HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 13:43:13 EST
From: <MSH109@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Vamp, GURPS, etc.

>In article <92321.212850IK20001@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>, you say:
>>
>>Christine says:
>>
>>>I just have one more question before I shut up--is there anyone out there
>who
>>>still *likes* the Storyteller system or Vampire the Masquerade? I am
>>beginning
>>>to feel like it's the rec.arts.startrek.current syndrome--I hate it, but I
>>>stillplay it so I can bitch about it.
>>
>>I love it.  Really.  I think VtM is one of those games that redefined
>>the way we (at least *I*) look at role playing systems.  I play often,
>>I Storytell on a regular basis, and I really enjoy it.
>>
>>And, as a Storyteller junkie and a *long* time roleplayer, I am
>>very excited about the GURPS Vampire game.  I'll give my reasons why:
>
>  [Several excellent points deleted]
>>--
>
>>Eric Alfred Burns                        "Life is full of decisions
>>Solipsist at Large                        but you never get to make any."
>>"It's all in your mind"
>>IK20001@maine.maine.edu                           --Linus Van Pelt
>
>  I agree with Eric. I bought VtM and enjoyed the background immensely.
>However
> I did find problems with the rules orginization and general "vagueness."
>When my group played Ars Magica, also a Storyteller system, there did not seem
>to be as many problems...
> Today, I am primarily a GURPS player, and can't wait for the GURPS:Vampire
>book... My "rules" jones will be satisfied, and I'll get the same great vision
>as illustrated in VtM.
> A truism: No matter what background/world, game system, etc., a good GM will
> *MAKE* the game. I've played Basic D&D with a great GM and it was amazing;
>I've also played Vampire with a horrid GM and it was roll-playing, and not
>very
> good roll-playing at that.
>  Life (and gaming) is what u make it, folks.
>
>  My $.20 cents (I'm a big tipper),
>
>Rebis
From: mmadsen@bonnie.ics.uci.edu (Matt Madsen)
Subject: Re: Marketing of the Generic
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Reply-To: mmadsen@ics.uci.edu (Matt Madsen)
Organization: Univ. of Calif., Irvine, Info. & Computer Sci. Dept.
Date: 22 Nov 92 05:27:40 GMT

John H Kim writes:

>mmadsen@ics.uci.edu (Matt Madsen) writes:
>>I've noticed that one complaint against multi-genre systems (like GURPS) is
>>that things are...well, generic. What could GURPS, Hero, and others do to make
>>their products more palatable to people who really like the feel of a game
>>tailor-made for one genre.
>
>	Well, one thing is to concentrate more on sourcebooks with a
>specific world rather than whole genre sourcebooks - but I think those who
>like these 'universal' games want at least some of these sort of guideline,
>'make-your-own-world' sourcebooks.

I definitely agree very strongly here.  GURPS tends to give you some very
vague (interesting, but vague) general ideas and perhaps a few one-line
suggestions.

>	One approach which I particularly liked was the approach of
>GURPS Time Travel. It spent time explaining alot of the basics and options
>of time travel, but in campaigning, it covered a few fairly complete
>campaign set-ups rather than tossing off a bunch of one-line ideas as
>GURPS sourcebooks commonly do. Each of the campaign setups was about four
>or five pages, and described the beginning of a fairly real, non-'generic'
>campaign. 'Western Hero' did something similar in that it *detailed* the town
>of Tombstone during the period, providing a clear and concrete setting.
>
>	I think that the genre supplements would do well to show *by example*
>how to set up a good, in-genre campaign, rather than talking in the abstract
>about these things.

Yes, I think showing by example is _far_ more useful than offering
suggestions.  Usually I can say, "I like _that_, but _this_ has got to go!"
It's so much easier than starting from scratch.

>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>John Kim                    | "Nostalgia ain't what it used to be."
>jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu | "The future's not the same anymore."
>Columbia University         | "What the hell's wrong with my langauge."

Matt Madsen (again)
mmadsen@ics.uci.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
From: esper@cs35b.cs.umn.edu (Dave Sherohman)
Subject: Re: SR many magic questions (semi-long)
Organization: University of Minnesota
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 22:22:29 GMT

In article <168A81EB9.MHART00@RICEVM1.RICE.EDU> mason writes:
>>    -Can you ground a spell down a spirit/elemental if you are projecting
>>          and it is manifested?
> 
>A manifested spirit is present on both the astral and physical planes,
>so area-effect spells cast at the astral form may effect those around
>the spririt on the physical plane.  Tip for the shaman: summon a force
>one spirit, command it to manifest, then throw a manaball at it.  Yes,
>it's brutal, but it works.

I think I'd wait for the eggheads at MIT&M to tell us whether the spirit exists
before it's summoned or after it gets manaballed...  I don't think I'd like to
get a rep for abusing my spirits...  (And, as GM, I _would_ penalize a shaman
for treating spirits like that.  Especially if they're of types the shaman gets
a totem bonus for.)

esper@ima.umn.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
From: esper@cs35b.cs.umn.edu (Dave Sherohman)
Subject: SR:  Dodging bullets
Organization: University of Minnesota
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 22:52:06 GMT

I recall an article from a while back suggesting changing the target number for
dodgin bullets with Dodge Pool/defensive Combat Pool so they are based on the
class of weapon (hvy pistol, SMG, assault rifle, etc.) instead of the power
level of the attack on the rationale that even though it hits harder, a big,
slow-tracking assault cannon would be affected more by dodging than a small,
maneuverable weapon like an SMG - has anyone playtested anything like this?
I like the idea, but I'm not quite sure where to put the new target numbers...
If nobody has, I'll use my players as guinea pigs and let you know what I
eventually come up with...

Also, where are the SR archives?  (I know it's probably a FAQ...)

esper@ima.umn.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
From: moonman@camelot.bradley.edu (Craig Levin)
Subject: Re: Historical Camapigns, was Converting a book into a world
Organization: House of the Moss Rose
Date: 19 Nov 92 03:53:52 GMT

In <Bxxq57.G38@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> burdickd@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Dakin Burdick) writes:

>I'm not sure that the players are "cleverer" than people back in the
>olden days, but they certainly will have more resources (ie. magic).

	I'm not planning to include magic in the standard FRP method.
The setting, Portugal in the 1400's, does allow me to include
palmistry, tarot, alchemy, & astrology. I might also put in Prester
John and some of the creatures from Sir John Mandeville & Marco Polo's
traveler's tales.
 
>As a fellow student of history, I'd advise you to run the campaign
>as a "What If?" exercise.  Unless the players really change a
>historical event, have the historical timeline be relatively
>self-healing, if only to keep the amount of work you have to do
>(creating a whole new timeline) to a minimum.  I'm preparing a Cthulhu
>campaign starting in 1783 and going to the present, but I tend to
>use historical events as peripheral to the adventure.  The adventure
>itself should have been able to occur in history without changing
>(written) history, at least in a Cthulhu campaign where you are
>trying to make the characters paranoid.  I also tend to alter
>the flow of time (events occur a year or two later sometimes, like
>the Wall Street Crash; just to keep the players honest).  

	I more or less want them to be on Prince Henry's list of
reliable mariners and explorers. They'll change some of the history of
the Age of Discovery, but I think I can handle it without it creeping
into my senior paper :-)

>The advantage to historical roleplaying is that you can explain 
>afterwards that there really WAS a religious cult like that, and that
>a magician of that time was SAID to have those powers, so it COULD
>have happened that way, if we believed in all that stuff.  My 
>players have always appreciated the research, but remember, the play
>is the thing.  Don't sacrifice the game for reality's sake.

	Sounds like a good idea. 

--
.. the attempt to make them fool proof will fail, because fools are so 
ingenious. 
                                                        -Allyn O'Dubhda    
 
Craig Levin/Pedro de Alcazar, Illiton, MKdm moonman@camelot.bradley.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
From: dv52151@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (RedSwordTarga)
Subject: Re: Srun 2: Sequels?
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 04:21:42 GMT

phi@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Aeleck) writes:

>In article <168A415142.MHART00@RICEVM1.RICE.EDU> mason writes:
>>Does anyone know when (or even if) we can expect sequels to
>>Harlequin and/or the Universal Brotherhood?  I'm all for a
>>good dangling plot thread, but this is getting ridiculous.

>WHAT?  ARE YOU INSANE?????  Sequels to the two most killer modules FASA has 
>put out to date????  Why don't you ask for the sequel to Total Eclispe
>while you're at it and make it the top three!

*grin* Why not? After all, if you've cheated death twice, well, third time's
the charm.

>Point one:  After these modules your characters were meant to run for their 
>lives, IF they survived.  

What character ever does what he's supposed to? Make the Gm's life easy? 
Never.

>Point two:  (Universal Brotherhood)  Your chacters weren't meant to survive.
>This was supposed to be the 'no-win' run.

Oh, come now. With all that firepower? I'm sorry, but the bugs weren't that
tough. I suppose, however, that the GM's not really being a good tactician
and some of the players having been in the military may have affected the
outcome. ("Echelon left, Grenadier open up on those bugs..")

>Point three: (Harlequin) Your characters were supposed to be scared by the 
>power these two Entities were throwing around.

*giggle* It got so ridiculous we thought it was funny. I'd do it again
just so we could crack more jokes.

>Point four: (If you survived AND succeeded in UB, and Now have Harlequin
>and Ehron as common contacts, etc.) You are playing in a munchkin game,
>and your GM should run you against the world of Dungeon and Dragons,
>introduce Spelljammers as a way to explore outer space, and decide you
>need to fight a couple of gods, that he'll call astral contacts!

"Maybe you should try decaf." 
		-Cable

Axly


********************************************************************************
*   Axly      *  "Is Axly tough? Yes. Talented? Yes. Brave? Oh, certainly.     *
* Red Sword   *   He is also erratic, irresponsible, accident-prone, and a     *
*   Targa     *   constant threat to public safety. The trick is to keep him   *
*             *   pointed in the right direction. "                            *
*             *         -Niki                                                  *
********************************************************************************
From: at731@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Troy L. Nothnagel)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Srun 2: Vampires
Date: 19 Nov 1992 04:20:00 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: at731@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Troy L. Nothnagel)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, johnson1@cs.uwp.edu (Christina Johnson) says:

>I play in a campaign with a shape-shifter PC.  I realize it's not usual to
>have them as characters, but the gm likes big PC's so he can have big, bad
>villians.  It's actually pretty fun.  At any rate, what happens if this
>shape-shifter (she's an elven mage in human form and a tiger in shifted form)
>contracts the virus? 
>
>The reason i ask is because we DID encounter a vampire.  No one got
>"bitten", but the question was raised.  We didn't know if she would succumb
>to the elven nature (ie become a vampire) or if shapeshifters take on a
>different form (as orcs become wendigos).  Or if shapeshifters were immune.
>We had NO IDEA.  

In my campaign I've basically ruled that people aren't "immune" to it
(except perhaps dwarves and the like) but if they get drained to 0 they
DO contract the virus.  Unfortunately, they also die from it.  Horribly
and quite painfully.  Came up with this because I've got that a male elf
who is magically active will turn into a special kind of vampire that
instead of draining essense drains magical energy.  The unfortunate male
elf that also happens to be mundane dies.  (Not a pretty sight, mind
you.)


Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
From: bchapman@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA (Bruce Patrick Chapman)
Subject: Re: Srun 2: Vampires
Organization: Brock University, St. Catharines Ontario
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 20:00:04 GMT

In article <1992Nov18.185303.10561@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca> flindholm@mta.ca writes:
(quote that vampires only _think_ that they are alive deleted)
>    I think the second of your two ideas is the right one. Vampires are only
>formed after a vampire has killed a person by draining all of his essance.
>If you don't get drained all the way you don't become a vampire, you just
>have less essance.

	in that case, how would you explain the existance of LIVING 
	zero essence characters?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This is forwarded mail.  Please send all comments etc. to the following
		address: <9005904@mcmaster.bitnet>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: bradleah@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (II Andrew Bradley)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Srun 2: Vampires
Date: 17 Nov 1992 04:54:45 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Department at Rose-Hulman
Reply-To: bradleah@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (II Andrew Bradley)
NNTP-Posting-Host: o233-09.nextwork.rose-hulman.edu

In article <168A0F82C.MHART00@RICEVM1.RICE.EDU> mason writes:
> So question:  Can a vampire have children, and would those children
> be vampires?  (I have my own opinions, but am interested in those
> of the board).
>  
>  
> -- mason

	In my opinion the virus the affects the victims does not simply  
animate dead bodies but it turns a "normal" human (metahuman) into a  
"living, breathing, eating, drinking" vampire.  The virus will affect the  
person magically also so the possiblity of it animating a dead body would  
exist, but I don't think that that is a good possibility.  So since it  
affects living people, they can reproduce and the children will in my  
opinion be affected with the virus, because it is magical as well as a  
normal virus.


				All Comments Are Welcome,

					Andy Bradley

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
a.k.a. Major Drew Bradley of the Merc. Group The Black Hawks
e-mail at bradleah@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu
From: japhet@romulus.rutgers.edu (APJ)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Vampire and GURPS
Keywords: Vampire, GURPS, stereotypes
Date: 17 Nov 92 06:51:24 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

dv52151@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (RedSwordTarga) writes:


>thinks that V:TM is the greatest thing since sliced bread, has no faults,
>and that anyone who doesn't play it or like it is an immature, non-roleplaying
>anal-retentive type. This type of Vampire gamer seems to eventually break
>into a fit of name-calling and mud-slinging when their precious game 
>system gets insulted. Let's be real. Vampire, in terms of game mechanics,
>is ill-designed, with a disfunctional combat system, statistics that
>can only be adjusted in gross amounts, and a character generation sytem
>that enforces the game companie's view of vampire behavior with no
>allowance for individual vision, unless you totally redesign the 
>game using a system that works.  
   Maybe no one has a clue here. Hm?
   First off, I think you need to take some valium. It's a game. It's
supposed to bring enjoyment. RELAX.
  Second, in defence of Christine, who seems to know what she is talking
about, probably because she has played the game in some depth, I also fail
to see any validity in your reasoning about V:TM. I have been involved in
quite the successful campaign with no evidence of these stereotypes, nor
any of the short comings within the game mechanics nor character creation.
Vampire is simply a game that requires a vast imagination to bring it to 
life. The mechanics are left very vague for that reason. The game is
extemely flexible, and easily molded to any sort of campaign or what have
you. Their skill system is one of the best I have ever played. Simple,
fairly realistic, and modifiable to ANY situation, without any stress on
the part of the player, or the GM/Storyteller.
  It seems to me that you seem to be more the defensive type when it comes
to RP. Mind you, Christines "Until you've players Vampire: the Masquarade
you've only been rolling the dice" is (1) a personal opinion on her part,
(2) a .signature (jeez), and (3) mostly true. (And the dicless Vampire
works very well, I have played it...).
							Some people.
						            RJ
From:  (Spike)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: SJG Bankrupt? NOT!
Date: 17 Nov 92 16:50:36 GMT
Followup-To: rec.games.frp.misc
Organization: GE Power Generation

In article <Bxtorp.6x5@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>, durrant@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
(unknown) wrote:
[Among other things]
> 
> 	Secondly, if I remember correctly, and I asked at a gaming store 
> yesterday to confirm this, Steve Jackson Games almost went bankrupt last year.
> Their sales are way down, and I don't know if they would have the money or
> credit after their past problems to pull this off.
> 	Thirdly, having met Mark Rein-Hegan, Andrew Greenberg, and Tom Dowd
> (of Shadowrun fame, but he did have a significant role in designing the 
> Storyteller system and I'm sure he still owns a piece of it) I don't feel they
> would give their baby up.  If White Wolf would license to *anyone* it would
> be FASA--a company they are actually on good terms with.

The truth of the matter is this: in early 1990 (March, I think; I don't
have
the literature in front of me), SJ Games was raided by the Secret
Service because Loyd Blankenship, an employee there (as you well
know) had contact with conputer hackers in the course of writing GURPS
Cyberpunk. The SS (interesting abbrev.) ransacked the office, tore open
boxes in the warehouse, and, ultimately, walked off with a bunch of SJG
computer hardware (including, I'm told, a laser printer. Why? Dunno). 

Among the things they took were all working copies of the Cyberpunk 
manuscript. This in and of itself would not have been a crisis, but
SJG had been experiencing some cash flow problems, mostly due
to irresponsible behavior on the part of certain employees. SJG was 
hoping to use the Cyberpunk book (which all signs indicated would
be one of their best sellers ever) to generate some quick cash to get
themselves out of a rut.

The loss of the manuscript delayed the release of the book by a month.
This, combined with the other problems they were experiencing, was 
just about enough to kill the company. At the advice of their account-
ants, they laid off half their staff, and (just barely) managed to keep 
their head above water.

This was two years ago (not last year). They have been a long time
recovering from this, but, to the best of my knowledge, most of their
problems have been, if not overcome, abated. SJG has been on a
rigorous schedule for a game company of their size, releasing (until 
recently) 2-3 products a MONTH. They are supporting their two 
major systems (GURPS and Car Wars), while developing a new 
miniatures system (Hot Lead), cutting a deal with Kadokawa in
Japan to do the Japanese GURPS, licensing the Car Wars 
background to Tor books for a series of novels, and launching
an entirely new venture: Crafty Capers, a set of cross-stitch
patterns based on the artwork of Real Musgrave.

I don't know. To me, this just doesn't sound like a company in 
its death throes. I could be wrong.

Spike
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
From: ses52823@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Marius   )
Subject: Re: GURPS: PBEM: Bunnies & Burrows: Closed
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 05:51:42 GMT

I suppose this is as good as any a place to post this...

I would be really interested in participating (playerwise) in
a play-by-email campaign.

My credits (chalk about 5-9 yrs gaming to each of these)

Middle Earth Role Playing
Traveller
Star Frontiers (yuk)
AD&D, D&D, AD&D (2ed) (particularly interested in Dark Sun)
Star Wars (1ed)

Other miscellaneous (assorted yrs experience)

Palladium RPG (Fantasy & TMNT brands although pref. the former)
Robotech (all generations)
Cyberpunk (original and 2020)
Vampire:  The Masquerade (1ed, 2ed)
absolutely NO GURPS
Star Trek (FASA ed)
Dr Who (FASA ed)
Call of Cthulu

and, with a little acquaintance, others in the same vein would
come easily I'm sure...

Please let me know regarding any plans to the aforementioned
effect.  Let me guarantee you (I'm borrowing terminology from
.dnd here) that I am by no means a munchkin...

I realize the scarcity of pbem campaigns open on short notice
but I figured this was worth a try and I've noted that a couple
of people are showing interest in GMing such a crusade...

(Sorry if this is being posted to the wrong place -- as I stated
above, I couldn't think of one more appropriate.)

* * * * * * * * * *

Sven E. Skoog
(Marius)
ses52823@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
Chemical Engineering
University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign

* * * * * * * * * *
.

Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
From: mason
Subject: Srun 2: Questions
Organization: Rice University  
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 05:44:32 GMT

Some questions for the board:
 
1) Can a spell be grounded from the astral plane through a
     quickening?
2) Can quickenings be masked?
3) Can a physical spell be grounded through to the body of an
     astrally projecting mage (as opposed to a percieving one)?
4) Can foci be masked?
5) Can an active focus be carried physically through an astral
     ward?
6) What is the point of a "grade 0" initiate?
 
 
-- mason
From: gobeski8618@iscsvax.uni.edu (Steve 'Gobes' Gobeski)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Anarchists of the world, unite!
Date: 18 Nov 92 19:27:34 -0600
Followup-To: rec.games.frp.misc
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

In article <75170@hydra.gatech.EDU>, gt7803b@prism.gatech.EDU (Shrike) writes:
> It had to be said.
> -- 
> Life sux. You can't change that fact, so the next best thing is to figure out
> why exactly YOUR life sux. Once you've done that, it's all down-hill. Oh, well.

Cute.  You obviously have no clue what all different philosophies are included
under the general heading of "Anarchy", or you wouldn't see any contradiction
at all with Anarchists' uniting.

Of course, I'm still trying to figure out how this ended up on rec.games.frp...

Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
From: jasmine@sscux1.ssc.gov (Karissa Walden)
Subject: Re: Vampire and GURPS
Keywords: Vampire, GURPS, stereotypes
Organization: Superconducting Super Collider Laboratory
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 03:59:11 GMT

In article <BxtzFz.DCx@news.cso.uiuc.edu> dv52151@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (RedSwordTarga) writes:
>durrant@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (unknown) writes:
>system gets insulted. Let's be real. Vampire, in terms of game mechanics,
>is ill-designed, with a disfunctional combat system, statistics that
>can only be adjusted in gross amounts, and a character generation sytem
>that enforces the game companie's view of vampire behavior with no
>allowance for individual vision, unless you totally redesign the 
>game using a system that works.  
>
>Axly


I have been reading posts both for and against GURPS Vampire for a while now and
one thing that gets mentioned over and over is the bad game mechanics.  Yet,
I have never seen any examples.  Can someone please support this claim?  Nowm
I will admit I have never played GURPS but I have played Vampire and had no
problems with it.  So, what is this major error in game mechanics that I am
missing?

Karissa











Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc