From: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: zionism in crisis
Date: 22 Jan 93 13:23:49 EST
Reply-To: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Distribution: talk
Organization: Channel 1 Communications

To: Karen Lee Givon

 KG> Wayne, I have not felt the least bit of respect from you.
 KG> All you have shown us is an obsession with proving that
 KG> Judaism is racist (on an inappropriate newsgroup I might
 KG> add).

I have a very different perception of what is going on. Shai
Guday made the flat assertion in here that Jews do not constitute
a race in the biological sense. I challenged his assertion with a
simple message that I had come across passages in my reading in
which prominent Jews had argued otherwise. When challenged on my
comment, I went ahead and produced the passages. Guday's remark
triggered this whole thread.

A few users here, particularly Danny Keren, went completely off
the deep end and rapidly escalated what could have been a useful
and interesting discussion into a carnival of hysteria. The
well-documented quotes drove him right over the edge. I just
reread Isaiah Berlin's Against the Current the other day, and can
produce many more quotes in this vein. You should read Moses Hess
on this issue: his program for founding a Jewish state, which
evolved into Zionism, was founded on the central proposition that
Jews constituted a biological race. At its very core, Zionism was
founded on racial concepts. This fact has enormous relevance to
contemporary Mideast and Israeli politics. Ideologies have
enormous consequences in the real world.

So apparently what you want me to do is when I see a remark like
that by Shai Guday which can be strongly challenged, just keep my
mouth shut. Don't engage in free and open inquiry or try to
explore the truth and set the record straight for fear of
offending the sensibilities of folks like Guday, Danny Keren,
Christ Metcalfe, or yourself.

Or take questions of alleged "motives." Apparently emotional
pro-Israelists can post voluminously in here without any
consideration of their motives, but anyone who wants to disagree
with them on certain points has to pass a motive test. I assume
their motive is a passionate concern for Israel. MY motive is a
passionate concern for American interests in the Mideast and the
world in general. I care about Israel, but not nearly as much as
I care about the U.S., and I make no apologies for my agenda. I
am an American, not an Israeli.

Love of Israel requires no explanations; love of America or
concern for the world order does.

Or take Chris Metcalfe and Mark Ira Kaufman: they resent non-Jews
inspecting Judaism too closely, but they want to reserve the
right of Jews to rummage through any belief system, including
Christianity or Islam, to their hearts' content, and turn up and
loudly broadcast whatever dirt they turn up. Hamas's views should
be publicized; those of Kahanists or Gush Emunim or even Shamir
should be hidden away in the basement, out of sight of the prying
goyim.

What I see is a deep pool of irrationality and flagrant double
standards on the part of many Zionists here. Their behavior is
alienating me, and I know for a fact that it is profoundly
alienating many other people in the world. The overall effect is
more pathetic than outrageous: they give the impression that they
can't stand on their own two feet as adults and survive a free
and open give-and-take of views. They need to rely on any crutch
they can find to prop them up or any handy diversion to turn
attention away from substantive issues.

Israel and many of her more unquestioning supporters are
currently in a state of free fall, and most of them are too blind
to realize it. If you properly understand Clinton's foreign
policy appointments, which are in the tradition of Carter's and
Bush's concerning Mideast matters, you will realize that the free
fall is going to grow much worse unless Israel is able soon to
work out a decent living arrangement with the Palestinians,
drastically reduce its dependence on American generosity, and
settle down into a condition of normality with its neighbors and
the rest of the world, as a state just like any other state.
Americans are growing exceedingly weary of the demands that
Israel is making on our attention and on our Treasury. Israel and
her supporters have just about exhausted all the good will they
possess, and it will probably be impossible for them to replenish
it.

I've been in many discussions with Buddhists, Hindus, and Sikhs
lately about the nature of their religions and beliefs. When I've
frankly challenged their ideas in free and open inquiry, they
NEVER lost their cool. They saw each challenge as an opportunity
to make a friendly and effective presentation of their beliefs.

Compare their approach to human relations with that of so many
Zionists in this newsgroup. No wonder Israel is having so much
trouble getting along with "the nations." Many Zionists seem to
lack the most fundamental understanding of how to communicate
effectively with the rest of the world. Instead of being cheerful
and confident about their beliefs, and treating every challenge
as an opportunity to make new friends, they are perpetually angry
and defensive. And the deeper the hole they dig for themselves,
the more they blame the problem on anyone but themselves.
Anti-Semitism--the ignorance and depravity of non-Jews--is their
explanation for everything that is going sour in their human
relations.

If their beliefs are increasingly more difficult to defend in
free and open discussion without relying on abuse and gimmicks
and diversions, perhaps they should consider revising them.
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