From: rhayden@oracle.com (Ronald Hayden)
Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: Call/Fax/Write Fernandez
Date: 18 Dec 92 02:17:16 GMT
	<1gndb1INNshf@hp-col.col.hp.com>
Organization: Oracle Corporation, Belmont, Ca.
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In article <1gndb1INNshf@hp-col.col.hp.com> smithw@col.hp.com (Walter Smith) writes:

   rhayden@oracle.com (Ronald Hayden) writes:
   > So it's pretty frustrating that practically every conversation we get
   > into with a straight person (who doesn't have a lot of experience with
   > sexuality issues), we have to justify our existance again, and accept
   > being "tolerated", if we're lucky.  

   How do you mean "justify our existance"?  

By that, I mean the need to explain that we're normal people, we don't
molest children (any more than anyone else, anyway), we aren't asking
for "special rights", we don't want quotas, there's nothing
particularly strange about our relationships, we don't all wear
dresses/men's clothes (depending on the gender), and so forth.

   > To be told (as I was told by my
   > sister-in-law last week), "Oh, I treat my gay friends the same as
   > everyone else, even though I think what they're doing is wrong."

   Do you treat your fundie friends the same as everyone else,
   even though you think what they're doing is wrong?  Or do you 
   have any fundie friends? (no flame intended, just wanting you to
   look at it from the other side)  

I don't think I have "fundie friends", although some of my friends do
have religious beliefs I find pretty silly (like the new-age crystal
stuff).

What I'm really trying to get at about the "I treat people the same
even though I think they're wrong/unnormal/whatever" statement is that
it's a little like "separate but equal": I just have a hard time
buying it.  Separate is inherently unequal.  "I treat gays the same
EVEN THOUGH..." is an inherently suspicious and probably inaccurate
statement.  Your relationship with someone is going to be different if
you believe a basic, big part of their life is wrong or unnatural.
You are not going to have the same conversations with them (presuming
you are close) about their personal life.  (I certainly usually steer
clear of religious conversations with most people whom I find to be
"way out there" about religion...sort of like trying to talk sexuality
with Clayton...)  You are not going to treat their
boyfriend/girlfriend/spouse with the appropriate deference/respect you
might to a heterosexual spouse.  How can you if you believe that the
entire relationship is unnatural?

   > Really, it's nice that we're tolerated.  It's preferable to being
   > completely rejected.  Just don't expect us to invite you to our
   > housewarming.

   ...and if your sister-in-law invited you to hers? 

It would depend on if my spouse was welcome, and on if we would feel
that the atmosphere would be one that we would be comfortable in.

I should amplify this point with this fact: I actually *have* invited
my brother and sister-in-law to visit me, which they will do in a
couple of weeks.  So I'm not an absolutist about this (and they're
pretty religious, at that).  But for us to have a continuing
relationship, I will need to feel that they are striving to accept us
to the best of their abilities, and that it is possible for them to
improve/change.  If that is the case, then I'll consider it a success.

If they want the relationship to be based on "we just won't talk about
THOSE things", then it won't continue.  Fortunately, I feel optimistic
about this.
--

  - Ronald Hayden

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   | Documentation Manager, Oracle Toolkit Group                    |
   | Co-chair of Oracle Lambda, Oracle's Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual group |
   | Writer, magician, and various other things                     |
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