: makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Newsgroups: misc.headlines,soc.misc,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.misc,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Want facts?  "WHO RUNS THE MEDIA?  The Alarming Facts"
Date: 14 Apr 92 06:08:10 GMT
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ

In article <JIME.92Apr13112338@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu> jime@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41) writes:

# In article <1992Apr13.054206.5584@ennews.eas.asu.edu> makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:

# >   In article <JIME.92Apr13001541@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu> jime@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41) writes:

# >   # An interesting opinion.  In 1989 Israeli IDF Chief of Staff Shomron
# >   # said "People ask why we don't end the intifada.  Anyone who wants to
# >   # end the intifada must remember that there are only three ways to
# >   # achieve this:  transfer of the Arab population of the areas,
# >   # starvation, or physical elimination - that is genocide."

# >	   So you agree with everything Shomron says?
 
# I doubt it.
 
	Then why do you agree here?

# >   # Which of
# >   # these or any other less wimpy policies would you support?

# >	   The policy I support is transfer.  Without it there will be a
# >   massive civil war that will make the intifada look like a sunday
# >   school picnic (I know that transfer will lead to some violence, but
# >   this violence will also look like a sunday school picnic when compared
# >   with what will happen without transfer).  However, this is a long term
# >   solution.  In the short term I support whatever policy will end the
# >   intifada with the least amount of violence.  This may or may not
# >   include one of Shomron's solutions.
 
# Transfer to where?  You support the uprooting of a people from their
# homes, and deportation to a land foreign to them?

	It is not a pleasant situation.  However transfer is much better
than everyone LITERALLY killing each other.  Do not give me any of
this nonsense about peace.  Anyone who takes a reasoned, rational
approach to this situation will see that peace is impossible without
divine intervention, and eventually there will be a ful scale civil
war.

# When that happens
# to the Jews, it is usually decried.

	The Jews were not in conflict with those that deported them.
However, deportations certainly would have been preferable to pogroms
and massacres.

# When it happens to the Arabs, you
# support it.  Why?

	There have been several of these types of things done this century
to save lives.  The world accepted it because it was the lessor of two
evils.  But when it involves Jews, you reject it.  Why?

# It is against the Geneva Convention, anyway.

	It may be against the Geneva Convention.  However, if it is
necessary to violate the Geneva Convention to protect lives, then so
be it and we ought to change the Geneva COnvention.
--

David Makowsky
makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu
Xref: sparky misc.headlines:3274 talk.abortion:14415 dc.general:711
From: jamie@access.digex.com (James Treworgy)
Newsgroups: misc.headlines,talk.abortion,dc.general
Subject: Re: Crowd size at abortion rights march
Date: 8 Apr 92 12:37:05 GMT
Organization: Express Access Public Access UNIX, Greenbelt, Maryland USA

In article <7APR199208114521@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov> packer@amarna.gsfc.nasa.gov (Charles Packer) writes:
>The Park Police in Washington continue their tradition of
>inflating their official estimates of crowd size at protest
>demonstrations. They estimated 500,000 for Sunday's abortion
>rights march. (I support the objectives of that protest, by
>the way.) By comparison, the resident population of D.C. is
>625,000.
>
>I spent about an hour and a half there and I would estimate
>70,000 seated on the Mall. After about 3 PM the crowd didn't
>get any larger, and it was easy to see that people were walking
>away at about the same rate they were marching in. If this throughput
>continued for two hours, that would be another 36,000 to 60,000.
>Taking the higher figure, I come up with 130,000. 

Just curious... how did you arrive at this estimate? As a good comparison,
RFK stadium holds 70,000 people.  I think one can safely say there were
a HELL of a lot more people on the mall than you could fit in RFK stadium.
-- 
James A. Treworgy    "And it all would be so crystal clear, if it wasn't for
jamie@digex.com         the foam..."          (jamie@sun.astro.wesleyan.edu)
Newsgroups: misc.headlines,soc.misc,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.misc,alt.revisionism
From: jime@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41)
Subject: Re: Want facts?  "WHO RUNS THE MEDIA?  The Alarming Facts"
Organization: MIT Lincoln Lab - Group 41
	<1992Apr12.014433.29249@ennews.eas.asu.edu>
	<JIME.92Apr12012428@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu>
	<1992Apr12.071510.2846@ennews.eas.asu.edu>
Date: 13 Apr 92 01:20:48

In article <1992Apr12.071510.2846@ennews.eas.asu.edu> makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:
>   In article <JIME.92Apr12012428@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu> jime@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41) writes:
>   # >	   What the world community considered [occupied Sinai] was irelevent.  How would
>   # >   you like it if the world community refused to recognize your property
>   # >   rights to your own home?  
>
>   # And here we see the image of arrogance.  World opinion be damned,
>
>	   Great way to respond.  You did not even address my point.

Read on, my friend.

>   # Israel took the Sinai from Egypt, and that's it.  Luckily Begin was
>   # more flexible than you appear to be.
>
>	   Which was one of his few mistakes.
>
>   # Answer me this:  How many Jews
>  # lived in the Sinai in 1966?  Then tell me that it was the home of Israel.

^^^^Here is where I addressed your point.

>   This is irelevent.  Israel payed for the Sinai with its blood in
>   defensive struggles.  And then gave it back.  This has happened more then
>   once, by the way.

This is not at all irrelevant.  You claimed that the Sinai was the
home of Israel.

>   # >   # >  ... the overwhelming majority
>   # >   # >   of the terrorism was (as it still is) commited by the Arabs against
>   # >   # >   the Jews.

>   # >   # Substantiate, please.
>
>   # >	   World events.
>
>   # Great quote.  I'll have to remember that catch-all reference when I
>   # write my next term paper.  See footnote 3.
>   # -----
>   # 3.  World events.
>
>	   Your the one that claims to have read a lot and to be well
>   informed.  For you, this should be sufficient.

I apologize for my severe sarcasm.  It was uncalled for.  I guess I
just didn't think that "World events" was much of a response to a
request for substantiation.
--
=Jim  jime%atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)
Xref: sparky misc.headlines:3208 talk.politics.misc:17183 talk.politics.mideast:10368 soc.misc:422
From: bralick@oberon.cs.psu.edu (Will Bralick)
Subject: Re: Want facts?  "WHO RUNS THE MEDIA?  The Alarming Facts"
Organization: Self-similar
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 14:41:40 GMT

In article <JIME.92Apr14173310@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu> jime@bullwinkle.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41) writes:
| 
| Certainly a deportation of all Palestinians is racist.  How do you
| ...                                            ~~~~~~
| This demonstrates the ultimate racism inherent in your deportation idea.
| ...                            ~~~~~~
| The Greek-Turkish problem is also an instance of racism, ...
						   ~~~~~~
Forgive my ignorance, but what definition are you using for "racism?" You 
seem to be talking about ethnic groups rather than races.  So, how many 
"races" constitute mankind?  Do you argue that (ethnic group) == race?


Regards,

--
Will                          \ Society cannot exist unless a controlling power
       bralick@cs.psu.edu      \ upon will and appetite be placed somewhere,
                                \ and the less of it there is within, the more
with disclaimer; use disclaimer; \ there must be without.   --   Edmund Burke
Newsgroups: misc.headlines,soc.misc,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.misc,alt.revisionism