HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Work in Progress
Date: 20 Aug 92 22:24:49 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world

Yesterday, Wednesday, wasn't a good day...I didn't get much done. Today's a
little better. I've picked up some books that will give me Celtic and
Mesoamerican vocabulary and cultural items, and I at least know that my
heroine's people are called the Airn while the bad guys are (for now) the Tlax
Kah. While their culture is pseudo-Aztec, their homeland in this parallel Earth
is southern California...an old Santa Monica boy's little joke on the strange
world down there.

Now I have some specific goals for the opening chapters:
1. Show my main characters. Yup--Deir, Calindor, the major Tlax Kah magicians
and warriors.
2. Put people under appropriate stress. Greenmagic began with a ruptured family
in a threatened society; Redmagic will begin with an orphan escaped from a
slaughtered society. Deir escapes on a tiny boat bearing the bones of her
father, and in her despair she unintentionally invokes enough magic to knock a
ship full of magicians and dragons right off course to come and rescue her.
3. Who's the good guy? Who's the bad guy? No problem--Deir, the dragons and
Calindor are our side; the Tlax Kah are gorgeous but evil.
4. What's at stake? The survival of an ecologically balanced, humane society.
If the Tlax Kah win, the future of this world is blood, slaughter and
cannibalism without end.
5. The setting: The west coast of North America in this magical world called
Sotalar. Familiar yet strange.
6. The area of conflict. Several: conflict between the Cantareans and their
former oppressors, the Badakhar, who are getting along like Serbs and Bosnians
when the story opens; the conflict within Calindor over the evil attraction of
the Tlax Kah's redmagic; the struggle, on the divine level, between Callia the
earth-goddess and the Mekhdeivush, the Great God who has put all these events
in motion.
5. Foreshadowing the ending. The girl adrift on the sea will presage a scene in
which Deir overlooks the ocean at the end of the novel, just as Greenmagic
begins and ends with Albohar's visits to the village of Tanshadabela. But where
the opening image is of a lost individual, Deir at the end is fully integrated
into a new society.
I also have to set the tone of the story--fairly somber and serious, as befits
a struggle for existence. So Redmagic is developing slowly but coherently.

Questions?
From: zrwp02@hou.amoco.com (Ronnie Powell)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Correspondence Courses for Writers - Useful or Useless
Date: 13 Aug 92 19:24:54 GMT
Reply-To: zrwp02@hou.amoco.com
Organization: Amoco


Last month I got a card from the Long Ridge Writer's Group about their correspondence
course for writers.  Without promising anything, they do make it sound like an 
attractive way to break into writing and to get published.  

Before commiting to anything, I'd like to hear some opinons on correspondence 
courses.  Are they worthwile, are they worth the money? Is it better to take some
local writing classes, join a writer's group, go to a workshop, practice, . . . ?
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: sasafw@dobo.unx.sas.com (Fred Welden)
Subject: Re: Why do you write?
Originator: sasafw@dobo.unx.sas.com
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 13:17:01 GMT
Organization: Dobonia


In article <1992Aug12.102916.29537@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>, bf455@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bonita Kale) writes:
|
|References: <24751@castle.ed.ac.uk> <1992Aug8.131453.8476@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>
|
|
|In a previous article, eoghanni@castle.ed.ac.uk (Eoghann Irving) says:
|
|>In article <1992Aug8.131453.8476@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> bf455@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bonita Kale) writes:
|>>1.  It's pleasurable to put words together to make sentences and paragraphs
|>>that do something special.  It's a real high to re-read something you wrote
|>>yourself, and be moved by it.
|>
|>      Wow, can you really read your own stories and enjoy them? I hate
|>re-reading mine. All the 'mistakes' stand out a mile. Things I thought
|>were quite subtle when I put them in positively leap out the page at me.
|>I find reading my writing about the most harrowing experience I can
|>think of.
|
|
|That seems a shame--like not being able to enjoy your own cooking.
|
[...]
|
|Is this an individual quirk, that even when you've got it revised and
|re-revised, you can't enjoy it because it's yours (sort of like not being
|able to eat something after you've smelled it cooking all day)?  Or is it
|that the story isn't finished, because you haven't seasoned it to your
|taste yet? 

My own individual quirk is that I can't bear to hear my writing read aloud, unless
it was a script intended to be read that way.  It doesn't matter whether someone
else is reading it or I'm reading it myself, I just can't stand to *hear* it.  I
have no problem at all with re-reading it silently, and I don't mind criticism of my
work, although I have to wince as the critic reads enough to identify the problem
passage.

Many writers about writing advise you to read your own work aloud to find out 
where the awkward passages are and how to rework them.  Obviously I never do this,
but even those who read my work with critical intent rarely find awkward passages.

Does anyone else out there hate to hear their own words read back to them?  I'm sure
once I'm a bestselling blockbuster author I'm going to get into trouble by refusing
to do readings. (Hah!)
-- 
--Fred, or another blind 8th-century BC  |  sasafw@dobo.unx.sas.com
        Hellenic poet of the same name.  |
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: swkmorri@nuscc.nus.sg (Perry Morrison (Dr))
Subject: Re: "Wow, You're a Writer!"
Organization: National University of Singapore
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 04:29:23 GMT

s0067284@ursa.calvin.edu (Jeffrey Veen) writes:
: swkmorri@nuscc.nus.sg (Perry Morrison (Dr)) writes:
: 
: >Even worse, I've encountered an attitude amongst publishers and
: >editors that runs: "Anyone can write--it's just that most of us
: >choose not to..."

: Anyone _CAN_ write.  It is a skill that can be taught; just like playing the
: bagpipes or dirving a forklift.  Most simply don't understand that in order
: to be good, you must practice, daily, and work as hard as you do at any job.

Perhaps I should have been more explicit. Since I was quoting from
commercial publishers' statements, I was really referring to the
notion that ANYONE can be a commercially published writer or even financially 
support themselves by writing. This is clearly untrue as evidenced by the tiny 
fraction of writers who actually do it (not that I envy them though) and
by the large number of people in Western societies who are either
functionally or totally illiterate or not blessed with any sense or
appreciation of how to write--no matter how much training they are
given.

While anyone can certainly plunk a guitar string and call it making music, 
there are huge numbers of people who do not have the inherent ability to
either entertain others with these sounds or support themselves financially 
through music (such as myself). No amount of tuition, practice or whatever 
will change that fact--although I may personally enjoy it and believe that I 
make "music". What I choose to call myself-- a musician, a hobbyist or
whatever is an individual choice.

It is my sincere belief that just as some people are tone deaf, others
are deaf to dialogue, plot, characterization or basic structure of
writing (of any kind) despite having the mechanics of reading and
writing. Such people may call themselves writers (and why not?) or
anything else, but that does not mean that they have the capacity to
entertain others with their activities or produce something that others
(publishers or readers) will buy.

On reflection, I think the statement I quoted- "Anyone can write...it's
just that some of us choose not to..." actually reflects a kind of
jealosy or bitterness amongst some publishing staff---many of whom
are frustrated writers or writers who have temporarily or permanently
stopped writing.

perry morrison
From: coyote@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (cats)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Editorial jobs
Date: 12 Aug 92 14:38:05 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center


     My name is Jana Lynn Bowling, and I am a sophomore at Purdue University.  I am an English/Journalism major and I plan on pursueing a career in publishing.
     I am looking for employment through correspondence, where I would receive manuscripts from publishers, read, edit, and/or proofread them, and return.
     If anyone could give me advice or any leads in this endeavor, please e-mail me at 
              coyote@mentor.cc.purdue.edu

thank you,
jana
From: jtchew@csa3.lbl.gov (JOSEPH T CHEW)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Strunk and White
Date: 14 Aug 92 16:53:01 GMT
Reply-To: jtchew@csa3.lbl.gov
Distribution: na
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory - Berkeley, CA, USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.254.198
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4

>For a long time I thought this book was the last word on English style. 

There ain't no such animal.

>Is this book considered _that_ good by modern writers? Or, are Strunk 
>and White considered proponents of a particular style?

Both.

Having gotten in my zinger-for-the-day, let me amplify a little.  Strunk
and White (especially the latter) were indeed exponents of a particular
prose style, which is not the only valid style.  And, like all of us in
the word racket, they had their own pet peeves, their own hobbyhorses to
ride.  However, following their precepts _will_ remove the worst and most 
common faults from most people's writing.  Their message is timeless: 
Get to the point!  Use the right words and use them correctly!  Don't
make the poor reader use binoculars to see from one period to the next!

For every writer who deviates from Strunk and White's principles for
artistic reasons, there are probably a hundred who violate basic rules
of clear communication because they don't know any better.  If you are
in the former group... hey, _The Elements of Style_ was offered as a
compilation of good advice by lovers of clear, effective English; it 
was not carved in stone by Jehovah. 

Joe
"The pallid pimp of the dead-line/The enervate of the pen" --Robert Service
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: james@raveup.b24a.ingr.com (Teddie James)
Subject: Re: "Wow! You're a writer?"
Organization: Intergraph Corporation, Huntsville, AL.
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 19:02:54 GMT

In article <BsvK6y.341@unx.sas.com>, saslpo@stevens.unx.sas.com (Len Olszewski) writes:
|> 
|> On the other hand, when I tell people I'm a writer, and elaborate by 
|> explaining that I write manuals for computer software, nobody ever tells 
|> me they liked what I've written. In fact, very few people have ever read 
|> what I've written, and they still get mad at *me* for bad computer 
|> manuals that OTHER people have written. Many of them begin to berate me, 
|> though I never let that go very far before responding in my own defense.
|> 
|> Any other technical writers out there suffer through THAT scenario 
|> before?


No.  Some users and others have told me that my documentation is very
good.  Nobody has ever blamed me for someone else's poor documentation. 
My boss/editor is very good about letting me know what she likes (and
doesn't like) about my work.

When I tell others what I do, they ask me, "What's a technical writer?" 
Most people believe that the programmers write the manuals.


			        TEDDIE JAMES
			   Intergraph Corporation
			       Huntsville, AL
			        205-730-8065
			 james@raveup.b24a.ingr.com
			uunet!ingr!b24a!raveup!james
			____________________________
                         --------------------------
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: hal@HQ.Ileaf.COM (Hal Wadleigh)
Subject: Re: Publishing
Summary: rave rejections
Keywords: rejections raves
Reply-To: hal@HQ.Ileaf.COM (Hal Wadleigh)
Organization: Interleaf, Inc.
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 15:27:53 GMT
Expires: 9/17/92

The "accepted" term for the "love it but won't buy it" rejection is a
"boquet of dead roses."  Most publishers now have an absolute bar on
first novels regardless of quality.  They're making so much money on
those sleazoid books (Nancy Reagan had a THING with Frank Sinatra while
Ron met with the Cabinet!!!) that they don't want to waste ink and paper
on "literary" stuff that has a rapidly diminishing audience.

The salvation in all this is that the small "specialty" publishers are
still open to break-in writers.  Tom Clancy is the most obvious case.
Red October was initially published by the Naval Institute Press after
numerous rejections by "mainstream" publishers.  They all wanted it once
it was a "proven" market commodity.  Another, less famous, example is
Stephen Lawhead.  His fantasy novels (with religious/philosophical themes)
were published for years by Crossway (a small religious press with their
distribution mainly through religious bookstores).  Now his books are
going to the "mainstream" market through Avon.

It seems to be a possible trend: the small presses take on the new writers,
then sell off the books to a bigger publisher after establishing a "track
record" for the author.

Cheer up, and send your book to publishers who are STILL buying first novels
because they have a specific sub-market (and don't have to depend on
"blockbuster" sales to make a profit).

Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: nadeau@bnr.ca (Rheal Nadeau)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Charactor Titles
Date: 12 Aug 92 18:17:48 GMT
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa, Canada

In article <1992Aug11.183335.25640@pellns.alleg.edu> frisinv@carr100.alleg.edu (Vincent Frisina) writes:
>I don't know if this belongs here, but since it is for a story why not? 
>What are the proper addresses for:
>	1. High Priest/Priestess
>	2. Emperor/Empress
>	3. Duke, duchess, count, countess...
>	4. shogun
>	5. samurai

I won't answer this question directly (I don't know all the answers
anyway).  I do want to make a point, though.

I find that, in general, people just don't know how to look things up.
This is bad enough in the general populations, but we writers (or
would-be writers) should be more literate than that.  (The number of
times I have seen people ask questions in USENET groups that could have
been answered by looking in the dictionary, or by looking up the
relevant source of information in the phone book and calling them up.
You want to know something about Switzerland?  Well, do you have a
Swiss Embassy or Consulate in your town?)

In this case, I look at the back of my Webster's New Collegiate
Dictionary, and near the back (in A Handbook of Style), there is a
section on Forms of Address.  Amazing what you can find in a standard
dictionary - have you leafed through yours to find out all the types of
information it offers?

Beyond this, there's a world of information out there - wander over to
the nearest library or bookstore and check things out.  Doing one's
research may be a bit more work than just asking in public forums, but
it's usually worth it (I usually discover more than I was looking for,
and the extra is worth the effort).

An example:  I am planning a story which starts in the local Art
Museum, near a particular statue - a Rodin nude.  So I visited the
Museum to check out the layout; while I was there, I noticed a few
paintings nearby that will be useful in my story.  Then, in a
bookstore, I picked up a book about Rodin, checked the entry for this
statue, and learned another useful tidbit that will come in useful as a
detail in the story (the statue was controversial when it came out -
not because it was a nude, but because it was so realistic that Rodin
was accused of making a mold directly from the model, rather than
sculpting it himself).

One rule of writing, of course, is Write What You Know.  Maybe it
would be more useful to think of this as:  Know What You Write.

So in brief - look it up, folks.  Remember, getting there is half
the fun!

The Rhealist - Rheal Nadeau - nadeau@bnr.ca - Speaking only for myself
From: crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu (Lauren L. Crawford)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: writing insecurities
Date: 13 Aug 92 15:25:19 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <92225.154641U52892@uicvm.uic.edu> U52892@uicvm.uic.edu writes:

>How will I become a good writer?
>


Write.  Write.  Write.  Write some more.  Read good writing.  And then,
write again.  

-- 
Lauren Crawford  //  crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu
"Happy campers you are, happy campers you have been, and as far as I'm
concerned, happy campers you will always be."
                  --J. Danforth Quayle in American Samoa
From: mtan@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Maureen Tan)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Charactor Titles
Date: 14 Aug 92 18:02:58 GMT
Article-I.D.: maureen.mtan-140892124324
Followup-To: misc.writing
Organization: UIUC

In article <1992Aug14.150921.26090@nocusuhs.nnmc.navy.mil>,
perez@mgr.hjf.org (Charles Perez) wrote:

> As a non-catholic, I would not address the Pope as "your holiness".
> I don't think he's holy. Similarly, calling a king "your majesty"
> would imply that I was one of his subjects, which would be
> unconstitutional given my citizenship. I believe "my lord (or lady)
> <title>" is standard for foreign nobility/royalty, but I'm not sure.
> "My lord Pope" sounds acceptable from a non-catholic.

            IMHO, you've just stepped into the category of "person
unclear on the concept."
           Titles of address define what position a person occupies,
 not whether or not you personally acknowledge their authority.
 "Your majesty," acknowledges that the addressee  is, at this
moment, the king or queen of a country.  It has little to do with whether
the addressor  owes any allegiance to that country.  Similarly,
 "your holiness" is not meant to argue whether the guy is actually
 holy, it simply acknowledges that he  is the current ruler/leader
 of the Roman Catholic Church.
          Titles of address are the result of generations of
tradition, protocol, and  manners.  Also, I suspect, they kept
people from getting their heads chopped off by cranky  nobles.  If
you want to see how unbelievers and noncitizens deal with titles,
check out a book on diplomacy.  For situations when your character
finds it super-objectionable to acknowledge the position  of the
person they're addressing-- but still wants to be perceived as polite
rather than antagonistic-- try using a generic "sir" for men
 and "m'am" for women.  AVOID made-up titles.  They 
will inevitably sound kind of silly or a bit ignorant, or very rude.
      
Maureen (a.k.a. Jane)
From: doreen@cse.fau.edu (Doreen Worthy)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: looking for a book
Date: 13 Aug 92 17:28:08 GMT
Organization: Florida Atlantic University, Boca Raton, FL, USA


  There is a book at there somewhere called something like
 "Marketplace for Writers" that has the critera for publishing
  in many types of journals, etc.  Is there anyone out there that
  knows the name of this book?  If so, would you mail the information
  to me ASAP?  

  doreen@tuna.cse.fau.edu
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: ren@Turing.ORG (Karen Prestemon)
Subject: Any Screenwriters out there?
Organization: The Turing Project, Charlottesville Virginia.
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 00:14:33 GMT


I've done a bit of screenwiritng, and I'm looking for other people on
the net who do the same....  Anyone?


--Karen

Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: mtan@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Maureen Tan)
Subject: Frustration
Followup-To: misc.writing
Organization: UIUC
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 15:47:12 GMT

Yesterday dramatically illustrated why writers need
(other) steady income if they're in the habit of paying
their mortgages.

The morning mail brought a SASE.  I held the envelope
unopened, for a moment, allowing myself a moment of
anticipation.  The only SASEs  I had out were in my agent's
desk drawer.  Certainly, this envelope had to contain
good news.  My heart was in my mouth as I pulled the
contents from the envelope.

I opened it an inside found the usual bulk-printed rejection
slip from a publishing house thanking me for my query.
My heart sank.

Back in February of '91  (YES, 1991), pre-agent, I had
mailed them a query letter.  It had only taken them
a year and a half to reject me.

This made me a bit heart-sick, so I called my agent.
I didn't tell her about the rejection slip and (although
 what I *really* wanted to do was whine pathetically and ask if anyone
really loved me, I simply asked what was happening with
my book.

My agent knows how to warm the cockles of a writer's heart.
 She remembered who I was, remembered what my book was
 entitled, sounded pleased that I had called her, and(without
even being asked) gave me a much-needed two minute pep-talk.
She told me how excited she *still* was about my book and
then told me how everyone she talked to was enthusiastic
 about  my suspensful plot and its tough, screwed-up, part-time writer,
full-time undercover agent heroine.  (My heart warmed further...
she remembered my book!)

 To illustrate this enthusiastic response, my agent went on
to tell me  that an editor at  Berkeley to whom she'd sent
my ms. had called her and *raved* about how great it was.

My heart stopped.  (Okay,  it didn't actually stop.  But it
*definitely* skipped a beat.)  An actual editor at an actual publishing
had actually read my manuscript and actually liked it.  So
where was my actual contract?  Where was the actual money?

"Then she pitched it to her bosses,"  my agent continued.

I remembered all about this pitching business from reading
one of those Writers Digest Magazines on how to MAKE IT
BIG by writing novels.  Now I was really excited and there was
a song in my heart.

Then came the punch line:  "They told her, sorry, but for they're only
interested
in MALE-ORIENTED action/suspense novels for the next six months."

My heart sank.

And then my agent said (enthusiastically, of course) "But the
editor at Berkeley referred me to an editor at Soho Press..."

My heart was broken.  I didn't recognize the guy's name.
 I'd never heard of Soho Press.  And I knew that I would not be able
 to use my advance to save the old homestead.

Today, I  arrived at  work on time, was pleasant to my coworkers,
 made a point of smiling  sweetly at my boss, and will spend the
rest of the day  working industriously on a series of essays on the trends
in engineering teaching and research at the University of Illinois.

I am heartsick.

Actually, I just had this idea for a really gruesome short story...

Maureen  (a.k.a. Jane)
From: jtchew@csa3.lbl.gov (JOSEPH T CHEW)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: writing insecurities
Date: 12 Aug 92 23:49:14 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory - Berkeley, CA, USA
Reply-To: jtchew@csa3.lbl.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.254.198
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4   

>I'm a good reporter but not a good writer. My articles are often
>well-researched and substantial but structure is weak and awkward.
>How will I become a good writer?

The part you're good at is the more important part, and the less
common.  With time and practice you'll learn to put together a
decent, craftsmanlike story.  Meanwhile, take heart; there are
plenty of slick writers who don't have the mixture of inspiration
("what is news?", indeed) and doggedness that journalism requires.
You may envy their prose style, but they couldn't do your job.

Now quit worrying about it and go find out where the toxic waste
is being dumped, or who is paying off the building inspector, or one 
of those other things that are so much more important than writing.

--Joe
"Just another personal opinion from the People's Republic of Berkeley"
Newsgroups: misc.writing