From: mary@Cayman.COM (Mary Malmros)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Charging for training?
Date: 15 Nov 92 16:34:37 GMT
Article-I.D.: martiniq.MARY.92Nov15113437
Organization: Cayman Systems Inc., Cambridge, MA
In-reply-to: richard@paragon.folly.welly.gen.nz's message of 11 Nov 92 14:54:41 GMT


In article <721493681snx@paragon.folly.welly.gen.nz> richard@paragon.folly.welly.gen.nz (Richard Parry) writes:

   In article <25507@sybase.sybase.com> thorick@sybase.com writes:

    > I've sometimes wondered why he didn't try full-time teaching of MA
    > for a living.  One thing that comes to mind is that by NOT depending
    > on it for a living, he could do and teach exactly as he saw fit
    > without worrying about getting or retaining the number of students
    > necessary to make a living at it (though I think he usually had
    > enough students that he could have gotten by)..   i.e. he didn't
    > have to 'sell out' or commercialize (read 'cheapen' to the purist)...

   Funny you should mention that.  A lot of us folks down here in New
   Zealand recon that American martial arts are too commercialised - you
   charge for the lessons, to make a profit.  

BZZT!  Wrong, but thanks for playing.

SOME Americans who teach martial arts charge money.  Some don't.  
Of those who do, some make a profit.  Some don't.

   Some even go so far as to
   have different colour uniforms for different belt levels.  

Different color uniform or different color belt or different color 
propeller on your beanie, what's the difference?  It's just rank 
insignia.  Some systems and schools use rank insignia, some don't.
BFD.

   There's a
   whole market of different "fan" things - Body Alive (tm) poseurware, for
   instance (IMHO).

Body Alive?  What's that?

   Down here in NZ, I have yet to find anyone who teaches karate for a
   living - even a profit.  They all charge just as much as they need to -
   some months they lose a bit, others they make a bit.  When they've paid
   back the loss, they buy new gear for the club - bags, weapons, and the
   like.

Somehow I have a very hard time believing that every martial arts school
in NZ that charges money is operating on a "break exactly even" basis.

   Sorry, I'll rephrase that - there's one guy who has a chain of
   "ninjitsu" schools around the country, and he must make a killing - he
   charges enough for his classes... ;)

Seems I was right...

   We pretty much feel that if you are making money out of a love of
   something (take that however you like), you are indeed cheapening it.

Can I ask a really stupid question here?  Do you really feel that you 
can speak for all martial artists in NZ?  If not, why do you keep saying
"we"?

   My Shihan has dedicated his life to karate, without any rewards, because
   he loves it.  He also had a steady daytime job so he could eat... ;)

Well, good for him.  My jodo sensei teaches in much the same way (although
I doubt he'd use such a hyperbolic phrase as "dedicated his life to...").
As I said before, some do, some don't.

   It means he can teach karate the way karate (our style) is supposed to
   be taught.  He doesn't get flack from people wanting higher belts,
   because they are not so much paying for a service as sharing the cost of
   the dojo.  It makes for a happier dojo, wich leads to better training.

   I was indeed shocked to find out how much the average US citizen pays
   for their tuition.  

Really?  How much is that?

Somehow I don't think you have any idea about what the "average US citizen"
pays for MA training.  You have probably heard a few figures from a few
people, but I don't think you have any idea about what the "average" is.
Certainly I don't know what the "average" is, and I'd venture a guess that
I probably have more data to go on than you do.  So perhaps you have heard
some numbers that shocked you -- trust me, I have too -- but I wouldn't
generalize that to say that's what the "average" student pays.

   I train 4 nights a week, twice for one hour, and
   twice for two hours.  It costs me NZ$20 per month - that's about US$12.
   That's less that $1 an hour...  In fact, about US$0.50 an hour.  Think
   about it.  Our dojo is largish for our city (small city by US standards,
   big by ours), having about 70 paid members (including juniors, which are
   charged by the school term, or $20/term, 3 terms a year - $60 per year,
   training twice a week).  We rent a floor of a professional dance studio,
   with proper sprung wooden floors, a wall covered in floor-ceiling
   mirrors, and a nice collection of pads and bags (with hangers).  Are you
   guys paying too much or too little?  Think about it.

Okay, so let's see...70 paid members at US$12 a month is US$840.  Say half of
them are juniors, that's 35x12+35x3=US$550, if I'm not mistaken.  My sensei, 
on the other hand, is taking in a total of about US$210 a month.  He's renting
a space similar to the one that you describe.  Real estate costs in this area
are the third highest in the US, so I'm guessing he's probably paying more
than your sensei.  Oh, and by the way, he teaches two three-hour classes a 
week.

Are you paying too much or too little?  *grin*  Think about it.

   It makes you think about why the person who is teaching you is teaching
   you.  If they charge, they could be after the money, and not have your
   real interests at heart.  Someone who teaches because they want to has
   karate (insert favourite MA here) at heart.

   Comments?

Well, to summarize, I think you have a lot of valid points about 
commercialization of MA; however, your examples are flawed.  I cited 
a good counterexample to this trend that you claim of rampant overcharging
in US schools, and I'm sure that you'll find that many other US students
are paying no more than you are, or perhaps less, for memberships in
university clubs.  Many of them have opportunities to train with very
fine teachers for a very small fee.  

Perhaps the best point of your article, and what you really should
have emphasized IMHO, is that there are alternatives available to 
someone who wishes to teach martial arts without "going commercial".
But you should realize that your school has an advantage that others
of its type don't often share; that is, relatively high membership.  
My sensei has a total of four students at present...not because he's
not a good teacher, but because jodo is perhaps not as exciting or
dramatic as a lot of other martial arts.  When a prospective student
goes to see a karate class for the first time, they find it very exciting.
They get all charged up and are willing to give it a try.  The "hard 
long boring practice" aspect of it is not so apparent to them at first.
They see people doing all kinds of exciting things, and they want to
try too.  In contrast, when a prospective student comes to see one 
of our jo classes, the "hard long boring practice" aspect is very 
apparent, and the really exciting aspects of the art are too subtle
to be recognized by a non-martial artist.  Of ten people who take the
trouble to come and watch our classes, perhaps one will join.  Of the
ones who join, perhaps one in three or four will stay with it long
enough to learn to like it.  So our membership stays low.  A lot of 
people love to teach, but not many can afford to do so under those
circumstances.
--
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 Mary Malmros     | Cayman Systems Inc, 26 Landsdowne St, Cambridge, MA 02139
 mary@cayman.com  | Phone 617-494-1999  Fax 617-494-5167  AppleLink CAYMAN.TECH
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts