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Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 13:27:54 EDT
From:         Leo W <Leo_W@QM.CIRCA.UFL.EDU>
Subject:      Re>Homosexuality
X-To:         Christia <christia@asuvm.inre.asu.edu>

Carl wrote: "homosexuality is when a male sexually lusts for another male and
  engages in sexual acts"

Homosexuality is more complicated than that, just as is heterosexuality.  The
popular press and politicians oversimplify homosexuality.  We cannot learn
anything from such (other than that we need to research further to find the
truth).  Too often Christian ministers and others (on all sides of the "issue")
accept these oversimplifications and perpetuate the misunderstandings and, in
effect, discourage Christians seeking an answer to their own or their
neighbor's homosexual orientation.

I apologize to all for perhaps continuing this thread beyond a reasonable
stopping point, but I have not seen enough Christian compassion towards, and
desire for understanding, homosexuals which we normally see in regards to, for
example, alcoholics.

I would urge all Christians possibly interested in the homosexual as a fellow
human being who needs our love and understanding to read Dr. Moberly's book,
"Homosexuality -- A New Christian Ethic."  This book is addressed to believers
and is written in non-technical language.  It is a call to reason and action in
the name of Christ Jesus.  Homosexuals have reasons for being homosexuals and
they have legitimate needs fueling their search for same-sex love.  Christians
must understand these deep psychological reasons and needs in order to minister
to homosexuals.

Dr. Moberly's book, "Psychogenesis," is a technical book dealing with the
psychology of homosexuality and presents her model of the psychodynamic
structure which has become the basis of modern, successful treatment for those
seeking such.  It is quite detailed and interesting reading for those who think
they know what "most psychologists" write about homosexuality.

Read the book.  Don't wait for the movie.

I also apologize to Carl for being too brief in my previous post.  And with
this post I end my participation in this thread.

Yours in Christ Jesus,
Leo
From: SHERRIWR@DUVM.BITNET (WALTER SHERRILL)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: when the world is new..
Date: 19 Aug 92 19:00:27 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
              19 Aug 1992 18:04:58 EST from <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>

Okay, but next time explain what the song really means, for there are
people (like me) who see the christian and secular musics combining to
form mixed messages.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1992 08:19:26 CDT
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Did JESUS respect beliefs?
              12 Aug 1992 17:50:02 PST from <FRANK@LAW.UCLA.EDU>

Dear unsigned author;

I would put your name, but it is excluded from your post.
Nevertheless, I wish to rebutt about the idea that Jesus spiritually battled
the devil, but not against a spiritual belief system.
The devil is called the "Father of Lies" by Christ and it is those lies which
even deludes the Father of them.
Every person has a belief system and it is those belief systems which tell a
lot about a person, for better or worse.
You cannot separate a person from their beliefs.  You have heard it said, "You
are what you eat."  However, what is more relevant is "You are what you
believe."





Jesse Carnes
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: pmoloney@maths.tcd.ie (Paul Moloney)
Subject: Re: Gay Characteristics
Organization: Somewhere in the Twentieth Century
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 08:52:02 GMT

MKLINE%VDH.BITNET@VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU writes:

>Subject: Gay Characteristics

[deleted]

Probably one of the most offensive articles I've ever seen on the Net;
Mr. Kline would do the Holocaust revisionist group proud; I suggest he
seek employment there.

Coming soon - "Black Characteristics", "Jewish Charactersitics"?

P.
-- 
moorcockheathersiainbankshamandcornpizzapjorourkebluesbrothersspikeleepratchett
clive P a u l  M o l o n e y "Lines of light ranged in the nonspace of the  rem
james Trinity College,Dublin PMOLONEY%MATHS.TCD.IE@PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU mind." vr
brownbladerunnerorsonscottcardprincewatchmenkatebushbatmanthekillingjoketolkien
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 11:51:34 EDT
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Something more on Revelation

On 08/18/92 at 13:38:22 j.b. cormier said:
>I just know it, Jason.

>Shalom,
>Memo.

>        This is the only answer that I have ever found to
>        be acceptable.  I, at this time, do not know it,
>        however.  I am trying.

>        Jason
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1992 12:05:22 EDT
From:         Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Homosexuality
              18 Aug 1992 11:18:00 EDT from <Richard.Campbell@MVS.UDEL.EDU>

Your quoting of Carl's posting reminded me of something I missed when
I originally read it.  St. Paul wrote that he was afflicted with a thorn
in the flesh, which many commentators believe to have been eye trouble,
and prayed to God to be freed from it.  He said that God did not remove
the "thorn" but said, "My strength is sufficient for thee."  I think
that principle could apply to someone afflicted with homosexuality, or
any predisposition to sin.  In some cases God will remove the problem.
In others God will not remove it but will give the individual the
strength to overcome it.

Marty Helgesen
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1992 11:02:07 CDT
From:         Chris Reed <CCCHRIS@MIZZOU1.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Trusting Scoutmasters

IMHO, the main difference I can see between pedophilia and incest is that
in the case of incest, the child has nowhere to turn for help.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 10:28:36 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Direct Revelation, passe?

Marty:

If you'd like to send this to me private, please do; I don't want to
start anything.  I'm just wondering what your personal interpretation
of the Medjugorje events is (are?), and, if you know, how the local
bishop (I think that's what you said) views them, if he doesn't
view them the way the followers do.  Thanks.

  Love INC,
           ---Kerry
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Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 21:58:23 -0500
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Subject:      Non-Delivery Report for <9208211413.AA04677@motgate.mot.com>
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU

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From: Richard.Campbell@MVS.UDEL.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Can Satan heal?
Date: 18 Aug 92 13:32:00 GMT
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X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU


   I agree with Ian.  Some illnesses in the gospels were caused by demons.
Satan could for his own purpose call one of them off.  Jesus on the other hand
was so completely ransacking the kingdom of darkness and standing for the
light that He could not possibly be working for Satan.  It would be like
someone nuking Washington, PHiladelphia and New York for America.   (IMO)
Rich C.
From: willm@igd.fhg.de (Matthias Will)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Raising a child for Christ
Date: 18 Aug 92 12:35:45 GMT
Organization: Zentrum fuer Graphische Datenverarbeitung, 6100 Darmstadt, Germany

Dear Claus,

I don't have any experience with raising kids, but my suggestion for you would
be not to force your daughter to do things she doesn't want, unless it is
harmful to her or others. In particular, I think she has to find out for herself
 what to think about christians, going to church etc., and I fear she might get 
a negative view of Christianity if she is forced to participate in Christian
activities. I think the best thing you can do is pray for her and hope (and 
believe) that God may change her heart. I wouldn't go to church if I didn't feel
a need to. OK, she's less than half my age, and I'm not an expert so in case
this sounds like nonsense, forget it...

Yours in Christ,
Matt Will

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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Sat, 22 Aug 1992 00:31:52 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Biblical meaning of church

Hi all:

(BTW, there are supposed to be quotation marks around the word "church"
in my subject line.  Apparently my editor doesn't recognize the
existence of quotation marks.  This is new to me.  Wonder what else
it might edit out if I tried to test it.)

Anyway.

I'm wondering about the Biblical meaning of "church."  According to
my concordance, the word is not even in the Old Testament, and it
only appears in the gospels on two occasions.  The first is Jesus'
prediction in Matthew that He will build His church, and I guess
wouldn't be much help for meaning.  The second is in the directions
Jesus gives concerning how to deal with a brother in error.  After
trying to talk to him privately, then with a few others, He says
to take him before the "church."  It seems to me that this, too,
is speaking of church as something yet to come.  The word does not
appear again until after Pentecost, after which it appears to
be everywhere.

It seems to me that the church began at Pentecost, and that Jesus
existed before that (even from the beginning of the beginning!)
So, to elevate the teachings of a church (*the* church or *any*
church) over the words and teachings of Christ would be a rather
dicey proposition, insofar as the only authority Christ Himself
grants to the church appears to be disciplinary (and, as I read
it, the discipline is for those who are in rebellion from *God*,
not from the church itself.)  Someone said that Christ required the
church to (correct me if I'm misinterpreting what was said)
enable Christ to forgive our sins.  I don't see how this can be
the case if Christ died before the church existed and if
the Plan was in effect even before that.

Christ's substitutionary atonement for our sins enabled believers
to gather in common cause as adopted sons of God Himself.  Christ
did not need the church; the church needed Christ.

BTW, I consider this a different thread than the "winning friends"
post, even though it came out of that discussion.  I think this is
a different, though related, issue.

Comments?

Love INC,
         ---Kerry
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 12 Aug 1992 09:23:54 CDT
From:         Carol Slingo <slingo@CASBAH.ACNS.NWU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Ian's first sermon
              Aug 12, 92 5:43 pm

Don't puke. It gets much easier the second time and the third and...

God be with you,

Carol Slingo
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1992 10:24:50 CDT
From:         Yvette Traylor <YST1@DCCCDBIT.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Beggars

> How about taking the beggars out for a meal?  Elaine/Buffalo.

And introducing them to someone who can give them living water
that they may never thirst...."but the water that I shall give him
shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life."
John 4:14b.



   Yvette Traylor     "We are His people and the sheep of his pasture."
   Dallas County Community College District             Psalm 100:3
   Computer Programmer/Analyst  in  Dallas - Texas
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 14:23:01 CDT
From:         Yvette Traylor <YST1@DCCCDBIT.BITNET>
Subject:      Questions for educators at home

> Dear listmembers that are involved in education at home (or interested in this
>
>
> I am attempting to compile some information regarding the practice of home
> schools (this is not official, nor to be used in any type of paper or
> publication, but simply for my information).  Since I have had very little
> luck finding persons involved in this in my area, I address my questions to
> the listmembers that are knowledgable of the subject.  For those who do not
> mind sharing their experiences, I am curious about the following:
>
> 1. What made you choose education at home over public or private education
> facilites?
>
> 2. Who is the primary instructor for your children?  What, if any, is their
> training?
>
> 3. Does the curriculum include most things that would be taught in an
> average public high school, or are their exclusions (ie., evolution, some
> books of literature, etc.)?
>
> 4. Does your child(ren) participate in extracurricular activities (music,
> sports, etc.)?
>
> Many thanks to those that respond.  In order not to fill disk space for all
> the listmembers, private e-mail is preferred.
>
> Grace and peace,
>
>                 Renee Autry (SRAutry@Samford)

   Yvette Traylor     "We are His people and the sheep of his pasture."
   Dallas County Community College District             Psalm 100:3
   Computer Programmer/Analyst  in  Dallas - Texas
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 22:43:56 EDT
Comments:     Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X
From:         David White <BSCURR01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject:      update

Bernice,

I have not lost a parent or had one in such a condition.  However, my
Grandma went through a period of time when she was completely bedfast.  It was
due to a number of strokes which she had over a period of 13 years.  During
her last year she had at least 12 known strokes.

These caused her much distress.  She often asked, before it got to where she
could not speak, why God did not take her home to heaven.  She was ready to
die.  However, He had a purpose for keeping her here.  It took me some time to
realize what one of the bright sides was to her continuing to live.  I realize
this is hindsight, but it does seem to follow Romans 8:28.  "All work together
for good to them that love the Lord, and who are called according to His
purpose."  Her having to spend so much time in the nursing home got me to be
more comfortable dealing with a nursing home environment.  Another thing it
allowed was that my Grandma and her mother-in-law, my Great Grandma, were able
to settle their differences before my Grandma died.

My Mom told me that she often prayed for God to take my Grandma so she would
not be in misery.  Do not misunderstand.  My Mom loved her mother very much.
She just could not bear to see her suffer.  Her prayer was that God's will be
done.  My Mom still misses my Grandma.

This can and is a hard time for you.  There is no doubt about that fact.  I
pray that God will lead and direct you and show you the silver lining amongst
the dark clouds.

                         Love in Christ,

                             David
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
Subject: Re:      Q: Origin of the term "mass".
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 20:22:17 GMT

In article <104C6891189F20A582@UPEI.CA> Lora Harris <LHARRIS@UPEI.CA> writes:
>Trivia question - where did the term "mass" for the service including
>communion/Lord's Supper/eucharist come from?  A friend was asking, and so far
>has had three people give her the same answer with the disclaimer that they
>weren't sure of it.

   It's actually a misnomer.  The Latin for "Mass" is "Missa."  It comes
from the words of the priest at the end of the Eucharist, "Missa est" ("it
is sent").  Today the American English text for this in the Latin Rite is
"the Mass is ended; go in peace to love and serve the Lord...".  In other
words, the word "Mass" comes from the ancient words that sent the faithful
forth to spread Christ to the world after celebrations of the Eucharist.

--Steve

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1992 08:05:00 -0400
From:         Lora Harris <LHARRIS@UPEI.CA>
Subject:      Re: Raising a child for Christ

Date: 18-AUG-1992 09:00:14

Claus,

>I think she is (still) a Christian. But for how long will she remain a
>Christian when she grows up, if she continues to avoid a Christian
>environment? How can we help her? We do require of her to go to church,
>but forcing her to do things cannot be healthy in the long run.
>
>Any advice would be appreciated.

        How do you deal with her and school?  Surely the same things come up,
that it is often boring, etc...  I know many parents who say they do not want
to force their child to come to church - however, they have no qualms about
forcing their child to attend school.  Surely you don't want the child to think
that you value her education in school more than her training in the church, to
know and love and worship Christ.

        DOes your church have active things for her to do?  It might be a good
idea to get involved yourself.  Certainly she must learn that worship is giving
yourself to GOd, not what you can get, but meanwhile the lesson might be
sweetened if it is made more interesting.

        (Gee it's easy to tell everyone how to be perfect parents, especially
when I don't have any of my own to make my own mistakes with!  :^)  Take my
advice for what it's worth, as I've never been a parent.)

Lora Harris, Virology Technician                        |
University of P.E.I, Atlantic Veterinary College      --+--
Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island, C1A 4P3            |
1-902-566-0845   LHARRIS@UPEI.CA                        |
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 12 Aug 1992 13:08:50 EDT
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Did JESUS respect beliefs?

Jesse,

I think Jesus said "foolish" test or something equivalent.
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Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 17:17:39 -0600
From:         Vernon Galloway <gallowav@CC.GETTYSBURG.EDU>
Subject:      Toleration of Immorality

Should Christians tolerate others,in their company, who openly sin?

1 Corinthians 5:1-2  It is actually reported that there is immorality among
you, and of a kind that is not even found among pagans; for a man is living
with his fathers wife.  And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn?
Let him who has done this be removed from among you.
THE LORD HAS SPOKEN!!

Revelation 2:20  But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman
Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and beguiling my
servants to practice immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols.
THE LORD HAS SPOKEN!!

Vernon


Vernon Galloway
Gettysburg College
MicroComputer Technician
gallowav@gettysburg.edu
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Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 10:06:00 EDT
From:         Richard.Campbell@MVS.UDEL.EDU
Subject:      Re: Re>Homosexuality
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU


  Carl,  The book Leo refers to is not a gay rights book.  It is a Christian
book by Dr. Elizabeth Moberly who has had extensive experience counseling *AND
HELPING TO CHANGE* homosexuals.  Her main thesis is that if a male's (or
female's) legitimate needs for same-sex love go unmet, and if there is what
she terms a "defensive detachment," these unmet needs can become eroticised at
puberty, thus creating homosexuality.  I think the point Leo was implying
(correct me if I'm worng ) was that his son's legitimate same-sex needs, if
unmet, could cause him to become "homosexual" in the erotic sense later.
 If you are really interested in understanding the homosexual condition and
how it is healed, Moberly's book "Homosexuality: A New Christian Ethic," is a
must.                                   Rich
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Date:         Sat, 22 Aug 1992 02:43:00 EST
From:         "David J. Moreau" <DMOREAU@DRUNIVAC.BITNET>
Subject:      Mary and playing with words

Discussions on the Bible often end up in a little game called Let's
See Who Has a Bigger Vocabulary.  Why must people manipulate words to
show that they don't 'worship' Mary, but they 'venororate' h?.  She is
not a 'mediator', but she is an 'intersessor'?  Why don't we consult
the Bible instead?  I'll be waiting on the scriptural proof.

David Moreau
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Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 11:19:49 -0500
From:         "j.b. cormier" <CORJB@RHODES.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Bible - Part 2

 But what good is an "inspired" Bible if it is not true in its
entirety? Or better yet, can there really be any inspiration without
truth? Certainly many "true" books have been authored by men that were
not "inspired," but the Bible claims (sorry, Darren; that is, those who
wrote it claim) to be written by men and authored by God.
   Simply put, there can be no inspiration without truth.

        Why?

        I assume that everyone on this list accepts that
        the Bible has much worth.

        That being the case, does it matter if Joe X
        doesn't believe every single statement in the
        Bible, while Joe Y does?  If each are living
        a Christian lifestyle(something which in the
        end can only be judged by the Judge), and both
        are getting beneficial wisdom and guidance
        from the Bible, does it really matter that
        Joe X interprets the Bible differently?

        Jason
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