From: pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.croatia,soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Calling a spade a spade; labelse
Date: 3 Jan 93 07:52:10 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.croatia
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

blazic@ecf.toronto.edu (BLAZIC Joseph R) writes:

>In article <Jan.2.02.51.54.1993.20821@andromeda.rutgers.edu> pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane) writes:

Ana (before):
|Joe, first, I don't read/watch the official Serbian media AT ALL -
|except VREME which you can hardly count into that category.
|Second, you cannot deny that there had been atrocities beyond
|the scope of "pure" defense commited on Serbian population (civilians)
|on the part of Croatian and B-H official armies and para-military
|troups, as well as irregular bands. These have been reported

Joe:
>You stated that there were atrocities being committed against Serbs *before*
>the wars started (implying a rationale for the war starting).  There were
>no significant (real) cases of this in Croatia or B-H *before* the wars
>started.

Ana (now):
Well, I know of some (and NOT from official or any SERBIAN sources, but by
personal communication with my friends in Croatia, who btw are not even
Serbs, but Croatians, if that means anything any more).
[if you are interested, I'll send you personally the recounts of the stories.]

Joe:
>It is of interest to note this: in the early stages of the wars the atrocity
>reports were very one sided (i.e. almost exclusively Serbs against everyone
>else).  As the wars dragged on, revenge apparently kicked in and "other side"
>began committing a substantial number of bad deeds as well.  Karadzic,
>Milosevic are laughing of course because this was their goal (to divide
>the people), knowing how hard it is to stop such vicious cycles when they
>get started.  And what about Tudjman and Izetbegovic?  It is not in their
>interest to divide their citizens, unless they don't really want to control
>all of their internationally recognized territory.

Exactly! That was my point all this time. Sure it is not in their
"interest", or maybe it IS in their "interest". What is their
true interest?

Ana (before):
|Forth, there is a big step between "everyone is to blame" and
|"everyone is thus almost equally responsible". YES, EVERYONE
|WITHIN THE LEADERSHIPS OF DIFFERENT COUNTRIES OF FORMER YUGOSLAVIA
|IS TO BLAME. How much? What for? Well each one individual and
|official structure, for what they have exactly done. Not more,
|and not less. That would be only just, wouldn't it?

Joe:
>Of course.

Joe (before):
>>>It is absurd that you blame Croatia and Slovenia for what is happening
>>>in Kosovo.  Do you blame the Western World (countries, intn'l organizations)
>>>for criticizing the treatment of Albanians by Serbian authorities there (i.e.
>>>'for demonization of all Serbs') ?

Ana (before):
|Again:
|First, I am not blaming CROATIA AND SLOVENIA, but Croatian and Slovenian
|leadership.

Joe:
>OK (usually taken to be one and the same).

Ana (before):
|Second, I am not even "blaming" but just laying out the irrefutable facts.
|(Take the official press releases from: Serbia, Croatia, Slovenia and
|Kosovo for years 1980-1987 and after 1987, and tell me whether you can
|or cannot conclude that
|"Croatian and Slovenian *leaders* had used the Kosovo conflict to,
| on one hand, support the most extreme secessionist Albanian leaders, 

Joe:
>Had they?  Perhaps someone with roots in Kosovo can better answer this one.
>I'm not sure about the time frame you are talking about.  At at time after
>1987 the president of Croatia was a Serb, no?

Ana (now):
Who was the Serb President of Croatia before 1987? (Honestly, no irony)

Ana (before):
|and 

|on the other hand, to prepare their own populations for hatred, satanization
|and demonization of all Serbs. (analyze the style of writing up the news).

Joe:
>Of all Serbs, or of "Milosevic's Serbs"?

Ana (now):
Well, before '87 Milosevic didn't really exist politically. 

Joe:
>My pet peeve with the use of words like "Serbs", "Croats", etc. is that
>it labels a whole nation/culture.  Is this always the intent, or these
>words used for brevity?  I.e. should every paper write "Serbs are doing
>this..." or "Croats in this particular region who support this leader,
>but only certain extremist Croats...".  Brevity has alot to do with it
>I think.  Because Serbs are systematically raping Muslim woman in B-H,
>does this mean my Serbian neighbour is responsible?  Brevity...universal
>demonisation has much to do with how a reader choses to interpret the
>one word labels.

Ana (now):
You are right. Brevity is maybe the INTENT of a writer, but the
result of the brevity is an indiscriminate category that lumps all
kinds of people, whether or not they have personally anything to do
with the matters discussed, whether they support or not the deeds
of the leaders, etc. This result of just "brevity" gets its horrible
form when innocent people are killed, raped, expelled from their
homes, just because they happen to share the short national name
with the ones who actually in body and in mind are to blame for
whatever (insert your favorite "blames"). Try an experiment. Reed
something posted on this net several times. Try hard to imagine
that it was written by somebody else (other nationality, too) on
the net. See how you "interpret" the text each time. Here is an
example: read "job oppenings in Serbia/Montenegro" by Wickerhauser.
Then read the same as if it was written by M. Pavlovic, by M. Stojanovic,
by API report, by me, or whatever. See what does it mean to you each time.

Ana (before):
|(here I'll also add, that the Serbian leadership equally used the said
|political events occuring in Kosovo prior to Milosevic and even more
|after he came to power, to equaly satanize and demonize Croatians and
|Slovenians and Albanians).

Joe:
>How did Milosevic use Kosovo against Slovenians and Croatians?

Ana (now):
By applying the same false mathematical logic: If they (Cro, Slo) support
Albanians, and they ARE our enemies (that's another issue now), then
they (Slo, Cro) must be our enemies. Plus, the "label" logic. If they
are against what I (We leadership) think is right, then they are
against ALL of us (Serbs), and on the other side, they (Slo, Cro
leadership) must be ALL of them (Slovenians Croatians).

Ana (before):
|The problem, Joe isn't that *I* can't call a spade a spade, but that
|*YOU* have a blind spot when it comes to Croatian leadership. One would
|think that, gee, these guys cannot make a mistake ever, reading only
|what you write. I don't see why do you have to defend them (Croatian
|leadership) when they certainly are no flowers.

Joe:
>Think hard - when have I explicitly supported Croatian leadership?

Ana (now):
Well, again, I never said you explicitly supported them, but you also
never explicitly disagreed with them.

Ana (before):
|I have said somewhere before that in social affairs, the mathematical
|logic doesn't apply: If one side (Serbian leadership and army) are
|evil criminals (which they are), it simply doesn't follow, that
|AUTOMATICALLY, the other side (Croatian leadership, B-H Leadership and
|respective military forces) MUST BE GOOD.

Joe:
>Nope, of course not.

Ana (before):
|Can't you see that this is a war between several mafia-like
|organizations, which have each taken power in their little
|neighborhoods, and are quarelling about bordering territory? All the
|while waving national flags, fooling a lot of honest people to support
|their side with money (What do you think this war costs in $$?), words,
|work, blood and lives. 

Joe:
>That is one theory.  You don't think that this war transcends the individual
>leaders?  Think about it from one perspective - what is more powerful:
>a Serbia with Vojvodina, Kosovo, 1/3 of Croatia, 2/3 of B-H...or just
>Serbia with Vojvodina and Kosovo?  It seems to me that economics (long
>term) have alot to do with this war, more than personalities.

Ana (now):
Sure, but one doesn't contradict another. Moreover, it often goes hand
in hand. I mean economy and criminal.

>Regards,

>Joe Blazic


Regards, 

Ana M. Shane
Xref: sparky soc.culture.croatia:181 soc.culture.yugoslavia:10201 soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:921 soc.culture.jewish:23578