From: cdwilde@ritchie.uwaterloo.ca (Chris Wilde)
Subject: Re: AF/ATS: Open Borders For All!
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 20:05:05 GMT



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     Just by looking at the statistics, it's clear that the
paranoid fear which is sweeping Europe with regard to the present
"flood" of immigrants has been carefully crafted by the ruling
powers to serve their ideological needs. Most migration takes
place within the nations of the Three Continents themselves; only
a very few people ever reach the wealthy northern metropoles.
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WRONG!  During 1988 and 1989, the majority of immigrants coming to Canada
were from Guyana and Trinidad and Tobago.
Refugees from Vietnam are flooding downtown Toronto even now.

And tell me, what is wrong with giving preference to persons with skills
and training (which is the real  reason people from the "North" cross
borders)?  Nobody is interested in allowing immigrants that would simply
end up on the welfare system.

The real problem here are repressive governments in the south.  Corruption
and despair rule the southern countries.  To say that the North must take
these people in is insane.  Their countries require a change in government.
A revolution.  Why don't you take your rhetoric to someplace it might do
some good, instead of trying to flog the North American/European/Asian
upper and middle classes?

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 Women who seek divorce or separation
from their immigrant husbands, for example, cannot seek an
individual asylum request if their initial entrance into Europe
was granted as the spouse of an asylum-seeker.
-----------------

Are you surprised?  This rule is to prevent someone from constantly
remarrying and divorcing simply to get non-refugees into another country.
It works both ways.  If a man were to enter as a spouse of a refugee, he
would not be allowed a divorce either.  Since the law works equally against
men and women in similar situations, it is not sexist.  Stop trying to
read sexism into things that simply are there to prevent abuse of the system.

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politicians in Europe are screaming about how "The Boat is Full!"
-----------------

If you drive for two hours in Canada or the US, you might leave a state.  If
you drive for two hours in Europe, you will cross two borders, and be
waiting in line at a third.  Europe is very small compared to any other
continent.  It IS full.  In fact, it is heading for overpopulation.
You almost go on and admit this further in your paragraph.  In fact, you
basically admit that everybody in Europe is worried about overpopulation.
If you can find no legal political party that states the opposite, then you
better admit defeat on this one.  It's sort of like squeezing blood from a
stone -- if there is no place for them to go, don't let them in in the first
place.


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longer are these people welcomed as political refugees; now they,
like so many others from the Three Continents, are labelled as
"economic refugees" and told to leave.
-----------------

Hey, at least you can't say Europe is racist!  So long as it treats East
Europeans the same as Africans, you really have no call for complaint.

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the last moment - to establish a system of regulation, selection,
and control to safe-guard the European fortress. Through various
-----------------

So what?  Why is it wrong to want to try to keep what you have achieved?
Every nation in the world tries to prevent itself from falling back, so
why is it wrong for Europe to do so?

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     Again, this line of policy is not exclusively right-wing. In
-----------------

So nobody's on your side.  I feel soooooo sorry for you.  Look at me, I'm
just dripping with pity.

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exclusively so. Again, Europe's ruling powers do not want to
eliminate the migration of cheap labour to within their borders,
rather they want to control it better. Europe's welfare abundance
-----------------

Yes, and this keeps down the size of the slums, which reduces crime, providing
a safer lifestyle for everybody in the country of interest.  Just what
is WRONG with that.  A northern nation doesn't have a responsibility to
the southern nations.  Accepting immigrants allows the better educated
natives to do jobs they are better suited for (note:  putting people in
the job they are best suited for IS a communist policy:  replying with
"Why shouldn't the immigrants end up with those better jobs?" is NOT
acceptable from any Communist/Socialist responder).

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illegal migrant
labour has been a widely-utilized base in the labour market, even
if official statistics never record this fact.
-----------------

Hey, the US provides decent estimates on the number of illegal Mexicans
working in the US.  Official records DO record this fact.  But look, if
someone enters the country illegally and ends up making more money than
if they had stayed in their country of origin, where is the fault in the
country they entered?  The US commits no sin if the employer pays less than
minimum wage to the illegal migrants.  Illegal immigrants are a much less
dangerous crime than something like drug smuggling, so why blow the same
amount of money on finding Illegal immigrants?
Or are you saying that the US (or EUropean country) ought to keep the
migrants once they are caught?  Yeah, sure, and then watch the flood roar
in.  The US couldn't handle the number of workers that would cross the
border.  There simply would be no jobs for them, crime would rise, and the
once strong nation would now be a cesspool like where the migrants
originated.  You really don't want the Northern countries to fall into the
same situation as the South, do you?

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one thing, Europe will indeed begin to resemble a fortress, as
the EC's outer borders become more and more militarized, like the
-----------------

Europe has ALWAYS been a fortress.  THe borders have always been well
defended.  Every major conqueror in history ended up in the European
theatre (except Japan in WWII).  The Romans, Alexander, Napolean, Hitler,
Stalin, Attilla, etc.  Everybody hit Europe, or came from there.  Do
you really think the Europeans do not have a right to be a little paranoid?
They're still number one on the hit list, no matter what the US might
think.

Now, you go into EUROPOL, etc.  Look, what is wrong with catching and
prosecuting criminals?  You are trying to make a police force that doesn't
even exist yet look bad.  They don't even get a chance to catch a terrorist
or stop a burgler, and they already have to look like a bunch of facists.
As for the computer network, why take a murderer into your country, when
you can have a hard-working, family-loving farmer?  Let the crooks fester
where they breed.




That's it.  I'm really getting pissed at these buttheads.  They have no real
conception of what a nation is, and where its responsibilities lie.  They're
trying to make me feel guilty for being better off than everybody else.  I'm
through with this and the base.  If these assholes ever show that they can
understand that there are only so many resources, and that the North never
had a responsibility to the south, or the US to the EUropeans, or France
to England, etc., then somebody give me a line and I'll resubscribe, but
I'm sick of the crap.  They have no leg to stand on, and they won't even
debate me.  Screw 'em.