HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson)
Subject: Re: Q: 'Illustrated Encyc. of Middle Earth' available?
Originator: alderson@leland.Stanford.EDU
Reply-To: alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson)
Organization: Cisco Systems (MIS)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 93 01:51:48 GMT

In article <1hsj0nINNiib@access.usask.ca>, friesend@jester (Darryl Friesen) writes:
>Len Charest (charest@Aig.Jpl.Nasa.Gov) wrote:
>> While shopping in Boston last week I came across a large coffee table type
>> book whose title was *something like* 'The Illustrated Encyclopedia of
>> Middle Earth'.

<remainder deleted>

>It's called "Tolkien: The Illustrated Encyclopaedia" (nope, that's not
>a typo; the 'ae' are joined (I forget what that's called)) by David Day.
>
>From the inside cover:
>
>Collier Books
>Macmillan Publishing Company
>866 Third Avenue
>New York, NY 10022
>
>ISBN:  0-02-031275-X
>
>I don't think its out of print yet (it's a 1992 first edition).

It's a re-working of his (late 70's) _A Tolkien Bestiary_, adding the
information from writings later than _The Silmarillion_.

Interesting, if mostly because it sometimes puts into a single entry things
which are scattered throughout the texts.  In other ways, it's irritating--
pointy-eared Hildebrant-style elves and the like.

Too bad it's in expensive hardcover.
-- 
Rich Alderson   'I wish life was not so short,' he thought.  'Languages take
                such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about.'
                                                        --J. R. R. Tolkien,
alderson@leland.stanford.edu                              _The Lost Road_
From: pxs@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Perdita Stevens)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: An Apology (was Re: Eowyn)
Date: 23 Dec 92 21:54:09 GMT
Reply-To: pxs@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Perdita Stevens)
Organization: Laboratory for the Foundations of Computer Science, Edinburgh U

Many people in this thread have interpreted Eowyn's decision to be a
shield-maiden no longer as an acceptance of the feminine role that she
had originally, and unwillingly, occupied in Rohan. I think that a
better interpretation may be as follows (I admit here that there is
very little textual evidence for or against this view, but for what
it's worth...):

Eowyn grows up in a society that has rigid ("stereotypical") ideas
about the appropriate roles for men and for women. She does not want
to accept the standard female role; she does not feel that she is
suited to be a "dry-nurse". 

(As an aside, we may here observe that Eowyn's brother Eomer does not
seem entirely happy with the stereotypical "hard" male role, either;
this is shown by the fact that, rather than take Aragorn, Legolas and
Gimli to the king, he lends them horses. Nature or nurture?)

Eowyn takes the only available alternative; she adopts the standard
*male* role. Only later, after talking with Faramir, does she find
herself in a situation where there is another possibility; she can be
a non-subservient woman! Remember Faramir's considerate treatment of
Frodo and Sam in Ithilien. Faramir as the original New Man, anyone?

Perdita Stevens
From: det@phlan.sw.stratus.com (David Toland)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Melkor: Genetic Engineer? (was: Origin of Orcs) and other
Date: 23 Dec 1992 16:09:23 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Software Engineering
NNTP-Posting-Host: phlan.sw.stratus.com

In article <BzpwuI.25I@max.physics.sunysb.edu> jlauret@sbchem.sunysb.edu (Jerome LAURET) writes:
>Does anybody remember about female dwarves in both Sil or LOTR?? The
>history of the dwarves began with 7 dwarves fathers!?? Does someone have
>any idea about it ...

I remember seeing somewhere (possibly the appendices at the end of The
Return of the King?) that to most non-dwarves, female dwarves are
indistinguishable from male dwarves.  Add that to the fact that they
are such a secretive race, then who knows what dwarves were male and which
were female?



-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
All opinions are MINE MINE MINE, and not necessarily anyone else's.
det@phlan.sw.stratus.com   |  "Laddie, you'll be needin' something to wash
                           |  that doon with."
From: det@bigbootay.sw.stratus.com (David Toland)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Ent Nature (Was Orcs in the Last Alliance)
Date: 31 Dec 1992 18:35:12 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Software Engineering
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigbootay.sw.stratus.com
Keywords: Ents, trees

In article <lewchuk.725788102@therien> lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk) writes:
[
Strange.  In LoTR, Fangorn specifically states that Huorns are becoming
Entish and Ents are becoming Huornish all the time: that sentient Ents were
losing their sentience and subsentient Huorns were becoming more sentient.
Furthermore, there seems to be no distinction between "Ent", "Huorn" and
"tree", other than Ents are sentient, Huorns are subsentient, and trees
are non-sentient (and immobile).  Perhaps there is a distinction between
Ent and Tree that is not present in LoTR, but there seems to be none between
Huorn and Ent.

Tolkien himself describes Ents as, well, tree-people.  They had tree-limbs and
tree-leaves and stuff like that.  Dwarves are, of course, not rock-people.
They didn't have rock-skin or rock-hair or such.  But Ents had tree features
and looked like trees when they were still.  I know they weren't "tree" trees
in that they had "legs" and "arms" but in all other respects they were,
essentially, of tree biology just as we humans are of the same basic biology
as monkeys in particular and land mammals in general.
]
I always had the impression that the Ents looked very tree-like, and could
even be mistaken for trees in a quick look.  Consider when Merry and Pippin
first climb Fangorn's hill.  Tolkien describes a stump that looks rather
manlike.  I had the impression that that was Fangorn himself, standing
very still, unnoticed until he speaks to them.

Also Fangorn talks about the trees and the Ents, and how they become more
alike.  This seemed to have more to do with consciousness rather than
physical appearance.

Also, about orcs vs. elves and trolls vs. ents:  I haven't read much of
the Silmarillion, but Fangorn spoke of trolls being made "in mockery
of ents, as orcs were of elves."  This says to me that orcs are *not*
ruined elves, but some other creature twisted to a dark caricature
of elvenkind.

-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
All opinions are MINE MINE MINE, and not necessarily anyone else's.
det@phlan.sw.stratus.com   |  "Laddie, you'll be needin' something to wash
                           |  that doon with."
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: emma@Csli.Stanford.EDU (Emma Pease)
Subject: Re: Bombadil etc.
Organization: Stanford University CSLI
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 21:23:25 GMT

In <lewchuk.725828185@therien> lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk) writes:


>But it was debated, and the words used were "no, I think not".  The full
>extent of Bombadil's power was known about as much as the full extent of
>Gandalf the White's power and Elrond's power (and Galadriel's Power).  None
>of these people revealed the full potential of their power if they could
>help it.  Gandalf the Grey was "equal" to a Balrog, but Gandalf the White
>never had his limits tested.  Elrond only showed his power as a master of
>lore and had the ability to flood the river to protect Imladris.  Since
>Bombadil was quite a hermit and rarely dealt with evil influences I suspect
>there was more to his power than even the Council of Elrond knew of.

I should point out that Bombadil himself states that his power has
limits.  He admits to the hobbits that he isn't sure of what the
weather will do nor whether or not they will be pursued by the black
riders in the near future.  Paraphrasing he says he is no master of
the black riders from far beyond his land.

My own leaning is that he is a Maiar (and probably not among the most
powerful) who wandered into Middle Earth very early on and still
remains.  Like Melian of Doriath he could fence his land against most
evils but has little power beyond his borders.  The ring has no power
over him because there is nothing with which the ring can tempt him (a
bit like a man [the ring] shooting at a rock [Tom] and not damaging
the rock because he missed the rock not because the rock is bullet proof).

Emma
From: cwilson@gssec.bt.co.uk (Colin Wilson)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Dwarves want women (was Re: Melkor: Genetic Engineer?)
Date: 24 Dec 92 16:09:25 GMT
Organization: BT

In article <1hb1joINN6sj@mirror.digex.com>, dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) writes:

|> (Speaking of which, ever notice the strange colors of the dwarves'
|> beards in the Hobbit?  Everything from blue to red to green, etc.
|> Any thoughts on this?  Or is this a remnant of the more childish
|> portions of the Hobbit?)

If you read chapter 1, "An Unexpected Party", again you'll find that it wasn't
the dwarves' beards that had the various colours, but their HOODS.

********************************************************************************
*  Colin Wilson,                           E-mail:  cwilson@gssec.bt.co.uk     *
*  Glasgow Engineering Centre,             POTS:    (041) 220 5340             *
*  British Telecommunications plc.                  (+ 44 41) 220 5340         *
*  24 Highburgh Road,                                                          *
*  Glesca / Glaschu G12 8ND,             Scotland a Twa-Leidit Fowkrick        *
*  Scotland / Alba.                      Biodh Alba 'na Poblachd Dha-Chananach *  ********************************************************************************
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: bergland@edb.uib.no (Magne Bergland)
Subject: Foundation of Danish Tolkien Society
Organization: University of Bergen
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 08:36:43 GMT

I have noted that a few danes are reading this newsgroup, so I pass on this 
piece of news:

The Tolkien Society of Denmark will be founded in a meeting in Copenhagen on 
Sunday 3 January 1993, Tolkien's 101st birthday. The society will aim to 
further the interest in Tolkien and the exploration of his world in Denmark. 
A magazine is in preparation.

The day after the meeting, the members will visit the offices of Danmarks 
Radio (The Danish Broadcasting Corporation) to re-hear some radio programs 
related to Tolkien.

The meeting will take place in Skaffervej 8, 2400 Koebenhavn NV. Further 
information about the meeting and the society should be available from Inge 
Soebaek Lie-Olesen on phone 31 81 68 44 (during business hours).


 - Magne

Magne Bergland                             Bergland@edb.uib.no
Computing Centre, University of Bergen     TEL: +47 5 54 42 15
Edb-senteret, HiB, 5020 Bergen, Norway     FAX: +47 5 54 42 99
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: forb0004@student.tc.umn.edu (Eric Forbis )
Subject: Re: Tolkien a Racist?
Organization: University of Minnesota
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 03:42:14 GMT

In article <BzA78A.Duw@comp.vuw.ac.nz> Michael.Norrish@comp.vuw.ac.nz (Michael Norrish) writes:
>Carl> In article <Bz4v2s.80K@comp.vuw.ac.nz>,
>Carl> Michael.Norrish@comp.vuw.ac.nz (Michael Norrish) wrote:
>
>> Leaving that to the side, there is still the issue of Tolkien's
>> ranking of his human races. Clearly the Elves are at the top of the
>> heap. The closer it is to the Valar, the better or more superior the
>> race. However, as James has pointed out, those races closer to the
>> divine are characterised as 'blond, blue-eyed' wonders, while the
>> unfortunate Easterlings and Southrons are dark and swarthy. In all
>> honesty, I think we have in these chacracterisations some evidence
>> of an underlying racism in Tolkien's worldview.
>> 
>
>Carl> <Insert favorite Anglo-Saxon epithet here>!!! Tolkien's entire
>Carl> mythology is based on a dichotomy of light and dark, and the
>Carl> gradations in between. Tolkien's races have the same gradation
>Carl> because of this fundamental division; the division does not
>Carl> exist because of Tolkien's view of the races. 
>
>So does this mean that you think Tolkien deliberately made his evil
>races dark-skinned? That's far worse than any fault I was accusing
>him of. 
>
>To my mind, Tolkien's faux pas in our eyes is merely the result of an
>underlying, rather 'genteel' racism, (a previous poster used this
>phrase; thank you) not anything more. You on the other hand, seem to
>be saying that Tolkien had to make his races dark if they were also to
>be evil. Yuck! I certainly wouldn't want to believe *that* of him.
>
>Michael.

I would even question whether the attribution of good/evil to light/dark is 
a question of racism. The link between evil and black (darkness) is ancient 
and worldwide, for obvious reasons, and is found in cultures where 
differences in skin color is minimal or nonexistent. 
---------

Eric Forbis      forb0004@student.tc.umn.edu
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: jhelling@cs.ruu.nl (Jeroen Hellingman)
Subject: Re: Dutch Translation of LOTR names
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 11:30:43 GMT
Organization: Utrecht University, Dept. of Computer Science

Many names in the Dutch version have been translated -- in fact all English
sounding names have become Dutch sounding names. This has been done by the
translator in coordination with Tolkien. I think it is a good thing that the
names are translated, since this transfer more of the feeling of the original
to the Dutch. It would have been a bit alienising if we had to read English
names.

Some names:

The Shire    De Gouw
Bilbo Balings Bilbo Baggins.
Merijn        Merry
Pepijn        Pippin
Rivendel      Rivendell (change in spelling)
Boombaard     Treebeard
Boer van der Made  Farmer Maggot
Toek          Took (change in spelling)

etc. I don't know the English names as good as the Dutch names, since I have
read LotR several times in Dutch and only once in English.

In the biography, it is said that for the Polish edition, Tolkien provided the
'original' Westron. Can somebody post them?

P.S. if somebody has time it would be nice to have a full list of translations
from Dutch to English and vice versa.

Jeroen

-- 
Jeroen Hellingman                 E-mail: <jhelling@cs.ruu.nl>
't Zand 2                         Phone: +31-3473-73935 (home)
4133 TB Vianen                    (18.00--21.00 GMT)
The Netherlands                   Answer in English, German, or Dutch.
From: mozart@coos.dartmouth.edu (Sting)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Elven Anatomy
Date: 1 Jan 93 06:45:11 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH

In <92366.102452IO10407@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> ROB <IO10407@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> writes:

>  This past weekend a friend and I had an argument over whether or not
>Tolkien's Eldar had pointed ears or not


I have noticed that in Tolkien's glossary of the elven language (which occurs
in the Silmarillion, as well as various further works by other authors), the
words for "ear" and "leaf" are closely related in Elven, which would suggest
that they probably had something of a leaf-shaped ear.

-Sting

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael J. Fromberger                                  Dartmouth College
Composer, Guitarist, Mediaevalist                            Hanover, NH
email : Sting@Dartmouth.EDU / mozart@coos.dartmouth.edu
USPS  : #3B School St. / Hanover, NH  03755
 all requests granted - all grants requested!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: wgkramer@cs.vu.nl (Ewout Kramer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Dutch Translation of LOTR names
Date: 22 Dec 92 15:07:15 GMT
Organization: Fac. Wiskunde & Informatica, VU, Amsterdam

While reading the Dutch version of LOTR, I noticed that many names
have been changed to some Dutch equivalent in such a way that I can't
"de-translate" them to the originals. e.g. 'Bilbo Baggins' is translated
by 'Bilbo Baling'. Does anyone know WHY this was done ? Maybe someone has
a list of Dutch<->English names in the LOTR ??


Thanks,


Ewout
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: jclarke@teal.csn.org (J Christopher Clarke)
Subject: Re: The movie...Would anyone do it anyway?
Organization: Colorado SuperNet, Inc.
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 05:59:27 GMT

      I am wondering would anyone do LOtR anyway?  Ron Howard's "Willow"
was summerially panned by all "knowledgeable" reviewers, and was a flop
at the screen.  It was too fanciful for adults and too violent for kids.
My question is with this stunning success, why would anyone spend the 
60M+ dollars to produce a 3-hour movie that no one (except us, of course)
would go see?
      I would also be interested in what the net thought of "Willow".
I always liked the movie.

J. Christopher Clarke
jclarke@taf.atmos.colostate.edu
From: roland@sics.se (Roland Karlsson)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Music based on the ring
Date: 3 Jan 93 14:25:51 GMT
Distribution: alt
Organization: Swedish Institute of Computer Science, Kista


There is a very good instrumental record based on the tale of the
ring.  It is called "Sagan om Ringen" (Swedish for "Tale of The Ring")
and is written by Bo Hansson.  Bo and som other is performing.  The
record is released by Silence Records and has the number SRS 4600.
Maybe hard to get for you foreigners, but it is good.

--
Roland Karlsson             SICS, PO Box 1263, S-164 28 KISTA, SWEDEN
Internet: roland@sics.se    Tel: +46 8 752 15 40          Fax: +46 8 751 72 30
Telex: 812 6154 7011 SICS   Ttx: 2401-812 6154 7011=SICS
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: The movie...
Date: 21 Dec 1992 14:52:29 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In article <1992Dec17.032025.15765@selway.umt.edu> sh666@selway.umt.edu (Dave) writes:
>Who would you like to see direct a LoTR movie?


Kenneth Brannagh.
Terry Gilliam.

>
From: mvoorhis@granite.WPI.EDU (Michael C Voorhis)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Gandalf as Olorin (was Re: Bombadil etc.)
Date: 31 Dec 92 17:47:35
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute, Worcester, MA 01609-2280
	<TJG01.92Dec31093404@thdhub.HomeDepot.COM>
	<1hvqb9INNg55@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: granite.wpi.edu
In-reply-to: bafta@ucscb.UCSC.EDU's message of 31 Dec 1992 21:56:57 GMT

In article <1hvqb9INNg55@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> bafta@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (dragon-monster) writes:
>    I seem to recall that Saruman is identified with an Elvish named Maia
>    but as I am at work I cannot possibly recall where.  In the Silmarillion
>    appendix, mayhap, or possibly the LoTR appendix.

The Unfinished Tales name Saruman as the Maia Curumo.  It is in the section
of that book called `the Istari'.  I'm not immediately aware of any
references to this name in LoTR.  The elves called him Curunir.

	Mike.
	(mvoorhis@wpi.wpi.edu)
From: bafta@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (dragon-monster)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Gandalf as Olorin (was Re: Bombadil etc.)
Date: 31 Dec 1992 21:56:57 GMT
Organization: University of California - Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: ucscb.ucsc.edu


In article <TJG01.92Dec31093404@thdhub.HomeDepot.COM> tjg01@thdhub.HomeDepot.COM
(Terry Gardner) writes:

>Are you in fact convinced that the Olorin (Maia) and Gandalf were
>one and the same? I'm not. True, it would be convincing in some ways,
>but what about the other Istari? Why would Saruman be chosen as head
>of the White Council, and not mentioned otherwise? I admit that I
>go back and forth on the issue of whether Gandalf-Mithrandir was
>the Olorin, but today, I don't think so.

The quote "Olorin was I in the West when I was young" in _the Two Towers_
seems pretty convincing to me.

I seem to recall that Saruman is identified with an Elvish named Maia
but as I am at work I cannot possibly recall where.  In the Silmarillion
appendix, mayhap, or possibly the LoTR appendix.


-- 
 the one, the only, the big n growly  |  If one blows fire against the wind,
 Dragon Monster!  Rawr! Rawr! Rawr!   |   one must take care not to get the
========>bafta@ucscb.ucsc.edu<========|         smoke in one's eyes.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson)
Subject: Re: Redemption in LOTR
Originator: alderson@leland.Stanford.EDU
Reply-To: alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson)
Organization: Cisco Systems (MIS)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 93 01:52:03 GMT

In article <1992Dec31.055957.879@netcom.com>, solovay@netcom (Andrew Solovay) writes:
>In article <1992Dec31.003012.3254@netlabs.com> lwall@netlabs.com (Larry Wall) writes:
>>
>>What a lot of folks are missing is that redemption in the strict sense
>>*has* to have a redeemer.  Anyone familiar with either Catholic or
>>Protestant theology should be able to figure out the rest of the
>>puzzle.  Christian doctrine is Redeemer-centric. Thus, the LoTR is
>>mostly about *distributed* redemption, the one suffering for the many.
>>Frodo makes his sacrifice, even "dies young" symbolically, so that Sam
>>and all the Shire can go on living in their pastoral utopia.  Bilbo
>>trades his share of the wealth to bring peace between dwarves and men.
>>Aragorn does his delayed gratification shtick for the long-term benefit
>>of all.  Faramir sacrifices his relationship with his father to help
>>two hobbits, and later very nearly sacrifices himself to get his men
>>back to relative safety.  And, of course, Gandalf's sacrificial words:
>>"Fly, you fools".  Note the plural.
>
>I think the best example of redemption, by this definition, is
>from the first age: Earendil's voyage to Valinor. In fact, this
>is as close to a Christ figure as we can find. He intercedes
>between God (well, gods, i.e. Valar) and Man (well, Men and Elves).
>He thus redeems the whole of Middle-Earth, which is in Satan's
>(er, Morgoth's) power. He has to pay a heavy price: He is
>separated from all his family and cannot dwell in Valinor or
>Middle-Earth; instead he has to sail in the sky until the end.

Well, the Earendel poem, of which CRT has written a good bit, is a Christ-poem.
My understanding--flawed, I'm sure--has been that the OE poem is supposed to be
one of the Christianized echoes of the Elder Days (the way _Beowulf_ was
Christianized), and that in the work on Middle Earth, JRRT was "discovering"
the earlier roots of the poem.
-- 
Rich Alderson   'I wish life was not so short,' he thought.  'Languages take
                such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about.'
                                                        --J. R. R. Tolkien,
alderson@leland.stanford.edu                              _The Lost Road_
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: seurer@rchland.vnet.ibm.com (Bill Seurer)
Subject: Re: Eowyn
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 15:53:24 GMT
Reply-To: BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Rochester

In article <1h4ligINN9qm@mirror.digex.com>, dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) writes:
|> Also, we have no direct evidence whether Eomer continues warring or
|> not.

I beleive that at the end of The Return of the King (or in its appendices)
it says something about the friendship of Aragorn and Eomer continuing and
ever after the standards of the two were seen on the battlefield together.
Someone have a copy handy who can quote this part?
-- 

- Bill Seurer     Language and Compiler Development      IBM Rochester, MN
  Internet: BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com    America On-Line: BillSeurer@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien