HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: albert@endor.uucp (David Albert)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: 20/20 and Spanking
Date: 5 Nov 92 05:06:07 GMT
Article-I.D.: das.1992Nov5.050607.28066
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University

shack@cs.arizona.edu (David Shackelford) writes:

>(David Albert) writes:
>
> >....  I happen to believe that between the ages of
> >~3 and ~10, the only thing that matters in most cases (certainly in
> >any case in which you and the children are at home and in private and
> >there is no immediate threat to life) is _why_ the child is behaving
> >improperly, not that she is....

>But disobediance might imply a threat to life.

I did specifically rule out threats to life in the part of my article
which you quoted.  Do you advocate spanking *only* when a child is in
immediate life-threatening danger?  It certainly doesn't sound like it
from your other posts.  (Note: even in cases of life-threatening danger,
I would not spank.  I don't think it's necessary, and I think spanking
is automatically wrong-unless-necessary, hence I don't think it's right.
But if those are the only times you spank, we've been having the wrong
argument.)

David Shackleford now writes both of the following:

>If I catch a 7 YO playing with matches, he's going to get spanked.  If I
>catch him doing it again, he'll get spanked harder.

and

>The result in this situation is all that matters to me.  If you can
>achieve 100% results using another method, go ahead.  Just be sure
>either it's 100% effective or you have a good insurance policy.

It certainly sounds from your first point as if you don't expect spanking
to be a 100% effective method. If it were, why would you ever "catch him
doing it again"?  But then, since it's not 100% effective, why do you
use it?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Albert				  | Illegitimi non carborundum est.
albert@das.harvard.edu		 	  |
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: barb@sq.sq.com (Barbara Burrows)
Subject: Re: Putting Children First
Organization: SoftQuad Inc., Toronto, Canada
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 92 15:05:27 GMT

In article <1992Nov5.223441.6966@cbfsb.cb.att.com> mdw@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (mark.d.wuest) writes:
>In article <1992Nov5.101303.15767@vax5.cit.cornell.edu> tnzj@vax5.cit.cornell.edu writes:
>>My two girls are the most intensely beautiful things in the world. 
>
>You obviously NEVER met my God-daughter Jessica, my nephew Robert, or
>my nieces Ashley and Lauren!

	Or my son Jordan!

>
>Sorry for the wasted bandwidth!   ;-)

	What wasted bandwidth??!!  8-]


						| 
						| My company can get
Barbara						| its own opinions!
						|
From: elg@elgamy.uucp.taronga.com (Eric Lee Green)
Date: 4 Nov 92 17:23:06 CDT
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: 20/20 SPANKING COMPLAINT
Distribution: world
Organization: Eric's Amiga 2000 @ Home

From article <25765@optima.cs.arizona.edu>, by shack@cs.arizona.edu (David Shackelford):
> SOME kids don't respond to anything else but a spanking.  It is imperative
> that kids obey.  Therefore if spanking is the only thing that works for
> that child, then it is imperative that you spank.

This argument that "spanking is the only thing that works" is bogus. I've
taught kids who, frankly, had their parents cowering in terror, and managed
to get an orderly classroom with students learning.

In fact, referrals out of my center (to a residential psychiatric hospital)
are almost non-existent. I think there's been only one in the past five
years, for a student who was psychotic and dissociated (i.e., did not
connect any consequences to his particular behavior -- you could have beat
this kid senseless and you still wouldn't have "taught him a lesson", there
was something physically wrong with his brain). Meanwhile, I have had the
regular classroom teachers tell me that the students we mainstream into
their classrooms are model students, exactly like they want their "regular"
students to be.

It's not easy, and it's very time consuming. But it works. I was amazed. I
still am. But it forever broke me of the notion that you had to hurt a
child to get the child to obey.

--
 Eric Lee Green  elg@elgamy.taronga.com   Dodson Elementary
 (713) 664-6446                             Houston, TX
                "Kids are kids, no matter what"
From: shannah@netcom.com (Teri Miller)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: critical relatives
Date: 9 Nov 92 23:46:40 GMT
Article-I.D.: netcom.1992Nov9.234640.17487
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <24113@alice.att.com> llf@alice.UUCP (alice!llf) writes:
>
>day.  I'd like to go back and do any number of things over.  Not ignoring
>advice I found unpalatable being one of them.  Learning the difference between
>fussing and crying is another one.  Not, of course, to say that
>you should neglect your infant, but there is a line, which you need to define,
>where you should allow your infant to work things out on his own.
>
>As far as parental advice goes, you need to decide what makes sense and what
>doesn't, independent of the fact that it's your folks who are ragging on you.

I have been thinking about this, and I realized that if my friend Mary
were to give me the advice to just put the baby down for a while, I would
be grateful.  If my mom gave me the same advice, I'd probably be
resentful.  I had to think about just why that's true: after all, mom
had 3 more kids than Mary did....

Presentation is the key, in my humble opinion.  When I'm given advice
in a downputting way, or a blaming way, or a hostile or abrupt way, I'm
likely to disregard the message as a whole.  Even when it contains useful
information.  Regardless of whom it comes from.

I've posted messages here about disregarding meddling parents, and I
think the reason I've taken such a strong stand is that what I've been
hearing is that the reasonable advice is coming wrapped up in hostile,
blaming, or downputting wrappings.  

For those who are having "parental advice problems", is the problem what
I'm describing above?  If so, has anyone found a way to change things so
that relatives can provide input while not presenting it in an 
objectionable way?

I would appreciate any advice that people can give on how to make this
transition, since this is one of my big fears....

Thanks!

*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*
Teri Miller                    tmiller@cisco.com -or- shannah@netcom.com
*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*
From: clg@cray.com (Coni Gehler)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Helpful Hints (was Re: Birth Announcement)
Date: 9 Nov 92 14:09:42 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.

In article <2383@gandalf.intel.com> linda@linda.intel.com (Linda Harbin) writes:
>In article <1decdqINN9oq@male.EBay.Sun.COM>, valjorge@leapyear.EBay.Sun.COM (Valerie Jorge) writes:
>|> 
>|> Need some helpful hints:  How do all of you
>|> manage working full time, cooking, doing
>|> laundry, picking up, dropping off, ( also
>|> have a 9YO stepdaughter who lives with us)
>|> and still have time for sleep?
>                           ^^^^^
>		<stuff deleted>
>job anyway :-).  When Andrea was a baby, I also washed her clothes at least 
>everyother day; and when possible, I washed them with the regular load. 
>		<more stuff deleted>

This brings up a question I have:  Sam is 7 months old, and I've been washing
his clothes separately, in Dreft.  When do I dare to try washing his clothes
with ours (we use Tide), and how long would it take for any adverse reaction
to show itself?  And when do I dare to use fabric softener sheets in the dryer
with his clothes?

Maybe I'm desperately grasping at straws here, but even being able to wash
Sam's clothes with ours could save me some time....

Coni Gehler
clg@cray.com
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: yasu@ll.mit.edu (Alan Yasutovich)
Subject: Re: 20/20 and Spanking
Organization: MIT Lincoln Laboratory
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 92 13:43:08 GMT

In article <cindy.134@berkp.uadv.uci.edu> cindy@berkp.uadv.uci.edu (Cindy Windham) writes:
>    I _am_ a parent, and I have a 3 1/2yo boy, who gets extremely
>    out of control after eating candy.  We've suspected it for awhile,
>    but Halloween really confirmed it.  When "under the influence",
>    he throws things at our heads, jumps from one bed to another,
>    tries to climb the walls, etc.  I am absolutely certain that there
>    would be no way to discipline him with spanking when he is on a
>    sugar-high, unless you consider "beating" the same thing as "spanking".
>    Furthermore, it wouldn't be fair to spank a child for disobedience
>    when they cannot control themselves because of something they've
>    eaten, would it?
>
>    - Cindy
>>--Mike "not a parent yet" Miller 


	Are we talking "Fiengold" again?

-- 
	Alan Yasutovich
	"inquiring  (and nosey) minds WANT TO KNOW!!!"
	I can remember when "safe sex" meant having a padded headboard!!
	Tick Tock.....Tick Tock......Tick Tock .....Tick Tock......
From: shack@cs.arizona.edu (David Shackelford)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: Anyone can use timeout...(was RE: Spanking other peoples Kids, NOT
Date: 8 Nov 92 07:39:50 GMT
Organization: U of Arizona CS Dept, Tucson

In article <24088@alice.att.com> llf@alice.UUCP (alice!llf) writes:
 >Diatribe:
 >I don't know why, but this topic always makes me see red.  Sigh.
 >
 >I guess the reason is because some of the posters on the "NEVER SPANK"
 >side write as if they believe that any spanking falls under the definition
 >of (1) bad/lazy/uncontrolled/abusive parenting, (2) child abuse, (3) parents
 >that spank don't CARE that there are alternatives to spanking, and as a
 >corellary don't care about any possible (present or future) damage to
 >their children.  Conversely, there are posters on the "spank" side who are
 >just as bad.
 [...]

 >Each child and each situation is different.  There is no way to say that
 >what works for some will work for all.

At last, a voice of reason.  As I've said in numerous mis-quoted posts,
EVERY SITUATION IS DIFFERENT!!!

Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: merle@jane.unx.sas.com (Merle Finch)
Subject: Re: Not Limiting Sweets (was Re: Halloween Stories)
Originator: merle@jane.unx.sas.com
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 13:17:17 GMT
Organization: SAS Institute Inc.


In article <119450008@hpsmtc1.cup.hp.com>, kperdue@hpsmtc1.cup.hp.com (Karla Perdue) writes:
:
:I was very interested in Judy's posting.  I have one question:
:
:  If you have had more traditional ideas about food (i.e. that some are
:  "bad") with the parents exercising control and your child in now 5 or 6,
:  has anyone had experience STARTING a "eat anything" model at that age?
:  Have their eating habits already become so fixed and dependant on the
:  parents' control that the parents must continue to exercise some control?
:  Or will they adapt and after a while and correct to eating a balanced
:  and varied diet?
:
:Thanks for any comments.
:
:Karla Perdue                 The opinions expressed are strictly my
:Mountain View, CA            own and not those of Hewlett-Packard.
:

I did not start my daughter from birth with the "eat anything" model but
instead after facing my own problems with food and the bugaboos about white
sugar and assigning good and bad characteristics to different foods, I
began the "eat anything" model when she was about 5.  We've been using this
model for about five years now and she adapted.  Let me qualify that somewhat
by saying that her eating habits were always decent; they just didn't measure
up to my extremely high standards and my phobias about raising a child with
weight problems.  Luckily for her, I realized that my weight problem did not
mean that she would have a weight problem.  My problems stemmed from childhood
trauma and no self-esteem.

She's been raised with ready and frequent expressions of love and hugs and
acceptance for being a person in her own right.  That seems to preclude the
pattern of turning to food for solace.


-- 
Merle Finch  merle@sas.com  SAS Institute Inc, SAS Campus Dr, Cary NC 27513-2414.
From: shack@cs.arizona.edu (David Shackelford)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: 20/20 SPANKING COMPLAINT
Date: 8 Nov 92 06:42:36 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: U of Arizona CS Dept, Tucson

In article <1992Nov4.214421.16647@aio.jsc.nasa.gov> cobarruvias@asd2.jsc.nasa.gov writes:
>In article <25765@optima.cs.arizona.edu> shack@cs.arizona.edu (David
>Shackelford) writes:
 >>
 >>SOME kids don't respond to anything else but a spanking.  It is imperative
 >>that kids obey.  Therefore if spanking is the only thing that works for
 >>that child, then it is imperative that you spank.
 >>
 >>SOME kids never need to be spanked.  This is fine with me, I just hope
 >>that all parents:
 >>
 >>   1)  Agree that we have the right and responsibility to teach our
 >>	children what to do/not do.
 >>
 >>   2)  Agree that at times action must be taken to ensure our message
 >>	gets through.
 >>
 >>   3)  Take whatever action is necessary for the individual child,
 >>	whether it be spanking, timeout, or anything else.
 >>
 >>   4)  Respect other people's decisions about the previous points.
 >>	Too much "spanking is bad" and maybe some idiot will make
 >>	it illegal.  Not a good idea.
 >>
 >>I'm not trying to tell you to spank your kids.  Don't tell me not
 >>to spank mine.
 >>
 >
 >David, All I am saying that if the same results can be accomplished without
 >spanking, THE VERY SAME RESULTS, then why not try them? Why not take a bit of
 >instruction via a class, audios, videos, etc? I cant think of any reason what
 >so ever except the usual "it takes to much time", "I'm too lazy", etc....

I wish you had read my post more closely, as I already answered your
question:

 >>SOME kids never need to be spanked.  This is fine with me, I just hope
 >>that all parents:

 >>   3)  Take whatever action is necessary for the individual child,
 >>	whether it be spanking, timeout, or anything else.

I'm not saying spanking is always the answer, nor am I saying I
always spank.  I'm saying it is ONE answer that SOMETIMES is the
only effective action.  I'm saying that those who try to tell me
that spanking is NEVER useful haven't seen a situation in which
it was necessary.  I view "NEVER" statements with skepticism.
From: kassover@rumsey.crd.ge.com (David Kassover)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: 20/20 and Spanking
Date: 9 Nov 92 18:56:09 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: nope

In article <1djgfrINNlo5@network.ucsd.edu> dlin@weber.ucsd.edu (Diane Lin) writes:
...
>
>	Never set your child on fire.

		unless you're part of a sideshow


>	Never throw your child off a roof.

		unless said roof is about to collapse into the fire below


>	Never hit your child with a baseball bat.

		unless said child is threatening someone with a
		butcher knife

In a few years, unless perhaps my daughter has inherited my
wife's legs, I expect to whack her regularly with a steel rod,
about .125 x .125 x 37 inches, weighing about 17 ounces.

Of course, I expect to take a few whacks, myself.



-- 
David Kassover             "Proper technique helps protect you against
uupsi!khazad!kassover	          sharp weapons and dull judges."
kassover@aule-tek.com                   F. Collins
kassover@ra.crd.ge.com
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: tigger@satyr.Sylvan.COM (Grace Sylvan)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: teething biscuits
Date: 12 Nov 92 23:12:40 GMT
Organization: Sylvan Associates

In article <BxK38s.Mtw@unix.amherst.edu> njamal@unix.amherst.edu (Nuhad Jamal) writes:

   Donna Diloreto x2231 dept302 (donna@wyse.wyse.com) wrote:
   : I've seen the threads for finger foods, but haven't seen any for infants
   : that don't have teeth yet.  Does anyone have any suggestions on what to
   : give infants who are eating baby food, and are ready for teething
   : biscuits?  The packaged Gerber biscuits seem expensive, and look like all
   : have sugar (not that I'm against sugar).

   Try the teething toast called Zweiback (sp?).  In my supermarket, they
   are found with the regular cookies and not in the baby food section.

   I'm almost positive that they don't have sugar, just corn syrup.

If you're trying to keep your baby wheat free, there are at least 2
different brands of cookies that make wheat free (and sugar free)
teething biscuits for the little ones. These are expensive, but you
need to make your choices...
-- 

Tigger (Grace Sylvan)                Mom of Katherine Yelena, 8/8/89,
tigger@satyr.sylvan.com              Corey 1/31/91; we loved him so,
                                     Robin Gregory born 2/28/92

 "It seems to me that our large goal is to find the ways to help our
 children become humane and strong."
 
              - Dr Haim Ginott quoted by Adele Faber & Elaine Mazlish
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: judy@locus.com (Judy Leedom Tyrer)
Subject: Re: Disneyland Hints
Organization: Locus Computing Corporation, Los Angeles, California
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1992 03:00:23 GMT

In article <1992Nov3.224157.11739@pmafire.inel.gov> geoff@pmafire.inel.gov (Geoff Allen) writes:
>
>Get strollers!  As a minimum, you'll want strollers for the 9-month-old
>and the 3-year-old.  We'll assume the 5-year-old's endurance is enough
>to make it through the days.

I recommend bringing your own.  The Disneyland strollers aren't that
comfortable and they don't fold up so you can't use them to reserve
your space for Fantasmic.

>
>Afternoon naps are a good idea, but Disneyland probably closes at 6pm
>these days, at least on weekdays, so don't make them *too* long.  Being

Yes, Disneyland closes at 6:00 M-F and is open until midnight Sat and Sun.
>
>>What rides should we hit first?  What rides should we avoid? 
>
>On the ``approved'' list:
>
>	It's a Small World

This is closed due to construction of "Toon Town".  So is Videopolis.

>	Star Tours (doing a ``baby swap'' for the one(s) who are too
>		small, see below if you don't know what that is; the
>		line is still worth it for the little ones)

There is no height limit so the 3 YO can go on this one.

>
>Questionable:
>
>	Pirates of the Carribbean (dark; Pirates shoot at you; two short
>		drops)

No problem with my kids.  

>	Mr. Toad's Wild Ride (scares lots of kids.  Recently voted by
>		readers of rec.arts.disney as the scariest ride at
>		Disneyland)

NO!  The scariest ride at Disneyland is Splash Mountain.  A real MUST!
>

>
>	Space Mountain
Don't go on this twice in a row if you're prone to motion sickness.

>	Mad Tea Party
The secret here is not to teach your children about spinning the tea cups.
Just sit and enjoy.


>I understand Von's has had something with the purchase of $50 or more in
>groceries.  Don't know if it's still going on or not.  (I live in
>Idaho.)  Check with a local Von's market.

That ended Nov. 1 and you're lucky it did.  The park was way too crowded
during October.


-- 
Judy Leedom Tyrer

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"	- William Blake
From: robert@jetsun.weitek.COM (Robert Plamondon)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: Examples for discussion (was Re: Plain Talk About Spanking (long))
Date: 9 Nov 92 21:42:13 GMT
Organization: WEITEK Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

>In article <1992Nov06.235228.2222640@locus.com> judy@locus.com (Judy Leedom Tyrer) writes:
>>"You tell your 6 YO that you need to vacuum the floor and he needs to pick
>>up his toys.  An hour later and the toys are not picked up."

I will presume that that six-year-old boy, like many, has an
inexhaustible wealth of indifference as to whether or not his floor
is vacuumed.  Thus, the operative statement to him (as stated in the
problem) is "*I* need to vacuum the floor" -- and that his toys are
in the way.  If his toys were still in my way when I came in with the
vacuum cleaner, I'd put them all in a box (removing them from the
path of the vacuum cleaner) and lock them away for a time (a reminder
that leaving Dad to do your job for you never works out the way you'd
like).


>>"Your 4 year old forgets to flush the toilet.  This is one of your pet
>>peeves and you really cannot allow it to continue."

The problem is not the forgetfulness, but the level of annoyance it
causes in the parent.  Making the kid go back and flush the toilet
once the misdeed is discovered will introduce an annoying
interruption to his play, and that should be enough.

>>"Your 15 year old is supposed to be home at 8 PM.  It is now 10 PM and 
>>and your child comes sauntering into the house."

Much depends on the circumstances.  I, personally, would not have the
energy to attempt to set or enforce such a ridiculously early curfew
-- so early that it doesn't reliably let him have dinner at a
friend's house.

Be that as it may.  Child comes home two hours late, what do you do?
The statement of the problem said "...into the house," so I guess my
idea about barring all the doors and windows and enjoying his
piteable wails for a while didn't work.

I also don't like using the words "responsibility" or "maturity" when
I speak to teen-agers: once you start doing that, you might as well
just say "blah blah blah blah blah" for all the listening you're
going to get.

My all-time favorite, though (assuming you're damn sure the kid is
just late, and not in trouble), is to have him come home to an empty
house, and find a note saying, "Sorry you missed us.  We're out doing
<insert his favorite activity here> and <insert his second favorite
activity here>."

	-- Robert
-- 
    Robert Plamondon, robert@weitek.COM

"Ready whenever you are, C.B.!"
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: staffan@ca.serum.kodak.com (Kenneth Staffan (x37507))
Subject: Re: Doing Laundry
Organization: Clinical Products Division, Eastman Kodak Company
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 15:03:26 GMT

In article <23951@hacgate.SCG.HAC.COM> smergen@luna.dpl.scg.hac.com (Sandra Mergen) writes:
>
>Linda Harbin wrote:
>
>>One thing I found handy was I did a load of laundry every
>>day:  whites on Monday, towels on Tuesday, dark clothes
>>on Wednesday, etc.
>
>I used to separate my laundry before the girls were born, 
>but now, since there is so much to do after work, I just
>keep throwing clothes in the washer until I have enough 
>for a load, then I do the wash.  There is everything in
>there, whites, darks, towels, etc.
>
>I guess I'm just lucky, because nothing ever runs, and my
>clothes come out nicely.

Boy, that does seem lucky.  We wash everything in cold, but have still
had some dress shirts, etc., ruined by colors bleeding.

>I couldn't even imagine having time to separate laundry.

We now have three different colored laundry hampers - (the Rubbermaid kind) -
one for darks, whites, and colors.  It doesn't really take any extra time,
you just have to hit the right basket when throwing clothes in.  When any
one gets full enough to justify a load, we do it.  We end up doing
whites more often than the others.

>Lately, it seems that I only have time to do dishes, laundry,
>take care of the kids, go to work, and collapse into bed, 
>only to wake up a few hours later to nurse the baby.

Heh, heh.  I correspond with a friend via e-mail.  We have a running joke.
When he asks how the weekend went, I rate it in terms of dishes and laundry,
e.g. "all the laundry and most of the dishes" :-)

Ken
---
staffan@serum.kodak.com
From: janem@hpfcdc.fc.hp.com (Jane Marcus)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 21:50:19 GMT
Subject: Re: parent/child relationships
Organization: HP Fort Collins, Co.
Newsgroups: misc.kids

>I was at someone's house once and the mother was talking w/ me.
[story deleted of mother yelling at kid unnecessarily, and friend pointing
this out to mother]
>Mother took it well.  She knew she was wrong, and she let it go. BUT she didn't
>apologize to her daughter.  Would you not apologize to a friend or spouse, if
>a similar incident took place?

Actually, I do apologize to my kids sometimes for excessive yelling.  If
I'm wrong, then I'm wrong.  Why shouldn't I admit it to my kids?  

Jane Marcus
jane@apollo.hp.com

Disclaimer:  my kids are not perfect.  Sometimes they do not behave.
Use parenting advice from me at your own risk.