HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cortese@hepxvt.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: warfare and women
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 15 Apr 92 01:03:36 GMT

In article <10413@inews.intel.com> pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey) writes:
>In article <70170@ut-emx.uucp> amadeus@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Susan Harwood Kaczmarczik) writes:
>>Did mankind worship some form of goddess first?  Probably.  Was
>>lineage traced through the mother for many centuries?  Undoubtedly.
>>Have we gotten ourselves unbalanced as a species?  In my opinion, yes.
>>But fantasizing about how wonderful things were before, *however* they
>>were before, isn't going to change a damn thing.
>
>Most, not all, stone age cultures, (that we know about), were neither
>matralineal nor patralineal. Both sex's were balanced when it came to
>power or deities. Women were often in charge of childbearing and edible
>and medicinal plants, and men were often in charge of dance, hunting
>and scavenging for meat. But there were many exceptions, more than there
>were rules, if there were any rules at all. There were ussually allowances
>for women to live the life of men, and visa versa, except that men could
>never perform the ritual of childbirth and sex between opposites was
>required for pregnancy to occur.
>

This isn't necessarily so.  There are lots of quasi-Neolithic cultures
that even today, don't know that sex leads to children.  In a lot of
them, the function of the penis is to "agitate" or "cause movement in"
the uterus.  There are cultures that think that women are impregnated by
wandering spirits who just happen to pop up their skirts, and
mythologically, you find LOTS of examples where women and goddesses get
pregnant by eating a fly, or an almond, or a pomegranate.  There are
also a lot of folk tales in these cultures that tell the woman to eat an
apple to get pregnant.

We take for granted the sex roles of men and women today, so much so
that we can't imagine that any culture could be ignorant of them.  But
they were and are.

Read Walker's _Encyclopedia_, Miles's "_Women's History of the
World_, and Sjoo and Mor's _The Great Cosmic Mother_ for lots of info
about this.

Blessings,
Janis
From: lilleyc@cs.man.ac.uk (Chris Lilley)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Discordianism (was: "What does PAGAN mean anyway?")
Date: 7 Apr 92 20:00:07 GMT
Reply-To: lilleyc@cs.man.ac.uk (Chris Lilley)
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Manchester UK
Cc: lilley

Further to this literary discussion of Eris, might i ask why what someone
wrote about her in Greece in XXX BC is an authoritative source, and what
someone wrote about her in 19XX AD in the USA is not? After all the later
accounts add much more material and round out her character substantially;
they also suffer from fewer problems in translation and are wittier.

Or did the ancient greeks actually know her personally?

	Chris
From: cortese@hepxvt.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: A gem and mineral show in Santa Monica
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 10 Apr 92 22:09:53 GMT
Distribution: na 

There's going to be a gem and mineral show in the Santa Monica Civic
Auditorium on Saturday and Sunday.  The hours are:

SAT: 10am to 7pm.
SUN: 11am to 6pm.

I'm going on Sunday with a friend, and wanted to let you guys know
about it.

Blessings,
Janis
From: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: pagan music
Date: 16 Apr 92 18:34:51 GMT
Reply-To: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Organization: COMANDOS Project, Glesga Yoonie

There are two labels that have a lot more pagan music than every other
record company on earth put together: Folkways and Ocora.  The entire
Folkways list has recently been bought by the Smithsonian Institution,
who are reprinting it (presumably on CD, the originals were all on LP).
Ocora is a French label, with very distinctive black covers, specializing
in field recordings from the Third World.  Any competent record dealer
should be able to get any of their titles.

Between the two you can get Aboriginal myth recitations, Yakut exorcisms,
Solomon Islands funeral music, Apache peyote songs, Pygmy hunting spells,
Dahomeyan lineage praises... none of which sounds very much like New Age
music (this derives mostly from non-pagan sources, like Gregorian chant
and the trance music of the Mevlevi dervishes).  The central character of
nearly all of it is *energy* rather than hypnotic maundering.

There are quite a few recordings of the Balinese "ketjak" chant as well;
this is an animistic exorcism ritual with a tacked-on Hindu interpretation.
Nonesuch used to list one.

One thing I managed to find which will be *very* difficult to obtain
anywhere now is a set of 10" LPs of ethnomusicological field recordings by
the Romanian state recording company Electrecord, made in the early 50s.
These have an amazing range of pre-Christian ceremonial music concerning
the seasons and fertility; similar stuff turns up on other Eastern European
recordings (like the Hungarian "Christmas" tunes Makvirag do), but I've
never seen anything else that gave such a concentrated dose of it in raw
unprocessed form and with such good documentation.  A *really* good
musicology library might have it.

-- 
--  Jack Campin    room G092, Computing Science Department, Glasgow University,
17 Lilybank Gardens, Glasgow G12 8RZ, Scotland   TEL: 041 339 8855 x6854 (work)
INTERNET: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk or via nsfnet-relay.ac.uk    FAX: 041 330 4913
BANG!net: via mcsun and uknet     BITNET: via UKACRL    UUCP: jack@glasgow.uucp
From: cortese@hepxvt.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: warfare and women
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 14 Apr 92 18:01:13 GMT

In article <92105.010157IO81409@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> Ailsa N.T. Murphy <IO81409@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> writes:
>what gunnora said!  women, taken as a species, are NOT more
>peace-loving than men...  i know *I* would kill if i or my
>daughter, or others i care for, were threatened!  MANY of the
>ancient fertility goddesses were also war-goddesses.  look
>at Anath, for intance!  she was known for dancing in the knee-
>deep corpses for her enemies...  or Durga, who is a Hindu fertility
>goddess, often worshipped in the furm of dung, and a war goddess
>who is known for the slaying of demons.  Aphrodite was worshipped
>as a war goddess in one greek city that we know of, as well.
>
>since my daughter was born i am ALMOST surprised at how violent
>i am capable of becoming...
>                                          -ailsa

And wouldn't it be nice to be able to express that lioness instinct
constructively instead of having it diverted into bitchiness?

Blessings,
a woman who has perhaps an overexercised sense of bitchiness
Janis
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Are there Pagan Atheists?
From: ursulus@status.gen.nz (malcolm fletcher)
Date: Thu, 09 Apr 92 20:26:59 GMT
Organization: Z*NET International News Gateway in Auckland New Zealand

> Personally, I call myself a Militant Agnostic Pagan.
> 
> Pagan, because the mental practices and world outlook of paganism in general
> fits well.
> 
> Agnostic, because I refuse to believe in superhuman deities. I view the gods
> and goddesses of paganism as symbolic of our own unrealized potential.
> 
> Militant, because I actively fight for the rights of paganism, and, in
> particular, against Christianity, as it oppresses us here in the US.
> 
I LIKE IT!!!! as to oppresses in the US, Christianity oppresses everywhere, 
by it's very nature it seeks to oppress, you can't have an open minded 
Christian, keep up the GOOD FIGHT!

Ursulus
aka Malcolm Fletcher
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: Sacrifice
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 20:17:11 GMT

egnr76@castle.ed.ac.uk (A Kashko) writes:


>	Someone recently  gave me the idea that giving up your time
>could be regarded as a sacrifice, even if no material object was sacrificed.
>Especially if you are or feel you are short of time.

>	Comments ?

Giving of oneself is the only type of sacrifice acknowledged in my religion.
The Charge of the Goddess says: "Nor do I demand sacrifice, for I am the
Mother of all living, and my love is poured out upon the Earth."  To me,
this means that killing of something (without need) is disrespectful to the
Lady, but that giving love makes one a channel of the Lady.

              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
                               Br'anArthur

Queer, Peculiar, and Weird! :-)
From: cortese@hepxvt.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Sacrifice
Date: 14 Apr 92 17:55:05 GMT
Organization: University of California, Irvine

In article <1992Apr14.014502.15534@ulowell.ulowell.edu> rickheit@dragon (Erich Rickheit KSC) writes:
>In article <loren.39@wmkt.wharton.upenn.edu> loren@wmkt.wharton.upenn.edu (Loren Miller) writes:
>>Assuming that sacrifice is the killing or offering of living matter or a 
>>votive representation thereof, what is the reason for it?
>
>In a nutshell, the universe sacrifices itself for you. In return, you
>demonstrate your willingness to sacrifice yourself for it.
>
>The solar child willingly places himself in the role of the doomed king, so
>the world will blossom and live again. The Green Man willingly gives his
>body as fruit and grain. The Horned One is the hunted as well as the hunter,
>killing himself for himself. Odin hangs himself on the Tree, Corn Woman is
>buried to feed her grandchildren, Osiris is cut into a dozen pieces.
>
>But you don't get something for nothing. To be worthy of the gods' sacrifice
>for your life, you must be prepared to sacrifice of yourself for the gods'
>lives. You show your willingness to do so by performing sacrifices,
>returning the first fruit, giving the blood of food animals.

But (and I am not saying you're wrong -- just asking the question) it
seems like it's much more of a sacrifice for the animal involved. 

>I'm honestly concerned that this question was asked. The sacrifice is
>central to so many pagan myth cycles, so central to my understanding about
>how we are spiritually and physically bound to the earth. Are there pagan
>groups who don't have a sacrifice theme in their beliefs? How do they
>reconcile this with a connected view of the world?

I prefer to simply spend my time as well as I can, and try to find out
what I can do to contribute as much as possible to this world.  Perhaps
I then sacrifice my time or (damn it) my money -- lots more of that
since Petey decided to pull the bait-and-switch regards our fees -- to
make myself better and try to help other people make of themselves what
they think would be best for them.  

And it seems to me to be circular reasoning to say that the universe
sacrifices for us.  If the universe does give us things, then if we are
a part of the universe too, the universe gets it back when we partake.
Kind of breaking even when you loan yourself money.

And besides, I really do go for the "an it harm none" jazz.  That "none"
is mighty inclusive!

Again, this is just my opinion. 

>			yerz,
>-- 
>			Erich the hahaha Mad

Mine?

Blessings,
Janis
From: marty@world.std.com (Marty M HaleEvans)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Name this song, please.
Date: 13 Apr 92 17:17:12 GMT
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA

Sorry if someone already posted this, but the version I've always heard of
"Burning Times" is by Kenny and Tzipora. I'm not sure who originally wrote it
(I don't have the album, but it's played often on "Between the Worlds", a 
pagan radio show here in Boston), but the K & T version has the male/female
vocal mix that the original poster described. Kenny sings the verses and 
Tzipora leads some women in the "Isis, Astarte..." chant.


=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
Marty Hale-Evans            marty@world.std.com             JKRS85C on PRODIGY
"Walking to school this morning I worshipped all things. You might say that's 
warped! Did I just forget about pollution, prejudice, and how there's people in
a war?????????? Excuse me but I know that! Can I help it if right this second
I get something incredible?"     -- Maybonne
From: smayo@wang.com (Scott Mayo)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: More on the alt.pagan survey
Date: 10 Apr 92 20:46:12 GMT
Organization: Wang Labs, Lowell MA, USA

A few people have written me about the survey. I'll clarify a few
points.

1. I want people to respond whether or not they are neo-pagan, or
believe in magic, or believe in anything, really. I am trying to
see a cross-section of alt.pagan readers, not neo-pagans. Please
respond to it whether or not you think you are mainstream for this
group. (*No one* is a mainstream, typical alt.pagan reader, from what I can
see of the very initial results. I don't think any such thing exists).

I am not getting enough responses. Let's flood that mailbox.

2. Yes, I mean magick, not magic. Keep in mind that magick hasn't made
it into most dictionaries yet, and most dictionaries still define
magic to mean primarially what some of you call magick. (I'm not too
proud to hide behind a dictionary.)

3. No, I am not trying to prove that roleplaying is of the devil, thanks.

4. Yes, question 78 (cats) is indended as somewhat lighthearted.

5. Yes, I'm the same fellow that hangs out in rec.games.frp.

6. Yes, some questions are deliberately repetitive, and others are
deliberately vague. Try to answer them anyway. There is method in (some of)
my madness.

Thanks!
--
These are only my opinions.  You should hear my convictions.
smayo@wang.com
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: pciszek@isis.cs.du.edu (Paul Ciszek)
Subject: Re: Worship of the Greek gods
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 92 23:40:58 GMT

wt0b+@andrew.cmu.edu (William Henry Timmins) writes:

>	There a few flaws here. The 'out of Africa' theories that I'm familiar
>with state that the original hominids evolved in Africa, then spread to
>other continents.

Just about everyone agrees that the early ancestors of humanity first appeared
in Africa.  The origin of "anatomically modern" humans, however, is contra-
versial...

>	It is fairly apparant the human development happened on many
>continents, it simply started in Africa and went a ways there first.

It certainly seems that way to me.  However, there are those who claim that
"modern" humans emerged from Africa ~200,000 years ago and traveled to the
rest of the world from there.  I have real problems with the idea of each
newer version of humanity migrating from Africa to the same destinations
like software updates being shipped from a central distributor.  Some sites
in Asia have been continuously occupied since the day of Homo Erectus, and
there is plenty of debris scattered elsewhere.  I guess someone needs to
calculate just how mobile people would need to be to make the old world a
single gene pool.

>>This I disagree with.  Supposedly the Ns were a "cold weather adaptation"
>>of the human form.  Their faces were shaped differently than those of any
>>modern human population, and supposedly their hands were better suited
>for using
>>cruder tools without handles.  I suppose though, that if any had survived

>	I've seen a clay reconstruction (from a skeleton) of a Neanderthal.
>Looked a bit like a native Indian to me. Not really that different. The
>jaw protruded a bit more, there was a slight noticible difference in the
>forehead, and a 'Roman' nose.
>	I've heard some good evidence that the Neanderthals may have been more
>intelligent than Cro-Magnon, or present day man. At the very least, they
>were conscious and aware cultured beings (evidenced by burial and
>symbolic magic)
>	I don't know about the hand bit, maybe.

>-Me
--
Paul Ciszek, pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu | Saddam Hussein still has a job; do you?
From: treon@milton.u.washington.edu (Treon Verdery)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Warfare and women  -new stuff(?)
Date: 15 Apr 92 23:19:23 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Apr15.231923.25196
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

When I was reading people's posts on male and female aggression
I thought:  "aggression isn't war, war is something else,
perhaps organizational tendencies + aggression""

In certain timeframes,  war is a useful activity:

	War is a technology of material acquisition

	War is a social context that gives some people meaning, and other 
	people power

ok, well, it strikes me that throughout history lots of societies
have been into material gain, whether it was a place closer to the
campfire, better food, nicer jewelry, or slaves/servants to
haul the wood.

I'm under the impression that many 'primitive' societies also evolve
elaborate systems of social positioning.

Humans of both sexes reslly seem to appreciate free food and
high social position.  I suspect that the different levels
of responsibility in the biological lives of women and men
play a part in  making aquisition & prestige activities 

Basically, I think War is the microwave dinner approach to reality.
it is easy, you get what you want, it is powered by impulse, yet
at some level requires complexity.  most of all, you don't have
to do the work yourself

Women and men work together to Dominate, and Destroy, the natural
From: shava@hermes.oit.unc.edu (Shava Nerad Averett)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Me..with yet more questions...*grin*
Date: 8 Apr 92 04:29:41 GMT
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill

In article <1185@lysator.liu.se> ceci@lysator.liu.se (Ceci Henningsson) writes:
>Ailsa N.T. Murphy writes:
>>well, i have a ritual knife, which i NEVER call an athame,
>>cos i don't know how to pronounce it B)  
>
>Could someone enlighten me as to what an athame is, if it is spellt
>this way and how it is pronounced. It isn't neither in my Webster, nor
>in The Oxford Guide to the English Language.
>
>Some ideas on how to choose/not choose your athame would be welcome
>too.

Hmmm...  I have a couple of tools I use as an athame, which vary in their
contexts of use.  I was unaware that this was a particularly wiccan 
usage, but I'm not very familiar with wicca, really.  To me, the athame
(which *I* pronounce uh-THAH-may, more or less) is the ritual equiv.
of the sword, to me representing air and the intellect and a bundle
of other attributions many of which have nothing to do with the mundane
meanings of their labels anyway.

Each athame I have used has cut me, and I have never blooded one on 
purpose.  Just clumsy I guess...  Or maybe they have minds of their
own.  More likely I'm just clumsy...

My favorite athame is my swiss army knife, which doubles in my mundane
life as my keychain.  Like superman, my little pocketknife zooms into
a nearby secluded space, takes off the keys, and WOW!  Instant trasforma-
tion into a sacred object.

Mostly, I'd say choose an athame that fits your idea of a ritual imple-
ment (my ideas of such things have gotten pretty flexible over the years.
Most people want a knife that is hand-crafted and/or very pretty and/or
very high quality).  I have also known people to use non-blades as 
athames.  For example, a friend of mine uses a double terminated quartz
crystal.  Some people avoid iron in an athame, preferring a blade of
bone or flint.  Some people use full sized, steel swords.

Follow your heart!
-- 
Shava Nerad Averett				shava_averett@unc.edu
/*  all materials (c)1992, Shava Nerad Averett, and have nothing significant
    to do with the University of North Carolina, a mostly owned subsidiary 
    of the NC Legislature, a mostly owned subsidiary of the DOT.      */
From: loren@wmkt.wharton.upenn.edu (Loren Miller)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Worship of the Greek gods
Date: 7 Apr 92 14:54:28 GMT
Article-I.D.: wmkt.loren.34
Distribution: na
Organization: Wharton Marketing

In article <29E0EF42.4253@noiro.acs.uci.edu> cortese@hepxvt.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>In article <loren.29@wmkt.wharton.upenn.edu> loren@wmkt.wharton.upenn.edu (
Loren Miller) writes:>>In article <1992Apr1.184049.28268@cbnewsm.cb.att.com> 
mls@cbnewsm.cb.att.com (mike.siemon) writes:>>>Roman history from the 
assassination of the Gracchi down to>>>Octavian's consolidation of power was 
a steadily intensifying>>>and increasingly brutal civil war with short 
pauses to deal>>>with rebellious allies, slaves or provinces.
>>
>>Kind of like La Cosa Nostra, eh?
>
>No, it's not "kind of like La Cosa Nostra" any more than the Nazis were.
>The Mafia started out as an IRA-type of pact between Sicilian farmers
>who were getting screwed by the landlord types.

Whether or not the Mafia started out for worthy purposes, it soon turned 
into a rule by local bullies, with a political structure built along roman 
lines. This is actually pretty easy to demonstrate, but I don't have the 
books at work to do so.

>Bad dagos aren't Mafia any more than bad things done by ancient Irishmen
>make them ancient IRA.  Sorry to snap so hard, but I am Italian-American

I didn't accuse you or anyone else of being a Mafioso, Roman, or a 
criminal who carries a stilleto. Though I can understand that you were 
hassled for being a "vinny" (in the current philadelphia parlance) I also 
think that you're overly sensitive.
-- 
+++++++++++++++++++++++23
Loren Miller              LOREN@wmkt.wharton.upenn.edu
Shoes are the most basic prerequisite for liberty
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: hair color
Date: 13 Apr 92 15:23:05 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

gaucher@lynx.berkeley.edu writes:

>All this talk in alt.pagan about magick and hair has
>caused me to think about the old superstitions surrounding
>different hair colors, specifically those concerning
>RED hair. Can anyone tell me why red hair has received
>such negative attention in the magickal community throughout
>the ages? I have heard that there are still fishermen in
>Western Ireland who will not go fishing if they see a
>red-headed woman on the way to their boat! Where does all
>this stuff come from?!

>Lee Gaucher

Negative attention???  All the comments about red hair I have seen are about
how magical it is.  Granted, these are modern comments, by those who practice
magic.  The one exception I can think of is W.E. Butler's comment that 
red-heads are frequently catalyst's--persons who make ritual go well, but
cannot perceive anything themselves.  
This was contradictory to the stuff I have heard about Irish red-heads being
psychic.  MZB arranges Darkovan culture around this assumption!  I tend to
think of the intense Irish red-heads as children of Brigid--and I have a
long-standing attraction to them. :-)
I have been told that the genetic origin of the Irish red hair is a crossing
of Norse strawberry blondes with dark haired Irish people.  Why this would
fix psychic abilities into the bloodline, I don't know.

              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
                               Br'anArthur

Queer, Peculiar, and Weird! :-)