HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: deb@spectra.eng.hawaii.edu (David Barrett)
Subject: Re: Contradiction with science
Organization: Sun Microsystems of Canada, Inc.
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 01:49:47 GMT


In article <1992Nov9.140838.353@newscan.canada.sun.com> arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:
>
>Unfortunately, that does not really answer the question.  What happens if the
>actual religion and science seem _not_ to be accord?  It's not an answer to
>point out that the writings say they must be in accord, for that's not the
>question; almost all religions say they must be in accord with science.  The
>question is: if it seems not to be in accord, _who_has_made_the_mistake_?

There's a bit of pointing at semantics here than subject discussion.  The 
response of science and relegion are in accord and the reality of it may beyond
what most humans can understand.  Each group can say that same thing 
with a different perspective in mind.  The question of whose right is NOT
based upon whether the science OR religion one of which HAS to be wrong if there is a conflict.  Science is not an absolute but an understanding in each one
of our minds about the nature of the real world and although we institutionalizeit by subjective agreement, a pacticular stand on any observation does not have
to be THE STANDARD.  What religion IS in accord with is the workings of the 
real universe.  We as human beings may or may not ever get to the point of
agreeing with everything we see as acceptable to be the WAY of SCIENCE.  The 
answer of what to believe when the concepts put forth by current science and
"revealed knowledge"  (ie Bible, Baha'i Writings, etc.) seems to conterdict
should be the results of investigation of what specifically is being compared
and your own sense of intuitive and rational deliberations.  


>If I am  Baha'i and have been taught that bodies should not be cremated because
>the atoms dissipate too fast to enter the ecosystem, and my scientific
>knowledge tells me that this is not so, what should my will say?

Recheck your facts and unassumingly try to keep a hypothesis that both systems
may be correct.  Unbiased approach, from my observation as a scientifically
trained observer, is rare in science.  Our self interests seem to always get in
the way.  Truth is not always agreeable or intuitively obvious, but it usually
prevails in spite of our opinions.

David B
From: sedisrj01@cc.curtin.edu.au
Newsgroups: soc.religion.bahai
Subject: <None>
Date: 5 Nov 92 05:58:20 GMT
Organization: Curtin University of Technology

In his posting Ken Arromdee writes

> Is it considered a mistake for a Baha'i to believe, in this case, what
> science says instead of what your founder says, when they contradict?
> When one of your teachings conflicts with science, is it your
> teaching, or science, which has made the mistake?

I understand Baha'u'llah's writings to say that religion and science
must be in accord, not that one should dominate the other, to maintain
a balance in society.  It is pictured as the two wings of a bird.  If
one wing is stronger than the other, then flight is impared.

We have a great deal of science to learn and we cannot assume we under-
stand everything in the material realm.  Likewise, religious scripture
contains a great deal to understand.  Perhaps it is our lack of under-
standing of both the complexities of science and scripture that leads
us to 'see' contradictions between them.

Some Baha'is are Baha'is because they simply believe in the founder.
Others require proofs, not only before declaring themselves as Baha'is,
but also throughout their lives.  For me there is more than enough
evidence of the truth of Baha'u'llah as the "Manifistation of God for
This Day".  However them are many seeming anomolies which I regard as
research questions.  Throughout my life as a Baha'i (some 20 years now)
I have resolved many of these questions to my satisfaction.

Thank you for your discussion.

Bob Edis
Perth 
Australia
From: andyrose@netcom.com (San Francisco Fractal Factory)
Subject: Re: Ramallah FMH Appeal
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 18:39:11 GMT

Joel Sax <jsax@igc.apc.org> writes:
> From: Joel Sax <jsax>
> Subject: Ramallah FMH Appeal
> /* Written  8:34 am  Oct 26, 1992 by jsax@igc.apc.org in igc:gen.quaker */
> /* ---------- "Ramallah FMH Appeal" ---------- */
> From: Joel Sax <jsax>
> Subject: Ramallah FMH Appeal

What is gen.quaker?  Can that be mirrored to this group?


> 
> From AMONG FRIENDS (No. 55 - Nov/December 1992):

> Middle East Section of FWCC to complete the work.  A new roof slab
> is urgently needed.  That alone costs $25,000.  Please send
> donations via Postal account No. 32356-55, F.Perna/EMS/Luxembourg
> or in UK pounds cheques to FWCC/London, mentioning
> "FMH-Ramallah".
>

PLEASE,PLEASE,PLEASE,PLEASE,PLEASE,PLEASE
Arrange you wants and needs.

If _you_ are making an appeal for a 'right distribution'
of some resource, please facilitate it.

This means tallying contributions, recording names
(anonymous or otherwise), updating the community as to
progress and following up on the physical needs
of the distribution.

See new thread: Right Sharing of World Resources
to discuss the methods of asking for things and giving things.


 
-- 
Andrew Rose andyrose@netcom.com FAX   end killing
From: Joel Sax <jsax@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
Date: 09 Nov 92 11:06 PST
Subject: Re: BEANITE QUAKERISM
Nf-ID: #R:cdp:1744600017:cdp:1744600025:000:905
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!jsax    Nov  9 11:06:00 1992


From: Joel Sax <jsax>
Subject: BEANITE QUAKERISM

Mike Valenza writes:

/* Written  5:07 pm  Nov  8, 1992 by valenza@bigq.enet.dec.com in igc:soc.religion.q */
/* ---------- "BEANITE QUAKERISM" ---------- */

I believe that the Pacific Yearly Meeting eventually split off into other
yearly meetings. My original home meeting in Colorado Springs, for example, is
part of IMYM, Intermountain Yearly Meeting, and it traces its origins to the
Beanite Quakers.  There may be other Beanite yearly meetings as well in the
West.  These yearly meetings are unaffiliated with any larger body such as FUM
or FGC.

Mike Valenza
/end of quote/

I should add that the reason why these three Yearly Meetings
(Inter-Mountain, Pacific, and North Pacific) chose not to
join either FGC or FUM is a matter of money:  we can't
afford the dues!  Sacramento Monthly Meeting decided to
join FGC and FUM. however.

Joel GAzis-SAx
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
Subject: Re: Quakers and homosexuality
Date: 6 Nov 92 21:22:43 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.BxBCpx.63D
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

josh@cqs.washington.edu (Josh Hayes) writes:

>Our monthly meeting came to the realization that we were bound to
>recognize the ties that bind people together. Clearly, it is not
>required that children be produced, or that they can be - would
>we turn away elderly heterosexual couples because they cannot have
>children? 

A historical point which Friends should consider when discussing marriage.  The
first Quaker marriage was that of George Fox and Margaret Fell Fox.  Margaret
was a widow with grown children.  (The oldest wasn't all that far in age from
George.)  George sent out an epistle making it clear to anyone who'd listen that
George and Margaret had no intention of having children and every intention of
sharing one bed.  This was rather a radical idea in a culture which still was
convinced that the purpose of marriage was procreation.  Go George and Margaret!

It is also relevant to discussion of same-sex marriage to point out that Quaker
marriages were *illegal* for about a century.  We have tradition to back up 
performing marriages which our culture disapproves of.  Of course, I'm biased--
I'm much more likely to marry someone who happens to have the same genitalia as
mine, and I want my vows to begin, "In the presence of the Spirit, and these
Friends assembled here...."


              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
                               Br'anArthur

Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)

******************************************************************************
Newage is hypoallergenic spirituality--
it's for people who are allergic to the word religion.
                                   --Jon Jay Obermark
From: bill@bessel.as.utexas.edu (William H. Jefferys)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
Subject: Re: BIBLIOGRAPHY OF QUAKER READINGS
Date: 7 Nov 92 17:02:50 GMT
Organization: McDonald Observatory, University of Texas @ Austin

In article <DZQSB3ZL@cc.swarthmore.edu> mchijio1@cc.swarthmore.edu (Mary Ellen Chijioke) writes:
#
#Other major Quaker bookstores include:
#Friends General Conference Book Store, 1520-B Race St., Philadelphia, PA 
#19102; phone 215-241-7245; 

They also have an 800 number: 1-800-966-4556. They are open
for business M-F 9AM-5PM Eastern Time. They will take mail
orders and payment can be by credit card or they will bill
you (when I ordered something from them the other day, they
preferred to bill me...I suspect, in typical frugal Quaker
fashion, they'd rather keep the 6% that credit card companies
charge!)

Bill
From: nickh@CS.CMU.EDU (Nick Haines)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
Subject: Re: What is it?
Date: 5 Nov 92 15:13:10 GMT
Article-I.D.: cs.Bx90xz.8nC.1
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon University
Originator: nickh@VOILA.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU

In article <Bx7JGx.G7A@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> shafung@leibniz.uwaterloo.ca (Alan) writes:

   What is it meant to be a quaker?
   What is the origin of it and what do quakers believe in ?
   What do they practise in the meeting ?

Can we have a FAQ? I'd volunteer to run it myself but I'm not a
Friend. It should certainly include answers to the above (which we've
already had several times in the week or so this group has been
running) and also that excellent bibliography that somebody posted.

Nick Haines nickh@cmu.edu
From: valenza@bigq.enet.dec.com (Michael K. Valenza)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
Subject: Re: BIBLIOGRAPHY OF QUAKER READINGS
Date: 9 Nov 92 01:19:09 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


I may have missed it, but I didn't see this book mentioned in Joel Sax's
excellent bibliography, so I thought I would pass this along.  I recently bought
a copy of a 1992 reissue of a book originally published in 1962, called "The
Quaker Reader".  The book is published by Pendle Hill, and contains an
introduction by Jessamyn West, as well as selections from the works of Fox,
Penn, Jones, and others.  It's a rather large book--over 500 pages--but appears
to be a good introduction to Quakerism for anyone who is interested.

Mike Valenza
From: andyrose@netcom.com (San Francisco Fractal Factory)
Subject: Defining quaker
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 02:25:01 GMT

>----- 
But one thing that I found really strange, is that I found myself
trembling quite often when I would speak from the heart during the open
discussions at the Mennonite services.  It's really strange, because
I don't tremble in ordinary conversations, or talking in front of
groups.  Are there any theories about why one trembles, or what the
tingling peaceful sensation with waves of pleasure when one lets go
are?  Has anyone else had these experiences?
 
Glenn                                    glenne@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
>-------

I've noticed the pressing need to speak passes when not
answered (sometimes).  Yep, sometimes you're off the 
hook.  Then there are those times when you just aren't off
the hook.  Perhaps you've _supressed_ a leading to
speak, and you got over it, but it comes right back.
And it keeps coming back until you do something about it.

I can confirm the peaceful sensation but not the tingling
or the waves.  Perhaps I need some sensitivity training.

I can definitely confirm trembling.

anr

-- 
Andrew Rose andyrose@netcom.com FAX   end killing
 
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
From: andyrose@netcom.com (San Francisco Fractal Factory)
Subject: Re: quacker meeting in Ma.
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 18:24:03 GMT

tlindgre@cvbnet.prime.com (Terence Lindgren x5360 5-2) writes:
> 
> 	I live in Littleton Ma. ( rt2 and 495 ); would someone direct me to the 
> 	closest meetings.
> 
> 		thanks,
> 
			terence

I live in San Fran so relatively close to you is Cambridge Mass.
Someone there should be able to help you get closer.  Look
in the phone book under 
Rel. Soc. Friends,
Soc. Friends, Rel.,
Friends, Rel Soc of,
Quakers
or try the Yellow pages under
Spiritual Devices

-- 
Andrew Rose andyrose@netcom.com FAX   end killing
From: julieh@noao.edu (Julie Heynssens)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
Subject: Re: What do they do?
Date: 10 Nov 92 20:12:20 GMT
Followup-To: soc.religion.quaker
Organization: National Optical Astronomy Observatories, Tucson, AZ, USA

In article <1992Nov2.200454.20194@zip.eecs.umich.edu> rjones@dip.eecs.umich.edu (Randolph M. Jones) writes:
>In article <15284@auspex-gw.auspex.com> tpickett@auspex.com (Tom Pickett) writes:
>>In article <BwzvtL.IMu@acsu.buffalo.edu>, v128juxa@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu 
>>(SCHUYJUANNAH) writes:
>>> In regard to Quakers being pacifists, you got it right, but in history,
>>> there were those of Quaker background who *did* participate in the 
>>> military in some way.
>>
>>Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe many Quakers took part in WWII,
>>including my father.


My father also fought in WWII.  He believed that there would be no peace if
the Nazis won the war.  He fought to preserve a chance of peace for himself
and others to follow.

>
>On the other hand, I understand my grandfather was "read out" of his meeting
>for enlisting during WWI.  I also know a couple of Quakers who were
>conscientious objectors during WWII...a very unpopular position at that 
>point in history.

A very unpopular and also dangerous posistion.  Of my father's first cousins 
that were concientous objectors, six out of seven died in the war.  Being a CO 
did not excuse you from service; it only excused you from fighting.  All of my 
cousins that died were sent to the front lines as medics;  they were unarmed.
The survivor volunteered for a medical experiment and was lucky.  These were
all people who refused to fight because it was wrong, but did not refuse to
put their life on the line for their beliefs.  God rest their souls.


Julie Heynssens

*******************************************************************************
Energy is Contagious, Optimism Spreads!  NPeart
Standard Disclaimer:  Please don't attribute my opinions to anyone else.  I 
can get in enough trouble just speaking for myself.
*******************************************************************************
From: nelson@crynwr.com (Russell Nelson)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
Subject: Quakers: What are they? conclusion 
Distribution: world
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 92 04:08:02 GMT
Organization: Crynwr Software

In article <warren.720713561@beloved> warren@pws.ma30.bull.com writes:

   OK, after reading all the followups I have come to this conclusion:

           o The Quaker "church" is not a Christian church

Actually, I'm sure you would be quite at home in a Quaker church. You
might feel lost in a Quaker meeting, however.  Due to American
schisms, the two have drifted fairly far apart.  The English schisms
were not as severe and have since been mended.

                   Although some are Christians (including
                   the founder), there is no sermon in the Meetings,
                   Christ is not taught to be the resurected Son
                   of God who saves people in a personal way.

There is no sermon because God speaks directly to people.

           o The Bible is not the authorative inerrant Word of God.
                   In fact, there aren't any authorative inerrant
                   Scriptures.  There is no statement of faith.

I doubt any claim that anything but God's direct word is inerrant.
And even then we mis-interpret what He has to say to us.  Only
through the wisdom of a gathered meeting can we hope to properly
interpret God's word.

-russ <nelson@crynwr.com> What canst *thou* say?
Crynwr Software           Crynwr Software sells packet driver support.
11 Grant St.              315-268-1925 Voice  |  LPF member - ask me about
Potsdam, NY 13676         315-268-9201 FAX    |  the harm software patents do.
From: Joel Sax <jsax@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
Date: 06 Nov 92 09:44 PST
Subject: Re: FAQ minute
Nf-ID: #R:1992Nov5.192232.16001@netcom.com:-784529565:cdp:1744600019:000:151
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!jsax    Nov  6 09:44:00 1992


I will be happy to dispatch the reading list from time
to time.  Friendly reminders (could we have that
again, Joel?) will be accepted with joy.

Joel

Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: Simple Gifts (was Re: Shakers vs. Quakers)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 20:38:59 GMT
Keywords: Movers Shakers Quakers

swisher@cs.utexas.edu (Janet M. Swisher) writes:

>Sometime when you have folks gathered for hymn-singing, try "Simple
>Gifts" as a round with "The George Fox Song".  The tunes are similar
>but slightly different, and harmonize neatly.  Those of the
>Christ-centered persuasion can throw in "Lord of the Dance", which has
>virtually the same tune as "George Fox".

Hmm, I learned "Lord of the Dance" to the tune of "Simple Gifts".  Also, there
are distinctly pagan versions of "Lord of the Dance"--the chorus and last verse
remain the same, but all the other verses are new.


              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
                               Br'anArthur

Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)

******************************************************************************
Newage is hypoallergenic spirituality--
it's for people who are allergic to the word religion.
                                   --Jon Jay Obermark
From: glenne@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Neuromancer )
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
Subject: Re: What do they do?
Date: 9 Nov 1992 22:37:17 GMT
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.4

aeb@philabs.philips.com (Anne Barschall) writes:
>Quaker is a nickname given to members of the Religious Society of Friends.
>The name relates to the trembling experienced by some members prior to
>rising and speaking in a silent meeting.  The nickname was easier to say
>than the correct name of the group and therefore has stuck
 
Hmmm... now this is strange...  After reading a bit of the Bible,
I became an intensely pacifist Christian.  My beliefs are are a
individualistic approach to pure anarchy, and I am sympathetic
to voluntary non-propertarianism.  My conscience would not allow
me to vote or to serve jury duty.  So I started looking for people
who might share similar beliefs.  I attended a Friend's meeting,
and felt really comfortable with the silence.  I experienced as I
often do the peaceful tingling pleasure wave sensation I normally do
when I let go.  However I did not feel that I fit in well with the
Friends, because of my strong Christian beliefs, and my need for
brutally open and honest discussions of beliefs.
 
So I started attending a progressive Mennonite congregation.  I liked
the fact that the Mennonites are openly Christian, austere, and held
open discussions of beliefs.   However I found that I felt as if the
members of the congregation were trying to lay their expectations on
me, and were not quite as free wheeling as I had hoped.  So rather
than it being a pleasure to attend services, it started to become a
chore.    Right now I am up in the air about what I am going to do.
I may have to simply go it on my own, maybe attending a service
here and there.
 
I found that I was not moved by the spirit to say anything during the
Friend's Meeting, nor did I find myself moved to say anything
during the prayer circle with the Mennonites, rather, I simply felt
very peaceful, and that nothing needed saying.
 
But one thing that I found really strange, is that I found myself
trembling quite often when I would speak from the heart during the open
discussions at the Mennonite services.  It's really strange, because
I don't tremble in ordinary conversations, or talking in front of
groups.  Are there any theories about why one trembles, or what the
tingling peaceful sensation with waves of pleasure when one lets go
are?  Has anyone else had these experiences?
 
Glenn                                    glenne@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
From: warwick@oak.math.ucla.edu (Warwick Daw)
Subject: Re: BEANITE QUAKERISM
Organization: UCLA Mathematics Department
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 92 22:39:16 GMT

In article <1992Nov9.011524.20881@engage.pko.dec.com> valenza@bigq.enet.dec.com (Michael K. Valenza) writes:
>
>I believe that the Pacific Yearly Meeting eventually split off into other
>yearly meetings. My original home meeting in Colorado Springs, for example, is
>part of IMYM, Intermountain Yearly Meeting, and it traces its origins to the
>Beanite Quakers.  There may be other Beanite yearly meetings as well in the
>West.  These yearly meetings are unaffiliated with any larger body such as FUM
>or FGC.

Unfortunately, I missed the earlier postings on this subject. If anyone saved
them, I would like very much to see them. 

I am not entirely familiar with the history of IMYM, but Pacific Yearly
meeting was split into Pacific YM and North Pacific YM some years ago.

Last summer there was a "Western Gathering of Friends," which included most
of the YM's in Western North America. We were unable to attend, but according
to a flyer I have from it, Intermountain YM, Northwest YM, North Pacific YM,
Rocky Mountain YM, Canadian YM, Pacific YM, and Friends Church Southwest YM
were involved. As far as I know, Intermountain, North Pacific, and Pacific
YM's are unprogrammed Beanite Yearly Meetings, while Rocky Mountain,
Northwest, and Friends Church Southwest are programmed Yearly Meetings covering
similar areas.

One thing that I found amusing was that when I went to an interest group on
the Western Gathering at the previous year's Pacific Yearly Meeting, several
people expressed the concern that the more evangelical programmed Friends
would try to "convert" us to their brand of Quakerism. What happened though,
was that few members from the programmed YM's showed up, apparently because
of similar concerns. The lack of communication between the two groups is
remarkable for groups that claim the same heritage. As one example on the
forefront, while many in Pacific Yearly Meeting are pushing for the Yearly
Meeting to recognize same-sex-marriage, and several meetings within PYM
have held such marriages, many in Southwest YM are pushing for laws in
California that would make homosexuality illegal. I don't think either group
really has unity on this issue, but it illustrates the gulf that has
developed.

Warwick Daw (warwick@math.ucla.edu)



Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
From: andyrose@netcom.com (San Francisco Fractal Factory)
Subject: Re: What do they do?
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 17:13:48 GMT

aeb@philabs.philips.com (Anne Barschall) writes:
> In article <MARTINC.92Oct30080112@grover.cs.unc.edu> martinc@grover.cs.unc.edu (Charles R. Martin) writes:
> >
> >Now, I've never heard of anything like that recently... in fact, it
> >seems like shaking and speaking in tongues in a Meeting would be a
> >marvelous way to get Eldered.
> 
> I have certainly seen shaking/quaking.  I have never heard of anyone eldered
> for it.  I have not seen speaking in tongues.
> 

Humming and swaying in Cambridge Mass Summer '87
Dancing (shaking of bones) in Vermont rumored.


-- 
Andrew Rose andyrose@netcom.com FAX   end killing
 
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker