From: jhpb@sarto.budd-lake.nj.us (Joseph H. Buehler)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Papacy (was Re: The Lord's Table (Part 1 of 2))
Date: 21 Aug 92 04:44:40 GMT
Organization: none

In article <Aug.20.02.08.20.1992.20930@athos.rutgers.edu> wagner@spinoza.math.uh.edu (David Wagner) writes:

[quoting Melancthon]

   **Most of the holy Fathers** (such as Origen, Ambrose, Cyprian,
   Hilary, and Bede) interpret the statement "on this rock" in
   this way and not as applying to the person or superiority
   of Peter....**Hilary declares: "The Father revealed to Peter
   that he should say, `You are the Son of the living God.'
   On this rock of confession, therefore, the church is built.
   This faith is the foundation of the church."**

There are several problems here.  As it stands, the statement isn't
exactly true.  Perhaps misleading would be a more appropriate
adjective.

What the Fathers actually say is not exactly what you are saying.
There is a Catholic sense that can be given to the interpretation you
propose; this is known to the Fathers.  You wish it to exclude the
existence of the Papacy, though, and the Fathers in no wise proposed
this, or even impleid it.

The Papacy -- the See of Peter -- and the Faith are inseparable.
Wherever the Papacy is, there is the true Faith.  Whether one calls
the See of Peter the rock, or the Faith of the See of Peter, is a
matter of indifference, because of the inseparability.  The Fathers
sometimes use the one, sometimes the other.  There is a discussion of
this exact point in St. Augustine.

Regarding the Fathers and what they say, here are some quotes for the
interested (these are all roughly 3rd and 4th century AD):

Origen:

    Peter was called a Rock by the Lord, for to him is said: "Thou art
    Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church." (Commentary on
    Matthew 139)

St. Cyprian:

    There is one Baptism, and one Holy Spirit, and one Church founded
    by Christ our Lord upon Peter, as the source and principle of
    unity.  (Letter 60, to Januarius)

    For to Peter, upon whom He built the Church... (Letter 73, to Jubaian)

    Peter thus speaks, upon whom the Church was to be built, teaching
    in the name of the Church. (Letter 69)

    Peter, upon whom the Church was founded by the condescendence of
    God. (De Bono Patientiae)

St. Hilary:

    He upbraided Peter, to whom He had just handed the keys of the
    kingdom of Heaven, upon whom He was to build the Church, against
    which the gates of hell should not in any way prevail...  Peter,
    the first to confess the Son of God, the foundation of the
    Church... (Tract on Psalm 131:4)

St. Ambrose (a very famous passage):

    It is to Peter himself that He says: "You are Peter, and upon this
    rock I will build My Church."  Where Peter is, there is the
    Church.  And where the Church, no death is there, but life
    eternal.  (Commentaries on 12 of David's Psalms", 40:30)

I omit Tertullian, St. Jerome, St. Gregory of Nyssa, St.  Gregory
Nazianzen, St. Epiphanius, St. John Chrysostom, and the speech of
Philip the Roman legate at the council of Ephesus.  I think there is
good evidence that the Fathers are quite Catholic.

Scripturally, there is quite a good case for the Catholic doctrine of
the Papacy.  There are three passages most often used.

    1. Thou are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and
    the gates of Hell will not prevail against it.  And I will give
    unto thee the keys of the kingdom of Heaven, etc.

    2. Feed my sheep.

    3. Simon, simon, Satan has desired to sift you like wheat.  But I
    have prayed for you, that your faith fail not, and you, once being
    converted, convert your brethren.

These are from memory, so feel free to look them up.

#1 is probably the most famous one, and has been discussed.

#2 and #3 are less well known, perhaps.

#2 occurs after the Resurrection, where our Lord asks if Peter loves
Him.  He asks three times.  When St. Peter says that he does love Him,
our Lord responds: "Feed my sheep."

To be noted here is that there is no qualification.  He doesn't say
"feed my sheep in Rome" or some such thing.  He says just "feed my
sheep."  The inference being that He means "ALL my sheep."

Catholic interpretation of this passage is such that Catholics see in
this passage the conferral of Papal jurisdiction on Peter at this
point.  The Papal office was promised in #1, but not conferred until
#2.

#3 is a powerful one.  You have to look at the Greek to see why.
There is a difference in Greek that does not come out in English.  It
has to do with the word "you".  Let me do a little expanding:

    3. Simon, simon, Satan has desired to sift you [plural] like
    wheat.  But I   have prayed for you [singular], that your faith
    fail not, and you, once being   converted, convert your brethren.

See what Christ is saying: Satan desires to sift the Apostles like
wheat.  But our Lord has prayed for PETER.  This comes out in the
differnce in number in the word "you."  And once Peter is straightened
out, he is to straighten the rest of them out.  Note what Christ prays
for, in particular: Peter's faith.  That is exactly what the gift of
the Papacy is: an unshakeable faith.

There are numerous other points that can be made regarding Scripture
and the Papacy.  The peculiar position of Peter stands out in the
pages.  Peter is always first in all lists of the Apostles.  The other
Apostles come in no particular order.  It is Peter's boat that our
Lord preaches from.  It is Peter who says "I go a'fishing."  It is the
other Apostles who say "We are coming with you."  It is Peter who
conducts the election of Mathias.  It is Peter who preaches on
Pentecost.  He accepts the first pagan.  It is to see Peter that St.
Paul goes to Jerusalem.  Etc.