HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: diarmuid@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Diarmuid Pigott)
Newsgroups: sci.classics,alt.mythology
Subject: Re: Robert Graves-- transcendent genius or raving loon?
Date: 10 Nov 1992 15:21:57 +0800
Organization: The University of Western Australia
NNTP-Posting-Host: uniwa.uwa.edu.au
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

sometimes a Wombat (lnh@soliton.physics.arizona.edu) wrote:
: erynn@stein.u.washington.edu writes:
: > I was told by a friend that the most understandable way to read TWG 
: > was chapter by chapter backwards.
: 
: That's not a bad idea, actually.  At least, you'll get to the admission
: that the whole thing is a poetic myth quickly.
: 
Funny, I just read the introduction. It's quite explicit there! Or
doesn't anyone else read them anymore?


Newsgroups: sci.classics
From: berck@cs.rulimburg.nl (Peter Berck)
Subject: quincunx, what does it mean
Organization: University of Limburg, Maastricht
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 10:12:01 GMT

This is probable not the right newsgroup (sorry) but what does
Quincunx mean (as in the book by C. Palliser). Etymology?

Thanx,

-Peter (Keeper of the Divina Commedia)

------------------------------------------------------------------
berck@cs.rulimburg.nl pberck@kub.nl
(format nil "~%~{~<~% ~1:; ~a~>~^,~}.~%"
        '(DoD#-337 cx-500 Sonic-Youth The-Icicle-Works Lush
          Dante-Alighieri))

Newsgroups: sci.classics
From: rickertj@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu (John Rickert)
Subject: Re: Powell on Greek Alphabet
Organization: Vanderbilt University Mathematics Department
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 14:35:12 GMT

In article <ada612.721380275@huxley> ada612@huxley.anu.edu.au (Avery D Andrews) writes:
>Does anyone have an informed option about B. Powell (1991),
>_Homer and the origin of the Greek alphabet_, CUP?  The thesis
>of the book is that the Greek alphabet was devised for the specific
>purpose of recording Homer.  The argument seems sensible on a first
>pass, tho I'm too ignorant of the relevant factual material to make
>a serious evaluation of it (& I'm struck by Powell's apparently
>automatic assumption that the adapter/scribe was male).
>
>Avery.Andrews@anu.edu.au
>

    Just curious, but what argument or arguments does Powell make
regarding digamma?  It's needed at some spots for scansion, and yet
it isn't written.


John Rickert					I swore off reality 
rickertj@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu		years ago, and I haven't
						touched it since.
From: allen-benjamin@yale.edu (Benjamin Allen)
Newsgroups: sci.classics
Subject: Sulla and Aristotle
Date: 5 Nov 1992 21:04:55 -0500
Organization: Yale University Science & Engineering UNIX(tm), New Haven, CT 06520-2158
NNTP-Posting-Host: minerva.cis.yale.edu


Isaac Asimov's Book of Facts reports that a large cache of previously lost
works of Aristotle was discovered by Sullan troops in 80 B.C.  Does anyone
know the source of this story, and if so, which works they were?

Ben Allen, Yale University
allen-benjamin@yale.edu
From: djh@siesoft.co.uk (Duncan Head)
Newsgroups: sci.classics
Subject: Re: help with latin phrase
Date: 10 Nov 92 19:24:52 GMT
Distribution: sci
Organization: Siemens Nixdorf Information Systems Ltd.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

david.meadows@canrem.com (david meadows) writes, in answer
to a query of mine:
: DH>  It's from Quintus Curtius Rufus, _History of Alexander_, 3.3.15;
:   >  and describes the "spear-bearer" guards infantry regiment of
:   >  Darius III, the last Persian king.  The text says:
: 
: DH>       "soliti vestem excipere regalem"
: 
: DH>  -  the subject being, I believe, the spear-bearers.
: 
: DH>  Now the Penguin translation renders this as "who usually looked
:   >  after the King's wardrobe".  But another book I read recently
:   >  quotes the phrase, and translates it as "who alone were allowed
:   >  to wear the royal dress".
: I would trust the Penguin translation ... Yardley definitely knows his
: stuff. Excipere is being used here in the sense `to take or draw out'; 
: that is, Darius had these spear-bearers who would set out his clothes 
: for him and in the context which Curtius is writing, it is just 
: another example of the Persian's warped priorities (in Greek eyes) that
: those who occupy the position of honor in his procession are little 
: more than armed butlers.
: 
:                David Meadows

Thanks, David; that's an interesting interpretation. I had been 
thinking of "looked after his wardrobe" in the sense of "escorted
the baggage-wagons containing the King's personal possessions", 
rather than "pressed the King's trousers and handed him his cravat".
The "spear-bearers" were one thousand strong; would Curtius (or his
source) go so far as to imply _that_ many valets? On the other hand,
I don't think Curtius actually _mentions_ their strength, so maybe
he _is_ just implying they're butlers.

Any more ideas?

Duncan Head
djh@siesoft.co.uk
Newsgroups: sci.classics
From: "david meadows" <david.meadows@canrem.com>
Subject: ad hominum
Reply-To: "david meadows" <david.meadows@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: sci
Date: 12 Nov 92 13:54:42 EST

Latinitas would prefer a subject of ad hominem ...

               David Meadows
---
  1st 1.00 #813  1st does more by 9:00am than other readers do all day
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
Newsgroups: sci.classics
From: kkr42091@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (QUEEN ZENOBIA!)
Subject: Old Nubian
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 03:13:10 GMT

Is Old Nubian considered a Classical Language? And does anyone on here, 
know at least bits and parts of it? 
I am studying it under Prof Browne here at UIUC, but I would like to get
outside opinions too.

Thanks
-Kimberli Roan
kkr42091@sumter.cso.uiuc.edu
kkr42091@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
From: israel@unixg.ubc.ca (Robert B. Israel)
Newsgroups: sci.classics
Subject: Re: quincunx, what does it mean
Date: 12 Nov 92 17:31:46 GMT
Organization: The University of British Columbia
NNTP-Posting-Host: unixg.ubc.ca

In <berck.721563121@cs.rulimburg.nl> berck@cs.rulimburg.nl (Peter Berck) writes:

>This is probable not the right newsgroup (sorry) but what does
>Quincunx mean (as in the book by C. Palliser). Etymology?

From my digital Webster:

quin-cunx  n
[L quincunc-, quincunx, lit., five twelfths, fr. quinque five + uncia twelfth part
 -- more at FIVE, OUNCE]
(1658)
:an arrangement of five things with one at each corner and one in the middle 
of a square or rectangle
-- quin-cun-cial or quin-cunx-ial adj 



-- 
Robert Israel                            israel@math.ubc.ca
Department of Mathematics             or israel@unixg.ubc.ca
University of British Columbia
Vancouver, BC, Canada V6T 1Y4
From: ada612@huxley.anu.edu.au (Avery D Andrews)
Newsgroups: sci.classics
Subject: Powell on Greek Alphabet (<< authoress of Odessey)
Date: 10 Nov 92 07:24:35 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.2.12

Does anyone have an informed option about B. Powell (1991),
_Homer and the origin of the Greek alphabet_, CUP?  The thesis
of the book is that the Greek alphabet was devised for the specific
purpose of recording Homer.  The argument seems sensible on a first
pass, tho I'm too ignorant of the relevant factual material to make
a serious evaluation of it (& I'm struck by Powell's apparently
automatic assumption that the adapter/scribe was male).

Avery.Andrews@anu.edu.au


Newsgroups: sci.classics
From: "david meadows" <david.meadows@canrem.com>
Subject: plato's views on women
Reply-To: "david meadows" <david.meadows@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: sci
Date: 10 Nov 92 18:54:00 EST

While I heartily agree that feminist approaches to history, like any 
`ist' approach suffers from its having a predigested theoretical base 
into which evidence is hammered until it conforms, there have been some
studies of Plato's views of women which might be useful:

M.L. Osborne, `Plato's Unchanging View of Women: A denial that Anatomy 
Spells Destiny' in Philosophical Forum 6 (1975), 447-452.

A.W. Saxonhouse, `The Philosopher and the Female in the Political 
Thought of Plato.' in Political Theory 4 (1976), 195-212

You would also do well to look at the `standard': Sarah Pomeroy's 
Goddesses, Whores, Wives, and Slaves.  Roger Just's recent Women in 
Athenian Law and Life also has a few pages devoted to Plato.  You 
might also want to take a look at W.K Lacey's The Family in Classical 
Greece (Chapter 8).  If you look at them all, you should get a good 
overview of Plato's views of women, both from a strictly feminist 
perspective and from a less radical one. Good luck.

David Meadows

               David Meadows
---
  1st 1.00 #813  1st does more by 9:00am than other readers do all day
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
Newsgroups: sci.classics
From: brekshyn@shearson.com (Bohdan Rekshynskyj)
Subject: Re: Help with Latin phrase
Reply-To: brekshyn@shearson.com
Organization: Lehman Brothers, Inc.
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 21:20:57 GMT

In article 25508@leland.Stanford.EDU, alderson@elaine46.Stanford.EDU (Rich Alderson) writes:
>In article <1992Nov10.205049.28205@shearson.com>, brekshyn@shearson (Bohdan Rekshynskyj) writes:
>>Salve,
>>
>>   This probably has no bearing in prose composition but the "ere" ending is
>>sometimes third person plural (I think) ending, mainly used in poetry.
>>So, excipere could be third person plural past tense (I don't have my
>>Latin grammar here - but isn't the 1st person past "excepi"?  If so,
>>this probably blows holes in my two cents worth, chuckle!)
>>
>>					Bohdan(vs)
>
>"excipere" is the infinitive, "excepere" (if it occurs) would be the alternate
>form of the 3rd pl. act. ind. pf.  "excepi" is indeed 1st sg. act. ind. pf.
>-- 
>Rich Alderson   'I wish life was not so short,' he thought.  'Languages take
>                such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about.'
>                                                        --J. R. R. Tolkien,
>alderson@leland.stanford.edu                              _The Lost Road_


Hi.  Thanks for the response but it didn't address the possibility of the
alternate ending for the third person usage to the original quotation!
Time for me to dig up 201 Latin verbs, chuckle!

					Bohdan(vs)
From: karl_best@novell.com (Karl Best)
Newsgroups: sci.classics
Subject: Re: Plato's Views on Women
Date: 9 Nov 92 14:52:47 GMT
Distribution: inet
Organization: Novell, Inc.

In article <ISBELL.92Nov9074042@panther.ai.mit.edu> isbell@ai.mit.edu (Charles  
L Isbell) writes:
> brian@quake.sylmar.ca.us (Brian K. Yoder) writes:
> |No.  I think that those who advocated such views were wrong.  Perhaps you 
> |would like to continue to apply that reasoning and advocate "slave  
philosophy"
> |and "serf philosophy".  What kinds of deep philosophical insights do you
> |think one acquires by being a woman, a slave, or a serf?  
> 
> A basic and personal understanding of what it means to be oppressed.
> I suspect that many of those who have been homeless, for example, have
> had their worldview shaped by such an experience.
> 
> And real, hands-on experience--as opposed to simple theoretical
> understanding--should not be underestimated.  I think being pulled
> over by a police officer and beaten near to death by a flashlight
> provides a "deep philosophical insight" as it were that might not be
> arrived at by other more cerebral means.

This sure sounds a lot like sci.classics to me. How 'bout the rest of you? 

Time for the kill file.

--
Karl Best                              Far away, across the field
Novell Tech Pubs           ...  __o    the tolling of the iron bell
Provo, Utah  801-429-3428 ..   -\<,    draws the faithful to their knees
kbest@doc.novell.com      ...(_)/(_).  to hear the softly spoken magic spell
karl_best@novell.com                      -Roger Waters, Pink Floyd
Newsgroups: sci.classics
From: "david meadows" <david.meadows@canrem.com>
Subject: help with latin phrase
Reply-To: "david meadows" <david.meadows@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: sci
Date: 7 Nov 92 12:38:42 EST

DH>  It's from Quintus Curtius Rufus, _History of Alexander_, 3.3.15;
  >  and describes the "spear-bearer" guards infantry regiment of
  >  Darius III, the last Persian king.  The text says:

DH>       "soliti vestem excipere regalem"

DH>  -  the subject being, I believe, the spear-bearers.

DH>  Now the Penguin translation renders this as "who usually looked
  >  after the King's wardrobe".  But another book I read recently
  >  quotes the phrase, and translates it as "who alone were allowed
  >  to wear the royal dress".  Unfortunately I don't have a text,
I would trust the Penguin translation ... Yardley definitely knows his
stuff. Excipere is being used here in the sense `to take or draw out'; 
that is, Darius had these spear-bearers who would set out his clothes 
for him and in the context which Curtius is writing, it is just 
another example of the Persian's warped priorities (in Greek eyes) that
those who occupy the position of honor in his procession are little 
more than armed butlers.

               David Meadows
---
  1st 1.00 #813  1st does more by 9:00am than other readers do all day
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
From: ingria@bbn.com (Bob Ingria)
Newsgroups: sci.classics
Subject: Re: authoress of Odyssey (<< Robert Graves)
Date: 10 Nov 1992 02:31:18 GMT
Reply-To: ingria@BBN.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: bbn.com
In-reply-to: ada612@huxley.anu.edu.au's message of 9 Nov 92 01:01:40 GMT

In article <ada612.721270900@huxley> ada612@huxley.anu.edu.au (Avery D Andrews) writes:
   In article <lfm47iINN67n@news.bbn.com>, ingria@BBN.COM (Bob Ingria) writes:
    >   But the way it *should* have happened is that Homer's daughter devises
    >   the alphabet to record dad's Big Poem, & then writes the Odyssey herself.
    >   
    > You mean Homer's daughter was Phoenician?

   Poor expression on my part.  Let's say `adapts the Phonecian alphabet to
   Greek' (which seem to me to be enough of a feat to be called `devising').

I was just having you on.  By the way, have you heard the story about
the Phoenician and the Greek talking?  The Phoenician informs the
Greek that he's devised this marvelous invention to record speech.  So
the Greek asks for some examples and says: ``Sea trade is very
important to Greece, so how would you write `ship', which is `naus' in
Greek?''  The Phoenician immediately writes down NS.

The Greek then says: ``Greeks are a very pious people, and often go to
the temple to pray and sacrifice, so how would you write `temple',
which is `naos' in Greek?'' The Phoenician immediately writes down NS.

The Greek then says: ``Greeks believe in the importance of the life of
the mind, so how would you write `mind', which is `nous' in Greek?''
The Phoenician immediately writes down NS.

The Greek looks at the three words and says: ``I think it needs work.
Talk to me again when you have the bugs worked out.''
--
-30-
Bob Ingria
Newsgroups: sci.classics
From: andrews@Csli.Stanford.EDU (Avery Andrews)
Subject: >>Powell on Greek Alphabet
Organization: Stanford University CSLI
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 03:37:35 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.143512.16452@news.vanderbilt.edu>,
  rickertj@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu (John Rickert) writes:
  
  >   Just curious, but what argument or arguments does Powell make   
  >regarding digamma?  It's needed at some spots for scansion, and yet
  >it isn't written.
 
Powell believes that at the time of transcription (in the 750-850
period, though I don't have the book here & am hopeless at remembering
dates) digamma was used by the aoidoi optionally, & written down by
the transcriber, using waw (but digamma had disappeared in ordinary 
speech).  The motive for thinking digamma was there is that the
transcriber invented upsilon for the u-vowel, which would not have been
necessary if waw wasn't being used for something else.  
 
Avery.Andrews@anu.edu.au 



Newsgroups: sci.classics
From: brekshyn@shearson.com (Bohdan Rekshynskyj)
Subject: Re: Help with Latin phrase
Reply-To: brekshyn@shearson.com
Organization: Ordinatio
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 20:50:49 GMT

Salve,

   This probably has no bearing in prose composition but the "ere" ending is
sometimes third person plural (I think) ending, mainly used in poetry.
So, excipere could be third person plural past tense (I don't have my
Latin grammar here - but isn't the 1st person past "excepi"?  If so,
this probably blows holes in my two cents worth, chuckle!)

					Bohdan(vs)



=====================================================================
 
Bohdan Peter Rekshynskyj
 
Consultant                     
 
Compuserve:  72576.1754@compuserve.com


                              
All promulgations are my own.  No corporate entity has authorization
to represent me.
 
Imprimatur.						Nihil obstat.
 
=====================================================================

In article 8911@siesoft.co.uk, djh@siesoft.co.uk (Duncan Head) writes:
>
>
>  I wonder if anyone reading this group can give me some 
>  ideas on the likely meaning of a brief Latin phrase?
>
>  It's from Quintus Curtius Rufus, _History of Alexander_, 3.3.15;
>  and describes the "spear-bearer" guards infantry regiment of
>  Darius III, the last Persian king.  The text says:
>
>       "soliti vestem excipere regalem"
>
>  -  the subject being, I believe, the spear-bearers.
>
>  Now the Penguin translation renders this as "who usually looked
>  after the King's wardrobe".  But another book I read recently
>  quotes the phrase, and translates it as "who alone were allowed
>  to wear the royal dress".  Unfortunately I don't have a text,
>  so I can't quote any more of the sentence - I hope it's not
>  relevant.
>
>  I assume "soliti" to be a participle from "soleo", to be accustomed;
>  but it looks as if my second translator is assuming it's something
>  to do with "solus", alone.  This point is minor; it's the verb that's
>  giving me trouble.
>
>  The lexicon I consulted gives several meanings for "excipio" - 
>  to take or draw out, hence to make an exception of or to state
>  expressly; to take to one's self, capture, take or receive; to
>  follow after, succeed.  But none of these look _particularly_
>  appropriate for _either_ of the translations I've quoted!
>
>  Can anyone, therefore, suggest which translation is preferrable -
>  or come up with another one?
>
>  Thanks,
>  
>  Duncan Head
>  djh@siesoft.co.uk
From: lizi@hermes.berkeley.edu (Cosma Shalizi)
Newsgroups: sci.classics
Subject: Re: authoress of Odyssey (<< Robert Graves)
Date: 9 Nov 1992 15:09:43 GMT
Organization: Campus Crusade for Cthulhu (Berkeley Tentacle)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hermes.berkeley.edu

In article <ada612.721270900@huxley> ada612@huxley.anu.edu.au (Avery D Andrews) writes:
>In article <lfm47iINN67n@news.bbn.com>, ingria@BBN.COM (Bob Ingria) writes:
> >   But the way it *should* have happened is that Homer's daughter devises
> >   the alphabet to record dad's Big Poem, & then writes the Odyssey herself.
> > You mean Homer's daughter was Phoenician?
>Poor expression on my part.  Let's say `adapts the Phonecian alphabet to
>Greek' (which seem to me to be enough of a feat to be called `devising').
   Actually, Lucian says someplace that Homer was a Hellenized oriental like
himself, though not, as I recall, Phoenician. And there would have been a
good reason for her to invent vowels: How else do you record the meter?
Feh. I like this story better than Graves' :).
	Cosma Rohilla Shalizi
	In Real Life: lizi@soda.berkeley.edu
	larval physicist
-- 
"What's the use of being an American citizen if I can't swear when I
damn well want to?" - My mother, while waiting in line in Heathrow
From: ada612@huxley.anu.edu.au (Avery D Andrews)
Newsgroups: sci.classics
Subject: authoress of Odyssey (<< Robert Graves)
Date: 9 Nov 92 01:01:40 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.2.12


In article <lfm47iINN67n@news.bbn.com>, ingria@BBN.COM (Bob Ingria) writes:
 >   But the way it *should* have happened is that Homer's daughter devises
 >   the alphabet to record dad's Big Poem, & then writes the Odyssey herself.
 >   
 > You mean Homer's daughter was Phoenician?
 
Poor expression on my part.  Let's say `adapts the Phonecian alphabet to
Greek' (which seem to me to be enough of a feat to be called `devising').
                 
 
Avery.Andrews@anu.edu.au
 
Newsgroups: sci.classics
From: rgep@emu.pmms.cam.ac.uk (Richard Pinch)
Subject: Re: quincunx, what does it mean
Organization: Department of Pure Mathematics, University of Cambridge
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 18:54:02 GMT

See Sir Thomas Browne's Garden of Cyrus.
From: cla02@seq1.keele.ac.uk (R. Wallace)
Newsgroups: sci.classics
Subject: Re: Sulla and Aristotle
Date: 6 Nov 92 16:37:42 GMT
Organization: Keele University, England

From article <1dcjs7INNltd@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU>, by allen-benjamin@yale.edu (Benjamin Allen):
> 
> Isaac Asimov's Book of Facts reports that a large cache of previously lost
> works of Aristotle was discovered by Sullan troops in 80 B.C.  Does anyone
> know the source of this story, and if so, which works they were?
> 
> Ben Allen, Yale University
> allen-benjamin@yale.edu

This romantic story is found in Strabo 13, 608, and Plutarch's Life of Sulla
26. Supposedly the cache was Aristotle's own library, hidden by his
heirs to prevent it being confiscated by the kings of Pergamum, and
containing virtually all of the works which now survive. For a
definitive working-over of this fable, see Hans Gottschalk's article
'Aristotelian Philosophy in the Roman World' in Aufstieg und Niedergang
der Romischen Welt II 36.2. pp. 1079-1174, and especially pp. 1083-1088.

Richard Wallace 
Newsgroups: sci.classics
From: chogan@jarthur.claremont.edu (Christopher M. Hogan)
Subject: Latin mneumonics
Organization: Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711
Distribution: all
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 06:42:17 GMT

I am looking for those silly mneumonics, or sayings that you learn in order
remember things about latin.

ex: for irregular imperatives:

DIC had a DUC with FUR on its back and that's a FAC

(i may have even misquoted this)

please email replies to me, I will collect, and repost them.

--christopher m. hogan                     (chogan@jarthur.claremont.edu)
Newsgroups: sci.classics
From: andrews@Csli.Stanford.EDU (Avery Andrews)
Subject: authoress of Odyssey (<< Robert Graves)
Organization: Stanford University CSLI
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 02:55:25 GMT


In article <leqtlmINNn3g@news.bbn.com>, ingria@bbn.com (Bob Ingria) writes:

  >   Oh -- and his endorsement of Samuel Butler's theory that Nausicaa wrote
  >   the Odyssey *is* woo-woo.
  >
  >I have to confess that, even thought I know Butler's book is off base,
  >I find it charming.  

But the way it *should* have happened is that Homer's daughter devises
the alphabet to record dad's Big Poem, & then writes the Odyssey herself.

Avery.Andrews@anu.edu.au