From: mjones@fenway.aix.kingston.ibm.com (Mike Jones)
Subject: Re: Passing out Condoms (Was Re: Better Off Than Four Years Ago NOT)
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 92 20:05:52 GMT
Reply-To: mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com
Organization: IBM Corp. Kingston NY

In article <1992Aug28.201932.4100@den.mmc.com> sims@possum.den.mmc.com (John Sims) writes:
|neeri@iis.ethz.ch (Matthias Neeracher) writes:
|
|>In article <1992Aug26.191428.24590@den.mmc.com> sims@possum.den.mmc.com (John Sims) writes:
|>>nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson) writes:
|>>
|>>>In article <1992Aug26.045511.19175@athena.mit.edu> jfed@athena.mit.edu (Jude G Federspiel) writes:
|>>> The schools are a poor excuse for a father and a mother but in
|>>> the absence of the real thing what does Federspiel suggest?  
|>>You've hit the nail on the head.  There isn't a good substitute.  But
|>>its very unpopular to advocate "traditional family values", isn't it?
|>This is extremely irrelevant, as "traditional family values", at least
|>according to the people who are proclaiming them the loudest, explicitely
|>exclude giving your children a clear, consistent, and realistic message about
|>sex, but cling to the ideal of innocent virgins (of both genders) learning
|>everything they ever need to know about sex in the first 15 minutes of their
|>wedding night.
|So, just when did you become omniscient?  You should have your crystal
|ball examined, because it isn't seeing all things clearly.  
|Maybe your stereotyping respresents the way you have been raised, 
|but it doesn't represent the way I was raised, or the way I am raising 
|my children.  

Pardon? I saw no claims to omniscience, nor any stereotyping here. All
Peter's views as presented in this excerpt can be clearly supported just by
watching the Republican convention and surrounding hoopla. Nor did he say
anything that would justify that nasty little swipe at "the way you have
been raised." Now that we've established the level of discourse, here....
 
|>>Maybe what we need to be doing as a society is rebuilding the
|>>institutions which encourage families rather than tearing them apart.
|>Who is tearing families apart?
|Hmm. Well, let's see, where to start?  An example, pointed out recently
|could be Hillary Clinton, likening marriage to slavery, and stating that
|children should have the right to divorce their parents.  Or how about a
|judicial system which says that parents have absolutely no right to be
|informed when their daughter is getting an abortion?  Or how about the
|folks who tell my wife that she isn't fulfilled as a woman because she
|has chosen to stay at home to raise our children?  Along that line, how
|about the folks who claim that raising the children is better left to
|strangers in a government sponsored day-care center, rather than trying
|to enable women to stay at home?  Or how about good ole' Pat 
|Schroeder, who loves to proclaim family values while
|simultaneously saying that the traditional family is irrelevant?  
|Of course, those things couldn't possibly have a negative impact on
|family life, now could they?  Get a clue...

Bzzzt. Willful ignorance of known fact. You get no Scooby snack. 
1. Hillary Clinton *did not* liken marriage to slavery. She listed them both
as examples of institutions which have, historically, been used to suppress
the rights of a category of people. Historically, she is absolutely correct.
2. The judicial system doesn't say anything (in the sense you're sneakily
implying) about parents having particular rights if their children have
abortions. They interpret the laws as passed by Congress (and usually as
signed by the President). 
3. You do have one reasonable point hidden in there. People who disparage a
woman's choice to stay home and raise a family are just as wrong as those
who disparage her choice to have a career instead (or also).
4. Most people who are trying to arrange better government-sponsored day
care are reacting to the reality that more and more mothers have to work to
provide their families with the necessities of life (and no, I'm *not*
talking about second new cars or vacation homes here).
5. Don't suppose you have a source for the Pat Schroeder statement you toss
about there? I didn't think so.

Look, if you hurry you can probably make it to the K-Mart before the blue
light special on clues is over. We'll wait.

   Mike Jones  |  AIX/ESA Development  |  mjones@donald.aix.kingston.ibm.com

Democracy is the recurrent suspicion that more than half of the people are
right more than half of the time.
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