From: exukjb@exu.ericsson.se (ken bell)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: A few points to raise . . .
Date: 3 Oct 92 17:48:06 GMT
Organization: Ericsson Network Systems, Inc.
X-Disclaimer: This article was posted by a user at Ericsson in North America.
              The opinions expressed are strictly those of the user and
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In article <72891@apple.Apple.COM> mikel@Apple.COM (Mikel Evins) writes:
>From: mikel@Apple.COM (Mikel Evins)
>Subject: Re: A few points to raise . . .
>Date: 29 Sep 92 17:15:43 GMT

>In article <1992Sep28.174845.2076@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> amorgan@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Crunchy Frog) writes:

>>>In fact, I can state very simply that God *does* exist.  (Yes, I am a
>>>real atheist.)  
>>
>>I hate to break it to you, but by the definitions usually bounced around
>>in this newsgroup you are *not* an atheist if you believe God exists.

>Not so fast. I don't think the situation is anything like this
>cut and dried. I know for a fact that I fit the definition of
>atheist used by at least some participants here (because they
>have told me that I do), but I can honestly say that I think
>God exists (although I'm going to have to explain what I mean
>in order to preserve my honesty; see below).

>There is ambiguity in the conversation because 'God exists' can
>mean any of several things. There is a sense in which I think it
>likely that God does not exist; there is another sense in which
>I think it unquestionable that God does exist. Essentially, it
>is my opinion about what sort of thing God is that makes me an
>atheist.

>If I thought that God were a sentient being with 'independent'
>existence who was responsible for the creation of all that
>exists, then I suppose you would have to say that I am not
>an atheist. However, I don't think that's true. Rather, my
>working hypothesis is that God is a projection of human
>intentionality on perceived order in the universe, and a
>rack on which to hang people's hopes and ideals; in other
>words, a construct, both psychological and cultural. There is
>little question in my mind that this projective construct
>exists; indeed, it seems clear that there is more than one.
>They also clearly seem to have nontrivial effects on the
>society in which we live. One might even propose that, acting
>in the human consciousness that forms their substrate, these
>metaphorical beings exhibit intentionality of a kind.

>So what do you think? Am I atheist or not? (I don't really
>mind if you classify me differently from the way others
>have classified me, nor if you classify me differently from
>my own presumptive working classification).

>It seems to me that the phrase 'God does not exist' is
>idiomatic for a class of claims about what sort of existence
>God is supposed to have. I very much doubt that many people,
>if any, assert that there is actually no phenomenon, psychological,
>cultural, social, or metaphorical, to which the label 'God'
>can be legitimately applied.

Well, if theism is defined as the claim that a supreme independent 
all-powerful creative personal mind exists, then yes, you're more of an
atheist than, say, Spinoza was an atheist; he is certainly a nontheist. 
He was actually a pantheist.  It is probably not worthwhile disputing 
whether a pantheist is just an atheist in disquise.  After all, who doesn't 
believe in the universe?  The same, I think, goes for your "projective
constructs." 

As Hume remarks in his Dialogues, the issue isn't directly about whether a 
god exists, but about what we should mean when we say that a god exists, and 
this is just another way of putting the question about the coherence of a 
set of attributes theists have traditionally ascribed to God.  The question 
of whether anything in the universe instantiates the concept of that set of 
properties comes after.  But this is just another way of making the 
philosopher's oft repeated point, that on the question of God's existence,
"It all depends on what you mean by 'god'".  Trivial, but true.

As for your peculiar form of atheism, Mikel, I can just imagine how a 
christian theist might want to respond. "You want empirical verification
of God's existence?  Wail till ya die."
//////////////////////////////////////
/* Kenny  *   Welcome to Mind Wars! */
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Newsgroups: alt.atheism