From: jarqui@scorch.apana.org.au (Jared Quinn)
Subject: Re: My daughter needs to be more assertive (II)
Organization: Craggenmoore public Unix system , Newcastle , Oz
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 18:32:22 GMT

RGINZBERG@eagle.wesleyan.edu (Ruth Ginzberg) writes:

Hello Everyone, here I am again, yeap, the 15 year old who's just read
all  the  messages  in  alt.kids-talk  and is passing by here... I can
really relate to what you are saying here...

|A few more facts:

|Rachel's goal in life is total self-abnegation.  She wants to be a housewife,
|because she thinks that's the most "selfless" thing she could do.  This is in
|rebellion against what she sees as *my* extreme self-centeredness.  

She may change as she grows up...   These days most women would rather
be  out in a career...  Which I feel is really good.. But if she wants
to be a housewife that is also good...

|My story is
|this:  Her Dad left me when I was 6 months pregnant (moved out of state, left
|me no word of where he was -- he was with another woman during that time, it
|turns out, & he was also attending college).  I WAS a housewife: 22 years old,
|no skills, no job, no education, no money, not even rent money for the next
|month's rent.  Since then, I went to college, graduate school, and earned a
|Ph.D. and got an academic job (teaching in an East Coast university where NO
|ONE is "supposed to" have a personal history "like that").  You cannot BELIEVE
|( -- neither can I -- ) the amount of perseverence, hardship, stamina, etc.
|that it took to get from there to where I am now (while supporting & raising a
|daughter -- & a nephew part of that time). 

I **DO** believe the amout of perseverence,  hardship  stanima  etc...
We were in the same position ourselfs for a while...  When I was 3  my
mum  was  pregnant  with  my  little brother... My dad racked off with
another woman... we were left with almost nothing (thank god  we  were
left with the house... which we own 1/4 of now... as we have just been
able  to  get a morgage to do the magor repairs that have needed to be
done  for  upto 10 years but we have not been able to afford it... Mum
was left with 2 kids and one coming, a house, no training, no job, not
a terrible ammount of education, we stuggled for years, untill 3 years
ago  she  graduated  with  a  B.A.  Dip.  Ed (primary), yeap a primary
school teacher,  things are looking up now... 

| Yes, Rachel has lived in
|poverty-stricken neighborhoods where almost no teenage girls graduated from
|high  school  because  they were nearly all Mothers themselves by the
|age of 14 or 15. 

Thankgod we never had to get out of the house or move... we always had
a  roof over head which was really good and especially knowing that we
own soem of it...

|HER version of her life is that she remembers me as a self-centered, selfish,
|and somewhat abnormal person, fairly unfit to be a mother, in her view.  I
|always was working at several jobs, taking classes, etc. -- stuff that Nobody
|Else's Mother did, so far as she knew.  She interpreted the fact that I
|was always very busy as being that I didn't care about her.  Ever since I can
|remember she wanted me to "stay home" -- you know, be at home waiting in the
|doorway with cookies & milk when she got home from school, be a room-mother at
|her school, etc. (When she was in 9th grade she finally convinced a family
|therapist that she really *NEEDED* this kind of a "stable environment" -- so
|she went to live w. her dad & step-mom (who IS exactly the kind of fairy-tale
|housewife that Rachel always wanted me to be).)  She feels that the fact that
|she spent a lot of time with babysitters when she was young (true) is evidence
|of my "neglect" or "non-caring". (In reality, I took her to my work with me
|QUITE often, but she HATED that -- she'd be bored & want to go home.  So since
|I had to work, I often had babysitters for her.  What other choice did I have?)

Well   through   all   our hard times, my mum never let us go without,
she managed to get us  things  we  wanted,  not  everything  but  afew
things..  She never had the right or latest text books for uni because
she  always  wanted  the  best  for  us...   even  if  it  meant   her
photocopying pages from textbooks to study...

|else and never considering her own needs.  Never even HAVING any of her own
|needs, if she had her preference.  Totally "at others' service" (husband,
|children, neighborhood children, & God -- she's very into Turning Herself Over
|to God's Will, being God's servant, etc.).

I was brought up as a christian yet now detest it...  I am agnostic...

|She doesn't date (how's she gonna be a housewife without a husband?).  When
|ever she's expressed to me that she wished that so-and-so would ask her out,
|I'd say, "Hey - this is the 90's! You ask HIM out.  You're in Luck!  Girls
|don't Have to just sit around waiting for boys to ask them out any more."  But
|she'd just give me that "Oh, Mom, you Neanderthal!" look, & sit around waiting
|for something to happen. (This relates back to my original Subject line: My
|Daughter Needs to Be More Assertive.)

BIGGEST MISTAKE!!!!  Dont try to tell her that she  should  be  dating
and that she should ask someone out...  Parents are NEVER  welcome  in
that area, despite what u may think/feel...

My girlfriend, she is 13 (i am 15), asked me out before we hardly knew
each other... we get on really well..  I really respect her for asking
ME out...  It takes alot of guts  to  ask  someone  out  u  dont  even
know...   but  anyway  we  are  going  fine..  I haven't been out with
anyone seriously before this.. hardly anyone at all...  

Give her a chance, she may not want  to  date  people...  she  may  be
looking  for  the  right person...  I cant stand casual relationships,
and  after what has happened to her she will be after something stable
and she will not want to get into a relationship she is not 100%  sure
about...

I dont know how my girlfriend did... but now she  is  sure  about  our
relationship, she lives with her best friend as her mum is a drunk and
she  doesn't  like  her  stepmum...  She is very insecure thanx to her
parents, So i am try to be there whenever I can for extra  support,  I
know she needs it...  I myself am very insecure, I  detest  my  mother
and my christian upbringing...  but I put that behind  me...  I  am  a
fighter I live thru things like that without outside support,  atleast
I  am  pschologically<sp>  stable,  but  I  have  been  almost  insane
before...  I went really bad for a  while...   be  thankfull   that  I
presume  your  daughter  is  not  an  acoholic  and  not  addicted  to
ciggerettes..  I went thru that... I used to drink whenevre I could...
I almost kilt myself one night....   But  that  is  all  behind  me...
except that I detest my mother... although she has always worked  hard
to  provide  us  with  things, she is a career person...  I would give
ANYTHING to be living by myself...

|my kid hates me.  I DON'T want to just sit by & watch her dig herself into
|exactly the same hole.  I've tried the "God didn't give you Talents in order
|for you to waste them, He meant for you to use them" approach, but she won't
|talk to me about God or religion (I'm Jewish & she has converted to
|Christianity & believes that Jews are destined to go to Hell). <Another
|decision, BTW, of *hers* which I let her make w/out my interfering...>

Yeah  my mum let me turn agnostic without much interfering, but before
that  I  had  to  go  to  the extreme...    Rachel sounds just like me
actually.. .I converted from being catholic tho...  I wont talk to mum
about god or religion...  As  for  believing  that  you  will  got  to
hell...   I  dont believe in the place (nor heaven) so I cant say much
there, but to make my point to mum that I wasn't christian I had to go
to some extremes, she just wouldn't listen to me...  

|Oh,  geez, I'm sorry to keep rambling on & on & on.  I'm sure this is
|not really interesting to you. Probably we should all  be  in  Family
|Therapy (as many have also suggested), but Rachel's Dad & step-mom "
|don't believe in it".  So I could go by myself (maybe I will)...

Hmm..  Well  dont  worry  about rambling on.. over in alt.kids-talk we
call  it a spew as you just spew out all your feelings and whatever is
troubling you or whatever....  Have u ever thort of getting Rachel  on
the net???  its a great place to meet people and there are a fair  few
about  our  ages...  But anyway... I know how much I detest my mother,
and i have a fair idea how much Rachel detests you, but I  am  on  her
side as I am in the same position...

-Jared





-- 
			   = Jared Quinn =
                     jarqui@scorch.apana.org.au

		      "I want to break free..."