HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: iikkap@mits.mdata.fi (Iikka Paavolainen)
Subject: Re: THE MIND OF THE BIBLE BELIEVER
Organization: Microdata Oy, Helsinki, Finland
Distribution: world,public
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 13:26:48 GMT

In article <C001q0.2n8.1@cs.cmu.edu> drake+@cs.cmu.edu (Drake) writes:
>I think it's rather instructive that many who HAVE read the Bible are
>no longer Christian because of it.

Well, *that* wouldn't amaze at all... 8)

>
>-- 
>Love and Laughter,             | NOTE: Private mail must go explicitly
>Xeper and Remanifest,          | to drake@seismo.soar.cs.cmu.edu
>                       DRAKE   | or it'll bounce back to you...


--
 __/|_  ,  ,--------------------------------------------------------------,
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   `    `  `--------------------------------------------------------------'
From: bl275@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dan Diaz)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: searcher
Date: 23 Dec 1992 05:34:17 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bl275@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dan Diaz)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, BLD110@psuvm.psu.edu () says:
>
>I would put forth a fourth alternative - our religious forefathers just
>didn't get it and their idea of God which we have been indoctrinated with
>has made it extremely difficult to perceive beyond rejecting what is
>absolutely unacceptable to us.  Not only do we hold God up to show how
>His presence is detectable physically - but we hold Him up to the old
>paradigm.  Talk about shoting ourselves in the foot.

Why is this shooting ourselves in the foot or doing any other kind of harm
to ourselves?  If God created us and know what criteria are necessary for
belief on our part then he will either contact you or he wont.  Otherwise
dont worry.  As a born again xian for 14 years, I worried about whether my
interpretations of the Bible or whathever were pleasing to God.  What a
waste!  My bet is that you wont be getting a fax from God anytime in the
future.  If our religious forefathers screwed someting up in the
translation it doesnt seem to me impossible for an omnipotent being to fix it.

I could not tell you what sort of evidence I would require in order to
believe in god, a it would beg the question to say that I knew what was
required.  If someone who matches my conception of what god might be shows
up, how could I possible know that this was the real McCoy and not some
powerful extraterrestrial.  If anyone knows the answer it would be god
herself.  Since she is not talking, I dont worry; neither should you. :)
-- 
Dizzy Dan         ddiaz@cwru.bitnet      bl275@cleveland.freenet.edu
Department of Molecular Genetics - Albert Einstein College of Medicine
"My opinions are my own, and they should be yours as well"
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: mam@jcnpc.cmhnet.org (Mike A. McAngus)
Subject: Re: Violence in the bible?
Organization: Homebrew Virtual Reality Labs
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1993 21:52:53 GMT

Joe Beiter (joeb@arden.linet.org) wrote:
: In article <1992Dec31.162350.7234@jcnpc.cmhnet.org> mam@jcnpc.cmhnet.org (Mik
e A. McAngus) writes:
: >Joe Beiter (joeb@arden.linet.org) wrote:
: >: Me personally?  Hell no I think its damm harsh.  What sane human being cou
ld
: >: stand up and say "I think you should die because you thought of 'doing' Mr
s.
: >: Henderson"? (knowing full well I thought of it myself).
: >               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: >
: >So, if I never thought of "doing" Mrs. Henderson (I'm assuming we are talkin
g
: >about sex with a married woman who is not your wife) then I am justified in
: >executing the man who did "do" Mrs. Henderson (assuming he is not Mr.
: >Henderson)?
: >
: >As you point out, no sane person could condone such "justice".
:
: naw my point was adultery=death, thinking of it=adultery, therfore thinking
: of it=death.  I was pointing out that our sense of justice falls far short
: of what the Bible says God's is.

A neat sidestep of the implicit question.  Given my above scenario, am I 
justified in executing the man who commitied adultery with Mrs. Henderson?  
Why or why not.

:
: >: God (of The Bible) is not like us.  You're talking a different set of scal
es
: >: here.
: >
: >If the "justice" is immoral by our limited standards, how can it be moral by
 a
: >"different set of scales"?  From human experience, justice tends to become m
ore
: >humane as peoples philosophical basis expands.
:
: relativity.

Duh!  I must be really stupid, could you expand your one word reply.

:
: >I'm "convinced Hes (sic) not there" because he has never given me any eviden
ce
: >that he is there.  Nor has any other diety given me such evidence.
:
: That doesn't help me in particular but I respect your 'non-observance'.
-- 
Mike McAngus                    |You are a fluke of the Universe.  You have no 
mam@jcnpc.cmhnet.org            |right to be here, and whether you can hear it
The Truth is still the Truth    |or not the Universe is laughing behind your 
Even if you choose to ignore it.|back.  -- National Lampoon, Deteriorata
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: harry@timesink.chi.il.us (Harold Platypus)
Subject: Re: God as dark matter
Organization: Big Bulging Buffalo Bladders -R- Us
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 06:31:20 GMT

In article <1992Dec20.231046.24874@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> jcopelan@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (The One and Only) writes:
>I heard a new one this weekend in a discussion about religion. The claim was 
>made that God is actually the unaccounted for mass of the universe known as 
>"dark matter."
>
The most convincing argument on the subject I've heard is that the "dark
matter" is inside the event horizon of black hole or kugelblitz (a black
hole whose gravity well is so deep that even X-rays cannot escape).

>When I asked why call it God, the response was "Why not?" End of discussion.
>
You let this slide? I would've argued that God has no need of mass to exist
as pure energy. Of course, energy can be converted to mass and vice versa,
so if God used part of Himself to create the universe, then the missing
mass could indeed be what is left of Him.

>What other strange arguments have people encountered in their dealings with
>religionists?
>
>Jim Copeland

Either see above paragraph -or- black holes are the pores in God's skin.
- Harry
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: vanweer@ecf.toronto.edu (VANWEERDENBURG NICHOLAS JOHN)
Subject: Re: Violence in the bible?
Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 21:02:20 GMT

In article <1992Dec29.200705.22493@arden.linet.org> joeb@arden.linet.org (Joe Beiter) writes:
>In article <schnitzi.725571303@eola.cs.ucf.edu> schnitzi@cs.ucf.edu (Mark Schnitzius) writes:
>>Interesting!  So, in summary, the Bible calls for the death penalty 
>>in these cases:
>>
>>o  Murder
>>o  Witchcraft
>
>etc...
>
>>
>>Comments, Xians?
>
>This applied to the jews for the jews to carry out.  The jews were to be 
>submissive to the law.  A death sentance is not 'murder' but justice.
>
>It is made clear from book one that the wages for sin is death.
>
>
>-- 
>|-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|
>|Joe.Beiter@arden.linet.org               The Long Island Network Project   |
>|The Courts of Chaos Semi-Public Access   Long Island New York: USA         |
>|-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|

Not to be rude, but what the hell are you talking about?  Is Iran's death
sentence on Salman Rushdie, if carried out, not murder, but justice?  And
are all Jews going to hell for not running around 'justicizing' all the 
people pointed out in their 'good' book as deserving of 'justice'?  If you
believe this, then you scare the shit out of me and make a good case for
banning organized religion.  I mean, wow, where did you come from?
If you don't believe what you wrote and are just stating the facts for our
benefit, just read 'you people who believe this statement' in place of 'you'.

-Nick
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: iikkap@mits.mdata.fi (Iikka Paavolainen)
Subject: Re: iq<->religion: connection?
Organization: Microdata Oy, Helsinki, Finland
Distribution: world,public
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 12:20:43 GMT

In article <1992Dec29.195246.22383@arden.linet.org> joeb@arden.linet.org (Joe Beiter) writes:
>
>So what are you trying to say?  That there was no IQ<-->Athesim study actually
>and that you just said this to see what kind of responses you'd get?

Yes, I never had any study, and never said so (MY study I mean, I had a study
of some psychologist, but the topic wasn't the same, but close). And yes,
I wanted to see what people had to say on this subject and how strongly they
would oppose it also.

>
>
>-- 
>|-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|
>|Joe.Beiter@arden.linet.org               The Long Island Network Project   |
>|The Courts of Chaos Semi-Public Access   Long Island New York: USA         |
>|-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-|


--
 __/|_  ,  ,--------------------------------------------------------------,
/o    \/:--| Iikka Paavolainen / iikkap@mits.mdata.fi, in Espoo, Finland  |
\__~__/\:--| "I won't have a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent."    |
   `    `  `--------------------------------------------------------------'
From: livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: The Bible As A Rorschach
Date: 2 Jan 1993 02:48:17 GMT
Organization: sgi
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: solntze.wpd.sgi.com

In article <1993Jan01.192802.2370@jcnpc.cmhnet.org>, mam@jcnpc.cmhnet.org (Mike A. McAngus) writes:
|> Jon Livesey (livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com) wrote:
|> : In article <1992Dec31.020043.25959@arden.linet.org>, joeb@arden.linet.org (Jo
|> e Beiter) writes:
|> : >
|> : > Hitler had no right to do what he did.  Hitler is not God.
|> :
|> : I'd hate to misunderstand you here.   Is Hitler not
|> : being God the *reason* why he had no right to do what
|> : he did?
|> :
|> : Would God have the right to do what Hitler did?
|> :
|> : jon.
|> 
|> Of course god would have the right to do what Hitler did, because god is 
|> omnijust and omnibenevolent and therefore if god did it it would be right.

Of course!    It's all so simple when you look at it the right
way, isn't it?

So now I'm wondering about people who represent God, or who are
inspired by him.   What do they get the right to do, I wonder.

jon.
From: Steve.Hayes@p0.f20.n7101.z5.fidonet.org (Steve Hayes)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: is it necessary to hate?
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 18:33:00 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 5:7101/20.0 - Unisa Editorial, Pretoria

During a discussion about Re: is it necessary to hate? on 12-22-92  00:11 
 Kent Sandvik  said to All

 KS> Steve.Hayes@f20.n7101.z5.fidonet.org (Steve Hayes) wrote:
 > I have come across tolerant and intolerant Christians, and tolerant and 
 > intolerant atheists. Not that I think tolerance arises from a wishy-washy 
 > "it doesn't matter what you believe" kind of thing. But as a Christian 
 KS> 
 KS> I would otherwise agree with the statements. Unfortunately
 KS> Christianity has had its dark ages when the evangelism effort of the
 KS> good message had produced very aggressive and cruel actions. In other
 KS> words Christianity as any other mass movement systems relies on the
 KS> internal inertia, and  sometimes this social force could mutate into
 KS> something that the  original idea opposed.

True indeed. But atheism has also had its dark ages. Just consider the last 70 years or so in the USSR, where some 20 million people perished because they failed to understand the only way to universal happiness. 

Of course you could say that that wasn't your brand of atheism, but I could equally well say that the other wasn't my brand of Christianity. 

The most we can say is that some people feel that it is necessary to hate, and whether they are Christians or atheists seems to make very little difference.

Well, not quite. I don't think there's much difference in the quality of the hate or its effects, but it does make the Christians more hypocritical, because what they believe should make them see hate as wrong, whereas there is no _necessary_ connection between atheism and thinking that hatred is a good or a bad thing.

 
... Steve Hayes, Editorial Dept, University of South Africa, Pretoria

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From: torkel@sics.se (Torkel Franzen)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Genital-grabbing
Date: 2 Jan 93 02:00:39 GMT
Organization: Swedish Institute of Computer Science, Kista

In article <1i2qqqINNhsr@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bb099@cleveland.Freenet.Edu
 (Adam Trent Phillips) writes:

   >I think Abraham had ordered
   >a servant to make a promise and told mis servant to put his hands between
   >his legs while making the promise...sounds rather kinky to me :

  Not Abraham's legs, the servant's own legs. From "In a word" by Ernst &
Thurber:


            TESTIFY

            Latin testis, witness, also testicle; and facio, to make.
            Dating back to Biblical times, a witness swore to the
            truth, or testified, by placing his hand on the source of
            life and manhood, the testes. The King James version, in a
            polite euphemism, says that an oath is taken by placing
            the hand upon the thigh. In law, a testament is a written
            and witnessed will; the Old and New Testaments referred to
            the witnessed covenant between God and man. Detest is from
            de, down or away, plus witness.
From: nyeda@cnsvax.uwec.edu (David Nye)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: A nation chosen by GOD?
Date: 1 Jan 93 00:03:48 -0600
Organization: University of Wisconsin Eau Claire

[reply to pierce@lanai.cs.ucla.edu]
 
>>What was it in the forwarded article that you thought would be of
>>interest to us in alt.atheist?
 
>I thought you might like to respond to various of the claims that were
>made, such as the USA being "chosen by GOD", about religion being
>opposed to war, etc. My apologies for thinking you might care.
 
Woops.  The tone of my reply didn't come out quite right.  Those flames
erupted because some thought you espoused the ideas you posted.  I
suspected you might feel just the opposite and was inviting you to say
so.

David Nye
nyeda@cnsvax.uwec.edu
From: iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Ivan A Derzhanski)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: is it necessary to hate?
Date: 24 Dec 92 21:57:56 GMT
Organization: Centre for Cognitive Science, Edinburgh, UK

Same old story.  Some people never learn.  Oh well.

In article <3401.2B38AE26@catpe.alt.za> Steve.Hayes@p0.f20.n7101.z5.fidonet.org (Steve Hayes) writes:
> Kent Sandvik  said to All
> KS> Christianity has had its dark ages when the evangelism effort of the
> KS> good message had produced very aggressive and cruel actions. [...]
>
>True indeed. But atheism has also had its dark ages. Just consider the
>last 70 years or so in the USSR, where some 20 million people perished
>because they failed to understand the only way to universal happiness.

No.  They perished because they recognised what was being sold as the
way to universal happiness as a way to almost universal misery.  There
were but a few who understood some things about universal happiness, too.
They were eliminated first, as being the most dangerous.

Now to the point.  What do those 20 million have to do with atheism?
After all, a considerable part of them were atheists themselves.  Of
those who weren't, I doubt that any perished for that very reason.

>Of course you could say that that wasn't your brand of atheism, but I
>could equally well say that the other wasn't my brand of Christianity.

There is only one brand of atheism.  There may be degrees of unbelief in
gods (see the strong/weak atheism dichotomy), but atheism never
entails any norms of behaviour.  High time for you theists to get this.

Atheism says nothing about what actions you may take towards others.
Atheists have to look elsewhere for this kind of directions.

>The most we can say is that some people feel that it is necessary to
>hate, and whether they are Christians or atheists seems to make very
>little difference.

Yes, but, unlike atheists, all Christians are meant to share a number
of beliefs about the world.  If it can be shown that Christianity in
itself actually leads people to believing that violence in certain
circumstances is advisable or even justifiable, then it will make a
huge difference.

-- 
 `D'ye mind tellin me whit the two o ye are gaun oan aboot?' (The Glasgow
Ivan A Derzhanski  (iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk; iad@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu)    Gospel)
* Centre for Cognitive Science,  2 Buccleuch Place,  Edinburgh EH8 9LW,  UK
* Cowan House, Pollock Halls, 18 Holyrood Park Road, Edinburgh EH16 5BD, UK
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: mam@jcnpc.cmhnet.org (Mike A. McAngus)
Subject: Re: Is Santa Claus God?
Organization: Homebrew Virtual Reality Labs
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 16:03:20 GMT

El-Habbash Ahmed (ahmed@cs.tcd.ie) wrote:
: npm@dale.cts.com (Nancy Milligan) writes:
:
: >There was an article in "Free Inquiry" about a woman who strongly
: >believed it was wrong to tell your children about Santa Claus.
: >First of all, you're lying to them and what is more devastating
: >to a child than to find that their own parents are liars.  Secondly,
: >it gives precedence to believing in patently impossible things.
:
: This is absolutely right
:
: >Maybe it paves the way to believing in other impossible things
: >later in life -- like God, fer instance.
:
: Isn't this a lie to say that God is impossible thing ?

No (see below)

: All these things within ourselves and around us do not tell that there
: is a possibility of a creator !!!???
:

Anything that is not physically impossible is, IMNSHO, possible; even logically
inconsistent ideas like an Omnicient, Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniloving god
who is vengeful "down to the third and fourth generation", provides for eternal
torment, commands genocide and never manifests to those of us who need
empirical evidence (I think this is what the Catholics mean by "the mystery of 
faith).

I do ascribe a vanishingly small probability to the existence of such a being, 
but hey, Schizophrenia is not impossible.

Obviously, Nancy is not as open minded as I am.  She expects logical 
consistency in the ideas she accepts.  Difference is the spice of life.

:
-- 
Mike McAngus 			 | As if I needed Another time consuming hobby.
(mam@jcnpc.cmhnet.org)		 | 
The Truth is still the Truth	 | This Post exploits illiterates.
Even if you choose to ignore it. | 
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: mam@jcnpc.cmhnet.org (Mike A. McAngus)
Subject: Re: Strong vs. Weak atheism
Organization: Homebrew Virtual Reality Labs
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 10:51:37 GMT

mathew (mathew@mantis.co.uk) wrote:
: merlyn@digibd.digibd.com (Merlyn LeRoy) writes:
: > To add more fuel to the fire, in the book "The Day America Told the Truth",
: > (a collection of surveys), in the religion section, there are these figures
:
: >
: >                             Percentage who agree
: > Statement                  Protestants Catholics Jews
: > Believe in God                 97         98      87
: > If believe:
: >  Very sure of God's existence  73         65      27
: > ...
: > Not at all religious            7          6      30
:
: Shouldn't "Believe in God" and "Not at all religious" add up to less
: than 100%?

Not necessarily, my wife believes in a god but is not in any way religious.  If
the religion groupings are according to the faith that one was raised in, then 
Mary would be Catholic/Believe in God/Not at all religious.
-- 
Mike McAngus (mam@jcnpc.cmhnet.org)| Let the raucous sleigh bells ringle   | Tom
The Truth is still the Truth	   | Hail our dear old fried Chris Kringle |Lehrer
Even if you choose to ignore it.   | Driving his reindeer across the sky
I wasn't sure if anyone would join | Don't stand underneath when they fly by.
From: Ian.Douglas@f119.n7102.z5.fidonet.org (Ian Douglas)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Just how much smarter are atheists?
Date: 21 Dec 92 20:25:03 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 5:7102/119 - Zero 2 Infinity, CT

Hi All!

On 19 Dec 92, nelson peter j wrote to All:

 npj>  I remember reading somewhere that Koko did NOT communicate complex
 npj>  thoughts, but rather mimicked and copied her human trainer(s).
 npj>  Her language was very, very crude, and did not show abstract thought.
 npj>  As I remember it, the whole "experiment" was blown way out of proportion
 npj>  by animal-rights type people. Anybody have a reference?

I also remember reading something along those lines, but was loath to mention it as it was only a memory.. :-)

Cheers, Ian


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Newsgroups: alt.atheism
From: darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice)
Subject: Re: Monitored by islam (repost)
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 04:20:22 GMT

In <su8LVB17w165w@mantis.co.uk> mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk> writes:

>darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice) writes:
>> 2. The "monitoring" organized in soc.religion.islam is primarily for
>> countering misinformation about Islam that floats about the net in
>> various newsgroups (including this one).  Many non-Muslims are very
>> poorly informed about Islam.  The shocking thing is, they *think* that
>> they know a lot about Islam.  They don't even realize how misinformed
>> they are.

>This is especially ironic given that in article
><1992Dec9.080120.28144@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au>, the very same
>darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Fred Rice) writes:
>>
>> To be an atheist you require a positive _belief_ that God *does not*
>> exist.

>Well, Fred, looks like Mr Pot is saying things about Mr Kettle.

My misunderstanding has been corrected.  I was talking about strong
atheism, as I have stated in another posting on this thread.  (Ho hum.) 

>> This is one attempt at reducing unjustified anti-Muslim prejudice in the
>> community.

>If you want to reduce anti-Muslim prejudice, why not stop the public
>book-burnings and calls for Rushdie's death?  

Many Muslims do disagree with the calls for Rushdie's death.  Muslim
leaders with this viewpoint have made their viewpoint public.  The
popular newspapers in the west have, however, considered these opinions
to not be "newsworthy" enough to print.  So blame the press for your
ignorance of the situation, not Muslims.

>Compensate the woman whose shop
>was burnt down by Muslims because they claimed some shoes she sold had
>Allah's name written in the pattern on the heel.  Prevent crimes like the
>case in the Midlands where a Muslim father killed his daughter by strangling
>her rather than let her date an unbeliever, and claimed that he had shown
>mercy by sending her to meet Allah.  Compensate the car tyre company who
>faced death threats and had to withdraw their tyres and destroy them because
>Muslims claimed the tread pattern looked like the word "Allah".

I do not know the details of any of these cases, or even if some of them
exist.  So I do not have the authority to comment here.  If you would
direct me to any articles in newspapers/magazines regarding these
incidents, I would be happy to read them and comment on them for you as
best as I could.

 Fred Rice
 darice@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au