HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu (Lauren L. Crawford)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Britism: "taking silk"
Date: 4 Sep 92 14:01:58 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

I'm plowing through a British mystery novel right now and have gotten to
a passage that describes a character as having "taken silk" and now
operating a thriving law practice.  I assume the phrase means the
equivalent of our "passing the bar" -- true?  Where does it come
from?


-- 
Lauren Crawford  //  crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu

I believe we are on the irreversible trend toward more freedom and
democracy -- but that could change.   -- J. Danforth Quayle
From: henry@netcom.com (Henry Polard)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Another Americanism?
Keywords: for in
Date: 27 Aug 92 04:21:30 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

This may be a Beebism, but on the BBC I keep hearing sentences like:

	This is the first time this has happened for thirty years.
	                                         ^^^
where I, an American, would say:

	This is the first time this has happened in thirty years.
	                                         ^^
Is "for" here standard British English? 
What preposition would English speakers in other countries use? 
Has anyone noticed other differences in preposition usage?
-- 
 ________________________________________________________
/ Henry  || We are such stuffe as dreames are made on;   \
\ Polard || and our little life is rounded with a sleepe /
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: dian@arpeggio.gg.caltech.edu (Dian  De Sha)
Subject: Re: This usage, it makes me wince (was: Another Americanism?)
Keywords: "I should have went....."
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Distribution: all
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 21:53:10 GMT

In <1992Aug28.114714.25710@dg-rtp.dg.com> cochran@spam.rtp.dg.com (A. Jing Hippy) writes:

>In article <1992Aug26.193831.13522@Princeton.EDU>, roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:
>|> 
>|> Well, that colleague of mine who makes me wince -- HE SAYS THIS TOO!

>Totally off the subject that was being discussed, but the additional pronoun
>in the above sentence makes me wince when I sound it out.  Do the hyphens
>in it (as opposed to the comma that I put in the subject), make it an
>acceptable usage?

It isn't a problem of punctuation but of word usage.  It is redundant
and awkward to use the noun and its pronoun in the same phrase.  
I think it is this duplication that causes the wince.  Instead of:

         This usage, it makes me wince.
     and
         Well, that colleague of mine who makes me wince -- HE SAYS THIS TOO!

try:
         This usage makes me wince.
     and
         Well, that colleague of mine who makes me wince says this, too!

____
Dian
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: A Neologism
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 04:39:29 GMT

In article <1992Sep1.233118.15985@nmsu.edu> sabbott@nmsu.edu (SDA) writes:

>Literatify - to create an adjective from a literary character or
>object.

>Here are literafisms I have collected, can anyone think of others?

>pollyanna
>quixotic
>lilliputian
>pecksniffian
>panglossian
>herculean
>narcissism
>pandoras box
>hermetic
>faustian

Not that all of these are adjectives, but anyway,...

shylock.
Heepish.
jovial.
mercurial.
dionysian, apollinian/apollonian.
oedipal.
furious.
harping.
panic.
Brobdignagian.
sibylline.
musical/mosaic (from Mousa = muse)
solomonic.
orphic.  

Roger



Xref: sparky alt.usage.english:6929 sci.lang:6720
From: cochran@spam.rtp.dg.com (A. Jing Hippy)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,sci.lang
Subject: Re: Can I axe you a question?
Date: 26 Aug 92 00:19:03 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: A Suffusion of Yellow

takoosma@utkvx1.utk.edu (Toby Koosman) writes: 
| In article <1992Aug19.115423.29874@dg-rtp.dg.com>, cochran@spam.rtp.dg.com 
| (A. Jing Hippy) writes...
| >In article <18AUG199214361713@utkvx1.utk.edu>, takoosma@utkvx1.utk.edu (Toby Koosman) writes:
| >|> A lot of the features of Black English are also found in white Southern
| >|> dialects.  I haven't heard it, but my cohabitor (who has relatives there)
| >|> claims that everyone on the North Carolina Piedmont sounds black.
| > 
| >OOOooooohh!  This from someone in TENN-uh-see?  Your cohabitor needs to
| >sharpen his or her listening skills.
| 
| This from someone in North Carolina?  Perhaps you would not object to the
| statement that everyone on the Piedmont, black or white, sounds, to some
| ears, _the same_.  There are plenty of regions in the South where black and
| white dialects sound more like one another than like anything else.  Is it 
| strange to assert that black dialects owe more to the American South than
| to Africa?

Well, the fact is that I'm originally from Atlanta, Georgia, and I realize
now that I made the same sort of conclusion about your origin (actually, 
your cohabitor's; an even larger assumption) that I referenced that you 
have just made.  Apologies if Tennessee is not the place of origin.

No, I did not at all object to the idea that everyone in the North 
Carolina piedmont sounds "black".  I did not object at all, in fact.
I was merely surprised that someone from Tennessee would say something like
this.  As someone who has heard a very wide variety of "southern" accents
all of his life, I can tell the difference between north Georgia, south
Georgia/north Florida, South Carolina, Alabama, Arkansas, parts of Texas,
east Tennessee and west Tennessee.

I sort of thought that my little followup anecdote about recognizing a
South Carolinian by her accent and surprising an Oregonian who thought
that we all sounded alike would have made that clear.

I apologize if anyone inferred that I took offense.  I did not.  And
my deliberate spelling of TENN-uh-see was merely pointing out one of
those differences.  Only a native Tennesseean puts the accent on the
first syllable when they pronounce the name of the state.  It almost
sounds like an adjective form of the word "tennis" (tennissy?).  
Everyone else that I've heard puts at least some stress on the last
syllable.

+--------------------------------------------------+
|Dave Cochran, Data General Corporation, RTP, NC   |
|cochran@dg-rtp.dg.com                             |
+--------------------------------------------------+
|Any closet is a walk-in closet if you try hard    |
|enough.                                           |
+--------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: evan@hpl.hp.com (Evan Kirshenbaum)
Subject: Re: Petrified of ...
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 15:59:19 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard

In article <1992Aug26.101828.1@wombat.newcastle.edu.au> eepjm@wombat.newcastle.edu.au (Peter Moylan) writes:
>In article <1992Aug24.180405.2141@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com>, evan@hpl.hp.com (Evan Kirshenbaum) writes:
>> In article <1992Aug23.221020.1@cc.newcastle.edu.au> ccjal@cc.newcastle.edu.au (John A Lambert) writes:
>>>A Nissan commercial which has been shown recently on TV here
>>>includes the line `The opposition are petrified of Nissan' (or
>>>roughly that).
>>>
>>>Does this sound odd to ears other than mine.
>> 
>> Oh, definitely.  I would have expected "is" rather than "are". :-)
>> 
>> "Petrified" (as in "petrified with fear") is a common intensive
>> synonym for "scared" in the US.  It's roughly equivalent to
>> "terrified".
>
>But is "petrified of" a common intensive synonym for "scared of"?
>I suspect not.  "Petrified by" sounds more likely.

[How do you respond to someone who says "you don't talk that way"?]

Your suspicions notwithstanding, it is reasonably common at least in
Chicago (where I grew up) and the Bay Area (where I now reside).
"Petrified by" is also acceptable, but "petrified of" is fine and is
what I would be likely to say and am fairly certain I hear.

As I pointed out in another response, the meaning is slightly
different if you use "by" rather than "of" (although I will grant you
that for some reason "petrified by/of" sound closer in meaning than
"scared by/of").

As to how common it is, "terrified" is more common, but "petrified"
(which is a little stronger still) is definitely heard.  "Scared
shitless" is also common (in the appropriate contexts, of course).

Evan Kirshenbaum
    HP Laboratories
    3500 Deer Creek Road, Building 26U
    Palo Alto, CA  94304

    kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com
    (415)857-7572
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: misrael@csi.uottawa.ca (Mark Israel)
Subject: Re: Usage: 'goes' for 'said'
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, University of Ottawa
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 92 20:40:08 GMT

In article <17egt1INN1ht@agate.berkeley.edu>, windsor@hera.Berkeley.EDU (Katherine Windsor) writes:

> Have y'all seen the Saturn commercial, in which a nice-looking
> late-teen/early-twenties aged woman is narrating the visit she 
> and her father took to a car dealer?  In this ad, she 
> distinctly says "and he (meaning her father) goes (meaning said)..."

   Doesn't "goes" imply something slightly more than "said"?
"Said" can be used whenever you repeat someone's words.  Doesn't
"goes" imply that she's mimicking her father's tone of voice, as
well as repeating his words?

misrael@csi.uottawa.ca			Mark Israel
Sunbeams brightly play, where Fancy's fair pavilion once is pight.
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: cochran@spam.rtp.dg.com (A. Jing Hippy)
Subject: This usage, it makes me wince (was: Another Americanism?)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 92 11:47:14 GMT
Organization: A Suffusion of Yellow
Keywords: "I should have went....."

In article <1992Aug26.193831.13522@Princeton.EDU>, roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:
|> 
|> Well, that colleague of mine who makes me wince -- HE SAYS THIS TOO!

Totally off the subject that was being discussed, but the additional pronoun
in the above sentence makes me wince when I sound it out.  Do the hyphens
in it (as opposed to the comma that I put in the subject), make it an
acceptable usage?

+--------------------------------------------------+
|Dave Cochran, Data General Corporation, RTP, NC   |
|cochran@dg-rtp.dg.com                             |
+--------------------------------------------------+
|Any closet is a walk-in closet if you try hard    |
|enough.                                           |
+--------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: dian@arpeggio.gg.caltech.edu (Dian  De Sha)
Subject: Re: What does this mean?
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Distribution: all
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 23:17:33 GMT

In <1992Aug20.135224.6800@gov.on.ca> diamong@gov.on.ca (Gerald Diamond) writes:

>I saw an ad in the subway (Toronto) yesterday that said

>"All flavours not available in all provinces"
>in reference to a certain line of coolers  (i.e. fruit, alcohol, and
>water mixtures)

>I assume the company meant 

>"Some flavours may not be be available in certain provinces"

>but I think it might be interpreted as 

>"No flavours available anywhere!"
>Am I way off on this?


Enough to make you trip on reading, right?

Rather than a problem with a double negative, this is instead an instance 
of a misplaced negative: "Not all flavours are available in every province"

____
Dian
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: sds@henry.ece.cmu.edu (Sherwood Daniel Silliman)
Subject: Re: Beech vs. Beach
Organization: Electrical and Computer Engineering, Carnegie Mellon
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 16:10:57 GMT

In article <24076@oasys.dt.navy.mil> huangj@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Juliet Huang) writes:
>Hi,
>
>I'm not sure if this has been brought up before but...
>
>I have a fairly recent box of Honey Nut Cheerios that offers a free
>Beech ball.  That's Beech with two "e"'s.  On the box, though, they
>show the sand and surf, which I've always thought was BEACH.
>Are they using a definition of beech that I don't know, is it an
>error, or am I mistaken??
>
>Julie

There's a little cartoon character on the Honey Nut Cheerios
commercial called "the Honey Nut Bee."  Now, this character,
being a bee, is qualified to talk about things made with honey,
however little real honey there may be in the cereal.

Now, the Beech ball is just this little guy's BEEch ball.

Sorry you asked?



-- 
Sherwood D. Silliman         "When I give food to the poor, they call me a
                              saint.  When I ask why the poor have no food,
                              they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara
From: arm@bnr.co.uk (Alec McKenzie)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Another Americanism?
Date: 26 Aug 92 12:04:25 GMT
Reply-To: arm@bnr.co.uk (Alec McKenzie)
Organization: BNR Europe Limited, London Road, Harlow, Essex, GB


Teacher: If I were to say "I have went", that would be wrong, wouldn't it?

Pupil:   Yes, miss.

Teacher: Why would it be wrong?

Pupil:   Because you ain't went yet, miss.


 
+-----------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
|   Alec McKenzie - arm@bnr.co.uk   |   BNR Europe Limited, London Road,  |
|       Phone +44 279 402159        |   Harlow, Essex, England CM17 9NA   |
+-----------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
From: cms@dragon.com (Spawn of a Jewish Carpenter (Cindy Smith))
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re:  Hross
Date: 27 Aug 92 04:26:37 GMT
Organization: Computer Projects Unlimited


 Speaking of metathesis....

 "Horse" originally comes from "hross," whence, I suspect, "Hoss" 
Cartwright got his name.  The writers/developers of Bonanza must have 
had a sense of humor.

Cindy Smith
cms@dragon.com
From: "raun kupiec" <raun.kupiec@channel1.com>
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: coke brings back anc
Date: 3 Sep 92 02:05:53 EST
Reply-To: "raun kupiec" <raun.kupiec@channel1.com>
Distribution: alt
Organization: Channel 1 Communications

> In article <86205@netnews.upenn.edu> crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu (Lauren L.
>    Crawford) writes:
> Anybody seen any awful menu translations?  ...

> In article <86205@unixhub.SLAC.Stanford.EDU> esr@unixhub.SLAC.Stanford.EDU
>    (Edwin S. Russell) writes:

> Someone posted this list about a year ago:

> "Roast beef with au jus sauce"
> "Today's soup du jour"
> "Enchilada with Salsa sauce"
> "Potatoes au gratin with cheese"

A similar effect is "the La Brea Tar Pits" (the the Tar Tar Pits)

 -- SPEED 1.20 [NR]: Applause - n. The echo of a platitude. (Ambrose Bierce)
--
Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA
From: gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Gabe M Wiener)
Subject: Re: Another Americanism?
Keywords: "I should have went....."
Reply-To: gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Gabe M Wiener)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 23:53:46 GMT

In article <1992Aug25.215417.7272@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> you write:
>
>       Has anyone noticed the common(in the U.S., that is) use of
>the incorrect tense when saying, for example:
>       "I should have went to the store..."
>instead of what should be:
>       "I should have gone to the store..."?

The only person from whom I have ever heard this construction was a
portuguese woman who was still struggling with the language, and she
learned the correct constructon fairly quickly.  If this is an
Americanism, it's news to this American.


--
Gabe Wiener - Columbia Univ.     "This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings 
gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu       to be seriously considered as a means of 
N2GPZ in ham radio circles        communication. The device is inherently of
72355,1226 on CI$                 no value to us." -Western Union memo, 1877
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english,dc.dining
From: david@tvc15.dco.dec.com (David Lucas, Sales Support)
Subject: Re: Menu Manglish Mania
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 14:49:48 GMT

In article <92243.234841HERSCH@auvm.american.edu> <HERSCH@auvm.american.edu> writes:
.
.
.
>The restaurant is called Blue Diamond, a Chinese place at 18th and T Streets
>Northwest, Washington, DC, which is near where I live. Before going any
>further, I want to point out that they have pretty good food, very prompt
>home delivery, and prices that are probably a little higher than other
>comparable restaurants, but still not far out of line. I encourage anyone
>in the neighborhood to give them a try.
>

for what it's worth, the blue diamond has been listed more times than i
care to remember as being closed by the board of health.  (the list 
appears every sunday in the washington post.)  

i was a 'mr. eggroll' fan, myself.  but they've recently mutated into a
roasted-chicken place, and so i'm without a chinese-food source.

any other suggestions in the mt. pleasant/adams-morgan area?
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: dian@arpeggio.gg.caltech.edu (Dian  De Sha)
Subject: Re: Another Americanism?
Keywords: for in
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Distribution: all
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 23:59:51 GMT

In <1992Aug27.175200.23040@Princeton.EDU> roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:

>
>  Also the nightmare 
>one [alphabet], with things like P as in pheasant.  Anyone have these on line?)


Please!  If it exists, I would love to see it; if not, I'd love to start one.
Let's see:

P as in Pneumonia
P as in Ptomaine
P as in Phone
K as in Knife
G as in Gnu
H as in Honesty 
M as in Mnemonic
O as in 'Possum
X as in Xylophone
C as in Czar
C as in cuckoo }these are a bit dubious, since C does not have its own
C as in cereal }sound but is either "S" or "K" unless paired with H to be "CH"

...
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Can I axe you a question?
From: preece@urbana.mcd.mot.com (Scott E. Preece)
Date: 25 Aug 92 14:48:53 GMT
 U> <pjh.714401779@nessi><1992Aug21.163634.11026@Princeton.EDU>
Organization: Motorola MCG, Urbana Design Center

In article <1992Aug21.163634.11026@Princeton.EDU> roger@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:

| (And I'm *still* waiting for a cogent explanation of the utility of the
| "less/fewer" distinction...)
|
| That's *utility*. I know what the distinction is supposed to be (and in
| actual practice isn't always); I want to know what good it is.  We don't
| have a distinction between the comparatives of "much" and "many," and
| manage just fine.  Why enforce a distinction here that's at variance
| with actual usage, and always has been?
---
What has need or utility got to do with it?  The language has never been
constrained by utility or minimalism.  Sometimes unnecessary
distinctions evolve away over time and sometimes new ones are created
for no particular reason.  People who care about language tend to
husband endangered usage and tend also to embrace new forms, where those
new forms don't conflict with established ones, just because they have
the turn of mind that enjoys using words in exactly the way they mean.

If you choose to ignore the "less" v. "fewer" distinction, the great
majority of people won't even notice.  If the people who *do* notice are
the people whose approval matters to you, then you have made a poor
choice.
--
scott preece
motorola/mcg urbana design center	1101 e. university, urbana, il   61801
uucp:	uunet!uiucuxc!udc!preece,	 arpa:	preece@urbana.mcd.mot.com
phone:	217-384-8589			  fax:	217-384-8550
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: prener@watson.ibm.com (Dan Prener)
Subject: Re: Beech vs. Beach
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 06:48:15 GMT
Distribution: usa
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center, Hawthorne, New York

In article <BtpCJs.LGu@wpi.WPI.EDU> padutton@fledgling.WPI.EDU (Peter Alan Dutton) writes:

[ . . . ]

>I don't know - last I heard, wood floated...

Some types of wood are sufficiently dense that they don't float.
--
                                   Dan Prener (prener@watson.ibm.com)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: dian@arpeggio.gg.caltech.edu (Dian  De Sha)
Subject: Re: P as in Phonetic (was Another Americanism?)
Keywords: for in
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Distribution: all
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 22:11:47 GMT

In <s!gnwsj.henry@netcom.com> henry@netcom.com (Henry Polard) writes:

>In article <dian.714959991@egg.gg.caltech.edu> dian@arpeggio.gg.caltech.edu (Dian  De Sha) writes:
>>In <1992Aug27.175200.23040@Princeton.EDU> roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:
>>
>>>
>>>  Also the nightmare 
>>>one [alphabet], with things like P as in pheasant.  Anyone have these on line?)
>>
>>
>>Please!  If it exists, I would love to see it; if not, I'd love to start one.
>>Let's see:
>>
>>P as in Pneumonia
>>P as in Ptomaine
>>P as in Phone
>>K as in Knife
>>G as in Gnu
>>H as in Honesty 
>>M as in Mnemonic
>>O as in 'Possum
>>X as in Xylophone
>>C as in Czar
>>C as in cuckoo }these are a bit dubious, since C does not have its own
>>C as in cereal }sound but is either "S" or "K" unless paired with H to be "CH"
>There are bunch of examples in the book "Science Made Supid." Here are some
>oldies:
>A as in aye
>B as in bdellium
>C as in cthonian
>O as in oedipal
>W as in write

>Are we going to go for a net.Canonical_List?
>-- 

Oh, let's!  Any other contributions?

____
Dian
Organization: University of Maine System
Date: Wednesday, 2 Sep 1992 15:55:42 EDT
From: <IO11412@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Improper spelling

Why do so many people (especially native speakers of English) spell
incorrectly the following forms:
your     for      you're
your's   for      yours
he's     for      his
it's     for      its
its      for      it's
tonite   for      tonight
wierd    for      weird
acheive  for      achieve
recieve  for      receive
our's    for      ours
their's  for      theirs

I don't mean the situations where someone uses an incorrect form when they
know the correct spelling (e.g. thanx for thanks).
Please don't answer with "linguistics should be descriptive, not prescrip-
tive" or "language changes, so spelling does too".
What I'm trying to focus on is the same problem that makes Dan Quayle spell
"potatoe", and half of the high-school seniors in the state of X who don't
know where Europe is on the map.
What is the connection between these errors and the fact that people don't
read books nowadays (almost) and that the overall cultural level tends if
not to decrease, then at least to shift to a non-praiseworthy state.
Let the flame war start!
Dragomir (non-native speaker).
From: cthorne@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Charles E Thorne)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Less vs Fewer
Date: 4 Sep 92 16:19:26 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University

In article <1684E9811.M10615@mwvm.mitre.org> M10615@mwvm.mitre.org writes:
>I have been following this thread with great interest.  I wasn't going
>to say anything myself, but the comment about "mathojargon" or something
>a few days ago got to me.  So I think it's time to put in my 2 cents
>(more or fewer).  It will either shed some light, generate some more
>heat, or at the very least, provide another target for other posters.

>The mathematical symbol  "<"  is called a "less-than" sign, never
>(talk about unsupported generalizations!) a "fewer-than" sign.
>The mathematical expression (sentence)  "5<8"  is pronounced
>"five is less than eight."  Nobody even THINKS of saying "fewer";
>not only that, nobody even thinks of saying "are."  The reason,
>IMHO, is that 5 and 8 are acting as quantities, not countables,
>and that people (at least mathematicians) are being influenced by
>this and are reading the expression as if it were a short form of
>"the quantity five is less than the quantity eight."  I believe
>this is true even for those of us who make a less/fewer distinction.

Even though you may use the same English (less rather than fewer) there
is a distinction in mathematics, depending on whether the numbers are
integers or whether they're real numbers.  Integers would be fewer
but real numbers would be "less".