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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 07:11:53 EST
From:         K=A*T <MEC038@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Reflections on the Iraqi situation ...
              22 Jan 1993 11:14:39 PST from <jfisher@NETXWEST.COM>

On Fri, 22 Jan 1993 11:14:39 PST Jonathan Fisher said:

>> But as far as I know their cases have not been reviewed on an
>> individual basis.  I am not even sure if their membership has
>> been proven in a court of law but they definitely haven't been
>> convicted of specific crimes.

>The point of the expulsion is that these people admitted freely that
>they are members of the Hamas.  I've already ranted against the Hamas.
>The fact that they didn't get a fair hearing in court doesn't distance
>them from the terrorist organization to which they claim to belong.

Couple of points here: 1) I am not sure if Israel wants to be
known for deporting people just because they belong to an
organization, and 2) my understanding of the story was different.
Maybe a few (or many) DID confess (or brag) to belonging to that
organization but it surely couldn't have been Israel's standard
for this deportation.  For, dozens of them were deported mistakenly --
according to the Israeli government.  Now how on earth could the
mistaken people have confessed to being a member of the Hamas?

>> Come on.  That is a technicality isn't it?  In the first place
>> they are there illegally.  Israel dumped them illegaly.  (You
>> know Lebanon is not dumping ground for Israel.)

>Surely, Israel dumped them there.  The question of legality is a judgement
>call.  In Israel, it's obvious that the dumping wasn't illegal.  Their
>Supreme Court upheld the legality of it.

You are right, the question of legality IS a judgment call.
Too bad the Israeli's judgment is that such a horrendous and
inhumane act is legal, but that doesn't mean much to me or
to the international community.  I am sure Iraqi's invasion
of Kuwait was legal according to the Iraqi legal system too,
but that didn't stop the international community to level them
to rubbles.  There is no question that Israel violated international
laws when they violated Lebanon's border/sovereignty.

>The point, which you didn't address, is that these people are in
>Lebanon proper.  Regardless of how they got there, they are in Lebanon.
>Why isn't Lebanon getting static for not allowing the Red Cross in?

There is no point to address.  (If you mean acknowledging, I think
I HAVE acknowledged that they are in Lebanon's proper.)  Israel
put those people there illegally, they have to go and get them
and in the process she will be humiliated.  I have been wondering
why Lebanon hasn't done this even sooner.  I have been asking
my Lebanese friend the same question for 7 years now.

(One interesting side effect of this is that Israel might never
be able to deport Palestinians any more, but we will see.)

>> --KAT
>Jonathan
>
>P.S.
>Kuwait dumped hundreds of thousands of palestinians after the gulf war,
>where was the critism?  Egypt expelled the Hamas in the '80s, where was
>the critism?  Jordan kicked the PLO out of their country in the '80s ('70s)
>where was the critism?  There were no UN resolutions.  There was no
>world-wide condemnation.  What is going on here?  Heck, Syria owns Lebanon.
>It has occupied Lebanon since '75, where is the critism?  Where are the
>UN resolutions?

But meanwhile we have been hearing the Israelis bragging that
they are better than all the countries in the region.  I guess
that wasn't true.  You keep to ignore one additional point.
Had this transfer been with the consent of Lebanon, this would
have been just one crime (against the Palestinians) but Israel
violated the Lebanon's right.  Please address that.

A couple of points though: 1) not that I approve of it but the
Palestinians in Kuwait were not citizens of Kuwait, 2) My Christian
Lebanese friend admits that they would like to have Syria in there,
but that is only one person's opinion, maybe we shouldn't take
it too seriously.

Do you see where you are going with this?  Most people who say, "we
interfered in the Kuwaiti-Iraqi situation, why don't we do the
same thing with the Serbian-Bosnian situation?" are dead against
BOTH Iraq and Serbia.  However it seems to me you are either
supporting Israel while condemning Kuwait, Jordan, Egypt, etc.
or supporting all of them.  (I kinda suspect it is the former.)

So what is next?  Serbia is cleansing the area of moslems, so
Israel could start the same thing and when criticized, people
would say, "....but we didn't do any thing to the Serbians."

--KAT  (I got a great idea for our nuclear waste.  As long as
        we dump them in the Israeli territory, it would become
        their problem.  But then again I bet Israel would turn
        around and dump it in Lebanon.)
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