From: news@illusn.enet.dec.com (Mark Sornson)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: [This is what Corey says] This is what the Jehovah's Witnesses do.
Date: 22 Jul 92 18:53:52 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


In article <1992Jul22.001419.12399@sdf.lonestar.org>, corey@sdf.lonestar.org (Corey Carroll) writes...
>Well, I want to thank everyone for the references to the publishing
>house that has books on the JW's.  For now, here's something interesting
>to look at.
> 
>I don't care if this breaks all the rules of Internet etiquette.  This
>must be posted to show what the JW's do when they encounter arguments
>they cannot rebutt.  According to Andrea, I am an 'apostate', apparently
>because I had the "truth" and I rejected it.  

        You are right that what you've done breaks all the rules of net
    etiquette.  I suppose you feel that the ends justify the means, but
    posting private mail without permission is still a dishonorable
    activity, regardless of your reason.

        Additionally, I think that you've over-generalized "what the
    Jehovah's Witnesses do" on the basis of what Andreas wrote to you (and
    others).

        I understand why Andreas wrote what he did, and he's probably right
    that with your current attitude, many, if not all Witnesses on the net
    probably won't have much, if anything, to say to you; but you have to
    admit that up to this point there HAVE been at least a few Witnesses
    who've been willing to talk to you (in public and perhaps in private as
    well), perhaps because they felt that they might regain you back as a
    spiritual brother [since by your own admission, you haven't been
    'kicked out' yet, and you evidently haven't had the nerve to formally
    submit a written resignation of your own, which would save the elders
    in your congregation the anguish of having to disfellowship you,
    assuming, that is, that you really *want* to be disfellowshipped].

        I received Andreas' mail; but the truth is that he only can speak
    for himself as a matter of fact, and that he can only generalize on
    what other Witnesses may or may not do.  His word is not a command that
    everyone else stop talking to you -- especially at this point in time.

        The dictionary I have handy defines apostacy as:

                "renunciation of one's religion, principles,
                political party, etc."

    Regardless of the fact that Andreas as labelled you as an apostate, I'd
    say, after having read a few of your postings, that you've made it
    pretty clear that you've done precisely what an apostate does, namely
    you've renounced your religion, and have done so publicly, at least
    as far as the net is concerned.

        Whether you (or anyone else) is considered an apostate by us has
    nothing to do with whether we can or cannot rebutt your arguments; it
    has to do with your own attitude and publicly evident actions and
    words.  If you, by your own words, make it clear that you renounce and
    now decry the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses, you can hardly expect
    anyone who IS a Witness to want to hear what you have to say from now
    on, can you?  You may have been raised as a Witness, and thus feel that
    you have need to be free of the beliefs [and organizational structure]
    that are all you've known up to this point in your life (as though
    you've been greatly harmed by those beliefs); but don't forget that
    most Witnesses are people who have made the conscientious decision to
    join this religion as one-time outsiders -- and thus are glad to be
    Witnesses as a matter of choice (rather than upbringing).

> 
>-------------------------------[email begins here]--------------------------
> 
>Subject: Re: jw's and the 144000
>Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
>References: <1992Jul2.937.22513@dosgate> <+h-m7d.gordons@netcom.com> <ncgi5ik@fido.asd.sgi.com> <1992Jul18.223028.7541@sdf.lonestar.org>
>Status: RO
> 
>In talk.religion.misc you write:
>>Well, believe it or not, I'm a recent person who is freeing themself
>>from the Jehovah's Witnesses.  If you read alt.atheism, you know who
>>I am.  After reading talk.origins for a while, I discovered the
>>bad scholarship in their book _Life_.
>>is a demonic theory.  That's why I moved out of the house, and one reason
>>for leaving the JW religion.
> 
>	I got the impression that you are an apostate. You know, how we will
>	treat apostates, so it's needless for you to try to talk with us, 
>	everything you say will be ignored. I've told this to the other 
>	friends, too. 
> 
>				Andreas
> 
> 
>------------------------------[end e-mail]----------------------------------
> 
>Well, that just about sums up the Witnesses for you right there.  

        No, Corey ... that sums up Andreas alone; or perhaps only provides
    the basis which *you* consider valid for summing up all Witnesses.  
    Andreas is reminding you of a truth which you are already aware of,
    that we don't waste our time arguing with people who apostasize from
    our faith; but you clearly are ignoring (perhaps because it's
    convenient) the fact that we'd MUCH rather see you remain our spiritual
    brother, so that you live forever in God's 'new system' as a fellow
    servant of Jehovah.  We'd MUCH rather that you make yourself our
    spiritual friend, rather than declare yourself our spiritual enemy.

        Perhaps instead you should consider the evidence pertaining to
    yourself that YOU are providing Witnesses on the net and at your home
    for summing YOU up.

        You say that you've made your decision about Jehovah's Witnesses on
    the basis of what you've read in talk.origins, but tell me this: did
    you independently analyze the quotes and their context *ON YOUR OWN* to
    see if the critical analysis was *really* accurate; or did you just
    accept what the critics said because you have been looking for a reason
    to quit being a Witness anyway?  The reason I ask is that over the
    years I've researched on my own -- to the best of my ability -- 
    many claims of alleged falsification by the Watchtower Society, and
    every critical claim that I've been able to check out has proved false
    (in my estimation).  Can you honestly say that you've at least done the
    same thing, and given the faith you were raised in a fair defense, or
    are you content with a mere one-sided approach to the issues (because
    you are already predisposed to agree with the critical side)?

>                                                                  I find
>it interesting that they make such a big deal about being open-minded in
>the field service, (that is, the people they preach to must be open-minded).

        If you were truly so open-minded yourself, you'd have taken the
    time to investigate whether the critical arguments could be countered
    with reasonable and truthful explanations.  Have you done so, or do you
    believe, as apparently many others do, that accepting a one-sided
    critical case is the most open-minded way to judge Jehovah's Witnesses?
    Why are you so willing to believe that Jehovah's Witnesses are lying to
    you, but don't even entertain the thought that it *could* be the
    critics who are lying [or are at least misinformed or misguided]?

>However, they turn right around and censor all opposing viewpoints.  That's
>just real grand.  I guess I'll be in Andrea's kill file.  Haha.  Oh well.

        Neither Andreas nor anyone else is censoring you and your opposing
    views (or anyone else's opposing views, for that matter).  That you can
    freely post your views to your heart's content is proof of that. 
    Andreas has chosen to censor what he himself reads, and has (for better
    or for worse) chosen to tell you that he will be censoring your
    postings from his own 'in basket'.  But, again, he isn't censoring you,
    and neither is he censoring me.  If I, or any other Witness, choose to
    'kill' your postings as he does, that only affects what we as
    individuals choose to read -- and thus is self-censorship.  But you
    hardly come off the martyr for it.  Really, I wonder why this bothers
    you, for surely it's your intention to break free of Jehovah's
    Witnesses, right?  If we decide not to talk to you about our religion,
    doesn't that just keep us 'out of your hair,' and thus contribute to
    the freedom from our religion that you are seeking?

                                                                -mark.

> 
>-- 
>"All religions make me wanna throw up!"
>"All religions make me sick!" - Dead Kennedys, Religious Vomit
> 
>corey@sdf.lonestar.org                       ..!uunet!convex!egsner!sdf!corey
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