From: isaac@etrog.se.citri.edu.au (Isaac Balbin)
Subject: Re: Conversion Question
Organization: Collaborative Information Technology Research Institute
Date: 17 Nov 92 21:35:45 GMT

stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:

>>It does, always has, and always will, and you acknowledge that yourself.
>			       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Huh?

Yes, you do, everytime you complain that Orthodox define the religion.

>Yes, there is a theological distinction; that's why there are O, C,
>and R.  The only problem is that O doesn't acknowledge the
>legitimacy of C and R, and to the extent that it tries to
>discredit C and R, which is what Tisha B'Av is probably all about.

Really? Tisha B'av is not about theological illegitimacy which is
exactly what Reform and Conservative are from the Orthodox standpoint.
You have no business complaining about someone's right to deligitimise
a manifestation of Judaism that they claim to be off-line. 

>In case you forgot, we are one people, and the infighting over
>whether the child of a woman converted by a Bet Din of Conservative
>Rabbis is Jewish is just as harmful to our people as are our
>real enemies.

Please. We are more than a people. We are also a religion and our religion
does not allow us to bow to manifestations of Judaism that our sages
tell us are wrong.

>>That Hitler defined who is a Jew? (your pointer to the Holocaust)
>>		I find that thought repulsive in the extreme

>Let's face it; people were murdered for being Jewish who you, in
>your infinite wisdom, would exclude from our community.  That's
>why I think is repulsive in the extreme.

Excuse me. I face it alright. I don't accept Hitler's definition.
Full stop. I do not see how his definition transcends Torah.
The thought is vomitous.
That people were deemed Jews and killed by a madman is unspeakable.
This has nought to do with proper theological delineation.


>Maintain your theological conviction all you want, but don't forget
>the REALITY that what you observe as Judaism is one of several
>LEGITIMATE interpretations of what God expects of US, the Jewish
>people.   

You are entitled to your view Stanley, but I maintain that yours
is a flawed view. The only reality I accept is the one called
Torah. From where I stand, according to our sages, the other
manifestations of Judaism are not valid.

>You seem to, very conveniently, forget that reality, and
>are willing to exclude 90% of your co-religionists from "your"
>religion.  Look it's OUR religion, and don't you for one second
>ever forget that we're in it together.

You know  very well that I cannot and do not want to  exclude someone
who is born Jewish. Each JEW is a holy individual.
My definition of JEW and yours are different.
Don't play silly little word games and say, `Oooo, Balbin excludes 90%
of those who have a connection with Jews.' Balbin doesn't EXCLUDE.
There are definitions and when someone is not included in a mandated
definition they can't be EXCLUDED---they were never considered PART!

Reality is something that hasn't hit YOU.
The Reality is that Orthodox Judaism will never accept new definitions
that are not halachikally mandated.
When that Reality hits you a few times you will cease wasting our time
by trying to convince us that we should accept every strain of 
Judaism invented since Kingdom come.


>The only nonsense is your head in the sand attitude.  It's time you
>recognize the real world.

My head is well out of the sand.
I live in the real world.

These cliches are SO tired and old and worn.

When you are Orthodox
	YOU CAN HAVE YOUR HEAD OUT OF THE SAND
When you are Orthodox
	YOU CAN BE ``MODERN'' 
When you are Orthodox
	YOU CAN MIX WITH AND BE FRIENDLY WITH REFORMERS, CONSERVATIVES etc

but
When you are Orthodox
	YOU WILL NOT ACCEPT DEFINITIONS OF JUDAISM WHICH RUN AGAINST THE 
	TRADITION. NEVER.
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