From: baseball@catch-the-fever.scd.ucar.edu (Gregg Walters)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: US presidential curse
Date: 17 Nov 92 08:35:41 GMT
Organization: Scientific Computing Divison/NCAR Boulder, CO

In Article: 16646 of soc.religion.christian,
ptfarre@afterlife.ncsc.mil (Peter Farrell) wrote >>

>> of a pagan curse from the early 19th century. You can no more prove
>> your side than he can his.  You are obviously not at all open minded
>> to the vaguest possibility of spiritual warfare.

Welcome to the fray, but...

Mr. Farrell, I deeply resent this personal comment.  Attack my ideas,
but back off with the bit about my lack of open-mindedness.  Besides
being a scientist, I am also a practising member of the Disciples of
Christ (a Deacon and the Financial Secretary for the Valley Heights
Christian Church in Thornton, Colorado).

God gave us the intelligence to appreciate His Creation, and to use
it wisely.  I can't be true to myself and my training as a scientist
if I waive my curiosity to ask questions, about the facts behind this
curse or anything else.  Questions are a reflection of open-minded
thinking.  Asking questions proves I am aware of "the vaguest pos-
sibility."  Refusing to answer them, or to discount their merit,
is closed-minded behavior.

There was no need to repeat Esson's summary of the zero-year presi-
dential deaths - such repetition of the obvious won't change my
opinion.  Anyone can find this information in an almanac.  It is
the details of this specific curse I want to see, and Mr. Esson has
failed to provide them.

I do want to thank Mr. Farrell for the story about Tecumseh.  He has
identified him as the "supposed author of the legendary curse".  Now
we are getting warm.  Out of respect for Tecumseh and the original
occupants of America, it would be nice to verify this before we lay
such an awful accusation upon this great native-American leader.

>> What may have motivated such a curse is easy to imagine; in this
>> period the United States hoodwinked numerous Indian tribes out of
>> their traditional dwelling grounds.

No doubt about this, but I have a nit.  According to my part-native
friend here in my office, the native-Americans roved about their
territories in a manner that allowed the environment to recover from
their activity, to renew the resources which they used conservatively,
if not reverently.  In just over 300 years Euro-Americans have made
quite a mess, eh?  Which people has shown the greater stewardship?

They may not be pagan.  Don't the Mormons believe that the native
Americans are descendants of a "lost tribe" of the Hebrews, and that
Christ appeared to them after His resurrection?  Sorry, I digress.
I imagine the extent of this roving varied from nation to nation.
"Traditional dwelling grounds" or whatever, it was HOME.  The
Euro-Americans were less than Christian about violently forcing
the natives out of their homeland.  No Christian love in this.

According to my Random House Webster's College Dictionary (c.1991),
which is hardly a great history text, but should be valid just the
same, Tecumseh was a Shawnee chief and died in 1813.  My 1991 World
Almanac, p. 441 says the battle of Tippecanoe ended Nov. 7, 1811.

>> One of the most famous Indian leaders of the day, Tecumseh, is the
>> supposed author of the legendary curse. It was pronounced after
>> Tippecanoe and battles such as Fallen Timbers as the Indians gradually
>> lost ground against the United States.

So Tecumseh uttered this curse after each Shawnee battle loss to the
Euro-Americans?  James Monroe was elected to a second term in 1820,
and he survived his term of office.  Many of the zero-year presidents
were first elected in a zero-year, but Monroe, McKinley, and F.D.
Roosevelt were actually re-elected.

So was Tecumseh's curse (if indeed he authored it) directed at
Harrison and those zero-year electees (first- or second-time)  What
about Monroe?  Granted that Harrison was the leader of the victors
at Tippecanoe, but why ignore Monroe, then curse all those after
Harrison?

Yes, I do see the record of events.  Was Tecumseh's curse reported by
a responsible newspaper of the time?  Too many of the Indian stories
of the times sensationalized things (including invention) like today's
National Enquirer...

>> There are no other cases that I have ever heard of or read of where a
>> sitting U.S. President has failed to live out the term. NONE. Ronald
>> Reagan is the first zero-year President to survive his term in over
>> 130 years. Pretty interesting "coincidence".  It is entirely plausible
>> that Reagan survived because this specific curse was addressed by a
>> group of Christians praying for him. What group that was, I do not know,
>> but it is known that 1980 was a big year for the Christian right in
>> American politics. They were ecstatic at his election and they played a
>> large role in his victory.

IT IS INTERESTING.  IT IS PLAUSIBLE.  But again, until my (closed-minded?
open-minded? whatever...) questions are better answered, my opinion is
that it is an incredible coincidence.  Were you aware that there was a
man named Kennedy on Lincoln's staff, and a Lincoln on Kennedy's staff?
Back in 1963 much ado was made about these and other truly amazing
coincidences "connecting" the 100 years between these assassinations.
Cause and effect?  Show me.

Maybe the curse was broken because Reagan was the first movie actor
elected president.  None of the other zero-year presidents were movie
actors.  Must be something there.... :-)

Again I say, quoting my earlier post, that "the power of curses is not
in their perceived effectiveness, but in causing the loss of time and
spiritual energy people spend discussing them."  Could we be missing a
chance to convert someone to Christ while debating this?

Mr. Esson made no reaction to this.  His only reaction to my last post
(article 16603) was to refer me to some Biblical passages about
Christians being protected from "elemental spirits of the universe"
whatever those are -

>> Galatians 4.3 (eg RSV).
>>
>> Scriptures like Rom 8.9 and 1John 5.18 and 4.4 help us to
>> understand the believer's strong protection - while other
>> scriptures like 1Cor 5.5 and 1Tim 1.20 serve as solemn warnings
>> in this domain.

I should keep a Bible at my desk here at work...  I need to make time
to read these passages and about Tecumseh real soon, before my
recollections fail me.

The bottom line though, is that you guys are promoting a revision of
history, and are therefore responsible for making your evidence known.
Like I said, the facts about the presidential deaths can be found in
an almanac.  No problemo.  WHERE IS THE CURSE DOCUMENTED?

Gregg

[I think we're reached the end of this topic, unless someone can
come up with more information.  --clh]