HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Queens by right of arms...
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 19:12:56

 JS> A gentle correction:
 JS> The Princess by Right of her own hand was not Trudy 
 JS> Lacklandia, but Maythen of Elfhaven, who won a five part list quite      handily.  Sir Maythen is known for many  virtues.
                                             
 Thank you, also, John, for correcting my mis-memory of the event.
 I remembered better than her name the lovely letter in the TI, wherein she  corrected those who thought that 'she probably just won the costming and arts  stuff and got by in the fighting' -- wasn't it either heraldic display or  chess that was the ONLY thing she didn't win -- and came in second in that?

 JS> be a pretender to the viscounty--most amusing.

 Aye -- that it is!

 JS> And Lady Bolverk Momchilovich, of Lion`s Gate, strenously objects if      you call her sir.  She deems the title of "Sir" the wrong gender, 
 JS> and corrects all who miscall her.

 She must have to deal with a lot of confused new people then.....  Glad to  hear of one chosing to go her own way.

 -- Vashti




 

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: vader@meryl.csd.uu.se (]ke Eldberg)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: name from the netherlands???
Date: 2 Oct 92 22:17:40
Organization: University of Uppsala, Sweden
	<1992Oct2.110434.13220@odin.diku.dk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: meryl.csd.uu.se

Believe us. We live in Sweden, we read Swedish history, we are
familiar with the names. "Lundgren" belongs to a type of surnames
that were invented when Sweden was dropping the patronymics and
needed lots and lots of new surnames to replace all the -son names.
 
There are hundreds of them. Lundgren, Lundkvist, Lundberg, Berggren,
Bergsten, Bergkvist, Sandberg, Sandsten, Sandkvist, Stenberg, Stenkvist,
Stenstrom, Stromberg, Bergstrom, Lundstrom... etc ad nauseam.
 
Few of these are pre-19th century. None are pre 18-th century.
 
Amen.

William de Corbie
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: Fylfots and such
Organization: University of Toronto -- Office of the Provost
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 02:29:50 GMT

On the subject of the death's-head badge used by the Killer Elite (so many
years agone), I would make one point.

I am the sort of fellow who would tell somebody to lose the thing with the
swastika on it, so don't mistake me for a loony here.  But the skull and
bones insignia used by the Totenkopf and other divisions of the SS was used
by, various other units, including Prussian light cavalry and the English
17th Lancers, who still use the badge, which is the death's head, with a 
scroll bearing the words "OR GLORY" -- Death or Glory that is.

So the skull and bones is a commonly used piece of military insignia still
in use by non-fascist armies, and does not merit the same consideration as
the swastika.

I do not think for a moment that the old Killer Elite had the 17th Lancers
cap badge in mind.

Aryk
From: vader@meryl.csd.uu.se (]ke Eldberg)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Jousting in Stockholm
Date: 28 Sep 92 17:58:19
Organization: University of Uppsala, Sweden
	<VADER.92Sep26140757@meryl.csd.uu.se>
	<1992Sep28.133717.29796@bmerh85.bnr.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: meryl.csd.uu.se
In-reply-to: cav@bnr.ca's message of 28 Sep 92 13:37:17 GMT

Greetings from William.

I can understand why the jousters use fake armor, too; after all, it's
equestrian showmanship, not a real fight. Did you notice, Balderik,
that most of the teams wore their heraldic arms displayed on their
chests? As I understand it, that is not authentic.

The Swedish horse trappings are better-looking than the others,
but as you say, they may encumber the horses on tight corners.

William
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Feet Voting
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 08:18:52

    Pedro de Alcazar wrote:

 CL>    On the other hand, some households stay out of politics
 CL> entirely. The household I belong to, the House of the Moss Rose, has
 CL> stayed out of politics almost altogether, since we're newcomers and
 CL> are really a group of friends who as a group within the SCA have
 CL> adopted that name.

 Very true. But such households are a minority, in my experience.

 CL>      IMO, households form a useful part of the SCA. Newcomers are
 CL> brought into our group, receive literature and tons of encouragement
 CL> to join in the fun from us, buy fabric and have their garb made by my
 CL> lady, our seamstress. Later, they go to events, with one of us sort of
 CL> escorting them around to explain things they don't understand, and eat
 CL> with us, as sort of one big supportive family.

 Gee, my Barony does that as a whole, without any households getting
 involved.... 8-)

    Tadhg, Obelisk

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: archery officers
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 21:20:34 GMT

In article <BvCruJ.Aw7@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher) writes:
>You might try calling the folks in charge of archery in a specific group
>the constable.  Not a lot is known about field command of common foot, but
>it is generally accepted that they were supervised by the same constabulary
>which inspected their arms at musters.
>
>If you are worried about confusion with the constables who are in charge
>of lost-and-found, or the constables who are in charge of security, or the
>constables who are watching the list ropes, then you might call your
>fellow the Archers' Constable or something.

For a minute there I thought I might get archers as a backing force
for site security....   :-)

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: dawyd@dorsai.com (David Gruzynski)
Subject: Re: Term limits for barons
Organization: The Dorsai Embassy +1.718.729.5018
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 22:42:37 GMT

   I find the concept of term limits for Barons to be stupid in the extreme!
In several cases that I have seen, there have been massive power plays and knock down drag outs in groups that were changing Barons/Baronesses.  I can imagine  what we would have in Ostgardr if Ian and Katherine were to step down!  Its too horrible to contemplate!

   We would be trading a system that, at least, is one that is stable and 
harmless for one that would encourage political fights, and destabalize groups.
We don't have to have the bad points of the feudal system here.  Its hard enough to play this game right.

              Baron Dawyd z Gury

-- 
David Gurzynski                            Brooklyn NY
Prodigy: KGHM08A  and davidg6642@aol.com
Baron Dawyd z Gury CS CSC           East/ Crown Province of Ostgardr
From: Beth.Appleton@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Teaching dances at events
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1992 19:03:46

 MS> on playing music specifically for dance, and there were two
 MS> dance class tracks, simple, and advanced.
 And don't do what the Stargate (Ansteorra) Dance guild did when *they* 
 ran the Kingdom Dance Workshop -- their "beginner" track was "dances that Stargate already knows how to do", and "advanced" was "dances 
 Stargate hasn't learned yet".  It made the choices for non-Stargaters 
 rather peculiar, to say the least.....
 (since they knew *some* complicated dances, which were thus on the 
  beginner track, and didn't know some simple ones, which were on the 
  advanced track....)
     Gwenllian Cwmystwyth, Steppes, Ansteorra

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: Historical Survey Question
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 14:53:32 GMT

Mikjal mentioned the previous membership survey being
sent by mail, about 10 years ago.

According to the Board Minutes, there was also a membership
survey taken in 1991.  It does not mention the numbers for
either of those historical surveys.

I should point out that the questionnaire was unofficially 
distributed on the Rialto. I know, I typed it in.

I doubt the reasoning behind the following:
               I also remember a lot of grumbling by the Board and
  Officers in the BoD Minutes about the cost of the survey, which may be
  why they didn't take that approach this time.

They did send out a direct mailing, advertising the new Known World
Handbook, shortly thereafter.  If money was a factor, why would they
have done this direct advertising, rather than ask the newsletters to
publish an ad?

	Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: james@wrs.com (James Moore)
Subject: Early period Irish names - interesting article
Reply-To: james@wrs.com
Organization: Wind River Systems
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 05:26:48 GMT

I ran across an article in Celtica (vol 10, 1973, pp 212-236; Celtica
is the journal of the Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies) that would
be of interest to anyone interested in early Irish names.  It's
entitled "Old Irish Personal Names," by Michael A. O'Brien and covers
the period 400-1000 ad.  It discusses the original sources of the
names, and has a list of the commonest names in use.

-- 
James Moore                            /|\                        james@wrs.com
Wind River Systems                     \|/                  Alameda, California
	 "Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half
			  didn't mean anything at all"
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: greg@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Hossein Ali Qomi (mka Gregory F. Rose))
Subject: Re: using period words t
Followup-To: rec.org.sca
Organization: The Rialto
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1992 21:57:55 GMT

Unto the good gentles of the Rialto does Hossein Ali Qomi send greetings
and prayers for the blessings of Allah.

Master Ioseph recently wrote:

> -=> Barbara Nostrand said to All on 09-07-92  20:48 <=- 
>
> BN> Now for a minor exercise in reconstructive linguistics.  "gate"
> BN> derives from Middle English < Old English "geat".  Thus, "troll"
> BN> could possibly be replaced with "geatweard".
>
>Wierd Geats? Hm! 

O, Ioseph, for shame.  Surely you confuse geatas (with a long mark over the
e, the OE term for the ON gautar) with the OE gaet or geat (no long marks
over either the diphthong or the e).  And not "wierd", but "warden," from
the OE weard (from OE weardian, to guard, occupy).  The modern English
would be "gatewarden."

What would Wiglaf (long marks over the i and a) say? :-)

Best Wishes,

Hossein/Greg
Who is having much too much fun with this for his own good

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: hwt@bcarh11a.BNR.CA (Henry Troup)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Term Limits for the Landed Baroncy
Date: 6 Oct 92 12:58:35 GMT
Reply-To: Henry.Troup@BNR.CA
Distribution: world
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa, Canada

Disclaimer: I'm a landed baron (well, I play one in the SCA).

It seems to me that it takes a couple of years to fit in (I think I've
been baron for two and a half years) and see what the barony wants and
needs.  Conversely, someone who is wrong for the job can do massive
damage in six months.  I don't know what the term should be.
N.B. the Middle does not have a term limit on barons.

  Henry Troup - HWT@BNR.CA (Canada) - BNR owns but does not share my opinions
From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Consultants needed
Date: 29 Sep 92 12:21:21 GMT


 HA> Tadhg writes,

 HA> >Put me down for the following --
 HA>  ^^^^^^^^^^^
 > C> Mediaeval
 > C>    Heraldry
 > C>    Names (by language?)
 > C>    Feudalism
 > C>    Cultures/Religions

 HA> Pray tell, of what medieval, heraldic, onomastic, feudal, cultural and
 HA> religious offenses are you guilty, my friend?  The mind boggles...

 Premeditated authenticity ... just ask anybody.

    Tahdg, Obelisk

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: keradwc@news.arc.nasa.gov (Kevin Connery)
Subject: Staking out the Eric. (Was: "Autocr Dancing from Pictures; Waiversi)
Organization: Ringworld Engineering and Design
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 18:26:19 GMT

Corun MacAnndra quotes Dorothea, and asks:

>>They had -- just -- but we had this feeling that it wasn't appropriate
>>to ask the King and Queen to call the Parks Department and reserve the site,
>>make sure the restrooms had toilet paper [this was before we were big
>>enough to need large unimproved sites necessitating the rental of
>>porta-privies], or stake out the Eric.  
>
>
>Stake out the Eric? That's a new one on me. Please explain, M'Lady. IMWTK!

Ah, my lord. 'Tis a fine old Western custom at large events, to find
a gentle named Eric, and plant him in the middle of the fighting area.
It's great sport.
 
;)  ;)  :) ;)  :(  ;)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :)  :|  :) :)

Keradwc
  Not-an-Eric
-- 
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 | Keradwc an Cai     |       Adfui, Feci        |  In the Mists of the West |
 |--------------------|--------------------------|---------------------------|
 | Kevin Connery      | Quality must be designed |   Speaking FROM, not FOR: |
 |                    | into software; it cannot |   Integrated Systems, Inc |
 | kconnery@isi.com   | be patched on afterwards |           Santa Clara, CA |
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ross@chem.queensu.ca (Ross Dickson)
Subject: Re: Term Limits for the Landed Baroncy
Organization: Dept. of Chemistry, Queen's University
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 17:20:35 GMT

In article <1992Oct06.152116.22942@watson.ibm.com> mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:
>Greetings from Arval!  Henry writ
>       ...: The job is so ill-defined that there is no objective way to
>evaluate the incumbent or a candidate.  And that may be the very best
>argument in favor of term limits: If there is no good way to decide when
>you need a new baron, then changing them regularly may be very wise indeed.

Sorry, Arval, but that's no argument at all, since it cuts both ways.  
You say, "We can't tell when they get stale, so we should throw them out
regularly."  You might as well say, "We can't tell whether they're
getting any better, so we should keep them in longer just to be sure."

You have, however, just raised the *real* question, which is, "What 
should be the role of a landed baron/ess?"  This discussion might benefit
a great deal by pursuing that topic before returning to the term issue.

Having said that, I will now place myself firmly in the camp that says,
"Different strokes for different folks."  Some baronies would no doubt
prefer their leadership to have the benefit and aura of long experience.
Some would no doubt prefer that they don't have to get out the knives to
get rid of their leadership when they are tired of them.  I say let the
baronies decide for themselves.  Consequently, make no law on the matter!

Angus Mackintosh /  Ross M. Dickson, ross@chem.queensu.ca
  
From: Ruth.Woodring@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Ruth Woodring)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Membership Privileges
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 19:30:28

 >c. Autocratting events.  Again, not truly a privilege.
 WH> I think this squints.  If I felt strongly that Autocrats *ought* to be
 WH> members (and some of the reasons that apply to officers apply here),
 WH> then a logical dodge is to take out a membership in the name of
 WH> "Autocrat of the Branch X".  The newsletter could then be passed on to
 WH> whoever is autocratting the next event and a request to pass it on

 The reasoning on the above is that the autocrat is acting as a deputy  Seneschal (at least in Ansteorra) -- making decisions on how the group's  money can be spent, & entering into contract agreements.  Yes, we all know  your local seneschal is the legal agent and therefore the one who is supposed  to be siging the contract -- but this sometimes falls by the wayside.  For at  least 3 or 4 months, this person is going to be majorly affecting your lives  in the Society in your group -- getting you to come t



o work parties, talking  you into helping out with the event.  I think they should be a member.  So  does the Kingdom here.

 WH> members (and some of the reasons that apply to officers apply here),
 WH> then a logical dodge is to take out a membership in the name of
 WH> "Autocrat of the Branch X".  The newsletter could then be passed on to
 WH> whoever is autocratting the next event and a request to pass it on
 
 An interesting idea.  Might work.  But what happens when planning for events  overlap?  In our Barony, we've had years where there were as many as 5  events in 10 months -- it wouldn't work here.

 -- Vashti, soon to be giving up being Central Region Seneschal....


 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: salley@niktow.canisius.edu (David Salley)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Forwarded from s.c.c. for Craig Cockburn
Date: 1 Oct 92 12:39:07 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Canisius College, Buffalo NY. 14208

trifid@agora.rain.com (Roadster Racewerks) writes:
> Following forwarded from soc.culture.celtic at request of Craig Cockburn:
> ........................................................................
> If you would like your association to be listed free of charge in the
> Encyclopedia of Associations, the standard reference guide to
> associations, societies, and other nonprofit organizations, please fill
> out the following form and return it to:
	[ Form deleted to save space ]

The SCA is already in this encyclopedia.  Check out Vol 1 - National 
Organizations of the U.S., Section 6 - Cultural Organizations.  Over 30 lines
of copy.  When I did my Baccalaurate Thesis on Heraldric Linguistics, I
quoted the whole thing as background explanation of SCA. 

                                                       - Dagonell

SCA Persona : Lord Dagonell Collingwood of Emerald Lake, CSC, CK, CTr
Habitat	    : East Kingdom, AEthelmearc Principality, Rhydderich Hael Barony
Disclaimer  : A society that needs disclaimers has too many lawyers.
Internet    : salley@niktow.cs.canisius.edu
USnail-net  : David P. Salley, 136 Shepard Street, Buffalo, New York 14212-2029
A bad day in the list still beats a good day in the office.  -- Dagonell
From: helm@jade.ucdavis.edu (Catie Helm)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Expensive Armour
Date: 1 Oct 92 04:37:56 GMT
Reply-To: helm@jade.ucdavis.edu
Organization: Geology Department, University of California, Davis


>My current dilemma is this: I shelled out A$50 for a hide of red suede
>for my coat of plates. Putting it together, it gives me great protection,
>weighs next to nothing (until I put the mail skirt on ;) and looks really
>spiffy (with black leather straps and silver buckles to fasten it). But
>I also have the tabard I appliqued and embroidered with my device, specifically
>to cover my (assumed) shonky armour ... so the problem is: WHAT TO WEAR?!?

I will always favor heraldic display.  I vote for the tabard.

So now I will stir up the pot again ;->  I have never been able to
find any evidence or documentation that sueded leathers were used in
period.  The process of sueding is done by a rather sophisticated
machine which splits a hide during the modern tanning process.  (To
get really technical, a "split" is what most people call suede;
actually "suede" is a split which has had a nap put on it by yet
still another tannery machine.  So, all suedes are splits, but not
all splits are seude.)

In my library of leather sources, all the period pieces are full grain.
So I will throw the question out to the Rialto - does anyone have any
sources that show that splits and/or suede are period?

>-- Richard of Dunheved, Lochac.

Twcs, who is honestly curious about this
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Catie Helm, internet: helm@geology.ucdavis
Stable Isotope Lab, Geology Dept.
University of California, Davis
From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period terminology
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 12:10:43

    Arval wrote:

 JM> By refraining from using "-crat" words, we avoid a modern artifact,
 JM> which I think is a definite improvement. By refraining from using
 JM> "car", we give up part of medieval culture to avoid modern
 JM> associations; it is not so clear when this is a good thing.

 An excellent point. Are we here merely to "feel medieval"? Or are we here
 to appreciate the extent to which medieval things still affect our daily
 lives? Surely it might be possible to do both...

 JM> Let me construct a hypothetical example, harkening back to an old
 JM> Rialto discussion. Suppose I were able to document that in the 14th
 JM> century, some people wore blue fustian trousers with brass rivets,
 JM> etc., exactly like modern blue jeans. Should I wear them to SCA
 JM> events? If I do, then most people will see a modern artifact at the
 JM> event and those who care about the medieval atmosphere may be bothered
 JM> by what they perceive as a 20th century intrusion. If I decide not to
 JM> wear my medieval trousers in order to avoid giving this impression,
 JM> then I am letting other peoples' ignorance limit my research and
 JM> re-creation. In effect, I am assisting other people to remain ignorant
 JM> by playing to their mis-conceptions of medieval culture.

 Similar things happen for real. Master Da'ud ibn Auda has a robe made of
 an excellent black-on-dark-green plaid, which he has documented as having
 been used by Arabs in period. He carries around the documentation with
 him, in case someone should be so unwary as to reproach him for wearing
 something Scottish in an otherwise Arab costume. (On the other hand, most
 of us who know him are aware that he wouldn't wear it unless he could
 document it, so we keep our traps shut.) Either way, people learn more of
 what they didn't know (and wouldn't have suspected) about medieval life.

    Tadhg, Obelisk

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: What is a Baron (territorial)
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 22:34:20 GMT

[Statistic alert!]

In article <1992Oct6.202035.659@PA.dec.com> haslock@rust.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock) writes:
>
>Status. Barons have high status due to their rarity, on a par with triple
>peers and dukes (however Barons need to hold their titles for a long time
>to get this kind of status although aspiring Barons may believe that it
>comes with the title).

That may depend on where you live.  As the West has 15 Baronies, I
think that Landed Barons are a bit rarer around here than triple-Peers
and almost certainly rarer than Dukes.

for reference, the Baronies fall in the following areas:

	Mists (Greater Bay Area):		3
	Cynagua (Central Valley & Nevada):	1
	Oertha (Alaska):			3
	Lochac (Austrailia):			5
	Marches (everything else):		3

My data for Lochac is a bit old, but new Baronies don't pop up too
often.

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca