From: lfoard@Turing.ORG (Lawrence C. Foard)
Subject: Re: Limiting religious speech
Organization: The Turing Project, Charlottesville Virginia.
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 23:05:49 GMT

In article <AULTJ.92Aug25131548@caleb.rpi.edu> aultj@rpi.edu (Jim Ault) writes:
>In article <1992Aug22.000004.8112@leland.Stanford.EDU> yergeau@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dan Yergeau) writes:
>
>   |> This idea that anything or anyone that accepts state money is an
>   |> extension of the government is ridiculous.  
>
>   Yep.  But that doesn't give free reign for those formally employed
>   by the state and acting on behalf of the state to do whatever they
>   please.
>
>Or even exercise their right to freely exercise their religion.  The
>"establishment clause" in the hands of the liberals is being wielded
>as a weapon in attempts to fully extinguish the "free exercise clause"
>for those that believe in the Judeo-Christian God.

While there are a few cases of seperation of church and state being taken
to far this is the exception and not the norm. Christianity nor any other
religion should not expect official recognition.

>Whatever they please, you say?
>
>A school teacher in Denver was silently reading his Bible to himself
>during quiet time in class.  He never read the Bible to his students,
>or even told them what he was reading.  The Supreme Court recently let
>stand, without comment, a ruling by a District Court that upheld the
>following actions:
>
>1. The teacher was forbidden to read his own Bible silently to himself
>in class, or to leave it lying on his desk.

Assuming it didn't interfere with his teaching I would have to disagree
with this position. As long as the teacher is allowed to read other books
on there free time I see no reason to single out books.

>2. Two books (related to children's Bible stories) were ordered
>removed from the bookshelf of the classroom.  Books on Greek mythology
>and other religions were allowed to remain on the shelf.

This is getting closer to the borderline. I see no problem with the
biblical mythology being presented along with greek mythology so
long as no claim is made for them being something other than mythology.

>If you (plural) can't see that this is open hostility to Christianity,
>and only Christianity, then I am amazed and ashamed that we as a
>country have fallen this far. 

Of course Christians have no problem doing worse to others. What would
you think if teachers where required to teach that Christianity is immoral
and wrong? Just such a law is being proposed in Oregon, it would require
teachers to teach the Fundementalist dogma concerning homosexuality.

>In article <1992Aug21.232801.4697@m.cs.uiuc.edu> kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie) writes:
>
>   Note the double standard. "Pornographic material" is not banned from
>   the traditional library (presumably because the library is protected
>   by academic freedom), but it is banned from computers (presumably
>   because academic freedom doesn't protect computers.)
>
>Note the double standard.  "Religious speech" is supposedly supported
>by the First Amendment, but it is banned from public schools
>(presumably because the freedom to exercise religion doesn't extend to
>public schools).

I've never seen an attempt to stop discussions among students about
religion, nor would I support such attempts.

>In article <1992Aug22.031724.6759@m.cs.uiuc.edu> kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie) writes:
>
>   Nadine Strossen, President of the ACLU, said much the same thing in a
>   speech:
>
>   >From: greeny@top.cis.syr.edu (J. S. Greenfield)
>   >Newsgroups: alt.censorship
>   >Subject: Re: On the other hand (was: Stopping vehement hate posting)
>   >Date: 27 Mar 92 02:09:16 GMT
>   [...]
>   >
>   >   "First, as we've seen, it's impossible to draw narrow regulations
>   >precisely specifying the particular words and contexts which should lead
>   >to sanctions. 
>
>Unless, of course, the Supreme Court is busy deciding exactly what
>kinds of religious words spoken by which people in which contexts are
>deemed to be "coercion" and are therefore to be banned.
>
>If a teenager is supposedly mature enough to decide whether or not to
>have an abortion, don't you think that they could discern between a
>ceremonial prayer and proselytizing?

How would you feel if the graduation speaker used a pagan prayer? After
all Pagans have the freedom of speech to...

>More than that, because The Supreme Court has begun the process of deciding
>which kinds of religious speech are acceptable and which are not, they
>are far further along toward "establishing" a religion (or rather an
>animosity toward Christianity) than you think.

There is nothing wrong with requiring that official speech take a neutral
view toward religion. After all if we are going to officially sanction
a religion why not go for something more interesting than Christianity,
I bet a satanist prayer in the school assembly would go over well :-)

>Enforced secularism is not the same as religious pluralism. 

Its enforced on the government not on individuals, teachers have the right
to say whatever they want when they are not representatives of the
government.

>In article <1992Aug22.000004.8112@leland.Stanford.EDU> yergeau@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dan Yergeau) writes:
>
>   |> I will end with a quote from George Will (June 28, 1992) about the Lee
>   |> v. Weisman decision:
>
>   Ooooh.  George Will.  Now there's a voice to quote from when you want
>   to get a liberal to see your viewpoint.
>
>No, my hopes of getting liberals to see my viewpoint (or the flaws in
>their own viewpoints) were dashed many articles ago.  I was just
>trying to ask a question, pull out my yardstick and measure the
>so-called 'liberalism' of the net by the responses.  Looks like I need
>hip-boots to wade through it all.
>
>My hope is that Usenet is not a representative sample of the people of
>the world: The fact that a large proportion of people on Usenet (or
>even in academia) seem to hold radical liberal values may not be
>indicative of the rest of the world.

Well lets let prayer into school, just make sure that all religions are
represented. After all why shouldn't Pagan's, Moslems, etc get there
chance to lead the school in prayer?

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