From: c85perwe@IDA.LiU.SE (Per Westling)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.dipl-l,rec.games.diplomacy
Subject: Re: Historical Variant?
Date: 7 Jan 93 14:44:59 GMT
	<1993Jan5.204844.12434@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> <C0GB2B.GA1@comp.vuw.ac.nz>
Reply-To: c85perwe@und.ida.liu.se
Organization: CIS Dept, University of Linkoping, Sweden

In article <C0GB2B.GA1@comp.vuw.ac.nz> Michael.Norrish@comp.vuw.ac.nz (Michael Norrish) writes:

Michael> Joel> In article <DIPL-L%93010512131700@MITVMA.BITNET>
Michael> Joel> BLT@OSUCC.BITNET writes:
Michael> 
>Dear fellow list members,
>
>    Are there any variants out there that attempt to make Diplomacy
>more historically accurate. Diplomacy is an excellent, well-balanced,
>fun game that recreates well the diplomatic negotiations of the time,
>but it's somewhat lacking as a historical simulator. There are two
>areas for improvement that I see:
There are 1000+ variants around.  Some has been made in attempt to
make Diplomacy more realistic.  But if you do this you should ask
yourself if it's not better to try another game instead?  The basic
idea in Diplomacy is to simulate the Diplomatic process, not to
simulate WWI or even the 1870-1914 period.

Joel> Diplomacy as it exists gives each person more or less the same
Joel> odds of winning, since everyone starts out equal except for
Joel> Russia, who has more fronts to defend.  Making it "historically
Joel> accurate" would mean making France, England, and Germany more
Joel> powerful and Austria, Italy, and Turkey less so.  Diplomacy is
Joel> *not* a World War One simulation game.  It's a game that happens
Joel> to use the map of Europe for its gameboard and draws flavor from
Joel> doing so but that's where it ends.  Diplomacy changed to
Joel> represent the strengths of the powers of the time would no
Joel> longer be Diplomacy.
Michael> 
Michael>    Well that's true tautologically, but it might still be interesting
Michael>    don't you think? Look at the Britain variant, (a game of which, senlac,
Michael>    is waiting for just one more player on the Washington judge, plug plug
Michael>    :-). This starts out with an unbalanced situation but (presumably) the
Michael>    other players can take this into account when they plot and scheme.
Michael>    The 'perfect' diplomacy game never progresses remember, the pack
Michael>    quickly moves to counteract any large lurches the game may make.
Michael>    (Seven gamers trying to balance themselves on the head of a pin, I can
Michael>    just see it :-)
I good Diplomacy variant should be as perferctly balanced as possible,
but sometimes the scenario used requires unbalance.  The Standard game
is *not* perfectly balanced.  There are eg the variant Abstraction II
that uses a slightly different map and each power starts with one army
more.  This is regarded as one of the few variants that is *better*
than the standard game.  Anyway, what most variants lack are an
extensive play.  Not many articles have been written on the Strategy &
Tactics in variants like Youngstown, Abstraction and Machiavelli.

Yes, a good game (which is not uncommon in Face-to-Face games when
it's a final game of a tournament for example) no power has the chance
to run away to the win, as everyone knows that the elimination of any
power will be a bad thing for them (if they are not the eliminator of
course).  I remember one game where I after 7 game years was last on 3
supply centers as Italy, and the biggest power had 7.

>2) Separate the diplomatic struggle for control over small countries
>   and colonies from the military struggle. It was mainly a non-
>   military struggle from 1901 until WWI began in 1914. Some
>   provision would have to be made for the off-map colonies that were
>   negotiated over (e.g. France and Germany over Morocco, France and
>   England over Egypt, England and Russia over Persia). Maybe there
>   should be non- military units that can establish control over
>   minor countries and colonies while that military units wait for
>   war to break out. Or maybe the game shouldn't even try to simulate
>   the military part and should end when war breaks out.

There is one variant (several rather but one especially interesting
for you I think) that is called "1914" and that was published in an
issue of the General.  In this 5-player variant (Turkey/Italy is
neutral) the powers bid for the neutral powers by political points.
It also uses thing like supply lines, traines and bombers.  
The rules of "1914" have been available on the net, and I think Eric
Klien has had openings in it.
 
Joel> The Youngstown variant brings in Asia: India, Japan, and China.
Joel> Even so, this doesn't make it a colonial powers struggle.

And there are Colonia of course.  

Michael>    I think the game Pax Britannica tries to attempt this. I haven't
Michael>    played it, but it is of about the right period and as I've heard, it
Michael>    finishes when everything escalates into global war. I imagine it
Michael>    doesn't have rules that are as nice as Diplomacy's though. So does
Michael>    anyone want to port PB's nice features, (colonial stuff etc), to a Dip
Michael>    variant?

Yes, PB is a nice game. 

Michael>    That, I think would be the real win. I'd like a historical game
Michael>    that was simple to play, that looked as if it might almost be a
Michael>    simulation of the period but which wasn't so honour-bound to the
Michael>    period that players had little choice but to recreate history exactly.
Michael>    Is it possible to come up with such a game?

I don't think PB would be a hit as a Diplomacy variant for two reason.
PB uses written agreements that is almost binding (with severe
penalties if you break them) and during wars there are this
attack-everything effect I don't like.
One of the beauties of Diplomacy is that you have to trust people in
what they say.  Sure you can make up a written agreement.  But just
like in the real world, there are no police to punish you if you break
them, at least if you are a major power.

Michael>    Incidentally, there is an economic variant called Perestroika about
Michael>    that purports to slow the game down a bit. Its basic idea is that with
Michael>    as much to gain from trade, people aren't necessarily as keen to go to
Michael>    war. Is there a variants' bank online yet? I'm sure it'd be a useful
Michael>    resource. 

There are several economic variants.  The biggest one is called
"Hypereconomic Diplomacy", has 60 players and simulates down to the
level of fishing fleets and exchane of prisoners of war.  
No, there are no bank online yet.  I'm the custodian of one of the
banks (the Swedish one) but I have only 20 variants or so scribed, and
currently I have no intention to go online.  
Why do you need it online?  Copies sent by mail suffices quite nicely
I think.  And a great deal of the 1000+ variants uses maps that is not
easy to send by e-mail (yet at least).

Joel> I guess what it keeps coming down to is this: Diplomacy uses a map of the
Joel> real world for a gameboard and draws flavor from it, but is NOT a
Joel> recreation of any historical period or events as they happened in the real
Joel> world.  Making it more "accurate" would sacrifice the diceless, "pure"
Joel> strategy aspect that makes Diplomacy such a popular, timeless
Joel> game.

Michael>    Is a game necessarily less pure, just because it's accurate? Is it
Michael>    really impossible to use an abstract ruleset to 'recreate' historical,
Michael>    (i.e. not ahistorical), situations?
Define "pure".
Personally I would say that purity is opposed to accuratness.  But of
course it's possible to have a pure and accurate game.
Michael> 
Michael>    Thanks to both previous posters, Joel and <someone at dipl-l>, for
Michael>    bringing up this discussion as it's a topic I've wanted to thrash
Michael>    about a bit for a long time.
Michael> 
Michael>    Michael.



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