From: thiyagarajan@mims.enet.dec.com (RT)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.tamil
Subject: Re: A CHALLENGE TO THE OPPONENTS OF CASTE BASED RESERVATIONS
Date: 2 Sep 92 14:39:55 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


In article <1992Aug31.221855.26000@coe.montana.edu>, prem@cs.montana.edu (M.P.Premkumar) writes...
> 

Please read my previous reply

> 
>VaNakkam,
> 
>Here is a summary of my arguments regarding caste based reservations. This 
>includes my articles in ACT and SCT[posted earlier] and my e-mail correspondence
>with some of the nettors[with many deletions which were due to their deviant
>nature]. Read them and my footnote before you decide to flame me.
> 
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>The topic of reservation is an issue which can never be solved to the satisfacti
>-on of everyone. Nevertheless let me voice my opinion about the reservations 
>based on my experiences over the years.
> 
>Time and again the issue of reservation has stirred passions among the people
>and no wonder the politicians are using this as a weapon. If educated people
>themselves "react" rather than "think" I wonder how the illiterate masses will
>behave in such issues.
> 
>For appreciating reservations one needs to study the past clearly. In the past  
>education was not as important for financial success as it is now. Those were 
>the days when very few went to school and out of them a few pursued professional
>degrees. But when times changed and education was percieved as a path to financi
>-al goals more and more people wanted to educate their sons and daughters. But 
>the brahmins who had the early lead in education knew the potential and began 
>educating their children aggressively. By "aggressive" I mean the zeal with 
>which they educated their children.
> 
>Given the backdrop of our caste based society, brahmins who were ahead in the
>field of education soon progressed very fast. And the other caste people who
>[eventhough some of them were reasonably rich] had not pursued education earlier
>were at a disadvantage. The brahmins who got educated and landed up in good jobs
>saw to that more and more people from their caste got educated and absorbed in
>the work force[which was becoming mostly brahmin]. Given the human nature
>and our caste based society where people "lived" separately this caste bias 
>is quite understandable. And I don't think any other caste people would have
>behaved any differently in the same situation.
> 
>At this point I would like to make myself more clearer. When backward caste 
>people talk about centuries of injustice done to them, I can't agree with them.
>Because if we are talking about 100 or 200 years ago then there was no real 
>emphasis on education. And I mean professional education and not literature.
>There was no need to have a degree in Accounting/Law/Medicine/Engg./Commerce
>etc. to progress in the society. If a weaver made good clothes and had the basic
>intelligence to sell them profitably then that was it. No need for a degree in
>Textile technology to weave and a degree in Business to sell. Same was the case
>with other professions as well. So during those times it was not necessary to
>study to prosper. And so I would say the "injustice" can be traced to recent
>times after the industrial revolution. Also I would say the brahmins just seized
>the oppurtunity and got financial prosperity. It was not as how the politicians
>portray them as being rich and powerful for centuries.

Agreed upto this point.

> 
>But in the era of industrialisation and commercialisation one needed to be 
>properly educated for financial and hence societal success. And the caste based
>reservations were brought to even out the field. And I am sure this was a better
>idea than economic criteria because, the aim of educating/encouraging education
>all caste people is best served this way. Because the reservations were not to
>eradicate poverty but to break the monopoly of a section of people on education
>and hence the work force. Also it would have been mighty difficult and it still
>is, to enforce economic criteria for reservations. If we go by the income level
>then it would mean the poorest gets the most number of seats and so on. And it
>would not have solved the problem of caste based imbalance in education. Also
>easily powerful people could easily prove they are "poor" since there is no fool
>proof way of verification of income in India. I would also like to point out to
>the people screaming for economic criteria that they would not qualify for seats
>in colleges if admission is based on family income. Because most of these people
>are from the middle class and given the population figures of the people below
>them I don't think they would be in any better position than they are right now.

While I agree that it is very difficult to check income in India I still have
the opinion that there sould be some cap on income level along with another
criteria (like if the family has used reservation for one generation they
should not use it in the next generation)

> 
>The most apalling thing in the whole reservation issue is the hypocrisy of the
>backward caste people when it comes to reservation for the SC/ST. Because these
>people who were in the very bottom of the society[the real "centuries" of opress
>-ed people] are the ones who need reservations more than any body else. Yet the
>backward caste people time and again critisize the reservations for SC/ST's. And
>the reaction of FCs towards the SC/ST's is no different. These people[both
>BC and FC] can never digest the fact that SC/ST's can get into a particular
>college with considerably lesser marks. And they conveniently forget how these
>people were and still are oppressed in the society. 
> 

I think SC/ST reservation should continue.

>One common tactics of the upper caste people is to point out one or two SC/STs
>who are rich and argue how their reservation is unjust. But to my knowledge and
>my experience in college I found most of the SC/STs are poor and still education
>-ally backward. Most of them come from families where there are no educated
>people. This particular scenario is true for many BCs also. Most of them come
>from illiterate background and surely would not have made it to good colleges if
>not for the reservations. And once again I would like to stress the fact that
>economic well being is not a factor like most people argue. Because there are 
>rich and poor in all castes[in case of SC/STs most of them are poor] and the 
>economic criteria would not have achieved what the caste based reservations 
>achieved.Only because of caste based reservations we now have a balanced society
>Other wise brahmins would be studying science and technology, chettiars would be
>lending money and kaikolars would be weaving and so on. One other argument is
>that the general standard of education has gone down because of reservations.
>On the contrary the gap between the classes[FCs and BCs, BCs and SC/STs] has 
>narrowed considerably over the years[ref: cut off marks for admission].
> 
>Well, the reservations have achieved to an extent the integration of society

I do think it is dis-integrating society on caste-basis.


>and personally I would want them to continue for ten more years. Only then our

I do not think that the politicians have the guts to specify any time-frames

>society will be balanced. But then one may ask if reservations are not aimed at
>eradicating poverty[as I have all along argued] then what about the poor ? what 
>needs to be done ? The government has to do more than just talk talk talk about
>eradicating poverty. The poor have remained poor if not poorer all these years
>mainly because everything in our country is corrupt. The probability of a man/
>woman achieving something without the influence of money is very low. Also our
>growing population is the main culprit in the case of poverty. If population
>grows this fast how the hell will the government be able to look after the 
>people ? Our villages need more attention. The perception of village being
>backward and city being forward should go.And the government has to do something
>to stop the flow of people from villages to cities. And it should also do all it
>can to persuade more and more educated people to serve in the villages. And 
>primary education should be made available to every body.
> 

Agreed.

>More importantly WE the people have to overcome our selfish outlooks and come 
>out to help our nation overcome poverty.The people who ardently cry for economic
>criteria for reservations will be the the first to runaway from working for the
>poor. In summary I would say that people need to think without bias before 

I think it is a generalization. I have seen many rich people doing sincere
charity works for poor. So I do not buy this argument.

>fighting on something. As a tamil saying goes:"Manja kaamalai noi kondavanukku
>paakkirathellam manjaLaa theriyumaam". So if we still remain in a small world
>thinking selfishly and sterio-typing people then nothing will go right. And it
>is a pity we don't have unselfish, broad minded politicians anymore in TN and
>for that matter in the whole of India. 

Yes it is a sad truth.

> 
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>In article <l8tl3tINN14m@bathtub.cs.utexas.edu> raman@cs.utexas.edu (Raman Rajagopalan) writes:
>>
>>I am quite concerned about the nature of the present day reservation
>>system for admission to colleges in Tamil Nadu, and in particular, am
>>concerned about the quality of the graduates.  I fear that if the present
>>system continues, with more regard for one's class than one's academic
>>merit, then the quality of professionals such as doctors and engineers
>>will drop dramitically over the next ten or twenty years as the 
>>professionals who qualified through merit retire and those who gained
>>degress through bribery or through quotas become the majority of employed
>>prefessionals.
> 
>I disagree with this observation. One instance I can show you regarding this is
>"The cut-off marks for the backward classes has been increasing and in the
>recent years the open competition cut-off and BC cut-off is separated by two
>marks or so. The trend is the same with the scheduled caste also."

So you agree that BCs can now compete against FCs.
If the cut-off marks are narrowing why any reservation at-all for BC?

> 

>So I conclude that the "academic gap" between the FC, BC and SC/ST is decreasing
>and the standard of the people entering the professional collleges is in no way

I disagree to this. The education standard of TN is going down according to
many studies (eg no of IAS candidates from TN)


>going down. All we have is more and more BCs and SC/STs giving more competition
>The very fact how the cut-off marks converge proves that reservations have had
>a positive effect on the BCs and SC/STs. While it is true that some qualified 
>people from FC may be at a disadvantage but overall the standard is not going 
>down.
> 

So what do you suggest the qualified FC students who did not get seats because
of reservation? 

> 
>						It is true that "always SOME 
>academically qualified persons are not able to pursue higher degress" but it
>is not "more academically qualified persons". It is possible with the 
>reservations policy that one Mr. X with more marks from FC may fail to get a 
>seat in a particular college whereas Mr. Y with lesser marks may do so. But 
>this is not proof that qualified people do not get seats. I will try to explain:
>BC people do not get seats just becuase they are BC. They get seats becuase they
>have good marks. But the competition itself is not open to all and they compete
>against BCs. This system may be critisized if BCs with far lower marks get seats
>while FCs don't. But as I have pointed out earlier the gap is not much and the 
>gap may soon be gone. 

I have seen cases where students get seat just because of their caste.

> 
>>Further, I conjecture that the marks required
>>  of the backward classes for admission to colleges and jobs later on
>>  are low enough (40%?) to extinguish any motivation to work hard and really
>>  learn (i.e., why work when the govt. promises you a free ride?).
> 
>Yeah conjecture right. But wrong. Anything less than 90% and the chance that a
>BC will get a seat in a reputed college is very remote.So your other observation
>that it will extinguish motivation is not true.
> 
>>Hypothesis and followup question:
>>
>>  It is my belief, that the present quota systems are counterproductive
>>  for the prosperity of the state.  While small percentages, or special
>>  financial support for backward groups (as in the US), may be acceptable,
>>  the percentages in TN seem to be high enough to weed out a significant
>>  number of highly motivated and academically qualified individuals in
>>  favor of less qualified and less motivated individuals.
> 
>In the light of my observations I conclude the reservations are NOT counter
>productive and highly motivated and academically qualified individuals are NOT
>favoured over less qualified and less motivated individuals. But I think the
>percentages need to be reviewed and corrected.

I think reservation on any basis is counter-productive and the percentage of
reserved seats in TN is very high.

> 
>>
>>  In the worst case, the result will be dramatic reduction in the quality
>>  of professional services as the merit-based professionals of the previous 
>>  generation retire and as the quota and bribe based professionals become
>>  the majority.  This applies both to academicians as well as professionals
>>  in the field (doctors, engineers, etc.).
> 
>It has not happened and it will not happen. But I am opposed to "buying" seats
>by rich people and powerful people "securing" seats with malpactice.
> 
>>
>>  This is a scary thought.  Thinking strictly about academic merit, I would
>>  be quite wary if a doctor attending to me in a hospital in Madras 
>>  belonged to the "backward" group... It would be quite difficult to 
>>  distinguish those who "earned" their degree from those who got a 
>>  "free ride", especially if I did not know anything about medicine.
> 
>The same thing applies to a FC doctor with whom you will be concerned because
>you wouldn't know if he/she deservedly earned his/her degree or if he/she
>bought it or got it by influence.[This is just an instance to show that it is
>quite possible for a FC to get a degree through power and money].
> 
>>  I invite comments, facts, and figures to either support my hypothesis,
>>  or to calm my fears.
> 
>You have got them now. So calm your fears but don't suppress your doubts.
> 
>>
>>  Also, for those who support the quota systems:  how would you feel
>>  about being operated on by a "quota" doctor (when you do not have access
>>  to the doctor's marks sheet), or about having the wiring in your house
>>  being designed by an "quota" engineer?  
> 
>All I would worry about is the end result: IS HE/SHE CAPABLE OF DOING IT ?
>As everybody knows all who get good marks are not good when it comes to practice
Then you have to agree that an FC students who is having very low marks can be
'capable' of becoming a doctor.

> 
>>Before I get flames in return,
>>  I will add that it is my hypothesis that only a small minority of those
>>  who get in via the quota systems will be down-trodden, hard-working,
>>  want-to-come-up-in-life persons.  I believe a majority of the students
>>  will be in for the free ride.  The key word is hard-working.
> 
>Nope. Not true. 
> 
>>- raman rajagopalan
> 
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>In article <l908k1INNcvu@aludra.usc.edu> rammohan@aludra.usc.edu (Karthikeyan Rammohan) writes:
> 
>>Please remember that i have lived 17 difficult years
>>in Madras ruled by people who use the names of Anna, periyar to
>>justify there actions, and there are 2 million fools who beleive them
>>and continue to quote them forever.No wonder TN has people who commit
>>suicides on silly incidents.
> 
>Did you know about the highly civilised American people who still believe that
>Elvis lives ? And do you know how many Americans follow religious imposters
>who give magnificient speeches with emotion(I finally saw some people in USA 
>who could act as well as our politicians). 

I think the % of people doing this in USA is insignificant.

> 
>TAMBRAS(Tamilnadu Brahmin Assn.) asks people to vote for ADMK in every election.
>What do you think about that ? And brahmins vote for ADMK regardless of the 
>candidate. Why is this happening ? Does MGR being a brahmin or Jayalaitha being
>a brahmin play any part in the logic ? If not then what is the logic in voting
>for ADMK which is as good or as bad as DMK.

First MGR was not a brahmin. Second TAMBRAS has every right to support any
party (like vanniar sangam supporting PMK). While I agree that ADMK and DMK
both are bad, only in DMK you can see brahmin-bashing (if you want you can see
speaches by MK or any DMKians in this year's Muthamizh vizha from any magazine)
That is why TAMBRAS is supporting ADMK.

> 
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>In article <1992Aug18.193607.4673@morgan.ucs.mun.ca> raghu@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Raghu B) writes:
>>In <Bt6x0K.Cpw@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca> crathina@ritchie.uwaterloo.ca (C Rathinavelu) writes:
>>
>>>                 If the admission is based on merit system then I am pretty 
>>>sure that only and only city people (Madras,Coimbatore,Trichy,Madurai etc. 
>>>they have more/most/enough facilities in education industry) will enjoy this
>>>partial system. One should also give some oppotunity to village and labour
>>>class people to come up in their life. 
>>
>>  what do you mean by that the city people have more facilities. We are
>>all reading the same book and taking the same test. i can understand
>>that the teaching facilites may not be good in schools in villages when
>	  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>compared to schools in cities. 
> 
>There you go. You yourself pointed it out.
> 
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>In soc.culture.tamil article <1992Aug20.180743.25801@coe.montana.edu> you wrote:
>> In article <1992Aug18.130729.15534@utagraph.uta.edu> muthu@mecad.uta.edu (S.N.
>Muthukrishnan) writes:
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Why reprimand a generation? Is it not a facist policy? Educated but tendencies of
>>barabarism still remain, eh! Is eye for an eye the way to go? Can we not correct the 
>>mishappenings? Why should the good be pushed down to bring up the weak? There are two 
>>ways to rise up the ladder. One is to climb up. The other is to pull the other fellow 
>>down. Which will you recommend? What is happening in TN?
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>One person has had a head start and he is far ahead. The other is now
>at a disadvantage. So the first person is asked to wait till the other person

Will this apply to any fields? or only for education? What about caste based
promotion? Why not in national games? For example in a running race ask FC
runner to start after 5 minutes after all other BC/SC/ST runners started?
This argument in this century is simply meaningless.


>catches up with him. This is how I view the reservations. And I think still
>the second person has not caught up with the first person. The moment he catches
>up I think both should compete without any help.
> 
>>>Sorry pal you are wrong. There are more and more socially backward people in TN
>>> who believe in themselves than there were before.
> 
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Then why still the reservation with such huge percentages?I know lots of poor FC
>>families who do not have any body who is a graduate in their family. Why should'nt 
>>they be given the oppurtunity.
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>Because still there are millions who need reservations. I also know lot of BC
>families who do not have anybody who is a graduate and are poor. So ?
>What we need is a broad outlook of how much relatively the communities need or
>donot need reservations and such isolated useless arguments.
> 
>>>You are mixing politics with reservation. Mal administration is not an issue in
>>>this ongoing discussion. And by the way will any other party(like the Congress)
>>>do away with the reservations ? I can bet my fortune they won't.
> 
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>That is precisely what I am saying. People have to learn not to elect these so 
>>called 'reforminsts'. Why are Tamilians so stupid to elect actors and actress?
>>>I know i am mixing politics. But that is the fatc. Education system is messed 
>>up due to politics.
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>Why are Tamilians so stupid to elect actors and actresses ? - Because others
>with the qualifications shy out of politics. Simply put, they lack the guts to
>enter politics and oppose such actors and actresses. And I agree with you that
>education is messed up due to politics. 
> 

This is true

>>>2) I don't say reservation should not have been made as the alternative to get
>>>rid of the ills of the past, but is'nt there a way to do it.
> 
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Provide incentives to study. Give them substantial scholarship. Give them oppurtunities
>>to start industries. Give them special training if needed. Tell you what I know well 
>>educated rich people use reservation just because their son/daughter is dumb enough 
>>not to study. You see such people still get away with it.
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 

I agree to the above

>Nice ideas. But think about the magnitude of the problem. We are talking about
>over 80% of the population. And yes I agree that rich and powerful people use
>reservation just because their son/daughter is dumb enough not to study. But
>reservations or no reservations we can't stop them.
> 
>>> 2. 65% in what ? (refer to above) And are you kidding ? BC with 65% entering
>>> Govt. colleges ? And why do you club BCs with SCs knowing pretty well the
>>> cuttoffs and reservation percentages are different ?
>>> 
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>When did you graduate with your bachelor's? May be you were not aware of times it
>>used to happen. But I am darn sure that there are rich folks who get into profess.
>>colleges with the aid of money. Do you give a minute to think about the poor FC guy?
>>Why are people so antagonistic to even discussing the difficulties of the FC?
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>I graduated last year. Yes I may not be aware of times it used to happen. And
>yes I am also darn sure that rich folks get into professional collges with the
>aid of money. So ?
> 
>And yes I think about FC students' plight. I realised their problems fully

I am glad that you see other side of the story

>when I passed high school and found many of my friends unable to get into
>good colleges. I come from Mylapore which is a predominantly brahmin area and
>so most of my friends were brahmins. When I got admission into a good college
>and they failed to do so, I felt so bad. It was then I began wondering why the

What happened to your friends?

>hell we had this reservation business. I began asking myself whether I was right
>in using the reservation system. My parents would say that was right because I
>was the first in my family to get a college education. Maybe they are right. But

Since you used reservation will you allow your children to exploit it?

>I could have got a seat in a different college in the same department or a seat
>in the same college in a different department with my marks. So why did I use
>the reservation at all ? Till this date I have mixed feelings about this.
> 
>After I joined college this question of reservations always came up to my mind.
>Only then I slowly realised the importance of reservations. Scores of BC and
>SC/ST students(sons and daughters of farmers,road cleaners, coolies, weavers
>etc.) would never have made it to my college if not for the reservations. I 

I hope that everyone knows povery does not have any discriminations. You can
see the same kind of poor people among FCs also


>found them to be fully eligible for reservation unlike my case. Also I began to
>look beyond the limits of Madras, Madurai, Coimbatore and other cities. People 
>came from obscure villages and towns. They all fully deserve this reservations.

You can see FCs also in villages and towns

>I also came across rich BCs and very few rich SC/STs. But I came across rich
>FCs also. And I slowly realised that rich/poor argument doesn't hold good when
>talking about reservations. Time and again some rich and powerful BC/SC/ST
>people use reservations. But that doesn't convince me that the vast majority of
>eligible BC/SC/STs should suffer.

> 
>But I think the OC percentage should be increased based on how the OC field 

>looks like(% of FCs/BCs/SCs/STs). And based on current trends I think the OC
>field should be gradually increased as the academic gap changes. The obstacles
>to that are selfish people in the BC/SC/ST castes who would like to use the
>reservations again and again and our beloved politicians who wouldn't want to
>anger such people.
> 

I am glad to note this 

> 
>>> 3. Rich/Poor & FC/BC mmmm. Isn't that an isolated instance ? 
> 
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>NO. It is not. I know that atleast 60% of the students in my class were stinkingly
>>rich. Most of them came thro' reservation. 
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>In my class it was the opposite. 
> 
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Why don't those who enjoyed and are well off today give it up? Compete fairly.
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>I agree with you in this regard.
> 
>> >Are they afraid? Do they think they are incapable of qualifying  
>> >without reservation? 
>> 
>> No.
> 
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Unsubstantiated claim.
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>I'll tell you what, if they use reservations it is because they are selfish
>not because they are incapable of qualifying.And it would take a bold politician
>to come and say,"Ok guys. You have got your due. Why don't you allow others ?"
> 
>>>today backing off from their duty. Shedding their responsibilities they are all  
>>>out to ensure that the caste based reservation will exist for generations to 
>>>come.
> 
>>Gross generalisation. But I accept many just want the reservations to continue
>> because of selfish interests. It is because of such selfish irrational people
>> that genuine arguments are also thrown to the dust bin by ati-reservation 
>> people.
> 
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>You bet! Show me one who truthfully acknowledges the ills of reservation. I am yet to
>meet one.
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>You have one such person in me. I acknowledge that reservations are not perfect
>and do provide loop holes for people to manipulate.
> 
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>So, that was the summary nettors. All along I had expressed my views and in 
>return very few people who opposed reservations challenged my views. And the 
>few who responded argued one or two points in my views neglecting others(they
>never agreed or disagreed) would then stop discussing when I replied them. So
>I concluded that my views are accepted.
> 
>Put in a nutshell here are my points:
> 
>1. The introduction of caste based reservations are justified.
>2. Their continuance is also justified.
>3. The percentages need to be reviewed and OC(Open Competition) needs to be 
>   widened.
> 
>So here is the challenge guys. Read my views fully and if you accept them fine,
>it is upto you to decide what to do. If you disagree then please RESPOND in the
>net(I am tired of this e-mail business) explaining where you agree and where you
>disagree and why.
> 
> 
>Sincerely yours,
>M.P.Premkumar
> 


RT
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