From: gordons@coopsol.com (Gordon Storga)
Newsgroups: alt.abortion.inequity
Subject: Re: What needs to happen to discuss these issues productively.
Date: 9 Apr 92 23:12:50 GMT
Article-I.D.: coopsol.1992Apr9.231250.4517
Organization: Stay Awake Software

Gosh, is this a private conversation, or can anyone join in?  Mind you,
these are serious observations even though they may appear flippant.

<72473@netnews.upenn.edu> kwelch@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Kevin Welch) said:
>Knapp
>>Kevin Welch, Here are some of the things that (I think at least) need to b
>>ironed out before we can go on.
>
>>-What exactly about abortion is "wrong". Is it "immoral","unethical"?
>
>It is the purposeless termination of human life.  

Oops.  Now we have to define "purposeless".  What might be "purposeless"
to you may well be very "purposeful" to me, and vice-versa.  I see
religious prayer as "purposeless", does that mean I can outlaw it?

>                                                  It denies human beings
>basic rights.  

And why do you think that ALL human beings deserve basic rights?  What
about conflicting human rights?  You know, like *womans's* rights.

>               It allows society to disrespect the value of life.  

Society already disrespects human life.  Perhaps you didn't see the
newscasts of people cheering our side in the Gulf War?  I don't see where
abortion (something done behind the closed doors of a doctors office)
effects society more than, say, a Rambo movie, or the reading of the
bible (one of the bloodiest books).

>                                                                   To
>use Kate Michelman's (prez of NARAL) logic, who said that the removal of
>abortion rights will lead to the removal of contraceptives, to censorship,
>to a point where the government becomes Nazi Germany, the continuance
>of abortion will lead to the acceptance of active euthanasia to the
>accpetance of murder to total anarchy in the world.

I don't agree with the extreme view of the above person from NARAL,
although I do think that contraceptive removal will be next if abortion is
outlawed.  We have it on good authority that abortion is just the foot in
the door.  However, your claim about abortion is less convincing -
abortion has been around in some form for countless centuries and it
hasn't caused the acceptance of murder yet.  Do you accept murder just
because abortion is legal?  I know I don't?  Does anyone on this net
accept murder because abortion is legal?  Please speak up now.

>>-Where do the ethical or moral standards come from to decide the above?
>
>Morals come from society.  What does a people think of a general ideal?

Given that the abortion turnout always favors the pro-choice crowd in a
huge way I would think that you would see that abortion _is_ moral - using
your own logic.

>Ethics come from reflection on the limitations and rights of humanity.
>Can humans play God?  Can humans do this or that?  Are they permitted
>to do this to others?  What are the natural and philosophical limitations
>of man?  Those types of goals.  Ethics are set by philosophers and confirmed
>by law givers.

And the average person is expected to live by this, huh?  Dictated
Ethics.  Morality Imposed By Law.  Unless philosophers are in the numerical 
majority what right do they have to determine global ethics in a democracy?

>>-What property of the fetus, if abortion is murder, makes it thus? Because
>> it is "human", a "human being", a "person", has "potential" to be one of these?
>
>Well, it's genetic tie to the human race affords it human rights.

Like a liver cell?

>                                                                   Because
>I believe it to be a Constitutional person, not a phil. person, any
>violation of its rights in the Const., especially life, makes abortion
>murder.  

But abortion is legal, therefore not murder.  I'm glad to see you finally
labelling your own opinions as such too.

>         Because it is "human", "a human", a "human being in the genetic sense"
>and has all the potential in the world to be a "person".

And the pregnant woman is *already* a person, but anti-abortion
legislation reduces her to less a person in the legal sense.  Why is this
alright?

>>-What are the poperties of the fetus that justify its being termed one of the
>> above? Fingers, rational thought, language, myelination, potential etc.
>
>Human likeness in form and movement.  

Do you realize that at 8 weeks (the normal or average time of an abortion)
the fetus still has a tail, it's head is half the size of it's entire
body, it's eyes are sealed shut (like a kitten's), and it has no
functioning lungs.  "Human likeness"?  How many humans do you know who
come anywhere near matching this description?  And just about everyone I
know has far more movement and range of motion than a fetus.

>                                      DNA structure.

Like a liver cell.

>                                                      Unified innerworkings.

I don't know what this means.

>Resemblence to the human species.  Life.  Potential.

At the 8 week stage a human fetus resembles just about any other primate
fetus.  And chimp DNA closely resembles the human species (99% DNA
match).  Are these worth protection too?  They meet your criteria.

>>I put many words in quotes because they may need defining or  discussing int
>>themselves. These are some of the terms that have been used here previously.
>
>I use the terms that John Bates and I have agreed on.

Great, do the rest of us get a 'say so'?

...

While your post appears rational on the surface, your statements appear to
fail close examination.  You also fail to mention once the "other" human
involved in abortion.  You know, the woman.  What about her resemblence to
the human species?  And her DNA, and her potential?  Why the blind worship
of the fetus at the cost of a realized person?


Gordon
-- 

The opinions expressed are my own, and not the beliefs or opinions
of whatever company you think I work for.  So there, thhhbbbt!
Message to Kodak:  Freedom for Dan Bredy.
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