HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: booth@mdd.comm.mot.com (Greg Booth)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Seagal's Firearms handling (was: Re: Got One! (Spring. Arm. 1911-A1))
Date: 22 Jan 93 23:40:34 GMT
Organization: Motorola - Mobile Data Division; Richmond, BC

In <1993Jan22.074239.17314@netcom.com> rbean@netcom.com (William Chen) writes:


#The pistol he has IS an Omega. Notice the twin  side extractors. How id you
#like the G3K ? =) 
#I've heard rumors that he use to compete in IPSC. is that true? 

My Black Badge Instructor mentioned he had seen Steven Seagal compete in IPSC 
matches, and that Mr. Seagal knew his stuff.

Apparently Mr. Seagal has had some custom .45s made for himself as well.


-- 
Greg Booth BSc                    |     /_____________________________
BCAA-PCDHF-BCWF-NFA-NRA-IPSC-BCFSS|@====|_____________________________>
Motorola Mobile Data Division     |     \
booth@mdd.comm.mot.com (I don't speak for Motorola)
From: daane@sysmanzl.zld.rws.nl (Bert Daane)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Ballistic programs
Date: 28 Jan 93 16:11:02 GMT


Looking for ballistical programs.
Internal and external.
Small arms.
For MS-DOS.
From: vtroll%triton.unm.edu@lynx.unm.edu (Vincent Trollinger)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: INFO. NEEDED/MI GARAND
Date: 27 Jan 93 03:36:23 GMT
Article-I.D.: lynx.1k3oujINNf8s
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque


  I would appreciate any help on a SCOPE MOUNT for an MI Garand.
 I have seen some made by S & K  that are direct bolt ons via the rear sight 
mounting point. It is aluminum and places the scope just off center.
 Does anyone have any info on this particular scope mount or others they have
seen ?  Dealer name, price, etc. ???
thanks very much,
VINCE
  e-mail to :  vtroll@triton.unm.edu
From: janeczko@csd630a.erim.org (Mike Janeczko)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: home protection concerns
Date: 22 Jan 93 03:59:14 GMT
Organization: Environmental Research Institute of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan

I recently bought a S&W model 686 (i.e. Stainless steel 6" .357) for both 
protection and hunting.  I was talking with my father about loads to keep 
around the house for protection.  He said definetly use factory loads.  His 
reason was that if by chance you end up killing a perp. with a handloaded
cartridge, the prosecuting lawyer might portray you using excessive force.
His reasoning might be that necessary force could have been carried out 
with factory load (i.e. non-maximum loads).  This also got me thinking about 
the caliber of the gun also being considered as excessive force?  Has there 
been any cases involving this?

Another point my father made that I guess makes sense is that when loading a 
clip  (doesn't apply in my case, at least not yet :-)  you should 
"fingerprint-proof" your bullets.  This can be done by loading the clip with a 
glove on or use a towel when loading.  This gives one less piece of evidence 
tieing you to the gun.  It may not help, but why give the prosecutor any kind 
of edge.

Does anyone else have any other tips?  Or comments on what I stated?


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Janeczko               |   Environmental Research Institute of Michigan
Research Scientist             |   P.O. Box 134001
internets:                     |   Ann Arbor, MI 48113-4001
 janeczko@erim.org             |   Phone: (313) 994-1200 x2676
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: hancock@iex.iex.com (David Hancock)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Suggestions for small hands
Date: 22 Jan 93 04:02:11 GMT
Organization: IEX Corporation, Dallas

In article <c61802wv32X.01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> mws20@ccc.amdahl.com (Mark Sechrest) writes:
#
#I am in the market for a 9mm handgun, and I would like to hear some
#suggestions about what guns fit well in smaller hands. A friend has a
[snipped for brevity]

I suspect this will be echoed several times (if *this* isn't already an
echo ;-).  Consider a Browning High Power.  I have fairly small mitts,
and it fits my hand better than any other high-cap 9mms.  Were I in the
market, the HP would be in the race.  Having shot a SIG P226 at the range
a couple months ago, I would have to consider it, too, in *spite* of a
larger grip.  It might be worth learning to compensate for it. 

Note that I STILL like my S&W 3906:  Smith doesn't make 'em anymore, however,
and in spite of using a single stack mag (9 rds.) it borders on being too
big as well.
-- 
David Hancock -*- IEX Corporation	       | Email: [uunet!]iex!hancock
		  1400 Preston Road, Suite 350 | Voice: (214) 612-2600
		  Plano, Texas 75093
From: jaf@a2.cim.cdc.com (James Foster x2912)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Beretta vs Taurus ?
Date: 27 Jan 93 03:37:10 GMT

In article <1993Jan25.201605.3879@michael.apple.com>, you write:
|> If we can take a brief detour from the Sig vs Glock vs Beretta 
|> debate for a moment ...
|> 
|> What about Beretta vs Taurus?  They look to be the same design.
|> The Taurus looks to be well made (to the extent that can be seen
|> from the outside of the gun...).
|> 
|> So how similar are they?  Can you swap parts from a 92 to whatever
|> the Taurus equivalent is (like on real 1911-A1 clones) or are there
|> subtile manufacturing differences that make them quite different?
|> 
|> The local gun store asserts that Brazil nationalized a Beretta 
|> plant and is basically building Berrettas on Beretta tooling
|> under a different name.  Is this true?  (And did they start 
|> cheapening the metals or quality of labor used ... or kept the same?)
|> 
|> -- 
|> 
|> E. Michael Smith  ems@apple.COM
|> 
|> 'Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it.  Boldness has
|>  genius, power and magic in it.'  -  Goethe
|> 
|> I am not responsible nor is anyone else.  Everything is disclaimed.


The story is correct as far as I know.  I purchased a few Beretta magazines
for my Taurus based on the supposed similarity of the design.  I was told that
the magazine catch had been changed slightly and that I would have to file
out the slots on the magazines to get them to work.  This was true, but in
addition the top of the Taurus magazines are more rounded.  This allows the
top of them to clear the magazine catch and then push it out as the magazine
is inserted.  The squarer top of the Beretta magazines hit the catch 
solidly and required that the mag. release be pushed in to allow the magazine
to be inserted fully.  I tried rounding the edge of one magazine and it 
works, but was not worth the work.

The bottom line is that if they have already changed the magazine catch then
other parts probably have had minor changes made.  I would guess that there is
little if any interchangability and would not count on it.

My feeling is that the Taurus is a good lower cost alternative if you like the 
Beretta design.  I bought my PT-99 used and have only put about 1000 rounds through
it, but have had no problems with it.

Jim Foster
From: cescript@physerver (Charles Scripter)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: shooting under water?
Date: 26 Jan 93 13:05:03 GMT
Organization: Michigan Technological University

David Basiji (basiji@stein.u.washington.edu) wrote:
# gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) writes:
# #However, the column of water in the barrel is MUCH less compressible than
# #the normal corresponding column of air.  Thus the bullet will meet more
# #resistance moving down the barrel and so the internal volume will be less
# #at any given point during the powder combustion.  This should indeed lead
# #to higher chamber pressure.  How much higher, I don't know.

# Sorry, I thought we were still in air.  The external pressure will be 
# dependent on the depth at which the gun is held.  You're right, internal
# pressures will be much higher.
# You won't catch me firing any guns under water.

Actually, I don't think the pressure due to the depth will matter for
the purpose of this exercise... 

Probably the most intuitive way to think about this problem is to add
the mass of the column of water to the mass of the bullet (higher mass
-> higher pressures).  If we have a .40 caliber pistol, with a 6"
barrel the mass of the water in the barrel would be about 12 grams
(water has a density of 1 gm/cc); Let's see, that would be
12*(2.2*7000/1000)= 185 grains (did I do that right?).  So, if you
were shooting 180 grain slugs, it would be like moving up to 365 grain
slugs; Not exactly a wise choice of loads...  Of course this is
completely ignoring things like viscosity (i.e. we assume
"frictionless" water)...  I would expect viscous forces to be more
dominant in the smaller diameter bores, so small bore rifles would be
*more* likely to blow up.  [BTW, high power small bore rifles *are*
more inclined to blow up when there is even a _little_ water in the
barrel].  If someone wanted to be *real* ambitious they could figure
out the force required to accelerate a column of water (with
viscosity) through a pipe.

--
Charles Scripter   *   cescript@phy.mtu.edu
Dept of Physics, Michigan Tech University, Houghton, MI 49931
-------------------------------------------------------------
"...when all government... in little as in great things, shall be
drawn to Washington as the centre of all power, it will render
powerless the checks provided of one government on another and will
become as venal and oppressive as the government from which we
separated."   Thomas Jefferson, 1821
From: DHORTON@ENGLISH.AS.UA.EDU (David A. Horton)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Glock 10mm and CHP
Date: 26 Jan 93 16:24:47 GMT
Organization: University of Alabama English Dept.

Jim Del-Vecchio and Frank Crary:

I heard a similar story about the Glock trials with the CHP --
apparently Glock sent a shipment of something like 500 pistols to the
CHP for evaluation. Upon arrival the armorers disassembled the
pistols to see if the met certain criteria and tossed them aside.
Emphasis on "tossed them aside" into a pile of Glock parts. Didn't
bother to clean them.
When the time for evaluation rolled around they simply assembled the
Glocks out of the pile of parts at random. This was also done with
the S&Ws. Apparently, the Glocks were much more "sensitive" to this
mis-matching of parts than the S&Ws were. The Glocks typically
experienced frame cracks more often than the S&Ws did, but it wasn't
uncommon for a Smith to fail in some other respect, i.e, a broken
extractor, firing pin, etc.
#From what I recall, the torture test was something like 5000 rounds
with out a single malfunction. No pistol was ever cleaned during the
test. The only time a pistol was disassembled after the testing began
was if it failed.
I seem to recall that once the 10mm had been ruled out as a round due
to its heavy recoil and the 40 was accepted, the S&W 4006 that made
the 5000 round mark had a problem with a "creeping" firing pin. The
pin would work itself loose and had to be pushed back in with a
finger so testing could resume. While not ruled a product failure (
she kept on spitting out lead), it finally broke somewhere around
5200 rounds I think. Glock, as I understood it, had to scramble to
design a pistol capable of firing the 40 S&W and as such was
handicapped from a R&D perspective.
I also have the feeling the test was slanted in favor for the S&W.
After all, one of the requirements for pistol selection was ease of
take-down in the field and requiring no tools. Heck, what's easier
than a Glock?? Even in the dark?? And the CHP had stringent deadlines
for submitting pistols for evaluation. Made things kinda' hard for
Glock and Colt. And the 40 had only been around for a few months.
Hmmmmmmmm........

David A. Horton
University of Alabama
From: rboudrie@chpc.org (Rob Boudrie)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Hansen Ammo
Date: 22 Jan 93 23:40:40 GMT
Organization: Center For High Perf. Computing of WPI; Marlboro Ma

In article <9301201823.AA00470@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> hacker@coos.dartmouth.edu (Fred L. Hacker) writes:
#Has anyone tried the Hansen 9mm ammo.  I went through a
#couple boxes of it in a Beretta 92 without any problems.
#I would like to keep using it as its the cheapest practice
#ammo I've found but not if it is poor quality and could give
#me problems in the future. Has anyone had problems or good 
#experiences with the Hansen 9mm ammo?  Does anyone know what
#the ballistics are for the Hansen 115 gr. 9mm. ?
#
#Thanks 
#Fred


I've had one problemn with the Hansen 45 ammo (headstamp resembling
"nny").

All the ammo worked flawlessly, but reloads in the nny cases frequeltly
don't go off - I think it's an overly deep primer pocket.  (EVERY 
failure to fire out of thousands of rounds of 45 I loaded were with nny
brass which made up less than 1% of my supply of mongrel cases).  I
think I've gotten rid of all the nny cases, but I stil check headstamps
before doing any serious shooting with my 45 reloads.

I don't know if 9mm Hansen amo has a similar problem, but you might
want to check.

                                        rob b.
From: WES@SSCVX1.ssc.gov (Wes Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: FFL Application Form Question?
Date: 22 Jan 93 23:39:56 GMT
Organization: SSC Laboratory

I received an FFL application yesterday in the mail.  The BATF people seem
real adamant about the FFL being issued for business purposes, rather than
personal use (my intentions).  They insist that you have regular business
hours and be open to the public.  Since I am not intending to buy and sell
guns as a business would, and not keep regular hours for the public (I
don't even wish to deal with the public), how do I answer on the form?  Is
this some attempt by the Feds to limit the FFLs being issued?  It seems
unreasonable to me that they would attempt to limit issuance to business
organizations only.  Or did I miss a real obvious answer for the hobbyist?

Thanks in advance for all replies - Wes Smith
From: dcwst8+@pitt.edu (David C Winters)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Glock Defense (Re: Glock vs. SIG!?)
Date: 28 Jan 93 04:17:04 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh


In article <93026.224321U28037@uicvm.uic.edu> U28037%uicvm.uic.edu@OHSTVMA.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Jason Kratz) writes:
#In article <4380@eastman.UUCP>, (MJ) says:
##I think the following is the bottom line between the two guns:
##
##1)  Many will not be able to get by the cost of the SIG.
##2)  Many will not get by the trigger of the Glock.
##3)  Many will not get by the looks of the Glock.
##
##MJ
#Maybe I am the only person on here who doesn't think this way.  I think the
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
#Glock looks REALLY cool.  I guess Hollywood likes them too cause I've seen
#them in several movies.  The other thing that totally amazes me about the Glock
#is how light it is.  That's just my opinion tho......
#Jason Kratz

Nope.  I second the opinon.  Especially when it's been outfitted with
the Applied Laser Systems (I think thats the manufacturer) mini-laser
sight.  Except for the sticker they slap on the side of the slide.

The Glocks' weight didn't really register until I saw that the 21's are
only 2.something ounces heavier than Smith & Wesson's 9mm 39xx series...

--
David Winters
winters@vms.cis.pitt.edu
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Glock Defense (Re: Glock vs. SIG!?)
Date: 27 Jan 93 19:57:16 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

callison@kittyhawk.ecn.uoknor.edu (James P. Callison) writes:

##You'll either love the Glock trigger or hate it.
#Nah. It's OK, but I prefer DA/SA. I _hate_ true DAO. :-)

The other day I handled some interesting pistols:  the Bernadelli
9mm, which I never see advertized was one.   It is _kinda_ like
a SIG 210 ish double action thing.   Interesting.   The thing that
was suprising was the DAO trigger on the AMT on duty (bulky weird
gun, btw).   It was DA, but _light_, a mere fraction of the pull
on any of my "real" DA guns, and it seemed much shorter.    I wondered
how they could make it so short and light and still insure primers
go off.  Unlike Glock or S&W, this is a "real" DAO, as each trigger
pull results in a full hammer raise and fall.

Is the Seecamp light like that?

I doubt I'd buy it for any price, but the trigger was a nice 
feature, imo.

JD
From: roa@galen.med.Virginia.EDU (Robert O. Anderson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Synthetic Stocks
Date: 22 Jan 93 23:39:47 GMT


        
        Aftermarket stocks.....

Does anyone have any experience with any of the aftermarket synthetic
stocks?? Esp. H-S Precision??

bobby




-- 
"I have been told that men are natural warriors and killers and that
women are naturally kind, natural mothers, the protectors of stray
cats and waifs." - Jack O'Connor - Complete Book of Shooting - 1965
From:  (MJ)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 10mm Glock problems?(10mm Velocities)
Date: 25 Jan 93 14:00:16 GMT


In article <72zC03YNc9Wm00@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com>, barry@uts.amdahl.com
(Barry Needham) wrote:

# One of my 10mm Glocks now has slightly over 30,000 rounds through it.  Mostly
# 175 grain lead SWC at 1100 FPS, but I have experimented with some very hot
# loads:
# 
# 	200 Grain, JFP @ 1250 FPS	Kids, don't try this at home!
# 	155 Grain, JHP @ 1600 FPS
#                   ^^^^^^^^
# I also routinely function test (that's technical for shooting off the carry
# magazine) 175 Grain Winchester Silvertips moving at 1300 FPS.
                                                      ^^^^^^^^^

Are your velocities from a chronograph?  I've owned two M20's and both
wouldn't break 1200fps @ 15ft with Silvertips.  Hornady 155 grainers won't
break 1300fps.  They may both be slightly underloaded from a handloader's
standpoint but 1600fps??!!

MJ

[As if you didn't already know, my opinions are my own and not my
company's.]
From: ataylor@nmsu.edu (Nosy)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: well-armed pilots...
Date: 23 Jan 93 01:55:21 GMT
Organization: NMSU Computer Science

<In article <1993Jan15.120529.6095@michael.apple.com> ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith) writes:
<   In article <JGREELY.93Jan14200040@morganucodon.cis.ohio-state.edu> jgreely@cis.ohio-state.edu (J Greely) writes:
<   #The local campus paper ran a front-page photo today (above the fold)
<   #of an F-14 pilot (Lt. Doug Higgins) checking his pistol before flying
<   #off into combat in Iraq.  The pistol he's staring at (with his finger
<   #inside the trigger guard, sigh) is clearly an M1911A1.  Colonel Cooper
<   #would be pleased...

<   I've noticed that the ground forces in Somalia (Marines? Army?) are
<   all shown packing  Berettas, but the nightly news showed some Navy
<   footage.  The guy patrolling the deck was carrying what looked like
<   an M14, and the Navy pilot getting ready to Rock & Roll was checking
<   his 1911-A1.  Is the Navy more traditional than the Army, or just
<   likes Big Iron better, or just doesn't care as much about NATO
<   compatability, or what?  Kinda makes you fond of the Navy ;-)

	As has been pointed out by others, Navy doesn't rate
	very highly on the "small-arms pecking order".

	One friend of mine toted a Garand on guard duty for
	Navy in the early 1970's, for example, when even
	Reserve units in the Army were trading their M14's
	for M16's. I believe that it had been converted to
	7.62 NATO, however.
	
	A Navy game warden I met a while back from Norfolk,
	Virginia is still packing an issue M1911A1; he doesn't
	feel too deprived, though.

	During the Gulf War, all boarding parties on blockade
	duty were armed with M1911A1's, M14's and 870 shotguns.
	(With, from time to time, a Marine Cobra for "backup").


	Oddly enough, no resistance was encountered on any 
	boardings....wonder why?
From: TXK107@PSUVM.PSU.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Cheap 7.62X39
Date: 22 Jan 93 04:03:17 GMT
Organization: Penn State University


    The SGN on page 60, 1-10-93 lists German NON-CORROSIVE 1985 Manufacture
for $99.95 for 1480 rounds. This seems toooo gooood to be true. Does anyone
have any knowledge of the dealer?
                                    Old Sacramento Armoury
                                    Sacramento, CA
Is this East German steel case, steel core reliable and accurate?
If this is true I'll have to mothball my cheap reloading AR-15 and wear out
my SKS. I would especially like to know if the SKS functions well with this
ammo. Woops I forgot to mention this ammo is POST PAID ! This makes the cost
6.76 cents/round.
                                        Shoot cheap - Shoot often
                                        Terry Kuzma
                                        NRA Life Member
From: lilianstrom@krang.fnal.gov (If its too loud,  You're too old)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Ruger M77 MkII triggers
Date: 27 Jan 93 03:38:39 GMT
Organization: Fermilab Computing Division, Special Projects Group

In article <9301261436.AA09577@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov>, weed@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov (daniel weed 283-4162) writes:
#
#
#At the 1993 SHOT Show I talked to the Volquartsen's (my most humble
#apologies to them if I have misspelled their name), and handled a Ruger Mk II
#in which they had installed their "accurizing Kit", which includes
#a new trigger, sear, hammer, and mainspring.  The retail cost
#for this kit is around $70.
#
#The trigger pull was the nicest I've ever felt.  You could just place
#your finger on the trigger, and mentally fire the gun as if it were linked
#directly to your brain.
#
#I had a nice discussion with Karen V., and she assured me that the kit
#was a pure drop in, no smithing would be required.  Anyone who could 
#take down the Mk II to that level could install it, although she says the 
#mainspring requires 3 hands to install.
#
#My limited experience with drop in kits for the 1911 is that everything
#will require at least a little fitting since each gun is slightly
#different, and the manufacturers of the drop in parts make them just
#slightly oversize, in the right places, to assure they will fit in all
#guns. 
#
#So, my question to the net is: have any of you ever tried this kit?
#What do you think?
#
#The Volquartsen's also make a compensator for the bull barrel Mk II's
#that screws in where the front sight would be.  It is well made, and 
#has an "O" ring to seal the comp against the barrel.  Karen says
#it essentially eliminates what muzzle jump there is, and also increases
#the sight radius.  I think it retails for around $40.
#
#
#I think CLARK makes a trigger kit also (or else you send in your 
#Mk II and they modify it).  It's supposed to be cheaper but also 
#quite good. Anyone tried it?
#
#
#-- Dan
#
#----------------------------------------------------------------------------
#Daniel Weed                                       weed@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov
#McDonnell Douglas Space Systems Co. - Houston
#              "My comments are my own, not my employer's"

I have a Clark trigger in my MarkII.  It was installed by the resident 'smith
at the gun store I was working at.  The 'smith did no extra work on the action
after installing the trigger and, to me, it's perfect. A touch of take up, 2 lbs.
of pressure and bang!  Took me by surprise the first time as I wasn't expecting
it to fire that quickly.

I was thinking of getting that comp from Volquartsen's just to see what it does.
Seems like fun.

As a side note, there was a thread a while back about scope mounts for the 
MarkII.  If there was a summary published could someone forward it to me?

	TIA, al

Al Lilianstrom
Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory
Batavia, Illinois
lilianstrom@fndcd.fnal.gov

My opinion.  Not the DOE's, URA's, or anyone else at Fermilab