HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lnieplo3@ua1ix.ua.edu (Jaroslaw Nieplocha)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
Subject: (Re: Polish complicity - Jewish complicity) AND Glemp's tolerance
Date: 12 Sep 92 19:25:28 GMT
Organization: The University of Alabama

>aleks@cray.com (Aleksander Mazur) writes:
>#dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
>#RWhat about violently intolerant ? Of course Weiss cannot be compared
>#with Glemp - there is no even shred of evidence that Glemp is
               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>#intolerant. 
  ^^^^^^^^^^
>I believe your opinion is not shared by other Polish readers of
                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>this newsgroup.
>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>
Of course, this opinion cannot be shared by anybody who has read/heard
speaches of cardinal Glemp concerning even other than Polish/Jewish issues.

His attitude toward people infected with AIDS, homosexuals, abortion,
or even contraception demonstrates that Glemp is far from being tolerate.

Sometimes he realizes this and tries to explain afterwards  what
he did or  didn't mean to say but this is not convincing at all.

It is very unfortunate that he is the head of Polish Church
and his behavior/handling of many delicate issues including
Polish/Jewish relations is far from being wise or tolerant. 


Jarek Nieplocha 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: defee@tukkasotka.tut.fi (Irek Defee)
Subject: The camps were GERMAN camps, not Polish
Organization: Tampere University of Technology
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 06:40:09 GMT

In article <36947@uflorida.cis.ufl.edu> lbs@madeira.phys.ufl.edu (Lech Borkowski) writes:
>In article <1992Aug25.213113.21458@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au> s1137020@giaec.cc.monash.edu.au (Mariusz Prokopczyk) writes:
>>In article <a6bc453c@random.se> ianf@random.se (Ian Feldman) writes:
>>>  When calling the camps "Polish" the editors are merely trying to
>>>  be accurate in geographical terms, isn't that right...
> Now, with all respect to you Mr. Feldman, this is really 
>a ridiculous statement.  Since when the word "Polish" refers 
>*only* to geography? 

Important point, indeed. The problem is that nowadays Germans as such are 
rarely mentioned in the context of Holocaust. You can see instead words 
"Nazi", "Hitlerism", "Fascist", "IIIrd Reich", etc. Next time if you find 
elaborations in books and magazines (neesweeks, etc.) please make
sensitive yourself to this and you'll see careful editing, like e.g. 
"the Endloesung has been decided and planned in the Nazi capital Berlin". 

I found particularly disturbing fact that it seems Israeli young generation 
looks like to have detached notion of Germans from "Nazi", that is their 
image is 'bad Nazi and friendly Germans`. On the other hand, they think about 
'Polish Nazi` camps. My bet is that this is because of the screening of 
schoolbooks to avoid 'bad` ethnic stereotyping towards Germans, which 
indeed offered generous compensations and help to Israel.

>>>  JUST towards the German people as such.  Remember, the Germans
>>>  have wronged but they are not the same people now as of half a
>>>  century ago.
>>>--Ian Feldman / ianf@random.se /(ianf@dada.uucp)/ "It doesn't matter who

Fine, but would you risk to say the same about Polish people? I suppose
not: they are always same, eternal antisemitism occupying fully their 
brains ;-). And that's the reason why saying now "German camps" 
(without Nazi!) tastes ridiculous, almost racist, while saying "Polish
camps" is absolutely OK. 

> Lech Borkowski

Irek
-- 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: lbs@tkmhp2.physik.uni-karlsruhe.de (Lech Borkowski)
Subject: Re: Polish complicity - Jewish complicity 
Reply-To: lbs@tkm.physik.uni-karlsruhe.de
Organization: Case Western Reserve Univ. Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 05:42:23 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.165003.9799@Princeton.EDU> roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig) writes:
>In article <1992Sep10.060031.19658@mel.dit.csiro.au> marek@mel.dit.csiro.au (Marek T. Michalewicz) writes:

>>Some time ago I watched BBC documentary on Auschwitz. Polish underground 
>>had passed information on the localisation and the functioning of the camp to 
>>Britain. Polish diplomats and politicians in exile tried to persuade 
>>Allies to bomb the camp. There was an interview with Polish member of the 
>>Government in exile who personally tried to convince Eden to act. 
>>Eden and the British top knew about it. 
>>They did nothing. In the last days of the war Allies bombed chemical factory 
>>in Auschwitz, but not the camp.

>What do you mean by "last days of the war"?  Auschwitz was liberated on
>Jan. 27, 1945, over 100 days before the end of the war.  

>Now, as for bombing the camp, this might also have caused great loss of
>life to the prisoners there at the time.  

 Not really. The point is that the Allies did precision
bombing in other cases and were capable of destroying
*at least* the communication lines to the camps, the railways etc.
That would mean that the Germans would not be able to transport
large numbers of Jews to Auschwitz at least for some time. 
Wasn't that worth trying?

>Note also that American troops fought mainly against Germany's
>Western and Southern fronts -- nowhere near the extermination camps.
>There were few opportunities for the American government to do anything.

 The Polish side asked the Allies *to bomb* the camp and/or 
the infrastructure around it. Read it above once more in Marek's post.

>Roger

 Lech Borkowski

Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: jjt@aristotle.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Jack Tuszynski)
Subject: Re: Feminism & Other Issues
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, NASA/Caltech
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 14:57:09 GMT


>Isecond the motion.  Any news on the Jaroszewicz killing?  The only Polish 
>news coming my way, Nowy Dziennik and Donosy, have stopped publishing any 
>info after few days. I suppose that this is a hot topic of discussions in 
>Poland right now.

>Does anybody care to comment?

>I can, sort of, understand a murder.  But torture the guy?


All my friends in Los Angeles ask me "Have you heard that Jaroszewicz was
murdered?"

My own recolection of Jaroszewicz was as a child.  Jokes about Jaroszewicz
frequently made fun of his name "Jarosz" which in Polish means vegetarian.
Supposedly he was turning a whole nation into vegetarians, because during
his rule, as Prime Minister, there was no meat in the stores.  This guy
managed to starve a nation of 36,000,000 people.

My comment?  Who is guilty of his torture and murder?  We saw it here on
s.c.p.  Everybody feels that the communists should be forgiven.  These
people are guilty of a crime.  The crime is that this Jaroszewicz character
was living in a mansion, with jewelry and goods to steal.  This is 
outrageous.  I myself could not bring myself to torture another human
being.  But if someone in my family would have died, someone close, because
they ate rotten meat during his days as Prime Minister, I maybe would 
be so full of hate to torture.  Or if I was in prison, and Jaroszewicz
was the one who gave the order to break my arm if I don't talk, I would
think otherwise about torturing him.  Who is guilty?  Those who support
letting the communists off of the hook.  

My only hope and deepest sincerest wish is that this is the beginning
of a trend.  Because lets face it, there are lots of rich communists
in Poland.  And there is nobody out there to protect them.  The police?
The law?  Forget it.  The law doesnt't work.  If the law were fixed,
the communists would be the first to feel its' affects.  If criminals
were punished, the police would be in prison.  Communists have nice
homes full of valuable objects.  Let's hope it becomes like a noose
around their neck.  It would be poetic justice.


P.S.

The reason that DONOSY isn't saying much about this is that they are
generally a liberal paper.  Liberal in Poland means those intellectuals
in the universities who think so highly of Mazowiecki, Kuron, and
now (beleive it or not) Walesa.  This is the crowd I consider guilty.
From: kkniaz@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Krzysztof W. Kniaz)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
Subject: Re: Polish complicity - Jewish complicity
Date: 11 Sep 92 22:23:15 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <1992Sep11.153834.9504@walter.cray.com> aleks@cray.com (Aleksander Mazur) writes:
>
>In article <88671@netnews.upenn.edu> kkniaz@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Krzysztof W. Kniaz) writes:

>>I was in Poland at that time, and I don't remember anyone accusing
>>rabbi Weiss of braking the law. What kind of criminal activity was
>>he involved in?
>>
>
>I also was in Poland then. If you do not believe that it is law violation,
                                                  ^^^^
>try to do similiar thing in the US. And to be more credible, I would
>suggest to invite one of Ayatollahs, and do it together, just for fun.

>
>A. Mazur

But what? All I know is, he went to Auschwitz to protest against the
presence of the nuns. He entered the nun house, got beaten up by the workers
and went back to USA. I suppouse , he was guilty of criminal trespass?

--

Krzysztof Kniaz, University of Pennsylvania |Due to circumstances beyond
Lab for Research on the Structure of Matter |your control, you're master of 
Philadelphia, PA, 19104, USA                |your fate and captain of your soul
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: lenivch@maclaurin.mit.edu (Witold Biedrzycki)
Subject: Re: Polish complicity - Jewish complicity
Organization: MIT Department of Mathematics, Cambridge, MA
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 16:16:34 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.080616.2652@walter.cray.com> aleks@cray.com (Aleksander Mazur) writes:
>
>In article <1992Sep11.031658.20045@cs.brown.edu> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
>
>>
>>Perhaps violently pro-Jewish? Do you feel Weiss can be compared with
>>Glemp? Does he hate Poles?
[...]

>Do you think that going to another country, attacking convent,
>breaking this way law of foreign country is a good record
>of tolerance ? And in addition going to the court in US (not
>in Poland where breaking tha law happened. When Cardinal Glemp

Weiss sued in a Polish court as well and lost. More on this can be
found in "Chutzpah" by Dershowitz, Weiss' attorney.

Witold Biedrzycki
From: branley@vms.huji.ac.il
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
Subject: Re: To Mariusz
Date: 8 Sep 92 19:30:38 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Hebrew University of Jerusalem

In article <1992Sep3.194636.21029@nntp.nta.no>, stoer@hal.nta.no (Stoer Mechthild
> Also when the Polish bishops wrote their letter
> forgiving and asking for forgiveness (to the Germans)
>>
> Has there been a similar letter with respect to the Jews?
>
> So these are the effects of truthfulness.
>
> Mechthild
> Mechthild.Stoer@nta.no   or    stoer@sc.zib-berlin.de

President Walensa asked for forgiveness  in his speach in Knesseth(israeli
parlament) about a year ago...

       branley,Jerusalem.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: matthew@.cs.mu.oz (Maciek Blasikiewicz)
Subject: Re: To Mariusz
Organization: Computer Science, University of Melbourne, Australia
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 03:50:57 GMT

pawel@tethys.ph.albany.edu writes:

>  Chcialbym Ci zwrocic uwage, ze ton Twojego listu nie jest calkiem
>odpowiedni.

Politruk przemowil. Czekam na pukanie w drzwi po polnocy...

MB
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: green@island.COM (Robert Greenstein)
Subject: Re: To Mariusz
Organization: Strawman Incorporated
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 20:36:01 GMT

In article <1992Sep4.124315.9604@icd.ab.com> minta@triton (Marek Minta) writes:
>In article <87665@netnews.upenn.edu> kkniaz@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Krzysztof W. Kniaz) writes:
>>In article <1992Sep1.195232.5646@island.COM> green@island.COM (Robert Greenstein) writes:
>>
>>>
>>>Yes, many Poles did risk their lives to save Jews. But anti-semitism was
>>>and still is endemic to Polish society. This goes quite a bit beyond 
>>              ^^^^^^^
>>>mere intolerance or prejudice. 
>>
>>You should check your Webster's , before you use a word. 
>>
>
>"Endemic" is used properly in this sentence, however I would disagree
>that the antisemitism is prevalent among Polish people. History provides
>a lot of evidence to make that observation about other nations. However
>this is hardly done anymore. I can't even see all that many Jewish people
>calling Arab people antisemitic. So why Polish. Maybe your statements are
>emotionally biased, Robert. If so, maybe you can look at what causes you
>to have such preconceptions. On the other hand - if you have an access to
>statistics: e.g." Of 1000 Poles, 785 declared themselves as anti-jewish" -
>I will gladly consider this. To wrap it up, I'd say that pointing our 
>national vices in such a tone (even if they existed) is not likely to
>amend them. If you desire a positive change, that is. Contrary - if you
>just like to punch us - then beware. Pollacks are relentless in pissing
>contests, and (as you or your ancestors probably experienced) can be
>quite rude too!

So a Gallup poll on this issue would be more meaningful to you? Frankly,
I think its silly. However, I happened to be following this same thread on
scj and found the following post (quoted without permission):

%In a poll taken in a local paper asking what people thought of the jews, the
%breakdown was along the lines of %5 openly hated them %15 don't like them
%%30 wouldn't mind if they left the country etc..

I have no idea what paper commissioned this poll or who was asked, etc.,
but you wanted statistics. As for your complaint that I was rude, please
tell me how? I said something you didn't like? Sorry about that, but
I fail to see the rudeness in it.
-- 
******************************************************************************
Robert Greenstein           What the fool cannot learn he laughs at, thinking
green@island.com            that by his laughter he shows superiority instead
                            of latent idiocy - M. Corelli
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish,soc.culture.jewish
From: lenivch@maclaurin.mit.edu (Witold Biedrzycki)
Subject: Re: U.S. Justice Department Moves to Revoke Citizenship of Accused Nazi Guard
Organization: MIT Department of Mathematics, Cambridge, MA
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 13:41:03 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.082725.10004@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de> lbs@tkm.physik.uni-karlsruhe.de writes:
>In article <1992Sep11.010622.6349@samba.oit.unc.edu> Nigel.Allen@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Nigel Allen) writes:
>>Here is  a press release from the U.S. Justice Department.
>> Justice Department Moves to Revoke Citizenship of Accused Nazi Guard

[...]
>>   Sher said the initiation of proceedings to denaturalize Bless
>>was a product of OSI's ongoing efforts to identify and take legal
>>action against former participants in Nazi persecution who reside
>>in the United States.  To date, 42 Nazi persecutors have been
>>stripped of U.S. citizenship as a result of OSI's investigations
>>and prosecutions, and 30 persons have been removed from the United
>>States.

For the sake of the ongoing discussion, it would be interesting to know
how many of those 42 persons were Polish. In recent years, I remember
a (rather famous) Ukrainian, a German, an Estonian and a Dutchman. No Poles.

Seems like  the Justice Department records are a better place to 
learn history from than the movie "Shoah".

Ok, let's go back to those "Polish Death Camps". Some people never learn.

Witold Biedrzycki
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: michal@vsnmc2.cern.ch (Michal Szleper)
Subject: Re: Neo-nazisci (Re: The camps were GERMAN camps, not Polish)
Summary: Anty-bandyckie nie anty-cyganskie
Organization: European Organization for Nuclear Research, Geneva
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 13:26:04 GMT

Wlodzimierz Kasprzak writes:

>Ale: czy pamietacie stosunkowo niedawne zamieszki anty-cyganskie w Mlawie ?
>Czy wielu z nas nie wyrazilo swego zrozumienia dla niegodnych, nieludzkich
>czynow polskich obywateli ?

O nie, zdecydowanie nie zgadzam sie z patrzeniem na incydent w Mlawie
jako na "zamieszki anty-cyganskie".  Nie wiem, jaki byl tego wydzwiek za
granica, ale sprawa wygladala mniej wiecej tak.  Pijany Cygan jadac
samochodem zabil kolo Mlawy przechodnia (nie pamietam, czy tylko jednego)
po czym zwial z miejsca wypadku.  Polska policja jak zwykle bezradnie
rozlozyla rece.  Poniewaz byl to juz nie pierwszy przypadek bezkarnego
bandytyzmu w owych okolicach, miejscowa ludnosc postanowila sama
wymierzyc sprawiedliwosc...  Nie twierdze ze zrobila dobrze, by najmniej.
Ale tez nie zgadzam sie na okreslanie owych zajsc mianem po prostu
zamieszek anty-cyganskich.  Byla to spontaniczna reakcja spoleczna
przeciwko bezkarnemu bandytyzmowi.

O ile wiem, bicie cudzoziemcow w Rostocku mialo zupelnie inny
charakter.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
My opinions are my opinions. Quite predictable.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Michal~ Szleper                          "All you need is love, love,
(michal@vsnmc1.cern.ch)                   Love is all you need..."

Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: Polish complicity - Jewish complicity 
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 03:16:58 GMT

aleks@cray.com (Aleksander Mazur) writes:

##Don't be ridiculus. Some reasons for "anti-Polish resentment" were
##given here. I also understand that a leading figure in the Polish
##Catholic Church, Glemp, is vehemently antisemitic. 

#So in that case what would you say about Rabbi Weiss and his action
#in Auschwitz, later in court ? As violently pro-Polish ?

Perhaps violently pro-Jewish? Do you feel Weiss can be compared with
Glemp? Does he hate Poles?

##Personaly, I don't see anything very contructive in the ongoing debate
##about what happened in poland during WW2. I would like to see the
##debate shift to what is happening today, and center on positive
##developments that may heal the scars of the past.
##
##-Danny Keren.

#I also do not see anything constructive in such a discussion. I would
#be as well interested in information about positive developments in that
#area. Could you show some positive developments among Jewish community
except flammatory fireworks ( I am not talking about some concilliatory
#posts placed by some Jews in s.c.j, I highly regarded them). But what

#that was even here shown so many times ? Do you have any explanation
#where is the source of such misrepresentation ? Do you have examples
#of initiatives among Jewish community that would try to straighten
#those flammable misrepresentations ? Do you expect that other Poles
#listening to wave after wave of flammatory accusations will have
#unlimited patience ? Would you ?

I think both sides have to make an effort. There were some flammatory
accusations on both sides. I am not an expert on Jewish-Polish
relations in the US, so I can't answer your questions. Lets face
it, atrocities were committed by some Poles against Jews before,
during and after WW2. Of course they did not even come close to
Nazi atrocities, and were not worse than in other east-European
countries. Hell, if David Duke would (God forbid) become president
of this country, we will probably see the same amount of atrocities
happen right here.

So, as I see it, the Jews don't have to shove the past down the throat
of any nation that harbored antisemitism during that horrible period.
If I thought that was the right thing to do, I would post daily
Holocaust documentation in soc.culture.german; but I don't. Sometimes,
the most respected way to honor the dead is silence.

On the other hand, there is nothing worse than denial of what has
happened. It does not only defame the dead, it re-victimizes the
victim and sets a path for another round. I don't think this is
what we want. 

In a sense, even having this debate is a good thing. The main reason
for prejeduce is ignorance, at least for most people.


-Danny Keren.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
From: aleks@cray.com (Aleksander Mazur)
Subject: Re: Polish complicity - Jewish complicity
Date: 11 Sep 92 12:38:03 CDT


In article <1992Sep11.161634.4339@galois.mit.edu> lenivch@maclaurin.mit.edu (Witold Biedrzycki) writes:
>In article <1992Sep11.080616.2652@walter.cray.com> aleks@cray.com (Aleksander Mazur) writes:
>>
>>In article <1992Sep11.031658.20045@cs.brown.edu> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
>>
>>>
>>>Perhaps violently pro-Jewish? Do you feel Weiss can be compared with
>>>Glemp? Does he hate Poles?
>[...]
>
>>Do you think that going to another country, attacking convent,
>>breaking this way law of foreign country is a good record
>>of tolerance ? And in addition going to the court in US (not
>>in Poland where breaking tha law happened. When Cardinal Glemp
>
>Weiss sued in a Polish court as well and lost. More on this can be
>found in "Chutzpah" by Dershowitz, Weiss' attorney.
>
>Witold Biedrzycki
>
>
>

Thanks for additional info that clarifies that issue. I did not know
about Rabbi Weiss suing in the Polish court but also I meant
something different what still seems to be correct. What I wanted
to say was (and did not do that clearly) that it was strange for me
that after apparent breaking the law in Poland Rabbi Weiss was not 
sued in the Polish court what seemed for me quite appropriate.
If let's say Ayatollah from Iran would come to US and tried similiar
action here I am convinced he would be sued before living the country
and probably he would end up at least paying damages. Instead of that
we could see Rabbi Weiss twice suing in the court. Another strange
detail is that it was possible to sue in New York - what kind of
jurisdiction it is regarding Polish citizens living in Poland 
and taking into consideration that entire action took place in Poland ?
I lost some money in obvious fraud and I wanted to sue company
that did it. I was told then that in order to sue them I would have
to go to Florida where company was located because there was proper
jurisdiction. Because of that kind of setup it is very difficult
in US to get money back after popular mail fraud - nobody wants
to pay additional costs and travel to other states in order to recover
relatively small losses.

A. Mazur
From: etad@levels.unisa.edu.au
Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish
Subject: Re: Antisemitism in Poland.
Date: 8 Sep 92 13:30:23 +0930
Organization: University of South Australia

In article <a6cb6076@random.se>, ianf@random.se (Ian Feldman) writes:
>
>   mario smarduch, <marios@ecs.comm.mot.com> writes>

> # Jacek,
>
> # I just came back from Poland ( I was there for 3 weeks), there is
> # no antisemitism whatsovever in Poland, with the exception of few
> # jokes here and there.  As a matter of fact some of the key people
> # in the Polish governemnt are of Jewish descent, how's that for
> # antisemitism.
>
>   Interestingly enough this attempt at a wholesale whitewash of
>   tradition, occurence and frequency of such a complex and ever-
>   present facet of life in Poland as is the antisemitism is the best
>   illustration Jacek Broda could ever have hoped for. Well done,
>   mario (with a lowercase "m").
>
> --Ian Feldman

Good one, Ian !!! One should kneel down, bang his chest and repeat again and
again: "All Poles are guilty of anti-semitism. I am an ugly anti-semite. All
Poles ....". Otherwise, he will be even more guilty of anti-semitism.

Mario's views are maybe simplistic, but if you consider that an average Pole is
not as obsessed with the Polish-Jewish issue as you are, and that the Polish
society, en mass, is not as strongly anti-semitic as you would like to believe,
well justified by what he has seen in Poland.

And, what do you present in response? Well... bravo, Ian! Excellent line of
argumentation! Don't be surprised if somebody uses the same trick to present a
proof that you are ... (well, insert here something dirty, ugly, insulting,
unbelievable, whatever). If you don't agree, if you deny it, the more you are
... (insert something, again).

-- Arek Dadej

Newsgroups: soc.culture.polish