From: CBARNES@tamvm1.tamu.edu (Chris Barnes)
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Subject: Re: Obedience v. Breed
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 13:48:07 CST
Organization: Texas A&M University
NNTP-Posting-Host: tamvm1.tamu.edu

In article <1992Dec18.164521.17561@cas.org>
   sla54@cas.org (Sandra Augustine) writes:
 
>>In an ideal world, conformation is as equally important to a breed
>>as obediance (and hunting ability if applicable).  But we don't live
>>in the ideal world, we live in the real world.  And in the real world,
>>the show ring has flat ruined many working breeds.  Goldens are a
>>good example, but irish setters are even better.  With the setters,
>>many, MANY people don't even consider the hunting lines and the show
>>lines to be the same breed anymore.
>
>Chris, would you please explain why you think Golden Retrievers have
>been ruined?
 
 
I have been to many, many hunting tests and/or field trials (at least
for my age).  I have been in a club that puts on the events (note the
sig. at the end of this message), I run my own dog in hunting tests,
and I have judged all 3 levels of hunting tests.  Therefore, I feel
qualified to make the following judgement:
 
AS A BREED, golden retrievers are not as accomplished as labs or
chessies (the other 2 main breeds that participate).
They are far more likely to be incapable of receiving a
qualifying score at all proficiency levels.  Let me put it this way,
it is a very rare Lab that *can't* obtain it's JH title.  It is much
less rare for a Golden that *can't*  (can't in this context means that
it doesn't matter how many tries the handler takes, it simply will
never pass 4 junior hunting tests).
 
Not coincidentally, as a percentage they are also far more likely to have
a conformation background.  And I don't believe it's all that strange
that most people are readily able to tell the difference between goldens
with a hunting test/field trial background from those with a show
background - they physically look different.
 
Is it any wonder that I have this opinion when the following scenario
occurred last month:
 
(phone rings)
Me:  Hello.
Guy at the other end of the line:  Yes.  I was calling about some Lab
     puppies you have for sale.  Can you tell me something about them?
Me:  Sure.  What do you want to know?
Guy: Well, I'm not quite sure.  I do some hunting, but don't know much
     about dogs.  Are they good hunting dogs?
Me:  (i tell him about their pedigree, my dog's abilities, and the
    sire's abilities).
Guy: Ok.  Well my girlfriend runs goldens in dog shows, so I'll probably
     have her give you a call and find somemore information.
Me:  That'll be fine.
 
 
(i feel somewhat unsure about this guy buying a pup, but I'm not
excluding him just yet....)
 
(phone rings)
Me:   Hello.
Girl: Yes, my boyfriend called about some lab puppies.  Could I ask you
      some questions about them?
Me:   Sure, what would you like to know?
 
Lots of questions about conformation background, coat color, eye color,
size, etc.  All that is fine, as those are reasonable questions.  Not a
single question about hunting titles, parent's hunting ability, etc.
This is *not* fine.
 
Girl: We would like the lightest color female you have.  We'll put a
      check in the mail tomorrow.
Me:   Well, I don't think that's necessary.  I think you probably ought
      to look elsewhere for your dogs  (I'm trying to be polite here).
      I would rather have them go to a home where they would be used for
      hunting and run in hunting tests.
Girl: (somewhat upset) You mean you won't sell one to me?
Me:   I'm afraid not.
 
 
Do you see the problem she has?  It's not that she was a golden person.
It's that she was a show person.  She didn't give a squat about the
purpose of the breed.  And that is typical of show people.  And that's
why I don't like the conformation ring.
 
Opps, I'm on a tangent.  Sorry.
 
It's not that I dislike goldens.  In fact, when I'm judging and a golden
does a good job, I tend to give REALLY good scores, perhaps better than
I would had a Lab done the same work.  The reason for that is obvious
(at least to me):  it's rare to find a golden that still does really
good field work.  If your's do, then you deserve and have earned my
highest praise because you have picked a breed where you have to fight
against a tidal wave of mediocre (at best) hunting ability and your
work is harder than mine.
 
      -----------------------------------------------------
Chris Barnes            |   President - Bryan/College Station
cbarnes@tamvm1.tamu.edu |         Retriever Club.
(409) 846-3273 (home)   |   "Dedicated to the betterment of
(409) 845-4437 (work)   |               the retrieving breeds"
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs