From: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Subject: Re: What can we have for an educational system?
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 16:23:19 GMT

In article <26512@optima.cs.arizona.edu> lal@cs.arizona.edu (The Morning Sun) writes:
>In article <BxrGCs.4tp@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes:


>[stuff deleted]


>>There are several problems, but I have to agree that those students who
>>are not motivated to learn, or are incapable of learning, are not worth
>>spending money on education as distinct from training.  I am not talking
>>about those who do not put in the effort because of boredom, but the 
>>educationists have insisted that those who cannot understand still be
>>advanced.  When I get these students at the university, I cannot teach
>>the subject matter and also teach them to think in the time allotted.

>I completely and absolutely agree with Mr. Rubin.

[stuff about the situation in Singapore deleted.]

>	I believe everyone does not have the right to a University education.
>It is a privelege. It is riduculous how poorly prepared students are in
>mathematics from high school. At chabot college I worked as a tutor, tutoring
>students in first and second year mathematics, physics, and computer science.
>It was shocking how unprepared these students were!! If these students
>are not willing to study in high school, university should be denied to
>them.

Even if it is a right, it should only be a right for those with ability
to try.  

>	I was suprised that with only a pre-University education I was
>able to tutor students for their University courses.
>	I would recommend that Students who do not have proficieny in
>mathematics and english not be allowed to go to University. If they are
>interested perhaps they should have learnt what they are supposed to in 
>high school.

There is a major problem in the US, which is not as bad in most other countries
YET.  Some of them are moving in that direction.  That is that there is no
elementary and secondary curriculum worth anything.  What is covered in a
class is determined far too much by the abilities of those who happened to
be placed in that class, and is also limited by the ability of the teacher.
There are many bright children who have no opportunity to even get a decent
algebra course with emphasis on word problems, or a geometry course which 
gives prominence to proofs and logical arguments.

There are a few universities which will at least attempt to keep out students
without such a background, but a major problem here is even getting the 
information.  A student with straight A's in high school may not know anything
other than rote, and standardized multiple-choice tests are not good, either.

The universities also oppose remediation based on the assumption that the 
student might not know something because it was not taught, regardless of
the credentials, and teach those courses on the assumption that the student
was not good enough to have learned it when it was taught.

			..................

>	I would like to say more about the high school program, but my
>knowledge of the American High School is restricted to what I have learnt
>from tutoring kids at College. I think part of the problem is the fact
>that it is so easy to get into university in USA, even if you don't
>learn your high school maths and english you can still enter University
>and catch up during your first year in University.	

You can catch up with more rote and manipulation, but the high schools do
not teach thinking, and the universities seem unwilling to realize that
the deficiencies of the students are more due to 12 years of dumbing than
to lack of ability.  I do not know how hard it will be to correct this,
but even the geniuses might have trouble overcoming it if nothing is done.
-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@snap.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!snap.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
Newsgroups: sci.math,comp.edu