From: "amy lynn young-leith" <alyoung@kiwi.ucs.indiana.edu>
Subject: Re: Drunk Sex = Rape?
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 21:18:10 -0500

In article <C1BpFC.A35@cs.mcgill.ca> chuckies@cs.mcgill.ca (Charles J Savoie) writes:
>In article <16B5EA76A.ALI00BAW@UNCCVM.UNCC.EDU> ALI00BAW@UNCCVM.UNCC.EDU writes:
>>I don't think that anyone will argue that if a woman is falling-down-drunk
>>or semiconscious she is still capable of giving consent.
>I would.  If she drank willingly, and gave clear consent, I would.  Just like
>she would be responsible for choosing to get into a car and drive.

What if the woman is UNCONSCIOUS.  I believe that the above
"semiconscious or falling down drunk" is way too lose to even THINK of
in a legal sense.  Chuckies, what if the woman was *unconscious*.
Then what? 

>>HOWEVER, the question
>>is, what about the one who has had perhaps one G&T more than is strictly
>>advisable?
>Same as the man.

Someone deleted too much and I can't remember, so I have no idea what
the deal is above... =)

>>In the
>>abovedescribed state she goes to bed with someone.  The next morning she
>>wakes up, hung over, looks over to the other side of the bed, and says:
>>"WHAT was I thinking of last night?"

You were probably thinking you were horny and the guy was hot, but
anyway... 

>Tough.  As someone else mentioned, one is still responsible for their
>actions while intoxicated, if the intoxication was willing.

Most certainly.

>>The man MAY be morally culpable for taking advantage of her state;
>Perhaps he was drunk.  Does this still apply to women?

If a man is drunk, and this intoxication is willing, he is STILL
responsible for acting within the law.  "But I was drunk" is no more a
defense for him than "I was drunk" should be the prosecution for the
woman.  If she did not give consent, or was in no condition to give
legal consent (unconscious), and he was too drunk to pay attention to
her, or didn't really stop to think what she meant, then that's HIS
problem, for HE'S the one that's allowed himself to get into a state
where he cannot act responsibly.  It works both ways. 

>>is he,
>>however LEGALLY guilty of rape?  That would put him in the same catagory as
>>someone who jumped the woman as she walked home, dragged her into the bushes,
>>and. . . .To put the two in the same class would, I think, be

I think the former should be rape, and the latter should be rape PLUS
violent personal assult charges.  Given that there are so many "types"
and situations where rape occurs, I think we need to be a bit more
clear in taking the crimes apart. 

unjust; however
>>I am uncomfortable with letting the first man totally off the hook, because,
>>after all, he probably was on some level aware that when the woman said 'yes'
>>it was at least partly the gin talking.  Is there some lesser charge, perhaps
>           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ so what??
>>even a misdemenour (sp?), he could be had up on?
>Do you think he should be LEGALLY guilty of anything?  Why should he be
>punished, what did he do wrong?  If he was drunk himself, why is he more
>guilty than she?

I'm not sure just what we're talking about now, but if two people get
drunk, end up sleeping together, and then wake up the next morning and
go, "oh god, what did I do..." I think they should be held to their
irresponsible behavior.  A woman should not be able to use "I
consented but I was drunk" as grounds for a rape charge, but nor
should a man be able to say, "Hey, I was drunk, I'm not guilty because
I was drunk."  

>If a woman has a bad day, and consents to sex as a result (perhaps to relieve
>tension), would you be uncomfortable with "letting the man off the hook"
>given that it was at least partly her frustration talking?

Huh?  This analogy sucks. 

>Amy, here is my example of someone who believes sleeping with a drunk
>woman is grounds for being thrown in jail and getting a criminal record
>(a misdemeanor is sufficient for this, is it not?).

I think you're going a bit overboard here in characterizing what this
person said.  

amy
-- 
alyoung@kiwi.indiana.edu	        	Occupation:  Lifetime Student
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*This post was made on personal time and has nothing to do whatsoever with  *
*              the attitudes or opinions of Indiana University.             *
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