HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cottle@cmp-rt.music.uiuc.edu (David M. Cottle)
Subject: Re: Women/Black composers - thinking out loud
Organization: University of Illinois School of Music
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 01:47:43 GMT

In article <1992Sep12.103121.42927@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> miner@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes:
>I and a musician friend have often remarked on how few women composers
>there seem to be.  Are they indeed few?  If so, why; and if not, who
>are some of the better-known women composers?
>

There are more women composing art music than is readily 
apparent (Towers, Oliveros, Anderson come to mind).  There 
is an anthology dedicated to women composers in our bookstore 
and it is used for several classes; if you want more info I 
could get the biblio.  

As for previous periods, there are a number of examples of 
women who published under their husband's name because it 
was not respectable for women to compose (or, in many cases,
perform).  

This brings up an equally interesting observation: there are 
practically no black (afro-american? pick your favorite 
current PC terminology) art composers.  There are precious 
few black art music performers.  Have you ever seen a black 
violinist in an orchestra?  This really puzzles me.  I've 
always maintained that music is a very unforgiving phenomenon 
which cannot be legislated, regulated, and which transcends 
political, social, and ethnic contexts.  If your good, it 
doesn't matter who or what you are.  Likewise, if you can't 
play, political correctness (i.e. token ethnic representation) 
goes out the window and you go out the door.

Is western art music simply a bastian of white male supremacy?  

Another thought: have you ever seen an all white choir of 
yuppy wanna-be's singing negro spirituals complete with pig 
english?  Isn't that incredibly racist?  Why don't we have 
picket lines protesting it?  These days people are so easily 
offended (I'm offended by the term Native American; it implies 
that I'm not an American and that the people who were here 
when the Europeans arrived inherited the land by Divine Decree, 
not by overruning the existing inhabitants, but I digress . . . ) 
why aren't they offended by obtuse musical mimickery?

More thoughts: Why is it that black performing groups 
(disclaimer: we have a black chorus here at UIUC.  Their concerts 
are easily the most exciting and best attended events on the 
calendar) are offended when white groups try to do their music 
in a western european style, but won't think twice about 
adapting a Bach choral to a spiritual style?

Sign me puzzled.


Dave Cottle
School of Music
University of Illinois at Urbana Champaign

d-cottle@uiuc.edu

Newsgroups: rec.music.compose
From: fields@zip.eecs.umich.edu (Matit-iahu (Dr. Fields again))
Subject: Re: Women/Black composers - thinking out loud
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 13:14:36 GMT

In article <BuLJnK.JJz@news.cso.uiuc.edu> cottle@cmp-rt.music.uiuc.edu (David M. Cottle) writes:
>This brings up an equally interesting observation: there are 
>practically no black (afro-american? pick your favorite 
>current PC terminology) art composers.  There are precious 
>few black art music performers.  Have you ever seen a black 

1) Opera seems to be a big place for black performers these days.
2) Ollie Wilson is one of my all-time favorite composers.




Newsgroups: rec.music.compose
From: josh@Tekelec.gecko.uucp (Josh Barinstein)
Subject: Bach's Cello Suite
Originator: josh@reliant
Organization: Tekelec Inc
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1992 00:14:53 GMT


Nathan writes:

> I'm having some trouble (as a beginner) in sussing the implicit
> harmony of a bar in the Prelude to Bach's Cello Suite #1.  The key
> signature is one sharp, so it's in the key of Em or G.  It begins on a
> G, and the first couple of bars are broken G C and D? chords, so I'm
> picking it's in the key of G.
> 
> All well and good.  I get the harmony of the first few bars to be:
>       G / C / D7 / G / Em / A7 / D / Em / 
> and then I get stuck.  The next bar's notes are:
> 
>       E, C#, D E; D, C#, B, A; G, F#, E, D; C#, B, A, G
> (all equal duration).
>
> My question is: what is/are the underlying chord(s) of this bar?


The D7 you have identified does indeed lead to the conclusion that the
piece starts off in G major (the D7 being the dominant in the key).  A
few chords later, Bach modulates to D major (again, supported by the
appearance of its dominant chord, or A7).  Keep in mind that Em is com-
mon to both G and D major allowing for a smooth connection between keys.

From that point on it looks as though he stays in D major.  Judging from
the notes you listed:

E/C#/D/E => most likely the chord here is A (V in D)
D/C#/B/A => A again
G/F#/E/D => D major chord (I in D, of course)
C#/B/A/G => most likely G (would be my guess)

To avoid any possible flames:  I have only recently begun my music stu-
dies.  If this analysis is in error, I'd be interested in knowing where
I went wrong.

Hope this helped...

-----
Josh Barinstein - josh@Tekelec.com

Newsgroups: rec.music.compose
From: sechrest@z.eecs.umich.edu (Stuart Sechrest)
Subject: Re: Women/Black composers - thinking out loud
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1992 03:23:55 GMT

In article <BuLJnK.JJz@news.cso.uiuc.edu> cottle@cmp-rt.music.uiuc.edu (David M. Cottle) writes:
>This brings up an equally interesting observation: there are 
>practically no black (afro-american? pick your favorite 
>current PC terminology) art composers.  There are precious 
>few black art music performers.  Have you ever seen a black 
>violinist in an orchestra?  This really puzzles me.  I've 
>always maintained that music is a very unforgiving phenomenon 
>which cannot be legislated, regulated, and which transcends 
>political, social, and ethnic contexts.  If your good, it 
>doesn't matter who or what you are.  Likewise, if you can't 
>play, political correctness (i.e. token ethnic representation) 
>goes out the window and you go out the door.

I am not sure if it is really a good idea to add to this thread, but last night
I was reading Gunther Schuler's "Early Jazz," and noticed the interview with
George Morrison that appears as an Appendix.  The interview is basically the
man's life story.

Morrison was black, born in 1891.  His father was a fiddler.  He moved to Boulder,
Colorado as a 12-year-old, and began playing the violin at dances in mining camps.
He recieved violin training from a violinist in Boulder and proved quite talented.
His career, however, was always limited because he was black.  He studied with the 
conductor of the Denver Symphony, who said that if Morrison had been white he would have
made him concertmaster, but as it was, he played in popular bands in hotels.
He never quite made it to fame and fortune, despite great talent for both classical
and jazz music.

It is an interesting interview to keep some perspective on notions that black jazz
musicians were all naifs who just played by ear, or that it ``doesn't matter who or 
what you are,'' because music ``transcends political, social, and ethnic contexts.''

I am also finding the rest of the book, which is mostly musical analysis, rather than
anecdotes, very interesting.

--Stuart Sechrest
Newsgroups: rec.music.compose
Subject: Implicit Harmony
From: gnat@kauri.vuw.ac.nz (Nathan Torkington)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 05:58:15 GMT
Distribution: rec
Organization: Contract to CSC, Victoria Uni, Wellington, New Zealand

I'm having some trouble (as a beginner) in sussing the implicit
harmony of a bar in the Prelude to Bach's Cello Suite #1.  The key
signature is one sharp, so it's in the key of Em or G.  It begins on a
G, and the first couple of bars are broken G C and D? chords, so I'm
picking it's in the key of G.

All well and good.  I get the harmony of the first few bars to be:
	G / C / D7 / G / Em / A7 / D / Em / 
and then I get stuck.  The next bar's notes are:

	E, C#, D E; D, C#, B, A; G, F#, E, D; C#, B, A, G
(all equal duration).

My question is: what is/are the underlying chord(s) of this bar?

Any responses appreciated;

Nat

Newsgroups: rec.music.compose
From: fields@zip.eecs.umich.edu (Matit-iahu (Dr. Fields again))
Subject: Re: Women/Black composers - thinking out loud
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 20:32:52 GMT

In article <1992Sep15.201411.16060@cs.ucla.edu> gds@cs.ucla.edu (Greg Skinner) writes:
>>Have you ever seen a black violinist in an orchestra?
>
>Yes, quite often, actually.  Granted, I have not seen an orchestra
>with a majority of black musicians, but there are cultural reasons for
>this (more on this later).

odd, I certainly have.  there's even a group out there somewhere called
the Black Symphony Orchestra.  (and it is a symphony orchestra in the
standard sense, unlike the Reggae Symphony Orchestra, which is a small
chamber group that plays reggae).
From: klinger@nyx.cs.du.edu (Ken Linger)
Subject: Looking for: Willy Wonka Soundtrack
Reply-To: Linger@starsys.laf.in.us (Ken Linger)
Organization: Star Systems
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 92 00:13:19 GMT

A friend of mine is looking for the soundtrack for Willy Wonka's
Chocolate Factory (Charlie and the Chocolate Factory) which is a
movie from 1971 and was re-released in 1986.  Is anyone selling
this on CD or tape?  Does anyone know where I may be able to find
this new or used?

Thanks,

Ken Linger
Linger@starsys.laf.in.us
From: alves@calvin.usc.edu (William Alves)
Newsgroups: rec.music.compose
Subject: Re: Women/Black composers - thinking out loud
Date: 15 Sep 1992 15:41:25 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: calvin.usc.edu

I agree that, while many counterexamples can be named, modern art music
remains a mostly white male bastion. Of course this is largely because of
historical (and contemporary) discrimination in these fields, but I share
the original poster's puzzlement. Why does it seem that there are propor-
tionally so many fewer women composers than painters, writers, poets, 
choreographers, and so on? Haven't the institutions associated with these
arts had the same historical discrimination? Why are there proportionally
far more women performers than composers (at least in the United States)?

As far as racial minorities, a group here in LA did a survey of new music
audiences a few years ago. One of the main findings was that, in a city
that is one of the most ethnically diverse in the world, over 90% of the
attendees of new music events were white. The conventional explanation
and the one adopted by the LA Cultural Affairs office was that new art
music reflects a white European tradition and is out of touch with the
cultural diversity of the city. While it is true that it may be perceived
that way, this stereotyping still makes me bristle.

I think that a much more important factor is the appalling lack of arts
education in this country. Racial minorities, usually discriminated against
in the educational system already and not typically having the money or
other resources to seek out arts education on their own (taking music
lessons for example), grow up with only the shallowest appreciation of
art far more commonly than whites. This extends to far more than just
new art music. I have been to performances of traditional African music,
for example, where the same overwhelming majority of the audience was white.

Bill Alves
Newsgroups: rec.music.compose
From: fields@zip.eecs.umich.edu (Matt Fields)
Subject: Re: gratuitous axe grinding vs the score
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 18:34:01 GMT

In article <1992Sep14.162139.1025@HQ.Ileaf.COM> rthor@HQ.Ileaf.COM (Arthor Weinstein x4443) writes:
>this. i'm merely using Sir Matthew's comment as an excuse to berate
                        ^^^ ^^^^^^^^^
This business of mine of periodically putting up a new account name
is getting out of hand.  I think I'll do it more often.

>that i have (in the past) been reluctant to refer to the score as
>music. i am curious as to my own motives.

Mine are for the same reason I wouldn't call even an excellent
screenplay TV: the audience is largely illiterate (and we are, too.
really.  consider the difference between a george crumb score and a
tom robbins novel).

> i have heard tell of scores
>written (by Webern i believe; corrections welcome) that were not meant
>to be performed except perhaps in the mind of the reader.

uh, Charles Ives did this in places in Concord Sonate...I never heard
of Webern doing anything impractical, but I'm a bit out of touch with
hard-core Webernology.

>i advocate the widest possible definition possible, perhaps stopping
>just short of rendering the word syntactically meaningless. 

I really like this koan:          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^.
but I'm tired (had a good weekend) and likely to act grouchy at
whoopsies like that.
From: fields@zip.eecs.umich.edu (Matit-iahu (Dr. Fields again))
Newsgroups: rec.music.compose
Subject: Re: Implicit Harmony
Date: 15 Sep 92 13:35:20 GMT
Distribution: rec
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor

In article <GNAT.92Sep15175815@kauri.kauri.vuw.ac.nz> gnat@kauri.vuw.ac.nz (Nathan Torkington) writes:
>I'm having some trouble (as a beginner) in sussing the implicit
>harmony of a bar in the Prelude to Bach's Cello Suite #1.  The key

You're in luck.  I used to study cello.  I don't have the score in front
of me, but I don't need it.
G major
bars 1-4. ^1 pedal under I-IV-V-I, 1 chord per bar.
5. vi 6 ==ii6 of V
5-7. V [ii6, V 65, I]
8. vi ==ii of V
9. V 43 of V
10. V
8-10. V[ii, V43, I]
11. The most interesting measure so far: vii 42 of ii
12. ii 6
13. vii o of vi
14. vi
15. V 65 of V of IV
16. Begin another ^1 pedal. V 7 of IV
17. IV
18. V7 (root implicit in voice leading)
19. I. end pedal.
20. V 65 of V
21. V 42
22. V42, V7

Have I done enough work?  the large scale plan from here is towards V,
then to V of V of V, then pedal for umpty ump measures on V of V
(open a string pedal), then finally a couple bars of V, then one last
time through the cadence.
Newsgroups: rec.music.compose
From: rthor@HQ.Ileaf.COM (Arthor Weinstein x4443)
Subject: gratuitous axe grinding vs the score
Reply-To: rthor@HQ.Ileaf.COM (Arthor Weinstein x4443)
Organization: Interleaf, Inc.
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 92 16:21:39 GMT


fields@zip.eecs.umich.edu (Sir Matthew of the Fields)
responded to rpeck@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (robert william peck)
thusly

> Finally: does having one or another notion of what is or isn't music really
> help you get some music made?

to which i say hear hear! 

i can only imagine (or have seen) one reason for denying the label
"music" to whatever someone calls music; to exclude. esp in the case
where the label is denied to what one finds displeasing (as in "that's
just noise, not music"). it seems a disingenuous way to buttress one's
opinions. it's not enough to say, i dislike such and such, or perhaps
it's too difficult (since it begs the question why). i also find that
this tactic is typically used in cases where the person claiming "this
is not music" clearly wishes to avoid experiencing the music in
question, or has no idea how to.

this is a particularly pathetic and abhorrent tactic. it seeks to
whittle away hard earned tolerance for diversity. what is valuable and
worthy of attention is subjective. attacks (implicitly or explicately)
on grounds of legitimacy stink of bogus political agendas. whether the
culprit is aware of these agendas is moot.

let me make clear that i am not accusing robert william peck of any of
this. i'm merely using Sir Matthew's comment as an excuse to berate
some alleged criminals with some of my fav agenda's (subversion,
status quo debunking, categorical thinking, etc.)

i understood peck to be musing about the line between score
(instructions) and music (sound event). his gist seemed more logistical
(the rules for contests etc) than proscriptive. still, interesting in
that i have (in the past) been reluctant to refer to the score as
music. i am curious as to my own motives. i have heard tell of scores
written (by Webern i believe; corrections welcome) that were not meant
to be performed except perhaps in the mind of the reader. (perhaps
that's the escape clause). i wouldn't want to deny the music label
here. and i wouldn't want to be close minded about considering
non-sound artifacts as "music" since this could imply novel and
interesting ways of perception.

i advocate the widest possible definition possible, perhaps stopping
just short of rendering the word syntactically meaningless. 




Newsgroups: rec.music.compose
From: gds@oahu.cs.ucla.edu (Greg Skinner)
Subject: Re: Women/Black composers - thinking out loud
Originator: gds@oahu.cs.ucla.edu
Reply-To: gds@cs.ucla.edu (Greg Skinner)
Organization: in your face!
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 92 20:14:11 GMT

In article <BuLJnK.JJz@news.cso.uiuc.edu> cottle@cmp-rt.music.uiuc.edu (David M. Cottle) writes:
>This brings up an equally interesting observation: there are 
>practically no black (afro-american? pick your favorite 
>current PC terminology) art composers.  There are precious 
>few black art music performers.

Define "art".

>Have you ever seen a black violinist in an orchestra?

Yes, quite often, actually.  Granted, I have not seen an orchestra
with a majority of black musicians, but there are cultural reasons for
this (more on this later).

>This really puzzles me.  I've always maintained that music is a very
>unforgiving phenomenon which cannot be legislated, regulated, and
>which transcends political, social, and ethnic contexts.  If your
>good, it doesn't matter who or what you are.  Likewise, if you can't
>play, political correctness (i.e. token ethnic representation) 
>goes out the window and you go out the door.

Welcome to the real world.  The actual "business" of music (as opposed
to its study) is *extremely* legislated, regulated, and political.
You can be the best musician around, and never get recognized, if you
don't fit the image the people who control that part of the "business"
want.

>Another thought: have you ever seen an all white choir of 
>yuppy wanna-be's singing negro spirituals complete with pig 
>english?  Isn't that incredibly racist?  Why don't we have 
>picket lines protesting it? [...]

I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

>More thoughts: Why is it that black performing groups 
>(disclaimer: we have a black chorus here at UIUC.  Their concerts 
>are easily the most exciting and best attended events on the 
>calendar) are offended when white groups try to do their music 
>in a western european style, but won't think twice about 
>adapting a Bach choral to a spiritual style?

I don't know.  Why don't you go ask them?

My impression of why blacks generally do not become involved in
orchestral music is because it is not a part of black culture.  Blacks
were not given as much exposure to orchestral music during slavery
times as whites.  However, our involvement in jazz, blues, and
gospel was not discouraged, and in some cases, encouraged.  Thus,
those traditions were handed down to blacks of today.

The standards for orchestral music are also much different than for
gospel, jazz, etc.  In order to be an orchestral musician, one must
generally go through a long process of recognized formal education,
the type that was systematically denied to blacks until the
mid-1960's.  Generally speaking, you can become, say, a gospel singer,
if you have a very good voice and musical ear, even though you've had
no recognized formal training.

--gregbo
Newsgroups: rec.music.reviews
From: vidarh@stud.cs.uit.no (Vidar Hanssen)
Subject: Pankow's Walpurgisnacht
Organization: University of Tromsoe, Norway
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 09:39:38 GMT
Followup-To: rec.music.misc


PANKOW's Walpurgisnacht CD-single (1991 Contempo TEMPODISC 166)
The hunt for this release has taken over a year, but when I finally got it, it
was well worth the time. Walpurgisnacht is a 16 minute piece written for a
performance by Florence Dance Theatre in july 1990. It starts off with a
groovy and repetive rhythm, with sparse synth themes and vocals. After about 8
minutes it suddenly turns into classical music with choir. After a minute or
so, some strange industrial sounds starts, whitch finally developes into the
opening theme again. Epic and groovy, a must for all Pankow fans.

-- 
     __  __
     \ \/ /          ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////
      \  /          // Vidar Hanssen  University Of Tromsoe, Norway ///////
       \/          // Email: vidarh@stud.cs.uit.no  Phone: +47 83 44032 //
control, I'm here ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Newsgroups: rec.music.reviews
From: vidarh@stud.cs.uit.no (Vidar Hanssen)
Subject: Meat Beat Manifesto: Edge Of No Control
Organization: University of Tromsoe, Norway
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 09:40:29 GMT
Followup-To: rec.music.misc


MEAT BEAT MANIFESTO: Edge Of No Control  CD-single (PIAS BIAS222CD)
"What is your one purpose in life? To explode of course!" Meat Beat Manifesto
is back at last! This time it's Jack on his own, and the music is more back to
basics. Edge Of No Control is based on a hip-hop-ish rhythm with a
dub-reggae-bass and lots of repetive industrial sounds. Orbital has mixed it
to a frenetic and psychotic techno tune with a desperate female singer
screaming some of the lyrics. Consolidated mixes it back to the industrial
rhythms, with lots of new noise added. The EP rounds off with The Circular
Cosmic Spot with more dub-reggae, bass heavy hip-hop rhythms. 

A sidenote: the US Mute/Electra CD EP has two extra tracks.

Another sidenote: The Shamen's horrible Ebeneezer Goode single is worth
getting for one thing: the "MBM Instrumental" version. 6 minutes of hard and
repetive Jack Dangers rhythms. The only thing left from the original is the
BPM...

-- 
     __  __
     \ \/ /          ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////
      \  /          // Vidar Hanssen  University Of Tromsoe, Norway ///////
       \/          // Email: vidarh@stud.cs.uit.no  Phone: +47 83 44032 //
control, I'm here ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Newsgroups: rec.music.reviews,rec.music.misc
Newsgroups: rec.music.gaffa
Subject: (no subject given!)

At the risk of fanning the flames even further, I'd like to have something
clarified. Intergalactic Garage sells copies of a videotape that Kate Bush's
brother has specifically asked not be circulated. Vickie sends out tapes
of music by female artists which presumably are covered by copyright,
royalty agreements for reproductions, etc. Why is one OK and the other not?
 (disclaimer: I am not trying to take sides in this debate, having never
bought from either IG or C-Side. I would just like some clarification of
the issues involved here.)
x-gateway: rodan.UU.NET from love-hounds to rec.music.gaffa; Mon, 14 Sep 1992 16:29:20 EDT
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 16:26:06 -0400
From: kjetilho@ifi.uio.no (Kjetil Torgrim Homme)
Errors-To: Love-Hounds-request@uunet.uu.net
Subject: Private Services
Message-ID: <KJETILHO.92Sep14030724@dyggve.ifi.uio.no>
Organization: Dept. of Informatics, University of Oslo, Norway
X-Charset: ASCII
X-Char-Esc: 29
Newsgroups: rec.music.gaffa


I saw "Personal Services" a couple of weeks ago, and I found myself
thinking, wow, Julie Waters does look a bit like Kate Bush. Even so, I
was taken by surprise when she appeared in a scene later on with the
exact same type of "wizard's hat", white with a large D, as Kate wears
in the video for "Sat in your lap". "Personal Services" is a film by
Terry Jones about a prostitute mama offering services for the
kinky/perverse. It's a comedy, but not of the roll-around-on-the-floor
variety.  Recommended.

(Sat in your lap is (C) 1981, Personal Services is (C) 1986)


Kjetil T.

--
	``so you can make me cum that doesn't make you Jesus'' - Tori Amos
x-gateway: rodan.UU.NET from love-hounds to rec.music.gaffa; Fri, 11 Sep 1992 00:40:35 EDT
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 00:38:13 -0400
Subject: ELTON JOHN Candle In The Wind/Rocket Man quotes
From: rhill@netrun.cts.com (ronald hill)
Errors-To: Love-Hounds-request@uunet.uu.net
Comments: Cloudbuster
Message-ID: <m1XwqB1w165w@netrun.cts.com>