From: conditt@tsd.arlut.utexas.edu (Paul Conditt)
Subject: Re: Dancing with commitment & dating & sex
Organization: Applied Research Laboratories, University of Texas at Austin
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 23:27:48 GMT

In article <1993Jan26.205409.18791@cbnews.cb.att.com> ajw@cbnews.cb.att.com (andrew.j.whitman) writes:
>In article <nestabro.728065938@nova> nestabro@nova.gmi.edu (Noel Estabrook) writes:
>>ajw@cbnews.cb.att.com (andrew.j.whitman) writes:
> 
>There's nothing new here, but I just want to emphasize that there's a
>difference between legalism and being faithful to God's Word.  I
>think legalism *is* a problem in the Church today.  Legalism *adds
>to* Scripture by enforcing specific rules and regulations where the
>Bible either offers no guidelines at all or offers only general
>principles which must be interpreted and applied by individuals.
>You may have noticed from previous postings that I don't have a
>real soft spot in my heart for such legalistic thinking :-) (aaaaarrgh!  
>That's three smilies in one week!  I hate words like "aaaarrgh" too!  
>And exclamation points!!  I don't know what's happening to me.)

Think of "aaarrrggghhhh" as being in the tone used by Tim Taylor.  It's
great, then :) <----there's that smiley.

>
>But that's not the same as obeying God's clear instructions in 
>Scripture.  Two of the Ten Commandments prohibit adultery and 
>coveting the wife of one's neighbor.  Jesus taught that even to
>*look* at a woman with lust in one's heart was the equivalent of
>adultery.  I don't see much room for debate there.  I may be a 
>bane to legalists and a communistic, hell-raisin', secular-rocknroll-
>lovin' guy, but any church that ignores those Scriptural commands
>is no church that I'd want to be a part of.
>
It's difficult when we talk about things like this in church, because
it's too easy to come across as condoning it.  When I say that I need
to be able to express my sexuality, people automatically assume that
I mean that I'm gonna go out and find me some woman to commit
fornication with (or worse yet, dancing).  However, that's not what I
mean.  What I'm after, as a single, hormone-filled and emotion-filled
young man, is a healthy view of what roles God intended sex and sexuality to 
have in our lives.  I'm tired of this "thou shalt not...." attitude and
that doesn't mean that I'm going to ignore specific commands, like Andy
has alluded to.  I feel that a healthy view of my sexuality will 
actually make it easier for me to resist sexual sin.

>Of course, that also means that I'm guilty of violating the same 
>standards that I want to so adamantly defend.  I haven't physically
>committed adultery, but that "looking at a woman with lust in the
>heart" one gets me every time.  And that's why whatever I have to
>say to those struggling with sexual sins had better be said in
>repentance and sadness.  In God's eyes I'm just as guilty.
> 
>>Unfortunately, I think many churches stop at the "I don't condemn
>>you" stage.  We feel that that is all that's necessary.  We don't
>>want them to feel like we're "judging" them.  The churches 
>>responsibility is to do both - make sure the sinner knows that they
>>are sinning and then encourage them to get out of the sin.  Then, if
>>the person continues in sin, deal with that person in a Scriptural
>>manner.

Along these same lines, I know that in God's eyes, sin is sin and there
is no difference as far as it's ability to damn us.  However, some sins
have worse consequences here on earth than others.  And some involve a
whole lot more of our being than others.  I know for me, it's a lot 
easier to clean my language up than it is to resist sexual temptation.
Our society bombards us with filthy language just as much as it does
with sex, but sex has a much tighter hold on me than does profanity.
I think that if we, in our churches, realized that sexual sin often is
not just a matter of self-control and that it involves our bodies,
our emotions, even our very souls.  So, yes, the sexual offender is a
sinner, but we all are and he is no worse or better than someone who
is unfaithful in their tithing or gluttons (hope I didn't step on any toes 
here).  I think what we need here is not necessarily a new kind of focus
on it from the pulpit, although that would help, but a new emphasis on
Christian family and community.  It would mean a lot to me to have an
older, wiser man counsel me in these areas.  Someone who's been where I
am and has gotten through it.  Someone who's made mistakes and learned
from them.  Someone who can contrast the difference between a sexual
relationship that's outside of God's will versus one that is in God's
will (marriage).  And it's not just singles who struggle with this.  I
think we'd be appalled at the number of married Christians who do not
have a healthy sexual relationship, whether it involved adultery or not.
I know of a recent example of a preacher who was put in jail for
soliciting a prostitute.  His comment was, "If you're not getting it at 
home, you gotta get it somewhere".  This may seem like a trite answer,
but God created us sexual beings, and to repress those urges and not
address the emotions behind them does us a lot of damage, even if it is
in the name of "being pure".

>
>I can't judge anyone in this area.  I fall under the same judgement.  
>And I see too many churches that are ready and willing to pronounce
>judgement, to exclude sinners from the fellowship, to treat its
>unwed mothers as a scourge or its divorcees as second-class citizens.

Obr.m.c.  Susan Ashton has a song on her latest, "Angels of Mercy" that
talks about a young mother who comes in to a church and sits on the
back row.  This woman has some hope of finding something that she needs,
but all she gets is accusing stares and judgmental overtones.  The song is
called "Silent As a Whisper".  Good stuff.

>On the other side I see too many churches that are willing to wink
>at sexual sin, to pretend that it's okay because everybody does 
>it, and to go on as if none of it matters to God.  
>
>But I'm guilty, and I can't rationalize or debate my way out of that
>one.  I suspect that most people are.  I'd rather stand with someone
>in his or her guilt than stand over and against them.  And I just 
>wish that people in the church had the freedom to discuss these
>issues openly and honestly instead of being cowed by fear or 
>lulled into a false apathy.  That's all. 

Amen, brother.  Preach on.  I brought up the idea of having a Bible
study led by a counselor from the Minirth-Meier Clinic on the topic of
sexuality, especially as it applies to singles.  I did this in a single's
study.  The response I got was much less than positive.  The class sponsor,
who is a man about 45 yrs old, replied that he'd support it, but couldn't
offer any insight since he's been married since he was 19.  One of the
single girls was adamant about studying it from the perspective of what
to do when you're in a committed relationship and how to exercise self-
control.  The others mostly just squirmed in their seats, and I know for
a fact that several of us would've benefitted greatly from such a study.
I didn't have the courage to pursue it, so now we're in a different study,
which is great, but doesn't touch on those issues at all.  We get all
bent out of shape when the issue of sex education comes up in our schools,
but very few Christian couples are willing to teach their own children.
Of all the single people I know, many of whom were brought up in strong
Christian households, none of them had their parents even sit down and
talk with them about sex once, much less creating an environment where it
could be discussed in a healthy and godly manner.

I know this is a big-time tangent, but the discussion has been very
encouraging to me.  I thank everyone for their input so far and their
patience in wading through these types of posts when they don't have a
strong correlation to Christian music.  This is a discussion that is 
long overdue and it encourages me to have it here, although I wish it
could be done in my Bible studies and in my fellowship.  Hopefully someday
soon it will be.

God bless.

Paul
>
>>--
>>Noel Estabrook			|	Knowledge without action is like
>>nestabro@nova.gmi.edu         --|--     snow on a hot stove.
>>Instructional Design & Tech.    |     
>>Michigan State University       |               Romans 12:2
>
>Andy Whitman
>AT&T Bell Laboratories, Columbus, Ohio
>att!cblpn!ajw  or
>ajw@cblpn.att.com