From: steven@spxtech.qc.ca (Steve Potter)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Access to English school: quotes
Date: 5 Sep 92 12:44:11 GMT
Distribution: can
Organization: Securiplex Technologies Inc., Montreal, Canada
X-Bytes: 6368

From article <12774@audetf>, by audetf@Software.Mitel.COM (Francois Audet):
> In article (Steve Potter) writes:
>>From article <12744@audetf>, by audetf@Software.Mitel.COM (Francois Audet):
>>> ........ I view Quebec as a francophone society, with a sizable
>>> english minority that has a lot of privileges for a minority (i.e.,
>>> services, hospitals, education in english, etc.).
>>
>>English is _NOT_ a foreign language in Quebec. (Denis himself, de facto,
>>declared Quebec to be bilingual yesterday.) English is an official
>>language in Canada; a country of which Quebec is a province.
> 
> English is not an official language in Quebec, the same way french is
> not an an oficial language in any provinces besides Quebec and
> New-Brunswick.
> 

Quebec could declare its "official" language to be swahili - it would
still be multi-lingual society. Predominantly French, significantly
English, and others.

>>Quebec is _NOT_ "a francophone society, with a sizable English minority
>>that has a lot of privileges for a minority...". It is a predominantly
>>French but bilingual society.
> 
> What's not true in there? "Quebec is a francophone society"? Of course
> it's true! 

I repeat: Quebec is a *predominantly* francophone society. Le "visage"
francais du Quebec est un masque!. C'est bien evident.

The fact that some would prefer that the English community in Quebec
did not "officially" exist makes it no less real.

> It was wasn't then you can go ahead in saying that France
> is not a francophone society, that Wallonie is not a francophone
> society, that England is not an anglophone society, etc.

I repeat: English is not a foreign language in Quebec. Why do some
people keep trying to talk of Quebec as if it were?

> such thing as a bilingual society unless EVERYTHING is bilingual,
> including people. You can have bilingual institutions, bilingual
> services, bilingual people, etc. but only a very naive person would
> believe that a "bilingual society" exists. We can't even have a
> bilingual City! (Some part of some cities might be close to it
> however). Your principle of Quebec required to be bilingual (I mean
> really bilingual, not just by proclaiming itself to be like Canada) is
> based on false impressions that were forced through your brain by
> propaganda.


"Bilingual: 1. Written or expressed in or using two languages.
2. Able to speak two languages, often with equal skill.
* In Canada, bilingual and its derivatives have, in most situations,
reference to English and French, the official languages of the country."
[Funk & Wagnalls Standard College Dictionary]

Quebec is bilingual whether you choose to admit or not, regardless of
its "Official" language.

> 
>>> Therefore, according to that logic, it is normal that immigrants go
>>> to french schools.
>>
>>The logic is based on a false assertion. Conclusion is therefore invalid.
> 
> No it isn't: yours are. Why don't you apply your same principles
> everywhere.

Yes it is.

> 
>>> No one would say that England is racist because if you move there, you
>>> are expected to speak english.
>>
>>You can speak whatever language you want in England.
> 
> You can do the same in Quebec, or any where else in Canada.
> 

Except in some French schools in the M.C.S.C. where children are penalised
for using English on the premises. Yes - it still happens! :-(
(I'm not sure of schools in other school boards - anyone aware?)

>>You can send your kids to school in any language you want where there is
>>sufficient demand for schooling in that language to make it economically
>>viable. (Welsh, Hebrew, Gujarati, for example).
> 
> I couldn't care less about Gujarati schools in London. If the english
> feel (rightfully so) that massive immigration will not impose a new
> language on others, fine. The situation is not the same here.

There is not "massive immigration imposing a new language" or an old
language here. Please read the comments from Jacques Henripin that I
posted before. (Under "a few quotes", I think).

The fears were unjustified. They are unjustified. The measures taken
were unnecessary and extreme.

> 
> Try to ask questions to an englishman in Gujaratan (?) and see if
> he'll answer.
> 

Maybe 99% of Englishman don't speak Gujarati, so what's your point?

>>You can put signs up in language you want.
> 
> I'm not a supporter of the sign law, although I can see why it
> happened, and there is no black-and-white solution on who's right or
> who's wrong.

People should be allowed to put commercial signs up in any language
they want. That's business.

> 
>>Yes, England has significant racist elements (National Front, some groups
>>of Skinheads). Simple discrimination is prominant too (ask any Pakistani
>>living in London!).
> 
> We all know that, but what does it have to do with the situation here?
> 

I won't get drawn into that one again. I have already expressed my views
in that field. It started a whole discussion on racism with a lot of
insults and accusations flying around. This is not productive.

>>How important is the English minority in Quebec?
> 
> You probably know the numbers better than I do.
> 

I meant, how important is the English minority community to the life
and character of Quebec society? (I think)

Is it an essential part of Quebec?

>>Which rights did the English community in Quebec "acquire"?
> 
> Well, actually, if you want to be precise, they didn't acquire rights
> (and priviledges) They gave them to themselves after they INVADED the
> country. Simple but true. And then, they kept for a while until a lot
> of the priviledges were denied.
> 

Ah, the invasion. The sins of the fathers.

>>> If this is discrimination, then not having spanish schools for all
>>> children is also discrimination.
>>
>>Is it? - Please explain!
> 
> What!?!  Are you saying that anglophones are entitled to english
> education more than spaniards are entitled to spanish education?

In a country where English is an official language and English schools
are available at public expense - what's your estimate?

-- 
  ///==================================================================\\\
  ||| Steve Potter:         steven%spxtech@CAM.ORG                     |||
  ||| Expertise/Experience: Computer Systems Engineering / Real Ale /  |||
  |||                       Politics in Education in Quebec            |||
Newsgroups: can.politics