From: ramon@convex.com (Ramon Dominguez)
Subject: Re: Thoughts on Sexual Harassment
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 03:39:50 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: The Arts Babblative and Scribblative
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In article <C0pHKx.6x1@cmcl2.nyu.edu> mckenney@cims.nyu.edu (Alan McKenney) writes:
=>In article <1993Jan9.000909.28592@news.eng.convex.com> ramon@convex.com (Ramon Dominguez) writes:
=>>In article <3408@bsu-cs.bsu.edu> pjself@bsu-cs.bsu.edu (Beverly Crusher) writes:
=>>=>But what I think a lot of this comes down to...at school, at home, at
=>>=>work....is that some boys are not taught (and so as men don't have) to
=>>=>have  *RESPECT*  for girls/women.
=>>
=>>But boys don't have any respect for *each other* at that age, either.  I agree
=>>that people of all ages should respect people in general.  Certainly boys
=>>shouldn't subject each other to the kind of abuse that they do, but given
=>>that they do, this line of reasoning seems sexist to me.  My stepdaughter was
=>>abused, not-quite-beaten-up, by a group of three older *girls*.  I don't
=>>think that at that age, sexual harassment is really different from all the
=>>other kinds of harassment:  you're fat, you're ugly, you smell, what-are-you
=>>chicken?
=>>
=>>Sorry, but I think this is an unsolvable problem.  If you can stop boys from
=>>beating each other up (ask some male colleagues how many fights got into in
=>>K-12 that they didn't start), then you might have a prayer of getting them
=>>to treat girls with respect.  Face it, children are little savages and until
=>>they get civilized they will act accordingly.
=>
=>    This is "unsolvable" only if you assume that the disrespect and
=>    violence is due to nature (as opposed to "nurture".)  My memories
=>    of growing up suggest to me that a large part of the violence that
=>    children show to one another is due to *training*, at least as far
=>    as boys are concerned.

It doesn't matter which is the cause, because we're not talking about
individuals, we're talking about society at large.  If this were a solvable
problem, then so would be alcoholism, homelessness, drug abuse, divorce,
auto theft, murder, and so on.  We are never going to make everyone in any
society, particularly a grade school into a model of socially acceptable
behavior.  I think you're talking here about the problem being solvable
*in principle*, while I am talking about the problem being not solvable
*in practice*.

=>    First, I think that training boys in particular to be tough,
=>    violent, and contemptuous to women and feminine things is pervasive
=>    (in the USA.)  If you haven't noticed it, I can only wonder where
=>    you grew up.
=>
=>	[examples deleted]

Sure, I've noticed.

=>    So boys learn not to respect themselves (since who they naturally
=>    are causes them to be humiliated or worse) *and* to have even
=>    less respect for girls, who are the embodiment of all those
=>    things in the boys that they are humiliated for.

I can't go along with this.  I would maintain that it is women who are
consistently taught not to respect themselves.  *Some* boys who are 
constantly beleaguered may lose respect for themselves, but that is probably
the result of the parents constantly berating the child (child abuse, actually).

Also, a large part of the macho folklore that male children are brought up
with teaches them to be protective of women, to be chivalrous.  Many men put
women on the proverbial pedestal due to the very same indoctrination that you
invoke here.

=>    Second, there is a widespread acceptance in this country of hitting
=>    children -- boys *and* girls -- and otherwise using violence and
=>    humiliation (the latter being verbal violence) against them, not
=>    only as a way of controlling them, but also as an outlet for any
=>    anger or frustration that the grown-up may feel.

No way.  This is neither acceptable nor accepted.  It does however happen
a lot.  But you're statement is like stating that there is a widespread
acceptance of drive-by shootings in this country.

=>    This fills children with anger that they can only express against
=>    other kids (try hitting your father back, when you're a kid!), as
=>    well as teaching them that violence, verbal abuse, etc., are o.k.,
=>    as long as you don't do it against someone who can get you into
=>    trouble (or is bigger than you.)

It's only natural, literally, to attack only smaller, weaker opponents.  No
one needs that spelled out for them.  The point I tried to make with the
anecdote is that girls are violent against other girls, and against smaller
weaker boys at certain ages.  Stop looking at the world through your
theoretical model, the data don't fit it.

=>    So, if you believe that it is possible to change *grown-ups* (and
=>    I grant you, this sometimes seems pretty impossible), then I think
=>    that this problem is not so unsolvable as you believe.

Oh well, you just conceded everything right here.  It doesn't just "sometimes
seem impossible", it *is* impossible.  Especially when you realize that we're
not talking about an individual, but about all people.  You have reduced the
problem to changing all of society.  As I said, not solvable.

Look, I went to public schools.  I went to school with the same kids from K-12.
The ones who harassed girls were the same ones who harassed, intimidated, and
beat up boys.  These were the kids with really screwed up home lives, although
I didn't know it at the time.  Abusive and alcoholic (or worse) parent(s),
probably poverty cases, no guidance and no hope.  I learned this only later,
after I had graduated from college, and found out what had become of these
people (I grew up in a small town).  At the time, I felt that I was getting
the last laugh and gloated because I spent twelve years hating these people.
At that point, they had jail records and I had an Ivy League degree.  Time heals
certain wounds though, and now I feel sorry for them.  Somehow a wasted life
seems cruel and unusual punishment for beating me up once or twice.  Now I know
that they were probably getting beaten far worse in their own homes than what
they did to me.

=>    Finally, I agree that children will always show *some* "violent"
=>    tendencies, i.e., hitting, biting, grabbing.  I have a 2-year-old boy,
=>    who tends to rather, er, direct ways of getting what he wants.

Right.  It is the parents job to tame, then civilize.  Some parents abuse
and brutalize instead.  

=>    The question is, what do we teach them to do about their
=>    tendencies, and the feelings that they express?  Right now, many or
=>    most adults deal with children in a way that is (as if) calculated
=>    to make them truly violent (no quotes) and abusive.  On the other
=>    hand, I believe if we treat children with respect (so they will
=>    have less *need* to abuse others) and teach them better ways to
=>    deal with their anger, frustration, etc., then they will actually
=>    become *less* "violent" as they grow older.

*Most* adults?  Where did you grow up?  That is an outrageous statement, and
I'd be interested in seeing whether *anyone* out there agrees with or would be
willing to defend it.

Anyway, they *do* actually become less violent as they grow older.  It's
children who grow up without hope who become violent, abusive, and apathetic.
Small wonder.

=>-- 
=>Alan McKenney        E-mail:  mckenney@cims.nyu.edu         (INTERNET)
=>Courant Institute,NYU,USA     ...!cmcl2!cims.nyu.edu!mckenney   (UUCP)
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I went to college with Courant's granddaughter.  Pretty cool, huh?  Hey, Lucy!
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--ramon (not)
-- 
Ramon Dominguez             | "Work is the curse of the drinking class"       
Convex Computer Corporation |                            --Oscar Wilde
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