From: J.M.Ross@man0507.wins.icl.co.uk
Newsgroups: rec.sport.soccer
Subject: Re: 1FC Ko"ln v. XX..XX (should be Flogging a Dead Fish)
Date: 7 Oct 1992 08:29:06 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu







In message <FISCHER.92Oct7050906@steiner.iesd.auc.dk> fischer@iesd.auc.dk
(Lars Peter Fischer) writes:

>>>>> "James" == J.M.Ross  (Ross@man0507.wins.icl.co.uk)

>James> Actually, he said "Celtic Glasgow" followed by "Glasgow".
>James> That's what I was on about.

>And so? You sure knew what he meant anyway. From the context there
>could be now doubt. Maybe to him, the opposition for his team was "the
>team from Glasgow" and hence he writes that way. Who cares?

So I reminded him there's more than one team from Glasgow. What's the
problem? The fact that we know from his context which team he meant is
neither here nor there.

>James> OK, so in that article it was obvious what he meant by
>James> "Glasgow", but the use of "Glasgow" is totally wrong. A related
>James> question: in Germany do you refer to 1FC Ko"ln as Ko"ln, in
>James> which case does this not offend Fortuna K"oln fans?

>I can assure you people in Denmark refer to 1.FC K"oln as just K"oln.
>Actually, I have done so several times on news in the past few months.
>The only reason you didn't notice is that the German fans are
>practical people and accept that foreigners have strange ways.

Why do you insist on bringing nationality into it?

>Even more interesting is that you appears not to have noticed that
>people are calling Vfb Stuttgart "Stuttgart" in quite a few posts
>recently. Did you see anyone complain? Do you think Vfb is the only
>team in Stuttgart?

Since Kickers don't seem to spend much time in the top division, it's easy
for me to forget about them. Yes, I did notice the use of "Stuttgart",
along with a few others which I have already mentioned. The two examples
you give (VfB Stuttgart and 1.FC Ko"ln) are the senior teams in their cities
and their titles contain the city name anyway. That is sufficient justification
for the loose use of Stuttgart and Ko"ln.

>When I refer to 1.FC K"oln I often use the full name the first time
>and then just K"oln the rest of the time. Likewise for Vfb Stuttgart,
>Borrusia Dortmund, etc. This pattern is, I guess, quite common for
>German teams. Maybe thats why our German friend abbreviates "Celtic
>Glasgow" as "Glasgow"?

Yes, it's a pattern we all use and so it's obvious why "Celtic Glasgow"
becomes "Glasgow". I reminded Chris (perhaps too forcefully) that in this
case it is the wrong way to abbreviate.

>James> I assume that you read my previous posts fully, in which case
>James> you would have noticed that I am concerned with the accuracy of
>James> club names from all countries.

>Yes, and this *is* silly. If I have to worry about fans of this and
>that team being insulted if I get something wrong, I'll rather not
>write at all. I do my best, but I can't do away with my language and
>cultural background. Names are just labels, and if we know what is
>meant, what's the problem? I see no reason for people to use the
>Danish name for Copenhagen or anything like that (most can't, since
>they do not have the alphabet for it).

If I have to worry about people having a go at me if I correct someone then
I'd rather not write at all! It would be silly (even arrogant) if I *insisted*
that you get every club name 100% right every time. Equally silly if you
imagine that because I point out an error I am demanding that you correct it
when you may have good reason not to. Look, there's two things you can do,
either you say, "I got it wrong, I'll try and get it right in future", or else
you say, "I know that I am not absolutely correct, but here's a good reason
why I'm going to continue doing things my way".

>What annoys me in your attitude is that you are getting things nearly
>your way most of the time, in your own language, and still you demand
>more. I still believe you would do well in considering the fact that
>not everyone here has a British background.

Ah, so we see now what your real gripe is. The fact that this newsgroup
carries on it's business (mostly?) in English is totally irrelevant. Because
I *do* have a British background then I can speak mostly comfortably on
British matters. If I were to post an article containing references to some
other country I would be pleased if someone were to point out any
inaccuracies (don't all rush at once!) and would try to make adjustments in
future accordingly. Calm down and stop looking for nationalism which
doesn't exist.

Lars, if you want to discuss this any further, then do everyone else on
the net a favour and mail me direct. I don't think this thread has much
to do with football anymore.

+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
!  James M. Ross                            ! ICL Computers Ltd   !
+-------------------------------------------+ Wenlock Way         !
!  Tel:   061 223 1301 x2661                ! West Gorton         !
!  Email: j.m.ross@man0507.wins.icl.co.uk   ! MANCHESTER  M12 5DR !
!  EXAC:  j.m.zzross@uk03                   ! UK                  !
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+