HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Mailer: Elm [revision: 66.25]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.slovak-l
Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 09:20:59 PST
From:         Joe Pannon <pannon@BCSFSE.CA.BOEING.COM>
Subject:      Re: First Vienna Awards

Dear Dr. Bauer:

Let me reflect on your message to Lubosh, if I may:

> I too wish that people could look forward and try to SOLVE the serious
> problems that exist in the world rather than scratching the sores to keep
> them festering for generations.
>
> I am much saddened when I watch people divert energies which SHOULD be used
> to SOLVE problems instead dissipate their energy by keeping real or imagined
> abuses alive.  I am at a loss to understand what motivates these people.

If you've been watching this list for a while, you must remember how the
discussion got to where it is now.  It started with the very current
problem of the Danube diversion when some of our Slovak friends started
to interpret objections to it By Hungarians as "yet another
manifestation of Hungarian revisionism", not in so many words.

I'm sure you know, that it is standard practice in psychotherapy to
force patients to confront their past traumas to cure what ails them
today.  I think this kind of approach is also useful with nations for
they also have past traumas to resolve.

I don't see much difference between your suggestion to suppress such
dealing with the past and what was the official policy over the last 40
some years in those countries.  If it didn't work then, what makes you
think it will work now?

Hungary and her neighbors are not the only ones who keep "harping" on the
past.  Israel is foremost among them.  Have you objected to that, too?

With regards,
Joe Pannon
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.slovak-l
Date:         Sun, 15 Nov 1992 12:43:38 EST
From:         "(Paul Hisem)" <pjh3@LEHIGH.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Slovak-Hungarian Conflicts

Marian Kubaska writes:

>there are slovaks, hungarians, poles... in SR.  But hungarians
>treat their right of selfdetermination in Hungary.  It is a quality
>of the nation not of person.  That doesn't mean that hungarians are
>second category people in S.  They have the same rights as Slovaks
>plus minority rights.

Just what are these minority rights?  I assume they are some sort of
protectionary regulations, against discrimination.  Can anyone clear this up?

Paul Hisem
Lehigh University
UC #29 Box 426
Bethlehem, Pa 18015
USA
email: PJH3@LEHIGH.EDU
From: Lubosh.Hanuska@anu.edu.au (Lubosh)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.slovak-l
Subject: Re: First Vienna Awards
Date: 15 Nov 92 22:37:08 GMT
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In article <9211102307.AA20413@atc.boeing.com> Joe Pannon,
pannon@BCSFSE.BOEING.COM writes:
>And Slovakia especially is in no position to take the moral highground
>from which to accuse Hungary with collaboration with Hitler!
Good heavens, folks, why can't we move away from history. Anyway, there
was enough wrong done during that period, and when Slovaks accuse the
Hungarians for collaboration with Hitler (or vice versa) it's like a
thief yelling 'Catch the thief!'
Both countries did collaborate with Germany and Italy, let's say maybe
they were not in the position of the bigger countries, and couldn't make
other choice without taking consequences... But let's concentrate on what
should be done now to improve the relations between us.
Regards,
Lubosh
From: Mysterious <unknown@uni.verse>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.slovak-l
Subject: Re: Nationalism and annointed spokespersons
Date: 18 Nov 1992 00:15:20 GMT
Organization: Society of Losers
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In article <199211112056.AA07520@metz.une.edu.au> George Antony,
gantony@METZ.UNE.EDU.AU writes:
>The only way out of the present bind is to create mutual trust.  This
involves
>a genuine effort to understand the "other side"; to respect, mutually,
>sensitivities; and to work together rather against each other.
I agree with that, but I'd like the fellow Hungarians also to do
something with those among themselves who still do not want to understand
that SLovakia today really is NOT Upper Hungary in spite that there IS a
problem of Hungarian minority in Slovakia. We should leave our
"historical" arguments behind once for all.
Regards,
Lubosh
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.slovak-l
Date:         Sun, 22 Nov 1992 12:18:52 -0500
From:         Igor Jurisica <juris@THOR.AI.TORONTO.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Roots of the Slovak-Hungarian Conflict

> Your analogy is also false, Lubosh, when comparing Hungarians in
> Slovakia to immigrants in the US or Canada.  This may sound reasonable
> comparison to American readers of this list, and I suspect they were
> your real target audience.  However, Hungarians ARE NOT IMMIGRANTS IN
> SLOVAKIA.  They are just as natives there as are the Slovaks!  The
> borders have changed.  That's quite different from the situation of
> immigrants who left their own native lands to settle in another country
> and thus can reasonably be expected to assimilate in their chosen new
> land.  That can not be reasonably expected from Hungarians within the
> Carpathian basin who have lived there for over 1,000 years.
> If you insist on using New World analogy, a more proper comparison of
> Hungarians in Slovakia would be with the French speaking citizens of
> Canada.  They, too, have lived in that land for about as long as the
> English speaking Canadians, and they also rightly reject the notion of
> English speaking Canadians that sounds very similar to what you are
> saying about Hungarians in Slovakia.
Comparing the New World to Europe is always difficult because of the
significat differences that exist. But:
1. Slovaks were on the Carpathian basin long time before Hungarians came.
   But as I said, the borders were always different so you cannot claim
   that because for 1K years Hungarians lived there it should be theirs.
   Why not consider 2.5K years a judge on that?
2. Example of French in CDN is missleading. Why did you not use the example
   of native people in US or CDN? (Slovaks were there well before Hungarians.)

Igor
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Mailer: Elm [revision: 66.25]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.slovak-l
Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1992 16:48:32 PST
From:         Joe Pannon <pannon@BCSFSE.CA.BOEING.COM>
Subject:      Hungarian signs irritants to Slovaks

I think the following Radio Free Europe news item is the one George
Antony referred to:

HUNGARY PROTESTS SLOVAK MOVE TO REMOVE HUNGARIAN SIGNS. State
Secretary Geza Entz said on 13 November 1992 that new orders by
Slovak Transportation Minister Roman Hofbauer to remove Hungarian
language village and city signs in communities populated by the
Hungarian minority are "harsh, provocative and injurious,"
reported MTI.  Entz protested against the systematic removal and
called for a halt to the campaign.  (Karoly Okolicsanyi, RFE/RL,
Inc.)
-------------------------------

I would only like to add, that the following news item does not refer to
situations with Hungarian signs only; it is about removing the Hungarian
part of dual language signs.  This is quite a contrast compared to what
one sees in Hungary where on every visit there I see more and more dual
signs in towns with mixed populations where the town is known by any
other name than Hungarian.

So what's wrong having Hungarian signs next to Slovak ones in towns like
Komarno, where the majority population is still Hungarian?

Joe Pannon
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Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 17:33:41 -0500
From:         GEORGE BAUER <BAUER@RCKHRST1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: First Vienna Awards

Joe:

A few reactions to your comments:

1.  I am aware how the CURRENT discussion began.  But in my recent
experience, it is only the latest verse of a song which I have been
hearing for some time.

2.  Since I hold the doctorate in psychology, I am  familiar with
confrontation as a "standard practice in psychotherapy."  But "to FORCE
them to confront past traumas" is a bit strong.  And certainly you are
not suggesting that the motivation for confrontation on the list is
psychotherapeutic?

3.  I agree that nations as well as individuals must confront their past,
but I also know that confrontation (particularly in the hands of those
who do not understand it) leads as frequently to frustration and aggression
as it does to "insight."

4.  I don't recall suggesting that dealing with the past be SUPPRESSED.
And I am well aware of the "official policy over the lasdt 40 years."
But there is a difference between not allowing people deal with past
traumas and suggesting that the ultimate aim of that resolution must be to
move beyond it to some form of both personal and national resolution.  And
then direct the same energies used for conflict resolution toward RESOLUTION
of the SERIOUS PROBLEMS THAT EXIST NOW AND THREATEN TO EXIST WELL INTO THE
FUTURE IF THEY ARE NOT RESOLVED.

5.  Your reference to psychotherapy makes me think of another comment I made.
I am not so much at a loss to understand what motivates these people as I
suggested.  Avoiding whatever deep psychological motivations which may exist,
I suspect that one word accounts for much of the problem:  POWER.

6.  I plead guilty to not mentioning Israel recently.

Incidentally, Joe, I did read your comments with much interest.  Perhaps
this dialogue can be at least as significant as the one which provoked it.


=======================================================================
DR.  GEORGE R. BAUER             | INTERESTS:
                                 | Computers in Business & Education.
Just returned from teaching      | Education:  Curriculum development.
Czech teachers of English        |    International Education, TEFL.
in Prague, Czechoslovakia.       | Central Europe:  Post revolution
Now looking for a job in Europe. |    economic, social, political
                                 |    changes and opportunities.
E-MAIL ADDRESS:  BAUER@RCKHRST1  | Free lance writing.
=======================================================================
From: Lubosh.Hanuska@anu.edu.au (Lubosh)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.slovak-l
Subject: Hungarian autonomy in Slovakia
Date: 19 Nov 92 22:17:07 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
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X-XXDate: Fri, 20 Nov 92 17:17:17 GMT

In article <9211121955.AA10986.10986@alfred.ccs.carleton.ca> George
Frajkor, gfrajkor@CCS.CARLETON.CA writes:
>> Autonomy within the Slovak state where Hungarians are in majority and
>> the Hungarian language also accepted as official language.
>
>      Am I wrong in thinking they already have this??  See the above
>comment on official languages.
The form of Local Government in Slovakia consists of the system of
National Councils (Na'rodne' vy'bory). Members of these councils are
elected for a 4 year period, and they carry on almost all executive power
in the local community. I am not an expert in it, but it seems that if
there is a majority of Hungarian population in a region, logically they
can reach an appropriate majority in the local councils, and thus enjoy
as much autonomy as they want. And I am sure it also happens, so
Hungarians are effectively in charge of their own matters in their
majority regions. But I am not there, so the oppressed Hungarians might
as well be frustrated by the unwillingness of the Slovak Government not
to approve of their decision to move their local region from Slovakia to
Hungary... Probably the autonomy is just NOT SUFFICIENT for them, and I
wonder if it ever will be.
Lubosh
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.slovak-l
Date:         Mon, 23 Nov 1992 00:57:04 -0500
Reply-To:     James Herchek <aj901@cleveland.Freenet.Edu>
From:         James Herchek <aj901@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>
Subject:      UNSUB

UNSUBSCRIBE James Herchek

--
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   If it weren't for the last minute   |          James Herchek
a lot of things would never get done.  |    aj901@cleveland.freenet.edu
 ************************************* |       Mayfield Heights, Ohio
From: KUBASKA@UAKOM.CS
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.slovak-l
Subject: Re: Hungarian signs irritants to Slovaks
Date: 23 Nov 92 07:13:27 GMT
Organization: UAKOM SAV Banska Bystrica, CSFR
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> From:          Joe Pannon <pannon@bcsfse.ca.boeing.com>
> Subject:       Hungarian signs irritants to Slovaks

> HUNGARY PROTESTS SLOVAK MOVE TO REMOVE HUNGARIAN SIGNS. State
> Secretary Geza Entz said on 13 November 1992 that new orders by
> Slovak Transportation Minister Roman Hofbauer to remove Hungarian
> language village and city signs in communities populated by the
> Hungarian minority are "harsh, provocative and injurious,"
> reported MTI.  Entz protested against the systematic removal and
> called for a halt to the campaign.  (Karoly Okolicsanyi, RFE/RL,
> Inc.)

 I still don't know what it has to do with Hungary. The next article
 appeared in PRAVDA some week ago. Stuff is shortened:

 The discussions about proper or unproper use of the hungarian signs
 (hs) are going on at south of Slovakia for 3 years. Citizens of
 hungarian nationality are claiming by the bill of basic human rights
 and freedoms, where the right for information is guaranteed. They are
 claiming that these signs are not meant for orientation purposes, but
 for information ones, so that no law has been violated by their
instalation, including so called language law.
-As Mr Zoltan Karasek, the head of the county office in Komarno said,
he had not got any any law instruction regarding hs from the office of
the goverment of SR in last days, so that no action was done.
-The county office in Nove Zamky has prepared the warning to the
mayors of local comunities, where they are asked for removal of hs.
The don't expect their warning will be fulfiled.
-Similar situation is also in other counties of SW Slovakia.
-Gejza Geczi the head of the city counsil in Kralovsky Chlmec said,
that hs are untouched and they have no offitial informations about
their removal.
-In the south part of Kosice-vidiek county the county council of
hiway systems removed hs. According to the director of CCHS  V. Kozak
this step was done  after the repeated warning that the villages
interfered illegaly into trafic signs and orientation system  of the
roads that is under the jurisdiction of CCHS,police and transportation
office only according to existing law. CCHS also had got the letter
from L.Pauliny the director of the department of land transportation
of the ministry of transportation,telecommunications and public works
of SR. They are asked to put the traffic signs in order with existing
law. Frantisek Petrik,the prosecutor of the county have protested
against the hs in Moldava nad Bodvou,lately. Now he has the protest of
the mayor of of MnB at his table.He will reply within one month.
-D.Vrabel, the emploee of the county work office in Lucenec said,
that they had not removed any hs.

Marian Kubaska
Banska Bystrica
Czech and Slovak Federal Republic
E-mail: KUBASKA@UAKOM.CS
From: Lubosh <Lubosh.Hanuska@anu.edu.au>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.slovak-l
Subject: Re: Roots of the Slovak-Hungarian Conflict
Date: 22 Nov 1992 01:07:05 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
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In article <9211201847.AA10117@atc.boeing.com> Joe Pannon,
pannon@BCSFSE.CA.BOEING.COM writes:
>If you insist on using New World analogy, a more proper comparison of
>Hungarians in Slovakia would be with the French speaking citizens of
>Canada.  They, too, have lived in that land for about as long as the
>English speaking Canadians, and they also rightly reject the notion of
>English speaking Canadians that sounds very similar to what you are
>saying about Hungarians in Slovakia.
>
Joe,
taking your word for it, you seem to say:
The Hungarians DO NOT NEED to learn SLovak, and if they have the attitude
to have everything in Hungarian, let them have it ! If you use the
example of your colleagues who have a non-English speaking background,
ask them - were you willing to learn English in order to work at Boeing ?
And do your Hungarian colleagues demand to have minutes of your meetings
printed Hungarian, or do they agree to use English as working language ?
Please, don't take it as a sarcasm, but the real problem is the
Hungarians in Slovakia DON'T WANT to accept that there are in a country
other than Hungary, and they DO NOT WANT to accept any other language
than Hungarian as a working language with others ! In many cases Slovaks
living in the areas with Hungarian minority have to learn Hungarian (I
don't say there's no benefit in it) not only in order to talk to their
fellow workers, but in order to keep their jobs if their boss is
Hungarian ! 
For various reasons your analogy to Canada is not quite right:
1. The Hungarians were not co-founders of Czecho-Slovakia as the French
were in Canada (the opposite - the Hungarians would probably favour to
keep their half of the Austro-Hungarian empire for good);
2. I don't see the Hungarians in Slovakia to have less rights than the
French speaking Canadians do have, but the French Canadians do not demand
to get under the French government, while many of Hungarian nationalists
demand an annexe to Hungary, not just an autonomy.
But I have never been to Quebec, so somebody might correct me if I'm
wrong.
Lubosh
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.slovak-l
Date:         Tue, 17 Nov 1992 07:48:34 -0800
From:         pariser@CATS.UCSC.EDU
Subject:      mapping

In response to retracing historical demographics, I thought it
might be interesting to compare the pre World War One map of
Central Europe with the (soon-to-be) "post-Gabcikovo" map of 1993.
One map, largely displayed at the Konopiste castle shows, in place
of an official SLOVAKIA, one Horne Uhry -- or Upper Hungary.  At
the time there were many Czechs living in a relatively harmonious
situation with Slovaks and Hungarians, and ethnic and racial
slurs were rather limited to hospoda and vinarna humor.
	The 1993 map shows enclaves of minority Hungarians,
living in paranoia in the same territory now known as SLOVAKIA.
Czechs and Moravians are few -- their numbers are getting
smaller -- and Nationalist movements within are causing these
minorities to fear for their welfare and safety.
	So what happened?  It seems like little more than a
Slovak compensation for missing the great mid-19th century
Nationalist movements.  The attitude among most Czechs and
Moravians at this time, sad to say, seems to be: "let the
Slovaks have their independent state, and let them be happy
and prosperous in so-doing.  But if their nationalism stands
in the way of economic development for the rest of the country --
and many people believe that this is the unfortunate truth --
then "at' jdou do haje."
	For me, a non-Czech and a non-Slovak -- a former
Czechoslovakofile -- the latest developments are extremely
frustrating.  Perhaps naively, I regard Mr. Meciar as the
post-Soviet pied piper.  He tempts the Slovaks with promises
to get rid of the rats, i.e., cehuni, but what happens when
Meciar demands his payments.  And we can only guess what
form these will take.
					Jon Pariser
					Russian Language Caucus
					University of California
					Santa Cruz, California
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Mailer: Elm [revision: 66.25]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.slovak-l
Date:         Mon, 23 Nov 1992 10:54:01 PST
From:         Joe Pannon <pannon@BCSFSE.CA.BOEING.COM>
Subject:      Re: Slovak-Hungarian Conflicts
              92 10:07 pm

Dear Lubosh:

> doesn't this show really the wish of a Great Hungary to come back ? Do
> you really want Hungary to come into the pre-WW I borders ? I'd like you
> to consider the borders of the Great Moravian Empire, or the borders of
> the Kingdom of Bohemia under Charles IV., and get some recognition for
> what did it mean for the Czechs and Slovaks to loose all that
> territory... What would happen if Great Britain would complain about
> losing its colonies after WW II ?!? Just have a look what happens due to
> the attempt to restore the Greater Serbia !!!

No, it DOES NOT show the wish of a Great Hungary to come back; it only
shows a sorrow over its loss.  No doubt, there are many who also wish
what you suggest, but we wish many things that could not happen.  For
instance, many people wish they were younger, but it won't happen.

I also think it's silly to compare the dismemberment of Hungary during
living memory of current generations with medieval empires of Moravians
and Czechs (who were not Slovaks!).  You also don't seem to know that
the Serbs aren't trying to recover something that was historically
theirs (Croatia wasn't).  But you REALLY are reaching by comparing
distant colonies of England with integral parts of historic Hungary!

Try harder next time!

Later,
Joe Pannon
From: pannon@BCSFSE.CA.BOEING.COM (Joe Pannon)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.slovak-l
Subject: Impressions
Date: 18 Nov 92 18:24:53 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Mailer: Elm [revision: 66.25]
              92 10:09 pm

Dear Lubosh:

Regarding the following exchange between you and Louise:

> >Both Tony and Joe no longer speak the language of their ancestors. But
> >Joe still has an interest in "sticking up for" his, while Tony knows

> Oh, Louise, just watch out for Joe, only after quite a while he revealed
> that he spent the first half (!) of his life in Hungary. So now we all
> know where the wind blows from... As I said I do not blame the Hungarians
> for sticking to their national traditions, but many times they forget to
> consider that their neighbours also try to stick to what belongs to them.

I didn't know that I had some kind of obligation to submit my Curriculum
Vitae here before getting into discussions.  Frankly, I haven't the
foggiest of most of your's background, except the Slovak ancestry.

Where do you get the idea that Hungarians only care about their own
national traditions?

> P.S.: And to Joe - he made an impression that he doesn't speak Hungarian
> from the beginning, but now I certainly doubt it. I haven't seen anyone
> who had Hungarian parents and wouldn't speak Hungarian, but as we see on
> Tony it is much different for Slovaks...

How did I make that impression?  Can you point out any message of mine
to support that?   I can understand the honest mistake of Louise, who
may have joined later and formed a mistaken impression, but you have
seen -- I belive -- all my posts during my short stay here, so you don't
have the same excuse.
After this, I wonder what sort of impressions you formed, for instance,
about George Antony's and Dr. Bauer's background.  Would you also
chastise them should you later discover that they, too, have Hungarian
backgrounds?

Now I wonder if most of your writings here are based on such ill-founded
impressions.  It would fit, you know.

Later,
Joe Pannon