HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dtasman@mccoy.NMSU.Edu (Dan Tasman)
Subject: Re: Neotraditional Planning Techniques?
Organization: New Mexico State University
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 03:14:29 GMT

I wrote: 
> Anyone want to talk about neotraditional planning techniques?

rkay@ausom.oz.au writes back:
> Okay Dan, I'll bite! ;-)
> 
> I'm interested in planning techniques - it was my favourite
> subject at University. What do you mean by the term "neotraditional
> planning techniques"?

In its most basic form, neotraditional planning involves taking qualities of  
older communities, specifically those dating to pre-WWII.  The intent is to  
create a village or small town atmosphere in a suburb, a sense of place in an  
area that is normally indistinguishable from the surrounding area. 

Some characteristics of neotraditional communities include:
* Alleys through the middle of a block, decreasing the effect of cars on a  
street.
* Older style architecture, usually Georgian, Federal, Colonial and Bungalow  
styles.
* Small front and side yard setbacks. 
* Narrow streets laid out in a grid, instead of wide twisting suburban streets.   
Streets also have less of a heirarchy of function than typical suburban roads  
(we all know about local streets, collector streets, minor arterials and major  
arterials :)

I could post a GIF of Kentlands or Seaside when I get my hands on a copy of  
Planning or Urban Land that has a picture of the developments in them.  It  
really looks nice, and it's a different approach to now communities than  
previously distinguished new towns (Reston VA, Valencia CA, Columbia MD, etc.) 

> Once you define the term I'll be in a better position to respond.
> I am conscious of the fact that as an Australian I may not speak
> the same "lingo" as you (lingo is Australian for
> language, by the way).

I hope that helps ... it's not too detailed or specific, but it should give you  
something of an idea.  Lingo is American for ... well, lingo.  You know :)

--
   Dan Tasman                                       dtasman@dante.nmsu.edu
                                                     molson@rever.nmsu.edu
   -----------------------------------------------------------------------
   "I think that I shall never see a billboard lovely as a tree
    Indeed, unless the billboards fall, I'll never see a tree at all."
                                                                Ogden Nash
Newsgroups: alt.planning.urban
From: perkinsh@infonode.ingr.com (Hilary Perkins)
Subject: Re: Does anybody post here?
Organization: Intergraph Corporation, Huntsville, AL.
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 15:50:21 GMT

In article <1992Jul20.231333.21964@nmsu.edu> dtasman@mccoy.NMSU.Edu (Dan Tasman) writes:

>I don't think parking would be that much of an issue for office space in many  
>larger cities.  I'm assuming a relativly high amount of transit usage for  
>various downtowns, but cities such as St. Louis don't have the densities that  
>transit-dependent downtowns such as New York and Chicago have.  If there's  
>transit, who needs parking?

This is true ... but St. Louisans are still fighting public transit.
Light Rail is going in, buses have always been there, but folks just
will not get out of their cars!

>Steamloops?  I thought New York City was the only place that had central  
>heating for most downtown buildings, unless you're talkig about something  
>different. 

The core of downtown St. Louis is served by a steam loop.  Some of the
new office buildings are tapped in too.  The system has been upgraded
over the past few years and the main facility converted into a trash-
to-energy site.

>>There are other things too.  Remember, I'm just carrying on
>>about the really big civic buildings that were built between
>>the turn of the century and about the late '20's.  Many of these
>>problems are not so challenging or simply go away with smaller
>>structures.

>I was thinking about smaller structures, such as churches, neighborhood  
>schools, and whatnot.  Those buildings should be maintained, because they  
>provide a sense of place to a community.  Look at real estate ads in Buffalo,  
> [...]
>always served a sense of place.  What do you do, tear them down, hope they'll  
>be reused for their original purpose again, or reuse them?

Good old Adaptive Re-Use, right?  Seems like it works - there's
a spectacular old Jewish temple in St. Louis that has be re-done
into some of the most dramatic apartments (maybe condos) that I've
ever seen.  

Sorry to keep harping on dollars, but what kind of incentives are 
you willing to give developers to take on these type of projects - 
when they can make mo' money, faster but throwing up ranchers in 
the 'burbs?

>   Dan Tasman                                      dtasman@dante.nmsu.edu
>                                                    molson@sloth.nmsu.edu
>   ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>   "I think that I shall never see a billboard lovely as a tree
>    Indeed, unless the billboards fall, I'll never see a tree at all."
>                                                               Ogden Nash

BTW - this is a great quote!

Hilary
-- 
| hilary@mozart.b17b.ingr.com 
| 205/730-7933 (voice)
| hilary e. h. perkins
| intergraph                           it's just a jump to the left ...
From: trifid@agora.uucp (Roadster Racewerks)
Subject: Re: Wolf Tales: Things Puppies Eat
Organization: Open Communications Forum
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 10:05:53 GMT



I'm not sure that the chewing of weird and improbable items has anything to do
with wolf-ness. The 100% dog German Shep we had when I was a teen drove us nuts
by teething on our brick fireplace. (You think fingernails on a blackboard are
bad? Listen to teeth on brick some time... :-)

Stevie-Paul also ate bees, getting puffy lips upon occasion, and ate a heel off
my shoe, my mother's complete eyeglasses (except for a bit of ear piece and
about half a lense) the sweat band out of dad's best homburg hat, part of his
wool macinaw, and other items that smelled of our persons, whenever we left
him alone for a weekend... Being a dog, he did none of this when we were around
because he'd have been upset to make us mad at him, and a wolf may feel a good
deal differently about that than a dog. But the weirdness is pretty darned
similar!

Suze

Newsgroups: alt.wolves,rec.pets.dogs
From: jegm@cody.esd.sgi.com (Jim Morris)
Subject: Re: prospects for unofficial reintroduction of wolves?
Reply-To: jegm@esd.sgi.com
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 23:20:38 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.145659.5955@noose.ecn.purdue.edu>, laird@stable.ecn.purdue.edu (Kyler Laird) writes:
|> Shhhh!  Not on the net!
|> 
|> Oh, well.  Since you've already mentioned it...I've been thinking
|> of this, too.  Think anyone would notice in north central Indiana?
|> 
|> I encourage you to make several trap/move iterations so that the
|> wolves are sited on their (artificial) journey south.
|> 
|> How about some other once-native north american animals, too?  Big
|> cats would be fun.
|> 
|> --kyler

I know that these suggestions have the best intentions, and I support
reintroduction, and protection of wolves. But.....

IMHO this would have to be done by professionals (whatever profession that may
be). First trapping wolves would be very stressfull for the wolf.
Secondly I would not want to see a wolf pack split up, they are very attached
to the pack members.
Thirdly they are likely to try to return to the spot they were relocated from,
I have heard *stories* (don't know if they are true) about wolves traveling
1000's of miles, like one story was about a wolf travelling from nothern
scandinavia fairly far south. He was eventually shot and killed by some
rabid crazy hunter, they even showed pictures of these jerks with the dead
wolf with a stick in its jaws, all smilling as if they had done something
really clever!! (yea wolf versus high powered rifle, really macho).

Anyway you get the Idea, I think amateur attempts to relocate wolves is
probably not a good idea. How about voting for someone who is likely
to accelerate the *official* relocation effort :-)

Jim
-- 
Jim Morris, Email: jegm@esd.sgi.com  Voice: (415) 390-5136
Newsgroups: alt.wolves,rec.pets.dogs
From: roger@uvmark.uucp (Roger MacNicol)
Subject: Re: response to rec.pets.dogs FAQ
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 13:25:47 GMT
Distribution: alt
Organization: Vmark Software, Inc.

In article <1992Jul28.163744.14876@odin.corp.sgi.com> amazon@sgi.com (Stormwind) writes:
>
>like what, *specifically*?  triss had a lot of peculiar
>behaviourisms that i have not observed before
>except in some limited species, such as australian
>shepards, but i can't even hope to say what kinds
>of characteristics you get without going on for 
>several hundred lines of stuff.
>

Well, I for one would enjoy reading "what kinds of characteristics" if you
have time to post Stormwind - that's what this group is for!

- Roger

-- 
 Roger MacNicol, Software Engineer
 Vmark Software, Inc., 30 Speen Street, Framingham, MA 01701
 email: uvmark%roger@merk.com
 Phone: (508) 879-3311, Fax: (508) 655-8395
From: amazon@sgi.com (Stormwind)
Newsgroups: alt.wolves
Subject: Wolf Tales: Hybrid Behaviour
Date: 31 Jul 92 14:46:51 GMT
Organization: X Industries, Heavy Weapons R&D

i'm yawning my way through the 6 am 
phone shift, the phones are blissfully
silent, and for a change the only thing
i have to do today is catch a flight out
of the state in about four hours.  so, 
time to scribble a bit.

we discovered, not long after owning 
triss, that she had a variety of funny
reactions to common household items.
for instance, our window came with sliding
glass windows, the kind that slide in 
tracks.  one morning, after putting triss
out in the yard, someone slid the window
back and triss immediately puffed right 
up and went into a paroxysm of furious
barking.  we repeated this experiment later
that day, and it was quite an experience to
sit next to triss and watch the fur on her
back stand up straight as she started 
barking at the window.

we never did find out exactly what it was
about that sliding window noise that drove
her nuts, but she hated it all her life.
in her later years, as she was getting more
tired, it would sometimes take several slides
of a window to start her off, as opposed to
one slide of the heavy sliding glass door.

reflective surfaces also used to drive triss
nuts.  one day, after mom had spent the whole
weekend washing windows, i had triss on a leash
and was walking her around.  i walked up next
to the large sliding glass door, which was open,
and started talking to mom.  

"what's wrong with triss?" mom said.  triss had
self-inflated again and was bristling at the 
window.  no sooner had mom said this, than triss
erupted into barks and snarls and launched at the
sliding glass door.  she hit the end of the leash
before hitting the glass door, but we let out 
enough leash so she could bump her nose on the glass.

her barking trailed off into some very puzzled
growls as we all stood around laughing.  talk
about the story of the dog and the bone crossing
the river....here our own hybrid had mistaken 
her reflection in the window as another dog,
and then couldn't figure it out when she couldn't
smell the other dog!

naturally, mom decided to slide the window at
this point, and we were off into barking mode 
again.....

another time, while walking triss, my dad
discovered an interesting phenomenon.  when
passing those blue mailboxes on streetcorners,
triss would bristle all up, growl, and refuse
to walk past the mailbox.  dad had to cross 
the street, and triss kept looking back to 
check on the mailbox.  we figured it out: 
from the hybrid's perspective, here was this
large, four-footed hump-backed animal that
smelt of several hundred different people.
she did NOT like large mailboxes, though 
eventually she figured out that they weren't
animate and wouldn't attack her.

		stormwind

		hell's amazon
Newsgroups: alt.wolves
From: amazon@annexia.esd.sgi.com (Stormwind)
Subject: revised rec.pets.dogs faq!
Organization: X Industries, Heavy Weapons R&D
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 18:58:06 GMT

cindy tittle and i have just completed several
rounds of email concerning the faq from rec.
dogs.pets.  while not absolutely perfect, it has
rectified several points of misinformation and
presents other information from a different
angle than it previously has.  while there are
still some comments in it that i'm not comfortable
with, it's vastly improved over the old one. 
check it out.

				stormwind

				hell's amazon
Newsgroups: alt.wolves,rec.pets.dogs
From: laird@stable.ecn.purdue.edu (Kyler Laird)
Subject: Re: prospects for unofficial reintroduction of wolves?
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 14:56:59 GMT

Shhhh!  Not on the net!

Oh, well.  Since you've already mentioned it...I've been thinking
of this, too.  Think anyone would notice in north central Indiana?

I encourage you to make several trap/move iterations so that the
wolves are sited on their (artificial) journey south.

How about some other once-native north american animals, too?  Big
cats would be fun.

--kyler
Xref: sparky alt.wolves:30 rec.pets.dogs:9161
From: casey@well.sf.ca.us (Kathleen Creighton)
Newsgroups: alt.wolves,rec.pets.dogs
Subject: Re: Dogs & Renting (was: response to rec.pets.dogs FAQ)
Date: 30 Jul 92 17:09:04 GMT
Article-I.D.: well.Bs7oz5.4rx
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link


I have researched this thoroughly in San Francisco County for the San
Francisco SPCA.

1.  Renter's insurance *does not cover* damage done by a dog.  There is no
    way (repeat:  no way) for a renter to insure or bond against potential
    dog damage.  If an *insurance agent* tells you it's covered, call the
    company direct and ask.  We talked to all of the major carriers and
    were told it is explicitly *not covered*.

2.  It's not true that all "corporate landlords" are anti-pet.  In fact,
    a few here have representatives on the SPCA's Open Door Task Force.
    Many large complexes *do* accept *small* pets.

3.  San Francisco does not have vacancy control, but it does have rent
    control.  There is no such thing as "rent for you" and "rent for your
    dog".  If you have local rental laws, check this out.

    In California, any money paid to a landlord that *is not rent* is
    considered a "security deposit".  It is *all refundable*.  Some
    landlords try to extract money from potential tenants.  This is not
    *not* legal in California.

    I can understand the desire to find housing "at any cost", but
    personally I draw the line at extortion.  Find out what your local laws
    are.

I don't know how much this can be generalized, but I found in San Francisco
that it's easier to rent with pets at either the *low end* or the *high
end* of the market.  There's very, very little pet-friendly housing
available in the "middle".

And don't forget to do up your dog resume!  It will always generate
conversation, acts as your representative in your absence, and helps take
the sting out of rejection.
-- 
Kathleen Creighton                     {pacbell,hplabs,apple,ucbvax}!well!casey
San Francisco                          casey@well.sf.ca.us
       Just another annoyingly devoted Akita owner
Newsgroups: alt.wolves,rec.pets.dogs
From: millios@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (william.l.millios)
Subject: Re: response to rec.pets.dogs FAQ
Organization: AT&T
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 21:56:57 GMT


All the talk about the WHs, and Joe Public/Voter, and such...

I am having a devil of a time finding a place to live that permits
dogs - people have this notion that *all* dogs bark, and chew, and
pee on walls, and ...

I explain that I'm enrolling my dog in obedience classes...

"Oh, she's not obedient already?  Well, I don't want a disobedient
dog in *my* house..."

How about that one, folks...

Bill
Newsgroups: alt.wolves,rec.pets.dogs
From: goldsman@cc.gatech.edu (Michael G. Goldsman)
Subject: prospects for unofficial reintroduction of wolves?
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 19:03:58 GMT
X-Posted-From: cloudgen1.cc.gatech.edu
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu


Though just a BIT illegal, how unreasonable would it be for a group of 
environmentalists to trap a few dozen wolves in Minnesota, and then to drive 
them to Yellowstone, the Adirondacks, or Colorado etc...
and release them into the wilderness?

If noone knew about it, when they were discovered, it would seem as though
they had migrated back naturally, and thus, they would be protected under
the Endangered Species Act ( ---> no compromises with the ranching
industry necessary)

Would this be THAT expensive?  Would the wolves be in danger of dying
from natural causes? 

This is just something I'm tossing out into the ether...

Comments? Flames?


-Mike
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Goldsman              __o          o__      o__      o__      o__    
36004 Ga Tech Station    _ \<,_        _.>/ _   _.>/ _   _.>/ _   _.>/ _   
Atlanta, Georgia 30332  (_)/ (_)      (_) \(_) (_) \(_) (_) \(_) (_) \(_)
begin 600 mikeskey.pub
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M2-L>:-]*PXH 70_R)Z^HD:Q!1LA;$DL6\I3SJZ/%TB& )A]%NL$2UI.R;@'W
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Xref: sparky alt.wolves:31 rec.pets.dogs:9162
From: markh@sag4.ssl.berkeley.edu (Mark Hurwitz)
Newsgroups: alt.wolves,rec.pets.dogs
Subject: Re: Dogs & Renting (was: response to rec.pets.dogs FAQ)
Date: 30 Jul 92 18:23:48 GMT
Organization: Space Science Labs
NNTP-Posting-Host: sag4.ssl.berkeley.edu

In article <Bs7oz5.4rx@well.sf.ca.us> casey@well.sf.ca.us (Kathleen Creighton) writes:
>I found in San Francisco
>that it's easier to rent with pets at either the *low end* or the *high
>end* of the market.  There's very, very little pet-friendly housing
>available in the "middle".
>
	I found that potential renters object more to a dog in principle
than in practice.

	Tell them over the phone that you have a large dog; they'll
tell you not to bother to apply.

	Go visit the house, meet the renter, impress him or her with
your responsibility, THEN mention the large, clean, well-behaved
dog.  Much better response.

Mark
Newsgroups: alt.wolves,rec.pets.dogs
From: Jonny Axelsson <jonnya@ifi.uio.no>
Subject: Scandinavian wolves (& some emotion on hybrids)
        17:39:07 GMT
Cc: jonnya
Organization: Dept. of Informatics, University of Oslo, Norway
        <ncg8l58@zuni.esd.sgi.com> <1992Jul17.142104.19940@uwm.edu>
        <ndpgubg@zuni.esd.sgi.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 18:20:17 GMT
Originator: jonnya@butleren.ifi.uio.no

Jim Morris writes in msg <ndpgubg@zuni.esd.sgi.com>:

> The reason I got so hot was because a self-declared expert on Wolves declared
> publicly, among other things, that sleeping with wolf hybrids could be
> dangerous. This is bad form because people with no experience with WH's
> are likely to believe this "expert". Say for instance my neighbours
> read that article, and suddenly get frightened because they live next
> door to "a big bad dangerous" wolf. The next thing I know is that animal
> control is knocking on my door, and seizing my baby, and destroying him.
 
> This is not far-fetched, this kind of hysteria is responsible for the
> extinction of wolves in Norway, and the extermination of wolves in Sweden.
> (Did Anyone see that very sad program on A&E last night? about wolves in
> Sweden.)

The Scandinavian wolf is not, yet, extinct. There are some 10 wolves
left in the border area between Sweden and Norway, but they are in
severe danger. The Norwegian sheep farmers have the stated goal to
exterminate the race. While wolves are a totally protected species,
wolves that have killed livestock once loses this protection (and
another wolf hunt is organized). Far more worrying, nothing prevents
the hundreds, thousands of farmers to take a pot shot at the remaining
wolves, the last hobby hunter caught got a laughable 15 000$
fine, there are no prison terms. Noone found the killer of the last
wolf, and farmers can pool their resources, making the extermination of
wolves risk free. Or, better, if the wolf walks within a few meters
of some of their farm animals, they could *legally* kill it in
"self-defence" (which by Norwegian wildlife statutes extend to farm
animals in risk of being attacked).

If the program told what has happened, *and is happening*, in Norway
(and to a lesser extent Sweden), it would be very sad indeed.

I don't think there has been much hysteria against (or enthusiasm for)
hybrids in Scandinavia, so I can't see that as a reason, though that
unrational fear of wolves as killers and competitors may possibly be
seen as the same thing.

I prefer wolves in the wild, though captive wolves are good for
protecting the genetic stock (and good companions for the humans). It
does give me a few aestethical qualms, of the Brave New World kind. BNW
(unlike 1984) was a world that did solve humanity's problems at the
sacrifice of its dignity. Please don't take this smidgen of unease as
an attack, I am sure you treat wolves (and hybrids) with respect, but
this makes me reserved in *the propagation* of hybrids as pets.
Especially if (as might easily happen) they were presented as
glorified dogs.

Jonny

> Jim Morris, Email: jegm@esd.sgi.com  Voice: (415) 390-5136

Xref: sparky alt.wolves:33 rec.pets.dogs:9185
From: hunter@work.nlm.nih.gov (Larry Hunter)
Newsgroups: alt.wolves,rec.pets.dogs
Subject: Re: Dogs & Renting (was: response to rec.pets.dogs FAQ)
Date: 31 Jul 92 15:31:44 GMT
	<HUNTER.92Jul30090049@work.nlm.nih.gov> <Bs7oz5.4rx@well.sf.ca.us>
Organization: National Library of Medicine


Kathleen Creighton says:

    Renter's insurance *does not cover* damage done by a dog.  There is no
    way (repeat:  no way) for a renter to insure or bond against potential
    dog damage.  If an *insurance agent* tells you it's covered, call the
    company direct and ask.  We talked to all of the major carriers and
    were told it is explicitly *not covered*.

My GEICO renter's policy has ($ amount limited) coverage to damage to the
landlord's property by _any_ cause (excluding only neglegence, maliciousness or
criminal activity on my part).  I explicitly asked about damage caused by our
pets and GEICO said it was covered.  I have no claims experience, though.

Larry

--
Lawrence Hunter, PhD.
National Library of Medicine
Bldg. 38A, MS-54
Bethesda. MD 20894
(301) 496-9300
(301) 496-0673 (fax)
hunter@nlm.nih.gov (internet)