HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cd353@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Norman Spiney)
Subject: Rockets and fuel questions
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 00:45:21 GMT


Does anyboby have the designs for reasonably large black powder
rockets (ie 1 in tube diameter and above). All attempts we have
made so far have resulted in rather large black powder crackers.
Specifically, what materials are used for the venturie and how 
are they made? 
Also, has anybody made cast composite fuel rockets with polyester
resins (ie fibreglass resin). We have some KClO4 but would prefer
to use NH4NO3 if it can be sensitised. If someone knows of an
easy and efficient way to make NH4ClO4 from NaClO3, I would love
to hear it.
Lastly, does someone know of a rocket club in Australia. I feel
a little isolated out here.

Thanks,
Mark.
fernee@physics.uq.oz.au
From: hollis@titan.ksc.nasa.gov
Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
Subject: Re : Rocket fuel?
Date: 3 Sep 92 13:27:11 EST
Organization: NASA, Kennedy Space Center

Greetings and Salutations:

I have a little different perspective on pyrotechnics (obviously...)

From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
(on a discussion about melting KClO3/sugar for rocket fuel)
>I experimented with it a bit, when I was much younger. I found that it is
>somewhat shock/friction sensitive. It burned with a lot of sputtering and
>spitting of small particles.

Would the mixture work any better if instead of melting the KClO3/sugar,
it was held together with en epoxy or some other type of binder (of course with
a center hole / core for lighting it with)?
 
-----------------------------------------------
Ken Hollis  INTERNET: HOLLIS@TITAN.KSC.NASA.GOV
            SPAN/HEPnet: KSCP00::HOLLIS
From: saltzman@crd.ge.com (Bob Saltzman)
Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
Subject: Re: Rocket Fuel question
Date: 28 Aug 92 14:52:01 GMT
Reply-To: saltzman@crd.ge.com
Organization: GE Corporate Research & Development, Schenectady, NY

In article <1992Aug26.205935.15422@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com>, billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
>syspb@smartstar.com (Paul) writes:
>: Where was this rocket fest?  In Idaho?  I would like to attend if there is
>: another one.  Is this some type of annual event?
>
>This was at the Pyrotechnics Guild International convention. It is an annual
>event - held in august. The next on is scheduled for North Dakota - I believe
>Fargo.
>
>Bill

Rumor has it that PGI is coming back east to Weedsport, NY again soon,
maybe in '94.  Anyone able to confirm this?

Bob Saltzman
Empire State Fireworks
Duanesburg, NY
==============================================================================
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Information System Operation        Snailnet: Bldg KW, Room C120, PO Box 8
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==============================================================================
Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
From: ahahma@polaris.utu.fi (Arno Hahma)
Subject: Re: Making Aluminium powder
Organization: University of Turku
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 92 08:16:08 GMT

In article <samw.715234213@bucket> samw@bucket.rain.com (Sam Warden) writes:

>Surely someone here knows how _real_ pyro aluminum is made.  

It depends on the sort of pyro aluminum. Flake aluminum is made by
grinding mechanically, bright pyro aluminum by atomizing (using
pressurised air for stabilised Al, nitrogen or argon for more
reactive) and dark pyro by burning a combination of paper and aluminum
foil under a strong air blow (sort of atomizing as well). 

All of these contain some impurities. The flaked aluminum usually
contains some grease (origin: mechanical grinding), the bright pyro is
oxide coated and the dark pyro is the most impure. It contains some
carbon (hence the color), ash, Al-oxide, etc. in addition to Al.

>samw@bucket.rain.com (Sam Warden) -- and not a mere Device.

ArNO
    2



Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
From: bednarek@picard.med.ge.com (Dennis Bednarek Mfg 4-6971)
Subject: Re: rocket fuel question
Organization: GE Medical Systems, Magnetic Resonance
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 92 09:23:19 GMT

Mike Van Pelt (mvp@netcom.com) wrote:
: In article <1992Aug29.211429.11722@pellns.alleg.edu> dblackbu@carr11.alleg.edu (David Blackburn) writes:
: >Does anyone moderate this board to keep people from killing themselves?
: 
: Nope.
: 
: Think of it as evolution in action.
: 
: Seriously, though, the most that can probably be done is to point out the
: worst of the boners - Like the genius a few months back who recommended
: milling a mixture of powdered aluminum, potassium chlorate, and sulfur
: in a rock tumbler for a week.
: 
: The trick is to point it out in such a way that the would-be cloud of
: pink mist will read, think, and hopefully reconsider.  Or, at least,
: be more careful.
: 
: Caveat detonator.


Another point is that many of the special ingredients are not readily
available at your local hardware store, which slows down the really
stupid individuals.
	: -- 
: Mike Van Pelt          | What happens if a big asteroid hits Earth?
: mvp@netcom.com         | Judging from realistic simulations involving a
:                        | sledge hammer and a common laboratory frog, we
:                        | can assume it will be pretty bad. -- Dave Barry

--

  
###############################################################################
###NEVER - NEVERMORE###########################################################
###############################################################################
####################################What are the contents of the oblong box?##
###############################################################################
  The usual disclaimer of self and employer applies to all above comments.
#
Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
From: fernee@newton.physics.uq.oz.au (Mark Fernee)
Subject: Re: rocket fuel question
Organization: Physics Dept. The University of Queensland
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 03:27:12 GMT

In article <1992Sep1.010044.26094@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com>, billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
: 
|> : KClO3 + sugar should burn faster than KNO3 + sugar, but I would hate to have
|> : it ignite at an inconvenient time, it could be very dangerous. I would be 
|> : very careful with any chlorate mixture, definitely try KNO3+sugar first,
|> : it is very much safer to melt. After all, from experience you generally
|> : want to slow down the burn rate.
|> : 
|> : Mark.
|> 
|> Yep. I meant KClO3. I don't think the nitrate/sugar mix will burn fast
|> enough. 
|> 
|> You are right about the chlorates - they should all be treated with great
|> caution. This is even more true if sulfur or a metal is present. KClO3
|> mixed with just about any fuel can be made to explode - sometimes violently.
|> 
|> I would stick with the black powder variations. Since you are looking for
|> propulsion instead of an explosion, the mix does not have to be as intimate.
|> I believe both Lancaster and Davis list several mixtures, as well as 
|> recommendations on blending.
|> 
|> Bill

Absolutely! For those who are not aware; Chlorate + fuel = Sprengel explosive

Even Sprengel explosives are no longer used due to the instability of Chlorate
mixtures. I believe there have been some horrendous accidents resulting.

So be careful!

Mark.
From: Jeremiah.Blatz@dartmouth.edu (Jeremiah Blatz)
Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
Subject: Smoke rockets (Re: Rockets and fuel questions)
Date: 27 Aug 92 01:51:57 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH

In article <1992Aug26.004521.24018@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>
cd353@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Norman Spiney) writes:

> Does anyboby have the designs for reasonably large black powder
> rockets (ie 1 in tube diameter and above).

Well, I just made a smoke bomb by melting KNO3 and sugar together. I
poured it into a cardboard casing (made as described in the gopher
files) and plugged the top (except for around the fuse) with some
low-melt plastic. When I lit it, it blew smoke out of the top with
considerable force. I don't know if it was enough force to lift
anything, but it sounds like a fun project for tonight...

Jeremiah
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
Subject: Re: rocket fuel question
Date: 2 Sep 92 16:22:04 GMT
Article-I.D.: hpcvaac.1992Sep2.162204.4602
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA

brad@slammer.UUCP (Brad Isley) writes:
: >
: >Melt black powder? I doubt if it would do that before igniting. Are you
: >sure you are not thinking about KCLO3/sugar? That is often mixed and melted
: >for pouring into a casing. It also ignites accidentally from the heat, on
: >occasion. Use care and do it outdoors away from flammable objects.
: 
: Hmmm...  Methinks our watchdog let a booboo slip by here.  Did you mean
: KNO3 and sugar?  I think so.  KNO3/sugar is indeed a popular rocket fuel.
: It works quite well and has been mentioned here as rocket fuel many times.

Don't count on me being a "watchdog". I am a long way from being highly
knowledgeable about the subject. 

Yeah. See my own follow-up posting. People have claimed to have melted and
used a KClO3/sugar mixture as a rocket fuel. However, I cannot find a formula
in any of my references for such a mixture. I am not curious enough about  
such things to try it myself. I avoid pyrotechnic formulas where I have to
heat the mixture before it is useable.

: I have seen KClO3/sugar burn, and I'd never even consider melting the mix.
: It's quite dangerous, yes.  If you want to see how dangerous, CAREFULLY mix
: some (gently, that is, about a gram or so to start).  Then with a remote
: device, let a drop of sulfuric acid touch it.  It DO burn fast.  I lit
: up my front yard (and scared the pants off myself) one night with this
: demo (I used a half ounce of mix).

I experimented with it a bit, when I was much younger. I found that it is
somewhat shock/friction sensitive. It burned with a lot of sputtering and
spitting of small particles. My experiments never did burn rapidly - no 
more so than thermite or KMnO4/glycerin. But then, I never did make an
intimate mixture either - just dumped them together and mixed them with a
stainless steel spoon. I was smart enough to avoid breathing the fumes.
It was interesting, but I could not think of any practical use for the
mix.

Let me emphasize here that I have no idea what the proportions were. It
was a random mixing. Other proportions could, and would, react differently.

As I have stated before - it is best to stay away from chlorate mixtures,
if at all possible. In most cases, there are others that will work fine.

Bill
From: pierson@empror.enet.dec.com (dave pierson)
Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
Subject: Re: Rocket Fuel question
Keywords: PGI, Fargo, N Dakota
Date: 27 Aug 92 23:33:18 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation

In article <1992Aug27.183047.22191@cis.ohio-state.edu>,
rubin@lagoon.cis.ohio-state.edu (Daniel Rubin) writes, quoting Bill Nelson:

>>This was at the Pyrotechnics Guild International convention. It is an annual
>>event - held in august. The next on is scheduled for North Dakota - I believe
>>Fargo.
	Right.  Acording to the current plan.

>North Dakota !! Darn it I though it was going to be held out east next year !
	Longish story.  It pingponged.  Its in Fargo.  Plan now....

>I have an article saved somewhere stating that the convention next year will
>be held in Pennsylvania somewhere, but I can't find it in my vast stockpile
>of saved mail and news...
	Year after, 1994, is scheduled for PA.  Name escapes me, but Western
	part of the state.  Newcastle???

thanks
dave pierson			|the facts, as accurately as i can manage,
Digital Equipment Corporation	|the opinions, my own.
146 Main St			|I am the NRA.
Maynard, Mass	
01754				pierson@majsty.enet.dec.com
"He has read everything, and, to his credit, written nothing."  A J Raffles
Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
From: samw@bucket.rain.com (Sam Warden)
Subject: Re: Perchlorate manufacture 
Organization: Rick's Home-Grown Un*x
Date: 31 Aug 92 21:35:58 GMT

From what I've read the electrolytic perchlorate process is (or was: 
my personal library leans to the old side)  :-)  a separate stage
of manufacture run on purified, concentrated chlorate solutions
of the product from the first process cells.  I'd be interested in
the cell design and working conditions of a single-step process too.
 
For that matter, I'd like to have that information from anyone who's
gotten a benchtop Gibbs' process to work.  It's sort of a grudge.  :-)
Back in highschool I made a fairly systematic attack on that problem,
but only succeeded in building a glorified immersion heater.  :-)
I did get an identifiable crystallized sample of KClO3 by passing
electrolytic chlorine into saturated K2CO3 though.  (Has pyrotechny
inspired anyone else to do a lot of amateur chemistry that never
actually led to any useful pyrotechnics.)  :-)  :-)
-- 
 
samw@bucket.rain.com (Sam Warden) -- and not a mere Device.
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
Subject: Re: Rockets and fuel questions
Date: 3 Sep 92 20:41:39 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA

buda@star.enet.dec.com (Mark A. Buda) writes:
: 
: In article <1992Sep1.232339.1932@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com>, billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes...
: 
: >: If you find things blowing up, add some of the bottom
: >: 2 or 3 slower items.  If you do not have enough power,
: >: add the top 2-3 faster items.  Try to do them in proportion
: >: to the formula.
: > 
: >You can also slow down the reaction by adding a higher percentage
: >of charcoal to the mixture.
: 
: I thought that was whatI was saying.  I guess it did not
: come across very well.

Yeah. Your statement could be read in either way.  I interpreted it to
mean that you should keep the charcoal percentage the same, just change
the mesh size to vary the burn rate. I assumed that, when you were talking
about the "faster" and "slower" items, that you were talking about the
charcoal only.

Bill
From: fernee@newton.physics.uq.oz.au (Mark Fernee)
Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
Subject: Re: rocket fuel question
Keywords: death, dismemberment
Date: 30 Aug 92 03:42:37 GMT
Article-I.D.: bunyip.Bts2B1.7s7
Organization: Physics Dept. The University of Queensland

In article <1992Aug29.211429.11722@pellns.alleg.edu>, dblackbu@carr11.alleg.edu (David Blackburn) writes:
|> In article <6771@tekig7.PEN.TEK.COM> mitchelr@tekig6.PEN.TEK.COM (Ryan  
|> James Mitchell) writes:
|> > In article <BtpC2M.AxJ@rice.edu> stevens@horta.rice.edu (Richard  
|> Stevens) writes:
|>  (a bunch deleted here)
|> > 2)  Can someone share with me the feasibility of this combination:   
|> equal
|> > parts of zinc dust and sulfer, mixed with water to form a paste which  
|> you can
|> > set and let dry.  Will this work as a solid rocket fuel?  (In other  
|> words will
|> > this burn quick enough or even light on fire?) 
|> > 
|> > 						- Ryan Mitchell
|> 
|> You lunatic! Maybe it's just a typo, but if you can't spell sulfur you  
|> hadn't ought to be playing with it! Adding water to Zn + S can cause it to  
|> ignite in your face. Even un-confined that would not be very much fun. 
|> Does anyone moderate this board to keep people from killing themselves?
|> 
|> Dr. David Blackburn, Ph. D. Chemist


Thanks for waving your degree in our faces. I didn't know that a Ph.D. in
English was a prerequisite for starting a hobby in pyrotechnics. 
Does your comment indicate that both a Ph.D. in chemistry and physics is
required for the amateur pyrotechnician. After all, without a Ph.D. in
physics, how is one to caculate the hoop stress and specific impulse of
a home made rocket engine inorder to determine that the rocket case will
not split and that the thrust will be adequate?

This group is moderated by all who post here. This can provide an invaluable
service to all those who have an incomplete understanding of a certain course 
of action, by allowing people with real experience to enlighten them.

Let's try and prevent people from getting there fingers burnt. Constructive
critisism works far better than trying to crush someones ego.

Maybe you should read some Jung!

Mark.  (Ph. D. Physics pending....)
From: atom.grams@betabbs.newton.ma.us (Atom Grams) 
Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
Subject: HELP
Date: 24 Aug 92 22:46:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Beta BBS -=- Newton MA -=- (617)244-7053
Reply-To: atom.grams@betabbs.newton.ma.us (Atom Grams) 


        If anyone knows of any good ways inwhich to obtain such
materials as nitric acid, calcium carbide, ect. it would be most
welcome.  I know a little of the chemistry to make some of these things
thru reactions ie. making nitric acid from sodium nitrate but lack the
basic materials to do so.
        Any help from a knowledgable person would be great.

 Atom Grams
From: brad@slammer.UUCP (Brad Isley)
Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
Subject: Re: rocket fuel question
Date: 2 Sep 92 01:52:13 GMT
Organization: Just me & my computers

In article <1992Aug31.155836.14166@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com> billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
>
>Melt black powder? I doubt if it would do that before igniting. Are you
>sure you are not thinking about KCLO3/sugar? That is often mixed and melted
>for pouring into a casing. It also ignites accidentally from the heat, on
>occasion. Use care and do it outdoors away from flammable objects.

Hmmm...  Methinks our watchdog let a booboo slip by here.  Did you mean
KNO3 and sugar?  I think so.  KNO3/sugar is indeed a popular rocket fuel.
It works quite well and has been mentioned here as rocket fuel many times.

I have seen KClO3/sugar burn, and I'd never even consider melting the mix.
It's quite dangerous, yes.  If you want to see how dangerous, CAREFULLY mix
some (gently, that is, about a gram or so to start).  Then with a remote
device, let a drop of sulfuric acid touch it.  It DO burn fast.  I lit
up my front yard (and scared the pants off myself) one night with this
demo (I used a half ounce of mix).

-- 
emory!slammer!brad   (Brad Isley)
+1 404 841-4169 Work			 Nopottopeein: "Howzit Goink?"
+1 404 925-9663 Home			  The gang: "Fine, just fine."
Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
From: hreutte@dad.bgsu.edu (hans reutter)
Subject: good rocket fuels (solid)
Keywords: rocket fuel
Organization: Bowling Green State Univ.
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 20:00:56 GMT

HI,

i finally found another very interesting newsgroup: THIS ONE

you've probably heard it for soooo many times, but can somebody

tell me about some good (solid) rocket propellants (i.e. easy to

make, easy to use). Please use chem terms (KNO3) because American

names might differ from German ones...

THANKS

-hans reutter
Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
From: fernee@newton.physics.uq.oz.au 
Subject: Perchlorate manufacture 
Organization: The University of Queensland
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 08:32:04 GMT

While chlorate is easily made by electrolysis, is there an easy
way to continue the conversion to perchlorate. It seems that this
process requires a much higher current density and very good 
electrodes (ie platinum). Has anyone managed to convert chlorate 
to perchlorate using this or any other method? If so, what are
the current densities and temperatures required?

thanks,

Mark.
From: GlasNet <glasnost@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
Date: 03 Sep 92 17:51 PDT
Subject: KNO3
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1457800017:000:295
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!glasnost    Sep  3 17:51:00 1992


It seems fairly easy to purchase KNO3 in bulk; I recently
bought a 50 pound sack for about $0.32 per pound from a large
fertilizer supply company.

The manufacturer was:

Cedar Chemical Company
Memphis, TN 36127

I imagine they would respond favorably to inquiries about local
suppliers.

Dr. E

Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
From: twtan@essex.ecn.uoknor.edu (Tack Wee Tan)
Subject: sld;fkj
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 07:26:07 GMT
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA

lks;djfsl;kdfsdl;fjasdlf

-- 
***************************************
*  TACK WEE TAN -                     *
*  University of Oklahoma             *
***************************************
From: stevens@horta.rice.edu (Richard Stevens)
Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
Subject: rocket fuel question
Date: 28 Aug 1992 16:19:48 GMT
Organization: Rice University

If one wnats do design a small black powder model rocket engine, similar
to the Estes type design, what could one use to slow down the burn
rate and make the fuel less dangerous? How does one get the powder
into a solid form?

Thanks
From: syspb@smartstar.com (Paul)
Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
Subject: Re: Rocket Fuel question
Date: 26 Aug 92 16:15:27 GMT
Organization: none

Where was this rocket fest?  In Idaho?  I would like to attend if there is
another one.  Is this some type of annual event?
Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
From: hughes@gary.enet.dec.com (Gary Hughes - VMS Development)
Subject: Re: Rocket Fuel question
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 22:44:56 GMT


The model rocket engine is patented and presumably the patent discloses the
original propellant, which is of course black powder.

The patent is filed under the name of Orville Carlisle (and anyone that says
'who?' hasn't been paying attention).

BTW, in the early 70s there was a notice in 'Model Rocketeer' to the effect
that Estes engines would temporarily be in short supply as a result of an
accident at the Dow plant that was then making black powder. It certainly
sounded like they were starting with commercially made bp.

gary
From: bame@hpfcbig.SDE.HP.COM (Paul Bame)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 19:26:20 GMT
Subject: Re: Making Aluminium powder
Organization: HP SESD, Fort Collins, CO
Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics

In rec.pyrotechnics, fernee@newton.physics.uq.oz.au (Mark Fernee) writes:

> I have met a person who claims that an Aluminium clamp was
> reduced to powder when left in an ultra-sonic bath for 
> 24 hrs. 

> Has anyone else used this technique to make Al powder?
> If so, how succesful is it?

Out of curiosity, I dropped some Al foil into a relatively low-power
ultrasound cleaning machine.  First it got lots of very tiny "wrinkles"
and then lots of very tiny holes.  Sure enough it produced powder from
the foil - though it didn't do a uniform job across the whole piece
of foil leaving some places relatively undamaged.  So I guess I could believe
that a high-power machine might powder larger pieces of Al eventually...

	-P
Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics
From: fernee@newton.physics.uq.oz.au (Mark Fernee)
Subject: Re: rocket fuel question
Organization: Physics Dept. The University of Queensland
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 00:27:18 GMT

In article <1992Aug31.155836.14166@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com>, billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:

|> : Well, I was phucking around the other night and it seems that sugar is
|> : a really good inhibitor (if you don't mind the smoke). Also, you can
|> : melt gunpowder *IN AN ELECTRIC HEATER, NOT OVER A BURNER* and pour it
|> : into your rocket casing.
|> 
|> Melt black powder? I doubt if it would do that before igniting. Are you
|> sure you are not thinking about KCLO3/sugar? That is often mixed and melted
|> for pouring into a casing. It also ignites accidentally from the heat, on
|> occasion. Use care and do it outdoors away from flammable objects.
|> 
|> Bill
|> 
|> : 
|> : Jeremiah

KClO3 + sugar should burn faster than KNO3 + sugar, but I would hate to have
it ignite at an inconvenient time, it could be very dangerous. I would be 
very careful with any chlorate mixture, definitely try KNO3+sugar first,
it is very much safer to melt. After all, from experience you generally
want to slow down the burn rate.

Mark.



Newsgroups: rec.pyrotechnics