From: dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)
Subject: Re: the conversion can of worms, again (was Re: Anti-Orthodoxy ...)
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 16:09:00 GMT

In <LERNER.92Jul31112139@division.cs.columbia.edu>
lerner@cs.columbia.edu (Michah Lerner) writes:

[DFS]
>-That is, of course, a false analogy.  First of all, the Justices in America
>-are selected as part of the legal system.  They are ultimately answerable
>-to the American Constitution.  The Orthodox religious establishment is
>-answerable only to G-d, not the State of Israel.
>            ====

> ONLY to G-D?  This would seem to me a higher authority.

Of course it's a higer authority.  But that's no way for a government
to make decisions - until Moshiach arrives.

> The Rabbonim are, and always have been, selected on the basis of their
> merit by the Gedolim (State enforced assignments aside).  There are 
> rigorous standards and excellence must be demonstrated both in knowledge
> and in character.

But so what?  They are concerned with Jewish law, not Israeli law.  Why
should they have any say over what non-O Israelis do?

>-Secondly, the Orthodox Jews in Israel are not "highly trained discerning
>-individuals who have been selected for special qualities."  They are just
>-ordinary people, the same as anyone else.  The majority of Israelis had
>-no say in selecting them.

>  And many US justices are APPOINTED officials l'havdil.  Yet America
>  is the greatest country in the world.

Don't the justices have to go through a confirmation procedure before
they can be appointed?

[DFS]
>-What IS your point??  Are you saying that two Ethiopians who want to marry
>-must first be "converted" and then married in a totally alien ceremony?
>-Is that as immutable as the laws of physics?

> And you are saying people should do whatever they like!

Essentially, yes.  What I am saying is that a *democratically-elected
government* has NO BUSINESS telling people that they must abide by rules
that only 15% of the population believes in.

>There are standards
> and practices that are well within the reach of all Jews.

However, many feel that they are being coerced to obey them.  Is coercion
the Jewish way?

[DFS]
>-I agree.  I said before: I have no problem with the O doing whatever
>-they want.  But why should they force it on others?  Why should a secular
>-government listen to 15% of its constituency and ignore the wishes of
>-85%?

> You are endorsing anarchy!!

Oh, nonsense.  Please stop this hype.  I am endorsing basic religious
freedom for non-O Jews.  I am endorsing a situation little different
from Canada or the U.S.  Would you say that Canada and the U.S. are
anarchic?

>You think that everyone should
>just do what they want without regard to the basic rules.  A majority 
>rule does not make a correct practice.

You don't read.  I want Israeli citizens to obey the rules of the State
of Israel.  What I don't want is to have those rules dictated by a small
segment of the population, with no regard to the feelings of the majority.

[DFS]
>-Let me give you an example which will hit home: Suppose the American
>-government decided that only religious marriage ceremonies were
>-acceptable.  Suppose they did a survey, and found that most Jews liked
>-the Conservative movement best.  Suppose that they then made it
>-illegal for any rabbi other than a Conservative rabbi to perform
>-marriages.  How would you feel?

> Such things and worse have been inflicted on our people, and we
> have held fast to our Religon. 

You didn't answer the question:  How would you feel?  Would you meekly
accept it?  Would you be outraged?  Would you demonstrate?  Would you
write letters?  Would you campaign against such a situation?  Please don't
shy away from the tough questions.

[DFS]
>-Exactly.  And currently, the government of Israel discriminates against
>-non-Orthodox or non-observant Jews.  This is manifestly anti-democratic.

>  Your conclusion does not follow from the imposition of standards
>  that protect the rights of everyone.

Exactly what "rights" are protected when Israel says to, say,
Conservative converts: "Sure, you can immigrate, you can fight in the
army for your nation - but expect trouble if you or your kids ever
want to get married, divorved or buried."

>-Well, then, you'd rather have a theocracy.  But Israel is a democracy,
>-and democracy and Halacha are incompatible.  Why don't you be honest and
>-admit it:  You would applaud the collapse of democracy in Israel if a
>-religious Jewish state emerged as a result.

> I would applaud the adherence to Halacha in a democratic state.  

You didn't answer the question, again.  You avoided the issue.  Your posting
indicates that you would rather impose Halacha on people than give them
democratic rights.

>-(And it's also easy to work against a democracy while sitting comfortably
>-in the U.S. where you know your rights will be protected.)

> I completely deny the preposterous calumny that you audaciously
> claim;  it is quite indeed testimony to your depravity.

Thank you.  I haven't been called "depraved" for a while.  I was
feeling "deprived."

>To
> even suggest that I would do such a thing is a total distortion.

Then why won't you agree that  85% of the people of Israel should have
religious freedom?

[DFS]
>-But what makes you think a religious Jewish state would be any more
>-successful than a religious Islamic state?  We've seen time and time
>-again that in the modern world, religion and politics are explosive

> In the interest of shalom I will not discuss the Islamic states.

More like in the interest of avoiding the issue - again.

[DFS]
>-I think you'll have a hard time convincing 85% of Israelis that.  If
>-Halacha is so pleasant, why do so many reject it?

> Most of those who reject it are simply and innocently misinformed.

So, why not make it your mission in life to INFORM people rather than
COERCE them?  Again, which is the Jewish way?

--
                     |         | "Step up and shake the hand
David F. Skoll       | ||||||| |  Of someone you can't stand,
|_ _ _  __   __ _ __ |  \\V//  |  You can tolerate him if you try..."
 / |  | |_|   | |  | |  __|__  |  -- Tom Lehrer, "National Brotherhood Week"
_____|________________________________________________________________________