From: sieferme@stein.u.washington.edu (Eric Sieferman)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: THE MIND OF THE BIBLE BELIEVER
Date: 7 Jan 1993 16:42:43 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Distribution: world,public
NNTP-Posting-Host: stein.u.washington.edu

In article <1993Jan6.233359.4894@ra.royalroads.ca> mlee@post.RoyalRoads.ca (Malcolm Lee) writes:
>
>In article <1if3bdINNpjp@shelley.u.washington.edu>, sieferme@stein.u.washington.edu (Eric Sieferman) writes:
>|> In article <1993Jan5.223146.29327@ra.royalroads.ca> mlee@post.RoyalRoads.ca (Malcolm Lee) writes:
>|> >
>|> >But we can have eternal life and the knowledge of good and evil.
>|> 
>|> I already have knowledge of good and evil, but I have never had
>|> a clear explanation what xtians mean by "eternal life", other
>|> than a circular description of "being with god".  If you are
>|> looking for a career in religious salesmanship, try to
>|> offer items of value to prospective customers.
>|> 
>|> >Sure, when God placed the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil in the Garden, HE
>|> >knew that the people would partake of it and be condemned to death as well as 
>|> >all the generations that followed them.  GOD knew this!  
>|> 
>|> According to the tale, God not only knew it, he could have stopped
>|> it, but chose not to.  The resulting death and suffering is on
>|> his hands, or would be if he really existed.
>|> 
>
>God chose not to stop us because God gave us free will.  We chose to disobey.

No, Eve chose to disobey, followed by Adam.  It was God's idea
from the beginning to establish a system of "justice" such that
A&E's action would be interpreted as a suitable excuse for
death and suffering.  A few moments of thought could come up
with a better solution, so it is fair to assume that God wanted
things to turn out the way they did.

Transferring punishment to future generations for A&E's "crime"
has nothing to do with free will.  You belief has no basis 
in the bible, but is just a spin put on the bible by
(mainly) christian theologians.

>God did not create us to be robots.  He has in mind a much higher purpose for us.

We see two types of xtian arguments on this issue in
alt.atheism.  First, the xtian claims to know God's plan or
purpose or whatever.  Then, when the inevitable difficulties
in this postion are demonstrated, the xtian retreats into
the position that knowledge of God is impossible, or incomplete,
and that the xtian has faith that all is working for the best.
The second attitude (well expressed recently by John Muelhaussen)
is at least the more honest one.

>
>|> Fine.  First, he creates imperfect beings and punishes them
>|> for being imperfect.  Then, he arranges to have a Jewish carpenter
>|> executed, and claims that this cancels his original error.
>|> What a jerk!
>|> 
>
>Mankind screwed up!  We are the jerks!  We are the hypocrites.

Have I written anything to indicate that I am a hypocrite?
Jerk, maybe, but not a hypocrite! :)

>The Church is
>full of hypocrites.  The only difference between the people in the Church and
>those outside is that the ones in Church know that they are hypocrites.  That is
>what it means to "be with sin" and that is why, all the more, we need redemption.
>That is why we need Jesus Christ.  Church is not for the saints, it is for the
>sinners.

You still don't get it.  It is God (in your cosmology) who has
decided that "sin" deserves total and eternal torment.  He
set up the system and keeps it going.  Who would want to spend
a quiet dinner with this guy, much less all eternity?

>
>|> >We are living in the age of grace whereby we may be saved IF we
>|> >choose to follow Jesus.
>|> 
>|> I chose to follow Jesus several years ago, so I guess that 
>|> I am saved.  
>|> 
>
>I can't speak for your salvation.  I am not your judge nor am I your
>executioner.  I am a messenger.

There has been no shortage of other posters who were eager
to comment on my salvation.  I bring up my previous "conversion"
to point out that the meaning of salvation, and the means to
achieve it, have been debated by xtians for over 1900 years,
without reaching any agreement.  According to some traditions,
my previous conversion will hold me in good stead after death;
according to other traditions, I am doomed.

And please, please, please, don't tell us that real xtians
know the way to salvation.  Every christian in the world
thinks that he/she is a "true" christian, and that the rest
are slightly misguided or totally in Satan's camp.

>|> 
>|> Before he was hanged, Westley Allen Dodd claimed to have 
>|> accepted Jesus as his savior, so we can assume that he
>|> will have eternal life.  His young victims, murdered at
>|> age 4 or so, never had the chance to accept Jesus,
>|> so they probably don't have eternal life.
>|> 
>
>Our God is a fair and just God.  He would take in account the circumstances of
>those young victims.
>As for Westley A Dodd, I can't speak for his salvation.  
>It is not my place to do so.

First you claim to know the path to salvation (and are willing
to spread it in alt.atheism), but you are unwilling to comment
on specific scenarios.  You are right, there is a lot of
hypocricy in the church!

>|> There is no debate.  You are posting the same old tired 
>|> xtian drivel in alt.atheist, a serious breach of manners.
>|>
>The board I'm posting to here is called talk.religion.misc and I am not aware of
>it going anywhere else.  Any so doing is unintentional.
> 

OK.  Put down you bible for a few moments and learn
how to edit the "newsgroups" line.  :)

(remainder of same old stuff, deleted)
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Newsgroups: alt.atheism