From: VEAL@utkvm1.utk.edu (David Veal)
Subject: Re: What is United States of America like?
Organization: University of Tennessee Division of Continuing Education
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 19:11:12 GMT

In article <Bzo279.JFC@unix.amherst.edu> pdchapin@unix.amherst.edu (PAUL D CHAPIN) writes:

>David Veal (PA146008@utkvm1.utk.edu) wrote:
>: In article <BzM8u5.JM3@unix.amherst.edu>
>: pdchapin@unix.amherst.edu (PAUL D CHAPIN) writes:
>: 
>: >Jyrki Kuoppala (jkp@cs.HUT.FI) wrote:
>: >
>: >: I hear reports of kids trained to inform to the officials about their
>: >: parents.
>: >
>: >That's plan silly.
>: 
>:        I take it, then, that you've missed all the news reports on children
>: turning their parents in, usually for drug abuse, sometimes for other things?
>
>That wasn't the claim.  The claim was that they were "trained".  This implies
>a program of instruction.  That's plain silly.

       I take it then, you have also missed out on all the entertaining 
programs going on in elementary schools these days, designed to help 
children "help" their parents when "they've got a problem."  You've 
apparently also missed the teary-eyed boy who, after the police showed up 
and took his parents away in handcuffs was devestated, because he'd only 
done "What they said in school he should do."

>: >: I hear reports of proposed legislation to required every telephone or
>: >: other communication network operator be required to build taps for the
>: >: Government on all equipment.
>: >:
>: >Tapping a phone is not that difficult.  It can be done anywhere.  This country
>: >requires a court order in all but a few extreme cases.
>: 
>:         There's been far too much "Oops, you mean we were supposed to get
>: a court order?"  Anyway, what with the advances in technology, it is getting
>: harder and harder to do taps.  That's part of the big stink over encryption.
>: Even if they can do the taps, they want to be able to read the communications.

>If the court order isn't obtained, the evidence can't be used.  

       Really?  But you know what the amusing thing is?  You know what you 
need to get a court order these days?  An anonymous tip will do it in most 
cases.  What protection is a court order that is that easy to get?

>It's called
>the exclusionary rule, I believe.  Authorities have got enough to do to spend
>much time gathering evidence they can't use.

       Which would, I suppose, explain the vast number of people with their 
homes, cars, and cash confiscated based on their electric bills, illegal 
searches, etc. who were never charged in in court, but can't get their 
property back?  Uh-huh.  Not using it in court *really* helped.

 
>: >: I hear reports of a war being declared and fought in USA - a war
>: >: against "drugs", with the Bill of Rights being the major casualty.
>: >:
>: >Bullshit.  The Bill of Rights is alive and well.
>: 
>:         No, the Bill of Rights is dead and buried.  There are wisps of the
>: first still hanging around for, I would guess, sentimental value, but the
>: second through the tenth are, for all practical purposes, gone completely.
>
>Then why are conservatives still screaming tha the police had be handicapped
>by it?  

         Social inertia.  

>The only one I know that could be questioned is the interpretation
>of the due process clause.  Everything else is doing fine in my neighborhood.

         Uh-huh.  Due process has come to mean "Congress has passed a law."  
The fourth amendment is gone.  The police don't need warrents much anyway.  
"Probable cause" will do.  And when they do get a warrent it's often an 
anonymous tip, of they won't tell the people they're serving it against who 
swore it out, despite their being entitled to face their accuser.  Money and 
property is "arrested" in clear violation of the fifth amendment.  
         Doing fine.  Right.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Veal               University of Tennessee Div. of Cont. Education
                         Information Services Group
PA146008@utkvm1.utk.edu  (Mail to VEAL@utkvm1.utk.edu will bounce.)