HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dwivian@helena.stat.uga.edu (Dwivian Unterschreiber)
Subject: Re: Fighting fundies
Keywords: fundamentalists, struggle, discrimination
Organization: UGA Statistics Department
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 15:38:35 GMT

In article <C18GJC.78J@news.cso.uiuc.edu> 
mchaffee@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Real Life?!?! HA!!) writes:
>Another idea:  Why not try to drain the fundies' pocketbooks a little bit each
>day on our own?  A few months ago, someone mentioned sending lead weights to
>them through business reply mail?  

The Post Office routinely 'fails to send' mail of excessive weight attached 
to business-reply cards.  Also, many places use third-party companies to
handle their mail, which causes the third-party to lose money, not the 
organization (which is why they do this).  In the past the post office has
refused to carry bricks labeled with business reply cards or codes.

> What about sending lots of letters, without
> return address, postage due?

The organization may choose to refuse to receive unlabeled mail, especially
if it is postage due.  Only two or three letters would get through before
they'd just refuse them outright, sending them to the dead letter office.

> How about calling their 1-800 numbers (Do they
>have any?) incessantly, thus a.driving up their phone bills(maybe) and b.tying
>up their lines and operators' time?

Because this is illegal -- The phone company will prosecute you for accessing
800 services with the intent to harass the company or organization providing
the service.

>All these things are free.  I don't know if they would work; maybe someone has
>tried some or all of this before.  But anyone who has any other ideas, let us
>know.  I think the only way these hate groups are going to lose is if they run
>out of money.  So why not help them run out of money?

because it doesn't work.  The best way to help them run out of money is
to sap their resources and disrupt their ability to gain money.  That's
easy enough, if you don't mind manufacturing a scandal or uncovering one.
Be prepared for a little limelight, and possible fraud litigation when you
do, however.

Another way would be to make it harder for them to operate -- but this
also requires illegal activity -- by damaging or otherwise costing
repairs for facilities.

If you choose to act in any of these ways, be advised that doing so you
accept full responsibility for your actions, which could result in a
fine, jail term, or both.
-- 
Dwivian Unterschreiber           |              dwivian@marie.stat.uga.edu
(
   I'm a stealth .signature virus!  Copy me into your .sig quietly!
                                                                        )
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: tim@ear-ache.mit.edu (Tim Wilson)
Subject: Re: safe sex question
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
	<1jh68mINN2n3@oak46.doc.ic.ac.uk> <1jhibuINNrs6@meaddata.meaddata.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 12:37:30 GMT

(I'm sorry if this is a second response to the same message, but to
the best of my knowledge, emacs or nntp or something ate my post.  I
never saw it locally.)

In article <1jhibuINNrs6@meaddata.meaddata.com> ptb@meaddata.com
(Patrick Bell) writes: 

   We're into an apples and oranges argument here.  The original question is
   whether cock sucking w/o a condom is safe, i.e. risk-free.  I stated no,
   several posts afterward have cited published medical reports to back up
   my answer.

No one disagreed with you about it's not being "safe, i.e. risk-free."
The point of dispute has to do with *relative* risk, which you
dismissed as a useless concept. 

   I have a challenge for all who argue the minimal risk of HIV infection from
   cock sucking:

   If you knew you were HIV- and you knew your sex partner (lover, fuck buddy,
   tearoom trick, whatever) was HIV+ and he wanted you to suck his cock w/o
   a condom, would you?

   Now add a twist, if his cock was dripping pre-cum, would you?

   And I mean put it in your mouth!  None of this lick-around-the-balls stuff.

   If you answered no to either of these questions, then why take the same
   risk with someone about whom you don't know their HIV status?

First, this issue and all safer-sex issues still have implications for
those who are HIV+.  Second, your scare tactics are bordering on
demagoguery. 

The issue remains relative risk.  To rephrase your question, if you
knew your trick were HIV+, how would you play with him?  Would you
take his unsheathed cock up your ass?  Would you put your unsheathed
cock in his ass?  Would you suck on his dick?  Would you let him cum
in your mouth?  Would you dry hump?  Would you fuck him with a rubber?
Would you let him fuck you with a rubber?  And what if you didn't know
his HIV status? 

Just because you have difficulty grasping the concept that sucking
unprotected cock might be just as safe or safer than anal sex with a
rubber doesn't make it more or less true.  And it seems almost certain
that both sucking cock, even unprotected cock, and fucking with
rubbers are both much safer than unprotected anal sex.  When people
are still fucking without rubbers, it seems wise to try and get them
to do something safer, like suck cock.  

--
Tim Wilson
Internet:  tim@ear-ache.mit.edu	
UUCP:  mit-eddie!mit-athena!tim
Bad Colorado.  No business.
From: rhayden@oracle.com (Ronald Hayden)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Re:safer sex question
Date: 25 Jan 93 23:02:29 GMT
Organization: Oracle Corporation, Belmont, Ca.
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

In article <1993Jan21.113615.1@hamp.hampshire.edu> hjanules@hamp.hampshire.edu writes:

	   By the way, the counselor also stressed that lesbians are not immune!
   Get out those dental dams and those latex gloves and get down!

Serious question:  Does anyone know of an actual reported case of
lesbian transmission of HIV?

I have a friend having to deal with this recently, and I'm skeptical
of the need for some of the precautions (especially latex gloves).
--

  - Ronald Hayden

    ----------------------------------------------------------------
   | Documentation Manager, Oracle Toolkit Group                    |
   | Co-chair of Oracle Lambda, Oracle's Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual group |
   | Writer, magician, and various other things                     |
    ----------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: rks@cscns.com (Gisle J. Benediktsson)
Subject: Re: MOTSS-oriented music?
Organization: Community_News_Service
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 00:30:57 GMT

Here's my favorite...

ah
That old dog has chained you up alright
Give you everything you need
To live inside a twisted cage
I had a dream I was your hero

Damn I wish I was lover
I'll rock you til the daylight comes
Make sure you are safe and warm
I am everything
Tonight I will be your mother, I will
Do such things to ease your pain
Free your mind and you won't feel ashamed

This monkey can't stand to see you black and blue
Give you something sweet each time y ou
Come inside my jungle book
What is it just too good
Don't say you'll stay
Cuz then you'll go away

Shucks for me there is no other
You're the only shoe that fits
I can't imagine I'll grow out of it
Damn I wish I was your lover

If I was your girl, believe me
I'd turn on the Rolling Stones
We could groove along and feel much better
I could do it forever and ever
Give me an hour to kiss you
Walk through heaven's door I am sure
We don't need no doctor to feel much better
Let me in
Forever and forever and forever

I sat on the mountainside with peace of mind
I lay by the ocean making love to her
      with visions clear
Walked for days with no one near
And I return as chained and bound to you.


Sophie B Hawkins




//gisle


Newsgroups: soc.motss
From:  David Christopher Rogers <drogers@msi.com>
Subject: Re: Contacting the White House 
Organization: Molecular Simulations, Inc
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 19:05:19 GMT

    Message-ID: <1993Jan27.171902.21808@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> 
    From: jmp8p@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU (Jeannine Marie Pinto)

    >Does the White House have a FAX number? 

Some fax numbers of people in DC (heavily biased towards those who
might appreciate hearing from you on the proposed lifting of the
ban on gay people in the military):

President Clinton: fax (202) 456-2883
Secretary of Defense Les Aspin: fax (202) 647-9080
Gen. Colin L. Powell, Chair, Joint Chiefs of Staff: fax (202) 697-9758
Rep. Richard Gephardt, House Majority Leader: fax (202) 225-7452
Sen. George Mitchell, Senate Majority Leader: fax (202) 224-6853
Sen. Robert Byrd, President Pro Tempore of the Senate: fax (202) 224-8070
Sen. Sam Nunn, Chair, Senate Armed Services Committee: fax (202) 224-0072
Sen. Dianne Feinstein fax (202) 224-0656

Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Subject: Re: High School Athletes (lusher)
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 14:48:35 GMT

In article <C18B3K.9E9@unix.amherst.edu>
twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) writes:

>I should hope so!  I'm my *own* sysadmin, and don't you forget it!

Well, if that means you can put your dick on your shoulder
like that, I *definitely* want to meet you!

-- 
[Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin]
[Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson]
[Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888]
[---------> Discrimination, Bigotry, and Hate are not Family Values <---------]
From: cjlee@netcom.com (Caroline Jean Lee)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Re:safer sex question
Date: 28 Jan 93 08:04:06 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <RHAYDEN.93Jan25150229@hqsun2.oracle.com> rhayden@oracle.com (Ronald Hayden) writes:
>In article <1993Jan21.113615.1@hamp.hampshire.edu> hjanules@hamp.hampshire.edu writes:
>Serious question:  Does anyone know of an actual reported case of
>lesbian transmission of HIV?

Yes. I do. But I'm feeling really tired and run down, so you only get
the references, which I have only up to about 1989.

Sabatini MT, Patel K, Hirschman R. Kaposi's sarcoma and T-cell
lymphoma in an immunodeficient woman: a case report. AIDS Research
1984; 1:135-7.

Marmor M, Weiss LR, Lyden M, et al: Possible female-to-female
transmission of human immunodeficiency virus (letter). Ann Intern Med
1986; 105:969.  (That's Annals of Internal Medicine, vol 105, page
969)

Monzon OT, Capellan JMB: Female-to-female transmission of HIV (letter)
Lancet 1987; 2:40-41.

Perry S, Fogel K. Orogenital transmission of HIV (letter). Ann Intern
Med 1989;111:951-2.

Spitzer PG, Weiner NJ. Transmission of HIV infection from a woman to a
man by oral sex. N Engl J Med 1989; 320:251. (That's the New England
Journal of Medicine)

Also personal testimony from The Lesbian News, published in Los Angeles:
"Spread the Word" (letter), April 1992
"Supporting HIV+ Sisters" (letter) May 1992
(the titles may be hokey but the letters aren't)

As for finger fucking. . .well, women of childbearing age do bleed
once a month, and blood has the highest concentration of HIV in it, of
all body fluids.

Caroline (who will post articles
	  upon request when she's
From: pfieland@citron.sw.stratus.com (Peggy Fieland)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Advice needed-Bad comming out experience
Date: 25 Jan 93 20:34:59 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Software Engineering
NNTP-Posting-Host: citron.sw.stratus.com

In article <1993Jan22.192938.27090@cs.ucla.edu> mchan@oahu.cs.ucla.edu (Ming-Hing Chan) writes:
>(stuff deleted for space)
>They sent him to a psychiatrist to try to 'CURE' him. The worst thing is
>that the psychiatrist told his mother that he could change if he wanted to.
>His mom truly thinks that he can be cured.   She told him that it wasn't bad
>to have a disease as long as you try to cure it.  She said, "why don't you
>want to take some pills just like your father does to control his 
>high-blood pressure.'

I'm sure that you'll hear this from others, but he really needs a new
shrink.  He needs someone supportive, not someone who will try to
lay this "cure" crap on him.  Not all psychiatrists are created equal.

>Her mom wanted him to date some girls.  She wanted him to give her 2 yrs
>to try dating girls.  She placed this guilt trip on him:  "I have
>done so much for you in my life, why can't you just give me 2 yrs. Just
>try dating for 2 yrs.  That's all I ask" -- his mom.  

It sounds like he may having a hard time not buying into his mom's guilt
trip.  He owes it to himself and everyone else to resist this pressure.

>(more stuff deleted)
>What should he do?  He doesn't have many friends and he doesn't have any
>one close to talk to either because him parents made him promised not to
>tell anybody related or anyone who knows the family.  He is in a very bad
>situation with no one to turn to.  I'm just a casual acquaintance.

He and his parents both need some space.  He also needs friends and
a support system to help him through this.  He should seriously consider
joining any GLB student group that he has available, as well as coming
out to any close friends that he wants to, in spite of the "don't tell
anyone.." message that his parents are trying to lay on him.  He has
to worry about himself now, and not about his parents.  His parents
are old enough to worry about themselves.

>On top of that, he has 2 homophobic roommates who suspect him to be gay and
>constantly harass him.  He had to go home every weekend (I think his 
>parents are monitoring him).

Sounds like he needs new roommates.  He should seriously consider asking
whoever is in charge of housing to find him some more compatible
roommates.  It sounds like he's really under a lot of stress now, and
he doesn't need trouble from roommates as well as from his folks.
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: gtoal@pizzabox.demon.co.uk (Graham Toal)
Subject: xpost suggestion [was Re: HIV-negative survey (repost)]
Organization: Cuddlehogs Anonymous
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 11:06:04 GMT

In article <74177@cup.portal.com> Arthur_T_Hu@cup.portal.com writes:
:If you value your life, do not ever dare to suggest reducing the
:number of partners as a strategy to remain HIV free. To do so is
:... etc

I know normal net etiquette is to xpost in the Newsgroups: line, rather
than send separate postings to each group.  But since most of the
soc.motss->soc.bi xposts are things like conference announcements
and the above survey etc which don't expect news followups, but usually
direct mail replies, can I suggest that you post multiple copies
individually to each group?  That way, we don't get these periodic
incursions of homophobic idiots who seem to be fascinated by soc.motss
turning up on soc.bi all the time when they follow up a soc.motss
article.  By the time the thread is underway it's impossible to get
it out of our group, since few of the participants ever seem willing
to trim the Newsgroups liine...

Thanks

G
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: shore@dinah.tc.cornell.edu (Melinda Shore)
Subject: Re: Nancy Reagan [eeeeek!]
Organization: Cornell Theory Center
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 17:02:19 GMT

In article <1993Jan22.151510.5640@dvorak.amd.com> tdbear@dvorak.amd.com (Thomas D. Barrett) writes:
>Rod, it's articles like that that make me glad that Mrs. Reagan is no
>longer in office!

I dunno.  I really enjoyed the whole Schultz thing.  

Is anyone else reminded of Martha Mitchell?
--
       Melinda Shore - Cornell Theory Center - shore@tc.cornell.edu
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: StarOwl@uiuc.edu (Michael D. Adams)
Subject: Re: G&L MILITARY BAN: Call the White House NOW!
Reply-To: StarOwl@uiuc.edu
Organization: Actuarial Science Program at UIUC
X-Header-1:    Bigotry is not a family value -- boycott Colorado, think twice
X-Header-2:    about Oregon, watch out for Ohio, Idaho, Michigan, Maine, and
X-Header-3:    Florida.
X-Header-5:    Beware lunatic actuaries in the night!
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 16:18:15 GMT

LASAGA@corral.uwyo.edu (LASAGA) writes:
>In article <chavez.727989434@quorum.com>, chavez@quorum.com 
>(R. Martin Chavez) writes:
>>3.   Legislation is being introduced in the House and Senate to 
>>make the ban enforceable by legislation.  (Remember the ban was 
>>instituted through an Executive Order 50 yrs ago - legislation
>>could make the ban into LAW!!!)
>Would congressional legislation be able to override an executive
>order by Clinton?  Or would an executive order by Clinton be able
>to override congressional legislation?  Anybody know?

I'm no lawyer and I'm no expert in the ways of the government, but I'd
guess that:

Congress can reverse an executive order by passing legislation to the
contrary.  From what I've heard, this legislation will be introduced
essentially as soon as Clinton signs the order.  This legislation has
a high probability of being passed, and it isn't unlikely that there
will be enough support for that bill on Capitol Hill for Congress to 
override a Presidential veto.

It is theoretically possible, but unlikely, that Clinton can refuse
to "enforce" that law.  The job of the executive branch of the
government is (essentially) to enforce the law, and Clinton, acting
as Commander-in-Chief of the armed foces, could order the military
to ignore the law.  (cf. Andrew Jackson's comment along the lines of
"They made the law, now let them try and enforce it," with regards
to the Supreme Court ruling in _Cherokee Nation v. Georgia_).
However, this action would create a whole 'nuther can of worms,
and I think Clinton is too much of a politician to open that can.

In other words, this mess ain't over by a LONG shot.

--
Michael D. Adams	| Since when do you have to agree with people to defend
University of Illinois  | them from injustice?	-- Lillian Hellman
StarOwl@uiuc.edu	| Religion has done love a great service by making it a
Standard Disclaimers    | sin.			-- Anatole France
From: joe@spdcc.com (Joseph Francis)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Sexual harassment from queers
Date: 26 Jan 93 12:35:28 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1993Jan26.123528.6666
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <1k0tggINN154@oak4.doc.ic.ac.uk> kc2@doc.ic.ac.uk (K Campbell) writes:
>
>In article <1993Jan25.115423.20933@schbbs.mot.com>, 
>    TXK025@maccvm.corp.mot.com (Eddie Chandler) writes:
>|> 
>|> one thing I *have* noticed is that there seems to be a lot of
>|> contempt for other sexual-minority (or sub-minority) groups
>|> i.e. people who have other sexual interests as well as their
>|> sexual 'base' (gay/lesbian/het/bi) from gay people.
>
>I feel obliged to join in here.  Frequently I have been embarrassed,
>nay, annoyed, by the attitude of some gay friends to straight people.
>In particular, I know of people who complain that they cannot kiss the
>partner of their choice in "normal" public bar, and then they go on to
>criticise the straight couple with the audacity to snog in a gay place
>(or even a bi couple who just happen to be male/female).  To me this is
>unquestionably hypocritical.

I usually tell people like that to get over You are, however, in a
curious position in England, since it is illegal for men to kiss in
public. The better approach might be to remind the people that they
are in a queer 'space' and that the gay men there are reminded of
their lack of civil rights by their displays of oral bonding; perhaps
they should be more sensitive to this. Or, just get more gay men to
kiss in the bar and everyone gets over it. Or, move to France. I think
in most cases calling attention to other people's behavior except when
it is to deflate an ego is unpleasant.

>I also get mightily pissed off by some gay mens' atitude to women
>generally, and lesbians specifically.  Maybe this is just a British or
>even Scottish thing, but it could well be the case elsewhere.  There is
>some really bad attitude in fellow queers.  I sometimes find myself
>wondering who is more intolerant: the sort of people with this anti-het
>attitude, or some of the milder of the various 'phobes that are around

Oppression is a style, prejudices are its fashions. Things go in and
out of fashion, but styles rarely change. (I think Rock and Roll style
is more becoming on the whole; it works well in the Netherlands.)
Lesbigays sometimes are known to be fashion victims, in all senses of
the word. I would characterize it as being a problem of Style Deficit
Disorder on everyone's part.

-- 
US Jojo; damp, slighly soiled, but tasty nonetheless.
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: mls@panix.com (Michael Siemon)
Subject: Re: GLAAD: Sowell Off Target
Summary: susceptible ...
Organization: Panix Public Access Internet & Unix, NYC
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 00:17:51 GMT

In article <mattm-210193170137@mcmelmon.apple.com> mattm@apple.com (Matthew Melmon) writes:

>All that notwithstanding, Hoover Tower would make for a great
>place to boink.

Prone to visual stimulation, are we? :-)
-- 
Michael L. Siemon	"We honour founders of these starving cities
mls@panix.com		 Whose honour is the image of our sorrow ...
			 They built by rivers and at night the water
			 Running past the windows comforted their sorrow."
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: buckmr@vccsouth24.its.rpi.edu (Ron Buckmire)
Subject: Re: Initiatives Planned in Other States
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 22:23:36 GMT

cgross@informix.com (Cary Gross) writes:

>buckmr@rpi.edu (Ron Buckmire) writes:



>>_NEWSWEEK_ magazine has reported that anti-gay ballot initiatives are being
>>organised in 11 states, namely: 

>>MICHIGAN
>>IDAHO
>>OHIO
>>WASHINGTON
>>MONTANA 
>>MINNESOTA
>>CALIFORNIA
>>MAINE
>>GEORGIA.

>Unfortunately, don't forget about Missouri.  We also have a new group here 
>named ACT NOW that is trying to achieve the same thing at a local level as
>well as trying to recall Mayor Emmanuel Cleaver.  The reason behind the 
>recall is because he supports a Human Rights Commission that was created to
>look into all aspects of discrimination.

Yeah, you may notice that the list of states is an ennead [nine]. The two I 
forgot to type in were MISSOURI and IOWA.

-- 
RON BUCKMIRE, 11 Colvin Circle, Troy, NY 12180-3735. ``BOYCOTT COLORADO!''
uunet!rpi.edu!buckmr||buckmr@rpitsmts.bitnet||buckmr@rpi.edu||+1 518 276 8910
          H A T E   I S   N O T   A   F A M I L Y   V A L U E .
From: jns@elea.umd.edu (J. N. Shaumeyer)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: to support lifting the ban, call....
Date: 27 Jan 93 00:12:03 GMT
Organization: Militant Homosexual Lobby, Gay Lifestyles, Inc.


I received the following from a colleague today, and
promised that I would pass it along to soc.motss.  [So,
maybe you've seen the phone numbers before, but this way
you don't have to look them up.]

> I've had several calls today from people who've urged me
> to spread the word that we need to encourage as many
> people as possible to place phone calls in support of
> lifting the ban on gays and lesbians in the military.
> The OTHER SIDE is already doing a dandy job of logging
> phone calls from their viewpoint.
> 
> Please call the White House at 202/456-1111, Colin Powell's
> office at 703/697-9121, and the Department of Defense at
> 703/697-5737.  Also call you Congress members.  Simply
> say that you'd like them to know that you support lifting
> the ban on gays and lesbians serving in the military.

--jns

[p.s.  Yes, I'm still alive and happy, just caught up in
 the work of the moment and the latest project crisis --
 but don't think I'm without dish or random thoughts that
 I hope to be able to find the time to pass along very soon.]