HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: fau@po.CWRU.Edu (Francis A. Uy)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: *
Date: 16 Nov 1992 00:14:47 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: fau@po.CWRU.Edu (Francis A. Uy)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


Please DO NOT follow up this post.  I will delete it soon.

To everyone who has been flaming Dave Hayes, Bruce Norman,
 or anybody else, STOP!  This is getting nowhere + wasting
 our time wading through all this bullshit.  

To those who are being flamed, please do not respond to
 every single post.  A summary rebuttal would suffice.

In general, STOP THE NOISE!
-- 
Francis A. Uy			Program Director, WUMD
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: adc@tardis.msu.edu (Alan D. Cabrera)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.netrek reorganization
Reply-To: adc@tardis.msu.edu
Organization: Michigan State University
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 18:43:32 GMT

In article f9Nq03FZb94W00@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com, fadden@uts.amdahl.com (Andy McFadden) writes:
> In article <BxKI3F.Dn8.2@cs.cmu.edu> hill@norman.VI.RI.CMU.EDU (Robert Hill) writes:
> 
> I for one wouldn't mind an UNmoderated rec.games.netrek.programmer.  Just one,
> no moderation.

The reason I would like to see it moderated is so that it the group would
stick to the topics at hand.  A moderator also goes a long way in culling
FAQs that are frequently posted by new readers.

> Before you completely write off his proposals, keep in mind that he's trying
> to make our lives easier by taking the initiative and doing something.  I
> think he could've presented it in a less fascist-sounding manner, but I
> don't see anything wrong with talking it over.

Ummm, fascist-sounding?  I believe that it is of the same formal tone
as other RFDs.  As a matter of fact I used an RFD for the splitting of
linux as a template.


---
Alan Cabrera				internet:  adc@tardis.cl.msu.edu
Computer Laboratory			phone:     (517) 353-3027
Michigan State University		fax:       (517) 353-9847
514 Computer Center			bitnet:    CABRERA@MSU
East Lansing, MI 48824
From: hartman@ulogic.UUCP (Richard M. Hartman)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: About the elitism in news.groups
Date: 17 Nov 92 19:49:38 GMT
Organization: negligable

In article <1992Nov15.121625.11038@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>jhenders@jonh.wimsey.bc.ca (John Henders) writes:
>>	Well, as many of these same people are the ones who put the effort
>>into writing the introductory postings circulated monthly in
>>news.announce.newsusers, is it really so remarkable that occasionally
>>they express frustration when their previous efforts to act as a
>>"resource for those who could learn from them" have been completely ignored?
>
>No, it isn't. But to justify ostracization from a vote because of that
>frustration isn't exactly fair. 

No one is being ostracized.  The worst you can assert is "uninformed",
which is at least as much of an inditement (sp?) of them as it is of
the supposed "elitists".

>On USENET we learn to filter out unwanted or unneeded information. So
>if you ask: "What standard does the first time user use to determine need?"
>you can't possibly get anything remotely looking like those Guidelines. 

A group called "...newusers"?  In most setups news.announce.newusers
is one of the first ones to come up when you start the newsreader
program.  What standard?  How about common sense: I just started
using this thing ... here is a group called "announcements for new
users" ... nah! I'll just skip it!.....

>   History is not usually what has happened.
>            History is what some people have thought to be significant.

So is news.announce.newusers      :)

		-Richard Hartman
		hartman@ulogic.COM

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Fosters!  It's Australian for beer, mate!"

Newsgroups: news.groups
From: gatenby%nmr@venus.ycc.yale.edu (Chris Gatenby)
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.soft-sys.matlab
Summary: YES!
Keywords: YES!
Reply-To: gatenby%nmr@venus.ycc.yale.edu (Chris Gatenby)
Organization: Yale University
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 18:59:43 GMT

I definitely support the idea of a MATLAB news-group. Although I myself do not need a comparison shop, I have no problem with this being in the group's charter.
So, put me down for a YES.

Chris Gatenby

btw, those waiting for 4.0 will find that it's worth the wait for the file i/o alone - never mind the (cool) graphics. 



Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.fantasy
Keywords: fantasy RFD arts
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 17:29:44 GMT

pvanheus@frodo.cs.uct.ac.za (P A van Heusden):
>That seems to sum up the response to the RFD so far. Some valid points,
>some flames, but I still feel there are significant areas not covered.

There are a lot of significant areas not covered, but there's a
reason for that.  There's an odd flip side to my early comment,
that it only takes one person to immerse a large number of people
in Yet Another Attempt to create a given newsgroup.  And that's
that if there's a sufficiently general lack of interest, people
may just not bother to participate in that attempt.  Given my
belief, for example, that there is no real chance of the proposed 
group passing, I have had no incentive to try to modify the
charter to one I could live with if it did pass, or to seriously
debate the merits of the proposal.  I don't believe I'm the only one.

That's why my comments, at least, have been about process, not content.
My suggestion is that if the Requested Discussion continues to reflect
the general lack of enthusiasm that it has, it not proceed to a vote.

Yes, there are significant areas not covered, but I suspect that
to a large extent they're not going to get covered.  There is a
fair-sized constituency for a fantasy group; we know that from
prior experience/s.  But we also know that it isn't large enough
to garner a majority, let alone a two-thirds majority.  

As for the newest proposal -- to simply rename the r.a.sf hierarchy
speci-fic or some-such -- who benefits?  Those people who are
interested in fantasy and not in science fiction who would not
think of looking in a group called .sf but would think of looking
in a group called spec-fic?  That seems like an exceedingly small
constituency.

-----
Dani Zweig
dani@netcom.com

   God helpe the man so wrapt in Errours endless traine  -- Edmund Spenser
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: Informing users how to vote
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 03:46:38 GMT

nadeau@bcarh1ab.bnr.ca (Rheal Nadeau) writes:
>You are asking for a system to spoonfeed users, so they need take no
>responsibility, expend no effort.

Yes...if that's what you are going to name it. I prefer "making it
as clear as is humanly possible".

>Hey, somehow I managed to figure out what what CFV and RFD mean.  And
>I'm unlikely to come up with the Unified Field Theory, or to prove
>Fermat's Last Theorem.

Well...aren't you special? 8)
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

A motto of the human race:
       Tell me what to do; but it must be what I want you to tell me.
Xref: sparky news.groups:22381 sci.med:21197
From: ellswort@studsys.mscs.mu.edu (Alec Ellsworth)
Newsgroups: news.groups,sci.med
Subject: UPDATE: Sci.med.dentistry
Date: 18 Nov 1992 22:47:38 GMT
Organization: Marquette University - Department MSCS
Distribution: world
Reply-To: ellswort@studsys.mscs.mu.edu (Alec Ellsworth)
NNTP-Posting-Host: studsys.mscs.mu.edu
Originator: ellswort@studsys.mscs.mu.edu

Hello,

	There have been many positive responses to the proposed
new group in the sci.med heirarchy sci.med.dentistry. I appreciate
all of you who responded. The call for votes will come up in the end
of the second week of December. The voting process will be as simple
as e-mailing to my account and including in the subject or body text
the phrase "yes vote on sci.med.dentistry".

                                   Thanks,
					Alec

-- 
Alec Ellsworth                           "Medicine will cure death      
Marquette University Dental School        and government will repeal 
ellswort@studsys.mscs.mu.edu              taxes before Steve will fail."
                                                          --Guy Kawasaki 
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: jan@bagend.uucp (Jan Isley)
Subject: Re: Usenet Culture, Part 2
Followup-To: news.misc
Organization: This space for rent.
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 04:43:15 GMT

Gordon, are you familiar with the "newsgroups" file?  It is usually
found in your NEWSCTL (that is C news lingo) directory.  It should
contain a list of newsgroups with short descriptions of the type of
topics appropriate for each newsgroup.  Here are a few entries from it:

news.groups     Discussions and lists of newsgroups.
news.misc       Discussions of USENET itself.
alt.flame       Alternative, literate, pithy, succinct screaming.
talk.bizarre    The unusual, bizarre, curious, and often stupid.

If you feel the need to continue this subject ... take a free clue.
-- 
If you choose not to live with reality,  \\  Jan Isley (404)434-1335
reality will come and live with you. - me \\  gatech.edu!bagend!jan
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: ian@nasser.eecs.nwu.edu (Ian Sutherland)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.fantasy
Keywords: fantasy RFD arts
Organization: EECS Department, Northwestern University
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 14:50:35 GMT

In article <1992Nov19.075900.14027@neptune.inf.ethz.ch> qvortrup@inf.ethz.ch (Michael Qvortrup) writes:
>In article <pvanheus.722108122@frodo> pvanheus@frodo.cs.uct.ac.za (P A van Heusden) writes:
>>how about change of name from rec.arts.sf.*
>>to rec.arts.spec_fic.* or something more explicit?
>
>A renaming of rec.arts.sf.* to rec.arts.spec-fic.* would fit your purpose
>better. It is also a lot more realistic than trying to define a hard
>boundary between science fiction and fantasy. 
>
>Several people have pointed out, that it is difficult for new people to
>find a fantasy related newsgroup based on a name search. I guess that it
>really is a bit of an 'in thing' that sf in our context is speculative
>fiction and not science fiction.

I don't think I would have known what to make of a newsgroup called
rec.arts.spec-fic.*.  Do you really imagine that readers of fantasy are
going to look at that and say "Oh, here's my newsgroup!"?  It's not
even clear that science fiction readers will.
-- 
Ian Sutherland
ian@eecs.nwu.edu

Sans Peur
From: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Intentional ignorance of newsgroup creation? (was Re: *BAD*...)
Date: 15 Nov 92 16:12:52 GMT
Organization: GSP Whitewater Slalom Racing Team

In article <1992Nov15.125228.12208@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec) writes:
>>However, this complaint has not been substantiated at all; repeated calls
>>for substantiation have now been met with refusal.  
>
>Oh come on, Rich! This cannot be substantiated...I could very well make 
>up a whole bunch of email addresses and you could very well deny legitimate
>once. That's exactly WHY I have not and will not "prove" anything. You
>cannot PROVE that my name is even Dave Hayes...I could be Jerry Brown
>for all you know. 

Sigh.  Dave, I've spent a lot of time combing the backup tapes,
going back through news archives, and requesting help from other
folks (via mail) to attempt to gather and present the facts of this
matter.  I've reposted the headers of the CFD's and CFV's; I've
written a chronology of events; I'm about to repost an archive
of the pre-vote discussion.  I have done all this in an attempt to
document what happened and when, because I believe that it's
a huge mistake to speculate when facts are available.  I am asking
you to do the same: document your position.  If you have news articles
that are relevant, then repost them.  If you have letters, then
get permission from the authors.  If you have other sources of
information, produce them.

>>My view, for what it's worth, is that this will be awfully tough to 
>>show.  
>
>See? All it appears (again *appears*) like you are doing is to shut
>any chance of an argument along these lines down by technicalities. 
>The fact that the case is POSSIBLE should be enough justification 
>in and of itself.

Dave, lots of things are *possible*, but I don't spend time worrying
about them.  I am ready to be convinced of your case: but you will
have to produce verifiable evidence and coherent arguments to sway me.
I won't be convinced by innuendo, propaganda, insinuation, and
unsubstantiated claims, which is all that you have offered so far.

---Rsk
From: stanley@ruby.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: UDRP Clarification
Date: 24 Nov 92 01:49:10 GMT
Article-I.D.: talon.1es1mmINNfqi
Organization: Oregon State University, College of Oceanography
NNTP-Posting-Host: ruby.oce.orst.edu

In article <646@ulogic.UUCP> hartman@ulogic.UUCP (Richard M. Hartman) writes:
|Because they have threaded newsreaders and can look back at the parent
|of the UDRP article and get a reference to "Usenet Documentation Revision
|Project: Phase Zero" from that.  If you are one of the unlucky people
|who don't have a threaded newsreader, tough!
|
|(of course the same logic could apply to those unlucky r.m.s people
|who never read the docs to find out what CFV meant.... :)

Gee. I never thunk o' that. :-)
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: Give up, Dave, you've lost!
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 03:59:09 GMT

jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
>I think it's ironic as hell that the man who's the most vocal about saving the
>group from us eeeeeeeeeeeeevil news.groupies is the one who's hurting the
>group the most.

Takes two to flame, me bucko. 
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

Bribe (n.) - 1. Substitute for law.
Law   (n.) - 1. Substitute for justice.
From: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Would you ALL like a demonstration? (was Re: Dave Hayes may be r
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 11:46:38 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.

ckd@eff.org (Christopher Davis) writes using WAY K00L EMAKS STUPORCITE!!!!
>  StuporCite> How would you like me to post one article per day to the top 100
>  StuporCite> groups in each newsgroup, inviting everyone over to news.groups
>  StuporCite> with a subject line like "DANGER! YOUR group may go away."?
> 
> Well, Dave, is that a threat?  Is this how you expect to convince us of
> your rationality?

I hope it's a threat.  In talk.bizarre we know how to play that game.


mathew
-- 
Official Meta-Pope of the SubGenius Church of the Radioactive Jesus
(formerly Hamburgers for WOTAN, Inc.)

Xref: sparky news.groups:22481 news.admin.policy:489
From: gary_preckshot@lccmail.ocf.llnl.gov (gary preckshot)
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.policy
Subject: Re: Discussion: Rewriting the newsgroup creation rules--drastically
Date: 19 Nov 92 21:52:20 GMT
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: LLNL

In article <1992Nov17.000330.8962@muddcs.claremont.edu>, irilyth@fenris.claremont.edu (Josh Smith) writes:
> 
[stuff deleted]
> In a prior article, Aftab Ahmad (aftab@nsisrv.gsfc.nasa.gov) writes:
> > Now here is my suggestion: the administration may make a quota about how
> > many groups it wants to create each "term".  The groups should be created
> > based only on the readership and not on the opposition. Software can be
> > written to monitor which group is surviving and which not. Those who do
> > not survive should be simply taken out. 
> 
> A few problems:
> 
> 1) [deleted but not agreed with in some particulars]
> 
> 2) I'm not convinced that your proposal addresses the real problem, which is
> that "spoilers" can have ill effects on Usenet. Under the current system, a
> bunch of spoilers can, for whatever reason, shoot down an otherwise popular
> vote. Their motivations may be religious, political, personal, or simply
> spiteful, but the fact remains that as things stand now, a determined group
> of people can ruin an otherwise good idea.

[stuff on how spoilers could spoil deleted]

Josh,

I think Mr. Ahmad's comments were quite perceptive of the reason for some
of the problems news.groups has been experiencing, although methods of
solution remain elusive.  In precis, Mr. Ahmad points out that another
religious group may have intruded as spoilers upon the attempt to create a discussion
group for Mr. Ahmad's sect.  I think his point is that even
if there is a lot of opposition to the formation of a group, just the fact
that there are many people wanting to create the group should be sufficient
to create it.  In other words, if there are 500 yea votes, why should nay
votes matter at all?  The nay-sayers can simply not read the new group.

I find the idea that religious enemies can stop the establishment of a
religious discussion group to be repugnant.  I'm not religious
myself and I doubt I would ever participate in any Islamic discussion
group other than as a distantly interested reader.

I think there is a solution to the spoilers problem.  If the yea vote is big
enough, then spoilers should be ignored.  This is equivalent to Mr. Ahmad's
readership suggestion.  If there are enough participants wanting to discuss
something, then they should have a forum.  Somehow I think Usenet is
forgetting the precepts of one of the main countries that gave it birth.

G.

Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.misc,alt.adoption,misc.kids,soc.roots
From: jasons@atlastele.com (Jason Smith)
Subject: Re: RFD/CFD: soc.adoption
Keywords: adoption
Organization: Atlas Telecom Inc.
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 19:35:58 GMT

In article <1992Nov19.200207.24135@mdd.comm.mot.com> gix@mdd.comm.mot.com (Brian Gix) writes:
>This is a formal request for comments to create a group by the name:
>soc.adoption
>
>Charter:
>	[...]
>
>Things most of us would like to avoid:
>talk.abortion
>

Suggest making this a moderated newsgroup to enforce the above. 
I've seen talk.abortion crossposts to sci.skeptic fercryinoutloud! 

And, I don't suppose many of us C programmers are going to soon 
forget the recent **IMPORTANT DISCOVERY** either.  [ DON'T ask...]

>--Brian Gix
>
>
>-- 
>--Brian Gix                       Motorola

As an aside, propose a shorthand notation/summary for those of us
who are looking (Has this sort of thing been done???)  'Cause you
never know whose reading....

Pretty self expanatory.  'b' words are birth data, 'a' words are 
adoption data (and hey, I'm open to expansion...), dates and locations
prefixed with `~' read "Near".  Dates are DD-MM-YY (let's not forget
we want "world" distribution).  Also suggest using the string "BIO" as
subject line for the kill-file wizards.

So, here's mine:

Jason D. Smith
bname: Anthony Jonathan Hensen
bdate: ~05-12-64 
bloc:  Los Angeles/Long Beach, CA
adate: ~XX-03-65
aloc:  Claremont, CA



-- 
_______________________________________________________________________________
Jason D. Smith  | Atlas Telecom | There are two kinds of opinions.  There
                | Portland, OR  | are good ones, and then there are other
     1x1        | 503-228-1400  | peoples'.  These are mine alone... JDS
From: dave@frackit.UUCP (Dave Ratcliffe)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: The "Discussion" over the r.m.s. vote (was Re: *)
Date: 21 Nov 92 14:33:14 GMT
Organization: Data Factory Services, Harrisburg, Pa.


 In article <1e6p5nINNf7p@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, fau@po.CWRU.Edu (Francis A. Uy) writes:
 > 
 > Please DO NOT follow up this post.  I will delete it soon.

Different subject line here. Just what we all needed, a new thread :)

 > To everyone who has been flaming Dave Hayes, Bruce Norman,
 >  or anybody else, STOP!  This is getting nowhere + wasting
 >  our time wading through all this bullshit.  

Killfiles are your friend. You'll like killfiles. If you'd like rn for
YOUR machine I'll see that you get it. 

 > To those who are being flamed, please do not respond to
 >  every single post.  A summary rebuttal would suffice.

This is Usenet. Such behaviour is against the customs we all know and
love. Even if it DOES make sense. 

 > In general, STOP THE NOISE!

The 'noise' is being generated, at best, by 2 people who refuse to
accept a validly held vote. Speak to them about it but don't expect any
support for your views. They seem to be practicing a form of civil
disobediance peculiar to Usenet. 

 > Francis A. Uy			Program Director, WUMD

-- 
 Dave Ratcliffe              vogon1!compnect!frackit!dave@psuvax1.psu.edu
 Former News Dir. WVAM, WKBO, WQVE -  Former Asst. Eng. WVAM, WKBO, WRHY, 
 WQVE - then I got a REAL job.....
From: dave@frackit.UUCP (Dave Ratcliffe)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: SOC.RELIGION.ISLAM.AHMADIYYA-MODERATED.
Date: 20 Nov 92 22:19:32 GMT
Organization: Data Factory Services, Harrisburg, Pa.


 In article <1992Nov14.070309.2724@athena.mit.edu>, alsaggaf@athena.mit.edu (M. Saggaf) writes:
 >(in a previous posting I said):
 >>If it ISN'T time to call for the vote yet it oughtta be.  This is the
 >>LONGEST discussion period I've seen since the SCIA vote. Or, at least it
 >>seems that way. 
 >>
 > 
 >A CFV has been issued last week. Please send your [NO] vote to 
 > 
 > 		rana@ucsu.colorado.edu
 > 
 >with the sentence
 > 
 >         I vote [NO] to soc.religion.islam.ahmadiyya


Do I really look that stoopid [tm]? 

I've already sent in my vote and I doubt you'll agree with it. 

So far this vote is off to an inauspicious start. With 3 different CVF's
issued and an apparent attempt to subvert the vote with misdirection. 

Between this, the rec.music.makers.synth vote and the s.c.i.a. fiasco
things have been far from dull around here this year. 

-- 
 ...uunet!wa3wbu!frackit!dave -or-                       |  Dave Ratcliffe  |
 frackit!dave@uunet.UU.NET -or- dave@frackit.uucp -or-   |  Sys. <*> Admin. |
 vogon1!compnect!frackit!dave@psuvax1.psu.edu            | Harrisburg,  Pa. |
From: jan@bagend.uucp (Jan Isley)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Music Group Reorg Disagreement (was Re: *BAD*...)
Summary: best original humor of the week nominee
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 05:08:57 GMT
Organization: This space for rent.

ksdavis@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Karleenus Schwartz Davis) writes:
>
>Since you, Gordon, ... as someone who knows both how the net works ...

Best laugh I've had in weeks.
-- 
Do not suffer the company of fools  ||  Jan Isley ...!gatech!bagend!jan
  Siddhartha Gautama, the Buddha    ||  jan@bagend.uucp (404)434-1335
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: jlevine@apollo.hp.com (Jennifer E. Levine)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.fantasy
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 23:25:42 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Chelmsford, MA
Keywords: fantasy RFD arts

In article <1992Nov19.075900.14027@neptune.inf.ethz.ch>, qvortrup@inf.ethz.ch (Michael Qvortrup) writes:

|> 
|> 	2) If more people find, that *.sf.* is too obscure, and a more
|> 	   explicit name might be a Good thing (TM), and a consensus can
|> 	   be reached on the new name (I personally like *.spec-fic.*),
|> 	   then I might support such a renaming.

I agree with this point but I am not sure if *.spec-fic.* is any clearer.

--Jennifer
jlevine@apollo.hp.com