HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dmkasten@redorc.chi.il.us (Bowie Poag)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Massive display sizes & good quality for cheap.
Date: 7 Jan 93 20:39:14 CST
Organization: Red Oracle Bbs/Network


Someone mentioned earlier that very large displays are often as impractical as
they are expensive.. While in terms of straight computer -monitors-, I agree,
but let me tell you a little story:


About 2 years ago, I walked into one of those big wholesale stores (Maybe youve
been in one.. like a gigantic warehouse of stuff bought in bulk..).. I picked
up a 21" Flatscreen Toshiba television for $279. DAMN fine picture, onscreen
color controls, cable-ready, remote, the works..

Then I discovered it had a little port on the back marked "Video IN". :)  Its
for people hooking up VCRs and such, just run a line straight into the TV....
This also put a smile on my face because I could then use my Amiga 2000
workstation with it..

So, gathering up enough strength to firmly plant this 30-some-odd-pound black
cube of a television ontop of my Amiga, plugging in my A520 RGB-->Composite
Video Adapter and running the line into the back of the television, and turning
on the power to the whole mess revealed a stunning revelation. FLICKER FREE
DISPLAY. Thats right, 21" screen, GREAT picture, and NO FLICKER. The detail is
so crisp on this monitor that I can often distinguish color changes from pixel
to pixel.

This television has a physical display size of 670 X 436 (obtained this by
sizing my Workbench with Overscan in the Prefs drawer) so that the borders of
the screen matched the square borders of the picture tube. As a result, due to
composite video having an almost "naturally dithering" effect, a high-quality
HAM image is all but virtually indistinguishable from pure 24-bit. A standard
8-point system font like Topaz is still very readable in high resolution (Thats
80 X 52 text!)  from a distance of about 15 feet (Roughly the distance between
my Amiga and my bed..)   I often find myelf lying in bed and periodically
hitting the "Video" button on the remote to check the progress of my term
program downloading stuff, and flipping back to watch TV while I wait.... :)

a 21" monitor/television/flicker-fixer all in one box for $279. Not bad!



        +-----------------------------------------------------------+
        |o|              I think, therefore I Amiga.              |=|
        +-----------------------------------------------------------+
        | Douglas Michael Kasten (DMK) | Amiga 2000HD/5 with a tiny |
        |  dmkasten@redorc.chi.il.us   | little 21" Toshiba monitor.|
        +------------------------------+----------------------------+
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: roberts@g2syd.genasys.com.au (Robert Swan)
Subject: Re: CBM mention on 12/11/92 Computer Chronicles
Organization: Genasys II, Sydney, Australia
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 21:51:57 GMT

Just to join the fray briefly here...

In article <1993Jan6.151225.20783@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> jerry@msi.com (Jerry Shekhel) writes:
>E.A. Story (eas3714@ultb.isc.rit.edu) wrote:
>:
>: Again, you ignore his main point.. but then again, you ALWAYS ignore
>: the main point.  The fact is, VM entails an interactive perforance
>: hit... whether that's detrimental to you depends on what you're doing
>: with your system, and your tolerance.
>:
>
>Nonsense.  If you take two systems with *equal RAM*, running the same
>set of applications, and one system has VM, the only "performance" hit
>in that system is the MMU overhead, which is negligible.

If this is so then why does a simple sieve of Eratosthenes hunting
primes less than 1000000 run for 3 seconds - real time - on our
HP9000/847 (~60 mips machine) and for 4 seconds on my A3000 (which
should be about an order of magnitude slower)?  The cpu usage was
minimal on the HP - the delay was paging in a megabyte of VM.  My Amiga
has a piddling 6MB (no relation) of RAM, the HP 96MB (also no relation).
Now, can you back up your assertion?

BTW, I clearly couldn't run this program on the Amiga to find the primes
< 50,000,000, and could run it on the HP thanks to VM.  But when I did
run it (allocating and using 50MB) it _killed_ the system for all users.
Why?  ... It ran for over 40 minutes.  The algorithm is O(n), so why did it
not run for 50*3 seconds?  The answer in both cases is VM.

VM is great if you want it....  but don't kid yourself (or anybody else)
that it costs nothing.

Noone's asking you to like (let alone use) an Amiga.  I like mine, and
continue to consider it the most interesting single user system around.
Feel free to enjoy the (IMHO) duller systems if you want.  You've not
convinced me though, and you lose credibility by posting such fallacious
statements.


Have fun,

Robert.
-- 
I used to be indecisive,   | Robert Swan, roberts@g2syd.genasys.com.au
but now I'm not so sure.   | Genasys II Pty. Ltd., North Sydney.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: das9674@ucs.usl.edu (Stephenson Daniel A)
Subject: Re: To VM or not to VM?
Organization: Univ. of Southwestern La., Lafayette
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 23:19:54 GMT

In article <1993Jan6.200547.17217@seas.gwu.edu> gerald@seas.gwu.edu (Gerald G. Washington) writes:
>abuhr@owlnet.rice.edu (Aaron M. Buhr) writes:
>>     The Amiga advocates' argument against VM seems ...
>
>... unreasonable, since the Amiga has VM.

You logic fails.  They do not say that they do not have
VM, but they they (have it and) do not want it.

Go figure.
>-- Gerald
-- 
Dan Stephenson   das9674@usl.edu 
"Even inferior PC demos seem to require more RAM than demos for the Amiga 500"
                                                                -John Bickers
"You're probably right.  The Amiga OWNS the demo market." -Jerry Shekhel
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: kodak@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Jason 'KodaK' Balicki)
Subject: Re: RISC Amiga?
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 18:11:21 GMT

In article <1993Jan9.152234.28078@wam.umd.edu> rsrodger@wam.umd.edu (Yamanari) writes:
>
>	With everyone else fleeing Motorola's 68k, does anyone know
>	if commodore plans to get away from the 68k line to a new
>	chipset?

Who's fleeing the 68k line?  Apple?  Not likely, it'll be a while
for the PowerPC, and even then they'll keep the 68k line up to
see of the PowerPC sells.

>-- 
>      Blaming "society" for your problems is like blaming clouds for rain.
> ---  boycott == coercion == censorship == closed mindedness == cowardice  ---
>	      "Psalms 23:1  The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want."  
>		Shepherds are for sheep.   -----      Pain teaches.


--Jason Balicki
kodak@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: lindblad@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Jarkko Lindblad)
Subject: Re: Advocacy? What do you want for the Amiga?
Organization: University of Helsinki
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 22:42:36 GMT

Marc N. Barrett (barrett@iastate.edu) wrote:
> In article <1inccgINNqbh@flop.ENGR.ORST.EDU> dstuve@storm.CS.ORST.EDU (David Stuve) writes:

> >A word processor/database/drawing/spreadsheet/communications package?
> >How much would you be willing to pay for such a monster?
> 
>    $170.  That's how much MicroSoft Works costs.  I still say that it should
> be packaged with high-end and mid-range Amigas, since Apple packages 
> Claris Works with many of their systems.

And the word processor of this package is at least as good as Word for
Windows? And the spreadsheet is at least as good as Excel? And so on.
According to you everything that's below Word for Windows or Excel or
comparable products is not good enough.

-- 
Jarkko Lindblad         | sleep my friend and you will see
lindblad@cc.helsinki.fi | that dream is my reality
------------------------| they keep me locked up in this cage
          - MetallicA - | can't they see it's why my brain say rage
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: das9674@ucs.usl.edu (Stephenson Daniel A)
Subject: Re:  Don't let the Amiga Die (Part II)!!!
Organization: Univ. of Southwestern La., Lafayette
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 08:09:57 GMT

In article <mike.041c@struad.cts.com> mike@struad.cts.com (Michael Cianflone) writes:
>In article <1992Dec25.215547.26283@usl.edu> das9674@usl.edu (Stephenson Daniel A) writes:
>>In article <monster.05uh@mbear.apana.org.au> monster@mbear.apana.org.au (Martin Ozolins) writes:
>>>In article <1992Dec22.155058.20344@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> jerry@msi.com (Jerry Shekhel) writes:
>>>> 
>>>> You're pretty much correct about that, but things are changing.  For example,
>>>> many DOS games now require 386SX and up (they use 32-bit code), and the
>>>
>>>I thought it was due to poor programming which needed a faster CPU to cover it up
>>
>>You guys are hopeless.
>>
>>>Martin Ozolins :Internet monster@mbear.apana.org.au
>>--
>>Dan Stephenson                                         das9674@usl.edu  
>
>  It's because on the PC the processor has to do *everything* whereas on the
>Amiga the custom chips take a lot of the load. For the PC to have reasonable
>speed on good games it needs to use a very fast processor, but on the Amiga
>it can be done on a 68000.

Heh heh, except Wing Commander out for the Amiga, right?

How many colors DOES it use, anyway?
-- 
Dan Stephenson   das9674@usl.edu 
"It reminds me of something Cally said. 'He who trusts cannot be
betrayed, only mistaken.' It was a saying of her people.... Cally is
dead. So are most of her people." -Avon, from _Rescue_ (Blakes 7)
From: Ray_Hines@dream.uucp (Ray Hines)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Does reading this group make you depressed? The story of a victim.
Date: 6 Jan 93 12:00:47 GMT
Organization: DreamStates BBS & CyberNet HQ in G'ville, FL   1-904-331-4317

In a message dated Tue  5 Jan 93 13:41, Barrett@iastate.edu (marc N. Barret
wrote:

 BNB>    I doubt it would uplift me.  Even in Europe there is no CD-ROM or
 BNB> good productivity software available for the Amiga.

Sigh.  Here we go again.  Marc, do yourself a favor so you don't look like 
a fool and buy some Euro mags.  Read them carefully.

-- Via DLG Pro v0.995

* IF replying by MAIL, please reply to the addresses listed below...
--__-----------------------------------------------------------------------
 / /\     Raymond Hines              Internet: Ray_Hines%dream.uucp@ufl.edu
/_/  \  DreamStates BBS                    or: dream!Ray_Hines@ufl.edu
\ \  /   1-904-331-4317                  UUCP: uflorida!dream!Ray_Hines
 \_\/ FidoNet 1:3601/30  DreamStates: An Amiga supporting Amiga, Mac, IBM!
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: tmc@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA (Tim Ciceran)
Subject: Re: Byte A4000/A3000T-040 ReviewREFRESH
Organization: Brock University, St. Catharines Ontario
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 04:28:33 GMT

In article <1993Jan4.220613.2650@vax1.mankato.msus.edu> kickstart@vax1.mankato.msus.edu writes:

>What I was always curious about was, what percentage of 3000/4000 owners are
>first time Amiga owners?  It seems like all the people I knew who purchased
>them were just Amiga owners upgrading systems.  Is the number of users
>increasing, or is it just the same number of users continually buying a new
>machine every 4 years?
 
I'm sure that the same can be said for many PC, Mac and Atari users as
well. Sustaining market volume is the important thing, not questioning how
that market is comprised. In this respect, the PC is a bit of an enigma,
yet we have little knowledge of which PCs are sold to business and industry
and which are primarily used in the home. 

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: emcoop@bnr.ca (hume smith)
Subject: Re: Byte's Amiga 4000 review...
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada
	<1993Jan12.152201.9997@sol.ctr.columbia.edu>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 16:26:09 GMT

In article <1993Jan12.152201.9997@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> jerry@msi.com (Jerry Shekhel) writes:

   I find it incredibly hard to believe, for three reasons.  First, OS/2
   development started in 1984, before the Amiga was around.

does this mean their plans could not have changed in the meantime?

   Second, I've
   read two books about the making of OS/2; each mentions plenty of other
   operating systems; neither mentions AmigaOS.

two books is not all books.

   Third, this claim strongly
   resembles other claims made by Amiga buffs, who seem to believe that
   everybody, including giants like HP and SGI, have copied from and are
   competing with the Amiga.
--
Hume Smith                                    My name is little Bongo
hume.smith@acadiau.ca                         I sing my little song-go
emcoop@bnr.ca                                 Rhymes are hard to think of
                                              Except for made-up words like "flong-go"
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: gerald@seas.gwu.edu (Gerald G. Washington)
Subject: Re: To VM or not to VM?
Organization: George Washington University
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 00:19:47 GMT

barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N. Barrett) writes:
>gerald@seas.gwu.edu (Gerald G. Washington) writes:
>>abuhr@owlnet.rice.edu (Aaron M. Buhr) writes:
>>>     The Amiga advocates' argument against VM seems ...
>>
>>... unreasonable, since the Amiga has VM.
>
>   As standard software, as OS/2 and the Macintosh does?  No.  Does the Amiga
>have an unsupported third-party VM system available for it?  Yes.

What you say is true, but not such a big deal.  What is important is that
the Amiga's VM does work well.  The fact that the implementations are from
third-party developers (who do support their products) certainly does not
mean the products are not commercial quality.  GigaMem may go the way of
CrossDOS.

By the way, anyone know the exact date for that Babylon 5 show?  I need to
set the VCR.

-- Gerald
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: More Amiga OS weaknesses and strengths
From: martin@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU (Psigon Matrix....do you DOUBT us??)
Date: 6 Jan 93 16:40:28 -0600
Reply-To: martin@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
Organization: St. Cloud State University, St. Cloud, MN

In article <C0F5z7.A7A@news.iastate.edu>, barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N. Barrett) writes:
>In article <C0Et7p.GwA@starnine.com> mikeh@starnine.com (Mike Haas) writes:
>>In article <C0CJnH.4DL@news.iastate.edu> barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N. Barrett) writes:
>>>In article <C0CHqr.EEB@news.udel.edu> don@chopin.udel.edu (Donald R Lloyd) writes:
>>I've often wished the mac had the "Open Parent" capability on it's desktop
>>that WB 2.0 added.
>
>   I've been using 2.0 for a LONG time (since right after it became available),
>and I noticed that feature only just now.  Shows how often I use it.
>


Just to correct the original statement.  The mac does have open parent. You
hold down either the option or OA command key while clicking on the drag
bar at the top of the childs window that you want to go from.  


Jim
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Screeeemmmmmin fast 4000/040..YEEEEEEHA!!          X-ASOCC (CBM Blew that one)
          Jim Martin   MATRIX -- If it's made, we sell it. Almost.
  -----(612) 656-9693--                         MARTIN@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
      We're almost done with the Cray module for the EmPlanT.  :) heh
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mlelstv@specklec.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de (Michael van Elst)
Subject: Re: HELP--AMIGA OR IBM PC CLONE?
Keywords: Neuroses lobotomies penis envy spam spam spam humbug
Organization: Max-Planck-Institut f"ur Radioastronomie
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 17:01:44 GMT

In <1itb3sINN9m9@mozz.unh.edu> ggg@kepler.unh.edu (Gregory G Greene) writes:
>	Isn't $600 for a 16 bit sound card kind of expensive?  I mean, you can
>   get a Gravis Ultrasound which does the same for around $140.

The Sunrize card isn't just a 16bit sound card like the Ultrasound. F.e.
it features a digital signal processor for real-time effects.

Regards,
-- 
Michael van Elst
UUCP:     universe!local-cluster!milky-way!sol!earth!uunet!unido!mpirbn!p554mve
Internet: p554mve@mpirbn.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de
                                "A potential Snark may lurk in every tree."
From: bill@snoopy (Bill Poitras)
Subject: Re: CBM mention on 12/11/92 Computer Chronicles
Reply-To: bill@west.msi.com
Organization: Molecular Simulations, Inc.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 20:20:43 GMT

Jack Radigan (jprad@faatcrl.faa.gov) wrote:
: jerry@msi.com (Jerry Shekhel) writes:
: 
: >Yes, but VM can help you make the best use of your physical RAM (by swapping
: >out unused code).
: 
:   But how does the system "know" which code to swap out?  Is it the entire
: code segment for a program, or just sections of it?  

A 32-bit system which does "paging" swaps out sections of code that have
not been accessed recently.  The system keeps track of this.  On 386
systems a page is 4K.  The 286 swapped out segments which were upto 64K
in size.

:   If it's sections of a program you're after then an overlay manager sounds
: like a better bet since the application's author(s) would know best how to
: construct the overlay map for a minimal ram image during run time.

I disagree.  I think the operating system is much better at determining
which segments in which program have been used the least, and therefore
is better than overlays.  Your point might work for small programs, but
for programs megabytes in size, a VM demand paging system would be better
than determining the working set than a programmer.

--
+-----------------+-------------------------------+-------------------------+
| Bill Poitras    | Molecular Simulations Inc.    | Tel (408)522-9229       |
| (bill)          | Sunnyvale, CA USA             |                         | 
|                 | FAX (408)732-0831             | bill@west.msi.com       |
+-----------------+-------------------------------+-------------------------+

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: papresco@cantor.math.uwaterloo.ca (Paul Prescod)
Subject: Re: Bus Standards
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 09:35:41 GMT

>On the Amiga, system support exists for hypertext files.  A simple
>program could also add invisible support for ANIMs, which would both
>be handled by the same system of datatypes.
>
>It's not impossible on the Amiga.  In fact, due to advancements in the
>OS design of the Amiga, such an addition could actually be a
>smoothly-integrated counterpart to the AmigaGuide format.

I have never claimed that this couldn't be done on the Amiga.  I was
just explaining it's benefit.  BTW: Even if it COULD (and is, to a
certain extent) being done on the Amiga, CD-ROM is primarily an
information delivery medium.  If you are delivering information you
usually want to deliver it where it will have the largest
audience...not CDTV.

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: das9674@ucs.usl.edu (Stephenson Daniel A)
Subject: Re: HELP--AMIGA OR IBM PC CLONE?
Organization: Univ. of Southwestern La., Lafayette
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 05:47:02 GMT

In article <1993Jan10.112010.11073@athena.mit.edu> fihsu@athena.mit.edu (Hsu I-wei) writes:
>In article <1993Jan10.043322.7254@src4src.linet.org> scottw@src4src.linet.org (Scott Weintraub) writes:
>>First off, I want to say that about a week ago, I ordered my Gateway after
>>being a loyal Amiga advocate for many years.  Guys, they've caught up.  A
>>few months ago, we all agreed that HAM didn't cut it anymore and were pretty
>>excited about the AGA chipset which I can now say *STILL* doesn't cut it.
>>
>[stuff deleted]
>
>Yes, don't forget to note that the 7 slots in the A4000 are 32-bit (which
>is vaugely comparable to EISA). 8 of those 9 slots in the Gateway are as you
>said ISA, 16-bit.
>
>Ok, but the A4000 comes with one or two software packages itself. I forget what
>they are, but you fail to mention them for some reason.
>
>[more stuff deleted]
>>
>C= advertises that they have a 24-hour hotline.
>Yes, the Gateway or practically any other PC clone will give you more memory
>and a bigger harddrive for less money. They also offer stuff like 30-day
>trial period, two year warranties.. but that's a result of cutthroat
>competition. Imagine if IBM was the sole maker of PCs, and then see if you
>think they'd be selling PCs with price/performance comparable to Gateway.
>
>Do you consider Apple Macs to have alot of catching up to do? Their sales
>are excellent yet they're the worst of all when it comes to prices.

Umm, sorry, but was there supposed to be any content in your followup?

>>     /// AMIGA:            * Scott Weintraub - Long Island, NY     *   In
>>    ///  the computer for  * e-mail: scottw@src4src.linet.org      *DreAms i
>Francis
-- 
Dan Stephenson   das9674@usl.edu
"I'd rather have a kiss of my yellow gypsy's lips"
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: eas3714@ultb.isc.rit.edu (E.A. Story)
Subject: Re: CBM mention on 12/11/92 Computer Chronicles
Originator: eas3714@ultb
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 03:22:17 GMT

In article <1993Jan5.162612.22732@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> jerry@msi.com (Jerry Shekhel) writes:
>Gregory R Block (bloc1469@ee.ee.uwm.edu) wrote:
>: You'd be swapping out unused code, yes.  I contend that in
>: cpu-intensive applications, the overhead created by swapping brings
>: forth a NEED to avoid VM due to the INCREDIBLE, and that's a BIG one,
>: performance hit you take.
>:
>: Have you ever used a NeXT with 4mb of ram?  OS/2 with the minimum?
>
>Greg, so far this discussion has focused on what happens to a system when
>you add VM.  Why are you now talking about removing RAM chips?  Does one
>somehow imply the other?

Again, you ignore his main point.. but then again, you ALWAYS ignore
the main point.  The fact is, VM entails an interactive perforance
hit... whether that's detrimental to you depends on what you're doing
with your system, and your tolerance.

>: VM can bring systems to their knees.  And it does, regularly, for
>: people that cross over the boundaries of physical memory.
>
>Right, but if you try to cross over the boundaries of physical memory on
>a machine *without* VM, that machine will not only get down on its knees,
>it will get buried six feet underground.

Here you go again.  Maybe YOU program without checking return values
from functions, but most people don't.. and shouldn't.  Perhaps its not
a course in OS design you should be taking, but a course in applications
programming.  VM is NOT so you can be lazy and ignore failed memory
allocations.  Just to continue the analogy... You dig your *own* hole for 
yourself by not practicing good programming techniques. (hehe)

>: Generally, it's a combination of both.  I use interactive
>: applications, and I _DEMAND_ real-time response.  After all, I'm not
>: running some god-forsaken X-windows server.  Click.  wait.  wait.
>: wait.  wait.  Oh, look, the window opened.  I want real-time response
>: from a system, and real-time systems should deliver it.  VM impedes
>: that, there's no way around it.
>
>VM does not impede anything.  In fact, it can only show improved performance
                                               ^^^^
>over a non-VM system with the same amount of RAM.

You can't support that statement.  I'll leave it at that, since you probably
have read about (and ignored) the real-time performance of VM systems
too many times by now.  What kind of performance are you talking about?

-- 
"THAT is a DRY turtle.  That turtle is NOT moist!"
Ezra Story, a student at RIT, and
eas3714@ultb.isc.rit.edu, his trusty(?) mailing address.
From: alan@xserver.uts.amdahl.com (Alan Bomberger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: More Amiga OS weaknesses and strengths
Date: 5 Jan 93 18:10:14 GMT
Organization: Amdahl

Is not the PATH search on Icon launch a new feature
with 2.0x?  I may not have read all the 1.3 documentation
but I thought that with 1.3 you had to have the full
path name in the toolname.  

Sure it isn't always fair to bitch about "old problems"
but it will be several years before one can count on
PATH searches in all icon based launches.  

I remember a very annoying response one fellow in an old
development group used to give to "why doesn't X work?" 
questions.  He would often respond, I fixed that.  "When?"
Just this morning.  Sheeesh!
 

--