HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 15:06:42 CDT
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Heaven,
              29 Sep 1992 16:00:33 -0400 from <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>

Dear Eric & Stephen ;

From what I've seen of Romans and James, it seems that "Faith JUSTIFIES
the man and WORKS VARIFIES the faith (as the real McCoy).



Jesse Carnes
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: iain@ee.ryerson.ca (Iain Campbell)
Subject: Re: Why Did Jesus Die?
Organization: Ryerson Polytechnical Institute, Toronto
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 14:07:22 GMT

In article <24SEP92.08542232.0024.MUSIC@DCCCDBIT> YST1@DCCCDBIT.BITNET (Yvette Traylor) writes:
>>  (is it possible that Adam and Eve were in fact mortal                ortal
>> and capable of physical death *before* the fall?)
>>
>I don't recall the Bible saying that they were not mortals. I
>believe that as long as they ate the fruit of the "Tree of Life" they
>would continue to live.

Sounds good to me, Yvette; it's certainly consistent with anything I've 
ever been taught ...

Iain
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 07:04:59 CDT
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: That P' word again
              5 Oct 1992 20:32:28 -0500 from <BKCOBB@LIFE.UAMS.EDU>

Dear Brian ;

It IS both in reality.
Jesus made the statement that HE would not cast anyone would come to Him.
You, I believe, might be assuming that ALL can come to Him.

We are dealing with 2 sides of one coin.  On God's side, HE calls the shots
as to who He will make ABLE to come to Christ.  On our side, Christ receives
anyone whom the Father has made ABLE.
The real question goes back to the first part of the Calvinistic pneumonic,
"T" for "Total Inability." John 6:65 is an example of Jesus saying, " ... No
one can come to me unless my Father has enabled him."



P.S., Brian, I do not mean to be a meanie, but looks as if you have nothin'
but objectiions for this doctrinal issue ... why don't you merely save
yourself the headaches and not address posts like these?

And a thought question : "If a person does not serve a God who is in
control of ALL things, then tell me what are they serving?"


Jesse
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 11:24:28 CST
From:         A16905@ITESO.BITNET
Subject:      Super Book

Hi,

All Tuesdays and Thursdays there is a cartoon show on a local chanel called
Super Book. The Super Book is the Bible and this particular one takes two
kids and a robot to some passages of the OT (Noah, Moses, etc.) The program
is just GREAT !

The song says something like  'You can open it only if you believe in it'
refering to the Super Book.

I find very nice that the Book talks and calls the kids and explains itself.

Our children can watch this stuff !  Praised be the Lord for the people
that use their creativity to do something like this !

Shalom,
Memo.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1992 20:36:59 EST
From:         "PHILLIP A. HALIBURTON" <Z$T@FCCJ.BITNET>
Subject:      PRAYER FOR MY CHURCH AS WE GO TO MIAMI

DEAR CHRISTIA MEMBERS,

                      I WANT TO TELL YOU GUYS ABOUT SOMETHING THAT HAPPENED TO
ME ABOUT THREE WEEKS AGO.  WELL THE TUESDAY AT VISITATION RIGHT AFTER HURRICANE
ANDREW CAME THROUGH MIAMI I TOLD MY PASTOR BROTHER BILL THAT I THOUGHT GOD WAS
TELLING ME THAT HE WANTED ME TO GO TO MIAMI AND HELP REBUILD.  I ALSO TOLD HIM
I WAS READY AND WILLING TO GO BUT I JUST DIDN'T HAVE A WAY TO GET DOWN THERE.
SO I ASKED HIM TO KEEP HIS EARS OPEN.

     THEN THE WENSDAY NIGHT AFTER THAT I REDEDICATED MY LIFE TO CHRIST AND MADE
MY DECISION PUBLIC ABOUT WANTING TO GO TO MIAMI.  WELL THE SUNDAY AFTER THAT.
BROTHER BILL SAID THAT THERE WERE A FEW PEOPLE THAT WERE WANTING TO GO TO MIAMI
AND THAT THEY HAD FOUND AWAY FOR US TO GO.  ANYWAY THERE ARE NOW 11 OR 12
PEOPLE INCLUDING BROTHER BILL AND I THAT ARE GOING THAT I KNOW OF ANYWAY.

     ANYWAY WE HAVE FINALLY SET THE DATES FOR WHEN WE WILL BE GOING.  WE WILL
BE GOING DOWN THERE ON OCT. 9TH AND WILL BE STAYING DOWN THERE TIL THE 11TH OF
OCT.  WE WILL BE GOING DOWN TO HELP THE FLORIDA BAPTIST CONVENTION.  IF YOU GUY
S AND GALS WOULD PLEASE PRAY THAT FOR ALL OF US THAT ARE GOING THAT WE COULD
GET THERE SAFELY AND RETURN FROM THERE SAFELY.  THANK YOU IN THE NAME OF GOD
FOR ALL OF YOUR PRAYERS.

                        YOUR BROTHER IN CHRIST,

                                PHILLIP A. HALIBURTON
From: gjm11@cus.cam.ac.uk (G.J. McCaughan)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Legislating Morality
Date: 28 Sep 92 21:26:25 GMT
Organization: U of Cambridge, England

In article <CHRISTIA%92092709351827@ASUACAD.BITNET> MKLINE%VDH.BITNET@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU writes:

>    Now that sounds good, but IF THAT IS TRUE, then when they walk out
>behind those closed doors, why do they demand MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS and
>now BILLIONS of taxpayers PUBLIC dollars for AIDS research? For sexually
>transmitted disease research? Why does Planned Parenthood ask for
>MILLIONS of PUBLIC funds for abortion and condoms and everything else, IF
>the government has no say so to what happens behind closed doors?

Are you suggesting that there should be no AIDS research, that there should
be no research on other sexually-transmittable diseases?

Assuming the answer is "no" (could a Christian really be so cruel as to
answer "yes"??), I don't really see your point. There would still be plenty
of sexually-transmittable diseases even if all sex was illegal except within
Christian marriages. Because you can't legislate immorality out of existence,
you see.

Perhaps the attitude that "it's not our business" makes for more promiscuity.
I do not believe for an instant that without it there would be no sexually
transmitted diseases. There have been times when the attitude to sex has been
very strict but syphilis (for instance) has been very common. What made the
difference? -- why is there now much less syphilis? -- The advance of medical
expertise, that's what.

Perhaps you feel that it's not fair for "our" resources -- our time, money,
whatever -- to be used to help people escape the consequences of their sins.
If that is so, I hope you are careful not to send aid to Third World countries
where famine is caused by war, and careful not to let sinners hear the Gospel.
Does that sound ludicrous? It's no more ludicrous than the idea that we should
not be content to have our money spent on AIDS research.

Or perhaps I've missed your point. I rather hope I have. If so, please state
it again, more clearly, so that I can't miss it again. Thanks.
(I shall be away for a few days, but will catch up on CHRISTIA when I return.)
-- 
Gareth McCaughan     Dept. of Pure Mathematics & Mathematical Statistics,
gjm11@cus.cam.ac.uk  Cambridge University, England.    [Research student]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
Subject: Re: Heaven,
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 16:08:06 GMT

In article <1992Sep28.115827.24756@aber.ac.uk> spk@aber.ac.uk (Stephen Peter Kingston) writes:
>Steve Creps wrote:
>|> ...  Again, James is good reading for the Catholic understanding
>|> of the relationship between faith and works (i.e. it says we are not
>|> justified by faith alone).
>
>I disagree.  I believe that James believed firmly in that great doctrine of 
>justification by faith alone. Look at James 2:23 where he says:
>
>"the scripture was fulfilled which said Abraham believed God and it was credited
>to him as righteousness."

   What about James 2:24 then, which says, "You see that a person is
pronounced righteous by his works and not on account of faith alone."

>CHRISTIA library. I can understand that you will see the content of James 
>in a different light to me, but to say that James teaches that we are justified 
>by works (as opposed to faith alone) is not a foregone conclusion.

   Sounds like you think I'm talking about "works alone."  That is not
the case at all.  We are saved by our faith in Christ, but we must
respond to the grace He gives us.  Otherwise our faith is dead (2:26).
Sins are what cut us off from God, whether they be sins of commission,
or sins of omission.

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
From: MKLINE%VDH.BITNET@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Freedom to Choose
Date: 3 Oct 92 21:28:27 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

Subject: Freedom to Choose

    From Letters to the Editor, Richmond Times-Dispatch, 10/03/92

    Background first. Not too long ago, someone squirted lighter fluid or
something through the keyhole of the back door of the one and only
abortion clinic and tried to set fire to it. Damage was minimal and the
clinic was open the next day.

    There was the normal "Oh it had to be those nasty Pro-Life people."
and things like that. A boy friend who's girlfriend refused to carry his
child, or who's girlfriend was sterile, naw. Had to be Pro-Life. Anyhow,
that's pretty much blown over. Then this hit with a new way at looking at
things. See what you think. This is meant to be humorous.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Why Limit Arsonists' 'Freedom to Choose'?

    Personally, I am opposed to the burning of abortion mills. However,
we need to be extremely careful and exercise caution when we condemn
others and try to interfere with their freedom to choose. Let's face it,
it is a difficult matter in deciding whether to destroy an abortion
clinic.

    We shouldn't try to impose our morality on someone else by declaring
that it is morally and ethically wrong to burn an abortion mill. That
strategy will never work.

    Furthermore, how do we know for sure that the abortion mill is
actually a building? It might look like a building, but perhaps it is
just a collection of brinks and concrete - maybe just a "product of
construction."

    With all the problems we have with overcrowding and the increased
cost for maintenance, the motto "every building a wanted building" would
serve us well.

    One last thing: Please don't print those awful, ugly pictures of the
alleged burned abortion mill in your paper - especially those of the
clinic in Richmond that kills an average of more than 6,500 pre-born
babies a year. What will our children think when they see those "graphic"
pictures in your paper? It could be damaging to their young minds.

                                                 Barbara Farnham.
end of article ---------------------------------------------------------

    I know. Quaint, cute, too simply, silly. But just like some of the
other articles on pro-choice, it uses the same arguments. This is not to
re-open the rather painful, "here we go again" arguments. It was just a
cute application of the same ones to something else.

Maks
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Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 11:20:13 EDT
From:         "SHELBY A. CROSS" <LIBSAC@EMUVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Prophetic Dreams;Spiritual Warfare etc

Greetings Bernice in Jesus Name!!

I really enjoyed  your testimony. It's reassuring that  "No weapon formed
against us will  prosper." I have been praising the  Lord these past cou-
ple of days  as I was going  through some trying times. I  found out that
while I forgave  the person who was  trying to upset me  and praising the
Lord, the Lord gave  me an abundance of peace; and  later the person came
and apologized and said that they were sorry.

I  enjoy reading  testimonies because  they are  always uplifting  to me.

Yours in Christ,
Shelby           Atlanta, Georgia
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From: timk@world.std.com (Tim King)
Subject: Re: Why did Christ die?
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1992 05:44:52 GMT

TQX@CORNELLC.BITNET writes:

>    I do not believe that Jesus Christ was killable. I remember reading
>somewhere in the gospels where He said that He had the power to lay to
>lay down His life and then take it up again.

I think you're thinking of John 10:17-18:

 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might
take it again.  No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I
have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This
commandment have I received of my Father.


Certainly, Jesus could have stopped His execution, but the point of the
Gospel is that He didn't! (Mat 26:53-54)  His sacrifice, and it was a
true sacrifice that was consciously made, demonstrates the love we are
to have for one another. (Jn 15:13; 1 Jn 3:16)

So the real question isn't whether or not Jesus could die as a human.
The answer to this is obvious from history:  He could die, and He did die.
The real question is whether He could've prevented His death.  And the
answer is that He certainly could, and He did!  He not only resurrected
Himself, but He remains alive even today. (Rev 1:18)

-TimK
-- 
Tim King                  |  Some of us favor logic in making decisions.
24 Myrtle Street          |  Some, emotions.  I, personally, get very    |\
Dedham, MA 02026          |  emotional about faulty logic! :-)           | >
timk@world.std.com        |                                             <>
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 2 Oct 1992 15:04:00 EST
From:         "DRCV06::GRAHAM" <GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL>
Subject:      Christians and the law.

Dave, it is a good question and you can easily get confused unless you get
a good grounding in Paul's theology.

About what Jesus taught:  Remember, Jesus came to the nation of Israel to
end their being a called people.  He was "born of a woman, born under the
law..."  He made Himself subject to the law, but also proclaimed the new
covenant that was fortold in Jer 33 and Eze 36.

About what you called Paul's letter:  Actually, that was a letter from
James, head of the church in Jerusalem to the believers in Antioch
insisting they keep certain old Jewish customs.  This was an errant act on
James' part and Paul refutes every point of that letter save for the part
about sexual impurity in Romans 14, 1 Cor 8 and Galatians.

What law is then incumbent on the Christian?  The law of love is the only
one.  Paul delineates this in Galatians 5 and 6 and, I think, 2 Tim 3.  The
Law of the Old Testament, the Torah, or pentateuch, is no longer binding
upon any Christian.

The books of Romans and Galatians are Paul's declarations of freedom from
the OT law.  There are many Christians who want the law kept, especially by
others.  There are those who insist, for examplle, that it is necessary to
worship on the seventh day Sabbath, while Paul, clearly in Romans 14, says
that is not so.  Many others insist that the Ten Commandments be the bawsis
for moral behavior.  These commandments were not dissected from the rest of
the law by Paul and exempted.  Does that mean we can kill and steal?  No,
for Paul clearly points out that that is not loving behavior and the saint
will simply not do that.

I am amused at the Christians who want to enforce the 10 so firmly, but
ignore entirely the rest of the Torah law.  for example, do they observe
the clean meat restrictions of Lev 11?  Do they make their wives leave the
house during the tiem of their periods each month?  Do they leave town to
go to the bathroom?  Do they make a person with a skin eruption go to the
priest for examination?  See what I mean?  If a person wants to keep the
law, they'd very well better keep every jot and tiddle.

No, you are free from the "law of handwriting and ordinances that was
against us."  If you are born again, you will know it by the love you have
for the brethren, 1 John 4:10 (approx.).  The law of love is not something
you do, it is what you are if you are Christ's.

Dan Graham
(I think I've exhausted my quasi-quota of Christia posts today, sorry about
that.)
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 1 Oct 1992 11:00:14 EDT
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Christians and dying.
              GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL

On 09/29/92 at 15:08:00 DRCV06::GRAHAM said:


 In John 11, we read of Jesus coming to Bethany after Lazarus' death.  He is
 met by Martha and, among other things, says to her, "If a man believes in
 me, he shall never die, do you believe this?"  Wait a minute!  Before you
 spiritualize it away, think about it.  Could it be that this is the truth
 about Christians, and nobody has ever believed it?  No, I don't think so,
 either, but it is som ething to think about.

Hi Dan

This is a mistake that some people actually believe.  It is appointed for all
men a time to die.  If memory serves me, Christ gave spiritual truths to people
when they were  talking of earthly things.  I think, and it is expressly my own
opinion, that he used this as a means to "awaken" them or impress them  to
think or listen or believe upon him as having God in him.  When people wrap up
in their own lives, fears or concerns, they tend to forget the amazing power
of God.  Woe is me.  Woe is me.  This is our cry when we should remember that
nothing is impossible with God and that even though we see no comfort or reason
or answer, then God is able to work for us an answer or a reason or a comfort.
From: spk@uk.ac.aber (Stephen Kingston)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Limited Atonement
Date: 5 Oct 92 11:58:37 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept., University of Wales at Aberystwyth.

Craig,
  I intended to give you a point by point answer to your message, but 
my system expired it before I got around to it.

  However, in short I would say that you seemed to have answered your 
own questions. You quoted all the major texts regarding the scope of 
the atonement, giving replies to most.

  You seem satisfied that from your reading of scripture the scope of 
the atonement is indeed limited to the elect. As you seem to have 
studied this deeply, and you are willing to submit to scripture then I
shall not try to dissuade you from this view. I merely pray that whoever 
is incorrect on this issue, the Holy Spirit might see fit to open their 
eyes to the truth. (I pray that, regardless of whether it is me or you who 
is incorrect).

I will offer John 3:16 as one of the stronger evidences, in my view, of the 
universal atonement. Also John 1:29 which says:

"... Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world."

However, I understand that you could interpret these passages differently
if you use the "all without distinction" argument.

I also would offer Hebrews 9:28, of which Calvin says:

"He says the sins of many, that is all, as in Romans 5:15. It is yet 
certain that all receive no benefit from the death of christ: but this
happens because their unbelief prevents them."

Also Isaiah 53:12, of which Calvin says:

"He alone bore the punishment of many, because on him was laid the guilt
of the whole world. It is evident from other passages, and especially from
the fifth chapter of the Epistle to the Romans, that `many' sometimes 
denotes all."

I do not expect to convince you with those verses, but I offer them to 
show you my own view.

All the best,
  Stephen
-- 
Gweleis i rac neb nym gweles pop annwyl. ef diwyl yneges. Gweleis i pasc.
(I saw the one above all men,  he saw me;  he, the beloved of his people,
who fulfills his mission. I saw Easter.) "Yspeil Taliesin" ---Taliesin---
spk@uk.ac.aber --- spk%uk.ac.aber@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk --- Stephen Kingston
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Advice needed on "saved since birth"
From: j1w@icf.hrb.com (Doug ('Oscar') Works)
Date: 29 Sep 92 16:45:31 EST
Organization: HRB Systems, Inc.

Ooops.

    Please read the post entitled "REFRESH".  I tried to redraw my screen
and instead gave my post a very fitting title....

                                                       - Doug
 
................................................................................
................................................................................
....    |         "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep,             ....
....  --+--              to gain what he cannot lose."                      ....
....    |                                           - Jim Elliot            ....
....    |                                                                   ....
.......................  Internet: j1w@icf.hrb.com .............................
................................................................................
    J. Douglas Works * HRB Systems, Inc. * State College, PA  16804  USA
From: HENZLEEF@SNYBUFVA.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Prpohetic Dreams, Spiritual Warfare In Dreams
Date: 6 Oct 92 14:10:53 GMT
Organization: from SUNY College at Buffalo, NY 14222
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When we are claimed by Christ, nothing can interfere or harm us -
Thank you for your testimony.  God bless you.  Elaine.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 12:07:21 EDT
From:         Leo W <Leo_W@QM.CIRCA.UFL.EDU>
Subject:      Scripturette 9/30

"In our prayers for you we always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus
Christ" (Colossians 1:3).

"You will joyfully give thanks to the Father.  He has made you able to have all
that he has prepared for his people who live in the light" (Colossians 1:12).

"Everything you say and everything you do should all be done for Jesus your
Lord.  And in all you do, give thanks to God the Father through Jesus"
(Colossians 3:17).

Yours in Christ Jesus,
Leo

Scriptures quoted from the International Children's Bible (ICB), New Century
Version, copyright 1986, 1988 by Word Publishing, Dallas, Texas 75039.  Used by
permission.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1992 12:48:17 EDT
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From:         Angela Zimmerman <AMZIMM01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject:      Is God evil?

Item Retrieval Assistant, DADS
Phone: 588-6757

I just found out about a rather interesting scripture passage.  It's Exodus
32:14 and says (from the King James Bible): "And the Lord repented of the
evil which he thought to do unto his people".

Now wait a minute...God *repented*?  How can a perfect being repent (and
from doing an evil deed, no less)?

Two other translations of the same verse:  first, the NIV translation:
"Then the Lord relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had
threatened".  Second, the New Ocford translation: "And the Lord changed his
mind about the disaster that he planned to bring on his people".

This sounds to me like God isn't so perfect, but fallable just like any
human is.  There's another point to be made with this as well, but it deals
with the "forbidden" topic, so I'll refrain from discussing it publicly.
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Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 08:33:14 PDT
From:         ng910@GVAL1.PNL.GOV
Subject: Re: Security of salvation?

Dear Gareth,

	The doctrine says that you cannot *loose* your salvation - it does
not state that you can not throw it away.

Your Brother in Christ,

Dave Wagle
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