From: adams@spss.com (Steve Adams)
Subject: Re: Homosexuality and Christianity
Date:  9 Apr 92 13:01:47 GMT
Organization: SPSS Inc.

muehlhau@en.ecn.purdue.edu (John Muehlhausen) writes:

>In article <1992Apr8.221210.20447@apollo.hp.com> smith_w@apollo.hp.com (Walter Smith) writes:
>>Not a problem...I take it you also view hetrosexual anal sex
>>as bad?  How about oral sex, a man fingering a woman to orgasm,
>>a woman giving a man a "hand job", a woman using a vibrator,
>>or a man using one on a woman?  For that matter, how about
>>sex between 2 women?

>Yes, yes, yes, yes.... Bad in that they are indulgent in nature and fleshly
>in origin.  I equate all these things with getting wasted.

Enjoying sex or having non penile-vaginal sex is the same as getting
wasted?  Sorry, I don't buy that for a minute.  I'd like to see Biblical
support for this.  In fact, I think the following contradicts what you've
said. (Ignoring the homosexual issue for the moment, since you just
basically condemned non-procreative sex)

[I Corinithians 7, NIV]

   "(Paul writes...)(3)The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his
    wife, and likewise the wife to her husband.  (4)The wife's body does
    not belong to her alone but also to her husband.  In the same way, the
    husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife.
    (5)Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time,
    so that you may devoce yourselves to prayer.  Then come together again
    so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control."

The study notes in the NIV say as follows:

 "(3)Married couples should have normal sexual relations.  Permanant
     abstinance deprives the other partner of his or her natural right
     and may be conducive to temptation."

 "(4)Both the husband and wife have conjugal rights and exclusive
     possession of the other in this area."

 "(5)The Christian deprived of normal sexual activity with his or her
     marriage partner may be tempted by Satan to sexual immorality.  The 
     normal God-given sexual drive in the human being is strong."

Since the Bible doesn't define 'normal sexual relations' I'd like to know
how you determine what is normal and what is not.  Note well that Paul says
sex should be regular.  Obviously not just for procreation, but for
emotional fulfillment.

>Heterosexual sex was designed by God as a gift to man which would strengthen
>the spiritual bond between man and wife as well as provide for reproduction.
Again, ignoring homosexual relations for a moment, this is true.  But
nowher does it say that it should only be for procreation, which you seem
to imply.  Again, the form that sex takes between a man and wife does not
seem to be important, so long as it strengthens the spiritual and emotional
bond.

>As with any gift, Satan seeks to pervert it so that it may become a "god" for
>the lost and a stumbling block for the saved.  Most good things that God has
>put in our lives can be warped and twisted - usually by overindulgence.
But Paul warned above about UNDERINDULGENCE.  It would appear from Paul's
writings that while he might recomend celibacy, he counsels regular,
mutually satisfactory sex between married couples to PREVENT Satan from
drawing one into an immoral sexual relationship (ie adultery).

>Because God did not intend homosexual behavior (or deviant heterosexual
>behavior) I hold that gay persons do not receive the spiritual
>bond-strengthening through sex that a man and a woman do in marriage.
Define 'deviant' using the Bible.  Again, I'm referring only to consensual
sex between a man and wife.

>Rather
>the experience is one which satisfies only the fleshly nature of man when we
>should be focusing on the Spirit.
Since our sex-drive is God-given, and God wants us to join with women and
"become one flesh", how can enjoying sex be said to be bad?  By having
a health sexual relationship, one can strengthen emotional and spiritual
bonds that will IMPROVE our relationship with our spouses and God.

>The union between man and woman is blessed
>and has spiritual fortitude while the union between two men is a perversion
>of this inspired by you know who...  Thus the sex act between two people of
>the same sex does not fulfill the purposes of God (obvious or spiritual) and
>should not be practiced by the Christian _for his/her own good_.
You must have a direct line to God.  I do not know the purpose or purposes
of sex, except that it is ONE way to procreate.  Speaking of that, what do
you think of artificial means of procreation used by infertile couples?

>This is no
>more damning than any other sin, and was payed for by Christ's death, but the
>homosexual Christian is usually not intent on overcoming this fleshly nature,
>but rather on justifying it.  This is dangerous in that it may decrease their
>effectiveness for Christ, cause them psychological duress, lead others
>astray, etc.  This is why it is worth focusing on more than, say, eating the
>wrong types of meat (OT Law).
There are no grades of sin (expcet for blasphemy against the Spirit, ie
denying God's saving grace), and as such all sins are equal.  In the end,
it is not for me to judge another person's sins.  (cf Matthew 7)  I have
enough of my own to worry about.  God will judge.

Remember, Jesus message was one of love for neighbor AND enemy.  He spent
lots of time with sinners and outcasts.  He was condemned for this by the
local Jewish authorities.  No matter what you do, it is not your right to
condemn those who do not do as you think right.  You can witness, but not
judge.

>All of this assumes that the homosexual has no choice in the matter which I
>am NOT convinced of by any stretch of the imagination. (If you respond to
>this also respond to the above please out of courtesy.)  IF this is correct,
>than these people are called to be as Paul was - single without the burden of
>the world and able to focus on the Spirit.
Do heterosexuals have a choice of being "heterosexual"?  I didn't one day
decide to be heterosexual.  I just am.  Of course, I'm mostly right-handed,
but only because the nuns in the Catholic School wouldn't let me write left
handed.

>Hope I am not mis-representing God on this -- may I suggest that anyone who
>is concerned about his issue pray about it and see what the bible has to say
>to them....

I used to take your position.  Then I read the Gospels and prayed.  I spoke
with my Pastor and others.  Mostly, the Gospels are about love and
sacrifice.  God so loved us that he gave his only begotten son.  Jesus only
asks that we love God and each other unconditonally.  Paul does the same in
I Corinthians 13.

 -Steve
--
 The opinions expressed above are those of the author and not SPSS, Inc.
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     adams@spss.com                           Phone: (312) 329-3522
     Steve Adams                              Fax:   (312) 329-3558
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