HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dam@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (David Morning)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Celtic Cross
Date: 3 Sep 92 09:39:06 GMT
Organization: Glasgow University Computing Science Dept.

sej@allspice.unx.sas.com (Samuel Johnson) writes:


>vlaad@brewich.hou.tx.us (Vlaad Thunarsson) says:

>> (Yes, Evelyn, it is religious, and in Europe the religion in question is
>> the worship of the Unconquerable Sun; it predates The Thing That Dripped
>> Blood by a few thousand years).
>  
>I have sat by and read this celtic cross thread for a while now thinking
>"Well, I'll finally learn the real origin of this symbol." Then I noticed
>that the thread took a different turn: one of christianity bashing.

Then you've missed the whole point. BTW The above statement is attrib to
Jack Campin not Vlaad Thunarsson.

The initial question posed by Evelyn was 'Is it religious or is it pagan?"
with a clear implication that somehow paganism isn't a religion.

It then moved on to symbols and festivals borrowed by other religions, in
particular, christianity. I don't see how you can call this Christianity
Bashing....unless you're referring to Jack's tounge-in-cheek comment.

>pagans themselves would. Also, this idea that religions that predate
>christ are somehow more legitimate, are simply ludicrous. 

No one has said that but there was a clear implication that somehow paganism
wasn't a legitimate religion, or less legitimate than Christianity, hence the
response.


Dave

-- 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,)
Subject: Re: Celtic Cross
Organization: Clarkson University
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 19:20:56 GMT

From article <1992Sep1.081143.23450@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk>, by newt@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Michael Steven Newton):
>   But, like Christian religious centers, they tended to be placed in
> areas of long standing spiritual awareness -- that is, overlying places
> that were previously used as pagan places of worship.
> 
>   -- mn

Not to belabor the obvious too much, it can also be seen that
christianity also use the pagan festivals. For example, Christ was not
born at christmas but the church wanted to make use of the festival at
the winter solstic, Lent is derived from a period called lenct (sp?)
which was the period when food was running short and people had to
reduce their diet by necessity, All Saints day (1st Nov.) is beside
halloween, and the 1st of May (the fertility festival) became the day of
Saint Joseph the worker, which then became the internationl labour day (except
in the US), ETC ETC.

															GW
From: mark@cs.hw.ac.uk (Mark Riordan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Civics test for Irish citizenship?? Is there one?
Date: 31 Aug 92 09:52:11 GMT
Organization: Dept of Computer Science, Heriot-Watt University, Scotland

In article <1992Aug28.122139.21643@cabell.vcu.edu> dresler@cabell.vcu.edu (Dan Resler) writes:
>
>The forms are turned in at the local Garda station and your
>references are checked out. After your check clears (in my opinion,
>the most important part of the exercise from the Irish government's point of
>view), you must go before a local (district?) judge and swear your

Well yes this is true in the general case but I have heard that
any law breaking that an applicant has carried out, and not
necessarily particularly serious ones can seriously damage your
case. The Gardai will check your criminal record and follow up
references etc. 

MARK


-- 
| JANET:    mark@uk.ac.hw.cs   Mark Riordan,                                 |
| Internet: mark@cs.hw.ac.uk   Dept of Computing and Electrical Engineering, |
| (031) 449-5111 x4172         Heriot-Watt University, Edinburgh, Scotland.  |
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: ckincy@cs.umr.edu (Charles Kincy)
Subject: Speaking of names...
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 05:22:34 GMT
Organization: University of Missouri - Rolla
Originator: ckincy@mcs213c.cs.umr.edu

All this talk about names has me wondering:  what's my Irish name?
I know my last name's Irish (I think...that's what I was told).

Just curious.

cpk
From: sooz@iastate.edu (Susan F Bradley)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Family Names
Date: 4 Sep 92 20:48:34 GMT
Article-I.D.: vincent1.sooz.715639714
Organization: Dept of English -- IOWA STATE UNIV

In <sedWoSG00UhB82VVlR@andrew.cmu.edu> bp2a+@andrew.cmu.edu (Betsy J. Pursh) writes:

>Anyone out there with the family names of Ivill or any derivative (I was
>told this was Welsh) or Schweppe (German) please send me mail.  And does
>anyone live in Norwich, England?  

>BETSY PURSH


Surprising though it may be - absolutely no one lives in Norwich. It's just a 
bunch of buildings.

Susan B
sooz@iastate.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: stacey@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu (Stacey B. Martin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Celtic origins and female heroines
Date: 3 Sep 92 14:25:36 GMT
Article-I.D.: constell.1992Sep3.142536.24597
Organization: AUS
Originator: usenet@essex.ecn.uoknor.edu

In article <skenny.715518886@femto.engr.mun.ca>, skenny@pico.engr.mun.ca (Shawn Kenny) writes:
> 
> newt@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Michael Steven Newton) writes:
> 
> >>followed by the Victorian Mythmakers...and despite the Valkyries there
> >>are no really good female role models for those of us who constitute 51%
> >>of the world.... 
> 
> >   This is something I think Celtic mythology and history provides a lot
> >   of good examples of: Boudicca, Meave, Dierdre, Macha, Epona, Bri/d, etc.
> 
> There is also Fiacal (Warrior) and Bodball (Druidess), these two women
> are related to the myth surrounding Fionn son of Cumaill.
> --
> =================================
> skenny@pico.engr.mun.ca
> St. John's, NF, CANADA
> "Have a touton or do without'n !"
> 
> 

I'm taking a class this semester on the History of Ireland, and I'm astounded by
the women in the Irish myths and epics. The most interesting thing to me is
that Maeve, for instance, has so much power and she is not a goddess.

I think if you read only the first chapter of "The Cattle Raid of Cooley," you'd
be pleasantly surprised and amused by Maeve. She's something else. I wouldn't
mind being her when I grow up. :-)

Stacey
From: rlwilliams@gallua.gallaudet.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: close
Date: 27 Aug 92 03:19:40 GMT
Organization: Gallaudet University

I saw an add for a series of three books by Robert Klee... a "green flag" 
series... I wonder if anyone has read it and what he/she might think of 
it...

rlwilliams@gallua
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: jaymin@maths.tcd.ie (Jo Jaquinta)
Subject: Re: Celtic Cross
Organization: Dept. of Maths, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland.
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 08:34:12 GMT

In article <1992Aug31.155209.25291@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> esh2@po.CWRU.Edu (Evelyn S. Hlabse) writes:
>On soc.culture.british someone is asking about the Celtic
>Cross and if it is pagan or religious.  I posted an answer
>that  it was religious.  If anyone has more information about
>the cross, please post to that group.
	If by "religious" you mean "Christian" than you are correct.
(pagans can be religious too!) The "Celtic Cross" (i.e. the cross with 
a circle superimposed on it) is entirely a Christian emblem. Folklore has
it that it was invented by St. Patrick as a mixture between the circle
representing a pre-christian sun-god (Lugh?) and the more traditional
Cristian cross to make Christianity more palatable to the natives.
	I've heard other theories that it was just added for structural 
support. Both are probably just as unlikely. I've visited a number of
pre-chirstian sites around Ireland dating from one century to three
mellinium before the Christian era. The closest I've seen to a circle
sign is the cup and circle carvings on stone and they pre-date Patrick by
a significant number of lifetimes. The support theory doesn't explain why
they carved circles around their crosses when they were on walls, etc.
	Personally I think it was just the artistic astetics of the time.

				Jo Grant

_______________________________________________________________________________
Jo Grant			| "Love is blind, or so it seems, to make me
jaymin@lanczos.maths.tcd.ie	| offer you my dreams. But after all is said and
44 Bancroft Ave., Tallaght,	| done, a blind man's dreams are not much fun."
Dublin 24, IRELAND		| -- Horslips, "The Blind Can't Lead the Blind"
From: mic@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Murray Cole)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Birthday bumps
Date: 26 Aug 92 08:49:15 GMT
Reply-To: mic@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Murray Cole)
Organization: Laboratory for the Foundations of Computer Science, Edinburgh U

In article <1992Aug26.002041.17665@microsoft.com> georgere@microsoft.com (George V. Reilly) writes:
>When I was growing up in Dublin, we had a rather ugly custom of
>giving somebody the "bumps" on their birthday.
>Does this happen anywhere else? 

Certainly used to happen in deepest Fife, just as you reported. Hardier
victims were just dropped for the last "bump".

Murray.
From: dfoley@testament.bbn.com (Dennis Foley )
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Trinity (was Re: Celtic Cross)
Date: 3 Sep 92 20:44:52 GMT
Organization: Bolt Beranek and Newman Inc., Cambridge MA
NNTP-Posting-Host: bbn.com

Isn't the importance of the number three in fact an Indo-European
concept (found in the Vedas, etc.)?




-------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                .   ,      . ,
Dennis Foley                "Riam n'ar druid o sbairn lann."  
(dfoley@testament.bbn.com)              - motto of the Irish Brigade,
The opinions are mine.                    Army of the Potomac
                            "I know of no way of governing mankind
                             but by conciliating them." - Chas. James Fox
                            "L'amour est si contraire." - Sartre
                            "Love stinks."              - J. Geils
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Celtic Cross
Date: 4 Sep 92 08:38:54 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London, UK.

From: dfair@octel.com (Donald Fair)
>        Where is the mention of swords or sorcery? When
>        have the peoples of the middle east not fought
>        endlessly over almost any religious ideal.
>        My question centered on a question of history
>        in hopes that I would get facts.

The facts are that the definition of the Christian Trinity was
fought out in the Eastern Roman Empire far away from any
Celtic-inhabited places, thus your suggestion that the concept
of the Trinity was adopted to please the Celts is almost
certainly wrong.

The reference to "swords-and-sorcery" is that there is a
tendency to want to see Celts and Celticism everywhere, to try
and back-project current fantasies onto the Celts rather than
any other tribal group, to ascribe anything mystical or
romantic to "Celtic influences". This tendency tends to
occur in people who enjoy that fictional genre set in a fantasy
world with made-up names often of vaguely Celtic appearance,
which is known (somewhat derogatorily, I admit) as
"swords-and-sorcery".

Matthew Huntbach
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,sci.physics,sci.misc
From: jlg@cochiti.lanl.gov (Jim Giles)
Subject: Re: Impure Mathematics
Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 18:26:03 GMT

In article <suzanne.74@mailhub.scf.lmsc.lockheed.com>, suzanne@mailhub.scf.lmsc.lockheed.com (Suzanne Barrett) writes:
|> [...
|>     COPY OF ENTIRE STORY POSTED *AGAIN*
|> ...]
|> I suppose the poster of this bit of sexist garbage is sitting at his 
|> terminal quite smug in the knowledge that he has generated a controversial 
|> topic.  I AM NOT AMUSED.  It is offensive, has no business on the Celtic 
|> board--or any other board! [...]

Ms. Barrett, if you disapprove of the story and think it's not appropriate
for any of these newsgroups - *DON'T* post it *AGAIN* yourself.  I take
no position on the value of the story (except to point out that it's
about as old as the century and may have interest as a cultural artefact
of a previous generation's disregard for PC attitudes).  It is, however, 
inconsistent to *both* distribute it *and* condemn it.

-- 
J. Giles
From: cockburn@edieng.enet.dec.com (Craig Cockburn)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Celtic languages (was: Re: FYI - Politics in NI)
Date: 4 Sep 92 16:56:11 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Co. Ltd., Reading, England


In article <1992Sep4.160607.22596@spider.co.uk>, alisonjw@spider.co.uk (Alison J Wyld) writes...
>In article <CC.92Sep3123403@arran.dcs.ed.ac.uk> cc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Chris Cooke) writes:
>>In article <1992Sep2.161310.6476@news.clarkson.edu> walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,) writes:
>>
>>   I do not want to sound like a pedant on this point (but I am going to
>>   nevertheless), but the settlers of which you speak were mostly Scots,
>>   and if the point is push it can be argued that originally they can from
>>   Irland in the 500s(?), therefore Irish Gaelic is part of their
>>   inheritance also (even though it was a little further back).
>>
>>The peoples of Scotland variously spoke Norse, Gaelic, Inglis (later Scots),
>>and Welsh.  I would think that most of the Scottish settlers spoke Scots when
>>they moved to Ulster, though I don't know for sure.

You missed out Pictish from the list. I think there's two theories with
this one, one that it was a branch of P-Celtic, the other that it was
non Indo-European. That was the language which gave rise to "Skye" "Mull" etc.

I saw a full list of Celtic languages the other day, in "The Cambridge
Encyclopedia of Language". It has a special section on Celtic languages
(only 2 pages!), I expect this special section is partly to do with the 
fact that the book is produced in North Wales!

From what I can remember, the list is:

Insular Celtic 
P-Celtic: Welsh, Breton, Cornish, Cumbric(extinct)
Q-Celtic: Scots Gaelic, Irish Gaelic, Manx

Non Insular Celtic (all extinct)
Gaulish (France)
Galatian (Spain)
I think there was another in the middle east

No mention of Pictish though.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Craig Cockburn, Digital Equipment Co. Ltd, Reading, England.     Suas
  Internet: cockburn@edieng.enet.dec.com                           leis
  UUCP:..!decwrl!edieng.enet.dec.com!cockburn                      a'
                                                                   Gha\idhlig!
  Views here are my own, and are not necessarily those of Digital
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: cockburn@edieng.enet.dec.com (Craig Cockburn)
Subject: Re: Info on the name COUHIG
Organization: Digital Equipment Co. Ltd., Reading, England
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 16:25:20 GMT


In article <1992Sep3.114833.7258@keps.kodak.com>, Susan Klimowicz writes...
>I had posted this here before but I don't think it went out.
> 
>I am trying to find out any information on the last name COUHIG.  I was told
>that it was celtic or gaelic for the number five but I have not been able to
>confirm this.  The name was also suppose to originate from Cork, Ireland.  
> 
>If anyone has any info would you please post it in this news group?
> 

The Scottish Gaelic for five is "co/ig" (old spelling) or "co\ig" (new
spelling). It's cu/ig in Irish Gaelic. There's also 
co/igeamh =  fifth
co/ignear =  five people
(both Scottish Gaelic)

hope this helps

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Craig Cockburn, Digital Equipment Co. Ltd, Reading, England.     Suas
  Internet: cockburn@edieng.enet.dec.com                           leis
  UUCP:..!decwrl!edieng.enet.dec.com!cockburn                      a'
                                                                   Gha\idhlig!
  Views here are my own, and are not necessarily those of Digital
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,rec.music.folk
From: int272y@lindblat.cc.monash.edu.au (Andrew Doig)
Subject: Andy Irvine, Dougie Maclean
Organization: Monash University
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 02:18:40 GMT

Are these two seen (heard) much around the uk?

What are the good venues for such stuff?


Andrew Doig      int272y@lindblat.cc.monash.edu.au
From: oconnell@vms.macc.wisc.edu (Kevin Patrick O'Connell)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Civics test for Irish citizenship??  Is there one?
Date: 26 Aug 92 20:54:57 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin Academic Computing Center

Is there some basic body of knowledge that newly naturalized Irish 
citizens need to master, as is required of immigrants to the US??  I 
suspect that persons who claim citizenship by descent are considered 
citizens by birth, and have as much right as any born citizen to be 
ignorant of how their country works (as is certainly the case here in 
the US!!), but how does Ireland treat immigrants in this matter?  If 
some corpus of material must be mastered, is it possible to obtain a 
syllabus?  (What I'm really asking here is, What info does Ireland 
consider it essential for responsible, active citizens to possess, if 
any?)

Kevin

PS--There was a brief query about Irish forms of names in Ireland.  I 
read somewhere that the Irish form of Kevin is "Coemgen" (sp?).  Is 
this correct?  How is it pronounced?
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,)
Subject: Re: Celtic Cross
Organization: Clarkson University
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 14:24:06 GMT

From article <1992Sep3.091951.4430@dcs.qmw.ac.uk>, by mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach):
> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . and who
> seem quite happy to call themselves "Christian" without any
> qualifying label, 
> 
> Matthew Huntbach

Not quite true, they love to use the term "Born-again-christians" in an
attempt to make themselves appear to be even more christian that
"traditional" christians.

															GW
From: jmm@scarabz.Corp.Sun.COM (John Morrison)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Highland Games - THIS WEEKEND
Date: 2 Sep 1992 16:35:03 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems
Distribution: usa
Reply-To: jmm@scarabz.Corp.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: scarabz.corp.sun.com


This is to let everyone know that:

		The Annual Gathering of the Clans in Santa Rosa CA.

is this weekend.  Spet 5 & 6

     It is usually held at the County Fairgrounds just off Hoghway 101.



Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: spain@galvia.enet.dec.com ()
Subject: Troubles claim 3,000 victim in NI
Reply-To: spain@galvia.enet.dec.com ()
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 10:13:29 GMT

--

The troubles in Northern Ireland claimed their 3,000th victim last night
when a man was shot dead in a bus full of GAA players and supporters.  A
Gaelic team and supporters were sitting on a bus when it was boarded by armed
and masked gunman who shot the man and wounded 2 others.  The killing was
part of an internal IPLO feud.

Of the dead

33% catholic civilians
31% members of the security forces
21% protestant civilians
10% nationalist paramilitaries
3%  loyalist paramilitaries
2%  others


The killings were carried out by

57% nationalist paramilitaries
26% loyalist paramilitaries
12% members of the security forces
5%  others


These are chilling statistics.  The politicians are on holiday but the 
gunmen are still busy.

|---------------------------------------------------------------------------- |

          U.S.A. here we come

          God thinks he's Jackie Charlton

       Gary Spain, DEC, Galway, Ireland   - spain@galvia.enet.dec.com

|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
From: gln@cs.arizona.edu (Gary L. Newell)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: close
Date: 27 Aug 92 06:02:37 GMT
Organization: U of Arizona CS Dept, Tucson

In article <1992Aug26.221940.1@gallua.gallaudet.edu>, rlwilliams@gallua.gallaudet.edu writes:
> I saw an add for a series of three books by Robert Klee... a "green flag" 
> series... I wonder if anyone has read it and what he/she might think of 
> it...

 Could you post any info you find on this? I've been trying to find a source
for the Ireland series that was narrated by Klee on PBS (I assume it was a
BBC production originally) and also a copy of the book "Green Flag" - I have
not been able to find either....


				gln


Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: dfair@octel.com (Donald Fair)
Subject: Re: Celtic Cross
Organization: Octel Communications Inc., Milpitas Ca.
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 17:07:18 GMT

>
>Not to belabor the obvious too much, it can also be seen that
>christianity also use the pagan festivals. For example, Christ was not
>born at christmas but the church wanted to make use of the festival at
>the winter solstic, Lent is derived from a period called lenct (sp?)
>which was the period when food was running short and people had to
>reduce their diet by necessity, All Saints day (1st Nov.) is beside
>halloween, and the 1st of May (the fertility festival) became the day of
>Saint Joseph the worker, which then became the internationl labour day (except
>in the US), ETC ETC.
>
>															GW
>
	This may belong in net.religion or something, but isn't
	True that some believe that the trinity concept
	was added to appeal to the celtic peoples because
	they tended to believe in gods/goddesses in sets
	of three, and that the promotion of Mary in the
	church was added to appeal to the celts who always
	had a mother figure as one of their three. I know
	the christian trio does not include a female.


-- 
_____________________________________________
Donald H. Fair       Software Sanitation Eng.
dfair@octel.com     "They're all small when 
standard disclaimer  They're blue." papa smurf 
---------------------------------------------
From: newt@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Michael Steven Newton)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Celtic Cross
Date: 3 Sep 92 07:15:11 GMT
Organization: Glasgow University Computing Science Dept.

dfair@octel.com (Donald Fair) writes:

>>
>>
>	This may belong in net.religion or something, but isn't
>	True that some believe that the trinity concept
>	was added to appeal to the celtic peoples because
>	they tended to believe in gods/goddesses in sets
>	of three, and that the promotion of Mary in the
>	church was added to appeal to the celts who always
>	had a mother figure as one of their three. I know
>	the christian trio does not include a female.

A related excerpt from Peter Berresford Ellis:
	... the idea of the Holt Trinity, a remarkable concept, is not
	Judaic, nor does it occur in Greek myth.  Why, then, does it
	occur in Christianity?  The first significant work on the Holy
	Trinity was written by a Gaulish Celt, Hilary of Poitier, who
	wrote "De Trinitate" during his exile in Phrygia about 356-360
	AD.  Trinity, the significance of the number three, is an
	ancient Celtic philosophical symbol.  It is known that the
	druids taught by means of triads.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic