From: strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom)
Subject: Re: UMJC (was Re: Gentile Christianity is false?)
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 92 19:35:05 GMT
Organization: IBM Research

In article <140277.2AC1A1AA@paranet.FIDONET.ORG>, Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith) writes:

|> 
|> I don't know what you mean about the above.  Of course the AoG is basically 
|> a gentile based movement.  However, they do have a vision and pray for the 
|> peace of Jerusalem and are committed to Zionisn, the return of the land to 
|> the Jewish people... And they do recognize MJ congregations and support 
|> them.  Is that so bad?  We never said we were a part of Rabbinic Judaism and 
|> to that i affirm over and over...

Let me clarify the focus of the debate here.

Many Jews object that groups like Jews for Jesus
are really Christian missionary organizations
in disguise.  That there is no "Messianic Jewish"
tradition; Messianic Judaism is just a waystation
between conversion by Gentile Christians and
eventual assimilation into Gentile Christianity.
This certainly was the story with my wife's
relatives --- in this case, the time from
conversion to assimilation was less than
a generation.

Many Messianics on this newsgroup have countered
that Messianic "Judaism" is an ancient tradition
going back to the time of the original Jewish
disciples of Jesus.  You yourself have posted this:

Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith) writes:
|> HS=> I can truthfully say that MJism remained unbroken from 30Ce till the middle 
|> HS=> of the 6th century, in which it became very diluted in the east, but picked 
|> HS=> up again strong in the 16th century...


|>  RS=>devote a certain effort in trying to proselytize to Jews.
|>  RS=>When they succeed in getting enough to start their own
|>  RS=>church, they "set up an MJ congregation", and the cycle
|>  RS=>continues.  The MJ congregation remains "affiliated" with
|>  RS=>the Gentile organization from which it was born.
|> 
|> Something like that... No worries there and you would never get us to deny 
|> that either.  And in fact when any Jew comes to one of our congregations 
|> they already know they are going to hear about Yeshua the Messiah and how 
|> G-d kept his promises to our people, and sent theMessiah...  They know the 
|> message and still come, because they are tired, of hearing why the Rabbis 
|> have been so wrong for so long, and every time they say the messiah is 
|> coming he doesn't show up..

But now you contradict your earlier claim.  You can't contend
in one breath that Messianic Judaism has been self-sustaining since
the 16th century, and in another that MJ congregations are
in effect launched and nurtured by Gentile churches like
the AOG until they are sufficiently weaned to become
semi-independent.  The first contention, if true, would
imply that the Messianics are a minority sect of Judaism,
like the Karaites.  But I think the second position is
more accurate:  MJ movements are not evolved historically
from an ancient MJ movement; they are continuously being
created by evangelical churches.

|> 
|>  RS=>be endeavoring to set up MJ congregations?  Lutherans have
|>  RS=>been estranged from original Judaism for years;  their
|>  RS=>founder was profoundly hostile to the Jews.   If Messianic
|>  RS=>Judaism is much older than Lutheranism, why are Lutheran
|>  RS=>churches "setting up" MJ congregations today?
|> 
|> Good Question, and while i could not be a lutheran, it is because some 
|> Lutherans are evangelistic, and do share the good news with our people.  
|> When these people accept Yeshua, they also recognize that they would not 
|> accept the worship of the lutheran church.  In fact Rob, most churches once 
|> they have launced an MJ congregation they cut them loose.  For instance, our 
|> congregaitons within teh AoG are strictly on their own and independent 
|> including mine.  The fellowship comes between ministers and not the 
|> congregation..
|> 
Because the MJ ministers were educated from the same sources
as the AoG ministers.  They weren't educated from your
non-existent "down from the 16th century" MJ "tradition".

-- 
Rob Strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641
IBM Research, 30 Saw Mill River Road, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598