From: justin@hp750.ccs.uky.edu (Justin Sullivan)
Subject: Re: Christmas comes but once a year
    <1992Dec26.55805.22706@ms.uky.edu> <92361.082621U60703@uicvm.uic.edu> 
    <1992Dec26.214436.5778@panix.com>
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1992 04:16:32 GMT

First of all, I think I missed this article originally, so the quoting may
be a bit off..

rpowers@panix.com (Richard Powers) writes:

>I don't think many people here feel that suicide is such a hard thing
>to understand.

I take comfort (great comfort, in fact) in knowing that NOTHING is really
that hard to understand. The world may be a great big place, but it turns
on simple things. Society is too complicated for our own good (or at least,
that's the way it has become).

>>My older sister took her life last year, 2 days after
>>X-mas...(tomorrow)....  throughout the year or two preceding
>>this....she had brought it up occaision- ally....saying things
>>like...."well...when I'm gone it won't matter anyways"..
>>or..."shit...I'll just kill myself and be done with this shit"..... 

>>Your statements about...duh...why?....are somewhat accurate....looking
>>back now and remembering some of her statements I realize how we in
>>the family didn't really HEAR what she was saying....or we heard but
>>didn't really LISTEN....nobody wants to hear those kinds of
>>things....all of us just thought that she said them in times of
>>anger....that she'd never really do anything to harm herself.....it
>>was just her way of venting her frustrations... 

What a shame.. Well, you're lucky, in a way.. When I slashed my wrists,
everyone was talking about 'that stunt Justin pulled.' Then they almost
strangled me about the $50 insurance copayment for an emergency room
visit. In a case like that, no one should get offended if they tell me they
love me and I tell them to go stuff it..

Society does not teach us to tell how we really feel. Society also does 
not teach us how to think straight when someone we know tells us how they
feel. People are just stunned when you open your heart to them. They become
very uneasy and act like you're crazy..

>>Duh...why?....I guess those left behind always think/feel this way
>>because for some reason......for myself anyways....I wonder why
>>because I cannot comprehend the thought/feeling process she must have
>>went through...I cannot comprehend the depth of pain that she must
>>have felt leading up to this...I don't want to believe that someone
>>can have so much pain in their life...and not know where to turn for
>>help...or fight those who reach out...we talked a lot and were very
>>close....it wasn't enough.... 

I won't go to deep, but..
I'm sure you can comprehend it JUST FINE.. Everyone kills themselves for
different reasons, but the writing on the wall is basically the same.
Sometimes I have very detailed dreams about pain, sorrow and death..
It is not within my ability to strike anyone. Something about the REALITY
of it makes my stomach turn. It's hard to describe it, but it's true that
we don't want to BELIEVE the gravity of our feelings - pain especially.
Help? The need for help shows a weak mind to begin with.. No one needs
'help.' There is no band-aid for a life that doesn't see a need to go on
fighting.. What do you fight against? Too much. You can't win.. Even if you
fight as hard as you can, the war will go on, and everyone else has to fight
it too - right to the grave. 

Most people simply find that life in our modern world is not for them..
It does not make them happy. You can light someone's life, but only for
awhile.. Who says everyone kills themselves in a miserable state anyway?
When I slit my wrists, it was a beautiful spring day.. It made me very
happy.

>>Your duh,why? statement also angered me too though....it made me feel
>>like us survivors (which is what we are) just stand around perplexed
>>and in O cloud of stupidity....not true....we just don't UNDERSTAND
>>the act...we cannot relate....esp. with all of the help available
>>today....I read that 80% (I think it was 80%) of all suicide victims
>>don't go/refuse help, and that out of these 80%, apx. 2/3 could have
>>been prevented....some with therapy/anti-depressants or combo of
>>both....most don't go for help though because of the percieved stigma
>>attached to needing help...my sister thought she SHOULD handle
>>things....wouldn't go for help.... 

Those that walked out of Hiroshima alive are survivors. Cloud of 
stupidity? That sounds about right.. After all, we do bad things to
those we do not understand. 
I would rather have died than received the 'help' they want to give.
They don't understand, either. You read too much. Your sister was 
better off handling whatever it was that troubled her on her own.
Besides, my friend, anti-depressants don't alter reality for you.
The only 'preventable' suicides are those in the style of Romeo and Juliet.

>This blame-the-victim mentality may help "survivors" feel better, but
>it doesn't have a basis in reality, and is a big hindrance when
>suicidal people try to get help.  Speaking from experience, anyone who
>tries to get help for suicidal feelings is pretty damn likely to have
>their problems worsened by the experience.  From being treated as a
>criminal to any number of inappropriate responses.  (One I actually
>got from a friend was "take up jogging"!!!!)

Well, at least they don't to criminals like they're imbeciles..
'Take up jogging' isn't such a bad response.. Most runners do so because
it makes them feel free.. That's why I did it, anyway..

>I'm _not_ saying in any way that you were to blame.  But the response
>most of society has to anyone expressing suicidal thoughts is hardly
>helpful.  Did you know that a lot of counselors/agencies have a policy
>of 'no suicidals'?  Sad but true.  I have learned the hard way not to
>discuss my feelings with my 'friends'.  There is _noone_ I can talk to
>when I'm in an ash mood.  So here I am, on ash.

Well, you know what they say.. You have to be a friend to have one.

>All the help available today?  You really don't know what your talking
>about.  But don't feel bad, most people don't.

>Those of us who have gone through suicidal gestures/attempts before
>can become very cynical of how families/friends/whatever react to us.
>I for one have been just about ignored.  You don't know what its like
>to have your friends and family not mention a word to you about the
>scars on your wrist.  To have your friends disappear.  It feels like
>they don't give a shit whether you live or die.

>Try living with that.

I do..

>While I cannot speak for Justin, I hope you can see how someone can
>not care a whole hell of a lot about the 'severe pain/trauma a whole
>family would go through...'. 

Don't be bitter.. I was for a long time. Different strokes for different
folks. I'm going to make everyone happy if it kills me. :)

>>I think of my sister every day....  I miss her every day....  To me it
>>feels as though she was snatched away,and then reality/space/time just
>>filled the void where she often stood....  I hear her laughter, feel
>>her pain, and sometimes think I am beginning to understand now....now
>>when it's too late....  I wish I had her here to listen....REALLY
>>listen this time...wondering some- times if she'd still "do it".....
>>Sometimes the pain/guilt of the whole thing paralyzes me for
>>days....thinking I could have prevented it....when in reality I
>>couldn't.... 

Well, sorry.. You blew it. People always told me that if you mishandled
something, you'll lose it. You're right, though.. You couldn't have 
prevented it. I wouldn't have tried. It is not my place (or yours, to be
honest) to make such decisions for other people.

>>I could keep going on but won't....I guess I just want you out there
>>to realize that the survivors of a suicide are left with so much
>>pain/trauma/anger/confusion to deal with.....and It stays with us
>>always...it just lessons over time...but for me the unanswered
>>questions will always be there somewhere in the back of my
>to care nothing for the person who is contemplating suicide.  `Go get
>help because your family will hurt' Seems to be what you're saying.

And for those that survive a suicide attempt, there's a great deal more
pain/trauma/anger/confusion to deal with.. But there will be plenty of time
to deal with it behind bars..