From: noel@crs.cl.msu.edu (Noel Estabrook)
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian
Subject: Re: Is music amoral??
Date: 23 Aug 92 18:18:02 GMT
Reply-To: noel@crs.cl.msu.edu.UUCP (Noel Estabrook)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Michigan State University

In article <1992Aug22.175010.9641@uoft02.utoledo.edu> steiner@jupiter.cse.utoledo.edu (jason "Think!" steiner) writes:
>>  the Lord should be our music - "The Lord is my strength and song, 
>>  and He has become my salvation.." (Ex. 15:2)  The Lord is to be 
>>  our music, not a group of unbelieving, unrepentant sinners singing 
>>  to their own gods.
>
>unless you believe that God physically manifests himself in harmonic
>pressure disturbances, it should be quite clear that this passage
>is poetic, not literal. God isn't our muscles either. the Psalmist
>was making a very good point, that God is our motivating force.
>poetic comparisons (and logical statements) aren't commutive.

Well, no, I don't have a problem with God manifesting Himself as music.  
After all, He's manifested Himself as a cloud, a bush and He's spoken 
through a donkey, so I won't restrict what form He may choose to take.
In fact, in II Chron 5:10, the music that was played was so powerful that
a cloud (the glory of the Lord) filled the entire hall.  In a way, you're
right, this is poetical language, but in another sense, it can indeed be
taken literally.  If all of our musical effort is put forth to glorify Him,
then He has, in effect, become our song (or at least the Source of our
song).
>
>> As for the precedent for using music as praise, the Scriptures are 
>> replete: Ps 33:1-5,68:25,92:1-5,144:9,Neh. 12:36 and IIChron 23:13 
>> to name but a few. My favorite, of course, is Ps 150 "Praise God in 
>> His sanctuary, Praise Him in His mighty expanse...Praise Him with 
>> trumpet sound,Praise Him with harp and Lyre, Praise Him with 
>> timbrel and dancing, Praise him with stringed  instruments adn 
>> pipe.  Praise Him with loud cymbals, Praise Him with resounding 
>> cymbals.  Let everything that has breath praise the Lord"
>
>wonderful. we should praise God with our music.

Yes, and if we can do that with music, why should we even look for another
reason for music besides worshipping Him?
(I know, you'll flame this as escapist, emotional and illogical, but hey,
that's life)

>hmm. i wonder if the Israelites invented a whole new style of music
>for worshiping the calf. i'd be willing to wager that it sounded
>quite like the stuff they had played before. as i said before, it's
>our idolatry that God hates, not the object.
>

No, I don't believe a particular wave form or rythm pattern is Satanic.
However, we have reached an interesting point.  You say that music in
and of itself is not a moral agent.  But consider: until music is actually
conceived, composed and performed, IT DOESN'T EVEN EXIST.  Music only exists
AFTER someone has GIVEN THEIR purpose to it!  When we talk of music, we are
speaking of something that is already created.  Before man created the wheel,
we were unable to talk about it.  The same with music - until someone actually
writes a particular song, we are unable to even discuss it because it doesn't
exist.  Once it does exist, however, we can discuss it, and it is at that 
point that we can no longer view it as an amoral agent - because it does have
purpose and intent.

>> Regarding the amorality of music more specifically, though.  Let's 
>> take a look at a couple more Scriptures Found in II Chronicles.  In 
>> 7:6, the chronicler refers to "music _of_ the Lord" and in 30:21 he 
>> speaks of "instruments _of_ the Lord".  Now it seems to me logical 
>> (how's that, ME being logical :)) that if there is music and 
>> musical instruments OF the Lord, then there is  also music and 
>> musical instruments that are NOT "of the Lord".
>
>so what makes an instrument "of the Lord" or not "of the Lord?" i would

I would say to "look at the fruits".  If a particular piece of music is
being used to glorify God and edify believers, it is "of God".  If it is
not being used for these two purposes (as proposed by Scripture) it is
not of God.  Quite simple.

>and how does something become Gods? when we -give- it to him. offering

Wrong. God owns everything
>sacrifice, but God has made it pretty clear that he'll take -anything-
>these days, as long as it's done to his glory. (at the time the issue
>was meat. hot dogs and pork & beans are easy for us to consecrate
>today. "dear god, bless this meal, amen." music just happens to be
>the tough point for many of today's Christians.)

I don't think God will accept "just about anything"  We are to be 
sanctified, set apart for His holiness.  Else why would Romans tell us
to present our bodies a living and HOLY sacrifice?  Possibly because we
CAN defile our bodies and offer an UNHOLY sacrifice that is unacceptable?
>
>> As a counter-example to the above, let's take Eccl 2:8-12.  In this 
>> passage, Solomon laments his downfall.  And what should he list as 
>> a contributer but music! "Also, I collected for myself silver and 
>> gold, and the treasure of Kings and provinces, I provided for 
>> myself male and female singers and the  pleasures of men - many 
>> concubines...and all that my eyes desired I did not  refuse them, I 
>> did not withhold my heart from my pleasure...thus I  considered all 
>> my activities which my hands had done and the labor which I had 
>> exerted, and behold all was vanity and striving after wind"`
>
>was -music- Solomon's downfall? as if. (sorry, Eccl is my favorite
>book of the Bible, you're -not- going to mislead me on this one.)
>Solomon's problem was that he wasn't giving God his honor and dues.

Sorry, I don't think I was misleading anybody.  I simply pointed out 
that music was one of the things Solomon listed as contributing to his
falling away from God's ways.  You're right - he wasn't giving God his
honor and dues, and obviously he felt that his music was one of the ways
in which he wasn't doing so.  If I misled anyone, I ask forgiveness.

>would his music have still had the power to lead him astray had he
>kept his focus where it belonged from the beginning? i doubt it.

Possibly.  Besides, this is a chicken/egg question.  Did the things of
the world cloud his focus, or did his removing his focus cause him to
get involved in "worldly" things?

>uh-huh. so tell me: when it comes to a particular piece or style of
>music, do you believe that it can be used in a variety of different
>ways or not?

In a limited sense, yes.  For instance, "It is Well With My Soul" can
be used in a variety of settings - worship, praise, celebration, etc.
It can not be used (unless, of course, those using it alter it in some
way)for Satan worship, God's degradation, etc.  By the same token, a
song done by someone not committed to God CAN be used in different contexts,
but (and again, unless it is altered) it can not be used to glorify God.  Keep
in mind, when you alter a piece, you have in effect made a different piece of
music - it is no longer the same.
>
>> It is clear, then, that music is NOT amoral.
>
>WHA? where'd you suddenly pull this out of? no such thing is clear.
>what's clear is that our -use- of music, like any other amoral device
>that makes it holy or unholy, profitable or unprofitable.

I didn't think it was sudden at all.  Remember my argument above, once a 
piece of music is made (which is the only point at which we can judge it),
it DOES become a moral agent, one way or another.  I don't even think we
can discuss music in a vacuum and somehow separate it from it's uses or
intent, because that's not the way music works.  It IS an agent.
>
>so: here's the -REAL- question: do you believe that the -author's-
>intent is more powerful than the intent of the listener? i would
>say not.

I would say so.  I guess we'll just disagree on that one.  Unfortunately,
I don't think there is any Scripture that would back up either assertion.
>
>> This is a clear point in favor of the fact that the intent of 
>> the author IS vitally  important.  David made Psalm 150 so clear, 
>> that one could not get any  interpretation from it other than the 
>> author loved and wanted to praise God.
>
>great. and if someone chooses to sing that while mocking the song, is
>the intent still there? was the intent in the music (long lost) or
>the words? if the words are lost instead of the music, is the intent
>still evident?

Like I said before, if someone sings it as mockery, they are going to have
to alter it, thus making it in essence a different song.  I'm sure that if
we heard Psalm 150 played the way David wrote it, it would have much more
meaning and impact than when it's simply read aloud.
>
>AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY!
>
>noel, it has been my sad experience that whenever this "It's God's
>logic, you wouldn't understand" argument rears it's ugly head it's
>because the person stating it is incapable of proving their point
>using mere "human" logic. the very statement that "God's logic
>contradicts our own" is nothing more than a vast & unfounded criticism
>on par with "well, everyone knows the Bible is full of inaccuracies."
I didn't say it's God's logic, you don't understand - I said it's God's
logic, WE don't understand.  I defy you to explain in a worldly logical
manner why God, being the Creator and Supreme being above all else, 
decided to lower Himself to become human, so that He could be ridiculed
and killed, in order to save our petty lives.  No fair saying "because
He loves us".  The fact remains that God's logic is not human logic.  It
seems logical that if we do enough good stuff and are basically a good
person, we should make it into heaven, whether we've done it in God's
name or Confucius name or Buddha's name - but God doesn't work that way.
It has to be HIS way or no way at all.  If you can pretend to know all the
mysteries and thoughts of God, I guess I can't refute it, just shake my
head.  If I have misinterpreted what you're saying, please enlighten me.

As to your second argument above, try to explain and justify "faith" on
human logic.  Pascal tried it, but I doubt if his logic will save him.

As for saying that the "God's logic is not our own" as being vastly 
unfounded, you should take a look at Isaiah 55:8,9 "For my thoughts are
not your thoughts, Neither are your ways My ways' declares the Lord, 'For
as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your
ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts'".  Saying that we can't understand
is not a cop-out, it's reality.
>please open your Logic 101 textbook and tell me which one of the

Nah, I'll stick with Scripture.  There's nothing in a logic textbook that
Scripture can't tell me better.

>yup. we would. fortunately, encountering and contemplating are two
>entirely different things. have you realized that in writing Screwtape
>Letters CS Lewis had to contemplate those very things that would
>send us screaming for the exits if we were to encounter it face-face?

Yes, in fact, Lewis said that writing that book was one of the most
unpleasant experiences he has ever had.

>if Scripture cannot stand in the relatively minor light of man's
>reasoning then it is not worth the paper it's printed on. 

I think the more important point is, can it stand up to God's reasoning -
I don't really give a rip if it can stand up to my feeble brain or not.  I
want to know if it's TRUE and if it's God's mind revealed - and I believe it
is.
>
>             IN THE NAME OF GOD PEOPLE, WAKE UP AND THINK!

Hmm, as far as a human CAN think, I've always considered myself a pretty good
one.  Sorry if I don't measure up to your standards.  I sure hope I measure
up to God's, though.
>
One of my favorite sayings because I think it so perfectly reveals our
inflated opinions of ourselves is as follows (I saw it written on a 
chalkboard somewhere):

"God is dead" - Neitschke
"Neitschke is dead" - God

How true!



--
Noel Estabrook          |       Let us not merely do that which is our
noel@crs.cl.msu.edu   __|__	RIGHT, rather, let us desire to do that
Educational Technology  |	which IS right - Me
Michigan State Univ.    |				Romans 12:2
Newsgroups: rec.music.christian