HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mikeh@kralizec.zeta.org.au (Michael Hore)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: GEnie Aust. shoots itself in the foot?
Date: 30 Sep 92 12:03:28 GMT
Organization: Kralizec Dialup Unix Sydney: +61-2-837-1183 V.32


I've just discovered that my recent inability to access GEnie was due
to a change on their part, which was notified by a letter (sent to my
old address, so not received by me yet).

Someone at GE here in Australia has since told me that they're
trying to work out more and better systems of billing with the
local banks, but haven't been able to do it yet.  So until this
system is worked out, which could take a year or more, we can't
direct dial GEnie.  We can only continue to access it via
Austpac (our wonderful Aussie packet-switched system, which is
a great success, in the sense that it generates an impressive
income for Telecom).  (Read heavy irony here.)

This interim scheme is out of my price range (I'm not a big
corporate account), so until GEnie come up with a decent system,
I can't access it!

This is a bit of a shock, and looks to me a lot like moving the
goalposts (an Aussie expression, with obvious meaning).  Why
the former system couldn't have been continued while the details
of the new one were worked out is beyond me.

So future Mops support will have to be here on comp.lang.forth,
and I'll have to go back to mailing disks around...

--  Mike.     
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Hore     ***EX-GEnie:    M.HORE***
              internet:    mikeh@kralizec.zeta.org.au
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
From: jax@well.sf.ca.us (Jack J. Woehr)
Subject: Re: Where is DASH FIND?
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 03:01:17 GMT

In <1992Sep29.034839.22477@menudo.uh.edu> mylai@cs.uh.edu (Ming-Yung Lai) writes:

> Is the FORTH recruiter DASH FIND ASSOCIATION still available?

Dash, Find is now part of the Rochester Forth Institute headed by
Larry Forseley, 70 Elmwood Ave., Rochester, NY.

	716-235-0168
	716-328-6426 FAX

		=jax=
-- 
 # jax@well.{UUCP,sf.ca.us}  # #  Member  # # Vice President,       #
 # du!isis!koscej!jax        # # X3J14 TC # #  Forth Interest Group #
 # JAX on GEnie              # # for ANS  # #   P.O. Box 8231       #
 # SYSOP RCFB (303) 278-0364 # #  Forth   # #    San Jose CA 95155  #
From: ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Forth in print
Date: 26 Sep 92 12:33:03 GMT
Organization: EIEI-U

Category 4,  Topic 7
Message 146       Fri Sep 25, 1992
ELLIOTT.C                    at 12:44 EDT
 
 -----via CRS Premium Bulletin Board
 Date: 09-23-92 (16:00)
   To: DAVE OWSLEY
 From: JACK WOEHR
 Subj: FORTH


 -> I saw this board existed reading internet mail on our SUN at
 work I -> played with F83 and still dabble in it. I am
 interested in in latest -> inovations in Forth. Where can your
 book be obtained?

         M&T Books (Dr. Dobb's) will be publishing it later this
 year (_ANS Forth: The New Model_).

 -> is there an ftp site or bbs site for a version of ANS Forth?

         Both ZEN Forth and JAXForth here on the RCFB are proto-
 ANS Forths, albeit not entirely up to date with the latest rev
 of the draft proposed Standard.

                 =jax=

 NET/Mail : RCFB Golden, CO (303) 278-0364 VESTA & Denver FIG for
 Forth! ---
  * The GrapeVine/Ferret Face BBS * NLR,ARK * 501-753-8121 DS *
  * PostLink(tm) v1.02  GRAPEVINE (#318) : RelayNet(tm)

 PCRelay:RUNNINGA -> #2 RelayNet (tm) 4.11                The
 Running Board * 301 229-5342 * MD  

-----
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From: ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Forth in the Marketplace
Date: 2 Oct 92 12:15:03 GMT
Organization: EIEI-U

Category 2,  Topic 11
Message 139       Fri Oct 02, 1992
E.RATHER [Elizabeth]         at 00:59 EDT
 
Having been off the net for several weeks for a variety of reasons, I find
much too much in this topic to respond to usefully tonight, but can't resist
about $.02 worth...

Mainly on the subject of speed...James Hague wrote, early in this thread,
revealingly, "...I do most on my non-work programming..." implying (at least
to me) that this means Forth.  As a bunch of folks for whom Forth is very
definitly work, and a survival item in a very dense jungle, we find speed very
definitely an issue.

But it is a serious mistake to focus, as so many do, on comparative speeds of
languages, and quote Sieves, etc.  In the real world, what makes an
_application_ run fast or slow has very little to do with the language its
written in and much more to do with issues like OS I/O performance and overall
program design.  Academically, you could say, "well, assuming those things are
equal..."  But they aren't, or don't have to be.   We have produced programs
that out- performed their assembly language equivalents, not because polyFORTH
is faster than assembly language but because we attacked the problem where it
mattered, with a very fast executive & I/O drivers and creative application
design.  Now the first of these is a product issue, and the last somewhat a
matter of individual excellence, but I contend that Forth creates pressures
that support both of these so long as the programmers involved care, and don't
throw up thier hands as many of the writers here seem to do.

I also note that a number of points made by others about facilites needed by
Forth are offered by a number of vendors, and embraced by ANS Forth (e.g.,
file interfaces, floating point, etc.), and that the more producers that
embrace these things soon the more competitive the language will be.
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From: mikeh@kralizec.zeta.org.au (Michael Hore)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: "Free" Forth is expensive
Date: 30 Sep 92 13:48:35 GMT
Organization: Kralizec Dialup Unix Sydney: +61-2-837-1183 V.32


Mike Haas writes:

>JForth provides the same CALL-type word to access the Amiga's libraries.
>In fact, the Amiga is much better, because on the Mac, many of the
>routines documented in 'Inside Mac' are marked "Not in Rom".  This means
>you have to LINK the object into your application...so you know where
>that leaves any Forth.  For example, you cannot call words like
>TopMem(), MoveHHi(), PrOpen(), RamSDOpen(), Open & CloseDriver(),
>StartSound()... on and on...many more...from any Forth.

This info isn't quite up-to-date (no criticism here; it's hard enough
for those of us in the Mac scene to keep up!)

These days Apple distribute all their Mac system calls in source form
in header files for C, Pascal and Assembler.  The specific sequences
may involve a trap, or a chunk of ordinary code, or a combination,
and the implementation is quite likely to change from one system release
to the next!  For example, Apple are trying to discourage direct
use of low memory globals, so they're defining calls to provide the
same info.  At the moment, these calls are just implemented by code
which accesses the globals!  But of course, this will change at
some unknown time in the future...

So to have any chance of keeping up, a Forth on the Mac has to
access these header files from Apple, directly or indirectly.
There's just no alternative.  IMHO the best way is to preprocess
the files into a suitable intermediate form to allow fast lookup,
then do the lookup whenever CALL xxx is encountered while
compiling.  Both Yerk and Mops have a preliminary version of
something like this, and I plan on further improving the Mops
version in the next release.

--------------------------------------------------------
Mike Hore        Internet:    mikeh@kralizec.zeta.org.au
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
From: vrkaramc@mtu.edu (Karamchedu)
Subject: Re:Mahesh Govind Joshi
Organization: Michigan Technological University
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 03:22:29 GMT


Sometime back you (Mr.Mahesh Govind Joshi) were reporting a problem about 
installing Alan Pratt's C-Forth.  Here's is the probable reason.

The Error code 1 (or whatever that was) was flashed because the `nf' file was
not to be `found' by the compiler. What may be solution is as soon as you 
download the software, add the path in your .login file and source it before 
you run the forth  Makefile. Even then if the compiler gives error, watch for
the file `forth.block' before you execute the command `l2b < forth.line > forth.block. It will be 0 bytes. Remove that file, better delete that file, and execute the `l2b....' command. You shouldn't have any problem.


Good luck

Karamchedu Raj
From: ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Forth in print
Date: 28 Sep 92 11:33:49 GMT
Organization: EIEI-U

Category 4,  Topic 7
Message 149       Mon Sep 28, 1992
JDHALL [John]                at 02:03 EDT
 
Just want to remind you that FIG has a new address and phone number.

           Forth Interest Group
           P.O. Box 2154
           Oakland, CA  94621
           Phone (510) 89-FORTH or 893-6784
           Fax (510) 535-1294

   John Hall

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Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
From: spelk@cix.compulink.co.uk (MPE Ltd)
Subject: cross compilers
Reply-To: spelk@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 22:40:50 +0000

>> Is there such a cross-compiler that does not require some
>> 'tweaking' of the code?  I've never seen one.

>Depends on what you mean by 'tweaking.'  Stephen Pelc is either
>too modest, or inhibited by Internet restrictions, so let me
>mention that his MPE cross-compiler let me move Forth definitions
>from resident compilation to cross-compilation with NO changes.
>None. Zero.  This includes defining words and CODE words.
>I can also directly fiddle areas in the compiled image with @
>and ! .

Thank you, Brad.  We call the attempt to produce a cross compiler
that takes unmodified Forth source code 'code transparency',
because we feel that a cross compiler has to be part of the 
interactive development cycle that is intrinsic to Forth, and thus
cross compiler operation is usually immediately followed by the
normal Forth test cycle.

It has to be said that the objective of code transparency leads to
design decisions within the cross compiler that are quite different
to those seen in cross compilers that do not pursue this objective.
In practice, we rarely worry about the pathological cases beloved
by some, as those Forth programmers who delight in these things
usually understand, and are capable of, the workarounds. The people
who need transparency are the novice users. The majority of our
cross compilers are used by people who have not used Forth
before.

Stephen Pelc

EuroForth conference - October 23-25, Southampton, UK.
tel: +44 703 631441  fax: +44 703 339691
From: ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: What should the Standard include?
Date: 28 Sep 92 11:33:51 GMT
Organization: EIEI-U

Category 10,  Topic 30
Message 250       Sun Sep 27, 1992
B.RODRIGUEZ2 [Brad]          at 09:04 EDT
 
Thanks, Ray, for your comprehensive and lucid response.  However, my
understanding is that "target compiler" is a Forth Inc. trademark; can we then
speak of "target compiling" without treading on their toes?

> ...quibbling over terminology seems a little silly to me.

I disagree!  Without agreed terminology, there can be no meaningful
communication.  This is, after all, the function of language. Witness the
recent discussion of JForth's CLONE, which is a target compiler but not a
cross compiler (in your terms).

"Definitions give you the inestimable benefit of knowing what you're talking
about."  - Nathaniel Branden

Brad Rodriguez
 B.RODRIGUEZ2 on GEnie   |   bradford@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca
 So many projects....so little time.

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From: John_Somerville@mindlink.bc.ca (John Somerville)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: looking for forth texts
Date: 28 Sep 92 02:02:21 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world

I think that "Thinking Forth" is excellent, but it should be read following
"Starting Forth", or perhaps read concurrently.

regards john
--
john somerville B.C. Hydro
affiliations FIG Forth Interest Group
From: ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: What should the Standard include?
Date: 3 Oct 92 13:30:51 GMT
Organization: EIEI-U

Category 10,  Topic 30
Message 253       Sat Oct 03, 1992
B.RODRIGUEZ2 [Brad]          at 09:18 EDT
 
To Bernd Paysan: my understanding is that "FORTH" -- in all caps -- is a
trademark of Forth, Inc., but that "Forth" is not.  I think I've been
mistyping the name of the company, too...it should be typed FORTH, Inc. (all
caps again).

I recall that i.e., in 1981 or thereabouts TRW changed their logo to something
artistic, because the simple letters "TRW" couldn't be trademarked in Europe. 
So maybe "FORTH" and "Target Compiler" are only sacred in the U.S.

Brad Rodriguez
 B.RODRIGUEZ2 on GEnie   |   bradford@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca
 So many projects....so little time.

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From: ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Floating Point
Date: 2 Oct 92 12:15:10 GMT
Organization: EIEI-U

Category 10,  Topic 8
Message 87        Fri Oct 02, 1992
E.RATHER [Elizabeth]         at 01:38 EDT
 
Regarding the discussion of Locals and the existance of a separate floating
point stack... please don't forget that the major use of a separate FP stack
is to take advantage of the really significant speed advantage of the
*hardware* floating stacks in, for example, the 80x87 NDPs, not just to "get
FPs out of the way."  I don't want to dive in for or against Locals, but they
aren't part of that particular debate as far as ANS Forth is concerned.
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From: dwp+@cs.cmu.edu (Doug Philips)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: FORTHNET
Summary: something salient, shortly stated, sadly seldom satoric
Date: 6 Oct 92 15:55:16 GMT
Article-I.D.: cs.BvpIwB.HsK.1
Organization: EIEI-U

In article <718339879.0@mailbox.bison.mb>,
	Jason.Goga@mailbox.bison.mb.ca (Jason Goga) writes:
+I'm in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada and am getting forthnet via a UUCP gateway
+into the fido net I'm in. I would like to get it directly. Is this possible?
+If so could somebody please tell me how.

There are many ways, since ForthNet is a virtual network, any of its legs
are as validly "ForthNet" as any other.  You could subscribe to GEnie and
read ForthNet there in FIG's RoundTable, or you could get on the FIGI-L
BITNET mailing list, or you could get a news feed of comp.lang.forth, or
get onto a RIME BBS that carries ForthNet or ...

The FAQ messages have info on most of those options, but I'm in the middle
of rewriting them, so they weren't posted on the 1st.  If you would like
a copy of the FAQ messages, send mail to dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us.

-Doug
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
From: anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Martin Ertl)
Subject: Re: An Open ANSI Forth Implementation
Organization: Institut fuer Computersprachen, Technische Universitaet Wien
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 15:44:32 GMT

In article <4093.UUL1.3#5129@willett.pgh.pa.us>, ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie) writes:
|> Category 10,  Topic 41
|> Message 92        Fri Oct 02, 1992
|> E.RATHER [Elizabeth]         at 01:49 EDT
|>  
|> Anton Ertl writes... >Well, I have implemented most of the primitives of BASIS
|> 15....
|> 
|> AARRRGGGHHH!!! Almost two calendar years and probably that many person-years
|> of work beyond BASIS15.  And this is being billed as a quality effort? Watch
|> out...there are some significant differences between BASIS15 and dpANS3.

And there will be differences between dpANS2 (the latest version when
I implemented the primitives) and ANSI Forth. So I need a checking
pass anyway. Since checking everything is much more work than
changing a few primitives, the version I start with makes little
difference.

BTW, could you summarize the changes between dpANS2 and dpANS3.

- anton
-- 
M. Anton Ertl                    Some things have to be seen to be believed
anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at Most things have to be believed to be seen
From: ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: An Open ANSI Forth Implementation
Date: 2 Oct 92 12:15:12 GMT
Organization: EIEI-U

Category 10,  Topic 41
Message 92        Fri Oct 02, 1992
E.RATHER [Elizabeth]         at 01:49 EDT
 
Anton Ertl writes... >Well, I have implemented most of the primitives of BASIS
15....

AARRRGGGHHH!!! Almost two calendar years and probably that many person-years
of work beyond BASIS15.  And this is being billed as a quality effort? Watch
out...there are some significant differences between BASIS15 and dpANS3.
-----
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Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
From: GELSON@BRFAPESP.BITNET (GELSON GOMES)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Mastering INTERNET TOOLS
Date: 26 Sep 92 14:28:50 GMT
Reply-To: FIGI-L%BRUSPVM.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU
Distribution: world
Organization: The Internet
X-Unparsable-Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1992 04:19:00 BSC


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From: dwp@willett.pgh.pa.us (Doug Philips)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: Floating Point
Date: 5 Oct 92 17:22:02 GMT
Organization: EIEI-U

In article <1992Oct3.214008.26591@csi.uottawa.ca>
	cbbrowne@csi.uottawa.ca (Christopher Browne) writes:
+I've always found it interesting when people start to "freak out" when
+others suggest the use of "Yet Another Stack."  I personally think
+that it's probably a useful thing to at least CONSIDER the potential
+addition of additional stacks.

+It's been very useful to have two stacks, primarily intended to store
+return addresses and function parameters, respectively.

+The stacks have since been used (abused?) to store a whole variety of
+other sorts of information; from loop counters/looping addresses to
+some (occasionally weird) varieties of local variables.

+This made a lot of sense to me; many of the stack contortions of which
+Forth programs become guilty come as a result of trying to use the two
+"standard" stacks to do things other than the straightforward
+Return/Parameter passing for which they are PRIMARILY intended.

Bravo!  (and Bravo! to all the other heretics that dare suggest 2 is a lower
bound and not an upper bound, for the number of stacks).  It seems to me
that one of Charles Moore's best insights was that having parameters/locals
and return information on the same stack caused a lot of stack contortions.
As I see it then, the question becomes:
    Does the same kind of separation into "other stacks" for "other things"
    yield enough benefit to make it worth while?

I think the answer to that question is _not_ automatically "NO".

One problem with having N stacks is that you then need N wordsets, one each
for manipulating each of the N stacks, or you need a generic set of words
that can operate on "the current/default" stack, plus words to allow
selection of/movement to/conversion from one stack to another.  That is the
general case.  Consider the specific instances of control-flow and local
variables.  Loops, cases/cascades, etc. already have their own very limited
wordsets (not necessarily a separate "vocabulary) for what they do.  Perhaps
I am missing something obvious, but having a RETURN/CASE/CONTROLFLOW stack
does not seem to me to require any NEW words to be added to Forth.  We
already have I J K  DO LOOP   umpty-variants of CASE ... ENDCASE etc.

-Doug
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