HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: knguyen@emr1.emr.ca (Kim Nguyen)
Subject: Re: How to do the Art Noir Ad Hominiem
Organization: Energy, Mines, and Resources, Ottawa
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 02:24:17 GMT

In article <BxKEC3.4AJ@cs.uiuc.edu> drk@cs.uiuc.edu (David Kohr) writes:
>In article <1992Nov11.083638.4950@wetware.com> drieux@wetware.com (drieux,
>just drieux) writes:
>>] In article <1992Nov8.212723.25899@emr1.emr.ca> knguyen@emr1.emr.ca (Kim
>>] Nguyen) writes:
>>] > But I tell you that I dream to see Communist Vietnam die.
>>] 
>>] To anyone reading Kim's postings, this admission should serve as a warning
>>] signal regarding the accuracy and completeness of the historical facts
>>] presented and the biases reflected in the conclusions reached.
>>] -- 
>>] Dave Kohr     drk@cs.uiuc.edu
>>
>>I think folks that this is a LOVELY and EXCELLENT piece of classic Art
>>Noir Ad Hominiem!!!!
>>
>>ciao
>>drieux
>
>drieux, in the rush to abuse his/her/its <Shift> key and bombard us with
>yet another drawn-out piece of failed sarcastic drivel, has totally
>overlooked the fact that Kim has openly admitted to an overwhelming
>anti-Communist bias, from which one can quite reasonably infer that Kim's
>postings reflect this bias.  No _ad hominem_ here.
>
>Perhaps drieux should spend more time attempting to comprehend postings
>than sniping at them (with poor marksmanship in this case, I would add).
>
>>ps: would you care to bring any of your decadent western cultural deviancy
>>with you into the PureLand of Communism?
>
>Once again, drieux demonstrates a total disdain for logic: opposition to
>fighting on behalf of one side in a war is not equivalent to endorsement of
>the policies of the other.
>-- 
--------------

Gee ! Again with old rhetoric ! Is that the way of debate ? Pros and cons
must be put on that table. Why do youwant to single out me from the net? 
Netters are not like "lame of Allemagne"to go where it is ordered to go. I 
would accept any correction which I have no way to deny.  If there is somthing 
I am still suspecious, I will fight to the end.

Just put things like this. You only know what was going on US and don't
want who once lived in VN ? Is that hard for you to debate ? or you are
communist who does not like anti-communist one ? Debate with a democratic
attitude.

What are you afraid of ? You told someone to change his attitude, but why
don't you change yourself ? At least, one netter recognizes your attitude.
That attitude won't make one understand broader, but narrower.

If I am biased about onething, why don't you show what it is ? or because 
you have no knowledge about that ?  I did express all my intentions here and 
everybody knows that. I did respect one guy on this group. While
debating with him, I have learned a lot from him. After that I still oppose his
other argument if I don't think it is reasonable. I never think about whether
or not he is biased.

Now. I tell you one secret : with that rhetoric repeated, people would 
believe that you are biased.

Sorry netters !
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
From: Monte Olsen <olsenm@ccmail.orst.edu>
Subject: Re: Effects of US war protestors (was Re: Stockdale....)
X-Xxmessage-Id: <A723E8718A04A70D@reynolde-mac.ads.orst.edu>
X-Xxdate: Mon, 9 Nov 92 18:05:37 GMT
Organization: OSU Extension Service
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d12
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 18:04:03 GMT

In article <BxFALG.4v8@cs.uiuc.edu> David Kohr,
drk@cs.uiuc.edu writes:
>How does "Ngo Dinh Diem" sound to you Monte?


All,
I apologize for making "Ngo" a "Bo."

Monte
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
From: knguyen@emr1.emr.ca (Kim Nguyen)
Subject: Re: Some judgements about Tet Offensive 1968 and one painful memory
Organization: Energy, Mines, and Resources, Ottawa
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 01:24:29 GMT

In article <1992Nov11.181910.12116@ultb.isc.rit.edu> tdn7039@ritvax.isc.rit.edu writes:
>In article <1992Nov11.152904.21466@bnr.ca>, daudo@bcars201.bnr.ca (Dau Do) writes:
>>In article <92Nov10.172442est.47525@neat.cs.toronto.edu>, quoctp@cs.toronto.edu (Quoc Tuan Pham) writes:
>>>aec6699@zeus.tamu.edu (CAMPBELL, ANGELA EVETTE) writes:
>>>
>>>>> 
>>>>>What ever the reason, no one could break the tradition of the Tet. All people
>>>>>in Vietnam, China and East Asia must stop fighting, quarreling; they often
>>>...
>>>>Precident:
>>>
>>>>I'd just like to mention 1789 (within a decade or two), when the Vietnamese
>>>>did the same thing during Tet, this time against the Chinese.
>>>
>>>
>>>>Is it traditional to break the same traditions?
>>>
>>>Angela:
>>>
>>>     Actually, Nguyen Hue started the offensive 9-10 days before Tet.
>>>He vowed to drive the Chinese invaders out of the country in time
>>>to celebrate the new year. However, it turned out much better and
>>>he was able to finish the Chinese a couple of days earlier than
>>>planned!
>>
>>Really ?! I think you make a mistake.  Nguyen Hue started the offensive
>>on the New Year days.  He and his soldiers celebrated the New Years
>>9-10 days before Tet.  .... And He was also planning to take back the land
>>that the chinese took from us.  I think it's Quang Dong that he wanted to
>>take it back.  Too bad :-( , He passed away too early :-(
>
>     Bo*' ca'i te^n  -da^.u ba('p, nha` ngu*o*`i co`n thie^'u mo^.t ti?nh 
>nu*~a,  -do' la` ti?nh  Qua?ng Ta^y.  (fa' ti' kho^ng buo^`n ha').
>
>   Nguyen Hue wanted to take back two provinces  Guangdong and Guangxi(sp)
>which belonged to Vietnam. Yup! too bad he passed away before achieving
>his dream.
>Sorry folks, this discussion has ventured  beyond the subject US-VN war.
>
>
>Please tolerate.
>
-------------

Now we are going to lose Stratley Islands. I am going to cry !
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
From: jturner@splinter.coe.northeastern.edu (Jeffrey Turner)
Subject: Re: Effects of US war protestors (was Re: Stockdale....)
Organization: College of Engineering, Northeastern University
	<92Nov7.165644est.47917@neat.cs.toronto.edu> <XYA=MY#@engin.umich.edu>
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 02:05:28 GMT

In article <XYA=MY#@engin.umich.edu> skaggs@engin.umich.edu (jeffrey r. skaggs) writes:

> The treatment of the G.I.'s that
> returned from Vietnam, by the protesters, is this nation's worst crime.  I
> can not, will not, ever forgive the protesters for their creul, hostile,
> and inhuman treatment of OUR UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.

	The treatment they received from the government and the
establishment media was worse.  And the excuse "They were just
following orders" harkens back to Nuremberg.  Considering the
emotional tenor of the time, do Kent State and the Chicago 7
ring a bell, what would you expect?  Supporters of the war
didn't exactly treat the protestors with kid gloves.

				--Jeff Turner

Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
From: knguyen@emr1.emr.ca (Kim Nguyen)
Subject: Re: Effects of US war protestors (was Re: Stockdale....)
Organization: Energy, Mines, and Resources, Ottawa
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 01:48:13 GMT

In article <JTURNER.92Nov7210821@splinter.coe.northeastern.edu> jturner@splinter.coe.northeastern.edu (Jeffrey Turner) writes:
>In article <XYA=MY#@engin.umich.edu> skaggs@engin.umich.edu (jeffrey r. skaggs) writes:
>
>> The treatment of the G.I.'s that
>> returned from Vietnam, by the protesters, is this nation's worst crime.  I
>> can not, will not, ever forgive the protesters for their creul, hostile,
>> and inhuman treatment of OUR UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.
>
>	The treatment they received from the government and the
>establishment media was worse.  And the excuse "They were just
>following orders" harkens back to Nuremberg.  Considering the
>emotional tenor of the time, do Kent State and the Chicago 7
>ring a bell, what would you expect?  Supporters of the war
>didn't exactly treat the protestors with kid gloves.
>
------------
-You are right with JC but wrong with RR. Under RR, there were no 
countries which fell into communism.

-Gee !This is the first time I hear about that strange correlation. Why could 
you compare Viet Vets with Nazis ? Nazism, Fascism and Communism remind 
peolpe about suppression.
 
-My previous postings showed that few protesters were hooked in 
psychological warfare and betrayed their fellows ? Your feeling now is as
result of that deceit. If few among the public could recognize that they 
should welcome home servicemen with joy because that was what they wanted. 
The matter is on the contrary. The peace movement was selfish; they did
not do it for the sake of their fellows or patriotism, but for themselves. They
were proud to be militant and proud to say NO. Some of them tried to go 
to Soviets and showed their just and militant heart of energetic 
youngsters. They did know that they were playing with fire and the enemy
whose goal and life are to destroy the society peace activists took for
granted.

>
From: devoy@vixvax.mgi.com
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
Subject: Re: Veterans' Day
Date: 12 Nov 92 01:13:33 CDT
Distribution: world
Organization: Management Graphics, Inc.

> 
> Honor the dead, support the veterans, work for peace and justice.
> Jack Mallory
> 11th Armored Cavalry Regiment
> '69-'70
> 
	Amen!

	I don't regularly dwell on my Vietnam experiences as a (US! vs. RA!)
Army chump in Vietnam in 1968, but last nite (Vet's Day) on the 10:00 news 
here in Manyicicles, MN, a newscaster made a closing remark that had a 
surprising impact on me. He said, 
	"To all the veterans out there, I hope somebody close to you has
said to you today, 'Thank You'".
	I am quite sure he meant it as a sincere effort at goodwill (he
is not one of the area's sleazier newscasters -- quite the opposite, in
fact), but it brought an immediate flood of intense sadness to me since
I realized that not only has nobody close to me _today_ said "Thank You", 
nobody close to me has *ever* said "Thank You" (nor have people _not_ close
to me ever said "Thank You"). Not before, not during, not after, not ever.
(Not even this presumably well-meaning newscaster).
	I am probably not alone.
	As ever, we are on our own. 
	So for all you broes out there:

		THANK YOU FOR BEING THERE!
		GOD BLESS YOU AND KEEP YOU, ONE AND ALL!

-Dave Devoy
 1st Bat., 46th Infantry, Chu Lai, '68
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
From: daudo@bcars201.bnr.ca (Dau Do)
Subject: Re: Effects of US war protestors (was Re: Stockdale....)
Reply-To: daudo@bcars201.bnr.ca (Dau Do)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 15:08:15 GMT

In article <BxBL6M.8ou@news.orst.edu>, Monte Olsen <olsenm@ccmail.orst.edu> writes:
>In article
><JTURNER.92Nov6181803@splinter.coe.northeastern.edu>
>Jeffrey Turner, jturner@splinter.coe.northeastern.edu
>writes:
>>	50,000 American dead vs. 3 million Vietnamese dead.  And
>it
>>was US policy which contributed much more to the
>continuation of
>>the war.  When SV President Diem Bien Phu wanted American
>troops to
>>withdraw and to negotiate a settlement, the US backed the
>coup which
>>killed him.  So much for SV democracy.  That, along with
>everything
>>else SV had to be destroyed to be saved.
>>
>
>Let's see now, what did you say the name of the S
>Vietnamese president was? Diem Bien Phu? I think you're
>confusing that with the location of one of France's
>greatest military defeats. I won't tell you the name of
>the place--you'll actually have to do some work and look
>it up yourself. (That should be a novel experience.) As
>for the president's name, does the name Bo Dinh Diem ring
                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^
hehehe ... I think you should do more research too !!!
The right spelling is : Ngo Dinh Diem ...

Take it easy !!!

>a bell? Good, I knew you'd get it.
>
>I'll be at the moving wall this weekend thinking of you,
>Jeffrey. 
>
>Monte Olsen
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
From: quoctp@cs.toronto.edu (Quoc Tuan Pham)
Subject: Re: Effects of US war protestors (was Re: Stockdale....)
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Toronto
Date: 7 Nov 92 17:45:40 GMT

tuan@lgc.com (Tuan Nguyen) writes:

>In article <92Nov5.230425est.47888@neat.cs.toronto.edu> quoctp@cs.toronto.edu (Quoc Tuan Pham) writes:
>>drk@cs.uiuc.edu (David Kohr) writes:
>>
>>>free-fire zones, carpet bombing, defoilation, and our support for the South
>>>Vietnamese police state.
>>>-- 
>>
>>
>>Do you have any opposition to carpet bombing of the jungles where
>>the NVA were? 
>>  

>Yes, I do.  Some Vietnamese just relish the destruction of their own country 
>-- and their countrymen -- at any costs to satisfy illusions of ideoligical
>beliefs.  In so doing, they fail to realize the strategy of the American war 
>did not work.  The Vietcong gained more support and were more convinced of
>their cause.  Unfortunately, the bombing and destruction of both North and
>South Vietnam continued.  The Americans only have their conscience to answer
>to.  The Vietnamese have to live with the consequences of such wholesale
>destruction for years to come.

Some more thoughts occurs to me so I'm posting another follow-up article.
I hope that I'm not trying someone's patience.

Tuan, it seems to me that you're repeating someone else's antiwar 
rhetoric without being able to think for yourself. Just like Dave
Kohr who had pursued Philosophy but doesn't not really understand
the meaning of the word "Police State" although he threw it out at 
the first opportunity.

Do you know how much destruction to the environments the communists 
caused by building the Ho Chi Minh trail? Do you know about massive 
artillery shellings by the communists that flatten Southern cities 
every time they wanted to take them over in their war to expand 
international communism? Do you know how much destruction is brought
to the jungles in the Central part of the country by their policy
of "New Economic Zones" and rampant loggings which cause floodings
at a scale never seen before? The last two things have been occurring 
way after the end of the war and have much more devastating effects 
than the Americans and their bombs during the war were able to do. 
In fact, the bomb shrapnels embedded in the trees have a positive benefits. 
They are not so good to the saw blades in Thailand's logging mills.
Hardwoods from Vietnam jungles don't sell that well. The current
commmunist government cannot benefits too much from cutting down
and exporting hardwood trees.

No, I don't think you're aware of these facts when you parroting
those anti-American rhetoric.
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Subject: Re: Stockdale at the debate
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 16:39:20 GMT

In article <1992Nov4.154615.18766@leland.Stanford.EDU> jfriday@westmark.Stanford.EDU (The Crazy Archivist) writes:
>
>Stockdale is a retired pilot, and pilots don't often give speeches in
>front of large crowds like he had to at the debate.
>

He's also a university president.  Presumably that involves at least
some public speaking.

QUIT
 speaking.

Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
From: tdn7039@ritvax.isc.rit.edu (Thomas Nguyen)
Subject: Re: North Vietnam
Reply-To: tdn7039@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 02:34:13 GMT

In article <JTURNER.92Nov5165649@splinter.coe.northeastern.edu>, jturner@splinter.coe.northeastern.edu (Jeffrey Turner) writes:
>	The "enemy" in Vietnam was not merely in the North.
>The Viet Cong were from the South and had strong popular
>support there.  US bombing only propelled more peasants
>into support of the VC (from The Pentagon Papers).
>Even the president of SV (Diem Bien Phu) argued for withdrawal of
          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   Dien Bien Phu (1954) the final battle between the French and the Vietnamese.
   Diem Dinh Ngo      The former South Vietnam President. He was 
                      assassinated(sp)  within a week with JFK

   Sorry Jeff.. I know you know your stufs, but I just want to
   set some facts straight.

>American troops and a negotiated peace until he was killed
>in a US backed coup.
>
>	There was no way to "win" the war.  US policy killed
>3 million Vietnamese and 50,000 Americans in the futile effort.
>
>			--Jeff Turner
>
>For an excellent analysis see Noam Chomsky's writings, including
>his article in the November issue of Z Magazine.
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
Subject: Re: Effects of US war protestors (was Re: Stockdale....)
From: f67700241@violet.ccit.arizona.edu (Greg Franklin)
Date: 8 Nov 92 13:10:03 MST
Distribution: world,local
Organization: University of Arizona
Nntp-Posting-User: f67700241

In article <BxBLA6.8p4@news.orst.edu>, olsenm@ccmail.orst.edu (Monte Olsen) writes:
> In article
> <JTURNER.92Nov6181803@splinter.coe.northeastern.edu>
> Jeffrey Turner, jturner@splinter.coe.northeastern.edu
> writes:
>>	Fortunately for the large number of Vietnamese who
> opposed
>>the US neo-colonialism.  The US has no right to run the
> world, and
>>the Vietnamese certainly showed that.
>>
> I'll be thinking of the names of my brothers on that wall
> and how you couldn't come up to their boot tops
> intellectually or otherwise.

The irony of course is that if the U.S. government hadn't plunged ahead
and rotated a million soldiers into VN over 10 years, the list of names
at that memorial would be much shorter, and you might still be talking to
your brothers today.

Let's not confuse criticism of the government's policies with criticism of
the vets themselves.  The dog-shit slinging and cries of "baby killer" were
uncalled for; criticism of the U.S. government's overreaching itself in
the fight against communism is not.

In any case, if you're going to the memorial, I'd like it if you could
tell a little about the ceremony.  I've never been there, but would like
to go sometime.
-- 
Greg "Mockingbird" Franklin      Interviewer: "Sir, how do you spell relief?"
f67700241@ccit.arizona.edu               Dan: "R-O-L-A-I-D-S-E."

"[George Bush is] the most ruthless white man in the history of the planet."
	-- Richard Ben Cramer, author of _What It Takes_
"The President scores much better than Bill Clinton."
	-- Dan, comparing Bush's record of marital infidelity to Clinton's
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
From: emmertcd@feserve.cc.purdue.edu (Craig D. Emmert)
Subject: Veteran's Day
Organization: Purdue University
Distribution: alt.war, alt.war.vietnam
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 06:26:06 GMT


To all Veterans everywhere, past, present, and future - Thank you and 
God Bless.  Thank you for bringing my father home.  Nothing can express
how I feel.
				From a new Vet.
					Craig

******
May we never forget those that served 
or the lessons they have tought us.
******
From: dean@vexcel.com (Dean Alaska)
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
Subject: Re: Effects of US war protestors (was Re: Stockdale....)
Date: 10 Nov 92 20:57:19 GMT
Organization: VEXCEL Corporation, Boulder CO

In article <1992Nov10.173820.25529@b8.b8.ingr.com> larry@b8.b8.ingr.com (Larry Billings) writes:
>
>The news media before the shooting showed the destructive nature of the
>rioters, but after the deaths pprtrayed them as innocents.  Why you might
>ask?  Because it makes a better news story.  That's why.
>
Maybe its because some of the people shot were not involved in the protest.
>
>Larry Billings


-- 

		dingo in boulder	(dean@vexcel.com)
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam,talk.politics.misc,alt.flame
From: drieux@wetware.com (drieux, just drieux)
Subject: Re: How to do the Art Noir Ad Hominiem
Organization: Castle WetWare Philosopher and Sniper
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 20:23:06 GMT

drk@cs.uiuc.edu (David Kohr) writes:
] In article <1992Nov11.083638.4950@wetware.com> drieux@wetware.com (drieux,
] just drieux) writes:
] >] In article <1992Nov8.212723.25899@emr1.emr.ca> knguyen@emr1.emr.ca (Kim
] >] Nguyen) writes:
] >] > But I tell you that I dream to see Communist Vietnam die.
] >] 
] >] To anyone reading Kim's postings, this admission should serve as a warning
] >] signal regarding the accuracy and completeness of the historical facts
] >] presented and the biases reflected in the conclusions reached.
] >] -- 
] >] Dave Kohr     drk@cs.uiuc.edu
] >
] >I think folks that this is a LOVELY and EXCELLENT piece of classic Art
] >Noir Ad Hominiem!!!!
] >
] >ciao
] >drieux
] 
] drieux, in the rush to abuse his/her/its <Shift> key and bombard us with
] yet another drawn-out piece of failed sarcastic drivel, has totally
] overlooked the fact that Kim has openly admitted to an overwhelming
] anti-Communist bias, from which one can quite reasonably infer that Kim's
] postings reflect this bias.  No _ad hominem_ here.
 
the point is that anyone who is AntiCommunist is
clearly an invalid source of data.....

Nope, Not an Ad Hominiem attack on the validity of
the argument, Nope, You are Right, and I am Wrong....

So How long have you been an Agent of the Monolithic Athiestic
Asiatic Godless International Communist Conspiracy...

MAAGICC for short folks....

] Perhaps drieux should spend more time attempting to comprehend postings
] than sniping at them (with poor marksmanship in this case, I would add).

we do NOT call it sniping if the target shoots themselves
in the foot.....

ciao
drieux


ps: Good, try, small points for the 'typography flame'
which is Clearly Important for maintaining the Correct
Party Line... Heavens if we allow people liberty,
why they Might Become Decadent Western Capitalists....

Just Look what happened to the PRC, we franchise Pepsi
to them, and they Attacked Vietnam....



-- 
Modern Day Problems:

Hi Diddle, Diddle, the Cat and the Fiddle,
The Cow Blew Up on the Launching Pad
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam
From: smittie@beach.csulb.edu (Smittie)
Subject: Re: Veterans' Day
Organization: Cal State Long Beach
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 21:20:43 GMT

I am complete shit at writing poetry, indulge me.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
I can remember
	body count, kia, mia, dmz, lz
Pictures on TV
	Da Nang, Khe Sang, Hanoi
Those men look awful young
	LRPs, SEALs, Green Beret
Will it soon be me

And I remembered still
	Boot Camp, Chow, Barricks
That first dark, early morning
	SN, PO3, PO2, PO1
As I was awakened against my will
	DDG, FFG, CGN, CVN
To stand "At AttenSHUN" for hours before my meal

The memories now are good for me
	PI, Hong Kong, Sasebo
I enjoyed my time in grade
	Thailand, Momabasa, Singapore
Yet my intent when I joined to serve
	Hawaii, Yokosuka, Guam
Was to repay the contribution
	Atsugi, Misawa, Okinawa
That those before me had made
	"Hand SALUTE"
	"Ready"
	"TWO"
	[This meager attempt at poetry, such as it is, is dedicated to Dave Devoy,]
	[who serve his country in the First Battalion of the Forty Six Infantry in]
	[Vietnam in 1968.   Thanks Dave.                                          ]

smittie
--
                             Tada mono de ha nai
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
GEnie, MCI, AOL:Smittie   All of these accounts except MCI will die on or
smittie@beach.csulb.edu   about Dec 31. UNIX will be forwarded for 2 weeks.
Newsgroups: alt.war.vietnam