HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gld@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gary L Dare)
Subject: Re: The future of medicine
Reply-To: gld@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Gary L Dare)
Organization: The Bates Motel
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 05:30:20 GMT

thf2@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>
>I saw a stat somewhere that said a certain county in New Jersey has more
>MRI's than all of Canada.  Canada may have too few MRI's, but it's certain
>that this county has too many.

Also,keep in mind the population differences ... Canada has 2/3rd the
population of California and distributed sparsely once you leave the
Toronto/Montreal axis.  Bergen County, N.J., would be one of Canada's
largest provinces by population.

gld
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Je me souviens ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gary L. Dare
> gld@cunixb.cc.columbia.EDU 		President Bush should
> gld@cunixc.BITNET			pardon Amy Fisher NOW!
Xref: sparky talk.politics.medicine:497 alt.politics.homosexuality:9051
From: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: APA and Homosexuality
Date: 6 Jan 93 18:25:20 GMT
Reply-To: weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Followup-To: talk.politics.medicine
Organization: The Wistar Institute of Anatomy and Biology
In-reply-to: starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr)

In article <1993Jan6.015522.2338@genie.slhs.udel.edu>, starr@genie (Tim Starr) writes:
>I do know that the book of Leviticus contains condemnations and
>proscriptions of homosexuality, as well as those who eat oysters.

>Not that I consider either school of thought correct!

I for one think oyster eating is maximally disgusting.
-- 
-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine
From: starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr)
Subject: Re: APA and Homosexuality
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 08:18:28 GMT

In article <103846@netnews.upenn.edu> weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener) writes:
}In article <1993Jan6.015522.2338@genie.slhs.udel.edu>, starr@genie (Tim Starr) writes:
}>I do know that the book of Leviticus contains condemnations and
}>proscriptions of homosexuality, as well as those who eat oysters.
}
}>Not that I consider either school of thought correct!
}
}I for one think oyster eating is maximally disgusting.

It's a taste I've failed to acquire, too, but you won't catch me supporting
oyster prohibition :-)!

Tim Starr - Renaissance Now! - Think Universally, Act Selfishly
starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu

"True greatness consists in the use of a powerful understanding to enlighten
oneself and others." - Francois Marie Arouet Voltaire
Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Re: The future of medicine
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 04:55:23 GMT

In article <1993Jan11.024553.16510@netcom.com> tjm@netcom.com (Thomas J. Merritt) writes:
>I have to agree with you on this one.  The primary interest of the AMA
>is increasing its own power by increasing the number of physicians and
                                ^^^^^^^^^^
>the amount of their incomes.  This flies in the face of curbing health
>care costs and maximizing patient care.  

Just a minor nit -- you probably meant "decreasing."  If we had more
physicians, there might be some competition, which would reduce the
cost of health care.

>Medical economics are a tricky thing and I do not claim to be an expert.
>But it is interesting to at the costs of MRI in the USA versus other 
>countries.  In locations where the use of MRI is rationed because the
>need outstripes the capacity MRI utilization is high the cost is one
>seventh that in the USA.  MRI utilization in the USA is about one seventh
>our capacity.  What this suggests is that 85% of the cost of an MRI
>in the USA is tied up in providing excess capacity.  What we get for
>this 85% of the cost is easy access to MRI's in this country.  Conceptually
>I like being able to have near immediate access to an MRI should I need
>one the other hand I'm not sure that I'm willing to pay the cost.

I saw a stat somewhere that said a certain county in New Jersey has more
MRI's than all of Canada.  Canada may have too few MRI's, but it's certain
that this county has too many.
-- 
ted frank                     | thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu 
standard disclaimers          | void where prohibited
the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637
never shout movie in a crowded firestation
Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine
From: starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr)
Subject: Re: AIDS risk/Duesberg
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 01:36:51 GMT

In article <-tsrq8b@lynx.unm.edu> bhjelle@carina.unm.edu () writes:
}The 3 back-to-back Science papers by Gallo's lab in 1984 proved
}that HIV causes AIDS.

I thought they'd been discredited.

Tim Starr - Renaissance Now! - Think Universally, Act Selfishly
starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu

"True greatness consists in the use of a powerful understanding to enlighten
oneself and others." - Francois Marie Arouet Voltaire
From: dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine
Subject: Breast Implant Info Needed
Date: 4 Jan 93 23:37:44 EST
Organization: University of Toledo, Computer Services

HELP!

I am a third year law student working on a seminar paper involving
purely elective cosmetic surgery, specifically as it applies to
devices implanted within the human body, and how strict liability should be
applied to the physicians who perform such procedures.

Yes, this is focusing on breast implants.

In Ohio, physicians, and other providers of professional services, are exempt 
by statute from strict liabilty, unlike other people who sell items. (If the 
jewler sold you a watch, strict liability woul apply if you were hurt by the
watch. If the doctor sells you implants, and puts 'em in you, he or she is not
held to strict liability.

While this may be a rational result for an experimental heart where someone
is going to die without it, I don't think the same protection should
be afforded people who are doing little more of a needed service than
yor local tatoo artist.

Please note, where the surgery and implants are to correct a situation caused
by injury or disease, or LEGITIMATE birth defect (small cups don't count), I
am arguing the law should remain the same.

However, what I need are hard citable statistics on breast implants, how many
such operations have been done, the reasons, the percentage of complications,
etc, etc...

PLEASE HELP!

If you have any information I might be able to use, please drop me a line.

Thanks,

Darrell M. Crosgrove
U. of Toledo College of Law

DCROSGR@UofT02.utoledo.edu


PS. My deadline is this Friday.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine
From: starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr)
Subject: Re: AIDS risk/Duesberg
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 01:13:50 GMT

In article <103738@netnews.upenn.edu> weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener) writes:
}
}I looked this one up.  R-B's paper is _not_ a report on HIV- AIDS cases.
}It's a rather poor rehash of Duesberg's arguments plus some rather weak
}medical arguments applied to badly out of date data.  Along the way, he
}mentions, that AIDS has been documented going back 100 years (something
}he desperately needs to be true if there's any hope in blaming behavior),
}although the only documentation he mentions refers to cases going back
}to the 50s.  Dr Root-Bernstein seems to be oblivious to the fact that
}two of the most famous ones--the Manchester sailor and the black gay
}teenager--were confirmed HIV+.

Since HIV couldn't even be detected in the 50s, I'm curious to know how any
patient of that decade was confirmed as having it.  Will you please inform
me?

Tim Starr - Renaissance Now! - Think Universally, Act Selfishly
starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu

"True greatness consists in the use of a powerful understanding to enlighten
oneself and others." - Francois Marie Arouet Voltaire
Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine,misc.legal
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Re: The future of medicine
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 05:59:54 GMT

In article <1993Jan9.230923.3060@cnsvax.uwec.edu> nyeda@cnsvax.uwec.edu (David Nye) writes:
>Regarding the latter, the cost of malpractice insurance, while not
>negligible, is nothing compared to the cost of practicing defensive
>medicine, estimated to be 40% of the cost of all diagnostic studies.
>Physicians who engage in this are not going to stop just because of
>award caps.  They will need to believe that if they practice good
>quality medicine they are not going to get hauled into court.

Of course, when they practice bad medicine, they don't get hauled into
court either.  More than two-thirds of all actual malpractice never
gets sued.  

As for defensive medicine, insurance companies could have it stopped
tomorrow if they so chose.

>There are two ways to do this.  The first and less desirable is for us
>to adopt practice parameters for treatment of all diseases, such that a
>physician who "goes by the book" is invulnerable to malpractice.  The
>second is for medical malpractice litigation to be eliminated, with
>quality control maintained by professional societies, not the courts.  I
>won't hold my breath waiting for this to happen, though.

Indeed, it's the AMA that's the greatest bar to quality control at the
moment.  There are doctors out there with malpractice rates an order of
magnitude or so higher than average -- just try and find out which ones
those are.
-- 
ted frank                     | thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu 
standard disclaimers          | void where prohibited
the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637
never shout movie in a crowded firestation
Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr)
Subject: Re: APA and Homosexuality
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 01:55:22 GMT

In article <1992Dec30.203205.29126@midway.uchicago.edu> thf2@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
}>    You have committed the logical fallacy of irrelevant conclusion.
}>    Please provide evidence that the original APA judgement that homosexuality 
}>is psy. illness is _based_ on Christianity. 
}
}Please provide evidence that the APA judgments were based on *anything*.

I've just read through part of the beginning of Posner's Sex and Reason, and
he claims that both Christianity and Freudian psychiatry took monogamous,
heterosexual sex within marriage to be the standard for sexual orientation.
I do know that the book of Leviticus contains condemnations and proscriptions
of homosexuality, as well as those who eat oysters.

Not that I consider either school of thought correct!

Tim Starr - Renaissance Now! - Think Universally, Act Selfishly
starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu

"True greatness consists in the use of a powerful understanding to enlighten
oneself and others." - Francois Marie Arouet Voltaire
From: bhjelle@carina.unm.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine
Subject: Re: AIDS risk/Duesberg
Date: 5 Jan 93 15:13:29 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

In article <1993Jan5.030659.11086@sci.ccny.cuny.edu> dac@sci.ccny.cuny.edu (David A Cooke) writes:
>>
>>Ah, but has anyone wiht AIDS ben HIV negative?? That would shoot all the
>>theories full of holes.
>
>	Yes, there have been a few individuals with AIDS who have been
>HIV-.  Several cases of this were brought up at the last international
>conference on AIDS.  This doesn't really support the arguments of those
>who argue that HIV doesn not cause AIDS, however.  Most tests for AIDS
>are indirect, and given the AIDS virus' obscenely high mutation rate,
>it wouldn't be at all improbable that it will periodically mutate
>sufficiently that it won't show up on the standard tests.  There are
>already two recognized variants of HIV, HIV-1 and HIV-2, and they
>require different tests to be detected as far as I know.  These HIV-
>AIDS patients are probably examples of this sort of phenomenon, given
>that new strains develop within a single individual.

This is a misconception. The overwhelming evidence in existing cases
of idiopathic T-cell lymphocytopenia (ICL, or "HIV-negative AIDS")
would indicate that (1) no form of HIV is involved; (2) it is
highly doubtful that a virus is involved; and (3) it is very
unlikely that the patients are suffering from AIDS, as opposed
to a poorly-understood other form of immunodeficiency.

I don't have time to go through the entire rationale for the
above statements, but suffice it to say that neither the epidemiology
nor the virology support more than an extremely superficial relation-
ship between ICL and AIDS.

>	Another possibility is that there are one or more other viruses
>that cause AIDS-type problems that are not HIV that have been around
>for a long time but were never recognized.  It is not inconceivable
>that there could be other viruses with similar end results.  This is
>true for many diseases--pneumonia, for example, can be causes by at

Again, possible. But utterly no convincing evidence has come forth that
ICL is contagious or associated with any particular virus.

>people.  Indeed, I have heard that the epidemiology and symptomology of
>some of these HIV- AIDS patients is somewhat different, and that they don't
i                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>seem to be particularly contagious, which could point to other minor
>viruses giving AIDS-like effects.

Try "completely different" as in "no relationship".

The existence of ICL has utterly no bearing whatsoever on the
HIV-AIDS link.

Brian
Xref: sparky talk.politics.medicine:478 sci.skeptic:22027
From: geb@cs.pitt.edu (Gordon Banks)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: AIDS risk/Duesberg
Date: 5 Jan 93 18:03:03 GMT
Reply-To: geb@cs.pitt.edu (Gordon Banks)
Followup-To: talk.politics.medicine
Organization: Univ. of Pittsburgh Computer Science

In article <1992Dec23.064508.12019@genie.slhs.udel.edu> starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr) writes:
>In article <1992Dec23.005116.29281@midway.uchicago.edu> thf2@midway.uch
>}
>}Of course this alternative theory doesn't explain why hemophiliacs and
>}infants and blood transfusion recipients get AIDS.  Or why it's so
>}prevalent in Africa.  My first guess would be to reject Duesberg's
>}theory as having less explanatory power than the current theory.
>
>Blood transfusions in themselves are immunosuppressive, as is malnutrition.
>

But hemophiliacs got transfusions for many years before AIDS and never
got it.  They get transfusions now and don't get it.  What is the difference?
We now don't give them blood from HIV+ donors.  Anyone who doesn't
admit the connection between HIV and AIDS needs to join the flat
earth society.
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Banks  N3JXP      | "I have given you an argument; I am not obliged
geb@cadre.dsl.pitt.edu   |  to supply you with an understanding." -S.Johnson
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine
From: starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr)
Subject: Re: AIDS risk/Duesberg
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 08:15:29 GMT

In article <mbzr-tl@lynx.unm.edu> bhjelle@carina.unm.edu writes:
}In article <1993Jan7.080346.5725@genie.slhs.udel.edu> starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr) writes:
}>}>
}>
}>
}>}>have been predictions that they'd start contracting AIDS in droves, but
}>}>this hasn't happened, leading Gallo of NIH to extend the "dormancy" period
}>}>to between 12 and 30 years.
}>}
}>}Gallo has said no such thing. Furthermore, making estimates like
}>}that would be far removed from Gallo's scientific interests.
}>
}>I'm sorry, but he has said such things, and I have the references to prove it
}>if necessary.  The remove from his scientific interests is beyond me to
}>judge - hell, figuring out that his scientific interests are is beyond me!
}>
}>
}They are not hard to judge if you actually read his papers.
}I will summarize them here: basic science of HIV and other
}viruses; basic science of carcinogenesis, such as Kaposi's
}sarcoma. I would like to see your reference to the 12-30 year
}quote. 12 years is not far removed from the usual latency
}estimates, but 30 years is  *way*  off.

I'll see if I can find it among my papers.  I agree that it is way off.

Tim Starr - Renaissance Now! - Think Universally, Act Selfishly
starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu

"True greatness consists in the use of a powerful understanding to enlighten
oneself and others." - Francois Marie Arouet Voltaire
From: nyeda@cnsvax.uwec.edu (David Nye)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine
Subject: The future of medicine
Date: 9 Jan 93 23:09:23 -0600
Organization: University of Wisconsin Eau Claire

 
I'm very ambivalent about the future of medicine.  On the one hand, it
doesn't seem right that we are now spending 14% of the GNP on health
care to which many have no access.  On the other, I don't like the look
of the changes proposed to fix the system.  I don't think Clinton's ideas
will do much to curb costs but they will probably do a lot to make us
health care providers miserable.  I should mention that I did vote for
the guy and I consider myself a liberal.  When the inevitable rationing
begins, we are going to have many dissatisfied customers.  The folks in
Washington seem to be fixing it so we will be the fall guys.
 
The biggest problem with any proposed legislative solution is that
lawmakers don't have the guts to cut the parasites out of the health
care system, those who profit by but don't contribute to health care:
insurance companies and lawyers.  To cut out the former, we need to go
to a single payer system with electronic claim submission simple enough
that a solo physician doesn't need a full time insurance clerk.
 
Regarding the latter, the cost of malpractice insurance, while not
negligible, is nothing compared to the cost of practicing defensive
medicine, estimated to be 40% of the cost of all diagnostic studies.
Physicians who engage in this are not going to stop just because of
award caps.  They will need to believe that if they practice good
quality medicine they are not going to get hauled into court.
 
There are two ways to do this.  The first and less desirable is for us
to adopt practice parameters for treatment of all diseases, such that a
physician who "goes by the book" is invulnerable to malpractice.  The
second is for medical malpractice litigation to be eliminated, with
quality control maintained by professional societies, not the courts.  I
won't hold my breath waiting for this to happen, though.
 
I think we need much more public discourse about this issue.  People
need to know what the options are and how much they will cost, how the
pie gets cut up and who does the cutting.  They need to be part of the
decision about the course of health care reform.  As it stands, the
decisions will made by bureaucrats under the influence of lobbyists for
all the wrong reasons.

David Nye
nyeda@cnsvax.uwec.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine
From: dmcanzi@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca (David Canzi)
Subject: Re: AIDS risk/Duesberg
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 01:44:37 GMT

In article <1993Jan7.080346.5725@genie.slhs.udel.edu> starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr) writes:
)In article <lryrz1q@lynx.unm.edu> bhjelle@carina.unm.edu writes:
)}In article <1993Jan6.012008.1059@genie.slhs.udel.edu> starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr) writes:
)}>In article <1993Jan5.030659.11086@sci.ccny.cuny.edu> dac@sci.ccny.cuny.edu (David A Cooke) writes:
)}>}are indirect, and given the AIDS virus' obscenely high mutation rate,
)}>}it wouldn't be at all improbable that it will periodically mutate
)}>}sufficiently that it won't show up on the standard tests.
)}>
)}>I'm curious about this mutation rate.  It seems to conflict with the stable
)}>estimates of the US HIV+ population based upon tests of those entering the
)}>military.  Will you please elaborate on this?
)}
)}The mutation rate of a virus has nothing whatsoever to do with
)}the prevalence of HIV in military recruits.
)
)Above, you claimed that HIV mutation might make it undetectable.  If so, it
)would seem that testing of large samplings would vary widely.  Yet, this
)doesn't seem to be the case with what I mentioned, which would tend to
)refute the claim that mutation is having that effect.

This doesn't follow at all.  The idea that HIV might mutate enough to
escape detection by current tests was suggested as a possible
explanation for why a few people have been found with an AIDS-like
illness who test HIV-negative.  Firstly, this is a *small* set of
people.  When a million or so people are infected with HIV, a new
strain affecting only a few people won't have any significant effect on
the statistics.  Secondly, the old strain of HIV doesn't disappear from
the body of a person who develops a new strain.  If the number of HIV
particles or infected blood cells from which the next person's
infection is established is more than a handful, the probability that
they will all be of the new strain is somewhere between slight and
negligible.  It would be a rare event.  All or most of the people
carrying a hypothetical new invisible form of HIV would also be
carrying the old strain, and would still test positive, and so such a
new strain would have little or no effect on the statistics of HIV
infection.

>"True greatness consists in the use of a powerful understanding to enlighten
>oneself and others." - Francois Marie Arouet Voltaire

Two comments about your signature quote: (1) The psychological rewards
of knowing oneself to be great are identical to the psychological
rewards of mistakenly believing oneself to be great, and (2) One should
*first* acquire the powerful understanding, *then* enlighten people.

-- 
David Canzi				"Shut up," he explained. -- John 6:43
Newsgroups: talk.politics.medicine,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr)
Subject: Re: APA and Homosexuality
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 08:15:28 GMT

In article <1ifvhcINN4ml@mirror.digex.com> kfl@access.digex.com (Keith F. Lynch) writes:
}Please note that Steve Grossman does not speak for Ayn Rand or
}Objectivism.  Rand always favored equal rights for gays, even in the
}1950s, long before it was politically correct.
}
}Keith Lynch, kfl@access.digex.com

True, but she did say that homosexuality (at least for men) was "not only
irrational, but... disgusting" in response to a question from a gay male
admirer at one of her Ford Hall Forum talks, for which they booed her right-
fully.

Tim Starr - Renaissance Now! - Think Universally, Act Selfishly
starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu

"True greatness consists in the use of a powerful understanding to enlighten
oneself and others." - Francois Marie Arouet Voltaire