From: jaffray@math.uchicago.edu (Alan Jaffray)
Subject: Re: My turn to rant.
Keywords: life sucks. maybe?
Organization: Dept. of Mathematics, Univ. of Chicago
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 18:12:51 GMT

In article <1992Nov7.093155.21596@panix.com> rpowers@panix.com (Richard Powers) writes:
>Friends?
>		Friends are a fraud.  There is no way another human being
>		is going to be loyal to to you when it doesn't suit
>		his/her needs.  Love (romantic, platonic... any kind) is a
>		myth.  Humans are at their core are selfish.  Evolution
>		couldn't let it be otherwise.

Well, one can observe that some people don't act this way.  (Perhaps
you, for instance? You mentioned below that some people regard you as
"nice"...)  Why is this?  It *could* just be stupidity, or reflex, but
I don't think it is...

Most people, even if acting solely through selfishness, use some sort
of "enlightened" selfishness to choose their actions.  It rarely pays
to screw someone else over unless you can be very sure you'll never see
them again, and it's often rewarding in the long term to be loyal to
someone else even if doing so goes against short-term goals.  For 
instance, you probably say "hi" instead of "shut the fuck up" in 
response to a coworker's greeting, even if it IS a lousy morning and
the second response would yield some ephemeral pleasure...

The iterated nature of the game yields a convenient loophole.


>Romance?
>		Where?  The female human seems to be attracted only to the
>		type of man who is "dangerous".  This usually translates
>		into complete jerks who have no respect for women.  Nice
>		guys definitely finish last in this arena.  

Not *all* women can be classified this way... Though it might be the
"typical" attitude of women who are "out for romance", I don't know.
Maybe trying to meet women in other ways would improve chances of 
finding someone atypical, trying to be friends first and later something
more needs more patience but is more likely to find someone who isn't
just out for a thrill (i.e. looking for a dangerous man).

Coming from me, though, this is pure theory (of course).


>Family?
>
>		Family are just friends who pretend to be so by
>		circumstance instead of by choice.  They may not want to
>		be in any relationship with you at all, although they
>		probably will not say so, but feel obligated to.  They
>		will also undoubtably have some role they think you should
>		play out- imprinted by society - which they will feel
>		threatened if you fail to go along with.

Can't say much about this... I don't understand why maintaining relations
with relatives after childhood is necessary.  Maybe as a socially-enforced
network of "friends" as a safety net for bad times?  Sure doesn't work
too well, if that's the point...

But then, if you truly feel this way, it's always possible to just cut
them out of your life completely... The fact that not too many people
do this indicates that I'm probably missing something.


>Work
>		Satisfaction of a job well done.  Phah!  Very... very few
>		people are satisfied with their jobs.  Workaholics are
>		often just throwing themselves into their jobs to help
>		them forget how miserable they are.  One thing that
>		separates humans from other animals is the ability to
>		delude its self.  
>
>		Generally nothing more than economic slavery.

This is true...

However, the ability of humans to delude themselves can be a good
thing.  "Make a game out of it."  "Think of a different way to do
it each time."  Stupid bloody grade-school mantras, but it's sometimes
possible... *Use* that self-delusion, instead of allowing imagination
to delude you into feeling worse than conditions merit.  I don't think
it's hiding from the truth in order to feel better, since there is no
absolute truth about how you should feel under certain conditions.
It's up to you...

Another thing to consider is that most jobs, in this nation and this
time period, are 40 hours (or so) per week.  There are 168 hours in
a week.  This is significant...


>School
>		Usually seen as a means to acquire a job.  Also a way for
>		society to imprint its messed up standards, bigotry,
>		hatred, and other senseless rules of conduct upon the
>		young.  The best thing about it is what it isn't. Namely: work. 
>		But you can't stay in school forever.  (Although some make a
>		good approximation.)  ;-)

If you refer to grade school, I agree.

But if you're referring to an adult in university, I disagree, since 
you don't have to allow yourself to be imprinted.  There is self-
determination going on.  

It's also a means to acquire knowledge, to become more educated, and
can be very good in that way... Though it can be difficult to perceive
as something you *want* to do while perceiving it as something you *have*
to do simultaneously.  I now have this strange impulse to take general
education classes here, when I don't have time to do so, after having
droned through GE requirements as an undergrad...

It's also a means to meet people.  See "Friends" and (hah!) "Romance"
above.


>Recreation time.  (Not-work, not-school)
>
>		Hmmm.  Hang out with your "friends"?  Go to obligatory
>		"family" gatherings?  Seek out "romance"?  Go to "school"?
> 		Or just waste time.

In my view, it's only wasted time if you don't enjoy it.

Which leads to the question... do you have ways of spending time which
you enjoy?  Name three.  Write them down somewhere, keep a list, 
whatever...

Feeding squirrels, listening to Bob Marley, and reading fiction by
Larry Niven are the first three that come to mind for me right now,
but specifics don't matter, just that they exist.  Silly to say that
squirrels are one reason why I should keep living, but it's true.

If you're in the middle of some "recreation time" and aren't enjoying it,
just droning instead, *change it*!  Do something new, go somewhere new,
read or listen to something else, at random if necessary.  It may not
work out, but it has a better chance than something you *know* you aren't
enjoying...



>Learning  (Maybe should have been under "school"- but maybe not).
>
>		Always learning new things in life?  Maybe.  Is most of it
>		challenging?  No.  Is most of it tedious?  Yes.  
>		Maybe in the end you learn it wasn't worth it.  And when
>		you learn it IS the end?  What does it all amount to
>		when you're gone?  Not a whole hell of a lot I'm guessing.

Depends on how you define learning... in my view, when you think about
something you've never thought about, or think about it in a way you've
never seen before, you've learned something.  It doesn't have to be
either academic or cosmic, and can relate to something you enjoy.

For instance, if I read a Niven story I've never seen before, I'm quite
possibly going to learn something, something which might help me 
appreciate and understand other science fiction more.  Any new idea.

Trying to draw a final, total conclusion from all life's learning is
meaningless, futile, and depressing IMHO.  At least it doesn't do
anything for me.

 
>Material possessions.
>
>		The whole _idea_ of property is an illusion.  Even within
>		the context of that illusion, possessions aren't as
>		tangible as we sometimes like to think.  Possessing things
>		can become addicting.  The more you have, the more you
>		want.  Thus possessions can never satisfy you.  You will
>		never have "enough".

This is true.  But never being satisfied by one's possessions doesn't
imply that one can't enjoy them.  

For a specific (though petty) example... One of the ways I enjoy wasting
time is by listening to a group called The Orb.  I've bought all the CDs
I could find by them, but it's not enough, I still wish that I could find
that next import single, or that they would put out another album soon...
I am not satisfied by my Orb collection.  That doesn't mean, though, 
that I can't enjoy listening to them, that they can't help make me happy.


>God/religion.
>
>		If God is perceived as an omnipotent creator of the
>		universe, then the universe is nothing more than a game
>		that God has created.  I think this game lacks playability 
>		(ie: IT SUCKS!), is slow moving, and cannot be won.

It lacks playability and is slow moving?  True...

It cannot be won; neither can it be lost.

However, if you find this model (God's game) of the universe depressing
(I do), you're free to choose another.  God's fishtank?  Multiple Gods?
Or (my preference) no God at all?


>So.  Why do I continue through my mothers death, my best friends mother
>death, and loneliness to occupy my time?  Not to mention 7+ years of
>depression.  The memory of my father standing in a window threatening my
>mother he would kill himself (in front of me and my brother as kids).  My
>mother having told me my father tried to rape her.  Two non-fatal suicidal
>"gestures" in those seven(?) years of depression.  Being unable to
>accomplish 90%+ of things I want/decide to do.  Prospects for the future
>about as bright as (1)eventually becoming homeless because I can't manage
>to keep a job (2)ending up in a psychiatric ward (at a STATE hospital) (3)
>dead.  Either from suicide or as a result of (1) or (2).  My "friends"
>basically abandoning me since the latest suicide attempt.  My family a
>complete joke.  Never having had a date in 23 years.  Getting close enough
>to it to know what I'm missing.  Why aren't I getting out the razor
>blades?  I don't know.  Maybe because I don't entirely believe some of the
>things in the top of the message?  Maybe.  I really don't know.

I hate to try to analyze this, which can't possibly express all of what
you're feeling, but...

What you're talking about are two things, a) the past (which is over, 
though it may not feel like it), and b) hopes for things which could
improve your life, but which you aren't attaining now and can't see
happening in the foreseeable (key word, that) future.  Even if you
don't think your life now is worth living, (a) is not going to get
any worse, and (b) is a reason to keep living, actually... i.e. if
you've gotten close enough to having a date that you think you'd 
enjoy it, it's possible that sometime it could happen, and that's a
reason to continue on... the game may not be playable, but you can
try to change whatever you can...

Look at Khare, for instance...

Admittedly this is all a matter of perspective, and it's a hell of a
lot easier to see things this way when you're feeling relatively good.
If you ever do, write it down...

-- Alan
Newsgroups: alt.suicide.holiday