HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Wagner and Jews?
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 03:35:21 GMT

In article <Bz882K.7IH@dscomsa.desy.de> Hallam@zeus02.desy.de writes:
>In article <1992Dec9.035130.17703@Princeton.EDU>, roger@crux.Princeton.EDU
>(Roger Lustig) writes:
>|>Up to a point.  After 1942, Siegfried and Goetterdaemmerung
>|>were found to predict The End too strngly, and were not performed at 
>|>Bayreuth.  (Of course, it took real idiots to identify 
>|>with Wagner's Old regime of gods in the first 
>|>place, but nobody ever accused  the Nazis of intellectual
>|>subtlety...)

>Nope, not with the Gods, with Siegfried, pure ayrian hero and all that claptrap.
>And >he< came to a very sticky end indeed.
>
>It seems to me that Wagner's anti-Semitism was certainly no worse than the
>attitude of the likes of Kahane. Only Wagner had the excuse of living in a
>rather more bigotted age and the redeeming feature of being able to write some
>of the most sublime music ever written.

I think that's a little easy on him.  Wagner was one of the originators of
anti-Semitic thought, one of the promoters of racial theories of character,
of pseudo-Darwinist ideas about breeding, and a supporter of the further
development of this train of thought by the likes of Count Gobineau and 
Wagner's son-in-law Houston Stewart Chamberlain.  In his later writings
Wagner came close to advocating the Final Solution.   His writings set the
tone for much that followed, and his age was as bigoted as it was partly
because of his efforts.

Kahane, for all his hatemongering, never developed a racial theory
of "Arab" characteristics, of genetic reasons why Arabs were evil,
etc.  Nor did he call for more than the expulsion of Arabs from
Israel (though that would be an atrocity).  

Roger

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: "alexander inglis" <alexander.inglis@canrem.com>
Subject: how to read orchestral sc
Reply-To: "alexander inglis" <alexander.inglis@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: rec
Date: 16 Dec 92 11:21:20 EST

RFAL>  I have a few questions on how to read orchestral scores.
    >1.  How can a person read a whole page of notes at once and knows how it
    >  sounds? I can read a Bruckner symphony with relative ease due to its
    >  block structure. I need the music on and I can not read all the lines
    >  at once. I need to follow the melody. A complex Mahler symphony is too
    >  difficult to read for me.
    >2. Is it possible to self-train in score reading? Almost all my musical
    >  knowledge I know I learned on my own, by reading books and trial and err
    >  If this is so, what is the proper way to do?way
    >3. In order to do serios musical criticism on interpretation we must learn
    >  read orchestral scores. Is this true? This is the feeling I get from lis
    >to classical music for the past nine years.

It is worth drawing a distinction between score "reading" and score
"following". Reading is the ability to absorb all the details, and in
particular without outside aid (ie. "reading" while the music is
playing). Following is an altogether less skilled practice.

The enlightened listener, sooner or later, will encounter a score,
orchestral or otherwise. This is usually an exciting experience and
there's a lot to be gained by learning to score "follow". Unless you are
planning to actually play the notes, or engage in musicological
research, following will provide great rewards.

Score following while listening to the music helps concentrate your
mind. You'll "see" and "hear" many more details than you ever had
before. Patterns will spring to life visually that you'll now be able to
hear. Listen again, and you''ll find yourself enjoying the bassoon line
-- you may never have actually heard it before.

Music has become altogether too isolated from the common man:
specialization in our lives discourages us from being generalists. You
don't need to have studied all (or any) of the instruments of the
orchestra to get more enjoyment out of perusing a score.

There are countless treasures awaiting you! Dig in!

Alexander Inglis  |  InterNet: alexander.inglis@canrem.com
Toronto,  Canada  |  CompuServe: 70307,20     BIX: ainglis
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: tony@cns.nyu.edu (Tony Movshon)
Subject: Re: Most drawn-out ending (Was: Best endings)
Reply-To: tony@cns.nyu.edu
Organization: New York University
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 04:33:32 GMT

In article 4363@cronkite.ocis.temple.edu, zorro@picasso.ocis.temple.edu (John Grabowski) writes:
> 
> I'm gonna get flamed for this, but...
> 
> Beethoven's 5th Symphony.
> 
> Sounds like it's going to wrap up about five different times in the finale.

For a Fifth that sounds like it'll never end, try Tchaikovsky's. For my
money, the finales of Bruckner's and Mahler's Fifths also go on too long.
Maybe it's a numerical problem.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
					Tony Movshon

Internet:  movshon@nyu.edu		Howard Hughes Medical Institute
					Center for Neural Science
					New York University
Phone:	   (212) 998-7880		4 Washington Place, room 809
Fax:	   (212) 995-4183		New York, NY 10003
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: terjer@ifi.unit.no (Terje Rydland)
Subject: Re: Virgin Classics, R.I.P. (was: Re: Britten: A Midsummer Night's...)
Followup-To: rec.music.classical
Organization: IfI, UNIT-AVH
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 09:19:29 GMT

In article <1992Dec12.232346.7430@u.washington.edu>,
allyn@milton.u.washington.edu (Allyn Weaks) wrote:
> 
> conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad) writes:
> >persistent reports of a new recording made a couple years ago by Virgin
> >Classics (cond. Hickox, with Gomez, D Jones, Watson, Bowman,
> >Graham-Hall, etc.).  It sounds like it might be nice, but if it exists,
> >Virgin has been sitting on the tapes forever.  And they ARE releasing
> >their stuff under the EMI umbrella now.
> 
> Sad to say, Virgin Classics is no more.  They weren't just releasing their
> things under the EMI brolly - they were bought outright, and have now been
> discontinued.  Whether EMI will release or rerelease much of the catalog,
> or when, is anyone's guess at this point.

I bought the last Classic CD the other day, and in the new releases section
I found Virgins recording of Poulencs "Les dialogues des Carmelites" (or
something like that).
So it seems as though at least some of Virgins recordings will be released.

Terje Rydland
Dept. of Informatics, UNIT, Trondheim, Norway
Internet : terjer@ifi.unit.no
AppleLink: NOR0103
Tlf : +47-7-591845
Fax : +47-7-591733
From: yoshi@hpjsdo.kobe.hp.com (Kazuo Yoshizaki)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 01:33:48 GMT
Subject: Re: pianists
Organization: HP Asia Pasific Product Operations - Kobe, Japan
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical

>
>Is it my imagination or are we in a time singularly short of good pianists?
>In the last 15 years, we have seen the deaths of Rubinstein, Horowitz, Arrau, 

Could anybody tell me when Arrau died? 

K. Yoshizaki (yoshi@hpjsdo.kobe.hp.com)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: mikulska@astro.Princeton.EDU (Margaret Mikulska)
Subject: Re: why no women composers (was Re: FINAL FINAL THOUGHTS !!
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: mikulska@astro.princeton.edu (Margaret Mikulska)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 13:55:11 GMT

In article <VuLLVB1w165w@cybernet.cse.fau.edu> elmo@cybernet.cse.fau.edu (Yuri Villanueva) writes:
>
>It's not just composition either.  Look at any record shop and you'll find
>that most of the names on the CDs are male.  I don't recall hearing about
>any female conductors on the recordings.  

We covered this topics recently (women conductors, that is).

>At least 90% of the pianists,
>violinists, etc. are men.  Yes, even among the 14- to 19-year-old wunderkind
>pianists -- nope, no girls there.

Pianists, no - but among wunderkind violinists you forgot Midori.

-Margaret
From: plcdib@bristol.ac.uk (C D I Bertram)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Wagner and Jews?
Date: 16 Dec 92 10:34:19 GMT
Organization: University of Bristol, England


What is the evidence that Richard Strauss was a Nazi? None, so far as I
know. He was appointed (against his will and without his consent) to
some position as I remember, but he never expressed anti-semitic views
and was appalled at Nazi bans on him working with Jews. Maybe he should 
have left the country, but the fact that he didn't do so at quite an
old age hardly makes him a Nazi. I remember reading somewhere that
he was a social democrat during Weimar.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: davidu@space.mit.edu (David T S Um)
Subject: EVER SO SMALL A RECOMMENDATION WANTED
Keywords: Beethoven, Bagatelle
Organization: MIT Center for Space Research
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 13:18:28 GMT


Hello,


	I have just become enamored of Beethoven's little confection, the
Bagatelle Op. 126 #3.  Although it doesn't even last three minutes, I am
willing to overlook other considerations in purchasing a CD which has an
excellent rendering of this piece.


	These are the ones I have heard:

	Andras Schiff in his pre-London days (perhaps Hungaroton)
	Melvyn Tan on Beethoven's Broadwood (probably on EMI)
	Alfred Brendel on an old VOX vinyl LP set of all LvB's piano pieces
	Stephen Bishop-Kovacevich (sp?) on Philips Concert Classics

	
	I'm an engineer, not a musicologist, but allow me to try and explain 
the qualities for which I am looking.  I would like energetic and agile 
playing, with a dash of humor in the allegro sections.  There should be poise
and gracefulness between the transitions of the various themes.  And perhaps
most importantly, the pianist should have a vibrant sense of the piece's
rhythmic moods.  If this doesn't make any sense, then simply, I would like 
something resembling Tan's performance above played on a modern concert grand. 
	 


						Thanks in Advance,

						Dave




P.S.  Making reference to an ongoing thread, does anyone know if a Richter
recording of this bagatelle is out on CD?



-- 
David T S Um ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ MIT Center for Firmament (Space) Research
davidu@Space.MIT.edu ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Cambridge MA ~~~~~~~~ Tel: (617) 253-9342
************** The heavens declare the glory of God; **************************
****************** and the firmament sheweth His handiwork! **** (Ps 19:1, KJV)
From: richardw@hub.parallan.com (Richard Walter)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Virtuoso composers
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 92 17:48:26 PST
Organization: Parallan Computer, Mountain View CA

As so virtuoso composers, I've heard it said that Vaugn Williams wrote
a concerto for every instrument in the orchestra (IMHO, his Tuba
concerto is a really great piece of music.) and that he could play the
solo part for all of them......

-Sincerely,
Richard Walter
richardw@parallan.com
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: rouben@math9.math.umbc.edu (Rouben Rostamian)
Subject: Musical Heritage Society: address wanted
Originator: rouben@math9.math.umbc.edu
Organization: Department of Mathematics
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 04:20:31 GMT

Ten or fifteen years ago I subscribed to the Musical Heritage Society,
a mail-order outfit producing and selling classical music -- on LPs
in those times.

I am interested in rejoining MHS, but I do not have their
address.  I do not even know if it still exists.  If it does,
I would appreciate receiving any information on their address
or telephone number.

Thanks,

Rouben Rostamian
From: josh@aris.ss.uci.edu (Josh Stern)
Subject: Re: Review: Janacek string quartets
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 16 Dec 92 11:45:09 GMT

In article <BzC7wr.Az3.1@cs.cmu.edu> acid+@cs.cmu.edu (Christopher Colby) writes:
>In article <1992Dec15.195016.1072@fid.morgan.com> apter@fid.morgan.com (Steve Apter) writes:
>>Do yourself a BIG favor.  Get hold of an alternative performance of
>>these pieces.  I'd recommend either the Hagen on DG, who emphasize their
>>expressionist content, or the Travnicek on Opus, who simply outplay
>>all competition.  Other performances on CD I'd recommend are the
>>Talich (a bit wiry), the Stamitz (glorious tone), and the Lindsay
>>(ferocious).  Or wait for the Emerson to set their definitive stamp
>>on these remarkable works.

>I'd like to get more performances.  I'm curious about the Talich, but the
>Hagen and Stamitz just don't work for me.  I like the Smetena, too.  (I
>think they recorded it twice?)

I have the `live' Smetena performance on Supraphon and it is superb,
but, I fear, no longer available.  There is also a Smetena studio record
(also on Supraphon/Denon) which I haven't heard but which has been widely 
recommended.


- Josh
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: "alexander inglis" <alexander.inglis@canrem.com>
Subject: tokyo string quartet
Reply-To: "alexander inglis" <alexander.inglis@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: rec
Date: 18 Dec 92 13:13:18 EST

The Tokyo String Quartet were in town last night and gave a simply
splendid recital of Mozart, Shostakovich and Beethoven. The ensemble is
reaching its stride having been formed at Juilliard in 1969 with violist
Kazuhide Isomura and cellist Sadao Harada. Five years later the second
violinist Kikuei Ikeda was brought on board. The final personnel change
occurred in 1981 when Toronto violinist Peter Oundjian took first chair.
(I'm not sure just *what* the Toronto connection is -- born here,
trained here -- anyone else know?) They are Quartet in Residence at Yale
AND the University of Cincinnati College-Conservatory of Music. 

Mozart's B flat Quartet, K 589 began the evening. One of the "Prussian"
Quartets, it finds Mozart in full command of his inner powers. More
demanding and earnest than much of his chamber work, the TSQ positively
glowed throughout. Shostakovich's greatest quartet (of those more or
less immediately accessible), No 8 in C minor, Op 110, was up next. If
the Mozart challenged the players to be suave, the Shostakovich asks
them to be schizophrenic: quiet at times, violent at others. It's one of
the most overtly emotional quartets of our time; the TSQ delivered a
first rate performance.

After the break, Beethoven's first Rasumovsky in F, the longest of its
set and music of his middle period peak. It's the moment in which
Beethoven takes the string quartet down a new path; music would never be
the same. A brief encore followed; a movement from Debussy's Quartet.

The Tokyo first came to wide international acclaim with their late 70s
release of the Bartok String Quartets on DGG. IMHO, unlike a number of
currently fashionable quartets who play this great six quartet cycle
with hairpin virtuosity, the TSQ found the heart of Bartok's troubled
visions as well. I was weaned on that set, and an earlier DGG cycle with
the Hungarian SQ. Neither has reappeared yet on CD. Now, 15 years later,
the TSQ are knocking on the door of legendary status, ready to join the
ranks of the celebrated Busch, Budapest, Hungarian, Italian ensembles. I
get a chance to hear these players every season in this series: they
have grown in stature during the past five or six seasons in particular.

Oddly enough, I haven't investigated their Beethoven and Schubert CDs
for RCA/BMG which hve been appearing at regular intervals in recent
years. Anyone care to comment on their quality?

Alexander Inglis  |  InterNet: alexander.inglis@canrem.com
Toronto,  Canada  |  CompuServe: 70307,20     BIX: ainglis
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker)
Subject: Re: The Best UN-finale?
Organization: Camosun College, Victoria B.C, Canada
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 22:04:28 GMT

rpeck@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (robert william peck) writes:
: In article <1gnii7INNibh@master.cs.rose-hulman.edu> stinerkt@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (Kevin T Stiner) writes:
: >
: >What is YOUR favorite ending or finale to a classical piece?
: >
: The question of endings reminds of Karlheinz Stockhausen's ideas on
: beginning vs. starting and ending vs. stopping, which I believe he was
: formulating around the time of the composition of _Momente_.
: To make a long story short, a musical idea may start without
: having a /beginning/, per se; similarly, one may stop without 
: requiring an /ending/.  These theories found their expression in pieces
: which are described as being in `moment form.'  (Several examples are
: included in Jonathan Kramer's _The Time of Music_, including many works
: by Stravinsky.  Most notable, IMHO, is the _Symphonies of Wind Instruments_.)
: 
: With these thoughts in mind, does anyone care to name some of their
: favorite stoppings, or un-endings?  Or perhaps starts, or un-beginnings?
: (And, sorry, Schubert's "Unfinished" and PDQ Bach's "Unbegun" symphonies
: don't count!!  :-)

The end of Sibelius's 7th.

--
Real:  Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept., Camosun College, Victoria B.C.
Email: (dbarker@spang.camosun.bc.ca)
Phone: +1 604 370 4452
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: r4smith@student.business.uwo.ca (Richard Smith)
Subject: It's called "Deploration sur la morte d'Ockeghem"
Organization: University of Western Ontario
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 19:37:14 GMT

It's called "Deploration sur la morte d'Ockeghem" and is famous for its 
staggeringly low bass voice.

r4smith@student.business.uwo.ca (Richard Smith)
Western Business School  --  London, Ontario
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: szpak@csi.uottawa.ca (Stan Szpakowicz)
Subject: Re: The worst composer ever
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, University of Ottawa
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 92 12:35:08 GMT

In article <terjer-101292095304@majestix.ifi.unit.no> terjer@ifi.unit.no (Terje Rydland) writes:
>If you want to hear a really different performance of this "war-horse"
>then listen to Monica Huggets recording on Virgin.
>It opened my ears to this music which I have always thought was overrated.

I second that!

>I have no special works in mind, but try his religious music.
>Or the "sonnatas". There are recordings of these by the Purcell quartet
>on Chandos.

I would add his 'Cello Sonatas (e.g. played by Coin and Hogwood).

--
   Dr. Stan Szpakowicz :: Univ. of Ottawa :: Dept. of Computer Science
   szpak@csi.uottawa.ca  ::  tel. +613 564 2450  ::  fax +613 564 9486
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: "alexander inglis" <alexander.inglis@canrem.com>
Subject: various _goetterdaemmerun
Reply-To: "alexander inglis" <alexander.inglis@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: rec
Date: 11 Dec 92 15:44:16 EST

RC>Between the various discussions of the _Ring_ and its recordings, and
  >the fact that I had just listened to Act I of _Goetterdaemmerung_, and
  >the coincidental fact that my lover (who dislikes Wagnerian opera) is
  >out of town for a few days, I decided to perform a little experiment

You, too? **Sigh...!** A pity Streisand never sang "Du bist der Lenz"
... Wagner appreciation is definitely a one-out-of-two proposition in
these quarters, in spite of years of trying ...!

RC>The recordings in question are the Janowski (on CD, I forget the
  >label), the Karajan on DGG, and the Very Famous Solti/Culshaw on
  >London. I own the latter two on vinyl only, and hadn't listened to
  >either of them in quite a long time.

I'm a little surprised no mention is made in your interesting discourse
about any of the genuine mono recordings: Furtwaengler La Scala 50,
Furtwaengler Rome 53, Krauss Bayreuth 53, Knapperstbusch 56 & 57 being
the usual suspects. Perhaps this has been beaten to death in these parts
already (!).

Nonetheless, I wonder if you just have an aversion to these (live)
recordings in less-than-perfect sound? I know Knappertsbusch, in
particular, has attracted a chorus of detracters because of a so-called
stodgy outlook. But the Krauss set (which I haven't heard) has been
hailed in recent years as outstanding. I DO know the Furtwaenglers, each
celebrated widely and with similar merits.

What sets these 50s recordings apart, goes the argument, is the vocal
thrills not to be heard in later outings. Personally, I find
Furtwaengler's musical insights worth the lack of recorded detail. I
turn to the Boehm Bayreuth 66 set when I'm in the mood for that.

Alexander Inglis  |  InterNet: alexander.inglis@canrem.com
Toronto,  Canada  |  CompuServe: 70307,20     BIX: ainglis
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: tait@cs.columbia.edu (Carl Tait)
Subject: Re: The worst composer in a millenium
Organization: Columbia University Department of Computer Science
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 03:26:43 GMT

In article <1992Dec12.165335.17469@news.columbia.edu>
rsm13@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Ravi S Moorthy) writes:
>I had the misfortune of buying Oliver Messiaen's "Turangalila Symphony"
>conducted by Rattle.  To give credit where it is due, it is the worst
>music I have ever heard.  Pardon me Messiaen lovers, but I cannot make
>any sense of his mumbling mystecism or the interminable bird calls.

Since your statement will undoubtedly ignite a flame fest,
let me risk jumping on the funeral pyre with you.  Of all
the composers I've ever heard, I'd be hard-pressed to name
one whose music is as downright repulsive as Messiaen's.
There are any number of composers I dislike, but Messiaen
has the unique honor of making me feel physical revulsion,
as if I were being forced to swim in a large unflushed toilet.

I was in Tower Records last month, and they were playing some
organ music in the classical department.  As I looked though
CDs, the music's relentless odium became more and more unbearable,
until I finally yelled to one of the clerks, "Who wrote this goddamn
piece of shit?!"  It was ... well, you can probably guess.

Carl Tait
From: dhist1+@pitt.edu (David Hillman)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Lemmink{inen spelling (Re: the worst composer ever)
Date: 12 Dec 92 21:26:05 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

>>>There is another piece of early Sibelius for strings only. I've
>>>forgotten it's name unfortunately.
>
>>That's the "Andante Festivo", a rather late work (1929?).  If the recording
>

I think, however, whoever wrote this might have been referring to Rakastava,
an early work which was originally written for chorus and later for string
orchestra.
From: wilcox@vax.oxford.ac.uk
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: CD Pricing
Date: 18 Dec 92 15:56:59 GMT
Organization: Oxford University VAX 6620

In article <CB.92Dec16124104@tamarack13.timbuk>, cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster) writes:
> "Despite the fact that CDs in the US sell for half as much as in any other
>  country [...]"
> 
> Not true, as you later state yourself.  Though in some locations the price
> might be twice that in the US, as anyone who reads Gramophone knows in the
> UK the prices are generally 30-50% higher than in the US.

It has to be said that this is only true now because the pound has crashed
against the dollar. Taking the rough figure of $1.40 to the pound and taking
the rough CD price comparison of one pound for one dollar, they are now around
30-50% more expensive here. Back in September, when the pound was worth close 
to $2.00, his statement was correct.

Otherwise, a very fair criticism. The (British) campaign for cheaper CDs, at
the Independent on Sunday in London may be interested to hear about this bit of
self-promotion. Does anyone have the name and address? 
 
-- 

Stephen Wilcox             |   For Sale: Posts in British Government. Suit
wilcox@vax.oxford.ac.uk    |   outgoing American. Highest bids accepted.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical