From: greg@pomona.claremont.edu (Tigger)
Subject: Re: Could you guys give a girl some advice...
Organization: Pomona College
Date: 11 Oct 92 20:59:01 PDT

In article <1992Oct11.223628.5540@nwnexus.WA.COM>, enigma@halcyon.com (Matt Luders) writes:
> Crystal (crystal@glia.biostr.washington.edu) writes:
> 
>>Ahh...but if he ever changes his mind, at least he *knows* how you feel, and
>>may be more likely to take a chance on asking you out if he doesn't think he'll
>>be rejected.  Mind reading never works...
> 
> If he ever changes his mind (i.e. he now wants to take her out), then he
> should simply ask her out.  Does any woman really want a man who's so afraid of
> rejection that he can't muster the courage to ask her out?  

There are times when I have been very hesitant to ask out a woman who is a
friend.  Not just because I am shy in that situation (which is part of it),
but also in large part because I don't want to destroy the friendship.  It
never has in hindsight, but at the time it sure worried me.  If I had known
that she thought of me as maybe more than a friend, even at some time in
the past, the situation would have been easier to deal with.

> Actually, in my
> experience, a woman will always send definite signals if she's willing to go
> out with you, or for that matter, if she's not.  Does she smile when she sees
> you?  Does she compliment you?  Does she laugh when she's with you?  Does she
> flirt with you?  Does she refrain from mentioning a boyfriend?  There are lots
> of ways to send a very clear message without blurting it out.

Absolutely none of those things are a clear positive, although some of them
are fairly clear negatives.  If she obviously doesn't enjoy your company,
or makes frequent glowing references to a boyfriend, it would clearly be
a waste of time for you to ask her out.  But the opposite is not true. I
enjoy the company of my friends of both genders, and when I am happy and
having a good time I exhibit many of the behaviors listed.  That doesn't
mean that I want to go out with all of my friends.  And I have found that
to be true of most of them, also.

Yes, there are ways to send a message without coming right out and saying
it, but being as subtle as these examples is not necessarily going to do
the trick.

>>>The thing to do in this situation is try to find out *why* he doesn't
>>>want to date you, and if you are willing and able to do anything about it.
>>
>>HOLD IT!!!!  Adjusting yourself to fit another's ideas is NOT good advice!
>>Be yourself at all times!  If you wish to change something about yourself
>>based on what this fellow may say, then MAKE THE CHANGE FOR YOURSELF! When
>>one changes to fit another's mold, you give up a vital piece of your own
>>identity.
> 
> I couldn't agree with you more, Crystal.  That's why I said *willing* and able.
> Any change she makes should be one that she wants to make *anyway*, regardless
> of anyone else's opinion.

Isn't this just a little strong?  I agree that you should not change things
for another person that you wouldn't change for yourself.  I can tell you
from firsthand experience that nothing good comes of it.  But you don't have
to go to the other extreme, either.  There is a gray area in between of
things that you probably wouldn't bother to change for yourself, but that
you wouldn't mind changing for someone else.  For example, I tend to drop
my dirty clothes in a heap on the floor when I get undressed at the end
of the day, and then put them in the laundry basket the next morning.  If
that bothered someone, I would be perfectly willing to alter my behavior
and put them in the basket right when I get undressed.  Is there really
anything wrong with that?

--
|  Greg Orman                         greg@pomona.claremont.edu  |
|     A man's best friends:  a Harley, a Beretta and a Gund.     |
Newsgroups: alt.personals