From: camurphy@acsu.buffalo.edu (Cindy)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,alt.pagan
Subject: Re: free lionfood! (was: Celtic Cross)
Date: 12 Sep 92 22:44:22 GMT
Organization: UB

pkammer@alesia.ics.uci.edu (Peter Kammer) writes:

>I've been "lurking" on this one for a while and thought I'd add 2 cents or so.

so've i....i tend to shy away from flame-filled theological
potshot wars  :)

>	Christians have never claimed to be originators of the cross as a
>symbol.  It obviously goes way back (at least to Egypt and I imagine well
>before).

not to mention the figure of the quartered circle appears as an
earth symbol in the haudenosaunee (iroquois) and greek (?)
astrological symbologies.  the dispute over whether the cross
or the trinity came first in christianity or x pagan tradition
is a fallacious dichotomy; it's just the coincidence of
those symbols or concepts that made it easier, greased the way,
for conversion and co-optation of the locals and their diehard
traditions into christian traditions.  i happen to know of a
Mayan temple in which the image of the virgin mary, moon under
her feet and 12 stars (or is it thirteen) over her head (and
'clothed with the sun' and all that) is known as "the wife
of 7 Macaw" (after the first, 'false' moon[goddess]).  
pretty funny to see old ways lingering under apparent christianity
(catholocism, even)  :)

the use of saints and saint-days and 'saints lives' is well
documented in the conversion and more gentle persuasion of
various cultures to 'be saved' and convert to christian beliefs.
"saint" Brigit, for instance - well, i'm not an expert so i 
recommend referring to 'the serpent and the goddess' by Mary
Condren for more on that.  there are also a lot of interesting
observations to be made on the vilification of various 'pagan'
deities and symbols and animals (goats, serpents, 'sacred cows'
abound...) by conquering politico-religious wallahs.

i make no pretense of trashing or glorifying any particular
set of beliefs, although i would have to admit i'm more of
an athiestic eclectic pagan with a strong interest in
stringent historical accuracy & admitting which bits of my
own practice (and whoevers', as in Gardnerian Wiccan "tradition")
are purely made up in style and substance.  :)

Cynthia Murphy, camurphy@acsu.buffalo.edu  (new york state, continental U.S.)
(or as i prefer, "T.H.E.M.")



>	The Celtic Cross is pretty well accepted as a valid Christian symbol,
>at the very least by Catholics.  The common christian interpretation of the
>circle is a representation of the eternal nature of God.   I haven't
>personally heard if there's a christian meaning attached to it being
>quartered by the cross.

>        On the derivation of Christian symbols/holidays from "pagan" sources:
>IMHO some of the more successful christian missionary efforts have
>been with the understanding that you couldn't (and shouldn't) strip away a
>people's culture in the name of conversion.  This is likely to mean
>incorporating holidays and symbols that previously held other meanings.
>This continues today.  There are Catholics in New Guinea who worship with
>a very different cultural flavor then members of the same religion elsewhere.

oops, he already made that point.  that's ok.  :)  i'd also
point out that the corruption is mutual, as in the loas/saints
of Voodoo which is a corruption of both Vodun (ancestor-worship,
roughly) and roman catholicism....

>	Oh BTW, one extra note.  The inverted cross _can_ be a christian
>symbol, under the name of "The Cross of Peter."  Peter didn't consider himself
>worthy to die in the same manner as Christ.  Tradition is they accomodated
>him by hanging him upside down.

wow, where'd you get that one from?  not to contradict you,
i'd really like to know.  i'm a voracious reader.

>	(ok, maybe more than 2 cents)

>						pjk


>--
>Peter Kammer
>ICS Grad. Student              pkammer@ics.uci.edu
>Univ. of California, Irvine    203peter@vax.stmarytx.edu