HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: nabeel@sce.carleton.ca (Nabeel Ghuzlaan)
Subject: Re: Arab U N I T Y
Organization: Carleton University
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 21:25:12 GMT

In <1992Nov19.030746.11195@galileo.cc.rochester.edu> abde@troi.cc.rochester.edu (Tamer A. Abdelgawad) writes:

" O.k., so we form the Muslim State, and elect a president (an Egyptian, most
" likely.. 55 million and counting..).  What powers do you propose to give
" that president?  Give him an army? probably not.  Give him the power to
" conduct foreign policy? again probably not.  Give him the power to conduct
" economic policy? The Saudis, Kuwaitis, Libyans and others will scream so
" loud he won't hear himself speak!  Strip away these powers, and you end up
" with a mish-mash of the Arab League and the Organization for Islamic unity.
" But we already have these.

   The power of a Pres is similar to that of Abu Bakr, Omar, etc. (raa). It
is not the same power of the current secretary general of the AL. I don't
think Lybians and others will scream louder than they already are doing.

" This is not why a union based on equality is out of the question.  It is
" out of the question because the countries entering into that union *are*
" unequal (in the Economic, not the monkey/donkey sense).  No sane Saudi
" citizen would want a union with Egypt that would allow Egyptians free 
" access

   Believe me, it is the donkey/monkey sense. Did the Saudis gain anything
by their intellect, hardwork or power? Remember that Muslims in Medina
(raa) shared what they _earned_.

" to Saudi labor markets.  Remember Ross Perot's "giant sucking sound"?
" The Europeans can do it because they are mostly in similar stages of 
" development and enjoy similar standards of living (the situation in
" Europe is exactly the reverse: the rich countries, like Germany, England
" France, Italy,..etc. are the *large* economies, and they can afford to
" accomodate the smaller poorer economies)

   Instead of Saudi and other money running America, Europe, Israel,
and every enemy of Islam, it is more right to run other Arab/Muslim 
countries.

   We are discussing the practical feasibility of such a union. If we
are Muslims, it is not up to us to chose a union or not. Koran, Hadith
and Islam mandate such a unity. If there are some/many differences they
must be worked out.

" Tamer Abdelgawad
From: oueichek@imag.fr (Ibaa Oueichek)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: Oct 1973: Yom Kippur War (To Husam)
Date: 16 Nov 92 15:46:03 GMT
Organization: IMAG Institute, University of Grenoble, France
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

Moataz R Eldib (eldibmr@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu) wrote:
: In article <1992Nov12.064735.27720@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>  
: carasso@Turing.ORG (Roger Carasso) writes:
: 
: > Israel attack was not unprovoked.  On May 22, 1967 Nasser blocked the
: > Gulf of Aqaba cutting off Israeli port of Eilat, breaking
: > International Law.  The same week the Ba'ath Party seized power in
: > Syria and opened a new campaign of terrorism against Israel, while the
: > Syrian Army Shelled Israeli villiages in the Golan.  On May 15,
: > Egyptian forces rolled into the Sinai (In 1957 Egypt agreeed to
: > demilitarize the Sinai).  On May 17, Cairo Radio's Voice of the Arabs
: > proclaimed: "All Egypt is now prepared to plunge into a total war
: > which will put an end to Israel. "  Other quopets from Nasser that
: > persuaded Israel that an attack was immenent and that a pre-emptive
: > > If you call that unprovoked, then you're fucking on drugs.  If Israel
: > wanted more land they wouldn't have given up the Sinai or territories
: > beyond the Golan that it took in 67.  They want peace, and the sooner
: > the Arabs recognize ISrael's right to Exist, the sooner they can have
: > their land back.
: > 
: > 
: > roger
: 
: 	You seem to have a very short and selective memeory of History.
: 	In the 1950's, leading up to the Suez crisis, Ben-Gurion ordered 
: 	an unprovoked attack against Egypt, with the express purpose of  
: 	baiting Nasser and Egypt into a military confrontation.
  What also about that 1956 attak against Egypt ?. Didn't Israel act as
an agent for France and England and launched a completely unprovoked attack
against Egypt ?.
Xref: sparky soc.culture.arabic:5065 soc.culture.pakistan:17035
From: faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris)
Subject: Re: Oct 1973: Yom Kippur War (To Husam)
Reply-To: a.Faris@trl.oz.au 
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne,Australia
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 00:24:51 GMT

In article <1992Nov11.023857.28867@nysernet.org>, astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:
|> faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris) writes:
|> 
|> >If Israel had a choice,...
|> 
|> But they didn't.

Absolutely wrong, they did. To this day Israel claims it is in South Lebanon
for its own security, at the same time it is stealing the Lebanese water
and continues to undermine Lebanon so that you continue to steal their water.

|> 
|> > I wonder why they have chosen to paint such a grim
|> >picture of the Arabs and their culture so that the west feels a pitty for
|> >Israel and make the Arabs look like warmongers.
|> 
|> Israel didn't paint that picture, and the Arabs have acted like warmongers.
|> -- 
|> Alan H. Stein   -----  AJIN   -----  astein@israel.nysernet.org

The Israeli made a movie about the bombing of flight PAN AM 103 with Jewish
actors and propably Jewish funds, yet no one knows who did it.

The Arabs did not make that movie, however, those Jewish actors looked like
Arabs, indeed we must be related.

A.Faris
From: bashar@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Bashar Khairi Abouseido)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: PALESTINIANS .. (Roger)
Date: 19 Nov 1992 01:10:57 GMT
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.4
Originator: bashar@csd4.csd.uwm.edu

->From news Wed Nov 18 18:48:45 1992
->From: carasso@Turing.ORG (Roger Carasso)
->Subject: Re: PALESTINIANS
->
->
->It might in that if the palestinians have no racial or cultural
->differences to arabs in general, then the need to preserve their
->identity becomes non-existent.
->
So according to what you have said, the need to preserve an identity
for the syrians, egyptions, kuwaitis, tunisians .... etc  are 
NON-existent also. 
 
->
->90% of Israel proper was *bought* by Israel.  Further, of that 90%,
->70% was from large Arab land owners.  Further I don't know why you
->think it is Arab land..  It was Jewish land 1900 years ago, and
->turkish, and british, and others.
->
WHAT **** BOUGHT ***** !!!!!!!????? who says that ????!!!!
You meant stolen by force, At least from my family in JAFA. 
Our certificate indicates our ownership to the property that 
they owned before 1947 in Israel still exist and my parents have it. 
And it is arab land ? simply because the arab poeple were living 
there when the Israeli army expelled them from it.
    

-> [...]
->right?  I mean what does it mean for the land to be jewish land or
->arab land.  Land is land and whomever can control it for the time has
->it.  I mean ultimately that is the way it will be, always.  
->
Oh ... NICE IDEA ... what next then ? what will be next for Israel
to control and to have according to your idea of ownership ???
Syria ... Jordan ... Lebanon !!!! what next ????? 

->My basic understanding is that there is plenty of arab land and no
->jewish land, aside from israel.  I hope you see why jews feel a need

WHY No jewish land !!!!! how about the muslims and the christians then ?

->for a land of their own.  I hope you also understand that palestine up
->until 1947 was defied as israel + transjordan (jordan).  Why can't
->jordan be the palestinian state.  It's population is 2/3 palestinian?

And why can't Israel be the Paletinian state if this is your argument ?

->Aren't the palestinian's upset at king hussain?  You talk about
->apartheid.  He's a british transplant from the royal family of saudi
->arabia.
->
I think this is non of your bussiness. This issue belongs to the poeple
who lives in Jordan and the Jordanians only.

->
->roger
->
->

      
-- 
University Of Wisconsin Milwaukee____        ____
Computing Services Division     /   /       /   /       Computer Science
bashar@csd4.csd.uwm.edu        /---/       /__ /   bashar@miller.cs.uwm.edu
bashar@convex.csd.uwm.edu     /___/ashar  /   /bouseido
From: cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
Subject: RE: Arab  U N I T Y
Date: 19 Nov 1992 15:13:05 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu



abde@troi.cc.rochester.edu (Tamer A. Abdelgawad), i.e. Mr. "Orang Goose" writes:
(Orang Goose: his way, Orange Juice: my way)

>I was going to respond by saying: "I pronounce my name AbdelGawad, my parents
>pronounce my name AbdelGawad,  all my friends in Egypt call me AbdelGawad, and
>every Arab, Muslim, Christian, Jew and Bhuddist I know call me AbdelGawad! So
>why should I listen to a presumptuous idiot like you telling me I am not a
>true Muslim?"  but then I thought, it's not worth it.

Gawad is a bad word.  However Jawad is not.  People like you who are
pro EGption slangs are screwing up the Arabic language.  I was once in
Egypt and watched a T.V. commerical about shaving cream.  And the guy
on the commercial said what is translated to English "four reasons."
"four reasons" are said in Arabic as "arba' asbab".  Now, an EGiption
like you say a "z" whenver there is an "s".  So, "arba' asbab" becomes
"arba' a*bab".

>Are you aware how different Muslims in Russia are from Muslims in Egypt, and
>how different those are from Muslims in Morrocco, or the USA?  Are you aware
>how different Sunni and Shi'aa are?  Can you imagine the Pan-Muslim congress:
>"The distinguished gentleman Mr. Gamal Gouda can now speak"
>"Jamal Jouda you westernized infidel! Why I oughta'..."
>We are simply too different.

Are you aware of how complicated arab problems were before Islam came into
existence?  Are you aware that Tarmzi, Bokhari, Ibin Sina', Khoarmzi, etc
are people who are not arabs, they came from the so-called now former USSR?
Are you aware of Islamic history?  Are you aware of how ignorant you are?

>P.S.  I thought Egyptians spoke Arabic since the days of the pharoahs, at
>      least that's what they show on T.V.!  But wait, in the Ten Commandments
>      they were speaking English, and so were the Jews.... Now I'm confused ;)

That's how ignorant and idiot you are.  You make me wonder if you're an EGiption
after all.  At the time of Moses, Egyptians were speaking the so-called now the
Hieroglyphics language and Jews spoke Hebrew, the language of Joseph and Jacob
who moved from Palestine to live in Egypt.  The ten commendmants came to Moses
in Hebrew (old testament), and later they were translated into English.
-- 
                  ___________________ cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu _____________
                 (______   _  |   _  |_
_____ H A M Z A ________) |-| |_ |-| | |
From: nadeem@igpho (Nadeem Malik)
Subject: Re: Review of translations of the Qur'an
Organization: Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH), Zurich, CH
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 19:34:30 GMT

mmdh@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (Mazen Mokhtar) writes:
:  
: Assalamu `alaykum,
:  
:   The following is a summary of a review of different Qur'an translations.
: Aside from my comments in brackets, all the information is paraphrased from an
: article by A. R. Kidway "Translating the Untranslatable: A Survey of English
: Translations of the Qur'an" reprinted from "The Muslim World Book Review"
: Vol. 7 No. 4 Summer 1987.
:  
:  
[deletions]
:  
:   Translations by Qadiyanis:
:  
:   - Muhammad Ali "The Holy Qur'an: English Translation" 1917: Mistranslated
:     several verses to conform to Qadiyani views regarding the Messiah for
:     example.
:   - Sher Ali "The Holy Qur'an: Arabic Text with English Translation" 1955:
:   - Zafarullah Khan "The Qur'an: Arabioc Test and English Translation" 1970
:   - Kamaluddin and Nazir Ahmad "A Running Commentary of the Holy Qur'an" 1948
:   - Salahuddin Peer "The Wonderful Koran" 1960
:   - Malik Ghulam Farid "The Holy Qur'an" 1962
:   - Khadim Rahman Nuri "The Running Commentary of the Holy Qur'an with
:     under-bracket comments" 1964
:   - Firozuddin Ruhi "The Qur'an" 1965
:  
:     Each of the above mistranslates certain verses to conform to Qadiyani
:     views. Verses describing the Messiah or the finality of prophethood are
:     especially likelely to be mistranslated.

Typical Mullahish propaganda! Actually, two of these translations have received
very high aclaim in all Muslim cirlces: Muhammad Ali's translation is said
to be outstanding of its generation, and Maulana Sher Ali's trnaslation is
simply brilliant -- the ellegance is superb.

You must remember that it is not really possible to 'mis-translate' the 
Quran -- there are too many existing translation and too many Arabic
scholars for a false translation to be made. What I suspect is ment in the
above paragraph is that Ahmadis interpretation of some verses is diffrent
to others. But, then, from Ahmadis point of view the other Sunni or Shia
have mis-translated to suit their purposes. You see, there is a refelctional
symmetry in these arguments!
:  
:  
[deletions]
:  
:   May Allah guide us to a proper understanding of His book.
:  
:  
: Assalamu `alaykum,
:  
: Mazen Mokhtar
:  
Nadeem Malik, nadeem@p.igp.ethz.ch
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
From: mike@vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at (Michael Gschwind)
Subject: Re: Palestine
Organization: Vienna University of Technology
	<BD.92Oct22090603@fluent.UUCP> <1992Oct27.033235.1914@nysernet.org>
	<MIKE.92Nov7015959@guam.vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at>
	<1992Nov9.005304.1390@nysernet.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 00:00:58 GMT

In article <1992Nov9.005304.1390@nysernet.org> astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:
   >Why should the Palestinians give up part of their territory?

   You are making an unwarranted assumption--that parts of Eretz Yisrael
   are Arab territory.  At this point, they are unallocated portions of
   Britain's Palestine Mandate, with their final status up in the air
   until an agreement is reached.

Britain's Palestine Mandate was Arab territory, occupied by a European
power (not that I have any particular misgivings about European states
as colonial power [no, I won't even support an 'apology' for the
discovery of America ;], but it's not as if we (the Europeans) had
occupied uninhabited desert ...) - and the final status should have
been self-determination... care for a simulated referendum, say for
1917, 1925, ... - majority for an Arab state, no Eretz Something
anywhere ...

mike
--

Michael Gschwind, Dept. of VLSI-Design, Vienna University of Technology
mike@vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at	(*) BOZO is a registered 
(currently somewhere in             trademark of Bush/Quayle 92
the Bay Area, back sometime     (*) UNIX is a registered 
at the end of this year)	    trademark of AT&T
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: Oct 1973: Yom Kippur War (To Husam)
Date: 17 Nov 92 13:16:18 GMT
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.

faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris) writes:

>Absolutely wrong, they did. To this day Israel claims it is in South Lebanon
>for its own security, at the same time it is stealing the Lebanese water
>and continues to undermine Lebanon so that you continue to steal their water.

It's easy to make such unsubstantiated charges.

>|> > I wonder why they have chosen to paint such a grim
>|> >picture of the Arabs and their culture so that the west feels a pitty for
>|> >Israel and make the Arabs look like warmongers.
>|> 
>|> Israel didn't paint that picture, and the Arabs have acted like warmongers.

>The Israeli made a movie about the bombing of flight PAN AM 103 with Jewish
>actors and propably Jewish funds, yet no one knows who did it.

I don't think anyone but you doubts that Arab terrorists did it.

>The Arabs did not make that movie, however, those Jewish actors looked like
>Arabs, indeed we must be related.

Is that why we fight so much?


-- 
Alan H. Stein   -----  AJIN   -----  astein@israel.nysernet.org
Xref: sparky soc.culture.arabic:4991 soc.culture.lebanon:5105
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.lebanon
Subject: Re: ARAB UNITY (really taxes on non-Moslems)
Date: 19 Nov 92 04:50:23 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.arabic
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver


My apologies if this was mentioned before, but non-Muslims paid
taxes for military protection, under Islamic governments who
were obligated to protect them under Islamic law.  This is even
practiced in non-Muslim countries and to date, so I do not
understand what the problem is.

I am not an expert at all on the situation, but I think this
is an important factor in understanding taxation as implemented
on the dhimmi system at that time.  I have the understanding
from several of these posters that this was used as a measure of
oppression on non-Muslims and/or for conversion as a way out of
not paying the taxes.  Even if there were events in history and
leaders who were exemplify or uphold the standards of a pure Islamic
state, it is not a justification that this is Islamic law.  There
still is a lot of misunderstandings and misconceptions concerning
this (and other things), and I am not sure that anyone can explain it
in a way that will is suitable and acceptable to non-Muslims on this
and other forums.

Anisa
From: mike@vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at (Michael Gschwind)
Subject: Re: Israel Apartheid????
Organization: Vienna University of Technology
	<1992Nov10.203328.5784@island.COM>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 00:21:00 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.203328.5784@island.COM> green@island.COM (Robert Greenstein) writes:

   Did you not read the entire statement, or do you just enjoy taking things
   out of context? He said no country in the world just lets anyone come in.
   DOes that not apply to the Arab nations? I would have a hard time even
   visiting Saudi Arabia for example, let alone become a resident. Suppose
Discrimiantion in Saudi Arabia - I don't think it's even worth
discussing about - it's self-evident, and Saudi Arabia has never tried
to 'market' itself as a Democratic society - nor does any other Gulf
state, I think. Except of course when George Bush had to restore 
'democracy' (to observers of Middle East politics also know by its
Kuwaiti name 'al-Sabah' (sarcasm intended, PLEASE do NOT send me 15MB
of mail telling me that 'al-Sabah' does not mean democracy in
Arabic!!!! - some people on this list occasionally have a problem with
sarcasm... ;)).
   I visit Israel. I might as well throw my passport away and start over,
   because I would be prohibited from many of the countries in the Middle East.
You can apply for a second passport from the State Dept., your
reasoning is sufficient for them (same holds for South African visas,
they used to put them on a removable sheet in the RSA - no longer so)

   It may not be valid to talk about how Jews were treated in Germany in the
   context of the Middle East, but it is most certainly valid to discuss how
   Jews are treated in Arab countries. It ain't pretty.
Depends on the country - historically, Muslims have treated the Jews
better than have the Christians, I have to observer though - many Jews
from Spain fled to Fez, for example ...

mike
--

Michael Gschwind, Dept. of VLSI-Design, Vienna University of Technology
mike@vlsivie.tuwien.ac.at	(*) BOZO is a registered 
(currently somewhere in             trademark of Bush/Quayle 92
the Bay Area, back sometime     (*) UNIX is a registered 
at the end of this year)	    trademark of AT&T
     
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
From: nabeel@sce.carleton.ca (Nabeel(Bulbul))
Subject: Re: Arab U N I T Y Flames by Abdelgawad and Salah
Organization: Carleton University
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 21:36:53 GMT

In <1egau1INNk87@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah) writes:

" abde@troi.cc.rochester.edu (Tamer A. Abdelgawad), i.e. Mr. "Orang Goose" writes:
" (Orang Goose: his way, Orange Juice: my way)

" >I was going to respond by saying: "I pronounce my name AbdelGawad, my parents
" >pronounce my name AbdelGawad,  all my friends in Egypt call me AbdelGawad, and
" >every Arab, Muslim, Christian, Jew and Bhuddist I know call me AbdelGawad! So
" >why should I listen to a presumptuous idiot like you telling me I am not a
" >true Muslim?"  but then I thought, it's not worth it.

   If that was true, you would have erased that gibberish. Do you know why Egyptians call you Abdelgawad? Because they can't do better than that. Do you 
know why nonEgyptians call you Abdelgawad? Because you told them so, so how 
genius of you to use this excuse! We, nonEgyptians, spell our names as they
originally must be pronounced. So if someone is called "gasim" or "asim" in 
Jordan, he spells his name in Arabic "qasim" not "ghasim", "asim" or whatever,
and he spells it in English "Qasim" or "Kasim" because of the lack of "qaf" in
English.

   I did not see any "presumptuous idiocy" on Hamaza's part, but he might have
made a mistake. You could have replied by the way your parents taught you or
did you? 

" >P.S.  I thought Egyptians spoke Arabic since the days of the pharoahs, at
" >      least that's what they show on T.V.!  But wait, in the Ten Commandments
" >      they were speaking English, and so were the Jews.... Now I'm confused ;)

   Are you serious or treating us as geniuses of the kind you are? I am really
confused here.

" That's how ignorant and idiot you are.  You make me wonder if you're an 
" EGiption after all.

   And, Hamaza, you could have done better than this.
   
   I think this exchange of flames (in my presence) is of no reason. I am
tingling all over and can hardly restrain myself. (^aLamnAhom iSH.hAdeh
sabagOna ^a libwAb!)


** wa lA tanAbazO bil'alqAbi bi'sa lismo lfosOqo ba^da l'ImAni.
From: universe99@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Been To Palestine Lately???
Date: 23 Nov 92 14:56:30 CST
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

Assalam Aleikum

I. Have any of you been to Palestine lately?  I am interested in hearing your 
impressions/insights of what you saw and experienced.  I was home this summer
for two and a half months for the first time in four years.  I left Bethlehem
only a couple of months after the intifada to study here in the US, and was not
able to go back until this past summer.  I was shoked by many things and 
impressed by many others.  I am interested in hearing what you think.

II. If you are from Bethlehem, I would like to hear from you, who knows
we might know each other or know a common friend. 

III. While in Bethlehem, I heard a priest quote a study that said that the
percent of Christians who live in Palestine has dropped to an all time low of
2.5%.  Does anyone know whether this estimate is correct?  This is particularly
disturbing to hear/know, especially for a person from Bethlehem.  At this 
decline rate it won't be too long before our sacred Christian churches become 
musuems cattering to curious tourists rather than to a faithful community. Does
this alarm you?  I am very concerend that the arabic Christian culture might 
one day become a reminent of the past.  Our Christian Arabic tradition is very
unique and rich and ought, in my opinion, be preserved--in Palestine and abroad!
Any response??



Ciao,

PEACE!!

Jamal C. Saeh
Theoretical Chemistry graduate student
Kansas University
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic