From: russ@wpg.com (Russell Lawrence)
Subject: Re: Don't tell the Anti-Hunters
Organization: WP Group
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 08:57:32 GMT


Russell Lawrence writes:
rl> I understood from the beginning of the thread that I don't have 
rl> an obligation to subscribe to your beliefs, thanks to secular 
rl> (not religious) laws that protect my freedom.  What you don't 
rl> seem to understand is that your notions about the rights of "god" 
rl> still threaten my personal rights, even here in the United 
rl> States.  

From article <1992Oct14.051054.5971@ccu.umanitoba.ca>, by chrstie@ccu.umanitoba.ca (William John M. Christie):
wc> Please outline the notions that my faith (not to be confused with
wc> organized religion) has given me that threatens your personal rights. 
wc> Does your American citizenship guarantee you rights that Christianity
wc> tells me I should oppress?  ...

You tell me.  If your God ordered you to kill me, simply because
it suited his pleasure, would you obey?

rl> Several years ago a geologist working for a major oil company here 
rl> in New Orleans was ordered by "god" to kill a woman and two kids.
rl> He succeeded in killing the kids with a knife.  He critically 
rl> injured the woman, but she survived and testified at his murder
rl> trial.  He's now locked up in Angola prison, I believe, where he's
rl> no doubt had quite a bit of time to rethink his belief that
rl> all humans belong to "god".
> ...
rl> Do you agree with me that the man mentioned above violated the 
rl> rights of his victims?  If not, please explain further why it 
rl> would be acceptable to kill someone just because a "god", like 
rl> some great feudal lord or military emperor, commands it?    

wc> Whether he violated their right to life can only truly be seen by 
wc> God.  

So you say, but it looks to me like the murderer clearly violated the
rights of his victims... regardless of the opinion of your "god".

wc> If God had truly ordered him to kill those people then God 
wc> would have a reason for it.  

Perhaps, but there's no evidence to show that this is true, nor 
is there any evidence to indicate that this man's "god" had any 
right to claim the bodies of these apparently innocent 
individuals.  

wc> However you still have yet to prove that it was indeed God who 
wc> ordered him to do so...

Again, you seem to be saying that the badness of an action ought 
to be judged with respect to the status of the perpetrator, 
rather than the impact that the action has on the victim.  
Correct me if I'm wrong, but would you be inclined to say that: 

 -- it's ok for a man to kill a stranger if a one-and-only true
    "god" orders the killing
 -- it's ok for a man to kill a stranger if he's affiliated with
    a government or some other powerful entity
 -- it's not ok for a man to kill a stranger if an ordinary 
   "god" orders the killing, rather than a one-and-only true god
 -- it's not ok for a man to kill a stranger if he's performing
    the killing on his own authority

Do the attributes of the victim ever make any difference?  Or, would
you say that the attributes of the men/gods performing the killing
are the only ones that count?  

> ...
rl> Forgive me if I'm misinterpreted your position, but when I asked 
rl> you if you would kill someone on the orders of "god" you said, "I 
rl> would have to act as the spirit moved me".  No offense, but I'm 
rl> not sure that I'd feel comfortable in your presence.  You seem to 
rl> think that my rights are subject to the whim of some "spirit" 
rl> that apparently resides within your head.  If your "spirit" 
rl> suddenly said, "Kill witches", or "Kill heretics", or "Kill men 
rl> with dark skin", my life might be in danger.  

wc> Why, are you a witch?  :-) You must be awfully uncomfortable then 
wc> since I think the majority of the U. S. population is 
wc> Christian...

Which may explain why a Gallup poll conducted several years ago
showed that the majority of the US population didn't support the
major tenets of the bill of rights.  :-)

wc> Seriously, you offered me a hypothetical extreme situation.  I 
wc> answered in as best a way as I thought.  I alone will choose to 
wc> do what I must in a situation like that, and it will not only be 
wc> God but human society that will judge me for it.  However your 
wc> question is moot, since the time of the New Testament God has not 
wc> ordered us to kill anyone but in fact be more tolerant to one 
wc> another: 

This isn't true.  Literally millions of people died between the 
12th century and late 17th century because "god" apparently 
ordered his followers to kill each other in his name.  In fact, 
"god" is still commanding some people to kill, even today, in 
places like Ireland, Israel, Yugoslavia, Iran, etc.  

Of course, you may argue that the "god" that commanded these killings
isn't the same "god" that you worship, but the fact remains that
rights (both human and animal) will remain in jeopardy as long as
some men believe that the property rights of their deity are more
important than the personal rights of thinking/feeling beings. 

> ...
rl> You think that your "god" is superior to a relatively tiny, 
rl> insignificant individual like myself so it would be ok to kill me 
rl> if "god" commands it, without regard for my thoughts and 
rl> feelings.  By the same sort of logic, you say that I'm more 
rl> superior than a cow, so it'd be ok for me to kill a cow if it 
rl> suited my purpose, without regard for the cow's thoughts and 
rl> feelings.  

wc> If God really wanted to kill you I doubt God would have to ask me.  

Right.  If "god" really wanted humans to eat meat, he could 
simply put the flesh on the table...  ready to eat, without 
requiring us to treat animals so inhumanely.  And likewise, a 
true God could have waved his magic wand and caused the men and 
women that were killed in his name to vanish instantly.  As it 
is, some skeptics like myself are inclined to believe that humans 
kill humans...  not because a genuine God wills it so, but 
because some of us don't give a crap about the thoughts and 
feelings of our victims.  And likewise, perhaps some of us kill 
animals, not because a true God really wants us to, but because our 
selfish desires seem more important than the suffering of our 
less powerful animal relatives.  

-- 
Russell Lawrence, WP Group, New Orleans (504) 443-5000
russ@wpg.com   uunet!wpg!russ
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals