From: stojanov@husc8.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: who was in 'power' in BH (was: Re: Call It Anything but Peace)
Date: 11 Nov 92 21:16:13 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1992Nov11.161615.17354
Organization: Harvard University Science Center


Whenever I try to do something better then to correct attempts to play with
past and present, something like this appears:

In article <BxKACt.A4z@me.utoronto.ca> arnsenad@me.utoronto.ca (Senad Arnautovic) writes:

>
>The Bosnians are people living in Bosnia, and Hercegovians are the people
>living in Hercegovina of orthodox, catholic, islamic, jewish confessions,
>atheists and all others who feel BH is their country by sharing the same
>historical and cultural heritige. So, Bosnian Croats are the Bosnians,
>Bosnian Serbs are the Bosnians.

So it is just a geographical notion.  Good. 

>Of course, those who claim they are Serbs but not Bosnians of orthodox
>confession or atheists, can live in BH since the BH constitution respects
>the rights of minorites. In this regard, the situation is similar to those
>in neighboring countries: Croatia is the country of the Croatian people
>and others, Serbia is the country of Serbian people and others, etc.

Wrong.  Serbia is not defined as national state.  There is nothing like
Serbian people and others, like there is in Croatia. 

>

>>	In the light of which I said above: Bosnian Serbs are also "Bosnians",
>>they  didn't want to  seceede. According to the 1991 census data there are 31% 
>>of Bosnian Serbs + 6% of those who declared themselves as Yugoslavs (which are 
>>also  mainly  Bosnian  Serbs
>
>not true. Most Yugoslavs are either Slavic Muslims, the remnants of older
>times when Muslims were not allowed to be called so by UDBA (the security
>police). Others are from mixed marriages of all confessions.


UDBA made up Muslims as a nation.  You know that too well from the 
cases of people who refused to be Muslims, like Mesa Selimovic.
BTW, what do you think of him?  Traitor, lunatic?  
As far as Yugoslavs are concerned check the 1991 and 1981 census data, 
and you would see that you are wrong ( Serbs%1991 + Yugoslavs%1991 =
Serbs%1981, roughly, things are more complicated because of some Croats).


>> who didn't want secession and warned that they will 
>>seceede    from   such   artificially  made  state   as  today's  "independent 
>>Bosnia-Herzegovina" was supposed to be.
>
>Again, you skip the history class on BH in high school in Belgrade
>(to say most politely).
>Bosnia-Hercegovina is the state as old as Serbia. The Bosnian ban
>Boric came to power in 1158, followed by Kulin 1180-1204 whose
>herald is now official herald of Republic of Bosnia-Hercegovina.
>The first king of Bosnia become Tvrtko 1353-1391 who even conquered
>most of Serbia after the death of Serbian czar Dusan.

Aha.  As if everything starts with Kulin.  According to the Eastern 
Roman Emperor Constantin who left us an important account of his time, 
Serbs lived in what is now Bosnia and what is now Serbia.  They had 
state there under Caslav in early 9th century.  After collapse of Caslav 
state the paths of those two geographical regions separated. Then 
you should check about Hercegovina, which  had Serbian state character 
throughout whole history before Turks.

If you want to know who you are ( Bosniaks ) you should read something
from Baron Von Kallay, a father of Bosnian Nation and A&H governer
of Bosnia.  He wrote a book where he claimed that Bosnia is ethnically
Serbian.  When he was appointed he banned his own book.  A&H decided
that Muslims in Bosnia, as well as Serbs, should be separated from,
then free, Serbia and Montenegro.  This was rather successful, taking into
accound events that followed.

Talking about skipping classes. 

>
>> According to all statistical data, those
>>same Bosnian  Serbs own more than 60% of the land, so who can decide in their 
>>name?
>
>For three centuries Bosnians of islamic confession were landords,
>with Christians having had very few acres of land.

So this was legal ownership?  I see, I should quote here Alija Izetbegovic's
book.  Islamic law applied of Christians, you would like to see that again?


>Those lands were unlawfully taken away from the Bosnians in 1918 by 
>Serbian-dominated Yugoslavia thru the agrar reform. I am prepared to provide

So land-grab by Islamic landowners in occupied country is O.K.  while
reversal under much milder conditions was not.  
I think that legality of this move ( both on Kosovo, South Serbia and
Bosna ) was sealed in treaty between Turkey and SHS Kingdom
signed by Aleksandar I Karadjordjevic and Mustafa Kemal Ataturk.
Some Turks reading this might be willing to provide more details. 
The most of the land had owners that were not present at the moment, and
that had no wish to return. 

>a reference for my claim. So 60% of land is data after land-grabbing
>took place.>
>> do  If muslim Slavs want to seceede why don't give that right to the others, 
>         ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>All non-Serbs in BH voted out. Why did Serbs choose not to vote at all?
>Why did not they vote NO? So, you don't know how many Bosnians
>of orthodox confession would vote for YES? I would say a reasonable
>number, as well a resonable numbers of the same group fight now
>in Bosnian army, including the son of Serbian warlord Mr. Karadzic.
>>too?  Or  are  we speaking double standards, again? 


Clever! I am amazed ( amused ). Check the numbers and you 
would see how well referendum data fits this:
Yes vote:  Croats + Mulsims
No vote: ( separate Serbian referendum ) : Serbs + majority of Yugoslavs

About Karadzic's son,  you should not believe
everything they serve you as a comfort. It might be 
a big blow when you realize that they were lying.


>>>the order quite well, despite the accommodations made by Muslim
>>>and Croatian parties to please the Serbs by speaking
>>>about "sovereignity" (not the same as "independence")
>>>The vote on "sovereignity" were carried out in BH parliament, attended
>

Try to distinguish between sovereignity of the nations and 
that of the state.  Whole thing in parliament was because of that.


>However, I think Mr. Izetbegovic, in his role as the president
>of the Slavic Mulsim party, does not represent all Bosnians of
>islamic confession and atheists. I do recognise  him as the President
>of Rep. of BH, representing all Bosnians.

Sure, you are Muslim, it is normal that you think like that.  
Serbs do not, which is also normal.

>Senad Arnautovic



Milan N. Stojanovic
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna