HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rstory@eci386.uucp (Robert Story)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: God Save your Queen
Date: 30 Jul 92 13:17:56 GMT
Organization: Elegant Communications Inc.

In article <12388@audetf> audetf@Software.Mitel.COM (Francois Audet) writes:
|In article (Thomas Hood) writes:
|>If Quebecers hope to remain within the Commonwealth after
|>separation, then it will be prudent for them to show
|>respect for Her Majesty.
|
|A statement like this puzzles me. How can anyone be so ignorant about
|life outside your little british sphere? The Quebecois, the natives
|and the non-british-descendent canadians all couldn't care less about
|the Queen of England (and don't give me that Queen of Canada stuff: it
|doesn't work). Furthermore, the "Queen" is for a lot of people the
|"desuet" symbol of a PAST british imperialism over the a large part of
|the world. Also, from what I can read on this newsgroup, a lot of
|"british-canadian pure-wool :-)" have outgrown their need for a Queen.
|For me, it remain a symbol past domination of one part of Canada over
|the other.
|
|And why show respect? I'd respect her more if she didn't pretend to be
|the Queen of my country.

She's NOT *pretending* to be the Queen of Canada, she IS!

So, what you're saying is that Quebec can be a distinct society
but when it comes to TROC, we can go go screw OUR heritage?

Of course, that's what you meant!  Since the '60's TROC has
attempted to recognise its Frenchness by adopting bi-lingual
(almost) everything and many non-French speaking Canadians have
been learning French and sending their children to the many
French immersion schools that have sprung up.  Of course,
during the same period Quebec made moves the opposite way in
order to rid the province of "things" English including the
language.  I was very sympathetic to Quebec until Bill 101 and
the use of the "not-with-standing" clause.  Now I believe that
there is little possibility of a deal with Quebec because it
wants too much!

I think that a better tact for the constitutional debate would
be to do nothing until the Quebec referendum in the Autumn.
Then Quebec can say if it's in or out and we can then proceed
from there.  It wold save a lot of governments' (federal and
provincial including Quebec) time for other equally important
issues such as the economy.

|             "God Save the Queen, she ain't no human being!"
|		(c) Johny Rotten (who is british)
Ah, well, this *really* lends credence to your point! (sigh)

-Robert.
-- 
 _________________________________________________________________________
 Robert.Story@Elegant.COM                      Elegant Communications Inc.
 Tel: +1 416 595 5425                         481 University Av. Suite 602
 Fax: +1 416 595 5439                     Toronto, Ontario; CANADA M5G 2E9
From: "stephanie fysh" <stephanie.fysh@canrem.com>
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: the rights of steve p
Date: 30 Jul 92 14:40:42 EST
Reply-To: "stephanie fysh" <stephanie.fysh@canrem.com>
Distribution: can
Organization: Canada Remote Systems

SCP>> Sorry, Steve, but it looks to me like you *were* told your children
SCP>> would be "expected to attend French school."  And I completely fail to
SCP>> see how this harms them.  If you use English at home, take your kids to
SCP>> English movies, read English books and newspapers, they are *not* going
SCP>> to lose their language.  Instead, they will end up *truely* bilingual,
SCP>> able to function fully in both French and English.  A "second language"
SCP>> is *not* the same thing at all.

SCP>  "expected to attend" is hardly the same thing as being "forced to
SCP>  attend whether you like it or not. We also have a number of laws
SCP>  restricting the use of English. You must not think that you can be
SCP>  a fully legitimate member of the English community in Quebec - you
SCP>  and your family must be assimilated." !!!!!

Nobody in Canada is "forced" to attend a public school.  If that were
the case, then every other type of school, including home schooling,
would be illegal.  You, personally, may not have the economic choice, or
whatever, but that is not the same as forcing.

[most of the rest deleted]

SCP>  Perhaps you would be happier if they closed the English school system
SCP>  down altogether?

Calm down already!  This isn't Bosnia-Herzigovina or Nazi Germany.  No,
I would *not* be "happier".  I just don't think that the situation is so
absolutely horrific and you make it out to be.

SCP>  Perhaps they should test all Quebec residents for French proficiency -
SCP>  anyone found to be "linguistically inadequate" could be sent back to
SCP>  school or forced to move out of the province?

SCP>  Where DO YOU draw the line?

[more deleted]

SCP>  I hope I have provoked you into taking a stronger stand on something.

I'm accustomed to taking strong stands, thank you very much.  Care to
see a resume? :)

- Stephanie.
---
  SLMR 2.1a  "I have a Cunning Plan!" - Baldrick
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario/Detroit, MI
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
From: sbo@vlsi.polymtl.ca (Stephane Boucher)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: English services in Quebec ( was Re: Biliguism)
Date: 23 Jul 92 21:48:09 GMT
	<1992Jul23.152901.1631@pandora.matrox.com>
	<23JUL92.17081923.0220@VM1.MCGILL.CA>
Organization: Ecole Polytechnique de Montreal

>>>>> On Thu, 23 Jul 1992 20:48:59 GMT, CZ94 <CZ94@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA> said:
  > Nntp-Posting-Host: vm1.mcgill.ca

  > Income tax forms are available in English, though my gratitude for
  > having to fill out two forms, when everyone else in Canada has
  > to fill out only one, is very limited.  This is a good example of
  > stupid symbolism by the Quebec government.  In theory, Quebec can
  > change its income tax rules independently of Ottawa, but in
  > practice, this never happens.  E.g. when Ottawa changes the RRSP
  > contribution limits, Quebec always does exactly the same thing.
  > Quebec taxpayers are inconvenienced every year by having to fill
  > out two returns.

But this is besides the point (see the subject line), since
everyone has to do it.

--
  ,                          ,                           ,
Stephane Boucher, ing. jr. | Ecole Polytechnique de Montreal
sbo@vlsi.polymtl.ca        | Tel: (514)340-5950
sbo@info.polymtl.ca        | Fax: (514)340-4078
From: beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Fautes de francais (was Re: Monument to de Gaulle)
Date: 25 Jul 92 15:32:28 GMT
Organization: Institut de recherche d'Hydro-Quebec, Varennes, Canada

In article <24JUL92.15725368.0070@VM1.MCGILL.CA> CZ94@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA (CZ94) writes:
>In article <BrwCs5.MxJ@ireq.hydro.qc.ca> beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard) writes:
>>In article <1992Jul23.210907.25640@spxtech.qc.ca> steven@spxtech.qc.ca (Steven C. Potter) writes:
>>>
>>>  Mr. Bouchard should take note:-
>>>
>>>  less - with or without Mr. Bouchard's approval.
>>>
>>
>>BOUCHER et BOUCHARD sont deux noms de famille differents.  Meme s'il y a
>>plus possiblement plus de BOUCHARD que de BOUCHER, il n'y a pas de raison
>>de les meler.  A moins de vivre resolument en anglais sans attacher
>>d'importance a ces faits folkhloriques que sont les noms des francophones.
>>
>Si je te comprends bien, Denis, quand Steve fait une faute de francais,
>c'est parce qu'il est un mechant colonisateur britannique qui
>meprise le fait francais au Quebec.  Mais quand toi, tu fais une
>faute d'anglais, c'est parce que Steve et moi et la reine et le
>general Wolfe, on t'opprime.  Dans un Quebec independant, tu
>pourras t'epanouir intellecutalement, et tu ne feras plus de
>faute d'anglais.  C'est a peu pres ca, ta position?
>
>Tom Box
>CZ94@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA

Completement a cote.

Je ne me rappelle pas avoir vu de citation de Lucien Bouchard recemment.
Par contre, Stephane BOUCHER est un contributeur regulier.  J'ai pense
qu'il y avait une erreur a ce niveau.  Par la suite, on a vu que ce n'tait
pas Bouchard mais un tout autre nom qui devait etre cite.  Comme ce n'etait
pas la premiere fois que j'avais une telle impression, j'ai envoye ce
message.  Comme genealogiste, j'ai vu mon nom magane assez souvent a cause
de changement de langue (tu connais les Balngard de la Gatineau, le
recenseur est un anglais qui devait compter tout le monde, ceci _apres_
1867, donc quand le fait francais avait supposement une signification
au Quebec, mais devant le nombre d'officiels unilingues anglais dans des
regions francophones, ... tiens, voila que je diverge moi aussi...).

En fait, dans le cas present, ce n'etait pas une faute de francais,
mais la possibilite de melanger 2 personnes (3 finalement ;-)  )
qui m'a fait intervenir.

-- 
  \_\    Denis Beauregard  *  internet:beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca
 /   \   Genealogiste officiel : Beauregard/Jarret/Jarest/Vincent
J   __>  Barthelemy Jarret (1471) -> Andre Jarret, sieur de Beauregard (1665)
\_.-===   -> Denis Beauregard (1992)                  Opinions ? Et pis non !
From: steve@aqua.ocunix.on.ca (no)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Bilingualism at universities (was Re: Bla, bla)
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 21:18:25 GMT
Organization: The Aquarium, Ottawa, Ontario

audetf@Software.Mitel.COM (Francois Audet) writes:

> In article (CZ94000) writes:
> >I know several students at McGill who wrote their theses in French
> >with no problem.  (I'm not claiming there are never problems.)
> 
> At least McGill (unlike Ottawa U) does not pretend it's bilingual when
> it's not.
> 
> 
> -- 
>                                                        Francois Audet
>                                                            '
>                                       Telephone: (613) 592-2121 x1754
>                           Internet: Francois.Audet@software.Mitel.COM

Francois, tu dis que l'Universite d'Ottawa n'est pas bilingue?  Tu farces si 
tu veux dire que U of O est une universite anglais???

============================================================================
                     steve@aqua.ocunix.on.ca
============================================================================
The Aquarium BBS  (613)736-1481  1200-14400 bps  V.32bis  V.42bis  HST
                      Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
============================================================================
Newsgroups: can.politics,can.general,soc.culture.canada
From: CZ94000 <CZ94@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA>
Subject: Bilingualism at universities (was Re: Bla, bla)
Organization: McGill University
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 15:28:46 GMT

In article <12372@audetf> audetf@Software.Mitel.COM (Francois Audet) writes:
>
>I followed the engineering program at the same university. All my
>courses were in english after my second year. Each year, the
>university would offer courses in both english and french and, O
>surprise!, cancel the french one a day before it started. Also, Ottawa
>U policy's is that you can present your assignments, exams, etc. in
>french or english. Tried it once: it doesn't work in the engineering
>departement (unless your corrector is francophone). When reminded that
>the the official policy is bilinguism, the teacher answers that you
>can submit your project in french, but that he won't be able to
>correct it and that therefore he would need help by a collegue and
>that "unfortunately, the mark would be lower (i.e., you fail) because
>a lot of the substance is lost in the translation."
>
McGill is not officially bilingual (very few courses are offered in
French, except in the French department), but it has a similar
policy that students can submit assignments, exams, etc. in French.
The application of this policy is not without its problems, but
I've never heard of anything quite as bad as a professor threatening
students with lower marks for work in French.  When I worked as a
teaching assistant, I used to mark assignments.  Some francophones
did them in French, some in English.  I can think of several reasons
they might choose to use English:
(1) One of the reasons they came to McGill was to improve their
English, so they want to use it as much as possible.
(2) They haven't learned the technical vocabulary needed to answer
in French.
(3) They're afraid they'll be discriminated against for using French.

There's a student association which exists to defend the rights of
the "franco-McGillois."  It sound like U of O needs a similar
organization.

BTW, the quality of the written French I saw in assignments I marked
was uniformly bad.  Many of the English assignments were badly written
too, but at least some of them were well-written (sometimes by
francophones).
>
>PS: I know students who attended unilingual french universities in
>Montreal and presented their thesis in english with no problem.
>
I know several students at McGill who wrote their theses in French
with no problem.  (I'm not claiming there are never problems.)

Tom Box
CZ94@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA
From: CZ94@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA (CZ94)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Monument to de Gaulle
Date: 24 Jul 92 00:54:58 GMT
Organization: McGill University

In article <1992Jul23.154103@IRO.UMontreal.CA> robichau@IRO.UMontreal.CA (Benoit Robichaud) writes:
>
>In article <1992Jul23.160526.1822@pandora.matrox.com>, thood@corvus.matrox.com (Thomas Hood) writes:
>|> Recently, a monument to Charles de Gaulle was unveiled in
>|> Montreal with some fanfare.
>....
>|> Here is a man who as "leader" of the French resistance against
>|> the Germans, benefitted from the generous and courageous
>|> assistance of Canada -- despite resistance from Quebecers --
>|> including the sacrifice of thousands of young Canadian
>|> soldiers.
>....
>|> There are over 200,000 Canadian soldiers buried on French soil.
>
>Il ne faudrait pas oublier que cette genereuse et courageuse assistance
>du Canada a ete mise sur pied en vue d'empecher l'avance des forces allemandes
>en territoires anglais (ou tout du moins faire cesser les bonbardements
>sur la Grande-Bretagne).

Le Canada a declare la guerre contre l'Allemagne en Septembre 1939,
quand les forces allemandes s'avancaient en Pologne.  Crois-tu
que la Pologne etait une colonie anglaise?  Crois-tu que la 2e guerre
mondiale a ete une guerre de l'imperialisme britannique?
>
>Soulignons aussi le fait que le Premier Ministre de l'epoque (M.King) a fait
>campagne au Quebec en promettant qu'il n'y aurait pas de conscription
>s'il etait elu ...
>
>Pour ce qui est de la rue Sherbrooke ... peut-etre devrions-nous
>trouvez autre chose ...

Peut-etre.  Mais veux-tu nous expliquer pourquoi?  Parce que c'est
un nom a consonnance anglaise?  Quel est le lien entre Sherbrooke,
Mackenzie King, et la reine?

>et peut-etre devrions-nous aussi bannir
>l'effigie de la Reine du Canada (car tel est son titre) sur les
>billets de banque canadiens.
>
>A la memoire de ces 200000 Canadiens qui ont, de gre ou de force,
>ete emmener a se battre au nom de M.King et de Bethy ....
>
Ils se sont battus au nom du papa de "Bethy."

Tom Box
CZ94@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA
From: beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Canada 125 - Politicaly involved?
Date: 31 Jul 92 18:36:47 GMT
Organization: Institut de recherche d'Hydro-Quebec, Varennes, Canada

In article <1992Jul30.180509.15363@csi.uottawa.ca> pete@aix1.uottawa.ca (Peter Hickey) writes:
>Wow!
>I didn't know there was anything behind the canada 125 stuff, *except*
>politics.  There's a Canada 125 booth in the Rideau Centre getting
>people to sign petitions/cards/something saying they want canada to
>be all together and happy (or something like that)
>
>Now you're telling me that there's some other reason for it?  A
>celebration?
>-- 
>Pete Hickey               | Pete@mudhead.uottawa.CA | "If a vegetarian eats
>Communication Services    |   or (if desperate)     |  vegatables, then what
>University of Ottawa      | petehic@uottawa.bitnet  |  does a humanitarian
>Ottawa,Ont. Canada K1N 6N5|  (613) 564-7646         |  eat?"

I participated to 100th Canada Birthday and can compare.  100th was
_not_ as political as 125th is.  We didn't what Canada was, but we
were celebrating it.  Now, we know what it is.  Most Quebecois won't
celebrate because of this.  In 1967, with Expo 67, etc., it was not
comparable.

-- 
  \_\    Denis Beauregard  *  internet:beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca
 /   \   Genealogiste officiel : Beauregard/Jarret/Jarest/Vincent
J   __>  Barthelemy Jarret (1471) -> Andre Jarret, sieur de Beauregard (1665)
\_.-===   -> Denis Beauregard (1992)                  Opinions ? Et pis non !
From: beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: God Save your Queen
Date: 31 Jul 92 16:35:04 GMT
Organization: Institut de recherche d'Hydro-Quebec, Varennes, Canada

In article <1992Jul30.151649.14916@teleride.on.ca> stevew@teleride.on.ca (Stephen M. Webb) writes:
>
>The Queen of Canada (yes, that's one of her titles) is most definitely a 
>foreign monarch.  If she were a native Canadian, she would have been born
>here, or at least live here.  As it is, she's the offspring of a German
>family who immigrated to England last century.  There's nothing Canadian
>about her.


I like that.  The English dynasty terminated and the next sibling that could
have the throne was living in Germany.  That person even had to learn 
English.  So, the symbol of English/British monarchy was then a complete 
foreigner.

>------- Stephen M. Webb -------

-- 
  \_\    Denis Beauregard  *  internet:beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca
 /   \   Genealogiste officiel : Beauregard/Jarret/Jarest/Vincent
J   __>  Barthelemy Jarret (1471) -> Andre Jarret, sieur de Beauregard (1665)
\_.-===   -> Denis Beauregard (1992)                  Opinions ? Et pis non !
From: beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Education
Date: 30 Jul 92 20:33:39 GMT
Organization: Institut de recherche d'Hydro-Quebec, Varennes, Canada

In article <2A77372A.381C@telly.on.ca> evan@telly.on.ca (Evan Leibovitch) writes:
>
>Didn't take a Ghandi, just someone who's more interested in equality
>than pay-back.

No improvement since 12 years.  How could I continue to expect something?

>
>And it isn't too late to change.
>
>-- 
> Evan Leibovitch, Sound Software Ltd., located in beautiful Brampton, Ontario
>         evan@telly.on.ca / uunet!utzoo!telly!evan / (416) 452-0504
>   Said Captain Jean-Luc Picard to the tailor at his machine: "Make it sew!"


-- 
  \_\    Denis Beauregard  *  internet:beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca
 /   \   Genealogiste officiel : Beauregard/Jarret/Jarest/Vincent
J   __>  Barthelemy Jarret (1471) -> Andre Jarret, sieur de Beauregard (1665)
\_.-===   -> Denis Beauregard (1992)                  Opinions ? Et pis non !
From: mackenzi@McRCIM.McGill.EDU (Paul Mackenzie)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Education
Date: 23 Jul 92 15:52:51 GMT
Distribution: can
Organization: McGill Research Centre for  Intelligent Machines
Originator: mackenzi@fire.mcrcim.mcgill.edu


In article <12342@audetf>, audetf@Software.Mitel.COM (Francois Audet) writes:

|> Lack of demand! Bullshit. It used to be illegal to teach in french in
|> a lot of provinces. People had to pretend they were educated in
|> english. Of course the demand diminished since then (because of
|> repression). That "demand" theory is pure interpretation. What
|> justifies a french schools? 5%, 10%, 20%? In Quebec, you'll find
|> english schools (for anglo-quebecois) almost anywhere. Even if you
|> have only a 5% portion of anglophones.

Why put some numerical value on 'demand' at all?  If a French school is
desired, and there are enough students to enroll in it, then what's the
problem?  There are more than a few francophone schools in Ontario, even
in areas with a <1% francophone population.  Some parents just want their
kids to learn another language, and school is the best way to do it.

Paul
From: beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: Queen and de Gaulle (was Re: Monument to de Gaulle)
Date: 31 Jul 92 18:29:15 GMT
Organization: Institut de recherche d'Hydro-Quebec, Varennes, Canada

In article <12456@audetf> audetf@Software.Mitel.COM (Francois Audet) writes:
>
>BTW: What's her real name? Is Elisabeth just a "nom d'artiste" like
>for the Pope?
>

Elisabeth Windsor.  A la limite, Elisabeth II de Hanovre.
He oui, les rois et reines, meme s'ils descendent de Dieu (le vieux
mythe tout a fait ridicule entre nous) ou s'ils sont rois par la
grace de Dieu (autre mythe que nos pieces de monnaie vehiculent
en inscrivant D.G. pour Deis Gratia), ce sont des humains et ils
ont un nom dans la _vraie_ vie.

-- 
  \_\    Denis Beauregard  *  internet:beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca
 /   \   Genealogiste officiel : Beauregard/Jarret/Jarest/Vincent
J   __>  Barthelemy Jarret (1471) -> Andre Jarret, sieur de Beauregard (1665)
\_.-===   -> Denis Beauregard (1992)                  Opinions ? Et pis non !
From: steven@spxtech.qc.ca (Steven C. Potter)
Newsgroups: can.politics,can.followup
Subject: Re: Bill 178
Date: 24 Jul 92 20:08:06 GMT
Organization: Securiplex Technologies Inc., Montreal, Canada
X-Bytes: 2376

From article <920723278@veietto.uucp>, by fveillet@veietto.uucp
 Francois Veillette writes:-

> If we stay with Canada, Quebec will continue to be defensive
> about the growing Anglophone community.
> 
> 	A bientot,
> 
> P.S. I'm not a lawer or an historian and I wrote the facts, all from
>      memory, so I could be wrong about some facts.  
> 


  I may address some of your other points later but this one is "so
  far off base" (as one says in N.A.) it can be picked out right away:-

  "growing Anglophone community." ?????????

  One of the biggest obstacle to getting the language laws relaxed to a
  tolerable level in Quebec is the persistent belief that the English
  community in Quebec is growing; that Quebec is being invaded by a wave
  of English-speaking immigrants; or that English people in Quebec refuse
  to learn French.

  I think I will see if I can find the figures for you, but I can provide
  the figures for the English school system because that is my principal
  concern:-

     There are now less than half the children in English schools in
     Quebec than there were in 1970.

     For every 10 children in English school in Quebec there is one
     English-speaking child who has been denied access.

     1/3 of English public schools that were operating in 1977 are gone.

     The percentage of the Quebec population with English mother tongue
     has decreased by 1/3 in the last 50 years.

     I also have:- 

     Quebec lost close to 122,00 English mother tongue residents in
     one decade between 1976 and 1986.

     And:-

     From 1977 to 1991 the English school system in Quebec suffered a
     53.3% drop in enrollment with a corresponding loss of 156 (31.6%)
     of its 493 schools of the time. During the same period, the French
     system lost 12.2% of its enrollment and 45 (1.7%) of its 2,539
     schools of the time. Enrollment in French schools has actually
     increased by more than 20,000 students from 1986 to 1991.

     "growing anglophone community" is a gross misperception, to say
     the least.

-- 
  ///==================================================================\\\
  ||| Steve Potter:         steven%spxtech@CAM.ORG                     |||
  ||| Expertise/Experience: Computer Systems Engineering / Real Ale /  |||
  |||                       Politics in Education in Quebec            |||
From: beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca (Denis Beauregard)
Newsgroups: can.politics
Subject: Re: "F/E" versus "Bienvenue/Welcome"
Date: 31 Jul 92 16:29:14 GMT
Organization: Institut de recherche d'Hydro-Quebec, Varennes, Canada

The past of Eaton's is known.  This would explain why they did what they did.

But, there is about 4 or 5 Eaton in Montreal area, no ?

There is a lot of Harvey's and Harvey's did not remove the 's.

I think the rule about the company name is for newly formed companies.
If the company name existed before a given date, it can be kept.
And new companies must have a French name to register it and do business.

-- 
  \_\    Denis Beauregard  *  internet:beaurega@ireq.hydro.qc.ca
 /   \   Genealogiste officiel : Beauregard/Jarret/Jarest/Vincent
J   __>  Barthelemy Jarret (1471) -> Andre Jarret, sieur de Beauregard (1665)
\_.-===   -> Denis Beauregard (1992)                  Opinions ? Et pis non !