From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.turkish,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.soviet,soc.rights.human,soc.culture.yugoslavia
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: Apparently we have another "revisionist" to expose: Schuerzinger.
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 92 18:26:09 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <1992Nov20.192825.7663@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> J.Theodore.Schuerzinger@dartmouth.edu (J. Theodore Schuerzinger) writes:

>> Oboy, oboy, oboy. Well, apparently we have another historical revisionist 
>> to contend with.

>Serdar-- 
>You still ignore this fact.  

A joke?

>As others have pointed out on the net,

Who, when, where, how? All your article reflects is your abundant 
ignorance. Ignorance is probably the main reason why you are in 
such a mess. Armenian government got away with the genocide of 2.5 
million Turkish men, women and children and is enjoying the fruits of 
that genocide. You, and those like you, will not get away with the 
genocide's cover-up.

>there is incontrovertible evidence that approximately one million
>Armenians were killed by the Ottoman Empire starting around 1917.  As

Is this "wieneramus" for real? It could be, perhaps, that your shoes
were too tight. For nearly one thousand years, the Turkish and Kurdish 
people lived on their homeland - the last one hundred under the oppressive 
Soviet and Armenian occupation. The persecutions culminated in 1914: The 
Armenian Government (Dashnaks and Hunchaks) planned and carried out a 
Genocide against its Muslim subjects. 2.5 million Turks and Kurds were 
murdered and the remainder driven out of their homeland. After one thousand 
years, Turkish and Kurdish lands were empty of Turks and Kurds. 

The survivors found a safe heaven in Turkiye.

Today, x-Soviet Armenian government rejects the right of Turks and 
Kurds to return to their Muslim lands occupied by x-Soviet Armenia.

Today, x-Soviet Armenia covers up the genocide perpetrated by its 
predecessors and is therefore an accessory to this crime against 
humanity.

x-Soviet Armenia must pay for its crime of genocide against the Muslims 
by admitting to the crime and making reparations to the Turks and Kurds.

Turks and Kurds demand the right to return to their lands,
to determine their own future as a nation in their own homeland.

1) Did Armenians slaughter 62% of Muslim population of Van?
2) Did Armenians slaughter 42% of Muslim population of Bitlis?
3) Did Armenians slaughter 31% of Muslim population of Erzurum?
4) Did Armenians slaughter 26% of Muslim population of Diyarbakir?
5) Did Armenians slaughter 16% of Muslim population of Mamuretulaziz?
6) Did Armenians slaughter 15% of Muslim population of Sivas?
7) Did Armenians slaughter the entire Muslim population of the Armenian
   Dictatorship?

There is only one answer to questions 1-7. And that is a resounding 
'yes.'[1,2,3] 

[1] J. McCarthy, "Armenian Terrorism: History as Poison and Antidote," 1984.
[2] K. Karpat, "Ottoman Population 1830-1914," The Univ. of Wisconsin Press,
    1985.
[3] R. Hovannisian, "Armenia On The Road To Independence," 1967, p. 37.

As for the numbers, I do have a copy of a demographic history on the 
question of the numbers which was published by a major American university 
press, that of New York University, copyright 1983. Its author, Prof. Justin 
McCarthy, is chairman of the history department at the University of 
Louisville in Kentucky, and a scholar whose expertise in this subject is 
so universally recognized by his peers that he was chosen to write the 
entry on 'demography' in the major reference work in the field of 
Middle Eastern studies, "The Encyclopedia of Islam." Nor has his 
expertise been ignored by the U.S. Government. Professor McCarthy holds 
perhaps the unique honor of having held a National Science Foundation 
'national needs post-doctoral fellowship in demography' and a National 
Endowment for the Humanities 'senior fellow' grant in history. 

Source #1: McCarthy, J., "Muslims and Minorities, The Population of Ottoman 
           Anatolia and the End of the Empire," New York University Press, 
           New York, 1983, pp. 133-144.

Source #2: Hovannisian, Richard G., "Armenia on the Road to Independence,
           1918. University of California Press (Berkeley and Los Angeles),
           1967, p. 13.

Now, let the Russians speak for themselves.

Source: Doc. Dr. Azmi Suslu, "Russian View on the Atrocities Committed
        by the Armenians Against the Turks," Ankara Universitesi, Ankara,
        1987, pp. 45-53.
        (Acting Commander of Erzurum and Deveboynu regions and Commander
        of the Second Erzurum Artillery Regiment Prisoner of War,
        Lieutenant Colonel Toverdodleyov)

"...We learnt the details this incident from the Commander-in-Chief,
 Odishelidge. they were as follows:

 The killings were organized by the doctors and the employers, and the
 act of killing was committed solely by the Armenian renegades...
 More than eight hundred unarmed and defenceless Turks have been
 killed in Erzincan. Large holes were dug and the defenceless 
 Turks were slaughtered like animals next to the holes. Later, the
 murdered Turks were thrown into the holes. The Armenian who stood 
 near the hole would say when the hole was filled with the corpses:
 'Seventy dead bodies, well, this hole can take ten more.' Thus ten
 more Turks would be cut into pieces, thrown into the hole, and when
 the hole was full it would be covered over with soil.

 The Armenians responsible for the act of murdering would frequently
 fill a house with eighty Turks, and cut their heads off one by one.
 Following the Erzincan massacre, the Armenians began to withdraw
 towards Erzurum... The Armenian renegades among those who withdrew
 to Erzurum from Erzincan raided the Moslem villages on the road, and
 destroyed the entire population, together with the villages.

 During the transportation of the cannons, ammunition and the carriages
 that were outside the war area, certain people were hired among the 
 Kurdish population to conduct the horse carriages. While the travellers
 were passing through Erzurum, the Armenians took advantage of the time
 when the Russian soldiers were in their dwellings and began to kill
 the Kurds they had hired. When the Russian soldiers heard the cries
 of the dying Kurds, they attempted to help them. However, the 
 Armenians threatened the Russian soldiers by vowing that they would
 have the same fate if they intervened, and thus prevented them from
 acting. All these terrifying acts of slaughter were committed with
 hatred and loathing.

 Lieutenant Medivani from the Russian Army described an incident that
 he witnessed in Erzurum as follows: An Armenian had shot a Kurd. The
 Kurd fell down but did not die. The Armenian attempted to force the
 stick in his hand into the mouth of the dying Kurd. However, since
 the Kurd had firmly closed his jaws in his agony, the Armenian failed
 in his attempt. Having seen this, the Armenian ripped open the abdomen
 of the Kurd, disembowelled him, and finally killed him by stamping
 him with the iron heel of his boot.

 Odishelidge himself told us that all the Turks who could not escape
 from the village of Ilica were killed. Their heads had been cut off
 by axes. He also told us that he had seen thousands of murdered
 children. Lieutenant Colonel Gryaznov, who passed through the village
 of Ilica, three weeks after the massacre told us the following:

 There were thousands of dead bodies hacked to pieces, on the roads.
 Every Armenian who happened to pass through these roads, cursed and
 spat on the corpses. In the courtyard of a mosque which was about
 25x30 meter square, dead bodies were piled to a height of 140 
 centimeters. Among these corpses were men and women of every age,
 children and old people. The women's bodies had obvious marks of
 rape. The genitals of many girls were filled with gun-powder..."

Source: Documents: Volume I (1919).
        "Document No: 76," Archive No: 1/2, Cabin No: 109, Drawer 
        No: 3, File No: 346, Section No: 427(1385), Contents No: 3, 52-53.
        (To Lt. Colonel Seyfi, General Headquarters, Second Section, 
        Istanbul - Dr. Stephan Eshnanie)

'Neues Wiener Tagblatt' - Vienna, 'Pester Lloyd' 'Local Anzliger' - Berlin,
'Algemeen Handelsblat' - Amsterdam, 'Vakit' - Istanbul.

"I have been closely following for two weeks the withdrawal of Russians and
 Armenians from Turkish territories through Armenia. Although two months
 have elapsed since the clearing of the territories of Armenian gangs, I
 have been observing the evidence of the cruelties of the Armenians at 
 almost every step. All the villages from Trabzon to Erzincan and from
 Erzincan to Erzurum are destroyed. Corpses of Turks brutally and cruelly
 slain are everywhere. According to accounts by those who were able to
 save their lives by escaping to mountains, the first horrible and fearful
 events begun when the Russian forces evacuated the places which were then
 taken over by Armenian gangs. The Russians usually treated the people 
 well, but the people feared the intervention of the Armenians. Once these
 places had been taken over by the Armenians, however, the massacres begun.
 They clearly announced their intention of clearing what they called the
 Armenian and Kurdish land from the Turks and thus, solve the nationality
 problem. Today I had the opportunity to meet Austrian and German soldiers
 who had escaped from Russian prison camps and come from Kars and
 Alexander Paul (Gumru-Leninakan)...

 They had told me how Armenian gangs murdered 360 Turkish prisoners of war
 in Kars and Alexanderpolis. Russian officers tried to save the Turks and
 there were clashes between Russian officers and Armenian gangs. I am now
 in Erzurum, and what I see is terrible. Almost the whole city is destroyed.
 The smell of the corpses still fills the air. Although there are speculations
 that Armenian gangs murdered Austrian and German prisoners as well, I
 could not get the supporting evidence in this regard, but there is proof
 of murdering of Turkish prisoners of war."

                                                     Dr. Stephan Eshnanie


Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)