From: emev02@castle.ed.ac.uk (H Oral)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Musluman Turkiye!
Date: 23 Nov 92 15:07:36 GMT
Distribution: soc.culture.turkish
Organization: Edinburgh University

THIS IS A RESPONSE TO EMRE ERKUT.      
(225 lines)

>
>I guess you do not know much about the origins of Turks. Our origin is not
>Islam but the Turkic identity itself. What makes some Turks resort to Islamic
>life 100% is not necessarily honesty but desparation in other areas of life.

Innalillah Wa inna ilayhi raciun.

To Allah we belong, and to Him is our return.

By the way, who was born Turkish because he wanted so?            
By the way, who was born English because he wanted so?            
By the way, who was born Scottish because he wanted so?            
By the way, who was born American because he wanted so?            
By the way, who was born Arabic because he wanted so?            
By the way, who was born Kurdish because he wanted so?            

If there is no one, what is racism/nationalism all about?

>There are no 'believers' of Ataturk because he is not a religious
>figure.

What are his idols doing all over the place?  Is not that idol-worshipping?
Isn't he the god of Turks who have shown them "the straight path"?
If not, why then when a matter arises we take what he has said rather
than what Allah(SWT) ordered even if they are contradictory to each other?

>>1- He abolished the khilafe.
>
>By that time the khilafe had lost almost all his function and was
>just a formal title.

It was better than nothing which is what Turkey is now.
Sorry, it is at least a turkey in the eyes of the West.
This is a bit harsh even for me, however this is the fact.

>
>>2- He disconnected all the relationships between muslims around the
>>   world and Turkey.
>
>We are still in connection w/the rest of the Muslims.

What is the difference between an arab who thinks his race is
superior and a turk who thinks his race is superior?  They are
both educated by the people with the mentality of Ataturk.
Remember "Ne mutlu Turkum diyene!"
         "How happy is the one who says 'I am a Turk'!"
How about the English, the American, the Egyptian,.....

In the sight of Allah(SWT) the best is with the highest level of
taqwa(God-conciousness) not with the race.

>>3- He advocated corrupted western culture to settle in Turkey.
>
>It is true that he made some aspects of the Western culture settle
>in Turkey, but from an absolutely objective viewpoint one cannot say
>the Western culture is corrupt, one can only say it is different.

Why then you find 30% of the children illegitimate in Western culture?
Why then you find the highest rate of AIDS in the West?
Why then you find the highest divorce rate in the West?
Why then you find the highest rate of rape in the West?
Why then you find the highest rate of teenage pregnancy in West?
Why then do you find the highest level of incest in the West?
....
..

>What he eliminated at that time is not the Islamic script but the Arabic
>script. It happens to be the script of Quran because Mohammed was an
>Arab. If the Islamic prophet were , say, in Africa, the Quran would be
>in Swahili. Is that enough reason to use that language or script in all
>Islamic countries?

If you are offended by the "arabic" script,
then why are not you offended by the latin script?

>In addition, one can learn the Roman alphabet in a fairly short amount of
>time. On the other hand, it would literally take years to become
>proficient in the Arabic script or language. Now if such a transformation
>was needed, one had to do it.

This is a simple excuse told us by the teachers which does not make
sense when compared to Pakistan who is much better off than Turkey
in science at the moment.  How about Japan and China?  Now
Americans are learning Japanese and keeping some Japanese articles
like treasures.

>Currently Religion is a compulsory course in Turkish schools at grades 2
>thru 11. Almost all the books contain 95% Islamic principles and beliefs,
>which is natural since approximately the same percent of the country is
>Islamic. However, if there is a brainwashing going on, it can only be
>against other religions because they are not portrayed well enough in
>the Religion books of the Ministry of Education.

Do they teach the real meaning of the Kalimah Shadah, or do they raise
people like you who believe that Islam means daily physical exercise
and occasional hunger?  If all that education you mentioned above
was worth more, you would not write what you have written above.

>Starting from grade 4 Turkish pupils study Turkish history starting from
>the times when we were in Middle Asia to the 1930's. This continues until
>the 11th grade, and by that time the typical Turkish student has been   
>taught Turkish history three times, each time in increasing detail. This
>includes , of course, the history of the Turkish nation under Islam,
>starting from the 10th century. After having thoroughly seen what the 
>Ottoman empire has turned to after centuries of misery by 1900, the 
>free-minded Turkish student can only be grateful to Ataturk who abolished
>the Islamic rule in Turkey, not exactly because Islam is detrimental to
>national health in itself, but because it has been consistently used as
>a tool for political means. And since Islam has rules for almost every
>area of life, it is a very powerful tool for this reason indeed.

The history of the Turks have not been told properly.  All we know is
about the wars and peace agreements.  This is not proper.
We are not told the motivation of the former rulers.  We are not
told the way they have ruled such a huge country in success    
for ages.  We are not told the events which have greater importance
than the wars and peace agreements.  Hence, a man who studies
Islamic history in Malesia knows much more than me about Turkey.

>Correct, but this severe cut was necessary to rescue a nation from the
>miserable state of affairs prevailing then. 

How do you know?  What is your source?  You were the one who was talking about
being objective.  And then you easily give a biased judgement.

>>7- He murdered thousands of muslim people for just not wearing a
>>   western hat.
>Now all I can tell is why don't you ask some Turkish guys at Ohio State
>about that?

Why?  Because this is not written in your history books, isn't it?

>There are no samples of his actions or words proving, or even suggesting,
>a discrediting attitude towards Islam. He might not be totally Islamic
>in his behaviour and attitudes ( for instance everyone knows he never
>bent down and prayed ) but there is no record showing his dissent
>against Islam. On the contrary, he recommended Islam for the Turkish
>people. 

I guess you did not have a chance to read the messages written by
KELLY.  May be he can post you the sources which explicitly
states that Ataturk even thought of changing the religion of the
country to Christianity.  Would that make you happy?

>The principle of 'Peace in the country, peace on earth' suggests a 
>completely different meaning: I will not attack my neighbour unless
>it attacks me, and peace on earth can only be achieved by peace within
>nations. Apart from that, please recall another principle by him:
>I won't give a feet-square of my country's territory to someone else,
>AND I will not require any other country to give a feet-square to me 
>from its own territory.

A selfish mind.  How about your neighbours?  Is that why Turkey just
watched the slaughter of 1500 hundred civilian in Azerbaijan accross
the border.  And is that why Turkey watching the holocaust in
Bosnia.  "Bana dokunmayan bin yasasin!"
However Turkey was first applying sanctions against Iraq.
Why?  Look at Greece, who keeps feeding Serbs with Oil despite 
U.N. sanctions. 

>Currently, it is against the tradition to talk against Islam or Mohammed
>or Allah in the Turkish public. Try to say Mohammed was a traitor on the
>street in Istanbul, and if the police doesn't get you and put a coke
>bottle in a delicate part of your body, a grocery store owner will most
>probably try to beat you

Yes, but the same people would not mind selling alchol, or newspapers
which can not be sold in the rotten West, because they are even more
rotten due to the pornographic pictures.

>One cannot rely on claims when trying to evaluate great historical 
>figures. One should take a sample of the facts and then do the 
>reasoning, not put forward some ideas and then try to adapt the facts to
>that certain reasoning. Today lots of people claim Mohammed is not a
>prophet at all but was a rich and clever Arabic trader. However, this does
>not change the fact that he was one.

A. Maududi, a prominent Muslim scholar says that if someone believes in the 
prophethood of Muhammad (pbuh) and  do not mind to act against his teachings 
than he is a rejecter of the faith that is kafir.  I pray that you might
increase your knowledge about Islam and close the gap left between you
and your Creator and Sustainer.

>
>A last reminder: what Ataturk did to Turkey should be judged looking at the
>situation of the country before the Republic and after the Republic. No 
>one can deny the FACT that today Turkey is in a state of stability and
>coherence incomparable to the caos in the 1910's. He did not do his
>revolutions to rescue Islam, he did them to rescue the Turkish state.
>Therefore, whether Islam still rules the country or not is an irrelevant
>question.

Many Muslim states were born and died, but Islam always remained as
it was revelaed 1400 years ago.  Therefore there can not be anything such
as "rescueing Islam."

As far as stability and coherence...   These are very exaggerated words
for Turkey.  Even Europeans feel that they are going downward, and therefore
they are in panic now.  Look at the density of the recent meetings.  	
Turkey, still begging to be the tail of the Europe does not deserve
to be called stable and coherent.

However I strongly believe that Turkey can be the leader of the World if it 
return back to the Creator's way.  I want this for my fellows, relatives,
brothers and sisters who deserve it more than kafirs.

**********************************************************************
Allah(SWT) does not change the situation of a people unless they
change themselves.
********************************************Translation of a verse from
********************************************Holy Qur'an................ 

>
>Emre Erkut
>Krannert School, Purdue
>Turkish Education Foundation 1992 Overseas Scholar

Hamid
A servant of the Master of the Heavens and the Earth