HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: spss.com!adams@overmind.mind.org
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: cancel <adams.711821279@spssig>
Date: 22 Jul 92 22:28:00 GMT
Organization: SPSS Inc.
X-mailer: Stadel 3.4a-227
X-Spam-content: irrelevant

cancel <adams.711821279@spssig> in newsgroup rec.sport.baseball
--
 The opinions expressed above are those of the author and not SPSS, Inc.
                        -------------------
     adams@spss.com                           Phone: (312) 329-3522
     Steve Adams                              Fax:   (312) 329-3558
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: bcschu@skws02.monsanto.com (Brett Schultz)
Subject: olympic baseball
Organization: Monsanto Company
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 17:35:41 GMT

Does anyone have the olympic roster and/or the schedule?
I glanced over the NBC schedule for the olympic events and didn't see
any baseball in there.  Are any of the games going to be televised?

Thanks

Brett

Xref: sparky rec.sport.baseball:22881 rec.sport.baseball.fantasy:399
From: steven@jaynes ( Steve Novak)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball,rec.sport.baseball.fantasy
Subject: Re: DICKS THAT SHOULD BE IN OTHER GROUPS
Date: 27 Jul 92 16:27:47 GMT
Organization: U S WEST Advanced Technologies

> = JIMBO@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU writes:

>I'M SO SICK OF SEEING THIS :=) IN A NEWSGROUP DEVOTED TO
>THE LOVE OF SPORTS THAT I DEMAND THAT IT CEASES. 

So...you *liked* that last batch of PCP.

>GOT A PROBLEM ?  SEE ME PERSONALLAY!

Look in the mirror.  There's your problem (I don't even get 
what he's whining about.  Is a ":=)" insulting to someone
in some way?)

>SEE ME PERSONALLALY!

No thanks.

> REMEMBER, WHEN THEY SAY THEY'RE KIDDING...THEY'RE NOT

BTW, this was all a joke.

-- 
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| Steve Novak |    |"Nothing to do to save his life..."| 
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
steven@advtech.USWest.Com
From: tmiller@prism.gatech.EDU (Thomas Miller)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Braves news
Date: 30 Jul 92 13:23:53 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology


  Well, there's good news and bad news.  The Braves managed to 
avoid being swept by the Astros, winning 5-3.  Lemke went 3-for-3
with a pair of doubles, Nixon was 2-for-5, Pendleton 1-for-5 (a
solo homer), nothing else really of note.

  The bad news:  5th starter Mike Bielecki is out for the remainder
of the season with a torn elbow ligament.  Pete Smith has been 
called up from AAA Richmond to replace him.  It seems like someone
just mentioned how fortunate the Braves have been to not have any
serious injuries yet this season.

  Ah, well.  On to Candlestick Park in SF for four games...




-- 
Thomas Miller     Georgia Tech Network Services     GT EE 1992 (?!) 
WORK: (404) 853-0254 / Rich Bldg Rm 127, 258 4th St Atlanta, Ga. 30332
HOME: (404) 876-7929 / 345 Peachtree Pl NW, Atlanta, Ga. 30318 
Internet: tmiller@prism.gatech.edu OR tmiller@oit.gatech.edu
From: mjs@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Marc Sabatella)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1992 17:46:58 GMT
Subject: Re: The Commish is Gone (maybe) !!
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball

In rec.sport.baseball, snichols@adobe.com (Sherri Nichols) writes:

> Page 12, column 1, paragraph 1:
> 
> 	Besides declaring Rose permanently ineligible, the "Agreement and
> 	Resolution" stated Rose "acknowledges that the commissioner has
> 	treated him fairly in this agreement" and "Rose will conclude these
> 	proceedings before the commissioner without a hearing and the
> 	commissioner will not make any 	formal findings or determinations
                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 	on any matter including without limitation the allegation that
> 	Peter Edward Rose bet on any major league baseball game." 

As long as the debate is on semantics, I think it is worth questioning whether
the underlined phrase means "any formal (findings or determinations)" or
"any (formal findings) or (determinations)."  Under the latter interpretation,
even a publicly stated opinion would, as Ken would be sure to agree, mean
Giamatti broke the agreement almost immediately:

> 	Giamatti responded to a direct query on the
> 	subject by saying:  "In the absence of a hearing and therefore in
> 	the absence of any evidence to the contrary, I am confronted by the
> 	factual record of the Dowd report, and on the basis of that, yes, I
> 	have concluded that he (Rose) bet on baseball."

Note the word "opinion" is nowhere to be found; also note the word "concluded".
This is as unequivocable statement as you are likely to find.  The debate then
is, is this a "formal finding or determination".  If you parenthesize as I
suggest, it is indeed a "determination".

Now, Sherri doesn't even want to give in on this point - her claim seems to be
that even with "formal" applying both to "findings" and "determinations", that
Giamatti's statement violates the agreement.  The argument is then, "what
constitutes a formal determination"?  Given that the commissioner of baseball
has the only say on the matter, I kind of see Sherri's point, that you can't
easily separate the personal opinion of the man whose personal opinion is law
from the law.  On the other hand, I understand Ken's insistence that a
determination isn't "formal" unless it is signed with his explicit title of
commissioner of baseball attached to it.  What I don't understand is how anyone
can deny the fuzziness of the semantics we are discussing, and still maintain
that "my position is right, and the other person is wrong and just being
obstinate".

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marc "Dave" Sabatella		Disclaimer: OPS is not the One True Statistic
marc@hpmonk.fc.hp.com		that makes all others obsolete
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: jhg8680@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Jon  Hamkins)
Subject: Re: Value of Stats
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 19:58:11 GMT

djohnson@cayley.waterloo.edu (David Johnson) writes:

>There are two question which I feel can be asked when comparing players.
>1)  Who is more talented?  This requires statistics alone.  Attitude,
>    enthusiasm etc. won't change talent.
>2)  Who is more better for the team?  This requires the combination of using
>    statistics and analysing the intangibles.

I suppose you could define talent to only include physical abilities,
but that is unneceassarily restrictive.  When I ask, "Who is more
talented," I mean, "Who is more talented at *winning*," which is
exactly the same as, "Who is better for the team?"  They are one and
the same question, IMHO.  If there is something a player does that is
good for the team, *whatever* it is, I'd say that's a talent of his.

That is separate from the issue, however, whether a great attitude
helps a club win.  If you can show that a great attitude helps a club
win games, then I'd say players with great attitudes have more talent,
all other things being equal.  And they would: not everyone is capable
of having a good attitude.  But it's a big if.

     ----Jon Hamkins  (hamkins@uiuc.edu)
         University of Illinios
         Urbana, IL
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: g_waugaman@nac.enet.dec.com (Glenn R. Waugaman)
Subject: Re: More Rocket Bashing
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 14:49:51 GMT


In article <29JUL92.21531172@vax.clarku.edu>, hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu writes...
> 
>My prediction is that, unless Rocket Roger somehow gains the
>ability to deal with pressure, he will never get a World Series
>ring.  I hope I am wrong about this.  My team won in 1986 and
>I promised my Red Sox fan husband that the Sawx could win the
>next time.

You should remember, then, that Clemens left the ill-fated Sixth Game with
a 3-2 lead, having surrendered only one earned run, and if not for that
*bonafide* glassy-eyed, clenched-throated choke artist Calvin Schiraldi's 
inability to keep the ball out of the middle of the strike zone or to 
field his own position, right now the 1986-vintage Roger Clemens would 
forever be remembered in Boston as the man who nearly single-handedly 
brought the hardware back to Boston.  Bitter?  Nah, not me...

Clemens' performance in the postseason has been very average, but not
nearly as bad as many have suggested: 48.2 IP, 3.88 ERA, 1 win, 2 losses,
3 bullpen-surrendered leads... 

---
Glenn Waugaman
Digital Equipment Corporation
Littleton, MA
g_waugaman@nac.enet.dec.com
---
From: jimdean@bnr.ca (Jim Dean)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: luck in baseball
Date: 29 Jul 92 17:35:25 GMT
Reply-To: jimdean@bnr.ca
Organization: Bell-Northern Research
Originator: jimdean@bcrks81


dkl@cs.arizona.edu (David K. Lowenthal) writes:

>Well, I do not believe in luck in baseball, because the game is based
>on skill.  

satrape@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (James V Satrape) writes:

<...discussion, and Jim's definition which I couldn't realy find, deleted...>

> If you disagree with my description of luck above, how about giving 
> your definition of luck.  

"Luck is the residue of design" - Branch Rickey.

I believe this 100%.  Good design ==> Good luck.  Bad design ==> Bad luck.
Seems to work at the amateur level, too.

-- 
Jim Dean (Internet: jimdean@bnr.ca) +-----+    National Capital Baseball League
mild-mannered computer scientist -->|Phone|--> President. Pitcher. My knuckler?
Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa,Ont. |Booth|    Not too legit to hit!  6-0, 1.99
Phone: (613) 763-2135 Fax: 763-7241 +-----+    Phone: (613) 723-1580
From: strobe.ATC.Olivetti!rsmith@overmind.mind.org
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: RP/PA for AL and NL (More bogus RP stats)
Date: 22 Jul 92 23:03:00 GMT
Organization: Olivetti ATC; Cupertino CA, USA
X-mailer: Stadel 3.4a-227
X-Spam-content: irrelevant

In article <1992Jul22.165443.15814@adobe.com> snichols@adobe.com (Sherri 
Nichols) writes:
>In article <BrrqEL.3K7@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> 
djohnson@cayley.waterloo.edu (David Johnson) writes:

>>isn't a good stat without improving it or giving suggestions on how to 
>>improve it then just say you don't like it and leave the discussion about
>>it.
>

>
>I'll give you a suggestion: abandon using anything with runs and rbis in it
>to evaluate the individual contributions of the players.  You can divide by
>anything you want, and it's not going to solve the fundamental problem,
>only make small improvements.  Instead, look at things like Linear Weights
>(ignoring the fielding stuff, which is flawed), or, if you want a simple
>measure, check out OBA+SLG or Runs Created.
In other words, why would Sherri give you suggestions on how to improve
a stat that it in her opinion bogus and not at all valuable? She told you
in plain english what was wrong with it, why she felt it was wrong and
people kept to trying to "improve" it by dividing it by something. As 
Sherri then pointed out, it can be divided by whatever people feel like,
but that won't make the stat any better because you're still dividing
using a stat that is meaningless. 

If there is something important about this stat, inform us, but don't just
claim its valid because it makes a certain player look good when more
meaningful stats make him look worse(which is what started this thread,
somebody-I forget who_ trying to make Cecil Fielder look better by using
runs produced.
>Sherri Nichols
>snichols@adobe.com




Russ Smith

*****************************************************************************
**
"I want a world where I can eat a sea otter without getting sick!"

Leslie Nielsen in the Naked Gun 2 1/2

*****************************************************************************
*
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: rickert@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (John H. Rickert)
Subject: Puckett-Bonilla (was Re: RC/27 for CFs)
Organization: Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 18:19:04 GMT


In article <1992Jul24.154147.1766@island.COM> fester@island.COM (Mike Fester)  
writes:
> In article <1992Jul22.031352.19852@panix.com> spira@panix.com (Greg  
"Sarcasm Is A Way Of Life" Spira) writes:
> >performances by NL outfielders in the first half.  But I would certainly
> >argue that [Bonilla]'s a better offensive player than Puckett, even though  
Puckett
> >has outperformed him so far this year (though when you take into account
> >park effects, its pretty close).
> 
> It's close after parks effects? Their OBP is about the same, and Bonilla's
> SLG is 100 points below Puckett's. Elias lists the 'Dome effect as +5% and  
Shea
> as -5%. Close? If Puckett goes into a prolonged slump and Bonilla goes on a 
> tear, yeah, it'll BE close. Right now, it ain't.

If the 5% is on SLG and OBP, then I get (stats from Weekly thru 7/19)
Puckett -> .899OPS * .95 ~ .854
Bonilla -> .803OPS * 1.05 ~ .843
which seems pretty close.

Of course, Puckett is better able to take advantage of his home park 
(BA: .374 home .300 road ) than Bonilla (BA: .211 home .302 road).
So Puckett seems more valuable offensively at home, while 
Bonilla appears to me to be more valuable offensively on the road.

john rickert
rickert@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu
From: jcp29389@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (BEACH VOLLEYBALL!!!)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: 6 hits in inning without scoring
Date: 30 Jul 92 17:58:52 GMT
Distribution: rec
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

jsandler@encore.com (Jeff Sandler) writes:

>My version:
>Tripple.  Runner at third.
>Single, runner at third can't advance.  1st and 3rd.
>Stolen base.  2nd and 3rd.
>Single.  Bases loaded.
>Tripple, but the lead runner fails to touch home.  Appeal successful,
>  runner at 3rd, one out.

what happened to the other 2 runners??  aren't they out too?  and if not, then
why don't their runs count?

>Double, but runner at 3rd leaves early.  Appeal successful.  Runner at
>  2nd, two outs.

how can you leave early on a hit?

>Stolen base.  Runner at 3rd, two outs.
>Tripple, but runner at 3rd falls down, breaks leg.  Gets tagged out after
>  batter-runner reaches 3rd.

>Result: Three tripples, Two singles, One double, Two stolen bases,
>no runs scored.


>--
>Jeff Sandler                            |   Go Florida State Seminoles!
>jsandler@encore.com                     |   Go Mets! (Until Marlins start)
>Encore Computer Corp.; Plantation, FL   |   Go Dolphins!     Go Heat!


i'm not flaming, so don't get so offended... i just need explanations for my
questions.

jay
--------------------------------------------------
if God dwells inside us, like some people
say, i sure hope He likes enchiladas,
because that's what He's getting!     -Jack Handey
--------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: rickert@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (John H. Rickert)
Subject: That depends...(WAS Re: RC/27 for CFs)
Organization: Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 18:56:39 GMT


In article <GRABINER.92Jul25115924@zariski.harvard.edu>  writes:
> In article <1992Jul25.004622.17179@panix.com>, Greg "Sarcasm Is A Way Of  
Life" Spira writes: 
> > Oh, and I noticed that someone (sorry, I forgot who) replied to this
> > same messages by adjusting OPS with the park effects.  I don't think
> > you can really do that, though.  The park effects for runs scored can
> > only be used on units expressed in terms of runs, like RC; they can't
> > be used on OPS. 
> Correct; OPS should be multiplied by the square root of the park effect.
> That is, if a park multiplies OBP by 1.1 and SLG by 1.1, then it will
> multiply runs scored (as measured by OBP*SLG) by 1.21.

I was assuming that the +/- 5% was the effect on OBP/SLG, in which case
the multiplier is correct. 
I take it that your correction implies that you do not believe that OPS  
correlate linearly with runs scored. If it did, then the original multiplier  
would be correct.
 
> If you don't want to bother with square roots, just use half the park
> effect; that's a good estimate for ratios near 1.

I prefer taking the square roots, it's more fun.

john rickert
rickert@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: pyacm@trentu.ca (A Colin Morton)
Subject: Re: Both Canadian teams in first place
Organization: Trent University, Ontario
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 14:27:27 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.191022.115548@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu> jm0i@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (JOSEPH ALOYSIUS MCVEIGH) writes:
>spira@panix.com (Greg "Sarcasm Is A Way Of Life" Spira) writes:
>
>>The more interesting question is - how would CBS like a World Series
>>played completely in Canada?
>
>They'd probably have to hire Don Cherry and John Davidson to broadcast it.
>-- 

Well, at least he wouldn't be able to complain about the European
players ruining the game by taking dives; the lack of visors would
surely also impress him.  I don't know what he'd think about the padded
walls, though.  

Colin.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu)
Subject: Re: Support-Neutral W/L Report -- AL (and NL)
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 22:46:33 GMT

In article <Bruso3.MLr@news.cso.uiuc.edu> hbrooks@uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu (Harold_Brooks) writes:

>How about Messrs. Armstrong and Abbott (PHI)?  Being both bad _and_
>extremely unlucky is a devastating combination.  And what is it about
>the name Abbott that leads to such bad luck?  The revenge of Lou 
>Costello, perhaps, for causing such mental anguish during the "Who's
>on First" routine?

Maybe it's not the revenge of *Lou* Costello but rather the revenge (for being
released) of *John* Costello?

===============================================================================
GO CALIFORNIA ANGELS!
Committee to Elect Johnny Ray as Angels Second Baseman
Committee to Elect Mike Witt as Angels Ace
Committee to Elect Cookie Rojas as Angels Manager
===============================================================================
Nelson Lu (claudius@leland.stanford.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: wmorgan@stsci.edu (Windsor A. Morgan)
Subject: San Diego mid-August Schedule?
Originator: wmorgan@nemesis.stsci.edu
Organization: Space Telescope Science Institute
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 15:37:18 GMT


I will be in San Diego from August 12 through August 16, and I want to
know

(1) Will the Padres be at home at anytime during that period, and

(2) If so, whom will they be playing, and what are the scheduled start
times?


Please email me the answer(s).  Thank you.
-- 
'Verily, there be no leader as wise as the Vision!'
                         Windsor Morgan (wmorgan@stsci.edu OR NHT@PSUVM.BITNET)
                         Space Telescope Science Institute
                         Baltimore, MD   21218
From: mzimmers@netcom.com (Michael Zimmers)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Value of Stats
Date: 28 Jul 92 01:27:24 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <3828@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> dtate+@pitt.edu (David M Tate) writes:

>In article <9zlm7tn.mzimmers@netcom.com> mzimmers@netcom.com (Michael Zimmers) writes:

>>I believe that Roger is implying that there is a reason that Salazar
>>got such limited time to perform, and he doesn't mean injuries.

>You mean bizarre Cubbie experiments at third base?  How is that Salazar's
>fault?

>>One could make an argument that platoon players see more favorable
>>hitting conditions on average than do everyday players.  

>Sure.  But, as has already been pointed out Salazar was *not* a platoon
>player.  He played full-time when he was "in", and not at all when somebody
>else (like Scott) was "in".  Most of his at bats, by a considerable margin,
>were against right-handed pitching.

O optimist that I am, I do believe we're making progress toward an 
understanding.  Let me paraphrase what I think you're saying, Doc (or
at least what I think you believe)"

"RC27 is flawed to the extent that an occasional or platooned player
is given playing time that is unrepresentative (in terms of average
opportunity) in comparison to an everyday player.

"Evidence of such skewed opportunities, however, is problematic.

"In any event, Salazar was not such a player, so there's no reason
to assume that his RC27 is in any way "cheaper" than Puckett's."

>-- 
>        David M. Tate        | "And that inverted Bowl we call The Dome
>   dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu   |  Whereunder crawling coop'd we field and bat,
>   Edward "Mike" Fitzgerald  |     Lift not your eyes to *it* for help--for it
>     from "The Ruthaiyat"    |  Will drop the tow'ring fly upon your hat."
                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
                                 You're really enjoying yourself, aren't you?


-- 
Michael Zimmers                                    |  Home:  408 996 1984
SoftHelp                                           |  Work:  408 996 1965
Software Solutions for Open Systems                |  Data:  408 996 1974
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: claudius@leland.Stanford.EDU (Nelson Lu)
Subject: Re: Dawson, was: Re: GMaddux to Test Free Agency Waters
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 17:28:12 GMT

In article <1992Jul27.134157.16552@tamsun.tamu.edu> rlm7638@tamsun.tamu.edu (Jack McKinney) writes:

>      1.  If you hit above .250 on the Cubs roster this year, you are
>practically eligible for MVP. He is one of their top hitters (3rd only
>to Grace and Sandberg).

This is meaningless.  Rene Gonzales is one of the Angels' top hitters.  What
does that tell you?

>      2.  HRs: As of Saturday night, when (so I hear, I missed the game)
>Andre got a home run, he is tied with Ryno for most number of HRs on the
>team (16, I think). If that isn't on his way to 25 for the season (let
>alone the 400 lifetime mark), I don't know what is. Unless Lefebvre takes
>Andre out of the lineup, we should see 25 HRs out of him.

25 HRs are not hard to get in Wrigley at all.  When you use up so many outs
to get them, you are costing your team a lot.

>      3.  I do see Andre get K'ed a lot, but I've seen Sandberg go through
>similiar slumps. I have seen Andre intentionally walked twice in the same
>game. I have seen him draw a couple of walks besides. (Sorry, no stats avail-
>iable on this one).

The strikeouts aren't the problem.  It's the lack of walks (and hits).

===============================================================================
GO CALIFORNIA ANGELS!
Committee to Elect Johnny Ray as Angels Second Baseman
Committee to Elect Mike Witt as Angels Ace
Committee to Elect Cookie Rojas as Angels Manager
===============================================================================
Nelson Lu (claudius@leland.stanford.edu)
From: jjd@TEAK.CRAY.COM (Jeff Drummond)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Amazing Base
Date: 22 Jul 92 19:55:01 GMT



           Amazing Base

Amazing base, how sweet the sack
That saved a boy like me
I once led off, but now I'm back
Was safe, but just barely.

A throw to first my heart afeard
But pitch my fears undid
How precious second base appeared
When 'neath the tag I slid.

The Coach had promised to send me
His sign I thus inferred
He will my hide nail to yon tree
If out I am at third.

Through many slides and pains lumbar
I have already come
'Tis guile that brought me safe thus far
And guile will get me home.

When we've played ball ten thousand years
Under God's bright blue dome
There's no play finer it appears
Then when a boy steals home.

-John "Speedy" Newton


Speedy Newton was a young professional ball player in the early
1870s who experienced a revelation one day while legging out a
routine grounder.  Miraculously, he beat the throw, and he
immediately dedicated his life to stealing bases.  He promptly
stole second, third and home on three consecutive pitches and
became the first man to steal all three bases after reaching
first.  He died stealing home a few weeks later as a result of
a horrendous collision at the plate (he was safe).  This poem
was found in his pocket.

Copyright (C) 1992 by Jeffrey J. Drummond

-Jeff    jjd@cray.com
--
"Often it is easier to steal second than to explain how you missed the
sign."  -Benjamin Franklin in "Poor Richard's Baseball Almanac"