From: nobby@hardy.u.washington.edu (Vitaly Shmatikov)
Subject: Re: Conversion Question
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 20:10:26 GMT

In article <1992Nov22.191856.6211@cis.ohio-state.edu> khaikin@boa.cis.ohio-state.edu (dmitry khaikin) writes:
>In article <1992Nov22.093616.18914@u.washington.edu> nobby@hardy.u.washington.edu (Vitaly Shmatikov) writes:

[... deletions ...]

>>I believe in intellectual honesty. Either I put up with the notion that, say,
>>evolution is a hoax and the word of RAMBAM is worth more than a bunch of
>>Nobel laureats with their microscopes and accelerators, or I put Talmud
>>away and return to my textbooks. Don't pick on evolution, I have dozens
>>of other examples in stock. Your choice is valid but so is mine.
>
>Your choice is yours. That I will agree on, but valid? No, it is not.
>The fact that you could not get yourself to accept something does not
>make it valid at all.
>

Yes, it *is* valid. Perhaps my main conflict with Judaism in its Orthodox
interpretation has to do with the concept of free will. I deeply believe 
that if I make some intellectual choice it is valid by default as far as it
doesn't impinge on others' rights. For me compliance with this or that
mandated system of beliefs cannot serve as a criterium for validity.

>>I cannot come from synagogue to my cognitive science class and believe
>>simultaneously that a). whatever I think and cognate is inspired by some
>>supreme being, and b). it's a peculiar pattern of activation in the neural
>>network cells that underlies all my feelings and perceptions. Maybe a bad 
>>example though.  It's too late and I can't find Feynman's book where he 
>>describes his visit to some L.A. yeshiva. Wording is mine: "while the world is
>>so infinitely complex and contains so many mysteries that are only
>>starting to unveil these guys waste their time delving into millenium-old
>>books and lock their horns over the cryptic meaning of some aramaic symbol
>>which gives them no knowledge whatsoever about the universe in all its
>>unimaginable sophistication." I simply do not believe in the power of
>>Talmud or even Torah for that matter. But I do believe in the power of
>>scientific approach to things which, alas, doesn't get along with the
>>religious one.
>
>Now, this is not even Judaism. This is atheism. Even Reform people
>believe in the pwer of Torah. That what our religion is based on. How
>can you judge or argue somebody who is religious and then say that yo
>don't believe in the power of Torah. There is no argument then. You have
>different base believes, which I think is a brainwashing, but by Soviet
>way of life, not by Orthodox. People don't waste their time studing
>Torah and they do find out alot that you can't find out in a scientific
>book. The myth that religion is agaist science is a myth and was
>brainwashed into Soviet people. So, they don't waste their time studing
>Torah, you should try it sometime too. Not for one week though, longer.
>Then you can at least get some idea what Torah really gives you. I feel
>sorry for you since you had not had the opportunity to learn the things
>I did. You should not stop and give up on the religion though. I am in
>Computer Science by the way and that does not contradict anything in
>Judaism. 

No, Dima, this is not brainwashing. In fact I abandoned religion as such 
only after I moved to the U.S. You gotta be honest with yourself. When I
come to an Orthodox shul in Brooklyn and hear that G-d created world in
6 days 5-something thousand years ago, that's fine. When I come to the
neurophysiology lab here at the University of Washington where they do
research on prefrontal cortex in monkeys I see striking similarities with
human brain that cannot be reasonably explained without the notion of
evolution. Both approaches are valid but you cannot have them together.

I urge you to notice a worrisome thing. I do respect your beliefs, but you
don't respect mine. This is one thing in Orthodoxy that scares crap out
of me. I simply cannot put up with the religion that denies other people
right to think if their beliefs happen to deviate from some arbitrarily
picked authority.

>
>>
>>I expect a reasoned argument. And please stick to the facts and think twice
>>before you post next time that churches give 2 points to everybody who
>>converts a Jew while regular prozelytes are worth only 1. 
>>
>
>I don't really care if you believe that story or not, but it is a fact
>and did not lie about anything. It happenned, you don't believe it? So, be
>it. I have harder time reading that you don;t believe in the power of
>Torah and Hashem! And I do think more then two times before I write
>something into this newsgroup. 
>

No, I didn't say that I don't believe it. Know what, swap Jews and Christians 
in this story and replace church guy with Jonathan Pollard. Do you feel 
offended? I do because the stories like this always have hidden implications. 
Both cases are extremely untypical and it's unfair to invoke them in the 
context where they can entail sweeping generalizations.

>Thanks,
>Dima
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  "A word is worth one coin; silence is worth two."_____ The Talmud.
>  "Silence is good everywhere, except in connection with Torah."____ The Zohar.
>   khaikin@cis.ohio-state.edu (Dmitry Khaikin, Columbus Ohio, USA)

nobby@u.washington.edu