HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: news.admin,news.groups
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 10 Nov 1992 16:20:34 GMT
Followup-To: news.admin
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

In article <1992Nov10.002728.5233@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>It doesn't work perfectly. It's unworkable if only for your stubborn
>adherence. 

It's worked fine, unchanged, for the past two years, for a few hundred group
creations and a few tens of reorgs. YOU are the one demanding a change, and
tossing out a validly conducted vote. The burden of proof is on YOU. So far,
you have failed to meet it.

>There you have it. They *have* demonstrated that they care, but not 
>according to your notion or timetable. That, I guess, makes them wrong, huh?

They care no more than someone who didn't vote on or before 3 November for
their choice of President. They have no more right to complain about the
results.

>Demonstrably and admittedly false. I cite this example as one. The voter
>population was skewed. 

I have admitted no such thing, and would appreciate it greatly if you'd stop
implying that. The process is fair, and was fairly, openly, and properly
conducted.

>Only according to your prescribed rules. Most people don't have time to
>remain glued to news.groups. 

That is not necessary. All that is required is to participate in discussions
related to the group of interest, and all THAT requires is not ignoring RFDs
and CFVs when they appear.

>>I've dealt with your central issue; you've simply ignored it.
>But not as a representative of the people. 

Who, exactly, appointed you as the representative of the people? I contend
that I am representing the users of the net more than you are, for I represent
those who cared enough to express an opinion, and not just the few disaffected
readers of one newsgroup.
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by stupidity.
     We survived Jimmy Carter; we'll (probably) survive Bill Clinton.
From: c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
Newsgroups: news.admin
Subject: clarinet clips
Date: 6 Nov 92 21:03:11 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Delco Electronics Corp.


Hi folks,

I wonder what the restrictions on the redistribution of Clarinet
news material. I know about the ones that you can't forward the
stuff downstream, but how about clipping articles and re-posting
to other news groups?

Thanks,

Spiros
-- 
Spiros Triantafyllopoulos                    c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com
Software Technology, Delco Electronics       striantafyll@kosds1.gm.hac.com
GM Hughes Electronics, Kokomo, IN 46904      [A Different Kind of Disclaimer]
Xref: sparky news.admin:8469 news.sysadmin:1415 alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.d:8980 news.admin.policy:277
From: isr@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Michael S. Schechter - ISR group account)
Newsgroups: news.admin,news.sysadmin,alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.d,news.admin.policy
Subject: Re: a.b.p.e. distribution (was, Re: Does USENET condone CHILD
Keywords: Pedophelia Child Pornography Porn Immoral Illegal
Date: 10 Nov 92 16:59:42 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY

In article <1992Nov9.145214.19489@ms.uky.edu> kherron@ms.uky.edu (Kenneth Herron) writes:
>josh@cqs.washington.edu (Josh Hayes) writes:

>1	alt/binaries/multimedia
>12414	alt/binaries
>
>This is on a monday with a two-day expiry time.  Volume is always lower
>after a weekend; that last number could easily hit 20 megs by friday.
>(Not to mention the occasional volume surges.  It's quite common to
>receive over 5 megs in a.b.p.e in one day.)
>
As a research department computing manager, it never ceases to amaze me that
the Central Computing types, with multi-million-dollar budgets whine about
a few hundred meg of storage, that would be used for their entire campus...
I bet the secretary of the campus computing director has a larger
hard disk than the partition allocated for News.... Well? what are they?
There is NO excuse for a major facility to complain about lack of
disk space these days. Print one less stupid flyer to be mailed out to
your campus glorifying your computer center; Buy resonable CPU's for
secretaries instead of 486/33's or Q950's; Network your office printer;
Any of these are unnecesary waste of money carried out in MOST 
'central' computer sites. And any of them buy you a gigabyte.
It's just where you want to spend your money: for toys for yourself&
your staff  -or- for your users, you are paying for all of it.
Xref: sparky news.admin:8444 news.groups:21008 rec.music.synth:18188 news.admin.policy:261
From: jaapjl@tab00.larc.nasa.gov (J Lee Jaap)
Newsgroups: news.admin,news.groups,rec.music.synth,news.admin.policy
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 10 Nov 1992 15:42:20 GMT
Organization: AS&M Inc
	<1992Nov6.235752.25016@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>
	<BxBq1w.7Cu@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>
	<JAAPJL.92Nov9100515@cmb00.larc.nasa.gov>
	<1992Nov9.193141.2681@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>
Reply-To: J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@larc.nasa.gov>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cmb00.larc.nasa.gov
In-reply-to: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov's message of Mon, 9 Nov 1992 19:31:41 GMT

In article <1992Nov9.193141.2681@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>,
dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:
   What's wrong with me trying to fix it now?

The vast majority of admins have chosen to follow the Guidelines, in
the absence of system demonstrably better for the net.

Although you did not have precedent, you have brought your case to
USENET court, so to speak.  The witnesses (who chose to speak) have
been heard, and Dave Lawrence, as judge (, jury, and executive :-) has
ruled against the plaintiff.  His judgment has been revealed as
follows (edited for space):

>>Control: newgroup rec.music.makers.synth
>>From: tale@uunet.uu.net (David C Lawrence)
>>Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 13:48:43 GMT
>>Message-ID: <BxGBp8.HKB@uunet.uu.net>
>>
>>[r.m.s will be rmgrouped three months hence. -jlj]

Practically, this answers your question as well (at least in this
particular forum), since r.m.m.s has been created on most of USENET.

However, you do have the right to issue an RFD to rename it back.  I
know the Guidelines do not address this type of proposal
(re-renaming), but I think the net would not accept such a suggestion
until after six months.  (My interpretation would extend the idea of
the six-month wait for a failed vote to be proper for a discussion to
undo a valid vote.  It could also be argued that the vote "failed"
from your point of view.)

You can also propose, in news.admin.policy, to amend the Guidelines.
Some discussion on your ideas has already been presented in this
thread, and I suggest that further discussion be delayed until this
proposal is made.

My advice at present to you, FWIW, is to stop being an obstructionist
to the expressed will of the net, by which I mean the properly-
conducted vote.  At this point, I agree with others that you are
harming those you claim to help, if you insist on fracturing the synth
discussion.  The net has adapted to renamings in the past, and will do
so in this case as well.

This is the last post I'll make in this thread, unless new (IMO)
arguments are presented.  I think tale has settled it.

(IDOTNP-FAE --NOT!  :-)
--
J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@LaRC.NASA.Gov> +1 804/864-2148
    employed by, not speaking for, AS&M Inc, at
         NASA LaRC, Hampton VA 23681-0001
From: root@templar.une.edu.au (System PRIVILEGED Account)
Newsgroups: news.admin
Subject: Re: INN
Date: 6 Nov 92 04:44:13 GMT
Organization: UNE - Orange Agricultural College
NNTP-Posting-Host: banjo.une.edu.au

From article <1992Nov3.132439.20934@cerberus.ulaval.ca>, by news@cerberus.ulaval.ca:
> 	A few days ago, someone talked to me about INN (InterNetNews).
> It is supposed to be faster than NNTP.  Is there someone that had
> some experiences with INN?

I installed INN on our DECsystem 3100 running Ultrix 4.2a last month.
There were a few minor problems, some Ultrix specific, and one major one:
my previous inxeperience with news software of any kind :-). However it
has been running now for 2 weeks without problems, and I have found it very
easy to maintain.

We are getting an NNTP news feed from a site running B-news, so far without
problems. Not having used any other news software, I can't comment on the
relative merits of INN, except to say that it appears to work well.

BTW, I believe NNTP is a protocol for transporting news, not an actual news
server package. The INN ditribution includes an implementation of NNTP.

__
t j regan
Newsgroups: news.admin,rec.music.synth
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 09:01:22 GMT

jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
>...and that smaller number will be directly responsible for fragmenting the
>propagation of the group.

Well, if you folks won't budge an inch then neither will I. Nyahh. 

>You've argued many things, and each one has been methodically shot down in
>flames. 

Your opinion. The central argument I've had...none of you have touched. 
I'll say it again: "what about the users of rec.music.synth? Don't you care
about them?"

I've been dancing with your notions of guidelines as hard as I can to
get it through your bueraucratic heads that there is an inequity here.
I thought I was dealing with rational folk who might have a chance of 
perhaps considering that maybe there was an inequity in how it was handled.

Now I'm starting to learn that I appear to be dealing with people who's 
only concern is their stubborn control over the newsgroup space and the
holy Guidelines. Are you also going to admit that there is a class system
in USENET?

>The process was completely open to participation from anyone who was affected.
>Those who chose to participate were listened to. Those who chose not to were
>not. It's really that simple.

Blatantly false. I participated and I'm not being listened to. If you really
listened to what I was saying, then you'd deal with my central issue (see
above). You haven't as of yet. 
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

Common sense and a sense of humor are the same thing, moving at
different speeds.  A sense of humor is just common sense, dancing.
From: trsnyder@mcs.Drexel.edu (Bob Snyder)
Newsgroups: news.admin
Subject: Re: Guidelines discussion: RFD
Date: 8 Nov 92 04:13:33 GMT
Organization: Drexel University, Dept. of Math. and Comp. Sci.

>>>>> In article <567@ulogic.UUCP>, hartman@ulogic.UUCP (Richard M.
>>>>> Hartman) writes:

Richard> Is a msg w/ the subject line "RFD: ...." a sufficiently clear
Richard> means of notifying a group about a change that may affect
Richard> them?  The initials RFD, CFV etc are clear to the news admins
Richard> in new.groups who have read the guidelines and are watching
Richard> for such things.  But using INITIALS to try and get the point
Richard> across to a bunch of musicians that got on the net to talk
Richard> about synthesizers may not be clear.

Much better than "Request for Discussion: rec.m".  Some newsreaders truncate
Subject lines.  and generally a subject line "RFD: comp.sillyness reorg" should
provoke enough interest to be read.

Richard> Should the messages that are posted to the affected groups have
Richard> more detailed, unobfuscated "Subject:" lines?  e.g. (1/2 :) ) :

	> Subject: Your news group may be renamed!!! Speak up NOW!

So when I go to read news.announce.newgroups, I see how many of these headers?
:-)

Bob
Newsgroups: news.admin,news.groups,rec.music.makers,rec.music.synth
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: How to notify newsgroups that are affected by RFD/CFV
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 14:39:20 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL
Followup-To: news.admin,news.groups

According to cuz@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu (Cousin It):
>Just in this effort alone, you would have had to have had AT LEAST 5
>group names in the subject line...

Why is everyone assuming that there must be _one_ article to please
everyone?  Why not multiple articles:

    news.announce.newgroups
       CFV on rec.music.* reorganization

    rec.music.synth
       The vote to rename rec.music.synth is under way!
       "Please read news.announce.newgroups for info"

    rec.music.makers
       The vote to rename rec.music.makers is under way!
       "Please read news.announce.newgroups for info"

etc.
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
   "I am truly as big a genius as all other Rush fans." -- Bruce Bufalini
Newsgroups: news.admin,news.groups,rec.music.makers,rec.music.synth
From: rorschak@daimi.aau.dk (Jesper Lauridsen)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Xanth Watch
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 22:46:47 GMT

rca@Ingres.COM (Bob Arnold) writes:

>Dave Hayes is asserting that even following the guidelines to the letter
>isn't good enough.  He is also says that the CFVs/CFDs did not
>include r.m.synth in the subject line, and I have not seen anybody
>disagree with him (have I missed this?).  So, perhaps Dave is right on
>this assertion.

The CFV contained 6 votes, if all those had been put into the subject line
the you wouldn't have had a subject line - just a bloody mess.

>This mess would not have happened if Rich (remember, he did an honest
>and careful job) had mentioned r.m.synth in the CFV/CFD subject line.  

All those from the other 5 groups would have cried foul.

>Dave is also asserting that r.m.synth readers are being unfairly
>victimized by the vote procedures.

>Perhaps this is true, and perhaps not.  Dave thinks it's true though,
>and is assembling evidence to support this assertion.  Good - this
>is healthy.

The subject line was just as relevant to the readers of rec.music.synth
as to the readers of the alt groups. They figured out what to do, and
I have no reason to believe that they are any smarter than the average
rec.music.synth reader. Come on, 271 people voted on this proposal -
Dave Hayes claims he has 14 unsatified rec.music.synth readers.
Doesn't those figures tell you something.
-- 
Jesper Lauridsen        |  I survived the rec.arts.sf-lovers split
rorschak@daimi.aau.dk   | 
Xref: sparky news.admin:8287 news.sysadmin:1362 news.groups:20260 alt.config:6655
From: flee@cs.psu.edu (Felix Lee)
Newsgroups: news.admin,news.sysadmin,news.groups,alt.config
Subject: Re: "general" is a bad name for a newsgroup
Date: 5 Nov 92 04:09:16 GMT

> If you have a local newsgroup called "general", you will sometimes find
> articles from other sites in that newsgroup.

This is the "newsgroup splicing" problem, which I've been thinking
about, but do not have a working solution yet.

Either: 1. all newsgroup names must be globally unique;
    or: 2a. sites can carry "different" groups with the same name.

A related proposition:
        2b. sites can carry the "same" group under different names.

Both 2b and 2a are necessary to support transparent newsgroup
renaming.  Implementing this requires somewhat different news
protocols.
--
Newsgroups: news.admin,rec.music.synth
From: brad@clarinet.com (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Re: clarinet clips
Organization: ClariNet Communications Corp.
Distribution: usa
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1992 09:32:13 GMT

In article <1992Nov6.210311.21093@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com> c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos) writes:
>
>Hi folks,
>
>I wonder what the restrictions on the redistribution of Clarinet
>news material. I know about the ones that you can't forward the
>stuff downstream, but how about clipping articles and re-posting
>to other news groups?

No this can't be done for ClariNet articles, or indeed *any* copyrighted
item, which includes 99.9% of all stories from newspapers and magazines,
without permission.

However, it is often easy to get permission if you write us (or other
publishers) and ask.   Write to clarinews@clarinet.com
-- 
Brad Templeton, ClariNet Communications Corp. -- Sunnyvale, CA 408/296-0366
Newsgroups: news.admin,rec.music.synth
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 19:26:25 GMT

chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:

>According to dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov:
>>I'll say it again: "what about the users of rec.music.synth? Don't you care
>>about them?"
>What about them?  

Are you again implying that there is a class system here on USENET.

>I don't think they're being harmed at all.  

Did you ask them? I did. I've got 14 people and counting who oppose
the name change. 

>Without adherence to procedure, Usenet becomes alt.  No group's users
>would be well served by such a degeneration.

With blind adherence to procedure, Usenet might as well become alt. 
-- 
Xref: sparky news.groups:21436 rec.music.synth:18362
From: lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble)
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth
Subject: How the name change affects the users of rec.music.synth
Date: 12 Nov 92 23:14:06 GMT
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: None for me, thanks . . . I'm driving.

strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom) writes:

> I still don't have r.m.m.s. at my site.  Should I be complaining to my
> local site?  Or is this the result of some netnews administrators' not
> having passed the group creation message down to my site? 

Here's what's happening at the moment.

The creation message for rec.music.makers.synth went out several days ago,
and by now should have reached any system that's also gotten this posting.
Some machines are configured to automatically create new groups as soon
as they arrive at the machine, some aren't.  At machines that aren't, the
group needs to be hand-created by a local admin, which might take a few
days -- admins have lives too.  If you don't see it created by, say,
sometime next week, you might want to ask your admin about it.

In the meantime, rec.music.synth will be around for awhile.  The newsgroup
is currently scheduled to be removed sometime in early February, which
should give everyone plenty of time to arrange for any changes that they
need to make as a result of the renaming.  For people at normal Usenet
sites, all you need to do is subscribe to rec.music.makers.synth when it's
created on your machine (most newsreaders will let you know when new
groups are created).  Once you're subsribed to the new group it's a good
idea to crosspost between r.m.s and r.m.m.s two groups for awhile and then
as the rec.music.synth removal date gets closer, start posting just to
rec.music.makers.synth.  This helps to migrate the discussion over to the
new group.

Some sites will, as soon as the new group is created, alias the old group
into the new one.  (That means that when you're reading r.m.m.s, you'll
also automatically see messages that were posted to r.m.s.  You might
consider suggesting this to your site admin as well, as it makes things
go much smoother.)  Some newsreaders (such as nn) can do this as well.

> I want there to be one group with all the synth discussion.

The faster everyone changes over to using rec.music.makers.synth, the
easier the changeover will be.  Things will be a little confusing in
the two groups, but only for a short time. 

I hope this explains a few things.

--
Lazlo (lazlo@triton.unm.edu)
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth
From: cathyf@is.rice.edu (Catherine Anne Foulston)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: Rice University
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 20:46:24 GMT

In article <1992Nov7.214704.2624@metrosoft.com> gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:
>In article <7769@lib.tmc.edu> jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)  
>writes:

>> The situation is as fair as a real-life election, and quite probably  
>more so.

>If this were true, California ballots would be labelled Nevada and made to  
>look like junk mail.

I think if this were true, the Texas official who controls oil and gas
regulation would be called the Texas Petrochemical Commissioner.
But he or she is not.  The official is the Texas Railroad Commissioner.
So let's say I didn't vote on TRC because I don't care about railroads,
but I do care about oil regulation.  When I find out what the TRC really
does, shall I demand a revote because of all the people who didn't
know that they might be affected by the outcome of the TRC vote?

-- 
Cathy Foulston + Rice University + Network & Systems Support + cathyf@rice.edu
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: To keep the r.m.s rename is _not_ elitist (was Re: *BAD*...)
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 06:47:17 GMT

chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
>    How to Create a New Usenet Newsgroup

That should be "How to avoid getting your newsgroup changed without your
knowledge"...or "You too can participate in newsgroup politics". 

>>> There is no cure for _intentional_ ignorance.
>>Proving "_intentional_ ignorance" is difficult. Why even bother when we  
>>can constructively do something to make the process better?
>Constructiveness is my middle name.  But trying to invalidate the
>r.m.s vote is _not_ constructive.  I wish you (and Dave) would stop.

And we wish you and Jay would consider it.

Got a penny?
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

       "When you are in it up to your ears, keep your mouth shut."  
Newsgroups: news.groups,comp.ai,comp.ai.neural-nets,sci.engr.control
From: elias@fitz.TC.Cornell.EDU (Doug Elias)
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.ai.fuzzy
Organization: Software and Consulting Support Group, Cornell Theory Center,
	C.U.
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 15:37:46 GMT


i, too (following Erik), see fuzzy theory as a general "tool" which
can be used within many different domains, AI being just one.
For the same reasons, i'd just as soon it was not relegated to the
"comp" portion, either, but moved over to "sci.fuzzy_set_theory" (the
shorter "sci.fuzzy" would have the loonies crawling out of the
woodwork, unfortunately).

i vote YES for a newsgroup, and will participate regardless of where
it ends up...

doug
--
#  ____    |Internet:   elias@tc.cornell.edu
#dr _|_)oug|USmail:     Sci.Comp.Support/Cornell Theory Center
#  (_|     |            737 TheoryCtrBldg/C.U./Ithaca/N.Y./14853-3801
#  (_|__   |MaBelle:    607-254-8686   Fax: 607-254-8888