HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cramer@optilink.com (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Open Carry was Re: Georgia - Land of Paradise for Progunners???
Date: 31 Jul 92 00:24:39 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA


In article <1992Jul29.133708.14218@jpl-devvax.jpl.nasa.gov>, leem@jpl-devvax.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Lee Mellinger) writes:
# In article <m0mD3K3-0000hIC@crash.cts.com> jca@crash.cts.com (John C. Archambeau) writes:
# :As for open carry, there are many open carry states in the US.  Whether
# :or not you see it is dependant upon whether or not the residents of the
# :locale choose the exercise that right or not.  
# :I did know before hand that Nevada is an open carry state, but it's
# :still strange to me people carrying openly because I was born and raised
# :in the People's Republik of Kalifornia.
# : ** INTERNET: jca@thewall.cts.com        |
# 
# If you were born and raised in California, then you should have known
# that until a year ago January, California was an open carry state as
# well as Nevada.
# |Lee F. Mellinger                 Caltech/Jet Propulsion Laboratory - NASA

The California law prohibiting open carry of loaded firearms in cities
was adopted in 1967.  Open carry in unincorporated areas was still
legal (unless a county ordinance prohibited it), last time I checked, 
though I would discourage trying it -- the hassles aren't worth it.

I wasn't aware that any law has recently been changed in this area.
-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
"Well, maybe the Holocaust was right *for that culture*." -- a moral relativist
with whom I work.
From: ce0o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Clifford Andrew Erickson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Laser sight for sale
Date: 24 Jul 92 15:36:46 GMT

A friend has a laser site that he wants to sell.  He is going off to
medical school and needs to raise some cash.  It is in near perfect
condition and is less than one year old.  It will fit any Beretta model
92.  It will NOT fit a Taurus (the trigger guard is a bit wider).

Laser Devices model BA-2
$200 OBO

Please respond to this account.
Thanks;
Cliff Erickson
ce0o@andrew.cmu.edu
From: cash@convex.com (Peter Cash)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Full auto vs. semi
Date: 27 Jul 92 21:37:03 GMT
Organization: The Instrumentality

In article <70427@apple.Apple.COM> browne@Apple.COM (Sean Browne) writes:
...
#Well, from my brief experience with machine guns,
#(the Knob Creek show in April) I think I would
#be much better defended with my mossberg 590.

Correct--you're always best defended with a weapon that you know and like.

...  
#backstop, give me a little MP5, Mac 10, or Uzi. Outside 
#at a distance, aimed semi-auto fire is much better.

I think that the chief advantage of full auto fire isn't that you can
hit more targets faster (except in cases of human wave attacks against
machine gun emplacements), but because it encourages the other side to keep
their heads down. If their heads are down, they can't see, and if they
can't see, they can't shoot you. They also can't see what you're doing
(like flanking them). 

Thus, if you're dealing with intruders in your home, full auto fire is a
liability that gives no clear advantage. You don't stand a significantly
better chance of hitting the intruders, and you're going to spray bullets
that may find unintended targets. Semi-auto fire is far better. The
same goes for undisciplined marauders in the streets--you may find it
necessarily to shoot to stop certain individuals, but you don't want to
indiscriminately spray the neighborhood, and hit bystanders or people
inside their homes.

The only time I'd wish for full auto capability would be if I were in a
military action--firing on opponents who are behind cover, or who are
advancing on my position. Note that the objective of such fire is to
discourage, impede, and disorganize--not necessarily to kill individuals.


-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
             |      Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist.     |
Peter Cash   |       (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein)      |cash@convex.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: revolver handling
Date: 30 Jul 92 14:38:18 GMT
Organization: Computing Center, North Carolina State University

In article <64559@hydra.gatech.EDU> gus@prism.gatech.edu (gus Baird) writes:
#In article <1992Jul28.143520.23073@chpc.utexas.edu> lizard@hermes.chpc.utexas.edu (Tom Linsley) writes:
# >In article <1992Jul27.172938.3975@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU>, tjohnson@xenon.stanford.edu (Ted C. Johnson) writes:
#   ...
# >One hates even to consider such things, but cartridges can discharge as
# >a result of the heat, and if a round is in the chamber under the hammer,
# >it can fire through the barrel just as if the trigger had been pulled.
# >The explosion of rounds not in line with the barrel will merely blow the
#      ^^^^^^^^^  ??                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
# >gun apart, posing relatively little risk to firefighters and neighbours.
#  ^^^^^^^^^  ??
#
#Whatever gave you this idea?  Why should they "blow the gun apart", for
#heaven's sake?  They'll just *shoot*, but out the chamber mouth instead
#of into the barrel, and thus with considerably less "muzzle" velocity.

  Inspection of the cylinder of a S&W 686 shows that of the 5 chambers
in the cylinder which aren't in line with the barrel, that the two
closest to the barrel are partly blocked by the frame, the two further
away from the barrel are completly unblocked, and the bottom one
is completely blocked.

  Even the blocked one is not likely to blow apart the gun since,
as long as the bullet has left the case, there is plenty of vent room.

--henry schaffer  n c state univ
From: dingbat@cix.compulink.co.uk (Codesmiths)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: British gun laws circa 1960
Date: 30 Jul 92 14:37:58 GMT



# There ARE British handgun owners -- the permits are simply ferociously
# difficult to get these days.


This is a very simple view of the situation. One of the major gripes
amongst UK shooters is not over the regulations themselves, but over
the freedom that each Chief Constable has in interpreting them (and
our's aren't elected). There is very little consistency between
police regions, and far too much depends on the personal whim of a
Chief Constable.

Nowhere is it easy to get a handgun FAC.

          Andy Dingley    dingbat@cix.compulink.co.uk
From: erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Sig P220 vs. Glock 21
Date: 23 Jul 92 18:36:38 GMT


James P. Callison writes:
#of the SIG...the Glock, fine a pistol as it is (yes, I said it was a fine
#pistol) just cannot compare to the ergonomics of the SIG. It also can't

You forgot to add "IMHO" on that one. IMHO the Glock is far superior
ergonomically to any of the current wondernines; ergonomics including
not only the shape of the grip frame but also the consistency of
operation from first shot to last and the absence of extraneous controls.

That being said, I do like the SIG's decocker better than conventional
DA safeties.


Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
Protect the Second Amendment - boycott Ruger products
From: dbetz@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Drew Betz)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Ricochets (was: Shooting in Dumps)
Date: 28 Jul 92 20:38:35 GMT
Organization: SigSauer Fan Club

In article <9207280457.AA14473@hpfcso.HP.COM> post@hpfcso.fc.hp.com (David Post) writes:
#My goodness!  What airport was that?  I accidently went through the
#detectors at the Denver airport with several fired 9mm cases.  The guy first

I recently took a trip and I always take my keys out of my pockets
(I seem to have a real pile of keys for some reason).  Anyhow, it
turns out that I've got a 9mm JHP bullet keychain.  Its an inert
9mm round where the primer's been removed and a chain is attached
so you can carry it on your keychain.  I completely forgot about it
until I got to the security point, and then I figured I was going
to have to explain.  But they ran it through the x-ray machine and
didn't say anything.

Drew
--
drew betz : wj8k : dbetz@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu   
"Our campaign is the opposite of 'competence.'"
- Clinton aide Eli Segal, quoted in the 7/22/92 _Wall Street Journal_
From: brian@pdx.csd.mot.com (Brian Vandewettering)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Best defense: Machine gun or shotgun?
Date: 22 Jul 92 20:33:43 GMT
Organization: Motorola CSD, Beaverton, OR


In article <vbcms!a.messina@netcom.com> messina@netcom.com (Tony Porczyk) writes:
#I would go for the UZI anytime.
#

In his book, "To Ride, Shoot Straight and Speak the Truth", Jeff Cooper
tells a story about a couple of body guards armed with submachine guns
who visited the Gunsight facility.

It seems their boss was bragging up how good these guys were, so Mr Cooper
decided to put them up against one of his graduates in an informal 
"clear the table" competition.  His student, using a .45 auto, cleared the 
table in a few seconds with no misses.  The guy with the sub-gun cleared only 
one target and nicked another before emptying his weapon.

Choose between a 12 gauge and an UZI?  Gimme the 12 gauge and give the
9mm to the goblins.  :-)

#t.

brian@pdx.csd.mot.com

-- 
"It cannot be presumed that any clause in the Constitution is intended to
be without effect..."

- Chief Justice John Marshall, Marbury v. Madison, 1803
From: acw@sbmsg1.UUCP (Alvin White)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Georgia - Land of Paradise for Progunners???
Date: 30 Jul 92 14:39:19 GMT
Organization: Southern Bell - MSG  Atlanta, Ga

In article <1992Jul27.013407.26236@massey.ac.nz> C.T.Teo@massey.ac.nz (C.T. Teo) writes:
#Re: Georgia - Land of Paradise for Pro-gunners???
#
#carrying firearms in the open, it was said that the crime rates are
#comparatively low and that (listen to this) it is MANDATORY for household
#to possess firearm(s)!!! It this true???
#
#GEORGIA here I come...........
#

No this is not true.  There is a small town, Kennesaw, just outside
Atlanta, that does have a law requiring housholds to own a gun. There
are of course exceptions (religious beliefs, physically impaired,...)
that exempt you from this law.  It was passed just after the law in
Morton Grove, Ill. was passed banning handguns (that's the way it
was presented by the media so corrections are welcome but no flames 
please if this is wrong) as a sort of protest.  The gun laws here
in Georgia are fairly non-restrictive.  I have a CCW permit and didn't
have to jump through a lot of hoops to get it.  There are some counties
that have waiting periods but if you have a CCW you are exempt.

Hey, come on to Georgia!!!  We shoot a lot of IPSC in the Southeast
USA.

Alvin White
From: jrtyner@eos.ncsu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Combat Experience w/.45 ACP
Date: 27 Jul 92 13:53:05 GMT

The title of the book is "Marine Sniper".  I've forgotten the publisher.
Had the book several years ago, but loaned it out and it was never returned.
Many of my fellow members of the Cherry Point Rifle and Pistol Club knew
Hathcock quite well from his service time at MCAS Cherry Point and his shooting 
for the USMC team.  When I left Cherry Point a few years ago, Hathcock's son
was stationed there and was shooting for the station team.  Wasn't quite as 
good as his father though.  Early in the book, Hathcock is using a Browning
.50 machine gun, firing single shot, for 1500 -2000 yard shots at VC arms 
smugglers passing on a road.  Get the book if you can find it.

Good luck!
John
From: bbx!bbxrbk!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Russ Kepler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Long Range Handgun Ballistics
Date: 30 Jul 92 14:37:38 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization

In article <9207241908.aa06399@claudius.pica.army.mil> erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID) writes:
#So I didn't get the answer I was hoping to get; the one I got was more
#interesting. And I now have firing tables in case the 200 and 300 m
#highpower ranges are empty when the pistol range is full :)

It's a bit embarassing to admit this (and misspell at the same time)
but after I've shot out my 25 yard pistol target I'll frequently plink
at the 300 yard gong.  I have pretty good luck with .357, none at all
with .38 and occasional luck with 9mm and none with .45.  I don't have
a lot of data with .45 yet - but I used to be able to hit the gong
(about 24" by 30") a couple of times in 10 rounds with my Glock 19 and
a rest.  I haven't seriously tried with my 17 or 226 (yet).

-- 
.signature: not found.  Create?
From: med.unc.edu!rslugg@mcnc.org (Robert Slugg)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Info on MEC prog shotshell reloaders?
Date: 30 Jul 92 14:38:57 GMT
Organization: UNC-CH School of Medicine

A full length resize is necessary for use in an autoloader to ensure
proper feeding or if you have two shotguns and want to fire the same
shells in both of them.  If you have one gun, or keep shells for one
seggregated from another gun, a 650 is fine.  One must also consider than
the range is a good source of once-fired hulls, so those must be resized
for your gun, or else you are limited to using only those shells
originally fired in your gun.

The grabber comes with a few bushings and a 1 1/8 shotbar.  For larger
loads one can add shot to the hull from a scale to get larger loads rather
than investing in shotbars, or one can buy an adjustable bar.  Mine has
been a joy to use and I'm now shooting 3X what I planned when I bought it.
A good friend of mine has 4 grabbers in 12, 20, 28, and 410, and figures
the 12 and 20 have 100K apiece with no failures.  I loaded my first box in
4 minutes, and now can load and box 100 shells in 15 minutes, so timewise
it has already paid for itself.  The real cost of a progressive is in the
amount of ammo one shoots because it is so fast, not in the machine
itself.

Bob
From: callison@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu (James P. Callison)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Ricochets
Date: 31 Jul 92 00:24:41 GMT
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA

In article <9207262133.AA01515@gtephx.com> forda@gtephx.UUCP (Andrew Ford @ AGCS, Phoenix, Arizona) writes:
#
#(I may be wrong here, but I'm sure someone will correct me if I am.)

Yep. :-)

#Most keys are made of aluminum or an alloy.  These materials would not
#do the shooter's hand justice if they were used in a gun.

I beg your pardon?

#I believe the walk-through detectors use magnetic fields: metals which
#can be magnatized will be detected whereas aluminums will not.  (Note
#that keyrings are usually made of steel and large ones may set off the
#detector.)

Well, since titanium is a non-magnetic metal; titanium is used in artificial
joints; and artificial joints have been known to set off metal detectors,
I'd have to conclude that you are mistaken. (BTW- they give people with
artificial joints/pins/etc cards which explain the situation (at least
the _good_ doctors do :-), so all you guys (read "numbskulls" :-) out
there with BBs lodged in your body might want to check this out with a 
doctor. Couldn't hurt! :-)
(Personally, I preferred to use maize over BBs. They stung like hell,
but didn't penetrate.)
					James

James P. Callison       Microcomputer Coordinator        OU Law Library 
Callison@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu   /\        Callison@uokmax.ecn.uoknor
	constellation!biglaw!callison@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu
DISCLAIMER: I'm not an engineer, but I play one at work...
	Lawyers get you out'n the kind of trouble you'd never get in 
		if there was no lawyers. -- Cowboy logic
From: burge@qdeck.com (Bill Burge)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Sig P220 vs. Glock 21
Date: 24 Jul 92 03:18:49 GMT
Organization: Quarterdeck Office Systems, Santa Monica CA

In article <18974@smoke.brl.mil> gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) writes:
#
#In article <fP4ayK2@quack.sac.ca.us> bweaver@quack.sac.ca.us (Brian Weaver) writes:
##  Well, since the Glock is never cocked until you pull the trigger, 
##  it does not need a decocker lever. This is fine by me since I like
##  simplicity and reliability.
#
#I like Glocks, but you have to recognize that they can be a pain, since once
#a round is chambered you have to either shoot it or else pull the magazine
#and rack the slide to "safe" the weapon against a simple trigger pull.
#For some, this is an important negative characteristic of the design.
#(Doesn't matter for my application, though.)
#

Sounds like a FEATURE to ME.  (Consider loosing the "simple".)

Bill
From: gus@prism.gatech.edu (gus Baird)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: rebore
Date: 31 Jul 92 12:58:14 GMT
Organization: College of Computing, Georgia Institute of Technology


In article <1992Jul29.170909.25727@cbfsb.cb.att.com> benj@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (ben.e.jones) writes:
 >
 >      fast question....having big discussion on what would
 >      be the cost to have a smith rebore a 38 s/w cylinder
 >      to a 38 sp ....Many Thanks for any info on even ball
 >      park figures....
 >........BJ
 
forget it. i had a 38sw that'd been bored out to 38spl,
and wish i hadn't.
the older cartridge case has a greater diameter and you end
up with swelled cases, even some split cases at times.
also, i'd not trust the cylinder to
appreciate the higher pressures it might encounter in even
factory 38spl ammunition, especially +p.  just use the
38sw cartridge.  cheap surplus is available, like from
atlanta discount ammo, and you can also get reloading dies.

-- 
gus Baird, College of Computing
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332
uucp: ...!{allegra,amd,hplabs,seismo,ut-ngp}!gatech!prism!gus
ARPA: gus@cc.gatech.edu
From: rane+@CS.CMU.EDU (Aaron Hughes)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Springfield P9 Factory Comp Pistol
Date: 21 Jul 92 12:26:43 GMT
Organization: Carnegie Mellon University

In article <1992Jul21.020206.10148@massey.ac.nz>, C.T.Teo@massey.ac.nz (C.T. Teo) writes:
|> Re: Springfield P9 Factory Comp Pistol
|> 
|> Both 9mm para and 40 S&W calibers are available for the above model from
|> Springfield Armory. Before getting myself more in debt by getting one, I would
|> like to know whether getting a 9mm para can be easily converted to 40 S&W or
|> vice versa by changing barrel and magazine. Or is there more to this?
|> 
|> Thanks.
|> 
|> C.T.Teo@massey.ac.nz
|> Massey University
|> New Zealand
|> 

I don't know about the SA pistols (weren't people having problems
with the quality of those?) but European American Armory is selling
their "Witness" pistol (same thing as the P9) with the .40 <-> 9mm
conversion - I've seen adds for it so I know that it actually exists.

Aaron



-- 
Aaron Hughes        DoD#0482   		The Freedom Junkie	
rane+@pulsar.fac.cs.cmu.edu		Bad cop. No donut.
From: forda@gtephx.UUCP (Andrew Ford @ AGCS, Phoenix, Arizona)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Best defense: Machine gun or shotgun?
Date: 23 Jul 92 14:30:13 GMT
Organization: gte

In article <1992Jul21.083005.2443@email.tuwien.ac.at>, holger@vmars.tuwien.ac.at (Holger Reusch (Dipl. ALF in spe)) writes:
# In <1992Jul20.154143.29684@btree.uucp> btree!hale@UCSD.EDU (Bob Hale) writes:
# #The basic discussion started with the premise that you would only have
# #*one* gun.  This is equivalent to putting all your eggs in one basket;
# #it's much better to spread the risk and to have several tools that each
# #perform a specific task fairly well rather than one tool which performs
# #all tasks in a mediocre to poor fashion.
# 
# We had much of the same discussion some weeks ago in the aftermath of
# the LA riots.  While it might be interesting from a theoretical and
# purely technical point of view to have a whole arsenal of small arms 
# at your disposal, it's utterly unpractical.
# 
# Just imagine yourself confronted by a gang of attacking thugs.  So you
# reason:  "They're 50 m away, so I have to use the rifle.  Should I use
# the 30-06 or the .308?  They're coming nearer, I'd better switch to
# the shotgun.  Now where are the slugs?  Now they are 20 m away.  Goodie,
# I can change to #4 buckshot.  What, still coming?  Go eat Uzi fodder,
# scum! [cont ad nauseam vel exitus]"
# 
# I'm exaggerating, but the bottom line is that you are better off with
# a by all standards "mediocre" weapon *and* good tactics and proficiency
# with your weapon than by the biggest arsenal of "specific tools".
# You can't be well trained with all of them and it's strategically
# inopportune to rely on a complex selecion process in a stess situation.
# It's just not practical.
# 

Great, so what happens if your one weapons jams?  

In my home, I'd want at least 4 or 5 weapons including short shotgun, 
a good medium to large game rifle, a high capacity .22 rifle, several
handguns, and, if possible, a sub-machine gun.  

If I had to leave, I'd want to have two handguns on me (preferably a
high capacity auto and a revolver) and a shotgun.  (Short range
defense only -- if I'm out and about I'll run first / fight as
a last resort: if I'm home, I'll fight ASAP [I'm talking riots and/or
general anarchy here]).



-- 
"25 States allow anyone to buy a gun, strap it on, and walk down the street with
no permit of any kind: some say it's crazy.  However, 4 out of 5 US murders are 
committed in the other half of the country: so who is crazy?"   -  Andrew Ford
gtephx!forda@enuucp.eas.asu.edu  OR  !uunet!samsung!romed!enuucp!gtephx!forda
From: m0102@tnc.UUCP (FRANK NEY)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: grab-and-run
Date: 30 Jul 92 14:39:16 GMT
Organization: The Next Challenge, Fairfax, Va.



Ditto VA and DC, where rental cars all have license places beginning
with 'R.'  Really obvious.  Unfortunately this also applies to
long-term leases as well, at least in Virginia, so anyone considering
a lease rather than purchase keep in mind that you *will* be targeted.

Frank Ney N4ZHG EMT-P  LPVa NRA ILA GOA CCRTKBA "M-O-U-S-E"
Commandant and Acting President, Northern Virginia Free Militia
Send e-mail for an application and more information
----------------------------------------------------------------
"Whether the authorities be invaders or merely local tyrants, the 
effect of such [gun] laws is to place the individual at the mercy of 
the state, unable to resist."
       - Robert Heinlein, in a 1949 letter concerning "Red Planet"
-- 
The Next Challenge - Public Access Unix in Northern Va. - Washington D.C.
703-803-0391 To log in for trial and account info.
From: ami@leland.Stanford.EDU (Amitava Biswas)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Laser range finder
Date: 27 Jul 92 13:53:26 GMT
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA


Hello, I'm new to this group so please excuse my ignorance. I'm looking for
information (or where to find information) on a laser range finder for 
archery. I know this is not really gun-related, but I thought this readership
might be able to help me out - sorry if it's too off-topic.

		[MODERATOR:  Looks okay to me...  actually, I haven't
		 seen anything like this for archers, and it sounds like
		 an interesting engineering project to try and adapt a
		 mount.   Sure would help in *practice* too, so one 
		 could study one's follow through... well, I distract... ]

I'd like to find out what sorts of devices exist if any that enable a
marksman(woman) to measure distace to target, short of actually getting a 
ruler out. Are there laser devices that do this? Can you tell me what their
accuracy is, and what sorts of ranges they can measure (eg 110-300 yds?).
Who makes them, can they be used to measure distances to a moving target
(eg deer), can they measure range in real time, are they reflectable, etc.
Are they available with a digital readout?

Finally, are such devices usually gun-mounted, or handheld, or in any case
do you think it would be possible to modify one for mounting on a compound
bow?

I'll follow the group for a few weeks, so feel free to reply here, but I
would prefer it if you would respond directly to me at

	ami@leland.stanford.edu

Thanks in advance!

Ami