HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: steveo@custard.think.com (stephen anthony)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: Re: Battle of Bladensburg ad the potential razing of DC
Date: 31 Dec 92 14:01:50
Organization: Thinking Machines Corporation, Cambridge MA, USA
	<STEVEO.92Dec21122107@custard.think.com>
	<1992Dec30.201307.1@ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: custard.think.com
In-reply-to: cowan@ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu's message of 30 Dec 92 20:13:07 -0800

In article <1992Dec30.201307.1@ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu> cowan@ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu (P.L. Cowan) writes:

   In article <STEVEO.92Dec21122107@custard.think.com>, steveo@custard.think.com (stephen anthony) writes:
   > 
   > 
   >    I have never seen this discussed, but surely the disaster at the
   >    Battle of Bladensburg in the War of 1812 (and the subsequent burning
   >    of Washington by the British) must have figured strongly in the
   >    thinking on both sides regarding the defensibility of the Capital.
   >    Certainly the routs of the Union Army at 1st and 2nd Manassas must
   >    have had Lincoln worried that history would repeat itself.
   > 
   >    -- 
   >    Paul Cowan     
   > 
   > I'm not convinced that history would repeat itself so easily in this case.
   > I could be wrong, but L'Enfant designed the street intersections in DC
   > to create natural fortifications, and I don't think this was done to any
   > great extent by the War of 1812, whereas it was done to a great extent by
   > the Civil War. The Confederate army would have had a hard time making their
   > way into the core of the city, IMHO.
   > --
   > Steve Anthony                     |  "Ain't nobody gettin' outta here |

   I may be all wrong, but I thought L'Enfant's intention was to make Washington
   difficult to defend (specifially by a revolutionary mob). Thus the broad
   thoroughfairs, the criss-crossing diagonal avenues. My understanding was that 
   L'Enfant, working after the French Rovolution, wanted to avoid the fate that
   his native Paris had endured.

   -- 
   Paul Cowan     

I guess we're both hazy on this. My recollection comes from visiting the
Smithsonian (the original red sandstone building) where there are dioramas
of the stages of the building of DC. I seem to remember a number of
displays on what L'Enfant was trying to acheive. However, it has been a
number of years. Anyone else out there know this for real?
--
Steve Anthony                     |  "Ain't nobody gettin' outta here |
Software Engineer              	  |   with out singin' the blues"     |
(617) 234-4000                    |                                   |
steveo@think.com                  |  - Albert "The Iceman" Collins    |
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
From: pdunn@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Patrick L Dunn)
Subject: Info wanted: McCausland's Chambersburg Raid/McCausland autobiography
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 22:03:54 GMT

Does anybody know if there is an autobiography of CSA Gen. John McCausland?  
Also, I am looking for an account of his 1864 raid into Pennsylvania in which 
he burned the town of Chambersburg.

Thanks 1,000,000--

pDunn
From: jsanders@phys.ksu.edu (Justin M. Sanders)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: Re: "Lincoln" TV special
Date: 2 Jan 1993 05:24:27 GMT
Organization: Department of Physics, Kansas State University, Manhattan KS, USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: bohr.phys.ksu.edu

In article <1992Dec30.130856.1@ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu> 
cowan@ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu (P.L. Cowan) writes:
>
>This is from an article by Garry Wills (who has a book on the same
>subject) that appeared in the June 1992 issue of _The_Atlantic_. (If
>the group ever has a FAQ, perhaps... well, forget I opened my mouth)
>8^)
>

Let me put in an enthusiastic plug for Wills' book, "Lincoln At Gettysburg".
(BTW its a selection this month of the Quality Paperback Book Club).  Wills'
main point is on the literary aspects of the address, but he does a very
thorough job in giving the story of how the address came to be given and
how the version we are familiar with came to be written (the one we are
familiar with is a copy Lincoln made after the event and contains some
changes that were not in the speech as he gave it at Gettysburg).

Wills has also written (at least) 2 other books on the main documents
of American democracy.  I've read "Inventing America: Jefferson's Declaration
of Independence"-- it was very good.  It was written in 1976, and already
Wills was making a strong connection between the Declaration and the
Gettysburg address.

The other book of Wills is about the Federalist papers, but I don't recall
the title, nor have I read it.
--
Justin M. Sanders    
Dept. of Physics     "I could not fail to disagree with you less."
Kansas State Univ.                           -- Gabriel Weinreich
From: cowan@ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu (P.L. Cowan)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: <None>
Date: 22 Dec 92 07:43:38 -0800
Organization: SSRL, Stanford Synchrotron Radiation Lab
NNTP-Posting-Host: ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu

In article <1992Dec21.220354.8885@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, pdunn@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Patrick L Dunn) writes:
> Does anybody know if there is an autobiography of CSA Gen. John McCausland?  
> Also, I am looking for an account of his 1864 raid into Pennsylvania in which 
> he burned the town of Chambersburg.
> 
> Thanks 1,000,000--
> 
> pDunn

There is a recently published book on the burning of Chambersburg. I've seen it
in just about all bookstores in Maryland and Pennsylvania (including those at
the battlefields). The book (hardcover) is typically sealed in plactic, 
so I never looked inside. I don't know whether it is a recent work or a 
reprint. This probably isn't much to go on, except that you should be able 
to find it in Books in Print.

-- 
Paul Cowan     
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
   Please send replies, comments etc. (no flames thank you) to COWAN@ANL.GOV   
"If anyone disagrees with anything I say, I am quite prepared not only to
retract it, but also to deny under oath that I ever said it." Tom Lehrer
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
From: cjt1@ellis.uchicago.edu (Charles Ten Brink)
Subject: Re: Washington captured, not
Reply-To: cjt1@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 16:05:05 GMT

In article <BzM5Av.5A3@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> charbonn@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (gary charbonneau) writes:
>There's a biography of Early now in the bookstores which states that
>the defenders numbered just under 10,000 men.  Ordinarily, this would
>have been more than enough to face down Jubal, given the strength of
>the fortifications.  However, these troops were mostly a combination
>of members of the Veteran Reserve Corps (i.e., convalescents deemed
>unfit for field service) and 100-day state militiamen.

Thanks, this was the information that I was looking for.

>It is interesting to note that, since fortifications don't care who
>holds them, the works around Washington would have become an embarrassment
>to the Union if Early had taken the place, since he would have been the
>one on the inside.

A good point; we saw this happen in reverse at Corinth in October of 1862,
when Beauregard was held back, in part, by the earthworks he had constructed
while defending the city in May of that year.

>As to the point regarding alternative history, the canons of the historical
>profession (such as they are) forbid the asking of "what if" questions.
>This is methodologically sound, since there is ultimately no way that
>one can answer such questions.  Nevertheless, such questions will continue
>to fascinate.  I might also note that, unless you are allowed to ask
>"what if", you can't say that a general "made a mistake" in making
>this maneuver or that; he simply did what he did, and you can only
>say that what he did was a mistake if you are allowed to speculate
>about "what if" he had done something else.
>
I didn't mean to imply that I am so soulless as to lack the natural
fascination with alternatives to cold reality.  (After all, I'm the one
who thinks Aeschylus wrote the Civil War.)  I was only stating a preference
for the alternatives that hew closely to what we know.  (Now, if Santa
Claus had left coal in Lincoln's stocking at Christmas of '62, would Abe
still have issued the Proclamation the next week. . .?)
--Chuck


-- 
D'Angelo Law Library         "The dogmas of the quiet past are
cjt1@midway.uchicago.edu      inadequate to the stormy present. . .
uclcjt1@uchimvs1              We must disenthrall ourselves. . ."
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
From: trwagner@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (T. Robert Wagner)
Subject: NEED HELP in search for soldiers
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 00:26:14 GMT




	Hi.  I am a (green) Civil War reenactor and living historian.
I am currently assisting two sides of my family in our geneology.
We have gotten as far as 1870 or so.  (births).

	My goal is to find at least one relative, should not be hard, that
was in the Civil War.  Here is what I know....

	It is suspected that the Robinson's (one side of my mother's family)
came from England and were in some way loyalty.  A Robinson is said to have
served in the Revolutionary War.  The Robinsons' were from the Virginia
area and is said they had a plantation with slaves.

	On the Wells side (the other side of my mom's family) go back not
nearly as far.  The EARLIEST Wells was *ISAAC WELLS*.  The Wells' were mostly
from the Indiana/Illinois area.   


	If anyone has knowledge of either enlisted men or soldiers with
the last names of Robinson (in the Confederacy) or Wells (in the Union Army)
I'd appreciate a short note.  A name with their regiment and state is
sufficient.  I can do the other research later.  Both sides probably
fought with their state's respective regiments.

Thanks.


Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
From: afallen@lims02.lerc.nasa.gov (E. Allen Arrington)
Subject: Re: Three Generals of the "Old Army" (was Re: Grant in the East)
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: 1st Kentucky Cavalry Co. C
Date: 24 Dec 1992 08:57 EST  

In article <tecump.725141333@sulu>, tecump@sulu.ucsb.edu (Dominic J. Dal bello) writes...
>cowan@ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu (P.L. Cowan) writes:
>>>> 
>>>>--------------------- Bulk of message deleted -------------------
> 
>Joe Johnston was the Quartermaster Genl. as Paul said.  He needs no
>introduction.  Most prominent for fighting Sherman on the way to Atlanta,
>in the Carolina's and surrendering at Appomattox.

I don't think that Joe Johnston surrendered at Appomatox.  He surrendered 
his army to Sherman at Durham Station, North Carolina on April 17/18, 1865.

E. Allen Arrington  
        Trooper, 1st Kentucky Cavalry, Co. C 
        Mounted Memorial Unit                 
and Mason (can't wait for the spring campaign to start)
From: agwing@picasso.ocis.temple.edu (Andrew Wing)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: William Wing Loring
Date: 27 Dec 92 04:47:53 GMT
Organization: Temple University
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]

Carlton W. Andrews (cwa@sgfb.ssd.ray.com) wrote:

: Colonels (infantry, artillery, cavalry regiments):
:         15. William Wing Loring           age 43     [see note 2]
	Anyone have any good genealogical sources on Loring?  My father has
been searching unsuccessfully for years for a solid documented link to our
family.  TIA.

			Andy Wing
	P.S. sorry about the last reply, noisy phone lines...
--
v2002a@vm.temple.edu     (preferred)
v2002a%templevm.bitnet@pucc.princeton.edu
agwing@picasso.ocis.temple.edu    (last resort)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
From: charbonn@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (gary charbonneau)
Subject: Return of Captured Confederate Battle Flags
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 18:07:37 GMT

It appears that many captured Confederate battle flags wound up in
the statehouses and historical societies of various northern states.
I remember seeing one such flag in St. Paul, Minnesota (I think it was
in the capitol building, although it may have been in the Minnesota
Historical Society.

Over the years, many of these flags were "returned" to the southern
states (again, I presume to statehouses or historical societies).
Can anyone provide information about these returns?  I believe that
there was some kind of mass return of flags shortly after the turn of
the century, while others, I think, have occurred quite recently.

- Gary Charbonneau
  charbonn@silver.indiana.edu
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: Re: Banks and Trains
Date: 23 Dec 1992 01:02:15 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In article <tecump.725061988@tangent> tecump@tangent.ucsb.edu (Dominic J. Dal bello) writes:
>
>A very good and hilarious movie based on the [Andrews] raid stars Buster Keaton.
>

There was also a Disney live-action movie based on the raid that I recall
seeing in my childhood.  I don't remember the name, but I was rather
impressed with it at the time.  This one was serious and definitely
pro-Andrews.


Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
From: whale@leland.Stanford.EDU (Stephen Schmidt)
Subject: Re: Senior Union Officers at Start of War
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 92 23:01:53 GMT

In article <1992Dec24.170803.9928@rayssd.ssd.ray.com> cwa@sgfb.ssd.ray.com (Carlton W. Andrews) writes:

>         2. John Ellis Wool               age 72

Had command around Newport News for the Union Army in 1862 as part of
McCLlellan's Peninsular Campaign. I don't know where he went after that...

>        13. Edmund Brooke Alexander        55-60; West Point graduate

Not the same Alexander who commanded Longstreet's artillery; that was E.
Porter Alexander. Much younger fellow.

>        18. Philip St. George Cooke        50-60; West Point graduate

Commanded a Confederate brigade at 1st Bull Run, I believe he retired in
the winter of 1861 (?).

For the curious, Lee's Lieutenant's gives a pretty complete listing of
where the US Army's officers wound up, and a complete list for those
from Virginia. I believe it's in an appendix to Volume 1.
-- 
Steve Schmidt			<><		   whale@leland.stanford.edu
I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist
indoctrination, Communist subversion, and the international Communist
conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids!
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
From: charbonn@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (gary charbonneau)
Subject: Re: <None>
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 17:32:51 GMT

In article <1992Dec22.074338.1@ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu> cowan@ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu (P.L. Cowan) writes:
>In article <1992Dec21.220354.8885@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, pdunn@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Patrick L Dunn) writes:
>> Does anybody know if there is an autobiography of CSA Gen. John McCausland?  
>> Also, I am looking for an account of his 1864 raid into Pennsylvania in which 
>> he burned the town of Chambersburg.
>> 
>> Thanks 1,000,000--
>> 
>> pDunn
>
>There is a recently published book on the burning of Chambersburg. I've seen it
>in just about all bookstores in Maryland and Pennsylvania (including those at
>the battlefields). The book (hardcover) is typically sealed in plactic, 
>so I never looked inside. I don't know whether it is a recent work or a 
>reprint. This probably isn't much to go on, except that you should be able 
>to find it in Books in Print.
>
>-- 
>Paul Cowan     

Right.  Southern Revenge: The Confederate Burning of Chambersburg,
Pennsylvania, 1989.  200p., $29.95.  Available from White Mane
Publishing Company, Inc., P.O. Box 152, Shippensburg, PA 17251.

- Gary Charbonneau
  charbonn@silver.indiana.edu
From: tecump@sulu.ucsb.edu (Dominic J. Dal bello)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: Re: exit
Date: 29 Dec 92 21:50:49 GMT

whale@leland.Stanford.EDU (Stephen Schmidt) writes:

stuff deleted

>Again, Britain found time to get involved in Crimea. Also at this point in
>time, Britain's colonies are relatively quiet and aren't giving her much
>trouble. France would not have gone in without British naval help, but I think
>the British had that to spare. I don't think they needed British land forces
>as long as the Russian army was in on the deal, which it would presumably
>have been.

ah, but the Crimea was of importance to Europe.  It was "closer"
i dont think the Czar would send his own forces over.

>I disagree with this, the British had been impressing American seaman into
>the Royal Navy in 1812, starting a war with the US. The flagrant violation
>of the "rights" of neutral shipping by the British had been a sticking point
>between the US and Britain for a long time. I don't think breaking the US
>blockade would've hurt Britain's international reputation.
 
if the British had broken the Federal blockade, as being "illegal," how could
it justify its use of its own navy in such a matter, perhaps in the future.
the PRESENT is not the only thing that must be considered, but the future as
well

dd
:
From: rrw@.cse.nau.edu (Bob Wier)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: Red River Campaign (1864)
Date: 28 Dec 92 23:59:37 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Northern Arizona University, Flagstaff AZ
Originator: rrw@sunset.cse.nau.edu

I have a direct ancestor who was killed in May, 1864 in the
Red River Campaign in Lousiana.  If there is anyone here who
is familiar with the campaign, I'd be interested in exchanging
notes.

THANKS!

- Bob Wier

  ---------- insert favorite standard disclaimers here ----------
                   College of Engineering
      Northern Arizona University, Flagstaff Arizona
  Internet: rrw@naucse.cse.nau.edu | WB5KXH | fax:602 523 2300
From: dickwin@sequent.com (Dick Winningstad)
Subject: Grant's Memoirs
Organization: Sequent Computer Systems, Inc.
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 93 21:03:13 GMT

I just finished the Library of America edition of Personal Memoirs of
U.S. Grant.

Excellent book showing Grant's grasp of strategic and political
aspects of his command(s).

One thing I would suggest for any one reading this book is when you
reach Vol II, read the Appendix, Report of Lt.  Gen.  U.S.  Grant of
the United States Armies 1864-65, first.  The report gives a concise
overview of the detailed description of his activities covered in the
second volume of his memoirs.

Now what to read next, Sherman's memoirs or Longstreet's.  I think
Longstreet's to get a balanced perspective.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+Dick Winningstad                                                    +
+                    Italian Wines are Fine                          +
+          I'd rather be on a Moto Guzzi in eastern Oregon.          +
+dickwin@sequent.com                                                 +
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
From: tecump@tangent.ucsb.edu (Dominic J. Dal bello)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: Re: Three Generals of the "Old Army" (was Re: Grant in the East)
Date: 21 Dec 92 21:26:17 GMT

cowan@ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu (P.L. Cowan) writes:
>>>I never heard this before. Obviously one was Lt.Gen. (Brevet) Scott and 
>>>another was the Quartermaster General, Brig. Gen. Joe Johnston. Was the other
>>>one Sumner?
>> 
>> What about Henry Halleck?
>> 

>Come to think of it, I believe that A.S. Johnston was promoted to Brig. Gen
>shortly before the war (to elevate his status in dealing with the Mormons). 
>Dom, could your confirm your statistic? Perhaps "prior to the war" does not 
>mean "at the time of Fort Sumter" which is what I inferred.

I will look it up.  it is in one of my (more books than i will ever read)
collection on CW books.

i do know the following.
At the beginning of the war, there were 16,000 officers and men in the
federal army, of which 1,000 were officers, of which 3 were generals - which
i still have to look up.  I will.  :)

dom

Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
From: charbonn@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (gary charbonneau)
Subject: Re: Washington captured, not
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 14:23:19 GMT


>I'm beginning to ramble, so let me get to my point, which is a request
>for information.  I've seen a lot of references to Grant 'stripping' the 
>defenses of Washington.  Just how many men were left to hold the forts 
>around D.C.?  The discussion has proceeded as if Early could simply have
>waltzed on by the earthworks without a pause, in the absence of the 
>divisions sent from Petersburg.  I'm willing to admit that these divisions
>were required to *hold* the forts, but it seems to me that, given the
>quality of the fortifications, a bunch of postal and patent clerks could
>still have given Early a hell of a battle.
>--Chuck

There's a biography of Early now in the bookstores which states that
the defenders numbered just under 10,000 men.  Ordinarily, this would
have been more than enough to face down Jubal, given the strength of
the fortifications.  However, these troops were mostly a combination
of members of the Veteran Reserve Corps (i.e., convalescents deemed
unfit for field service) and 100-day state militiamen.

The same source notes that there was some report put out in 1862 which
stated that 37,000 men were required to man the Washington fortifications
(against what size threat is not clear). Since the circumference of the
works was 37 miles, the calculation at work is quite clear -- 1000 men/
mile.

When Early first arrived at the city, every attempt was made to bluff
him into believing that the garrison was more powerful than it was
(troops were told to blaze away without regard to wasting ammunition, etc.).

It is interesting to note that, since fortifications don't care who
holds them, the works around Washington would have become an embarrassment
to the Union if Early had taken the place, since he would have been the
one on the inside.

As to the point regarding alternative history, the canons of the historical
profession (such as they are) forbid the asking of "what if" questions.
This is methodologically sound, since there is ultimately no way that
one can answer such questions.  Nevertheless, such questions will continue
to fascinate.  I might also note that, unless you are allowed to ask
"what if", you can't say that a general "made a mistake" in making
this maneuver or that; he simply did what he did, and you can only
say that what he did was a mistake if you are allowed to speculate
about "what if" he had done something else.

- Gary Charbonneau
  charbonn@silver.indiana.edu







Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa