HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mrh@centerline.com (Mike Huben)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
Subject: Rights and duties.
Date: 19 Nov 1992 14:55:09 GMT
Organization: CenterLine Software, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: 140.239.2.36

In article <10577@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM> mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark Wilson) writes:
>Just because we as citizens have a duty to obey the laws that are passed, it
>does not follow that therefore the government has the right to pass any law
>that it wants.

You need to make clear from whence you are drawing these rights and duties.

If you are talking Constitution, then it is clear that the government does
have the right to pass whatever law it wants, within constitutional limits.

If you are talking philosophy, you need to make clear which one.

If you switch between one and the other, then you are committing the fallacy
of shifting middle terms.

Mike Huben

"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of
the last priest."  Denis Diderot in "Dithrambe sur la fete de rois".
From: ochealth@unixg.ubc.ca (ochealth)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: Libertarians in Canada? Elsewhere?
Date: 21 Nov 1992 07:19:58 GMT
Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: unixg.ubc.ca

In article <By059C.A74@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> svanegmo@cantor.math.uwaterloo.ca (Stephen Van Egmond) writes:
:You may find it worthwhile to look into the Reform Party of Canada. I 
:can provide an address to which you can write, and they will send a copy of
:their Principles and Policies "Blue Book", which outlines their approach
:to various problems and situations within Canada, and the principles by which
:they stand, which are fairly good principles, from this Objectivist's point of
:view.

Hmmmm. The Reform Party is too tainted with racism and religious moralism
for me. I hope I am proven wrong.

:
:Another interesting organization is the National Citizens Coalition which is
:slightly farther to the right.  They are based somewhere in Toronto, and
:I do not have an address, but they occasionally shake things up. They were very
:active during the public-sector employee strike, and succeeded in making
:the public employees look like a bunch of arrogant knuckleheads (at least the
:union leaders), which was what they really were.
:

I am not too familiar with the NCC, although I have agreed with some tax ideas
I've heard. As with the Reform Party, I don't know if they would fit with
MY idea of libertarianism. I can handle "right" wing economics, but if they
are tinged with right wing moral superiority, I wouldn't want to be too
closely involved with them.



-- 
______________________________________________________________________________
jpm: ochealth@unixg.ubc.ca         
                            Happily using OS/2 2.0 because MS Windows isNT ___
                                                      Insert VapourFeature ^^^
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
From: mdl@cypress.com (Matt Landrum)
Subject: Re: Attack of the Clingore
Organization: Cypress Semiconductor Southeast Design Center
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 06:18:48 GMT

In article <By52Hy.Kw8@world.std.com> wtinney@world.std.com (W E Tinney) writes:

   I was having a conversation with someone the other day when a
   subject arose about which I would like to hear some input from
   other libertarians.   

[other stuff about killing Washington-Clinton deleted]

I'm not a Libertarian (yet), but if I were, my answer would be
"I'm not biting."
--


Matt Landrum                    | mdl@cypress.com
Cypress Southeast Design Center | office: (601) 324-4609, FAX - 4614
1 Research Blvd, Suite 200      | "There's a fine line between 
Starkville, MS  39759           |  stupid and clever" -- Spinal Tap
From: mdl@cypress.com (Matt Landrum)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: Help Dis Totenberg!
Date: 20 Nov 92 22:17:51 GMT
	<92324.145958RSTERLI@auvm.american.edu>
	<MDL.92Nov19181829@ak.cypress.com>
	<palmer.722273261@news.larc.nasa.gov>
Organization: Cypress Semiconductor Southeast Design Center

Michael T. Palmer writes:

   mdl@cypress.com (Matt Landrum) writes:

   >Yes, that Nina is a real tyrant.  I think you ought to teach her
   >a lesson.  Call her a nasty name to see if she'll cry. 

   Matt, cut the guy some slack.  If you had watched the INCREDIBLY biased
   coverage that Ms. Totenberg supplied for the Hill/Thomas hearings, you
   wouldn't be so quick to rush to her defense.  In fact, when Judge Thomas
   was approved by the Senate, Nina looked like a three-year-old who had
   had her lollipop taken away.  Regardless of your views on this issue, I
   think you'll agree at least that we should be able to expect impartiality
   from REPORTERS.  They are supposed to REPORT, not EDITORIALIZE, not
   INFLUENCE POLICY, not MAKE THE NEWS THEMSELVES.

   Asking a "reporter" a tough question that exposes her biases and
   hypocrisies in front of a crowd is not at all wrong.  Isn't that what
   reporters do to other people for a living?


Ok, maybe I was too hard on the guy.  I just don't believe in
embarrasing someone just for the hell of it, reporter or not.  I don't
see it as constructive.  If you want to attack her for the way she
does her job, fine. By the way, I did not perceive the coverage as
INCREDEBILY biased.

You attack someone's principles, not the person (ok, maybe I violated
that stance myself and I apologize for the bitterness). If you want to
attack NPR for being tax supported, that's fine with me too.  By the
way, a portion (I don't know how much, but I would guess a significant
amount) of Public Radio and Television is funded through corporate
sponsorship and private donations.  I would have no problem with this
funding being because I believe people would pay to keep shows like
The McNeil-Lehrer Newshour, Firing Line, Monitor Radio, and yes, even
NPR and APR, on the air.

It seemed to me that the poster had a personal grudge against the
reporter and therefore wanted to exact some sort of hateful revenge
like a bully on the playground, hence my taunts.  


Now, as to something that has to do with this Newsgroup, 
(I have read the PREAMBLE, etc.)

What is the Libertarian position on collective bargaining?
Are there any regulations that a Libertarian would support
in order to insure that those not possessing capital
would be able to profit in proportion to their contribution?

Should companies be allowed to replace striking workers
with permanent replacements (I'm fairly sure of this one,
but I wanted to hear someone elaborate)?
--


Matt Landrum                    | mdl@cypress.com
Cypress Southeast Design Center | office: (601) 324-4609, FAX - 4614
1 Research Blvd, Suite 200      | "There's a fine line between 
Starkville, MS  39759           |  stupid and clever" -- Spinal Tap
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
From: ECL4JN2@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU (Jack B. Nimble)
Subject: Re: Help Dis Totenberg!
Date: 18 Nov 92 22:43:19 PST

In article <92323.144512RSTERLI@auvm.american.edu>, on 18 Nov 1992 14:45:09 EST,
Robert Sterling <RSTERLI@auvm.american.edu> writes:

>
>National Proletarian Radio's Nina Totenberg will be coming to speak at my
>U. tomorrow night, Thursday 19 November.
>
>I want to ask her a really mean question, and have thought up a few...but none
>that really satisfy me.  Any ideas?
>
How about "How do you account for the failure of public education to
teach the current generation of news marketeers that there are more
than two political parties in the U.S."?

        =Jack=
---

Jack B. Newsbaum             You have rights antecedent to all earthly
Library Information Systems  governments; rights that cannot be
University Research Library  repealed or restrained by human law.
ecl4jn2@mvs.oac.ucla.edu               - John Adams
From: mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark Wilson)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: Mob rule.
Date: 16 Nov 92 19:50:30 GMT
Organization: NCR Engineering and Manufacturing Atlanta -- Atlanta, GA


In article <1e0o8aINNima@armory.centerline.com> mrh@centerline.com (Mike Huben) writes:
:In article <10438@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM> mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM
:(Mark Wilson) has a signature quote:
:>Mob rule doesn't become any prettier, just because the mob start to call
:>itself a government.
:
:Once again, the fundamental flaw of anarchist libertarianism and objectivism
:rears its head:

Mike, what makes you think I am an anarchist.  I am a minamalist.  I believe
that some small level of government is necessary, but that it's powers should
be carefully and strictly subscribed.

:the fact that there are other people in the world, and they
:may not agree with you.

Which is why the power of government needs to be limited.  Because there
are other people in the world, and if there are more of them, than they
can take over the government and force you to do anything they want.

:Those other people have power.  They will associate.  The only way to control
:their power is for them to control it theirselves, or eliminate them.

The evidence is in, and it shows that if people have power, than they will
use it.

The best way to prevent the abuse of government power, is not to let the
government have the power in the first place.

As someone once said.  The US constitution is one of the best documents
ever written, too bad nobody uses it anymore.

-- 
Mob rule doesn't become any prettier, just because the mob start to call itself
a government.
It ain't charity if you are using someone else's money.
Mark.Wilson@AtlantaGA.NCR.com
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
From: starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr)
Subject: Re: Weld is not a libertarian
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 10:08:54 GMT

In article <1992Nov20.071048.5555@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> mlinksva@nyx.cs.du.edu (Michael Linksvayer) writes:
}
}I don't have any problems supporting non LP libertarians. Weld
}is no libertarian though. He acts like a typical Republican on 
}economic issues and a typical Democrat on social issues. Do you
}like typical Demopublican stands on either set of issues? 
}Weld supports the WoD, environmental protection via regulation,
}special rights for minorities and industrial policy.

This isn't completely true.  Weld's balanced the budget mess Dukakis left him
without raising taxes, at least partly through privatization.  Both the
Boston-based Pioneer Institute and the Reason Foundation were in on this.  He
also favors legalization of marijuana for medical use, which is the wedge issue
against drug prohibition.

I've heard that he supports that sort of environmental regulation, but not
that he supports special rights for minorities.  Even if he does, perhaps
he'll be amenable to libertarians like the ones at Cato talking him out of
it if he doesn't get alienated by such casual dismissals.  Weld does support
free trade, too.

Tim Starr - Renaissance Now! - Think Universally, Act Selfishly
starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu

"True greatness consists in the use of a powerful understanding to enlighten
oneself and others." - Voltaire
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
From: jbn@photon.com (Joe Naiman)
Subject: Re: Marrou's puzzling vote totals: Why & consequences
Organization: Photon Research Associates, Inc.
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 01:40:39 GMT

Stephen M Conley (sconley@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu) wrote:
: In article <1djie9INNoem@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> aa396@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bill
:  Henley) writes:
: 
: [stuff deleted]
: 
: >And if the Libertarians are going to continue as a party,
: >it may be time to re-evaluate the party platform and do some
: >compromising with reality. 
: 
: Okay, which freedoms and which oppressed groups do you think
: we should sell out first?
: 
: Steve Conley
: sconley@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu


Actually, we sell out the oppressed groups which hide behind freedom.
Andre Marrou was asked about abortion in the 1987 Vice-Presidential
campaign.  Although he opposes government restriction, he stated that
he hoped that abortion would become "a thing of the past" and advocated
deregulation of adoption and experimentation of fetal transplants.  It
is a stand many right-to-lifers (including myself) can stomach.

However, Marrou's comments on abortion changed over the next five years.
He called right-to-lifer "storm troopers" and noted in early fundraising
literature that he would make "abortion rights" (with Marrou, I guess it
would have been a right rather than a special privilege) one of his
campaign themes.  Marrou lost any chance he had of getting a lot of
protest votes from right-to-life conservatives dissatisifed with Bush.

Dennis Thompson, the last Libertarian to run for Governor of California,
made a similar mistake.  He sought money and endorsements from the gun
owners and motorcyclists dissatisfied with Wilson and Feinstein; yet when
speaking at forums he emphasized not gun control or helmet laws, but drugs.
Dennis is no drug user, I know him personally, and he should not have
abandonned the drug legalization effort; however, by emphasizing an issue
appealing to a smaller group he lost the opportunity to rack up gun and
motorcycle votes.

California LP chairman Pat Wright was accused of a similar bad strategy
in his Assembly campaign this year - as the only candidate in the County
whose name was on the successful court challenge against the sales tax
increase (Dick Rider also filed that suit but lost in the primary),
Wright stood a lot to gain against a pro-tax incumbent.  Instead, Wright
took up the issue of ferret ownership.  His own campaign manager noted
(although she may not have used the comment I make below, and she did
acknowledge that brining the ferret to forums got him attention)
that there were more taxpayers than ferret owners.

The Libertarians should not abandon unpopular causes, nor should they
dodge questions aimed at their support of unpopular causes.  But the
Libertarian Party is targeting too small a market when it emphasizes
issues such as drug legalization and ferret ownership.
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
From: rseymour@reed.edu (Robert Seymour)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
Subject: Libertarian Philosophers
Keywords: philosophy, philosophers
Date: 15 Nov 92 21:31:02 GMT
Reply-To: rseymour@reed.edu
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR


	I would appreciate it if someone could email to me or post a list of  
Libertarian philosphers. I am both interested in philosphers associated with  
the party, and also those who are not associated, but hold libertarian views.  
Thanks in advance.

--
Robert Seymour				rseymour@reed.edu
Departments of Physics and Philosophy
Artificial Life Project			Reed College
Reed Solar Energy Project (SolTrain)	Portland, OR
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
From: mdl@cypress.com (Matt Landrum)
Subject: Re: Help Dis Totenberg!
Organization: Cypress Semiconductor Southeast Design Center
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 16:02:07 GMT


In article <92323.144512RSTERLI@auvm.american.edu> Robert Sterling
<RSTERLI@auvm.american.edu> writes:


   National Proletarian Radio's Nina Totenberg will be coming to speak at my
   U. tomorrow night, Thursday 19 November.

   I want to ask her a really mean question, and have thought up a few...but none
   that really satisfy me.  Any ideas?

   Last year I embarrassed X-Sen. William"CheeseMan" Proxmire, so I have some
   experience with this.  Hey! It's not my fault that leftists have no sense of
   humor!   :)

Sure, when you insult someone in front of a group of people and they
don't laugh and tell you how clever you are, they have no sense of
humor.  I see.  Wasn't she the one that broke the Anita Hill story?
Your sick mind ought to be able to do plenty with that.




--


Matt Landrum                    | mdl@cypress.com
Cypress Southeast Design Center | office: (601) 324-4609, FAX - 4614
1 Research Blvd, Suite 200      | "There's a fine line between 
Starkville, MS  39759           |  stupid and clever" -- Spinal Tap


Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
From: galt%peruvian.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Greg Alt)
Subject: Re: alt.politics.libertarian,alt.society.anarchyREFRESH
Date: 23 Nov 92 11:46:32 MST
Followup-To: alt.politics.libertarian
Reply-To: galt%peruvian.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu
Organization: University of Utah, CS Dept., Salt Lake City

In article <37701@uflorida.cis.ufl.edu>, jfh@beach.cis.ufl.edu (James F. Hranicky) writes:
>Of course, you don't see that the poor in this country are still better off
>than the majority of peopole in more "egalitarian" countries, like China &
>the former SU.

And those evil Socialist countries in Western Europe are beating us 
economically.  Why would that be?

>>>> > The person who deserves the bread is the person who worked for 
>>>> > it.  Period.
>>>> 
>>>> Nope. The person who deserves the bread is the person who needs it. 
>>>> Period.
>
>So why work?

I've never had to worry about starving, yet I work.  Are you saying that
if starvation were not a possibility for you that you would stop working?

>It isn't equitable, but the poverty of Socialism is? You would rather have
>everyone equally bad off than to have everyone inequally better off? Perhaps
>you don't think of it this way, but Socialism is a guarantee for poverty.

Then why is there more poverty here than in more socialist Western European
countries?

Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
From: sconley@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Stephen M Conley)
Subject: Re: Objectivism and Libertarianism
Keywords: Objectivism Libertarianism Marxism Anarchism
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 01:26:56 GMT

Tim Starr and Brian K. Yoder write: [anyone who's been following this thread
can figure out which is which]

>}marxists view themselves as agents of liberation, and that's why you
>}find them in the LP.
>
>This is completely unsubstantiated and unverifiable.

Anyone remember _The Manchurian Candidate_?  Paraphrase:  "Is anyone asking
_are_ there any communists in the Department of Defense?  No!  They're asking
_how many_ communists are there in the Department of Defense!"  (10 points
to the first to post the exact quote)

Steve
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Monday, 23 Nov 1992 18:00:18 CST
From: <U23590@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: Attack of the Clingore

Re:  Repelling the ClinGore by force:
I think you would not only be justified, but morally obligated
to kill those who control a despotic government if it would
make things better.  (Since in this case, it would put
Gore/ Foley or somone worse than Clinton in the presidency
it's a bad idea)  In any case, you are certainly permitted by
the oath, the 2nd Amendment and the reasoning in the Declaration
of Independence (this last assuming that you could make it better
and gather popular support eventually only) to exact revenge/
retrebution on your oppressors.

You met a girl libertarian, and turned her off?
Now that's really principled.
-watkins@earth.eecs.uic.edu
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1992 18:30:11 EST
From: <DJS148@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
Subject: past election results

i would greatly appreciate any information regarding the amount of votes that t
he libertarian candidates for president recieved in the years: '72,'76,'80,'84,
'88' and '92.  i am a libertarian neophyte currently researching information fo
r a speech presentation on the party.  the speech is scheduled for november 23.
any other germane information or suggestions would be welcome.
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.marrou
From: starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr)
Subject: Re: Number of votes??
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 08:04:32 GMT

In article <1992Nov23.021525.8966@news.acns.nwu.edu> rkanuit@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Rebekah Kanuit) writes:
}
}
}Hey does anyone out there know how many votes Marrou got?
}How many votes Perot got?  Did either of them get any electoral
}votes?  I'm writing a paper and it's due on Wednesday and I really
}REALLY need to know the number of votes Marrou got..
}I need help really bad.  I'm just a girl.. :)B

Wow, a girl!  Haven't seen one of those around here for a while.  Constructive
criticism on how we can be more inviting to 'em is welcome.

As for the vote totals: Marrou got about 290,000.  Perot got about 18% of
the total.  That's all I know.  Good luck with your paper!

Tim Starr - Renaissance Now! - Think Universally, Act Selfishly
starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu

"True greatness consists in the use of a powerful understanding to enlighten
oneself and others." - Voltaire
From: ingraham@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (James Ingraham)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: NPR, Marrou and the U.S. Constitution
Date: 18 Nov 92 22:04:29 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <XxF=FK_@engin.umich.edu> positron@engin.umich.edu (Jonathan Scott Haas) writes:
>>In article <10577@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM> mwilson@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (Mark Wilson) writes:
>>>Just because we as citizens have a duty to obey the laws that are passed, it
>>>does not follow that therefore the government has the right to pass any law
>>>that it wants.

[My own stuff deleted]

>
>But is it true, though? Do we not have a duty to disobey unjust laws?
>

The point of the quote is that the government does not have the right to
pass unjust laws in the first place, so we CERTAINLY have a right (I'm not
sure about duty; just because I think it's unfair that people under 18
can't drink doesn't mean that I have a *duty* to go against all of my
beliefs about the problems of alcohol and my decision not to use it!) to
disobey any unjudt alw.  That's what this whole things about; follow the 
good laws and don't have any bad ones and you follow ALL laws. And 
(according to libertarians) you have a better world for it.  (Unless some
libertarian would like to correct me and say they shouldn't even follow
good laws, but I don't think that's a standard libertarian standpoint).

>-- 
>__/\__  Jonathan S. Haas         | Jake liked his women the way he liked
>\    /  University of Michigan   | his kiwi fruit: sweet yet tart, firm-
>/_  _\  positron@engin.umich.edu | fleshed yet yielding to the touch, and
>  \/                             | covered with short brown fuzzy hair.

-James
University of Pennsylvania
ingrahameniac.seas.upenn.edu

P.S.  In reference to someone's statement that Socrates felt unjust laws
should be followed should re-read _Crito_ a little more carefully; he simply
felt that he had plenty of time in the past to make the decision whether or
not the laws of Athens were just, obviously decided that they were and that
he would abide by them, and went to his death believing no injustice had
occured.
From: bartho@ll.mit.edu ( Rich Bartholomew)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian
Subject: efficacy of the masses
Date: 20 Nov 92 13:56:34 GMT
Organization: MIT Lincoln Laboratory
Originator: bartho@ll.mit.edu ( Rich Bartholomew)

>>-- 
>>Mob rule doesn't become any prettier, just because the mob start to call 
>>itself a government.
>>It ain't charity if you are using someone else's money.
>>Mark.Wilson@AtlantaGA.NCR.com
>
>Like that sig quote, too!.  Here's another one for you:
>	"The masses are incapable of any great good and any great evil."
>			-Paraphrase of Plato (I'd LOVE to find the real
>quote, but I don't have time right now)
>
>-James 
>University of Pennsylvania
>ingraham@niac.seas.upenn.edu

You may be thinking of:

CRITO: You can see for yourself, Socrates, that one has to
  think of popular opinion as well. Your present position
  is quite enough to show that the capacity of ordinary
  people for causing trouble is not confined to petty annoy-
  ances, but has hardly any limits if you once get a bad
  name with them.

SOCRATES: I only wish that ordinary people *had* an un-
  limited capacity for doing harm; then they might have
  an unlimited power for doing good; which would be a 
  splendid thing, if it were so. Actually they have 
  neither. They cannot make a man wise or stupid; they
  simply act at random.

From "The Last Days of Socrates", Penguin Books, Baltimore, MD. 
Translated by Hugh Tredennick, 1959, p. 81.
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian