From: mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: USA go home (Was Re: Shooting)
Date: 16 Apr 92 17:11:11 GMT
Article-I.D.: dog.22745
Reply-To: mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
Organization: N.I.C.E.
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.128.60

Aengus Lawlor writes:
>blood-thirstyness, the "average" score for American posters on the topic of
>Northern Ireland would probably be higher than the average for the group as

Maybe.  I'm not keeping count.  There are not all that many different
names writing back & forth about this, I don't think, not much
of a sample.  I'm not bloodthirsty.  I'm no IRA/British/Irish apologist
either.

>>(Pretzel logic indeed!)  In a Nietzschian sense, yes, I suppose so.
   ^^^^^^^ You don't remember writing "twisted logic"?

>Maybe somebody should forward this to the compilers of scb's American-
>English dictionary. Pretzel Logig in American, Sarcasm in English.

Indeed, Brit/"doing a favor" == Amer/"Making you stronger thru suffering" :-)
Well, we have the Puritans in our heritage here, you know.  It makes
perfect sense to me.

>George and Gary's "history" of Ireland was about 100 years out of date when
>they got it, and probably pretty distorted by the time it reached them.

I've got to let you all in on something.  I hope this won't come as
a big shock to anyone.   I had an above-average education compared
to most Americans my age, not the best, but better than most; I didn't
appreciate it much but I did pay attention (or else).  I went to
Catholic schools (one class half the boys were named Mike & the nuns
all were named O'something), & I went to good public schools.

We never studied anything at all about Ireland.  Not once.  Not one
page.  Not one sentence even, except to mention the origin of JFK's
family.

Now that's just one data point (or a couple thousand anyway, my
cohorts as well), & does not a theory prove, but it should suggest
something to you.  Don't bother blaming the American education system
for telling "lies" about Ireland -- it doesn't tell its students
_anything_ about their parents' countries of origin.  That reminds me --
our geography classes in elementary schools covered "in depth" places
like Iceland, Quebec, Switzerland -- spots we were all real unlikely
to have any personal or familial connection with.  Interesting, no?

Maybe you could blame our families' mythologizing.  Maybe you could
beat up the librarians for their inflammatory choices in book-buying.
You can't blame the press, because it doesn't cover Ireland.

>How about "put up or shut up!". Americans who actively support violence
>that won't affect them or their families are way out of line. That they

Disclaimer: I'm not actively or passively supporting any violence,
or doing any.

I would turn this rite back around on the apologists.  People all
around the world literally think they can get away with murder
in the running of their countries, & its nobody's business but there'n.
They miss the consequences:  places like the USA, Canada, Australia,
Brazil, & even England serve as safety valves; the locals who
can't stand any more come HERE.  They come here & they compete
for jobs, for housing in hi-price areas, for welfare services, for
college positions -- everything.  Now I don't mind this, I support
immigration to the US.  I think, tho, this is a minority viewpoint.
Also, the Irish immigrants in particular are potential competitors
for the same sorts of jobs _I_ want.  This is starting to get to the
point where my principles could conflict with my survival.  I would have to
go with the latter if things got really bad, follow me?

>America already interferes in Irish affairs. They usually don't bother to
>check the opinions of those on the recieving end. (Whether it be support

You can only expect that Americans will act in their self-interest,
not necessarily in your interest.  The above is my guess about
what they would consider their self-interest at this time --
no massive immigration.  That could change, at some other time,
when the economy is better.  If you don't want interference in
your affairs, you have to not be a problem for us.  Our gov't will
find plenty of other trouble to involve itself in.  On the other
hand, if you're not willing or able to solve your difficulties,
& we still suffer the consequences, you must expect some kind
of American involvement.  & while noble principles or your interests
will undoubtedly be considered, our interference will be attuned to 
our interests, not yours.  At least I think that's what would happen.

>for Noraid, or support for the McBride Principles). I repeat, _if_

Noraid ... I think this is another British "urban" myth, frankly;
I think they've got it mixed up with the Irish Republican Brotherhood
of a century ago.   Irish-Americans don't know Noraid from a kitchen
appliance!  Does anyone have real membership figures or a budget for
them?

As for McBride, this is _exactly_ the sort of thing you can expect.
Consider the popular movement here against apartheid in South Africa,
& how it was managed.

>ends. If the Irish and British governments agree, Americans should not
>work against that agreement.

But what if "the agreement" means massive immigration?  Sorry.
We reserve the rite to make our own decisions.  At least I hope
we're making them, not Dublin, not London, for us.

>American posters brought up the 18 million Irish Americans, and 8 presidents
>of Irish descent. They implied that this gives them the right to support

The 2 most recent IA presidents were Kennedy & Reagan.  Now can you
find 2 more pragmatic, opportunistic men?  I don't think these fellas
dreamed Irish nationalist dreams, frankly.  Cash on the barrelhead son,
more like it.  Reagan in particular was quite chummy with the
UK -- have we forgotten this?

>voilence in Northern Ireland. The ones who don't care, aren't organized

It does tell me there is a special relationship between Ireland
& places like the US (& Canada, & Australia, &c).  I don't see
how it justifies violence (& I don't remember getting that from
others' postings but I'm not going back to double check).  Maybe
it doesn't look so "special" from the Irish point of view because
it's all outflow, nothing comes back.   From the American point
of view it's been very good for the US & it's only natural to
maintain interest in the source.