From: Will Steeves <goid@zooid.guild.org>
Subject: Re: Freedom Of Choice For Men is no more "un)family" than Pro-Choicers!
Note: I am adding a.a.i., so that Hillel may defend the charges levelled his way
X-To: GORDON FITCH
Organization: The Zoo of Ids
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 04:15:00 GMT

gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch) writes...
>goid@zooid.guild.org (Will Steeves) actually responded to
>my complaints about men's choice.

Yes, it takes a while, but I get around to it...


>gf:
>| GF>I've come up with a general solution -- in fact, two of
>| GF>them -- which would get unwilling fathers off the hook.
>| GF>They are (1) to communize (or if you prefer, socialize)
>| GF>child support; and (2) to use the method used by (I
>| GF>believe) the Navahos, who allocate certain communal
>| GF>resources to mothers with children (in the case of the
>| GF>Navahos, arable land).

>ws:
>| These are, I would admit, fairly revolutionary ideas, and as such, I would
>| not be quick to dismiss them out of hand, though you have dismissed much
>| of what has been proposed by the Freedom Of Choice for Men advocates on
>| the net.

>What?  I said it was politically unrealistic in the
>current environment, and that it didn't take into
>consideration wider issues.  Does anyone deny either
>of these propositions?

No, but it *does* seem like you have been denying most of what we say.


>| GF>(Or by anyone else, actually; as I said, the question
>| GF>doesn't seem to interest any of you.  At 53, I can
>|    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>ws:
>| Not all all... Just because we didn't come up with *your* ideas, does not
>| mean that we do not have ideas of our own.  Do not judge us by *your* own
>| standards, please.

>What are they?  I'm breathless with anticipation.  This
>is the first response to any of my articles in this thread
>that suggests that anyone has any ideas at all about what
>happens to the children in the new world proposed.  The
>remainder have studiously ignored the question, unless I
>missed something.

Well, I haven't seen the Pro-Women's Choice side saying much about
what happens to the children who just won't make it to the new world
which *they* have proposed and won...  I just felt like tossing that in,
seeing as you are accusing *us* of being myopic about "children".


>gf:
>| GF>count on some of you to keep the economy going so I
>| GF>can get my social security and dividend checks as I
>| GF>hobble around twenty or thirty years hence; but for
>| GF>_you_, there will evidently be no next generation.
>| GF>Good luck!)

>ws:
>| Excuse me, Gordon, but I believe that you have always known that Pro-Women's
>| Choice advocates are NOT against having children (not generally, at any
>| rate), but are in favour of CHOOSING when to do so.  This is the same with
>| the Freedom Of Choice for Men movement.  ...

>As I pointed out in at least two previous articles,
>any middle-class type who had children under the world
>arrangement proposed by "men's choice", at least the
>Hillel Gazit version, would be crazy; they'd lose the
>rat race.

Why?  What's so dangerous about *both* parents having children which
they *both* want, rather than which *just* one parent wants while the
other is forced?


>The effect of even _present_ mechanisms of support, or
>rather, the lack of them, have apparently brought the
>birth-rate below the population replacement level.

Apparently, you don't see any problem with forcing men to support
unwanted children to bolster the population, but I guess that you'd
draw the line at forcing women to stay pregnant?  Well, though, that
would CERTAINLY solve any population problems, now wouldn't it?

(BTW, I was *not* suggestion that abortion be outlawed...  Chuckle for
the sarcasm impaired...)

---
Will Steeves, goid@zooid.guild.org                      "Neil Hull is GOiD"
ZOOiD BBS, Toronto, Ontario - The Zoo Of Ids            "GOiDS Rule"
(416) 322-7876

"Gravity: It's more than just a fragrance.  It's the LAW!"
   - Will Steeves, President, GOiDS "R" We, Inc.

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