HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mlloyd@westmark.Stanford.EDU (Mike Lloyd)
Subject: Re: Choices ( was: Re: accidently out )
Organization: DSO, Stanford University
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 92 17:46:36 GMT

latarra@camelot.bradley.edu (Lisa Ehren) writes:
[on "choosing a lifestyle" not being contrary to seeing nature/nurture
as mostly nature]
: 
: Comments?  thoughts?  Flames?  Hugs <whimper whimper, beg beg>?

Comments?  Yes, I think you're right.
Thoughts? I think you put that rather well.
Flames?  Unless you mean the kitten (see elsewhere), you must be joking.
Hugs?  Well, *hug*, *hug*, *hug*!.

There.
Mike
-- 
Mike Lloyd, B0/1 h- f- t w- g+ k+ s m- e? |    "Bloody nose and burning eyes
      Retro-hippy, music nut, bi and      |  Raised in laughter to the skies"
          backrubber of devotion          |                 - Bruce Cockburn
               --The end of confusion is the beginning of death--
From: mlloyd@castle.ed.ac.uk (M Lloyd)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: KT (was Re: New Age Androgynous Bisexuals...)
Date: 6 Nov 92 02:51:15 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

cliveg@cix.compulink.co.uk writes:
>sa121@cl.cam.ac.uk (S. Arrowsmith) writes:
>> Well, that's all very well, and quite nice it sounds too, but what does
>> raving bisexuality do when it's *not* at home????
>
>Simple, he drinks tea in other people's homes of course!
>
>Honestly Sion, you know what a mad impetuous raver Kay is -- 
>especially with a cup of tea and a chocolate digestive.

Yes, I can see it now; I attempt to tempt Kay with a come-on like "Bring
your own chocolate hob-nobs and I'll provide lashings of lapsang souchong,"
whereupon the police intervene to stop this impromptu "rave" from taking
place.  However, like all such raves, if it's stopped in one venue, it
just pops up somewhere else later ...

hugs
Mike, who's about to go put the kettle on
-- 
Mike Lloyd, B0/1 h- f- t w- c g+ k+ s m- e? |"Bloody nose and burning eyes
      Retro-hippy, music nut, bi and        | Raised in laughter to the skies"
          backrubber of devotion            |     - Bruce Cockburn
    "It's only knock and knowall, but I like it" - Genesis (the first one)
From: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: "what other people think" (was Re: New Age Androgynous Bisexuals...)
Date: 12 Nov 92 16:57:45 GMT
	<1992Nov12.192346.24426@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
Organization: Natural Language Incorporated
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
In-reply-to: sconley@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu's message of 12 Nov 92 19:23:46 GMT

In article <1992Nov12.192346.24426@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> sconley@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Stephen M Conley) writes:
>In article <BxIH13.87t@newcastle.ac.uk> J.W.Harley@newcastle.ac.uk (Jon Harley)
> writes:

>>PC-speak might be stupid if we were all liberated, but we're not.
>>What other people think about me does matter.

>Then you will be oppressed by it as long as it matters to you.  You've
>guaranteed your own oppression.  Have fun.

Look.  I go for a job interview.  The person hiring says "well, I just
don't think women can be good programmers, since they really aren't as
good at logical things as men" and therefore refuses to hire me.  What
use is it to me whether I care what this person thinks?  I'm still
screwed over, whether I claim to care what they think or not.  How did I
"guarantee my own oppression?"

I go out for a walk, wearing my freedom rings.  Some guys see me, decide
that "what I really need is a man," attack me and rape me.  Are you
claiming this would not happen if I "didn't care what they thought?"

What other people think *matters* because it translates into *action*.
This can be positive or negative action, depending on what their
thoughts are, but I assure you that people's thoughts *do* influence
their actions, and their actions *can* affect other people.

More than that, when people express their ideas, that *can* influence
the ideas of other people, especially, say, their children.  "What other
people think" has a lot to do with the world we are living in now and
the world we will be living in in the future.  If we can affect "what
other people think" in a way we consider positive, we can affect our
world in a positive way as well.

Acknowledging that "what other people think" *can* and *does* affect
your life is *NOT* the same as saying that your thoughts and feelings
are always influenced by theirs. 

Muffy


--

Muffy Barkocy                               muffy@mica.berkeley.edu
~Weavers' fingers flying on the loom/patterns shift too fast to be
 discerned/all these years of thinking/ended up like this/in front
 of all this beauty/understanding nothing~ - Bruce Cockburn
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: tweaver@nyx.cs.du.edu (T.C.Weaver)
Subject: Re: PC (was Re: New Age Androgynous Bisexuals...)
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 04:25:34 GMT

 mlloyd@westmark.Stanford.EDU (Mike Lloyd) writes:
>gtoal@ibmpcug.co.uk (Graham Toal) writes:

>: Worse, because it is forced
>: and artificial, it makes you seem out of touch and a woolly-minded
>: liberal who people won't take seriously (for instance, any time Tanaqui
>: does one of her ke/kir-filled posts, I delete it unread as pretentious
>: twaddle, even though I like tanaqui and usually otherwise read her posts)

>a clear-thinking liberal who takes the time to be different, in my book.
>As for junking Tanaqui's posts because of a stylistic feature you
>dislike, well, it's a free net, but I think that makes you crazy.

I am an English graduate. I think that there is a need for a neutral-gender
pronoun, and so I use one. When have I ever exhorted people to use it? I
don't use the common sie/hir, because my Middle English studies taught me
to read "hir" as "her", so I use Mary Gentle's pronouns.

I expect to hear Graham plead for the return of "gay" as a word meaning
"happy" without any homosexual connotations after his little anti-change
tirade. I hope that in his sophisticated and no doubt interminable
deliberations on linguistic study, he has found time to read _Language Change:
Progress or Decay_, a standard work?

Of course, if Graham junks ke/kir stuff, he will have dumped the thread he
started. <shrug> It's catching on with some people who find a pronoun 
declined with nominative "ke" and all other cases "kir" simple, easy and
efficacious.

Tanaqui

Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: elf@halcyon.com (Elf Sternberg)
Subject: Re: New Age bisexuals
Originator: elf@halcyon.com
Reply-To: elf@halcyon.com (Elf Sternberg)
Organization: Pendor, UnLtd.
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 23:37:55 GMT

In article <memo.731852@cix.compulink.co.uk>
     cliveg@cix.compulink.co.uk (Clive Grace) writes:

>In-Reply-To: <73490@hydra.gatech.EDU>
>     li40163@prism.gatech.EDU (Mary A. Axford)

>>         There should have been a smiley after the raspberry on my
>> last post.  I really don't mean to sound angry with people
>> like Elf and Graham, both of whom I like though haven't met...
>> just a disagreement.

   *Gryn*  'Sokay.  I like ya, Mary, and you too, Clive.  I was just
ranting and raving after a steamingly mad evening where I was informed
that I "was just part of the patriarchy" 'cause I'm a hardnosed
agnostic...

>I hope Elf gets that message before he responds to your raspberry.

   *Snuggles* and *Licks* to both of ya...

            Elf !!!

-- 
      __        | The post you have just read is real, but it could
      \/        | have been avoided.  Inbreeding is every-one's
Elf Sternberg   | problem.  Contact your local Mormon church to be
elf@halcyon.com | sure you aren't marrying a close relative.
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: iw@tosser.Rational.COM (The_Devine_Dolly)
Subject: Re: This has probably already been asked...
Organization: Rational
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 16:39:34 GMT

rsr@soda.berkeley.edu (Roy S. Rapoport) writes:

>It _seems_ that gay men just don't have the "Eww, you sleep with the enemy"
>type of reaction ... Probably because gay men _usually_ don't seem to
>consider women as the enemy, whereas some lesbians, more than gay men, seem
>to consider motos as the enemy.  Of course, considering lesbians as a
>radical version of the 'average' bisexual woman, that seems to be a fairly
>correct statement.


I think often it boils down to the power differential between
men and women.  As has been said before here, gay men don't seem 
to be as predjudiced because they are not threatened by women, whereas
lesbians are very threatened because they believe a bi woman is very
likely to run of with a man, for all those financial security two
kids, 1.2 dogs and 3.1 gold fish kinds of reasons.

Iseult.
From: tal@plts.uucp (Tom Limoncelli)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: tackling the bible
Date: 8 Nov 1992 23:12:26 -0500
Organization: P.L.T.S., North Plainfield, New Jersey, USA
Distribution: soc
NNTP-Posting-Host: plts.uucp

In <1992Nov7.172243.10800@leland.Stanford.EDU> mlloyd@westmark.Stanford.EDU (Mike Lloyd) writes:

>tal@plts.uucp (Tom Limoncelli) writes:
>: 
>: Well, the new testament NEVER mentions homosexuality.  

>Oh no?  What about the constant references in John's gospel to "the
>disciple Jesus loved," normally presumed to be John, eh?

Ok, ok!  It never mentions homosexuality being BAD.

However, after Jesus had been crucified, two disciples were walking on
the road to Damascus where they met a man, took him home and had dinner
with him.  After he had left, they realize that it had been Jesus.
Jesus arose the next day.

Well, if you read the passage carefully, the two diciples lived
together.  Back then, if you lived together, you were married.  This
begs the questions:

    1 -- Was one of the diciples a female?
   (Women can't be Catholic priests because none of the diciples were women)
    2 -- Was this a same-sex couple?
   (we know how the Catholic Church feels about homosexuals)

If nobody can explain this, I'm going to have to ask about it on
soc.religion.christian!

Tom
-- 
Tom Limoncelli -- tal@plts.uucp (home) -- tal@warren.mentorg.com (work)
"TUESDAY, NOVEMBER THIRD" is an anagram for "MANY VOTED, BUSH RETIRED!!!"
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: cliveg@cix.compulink.co.uk (Clive Grace)
Subject: Re: Images in the media
Reply-To: cliveg@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 17:54:00 +0000


> Last night, I saw the BBC production of `Oranges are not the Only
> Fruit' based on Jeanette Winterson's book (It's about a lesbian growing
> up in Lancashire). It was the first time that I have ever watched a
> film with lesbian characters that were real.

In a fit of self-righteous self-indignation, the Daily Mail (In my 
opinion, a nasty collection of gutter press journalism masquerading 
as a quality newspaper) cobbled together an article "I am not a 
Lesbian" - Says  'Oranges are not the Only Fruit' Star. That hit the 
bin faster than I could read the rest of the paper and I never *ever* 
read that paper again -- even for my work purposes. I agree Vashti, 
she was an excellent actress and played the part well, but like the 
book, I felt it was quite cartoon-like in its depiction of the 
Lancashire God squad.

My father (who is a classic indication of what the British people 
watch) watched it *very* carefully  -- probably because it had 
"lessies in it", and most of us know about het male fascination with 
Lesbians...

> made me think that if the world could see more things like this, the
> GLB cause would really be advanced. 

Mmmm ...and the het world would be titilated as well, like some of my 
officemates reactions to a film called "Rosebud" a story of a young 
Woman's realization of Lesbian feelings -- recently broadcast as part 
of the "Out on Tuesday" film series. A couple of sex scenes in that 
got them all steamed up as well...

> The film was shown at a film festival which is why the censors were
> happy to allow it through. I guess they reckon that a once-off audience
> of 100 people is not going to corrupt the morals of the whole country.
> The censorship in this country has lightened up with respect to
> violence and heterosexual sex (but with the usual double standards,
> female nudity is fine, male nudity isn't) but I saw in the newspaper
> that shops that are importing GLB books from overseas are having a lot
> of problem getting them through customs, even books on safe sex. It
> really makes me angry.

Aaaarrgghhhh <FX: sound of head being bashed into keyboard> The safe 
sex manuals come under the same morality laws?. Oh give me a break! 
So how do AIDS sufferers get on in South Africa? Oh, there aren't any 
people with AIDS there are there? Like until recently China had no 
Homosexuals either, now they have... what is it? Five?

It really makes *me* angry as well Vashti...
+-------------------------------------------+--------------------------+
| "When I grow up, I want to give up being  |cliveg@cix.compulink.co.uk|
| a Journalist and learn how to write..."   |cliveg@cix.compulink.uucp |
+-------------------------------------------+--------------------------+

Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: MJW19@phx.cam.ac.uk (Michael Williams)
Subject: Re: .sig
Reply-To: MJW19@phx.cam.ac.uk (M.J. Williams)
Organization: The National Society for the Inversion of Cudddly Tigers
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 22:39:45 GMT

In article <1992Nov11.215823.7915@infodev.cam.ac.uk> SA121@phx.cam.ac.uk (S. Arrowsmith) writes:
>address of aber.ac.uk and following up to Mike Williams its not hard to
                                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Arrrggghhh!! ge/ike/ichael/ 8-)

[ apologies, private joke ]

>--
>\S
>SA121@phx.cam.ac.uk   | There's nowt |"And in this moment, I need to be needed
>sarrowsm@nyx.cs.du.edu| so queer as  |"When my self-esteem is sinking,
>                      | folk....     |"I like to be liked" -- Peter Gabriel

Mike. aka Michael Williams, but not Mike Williams, hokay?
--
____________________________________________________________________________
\  /  / Michael Williams                     Part II Computer Science Tripos
|\/|\/\ MJW19@phx.cam.ac.uk                          University of Cambridge
|  |(__)Cymdeithas Genedlaethol Traddodiad Troi Teigrod Mwythus Ben I Waered
From: s882916@otto (Vikki POLLARD)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: thanks for the hugs
Date: 11 Nov 92 06:21:58 GMT
Organization: RMIT Computer Centre
NNTP-Posting-Host: otto.bf.rmit.oz.au

 Have I said thank you to you all for the hugs you sent? I often send mail
to soc.bi but it just as often gets lost somewhere along the line so I forget
what I sent. So i'll say thanks once again. It made me feel better but i'm
still a bit depressed. It's a new graduate kind of thing I think. But my
lover and I told each other we love each other for the first time today, 
over e-mail no less. So I feel a WHOLE LOT better knowing there's one 
more person out there that loves me.


Vikki
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------all hugs thouroughly appreciated.
__________________________________________________________________________
From: thom@crayfish.ucsd.edu (Thom Cleland)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: No one ever sends me any hugs
Date: 8 Nov 1992 06:20:44 GMT
Organization: Tenuous at best
NNTP-Posting-Host: crayfish.ucsd.edu

In article <BxDqFo.F8y@ibmpcug.co.uk> gtoal@ibmpcug.co.uk (Graham Toal) writes:
>>Now that's some hug!  Can the voucher also be redeemed for hugs to
>>right-side-up people?
>
>Actually, I think it's significant that the first person to spot that I'd
>done it upside down was <down-under>.  Maybe they *do* all stand on their
>heads :-)   If it really rankles you I blasted it through an editor macro
>to reverse line-order, and swap (){}_~ for )(}{|_  -- copies on request :-)
>
well, I'm sort of down under, at least as down under as the States allow
one to become.  ;^)  Far from rankling me, I was impressed; it brings
pleasant thoughts to mind.  

But please do post it to the next hug-requiring net.friend.  I'll keep
an eye out.  ;^)

Thom

>G
>-- 


-- 
Thom Cleland     \ /^^/  >Neural systems/network physiology< >Amigaphile<  
(619) 453-7516    \OO/  >Aoinagi Shito-ryu == bend, and the wind passes <
tcleland@ucsd.edu  ++  >B3 f cdv g++ k+(+) m s+ r+ p growl+ purr++ zzz- <
"Wild magic is graven in every rock, every tree, in every blade of grass"
From: cjmchale@dsg.cs.tcd.ie (Ciaran McHale)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: New Age Androgynous Bisexuals...
Date: 6 Nov 92 11:28:38 GMT
Organization: DSG, Dept. of Computer Science, Trinity College Dublin

In <Bx5r3r.2Gu@ibmpcug.co.uk> gtoal@ibmpcug.co.uk (Graham Toal) writes:
>kraig@athena.cs.uga.edu (Kraig Count) writes:
>>Not all people who belive in tarot or astrology are new age 
>>fanatics.  Granted, most of the people you run across in 
>
>No, but they're still raving nutters whatever brand of lunacy
>they adhere to.

What is it with you, Graham? Lately you seem to have gotten into a
"let's be obnoxious to court flames and, when the soc.bi cabal flames
me, whine that nobody has a sense of humour" mode.

Well I hate to disappoint you so fuck off.

Now I guess that makes it your turn to whine some more :-)
                                                       ^^^
						       See, I _do_ have
						       a sense of humour

Ciaran.
-- 
---- Ciaran McHale (cjmchale@dsg.cs.tcd.ie)
\bi/ Department of Computer Science, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland.
 \/  Telephone: +353-1-7021539 FAX: +353-1-6772204
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: kraig@athena.cs.uga.edu (Kraig Count)
Subject: Re: Finally Doing It ... Coming Out
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 19:26:31 GMT

In article <1ddgn3INNkoh@agate.berkeley.edu> rsr@soda.berkeley.edu (Roy S. Rapoport) writes:
>Frankly, being closeted to my parents is hurting our relationship, because I
>feel that I need to hide from them ... hide myself, hide my activities, hide
>my friends.  And I'm tired of it.  It's hurting me, because I want to talk
>with them, and it's hurting them because they worry about me.

Being closeted from anybody that you are either close to or spend a 
lot of time with is always painful.  It hurts when you have to watch
everything you say and do.

>A) Let it drop in during a casual conversation
>   ("Oh, and so I met him, and he's _so_ cute ...")
>B) Sit them down for a talk
>   ("Mom, dad, sit down please....")

I wouldn't suggest B.
But that is because of the fact that when
I came out to my mother, I thought that she would take it well.
We had always talked about anything that was bothering either 
one of us and we had always told exactly what was on our minds.
So that when I decided to tall her about my being Bi I thought that
she would handle it alright.  However, as soon as I sat her down and
started to tell her I knew that something was different about this
talk.  *sigh*  Afterm I had come out to her she immediatly started to 
tell me all of the stereotypes. (i.e. Its only a phase, You can't 
be both Gay and Straight, and my least favorite "All You Really Need
is a Good Woman and you will Forget this BULLSHIT").
Needless to say, our relationship has been very different since then.
In fact as a result of this coming-out, i have decieded NOT to tell
anybody else in my family.

I still talk to her, and in fact due to a finacial shortfall even live
with her, but I am even more in the closet arround her then I ever
was before.

I can't say that your parents will react in any way like my mother,
but you should know that in this area, past performance dosn't seem
to be a good judge of how they will react. *sigh*

IMHO, you should still tell them, I would go with just waiting
for a good point in a conversation and then bringing it up.

If it makes a differece, my friends seem to have hadled it 
alright,  even the friend who is a fudimentalist christian.
Although, he always has been very open minded.

Hope it goes well.

Later,

Kraig

>God, I'm scared.  I hope I don't lose my guts by the time thanksgiving comes
>around the corner ...
>
>-roy

I know the fear, hope that your coming out goes well.

Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: gtoal@ibmpcug.co.uk (Graham Toal)
Subject: Re: New Age Androgynous Bisexuals...
Organization: The IBM PC User Group, UK.
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 13:46:35 GMT

In article <1992Nov6.233741.15028@nwnexus.WA.COM> elf@halcyon.com (Elf Sternberg) writes:
>   Howzabout an obnoxious anarcho-capitialist bisexual sadomasochist
>polyamorist who's actually a killer Tarot card reader?  Yes, I admit
>it, I'm really good with the Thoth and (preferred) Palladini decks...

Jeez, after the way you've been laying into New Agers, that's crass
hypocrisy.  Tell me, do you actually believe in even any small way
whatsoever that you're getting any information out of reading Tarot
cards that you couldn't get just by talking to the person, or do
you just do it as a joke?  Really, I want to know.  I haven't worked
out if most 'intellgent' people do this Tarot stuff because it's
considered cool by their peer group or because they're suffering some
debilitating mental illness.

G
--
From: moragw@castle.ed.ac.uk (Alloy Serving Woman)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: accidently out
Date: 11 Nov 92 16:35:51 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University


       Well, here goes.
     I have a very close and friendly relationship with my mother and a
sociable one with my father and I feel they are almost as open-minded as
me at times, but I had no need to come out to them as I felt that I was
_me_, not my sexuality, and it didn't seem relevant.  It didn't really
bother me.

On Friday night mum and dad arrived at my flat unexpectedly (and
therefore apologetically) as they were just passing through the city
briefly and despite the surprise it was lovely to see them, especially
as for once nothing inappropriate was going on.  They sat in my room
admiring the prints and photos upon the walls and I tootled off to make
coffee. By the kettle I suddenly had a mental image of the wall they
were admiring, the one with the very pink BLOGs poster with upcoming
events underlined....They'd seen it of course.

Back in my room mum and I chattered away, seemingly oblivious to my
father whose gaze was fixed firmly on the poster with a peculiar look
on his face.  He re-entered the conversation and carried on as per
usual.  Every thing felt quite surreal and I suppose if he'd leapt up in
a rage demanding an explanation or if they'd talked distractedly and
left hurridly it would have seemed more believable.  Ignoring it
completely threw me.

When they left, after big hugs and dad's usual contribution to the poor
student daughter fund, I felt really unnerved.  They know about me and
they're politely leaving me to talk about it if I want to, not forcing
me or anything, which is great, I suppose.  So why does it feel so
stomach churningly weird ?  Don't know what else to say, just wanted to
share my feelings, maybe get some reassurances.

						Mo