HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kevin@rotag.mi.org (Kevin Darcy)
Subject: Re: What's really behind this "men's choice" thing?
Organization: Who, me???
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 02:11:36 GMT

In article <1h0h9fINN2i6@gap.caltech.edu> peri@cco.caltech.edu (Michal Leah Peri) writes:
>kevin@rotag.mi.org (Kevin Darcy) writes:
>
>>In article <1gdcpaINNhbc@gap.caltech.edu> peri@cco.caltech.edu (Michal Leah Peri) writes:
>>>gordons@coopsol.com (Gordon Storga) writes:
>>>
>>>>If a man has made it clear to his 'mate' that he doesn't want 
>>>>children, and uses appropriate contraception, then why should he be
>>>>responsible for any resulting children?
>>>
>>>Because they are still *his* children.
>
>>Only in terms of genetic similarity.
>
>Nope.  Because of his participation in the conception.

How is that not a direct contradiction of the following?

"I don't argue that he has to pay for a child just because he had sex."
					12 Dec 92 03:34:32 GMT
					<1gbmk8INN74p@gap.caltech.edu>

Is there some subtle distinction I'm missing here between "sex" and 
"participation in conception"? If so, please enlighten me.

>>>And because children have a right to be supported by both parents.
>
>>Where is this right written in the federal Constitution (i.e. the same level 
>>of jurisdiction where the man's property rights are given protection)?
>
>The constitution specifically states that rights are *not* limited to 
>those specifically listed therein.

But a non-enumerated right is NOT recognized, generally speaking, if it comes 
at the direct expense of another individual's enumerated right. Why do you 
think the man's constitutional right to not have his property deprived without 
due process of law should have any LESS weight than this alleged, non-
enumerated "right" of a child to be supported by both of its natural parents?

							- Kevin
Newsgroups: alt.abortion.inequity,talk.abortion,soc.women
From: Will Steeves <goid@zooid.guild.org>
Subject: Re: Fetal Protectionism
X-To: ROCKER
Organization: The Zoo of Ids
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 04:06:00 GMT

cookc@aix.rpi.edu (rocker) writes...
RO> dsholtsi@csl36h.csl.ncsu.edu (Doug Holtsinger) writes:

RO> >I have to wonder why this one situation justifies the
RO> >annual killing of 1.5 million innocent human beings.

RO> I have to wonder why you pulled this one out of thin air.


In Doug's defense, I would add that this was *hardly* pulled "out of thin
air".  This is a very *old*, and very valid objection to abortion, (although
I dispite the wording - I'd have said "potential human beings"), even though
I do not myself consider it compelling enough to force women to remain
pregnant.

I *do* consider it compelling enough, however, to advocate serious research
into a *safe* (for the woman as well as the "foetus") way of allowing women
to choose not to stay pregnant, while at the same time allowing the "foetus"
to be safely transferred into another womb or into an artificial womb.

---
Will Steeves, goid@zooid.guild.org                      "Neil Hull is GOiD"
ZOOiD BBS, Toronto, Ontario - The Zoo Of Ids            "GOiDS Rule"
(416) 322-7876

"Cthulhu for President in '92 - Why vote for the _lesser_ of two evils?"
                                                          - Bronis Vidugiris
---
 * SLMR 2.1a * ...And the only thing the Borg left was this MacIntosh.
Newsgroups: alt.abortion.inequity,alt.dads-rights,alt.feminism,alt.missing-kids,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.politics.sex,soc.women,soc.men,talk.abortion,talk.rape
From: forb0004@student.tc.umn.edu (Eric Forbis )
Subject: Re: Proposal for reorganization of gender-issue groups
Organization: University of Minnesota
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 04:06:32 GMT

In article <1992Dec11.201041.608057@zeus.calpoly.edu> dgross@zeus.calpoly.edu (Dave Gross) writes:

>	soc.manumission (moderated)
>
>	Analogous to soc.feminism, this would be a moderated group for
>posting news and thoughtful analysis of men's issues.  Followups
>regularly set to soc.men, alt.dads-rights or soc.feminism.d.  I forsee this
>group as one of fairly low traffic.

Your proposed changes were all well- considered and needed, but I place this 
group at the top of the list. We _desperately_ need a moderated space where 
men's issues can be discussed sanely.


>
>	soc.men
>
>	Posters would encourage a man-friendly atmosphere and refer
>debates and flames and acrimonious discussion of feminism to
>soc.feminism.d or alt.flame.

And this is the only change I disagree with. Feminism directly impacts men 
today, and usually in a negative manner. Criticizing feminism (radical, 
academic, whatever) is thus an integral function of the men's movement,  
and telling men to take their criticisms of an ideology that vilifies them 
to that enemy's camp.... ugh, simply unconscionable. 


---------

Eric Forbis      forb0004@student.tc.umn.edu
Newsgroups: alt.abortion.inequity,soc.men,soc.women,talk.abortion,alt.feminism
From: Will Steeves <goid@zooid.guild.org>
Subject: Re: Reproductive freedom
X-To: MICHAL LEAH PERI
Organization: The Zoo of Ids
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 00:54:00 GMT

peri@cco.caltech.edu (Michal Leah Peri) writes...
MLP> hrubin@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes:

MLP> >In article <1992Nov28.174310.25092@adobe.com> kendall@adobe.com (Janice Ke
MLP> ) writes:
MLP> >>In article <ByDMLx.FvK@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (
MLP> n Rubin) writes:
MLP> >>>>>>[long proposal and comments deleted]

MLP> >                       ................................

MLP> >If you read what I wrote without prejudice, he is required to compensate h
MLP> [for carrying the foetus]
MLP> >if she is unwilling.

MLP> In what manner shall the father compensate for the disfigurement of my
MLP> body?  In what way shall he compensate me for the risks to my health
MLP> (and possibly my life)?  For the risk of losing my job?  For the censure
MLP> of my peers and my church?

MLP> In what way shall he compensate me for the pain of labour?  How much
MLP> is a C-section or an episiotomy worth?

MLP> In what way shall he compensate me for the anguish of having
MLP> to endure for 9 months a pregnancy that I do not want?

In what way should a man who is unwilling to be a parent, be compensated?


MLP> What compensation do you stipulate for a woman's enslavement?

What compensation do you stipulate for a man's enslavement?  Refund his child
support after the child grows up??  Right....

---
Will Steeves, goid@zooid.guild.org                      "Neil Hull is GOiD"
ZOOiD BBS, Toronto, Ontario - The Zoo Of Ids            "GOiDS Rule"
(416) 322-7876

"Cthulhu for President in '92 - Why vote for the _lesser_ of two evils?"
                                                          - Bronis Vidugiris
---
 * SLMR 2.1a * He's dead, Jim.  Kick him if you don't believe me.
Newsgroups: alt.abortion.inequity,talk.abortion,soc.men
From: Will Steeves <goid@zooid.guild.org>
Subject: Here we go again! (l (1)
X-To: MICHAL LEAH PERI
Organization: The Zoo of Ids
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 23:03:00 GMT

peri@cco.caltech.edu (Michal Leah Peri) writes...
MLP> karl@ddsw1.mcs.com (Karl Denninger) writes:

MLP> >In article <1fof0iINN3fp@gap.caltech.edu> peri@cco.caltech.edu (Michal Lea
MLP> i) writes:
MLP> >>References: <1f4hlnINN2fr@gap.caltech.edu> <ByICH5.K2w@ddsw1.mcs.com> <1f
MLP> NN9q6@gap.caltech.edu> <ByM4HL.416@ddsw1.mcs.com>
MLP> >>
MLP> >>karl@ddsw1.mcs.com (Karl Denninger) writes:
MLP> >>
MLP> >>>In article <1fdrtaINN9q6@gap.caltech.edu> peri@cco.caltech.edu (Michal L
MLP> eri) writes:

MLP> >Let's be honest here Michel.  Are you interested in equal rights for the
MLP> >sexes as well as giving children a good home, or are you interested in
MLP> >preserving to the best extent possible the current superiority that women
MLP> >enjoy in the reproductive arena?

MLP> My priorities are as follows:
MLP> (1) to ensure that all born children are adequately provided
MLP> (2) to ensure that women maintain the right to abort
MLP> (3) to obtain equality for the sexes (note: I believe the right to
         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
MLP> abortion is crucial to achieve equality)

I'd like to ask you what you consider "equality for the sexes" to mean,
in the context of Male Choice, ie., other than giving only women the right
to abdicate parenthood, and making a legal presumption of joint custody.

From what I can guess, it seems as though you *only* care about women's
rights.


MLP> >Ah, but if I wear a condom during sex I think I am declaring quite loudly
MLP> >and obviously that I have no intention of conceiving >anything<!

MLP> But that does not relieve you of responsibility if an accidential
MLP> conception should occur.

It certainly relieves *her*, should she *choose* to take relief, as many have
pointed out, again, and again, and again...


MLP> >the woman involved knows full well that there is no conception intended,
MLP> >and therefore asking for child support post-sexual activity could be proof
MLP> >of obtaining sexual favors under fraudulent intent?

MLP> It is not the *woman* who asks child support.  It is the child.
                                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This is a clever diversion.  In fact, this is like arguing against abortion,
and arguing that it is a case of "men controlling women," because "it is not
the man who wants the child to live.  It is the child who deserves to live".

At any rate, the fact remains - it is a transfer from the man to the *woman*,
*not* the child.

---
Will Steeves, goid@zooid.guild.org                      "Neil Hull is GOiD"
ZOOiD BBS, Toronto, Ontario - The Zoo Of Ids            "GOiDS Rule"
(416) 322-7876

"Cthulhu for President in '92 - Why vote for the _lesser_ of two evils?"
                                                          - Bronis Vidugiris
---
 * SLMR 2.1a * aibohphobia, n. The fear of palindromes.
Newsgroups: alt.abortion.inequity,talk.abortion,soc.women
From: Will Steeves <goid@zooid.guild.org>
Subject: Re: Fetal Protectionism
X-To: STEVE NOVAK
Organization: The Zoo of Ids
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 04:41:00 GMT

steven@advtech.uswest.com ( Steve Novak) writes...
SN> > = (Don Beaver) writes:
SN> >> = Steve Novak writes:
SN> >>> = (Don Beaver) writes:

SN> [Don says sarcastically...]
SN> >>>Why stop there?  Why not jail parents for smoking in the presence
SN> >>>of their children?

SN> >>Indeed, why not?  Parents know today that second-hand cigarrette smoke
SN> >>kills.  That's at least assault everytime they light up around a
SN> >>non-smoker, kids or not.
SN> >>
SN> >>This is *another* example of a Fetus Worshipper like Don that doesn't
SN> >>even see the irony in his own "sarcasm".  By golly, force women to give
                                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
SN> >>birth, but let 'em suck fucking Camels all day while nursing the kid.
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

SN> >Mr. "Wacker the K," I can't even see any irony in your
SN> >writing style or your disregard for the truth.

SN> Don't be *afraid*, Beave; point out exactly where my alleged lie is in
SN> this posting.


I'd guess that it had to do with the fact that you accused him of wanting
to force women to give birth (ie., "By golly...") even though you have seen
him say MANY times that he is *not* "pro force".

While I grant that you may not have seen it, he has said it quite a few times,
and thus it is fairly unlikely for you to have missed it, Steve.

---
Will Steeves, goid@zooid.guild.org                      "Neil Hull is GOiD"
ZOOiD BBS, Toronto, Ontario - The Zoo Of Ids            "GOiDS Rule"
(416) 322-7876

"Cthulhu for President in '92 - Why vote for the _lesser_ of two evils?"
                                                          - Bronis Vidugiris
---
 * SLMR 2.1a * Sally stole seven sysops' signatures!
Newsgroups: alt.abortion.inequity,talk.abortion,misc.legal
From: beckley@qualcom.qualcomm.com (Jeff Beckley)
Subject: Re: Quoting Someone Else's Private e-mail (was: abortion)
Organization: Qualcomm, Inc., San Diego, CA
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 22:48:03 GMT

margoli@watson.ibm.com (Larry Margolis) writes:

>If I tell you that if you send me something, I'm going to post it, and you send
>me something, then you *have* given me permission to post it.  Plain and simple.

Now I'm sure there are lawyer-types out there who can refute the (lawful)
validity of this statement better than I can, but this seems a bit extreme.

So, Larry, if you respond to this post, then I am going to steal all your
money from you.  If you respond, then you have given me permission to
separate you from your wallet.


P.S. When you respond, it would make things easier for me if you would include
the numbers of you bank accounts.   ;^>

-- 
beckley@qualcomm.com         "A witty saying proves nothing." -- Voltaire
Xref: sparky alt.abortion.inequity:5867 talk.abortion:51828 alt.feminism:5959 soc.men:21099 misc.legal:21297
From: peri@cco.caltech.edu (Michal Leah Peri)
Newsgroups: alt.abortion.inequity,talk.abortion,alt.feminism,soc.men,misc.legal
Subject: Re: Back Again To (Un)Father
Date: 13 Dec 1992 01:07:25 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu
Keywords: Two Legs Good, Three Legs Bad...

gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch) writes:
 
>At 53, I can
>count on some of you to keep the economy going so I
>can get my social security and dividend checks as I
>hobble around twenty or thirty years hence; but for
>_you_, there will evidently be no next generation.
>Good luck!)

It's not a dearth of procreation that's bugging this
group.  It's a reluctance to pay for their progeny.

-- 

                                                --  Michal
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course there's no reason!  
Newsgroups: alt.abortion.inequity,alt.dads-rights,alt.feminism,alt.missing-kids,alt.politics.homosexuality,soc.women,soc.men,talk.abortion,talk.rape
From: twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: Proposal for reorganization of gender-issue groups
Followup-To: alt.abortion.inequity,alt.dads-rights,alt.feminism,soc.men
Organization: Elitist Usenet Administrators, Turkey Division
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 05:46:02 GMT

In article <forb0004.143.724305992@student.tc.umn.edu> forb0004@student.tc.umn.edu (Eric Forbis ) writes:

>In article <1992Dec11.201041.608057@zeus.calpoly.edu> dgross@zeus.calpoly.edu (Dave Gross) writes:
>
>>	soc.manumission (moderated)
>
>Your proposed changes were all well- considered and needed, but I place this 
>group at the top of the list. We _desperately_ need a moderated space where 
>men's issues can be discussed sanely.

I understand that the traffic on the mail-men list is pretty
reasonable ... oh! but I forgot that you oppose mailing lists.  You
*neeeeeed* a newsgroup, yesterday if not sooner.

>Feminism directly impacts men 
>today, and usually in a negative manner. Criticizing feminism (radical, 
>academic, whatever) is thus an integral function of the men's movement,  
>and telling men to take their criticisms of an ideology that vilifies them 
>to that enemy's camp.... ugh, simply unconscionable.

I knew there was a reason I couldn't bring myself to be a part of what
passes for a men's "movement."

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / 
\  / twpierce@unix.amherst.edu /               Rocks say goodbye.
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) / 
Newsgroups: alt.abortion.inequity,talk.abortion,misc.legal
From: bhayden@teal.csn.org (Bruce Hayden)
Subject: Re: Quoting Someone Else's Private e-mail (was: abortion)
Organization: Colorado SuperNet, Inc.
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 15:43:30 GMT

>margoli@watson.ibm.com (Larry Margolis) writes:

>>If I tell you that if you send me something, I'm going to post it, and you send
>>me something, then you *have* given me permission to post it.  Plain and simple.

>Now I'm sure there are lawyer-types out there who can refute the (lawful)
>validity of this statement better than I can, but this seems a bit extreme.

Without looking this up, I seem to remember that letters (mail)
is somewhat different that other works under copyright law.
I think there are similar cases out there that concern publication
of private letters..

However, the person who creates the message owns the copyright to
the message. He need do no more (anymore - since the US joined Berne).
He may give the recipient a limited license to the work. The usual
question is the reasonable expectations of the sender. Did he expect
the message to be posted it, or just to read it. This probably depends
on normal Net protocol - If (as appears to be the case) normal protocol
is that sending mail does not normally result in publication w/o futher
permission, then the sender can make a strong case that that was his
reasonable expectation when he sent the message. The result - no right
to post (or publish) the letter. 

The reasonable expectations of both parties determine the probable
terms of any license agreement between them. In particular, the
law is not going to impose license terms on the sender that are
significantly broader than those he reasonably expected.

Bruce E. Hayden
(303) 758-8400
bhayden@csn.org
Newsgroups: alt.abortion.inequity,soc.men,soc.women,talk.abortion,alt.feminism,m
From: Will Steeves <goid@zooid.guild.org>
Subject: Re: Reproductive freedom
X-To: JANICE KENDALL
Organization: The Zoo of Ids
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 03:25:00 GMT

kendall@adobe.com (Janice Kendall) writes...  (speaking to Herman Rubin)
JK>         I am NOT anyone's PROPERTY.  A fetus is NOT a piece of PROPERTY.
                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

It *is*, to the people who want to "dispose" of "it" because "it" is a mere
"inconvenience".


JK>         If a man wants to procreate, he should find a willing woman.  Tell
JK>         you what, if the woman wants to abort and the man doesn't, why
JK>         doesn't she just *compensate* him.  (sarcasm intended)

Some sarcasm, Janice.  If the woman *doesn't* want to abort, and the man
*does*, *HE COMPENSATES HER* for 18-24 YEARS, whether he wants to or not!

While you speak of how you should be compensated *IF* you were to be forced
to remain pregnant and *IF* you were to develop some chronic health problem
afterwards (not *too* likely, I would venture, though I would not mind
seeing some statistics), the fact is that you are NOT forced to remain
pregnant.

Perhaps we should START talking about how a MAN should be compensated, if
while being FORCED to raise a child he does not want, he becomes unable to pay
his rent or even feed himself!

So indeed:

            Tell you what, if the woman doesn't want to abort and the woman
            doesn't, why doesn't he just *compensate* her?  (sarcasm intended)

HE DOES!  And by choice or otherwise!

---
Will Steeves, goid@zooid.guild.org                      "Neil Hull is GOiD"
ZOOiD BBS, Toronto, Ontario - The Zoo Of Ids            "GOiDS Rule"
(416) 322-7876

"Cthulhu for President in '92 - Why vote for the _lesser_ of two evils?"
                                                          - Bronis Vidugiris
---
 * SLMR 2.1a * A nod is as good as a wink to a blind bat.
Newsgroups: alt.abortion.inequity,talk.abortion
From: keegan@acm.rpi.edu (James G. Keegan Jr.)
Subject: Re: abortion
Organization: T.S.A.K.C.
Distribution:  world
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 04:08:48 GMT

now that you're back posting after your several-week's
absence, will you be posting your apology for lying
about adrienne having forged quotes?

Newsgroups: alt.abortion.inequity
From: txdv1@isuvax.iastate.edu (Angela KAY Rolling)
Subject: RE:male chouce
Reply-To: txdv1@isuvax.iastate.edu
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 22:30:34 GMT

Problems with using dictionarys to look up words are 1:you have to know it
is wroung and 2: in order to get any were with it you should have at lest the
first three letters right. A dictionary does little good if you dont know
about the scilent p in pneumonia and think its spelled nomonia or newmonia
Disgrafia is a learning disability that efects a persons ability to master
the mecanics behind the wrighten language (cant spell in any language).
It is like dislexia in that it is an LD that deals with language but were
dislexia is were things get turned around (be carefull you can catch your
self) disgrafia deals woth the mecanics (is that spelled ..tion or sion-
is it 's or s'-do I have to seperate this with a (,)?) usualy the only way 
to catch something is if you use it enufe that it has been memorized. I
have only recently gotten should and would down. Or if it is so far off that
it doesnt look like a word at all.

When did I have a problem with analogys beyond ->we be difrint people who
think difrintly so it comes off like something else or is uncurtant sometimes
if not carefull<-?
This is the biggist problems with analogies and sayings. I am continually
amazed at the number of people who think the line from _Blazzing Saddles_
that ended with "but no Irish" is a *joke* When it was a statement about the
time. Having listened to my greatgrandpa McGee's stories about his life
growing up I find this very sad. People may know that a black man had to go
threw the back door of a resteront but the dont know that the resteront may
have had a sine that read "Irish not welcome" not to mention the ones that
read "Help wanted-Irish need not aply".

I mentioned adoption because if the costodial parent marries it is possable
for the fauster parent to adopt the children if the non costodial parent 
agrees or has been demed completly unfit (was abusive to the children).
This is the only way that a man can decline fatherhood if he doesnt wish to
be a parent.
If the woman doesnt want the child and the father does then he has to prove
that he can provide for that child in much the same way a woman who turned
her children over to the cort (or had them taken from her) has to inorder
to get them back. It is posable for her to give him custidy but she has to
give it to him and he still has to show that he can take care of the child
just as thou he were adopting or fostering the child in spit of the fact
that it is his child. Not to mention that she has renounced her parenthood
in such a case and often doesnt have to pay suport.
In Iowa he can be made to pay suport even when the child is in foster care.
She doesnt have to show that she can care for the child unless she is turned
in on something (abuse, neglect).

Elf-Kinz
Newsgroups: alt.abortion.inequity,soc.men,soc.women,talk.abortion,alt.feminism