HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: casspa@atlantis.CS.ORST.EDU (Paul Cass)
Subject: Re: Behavior of pagans
Organization: Computer Science Outreach Services - Oregon State University
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 92 02:26:06 GMT

In article <y2uLuB1w165w@hogbbs.scol.pa.us> wce@hogbbs.scol.pa.us (Bill Eichman) writes:
>
>How about, " I would like to create some pagan safe space where 'scummy' 
>and abusive behavior will be confronted, and healed if possible, but not 
>tolerated..."?? Nah, doesn't have the snappiness of 'men are scum', eh? 
>Well, I'm sure some verbal expert will come up with a cool way of 
>expressing the concept... ;-)
>
>Later, Bill

Just for the sake of curiosity; are there pagan communal groups?  Or
pagan co-op support systems that have been in existence for some time?
It would seem to me that anti-life behavior would be confronted by
peers or social pressure in that sort of arrangement.  Particularly if
the groups were consensus based.

That would be interesting...a Pagan Farm devoted to the care, feeding
and growth of Wiccans and their like.  No doubt it would attract some
interesting visitors.

BB
Paul

-- 
                          * * * * * * *
"It is possible to join forces, to identify common goals, and to agree on
 common action." - U.N. World Commission on Development and Environment
		       casspa@jacobs.cs.orst.edu
From: ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Women and Men Witches
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 20:43:42 EST
Reply-To: ailanth!ailsa@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Organization: Ailanthus Project

mkkuhner@phylo.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner) writes:

> Female supremacy, in my opinion, hurts women.  It denies us the joys
> of full partnership with men in the Craft; it gets in the way of our
                                             ^^ ^^^^ ^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^ ^^^
> love affairs; it prevents equal sharing of responsibility and reward.
  ^^^^ ^^^^^^^

um, only if those affairs are with men...

                                                  -ailsa

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
                    ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com
                                                        ________
I don't care what consequence it brings,        Silence \      / Action
I have been a fool for lesser things.              =     \    /    =
                                                 Death    \  /    Life
                                                           \/
From: holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Women and Men Witches
Date: 20 Nov 92 21:21:33 GMT
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
X-Posted-From: fnalno.fnal.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1992Nov20.030839.22814@news.ysu.edu>, ag055@yfn.ysu.edu (Ward 
Chanley) writes:
> 
> Re: Matriarchy didn't work...
> 
> The only mistake the Matriarchy made was in assuming that their sons would
> never take up arms against their mothers.  When violent overthrow 
> happened, the life-affirmative, art creating cultures of the Goddess were
> unprepared to deal with such violence.  War was never their thing; art, music
> and worship were.

Assuming the Matriarchy's existence, you miss half of it.  If they made a
mistake in assuming that their sons would not rebel, they made a mistake in 
having conditions under which sons found it necessary to rebel.  If the society
was totally alienated from violence, where did the sons learn it?

-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
                                     | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,talk.politics.guns
From: pngai@adobe.com (Phil Ngai)
Subject: Re: Guns & self defense
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated
Distribution: usa
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 10:09:27 GMT

In article <1245@abb-sc.abb-sc.COM> ksm@abb-sc.abb-sc.com (Ashley) writes:
>	Who robs us? Why do they need our money? How can we prevent them from 
>needing to take it from us by force?
>
>	Who rapes us? Why? How can we remove their need to rape?
>
>	Who murders us? Why do they feel they must do so? How can we make sure 
>that they no longer feel this way?

To think, the solution to crime is so simple. Just figure out why criminals
commit crimes and remove their need for doing so or make sure they don't
feel like it anymore.

You will surely win a Nobel Prize for this!

-- 
Will Intel be the only X86 chip maker without a 586?
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Pagan Belief revisited
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 19 Nov 92 21:49:54 GMT

In article <1992Nov19.191319.25227@radian.uucp> markbr%radian@natinst.com (markbr) writes:
>In article <2B0B2FA3.305@news.service.uci.edu> cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
><snip>
>>specifically Hindu ones.  What is the opinion of Hinduism on the
>>mind/body duality?  Are the considered separate, and is the feeding and
>>care of one preferred over the other?  I ask because I know a woman who
>>works at Unex here at UCI who is a Hare Krishna (I may be using this
>>term incorrectly strictly speaking, and if so I apologize; this is the
>>general way the term is used in the US.  If there is a more proper way,
>>feel free to tell me).  Her opinion is that the mind must be fed and
>>that feeding of sensation is not a good thing -- again, a mind/body
>>split with which I disagree.  I was wondering what general Hinduism says
>>about this.
>
>Yay! Another person who thinks "mind-body" dualism is bunk! 
>
>But, Janis, what does this make us, monolists? Or should that be ...monoliths?

Dunno -- how about "intergrated?"  "Connected?"  "Wholists (as oppsed to
"holists")?"  Now that I think about it, "body/mind holists" sounds
okay.

Blessings where you can find them,
Janis


Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra)
Subject: Re: Guns & self defense
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 14:33:16 GMT

In article <JJAS.92Nov22123350@acs.nntp-read.bu.edu> jjas@acs.nntp-read.bu.edu (Jason Stephenson) writes:

 [diatribe about 60,000 years of violent behaviour deleted for bandwidth]

So what's your point here?

Bb,
Corun


-- 
===========================================================================
    Corun MacAnndra    |    My opinions *are* those of my boss, because
  Dark Horde by birth  |   he is me, and I am he, and we are all together.
    Moritu by choice   |                 Coo coo cachoob.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: joann@unixhub.SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Jo Ann Malina)
Subject: Re: the US elections...
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 09:44:59 GMT

In article <1992Nov15.115410.14348@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com> billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
>altheimm@nextnet.csus.edu (Murray Altheim) writes:
>: 
>: >They are to PROTECT us FROM the government.
>: 
>: I agree that it was written with the intent to allow a civilian population
>: to arm against a tyranny, but we've long since passed the point where this
>: is possible.
>
>Hardly true. Witness what the very poorly equipt people in Afghanistan are
>doing in their war against the USSR. They have been fighting for over 10
>years, and they still have not been subjugated.
>

The Russians withdrew from Afghanistan years ago. The groups are fighting
each other, and the government, now. It was predicted that as soon as 
Russian support was withdrawn that the government would collapse, but
it didn't.

However, we smuggled the Afghan rebels all sorts of high-tech portable
weapons during the Russian phase of the war. To see unarmed civilians
versus a well-armed if unofficial army, look at Bosnia. The Serbs have
access to the weapons of the former Yugoslavian government. Those
fighting them, especially the Muslims, have whatever they can scrounge.
They are not doing well.

*) *) *) *) *) *) *) *) *) *) *)!(* (* (* (* (* (* (* (* (* (* (* (* (*
Jo Ann Malina, Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
joann@unixhub.slac.stanford.edu  -or-  415/926-2846
Neither Stanford nor the DOE would be caught dead with these opinions.
Nor do they consult me when formulating theirs.
From: adams@mari.acc-admin.stolaf.edu (Brynach ap Adda)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Fight the Funny-Mentals in Washington State
Date: 18 Nov 92 01:48:51 GMT
Organization: St. Olaf College; Northfield, MN

In article <lg2mgcINNi21@news.bbn.com> dhardin@bbn.com (Dawn Hardin) writes:
>In article <1992Nov11.090005.29476@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com>, billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
>> 
>> Get ready for it. In every state of the nation. Mabon and the OCA have
>                                                  ^^^^^
>
>> vowed to have more measures on the ballots in 1994. He was not just
>> talking about Oregon. Start getting your groups together now, you can
>> bet that he is doing so.
>
>That name gives me a start whenever I see it.  Has anyone else noticed
>the irony of a person with this name giving us all such fits?
>Are there any fundy ministers named "Beltaine"?


In Welsh folklore, Mabon is not the name of a holiday as such (it is
not clear whether Celtic peoples celebrated the solstices and equinoxes
before contact with dominant Germanic cultures - most scholars think
not) - but Mabon ap Modron is a god of youth and vitality, ready to
take on challenges and endure hardship. His cult was popular in the
north of Britain among the Romano-British soldiers who manned Hadrian's
Wall - maybe they thought he might protect them from the Picts and Scots 
or at least ensure them a good afterlife if they died.

Still ironic that this repressive, death-centered creep should bear
the name of the Eternal Youth, though.

>Dawn

Brynach Brawdfran ap Adda       (Sam Adams)   adams@mari.acc-admin.stolaf.edu

"I am the Wheel, I am the Turning..."    - Brian Eno and John Cale
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: "deron douglas" <deron.douglas@canrem.com>
Subject: greetings
Reply-To: "deron douglas" <deron.douglas@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: alt
Date: 19 Nov 92 01:54:40 EST



Welcome John......

        Blessed be
---
  DeLuxe 1.26b #815  <<<<<<< - Mississauga - Ontario - Canada - >>>>>>>
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
From: ag055@yfn.ysu.edu (Ward Chanley)
Subject: Re: Women and Men Witches
Organization: Youngstown State University/Youngstown Free-Net
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 02:38:42 GMT


But when you link power-over with patriarchy and power-from-within
with matriarchy, then you're missing something important.  Patriarchy
is a system where men have the majority of the power.  Matriarchy
is a system where women have the majority of the power.  The assumption
you're making, namely that women in a position of power won't develope
into power-over based creatures, is simply false!
--------------------------------------

I happen todisagree.  From what I've
read, what survives of matriarchal 
culture shows no signs of the glaring
inequities between the sexes which
patriarchy depends upon for it's 
power and survival.  My sources are 
Raine Eisler, Marjita Gimbutas and 
others.  There have been posts here 
in the past trying to discredit the 
work; I'm of the opinion that you 
either accept their conclusions or 
you don't.  I happen to.

I'm not challenging your system of 
belief; if you choose to see matriarchy
as inevitavbly abusive as patriarchy,
that is your right, and I won't waste
your time trying to change your mind.
But again, I simply disagree.

Blessed Be,
Ward

-- 
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: dwindsor@nyx.cs.du.edu (David Windsor)
Subject: Re: Who are we kidding?
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 92 03:41:03 GMT


Only 30 years? Maybe I wont start that RSP =8-) 
I agree that if we don't learn to stop shitting where we eat, Mother
Nature will solve herself of this 'humman' problem like any other bad
infection.  But where did you get the 30 year figure from?

David

Xref: sparky alt.pagan:12877 alt.paranormal:2488 alt.out-of-body:460
From: SWK105@psuvm.psu.edu (Stephen Kuhn)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,alt.paranormal,alt.out-of-body
Subject: Part 2 of last posting
Date: 16 Nov 92 00:50:21 GMT
Organization: Penn State University

Sorry about the vagueity of the last posting.  This is the proper one.  Rob
and I apologize for our inappropriate outburst.  This subject can be
frustrating to talk about.

We would like to know about anyone out there who truly believes in any
mystic abilities / psychic phenomena / unexplained occurances , etc.  We are
interested in correspondance rather than net-posting.  We are able to be
reached through this account, on the Astral Plane, the Spiritual Plane, or
in person.  We have open minds and "we're ready to believe you!" Try either
of us at the following addresses:

Stephen Kuhn                Robert Trayers
Box 1421 Behrend College    Box 1489 Behrend College
Erie, PA 16563              Erie, PA 16563


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------M

May The Astral Plane NEVER sever your silver cord!  - Stephen

If you see a fiery elf with a glowing white sword, bugger off! - Rob
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: markbr%radian@natinst.com (markbr)
Subject: Re: Pagan Belief revisited
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 19:13:19 GMT
Organization: n.o.y.b

In article <2B0B2FA3.305@news.service.uci.edu> cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
<snip>
>specifically Hindu ones.  What is the opinion of Hinduism on the
>mind/body duality?  Are the considered separate, and is the feeding and
>care of one preferred over the other?  I ask because I know a woman who
>works at Unex here at UCI who is a Hare Krishna (I may be using this
>term incorrectly strictly speaking, and if so I apologize; this is the
>general way the term is used in the US.  If there is a more proper way,
>feel free to tell me).  Her opinion is that the mind must be fed and
>that feeding of sensation is not a good thing -- again, a mind/body
>split with which I disagree.  I was wondering what general Hinduism says
>about this.

Yay! Another person who thinks "mind-body" dualism is bunk! 

But, Janis, what does this make us, monolists? Or should that be ...monoliths?

	(B-^}

	bb
	 mark
From: alizard@pil
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: a potential problem for us all
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 92 03:28:04 PST

If anyone has any information on the American Center for Law and Justice
(ACLJ, yes, it does sort of look like ACLU, that's deliberate), which is
run by a branch of the 700 club, please contact me immediately.  These
are the folks who provided legal counsel for Jeff Fenholt when Selena
Fox recently went to court over his threats of harassment.

I need their address, phone number, and a citation of anything you happen
to have read about them.

Why?  I'm doing some research for an article about the ACLJ.  We need to
alert pagans and other occultists around the country of the threat that
the organization poses to anyone who is not a fundamentalist or evangelical
Christian.

If you have any information, please contact me ASAP.

-------------------------------- end of quote

This was sent to me by a friend from the Alliance for Magical and Earth
Religions, an organization devoted to fighting anti-pagan harassment and
discrimination.

The issue she talks about is that of a Xtian fundie organization offshoot
of the 700 club organizing harassment (crowds of fundies with picket
signs screaming Burn, Witch, Burn! Witches Must Die!) of a pagan business
owner connected with Circle Sanctuary, and the ACLJ claiming in
court that this is part of the "religious freedom" of the fundies
it represents. Do send me the information, I'll get it to her...
and post what you can on this sub, this is the sort of thing we
all need to know. Before it happens to YOU.

blessings...
A.Lizard

By the way, for future reference (e.g. if YOU need the help of a
pagan anti-discrimination group) you can reach AMER at:
AMER (Alliance for Magical and Earth Religions) E-mail addresses:
VirtualNET 728@5103  WWIVnet or Icenet 728@5077  WWIVLink  728@15050
Fido-Net: AMER@1:161/233  AdultNET 728@5103
Internet amer@Blue.Kludge.com     

                                                 A.Lizard
====== 93 ====== mea saurus, mea saurus, mea maxima saurus! ====== 93 ======
                  (slogan contributed by Jessica McGeary)
Mail to me should be sent to:       |  There are no fnords in this sig file.
alizard%tweekco%boo@PacBell.COM     |  autoreply to address I posted this
     ^^^ preferred site ^^^         |  from only if you want to wait a
PacBell.COM!boo!tweekco!alizard     |  solstice or two for my answer.

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Subject: Re: Women and Men Witches
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 22:11:44 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalno.fnal.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <Bxx9xD.MBr@encore.com>, aaldrich@encore.com (Al Aldrich) writes:
>>are likely to flip-flop.  Women will be likely to pick up on
> 					 ^^^^^^
>>the power-over that men currently have available to them, and
>>the mirror-image *will* result.
> 		  ^^^^^^
> How do you so easily go from `likely' to `will'? Isn't that also
> making some easy assumptions? I am not so sure that I would want
> a `matriarchy' either, but since neither I nor anyone else here has
> any experience with that model, it is difficult to project what the
> paradigm `might' be and impossible to predict what `will' result.

I *have* observed women in positions of power.  I have observed a percentage of
those women excercise that power responsibly, I have observed a percentage of
women abuse that power.  This abuse has included, in most extreme cases, child
abuse (sexual, physical, emotional) and rape, those supposed bastions of
patriarchy.  Based on this observation, I can reasonably conclude that if women
get the same power that men have had in patriarchy, they will abuse it in the
same ways.
 
> I prefer the model of the `partnership' where neither men nor women
> have any more inherent value than the other. But given a choice
> between patriarchy and matriarchy, at this point in time, I would be
> willing to try matriarchy. :-)

Here we disagree.  I am not willing to live in any type of "archy" setup.  I
happened to be born into a patriarchy, so I work to end it.  I will work
against a matriarchy in the same way.
 
-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
                                     | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
From: alizard@pil
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: re: Description of the Fetal Remains from an Abortion
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 92 04:01:31 PST

Re: Re: Description of the Fetal Remains from an Abortion
 
> From: uphrrmk@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
> Newsgroups: alt.pagan
> Subject: Re: Description of the Fetal Remains from an Abortion
> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 20:09:57 GMT
> In article <Bxy54p.B2H@cscns.com>, rks@cscns.com (Island's Child) writes:
> >dsh@eceyv.ncsu.edu () writes:
> >:   "It was easy to shrug off an aborted pregnancy as nothing more than

I suggest that we not only flame the original poster in E-mail, but, I've
seen this reposted to alt.evil, we should forward copies of whichever posts
we think will most annoy this person in response to this (the one in alt.evil
said that the person responding wanted to be an abortionist when he grew up)
to this person's mailbox as well. Hmmm... since I suggested to
dsh@eceyv.ncsu.edu that this belonged in alt.tasteless, I think I'll repost
it there myself... I'm sure this Bible-thumping Jesus freak moron (I'm aware
of the redundance in that description) will LOVE what the users THERE will
have to say...
blessings...
                                                 A.Lizard
====== 93 ====== mea saurus, mea saurus, mea maxima saurus! ====== 93 ======
                  (slogan contributed by Jessica McGeary)
Mail to me should be sent to:       |  There are no fnords in this sig file.
alizard%tweekco%boo@PacBell.COM     |  autoreply to address I posted this
     ^^^ preferred site ^^^         |  from only if you want to wait a
PacBell.COM!boo!tweekco!alizard     |  solstice or two for my answer.
alizard@seer.mystic.com             |              Kallisti!
^^^use ONLY if all else fails       |  PGP2.0 public key available on request

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Subject: Re: Women and Men Witches
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 02:35:00 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalno.fnal.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <2B0D8E79.16832@news.service.uci.edu>, cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu 
(Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>>Please don't take this as a flame, Janis, but I have found that sometimes it 
>>is necessary to be the target of hate to be able to distinguish between it and
>>anger.  
> 
> And of course, I have never been the target of hate, is that what you're
> saying? 

Not even remotely.  I am saying that you are not the target of *Walker's* hate.

>>Of course, anger and hate are not mutually exclusive, either.  I find
>>her description of her utopia very misandrist.
> 
> And I do not.

The woman says that Gay men can't be happy with each other because there isn't 
a woman there to provide nurturance and sustinance.  In her utopia she
specifies that men who rape are castrated.  In my utopia, there is no rape.

-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
                                     | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: markbr%radian@natinst.com (markbr)
Subject: Re: women and men witches
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 18:47:57 GMT
Organization: n.o.y.b

In article <722163693.0@iphase.infoserv.com> Steve.Dugas@iphase.infoserv.com (Steve Dugas) writes:
>I have read most of the arguments about matriachy v/s patriarchy, and
> they seem to be at somewhat of a stalemate.  How about trying to
> start a system with a new name like GYLANDRIARCHY  for example?  That
> would breake down as "Gy" for the female, "L" as a link, "ANDR" (as
> in andros) for the male aspect.  This would imply a combining of
> energy without dictating either as being the appropriate "ruler".  Ir
> the current models don't work, make a new one with, hopefully, new
> concepts and modes of conduct.
>
Why invent? How about egalitarianism? As in the battle cry of the French
Revolution, "Egalite, Fraternite, Liberte!" (yes, I suppose you *could*
change that middle one to "Sibilite" (from sibling)).

Def: anarchy - no ruler, as opposed to chaos (ex-Yugoslavia). The people
rule themselves.

	mark


Newsgroups: alt.pagan