HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rdtst+@pitt.edu (Richard D Thorne)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israeli Expulsion of 418 Palestinians
Date: 12 Jan 93 21:09:26 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

| You might be right about the Security Council's motives, but that
| doesn't mean its condemnation is wrong.  For me the most damning
| thing about Israel's attitude towards the Geneva Convention is the
| lengths it is prepared to go to "prove" it doesn't need to obey it.
| 
| >    Richard Thorne  rdt@med.pitt.edu
| 
| Brendan.
| 

     How about that for a real "no nothing" response.  Israel does not
   have to prove anything, nor is J. Stone in Israel's employ.  His opinion,
   as well as those of other noted legal scholars,  do lend credit to the
   Israeli opinion.  As to the other clauses in the League of Nations
   Mandate regarding minority rights, they are there precisely because the 
   League forsaw an Arab minority living within a Jewish State.  It also
   called that rights of Jews living in Arab states not be diminished.

        Richard Thorne rdt@med.pitt.edu
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israeli Expulsion of 418 Palestinians
Date: 10 Jan 1993 06:19:10 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
Distribution: world
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.23.70

In article 1583@blue.cis.pitt.edu, rdtst+@pitt.edu (Richard D Thorne) writes:

>Other jurists (Rostow and Schwebel) concur in this analysis.

>  It is important to note that the UN is not empowered to decide this issue
>and therefore UN resolutions have no legal standing on this issue.  
>Furthermore the advancement of the claim that the territory in question should
>revert to the status of unallocated territory of the League of Nations Mandate
>strengthens Israel's claim to these territories according to Rostow.  The 
>terms of the Mandate refer to this territory as a "Jewish national home" and

They do not.

>in article 6 calls for "close settlement by Jews on lands, including State
>lands and waste lands not required for public purposes".  

"while ensuring that the rights and position of other sections of the
population are not prejudiced".   Forgot that part?

>    I don't think that either legality nor morality motivate those who have
> condemned Israel for it's treatment of admitted members of a criminal 
> conspiracy.  No one denies the association of these people with Hamas.
> This is just another example of the Security Council trying to bully 
> Israel in order to gain favor with its Oil supply.

You might be right about the Security Council's motives, but that
doesn't mean its condemnation is wrong.  For me the most damning
thing about Israel's attitude towards the Geneva Convention is the
lengths it is prepared to go to "prove" it doesn't need to obey it.

>    Richard Thorne  rdt@med.pitt.edu

Brendan.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: What is this doing on page 15
Date: 7 Jan 1993 08:48:07 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, gwydion@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Mercenary Programmer) says:

>In article <1i8tuoINNcj8@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll) writes:
>>The Hamas leaders were guilty of many 
>>violent acts, and it was within Israel's right to deport them.
>
>
>Have you yet proven that the people that were deported were:
>
>	[a] Hamas leaders?
>	[b] The specific Hamas leaders who committed the
>            violent acts you mentioned above?

That was documented at the time.  If you have evidence that they weren't 
(beyond the 10 accidentally deported) then I would be happy to hear it, 
otherwise, I will give Israel's evidence the benefit of the doubt.

>Until you do so you are a supporter of collective punishment
>for Arabs.

A huuuge leap of logic.  Dontcha think.

Ilan U. Woll

"I'm no bigot, I hate everyone".

-- 
---  !      ^    !\  !
 !   !     /-\   ! \ !
___  !__  /   \  !  \!  
                        Avoid cliches like the plague" George Shaw
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:25006 soc.rights.human:4744
From: rdtst+@pitt.edu (Richard D Thorne)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.rights.human
Subject: Re: Israeli Expulsion of 418 Palestinians
Date: 8 Jan 93 20:38:14 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.mideast
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

The action of the Israeli government, removing the Hamas activists, is 
legal.  It conforms with Israeli law and was upheld by the High Court.  It 
does not violate international law, specifically the Geneva Convention,
since Israel's possession of the West Bank and Gaza is the result of
a war of self-defense, and no other state has a stronger claim to sovereignty
than does Israel.  


Any application of the Geneva Convention to the territories assumes that 
Israel is a belligerent occupier.  This is a false application the term.  In 
1948 with the rejection by the Arab parties of the partition Jordan illegally 
occupied the West Bank, but under the principle of ex iniuria non oritur ius 
she acquired no legal title there.  In 1967 when Israel responding to the 
initiation of hostilities by Jordan seized these territories it did so
legally in self-defense.  Since Israel's claim to the territory is "stronger"
than that of Jordan's (or any body else's for that matter) it can in the
opinion of many international jurists annex these territories
if she so wished.  As stated by Prof J. Stone:

	The initial point that arises under Article 49(6) of Geneva 
	Convention IV of 1949 is more specific.  Not only does 
	Jordan lack a legal title to the territories concerned, but 
	the Convention itself does not by its terms apply to these 
	territories.  For, under Article 2, that Convention applies 
	"to cases of .. occupation of the territory of a High 
	Contracting Party, " by another such Party.  Insofar as the 
	West Bank at present held by Israel does not belong to 
	any other State, the Convention would not seem to apply 
	to it at all.  This is a technical, though rather decisive, 
	legal point.

p 177-178  "Israel and Palestine" Julius Stone

Other jurists (Rostow and Schwebel) concur in this analysis.

  It is important to note that the UN is not empowered to decide this issue
and therefore UN resolutions have no legal standing on this issue.  
Furthermore the advancement of the claim that the territory in question should
revert to the status of unallocated territory of the League of Nations Mandate
strengthens Israel's claim to these territories according to Rostow.  The 
terms of the Mandate refer to this territory as a "Jewish national home" and
in article 6 calls for "close settlement by Jews on lands, including State
lands and waste lands not required for public purposes".  

    I don't think that either legality nor morality motivate those who have
 condemned Israel for it's treatment of admitted members of a criminal 
 conspiracy.  No one denies the association of these people with Hamas.
 This is just another example of the Security Council trying to bully 
 Israel in order to gain favor with its Oil supply.

    Richard Thorne  rdt@med.pitt.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Subject: Re: Mail Address for Yitzhak Rabin and the Knesset
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 15:03:57 GMT

In article <1993Jan5.034900.17715@eskimo.com> hnoble@eskimo.com (Henry Noble) writes:

# I'd like to let the Israeli leadership know I deplore
# the brutal deportations.  Does anyone know the mail 
# address I can use?

	/dev/null

	Now, when you get informed and figure out that these NON BRUTAL
deportations, when used effectovely and in the right numbers, will
result in less brutality, come back.
--
	There are three types of people in the world.  Those that are good
at math and those that are not.

makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:25062 soc.culture.greek:12132
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.greek
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Greek invasion in Cyprus 1974 cont...
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 93 15:35:48 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <C0LKEy.4sn@acsu.buffalo.edu> v999saum@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Varnavas A. Lambrou) writes:

>For hundreds of years Greek and Turkish Cypriots lived in social harmony and
>economic interdependence in the villages and towns of Cyprus.

Well, we stand in each other's long silence, inarticulate for 
different reasons. The problems in Cyprus have their origin in 
decades of oppression of the Turkish population by the Greek 
Cypriot officials and their violation of the co-founder status 
of the Turks set out in the constitution. The coup d'etat 
engineered by Greece in 1974 to execute a final solution 
to the Turkish problem was the savage blow that invoked 
Turkiye's intervention. Turkiye intervened reluctantly and 
only as a last resort after exhausting all other avenues 
consulting with Britain and Greece as the other two signatories 
to the treaty to protect the integrity of Cyprus. There simply 
was not any expansionist motivation in the Turkish action at 
all. This is in dramatic contrast to the Greek motivation which 
was openly expansionist, stated as 'Enosis,' union with Greece. 
Since the creation of independent Cyprus in 1960, the Turkish 
population, although smaller, legally had status as the co-founder
of the republic with the Greek population.

The Greek Cypriots, with the support of 'Enosis'-minded
Greeks in the mainland, have consistently ignored that
status and portrayed the Island as a Greek island with
a minority population of Turks. The Turks of Cyprus are
not a minority in a Greek Republic and they found the
only way they could show that was to assert their 
autonomy in a separate republic.

Turkiye is not satisfied with the status quo. She would
rather not be involved with the island. But, given the
dismal record of brutal Greek oppression of the Turkish
population in Cyprus, she simply cannot leave the fate
of the island's Turks in the hands of the Greeks until
the Turkish side is satisfied with whatever accord
the two communities finally reach to guarantee that
history will not repeat itself to rob Turkish Cypriots
of their rights, liberties and their very lives.

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.'    (Sahak Melkonian)


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: News from the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip.
Date: 7 Jan 93 09:51:55 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <1993Jan6.184351.11245@beaver.cs.washington.edu> aberman@cs.washington.edu (Andrew Berman) writes:
~In article <29915@castle.ed.ac.uk> jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson) writes:
~
~>~Or maybe ask the arabs to stop sending small children to the streets to throw
~>~stones.
~>~
~>
~>Assuming, for the sake of argument, that your supposition is correct, it
~>is strange that Israeli response to child abuse is to shoot the victims,
~>rather than punish the abusers.
~
~Uh, the Israeli response to child abuse is to arrest the abusers when
~evidence exists.
~
~The Israeli response to having stones thrown at them in a riot is to
~break up the riot.  That the stones thrown are a result of child abuse
~is secondary at this point.
~
~The Israeli soldier reponse to a clear threat (i.e., someone running at you)
~	1) Yell (in Arabic) that the offender should halt.
~	2) Yell again in Arabic.
~	3) Yell a third time.
~	4) Shoot in the air.
~	5) Shoot at the ground.
~	6) Shoot at the legs.
~	7) Shoot at the body.

So the little girl was killed after she'd been warned and shot in the legs?
This story gets more and more absurd!!

~I also heard no great outcry when a Montana teenager was sent to 30 years
~in prison for throwing stones at passing cars.   But I digress..

I think you'd have heard an outcry if the teenager had simply been gunned down
in the street. Can you say "Kent State"?






-- 
===Jeremy Henderson===jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk=          

This message cost the net hundreds if not thousands of dollars.
Bloody good value if you ask me.
From: marwang@bach.rutgers.edu (Marwan Gharaybeh)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Can anyone answer a real quick, simple question?
Date: 4 Jan 93 23:14:11 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll) writes:

>Terrorism is the act of killing non-combatants.  And, as I have proven before,
>the Palestinian civilians have been anything but non-combative.  Stabbings
>and stonings do not make you peaceful.

Forget about stabbing because these are scattered incidents and the Israelis
would never spare this golden chance to kill an Arab ... But saying "Stone
throwing" is a combatant action" is not really accurate.

Stone throwing is among the common weapons for civilian uprisings. The
Tear gas might be a "convenient" way to disperse the stone thrower but
certainly Ozi machine-guns should never be used. Firing the Ozi-machine
guns on 10 year olds principle-fighters does not make anyone a hero but
really a disgrace.

--Marwan
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jle@locus.com (John Elghani)
Subject: Re: Cat Steven's visit to Israel (& concert!)
Organization: Locus Computing Corp, Los Angeles
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 93 01:53:24 GMT

In article <1993Jan6.184012.19131@das.harvard.edu> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
>In article <4842@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:

>Nope, the hours are awful, the pay stinks, and you have to deal with
>some major wackos. ;)

Com-on Adam, doesn't it take a wacko to another?  Besides, with
your identity and beliefs, why does pay stink?   You know
you can move to the Holy Land (Occupied Palestine), and rob
some house from some Palestinian family while you maintain the
government's support and the upper hand.   I don't see why
don't you do that?  Then you can sell the house and don't have to 
work as hard.

>Adam

jle

Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24694 soc.culture.greek:12049
From: bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: What is this doing on page 15
Date: 7 Jan 93 07:37:23 GMT
Reply-To: bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson) says:

>In article <1i8tuoINNcj8@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll) writes:
>~
>~In a previous article, zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd M. Ben-Halim) says:
>~errs, and so far I'm not sold that Israel is right on this call.  I try to be
>~objective.  Apparently you do not.  The Hamas leaders were guilty of many 
>~violent acts, and it was within Israel's right to deport them.
>~ 
>
>You claim to be objective and in the next breath you demonstrate that you
>are nothing of the sort - has it not penetrated your skull that the deportees
>have been found guilty of no crime whatsoever? Your presumption of guilt
>exposes your prejudices.

As they were refugees in occupied territory still considered at war, a trial
was not needed.  Although I agree there should have been a trial (it might
have prevented the 10 mistakes of .deporting the wrong person).  There was
evidence showing the Hamas leaders planned the murder, and thus, they were
guilty.

In war, many are punished without trial, we did it in the Civil War, both
World Wars and to a lesser extent, Vietnam.  It's an unfortunate part of war, 
but rights do get trampled on.
-- 
---  !      ^    !\  !
 !   !     /-\   ! \ !
___  !__  /   \  !  \!  
                        Avoid cliches like the plague" George Shaw
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: wc4209@writer.yorku.ca (Irene Berkovich)
Subject: Re: Israeli Nazism?  (Arabs killing Arabs)
Organization: Computer Assisted Writing Centre, York University, Toronto, Canada
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 01:42:48 GMT

In article <C0EAKH.sI@techbook.com> gummitch@techbook.com (Jeff Frane) writes:
>dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
>
>
>>As to the major characteristic of Nazi terror, mass murder of
>>civilians with poison gas, it was practiced in the mideast only
>>by Arabs against other Arabs (Iraq and Egypt).
>
>One small quibble, Danny: the Iraqis were using poison gas on Kurds, and
>it is my understanding (correct me, please, if I'm wrong) that Kurds are
>not Arabs.  This is not, obviously, intended to excuse such an outrage
>but I find the frequent accusation that Arabs perform atrocities on
>other Arabs to have unfortunate overtones of ethnocentricity.
>
>For my own interest, I'd like to know what you mean about the reference
>to Egypt.  Iraqi use of gas is pretty well established and familiar, due
>to news reports, but I hadn't heard anything about the Egyptians.
>
>--Jeff Frane
>
      Syria's Hafez Assad ordered the massacre of approximately 10,000
to 20,000 fellow Arabs in the city of Hama in around 1980.  I believe
this town was an active Moslem Brotherhood area.  They would be quite
similar in philosophy to the Hamas members that Israel recently
expelled (note expelled, not butchered like in Syria).


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Deportation of Palestinians
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 93 23:56:04 GMT

In article <4847@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:

>What do we have do go on, Jake, by believing that Rabin actually
>IS a peacemaker?
>
>Let's see:
>
>	Did he recognize Palestinian rights and sovereignty?

Over Arab Palestine (Jordan)    - sure.
Over Jewish Palestine (Israel)  - why should he?

>	Is he willing to withdraw from the Occupied Territories?

He's already gone on record as saying he would.

>	Does he wish to improve the living conditions of Palestinians in
>	the Territories?

He already has.  Does the *PLO* wish to improve the living conditions
of Palestinians in the Territories? 

>	Does he call for a reduction of brutality [murder, torture, etc.]
>	by Israeli soldiers in the Territories?

He already has.

>	Does he call for a freeze in settlement building?

He already has.

>	What exactly is he willing to GIVE to promote peace, security,
>	and stability to Palestinians?

What else do you want?  And when will you offer ANYTHING in return?
How about a cessation of hostilities in the Intifada?  Both Arafat and
Ashrawi, his spokeswoman, have called for ESCALATION of violence in
the Intifada.  When will you offer something - anything - instead of
just demanding more and more?

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com              10 years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed President.
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: No, This is the Quote of the year
Date: 9 Jan 93 16:29:05 GMT
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University

In article <1ikv6bINNgpq@life.ai.mit.edu> gwydion@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Basalat Ali Raja) writes:
>In article <8826.7349@stratus.SWDC.Stratus.COM> bobc@bandit.swdc.stratus.com (Bob Christ) writes:

>>He's quite correct.  Open your dictionary... about the middle of the `a'
>>section.  Now find "anti-", and look down the list and you'll find
>>"anti-Semite".

>While we're doing the dictionary thing, could you look
>up "recursion" for me as well?  Thanks.  It's under "R".

Sure.  It says "See recursion."  :)

Anything else?

Adam



Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all.  How true that is.
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:25053 talk.politics.soviet:10328 soc.culture.greek:12125 soc.culture.europe:11097
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: "George William Herbert" goes to Washington D.C.
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 93 13:24:06 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <8551@charon.cwi.nl> dik@cwi.nl (Dik T. Winter) writes:

 >> Actually Mutlu had quite an amusing turn of phrase, something seriously 
 >> lacking in the Serdar Argic postings.

>Right.  Can we get Hasan B. back?

You have a right to grieve over what you didn't get that you needed or
what you got that you didn't need or want.


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.'    (Sahak Melkonian)


Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:25103 soc.culture.turkish:14049
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.turkish
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: "George William Herbert" goes to Washington D.C.
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 93 19:19:03 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <8579@charon.cwi.nl> dik@cwi.nl (Dik T. Winter) writes:

> > I think I should give you two dollars.

>Yes, please in unmarked two dollar bills.

Look for me at the rodeo in Calgary in the year 2004. You'll recognize
me by the bicycle bearing the sign "'winter' beach or bust".


Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.'    (Sahak Melkonian)


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Subject: Re: News from the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip.
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 13:21:12 GMT

In article <29915@castle.ed.ac.uk> jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson) writes:

# In article <1993Jan5.165857.3113@dazixco.ingr.com> naftaly@dazixco.ingr.com writes:

# ~In article <Jan.4.18.28.39.1993.23427@bach.rutgers.edu>, marwang@bach.rutgers.edu (Marwan Gharaybeh) writes:

# ~>astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:

# ~>>The death of a child is always a tragic event. It's truly shameful

# ~>So ask the Israeli blood thirsty government to stop using machine guns
# ~>against 9 year old civilians.

# ~Or maybe ask the arabs to stop sending small children to the streets to throw
# ~stones.

# Assuming, for the sake of argument, that your supposition is correct, it
# is strange that Israeli response to child abuse is to shoot the victims,
# rather than punish the abusers.
 
	I agree that the parents should be put up on child abuse charges
and the children placed in some sort of foster care.  However, when
someone is threatening you their age is irrelevent.  It is the sick
attempt to make age relevent for publicity purposes that is one of the
most disgusting aspects of this.
--
	There are three types of people in the world.  Those that are good
at math and those that are not.

makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu