From: jnomina@andy.bgsu.edu (A.P.K.)
Subject: Re: Colleges, hazing and the military.
Organization: Bowling Green State University B.G., Oh.
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 07:36:35 GMT

naraht@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu (Randolph J. Finder) writes:
> In article <1993Jan5.154302.2564@merrimack.edu>, caina@merrimack.edu writes:
>> In article <1993Jan3.214314.2837@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu>, naraht@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu (Randolph J. Finder) writes:
>> 
>>    O.K., let's try this again!
>>> With all of the state laws against hazing, I would be interested to see if
>>> these have been applied to the US military in any way. I see three
>>> possibilities for problems.

     In a sense, there already ARE anti-hazing laws in the
military.  A recruit (who can no longer be called a boot or
a cherry because of these laws) cannot be hit, "abused", or
mistreated in any way.  The laws put into place to aledgedly
correct such problems as this are to protect cherries.. er,
recruits, and are, in that sense, anti-hazing laws.

>>> 
>> 
>>> 1) ROTC on campus: belong to an organization that hazes even if not on
>>> 	campus (summer training ??)
>> 
>>    How can you call "summer training" hazing?  If anything, I would call
>> "summer training" on the job training.  Believe me, I would rather have
>> officers who are properly trained (physically and mentally) than those
>> who are so-so because of anti-hazing laws.
> 
> Why is hazing required to make properly trained soldiers?

     Such training is NOT hazing.  It's training.  What's the
best way to show someone just how important it is to don a
gas mask in under 9 seconds?  First, show them films of what
can happen when exposed to things such as nerve gas.  Then,
send them into a gas chamber filled with a strong concentration
of tear gas, so that they can fully understand and appreciate
the protective abilities of that mask.  Short of exposing them
to real nerve gas, or other even worse things, this gets EVERYONES
attention.  Believe me from my personal experience, it only takes
once to get it straight after such an experience.  It is the
fastest and most effective way of learning something.  This is
just one example of many which I could cite, hopefully you'll
appreciate its significance.

>>> 
>> 
>>> 2) The military academies(sp?): Not only West Point, Annapolis and
>>> 	USAFA, but the private military academies as well.
>>> 
>> 
>>    
> No response on the topic of the academies?

What would one wish to know about the acadamies, which isn't
as descript as everything else people might want to consider
military "hazing"?

>> 
>>> 3) Military training sites like Parris Island.
>>> 
>>    Again, these recruits are being trained for war.  Nothing more, nothing
>> less.  To establish anti-hazing laws in boot camps would create a
>> situation where the military would be useless.
> 
> 
> again, why is hazing required?

     There is no hazing, per se.  Although one might wish to consider
military training such, it isn't.  For every incident of what some
wish to call hazing, there is one specific lesson being taught which
is most effectively taught through the school of hard knocks.  To
confuse basically useless harassment of people to form bonding
relationships within a group (the hazing which was performed by
greek systems) with specific lessons being taught within the military
system isn't a correct comparison.

>> 
>>> I'm not suggesting that this be used to kick ROTC off campus, but I wish
>>> there were a consistent standard between the military( and the military
>>> academies) and collecge fraternities.
>> 
>>    How so?
> That a contract with the US military on a college campus can give the right
> to the US military to physically and mentally abuse you and a contract with
> a fraternity cannot give a fraternity that right.

     Once a contract is drawn up and signed with the U.S. military,
it is henceforth governed by the U.C.M.J. (Uniform Code of Military
Justice.)  There is nothing in civilian life which can compare to
that book of laws.  The only comperable set of civilian laws doesn't
have any bearing on that set of laws and cannot be used to over-ride
the U.C.M.J.  If it could, then U.C.M.J. would be pointless, and
at the very least there would be anarchy among the ranks in the
military world.  Once again, the so-called hazing that goes on in
the military is the quickest, most effective way to train soldiers
certain specific lessons.  There are very strict guidlines to
prevent deliberate and intentional abuse that has no bearing on
training.  The terms which allow what little "abuse" does take
place has been given thorough consideration before it was allowed,
and really shouldn't be confused with hazing at all.

> 
> (naraht@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu)	  | Leadership,Friendship, and Service
> (vri_rjfin@dmis.ha.osd.mil)	  |          Alpha Phi Omega
> "The service we render to others  | National (Co-ed) Service Fraternity
                                                 ^
                                                / \
                                           Cool fraternity!

Hope I've clarified a few things, but if not, let me know.  Hopefully
I can be of some assistence, since the military is one thing I DO
know a little bit about.  :)

Jim