From: irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (Brent Irvine)
Subject: Re: DOES AMERICA SAY YES TO JAPAN?
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 19:51:41 GMT

In article <1992Dec14.183432.29244@u.washington.edu> yoichi@carson.u.washington.edu (Yoichi Ii) writes:
>irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (Brent Irvine) writes:

>While I agree that "non-scholastic" is not equal to laziness, your example
>about Bill Gates etal is not particularly relevant to the discussion. I'm
>sure you're not trying to say that education is irrelevant because a few
>successful enterpreneurs didn't graduate from college. More likely these
>people are special (genius, in their own way) and don't need the "usual"
>education. For the masses, however, one needs education.  Bill Gates needs 
>educated masses to make and use his products.

True, about Bill Gates, and I did not mean to sound so 'Anti-Education' -
I guess what I *meant* was that success in the marketplace is not 
synonimous with a high GPA (Most successful people did not do well
in school - would have even been considered undisciplined and lazy -
engineers, scientists, executives, teachers, and so on).
I did not mean to single out just entrepeneurs.

>I don't think American schools per se is no worse than in Japan and probably
>better in many aspects.  What seems to be making the difference is the
>last point you raised: the family.  Family and society in general have to be 
>more supportive about education (like they are about sports).

Oh God No!!!!!  I think the zeal for sports transferred to school would
be too much!  The system woudl explode! (Teacher X just renegotaited
her contract for $1.5 million over then next 2 years!  ;) ).

>If there is one systemic fault I see in American schools, it's the second point
>you made.  It's tempting for me to think the government ought to change 
>financing of schools so that such inequity is eliminated.  Ultimately, however,
>this leads to a deeper question of whether education is a basic right or
>another comodity exchangeable for money. I'd like to think the former, but
>what I think doen't matter much. :-)

It is considered a right since the early days (Mentioned in the Constitution?)
[Legal right:  There SHALL be schools supported by taxes, available for
everyone for no additonal cost]

>
>>Summary:  American Youth are NOT lazy at all, they just don't like school
>>much, just like every generation of Americans back to the founding of the
>>nation.  There are a whole slew of OTHER problems in schools that need to
>>be fixed in some way rather than some nebulous, and incorrect "Those
>>students are just lazy."
>
>There seems to be a conflicting elements in your view (or at least it 
>seems to me).  One is that Americans not liking schools since the early
>days, and the other is that school education requiring more attention (money
>for teacher, funding, etc).  There need not be if you modify the first :-)

Not really.  Americans are as a whole anti-intellectual, but not lazy.  They
will work VERY hard and there is a big work ethic [despite what foreign
politicians say! :) ] around, unfortunatly schooling is neglected by the
state and not given the highest priority in the family (well most anyway).

>
>Bill Gates aside, I think people need more education now a days than in the 
>times of the founding fathers.  You simply need more people with specific 
>technical, scientific, and other knowledges so that visions of Bill Gates 
>and the like can come true.  Dissemination of such knowledges are done most
>efficiently through schools. --> American youth better start "liking" 
>schools. :-)

True, more education is needed, and skills development.  The youth are
not going to "like" schools unless they are training for something
specific, but by the time they are looking for the training [like
technical schools] a few are there, but it is very unstructured, and
difficult.

-- 
+-------------------------+-----------------+---------------------------------+
| Brent L. Irvine         | NE PER INGENIUM | The above personal opinions     |
| irvine@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu | MEUM SED DEI    | can be yours too for only $50!  |
+-------------------------+-----------------+---------------------------------+