HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mlloyd@westmark.Stanford.EDU (Mike Lloyd)
Subject: Re: Bisexual libertariansn ear
Organization: DSO, Stanford University
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 92 19:30:47 GMT

datepper@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Aaron Tepper) writes:
: Interesting that Steve Conley pointed out that a lot of bisexuals are
: libertarians. I am one myself--I've got the card and everything! Could
: this be a trend?

Hmm.  Well, maybe somebody (Steve?) might feel there are grounds for
seeing this in the larger bisexual network.  For reasons that combine
statistics and prejudice (often the same thing), I'd say it's much more
likely that the trend is seen in electronically-connected bisexuals.
It's my belief that there are more libertarians on the net than in the
population at large.

It used to be said that if you're not a socialist at 21, you have no
heart.  I liked it when that was true.  Now it seems that one has to get
into libertarianism instead.

: David A. Tepper
: I'm too sexy for meiosis.

And I'm too sexy for mitosis.  So sexy it hurts (due to all the cells
getting backlogged in the G2 rest state).

hugs regardless
Mike, who has no faith in human nature to base libertarian beliefs on.
-- 
Mike Lloyd, B0/1 h- f- t w- c g+ k+ s m- e? |"Bloody nose and burning eyes
      Retro-hippy, music nut, bi and        | Raised in laughter to the skies"
          backrubber of devotion            |     - Bruce Cockburn
    "It's only knock and knowall, but I like it" - Genesis (the first one)
From: mlloyd@castle.ed.ac.uk (M Lloyd)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Alan Culloch Contact??
Date: 6 Nov 92 00:09:52 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

Is anyone in or near Boston still in touch with Alan Culloch, our own
wanderly soc.bi cutie?  I've now failed twice to get in touch with him -
he leaves a phone message for me, and by the time I call back,
he's checked out from that hotel!

On the assumption that he won't be on this coast a whole lot longer,
I'd appreciate e-contact with anyone who knows where he is now, or
how I can get in touch with him.

Thanks'n'hugs
Mike, whose regular newssite is ga-ga just now
-- 
Mike Lloyd, B0/1 h- f- t w- c g+ k+ s m- e? |"Bloody nose and burning eyes
      Retro-hippy, music nut, bi and        | Raised in laughter to the skies"
          backrubber of devotion            |     - Bruce Cockburn
    "It's only knock and knowall, but I like it" - Genesis (the first one)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: rhorn@csws8.ic.sunysb.edu (Robb)
Subject: wombats
Originator: rhorn@csws8.ic.sunysb.edu
Keywords: wombat, touch
Organization: SUNY at Stony Brook where no one gets an education!
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 05:21:18 GMT






  Would you like to touch my wombat?






-- 
rhorn@ic.sunysb.edu         Never choose a college because it has a duckpond.
$@`                                             Send me hate mail, I love it.
From: winsor@geek.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (js)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: my roomie
Date: 13 Nov 1992 00:50:12 GMT
Organization: Texas Instruments Incorporated, Austin
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: geek.teng.ppd.ti.com

In article <BxMFyt.F45@news.udel.edu>, seamus@ravel.udel.edu (James G Dilmore) writes:
|> In article <1992Nov10.233242.22537@midway.uchicago.edu> orc@amber.uchicago.edu writes:
|> >
|> >    And people say *I'm* an e-slut ;-)
|> >
|> O please teach me the meaning of eslut.
|> pant pant.:>

Bark like a dog for me!

|> >
|> >    Experimental verification can be arranged for that, you know. 
|> >It's quite simple and painless, if slightly messy.
|> >
|> You tease.  You have to bring up pain and then you tell me I can't have it.
|> You are trully mean.  As for the empirical evidence, if you do come down
|> Princeton way, Delaware is just a stone throw away. :>

Care for permanent teeth mark on selected body parts?

|> >               ____
|> > david parsons \bi/ shy and demure, but still shameless, e-slut
|> >                \/
|> Shy? Demure?  I just don't see it but hey maybe I'm missing something.
|> 
|> From the man who is just bubbling with liberation(you were right muffy)

Very Evident.  And Very Fun, Indeed. REAL e-sluts don't advertise.  they don't 
*have* to.


*hugs-n-gropes*

js
.sig == "just learning the fine art of teasing"
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: sconley@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Stephen M Conley)
Subject: Re: New Age Androgynous Bisexuals...
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 02:31:34 GMT

[stuff deleted]
>...This group has lost its sense of humour and sense of proportion.

Well, do I hear a CFV for soc.bi.anarchocapitalist.pagan-astrologers?
:-) :-) :-)

Steve
sconley@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Bisexual Anarchocapitalist Industrial Fiend Ohioan
Pagan Astrologer in Training
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: jcarroll@bach.udel.edu (Royal J Carroll)
Subject: Re: my roomie
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 18:34:11 GMT

In article <BxIsM7.4q6@news.udel.edu> seamus@ravel.udel.edu (James G Dilmore) writes:
>In article <1992Nov7.221615.4321@leland.Stanford.EDU> mlloyd@westmark.Stanford.EDU (Mike Lloyd) writes:
>>latarra@camelot.bradley.edu (Lisa Ehren) writes:
>
>Hey there. Congratulations.  E-hugs.  (and yes before anyone has to ask
>I am/was a muffin.  A big creme filled muffin.  As you are reading this
>I am exploding all over you.:>
>Well, I guess that means that I will just have to lick it off.
>*slurp* *lick* *lick* *lick*
>There all better.:> (Remember: the tongue is mightier than the sword:)
>
He posted! He posted!  Yea!  Now everybody gets to know how wonderful he
is!  :-)
After waiting so long to pounce, my legs have cramped up!  Guess I'll
just have to slink on over...
*HUG* 

>>: 
>>: <btw, I'm bisexual...:)>
>>
>
>I don't know if I am, but hey I am attracted to both sexes?
>Doing something is a completely different thing:>  I don't think that 
>I am quite ready for that.  
>
Self-identification does not need to depend on experiences.  More
important is how you feel.

>>
>
>Thank you to everyone who helped make this possible:
>*wink* to Muffy (Hey I learned vi!!!!)
>*wink* to Mike
>*a very special wink* to James who has been technical advisor the whole
>time.
>
And a sly wink back.

>A note to James and the Muffins from Delaware(I know you are *out* there):
>I am not ready to come out in DE.  Actually I have determined that I 
>won't.  It is turning into Fag-bashing capital USA with the KKK and
>the whole Spiel.  This is just too scary.
>
I don't know about the capital, but definitately a runner-up (and
dishonorable mention).  Which is why I'm very low-profile myself.

>again,  Cheery hellos to the hippest newsgroup on the net
>
>Jim. (seamus@brahms.udel.edu)
>-- 
>Jim Dilmore - seamus@brahms.udel.edu    
>               SILENCE = DEATH    
>This is not a black and white world,
>to be alive I believe the colors must be swirled- Live.~

-James

-- 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
But if some one really cared/well they'd take the time to spare
A moment to try and understand/another one's despair
-Axl Rose, "Breakdown"-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=jcarroll@brahms.udel.edu-
From: was1+@pitt.edu (Scott A Wayne)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: San Diego, CA
Date: 10 Nov 92 11:15:52 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh


	Hello,
		My name is Wayne and I am 20 years old.  My lover and I will
be traveling to San Diego this Decmeber for a week.  he will be 21 at the
time, but I will still be 20.  I would appreciate it if anyone could send me
some information on the gay scene in San Diego (ie. Gay Dance Clubs and Gay
Restaurants).  You could either send me direct e-mail (preferred) at
was1+@pitt.edu or post a response to this message here.  Thank you very
much.

						Sincerely,

						Wayne Scott
-- 
 * Wayne A. Scott            !            was1+@pitt.edu              *
 * Student Programmer        !         was1@vms.cis.pitt.edu          *
 * Suthreland Computing Lab  !     Home Phone:  (412) 383 - 9199      *
 * University of Pittsburgh  !     Work Phone:  (412) 624 - 7357      *
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: cjmchale@dsg.cs.tcd.ie (Ciaran McHale)
Subject: Re: PC
Organization: DSG, Dept. of Computer Science, Trinity College Dublin
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 14:43:22 GMT

While browsing through a local bookshop yesterday I saw a book of
interest to this thread. I can't remember the name, but it was basically
a PC dictionary/thesaurus and sold for about 5 pounds. I had a quick
flick through it and found it to be about as distasteful as I thought it
would be. Basically the book seems to go to ridiculous extremes in
suggesting alternative terms, most of which will be awkward to use and
will lead to unnecessity verbosity thus obscuring the original meaning
of what one wanted to say. The blurb on the cover even gives an example
of this in which almost every word in a sentence has been replaced by a
multi-word phrase, and the end result is unintelligeable.

The basic idea of the book is to take the piss out of PC by taking it to
its logical extreme. And as the quote says:

<> Almost anything carried to its logical extreme becomes
<> depressing, if not carcinogenic. --- Ursula Le Guin

It remimded me of something similar I saw a while back, called "A
Feminist Dictionary" (or something like that). This book simply took a
few hundred English words which contained "men" and replaced this
substring with "women" and then gave some inane definitions to them.
While purporting to be humorous, it seemed to me that the book was
really an attempt to undermine feminism by trying to sum up the goals
of feminism as changing "man" -> "person" or "woman" in language,
and then by taking this to its logical, silly extreme to
therefore claim that feminism has also "gone too far."

No prizes for guessing if the author of this book was male or female.

I've no problem with trying to find non-judgementl alternatives for
judgement-loaden phrases; I think it is one way (of course, not the only
way) to fight oppression. My problem is with the term PC because I most
often hear it being used as a way to dismiss people's complaints about
"obnoxious" behaviour. Of course, if some people want to reclaim the
term PC then I wish them luck.


Ciaran.
-- 
---- Ciaran McHale (cjmchale@dsg.cs.tcd.ie)
\bi/ Department of Computer Science, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland.
 \/  Telephone: +353-1-7021539 FAX: +353-1-6772204
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: orc@vpnet.chi.il.us (david parsons)
Subject: Re: Homophobic garbage
Summary: Digression, anyone?
Organization: Department of Atomic Text Units
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 07:18:16 GMT

In article <1ds6faINNcfd@agate.berkeley.edu> rsr@soda.berkeley.edu (Roy S. Rapoport) writes:
|In article <1drpvtINNn3o@cuda.add.itg.ti.com> winsor@geek.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (js) writes:
[some C code]
|->----->kinda stupid ain't it?  How many *semantic* errors can you find?
|
|1)   You need to include <stdio.h> if you're using printf

   Not necessarily.  You'd only need stdio.h if you were using a compiler
or system that did something bizarre with arguments and had to tell cc
that printf is really and truely warped.

|2)   Symbolic constants are all upper-case.  Automatic variables (MALE) are
|     not. (OK, it'll work.  It's still not PC).

   You'd hate my coding style, Roy...

|5)   You didn't define have_sex().

   What, your libc.a doesn't include the have_sex() function? ;-)

|8)   Your tab style sucks (I'd have deducted some points, but then again, I'm
|     anal-retentive).

   (critique of tab indents deleted)

                ____
  david parsons \bi/ different machine, techie digression, but
                 \/  still a shameless e-slut
From: thom@crayfish.ucsd.edu (Thom Cleland)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: a tiny bit more out
Date: 8 Nov 92 21:33:10 GMT
Organization: Tenuous at best
NNTP-Posting-Host: crayfish.ucsd.edu

In article <1992Nov8.102310.2499@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu> fenthe@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu writes:
>In article <1992Nov4.213850.19519@ctp.com>, sthor@ctp.com (Sarah Thornburg) writes:
>> This is my first post here, but I've been reading for a while, and finally
>> felt the urge to express just a little thought. 
>
> Hi! Welcome to soc.bi!
>
> **hugs, snuggles, and greetings**
>
and from me!  big rhapsodic hug and adorable little nuzzles  ;^)

>> I am not I guess what people would consider
>> really out.  If anyone asks, or it comes up in a discussion, I don't hide
>> it, but I don't ever wear pins or T-shirts or whatever to advertise my own
>> bisexual pride.  I am what I am and I'm damn happy about it.
>
> Wow. Someone else -- I was beginning to think I was the only person reading
>this group that wasn't constantly going around outing themselves to all and
>sundry. (okay, so that's an exaggeration, but that's the impression I get at
>times)
>
Me too.  I mean, I don't hide it; if someone asks I'll tell them  (of course
their asking indicates that they at least understand there's a range of
options...)  and I'm sure some people suspect, and I have been known to
wear the subtler sorts of pride decor  (no "don't assume I'm straight"
T shirts yet...), but personal projection isn't really natural to me that
way.  I will flirt in good company regardless of gender  8^o  and am 
fairly outspoken  (read:  intolerant)  of denigrating jokes and stupid
comments about sexuality  (or race/gender/whatever for that matter), but
on the whole I let the world figure me out by itself, in the unlikely
event it should ever care to.  

Thom!


-- 
Thom Cleland     \ /^^/  >Neural systems/network physiology< >Amigaphile<  
(619) 453-7516    \OO/  >Aoinagi Shito-ryu == bend, and the wind passes <
tcleland@ucsd.edu  ++  >B3 f cdv g++ k+(+) m s+ r+ p growl+ purr++ zzz- <
"Wild magic is graven in every rock, every tree, in every blade of grass"
From: sa121@cl.cam.ac.uk (S. Arrowsmith)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: a tiny bit more out
Date: 10 Nov 92 13:47:54 GMT
Reply-To: SA121@phx.cam.ac.uk (S. Arrowsmith)
Organization: Surrealists against Lobsters

In article <vashti.721385904@concave> vashti@concave.cs.wits.ac.za (Vashti Galpin) writes:
>(Off the topic a bit, I have one T-shirt with a design which is
>essentially a comic strip about envying cats. [ ... ])
>
Not the one that ends with "No relationship problems" and two smuggly
neutered "cat pals"?  I have my doubts about the validity of that last
frame....

--
\S
SA121@phx.cam.ac.uk   | There's nowt |"And in this moment, I need to be needed
sarrowsm@nyx.cs.du.edu| so queer as  |"When my self-esteem is sinking,
                      | folk....     |"I like to be liked" -- Peter Gabriel
From: pdc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Paul Crowley)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: New Age Androgynous Bisexuals...
Date: 9 Nov 92 20:40:00 GMT
Reply-To: pdc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Paul Crowley)
Organization: Do they make a washing powder called Caliban Automatic?

In article <1992Nov6.232255.6978@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> sconley@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Stephen M Conley) writes:
>What about a pagan astrologer anarcho-capitalist?

Start running now.
  __                                ____
\/ o\ Paul Crowley pdc@dcs.ed.ac.uk \  /
/\__/ "I'm the boy without a soul"   \/
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: gtoal@ibmpcug.co.uk (Graham Toal)
Subject: Re: New Age Androgynous Bisexuals...
Organization: The IBM PC User Group, UK.
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 02:14:07 GMT

In article <MJB.92Nov8214541@oak24.doc.ic.ac.uk> mjb@doc.ic.ac.uk (Matthew J Brown) writes:
>Firstly, there is no such thing as a bisexual, or soc.bi, `Party
>Line'. The day there is, is the day I'm leaving this group. A number

I'd agree with that.  If that weren't the case I'd be gone by now.

>of prolific posters do hold 'socialist' beliefs; however, I see people
>disagreeing with them without being flamed into the ground. If
>socialist opinions seem more prevalent than those of other political
>positions, all this can possibly mean is that socialists are more
>likely to be wasters with too much time on their hands.

I hope you don't get the impression I'm right wing.  I've always been
vehemently anti-Tory and would pragmatically vote Labour given the
lack of credible alternative  If you're interested, my politics are
closest to the *old* Liberal party before they went too right-wing for
my taste.

>Secondly, do you refuse to associate with people who hold different
>beliefs than your own? If that is the case, then your circle of
>friends must be smaller, more insular, less varied and less
>self-critical than I could personally cope with.

That's probably quite an accurate assessment of my circle of friends.
I tend not to make friends quickly and i don't suffer fools gladly.
Most of the real friendships I've made have lasted a long time though,
and none at all were affected in the slightest by my coming out as bi.

>Personally, just about all I ask of people I associate with is to
>respect my right to hold the beliefs I do; this is not the same as
>agreeing with me. If this is the case, then I extend the same courtesy
>to them. 

As do I.  On the whole I agree with most of your post.  Even the bit
about me having lost my sense of humour recently.  I've been having a
dose of the fundy christians and it's enough to put anyone off their
food.  A long time ago in a conversation with Sara (Swampthing) I was
saying what I said yesterday, about not advertising my sexuality but
not sitting back when I hear bigotry of any kind.  She said at the
time that she 'didn't see me wearing any boxing gloves'.
Well I've just been through the mill with a Fundy bigot on a group that I
prefer to keep for relaxation rather than aggressive politics and it has
really worn me down.  Now I've earned my gloves, and they're bloody.

(btw this ties in with the 'enlightened self-interest' altruism
thread.  I didn't do it for you; I did it for me.)

G
--
From: bethand@castle.ed.ac.uk (Bethan Davies)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: .sig
Date: 5 Nov 92 19:05:44 GMT
Followup-To: soc.bi
Distribution: soc.bi
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <Bx5pyt.Dz@cck.coventry.ac.uk> idx009@cck.coventry.ac.uk (the Crisco Kid) writes:
>In article <1992Nov2.230844.22741@infodev.cam.ac.uk> MJW19@phx.cam.ac.uk (M.J. Williams) writes:
>>In article <Bx3tIp.8wE@cck.coventry.ac.uk> idx009@cck.coventry.ac.uk (the Crisco Kid) writes:
[B
>>>6'2", dark short hair, blue eyes, bisexual and horny as ....
>>I've been wanting to say this for some time....
>>Mike.
>>--
>>6'2", long blond hair, blue eyes, bisexual and horny as ....

Ummm... have a <big> demuffining hug.... if I can _reach_ that is....

>
>Blond and blue eyed? and you speak Welsh?  Sounds dodgy to me; think I'll
>have to run my celtimeter over you...

Oy! Just watch it, you! (Spake the definitely welsh, mostly blonde, and
well, blue-ish eyes (they vary..), and typically celtic aggressive
from the other celtic capital (bar Ireland, I suppose) )
Mind you, the excessive height is a bit suspicious...

>
>[WHY ARE ALL THESE CUTE PEOPLE IN CAMBRIDGE?]

Nearer than bloody Edinburgh.... :(

>				Kay

<snuggles> to ya, Kay!!!!!!!!!!!!

btw, if this article comes out a little weird its cos I'm reduced to 
using microemacs (<bleagh>), and I can't cope!

<HUGS> to those that want them....


Bethan
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: tmo@harry.engin.umich.edu (Tanya M Ollick)
Subject: Re: Finally Doing It ... Coming Out
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 92 17:51:59 EST
Organization: University of Michigan (CAEN)
Originator: tmo@harry.engin.umich.edu


In article <1ddgn3INNkoh@agate.berkeley.edu>, rsr@soda.berkeley.edu (Roy S. Rapoport) writes:
> 
> So ... now, the question is, how does one do this thing?
> I can see two main avenues:
> A) Let it drop in during a casual conversation
>    ("Oh, and so I met him, and he's _so_ cute ...")
> B) Sit them down for a talk
>    ("Mom, dad, sit down please....")
> 
> Any suggestions?

Well, I've been thinking about this for awhile, so I sympathize. When I came out to my mom, I chose the casual approach because it seemed more natural. I did make sure that my message was clear: we were talking about hatred, and I brought up how threatened I felt about attacks on LGBs because I was bisexual (no way she could mis-interpret THAT sentence :) As others have pointed out to me, Thanksgiving dinner is probably not the best place - too much stress to "have a good time." Hopefully you'll find a rel



axed, quiet opportunity; if not, do what feels right - if it's tearing you apart inside, it will come out eventually, and sometimes not in the best way.

> 
> I have this vague premonition coming out to my parents may precipitate my
> first "please hug me" post ... But a mammal's got to do what a mammal's got
> to do ...
> 

Post away. I'll start mixing my hug recipe...

TMO
From: pdc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Paul Crowley)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: New Age Androgynous Bisexuals...
Date: 5 Nov 92 10:39:08 GMT
Reply-To: pdc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Paul Crowley)
Organization: Do they make a washing powder called Caliban Automatic?

In article <Bx7Jqz.AH0@ibmpcug.co.uk> gtoal@ibmpcug.co.uk (Graham Toal) writes:
>In article <Bx7EpM.Iuz@cck.coventry.ac.uk> idx009@cck.coventry.ac.uk (the Crisco Kid) writes:
[ Kay turns out not to be a fundamentalist materialist ]
>>Look, this is going to get rapidly boring for most of the soc.biers, so
>>if you want to talk this through, shall we take it to email?
>
>No, it's easier to just cross you off my mental list of people
>worth getting to know better, and forget about it.  Kay into astrology,
>sheesh, who'd have believed it.

I have this problem with the bi network generally; most of the people
around are into some form of mysticism and the ones remaining are
obnoxious anarcho-capitalists like Graham.  New Age is vanishingly rare;
neopaganism is extremely thick on the ground; Christians have been
known, C of E as well as Quakers.  I don't expect everyone to be as
extreme a materialist as me since the conclusions you're forced to draw
are found strange by a lot of people; I just worry that my friends
sometimes sound as if they're entirely mad.

I'd sooner a pagan astrologer over an anarcho-capitalist any day, though.
  __                                ____
\/ o\ Paul Crowley pdc@dcs.ed.ac.uk \  /
/\__/ "I'm the boy without a soul"   \/
From: angi@festival.ed.ac.uk (Angi Lamb)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: No subject
Date: 6 Nov 92 01:16:28 GMT

cliveg@cix.compulink.co.uk (Clive Grace) writes:

|Bisexual Invisibility in the Blue Moon Cafe

|Now the Blue Moon to those that haven't been there is no stranger to 
|Bisexuals, the EBG meets there every Thursday (how did today's 
|workshop go BTW?) 

The workshop was well attended and Bill was most submissive *grin*.

|I felt, well, *straight*. Not because that was how I was feeling, but 
|because that was the way I felt I was being *perceived* -- as a 
|heterosexual, or a "failed" gay man... 

As the other person there, i definitely felt labelled as a stray
heterosexual.  Not good. 

|Now, I'm not saying what I did was a good thing or a bad thing, but 
|it seemed like a good way to diffuse a potential problem -- I'm just 
|wondering if this is a common problem with other people here, and how 
|many other people find they need some form of explicit identification 
|to tell the world that they are GLB -- after all If I'm going to get 
|branded, I'd rather get branded as something I am, rather than 
|something I'm not -- as it were.

Carrying a book to a cafe is fine but i haven't figured out what to wear
when that isn't appropriate eg discos.  I don't care for wearing badges
- they ruin clothes very quickly.  I'd thought of earrings (my current
collection numbers 100+ pairs) and getting some more holes pierced. 
Perhaps one pink and one blue triangle.  Or one male and one female
symbol.  Any ideas, anyone?

Angi
--
"The grass is greener on both sides of the fence." - me - last week