From: agr00@ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Why Anthony Rose Wouldn't Answer
Date: 20 Nov 92 02:58:55 GMT
Reply-To: agr00@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Anthony G Rose)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <lglflnINNqfo@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> farkas@qual.Eng.Sun.COM writes:
>
>
>
>Anthony Rose responded, when I quoted John chapter 17:11,20,21&23 to show 
>that Jesus said that his deciples can be one with him and with his Father 
>the same way as he is one with the Father. My basic point was that Jesus
>resolved the Trinity issue himself, in his prayer to his Father. 
>
>Here are the passages I quoted (I added verse 23):
>
>John 17:11
>---------- 
>"And now I am no more in the world, but these are in  the world, and I come to 
>thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, 
>that they may be one, as we are"
> 
>John 17:20-21
>=============
>"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on 
>me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, 
>art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may 
>believe that thou hast sent me."
>
>John 17:23
>---------- 
>"I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and the 
>world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast 
>loved me."
>
>Anthony Rose responded as follows:
>
>>You obviously are not very well learned in the area of Greek.  In the
>>Kione Greek language, in which the NT is written, there are several
>>different meanings for the word, "one".  However, in the English
>>language, we have to use the same word.  The word "one" does mean the
>>same thing is all instances of the Scritures.  Better get a Lexicon and
>>and interlineal and check it out for yourself.  This argument cannot be
>>supported in the Greek.
>
>I asked him to "enlighten" us, but he never did. 
>
>As I promised, here is why the issue he raised is a red herring, even so,
>he did say some things which is in fact true, but not the way he think so.
>
>He Was Correct With the Following
>=================================
>1. I am not well learned in Greek.
>2. The Greek word used for "one" in John chapter 17 may indeed 
>   do not mean, "one and the same".
>
>He was Wrong With the Following
>===============================
>1. From his arguement Anthony made, one would assume that Jesus used a
>   different Greek word for "one" when he said in John 10:30, "I and the 
>   Father are one" (of course, he didn't say it in Greek!).
>
>   Surprise! The same word for "one" in Greek is used both in John 
>   chapter 17 and in John 10:30. 
>
>So, What Does, and Doesn't, These Mean
>======================================
>1. Jesus never said that he and the Father are "one and the same".
>2. Jesus *did* say that his disciples can be "one" (whatever that 
>   means in Greek) with each other, with him and with God the Father,
>   the same way as he is "one" with the Father. And this is the issue 
>   I raised against the Orthodox Christian teaching of the Trinity.
>
>
>With brotherly love,
>
>		Frank


The Greek word for "one" that you are having such a problem with is:

"HEIS"  =  One in Unity.  For example, one room has three aspects, height,
           width and length.  While each of these three aspects are
           separate, the height fills the whole room, the width fills the
           whole room, and the length fills the whole room.  They are all
           three, the whole room separately, yet there is only ONE room.

You were using this verse to say, "The Father and Jesus are one, and we
and Jesus are one, therefore, we can become Gods".  THAT is what I was
referring to when I said that you can't support that from the Greek,
because of the meaning of the word "one".

The issue of the Trinity is not simple to understand.  However, Scripture
makes it really clear to us that there is ONLY ONE GOD, and then it calls
the Father God, The Son God, and The Holy Spirit God.  We are forced to
the conclusion of the Trinity.  I grant it that it is not easy to
comprehend.  I'll admit that I don't fully comprehend it.  Anyone who
tells you they do is lying.  However, if a room can have these attributes,
then certainly the creator of the room can without any problem.  The
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not THREE GODS as Joseph Smith believed
and taught, and the LDS church teaches today.  Scripture tells us that
there is ONLY ONE GOD.

Sorry if my post was confusing to you.

Love,
-tony
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc