HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dlb@fanny.wash.inmet.com (David Barton)
Subject: Re: NLP Patterns for Dealing With Procrastination and Improving Self Esteem.
Organization: Intermetrics Inc., Washington Division, USA
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 15:48:36 GMT

In article <1992Oct2.171042.7627@philabs.philips.com>
ehf@philabs.philips.com (Eberhard Fisch) writes:

   Perhaps someone can give me som info or point me to the appropriate
   literature.

   1) Are there any visualization based NLP techniques for improving
   self-esteem. I've read many of the NLP books and haven't seen any
   specific pattern to deal with this.

   2) Other than 6 step reframing, installing a new strategy for
   motivation, and the meta model, are there any NLP patterns
   specifically developed to deal with procrastination?

   Thanks ahead of time for any information.

I have mostly stayed out of the NLP flame wars, in spite of my
interest.  However, this is a sufficiently clear example of the "magic
answer" request that I cannot let it pass by.

NLP is too often touted as having a series of clear-cut answers to
unique problems.  The human psyche is more complex than that.  When
most techniques are taught, a number of sample "problems" for which
they are frequently useful are given.  These are guidelines, not laws.
There is no magic wand here.

To address (not answer) your specific questions: self_esteem is a
phrase that covers a vast multitude of subjects and areas.  A lot
depends on how you represent your opinion of yourself to yourself.  At
a guess, some of the belief change and state change procedures would
be helpful; however, this is only a guess.

Motivation is also a fairly broad subject.  Reframing and strategy
alteration are the two most often applied techniques, but they are
certainly not the only ones.  Belief change procedures may also be
applicable here, as well as submodality shifts concerning your
representation of what you are procrastinating.

Most NLP courses provide exercises that apply specific techniques ---
this is the purpose of the exercise.  In addressing a problem outside
the classroom, spending time gathering information is extremely
valuable.  From your description, I would guess that not enough time
has been spent figuring out how you represent your problem and what
changes would be effective.  Ecology issues come to mind here ---
there may be VERY good reasons why the change you are seeking has not
taken place.

					Dave Barton
					dlb@hudson.wash.inmet.com
Xref: sparky sci.psychology:3931 alt.postmodern:2413
From: rc@depsych.Gwinnett.COM (Richard Carlson)
Newsgroups: sci.psychology,alt.postmodern
Subject: Re: Deconstructing Bullies and Wimps
Date: 28 Sep 92 11:17:07 GMT

jpk@Ingres.COM (Jon Krueger) writes:

> 
> What experiment would you devise to test any of this?
> 
> -- Jon
> --
> Jon Krueger  jpk@ingres.com  

Which?  My notion that the "phantasy engine" driving those
narratives where the wimp triumphs over the bully is similar to
the sadomasochistic masturbation fantasies of paraphiliacs?  [NB:
I am _not_ saying that the writers of these stories are
paraphiliacs elaborating a masturbation fantasy.  I think Freud
was right in seeing paraphilias as extreme cases of normal
mechanisms.]  I don't see any experimental scientific way to do
anything like that.  It's just a thought that came to me after
going over and over these narratives zillions of times, and toying
with writing my own version.  It seemed to me that I was wandering
in someone's primal nightmare or fantasy or something like that.

Or my idea, not emphasized in my post, that deconstructing these
narratives gives us insight into our own intersubjective,
narrative reality?  I do that every day in my office.  I sit with
kids watching these narratives on videotape -- I videotape every
sitcom episode I can find that has a bully in it -- and
deconstructing them.  Over time I expect to find evidence in a
scientific enough format -- clinical and even behavioral (scores
on ratings scales and numbers of times the parents are called into
the school, etc. ) -- to support the idea that understanding how
narratives import values into our minds gives us greater
understanding of and control over our values.

--
Richard Carlson
Internet:              rc@depsych.gwinnett.COM
Bangpath:              {rutgers,ogicse,gatech}!emory!gwinnett!depsych!rc
CompuServe:            76605,470
Voice:                 (404) 881-6877
Newsgroups: sci.psychology
From: coleman@rocky.cs.ucla.edu (Mike Coleman)
Subject: Re: Info Learned Helplessness
Organization: UCLA, Computer Science Department
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 19:19:16 GMT

You might look at Seligman's semi-popular book _Learned Optimism_.  He has
apparently done some work with learned helplessness, and I think the book
should have some leads.

-- 
--Mike Coleman (coleman@cs.ucla.edu), Lord High Executioner of Anhedonia-----
     Q: And you program in BASIC, of course...  A: Not even at gunpoint.
Newsgroups: sci.psychology
From: elane@ho06.eng.ua.edu (Elizabeth Lane)
Subject: Re: NLP and what the .... are we talking about???
Organization: The University of Alabama, Tuscaloosa
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 15:56:04 GMT

In article <1992Sep29.005236.19186@ucc.su.OZ.AU> ben@archsci.arch.su.oz.au (Ben Colbron) writes:

>which underlies them. If the theory is untenable, the results must
>be brought into question.

Most branches of science and social science are moving toward a rejection
of that oh-so-postivistic model. There are things in physics that we must
take "on faith," because there is no way to "prove" the theory. Many of
the most convincing models of social theory and social science being
presented these days argue that you must accept the "duality" of 
studying people--they don't always do what you think, and what you think
will affect what they do. (cf people like Anthony Giddens and Jurgen
Habermas; primary application is sociology, but can be applied to
psychological research as well)

NLP was created by people who said "Hey, this seems to work, and right now
we're mor interested in helping people who need help than in proving the
theory to be 'tenable'."

>Having said that, however, we may be talking at cross-purposes here.
>You seem to be discussing NLP from a purely pragmatic point of view
>(in terms of its 'usefulness') and not holding it up as a psychological
>theory. [Here I must apologise, I have not read all the posts on NLP
>and may be merely restating the obvious, but...]

Pragmatics are starting point. We know that the universe was created.
That's pretty pragmatic. All the rest of the theorizing about big bangs
and black holes keeps coming back to the pragmatic knowledge--the
*observables*--of existence. To reject results because they don't fit a
theory that already exists is *exactly* what the NLP folks have 
avoided, and their techniquies continue to get results.
>
>If NLP 'works' for you - great. I hear religion works sometimes, too.
>So do sugar pills labelled "aspirin". As a scientific psychologist, however,
>I am trained not to take such 'results' at face value but to investigate
>*how* and *why* such phenomena 'work'. 

I don't think many practicioners (or happy products) of NLP would argue
that the process should *not* be studied. However, there is a tendency 
among "scientific psychologists" to assert that *because* there is not yet
a "solid theoretical basis" for NLP that it can't work. That kind of 
reasoning causes a lot of the rift, I think.

Elizabeth Lane
University of Alabama


Newsgroups: sci.psychology
From: g580785c@edinboro.edu
Newsgroups: sci.psychology
Subject: Re: to kill a virtual god
Date: 28 Sep 92 17:34:00 GMT
Organization: Edinboro University of Pennsylvania

Tell me more.
From: blz1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Betsy L Zucker)
Newsgroups: sci.psychology
Subject: Re: reliability via e-mail
Date: 5 Oct 92 14:41:32 GMT
Reply-To: blz1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Betsy L Zucker)
Organization: Columbia University


In article 7472 of sci.psychology, bjm@altair.csustan.edu (Barb Moose) writes:

> I am getting ready to crank up the old research, and am wondering if
> anyone out there has any information on reliability of data obtained
> via e-mail.

Gosh, Barb, how are you going to know whether to trust the responses
you get to this query?	Sorry, I couldn't resist. :-)

	     %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
	       Jeff Zucker  c/o  <blz1@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu>
	     %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
From: pbray@lust.reed.edu (Peter Bray)
Newsgroups: sci.psychology
Subject: conditioning
Date: 30 Sep 92 01:22:00 GMT
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR



Backward classical conditioning DOES exist!
From: elane@ho07.eng.ua.edu (Elizabeth Lane)
Newsgroups: sci.psychology
Subject: Re: NLP and what the .... are we talking about???
Date: 1 Oct 92 19:45:13 GMT
Article-I.D.: ua1ix.1992Oct01.194513.165594
Organization: The University of Alabama, Tuscaloosa

In article <1992Oct1.014102.18423@pony.Ingres.COM> jpk@Ingres.COM (Jon Krueger) writes:
>
>As is customary with these kinds of statements, neither
>the teller nor the listener understands the physics
>referred to.  Yet it is used as an example and usually
>accepted as a valid one.  Perhaps to some it then appears

My, my. Aren't *we* hostile. Thans for pointing out my complete and
utter lack of understanding. I suppose it's my own fault for basing my
statements on such widely scorned books as _The Dancing Wu Li Masters_, 
_The Tao of Physics_, _A Brief History of Time_, and _Stalking the Wild
Pendulum._ Were a *real* scientists, I wouldn't have wasted my time
with books that present the concepts of physics in comprehensible
prose.

>So a suggestion: skip the authoritative sounding physics.
>Either find an example we can understand or make your
>point without.

If we were all to post only articles that the collective "you" can 
understand, it would bring conversations on the networks to a screeching
halt, and remove any potential for learning and intellectual growth
that discourse provides. Keep in mind that you always have the option to
stop reading when the incomprehensibility of the posts gets to be too 
much for you.		

Elizabeth Lane
University of Alabama
From: bill@nsma.arizona.edu (Bill Skaggs)
Newsgroups: sci.psychology
Subject: Re: The Tao of Physics
Date: 1 Oct 92 04:47:27 GMT
	<1992Sep29.005236.19186@ucc.su.OZ.AU>
	<1992Sep30.155604.144713@ua1ix.ua.edu>
	<1992Oct1.014102.18423@pony.Ingres.COM>
Organization: ARL Division of Neural Systems, Memory and Aging, University of
	Arizona

jpk@Ingres.COM (Jon Krueger) writes:

   > It's said that the scientists who read Kapra knew the
   > science was pretty poor but thought the Zen was real neat.
   > And the Zen folks knew the Zen was pretty poor but
   > thought the science was real neat.

Capra's science was actually pretty good at the time, though some of
it is now out of date.  "The Tao of Physics" still works as a decent
introduction to the perplexities of quantum mechanics, so long as you
realize that the bootstrap theory is no longer viable.

	-- Bill
From: baltman@prodigal.psych.rochester.edu (Brian Altman)
Newsgroups: sci.psychology
Subject: Looking for a list of adjectives associated with romantic jealousy
Date: 4 Oct 92 02:54:39 GMT
Organization: University of Rochester (Rochester, NY)

I am researching romantic jealousy. I'd like to be able to include a list
of ten or more adjectives commonly associated with romntic jealousy that
I can have the subjects rate in order of importance to them. Does anyone
know where I might find such a list?

If nothing pans out within a week or two I'll have to fall back to asking a
bunch of people on the net to e-mail me a list of two or three adjectives
that best describes how they feel when they are feeling jealous and try to
compile my own list.

Thanx.

-Brian
Newsgroups: sci.psychology
From: probst@selkirk.sfu.ca (Scott Probst)
Subject: Re: NLP and what the .... are we talking about???
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 03:46:48 GMT

In article <BvnxuE.4Mv@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ffujita@s.psych.uiuc.edu (Frank Fujita) writes:
>probst@selkirk.sfu.ca (Scott Probst) writes:
>>>>oh? is really a claim made about NLP? i thought claims about theory-free
>>>>observation went out about the time that Skinner bit the big one on that
>>>>very point...
>>>Oh?  I still see people using Aristotelean (sp) physics.  
>>okay, okay, you've got me now... can you explain that in less than a screenful
>>of words? thanks.
>
>Basically, nothing ever 'goes out.'  People will cling to old ideas for
>a *very* long time.  So, we will have people making claims about
>theory-free observations forever, or about 1000 years after people no
>longer use aristetelian (sp) physics (e.g. an object in motion tends to
>come to rest...).
>
oh - okay, now i'm with you. yes, indeed. i guess my outburst was rhetorical,
properly speaking...

scott
Newsgroups: sci.psychology
From: kishon-amir@CS.YALE.EDU (amir kishon)
Subject: looking for an on-line psychological abstracts database
Organization: Yale University Computer Science Dept., New Haven, CT 06520-2158
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 13:57:51 GMT


For my wife's Ph.D. research I am looking for an on-line psychological
abstracts database that can be accessed via the net. Any information
will be much appreciated.

Amir Kishon
Newsgroups: sci.psychology
From: teruddick@apollo.davidson.edu
Subject: Industrial/Organizational Psych.
Organization: Davidson College, Davidson, NC
Reply-To: teruddick@apollo.davidson.edu
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 19:26:19 GMT
X-Posted-From: apollo.davidson.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

I am currently working on a research paper for my I/O Psychology class on 
leadership.  (Sorry, haven't gotten around to narrowing it down anymore than
that)  I would greatly appreciate any information on where I can find stuff
to help with my paper....  

Thanks alot...
From: zorrilla@cattell.psych.upenn.edu (Eric Zorrilla)
Newsgroups: sci.psychology
Subject: Re: Info Learned Helplessness
Date: 30 Sep 92 19:31:57 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

Look it up in psych info with particular attention to the following names:

Seligman, Maier, Overmeier, Abramson and Teasdale.



-- 
[--------------------------------------+--------------------------------------]
| Eric Zorrilla - Dept. of Psychology  | zorrilla@cattell.psych.upenn.edu     |
| University of Pennsylvania           | 3815 Walnut, Philadelphia, PA 19104  |
[--------------------------------------+--------------------------------------]
Newsgroups: sci.psychology
From: jpk@Ingres.COM (Jon Krueger)
Subject: Re: NLP and what the .... are we talking about???
Followup-To: talk.philosophy.misc
Reply-To: jpk@Ingres.COM (Jon Krueger)
Organization: Ingres Division, ASK Computer Systems.
Date: 30 Sep 92 00:34:48 GMT

Kawika Ohumukini writes:
>>> What I do subscribe to is results.  
>> And how do you measure them?
> by my values and beliefs which are dynamic.

That's nice.  Try talk.philosophy.misc, alt.consciousness,
alt.postmodern, talk.religion.misc.

-- Jon

Jon Krueger  jpk@ingres.com
From: chris@kbsw1 (Chris Kostanick 806 1044)
Newsgroups: sci.psychology
Subject: Re: NLP and what the .... are we talking about???
Date: 2 Oct 92 20:36:03 GMT
Reply-To: chris@kbsw3.UUCP (Chris Kostanick 806 1044)
Organization: Kentek Information Systems

Elizabeth, do you have some examples of physics "that we just have
to take on faith"? If a physics thought doesn't have a testable
component it gets labeled a "speculation" and not a theory.

Chris Kostanick
Newsgroups: sci.psychology
Subject: Restarting emotional development
Supersedes: <92277.191155IO20594@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Organization: University of Maine System
Date: Sunday, 4 Oct 1992 12:07:32 EDT
From: <IO20594@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>


I think that this will be a change of subject from what I've seen so far on the
list, and I hope it will initiate a new discussion.  I wanted to talk about
a program that I saw a while ago (date?) on child developement.  I'm sorry
but I can't recall the name of the program.  It was broadcasted
on a viewer supported television station (MPBN- in Maine) within the
last few years.  One segment in the program was narrated by an "old"
man (name?) who believed that a child's/ baby's emotional
development would be stopped at whatever point the parents stopped
giving the emotional support that the child required. For example,
if a mother rejected her new-born and refused him/her any attention
other than that given while feeding, the baby would grow physically,
but not emotionally.  In fact, when the child became a teenager
his/her emotional "development" would still be that of a baby and
(s)he would remain in that state even as (s)he physically grew into
adulthood. But, now this is the interesting part, the gentleman
narrating claimed that the e. development missed, could still take
place even after its' proper time to take place, provided the person
concerned could get exactly the kind of emotional care (s)he
should have had at the time her/his development stopped.
.........

It wasn't so much my intent to discuss the merits or validity of the
emotional development restart idea, but rather, I was hoping people
might want to talk about _HOW_ such an idea might work.  For example,
how would a young adult person with the history that I just described,
get parent-like support from people other than his/her biological
parents?

Even if an "adopted parent" (maybe mentor is a better word) could be
found, there would be still the problem of dealing with some rather
unusual factors.  Some things that come to my mind are the following:

   Gaining the young adult person's trust.  No doubt a terribly
   difficult task considering (s)he got zippo from her biological
   parents for 2 decades.

   And the young adult person, is but isn't a child anymore.   THere's no
   reason to assume that her/his intellectual abilities were impaired, so (s)he
   probably thinks and uses reason at least as well as anyone else her age.
   What part, if any, would this play in the arrangement?

   WHat about discipline?  I don't think it would be appropriate to
   say, "go to your room, your behavior is appalling."  In a way
   you're still dealing with an adult.

   I would think that setting limits/setting personal boundaries would
   be quite appropriate.

   And finally, what about the demands that would be put on the mentor-
   (s)he would be doing alot of giving and not getting much back, at
   least emotionally.  How could someone handle that?


Hope to hear others' thoughts to any part of the last part of this post.
Newsgroups: sci.psychology,git.psych.students.grad,soc.college.grad,soc.college.gradinfo
From: gn@cc.gatech.edu (toM o. genesE)
Subject: Graduate Study Clinical Psychology Related Disciplines
Reply-To: gn@cc.gatech.edu (toM o. genesE)
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 01:51:57 GMT

Hello,

I have several questions in regards to graduate study in clinical
psychology related disciplines, specifically degrees and the programs
associated with them.  From talking to several professors, as well as
digging through the APA graduate study guide, I have noted well
defined clinical psychology related concentrations, which I've listed
below.

	1. Clinical psychology: Research model (Ph.D.)
	2. Clinical psychology: Practitioner model (Psy.D./Ph.D. ?)
	3. Psychiatry (M.D. ?)

I have a fairly clear idea as to what is involved in research-model
based clinical psychology programs: the student is trained in subareas
of the field and initiated to the scientific research methodology
paradigm.

I am more interested, however, in the latter two concentrations
mentioned above.  Of them, I have the weakest grasp (but the most
interest) on the training process for psychiatry.  Given a student who
just graduated with a baccalaureate, what is the next step in
psychiatric training?  Does this student enter a graduate school in
some psychology-related subarea, or does s/he enter medical school?
In the former case, what subarea; and in the latter, must the student
pursue a full-blown medical program (if not, then what?)?  In either
case, how much will the undergraduate area of study influence/hinder
this graduate/medical school training (and admissions as well)?

The reason I left the practitioner-model clinical psychology program
for last is that I am uncertain as to how similar it would be to
psychiatry.  That is, what can a practicing psychiatrist do for
patients that a practicing clinical psychologist cannot, and visa
versa?  Is it just a matter of drug distribution to patients?  If so,
how detrimental is this to the clinical psychologist?  Basically, I am
looking for characteristic tasks of practicing psychiatrists and
clinical psychologists.  In other words, what does a "practice" mean
to each?

I know that I've asked quite a few questions, but I have some serious
choices to make very soon, and I would appreciate any assistance from
the net.  Please respond via email.  Thanx.

gn
Newsgroups: sci.psychology
From: scannon@bluemoon.rn.com (Sam Cannon)
Subject: Re: Ecstasy
Organization: Blue Moon BBS ((614) 868-998[024])
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 92 22:21:17 EDT

RE: MDMA
I don't have any personal experience with the drug, but I've heard
that the original therapeutic focus was the increase in rapport without
any particular addictions or side problems.  Sounds like soma to me!
I would enjoy knowing about the discovery of the drug and how it
moved so quickly from new, experimental substance to the street. It's
completely synthesized, isn't it?  No natural ingredients?  
 
I have an 'Andrew Weil' interest in this and also the peyote thing
with the Western Indians.  

It's interesting to see some interest in MDMA from the scientific
perspective.  Any interest in getting up a discussing on this 
topic?

(Will be computer-less in the Washington desert for a month, so
I might miss a response here.  Drop personal mail and we can
chat later, if you have any interest.  Ciao.

 
scannon@bluemoon.use.com        -----------------------------------------
Sam Cannon - CMHC Systems, Inc.  The Eupsychian Network - Abraham Maslow
Dublin, OH (614) 764-0143       -----------------------------------------
                                           
                "Support mental health or I'll kill you"