HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tgg@otter.hpl.hp.com (Tom Gardner)
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
Subject: Re: More Books to Avoid (was: VEGETARIAN DIET)
Date: 15 Sep 92 08:25:11 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Bristol, UK.

Before commenting on the article below, perhaps the militant vegetarians might
like to consider the dangers of vegetables:
	- almonds contain hydrogen cyanide
	- some forms of the staple vegetable manioc (aka cassava) contain
	  sufficient prissic acid that, if eaten without _careful_ preparation,
	  you will die
	- some fruits have to be "bletted" before eating, notably medlars
	  and sloes. Bletting corresponds to the early stages of putrefaction
	- because salads are not cooked, the inevitable bacteria on their
	  surfaces are not removed before eating, and hence salads are a 
	  prime cause of food poisioning

Anyway, onto the rubbish.

In sci.med.nutrition, strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight) writes:
> This is not usually accurate. Most meat is "aged" for flavor. Aging
> is a polite way of saying the meat is left to putrefy, tenderizing
> it and giving it more "flavor." Unless one is eating fresh Kosher
> meat, one is likely to be ingesting massive amounts of putrefaction
> bacteria every time one eats meat--and I don't even want to think of
> those who like their meat rare or medium.

"Putrefaction bacteria" is a sufficiently loose phrase that I suspect the 
author does not know what he is talking about. 

> Putrefaction bacteria are usually held in the colon of the animal
> by osmotic pressure, and when the animal is killed they saturate
> the cells of the meat, even before "hanging" or "aging."

Huh! Twit.

> Then there's salmonella. According to the Department of Agriculture
> about 37% of chicken carcasses carry salmonella, roughly constant over
> a decade. Chickens are copraphagous, a polite way of saying they eat
> each others' droppings. During slaughtering the birds' entrails occasionally
> tear, allowing the bacteria to spread. Spraying the carcasses with
> chlorinated water cuts down, but does not eliminate the bacteria. 
> Moreover, current screening relies heavily on visual signs of infection,
> yet bacteria cannot be seen with the naked eye. 60 Minutes did a
> report on one poultry plant in Missouri where 58% of the chicken
> carcasses were contaminated. Attempts at disinfecting these
> animals have failed miserably.

Salmonella is a problem now. It used not to be a problem, and only be came
a problem in the UK after we had imported dried egg from the US during the
WW2, and had fed surplus directly to chickens.

> According to a Newsweek article, "There are simply too many opportunities
> for food to spoil, as every microbiologist has known since Pasteur" So
> much for Annette's textbooks.

Of course. This is also true for vegetarian diets. Ever heard of "bletting"
certain fruits to make them edible. Bletting == controlled putrefaction.
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
From: mrl@nerus.pfc.mit.edu
Subject: RE: Cancer and vitamin C
Organization: MIT PLASMA FUSION CENTER
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 00:00:44 GMT

In a previous article, davef@cs.ubc.ca (David Finkelstein) wrote:
>In article <1992Sep11.211809.6126@emr1.emr.ca> woodgold@emr1.emr.ca (Cathy Woodgold) writes:
>>The book How To Live Longer And Feel Better by Linus Pauling has a 26-page
>>chapter on cancer.  Much of what follows is quoted from that chapter.
>>
> 
>[stuff deleted]
> 
>Of course, it should be pointed out that Linus Pauling has recently
>been diagnosed with cancer of the prostrate.
> 
1) Linus postulates without the Vitamin C, he may have come down with it much
earlier in life, after all he is past 90 years old.
2) On a Dr. Dean Adelle (sp?) show, he mentioned that as we get older, just
about every man's prostate (at least I know how to spell that right) becomes
cancerous in some form or other for some reason that I forget (accumulation of
hormones or something), although it's not malignant in everyone. 

Mark
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
Subject: Re: Diet Coke and Weight Loss (was Re: hypoglycemia)
Date: 10 Sep 92 18:29:05 GMT
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <1992Sep10.181000.6488@leland.Stanford.EDU> djconnel@leland.Stanford.EDU (Daniel Connelly) writes:
>Does diet coke actually help in weight loss?

I doubt it.

>Besides the uncertainties
>in the safety of consuming large amounts of Nutrisweet, I recall hearing of
>studies in which "diet" sweeteners stimulated a hunger response after which
>the individual ended up consuming more calories than if he had consumed
>a sugar-sweetened drink in the first place. 

I keep hearing this, but I've never seen a study which showed this
definitively.  I think it's prudent to be skeptical.

>I personally think herbal tea and plain water are better low-calorie choices.
>For sweet drinks juice and diluted juice drinks are better than coke, in my
>opinion.

1/2 seltzer and 1/2 fruit juice is a nice low-cal drink.
But I'd rather die than drink plain water, and I get my
daily caffeine from Diet Pepsi.  On the other hand, I
make no health claims for my love of DP.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
From: mrl@nerus.pfc.mit.edu
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
Subject: Nutritional/vitamin therapy for MS?
Date: 12 Sep 92 19:02:22 GMT
Organization: MIT PLASMA FUSION CENTER

I know a woman who was recently diagnosed as having MS.  I was wondering if
anyone has had or knows someone who has had experience with nutritional/vitamin
therapy for this disease and whether it can be of any help or not.  Thanks.

Mark
From: rfelix@netcom.com (Robbie Felix)
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
Subject: Re: Food and eyesight
Date: 12 Sep 92 14:46:35 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <3984@sicsun.epfl.ch> basturk@nebin.cica.fr (Erol Basturk) writes:
>There seems to be relations between eyesight and nutrition.
>
>Could anyone tell me if by proper nutrition, or fasting, it's
>really possible to reduce myopia or refractive eyesight problems ?

While I have no answer to your question, I do have an observation
regarding the relationship of nutrition and eyesight. 

Diabetics often experience severe eyesight problems from uncontrolled
diabetes. I believe it is widely known that some diabetics will
actually become blind as a direct result of the disease.

My mother recently had a stroke. In the period 6 months prior, she
noticed a serious failing in her eyesight. It did not occur to her
that this might have been an indication of diabetes ( I am pretty sure
it was!) and she didn't go to a doctor to investigate. I would urge
people to consider that while eyesight may fail with age, a rapid
deterioration could be the sign of a larger problem.

It was only because of the stroke that she was diagnosed with the
diabetes! So it is a good idea to be more aware of the indicators of
diabetes if a person experiences severe eyesight decline.


rf



>
>-- 
>+----------------------------------------------------------------+
> Erol Basturk                                       
> Student, computer networks and telecommunications 
> Marniere 71, CH-2068 HAUTERIVE ; Tel. [++4438] 33 66 81
>+----------------------------------------------------------------+
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
Subject: Re: VEGETARIAN DIETS
Date: 15 Sep 92 04:27:14 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1992Sep15.042714.22238
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <1992Sep11.163232.20405@super.org> wheeler@super.org (Ferrell S. Wheeler) writes:
>Allow me to quote William Robert, M.D., editor of the American Journal
>of Cardiology and an NIH researcher:  "There is a whole list
>of diseases that nonvegetarians get.... You name the disease:
>atherosclerosis, hypertension, adult-onset diabetes, obesity,
>peptic ulser, diverticulosis, breast and colon cancer, trichinosis,
>gallstones, kidney stones -- those are diseases meat eaters get.
>Pure vegetarians [vegans] don't get those diseases."  Now even
>I know he is using a bit of hyperbole, but his point is familiar
>to all those doing research in optimal diets for humans.

Hyperbole doesn't even begin to describe such a statement.
Vegans can and do get any of these, with the exception of
trichinosis.

>  Dean Ornish's Guide to Reversing Heart Disease by D. Ornish, M.D.
>       where he shows that current recommendations by the AMA and
>       the AHA (ie he holds them up to scientific scrutiny) are
>       scientifically unsound.

Does the AMA push a recommended diet?  I don't think so;
it's too busy lobbying.  In any case Ornish's primary point
is that a very low fat essentially vegan diet can be quite
effective in treating even severe hyperlipidemias and
atherosclerosis.  He never struck me as someone who would
claim that higher fat diets are "scientifically unsound";
that distorts his point.  His point is that higher fat "low
fat" diets aren't sufficient to reverse existing heart disease
and by inference, may not be low enough in fat to prevent
as many cases as a lower fat diet would.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
Subject: cheapest vitamin source?
From: timothy@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz (Tim Bates)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 22:55:05 GMT
Organization: University of Auckland, New Zealand.

Hi,

I would like to buy vitamins A,C, and E. What I am looking for is the
cheapest source that will mail overseas (I live in New Zealand).

Any suggestions and FAX numbers appreciated,


thanks

tim bates.
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
From: djconnel@leland.Stanford.EDU (Daniel Connelly)
Subject: Re: Diet Coke and Weight Loss (was Re: hypoglycemia)
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 92 15:39:50 GMT

In article <10SEP199220152634@juliet.caltech.edu> bch@juliet.caltech.edu (MR. MAPLE) writes:
>In article <1992Sep10.182905.8536@spdcc.com>, dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer) writes...
>>In article <1992Sep10.181000.6488@leland.Stanford.EDU> djconnel@leland.Stanford.EDU (Daniel Connelly) writes:
>
>The following does not pertain to those with PKU:
>
>"The FDA has concluded that an acceptable daily intake of aspartame is up to 
>50 milligrams per kilogram of body weight.  If all sugar in the average person's
>diet were replaced with aspartame, the resulting intake would be 34 milligrams
>per kilogram.  A 12-ounce can of diet soda contains approximately 150 to 200
>milligrams of aspartame, which is less than 3 milligrams per kilogram for a
>150-pound person."
>
>Excerpted from _Exchanges for All Occasions_, Marion J. Franz, RD, MS.
>
>Oh, just in case anyone was wondering about breaking aspartame down into 
>methanol, you get about as much methanol from the other foods you eat.
>
>Bryan

The popular press has in the past contained reports of studies in which
those taking aspartame have exhibited reduced concentration.  Plus there
have been the reports of epileptic seizures, although perhaps those were
limited to those with PKU.

Since I have only one body I tend to err on the side of caution
on what I put into it.  High doses of aspartame, it seems to me,
haven't gone through the filter of millions of years of human
evolution that the consumption of more natural foods has.  Just
because the FDA has decided that it lacks sufficient evidence to deny
the food companies the billions of dollars in potential profits to be
gained in the Nutrisweet market doesn't convince me that the
consumption of the substance is safe.  However, I admit to being
uneducated on the issue and so make no claims for anyone but myself;
my ignorance simply makes me more cautious.

Note that I don't necessarily claim regular Coke is better than Diet
Coke; as I also avoid foods with added processed sugar I don't drink
either.  Countless generations of my ancestors got along nicely without
them; I don't think my quality of life has been reduced by the loss.
spell-region

Dan


--
From: rabani@jeeves.ucsd.edu (Ely Rabani)
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
Subject: Re: Is Vitamin C TOXIC ???
Keywords: Is Vitamin C TOXIC ???
Date: 15 Sep 92 09:17:39 GMT
Organization: University of California, San Diego

A few points on this thread:

The originator reported that he and at least some of his family members
experience joint pain upon taking large doses of vitamin C.  The first
question is whether there is greater than usual incidence of gout in
this family.  Gout is due to the crystalization of uric acid at the
joints.  Primates lacking the enzyme needed to synthesize ascorbic acid
have high blood levels of uric acid, possibly because this acts as an
anitoxidant.  It is reasonable to speculate that increased ascorbic acid
might promote this crystalization.

The other possible reason for difficulty in tollerance would also be
genetic.  Some individuals convert any excess ascorbate to oxalate,
which, if memory serves, could have a similar effect at the joints and
would also build up in the kidneys, causing kidney stones.  Do kidney
stones have a high incidence in the family in question?

From what I understand, those not suffering these readily apparent
problems have few if any problems with extended bowel-tolerance
dossages.  

Recently another thread mentioned that iron reacts with vitamin C to
produce hydorxyl radicals.  This is true, but insignificant when
sufficient vitamin C is present, because these hydroxyl radicals are
themselves reduced by aditional vitamin C.  The only problem arises when
there's abundant or overabundant iron and insufficient vitamin C. I
haven't yet read the recent paper which related serum ferritin to heart
attacks.  LA Times coverage of those findings mentioned oxidative damage
esp. in analogy to oxidized cholesterol.  I'd only buy the significance
of the findings if the investigators took oxidative load and antioxidant
profiles into account (which I doubt they did....)

Ely.
From: crystal@glia.biostr.washington.edu (Crystal)
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
Subject: Re: Tumeric and Ginger
Date: 8 Sep 92 02:30:06 GMT
Organization: University of Washington

In <1992Sep8.004147.13146@sserve.cc.adfa.oz.au> rim@csadfa.cs.adfa.oz.au (Bob McKay) writes:

>rwerman@vms.huji.ac.il (ROBERT WERMAN) writes:
>>This can be accomplished by using a teaspoon a day of the spice 
>>turmeric (a very potent lipoxygenase inhibitor, which prevents 
>>lipid peroxidation), as well as a half-teaspoon/day of ginger, a 
>>very potent thromboxane synthetase inhibitor.

>>Any comments?

>Fried lightly with onion, garam masala and lamb, it sounds delicious - which
>of course raises the question: are the effects of the ginger and turmeric
>affected by cooking? 
>-- 

And what are the affects of so much tumeric and ginger on people who are NOT
suffering from heart disease??  Could such inhibitors be dangerous to healthy
people in such quantities?
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Subject: Re: VEGETARIAN DIET
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 16:17:10 GMT

In article <f+znb!=.strnlght@netcom.com> strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight) writes:
>Steve Dyer posts another ignorant, malicious attack on me based on
>his inability to read.

You don't like to be corrected when you're dishing out misinformation, do you?
You'd best get used to it.

>>>Annette says that putrefaction comes from bacteria or yeast not normally
>>>present in the stomach unless one is seriously ill.
>>No, she doesn't say that.  Food does not "putrefy" in the stomach or gut.
>>Period.
>Sorry, Steve. She does say that. Here's the text:

That's because you don't understand what she's saying.

>" The neccessary enzymes for fermentation and putrefaction come
>from bacteria or yeast, and unless you are very ill those critters will
>*not* be present in your stomach."

She's referring to individuals who have achlorhydria (high stomach pH,
low amounts of acid) secondary to a variety of disease states or age.
In these individuals, some bacteria which would ordinarily be killed by
the acidity of the stomach aren't, and _may_ (but usually don't) cause
problems.   But that isn't to say that food is going to ferment in the
stomach in such individuals. 

>Once more you have discredited yourself by using words like "moron"
>when it is you who are off-base.

Not at all.  It's quite an apt phrase.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
From: strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight)
Subject: Re: VEGETARIAN DIET
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 92 16:59:42 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)


Matt Baggott posts another message about the list of MDs endorsing
the latest Fit for Life book.

Let me be perfectly clear for those who haven't followed the logic
of the thread. To avoid ego-induced responses I won't mention names.

Someone posted a claim that the Diamonds' work was rejected by
(paraphrasing) all nutritionists and physicians.

The list of MD endorsements was posted only to refute that inaccurate
contention, and not in any way to provide a de novo argument FOR the
Diamonds' work, though I have found such work highly useful
personally. There have been quite a few factually inaccurate
assertions in the anti-Diamond posts here, mostly because someone who
doesn't think their work valid got carried away with his or her
rhetoric.
From: bradbury@sftwks.UUCP (Robert Bradbury)
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
Subject: Vegetarian diets and cancer [was vegetarianism & nutrition]
Summary: Vegetarian diets may be very good for cancer reduction
Date: 7 Sep 92 21:13:05 GMT
Organization: Softworks Ltd, Seattle, WA

In article <MURPHYG.92Sep4121525@peplinsk.Software.Mitel.COM>
  murphyg@Software.Mitel.COM (Gary Murphy) writes:
>
>Hardly an unbiased group to consult!  I haven't the reference anymore,
>but during the time some quacks (names available on request) insisted my
>wife's cancer would return _unless_ she adopted such a restricted diet,
>I asked a similar question in sci.med and was referred to a 1988 report
>of a ten-year study conducted by the U.S. Department of Health (I think,
>Fed's anyway) where they warned of the B12 deficiency dangers,
>especially for imposing such diets on small children who do not have the
>stores of B12 that can get adults through such a fad.

I think Gary is mixing apples and oranges here.  It is very clear at this
point that a number of nutrients which are high in vegetarian diets
(Vit. C&E, Beta-carotene, selenium (perhaps) and others) are *very*
important in protecting your DNA and preventing cancer.  It is also clear
that the diet typical of developed countries may contain a number of things
which promote cancer (nitrates in meats, carcinogens which result from
char-broiling, etc.) and heart diesease (from the high percentage of
saturated fat).  It is also been shown in large number of calorie
restriction studies that reducing calories will reduce the rate of
cell division which will reduce the occurence of cancer.  In
effect it is possible to "starve" cancers so their promotion is
prevented.  Now, whether a vegetarian diet would have "prevented"
the return of Gary's wife's cancer depends alot on what the cancer
was, what genes were mutated in it, what genetic defects and viruses
she carries and what her diet was before she developed cancer.

I would never say that a vegetarian diet would have a particular
effect in an individual because we all have different genes
and biochemistry.  I would however pretty much guarantee that
if we all switched to a vegetarian diet the cancer rate would
take a sharp drop in a few years.  Another government study
found that in the United States only 9% (!!!) of us are eating
the recomended number of servings of fruits and vegetables.
The "average" diet may have plenty of B12 but is woefully 
deficient in anticarcinogenic nutrients.

Yes, certianly vegans have to be careful of B12 intake but this
can be resolved with a single vitamin pill.   I would argue that
given the relative incidence and costs of cancer vs. B12 deficiency
in developed countries that Gary's priorities are somewhat misplaced.
-- 
Robert Bradbury			uunet!sftwks!bradbury

Death is an imposition on the human race, and no longer acceptable
				Alan Harrington, The Immortalist (1969)
From: ak104@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Robert Clark)
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
Subject: Symptoms of anemia.
Date: 12 Sep 1992 07:03:23 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: ak104@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Robert Clark)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu



  A friend of mine is a vegetarian whose eats dairy products but
no eggs. She's been a vegetarian for 10 years, but she says 
she never did any reading on getting the right nutrition through
a vegetarian diet. She just eats what she likes. 
  I noticed that she seems to have very dry skin and hair.
Could this be a symptom of vitamin B-12 anemia?



					-Bob
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
From: popetz@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Clinton C. Popetz)
Subject: Re: hypoglycemia
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 16:40:56 GMT

rothmund@peanuts.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Baerbel Rothmund) writes:
>blood sugar levels. For some, fruits may also be a good addition as
>fructose~the natural sugar in most fruits~does not require insulin to be
>absorbed into the body cells.

> 1 piece of fruit


>Snack

> 4 crackers (preferably whole wheat)
> 1 piece of fruit


>Snack

> 2 cups plain popcorn
> 1 piece fruit


I want to caution people who have been diagnosed as or think they may be
hypoglycemic about two important words in that first line: "For some, ..."

Fruit on an empty stomach cannot be tolerated by many hypoglycemics, and
if you are trying to control your hypoglycemia and get back to a normal 
level, you should cut out ALL sugars, including fructose, even if you
can handle it, because it does produce an increase in insulin levels. 

				
				in some.... :)

				Clinton Popetz
				popetz@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu

Xref: sparky sci.med.nutrition:162 rec.food.veg:8671
From: young@serum.kodak.com
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition,rec.food.veg
Subject: Re: VEGETARIAN DIET
Date: 10 Sep 92 00:36:39 GMT
Reply-To: young@serum.kodak.com
Organization: Clinical Diagnostics Division, Eastman Kodak Company
Originator: young@sasquatch

In article <1992Sep9.225727.28588@newshost.lanl.gov> srlee@beta.lanl.gov (Stephen R Lee) writes:

[...]

>This may be a stupid question (and/or an FAQ), but is there anything
>wrong with simply taking a multi-vitamin each morning?  The multi-vitamins
>I take have all this stuff in 'em.  Won't that solve the lack of calcium
>*and* B12 problem?

	B12, yes, but multivitamins generally do not contain more than a
	tiny fraction of the calcium required; it's basically a volume
	problem: any multivitamin which contained 100% of the RDA for
	calcium would be rather large.  There may be other reasons as well.


-Rich Young (These are not Kodak's opinions.)
From: aurora@uts.amdahl.com (Sunic Aurora)
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
Subject: Vitamins / Minerals Destroyed by Cooking
Summary: Vitamins / Minerals Destroyed by cooking ??
Date: 14 Sep 92 23:33:04 GMT
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA


What are the vitamins / minerals destroyed by cooking for an extended 
period of time - say boiling for 25 minutes or stir frying for 30 minutes. 
For stuff like beans, one has to soak them overnight ( maybe throw away the
water ) then boils  for atleast an hour ( dried kidney beans ).
What are the nutrients ( apart from carbohydrates ) that survive this ordeal ?
sunil
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition,connect.audit