From: mob@apollo.HP.COM 
Subject: Re: AA beliefs?
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 22:17:07 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Chelmsford, MA

In article <1992Sep9.214224.28981@zip.eecs.umich.edu>, carnes@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Richard Carnes) writes:
|> >O Heart Dancer,
|> >  ..that is one of the reasons why _we_ are careful never to call
|> >another person alcoholic!
|> 
|> Well, I wonder what would happen if I went to an AA meeting and stood
|> up and said, "Hi, my name is Richard, I have a moderate drinking
|> problem but I'm not an alcoholic."  Possibly in *your* group this
|> statement wouldn't raise any eyebrows, and there would be no
|> pressures, spoken or unspoken, subtle or unsubtle, on me to label
|> myself as an alcoholic, but I think that such a group would be
|> unusual.

	I don't believe that it's all that unusual.  At least not in my
	neck of the woods.  It isn't for me to judge whether someone else
	has a problem and what that problem is.  I'm there to lend a hand
	if someone feels that I can be of service to them.

	In general, I believe that you find exactly what you expect to
	find.  I have an uncanny knack of going into a situation with a
	particular attitude and then being upset that other people react
	to me in kind.  If you look for pressures, then you'll undoubtedly
	find pressures.  If you have an open mind, then your interpretation
	of the events may be quite different.

|> 
|> This is AA-speak, Jim.  Hardly anybody today would define "alcoholic"
|> in such a restrictive way.  It would mean, for example, that a person
|> who had developed a physical dependency on alcohol could not be
|> considered an alcoholic if he managed to quit on his own.
|> 
|> In any case, how we define "alcoholism" is immaterial to Heart
|> Dancer's point.  I understood her to say that she repetitively drank
|> in such as way as to cause physical, psychological or social harm to
|> herself or others, and that she learned to moderate and control her
|> drinking without entering a formal treatment program.  

	One only has to enter almost any college dorm on a weekend to
	find many of the inhabitants drinking to the point where they
	are of harm to themselves and others.  Some of these students
	may end up alcoholics, some of them may just "grow out of it".

	Once someone has formed a dependency on a substance, physical
	or psychological, it becomes harder to just stop using it.  I
	believe that only persons who require "assistance" from someone
	or something else to stop their dependency can be qualified as
	an alcoholic or addict.  If I remember correctly, Heart Dancer
	talked about doing a whole boat load of work on herself that
	helped to free her from her dependency on alcohol.  I consider
	this to be "assistance".
	 
|> I wonder how
|> things would have turned out if she had attended AA meetings and was
|> talked into believing that she had an incurable disease, that she was
|> powerless over alcohol, that the AA program was the only way to
|> control the disease, and that she had to abstain from alcohol for the
|> rest of her life.
|> 
	I suspect that she would have abstained from alcohol.  I sometimes
	wonder why anyone who themselves did not have a dependency on alc-
	ohol would think that not being able to drink "forever" is some 
	sort of prison sentence.  I abstain from consuming prune juice,
	but noone would think anything of that.

	I am not on a soapbox for AA, but I find it difficult to believe
	that AA is harming anyone.  If you come to me for help and I say
	to you - "this is how I did it" and you say - "nope, that won't
	work for me", what else can I do but to wish you well on your
	own journey?  I am not a doctor, lawyer, counselor, etc.  I don't
	have anything to offer but my own experience.  By the same line
	of thought, if you come to AA for help and AA says - "this is how
	we do it" and you say - "nope, that won't work for me", then AA
	is likely to say - "well, I thought I was different too, so maybe
	you should go out and do some more drinking.  You're not ready
	yet".  The person receiving this advice, is just as free to ignore
	this advice as he was when deciding the AA way wouldn't work for
	him.  (AA in this paragraph is meant to be AA the program, not any
	individual practicing the program.)

	Don't forget that many members of AA are "not the cream of the crop"
	(as my sponsor says).  You can't expect sainthood, absolute faultless
	logic, the ability to diagnose someone elses problems, etc. from ANY
	individual.  What they say around here is that "AA's are only qualified
	to tell you about THEIR OWN experience, strength and hope.  Period, not
	about what you should do or whether you have a problem, NOTHING".  If you
	need expert guidance or diagnosis, then PLEASE seek out the appropriate
	paid expert for that. (AA's in this paragraph is meant to be individuals
	who are practicing the program.)

	I don't believe that AA is the answer for everyone.  It can be a very
	tough program.  One must whole-heartedly practice what those before
	us have practiced to obtain the freedom and growth.  I believe that
	there are other ways of obtaining the freedom and growth, but have
	not personally experienced them, so I don't recommend them.  I also
	don't *know* that I *need* to abstain from alcohol for the rest of 
	my life.  What I do know is that I have seen *many* folks who thought
	that they didn't need to abstain from alcohol who end up getting in a
	whole heap of pain and trouble.  Worse than their worst day out there
	before abstaining from alcohol.  This is a good indicator for me that
	it might work the same way for me if I decided to try it.  But, for
	me, the biggest thing is what I mentioned 3 paragraphs ago - where is
	the hardship?  What am I missing out on by abstaining from alcohol?
	In my experience, absolutely nothing.  My life is much fuller and
	much more meaningful since I began abstaining from alcohol.  There is
	nothing that I can't do - except take a drink.  This isn't my idea,
	it too comes from the Big Book.  Why in the world would I even think
	of taking a drink?  What would a drink change?  If I need it "enjoy
	myself more" or to "loosen up" or to be able to talk to others or to
	get through a painful experience, then maybe just maybe I have a bit
	of a problem.  

	Peace,

	Mary