HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Organization: University of Maine System
Date: Thursday, 31 Dec 1992 10:24:52 EST
From: ROB <IO10407@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Elven Anatomy

  This past weekend a friend and I had an argument over whether or not
Tolkien's Eldar had pointed ears or not.  He took the position that
Elves have traditionally had slightly pointed ears and thus appear that
way in a wide range of literature. I stood by the fact that Tolkien
never did actually state that his Elves did have such ears and referenced
"The Silmarillion" (Ch 12, page 104, Of Men):
     In those days Elves and Men were of like stature and
     strength of body...
     ...and in those days they were more like the bodies of Men...

Our argument was never resolved.

  After doing some reading in "The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien", I came across
the following passages:

	Also I now deeply regret having used Elves, though this
	is a word in ancestry and original meaning suitable
	enough. But the disastrous debasement of this word, in
	which Shakespeare played an unforgivable part, has really
	overloaded it with regrettable tones, which are too much
	to over come. (page 185)

  Is this to reflect an older tradition of Elves being pointy eared pixies
that prance in the woods (and build toys at the North Pole), and are but
knee hight?

  A letter dated earlier that same year, 1954, had this to say:

	They represented a race similar in appearance
	(and more so the further back) to Men, and in former
	days of the same stature. I will not here go into
	The differences from Men! But I suppose that the
	Quendi and in fact in these histories very little
	akin to the Elves and Fairies of Europe; and if I
	were pressed to rationalize, i should sat that they
	represent really Men with greatly enhanced aesthetic
	and creative faculties, greater beauty and longer
	life, and nobility...(page 176)

  Aiya! Here we have something to build upon. Again there is the reference to
Elves being "similar in appearance..to Men" and they are "little akin to the
Elves and Fairies of Europe". I think it is plain here that Tolkien was
establishing the physical stature of the Quendi, as we have come to know
them, and also resolving the state of their ears. "Little akin" must refer
to the European Elf/Faerie size and anatomy, small and pointy eared. It's a
thought, if only a weak one....

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk)
Subject: Re: Dwarves want women (was Re: Melkor: Genetic Engineer?)
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 06:17:16 GMT

forb0004@student.tc.umn.edu (Eric Forbis ) writes:
>The dwarf- women must have beards, else it wouldn't be difficult to 
>distinguish them from the men. I wonder how they reproduce their species? 
>Given a longer lifespan (250 yrs) they'd have ample time, yet they don't 
>seem to be very motivated. 
>Eric Forbis      forb0004@student.tc.umn.edu

Continuing with that passage about dwarves, it is also said
Dwarves only take one wife, and there are few dwarf-women, and some want
a man they cannot have while others simply do not want any man.  In short,
there are few dwarf-women and they can be very picky about who they take as
a mate and thus aren't as plentiful as Orcs who will breed with anything.

					Michael Lewchuk
					lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA
From: jim@rand.org (Jim Gillogly)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Tom Bombadil again
Date: 28 Dec 92 06:42:32 GMT
Organization: Banzai Institute

In article <MVOORHIS.92Dec27122439@granite.WPI.EDU> mvoorhis@granite.WPI.EDU (Michael C Voorhis) writes:
>> References for this passage are LR I Ch. 6,8; LR II Ch. 6 and 
>> _The_Adventures_of_Tom_Bombadil_ poems 1 & 2
>
>but where is the passage itself from?

The paragraph about Tom Bombadil as a Maia is from the biography section of
Tolkien:  The Illustrated Encyclopedia, by David Day.  ISBN 0-02-031275-X,
Collier Books/Macmillan NY. 1992.  The article on Goldberry says she "may
have been a Maia".

I don't buy either of them -- I think TB is a separate creation outside
the context of the Valar and Maiar.  I think he's something like the
embodiment of Arda, and implied by and created by the song of the Ainur,
which is to say something like an earth elemental.  If he were Maia then,
like Gandalf and Sauron, he would be affected by the One Ring.  The Valar
are well-known and accounted for, so he isn't one of them.

-- 
	Jim Gillogly
	U.S. National Debt: $4,186,171,548,361
	Your Share: $16,350
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: suwandi@fraser.sfu.ca (Julian Suwandi)
Subject: Re: Orcs in the Last Alliance
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 17:50:07 GMT

dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) writes:

[some stuff in ref to Similarion]
>	All living things were divided in that day, and some of every
>	kind, even of beasts and birds, were found in either host, save 
>	the Elves only.

>Does this mean that there were orcs and trolls fighting for Gil-Galad
>and Elendil in the last alliance?  Ents fighting on both sides?  Or
>am I reading too much into this passage?

That is interesting.. I doubt that the Ents would fight on either sides at that
time (cos they are a peaceful race and they don't get 'hasty':)

Orcs and Trolls are inherently evil creatures (made by the dark), thus it is
almost impossible that they would be fighting for Gil-Galad and Elendil!!

I don't know what the sentence means.. maybe it's just to stress that it was an
all out war between good and evil..
-- 
    ********************** KEEP CHRIST IN CHRISTMAS *********************
      Julian Suwandi        |  Quotes / Unquote of the week
         643-0827           |      Insanity is hereditary... 
      suwandi@sfu.ca        |      You get it from your kids.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: forb0004@student.tc.umn.edu (Eric Forbis )
Subject: Multimedia LOTR?
Organization: University of Minnesota
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 05:13:57 GMT

Has anyone heard of work being done on a multimedia version of the LOTR? I 
envision a database with pull- down menus where I can access performances of 
music and recitations of the poetry, detailed biographical information, the 
ability to query while reading the story the whereabouts and pursuits of the 
other characters, complete with maps... For the more scholarly inclined, 
complete cross- referencing and the ability to recall the appropriate note, 
letter, etc. for a given passage, and a complete lexicon of all languages. 
Might take several CD's, but it's possible. It would probably be impossible 
to stick to the LOTR; too many references point to the Silmarilion, Letters, 
etc., which would also need to be included in full. 

Could even include a game, preferably 3- D as in Ultima Underworld: The 
Stygian Abyss. Hmmm


---------------
Twas in olden times,    as eagles screamed
and holy rivers flowed   from the Heaven- Fells...
--First Lay of Helgi the Hunding- Slayer
---------

Eric Forbis      forb0004@student.tc.umn.edu
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Question: LOTR Wizards
Date: 21 Dec 1992 14:41:16 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In article <EGDORF.92Dec16162253@zaphod.lanl.gov> egdorf@zaphod.lanl.gov (Skip Egdorf) writes:
>>   In article <BzAAIH.685@unix.amherst.edu>, jdliss@unix.amherst.edu (Jeff Liss) writes...
>>   >I don't know if it's every explained.  Also, what does Gandalf mean
>>   >when he declares himself to the Balrog as "a servant of the Secret
>>   >Fire"?
>>
>
>I always thought that this was a referance to his secret ownership of
>the ring of fire.

Ah, but Gandalf is not the servant of his ring.  The ring is his tool.
Therefore, I'd think this refers to the fire of creation, as others
have suggested.

(Although I agree with you that Gandalf's skills with fireworks and
fireballs (in the Hobbit) owe something to the ring...)




Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: tjg01@thdhub.HomeDepot.COM (Terry Gardner)
Subject: Re: Bombadil etc.
Organization: Home Depot USA, Inc.
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 14:34:22 GMT
X-Posted-From: thdhub.homedepot.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1992Dec31.074603.12184@cs.UAlberta.CA> lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk) writes:

   Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: forb0004@student.tc.umn.edu (Eric Forbis )
Subject: Re: Dwarves want women (was Re: Melkor: Genetic Engineer?)
Organization: University of Minnesota
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 03:55:05 GMT

In article <1hb1joINN6sj@mirror.digex.com> dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) writes:
>In article <BzpwuI.25I@max.physics.sunysb.edu> jlauret@sbchem.sunysb.edu (Jerome LAURET) writes:

>>	Do anybody remenber about female dwarves in both Sil or LOTR ??
>
>FWIW, the only female dwarf explicitly mentioned is Dis, sister of
>Thorin and mother to Fili and Kili.  She's mentioned somewhere in the
>appendices.  Unfortunately, it gives no description of her, so we are 
>left with the mystery of whether female dwarves have beards...
>

Appendix A of _The Return of the King_ reads:

"Dis was the daughter of Thrain II. She is the only dwarf-woman mentioned in 
these histories. It is said by Gimli that there are few dwarf women, 
probably no more than a third of the whole people. They seldom walk abroad 
except at great need. They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they 
must go on a journey, so like to the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of 
other peoples cannot tell them apart. This has given rise to the foolish 
opinion amoung Men that there are no dwarf-women, and that the Dwarves 'grow 
out of stone'."

The dwarf- women must have beards, else it wouldn't be difficult to 
distinguish them from the men. I wonder how they reproduce their species? 
Given a longer lifespan (250 yrs) they'd have ample time, yet they don't 
seem to be very motivated. 
---------

Eric Forbis      forb0004@student.tc.umn.edu
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: cary@carina.unm.edu (Ithlial the Archer)
Subject: Re: Bombadil etc.
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 92 18:52:48 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
Keywords: Tom Bombadil

In article <1992Dec31.074603.12184@cs.UAlberta.CA> lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk) writes:
>
>First of all, I'd like to ask why Galadriel was banned from Valinor and why
>her refusal of the Ring was her redemption.

Galadriel was banned from Valinor because she along with Feanor and his sons
was a leader in the Noldor 'rebellion' after Morgoth stole the jewels and
killed Finwe. 

I don't remember anything about her refusal of the One Ring being rewarded
by ending the ban.  It seemed to me that once Sauron was destroyed all the
noldor were allowed to return to Aman.  Certainly if she had not refused 
the ring Sauron would not have been destroyed or even defeated and Galadriel
would have played avery different role in the war.


Ithlial

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

               The only good Troll is a dead Troll

Collary:

          Trolls regenerate - There are no dead Trolls
From: nightsng@anarky.tch.org (Nightsong)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Bombadil etc.
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 93 01:57:13 PST
Organization: The Canned Ham, San Jose, CA.

> Are you in fact convinced that the Olorin (Maia) and Gandalf were
> one and the same? I'm not. True, it would be convincing in some ways,
> but what about the other Istari? Why would Saruman be chosen as head
> of the White Council, and not mentioned otherwise? I admit that I
> go back and forth on the issue of whether Gandalf-Mithrandir was
> the Olorin, but today, I don't think so.
> 

Again, although I am just (again) quoting the "encyclopaedia" of tolkien, 
it says that he was in fact Olo'rin in the Undying Lands.  However, the 
author could also  be completely wrong. Myself, I have absolutely no 
idea -- there are convincing arguments for both
From: cpage@adobe.com (Chris Page)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: The Only Good Orc is a Dead Orc
Date: 22 Dec 92 04:10:53 GMT
Followup-To: alt.fan.tolkien
Organization: Adobe Systems, Inc.

In article <1992Dec21.103338.9677@odin.diku.dk>, klaus@diku.dk (Klaus Ole
Kristiansen) wrote:
> 
> dwight@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Dwight Robert Stone) writes:
> 
> >There is no redemption, no salvation, no reformation for orcs.
> 
> There is a place in Letters, were Tolkien says something
> like this:
> 
> Orcs are inherently evil. I almost wrote irredemably evil,
> but nothing is iredemable.
> 
> Unfortunately, I have not been able to find this. I will
> try again.
> 
> klaus O K

Lord of The Rings and other works of fiction by Tolkien are just that:
fiction.
It is interesting to try to talk about the details of his stories, but I
think
we must sometimes remember that if Tolkien didn't put some little detail
explicitly into the story, we can't really begin to guess what all of his
exact
intentions were, we can only try to decide what our personal
interpretations
are. (Please don't flame me for stating the obvious, I'm about to make a
point
about my interpretation.)

Obviously from the letter, he implies that orcs are not entirely beyond
redemption and that's something nice to think about (that even creatures
made
by evil for evil are not unredemeable). On the other hand, fiction
(especially
fantasy) often fundamentally relies on "pure evil" and "pure good" to
create
conflict. My interpretation is that Tolkien intended to use good and evil
for
drama and that the indiscriminant slaughtering of evil creatures was not
entirely immoral in this context. Of course, I think he shows us throughout
the
story that good creatures often had mercy or pity for evil creatures and
that
this was a good moral stance (Gollum was spared several times by different
characters).

Chris Page
Adobe Systems, Inc.
cpage@mv.us.adobe.com

Disclaimer: these are my own opinions and not necessarily those of my
employer.
This is the Minimalist(tm) .sig, not to be confused with the Null(tm) .sig.
From: Michael.P.Colburn@dartmouth.edu (Michael P. Colburn)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Tom Bombadil again
Date: 29 Dec 92 22:20:43 GMT
 <MVOORHIS.92Dec27122439@granite.WPI.EDU> <4116@randvax.rand.org>  
 <lewchuk.725609136@therien>
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0a5@newshost.dartmouth.edu


 jim@rand.org (Jim Gillogly) writes:
>I don't buy either of them -- I think TB is a separate creation outside
>the context of the Valar and Maiar.  I think he's something like the
>embodiment of Arda, and implied by and created by the song of the Ainur,
>which is to say something like an earth elemental.  If he were Maia then,
>like Gandalf and Sauron, he would be affected by the One Ring.  The Valar
>are well-known and accounted for, so he isn't one of them.
>	Jim Gillogly                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

As mentioned in the 'Valaquenta', there were 7 "Lords" of the Valar and
7 "Valier" (Queens of the Valar).  As they were Lords and Queens OF the
Valar, there could be other Valar (such as TB).  It would seem unlikely
that a Valar in Ea would go unrecognized, unless he/she wanted it that
way (hmmm...sounds like that ol' hermit Tom).  And if Tom were one of
the Valar, this also might explain why the One Ring had no power over
him.  Just a thought....

Mike Colburn                         =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Dartmouth-Hitchcock                  "Pulu-see-ba-goomba" -- Gilligan 
Medical Center                       =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Lebanon, New Hampshire  03756        :-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-)
From: mvoorhis@granite.WPI.EDU (Michael C Voorhis)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Tom Bombadil again
Date: 27 Dec 92 12:24:39
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute, Worcester, MA 01609-2280
NNTP-Posting-Host: granite.wpi.edu
In-reply-to: kwadswor@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu's message of Sun, 27 Dec 1992 06:25:06 GMT

> References for this passage are LR I Ch. 6,8; LR II Ch. 6 and 
> _The_Adventures_of_Tom_Bombadil_ poems 1 & 2

but where is the passage itself from?

	Mike.
	(mvoorhis@wpi.wpi.edu)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: schere@aix.rpi.edu (Mithrandir)
Subject: Re: Orcs in the Last Alliance
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 21:00:27 GMT

In article <1h5431INNai6@bigboote.WPI.EDU> mvoorhis@granite.WPI.EDU (Michael C Voorhis) writes:
>In article <1h4i59INN8fa@mirror.digex.com> dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) writes:
>> [..passage from `Silmarillion' deleted..]
>>Does this mean that there were orcs and trolls fighting for Gil-Galad
>>and Elendil in the last alliance?  Ents fighting on both sides?  Or
>>am I reading too much into this passage?
>
>Wow!  neat question!  I don't think you're reading too much into it, it
>just never occurred to me that Orcs or ents might fight for a side other
>than their `own'...

Maybe the orcs and trolls switched sides during the battle when they saw
they were screwed.  I can see the Haradrim and Orcs fighting side by
side... Trolls leading the Oliphaunts...      
That would show how divided everything was...Men traitors, Orcs traitors..

>
>Cool question, but I doubt you'll find data to support an answer
>anywhere, I don't think there's a whole lot of supporting data for the
>battle on Dagorlad.  At least I don't recall any specific stuff...
>
>	Mike.

Namarie,
Mithrandir
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Many are my names in many countries.  Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkun to 
the Dwarves; Olorin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the 
South Incanus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: seurer@rchland.vnet.ibm.com (Bill Seurer)
Subject: Re: The Secret Fire (was Re: Question: LOTR Wizards)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 19:36:23 GMT
Reply-To: BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Rochester

In article <1992Dec21.175019.16144@netcom.com>, solovay@netcom.com (Andrew M. Solovay) writes:
|> Do we know anything about Olorin's position in the Maiar
|> hierarchy? Perhaps he was another of the fire-spirits who was not
|> corrupted by Melkor.

I was just reading the Silmarillean this weekend and right at the start it
says that Olorin was the wisest of the Maiar but that nothing more will be
told of him here.
-- 

- Bill Seurer     Language and Compiler Development      IBM Rochester, MN
  Internet: BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com    America On-Line: BillSeurer@aol.com
From: carl@class.gsfc.nasa.gov (Carl F. Hostetter)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Q: 'Illustrated Encyc. of Middle Earth' available?
Date: 31 Dec 92 14:39:37 GMT
Followup-To: alt.fan.tolkien
Organization: NASA/GSFC

In article <1992Dec30.215504.18268@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>,
Michael.P.Colburn@dartmouth.edu (Michael P. Colburn) wrote:
> 
> In article <1hsj0nINNiib@access.usask.ca>
> friesend@jester.usask.ca (Darryl Friesen) writes:
> 
> >  - The illustrations are very poor (in my opinion). Many of them seem
> >     'cheaply' done (ie. like you might find in a text book; black plus
> >     one other color, little detail).  Some of the pen and ink sketches
> >     are better though.
> 
> I sorta agree here, but for different reasons.  The illustrators used
> several different mediums (lithograph, pen and ink, charcoal, etc) and
> each illustrator (there are 8) have their own styles (impressionist,
> realist, etc).  IMHO, this detracts from the reader efforts to
> 'picture' Middle Earth as one world.  The contrasting mediums and
> styles almost give one the impression there is more than one Middle
> Earth.  I think the book would have been more effective had there only
> been one or two illustrators (like the illustrator (Robin Wood??) who
> did "The People of Pern".  BTW, I don't agree that the illustrations
> were 'very poor' (true, some were very simplistic, but that doesn't
> necessarily make them bad)...IMHO, many were inappropriate for the
> reasons I stated above.
> 

Oh yeah? How about that absolutely HIDEOUS "portrait" of Tolkien?
An unidentifiably misshapen mass with eyes and ears. It is nae so
much a man, as a blancmange!

|===================================================================|
|         Carl F. Hostetter      carl@class.gsfc.nasa.gov           |
|                                                                   |
|                    Ars longa, vita brevis.                        |
|          The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.            |
|  "I wish life was not so short," he thought.  "Languages take     |
|  such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about."  |
|===================================================================|
From: mvoorhis@granite.WPI.EDU (Michael C Voorhis)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: ME maps
Date: 21 Dec 1992 19:19:31 GMT
Organization: RSUC -- Russell Street UNIX & Caffeine
NNTP-Posting-Host: granite.wpi.edu

In article <6169@naucse.cse.nau.edu> wew@naucse.cse.nau.edu (Bill Wilson) writes:
>As
>one of their authors (Greater Harad and Nazgul's Citadel), I 
>attempted to recreate a portion of Tolkien's world through a work of
>my own and since I picked an area that was outside of LoTR, I
>hoped to be able to expand Tolkien's mythos.  

So you're expanding a mythos?  What prevents people from `expanding' other
mythos, than?  Let me make an example to illustrate the weirdness of this.
Say there exists a company to expand biblical legend.

If I want to know how tough Solomon or Moses really was I can buy a product
from XYZ company and find out the facts since XYZ company is in the business
of `expanding' Biblical legend?  Sounds kind of weird, doesn't it?

Once the legendry has been written, one can only speculate... this is the
point I make.  If you claim only to speculate, that's fine!  But if you
claim to be expanding legends that are established, you're on thin ice...
no pun intended.

What you do as an author for ICE is not an expansion of middle-earth legend.
It is speculation based on existing middle earth legends.  I understand that
ICE is a game-playing company, but I don't think that they should claim to be
expanding the legends of middle earth... what they do is make games that
overlay the facts... and unfortunately from the messages that some have
posted to this group, we know that this speculation is interpreted by some
as fact.  I find that unfortunate; I have nothing against ICE's activities
otherwise...

	Mike.
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Dwarves want women (was Re: Melkor: Genetic Engineer?)
Date: 24 Dec 1992 00:52:07 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In article <BzpwuI.25I@max.physics.sunysb.edu> jlauret@sbchem.sunysb.edu (Jerome LAURET) writes:
>	Do anybody remenber about female dwarves in both Sil or LOTR ??

FWIW, the only female dwarf explicitly mentioned is Dis, sister of
Thorin and mother to Fili and Kili.  She's mentioned somewhere in the
appendices.  Unfortunately, it gives no description of her, so we are 
left with the mystery of whether female dwarves have beards...

(Speaking of which, ever notice the strange colors of the dwarves'
beards in the Hobbit?  Everything from blue to red to green, etc.
Any thoughts on this?  Or is this a remnant of the more childish
portions of the Hobbit?)


Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien