HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sasafw@dobo.unx.sas.com (Fred Welden)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re:    Theme?
Date: 5 Nov 92 18:50:23 GMT
Article-I.D.: unx.Bx9B00.MsA
Organization: Dobonia
Originator: sasafw@dobo.unx.sas.com


In article <92310.095916KVJLC@ASUACAD.BITNET>, Jon L. Campbell <KVJLC@ASUACAD.BITNET> writes:
|A story of love is only
|a series of sporadic events in which multiple random events are brought
|together by chance.  Dick meets Jane at the park, they fall in love and
|through a series of events marry each other.  Their chance encounter
|in the park is not a moral passage in time, but characteristic of the
|chaos that occasionally brings unlike events together.

There's a theme.

|I can't imagine why anyone would try to
|influence the reader with their idea of what is moral and what isn't.
|
|What do you think? 

I'm not convinced that "theme" and "moral" are the same thing, nor that
"moral" in the sense of the moral of a story has very much to do with
the tenets of a moral viewpoint, but grant for the moment that Garner
means them to be closely related:

If you're not going to try to influence the reader, why concern yourself
with the reader in any way?  Just keep a journal of all these random,
chaotic events around you for your own perusal.  As soon as you ask
someone to read what you've written, you are trying to influence them.

If you're trying to influence them, why should you avoid trying to
influence their moral judgment?  If there is no such thing as morality,
as you suggest, then this will have no more significant impact than
trying to influence their esthetic judgment by making them realize that
the story in hand is well-worded.  If there is such a thing as morality,
is there a more benign way to attempt to educate people in yours than by
writing stories about it?

You might note, by the way, that "Crime pays" is every bit as much a
moral, and a tenet of a moral viewpoint, as "Crime doesn't pay." Sounds
to me like the moral of your stories would be something like "Shit
happens." Perhaps not a terribly interesting moral, but a moral
nonetheless.

| Does anyone out there still use a theme in their stories?

Yep.  Myself, and just about every writer I've read.

Now I'm curious.  Why exactly do you want to write fiction anyway?


-- 
--Fred, or another blind 8th-century BC  |  sasafw@dobo.unx.sas.com
        Hellenic poet of the same name.  |
From: chalmers@ora.com (Leslie Chalmers)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Critique Wanted-Poetry
Date: 6 Nov 92 17:51:41 GMT
Article-I.D.: ora.BxB2y5.6q8
Organization: O'Reilly & Associates, Inc.


I'm debating whether to axe or keep the last line of the following poem.
Open to suggestions.



             The glassy moon appears
             as day weaves its night
             and gold beams spin silver lace.
             I walk down the grey hill
             to the house shrouded in silver veils
             of mist.
             My edges fade and swirl
             through your sky.
             Your eyes tangle in my words.




Thanks! (Poem is untitled; I was calling it <A Dream> just cause it was--
any suggestions for titles are also welcomed.)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: sasafw@dobo.unx.sas.com (Fred Welden)
Subject: Re: A gender neutral pronoun, was Fundamentalist Nightmare
Originator: sasafw@dobo.unx.sas.com
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 15:16:29 GMT
Organization: Dobonia


In article <BxI7u1.LwE@unx.sas.com>, saslpo@stevens.unx.sas.com (Len Olszewski) writes:
|
|Finally, the execrable solution of overusing the passive voice can be
|applied. This way, avoiding mentioning a subject altogether can be
|achieved. Most will agree that this is the way some of the worst writing
|is performed.

"It will be agreed by most. . . ."


-- 
--Fred, or another blind 8th-century BC  |  sasafw@dobo.unx.sas.com
        Hellenic poet of the same name.  |
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: bechdol@rchland.vnet.ibm.com (Jeff Bechdol)
Subject: Re: Critique Wanted-Poetry
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1992 23:35:44 GMT
Reply-To: bechdol@vnet.ibm.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Rochester

Greetings!

My general comment would be to keep the last line, put the poem away for a couple
of weeks, then, when the weeks have past, read it again.  I find it often takes
several revisions before I'm happy with something I've written.

However, my style would be to end in rhyme and title the poem with the last few
words... as below:

In article <BxB2y5.6q8@ora.com>, chalmers@ora.com (Leslie Chalmers) writes:
|> 

			"Your Eyes"
			-----------


|>              The glassy moon appears
|>              as day weaves its night
|>              and gold beams spin silver lace.
|>              I walk down the grey hill
|>              to the house shrouded in silver veils
|>              of mist.
|>              My edges fade and swirl
|>              through your sky.
		Falling in reflections
		from the image of
		your eyes.


But this would be my style which may not fit the impressions and emotions you
were intending.  Put it away, look at it again in a couple of weeks.

Have fun!


-- 
                                                                     Cheers,

                                                          Jeffery A. Bechdol
"Seek first to understand, then to be understood."  IBM/ABS System Design II
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internet: bechdol@vnet.ibm.com                           Voice: 507/253-5500
  Office: rchland(bechdol)                                 Fax: 507/253-8684
    Post: 3605 Hwy. 52 North; Rochester, MN 55901-7829     T/L: 553
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
            Disclaimer: These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: ds@tejas.watson.ibm.com (Dinkar Sitaram)
Subject: Ahimsa - a digression
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 17:48:18 GMT
Reply-To: ds@tejas.watson.ibm.com (Dinkar Sitaram)
Organization: IBM TJ Watson Research

I wanted to correct (if that is not too harsh a term) the explanation
of ahimsa in Fred Welden's excellent post on "Theme - moral".  Since
this is not really relevant to misc.writing, I think any further
correspondence should be by e-mail.

In article <BxIBD6.45x@unx.sas.com>, sasafw@dobo.unx.sas.com (Fred
Welden) writes:
|> 
|> [Ahimsa is an Indian philosophy that holds all life sacred and dictates
|> that its practitioners go to heroic lengths to avoid killing anything.

This is not completely correct.  "Ahimsa" can be translated literally
as "non-violence" ("a" = non; "himsa" = violence) and is a principle, not
a philosophy.  It is possible to have more than one philosophy based on
ahimsa; the example you have quoted is a particular Jain philosophy (I
am not familiar enough with Jain philosophies to tell you what the name
is).  Mahatma Gandhi, for example, believed in ahimsa but did not sweep
the ground while walking, since he accepted the principle but had a
different philosophy.  In fact, the principle is accepted in general by
Hindus and Buddhists as well, but your example is not.

Your statement of the principle may also be inaccurate.  I believe that
the prohibition is against not harming or not causing pain to any living
being (there are actually two variants here).  In any case, the prohibition
is more general than "not killing anything".  Also, the prohibition does
not necessarily imply that life is sacred; in fact, in some philosophies,
division of things into "sacred" and "non-sacred" is meaningless; and other
philosophies believe that in some sense, everything is alive. 

|> They must
|> either be unaware of, or try not to think of, what goes on all the time
|> in their own bodies--their immune systems and their colons.]

This is also not quite correct.  I am not completely familiar with these
philosophies, but I believe that they accept that complete non-violence
is impossible.  Towards the end of one's life, one is expected to do
penance for all the inadvertant violence one has committed.  

Dinkar




Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: guay@fraser.sfu.ca (Tim Guay)
Subject: Re: On-line Writing Workshop?
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 19:20:48 GMT

In article <50590002@hpopd.pwd.hp.com> ag@hpopd.pwd.hp.com (andy garton) writes:
>There was a recent post regarding an on-line writer's workshop.  I've since
>lost this post but did try emailing the quoted address of -
>
>        writers-request@studgruppy.lan1.gov
>
>This however gets rejected with an 'unknown host' message.
>
That's because it is NOT .lan1. it IS .lanl. as in lower case L.


Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: news@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (News)
Subject: Playing God
Followup-To: misc.writing
Organization: UIUC
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 04:21:40 GMT

In article <92314.140929KVJLC@ASUACAD.BITNET>, Jon L. Campbell
<KVJLC@ASUACAD.BITNET> wrote:
> 
> 

> Plain and simple when
> someone attempts to subvert a story with their own ideas of morality, then
> they are playing god with the mind of the reader.  Because morality in the
> story is so subtle, it is subliminal and therefore, dangerous.  A means of
> invoking thoughts and prejudices, love and hate, right and wrong, but who
> among any writer has that responsibility.

Ah, Jon...  This is *why* writers write and artists create art and actors
act.
When you (the audience) experience something that is well crafted, we
(the creators) are offering  you a look at the world from a different 
perspective--our own.  And morality is a unique part of each of our 
perspectives.

When you read something *I* write, I hope that
you will come away with a view of duty and
honor that is slightly different than the one you already have.
I want you to see, from my p.o.v., how guilt can warp our lives
and how responsiblity can be more important than personal happiness.

I write suspense fiction, and I've failed if you are bored by the world
I've created.  I want you to be involved enough 
in the people I've introduced that you'll  hurt--just a little-- when they
are hurting and  you'll hold your breath--for just a moment--when they
are in trouble.  And maybe someday  (if I've done my job really  well) when
you are confronting some personal dilemna, you'll find yourself 
remembering that one of my characters handled a similar problem.  Maybe
you'll find some comfort in the thought that our worlds have much
in common.

Am I playing  God when I write ?  You bet I am.  That's my * job*, Jon.
In my make-believe world, I *am* the creator and you are my 
invited guest.

Every time you read a book, view a piece of sculpture, watch a movie,
you are entering  a world of someone else's making.
While you're visiting, you'll be shown the thoughts and prejudices,
loves and hates, and rights and wrongs that exist in *that* world.  Then,
at your discretion, you can use what you've learned to re-form your own
perspective.

If you want to avoid themes and morality--if you're truly afraid of
subtle, subliminal, and dangerous viewpoints, then your only safety
is in cookbooks, user's manuals, and soup can labels.

Maureen 
From: jeffo@uiuc.edu (J.B. Nicholson-Owens)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: tmaddox@netcom.com (Tom Maddox)
Subject: Re: Theme?
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 03:29:58 GMT

In article <92310.095916KVJLC@ASUACAD.BITNET> Jon L. Campbell <KVJLC@ASUACAD.BITNET> writes:
>
>   I know this subject has probably been hacked to death, but I
>have been struggling with the concept of theme since reading what
>John Garner wrote in his guide for the beginning writer.  He points
>out that stories need a theme if they are to be effective(?), etc.
>
>   My problem with this, is that writing a story with a theme implies
>that every story has a moral to be told.  Or should have a moral, but
>I have problems with this concept because I believe that the essence of
>truth is chaotic.  

	Then that's your theme.  "Theme" and "moral" are not equivalent.

	(True, Gardner sometimes made "moral fiction" compulsory, but this is
a polemical view, certainly not a universally accepted one.  See, for instance,
the William Gass essay, "Beauty Knows Nothing of Goodness," for a contrary
view.)


-- 
				Tom Maddox
		    	    tmaddox@netcom.com
		"The Reptoids eat humans like we eat chickens."
				Alex Alexander
From: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian)
Subject: Fiction Advice 3: Style
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 04:16:54 GMT

STYLE: CHECKLIST FOR FICTION WRITERS

As you begin to develop your outline, and then the actual text of your novel,
you can save time and energy by making sure that your writing style requires
virtually no copy editing. In the narrative:

1. Do any sentences begin with the words "There" or "It"? They can almost
certainly benefit from revision. (Compare: There were three gunmen who had
sworn to kill him. It was hard to believe. or: Three gunmen had sworn to kill
him. He couldn't believe it.)

2. Are you using passive voice instead of active voice? (Compare: Is passive
voice being used?) Put it in active voice!

3. Are you repeating what you've already told your readers? Are you
telegraphing your punches?

4. Are you using trite phrases, cliches, or deliberately unusual words? You'd
better have a very good reason for doing so.

5. Are you terse? Or, alternatively, are you on the other hand expressing and
communicating your thoughts and ideas with a perhaps excessive and abundant
plethora of gratuitous and surplus verbiage, whose predictably foreseeable
end results, needless to say, include as a component part a somewhat
repetitious redundancy?

6. Are you grammatically correct? Are spelling and punctuation correct? (This
is not mere detail work, but basic craft. Learn standard English or forget
about writing novels.)

7. Is the prose fluent, varied in rhythm, and suitable in tone to the type of
story you're telling?

8. Are you as narrator intruding on the story through witticisms,
editorializing, or self-consciously, inappropriately "fine" writing?

In the dialogue:

9. Are you punctuating dialogue correctly, so that you neither confuse nor
distract your readers?

10. Are your characters speaking naturally, as they would in reality, but
more coherently?

11. Does every speech advance the story, revealing something new about the
plot or the characters? If not, what is its justification?

12. Are your characters so distinct in their speech--in diction, rhythm, and
mannerism--that you rarely need to add "he said" or "she said"?
From: echyatt@eos.ncsu.edu (EDWARD CRAIG HYATT)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Ethics, publishing and the net
Date: 11 Nov 92 00:46:18 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos

In article <1992Nov3.235232.7506@netcom.com> tmaddox@netcom.com (Tom Maddox) writes:
>	As the AutoPope urged (and who am I to fight ex cathedra 
>pronouncements?), I am using this group to announce recently published work.
>
	(edited)
>
>
>-- 
>				Tom Maddox
>		    	    tmaddox@netcom.com
>		"The Reptoids eat humans like we eat chickens."
>				Alex Alexander


I'm disturbed by this new trend of announcing new publications.

This amounts a commercial use of the Internet, which is strictly forbidden.

If this kind of thing gets started, the place will become cluttered
with advertisements.  I'm not the net police or anything, but I
don't like it....

-Craig Hyatt

-- 
--------------------
Craig Hyatt
NCSU@Raleigh, NC USA
echyatt@eos.ncsu.edu
--------------------
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Newsgroups: misc.writing

It has been pointed out that my last response was very poorly worded.  What
I am in fact asking is--what exactly is the 'on-line writers workshop'?

I understood it to be a mailing list whereby any message sent is received
by the other people on the mailing list.  Having not received any such mail
therefore, I was just trying to ensure that my message to 'writers-request@
studguppy.lanl.gov' had in fact been sent properly.

Sorry for any confusion...

Andy
ag@hpopd.pwd.hp.com
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian)
Subject: Fiction Advice: Postscript
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 04:41:37 GMT

Good heavens--17 files in 15 minutes! Ain't technology grand!

Slight correction: the files total about 100K; I miscounted.

Doubtless some postings have typos or noise...but I hope enough got through
to do you some good and encourage you to take a shot at writing fiction--or
another shot at that damn novel you've been chipping away at for the last few
years.

I hope my comments draw some responses, criticism, rebuttals, anecdotal
evidence, aspersions on my ancestry, and anything else that may come to mind.
But unless you want to share painful intimacies via e-mail, why not put your
comments in the newsgroup where everyone can benefit from them! Thanks for
your interest and your patience. Cheers, CK
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: logan@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Richard Scott)
Subject: Ravenscar Nights shared fictional writing world
Summary: information
Keywords: writers and readers wanted
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 11:31:23 GMT



There is a mailing list set up as an offshoot of the Vampyres mailing
list.  It is a shared world where many writers write stories based on
the city of Ravenscar.

The stories, character sketches, and place sketches are available via
FTP, and when I have a nice informative passage about that, I will.

You can write to me at logan@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au for details.  Some
stories have progressed as far as part 10 or 11.  I am slack, and am
only up to part 6 :).  Types of characters include vampires, mages,
morphs, human vampire hunters, and an inter-dimensional alien invasion
is on the way.  There is also a super-powered vigilante running around,
and plenty of not-so ordinary humans.

You don't have to write anything to be put on the mailing list, all
readers are welcome.  (Although you may be called a lurker from time to
time).  There are quite a lot of these, so do not let that worry you.

The more people there are, the better, and I will post more details in
the future, after the FTP site is fully documented.


Hoping to hear from you!!

Richard  (logan@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au)

  
-- 
AussieVamp 
AussieMan, Neophyte Vampire and DarkWolf
(Eric Clapton is God!!!)   [ and there is Bobby Fischer... ;-) ]
(Walter Payton, Mike Singletary and Neal Anderson form the Holy Trinity!)

-- 
AussieVamp 
AussieMan, Neophyte Vampire and DarkWolf
(Eric Clapton is God!!!)   [ and there is Bobby Fischer... ;-) ]
(Walter Payton, Mike Singletary and Neal Anderson form the Holy Trinity!)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: news@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (News)
Subject: Playing God; was Morality/Theme
Followup-To: misc. writing
Organization: UIUC
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 04:22:11 GMT

In article <92314.140929KVJLC@ASUACAD.BITNET>, Jon L. Campbell
<KVJLC@ASUACAD.BITNET> wrote:
> 
> 

> Plain and simple when
> someone attempts to subvert a story with their own ideas of morality, then
> they are playing god with the mind of the reader.  Because morality in the
> story is so subtle, it is subliminal and therefore, dangerous.  A means of
> invoking thoughts and prejudices, love and hate, right and wrong, but who
> among any writer has that responsibility.

Ah, Jon...  This is *why* writers write and artists create art and actors
act.
When you (the audience) experience something that is well crafted, we
(the creators) are offering  you a look at the world from a different 
perspective--our own.  And morality is a unique part of each of our 
perspectives.

When you read something *I* write, I hope that
you will come away with a view of duty and
honor that is slightly different than the one you already have.
I want you to see, from my p.o.v., how guilt can warp our lives
and how responsiblity can be more important than personal happiness.

I write suspense fiction, and I've failed if you are bored by the world
I've created.  I want you to be involved enough 
in the people I've introduced that you'll  hurt--just a little-- when they
are hurting and  you'll hold your breath--for just a moment--when they
are in trouble.  And maybe someday  (if I've done my job really  well) when
you are confronting some personal dilemna, you'll find yourself 
remembering that one of my characters handled a similar problem.  Maybe
you'll find some comfort in the thought that our worlds have much
in common.

Am I playing  God when I write ?  You bet I am.  That's my * job*, Jon.
In my make-believe world, I *am* the creator and you are my 
invited guest.

Every time you read a book, view a piece of sculpture, watch a movie,
you are entering  a world of someone else's making.
While you're visiting, you'll be shown the thoughts and prejudices,
loves and hates, and rights and wrongs that exist in *that* world.  Then,
at your discretion, you can use what you've learned to re-form your own
perspective.

If you want to avoid themes and morality--if you're truly afraid of
subtle, subliminal, and dangerous viewpoints, then your only safety
is in cookbooks, user's manuals, and soup can labels.

Maureen
From: sasafw@dobo.unx.sas.com (Fred Welden)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Theme ~ Moral
Date: 10 Nov 92 15:42:58 GMT
Article-I.D.: unx.BxIBnM.4G7
Organization: Dobonia
Originator: sasafw@dobo.unx.sas.com


In article <1992Nov10.065900.28476@nwnexus.WA.COM>, elf@halcyon.com (Elf Sternberg) writes:
|
|   I'm not going to shirk my feelings for the sake of a "good" story.
|"With great power comes great responsibility," "The highest human value
|is personal responsibility," "Everything in human experience is
|negotiable," "Free will is good," "Technology is inherently the tool of
|people, neither good nor evil in its own right," and so forth... these
|are _my_ beliefs, and no 'protagonist' of mine is going to argue
|against them.  Not only would I not respect myself in the morning, but
|I doubt I could convincingly write such a story.

This an interesting outlook.  I find I tend to write stories in which I
disagree with the moral outlook and personal philosophy of some of the
characters--as often as not, the protagonist.  The protagonist of my
novel, REMOTE CONTROL, is a violent, manipulative, and self-righteous
bigot.  I think writing these stories is one way I have of coming to
terms with the fact that most people don't agree with my own
philosophical viewpoint, even though it is patently superior. :)

-- 
--Fred, or another blind 8th-century BC  |  sasafw@dobo.unx.sas.com
        Hellenic poet of the same name.  |
Newsgroups: misc.writing