HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: srini@ireq-num.hydro.qc.ca
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil,alt.culture.karnataka
Subject: Proto-Kannada-Tamil
Date: 27 Aug 92 20:58:24 GMT
Reply-To: srini@ireq-num.hydro.qc.ca (K.Srinivasan)
Organization: IREQ, Hydro-Quebec, QC, Canada
Originator: srini@acr

Cross posted in soc.culture.tamil and alt.culture.karnataka.
Please cross-post follow ups, in one shot to save bandwidth.

>In page 50 of a certain Kannada brochure it says, "Contrary to the popular
>belief, these linguistic authorities, seem to show that Tamil is an
>offshoot of Kannada".

This is welcome change from many earlier views, which used to insist,
there is no relation what so ever between the two.
Encyclopedia Brittanica however, calls this common section as
Proto-Tamil-Kannada, belonging to both.

Kannada literature starts at about 850 AD (Encyclopedia Brittanica 1985,
Macropedia, Languages of the World, page 717). The Kannada of that time
differs from the modern Kannada in many ways, including a higher Dravidian
word content:

Modern Kannada              Old-Kannada
ha               pa       in native words. ex.hallu, haalu, halli, haLLi etc.
(some)La         zha      ex. ELu -Ezhu, avaLu-avaLu
(ending)a        ending(am)  ex. Kannada - kannadam
(ending)a        ending(ai)  ex. illa - illai
One refers to this language as 'hale kannada' or rather 'pazhe kannadam'
as it would have been called in hale Kannada. (History of South India,
Nilakanta Sastry, Oxford University Press).

There however is an enormous amount of literature earlier to 850AD as well.
The language of this literature is as different from Old Kannada as it is from
Tamil, yet it is attributed popularly, exclusively to Tamil!. Actually, the
literature from pre-historic times to 850 AD, should belong to this common
Tamil-Kannada heritage. It is ironic, that not many in Karnataka make an
effort to publicize this common heritage, but rather are busy preventing the
unweiling of the statue of a Saint of 100 BC. who compiled and published the
knowledge of this common culture of that time, in 1330 beautiful verses.

Which language is an offshoot of which, or which language is older than
which are questions which become irrelavant in such a context.

K. Srinivasan srini@ireq-num.hydro.qc.ca
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
From: uds@wsu-eng.eng.wayne.edu (Seetamraju Udaybhaskar)
Subject: Re: Tirupati, Madras etc..
Reply-To: uds@wsu-eng.eng.wayne.edu (Seetamraju Udaybhaskar)
Organization: Wayne State University, Detroit
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 21:33:59 GMT

In article <67011@hydra.gatech.EDU> gt4084c@prism.gatech.EDU (SRINIVASAN,K) writes:
>In article <41982@ogicse.ogi.edu> partha@mse.cse.ogi.edu (R. Parthasarathy) writes:
>>temple and that the Vaishnavaites, during one of the emperors' time
>>(I think a Vijayanagar emperor), took over the temple and converted
>>it to a Vishnu temple. The points he put forward sound interesting
>
>There are two examples of such "god conversions" in the Coimbatore area.
>The Anuvaavi Subramaniaswami Koil has a Hanuman statue and the Murugan
>also has a male and a female statues with him -- suggesting Lakshmanan
>and Sita but advertised as Idumban and Valli.

Murugan and female companians.  Do I see a contradiction.
(Or am I confusing between ayyappa and murugan, who may be
different gods)...

>SRINIVASAN,K


Seetamraju Udaya Bhaskar Sarma
(email : seetam @ ece7 . eng . wayne . edu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
From: akn8257@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Subject: Re: A threat from ...
Reply-To: akn8257@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 18:57:05 GMT

In article <2A99985A.4882@orion.oac.uci.edu>, sundar@indigo1.hsis.uci.edu (M. Sundaramoorthy) writes:
>	
>	Gandhism might have worked with British government, but not with
>	Indian and Sri Lankan governements. Sri Lankan Tamils have proved
>	this.
>
>	Remember, an youth, Dilipan went fast for two weeks without even taking
>	a drop of water and died when Indian troops landed in Sri Lanka.
>
 It is a big joke that LTTE ever heard of Ghandheeism. Gandhi went to fasting
himself and did not ask another guy to go fasting instead of him. Definitely
Indian Government cared more about Dilipan's life than LTTE which would not
have let him end his fasting even if he wanted to. It was no different from our
Dravidian style "self immolation".

- Arun
>
>M. Sundaramoorthy
>sundar@indigo1.hsis.uci.edu
>sundar@esv1.hsis.uci.edu    
Xref: sparky soc.culture.tamil:1641 soc.culture.indian:29458
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil,soc.culture.indian
Subject: Re: HELP WITH PRE/POST COMPLETION EID
From: vivek@ecst.csuchico.edu (Vivek R. Prabhu)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 19:28:11 GMT
Organization: California State University, Chico

In article <19894@plains.NoDak.edu> velmurug@plains.NoDak.edu (Velmurugan.A. ) writes:
>
>
>Hi guys
>
>
>	I heard from my international students' office that the
>	immigration law has been changed regarding pre/post
>	completion EID. I would like to hear from those who have
>	gone through this process off late. 
>
>	
>	My nearest immigration office is BLOOMINGTON, MINNESOTA.
>	I would appreciate any additional info about this office.
>
>
>Velu

The Immigration authorities have indeed changed the law as of July 21st,
1992. The Pre-completion training option,  which had been deleted in the 
amended Law from Oct 21st, 1991,  has been reinducted into the Law since
July 21st this year. Previously as of Oct 21st 1991 onwards, what had to
be applied for was Co-ops, but now, we have the option to have it as the
Pre-completion training itself.

As for the INS at Minnesota, I am not aware of the fact that  whether it 
is fast in the processing of applications or not,  and this is something
left as an exercise for you to do,  since  there may be many reasons why
they may be either slow or fast.

Regards,
Vivek.

-- 
vivek@cscihp.ecst.csuchico.edu (Vivek R. Prabhu),
Research Assistant, Department Of Computer Science, 
School Of Engineering, Computer Science And Technology,
California State University, Chico, California.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
From: sp2@cec1.wustl.edu (Sundara Pandian)
Subject: Re: Kamban on SurppaNagai
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis Mo.
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 17:46:37 GMT

In article <kat.715624945@sybok> kat@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurthi) writes:
>In <9209041601.AA02540@cec1.wustl.edu> sp2@cec1.wustl.edu (Sundara Pandian) writes:
>
>
>   vaNakkam! pandiarE!  Some clarifications. 

>
>> \(TAMIL)
>>   panchiyoLir vinchukuLir pallavam aNunga
>>   sencheviya kanchanimir cheeradiya laagi
>                                    ^^^^^^^
>  sandhEkam! I thought it is cheeradiyaLaagi=cheer adigaL koNda vaL aagi! 
>the feminine vaL.
> Please clarify. 

     You are correct. It should have been `cheeradiyaLaagi'. But this
 doesn't alter my translation however.

>>   ancholiLa  mannaiyena annamena minnum
>
>   In silambu also, iLango uses manynyai(peacock). I don't know how it translates into
>ADAMI,
>    kovalan describes kannaki's complexion(saayal) and kural (voice)
>He goes like (I forgot the whole poem), but starts like
>
>maa iru peeli maNi neRa manynyai( meaning peacock) 
         
    I took the verse from Zvelebil's transliterated form given in his
 book( p 214 ). He has not translated this verse, but comments on the
 metrical pattern in the verse. 

> Kathiravan

                                                               S.Pandian
                                                        sp2@cec1.WUSTL.edu
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
From: kat@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurthi)
Subject: Re: kamban-Ramaayanam
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 14:42:52 GMT

In <1992Sep3.110242.14022@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> babu@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Natarajan Sureshbabu) writes:


>> panjiyoLir vinchukuLir pallavam anungka 
>> senjsevia kanjam nimir seeRadiyaLaaki
>> am sol iLa manynyai yenna annam ena minnum
>> vanjiyenna nanja mena vanja makaL vanthaaL.


>Probably the third line is .... mangai ena ...

     It is manynyai-peacock

  What is kanjam nimir here. 

>and the  fourth is .....vanji ena .....
>Also what is senjsvia in the 2nd line? Is it senchevia?
>I do not know many words in the first two lines.
 yes, senchevia-I think sharp ears (some about her listening faculty)
>panjioLir - bright like cotton 
>vinjukuLir- very cold ( Or is it manjukuLir, i.e. cooler than clouds?)
>pallavam, anungka ( anangu?), kanjam - ??


pallavam-meaning feet.
 
>I will start with seeRadiyaaLaaki. 

>Isn't vanjam like in vanjam theeRkiRathu used for taking revenge?
>If so, why should Soorpanaka, the one this poem refers to, think
>of taking revenge? This is the first time she is going to meet
>Rama. may be Kamban is refering to something that happened in
>a previous avatar(am) of Vishnu. May be Kambans love for Sita
>is too great, that he can not even tolerate the idea that
>someone would try to lure her husband. He also uses the 
>word 'nanju'

>Rough meaning, 

>The revengeful soorpanakai (vaja makaL), with venom in her 
>heart ( nanjam ena), transforming herself as a sweet spoken young lady
>(am sol iLa mangai ena) with tiny feet (seeRadiyAlAki) walked in
>gracefully like a swan (annam ena).as well as young peacock. 
                   i^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>She was shining like a climber ( kodi in Tamil)(minnum vanji). ( This comparison
>is to bring out the shyness expressed in her posture in front
>of Rama, may be)

I still am not sure about vinjukuLir-why excess cold. Is it
because of she was afraid of the act.
>>
>> I am not sure about the words. But the sounds are
>>great. This is by far my favourite lines in kamban's
>>work.
>>
>>
> Good work.
  Thanks, 
Kathiravan
From: sp2@cec1.wustl.edu (Sundara Pandian)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
Subject: Kamban, VaLLuvan and KaNNadhaasan
Date: 27 Aug 1992 16:25:04 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

Natarajan Sureshbabu writes :
---------------------------
> kat@doe.carleton.ca (Kathiravan Krishnamurthi) writes:

>>>   "yeNNarum nalathinAL inaya niRuzhi
>>>    kaNNodu kaNNinaik kavvi ondRiyondRu
>>>    uNNavum nilaipeRAthu uNarvum ondRida
>>>    aNNalum nOkinaan, avaLum nOkinaaL"
>>>
>>>   kamban

>>exchanged)
>>
>>"kaNNodu kaNNinai nOkkokin vaaichsoRkaL
>>yenna payanum ila."
>>
>>.

>ThiruvaLLuvar also talks about the opposite. i.e., the 
>lovers do not see each other eye to eye.

> yAnOkkun kAlai nilannOkkum yanOkkakkal
> thanOkki mella nagum.
> Bye
> Babu.

   Allow me to correct the errors that you have made in
the above kuRaL. The correct one using K.Srinivasan's
ADAMI transliteration scheme is,
 
  `yaan-nOkkum kaalai nilan-nOkkum nOkkaakkaal
   thaan-nOkki mella nagum.'

   The usage of the word `nagum' may be thought about.
 I think that `avaL nagum' is grammatically incorrect.
 The correct form is `avaL nagaiththaaL'. `nagum' is
 used for `onRan paal' [ adhu, idhu, mudhaliyana.]
 May be, that such grammatical rules are relaxed for
 poems. 
    Kaviyarasu KaNNadhaasan copied this kuRaL in his song
 `nEtru varai nee yaarO, naan yaarO
  inRu mudhal nee vERO, naan vERO..'
 to write the lines,
  
 ` unnai naan paarkkum pOdhu maNNai nee paarkkinRaayE
   viNNai naan paarkkum pOdhu ennai nee paarkkinRaayE..'.
 
                                                S.Pandian
                                         sp2@cec1.WUSTL.edu
 
---------------------------------------------------------------	
        isaindhaal nam iruvarin swaramum namadhaagum
        dhisai vEraayinum yaazh-isai aarugaL
	mughilaay mazhaiyaay pozhivadhu-pOl 
        isai, nam isai..
---------------------------------------------------------------
From: partha@mse.ogi.edu (R. Parthasarathy)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
Subject: Any Tamils from other than India & SL?
Date: 28 Aug 92 22:29:16 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.42112
Distribution: world
Organization: Oregon Graduate Institute, Material Science & Engineering

I see only articles and discussions from Tamils from India
and Srilanka. Are there any Tamils from South East Asia,
South Africa, Mauritius, The Caribbean etc.. subscribing to
this net? Do you guys have anything to contribute to this net?
If so, it will make this forum a lot more interesting.

As an aside note, I saw in CNN a Malaysian made car named
"Proton - ISWARA". (Though the first word sounds Malay, the
second one is definitely from Indian origin, meaning God).

R. Partha sarathy
From: srini@ireq-num.hydro.qc.ca
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
Subject: Casteism in TN in the last century
Date: 26 Aug 92 15:56:13 GMT
Reply-To: srini@ireq-num.hydro.qc.ca (K.Srinivasan)
Organization: IREQ, Hydro-Quebec, QC, Canada
Originator: srini@acr

sundar@indigo1.hsis.uci.edu (M. Sundaramoorthy) writes:
MS>Till the British arrived in India, all the three classes, Brahmins,
MS>Kshatriya and Vaisyas were cooperative among themselves. Brahmins
MS>took the religion, the Khshatriyas were the ruling (and land owning)
MS>class and Vaisyas were the business class. These three classes
MS>were in close cooperation and oppressed the sudras

MS>During and after British the rule, power sharing became open to all the
MS>three upper classes and the struggle continues till today and so
MS>the classes which cooperated among themselves earlier, became
MS>bitter enemies.

1. I think 'Kshatriya' caste is practically non-existant in Tamil region.
2. In the sence that 'Vaishyas' supported temples and priests financially
   the 'co-operation' did exist. In fact, it exists as much, during and
   after British times, even now.
3. Money is powerful, so it is pretty obvious, they received better
   treatment than sudras, in Temples etc. They probably still do.
4. As regards 'oppression' of the sudras, the two were entirely different
   in my opinion. The Brahmins 'oppressed' them in a social manner.
   But the others exploited them economically.
5. The two problems should be treated differently. Social discrimination,
   should be removed by social decrees. Not by punishing a whole caste
   including the poor, financially.
6. Even education wise, though the percentage was certainly high, there
   were those with poor education and in poverty among the Bramins also.
   They are among those who are most affected today.

MS>P.S: If there are no objections, I will post the translation of
MS>Rajgouthaman's article. Please send personal mails. 
MS>M. Sundaramoorthy
MS>sundar@indigo1.hsis.uci.edu

I doubt if discussing about the evaluation of the past by different
authorities, will help the 'present' and the 'future'. The mistakes
of the past can not be a justification for mistakes of the present.

K. Srinivasan  srini@ireq-num.hydro.qc.ca
From: rgopi@calypso.eng.uci.edu (Ramesh K. Gopi)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
Subject: music club
Date: 3 Sep 92 19:48:01 GMT
Reply-To: rgopi@calypso.eng.uci.edu (Ramesh K. Gopi)
Organization: University of California, Irvine

Friends,

  I, being an ardent fan of Carnatic Music, especially of Carnatic Music stepped in and rendered in its traditional purity, have a proposal to make.  I propose that those of us who really appreciate this music, form a music aprreciation club over this network.  It is hard to arrive at a universal definition for what one considers `classical' so I can only speak for myself.  The only artists I listen to are the following people:

1. K.V. Narayanaswami
2. Madurai Mani Iyer
3. Ariakudi Ramanujam Iyengar
4. Semmangudi Srinivasa Iyer
5. D.K. Patammal and Jayaraman
6. Alathur Brothers
7. M.D. Ramanathan

  I don't think all our musical tastes have to be the same.  However, there should be a sort of common theme in all the music that we appreciate.  For example, I have not mentioned G.N.B or Musiri, etc.  However, one may include such artists in this category if they wish.

  The purpose of this club is primarily to exchange and copy tapes.  Many of us have tapes among us that others would benefit from as well as enjoy listening to. If we had such a club, the otherwise laborious task of collecting rare tapes etc would be facilitated.  In this short life, it is very unfortunate, if we don't fulfill the potential to listen to as much good music as possible, and take advantage of this excellent avenue of communication to further this goal.  This club will have no heirarchy(presi







dent, vp etc).  Everyone is an equal member.  Here's one way in which it could work(I am totally open to suggestions, etc). Everyone who is interested in joining, may submit to me by e-mail some kind of interest form which would indicate the individual's type of musical inclination and would include specifics such as artists,etc.  I, in turn would compile a comprehensive list including all these forms and post it on to the network along with every individual's e-mail adress.  This list would be periodicall







y updated if and whenever necessary by myself or anyone else willing to do that job.  If you have any questions or comments you can contact me personally by e-mail.

Ramesh K. Gopi
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
From: thiyagarajan@mims.enet.dec.com (RT)
Subject: Re: A CHALLENGE TO THE OPPONENTS OF CASTE BASED RESERVATIONS
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 14:25:27 GMT



Before replying to Prem's views let me express my views on reservation and how
we can solve it.

I hope that every netter will agree that all indian citizens regardless of
their caste, have a right to get education. Sinces there are more qualified
students than the system can accomodate, we have all kinds of fighting among
ourselves on caste basis which everyone should be ashamed of.

To solve the problem and unite the people together, we can build more
educational institutions like in USA. Set a minimum standard for any course.
For example getting admission to BE 60%, so anyone regardless of the caste if
he has more than 60% the govt should find him a suitable college.

I do not think that this is going to work. The politicians are after vote and
they will use the caste card to do anything.

Another point suggested by Prem is worthwhile like widening the quota for OC
and my suggestion is to remove the caste-list from BC one by one when they
attain 'self-sufficiency'

This is also I am very skeptical. Politicians will try to add more and more
castes to BC list to get votes. They do not have guts to remove any caste from
BC list.

So what we FC people can do practically. We Indian Tamils have no tradition of
gun-culture or in violent methods. We do not have vote power, no visible
persons in politics to view our opinions.

So the best thing is study harder get into central govt institutions like IITs 
or get out of Tamil Nadu. I would suggest people to move to USA or singapore
where no one bothers about castes. I think you can help your
community/suffering bright students from overseas than in TN.

This is a sad decision where you cut out of your culture, family and friends.
But in long term I think this might help. Atlease your children need not bother
about any quotas.

Any criticism, suggestions are welcome.

Thanks for listening
RT
From: nas_ng@jsc.nasa.gov. (Naga Ganesan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
Subject: TiRUPPATI
Date: 27 Aug 1992 15:48:29 GMT
Reply-To: nas_ng@jsc.nasa.gov.
Organization: G.E. Government Services



                        ------------
                         Tiruppati
                        -----------

   In Madurai, a Sultanate was founded in 1330 A. D. The Srirangam temple,
Madurai temple and a few others ceased to perform pujas. Kumara Kampana
Udaiyar's wife, Gangadevi wrote a sanskrit work, Madura Vijayam on the
restoration of these temples to old glory by Vijayanagar rulers.

  During those years of Madurai Sultanate, the idol of Ranganatha, used
in the processions, was carried away to many places and hidden for protection.
Those places include Sathyamangalam, Coorg, Kanchi and Tiruppati.

 When the priests from Srirangam settled down in Tiruppati during those 
tumultuous years, they started elaborate rituals like those of Srirangam,
PirativAti Bhayankaram ANNaN wrote the SubhrabhAtam so famous today.
In that he praises the Tamil saint MaNavALa mAmunikaL.

N. Ganesan
nas_ng@gese03.jsc.nasa.gov
From: partha@mse.ogi.edu (R. Parthasarathy)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
Subject: Re:SILADAI
Date: 1 Sep 92 23:56:09 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.42252
Distribution: world
Organization: Oregon Graduate Institute, Material Science & Engineering

>Sundara Pandian writes:


>      In ADAMI the veNpaa may be written as
>\(TAMIL)

 [Repetition deleted..]

>chaththiram praising the food served therein. The second meaning of
>this veNpaa is

>   aththamikkum pOdhil arisi varum
>  = Fresh rice from the paddy fields is used for preparing the meals 
>    served at the chaththiram ( Fresh rice arrives after sunset from
>    the paddy fileds )
>
>  kuththi ulaiyilida oor adangum
> = The rice cooked at the chaththiram is so abundant that it can be
>    utilised for serving the entire town 
>  
>  oru pidi aNNam ulaiyilida veLLi ezhum
> =  The rice served at the banana leaf is so bright that a handful
>    of cooked rice is like Sun.
>
>   The chaththiram owner was happy to hear this second meaning and
> he served another meal to Poet KaaLamEgam.
>
>    Here is one entry from Madurai.
                                                           
>                                                               - SP
>                                                 sp2@cec1.WUSTL.edu

Actually the second meaning sounds slightly different from the above.

	Aththamikkumpodil arisi varum
	 = Even during famine time rice will come to the Kaathaan Chatram

	Kuthi Ulaiyilida Ooradangum
	 = It will satisfy the needs of the people

	Oru pidi annam ilaiyilida velli ezhum
	 = This refers to the feeling of goodwill in people after
	   the Choultry is able to meet their needs during famine.


Asokan writes:

>Just to pick nits:

>veLLi is, IMHO, not a reference to the sun.  It is a reference
>to vidiveLLi, the morning star, aka venus.  Not that it changes
>the meaning or SP's lucid description in any significant way....
>
>Regards,
>
>- Asokan

	I think you are right. Velli should refer to planet Venus and
	not the sun. What the line refers to is the morning. Thanks for
	pointing out.

	Partha sarathy


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Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil