Newsgroups: alt.callahans
Subject: Re:  Science and god:  Are they incompatible?  If so, why?
From: jwwalden@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu (P'relan)
Date: 17 Nov 92 22:39:26 -0500
Organization: Dept. of Physics

In article <1992Nov17.044659.16994@muddcs.claremont.edu>, dgreen@jarthur.claremont.edu (David Green) writes:
> In some article lydick@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU writes:
> ->In some other article dph1jg@tuda.ncl.ac.uk (J.P.Gardner) writes:
> ->What I called bullshit was the standard Christian explanation for why
> ->so many bad deeds have been performed by Christians:  "But they weren't REAL
> ->Christians," where the person who uses that excuse either can't or won't
> ->provide an operational definition of "real Christian."
> 
> My response to this is that people are not--and have never been--perfect.  It
> is entirely possible to get so caught up in one's zeal that one loses sight
> of what it is that one is zealous for.  I can't explain why people do "bad
> deeds"--I am not those people, nor will I ever be.  All I can do is to say
> that I try my darndest not to do such things.  To reiterate something I said
> before relating to this topic: "An idea is not responsible for the people who
> believe in it."  To hold me accountable for the actions of Christians in days
> long past is ludicrous.  I can't explain why they did what they did--but the
> point is that I shouldn't have to.  Judge me by what you see in me.

I'm not sure how your quote relates to your last three sentences.  Certainly
I don't think that you should be accountable for the actions of Christians long
past (or any person other than yourself whose actions you don't support) unless
you want to be credited for their good actions.  However, I disagree totally
with the quote that "an idea is not responisble for the people who believe
in it."  An idea can sound good, but it's what people do with it that's the
important part (at least it is to me - I want to see it experimentally
verified).  Sure, your ideal may be perfect but if not much comes of it, what
good is it?
 
> On the other hand, what sense does it make to go around saying, "Yeah, I
> believe in God, but you know, it just doesn't do me much good--I'm just like
> everyone else, and I'm not the better for it"?  What good would a faith like
> *that* be?  ...And if I do consider myself to be "better" than other people,
> it's in the sense relative to my own morals; I have a moral code and I try
> to stick to it--this doesn't mean that I can't fail, sometimes badly, but
> I never claimed to be perfect.

Then again, why does believing in a deity or being a Christian, make you more
moral than anyone else?  Especially when empirical evidence doesn't show a
clear cut difference.
 
> I happen to consider agnosticism (and athiesm) religions in their own rights.
> Granted, I still think that Nightstalker's division was quite less than
> accurate, but I don't think he was deliberately trying to be insulting with
> it.

If you consider agnosticism or weak atheism ("I don't believe in a god because
I've never seen any evidence of one, but I recognize that's not a proof of
non-existence; still, what choice do I have for where does believing in things
that I have no evidence for stop?") a religion, then everything is a religion
and religion becomes a less useful word because it can no longer be used to
categorize in that manner.
 
> ->He wasn't even talking about "Christianity and not anything else."  He was
> ->talking about his own particular brand of Christianity and not anything else. 
> 
> Are you implying that there are people who believe exactly the same things
> out there?  People are individuals, and, as such, are subject to difference
> of opinion.  Nightstalker's piece was written from his own point of view,
> with regard to his standpoint on Christianity.  There are enough different
> 'flavors' of Christianity--and 'subflavors,' if you will, within those--that
> writing a piece summing the overall view of all Christians would be well-
> nigh impossible.

There might be, but probably not.  I think that you do need to recognize broad
divisions though or why not lump Christianity in with Judaism and Islam and
call it Westernism and then let's add all those other religions and throw in
atheism, agnosticism and all the rest since those are religions too.
 
> I explained above how I make my decisions on what to believe.  I pray, and I
> try to let God guide me to what is right, and what is not.  It's not something
> I could write a book on the methodology of; it is rather more of a personal
> experience.

That seems the best way to do things...
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 P'relan (and Birith)      	   ``Time stand still -
 jwwalden@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu      I'm not looking back -
  or jwwalden@miavx1.bitnet	     But I want to look around me now.'' - RUSH