HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Variations of Sword in Stone (re: Celtic)
Date: 9 Sep 92 04:50:07 GMT
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.

In article <79314@ut-emx.uucp> evc@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Edward Van Cura) writes:
>[If this is double-posted, it is not intentional. ---Thorfinn]

Yes, it was. First I was quiet, but now ...

>"At Tara stood the Lia Fail ("stone of Fal"), the "stone penis" which
>cried out when it came in contact with the man destined to be king."

That's the Indo-European stone phallus, right? Why did I say I-E? If I
recall correctly, it shows up in several mythologies. Like caves or
cauldrons for women, right? Or is that too obvious?

>Could this be the Celtic origin of the Sword in the Stone myth?

I really don't think so. Are you trying to make a Grail King connection?
It seems to me that the sword in the stone is pretty basic. Some great
person puts it there and probably dies or leaves and only the "rightful"
succesor can remove it. A way to hand down, or a way to leave a symbolic
test of "rightness". Kind of a Jeti Knight type thing.

>"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process 
> he does not become a monster. And when you look into an abyss, 
> the abyss looks into you."  --- Nietzsche

Yes, and one should not cast out the devil in one, for fear of losing
the best part. That's true light/dark mythology from Persia as stated by
Nietzsche and misunderstood by Christians. Just call me Zarathustra's Ape.::B^}
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: sjs@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu (BORCO)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Who's "free-er"?  Intrnat'l response wanted!
Date: 8 Sep 92 16:05:46 -0500
Organization: Gormenghast

In article <1992Sep5.055853.24992@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>,
pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu (Paul Ciszek) writes:

> There has been a discussion in alt.pagan about places to emigrate to if

I ain't emigrat'n nowhere.  In another law or three, I'm just going to
up and move in with Jerry Falwell Herbert Bush Walker Quale Graham Helms
and tell him, "pleeze oh pleeze tell me what to think/eat/say/wear/pray/
feel/express" and tell him that I'll stay with him forever and ever,
so he can always show me the wrongness of my ways, yes _gollum gollum_,
and if he ever tries to throws me outss, yesss, we'll wraps our little
handses around his throats, yesss, _gollum_, and show him how Precious
we really thinks he is, O yessss....


----
Bitnet:     sjs@ifasgnv              "Precious and fish are the moments we
Internet:   sjs@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu      two can share."          -- Gollum
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: A little on self defense...
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 12 Sep 92 19:15:20 GMT

In article <ogorman.716320084@unix1.tcd.ie> ogorman@unix1.tcd.ie (Lucifuge) writes:
>If you use a gun in any situation you are escalating that situation to a
>lethal degree...that is, the chances of one party being killed or
>seriously injured are greatly increased. If you have a gun you must be
>prepared to use it. That means you must be prepared to kill another
>human being, nothing less. The same applies to knives.

There are some fundamental differences between knives and guns, though.
Guns are all or nothing; when you are holding one on someone, it's
EXTREMELY easy to drop the like lead, and from a distance.  They are all
offense.

A knife is easier to use defensively, and it's easier also to merely
disable the person without putting their life in danger.  It's far more
precise, and it's also always ready.  Do I carry a knife?  Yep.  It is
MUCH more controllable than a gun, and if the other person gets it away
from me, they have to get close to me to use it -- upon which point I
can defend myself to some extent.

However, I agree with your statement per se; were I to take out my
knife, it would be with the intent of killing the person -- neutralizing
the threat they pose to me, which is all I'm interested in doing.  After
that, the cops or the ambulance can take over.

It just sounded like you were lumping guns and knives together very
generally, and there are serious differences between them. 

>My advice. Take a martial art. Some (esp. aikido and t'ai chi) focus
>heavily on spiritual development of a sort that would probably be of
>interest to the pagan community. Some are purely practical (kempo, muay
>thai, wing chun, boxing). All give you a better chance of taking down an
>attacker without killing him, in my view a preferable solution both in
>terms of the law and in terms of harmony.

But, thanks to the gun nuts in this country who'd give up their kids
before their guns, you have to assume that the loonie who broke into
your place HAS one of the goddamned things, and any martial art doesn't
teach you to catch a bullet in your teeth.

I would encourage people to learn them to keep in shape and feel good in
the mind and body, but as a practical mneans for fighting off a probably
armed interuder?  Nope.

Blessings,
Janis
From: evc@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Edward Van Cura)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,alt.mythology
Subject: Lugh is Also an Irish War God! (was: Celtic)
Date: 7 Sep 92 04:18:45 GMT
Followup-To: alt.pagan


             Lugh is Also an Irish War God!

From *The Encyclopedia of Religion* edited by Mircea Eliade
Book 9, page 48

...He alone possesses all faculties and assumes all the functions of 
the other gods: he is at once druid, warrior, and craftsman. It is he
who through his magic ensures the victory of the Irish over the
demons, the Fomhoire, who oppressed Ireland. The son of the Fomorian
Delbaeth ("undifferentiated form") and of Eriu (Ireland), he defeats
his grandfather Balar ("flash of lightning") by slaying him with a
slingshot.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Thorfinn Einarsson ><><><><><><><><><>< "Nu em ek reidhr" ---Thor
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
From: c1741@moncol.monmouth.edu (MICHAEL CARSON)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: yet another weensy question from you-know-who
Date: 10 Sep 92 14:50:46 GMT
Organization: Monmouth College, W. Long Branch, N.J.  07764

In article <Bu1z7I.J8r@encore.com> aaldrich@encore.com (Al Aldrich) writes:
>
>Curious indeed.. I really have no idea, but one possibility I can think
>of is that there are no sand dollars in mediterannean(sp) or north
>atlantic waters.. Actually, I have not seen ANY sand dollars on the
>East coast of the U.S. that I can remember..last time I remember seeing
>any ( in their natural environment ) is in California where I grew up.
>Does anyone know the demographic geography of sand dollars ?
>
>Blessed Be
>
>/al

	I've seen them on Cape Cod (Mass.) and somebody said they saw them
in Maine...

|o|\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/|o|
|o| Of Course I speak  |      michael carson       | Carpe Diem, Man.        |o|
|o|  only for myself.  | c1741@moncol.monmouth.edu |                -me      |o|
|o| Would YOU let me   +---------------------------+-------------------------|o|
|o|  speak for you?!?  |      All flames to: nobody@moncol.monmouth.edu      |o|
|o|\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/|o|
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: cuddihy@phage.cshl.org (Elisabeth Cuddihy)
Subject: Re: Variations of Sword in Stone (re: Celtic)
Summary: The Treasures of the Tuatha de Danaan 
Organization: Cauldron Spring Hullabaloo Lawn-chair
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 14:16:06 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.103051.8791@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au> mongoose@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Conrad Leviston) writes:
>Paul Harvey (pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us) wrote:
>: In article <79314@ut-emx.uucp> evc@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Edward Van Cura) writes:
>: >"At Tara stood the Lia Fail ("stone of Fal"), the "stone penis" which
>: >cried out when it came in contact with the man destined to be king."
>: 
>: That's the Indo-European stone phallus, right? Why did I say I-E? If I
>: recall correctly, it shows up in several mythologies. Like caves or
>: cauldrons for women, right? Or is that too obvious?
>: 
>: >Could this be the Celtic origin of the Sword in the Stone myth?
>
>	This stone phallus was one of the five treasures brought over by
>the Tuatha De Danaan (no Grendle, not the Anglo Saxon pantheon gggrrrr.).
>The others were a sword (the sword of Lugh I think, and no doubt also
>Excalibur), a spear, a cauldron (the grail) and a shield. The fifth is not
>always tallied with these, but it does round out the numbers nicely.
>

If my memory serves me correctly, the sword belongs to Nuada, the spear to
Lugh, the Cauldron is the Dagda's and the Lia Fail is not listed as belonging
to anyone.  I've never seen the shield listed as one of the treasures of the
Irish.  Please quote me some sources on it because I am quite curious!! :-)

"Stone Penis"?  I've never heard that descriptive term for the Lia Fail before!
The Lia Fail will sing/scream out when touched by the next king.  In this way
it serves a purpose similar to the Arthurian stone.  

For those of you who are not familar with Irish myth, these treasures have
magical abilities (like the spear has a deadly strike and will return to the
hand of the person who threw it, or something like that) and were brought
to Ireland from four unearthly cities when the Tuatha came to settle the isle.
As for the names of the cities and some other related info on these treasures,
you'll have to wait 'til I get home because my memory is not that of a bard's.

Questions: 
1) Has anyone ever seen a name listed with the Lia Fail or does it
have no "owner"?   

2) Does anyone think there is a connection between the Irish treasures and
the 13 Treasures of Britain?  Yes, I've read all of Caitlin Matthew's stuff
on this matter and I am not particularly convinced one way or the other.

(more threads :-)

-Liz



-- 
******isthereafireinthesky*****isthereamoonupthere*****isanythingalightnow****
cuddihy@annwn.cshl.org <> Gin ye ca' me fairy, I'll wark ye muckle tarrie,
cuddihy@cshlab.bitnet  <> Gin guid neibour ye ca' me, Then guid neibour I'll be
****thisdarknesshearswhatihear***thisisabreathlesssilence***amomentoutoftime**
From: evc@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Edward Van Cura)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: The Celtic Horned Goddess
Date: 8 Sep 92 03:49:39 GMT

From *Dictionary of Celtic Myth and Religion* by Miranda J. Green.
Some of the earliest archaeological listings which claim Celtic origin
may in fact be Germanic in origin. Or the finds could possibly be
common to both peoples. The Celtic and Germanic peoples seem to blend
together at an early age. For a look at the similarities of the two
cultures and religions see H.R. Ellis Davidson's *Myths and Symbols
in Pagan Europe*. 

<<<page 60>>>
"At Saintes, Cernunnos appears twice on one monument: on the main surface,
he is accompanied by a female consort; on the reverse of the stone the
god sits cross-legged, in company with bull images. This link with a
female partner is interesting, especially because we know of a female
equivalent of Cernunnos: at Clermont-Ferrand (Puy-de-Dome) and
Besancon (Doubs) bronze figurines represent antlered goddesses."

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Thorfinn Einarsson      *Ring of Troth*    "Nu em ek reidhr"  ---Thor
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: st923058@pip.cc.brandeis.edu (Rosaleen Dhu)
Subject: names
Reply-To: st923058@pip.cc.brandeis.edu
Organization: Brandeis University
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 18:04:49 GMT

Murray, I just read your post about taking different names. I seemed to see
a slight problem "taking seriously" people who use a name other than their
own on newsgroups. Now, you are very lucky in that you are able to use your
real name. But I am a teenage female and the reality is that it isn't
always safe for teenage females to give their real name over an open
posting. I have had a LOT of problems with this one and finally decided not
to use my real name on any newsgroups except in e-mail. You're not the
first person to "not take me seriously" because I chose a "fluttery" name.
(I admit, calling myself Morgaine, which I did for about a week, was
presumptuous, so I stopped. My Craft name, as I said in a previous post, is
the name of a more-or-less major goddess, depending on how deeply you're into
Welsh mythology, but I took it for one reason and one reason only: it chose mefirst.) If you want to talk about this further, feel free to e-mail me.
					Rosaleen Dhu
"She danced on the waters and the wind was her horn,
The Lady laughed..."
			--Lord of the Dance (pagan version)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: andy@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (Andy Freeman)
Subject: Re: pagan self-defense
Organization: Computer Science Department,  Stanford University.
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 18:02:30 GMT

In article <2AAFA3D8.13987@news.service.uci.edu> cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>Pretty strong for someone who's anti-death penalty (I think.  My
>personal mental jury is still out on that one). 

There's not necessarily a contradiction between being willing to use
lethal force in self-defense and being against the death penalty.  (If
there is a contradiction in your value system, you can't call the
police either, because they will threaten lethal force on your
behalf.)

The death penalty is a deliberate action where the actor is
in no danger.  Self-defense is to stop an attack.  The attacker
can avoid it at any time.

-andy
--
UUCP:    {arpa gateways, sun, decwrl, uunet, rutgers}!cs.stanford.edu!andy
ARPA:    andy@cs.stanford.edu
From: morgan@brewich.hou.tx.us (Morgan ap Rhys)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: poetry from a friend
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 92 18:09:27 CDT
Organization: The Brewer's Witch BBS, +1 713 272 7350, Brewich.Hou.TX.US

donal@brewich.hou.tx.us (Donal) writes:

> My freind Morgan also posted this on HCC, and I asked for and received 
> permission to repost it here. :)
> 
Ummm.. Donal?  It has a title... but the )&*(&* 30 line limit on messages 
on HCC did not let me put it in the message.. it's in the subject of the 
post tho... The title is "The Burning Times"
 
Morgan

------------------
morgan@brewich.hou.tx.us (Morgan ap Rhys)
(Alternate) morgan%brewich@lobster.hou.tx.us
Origin: The Brewer's Witch BBS -- Houston, TX -- +1 713 272 7350
     "Silence is the voice of complicity" - Vote Early, Vote Often!
From: donal@brewich.hou.tx.us (Donal)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Hazel Eyes
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 92 18:36:41 CDT
Organization: The Brewer's Witch BBS, +1 713 272 7350, Brewich.Hou.TX.US

lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) writes:

> >BTW: I always look forward to posts with your name on them, and I too have
> >hazel eyes... :) 
> >Blessed Be
> > 
> 
> Hey Donal, can we start a "Hazel Eyes" group.  Seems when I
> look in the mirror I see these "Hazel Eyes" staring back at
> me.  

we already do. It is called alt.pagan... :D
Just ask any right thinking hazel eyed pagan here (hint, all others are
fakes!)

;D

--------------------
Donal, Sysop of The Brewer's Witch BBS -- +1 713 272 7350
(Internet) donal@brewich.hou.tx.us  (Work) bill%pssi@lobster.hou.tx.us
(CIS) 76460,1443 
(SCA) Ld. Donal Dubh, IC of Dun Bruddair, B of the Stargate, K of Ansteorra
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: J024330@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM
Subject: Re: To Murray et al (was re: Jesus did not claim.....)
Organization: Lockheed Missiles & Space Company, Inc.
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 92 13:40:09 GMT

From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)  in article

                <<Stuff Deleted>>

>Well, I suspect that if you actually met the people who wrote the
>so-called originals, they would be embarased by what you are implying,
>you see, they were only scribes. This material was oral first and put
>into writing later on to freeze or preserve it. So since the copier and
>printing press were not yet invented, all ancient manuscripts are in the
>scribe's own handwriting, thus all autographia. This concept you are
>trying to imply has meaning only in the modern world. Ancient
>manuscripts are not written by an author, they are written by scribes
>who are writing what is an oral tradition. No written material has ever
>been attributed to Jesus or Moses, they probably could not write. This
>would be insulting today, but not then, after all they were prophets not
>mere scribes.


Philemon 19 I, Paul, am writing this with my own hand, I will repay it (lest I
should mention to you that you woe to me even your own self as well).

Who did Paul say wrote this?  :-)

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: New pagans and reading
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 16:06:59 GMT

corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra) writes:

>this. I believe I'm a little clearer now on the whole mysteries thing. They
>are what you make them. As ailsa told me that she makes up her own rituals,
>for her, I should do that for me. And it might only apply to me and not to
>any other men. This could be something as simple as chanting the periodic
>table of elements (a la Tom Lehrer?) as a mantra, or I may not need any
>ritual at all. I've always taken my spirituality personally, even when I

The following is not flame of what Corun has said--it is my thinking about what
Mens Mysteries are likely to be.

First, it has to be a *Mystery*.  The periodic table of elements is not a
Mystery--we can learn it and understand it.  Granted, it, like all things, can
be used for meditation.  However, what we use for meditation will have some 
impact on where the meditation goes.  I'm re-reading _Dreaming the Dark: Magic,
Sex, and Politics_ by Starhawk right now.  In the section I read yesterday, she
wrote about how the image of the God is needed to help connect maleness back
to earth, substance, body.  She points out that women are associated with body,
but men are associated with an ideal of dissociation from the physical universe.
She talks about the image of the Lord of Wicca being tied to the earth.  She
says that one of the most important results of the image is to change the whole
culture--to help men feel at home in their own bodies!

From what I've seen, a lot of Womens Mysteries are connected with the 
experiences of womens bodies--menstruation, pregnancy, menopause.  It seems 
natural to me that Mens Mysteries should also reflect the experience of male
bodies.  After all, the only absolute difference between men and women are
the bodies.  I think that the Twin Gods reflect the experience of mens sexual
response--the Green Man reflects the rushing energy of erection, while the
Hunter expresses the "little death" of orgasm.  It is my sense that it is this
sort of internal experience which shapes the imagery of the Lady and Lord.
(The female side of this is that women gradually build in response, and then
gradually fade, just as the moon waxes and wanes.)  Please note the I do not
mean that the Lady is a female or that the Lord is male--rather, I am saying
that this explains why having these genders in our Gods has the effects it does
on our psyches.


              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
                               Br'anArthur

Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)

******************************************************************************
Newage is hypoallergenic spirituality--
it's for people who are allergic to the word religion.
                                   --Jon Jay Obermark
From: 70253.2621@CompuServe.COM (Chris Colvin)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Favorite Bible Verses
Date: 4 Sep 92 23:58:43 GMT

Dear Lizard (I don't have your real name so I have to use your ID):

Let me clarify Luke 14:26.  Taken out of context, you have a "Smoking
Gun."  Knowing the attitudes of society of that time, being able to read
the Greek Manuscripts, having a interliner Bible, and Lexicon, you would
find the meaning to be:

If anyone comes to Me, and does not (by comparison of his love for Me)
hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and
sisters, yes, even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.

Christ also said 

Mat 5:44 - But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who
persecute you

Mat 7:12 - Therefore, however you want people to treat you, so treat them,
for this is the Law and the Prophets.

Paul a deciple of Christ said

Eph 6:25 - Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the bhurch
and gave Himself up for her

I think that's enough for now.

Christ be with you all,
Chris Colvin



Distribution:
  The Lizard >internet:alt-pagan@ucbvax.berkeley.edu
  Julie Donaldson [70006,101]

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: st923058@pip.cc.brandeis.edu (Rosaleen Dhu)
Subject: books for new pagans
Reply-To: st923058@pip.cc.brandeis.edu
Organization: Brandeis University
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 23:32:24 GMT

I have been reading, with great interest, the postings concerning reading
lists for pagans. Although I haven't read any of the books mentioned
except "The Spiral Dance" and "Drawing Down The Moon", I'll look for the
other ones. My problem is that I am eighteen years old and have recently
informed my parents that I have been Wiccan for over a year. Now they want a
book about it to read so they can decide whether or not they are going to
disown me. (I HOPE I'm only joking...) Does anyone have any suggestions,
either for books of the parentally readable type or for a good explanation
I can give them?
Someone also posted a note about Seven Stars and Arsenic and Old Lace. Was 
this post in response to my question about Wiccan teachers in the area? If
so, thank you. I already know about both stores, have never been in Seven 
Stars but have visited Arsenic and Old Lace a few times and will check their
bulletin boards for teachers. 
Pagan music: anyone listen to Gwydion? My ex-boyfriend gave me a tape called
"Gwydion Sings Songs For The Old Religion", the Old Religion of course
being us. Some of the songs suck--there is a version of "Lord Of The Dance"
which is particularly vile, and when I heard it I almost wanted to bring
it to Christmas Revels rehearsals for a ritual burning--but most of the
songs are okay. There's one called "Spring Strathspey", about a girl being
seduced by Pan, which is lyrically fairly explicit without being obscene
and is musically absolutely gorgeous. I'm a music major, so I try to keep
track of really good, singable pagan music--would appreciate any tips. If you
like Celtic rock, try Tempest--they're really good.
			Rosaleen Dhu
From: jmm25@po.CWRU.Edu (Jessica M. Mcgeary)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: names
Date: 15 Sep 1992 18:45:48 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


Oh, I don't know. Murray is, actually, one of the Names of God in the
church a friend of mine and I founded- the First United Church of Cheez
Whiz (Reformed). All matter is made of Cheez Whiz, which forms itself
into nucleons made of Spam, and all this is done by the command of Murray,
God of Spam and Possibly Even Bowling. B-)
-- 
Jessica McGeary
jmm25@po.cwru.edu
Case Western Reserve University
Remember! Arguments should be FUN!
From: lib1p@jane.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: something to check out
Date: 9 Sep 92 01:32:00 GMT
Organization: University of Houston
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <16765@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu>, darsie@eecs.ucdavis.edu (Richard Darsie) writes...
>I was browsing in soc.religion.islam and encountered a fascinating
>(and LONG) post which was a point-by-point refutation of Christian
>claims of Jesus' divinity. The poster made a very careful examination
>of New Testament passages to support his argument that Jesus in
>fact *never* claimed godhood or divinity for himself. I found it a
>very interesting post and thought others here might also.  The title
>of the article was "Jesus did not claim godhood/a rebuttal of missionary 
>theology" (sorry, don't have the article number).  If there is much
>interest in this I'll repost the article over here.
> 

please do.

Tammy
Newsgroups: alt.pagan