From: cj@eno.corp.sgi.com (C J Silverio)
Subject: sex: pleasure or reproduction? (was THE IMPLICATIONS OF ABORTION ON OUR SOCIETY)
Reply-To: cj@eno.corp.sgi.com (C J Silverio)
Organization: SGI TechPubs
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 92 21:47:08 GMT

[Note that I've rearranged Steve's text slightly, to
 group related points.  For correct context, see his
 original post.  My apologies to Steve if I've mangled
 his sense with my reorganization.]

First, franklin@ug.cs.dal.ca (Steve Franklin) makes a 
comment which both Ronald Bense & I found startling:
|>>Oh, jeeez, I know that. That is my entire point. The emphasis
|>>wthin society is that sex is for pleasure, not reproduction. I
|>>am aware of that, and embarassed by it as well.

Then bense@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Ronald Bense) comments:
|>Embarassed??? Why? Leads me to wonder if you've ever had sex,
|>or if you are so inhibited by insecurity that you couldn't enjoy
|>it. Have you ever wondered why humans are the only species on
|>earth that copulate when they wish, instead of when nature
|>dictates? Because it is pleasurable.

Steve Franklin replies:
|I am embarassed not for myself but society. Sex has been lowered
|to an ACT. Not a hinge of a relationship, not the means to a child,
|not even a shred of responsibility. 

Why does sex need to be any of these things?  Here's a question
for you that might help me understand your position:  what is
your opinion of masturbation?  It seems to me that masturbation
is intrinsicly free from relationships, reproduction, and
responsibility.

|The end result, the child has lost priority and is often
|forgotten. That's what having sex is for dude. The fact that it
|feels good is a bonus [...]
|You know why sex is "pleasurable" as you so adeptly summarized
|it?  Because if it wasn't, our population would be a bit of a
|problem. However, mother nature hasn't really allowed for Trojan
|condoms and abortions...  [...]

If ghod had meant us to fly...  Human intelligence is a flexible
tool.  I'm quite content to use it to beat natural selection in
many ways:  by wearing glasses, by using surgery & other medical
techniques to correct physical problems that might otherwise
kill me, and by using birth control.  If you think your destiny
is to propagate your "selfish genes", hey, go for it.

|Lemme guess - you obviously didn't wait till
|marriage for sex, but do you wait till Christmas to open your
|presents? There's a time and a place for everything, and
|promiscuity is sure presenting us with a hell of a problem now
|isn't it?

What does premarital sex have to do with promiscuity?
Most people in our society seem to practice serial monogamy.
Have you any objections to that?  What's the big deal with
marriage?  Why should I care about it?

[...]
|In any case, between beer commercials and your post, you have
|proved my point wonderfully. If I don't have sex, I"m insecure.
 [...]
|Incedentally, I don't think there is a shred of insecurity in
|me.  However, you and your mentality telling people "if you
|dont' have sex, you ain't normal" has gotta go buddy. You keep
|telling yourself you're macho. I don't wanna hear about it.

I think you misunderstood Ronald's point.  People were aghast
about your comment that you were embarassed that society feels
sex is for pleasure.  If the idea that sex is pleasurable upsets
you so much, perhaps you have some unresolved issues that might
benefit from therapy.  No one was making fun of your choice to
refrain, since that was not what your comment was about.

I'll respect your choice to refrain from sexual activity, if you
respect my choices.

I wonder, though, if you've ever had sex.  (No, I'm not asking
you to post yes or no.  I'm just wondering.)  Most of the
sexually active people I know aren't as obsessed with it as you
seem to think.

---
cj@eno.corp.sgi.com      C J Silverio/Brahms Gang/Berkeley CA 94720
"Distinctions of this kind are interesting because they notify us
about the limits of our empathy."  --Brian Eno
Newsgroups: talk.abortion