From: abde@troi.cc.rochester.edu (Tamer A. Abdelgawad)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re:  What is  H a m a s  ??
Summary: Forget the phantom, we're talking Hanibal 'the canibal' Lechter ;-)
Date: 2 Jan 93 12:28:45 GMT
Organization: University of Rochester (Rochester, NY)

In article <1i1m2tINNqh8@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah) writes:
>

>the thing about your 'ad homenim' is not clear to me. don't know
>what your talking about.  put it in english.
>

While 'ad hominem' is not English, it can be found in any respectable
English dictionary.  Do your homework :-)

>>I cannot quote you that "kidnapping your enemy and killing him is wrong"
>>any more than I can quote you that killing an innocent person *with* *a*
>>*shotgun* is wrong.  The Quran tells us that murder is wrong, and that is
>>exactly what I'm accusing Hamas (or at least those members who committed
>>the killing) of: murder.
>
>If you cannot quote it? you don't have islamic evidence.  If the Quran
>tells us this kind of  murder is wrong..  Tell me where..  Otherwise, you're
>a  l i e r and don't know what you're talking about.
>

I will once more give you the benefit of the doubt.  You missed my point.
Can you quote me anything from the Quran or Hadith that says that killing
a baby (to make the point clear) *with* *a* *gun* is wrong? (FYI, there
are *no* references to *guns* in the Quran or Hadith, therefore you would
never be able to give me a quote that says that "this kind of murder is 
wrong", baby murder with a gun, that is.)  Having said that, are you
denying that the Quran said that murder is wrong?  Be careful Hamza!

>Here is my proof:
>If you got enough of the ones in AlBaqarah, here is a new one:
>
>Altawbah
>{
>5. So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the
>unbeleivers wherever you find them, and take them captives and
>besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if
>they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their
>way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
>}
>If these are instructions were given to muslims at the time of
>the prophet, can't we see if they were not islamic, quran would
>have not said them?
>

Incidentally, you have provided me with proof that *you* quote out
oF context and misrepresent Islam:

1)  The verse refers to 'Mushrekeen', which is translated above as
    'unbelievers'.  Judaism is a monotheistic religion, so the verse
    does not strictly apply to them (you can look up 'Mushrekeen' in
    an Arabic dictionary, or are you alergic to them ;-) ).  For 
    non-Arabic speakers, 'Mushrekeen' means those who believe in more
    than one God (e.g. the Gaheleya Arabs).

2)  The verse is *clearly* intended for a specific context, and is not
    an injunction to kill 'Mushrekeen' in any other time or place.  If
    that were not true, answer me this:
   
    a.  How come muslims did not kill all the christians in Egypt in the
        time of Amr Ibn El'aas?  After all, christians believe in the
        trinity: father, son, and holy ghost.  I am assuming Copts believe
        the same.  If not, take your pick of any other country which was
        invaded by muslim armies.

    b.  How come you, Hamza Salah, are not following your own 
        interpretation of the verse?  How come your are not stalking your
        fellow nonmuslim students and professors on campus, kidnapping
        them, and killing them if they don't convert?  Even if this verse
        only applies to Israelis (I wonder what kind of linguistic stunt
        you'd have to pull to prove that!), I'm sure you can find a few
        Israeli students.  Then again, you seem to prefer to talk about
        Jews in general, and I'm sure you have quite a few jewish 
        professors :-)
  
    (BTW, question (b) is a good example of the 'ad hominem' fallacy.
     Sorry, but I couldn't resist ;-) )

3)  The verse does not say 'take them hostage, and then kill them'.  That
    is what you were trying to prove, remember?

>>It should be clear that we are all expressing opinions.  If you think that
>>including quotes from the Quran in your postings makes your postings *the*
>>truth, then you are, to say the least, naive.  For example, if I am writing
>>an article on diabetes which prescribes honey as a cure, and I quote from
>>El Na'hl (68-69), then my post is *still* wrong.  Context and interpretation
>>matter.
>
>FIrst the verse about Na'hl is irrelevant.  it says "wa fieh shfaaon linas."
>If somebody has diabetes, honey is not the cure for him.  Honey is
>good for some other diseases.  If you know arabic language good enough,
>and it seems you don't, "fieh shafaaon" is totally different from
>"fieh kul shfaa" or "fieh Al shfaa".  "fieh shfaa" menas only for some
>but not for all.  Understand!  Don't make fun of quran by giving stupid
>examples like this.  So mr. gentlmen, if you don't understand what the
>quote says and you misquote it, it doesn't show what you say is true
>rather it shows what you say is foolish.
>

Reread what I wrote carefully and you'll find that:

1)  I am *not* making fun of the Quran.

2)  *Your* paragraph is exactly what I'm trying to say:  context and
    interpretation matter.

>
>>Don't you *acknowledge* that you have a few weeks' holiday from classes 
>>and *celebrate* the fact?  Or do you hang out in empty classrooms, 
>>lamenting the absence of your professors and fellow students?
>
>If christams and newyear just happen to be in school break, this
>doesn't mean i *celebrate* them. 
>

And who asked you to celebrate christmas and new year's?  I simply wished
you happy holidays! 

Tamer Abdelgawad
Xref: sparky soc.culture.arabic:5976 talk.politics.mideast:24200