From: holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: stereotypes - and a request
Date: 22 Jul 92 20:30:41 GMT
Organization: FERMILAB
X-Posted-From: fnalno.fnal.gov
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <2A6CFDB8.7997@noiro.acs.uci.edu>, cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis 
Maria Cortese) writes:

> While I agree with the need for a men's movement where what he calls
> their Warrior Energy is directed usefully, I'm suspicious of his
> treatment of other men.  He talks about momma's boys and stuff like
> that, and that "Do this or you're a sissy" is the oldest shaming trick
> in the book, used by people to browbeat little boys from day one. 

Have you read Iron John?  He talks about far more than "Warrior" energy.

> 
>>>Have you read any of the works of Barbara Walker?  In _Skeptical Feminist_,
>>>she calls for a matriarchal society in which social and political power is
>>>placed in the hands of women, and in which Goddess worship is used as a 
>>>social
>>>control to keep men under the control of women.
> 
> You're inept at crystallizing an entire section of a book into one
> sentence.  She says far more than this. 

My sentence was not meant to be exhaustive.  If you would like me to critique
the book at length, I'm sure I can dig it up.

> 
>>Yeah, but do you really think this would happen? Some of this goes back to
>>the days of kings and subjects. Subjects could say "kill the king" because any
>>good king knew it was a joke. But the king couldn't say kill the subjects,
>>because that wasn't a joke. That was real, see what I'm saying? If there is
>>equality, then things are different, but there isn't equality now, is there?

This excerpt is not my writing, and I do not know who's it is.

> The picture painted in what she calls a feminist Utopia -- one woman's
> ideal.  And, quite simply, if you read it, it's not man-hating (she does
> have man problems elsewhere in the book, but the Utopia is the most
> egalitarian thing I've ever envisioned).

I _have_ read Walker's Utopia envisionment.  You and I clearly have different
definitions of the word "egalitarian."

>>On a related issue, some people have speculated that early Greece was
>>matriarchal and the men were forced to worship the Goddess and consult the
>>elder matriarch for important decisions like who to marry. The theory goes
>>that the men got sick of this and subverted the Goddess by turning her into
>>a Goddess of war and the rest was HIStory, as he says. Who knows, maybe women 
>>do have a vicious side and have just been pretending to be sweet all these 
>>years, I just don't see it.

Once again, this is not my writing.

>>>Have you read Z. Budapest's _Holy Book of Woman's Mysteries_?  She equates 
>>>men
>>>with death, women with life, and then says that as death must be in service 
>>>to
>>>life, men must be in service to women, and proposes this as a model for
>>>societal structure.
> 
> Have YOU read anything about Z Budapest's life?  Again, since you are
> inept at canalizing an entire book by Walker into one sentence, I
> question your ability to do so with Z Budapest.

I am quite familiar with Z. Budapest's life.  I was unaware that past history
justifies calls for social injustice.

>>Haven't read it. Can't say as I see it as a serious threat. The concept of
>>men=death and women=life goes back to the Paleolithic and I can see some
>>sense in it, but to say that justifies who is master and who is slave is
>>silly. 

Once again, this is not my writing, and in fact looks like a response to my
writing.
 
> The Crone usually symbolized death; look up Kali.

 
>>The bottom line is that women make our children, but they need us, or
>>at least our sperm to become mothers. And I suspect we can lend a hand in
>>the child rearing process. We need each other. This master/slave stuff is
>>really sickening to me, in any form, with the exception of electronic.

Once again, this is not my writing.
 
> You have absolutely GOT to take a hand in it.  We need to provide little
> kids with examples of loving and tender and entirely masculine men.

No argument here.
 
>>>Have you seen the latest issue of Green Egg?  A fellow by the name of Bird
>>>Brother has called for men to surrender all policy making power to women.
> 
> I have to question most people who say things like that.  You mention
> three radical or radical type examples out of a movement that spans
> years and countries.  There's bound to be some objectionable stuff
> flying.  Talking about how dangerous the women's movement is by
> mentioning three radical examples is a bit like saying that the civil
> rights movement wa and is dangerous because Ice T talks violence.  This
> shit will pass.  When someone is squelched to the extent that the
> various and sundry minorities have been, there's bound to be anger to
> work out.  Do you expect to say to people, "Yay!  No more oppression!"
> and have them reply, "Great!  Let's all be friends!"  There's a lot of
> anger out there; we also have to get proof from the mainstream that we
> have no need for anger any longer.  So far in general we have not seen
> this.   

I was asked to cite examples of feminists who called for gynosupremacy.  I
provided some.  This is not an exhaustive list, nor do I claim it to be
representative of all feminism.  The original poster questioned their
existence, I have procided documentation.

(Hint: I am a feminist.)
 
>>Yeah, but that's very unlikely, isn't it? I could see the possibility of
>>having representatives that don't represent us and can't balance a budget,
>>but that's what we have now, right? I suppose we could have a VP who bakes
>>cookies instead of plays golf all the time.

Once again, not my writing.

-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
TEAM STAR Charter Member             | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.