HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ajj@zycor.lgc.com (Andrew Jackson)
Subject: Upstate?
Summary: What is Upstate?
Organization: Landmark/Zycor   Austin, Texas
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 21:49:53 GMT


Hi all,

I am not a native of New York. I'm a military brat whose father grew up
in the Southern Tier, Waverly to be precise.

When I talk about NY state to people who do not know much about the
place, I use "upstate" in the sense of NOT that black pit at the mouth
of the Hudson River. I have met quite a few people in Texas who visited
other places expecting something like New York City. They were very
pleasantly surprised. I'm sure you guys from outside NYC have met many
people who equate the state with the City.

Now if I was to talk about New York state to people who know about it
(for example where my dad grew up), then I'll say that he grew up in the
Southern Tier.

Cheers,

========================================================================
Andrew J. Jackson                     voice: 512-282-6969
Landmark/Zycor, Inc.                  fax  : 512-280-6731
220 Foremost Dr.                      email: ajackson@zycor.lgc.com
Austin, TX 78745
========================================================================
From: mcmahon@Tgv.Com (John 'Fast-Eddie/FuzzFace' McMahon)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.ny-upstate
Subject: Re: Would you consider Kingston Upstate
Date: 15 Dec 1992 18:11:28 GMT
Organization: TGV, Incorporated in Santa Cruz, California, USA
Distribution: usa
Reply-To: mcmahon@Tgv.Com (John 'Fast-Eddie/FuzzFace' McMahon)
NNTP-Posting-Host: code-z.tgv.com
Keywords: Kingston


In article <BzAJB7.Jxz@cs.psu.edu>, jdh@math.psu.edu (Jeremy D Hall) writes:
=>
=>Hey now, that's a good question:  What do people here consider to be "upstate"?
=>I'm from Syracuse, and generally consider everything north of Westchester
=>County to be Upstate.

Having lived in two areas called "Upstate" I came to the following 
conclusion.  "Upstate" is often a definition of where you are, and
whether or not you feel you are in "upstate" New York.

For example:  

1)  Living in NYC ?  "Upstate" is anywhere past the Bronx-Westchester
border.

2)  Living in the Southern Catskills (Dutchess/Ulster/Orange/Sullivan) ? 
"Upstate" is either Albany, or Syracuse, or Utica, or anywhere along I-90.

3)  Living on I-90 ?  "Upstate" is either Oswego, or Lake George, or
somewhere in the Southern Adirondacks.

4)  Way above I-90 (Watertown, Lake Placid, Potsdam, Plattsburgh) ? 
"Upstate" is where you live, since you are running out of space to
the north.

In other words...  "Upstate" is a relative term.

Cheers!
John McMahon
resident - Middletown, NY in Orange County (1966-1984)
resident - Potsdam, NY in St. Lawrence County (1984-1986)
currently stuck in California

--
John 'Fast-Eddie' McMahon    ()
TGV, Incorporated            () "Any networking problem can be solved by
603 Mission Street           ()  the application of 33 miles of Unshielded 
Santa Cruz, California 95060 ()  Twisted Pair (UTP)"   
408-427-4366 or 800-TGV-3440 ()                      [InterOp Spring 1992]
E-Mail: MCMAHON@TGV.COM      ()
From: edp@sneaks.kodak.com (Ed Pendzik -- Sun Consulting)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.ny-upstate
Subject: Re: Best Rochester Restaurants?
Date: 16 Dec 92 21:58:44 GMT
In-reply-to: de@moscom.com's message of 16 Dec 92 15:46:33 GMT

best asian: bangkok, on state st across from old ibm bldg
best italian: vesuvio's, on university st downtown, north of main
best middle eastern: alladins, on monroe, in punk area.
best mexican: maria's, in village gate mall, on south goodman st.


	Enjoy, 
	Ed Pendzik

Newsgroups: alt.culture.ny-upstate
From: eradm@wbst845e.xerox.com (Erik Radmall)
Subject: Re: Would you consider Kingston Upstate
Reply-To: eradm@wbst845e.xerox.com
Organization: Xerox Corporation
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 16:37:24 GMT

In article 1gqevrINNnki@loon.graphics.cornell.edu, hurf@boa.graphics.cornell.edu (Hurf Sheldon) writes:
> 	Last Saturday Night live featured Glen CLose who told us all
> 	she lived upstate and brought all the towns trades people in
> 	to the show to sing on stage (really - it was kinda nice).
> 	I was trying to figure out where she was from when I recognized
> 	the grocer from Bedford. So in this case 'upstate' is about
> 	35mi north of NYC...
> 	
> 	BTW - Kingston is just 3 miles south east of paradise.
> 
> -- 
>      Hurf Sheldon			 Network: hurf@graphics.cornell.edu
>      Program of Computer Graphics	 Phone:   607 255 6713
> 
>      580 Eng. Theory Center, Cornell University, Ithaca, N.Y. 14853  
>      

I might as well consider my Hometown of New Canaan, Connecticut as Upstate New York
then, since it borders on Pound Ridge/Bedford. Hell, why not just annex _all_ of
Fairfield and Westchester Counties. I live in Rochester now, which I _do_ consider
upstate. By the way, I though Glen Close lived in Greenwich, CT.

---
From: mary@Cayman.COM (Mary Malmros)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.ny-upstate
Subject: Re: NEW YORK CITY!!!
Date: 20 Dec 92 22:00:01 GMT
Organization: Cayman Systems Inc., Cambridge, MA
In-reply-to: rajiv@athena.mit.edu's message of 17 Dec 92 16:37:34 GMT


In article <1992Dec17.163734.8962@athena.mit.edu> rajiv@athena.mit.edu (Rajiv A Manglani) writes:

   There's really no place like New York City. I moved to Boston this September,
   and dicovered that there's _no_ night life here. The trains and busses stop
   running at 1 am, and you have to be 21 to get into anything... I want to
   move back!

   Rajiv

There's plenty of night life in Boston.  We just didn't invite you.  ;-)

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Mary Malmros     | Cayman Systems Inc, 26 Landsdowne St, Cambridge, MA 02139
 mary@cayman.com  | Phone 617-494-1999  Fax 617-494-5167  AppleLink CAYMAN.TECH
From: de@moscom.com (David Esan)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.ny-upstate
Subject: Re: Best Rochester Restaurants?
Date: 16 Dec 92 15:46:33 GMT
Organization: Moscom Corporation, Pittsford NY

In article <1992Dec15.161325.24855@spectrum.xerox.com> eradm@wbst845e.xerox.com writes:
>Can anyone from the Rochester area help with a list of good restaurants in the area?

There is a group devoted to food in wny, called (ta da!) wny.yum.yum.

I believe that there is a list available.


-- 
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 -->     David Esan      de@moscom.com  
 
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.culture.ny-upstate
From: bpencek@nevada.edu (Bruce Pencek)
Subject: Re: Woodstock and questions
Organization: Political Science, UNLV
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 19:56:17 GMT

In article <1992Dec15.173420.8249@news.eng.convex.com> metzger@convex.com (Robert Metzger) writes:
>In article <1gk54aINNkrg@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU> schiesel-seth@yale.edu (Seth Schiesel) writes:
>
>1) spicy chicken wings, known here in Texas as "Buffalo Wings" (sic)
>2) Speidis (sp?) from Binghamton

Especially the guy with the grill in the lot of that grungy convenience store
on 13 east of town...

>3) Real white hot dogs and frozen custard from Rochester
>4) Grape pie from Naples (maybe I should post my wife's recipe for 
>   grape pie).
>
>Upstate New York is a real nice place to live.  Too bad it's politically
>subjugated to the lunatics in Hell-on-the Hudson.  If it ever secedes
>maybe I'll move back.
>
True enough.  But being a subject of the People's Republic of Ithaca is
an ever greater lunacy (though I'd reserve the neutron bombs for that ...
that ... place on the Hudson first)

-- 
* Bruce Pencek    Political Science Dept   UNLV    Las Vegas, NV  89154-5029 | 
* 702/895-4595  Internet: bpencek@nevada.edu  Bitnet: bpencek@nevada2.bitnet |
*  "To him, all good things -- trout as well as eternal salvation -- come by |
* grace and grace comes by art and art does not come easy."   Norman Maclean |
Newsgroups: alt.culture.ny-upstate
From: root@donut.endicott.ibm.com ()
Subject: Re: FIRST POST!!!
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 18:03:25 GMT
Distribution: na
Reply-To: kincer@owgvm6.vnet.ibm.com
Organization: IBM FSC Owego

In article <hellfire.724401050@garfield.catt.ncsu.edu>,
hellfire@garfield.catt.ncsu.edu (Brian Young) writes:
|> yankees@jhuvms.hcf.jhu.edu (Kenneth M Gelfand) writes:
|> 
|> 
|> 
|> 
|> >Wow, didn't expect to see a group like this...
|> 
|> >So tell me, what kind of culture happens in Poughkeepsie or Troy?
|> >Please keep me informed...:)
|> 
|> I kinda pictured the Adirondacks, Champlain, and the Potsdam area more
|> upstate New York.  Anybody here hike in the Adirondacks?  No culture, 
|> perhaps, but beautiful!
|> 
|> >								Kenny G
|> >							A proud down-stater
|> 
|>          hellfire@catt.ncsu.edu - Brian Young - bfyoung@eos.ncsu.edu
|>             GO NCSU WOLFPACK! (9-2-1) AP #13 and Gator Bowl Bound!
|> 

Don't forget about the Finger Lakes region and the great New York State
Wineries in that area...


Mike                              __  __o         / "Everythin's IMHO,
Kincer@owgvm6.vnet.ibm.com       __   \<,        /    irrespective of my
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~    ______()/ ()______/      employer's"
Newsgroups: alt.culture.ny-upstate
From: ramon@convex.com (Ramon Dominguez)
Subject: Re: Genesee Cream Ale
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 18:52:44 GMT
Organization: The Arts Babblative and Scribblative
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In article <1992Dec19.135913.28466@kodak.kodak.com> dennett@kodak.kodak.com (Charlie Dennett) writes:
=>In article <1992Dec19.020523.26387@nmsu.edu> dtasman@NMSU.edu (Dan Tasman) writes:
=>>Just thought I'd see what kind of memories that subject brings up ...
=>>
=>
=>Ah, yes.  The Green Death!  I recall my first run in with it over 16
=>years ago when I moved here from Massachusetts.  4 years of partying
=>at collage had not prepared me for that stuff.  I can't even drink
=>one bottle without getting a roaring headache now.
=>
=>Charlie Dennett --  dennett@kodak.com
=>

Bottle?  You mean you didn't indulge in the 5 gallon beerball?

-- 
Ramon Dominguez             | "Work is the curse of the drinking class"       
Convex Computer Corporation |                            --Oscar Wilde
ramon@convex.com            | "Ceci n'est pas une .signature file"
Newsgroups: alt.culture.ny-upstate
From: johnyg@microsoft.com (John Geer)
Subject: Brockport
Date: 16 Dec 92 18:46:10 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation


Hi.  Anybody out there from Brockport? 

-- 
John Y. Geer
ttoo mmuucchh ccooffee
My opinions are. 

Newsgroups: alt.culture.ny-upstate
From: pnilsson@dali.abo.fi (Patrik Nilsson INF)
Subject: Re: Adirondacks
Organization: Abo Akademi University, Finland
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 09:58:10 GMT

I was going to add that the culture up there was pretty limited to icehockey
(perhaps not quite true:-). But I didn't mind because I used to play a lot
of hockey myself. By the way, they had a Finn playing at Clarkson at that time,
who is now in the Finnish National Team. The games between Clarkson and SLU
were always really exciting.
But it's true - besides hockey there was a lot going on. Cultural or not!
I especially enjoyed the quarter-nights at a bar in Potsdam.
--
______________________________________________________________________
Patrik Nilsson  			e-mail:	pnilsson@aton.abo.fi
CS Department at Abo Akademi			pnilsson@finabo.abo.fi
Datacity, Lemminkaisenk. 14
20520 Turku, Finland
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.culture.ny-upstate
From: shedevil@leland.Stanford.EDU (Anne P. Mitchell, JD)
Subject: Re: Talking Proud!
Reply-To: shedevil@gw.home.vix.com (Anne P. Mitchell, J.D.)
Organization: Fathers Rights & Equality Exchange
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 92 10:32:57 GMT

In a recent missive dtasman@NMSU.edu (Dan Tasman) tells us:
>
>What I miss about Buffalo, in no particular order ... 
>
>* 97 Rock, even if most of the music is from dead white guys.

I dunno...I kinda miss 103 PHD, and Taylor and Moore

>* Hundreds of Greek restaurants with two tables and three stools, most open 24  
>hours a day.


And let's not forget the Towne Restaurant..on the corner of Elmwood
and...and...darn..one block towards downtown from North.



Newsgroups: alt.culture.ny-upstate
From: ean@gvls2.gvl.unisys.com (Ed Naratil)
Subject: Re: UpState New York?
Organization: Paramax Systems Corp., Valley Forge Labs, Paoli, PA
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 11:29:46 GMT

In article <1992Dec17.135536.14387@nosc.mil> koziarz@halibut.nosc.mil (Walter A. Koziarz) writes:
>In article <1992Dec16.192213.3142@gvl.unisys.com> ean@gvls2.gvl.unisys.com (Ed Naratil) writes:
>
>>(In the old days Barneveld was named Trenton.  Too much con-
>>fusion over Trenton, NJ and Trenton, NY.)
>
>actually, Barneveld is a village within the Town of Trenton...
>so there still exists Trenton, NY...
>
>
Actually, to be more correct, Barneveld is ONLY a US Post Office name of
an un-incorporated village within the Town (Township, Parish, etc) of
Trenton.
From: kreckman@cbmvax.commodore.com (Steve Kreckman)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.ny-upstate
Subject: Re: Bolivian girl to attend college in Rochester.
Date: 16 Dec 92 13:14:24 GMT
Reply-To: kreckman@cbmvax.commodore.com (Steve Kreckman)
Organization: Commodore, West Chester, PA

Being the home of the Eastman School of Music, the arts and entertainment
scene in Rochester is pretty active. Rochester also serves as the focus for
a great number of artisans in the finger lakes region. There are numerous
art festivals throughout the year (Clothesline Art Show, Corn HIll Festival,
Lilac Festival, etc.)

The nearby finger lakes region is a great place to tour through. There's
Letchworth Park (the "Grand Canyon of the East") which is a 17-mile long
park along the Genesee River about an hour south of the city. There also
numerous wineries surrounding most of the lakes. It's a pretty drive.

The cost of living is still fairly low there compared with similar size cities
elsewhere in the US so your entertainment dollar should go pretty far. Have
fun.

 

-- 
| Steve Kreckman                 |  kreckman@cbmvax.commodore.com           | 
|                                |  {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!kreckman | 
| You can't surf on microwaves!  |  Tel: 215-431-9108                       |
|                                |  Fax: 215-431-2805                       |
Newsgroups: alt.culture.ny-upstate
From: cjd8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher J de Zorzi)
Subject: Re: Albany **UNION COLLEGE** area
Reply-To: cjd8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Christopher J de Zorzi)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 01:45:31 GMT


Hugh, you're from RPI?  Hmm, at union we had a hard time figuiring what RPI
stood for....I thik we finally settled for Rats & Pigs Inc. or Rotten People
Institutionalized....got any for UNION?

Newsgroups: alt.culture.ny-upstate
From: seanp@seanp.btv.ibm.com(Sean Reilly)
Subject: Re: Any info on Potsdam or Clarkson U.?
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 11:10:46 GMT
Distribution: alt
News-Software: IBM OS/2 PM RN (NR/2) v0.14c by O. Vishnepolsky and R. Rogers
Reply-To: seanp@seanp.btv.ibm.com(Sean Reilly)
Organization: IBM T. J. Watson Research

In <YOUNT.92Dec16204755@fox.ece.cmu.edu> yount@fox.ece.cmu.edu (Charles Robert Yount) writes:
>
>I'm applying for a job at Clarkson U.  How about some information on
>the school or the town?  How far is it from civilization?  How is the
>weather?  How about the local attractions?
>
>Thanks,
>Chuck Y.
>

Unfortunately, Clarkson and the Potsdam area SHOULD NOT be equated with
civilization.  Not that they don't have running water or anything but I
wouldn't call it a city.  It IS a great place to be though.  I spent four
years up there and loved it.  If you hate cold, it's not the place to be.
Canada is about 45 minutes away.



Sean P. Reilly
Potsdam U, Class of '86.
Newsgroups: alt.culture.ny-upstate
From: multics@lachesis.acm.rpi.edu (Multics)
Subject: Re: Albany **UNION COLLEGE** area
Organization: The Voice of Fate
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 01:49:24 GMT

In article <johnsh-151292175220@mustang.stu.rpi.edu> johnsh@rpi.edu (Hugh Johnson) writes:
>
>Can't speak for Schenectady.  Troy, though, HAS fallen down.  And it most
>certainly can't get up.
>
Gee, you should have seen troy before they built the Uncle Sam atrium, or
seen troy when teh atrium was a big hole in the ground that no one had
money to fill :)
-- 
A good bureaucracy is the best tool of oppression ever invented.
Richard Shetron   USERFXLG@rpi.mts.edu  multics@clotho.acm.rpi.edu

Newsgroups: alt.culture.ny-upstate
From: eradm@wbst845e.xerox.com (Erik Radmall)
Subject: Best Rochester Restaurants?
Reply-To: eradm@wbst845e.xerox.com
Organization: Xerox Corporation
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 16:13:25 GMT

Can anyone from the Rochester area help with a list of good restaurants in the area?

Here's a starter list.

								Ratings (1-5)
Type		Name			Specialties		Food/Service/Ambience
--------------	----------------------	--------------------	---------------------
American	Hogan's Hideaway				3/3/4	
American	Rorbach's		House brew		4/3/3
Indian		India House					4/3/3
Newsgroups: alt.culture.ny-upstate,alt.religion.kibology
From: kibo@world.std.com (James "Kibo" Parry)
Subject: Re: Albany **UNION COLLEGE** area
Organization: Two rooms filled with typography, in downtown Boston
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 07:59:56 GMT

In article <johnsh-151292175220@mustang.stu.rpi.edu> johnsh@rpi.edu (Hugh Johnson) writes:
>
>Can't speak for Schenectady.  Troy, though, HAS fallen down.  

It's all my fault, too!
						-- K.


Newsgroups: alt.culture.ny-upstate
From: schultz@schultz.kgn.ibm.com (Karl Schultz)
Subject: Re: Would you consider Kingston Upstate
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 15:03:28 GMT
Distribution: usa
Reply-To: schultz@vnet.ibm.com
Organization: IBM AWSD Graphics Systems
Keywords: Kingston

In article <BzAJB7.Jxz@cs.psu.edu>, jdh@math.psu.edu (Jeremy D Hall) writes:
|> Hey now, that's a good question:  What do people here consider to be "upstate"?
|> I'm from Syracuse, and generally consider everything north of Westchester
|> County to be Upstate.

I agree.  Anything north of Westchester is upstate.

-- 
Karl Schultz   (in Kingston)             schultz@vnet.ibm.com
These statements or opinions are not necessarily those of IBM
From: fms@sw.stratus.com (Faith Senie)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.ny-upstate
Subject: Re: QUESTION
Date: 18 Dec 1992 20:02:48 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: hoop.sw.stratus.com

In article <1992Dec18.183702.11567@cs.cornell.edu>, turney@cs.cornell.edu (Jenn
Turney) writes:
> ...
> I've just moved to Pennsylvania (Wilkes-Barre) after 6 years at
> Cornell.  I spend my winter holidays with relatives in Lowville, NY (a
> nickel to the first person to give the correct pronunciation) and
> summers on Lake Ontario, near Chaumont Bay (another pronunciation
> trick).
> 

Well, I won't even bother trying Chaumont Bay, but Lowville rhymes with
Wow-ville (my Dad used to spend a lot of time up in that neighborhood,
so I get to hear about places like Lowville, Barnes Corners, Adams Center,
Pulaski, etc.)

When do I get my nickel?  :-)


Faith
ex-Cooperstown native, RPI '85


-- 
Faith M. Senie            InterNet: fms@vos.stratus.com
Stratus Computer, Inc.    InterNet: fms@hoop.sw.stratus.com
55 Fairbanks Blvd.       Pkt Radio: n1jit@ka1srd.ma.usa.na
Marlboro, MA 01752           Phone: (508)460-2632

"I'm afraid I don't know very much about Romulan Disruptor settings" --Spock
Newsgroups: alt.culture.ny-upstate
From: hf10@crux2.cit.cornell.edu (FieryPhoenix)
Subject: Re: Any info on Potsdam or Clarkson U.?
Organization: Cornell Information Technologies
Distribution: alt
Date: 19 Dec 92 03:24:42 GMT

>Unfortunately, Clarkson and the Potsdam area SHOULD NOT be equated with
>civilization.  Not that they don't have running water or anything but I
>wouldn't call it a city.  It IS a great place to be though.  I spent four
>years up there and loved it.  If you hate cold, it's not the place to be.
>Canada is about 45 minutes away.

Well, my boyfriend goes to school at Clarkson.  Since I go to a much larger 
school, I find Clarkson to be rather small.  Small can be good though if 
you're looking for a friendly atmosphere.  

The Canadian border is about 30-45 minutes away with Montreal being about an
hour and a half away.  There's also the closest thing to a mall in Massena, 
about 30 minutes away also.  Watertown is an hour west with the Thousand
Islands somewhere nearby.  Basically, there's lot a whole lot up there.

I'd suggest asking some people who go there.  Finger the school's internet
machine or something.  Good luck.

-FP



Newsgroups: alt.culture.ny-upstate
From: jmacvean@willamette.edu (Jennifer MacVean)
Subject: The St. Lawrence
Organization: Willamette University, Salem OR
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 18:36:57 GMT

I know no one will argue with me that the St. Lawrence River
is upstate, and Northern NY.  I'm not actually from there,
but my father is and we've visited a lot.  He was born in
Watertown and grew up mostly in Carthage, worked at the paper
mill, went to Rochester Institute of Technology, then joined
the Coast Guard and was stationed up in Newfoundland for part
of the time.

BTW, I believe Poughkeepsie is actually closer to "Puh-kip-see"
Although I might well be wrong, because my father moved to
Phoenix, AZ to work for GE which is where I grew up.  The 
culture part of this though is when we used to visit my
grandparents who lived in a cottage on the St.Lawrence River
near Alexandria Bay.  My grandfather would take us bass fishing
and tell us stories of how our ancestors came over from Scotland
and Ireland to Nova Scotia mostly, then moved down to Northern
New York.  Me, I'll never forget the ocean-going ships and the
big Lake barges that would go by as we scrambled for the
binoculars to see which country they were from.  We'd go around
to several houses on both sides of the river to visit relatives
and we'd cross the border to Gananogue (sp?) to go shopping and
see the locks.  The shopping just isn't as good as it used to
be.  We went back two summers ago to clean out the cottage and
divvy up the estate and we had 9 people crammed in that little
cottage, tho' my favorite things were the Civil War sword of a
great+ uncle and the pictures of my great great grandparents.

We went to pick up some of that sweet, light, quality maple
syrup you can hardly find anymore, and we've arranged to still
receive a block of white New York cheddar, Macadam I believe it
is, every Christmas.  

Happy Holidays,  Lynne

-- 
{ J. Lynne Mac Vean  } { Telnet: jmacvean@willamette.edu}     ____
{ whyte tyger / poet } { Snailmail: 900 State St. - G254}     \ _/__
{  Standard Disclaimer: Willamette University has better}      \\  /
{  things to do than agree with what *I* say - sheesh! }         \/
Newsgroups: alt.culture.ny-upstate