HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: A naive question about the law of return
Date: 14 Sep 92 11:06:20 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <1992Sep11.181952.24956@das.harvard.edu> adam@sparkle.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
=>In article <25734@castle.ed.ac.uk> egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson) writes:
=>>In article <1992Sep10.162657.5262@das.harvard.edu> adam@sparkle.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
=>>=>In article <25703@castle.ed.ac.uk> egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson) writes:
=>>=>However, I'll answer the question I think you were asking, which is
=>>=>"Does a convert, or the decendant of one, have rights under the law of
=>>=>return?" 
=>
=>>=>Yes, they do.  The law of return allows people who may or may not be
=>>=>Jews to "return" to Israel in order to prevent them from being
=>>=>persecuted for their "Jewishness."
=>
=>>So, in this sense, Israel is not a "physical" homeland but a place of
=>>refuge, right?
=>
=>However, that should not be taken to imply that that is its only
=>purpose, or that that is the only reason for Israel to exist.

So, to go a little further, Israel must be seen as a "homeland" for the
Jews (an elective affiliation) rather than as an ancestral homeland for
a people evicted by the Romans, right?

And to continue, supposing that the answer to the above question is in the
affirmative, can you suggest a basis on which we might decide which such
elective affiliations are worthy of this kind of treatment? I imagine that
one possible answer is "because God says so?", or some variant. I'm sure
that you can see that this answer is not very satisfactory. How can we
arrive at a more reasonable solution?



-- 
=======Jeremy Henderson========egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk===============
Q: How many user support people does it take to change a light bulb?
A: We have an exact copy of the light bulb here and it seems to be
   working fine.  Can you tell me what kind of system you have?  
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Subject: Re: Fair Swap
Organization: Australian National University
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 12:28:53 GMT

bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:

>In article 18ocggINNqa0@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu, bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein) writes:
>>
>>In a previous article, bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) says:
>>
>>>But what fraction of the land did it buy?  Even by 1946, most
>>>of the privately-owned land in Palestine was not owned by Jews.
>>
>>Even in 1992, most of the privately held land in Palestine is
>>not owned by Jews.

>Go on, tell us about it.  Probably something about the
>JNF but being really Jewish?
     ^^^
try  NOT, sorry.

>>bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu

>Brendan.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Elghani flames again (JUSTICE/EQUALITY IN...)
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 23:01:13 GMT


In article <1992Sep12.081411.2405344@locus.com> jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000) writes:

>Black Jews migrate to Occupied Palestine (Israel) 
>targeting equality paradise;  unaware that the government there uses them
>to absorb billions of *OUR* AMERICAN MONEY. 

Our money, John?  You're lebanese, remember?

And there are quite a few Etheopian Jews who are doing quite nicely in
Israel.  The religious establishment stinks, as do all religious
establishments.

Adam

Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all.  How true that is.      
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: pssres12@ucs.usl.edu (Vignes Gerard M)
Subject: Post-Sadam Iraq
Organization: Univ. of Southwestern La., Lafayette
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 18:38:44 GMT

	Dare we contemplate such a thing?

-- 

pssres12@ucs.usl.edu	Gerard Vignes, USL PO Box 42709, Lafayette LA 70504 USA
From: horen@rs.com (Jonathan B. Horen)
Subject: Re: Who are the Occupiers?
Reply-To: horen@rs.com
Organization: Renaissance Software, Inc.
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 16:50:15 GMT

In article 708@dscomsf.desy.de, hallam@zeus02.desy.de (Phill Hallam-Baker) writes:
>In article <1992Sep6.165554.26010@discus.technion.ac.il>,
>davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami) writes:
>
>|>The Arabs that sat here before the Jews came will be welcome as Israeli
>|>citizens (and are welcomed) - they have no national rights here.
>
>The claim that any culture has the right to raise itself to the status of law is
>completely false. That has been the root of political oppression since Soccrates
>was executed for opposing the cultural values of the state. There are no nations
>and there are no states, only individuals.

Sorry, but European-style (or any other, for that matter) anarchy has proved 
itself in each of the last three centuries to be (a) unworkable, and 
(b) unacceptable.

Don't even *think* that we Israelis are going to repeat you European's
mistakes and/or failures, however "noble" they might sound.

As for "There are no nations and there are no states, only individuals", well,
facile statements like this one only serve to illustrate the naivety, shallowness,
and immaturity of your world view.

Thanks for coming out of the closet.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: dtyler%jt_home.uucp@amber.athena.lkg.dec.com (David Tyler)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: What's all the talk about Multu?
Summary: strange.....
Keywords: Did this guy change his name?
Date: 4 Sep 92 23:34:47 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Totally Disorganized..

I have heard some talk about Multu changing his name on this group, can
anybody fill me in on what's going on?. I'm kind of in the dark about this
whole thing!. By the way, can anybody fill me in on what is REALLY going on
in Iraq, I feel like I have been getting only a chunk of what is going on,
on CNN. Any help would be apreacated.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dave, =:-)

"Freedom wears a cap which can, without words, call together all those who
long to shake off the slavery" -Gov. Spottswood of Virginia.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.misc
From: adam@sparkle.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Israel and Kuwait in the Spotlight
Followup-To: talk.politics.mideast
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 15:25:14 GMT

In article <EGGERTJ.92Sep9105159@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu> eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu writes:
>In article <1992Sep9.003354.3761@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
[I've set followup to talk.politics.mideast.]

>>   opposed to all the other Arab states where elections are non-existent,
>>   total shams or merely electing figureheads who have no authority
>>   anyways.  The Arab voting-block was not insignificant in the recent
>>   Israeli elections.

>What is your opinion of the recent elections in Lebanon and Yemen?

The recent elections in Lebanon were flawed to a great degree by the
intimidating presence of 40,000 Syrian troops.  The Maronite
Christians chose to boycott the elections in the hope that they would
be postponed for a month, until the Syrian troops left Beruit.

The Parliment elected was 75% pro-Syrian (according to the Boston
Globe; does anyone (hi Brad!) have better numbers?  I just don't trust
the Globe.)

Its very unfortunate that the elections were not postponed, so that
all Lebanese could feel comfortable voting.

Adam

Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all.  How true that is.
From: oueichek@ngulu.imag.fr (Ibaa Oueichek)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Islamic Fundamentalism in Egypt Targets Christians as it Did Jews
Date: 9 Sep 92 13:34:50 GMT
Reply-To: oueichek@ngulu.imag.fr (Ibaa Oueichek)
Organization: IMAG, University of Grenoble, France


  Excuse-me if you recieve mutliple copies of the same article, and also if the 
mail i sent to Hussein badre appears on t.p.m. I'll never change my news poster gain :-).
-- 
Sham(u) ya tha (s)seif(u) lam yaghib(i) | Ibaa Oueichek. oueichek@imag.imag.fr
    Ya jamal(al) majd(i) fi(l) kutub(i) | LABORATOIRE 	BULL-IMAG
Kablak(i) (t)tareekh(u) fi thulmaten    | Grenoble. 
    Baadak(i) staula ala (sh)shuhub(i)  |
					
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.arabic
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Temple Mount /
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 92 01:55:20 GMT

In article <1992Sep12.060713.23775@mcs.kent.edu> rayes@Snake.mcs.kent.edu (Sandra Rayes) writes:

>The Qur'an *specifically* says Al-Aqsa...
>
>"Subhana-ladhi 'isra bi'abdihi laylan min al masjid al haram ila 
>al MASJID AL AQSA...  
>meaning: Praise to Him (God) to took his servant (Muhammad) on a
>journey by night from the Mosque of the Sanctuary (or Sacred Mosque,
>the one in Mecca) to the Mosque of Al Aqsa (Jerusalem).

A recent note in the New York Times mentioned that what is know as the 
Temple Mount in the Jewish tradition and Haram al Sharif to the
Moslems is the location where Abraham prepared to sacrifice his son,
Isaac, according to Judeo-Christian traditions but according to the
Moslem tradition, Abraham was preparing his son Ishmael for sacrifice.

Did the NY Times get this wrong or do Moslems actually re-word the
early part what is known as the Bible?

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com               Pat Paulsen for President
American-Occupied New York                    This year he has a real chance!
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.
From: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Fair Swap
Date: 14 Sep 92 20:54:47 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

bgdv706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (Noam Tractinsky) writes:

>In article <1992Sep11.073925.3382@mcs.kent.edu>, rayes@Snake.mcs.kent.edu (Sandra Rayes) writes:
> 
>> More hogwash.  As I have pointed out innumerable times, but many of you
>> want to close your eyes and plug your ears, Palestinians have a very
>> distinct culture, language, food, etc...from other Arabs.  Cultures 
>> do not become invented over night, but develop over time.  The Arabs
>> of Palestine have identified themselves as Palestinians for at least
>> 2000 years.  


>	I have asked you several times in the past to provide a
>	reference to the above claim. I have yet to receive
>	one. Meanwhile, i'll keep my healthy skepticism alive.


>I have recently talked to an elderly lady and asked her
>> what nationality her parents were....she was stunned and said to me
>> 'Palestinian, what else?'  So I said, 'I mean, what town were they
>> born in?' She said 'The same town I was born in (Tul Karam)...and
>> my grandparents were born there.  Everyone I knew was born there".
>> Hardly sounds like a migrating people.  


>	With all the respect to the elderly lady, are you talking 
>	2,000 years now?


>> In fact, I would point out that Palestinians, on the whole, were 
>> *less* migratory than *other* Arabs.  Other countries, such as
>> Saudi, had and still have very large migrating populations known
>> as badu.  Palestinians, on the other hand, while having some
>> Bedouin clans, were known to be Hadhar (townspeople) who are
>> settled in a single village and Felaheen (farmers) who
>> were tied to their lands.



>	This is absolutely _irrelevant_. It has nothing to do with
>	emigration. 99.99% of the Jews in Israel are either townpeople
>	or farmers. Does that suggest that there was no Jewish 
>	imigration to Palestine/Israel? Nonsense.

> 
Speaking of immigration, Palestinian Arabs were, in fact, VERY migratory.
Fred Gottheil, an Economics professor at the University of Illinois, did
a study using original census data and found that just during the years
1922-1931, 54,790 Arabs immigrated into Palestine.  That means that 11.8%
of ALL Arabs in pre-state Israel were immigrants and Arab immigration 
accounted for 38.7% of all Arab population growth in the land.  That means
that during that period, Arabs accounted for 36.8% of all immigrants to
pre-state Israel.  So much for Palestinians not being migratory!


>> Sandra.


>Noam

Ed.
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:19834 talk.politics.soviet:7823 soc.culture.greek:8729 soc.culture.europe:8284 soc.history:8170
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history
Subject: Re: "sipas" who can't swim.
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 15:52:33 GMT


In article <9209041443.AA06347@kocrsw06.delcoelect.com> c23st@kocrsv01.DElcoelect.COM (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos) writes:

>Hasan seems to have lost it. Although famed as an automotive nation and
>despite being the nation to mass-produce automobiles, construct 
>great highways, bridges, and other roads, and having the youngest 
>driver licence age of any nation,  the average United States driver
>(suburban / rural / etc) would not have a PRAYER passing, say, the
>basic British or even the Greek driver licence test. 

But, it was not the United States that lost almost every single war 
against Turkiye. After the Ottoman Empire lost World War I, the British 
landed in 1919 a 200,000 Greek army in Izmir to exterminate the people 
of Turkiye. The tired and defeated Turks rose up, formed a National 
Force under the leadership of Mustafa Kemal, and on August 30, 1922 
they annihilated the bulk of the Greek Army (and gave swimming lessons
for free). That's why "Sipas" swim like they are crazed.

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Subject: QSL for ARF
Reply-To: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Organization: North Carolina State University
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 14:11:31 GMT

Jack, I heard your voice for the first time last Saturday night (Sept.
12, 1992) on 3950 KHz LSB at 0250 UTC. You read your editorial about
Clinton that you posted here a few days back. You also announced that
ARF was going off the air on Sunday nights. Your signal strength was not
very great here in Raleigh but your propagation was good. Do you send
E-mail QSL cards? :-)

Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.misc,misc.headlines,soc.rights.human
From: rothberg@bimacs.BITNET (Danny Rothenberg)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Fair Swap
Date: 14 Sep 92 12:47:28 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

In article <1992Sep14.065554.16137@mcs.kent.edu> rayes@Snake.mcs.kent.edu (Sandra Rayes) writes:

>I should have said others (Egyptians, Greeks) referred to the people
>of Palestine as Palestinians (Filisteeni).  The best source where
>an undisputed ARAB refers to them as Palestinians is in an order
>by 'Umar ibn al-Khattab to Abu 'Ubaydah to remove the "Palestine Moslem
>Army" from Amwas, due to a plague that had hit the region...this being
>in 638, one year after Jerusalem fell to the Muslims.
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


Here we have your true answer: basically you are a sore loser.  After
all, let us not forget you have never claimed that the Christians have
any claim.  Just the Moslems.

You cannot have it both ways.  Either you believe in the 'law of
conquest', or you do not.  If you do believe in it, then there is no
use in crying crocodile tears when you lose.  If you do not beleive in
it, tell me please how the Arabs happenned to be there, especially wrt
638.


>For the first statement, check out any basic history book, such as
>Columbia History of the World; also, Civilizations of the Holy Land
>by Paul Johnson.  For the Arabic source, look up Hitti's History of
>the Arabs, or Arab History Makers, I am sure the story of 'Umar is
>related in these.  Or, if you read Arabic, I can refer you to some
>other history sources.
>
>
>Sandra.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Danny Rothenberg            |    ^     Ellul is here, so:  (I also forgive
Bitnet:                     | \-/-\-/   "Repent now!        everybody)
rothberg@bimacs             |  X   X     Avoid the Yom Kippur rush!"
Internet:                   | /-\-/-\      -Nero (aka Harry Blacker)
rothberg@imacs.cs.biu.ac.il |    V    Ketivah VeChatimah Tovah-Shanah Tovah
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:19841 talk.politics.soviet:7830 soc.culture.greek:8736 soc.culture.europe:8291 soc.history:8177
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history
Subject: "Leschiner the revisionist" and sheer racism: "Are Muslims jerks?"
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 15:55:35 GMT


In article <9209042150.AA12376@feds66.Prime.COM> dleschin@FEDS66.PRIME.COM (Dmitri Leschiner) writes:

>He would say Turks must be jerks, because they are Moslems. Would he be 
>right? Probably:-).

Most likely, Muslims would assess you, and if they thought you were just
a crazy looney or "moronian", you would probably be ignored, or hauled
off to jail for disturbing the "mehmetcik". In other words, if you were
to line up on one side of the earth every human being who ever lived
or ever will, and you took a good look at the whole motley crowd, you
wouldn't find anybody quite like you "les." 

Now wait, there's more.

As early as 1934, K. S. Papazian asserted in 'Patriotism Perverted' that 
the Armenian Revolutionary Federation (ARF) 

        'leans toward Fascism and Hitlerism.'[1]

At that time, he could not have foreseen that the Armenians would
actively assume a pro-German stance and even collaborate in World
War II. His book was dealing with the Armenian genocide of Turkish
population of eastern Anatolia. However, extreme rightwing ideological
tendencies could be observed within the Dashnagtzoutune long before
the outbreak of the Second World War.

In 1936, for example, O. Zarmooni of the 'Tzeghagrons' was quoted
in the 'Hairenik Weekly:' 

"The race is force: it is treasure. If we follow history we shall 
 see that races, due to their innate force, have created the nations
 and these have been secure only insofar as they have reverted to
 the race after becoming a nation. Today Germany and Italy are
 strong because as nations they live and breath in terms of race.
 On the other hand, Russia is comparatively weak because she is
 bereft of social sanctities."[2]

[1] K. S. Papazian, 'Patriotism Perverted,' (Boston, Baikar Press
   1934), Preface.
[2] 'Hairenik Weekly,' Friday, April 10, 1936, 'The Race is our
   Refuge' by O. Zarmooni.


Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

Newsgroups: talk.poltics.misc,talk.politics.mideast,misc.headlines
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Fair Swap
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 22:38:37 GMT

In article <1301@tecsun1.etl.army.mil> riggs@descartes.tec.army.mil (Bill Riggs) writes:

>more than the U.S. national interest. Only with the advent of the Bush
>administration, which has basically allowed the Foreign Service to
>craft American foreign policy in the Middle East without untoward
>political influence from Capitol Hill, has it been possible to move U.S.
>policy in the direction of both peace and increased direct military
>commitments to Israel.

Are you speaking of the same George Bush who criticized Israel for
taking out Iraq's Osirak nuclear reactor? 

Is this the same Bush that, as President, worked diligently to assure
Saddam of getting US loan guarantees which were financing a massive
military buildup?  (Guess which taxpayers are paying off those loan
guarantees now?)

Is this the same George Bush who let his very own astrologer, James
Baker, pronounce Israeli "settlements" to be the "greatest obstacle to
peace in the Middle East"?  What an embarassing lunacy!

So you say that the same guy then "allowed" the Foreign Service to
consider American interests first?  Bush has been a Foreign affairs
disaster, for foreign and American interests alike.  

>	This whole matter has been a massive spinach eating contest.

Good thing it wasn't broccolli or Bush would have done even worse. :-)

>Nobody really likes the taste, but everyone knows it is good for
>them. But, if Clinton is elected President, we can be sure that the 
>same forces that manipulated U.S. policy in Israel's favor in the
>Carter and Reagan administrations will be back knocking on the
>door of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue come January 20th.

Ummm, if Bush is re-elected (and I rather doubt it, today) then the
White House will continue to do the bidding of Big Oil, without the
slightest concern for human rights and with contempt for anyone silly
enough not to own the right shares in the stock market or the right
oil wells.  Just ask the Kurds and the Yugoslavs.

There will always be outside forces with their own interests, Israelis
wanting guarantees, Saudis wanting jets, Japanese wanting one-way
tariff structures, etc.  While Clinton is somewhat untested in such
struggles, Bush's demonstrated track record of selling out at the
expense of decency, honesty and humanity make him the worst candidate
for president in a very long time. 

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com               Pat Paulsen for President
American-Occupied New York                    This year he has a real chance!
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed)
Subject: Re: Israel and Kuwait in the Spotlight
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 02:18:43 GMT

In article <1992Sep13.223713.15682@das.harvard.edu> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
>Its supported by such things as Bush's veto of the
>Familty leave act, which forces women to quit their jobs to take care
>of kids.

What a load.  Its supported by such things as Bush's proposal to alleviate the 
cost to smaller businesses by providing tax breaks if they provide family leave.
Some might say that Bush's veto also forces people to be shrewder about
the benefits they get from their jobs.  But, hey, why force people to act like
adults and make choices in life.


>Adam
>
>
>Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu
>
>What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
>at all.  How true that is.      


-- 
Anwar Mohammed                FREE       Graduate Student
anwar+@cs.cmu.edu              THE       School of Computer Science
Voice: +1 412 268 3043     KUWAITI       Carnegie-Mellon University
Fax:   +1 412 681 5739        POWS       Pittsburgh, PA  15213-3890
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:19966 alt.conspiracy:10589