HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: banghartr@clvax1.cl.msu.edu (Rick Banghart, IPTV)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Astrology: Scientific Research
Date: 9 Nov 92 19:11:29 GMT
Reply-To: banghartr@clvax1.cl.msu.edu
Organization: NASA Goddard Space Flight Center - Greenbelt, MD, USA
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4

In article <1992Nov9.074936.11584@eagercon.com>, eager@eagercon.com (Michael J. Eager) writes...
>In article 960@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu, banghartr@clvax1.cl.msu.edu (Rick Banghart, IPTV) writes:
>>In article <zlsiida.353@fs1.mcc.ac.uk>, zlsiida@fs1.mcc.ac.uk (dave budd) writes...
>>>In article <1992Oct31.195121.27772@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> banghartr@clvax1.cl.msu.edu (Rick Banghart, IPTV) writes:
>>> 
>>>>Why is a statistical correlation weaker evidence?
[ Stuff deleted where I learned my lesson. ]

> 

[and on to my next lesson.]

>Strong statistical correlation implies greater than that produced by 
>chance.  The lowest correlation is 0, which is exactly that produced 
>by two unrelated chance occurances.
> 
>When two events are correlated to a high degree, the general assumption
>is that there is some relationship.  But correlation does not tell you 
>what the relationship is.  One may cause the other, or they may both
>be caused by come third, independent, event.  Or both may be related
>through some long sequence of rather independent events.
> 
>The one that I like is that there is an almost 100% correlation between
>being an alchoholic and drinking milk as a child.  I wouldn't hazard 
>a claim that they were causally.

This becomes helpful to me in forming my question.  It seems
that in the field of astrology (as well as in other fields
where the causal mechanism is highly suspect) there is a
fundamental difficulty in establishing any meaningful relationship
between two events.  

How do we keep from making the error of linking milk drinking
to alcoholism?  It seems that in that case we would find that
while nearly all alcoholics began by drinking milk, not all
milk drinkers became alcoholics.  If we were to find that the
correlation worked both ways, we would have information that
would be useful both in spotting alcoholics (if we knew they
had drunk milk) and early milk drinkers (we'd  scoop them off
the barroom floor).  I realize that even then we would not 
know that milk drinking *caused* alcoholism.

Back to astrology.  Evidence that would support astrology would
have to show that a planetary event correlates to a human event,
and that a human event correlates to a planetary event.

Would that do it?

Rick
> 
>---
>Michael J. Eager		Michael.Eager@eagercon.com
>Eager Consulting		(415) 325-8077 
>1960 Park Boulevard, Palo Alto, CA 94306-1141
> 
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: skh4161@mvs.draper.com (Kjeld Hvatum)
Subject: Re: Geneticism and free will
Organization: Draper Laboratory
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1992 19:41:00 GMT


>From: Randy Crawford <crawford@boole.mitre.org>
>Message-ID: <1992Nov1.052314.3428@linus.mitre.org>
>
>In article <01GQFRBQB3KY94FEDT@ccfvx3.draper.com> skh4161@mvs.draper.com (Kjeld
> Hvatum) writes:
>>
>>Did you make up this definition of randomness?
>>...
>
>No, I didn't make it up.  As I described it, randomness forms the
>cornerstone of computer science algorithms such as the Quicksort.
>To be random, the event must be equally likely to occur as any other
>possible event and must occur with equal regularity across the range
>of it's possible events.

This is a narrow definition which affords no particular insights.
I found one dictionary which defines it this way, but others
define it more generally, even in the statistical sense.

>By "sharp edges" are you suggesting that you can't die yesterday or
>that 2 dice can't roll a 13?  Or are you inventing yet another kind
>of randomness?

I'm referring to the fact that your narrow definition makes it
impossible for an unbounded or a single-bounded continuous
variable to be random, since it would have to be a flat
distribution that integrates to 1 over infinity.  Continuous
distributions with both upper and lower bounds are unnatural -
such distributions are naturally discrete (the binomial distribution,
for example).  In other words, your narrow definition of random
makes it only applicable to discrete distributions.

>A bell curve indicates a pool of events that were anything but random.

Your whole argument rests on your definition of random.  I understand
all the other points you made.

>The reason that IQ and SAT scores fall into a bell curge is that more
>people score 100s than 130s.  If you choose a person at random from the
>population, s/he is more likely to score exactly 100 than any other
>number (if the IQ test lives up to its claim).  The fact is, IQ and
>SAT proficiency are not random, no matter how large the population is.

Ah, but IQ and SAT proficiency *is* random on the *percentile*
scale, according to your narrow definition, since every percentile
occurs with the same frequency, by definition.  So it depends on
which proficiency scale you're talking about, even on the same test.
So, merely applying a scaling function to a measurement can change
its randomness?

>Your example of a lightning strike involves too many variables for
>simple analysis.  However, if the storm were sufficiently widespread
>to allow for one strike not to affect another, lasted long enough to
>provide a large sample of strikes, and all other conditions were equal
>(or randomly distributed :-) ), I see no reason to believe that during
>a storm the strikes could not occur at fully random intervals, falling
>between 0 seconds and the longest interval in the sample.

What you just described is the Poisson distribution, and it
is impossible for it to be flat, therefore it can never be
random, according to your definition.
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: johnson@sleipnir.mnesouth.corp.mot.com (Mark Johnson)
Subject: Re: Voting Analysis
Reply-To: johnson@sleipnir.mnesouth.corp.mot.com
Organization: Motorola Wireless Enterprises, Schaumburg, IL
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 17:39:19 GMT

This thread has had its interesting points, but the thing to remember is
that politicians live to get votes (at least professionally).  The idea
is to get more votes than the other guy.  If you don't vote, you will be
ignored.

While not voting may or may not *send* a message, sending a message is
of no use if it is not received.  I doubt that most campaigns hire
information theory specialists to help them decode this message.
-- 
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "Johnson"                              |Just because you're paranoid doesn't|
| johnson@sleipnir.mnesouth.corp.mot.com |   mean they're not out to get you. |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Let's face it; if our lawyers knew what went on here, they'd shut us down.  |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: chorley@vms.ocom.okstate.edu
Subject: Re: Why manhole covers are round
Organization: OSU College of Osteopathic Medicine
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 23:04:56 GMT

In article <1992Nov5.152124.16628@newstand.syr.edu>, pbwhite@rodan.acs.syr.edu (White) writes:
> 
> Manhole covers are round because:
> 
> 1)  They are extremely heavy, and they are wheel shaped, making them easy
> 	to roll
> 2)  A circle is the only shape which will not fall into the hole when
> 	rotated.      ^^^^^^^^^^

                     Nope: if you remember, in grade school you drew six
pointed flowers using a pair of compasses (Anglicism?) and you thought that
dividing the circle like that was pretty neat (Americanism): If you use an
equilateral triangle as a guide and the length of one side as the radius, you
can construct a three curved sided "triangle" of constant diameter that will nt
fall into its own hole. 

> 3)  A cover which is round does not have to be oriented a special way to
> 	fit over the hole

True.
	I thought that a good reason for circular manhole covers might be that a
circle (cylinder of pancake proportions) would distort more uniformly under load
and/or thermal expansion.
From: radams@BNR.CA (Rodney Adams)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Voting Analysis
Date: 9 Nov 92 20:03:08 GMT
Reply-To: "Rodney Adams" <RADAMS@BNR.CA>
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.

In article <1992Nov9.001841.10616@eagercon.com>, eager@eagercon.com
(Michael J. Eager) writes:
|>In almost all cases, with great precision and accuracy, I can determine 
|>that a vote was cast and with great assurance, tell what the meaning of the
|>vote was.

Although I definitely agree that voting sends a clearer meaning than not
voting, consider this:  I tuned into CNN on the night of the election
and heard that the results of a poll revealed that the majority want
less government, less government spending, and lower taxes, but they
elected a Democrat as President!  Considering only the votes themselves, 
one might be deceived into believing that the majority actually voted FOR 
Clinton, as opposed to voting AGAINST Bush and the current state of the 
economy.  Then there's the race for Texas Railroad Commissioner, for which
the choices were among the incumbent Democrat who was appointed based upon 
false credentials in her resume (she lied about having received a degree), 
a Republican who condoned sex parties thrown on taxpayers' money, and a 
Libertarian who wanted to eliminate the office for which he was running.
Do you think that many Texans actually voted FOR one of these three
candidates, rather than AGAINST the other two?  While you may be able to
decipher the "meaning" behind a vote, my point is that a vote, in and of
itself, is not generally enough to determine the voter's intentions.
                                                            
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Rodney G. Adams
The opinions expressed above are not necessarily those of my employer.
As if you didn't already know that....
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: pbwhite@rodan.acs.syr.edu (White)
Subject: Why manhole covers are round
Organization: Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 92 15:21:24 EST


Manhole covers are round because:

1)  They are extremely heavy, and they are wheel shaped, making them easy
	to roll
2)  A circle is the only shape which will not fall into the hole when
	rotated.
3)  A cover which is round does not have to be oriented a special way to
	fit over the hole
From: gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Marylin Vos Savant.  Personal info request <=****
Date: 12 Nov 92 23:39:47 GMT
Article-I.D.: cbnewse.1992Nov12.233947.25691
Organization: AT&T

In article <mike_steiner-121192114014@192.35.50.131> mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner) writes:
>In article <1992Nov10.165452.9185@cbnewse.cb.att.com>,
>gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart) wrote:
>> 
>> In article <09Nov92200433@miracle.com> jcooley@miracle.com (John Cooley) writes:
>> >edp@math.zk3.dec.com (Eric Postpischil) writes:
>> >>In article <R1PVTB4w165w@iowegia.uucp>, quest@iowegia.uucp (Steve J.
>> >>Quest) writes:
>> >>
>> >>>My first reaction to the name is "what a lucky person to have a 
>> >>>last name of Savant".
>> >>
>> >>It might not be luck; a family might have been named for their
>> >>characteristics.  I've been told "Postpischil" is Czechoslovakian for
>> >>"quick witted".
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>                                -- edp (Eric Postpischil)
>> >>                                "Always mount a scratch monkey."
>> >>                                edp@rusure.enet.dec.com
>> >
>> >
>> >Eric, isn't Postpischil a German name though?
>> >
>> >                                   -- John who name has many meanings
>> 
>> I think it's Austrian for "One who has made yellow snow."
>
>No, it means after the one who has made yellow snow--you forgot the
>pre-Post.
>

Funny.  All this time I thought "has" was already past tense.

GMS
From: nicolas@stam.nl (Nico Veenkamp)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: IG in Flevohof
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 92 11:56:40 CET
Organization: Stam Tijdschriften bv, Rijswijk, The Netherlands

jlc5f@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Jean L. Cooper) writes:

> So--did anyone go to the International Gathering?
> Did you enjoy yourself?
> 
When you mean the IG in The Netherlands than yes, I went there and I did 
enjoy myself. I don't go to any of the lectures because I ran the 
videoprogram so did have the time. Met several old friends (whom I didn't 
know that they were in Mensa too) and made some new friends. All in all 
had a good time.


      *================================================================*
      |  Nico Veenkamp	        | You write, we publish                |
      |  Stam Tijdschriften bv  | -------------------------------------|
      |  P.O. Box 235           | Internet : nicolas@stam.nl           |
      |  2280 AE  Rijswijk      | FidoNet  : 2:281/1.7                 |
      |  The Netherlands        | BIX      : nicolas                   |
      *================================================================*
From: eager@eagercon.com (Michael J. Eager)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Voting Analysis
Date: 10 Nov 92 21:45:45 GMT
Reply-To: eager@eagercon.com
Organization: Eager Consulting

In article 1686@bnr.ca, radams@BNR.CA (Rodney Adams) writes:
>In article <1992Nov9.001841.10616@eagercon.com>, eager@eagercon.com
>(Michael J. Eager) writes:
>|>In almost all cases, with great precision and accuracy, I can determine 
>|>that a vote was cast and with great assurance, tell what the meaning of the
>|>vote was.
>
>Although I definitely agree that voting sends a clearer meaning than not
>voting, consider this:  I tuned into CNN on the night of the election
>and heard that the results of a poll revealed that the majority want
>less government, less government spending, and lower taxes, but they
>elected a Democrat as President!  Considering only the votes themselves, 
>one might be deceived into believing that the majority actually voted FOR 
>Clinton, as opposed to voting AGAINST Bush and the current state of the 
>economy.  Then there's the race for Texas Railroad Commissioner, for which
>the choices were among the incumbent Democrat who was appointed based upon 
>false credentials in her resume (she lied about having received a degree), 
>a Republican who condoned sex parties thrown on taxpayers' money, and a 
>Libertarian who wanted to eliminate the office for which he was running.
>Do you think that many Texans actually voted FOR one of these three
>candidates, rather than AGAINST the other two?  While you may be able to
>decipher the "meaning" behind a vote, my point is that a vote, in and of
>itself, is not generally enough to determine the voter's intentions.


Yes, you may not be able to determine the motive for the vote, but the
message is clear.  Of the people who were standing for election, the voter
chose the one voted for.

I might note that in sending any message, there is no way to determine what
motive the person had in sending the message.  I might order a book on 
Cannabalism from the local bookstore (which can be considered as sending
a very clear message--sell me this book), but you can't assume that I'm looking
for something to prepare when I invite a friend for dinner.

I might vote for the Republican Railroad Commish, provided that I get invited
to the parties.
 
---
Michael J. Eager		Michael.Eager@eagercon.com
Eager Consulting		(415) 325-8077 
1960 Park Boulevard, Palo Alto, CA 94306-1141
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: moroney@ramblr.enet.dec.com
Subject: Re: Boycotting the Vote
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 00:06:27 GMT

In article <mike_steiner-101192125731@192.35.50.131>, mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner) writes...
>That is true; [None of the Above] is on the ballot in Nevada.  IMO, it should
>be on the ballot in every state, for every election. 

Definitely!

But what should the proper procedure be if "None of the Above" wins?  Office
goes vacant?  A new election with all those on the previous ballot[s]
ineligible?  Something else?

-Mike
From: mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Weighted Suffrage
Date: 12 Nov 92 20:00:24 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.mensa

In article <1dq46nINNocn@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, al037@cleveland.Freenet.Edu
(Dave Polewka) wrote:
> 
> 
> In a previous article, nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson) says:
> 
> >  I'm still unclear about what the problem is that weighted suffrage
> >  is supposed to solve.  Is there any way to express that problem
> >  that doesn't boil down to us accepting the particular biases of
> >  the proponent, "people who don't contribute economically shouldn't
> >  have political power", or "the rich have too much political power".
> 
> It all depends on your particular agenda.  If you want more
> government, then there's no problem--things are moving along
> just fine.  If you want less government, then one-man-one-vote
> doesn't make it.  Weighting by income taxes paid would tend to
> favor the middle class agenda (since they pay most of the taxes),
> which would feature the election of those who would reduce the
> size and scope of government, thus freeing up the private sector.
> The increased role of the marketplace would narrow the gap between
> rich and poor, and promote peace worldwide.

This presumes that the middle class wants to limit the size and scope of
government--something that I believe that doesn't middle class doesn't care
about either way.  All that almost any member of the middle class really
cares about from the governent is that his/her own taxes are kept as low as
possible, and that the government keep off his/her back.

+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Now that I have a reader that can do .sigs, I can't think of a witty |
|one to put here, so I won't.  All normal disclaimers apply.          |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: jmwojtal@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Wojo)
Subject: How to get IQ tests
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester MI.
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 01:50:40 GMT

I was wondering how a person can take an IQ test?

I never took one in school, and I just wanted to know what my IQ is.  Do you go
to a school and ask for one, or what.  Can anyone give me advice on getting one
for me please?


-- 
************************************************************************
Jeff Wojtalewicz (Wojo)  jmwojtal@vela.acs.oakland.edu
Oakland University		      Start Hacking
************************************************************************
From: kvdoel@cs.ubc.ca (Kees van den Doel)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Geometric Problem
Date: 7 Nov 1992 03:29:41 -0800
Organization: Computer Science, University of B.C., Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: cascade.cs.ubc.ca

Suppose we have a regular tetrahedron in a sphere, i.e. all of
it's vertices are on the surface of the sphere.
Now you are allowed to distort the tetrahedron by moving it's
vertices on the sphere under the condition that the area of each
triangle remains constant.
Describe the ways that the tetrahedron can be distorted.

I like this problem because it seems to require no knowledge,
just insight.

--Kees

Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart)
Subject: Re: Xerox of GMAT score OK for admission?
Organization: AT&T
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 23:55:40 GMT

In article <579@nate.UUCP> matt@severian.chi.il.us: (Matt Crawford) writes:
>>> any more than you Kirby your carpet ...  Xerox is based here in
>>> Rochester, NY, and spends multi dineri to try to keep from losing
>>> its rights to its trademark.
>>
>>Ah, but that's *their* worry, and not mine.  I own no Xerox stock and
>>won't lose any sleep over anyone's use of xerox as a generic term,
>>any more than I worry about saying "Zipper brand clothing fastener"
>>or "Aspirin brand analgesic."
>>
>>What next, "Post-It brand slightly adhesive notepaper"?
>>
>>And by the way, there are places where they "Hoover" a carpet.
>>
>>And "fridge" was once short for "Frigidaire."
>>
>
>And then From: gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart):
>[All of the above, plus:]
>>Actually, it's pretty easy to avoid posting incorrect information
>>that can be checked in a dictionary.  Look up Xerox again.
>>
>>GM("Dictionary Man")S
>
>Well, it looks like all those lawyers wasted their time,
>then, doesn't it?  Tsk tsk, what a shame.

No.  Xerox still owns the registered trademark, regardless of whether it
is recorded in the dictionary as a verb.

GMS
From: chenowet@rd1632.Dayton.NCR.COM (Steve Chenoweth)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: IQ Test Creation Question
Date: 9 Nov 92 14:31:55 GMT
Reply-To: chenowet@rd1632.Dayton.NCR.com (Steve Chenoweth)
Organization: NCR Technology & Development, Dayton, Ohio

In article <4125@bcstec.ca.boeing.com> stein@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Halden Stein) writes:
>I understand how someone with an IQ greater than mine can develop
>test items to judge my abilities. Who creates the test for someone
>such as Marylin Vos Savant (highest IQ at the moment)? It seems that
>the test creators would need to have higher IQs than the test takers.

Very high scores like that can be suspect.  Quite often they are
for kids who are, say, 5 or 10 years old who score a "mental age" of 10 or 20, 
respectively, on a test like the Binet, giving them "an IQ of 200."  There
are other effects mixed up in testing kids, like the fact that some
kids just mature faster than others (who later catch up).

As I recall, many instruments aren't officially scored beyond a certain point,
so somebody may be extrapolating on their own here, too.

I think a lot of us would be interested in how Mensa members respond to the
author's question here, of whether the test giver or maker has to be smarter
than the test taker.

-- 
Steve.Chenoweth@Dayton.NCR.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: rhs@world.std.com (Richard H Schwartz)
Subject: Re: Voting Analysis
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 00:14:01 GMT

eager@eagercon.com (Michael J. Eager) writes:
>First, it the only wordplay going on is the stuff you are using about
>reliable vs. unreliable messages.  Only my misunderstanding and misrepresenting
>the little bit of knowledge you have in information theory can you come
>up with a conclusion that a non-action conveys any kind of message.

Well, in the formal definitions of information theory, maybe you
are right.  I haven't studied the field.  But in real life, it is
plain as day that non-action may convey very strong messages at 
times.  Now, if I remember my history...:

Cuban Missile Crisis.  Critical juncture.  Kennedy receives a message from 
Khruschev.  While pondering a response, he receives another message from
Khruschev, contradicting points in the first message, and definitely taking
a harder line.  Kennedy choses to ignore message number two. He answers
only message number 1.  He takes no action at all on message number 2.

The world didn't end.  Khruschev got the message loud and clear: "Kennedy
knows that there are conflicting viewpoints on this matter in the Kremlin;
Kennedy is staking everything on the abilibty of the more moderate faction
to prevail; Kennedy will not deal at all with the hard-liners."

Non-action on something that someone else *knows* you are able to take 
action on definitely can convey a message.  It can never be a perfectly
clear message, but if there is a history of actions and non-actions 
between the parties, it can be clear enough.

Not-voting, by itself, does not convey a clear message.  If Eric is saying
that one *can* establish a history of actions and non-actions that bring
out the message, I have to agree in principle.  I think, however, that 
such a history would have to be very explicit in this case (like maybe
a full page ad in the New York Times that says "we the undersigned aren't
going to vote because...").

-rich


-- 
             Richard H. Schwartz, Scheduling Systems Inc.,
            1000 Massachusetts Avenue, Cambridge, MA  02138
                  (617) 864 8330; FAX (617) 864 8377
                          rhs@world.std.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa