From: uunet!infmx!hartman@ncar.ucar.EDU (Robert Hartman)
Subject: Re: My Young Friend Was "Date Raped"...
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.
Date: 17 Nov 92 03:52:22 GMT

In article <1dpj0tINNork@agate.berkeley.edu> dwelch@devnull.mpd.tandem.com (Dan Welch) writes:
>In article <1dfpqgINN4ss@agate.berkeley.edu> uunet!infmx!hartman@ncar.UCAR.EDU (Robert Hartman) writes:
>>And if the perp outweighs the victim by a good 50 pounds and stays
>>between the victim and the phone?
>
>Then the perp is using physical force, at which point it becomes harassment.
>It's still not rape until he actually *rapes* her, i.e., forces himself upon
>her sexually.  That's why they call it rape, you see.

Hmmm.   I guess the scenario I'm picturing is a little different
than yours.  I'm seeing threats conveyed by body language.

>>Why is it exactly that you have
>>no sympathy for someone in the victim's position?
>
>I have no sympathy for the victim as you presented her because she's only
>a victim in her own mind.  Look, you didn't present the perp as using any
>force but stubbornness.  She asks him to leave, he refuses.  She still
>has a lot of options besides going, "Oh, all *right*, I'll have sex with
>you."  Like calling the police.  Like calling her friends.  The way you
>presented it, though, all that happened was that one person was unable
>to stand up to another person with more willpower.  That's *not* rape, and
>it's very, very dangerous to call it rape, IMHO.

Hmmm.  I see.  In the scenario as I pictured it, the man would get
between her and the phone, or whatever.  But as soon as he does that,
I think we'd agree that it is rape.

>>That's why I think that the line is well placed.  That's where it
>>stopped being consensual.  So what do _you_ call it when someone demands
>>nonconsensual sexual favors under threat (express or implied) of violence?
>
>But Robert, there were no threats!  None.

There were no _explicit_ threats.  That doesn't mean there weren't
any threats.  Like the bully in the hall, the man's body language
can convey a lot of danger.

>For instance, when the perp says, "I'm not leaving until you kiss me", it
>could mean two very different things, depending on how it was said.

Precisely.   That's why I didn't draw the line there.

>>I'm deadly serious.  I'm asking you.  Fits of pique aside, what _do_ you
>>call it?
>
>I call it rape, but that's not what you were describing.

I guess the difference I see is that I'm willing to accept implicit
threats as actual threats.  I think that many women see implicit
threats as real.  As men, we're socialized a bit differently.

>Most women want to believe that their equal place in society *is* a given,
>or it at least should be.  This is not the case, though, for men or women.
>In a society of individuals, and individual freedom, every person has to
>be responsible for guarding their own personal integrity.  I don't think
>that it's society's place to do it for them, except in cases where someone
>can't.

Hmmm.  We may be straying from soc.feminism, but why shouldn't society?

>>From your tone, you don't seem to agree with this.  I do, and that's the
>basic difference between the way we are seeing this.  If you won't stand
>up for yourself, I have no sympathy for you whatsoever.  Note again, however,
>that this is miles apart from not being *able* to stand up for yourself.

But aren't there situations in which even _you_ can't stand up for
yourself?  This is not as black and white as you make it out to be.
>he can talk faster than you can think?
>So what would you do in this circumstance?  Give the salesman your card?
>I wouldn't, and I don't think you would, either -- you'd kick him bodily
>out of your house.  Or if you couldn't, you'd get someone over to your
>house to do it for you.

Depending on the circumstances, I might give him the card and then
call the police.  False imprisonment.  Trespass.  Robbery.  If I
didn't think I could physically remove him, I'd throw the book at
him.

>Is it wrong to hold women up to the same standard?  They are, after all,
>equal.

Not if the standard is tenable.

-r

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