From: kml@cellar.org (Lazlo Hoover Toth)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: lighten up, people
Keywords: faith
Date: 29 Jul 92 13:30:53 GMT
Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system

tpe36878@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Mr. Mensa ) writes:

> Hello to all:
> 
> 	Well, tonight was the first time I have ever read this newsgroup, and I
> have a few things to say:
> 

Thanks for feeling free to jump right in and "straighten us out".  I share
much of your background, but disagree entirely with your conclusions...
Nonetheless, I would not try to beat you over the head with them upon
arriving at your doorstep.

> 	1) the idea of God is not illogical. I am a scientist (an astronomer),
> 	and I believe in God. I believe that He (or whatever pc pronoun you
> 	see fit to insert) created the Universe. BUT: I also believe 100% in
> 	the natural laws that control the Universe (ie Big Bang, Worm Holes,
> 	Black Holes, etc.) I am VERY interested in correspondance with someone
> 	who has a differing opinion on this.
> 

Define "illogical".  Define "logical".  I think it makes sense for people
to believe in SOMEthing.  Hence, the fact that people have a belief can
be logical.  Some of their beliefs, however, are illogical.  And do
you use Clarence Thomas' definition of "natural laws"?  I think that 
the system works by its own rules.

> 	2) to believe in a God does not imply religiosity. Believing in a
> 	higher being does not mean that one is necessarily a relious person.
> 	For that matter, it does not even imply--if the person is religious--
> 	that he (I don't believe in pc, sorry) is a `religious freak'.
> 

What do you think religion is?  I certainly think that belief in a God is
a religious act.  It is a leap of faith.  Certainly all religious folks
are not religious freaks.  There are zealots about everything - check out
the creationists in talk.origins who have all the answers without even
hearing the questions.

> 	3) God is not a person! I am Catholic (err, no comments please) and I
> 	do not believe that God is a person, per se. He (see above note) does
> 	not have a physical existence. He is a spirit of Love. One will
> 	never 'see God' in a physical sense, because that is simply not how
> 	He exists.
> 	
God is not a person.  True enough.  He does not exist.  Even truer.
"He is a spirit of love".  Well, then.  So if people love each other,
it os through God.  How does that explain your black holes?  Your depiction
of God is a copout.  Either He is the ruler of the universe, or He is nothing
more than a label given to the idea that we ought to love each other 
(see CS Lewis' sense of "ought").  As a former Catholic myself, I can see
why you have strayed from the strictures of that religion.  However,
you have ventured into quite a black hole yourself.

> 	4) the Bible (to me, at least) is not a literal work. Come on, people..
> 	who really believes that the Universe was created in SIX DAYS?!?! BUT:
> 	whereas it is not literal, it is not fiction, either. This may seem
> 	confusing, but I had it explained to me very well by the little-known
> 	author James Connor. The stories in the Bible are there to teach us
> 	how to live our lives.
> 	

Chances are you take some part of the Bible literally, or you wouldn't have
written #3 above.  The stories are there to teach us.  Even the stories
of Jesus make this point.  The stories of his appearance after resurrection
make this clear.  he doesn't say "Tell everybody I rose", he tells them
to go spread the word that he spread - that the religion as it was practiced
was wrong, and should be replaced by loving each other with our whole lives.
As for taking it literally, please see the posts of Henley and Ted and 
Lionel in t.o.  

Do you take Connor literally?

> 	5) finally, LIGHTEN UP PEOPLE!!!! Geez. I mean, as if. People, people
> 	people.....there is one and only one way to prove the existence of
> 	God......
> 

Lemme see if I got this straight.  You hop into a.a., probably come upon a
flame war, and tell us All to lighten up.  How magnanimous of you.

I'm curious as to how a scientist plans to prove the existence of a god.
I maintain that there is no such way.  Nor is there a way to prove that
anything in Genesis happened.  But that's beside the point.  If God is a 
spirit of love, then He exists, because we know that people love each
other (Aren't circular arguments convenient!).  Even if no one loved
anyone else, you could still maintain that the spirit was still out there!
Where's the proof?  If something is not scientifically falsifiable,
it ain't science, and it sure isn't proof.

Love ya.
KML.
> 
> 
> 

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Newsgroups: alt.atheism