From: anoosh@gorgan.mti.sgi.com (Anoosh Hosseini)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on Arabic aphabet news reader
Keywords: ARABIC PERSIAN GUI COMPUTER
Date: 8 Oct 92 18:27:10 GMT
Organization: Mips Technologies, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: gorgan.mti.sgi.com

In article <1992Oct7.213504.13787@prism.poly.edu>, medawar@prism.poly.edu (Bassem Medawar) writes:
|> 
|>>We had our own escape sequence method, but with new specs coming out, I
>>think we will go with Internet standards.
>
>Can you be more explicit, which standards, in this case, you are refering to?

To the RFC's mentioned below.  Our own idea was a simple thing, using printable
ASCII char.  

>>The English part will always be readable, and required for transport on
>>Internet.  Use of Persian/Arabic with be still in Latin characters, but 
>>that's for transmission only, they would be representing ISO 8859-6 
>>encoding or equivalent. Read below.
>
>Actually what I had in mind was a message in the form:
>
>- Internet header
>- Latinized Arabic form of the message automatically converted from the Arabic
>  text for those who don't have the capability to display Arabic
>- keyword to start arabic coded text
>- Arabic coded text
>
>That idea is not only to make the transport possible but to allow those who
>won't have the capability to display the Arabic text to be able to read the
>Latinized version of it.  Automatic translation from Arabic to Latin may not
>be easy because in Arabic Harakaat (accents) are often not represented.  This
>would correspond more or less to a Latinized text without vowels.  My name
>for example without Harakaat becomes "b\aasm" (assuming that \ is the escape
>character for doubling and here for example \aa is the Arabic Aleph.  This
>is much less readable than the way I am used to write my name "bassem".  If
>we make provisions for using Harakat and I use a kassra under the sin, then my 
>name becomes "b\aasim" which is still different from the way I am used to
>write it but more readable.  Note, that I am here talking about automatic
>translation.  This does not preclude others from using the standard to write
>Latinized Arabic (please no flames).
>

If you communicate based on standards, then you will be using 8859-6.
If you propose to send data via transliteration, your are
merely addressing a problem which will go away with time.  Such  
a scheme would require ease of conversion, translit->8859-6 and back
without loss of information.  For Persian we cannot do this, since  when
we type, we do not enter all the Harakaats. Thus you may be able to go
from tranliteration -> ISCII, but not back.  As a polite poster you
may enter both the transliteration, and actually Persian/Arabic such that 
all can read and see the visual form of the characters. (might even
help foreigners learn the language.) So I recommend sticking with
electronic information exchange methods rather than transliteration.
An another reason for 8859-6, ISCII is that when computing on data 
(such as sorting etc...) tranliterated information is hard to deal with. 
 
>
>Maybe at some point, you will make the demo model available to try it and
>for comments.  Unfortunately, the installed base of PC-NFS is very small.
>Not many will benefit from it.

One model is to use PC-NFS but it is not required.  We will put the
product out as soon as it is in shipping shape :-).

>
>>                                    Microsoft is working on Arabic
>>Windows, (to be released some time this year). With the aid of their
>>tools it will be easier to develop such applications.  
>
>That's great, except they're probably only going to market it in the Middle East
>and make it hard to get in the US.  I had to have someone buy the IBM arabic
>DOS extension from Saudia Arabia and send it to me because I couldn't buy it
>here.  That was some time ago and as soon as I upgraded from DOS 3.2, I couldn't
>use it anymore.
>

Dont worry I am sure we will be able to get it from MS. 

>As far as the ISO 8859-6 (Arabic 8-bit encoding set), is there any possibility 
>you can scan it?  I have on the other hand the ASMO-449 and a couple sets 
>derived from it.  (ASMO stands for Arab Standards and Metrology organization)
>

OK, I think its the same as ASMO-449.

>What is ISO 10646?  Some sort of encoding?  And I take it that RFC 822 defines
>7 bit email.

ISO 10646 is a 32 bit encoding scheme to represent all/most of the languages
of the world. Recently Unicode the 16 bit multilingual standard are was merged
with ISO 10646 to form one standard. Yes RFC 822 is for 7 bit email.

>
>
>- emacs with source for both DOS and Mac. 
>- hevga134, author Joseph Gil aka Yogi which is a "Hebrew font & utils for 
>  PC's without Hebrow ROM Char".  It is available from:
>  vmsa.technion.ac.il, directory: PUBLIC$:[000000.MSDOS.HEBPROG]
>- a similar program hebkb110 by Dov Grobgeld available from the same place.
>  It is built around the Turbo Editor's Toolbox.
>- Jove editor (I am not sure what it does)
>
>
>        - either way, we may have to uuencode/decode to overcome the 7-bit
>          Internet restriction.
>

This is where RFC 1341 comes in.

>   - editing:
>
[stuff deleted]
>
>   - encoding:
>
[stuff deleted]
>
>   - Communication (read and post):
>
[stuff deleted]
>Comments are welcome.  Please no flames.
>

I think you want to work too hard. Our stuff is for Windows, not for regular
DOS. When we started there was no talk of Persian/Arabic Windows from MS.  It 
is claimed that it will be out soon. For the Arabic speaking population, I 
recommend that you wait, (actually be the time you put in place everything else, 
they will come out) and just use their editor. (notepad/write).  The most basic 
model is that you have an bilingual arabic/english editor, assume it can ouput 
8859-6 or some format that is interchangeable with 8859-6, post process it so 
that it can be transported on the Internet (MIME), and then the reverse process.  
From there you could can come up with creative ways to make the process easier 
and more user friendly. On the Mac you can get the Arabic/Persian extensions
for free.  So if you choose mac, you are ready to go.

For us Persians, we will not have a MS Windows version for a while.
(though there is a Mac version), and so our work will continue. Also our work
does not support arabic at this point. So most important thing is to readup
on MIME, look at the issues etc... and have the encoding/transport mechanism
nailed down, then worry about presentation.  

>bassem
>

-anoosh


P.S. at some point you may want to continue with Email, though this technology 
enhances culture, at this phase it might be boring to the cultured. :-)