From: Frank.ODwyer@ap.mchp.sni.de (Frank O'Dwyer)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: What REALLY pisses me off about Fundies
Date: 11 Nov 1992 04:50:53 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu


Mr Nyikos was kind enough to email me a copy of the article to which I am
responding, as my newsserver is out of action at the moment (again!).  

I wish to respond in order to correct some misapprehensions which may arise
from Nyikos' article, which makes incorrect implications about my own view,
and about the facts of the Irish 'X' case.

In talk.abortion nyikos@milo.math.scarolina.edu (Peter Nyikos) writes:
#In <1992Nov4.144046.11130@netcom.com> bskendig@netcom.com (Brian Kendig) writes:
#>And as for rape: "possibly"?  Please explain.
#
#Good question.  I've been quizzing Frank ODwyer about the famous Irish
#Supreme Court case, and he cannot rule out the possibility that the
#"rape" involved was STATUTORY rape, the child being simply underage.

THE FACTS OF 'X' ARE NOT AS IMPLIED ABOVE:

1) The decision in the 'X' case depends in no, way, shape or form on the fact
that the girl was raped.

2) There is NO exception in the Irish constitution which allows a woman to
obtain an abortion if she was raped, nor is it planned to introduce such an
exception, and nor does the Irish Supreme Court decision set any precedent in
this respect.

3) The Irish Supreme Court decision DOES set a precedent whereby abortion is
legal if there is a threat to the life of the mother from SUICIDE.  The
current set of proposed amendments to the constitution is designed to reverse
the court's decision "in this respect, and no other".

The amendments are likely to be passed.  If the amendment on the so-called
"substantive issue" is not passed, then the Goverment will legislate on the
basis of the court's decision, and abortion will be legal in cases where the
mother is suicidal as result of her pregnancy.  Neither the legislation nor
the proposed amendments have anything to do with rape.

Also, whether or not the amendments are passed, and no matter what kind of
abortion is ever legalised in Ireland, Irish women will continue to go to
England for abortions, as they always have.  This will continue to happen
for a long time because the country has long ago lost Irish women's trust.


MY VIEW IS NOT AS IMPLIED ABOVE:

In an email exchange, Mr. Nyikos raised the possibility that 'X' was not in
fact raped.  I said that as she was 14, she was _certainly_ a victim of
statutory rape.  I also said that I personally had no doubt that she was
raped in the same sense as an adult woman (or man) can be raped.

And one is forced to wonder: why does Mr. Nyikos find this possibility
relevant?  The girl could have been raped, and probably was.  Even if she
wasn't, this should not be any obstacle to her obtaining an abortion.  Mr
Nyikos _appears_ to be arguing that not only should certain abortions be
illegal, but that rape should not be a valid exception.  How on earth can
this proposal be taken seriously by any reasonable person?

In 1983, we knew that someday an Irish 14-year old would be raped and become
pregnant, and wish to have an abortion.    We were told by the pro-lifers in
1983 that such a case was a million to one against.  We were told that "hard
cases make bad law".  We were told that no pregnant woman would be prevented
from leaving the country.  We were told that information on services legally
available elsewhere would not be suppressed.

We were told lies.  Why _must_ we wait, as we _did_ wait in Ireland, until an
_actual_ case of rape occurs before we begin to think about our obligations
to a pregnant rape victim - to any woman in fact?

During the debate on Maastricht (which in Ireland revolved in large part
around the abortion issue) at least one pro-lifer (it wasn't Peter Nyikos
:-)) went from door to door and insinuated that 'X' was "not raped at all",
and was in fact "going out with some Arab".  This last peculiar racist
statement coming from a woman, and being aimed at women, makes me despair.

The 'X' case is sometimes referred to as "Attorney General vs. X", which can
be translated as "Irish state vs. raped, pregnant, humiliated, traumatised
and frightened young girl".  Why does an image of a butterfly being broken on
a wheel come to mind?

#Peter Nyikos

Frank O'Dwyer
--
Frank.ODwyer@ap.mchp.sni.de   "You take slaves when you make us free,
                               when you make us free your way"
                             World Party - 'Ain't going to come til I'm ready'
                   
Newsgroups: talk.abortion