From: mistik@mistik.anatolia.mn.org (Mustafa Soysal)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: About (C) laws here and there.
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 19:47:46 EDT
Organization: N.A.

> Path: news.cis.umn.edu!umn.edu!spool.mu.edu!olivea!uunet!mcsun!uknet!glasgow!dam
> From: dam@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (David Morning)
> Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
> Subject: Re: Spiros Triantafyllopoulos's and David Morning's misconceptions
> Message-ID: <BuD94x.2w8@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk>
> Date: 10 Sep 92 14:19:44 GMT
> References: <18ega1INNgha@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> 
> <18gguhINN62u@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> <5467246@mistik.anatolia.mn.org> 
> <Bu9MF9.185@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> <4475747@mistik.anatolia.mn.org>
> Organization: Glasgow University Computing Science Dept.
> Lines: 52
> 
> mistik@mistik.anatolia.mn.org (Mustafa Soysal) writes:
> 
> >> mistik@mistik.anatolia.mn.org (Mustafa Soysal) writes: 
> >> >have to do with the properness of announcements in this newsgroup? And 
> >> >while you are at remembering, who scanned someone's picture in violation
> >> >of copyright law and put it on ftp? Any relations between you and that 
> group? 
> >> Charming.  Mutlu et al posts the entire contents of libraries to the net
> >> and everyone yells 'fair use'. 
> 
> >We don't agree there.  Mutlu and others use paragraphs of quotes in
> >order to show a point in history.  It might be even considered
> >educational purpose, if not personal.  Those uses are permitted, and you
> >can read it in almost any copy shop around town.  (here, US)
> 
> The quantity of text is restricted under law, you can't just go willy-nilly
> copying big chunks and releasing it in the public domain. The 'educational

There were quite a few messages necessary, judged on the reactions to
the messages.  How big is big although? You certainly can give examples
from here and there amounting to a few paragraphs or a page on a
message.  I don't think he posted more than that in each message.  As
you converse, you might give more quotes on the subject, that is still
fair use, and considering the ignorance level he was hitting, it was
educational as well.  Otherwise it comes to limiting the freedom of
speech based on a quota of how much to speak, which is silly.

Also, text on paper usually takes a lot less space than on screen.  People
were saying Mr Mutlu quoted entire libraries, but nothing quantitative on that.

Do you think if he did anything illegal, that all these Russian, Greek and
Armenian organisations trying to silence him would sit and watch?

> purposes' part relates to use for educational purposes *within* and educational
> establishment. Even 'educational use' has restrictions on the quantity - here

It does not have to be an establishment.  If it is an establishment, it
would be easier for you to prove your educational point.  He certainly
has got an educational point as usenet is not only a news distribution
system (one way), but also is an information exchange between the
readers of it, and it educates on subjects as individuals are able to
bring points accross that was not possible with the monopoly of press
and broadcast media limited to company power only.  Most bbs's in this
country claim for public benefit status as they educate (and not only in
using of computers). 

> in the UK, where the Berne Convention operates, students and copy shops are
> regularly bust each year for photocopying large parts of course text books.
> I seriously doubt if Usenet would be considered an 'educational establishment'.

There is an effort under way to informaly organize a usenet university,
consisting of volunteers to maintain online courses.  Check out the
newsgroup for that. I believe it goes like alt.uu...

The copying done in Europe is sometimes outright illegal, as I have seen
people copying 5 copies of an entire book.

> 
> Simple example:- My wife is a modern languages teacher, teaching French and
> German. She was preparing a course in German for her pupils using single
> sentence extracts from various modern German magazines. She was required,
> despite the fact that it was being used within an educational establishment
> for educational purposes, under International copyright law to seek permission
> (and in some cases pay a fee) to inlude one measly sentence from the magazines.

That is in your location, and I am not aware of anything like that in
the US, although it might be a cheap way to avoid lawsuits, inspite of
being right.  Fee for one sentence or two?  Geez.

I don't doubt the reality of the example you gave, and I am glad there
is the US copyright law that works *for the people*, and being in the US
instead of Britain in that case. 

> 
> You may be right about the picture, but equally it would hold true for text.
> Having said all that, if someone came stomping all over Usenet enforcing
> copyright law, it would virtually end any meaningful debate so, I wouldn't rock
> the boat too much on this issue.

Who knows, one has to see it happening yet.  There was a company putting
everything on usenet on a CD and selling it.  If that does not violate
anything, it is very strange to harrass individuals for quoting
paragraphs from various books.

> 
> >> Someone scans a small picture from a magazine and it's 'violation of 
> copyright
> >> law'
> 
> >What is the purpose of it? Even scanning and not posting it without
> >permission is prohibited, unless it is for personal use or educational
> >matters.  Posting someone's picture to subject him to anonymous terror
> >and harrasment is not 'fair use' as permitted by the laws.
> 
> As far as I'm aware, the individual didn't post it, someone else did. The
> individual deposited it in an ftp site where you had to go and retrieve it.

Excuse me, if I was to copy lotus 1-2-3 sent to me by someone onto my
bbs, and have people have anonymous access to it for copying, what would
that constitute????

I don't know about Britain, but here they come and take you and your bbs
away.  A few people got deposited in NY this year for making calling
card numbers available that way. 

> Equally, you could have popped down to your local library, got hold of a copy
> of the magazine it was in and view it that way, maybe even photocopy it.

Nope.  Recently, according to usenet, playboy or penthouse, I am not
sure which, was suing some bbs operator in the US which had a picture
scanned from the magazine on the bbs.  The people who ran the bbs did
not do it themselves, someone uploaded it, or they claim so.

> 
> As to the motives, I think they were obviously intended to annoy Mutlu.

Annoy??? Harrass is the right word, and it is not allowed to use most
networks for that purpose.

> 
> Dave
> 
> -- 

Looks like the law that applies in Britain is slightly different than in
the US, and the different opinions might be valid in their respective
legal environments.  I certainly would not bet on anything, as this is
an informal conversation regarding opinions of you and me, and a few
examples of facts. 

Take care


--
Mustafa Soysal
===============================================================================
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe