From: pmetzger@snark.shearson.com (Perry E. Metzger)
Subject: Whence property rights?
Organization: Lehman Brothers
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 21:44:59 GMT

glenne@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Neuromancer ) writes:

>At this point when the libertarians tell me that people need an incentive
>to work, I feel extremely disgusted with them, because it is as if
>they cannot even begin to conceive of a non-selfish incentive.  What
>a bunch of half-evolved apes....

I presume, then, that if I go over to your house and take your TV set
that you are going to leave me alone, right?

>Sure the libertarians are correct.  We have no right to
>tax them.  But this is exactly like a pacifist who tells
>someone who is raping and torturing his loved ones that he
>has no right to harm the rapist.

I would hardly argue that -- I think you have every right in the world
to do anything you like to the rapist. He in turn has every right to
try to do something back to you. Indeed, you could even kill someone
WITHOUT their being a person who offended you, and then, naturally,
they could try to exact their revenge for your attempt. In the end,
however, people find it convenient to cooperate within structures in
order to eliminate a perpetual battle of all against all. One of the
things people tend to agree to is that so long as you aren't using
force against me, I won't use it against you. This simple agreement
leads to vast increases in peace and prosperity among people, because
it means that people don't have to look upon every person they pass on
the street as a potential threat to their life.

>Property is theft...  Property is rape...  Let's not beat
>around the bush,  what makes property possible is violence
>and coercion.   In order for property to exist, you will
>either need a government, or a libarbarian's hired thugs.

No, in order for property to exist, you need someone to construct it.
I am sitting on a chair right now. Someone had to build that chair.
They had the choice of constructing the chair or not constructing it.
In a world where they anticipated that someone would trade them things
of value for this chair, they decided it was better to build it. In
such a world, people agree en masse to a fiction called "property"
because it means that people don't have to spend their days and nights
in caves guarding the food they gathered hoping that a stronger gang
doesn't come and take it from them. In the world you propose, however,
the guy building the chair has no "property" and anyone can come up
and simply take the chair. He therefore has no incentive to build the
chair in the first place -- after all, it will only be taken from him
by someone stronger, so why bother building it at all.

In the end, the right to property is the right to withhold one's
labor, and the reason for property is our joint decision that being
able to enjoy the fruit of one's labor is better than having everyone
squatting in equally squalid caves cooking rats over an open fire. By
recognising, as a society, the capacity of people to claim the things
they have constructed and take a measure of control over them, we open
up the capacity to live in split levels with three bedrooms and a
TV/VCR, and eat sushi flown in from halfway around the world. Most
people find that trading their right to steal in exchange for the
right not to be stolen from is a good trade.

The basic rights libertarians recognise are all of this form. You
don't shoot at me, and I don't shoot at you. You don't take the things
I've worked for, and I won't take yours. You respect your half of this
contract, and I'll respect mine. Its all about cooperation and
mutually beneficial behavior. The only time "liberbarbarian thugs"
come into play is when you decide you would rather not respect the
agreement. Fine. As long as you have decided its okay to steal, then
I'll see no reason not to steal from you. If you are willing to
violence to me, then I'm willing to do violence to you. By retaining
your original rights, you lose everything, but you are free to do it.
You need not respect the rules, but then we don't have to respect them
about you, either.

>Property is the antithesis of freedom.  Property is the
>single greatest obstacle to Anarchy.

I'm an anarchist, sir. I'd argue that property and anarchy are
perfectly compatible. The only two anarchist societies that actually
operated for prolonged periods on the face of this earth, in Iceland
and Ireland, agreed with my pronouncement in so far as they had the
concept of private property.

Assuming, of course, that you are not cursed with this desire to hoard
your goods, would you mind if I came over and took all your clothing?
I understand its getting rather cold out, and you happen to be my
size. You wouldn't be a believer in any of these antiquated notions of
private property, would you, and call the police...

>(Did anyone see Blade-Runner?  Remember the scene where the nasty
>replicant saves Harrison Ford's life, even though Harrison Ford was
>trying to kill him?  The replicant values life so much that he even
>saves the life of someone who is trying to kill him.)

Actually, as I recall, Roy Batty saved Deckard after Deckard had
become unarmed and was actually chasing him down, rather than vice
versa. However, I'd say that making important decisions based on a
screenplay, even one directed by Ridley Scott, is not necessarily a
good basis for making decisions on private property.

>So what is the solution?
>Take the property from the libarbarians?  NOT!  We have to
>give the libarbarians the _freedom_ to decide whether or not
>they want to give their property away.

>The principle
>is the same.  We have to value freedom so much, we have to give it to
>those who want to take it away from us.  My radical pacifism is based
>on the same principle.  I value non-violence so much, I give it to
>those who are trying to take it away from me.

In that case, you and those like you will likely find yourselves
undisturbed in my sort of society, and also likely find yourselves
irrelevant. 

--
Perry Metzger		pmetzger@shearson.com
--
		  Just say "NO!" to death and taxes.
			 Extropian and Proud.
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy