HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Michael.Norrish@comp.vuw.ac.nz (Michael Norrish)
Subject: Re: Technology and Morality in LOTR 
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, Victoria Uni. of Wellington, NZ.
	<STSSRAM.92Dec10162816@st.unocal.COM>
	<1992Dec11.103940.24568@leland.Stanford.EDU>
	<lewchuk.724202935@therien> <BzB3s8.AF9@sci.kun.nl>
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 03:28:36 GMT

>>>>> On Tue, 15 Dec 1992 15:16:55 GMT, heinr@sci.kun.nl (Hein Ragas) said:

Hein> _Nothing_ is inherently evil, and _nothing_ is inherently good.
Hein> (Challenge me on this one, if you dare. ;) ) _BUT_, most things
Hein> can be used either way. You can use a sword to defend innocent
Hein> people (using it for "Good"-purposes), or you can use it to loot
Hein> and pillage (using it for "Evil"-purposes). The same goes for
Hein> horses, palantiri etc. Sauron, the allways-and-ever-"Evil"-one,
Hein> got a hold of a palantir, and used it for his own "Evil" ends.
Hein> Same goes for the horses etc.  An object is never "Good" or
Hein> "Evil", it's the being that uses it that is doing "Good" or
Hein> "Evil" things. A gun doesn't kill, it's the person that pulls
Hein> the trigger.

Hein> Food for thought?

Well maybe, except that it is blatantly obvious in the case of the One
Ring that this is NOT true. The Ring is inherently evil, and there's
nothing that anyone in Middle-Earth can do about it. The Ring is an
object, and is also evil. 

There, do I get a chocolate fish or what? :-)

Michael.

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: s13989bc@UMASSD.EDU
Subject: reign of aragorn
Reply-To: s13989bc@UMASSD.EDU
Organization: UMASS DARTMOUTH, NO. DARTMOUTH, MA.
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 05:26:04 GMT

 I've been looking through my Tolkien collection and I can't seem to find any 
information as to how long aragorn's reign lasted. I thought I had seen it
somewhere before. I know his forefathers had reigns that were longer
than the spans of mortal men who were not Dunedain. If anyone has
this info could you please e-mail it to me Thanks a heap.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: solovay@netcom.com (Andrew M. Solovay)
Subject: Re: Balrogs vs. Ringwraiths ... and a questi
Organization: People's Front of Judea
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 18:46:49 GMT

In article <BzB75E.C8L@sci.kun.nl> heinr@sci.kun.nl (Hein Ragas) writes:
>
>Moria is easy to defend. And outside, the Balrog is surrounded by Elves
>(in Lorien and in Rivendel). I think the Balrog would wait for the War to be
>over, and if Sauron won, then to get out of Moria and be a mayor ally of Sauron,
>and if Sauron lost, to stay put in Moria. At least, that's what I would do.

If Sauron won, he could just offer Gandalf's ring (Narya? The
ring of fire) to the Balrog. The Balrog would gain a *lot* of
power. Sauron would gain complete control of the Balrog. Sounds
like a plan.
-- 
Andrew Solovay    

"SILENCE = QUIET"
                --Girljock Magazine
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: dickeyml@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Gaelmeth)
Subject: Bombadil
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 02:08:47 GMT

Could someone post a summary of the discussions on Tom
Bombadil?  I have not been able to find any good text
on where he can from/originated and what his purpose,
if any, is.  For whose purpose does he serve?  His own?

Is there any reportable past worth mentioning?  He seems
to be a very interesting (read: Powerful) character,
but does not receive enough "coverage" to fulfill my
interest.  Please feel free to refer me to any books
that are readily available; I may be interested in 
purchasing them if necessary (I will make sure they are
Ballentine  :) )

Thank you.

Mike D.
~~~~~~~
dickeyml@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
mdickey@sage.cc.purdue.edu
-- 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  ______                         dickeyml@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
 //   ___   ____   ______ __     __   __ ______ ______ __   __
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU (James Alexander Chokey)
Subject: Re: Question: LOTR Wizards
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 11:01:39 GMT

In article <1992Dec15.092926.6703@muddcs.claremont.edu> aleneis@jarthur.claremont.edu (Tony Leneis) writes:
>Jeff Liss writes:
>>Also, what does Gandalf mean
>>when he declares himself to the Balrog as "a servant of the Secret
>>Fire"?
>
>Well, I would guess that he either was referring to the fact that he wears
>Narya the Great (elven ring of fire), or that he's saying that he is a
>servent of Eru and the Vala.  Since the rings were always hidden and secret, I
>would tend to lean towards the latter.  

	Interesting logic:  The ring of fire that Gandalf wears is a secret, 
so his comment about being a servant of a Secret Fire is unlikely to be a 
reference to it.  :-)

	--  Jim C. <jchokey@leland.stanford.edu>

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: erikt@sci.kun.nl (Erik van de Tier)
Subject: Re: THE Movie
Organization: University of Nijmegen, The Netherlands
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 11:35:27 GMT

>Let's (in the very least) put together a "wish-list"
>{It IS the season, you know} of our own.  Surely
>we will agree, for the most part, on character roles, for
>I feel that we all have roughly the same idea of Tolkien's
>characters as we do today's actors/actresses.  I would
>thoroughly enjoy seeing Jack Nicholson, Harrison Ford,
>{Wesley from _The Princess Bride_ - sorry can't think of
>his name}, Michael Keaton, Daniel Day Lewis, and a few
>of the other noteable actors/actresses in this film.

What about Sean Young (Eowyn)? She's one of my favourite actresses !
If you don't know who Sean Young is , she played Chany (Dune) and
what_was_her_name (the replicant woman in Blade Runner).

_____________________________________________________________________
Erik van der Tier (erikt@sci.kun.nl)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: craig@b11.b11.ingr.com (Craig Presson)
Subject: Re: Where do orcs go upon dying?
Organization: Intergraph Corp. Huntsville, AL
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 19:16:34 GMT

a70860@uwasa.fi (Carl Patrik Andila) writes:

>Thorongil (paul@pj.tmc.edu) wrote:
>: If when elves die they go to the halls of Mandos, and orcs are nothing
>: more than captured elves corrupted by Melkor,[...]

Origin stories for all of the races would definitely be grist for the
FAQL. In particular, I don't think what you say here is attested; I
remember statements about the Orcs being made _in mockery of elves_ or
some such, in similar vein to the creation of Dwarves from stone by
Aule. Same argument, lesser importance, for Ents>>Trolls. I'll try to
find the textual support for this ... all/any welcome to beat me to it.

>	I suppose they do, unless Morgoth grabs their souls on death, there
Since Morgoth was banished from Ea after the Battle of Wrath at the end
of the First Age, that's a long reach.

>is no mention of his doing this in any of the books. Thus they can claim
>their birthright as descendants of the free peoples. The evil/semi-evil
>elves of the first and second ages certainly did get to the Halls of Mandos.

>-Patrik

There were no elves as corrupted as an Orc, no matter how far they
followed Feanor or his sons.

-- Craig Presson
  "Here is the heart of Elvendom on earth," he said, "and here my heart
  dwells ever, unless there be a light beyond the dark roads that we
  still must tread, you and I. Come with me!" And taking Frodo's hand in
  his, he left the hill of Cerin Amroth and came there never again as
  living man.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: rwang@husc8.harvard.edu (Richard Wang)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Sorry to belabor this, but...
Date: 14 Dec 92 19:32:39 GMT

Yes, I know we've beaten the subject of Bombadil to a miserable death, but
I have one last question.  In "Fellowship" the Ring is seen to have no
effect on Tom; its power does not affect him.  Now, the ring is simply an
item of magical power, similar to the Silmarils.  And we have seen that
even Valar (especially Morgoth) were not immune to the power of the
Silmarils.  So Tom's immunity means (to me, at least) that he is not Valar
or Maiar or indeed anything else explainable in such terms.  I think we
can safely say that he is *not* Maiar, in fact, because the Rings have
power over Gandalf, Saruman, and Sauron, who are all Maiar.  And what
about his original name--Iarwain Ben-Adar, if my memory serves me correctly?
Can one of the linguists out there tell me what that means?

Richard Wang
rwang@harvard.husc.edu
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Eowyn
Date: 18 Dec 1992 12:41:04 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In article <31157@nntp_server.ems.cdc.com> joannek@ems.cdc.com writes:
>I think all this talk about lowering her standards is nonsense.  Eowyn, as I 
>recall, wanted to marry the king, i.e. she wanted to be the queen.

I don't think this is entirely fair to Eowyn.  Eowyn didn't want to 
marry the king, she wanted to marry Aragorn.  Since Aragorn is probably
the most impressive man in LOTR, that's an entirely understandable
ambition.  I don't think Eowyn had been as eager if the heir to the
reunited kingdom had been Wormtongue...
From: winkler@zrzsp12.bg.tu-berlin.de (Barbara Maren Winkler)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Movie Roles ....
Date: 20 Dec 1992 14:08:34 GMT
Organization: ZRZ/TU-Berlin
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: zrzsp12.bg.tu-berlin.de

In article <BzC39o.GIJ@acsu.buffalo.edu>, sulkom@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Mark Sulkowski) writes:
 
|> 	Well, Shawn Connery (sp?) did Aragorn's voice in the movie
|> _The Return of the King_ I believe.  Quite well I might add.  He
|> can give a "kingly" impression and is an excellent actor.  Perhaps
|> he would do.

No, Sean Connery for Gandalf!
Or did anyone have a better suggestion? (I have been ill lately and
couldn't follow the thread. Has anyone a complete list of the cast
so far?)

Christopher Lambert as Aragorn. (Needs to dye his hair black, but then...)

Marie-Louise Parker (Was this her name? "Ruth" from "Fried Green Tomatoes")
as Arwen.

Madonna Ciccone as Galadriel. (She could play out all her royal ambitions.
She could perfectly be a queen-like, untouchable beauty.)

--
Barbara Maren Winkler                   winkler@zrzsp12.bg.tu-berlin.de
=======================================================================
From: rwang@husc8.harvard.edu (Richard Wang)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Question: LOTR Wizards
Date: 18 Dec 92 00:44:48 GMT

>>   In article <BzAAIH.685@unix.amherst.edu>, jdliss@unix.amherst.edu (Jeff Liss) writes...

>>   >I don't know if it's every explained.  Also, what does Gandalf mean
>>   >when he declares himself to the Balrog as "a servant of the Secret
>>   >Fire"?
>>
>>	   The secret fire of Illuvatar.  The fire of creation itself.

>I always thought that this was a referance to his secret ownership of
>the ring of fire. This was also related to his skill with fireworks as
>seen in the shire, several times in The Hobbit, (remember his fireballs
>from hte trees into the warg's coats?) and in his lighting fires on the
>snowy mountain just out of Rivendell and in the traversal of Moria.

>					Skip Egdorf
>					hwe@lanl.gov

I don't believe the Ring of Fire was what he was referring to.  After all,
he was not its servant; it was, instead, a tool he used to augment his own
powers.  And its power lay not in the making of war, but in the ability it
afforded him to cheer, succor, and rally the forces of the West in their
darkness and despair.  My opinion is that he was referring to the flame of
creation and life, which Iluvatar set at the heart of the World, and which
Melkor always sought.  It should be in the Valaquenta, in the
Silmarillion, somewhere towards the beginning.

Richard Wang
rwang@husc.harvard.edu
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: solovay@netcom.com (Andrew M. Solovay)
Subject: Re: Balrogs, Nazgul, and Sauron
Organization: People's Front of Judea
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 18:42:00 GMT

In article <15DEC199223111480@juliet.caltech.edu> waynebro@juliet.caltech.edu (Broughton, Wayne Jeremy) writes:
>In article <3063@israel.nysernet.org>, warren@nysernet.org writes...
>> 
>>The Witch-King ruled the realm of Angmar, drove Earnur from the field
>>of battle (only withdrawing when confronted with Glorfindel, would you
>>mess with someone who once killed a Balrog?), and directed the Siege
>>of Gondor.  He doesn't have much trouble finding and stabbing Frodo
>>(which is all he thinks that he needs to do) on Weathertop.  They do
>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>fear fire, (why?) and since they have nothing else to do up there,
>>they get out of there.
>
>I thought the Nazgul were actually trying to take possession of the
>Ring.  What good would it have done them just to kill Frodo?  They 
>wanted to return the Ring to Sauron.

The morgul-blade wouldn't exactly have *killed* Frodo; it would
have turned him into a lesser wraith, slave to the Witch-King
(and thus to Sauron). Gandalf explains this in book II, ch. 1
("Many Meetings").
-- 
Andrew Solovay    

"SILENCE = QUIET"
                --Girljock Magazine
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: paul@pj.tmc.edu (Thorongil)
Subject: Re: the Balrog in Moria
Organization: Mississippi State University ERC
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 19:33:26 GMT

Dave Hall (Sverdrup) writes:
>Charles A Collins writes...
>>The dwarves would surely have been incapable of
>>PREVENTING that invasion, but since no mention is made of them attempting
>>to do so we might assume that the balrog hid itself from them or entered the
>>caverns through some hidden route. Indeed the cavern that the balrog inhabited
>>there might not even have been attached to Moria at the time of its invasion.
>>The dwarves may have awakened it by expanding into its area.
>
>1) The Balrog(s) were servants/creations of Morgoth meant to help defeat
>the forces of good. Sauron is also a servant/emmisary of Morgoth. The 
>rings fashioned by Sauron for the dwarves inspired them to dig deeper
>due to a lust for glod, thus disturbing the Balrog and causing the great
>dwarvish fortress under the mountains to fall. Sounds like a plan to me!
>No force could conquer Khazad-Dum from outside. The defenses were too strong.
>It had to come from inside!
>
>2) The Balrog never left Moria because it was performing a service for its
>master (Morgoth). It prevented the dwarves from re-establishing their 
>stronghold. The Misty mountains became infested with Orcs and trolls. The
>Elven folk of Lothlorien (almost next door) were even more cut off from their
>potential allies the dwarves. 
>

First of all, Balrogs are not creations of Morgoth.  Read the _Silmarillion_ .
It specifically says that they are Maia.

Second, read Appendix A in LotR.  It says that the Balrog fled from Host of 
the West and hid itself under the mountain.  There was no plan to conquer
Khazad-Dum from the inside either by Morgoth or Sauron.  

Thorongil
From: paul@pj.tmc.edu (Thorongil)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Elf-human pairings (Re: Tolkien a Racist?)
Date: 11 Dec 92 15:54:06 GMT
Organization: Mississippi State University ERC

Julian C. Lander writes:
>1) In Tolkein's world, women (adult females of any sentient race) are not 
>heroic in the sense of fighting battles and returning trophies.  Men are.
>The only "battling woman" in any sense at all is Luthien, 
> 

Tell that to Eowyn.  Seems to me she killed off the head of Sauron's
army without the help of a man.  ( She did have a little help from a 
*male* hobbit though :)

Thorongil
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: aleneis@jarthur.claremont.edu (Tony Leneis)
Subject: Re: Question: LOTR Wizards
Organization: Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 09:29:26 GMT

Jeff Liss writes:
>Also, what does Gandalf mean
>when he declares himself to the Balrog as "a servant of the Secret
>Fire"?

Well, I would guess that he either was referring to the fact that he wears
Narya the Great (elven ring of fire), or that he's saying that he is a
servent of Eru and the Vala.  Since the rings were always hidden and secret, I
would tend to lean towards the latter.  I seem to recall that Eru used the
secret fire to make the Vala, Maiar, Elves, etc.  (I'd losely interpret it
as our concept of the "spark of life".)  Also, interestingly enough, wasn't
it a lust for the secret fire which corrupted Melkor?  Kind of adds something
to the anti-science-n-technology debate going on here...  The ultimate in
"technology" - the creation of life - corrupted the one who was arguably the
greatest of the Valar.  Anyway, back to the question, he was probably just
letting the Balrog know that he is allied with the Valar and was capable of
causing the Balrog quite a bit of trouble in the hope that the Balrog would
be frightened and back off.  (After all, Gandalf certainly did not want to
be separated from the party of the ring.)  The Balrog probably figured
either he was bluffing (and hence would be easy pickings), or perhaps he was
afraid of letting Gandalf get away for fear that he would be hunted down
later.

Tony
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: egdorf@zaphod.lanl.gov (Skip Egdorf)
Subject: Re: Question: LOTR Wizards
Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 23:22:53 GMT

In article <BzC3IE.GoM@acsu.buffalo.edu> sulkom@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Mark Sulkowski) writes:

>   In article <BzAAIH.685@unix.amherst.edu>, jdliss@unix.amherst.edu (Jeff Liss) writes...
>   >I don't know if it's every explained.  Also, what does Gandalf mean
>   >when he declares himself to the Balrog as "a servant of the Secret
>   >Fire"?
>
>	   The secret fire of Illuvatar.  The fire of creation itself.

I always thought that this was a referance to his secret ownership of
the ring of fire. This was also related to his skill with fireworks as
seen in the shire, several times in The Hobbit, (remember his fireballs
from hte trees into the warg's coats?) and in his lighting fires on the
snowy mountain just out of Rivendell and in the traversal of Moria.

					Skip Egdorf
					hwe@lanl.gov
From: det@phlan.sw.stratus.com (David Toland)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Aragorn: (was Re: Movie roles)
Date: 15 Dec 1992 13:51:36 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Software Engineering
NNTP-Posting-Host: phlan.sw.stratus.com


Aragorn should be played by Sean Connery.  He has the weatherworn, craggy
features, and is uniquely capable of carrying the regal majesty as well.

-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
All opinions are MINE MINE MINE, and not necessarily anyone else's.
det@phlan.sw.stratus.com   |  "Laddie, you'll be needin' something to wash
                           |  that doon with."
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU (James Alexander Chokey)
Subject: Re: Paths of the Dead
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 00:33:00 GMT

In article <1992Dec13.192412.7902@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca> slogan@mta.ca writes:
>
>     The paths of the dead part of LOTR has always confused me. In all the 
>numerous times i have read LOTR i have had to reread and concentrate really
>hard each time i read this section or i get terribly lost. I dont really 
>know why, perhaps because i really didn't understand what what was 
>happening, but i think i do, or maybe its becuase of Tolkiens style of 
>writing but it always confuses me. 
>    I dont mean just the passing through it but until the end if the end 
>of 'The Passing Of The Grey Company'. I was just curious if anyone in this
>grouphad any further insight into the matter.
>

	I think you're right.  There's something about the way the passage
is written that makes it rather confusing.  I think the same is true, to 
a certain degree, with the episode inside of the barrow.  Both passages
seem to take place in this weird dream-like state that seems to be a mixture
of fear and delirium.  Funny that both of them also take place in underground
areas inhabited by the dead (or creatures closely associated with the dead).
Both episodes, IMHO, seem to have a certain unreal quality to them--  I can't
put my finger on just what it is that makes it that way though.  Any ideas?

	--  Jim C. <jchokey@leland.stanford.edu>

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: djweisbe@unix.amherst.edu (David Weisberger)
Subject: Re: Eowyn 
Organization: large
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL7]
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 17:03:55 GMT

James Alexander Chokey (jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU) wrote:
: 	But in the end, she changes her mind.  She renounces her desires to
: go out to battle, to travel, and to do all of the things that female 
: characters just don't do in LOTR.  Instead, she decides that she'd be
: quite content simply to do what all the other women in Middle-earth do--
: get married, stay at home, and take care of domestic affairs.  By having
: Eowyn, the only character who mounts a challenge to the ideology of female
: domesticity in LOTR, renounce that challenge and happily accept the status
: of a married stay-at-home, Tolkien is effectively saying that her initial 
: discontent with that status was a youthful mistake.
: 
Alternate interpretation, same evidence: Tolkien suggests that battle and
adventure might be necessary, but there are more important things.  Eowyn
was wrong to see fighting as a desirable way of life.
Actually, Tolkien seems to value domestic, rural life much more.  But
I'll stop with that thought, since it's really crossing into the
technology thread.

--
Davebo                    "Don't believe I'm taken in by stories I have heard.
                           I just read the Daily News and swear by every word."
djweisbe@unix.amherst.edu
Organization: Bar-Ilan University Computing Center, Israel
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 15:16:14 IST
From: <X67107@BARILVM.BITNET>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Foriegn Translations of LOTR
Distribution: alt.fan.tolkien

There is a Hebrew translation of the LOTR. I never bothered to read it.
There is a lack of hebrew mythology (it is all religion i.e. the bible so
this must have given the translator a hard time. I never liked the way
elves were colled the 'children of Lillit'. On the other hand we do
have the orginal Mount Morria.
Incidently there are two tranlation of the Hobit. First came the standard
version. Latter some one published another tranlslation, which had been
made by some Israeli troopers that had been P.O.W.ed in Egypt. One had a
a copy of the Hobbit and used it to teach some of the other English.
This way they also tranlated it. (Why not the hobit as a first enlish text)





-------------------------------------------------------------------------
H A H A H A H A H A H A H A H A H A H A H A H A H A H A H A H A H A H A H
                       Oren THE Laughing Magican
        LAUGHING DOES TICKLE THE SOUL, THERE IS NO BETTER REASON
=========================================================================
From: sulkom@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Mark Sulkowski)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Thomas Covenant
Date: 14 Dec 92 01:52:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <7029@sersun1.essex.ac.uk>, leitm@essex.ac.uk (Leith M F) writes...
>In article <Bz2Evs.L5I@acsu.buffalo.edu> sulkom@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Mark Sulkowski) writes:
>>In article <Bz22E0.D7w@access.digex.com>, dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) writes...
>>>(Incidently, one thing I particularly liked about the Covenant books.
>>>The protaganist felt genuinely guilty about killing orc-equivalents.
>>>I found that a refreshing change after Legolas and Gimli's contest
>>>at Helm's Deep to see who could kill more enemy cannon fodder.)
>>
>>	Agreed.
>>
>Oh my god, people aren't trying to apply political correctness to the 
>slaying of orcs now, are they ? :-)

	Orcs have feelings too.  Tolkien should have been brought up
on charges for racial harrassment.  :^)  (I'm kidding, of course.)


>What you appear to be overlooking is that orcs *deserve* death generally.

	I'm not overlooking it.  I believe in the justness of self-defense
and retaliation in war.  It was nice to see that Covenant valued life,
even if it was the life of his enemies.  Covenant was mistaken not to
fight.  But at least he was mistaken on the side of kindness.


Mark