HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dkeisen@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dave Eisen)
Subject: Re: Sierra with A's: 5 yrs/$30MM
Organization: Sequoia Peripherals, Inc.
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 93 17:07:00 GMT

In article <1993Jan4.011335.9615@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca> maynard@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Roger Maynard) writes:
>
>I don't think "pettiness and envy" describe the feelings of those
>who are being deprived of a shot at the WS because the big boys won't
>put out.  Do you honestly feel that being upset at a member of your
>team, because his lack of effort is costing you, is petty?

I guess you're right. I've been in situations where a talented
person was not "putting out", or at least did not appear to be
"putting out", and the other members of the team were annoyed. 
I've also been in situations where one person was more talented
than the others and that person was annoyed at the lack of 
performance of the others even though they all gave 110%.

Most people, you included (and I guess most athletes included
as well), would think being annoyed at someone for not putting
out is entirely reasonable while being annoyed at someone being
talentness is kind of unfair. I, however have never understood
this viewpoint and have always considered it a symptom of envy
of talented people. 

I'm more concerned with how much other members of my team contribute
to its success than I am with how much effort they seem to be
putting in. I don't much care how they manage to make this
contribution, whether it is something called "talent" or something
called "intensity" or something called "dedication". Besides, I
see the ability to give 110% to a cause as a very special talent
as well and decrying a player for not doing that seems about as
unfair as decrying one for not having quick enough wrists or for
not having a 95 m.p.h. fastball.

But I know I'm in the minority on this one. And maybe you are
all right. Maybe it is perfectly reasonable to be pissed at a
teammate for not seeming to work as hard as someone else does
whereas it is unreasonable to be pissed off because he can't
tell whether a pitched ball is in the strike zone or not. But
I just don't see why.

And as far as fans being angry at someone not giving his all
despite a huge salary, that is just totally insane. The team's
ownership is presumably paying the player based on expected
*performance*, not on physical tools. If a player is not fully
motivated to do his best, that should show up in his performance
and eventually his salary. If the team is paying him on some
other basis, I as a fan am not mad at the player, but at the
team's management for wasting their money on a player who will
not help them win.



-- 
Dave Eisen                               Sequoia Peripherals: (415) 967-5644
dkeisen@leland.Stanford.EDU              Home:                (415) 321-5154
       There's something in my library to offend everybody. 
          --- Washington Coalition Against Censorship
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent)
Subject: Re: Hall of Fame voting (read - Disgusted)
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 02:00:00 GMT

In article <C0Is3E.KAw@news.cso.uiuc.edu> lbarnes@alexia.lis.uiuc.edu (Laura L. Barnes) writes:

>I still can't believe Reggie Jackson made it and Phil Niekro AND Steve Garvey 
>(OK, he's marginal, but less so than Jackson IMHO) didn't.  I think that GArvey
>was better in all areas of the game including 'intangibles' than Jackson.  

How do you know he was better in intangibles?  Intangibles mean things
which can't be measured.  If you can't measure them, how can you decide
who is better?  This isn't a flame, this is a serious question.

If you belong to the Roger Maynard school, then these things can only be
measured by results.  Well, whose teams did better, Jackson or Garvey?

>Whsat did Reggie ever do well except mouth off to the press, appear in 1970's 
>and early 1980's TV shows, have a candy bar named after him, fight with Billy 
>MArtin, and hit home runs in the post-season?  (I'm not a big fan of 

Get on base, and hit for power.  All year long.  Yes, he had an amazing 
post-season series, but I could care less.  So did Rick Dempsey.  But it
isn't necessary to look at the post season to elect him to the HOF.

>Reggie's!)  Garvey, on the other hand, was a dangerous clutch hitter ALL 
>SEASON and reasonably good first baseman.  I plead ignorance on Reggie's 
>fielding abilities because I'm a Cub fan, and only tend to watch National 
>League games (NO DH!!)  

What did Garvey do, besides imitate Carney Lansford at first base and 
father a lot of kids?

>Anyway, I think Niekro deserved to be elected because he won 318 games AND 
>could throw a knuckleball accurately, which is impressive in and of itself!

>Feel free to flame away, if there are indeed any Reggie fans in the universe. 
>BTW, I don't particularly care for Garvey either, but he was a better player 
>than Jackson.  Post-season heroics have never particularly impressed me.

Okay, time for some stats.

	Gm   AB   R    H    2B  3B HR  RBI  BB   K    SB   BA/OBP/SLG
Reggie: 2820 9864 1551 2584 463 49 563 1702 1375 2597 228  262/352/490
Garvey: 2232 8835 1143 2599 440 43 272 1308 479  1003 83   294/330/446

So, Garvey got on base less and hit for less power, as well as having
less speed.  He also had a shorter career.  He has less plate discipline
than Andre Dawson.  He played an easier defensive position, and didn't
play it all that well.

As for clutch "ability," I don't have situational stats available, but
I'll note that Reggie both drove in and scored more runs per AB than 
Garvey.

Other than public relations, what did Garvey do better than Reggie?
-- 
David M. Nieporent   | Is it too early to start making predictions for 1993?
niepornt@phoenix.    | Probably, but that never stopped me before.
   princeton.edu     | ALE: Baltimore ALW: Chicago NLE: Montreal NLW: Atlanta
Baltimore Orioles 93 | AL MVP: Cal Ripken  AL Cy Young: Mike Mussina
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: drw3l@delmarva.evsc.Virginia.EDU (David Robert Walker)
Subject: DA on Turf
Organization: University of Virginia
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 20:58:12 GMT

Sometime last week, there was a rolling post on Defensive average,
Robbie Alomar, and the effects of artificial turf.

The only breakdown I could find for DA was home/away, for NL
shortstops of 1988, in the 1990 Baseball Sabermetric (a publication
which uses essentially the same format as the Abstracts, with James'
formulas, but no James.) On this admittedly small sample, it would
appear that most shortstops are favored in DA on turf, not harmed.

Turfophiles:
Home field turf, better DA at home: Smith, Larkin, Belliard, Jeltz
HOme field grass, better DA on road: Templeton, Uribe, Anderson, Thon,
Dunston, Thomas

Herbophiles:
Home field turf, better on road: Ramirez, Rivera
Home field grass, better at home: Elster, Griffin

Some of these were with huge splits (like Elster, .711 home, .604
road).

So that is a 10-4 split in favor of games predominately on turf.

Lest I forgot, the article was written by Pete DeCoursey.

Clay D.

Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: Jerald.Thomas@launchpad.unc.edu (Jerald Thomas)
Subject: Re: Cal Abrams afloat
Organization: University of North Carolina Extended Bulletin Board Service
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 20:55:48 GMT



nissim@mary.fordham.edu (Leonard J. Nissim) writes:

>I was polite enough not to ask about that 154th game of 1950; when someone
> else
>asked, he just shrugged and remembered that the third base coach who sent him
>home was fired.  (He didn't name him, but I seem to recall it was Clyde
>Sukeford (sp?).

Close: Clyde Sukeforth
--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: marwood@csri.toronto.edu (Simon J. Marwood)
Subject: Re: Stop the Keystone Cops! (was - Ted's Simmon's latest acquisition)
Organization: CSRI, University of Toronto
Date: 5 Jan 93 18:22:13 GMT

In article <1399@blue.cis.pitt.edu> genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave) dreams:
>Thus spake psg+@pitt.edu (Paul S Galvanek):
>
>>Lonnie Smith - *wimper*
>>
>
>Frankly, the signing that terrifies me is Tom Foley.  I mean, the only reason
>to sign a player is if you can foresee circumstances in which you might
>actually *choose* to have this player on the field "for" your team, right?
>Any team that *wants* Tom Foley on their side is dangerously misguided.
>
>Maybe we could trade Foley, Candelaria, and Lonnie to the Expos for Matt
>Stairs.  I mean, *they* aren't using him...

Sorry Dave...  unless Dal Maxvill has taken over in the Montreal front
office without my knowledge, I don't think ya got much chance of that...
of course, if it was Lou Gorman...

And the 'spos may well end up using Stairs at third, we'll have to see...
he's been tearing up Winter ball (again), and the last edition of McWeekly
had his OBP at something like .507 !!

Simon
 

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Simon Marwood		 | Do you have a list of ASIA tour dates? Please email
marwood@csri.toronto.edu | it to me!!!		-- Expos, 1993 --
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: BALTZCA%DFYC@pcmail.usafa.af.mil (Craig A. Baltz)
Subject: Re: Get a life baseball fans... Try ping-pong!
Organization: United States Air Force Academy
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 14:36:54 GMT

In article <9301082157.AA27017@pserv.CFSMO.Honeywell.COM> Khanh Nguyen <khanh@cfsmo.honeywell.com> writes:


>I finally stooped so low as to watch a baseball game the other day.  It was
>a tape of the "World" Series!  What a joke!  I can't believe you people.  I
>have seen some half-assed sports in my day, but baseball has got to take
>the cake.  I mean, really, a bunch of fat, old men running around in kid's
>outfits, scratching themselves, and spitting on national television.  

>Oh, and God forbid they should have to run across the field and damn near
>have a heartattack.  Please!

>And what do these slobs get paid?  $50,000,000 per second!  For what?

>Have you seen a modern table tennis tourney lately?  Real action!  Mano a
>mano battle for supremacy on the board.  Each one grabbing his paddle
>instead of his crotch.

>Pardon my saying so, but the only thing lamer than baseball is what you
>call "football."

>No flames necessary-- although I'm not sure you knobheads could scrape up
>enough intelligence between you to come up with a good one.  Anyway, I'm
>sure you're all REALLY offended.  Offended-- that's a big person word for
>when you don't like something that someone said.  

>So, don't bother.

>Khanh



This has got to be a joke.  No one can be stupid enough to voice his opinion
in this manner and think any self-respecting baseball fan gives a hoot. I 
like ping-pong and I even respect the athleticism of the players ( I 
doubt this guy is any good ), but if I didn't I wouldn't go to a ping-pong 
match screaming the praises of baseball.

Craig.
From: dtokarew@tokafew.Doc.Provo.Novell.COM (Deb Tokarewich)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: looking for a 1993 Cubs schedule
Date: 6 Jan 93 21:31:00 GMT
Organization: Novell, Inc.

In article <1993Jan6.085652.9954@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com> dougb@comm.mot.com  
(Doug Bank) writes:
> Does anyone have a 1993 Cubs schedule on line (even a preliminary
> schedule will do) ?
> 
> While I'm at it, is there a mailing list for Cub fans?

I don't have it online. But the current issue of Vine Line has their  
schedule, and the current issue of Baseball Weekly has every team's  
schedule.

In the past, I've also gotten a Cubs schedule (the folded, pocket kind) at  
their gift shops (there's one at Woodfield Mall). Don't know if they still  
carry them.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball,soc.women,soc.men
From: kettler@pierre.mit.edu (KETTLER, THOMAS R.)
Subject: Re: Women Sports Reporters
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  
Organization: MIT Lab for Nuclear Science
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 00:22:00 GMT

In article <1993Jan8.170351.19614@adobe.com>, snichols@adobe.com 
(Sherri Nichols)         writes...
>In article <1993Jan5.125130.24556@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com> 
bhv@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris) writes:
>>aaron:
>>)>Wyche did not try to unilaterally ban women reporters from the locker
>>)>room, but attempted to secure the privacy of his players while they
>>)>were bathing and void of clothing.
>>
>>That looks pretty clear to me.  I can't prove that aaron is *right*, but that
>>was also my impression of the state of affairs.
> 
>Pretty clear about what?  This statement doesn't address the issue: did
>Wyche treat women reporters differently than men reporters?  The statement
>by Aaron that was included in my post indicated that he did.  *That's* what
>got Wyche in hot water.
> 
Being a Bengal fan as well as a Expo fan, I remember what occured very well and 
the statement that he treated the one woman reporter (Denise Tom of USA Today) 
on that Monday night game at Seattle differently from the men depends on your 
point of view. He wouldn't allow her in the locker room so in that sense, she 
was treated differently, but instead had her ask for any player she wanted to 
talk to after the game. Every person that she wanted to talk with was required 
to talk with her after the player was dressed so she had just as much free 
reign to talk with players as any male reporter so in this sense, she wasn't 
treated differently. The unfortunate result of this was that Wyche was fined 
more heavily than any of the Patriot players who sexually harassed Lisa Olsen 
just the week before this happened.

					Sincerely yours,

					Thomas R. Kettler "Expos Fanatic"
From: jlevy@hamp.hampshire.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Mark grace Follies was Re: The Best First-base Player in !993
Date: 11 Jan 93 19:29:28 EDT
Organization: Hampshire College
NNTP-Posting-Host: hamp.hampshire.edu

In article <C0pqIw.B2s@Novell.COM>, dtokarew@tokafew.Doc.Provo.Novell.COM (Deb Tokarewich) writes:
>> In article <C0M6pC.IIp@news.iastate.edu> vbdiep@iastate.edu (Vinh Diep)  
> writes:
>>
>> While many of you are arguing about Will Clark and Frank Thomas, and 
>> one is better than the other, one player that some of you seem to ignore 
>> will surprise baseball fans in 1993. That All-Star first-baseman is DON
>> MATTINGLY.
> 
>> Any questions?
> 


mark Grace? you got to be kidding me.
> Just one: Ever hear of Mark Grace?


even Mattingly's beter than Mark Grace.
that's an even bigger joke than white boy donny.

jon Levy
hampshire College
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: First Game Memories (Was: Re: Hey Giants fans!)
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 18:45:13 GMT

In article <9JAN199313144386@pierre.mit.edu> kettler@pierre.mit.edu (KETTLER, THOMAS R.) writes:
>In article <mzya3rs@Unify.Com>, .Unify.Com.wm@unify.uucp 
>(William Morehouse writes...

>>The first baseball game I ever saw was in 1976 I believe,
>>Giants against the Pirates in Candlestick when the 'Stick
>>was still artificial turf.  Clark hit a game tying home run
>>in the 10th.  He became an instant hero to this 9-year old.
>>The game ended in the 12th with Gary Thommason (anybody
>>remember him?) hitting a home run.  

>>With my first baseball game being so exciting, I was hooked for
>>life.  Anybody else have a good story about their first ballgame?

>My first ballgame story is almost as good. It occured when my parents took me 
>to a doubleheader at Crosley Field in 1968 when I was just a baby. They say the 
>games were exciting but I was so overwhelmed by everything that I just did a 
>"Hanoi Jane" Fonda. d::-)

What?  You married Ted Turner?  Did the Chop?  Posed with an anti-aircraft
gun?  Ran for city council in Santa Barbara?  Made a video?  I don't 
understand.  Just what did you do?

My first game was a 1965 Red Sox-Senators game.  That's right, Yaz, Frank
Howard, and not much else.  But it turned into a 5-4 extra-inning  corker.

Roger

Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: dfl@math.wayne.edu (David Frohardt-Lane)
Subject: Cecil signs :-( :-( :-(
Organization: Wayne State University Math Department, Detroit
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 22:11:31 GMT

"..news that Tiger fans have been *waiting* to hear".  Yeah right.  
Five years, thirty-six million.  My god, he's barely above average
*right now*, can you imagine what he'll be like five years from now?
And after getting my hopes so high with the Abott rumors.  

It really didn't help to have Ilitch announce last summer that one of
his top priorities was to re-sign Fielder, and that he would do that at
any cost.  And then when local sportswriters and "experts" starting
saying stuff like "If Bonds is worth seven million, can you imagine what
Cecil Fielder is worth?", the fans started getting mad about it, so I
guess the Tigers felt they had to sign him.

--
David Frohardt-Lane   dfl@math.wayne.edu 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Go Tigers, Lions, Pistons, Red Wings and Wolverines !!!!!!!!!!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent)
Subject: Re: Sierra with A's: 5 yrs/$30MM
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 08:46:39 GMT

In article <1993Jan5.145506.23276@kadsma.kodak.com> pajerek@telstar.kodak.com (Don Pajerek) writes:
>In article <1993Jan3.091608.3538@Princeton.EDU> niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent) writes:

>>Obviously, Canseco isn't Ruth or Mantle, but the point still stands.
>>Who cares what percent he's giving?  What matters is what he's giving.

>'Who cares' are the other players on the team. A player who radiates the
>sense that he is coasting, especially a high-dollar player, can quickly
>poison the morale of the entire team.

>I am *not* saying necessarily that Canseco is this type of player (although
>others have). All I am doing is answering your question in a general sense.

But what I'm trying to say is that whether the player *produces* should
be the primary concern, not whether he coasts.  If he can coast AND
produce, that's fine.  (Like Canseco or Rickey Henderson, say, who are
both accused of coasting, but still produce massively.)

If others have a problem with that, get rid of *them.*  If they are more
worried about what other people are doing than what they're doing, who
needs them?

-- 
David M. Nieporent   | Is it too early to start making predictions for 1993?
niepornt@phoenix.    | Probably, but that never stopped me before.
   princeton.edu     | ALE: Baltimore ALW: Chicago NLE: Montreal NLW: Atlanta
Baltimore Orioles 93 | AL MVP: Cal Ripken  AL Cy Young: Mike Mussina
From: fls@econ.duke.edu (Forrest Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Pecota
Date: 7 Jan 93 15:18:23 GMT
Followup-To: Pecota
Organization: Duke University; Durham, N.C.


	Chipper Jones is not ready to be the Braves starter at shortstop.
He needs to play, however.  Sitting him on the bench in Atlanta would not do
the Braves nor Jones any good.
	I think the Braves' long-term problem in the infield will be at
third.  I suspect that's why they protected Blauser.  Once Pendleton's knees
give out, Blauser's back at third, Jones at short.

fls@keynes.econ.duke.edu
From: watnik@wald.ucdavis.edu (Mitchell Watnik)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: range factor question
Keywords: range factor
Date: 8 Jan 93 17:22:06 GMT
Organization: University of California, Davis






In article <roney.726456466@sfu.ca> roney@selkirk.sfu.ca (Chris J. Roney)
writes:
>
>    I have a question about "range factor".  If I understand
>correctly, a major (THE major?) component of this is the number of
>defensive plays made.  Last year I was a little surprised at how low
>the number of plays made were for several players (Roberto Alomar
>being one).  One possible pattern I noticed was that a number of these
>surprises were infielders playing on artificial turf.  This sort of
>made sense to me, since it seems possible that more balls scoot
>through the infield and are unplayable on turf.  What I'm wondering
>is 1) does anybody know if this is a real effect? and 2) if it is,
>does it get accounted for in "range factor"?
>     Thanks!
>
>-- 
>Chris Roney  (e-mail chris_roney@sfu.ca)

Actually, in the paper I read (USA Today "Baseball Weekly"), the range
factor is defensive chances (plays made + errors).  There is no accounting
for home turf--  except in the interpretation!  In every article I've
seen, they say that Robbie Alomar's range is better than his score on this
scale.  On the other hand, Jose Oopserman has absolutely no excuse for his
low range score!  This statistic is interesting, but not as useful as,
say, fielding percentage.
--Mitchell Watnik
(mrwatnik@ucdavis.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: george@sabre.cit.cornell.edu (George Boyce)
Subject: Re: Which baseball publication is the best one to subscribe to?
Nntp-Posting-User: @cornell.edu
Organization: Cornell Information Technologies
        <03JAN93.20307003.0037@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA>
        <1993Jan5.192920.20979@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 20:18:43 GMT

Average circulation numbers are:

        Baseball America        60,000
        Baseball Digest        270,000

So the Digest certainly does have a market for its style of publication.

George
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: hmn@boggs.cc.ncsu.edu (Harry Nicholos)
Subject: Re: Bill James help
Reply-To: hmn@boggs.cc.ncsu.edu (Harry Nicholos)
Organization: North Carolina State University
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 18:08:26 GMT


--In article <1993Jan10.195524.4811@wkuvx1.bitnet>, cabanrf@wkuvx1.bitnet writes:
|> Subject: Bill James help
|> 
|> I was looking through my books and I realized that sometime in the
|> last 4 moves I have lost the 86 & 87 Baseball Abstracts by Bill James. 
|> I _liked_ them old books.
|> 
|> Is anyone willing to sell  the 86 or 87 Baseball abstracts or knows
|> where one is in a used book store?
|> Condition is unimportant as long as I can read them and they don't
|> have pages missing.
|> fall apart.  These are for reading, not collecting.
|> 
|> 87 was the last year wasn't it?
|> 


Try the remaindered sections of bookstores (like B.Dalton and Walden).  I've 
seen them there lots of times.  Even better, they're new and real cheap.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Harry Nicholos       KD4TCS     |>>Not always correct, but never in doubt<<
VMS Systems Programmer          | Harry_Nicholos@ncsu.edu
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