From: kevin@taronga.taronga.com (Kevin Brown)
Subject: Judging God (was Re: Line and Verse PLEASE)
Reply-To: kevin@taronga.taronga.com (Kevin Brown)
Organization: Minimal.
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 21:16:38 GMT

In article <adams.703192541@spssig> adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes:
>kevin@taronga.taronga.com (Kevin Brown) writes:
>
>>In article <adams.702736628@spssig> adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes:
>>>As for the wisecrack, I'm not in a position to know the mind of God.  I
>>>won't try to sit in judgement of Him.
>
>>You do so whenever you claim your God to be "good" and "merciful".  The
>>only difference is in your verdict.
>
>>Those who claim not to judge their God are bullshitting, unless they
>>refrain from doing anything but describing their God's actions.
>
>I describe my God in those terms you use, but I disagree that this is
>"judging" God.  

Why is that?  Whenever we call anyone *else* "good" and "merciful", we
are making a statement of judgement about them, in *exactly* the same
way that we would be if we were to call them "evil" and "malicious".

But...if you are *not* judging God by calling him "good" and "merciful",
then I may just as legitimately claim that *I* am not judging God by
calling him "evil" and "malicious".

You can't have it one way in one case without having it the same way
in the other case, because the cases are equivalent.  The only difference
between them is what the verdict is.

>I do not propose to determine that any particular action of
>God is good or bad.  It just is.  

But that's judging the *action*, and it's not what I'm talking about, nor
is it what *you* were talking about.

We're talking about judging entities here, whether they be men or gods.

However, I should note that, unless we are mindreaders, we *cannot*
judge another *except* by their actions.  Thus, when I say that God
is "evil" or "malicious", that statement is based on what I, or others,
consider God's actions to be.  Similarly, when *you* say that God is
"good" or "merciul", it is similarly based on what you, or others,
consider God's actions to be.  That is, of course, unless you claim
to be able to read the mind of God (I make no such claim)...

>And it is His will.  Thus, whether or not
>I like it, it is good to Him.

Of course.  That's essentially by definition.  But it doesn't tell us
anything, so it's pretty useless to mention that.  Furthermore, the
same statement applies to "Satan" as well, does it not?  The actions
that "Satan" takes most certainly can be construed as being good for
"Satan", inasmuch as it is in the nature of "Satan" to take such
actions.

If, in claiming that your God is "good" and "merciful", you are not
making a statement about *God*, then just *what* are you talking *about*?

And if you *are* making a statement *about* God, then you are judging
him, just like I said, because the terms "good" and "merciful" are
value terms in *exactly* the same way that the terms "evil" and
"malicious" are.

Take your pick, but there is no third option.

>I'm not forcing you to believe...you have the free will to ignore the
>message if you wish.

Well, yeah.  But again, that's not what we're talking about.  We're not
talking about whether or not *I* believe *anything*.  We're talking about
whether or not *you* judge *your* God.  And my claim is that you *are*
doing so whenever you pronounce your God to be "good" and "merciful",
for to claim otherwise would rob the words "good" and "merciful" of their
meaning and make statements based on those words meaningless.  All of this
is *independent* of what *my* beliefs are, for even if I were a Christian
and *agreed* with you that God is "merciful" and "good", I would *still*
call it judging God when you, I, or anyone else made such statements.

> -Steve


		Kevin Brown (kevin@taronga.taronga.com)

Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc