From: buzz@apple.com. (Steve Bollinger)
Newsgroups: rec.games.pinball
Subject: Re: Jordan Pinball
Date: 9 Nov 92 20:14:02 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d12
X-Xxdate: Mon, 9 Nov 92 20:15:10 GMT
X-Xxmessage-Id: <A72406CE3B013847@pyd.apple.com>

I waited a while before responding to these posts because it was apparent
I was a little too hasty in posting the first one.

>>Other Conclusion: Data East has stooped to new lows in their worship of
>>money
>>and their game design. Those who worried about all that time they would
>>waste on a two-off pin underestimated Data East's ability to skimp. DE
is
>>truly the evilest force in existence.
<Note: maybe I exaggerated a little>
>
>The evilest force in existence?  Hey buddy, get a life.  To set the
record
>straight Data East Pinball created a limited number of Micheal Jordan
machines
>based on the LW3 platform.  The sound and speech (by Brian Schmidt) as
well as
>art and display work was all done by Data East engineering employees
after
>normal business hours.  Many engineers spent an additional 8 hours a day
>creating this game.  It was created for the sole purpose of raising
charity for
>the Michael Jordan foundation.  Every year Data East donates dozens of
games to
>charities such as the Starlight or Make a Wish Foundation.  To help the
>Jordan Foundation raise more then the normal 3 to 5 thousand dollars a
game
>can raise, we did a custom Jordan pinball.  All of the Data East vendors
>donated the parts and time.  At the charity event the games raised
$26,500
>each.  Data East donated a total of 3 games.  The sale of this game
>accounted for almost 1/3 of the money rasied for the charities
fundraiser.

Yeah? I didn't see a note on this machine saying this. And as I said in
my post it was CONSTANTLY busy so I couldn't even see the credits on
the dot matrix display. I guess I should have been clairvoyant.

>I don't know of any other pinball company that goes to these extremes for
>charity.  As for your Data East BASHING, if you think you can do better
>games then us then I invite you to start a pinball company like we did in
>1986.

I think you can do better games than you currently do. I didn't say I
could. But.. I can play basketball better than Michael Jordan ;)

>As William Shatner said, "GET A LIFE MAN", it's just a pinball machine.
>
>p.s. You can still play a new Data East pinball for 50/25/25.
Yeah. And don't think I don't appreciate it. When Star Wars was kicking
my butt all last Saturday, I probably saved a dollar or two. I swear that
Williams decision to go to 50c has lost them money around here. All the
time I see two people come up and play a 50/25/25. They put in a dollar,
each play a game and then put in another dollar so they can have an even
number of credits. with 50c they would probably just leave after putting
in a dollar.

In article <Bx61Jv.6LE@chinet.chi.il.us> brian schmidt,
emuly@chinet.chi.il.us writes:
>In article <1992Nov1.213227.22990@gallant.apple.com> buzz@apple.com.
(Steve 
>Bollinger) writes:
>
>>sound differences omitted because the sound is so annoying on this game
I
>>couldn't listen to it in detail. Backglass is vastly different, but same
>...>
>>Other Conclusion: Data East has stooped to new lows in their worship of
>>money
>>and their game design. Those who worried about all that time they would
>>waste on a two-off pin underestimated Data East's ability to skimp. DE
is
>>truly the evilest force in existence.
>
>I usually try to keep myself out of "flame wars" but, sorry, I had
>to set the record straight on this one..
>	The Jordan game is a 7 of a kind NON-PRODUCTION GAME.
>	Its SOLE purpose for existing was to raise money for the
>Jordan Foundation charities.  It, in fact, raised over $50,000 at
>the Jordan Foundataion auction in September.
>Yes, I completly agree.  It is not the greatest sound package I
>have ever done for a game, in fact, pinball-wise, it isn't good at
>all.  However, auction-wise, it was great.  When the pin went up
>for the auction, they pushed the start button, and the game went
>intoo its 30 second Jordan/Music intro.  People loved it to the tune
>of 27,000 each!!!!!!  Everybody at DE worked during their free time
>to get the game done in time for the auction; remember we were 
>finishing up Star Wars at the same time and some of us have
>VERY little free time, but we thought it was worth it.  
>Sorry 'bout the gun sounds and such, but, since I am not an
>employee of DE (I'm a free-lance consultant), I only get paid
>a per-game fee.  Since this was a charity project, I waived my 
>usual consulting fee, and even told Joe that he could, during the
>auction, in order to have the game raise more money, say that I
>would do a custon song for the buyer of the game.  (It ended up
>being Gatorade; the game playes "Be like Mike," the Gatorade/Jordan
>music at game over, now).  I did what I could, in the time I had,
>keeping in mind that everybody else, from the playfield screeners to
>the display artists were doing the same.  Sorry if a 3-week crash
>project game doesn't take your fancy.  It SURE helped the kids that
>benefit from the Jordan charities, though.  Tell them exactly how
>evil Data Ease Pinball is.
>We put the game out just
>for fun; OF COURSE IF WE WERE TO TO A REAL JORDAN GAME IT
>WOULDN'T HAVE GUNSHOT SOUNDS FOR A BASKETBALL DRIBBLING SOUNDS,
>WHAT DO YOU THINK I AM????????!?!?!?!S

I wouldn't expect you would. But as I said above, I didn't get a chance
to see the credits. Besides, if you were doing a cheap-jack conversion
(as I thought they were) would you hire Brian Schmidt? Or get some
schmoe from around the company to rehack some code?

>
>Sorry for flaming on, but we worked hard to get that game out;to
>see it flamed so badly isn't exactly heart-warming.
>
>-Brian Schmidt, freelance game sound designer.

Since this is a more even toned response to my article (which was also
about 85-90% review and 10-15% flame) I'll respond to this one better.

The sound is difficult to listen to, at the very least because it
overlaps and cuts off. I understand you couldn't redesign the game play
to fix that.

For those who think I'm an a-number-1 idiot for thinking this game was
production. I had a couple reasons.

1. The employee at Golfland said they ordered Star Wars and got this
   instead. Not likely a limited edition (7-of-a-kind) would come in
   as a replacement for a production game.
2. Golfland (esp. Sunnyvale) isn't too good with their machines. All
   their machines are broken in pretty major ways. And they came in an
   leveled them all wrong a couple weeks ago. I've never seen their
   Dr. Who working. In short, if a limited edition, extra special pin
   was going to come in to an arcade in town, it likely wouldn't be
   Golfland Sunnyvale.
3. A friend of mine (sorry, nameless) who would be in a position to
   know (but I guess didn't) said that Data East had determined they
   wouldn't make any money off LW3 as-is, so they decided to make
   Michael Jordan, too.
4. MJ is poorly done and I immediately got steamed.

In article <SBB.92Nov4222535@panix.com> Steve Baumgarten, sbb@panix.com
writes:
>In article <1992Nov1.213227.22990@gallant.apple.com> Steve Bollinger 
><buzz@apple.com.> writes:
>
>   This game going to do the pin world a lot of damage. The play is
>   disjointed and confusing (why does it make gun noises when I am
>   shooting basketballs, and why does a guy make a hurt noise when I
>   make the monster slam at the end?) The graphics suck all around and
>   the play is incomprehensible. Furthermore, it was clearly not made
>   to make money (intro too long, etc.) But it will make money, hand
>   over fist. This game was packed when I was there both times. Taken
>   on its own, this game is probably the worst Data East I've seen. If
>   you've played LW3, it is okay, since you know what to shoot.
>
>I think some people's powers of observation aren't what they might be;
>certainly when I saw the custom "Gulf War" CHECKPOINT conversion at
>the Expo last year, it never occurred to me for a minute that it was
>anything other than a custom, one-of-a-kind game.
>
>You know why?  Because even if I'd never seen a CHECKPOINT before, it
>was obvious that the game sounds weren't very appropriate at times;
>and neither the playfield nor the artwork had the close attention to
>detail that Data East lavishes on all their games.
>
>People may tend to like games from one manufacturer more than games
>from another, but none of the manufacturers put out hastily made,
>slapped-together games.  Though uninventive, derivative clone games
>with uninspiring graphics are the norm in the video world these days,
>every pin released by each of the three manufacturers always looks
>like a lot of people spent an awful lot of time trying to get
>everything to look and sound just right.
>
>Simpsons stuff deleted<
>
>So to the original poster: do yourself a favor and *look* at these
>games.  Really *look* at them.  And having done that, how can you
>really think that Data East would slap Michael Jordan's name on LW3
>and crank out 10000 copies in a cynical attempt to make money?
>
>We're lucky indeed that no one in this industry operates that way, and
>that the worst thing we can find to moan about is an over-reliance on
>licenses for new game ideas.  Players in the video world would, I'm
>sure, trade their problems for ours in a minute.

Actually, VG players seem pretty happy playing SFII, even if we don't
like it. As for cynical attempt to make money, yeah, apparently I did.
And I had a lot of info which backed up my feelings (wrong info, I guess)

I care about pins. And I don't want to see ANY pin company start doing
this. I thought I was breaking bad news, not flaming. And I wanted to put
DE in their place for doing it. I also understand (when I am thinking
rationally) that I am not necessarily ths person who is designated to put
pin makers in their place. I do feel that any company, DE included will
make efforts to multiply their profits from a given investment,
especially if they enter dire financial straits (I don't know this about
DE, I'm just speaking hypothetically). This includes duplicating a game
and slapping a powerhouse license on it. Fortunately, this hasn't
happened yet. Maybe, if enough people express displeasure it won't
happen. (Star Flight 2000 et. al. not withstanding)

In article <1992Nov6.024542.13373@rtsg.mot.com> Joel K. Iott,
iott@rtsg.mot.com writes:
>I wasn't going to respond to this flame either, but the posts from the
Data
>East folks made me want to.
>
<Some of Joel's opinions from his experience with MJ deleted>
>
>Clever use of existing playfield.  The "uzi" lights are still there, but
it is
>not recognizably a gun anymore, due to the playfield art. 
I completely disagree. Look at the flames coming out the muzzle and the
bullets below the body. Poorly camouflaged. They had their work cut out
for them and I think they were overmatched.

>Clever use of existing rules for LW3.  Just about every special mode had
been
>changed to basketball-related.  Barkley vs Godzilla was hilarious!
Stretched at best.

>Lots of new dot-matrix animation of Michael and friends to enjoy.
You know, you're right. Honestly, I don't know what I was thinking.
The playfield art sucks and the backglass art is uninspired, but the
dot matrix art is better than LW3, maybe DE's best yet.

>Great background music - catchy "Rock and Roll Rock" tune in the
>background. Sports fans will love the buildup before the game, just
>like at a Bulls game.
Correction, Bulls fans will love the buildup before the game. Did I
mention I just moved out to California from Ann Arbor, Michigan, and I'm
a Pistons fan (just about explains this whole post, eh?). My real beef
with this sequence more that you can't interrupt it to add players.

<conclusion 1 deleted>
>Other conclusion:
>
>Flamers and negative reviewers should attempt to be more positive. 
Nearly
>every pinball machine has some fans.  And any machine can play badly if
not
>maintained.  Yes, there are some problems with MJ, but they aren't
TERRIBLE
>problems.  Let's try and keep r.g.p a nice little niche away from the
flaming
>going on in those "big" newsgroups. 

Yes, the problems are TERRIBLE. If you haven't played LW3 you have no
clues as to how to light targets in MJ. The rules set is completely
opaque. I played double with more than one person who hadn't played LW3
and had absolutely NO CLUE as to how light anything. I'll give some room,
but not here, the game is unintellegible to non-LW3 players.
>
>Joel Iott
>
>P.S.  I have been guilty of negative reviews too.  (Dr.  Who).  But I
have
>learned from my mistakes and attempt to be more upbeat in the future. 

Negative reviews are not a bad thing. No improvements will be made if
everybody thinks every game is great. Do you want to see Bugs Bunny's
Birthday Bash go back into production? I didn't think so. Williams would
never have switched to solid state flippers (thus making operators lives
easier) if Data East hadn't come out with an operator-friendly flipper.
And Data East wouldn't have redesigned their flippers 4 times (or
whatever) if everybody told them their first models were perfect.
I will never succomb to "Yes"-ing and I suggest others don't either.

In article <BxB5vn.1E9@chinet.chi.il.us> Louis Koziarz,
koziarz@chinet.chi.il.us writes:
>>Other conclusion:
>>
>>Flamers and negative reviewers should attempt to be more positive. 
Nearly
>>every pinball machine has some fans.  And any machine can play badly if
not
>>maintained.  Yes, there are some problems with MJ, but they aren't
TERRIBLE
>>problems.  Let's try and keep r.g.p a nice little niche away from the
flaming
>>going on in those "big" newsgroups. 
>
>Good point.  I think this is a special case, considering that MJ was a
special
>custom pin done for charity, and that very few people out of the Chicago
area
>would have known about the story behind this pin.
>
>On the _other_ hand, anyone who reads g.r.p on a semi-regular basis would
>have seen some messages about it.
I had heard about it, and there were allusions to that in my original
post and this one. As I said before you don't often see one of three (as
earlier posts had said) pins in the world in a substandard arcade in
San Jose.

>On the third hand, criticism on design, graphics, etc. is allowable as
long
>as it doesn't turn into 23K of 'CRAP CRAP CRAP...'.  Yow.

I'm not specificially targetting the person who wrote this line, but I
would like to mention that my original post was long because it was a
fairly detailed description of the game. I could have flamed it on about
15 lines.

As for the original issue. I stand behind my original posts factual
content and opinions (except that I actually think the dot-matrix
graphics are pretty good) As a collector's item this game is a bonanza,
and I said so in my original post. As a pin, it sucks. It fails to hold
together and explain itself when taken separately from LW3. The playfield
art is terrible and the sounds are poorly integrated. Those in the know
understand that there is an explanation, but there was no explanation
taped to the backglass of this machine. With that in mind, I hope you can
see how I got angry and posted a flame.

I could easily have tarted this post up, too. But I didn't. I have been
honest, and I am going to continue to be honest about this issue. If it
offends you or I put you down, at least you know I mean it.

Finally, there is no malice in this post. I've checked it over three
times. In fact, I'm in a good mood because I can now explain better what
I was thinking. To anyone who decides I quoted or rebutted in this post,
if you think I am belittling you with my post, I just chose my words
poorly, and I didn't mean it, please don't attack me back. If those at
Data East or others feel I am not giving them a chance or just plain
wrong-well, maybe I am, and I am willing to discuss.

Sorry for the flame. Not sorry for the negative statements about MJ.

-Steve Bollinger
Newsgroups: rec.games.pinball