HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mykes@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Schwartz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: I am not giving up on the Amiga
Distribution: world
X-NewsSoftware: GRn 1.16e (7/4/92) by Mike Schwartz & Michael B. Smith
Date: 26 Jul 92 13:37:32 PST
Organization: Amiga makes it possible

In article <1992Jul25.214155.24429@ctr.columbia.edu> jerry@connection.prospect.com (Jerry Shekhel) writes:
> mykes@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Schwartz) writes:
> >
> >I for one am not giving up on my Amiga.  I have been pricing $4K and up
> >PC systems, and in this price range, the Amiga 3000 with 040 board is
> >the price/performance leader.  At $6K, the Amiga 2000 with GVP 040
> >and 24-bit board pushes systems at 4x the cost (i.e. SGI Elan).
> >
>
> Mike, if you think that an Amiga with an accelerator and a 24-bit TIGA
> board can even begin to approach the performance of an Indigo Elan, you
> are badly disillusioned.  On the other hand, that Elan graphics board alone
> costs something like $16K.
>

For straight 2-D rendering, the GVP board does push the Elan.  But for
3-D, the Elan will be hard to top for a long time to come.  I've seen
numbers like 100,000 to 1,000,000 polygons, shaded etc., thrown around
with the Elan.  The GVP board will do less than 50,000 for sure.  The
GVP literature claims the board does 3 million pixels per second in
24 bits with an 040).

But you do not understand that the GVP 24-bit board is not a TIGA
product.  It does repaint the entire screen 170 times per second
at 1024x768 24 bits.  The framebuffer alone costs $3500, and the
040 accelerator is at least $1500 more...

The GVP board also does 3200x2560 in 256 colors - if you can find
a monitor :)  That's 10.7 inches by 8.5 inches at 300 dpi :)  Seems
like you'd need to turn your monitor on its side, though...

> >
> >Mike Schwartz  (ames!zorch!amiga0!mykes or mykes@amiga0.sf-bay.org)
> >
> --
> +-------------------+-----------------------+--------------------------------+
> | Jerry J. Shekhel  | Molecular Simulations | Time just fades the pages      |
> | Drummers do it... | Inc.  Waltham, MA USA | in my book of memories.        |
> |    ... In rhythm! |     (617) 890-2888    |              -- Guns N' Roses  |
> +-------------------+-----------------------+--------------------------------+
> |           ...! [ princeton mit-eddie bu sunne ] !polygen!jerry             |
> |                            jerry@polygen.com                               |
> +----------------------------------------------------------------------------+

--
Amiga programmer of: GRn, MailMinder, Budokan, Beyond Dark Castle, Dark Castle
Sega Genesis programmer of: Dick Tracy and Marble Madness.
Mike Schwartz  (ames!zorch!amiga0!mykes or mykes@amiga0.sf-bay.org)
1124 Fremont Ave.
Los Altos, CA 94024

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: troy@bluemoon.rn.com (Troy Fridley)
Subject: Re: I am giving up on the Amiga
Organization: Blue Moon BBS ((614) 868-998[024])
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 92 03:31:53 EDT

ggg@kepler.unh.edu (Gregory G Greene) writes:

> 	I wasn't really comparing OS2 against AmigaDos.  The person I 
>    responded to ( was it you? ), was saying there were some things that
>    he would like to have that Windows didn't provide.  I just mentioned 
>    that OS2 2.0 might be an alternative that he could look at.  I don't
>    know about OS2 needing a 386DX-33 though, there seems to be quite a few
>    people on the OS2 groups running it on machines lower than that and
>    getting pretty good performance.  At least according to them.  
> 
> 							G.Greene
> 
> >
> >--
> >Gustavo Cordova Avila		| Majoring in Electronics & Computer Sciences
> >al158305@academ01.mty.itesm.mx	| "...I came from the Desert!!" (Sonora)
> >al158305@[131.178.4.10]		| RangerElf @ IRC (usually in #amiga)


The problem here is that most MS-DOSers,OS/2ers, ect. Have NEVER seen 
Performance! Point-n-FACT!
 
                troy

  Does one actually need a brain to think?  Obviously Not!
 
 UUCP: Troy@Bluemoon.uucp

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: leavitt@cheshire.oxy.edu (Thomas VanNess Leavitt)
Subject: Re:  Memory Protection-Why not?
Organization: Occidental College, Los Angeles, CA 90041 USA.
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 06:27:57 GMT

Why would the messaging system have to be compatible with all Amiga
software ever written?  Certainly, if true VM is that important, people
should be willing to sacrifice older versions of a few apps.

Thom

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: skip@cs.olemiss.edu (Skip Sauls)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: I DID giev up on the Amiga!
Date: 22 Jul 92 13:42:02 GMT
Organization: University of Mississippi, Dept. of Computer Science

In article <torrie.711786326@Xenon.Stanford.EDU> torrie@cs.stanford.edu (Evan Torrie) writes:
>gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block) writes:
>
>>mykes@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Schwartz) writes:
>>: Would anyone else out there in AmigaLand like an Amiga laptop?  How about 2
>
>>Yes.  I'd like a 68000-based laptop, if I could.
>
>  Maybe you should just buy a Powerbook 100 Greg :-)
>
>  $899 for a 4/40 version at Price Club.

Now why would he want one of those when he could get an A600 with one
of those awesome 1084 COLOR monitors for about the same price?  Apple
better watch out when Commodore brings these babies to the US!  :-)

>Evan (who loves his PB100, even though nobody else does).

Maybe ReadySoft will come out with a kit for the A600 that includes the
AMax emulator, LCD screen, trackball, and battery pack.  They could call
it the PBMax just like the candy bar.  :-)

>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Evan Torrie.  Stanford University, Class of 199?       torrie@cs.stanford.edu 
>Embrace rationalism, reject superstition.           Break away from the past.

Skip Sauls                  
skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu
From: leavitt@cheshire.oxy.edu (Thomas VanNess Leavitt)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Obituary [Amiga's] in Silicon Valley newspaper
Date: 23 Jul 92 22:14:03 GMT
Organization: Occidental College, Los Angeles, CA 90041 USA.

It seems that proclaiming the deal of "proprietary" architectures and
implementations is pretty much premature, considering the emergence and
survival of NeXT, the development of half a dozen "proprietary" game 
consoles, the Newton, all the RISC level machines, etc. etc.

Now, you may not have totally machine dependent OS's either, but then Amix
is a good example of a platform implementation of a cross-platform OS.

Why is the Amiga and Mac running of '040s (and '0x0 Suns) any different from
an OS/2/Win NT/NextStep/Unix/DOS/CP/M 86 etc OS running on varied and sundry
hardware (MONO MFM/PC to 24bit ESDI gig optical disk all IO builtinto the
motherboard proprietary video/hard disk/memory implementations).

Thom
@
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: jyoung@nyx.cs.du.edu (Jeff Young)
Subject: Re: I am not giving up on the Amiga
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 18:33:55 GMT

In article <mykes.0a41@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG> mykes@amiga0.SF-Bay.ORG (Mike Schwartz) writes:
>I for one am not giving up on my Amiga.  I have been pricing $4K and up
>PC systems, and in this price range, the Amiga 3000 with 040 board is
>the price/performance leader.  At $6K, the Amiga 2000 with GVP 040
>and 24-bit board pushes systems at 4x the cost (i.e. SGI Elan).
>

If you are paying thousands to PC dealer then Amiga dealer will
lose money and sale.  You are MAJOR developer too so if all
you money go to PC then now it will be very hard for Amiga
companies.  

PC is like TYRANNOSORUS REX. It eats everything else, stinks
and it is terrible neighbor.  Computer evolution got BEST 
MUTATION with A500 and soon Atari Falcon will be born.


Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: kdarling@garfield.catt.ncsu.edu (Kevin Darling)
Subject: Re: Well, Jerry Pournell says that there is a new amiga
Organization: North Carolina State University
Distribution: comp
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 15:35:01 GMT

peterk@cbmger.de.so.commodore.com (Dr Peter Kittel Germany) writes:
>>>  Hope it is a new Amiga and not an A3000 retread, but considering that the
>>>summer is traditionally slow on new computer happenings, it just might be.
>>>[...]
>
>Another idea: Jerry *dies* for CD-ROMs. Anyone living near him that could
>evangelize him for CDTV? Anyone heard any word of him about this or CD-I?
>(I didn't see anything like that.)

One guess would be that he got in an A3000 to play with VistaPro and creating
artificial planetscapes.  Hmmm.  Altho isn't there a PC version of that?

kevin <kdarling@catt.ncsu.edu>
From: jprad@faatcrl.UUCP (Jack Radigan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Well, Jerry Pournell says that there is a new amiga
Date: 27 Jul 92 22:46:21 GMT
Distribution: comp
Organization: FAA Technical Center, Atlantic City NJ

kuch@reed.edu (Jerry Kuch) writes:

>Or maybe he's been inspired by the recent obituary in the Silicon Valley
>newspaper to write his own image mulching smear when it can do most damage. :-)

>He might still be in mourning over Big Kat... hard to say.

  Actually, it was Ezekel, the CompuPro that he donated to the Smithsonian.
wasn't it?

  BTW, BYTE has a 3 month lead time, so I doubt Jerry is refering to Skip's
rather irresponsible post that's traveled much futher than I'd imagined.

  Hope it is a new Amiga and not an A3000 retread, but considering that the
summer is traditionally slow on new computer happenings, it just might be.

  I wonder if JoAnn Dow had better luck with Jerry this time than she did
with his A2000...

  -jack-
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: torrie@cs.stanford.edu (Evan Torrie)
Subject: Re: Amigas are *HOT*
Originator: torrie@Xenon.Stanford.EDU
Organization: CS Department, Stanford University, California, USA
Date: 25 Jul 92 19:59:06 GMT

hawk@pnet01.cts.com (John Anderson) writes:

>>  Maybe you should just buy a Powerbook 100 Greg :-)                         
>>  $899 for a 4/40 version at Price Club.                                     
>                                                                              
>  Dang! Only 900 bucks! That seems pretty cool for a little portable word     
>processing machine. I might snatch one up. What else besides 4 megs RAM and   
>40 meg hard drive (which I assume the 4/40 standa for) does the little        
>puppy come with? Floppy, expansion ports, etc.                                

  The Price Club model includes 4MB RAM, 40MB hard disk, and a 1.44MB
external floppy drive.  The screen is 640 x 400.  The processor
is a 16MHz 68000.  The expansion ports are one RS422A serial (i.e.
the std Appletalk port), a SCSI connector, the floppy connector, 
sound output (unfortunately no sound input on the 100), and the
usual Apple Desktop Bus port.
  You better hurry if you want to pick one up.  Most of the Price
Clubs around here have sold out their 70-75 machines the same day
they went on sale.

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Evan Torrie.  Stanford University, Class of 199?       torrie@cs.stanford.edu 
Embrace rationalism, reject superstition.           Break away from the past.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: ksalper@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Ken Alper)
Subject: Re: The future of the Amiga is clear
Keywords: PEROT for President
Organization: Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 10:12:46 EDT

  Not being a particular fan of the Amiga myself, I was just wondering...

  How do all you Amiga-Lovers out there feel about someone saying Amiga has
  a terrific future...and ending his post with 'Perot in '96"???

  Seems like a real winner to me.

  Not.

  Ken

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: torrie@cs.stanford.edu (Evan Torrie)
Subject: Re: Amiga Future?!?
Originator: torrie@Xenon.Stanford.EDU
Organization: CS Department, Stanford University, California, USA
Date: 27 Jul 92 06:39:10 GMT

pdb059@ipl.jpl.nasa.gov (Paul Bartholomew) writes:
>People are often willing to pay a higher price if they are convinced that,
>one way or another, they are getting their money's worth.  IBM stayed suc-
>cessful for years with that strategy, even though their machine cost as
>much as twice as much as competing clone manufacturers.  Even now they are
>still the largest PC manufacturer, I believe; they just aren't the dominant
>factor they once were.

  IBM still sells more dollar value in PCs than any other company
(I believe their Entry Systems Division has around $12 billion
in revenues).  Apple is next with their $7 billion revenue, 
although they sell about equal numbers of units through the dealer
channel.

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Evan Torrie.  Stanford University, Class of 199?       torrie@cs.stanford.edu 
Embrace rationalism, reject superstition.           Break away from the past.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: mlelstv@speckled.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de (Michael van Elst)
Subject: Re: Amigas are cool
Organization: Max-Planck-Institut f"ur Radioastronomie
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 23:06:10 GMT

In <1992Jul26.212452.6821@news.iastate.edu> barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N Barrett) writes:
>   RAM will always be more expensive than hard drive space.  One of the things
>that Amigas as badly limited in due to its lack of virtual memory is image
>processing.  On Macs with 4M of RAM and 10M of virtual memory, I have been
>able to due wonders with large 2500x3300 scanned images, using Photo Shop.
>By comparison, with ADPro on a 6M Amiga 3000, I run out of memory when I try
>to load images larger than 1024x768.

You don't need VMEM for that purpose and VMEM isn't the best solution for
programs that need more than the physically available memory. VMEM does
a more or less good job on anticipating memory usage, the application
however does exactly know what it needs in memory.
The rest ist the hard-to-find memory management in ADPro.

Regards,
-- 
Michael van Elst
UUCP:     universe!local-cluster!milky-way!sol!earth!uunet!unido!mpirbn!p554mve
Internet: p554mve@mpirbn.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de
                                "A potential Snark may lurk in every tree."
From: das9674@usl.edu (Stephenson Daniel A)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: A message from the National Amiga PC haters Group..
Date: 28 Jul 92 21:27:01 GMT
Organization: University of Southwestern Louisiana

In article <1992Jul28.021603.18050@crash.cts.com> dvan@pnet01.cts.com (David Vandeven) writes:
>A message from the National Amiga PC haters Group..
>
>PC's SUCK!
>Any questions?

Yes, don't you mean SLOW PCs, running MS-DOS?
>    PRIMUS          *   INET: dvan@pnet01.cts.com                          *


--
*Dan Stephenson das9674@rouge.usl.edu                                          *
*                                                                              *
* "Is it that Blake has a genius for leadership, or merely that *you* have a   *
*  genius for being led?" -Avon, from Blakes 7                                 *
From: TomK@cup.portal.com (Tom R Krotchko)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Perot ?
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 20:05:19 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
  <1992Jul24.191639.27054@Princeton.EDU>

>President Clinton

Yup, and:

President Mondale
President Dukakis
Santa Claus
Easter Bunny

<grin>
From: thompson@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: I am giving up on the Amiga
Date: 28 Jul 92 19:28:15 CDT
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

In article <33723@cbmvax.commodore.com>, andy@cbmvax.commodore.com (Andy Finkel) writes:
> In article <1992Jul27.174646.41916@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> thompson@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes:
>>> Let me get this straight...you flame someone for complaining on the
>>> speed of OS/2 on anything less than a 386DX-33 without seeing
>>> it run;  yet you imply that you've not seen it run on a 386SX either 
>>> in your counter aggument ?
>>> 
>>> That's an interesting argument;   The old 
>>> "You've never tried it so you don't know; I've never tried it, so I do know"
>>> line of reasoning isn't often used.
>>> 
>>> There's probably a good reason for this.
>>
>>Well, he heard right.  I have seen OS/2 2.0 on a 386sx-25 with 6 megs 
>>of RAM.  It ran moderatly fast.  With some more RAM, it would be just 
>>plain fast.  And with the September CSD, it will be even faster.
>>
> 
>>|  Charles A. Thompson               |  thompson@ukanvm.cc.ukans.edu         |
> 
> 
> Whoh, talk about _missing_ the point.  The _point_ is that he countered
> someone's hearsay argument with a hearsay argument of his own.
> 
> Whether what you consider 'moderately fast' is 'acceptably fast' to
> someone who would actually try to use OS/2 2.0 on a 386SX is an
> entirely different discussion, one I hope never to be involve in.
> 

Well, in this case, the 'say' that he 'heard' was correct.  Just wanted
to point this out, so everyone wouldn't think OS/2 needed a 486.

I find OS/2 acceptable on a 386sx, but this is a highly subjective area.
I am sure that some readers of this group would not find OS/2 acceptable
on a 386dx.  It depends on the person.  

p.s. I mean acceptable as far as performance.  So don't flame me for saying
that OS/2 is an acceptable _operating system_ for everyone on this group.

Salut,


> 		andy
> -- 
> andy finkel		{uunet|rutgers|amiga}!cbmvax!andy
> 
> "Programming is 5% theory and 95% trivia."
> 
> Any expressed opinions are mine; but feel free to share.
> I disclaim all responsibilities, all shapes, all sizes, all colors.
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  Charles A. Thompson               |  thompson@ukanvm.cc.ukans.edu         |
|  CS Student, University of Kansas  |  thompson@ukanvax.cc.ukans.edu        |
|  and _avid_ SkiBum.                |  OS/2 2.0 is for YOU!!!               |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|  LOOK FOR RECIPE PRO(tm), AN INTERACTIVE RECIPE DATABASE FOR WINDOWS WITH  |
|  AN EASY TO USE, INTUITIVE QUERY.  COMING SOON TO YOUR LOCAL WINDOWS BBS,  |
|  FTP SITE, OR SHAREWARE DISTRIBUTION HOUSE.                                |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: jerry@connection.prospect.com (Jerry Shekhel)
Subject: Re: Commodore and the Osborne Syndrome
Organization: Molecular Simulations, Inc.
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 22:55:18 GMT
X-Posted-From: connection.prospect.com
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

gblock@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block) writes:
>
>You don't seem to get it, do you.  MS-DOS is NOT OS/2 without MP.
>

Nevertheless, it's the perfect example of how much the MMU *hardware* affects
performance.

>
>Ingenious.  How would you know?  Have you ever done any tests under an
>operating system that had an option of running under MP or not?
>

Sure I have.  If you run MS-DOS with a 386 memory manager, all memory accesses
go through the paging unit, invoking the same *hardware* penalty as if it had
MP.

However, there are also software penalties associated with MP, like, for
example, the need to reset page tables and such during context switches, and
having to copy memory blocks between process address spaces.

>
>Greg, replying to someone who obviously knows very little about hardware.
>

Jerry, replying to someone who obviously overstimates his own knowledge.
--
+-------------------+-----------------------+--------------------------------+
| Jerry J. Shekhel  | Molecular Simulations | Time just fades the pages      |
| Drummers do it... | Inc.  Waltham, MA USA | in my book of memories.        |
|    ... In rhythm! |     (617) 890-2888    |              -- Guns N' Roses  |
+-------------------+-----------------------+--------------------------------+
|           ...! [ princeton mit-eddie bu sunne ] !polygen!jerry             |
|                            jerry@polygen.com                               |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: torrie@cs.stanford.edu (Evan Torrie)
Subject: Re: TOS - Did they ever fix it
Originator: torrie@Xenon.Stanford.EDU
Organization: CS Department, Stanford University, California, USA
Date: 27 Jul 92 07:26:56 GMT

epang@fraser.sfu.ca (Eugene Pang) writes:

>catapcnl@Rose-Hulman.Edu. (Chris Lawrence) writes:
>>Did they ever fix that crap in Atari's TOS about those Line A and Line F  
>>op-codes (for the unininitiated - Atari uses (used?) illegal (on the 68000)  
>>instructions (that triggered software exceptions) to call many system
>>routines.   

>Don't know.  It has its good and bad points.

>Good:
>  1) Much better at making ROM entry points opaque to the programmer
>  2) Can trap function calls not implemented yet in an older o.s. release
>     (but then proper programs should check the o.s. version right?)

  It also makes your processor switch into supervisor mode from
user mode, which is generally what you want to do when you're running
in the "kernel".

>>Anyways, this wasn't a *great* idea - TOS bombed on the advanced processors  
>>that used these instructions, and therefore killed off much development with  
>>advanced processors)?

>Apple wouldn't think so...Macs use the same method for calling system
>routines, and they've managed to keep 3rd party development with '020s etc.

  Apple uses only A-line traps.  The coprocessor interface uses F-line
traps, which Apple has never used.  Atari should have known this, 
since the 68020 (and the 68881) were well along, if not actually
shipping by the time the first ST came out.

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Evan Torrie.  Stanford University, Class of 199?       torrie@cs.stanford.edu 
Embrace rationalism, reject superstition.           Break away from the past.
From: stelmack@eggo.tmc.edu (Gregory M. Stelmack)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Amiga Future?!?
Date: 18 Jul 92 03:07:56 GMT
Organization: University of South Florida, Department of Computer Science and Engineering

The Amiga community is THRIVING here in Tampa, FL, and from e-mail discussions
seems to be moving well in Texas. I work for an Amiga retailer, and was hired
during a recent EXPANSION. System sales have picked up recently, despite all
the talk of gloom and doom. Lots of third party companies have been releasing
new Amiga products and revising old ones, including us. Commodore may be
trying to kill the Amiga through inaction, but it definitely survives despite
them.

--
-- Greg Stelmack (stelmack@eggo.csee.usf.edu)
-- FullTime Grad Student, PartTime Amiga Salesman, PartTime Amiga Developer
-- Author of: Spades, Pro Port Analyzer Plus, more to come...
-- DISCLAIMER: The opinions reflected here are mine and mine alone.
Xref: sparky comp.sys.amiga.advocacy:19283 comp.sys.amiga.hardware:13102