From: pbenjami@sjuphil.uucp (Paul Benjamin)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Sierra and Clemente
Date: 13 Apr 92 14:57:04 GMT
Organization: Saint Joseph's University

In article <1992Apr9.113554.2491@otago.ac.nz> guilford@otago.ac.nz writes:
>In article <1992Apr7.162505.11395@sjuphil.uucp>, pbenjami@sjuphil.uucp (Paul Benjamin) writes:

>> In article <204487@unix.cis.pitt.edu> dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu (David M Tate) writes:

>>>What were Clemente's skills?  Hitting for high average, playing defense, and
>>>hitting more triples than any other player since WW2.  Clemente, in his prime,
>>>routinely hit .330-.350, in a time when pitchers were dominant.  His 160-some
>>>triples are an astonishing feat for his era.

>> He had the top batting average for the 1960's. So, offensively he was more
>> like Boggs and Gwynn and Carew than Sierra. The kicker is that he was
>> a combination of that type of offense and phenomenal defense, which none
>> of the above had. 4 batting titles and 12 Gold Gloves.

>Uh, no, Clemente was much more like Sierra than Boggs or Gwynn or Carew.
>He hit home runs.  Sierra has hit .300 two of the last three years.  If
>you like, Clemente was more like Puckett than Sierra.

Well, Clemente hit HRs, but was never a slugger in any sense.
I believe he may have, if he had played in a HR park, but that is
clearly a biased view on my part. Puckett is just someone whose
stats are inflated by playing half his games in a small park.
I still stand by my statement that, as the top percentage hitter
of the 60's, Clemente can be compared with Carew, Boggs, etc., so
we see Clemente as a super percentage hitter who had some power and
great defense. I think this is a better comparison than with Sierra,
because there is really no similarity at all between them, except,
as Dave Tate has noted, they are both Puerto Rican.

I am not saying this is a "best" comparison, just one way that we
can see Clemente's greatness. Another comparison: Clemente was the
Brooks Robinson of right field, except he won 4 batting titles.
It just makes you appreciate that he wasn't just another "superstar".

>>>What do I mean by that?  Simply this: Sierra has already had three offensive
>>>seasons better than Clemente's second-best year.  Sierra is 26 this year; 
>I think DT's numbers showed otherwise....  If you have access to a
>baseball encyclopedia, look up Clemente's career sometime.

If you trace back the >>>'s, you'll see that you are responding to
someone else here (Dave Tate). I have a baseball encyclopedia, and
have Clemente's numbers virtually all memorized.

>> harder on RH hitters. Only Kiner did well there, by pulling the ball
>> right down the LF line. Clemente early in his career was intentionally

>Was that the original "Kiner's Corner?"

Yep.

>> copying Kiner's approach, and hit 20+ HR twice, but then Stargell was
>> brought up from the minors, and Clemente intentionally changed his
>> hitting approach to emphasize average over power to get on base in
>> front of Stargell (I think this a mistake, in restrospect). Can you
>> imagine a guy who just won the MVP changing his hitting approach in
>> this way? Unbelievable.

>What's the matter with this?  He won the MVP at 31.  Your own numbers 
>(PRO+) showed Clemente putting up his best years at the ages of 32 and 34.
>He slugged .536 in the MVP year, then .554 and .544 in the other two. >His OBP went up.  It kind of looks like it worked, doesn't it?  Or
>at least it didn't fail miserably....

Well, Clemente was a strange one, with his best years in his 30s. I
see no reason to think he couldn't still have had top years at 35, 36,
etc. Certainly, he was still hitting for percentage and fielding at
a very high level at age 38.

>> Clemente doubted his power. Certainly he had at least as much as
>> Yazstremski (sp?) who got 400HRs. If Clemente had played in one of

>While we're randomly twitting old Carl, everyone remember to remember
>this fascinating stat: Reggie Jackson's lifetime road BA was .015 higher
>than Yastrzemski's....

Yes, I think there have been numerous players who have really benefited
from playing in parks well suited to their hitting, like Reggie in
Yankee Stadium.

>> If Clemente were playing today, and in Wrigley/Fenway/Atlanta/etc.
>> I think we'd be looking at 35HR, .350+BA, .400+ OBA, .500 slug, with a
>> Gold Glove every year. In other words, Boggs with the power of
>> Bonds or Sierra, and better defense than anyone else.

>A second connection with Boggs.  Boggs with power and better defense, and
>also with speed and without patience at the plate.  Boggs is probably the
>median distant ML player from Clemente.  

Could be. I wasn't trying to come up with the closest player to
Clemente in any sense, and I'm not sure there really is a close one in
the majors right now. Just comparing along certain dimensions.

>One wonders if there aren't some current ML players who could benefit
>from trying to cut down on power and raise their average.  Maybe George
>Bell should try it.  Probably couldn't hurt.

Maybe Andy Van Slyke. If he could learn to go the other way more
often, maybe he could finally hit lefties. (Just a dream).

Paul Benjamin
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball