From: daveb@pogo.wv.tek.com (Dave Butler)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Calvinism (was: *I* am THE way.)
Date: 19 Aug 92 00:39:12 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Wilsonville,  OR.

Ken Arrombee points out the doctrine of Calvinist doctrine of common grace in
reply to my logical conclusions concerning Steve Gross' Reformed Calvinism:

>In article <16048@pitt.UUCP> geb@dsl.pitt.edu (gordon e. banks) writes:
>>>Steve Gross again promotes Calvinism:
>>>A logical conclusion of your Calvinism should be stated as: 
>>>	"Be as vile as you like, it will have no effect on salvation; you 
>>>	can get to heaven anyway.  On the other hand, if you are not destined 
>>>	for salvation, at least you will have gotten some satisfaction for 
>>>	actually deserving hell, and maybe even punishing a few of the 
>>>	'chosen' who will celebrate your eternal punishment." 
> 
> Not only that, but "be as vile as you like" assumes that you have the choice
> to be more or less vile.  If the Calvinists are right, not only don't you
> have the option of doing anything to affect salvation, you don't really have
> the option of doing anything, period.  You can't _decide_ to be vile, and so
> you can't take advantage of this God's rules.

Quite true Ken, according to Calvinism, Common Grace keeps man from descending
into that abyss of total depravity which is the basis for Calvinism.  But
remember that Steve Gross is defending a "Reformed Calvinism", which in his
words allows us true free will in anything but salvation:


> ----I do beleive what Calvin says yes.   I would consider myself more of a
> reformed  Calvinist though.  Hard to explain in a short time.
> Free will is not the issue here Mr. Adams.  Everyone has a free will
> indeed, but that is not important when it comes to salvation.  I agree
> with you that Salvation is a free gift, but I disagree with you that we
> have the ability to "choose" God.  If we are born into sin, i.e spiritual
> separation from god, the, how could we ever hope to get together again? 
> The bible says that we are wicked, and that if left to our own ways, we
> would NEVER choose God.  We are not puppets, as we have a free will.  We
> are, however, not able to choose God.  Free will never enters into the
> Salvation equation.

and
 
> ---- This is not entirely correct.  The doctrine of predestination only
> applies to Salvation.  The rest of the bible's truths and doctrines apply
> to everyday life.  You could not do anything you wanted and get away with
> it, because the Holy Spirit would convict you  of your sin.  True enough
> though, it would have no effect on your salvation, as salvation is
> forever.   Hence the bible saying No man can pluck them out of my hand 
> (paraphrase by me from John's gospel somewhere near the 15th ch.)

In the context of Mr Gross' "Reformed Calvinism", it is quite appropriate to
conclude that we have the choice to be more vile.  Further, even true
Calvinist, like Jonathan Edwards, used the argument that if you act like one
of the elect, you might be one of the elect, while if you act like a non-elect
then you are definitely damned (In fact the Puritans like Edwards actually
elected "Visible Saints", who were the only ones allowed a voice in the
running of the towns, the only ones allowed to participate in communion, and
people who's children were the only ones allowed baptism).  His reasoning
though, in assert one should act like an elect, so that one might be an elect,
was flawed.  Since salvation is not dependent on works, nor can one earn it,
vile behavior is no indication of future damnation; it only shows that one
is not presently among the elect (which is more honest than pretending that
one of the elect, when one isn't).    
 
				Later,

				Dave Butler

    The will is so bound by the slavery of sin, that it cannot excite
    itself, much less devote itself to anything good.
				John Calvin
				Institutes