HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 14:34:51 CST
From:         Jesse <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Now ... Just what ARE Polemics?

Dear Liz ;

Sorry about the style problem ... I will pray about it.  I am more concerned
about people's Salvation if they are not Christians, and concerned about their
growth if they are.

I know that I have many areas that I need to improve in and I pray that our
Sovereign and Gracious Lord God will grant me Grace to not only understand
more of His Word, but to implement it the Wisest way in each case.
As Paul states : "All things are lawful, but not all things are EXPEDIENT."
I shall try to meet you guys where I can best be of true service.

However, I am SAD that some on the net seem to have a laissez-faire
attitude ("who cares?", i.e.) toward the Word, or that sound interpretation
of Scripture is avoided by some  (this is where sound hermeneutics come in).
It really wears me out mentally.
*Sigh*


Jesse Irwin Carnes
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Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1992 08:46:31 EST
From:         "SHELBY A. CROSS" <LIBSAC@EMUVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      REPLY-PRAYER REQUEST-MADGE

Dear Madge,

We on Christia, especially the prayer warriors, deem it a privilege to be
able to come together in the body of Christ, laying aside all differences
to accomplish a common goal, to  pray for one another, encourage one ano-
ther, and  to minister the love  of Christ to everyone.  Although we have
had some things  happen recently, we will survive. In  Is. 55:11 (NIV) so
is my Word that  goes out from my mouth; It will not  return to me empty,
but will  accomplish what I  desire and achieve  the purpose for  which I
sent it. Praise the  Lord! - So we can all be assured  that the Word that
goes out over Christia will not ever  return unto God void or empty. This
verse is an  awesome promise and encourages me to  write through the unc-
tion  of the  Holy  Spirit. Without  Christ  we can  do  nothing. I  give
God all  the glory and  honor. It  is the Holy  Spirit who tells  me what
to write. All the  honor and glory is due to Him. I  praise the Lord that
we encourage one another  and love each other so much, as  we do not want
anyone to miss heaven.

I therefore encourage  not only Madge and Steve, but  Christia as a whole
for the author of  this list is Jesus. If we go  forward and write things
that the  Lord has for us  to write, then  we will never offend  any one,
never want to  have our own way or  just our ideas all the  time, we will
never be  rude, etc.  we will  just LOVE ONE  ANOTHER AND  BE ONE  AS THE
FATHER AND  THE SON ARE ONE!  Well I don't  want to preach a  sermon, but
just to  say a  big THANK YOU  to our precious  owners, to  Christia, and
to the Lord.

Dear Heavenly Father,

We praise  You for this day  and will rejoice and  be glad in it.  We ask
that you  use each person  on this list to  fulfill the purpose  that You
have designed it  to be used for.  Give us Your love, joy,  and peace and
let us  always realize that we  should represent You as  a living epistle
to be  read by  everyone in whatever  we say  or do. Let  us be  doers of
Your Word  and not just  hearers only. Let  us all be  a light in  a dark
world and  let Your light shine  through us, so that  people will glorify
Your works.  Let everyone  who will read  this list from  now on  be able
to  tell we  are Christians  by  our Love  for One  Another. Continue  to
bless our  owners and  let them  not get  weary in  well doing.  In Jesus
Name  we  pray. Amen  and  Amen.  (Smile  everyone  - God  Loves  Us!!!!)

Your sister in Christ,

Shelby--
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1992 22:55:16 CST
From:         Lonnie Schubert <S096556@UMRVMA.BITNET>
Subject:      $20 Words

It seems to me that it is counterproductive to a discussion
to utilize words which can be expected to be misunderstood by
the discussion participants.  "Polemic" is a recent and good
example.

If I do not understand a word, I can either ignore it and continue
in my ignorance, or I can look the word up in a dictionary.  If the
speaker (typist) used the word with a non-standard meaning intended,
I am not only still ignorant, I am now deceived.  This condition
is one I do not like.  I certainly would never intend to impose such
a condition on someone with whom I was attempting to discourse.

I would think that the above comment would suffice, but I doubt that
it does.  (Thus, to those who understand it and intend to apply
caution in word usage, feel free to move on to the next post. :-)

The use of non-standard meanings for words, and 'jargon' in particular,
must be strongly discouraged in a group setting where it is
obvious that not all members are privy to the jargon and/or non-
standard usage.  Such a group setting certainly exists on all
listserves that are not exclusive and moderated (such as this one).
Any term used nearly exclusively by any "group" should be avoided
unless you intend to be vague and misunderstood.

Turning again to "polemic":  Jesse asserts that the word is commonly
used in "logic/philosophy/theology" circles to mean "a style of
presenting/organizing an arguement in a point-by-point progression."
I am not at all convinced that this assertion is accurate since there
is no reference to such in any dictionary definition nor could I find
the word in my "Introduction to Logic" textbook.  Nonetheless, allowing
for the moment that the assertion is correct, the dictionary definition
is the only one available to any/all readers of posts.  I expect that,
at most, five individuals who read this post have had a significant
institutional education in any area of philosophy.  It is likely that
many will have had an intoductory course, but my own experience with
"Into to Logic" makes me suspect that it is very unlikely that the
word "polemic" ever came up in class.  Being more general, I assert
that, since few on this list can be expected to be familiar with the
terms of formal logic (or philosophy in general), that these terms,
and particularly jargon associated with it, be avoided.


That's probably not enough either, but I'll wait for questions
and objections before continuing.  In short, let's please
avoid $20 words in discussions.

Lonnie Schubert
From: futtrup@daimi.aau.dk (Erik Futtrup S|rensen)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Proctor & Gamble - update: What happened in Denmark
Keywords: satan, Proctor
Date: 22 Nov 92 08:03:55 GMT
Organization: DAIMI: Computer Science Department, Aarhus University, Denmark

'Lying rumors are traversing Denmark'

This is the headline of a frontpage article about the Proctor & Gamble
flyer I wrote about a couple of weeks ago. It is from a Christian 
weekly paper in Denmark called 'Udfordringen' (The Challenge). 

I asked you netters if any of you had heard if Proctor & Gamble had
anything to do with the Satan Church, and all of the replies I 
received said  that it was not the case, and I should do something about 
it. So I and a friend started to tell the people we know about your 
answers, and soon a writer in the above mentioned paper asked us for a 
printout of your answers (I got 6), and 3 days later the story was
on the front page of the mentioned newspaper - and most Christians in 
the country read this paper, so I am sure the rumors are stopped now.

The rumors were started by one person (from Horsens), who did not
check the story, but wrote a flyer and spread it to all kinds of 
Christian papers, churches etc. Different magazines I heard from
were a bit suspicious and did not want to print the s[4~tory until 
they had had it verified - so they were glad they had not written
the story when they heard from us.

I just thought you would like to know that you have all helped
stopping these rumors - the article also told how I had gotten
the information from people through 'the world spanning Internet',
and they quoted from one of the letters I got from Dr. M.O Scase 
from Cambridge University. 

Again, thanks for your help! 

(on behalf of the Danish Christians)
-- Erik Futtrup

(if you are interested, I could translate the article, and post it)
From: A16905@ITESO.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: I, Jesse made an error on Christia
Date: 18 Nov 92 18:57:02 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

Sincerely, Jesse, I don't remember, but YOU are posting to the list !

Shalom,
Memo.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Sun, 22 Nov 1992 10:32:00 +1000
From:         Ken Diefenbach <DIEFENBAK@TOPAZ.UCQ.EDU.AU>
Subject:      Re: UPDATE:URGENT PRAYER REQUEST

Shelby
    I'm dripping on the keyboard. (and it's not sweat even if ti got to 38
celsius (100 big ones Fahrenheight) yesterday. Lord surround the parents and
extended family in your arms. Can't type any more on that

Love and prayers
Ken D.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1992 08:19:13 CST
From:         Tom Brewer <NOTTMB@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Isa 53:6 and ALL

This is a reply to a question about my understanding of Isaiah 53:6 and the
word ALL.

First, I submit that Isaiah 53 is prophetic of Christ, which I assume you
agree with.

vs. 3 - ALL men are depraved sinners from birth, hence all men naturally
 reject Christ. This is not an example for a "free-will" rejection
 of Christ.

 The overall complaint of the prophet seems to be the lack of faith
 in Israel.

vs  6 - Reveals the heart of sin which is ignoring God and His commands and
 going our own way or doing our own thing. All of us do this. And before we
 are saved we are King of our lives. We reject God as King just as Israel
 rejected God as King in I Samuel. And just as God later provided King David
 for ALL of His people, He provided King Jesus (for ALL of His people) to bare
 ALL of their sins and iniquities.

vs 10 - He shall see his seed = the fruit of Christ's atoning work, those
 saved. Christ will see the seed He died for.

vs 11 - Christ will be satisfied just as He says in the N.T.; NONE that the
 Father has given Him will be lost. Isaiah says Christ will bare the
 sins/iniquities of MANY, the MANY justified by the righteous
 servant, Christ.

vs 12 - Again Isaiah says, "he bare the sin of many," not ALL.

   Now either the ALL in vs 6 refers to ALL of the MANY justified by the
   righteous servant of vs 11 and ALL of the MANY whose sins He bore in
   vs 12, or the ALL refers to ALL men universally; and ALL men must be
   saved because vs 10 says he SHALL see his seed. And vs 11 says he SHALL
   be satisfied.

   Remember, Jesus is the one who says NONE will be lost; NONE must mean
   universally ALL will be saved; otherwise, some of the NONE get lost
   along the way.

   So then,
   Did Christ die for ALL the sins of ALL men universally?
   or
   Did Christ die for SOME of the sins of ALL men universally?
   or
   Did Christ die for SOME of the sins of SOME men?
   or
   Did Christ die for ALL the sins of SOME men?

   The context of Isaiah 53 with the larger context of the N.T. seems to say
   God's righteous servant justified MANY, or in other words, Christ died
   for ALL the sins of SOME/MANY men. NONE therefore will be lost of ALL
   the elect sons of God given to Christ by the Father. The lost ones in
   the world were never part of ALL those who were justified, nor are those
   who are lost part of ALL those who have their sins borne by Christ.

Tom Brewer
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 08:18:36 CST
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Now ... Just what ARE Polemics?
              19 Nov 1992 02:30:51 GMT from <billc@HOUSING.MSSTATE.EDU>

Dear Bill Chapman et al. ;

A question for you :  "Do you consider "polemics" as uncharitable because they
are inherently so, OR because mayby you equate your bad EXPERIENCE with Greg
as the quintessence of polemics?"

Could Greg have been uncharitable HIMSELF, without necessarily proving that
polemics themselves are unfit for Christians?

Bill, let me give you another example of the usefulness of the polemical
approach to writing and speaking :

One of the best books written on the saving work of Christ is by Gary Long.
It is entitled, "Definite Atonement."  It is very polemical and does the
best job of refuting common error concerning Jesus' death that I have ever
seen in less than 100 pages.  Very compact, fast and logical is this volume
by Long.

I might point out that a CLEAR definition might be added to your story about
Bahnsen.  There needs to be a clear idea as to whether Greg is pugnacious,
or aggresive by nature and difficult to reprove to his face, but still a good
polemicist, or is it that "Polemics" themselves are Unchristian by nature.

The other alternative would be that Polemics TEND to lead Christians down a
path toward "Communicational destruction", as it were.  Can this be proven?

Again, let's get a clear definition on this matter.


Jesse Carnes
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 23 Nov 1992 15:28:56 EST
From:         "jones, mark" <JMJONES@UGA.BITNET>
Subject:      blessings

Dear Madge McBurney,
I wanted to share something with you which I feel will be a blessing to
you, given your heart and vision for CHRISTIA, as you have recently expressed:
I contacted privately a colleague on our campus whom I indadverdently found
was subscribed to CHRISTIA. She told me that she was out of fellowship
with the Lord for some time, and that the list has encouraged her and helped
her to grow into fellowship once again. Praise God! I have only been on for
about a week, and already I cant wait to check my mail each morning. Thank
you Madge, God Bless and have a wonderful and blessed holiday....Mark
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1992 19:20:00 -0400
From:         STYLESBG@WATT.CCS.TUNS.CA
Subject:      Re: Jesse a bit miffed 'bout his treatment by some!

very well said,  Steven.

Pastor Bill
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 10:12:55 CST
From:         A16905@ITESO.BITNET
Subject:      Re: KJV Bible on a server to download

Carol,

Sice the NIV is copyrighted, you can not download it, it is available from the
distributors at a small price.

Shalom,
Memo.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 23 Nov 1992 14:56:51 EST
Comments:     Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X
From:         Brenda Curry-White <BSCURR01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject:      Crimes against women (was Prayer Request Update)

Carol Long responds to my tirade about child molestation and abuse by saying,
"We seem happy to run to the protection of littel ones but if it happens to
teenagers or adult females suddenly there is the feeling that it must be
their fault - that is the undercurrent of feeling from the grass roots.  I
am a little ashamed and rather angry about this."

I never meant to imply that it was somehow more acceptable if the victim
was an adult.  I am sickened by any crime where a human being, be it male,
female, child or adult is harmed in any way.  We have no right to hurt
each other.
Brenda
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Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 08:19:32 -0700
From:         MARK DRAKE <DRAKE@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Jesse a bit miffed 'bout his treatment by some!

>Dear Mark ;

> Since you assert that I belittle, at least allegedly, could you offer some
> objective evidence to that effect?


> Jesse Carnes


I quoted you, then said that as far as I was concerned, what you said was
insulting.

The evidence was in the post.

I then said that recent posts by a number of poeple indicate that others
feel that you have been insulting in the past.  Gareth quoted one of your posts
as an example.  You then asked him for evidence too.

I'm sorry Jesse, but to ask for evedence for a posted claim, when that
self-same post contains the evidence, is a little troubling.  I assume you
read it.  The question is, did you understand it?  If not, ask for
clarification.


Mark
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 23 Nov 1992 00:59:52 CST
From:         Lonnie Schubert <S096556@UMRVMA.BITNET>
Subject:      song lyrics

"Never Forget the Cross!"

Old times are hazy, oh, I was crazy
I was more than just a little deranged
When Jesus found me, He did astound me
My heart and mind He has totally changed
I don't remember all the times I lied
Can't recall all the days I failed
Don't remember all the people I hurt
BUT CAN'T FORGET THE HANDS I NAILED!

Never forget the cross!  (repeat a few times)

I'm so discerning, got Bible leaning
I've explored the most profound mysteries
I took a tumbling, I needed humbling
He burst my pride and drove me to my knees
He doesn't count how much I speak in tongues
He's unimpressed by my pious game
He's not fazed by the money I give
But remembers I called on Jesus' name

So, I will never forget the cross!

There's no victory gained without no loss
No resurrection without no cross
No golden crown without no nails
Trade my life for a love that never fails

Never forget the cross!  (repeat)

by Carey Womack and Paul Q-Pek [of]
One Bad Pig, "I Scream Sunday" album

A song of commitment and praise off the same album:

"Wholly My Lord"

O Lord, cause me to pray
O Lord, teach me what it means to obey

Cause me Lord to seek Your face
Know the wonder of Your grace
Lord, I want to truely say

(Chorus)
You are God, You are my God
You are God, You are my God
And You are holy, wholly my Lord
Holy, wholly my Lord

O Lord, cleanse me this day
O Lord, bring me in Your presence to stay

(repeat chorus)

by Daniel Tucek


I'd not like anyone to get the wrong impression
of One Bad Pig, so I'll describe the music.

"Never Forget the Cross" is set in a melodious background
of thrashing guitar licks and is belted out in angel
sweet tones as only Kosher Womack can holler.
"Wholly My Lord" still metal, but is most certainly praise.
It is so easy for me to get caught up in the majesty of
my Lord, and so hard to not forget what I'm doing and just
praise Jesus.  (This can be undesirable when driving. :-)

Specially to JEK:
James, I to praise the Lord to Bach (and Schubert :-) but I
am quite certain that, given a fair shake, you could praise
the Lord to Pig too.

"Once to be called chosen, you had to be a Jew
 but since we've died in Jesus, One Bad Pig's His chosen TOO!"
(One Bad Pig)

Lonnie Schubert
PS  That second verse of "Never Forget..." really speaks to me.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: mktjadx@gsusgi2.gsu.edu (Jeff A. Dilcher)
Subject: Re: Ozzy Osbourne
Organization: Georgia State University
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 05:47:48 GMT

Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET> writes:
>glory to God.   As Christians, we are to judge other Christians in their
>deeds.  THis is scriptural.  1 Cor. 5:12 tell us:  It isn't our job to
>to judge outsiders.  But is certainly is our job to judge and deal strong
>with those who are members of the church, and who are sinning in these
>ways .


I think that you ignore the weight of scriptures that plainly tell us NOT
to judge brothers in the Lord:


 "Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven; (Luke 6:37 RSV)


 If any one hears my sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. (John 12:47 RSV)


3  But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. I do not even judge myself. 4  I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. 5  Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then every man will receive his commendation from God. (1 Corinthians 4 RSV)


 Do not speak evil against one another, brethren. He that speaks evil against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. (James 4:11 RSV)


 Do not grumble, brethren, against one another, that you may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing at the doors. (James 5:9 RSV)



When we judge one another, I believe that we are actually saying that we do not
trust God's sovereighnty.  I have seen many christians with the attitude that
we should "...deal strongly with sinning brothers" go on a witch hunts and 
seriously ruin fellow Christians faith.  

The proper way to deal with a fellow brother, caught in a sin, is this:


 Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Look to yourself, lest you too be tempted. (Galatians 6:1 RSV)

The attitude of many christians who "deal strongly" with a brother who is 
struggling with sin, is more akin to the wrath of the stone throwers against
the adultress than "restoring in a spirit of gentleness" as Paul exhorts us.

I don't condone the deeds of Ozzy, but I realize that I am in no postion to
"throw stones" at him.  I would not God to judge me in a similar manner.
Thank goodness he does not, or I would be in hell without hope....


Jeff


-- 
 
  Jeffrey A. Dilcher                                   Atlanta, GA, USA
mktjadx@gsusgi2.gsu.edu                             Telephone 404-266-1585
      NSS #25914                                       II Peter 1:10,11
 



Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 23 Nov 1992 14:12:11 CST
From:         A16905@ITESO.BITNET
Subject: Re: Feast of Christ the King (22 Nov)

Actually, in spanish the feast is titled "Jesus Christ King of the Universe"

Shalom,
Memo.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 17 Nov 1992 08:54:00 EST
From:         "Joseph_I.Scully" <21010JIS@MSU.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Gays in the military

>
> >Tell this to Alexander the Great or Lawrence of Arabia, two prominent
> >and successful military figures
>
> Don't forget the Spartans, with their "armies of lovers". Or was it the
> Spartans? _Sounds_ like the Spartans. :-)
>
Not this Spartan, bucko!

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