From: han@anadolu.michigan.com (hasan.b.mutlu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe
Subject: So That Its Exports Could Be Relatively Cheaper, 'Spiros.'
Date: 9 Apr 92 02:08:00 GMT



<9204080201.AA13526@kocrsw06.delcoelect.com>
c23st@KOCRSV01.DELCOELECT.COM (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)

>> Turkiye has prospered for over 65 years without EC and I see no 
>> reason to change it, 'Geo T.' When you think of it, it appears that 
>> the Turkish side has had all the trump cards in his hands and yet 
>> it has not won the game so far. Let's see:

>I thought Turkiye was a 'she', like all countries. Let's see indeed.

Was it boring for you? Now tell us what of the Turkish Republic,
which together with the rest of the world sails toward the coming
millennium.

>> 1. Turkiye is a much larger country than Greece with 57 Million
>>    people versus 10.2 million Greeks.

>And Pakistan is 100+ million, and Lichnestein is a few thousand. So?

Turkiye's primary advantage is the availability of manpower/access
to adult manpower (read more about the Southeast Anatolia Project.)

>> 2. The Turkish Armed Forces are much stronger than Greek forces.

>Now you're talking. HERE IS ANOTHER SIMPLE QUESTION. WHAT DO THE ARMY
>SIZES OF THE TWO COUNTRIES HAVE TO DO WITH THEIR ECONOMIES?  

The industrialization of Turkiye is dear to the Turks and must be
protected. 

>(NEITHER
>COUNTRY MAKES SUBSTANTIAL WEAPONS IN NUMBERS SO THAT DEFENSE IS A
>MAJOR INDUSTRY, LIKE ISRAEL, BRAZIL, KOREA, ETC).  About as much as
>the Greek Stock Market and Dead Kurds? 

Danger of little knowledge. The citizens of Turkiye have the 
responsibility of defending their freedoms and of making sure 
that no one, in or outside of Turkiye, nibbles at them and 
eventually destroys them. 

>> 3. The economy and industry of Turkiye are unquestionably stronger
>>    than those of Greece.

>In light of the data I (and you) presented in our last two mail
>messages, i.e. from World Almanac, the only industry I can see Turkiye
>being unquestionably stronger is child-making. A country that can make
>$1.99 "Made in Turkey" Kmart 100% Cotton shirts has less cars,
>commercial vehicles, appliances, TV's, phones, etc than its
>"unquestionably weaker" neighbor of 1/6th population. Stronger :-). 

Have your eyes checked once in a while. The governments in Turkiye,
especially from 1983 on, have put a particular emphasis on the
infrastructure investments, thereby solving this issue almost
completely. However, the same could not be applied to Greece.
Today, there are more than one million color TV units in Turkiye.
More than one million sets are exported yearly, all of them
being produced locally. Remember that Turkiye's textile
quota is one sixteenth of that of Taiwan. Yes, Taiwan can
sell sixteen times more textile in US than Turkiye. Any 
explanations?

>> 5. Gross Domestic Product average annual growth rate: 6.3%
>> 6. GDP average annual growth rate: 5.3%
>> 7. Agriculture average annual growth rate: 3.2% 
>> 8. Industry average annual growth rate: 7.2%
>> 9. Manufacturing average annual growth rate: 7.9%
>> 10. Services average annual growth rate: 7.6%

>Percentage growth rates are irrelevant if no absolute basis for
>comparisons is presented. 

Joke?

>I already showed you what that means in the
>GDP comparisons, where Greece did a 16% a year for the last few years
>but its economy is still down the tubes.  

Because the budget deficit in Greece has reached an alarming stand.
The same is true for the current accounts.

>Why did you ignore the 70% a
>year inflation in Turkiye? 

Why hamper the growth of GDP through a non-expansionary monetary
policy? Turkiye would continually make devaluations, as is
the case at present, so that its exports could be relatively
cheaper and its imports relatively dearer in the world market.
Fair enough?

>And how come a Super-power of Agriculture
>only has a 3.2 growth rate a year? 

That's why it is called 'the real miracle.' Besides, the
Southeast Anatolia Project will soon take care of it.

>> Indeed, Greece has enormous problems to tackle. Her economy is
>> in shambles, corruption is rampant, air pollution is in 
>> outrages dimensions and infrastructure is decaying. They

>Greece is a 'she' but Turkiye is now a 'he'. I wonder if 'Gav*'
>is right :-). As we have shown so far, Greece's economy may be
>in shambles, but Turkiye's isn't any better, and certainly not
>'unquestionably stronger'. '

You live with illusions.

>For air pollution, need I remind you
>of the comments of a Turkish netter who lambasted the pollution
>from coal burning stoves and ancient automobiles? (and who
>was lambasted himself for criticizing the fatherland).

We live in a free world.

>> jail poor Albanian refugees and support, sponsor and shelter

>I betya you have not seen cases of 'poor Albanian refugees'
>killing Greek citizens for $10. About one every couple of days
>while I was there last November. 

Sure; blame it on 'poor Albanian refugees.' I don't need to
add anything here.

>> terrorists against the people of Turkiye. Yet, Greece invests
>> busily in military hardware to allay her paranoia.

>I bet statements such as yours about the Turkish economy being
>unquestionably better than the Greek economy because Turkiye has a
>bigger army really help. The landing boats across the Greek (nya nya)
>islands of the Greek Aegean sea have something to do with it too.

As usual, you are deep out of the money. The people of Turkiye 
know quite well that Greece and the Greek Cypriots will never 
abandon the idea of hellenizing Cyprus and will remain eternally 
hopeful of uniting it with Greece, someday, whatever the cost to the
parties involved. The history speaks for itself. Greece was 
the sole perpetrator of invasion on that island when it sent
its troops on July 15, 1974 in an attempt to topple the legitimate
government of Archibishop Makarios.

The release of Nikos Sampson, a member of EOKA [National Organization
of Cypriot Fighters] and a convicted terrorist, shows that the
'enosis' mentality continues to survive in Greece. One should not
forget that Sampson dedicated his life to annihilating the Turks
in Cyprus, committed murder to achieve this goal, and tried to
destroy the island's independence by annexing it to Greece. Of
course, the Greek governments will have to bear the consequences 
for this irresponsible conduct.

Starting from the Dardanelles the mainland Turkiye is surrounded 
with the 'Ege' islands all the way to 'Rodos.' In some places the 
Greek territory is only three miles away from the Turkish coasts. 

The Dodocanese islands in the Aegean Sea must be demilitarized 
in accordance with the Montreux Treaty (1936). Flouting this 
international accord, Greece has built extensive military air 
bases in these islands in an act of open aggression towards 
Turkiye.

Furthermore, the people of Turkiye do not forget that the Greek 
governments provide the Armenian terrorists with safe haven, 
logistics and intelligence.
 
>> The principal members of the EC admit that it was a mistake
>> to accept Greece to the EC. This affirmation is testimony
>> to the fact that notwithstanding her geographic location,
>> Greece is un-European in mentality and attitude.

>Like Italy, southern France, Spain, & Portugal are any better.
>Why did they admit it then?

Can you spell 'religion?'

>> Besides, can anyone see any resemblance between today's 
>> Greeks and the ancient Greeks who created civilization?

>None. who whould want to dress in bed-sheets and wear olive branches?
>(though the concept of laying on marble La-z-boys and posting news all
>day (modern equivalent of socratic discussions) is intriguing.

In the proper context of events, this is intellectually and
morally honest.

>> As for democracy, had democracy really been an inherent 
>> virtue of the Greeks would it have dragged its feet for 
>> so long to come to Greece? 

>I bet being occupied by the Ottomans for 400 years had something to do
>with it, as did a couple of world wars and a civil war.

How about those 'poor Albanian refugees?' You are tilting at Greek 
windmills.

>> But day to day, socially, economically, mentally, how European
>> are you?

>Let's see. Here's a list of popular items in Greece. Are they
>a. remnants of the ancient greek glory (tm)	
>b. remnants of the ottoman occupoation 		
>c. western civilization as we know it
>d. indigenous modern-greek
>e. none of the above
>How many (c)'s can you count? (hint: 1,3,4,7,8,9,10,11,12)

I have no reason to change it; perhaps, I am an enemy of
exams.

>> Your governments sponsor, feed and shelter terrorists against
>> a neighboring state, but France does the same. Therefore, you 
>> are excusable in terms of certain moral and democratic values.

>The name of the country supporting the Contra's escapes my memory
>momentarily. I betya they're excusable too, no?

Excuse me. Let me improve this one for you then. After the Ottoman
Empire lost World War I, the British landed in 1919 a 200,000 Greek
army in Izmir to exterminate the people of Turkiye. Are you suffering 
from a severe case of amnesia? The tired and defeated Turks rose up,
formed a National Force under the leadership of Mustafa Kemal, and
on August 30, 1922 they annihilated the bulk of the Greek Army.
How soon you people forget? 

>> Recently, students in the university-level specialist schools 
>> voted to select the most dynamic, in their opinion, European 
>> companies. They voted French, German, Italian, British, 
>> Spanish ... no Greek. They did not remember themselves? Maybe. 

>Ask the same questions in a US business school and see if you get any
>US companies other than Walmart ('cause they sell $1.97 (less than
>Kmart) 100% cotton "Made in Turkey" shirts) I bet Sony, Honda, Toyota,
>etc come in first there as well. You don't see anyone foaming about it.

Whatever happened to 'K-Mart, Sears, IBM, HP, DEC, United Airlines, 
GM, Ford, Citibank,...?' Amnesia?

>> Hasan B-) Mutlu [and obligatory road kill signature]

>PS: I saw from the message header that your message has been cross-posted
>across half the known universe. I trust my message was cross-posted as
>well? It's kinda hard to have a dialog where only one side can post.

No sweat.

Hasan B-) Mutlu

                     'Kill Turks and Kurds wherever you find them 
                      and in whatever circumstances you find them. 
                      Turkish children also should be killed as 
                      they form a danger to the Armenian nation.' 
                                     (Hamparsum Boyadjian - 1914)