From: efstse@epsilon.eecs.nwu.edu
Subject: Re: Check out this Bob. [was Re: Macedonia]
Originator: efstse@epsilon.eecs.nwu.edu
Organization: NU
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 21:05:19 GMT

In article <3812@wzv.win.tue.nl> rob@wzv.win.tue.nl (Rob J. Nauta) writes:
>efstse@epsilon.eecs.nwu.edu writes:
>
>|>Macedonia! Macedonia for the Macedonians. Greece is making a fool of
>|	    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>|>itself by fighting about the name of another country.
>
>|Aha! So there is an ethnicity called "Macedonian", right? Well, surprise,
>|surprise: WRONG. That is one of the main issues regarding the problem
>|of recognizing that republic of X-Yugoslavia. They are pushing EXTREMELY
>|hard for establishing and having by the rest of the world recognize a
>|new ethicity while they has absolutely nothing to do with Macedonia.
>|By arbitrarily and historically UNFOUNDED claims they try to convince
>|the rest of th world that their land belongs to the geographical region
>|of Macedonia (that is WRONG) and therefore they should be called
>|"Macedonians".
>
>Bullshit, the issue is politics, not ethnic issues. By trying to
>blame it on ethnic issues you are on the same low level as the rest of
>eastern europe, who have been stuck at the same level of ignorance,
>hatret etc. as Germany in 1933. As soon as the Soviets disappear, the
>concentration camps get built again. 

Thank you for the "Bullshit" jewel, my friend. Very kind of you.
So you claim you know what the real issue is and I don't. Hm, interesting!
One thing I do not understand: what do you mean "politics"? Isn't everything
politics? I believe you are confused. BTW, you are totally wrong on who is
raising ething issues. Greece has never raised any. She simply exposes
the lies of the Skopje government about the so called "Macedonian nation"
and "Macedonian minority" in Greece. As far as the comparison with
the Germany of 1933, it is pathetic. Take a shower my friend.

>I avoid political discussions with Greeks since it's hard to tell
>a Greek that Turkish people aren't that bad, when they keep saying all
>Turks want nothing but the destruction of Greece, and that all Turks
>should be killed. Especially since all greeks are brainwashed by the
>local papers and television, which they follow like blind sheep.

Since you are obviously confused on that one too, I'll just point out
that Greeks do not consider Turks as "bad", but they consider their
government and leaders too centralized, militaristic, and opportunistic.
Consider the example of Iraq. I do not think that people hate Iraquis.
However, I thing a lot of people hate Saddam Hussein. He controls them
and they can not do much about it since there is no democracy. A similar
situation exists in Turkey. They government decides: "Let's invade Cyprus".
Would any Turk say "No" independently? Look what happened in 1974.
Government decides: "Let's burn them Kurds". Have you read about it?
I strongly believe that Turks do not like this situation and are waiting the
day when there's going to be real democracy in Turkey. The Greeks wish that too.
Thus, stop speculating about how "brainwashed" Greeks are. The literacy
rate in pretty close to 100% in Greece and they can think quite straight.
However, they have suffered quite a lot from the various wars only in this
century and they are very sensitive in any hostile activities against them?
Wouldn't you? To them, the creation of "Republic of Macedonia" brings
bitter memories from the Greek Civil War (1945-1950) and the Communist
threat that was directly related with the "Macedonian" propaganda.
Bulgaria and was ready to annex Macedonia, Greece, and thus have access to the
Aegean Sea.

>Who cares about who is right ? It's another country and you have no
>right to comment on it. 

Well, you just don't get it, hm? Another country? Fine. They want recognition?
Fine. They will have it ONLY if they respect their neighbors and coexist
peacefully.

>|------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>|"This government [F.D. Roosevelt] considers any talk of a Macedonian `nation',
>|Macedonian `Fatherland' or Macedonian `national consciousness' [in Yugoslavia]
>|to be unjustified demagoguery representing no ethnic or political reality ...
>|a possible cloak for aggressive intentions against Greece".
>| 
>|            - Edward R. Stettinius, U.S. Secretary of State, December 26, 1944
>|------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>From 1944 ?? What is that supposed to mean ? That was during WW2, when
>the situation was a little different from now. 
>If you can't see that territorial claims are not real, a thing of the
>past that Greece gladly reinvents to blame on the Yugoslavians, then
>you are really a sorry fool.

Another one. Thank you my friend. You are very sweet. However, if the
above quote did not convince you that the "Macedonian" issue is all
a premeditated consiracy against Greece, well, I return the characterization
with no remorse at all.

>|of Hitler - you see: Croats are Catholics, Serbs are Orthodox, and Muslims
>|are simply fanatics). I hope you see the pattern now. The Serbs are around
>|40% of the population in Bosnia-Herzagovina and they control 80% of the wealth.
>|Therefore, they have the right to decide whether to be independent or not.
>|But No. The muslim X-Yugoslavians demand that they control over Serbian
>|land and form a new state by force. And hear this: they are calling the
>|Turks and other Muslim/Islamic countries (their "BROTHERS") to come help
>|them impose their rule over Serbian land. Now, you figure it out.
>
>Sorry, I don't share your disgust for Moslems. This is a disgusting thing
>to say, the Muslims are simply fanatics, let them have their faith. They
>are the underdog here. So what if they call Turkey their brothers ?
>Turkey will do more for them than Greece will ever do.

I do not have any disgust towards Moslems or their religion. I am referring
above to the X-Yugoslavian Moslems who have been fanatized against the Serbs.
I do not think that the Serbs have oppressed them and they could very well
have cooperated with them, considering that they are not the majority,
therefore, they cannot decide alone about the future of the B.-H. republic.
So, if they are not fanatics, then, why do they want create a Muslim-controlled
state in X-Yugoslavia by force? And have you thought about who is fanatize them
and what countries are supporting those Moslem leaders? Take a wild guess.

>Rob
>-- 
>/-----------------------------------------------\	Never		   ,==.
>| Rob J. Nauta, UNIX computer security expert.	| 	 Apologize,	  /@  |
>| rob@wzv.win.tue.nl, Phone: +31-40-837549	| 	  Never		 /_  <
>| Feel free to email me for free advice	|	   Explain.	=" `g'

Max.
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Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:8260 soc.culture.yugoslavia:8374