From: George Paap <george_paap@email.sps.mot.com>
Subject: Documented Evidence
X-Xxdate: Thu, 31 Dec 92 12:15:44 GMT
Organization: Motorola RISC
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d16
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 18:15:06 GMT

In article <1992Dec31.121331.18973@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com> bill nelson,
billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com writes:
> I just want documents, from the period, by someone besides a church
> official - or someone who has been under torture (or threatened
.....
>  I still will not believe the
> statements of someone without some proof. It is easy to make claims,
> witness those by our current President. Can you provide a document
> dated to prior to about 1950 that refers to the craft? If you know

I have some thoughts on this.  While at Berkeley I took a fascinating
couse called "American Material Culture".  It traced social,
religous, cultural transitions in America over the last 200 years
using things like gravestones, pipe design, china, archeological
evidence etc. (ie without emphasizing written history).  One of
the things I remember was how different the "actual" lifestyle/
culture of the slaves was compared to the written historical
account.  (not that this is an analogy).  My point here is that 
there is information other than written proof and that there
is often a significant difference between history based on the
written evidence of the few people who were able or willing to
document their experience and the "actual" history (based on
a complete appraisal of all the above information).  And this
is just in the last 200 years, a time which is certainly better
documented than pagan ancestry.

Now I agree (regretfully) that many pagan books are poorly
referenced or researched and I would certainly prefer an 
exhaustive list of sources I could read myself.  However,
I don't require an "definitive source" before I evaluate
and incorporate ideas into my beliefs.  I weigh their
validity based on my limited knowledge and opinions, and
discard them if "better" information comes along.  Yes,
claims are easy to make and much of what we read here are
only opinions, but some are more informed than others and
in the absence of written proof, I'll accept an informed 
opinion over, "I can't read it, so I don't believe it".

A final point on relevance.  I'm not sure I would change
my belief system if tomorrow some tome was uncovered revealing
the "actual" rituals, practices, and beliefs of ancient pagans.
In fact, I'm glad that we don't have a "bible" which locks in
words "the right way to do things" or the "proper" beliefs.  I
don't really care if these beliefs were created in 1950 (although
I really believe they are "ancient").  They work for me and
provide me with a spiritual framework with which to positively
affect my life and the world around me.  I think what will 
ultimately cause the collapse of christianity is the fact that
the belief system (for most people) is no longer relevant to
their day to day lives, or is effective in addressing the enormous
problems we face and will face as a global society.

For me, spirituality must be creative, experiential, and relevant, and
that doesn't require "definitive proof".

Just some more opinions,

George

I am my beliefs.
(which almost certainly are not those of my employer)