From: martillo@nero.clearpoint.com (Joachim Martillo)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: Arabic Names
Summary: Unauthorized violation of the Prime Directive
Date: 3 Oct 92 15:31:38 GMT
Organization: United Federation of Planets, Division of Earth Monitoring

In article <1992Sep30.141254.20832@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> ksalah@nyx.cs.du.edu (Khaled Salah) writes:

>In article 12140, faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris) writes:

>>The present problems were all due to the Ottoman rule and discovery
>> of Oil in the area that western society is enslaved to.
>>Islam was the problem for allowing a foreign rule to take over, but don't
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>blame the entire population and denounce their culture.

>Is this the way to do it?  Blame it on Islam.  

Islam as an organizing principle for society is hardly any worse than
the other mindlessly stupid systems for organizing traditional
society.  In becoming modern and civilized, the West developed a
system which totally blew Islam out of the water.

>						The Ottman rule was
>an Islamic Empire that was applying Islamic rules all over.  But the
>history they teach us was all mixed up and wrong and serves the
>justification to break down the Empire into small parts.  In history,
>they pertrayed the last Empire of Islam as corrupted and injust.  I am
>not saying that it was 100% purely Isalmic and free of corruption, but
>its good was dominating its bad.  

The Ottoman elite did a reasonable job of running a very complex
empire reasonably well.  The Ottoman elite was also interested in
adapting new Western techniques, but many of the most important
officials concluded by the end of the 19th century that to actually
fix the problems would have cost about 8 times the total wealth of
Europe.  Obviously, at the time there was no way to raise such funds.
Because half-assed incomplete attempts at modernization (like what we
see in many Muslim countries right now) can lead to even more
disastrous situations than simply remaining backward, in many aspects
the Ottoman empire adopted a policy of resisting change.

>				   For example, Jews used to come to Sultan
>Abdel Hameed who was the governer of Palestine at the time and try to
                          ^^^^^^^^

You mean ruler.

>bribe him with money, gold, etc to sell palestine for them or at least
>give them authority to migrate to it, but he refused to do so.  And he used
>to say "Palestine is the Land of All Muslims and I am just a ruler here."
>Muslims at the time used to live in honor and dignity.  

Actually, some humiliation and degradation can do a world of good.
Consider what Germany and Japan have achieved since the USA and allies
completely humbled these nations.  Or consider how Israel, composed of
a population of people Muslims and Christians routinely humiliated and
degraded over the past millenium, continually thwarts Arab and Muslim
desires to obliterate it.  There is a lot to say for returning Muslim
countries to humiliating and degrading rule by civilized Western
colonial overlords.

							 They used to travel
>from East to West without restrictions.  The only identity was Islam.

>However, look what had happened since the Arabs and Westren world
>conspired to break down the empire, you, I, and all Muslims all over the
>globe are still suffering because of it.  Name for me one Islamic nation,
>Arab or not Arab, without any problem.

Mostly because attitudes like yours are all too common and because
people like you have driven out most of the people like us who are
mathematical and who understand modern political, social and economic
organization and who know how to properly use tools like Islam to
control the more backward elements of society.

>The problem that is we are having now is that we are too far from Islam
>and trying to imitate what is so called Westren Civilzation.  Islam is
>the only way to bring us all together.  

What a brain!?  I can't think of a more effective way to concede world
domination to the civilized West.

>					 This has proven all the time in
>history.  It was muslims (not Arabs) who liberated Palestines from the
>crusaders (Salah El Deen who was from kurdish origin).  	

Actually, the Europeans just lost interest as the developments started
in Europe which would lead to the creation of a civilized modern
society which would provide orders of magnitude more benefits to
Europeans than continuing to engage in mindless savagery in the ME.

>							 It was muslims
>(not Arabs) who had the peek of civization in sience, philosphy, and
>mathmatics.  Abin Sinaa, Raziee, Jaber Bin Hyan, who are not form Arab
>origin.  

Big deal.  They are also insignificant.  Newton and Leibniz laid the
foundations for real mathematics.  The really important people in the
development of math are people like Gauss, Riemann, Hilbert, Bernays
and Go"del who created a logical analytical foundation for mathematics
completely beyond the ken of people whose minds have been rotted by
traditional eduction (including traditional Islamic education).

>	  We were all dominating the world when we were all muslims not
>Arabs.  

What do you mean we, bobo?  Maybe my ancestors, but not the ancestors
of the vast majority of Muslims on whom my ancestors battened.

>	 And that the true meaning of civlization.  It was moral and
>cultural one.

I am just dazzled by a moral system whose only basis is alleged
reports of what Allah considers good and evil.  Somehow the logical
analytical systems of great thinkers like Kant or Fichte are a wee bit
more impressive intellectual structures.  But I should point out that
Claude Levi-Strauss considered Islam rather impressive as a grand
intellectual edifice contructed on a foundation of petty bigotries and
cretinous fanaticism.

>How then could Islam have allowed for foriegn rule?  Just don't understand!
>When the Isalmic Empired was broken, there was no Islam left.  It's the
>ignorant Arabs traitors who did it, like Sharif Hussain.  Lawerence of
 ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^

Same to you, shithead.  If you had any real knowledge, you would be
aware that there was no real Arab rebellion.  That was just British
propaganda to demoralize the central powers.  The local Arab rulers
were just quite reasonably trying to position themselves to take
advantage of any eventuality.  And these guys and their descendents of
all Muslim leaders continue to prove their superior political skills.
But go ahead and dump on the only truly successful Muslim rulers.
Such a mind set will please your masters who will hardly strain their
brains worrying about being overthrown by the likes of you.

>Arabia movie shows you how they went about breaking down the empire.
>Lawerence used to travel to each village and tell them you are A R A B S,
>and you should fight for your independence from the Ottmanis.

>>I think Islamic teaching can be good for getting read of greed
>>and criminal behaviour if it was more open minded to give equality for
>>other religions and Women.

Actually, Islam has for over a millennium provide the framework by
which a lustful elite can satisfy any greed or desire especially when
the elite trained people like you to believe all this silly marketing
hype and reflexively to turn off their brains like Pavlov's dogs
whenever one of the elite or a tool of the elite uttered the
appropriate Islamic formulae.

>Islam is a way of life.  It is not only for criminals.  Islam does give
>equality to other religions.  

Clearly, you have found a hitherto undiscovered meaning for equality.

>			       Christians used to live in peace in Palestine
>when Omer Al Farooq entered Jerusalem and they even welcomed him.  Aslo
>woman has its rights in Isalm, not the way the West sees it but the way
>that Isalm sees it.  If you are not convinced read the articles that Anisa
>writes in this group or ask her to write you some explanation.  

Interestingly enough, Anisa lives in the USA and appears thoroughly
Americanized.

>								 The US has
>a rape rate of one case per 6 minutes.  Is this the way for equality?

Excuse me but this is a dishonest statistic.  There are more people in
the US than there are Arabs.  The statistic must be normalized by
population.  In any case, in Islamic countries the movement of women
is often restricted, they are completely under the control of male
relatives (who can rape them with impunity), the women have little
opportunity to report rape, the relevant officials would consider the
rape the women's fault and finally in societies as psychosexually
disturbed as Arab and Islamic societies, the consequences of reporting
a rape are far worse the suffering in silence.

>Yes Islam is open minded if you understand the rational behind every rule.
>You better understand Islam before starting to accusing it with random
>thoughts.

There are lies, damn lies, statistics and apologia for Islam.  You
have managed to include them all in this article.  Good job!

>_ Khaled Salah


-- 
Joachim Carlo Santos Martillo Ajami

The article represents noone's opinions other than the author's.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic