From: muehlhau@en.ecn.purdue.edu (John Muehlhausen)
Subject: Re: Scott G.: Answer this for me...
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 92 01:47:45 GMT

In article <1992Sep04.223254.3350@bnr.ca> ethridge@bnr.ca (Allen Ethridge) writes:
>In article <1992Sep4.203321.28905@en.ecn.purdue.edu> muehlhau@en.ecn.purdue.edu (John Muehlhausen) writes:
>>Scott Goehring writes:
>>>hartigan@ac.dal.ca writes:
>>>
>>>>I know some pretty miserable Christians. 
>>>
>>>I was a lot more miserable as a Christian than I am now as a
>>>non-Christian.  Not all of my improved life outlook is due to that one
>>>change, but it's definitely an important factor.  A lot of the changes
>>>that have helped me feel better about myself are incompatible with the
>>>brand of Christianity (Missouri Synod Lutheranism) I was spoonfed as a
>>>child.
>>
>>Tell me something Scott, how did trusting in Jesus for your salvation and
>>receiving Him as the Lord of your life make you miserable?  You are not
>>allowed to tell me about the people involved... Only about this simple state
>>of mind, which is what makes one a Christian.
>>
>>
>>John M.
>
>If i could express the anger this kind of simplistic and inaccurate statement
>brings to me your terminal would melt.  But i'll answer your question anyway,
>since my experiences are similar to Scott's.

It's been a long time since I've been that angry at anyone...  God can (and
will) take it away if you ask Him to (He did it for me!).  Anyway -- I see
where you are coming from...

>It was the guilt, fear and irrationality necessary to that act or "simple
>state of mind" that caused the misery.  Since it is necessary, before you
>can accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, to admit that you are a sinner and 
>incapable of saving yourself you must first be in a state of guilt and fear.

Agreed.

>And then to maintain this "state of mind" you must deny all rationality and
>accept ridiculous religious dogma like the literal inerrancy of the Bible.

One does not maintain this state of mind!  I am made perfect in Christ!  That
is the freedom of grace!  To be free from sin is the most awesome gift ever
and to serve God in gratitude is the best way to live your life!

There is no denial of rationality involved, and neither does any dogma have
anything to do with what I asked.  I did not attach Biblical inerrancy to the
ticket.  Asking Jesus into your life has nothing to do with anything else
(other than hearing testimony to the awesome fact that He is our mediator).

>The constant doubt that comes into an intelligent, curious mind is forcibly
>transmuted into more fear and guilt.  This causes a lot of misery.

If that were so, I would be miserable.  I do have an intelligent, curious
mind.  There is no way for me to prove that, but my scholatic record and
involvement would reflect that I have _something_ going!

>Now i'll try to educate you.  Christianity is not that "simple state of mind."
>Christianity is what Christians do.  I know there are decent people who
>consider themselves Christians, but having been a Christian for several years
>i also know that there are many Christians who are nothing but fearful guilt-
>ridden mean-spirited hypocrites.  These are the kind of people who use over-
>simplification and misdirection in their arguments, since they dare not let
>the light of reason enter into their minds.  They are also the people of the
>Inquisition and the Salem witch burnings and who would today imprison atheists
>and homosexuals and any others who will not be enslaved by their Christian
>dogma.

So find the former and do not associate with the latter!

>Two of the greatest evils ever fostered on humanity are Communism and
>Christianity, and Fidel Castro was right when he pointed out that these two
>have a lot in common.  I was taught when i was a Christian that a tree could
>be judged by its fruit.  The fruit of the Christian tree is rotten.

The fruit of many self-proclaimed Christians is rotten - the fruit of Jesus
Christ is... (well you know the fruit of the Spirit)  That is how you can
find a good fellowship group!  Look for Christ-like qualities in them!

>-- 
>allen@well.sf.ca.us                Allen B. Ethridge
>ethridge@bnr.ca                    Bell-Northern Research, Inc.
>my opinions are my own             Richardson, Texas

John M.
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,alt.atheism