From: dww@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Michael DWC Wong)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.korean,soc.culture.asian.american,soc.culture.asean
Subject: Re: Freedom of Speech
Date: 3 Sep 92 15:19:28 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.korean
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <1992Sep3.022731.20269@leland.Stanford.EDU> underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe) writes:
>In article <la9qklINN2po@jethro.Corp.Sun.COM>
>melindac@thedarktower.Corp.Sun.COM (Melinda Cheung) writes:
>>		underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe) :
>>		> No.  Generally, I do not call any specific person a 
>>		> "savage", for example.
>>		> There is a difference in the following.  What I 
>>		> generally say is,
>>		>     I.  The Nazis are savages.
>>		>         The Chinese-cu are savages.
>>		> This is different from what Chinese-cu savages 
>>		> frequently say.  For example,
>>		> they say,
>>		>    II.  Dwight is a f*ck*r and a J*p wanna-be.
>>		>         Jane Woo is a wh*t* *ssk*ss*r.
>>		> Category I is _not_ a personal attack.  Category II 
>>		> _is_ a personal attack. There is a difference.
>>...
>>Good point. Dwight, I'd like your answer to this. If you remain silent,
>>I'll apply your logic that silence = consent.
>
>Don't put words into my mouth.
>
>Silence on the part of an individual indicates nothing; however, silence
>on the part of a statistically representative sample of people would
>indicate something.
>
>For example, the silence that we "hear" from the Chinese-cu with regard
>to Tibet indicates that many Chinese-cu, at least apathetically,
>condone the atrocities that are occurring yearly in Tibet.  Of course,
>the proof is in the pudding.  Just log onto some of the predominantly
>Chinese-cu newsgroups, and you, Ms. Cheung, will find that there are
>Chinese-cu who deny the atrocities committed by the Chinese-ge against the
>Tibetan and who, in fact, support the forced annexation of Tibet
>(and Taiwan).

The CHinese individuals you see in the s.c.c net do not represent CHina or
Chinese people in general; just as you do not represent Western culture.
How many Chinese individuals have you interacted to draw a statistically 
relevant conclusion? 
You are entitled to your own views but you SHOULD NOT try to force it
down other people's throat. Remember that this is a free country, every one is 
entitled to his/her own views.


>>Dwight, is okay for me to say that all Stanford students are narrow-minded,
>>ill-informed and bigotted?? After all, I'm directing my comments at a group
>>of people, not individuals.
>
>I'll take this opportunity to indicate a fundamental difference
>between Chinese-cu thought and Western (and Japanese) thought.
>
>Ms. Cheung.  If _you_ choose to make that assessment about all Stanford
>students, then I _support_ your _right_ so.  I would not agree with your
>assessment or even the premise of your assessment, but I _support_
>100% your _right_ to air your views.  We can all learn from views that,
>radical as they might be, differ from our own.
>
>I (1) would _not_ attack you personally, (2) would not harrass you personally,
>(3) would _not_ flood your e-mail box, (4) would _not_ maraude you from
>newsgroup to newsgroup, etc.
>
>This is in stark contrast to the Chinese-cu view of the world.  If they
>don't like the views of a particular person, they think that it is
>all right to (1) attack him personally, (2) harrass him personally,
>(3) flood his e-mail box, (4) maraude him from newsgroup to newsgroup, etc.
>
>On a grander scale, this savage view of the world manifests itself
>clearly in the form of Chinese-cu support for the Chinese gov't's stated
>intention to use military force (including nuclear weapons) to invade
>Taiwan on the very minute that the Taiwanese people verbally declare
>the independence of their nation.  The Chinese-cu have no notion of
>the values conveyed in the Bill of Rights.  It's no surprise that the
>the West formed Amnesty International, an organization based on principles
>that are beyond the comprehension of most Chinese-cu.

I think the babric actions of the Chinese Government is as a result of the
communist totalitarian syatem and not so much as the CHinese culture.
This is what happens in a un-democratic society ; the government can
take advantage of its position to do whatever it wants.
But a democratic government works only if the majority of the people are
"educated" or can think critically. China, I believe, is not ready yet for
democracy. Over 80% of the people are peasants. 
So it just happens that CHina has a bad system of government . 
The actions of the government of China does not represent CHinese attitude.
In any case, China keeps its activities in Tibet secret to the Chinese
people in China, so they do not know much about what the government 
does.

Take a look around the world....
Atrocious and babaric acts are committed by everyone, every race; from
the white poeple in Bosnia and Croatia (Killing babies in a bus) to
Black people in Somalia (Civil war) to the Arabs in Iraq (Saddam Hussein).
One thing common to all these cases is that those people all do not have
a democratic government or are not yet ready for it.
America is lucky to be blessed with a democratic governemnt.
As Americans, you shpuld have compassion on other less fortunate individuals
and not just condemn them outright because they do not have a democratic
government.
Let me re-iterate. Every country of every race is capable of having a democratic governemnt if the majority of the people are educated enough to
be able to think critically. Therefore some countries are more
ready than others for democracy. It is not so much as the culture 
of the individual country.  

>We as Americans (and Asian-Americans) should strongly support the
>principles of the Bill of Rights.  As a consequence, we should strongly
>support the RimPac92 military exercises, in which Japan will participate
>for the very first time with S. Korea and the USA; these nations should
>do everything in their power to ensure that the Chinese-cu keep their
>sticks and stones away from Taiwan when it declares independence and
>away from the rest of Southeast Asia.

Who are you to determine what america needs to do?

>We Americans must "teach" the Chinese-cu that they must respect the
>rights and freedoms (including the right of self-determination) of 
>people.  We must back up our commitment with the full arsenal of Western
>and Northeast Asian military technical might.

If you think you can teach a country to respect rights and freedom with
military might, then you are wrong. Self-determination or democracy
must come from within the people; it must be a change from the roots upwards.

Using military force to teach other countries a lesson sounds pretty babaric
to me. Maybe I could proceed to make a sweeping  generalisation           that western culture is
babaric in that they favor "using force to teach lessons" since you
claim you are full of that. But , unlike you, I would not since you are
only an individual and very well a disgrace to Americans.

You do not really appreciate what REAL American culture is. The culture
that helped build America into such a great country and which is
now gradually being eroded through prosperity and greed.

The genuine Americans (the pioneers ) are hard working, very. They are down
to earth people. They are frugal and save a lot of money.
They respect their elders and belive in strong family bond.

This are the more conspicous qualities of genuine Americans; qualities that
come to your mind first when you think abou them.

And this, seems to me, to be similar to Chinese culture in that respect.
Chinese poeple are hard-working, frugal, and respect their elders too.

What you do, Mr.Joe, is that you pick out only certain minor qualities in
the Chinese culture and attack it. Especially, you pick out isolated
incidents to illustrate your point. Maybe you should be less assertive in 
making your statements...I do make generalisations too, but I am less
assertive , I am willing to change.  

So like you, I can also pick out minor traits of the American people and
focus my attack on it.
I can say that The americans and westerners are racist, and continue to be.
They subject Blacks in the early days to in-human treatment during the slave
trade. They make them work on farms and treat them like animals.
They even believe blacks are inferior and live on trees; some of
them still do have these beliefs...now directed at Africans and not
so much as on Balcks. ...the Klu Klux Klan seems to me to be a pretty
babaric organisation by the White people of America.
The Apartheid regime in South Africa 's inhuman treatment of blacks
seems babaric to me too. They segregated, and still do, to a certain extent ,
blacks from whites.
The skin heads in Germany's recent riots to drive minorities out of
their country seems babaric to me.
The beating up of Rodney King by white policemen and the subsequent acquittal
of these white policemen seems babaric. I can say racism exists in the
western culture and therefore western culture is babaric.
    Western culture has an inherent white supremacy complex.

Like you, I can say, we as Aficans and African-American must
gather up arms and teach the government of America and south-Africa a 
lesson in respecting other race's rights and freedom.

How does that sound, Mr.Doe?

And you still have not find a re-buttal to the actions
, atrocious actions commited by the Japanese to the other ASIAn people.
the rape of Nanking, etc. Is not that a babaric action by the 
Japanese people?

I challenge you to give me a good reply to all of my above statements.
and not just pick minor points and focus your attack on it.
If you can not do that, you are just another vile, lying, cowardly,
dis-oriented fool on the net....like Mr.Rokho Kim.

  
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Seikatsu no imi wa nan desu ka.            \|  |`      | Don't buy from Toyota;
>Shitte itara oshiete kuremasen ka.          | -+-      | especially, don't buy
>                                           /| / \      | from Capitol Toyota in
>Copyright 1992.                                        | San Jose, California.
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Have a nice day,

Michael.

Note:- I changed my finger name.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.korean