From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Subject: Utopia (was Re: mandatory service)
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 12:20:24 GMT


In article <ROBERTL.92Aug11210033@luciano.Stanford.EDU>
robertl@luciano.Stanford.EDU (Robert Lodenkamper) writes:

>In article <1992Aug12.033954.28682@reed.edu>
>nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar) writes:

>>In article <1358@dosbears> drp@dosbears.uucp writes:

>>>jojo writes:

>>>>I think everyone should serve in the army for a year
>>>>unless they are a concientious objector in which case they
>>>>are forced to fill potholes in Boston roads for a few
>>>>months.

>>>Sounds OK to me.

>>there's a word for this system.  It's called slavery.

>Bzzt.  Error.  It is a form of mandatory indentured
>servitude, not slavery.  Slavery is permanent, and it is
>total servitude, rather than partial.  I will freely admit
>that mandatory indentured servitude is a fairly noxious
>idea, but it is not slavery.

Correct on all counts, I think.

>I think that instead of requiring public service, it could
>be rewarded.

I think it should be both.  Under my scheme, it
automatically would be.

>That is, those who help out by doing some public service are
>thereby entitled to significantly larger transfer payments
>from the state if and when needed.

I think people should get from the state only what they
need, and that only if need implies having no other means of
getting it.  I don't think this transfer should depend on
anything other than being a citizen.

>Transfer payments to people able to do public service who
>have choosen not to would be reduced or eliminated.

I think it should go about like this:  

You get 20 years of free education (this makes you about
25).  You then do about 5 years of public service, which
includes such things as the present Vista and Peace Corps
ideas, rebuilding and maintaining infrastrucure, reclaiming
and cleaning up the land, recycling as necessary, and a host
of other useful projects.

The main thrust of the service is (a) to serve others, and
(b) to learn how the world works (it being a given that the
formal education taught you how to read and how to think and
gave you useful historical and cultural background).

*Every* person who was physically/mentally able would do
this (so it's not indentured service after all, it's only a
universal societal norm).  Now you're 30.

At this point you choose a career (not earlier).  Careers
might include any or all of (voluntary) professional
military work, parenting, or anything else.  If you need
more training (normally you would), you work for to pay for
it out of your own pocket.  Now you're 35 and ready to live
a decent life.

Since everyone would have basic housing, food, physical
security, and health care heavily subsidized by the state,
you will expect to pay very high taxes on your income from
age 35 to age 70.

When you're 60, if you want, you can retire, but in return
for state support of your basic needs (only if needed), you
would be expected to return to public service (including
government) until age 70, with the option of remaining as
long as you like if you're able (well enough, etc.).

Utopia is so simple, if you work at it!  :-) It's all a
matter of giving and getting; our trouble is we want to do
the getting without doing the giving.  Sorry, can't work
that way, gotta give, and more than most people think.

-- 
Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin
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