From: sjk@strl.labs.tek.com (Steven King)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: How to get daughter more career-minded?
Date: 2 Oct 92 00:09:45 GMT
Reply-To: sjk@strl.labs.tek.com (Steven King)
Followup-To: misc.kids
Organization: Software Technology Research Lab, Tektronix, Inc.

In article <1992Sep29.124932.20994@nynexst.com>, clare@nynexst.com (Clare Chu) writes:

|> First off, I'd agree with most everyone about not worrying, a four year
|> old will likely change his/her mind from one day to the next.  Also that
|> I've met a lot of unhappy pre-meds who flunked chemistry whose parents
|> wanted them to be doctors, so I don't think anyone should wish being
|> a doctor on anyone, except themselves, if you catch my drift.

Don't forget the people who _are_ doctors but aren't happy about it.
Remember the people that are doctors, are happy about it, but are total
arrogant asses (and you aren't happy about it ;^).  Doctors come in many
flavors.
 
|> However the original poster (Publius) was worried that his/her little
|> girl was internalizing too much of society's definition of a female's
|> goal in life is to "get married and have kids."  No one seems to have
|> addressed this concern, which I think is valid.  Too many little girls
|> aspire to nothing more than a "handsome prince" to "rescue" them from
|> their dreary everyday life.

[ Stuff about "grown-up women still waiting around for their prince..."
  deleted]

This sounds more like a self-esteem issue, rather than a lifestyle issue.
From all the women I have known who exhibit this behavior, they seem to
lack the self-confidence to be without a partner or savior.  So why not
focus on self-esteem, and let the child decide how they will apply it?

BTW: Many, many men deal with the opposite side of your generalization.
Once they have accomplished everything they ever wanted, or they don't
accomplish exactly what they wanted, the crutch of "accomplishment" is
quickly gone.  They then fall flat on their faces.  Thus, the linkage
between accomplishment and self-esteem is a house of cards - which falls
in a great many cases.

|> Maybe there are not many of us on the net who bought into this myth.
|> Somehow I guess that most women here are in some sort of profession.
|> But believe me, the path is littered with roomates and friends and
|> schoolmates who do wait around for some man to whisk them away from their
|> lousy jobs, who sit around waiting for the phone to ring, who go from
|> one un-nice guy to another, and who worry that they're 25 and not married
|> yet, and talk endlessly about their biological clocks.

There are plenty of men who wish the same thing.  Sure, it's not necessarily
related to another person, but they fantasize about retiring early and fish-
ing, or getting the "ultimate" position, or whatever.  They also focus on
what hot babe they can have that will be the ultimate cook/lover/caregiver/
whatever.  I think that both the male and female gender harbor the fantasy
of another person rescuing them from their troubles.
 
|> Boys and men get their self-esteem and pride in their accomplishments.
|> But many women and girls are overly concerned about the approval of others.
|> Movies and fairy-tales only reinforce this for girls.  The boys are the
|> doers, the rescuers, the ones who provide the escape from evil step-mothers
|> or dreary surroundings.  The girls wait around passively, or devote their
|> energies to catching the prince.  Girls are judged on looks, boys are judged
|> on actions.  Main characters like "Sleeping Beauty", face it, she was asleep
|> during the whole fairy-tale and her only redeeming quality is her beauty
|> emphasize the passivity that is expected for a princess.  Any female character
|> who has any willpower, or any desires for power or success is deemed the
|> evil stepmother, the witch, the hag.  Active females who actually try to
|> do something to change the circumstances of their lives are automatically
|> classified as "evil", and in movies and TV shows (soap operas), the "bitch".
|> No wonder self-assured little girls favor the "bitches" in these shows, and
|> don't identify with the "princess", a simpering little piece of passivity.
|> Boys get a choice between hero and villian (both active roles).  Girls get
|> the lousy choice between princess (passive) and witch (active).

You over generalize.  The great men in society are typically not the loud,
brash, abrasive ones.  Sure, men are probably more easily forgiven if they
exhibit this behavior -- but the most powerful men I know are able to get
the job done and make it a win-win proposition, instead of pounding their
shoes on the table and yelling "We will bury you!"  :^)  

Men are learning to be more "feminine" and women are learning to be
more "masculine".  I don't feel that it is a black&white issue (of women
vs. men).  I don't think that women have to totally reject their feminine
qualities to assert the masculine qualities - and vice-versa.  They should
honor BOTH qualities, and teach BOTH qualities to BOTH sexes.

What about the times that a man _really_ wants to cry, but doesn't?  Don't
you think he is experiencing an internal struggle?  Why don't we just toss
out all videos/books/ideas the portray man as an agressor and create
stories that promote men in traditionally feminine roles?  THAT will REALLY
solve the problem, won't it?

The world will always stereotype.  The world will never agree with your
ideal of a balance between feminine and masculine.  You don't have to
totally reject something else to justify your viewpoint, however.  Take
the "good", leave the "bad" and do the best you can.

|> As a parent, yes I would be concerned. And as a 4 year-old I wanted to be a
|> PhD in a hard field, and yes, I did get my PhD in Applied Mathematics.
|> My parents did not push me.  They did provide an alternative to passivity
|> by pointing out the stereotyping and the brainwashing (that's what my mom
|> calls it) of the fairy-tales.  They did not ban Snow White or any of these
|> stories, but since we didn't have video, we weren't so hooked on any of
|> these tales (the way it seems like today's little girls are hooked on
|> the Little Mermaid, complete with Little Mermaid paraphrenelia).
|> For a good run-down of fairy tales, there was a book by Andrea Dworkin,
|> can't remember the name.  But it sure was interesting and eye-opening.

We are all brainwashed, are we not?  We just choose which source washes
our brain.  NPR.  CNN.  NBC.  CNBC.  TNN.  MTV.  Dobson.  Dodson.  Bettleheim.
Spock.  Fuller.  Radio.  TV.  Books.  Professional publications.  Scientific
Data.  Mathmatical Proofs.  C++ programs.  UNIX (really yucky).

We must wisely choose the sources that we feed our children.  We, as parents,
have a responsibility to _guide_ our children.  We must try to teach them
what we _think_ is the best method for them to use.  Ultimately, however,
the choice is theirs to make.  There is no mathmatical proof (or in my
case, fully debugged C++ program) we can use to raise our children in
exactly the correct manner.  That's called LIFE.

Sometimes I think that we confuse which areas we can impact and which we
cannot - from a parental perspective.  I believe, from everything I've
read/heard/seen that you can have the most impact with self-esteem and
core values.  The rest is up to the children.  Career choices, role
models, favorite fantasy characters and the like are, to a large degree,
the choice of the children.

I also feel that we think we (or the outside world) have more of an
impact than we actually do.  Children have a certain personality style
from a very early age.  We can work within that style, but there are
certain aspects of it that we (or the child) will never be able to
change.  Sometimes our well-intentioned attempts for force (or withhold)
certains good (or bad) traits/information/behaviors upon our children
can have a greater _negative_ impact upon the child than any potential
positive outcome.

Just my $10.00 worth before I'm gone on business for a week.

Thanks to everyone for the insightful discussion on this topic!

Steven (sjk@strl.labs.tek.com)

"Sometimes if you have a cappuccino and then try again it will work OK."
(Dr. Brian Reid)  "Sometimes one cappuccino isn't enough." (Marcus Ranum)
"A double vanilla latte always works."  (Me)
Newsgroups: misc.kids,misc.education,k12.chat.teacher,sci.med