HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Boycotting the Vote
Date: 12 Nov 92 20:05:34 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.mensa

In article <1992Nov11.000940.8619@engage.pko.dec.com>,
moroney@ramblr.enet.dec.com wrote:
> 
> In article <mike_steiner-101192125731@192.35.50.131>, mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner) writes...
> >That is true; [None of the Above] is on the ballot in Nevada.  IMO, it should
> >be on the ballot in every state, for every election. 
> 
> Definitely!
> 
> But what should the proper procedure be if "None of the Above" wins?  Office
> goes vacant?  A new election with all those on the previous ballot[s]
> ineligible?  Something else?

This has been discussed before (maybe not here, but I think that we had a
go-round on it a year ago).  *My* preference would be that the position
remains vacant until the next scheduled election (which would not
necessarily be at the completion of the ter--at least in the case of
Senator; witness the Feinstein election here in CA for an example), and
that all vacant seats automatically be counted as "no" votes.  In the case
of an executive (e.g., president), all bills presented would automatically
be vetoed, and would require an override to pass.

Anyway, that's my first cut at it.

+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Now that I have a reader that can do .sigs, I can't think of a witty |
|one to put here, so I won't.  All normal disclaimers apply.          |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: eager@eagercon.com (Michael J. Eager)
Subject: Re: 10 Mensans in a Room with 27 Opinions
Reply-To: eager@eagercon.com
Organization: Eager Consulting
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 07:40:14 GMT

In article PSJ@linac.fnal.gov, matt@severian.chi.il.us (Matt Crawford) writes:
>James Thompson:
>>>The third umpire, older and wiser than the other two, said
>>>"Boys, until I calls them, they ain't".
>>
>>Was the third umpire's name Schrodinger, by any chance?
>>Quantum sports.  What will they think of next?
>
>Oh, great!  If the ball gets past the infielders, it undergoes
>five-slit interference.  By the time an outfielder can collapse its
>wave function, the batter will be delocalized over all the bases and
>be called safe at home with amplitude (1+2i)/sqrt(40).
>
>It's not over until the fat lady opens the newspaper and reads the score.


And what happened to the cat?


---
Michael J. Eager		Michael.Eager@eagercon.com
Eager Consulting		(415) 325-8077 
1960 Park Boulevard, Palo Alto, CA 94306-1141
From: ken@nate.UUCP (Ken Gacioch)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: the question is the answer ?!
Date: 10 Nov 92 22:15:56 GMT
Reply-To: nate!ken@cs.rit.edu
Organization: HealthChex, Inc.

varhus@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Kristofor A. Varhus) writes:
>|>> "Write a question that you feel would be suitable for a 
>|>> final exam and answer it."
>What do you mean he didn't answer the question?  Yes he did!!!!
>He wrote the sentence *twice*!  Once for the question suitable for a final,
>and once for its answer.  How could you possibly think he didn't answer the
>question?!
>
>Explain that!

Is it that the sentence is imperative, not interrogatory?
Other than that, it looks like a great answer.
Hope I have a chance to plagiarize it some day.
KG.
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: ecsd@tfs.com (Eric C. S. Dynamic)
Subject: Re: Rules of Order
Organization: The Great Beast 666 goes to the Y to work out
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 00:06:00 GMT

ivaliote@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Matthew Ivaliotes) writes:
>I have an extreme interest in trying to create more `intelligent' ways of
>running things, from governments to businesses to non-profit agencies.  I
>have had wuite a bit of experience with Robert's Rules, and even though my
>level of expertise is quite high, I find them to be cumbersome, overly
>complicated, and inefficient.  Would any Mensans be interested in developing 
>a replacement for Robert's Rules, something that might return some sanity to
>the idea of deliberative assembly?  Just curious what we'd come up with.
>
>Matt I.

I was always struck by how the rules could foreclose debate - so it seems,
as I recall. I think the rules are framed by the intention of the group
which would use them, so Robert's may not be best suited to certain tasks.

If you list existing things which strike you as wrong or inefficient, I will
join in the discussion as to what might be done about them.

I never liked the idea of a filibuster - seems a curious way for a deliberative
body to shoot itself in the foot. I've heard that it was a useful device in
obtaining results {which I would endorse} but it seems kind of silly to reach
a place where Frank Capra gets to make a movie about endurance and vigor, etc.
when the recognition By the body could be that they had reached that place -
like, well, the rules *would permit you* to have a war here - so let's not,
and say we did - something like that. Congress is in session only so long each
year.

True Consensus sucks too, though, in any but small, or well-knit groups.

*******

On a related subject - making sure we've gotten everybody's input - we can't
give Everyone access, but we may not need to - it's not important to have
Fred Jones himself get up to the mike, to say what Ophelia Johnson just said.
Our problem is to see how to sift through all opinions to find the variations
in response - yes, colored this way; yes, upon this condition; yes, in trade
for a concession elsewhere - etc. etc.
From: jcooley@miracle.com (John Cooley)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Xerox of GMAT score OK for admission?
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 20:56:18 EDT
Organization: Miracle Computer Consultants

johnson@sleipnir.mnesouth.corp.mot.com (Mark Johnson) writes:
>In article jcooley@miracle.com (John Cooley) writes:
>=) My question is: "Is it OK to xerox a friend's GMAT score to get into
>=) Mensa ?"
>
>Well, I've heard the case made that cheating on the proctored test is an
>acceptable way to get in.  After all, the proctors are Mensans, and if you
>were able to outwit them...

Well said!  I'll remember that thought next time I'm caught cheating...

                                                       -John

 ==========================================================================
       John Cooley              Zappa as a waste management engineer: 
                                  "Hey, there, Brother!  Whatcha
    jcooley@miracle.com            doing with that Cosmic Debris?"
From: jimt@carson.u.washington.edu (James Thompson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: IQ Test Creation Question
Date: 11 Nov 92 01:36:23 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <1992Nov9.192300.5713@cbnewse.cb.att.com> gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart) writes:
>
>Why not devise a problem that takes you a certain amount of time to
>complete and expect the "smarter" person to do it faster?
>
WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.  If I pose problems at the 4th grade level
to adults, and then score on how many of them a person completes within a
certain amount of time, I don't think that what I am measuring is intelligence!

I think of (at least one aspect of) intelligence as the ability to grasp
complex concepts and apply them.  No matter how fast I can do long division,
if I just can't quite get a handle on what integrals are good for, then I'm
not highly (mathematically) intelligent.  Once you get significantly above the
conceptual limit of the person devising the test, you're not measuring
intelligence any more -- just speed.

I can see, though, how a test that covers a wide range of subjects (a "high
brainwidth" test) could overcome this:
If each section is written by people who specialize in and excell in that area,
then the overall score may be able to indicate higher intelligence than that
of any of the writers.  To do this, we assume that the testee is better at
some types of problems than others-- that there is some non-uniform distibution
of skills.  In hisr own area of expertise, we can expect that the certifiable
genius will "peg" the test.  If the testee also aces a large number of other
sections on the test, then (possibly) we can determine by extrapolation what
hisr overall "intelligence" is. 

example:
(distribution of scores for a single testee for different subjects, with
similar subjects grouped together.  * is an actual score, + is extrapolated.)

                 ++++++
               ++      ++
              +          +
             +            +
------------****************--------------  - Perfect scores for each section
           *                     *** 
                            *   *   *** 
    **  ***                  ***       ***
****  *
       *



__________________________________________  - Zero scores for each section

I don't know -- I just wanted to do an ASCII graph.

Jim
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: eager@eagercon.com (Michael J. Eager)
Subject: Re: Voting Analysis
Reply-To: eager@eagercon.com
Organization: Eager Consulting
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 07:16:39 GMT

In article 3923@cbnewse.cb.att.com, gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart) writes:
>In article <1992Nov3.232231.25774@eagercon.com> eager@eagercon.com writes:
>>In article 6985@nntpd.lkg.dec.com, edp@math.zk3.dec.com (Eric Postpischil) writes:
>>>I have stated REPEATEDLY that I do NOT assert that a RELIABLE message is
>>>sent.  I assert that a message is sent, and I have offered reasons and
>>>evidence for that.  I admit it is unreliable, but it is nonetheless
>>>there, as is known to students of information theory and as is
>>>demonstrable to others.  By disproving that a "reliable" message is
>>>sent, you are disproving some statement other than what I assert, and
>>>thus you do not disprove what I did assert.
>>
>>Students of information theory know about messages.  There is no concept of 
>>"unreliable message", only messages which are either delivered or not.  
>>The noise of a channel determines whether a message is delivered at some
>>level of reliability.  It is the channel which has the reliability, not the
>>message.
>>
>>You have only proven that some noise can be confused with a message, if you 
>>believe that there is a message.  Your past demonstrations were worthless,
>>including in them the assumption that the message is known even if it cannot
>>be detected.  
>>
>>You have also shown that much noise can be used to conceal the absense of
>>a message, by generating a lot of such noise.
>
>I don't understand your skepticism, Mike.  Eric has already stated
>REPEATEDLY that he is right.  Why don't you believe him?  The next
>time Eric wants to debate a topic, me, I'll just ask him if he's
>right, and if he says he is, that's good enough for me!
>
>Now, if I had not stated the above, that would have told you that
>if Eric told me he was right, I would know he was wrong.  Or...
>wait a minute...
>
>Anyway, my analogy holds and I've proven myself right.  As you
>can plainly see.  
>
>BTW, if you know of a position on this that is undoubtedly correct,
>then that's the one I meant, as I've plainly stated over and over.
>And the wrong position is exactly the oppposite of what I've been
>saying, and you're fabricating whatever it is that you thought I
>implied, which is what I didn't.  So I did.
>
>GM("QED")S


Gilbert, I have had soooo much trouble understanding this point that
I have to thank you for so clearly and unequivically elcucidating the
matter.


---
Michael J. Eager		Michael.Eager@eagercon.com
Eager Consulting		(415) 325-8077 
1960 Park Boulevard, Palo Alto, CA 94306-1141

Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: jt@fuw.edu.pl (Jerzy Tarasiuk)
Subject: Re: WHAT IS INTELLIGENCE
Organization: Warsaw University Physics Dept.
	<l69pd+k@lynx.unm.edu>
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 18:28:00 GMT

>>>>> On Mon, 02 Nov 92 03:09:16 GMT, mdiehl@triton.unm.edu (J. Michael Diehl) said:
>
>Okay, I'll take a stab at this. Intelligence is not a single measurable
>entity, but a compilation of several attributes that contribute to the
>overall measure of "intelligence" as we understand it. Presently, I would
>guess that the standard techniques of IQ measurement can measure 2 or 3 of
>the "intelligence variables" but no more. As well, these measures are
>probably biased towards mechanical thinkers, and more specifically, males.
>The image manipulation and replacement logistics in IQ tests are certainly
>an unfair advantage for males due to our structural differences.
>
>Now, I think I remember a great definition of intelligence we discussed in
>class once. Here's the jist of it: (I don't want to type away my whole
>saturday morning - great school football game on in 3 hours!)
>
>1) mathematical (logical and numerical analysis)
>2) spatial (transposition and manipulation of objects and ideas)
>3) social ability (social and personal tact (verbal, non verbal)
>4) self-analysis and understanding (emotions, wishes, motivations)
>5) linguistics (verbiage, eloquence, literary concepts)
>6) musical (playing, understanding, composition)
>7) coordination (remember, coordination is partially physical, but also
>                 a great deal mental as well...)
>
>anyways, that's the notion of my definition. Feel free to barrage it with
>your flames at will...

J.> Well, I must say, you did a VERY good job of defining something as amorphous
J.> as intelect.  But even you admit that IQ tests do not measure it well.  That
J.> was the main point against using IQ as a voting filter.

I don't suppose these attributes constitute intelligence or they
are directly related to it. They all can be result of learning,
and intelligence is ability to learn and to adapt intellect to
new rules rather than how-much-was-learned-till-now.
Of course, if someone has high intelligence he/she usually learns
a lot and measuring of the attributes can show it, but it cannot
detect high intelligence of someone living far from civilization,
who needed to learn something quite different from what we know.
Good measure of intelligence can be a game using logic different
from everything the tested persons know: this makes equal chances.
From: bwbrock@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Benjamin Warre Brock)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Marylin Vos Savant. Personal info request <=****
Date: 10 Nov 92 23:59:04 GMT
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA

sorry about not including the orig article, 
but people tend to either change to resemble their names over time,
or our perception of them is changed by their names.  Example: Wolf Blitzer.
BTW I would be suprised if Vos Savant was her original last name.

-- 
Ben Brock
bwbrock@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu
aero engr (junior)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: eager@eagercon.com (Michael J. Eager)
Subject: Re: the question is the answer ?!
Reply-To: eager@eagercon.com
Organization: Eager Consulting
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 19:25:23 GMT

In article 111192152016@192.35.50.131, mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner) writes:
>In article <1992Nov10.154338.8379@nntp.nta.no>, stein@hal.nta.no (Stein
>Kulseth FBA) wrote:
>> 
>> In article <1992Nov10.144701.390@blaze.cs.jhu.edu>, wilson@rhombus.cs.jhu.edu (Dwight Wilson) writes:
>> |> In article <1992Nov5.213159.10826@sbcs.sunysb.edu> kthiruma@engws3.ic.sunysb.edu () writes:
>> |> >
>> |> >a question when repeated becomes its own answer.
>> |> >
>> |> 
>> |> This reminds me of a (probably apocryphal) story I read somewhere
>> |> long ago.  It seems a professor gave a final exam consisting of
>> |> a single question.
>> |> 
>> |> "Write a question that you feel would be suitable for a 
>> |> final exam and answer it."
>> |> 
>> |> One student thought for a few moments, then wrote the above
>> |> sentence twice.
>> |> 
>> |> -Dwight
>> 
>> Well, I hope he flunked, for he obviously did not answer the question.
>
>Actually, there weren't any questions to answer. There was a directive to
>follow, though.  He didn't follow the directive because he didn't ask a
>question.


So how about "What question do you feel would be suitable for a
final exam?  What question do you feel would be suitable for a
final exam?"

(No, Ma'am, I'm not stuttering...just my tongue flapping too fast.)

---
Michael J. Eager		Michael.Eager@eagercon.com
Eager Consulting		(415) 325-8077 
1960 Park Boulevard, Palo Alto, CA 94306-1141

Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: eager@eagercon.com (Michael J. Eager)
Subject: Re: How to get IQ tests
Reply-To: eager@eagercon.com
Organization: Eager Consulting
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 23:23:37 GMT

In article 25367@vela.acs.oakland.edu, jmwojtal@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Wojo) writes:
>I was wondering how a person can take an IQ test?
>
>I never took one in school, and I just wanted to know what my IQ is.  Do you go
>to a school and ask for one, or what.  Can anyone give me advice on getting one
>for me please?

I don't know where Oakland University is.  I don't even know what continent it is
on.  

If you are in the US, you can look in your local white pages for Mensa.  Local 
groups frequently have listings.  They can tell you where and when the local group
is holding a proctored test.  Or you can call American Mensa Ltd. in Brooklyn, NY,
for the number of the local group.  

You can also take an IQ test administered by any psycholigist.  But this may be
a bit pricy.

If you are not in the US, you can contact Mensa Canada (I think in Toronto?) or 
International Mensa in London.


---
Michael J. Eager		Michael.Eager@eagercon.com
Eager Consulting		(415) 325-8077 
1960 Park Boulevard, Palo Alto, CA 94306-1141

Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart)
Subject: Re: Xerox of GMAT score OK for admission?
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 21:35:56 GMT

In article <1dbk9gINNll3@gap.caltech.edu> vance@cco.caltech.edu (Vance R. Haemmerle) writes:
> All the Mensa gatherings I have been to have been very civilized ;)
> The people were friendly and fun.  The people were much more
> diverse then I first expected and not people I would generally
> meet working at a University.  I feel that the lack of face-to-face
> communication on the network leads to people saying things they
> would not usually say in social gatherings.
>

You're right.  These are the "keyboard brave" that were mentioned
in a previous post.

As for me, however, I'm just as good or nasty in person, as the case
may be, perhaps even moreso.  

Except that I smile more.

GM("Image is All")S
From: mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Marylin Vos Savant.  Personal info request <=****
Date: 12 Nov 92 19:40:58 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.mensa

In article <1992Nov10.165452.9185@cbnewse.cb.att.com>,
gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart) wrote:
> 
> In article <09Nov92200433@miracle.com> jcooley@miracle.com (John Cooley) writes:
> >edp@math.zk3.dec.com (Eric Postpischil) writes:
> >>In article <R1PVTB4w165w@iowegia.uucp>, quest@iowegia.uucp (Steve J.
> >>Quest) writes:
> >>
> >>>My first reaction to the name is "what a lucky person to have a 
> >>>last name of Savant".
> >>
> >>It might not be luck; a family might have been named for their
> >>characteristics.  I've been told "Postpischil" is Czechoslovakian for
> >>"quick witted".
> >>
> >>
> >>                                -- edp (Eric Postpischil)
> >>                                "Always mount a scratch monkey."
> >>                                edp@rusure.enet.dec.com
> >
> >
> >Eric, isn't Postpischil a German name though?
> >
> >                                   -- John who name has many meanings
> 
> I think it's Austrian for "One who has made yellow snow."

No, it means after the one who has made yellow snow--you forgot the
pre-Post.

+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Now that I have a reader that can do .sigs, I can't think of a witty |
|one to put here, so I won't.  All normal disclaimers apply.          |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Help....college is killing me!!!!
Date: 12 Nov 92 16:47:11 GMT
Article-I.D.: cbnewse.1992Nov12.164711.9489
Organization: AT&T

In article <BxL16K.4xv@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> ivaliote@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Matthew Ivaliotes) writes:
>jcooley@miracle.com (John Cooley) writes:
>>Matt, wait until you get to the "real" world!
>
>A term I hate and always have.  At least it puts real in quotes.
>
>>You'll have office politics, mortgauges, medical bills, unemployment
>>checks, lawyers and college loans to deal with!  Throw on top dealing
>>with your interpersonal relationships, 40 to 60 hour work weeks, kids
>>and parental expectations plus a crappy economy where you'll be graduating
>>into a world where the American Dream has been reduced to have an above
>>minimum wage job that gives you a decent health plan!

When I went to college, I worked three jobs -- two part-time (8 and 20 hours)
and one "full" time (32-45 hours), dated someone who lived 100 miles
away, didn't have anyone in my family who had gone to college, so didn't
have a grip on what I'd do in the workforce or how I'd like it.  I was
overworked and underpaid and worried about my future.

When I started in the workplace, I worked 100-150 hours a week.  Believe
it.  Little sleep, lots of fun.  Why?  I liked it.  I wanted to.  Whine?
What about?  It made me proud to be able to do it.

I turns out that I'm very good at the things I do in the "real" world,
because I enjoy them, and I enjoy them because I'm good at them.

I don't mind paying taxes and bills.  I get what I want, I want what
I get, I don't want most of what I don't have.

I'm surer of myself, less worried about the future, less concerned about
what others think and do.  Fact is, I don't give two shits about what
most people think, which is quite different from my teenage and early
20s years.

The "real" world can be taken much less seriously than people think.
The "real" world can be controlled and influenced much more than people think.

It's certainly a nicer place than I was told.

You people who have been warned about the "real" world have had a big
joke played on you.  You've got sixty years ahead of you to kick a**,
so have a blast.

If I only had known all the heartache I had when I was a kid was so
trivial and how great all the joy really was.  Now that I'm older, I
can really appreciate it all.  The best times of my life are still
happening right now.

The "real" world is quite a kick.

Joke 'em if they can't take a f**k.

GMS
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: drysda02@ursa.calvin.edu (David Rysdam)
Subject: manholes
Keywords: manholes
Organization: Calvin College
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 22:38:26 GMT

manholes are round so that they cannot be dropped into the hole that
they are covering.  a moment's thought will make it obvious why
this should be so.  (hint: a square cover can go down diagonally).