From: alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia)
Subject: Re: Are IAs close-minded ? 
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 22:37:31 GMT

In article <1992Oct7.232001.14758@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>, c150-bt@po.berkeley.edu (Manish Vij) writes:
> 
> I am basing my generalization on interaction with many II parents in the
> Bay Area, at social events, cultural events, religious events, and community-
> wide events.  I am also basing it on my analysis of the Indian culture, its
> motives and structures, and I do not think I am wrong.
> 

Meeting some parents in Bay Area, isn't enough. You should try to go to a 
conference like National Federation of Indian-American Associations
or Global Non-Resident Indian Association's conferences. These are held
annually or bi-annually.

Such conferences usually have various forums and social activities. These
are excellent occasions to meet your age group people as well.

> But can generalizations be made?  In this case I'm fairly confident in
> claiming that the Indian culture promotes such attitudes in II-in-America
> parents.

Explore further. Some of us who have been around are not so confident ...

> 
> >> If so, you are probably more tolerant and probably understand
> >> other people better than most.  Can you see why an IA kid may grow
> >> his hair long?  
> >
> >A need or desire to identify with a clique, perhaps.
> 
> Maybe because he thinks it looks good.  Maybe he just likes long hair. 
> Maybe it doesn't involve insecurity.  Ever consider that?

It is possible that he thinks it looks good and consequently likes it.
However most kids I know of or have seen don't particularly like that.
The only kids I have seen who like it are the people who somehow are 
involved in music bands etc.  Rock stars are their role models .

If that is the kind of career he is looking for, it may be okay ...

> >It is the 'fear' of wedding or getting into a committment ...
> 
> Maybe she likes not restricting herself to one specific set of people.
> 
Fine. This type of thing is good for starters who want to learn about other
cultures etc.
> >> Why IA's may like American music and dance styles?  
> >
> >A need to identify with American culture - feel part of America, feel less of
> >an 'alien'.
> 
> Maybe I love to dance.

Fine. I don't think parents usually have any problems with their kid learning
American dance or music ... unless it is too vulgar like 'dirty dancing'
or it is pursued not out of interest in dance but as an avenue to late night
'drink, drug or sex parties'.

> It is a valid generalization with a good sampling and good analysis.

That is what you would like to think. Unfortunately your sampling includes only
bay area parents ...

> >> You've observed that I'm willing to discuss cross-cultural issues.  
> >
> >But do you have an open mind towards non-American culture ?
> 
> Fairly open.
> 
> >How much do you know about, for example, your own heritage ?
> 
> A moderate amount.
> 
> >Have you ever bothered to travel to India for a visit ?
> 
> I was born and raised there until I was five.  I've visited at ages
> 8 and 16.  The last trip opened my eyes to a non-romanticized Indian
> culture.
> 
> >Have you ever expressed interest in any non-American culture ?
> 
> Yes: Latino, Spanish, Pakistani, Gujarati, Punjabi, Japanese, 
> to name a few.
> 
Fine, so you are little more aware than a 'typical' IA.

> Do you think that "hell-raiser" Manish is a coconut?

Not really.

> >Have you ever wondered that even with in America there are a multitude
> >of sub-cultures which are distinctly different ? Do you know,
> >for example, that the southern California culture is vastly different than
> >Boston culture which in turn is different than Texas culture ?
> 
> Yes, I'm aware that I'm privileged to live in liberal California.  :-)

Fine, but have you bothered to explore other states even with in USA ?
I too lived in California and I know it is more liberal w.r.t. races
etc. but there are other aspects of culture which are less emphasized
in CA - for instance, family values, education, committment, depth
of friendship etc.

> >> This is specifically because a feature of Indian culture is the
> >> conservativeness and lack of tolerance which I abhor.
> >
> >Indian culture values tolerance and freedom despite whatever you may
> >believe.  Have you ever wondered how so many religious, social, cultural
> >and moral beliefs co-exist among 850 million people in India ?
> >Sure there are occasional fights and tension, but by and large they
> >have co-existed in relative harmony considering the level of diversity.
> 
> Ram Janam Bhoomi.
> The Golden Temple.

I believe these two are 'imported issues' into India.
That is these agitations started outside India.

> The caste reservation issue.
> 
Yes, that is a problem in Indian social system however the agitations are 
usually due to political manipulations.

> Three recent examples of intolerance.  Partition riots: this is harmony?
> 
Considering 5000 years of Indian history, these incidences are like a drop
in the bucket.

Do you think USA is harmonious ? Just think about

1) LA riots of 1992

2) Segregation of blacks and whites in school busing etc until 1960's
 Discrimination, beatings etc of 'blacks'

3) Stoning, beating, harassment and anti racial slurs against Irish, Italians,
  Jews, Hispanics and now Indians  (Early 1900 -1992)

4) Slavery (1600-1850 ?)

5) Mass killing/suppression of Native Americans (American Indians) - 
(1492 - 1600 ?) 

In 500 years of American history these are some of the domestic dark sides
...

Are these examples of harmony in America ? 

> Indian culture does NOT value the individual over the family.  It has
> a muzzling, stifling effect on individual freedom in the family
> setting.

This I tend to agree with you. I have often thought and experienced
the same.

> >I agree that a lot of IA kids are rather sore with their parents.
> >But why blame parents ? Have you ever thought that this could be due to
> >the fact that the Indian culture/system they came from is vastly different
> >than the American culture/system you are growing in ?  Isn't this difference
> 
> I understand why my parents are the way they are.  I just think they could
> make a little effort to tolerate, to agree to disagree, and things would
> be a WHOLE lot easier.
> 

TALK ABOUT IT TO YOUR PARENTS. ASK THEM TO BE MORE TOLERANT, TACTICAL etc.
TELL THEM IT WILL MAKE LIFE EASIER FOR BOTH. TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR
IMPROVING YOUR FAMILY INTERACTIONS. DON'T JUST LEAVE IT ON YOUR PARENTS.

> >To devise this compromise or joint platform, BOTH, the PARENT and the
> >CHILD need to take interest in each other's culture with an open mind
> >and try to understand the dynamics and subtlities of the OTHER culture.

> Calling all open-minded II parents!

BUt call them with an open-mind, don't start abusing them and then expect
them to listen to you ... Tou know parents are human-beings too. They too get
hurt when the child is rude to them.

> >I have seen a number of postings here from IAs saying that they would rather
> >ignore IIs in dating or social interactions. How can then the IAs understand
> >the Indian culture ? From books which are ancient ? From news media,
> >which may give lopesided news ? From movies, which depict fiction and unreal
> >more than the truth ? By observing their own parents, who may not represent
> >the whole spectrum of Indian culture (but may represent only a tiny bit of it) ?
> >
> >Who is closed minded here ? Aren't IAs closed minded when they say, they
> >will not date or socialize with IIs ?
> 
> I don't say I wouldn't date or socialize with II's.  In fact, I have found
> the sweetest, coolest people among some II friends of mine.  But in my
> experience, II's have such a different world-view most of the time that
> I have to act as if I were hosting a foreign-exchange student, along with
> all the awkwardness. 

Sure it feels like that. But that is part of affirmative-action and 
socialzing. Beginning is hard and one sees rewards slowly.
Much is given to IA kids, much is expected of them.
Most of these II students are all by themselves, they live in this
complex country by their own efforts. On the contrary you can depend
on your parents etc for the basic things at least.

When I came to this country I came with 500 dollars which I took as a loan
in India. I didn't even know how to use a phone.

I relocated in this country 4 times - all by myself.
Today I manage a house, work in a very competitive corporation like AT&T,
and even support my  parents and family members to some extent.

Then I devote some of my time to community work like 'usenetting' ;-)

Sure I have been frustrated at times. I have felt rejected at times.
I have been lonely and angry at times. I have been abused at, I have been 
shouted at times.
But believe me I am where I am today by my own efforts. No one helped 
me ...I live in this country by myself - all my family members and 
relatives live back in INdia - they have never ventured here.

It would have been nice if I had met some some friendly native people. It 
would have been nice had some native people showed sympathetic, friendly 
welcoming gestures. Some of those who were friendly, I have appreciated to 
date.  Most of these friendly people were IIs like me, a few were native
(usually white) americans.  It would have been nice if some of them were IAs.

>  This is compounded even more because I am not at
> ease with my identity enough to ignore the fact that II's look down upon
> some of my American attitudes.

Part of this identity problem will go away as you meet likes of you.
If they look down upon your American attitudes, does it mean that you
have to look down upon them ? You can prove that you are superior
by ignoring their bickerings and concentrating on mutually constructive
activities.

> Manish

Enough of patronizing for the day :-)

Alok