From: thornley@nano.cs.umn.edu (David H. Thornley)
Newsgroups: rec.games.board
Subject: Re: Europa
Date: 28 Aug 92 21:16:42 GMT
Organization: University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, CSci dept.

In article <92241.090838CDF1@psuvm.psu.edu> CDF1@psuvm.psu.edu (Carl Fago) writes:
>I have also gotten a couple of email replies and it would seem that Europa
>is just plain incomplete and maybe just another rehash of SPI's War in the
>East and War in the West.  So if Europa isn't the definitive small scale
>war against Germany game, then what would be recommended?
>
Europa is incomplete as a simulation of the entire war.  People are working
on extending it, but don't hold your breath.  The design of Europa games so
far has avoided economics and naval action as much as possible, and these
will be important factors in Grand Europa.

Actually, the SPI games are rehashes of Europa - War in the East was
inspired by Drang Nach Osten.  WitE went through one revision, WitW didn't,
but the Europa system has been thoroughly revised over the years.  I still
don't know of a system better in all respects.

>I am looking for something that is more detailed than WiF and maybe a little
>less than WiE/WiW.
>
The Europa games are much more detailed than WiE.  War in Europe had generic
air points and interchangeable divisions (i.e., all U.S. and CW infantry
divisions are 8-10s).  Europa has counters representing specific aircraft
based in specific hexes, lots of regiments and brigades, and rules to handle
them.  If you thought War in Europe was a bit much to handle, you might
like some of the smaller Europa games but will not like the larger ones.

>I see Europa as trying to be a game _system_ with varying theatres of operation
>such that I don't have to fill up a garage with maps to play one game but
>can link theatre scenarios together in a "campaign game" of sorts.
>
Europa is a collection of games on WWII campaigns, all using the same basic
rules and similar (in some cases, interchangeable) counters.  Nobody official
has been trying to link separate games together, although this is easy enough
to do yourself.  The problem with trying to link games together into a
campaign game of sorts and playing them sequentially is that the war didn't
quite work that way, and so if you do want to play Grand Europa (if it ever
appears) you will need the garage for the maps.

>This is the style I am looking for but, unfortunately, Europa is not complete
>and the promises of game companies are, in my experience, worth about as
>much as the hot air they are made of.
>
Grand Europa is not complete, there are plenty of individual games out there.
While War in Europe was designed as two games initially, with scenarios,
Europa has gone in the other direction.  The people working on Europa are
pretty dedicated to it, and they will produce Grand Europa if the idea is
ever going to fly; unfortunately, I'm not convinced it can.

>It seems that all the pieces are out there, just that no one has managed to
>put them all together.
>
All the pieces of what?  You can find games on any individual campaign or on
the whole ETO or whole war, but what do you mean by putting them all
together?  You can't take France '40, Narvik, Their Finest Hour, Russian
Front, Anzio, Western Desert/Torch, War at Sea, and D-Day together and
get any sort of coherent whole.  All the games covering the ETO have been
designed that way (or at least in only two pieces); the Europa system is
the only one taking the other approach and it's not there.

DHT
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