HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Blue Jays-Gillick
Date: 17 Dec 92 16:55:38 GMT
Organization: Department of Industrial Engineering

Thus spake niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent):
>
>Actually, while I agree with the sentiment, I think you chose a bad
>example.  I think the Mets are the perfect example of a team which a
>good manager *could* help win.

Really?  I think the Mets have too many holes.  Now the *Orioles*, on the
other hand, are just one real manager away from contention.


-- 
       David Tate        |"Out of the dugout endlessly swinging,
 dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu | Out of the manager's throat, the sound fundamentals,
 Prof. of Story Problems | Out of the six-month season..."            
 Member ORSA, TIMS, SABR | 	Walt "Lefty" Whitman
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: nlu@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu)
Subject: Re: Latest Jays News
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 23:49:06 GMT

In article <1992Dec11.155120.7470@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca> golchowy@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (Gerald Olchowy) writes:

>Wallach didn't complain throughout the season...he voiced his objections
>once and then pretty much kept his mouth shut about it...and Wallach's
>objections had more to do with the way Runnells handled it, rather than
>the move.

Well, the reason why he kept his mouth shut about it was because Alou moved
him back to 3B.  (Bad move, IMO.  But worse is playing Wallach *at all*.)

>What evidence do you have for a rapidly declining range...

Like, ever decreasing range factors?

>Well, it is not clear that the Expo's have a better offensive third
>baseman yet.  As for Baines, there is no DH in the National League...

*Anyone* is better than Wallach at 3B.  Even playing the anemic Sean Berry.

===============================================================================
GO CALIFORNIA ANGELS!
===============================================================================
Nelson Lu (claudius@leland.stanford.edu)
From: kcastro@us.oracle.com
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Bonds rejects Yankee offer..
Date: 17 Dec 92 21:47:01 GMT
Organization: Oracle Corporation, USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

In article <If_FRw600WB94Lx4gM@andrew.cmu.edu>, al1x+@andrew.cmu.edu (Amit Likhyani) writes:
> Do you still keep in contact with Bonds?  That must be cool to know a
> guy who is a major league star.  Your comments were pretty insightful. 
> Why did he take number 7 when he was promoted to Pittsburgh?  He changed
> to 24 later.
> 
Yes, we've stayed in touch.  As far as I know (and I definitely could be
wrong), 24 was taken when Barry came to Pittsburgh.  The 7 has no particular
significance.

Interestingly, he has never before worn 25.  I haven't talked to him, but I
think he's wearing it now as a PR thing, rather than because he wants to honor
his father.  It would have looked a little odd, after all the brouhaha about
wanting to honor his godfather, if he hadn't picked his dad's number when it
became clear that enough people (particularly the SF press) didn't want him to
wear 24.

BTW, Serra High School has been pretty much a hotbed of major league talent.
Gregg Jefferies and Scott Chiamparino (if you could call him talent) (or major
league!) also went there, as well as the top pick in last year's HS draft,
whose name escapes me at the moment.  There are also something like a billion
(or maybe just a dozen) ex-Serra players in the minors.

--KC

--KC
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: joel@math.toronto.edu (Joel Chan)
Subject: Acker (Was: Who are the best pitchers of our generation?)
Organization: Department of Mathematics, University of Toronto
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 92 19:51:37 GMT

In article <1992Dec20.001044.13964@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> nlu@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu) writes:

>Other possibilities that I see include:
>
>Jim Acker (just to see if you're reading)

Forgive me if I missed the post, but who won the 1992 Jim Acker Pitch-Alike
Contest?

Just wondering...

Joel
-- 
Joel Chan, Department of Mathematics	  	 joel@math.toronto.edu
Toronto Blue Jays: 1992 World Series Champions
"History: Those who ignore it are condemned to repeat it.  Math, too."
				    -From the comic strip "Betty"
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: behrens@cc.swarthmore.edu (Eric Behrens)
Subject: Re: What is $43.75m worth?
Organization: Swarthmore College
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 14:16:00 GMT

In article <1992Dec15.154024.1@uwovax.uwo.ca>, jpalmer@uwovax.uwo.ca (The
Econoclast) writes:
> 
> 	Last week I read that even though Barry Bonds is to receive
> $43.75m over six years, most of it comes in the later years of his
> contract. He is to receive:
> 
> 1992 (signing bonus)	2.5
> 1993			4.0
> 1994			4.75
> 1995			7.75
> 1996			8.0
> 1997			8.25
> 1998			8.5

I don't have the economics background that you do, John, but it seems to me
that this arrangement leaves the Giants with an additional aption of
getting two good cheap years out of Bonds and then trading him to another
team if the investment hasn't helped them much.  (Of course, by 1995, 8
million may look like an absolute steal, especially if he has another two
top-caliber years.)
Date: Friday, 11 Dec 1992 11:18:52 EST
From: <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: NUMBER 24

"i guess in this day and age the tradition of baseball doesn't mean much
anymore... and that is sad!" (or some such), said by some doug guy.

doug babe, if you were an awesome baseball player, and your team retired
your number, and your godson came along a generation later, wanting to
wear your number, would you be insulted? i think most people would be
fairly honored, and proud.

bob vesterman.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: spira@panix.com (Greg "Sarcasm Is A Way Of Life" Spira)
Subject: Re: Mattingly
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 23:18:14 GMT
Organization: Boo!  

In <1992Dec19.175158.4216@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> akamholz@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Andrew E Kamholz) writes:

>I hereby take back everything I have said about Mattingly. I started off just
>trying to say that he was a good defensive player and certain idiots started
>going crazy with RISP and power and whatnot. 

>All I was trying to do was write something positive, since all most of you
>people seem capable of doing is putting down people who, by the way, have a
>lot more talent than any of you.

Total nonsense.  All we are trying to do is properly evaluate players.
No one here - not a one - has put down Don Mattingly.  What has been said
is that he is not nearly as good as the media says he is, and lots of evidence
has been provided to back that up.  On the other hand, there are lots of
players that recieve constant praise here who are ignored or underrated
by the masses - guys like Frank Thomas, Mark McGwire, Edgar Martinez.

And by the way, I would suspect that many people on this net are far more
talented than many major league baseball players.

>Call me sentimental, but I will always believe that Mattingly is the best
>first-baseman.

You're entitled to believe anything you want, and I would die to defend that 
right, even if you insist on believing that Mattingly is the best first
baseman or the earth is flat.

 I REFUSE to answer any responses to this on this net. If you
>have a problem with what I say, send me mail and I'll tell you what I really
>think.

If you post something on the net that people disagree with, you're going
to get disagreed with.  If you're don't want to defend your opinion, you don't
have to.  That's your right.

Greg 
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: kenney@tribe.b17d.ingr.com (David Kenney)
Subject: Silly Arbitration Question
Reply-To: kenney@tribe.b17d.ingr.com
Organization: Intergraph Corporation, Huntsville, Alabama
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 20:58:52 GMT

Do both sides in a salary arbitration hearing know the other sides proposed
salary ahead of time?

What I'm wondering is if a player's salary submission was ever lower than
what his team submitted.  That would make for an interesting hearing.

I suppose there would have to be very poor communication ahead of time,
otherwise a compromise would be easily reached.  It is an interesting
possibility, however.

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Kenney                                       kenney@tribe.b17d.ingr.com
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 17:57:23 EST
From: Edward A Farber <EAF110@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: All-Time Phillies

What about Manny Trillo at second.  The defense he provided was exceptional.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Magadan with the Marlins?
From: Jeff Pierce <JPIERCE@MIAMIU.BITNET>
Date: Tuesday, 15 Dec 1992 01:33:06 EST
Organization: Miami University - Academic Computer Service

I guess I should have put a :) after that comment about Detroit
needing some speed in their line-up.  I was hoping that Detroit's
management might be dumb enough to believe the media on this one and
take Coleman off the Mets' hands in time for them to free up some
money to resign Magadan.  Oh well.

                                         Jeff
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Belcher
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 02:52:59 GMT

In article <BzDpEM.Lpx@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> scooby@prelude.cc.purdue.edu (Charles Mcwilliams) writes:
>> And who do they have behind the 450 innings they'll get from Rijo and
>> Smiley?  Smoltz, Avery and Smith are all better than the Reds #3 
>pitcher.
>
>Aren't you forgetting a guy named Belcher?   Sure he had an off year, but
>I'm sure he'll return to his old form with the improved run support he'll  
>be getting :)  

Everyone will improve this year, but everyone's going to get their
four or five starts against the Marlins and Rockies.  Relative to
the Braves?  I'd take Smoltz.  Or Avery.  Smith is a tossup, because I
don't know if he's for real.

Belcher ran up those impressive stats in Dodger Stadium -- his career
road ERA was 3.51.  He'll be 32.  I don't see him with an under-three ERA
again, unless he pitched with injuries in '92.  His OppBA and OppOBA were
the same as it was in 1991 -- the difference was that he gave up another
28 extra base hits between the two years.
-- 
ted frank                     | thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu 
standard disclaimers          | void where prohibited
the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: dietz@parody.Data-IO.COM (Kent Dietz)
Subject: GO AWAY JAYS (was: JAYS KICK BRAVES JAYS KICK BRAVES ... )
Organization: Data I/O Corporation
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 20:41:48 GMT

In article <XViHVB1w165w@student.business.uwo.ca>, s4lawren@student.business.uwo.ca (Stephen Lawrence) writes:
|>         I'd like to point out to anyone who may have forgotten, that 
|> approximately two months ago the Toronto Blue Jays systematically 
|> DESTROYED the hapless Atlanta Braves in front of an appreciative North 
|> American wide audience.
|>         This was a major humilation not only for a) Atlanta, b) the 
|> U.S.A. but also for c) the majority of major league baseball players, 
|> owners and fans!  Sports Illustrated subsequently redubbed baseball 
|> as being "Canada's Game".  I can only agree and eagerly await a repeat 
|> next year.  How about an all Canadian World Series?  That would be nice.
|> 
|>         GO JAYS GO JAYS GO JAYS GO JAYS GO JAYS GO JAYS
|> 
|> s4lawren@student.business.uwo.ca (Stephen Lawrence)
|> Western Business School  --  London, Ontario

How many Canadians are on the Toronto team?  In their farm club?  Holding 
a bat and not a stick?  Pleeease.  humiliation to the US?  May your flag
always be upside down! ( an unfortunate incident, but kinda funny anyway).

Also, I still *hate* the Jays; not anymore or less than before they finally ..
I repeat ... FINALLY broke out of the CHOKER role.  An aberration, I am sure
(Please, if there is a god!)

	GO AWAY JAYS GO AWAY JAYS GO AWAY JAYS GO AWAY JAYS

Kent Dietz
(Anyone for an official Toronto Blue Jays Anti-Fan Club!)

Hi Gordon :-)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: sgs@stein.u.washington.edu (Steven Smith)
Subject: Birthday
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 23:10:43 GMT

The first person deserving of a birthday post of his very own:

Rec.Sport.Baseball Birthday

December 11

Gary "Elvis" "Zuhars" "Lundiferous" "Huckatollah"
     "Huck-a-Huck o' Burnin' Love" "Kirschophilia"
     "The Huckinator" "Wild Silas" "Fritter-Man"
     "What's My F*cking Game Score?" "Blickster"
     "Eww, Too Much Lotion" "Mariners First in '92" 
     "Cellarquest, anyone?" "Holy Mother of God" 
     "Alvstad" "Carney was the Key--Believe It" 
     "Chop *THIS*!" "vestermania"
     "I Said It Was Muscle All Along, Honest,
      Mr. Puckett" "FattButt Fafoofnik" 
     "Miss Congeniality" "Lustigious" "Buy a Vowel"
     "5 MPH To Your Fastball or Your Lundy-Heels
      Back" "Little Lances of the Poor" "Furkloid"
     "Huckster of Belief" "More Freckles Than
      Steve Smith" "King's X" "If Only Eric Show
      Could Have Pitched to Robbie" "First Socks,
      *Then* Shoes" "Rollie Who?" "Peg o' My Heart" Huckabay (Net HOF), 1965
-- 
 sgs@u.washington.edu             * "The tall people want what the 
 Steve Smith                      *  short people got."
 University of Washington HR-20   *    --D. Wiggin-"Philosophy of the World"	 
 Seattle, WA 98195                * 
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: drw3l@delmarva.evsc.Virginia.EDU (David Robert Walker)
Subject: Re: Walks as hits (Was: Re: Stupidest rule in baseball (perhaps a new one))
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 01:55:29 GMT

In article <14DEC199216543240@pierre.mit.edu> kettler@pierre.mit.edu (KETTLER, THOMAS R.) writes:
>In article <1992Dec14.150204.29199@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>, 
>drw3l@delmarva.evsc.Virginia.EDU (David Rob writes...
>>It was adopted because a few players (John McGraw and Roy Thomas among
>>them) had gotten extremely proficient and deliberately fouling pitches
>>off, and working a pitcher for a walk. In 1899, McGraw drew 124 walks
>>with only 399 atbats (batting .391: a .547 OBA, second best in
>>history.)
>> 
>> 
>Are you sure about that OBA? It is also true that in the 1800's walks were 
>counted as hits. I am certain that Keeler's 44-game streak occured during that 
>time. It is also true that in the 1800's passed balls and wild pitches were 
>counted as errors.
>

Only partially true. Walks were only counted as hits in 1887. (Which
means they knew about on-base average! If they had only stayed with
it, it would be a traditional stat, and a lot of these net.wars would
be avoided!) Keeler's streak in 1897 wasn't affected by this.

Passed balls and wild pitches were errors charged to both pitcher and
catcher only in 1885 and 1886.

John McGraw's line for 1899:
399 AB, 156 H, 13 DB, 3 TP, 1 HR, 124 BB, 73 SB; 140 R, 33 RBI (!)
.391 BA, .547 OBA, .446 SA. 

Must have had about 13 HBP to make the .547 OBA. Mc Graw was playing
for the original Baltimore Orioles that year, and was reputedly a
master at bunting, the Baltimore chop, and bat control. That would
certainly explain how he racked up so many singles and so very little
power.

Incidentally, Ted didn't mention a primary scoring difference that
applied to most of the 19th century: stolen bases were awarded
whenever you took an extra base (i.e., first to third on a single), as
well as what we would regard as a steal. But even that rule was
changed, starting in 1898, so McGraw's 73 would count as 73 in the
modern game as well.

It was a remarkable year McGraw had, but it was arrived at by taking
advantage of the rulebook, and so they changed the rules to try and
stop it. The same thing happenned to Ross Barnes after 1876.

Clay D.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: jmk.admin@mhs.unc.edu (Jim Kirkman)
Subject: re: Holy Mother of God! (was: Re: Lou Gorman is a moron)
Organization: UNC Office of Information Technology
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 14:51:06 GMT

In article <1992Dec11.180451.26514@news2.cis.umn.edu> kirsch@staff.tc.umn.edu (Dave 'Almost Cursed the Jays' Kirsch) writes:
>In article <92336.161132IO20738@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> <IO20738@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> writes:
>>Red Sox general manager Lou Gorman is a fool.  He must
>>sit at home every night trying to think of how he can
>>ruin the Red Sox even more.
> 
>  I hate to sound repetitive, but 
>
>  Holy Mother of God! What has Lou Gorman been smoking? 
>
>  Heard a day or two ago the Red Sox sent Phil Plantier to San Diego for Jose 
>Melendez. ESPN mentioned it almost as an 'Oh by the way' type sidenote, and 
>I suspect it won't get much attention nationally. On the other hand, r.s.bb
>will probably become a collection of wailing souls. I really like Jose
>Melendez, and he looked like closer material in relief last year. That doesn't
>make him worth a 23-year old Phil Plantier. Melendez is 27, and Seattle
>literally gave him to San Diego a couple years ago. (If memory serves, the
>Padres picked him off the waiver wire or made a minor deal for him.) Is this 
>what has become of Phil Plantier's value?  
>
>  Even if I *were* a Red Sox fan before, this would make me wanna hurl and
>just plain give up. I'd defect to the West Mifflin Monkeys.  
>
>>  What kind of drugs is Lou on?
Interesting comment by Phil Rogers of the Dallas Morning News 
in his Major-League Notebook. He puts the Melendez/Plantier
trade as his best trade winner! Called Ozzie's deal the 
best contract,player and Griffey Jr. best contract,team. First
positive comment I've read about Melendez.



L.P.
Date: Thursday, 17 Dec 1992 20:33:53 EST
From: <RVESTERM@vma.cc.nd.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: All-Dietz Team

you forget dutch dietz, a pitcher for the pirates in the early 40's.

so you've got a battery.

bob vesterman.

Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: dkeisen@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dave Eisen)
Subject: Re: All-Time A's Team
Organization: Sequoia Peripherals, Inc.
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 18:32:07 GMT

>	3B Baker

Is he clearly better than Bando? Bando had pretty good power
and gave the A's a lot of good years.



-- 
Dave Eisen                               Sequoia Peripherals: (415) 967-5644
dkeisen@leland.Stanford.EDU              Home:                (415) 321-5154
       There's something in my library to offend everybody. 
          --- Washington Coalition Against Censorship
From: deitch@gisatl.FIDONET.ORG (David Deitch)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: re: I don't understand the Braves.
Date: 11 Dec 92 23:44:58 GMT
Organization: Galaxy Information System (GIS) Atlanta, Ga

Dateline Wed, 09/Dec92 01:28.
In , UUCP of dcarrano@eagle.wesleyan.edu wrote to All at 1:133/411,

 U> I suppose we should credit the Braves' success to the 
 U> scouts, and just hope that Johnny doesn't screw up what 
 U> they accomplish too much...unless he is a genius.  Ask 
 U> his mom...

     Don't forget that Bobby Cox is enjoying the fruit of his labors as GM in a strong farm team.  Barring any more trading, it would seem that the John has great confidence in Bobby's judgement in seeding the crop of future Braves.

          David Deitch, (GIS) Atlanta



--  
----------------------------------------------------------
               __
              /  \             User: David Deitch
             /|oo \            Via FidoNet node: 1:133/411.0
            (_|  /_)
             _`@/_ \    _     FidoNet <==> UUCP Gateway
            |     | \   \\    FidoNet Net 133, Atl96
            | (*) |  \_  ))
  ______    |__U__| /  \//     David Deitch, Administrator
 / FIDO \    _//|| _\   /     Galaxy Information System
(________)  (_/(_|(____/ (jm)   (GIS) Atlanta            

UUCP: wittsend!gisatl!deitch
INTERNET: deitch@gisatl.FIDONET.ORG
From: bspencer@cs.mcgill.ca (Brian SPENCER)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Baseball finances query
Date: 16 Dec 92 21:07:12 GMT
Organization: SOCS - Mcgill University, Montreal, Canada

In article <42630@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> demers@cs.ucsd.edu (David DeMers) writes:
>
>In article <1992Dec16.032250.21922@midway.uchicago.edu>, thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank) writes:
>
>|> >I don't know the exact percentages for the split of the gate, ...
>|> 
>|> I believe the exact percentage is actually different in the AL than in the
>|> NL.  It is in double digits, but it's nowhere near 40% for the visitors.
>
>OK, so none of us appear to really know, so I'll put my soggy neurons on
>this.  I seem to recall that the NL splits the gate pretty evenly, but
>the AL gives the visitors just a small bit.  Don't remember the numbers
>so I'll make some up - 50-50 NL, 70-30 AL?
>
SI did a piece on this a while ago. NL teams get 5% (yes five) of the
gate. AL gets a bit less. The best is football, which gives 49%. Trivia
question...which sport is healthier?

Brian
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: beckerjw@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (John Becker)
Subject: Cubs sign another...
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 21:55:48 GMT

The last line on the WGN(Chicago) Midday News on 12/11 was that the Cubs
have signed outfielder Candy Moldonado(sp?).  Has anybody else heard this?
Looks like the Cubbies are trying to fill that Andre Dawson hole.  More
information on WGN's 9:00(CST) News.


-- 
John Becker                      | "A flute with no holes is not a flute.
(beckerjw@mentor.cc.purdue.edu)  |  And a donut with no holes is a danish."
                                 |       
                                 |      -Chevy Chase in Caddyshack
From: bspencer@cs.mcgill.ca (Brian SPENCER)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Matt Stairs (was Re: Cordero)
Date: 16 Dec 92 15:49:39 GMT
Organization: SOCS - Mcgill University, Montreal, Canada

In article <14DEC92.14150271.0096@VM1.MCGILL.CA> CZ94 <CZ94@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA> writes:
>In article <42528@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> demers@cs.ucsd.edu (David DeMers) writes:
>>
>>If the Expos dump Wallach and play Stairs at 3B and Cordero
>>at SS, Colbrunn at 1B and the OF as is, they will win the
>>division (barring injury and a healthy Phillies staff).
>>
>What sort of fielding experience (at 3B or elsewhere) does Stairs
>have in the minors?  I saw him play a couple of games in LF last
>year, and he looked like he was born to DH.  Just anecdotal
>evidence, I know, so more solid info would be welcome.  I agree
>that Wallach has to go.
>

I agree Wallach has to go. But nobody wants him at $3M a year so he'll
stay. This is just another example of stupid owners giving aged players
a ton of money and then finding out they made a big mistake. The Expos
have learned their lesson and won't do it again. Maybe the Yankees
should take their cue.

I think Stairs was an infielder in the minors, and not a very good one.
He played outfield this season for the Expos (when he was up) and showed
that he can't play that position either. So, off to the AL where fringe
players can still play baseball (I know I'll regret that last one)

Brian Spencer (bspencer@binkley.cs.mcgill.ca)