From: roby@chopin.udel.edu (Scott W Roby)
Subject: Re: Thanks for life
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 22:34:33 GMT

In article <1ddfoeINNg5t@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de> frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank O'Dwyer) writes:
>In article <Bx9CoI.4tt@news.udel.edu> roby@chopin.udel.edu (Scott W Roby) writes:
>>In article <1d84kvINNaet@horus.ap.mchp.sni.de> frank@D012S658.uucp (Frank O'Dwyer) writes:

>>However, if my mother and family had decided that abortion was the 
>>way to go and if that choice would have made them healthier and 
>>more prosperous, then I would have no objection, even from my current  
>>perspective.  (I really am sincere about that.  Sure, I'd object to 

>I tend to believe you - recently I read that a caller to an Irish radio talk

Thanks.  I knew it was one of those statements that someone might assume 
I said without thinking about it -- thus the extra comments.

>show expressed similar sentiments - her mother had died in childbirth, and
>she had a lot of guilt about it.  Post-birth trauma?

Hope they got some help.

>>My mother chose not to work while us young 'uns were still young.  She 

>I question that in general women 'choose' to do this.  My wife would very

Well, she worked before and after we were young.  And she chose to have 
the first two kids (planned), knowing she would stop working while we 
were young, so it seems like choice to me.  My unplanned occurance 
2 years after by brother's birth, simply extended this period by two years.
Of course, I am not referring to women in general.

>much like to go out and work, and I'm all for whatever she wants to do.
>However, after child-minders and other expenses arising get paid it just
>isn't worth the extra effort it entails for us.  On-the-job creches are
>vanishingly rare in Ireland - and of course the problem is exacerbated (sp?)
>by high unemployment.  Once we had the opportunity to 'switch roles' but even
>that would have entailed financial hardship, so we didn't - and I'm not
>unattracted to the idea.

Yes, sometimes finances make choices for us.  That is why the suggestion 
that many couples use abortion instead of a condom, etc. for primary birth 
control seems so idiotic to me.  It is financially inscrutable.

>>She was a teacher, which at the time, 
>>was probably one of the better paying jobs for women, although I am 
>>sure it was still disproportionate compared to men.  Women still don't 
>>get equal pay due to the persistance of the antiquated idea of the 
>>father being the family bread-winner.  What was your point?

>Well, if you've got a family with both parents qualified to be teachers,
>but a woman gets paid less, who stays home?

No surprise.  Mom stayed home.  Maybe things will change in the future.

>The reasons for the lack of equal pay are possibly quite subtle - I reckon
>that they now change the names of jobs so that they are no longer the 'same',

That is simply empty rationalization of or a deliberate attempt to disguise 
what is basically discrimination.

>rather than to have to equalise the pay, and also that traditionally
>high-powered jobs often lose their status when women get into them.  And of
>course, lots of women still wind up in the low paying jobs.  Some of this
>may be less relevant in the US, but it happens in my neighborhood.

It still happens here, too.  Equally qualified women get paid (from memory) 
roughly 60-70% of what males get paid.

>>>Force is sometimes overt, sometimes polite and imperceptible.

>>An example of polite and imperceptible force, please.  Peer-pressure?
>>Societal pressure?  Not in my book.  Government pressure?  Nope.

>How about channeling girls into the lower streams of education?  This 
>happens in Ireland, though it is slowly changing.  Far fewer girls study
>advanced math in Ireland than do boys, to take one example.  Why?

A good example of nearly impercptible force.

Happens here, too.  Some of it seems to be almost sub-conscious.  Teachers 
tend to ignore women more than men in grade school.  Some talking Barbie 
dolls say "Gee,  math class is hard!"

My understanding is that women compete well in math until about grade 
4 0r 5 (age 8-9), then they do poorly.   Most researchers seem to think 
that the young women somehow learn that math is "unfeminine".

There was also a sad report in Time magazine that in many urban 
environments, blacks who are successful in school are derided as 
"acting white" by their peers.

There were times in my own schooling, when I purposely down-played my 
own successes for fear of being labled "egghead".

>How about the sexism that says pregnant women have an IQ of 2?  

This is a new one to me.

>[True story:  My wife used to work for a major airline in one of their retail
>outlets.  One day, the shop was empty except for my wife, another (more
>junior, and male) airline employee and one customer.  The male employee is
>serving the customer, and my wife is just waiting for another customer to
>come in.  A catholic priest comes in and waits in line for the _male_
>employee, despite my wife's offering to help him.   Why was that do you
>suppose, except perhaps that she was pregnant at the time?  The story has a
>good ending though - eventually the priest gives up waiting and comes over to
>my wife, who proceeds to charge him every charge there is for changing his
>ticket :-)  ]

Instant Karma. :-)   

Just curious... Does the fact that he was a Catholic priest have any meaning?
In America, I would expect this behavior more from a "good old boy" than 
a cleric.


-- 
Scott W. Roby           *This sentence no verb.*      "No Matter where you go..
Phys.& Astr.Dept.    ///// / /  /  *|*  \  \ \ \\\\\      there you are!"
Univ.of Delaware    ((((( ( (  (  * + *  )  ) ) )))))   -> Buckaroo Banzai
roby@brahms.udel.edu \\\\\ \ \  \  *|*  /  / / /////   *Standard Disclaimer*
Newsgroups: talk.abortion