HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: macko@pilot.njin.net (Peter C. Macko)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: "democratic" Estonia
Date: 1 Sep 92 21:09:52 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.soviet
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.


  ioffe@chen.bgu.ac.il (Alex Ioffe) writes:

>The only thing I can say is that Nazis hadn't expelled Jews. All jewish emigration from Germany was illegal!!

  Actually, for a considerable period prior to the war, Germany encouraged 
Jewish emigration.  Unfortunately for the Jews, they had nowhere to go.  
Many other countries (the U.S. included) only allowed a very small number 
of jews to immigrate.  Exceptions were easily made for world reknown 
scientists and other highly needed professionals, but most Jews did not 
fall into that category.  The jist of the problem was that Germany's Jews 
had nowhere they could call home and nobody else wanted them.  The world 
turned a blind eye to the persecution of Jews until Hitler started gobbling 
up Europe.  

					-PCM
-- 

  Peter C. Macko                      Internet: macko@pilot.njin.net
  LCSR/Network Research                         macko@cs.rutgers.edu
  Telecommunications/Network Services     UUCP: {backbone}!rutgers!cs!macko
  Rutgers Computing Services,  Rutgers University (Piscataway, NJ)   
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti)
Subject: Re: "democratic" Estonia
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 07:19:17 GMT

viznyuk@physics.ucla.edu (Sergei Viznyuk) writes:
: In article <1992Aug27.092356.16987@jyu.fi> ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:
: > 
: >1939 the standard of living of Estonia and Finland were about the same,
: >after 50 years of occupation (mostly russians) every one can see by the
: >own eyes (and statistics) how big is the gap now between Finland
: >(non occupied by SU) and Estonia (occupied by Su).
Jarmo 

: And if we take Finland a la e.g. 1839, when Finns were little more
: than illiterate nomads, and compare with Russia....ah, better,
: let's compare todays Finland with what would have been Russia,
: has it not been occupied by communists...ah, no, let's better
: compare those Northern Turks (Balts, that is) with e.g. Japan....
: ah, even more: let's compare North American Indians with Estonians,
: ah...let's compare...shit, I'm tired..... What about similarity
: between Jarmo Ryyti and Hasan Mutlu ? Maybe one is forging another ?
: Accept my hottest kisses, Hasan Ryyti.
: Yours always,
: acting KGB agent Serega.
: 
: P.S. Continuation follows...

Serega,
You cannot deny the facts which are given. Why you react that way?
I wonder. 
I do not understand very much you have written abouve.
Did I destroy your logics some how?
Russia is full of talented people and good people. Why you Serega
take such an imperialistic view on things?
Jarmo


Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: oleg@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky)
Subject: Re: "democratic" Estonia
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 17:51:43 GMT
News-Software: IBM OS/2 PM RN (NR/2) v0.1 by O. Vishnepolsky and R. Rogers
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

In  <1992Aug27.110007.18722@jyu.fi>  ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:
> ...
> [worthless crap about Russians/Ukranians deleted]
> Jarmo Ryyti

Was you government using the same philosophy of "Russo, go home" when it
was extraditing escapees from the USSR back, and giving them right into
the hands of KGB ?
From: DAVIDHE@AC.DAL.CA (NAME 'Robert Dambergs')
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: e-mail connections for students
Date: 4 Sep 92 20:35:44 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

X-News: dal1 talk.politics.soviet:15139

>From: INIA100@INDYCMS.IUPUI.EDU (r Fredland)
>Subject:(none)
>Date: 4 Sep 92 17:14:52 GMT
>Message-ID:<TPS-L%92090412201839@INDYCMS.BITNET>

>During the fall semester of 1992, a course on U.S. foreign policy will be offer
>ed at Indiana Univ.-Purdue Univ. at Indianapolis (Indiana, USA). As the instruc
>tor, I am interested in connecting my students with students abroad via bitnet
>(electronic mail). My hope is to pt provide all of the students the opportunity
> to discuss and debate American foreign policy. Our students will be available
>to "talk" with their peers from approximately 7 September 1992-1 December 1992
>using e-mail. More details are available. Thank you. Richard Fredland Ph.D.
> inia100@indycms



	Any value in connecting with people in the Baltics?
	I can help set it up, (Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia)
        if it is of interest.

Regards,
Robert Dambergs
DAVIDHE@AC.DAL.CA
From: VIZNYUK@MPS.OHIO-STATE.EDU (SERGEI VIZNYUK)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Filaret defrocked
Date: 26 Aug 92 14:15:00 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

From: "Alex Allister Shvartsman, EMF, LKG2-2/T2 25-Aug-1992 1458"

RE: : Mark Markish x2799 <mmarkish@FEDS46.PRIME.COM>
| > ... The former head
| > of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, Metropolitan Filaret of Kiev,
| > has joined with leaders of the independent, and formerly banned,
| > Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church to form the Ukrainian
| > Orthodox Church of the Kievan Patriarchate, headed by Patriarch
| > Mstyslav;...

| So, how is he getting along with Vladyka Mstislav?

The statement of the "joining" is not entirely correct. I believe that
the office of Patriarch Mstyslav issued a statement that the union of
the churches was effected without his approval and that the clergy of
UAOC is not bound by any such action.

At this point the smoke is too thick...

| Granted, those stories are excruciatingly painful for many, especially
| for those of the Ukrainian origin, much the same way the stories of
| Metropolitan Sergii (Stargorodskii) and his followers have been painful
| for every Russian. But, alas, this is just a part of the price we are
| paying for Bolshevism and its origins: healing is painful, but yet it is
| healing.

Alex
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Mutlu mutation
From: verbit@coolidge.harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky)
Date: 31 Aug 92 23:59:16 EDT
Distribution: world
Organization: Sozialistische Patienten Kollektiv


A new 'mutlu' exposed himself: Serdar Argis
<sera@zuma.uucp>. I am sure that he is just a new
pseudonim of mutlu. To get rid of him, type (just now)

/^From: sera@zuma.uucp/Kh:=:j

now.

The following is his article: note a striking resemblance
with multu children! Even a signature is copied (well, sort of :)

He is prolific as well...

If you don't want to read, type <n>.



<1992Aug30.020900.8987@dscomsf.desy.de>
hallam@zeus02.desy.de (Phillip M. Hallam-Baker)

>UCBVAX provides a facility which people without NNTP posting privs can
>use to post. It is also possible to use it to forge posts through it,
>almost all mutlus appear from either this gateway or the Ohio state one,
>without exception they are forged and have been so for a very long
>while.

When you have finished forging I'd suggest you answer the points Prof
Shaw raised below.

Source: Stanford J. Shaw, on Armenian collaboration with invading Russian
armies in 1914, "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey (Volume
II: Reform, Revolution & Republic: The Rise of Modern Turkey, 1808-1975)."
(London, Cambridge University Press 1977). pp. 315-316.

"In April 1915 Dashnaks from Russian Armenia organized a revolt in the city
 of Van, whose 33,789 Armenians comprised 42.3 percent of the population,
 closest to an Armenian majority of any city in the Empire...Leaving Erivan
 on April 28, 1915, Armenian volunteers reached Van on May 14 and organized
 and carried out a general slaughter of the local Muslim population during
 the next two days while the small Ottoman garrison had to retreat to the
 southern side of the lake."

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination.
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: You thought bugging diplomats were history?
From: verbit@brauer.harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky)
Date: 28 Aug 92 01:10:54 EDT
Organization: Dept. of Math, Harvard Univ.

In article <59874@mimsy.umd.edu> vadik@cs.umd.edu (Vadim Maslov) writes:
>In article <1992Aug24.165223.15060@husc3.harvard.edu> verbit@birkhoff.harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky) writes:
>>
>>My estimation of amount of students was based on MGU (Moscow State U, where
>>I was studying) data entirely, where there are 200 000 students
>>(that's for sure).
>>
>
>I don't want to make personal insults, but if somebody other than
>respected Mikhail S. Verbitsky said that there are 200 000 students
>in MGU, I'd say that he's extremely ignorant or, in simpler words,
>stupid.
>
>MGU, in fact, has approximately 30,000 (or 17,000 -- don't remember
>exactly) students. I admit that I'm slightly mistaken, and the number
>may go up to 40,000. 
>
>
>
>-- 
>
>Vadim Maslov,	Phones: (301) 405-2726, (301) 474-3473


I am sorry for idiotic blunder. There is in fact less than 7,000 people
(students/aspirants/staff) in FizTekh (and 9 or 10 departments,
including one in Zhukovsky), according to my wife. The 
amount of MGU students was also exagerrated: there are 30,000
daytime students and slightly less evening-time ones
(totally with personnel about 60,000-70,000)

I confused MgU with Harvard :), where are 200,000 students/staff
(including Harvard Medical/ Law/Business school and women colledge).

I could be wrong with this number too. Sorry.

Misha.
Xref: sparky talk.politics.soviet:7638 soc.culture.soviet:7031
From: muh@physics.Berkeley.EDU (Yury M. Mukharsky)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Shafarevich and National Academy
Date: 3 Sep 1992 18:34:02 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Sep3.080520.15047@cco.caltech.edu> patricia@cco.caltech.edu (Patricia M. Schwarz) writes:
>And how many non-white-male members does this academy have?

I believe as many as are deserving this membership, maybe little more
than that, due to affirmative action.

Yury

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet
From: patricia@cco.caltech.edu (Patricia M. Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Shafarevich and National Academy
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 08:05:20 GMT

About this Shafarevich person: I don't know anything about him, or what
he has said or written, but I wonder how many of the Academy members would
be so concerned if he were guilty of sexism or hating black people or
Moslems or Armenians or etc.etc.
Antisemitism is bad, for sure, but so are the other things. Is the
National Academy so purely humanistic that they can point the finger
at any one crime?
And how many non-white-male members does this academy have?

Hatred is terrible. The Holocaust puts antisemitism into a direct
context of terror.


But how many blacks were lynched in the name of racism?
And about women - I grew up with horrible violence committed against
me, just because of my gender.
If we think a scientific professional organization should be deeply
concerned with morality, then I say - lets open up EVERY ONE of them
for inspection. Have any of them made racist comments or sexually
harassed their students or coworkers? Have they ever discriminated
against anyone in appointments or evaluations? 

There's a faint odor of hypocrisy here, an odor of "us against them"
rather than sincere humanistic concern.
-patricia@cco.caltech.edu
From: CDELL@VAX1.UMKC.EDU ("VALENTINE M. SMITH")
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Coup Book and Video List
Date: 26 Aug 92 13:18:58 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

I just read Pozner's book, and it would appear consistent with what I recall
occurring. I agree, however, that he is a very slick guy, who is really
hard to fathom in terms of motives and beliefs. I would add a book to the
list, Adam Ulam's 1992 _The Communists, The Story of Power and Lost Illusions
1948-1991, which concludes with the "putsch" and its ramifications. VMS
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: f33012l@puukko.hut.fi (Janne Kivel{)
Subject: Re: treacherous Russians (Re: "democratic" Estonia)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 07:16:38 GMT

covdy@shemesh.metaphor.com (Ivan Covdy) writes:

>The situation is dangerous ALREADY.
>Don't Baltic goverments realize that by discriminating minorities
>they go in direction of the Yugoslavian variant?

But who is the milosevic of Russia? Rutshkoi?

>Or do the do it intentionally, in order to distract attention from
>their inability to solve the economic problems?

One thing that might influence Baltic internal politics is the return
of Balts in exile. These people have little idea of what is life like
in present Estonia, since they are descendants of Balts who fled 
the Russian invasion and have never lived in their countries during
the occupation. If exile Balts get to a position of power, they might
have a more radical point of view about Russians living in the Baltics than
those who have lived through the Soviet occupation. This is just guessing
and if I'm utterly wrong, please come forward.

>But the Russian goverment is unable to solve their economic problems either,
>so they need a scapegoat, too. In fact, some Russians are just waiting for
>a convinient case to start shooting.

I don't know if Yeltsin is getting any better information than Gorbatchev
got from his 'informants'.

>Shit! I think, L.I.Breznev was, indeed, a great political figure!
>Everything was so quite and peaceful in his times. And they even
>had the "friendship of peoples"...

During the Brezhnev era Fenno-Soviet friendship reached its all-time peak
when Leonid and president Kekkonen went hunting together. :-)

>  Ivan Covdy, covdy@shemesh.metaphor.com, METAPHOR Inc.,  CA,  USA

Janne Kivela"
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Latvian citizenship
From: verbit@zariski.harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky)
Date: 2 Sep 92 03:59:11 EDT
Organization: Sozialistische Patienten Kollektiv

In article <1992Aug29.210837.605@enea.se> sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:

>The massive Russian immigration in Estonia and Latvia is regrettable.
>However, many of the immigrating Russians (and other Soviets) were
>victims of the Soviet systems as well as the Balts.

Yes, and the reason of immigration was at most part that the
communistic regime in Baltics was a lot more liberal than in
Russia.

Misha
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: f33012l@puukko.hut.fi (Janne Kivel{)
Subject: Re: treacherous Russians (Re: "democratic" Estonia)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 10:54:20 GMT

oleg@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky) writes:

>   Rather than Russian government is using injustices towards ethnic Russians
>   in the Baltics as a pretext to mount hostilities against the Baltic states,
>   it is the Baltic states themselves who have been using the ex-Soviet army
>   presence to draw attention of the Balts from the current economical
>   difficulties.

Didn't Secretary of State Kozyrev just say that one condition of the withdrawal
of troops is to change the citizenship laws? So Russian government is using
the troops to influence the internal affairs of another country. The Baltic
governments rightfully fear that ex-Soviet army might be used to force
these countries to comply with the will of Russian government.

>>4) The Russian settlers are not in the position of pre-World War II European
>>Jews, who had no homeland to which they could flee.  Russia may be ragged and
>>poor, but it's there.  As a Western diplomat commented in the Nov. 7, 1991,
>>Christian Science Monitor:  as long as they possess citizenship in another
>>country, this is NOT a human-rights question.
>
> You simply do not know what you are talking about. You do not know what it
> is like to be born, raised and spend most of your life in a particular place,
> and then be thrown out on some absurd basis. To most Russians in the Baltics,
> Baltics is their home. It is utterly inhumane to force them to live.
                                                                 ~~~~
                      So why don't we let them die. :-)

                      Sorry, couldn't resist.

These people were _Soviet_ citizens who lost their homeland which was 
_Soviet Union_. They have little or no connection to the history, culture
and tradition of the Baltic countries. They came not knowing that they
were moving to a 'stolen land'. There is really no reason to blame these
people if they don't understand that Estonian independence is restored
after 50 years of occupation. 

Some of them might wish to apply for citizenship of their new country, 
which isn't impossible by any means even if you spoke Swahili as your 
mother tongue. People who think that Baltic countries should really
be part of Russia are a small majority. Some of them may be afraid
of becoming second-class citizens and would like to leave if they had
some place else to go.

The situation can be dangerous only if the Baltic states really start to deport
people or if there's a coup in Russia.

Janne Kivela"
From: muh@physics.Berkeley.EDU (Yury M. Mukharsky)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: "democratic" Estonia
Date: 27 Aug 1992 20:59:35 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Aug27.110007.18722@jyu.fi> ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:
>muh@physics.Berkeley.EDU (Yury M. Mukharsky) writes:

>: I think I can find couple of other examples. If you are so eager to 
>: call your country colony, you should think about fact that the colonies
>: which did not expell their colonizers are much better off :).
>
>
>What Mukharsky is writing is bad joking. We find a lot of examples
>which are quite contrary and  one not far away from Estonia. When the
>russians were expelled 1917 from Finland first then real progress began
>in Finland, Finland as an independent country.

We were talking about colonies, so I meant African countries. I really
do not consider neither Estonia nor Finland as colonies.

>When the Estonians require a stay of three years as a minimum length of

Have you read articles at all? I do not remember anybody complaining
about 3 years stay requirement. This is just, from my point of view.
Most complaints were about language requirement.

>So I were not at all suprised if Vizniyk & Co were revealed as 

You jerk better be careful with offenses.

>former or present KGB people.
>

Yury
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X)
Subject: Supreme court and double jeopardy (WAS: RKBA - are you missing the point?)
Organization: Twilight Zone
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 21:29:55 GMT

In article <17tn0lINN845@agate.berkeley.edu> fcrary@ocf.berkeley.edu (Frank Crary) writes:

>I'm not sure about courts of appeals, but the Supreme Court can definitely
>overrule a jury's verdict on the basis of the evidence:

	But they cannot overturn a jury's not guilty verdict, am I not
	correct?

	This brings up another scary prospect.  If we go WAY back into
	ancient history, we find that once upon a time there were a few
	extremely scummy LAPD officers that beat up a guy named Rodney King.
	Sadly they were acquitted rather than castrated as it seems they should
	have been.  But the juries verdict of not guilty, no matter how it
	may gall one, should be repsected.

	All of a sudden we begin to hear these stories about the Guv in a
	frenzy to proffer federal charges against these lame brained idiots
	for the same offenses.  Now I may be wrong here, but I believe there is
	a document called the Constitution and that somewhere in that document
	there is wording to the effect that a person cannot be tried for the 
	same crime twice.  And yet, here we find our beloved Guv, the great
	keeper of "our best interests", doing just that which the consitution
	deems a great no-no.  Granted the actual name of the charges being
	brought may be different, but is this not still improper?  Granted
	that I would love to see these officers flattened in the street to
	a uniform thickness of 3/8 inch with a steam roller, but I cannot
	under any circumstance agree with their being tried twice for the same
	offense.  
	
	It's getting pretty crazy folks.  Mark my words, in 5 or 10 years
	you'll be seeing people flee this once great land of ours to find
	freedom in Russia.  Wouldn't THAT be an ironic laugh!


	-Andy V.
Xref: sparky talk.politics.guns:20271 soc.culture.french:6278
From: ataylor@nmsu.edu (Nosy)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns,soc.culture.french
Subject: Re: Guns, and the necessity to trust our governement.
Date: 28 Aug 92 16:29:46 GMT
	<1992Aug22.130145.15014@husc3.harvard.edu>
	<1992Aug23.010331.15464@microsoft.com>
Organization: NMSU Computer Science


   In article <1992Aug23.010331.15464@microsoft.com>, marcmil@microsoft.com
   (Marc Milanini) writes:

   > Whereas in the USA, you can buy M16s by reading ads in the newspapers.

	Not without committing a Federal Felony good for 10 years
	in prison and a $10,000 fine.

	You want to LEGALLY buy an M16? Fine. Get your local
	police chief to approve the sale IN WRITING, send that
	and your fingerprints to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco
	and Firearms along with a $200 tax and wait until you
	have passed the FBI background check.

	Oh, and make sure that you live in a State which allows
	private ownership of such firearms; Washington state,
	for example, PROHIBITS private ownership of Class III
	(full auto) firearms to civilians absolutely.

	Is Microsoft still in Washington State?
	
   > We agree that European countries have less criminality than the USA.

	We agree that they have less REPORTED criminality.
	Quickly now, what is the armed robbery rate for, oh, France?

	Do you know? Can you find out?

   > As a matter of fact, thay also have harscher control on guns...

	False. French firearms laws are LESS restrictive than
	the laws of New York City, Washington DC to name but
	two US sites. Swiss law is less generally restrictive than
	the law of Kalifornia.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.bush