From: ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Someting ailsa brought up (was Re: Who cares) 
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 12:31:09 EST
Organization: Ailanthus Project

cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:

> In article <4gHBoB6w164w@ailanth.UUCP> ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T
> 
> [among other things]
> 
> > . . . but there is definite privelege attached to being butch.  
> >peopl pay more attention to me when i speak than the do to femmes, and i 
> >get taken a lot more seriously, for instance.
> > 
> >                                       -ailsa
> >
> 
> This is something I've always wondered about in the context of
> homosexual relationships, and please excuse me if I say something stupid
> as I have as little experience with it as most straights.
> 
> How come a large part of homosexual relationships do the butch/femme
> thing?  It seems a shame that this paradigm, with so much potential for
> mining new gems from romantic love, has to adhere to the same
> dominant/submissive paradigm that has characterized hetero relationships
> since this shit all started.  I don't want to offend anyone, but I'm
> just curious.  I can understand why it might be difficult to get away
> from it -- like I said about group marriage, there're no role models for
> anything other then dom/sub relationships -- but many people are totally
> happy in butch/femme stuff (I suppose.  Again, I know nearly zip about
> the whole thang.). 
> 
they don't, actually.  butch is a role i embrace, beacuse it is in my 
case just a word that defines who i was anyway.  i was butch before i 
ever HEARD the word butch.  but roleplaying such as this, where everyone 
is supposed to take on one or the other went out with the women's 
movement.  there are still butch/femme relationships, but they are very 
much in the minority these days, although some of us liek to joke about 
"who's the butch" in practically every relationship.  but calling onself 
butch or femme doesn't really describe one's preferences in a mate.  i 
lik butch wimmin, or at least ballsy NOTAs (None Of The Above).  in would 
be willing to bet that you enjoy butch privelege too.

> Is it just because dom/sub is the only well-known paradigm for romantic
> love?  Is it because there might be an inherent structure to romantic
> love (I hope this one is wrong, but I have to suggest it at least)?
> 
butch/femme is not about dominance and submission.  it's about styles.  
i'm butch beacuse i AM, not because i want to dominate someone in a 
relationship.  i actually don't like people very much if i can 
steamroller them, bcause it requires me to spend most of my time and 
effort trying not to do so, to softpedal myself so as not to make others 
uncomfortable.  i've spent rather a lot of my life veering between 
wondering "what's wrong with me?" and "what's wrong with them?"  i liek 
people who realize that my being interested in somethign, like for 
example, going out to see _A League of Their Own_ (seen it yet?  best 
movie i've ever seen in my life!), is not an attempt to domineer someone 
else into doing somethign, but just enthusiasm about something.

but that's off-topic, actually.  i could go on to say that in my family, 
i am considered the shy & retiring one, but that isn't really the topic 
here...  a woman identifies as femme because dressing that way, etc, 
makes her happy, expresses who she is.  doesn't make her submissive.  there
are butch bottoms and femme tops, and egalitarian relationships between 
butch and femme wimmin, and also relationships that look like a wimmin's 
theatre vcersion of leave it to beaver.  i couldn't do that myself, but 
what3ever makes them happy...

but like i said, butch/femme is pretty rare these days.  i don't have to 
call myself butch of course, but it is a good thumbnail sketch of what 
i'm like anyway, so i use it.  when i was talking about "butch privelege" 
i was talking about the heterosexual academic community, or various and 
sundry board meeting type things, not the gay community per se.

> Just a-wonderin' . . . 
> 
just attemptin' an answer...  B)

> Blessings,
> Janis
                                            -ailsa

p.s. i am talking only about the lesbian community here.  i have NO idea 
what nelly and butch mean in the gay community, and wouldn't even TRY to 
answer that.  or what it means to be a drag queen.  i imagine it is 
something like being a drag butch, somethign that the person dpoes 
because it expresses a necessary part of themselves.

p.p.s. if you are really interested i n the subject, i highly recommend 
_a restricted country_ by joan nestle.  it shouldn't be too hard to find. 
 i got it out from the school library.

ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com   or   io81409@maine.maine.edu
 
are you on fire         what will replace the rent with the stars above,
from the years,         replace the need with love,
what will you give      replace the anger with the tide,
for your kid fears?     replace the ones, the ones, the ones that you love?
Newsgroups: alt.pagan