HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear)
Newsgroups: alt.gothic
Subject: Re: Neph or Nefs---that is not the question
Date: 21 Jan 93 09:02:30 GMT
Organization: Keele University, England

From article <iV5LXB6w165w@Nocturne.Boulder-Creek.CA.US>, by nadja@Nocturne.Boulder-Creek.CA.US (nadja):
> Fleeting Greetings or Beatings.  Besides "Laura" (by Fields of The 
> Nephilim), there is an album by 'Rubicon' out.  This menagarie of goth- 
> poppers contains an ex-Neph guitarist and drummer (drum-machine 
> controller, I would presume).  It IS a bit...lite....


You're telling me I was bitterly disappointed. I didn't think that
Rubicon had caught any of the distinctively brooding Nephs' sound at all (in
fact I thought they sounded a bit like the Cult). Any one know when we
can expect a Nefs album???

Andy
Newsgroups: alt.gothic
From: ashaw@ruacad.ac.runet.edu (Eldritch)
Subject: Re: And Also the Trees
Organization: Radford University
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 22:19:10 GMT

   Robert Smith produced their album "Farewell to the Shade" and a song
off it... that's the one I started with.  Later I picked up "The Millpond
Years," also good.  I've seen a boxed set of theirs in a store in
Washington DC.

   There was an article/interview with them in Propoganda (I think) many
moons ago... I think they come from the English countryside and borrow
from some folk.  But the extent of my knowledge on this band is somewhat
limited, sorry to say.

	Adam

Newsgroups: alt.gothic
From: agarde@nyx.cs.du.edu (Snark)
Subject: Re: Question - do we need an FAQ?
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 93 00:48:31 GMT

>In article <26JAN199318385761@pavo.concordia.ca> jt_rask@pavo.concordia.ca (RASKU, JASON T.) writes:
>Just woundering what alt.gothic is all about.  I haven't seen an FAQ 
>floating around so I haven't been able to consult it.  In the intrest of 
>saving bandwidth I'd sugest you mail your responces.  Thanks.
>
>							Jason Rasku

I have been thinking of our lack of an FAQ, and was wondering if it was
about time we made one. Questions such as what were the Nephilim, 
where are the ftp archives, what is this all for, etc, etc, do
come up every now and again, and a lot of this can be prevented by
having just a small FAQ.

So, if anyone thinks we should have one, let me know what sort of thing
you want included, and I will try to cobble one together in my spare
time.  I will then post it for your perusal. If no one replies... yet another
good idea will die...

Snark
Newsgroups: alt.gothic
From: laszlo@netcom.com (Laszlo)
Subject: Re: Dead Black Roses
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 20:00:14 GMT

Dead Black Roses have NOTHING to do with "hate". Guh.           Laszlo

Newsgroups: alt.gothic
From: nbrao@athena.mit.edu (?????)
Subject: Re: some kind of stranger
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 20:09:54 GMT

Sorry...  it should be  "at the door" instead of "by the door"

Nhan
From: maus@terapin.com (Steeeeeve Butowick)
Newsgroups: alt.gothic
Subject: With Sympathy
Date: 22 Jan 93 12:18:56 PST
Organization: BBS

please, no. I concur, it is the LAST thing you should consider buying.
"Mind is a terrible thing to taste" is a very good album though.
From: aspi@natinst.com (Aspi Havewala)
Newsgroups: alt.gothic
Subject: Start up, anyone?
Date: 28 Jan 1993 12:13:22 -0600
Organization: National Instruments, Austin, TX
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: falcon.natinst.com

Hi guys,
	Someone noted my interest in _The Mission, UK_ and pointed
out that I should read this newsgroup regularly. Can someone email
me something about any resources that can help me learn start up 
stuff about anything gothic, e.g. articles etc via ftp, books, magazines etc.
	Thanks,
	_Aspi_
From: AS.GMH@forsythe.stanford.edu (Gina)
Newsgroups: alt.gothic
Subject: Re: Death in June & Current '93. Info needed.
Date: 22 Jan 1993 10:13:44 -0800
Organization: Stanford University
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: morrow.stanford.edu

In article <1993Jan22.140756.11075@maths.tcd.ie>,
morpheus@maths.tcd.ie (John Mc Donagh) writes:
 [stuff deleted]
>What is Current '93 like? I hear Tibet '93 on Nada and it's OK.
>Are they similar or alot heavier...??
>
>Is the lead singer of DiJ the same as Psychedelic Furs or am I getting
>confused?
>
>Le Nascent Virion.

Current 93 is variable.  Some of their stuff is slow, ethereal and
spooky.  Some is more industrial, and LPs like "Swastikas for Noddy"
is like folk music for the devil (but it's a great album!).  They
are similar to Nurse with Wound.  David Tibet is the heart of C93.
I really like Current 93.

Most of the Death in June stuff is a lot like Nada.  (If I'm
remembering correctly) Steven Stapleton is the heart of DiJ, and I
think he also works with Sol Invictus (whose sound is similar to
DiJ).  I can guarantee you, the DiJ people have NOTHING to do with
the Furs.  However, DiJ and C93 people appear on each other's
albums.  Does anybody know if John Balance (Coil) also works with
these people?  Personally, I can live without DiJ and Sol Invictus--
the vocals get annoying after awhile.

Both bands, C93 and DiJ, are into some wierd religious/ceremonial
stuff which I know nothing about.  I would guess they would be
pretty scary people.

--Gina
Newsgroups: alt.gothic
From: stam@dgp.toronto.edu (Jos Stam)
Subject: Re: And Also the Trees
Date: 27 Jan 93 20:07:35 GMT

andfaer@solan.unit.no (Anders F{rden) writes:

>In article <C19nzJ.4Cw@ruacad.ac.runet.edu>, ashaw@ruacad.ac.runet.edu (Eldritch) writes:
> > 
> >    Yes, this is a truly great band, for those who haven't heard.  The only
> > problem I have with them is the singer needs to take breathing lessons...
> > 

>Surprisingly enough, I was able to pick up a few of their albums at a norwegian
>store. But noone around seem to know anything about them. Anything, folks! Who
>are they? Discography? (A year ago, I read a Melody Maker interview of The Cure,
>where Robert Smith called them the best live act of '91. That's how far I've got.)

True, they are really good and very gothic. The band lives in seclusion in some
small town in Britain. If you don't know them get their "Retrospective" CD
which has all their early stuff. Also the "live at the Dolce Vita" CD is very
good. The Dolce Vita is a club in Lausanne (Switzerland) where a lot of
"alternative" bands used to play. Don't know if the club still exists, anyways
its the only decent place in that city.

Both CDs are available in North America (at least here in Toronto). And yes
they are unknown here. Haven't met anyone who knows them here. Their latest
CD "Farewell to the Shade" is not as good but still worthwile buying.

check it out all goth dudes out there.
--- Jos

PS: the LP "the millpond years" has some sort of description of the band and
a discography in it. Sorry I left it back in Geneva....
relativ
Newsgroups: alt.gothic
From: morpheus@maths.tcd.ie (John Mc Donagh)
Subject: Death in June & Current '93. Info needed.
Organization: Dept. of Maths, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland.
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 14:07:56 GMT

I asked before for info on DiJ and since then I got
NADA. I was not overly impressed. They reminded me 
somewhat of DCD but with lack of lyrical ability.

I mean the verses are good, but I hate the repitition of say:
	'The torture Garden' *infinity
for the chorus. It really gets up my wick. But What I want to know
is what other albums do DiJ have?? Are they different from Nada?

What is Current '93 like? I hear Tibet '93 on Nada and it's OK. 
Are they similar or alot heavier...??

Is the lead singer of DiJ the same as Psychedelic Furs or am I getting
confused? 

PS Does anyone have any of the Guitar chords for any of the songs off Nada.
Nice acoustic guitar!

Le Nascent Virion.
Newsgroups: alt.censorship,comp.org.eff.talk,alt.comp.acad-freedom.talk
From: gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch)
Subject: Re: soc.feminism editorial policy
Organization: mydog in exile
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 19:57:48 GMT

In article <1993Jan23.034312.23498@leland.Stanford.EDU> farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf) writes:
| In article <1993Jan21.021423.26298@newstand.syr.edu> greeny@top.cis.syr.edu (J. S. Greenfield) writes:
| >In article <C14wGD.AJF@panix.com> gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch) writes:
| >
| >>| Follow-ups to alt.censorship, since it seems appropriate at this point...
| >>
| >>I don't think that's a good idea at all ....
| >
| >Given that nobody else seems to be contributing to the discussion,
| >and that it has essentially turned into a general discussion of
| >censorship--not soc.feminism, I don't really see the point...
| 
| I'm following this in alt.feminism, so I for one appreciate it staying
| in alt.feminism.  Also, since this started as a discussion of the
| "censorship" in soc.feminism (and is still touching on that), it
| belongs in alt.feminism.

There are two or three other people contributing to it
(as far as I know) but their articles went in alt.censorship
only.  I picked up on one of them since it seemed to hit all
the bases.  I expect the "soc.feminism moderation is
censorship" crowd to kick in any day now, as soon as they
figure out what the thread is about -- that is, a deprecation
of their practice of effacement by flammage.  Perhaps we'll
get a demonstration right in the thread!
-- 

 )*(    Gordon Fitch    )*(    gcf@panix.com    )*(
( 1238 Blg. Grn. Sta.,  NY NY 10274 * 718.273.5556 )
Newsgroups: alt.censorship,misc.headlines,talk.politics.misc
From: harry@hershele.alf.dec.com (Harry Katz)
Subject: Schmidling the Patriot -- not!
Organization: DEC - Customer Support Center, Alpharetta, GA
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 16:13:45 GMT

In article <C0IL3K.3KG@ddsw1.mcs.com>,
arf@ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling) quotes
carroll@hercules.cis.udel.edu (Mark C. Carroll)
without citing the original article:
 
	You're mother is Jewish, right Jack?  When did her family come
	to America?  What did they bring with them?


Mr. Schmidling retorts, rather smugly:

	Big bucks!


Mr. Carrol continues:

	And where would you be now if the bastards like you had
	succeeded in not letting that family come here?
 
 
 Mr. Schmidling retorts:

	Somewhere else, no doubt.  But again, so what?

Patrick Henry said, "Give me Liberty, or give me death!"  And Emma
Lazarus said, "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses
yearning to breathe free!"  But Mr. Schmidling has topped them all
with, "So what?"  Why should Mr. Schmidling even pretend to display
any patriotism to his adopted land when his family has "Big bucks!"


Mr. Schmidling continues:

	Maybe I would have ended up in Israel, as the Prime Minister
	of a real democracy, with friendly relations with all my Arab
	neighbors and running a healthy economy that is not a parasite
	of the US.

In reality, he cannot get himself elected Cook County Commissioner
on the Populist Party platform, but in his fantasies he has brought
peace to the Middle East!  By all means let us do both him and the
world a favor and deport Mr. Schmidling!


Mr. Schmidling continues:

	The liberal brainwashers want us all to think that the only
	alternative to a green card is the rack or a bullet in the head.

With rhetoric like this it is hard to believe that Cook County spurned
Mr. Schmidling's advances!  Wonder which of his many slogans led to his
defeat?  Was it, "Let's give away the Statue of Liberty?" or
"America -- Love it or so what?"


Harry Katz
From: hairy@sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Phil Anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.censorship
Subject: Re: soc.feminism editorial policy 
Distribution: world
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 93 00:41:40 GMT
Organization: Lethargy Inc.


In article <3519@bsu-cs.bsu.edu> joemays@bsu-cs.bsu.edu writes:

  > In article <727433011snx@sloth.equinox.gen.nz> 
    hairy@sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Phil  >  Anderson) writes:
  > 
  > >OK, so you maintain that if some material is barred from one medium 
  > >because of its content, but can still be published in some other 
  > >medium, it hasn't been censored. Isn't this analogous to saying that 
  > [..]
  > >I can't see any difference in principle between these two cases. Do 
  > >you?
  > 
  > Yup.
  > [...]
  > Is the NY Times not printing nudes on the front page censorship?  No,
  > because the selected representative of the owner of the times, the 
  > editor, has determined that the forum will not be used in that way.

I suggest you re-read what I wrote, because you're addressing a 
different issue to the one I raised. 

The original poster appeared to say that something had not been 
censored unless there was _nowhere_ it could be found. The matter of 
who controls the particular places where it might possibly appear 
isn't relevant to the general principle.

It _may_ be relevant to whether or not a _particular_ case involves 
censorship, although I personally think that content-based editorial 
control is a form of censorship, albeit a quite legitimate one in a 
privately controlled medium. (Here, I think, we differ more over 
definitions than basic principles).

  > to forums which might accept their material.  Censorship begins 
  > when someone other than the owner of the forum begins to control
  > what is contained in the forum against the owner's will.

Does this mean that government-owned media are by definition 
uncensored (in the absence of riot, revolution or whatever)?

  > they aren't.  Who gives them permission to exercise editorial control?
  > The question of "ownership" in the net becomes very confused.  I can't

You're right there.

  > abstracted and bland since the departure of Ed Nilges?  Isn't there
  > someone out there willing to make some inflammatory call for the silencing
  > of some group?  I know:  Silence the Armenians!  We can't have them on

Silence the censors!

 ----------------------------------------------
 Phil Anderson  ***  hairy@sloth.equinox.gen.nz
 ----------------------------------------------
       "No-one is equal to anyone else!"
Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.homosexual
From: crdunlea@rodan.acs.syr.EDU (Christopher R. Dunlea)
Subject: Re: Beat 'Em Back In The Closet!
Organization: Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 93 02:23:34 EST

In article <kd1hz2@anomaly.sbs.com> kd1hz@anomaly.sbs.com (Michael P. Deignan) writes:
>nwhite@crc.ac.uk (Nick White) writes:
>
>>I've just had a reply from the postmaster at Muskingum and by the sounds
>>of it ch_hayhurst is going to get well and truly beaten in HIS closet!
>
>>Just goes to show that writing to the postmaster can do the trick and get
>>bigots like this of the net.
>
>
>Interesting concept. Do you normally attempt to censor the views of everyone
>you disagree with.
>
>I'll be sure to contact the gentlemen at muskingum to insure that even if
>you do succeed in censoring him at that site, he will have another site 
>from which to post messages.
>
>MD
> 
>  Michael P. Deignan, KD1HZ               
>  Domain: mpd@anomaly.sbs.com               I'm not a bigot,    
>    UUCP: ...!uunet!anomaly!mpd             I hate everyone...  
> Telebit: +1 401 455 0347                 

Ah, lovely. Another misguided citizen who confuses freedom of expression
with the license to defame and preach hate, not to mention the possibility
of leading his institution, Muskingum, into a civil rights lawsuit (there
was no disclaimer to protect the school, which you must have seen, IF you
even read the post...). Maybe if I say the same about YOU, who I likewise 
have never met, and was thrown off this site for it, you would be so civic
minded and help me find another site to attack you from? Your hypocrisy 
bleeds through on my screen. 

Oh, and if this guy, or you, were to post like that (are you sure you 
read his post?! Really??) no law in this country could protect you from
getting thrown off--no sysmanager wants a to fight a lawsuit on behalf
of the likes of YOU.

Chris

Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.feminism
From: realy@maths.tcd.ie (rowland healy)
Subject: Article
Summary: article
Keywords: Salman Rushdie
Organization: Dept. of Maths, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland.
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 16:33:06 GMT

We had an interesting visitor to Trinity College last Friday - Salman Rushdie,        
publication of his novel "The Satanic Verses", which the Iranians believe to be blasphemous to the Muslim religion. Rushdie has been in hiding in Britain for  
the past four years with police protection day and night.
	Rushdie addressed a conference last Friday evening on the issue of      freedom of speech and censorship, and is seeking the help of governments in     various countries to put pressure on the Iranian government to revoke the death sentence.
 
Newsgroups: alt.censorship,comp.org.eff.talk
From: barry@netcom.com (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: soc.feminism editorial policy (was Re: I can't believe it!)
Organization: QQQCLC
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 05:30:38 GMT

In article <C13nHH.M42@panix.com> gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch) writes:
>There's an additional problem with soc.feminism, though.
>Even with moderation, soc.feminism is not allowed to exclude
>challenges to the basic validity of feminism, so most
>articles there, no surprise in a sea of misogyny, discuss 
>the basic validity of feminism.  This does limit the scope
>of the newsgroup pretty severely.

	What else could possibly happen, Gordon? There's no available
consensus on feminism; not by people, not by women, not by feminists.
Sure, I remember the discussions, when the group was formed, about
getting "beyond the basics", away from arguing axioms all the time, and
getting a higher-level discussion. But it can't happen. Feminism isn't
science, it's politics. It has no rigor, just theology. The most
theology can yield is orthodoxy, not truth.

	So you're stuck. Either you get an artificial, unrepresentative
"consensus" via censorship, or you argue the fundamentals, as with any
political issue.

	If the moderators of soc.feminism do not exclude "challenges to
the basic validity of feminism", it's not because they're not allowed
to, it's because they have more sense than that. The only "consensus" in
feminism is that of a few academic careerists with a mostly illusary
sense of their own importance. And even that consensus is pretty shaky.
Is there agreement in feminism about whether men are inherently more
violent than women? About whether a fairer society means what we have,
but fairer, or whether women will cause a basic modification of the
social fabric? About the status of porn and prostitution? No? Then what
would you expect but debate?

	If anyone wants to have a new moderated group, soc.feminism.pc,
where there will be an enforced orthodoxy, and discussion will be
restricted to how many angels dance on the heads of feminist pins, I've
no objection, but I doubt it will attract much readership.

	I wish soc.feminism better-represented the real range of
sentiment on these issues than it does, and restricted the editorial
management to keeping discussion civilized, but I'm not upset. The
moderators are only human; they make mistakes. But the intentions look
good, and only moderately skewed by hidden agendas. I doubt I'd do much
better.

-  From the Crow's Nest  -                Kenn Barry
----------------------------------------------------------------
ELECTRIC AVENUE:    			barry@netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.feminism,news.groups
From: era@csn.org (Ed Arnold)
Subject: REQUEST FOR ASSISTANCE
Originator: era@teal.csn.org
Keywords: Extremists, Christian Right, Amendment 2
Reply-To: era@csn.org (Ed Arnold)
Organization: Citizens Project; Colorado Springs, CO
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 01:46:55 GMT

We of the Citizens Project (Colorado Springs, CO) are looking for people
who could assist us in re-distributing the Citizens Project Newsletter
to non-Internet computer services.  If you have an account on any such
services (CompuServe, FidoNet, Genie, Prodigy, America Online, and others)
and are willing to help us, please let us know via return email to
era@ncar.ucar.edu.

The Citizens Project is a Colorado Springs, CO - based group of volunteers
who seek to prevent extremists from eliminating our fundamental freedoms,
in the face of growing political and religious intolerance in Colorado.
--
Ed Arnold * Boulder, CO * 303-497-1253(voice,weekday) * 303-494-6949(voice)
internet: era@csn.org * compuserve: internet:era@csn.org * bitnet: era@ncario
-- 
Ed Arnold * Boulder, CO * 303-497-1253(voice,weekday) * 303-494-6949(voice)
internet: era@csn.org * compuserve: internet:era@csn.org * bitnet: era@ncario
Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.feminism
From: farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf)
Subject: Re: soc.feminism editorial policy
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 93 03:43:12 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.021423.26298@newstand.syr.edu> greeny@top.cis.syr.edu (J. S. Greenfield) writes:
>In article <C14wGD.AJF@panix.com> gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch) writes:
>
>>| Follow-ups to alt.censorship, since it seems appropriate at this point...
>>
>>I don't think that's a good idea at all, if we're discussing
>>whether or not newsgroup moderation is censorship.  First of
>>all, the discussion arose out of a dispute about the
>>moderation policy in soc.feminism.  We can't conveniently
>>cross-post to soc.feminism, but alt.feminism serves as a
>>kind of soc.feminism.d, so it will do.  I'd like also to 
>>cross-post to some other groups where this sort of question 
>>has come up before, often with a lot of conflict, but maybe
>>we need to boil down the issues a bit first.
>
>Given that nobody else seems to be contributing to the discussion,
>and that it has essentially turned into a general discussion of
>censorship--not soc.feminism, I don't really see the point...

I'm following this in alt.feminism, so I for one appreciate it staying
in alt.feminism.  Also, since this started as a discussion of the
"censorship" in soc.feminism (and is still touching on that), it
belongs in alt.feminism.

Xref: sparky alt.censorship:10147 alt.homosexual:703
From: morgan@engr.uky.edu (Wes Morgan)
Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.homosexual
Subject: Re: Beat 'Em Back In The Closet!
Date: 28 Jan 93 15:46:19 GMT
Organization: University of Kentucky Engineering Computing Center

crdunlea@rodan.acs.syr.EDU (Christopher R. Dunlea) wrote:
>
>Oh, and if this guy, or you, were to post like that (are you sure you 
>read his post?! Really??) no law in this country could protect you from
>getting thrown off--no sysmanager wants a to fight a lawsuit on behalf
>of the likes of YOU.
>

No sysadmin wants to (or should have to) fight a lawsuit on behalf of
ANY user.  If you have a problem with an individual's actions in a 
public forum, why should you expect the organization to censure (or
censor) that individual?  

If you believe that the absence of an explicit disclaimer makes the
service provider liable for postings by its users, you are misunderstood.
In _Cubby v. CompuServe._, a US court determined that CompuServe was
*not* liable for postings/uploads made by one of its users.

--Wes

-- 
MORGAN@UKCC         |       Wes Morgan       |        ...!ukma!ukecc!morgan 
morgan@ms.uky.edu   | University of Kentucky |   morgan@wuarchive.wustl.edu
morgan@engr.uky.edu | Lexington,Kentucky USA | JWMorgan@dockmaster.ncsc.mil
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