From: daveb@pogo.wv.tek.com (Dave Butler)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Prayer and Religious Activities in the Public Schools
Date: 7 Apr 92 00:09:14 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Wilsonville,  OR.

Len Howard puts forth some arguments for school prayer I consider highly
flawed:

> Dave, I always find it interesting that of all the activities students
> get involved in during their education, religious activies are the
> only ones that face legal sanction.  If we are interested in
> photography, and wish to express our individuality by taking pictures,
> we can form a school photo club.  They can hold exhibits of their work
> in the halls or in the cafeteria.  

Len you are comparing the voluntary activities of a club, to enforced actions
which favor a religious affiliation.  The analogy is forced and ill fitting. 
You wish school prayer to be instituted; this is nothing like a club.  If
someone does not wish to participate in a club, no one forces him to join,
participate or observe.  This is definitely different from institutionalized
school prayer.  For instance, when was the last time you were required to
attend a class which had five minutes of each day mandatorily given over to
venerating a photography club.  The problem is that you not only want the
right to pray in school (a right you already possess), you also wish to coerce
all others to either share in or stand witness to your prayers.  This is shown
further by your statement:

> But we cannot practice our religion in any way except individual
> silent prayer, and this only because it cannot be detected by the
> teacher.

Firstly, I have yet be witness or hear testimony of a child prevented from
folding his/her hands in quiet prayer or crossing him/herself on completion of
a prayer (and these actions are very detectable by teachers).  All that is
prevented is disruptive prayer (ie: a child may not disrupt a class with loud
and/or dramatic prayers). 

Secondly, I have to ask about your apparent need for other people to bear
witness to your prayers.  Why should it be necessary to allot official time,
so that you can pray in an obvious manner? Why must everyone know you are
praying? Are you stating that obvious and/or melodramatic public prayer is
required by your religion? If so then I find that rather odd, as Jesus is
recorded as criticizing public displays of prayer.  He stated that public
displays of prayerful piety are self-serving and hypocritical, and that one
should pray in private behind closed doors.  So I want to know Len, why do you
disagree with your god?  Also Len, what is the specific benefit served by
public school prayer, which is not sufficiently served by your child to
sharing a prayer with you at breakfast, or praying in later in private? I also
wish to know the specific gain you see in forcing all children to join your
child in public prayer, or bearing witness to his prayer. Does public prayer
really serve your righteousness, or does it only serve your
self-righteousness?

Finally on the subject of mandatory school prayer I wish to point out that you
are attempting to usurp a decision which your god is supposed to have granted
each man.  I have on many occasions, heard praises for "free will", and that
your god has granted every man the choice to freely accept Jesus as God, Lord
and Savior, and thus also leaves to each man the choice of whether to pray to
your god.  Here though you have suddenly decided, based on your own wisdom, to
overrule your god's judgement and mandate school prayer.  Doesn't this show a
bit of hubris to remove from us that choice which you assert was granted us by
your god?
 
				Later,

				Dave Butler

    Leave the matter of religion to the family altar, the church, and the
    private school, supported entirely by private contributions.  Keep the
    Church and the State for ever separate.
				Ulysses S. Grant
				Speech before The Army of the Tennessee,
				Des Moines, 1875 
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,soc.culture.jewish