HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: toddl@ecs.comm.mot.com (DQ582 Todd Leigh)
Subject: Re: Wanted: Defense of Whitewater Canoeing
Organization: trunking_fixed
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 14:22:17 GMT
Summary: My $.02
Keywords: Big Water

Like the summary says, I just wanna put in my two cents...

I'm not a whitewater canoeist, I'm a kayaker, but I've seen at least one
place where a canoe seemed to have an advantage over a kayak, and that was
in BIG water.  I mean BIG water.  100000 cfs in the Niagara Gorge on a 
promotional video for Whitesell Canoes.  With BIG exploding waves 
everywhere, the kayakers were just getting blown over and rolling
constantly.  The canoes, with more volume (a probably some bias from the
canoe company shooting the video) seemed to handle these conditions better.
And the canoeists were excellent.  In the same video, they ran the Upper
Yough.

This seems to jive with my experience, watching OC-1ers handling big waves
with a lot more ease than I felt in my Dancer.

Incidentally, my dad likes the open canoe because when it's upside-down and
he's setting up to roll, he can lean forward and BREATH.  He can roll an
canoe.

In any case, it's good to have an OC-1er in the group, because they can 
carry a bunch of good stuff that I have trouble fitting behind my seat.

Have fun.



-- 
Todd Leigh                Motorola Inc.      Opinions expressed here are
toddl@ecs.comm.mot.com    Schaumburg, IL     not those of "THE MANAGEMENT"
Facts all come with point of view. Facts don't do what I want them to.
                                           - Talking Heads
From: babineau@bnr.ca (Michael Babineau)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Choosing a SeaKayak: Spectrum S?
Date: 14 Apr 92 16:09:55 GMT
Reply-To: babineau@bmerh812.BNR.CA
Distribution: na
Organization: BNR Ottawa, DMS Software Design

In article <kuhpktINN4tp@paris>, aem@paris.cs.miami.edu (a.e.mossberg) writes:
|> 
|> I recently bought a Naiad, which is a british design by Derek
|> Hutchinson. It is 17' by 22" with no skeg, small cockpit, and
|> a small front hatch and large rear one. It's a very nice boat,
|> although several times out in the wind I wish I had a skeg to
|> help me keep a straight course. Proabably just my limited ability.
|> I believe the cost was in the $1500 range.

If you are looking at spending > $1000, you might also look at the 
Current Designs Pachina. This is a beautiful little boat designed primarily 
as a daytripper/overnighter. Like its big brother the Solstice, it is very
sleek, fast and quite stable. You will pay more because of the fiberglass
(or optionally fiberglass/kevlar) but its certainly worth it. 
Current Designs, in my opinion, make some of the best fiberglass Sea 
Kayaks available. Their attention to detail is second to none.

-- 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
|Michael Babineau           | BITNET: babineau@BNR.CA                    |
|Bell Northern Research Ltd.| UUCP  : ..!uunet!bnrgate!bmerh812!babineau |
|Ottawa, ON. CANADA         |         ..!psuvax!BNR.CA.bitnet!babineau   |
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: toddl@ecs.comm.mot.com (DQ582 Todd Leigh)
Subject: Re: Wanted: Defense of Rafting
Organization: trunking_fixed
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 14:37:18 GMT
Summary: Another $.02 (boy this is getting expensive)
Keywords: two good reasons

Reason #1 for rafters - rolling for beers to drink at the takeout.

Typical dialogue #1 (obvious coolers present) :

Rafter: "Can you roll that thing?"

Kayaker: "I'll do it for a beer."

Rafter: "Okay!"

Typical dialogue #2 (obviously no coolers present) :

Rafter: "Roll over!"

Kayaker: "What do I look like, a dog?"

Reason #2 for rafters - kayaking women don't wear bikinis.

Typical dialogue #3 (women in bikinis in raft) :

Bikini-clad-woman rafter: "Would you roll for us?"

Male Kayaker: "Sure."

My girlfriend always gets mad at me when I do that.

Rafters... Always good to have around, unless they run you over.

-- 
Todd Leigh                Motorola Inc.      Opinions expressed here are
toddl@ecs.comm.mot.com    Schaumburg, IL     not those of "THE MANAGEMENT"
Facts all come with point of view. Facts don't do what I want them to.
                                           - Talking Heads
From: scs8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Sebastian C Sears)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Wanted: Defense of Rafting
Date: 8 Apr 92 05:14:28 GMT
Reply-To: scs8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Sebastian C Sears)
Distribution: na
Organization: Columbia University

In article <ku4md0INNqeb@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> tut@cairo.Eng.Sun.COM (Bill "Bill" Tuthill) writes:
>I agree with you.  Years ago I tried a Dancer, but have such long legs
>that it made me feel extremely claustrophobic.  So I took up rafting.
	[stuff allowed to fall overboard and not pulled back in :-)]
>Kayakers and rafters usually take a different pace, so are best kept
>separate.  But kayakers sometimes need rafters to carry gear, whereas
>rafters never really need kayakers.

	I'm trying to play both sides here, as I am an avid kayaker and a raft
	guide. I agreed with all the reasons etc. above, but had to comment
	that I have had rafters need my help when I'm kayaking, because I could
	run rescue while the raft finished the rapid.

	Kayaks are much more manouverable and can wait in eddies halfway down
	rapids to pick up stray swimmers, something a raft can't usually do.
	On our class IV+ run last season, my boss had a kayaker run along with
	all the single raft trips (i.e. if there's only one raft) running 
	safety.

	As long as the kayaker is competent, he is concentrating solely on
	taking care of the swimmer, while a raft guide has to take care of the
	other seven people in  his boat too...

	Just trying to confuse the issue... (look where I'm from, no wonder I'm
	confusing...)

=Stanley, Idaho===============Sea-Bass Sears====================New York City=
   o  1979 Yamaha XS750|Perception      )    Corsica|     |       1985  Toyota
 _/\_>       Just ride!|->Hey,short  o /  new boat<-||~~~~~~\___       4Runner
O,> /O   e-mail: scs8@ |  ~^~^ (====<\/====) ^~^    ||_--____--_)   Just about
cunixb.cc.columbia.edu |Just  ~^~^~^ / ^~^~^  kayak!|  ()    () anything else!
   Just because you're paranoid, don't mean they're not after you -- Nirvana
==============================-->DoD #0516<--=================================
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: chris@chinook.atd.ucar.edu (Chris Webster)
Subject: Re: Wanted: Defense of Whitewater Canoeing
Reply-To: chris@chinook.atd.ucar.edu
Organization: Research Aviation Facility, NCAR, Boulder, CO
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 17:26:32 GMT

In article 702835392@beagle, schultz@boulder.Colorado.EDU (Dennis Schultz) writes:
>lee@wang.com (Lee Story) writes:
>
>
>
>>What _I_ don't understand (maybe Bill or someone can tell me) is why
>>anyone would run whitewater in a RAFT.  
>
>	Because they are the ONLY real whitewater boat, not some cheap
>plastic toy boat.  When a kayaker approaches any significant drop, he
>invariably scurries to shore like some little water flea.  After several
>minutes of "soul searching", he either drags his boat along shore like the
>worthless piece of luggage it is, or runs the "cheat" route.  On the other
>hand, rafts run any type of water up to and including classV-VI.  They
>access the situation from the middle of the river, make the appropriate
>maneuvers, and conquer all obstacles.  Then they pull over and drink a
>beer, several if they happen to be in the company of worthless kayakers.
>Rafts are real boats, not some cheap piece of molded plastic you find in
>a crackerjack box!  They run any kind of water and are self-sufficient
>for indefinite periods of time.  Rafts run right down the middle of all
>whitewater, not avoiding it like the toy-boaters.  Personally, I don't
>start RAFTING Gore til it gets above 4000cfs, Cross Mountain til it gets
>above 10,000 cfs, and Pine Creek and the Poudre Narrows until they get
>above 4ft.
>-Dennis
>


This means you won't mind joining us to run ALL of Gore at 4000
in a Kayak this year?  Or will you whimp out and take the Queen Mary?

--Chris
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: George Flexman <sl264050@silver.ucs.indiana.edu>
Subject: Re: Wanted: Defense of Whitewater Canoeing, Rafting, etc.
Organization: Indiana University
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 13:56:37 -0500

Lee Story writes:
	Nawwwww.  We drive at least 15 hours to W.Va. or Ktucky from New
	England ...

A 15 hour drive certainly sucks, but you must have some whitewater a 
little closer.  Alas, we do not.  If only we could move Ohio somewhere more
convenient, off the coast of California seems like a good place for it.  I'm 
sure no one would object. "Why, oh why oh why oh, why did I drive into Ohio?"

	Sheet, nobody wears more than swim trunks and a Burt Reynolds 	
	mask on Section IV, unless they're a wimp.  (You should see Risa
	Calloway or Carla Garrison in a Burt Reynolds mask!)  There's even a
	famous photo of Jimmy Carter running in a Grumman tandem without 
	helmet, without bags, and with a guide with no chicken-floater---
	um---vest.  'Course Jimmy has one on---nobody's claimin' he's not a
	wimp.

Well, that certainly explains some of the strange looking people I've seen
on section IV.  I don't know Ms.s Calloway or Garrison so I'll have to take
your word for it.  The famous picture you mention was taken back in the 
stone age of white-water paddling.  (It is, in fact, Bull Sluice, on
section III.)  In those days, helmets were uncommon and most people in 
open boats who had extra flotation used an inner-tube, not bags, and many
people used no extra floatation.  This is back when the first edition of 
wild water West Virginia (known to my paddlemates as the Gospel 
according to Burrell and Davidson, before Burrell gave up the sport 
because it got too crowded) said, about Iron Ring on the Gauley, something 
like "It cannot be lined, it cannot be snuck, it is one hell of a carry over 
house sized boulders, so you might as well run it."  The second and third 
editions do not have this line.  It was also back when crazy people, like 
Walt Blackadauer who later drowned doing something equally stupid, were 
running Ohiopyle Falls in an open boat.  Although I must say that Ohiopyle 
Falls is one of those rapids that a friend describes as "best run in an open 
boat so you can jump out faster."  Oh, the good old days.
   
I'll tell you the tale of One Lung Bob another time, right now I'm late for 
class.

	Sure this is silly, but I'm leaving for a week in W.Va in four days 	
	(hide yer shotguns and load yer wimmin), and it's awfully hard to 	
	concentrate on work.

I'd kill for a week in WV about now.  The Hoosier Canoe Club has a trip 
going to NC this weekend, but I have a major Topology assignment that has 
to be done if I want to get my MA.  The best I can look forward to, for a 
month at least, is Monday night paddling on Lake Lemon.  Hardly thrilling.
Have a good trip, watch out for those "wild-woods flowers," I've seen some
incredibly beautiful locals in Middle-of-Nowhere, Tenn.
Dip a paddle in the river for me.

See you on the river.

--George Flexman

"The beet is the most intense of vegetables."
		--Tom Robbins
From: eda0@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (ERIC DEAN ASPNES)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Wanted: Dancer + misc. b.s.
Date: 13 Apr 92 20:53:37 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

I would like to buy a Dancer and all the other shit i.e. (spray skirt, paddle,
etc.) or just a Dancer or just the shit or even a comperable boat.  Also if
anyone has any info. about how to get the best deal on a dancer or copm. boat
please write or post.

        thanks Eric.

P.S. Once again if anyone has any info. about paddle clubs in the Minnesota
area or if you know about good paddling in the area I would be greatful.
From: gt4302c@prism.gatech.EDU (THOMSEN,AXEL)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: what kayak should I get?
Date: 14 Apr 92 13:28:11 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology

Nobody has brought up the quality of the plastic from the different
manufacturers. In my experience with the various boats from
Perception, Prijon, Dagger and Wavesport (all owned by our outdoor club)
the Prijons hold up the best. I've seen busted Corsicas and Lazers (the
nose split open after a close encounter with a rock) and I've seen worn 
out Perception boats (worn through underneath the seat). Daggers plastic
seems to be pretty soft, too.

Axel Thomsen
Preserve Americas free flowing rivers!
-- 
THOMSEN,AXEL
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp:	  ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!gt4302c
Internet: gt4302c@prism.gatech.edu
From: aem@paris.cs.miami.edu (a.e.mossberg)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: what kayak should I get?
Date: 15 Apr 92 15:08:44 GMT
Reply-To: aem@paris.cs.miami.edu
Distribution: usa
Organization: Dept. of Mathematics & Computer Science, University of Miami
NNTP-Posting-Host: paris.cs.miami.edu


What I was told re differences between fiberglass and plastic (roto molded)
kayaks:

Fiberglass		Plastic

more rigid, keeps	warps over time,
straight keel		deck often collapses during rescues

stonger material,	weaker material,
lighter weight		heavier

less susceptible	scratches easy,
to damage, but more	repairs easy, (with iron)
difficult to fix

longer life		shorter life

more expensive		less expensive
($1000-$2000 		(many under $1000)
common)

Remember, however, I learned these from salesmen - the good points on
each by the salesman who wanted to sell that one, and the bad points
about each from the salesman selling the other!

It sounds like kevlar is probably the best material, but also most
expensive.

aem, a beginner.

-- 
a.e.mossberg   -   aem@paris.cs.miami.edu   -   aem@umiami.bitnet
University of Miami Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
From: rsk@aspen.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Nice in theory, better in practice...
Date: 16 Apr 92 11:16:15 GMT
Organization: Cardiothoracic Imaging Research Center

In article <1992Apr16.000931.17755@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM> smoak@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Wilson Smoak) writes:
>Even if you're not running anything like the Green, being able
>to catch eddies an rolling are extremely valuable skills.  A good strong
>brace is equally valuable.

I'll give that an enthusiastic second.  I took a nasty swim in Bryson's
Hole on the Lower Yough last year because I had a weak brace and blew
the roll.  I plan to go back and try that section again -- but not until
I have as bombproof a roll as I can develop (by practicing in somewhat
more forgiving spots).

One way to sharpen your river-running skills is to participate in some
of the citizen's slalom races that are held around the country.  On the
river, when you come into an eddy too low, it's no big deal; in a slalom,
you wind up nowhere near the gate.  This kind of immediate, clear feedback
seems to help a lot of people that I've paddled with.  Most slaloms have
classes for cruiser-type plastic boats (and some have squirt classes), and
the entry fees are usually in the $5-$10 range.  All the ones I've been
to so far were saturated with an atmosphere of friendly competition, with
boaters cheering for each other and exchanging tips on how to make
the harder gates.
--

---Rsk
rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu
From: chris@chinook.atd.ucar.edu (Chris Webster)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Defense of Whitewater Rafting, was Canoeing
Date: 7 Apr 92 22:15:02 GMT
Article-I.D.: ncar.1992Apr7.221502.7540
Reply-To: chris@chinook.atd.ucar.edu
Organization: Research Aviation Facility, NCAR, Boulder, CO


For multi-day trips rafts are great.  However falling out of a raft in
Cherry Creek or Gore Canyon is not on the top of my list.

--Chris
From: kristian@tartarus.uchicago.edu
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Artificial whitewater course in South Bend IN
Date: 14 Apr 92 20:11:12 GMT
Reply-To: kristian@tartarus.uchicago.edu ()
Distribution: usa
Organization: U. Chicago Computer Science Dept.

Paddlers-

	Can anyone give me information on the Artificial course in
South Bend Indiana?  I understand there is a dam of some sort where
they have diverted the water and built a small course that is open to
the public. Does anyone have details on who runs it? (state, city?)
Are there any boat outfitters in the area?

	Is anyone out there associated with the Notre Dame
outdoors/kayak club?  I am organizing a trip for the U. Chicago
Outdoor Adventure club. 

	Does anybody know of good overnight canoe runs within 150
miles of Chicago?  Outfitters?  We are, unfortunately, boatless

Kristian
From: lee@wang.com (Lee Story)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: New Corsica
Date: 9 Apr 92 16:38:48 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Wang Laboratories, Inc.
Cc: scs8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu

In article <1992Apr8.213642.7085@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> scs8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Sebastian C Sears) writes:

	   Just a review for anyone who is wondering about this boat. 
       [extensive comments on a Corsica]

Thanks for the notes...only a couple of questions if you'd be so
kind:  Were your comments about the original Corsica (fairly short but
high volume), the new Matrix (fairly short, medium volume), or the
Corsica S (about 6" shorter than the Matrix, a bit lower volume)?
Also (extra credit:) how much do you weigh?

I'm really interested, because I punched a hole in the bottom of my
Dancer last weekend (rebar running a small dam), and am looking for a
new creek/play boat, on the assumption that a 4"-wide p-tex candle
patch over a re-flattened-out 2" hole won't hold up to serious steep
creeking.  So far, both the smaller Corsicas (S and Matrix) look like
candidates, though I've heard that the S at least is really pokey.
Maybe there's really no choice if you're going for a Euro-style creek
boat, but I've gotten rather used to a Vampire, which moves much
faster than my Dancer, and have heard several rumors that the Corsicas
are much slower still.  The Dagger Crossfire I tried was quick both
over-the-water and in turning, compared to the Dancer.  Maybe I'll try
their new Freefall---but everyone reports that the Corsicas have quite
a bit of edge---and the Matrix looks like it has more than the rest of
the line---and I like that.

Any other reports?
--

------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Let your mind go, and your body will follow.
                   _L.A._Story_
------------------------------------------------------------------------
     (^^above part of .sig stolen, but heck, it's my name^^)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Lee Story (lee@wang.com) Wang Laboratories, Inc.
              (Merrimack Valley Paddlers)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rsk@aspen.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Thoreau's Portage Whitewater Slalom
Date: 6 Apr 92 21:16:58 GMT
Article-I.D.: netnews.72949
Organization: Cardiothoracic Imaging Research Center

This is an A/B race sanctioned by the ACA.  It will be held Saturday,
April 11 on the Concord River at Lowell, Massachusetts.  Classes
include C-1, C-1W, K-1W, K-1s, C-2, C-2W, and C-2M.  I'm under the
impression that this race is held in class III/IV water, but I'm
not familiar with the river.

Further info, directions, entry forms, etc.: Lowell Parks and
Conservation Trust, PO Box 7162, Lowell, MA 01852; ph# (508) 459-9629.
Preregistration (due 4/8) is $10; da-of-race registration is $15.
--

---Rsk
rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu
From: root@ute.Columbia.NCR.COM
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Southeastern Rivers
Date: 10 Apr 92 16:10:15 GMT
Organization: NCR Corp, E&M-Columbia, Columbia, SC

In article <35026@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU> elessar writes:
> Hi!  This summer I'm planning to go rafting and/or kayaking in the southeast
> (meaning within say, 3 hours drive of Atlanta).  As far as rafting, I feel
> confident of my abilities to captain a raft in up to class IV, but I'd like to
> have a book of some sort that will warn me ahead of time of particularly nasty
> sections so that I can raft rivers that I don't know by memory without risking
> sending everyone swimming because I went down the wrong side.  Are there
> any such publications?

The book "Appalachian Whitewater, Volume I" by Benner, Nealey, et al.
describes the more popular rivers near Atlanta.  (Email me if you need
me to look up info on the publisher.)

Be warned that there are a few problems with this book, however:

  1. It is a compilation of river descriptions from other southeastern
     guide books.  Because different rivers are described by different
     authors, there are inconsistencies in the ratings of rapids.

  2. The book is pretty old.  Equipment and technique have improved since
     the book was written, and in some cases (e.g. the bridge pillar that
     used to be below Hell Hole on the Ocoee) the rivers have changed.

  3. Most of the authors seem to be primarily open boaters.  Since the
     descriptions were written years ago before people were commonly
     rolling open canoes and running Class V+, the ratings are often
     inflated by at least one grade.  (Before you take this as a general
     rule, see #1 above!)  They also tend to tell you to avoid the more
     fun parts of the rivers (by sneaking or portaging).

BTW, rumor has it that Bob Benner's son David is updating Bob's "Carolina
Whitewater."  David is into steep creeks, so the new edition should have
lots of interesting info.  Anyone able to confirm this?

> In regard to kayaking, I'd like to learn.  Does anyone know of any reasonably
> inexpensive outfitters and/or schools in the southeast?

The NOC (Nantahala Outdoor Center; area code 704 ask for Bryson City) is
very good, but they may be expensive.  There are also lots of universities
and paddling clubs that offer lessons.

Barry Shelton
barry@ute.columbiasc.ncr.com

I speak only for myself; I do not speak for my employer.
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: chris@chinook.atd.ucar.edu (Chris Webster)
Subject: Re: Defense of Whitewater Rafting, was Cano
Reply-To: chris@chinook.atd.ucar.edu
Organization: Research Aviation Facility, NCAR, Boulder, CO
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 17:01:06 GMT


In article 2725@master.CNA.TEK.COM, mikeq@saab.CNA.TEK.COM (Mike Quigley) writes:
>>For multi-day trips rafts are great.
>
>Oh, I dunno. Me and my girlfriend regularly take weeklong trips in 2-person
>inflatable kayaks (1 each)....
>
>I can't understand why anyone would want to row a barge, er, raft.
>
>Mike


Look whose calling the kettle black.  ;-)

--Chris