From: baseball@catch-the-fever.scd.ucar.edu (Gregg Walters)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: US presidential curse
Date: 12 Nov 92 07:58:18 GMT
Organization: Scientific Computing Divison/NCAR Boulder, CO

Barney -

You wrote >>

Returning to your first post for a moment -

>> Derek Prince, an international Bible teacher, ministers on the
>> subject: 'From curses to blessings'. I attended one of his
>> meetings in Hull, England, and when he prayered a simple prayer
>> to break the curse the result was electrifying - people
>> screaming etc. - as the curse was removed.

Did you personally know these curse-victims beforehand?  Or did any
of your Christian friends know them?  Are different curse-victims
healed at every meeting?  I would guess that Prince should be a
candidate for sainthood, but I'm sure that the Pope would ask the
same questions.  I'm not Catholic - anybody who is, know the
procedure?

Then later I had asked -

   Do you believe that all the other presidents under this curse (except
   Reagan) were not freed because, even though prayers were being offered
   for their safety, none specifically referenced this curse?

and I suggested this analogy, as you correctly quoted -

>> >Consider the following scenario which I believe to be analagous.  If
>> >a person prays for a sick person, and this disease has been plaguing
>> >people for ages, but the person praying does not know the name of
>> >the disease, do you mean to say that the sick person will die?

and in response you said -

>> I think a better analogy is between a person praying that all people
>> in a hospital will get better and a specific prayer addressing
>> the need of an individual patient.

I disagree.  And you missed my point.  I asked whether a prayer for the
life of one of the sick individuals will not be granted because the name
of the disease was not specified.  Analagous to praying for the life of
a zero-year president without specifying the name of a curse.  Your
scenario is analagous to a prayer for all the people shot on the same
day as, say, Lincoln.  I'm not questioning the value of prayer here,
but on the additional value you are assigning to something you call
"specific prayer."

In your response to my question about individual prayer for Lincoln,
you proposed -

>> A subsiduary question might be to what extent is a curse binding
>> on a Christian, since believers are freed from the elemental
>> spirits of the universe.

I'm confused.  Your assumption, that "believers are freed from the
elemental spirits of the universe", is new to me.  I have read the New
Testament twice and I don't remember this specific phrase, although
it is of such a nature that I am sure I would not forget it.  Sounds
sort of "New Age" in fact.  Can you give me "chapter and verse"?

Anyway, given this "freedom," are you troubled that this would imply
(as it does to me) that all the zero-year presidents before Reagan were
not Christian?  I reject this.  It smacks of a kind of revisionism
tailored to rationalize the need for "specific prayer."  But for the
sake of argument, let us allow this revisionistic interpretation.
Making this allowance permits us (if not compels us) to acknowledge
the possibility I raised earlier, to which you answered:

>> >How do we know that the presidents to be elected in 2000, 2020, ...
>> >etc have been freed from this curse?  Perhaps each such president
>> >must offer the same prayer as was offered by/for Reagan?
>>
>> My understanding of the nature and power of curses is that they
>> can be broken for good, and that this was the case here.

But neither of us will really know for sure until the president elected
in 2000 actually survives his term in office.  Yet I can imagine all
kinds of events that might persuade either of us one way or the other.

In particular, suppose another native American has already invoked the
same curse all over again?

And I asked -

>> >As you understand it, what was the "prayer formula" that broke this
>> >curse?  I am asking who was praying for who, and with what words,
>> >since your messages seem to suggest that this was significant.
>>
>> It is not so much a "prayer formula" in the sense that
>> particular words must be said, but rather a specific prayer over
>> the individual to address the spiritual need, in this case to
>> break an occultic curse.

This begs my question.  What is "specific prayer"?  The way you compare
it's effectiveness to (general) prayer DOES imply the need for some
specific knowledge if not specific words.  I reject the notion that God
or Jesus will ignore needs because the prayer was not specific.  A
cruel requirement that I do not believe is mentioned anywhere in the
bible.  For that matter, I believe that God is always aware of our
individual spiritual needs, whether we voice them directly or not.

Lastly, if your assertion that only specific prayer works, does this
mean that (general) prayer is pointless?  Like, are you saying that
praying the "Lord's Prayer" won't accomplish anything?

I just don't buy it.  These zero-year presidents have been the victims
of illnesses and assassins with their own motivations, and the zero-year
thing is just a coincidence.  No curse, spell or demon is needed to
explain the cause of their deaths.  Nor is any exorcist needed to voice
a "specific prayer" to terminate the coincidences.  I maintain that
this is just a mindgame to divert us.

I whole-heartedly support Steve Hayes' request (article 16436) >>

>> When was this curse put on? And by whom? And why? Why every twenty years?
>>
>> And who was the group of Christians? Will any of them stand up and testify?

Pending your delivery of information that identifies the native American
responsible for the curse, his nation, the date it was made, the text
of the curse, and where I can see this for myslef, I withdraw from this
discussion.  As far as I'm concerned, I have just wasted a few hours
entertaining a strawman theory.

Gregg