HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tweaver@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Tim Weaver)
Subject: Re: Etymology
Keywords: !, bang
Organization: Kalamazoo College
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 13:15:57 GMT


John Rauser writes:
>It does not however give the etymology of the word "bang", which is
>often used to mean the exclamation point symbol "!".
>
>Does anybody out there know who coined this term and for what reason
>they did so?
>
Bang!         Bang!          Bang!bang!bang!       BANG!!!

  BBB     AA    N   N    GGGG     !!
  B  B   A  A   NN  N   G    G    !!
  BBB    AAAA   N N N   G         !!
  B  B   A  A   N  NN   G  GGG    
  BBB    A  A   N   N    GGGG     !!


Of course they could have called it POW! or BAM! or ZOWIE!
(alright, maybe not zowie)   :)

-- 
|Timothy E. Weaver           | Kalamazoo College  |  (616) 383-5656        |
|Database Programmer/Analyst | 1200 Academy       | These are MY opinions! |
|email:  tweaver@kzoo.edu    | Kalamazoo MI 49006 | Mine!!  Mine!!  Mine!! |
+----------------------------+--------------------+------------------------+
From: rrao@pima.intel.com (Ravi Rao)
Newsgroups: comp.benchmarks
Subject: Re: Benchmarks interpretations needed!
Summary: Linpack, benchmarking
Date: 27 Jul 92 20:55:33 GMT
Organization: Intel Corp, Chandler, AZ

Hi folks,
	I am currently doing some 960 benchmarking and am trying to interpret
	the numbers I get in tabular form on running linpack. I am not very
	sure I am doing this correctly, so could some one run me thru an 
	example to help me out??

	Thanks in advance

Ravi

rrao@sedona.intel.com

--
____________________________________________________
Ravi S. Rao
SP1-82	Intel Corpn, Chandler, AZ

e-mail: rrao@hopi.intel.com, rrao@pima.intel.com
____________________________________________________

Newsgroups: comp.benchmarks
From: mswanke@cip.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Matthias Wanke)
Subject: Help: Benchmarks for m88K
Organization: Student Pool, CSD, University of Erlangen, Germany
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 16:39:47 GMT


I need your help. I'm looking for any kind of benchmark of the
Motorola 88000 RISC-Processor. I'll be working in an environment
consisting of about 80 88K-Processor and i'd like to know how fast this is 
going to be. I'm especially interested in floating-point performance.

Thanx in advance,
Matt.

(I could post a summary in case of interest).
---
Matthias Wanke (IRC: Goose, Goosie)        * "Base 8 is just like base 10 - 
mswanke@cip.informatik.uni-erlangen.de     *  if you're missing two fingers..."
wanke@faps.uni-erlangen.de                 *  (Tom Lehrer) 
Newsgroups: comp.benchmarks
From: johnn@eskimo.celestial.com (John Navitsky)
Subject: Benchmarks needed!
Organization: =>ESKIMO NORTH (206) 367-3837 SEATTLE, WA.<=
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 16:41:41 GMT

Hello!

I am in urgent need of benchmarks and specs. for the AT&T 3B2 models 600/G
and 600GR.  I would also like system specs (such as bus throughput in MB/sec,
SCSI controller speed, etc).  Also, any benchmarks for the Sun SS10 would also
be appreciated.  I'll take anything I can get.  (sorry, the SS10 would be a
single processor model 41)  Thank you very much for your response!
 
  -john


-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  John Navitsky                        e-mail   johnn@eskimo.celestial.com
                                               johnn@locke.hs.washington.ed
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: jthan@rrdstrad.nist.gov (Jonathan M. Richardson)
Newsgroups: comp.benchmarks
Subject: Benchmarks in C Archives
Date: 31 Jul 92 15:27:29 GMT
Organization: NIST and Harvard University

This must be a FAQ:

Where are benchmarks in C archived?

Thanks in advance,

-Jonathan
Newsgroups: comp.benchmarks
From: eugene@amelia.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: [l/m 4/28/92] References	(28/28)		c.be FAQ
Keywords: who, what, where, when, why, how
Organization: NAS Program, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 11:25:12 GMT
Reply-To: eugene@amelia.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)

28	References						<This panel>
1	Introduction to FAQ chain and netiquette
2	Benchmarking Concepts
3	PERFECT
4
5	Performance Metrics
6	Temporary scaffold of New FAQ material
7	Music to benchmark by
8	Benchmark types
9	Linpack
10
11
12	Measurement Environments
13
14
15	12 Ways to Fool the Masses with Benchmarks
16	SPEC
17	Benchmark invalidation methods
18
19	WPI Benchmark
20	Equivalence
21	TPC
22
23
24
25	Ridiculously short benchmarks
26	Other miscellaneous benchmarks
27

References
	Pending publication of Miya, Saavadera-Barerra, and Smith.

@article{LeCl82,
author="H. M. Levy and D. W. Clark",
title="On the Use of Benchmarks for Measuring System Performance",
journal="Computer architecture news",
month=dec,
year=1982}

@article{CoHw91,
author="T. M. Conte and W. W. Hwu",
title="Benchmark characterization",
journal="IEEE Computer",
month=jan,
pages="48-56",
year=1991}

                         ^  
                        /.\  
                       / . \  
                    e /  . O\ S
                     /   .  p\  
                  r /n   .C  e\ o
                   /o   C.o   r\  
                a /i     .m    a\ f
                 /t     P.p     t\  
              w /a       .i      i\ t
               /c       U.l       n\ 
            d /i         .e        g\ w
             /n          .r          \ 
          r /u           .           S\ a
           /m           y.L           y\
        a /m         r.  N  .i         s\ r
         /o       o.  a     o  .b       t\
      H /C     m.  t           t  .r     e\ e
       /    e.  a                 a  .a   m\
      /  M.  D                       t  .r  \
     / .              D a t a           i  . \
    <_________________________________________> 
               A p p l i c a t i o n
From: gerstel@quaker.admin.upenn.edu
Newsgroups: comp.benchmarks
Subject: re: dinosaur horsepower
Date: 28 Jul 92 19:27:12 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

When I was in the computer sales business, my boss had a figure that really
gooferized me, though I'm not sure if it's 100% correct:  "A 386/33 machine
with a 387 has more computing power than the entire free world in 1962."
From: davidsen@ariel.crd.GE.COM (william E Davidsen)
Newsgroups: comp.benchmarks
Subject: Re: rhosettastone anyone?
Date: 22 Jul 92 13:12:18 GMT
Reply-To: davidsen@crd.ge.com (bill davidsen)
Organization: GE Corporate R&D Center, Schenectady NY

In article <1992Jul20.220136.25192@gateway.novell.com>, bsparks@npd.Novell.COM (Bryan Sparks) writes:

| I propose the development of a benchmark program in C to measure the speed  
| of a system in performing *cryptographic* operations.  An appropriate name  
| for this benchmark is the *rhosettastone*.  This benchmark should include  

  I think thisi is a really poor overload of the name, since Brian
Fitzgerald mentioned using that name for a natural language translation
benchmark some years ago. That's probably a better match to the
historical significance, too.

  I also question the assumption that this would be different than
integer "bit fiddling" benchmarks like the grey to binary, binary to
grey benchmark I posted to alt.sources some years ago. Not that lack of
relevance ever stopped someone from writing a benchmark...
-- 
bill davidsen, GE Corp. R&D Center; Box 8; Schenectady NY 12345
	It never ceases to amaze me that otherwise rational people, able to
	understand calculus, compound interest, and the income tax form, can
	continue to believe that poker is a game of chance.
From: weicker@sinix.UUCP (Reinhold Weicker)
Newsgroups: comp.benchmarks
Subject: Update on SPEC
Date: 22 Jul 92 09:50:39 GMT
Organization: SNI AG Muenchen, STO XS

This is an update (mostly minor corrections) to the recent (July 16)
posting of Answers to Frequently Asked Questions about SPEC.

1) CFP92:

This suite contains 14 (not 6) compute-intensive floating-point
benchmarks (12 Fortran, 2 C).

2) Phase-Out of the SPEC Benchmark Suite 1.2 (CPU-Benchmarks of 1989):

Since SPEC has now, with CINT92 and CFP92, better and larger
benchmark suites than the old suite 1.2 to measure the
CPU/Memory/Compiler performance, it strongly encourages usage of the
new suites (with the averages SPECint92, SPECfp92 for speed,
SPECrate_int92, SPECrate_fp92 for compute-intensive throughput).

Therefore, at the last Steering Committee meeting, SPEC has
adopted a plan for the phase-out of the old benchmarks:
- Result pages labeled with "Benchmark obsolete" from Jan. 1993 on,
- No more tape sales of Rel. 1.2b after Jan. 1993,
- No more result publications in SPEC Newsletter after June 1993.

3) SPEC seeks new members:

In order to encourage new memberships, SPEC has lowered the
initiation fee to $ 1000 (full members) or $ 500 (associates).

I'ld like to use this opportunity to ask comp.benchmark readers from
academic and research institutions to consider if their institution
can join SPEC.

- You can get first-hand experience in an area that is widely
  neglected in academia but nethertheless very important in the "real
  world"; and there *are* interesting research questions in this
  area.
- SPEC can perhaps overcome the perceiption that may exist "These are
  just a bunch of computer vendors, and who knows how meaningful
  their results are". Presently, we are only vendors, but membership
  is not restricted to vendors. Others can bring in new aspects, are
  (hopefully) unbiased (and perceived as unbiased), can accompany
  SPEC's practical work with systematic research, etc.

- Reinhold Weicker

I have been involved in benchmarking since I wrote Dhrystone; for
the last 1 1/2 years I have been representing my company (Siemens
Nixdorf) within SPEC.

Opinions expressed are my own and do not represent SPEC or my company.

P.S. I post this message from a different machine than I use normally.
Therefore, if you want to send mail to me, do not use the "r"
command, use the explicit address "weicker@ztivax.zfe.siemens.de".
-- 
Reinhold P. Weicker, Siemens Nixdorf Information Systems, STM OS 32
Address:    Otto-Hahn-Ring 6, W-8000 Muenchen 83, Germany
E-Mail:     weicker@ztivax.zfe.siemens.de
Phone:      +49-89-636-42436 (8-17 Central European Time)
From: gof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Gerald Fountain)
Newsgroups: comp.benchmarks
Subject: Spec *binaries* available?
Date: 21 Jul 92 20:23:24 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.1992Jul21.202324.22330
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston Illinois.

I understand the Spec92 series of benchmarks is available for a fee.  This
includes sources, subscriptions, etc.  I was wondering if there was any way to
get compiled binaries without any such fees.  I am trying to compare old and
new machines.  Some vendors are supplying Spec92 figures, some Spec89 and
others just Spec??.  On older equipment (say an old Sun4) there are no (or
older Spec89) figures. 

Thus the question.  Is there a source for Spec92 *binaries* for use on various
platforms.  How does this effect the license for those with Spec92 sources (I
don't care to modify it, I just want to be able to test it on a given
platform(s) subjected to different loads).  Similarly, does anyone have
binaries for the x86 line.  The 486 series seems to be closing the
PC-Workstation gap fairly well (considering the price/performance ratio). 
Obviously this is mainly true for number crunching only. 


-- 
Jerry Fountain                       
Northwestern University                        gof@stokes.chem-eng.nwu.edu
Department of Chemical Engineering             (708) 491-3555
2145 Sheridan Road, Evanston, IL  60208
From: arne@mango.mef.ki.se (Arne Elofsson)
Newsgroups: comp.benchmarks
Subject: Test (please ignore)
Date: 24 Jul 92 15:01:16 GMT

I just test the posting function
Alt.test did not work.
Arne Elofsson
From: hansk@cs.kuleuven.ac.be (HansKristiaan De Splenter)
Subject: comparison of different math coprocessors?
Organization: Dept. Computerwetenschappen
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 13:04:38 GMT

Keyword
s: 

	Hello Netters,

	I'm looking for a benchmark comparison of 80387
math coprocessors from Intel, CT&T, IIT, Cyrix, ULSI, ...
(are there any more?)

	The most important is to have relative figures
("this one is x times faster than that one in such
circumstances", ...) rather than absolute information
(number of MFLOPS, ...), although one can derive the first
from the second...

	Any hints/information-pointers are welcome!  Thanks
for your cooperation!

Hans-Kristiaan De Splenter
asst-postmaster at
the unix backbone for Belgium (ub4b)

e-mail:	hansk@ub4b.buug.be		mail:	Katholieke Universiteit Leuven
	hansk@Belgium.EU.net			Dept. Computer Science
	hansk@cs.kuleuven.ac.be			Celestijnenlaan 200 A
						B-3030 Leuven
Tel: +32 16 201015 x 3542			Belgium
From: borasky@ogicse.ogi.edu (M. Edward Borasky)
Newsgroups: comp.benchmarks
Subject: Re: rhosettastone anyone?
Date: 21 Jul 92 19:56:33 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.40361
Organization: Oregon Graduate Institute (formerly OGC), Beaverton, OR

In article <1992Jul20.220136.25192@gateway.novell.com> bsparks@npd.Novell.COM (Bryan Sparks) writes:
>I propose the development of a benchmark program in C to measure the speed  
>of a system in performing *cryptographic* operations.  An appropriate name  
>for this benchmark is the *rhosettastone*. 
> .....
>Since there are export and  
>patent restrictions that control the use of distribution of DES, RSA, MDx,  
>etc., the source for these algorithms cannot be included in the benchmark  
>if the program is to be widely distributed.

What you should do is code up some multi-word integer multiply and divide/GCD 
algorithms.  See Knuth, "The Art of Computer Programming", volume 2.  You 
might also track down the Convex vectorized version of Buchberger's Grobner
Basis code.  I think it may be in FORTRAN, but it's an easy translation to "C".
I've forgotten the name of the Convex person who did the benchmark.  The 
original is in TOMS; Convex vectorized it.
From: eugene@amelia.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: [l/m 3/17/92] Other misc. benchmarks (26/28)		c.be FAQ
Keywords: who, what, where, when, why, how
Organization: NAS Program, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 92 11:25:17 GMT
Reply-To: eugene@amelia.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)

26	Other miscellaneous benchmarks	<This panel>
27
28	References
1	Introduction to the FAQ chain and netiquette
2
3	PERFECT
4
5	Performance Metrics
6
7	Music to benchmark by
8	Benchmark types
9	Linpack
10
11
12	Measurement Environments
13
14
15	12 Ways to Fool the Masses with Benchmarks
16	SPEC
17	Benchmark invalidation methods
18
19	WPI Benchmark
20	Equivalence
21	TPC
22
23
24
25	Ridiculously short benchmarks

RhosettaStone:
Speech synthesis and recognition benchmark:
	e.g., How to recognize speech.
        How to wreck a nice beach.
An interesting benchmark because it does not take a machine to become confused.
Who: me
What: examples of different problems in speech and language
recognition and synthesis.  The examples are collected for a naive
user community.  Those in the field are dealing with a highly specialized
media.  This file keeps the experts in check.
Where: eos.arc.nasa.gov.
How: confusion, discriminatory sounds
Further examples always sought.

                   ^ A  
                s / \ r                
               m /   \ c              
              h /     \ h            
             t /       \ i          
            i /         \ t        
           r /           \ e      
          o /             \ c    
         g /               \ t  
        l /                 \ u
       A /                   \ r
        <_____________________> e   
                Language
From: bae@Auspex.COM (Brian Ehrmantraut)
Newsgroups: comp.benchmarks
Subject: Re: IBM ES9000 vs 486/50 SCO
Date: 22 Jul 92 22:43:05 GMT

In article <BrrDvF.IHC@world.std.com>, cmr@world.std.com (Charles M Richmond) writes:
> 
> Does anyone know of any benchmarks that can be used to compare an
> IBM ES9000 and a 486/50 running SCO?

	Sure - weight, floorspace, power consumption, color...


-- 
		Brian A. Ehrmantraut

BELL:   voice:(408) 492-0900  fax: (408) 492-0909  
USnail:	Auspex Systems, 2952 Bunker Hill Lane, Santa Clara, CA 95054  
Newsgroups: comp.benchmarks
From: peter@merlin.acadiau.ca (Peter Steele)
Subject: Benchmarking I/O performance
Organization: Acadia University
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 13:14:12 GMT

I want to run some comprehensive I/O benchmarks and I was wondering
if someone out there has something that would suit my needs. I know
I could whip up some stuff on my own (sorts and stuff) but I'm not
a benchmark guru and I'd like something that is a thorough benchmark
of I/O performance. Thanks in advance for any and all info.
--
Peter Steele        Unix Services Manager            peter.steele@acadiau.ca 
Acadia Univ., Wolfville, NS, Canada B0P 1X0  902-542-2201  Fax: 902-542-4364
From: jwreilly@mipos2.intel.com (Jeffrey Reilly)
Newsgroups: comp.benchmarks
Subject: Re: Spec *binaries* available?
Date: 22 Jul 92 00:19:01 GMT
Reply-To: jwreilly@mipos2.UUCP (Jeffrey Reilly)
Organization: Microprocessor Component Group, Intel Corp., Santa Clara, CA

In article <1992Jul21.202324.22330@news.acns.nwu.edu> gof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Gerald Fountain) writes:
>
>Thus the question.  Is there a source for Spec92 *binaries* for use on various
>platforms.  How does this effect the license for those with Spec92 sources (I
>don't care to modify it, I just want to be able to test it on a given
>platform(s) subjected to different loads).  

The best source of binaries would be asking the vendors themselves.

Unfortunately, while many of the SPEC benchmarks have been derived from
publically available application programs, the changes to convert them to a
portable SPEC benchmark, the workloads used for the benchmarks and the tools
created to run the benchmarks are all covered by SPEC license. To use these, a 
SPEC license must be obtained for each suite.

The cost of the CINT92 and CFP92 are $425 and $575 respectively. I would suggest
calling SPEC at (703) 698-9600 x318. You should also inquire about academic
discounts.

Jeff

Jeff Reilly			Unix Systems Performance
jwreilly@mipos2.intel.com	Intel Corporation
(408) 765 - 5909		Santa Clara, California
Newsgroups: comp.benchmarks
From: cmr@world.std.com (Charles M Richmond)
Subject: IBM ES9000 vs 486/50 SCO
Organization: Integrated International Systems Corp. One Longfellow Place, Suite 3309, Boston, Ma.
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 21:47:38 GMT


Does anyone know of any benchmarks that can be used to compare an
IBM ES9000 and a 486/50 running SCO?


Charlie


-- 
*****************************************************************************
*  Charles Richmond 	Integrated International Systems Corporation        *
*  cmr@world.std.com	(Temporary) crichmond@mr4dec.enet.dec.com           *
*  Specializing in UNIX, X, Image Processing, and Communications.           *
From: allison@hal.COM (Dennis Allison)
Newsgroups: comp.benchmarks
Subject: Re: Apple mark test
Date: 30 Jul 92 21:23:06 GMT
Organization: HaL Computer Systems, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: dennis.hal.com

In article <1992Jul30.200041.2990@noose.ecn.purdue.edu> shankar@ec.ecn.purdue.edu
(Shankar Ramakrishnan) writes:
>
>The following is posted by me on behalf of Frank Klemm:
>
>[ stuff deleted ...]  the apple mark test? ... a test [of] how many fractal
>iteration[s] a computer can make per second. 400 kApple/sec means ... 400000
>iterations per second.  ...  [stuff deleted]
>
> Now the program (runs only on 386+): [uucoded program deleted]
>
 	Posting a 386 executable isn't much help.  It gives a number for 
	one architecture/operating system compbination.  Cross architecture
	comparisons are clearly precluded.  Without the source code no one
	can determine where the bottlenecks lie in a particular machine nor 
	can one try different optimization strategies.
Newsgroups: comp.benchmarks
From: cmr@world.std.com (Charles M Richmond)
Subject: IOZONE
Summary: Disk IO Benchmarks
Organization: Integrated International Systems Corp. One Longfellow Place, Suite 3309, Boston, Ma.
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 00:10:32 GMT

  I need to settle on some basic industry standard benchmarks for
unix disk i/o. Could someone out there give me a description of iozone
and iobench (??) , preferably including how to obtain the tests.
Cost is not a big problem (within limits) so commercial programs
are in the running. The key factors are a narrow focus on disk i/o,
short run times (1-2 hours), and pervasive presence in the industry.

The reason that I am not interested in a broader focus is that I am already
running SPEC SDM/KENBUS, AIMIII, Neal Nelson BBM (18 and 30), the Byte
Magazine UNIX benchmarks, and a few proprietary benchmarks.

Charlie

-- 
*****************************************************************************
*  Charles Richmond 	Integrated International Systems Corporation        *
*  cmr@world.std.com	(Temporary) crichmond@mr4dec.enet.dec.com           *
*  Specializing in UNIX, X, Image Processing, and Communications.           *
From: Chip.Elliott@dartmouth.edu (Chip Elliott)
Newsgroups: comp.benchmarks
Subject: Macintosh SPECmarks?
Date: 22 Jul 92 13:48:30 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH


Can anyone point me to a set of [informal] specmarks for the various
Macintosh models, especially Classics and Quadras?

I'm teaching architecture to students who own Macs, and would
like a way to make SPEC numbers meaningful to them. Don't particularly
care whether the machines have FPUs, etc -- just so long as it's clear.

Thanks very much,

Chip Elliott       chip.elliott@dartmouth.edu
From: crash@hal.com (Chris Craddock)
Newsgroups: comp.benchmarks
Subject: Re: IBM ES9000 vs 486/50 SCO
Date: 22 Jul 1992 16:15:18 GMT
Organization: HaL Computer Systems
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sydney.hal.com

In article <BrrDvF.IHC@world.std.com>, cmr@world.std.com (Charles M Richmond) writes:
|> 
|> Does anyone know of any benchmarks that can be used to compare an
|> IBM ES9000 and a 486/50 running SCO?
|>  
|> Charlie

Er, which model ES/9000? There's a gazillion of them, ranging from an itty
bitty air cooled uniprocessor up to a water cooled six way monster. They have
memory sizes ranging from 32MB to 9GB.

Most of them also support one or more vector processors for those who want 
number crunching power.

And which OS? They all run all of IBM's OS' - VSE, VM, MVS and AIX in multiple
versions, including XA and ESA.

It sounds like you have a particular case you want to prove?

Chris
-- 
"That's the problem with nature, something's always stinging you
 or oozing mucous all over you. Let's go and watch TV"  - Calvin

crash@hal.com   		HaL Computer Systems Inc.
(408) 379-7000 x1163		1315 Dell Ave. Campbell CA 95008
From: jwreilly@mipos2.intel.com (Jeffrey Reilly)
Newsgroups: comp.benchmarks
Subject: Re: Spec *binaries* available?
Date: 22 Jul 92 00:25:37 GMT
Reply-To: jwreilly@mipos2.UUCP (Jeffrey Reilly)
Organization: Microprocessor Component Group, Intel Corp., Santa Clara, CA

In article <1992Jul21.202324.22330@news.acns.nwu.edu> gof@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Gerald Fountain) writes:
>Similarly, does anyone have
>binaries for the x86 line.  The 486 series seems to be closing the
>PC-Workstation gap fairly well (considering the price/performance ratio). 
>Obviously this is mainly true for number crunching only. 

Intel uses the Absoft 3.1.4 and Metware 2.4b compilers to generate the binaries
for their performance numbers. The SPEC March 1992 Newsletter contains results
for the Intel XPRESS Desktop 486DX50 with these compilers for a SPECint92 of 30.1
and a SPECfp92 of 14.0. The compilers flags are provided at the bottom of each
page.

Jeff

Jeff Reilly			| "There is something fascinating about
Intel Corporation		| science. One gets such wholesale returns
jwreilly@mipos2.intel.com	| of conjecture out of such a trifling
(408) 765 - 5909		| investment of fact" - M. Twain

Newsgroups: comp.org.eff.talk