HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: RADAMS@cerritos.edu (Roger Adams)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Sex (was Re: Becoming aware)
Date: 6 Oct 92 01:47:50 GMT
Organization: Cerritos College, Norwalk CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu

In article <1aq7e7INN1jp@sandman.caltech.edu>, 
dkarma@pro-nbs.acme.fred.org (Druta Karma) writes:

> There is a pleasure connected with sex in order to insure procreation. But
> that pleasure is also available to the cats and dogs. And if one is attached
> to that level of pleasure, then one remains in the cycle of birth and death,
> because in order to enjoy the pleasure of genital contact, one has to have a
> material body. And the material body is subject to birth, death, old age, and
> disease. So the pleasure of material genital sex is intimately tangled up with
> the miseries of birth, death, old age, and disease. 

If you like to eat certain foods like curries, that also is a material pleasure
that one needs a material body to enjoy and, following your logic, we would
have to keep taking on material bodies to keep fulfilling the desire for 
culinary pleasure unless we either found some way to stop eating (which has
been done by some saints but not necessary IMHO for graduating from the
cycle of incarnations) or to cultivate a sense of indifference to tastes and
the pleasure of eating which I also think unnecessary. I think the important
thing to do is to practice moderation regarding the basic instincts - ie. not 
too much food, not too little food, not too much sleep, not too little sleep,
etc. As for sex, which can be argued to cause stronger attachments to a
material body than food or sleep etc., moderation is also possible and also
indicative of -  control of rather than slavery to - the senses, and therefore
not incompatible to spiritual progress. It is true that great souls have
no attachment to sex. This non-attachment is what is necessary but it comes
first through spiritual understanding and moderation and not _forced_ celibacy 
when the disposition for such a practice is lacking. I have heard of too many
cases of perversions and sickness regarding sexuality of persons who for
religious reasons have taken vows of celibacy without having the disposition
for such a lifestyle and without having the whole issue of sexuality and 
transmuting this force properly explained and well prepared for. There are
many attacments that can keep us on the material plane and it is one-sided
to single out only sex and then encourage repression and suppression while
arguing against moderation as being useful.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
	Roger Adams
	radams@cerritos.edu               To those in whom love dwells,
	Cerritos College                  the whole world is one family.
	11110 Alondra Blvd                             A Hindu Proverb
        Norwalk, California 90650
	USA        		          292 Dwapara :-)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: epohl@hubcap.clemson.edu (Erik Alan Pohl)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Rinzai vs. Soto Zen - descriptions?
Date: 5 Oct 1992 16:52:00 -0700
Organization: ----
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu

In article <1aq80fINN24b@sandman.caltech.edu> gorilla@cats.ucsc.edu (Christopher John Arnold) writes:
>
>I was wondering if anyone can explain the differences between the
>two schools?
>
>Chris		gorilla@cats.ucsc.edu
>
>


If you do, please either post or send me a duplicate...

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It's still hard for me to have a clear mind thinking on it.
 But it's the truth even if it didn't happen."(One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest)
---Erik Pohl at epohl@hubcap.clemson.edu---------------------------------------
From: dkarma@pro-nbs.acme.fred.org (Druta Karma)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Becoming aware
Date: 27 Sep 1992 00:37:45 -0700
Organization: ----
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu

In <19q9g3INNn6s@sandman.caltech.edu>
mw@ki.fht-mannheim.de (Marc Wachowitz) writes:

>Toshi Takeuchi <tt@wag.caltech.edu> wrote:
>: How often do you feel sexual desires and feelings?
>You are putting this in the context of things which are usually considered
>negative. Is this meant to imply sexuality where somehow bad?
>If so, I'd like to hear your reasons.
>

I don't know what Toshi will have to say about this, but some things occurred
to me. According to many spiritual traditions, the usual sorts of sexual
desires and feelings are considered in a negative way. Why? Because they
foster identification with the material body and ego in the heaviest possible
way. It is, for many, the highest material pleasure. But it is still material.
Thus, for those on the path of spiritual progress, or vairagya (detachment)
material sex and sex feelings present an obstacle. This was certainly
recognized by the Advaita Vedantists, who would only teach Vedanta to members
of sannyasa, the completely renounced (sexually) order of life. The Patanjali
yoga system is also for celibates. I don't know what the Buddhist position is.
In the bhakti-yoga system, which I practice, material sex is considered an
obstacle to spiritual perfection. But there is an allowance for a kind of
spiritual sex, which is sex that is performed for sacrifice. Sacrifice means
you are doing something not for your own personal pleasure (or that of your
sex partner) but for the satisfaction of the Supreme. In the Gita, Krishna
says I am sex that is not contrary to the principles of spiritual sacrifice.
So in that case, the sex pleasure is considered allowable, even good. What are
the principles? The principle is that sex should only be used to invite a
spiritually advanced soul to come to this earth. That is a rare occurrence, of
course. Here we are talking about the appearance of a soul on the level of a
Christ, or Buddha, etc. In any case, those who engage in sex should do so for
the deliberate purpose of having a child, who would be raised by the parents
to become a spiritually progressive person whose main interest is spiritual
advancement and helping others make spiritual advancement. Arranging one's
life to accomplish this, before-during-and after the sex act itself is an act
of spiritual sacrifice, and in this context the enjoyment of sex is
spiritually legitimate. Even so, according to the progressive stages of life
outlined in the system of varnas and ashramas, at around age 50 or so, the
husband and wife would abstain from further sex and prepare themselves to
reach their spiritual destinations at the time of death.  

Druta Karma
----
ProLine:  dkarma@pro-nbs
Internet: dkarma@pro-nbs.acme.fred.org
From: dewhite@world.std.com (David E White)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: a question for buddhists...
Date: 6 Oct 1992 17:50:08 -0700
Organization: ----
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu

Reincarnation?

Well there is a diversity of opinion among Buddhists as among any other
religious group.  Buddhist thought was of course influenced by Hinduism
which does have a very strong reincarnation component.

My understanding of the teachings of the Heart sutra is that there is no
such thing as an immortal personal 'soul'.  If we expand our conscious
boundaries to include all beings, then we can see that the actions 
occuring at any place/time will have effects in other places/time (karma).

Recommend article "Rebirth: A Case for Buddhist Agnosticism" by Stephen
Batchelor in the Fall 92 issue of Tricycle.

David White
From: vvs3564@tamsun.tamu.edu (vishwas)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: AH Almaas (was: enquiry about an author ...)
Date: 6 Oct 92 18:30:39 GMT
Organization: ----
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu


	Actually I found the name of the author. 
	The name of the book is "Entering the Diamond Way"
	The name of the author is OLE NYADHL.
	Now my question is "Is there anybody who knows the whereabouts 
	of him?" If anybody knows his address, phone number, or any way
of contacting him please send me an e-mail message.
	Thanking you all in advance,



		vishwas


-- 
   <~ 
   _>0mAn \/|s|-|was     
  email address: vvs3564@tamsun.tamu.edu
*****************************************************************************
From: srose@mizar.usc.edu (Steve Rose)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Any Sufi related resources on the Internet?
Date: 6 Oct 1992 13:54:17 -0700
Organization: ----
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu

Hello friends.  Wondering if anyone can point me towards resources
(mail lists etc.) on the Internet related to "Sufism" (it's not really
an "ism", but...)  My name is Steve Habib Rose, and I can be reached
at srose@mizar.usc.edu (I don't believe the mizar part is necessary).
Thanks much.
From: ceci@lysator.liu.se (Cecilia Henningsson)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Rinzai vs. Soto Zen - descriptions?
Date: 6 Oct 1992 11:29:31 -0700
Organization: Lysator Academic Computer Society, Linkoping University, Sweden
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu

gorilla@cats.ucsc.edu (Christopher John Arnold) writes:
>I was wondering if anyone can explain the differences between the
>two schools?

In my thumbed copy of Roshi Philip Kapleau's _Three_Pillars_of_Zen_
Kapleau compares Rinzai to a strict old military man and Soto to a
scented spring breeze. I got the impression that Rinzai is much more
strict and authoritarian than Soto, and also uses a lot more beating
than Soto.

I recommend the book as a practical hands-on introduction to Zen
Bhuddism. Kapleau's version of Zen is a mixture of Soto and Rinzai
with more of the former.

--Ceci
--
"They're justified and they're ancient and they like to roam the land,
they don't want to upset the apple cart and they don't want to do any harm,
but if you don't like what they're going to do, 
you better not stand in the way, course they're coming through!" The KLF
From: wong@rkna50.riken.go.jp (Wong Weng Fai)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Newsflash : Bodh Gaya
Date: 29 Sep 92 04:50:42 GMT
Article-I.D.: qiclab.1992Oct1.160349.21684
Organization: ----

Hi Folks,

	I would like to alert everyone to the following piece of news I read
in the Daily Yomiuri, a local newspaper.

------------------- BEGINNING OF NEWSCLIP --------------------

	INDIA'S BUDDHISTS MARCH TO CLAIM ANCIENT TEMPLE
        -----------------------------------------------

	By Takashi Sakamoto (Yomiuri Shimbun Correspondent)

	BANGKOK -- A dispute over an ancient temple brought about 1,000
Buddhists together on Sunday in a march from Bombay heading across northern
India to appeal for their rights to control the holy site.

	The temple, Bodh Gaya, is considered sacred after Gautama Buddha
experienced spiritual awakening under a bo tree about 2,500 years ago. The
temple reportedly was built by ancient India's King Ashoka, a protector of
Buddhism. Hindus now control the temple.

	The march was organized by the All India Bodh Gaya Mahabodhi Temple
Protection Committee, led by a Japanese priest, Bhante Arya Nagarjun Shurai
Sasai, who has been living in India for 25 years, a committee  spokesman said.

	The struggle over control has been a long and sometimes violent one,
with Buddhists and Hindus clashing in spring. "The aim of the walk is to
stimulate public opinion about the oppression against Buddhists by Hindus in
Bodh Gaya," a spokesman of the committee said in a telephone interview with
the Yomiuri Shimbun, adding that a Hindu backlash is expected.

	The marchers, most of whom are Indians, are scheduled to walk through
the cities of New Delhi and Varanashi before arriving in Bodh Gaya on Oct 22,
where they will form a human chain around the temple and appeal for its return,
the spokesman said.

	Buddhism was born in India, but now only 10 million of the country's
850 million people are Buddhists. More than 80 percent are Hindus.

	Most Hindus in the bottom rank of the Hindu caste system converted to
Buddhism after India gained independence, with the largest Buddhist population
living in the state of Maharashtra, in which Bombay is located.

---------------------- END OF NEWSCLIP --------------------------

	I pray and hope that the situation will not explode into violence. I
also hope that the holiest of Buddhist site - the Vajra throne under the Bo
tree in the Mahabodhi Temple and the temple itself - will be returned to the
Buddhists. I don't think this little corner in vast India is too much to ask 
for.

with Metta,

W.F. Wong.
From: dkarma@pro-nbs.acme.fred.org (Druta Karma)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Soul
Date: 6 Oct 92 01:53:26 GMT
Organization: ----
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu


In <1992Oct1.160711.21937@qiclab.scn.rain.com>
travers@iWarp.intel.com (Jim Travers) writes:

>Dear Druta,
>
>A little comment, a little poem.      
>
>It is true that for convenience sake there are references to I, you, they,
>it etc..  These are emptiness; they are form; as is everything else we may
>assert absolutely. 
Convenient indeed. And what do you mean by convenient anyways? Convenient for
you of course. No question of convenience for a nothing. Every word you have
written demonstrates that you and I and he and she are distinct, conscious,
individual entities. You write "Dear Druta" and that is out of regard for an
other,a conscious distinct entity (person) who appreciates the gesture. It is
not simply out of convenience that you make these references. It is out of
absolute necessity, given our absolute nature as distinct conscious entities.
It is because there is no other way to function on the real absolute plane
upon which you exist. If it is just a matter of convenience try giving it up.
Try it for a week. See how you like it.
>
>
>    Conscious is . . . perhaps
>    Something . . ephemeral . . .
>    Connected . . 
>    Interpenetrating . . . empty

The images reflected in the mirror of consciousness may be ephemeral, but the
conscious self is always there. It may be connected in falsity to the
reflected images, but its real connection is with the supreme conscious entity
that is its source, and through that source to other conscious entities. And
consciousness cannot be emptied of itself.

>
>    It's nice to meet a part 
>    Of me I didn't know.
>    I and me, you and you;
>    They and them, he and she;
>    Thin lines, etched carefully:
>    Blown away with the morning fog.
>
>
It's nice to meet you to, but I am not a part of you, nor you a part of me.We
are thoroughly distinct and individual, and we can get into demonstrating
that. The morning fog of the body and mind will undoubtedly be blown away, but
the brillian sun of the self will be there shining on eternally. 

You really are a very distinctive and thoughtful conscious individual Jim.
Don't try to run away from it.

Druta Karma
----
ProLine:  dkarma@pro-nbs
Internet: dkarma@pro-nbs.acme.fred.org
From: gorilla@cats.ucsc.edu (Christopher John Arnold)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Rinzai vs. Soto Zen - descriptions?
Date: 5 Oct 1992 13:19:27 -0700
Organization: ----
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu


I was wondering if anyone can explain the differences between the
two schools?

Chris		gorilla@cats.ucsc.edu
From: zyin%soda.Berkeley.EDU@ucbvax.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Explanation of Tri-sarana-gamana sought urgently
Date: 27 Sep 1992 00:38:26 -0700
Organization: ----
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu


I would be very grateful if anyone could explain to me the Buddhistic 
initiation ritual of "tri-sarana-gamana" (the acceptance of "triratna"), 
namely its meaning, procedure, requirement, obligation, and implication.
Please send me a email if possible.

Many thanks.
From: mw@ki.fht-mannheim.de
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Farewell
Date: 29 Sep 92 19:02:07 GMT
Article-I.D.: qiclab.1992Oct1.160438.21797
Organization: ----

On Thursday I'll start with my job and therefore not be able to follow the
further discussions on s.r.e., though I'll probably come to university at
some weekends (the e-mail address will remain valid).

Thanks to all for many interesting articles and discussions, and to the
moderators for their efforts. You've helped to make my study even more
joyful and educating than it would have been otherwise.

All the best, love  the ordinary wonder of life,

  Marc

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
   Marc Wachowitz, mw@ki.fht-mannheim.de   /  life is live  /  life is life
  *  wonder everyday    *    nothing in particular    *    all is special  *
From: <@cs.hh.ab.com,ICCGCC::WALSHA> (The only thing God didn't do to Job was give him a computer.)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: a question for buddhists...
Date: 6 Oct 1992 11:25:36 -0700
Organization: ----
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu



I was reading Conze's commentary on the heart sutra last night and
when i got to the part where he says: "there is no ego,
there is no lasting person other than that generated by the 
interplay of the 5 skandhas," I wondered how buddhists reconcile 
this with the idea of reincarnation.

I recently read a post where the writer affirmed his commitment to
enlightenment even if it took many lifetimes. But if you have no
survivable ego or personhood, what exactly will be working towards 
enlightenment over that course of time?

thanks for any ideas,
   ando.
From: sanders@iitmax.iit.edu (Greg Sanders)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Enlightened Beings
Date: 29 Sep 92 02:14:27 GMT
Article-I.D.: qiclab.1992Oct1.160007.21434
Organization: Illinois Institute of Technology

Well, here I am commenting on my own posting.  Such ego!  Sigh.

In article <19qf78INNs0t@sandman.caltech.edu>, in response to Tagi's:
>>K) The individual is HUMOROUS.  More often than not I have found the
>>great beings of my company were jokers, pranksters, fools.  In this
>>way they humbled themselves and were able to break the sometimes overly
>>serious atmospheres that would develop around them.

I responded:
>Not an invariant of enlightenment.

Actually, Tagi is right about most awakened people.  It is indeed true
that overly serious atmospheres tend to spring up in spiritual practice.
People become closed in.  A certain level of taking yourself lightly helps.

                                        -- Greg
From: pjm@cshl.org (Pat Monardo)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Eastern Philosophy
Date: 27 Sep 1992 00:42:51 -0700
Organization: ----
Distribution: world
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In article <19vtg9INNemg@sandman.caltech.edu> pjm@cshl.org (Pat Monardo) writes:
>original teachings. I dont like Zen for this
>very reason.
>-- 

To hopefully ward off flames - sorry to criticize Zen alone.
I am having many questions about Mahayana in general.
Not in it's entirety but many aspects. For example,
The Dalai Lama at Harvard is supposed to be a book about
the four Nobel Truths. It's a pretty lame attempt at
teaching this topic however. He skips the Seven Enlightenment
Factors and the Eightfold Way entirely and instead
teaches exchanging oneself and others and the value
of altruism. Sheeesh. I'll study my fundamentals
elsewhere thankyouverymuch. I still have strong
Mahayana tendencies, for example an even greater love
for Lalita-vistara after studying some Theravadan. 
But, as far as Buddhist study goes, i am a
firm believer in "rolling your own".

-- 
-- Pat Monardo
-- pjm@cshl.org
From: vvs3564@tamsun.tamu.edu (vishwas)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: enquiry about an author ...
Date: 3 Oct 92 05:54:12 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.43620
Distribution: world
Organization: Texas A&M University, College Station

Has anybody read the book "Entering the Diamond way"?
Yesterday I saw a videorecording of his program, but forgot his name.
If anybody knows his name and his address (or how to contact him) 
please send me e-mail message or please post on the newsgroup. 

Thanking you all in advance ,

vishwas.
 
-- 
   <~ 
   _>0mAn \/|s|-|was     
  email address: vvs3564@tamsun.tamu.edu
*****************************************************************************
From: Jack Carroll <SECBH@cunyvm.cuny.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Peace & Justice Week in Oregon
Date: 5 Oct 1992 13:08:42 -0700
Organization: ----
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu

The following information comes from the October 1992 issue of "Still
Point", a newsletter of the Dharma Rain Zen Center in Portland, OR.

Buddhists in Oregon are participating in the Religious Response Network
(RRN), an interfaith group which evolved in response to recent initiatives
to curtain the civil rights of homosexuals.  The RRN opposes any
action which uses religious doctrine for the purpose of oppressing minorities.
The latest such effort in that state is Ballot Measure #9.

The zendo in Eugene, OR in contact with the Buddhist Peace Fellowship is
acting as the focal point for engaged Buddhist involvement in opposing
Ballot Measure 9.

As part of Peace and Justice Week declared by People of Faith Against
Bigotry for October 18 - 23, the Eugene zendo will hold a half-day
Buddhist Social Action Retreat on Sunday, October 18th.

There will be meditation, the Kanzeon Ceremony and a seminar on organizing
at the local level.  There will be a vegetarian lunch for which a $5.00
donation is suggested.  The number of the zendo in Eugene is 345-0361.

Jack Carroll
From: dorothy@cvedc.prime.com (Dorothy Robinson)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Rinzai vs Soto Zen
Date: 6 Oct 1992 18:09:19 -0700
Organization: Computervision R&D, Beaverton OR
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu

The differences between Soto and Rinzai Zen are mainly in their teaching
practices.  There is very little difference that I'm aware of in their
philosophies.

Rinzai Zen, which has more literature avaliable in English, uses koan
study, and strives for an early kensho (satori) experience.  It was
historically associated with the Samurai, so there's what feels to me
like a "macho" element.  It's rigorous, fast, and uses a more intellectual
approach, although of course it strives to transcend intellect.

Soto does not use koan study, but uses the events of daily life as its
material ("The koan appears naturally in daily life" - Dogen).  The
Precepts are also important.  Because of the emphasis on daily-life training,
I think that less time is spent in Zazen, although it is still the
mainstay of the training.  Kensho is still desired, but it is considered
better for a trainee to mature gradually and the kensho will happen as
a matter of course.  As someone else mentioned, Soto people face the
wall in Zazen while Rinzai people face outward.  I don't know the reason
for that.

In the United States it gets confusing, because the lineage that came to the
U.S. had a recent cross-fertilization between the two systems.  Most of the
Zen lineages here are nominally Soto but make heavy use of Rinzai practice.
As my previous paragraphs no doubt show, I'm from a lineage that uses almost
exclusively Soto practice, though even here the cross-fertilization is in
evidence.
===========================================================================
Dorothy Mokuren Robinson                           dorothy@cvedc.prime.com
     whose opinions are not those of...
Computervision             
14952 NW Greenbrier Parkway, Beaverton, Oregon 97006   Phone (503)690-7861