HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: azw@aber.ac.uk (Andrew Michael Woodward)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Gracie
Date: 8 Jan 93 09:29:28 GMT
Organization: University of Wales, Aberystwyth

>>The bottom line is: if you fall during a street fight, nothing can help you 
>>better than some knowledge of Gracie tecniques... 
>
In a one-on-one, in a situation where you are only interested in preventing
yourself from getting broken, not in damaging the aggressor, the ground is a 
good place to be. It is difficult for a standing person to close with someone
on the ground without risk. There are those who 'go to ground'
as first resort in this situation. Usually both parties walk away unharmed.

I have no idea how this relates to Gracie, whatever that may be. (So tell me?)
From: sandacz@gargoyle.uchicago.edu (Kay Sandacz)
Subject: japanese term
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 15:43:14 GMT

Does anyone know a collective term in Japanese for shinai, bokken,
jo, bo, tanto, and the like?  We call them weapons in English.

Thanks.

---  
 Kay Sandacz				What doesn't kill me makes me stranger.
From: schan@birch.srg.af.mil (Stephen Chan x4485)
Subject: Re: Taiji question - long form versus short forms
Organization: SRG, Arinc Research Corp., Annapolis, MD
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 93 20:36:13 GMT

In article <1ifp0bINNpm7@agate.berkeley.edu> robinson@cogsci.Berkeley.EDU (Michael Robinson) writes:
>No offense, but what exactly is it you do while practicing the long form,
>if not "really concentrate on the basics - stance, posture, footwork"?

	Ummmm...what the next move is supposed to be, where exactly your hands
are supposed to be, etc...

	Ideally one should be able to concentrate on the basics constantly,
but from a pedagogical point of view, it seems much easier to concentrate on
the basics if you isolate some aspects of the form, and practice nothing but
that. Or, if you simplify the motions.

--
	Stephen Chan
	uunet!srg!schan or uunet!srg!schan@uunet.uu.net
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: schan@birch.srg.af.mil (Stephen Chan x4485)
Subject: Re: Taiji question - long form versus short forms
Organization: SRG, Arinc Research Corp., Annapolis, MD
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 93 16:00:37 GMT

	So far, I've heard some very good arguments for the long form. My own
bias is towards the longer form, but recently, I asked my instructor what his
opinion was on the long/short forms, and he said that he felt it was a
difficult question and that he was didn't have an answer either way.

	I think that the arguments for short forms revolve around convenience,
principle over technique, and the fact that at high levels of skill, an
exchange rarely lasts beyond 1 or 2 techniques - so a larger set of movements
may not provide much benefit.
	Apparently, the classical example of a successful style which places
emphasis on principle over technique would be I-Chuan (Da Cheng Quan sp?).
	Another argument is that martial ability is most sensitive to increases
in basics training - stance, posture, footwork. If you do 2 repetitions of the
long form, you have spent anywhere from 30 to 90 minutes of your training time,
this gives less time to really concentrate on the basics.

	My own experience is that subtle nuances of movement reveal themselves
to you when you allow the motion to develop on it's own. In a sense, the form
doesn't really teach the movement - it just points you in the right direction,
and its up to the practitioner to "discover" the movement for themself.
	If that's the case, then does a longer form really teach you finer
nuances? Or would you discover it anyway?

	I'm going to be moving (again) later this week, and have been
contacting Taiji instructors back in Pittsburgh. Yesterday, I talked to one
instructor, and he brought up a very traditional reason for long forms: he
said that he teaches the long form as he learned it, and that he would not
dare to change the form - as a teacher, he's entrusted with passing on the
system, and not diluting it, abbreviating it or commercializing it.

--
	Stephen Chan
	uunet!srg!schan or uunet!srg!schan@uunet.uu.net
From: robinson@cogsci.Berkeley.EDU (Michael Robinson)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Taiji question - long form versus short forms
Date: 7 Jan 1993 23:35:10 GMT
Organization: Institute of Cognitive Studies, U.C. Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: cogsci.berkeley.edu

In article <1993Jan07.203613.22958@srg.srg.af.mil> schan@birch.srg.af.mil (Stephen Chan x4485) writes:
>In article <1ifp0bINNpm7@agate.berkeley.edu> robinson@cogsci.Berkeley.EDU (Michael Robinson) writes:
>>No offense, but what exactly is it you do while practicing the long form,
>>if not "really concentrate on the basics - stance, posture, footwork"?
>
>	Ummmm...what the next move is supposed to be, where exactly your hands
>are supposed to be, etc...

If you have to consciously think about what the next move is, you can't 
really *do* the form.  You have to practice until it becomes automatic.

As for *exactly* where the hands should be, that is more a matter of 
individual interpretation and preference.  The details are not so important
as making sure the hand motion conforms to Taiji principles of relaxation,
connectedness, and proper alignment.

>	Ideally one should be able to concentrate on the basics constantly,
>but from a pedagogical point of view, it seems much easier to concentrate on
>the basics if you isolate some aspects of the form, and practice nothing but
>that. Or, if you simplify the motions.

Well, there is merit in practicing the basics on a single movement in 
isolation, but this practices something different from practice of the
basics in the form.


-- 
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Michael Robinson                          UUCP:   ucbvax!cogsci!robinson
                                        INTERNET: robinson@cogsci.berkeley.edu
From: bleys@wisdom.bubble.org (Bill Cavanaugh)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Beer War
Date: 5 Jan 93 01:07:17 GMT
Organization: Xanadu Enterprises, Inc.

In article <MARY.93Jan3221844@cuba.Cayman.COM> mary@Cayman.COM (Mary Malmros) writes:
>
>And some people say, "I flamed too soon," which is what I'm saying.  Sorry
>about that, Bob and Bill.  I didn't mean to imply that you're a pair of 
>irresponsible drunkards, although Bob has apparently taken it that way.  
>I'm willing to chalk it up to my miscommunication and let it drop.  
>Friends?

Of course!  Frankly, I didn't even realize that you were flaming, just
expressing an opinion.  After three or four years of net.life you get a
pretty thick skin.  You >did< seem to be saying that anybody who went to a
bar was irresponsible, but I didn't think that was what you meant.

bill
-- 
 *         Bill Cavanaugh       bleys@wisdom.bubble.org          *
XY + XX = :-)
From: snorthc@relay.nswc.navy.mil (Stephen Northcutt - K31)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Well, well... (last)
Date: 8 Jan 93 20:16:24 GMT
Reply-To: snorthc@relay.nswc.navy.mil
Organization: Naval Surface Warfare Center

Bzzzzt, I think I just heard a wakeup call :-) 

Peter Capell writes:
>My comment here was that Christianity (the west) has no analogous activity to
>eastern meditation to derive meaning.  It is an essential distinction.  It
>could not possibly "sound familiar" that people might spend hours meditating
>on a single Bible phrase for example, because it doesn't happen at all in the
>same way.  There is no analogous activity.

Ever hear of a rosary?

Anywho I am a people.  I meditate (especially before sparring).  I used
to meditate primarily using one of two techniqes:
	- mantra (repeating till autonomous)
	- passage of Tao (meditation on meaning)

This has not changed, the mantra has:
	From *my_secret_word* To Jesus for 2 syllable single word mantra 
	From AuOhmmmmmm mani padme hummmmme to Jesus has the grace to forgive

For meditation on a passage, here are some short takes:
Does anyone else get really uptight before sparring?  I'm OK after I
finally get going, but waiting on deck drives me nuts, always has:

While waiting to be called into the ring  Psalm 101 4-5 (KJV)
My heart is smitten like withered grass so that I forget to eat my bread.

For multiple opponents how bout Psalm 118 12-13 (NIV)
They swarmed about me like bees, but they died out as quickly as
burning thorns; in the name of the Lord I cut them off.

And Peter for your inevitable caustic reply Psalm 101 8 (KJV)  :-)  :-)
My enemies reproach me all the day, and they that are mad against me are
sworn against me.

And for those who think this thread will never end (forget ref.)
This too shall pass.
 
Stephen N.
From: tongl@ecf.toronto.edu (TONG LARRY HIGH YOUNG)
Subject: SWORDMAKER IN CANADA
Summary: SWORDS FOR PURCHASE
Keywords: Hand-made beautifully functional swords
Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 02:45:44 GMT

If you are sword practioner or collector, and are interested in acquiring 
a sword made by a North American sword-maker, please e-mail me at the above
address. 

The sword-maker is a friend of mine who lives in Ontario, and he makes both
katana and European-style blades.

Regarding his European blades, he specializes in particular in the long Viking-
style blades which are about 4-5 feet long from tip to pommel, and possess a
straight-edge until about five hands from the hilt where the edge is then serrated for a few hands-width. As well, he makes daggers and throwing knives, and
more.

Regarding his katana: I hesitate at using the term "katana", not because they
are not so, in my view, but because there are purists who may regard anything
not conventional or traditional with skepticism or even contempt.

Nonetheless, they are swords designed for the style of training that I would term kenjitsu, and are both highly functional and well-made. These North American
katana have cut through 4 to 5 inch diameter tree branches in a single cut.


Also, for the student of kendo, my friend has high-quality reproductions 
as well as older mass-produced katana available.


Lastly, some old (Koto and pre-Koto) Japanese katana are available for 
purchase as well.


If interested, please reply by postmail/e-mail to:

Larry Tong at
tongl@ecf.toronto.edu.

  
P.S- Any technical or terminological mistakes above were strictly my own, as
	the sword-maker concerned has not seen this letter, nor dictated it to          me.
 
                  


  
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Date: Tue,  5 Jan 1993 13:35:22 -0500 
From: Stephen Chan <sc1u+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Taiji question - long form versus short forms

	I've been kicking around a question which I'd like to through
out to the net cream-puffs.

	Given that you could get equivalent instruction, is the long
form better for practice or would it be better to have a short form,
so that you can concentrate on basics?
	I guess the same applies to folks in other systems with
long/short forms (hell, who doesn't?). If the form is very long, then
you may end up slaving away, trying to remember the fine nuances of
the form, while your attention to basic principles starts to wane.
	But if a long form is easy to remember because of multiple
repeated sequences, then why bother with all the repetition within a
single form - why not just repeat a shorter form a few times?

	I'd really appreciate other folk's thoughts on this.

	Stephen Y. Chan
	stevec+@cmu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com (Todd I. Stark)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Science and Chi
Date: 11 JAN 93 15:16:38
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
NNTP-Posting-Host: DWOVAX


ek@patty.gud.siemens.co.at (Ernst Krudl) writes...

...
>Also this thread was very interesting from a cultural view. I have never heard
>of so specific scientific boxes one has to fit into. Sort of philosophical
>categories of scientists or scientific approach. THis seems to be common
>more in the anglo... way of thinking. THis is not to judge, just a different
>view.
>Ernst Krudl, Vienna, Austria, Europe (ek@patty.gud.siemens.co.at)

	The way I look at it is this ...

	When you visit Paris, you use a map of Paris; when you visit
	Rome, likewise.  Each science maps a slightly different territory
	and aspires to great precision in describing that territory.

	It's not a problem, unless you don't realize what city you're in,
	or can't locate the right map and you try to use the wrong one for
	the territory.

	If we're lucky, in some areas, nature might provide some elegant ways 
	to integrate these different maps into a single one with respect to
	certain human activities, to provide a higher level view.  

	The implications are probably mostly relevant to *education*,
	which is what suffers most from the extreme degree of specialization
	in the various fields.   People in the various fields have a hard time
	even talking to each other, much less learning something significant
	from each other.

							kind regards,

							todd
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Todd I. Stark				  stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com           |
| Digital Equipment Corporation		             (215) 354-1273           |
| Philadelphia, Pa. USA                                                       |
|  "I'm in a hurry, I don't know why.  All I really gotta do is live and die" |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: psc@sei.cmu.edu (Peter Capell)
Subject: Re: "Oriental Dancing"
Organization: Software Engineering Institute
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 11:18:13 EST


>06-Jan-93 21:47 curt@access.digex.com (curt williams)	Re: "Oriental dancing"

>Not "anti-American," just grossly uninformed.

Not uninformed...  Actually, it's our smartest against theirs, and we lose,
that's all.  No one argues that we "educate" more people than they.  I think
there is probably good in not having everyone go lock step through the same
curriculum.  If the quality of life is reasonable for everyone, why bother
with all of the indoctrination that most often is really just "job training"
anyway.  

>The only evidence I see of our lack of smarts is the fact that we keep
>doing for the rest of the world.

So in other words you feel that the world is beholden to us.  Amusing.  You
simply have no idea what the rest of the world has and of which the U.S. is
bereft.  Hey, but we sher do have money eh?
From: jo.lavoy%theweb@meaddata.com (Jo Lavoy) 
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: NINJUTSU
Date: 8 Jan 93 07:51:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Web BBS 1-513-436-9011 6 Lines 1200 News groups 50,000 files!
Reply-To: jo.lavoy%theweb@meaddata.com (Jo Lavoy) 

     I've posted a couple of things here about ninjutsu but rarely see a
reply and NEVER a reply to me (which is downright discouraging when you
have to wade through hundreds of messages).   Is there nobody else here
who studies Togakure ryu Ninjutsu?  Even better would be to "meet"
someone who attended Stephen K. Hayes' seminars and who was working
within his Kasumi-An system.
   
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: curt@access.digex.com (curt williams)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Strength vs. Skill
Date: 6 Jan 1993 04:19:17 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

Michael Robinson says:
>So, to the contrary, I believe the great disservice being done to students
>of Judo is emphasizing strength, weight and conditioning over those unique
>aspects of the art which make it the "gentle way".  I just cannot see how 


I agree completely with everything you've said, but I've never heard
anyone say that Kano was "weak."  I'm well versed in the "empty jacket"
story, which only indicates that Kano was not only a gifted and highly
conditioned athlete, but also a master of technique. Which every serious
student should strive to be.

I will extend myself even further and state without equivocation, that
a "weak" person can never excel [cannot even become competent]
in Judo.  I don't think someone who is "weak" can take the breakfalls.
My position should not be distorted however, by implying that I've
said that strength is a substitute for technique.  It is not.  However,
there are self defense techniques which are relatively simple and can
be learned in a short time.  A student who's primary interest is self
defense should be conditioned and taught simple techniques.  If they
then choose to continue studying more esoteric or complicated methods,
there is nothing stopping them.

I ought to state a bias here:  I am very familiar with one of the better
known Korean "masters" in Washington, DC who intrudes indirect
suggestions to his students indicating that they can't "really
defend themselves" until the are at least 4th degree.  It's a
marketing technique and he laughs about it behind his students backs.
It makes me want to tear his face off everytime I see.

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: azw@aber.ac.uk (Andrew Michael Woodward)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Taiji question - long form versus short forms
Date: 8 Jan 93 09:35:35 GMT
Organization: University of Wales, Aberystwyth

>	Ideally one should be able to concentrate on the basics constantly,
>but from a pedagogical point of view, it seems much easier to concentrate on
>the basics if you isolate some aspects of the form, and practice nothing but
>that. Or, if you simplify the motions.
>
This depends on whether you are artist or a thug. To be a really effective
thug, any technique must be minimalist and foolproof, so as to work 
perfectly in extremis, every time. (OK, I know there shouldnt ever be a time).
Developpment should be a process of pruning. (and apparently misspelling).
From: N.C.Thomas@newcastle.ac.uk (N C Thomas)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Re: MOTHER PICKS UP CAR
Date: 5 Jan 93 17:17:09 GMT
Organization: University of Newcastle upon Tyne, UK, NE1 7RU
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

In the replies to the above posting a few people state that
the muscles of the body have more strength than they are
allowed to exert. This is said to occur by unconcious control
which swithches off the muscle to prevent injury through exertion.

Is the unconcious control, alledged to be affected by PCP, not the
same control as that exploited by martial artists when using PNF for
stretching exercises? The technique fools the muscle that it is over
stretched by triggering the proprioceptors, causing it to relax and
allowing further streching to take place. Does PCP affect the Proprio-
ceptors and could it assist in a stretching programme (not that I'm
willing to try it!)    

???

N.T.
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
From: cyeomans@ms.uky.edu (Charles Yeomans)
Subject: Re: Martial arts and the gut
    <1993Jan5.171923.6433@desire.wright.edu> 
    <1993Jan06.150307.24023@srg.srg.af.mil>
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 16:46:26 GMT
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences

In article <1993Jan06.150307.24023@srg.srg.af.mil> schan@birch.srg.af.mil (Stephen Chan x4485) writes:
>In article <1993Jan5.171923.6433@desire.wright.edu> jchristian@desire.wright.edu writes:
>>abdominals.  Ida Rolf reports that in order to maintain abdominal balance, the
>>rectus abdominals must be balanced with the psoas, which lie rather deep and
>>are difficult to affect through voluntary exercises.
>
>	In all the literature that I'm familiar with, the psoas are worked by
>leg lifting exercises, and situps: they bend you at the hips.
>
>>  However, some stretches
>>to keep the psoas limber will minimize the imbalance.
>
>	My personal experience is that its tough to hit the psoas with a
>stretch - what stretch do you use?
>
Try a lunge stretch with the back leg turned toward the inside of
the body.  For a more dynamic exercise, try sprinting.  Good runners
tend to have good flexibility in this area (unlike most others).


Charles Yeomans
From: david@elwood.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (David Johnson)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Bruce Tegner
Date: 4 Jan 93 18:01:10 GMT

In article <1i5f3oINNfdb@male.EBay.Sun.COM>, scheid@danzan.EBay.Sun.COM (David Scheid) writes:
|> In article I8A@sju.edu, tmoody@sju.edu (T. Moody) writes:
|> >
|> >In defense of Bruce Tegner, I'd have to say that he has written one of
|> >the more practical and sensible books on self-defense.
|> 
|> This probably says more about the lack of quality MA books than
|> it does about Tegner's "works". I never saw anything in his
|> books which I considered redeeming. His Jujutsu style was 1900ish
|> or thereabouts. Always looking at Uke while throwing, etc. Many
|> of his forms as well as finishing posture was equally weak.
|> 
|> I didn't buy them because I never believed them to have any value
|> - historical or otherwise.

I have not read any of BT's books since I was 10 years old but something
I did see in one of his books did help me thwart a mugging of me when
I was 11 years old by a couple of bullies.  It saved me from losing
about $10.  $10 in 1973, especially to a 11 year old, was a lot
of money.

-- 
David Johnson
XLNT Designs, Inc. (XDI)
david@xlnt.com
From: scheid@danzan.EBay.Sun.COM (David Scheid)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Taiji question - long form versus shor
Date: 9 Jan 1993 02:03:25 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: scheid@danzan.EBay.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: danzan.ebay.sun.com


Just as a matter of interest - the number 108 is something of
a "mystical" or "magical" number in Chinese culture. I believe
it signifies something like complete, finished, whole.

It is much like the number 7 in Judaism. 7 days in a week and
creation was completed, forgive 7x7, etc. The number 40 in Judaism
signified a long period of time....

The number 3, 9, 36 and 108 are all related and have various 
importance, it seems. 3 signifies Tao (Heaven, Earth and Man).

---
Dave Scheid - All Disclaimers Apply


Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts