From: knapp@spot.Colorado.EDU (David Knapp)
Subject: Re: What needs to happen to discuss these issues productively.
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 15:09:07 GMT

In article <72977@netnews.upenn.edu> kwelch@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Jack Kerouac) writes:
>David
>>Kevin
>
>>>An infant does not have full capcity, just like a fetus. 
>
>>Kevin, (Jack), an 8 week fetus has *no* capability.
>
>I did not say an 8 week fetus.  I said a fetus.

Right, I said 8 week fetus because this is what I am referring to as ok to
abort.

>>It basically has no
>>brain.
>
>Compared to your brain, it has no brain.  It does have a brain, however.

It has a brain that doesn't work. If it doesn't work, it's no good.

>>The most value its "brain" would be is as a protein suppliment or
>>tissue for research. Because it has *no* capability,
>
>No capability to do what?  Synapse?  Transmit?  WRONG.  8week fetuses
>have definite brain activity.

Has activity that does *nothing*. There are no cognitive abilities at all.
CNS does not even work at that time. Does any amount of activity mean it is
a funtioning brain? No. It is, for all practical purposes, brain dead.
>
>>and a late term fetus
>>or infant *does* have *some* ability (there *is* capacity for some thought,
>>understanding, reasoning, recognition, insert any human quality you wish)
>>albeit it small. Here is a distinction; small versus none. This is a very
>>large 'ratio' if you will. I would have to say that a strong distinction
>>exists between an 8week fetus and an infant or a sleeping person or a 
>>comatose victim (provided their brain is not dead).
>
>You keep switching from a late fetus to an 8week fetus.


Not at all. I used a late term fetus for an example of a functioning brain.
My argument related to abortion of fetuses has *always* used an 8 week fetus.



>  YOu say at one
>time a fetus has capability then you close it by saying an 8week fetus
>does not, then you drop the issue. 

Not at all. If I didn't not make myself clear, point out the error or issue.
I do believe I said that a late term fetus has cognitive ability while an 8
week fetus does not. 


> I think there is a strong distinction
>Z an 8 week fetus and an infant too.  Does this preclude it from rights?
>


Yes. It does. It has no functioning brain. It *cannot* be a person even from
your definitions.  If you like, *you* may grant fetal tissue rights, but,
from my point of view, it is simply organic matter, yes genetically linked
to humans, yes living, yes it has the *potential* to become a person like any
sperm and egg do, but it has no functioning brain. I mean, it does *nothing*.
Sure, there is activity. This does not mean it is a functioning brain. The 
brain cannot even control its own bodily functions at 8 weeks, let alone
*think* about anything.  It is brain dead. I would have no more problem 
aborting an 8 week fetus than I would disconnecting a motorcycle rider who
had their brains smashed all over the highway from life support.


>
>>> Invalids
>>>do not have full capcity, just like a fetus.  Severly retarded people don't
>>>have full capcity, just like fetuses.
>
>>What are you calling severely retarder? Cannot blink? Cannot do calculus?
>
>I would call retarded unable to perform surface integrals...:)
>
>No, seriously retarded individuals that have no capcity to communicate
>with individuals, have no understanding of what individuals say, cannot
>take care of themselves, etc...they just don't meet personhood criteria.
>
I think there are retarded individuals who cannot take care of themselves who
have a very *strong* sense of self and who are thinking individuals and 
very much people. Some of *them* cannot communicate with others besides 
through gestures or artwork. Yours is not an adequate amount of criteria to
say they are not people. (persons, personhoods etc.)


>>Let's not use retardation as a reference as there are *hundreds* different 
>>types as well as a continuum of degree of severity.
>
>That's why I use severely retarded.  And no, I won't avoid it.  It's pertinent
>to the conversation...that's like saying let's drop the fetus, as there are
>many stages of fetal development, etc...

There are still too many criteria to cover here and too many types and 
too many degrees. *I* will avoid it, because I do not want to be dragged out
of the abortion issue into a bunch of semantic issues.

>
>
>
>>>  (third tri-fetus).  Larry, the
>>>fetus has plenty of axons and dentrites and synapses.
>
>
>>PLEASE qulify the amount of development of the fetus. An 8 week fetus is
>>*extremely* different than a 6 month fetus in every respect.
>
>Sure it is.  It's not any less human though.
>

Here we go... If I say *anything* now, you will jump on me about definitions
of words. If I say it is not human you will use "genetically human", if I
say it is not a person, you will say it has "potential".

An 8 week fetus is for all practical purposes brain dead. It is not a person.

>>A young enough fetus has no neural functionality whatsoever while a late
>>term fetus has a wonderfully complex and functional neural network in working
>>order.
>
>What is functionality to you, David?
>

The ability to control internal bodily functions would be a good start. 
The ability to think, make connections between certain occurances, memory,
emotions, reasoning etc. An 8 week fetus can do none of this, an infant 
can do all of this to some degree. 

>>>  But it isn't these
>>>which allow the transmission for thought.  It is myelination that
>>>allows for this wonder...something a fetus has around 24 weeks.
>
>
>>Precisely why we make a distinction between 8 week fetus and 32 week fetus.
>
>But there is no distinction when it comes to rights...that is my argument,
>regardless of personhood.
>

How far back do you take that? I am *still* waiting for you to point out the 
time when a sperm and egg become a human being.

-- 

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Corrected .sig for those who did not see the absurdity of the original one.
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