From: javad@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com (Agha Javad)
Subject: Re: Women's pos. & Ben Mahjoor
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 17:49:57 GMT
Organization: LabaniyyAtee-e-Sar-e-Koocheh

In article <sehari.724458070@class1.iastate.edu> sehari@iastate.edu (Babak Sehari) writes:
>In <1992Dec15.180451.9933@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com> javad@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com (Agha Javad) writes:
>

[my stuff deleted]

>>NOTHING.  You hear me? NOTHING!!  It wasn't a matter of defense, honor, young
>
>You and other Iraqi spies have asked this question times and times again
>and received the answer for it.  However, either you do not want to hear
>the truth or you are thinking time might haved caused people to forget
>the reason why we defended our country.  You can be sure that in this day 
>and age no one will forget what was the reason why we defended from our 
>country.  Here is my article about the same question that another Iraqi
>spy asked a while back:

Since you have no credible answer, you resort to calling me an Iraqi spy.
But what else should I expect, since there really isn't much else you can
say?

Now let's go to your highly well thought out answer to some other "Iraqi
spy":

>
>
>The war between Iran and Iraq was a popular war.  How could one stand quite,
>when Iraqies had gang raped 20 Iranian girls in Desful?!  Who, was going to
>answer the mothers cry  for their sons, who  were killed by stupid government
>of Iraq.  Where was one's sense of justice who could sign a peace agreement
>and shack hand with Iraqies, without  bringing to justice those who were 
>responsible for such crimes?! 

How could one stand quiet when the same Pasdars who so "bravely" defended
our country rape young girls in prisons?  Are you at war with them too?
As for the mothers whose sons died, what is IRI's response to them today?
Did extending the war another 6 years constitute an answer, or did it just 
create many more such mothers, sisters, widows to answer to?  Justice?
Please spare me, since when does IRI practice justice?  What happened to their
sense of justice in 1988?  What was different in 1988 compared to 1982, that
suddenly made "sign a peace agreement and shack hand with Iraqies" acceptable?
Who are you trying to fool?  If agreeing to end an unnecessary war makes
one guilty of being an Iraqi spy, then IRI became an Iraqi spy in 1988.
So save the crap about "Iraqis gang raping our women", since the IRI does
the same thing, and crimes like this are not a monopoly of the Iraqi gov't.
The time that you could get people worked up like this has passed, they
don't buy your crap anymore, and you need to use rational arguments instead
of name calling and appeals to people's "gheirat" (of which IRI and its
"butt-sniffs" [(c) 1992 Babak]) have none.

>
>I do not know what you would have done, if one of those girls were your 
>relative?! 
>
>The only group which was sided,even from the beginning of the war, with Iraqies
>were the Khaenian Khagh, also known as "Mojaheaine Khar".  They provided
>intelligence information to Iraqies, from very beginning of the war.  After

You're changing the subject.  Did I even say a word about MKO?  If you
talk about MKO, fine, but then I can start talking about Iraqi traitors
such as Ayatollah Hakim and the "Supreme Council of the Islamic Revolution
of Iraq", who are nothing more than another bunch of IRI "butt sniffs"
[(c)1992 Babak], based in Tehran, and they would follow in the steps
of the Iranian troops who advanced into Iraq and had killed thousands of
their conscripted countrymen in the process.  I didn't bring up the subject
of groups supported by the other side, you did, and it's completely irrelevant
to this discussion.  Again, this newsgroup is not Friday prayer in Tehran,
you need to address the issues and answer the concerns about your position,
and name calling and changing the subject just doesn't carry any weight here,
unfortunately for you.

>first two year, when the Iraqi army was in total defeated, suddenly they
>wanted to stop the war so they can re-equip themselves and start the war
>over again in just a few years.  This is a  military norm that when your
>army is in defeat you call for cease fire just to re-supply yourself.

The Iraqi armed forces re-equipped themselves anyway, such that in 1988
they had the strongest military in their history, a few times stronger than
in 1982.  By 1988, Iraq had Mig29's, Su25's, the world's most advanced tanks
and armored vehicles, not to mention chemical weapons and an extensive
nuclear weapons program, all this thanks to Arab support which was a reaction
to IRI's aggressive stance towards the outside world.  So the difference
was that in 1982, Iran's armed forces had not been so completely depleted,
and was more on par with Iraq's army, which was in a state of total defeat.
They could have dictated the terms for a cease fire as they pleased, short of
demanding the overthrow of Saddam.  In 1988, however, the tables were turned,
and Iran was FORCED to accept peace as dictated by Iraq, not getting ANY damages,
having lost land, and having been expelled from Iraq completely and in a total
state of defeat, whereas Iraq's military was intact and stronger than ever
in fact, very close to that of Israel.  (This of course was a major reason
Desert Storm happened). Now you tell me, WHICH WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER?
What do YOU have to say to the mothers, sisters, widows of the dead?
How do you think these women live today?  For what??  What was it all for??
I'll tell you what it was all for - it was for NOTHING!!  

Wake up, man!  The war wasn't even in the hands of either of our countries.
The superpowers would back whichever side was losing.  When Iran was short of
supplies, Israel and the black market, and when times were really tough,
even the US would directly loosen the supply of arms.  When Iraq was in a
bind, they would tighten the supply on Iran, and generously back Iraq.
And of course they relied on people like you to go sell the crap about
"go fight! They're raping your sisters!  Hurry up, what are you waiting
for??" to our peoples, and voila!  There you have an easy recipe for an
eight year war to keep two of the middle east's most resourceful countries
at each other's throats, fuelling the east and the west' economies with
massive weapons purchases, letting the Israelis sleep easy or better yet, do
whatever the hell they want, eliminating an entire young genration and therefore
the future of these countries, giving the superpowers green light to have
a ridiculously high military presence in the Persian Gulf and terrorize 
civilians, and of course, set the stage for the grand finale of it all,
desert storm, where America and its allies would walk away as the victorious
and just winner who takes all, and I have news for you buddy- GUESS WHO
PAID THE BILL FOR ALL THIS??  WHO LOST? WHO WON? Or do you need more help in 
figuring it out? Maybe you're too busy trying to sort out the philosophical 
aspects of "temporary marriage", but you have a long way to go when it comes 
to this one.

The war isn't over yet.  We will feel the effects of this big mistake on our
country for at least the next hundred years.


>Exactly at this point in time, mojaheadine also called for cease fire, too.
>Does not seem strange to you?!

Again, they are not the subject of our discussion, and I never liked them anyway
because they were key in bringing IRI regime to our country.

>
>I was wondering, if we had stopped the war at that time and Iraqies would have
>re-supplied themselves and attacked to us back again, where we all be today.
>

We would be just where we are today, because we lost the war anyway.

>However, Mojaheadines call for cease fire, came not because they thought
>the war and killing is bad, their group was a gorilla organization from
>very beginning, so they believe that war is the way to reach to one's goals.
>Their opposition to the war was because, they thought by the end of the war, 
>Iranian government would fail, just the reason that the government would
>have stopped the war at that point would have been enough to bring the 
>government down. Then mossiu messy and the gang could gain power, and 
>start dividing the goodies among themselves.

So you are admitting that the IRI continued the war for domestic political
considerations?  What a bloody way to remain in power, but I guess they and
their supporters don't care much about blood, especially other people's
blood.

>
>If the government had stopped the war at that stage, how could it had answered 
>to the mothers who have lost their sons?  Also, it would have established a 
>bad precedence that one might attack Iran without paying for it.  So, even 
>though painful, government and the people had to do what had to be done.  
>May this be a lesson to those who think of attacking Iran in the future.

As I said, what is their answer now?  Do they have a better answer?  As far
as precedence, Iraq attacked Iran, and didn't pay a thing.  They even got 
a victory out of it.  If it hadn't been for desert storm, they still would be
holding our land, our POW's, and threatening us.  Had they not invaded
Kuwait, they would have still had the military strength to successfully
invade Khuzestan, since their military was building up and ours was falling
apart.  Why do you think Rafsanjani and his "moderates" gave Khomeini his
"cup of poison"?  Continuing the war after 1982 only made our people
pay, and very dearly.  I'm glad you at least admit it was painful, since
others in IRI claim it as a glorious thing to fight and die, and you should not
cry at the death of your martyred son, but rather celebrate.  But I would 
correct the statement: "government and the people had to do what had to be done"
to: "people had to do what the gov't forced them to, and they got screwed
big time".

>
>                With highest regards for all the Iranian soldiers
>                who give their life to save our homes, mothers, sisters,
>                and country.

		Agreed, and with lowest regards for IRI bastards who 
		betrayed them, didn't even build a memorial for them,
		and is driving those same soldiers' widows into prostitution
		behind their backs!
>
>                   Babak  Sehari.
>
>

May our country be freed of the fascists,


Agha Javad


Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian