HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: eugene@amelia.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: [l/m 4/15/92] AMS			Distilled Wisdom (21/28) XYZ
Followup-To: poster
Organization: NAS Program, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 11:20:14 GMT
Reply-To: eugene@amelia.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)

UNDER CONSTRUCTION
A recurring topic of discussion is altitude sickness and treatment.
AMS (acute mountain sickness)
Time and a distinct lack of resources can quickly elevate the
dangers of a medical emergency.  High Altitude Pulmonary Edema (HAPE),
High Altitude Cerebral Edema (HACE), and retinal hemorrhaging
are all problems which can take place in some individuals as low
as 5-8,000 feet.  You can read references, but you have a responsibility
to be in reasonable physical shape, drinking plenty of fluids.
But the important thing to realize is that you have a MARGIN of
safety you are cutting into.
You should consult YOUR physician about YOUR special needs.
Diamox or Previtin should not be taken lightly.
Reactions to other drugs (even aspirin), allergries can differ at
higher elevations.  See a physician.
Another topic where urban thinking can harm you.
Drug treatment is not a substitute for descending.

Gamow bags have been discussed as an expensive measure (perhaps most
useful for high altitude expeditions).  Bottled LO2 is also a possibility.

1  Ferreira and Grundy, _Dexamethasone in the Treatment of Acute Mountain
   Sickness_, NEJM, VOl. 312, No 21, page 1390, 23 May 1985.
2  Oelz, Oswald, _A Case of High-Altitude Pulmonary Edema Treated with
   Nifedipine_, JAMA, Vol 257, No 6, page 780, 13 Feb 1987.

Bibliography:

"Medicine for Mountaineering: Third Edition" edited by James A. Wilkerson,
M.D., 1985, The Mountaineers, ISBN 0-89886-086-5.

"Medicine for the Outdoors" by Paul S. Auerbach, M.D., 1986, Little,
Brown and Company, ISBN 0-316-05928-5 (hc) 0-316-05929-3 (pbk).

"Wilderness Medicine" by William Forgey, M.D., 1987, ICS Books, Inc.,
ISBN 0-934802-37-8


TABLE OF CONTENTS of this chain:

21/ AMS						<* THIS PANEL *>
22/ Words from Foreman and Hayduke
23/ A bit of song (like camp songs)
24/ What is natural?
25/ A romantic notion of high-tech employment
26/ Other news groups of related interest, networking
27/ Films/cinema references
28/ References (written)
1/ DISCLAIMER
2/ Ethics
3/ Learning I
4/ learning II (lists, "Ten Essentials," Chouinard comments)
5/ Summary of past topics
6/ Non-wisdom: fire-arms topic circular discussion
7/ Learning (3)
8/ Fletcher's Law of Inverse Appreciation and advice
9/ Water Filter wisdom
10/ Words from Rachel Carson
11/ Snake bite
12/ Netiquette
13/ Questions on conditions and travel
14/ Dedication to Aldo Leopold
15/ Leopold's lot.
16/ Morbid backcountry
17/ Information about bears
18/ Poison ivy, frequently ask, under question
19/ Lyme disease, frequently ask, under question
20/ "Telling questions" backcountry Turing test (under construction)
From: johnf@Auspex.COM (John Fereira)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Mono Pass area backpacking - INFO WANTED
Date: 12 Aug 92 22:08:45 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Auspex Systems, Inc.

In article <l8ibhfINNq1n@news.bbn.com> ehudlick@BBN.COM (Eva Hudlicka) writes:
|
|
|hi,
|
|we're planning a short (4-5 days) backpacking trip to the Mono Pass 
|area in August - 
|
|i'd appreciate any info on the following:
|
|	Bears - i thought the north/east sierras didn't have much of 
|		a bear problem but a ranger informed me over the phone
|		that they have them even above the tree line - ???
|		so where do you "hang" your food? 
 
While they're not as common as in areas further south they are still 
around.  I have spent quite of bit of time on the June Lake Loop.  June
Lake Loop is just a bit east of Mono pass.  We were having dinner at
this restaurant that is along side the main loop road and the waiter there
told us that they had been having trouble with bears in the area.  A bear
had been in their dumpster a couple of times that week.  You might also
keep your eyes out for bighorn sheep.  I was in the area in August a couple
of years ago and the ranger at the eastern entrance station at Yosemite
asked me if I'd seen any when I told him where I'd been

|	getting there & back:
|
|		how long does it take to get to the trailhead from san
|		francisco? how bad is the traffic on sundays (we have
|		to catch a red-eye back to boston sunday night)
 
The traffic coming out of Yosemite can be pretty horendous.  Have you thought
about flying out of Reno instead.

-- 
+============================================================================++
| John Fereira            "Is that all you ever think about?"                |
| johnf@auspex.com                                                           |
+============================================================================++
From: gascan@dcst16.dc (Bill Gascoyne)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Bear Identification
Date: 17 Aug 92 22:39:29 GMT
Reply-To: gascan@dcst16.dc
Organization: LSI Logic Corporation

In article 8024@regina.cs.uregina.ca, craig@phenix.cc.uregina.ca (Craig Knelsen) writes:
>
>Secondly, does anyone know how "black" bears become cinammon-brown? Is it
>a gene mutation or is it a result of a grizzly mating with a black bear (is
>this possible)?
>-- 
>
>Craig Knelsen		craig@phenix.cc.uregina.ca
>			Craig_Knelsen@f20.n140.z1.fidonet.org

It is the term "black bear" that is confusing.  "Black bear" refers to a species, not
a color.  Many species (including man) have various colorations, but they're still
the same species.  As to a grizzly mating with a black, I would assume (if the griz
did not eat the black first :-) ) that any result would be sterile, like a mule.

---
1. Bill Gascoyne
From: lbach@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (Jim Loellbach)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Thermarest vs. Ridgerest or Ensolite?
Date: 21 Aug 92 13:53:43 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana


I'm trying to decide what kind of sleeping pad to buy.  Thermarests
seem popular, but they're expensive.  Ridgerests or ensolite pads
are much less expensive and lighter too.  Weight is not a primary
concern since we're not backpacking, but we might want to in the
future.  So what I'm asking is: do thermarests provide that much
more comfort over ridgerests or ensolite pads to be worth the
extra money (and weight if you're packing)?

My wife and I camp spring through fall, but not in very cold weather
so insulation is not critical.  We've used a double air-mattress,
which I find to be a real pain because when one person moves, it 
rocks the whole boat, so to speak.  I also tend to slide around on
it if the ground is not absolutely level.  Lately, if it's warm,
we've just slept on top of our bags without a pad and been much 
more comfortable than with the air-mattress.  What we'd like is
something firm and stable, and preferably joinable (or at least 
two pads that will stay put next to each other).

Also, is there an FAQ file for this group?  I've checked through
past postings and didn't see one.  Sorry if I missed it or if this
was recently covered.  Thanks for any info.

Jim Loellbach
fsbach@itchy.lerc.nasa.gov
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: gdblanke@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Greg D Blankenship)
Subject: Wind River Range, Wyoming---Info
Summary: Information on Cirque of the Towers
Organization: The Ohio State University
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 18:10:08 GMT


     I plan on hiking to the Cirque of the Towers from the Big Sandy
  entrance of the Wind River Range in Wyoming the week of Sept. 8th. 
  Any Information would be appreciated.
     email would be great.  gdblanke@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
          Thanks.
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: houle@nmt.edu (Paul Houle)
Subject: Re: GAZ stove and lantern
Organization: New Mexico Tech
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1992 23:27:28 GMT

In article <1992Aug11.191846.11171@mdd.comm.mot.com> rudoff@mdd.comm.mot.com (Doug Rudoff) writes:
>
>Anyone have any comments about the GAZ stoves and lanterns for
>backpacking use?

	Back home (in New Hampshire),  my dad owns a camping GAZ stove and
thinks it is really great.  His model has a pizeoelectric ignition,  so it
is about as convenient to use as a gas stove at home.  The only real problem
we had with it at the altitudes where we used it (< 5500 ft) is that one
can't change cylinders until the cylinder is entirely empty.  The cylinders
are fairly light,  and we would usually go through about one of them per
trip (so we'd have to carry two).

	I've been told that camping GAZ appliances function very poorly above
6000-7000 feet,  which is one of the reasons I just bought a whisperlight
myself since I'm interested in going places that high.  Also,  camping GAZ
isn't availible everywhere (I'd have to go to Albuquerque to get it),  while
white gas is...


--
From: jeanette@hpmcaa (Jeanette Skelton)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Going to Oregon
Date: 12 Aug 92 22:55:43 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: HP Cardiology Business Unit - McMinnville, OR
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

Tim Scharping (tim@ensoniq.com) wrote:
> 
> Due to circumstances beyond my control I find myself heading
> to Portland next week with absolutely nothing to do once I 
> arrive.  Since time is short, I am looking for some quick info
> on places to camp/hike within a reasonable ( ~2 hours) drive of
> the Portland airport.  I will be in the area for 5 days.  
> 
> 
There's lots of places within 2 hours of the airport:

The Columbia Gorge is just east of Portland. Drive on the old highway,
which has beautiful views of the gorge. You can stop at Multnomah
Falls, which is lovely but very crowded. I guess a good hike is
Eagle Creek, which passes several falls. It is also kind of heavily
used, but it's not quite as bad once you get away from the highway.
The gorge in general is beautiful and easy to get to, but that also
means a lot of people go there.

Mt. Hood is just south of the Gorge. There's lots of wonderful hikes
here. The Pacific Crest Trail goes through it, if you want a longer 
hike. You should be able to find less crowded places on the mountain.
Many of the hikes end in scenic overlooks of the mountain, where you
can see the extent of clearcutting.  

Mt St Helens is fairly close to Portland, but it may be a little bit
over two hours. You can climb it, but you have to go the morning of
the climb to try to get a permit. It's a good place to hike, though.

> PS: do I need to obtain a camping permit???
> -- 

You don't need a camping permit for Oregon. Some of the big campgrounds
take reservations. Campgrounds in the Gorge especially may be crowded.

Jeanette
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: sherod@news.Colorado.EDU (Scott Herod)
Subject: Re: Moose, Elk and other assorted beast.
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 22:16:55 GMT

|> Wapiti is the Native American name for the Pronghorn "Antelope",
|> a much smaller animal than Moose, American Elk, or European
|> Elk.   Wapiti have distinctive short vertical antlers with
|> sharp tips, and vivid rump patches.  American Elk have much
|> larger curved antlers, and the male has a heavy rough
|> shaggy coat about the neck and shoulders that bears no
|> resemblance to the sleek wapiti at any time of year.


And of course American "Antelope" aren't really antelope either.

Confused?

Scott
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry,tek.general
From: ptise01@convex.zdv.uni-tuebingen.de (M. Seeger)
Subject: Re: Insect repellent
Organization: Comp. Center (ZDV) U of Tuebingen, FRG
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 09:44:00 GMT

Does anybody knows if this woderfull stuff is also 
sold in Germany. 
And if so how is the the german product name ?


Thanks in advance


Michael Seeger
Institut fuer theorestische Physik
Uni Tuebingen

 
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: sgavian@amy4.stanford.edu (Sarah Gavian)
Subject: Re: MSR Stoves - Whisperlite Int'l. vs. X-GK II
Reply-To: sgavian@leland.stanford.edu (Sarah Gavian)
Organization: DSO, Stanford University
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 01:26:47 GMT

In article <MAHA.92Aug15204036@elaine15.Stanford.EDU>  
maha@elaine15.Stanford.EDU (lakshminarayanan mahadevan) writes:
> 
> Hi,
> 	I am trying to make up my mind about buying a good stove that can  
be
> used in Asia, Africa and S. America with a variety of fuels.

I've hiked with the international for five and a half month's while hiking  
the A.T. Once I used unleaded in the stove and it worked fine. The only  
warning is that it may clog up and get dirtier with continuous use of this  
dirtier fuel. I would recommend the whisperlite international because it  
is also easy to clean in the field and I find it very user friendly. The  
X-GKII also is an extreemly loud stove, not unlike a jet engine. It will  
scare away most any wildlife. Goodluck.

     ZEDBUD A.T. 91

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: dencisco@eos.arc.nasa.gov (David Paul Encisco)
Subject: Merrell balks, REI Refunds!
Organization: NASA Ames Research Center
Distribution: usa
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 21:24:17 GMT

I wore my Merrell Wildernesses to death in less than ten
months! My first recourse was to write Merrell explaining
that these were the best/worse ten month boots I've ever
owned. I'm still waiting for a written reply. Then I called them.
"Oh it sounds like they're just exhibiting normal wear for your
intensive style of hiking"...What! "I have tennis shoes which I
wear every day that have lasted longer than a year! Besides these
boots are advertised as "for the backcountry hardcore"". We made
little progress and the compare and contrast thing didn't work
either. Finally she told me to take them back to were I'd purchased
them, REI. Well REI also confirmed that the boots had definitely seen
their day and though the soles were separating (you could pull 
the sole a good two inches away from the boot), the uppers were splitting, 
and holes were worn into the internal lining, they said Merrell probably
won't take back these boots. This is when I slipped off one of my
12 year old Peter Limmer boots and we compared and contrasted. They
were blown away! Refunded in cash right then and there (I had the original
check to prove that I bought the boots there, but they never looked at
it). They also gave me one word(s) of advice: don't buy another pair,
please. This is what Vasque told me too a couple of years ago.

So back out in the boot market again; I should get my new custom
Limmers in any month now; I wonder if Raichle would refund my money
if their boots lasted me less than a year...hmm...

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: AS.MSW@forsythe.stanford.edu (Marc Whitney)
Subject: Re: Little Plastic Fasteners
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 23:23:30 GMT

In article <1992Aug17.191349.21927@midway.uchicago.edu>,
bjr@oddjob.uchicago.edu (Bernie Rauscher) writes:
>I recently acquired a new tent. It came with a little bag containing
>some lengths of chord, and for each length or chord, a little plastic
>fastener. The fasteners are about 1.25 inch long, 0.5 inch wide, and
>.125 inch thick. They have three evenly spaced holes that are big enough
>to accept either the chord or a metal stake.
>
>Does anybody know how these plastic gizmos are to be used?
>
>
They are supposed to extry guy lines in the event you encounter
serious storms.  Note the velcro strips -- they should be wrapped
around a tent pole so that the guy doesn't merely attach to the rain
fly.

Don't ask me if they work, I've never tried them.
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: dencisco@eos.arc.nasa.gov (David Paul Encisco)
Subject: Re: Oregon Wallowas...pack animals
Organization: NASA Ames Research Center
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 23:28:43 GMT

ddavidso@nyx.cs.du.edu (Durwood Davidson) writes:

>>That "access for the physically disabled" stuff is bogus.

>Now, due to her MS...I don't think her wanting to ride a horse 
>into the backcountry is bogus.
>   I can also send you a brochure on Wilderness On Wheels, a company
>here in Colorado that provides wilderness experiences for people in
>wheelchairs.  They've been around for 3 years now so someone must be
>using their services.
>   The next time you want to support your arguments, please don't dump
>on those less fortunate than you.  And have your facts straight too.

Yes it's true, many of us well bodied individuals take for granted
those less fortunate than ourselves. Forbid horses in the back
country and you keep a lot of disabled people from enjoying the
same feelings that you worship. No dogs in the National Parks; I'm
reminded of that astounding blind man and his seeing eye dog making
the entire Appalachian Trail trek. I must concur that if something
happened to my legs, eyes, or whatever, my love for the outdoors is
so intense that I'd get there with whatever means possible (except
motor vehicle). I'm sure most of us can sympathize with this lust.

Although I do have a problem with the overweight horse riding 
types (sorry, my problem, I know this is considered a disablity 
by many...but it's a syndrome where food is plentiful).

Dave

P.S. Durwood, I hope you and your wife will make it back to where it
is you like to go. Nothing is more important to one's well being than
being in a place where one wants to be. Good Luck!
From: randy@raven.alaska.edu (Randy Hayman)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Moose & Elk
Date: 18 Aug 92 14:59:22 GMT
Reply-To: randy@raven.alaska.edu (Randy Hayman)
Organization: U of AK - Fairbanks


 eman@niepce.foto.lpc.ethz.ch (Eric Maniloff x4440) writes:
|>
|>Big question here!  What is the difference between a moose & an elk?
|>
|>Is there a difference?  I thought that moose were expanded versions of elk,
|>
|>but someone found a dictionary saying moose:  common name for elk.
|>
|>What's the deal here?
|>
|>----------------------------------------------------------------------
|>----------
|>
|>Eric Maniloff						eman@ppc.lpc.ethz.ch
|>Physical Chemistry Laboratory				tel: 41 1 256 44 40
|>ETH-Zentrum, Zurich					fax: 41 1 252 34 02
|>
|>
|>


Common error based upon the latin name of each, Elk and Moose both have been 
named "Alces alces", and both are members of the deer family, but Moose
have also
been named "Alces americana"

Moose differ from elk in that the male moose has large flat antlers,
whereas elk have
large palmated antlers - neither flat nor webbed.  Other differences
abound, but this
is one striking difference. 

Randy
sxrmh1@orca.alaska.edu
From: johnf@Auspex.COM (John Fereira)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Backcountry Coffee:  Heresy!!!!!!
Date: 14 Aug 92 22:48:03 GMT
Organization: Auspex Systems, Inc.

In article <1992Aug14.132856.29496@ncar.ucar.edu> chris@chinook.atd.ucar.edu writes:
|JB <jbl@mesaadm.cre.nt.com> () writes:
|>Am I to infer from all the previous furor that I am the only trekker to
|>use (oh God, do I dare say the word.....shudder) INSTANT coffee?????
|
|ack pphhhppt!!  run away, run away!! ;~)
 
Took the words right out of mouth.

|Actually, who even needs coffee in the backcountry.  I'm so
|happy to be out of town and in the woods that I could just sh*t
|without it.
 
And the thread continues to drift....

On a recent fishing trip we were actually talking about how "regular"
one is when out in the backcountry.  It dont' think it has anything to 
do with instant vs. fresh brewed coffee.

-- 
+============================================================================++
| John Fereira            "Is that all you ever think about?"                |
| johnf@auspex.com                                                           |
+============================================================================++
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: AS.MSW@forsythe.stanford.edu (Marc Whitney)
Subject: Re: Alternatives to carrying a pack?
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 19:50:24 GMT

In article <1992Aug14.004854.16450@informix.com>,
proberts@informix.com (Paul Roberts) writes:
>>> In article <22666@hacgate.SCG.HAC.COM>, root@lyra.scg.hac.com (Dave Fisher)
>>> writes:
>>>
>>> > A good friend of mine is unable to carry a backpack, because of medical
>>> > considerations.  Hiking is no problem, however.  Does anyone know of
>>> > any alternatives (other than pack animals)?  For instance, does anyone
>>> > make a pack which can be pushed?
>
>I am toying with the idea of running a pack-trip operation in which
>we would use grad students as pack animals.
>
>Humans are much lighter on the trail than mules, student types would
>love to spend months in the wilderness at minimum wage, grad students
>would be accustomed to endless, humiliating labour.
>
>Yuppie backpackers would like the idea of helping out students as well
>as enjoying low-impact (and low-effort) wilderness wandering.
>
>I think this could be the backcountry fad of the next decade!
>
>Paul
>
>p.s. In case it is not obvious, I am not entirely serious here.
Hell, why not?  After a season give them a certificate as "horoary
Serpas".
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: geraghty@emba-news.uvm.edu.UUCP (Kevin M Geraghty)
Subject: Re: Moose & Elk
Originator: geraghty@griffin
Organization: University of Vermont -- Division of EMBA Computer Facility
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 14:17:47 GMT

From article <1992Aug18.090819.16139@bernina.ethz.ch>, by eman@niepce.foto.lpc.ethz.ch (Eric Maniloff x4440):
> Big question here!  What is the difference between a moose & an elk?
> 
> Is there a difference?  I thought that moose were expanded versions of elk,
> 
> but someone found a dictionary saying moose:  common name for elk.
> 
> What's the deal here?
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Eric Maniloff						eman@ppc.lpc.ethz.ch
> Physical Chemistry Laboratory				tel: 41 1 256 44 40
> ETH-Zentrum, Zurich					fax: 41 1 252 34 02
> 
> 

What europeans call "elk" is what North Americans call "moose": a
large ungainly northern animal with palmate antlers.  In north
American usage, "elk" refers to another large deer somewhat like 
a European red deer.  

Kevin Geraghty