HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Steve.Hayes@f22.n7101.z5.fidonet.org
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Charles Williams
Date: 11 Jan 93 09:20:28 GMT

On <09 Jan 1993 11:43> John W. Woolley said to All :

 JWW>REXLEX writes:
 JWW>> I like Charles Williams, the lesser known one of the 
 JWW>Inklings.  His
 JWW>> spiritual/thriller books either grab you or repulse you.  He 
 JWW>was a RC, as was
 JWW>> Tolkien, but seemed to have better developed theological 
 JWW>positions.  Williams
 JWW>> postition on prayer is much like the postions on puratory 
 JWW>mentioned by others
 JWW>> on SRC.  He seems to hold some kind of active/personal 
 JWW>intersession by the
 JWW>> individual in one's advocacy of prayer much like the 
 JWW>classical RC
 JWW>> interpretation on the sale of indulgences for those in 
 JWW>puratory.
 JWW>
 JWW>A correction.  Charles Williams (like Lewis) was Anglican; 
 JWW>Tolkien was
 JWW>Roman Catholic.  You're right that Williams believes that 
 JWW>"bearing one
 JWW>another's burdens" is to be taken far more literally than we 
 JWW>usually do.
 JWW>(You know us Catholics -- sticklers for literal 
 JWW>interpretation.)  There's
 JWW>an interesting passage in which Lewis discusses Williams' 
 JWW>doctrine of
 JWW>substitution, and ends up saying "I have reason to believe he 
 JWW>was right."
 JWW>I also.

I'm sorry to have missed the beginning of this thread (our feed was cut off 
for 10 days), and as an Inkling fan I am very interested in it. 

Charles Williams was much more overtly "religious" in his writings than 
either Lewis or Tolkien, and so many of his comments seem more directly 
theological. Yet he also seems to introduce deliberate distortions - his 
order of the celestial hierarchy in "The place of the lion" differs from that 
of pseudo-Dionysius, and his order of the tarot in "The greater trumps" 
differs from the actual order in the tarot cards. I wonder if he was afraid 
that people might use his writings for occult purposes, and "copy protected" 
them, as it were.

Steve Hayes
P O Box 7648, Pretoria
0001 South Africa

[Williams wrote several different kinds of book.  "Descent of the
Dove" is church history -- from a rather unusual viewpoint -- and of
course his Arthurian poetry is also well known.  These things are
straight Christian.  My impression of the novels you are talking about
is that they are sort of the spiritual equivalent of science fiction.
Just as "science fiction" novels often look at the implications of
changed laws of nature, Williams books look at the implications of
various sets of spiritual laws.  In each one he takes a classic
religious point of view and says "what would it be like if this were
*really* true."  The ones I remember are based on the grail legend,
Islam, Kabbalah, an African tribal religion, neo-Platonism, and
Christianity.  --clh]
From: dsegard@nyx.cs.du.edu (Daniel Segard)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Seder/Passover meal/Maundy Thursday suggestions
Date: 8 Jan 93 05:46:15 GMT
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.


  holly@csn.org (Dawn E. Bergacker) writes:
 > My church (Presbyterian USA) is thinking of holding a Seder for
 > Maundy Thursday service.  I'm on the worship committee, and I'm
 > looking for hints on how to present a fun and meaningful Passover
 > meal.  Does anyone have any experiences to share?

      Since you are posting from Colorado SuperNet I am presuming that you
are probably local to Denver.  If so, feel free to contact Burt Yellin at
Congregation Roeh Israel, I am sure he would be glad to give you advice.

 > The Seder I attended years ago ended with lamb stew.  Does anyone
 > have a large recipe for lamb stew? Thanks!

     Actually since the destruction of the Temple, it has been traditional
*not* to serve lamb, other than the shank bone on the Seder plate.

 > [There has been controversy here in the past as to whether it is
 > a good idea for Christians to have seders.  You might want to
 > consider how you would feel about a non-Christian group holding a
 > communion service...  I think there are reasonable arguments for
 > it as well. But if you are, and are going to call it a Seder, I
 > would suggest that you consult with some Jewish friends, and try
 > to make sure that you follow Jewish procedures.  Otherwise, I'd
 > suggest that you simply indicate that you're trying to come
 > somewhat closer to the way Jesus would have celebrated the Last
 > Supper, but avoid actually saying you are going to have a seder.
 > --clh]

          Though "seder" only means "order" as in the "order of service",
so I wouldn't say that the term itself is a real problem.  Indeed, Paul
commanded that Passover should be observed by all Believers:

      1 Corinthians   5
       7. Purge out the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump,
      according as ye are unleavened. For also our Passover, Messiah,
      has been sacrificed;
       8  so that let us celebrate the Feast, not with old leaven, nor
      with leaven of malice and wickedness, but with unleavened [bread]
      of sincerity and truth.
From: psburns@lims02.lerc.nasa.gov (MAUREEN BURNS)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Wesley Allen "Hang Me" Dodd
Date: 6 Jan 93 06:58:20 GMT
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center

In article <Jan.5.03.44.49.1993.1320@geneva.rutgers.edu>, rainbow@qiclab.scn.rain.com (Donita Thompson) writes...
> 
>What really blew me away this morning during his interview was
>when he said that "because I have found Jesus, I get to go to
>heaven." WHAT??!!!

>[I'm sure all of us will be in for some surprises.  One may doubt the
>reality of some claimed conversions -- whether they are based on a
>real Christian repentance.  But I hope you are not suggesting that
>child molestation is unforgiveable.  --clh]


I am not trying to discern whether his statement about Jesus is genuine, 
but on Sunday's news, they were running a story about how he didn't want 
anyone to stand in the way of his execution.  He said that if he got a stay 
of execution, he would try to escape, killing guards as he went, only to 
get out on the street and go back to what he had been doing, that is, 
killing kids.  Now I know that Jesus can change a heart in a heartbeat, but 
on Sunday, this man certainly didn't sound too repentant.  Did he get saved 
in the next few days?  

Maureen
From: fc12@vaxb.acs.unt.edu
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Death Penalty
Date: 11 Jan 93 08:44:13 GMT
Organization: University of North Texas

In article <Jan.8.00.48.25.1993.2514@farside.rutgers.edu>, mjsmith@cac.washington.edu (Martha Smith ) writes:

> I thought the commandment was a rather straight forward "Thou shall
> not kill".  I remember nothing in the new covenant telling me I can
> kill ... it seems to say a great deal about love and forgiveness
> however.
> 
>> However, death is the required consequence for murder.
> 
> Can you explain this last statement "death is the required consequence
> for murder"?  Do you mean all murderers must be executed or else???

You may be confusing covenant with commandment. The new covenant is indeed
Grace rather than the Law. Hence, the requirements for covenant relationship
such as the food laws and sacrifice are not required. Commandments ae still in
place. Few people dispute the current application of the "Ten Commandments".
However, there are other commandments, predating the "Ten Commandments" that
are oftenby man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man".
This would seem to be a relative direct commandment for the exicution of any
person who murders any of his fellow men. 

Bill Floyd
From: cdp@helios.tcad.ee.ufl.edu (Chetan Parikh)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re:Death penalty
Date: 11 Jan 93 08:43:24 GMT
Organization: VLSI TCAD Group, University of Florida

I apologize for the length of this quote, but it seems so utterly
appropriate.

	"There are two sorts of retributory punishments. One is vengeance, 
the other, chastisement. Man has not the right to take vengeance, 
but the community has the right to punish the criminal; and 
this punishment is intended to warn and to prevent so that no other 
person will dare to commit a like crime. This punishment is for the 
protection of man's rights, but it is not vengeance; vengeance 
appeases the anger of the heart by opposing one evil with another. 
This is not allowable, for man has not the right to take vengeance. 
But if criminals were entirely forgiven, the order of the world 
would be upset. So punishment is one of the essential necessities of 
the safety of the communities, but he who is oppressed by a transgressor...
should forgive and pardon, for this is worthy of the world 
of man.
	...But the most essential thing is that the people must be 
educated in such a way that no crimes will be committed; for it is 
possible to educate the masses so effectively that they will avoid 
and shrink from perpetrating crimes, so that the crime itself will 
appear to them as the greatest chastisement, the utmost condemnation 
and torment...
	The constitution of the communities depends on justice, not 
upon forgiveness. Then what Christ meant by forgiveness and pardon 
is not that, when nations attack you, burn your homes, plunder 
your goods, assault your wives, children and relatives, and violate 
your honor, you should be submissive in the presence of these 
tyrannical foes and allow them to perform all their cruelties and 
oppressions. No, the words of Christ refer to the conduct of two 
individuals toward each other; if one person assaults another, the 
inured one should forgive him. But the communities must protect 
the rights of man.
	One thing remains to be said: it is that the communities are 
day and night occupied in making penal laws, and in preparing and 
organizing instruments and means of punishment. They build prisons, 
arrange places of exile and banishment, and different kinds of 
hardships and tortures, and think by these means to discipline criminals, 
whereas, in reality, they are causing destruction of morals and 
perversion of characters.The community, on the contrary, ought day 
and night to strive and endeavor with the utmost zeal and effort to 
accomplish the education of men, to cause them day by day to 
progress and to increase in science and knowledge, to acquire virtues, 
to gain good morals and to avoid vices, so that crimes may not 
occur."

                                                      -- Abdu'l-Baha
From: lise@kepler.cc.bellcore.com (romanov,elizabeth)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Seder/Passover meal/Maundy Thursday suggestions
Date: 8 Jan 93 05:45:26 GMT
Organization: Bellcore, Piscataway, NJ

I'm bothered by the idea that a seder for Christians should be "fun and
meaningful"--a Jewish seder is both a serious thing and a highly structured
liturgical event.  An actual Jewish seder consists of a ceremonial meal
where everything that is eaten and all of the dialog that goes with it
are traditional and symbolic.  (Dinner comes after that, and sometimes 
isn't served until 11pm or something).  Anyhow, this is very serious stuff,
both in terms of ritual and content--it's not just a fun potluck with
party games.  That's not what contemporary Jews are doing, nor what the Lord
was doing at the Last Supper.

If you are interested in what goes into a seder, you can 
look in the library for background.  There are strictly traditional and
more contemporary versions available--because for Jewish people the seder 
commemorates both their defining experience as a people and a liberation 
from oppression, some contemporary versions are highly political.
The text that contains all the elements of a seder is called a Haggadah.
I'd suggest you look at one, so you'll know what you're playing with.

Regards, 
Lise
From: dabbott@augean.eleceng.adelaide.edu.au (Derek Abbott)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: "Living in Sin"
Date: 12 Jan 93 09:12:06 GMT
Organization: Electrical and Electronic Eng., University of Adelaide

Does anyone have any pro or con comments to make about the
book "Living in Sin" by Bishop John Shelby Spong??
From: news@cs.ruu.nl (Six O'Clock News)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Hal Lindsay's Writings on Prophesy
Date: 12 Jan 93 08:49:26 GMT
Reply-To: piet@cs.ruu.nl (Piet van Oostrum)
Organization: Dept of Computer Science, Utrecht University, The Netherlands

>>>>> jkk@aiai.ed.ac.uk (John Kingston) (JK) writes:

JK> There are generally four viewpoints held by Christians about what will
JK> happen at the 2nd coming:

JK> 1) Pre-millenialism - all Christians will be taken up to heaven before the
JK> "thousand years of tribulation" predicted in the book of Revelation.

You are confusing the millenium, which is a period of peace of 1000 years
with the saints ruling as kings with Christ and the tribulation period,
which is described as lasting 7 years. 

People differ in interpretation whether the 1000 and 7 should be taken
literally, (or even the whole concept).

There is also a pre- and post- (and even mid-) tribulation interpretation and
there are pre- and post-millenium theories (this applies to Christ's return
before or after the millenium)
-- 
Piet van Oostrum <piet@cs.ruu.nl>
From: stevenst@iaserv.b1.ingr.com (Todd Stevens)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Info on John the Apostle
Date: 5 Jan 93 08:41:08 GMT
Organization: ingr

I am currently trying to research John the Apostle.  Specifically, I am 
interested in his later years up until his death.  I have read
that he probably lived in Ephesus after being exiled to Patmos.  But what 
were the details?  What did he do there?  Did he have a family?  How did he 
die?  When did he die?  Is there any good reference material on the "Acts 
of John", or at least, some interesting traditions?

Thanks,

Todd Stevens
stevenst@iaserv.b1.ingr.com
From: mjsmith@cac.washington.edu (Martha Smith )
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Wesley Allen "Hang Me" Dodd
Date: 12 Jan 93 10:10:09 GMT
Organization: UW Computing

Roberta C. Bondi
To Love as God Loves 1977
To Pray and to Love 1991
Fortress Press

Both excellent introductions to desert fathers for today
From: rainbow@qiclab.scn.rain.com (Donita Thompson)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Wesley Allen "Hang Me" Dodd
Date: 5 Jan 93 08:44:50 GMT
Organization: SCN Research/Qic Laboratories of Tigard, Oregon.

Did anyone happen to see this morning's "Good Morning, America"
starring Wesley Allen "Hang Me" Dodd???  Amazing story. From
the time he was 15 years old, this man has been molesting little
children. Now he's condemned to hang tonight for molesting and
killing 3 poor little boys from our very own Northwest.
 
What really blew me away this morning during his interview was
when he said that "because I have found Jesus, I get to go to
heaven." WHAT??!!!

Imagine the 3 little dead boys' faces when Dodd shows up at the
Pearly Gates!

[I'm sure all of us will be in for some surprises.  One may doubt the
reality of some claimed conversions -- whether they are based on a
real Christian repentance.  But I hope you are not suggesting that
child molestation is unforgiveable.  --clh]
From: xkkreit@ericsson.se (Erik Reitsma TX/UB VL4031 94009 )
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Protestant convent?
Date: 6 Jan 93 06:42:50 GMT
Reply-To: xkkreit@ericsson.se
Organization: Ericsson Telecom AB

Hello there!

I have a question from a friend without net access. This is the question:
Are there any protestant convents, anywhere in the world? If so, could you
give some information about those?
Any E-mail on this subject to xkkreit@brazil.ericsson.se would be
appreciated! Thanx in advance.

Kind regards, 
Erik
From: dcorbett@access.digex.com (Daniel Corbett)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Is Christianity the only way?
Date: 11 Jan 93 08:58:34 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA

There seems to be a lot of judging going on in this group!  Who is it for
us to judge the 1100A.D. American Indian chief who never heard of Christ.
Only God had the right to judge this man!

Who is it for us to judge those who interpret the Bible in alternate ways?
Why is one individual's interpretation of the Bible held higher than anothers?
Is there a standard for interpretation that all Christians follow?  It seems
to me that there are many denominations of Christianity and that they differ
radically in their understanding of the Bible.

Any interpretation of the Bible is simply that individual's or group's opinion.

Any comments?

   - Daniel

dcorbett@access.digex.com
From: dsegard@nyx.cs.du.edu (Daniel Segard)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Non-procreative sex
Date: 5 Jan 93 08:26:47 GMT
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.


 > If it is immoral to have sexual activity "with the possibility
 > of fertility excluded," then it is immoral to have sexual
 > activity on any day when you know that the woman is not
 > fertile. Under that rationale, natural family planning methodes
 > would be as immoral as using artificial methods.

      And using the same logic, if a couple remains childless so that the
wife can generally be known to be infertile, barren, or however this is to
be phrased, it is then immoral for her husband to continue to have
relations with her.  Just think, we might never have had the Prophet
Samuel if Hannah had thought this way.  For that matter consider Sarah who
was post-menapause.  Giving Abraham her young hand-maid must have been the
proper thing to do since this logic would claim that it would be immoral
for Abraham to have sex with Sarah.  Frankly, I would think that tossing
out such absurd logic would be better.  The only time Scripture indicates
that sex between husband and wife is wrong is laid out in Torah -- the
time during which the wife is ritually impure each month.
From: scotth@mcs213k.cs.umr.edu
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Chuck Coleson's "THE BODY"
Date: 6 Jan 93 07:20:43 GMT

Has anyone read Chuck Coleson's new book, THE BODY, and, if you have,
could you post some thoughts about it.  I haven't had the chance to
read it yet and want to know if it's worth reading.

Thanks!
Scott Hayes
scotth@cs.umr.edu
From: mdw@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (mark.d.wuest)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: The purpose of meetings of the local church
Date: 7 Jan 93 06:14:08 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <Jan.6.01.42.35.1993.2696@geneva.rutgers.edu> abigail@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca (Shawn Abigail) writes:
>However... the idea of small group fellowships does not appeal
>to me, because it seems to divide the church.  If there is a
>problem in a local church with believers being distant from each
>other, it must be dealt with, but the best way of dealing with
>it is not to split up the church into small groups.

Hopefully, Jon Reid will give a more detailed answer (as he's just
recently looked over this issue, obvious to anyone following his
comments here), but...

While all sorts of people have been credited with coming up with the idea
of "house churches", the first century church often met in peoples' homes
simply because there was nowhere else to meet.

When my church first started doing this a few years ago, it gave me no
problems as I had learned this fact in a church history course in
college (though I knew of no churches practicing it when I was in
college - the late 70's).

I attended my parents' church recently - a traditional own-a-big-
building-with-nice-facilities place. While my church only meets "all
together" once a month, we are way more unified than their church,
which meets "all together" three times a week (only half of their
members bothered showing up for Sunday or Wednesday evening service).

Mark

PS: During their service last Wednesday, I had to chuckle because I
couldn't help thinking of the joke about the new church building
design - where all of the empty pews up front disappear and the
ones behind them slide down in their place, forcing people to sit
down front and then, when the preacher rambles on too long, the
pulpit disappears, taking him with it. I know - bad way to tell a
bad joke.  ;-)

-- 
Mark Wuest                              |     *MY* opinions, not AT&T's!!
mdw@violin.att.com (Sun Mailtool Ok)    |
mdw@cheshire.att.com (NeXT Mail)        |
From: mjsmith@cac.washington.edu (Martha Smith )
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Wesley Allen "Hang Me" Dodd
Date: 8 Jan 93 05:50:07 GMT
Organization: UW Computing

I find it fascinating that my statements regarding forgiveness and revenge are
translated by you into statements regarding justice.  I, also, believe that we
as Christians are required to work towards a just society.  But justice is in
no way a synonym for retribution or revenge.
From: brad_ke@pts.mot.com (KEVIN BRADWAY X3784 Ppppp)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: ?'s
Date: 11 Jan 93 08:34:44 GMT
Reply-To: brad_ke@pts.mot.com
Organization: Paging and Wireless Data Group

#2
My answer to #2 is that God  didn't change, for it says we are made in his
image: so therefore He can love and/or discipline his children without
changing.  He's always wanted us to obey.

#3
Christs' response on the cross is for the fulfilment of prophesy #1. But
also for the atonement, He could have no intervention from God, but 
had to do it totally on his own. For He had his free agency.
From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: ?'s
Date: 8 Jan 93 05:50:24 GMT
Organization: Indiana University

In article <Jan.7.01.27.14.1993.6107@geneva.rutgers.edu> shrum@eos.arc.nasa.gov (Rick Shrum) writes:
>Some questions:
>
>1) The concept of eternity; I mean God has *always* existed. I find it
>   hard to imagine there being no beginning.

   If God did not always exist, then how did He come into being?  That
is, wouldn't someone have to have created Him if He did not always
exist?  If so, then there would have to be another god who created
God, and so on, and so on.  The problem with that is that at some
point there would still have to be a first god who was not created by
anyone (otherwise God is just a "pyramid scheme").  And if we are
willing to accept that, then why shouldn't we instead accept the words
of our Lord, who says, "I am the only God; there is no other?"  In
other words, God is that first God who was created by no one, He has
always existed, and there are no others.

>2) If God is unchanging, why did he seem so much more harsh in the OT?

   He is unchanging, but our understanding of Him can evolve,
especially after having received His perfect Revelation, Jesus Christ.
But don't forget that even in the New Testament there is talk of
"weeping and gnashing of teeth."

>3) On the cross, Jesus asked why God had forsaken him. Didn't he have
>   total faith?

   Our moderator already mentioned it, but the words Jesus spoke were
the beginning of Psalm 22.  I suggest reading the entire Psalm.  The
end of it is much more hopeful.  It's also not unreasonable to believe
that He may in fact have recited more of the Psalm than just the words
quoted in Scripture.  In any case, if Jesus is quoting this Psalm,
then He no doubt is also thinking of the hopeful part of it as well.

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu