From: epowers@mccoy.NMSU.Edu (POWERS)
Subject: Re: Biblical support of atheism was Why Did Jesus Lament?
Organization: New Mexico State University
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 06:19:28 GMT

In article <1992Oct30.130703.164942@dstos3.dsto.gov.au>  writes:
> pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey) writes:
> 
> >In article <19921026133856ECL4JN2@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU> 
> >ECL4JN2@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU (Jack B. Nimble) writes:
> >>rtsumn01@ulkyvx02.louisville.edu (Shaitan) writes:
> >>>In article <19921023175104ECL4JN2@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU>, 
> >ECL4JN2@MVS.OAC.UCLA.EDU (Jack B. Nimble)  writes...
> >>>>According to orthodox Christian theology, Jesus made of himself a
> >>>>voluntary sacrifice and went willingly to the cross. Thus, it has
> >>>>always been unintelligible from the Christian perspective as to why
> >>>>Jesus uttered the heart-rending lament "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachtani?",
> >>>>"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
> >>>>Surely this complaint makes absolutely no sense if it was a part of
> >>>>any divine plan for Jesus to suffer and to die.
> >>>>But the answer is certainly obvious. Jesus, having come to believe that
> >>>>he was the Messiah, never expected to fail. He expected that God would
> >>>>initiate His kingdom, and install Jesus as the annointed ruler of a
> >>>>restored Israel. Apparently, he believed that some sort of divine
> >>>>miracle would occur right up until his arrest and trial by Pilate. The
> >>>>fact that he remained silent when questioned about his kingship by
> >>>>Pilate is further indication of the apparent depression that had come
> >>>>over him when he realized that he would fail in his messianic objective.
> >>>>With this in mind, Jesus' lament now becomes intelligible. He is
> >>>>bewildered at his fate, and his rhetorical question reflects the true
> >>>>tragedy of his situation.
> >>>:I guess it's a real let-down to discover that the God you believed in for  
so
> >>>long was nothing more than your imagination. . .
> 
> Jesus knew that He was the Messiah, the Son of God.  He knew that He would
> die on a cross.  This was prophesied many times in the Old Testament, and
> He shared this many times with the twelve disciples.  Just read about the
> last passover meal, for example, especially:
> 
> Matthew 26:26-29 - While they were easting, Jesus too a piece of bread,
>                    gave a prayer of thanks, broke it, and gave it to his
>                    disciples.  "Take and eat it", he said; "this is my
>                    body."
>                    Then he took a cup, gave thanks to God, and gave it to
>                    them.  "Drink it, all of you," he said; "this is my
>                    blood, which seals God's covenant, my blood poored out
>                    for many for the forgiveness of sins.  I tell you, I will
>                    never again drink this wine until the day I drink the new
>                    wine with you in my Father's Kingdom."  (Good News)
> 
> See also 1 Corinthians 11:17-34.
> 
> >>I have to agree with you here. If there really is no God, then surely
> >>Jesus deluded himself into believing that he was called upon to be the
> >>Messiah. However, given Jesus' failure to succeed in his objective of
> >>becoming king of a restored Jewish nation, the assumption that Jesus
> >>deluded himself is the only tenable one assuming that he was not a
> >>deliberate fraud.
> 
> The Jewish people at and before the time of Jesus generally thought that
> the Messiah would come and rule as a king on the earth, and so were
> disappointed when He was crucified.  However, this was interpreted
> incorrectly, since the people really only thought in terms of an earthly
> kingdom.
> 
> Instead, Jesus came as a servent, but because so many of the priests
> and those in high places were not "open" to God, they rejected what He
> taught and killed Him.  But Jesus was raised from the dead, and so
> showed that even death could not conquer Him.  Jesus resides in God's
> Kingdom, which will be established on earth when He returns (and nobody
> knows the day or hour!).
> 
> >Actually, your interpretations are inline with Judeo-Islamic thought.
> >You see, even if there is a God, this God is aloof and seldom if ever
> >intervenes in the affairs of flora and fauna.
> 
> On the contrary, He often intervenes in the affairs of everyday life,
> and He is continually guiding and helping those who are
> open to do His will.  Also, I know many Christians who tell of how
> God worked in their lives, before they became a Christian, to bring
> them to Him.
> 
> > This is free will, we have
> >it, what are we to do with it? Jesus acted like the typical Christian,
> >expecting the Lord of the Hebrews to bail him out of his predicament.
>                                       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> NO!  See my first comments.
> 
> >Many Christians continue this idea today in the concept that they can do
> >whatever they want because if they believe in Jesus, they can ride his
> >coattails into heaven, that's "lie and go to heaven in Jesus name".
> 
> No Christians that I know of beleive this!  It is just wrong!
> 
> > Of
> >course some Christians understand this God that is aloof and rarely if
> >ever intervenes in the affairs of earth creatures when they say, "God
> >works in mysterious ways." God is a symbol, a metaphor. What does it
> >mean for a symbol or metaphor to exist or not exist?
> 
> God is not a symbol or metaphor to me.  God existing, to me, means life!
> 
> 
> Yours in Christ,
> James.

	IMHO, I think I have a simpler explanation for Jesus' cry "Eloi, eloi,  
lama sabachthani".  If the penalty for sin is separation from God, and Jesus  
was to pay this penalty, he had to, at some point, be totally separated from  
God.  His cry is our evidence that this happened.
	I realize lots of people will jump in with "How could Jesus be  
separated from himself?"  Please remember, God is not part of creation and does  
not necessarily follow our rules (for example, is God bound by time?).  To  
insist he do so is like insisting that the multiplication of imaginary numbers  
follow the rules of the multiplication of real numbers.
							
							Erik Powers
Xref: sparky alt.atheism:20662 talk.religion.misc:20481