HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ag129@cus.cam.ac.uk (Alasdair Grant)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Kilt availability.
Date: 1 Oct 92 12:27:21 GMT
Organization: U of Cambridge, England

In article <BvEx1x.J15@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> worden@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (elizabeth worden) writes:
>I just sent Craig an email suggesting he look around him at women
>winning in solo piping and drumming and in top notch bands, then
>rethink his rather uninformed words.  I then read one woman's peat
>fire flame of Craig and thought I would make my comments on his
>lack of touch with present day reality more public than email!

I'm sure there are women in German oompah bands who wear lederhosen,
but that doesn't stop it being a traditionally male costume. Craig is
absolutely right. Some American Celtic hobbyists and dilletantes ought
to remember that Scotland is a nation with a history, not a social club!
I doubt if Flora MacDonald ever wore a kilt.
From: cockburn@edieng.enet.dec.com (Craig Cockburn)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Kilt availability.
Date: 1 Oct 92 19:10:33 GMT
Article-I.D.: rdg.1992Oct1.192006.15983
Organization: Digital Equipment Co. Ltd., Reading, England


In article <BvG9HK.47s@dcs.ed.ac.uk>, morna@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Morna J Findlay) writes...
>In article <1992Oct1.122721.17504@infodev.cam.ac.uk> ag129@cus.cam.ac.uk (Alasdair Grant) writes:
>>
>>I'm sure there are women in German oompah bands who wear lederhosen,
>>but that doesn't stop it being a traditionally male costume. 
> 
>It doesn't stop it being Lederhosen either. :-)
> 
> 
>>Craig is
>>absolutely right. 
> 
>No he's not :-)
> 
Yes I am :-)

> 
>>I doubt if Flora MacDonald ever wore a kilt.
> 
>But if she had, laddie, it would still have been a kilt :-)
> 
I agree here. A kilt is a kilt, irrespective of who is wearing it.
However, women do not normally wear kilts, they wear kilted skirts

This thread started out because a woman was wanting to buy a kilt, and 
as somone who has been through the expensive experience of buying full
highland dress, I advised her to buy a kilted skirt instead. The purpose
being that kilted skirts are what women generally wear anyway, and they
are also considerably cheaper. Some people don't appreciate a favour when
they see one!

I bought my kilt in Edinburgh, and when my wife was enquiring at the
same time, she was advised to buy a kilted skirt. I sing in a choir with
over 20 women in it, and none of them wear kilts either.

>is weel kent to have worn a frock :-) :-), which is no doubt
>doubtless defined Craig's dictionary as a traditional female
>garment, but Charlie's  wearing it didn't turn it into a pair of dungarees.
>Indeed this would rather have defeated the purpose :-)

The dictionary was the English based OED, but I'm happy to say that the 
Scots concur.

From the concise Scots dictionary, published by Aberdeen University Press:

Kilt (n) A part of the modern male Highland Dress... 

Maybe they don't have female pipe bands in Scotland???!

No doubt I'll find out in two weeks time in Oban, when I'm in the biggest
gathering of kilt wearing highlanders in the world. And I don't mean 
people whose ancestors were highlanders, I mean people who actually live
there.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Craig Cockburn, Digital Equipment Co. Ltd, Reading, England.     Suas
  Internet: cockburn@edieng.enet.dec.com                           leis
  UUCP:..!decwrl!edieng.enet.dec.com!cockburn                      a'
                                                                   Gha\idhlig!
  Views here are my own, and are not necessarily those of Digital
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: ulick@angelico.helios.nd.edu (Ulick Stafford)
Subject: Re: Celtic Holidays
Keywords: Celtic, holidays
Organization: OUC, University of Notre Dame
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 17:14:58 GMT

>In article <gT1sRB4w165w@bluemoon.rn.com> papageno@bluemoon.rn.com (Andrew Armstrong) writes:
>>
>>  I am relatively new to this newsgroup.  I have only been reading it for 
>>a few months now.  But in this time, I have seen little discussion about 
>>Celtic holidays.  I would appreciate it if someone could make a list of 
>>magor holidays, their signifigance, and how they are observed.  I am very 
>>interested in learning more about the Celtic culture.  The holidays can be 
>>pagan, Christian, national, regional, etc.

Holidays in Ireland

New Year's day - pretty international.  Celebrated in Wexford with a 
fishing competition, which is an excuse for bar extensions till 1am
on New Year's Eve.  I'm sure some Scots will post about their
excessive Hagmany celebrations.

February 1st is not a public holiday, but is celebrated as St Bridgit's
Day.  St. Bridgit, a legendary nun, represents severla Celtic godesses.
The feast, one of the old Celtic quarter days, was called Imbolc.

St. Patrick's day, March 17th, a public holiday, is mostly religious,
although an American style parade has been developed in Dublin for
tourist purposes.  Shamrock (for me wood sorrel) is worn by most people
to mass.  There isn't any major drinking like in the US, and St. Patrick's
day used to have the retrictive Sunday opening times.

Easter Monday - the day after Easter, a public holiday.  It was the day
the Easter rising started in 1916, and used to be a day of memorial for
those who died for Ireland's freedom.  In these politically correct days
when Irish nationalism is not acceptable, it is not as widely celebrated
as in the past, and the pro British Fine Gael party, tried to adopt 
Poppy day when last in power, although Fianna Fail are little better.
The 75th anniversary went by without a whimper.

Bealtaine - or Mayday, one of the Celtic quarter days IS NOT celebrated
in Ireland.

The June Bankholiday.  First holiday weekend of the summer - the first
Monday of June.  It is a 'fixed' Whitsun.

The August Bankholiday.  First Monday in August - the biggest holiday
weekend of the year.  Correspond to the celtic quarter day of Lunasa. 

The October Bankholiday.  Last Monday of October.  Corresponds to 
Celtic Quarterday of Samhain - popularily celebrated as Halloween,
an Irish custom adopted in the US.

Christmas - the biggest holiday of the year.  Christmas, St Stephen's
day, and the day after again are all public holidays.  Most emigrants,
such as I, go home every Christmas.  


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
+ 'There was a  master come unto the earth, + Ulick Stafford, PP-ASEL       +
+    born in the holy land of Indiana,      + Dept of Chemical Engineering, +
+ in the mystical hills east of Fort Wayne'.+ Notre Dame, IN 46556          +
+      B'fhearr liom bheith ag eitilt.      +    ulick@bach.helios.nd.edu   +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
From: gsut@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Giles Sutherland)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Relevance
Date: 30 Sep 92 16:17:13 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Edinburgh

In article <1992Sep29.142738.4957@news.nd.edu>, ulick@rodin.helios.nd.edu (Ulick Stafford) writes:
> Is it just me or is anyone else getting pissed off  with the number of people
> with political or religious causes unrelated to Ireland, Scotland, Celtism,
> or anything else relevant to this group who post interminably long articles 
> to this newsgroup typically as part of a line that goes to nearly all s.c.
> groups (not that that is the case with this one)?  Short comments may be
> acceptable, but when I see 3% at the bottom of the screen, I get really
> pissed off.
> 
> 
I would concur with your view.  So, what's to be done about it?

Giles Sutherland.
From: mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: My Ugly American post for the year....
Date: 1 Oct 92 13:22:09 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London, UK.

From: ljb@parkcity.dr.att.com (BLO54620-BonhamLJ(DR2194)240)
>  To our friends across the pond who don't like the U.S. for whatever reason,
> need we dredge up the sordid past of the British EMPIRE?

No, because we have already dredged it up ourselves and used it
as the prime example of why we don't like bombastic nationalism.

> You self-righteous snobs got so out of hand that 200 years ago
>your own countrymen were forced to throw you out of
>the Americas.

I am not quite sure about the continuity of the "you" here. As
for "snob", as someone who was brought up on welfare payments
and has suffered plenty of discrimination on account of my
working-class background, I resent that accusation.

>In closing, I wonder why we are so busy dicussing America per se on a celtic
>network?  I began tuning in because I wanted to further explore my Celtic
>heritage and instead I find that some blokes from the UK still haven't gotten
>over the Revolution.  Please don't come back to this net until you have
>something cogent to contribute to the exploration of CELTIC culture.

OK then - do you know what is destroying your Celtic heritage?
The answer is the Americanisation of European culture. Go to
the remotest Irish, Scottish or Welsh village, and what will
you find? American films on TV, kids who know more about
American cartoon characters than their own myths and legends,
kids who demand American junk food and reject their own
traditional recipes, kids who wear American baseball caps and
tee-shirts with the names of American sports teams, people who
have forgotten their own language because America has made
English the dominant language of the world, people who live and
dream America, for whom America is more real than their own
heritage. And all you can do is say that those of us who would
like to protect a little bit of this heritage, who want to keep
it alive, who don't want to see it swamped by world
Americanisation are "snobs" who "haven't gotten over the
revolution".

Matthew Huntbach
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: niall@nmsu.edu (Niall Graham)
Subject: Re: My Ugly American post for the year....
Organization: Computing Research Lab
	<BvHLF0.IML@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> <23244@optima.cs.arizona.edu>
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1992 23:38:05 GMT

For Gary Newell...
Once upon a time, in the U.S., it was possible to tell whether a big-band
or blues artist was from St. Louis, Chigago, New Orleans (or probably
a dozen other cities) by their *style* of play.   
This is of course a thing of the past because music is particularly
tender prey for the monster created by mass communication.
Now do we really want to see the rest of the world being similarly
homogenized? 

Gary Newell writes:
>In three hundred years, should we be
>attempting to keep cultures from developing in an effort to "preserve"
>them? 

Economic development, and preservation of culture are not
irreconcilable objectives.  And there is no reason for
you to suppose that they must be.



--

Niall Graham     "We live in an age that reads too much to be wise,
Los Alamos            and that thinks too much to be beautiful"
                                                        Oscar Wilde
From: newt@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Michael Steven Newton)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Scottish Newsgroup
Date: 30 Sep 92 12:19:31 GMT
Organization: Glasgow University Computing Science Dept.

riordanm@cs.tcd.ie (Mark Riordan) writes:

>Initially I thought I seperate Newsgroup for Scotland would be
>fine. I would just read both. Then I thought well after a week of 
>uninteresting articles on a topic important to Scotland but of
>no interest to me I would probably unsubscribe.

>I think the pictish, scottish, celtic, irish, rangers, celtic, soccor,
>linguistics etc diversity is great I have learned a lot. I don't mind
>the odd article of no interest when I find one which I would not
>normally have read but I find of great interest.

>Personally I am for maintenance of the net-union. I am a
>net-unionist I suppose. :-)

  I agree.  If we form too many splinter groups, we'll lose a lot of
  focus and diversity.  As long as we can keep this group centred around
  things Celtic, whether they pertain to modern day Scotland, ancient
  Gaul and everything in between, and can keep away from topics better
  suited to other boards, I don't particularly see a need for yet another
  net news group.

  Then again, Celts are famous for tribal warfare and inability to keep
  cohesive, so why break the trend?

  -- MN
From: alisonjw@spider.co.uk (Alison J Wyld)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Nationalism - or Why do people have flags in their gardens?
Keywords: Orange marches Ireland
Date: 30 Sep 92 09:12:39 GMT
Organization: Spider Systems Limited, Edinburgh, UK.

In article <1992Sep30.070155.12571@netcom.com> eamon@netcom.com (Charles E Taggart) writes:
>
>The stated purpose of the Orange marches has been for expression of pride
>in Protestantism and "Britishness", but it seems that their main purpose
>in the North is to intimidate the nationalist population.  This would be
>pointless in the Republic, so I would guess that the marches' purpose
>would be the former.

As a writer in the Scotsman pointed out back in July, if it weren't
for the context of bigotry, the Glasgow Orange marches would be being
hailed as a fine example of street culture, and probably be given a
grant from the EC. (oops, am I about to tie two threads together).

For the record, the writer stated she was a Catholic.

Alison
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: butler@norton.sni.de (Butler)
Subject: THE IRISH EMIGRANT - Subscribing to ????
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 12:55:49 GMT
Organization: Siemens Nixdorf Info.Sys. AG, Paderborn, Germany


I have recently heard about an Irish news paper called "The Irish Emigrant".
I would love to subscribe to this but I don't know how.   Is there any one
out there in the happy computer world who can help me get a subscription
to this service.  I myself am an Irish emigrant who has been out of the
country for a while and would love to hear some news from home.

Thanks in advance

Robea/rd de Butle/ar

(Bob Butler)
--
 Bob Butler                  |E-MAIL ADDRESS
 Siemens Nixdorf Infosystems |butler.pad@sni-usa.com - U.S.A.
 Security and Sysgen         |butler.pad@sni.de - rest of world
 STO NC 331                  |MY VIEWS ARE MY OWN AND NOT MY COMPANYS
From: cc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Chris Cooke)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Scottish Newsgroup
Date: 5 Oct 92 18:32:55 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Edinburgh, Scotland

In article <1992Oct5.163852.6262@news.clarkson.edu> walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,) writes:

   Doesn't Barr's Irn Bru come in cans now. Do they still use bottles at
   all?

Both - some shops sell plastic bottles of it; some places sell cans; the
traditional (e.g. chip shops) and the vaguely eco-friendly establishments
sell it in returnable glass bottles with a 10p deposit.  Many shops seem to
give you the choice of returnable glass bottles and non-returnable plastic
ones.
--
	-- Chris. 	cc@dcs.ed.ac.uk   (on Janet, cc@uk.ac.ed.dcs)

		
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: h.jonkers@et.tudelft.nl (Henk Jonkers)
Subject: Re: Scottish Newsgroup
Organization: Delft University of Technology, Dept. of Electrical Engineering
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 12:50:57 GMT

cc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Chris Cooke) writes:

>In article <1992Oct4.195647.4319@news.clarkson.edu> walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,) writes:

>   From article <1992Oct4.082321.3797@rdg.dec.com>, by cockburn@edieng.enet.dec.com (Craig Cockburn):
>   > 
>   > Irn Bru
>   >

>   This should obviously carry a Government Health Warning, since increased
>   levels of iron in the blood has been linked with heart attacks. There we
>   now have a discussion going in this group about Irn Bru.

>They have to call it "Irn Bru" because it doesn't have iron in it any more.
>It used to be called "Iron Brew".

>For those that don't know, it's a type of fizzy soft drink, or soda.  Very
>sweet and sugary.  Which means that it's still bad for you...
>--
>	-- Chris. 	cc@dcs.ed.ac.uk   (on Janet, cc@uk.ac.ed.dcs)

According to the label Irn Bru still contains some iron composite
(I don't remember the exact name, ferric ... citrate or something).
I brought a bottle of Irn Bru concentrate home from Scotland (it's
quite close to the real thing, when mixed with carbonated water, and
much more efficient to take on a plane than a bottle of real Irn
Bru). I think Irn Bru is just a trade-mark of Barr's, and the name
Iron Brew is used by possible other manifacturers (although I don't
know of any).

Henk  ( H.Jonkers@et.tudelft.nl )
From: ag129@cus.cam.ac.uk (Alasdair Grant)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: My Ugly American post for the year....
Date: 1 Oct 92 12:34:56 GMT
Organization: U of Cambridge, England

In article <21008@drutx.ATT.COM> ljb@parkcity.dr.att.com (BLO54620-BonhamLJ(DR2194)240) writes:

(62 lines about American Revolution, postwar reconstruction etc. deleted)

> Please don't come back to this net until you have
>cogent to contribute to the exploration of CELTIC culture.
From: cc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Chris Cooke)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Nationalism - or Why do people have flags in their gardens?
Date: 5 Oct 92 18:29:39 GMT
	<2OCT92.20305349@skyfox.usask.ca> <1992Oct2.222932.15373@news.nd.edu>
	<1992Oct4.201952.26162@rdg.dec.com>
	<1992Oct05.133413.9134@bas-a.bcc.ac.uk>
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Edinburgh, Scotland

In article <1992Oct05.133413.9134@bas-a.bcc.ac.uk> skaamjm@ucl.ac.uk (Matthew Moore) writes:

   spain@galvia.enet.dec.com writes:
   >98.4% of our electorate chose not to vote for Sinn Fein in the last
   >general election.  That does not make us English or anti Irish.

   Hardly an equal choice was it? 

   Are you not aware that Sinn Fein are, and have been censored from TV
   and radio in the Irish Republic for many years, including election
   times?

And if the Irish electorate don't like that, they're free to vote to have
the ban removed...
--
	-- Chris. 	cc@dcs.ed.ac.uk   (on Janet, cc@uk.ac.ed.dcs)
From: gln@cs.arizona.edu (Gary L. Newell)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Sinead O'Connor's cute little performance
Date: 6 Oct 92 17:30:23 GMT
Organization: U of Arizona CS Dept, Tucson


 I'm curious how Sinead's little act on the most recent Saturday Night
Live show is being taken in Ireland and the UK. I happened to be watching
the show with my wife and daughter and must say I was surprised when she
decided to end the Marley song that way. I know little about her - where
was she born? Is she Catholic? Is this simply an attack on the influence
that the Catholic church has had on Ireland or is this simply a case
of catholic-bashing?


					gln
From: shazam@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Mr. Walker's comments about welfare in Ms. and Ala.
Date: 6 Oct 92 00:41:56 GMT
Organization: Carnegie Mellon Computer Club

Ummm.....Excuse me, Mr. Walker, but before you start staing facts
about the people in other states, perhaps you should live there first?

You mentioned Alabama and Mississippi and living off welfare and
food banks.  Perhaps you should visit here and see hwo many familys
are living off welfare and WHY they are living off welfare?

I worked as an Eligibility Worker for the Food Stamp Department here
in Mississippi.  I was employed for 5 years by the Welfare Department.
So if you have any doubts as to waht I am saying, feel free
to write me persoinally, but please do not start another flame war
on this list.  

I sent this to the list and not to him personally, because I wanted
to make sure that people did not get the wrong impression 
because someone who may have never lived in a state can
supposedly state facts about said state.  *smile*

Suzanne
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,)
Subject: Re: European superiority
Organization: Clarkson University
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 16:43:43 GMT

From article <23323@optima.cs.arizona.edu>, by gln@cs.arizona.edu (Gary L. Newell):
> In article <1992Oct4.011002.12125@news.clarkson.edu>, walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,) writes:
>> As to comments about this not being appropriate s.c.c material, I would
>> suggest that s.c.c be view as a forum where people from (or have a link
>> with) Ireland, Scotland, Walse, Breton, etc. can discuss topics that
>> affect their lives, and the role that the US has on the culture of these
>> lands is certainly worth discussing.
> 
>  I'm not sure what you are trying to say here - if I read this correctly you
> seem to be implying that US-bashing is OK, but defending those attacks is
> not appropriate - is that right? So, someone from the UK can accuse the US
> of being responsible for the state of Celtic culture today but an American
> cannot respond to those charges? 
> 
> 			gln
> 
> 
No. No. No. No. Lets try again. I am only saying that topics that
"appear" not to be of "celtic" interest are of celtic interest if
someone from the countries mentioned above, or others who are interested
in "celtic culture" feels that the need to discuss them. My point was
about discussion itself rather than on any particular topic or stand.


														GW
From: gln@cs.arizona.edu (Gary L. Newell)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: My Ugly American post for the year....
Date: 30 Sep 92 18:26:42 GMT
Organization: U of Arizona CS Dept, Tucson

In article <BvE5DM.8EK@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk>, newt@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Michael Steven Newton) writes:
>   Yes, pride goeth before a fall.  Thanks, Gary, for displaying the
>   unspoken truth which so many Americans hide deep in their tiny hearts
>   but are too often afraid to expose in the cold light of day.  The rest
>   of us are terribly ashamed of our culture, language and country, and
>   wish we could adopt the greatness of your shining exemplary country,

Well work at it and someday you too may be the greatest country on
the planet - but for now be happy as part of the second world... hey
it could be worse you could be in France...

>   especially as advertised on your wonderful cultural awareness campaign
>   you've been promoting through television.

 Oh yes - tell me, why is it that brits have a hissy fit over our 
television programming? I've always been amazed at how much attention
this gets. You don't have to watch it so why insist on attacking it? 

>   How shall we start?  Perhaps we could first find a number of poor
>   third world nations with untapped natural resources, overthrow their
>   governments (by replacing less just rule by "democracy"), and put in
>   some rulers who would owe us something.  Much like the CIA has done
>   to ensure the dominance of the US.

 Not a bad start - but of course your industry is second rate which is likely 
to make things tough on you. You might start by emulating our higher
education system which is the best the world has ever seen. 

>   Any more suggestions, oh enlightened one?

 Yes - get a haircut....


			gln

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic