HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Irish Times subscription info--got any??
From: dresler@cabell.vcu.edu (Dan Resler)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 22:59:34 GMT
Organization: Virginia Commonwealth University

oconnell@vms.macc.wisc.edu (Kevin Patrick O'Connell) writes:


>Does anyone have an address to which I can write for a subscription to 
>the Irish Times?  How much does it cost?  Can I get just the weekend 
>or Sunday edition?  

The Irish Times is published Monday - Saturday. The Satuday edition
has a special weekend section with reviews of books, plays,
concerts, etc. But it does not review the weeks happenings. The reason I 
mention this is that the Sunday Tribune is published weekly and therefore
covers the entire week's events. Now the quality of the Tribune is
another matter ...

>Are there well-loved columnists in the Irish Times (or other 
>publications?  

yes

Dan Resler
Virginia Commonwealth University
From: cbenson@bazooka.amb.org (Christopher Benson)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Birthday bumps
Summary: Birthday bumps in Glamorgan, Northamptonshire,...
	 and Lincolnshire
Date: 1 Sep 92 06:43:13 GMT
Organization: AMB Research Labs, Sunnyvale, CA

In article <1992Aug26.002041.17665@microsoft.com>, georgere@microsoft.com (George V. Reilly) writes:
> giving somebody the "bumps" on their birthday.
> 
> Does this happen anywhere else?  I'm not even sure if it
> happens elsewhere in Ireland.
> 
> George V. Reilly   <GeorgeRe@Microsoft.Com>

I can personally vouch that this was very common in Glamorgan/
Carmarthenshire (W.Glam/Dyfed now), Wales, Northamptonshire and
Lincolnshire, England during my bumpy birthdays in those places.
In Wales it was *imposed* by my *younger cousins* during Autumn
Half Term (all of whom learned this in South Wales), and after
or before the holiday, it happened back at school in England.
In England, it was just part of *you're it*, or *Are you a PLP?*.
It was not painful, even on the concrete playground.  It was
a friendly activity.  The number of bumps was one more than the
years of age (one for luck), and the last was the hardest.

My children (born in USA) have not heard of this.



Chris Benson whose email address is apparently under construction.
I will post my email address when I know it,
but try ...!sgilab!bazooka!cbenson instead of ...bazooka!cbenson
From: mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: FYI - Politics in NI
Date: 3 Sep 92 08:58:48 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London, UK.

From: walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,)
>I do not want to sound like a pedant on this point (but I am going to
>nevertheless), but the settlers of which you speak were mostly Scots,
>and if the point is push it can be argued that originally they can from
>Irland in the 500s(?), therefore Irish Gaelic is part of their
>inheritance also (even though it was a little further back).

There has been some discussion over whether any of the
Plantation settlers would have spoken Scots Gaelic, but I think
they tended to be Lowland Scots not Highland Scots, thus not of
Celtic origin. You are making the common mistake of thinking
that all Scots are Highland Scots.

Matthew Huntbach
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,sci.physics,sci.misc
From: mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: FYI - Politics in NI
Date: 2 Sep 92 14:14:47 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London, UK.

From: smckinty@sunicnc.France.Sun.COM (Steve McKinty - Sun ICNC)
In article <31AUG92.10125231@enh.nist.gov>, downey@enh.nist.gov writes:

        > How important are Celtic symbols in NI?  Is Irish spoken or
        > taught much in NI?  These are just a few questions that popped
        > into my head while I was watching the show.
        >
>Irish is taught in the Catholic (church-run) schools in NI, and I believe it
>is a recognised exam subject in the same way French & German are. From
>talking with schoolfriends from those schools (many years ago) I think it
>was compulsory up to about age 15, and optional after that. I don't know
>if that has changed in recent years.

I think Irish is a recognised exam subject (i.e. you can
take GCSEs and A levels in it) throughout the UK,
but not widely taught as there's little demand for it. The
situation in NI is that the Catholics are the descendants of
the originally Irish-speaking population of Ireland, so Irish
is part of their cultural inheritance, while the Protestants
are descended from English-speaking settlers so the language is
not part of their cultural inheritance. It is for this reason
that Irish tends to be taught in the Catholic schools but not
in the secular (in practice Protestant) schools, there is no
law which says this is how it should be.

Irish has almost disappeared everywhere in Ireland as a mother
tongue, and there is nowhere in NI which is naturally Irish
speaking. It has however been adopted as a symbol by those of
Republican sympathies, to the extent that there are some who
are said to be bringing up their children speaking it as the
first language, though for the parents it would be a
textbook-learnt language.

As for "Celtic symbols", I think you should distinguish between
the Celtic regions as they actually are, and the romantic image
of celticry as people who read and sword-and-sorcery novels
would like them to be.

Matthew Huntbach
From: ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Celtic Harps?
Date: 29 Aug 92 04:25:56 GMT
Distribution: soc.culture.celtic
Organization: Indiana University

In article <1992Aug28.040632.6497@news.acns.nwu.edu> soren@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Barratt Moy) writes:
>Hello there
>
>I have recently heard lots of really great Celtic Harp music.  And I am    
>considering learning how to play it.  Could anyone tell me how difficult it is?
>Or how much the harps cost?  Or lessons?  Or if they know anyone who teaches in 
>the Chicagoland area?


Aha! This explains the notes sent to the harp mailing list.

I'll look up the address to Sylvia Woods' harp center in California. She
sells harps, books, and lots of harp-related recordings.




-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Iskandar Taib                          | The only thing worse than Peach ala
Internet: NTAIB@SILVER.UCS.INDIANA.EDU |    Frog is Frog ala Peach
Bitnet:   NTAIB@IUBACS                 !
From: daggs@l42bb.jsc.nasa.gov (Clark)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Need help with pronunciation
Date: 1 Sep 1992 21:43:26 GMT
Organization: nasa-jsc


	Can anyone give me some guidance on Gaelic pronunciation? I am
pretty much ignorant of it. Thanks


												Clark
From: newt@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Michael Steven Newton)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Maeve
Date: 3 Sep 92 07:06:19 GMT
Organization: Glasgow University Computing Science Dept.

stacey@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu (Stacey B. Martin) writes:

>(I hope this one gets posted - sigh). 

>Is the hill or mountain outside Sligo that has the rock mound on top
>the grave of Queen Maeve? 

>Thanks-
>Stacey

  Yes, as legend has it, the large cairn atop the hill is the resting
place of fiery Queen Maeve/Medb.  It has never been excavated, but
would probably yield a Bronze Age tomb.  Unfortunately the youngsters in
the area like taking rocks and forming their names with them for ariel
displays, leading to some degradation of the mound.

  Just below the mountain is one of the largest megalithic "graveyards"
in Ireland, Carrowmore, quite worth a visit if you're into such things...

-- mn
From: mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Eagles Reaches Church of Asatru
Date: 4 Sep 1992 18:10:37 GMT
Organization: N.I.C.E.
Reply-To: mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.128.60

Matthew Huntbach writes:
>My facts about linguistics can be checked in any book about
>comparative linguistics. As for your point on Iberian Celts,

I suggest a look at Mallory's book "In Search of the Indo-Europeans"
& Colin Renfrew's recent articles & books as starters (these 2 somewhat
oppose each other).  Mallory in particular deals with the interrelation-
ships of IE language groups.  

>know little about their language as it was spoken during this
>period since by the time it became written it was already
>confined to the western fringes of Europe....
>There is absolutely no historical or archeological evidence
>however which suggests a close linkage between Celtic and
>Teutonic groups. Check any book on early European history.

This is QUITE wrong, or at best, it could be said that the situation
is ever so much more complicated and obscure than Matthew describes.
I suggest a _careful_ reading of Tacitus' Germania & some of Julius
Caesar about Gaul, & compare that to what some Celticist would say
about what is known about the people of N Europe at that time.  It is
now thot that the Romans had a lot of trouble distinguishing the
Celtic tribes from the German tribes -- perhaps that's because the
German & Celtic tribes of that time _were_ very close culturally, or
because some Celtic-speaking tribes were "culturally German" & some
German tribes "culturally Celtic" or because they mixed in alliances
(eg the Belgae which have drifted back & forth across these boundaries
depending on who you read & the latest archaeological info).  Or maybe
the Romans were stupid or had some other agenda. The Teutons (that is
the particular tribe by that name), for example, are now often thot to
have been a Celtic tribe.  Nora Chadwick claims the Germans as a whole
were a division of the Celtic people ("The Celts", Nora Chadwick, in
ch 2, pub 1971).  I don't know what people think of that today, & she
does lob it off without any expansion.

Maybe it would be more helpful to say that there are at least 2 ways
to define the "Celt" of 2000+ yrs ago:  a language group, & a cultural
group (Halstatt & La Tene).  These sets intersect but there appear
to be cases that rule out one being a proper subset of the other.
Of course access to information about language is difficult & indirect
because so little Celtic language was written down (or survived)
until post Roman times but there is some, & there is Occam's Razor.
From: morna@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Morna J Findlay)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Birthday bumps
Date: 26 Aug 92 10:38:41 GMT
Reply-To: morna@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Morna J Findlay)
Organization: Laboratory for the Foundations of Computer Science, Edinburgh U

In article <42301@skye.dcs.ed.ac.uk> mic@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Murray Cole) writes:
>In article <1992Aug26.002041.17665@microsoft.com> georgere@microsoft.com (George V. Reilly) writes:
>>When I was growing up in Dublin, we had a rather ugly custom of
>>giving somebody the "bumps" on their birthday.
>>Does this happen anywhere else? 
>
>Certainly used to happen in deepest Fife, just as you reported. Hardier
>victims were just dropped for the last "bump".
>

In Barrhead, the entire class would chase you round the playground
giving you X thumps on the back. This was known as "the Dumps".


M
--
Morna Findlay 					JANET:morna@uk.ac.ed.dcs 
	Thanksgiving For a National Victory (Robert Burns)
Ye hypocrites! are these your pranks? To murder men and give God thanks?
Desist, for shame! Proceed no further: God won't accept your thanks for murther.
Xref: sparky soc.culture.celtic:5671 rec.music.folk:5893
From: dahe@ely.cl.cam.ac.uk (David Elworthy)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,rec.music.folk
Subject: Re: Andy Irvine, Dougie Maclean
Date: 28 Aug 92 11:13:50 GMT
Reply-To: dahe@ely.cl.cam.ac.uk (David Elworthy)
Organization: U of Cambridge Computer Lab, UK

In article <1992Aug28.021840.14380@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>,
int272y@lindblat.cc.monash.edu.au (Andrew Doig) writes:
|> Are these two seen (heard) much around the uk?

Dunno about Dougie Maclean, but Andy Irvine has certainly been around:
he played at the Sidmouth festival in August, and the Cambridge Folk
Club in July. 

|> What are the good venues for such stuff?

I'm not sure this is an answerable question: it depends what constitutes
"such stuff", and where in the country you are. You could start by
buying Folk Roots which has listings of festivals and major gigs (and
some less major ones too), and usually has adverts from some folk clubs
around the country.

|> Andrew Doig      int272y@lindblat.cc.monash.edu.au
<| David Elworthy
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: oconnell@vms.macc.wisc.edu (Kevin Patrick O'Connell)
Subject: Re: Irish Times subscription info--got any??
Organization:  University of Wisconsin Academic Computing Center
Date:  2 SEP 92 21:47:18    

In article <1992Sep2.225934.18074@cabell.vcu.edu>, dresler@cabell.vcu.edu (Dan Resler) writes...

>oconnell@vms.macc.wisc.edu (Kevin Patrick O'Connell) writes:
> 
>>Are there well-loved columnists in the Irish Times (or other 
>>publications?  
> 
>yes
> 
>Dan Resler
>Virginia Commonwealth University
> 

Jeepers, Dan.  Obviously, there are well-loved (or at least 
controversial) writers at most large papers.  Who are they?  What do 
they like to flame about?  My reason in writing the query was not to 
ask whether such folks exist, but to encourage a discussion of them 
and their work (one purpose for the existance of this board, among 
others!).

so, out with it.  At the very least, it will help me to know what 
paper to subscribe to.

ALSO:  What magazines, if any are published in Ireland?  Is there a 
Time/Newsweek/MacLeans/Economist type periodical?  Is there such a 
thing as Irish smut?  Farmers' almanacs?  Finance magazines?  
Scientific Irishman?  

Kevin
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: georgere@microsoft.com (George V. Reilly)
Subject: Birthday bumps
Date: 26 Aug 92 00:20:41 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

When I was growing up in Dublin, we had a rather ugly custom of
giving somebody the "bumps" on their birthday.  You get three
or four people (or more if the victim is particularly heavy or
unwilling) to grap the celebrant's arms and legs, heave him
into the air, and then bump his backside into the floor. 
Repeat once for each year and once for luck.

Does this happen anywhere else?  I'm not even sure if it
happens elsewhere in Ireland.

What is the origin of this custom?  A friend I just told
about this said he couldn't help but wonder at some strange
pagan/pre-Christian derivation.
________________
George V. Reilly   <GeorgeRe@Microsoft.Com>
Xref: sparky soc.culture.celtic:5749 alt.pagan:8725
From: pkammer@alesia.ics.uci.edu (Peter Kammer)
Subject: Re: free lionfood! (was: Celtic Cross)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,alt.pagan
Organization: UC Irvine Department of ICS
Date: 3 Sep 92 07:29:02 GMT

I've been "lurking" on this one for a while and thought I'd add 2 cents or so.

	Christians have never claimed to be originators of the cross as a
symbol.  It obviously goes way back (at least to Egypt and I imagine well
before).

	The Celtic Cross is pretty well accepted as a valid Christian symbol,
at the very least by Catholics.  The common christian interpretation of the
circle is a representation of the eternal nature of God.   I haven't
personally heard if there's a christian meaning attached to it being
quartered by the cross.

        On the derivation of Christian symbols/holidays from "pagan" sources:
IMHO some of the more successful christian missionary efforts have
been with the understanding that you couldn't (and shouldn't) strip away a
people's culture in the name of conversion.  This is likely to mean
incorporating holidays and symbols that previously held other meanings.
This continues today.  There are Catholics in New Guinea who worship with
a very different cultural flavor then members of the same religion elsewhere.

	Oh BTW, one extra note.  The inverted cross _can_ be a christian
symbol, under the name of "The Cross of Peter."  Peter didn't consider himself
worthy to die in the same manner as Christ.  Tradition is they accomodated
him by hanging him upside down.

	(ok, maybe more than 2 cents)

						pjk


--
Peter Kammer
ICS Grad. Student              pkammer@ics.uci.edu
Univ. of California, Irvine    203peter@vax.stmarytx.edu
From: gln@cs.arizona.edu (Gary L. Newell)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: close
Date: 27 Aug 92 20:28:16 GMT
Organization: U of Arizona CS Dept, Tucson

In article <1992Aug27.094518.26038@gdr.bath.ac.uk>, ccsdgdc@gdr.bath.ac.uk (Douglas Clark) writes:
> 'The Green Flag' by Robert Kee is published in three volumes by Penguin.
> I think it an excellent history of Ireland laying bare the bones of
> the Troubles.

 Now I'm confused. Is this the same "The Green Flag" which was released
years ago? At the time I read it, it was a very thick single edition. Has
it been re-released in the 3 volume form? If so was it updated? I
asked a local book store about getting the book a couple years back and
was told it was out of print at the time - I assume this was bullshit
or was it perhaps not available in the US (I've had this happen
to me with respect to books dealing with Jack the Ripper - 
available in Britain but not directly in the US). Thanks,


				gln

> -- 
> Douglas Clark                                  Voice : +44 225 826039
> Regional Services,                       JANET : D.G.D.Clark@uk.ac.bath
> Bath University Computing Services, UUCP : ...uunet!mcsun!uknet!gdr!D.G.D.Clark
> Bath, Avon, England BA2 7AY    ARPA : D.G.D.Clark%bath.ac.uk@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk
From: byardd@ul.ie
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: RE: Irish Times subs - more info
Date: 4 Sep 92 14:15:57 GMT
Organization: University of Limerick, Ireland

The Irish Times    (mon through to sat)
13 D'Olier Street,
Dublin 2.           tel  01-6792022
			Int tel  +353-1-679-2022

The Sunday Tribune  (sun only)
15 Lower Baggot Street,
Dublin 2.		tel  01-615555
			int tel  +353-1-615-555

Pheonix Magazine    (bi monthly)
44 Lower Baggot Street,
Dublin 2.

Annual subscriptions to Pheonix are :-
	Ireland		IEP 20
	UK		GBP 20
	Europe Airmail  IEP 31
	Elsewhere Airmail  IEP 46
From: mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Celtic Cross
Date: 4 Sep 1992 18:27:32 GMT
Organization: N.I.C.E.
Reply-To: mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.128.60

Matthew Huntbach writes:
#>>        True that some believe that the trinity concept
#>>        was added to appeal to the celtic peoples because

#>>        of three, and that the promotion of Mary in the
#>>        church was added to appeal to the celts who always

#>style celticry everywhere. Most of the debates which defined
#>the position of the Trinity took place at the other side of the
#>Roman Empire from where the Celts were. Do you really suppose
#>that people in Egypt, Syria and Turkey would have indulged in

I think this is rite about the trinity -- IF a non-supernatural
origin is ascribed to it, an influence from some place like
Ptolemaic Egypt is most often mentioned as its source.

What about Mariolatry, tho?  It doesn't seem that important
in the east, tho there are certainly pagan precedents for her.
It's in Northern France where all the hoopla really took
place in the middle ages, all the cathedrals named Notre Dame.
If its origin is France, then it could have some Celtic
influence or origin.  Certainly Mariolatry is a big feature
of modern Irish culture, yes?
From: mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Eagles Reaches Church of Asatru
Date: 3 Sep 92 11:47:00 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London, UK.

From: vlaad@brewich.hou.tx.us (Vlaad Thunarsson)
>I posted the long message a couple back about our organization as, if one
>looks back far enough, all Celts are of Teutonic lineage.  As this is an
>organization which deals with the ancient Teutonic culture, I thought it
>was good material and food for thought for a lot of you.

Absolute nonsense. The Teutonic langauges are one branch of
Indo-European, the Celtic another, but they are no closer
related than any other two branches of Indo-European. In fact
the Celtic languages are rather more closely related to the
Romance languages than they are to the Teutonic languages. You
would be more correct to say "if you look back far enough, all
Celts are of Latin lineage", but this would not fit in with
silly romantic swords-and-sorcery celticry.

Matthew Huntbach
From: rm4@st-andrews.ac.uk (Rosa Michaelson)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Celtic recordings
Date: 1 Sep 92 15:00:31 GMT
Organization: St. Andrews University


Once more I take up teh keyboard to defend Celtic Music from the idea
that if-its-celtic-it-must-be-irish...Only Jimmy Shand's Band as a the sole
Scottish representative in your admittidly good list!
AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How about the following - the Wallochmor Ceilidh Band, the Vale of Athol
Pipe band, Piproch MacKenzie, Angus Cameron, Runrig, Capercaillie, The Easy
Club, Tannahill Weavers, the Boys of the Lough(well maybe), Rua, Mallin Head,
The Gaugers, Whistlebinkies, Jock Tamosns Bairns, The Occaisonals, The Bill
Black dance Band, All Fiddle and Strathspey orchestras, Billy McGuire, Carmen
higgens, lizzie Higgens, Jeanie Robertson, The stuarts of Blair, jean redpath,
The Iron Horse, Jimmy Shand Juniors Band, Ben Wyvis and the last resort, 
Dougie MacLean, Hamish Moore, Dick Gaughin, Clan Alba, 5 Hand Reel, Alba,
The Cameron men, Blow'na Gael, The Clarsach Society, Polkemmet Gourod pipe Band,
the Mabel meldrums, Tonight at noon, Ian Mackintosh, Tapseltierrie, The Corries,
etc, etc, etc,..and I haven't mentioned the bands I paly in either....
Xref: sparky soc.culture.celtic:5693 alt.pagan:8566
From: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,alt.pagan
Subject: free lionfood! (was: Celtic Cross)
Date: 31 Aug 92 16:33:05 GMT
Reply-To: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Organization: COMANDOS Project, Glesga Yoonie

esh2@po.CWRU.Edu (Evelyn S. Hlabse) wrote in soc.culture.celtic:
> On soc.culture.british someone is asking about the Celtic Cross and if
> it is pagan or religious.  I posted an answer that it was religious.

It's not often you see a Christian with a KICK ME sign quite so prominently
displayed, is it?

(Yes, Evelyn, it is religious, and in Europe the religion in question is
the worship of the Unconquerable Sun; it predates The Thing That Dripped
Blood by a few thousand years).

-- 
--  Jack Campin    room G092, Computing Science Department, Glasgow University,
17 Lilybank Gardens, Glasgow G12 8RZ, Scotland   TEL: 041 339 8855 x6854 (work)
INTERNET: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk or via nsfnet-relay.ac.uk    FAX: 041 330 4913
BANG!net: via mcsun and uknet     BITNET: via UKACRL    UUCP: jack@glasgow.uucp
From: mark@cs.hw.ac.uk (Mark Riordan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Troubles claim 3,000 victim in NI
Date: 1 Sep 92 09:48:04 GMT
Organization: Dept of Computing & Electrical Engineering, Heriot-Watt University, Scotland

In article <CC.92Aug31130014@arran.dcs.ed.ac.uk> cc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Chris Cooke) writes:
>In article <1992Aug28.134941.14127@news.nd.edu> ulick@chopin.helios.nd.edu (Ulick Stafford) writes:
>
>   Seriously, though.  What is an 'other', and how do they separate the 
>   civilian from the paramilitary figures? 
>
>At a guess, the paramilitary & military groups would make allegations/claims
>about the dead person's membership of a particular organisation.  As for the
>"others", I'd imagine that Northern Ireland has a few Jews, Muslims, Hindus,
>Sikhs, and even atheists.
>--

In an incident in europe which claimed the lives of an RAF officer and
his very young daughter, their names sounded very asian so I guess these
people may be part of the 2%. 

-- 
| JANET:    mark@uk.ac.hw.cs   Mark Riordan,                                 |
| Internet: mark@cs.hw.ac.uk   Dept of Computing and Electrical Engineering, |
| (031) 449-5111 x4172         Heriot-Watt University, Edinburgh, Scotland.  |
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,sci.physics,sci.misc