From: pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Good News from U.S. + some analysis
Date: 27 Jan 93 05:41:03 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

blazic@ecf.toronto.edu (BLAZIC Joseph R) writes:

PREVIOUS DISCUSSION:
===================================================
>>>What explicitly is not "good logic"?

>>Ana (now): The following is not "good logic": 

>> "If the world throws Bosnia to the wolves, one has
>>to wonder if or why should Croats in parts of B-H be more 'principled'
>>than anyone else in the world (including the UN, who has effectively helped
>>the Serbian side by maintaining the effective heavy arms embargo)."

>>because it is the same argument that  Karadzic/Milosevic/Sheshelj
>>are using in the following form:

>>"If the world thew Yugoslavia (to the wolves), one has to wonder if
>>or why should Serbs in parts of Croatia/BiH/(other) be more 'principled'
>>than anyone else in the world (including the UN, who has effectively
>>helped the separatist (Slovenian/Croatian/Moslem) side by recognizing
>>their rights but not recognizing our rights and furthermore placing
>>and maintaining the economic embargo only on Serbia/Monte-Negro"
>>
>>This is NOT a good logic.
================================

CURRENT DISCUSSION:

Joe:
>Now that is twisted logic: what an equation.  Seccession and genocide
>(against non-Serbs almost universally in Croatia and now B-H) are
>not comparable.

Ana:
I have equated the LOGIC behind the actual deeds - not the deeds
themselves! The logic is the same - the outcomes different. 

Joe:
>This is akin to saying: stealing and killing are both crimes.  Which
>is worse: walking into a McDonalds and spraying machine-gun fire at
>all adult customers, or going up to a baby-carriage and stealing candy
>from a baby (you might even say this is worse - a baby!).

Ana:
Well if you see the analogy between stealing and killing and Croatian
secession and Serbian outrageous response to it, then, by the way of
the same logic, the Croatian government as thieves were pretty stupid
to go and steal from such a lunatic (Serbian forces). [I couldn't
resist this remark, but please do not get personally offended since
I myself don't see the analogy quite like that.]  As for the lunatic
in McDonnald's and stealing a candy from a baby, I can only respond like this:
First a guy goes up to a baby-carriage and snatches a lolly-pop from out
of the baby's hands, then this "baby" pulls it's machine-gun and starts
spraying fire all arround. A pretty nasty picture. [Sorry again, I don't
know what happened to me, I must be going crazy].

Joe:
>I'm not drawing any direct analogies between the above and what is happening
>on the ground in ex-YU, I'm saying that your type of argument is silly.


>>Ana (before):
>>>>extremists as you are against the Serbian extremists! Do not change your
>>>>arguments and standards just because it is the "Croatian" extremists who
>>>>are doing to Bosnia the same what the "Serbian" extremists are! Maybe
>>>>even worse: like hyenas, they have waited for the "Serb" extremists to
>>>>kill the prey on their own, only to partake in carving up the carcass!!

Joe:
>Thanks for your elaboration on 'extreme nationalism.'  I think it is 
>safe to say that extreme *anything* is not a good thing (as the word
>'extreme' implies...).

Ana:
Somehow, I don't see the connection between the quoted paragraph and
your remark....

Anyway:
Sorry, Joe. I have just demonstrated some extremism (above). To go back
to my sober self: I really think that nations cannot be compared to
individuals even metaphorically. It is one thing when we have two
(or three) individuals to understand how the conflicts begin, develop
and are solved. It is one thing to BLAME an individual for a certain
action or crime - and even then in a civilized world such a criminal
gets a "fair trial".

It is another thing to blame nations for the actions of some individuals
who claim that what they are doing and make some others do is "in the
name of the nation". Nations are NOT homogenuous entities, and their
members CANNOT be characterized with "national traits" - since there are
so many different individuals in every nation: different in every
possible way. Furthermore, the policies of a country (national or
international) are really in the hands of a VERY SMALL NUMBER of
individuals, and the majority of people don't have almost any
direct influence. And especially in war situations and in
countries without any democracy. (Like former Yugoslavia and today's
Croatia, BiH and "rump Yugoslavia"). Even in the USA, the decisions
are made on day-to-day's basis without consulting the population.
I am sure that nobody in their right mind in Yugoslavia didn't wish
for this war, and that the MAJORITY of people wouldn't fight under
any circumstances if somebody really asked them. The real tragedy
was and is that the EXTREMELY dangerous individuals have taken
the power in their hands and/or have given a green light to proven
criminals and their bands (on ALL sides), letting them on civilians
to "provoke" or "prove" or "defend" or "liberate" or "bring order"
or "put under control" or "show them" etc. Every "little" decision
was the worst possible decission, all together leading to the 
escallation of killing, looting, raping, "ethnic cleansing" etc, 

And yet, I cannot characterize the peoples of Yugoslavia as "killer
nations". Not even Serbs, since regardless of the scope and the horror
of what has been done in the name of Serbs, there are MILLIONS of
Serbs who are against this war and against the present policies and
politics in Serbia/Monte-Negro. (Just as I can't characterize Croats
as a "genocidal nation" for what has been done in the WWII, or Italians
and Germans as inherently fascists or Nazis). Just as I am sure there are
millions of Croatians and Muslims who don't agree with the policies and
decisions of their governments.


>Regards,

>Joe Blazic


Regards

Ana M. Shane
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia