From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Say it ain't so
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 00:35:59 GMT

In article <1992Dec4.222026.3727@Princeton.EDU> niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent) writes:
>In article <1992Dec3.015949.22567@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:

>>What makes you think that the jury is so perfect, clever and immune to
>>manipulation? 
>
>Nothing, but I'd be at least as inclined to trust their opinion, given
>that they were actually in the courtroom, as yours.

Others who were in court the whole time thought the jury's verdict was
foolish and inconsistent with the case as presented.  At least you
recognize that the jury needn't be made up of such clever people,
after all.

>There was a person released from prison last week after serving almost
>10 years for raping a woman on two different occasions.  The woman who 
>accused him picked him OUT OF A LINEUP.  You'd think that would be a pretty 
>good identification, right?  The jury certainly did.  And *she* wasn't
>even dying at the time.  Only, DNA evidence *proved* last week that he
>didn't do it.  Too bad HIS jury didn't think of that 'ludicrous theory.'

You see, juries DO screw up sometimes.  Even you agree to that.

>I don't have a single objection to this, and I don't think Steven or
>anyone else arguing with you does either.  I'm simply not willing to
>assume that an entire justice system is anti-semitic based on this
>particular guy, who may NOT have been one of those 2 dozen.  

Where are the other 2 dozen?  Still running in the streets screaming
"Kill the Jews"?

Mayor Dinkin's record in recent weeks have earned him wide criticism
for misunderstanding Jews and rushing to support Black causes while
showing characteristic restraint when Koreans/Jews/Whites are unfairly
treated, especially when these people are attacked by other Blacks.
If Dinkins isn't anti-Semitic (and he strenuously denies it), then he
is at the very least biased.  A lot of people have come to this
unfortunate conclusion recently.

>>No chance?  Then how about getting rid of the police, the courts and
>>the jails?  Not only will innocent people never be punished for crimes
>>they didn't commit, the guilty won't either. 
>
>I won't comment on this.  okay, I will.  What would *you* have us do?
>Throw out trial by jury?  Eliminate innocent until proven guilty?  

How about having criminals who are acquitted by
manipulated/terrorized/biased/bought-off/racist/stupid 
juries getting re-tried?

>I'm sure (and every study I've seen) shows that blacks are more
>anti-semitic than whites.  That doesn't mean that these people were.
>According to the woman who talked to the Times, one of the two white
>jurors was the strongest force for acquital on the jury.  

Are white people immune to stupdity now?

>>"Never again" means something, you know.  A. M. Rosenthal hasn't
>>apologized for calling the riots in Crown Heights a pogrom and neither
>>will I.  I notice that you haven't even touched on the abandonment of
>>the Jews of Brooklyn to rioting mobs but instead propose that my
>>criticism and fears are inappropriate and unwarranted.  Good grief! 
>
>AM Rosenthal is an idiot; he holds different people/countries to
>different standards depending on whether he likes their politics.

I suppose that these are the pre-requsite qualifications for getting
to write a regular column in the NY Times, huh?

>What I proposed was that your rhetoric was ridiculous; this was NOT a
>pogrom by any historical standards, (how many hundreds of people died in
>this 'pogrom,' Jake?), 

One person was murdered right at the start, a visitor from overseas
who was not familiar with Black hatred for Jews in Brooklyn, who
hadn't even heard of any traffic accident earlier that afternoon.  The
following three days had gangs of hundreds of Blacks devouring a
community screaming "Kill the Jews".  (In case you hadn't heard about
it, there has been a large rise in violent attacks on Jews by Blacks
in NY in recent weeks, with exactly the same cry of "Kill the Jews".)

>the police/mayor did NOT start and then encourage
>the thing, 

They did the next best thing...

>even if they didn't respond to it correctly, and it doesn't even 
>come close to comparing to what's happening in Bosnia right now.

If only Israeli treatment of Arabs would be measured in comparison to
the way that Arabs are treated in virtually every other Arab state,
then people would recognize that Israel is extremely gentle with Arab
terrorists.  

How many Jews have to actually be killed in New York City before you
decide that "pogrom" is an appropriate term?

>I don't know what the best think to do in that situation is.  One thing
>I *do* know is that you don't send in an unprepared force, because they
>may make the situation worse rather than helping.  

The riots in LA last week were quickly contained.  News reports said
that police learned their lesson and responded quickly with
overwhelming force to gain control of the neighborhood again.  This
doesn't sound in accordance with your theory.

>>I am afraid that I was right about you.  Next thing, you're gonna say
>>that we should throw out the WOD and then everything is gonna be so
>>much easier.  Um, no; you've told us that one, already.
>
>I did, didn't I?  Next you'll be saying that all we have to do is
>convict anyone the police arrest as long as the official police version
>is okay by Jake's standards, and everything will be so much better.
>No, *you* said that already.

If I was the only one condemning the acquittal of the only suspect
ever arrested in Yankel Rosenbaum's murder (arrested within minutes of
the deed and identified by Rosenbaum himself), then your criticism
would sound more reasonable.  Unfortunately for your argument, lots of
other people agree with me.  They aren't holding by Jake's standards;
they are holding by American moral standards.  By these standards, the
Jews in New York are being very poorly treated by the authorities
today.  Are you going to try and deny this one now?

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com              10 years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed President.