HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lbs@tkmhp2.physik.uni-karlsruhe.de (Lech Borkowski)
Subject: Re: Nazi camps
Reply-To: lbs@tkm.physik.uni-karlsruhe.de
Organization: Case Western Reserve Univ. Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 05:21:53 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.145557.16688@walter.bellcore.com> richf@cosmos.bellcore.com writes:
>i had hoped to stay out of this discussion but felt compelled to counter 
>the casual dismissal of polish anti semitism displayed by some posters.  
>the above post was in response to the following:

>In article <36962@uflorida.cis.ufl.edu>, lbs@madeira.phys.ufl.edu (Lech Borkowski)
>writes:
>|>
>|>  Now on the subject of antisemitism in Poland. Mainly right-wingers,
>|> ultra-nationalists and such were anti-Semitic but they did
>|> not become a dominant force. Still, they did a lot of damage
>|> to the Polish-Jewish relations. I am sure it will not be difficult
>|> to find sources, for anyone who wants to read about it, with
>|> detailed description of what the anti-Semitic propagandists
>|> said and what harm they have done to the Jews.

>i also believe my post is factual (which is more than i can say for the 
>above paragraph) visit the fortunoff video archives at yale or the yivo 
>institute in new york if you don't beleive me (that is where i get my
>information as well as a local oral history project in nj).

>i beleive it would be wrong and callous to say that all poles are/were anti
>semitic (and i hope that wasn't implied in my post, i only wanted to point
>out how wide spread these sentiments were), but to suggest that anti semtism 
>was confined to ultra nationalists and right wingers i find equally callous, 
>and that is my motiviation for posting.

>rich farenci

 I think the misunderstanding comes from the fact that I did
not express myself clearly enough. In the above quote I was
referring to aggressive antisemitism. I should have added
that there were many people who tacitly approved the aggressive
antisemitism. Just how many of the silent supporters did anti-Semitism
have (does it have)? We saw posts from several people trying
to give some answers to that.

 Lech Borkowski

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: goldberg@techunix.technion.ac.il (Jacques Goldberg)
Subject: Re: Hi, again! Rejecting tradition? (was On the SUPERIOR Role of Women)
Organization: Technion, Israel Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 07:24:18 GMT

hayim@locus.com (Hayim Hendeles) writes:

>I don't understand your point. Why is that relevent? Very few people
>are honest if you define honesty as not cheating on taxes or anything
>else. Would you prefer I change the definition of "honest" to make
>people feel better?
    The Rav of my neighborhood, Rabbi B.Z. Benedict, once taught on Shabbath
HaGadol that one who cheats on taxes does not need eating Mazzah Shmurah, since
he anyway won't have performed the Mizwah of  Mazzah, his Mazzah being a stolen
one (MAZZAH GNUVA). He did not say on taxes ONLY, he listed many and included
EVERYTHING else.
>Hayim Hendeles
   Yaaqov Goldberg
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Subject: Re: Document that! (was Re: Violent antisemitism?)
Organization: liver ---> spleen
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 12:50:59 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.015153.21424@wariat.org> zbig@wariat.org
(Zbigniew J. Tyrlik) writes:

>3) May I invite you for a trip to Europe, through Poland; we will
>go and face this antisemitism; we will spend some time there to
>see if you will be stoned - and in this case I will stand in front
>of you.

For the past several years, groups of people (not only Jews) have
hiked/marched the road to Auschwitz in a program called "The March for the
Living."  The road has been lined by Poles yelling antisemitic epithets,
throwing rocks, stones, and garbage.  A cousin of mine was on one and
confirmed what I'd heard on NPR and other news reports.

I urge you to put your money where your mouth is and join one of these
marches, hopefully on the side of the marchers.
-- 
Sam Saal      kingfish!saal OR saal@kingfish.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: hayim@locus.com (Hayim Hendeles)
Subject: Re: The Location of Eden (Re: Torah In A Torah Context)
Organization: Locus Computing Corporation, Los Angeles, California
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 21:54:19 GMT

In article <BuMqGA.7Fn@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes:
>	...
>
>Also, the beings guarding Eden are described.  It does not say that they
>cannot be seen, and essentially states that without these guardians people
>will be likely to enter Eden.
>
>Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399

Nor does it say that the "beings" can be seen. Usually, angels *cannot*
be seen, so one can probably assume these cannot be seen either.

The only thing it does say is the "beings" have a "lahat cherev
hamishapeches" which none of us have the faintest idea what that is.
(You can translate it, but remember you may be dealing with borrowed
terminology .)

Erego, if you were to translate this as some type of "force field",
that's probably as good a definition as anything else.


Hayim Hendeles
From: baker@ROBOCOP.NYU.EDU (Jonathan Baker)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: On Orthodox Monopoly
Date: 9 Sep 92 16:41:55 GMT
Organization: Courant Institute, New York University

Jordan, you are confusing Conservative and Reform.  Reform does advocate
abandoning much of the written law -- just look at Gates of Mitzvah to
get some idea of what they think a mitzva is, certainly not a "command".

Conservative, on the other hand, considers itself bound by Halacha.  I have
been reading "The Ordination of Women as Rabbis", ed. Simon Greenberg, which
you can borrow from Bobst.  They express various halachic and social
arguments both for and against the ordination of women.  Their main departure
from normative  Orthodox practice is to admit a minority opinion as valid.
Thus, they opened the door to allowing women to participate in minyanim in
1973, and still allowed more traditional congregations to maintain their
men-only policy.

	On the issue of ordaining women, they seem to have considered the
halachic obstacles and deemed them not insurmountable.  Basically, they
showed that the traditional functions of the rabbi, as witness, judge, 
and services-leader were not mandatory for a rabbi to do (while glossing
over, if not ignoring, the fact that in many communities, the rabbi is
the only shomer-mitzvot person available to witness marriages, or the only
person who can lein on a regular basis), and encouraged women to become
rabbis in the permissible roles of counsellor, teacher and preacher.  Since
modern ordination, whether from YU or JTS, is basically a graduate degree
given by examination, and has little to do with apostolic smicha (from Moshe),
there is no obstacle to ordaining women.  My personal opinion is that the
decision was somewhat irresponsible, and taken in an odd way, but they did
so within the confines of Halacha, as they saw it.

	In fact, a number of Orthodox feminists are predicting that the Orthodox
will be ordaining women in a limited role in a couple of generations.  Such
a situation would work better in an Orthodox situation than in a Conservative
one, as Orthodox congregations tend to have many shomer-mitzvot men who can
lead services, lein, and witness marriages.  In addition, many of today's
Orthodox rabbis have been taught by a woman, Nechama Leibowitz.  If a woman
of her caliber were to learn Talmud instead of Tanach, as she did, would she
be able to teach as a rabbi?  would she be able to teach rabbis?  if she could
teach rabbis, as did Bruria, why shouldn't she have the public acclaim of a 
modern ordination, which is not the smicha from Moshe?

     ---+  ||  --+  --+
        |        '    '             Jonathan J. Baker
     ---+-                          baker@robocop.nyu.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Kashruth of wine
From: VSANNICE@weizmann.weizmann.ac.il (Annice Grinberg)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 08:59:09 GMT
 <BuDB4v.H3E@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> <18nqfkINNcvr@agate.berkeley.edu>
Organization: Weizmann Institute of Science

In article <18nqfkINNcvr@agate.berkeley.edu>
schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz) writes:

>
>In article <BuDB4v.H3E@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes:
>
>>As I recall, the reason for prohibiting such wine was that the batch of wine
>>may have been used in heathen religious rites, or that even such rites may
>>have been used in the production of the wine.
>
>The reason you give is the one from Talmudic times.  The one I gave is the
>one that was given by later decisors.  I don't have the references handy,
>although I could look them up if I cared to, I guess.  But you will notice
>that I said "*one* reason", which does not exclude others.
>
>                                        Richard Schultz

My husband and I went on a tour of a (non-kosher) winery in Napa Valley
last summer.  To paraphrase the tour guide:  "This is where the grapes
come in, then the priest blesses them and they are sent to the crusher."
We spoke to the guide afterwards to make sure that he was serious, and
he said that this was a widespread practice in the region's wineries,
and that the priest was "paid" by giving him a case of champagne.

We also went to a smaller winery which was occasionally used to produce
kosher wines.  We were told that a crew of yeshiva students came in to
kasher out the place and supervise the wine making.  Evidently, most of
the California kosher wines are made in rented quarters, one excetion
being Weinstock.

Annice
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher)
Subject: Re:  Not a Charm?
Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 22:37:38 GMT

I always thought that a mezuzah was something we fix to our doorposts
because the Torah tells us to.  Anything further sounds dangerously
close to chassidut!

Aryk Nusbacher

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Subject: Re: Nazi camps
Organization: liver ---> spleen
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 13:10:11 GMT

In article <36962@uflorida.cis.ufl.edu> lbs@madeira.phys.ufl.edu (Lech
Borkowski) writes:

>In article <matthew.714799780@mugga> matthew@stats.mu.oz.au (Matthew
>Zalbiciewski) writes:

>>I do not know if the Nazis only had one target (implied by S.Saal's
>>"the Jews were the Nazis' target"). What about the Gypsies? Were
>>they not a target, or are Gypsies Jews?

I imply no such thing.

> I am posting a follow up on this a little late, but for some
>reason some of the messages arrive to my site several days after
>the original posting.

> Sorry, Sam, but I think you got carried away a little. 
>I don't remember anyone here on the net claiming that
>Poles were the intended victim of the Nazis. What people
>do say is that Poles were also victims of the Nazis.
>Approximately 6 million Polish citizens were killed in the war,
>of whom nearly 3 million were Polish Jews; about 640 000
>Poles were killed in combat.  
> During the Holocaust at least 5 800 000 Jews were murdered
>by the end of 1944 out of European Jewry of 8 700 000
>under German occupation. Different sources may give somewhat
>different numbers.

I don't deny this and I won't dispute the numbers (for the sake of this
discussion).  However, if you take the 6 million Poles and subtract the
Jews, then the intellectuals, Catholics, Communists, homosexuals, etc
(i.e. everyone _except_ Poles with no other affiliation), you are left
with the number of Poles killed simply for being Polish.  From that
number, though, you should also subtract Poles killed "as a lesson" to
other Poles for disobeying the Nazi occupyers and for other underground
activity.  For example, an entire family or more might be shot for one
person's activity.  This was an almost universal aspect to the German
occupation (though whether the lesson was applied to only a family or a
whole neighborhood may have varied across Europe).  What you have left
is a far truer number of Poles "qua" Poles as victimes.

I leave the number gathering and crunching to others.

The remainder of this post has been deleted as it is based on a mistaken
inference.
-- 
Sam Saal      kingfish!saal OR saal@kingfish.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: ayf@pruxp.att.com (Avi Feldblum)
Subject: Re: On Qadish
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 03:29:48 GMT

In article <7440001@hpnmdla.sr.hp.com> rogerp@hpnmdla.sr.hp.com (Roger Pollard) writes:
>There is an interesting opinion on this issue from (if I remember correctly)
>Rabbi Moshe Feinstein z"l  who said that those whose parents are alive should
>leave during Yizkor and that it was incorrect to remain (whether standing,

If anyone has a reference to this T'shuva of R' Moshe I would be
interested. I remember discussing this issue with my grandfather (who
was a posek in his own right) and he told me that this is a relatively
recent custom, and that in Europe everyone stayed in during Yizkor.

Avi Feldblum
feldblum@att.com
From: matthew@.cs.mu.oz (Maciek Blasikiewicz)
Subject: Re: Violent antisemitism?
Organization: Computer Science, University of Melbourne, Australia
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 05:08:29 GMT

hayim@locus.com (Hayim Hendeles) writes:

>In article <goldberg.715599867@techunix.technion.ac.il> goldberg@techunix.technion.ac.il (Jacques Goldberg) writes:
>>
>> ...
>>To summarize I do not see much contradiction between Hayim who writes about tha
>>suffering imposed on Jews in Poland 
>>by non Jewish inhabitants of that land, and Irek who claims that the Governement
>>of Poland was not always very antisemitic.
>>
>>Agreed , or deliberately interested in maintaining confusion?
>>Yaaqov Goldberg
>>


>You have brought up an excellent point. You are correct in your assertion
>that most of my Father's stories about Polish anti-semitism were
>directed against the Polish citizens, and not from the government.
>So, perhaps there may be some truth to your theory.

>There is a story about the Chofetz Chayim meeting with one of the
>top government officials, to plead for some specific Jewish interest.
>As the story goes, he was greeted quite warmly. (As the story goes,
>he spoke in Yiddish without the aid of a translator. The Polish
>official said something to the effect "words from the heart
>don't need to be translated". Does anyone know the details of this story?)

>(But I don't know if you can prove anything from this story, one way
>or the other.)

>My Father did tell me, however, though, that when a Jew was killed (G-d
>forbid), and the Police were called to  investigate, they would
>usually look the other way. But again, as you say, this was not
>official government policy, but rather the behaviour of certain
>individuals.

>One question though: Contrary to public opinion, a government is
>not a mindless entity (although it often acts as such), but rather
>consists of individuals. Most probably, it consisted of Polish
>individuals. So how was it, that the individual Poles were
>anti-semetic, but the collective government not (according to your
>theory) ?

>Hayim Hendeles

Do you have statistics indicating "that the individual poles were
anti-semitic"? I mean, what percentage were so, to what extent, etc.

MB
From: simon1@bass.bu.edu (Simon Streltsov)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re:  Not a Charm?
Date: 7 Sep 92 18:02:28 GMT
Reply-To: simon1@bass.bu.edu (Simon Streltsov)
Followup-To: soc.culture.jewish
Organization: Boston University

In article <1992Sep6.035846.5722@cs.tulane.edu> david@bourbon.ee.tulane.edu (David Kaufmann) writes:
>
>The letters on the outside of the mezuzzah, Shin, Dalet, Yud are one
>of the names of G-d. They are also an acronym for Shomer Daltos
>Yisrael, Guard the Doors of Israel.
>
Interesting... Can we trace origins of this acronym?

Simon


Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: pc@linus.mitre.org (Penny Chase)
Subject: Eliezer Berkovits
Organization: Research Computer Facility, The MITRE Corporation, Bedford MA
Distribution: soc
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 16:36:33 GMT

I would appreciate it if the person who had posted an obituary of
Eliezer Berkovits the other week would email me a copy.  I didn't save
it and would like to pass it on to Shimshon Berkovits.

Thanks.

	Penny
--
UUCP:  { ... }!linus!pc 
INTERNET:  pc@mitre.org
From: lbs@madeira.phys.ufl.edu (Lech Borkowski)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Nazi camps
Date: 8 Sep 92 05:32:54 GMT
Organization: University of Florida Physics Department - CMT Group

In article <1992Sep4.130418.1316@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> sethr@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (seth.r.rosenthal) writes:

>Anyway, in Martin Gilbert's book Holocaust, he describes
>the Warsaw uprising by the Poles against the Germans.  About
>1000 Jews who were hiding in Aryan Warsaw came out of hiding
>to fight side by side with their countrymen.  About 500 died.
>250 of these were executed by the Polish resistance, not the
>Germans.
>		Seth Rosenthal

 Please post more details (it will make it easier to verify):
when did it take place, where in Warsaw, who did it 
(the name of the unit), by what method, etc. Please post as
much information about it as possible. I would like to know more.

 Lech Borkowski
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: amir@leopard.gatech.edu (amir)
Subject: Patrilineal Descent
Organization: College of Computing
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 17:34:47 GMT

I don't understand the argument here. It seems that Orthodoxy also
allows patrilineal descent if it comes with public confirmation of
faith (before beit din, with tevila and mila as appropriate).

-- Ami


					
					-Amihood Amir (amir@cc.gatech.edu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish
From: michal@vsnmc2.cern.ch (Michal Szleper)
Subject: Re: Auschvitz and $$$ & The Ontario Press Council
Organization: European Organization for Nuclear Research, Geneva
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 09:20:00 GMT

Andrzej Zaleski writes:

( --------- a lot of stuff about Poles, Germans and Jews deleted ----------- )

>10. THE BILL for what happened between Sep. 1939, and May 1945 
>    should go to: - Germans
>                  - Polish government before 1939
                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
O co dokladnie chciales obciazyc odpowiedzialnoscia polski rzad przed
1939?  O zaglade Zydow w czasie wojny??  Nonsens.  Czy o przegrana
kampanie w 1939?  Moim zdaniem - tez nonsens.  Zgoda ze Polska byla
bardzo zle przygotowana, ale to wszak Brytyjczycy i Francuzi nie pozwalali
na przygotowanie Polski do wojny, aby - jak twierdzili - nie prowokowac
Hitlera!  Obiecywali nam wlasna pomoc w razie ataku, a co zrobili?
Umyli rece.  Obietnicy dotrzymali natomiast Sowieci - pomogli Niemcom.
Doprawdy nie widze sensu w oskarzaniu polskiego rzadu.

>                  - People who owned industry in Poland before 1939
>    In NEITHER case, Poles as a nation should be in any part kept responsible 
>    for what happened to Jews during IIWW.

A rzad i ci co posiadali przemysl, to nie *narod*?  Gdzie przebiega
granica miedzy *niewinnym narodem* a *winna reszta*?

---------------------------------------------------------------------
My opinions are my opinions. Quite predictable.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Michal~ Szleper                          "All you need is love, love,
(michal@vsnmc1.cern.ch)                   Love is all you need..."

Xref: sparky soc.culture.jewish:15766 soc.culture.polish:2558
From: jgoldber@todah.chem.utoronto.ca (Joel Goldberg)
Subject: Re: Auschvitz and $$$ & The Ontario Press Council
Organization: University of Toronto Chemistry Department
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 22:57:21 GMT

In article <1992Sep6.170355.1455@gmuvax2.gmu.edu> azaleski@gmuvax2.gmu.edu (Andrzej Zaleski) writes:
>In article <1992Sep6.092000.15733@dxcern.cern.ch> michal@vsnmc2.cern.ch (Michal Szleper) writes:
>>Czy o przegrana
>>kampanie w 1939?  Moim zdaniem - tez nonsens.  Zgoda ze Polska byla
>>bardzo zle przygotowana, ale to wszak Brytyjczycy i Francuzi nie pozwalali
>>na przygotowanie Polski do wojny, aby - jak twierdzili - nie prowokowac
>>Hitlera!  Obiecywali nam wlasna pomoc w razie ataku, a co zrobili?
>>Umyli rece.  Obietnicy dotrzymali natomiast Sowieci - pomogli Niemcom.
>>Doprawdy nie widze sensu w oskarzaniu polskiego rzadu.
>
>To wszystko prawda, ale NIE CALA. TAK, obciazam polski rzad przed 1939
>rokiem odpowiedzialnoscia za przegrana kampanie 1939. NIE zadbal polski
>rzad o wlasciwe sojusze obronne (np z Czechoslowacja), NIE przeprowadzil
>o wlasciwym czasie mobilizacji (tak, malo kto zdaje sobie z tego sprawe,
>ze 1 wrzesnia 1939 w okopach nie bylo chyba nawet polowy powolanych), 
>NIE przygotowal kraju materialnie do konfliktu, NIE wypowiedzial wojny 
>Rosji jak na nas napadla 17 wrzesnia, nawet WALCZYC DO KONCA nikt z nich 
                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   Ani margish k'dayag b'yam lo mukar.
>z malymi wyjatkami nie potrafil. A Ty nie widzisz w ich oskarzaniu 
>sensu ? Za to w oskarzaniu Francji widzisz ? Zapomniales, co Niemcy
>zrobili z Francuzami w 1940 roku ? Francuzi i Anglicy sie po prostu
>Niemcow BALI. Jak mozna bylo tego nie widziec przed 1939 rokiem ? Juz na
>aneksje Czechoslowacji nalezalo odpowiedziec natychmiast, NA PEWNO nie
>zajeciem Zaolzia. Przypuszczam, ze gdyby Pilsudski do 1939 roku dozyl w
>formie z 1926 roku, to kampania wrzesniowa nie skonczylaby sie we
>wrzesniu. Najbardziej mnie zawsze wkurzali ludzie, ktorzy umieli TYLKO
>walczyc o wladze, a jak juz ja mieli to nic z nia zrobic nie potrafili.
>Tacy wlasnie ludzie rzadzili Polska w 1939 roku. 
  Kamuvan, ein li shum musag mah katuv l'malah. Gam loh barur im echpat
  li. Kol ha sikuim hem sheh ha polanim lo mevinim oti. Nireh im yavinu
  ha inyan b'chol zot, oh sheh ekabel alfei milim al ha mishpat she
  simanti l'malah.
Organization: Bar-Ilan University Computing Center, Israel
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 09:56:15 IST
From: Hank Nussbacher <HANK@BARILVM.BITNET>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Synagogue Financing

On this matter, do any shuls charge less or more for non-members for rosh
hashona seats?  My shul just came out with this price list:

Members: 250NIS (entitles one to 2 seats)
Non-members: 100NIS per seat
All children: 10NIS

That means that a couple with 2 kids who are members pay 270NIS, whereas
the same family of 4 who walk in off the street pay only 220NIS.  I was
wondering if this was a new trend in shul financing throughout the world.

Thanks,
Hank Nussbacher
Karnei Shomron
Israel