From: ttobler@unislc.uucp (Trent Tobler)
Subject: Re: To All Truth Seekers!
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Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 20:53:08 GMT

Victoria Goff (goff@intruder.navo.navy.mil) wrote:
: 
: A Quote from Alt.Athesim Frequently Asked Questions:
: 
:      "Most atheists put truth first.  If searching for truth causes you to
:       become uncomfortable, that's too bad."
: 
: 
: I assume that this implies that they evaluate objectively both sides
: of a topic. If this be the case, then if they are correct, then there
: must be a sound, reasonable explanation as to who Jesus Christ was.
: 
: If there are any other theories the atheist community can offer, please
: post them! 
: 
: JESUS WAS A MYTH-
:    Question: The bible, as a history book, is astonishingly correct when
: 	     used to understand archeological remains and ancient writings.
: 	     All we have to validate the existance of any person who has
: 	     died and all those who knew him personally have died is
: 	     a written record of his life and times or pictures. If
: 	     the bible is not a reliable account then how do we know
: 	     that long dead people, for example, Alexander the Great 
: 	     really lived and was not just a made up myth? 

Please give references to the astonishingly correct archeological remains.
I believe most of these were in the old testament, and therefore, can not
validify the existance of Jesus.  Evidence that indicate some truth in a
book does not validify all parts of that book (Mixing truth with fiction
is a common writing tool.)  For example, there is a lot of evidence that
the greecian empire existed.  Does this mean that their gods and beliefs
are any more valid (ala. the writings of homer, etc.) than those of the
christian and jewish history?

: 
: Assuming Jesus is not a myth, that he really lived:
: 
: BIBLE ACCOUNT IS INCORRECT:
:    Question: If the account is incorrect, then many people have participated
: 	     in the writing of a story that certainly would have required
:              very wicked hearts to produce. This devious plan would have
:              had to perpetrate a course of at least 8 centuries and I
:              suggest this because of the book of Isaiah where the
:              prophesies of Christ's birth circumstances, purpose and
:              so forth are so clearly described. All told, around 250
:              detailed prophecies were fulfilled by Jesus. For this
:              to be true, this is a scam of enormous proportions and
:              where is the explanation of how such a scam could be
:              carried out?

Are you saying that people are not gullible, not inclined to believe something
for the sake of not rocking the boat?  What about the belief with the earth
at center of the universe?  The belief that knocking on wood will bring
you luck?  What evidence do you present that says false beliefs do NOT
perpetrate across decades, centuries, and millenia.  Wicked hearts to produce?
Sort of poetic, but are you saying that there are NOT people like this in the
world?

: BIBLE ACCOUNT IS CORRECT:
:    Question: Jesus claimed to be God in the flesh. The creator of the
:              universe became man as was planned before the creation.
:              The scripture states that man was created in the image
:              of God and that knowledge of good and evil is something
:              only God can handle, man would sin and God knew it. He
:              planned a way to help man gain this knowledge and yet
:              be brought back to a state where there is no sin and
:              a relationship with God is restored. Jesus claimed that
:              his death would insure that justice be done in that
:              payment for sin is made. God required judgement on sin
:              because without judgement, there can be no justice.
:              Was Jesus really the promised Messiah?
:
: JESUS LIED:
:    Question: Then he lied? This is pretty warped. He would have to be
:              mental to make up such a thing. And the deception would`
:              have to include the disciples and his family. What about
:              the miracles? Remember, this is assuming the account is
:              correct. If position is that the miracles were made up,
:              then see BIBLE ACCOUNT IS INCORRECT.

Very good.  Maybe they were made up, or maybe the people wanted so badly
to believe him that they too decieved themselves..

: 
: JESUS HONESTLY THOUGHT HE WAS THE SON OF GOD BUT HE WASN'T:
:    Question: This is the viewpoint of those who were responsible for
:              crucifying him. Jesus was accused of performing miracles
:              by the power of the devil. You know Jesus's answer, a
:              house divided can not stand. Doesn't the perfect logic
:              that Jesus used to answer the accusing questions leave
:              those of us who think we are so logical, intelligent and
:              so very educated, just a little uneasy??

Perfect logic?  What is perfect about a vague answer?  Suppose that there
exists a devil, and that jesus could somehow tap these powers.  What reason
would there be that would say Jesus could NOT proclaim himself god?

Why do you feel this is so logical?

BTW, many people who have schizophrenia, and other disillusioning mental
disorders are highly intelligent. (Sorry, don't have my references with
me right now.. :)

: 
: THE BIBLE IS CORRECT AND JESUS IS THE MESSIAH:
:    Question: Then there really is a heaven and a hell and judgement of
:              sin will place us in one or the other one of these days.
:              How could anyone believe this and not turn to God? I suspect
:              it is because deep down inside, they really don't believe that
:              this is truth therefore, they must have some reasonable 
:              explanation..??? (Select other explanation now)

Well, so far, the logic does not lead to this conclusion.  But suppose
it is true.  How is one to find out that it is true?  Does one have to
actually believe it to find out?  Suppose that one does not believe it.
How does one come to believe it?  I am sure there are many people here
on this board that are curious on this question.  Suppose they finally
learn to believe it, and rather than bring them the comfort and happiness
that you (or this god) promise, it causes the misery, pain, agony, and
then they die, and it really wasn't true, but really a hoax, a facade,
a deception.

: 
: AND NOW- THE FINAL POSITION THAT NO INTELLIGENT, UNBIASED, TRUTH SEEKING
: COMMITTED ATHEIST WOULD NEVER TAKE (or would they)

Hmm, using double negatives here... let's see... the final position that
no intelligent, unbaised, truth seeking, committed atheist would never
take...  hmm...
  the final position that an intelligent, unbiased, truth seeking, committed
  athiest MUST take?   Are you playing word games or was it a mistake?

: I don't care if Jesus did or did not exist. I don't care if the bible

I don't care if Jesus did or did not exist.  I don't think it matters since
I do not believe in a god.  It would be interesting to find out that these
stories in the bible WERE based on a real person, but not life shattering.

: is true or not. I don't want to believe in God and I don't have to if

Hmm, at one time, I wanted to believe in the christian god.  Now, it's not
a "don't want to", but a "I feel that the fact or fiction of the existance
of a god is not attainable by humankind.  Therefore, either stand, that
god is fact, or that god is fiction is equally valid.  So, take the stand
that brings you more happiness, makes you more comfortable, or whatever the
other priorities in your life dictate are important."

: I don't want to so you can take your self-righteous, ignorant arguments
: elsewhere. Gee, you christians are all alike (and if you misspell anything,
: you are son of quayle) and why don't you study up on religious wars and
: then tell me where God is. This world would be a whole lot better if
: there weren't these bible thumping christians around. You believe a
: book that says in the last days, God will remove the christians before
: some kind of so called tribulation period. I'm sick of you trying to
: save my soul...LEAVE ME ALONE!

Hmm, I guess there are always people like this on both sides.  Fanatical
beliefs and behavior tend to lead one to stereotype all others of a
certain class.  Try to avoid doing this, as it will make you look fanatical
too.


--
  Trent Tobler - ttobler@unislc.slc.unisys.com ttobler@csulx.weber.edu
Newsgroups: alt.atheism