From: nestabro@nova.gmi.edu (Noel Estabrook)
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Re: Returning to secular music
Date: 14 Dec 92 20:46:23 GMT
Organization: GMI Engineering&Management Institute, Flint, MI

ajw@cbnews.cb.att.com (andrew.j.whitman) writes:

>The idea of "not causing a brother/sister to stumble" is actually a lot
>more complex than that.  It certainly seems to mean that, when in the 
>presence of said brother or sister, a Christian should refrain from
>any activity that would cause that person offense.  It's not as clear
>that the same concept applies when *not* in the presence of that
>brother or sister (e.g., if a pastor wants to have a brew in the
>privacy of his/her own home, or in the company of brothers and 
>sisters who are *not* offended).  Furthermore, it's almost impossible 
>to *not* offend some segment of the church, no matter what you do.
>The same pastor who totally refrains from drinking alcoholic beverages
>may be viewed as a prude and/or legalist by other members of the
>church. 

I think you bing up a good point.  If a brother has a drink in his 
house, no problem (I do myself), or go to a concert, etc.  However, I 
have found that many people who do such things often make sure everybody
knows about it.  Keep in mind, it s often more than the action that 
causes stumbling - flaunting freedom another brother may not feel he
has is every bit as bad.  I'll give an example:  I have on occasion (when
reading this group, in fact) been tempted to go back to some secular 
artists.  Now, this would be sin for me because it's against my conscience.
I would submit that those who always talk about how free they are to do
this are in fact running the risk of causing me (and possibly others) to
stumble.  That is wrong.

>If churches insist on formulating rules and regulations in areas where 
>the Bible provides no such rules and regulations, then it seems legitimate
>to call such activity legalistic and prudish.  Non-legalistic churches
>certainly have their own problems, chief among which is the tendency
>toward license and conformity with the world.  It's always a struggle.
>And it *needs* to be a struggle, day by day, situation by situation.
>But rules and regulations aren't the answer.

I agree to a point, but if one can clearly see the principle in the rule, I
would say it is legitimate (I'm sure John MacArthur's church would drive
some people in this group crazy).

>I doubt that Daniel intended his remarks to be interpreted as an
>encouragement to drink, cuss, and chew (chew what?).  His point is
>(I think) that non-Christians aren't necessarily impressed by
>Christians whose lives are characterized by a series of activities
>that they *don't* do.  They need to see something more - maybe 
>something positive.  Even as a *Christian* I'm not interested in
>Christianity by subtraction and negation.  I find even less reason
>to understand why the world would be impressed by it.  

Hopefully, we Christians can replace that time when we're _not_ doing 
things with activities that please the Lord.

>>>	2. what activities should leadership refrain from?
>>
>>Anything that would cause believers under that leadership to stumble.
>>In a large congregation, there could be significant amount of believers
>>who stumble over many things (secular music, drinking, etc).  As a 
>>leader accountable for the training of those believers, we are under
>>obligation to remove those things from our life that may cause others
>>to stumble, not out of legalism or begrudgement, but, as Paul says, "so
>>that I may win more to Christ".  Once they've been won, then let the
>>Spirit lead them, but don't give them something to stumble over before
>>they're mature enough to handle it.

>Okay. But again, there may be a difference between how one behaves
>in the presence of these believers and how one behaves with others
>who do not stumble over these things.

True, but keep in mind, a leader of a church has a "reputation" in the 
sense that many know of most aspects of his life.  He must be extra
diligent to not give offense.

--
Noel Estabrook			|	Knowledge without action is like
nestabro@nova.gmi.edu         --|--     snow on a hot stove.
Instructional Design & Tech.    |     
Michigan State University       |               Romans 12:2
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian