From: jrk@information-systems.east-anglia.ac.uk (Richard Kennaway)
Newsgroups: sci.philosophy.meta
Subject: Re: Different moralities and Re: What is Love? _The Story of O_
Date: 15 Sep 92 17:49:36 GMT

In <1992Sep15.043626.7918@news.eng.convex.com>, cash@convex.com (Peter Cash)
writes:
>This is something of a let-down, isn't it? We start discussing the moral
>implications of a novel, and now you tell me that fiction won't do for this
>purpose.

Well, I didn't introduce O to the thread.

>Indeed, this seems a bit counterintuitive--haven't many literary
>and academic careers been built on long-winded discussions about the
>motivations of fictional characters?

Such careers are built on sand.

>Do we always know everything there is
>to know about the motivations of _real_ people? It seems to me that we
>often know a good deal _less_ about the motivations of real people than we
>do about fictional characters.

We know the motivations of fictional characters usually because the author
helpfully tells us what they are, or at least shows us their inner workings.
The problem I have with fiction is that it lacks *depth*.  When set against
the real world, it is like a cartoon, a caricature, in which one can find
nothing but the artist's own view of the things depicted, nothing having any
existence independent from that point of view.  When you look at reality,
you may discover things that no-one else thought of before.  When you look
at fiction, you see only second-hand thoughts, pre-digested by the author.

>And I said that even if [the events of O] are consensual, then there was wrongdoing. As
>far as I can tell, you didn't address that issue.

I said that if they are consensual, then in my view there was no wrongdoing. 
What more can I say?  Well, I can indicate something of the background from
which I make that statement.  Being of a somewhat libertarian outlook, I am
inclined to respect the decisions of other people, even if they are
decisions I would not make for myself in their position.  If all those
involved in some situation consent to what goes on, it is no concern of
mine.  To intervene for what I might consider to be someone else's own good,
in defiance of their clearly expressed and informed wishes, is something I
would be unwilling to do other than in the most extreme circumstances.

If you disagree with this view, I do not know how further progress might be
made.  What evidence or argument would you bring to bear?

>Oh very well, I'll bow to your superior scholarship--she wasn't killed in
>one of two endings for the first book, and seems to have lived through the
>(possibly non-canonical) sequel. Doesn't really matter, does it?

Well, no, it doesn't.  Fiction is an excellent medium for presenting ideas,
but not for arguing for or against those ideas, since everything that
happens in a work of fiction happens simply because the author says so, and
for no other reason.  To psychoanalyse Hamlet, to construct a non-
supernatural interpretation of "The Turn of the Screw", to create the
Klingon language, or to speculate on O's motivations may be interesting,
even fascinating, jeux d'esprit, but are incapable of establishing truths
about the world, ethical or physical.

In <1992Sep15.050117.9316@news.eng.convex.com>, cash@convex.com (Peter Cash)
writes:
>As any student of ethics knows, it's easy to come up with stories about
>societies with bizarre customs that cultural relativists use to buttress
>their contention that "morality is relative". As you so ably pointed out,
>if one looks at the context of these customs and makes an effort to
>understand them, then it indeed becomes harder to see a "different
>morality" in them.

Bing!  Now apply this to the "bizarre customs" (if you consider them so)
of the denizens of alt.sex.bondage.  Look at the context of these customs
and make an effort to understand them.  There are several other newsgroups
to which this exercise might usefully be applied, some of them more widely
available than a.s.b.  There is also a real world out there to study.
If you keep your eyes open, you can probably find enough "bizarre customs"
in your own back yard.

--
Richard Kennaway     SYS, University of East Anglia, Norwich NR4 7TJ, U.K.
Internet:  jrk@sys.uea.ac.uk               uucp:  ...mcsun!ukc!uea-sys!jrk
Newsgroups: sci.philosophy.meta