From: SECBH@cunyvm.bitnet
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: re: The problem of pain - query
Date: 18 Aug 92 06:17:19 GMT
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center

In article <Aug.17.02.12.08.1992.11350@athos.rutgers.edu>,
ptfarre@afterlife.ncsc.mil (Peter Farrell) writes:

I think it would be too difficult to excerpt Mr. Farrell's article
and be sure of giving an appropriate condensation.  If anyone is
interested I would suggest they re-read his posting.

I would like to make a fairly brief response to some of the points
he raised.

There is surely something on the order of absolute poverty - being
subsistence level food and shelter.  At this level of existence I
do not feel that it is important how the person arrived at this
point as far as hearing the call of giving is concened.

Above this level poverty probably becomes quickly and increasingly
relative to individual societies.  Perhaps, the solution to the
problems Mr. Farrell sees in this as far as the U.S. goes is to
change the means of giving and loving, not to withhold it.  Perhaps
tinkling coins into the hand of a questionably needy person in NY
or Washington should be replaced by volunteer time at a social
service agency or re-training program.

As to being gulled "con artist" beggars goes - this occurs everywhere,
and is not a speciality just in the United States.  In Sao Paolo you
find gangs of children living on the street, some of whom will beg
from you while their companions pick your pockets.  In India crafty
beggars run actual begging "schools" where they train their students
in the techniques of begging and how to exaggerate or fake disabilities.
Some beggars organize territories and charge fees of other beggars.

Craftiness, ingenuity and venality are endemic to the human race.  It
is not that the noble poor live elsewhere and we are cursed the
charlatans.

It seems to me that this thread is not so much about the "problem
of pain" (which is its subject title) as it is about the "problem
of giving."   Clearly there is a disagreement between Mr. Farrell
and myself about this.  It would be my contention that any examination
of giving has to begin with oneself (though it strikes me than our
own attitude about receiving probably can't be ignored.)

I would be very interested in the comments that focus on the "problem"
of giving from a Christian point of view, rather than an attempt
to begin by estimating the worthiness of the recipient.
t strikes me that the cart has been put before the horese in this
interchange.

>What say ye, Jack?  Have you personally been in the fight like that?
>Have you literally emptied your pockets or bought one of them food?

Yes.  I have been on both sides of this predicament.

>.....................and I just emptied
>every Shilling I had on my person into his empty hands.
>The poor man was
>so stunned, he actually looked up at me as his quavering voice stammered
>thank you. I felt like a million bucks that night.
            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I would say that from my viewpoint that this statement points to
an essential snare which can corrupt giving and turn it into judgment.
But what is the Christian basis for giving and the attitude about
giving?

Jack Carroll