From: zen@death.corp.sun.com (d)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: Value of white het-boys lives
Date: 29 Sep 92 15:54:31 GMT
	<ZEN.92Sep28113316@death.corp.sun.com> <22575@galaxy.ucr.edu>
Organization: savage hackers
NNTP-Posting-Host: death.corp.sun.com
In-reply-to: starbuck@ucrmath.ucr.edu's message of 29 Sep 92 07:13:04 GMT


In article <22575@galaxy.ucr.edu> starbuck@ucrmath.ucr.edu (starbuck) writes:
   In article zen@death.corp.sun.com (d) writes:
> >The boy part, to me, at least, refers to the "old-boy" network, ...
> Ah, what is the "old-boy" network?  Is it a "plot to keep outsiders out or
> is it something else?
> I claim that feminists misunderstand the what the "old-boy" network is.  At 
> the center of what you call the "old-boy" network are the webs of frienship,
> family ties, and loyalty relationships that have more to do with the people
> involved then the people who are not.

  There is a problem here... people in power can and do give power or
assistance to people they think are qualified or are friendly too,
right?  So what's the problem?  The problem is in perception.  Women are
not usually perceived as being competant or as viable long term workers
(hell, they'll just go off and have kids, leaving us in the lurch), so
why would anyone recommend one?  I'm not saying that no one recommends a
woman for a job, or gives favors to women; the problem is that the
"old-boy" network gives favors and power to people they are comfortable
with and know -- other "old-boys", or soon-to-be-old-boys.  E.g. other
men.  Someone posted recently something to the effect of "we aren't
standing in the way of women getting jobs, etc."  That may be true --
I see the problem as much worse -- saying that you're not hindering
women, and perhaps not, while at the same time *helping* men.  This
perpetuates the problems of power inbalance.  There's absolutely nothing
wrong with helping a friend out.  It's when this whole system turns into
a machine that chews and spits out some while helping others, in an
entirely arbitrary and inherently unfair way that it becomes unfair.

> Femininsts may think it is wrong but that is only from their prospective.

  Sure, easy for you to say -- you're on the right side of the fence.
Again, why should things change for you?  You've got what you want.
Let's keep the status quo, eh?

> A prospective they have only because they are cut out of somethings.  But
> femininsts do the samething.  Since they do they have no right to be 
> critical of other people for it.  It is more paranoia that an issue.

  Paranoia?  It's not the *concept* that is a problem here -- it's the
*practice*.  There is discrimination going on, right now, and you say
just lay back and think of england?

> Would you not take a position because it was in part to be gained by
> feminist contacts?  Surley you would and not have a loss of sleep over
> it.  If you choose to do the SAME THING then I will not listen to any
> argument that you make for me to do any different.

  Once again, it's not the concept that's the issue.  I'm for equality -- 
it's not here.  Let's change that.

> Many men I know are now inculding their daughters and the daughters of
> friends in the "old-boy" network  by setting them up with the right people.
> Many men are doing the same thing for women they know or worked with.
> I have aided women in getting connected, it is how it works and nothing you
> or anyone else can do will stop it.  Ties of blood and friendship, and race
> and religion and many many other bonds between humans will continue to prevail.

  We can only hope (the last sentence, that is.)  There is an additional
problem that women face now, that of backlash.  Men are so convinced
that women are getting all the advantages now that they go further out
of their way to "put them in their place."  This country and much of the
world pays lip service to women while stabbing them in the back at the
same time.  I'm all for networking and community and communication...
just let everyone in, and stop discriminating against characteristics
that don't matter to the task at hand.

 -- d