HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bkgray@Chaos.mcs.kent.edu (Brian Gray)
Subject: Re: BSA: Eagle in Jeopardy
Keywords: eagle BSA theft
Organization: Kent State University
Distribution: usa
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1992 15:29:21 GMT

In article <1992Apr11.070912.11906@muddcs.claremont.edu> jallen@jarthur.claremont.edu (Jeff R. Allen) writes:
>There is an boy in our troop that has just recently gotten his Eagle
>scout rank. The boy's application has been approved by the National
>Office and he has received the patch and certificate in the mail. He
>was planning on holding a Court of Honor in May.
>
>The problem is that he was caught stealing recently by the Sherrif's office
>that he works in in connection with his Explorer Post

There is no provision that I am aware of for revoking an Eagle Scout
rank (or any other rank or Merit Badge) rank after it has been earned
(i.e., after National has approved it).

If the thefts were discovered after the Court of Honor (either days or
months or years later) there would be no question about his having
earned the rank.  I don't think that the fact that the thefts were
discovered before the Court of Honor is relevant to the question of his
earning the award.

The Scout, his parents, the Scoutmaster, and the Troop Committee have
the responsibility to decide how (or if) the rank is formally presented
(just as with every other Eagle Scout presentation).  They do have some
additional circumstances to deal with in this case, but I think that it
is still that group's call to make.

(For what it's worth, I would lean toward a small, relatively private
formal presentation.)

brian

Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.atheism
From: glew@pdx007.intel.com (Andy Glew)
Subject: Re: B.S.A. Belief in God Requirement (and UW)
Organization: Intel Corp., Hillsboro, Oregon
	<1992Apr15.172536.20553@m.cs.uiuc.edu>
	<1992Apr15.190413.5726@news.nd.edu>
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 00:51:45 GMT

    The Boy Scouts also tend to want their boys to (gasp) say the pledge of 
    allegiance.  The pledge of allegiance says (gaps), one nation under 
		    >>>>>>>>>>>>>GOD, <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
    indivisable, with liberty and justice for all.

(1) I hope that the pledge of allegiance is not required of
    non-American citizens who happen to be living in the United
    States and working with BSA troops.

(2) The pledge of allegiance has other problems:

    "I pledge my allegiance to the flag of the United States..."

    Quite a few Christian groups take the words about graven images
    literally, and refuse to take a pledge like this.
--

Andy Glew, glew@ichips.intel.com
Intel Corp., M/S JF1-19, 5200 NE Elam Young Pkwy, 
Hillsboro, Oregon 97124-6497

This is a private posting; it does not indicate opinions or positions
of Intel Corp.

Intel Inside (tm)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: troy@bert.eecs.uic.edu (Patrick Troy)
Subject: Greetings from a new reader
Summary: Hello from a Chicago Scout
Keywords: greetings Chicago
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 16:33:14 GMT

Hello fellow scouters.

I just found this news group and it seems that people are posting short
introductions about themselves, so here is mine.

I have been involved with scouting for the last 20 years as a Cub Scout,
Boy Scout and Summer Camp Counsellor in the Chicago Area, BSA.  I am not
currently involved with any troops, but I am the camp director of one of
the Chicago Area Council's summer camp.  The camp is Camp Blackhawk at 
Owassipe Scout Reservation. 

Take care and have fun scouting.

Pat Troy
troy@bert.eecs.uic.edu
Department of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
University if Illinois at Chicago
Chicago, IL 60680
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: BSA: Discrimination?
Date: 8 Apr 92 00:00:17 GMT
Article-I.D.: transfer.1975
Distribution: usa
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

In article <1992Apr4.030639.27116@panix.com>, ss@panix.com (Steve Steinberg) writes:
> >If, on the other hand, nobody in the community takes issue with it
> >(meaning also that the gays and atheists are somehow content not to
> >participate) then life goes on as usual, and everybody is happy.
> 
> The problem is that even if the community at large were happy with that
> unit , someone would get upset and write to the local papers, or write
> to national, and it would be a big deal and the troop would be forced
> to allow that discriminatee to join. 

But this describes a mechanism of COMMUNITY pressure.  The fact that the
letter writer is not dismissed as a nutcase says that a significant portion
of the local community is hearing from their conscience that this sort of
discrimination may in fact NOT be right.  In which case, the troop is sent 
an important social message about their own community standards.

> The chartered org is probably
> a church (yes, I'm generalizing) and would be "forced" to revoke the
> unit's charter on moral grounds 

This is a big assumption.  Many posters with experience in this area have
already indicated that the CO is already not authorized to discriminate in
circumstances where they otherwise would (i.e., for their own membership);
and have also stated that, historically, CO's have ALREADY exhibited laudable 
social tolerance in these situations.  

Indeed, one specific poster here has tried his best to convince us that the 
vast majority of real Americans can be counted on to stand squarely behind 
his "traditional" intolerance in these circumstances.  I simply think he 
underestimates Americans; that he's holding onto theories which have long
since been abandoned by a more significant number of people than he suspects.

> The PTA won't take us.  Most synagogues complain about saturday activities.
> The troop falls apart.  50 kids (generalizing again) are now without the
> benefits of scouting (and become drug addicts, or worse, never camp again).

Sounds too much like the old domino theory; I'm understandably skeptical.
It smacks of the old "Let One In And There Goes The Neighborhood" routine.

> This is reason for national sticking with these rules. 

It's not what I'd call a reasonable probablistic risk assessment; it's also
not the "official" reasons they give in their policy statement.  I certainly
would hope they wouldn't quote something resembling the above.

> I do not like
> these practices, but I'd rather see a discriminatory BSA then no BSA.

There's a third choice, of course, which is that which I hope someday to see.
-- 

cdt@pdp.sw.stratus.com      --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: schumach@convex.com (Richard A. Schumacher)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: It'd Be A Shame
Date: 7 Apr 92 23:59:08 GMT
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In <1992Apr6.144534.21593@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> whs70@dancer.uucp (24411-sohl) writes:

>So, as the original commentor mentioned, this would certainly allow
>(In my opinion) anyone with any belief in a supreme being/entity
>to honestly fulfill the BSA's religious/reverent requirments.
>The individual who would not be able to honestly comply with this
>would be an atheist.  


It also excludes anyone with multiple gods as well as atheists and 
antitheists. And somehow you manage to claim that this does not constitute
religious discrimination? Don't be silly.
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: edelheit@smiley.mitre.org (Jeff Edelheit)
Subject: Re: Abandonment of BSA by the PTA
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, McLean, VA
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1992 15:38:10 GMT

The national PTA recommended to it state local organizations that PTAs
not act as a chartering organization because of a BSA change that
requires the chartering organization to perform a background check on
Scouters.  This BSA-mandated change came about because of several lawsuits
related to child abuse.  It those cases, both the individual
committing the abuse and the BSA was held liable.  BSA attempted to
avoid future liability by requiring the chartering organizations be
responsible for background checks.  The national PTA did not feel
comfortable with this and tried to negotiate the issue.  BSA refused
to modify its position and the rest is history.

It is my understanding that the Girl Scouts have no such requirement.

Being a Scouter and the husband of a PTA president, I remember the
period very well.  The Pack leadership acted extremely hostile towards
the PTA; generating a lot of ill will.  In the end, the local
homeowners association agreed to be the chartering organization.  From
my perspective, there has been little, if any, change to the Pack,
other than some hard feelings.

Regards,

Jeff Edelheit		email:  edelheit@mitre.org
The MITRE Corporation	voice:  (703) 883-7586
7525 Colshire Drive	FAX:	(703) 883-1397
McLean, VA   22102
Thus,
From: cdb@waikato.ac.nz (Craig D. Beere)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Re: A Round-Up of Some Thoughts
Date: 8 Apr 92 16:06:33 +1200
Distribution: rec
Organization: University of Waikato, Hamilton, New Zealand

> Hmm, I really think you should modify the above statement.  I see 
> no montheistic requirements anywhere with the BSA. 

I dunno about American requirements, but in New Zealand the Scout Promise
contains the phrase "My God".  Not "My Gods" but "My God".  Singluar.

During my leader training I asked about this and was told that the requirement 
was that Scouts had to believe on one god, who created the world and all in it.

I'm not sure, but I think this rules out both atheists and polytheistics like
the Celtic people, Danish (?) people (believe in Thor, Armageddon etc), etc.

Would BSA accept a Celtic druid?  A person who believed in the Greek Gods?  A
person who believed in Thor, etc?  A Gaianist?

Personally I believe Scouts does discriminate.  I really don't see anything
wrong with this.  We teach Scouts that people with other beliefs are not
inferior, just different.  I view Scouting as like a church.  You don't say
that Roman Catholics discriminate when they don't let Buddists be Catholics, do
you?

I think that things like public funding maybe need to be worked out in
a courtroom.

{*******************************************************************************
** Craig D. Beere  (a.k.a. ++Byron)
** University of Waikato, New Zealand
** CDB@waikato.ac.nz
*}
{$I standard_disclaimer}
{$I witty_quote}
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: fell@sol.UVic.CA (Stuart Fell)
Subject: games
Organization: University of Victoria, Victoria, B.C. CANADA
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 92 23:36:20 GMT

Does anyone have any good indoor game suggestions.  Our troup has
boys of such different physical builds that the games need to be fair
to the boys...

Any good wide game suggestions??

We are getting low on ideas and our boys are wanting some new games...

Thanks...

Stuart Fell
6th Cedar Hill Scout Troup

Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: bk233@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jack W. Weinmann)
Subject: Interesting Closing Thought
Reply-To: bk233@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jack W. Weinmann)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 92 08:43:55 GMT


I found an interesting closing thought that I would like to share.  It
comes from a Pow-Wow book from Indian Nations Council.  Their address is:

			  Indian Nations Council
                          3206 S. Peoria
                          Tulsa, Oklahoma 74105
                          Phone: (918) - 743-6125

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Closing Thought:
  
     The other day in Colorado a great stalwart tree fell.  It was nearly
800 years old, a mere sapling when Columbus landed at San Salvador.  It had
been struck by lightning 14 times; it had braved the storms of almost eight
(note: original said 5) centuries.  It had defied earthquakes and
hurricanes; it had laughed in scorn at the winter's blast and blizzards.

     But in the end, tiny beetles killed it.  They bored under the bark,
dug into its heart, and one day down came this mighty king of the forest.

     It is the little things that make or break us -- in our business --
our profession -- our homes -- our lives -- and in Scouting.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

I just happened to like this thought and wanted to share it with the group.

I guess our fellow Scouters outside the US could easily change some of the
words if they wished, to make it more suited to their own countries. 

Note: I have no connection to Indian Nations Council - I just happen to
like their material - Thank you Indian Nations!

     +------------------------------------------------+-------------------+
     | Jack W. Weinmann  bk233@cleveland.freenet.edu  |  \  /\  /|E       |
     |                  jweinman@heartland.bradley.edu|   \/  \/ |C       |
     +------------------------------------------------+          |C  J W  |
     |     "If you ever forget that the BOYS are      |          |S       |
     |    the most important part of the program -    |          |  19    |
     |                                                |          +------  |
     |          FIND SOMETHING ELSE TO DO!"           |            /  \   |
     |                                                |           ( 90 )  |
     |   - Mr. John Gitzen, CM  ECCS-19 Wood Badge    |            \__/   |
     +------------------------------------------------+-------------------+
From: goehring@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Scott Goehring)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.atheism
Subject: Re: B.S.A. Belief in God Requirement (and UW)
Date: 16 Apr 92 00:06:42 GMT
	<1992Apr15.172536.20553@m.cs.uiuc.edu>
	<1992Apr15.190413.5726@news.nd.edu>
Reply-To: goehring@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Followup-To: rec.scouting
Distribution: usa
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center

ckennedy@sleepy.helios.nd.edu (chris kennedy) writes:

>The Boy Scouts also tend to want their boys to (gasp) say the pledge
>of allegiance.  The pledge of allegiance says (gaps), one nation
>under GOD, indivisable, with liberty and justice for all.

Please note, however, that the words "under God" were added but
recently (sometime in the 70s, as I recall).  Although I never
personally say the Pledge, were I to I would be silent for those two
words, or omit them altogether if I was saying it alone.

--
As to Jesus of Nazareth.... I think the system of Morals and his religion, as
he left them to us, the best the world has saw or is likely to see; but I
apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of
the dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity.  -- Ben Franklin
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: merlyn@digibd.com (Merlyn LeRoy)
Subject: Re: It'd Be A Shame
Organization: DigiBoard Incorporated, Eden Prairie, MN
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1992 13:25:48 GMT

whs70@dancer.uucp (24411-sohl) writes:
[much omitted re: supreme being, oaths, etc]
>The individual who would not be able to honestly comply with this
>would be an atheist.  

Mr. Sohl, I find it interesting you would followup to followups
of my original reply to your article but not address my original
statement.  The BSA did not honestly comply with the United Way
requirements to not religiously discriminate when they (the BSA)
accepted funding.  Do you support the BSA taking money under false
pretenses?  Is it OK for the BSA to lie to get funded?  Don't you
find the BSA's actions reprehensible & hypocritical?

>Bill Sohl, Budd Lake, NJ Troop 62 Committee, (Scoutmaster 1987-88)

---
Merlyn LeRoy
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: dpfabie@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (David Paul Fabie)
Subject: Re: Request for information
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Distribution: rec.scouting
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1992 07:22:35 GMT

In article <1992Apr10.053237.11211@newserve.cc.binghamton.edu> ba06103@bingsunp (ba06103) writes:
>
>  To all Bayern Staff past and present,
>     This year I was offered a job at camp Bayern. Unfortunaltly I couldn't
>attend because the program was running for to short a time ( 3 weeks! ) I was
>wondering if anybody could tell me if 93 will be so short a season. I would
>love to work there oney year.

That is hard to say, TAC as of right now is not planning of BHAC running in
93.  Then again they did not plan on us running in 89, 90, 0r 91 and we
still did.   The chances of your having a the opportunity to staff BHAC are
rather grim I'm afraid.  And that is too bad.  Having staffed there five
years, and served the last three as Program Director, I can say there  is
not a camp like it on the face of this Earth.  If you  have your heart set
on a TAC camp for '93, your best bet is to apply at Freedom.  My guess is
that if any TAC camp runs next year it will be that one.  Just out of 
curiosity, what job did Vince offer you?

In Scouting,
Dave
-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Paul Fabie                   * "Remember! Editors never reject.  We
University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee  *  merely select." - David Kirby
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: merlyn@digibd.com (Merlyn LeRoy)
Subject: Re: It'd Be A Shame
Organization: DigiBoard Incorporated, Eden Prairie, MN
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1992 13:14:43 GMT

dpfabie@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (David Paul Fabie) writes:
>In article <1992Apr04.162443.8497@digibd.com> merlyn@digibd.com (Merlyn LeRoy) writes:
>>You mean you support the BSA's original actions of accepting money
>>from the United Way under false pretenses and defrauding United Way
>>contributors like myself?  The UW requires that organizations which
>>receive its funding not discriminate on the basis of religion, and
>>the BSA damn well knew that.  Yet they proceed to exclude on the basis
>>of religion.

>Mr. Sohl,
I'm Merlyn LeRoy, I was replying to Sohl.
Read attributions.

>The BSA does not discriminate on the basis of religion,
>we discriminate on the basis of a lack of religion.

Which is STILL against the nondiscrimination terms put forth by the UW.

>All that the BSA 
>asks is that its members hold a belief in God, whether that god is Allah
>or Jesus or the great blue crystal in the corner of your bedroom makes
>no difference.  The idea that there is a higher power to which we as
>beings of concious, were created by.  That's all.

It doesn't matter; the point is that the BSA commited FRAUD to get
large amounts of money from the United Way by promising to not discriminate
on the basis of religion, and then discriminating on the basis of religion.
Saying atheism doesn't count is ridiculous word-weaseling.

>>I thought the Boy Scouts were supposed to be honest.  Oh well.

>Far more honest than the United Ways National Chairman, I dare say.

>The United Way had best clean up its own reeking scandals before it takes any
>high ground with the BSA.

Ah, I see; it doesn't matter if the BSA is honest if they can point
fingers...

I'd also point out the BSA commited fraud well before the UW scandal,
AND the United Way is taking its lumps and cleaning up its act, while
the BSA has done nothing but sandbag.

---
Merlyn LeRoy
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: sayle@ucs.ubc.ca (Ralph Sayle)
Subject: Re: Sea Scouts
Organization: UBC
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 19:25:00 GMT

About 30 (brief) years back, I was a member of a Sea Scout Troop in Vancouver,
Canada. Although our group no longer exists there still are some Sea Scout
Troops active here. 

After our troop converted from "Land" Scouts to Sea Scouts we still kept up our
land activities.  Our watches (in Boy Scouts parlance, patrols) always did well
in the annual district camporee and we had an all-weather cabin on a local ski
mountain about an hour's drive away from our meeting hall. This was a
wilderness cabin that was a 30 minute walk from the road and always snowbound
in the winter. (It's age, poor foundations and government policy condemned it
about 5 years ago. I still have great memories from a dozen years of cabin'ing
on Syemour.)

We originally had a former lifeboat, jury rigged for sailing, for our troop
boat until we managed to purchase a 26 foot naval whaler from the government.
We spent many summer days sailing around English Bay and then have our little
Seagull outboard putt-putt us back to our dock in False Creek after the wind
always disappeared in the evening. 
 
We used to participate against the other Sea Scout Troops in a yearly regatta.
This was a harder competition than the camporees cause the other Sea Scouts
Troops were pretty damn good. Aside from the whaler races (ohh, my calloused
hands), we had semaphore and marching. There are still Sea Scout regattas in
Vancouver but I'm sure they aren't as tough as they were back then...


In article <1992Apr9.150019.7334@waikato.ac.nz> poli2031@waikato.ac.nz writes:
>In article <1992Apr01.153358.2880@donau.et.tudelft.nl>,
rozema@dutecaj.et.tudelft.nl (Jan Rozema) writes:
>> Hello,
>> 
>> Until this year I was leader of a group of sea scouts (I suppose you call
them
>> so, in Dutch they are called 'zeeverkenners'). Do these groups exists in 
>> countries like Canada, America, Australia etc? If they do, I'm very
interested 
>> in their program (global description of what they do in a year), what type
of 
>> sailing boats they use generally etc.
>> 
>> In the Netherlands there is every four year an international camp for sea
>> scouts. This year this camp will be in Roermond in the end of july. Last
time
>> a total of 5000 sea scouts joined this camp. They came from the UK, Belgium,
>> France, Germany, Israel, ..., and of course the Netherlands. If you are
inte-
>> rested in this and you want some info please email me. 
>> 
>> Thanks for any info,
>>                      Jan Rozema
>>                      rozema@duteca.et.tudelft.nl
>> 
>>          
>I know that the Sea Scouts exit in Malaysia but there are very few troops as
>far as I know.  When I was in the scouts one of the troops in school was a sea
>scout group and I do not know if they exist anymore.
>
>Any ex-scouts from Malaysia out there, maybe you might know more about the sea
>scouts in Malaysia.
>


Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: ad980@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Paul S. Wolf)
Subject: Re: Eagle Court of Honor Question
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 92 12:49:19 GMT


Stan:
	You, or the SM or CC should send personal letters to all
the dignitaries you can think of, Inviting them to the Eagle Court.
Obviously few can attend, but ask them if they can send a represent-
ative or a letter of Congrats or a resolution.
	Some will send letters, some will send resolutions, a few
will send a representative to present the letter or resolution.
	The list should include:
		President Bush
		US Senators
		US Rep for the District where the Unit is Chartered
		US Rep for the Scouts home (if different)
		Governor
		State Senator
		State Rep.
		County Officials
		Mayor(s)
		School Superintendent
		Principal
		Clergy
		Chartered Org Executive
		Chairman of Jewish/Catholic/Protestant Committee on
			Scouting (as appropriate)
		Council Scout Exec.
and any others you can think of.
	For President Bush - look through some back issues of Scouting
Magazine, or check out NESA's Eagleletter for the address.

	Good Luck, and wish the new Eagle a Mazel-Tov from me on
behalf of the Cleveland Jewish Committee on Scouting and the Federation
of Jewish Men's Clubs.

	PS: Also notify Jewish War Vets and Knights of Columbus, as they
will send Certificates to ALL new Eagles (regardless of religious affil.)

	Paul Wolf, SM
	Troop 96, Greater Cleveland Council