From: manes@magpie.nycenet.edu (Steve Manes)
Subject: Re: MUD for TBBS?
Organization: Manes and Associates, NYC
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 07:55:38 GMT
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ren_just (rjus@uonline.com) wrote:
: manes@magpie.nycenet.edu (Steve Manes) writes:
: : ren_just (rjus@uonline.com) wrote:
: : : I challenged you on this before, and you came up with a less than truthful
: : : answer.  Can you please tell us exactly how much it costs to configure a
: : : UNIX system with your "cheap" solutions.

: : The cheapest way to go multiuser is with
: : Coherent ($99) and one of the PD source code BBS distributions
: : available at net archive sites.  Bang... a multiuser BBS for less
: : than a hundred bucks.

: As this message gets longer and longer.  Hate to tell you, but UNIX is my
: favorite environment.  I own ESIX as well as Coherent and would love the
: opportunity to install a BBS for a client running on one of these two
: platforms.  I run a modified version of
: XBBS and think it is great.  Lots of power on my system and newsfeeds 
: besides.  But I hate to break the news.  My clients don't know what a newsfeed
: is and could care less.  The systems I design aren't message based.  Sure, 
: messages get exchanged, but this is for customer support. 

What has this got to do with your original challenge regarding the cost
for installing a Unix BBS vs. a multiuser DOS BBS?

: Coherent and UNIX are *NOT* cheap solutions by
: the time you factor in the learning aspect.  I am really tired of the people
: here on the net downplaying this aspect.  The free software is not so free
: as well.  It costs a fair amount of time to compile and tweak these apps
: to run.

Nonsense. I'm also an online services consultant (and a commercial
BBS developer for both DOS and Unix).  One of my support contracts
is for PBS's network of education-related BBSes, Learning Link,
which is in the top three of education-related networks in the
world.  Here's a newsbreak for you: virtually none of the LL sysops
are Unix mavens.  Almost all are simple school teachers who wouldn't
know 'fsck' from CHKDSK.  The level of technical dialogue I have with
most of them is "Okay, Joy, now reboot the computer." "Reboot?  Huh?".
At last November's technical symposium for all LL sysops, I wasn't
even allowed to speak for fear of frightening them.

Any well-implemented Unix BBS software will be essentially
self-installing and self-maintaining.  One of the nicer aspects of
Unix is that because it is multitasking the software can
periodically launch any integrity checkers, packers, purgers that
the author can think of without requiring a moment's attention from
the site's operator.

: Issue #2.  On top of the above paragraph, many offices are familiar with dBASE.
: It is a standard and many packages import/export from it.  Can you please name
: a dBASE environment for Coherent?  It doesn't exist.

I think I'm safe in claiming that there are at least as many qualified
Bourne shell programmers out there as dBASE programmers.  Foxbase, a
dBASE clone (arguably, the preference of dBASE programmers anyway)
certainly is available for Unix.  We run several Foxbase apps on Learning
Link.  In fact, we ship Foxbase to new LL sites (Syracuse WCNY/Channel 38
and Providence, most recently).  The claim is that Coherent will run 386
COFF apps, which means that it should run Foxbase/IX too, although I've
no direct knowledge of this.

: In short, I am really tired of this attitude that we can cram UNIX down 
: someone's throat because we feel it is the hottest environment out there.  I
: could say the same about the Mac vs. DOS wars.  A lot of times it doesn't
: matter what you think the best environment is, it depends on what the client
: has and what will be a feasible solution.  I haven't found a single office
: that has contacted me where UNIX was the best choice (and I am hoping).

I don't believe I "crammed" Unix down anyone's throat, just made the
observation that you have an uninformed negative attitude towards Unix.
I don't care what Unix products you claim to own.  Owning is neither
experience nor knowledge.  I would suggest that if you plan to
function as a consultant in the online service area rather than
just a reseller of TBBS that you make the effort to know what
options are out there for your clients.

I'm a firm believer in the right tool for the right job and Unix clearly
is NOT the universal BBS operating environment.  As I've already said,
Unix is inappropriate in some applications.  I've referred many, many
clients to TBBS and Major BBS and I am, in fact, a registered TBBS owner.
But amongst corporate and institutional clients -- those that don't
have an overwhelming priority to look like and compete with Joey's
Space Quark BBS down the street -- I've found that Unix more
closely integrates with those businesses and the resources
available to them.  As essentially closed universes, multitasking
DOS BBSes tend to be too inflexible for the kinds of apps that my
clients typically want to offer.  No, I don't want to write a
hypertext engine or a real-time weather reporting monitor or
an internet gateway to 'gopher' or WAIS in TDBS.

-- 
Stephen Manes					   manes@magpie.nycenet.edu
Manes and Associates/Commontech-NoHo		   New York, NY, USA  =o&>o