From: noonan@mksol.dseg.ti.com (Michael P Noonan)
Subject: Re: Slavery Analogy
Organization: Texas Instruments
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 21:00:45 GMT

In article <1992Dec30.184040.16085@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>, gjh@galen.med.Virginia.EDU (Galen J. Hekhuis) writes:
|> In article <1992Dec30.154352.1669@mksol.dseg.ti.com> noonan@mksol.dseg.ti.com (Michael P Noonan) writes:
|> }In article <1992Dec30.025734.24975@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>, gjh@galen.med.Virginia.EDU (Galen J. Hekhuis) writes:
|> 
|> }|> Umh, without law there is no slavery.
|> }|>      without law there is abortion.
|> 
|> }You oversimplified.  
|> 
|> Quite true.  I did it for Gregg Skinner's benefit, but I see it
|> confused you.  Sorry about that.
|> 
|> }Your example pointed out that without law, the
|> }weak cannot enslave the strong.  I was trying to stress that without
|> }law, the strong can and will enslave the weak.
|> 
|> Unless they run away.

If they could run away, then they would be in a position of strength;
they had some means of resistance (that of fleeing).

|> }So without law, there is slavery of the weak.
|> 
|> If someone forces the weak to return to that state.  Oh, but
|> there are no laws requiring that.  So without law, slavery
|> of the weak is possible, but is rather difficult to maintain.

I was thinking along the lines of a more distant time frame when
slavery was common in every society, before there were large
governments to act one way or the other, and before there was
codified law.  This is what I thought you meant by "without law."

|> It requires a certain watchfulness, or people acting together,
|> or something.  Often, it is a law or statute that enables
|> that condition.  Abortion requires no such legal maneuverings
|> or cooperation.  Perhaps that (rather fundamental) difference
|> escapes you.

It does still escape me, because I believe that there was slavery
before Hammurabi's Code, etc.  These were the times before law,
and there most definitely were slaves.

|> }You stated there was no slavery of the strong and concluded that
|> }there is no slavery, period.
|> 
|> Not on your tin-type!  I stated that without law there was no
|> slavery.  I did not assert that there was no slavery and did 
|> not conclude that.   I used an example of weak vs strong to
|> illustrate that usually an external force (often the law)
|> was necessary in that condition.

I restate my assertion to take into account your protest:

    You stated *that without law* there was no slavery of the strong
    and concluded that *without law* there is no slavery, period.

I found fault with your logic.  Correct me if I misunderstand.

[snip]
|> }I am not trying to say that slavery and abortion are equal.  I am
|> }merely trying to point out that there is precedent for law to protect
|> }underrepresented parties.
|>
|> OK.  Examples or satistics have never been cited as to the
|> protective effect of anti-abortion legislation.  Perhaps
|> you would like to be the first?

Well, I don't have access to a pile of stat books, and I have been
informed by another poster that this diminishes my credibility
somewhat.  Perhaps you could bear with me for the sake of discussion?

PA   = # of Potential Abortions/year with anti-abortion laws enforced
     = # of current successful abortions/year
IAdm = # of botched Illegal Abortions/year that result in Death of the Mother
IAdf = # of successful Illegal Abortions/year (i.e. Death of the Fetus)
TLS  = # of Lives Saved by enforcing anti abortion legislation

  PA - IAdm - IAdf = TLS

**Begin Speculation**
The last statistic I heard regarding number of abortions performed
in the United States was somewhere around the mark of 1.5 million.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the number is around there
somewhere.  Thus, PA would be (generous) 1 million.  The stat I
heard from Romania was that 10,000 women had died in 29 years?
Let's say that 10,000 women will die from botched abortions each
year in the U.S.  How many successfull, illegal abortions must
there be to make enforcement of anti-abortion legislation a net
good?  990,000.  I don't believe the number would be that high,
since the number of abortion practitioners would decrease dramatically.
**End Speculation**

If TLS = Total Lives Saved = positive number, then enforcement of
anti-abortion laws is successful.

Now before you *flame* me on figures, I ask that you present some
yourself or point out where you think I have made mistakes.  I
know I can't demand statistics from you if I provide none myself,
but I'd love to see any you might have anyway. I'm on this forum
to learn about the issue.  If I knew all the stats, I wouldn't be
here.  I'd be slugging it out on the streets one way or the other.

|> --
|>        hang gliding mailing list: hang-gliding-request@virginia.edu 
|>      Galen Hekhuis  UVa Health Sci Ctr (804)982-1646 gjh@virginia.edu
|>                   Illiterate?  Write for FREE help...

Mike Noonan