HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Path: shearson.com!uunet!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbnewse!cbnewsd!att-out!cbfsb!cbnewsg.cb.att.com!rrp
   From: rrp@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (rakesh.r.patel)
   Sender: news@cbfsb.cb.att.com
   Organization: AT&T
   References: <1993Jan2.195535.11351@athena.mit.edu> <VAGARWAL.93Jan4110437@dis9002.shearson.com>
   Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 14:13:44 GMT
   Lines: 30

   In article <VAGARWAL.93Jan4110437@dis9002.shearson.com> vagarwal@tardis.shearson.com writes:
   >Why do you see European as ONE SINGLE RACE not as German,French,British,Irish,Italian,
   >Swedish.....when you SEE NON-Europeans as Japanese,Chinese,Indian,Pakistani .... ?

   I think the point was that other non-europeans have also experienced similar
   problems in being accepted as "Americans". It is a given fact that an european
   will be totally assimilated within the US within a single generation. While on 
   the other hand, anyone else coming from Asia, Latin America, Africa will never
   be the accepted as an "American".  

   .
   >Take a typical application FORM in US. It asks for your race (optional) as follows
   >
   >1- White 2 - Asian 3- ...   etc. 
   >
   >Why Non-Europeans are identified by the region or
   >religion they originated from and ALL Europeans by the skin COLOR ONLY-> "WHITE" ? I have
   >the walls "WHITE" washed but that does not match the COLOR of European. If you want to
   >classify ALL Europeans by COLOR and not their origin then "Beige or RED/WHITE or 
   >White with brown patches so called FRICKLES" will be more appropriate.
   >
   >I was not trying to convince of my citizenship. I was ONLY replying to a posting
   >which was TRYING to convince of being AN AMERICAN.

>>   I totally miss your  point about color. I think it is universally accepted that 
>>   white means caucasians with the pinkish-light beige skin tone. Black means dark
>>   brown, and so on. But if you are pointing out that the color stratification is
>>   incorrect in the technical sense, yeah, I agree.

   Rakesh Patel
----------------------------

Well, either have the following:

1-brown 2-blue 3-beige 4-pink 5-red 6- .....and so on

OR

1-British 2- German 3- Italian 4- African 5- Asian

Does it make it clear enough?

The Race options are given what is convenient to Europeans.
Do not assume anything. It is called brain wash --- "white means this and that ..."

--
---------------------------------------------------------------
Virendra Agarwal
vagarwal@shearson.com
212-464-2151
Lehman Brothers
388 Greenwich st.(9th Flr.)
NewYork, NY 10013
---------------------------------------------------------------
From: mvij@ocf.berkeley.edu (Manish Vij)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: SEARCH Newsletter, Vol 2 Iss 1, A.M.S., Inc.
Date: 6 Jan 1993 01:59:35 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: earthquake.berkeley.edu

In article <1i8ildINNdok@mirror.digex.com> gulati@access.digex.com writes:
>
>(#1-F) 25 years, 5'6.5" 110 lbs, fair, B. 
>Com., 2 years Diploma in Dress Designing, 
>resident of Delhi, looking for Hindu, 
>Hindustani well settled and established 
>male between 27 and 30 years. Fair tall 
>match for early marriage.

I hate to pick on any particular ad-placer, but do the matrimonials
strike anybody else as a cold meat market?

Or is it merely the verbalization of the kind of screening we already
do for ourselves?

Or are IA's so wedded to Victorian views that they can't meet people on
their own?

I hate to be so scathing, but the advice IA parents give is that they'll
arrange a marriage with someone of the same subnexus of the galaxy that
you're from, Punjabi Khatri, Kerala brahmin, whatever.  That's the main
criterion.  Then they rightly point out that dating in the U.S. is
a meat market.  Is the Indian system any less a market?  It may be based
on education, income, and color of skin rather than sexual and emotional
attractiveness -- but are these any less a commodity?

Manish
-- 
"You cannot be president of the U.S. if you don't have faith.  Remember
Lincoln, going to his knees in times of trial and the Civil War and all
that stuff.  You can't be.  And we are blessed.  So don't feel sorry for --
don't cry for me, Argentina."   -- President Bush and his keen analytical mind
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: shiv@lenti.med.umn.edu (Shiv Prasad)
Subject: Re: being asian-indian/american
Organization: University of Minnesota
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 21:13:05 GMT

In article <1993Jan5.163757.28163@cbfsb.cb.att.com> rrp@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (rakesh.r.patel) writes:
>
>I love it when I here that I speak English very well. :)
		  ^^^^

... but your spelling could use a little extra work :-)

Shiv

>
>Rakesh Patel
From: mba2@Elroy.UH.EDU (Puneet_S)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: Pressure
Date: 7 Jan 1993 17:00:47 GMT
Organization: University of Houston
Reply-To: mba2@Elroy.UH.EDU
NNTP-Posting-Host: elroy.uh.edu

>>P.	I was referring to my Uncles and Auntis who are pressuring their
>>	sons and daughters to get out of high school early, go to medical
>>	school and get married.  I refer to II or IA.  I think here there
>>	is no line between IA and II parents.

>I find this reference to 'Uncles and Auntis' rather offending. 
>We  should be concerned over 'american employees' being rather
>uneducated, underskilled and threatened by other countries providing
>better trained cheaper labor. Most of the friends I have are  
>(irrespective of their skin color) 'pressuring' their sons and daughters into
>'finishing high school and going into some "professional" career.' It is
>not always medicine and/or engineering or computer science.  
>It seems to me that parents who take interest in their children's education
>are being accused of 'pressuring' them. The young people who 'complain' of
>being pressured, are most of the time not very sure of the alternatives
>either.
>--With best regards from Shashi

P.	Woooooaahhhhh!  Hold on!
	When I made the comment it was a clarifiaction of context.  Also, if
	you noted my comment did not talk about pressuing children in general
	about higher education.  It was about:
	a.	Pressure to get out of High School early (i.e. 2 to 3 years
		vs. 4 years)
	b.	or Pressure to be doctors instead of Engineers or Lawyers or
		other non-medical degrees.

	If you mistook it to mean anything else I apologize.

	I advocate my "Uncles" and "Auntis" pressuring their kids into going
	to get a Bachelors or heck a masters and PHD.  My father pressured
	me for my Bachelors and suggested a masters.  I did get my Bachelor
	(not in medicine, which he wanted) but in Engineering (which he is)
	and am now working and have come back to get a Masters.  The kid I
	talk about are like my younger brothers. 

_______________________________________________________________________________
TOYS
Puneet

                                                         MBA2@JETSON.UH.EDU   or
                                                         BBRC215@BAL0053.B-R.COM
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: vagarwal@dis9002.shearson.com (Virendra Agarwal)
Subject: Creating a new Newsgroup
Reply-To: vagarwal@tardis.shearson.com
Organization: Lehman Brothers
Distribution: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 20:40:27 GMT


Does anyone know the procedure to have a new NEWSGROUP created ?
If yes, can you E-mail and/or post it.


--
---------------------------------------------------------------
Virendra Agarwal
vagarwal@shearson.com
212-464-2151
Lehman Brothers
388 Greenwich st.(9th Flr.)
NewYork, NY 10013
---------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: vagarwal@dis9002.shearson.com (Virendra Agarwal)
Subject: Re: Queries on Career Choices
Reply-To: vagarwal@tardis.shearson.com
Organization: Lehman Brothers
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 19:02:49 GMT

In article <2708@cronos.metaphor.com> sanzgiri@bombay.metaphor.com (Ajit Sanzgiri) writes:
Path: shearson.com!uunet!nntp1.radiomail.net!cronos!bombay!sanzgiri
   From: sanzgiri@bombay.metaphor.com (Ajit Sanzgiri)
   Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
   Date: 6 Jan 93 18:42:45 GMT
   References: <7761@dove.nist.gov> <1id3o0INN33v@menudo.uh.edu>
   Sender: news@cronos.metaphor.com
   Organization: Metaphor Computer Systems, Mountain View, CA
   Lines: 18

   In article <1id3o0INN33v@menudo.uh.edu> mba2@Jane.UH.EDU writes:
   >>4. What draws so many IAs to "practical" professions in general?
   >>(By practical I mean Eng/Comp.Sci, Law, Medicine, Accounting, etc.)
   >>
   >Upbringing.  They realize that there is more stability in a "Professional"
   >occupation then in a "Non-Professional" one.  Also MONEY.  English majors/
   >Sociology majors /etc don't make as much unless they get M.S. or PhD's.
:	   Probably more so if they look "foreign". As an II parent of an IA
:	   kid, I feel my son would be better off training as a professional
:	   (whose value in society is less likely to be questioned) than say
:	   an actor, writer or fashion designer where he may find it difficult
:	   to be accepted. Though these are all honourable professions and I
:	   don't plan on forcing him into this or that career, I would certainly
:	   advise him to go into a professional occupation (if he seeks my
:	   advice, that is) and do what I can to encourage him in that direction.

:	   Ajit Sanzgiri

-------
  To be honest, non-europeans are better off being technically competent to survive in
  European dominated society. It is harder (but not impossible) to be in management
  or administrator or a generalist if you are NOT european. I have seen majority
  of non-european managers who are INEFFECTIVE in their position. They are either
  left on their own with no one reporting to them or their subordinates reporting 
  to their manager's boss directly bypassing them. Most of them are happy in that
  situation because at least they can brag about it among their community of their
  position. Again, it is not meant to be generalised.
--
---------------------------------------------------------------
Virendra Agarwal
vagarwal@shearson.com
212-464-2151
Lehman Brothers
388 Greenwich st.(9th Flr.)
NewYork, NY 10013
---------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: tyadav@athena.mit.edu (T.Y.)
Subject: Re: Indian software in the spotlight (Was Re: Pressure)
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 22:34:16 GMT

============================================
 amit@CS.Berkeley.EDU (Amit Gupta) writes:
>
>I do remember that the reading and studying was
>very concentrated... around exam time!! I do not remember many weekly
>homeworks, or reports. Grading was based on exams, usually 3 per course
>per semester. 
>
>Getting good grades was a high priority; learning, usually not.
>
>Of course, I can only talk of IIT Delhi, but I doubt if other IITs were 
>very different.

 I have had some first hand work experience with IIT-Madras grads 
 (one of them was perfect scorer on GRE, TOEFL etc.); IIT-Kanpur grads
 (one of them was a MechE 10.0/10.0 gpa); IIT-B grads etc..... 
 Many of them I met while they were summer interns at ICI India, Kanpur.

 I was really surprised in the beginning to see that their grades did
 not, at all, reflect their understanding or aptitude. As Amit points
 out, they seemed to be all (except one exception) the product of: "getting
 good grades was a high priority, learning usually not." One of them told me
 that there is too much grade orientation, grade sliming (plead the prof
 to make the "B" an "A" as it will jeopardise admission to good grad
 schools in USA)......!!!!!!! Many chose optional courses based on the ease
 with which they can get an "A." 

 Thats not all. GRE exam seems to be the next victim.
 IIT Madras seems to have its own advanced-GRE and GRE-key. It is unethical
 and forbidden by GRE board. But then, who cares. No wonder that IIT-M
 grads seem to have a high GRE score. Last I heard, other IIT grads were
 busy arranging similar keys. ( A key is a collection of hundreds of questions
 and answers that appeared on previous GRE exams.) The smartest is the one who
 can rote-memorise the most :(

 Here at MIT, I have volunteered to TA grad courses. And frankly, the past
 performance of incoming students (including IITians) has no correlation
 with the student's understanding/knowledge/aptitude/attitude. Marginal
 students from Taiwan, Sweden, Greece, Canada, Texas..... have turned out be
 the exceptional performers. In industry - both software and hard core shop 
 floor engg - individuals from "i never knew this college existed" turn out
 to be much better scientists/engrs than these global ivy league colleges.

 The only message that one can draw from all this is, perhaps:
    " Grades, Degrees and stuff like that are superficial surrogates to
      the measure of an individual's competence or intellectual maturity
      level."

 On a more general level the message is, perhaps:
    If you want to look for performance and potential, don't look for
    grades, degrees and union certificates. See the mind, the soul elsewhere.

T.Y.
----
tyadav@athena.mit.edu
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia)
Subject: Re: Indian software in the spotlight (Was Re: Pressure)
Organization: AT&T
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 23:16:38 GMT

In article <1993Jan9.223416.10869@athena.mit.edu>, tyadav@athena.mit.edu (T.Y.) writes:
>  - individuals from "i never knew this college existed" turn out
>  to be much better scientists/engrs than these global ivy league colleges.
> 
One reason for this is that "need of achievement" is reduced for the 
individuals who graduated from ivy league colleges. They have already
achieved high before they get to the industry. In industry they tend
to divert their attention to other things than technical stuff.
Subsequently they do not do as well as somebody from a remote unheard college
still trying to prove his/her technical competence.

For similar reasons the foreign students joining the industry do better
than the domestic ones. They tend to do well compared to domestic ones 
since they are trying to prove themselves as worthy to the organization. 
They have a higher 'need of achievement', subsequently they work harder,
do a lot of networking and ask around the best ways to go up in the
organization etc. Many of them indeed go up in the ladder. Many MITians
are then reporting to them :-)

>  The only message that one can draw from all this is, perhaps:
>     " Grades, Degrees and stuff like that are superficial surrogates to
>       the measure of an individual's competence or intellectual maturity
>       level."
> 

I agree in principle but I would also add Schools to this list.

" Schools, Grades, Degrees and stuff like that are superficial surrogates to
the measure of an individual's competence or intellectual maturity
level."


>  On a more general level the message is, perhaps:
>     If you want to look for performance and potential, don't look for
>     grades, degrees and union certificates. See the mind, the soul elsewhere.
> 

I would rather say:

"If you want to look for performance and potential, don't look for
school, grades, degrees and union certificates.
See the actual work done and evaluate its value to the organization."

Alok
Xref: sparky alt.culture.us.asian-indian:1681 alt.individualism:6178
From: tyadav@athena.mit.edu (T.Y.)
Subject: Re: = Opportunity etc.
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 23:02:11 GMT

============================================
 mvij@ocf.berkeley.edu (Manish Vij) writes:
>
>I am not arguing about specific implementations.  Yes, means tests are faulty.
>Yes, welfare currently provides the wrong incentives.  But to reject the war
>on poverty because of faulty methodology is akin to banning the Salvation
>Army because it has excess overhead.

 Manish, I am NOT rejecting anyone's right to fight poverty.
 But then, I am NOT accepting anyone's right/duty/obligation to fight anything.
 You and every one who thinks "war on poverty" is important - should do
 what you want to and think is right. But, please remember two things:

  [1] Do it with your own time AND money. Don't impose your own sense of
      morality on me and others who differ from you. The present "so called
      war on poverty" is fought with "tax dollars" - which indirectly forces
      individuals like me to pay for wars/purposes I do not want to fight.
      Go with charity groups - like salvation army etc.

  [2] I do not accept to fight any battle other than my own. I am, for
      myself, the purpose of my existence. These "moral" claims of other's
      over me and my mind are not right or just. Live your own life, and let
      me live my own - each with one's own standards and values. If I feel
      like helping or assisting someone, I will - as I have done many times
      in my life as a volunteer. Neither you nor the govt nor some religious
      order has any right to force or tell me what I should do - regardless of
      the cause. In other words let me enjoy my right to myself.

 You may say that this has nothing to do with "war on poverty." But, sadly it
 does. Where does the funding for all these "socialized war on this/that"
 come from? - Taxes, more taxes. I and many of my friends do not pay taxes
 because of charity and altruism; we pay because of the threat that the state
 holds against tax-offenders: jail. You may also say, that these "socialized
 war on this/that" is in the individual's interest. But, see - "you are
 defining for the individual what his/her interest is," aren't you?

 Do whatever you want to do. But, please, let me do what I want to.
 Thank you.

>Do you or do you not support the PRINCIPLE of helping the poor?  With cash,
>with job training, with food and blankets?
> Manish

 I support your and my and everyone's "CHOICE to do whatever each feels like."
 I do not support "altruism by force - govt/religion sponsored or otherwise."

T.Y.
----
tyadav@athena.mit.edu
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian,alt.individualism
From: mba2@Jane.UH.EDU (Puneet_S)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: Pressure
Date: 5 Jan 1993 22:33:45 GMT
Organization: University of Houston
Reply-To: mba2@Jane.UH.EDU
NNTP-Posting-Host: jane.uh.edu

>>Subject:	Societal /Parental Pressure placed on young children
>>		in our culture to attain "greatness"
>>
>>Question:	Is our culture /parental pressure too demanding of
>>		our children to succeed? 
>
> With all this discussion of being american / being indian / being global
> and being just yourself (tm).... it would help if the "our" in "our
> culture" was bit more specific. :)
>
> Contextually, it seems you are talking about indian culture...?

P.	I was referring to my Uncles and Auntis who are pressuring their
	sons and daughters to get out of high school early, go to medical
	school and get married.  I refer to II or IA.  I think here there
	is no line between IA and II parents.
	
_______________________________________________________________________________
TOYS
Puneet

                                                         MBA2@JETSON.UH.EDU   or
                                                         BBRC215@BAL0053.B-R.COM
From: hira@cme.nist.gov (Ron Hira)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: Indian software in the spotlight (Was Re: Pressure)
Date: 11 Jan 93 22:10:56 GMT
Reply-To: hira@cme.nist.gov
Organization: National Institute of Standards and Technology

In article <1993Jan8.233621.7703@cbnewsi.cb.att.com>, alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia) writes:
|> From: alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia)
|> Subject: Re: Indian software in the spotlight (Was Re: Pressure)

[Bunch of stuff on IITs deleted]

|> The education in India is more theoretical in nature even at IIT's.
|> The education in US has a better balance between theory and application of
|> theory.

Interesting. I think that US engineering education is far too weighted
towards the theoretical and not enough towards application. The class
sizes are generally too large, and labs are either few or don't make a 
lot of sense in the context of the course. This is particularly true
of the undergraduate courses IMO. Not everyone who studies engineering
plans on continuing on for a PhD, but that's who we have teaching those 
undergrad courses. 

Do you think that most profs enjoy teaching at the undergrad level? 
How many of those profs have actually built or designed a real world 
project? How much time as an engineer do you spend solving differential 
equations?

As both a former student and teacher, I'm curious to find out what
others think.

Ron
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: vagarwal@dis9002.shearson.com (Virendra Agarwal)
Subject: Re: being asian-indian/american
Reply-To: vagarwal@tardis.shearson.com
Organization: Lehman Brothers
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 21:13:50 GMT

In article <1993Jan4.222634.20309@athena.mit.edu> tyadav@athena.mit.edu (T.Y.) writes:

   Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Path: shearson.com!uunet!enterpoop.mit.edu!senator-bedfellow.mit.edu!bloom-picayune.mit.edu!athena.mit.edu!tyadav
   From: tyadav@athena.mit.edu (T.Y.)
   Sender: news@athena.mit.edu (News system)
   Nntp-Posting-Host: m66-070-5.mit.edu
   Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
   Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 22:26:34 GMT
   Lines: 22

   =====================================
    vagarwal@tardis.shearson.com writes:
   >
   >Why do you see European as ONE SINGLE RACE not as
   >German,French,British,Irish,Italian,Swedish.....
   >when you SEE NON-Europeans as Japanese,Chinese,Indian,Pakistani .... ?

>>    I don't "see" all this. I do find it convenient to write my thoughts with
    concepts........... That is the distinction is all contextual to our
    discussion and done for our discussion's convenience.

    It will be tough, wouldn't you agree, if everytime I have to write
    about Indians - I have to count all the diverse groups and tribes that
    live in that part of the earth: Kannada, Tamil, Telugu, Assamese,
    Bengali, Oriya, Gujrati, Marathi, Punjabi, Garwahli....gee, the content
    will soon get lost, isn't it? And then, we should add if it is 
    asian indian (or to keep PREETI happy - south asian :) ), or is it
    east/west indian, or is it............hmmmmmmm.........

   T.Y.
   ----
   tyadav@athena.mit.edu

--------------
Then DON'T SEE it. I was only commenting to your reference to Japanese/Chinese
in your post not accepting the Germans,British,Italians.. etc.
--
---------------------------------------------------------------
Virendra Agarwal
vagarwal@shearson.com
212-464-2151
Lehman Brothers
388 Greenwich st.(9th Flr.)
NewYork, NY 10013
---------------------------------------------------------------