From: jean@cs.cornell.edu (Jean M. Petrosino)
Subject: Re: Living in a State of Siege
Organization: Cornell Univ. CS Dept, Ithaca NY 14853
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 21:03:28 GMT

Dave Gross states:
	That people can say this (that women are living in a state of 
	siege) with a straight face shows me again just how important
	it is that there is a men's movement examining the male gender
	role and the formation of masculinity -- BECAUSE FEMINISM IS 
	SURE DOING A LOUSY JOB OF IT.

I agree that it is important for men to collectively investigate the male 
gender role and the formation of masculinity - it has many problems.  Did you
really expect the feminist movement to do it for you?  I don't think you would
have appreciated the results even if we were willing to do this.

	"We men" are surrounded by violence from our circumcision
	in infancy (no anaesthesia, thank you) to being bullied in
	elementary school; from trying out for the football team in
	high school to registering for the draft; from being several
	times more likely than our sisters to be murdered to 
	watching boxing on television; from visiting Arlington National
	Cemetary to running our fingers along the Vietnam War Memorial.

You bring up some very valid and well-expressed experiences me must endure.

	The leading cause of death for young black men is murder.
	Don't try to tell me they need their consciousness raised
	about those poor women who can't go jogging at night.

Actually, black men can relate quite easily to the fear of violence that women
feel.  Both groups know what it is like to live with the fear of being in the
right place at the wrong time.  For example, that black undercover cop who was
recently shot because two other cops thought he was mugging a woman, when in 
fact, he was arresting her.  

	Over 90% of those killed on the job in the United States
	are men

Relevant.

	But at least they aren't victims of sexual harrassment.

Uncalled for sarcasm.  One victim's tragedy should not be judged by another's.

	Who are being bashed in gay bashing? Gay MEN, by an over-
	whelming majority. 

I'd like to see some statistics on this one.  Lesbian women have to deal with 
BOTH homophobia and sexism - they are doubly in danger.

	You don't think men live in fear of violence? Think again!
	I don't want to hear that anymore! What we are as men, our
	masculinity, our sex role is formed and enforced by violence.

Very relevant and well-stated anger.  I agree that violence effects men a lot. 

	If a man is afraid to walk to his car at night, he does it
	anyway.  If he asks for an escort, he's a "faggot" and is
	liable to be beat up for that.  If he gets assaulted on the 
	way to the car, he just stays quiet about it because BOYS
	DON'T CRY, dammit, and what? Didn't you fight back?  What a
	wimp.

And women are told they are helpless and why can't they take care of themselves?  You are a slut if you didn't fight off that guy that raped you and if you 
were lucky enough to only get mugged, you were stupid for being in the wrong
place at the right time.  AND when we do cry and talk about it, we're not told
we are upset or angry, we are told to stop being so hysterical.

These are the same problems, the same issues, they're just modified according 
to which gender the victim is.  What men get in these situations isn't any 
better than what women get, it's just slightly ...well, different but the same


	Don't try to get my sympathy by telling me how women live
	in a state of siege.  Sister, you don't know how easy you've
	got it.


WRONG! Nobody has it easy.  We just need to open up better communication
 channels.