From: callison@kittyhawk.ecn.uoknor.edu (James P. Callison)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Glock Defense (Re: Glock vs. SIG!?)
Date: 27 Jan 93 03:40:30 GMT
Article-I.D.: constell.C1HHKB.47M
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA

In article <4380@eastman.UUCP> (MJ) writes:
#
#Oh Boy.  Where are all the Glock Champions???  James seems to be frothing
#at the mouth in the following article.  He's a SIG nut but seems to have a
#hidden lust for Glocks.  He also has a few toys on his list of things to
#buy but James can afford it after spending all his money on his SIGs.  I
#don't like to knock other's tastes in guns but I must defend some of the
#things James has stated (of course always in his humble opinion.

Who's frothing? I am now, and was then, perfectly rational. Glocks are
decent guns, and I really do like them, but they are not, IMHO, in the
same class overall as the SIGs. That's my opinion, get yer own.

##In article <C1FDD9.3Bp@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu>, >callison@kittyhawk.ecn.uoknor.edu (James P. Callison) wrote:
## 
### In article <9301250428.AA28006@zippy.cs.UMD.EDU> kgk@martigny.ai.mit.edu >#(Kleanthes Koniaris) writes:
# 
## #I don't
## #want to hear "my Sig looks so pleasing that I stare at it all day, but
## #the Glock is ugly that I recoil in horror, therefore the Sig is
## #better."
## 
## The Glock is downright uncomfortable in my hand.
## As a matter of fact, I've found that shooting 1300fps/900ft-lb. .44Magnum
## through my S&W Model 29 is more comfortable than shooting a Glock 9mm 
#
#This is impossible to comprend.  I've owned a 6" and own a 4" M29.  I have
#a M23 and M20 Glock.  Glocks are soft shooters.  James is the first person
#I have heard of who believes differently.

Did I say anything about not being a soft shooter? I said that the S&W is
more comfortable, not that it shoots softer. The PMC .44Mag beats the
hell out of my hand, but it's more comfortable than the Glock's grip.
It's all in where the curves are, not in the recoil.
 
#It seems you've compared your SIG to farm equipment...interesting.  I'm a

No, I didn't. I was using the example to show that welds are not necessarily
a "Bad Thing"(tm pending). 

#mechanical engineer by education and career.  If the correct welding is
#used that's fine but it must done properly and inspected properly.  When
#done right, it can be as good as if machined from bar stock.  If done
#wrong,  who knows???? Safety, Life of Gun etc.

Well, it's done right on the SIG.

## Not really. The actual metalworking of the SIG is superior--the fit
## and finish is a big part of that.
#
#The truth is both designs employ cost cutting fabrication methods.  The use
#of sheet metal and welding in the SIG should make it very affordable but
#that IS NOT THE CASE.  It's my guess SIG has a huge mark up over factory
#cost or the Swiss labor costs are huge.

Try German labor costs. They're made by JP Sauer and Sohns in Germany.
The SIG P22x series is a joint-venture between SIG (Swiss) and JP Sauer,
thus the name SIG-Sauer. (SIG provided the design, and Sauer the 
manufacturing, I believe.)
Also try demand, supply, and importing fees.

## If you're really worried about it, pay the $20-50 to get it
## Parkerized, or buy the nickel finish SIG. It won't rust or
## wear either. (Besides...you can get a SIG with a nickel slide
## on a black frame--a truly cool-looking option :-)
#
#Sure why not spend another $50 on a gun that just set you back $700+.

"If you're really worried about it." It is not really a valid concern,
unless you live near a salt-sea coast. Then it becomes an issue on
_everything_ metal, not just a SIG.
 
## Advantages of the SIG:
## 	Superior Accuracy (hits near point-of-aim at 50m; groups
## 				of slightly more than 2" are not
## 				unheard of.)
#
#Let me understand this.  Does it hit the point of aim at 50m AND group 2"
#at 50m?  How many shots are in your group?  I've never owned a SIG but have
#shot them.  I've shot alot of handguns and many for 25yd 5 shot groups. 
#I've read alot of test articles on the SIGs.
#In short,  I wouldn't believe 2" at 25m.

Citation: _SIGARMS_Quarterly_, "100m Hits with the P226", Vol. 4, Summer,1992.

## 	Superior ergonomics (Of course, that's an advantage SIG has over
## 				all combat autos, IMHO.)
#
#This can't be judged.  I like the ergonomics of the Glock.  To all those
#out there considering SIG/Glock handle them and shoot them.

As I said, IMHO.

##  Advantages SIG over Glock
## 	Superior reliability (After I cleaned the packing grease off
## 				my P226, I've had a total of three jams, 
## 				and those were on empty cases during a
## 				feeding test (it fed the other 147 
## 				flawlessly).) The SIG is much less
## 				less prone to jams due to limp-wristing,
## 				or other grip-related jams, than the
## 				Glock. My only experience with Glocks
## 				have been with range guns, but the SIG
## 				range guns in similar condition had none
## 				of the problems of the Glocks.)
#
#I have not had any reliability problems with my Glocks and have seen many
#other Glocks perform flawlessly in competition.

Maybe. But, that's _not_ my experience. Your mileage differs.

##  Advantages SIG over Glock
## 	DA/SA trigger. (I personally like the ability to shoot SA, you
## 				may not.)
#
#You'll either love the Glock trigger or hate it.

Nah. It's OK, but I prefer DA/SA. I _hate_ true DAO. :-)

## Overly tight chamber--can fail to feed reloads and/or rounds which
## 				are beyond spec.
#
#This is news to me.

Where've you been? It's been all over rec.guns (and other sources) for
quite some time.

#I think the following is the bottom line between the two guns:
#
#1)  Many will not be able to get by the cost of the SIG.
#2)  Many will not get by the trigger of the Glock.
#3)  Many will not get by the looks of the Glock.
#
#Would I own SIG?  First, I have never and will never own a 9mm.  SIG's .40
#is just out and is the only one I would consider.  If the price came down
#about $150 I would consider it even more.  But alas, I am a lefty and the
#SIG sucks for a lefty.

That's your opinion. I know there are lefties out there who like
it just fine (some have even posted about it). I have no problems
shooting it left handed, but then, that's my off-hand. ;-)

No frothing, no flaming, just different opinions.

				James

James P. Callison       Microcomputer Coordinator        OU Law Library 
Callison@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu   /\    Callison@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu
	constellation!biglaw!callison@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu
DISCLAIMER: I'm not an engineer, but I play one at work...
	"God didn't make men and women equal. Colonel Colt did."
			--Maggie Zombro, "Reasonable Doubts"