HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.qualrs-l
Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 22:25:44 PDT
              <QUALRS-L@UGA.BITNET>
From:         rotha@SFU.CA
Subject:      re: one upon a time
Comments: To: qualrs-l@uga.cc.uga.edu

Jean & Tom:

It appears to me that the problem with the typologies is one of
reductionism.  If you remember the reserch that, I think it was Bruner
did on concept identification and the difficulties at the boundaries
between concepts.  Well, the concepts they used were fairly simple
such as cup, mug, etc.  Now, to reduce all the beliefs that Ernst has
to the simple label of radical constructivism ccreates problems very
quickly, as soon as someone else identifies herself with von
Glasersfeld's ideas.  Because of her own constructions, the two can
never be the same so that you use the term radicl constructivism for
two different philosophical conceptions.  You could say, well we take
the key issues as shared.  But then I retorque with, "where so you
draw the line."  I guess, it is for this reason that the many isms
proliferate to such an extend, because all these people ultimately
construct differences between their own and already existing
epistemologies.--Tom, science and math educators are almost
exclusively referencing Ernst; besides my own occasional references to
goodman's work I haven't seen any other.  Also, I would see Guba &
Lincoln's constructivism very close to Ernst von Glasersfeld's.  I
think they could agree on many issues.

I guess, whenever you use a label, you are glossing a fairly comlex
set of beliefs.  These glosses are as far from describing this set as
the correlation between short term memory and science achievement does
when I am trying to facilitate the learning in my physics classroom (I
have done, many moons ago that sort of research.  Luckily I went back
to the classroom and found this research useless.)

To sum up, the quest for clarity might be ill-fated: The clearer
concepts get the more dull they are and the less they describe.  The
generativity of concepts (including isms) lies in their fuzzyness.

Michael


PS: Good to see you on the list, Gary and Don.  As you see, I have
started my new position (and I have a research semester, so no
teaching this fall).
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Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 09:46:01 EST
              <QUALRS-L@UGA.BITNET>
From:         "Richard Wilk, Anthropology, 855-8162" <WILKR@UCS.INDIANA.EDU>
Subject:      RE: qualitative sociology and environmental studies

There has been a lot of anthropological research
in recent years on cultural perceptions of the
environment. It ranges from the quantitative study
of how people classify and name biota to the most
qualitative exegesis of religious concepts and the
concept of nature in cultures. Brent Berlin is the name
most clearly associated with the former, and I suppose
Victor Turner might be with the latter. There is also
now a lot in applied anthropology on how people manage
their environment, how they build sustainable systems, and
what is responsible for breaking down that stability.
One of my students has an excellent bibliography which
she put together for her comprehensive exams at Michigan,
prior to beginning fieldwork on environmental perceptions
and conservation in a tropical rainforest. Her name is
Melissa Johnson, and her email address is 6ynv@umichub.
She could probably send you a copy.

Rick Wilk
~r
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Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 16:40:30 -0400
Reply-To:     aa248@yfn.ysu.edu
              <QUALRS-L@UGA.BITNET>
From:         Nicholas Sturm <aa248@YFN.YSU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Double postings

>
>Is anyone else receiving double postings from QUALRS-L,
>the first as per _normal_ and the second with _excessive_
>header listings?
>
>rwilson@educ.ucalgary.ca
>
>
Yes.

--
Nicholas Sturm, 4037 Ward Beecher, 410 Wick Ave., Youngstown, Ohio 44555
  * aa248@yfn.ysu.edu *
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Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 10:26:00 CDT
              <QUALRS-L@UGA.BITNET>
From:         P40RTS1@NIU.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Realism=Positivism???

Jean,

Would you answer on the network please?  I'd be interested
in hearing your response as well.  Thanks.

Rene Stofflett
P40rts1@niu
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Date:         Sat, 22 Aug 1992 10:37:00 CDT
              <QUALRS-L@UGA.BITNET>
From:         Gary Shank <P30GDS1@NIU.BITNET>
Subject:      meaning to whom?

Good question, about if things mean something independently of an
act of assigning meaning to them, then is there really no 'whom'
when we talk of meaning?  or something like that...
'meaning' is another one of those terms which have been re-defined
in a totally nominalistic way.  for a semiotician, the idea of
meaning is one of possible intelligibility.  so, we can say things
like 'what does the solar system mean?' and paraphrase it to some-
thing like 'what pre-existing intelligibiity can i discover in the
solar system, where i realize that my act of discovery is totally
hypothetical, and what intelligibility do i have to create out of my
own stance to help me discover other modes of intelligibility?'
for the nominalist, the question is paraphrased as 'what sort of
intelligibility should i construct about the solar system, since it
obviously doesnt mean anything until i or someone else decides what
it means from our stances.'
notice that the semiotician assumes that meaning is the set of clues
that an experience exhibits that helps us understand the nature of
reality, and we assume that reality is intelligible *on its own
terms.* by that, we mean that one of the criteria for the cohesive
structuring of reality is *not* that reality must make direct and
total and immediate sense to a set of beings who dwell upon the
third planet of a peripheral star in the milk way galaxy.  to say
that we create reality is hubris beyond possible presumption.  to
whom does something mean, then?  to the system as a whole.  certain-
ly not directly and always to us.  we do construct hypothetical
patterns of meaning to create approximations of reality, but we do
so in reference to the greater pattern of intelligibility.
sorry to sound so much like star trek, but i think you see what i
mean....  gary
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Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 15:34:10 EDT
              <QUALRS-L@UGA.BITNET>
From:         SED91LN@BUACCA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: once upon a time....

Jean: Maybe the idea of a typology for all or even a large number of
the concepts/approaches/perspectives you mentioned is wrongheaded. To
be sure, nice, neat Linnean-type typoplogies are comfortable and they
sometimes are useful when the domain they attempt to cover is not
human-created. But when one contemplates placing approaches to
research which arise from sociology, psychology, linguistics, anthro
pology, etc. into a single framework for comparison, the mind boggles.
Even in linguistics, where researchers used to think there were fairly
neat boundaries and maybe even a hierarchy relating different concepts,
has given up the idea. Perhaps what would be more useful than a
typology is a set of dimensions along which some of these concepts
could be placed--sort of like an n-dimensional space, where each concept
could have a location.

Bruce Fraser
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Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 13:59:00 EDT
              <QUALRS-L@UGA.BITNET>
From:         ERMEL STEPP <M034050@MARSHALL.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Other qualitative research networks

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Message Received:

...

I would be very interested in knowing what other resources connections
are available because Qualrs-l has been both helpful and inspiring.

Todd Jennings
JENNINGT@CLARGRAD
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Reply:

To get a BITNET listing of lists send the following message
from your system prompt:

send listserv@bitnic list global

                          Ermel

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Dr. Ermel Stepp           Internet m034050@marshall.wvnet.edu
Educational Admin.        BITNET   m034050@marshall
Marshall University       FAX      (304) 696-6565
Huntington, WV 25755      VOICE    (304) 696-2946
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Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 20:12:00 EST
              <QUALRS-L@UGA.BITNET>
From:         PMASCARO@PITTVMS.BITNET
Subject:      Re: availability of list archives

Jon
hn, the address to access archives is: in5
%"listserv@uga".  t
The message
is:  get qualrs-l (filename).

the

The filenames are made up of the year and the month.  th

Log9206, for example,
means that this is the log for the month of June 1992.  Thus, if you are
requesting the log, your message should look like this:

        get qualrs-l log9206

I am in the process of getting the logs and generally can get only one
per request.  Requesting two at the same time exceeds quoa
ta.  good luck.
pam
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center
Date: Wednesday, 19 Aug 1992 13:34:31 EDT
From: <JEDLC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.qualrs-l
Subject:    availability of list archives

I would like to obtain the archives for this group over the past several
months.  Does anyone know what site(s), if any, are maintaining the
archives? Please respond directly to me.

  Thank you

John E. Dono                        (212) 960 - 8336
Academic Computer Center            Bitnet: jedlc@cunyvm
B21 Carman Hall                     Internet: jedlc@cunyvm.cuny.edu
Lehman College
The City Unversity of New York
Bedford Park Boulevard West
Bronx, New York 10468

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Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 23:16:41 CDT
              <QUALRS-L@UGA.BITNET>
From:         "jean kantambu latting" <SOCW9V@UHUPVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: long-winded answer to jean

On Fri, 21 Aug 1992 21:05:00 CDT Gary Shank said:
>In summary, the simplification move is not to categorize.  That is
>actually a nominal move.  Instead, it is to make a decision.  Do
>things in the world mean things independently of the act of assign-
>ing meanign to them?  If you say 'no,' then you are a nominalist,
>and you have to then decide between realism2 and idealism.  If you
>say 'yes' then welcome to the semiotic camp....

Gary, I am considering what you said.  I have to understand something
first. When you say "do things in the
world mean things independently....", I want to know, meaning to whom?

If there is no "whom" in the response, then I want to know what you
mean by the word "meaning."

Jean
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Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 21:23:00 EST
              <QUALRS-L@UGA.BITNET>
From:         C_DICKER@FAUVAX.BITNET
Subject:      Gracie Essay

In my search for exotic descriptions of classrooms, somebody referred
me to a piece by Gracie entitled "Kindergarten as Academic Boot Camp"
in Down to Earth Sociology.  Our research person came up with the
third edition of this book- and the article wasn't in it.  Does
anybody know where one can find a copy of this particular article?
Thanks,
Craig Dicker
C_dicker@fauvax
C_DICKER@acc.fau.edu
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Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1992 21:26:21 -0400
Reply-To:     aa248@yfn.ysu.edu
              <QUALRS-L@UGA.BITNET>
From:         Nicholas Sturm <aa248@YFN.YSU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: List Global

>
>>To get a BITNET listing of lists send the following message
>>from your system prompt:
>>
>>send listserv@bitnic list global
>>
>>                         Ermel
>
>Just a word of caution. If my memory serves me correctly (and
>it hasn't always) you will receive a very large file in
>return. Dumping this to a WP and laser printer for our dept.
>some months ago, produced some 85 pages. Beware!
>
>
It was approximately 230 K.


--
Nicholas Sturm, 4037 Ward Beecher, 410 Wick Ave., Youngstown, Ohio 44555
  * aa248@yfn.ysu.edu *
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Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 11:40:00 MST
              <QUALRS-L@UGA.BITNET>
From:         JIMANDE@CC.UTAH.EDU
Subject:      Distance Learning
Comments: To: QUALRS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu

Probably the most experience folks with distance learning are the
Australians.  I'd check with Queensland.
Jim Anderson
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Date:         Fri, 14 Aug 1992 13:58:20 EDT
              <QUALRS-L@UGA.BITNET>
From:         Peter=Neenan%NetAd%HSRD@HSRD.SOWO.UNC.EDU
Subject:      re: Exotic Classrooms
Comments: To: QUALRS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu

I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who is currently conducting/has
conducted participatory research in industrial settings with "blue collar"
workers.  I'm particularly interested in aspects of entree; relations with
coworkers, supervisors, management; extent to which research role was explicit
or hidden; and difficulties encountered (if any) as an academic in such
settings.

Thanks!

Peter A. Neenan, Ph.D.
School of Social Work
University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
CB#3570
Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3570
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Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 18:06:00 EST
              <QUALRS-L@UGA.BITNET>
From:         "Sharon L. Lang" <SLANG@UTOROISE.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: new electronic journal - call for articles

SUBCRIBE IPCT-L SHARON L. LANG
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Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 13:31:00 PDT
              <QUALRS-L@UGA.BITNET>
From:         Mashoed Bailie <MBAILIE@OREGON.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Double postings

>>Is anyone ese receiving double postings . . .

Add me to your list.

Mashoed Bailie
Dept of Speech
Telecommunication and Film
University of Oregon
Eugene, OR 97403
(503) 346-4242
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Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 17:09:05 -0400
Reply-To:     aa248@yfn.ysu.edu
              <QUALRS-L@UGA.BITNET>
From:         Nicholas Sturm <aa248@YFN.YSU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: once upon a time....

>
>Jean--
>
>The reason some of us judge qualitative research to be far more
>difficult, intellectually rigorous, and sophisticated than
>quantitative research is that the question you pose are *ALWAYS*
>lurking in the background and must continually be addressed in our
>work.

My primary field for the data and generalizations I communicate is quite
different from most of those speaking here, but a crutch I use may be
helpful.  When a word seems to defy simple definition and I will select
guide posts that the student may comprehend that lie within the definition.
Once these are established (I hope) I will then attempt to define the more
slippery terms on a basis of including these guides.  And eventually
try to characterized the differing views of the term/concept.

At other times I'm use the approach of defining an arbitrary subset (a
pillar) that can serve as a cluster (point) of references, and then explain
that most use a term to include this cluster (point) although the limits
(differing as they may) always extend beyond in one or many directions.

It's sloppy, but reasoning by analogy is too, but still frequently helpful
to the novice (read: any who has yet not developed their own perception/
definition).

--
Nicholas Sturm, 4037 Ward Beecher, 410 Wick Ave., Youngstown, Ohio 44555
  * aa248@yfn.ysu.edu *
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Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 15:18:21 EDT
              <QUALRS-L@UGA.BITNET>
From:         John <JHP0C@WATSON.ACC.VIRGINIA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Double postings
              20 Aug 1992 12:43:36 MDT from <rwilson@EDUC.UCALGARY.CA>

Yes, I'm getting doubles.  Must be something wrong with the software
maintaining the list.
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Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 13:12:28 CDT
              <QUALRS-L@UGA.BITNET>
From:         "jean kantambu latting" <SOCW9V@UHUPVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Realism=Positivism???

by popular demand....

and with trepidations that i will be found wanting in a reading
comprehension test....

First a preface:  in their paper, "The Virtues of Educational
Semiotics," Gary Shank and Donald Cunningham define
semiotics as "a field that makes the bold assertion that human cognition
is accomplished entirely with signs, that we have no direct access to
the real world."

Now the quote that lead me to think the authors equated realism with
positivism:

"Traditional approaches to human cognition are grounded on one side or
the other of the classic philosophical conundrum:  realism vs. idealism.
Realist views, the more common in educational circles today, argue that
human cognition has the potential to be a mirror of reality.  Sign-like
processes, if they are considered at all, tend to be regarded as error -
of perception, memory, intelligence, etc.  Idealist approaches posit
nothing but sign process, where reality is that which we construct with
our minds.  Semiotics, in our thinking, constitutes a genuine third
alternative, not simply some compromise between realism and idealism.
While we disagree among ourselves about the character of this third
alternative (this is not the place to pursue this debate), we agree that
the solution is grounded in the notion that signs are shared, that they
exist fundamentally as a means of communication between organisms, and
that we literally bring forth the worlds in which we find outselves in a
form of structural coupling with other organisms."  (p. 3)

At another place, the authors say, "The educational semiotician...looks
at the setting in its own terms, as an environment imbued with
layer after layer of meaning.  The act of the ES is to uncover,
reveal, and examine those layers of meaning, and in particular, to
articulate meaning patterns that have, until then, been only covert."

Now here is where it gets tangly.  Gary may argue that he was talking
about a system of thought, not a research methodology.  If so, I
interpreted what he meant beyond what he said.  In any case, based on
that quote and the development of the rest of the paper, I assumed that
they meant that "realists" approach educational research from a
positivistic perspective--they think they are measuring the real world
out there.  Idealists, on the other hand, use a social constructionist
approach--they view reality as "that
which we construct with our minds."  Since Shank & Cunningham were
positing that semiotics was a "third alternative," I was asking Gary to
explain further what he meant--especially since I couldn't see how
what the educational semiotician does is distinct from what a
social constructionist or symbolic interactionist would do.

Hope this clarifies more than it confuses.

Jean
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Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 15:29:39 -0700
              <QUALRS-L@UGA.BITNET>
Comments:     Warning -- original Sender: tag was rotha@SFU.CA
From:         Michael_Roth@SFU.CA
Subject: Re: Double postings
Comments: To: "Qualitative Research for the Human Sciences"
              <QUALRS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu>

By now we know that many of us get double postings (though mine have
stopped since last night).  Judith indicated that she is going to fix the
problem.  But I would hate to see the network cluttered with messages on an
old problem that an obviously competent person is already taking care of.

I suggest that those who continue to experience problems send the message
to Judith (JGOETZ@uga.cc.uga.edu).

Michael

Wolff-Michael Roth, Ph.D.
Research Methods & Science Education
Faculty of Education
Simon Fraser University
Burnaby, BC, Canada  V5A 1S6
Tel:       (604) 291-3046
FAX:      (604) 291-3203
internet: Michael_Roth@sfu.ca
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Organization: University of Connecticut
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Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 16:24:10 EST
              <QUALRS-L@UGA.BITNET>
From:         ted mills <TMILLS@UCONNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Gracey - Kindergarten as Academic Boot Camp

Harry Gracey did a study with the Bank Street College of Education and publishe
d an extended report as "Curriculum or Craftsmanshhip: Elementary School
Teacher in a Bureaucratic System" (Chicago: U of Chicago Press, 1972).

He wrote the article entitled ". . .Bootcamp" for "Readings in Introductory
Sociology," 3rd edition, edited by Dennis H. Wrong and Harry L. Gracey
and published by Macmillan in 1977.  It was reprinted in the volume I have,
a reader entitled "Structure and Process: Readings in Introductory Sociology"
edited by Richard J. Peterson and Charlotte A. Vaughan and published by
Wadsworth Press in 1986.

It is a good example of a closely observed institutional setting interpreted
from a strongly political perspective.  Here is the closing judgment:

"The kindergarten has been conceived of here as the year in which children
are prepared for their schooling by learning the role of student. . . . Once
out of the school system, young adults will more than likely find themselves
working in large-scale bureaucratic organizations . . . where they will be
required to submit to rigid routines imposed by "the company" which may make
little sense to them. Those who can operate well in this situation will be
successful bureaucratic functionaries.  Kindergarten, therefore, can be seen
as preparing children not only for participation in the bureaucratic organizati
on of large modern school systems, but also for the large-scale occupational
bureaucracies of modern society." (pp 100-101 of the Peterson/Vaughan reader)
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Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 12:28:52 CDT
              <QUALRS-L@UGA.BITNET>
From:         cliff staples <UD153289@NDSUVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: blue collar PO

Peter will also want to see david Halle's _America's Working Man_ an
ethnography of refinery workers in Northern New Jersey.

                                                       Cliff Staples
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Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 09:56:55 +1000
              <QUALRS-L@UGA.BITNET>
From:         cj@DEAKIN.OZ.AU
Subject:      g
Comments: To: QUALRS-L@uga.cc.uga.edu

list global
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