From: YANJUNA@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu
Subject: Re: the linear time thing - (spoiler?)
Organization: Yale University
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 93 03:34:28 EST

In article <1993Jan8.152815.13988@wdl.loral.com>
trw@spl1.spl.loral.com (Tim R Witort) writes:
 
>
>In article <x_!3n+m@rpi.edu>, ruderg@aix.rpi.edu (Gregory Allen Ruderman) writes:
>|> In article <16B4FDE92.YANJUNA@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu> YANJUNA@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu writes:
>|> >In article <1993Jan7.181650.27424@aio.jsc.nasa.gov>
>|> >andy rogers <rogers@ial3.jsc.nasa.gov> writes:
>|> >
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>|> >>if the creatures experienced all time simultaneously, then they already had
>|> >>squirted the commander out as far as they could tell. why did they give him
>|> >>such hell about his kind and intentions when they already experienced the
>|> >>whole thing. many other paradoxes boggle.
>|> >>
>|> >   They seemed to have at least one concept of time... Before Sisko met
>|> >them and after.  (I don't really want to list all the logical inconsistencies
>|> >I catched; I'm sure other people here will do it better than I can.)
>|> >   The linear time idea as presented in DS9 was not very logical at all;
>|> >it only works as an exposition of Sisko's character; OR the aliens turn
>|> >out to be benevolent psychoanalysts... :)
>|> >   Major flaw on DS9's part, but IMO not enough to destroy my interest.
>|> >
>|> 	Now wait a sec.  What we do know is that the aliens have no concept
>|> of linear time.  Not that they exist in all times simultaneously.  Try this
>|> (addmittedly ad hoc) explanation on for size:  The wormhole aliens do not
>|> deal with time in a linear fashion, however from the indications we saw in the
>|> episode, they do seem to be acted upon by linear time.  For example, the aliens
>|> closed the wormhole _after_ the Cardassian ship went through.  If they truly
>|> were not acted upon by linear time, they could have closed it before.  As for
>|> whether they knew Sisco's future (or their own for that matter) I think that
>|> their nature gives them something like a catalog of experiences which they can
>|> experience in any order, whenever or however often they chose, but since they
>|> are acted upon by linear time, as time passes, their "catalog" grows, although
>|> they do not have to read from the catalog in a linear fashion.  This way, they
>|> do not know what happenens in the future.
>
>   It sure SOUNDED like they lived outside of the time dimension.  They
>seemed more puzzled by the fact that humans couldn't tell what was going
>to happen than by anything else.  The fact that the future is not known
>to us was our major weakness/strength.  If we can accept FTL travel and
>all of the other impossiblilities, why not a being (or beings) for whom
>time is the same sort of dimension as length or width is for us.  For them
>it would have no specific direction.  And there are even MORE dimensions
>than the 4 that we are bound by!
>   The reason that there seemed to be a linear nature to their knowledge
>of Sisco and the opening and closing of the worm hole is that WE are
>time-bound beings - it seems to US that we are just meeting this new
>being now, but to them EVERYTHING is NOW, just as they said.  Everything
>being "now" is the byproduct of living beyond the dimension of time.
>   This idea was not so hard to accept/grasp.  Anyone who has seriously
>contemplated the nature of God has pondered on these ideas for a long
>time.... hmmmm.... did I say "time" again?
>
 
    I thought about that portrayal, and actually rejected it.  If the aliens
did see time as a complete   full dimension, then it seems to me, Sisko's
explanation is irrelevant.  Consider a two dimensional being looking at a
box.  The two dimensional being sees a line; the three dimensional being
sees series of lines piled on top of each other.  It has already been "shaped"
and the two-dimensional creature cannot see it, but is doomed to follow it.
    The time-analogue of this idea would (IMO)
be that the aliens KNOW that Sisko will explain all this concept to them,
in effect, they know it before they meet Sisko, but they have to go through
the motion to maintain the integrity (sp?) of time.  In one sense, then,
the aliens are a prisoner of time; they have no free will in this particular
time sense.  (Perhaps imaginary time? It's 3:05pm + 30i min... :))
This concept seems to be the only one which fits (to my tastes), but it
really does not appeal to me, because then ANY illogical or irrational
actions taken by the aliens will make sense (i.e. it was preordained).
   While aliens need not act with *human* logic, I want the *alien* logic
to involve some closer element to *human* logic, so that we can actually
try to understand what they are doing, rather than just relying on the
deus ex machina of "preordinated actions."
   A more complex version of this problem was involved in the Dune series,
and I consider that to be one of the flaws (IMHO) of the Herbert's series.
 
   Junsok Yang
 
 
>-- Tim
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