From: leet@ims.com (Lee Thomas)
Subject: Re: What did Judas betray?
Organization: Integrated Measurement Systems, Inc.
	<LEET.92Sep29100139@dove.ims.com> <5751@tuegate.tue.nl>
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 18:03:26 GMT

>>>>> On 30 Sep 92 16:45:03 GMT, wsadjw@rw7.urc.tue.nl (Jan Willem Nienhuys) said:

Jan> In article <LEET.92Sep29100139@dove.ims.com> leet@ims.com (Lee Thomas) writes:

>I personally think that you're partly right, but Judas's primary
>motivation was personal gain (rather like being Jim Bakker's chief
>accountant); he could rip off the chief priests for a bundle, and then
>turn around and be made Secretary of the Treasury under Jesus's
>kingdom.  

Jan> May I repsectfully submit that this is dubious.

You may.  This is a welcome change of tone in this newsgroup.  Thanks.

Jan> (1) the price paid was the equivalent of one (1) slave - a
Jan> symbolic sum in itself. Not a bundle.

Although it is difficult to assign exact amounts to New Testament
coinage, one source I have handy states that thirty tetradrachmas
would be roughly equivalent to four months' wages for a laborer.  In
John 6:7, Philip indicates that two hundred denarii's worth of bread
(approximately fifty tetradrachmas) would hardly give a bare morsel of
bread to 5,000 people, and the tone indicates that Philip thought this
was a great deal of money.  John 12:3-5 indicates that "very costly"
is around three hundred denarii, or seventy-five tetradrachmas.

Furthermore, how much more could Judas expect to get for the sale of a
person?  The price of a slave is probably a reasonable amount, for
bargaining purposes.  I wonder if this amount wasn't chosen to
convince Judas that the leaders' motive was not to kill Jesus - I
would expect a higher price for a "hit", but a lower one for just a
kidnapping.

Jan> (2) the imputation of greed as a prime motive for a traitorous
Jan> Jew seems to me not based on Biblical sources, but on certain
Jan> other less lofty traditions (if you catch my drift) that are not
Jan> becoming for a Sunday school teacher.

I'm really going to have to write to all my friends and ask them if
I'm an anti-Semite - this is getting to be too much.  Jan, my Savior
and Lord is a Jew, his followers were Jews, his early Church was
Jewish for quite some time, most of the New Testament I read was
written by Jews, and I'm not even as good as one of the dogs that gets
to eat the crumbs that fall from the table.  At best, I'm one of the
sheep from "the other fold".  I believe that Judas was greedy because
the apostle John (another Jew, BTW) said Judas was a thief (John 12:6).

Jan> And, in contradiction to Lydick (who has inferred from my remarks
Jan> that my skull must be rather full of bones),

So Carl should read some of your postings in other newsgroups.  Your
intellect is beyond such reproach.

Jan> The problem is why Judas was there at all.  At least that is easy
Jan> to explain: in that way you get at least hold of the snitch if
Jan> he's double crossing you or part of a scheme or trap.  He can't
Jan> get away with the money if the "goods" are not there.  But rely
Jan> on him for identification?  I need more convincing.

You're Simon Peter.  You're sleeping in a garden after your Master has
poked his finger (symbolically) in the eye of the authorities.  You
roll over, and notice one of those authorities (or a henchman, or ...
- at least, not a trusted member of your band) coming toward the group.
You're hotheaded enough to (in the true account) cut off someone's ear
without your Master's permission.  What do you do?  You're the "big
fisherman", you know that "The Sons of Thunder" will probably back you
up.  What do you do?

On the other hand, here comes the group's treasurer, lips puckered,
toward the group ...
--
Lee Thomas,  leet@ims.com      | "This he said, not because he cared for the
Integrated Measurement Systems |  poor, but because he was a thief, and had
9525 SW Gemini Dr.             |  the bag, and bore what was put in it."
Beaverton, Or 97005            |  - John 12:6
(503) 626-7117, ext. 1558      |                                         THUMP!
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic