From: endevour@next10pg2.wam.umd.edu (.)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.afghanistan
Subject: The Afghan Trojan Horse (Re: Hekmatyar an Awliya ..
Date: 5 Oct 92 17:52:43 GMT
Article-I.D.: wam.1992Oct5.175243.1862
Organization: Workstations at Maryland, University of Maryland, College Park

In article <1992Oct2.223624.26444@exu.ericsson.se> exuasqa@exu.ericsson.se  
(Asem Qaddoura,xt-dk,1209) writes:
> In article 13238@wam.umd.edu, endevour@next06csc.wam.umd.edu (.) writes:
> 
> >True that Western news do get influenced by the political normes 
> >of the day and true that it gets twisted now and then. But, to date, 
> >this is one of the least biased system of news gathering so far. 
> >
> >And then the Afghans do not totally rely on western news agencies for 
> >their news gathering. There is about four million Afghans living as 
> >refugees in its neighbouring Pakistan and Iran. These people have eyes 
> >ears and they have no motive to twist what they see and what they hear. 
> >They tell it as it is. That is where most Afghans get their  
information.
> >Mr.Hekmatyar, through the years, have become a seperate and not an 
> >integral factor of Afghan life. His organization is considered shadowy 
> >and its members can not and do not mix well with the people. 
> 
> 	All what I am aasking is: Make sure what you hear is correct,
> 	Dont point fingures at nobody if you don't know for sure-as
> 	you will be questioned by Allah for all what you said, and
> 	how did you make sure that the sources you have are correct.
> 	I have friends, who left to Afghanistan, and two of them were
> 	in the front lines 2-3 weeks ago.  I relate what they say to
> 	what the Kafirs say, and then come up with the conclusion that
> 	every country on this earth(governments) are against the rise
> 	of an Islamic state in Afghanistan.

It is so hard to speak with bird brains like you, Sir, who never seems 
to get the message. Afghanistan has always been an Islamic country. 
The ISLAMIC REPUBLIC that you and your brethren are told to push for 
is an alien concept not compatible with the ISLAM as we know it. It is 
cooked up in the books of Hasan ul Bana, Mawlana Mowdodi and the rest 
of political ( not religious) thinkers of Ikhwani movement.

And sir, you should not be concerned about the other country's efforts to
oppose the creation of yet another terrorist state under the disguise of
ISLAMIZATION because the MUSLIM peaple of Afghanistan love their regligion
and their country too much to let it become a toy for so some decetive 
adventurists. 

Also, do not mock the concept of an ISlAMIC STATE with the parody that 
is enacted in Kabul and given the name of a government. A better title 
for the " set up" in Kabul can be 

" The puppet government of Kabul, run by ISI, and enforced by the 
  pay-rolled advocates of Politicized Islam" 

Warning: no true Afghans are allowed in this set up. All memebers must 
be first cleared by General Durrani, head of ISI. 
 

  Just few days ago, Britain
> 	announced for a meeting that all Mujahideen leaders should 
> 	attend(for a peace talk), and who ever does not come to the
> 	meeting,listen to this, Britain will send their troops to fight
> 	them. 

Please apply some of the philosophy you are asked to preach to your own  
self. Obviously you are either extremely ignorant or simply used to 
distoring facts. A peace talk in Britain ( though I have not read the 
news) is possible and I think is good. Instead of having the cut throats
in Kabul firing missiles at each other thus killing thousands of civilians
it is better to have them sit ( like civilized human beings=> which if
they were truely Muslims they would have learned from Islam) around a 
table and resolve their differences in a peaceful manner. As for sending 
the troops it seems highly unlikely and if is to happen it will be in the
form of a peace keeping troops to save the innocent population from the 
so called "defenders of UMMA".  

 Any way, stop pointing fingures and say that this person
> 	or that person is only seeking power, that is not a good enough
> 	justification.  Those who strive for power don't spend 14+ years
> 	of their life doing so, and then they get nothing.

Good argument. Those who strive for power do so until they rot.  
Mr.Gulbudin will continue his carnage of the Afghan population until  
either he truly destroys Afghanistan or a  bullet ends his miserable 
existance. 


> 	
> 	 
> 
> >
> >I was in Pakistan for over a decade and I saw the Jihad start and  
evolve 
> >into its present form. Mr.Gulbudin's men did not participate in the  
Jihad
> >until they were really forced to. On the contrary they did an excellant
> >job of creating security zones around their arm dumps and strong holds, 
> >fought wars against rival strong commanders and carried out raids  
against
> >political foes. Going through Hezb's zone in Afghanistan was considered
> >as journey through the heart of darkness. Like the Khaqies they would
> >interrogate you and if found guilty of being closely related to an 
> >opponent of Mr.Hekmatyar a firing squad was always ready at hand. 
> 
> 	I am sorry to tell you that what your sources did not have the
> 	right picture, that's all.
> 

No how could you agree. The only picture you guys can see  is yourself on  
the top
of the world ( in this case on the  top of all Afghan Kala Munar ).  
Frankly it does not matter what you guys think. It is like talking to a
Khalqi or Perchami. That person is for ever a communist and even if 
Socratese sits with him and gives him an absolute argument against his
views he or she will simply reiterate ( like a parot) what he was thought
in the initial state of brain washing. Also a lot of peaple, lost in the 
ever changing pace of 20th century, need to believe in something no matter
how absurd. So if you want to believe that Hekmatyar is an Awliya then 
do so ( since in the free world, not in your world) everyone is entitled
to an opinion. But this does not mean that you can go and become an ISI 
agent and through their power impose your will upon the rest of the 
population. No sir that does not work.


> >
> >Definitly. The so called Muslim sources are centers of politicized 
> >activities disquised under the hood of Islam. One would rather deal 
> >with a Kafer who tells on the face that he is Kafer than with a Munafeq
> >whose hue and cry of Islam is yet another disguise for manipulating 
> >poor souls towards their own evil means. 
> >
> 	It is sad to see muslims are thinking that way, and what else
> 	they ignore what the Qur'an says about the feeling of the people
> 	of the book towards us muslims.
> 	We muslims must listen to the Qur'an with heart and souls, not
> 	just ears.

Sad it is. Next time when you call upon Holy Quran to reinforce your 
"beliefs" please be EXTREMELY specific. DOCUMENT IT SO IT CAN BE CHECKED. 
Also make sure the context in which the verse was expressed is also 
mentioned for take out of context it can mean a lot of things. 

And it is by listening to Quran that Allah has thought us not to listen 
to Munafeqeen. 

> 	
> >It is easy to deny reality. Yes, I was not in Kabul and did not witness
> >the 600 rocket/hour raid of Mr.Hekmatyar but enough of my relatives 
> >make out of the carnage the tell me horror stories of what happend and
> >who was responsible for it. Ok, let us assume that my relatives, who  
are
> >Muslims, are confused. Let us try Mr.Hekmatyar's sources themselves.  
They
> >claim to be stationed in certain geographic region of Kabul. Now given 
> >that Mr.Hekmatyar is the strongest gorilla group his men must be in  
full
> >control of that  region. Then also I would be safe to say that any 
> >extended rocketing from that geographic regions must be the doing of 
> >Mr.Hekmatyar's men. Ok, let us assume that the rockets were fired by 
> >a renegade Hezb member. Ok, how can a renegade Hezb member launch 
> >an average of 600 rockets per hour for two days in a row. 
> 
> 	Mr.Hekmatyar(before he lunched his rockets) warned all the people
> 	in Kabul that he will.  Only if communist Dostum, don't surrender
> 	his power to the islamic government.  So, all the people new that
> 	and yes they left Kabul because it was clear to them that the war
> 	between kafirs and Muslims is not over yet.
> 
> 

Sir Kabul city is not a village of fifty people. It is a CITY with  
millions of peopel living in it. You see the Kabul citizens are living  
a war torn city with limited income and resources. They do not have lush 
fields of Heroin in valleys of Helmand, nor do they have fat accounts in
the Swiss and Pakistani banks, nor do they enjoy the patronage of a 
generous GOD FATHER like ISI and Arab Sheikhs, nor do they have stock  
piles of weapons and hundreds of cut throats at their disposal to collect
taxes from occupied territories BUT MR.HEKMATYAR DOES. 

If Mr.Hekmatyar is so careful with his own life that (like a coward) he is
hoping from once cave around Kabul to another then he should have given  
the 
Kabul citizens an equal chance. It is an ultimate act of cowardice and 
for you sir, it is an ultimate act of shamelessness, to say that he 
gave millions of people in a city warning that he was going to level 
the city because he had to get Dostum out of his way. 

As I said earlier, if Mr.Hekmatyar is truely doing all this for the 
Muslim Umma then Kabul citizens, who did not bow to alien domination
of any type i.e Russian or Pakistani, are more than qualified for being
part of this Umma. But just now Mr.Hekmatyar is doing more harm to them
then "Kafer" Dostum is doing. If this is how Mr.Hekmatyar is going to 
bring his "revolution" then I am afraid to think of the day when he has 
the power to implement it.



> >
> >Obviously Mr.Hekmatyar willfully carried out the operation to rid  
himself
> >of the political opponent Mr.Dostum.  Now if Mr.Hekmatyar is a Muslim, 
> >then he should not kill innocent Muslims for the sin of an opponent. 
> >If Hekmatyar do not like Dostum it is because Dostum is considered not 
> >to be a good Muslim and his remaining in power will hurt the umma. But
> 
> 	Dostum is a person who was (all of his life) a communist and
> 	he has been fighting the Mujahideen since the beginig of the
> 	war.  can not say much about him.  How could muslims accept
> 	him as aleader??????	
> >

Either you want to play dumb and pretend you did not understand my  
reasoning or you are actually out of it. Here goes again:  if Dostum
was bad because he was going to hurt Muslims and has hurt Muslims in the
past then out killing him i.e to killing Muslims then Dostum,  
in order to get rid of him is a heck of way to do things. 

As for Dostum as a communist etc etc I must say that next time any of you
brain washed individuals, who have the guts to debate and not throw a lot 
of nonsense at random order, should also explain Mr.Hekamtyar's alliace
with communist and Brethren of Taraki  i.e  General Aslam Watanjar, Tani 
etc etc who have joined their new brethren in Hezb in their  struggle for 
power. Nobody says that they want Dostum as a leader but what we say is 
that this double standard of Dostum-Rabani alliance is bad and  
Hekmatyar-Watanjar alliance is ok will not fly. 

The Afghans condemn both. Both Dostum and Watanjar rightlfully deserve
the hang man's rope for crimes comitted against humanity ( war criminals  
). Both Mr.Rabani's alliance with Dostum and Hekmatyar's alliance with
Watanjar are proofs  that these so called leaders
will sell, happily, the spilled blood of millions of Afghan men, women
and children as long as they can get to power.


> >So, as you can see it is not easy to buy your attempt to take us for  
fools 
> >who are exorcized by the western mass media. We know you all and we (  
the
> >Afghans) will remember all that has passed in the past few years. 
> 
> 	I don't get it!
> >
> >The Kabul residents who left their homes burning, thier children  
burried 
> >under rubble will not forget. Nor it would be easy to deceive them into 
> >thinking that it was for their own good that Hekmatyar destroyed their 
> >city. Afghans are a strange nation. When they get hurt and they are  
weak 
> >they simple make themselves scarce. But then, suddenly, they reappear  
with
> >a force that no mountain can stop. Bacha-e-Saqaw ( son of water  
carrier) 
> >saw the consequences of such a return. So did the communists. So will 
> >Mr.Hekmatyar. It is just a matter of time.  
> 
> 	We have two choices, one is to go there and find out the truth
> 	and help the honest muslims over there, the second is wait and
> 	see what happens, if we choose so we must not jump to conclusions.
> >

I see a very standard reasoning given by your brethren express when they  
feel cornerd  and the argument is :
so why don't you go back to Afghanistan and do something. Good 
question. Why not go back ? Unfortunately we are not willing to submit
ourselves, as willingly as Mr.Hekmatyar and some other Afghans, to the
patronage of a GOD FATHER. Pakistan is keeping a good eye over the 
Afghan activities in west and they have screened out a no no list 
of Afghan nationalists ( => Afghanistan for Afghans and NOT for Pakistani 
or Irani or Saudi or KGB or CIA or MUSAD agents) for whome they deny 
visa under any curcumstances. These highly capable intellectuals who 
could have played a very important role in Afghan Jihad were intimidated 
out of the scene of Jihad by ISI and their "GONDAHS" in Pakistani CID and 
Hezb-e-Islami's terrorist units. They were harassed, beaten, murdered or
slandered in any possible way so their stay in Pakistan to participate in
Jihad was made impossible. But this does not mean that we forgot the 
struggle. This stuggle continues to free Afghanistan, our mother land, 
from all alien dominations. If we die our children will remember and
their children in turn. You can count on thatl. 


> >
> >> You should ask yourself, if Hekmatyar is as you mentioned above, then  
I 
> >> think he gathered all the money(from drugs) in 13 years, If you were  
him
> >> you would leave that war and start using the gathered money?? Please  
> >don't
> >> say his masters will not allow him,
> >
> >First of all his ambitions are far greater than petty drug dealing. He  
is
> >in a way a higly motivated person. He does not want money but power.  
Power
> 
> 	It seems that you know him in person, maybe you just came from
> 	his house, once again what has he got out of it, is he living
> 	in a great castle, house, a mutli-Biln'r.

Humiliating as it is to be concerned with the life and aspiration of a 
mad person, but unfortunatly, yes, we know Mr.Hekmatyar too well. The
reason that he is your leader and not vise versa is obvious. One can see
that you would have stopped once you had your "castle" but he  is 
different. He want to go all the way . He wants it all. According to a 
Pakistani officer who trained Mr.Hekmatyar ( refrence
in the liberary of Congress, task force on terrorism, Afghanistan's 
section) was a power hungry person who would not stop at anything. Try to
get that paper and read it. It will broaden your mind ( if there is 
capacity :-)) 


> 
> >at any cost. His unwillingness to share it with his fellow Peshawarites 
> >is a good indication that he wants it all for himself. And no I will 
> >not say that his masters do not allow him to take the booty and make 
> >a run for it. He does not want to go himself. He wants the power even
> >if it is achieved in the cost of splitting Afghanistan. 
> >
> >Also, can any one tell me if Mr.Hekmatyar ( the AMEER OF HEZB-E-ISLAMI)
> >is fighting for ummah or for the Pushtoons ? it seems to me that  
following
> >his strife with Dostum, who is a Tajik, Mr.Hekmatyar is quit at ease 
> >at being called a Pushtoon leader. So what happened to Hasan-ul-Bana 
> >and Mowlana Mowdodi ? is he not fundamentalist any more ? Has he 
> >decided to become the Pushtoon Leader ? And what kind of Pushtoon  
leader
> >is he that his men are killing the very Pushtoons in Kandahar. Or could
> >it be that the Pushtoons in Kandahar region are Durrani and they are 
> >considered a threat given their tribal link to former King Zaher Shah. 
> 
> 	This arguement has no place, now we are opening a new page that
> 	was not there  14 years ago.  If so, tell me his words about it?

What new page is this ? I do not understan. And also tell you whose words
about what ? And explain why the argument has no place. I think it is the
most important argument which tells us Afghan not to fall for this 
mobalization of Pushtoons against Non-Pushtoons effort that is going on. 

	
> >
> >How is it that it is convinient to be a Pushtoon in Kabul when faced 
> >with the Uzbeks and an Ikhwani in Kandahar when faced with Durannaies.
> >Maybe for once you can accept the fact that Mr.Hekmatyar would crawl 
> >under any skin as long as he can eliminate his opponents. 
> >
> >Do let us know what is Mr.Hekmatyar's current idiological belief so 
> >that we stop listening to the western massmedia and get some info 
> >form the inner circle of Hezb. Try not to mock us and treat us like
> >intelligent being and we will listen.
> >
> > you guys must wake up, and it least
> >> ask Allah to lead you to the truth, and to give victory to those who  
are
> >> on the path of Allah and his Prophet (SAWS).
> >> Until now WE don't deserve an islamic state, why becuase we are not  
> >standing
> >> next to each other, but In-Sha'a-Allah it will come on the hands of  
> >Hekmatyar
> >> and the true muslims.
> >>
> >
> >Afghanistan has always been an Islamic state ( except during the 
> >communist take over) so I do not understand your pushing for it. It is 
> >obvious that the first requirement of the future, free and milli regime 
> >in Afghanistan will be to declare it as an Islamic state. 
> >
> >But what you call the Islamic state ( by your definition) is yet 
> >another form of Maxist Dictatorship except, the dictators claim to 
> >be Muslims. Sir, that dream will never come true as long as one 
> >one Afghan bacha is alive in Afghan Zameen. If you feel like  
adventurism
> >go to your own idiological surrogates ( maybe Sudan) and experiment 
> >as much as you want to. Afghans are no Guinne Pigs on which you can 
> >test your pet idiological pells  which  are suger coated with your  
version
> >of Islam. Afghans are better Muslims than the most of you and fourteen
> >years of  Jihad fe sabeel lullah and two millions of Martyrs are proof  
> >enough. 
> >
> 	I don't know why you are attaking me and all I wish is a true
> 	Islamic state in Afghanistan,  I have all kind of respect for
> 	those Mujahideen in Afghanistan for what they have done to the
> 	muslims, basically they raised the spirit of Jihad among a  
sleeping
> 	Ummah, and I pray for the victory of the true muslims over there.
> 	
> 
> > 

I am not attacking, but I can not stand distortion of some important  
facts. What do you mean by "TRUE" islamic state. And Islamic state is 
an Islamic state ? there can not be a false Islamic state . This "TRUE" 
business tells me that I am to expect more out a such a state then I 
bargained for. This tells me that I should be ready for my culture,  
national identity and my country's sovereignty to be supressed and over
time terminated. This means death to me and I will not go under with 
out a fight. Nor would any other Afghan.