From: Tagi@cup.portal.com (Thyagi Morgoth NagaSiva)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: My answers (was Re: ... Definitions of "evil")
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 92 12:49:54 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world
  <1992Dec30.094606.18355@sobeco.com>

9212.30 e.v.


Clouds in the sky!  Fun!  Exciting!  Thrills and chills!  :>


An old and wise Ladislas question which has yet to be addressed:

What happens when a mage who holds real power decides upon a purpose with
such a drive?    [My tentative answer: Everything happens.]  


Ladislas elaborates on the question, given challenge:

a) 'Real power' is something which a mage may hold.

I've already stated for all to know that I do not consider myself a mage.
Though I search, I'm not yet a mage.


Response:

Cool!  I do consider myself a mage, so perhaps you can test me out.  :>


Ladislas:

I believe that real power (affecting the physical without direct influence
- as in voodoo, psychic phenomenon, etc.) is attainable.  Magick, from what
I read here about Thelema, is basically any act which is done according to
the Will.  I don't know how others in this forum perceive magick, so my
interpretation may raise some eyebrows and some chuckles.


Response:

Well, some might quibble with your definition of Magick and how it relates
to will, but that sounds reasonable to me.


Ladislas:

To support my interpretation, I see the universe (and whatever else there is)
as a big soup of energy.  I would compare this with Crowley's Love (from what
I read in A. Billings articles on the Orgone Commitee).  Since everything is
of and in this big soup, it makes sense that everything has influence over
everything else.


Response:

I'm not sure I understand this completely.  Is there a difference between
'influence over' and 'influence with'?  In other words, are you saying
that everything exists in some form of interhierarchy?  That Yin has
influence (power) over Yang and, in turn, Yang has influence over Yin?
This does makes sense to me, if so, but I'm not sure if I prefer the
hierarchy model over interfusion.


Ladislas:

Thus I conclude that a mage, as in one who has learned to "decide" upon his
influence, has real power and doesn't need to be content with just being
in the soup.


Response:

This seems rather awkwardly worded.  I think I'll challenge you here.

Substituting for your previous definitions I arrive at:

...a mage, one who acts according to the Will, one who has learned to 
Decide upon hir influence, having the ability to affect the physical 
world through nonphysical means (indirectly), gains the skills of  
self-direction and self-propulsion (i.e. surpassing the 
'passenger complex' of simply residing in the soup of universal flux).

[Ok, I added a little of my own interpretation also. ;>]


What is the nature of 'a mage' that she may hold 'real power'?

You say that a mage is one who has learned to 'decide' upon his influence,
one who has learned to act according to the Will.  I am asking something
more than this.  What is the nature of the being who acts?  If a mage and
everything else is part of a 'soup', then where does the mage end and the
'soup' begin?  


What is 'free will'?  How does this differ from 'Will'?

It would seem that 'free will' is an ability to decide one's actions.
'Will' seems to imply that there is a larger 'Flow', 'Tao' of 
Universe, with which we may grapple, opposing it with our 'free will'
or joining, infusing our 'free will' within it.  If you agree with this,
then does the mage really 'do' anything, especially when the force or power
(the 'influence') which she joins was there all along and irresistable?

Is it that the mage 'holds real power' or that the mage finally joins
the Way of Power?  Does the sailor move the boat when she turns the
sail into the wind and lets the boat become propelled?  Does she not
exert hir authority, hir will, more strongly when AGAINST the wind,
tacking, using the wind to overcome it?
 


Ladislas elaborates further on this apparent implication:

b) Mages do the deciding about their purposes.

All that life has shown me so far is that it is a question of continuity.
Evolution is within continuity.  A mage seeks his own evolution.  As well,
s/he may want to take part in the trials of continuity:  help as in helping
nature with its work.  Hindering is working against continuity.  This does
not stop the process but forces evolution to be more effective.  See the 
results in the rat and cockroach evolution.

The mage decides his purpose according to his Will (I use this freely for
it may mean 'destiny', 'mission in life' and a whole lot of other things).


Response:

I'm not sure that I understand exactly what is 'continuing' or 'continuous'.
Life?  The Universe?  Everything? :>  

I get the feeling that you are implying we can somehow work 'against nature'.
I don't think that this concept is reasonable, yet understand its
effectiveness at getting people to both relax and conform.  The former
goal seems more important to me, while the latter may be worse for
our environment.  Let me illustrate it this way:

"Johnny, it is your nature to wipe your ass on TIOLET PAPER!  If God had
intended you to wipe your butt on hankerchiefs or clothing then He wouldn't
have installed paper holders in the John!"

"Butterscotch, it your nature to conform.  Please do so."

"Relax, Thyagi.  It is your nature to be lazy." [Oh, thank you!]


My REAL challenge here, however is regarding your use of the word 'Will'
and how the mage 'decides' to follow it.  Who chooses this 'Will'?
Does the mage REALLY have a choice to follow the Will when it is so
painful and unsatisfying NOT to do so?  Aren't the 'laws of nature'
(so called) really a system of requirement with perilous penalties
for those who attempt to oppose them?  Aren't we trapped like rats
in cages, straining desperately to save our faces by 'choosing' to
act according to this Will which punishes us for attempting not to
do so?

(evil grin)



Another old question which Ladislas asked and deserves a better answer:

How does a mage deal with the responsibility that comes with power?
[My tentative response: By giving it away so it doesn't bother her.]


Ladislas also elaborates on the possible implications of this question:

a) A mage 'deals' with anything.

I must admit that I don't understand what you mean by "deals with anything".


Response:

'How does X deal with Y?' implies that X DOES deal with Y.

I only ask, is your question reasonable?  Does it make sense to ask it in
the way that you did?  MUST a mage face the responsibility which comes
with power?  MUST a mage 'face' anything?  Need a mage concern hirself
with ANYTHING at all?  Aren't all pastures alike (divine) to the mage?


Ladislas:

b) A mage may acquire power.

As described previously.  But it might not be acquiring as much as learning
to use what is there.


Response:

My goodness, this sounds very harsh.  'Using the power that is there'
sounds so very much like 'using the natural resources that are there'.
Is there an 'ecology of magick' which wise mages use?  I remember
old Ogion in _A Wizard of Earthsea_ (Ursula K. LeGuin).  He was what
I'd call a mage (ok, a wizard too!).  He didn't like to make a show
of 'using what is there' because there was a cosmic balance to be
maintained.  Do you think that there is such a 'cosmic balance' which
might be overturned with 'acquisition' and/or 'use' of available power?
 


Ladislas:

c) Responsibility comes with power.

According to the persons ethics, I would believe.  Picture this:  a person
changes the course of a river to irrigate his lands and feed the village.
In doing so, a whole ecosystem is destroyed.  If the person doesn't care
about the ecosystem, all is well for him.  His action was ethically sound for
him.  If he does care or if the damage and/or repercussions are more severe,
he then considers himself responsible.

A different scenario is that the person knows the solution to feeding the
village is in changing the course of the river.  He has the means to do it
but doesn't, either because he is uncertain of the damages that make result,
or simply because he doesn't care about the village.  If the latter is true,
he won't bother with the guilt.  If the former is true but not the latter,
he will feel responsible for his inaction.


Response:

Oh?  What is the purpose of 'feeling responsible for inaction'?
(i.e. GUILT)  Is guilt important to the activity of a mage?   Is guilt
important to ANYBODY besides those who would enslave us to them by
using it?  Yes, we can learn from our 'mistakes'/'errors'; really
from the PAST (since I don't believe in 'errors').  What is the role
of guilt in this process of learning?  Does it serve any purpose for
us that we might wish to hold onto it?  And more importantly:

Is responsibility the same as guilt?


[entire Jesus/Adepti/Magister discussion moved to another thread]


Ladislas concludes:

Hoping that my answers/explanations are clear enough and not too far-fetched.
Also hoping that I haven't made the discussion boring.


Response:

Clear enough for me.  Far-fetched?  Naw, only if incomprehensible.  Those
who say things are 'impossible' or 'ridiculous because improbable' are not
true philosophers or mages.  Beware.

Boring?  My brother's english teacher used to say that there are no
boring books, only boring people. I think that applies to posts also. ;>


Thyagi
Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.satanism