HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: graydon@micor.ocunix.on.ca (Graydon)
Subject: Re: Regarding Cameras at SCA events
Organization: M.B. Cormier INC.
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 17:45:30 EDT

Rich Addison <Rich_Addison@med.umich.edu> writes:

> Graydon, graydon@micor.ocunix.on.ca writes:
> >z_berryrw@ccsvax.sfasu.edu writes:
> >concerned should have their video tape, and preferably their camcorder,
> >too, chucked into a handy tesla coil.  This is not likely to be something
> >the SCA would be willing to adopt as a policy, but a 'no video' policy
> >doesn't strike me as inappropriate or difficult.
> 
> It's my humble opinion that one should be able to do whatever they very
> well please, as long as they cause no harm to others.  If you want to
> argue that being photographed without permission could have long-term
> psychotraumatic side-effects you may, while I giggle back at you.  . . ;)
> 
> Woefully mundane and looking for Ann Arbor, MI SCA contact:
> Rich_Addison@med.umich.edu
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Rich Addison                   |        Do not meddle in
> Programmer Analyst             |     the affairs of wizards,
> U of M Organ Transplant Center |    for they are clever, and
> Ann Arbor, MI                  | you would make a great doorknob.

It depends on what I'm there to do - if I'm at the event to swill
beer, sing out of tune songs denigrating the 'great and high',
and hopefully be successfully lecherous, I probably ought not to
care about video cameras.

If, on the other hand, I'm at the event to be as medieval as I can
manage, very, very little screams 20th century quite as loudly as
someone with a camcorder, sidling about, and being an obvious spectator.
(By the by - odds are, the law you quoted has no application ini 
Ealdormere...)

Cameras, particularly cheap, portable, and easy to use cameras, are
a 20th century thing.  Hal has opinined that they are a useful
diagnostic tool for some sorts of difficulties with fighting;
this sort of diagnosis ough not to happen at formal events (at
least, that isn't where I'd want my armor problems diagnosed!).
Can someone sugguest an actual material loss resulting from *not*
taking photographs at an event?

Graydon

        Graydon the Curious         /graydon@micor.ocunix.on.ca
  Skraeling Althing, EAldormere, MK / "Nihil est quin obsisti possit"
From: jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Cease Fire Proposal
Date: 31 Jul 92 16:29:16 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.sca
Organization: SCA

Unto the good gentles of the Rialto does Hossein Ali Qomi send greetings and
prayers for the blessings of Allah.

I had not intended to return to this forum, but I have received more than
fifty missives from my friends here urging me to reconsider.  I meant what
I said in my explanatory posting.  I will _not_ in honor attempt to coerce
others to accomodate my values.  However, I am prepared to return on the
basis of mutual agreement.  The terms which I propose are:
	1.  The "courtesy flame war" ends _now_ (with appropriate allowances
for gating timetables and the like).
	2.  We agree to be attentive to and respectful of cultural and
dialect differences and to query those who confuse us as to their meanings
_before_ we criticize them personally (I suggest that email may make this
more feasible than posting).  This includes a willingness to accept
correction if our best attempts are faulty.
	3.  We agree that direct, personal, substantive-contentless attacks
in our forum are inappropriate (phrases like "get fucked," and "shove it up 
your ass" come to mind, but I do not mean to object to _any_ criticism or 
attack which deals with a substantive issue or idea).
	4.  We agree to comport ourselves in the general spirit of the
guidelines proposed by Lady Angharad.  This is more in the nature of an
ideal than an enforceable contract provision.
	5.  Those who have personally attacked Stephen in a public venue
should apologize to him in a public venue.  I beg those who have posted in
criticism of Stephen to do this.
	6. Since Stephen has told me that he thought he expressed his
original posting awkwardly, I would take it as a personal favor if he were
to apologize to Christian if he thinks he could have unintentionally given
him hurt.

If any choose to dissent from these proposals, please email that dissent to
me at jtn@vtopus.cs.vt.edu.  I shall operate from the decision rule: _qui
tacet consentire_, those who are silent give consent (this is not to impede
anyone who wants to email positive responses to me, but some decision rule
is necessary).

Perhaps all this is an artifact of my recently combing through hundreds of
Southern French and Catalan _convenientiae_ (feudal peace and holding
agreements), but it strikes me as a reasonable means to satisfy honor on
all sides.

In Service to the Society,

Hossein Ali Qomi/Gregory F. Rose
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: graydon@micor.ocunix.on.ca (Graydon)
Subject: Re: Basic Courtesy
Organization: M.B. Cormier INC.
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 14:58:24 EDT

Greetings!

I'm afraid my good sense has been overloaded; anyone with a low
lack of tact tolerance might want to bounce to the next posting.

Look, folks - rudeness is when you act in a way that indicates that
you're unaware that other people's feelings are just as important as
yours.  Very simple concept.

Stephen's orginal posting can easily be seen as rude; it can also
be seen as the product of Stephen feeling hurt, because yet another
someone has just blithely ignored the authenticity ideals that the
SCA professes.

I think I can make a pretty good case that people on *both* sides
of this discussion are reacting out of percieved harm - Hossein 
affronted at people saying nasty things about a friend, Bertram
and Esmeralda worried about SCA ideals of courtesy, and what not.

Folks - trying to make the other guy admit that it *really* is _their_
fault you felt pain is a **STUPID** way to deal with hurt.  Dead
dull dry bone stupid.  Particularly when half the people involved 
in the debate are religous rationalists and/or are showing traces of
believing that academic rigour produces the only valid discourse.

Pain is *yours*.  It may not have been justly caused, but once
felt, it _is_ yours and the responsibility to deal with it likewise.

So - maybe people could wander off and think about *why* you went
'ouch!', and we can talk about this after Pennsic, when there might
actually be something to say?

Graydon

        Graydon the Curious         /graydon@micor.ocunix.on.ca
  Skraeling Althing, EAldormere, MK / "Nihil est quin obsisti possit"
From: Suze.Hammond@f56.n105.z1.therose.pdx.com (Suze Hammond)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: "Once upon a Weekend" demo tape
Date: 24 Jul 92 06:17:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: therose.712043902.F00007

NL>  From: nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Nancy Lebovitz)
NL>  Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
NL>
NL>  >They really did this? A Mundane newspaper was that sensitive to what
NL>  we do?
NL>
NL>  The Wall Street Journal always uses drawings rather than photos as
NL>  far as
NL>  I can tell, unless it's talking about an advertising campaign where a
NL>  photo is the actual subject matter.

I never really noticed! How odd...
I thought drawing for newspapers was a lost art. (My grandmother did it for 
a living...)

Why? Does anyone know?

Moreach NicMaolain
trifid@agora.rain.com

(Please reply email to address above.) 
 
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: trifid@agora.uucp (Roadster Racewerks)
Subject: Re: Residence in local branches
Organization: Open Communications Forum
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 10:26:33 GMT



As an exercise in curiosity, how would one go about querying Milpitas about
the composition/population of one's group, and what boundaries Milpitas was
recognizing? All this fuss I seem to have started has got my curiosity awakened.

Moreach NicMaolain
trifid@agora.rain.com

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: GEN0036@Husky1.StMarys.Ca (Brynjolfr)
Subject: Televangelists (was Re: Anti-SCA/wargaming attitudes)
Organization: St. Mary's University, Halifax, N.S., Canada
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 17:33:49 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.12.SMU

Nicholas writes upon the Rialto:

>Moreach NicMaolain (Suze Hammond) writes:
>
>>Well, there are the major fundamentalist churches (which generally have 
>>bigger fish to fry anyway) and the Loonies for Christ, :-) who give them a 
>>bad name, while picking old folk's pockets.
>
>>We do have to remember that we ought try not to generalize about *anyone*.
>
>Of course, you've just done a pretty good job of generalizing about 
>the *minor* fundamentalist churches.

Well, I think the Loonies for Christ reference was to televangelism, that
rather odd form of Christianity which tends to bleed its worshippers dry,
rather than little fundamentalist churches. Little fundamentalist churches
are not generally much of a threat, being little. ;)

>-- Nicholas van Leyden

-Brynjolfr Myrkjartanarson, Compaignie Mercurie, Seashire, Ruantallan, East

      The unwise man thinks he will live for ever if he shuns fight, but
      Old age gives him no peace though spears may shun him. - The Havamal

          The Net: gen0036@husky1.stmarys.ca, gen0036@stmarys.bitnet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Amplification at Pennsic Great Court
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 17:59:07 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center
Keywords: amplified dance

Greetings from Arval! 

I agree wholeheartedly with Aryk that adding amplification in the barn for
court is entirely the wrong approach to the problem.  His suggestions are
good ones: If court doesn't work as it is currently organized, then we
should change the organization, not add modern conveniences to make the
current organization work.  That's just laziness.

As it happens, Aryk, Great Court is not nearly as bad as you remember.
We've gotten it down to a reasonable length: under two hours for the past
few years, and I suspect it will be even shorter this year.  And most of
that time moves pretty fast with quick presentations from distant royalty,
rather than long strings of awards.  Most kingdoms have realized that they
are best advised to do their business at other courts, and only make a
token ceremonial show at Great Court.  While it may be nice to get
particular pieces of business done in such a grand setting, we have long
since grown beyond the possiblity of getting everything in that court.  The
obvious extension is to set a firm limit on the length of business, and do
other business elsewhere.  I think this is the right approach: What is fun
about Great Court is the grand ceremony, and the award-giving is not
central to that ceremony.

As far as the _need_ for amplification goes, let me ask a question: Did
anyone who was there last year feel the need?  I ask because many people
made a point of commenting that they could hear all the heralds without any
problem.  I don't consider it a problem that people can't hear the royalty
themselves; after all, expecting to hear them is an entirely modern
attitude!

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Basic Courtesy
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 17:51:21 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!  Angharad wrote:

> Bertram has raised  the question of courtesy in regard to Lord Stephen's
> posting  about filks.  Once again, I fear I find myself asking,  
> "courtesy in whose sense?"

Your point is well-taken, Angharad, but you and Stephen made an assumption
which I question.  I generally agree that it is disruptive to deliberately
introduce a modern artefact into an SCA event.  However, the Rialto is not
an SCA event, and Stephen had no evidence that the song which was posted
here would be brought to an event.  Courtesy and rudeness are a function of
context; objecting to a filk at an event may be appropriate, but objecting
to it at a post-revel or on the Rialto is certainly not.

> I don't think the issue is courtesy -- except insofar as the lack of
> courtesy by destroying attempts at recreations balances against a
> putative lack of courtesy in using irony to point that out. 

There's this old saying about "two wrongs".  Rudeness does not justify
further rudeness.  You have made Bertram's point for him: Stephen's message
may or may not have been appropriate, but his delivery was not.  Courtesy
is at least as much a matter of form as content.  Indeed, Miss Manners (a
very wise woman) would suggest that it is entirely a matter of form; i.e.,
that good manners is the science of dealing with unpleasant situtations
with the minimum of fuss.  For example, if you are holding a period bardic
circle and someone gets up and starts singing modern filk, there are
courteous and discourteous ways to deal with that problem.  As we saw a
couple weeks ago, even the most courteous redress may be taken by the
singer as rudeness; as you say, Angharad, there are times when it is
impossible to protect everyone's feelings.  However, one can certainly do
one's best to avoid giving injury, and Stephen did not do that.

Stephen, lest you take this amiss, I am not impuning your honor.  I think
you slipped a little from your normal standard of courtesy.  Everyone does
it.  The best advice I can give you is that sarcasm almost never works by
e-mail.  

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
From: MKNETTEL@kentvm.kent.EDU ("Mary Knettel ", Genevieve)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Middle Kingdom Order of Precedence
Date: 28 Jul 92 16:30:14 GMT
Organization: The Internet

Please excuse this last-minute, Pennsic informational announcement.

The Middle Kingdom Order of Precedence (actually, the Alphabetical
Awards Listing) will be available for proofreading and correction/
updating at Pennsic in two locations: Herald's Point (look for the
large pink binder) and at the Sterling Silks booth in the Merchant
area behind the barn (black & white striped pavillion) where I can
be found for the majority of Pennsic.  This is the 7/22/92 update.

The "MKOP" and I will be on site as of Monday August 10th.

Former MidRealmers, please feel free to check your listing and make
corrections; current MidRealmers *please* take the time to check
and make corrections.  Everyone please initial your corrections.
If your listing is completely messed up, please try to see me at
the booth or send me a note after Pennsic.

Any heralds or signets with outstanding court reports may deliver
them to me at the Sterling Silks booth or insert them into the binder
at Herald's Point.  You may also e-mail them to me or send by US mail
(see addresses below).

Please DO NOT send court reports or MKOP corrections to the Rialto.

Thank you in advance for your help.

Genevieve du Vent Argent, MidRealm Clerk of Precedence
Mary Knettel, mknettel @ kentvm.kent.edu
8107 Seasons Rd.
Streetsboro, OH  44241-5739
From: GEN0036@Husky1.StMarys.Ca (GILBERT RICHARD)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Icelandic Religions
Date: 23 Jul 92 14:20:30 GMT
Organization: St. Mary's University, Halifax, N.S., Canada
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.12.SMU

Hossein writes:

>Unto the good gentles of the Rialto does Hossein Ali Qomi send greetings and
>prayers for the blessings of Allah, and especially unto Brynjolfr.
>
>>Well, in the case of Sweden I would find that highly suspect, as the
>>references I've read indicate that Sweden didn't convert until the 12th
>>century, by which point Iceland's laws were rather strict against the old
>>religions. With Norway and Denmark, I can see it as being possible, as both
>>of those were converted by the end of the 11th century...
>
>A case of fingers too slow for thought.  The line should have read
>"examination of _collections_ of the limited parish records extant...in
>Norway and Sweden" -- I wasn't speaking of Swedish parish records, but
>of records held in collections in Norway and Sweden, some of which have
>been published; the documents originate primarily from Norway.

Ah, that makes sense. Understood now... (I've suffered from that particular
disease of electronic networks a few times myself...)

>>Iceland *had* a legal system. And from the date of the conversion (either
>>1000 or 999 depending on who you believe), making sacrifices in public was
>>illegal... along with other pagan practices such as eating horseflesh...
>>
>>It had a rather sophisticated legal system, actually. A *large* section of
>>the Saga of the Burning of Njal (Njall? my copy has a number of anglicized
>>name spellings) is devoted to the suit Kari Solmundarson brings against the
>>Burners... Simply because a nation has no police force or jail doesn't mean
>>it doesn't have any law (altho it did had a simple punishment system - you
>>could be fined, exiled [the 'lesser outlawry'] or outlawed for life)
>
>By "legal system" I didn't mean "system of laws" -- I meant "system of
>law enforcement," which was sufficiently primeval to count effectively
>for naught.  

Hm, yes.

I'll grant you the point, *assuming* you're talking about the mid to late
eleventh century, before Iceland became rigidly Christian... however it
seems strange that people would go to Iceland when Sweden was so close by
(especially to Norway), it being a bastion of paganism until quite late...

>Best Wishes,
>
>Hossein/Greg

-Brynjolfr Myrkjartanarson, Compaignie Mercurie, Seashire, Ruantallan, East

      The unwise man thinks he will live for ever if he shuns fight, but
      Old age gives him no peace though spears may shun him. - The Havamal

          The Net: gen0036@husky1.stmarys.ca, gen0036@stmarys.bitnet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: More Murphy's Laws of Combat.
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 18:53:24 GMT

In article <Brsrrp.H59@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher) writes:
>In article <2108@tymix.Tymnet.COM> jschmidt@oolong.Tymnet.COM (John Schmidt) writes:
>
>>Having missle fire of any sort in the battles makes a world of difference.
>>I beleive it to be positive.
>
>	No archery without cavalry!

Does this mean you advocate constructing cheval de friese (modulo,
spelling), too?

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)

-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: kkr42091@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (QUEEN ZENOBIA!)
Subject: Re: Question....
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 22:46:01 GMT

On the note of antlers if you are a Lapp or a Finn of the later centuries.
go ahead.
Antlers from reindeer were used for everything frfom someplace to put the 
string that you were winding to making knife covers out of them.
the knife vcovers and handlesd can still be seen in todays finnish puukko .

BTW does anyone have documentation for puukkos? or puukot as it is 
plural in finnish

thanks :")
-kimberli roan
kyllikki tapiontyt{r.

-- 
*******************************************************************************
*Kimberli K Roan          * "I have heard the echoes in the dark, * IRC: good *
*901 W Main -Bsmt.        * dim and distant voices of the past,   * luck in   *
*Urbana, Il USA 61801     * and I've seen so far into the night,  * finding me*
From: samlb@optilink.UUCP (Sam Bassett)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Basic Courtesy
Date: 30 Jul 92 05:23:22 GMT
Organization: Naty old codger

In article <28sooB1w162w@micor.ocunix.on.ca> graydon@micor.ocunix.on.ca (Graydon) writes:
}So - maybe people could wander off and think about *why* you went
}'ouch!', and we can talk about this after Pennsic, when there might
}actually be something to say?

	Amen!!

-- 
Sam'l Bassett -- System Administrator 	      (among other silly things)
Work: DSC/Optilink, 1310-C Redwood Wy, Petaluma CA 94954; 1-707-792-7253
Internet: samlb@optilink.com 		      UUCP: uunet!optilink!samlb
From: ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: An Tir Query plus lots of odds and ends
Date: 28 Jul 92 16:30:02 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

Cariadoc (david director friedman) writes:

>I can offer one guess. History as commonly perceived by most people
>is a progression mostly upwards; it tends to be taken for granted
>that the present is better than the recent past, which is better than
>the more distant past (possibly with an exception for the fall of the
>Roman Empire). 

I have also noticed this and consider it a peculiar attitude
to find in the SCA.  It doesn't seem to end at 1600, either.  
There was the period humor string, for example, where several
people insisted that modern humor is inevitably more refined,
tasteful, and funnier than period humor.  In another string,
someone else said that "Two Gentlemen from Verona" was only
enjoyable if it was adulterated with Gilbert and Sullivan tunes.    
I suppose can understand why people might believe such things, 
but I can't really understand why people with such "modernist" 
biases would still be attracted to the SCA.  

-- Nicholas van Leyden
From: Stephen.Whitis@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Stephen Whitis)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Regarding cameras at SCA
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 03:46:12

Eirik wrote...
>       I've never been at a Court where flashbulbs went off (and No
>Flashes is SCA policy).

I have, on several occasions, and it's irritating as hell.  I don't
remember seeing any official rule about it.  Could you cite that
SCA policy?

Video cameras are often used to film fighters at major tournaments.
Some of these tapes are then used to train other fighters.  ("See,
when Sir X throws that shot, his shield drops, and he usually steps
to the right just after he throws it.")  I think this is rather
unchivalrous, since not all fighters have access to these tapes,
and moves us along a path towards a mundane-competitive sport which I
don't like.  And, for these people to do this, they set up mundane
equipment around the edge of the list field and gripe whenever
someone walks in front of it.  (And God Forbid you should stop to watch
the fight!)

Stephen of the Grove
Steppes/Ansteorra        FIDO 1:124/4229
Stephen.Whitis@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org   <-- Working Again?
___
 X MegaMail 2.10 #0:CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE!!!!

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: Godfrey de Shipbrook <jlee@smylex.UUCP>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Interesting garb factoid: verification, anyone?
Keywords: underwear, morals
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 23:29:29 EDT
Organization: Shipbrook Software  (Tampa, FL)

Greetings from Godfrey!

I was looking through a book on late-period costuming recently, and came 
across something interesting.

It claimed that women who wore underwear during this period (Tudor and
Elizabethan) were considered to be of loose morals.

Is this true?

+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Net:  Jeff Lee / jlee@smylex.uucp / jlee%smylex.uucp@tscs.tscs.com     |
| SCA:  Lord Twinkie de Shipbrook / Wyvernwood, Trimaris                 |
|       Per pale azure and argent, a clarion counterchanged or and gules |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
      "Of course!  Lager!  The only thing that can kill a vindaloo!"
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca