From: ghbr@fmg.bt.co.uk (Hossein Bagherzadeh Rafsanjani)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
Subject: Re: Budhisim / Islam, TRAPPED GIRL
Date: 17 Nov 92 00:05:56 GMT

In article <1d7p8uINNcgn@aludra.usc.edu> jodar@chaph.usc.edu (Nicholas Jodar) writes:

> In article <30OCT199203491099@romeo.caltech.edu> f43703a@nucc.cc.nagoya-u.ac.jp (SUPRATIC GUPTA) writes:

> >;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
> >
> >This is a real life problem. It is the problem of a girl.
> >I call her "TRAPED GIRL". What is her status according to
> >TRUE ISLAMIC law.
> >
> >This TRAPED GIRL is muslim by birth. She is in love with
> >a non-islamic boy. She dosn't personally mind excepting the 
> >boy's religion. In some case it may happen that she may not
> >like Islam. 

> That's her choice.

> >What is her status? Will she be punished in case she decides
> >to change religion? What is her punishment? Is it death? 

> No.

> If a person becomes apostate, (turns away from Islam), they are
> no longer a member of Islamic society.  In effect, they have cut
> themselves off from their family.  Other than this, and the fact
> that they will no longer recieve any help from Allah (SWT), (and
> will go to Hell), there is no direct punishment in this life. 
> (Only Allah (SWT) can punish people for spurning His Grace and
> Mercy to them.)

> HOWEVER, if a person turns apostate THREE TIMES, it is the duty
> of all muslims to kill them on sight, as they are renegade. 
> (ie.  There is no longer any possibility that they will revert 
> to Islam.)

Well, that may be according to your version of Islam.  The Shia
version, as practiced in Iran, is different.  See the following which I
posted someteim ago on a related case:

------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian,soc.rights.human,talk.religion.misc
From: ghbr@fmg.bt.co.uk (Hossein Bagherzadeh Rafsanjani)
Subject: Re: PROMINENT IRANIAN BAHA'I EXECUTED
Organization: British Telecom
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 92 09:23:17 GMT
In article <dfs.703194746@ro> dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll) writes:

In <1992Apr13.174855.3057@cs.brown.edu> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:

>If I am not mistaken, the Baha'i religion originated in Iran about a 
>hundred and fifty years ago. It calls (among other things) to 
>brotherhood of all people, and is very peaceful. 

>Why are these people persecuted and killed in Iran?

>The Baha'i center is in Haifa, Israel. Could that have anything
>to do with it?

Possibly, but I'd doubt it - the Iranian govt has persecuted Baha'is
much more brutally than it has Jews.  For some reason, they have a
hatred towards Baha'i philosophy.  Maybe a militaristic state which
advocates exporting revolution throughout the Middle East feels
threatened by a group espousing pasificism, tolerance and brotherhood.

The execution of Baha'is is one of the most deplorable atrocities carried out
by the Iranian regime.  And the reasons are more than just a "hatred towards
Baha'i philosophy".  

There is a distinction in Islamic, and in particular Shi'a, jurisprudence
between pre and post Islamic beliefs and also between someone born inside a
religious belief and someone who acquires one.  

Islam, on its own birth, accepted existing religions but regarded them as
elapsed.  But then, faced with the resistance of adherents of those faiths to
convert to Islam, made a concession and allowed them to continue in their
beliefs with some restriction in the Islamic society.  But any religion born
after Islam, especially in its own realm, is regarded as a heresy and so is
unacceptable as a religion.  In view of the Islamic theologists, to do
otherwise is an admission of inadecquacy of Islam.  They regard Islam as the
last and most perfect religion for all time.  The ones coming before it were
imperfect.  The one coming after it make Islam look imperfect by implication.
That is something very hard to accept by an Islamic theologian.  The result is
persecution and murder on a grand scale as Baha'is have witnessed in Iran and
other folowers of similar beliefs in other Moslem countries.

But there is another feature which is more strange (and anti-human) and is
common in respect of ALL non-Islamic religions.  That is: A person
born as a result of Islamic wed-lock has virtually no right to convert to 
any other religion.

Again, the "rationale" behind it is that such an action is a proclamation that
the other religion is somehow better than Islam.  If you are born with that
belief you may be forgiven.  But if you have experienced Islam, how dare you
declare a deficiency in Islam by converting to some other religion?  This has
been the ground for executing a number of Christians in Iran who by their very
name were obvious to have been born as Moslems!  Two of such executions are
Hassan Dehghaani Tafti (a Bishop In Tehran/Esfahan) and Hossein Soodmand (in
Mashhad).  A convert to Baha'i faith can hardly expect a better treatment.

Indeed, the treatment of someone who is born as Moslem and then is converted to
some other religion is very severe.  In Shi'a (I am not sure of other
Islamic sects' positions on this), such a person is condemned to death and no
repentence is allowed (mortadd-e fetri)!  This is in contrast with someone who
first converts from another religion to Islam and then changes her/his mind and
goes back to the old religion (mortadd-e melli).  The action of both is
regarded as a capital offence and punished by death.  But in the second case,
repentance is allowed and the death threat may be lifted.  However, there is no
way out for the one who is born in a Moslem family.  S/HE HAS TO DIE.  Period.

This is indeed a good example of the "Islamic tolerance" that many Islamic
and/or Shi'a authorities claim, and use verses of Qor'an (especially Surah 109:
The Unbelivers) to "substantiate" their claim.  This also explains why in view
of the Shi'a authorities in Iran, the death sentence on Salman Rushdie may
never be lifted--no matter what he will be ready to do.  After all, he was born
in a Moslem family, and his action in writing Satanic Verses is tantamount to
rejecting Islam (in favour of atheism, say).

Of course, using this criteria implies that millions of Iranians should be 
sentenced to death.  But then you can not kill people in their millions.  
However, they did murder quite a lot of people, who were charged with being
apostate, in early years of the revolution.  And they also pick up on someone
like Rushdie because of its international significance for propaganda
purposes in the Islamic world.

-hossein