From: rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Jesus is a Prophet, not Son of God
Date: 13 Nov 92 12:58:18 GMT
Organization: CERL-EE, Georgia Institute of Technology

In article <92317.130120RBNXHS@rohvm1.rohmhaas.com> RBNXHS@rohvm1.rohmhaas.com writes:

All the words and deeds Jesus did are not recorded.  Check out the
closing of the book of John - the purpose of his book was to show that
JESUS IS THE CHRIST, THE SON OF GOD, and that by believing we my
have life in his name (John 20:31.)  John goes on to say that if all
things Jesus said and did were recorded, the whole world could not
hold them.  Each of the gospels had different purposes.

Now to the issue at hand.  If you read the gospels, you will see that 
Jesus said many things while on the cross - some to his own mother and 
to John, some to God the Father, some to the thief on the cross beside
himself, etc.

The last comment on what Jesus said in each of the gospels (Matt 27:50,
Mark 15:37, Luke 23:26, John 19:30) tells us that Jesus was on the
cross and that he said several things - all of them end with Jesus
in some form or another dying.  If they had said the exact same thing,
would you not ignore it and try to find something else to pick at?

>In the canonical gospels Jesus is reported to have uttered: Eloi| Eloi| Lama
>Sabachtani, whose translation is My God| My God| Why have you forsaken
>me. (Matt. 27:46 writes Eli instead of Eloi in Mark 15:34. The author of

    Matthew 27:45-51 (NIV)   From the sixth hour until the ninth 
    hour darkness came over all the land. {46} About the ninth hour 
    Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama 
    sabachthani?"--which means, "My God, my God, why have you 
    forsaken me?" {47} When some of those standing there heard this, 
    they said,  "He's calling Elijah." {48} Immediately one of them 
    ran and got a sponge. He filled it with wine vinegar, put it on 
    a stick, and offered it to Jesus to drink. {49} The rest said, 
    "Now leave him alone. Let's see if Elijah comes to save him." 
    {50} And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave 
    up his spirit. {51} At that moment the curtain of the temple was 
    torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks 
    split. 

    Mark 15:33-39 (NIV)   At the sixth hour darkness came over the 
    whole land until the ninth hour. {34} And at the ninth hour 
    Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama 
    sabachthani?"--which means, "My God, my God, why have you 
    forsaken me?" {35} When some of those standing near heard this, 
    they said,  "Listen, he's calling Elijah." {36} One man ran, 
    filled a sponge with wine vinegar, put it on a stick, and 
    offered it to Jesus to drink. "Now leave him alone. Let's see if 
    Elijah comes to take him down," he said. {37} With a loud cry, 
    Jesus breathed his last. {38} The curtain of the temple was torn 
    in two from top to bottom. {39} And when the centurion, who 
    stood there in front of Jesus, heard his cry and saw how he 
    died, he said, "Surely this man was the Son of God!" 

>Luke however contradicts other synoptists by saying that the last words
>of Jesus on the cross were: Father, into Thy hands I commend my spirit.

There is no contraction between Matthew, Mark, and Luke - the first
two don't say what Jesus said, but say he cried out - Luke tells
us what he said.

    Luke 23:44-47 (NIV)   It was now about the sixth hour, and 
    darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour, {45} for 
    the sun stopped shining. And the curtain of the temple was torn 
    in two. {46} Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into 
    your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he 
    breathed his last. {47} The centurion, seeing what had happened, 
    praised God and said, "Surely this was a righteous man." 

>The author of Johnian gospel simply does not mention any of these.)

Here John tells us that after he tasted the vinegar (as in Matthew
and Mark) that he spoke and then died.

    John 19:28-30 (NIV)   Later, knowing that all was now completed, 
    and so that the Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, "I am 
    thirsty." {29} A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a 
    sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and 
    lifted it to Jesus' lips. {30} When he had received the drink, 
    Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and 
    gave up his spirit. 

>The variations in these so-called canonical gospels alone show that the
>authors simply did not know; they simply were not the eye-witnesses to

What about John????

>the event that they were reporting about. Luke and Mark definitely were
>not (even if one were to consider them as historical personalities, which
>is doubtful) the disciples of Jesus. Church tradition (based on Paul's

Luke tells us in the introduction of his book that he carefully researched
the information.  He doesn't claim to be an eyewitness.

>writing) puts them as companions of Paul. Was Paul a witness to the
>crucifixion scenario? We simply don't know. None of the so-called canonical
>gospels ever mention him anywhere. (Even the list of the women present
>during the event vary between the gospels, so does the people whom Jesus

Do these different viewpoints discredit the whole of the message?  No.
Jesus died and rose from the grave - that is the gospel - it doesn't
matter who or  when people found, but that it happened.
 
>is reported to have met after ascension from the grave. Note also that
>the last part of Markan gospel was tacked to the original writings by
>some other forger to give credence to Jesus's mission.)

Look at Mark - look at the end of the section that is said to be the
end of the original text - you can well see that the text should not
stop there, can't you?

People clamour for a reason to reject the Bible, but all of the
supposed problems they find do not discredit the main theme of Jesus
the Christ being our Saviour (God in human flesh - Creator - the Lamb 
slain before the foundation of the world - the crucified and resurrected 
Son of God - The Christ).  

>Siddiqui.

For Christ and His Kingdom,
Richard Pitts
-- 
rpitts@cerl.gatech.edu       |    
Atlanta, GA                --|-- 
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