From: sohan+@andrew.cmu.edu (Sohan C. Ramakrishna-Pillai)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: Wall Street Journal article by ImranAnwar
Date: 5 Jan 93 09:07:44 GMT
Article-I.D.: andrew.EfGRm0G00WAo01FVIf
	<1993Jan4.174704.21882@oakhill.sps.mot.com>
Organization: Systems Group 82, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

Excerpts from netnews.soc.culture.pakistan: 4-Jan-93 Re: Wall Street
Journal art.. Farooq M. Butt@engage.sp (4831)

> In article <C0AIns.L0q@uceng.uc.edu> mghayalo@uceng.uc.edu (Manoj
> Ghayalod) writes:
> Well, even if that were so, assuming that there is no genetic weakness
> that is manifest in the muslim population, we should see around 12% of
> all IIT students and faculty be muslim right ? I believe the figure is
> not even a quarter of that.

Looking at what are essentially economic issues which tend to have
class-wise correlations through religious glasses tends to distort the
picture.
There is a greater degree of complexity in the demographics of India
than simply Hindu-vs-Muslim. People like me who have grown up in India
can state that there are empowered Muslim classes as well as Hindu
classes in India. Perhaps the fact that a good section of the empowered
Muslim Indian elite set up a separate empire for themselves in Pakistan
has contributed to the dilution of Muslim clout in India and this gets
reflected in statistics like the above. Perhaps if one were to break up
the various economic statistics class-wise as well as religion-wise, one
may not find a great discrepancy religion-wise between similar classes.
This is probably similar to how apparently the birth rate is higher
among Muslims w.r.t. Hindus when viewed in the overall context, but a
class-wise breakdown indicates a greater parity across religions (sorry,
no statistics, but people have thrown around the numbers often enough).

>   India has this interesting habit of
> assigning token minority members to various "high posts" in an attempt
> to make the myth of secularism seem real.  Almost every argument

Perhaps it would be better if tokenism (which does exist) were viewed in
a more positive light as an attempt at inclusion of minorities instead
of as a hypocritical sham. While India may not be a model of secularism
(in the Indian inclusive sense rather than in the literal sense of
exclusion of religion from state affairs), terming Indian secularism a
myth greatly deviates from the truth. Secularism in India may be flawed
- non-idealities exist, politicians play sectarian games in their search
for power etc., but even so, Ayodhya notwithstanding, it is still a case
of the greater part of the nation being secular-minded with the
ocassional upsurge of communal elements rather than the other way
around. Yes, we need to do better, but the characterization as a myth is
> a great exaggeration.
>  
>  about
> this that I have had with some of my Indian buddies ends with a
> statement of the form: "well Muhammad Ali Falana Dumkana is the chief
> minister of Airaa Waigharaa." This insults my intelligence, am I
> expected to believe that a random political appointee will accurately
> reflect the views and opinions of muslims in India ?!?  

Assuming that any Muslim in power is a random political appointee or a
token appointment not only indicates a lack of ignorance, but is also an
insult to the capabilities (chamchagiri or otherwise) of those Muslims.
As a general rule, Muslim politicians who have come to political power
in India have usually done so the old-fashioned way - licking the ass of
the Nehru-Gandhi clan, much the same way as Hindu or other politicians.
In some states where independent political power bases have been
established, they have come to power on their own - Kerala and Kashmir
(sorry if that sticks in your craw) being two such examples of states
which had Muslim CMs.
Unfortunately in India, which (still?) has a secular constitution, there
is no requirement that a Muslim in power accurately reflect the views of
Muslims in India. A Muslim politician in India, much like any other
politician in India, is free to choose or develop a constituency of his
liking. If that insults your intelligence, so be it. Perhaps you just
need to get a wider perspective without burdening every Muslim with the
duty of being a representative of all other Muslims.

> Oh come on! Is the massive sikh uprising a "little trouble stirred up by 
> the foreign hand" ? Face the truth, India and Pakistan are both rapidly 
> becoming balkanized into religious/ethnic/national subgroups.

It is quite easy for a minority to hold a majority hostage,
particularly, if it has safe haven and easy access to arms in a
neighbouring country. There is still no evidence that the so-called
"Sikh uprising" is massive, but there is plenty of evidence that the
"uprising" is externally based and supported.

> Pakistan has already started rebuilding damaged temples. India has 
> added insult to injury by permitting the hindu hordes who destroyed 
> the Babri Masjid to pray there.  The GOI has mouthed well-meaning 
> slogans to pacify muslims but the truth is far from the pretty 
> picture that has been painted.  Watch for a temple where the masjid stood
> in 1993.

India doesn't have a dictatorial system in effect where the government
decides to do something and can quietly go ahead and do it (at least
when the press may be watching :-)). You may not be aware of it, but
Pakistan being a nascent democracy and all that, the Pakistani govt. may
be able to arbitrarily take over the temple grounds in Pakistan and
rebuild them etc., and that may not be easily possible in India (Indian,
not Pakistani govt. taking over the Ayodhya property, I mean:-)). Given
the arbitrary amount of bureaucratic hassles involved (starting with
court decisions etc.), it is no joke, but a Muslim mob can illegally
rebuild a mosque in Ayodhya a lot faster then the Indian govt. legally
can. Of course, I tend to agree with you on whether the will is there in
the GOI. More likely, it will be political calculations rather than
notions of justice which will determine whether a mosque or a temple or
a temple-mosque complex will be rebuilt in the area.
Anyway, at the risk of digressing, come on, man, who are we kidding
anyway, comparing Pakistani rebuilding of Hindu temples to the Ayodhya
thing in India. Had the temple destructions in Pakistan etc. and the
recent riots not taken place in a public fashion with some international
colour to the whole scene, can you honestly say that there is even a
flimsy chance that the grand ole' Islamic GOP would be doing this at all?

> The signal that Ayodhya sends is that it's perfectly OK to persecute 
> those "darn invading muslims."  Destroy their historic mosques and you'll 
> get a ceremonial tap on the hand and a wink followed by the construction of 
> a temple.  GOI's hypocrisy on the Ayodyha issue has been simply incredible.
> If Indian police do not know anything about a mob of 100000 religious radicals 
> assembling in a random town where there is a big religious problem, then 
> India must not only be in trouble but close to anarchy.

It is not quite clear that it is indeed GOI hypocrisy which is the
reason for the lack of security at Ayodhya. Those familiar with Indian
politicians can readily understand that this could be more a case of
incompetence here. Furthermore, PVNR had been embarking on a less
dictatorial path than his predecessors and since law and order is a
state subject in India, there is a good case that he expected the UP
state government to live up to its responsibilities and didn't want to
intervene prematurely. Politically too, PVNR's gaddi would be much safer
with the status quo ante.
Essentially, while machiavelism cannot be ruled out, neither can genuine
incompetence. The reaction from the federal government as well as many
of the political parties *seems* to be one of genuine surprise.
Remember, it took a couple of days before security forces could even get
to Ayodhya etc. And if the whole thing was foreseen by PVNR, it is
unlikely that he would have committed further political blunders like
dismissing BJP state governments outside UP under pressure from other
Congress power-brokers etc. And surprisingly, there are even signs of
rift in the BJP, which used to boast of its party discipline.

Meanwhile, let the wheels of justice turn, let the string of courts hand
out their decisions, let us watch some "kissa kursi ka" and let us hope
for the best, before prematurely jumping to conclusions. The final act
hasn't been played yet.
___
Sohan C. Ramakrishna-Pillai
Office: UCC 181	Phone: x6406 [(412)268-6406]

 "In the beginning, man created beer, and it was good. God was
  created shortly thereafter." Gospel According to Brew, 1:1