HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: holsten@golden.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Illegal targets (was
Date: 26 Jan 1993 20:44:10 GMT
Organization: U.C. College of Natural Resources
NNTP-Posting-Host: golden.berkeley.edu

In article <728030197snx@sloth.equinox.gen.nz> bloodthorn@sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Jennifer Geard) writes:
>Good my lord, I'm slightly embarrassed to ask -- what is the nature of this 
>"don't aim for the groin" rule?  Is it something other kingdoms include in 
>their rules?  Is it one of those things a new fighter is told by the older 
>fighters upon induction into fighterhood?  

As a (former) lady fighter, one of the first things that I was told by
my male instructors was that, although the groin is a legal shot, and
technically only a "leg", it was considered very rude to aim there, and
most men, if hit there, would take it as a kill.

One of the people (male) with whom I practised decided that groin shots
were a *good* idea, and started aiming there on a regular basis.  It
only took a few return blows in the same spot from his opponents before
he realized his mistake.

Joanna Melissa Ronsivalle
(Donna Holsten)
From: ddfr@quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Cowardice, Authenticity and Flames
Date: 21 Jan 93 04:24:26 GMT
Reply-To: ddfr@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago


Dennis objects that Greg is mixing up Dennis's categories of
"Authenticity Maven"  and "Authenticity Fanatic." 

Dennis, apparently defining (or perhaps only describing?)
authenticity fanatics:

"Further, in the original post, I said that poster I was following-up
to had
postulated the existence of people who are emotionally distressed by
seeing people from various times and places mixed together at an SCA
event, these being the fanatics I mentioned."

This seems an odd definition of "fanatic"--I would not, for example,
describe someone who was emotionally distressed at hearing an
out-of-tune instrument in a musical performance as a "musical
fanatic," fanatic being generally a pejorative term, but if that is
what Dennis means by "Authenticity Fanatic," fine.

Later he writes: 

"The question is in what ways is a person who would, for example, 
make an effort to cause a person in inauthentic garb (that was of
course still OK by Corpora) feel uncomfortable (or try to get them
excluded from the SCA), similar to a person who would  make an effort
to make a minority feel uncomfortable (or try to get them excluded
from the SCA)?"

...

"Does this mean being a fanatic is as "morally reprehensable"  as
being a racist ? ..."

It sounds as though Dennis is now using "authenticity fanatic" to
mean someone who "would, for example,  make an effort to cause a
person in inauthentic garb (that was  of course still OK by Corpora)
feel uncomfortable (or try to  get them excluded from the SCA)." That
does not seem to follow from his original definition, nor to have any
direct connection with Terry's post to which he was responding.

Terry did not say anything about making inauthentic people feel
uncomfortable or excluding them from the SCA.  Nor did she suggest
that people who are emotionally distressed by inauthenticity want to
make inauthentic people feel uncomfortable or try to exclude them
from the SCA. The only discomfort she discussed, so far as I can
remember, was discomfort felt by what Dennis is calling authenticity
fanatics--how does one get from that to discomfort inflicted by those
people on others?

If Dennis is talking about people who are made uncomfortable by
inauthentic things and justifying an analogy to racists, he seems to
have left out a middle step--an argument showing that people who are
made uncomfortable by inauthenticity behave in the discourteous way
he describes.

David/Cariadoc
From: pinchefs@castor.hahnemann.edu (Carol Pinchefsky)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Pennsic dates?
Date: 25 Jan 1993 02:12:11 -0500
Organization: Hahnemann University, Philadlephia PA
Distribution: rec
NNTP-Posting-Host: castor.hahnemann.edu


Hi-ho!  Does anyone have the dates of Pennsic War this year?  Several
of us here need to schedule vacation time.

					Thank thee in advance,

				    Carol Pinchefsky/Rose Denoncour
-- 
The Little Neuron That Could:  I think I think, I think I think,...
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 16:20:11 EST
From: Therion <HZS@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: period fighting styles
 <1993Jan14.200718.17257@epas.toronto.edu> <1j78q3INNmvi@usenet.pa.dec.com>
 <93Jan21.151255.19981@acs.ucalgary.ca>

Carolus make a number of interesting proposals, and I wish that I had more time
to sit down and write my opinions of them all. (I really hate it when I'm
expected to be working rather than posting replies to fighter talk.)

However, I will address one point:

>With the possible exception of my head, I'd rather be struck on my
>knees than any other part of my body...An articulated knee joint
>is *incredible* protection. IMHO, the reason we don't strike at
>the knees is simply that when the rules were made, protection
>was not very good, and now it's tradition.

Carolus my friend, your knees must be in much better shape than mine. The
safety problem with knee shots is not a question of armor, it's of shearing
force and joints.  Knees and their support structure are meant to bend
forwards and backwards. Bashing them sideways while they are supporting your
weight and the weight of your armor just isn't the healthiest thing you can do
for your cartilage and ligaments.

                    Therion, arthoscopy survivor, 1984 :)

p.s. however, I do agree with quite a few of your other ideas, and I have a
feeling we're going to see an awful lot of discussion of this on the Rialto in
the near future.
From: ralph@astolastro.lu.se (Ralph Snel)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Period (alcoholic) beverages
Keywords: brewing, vintning
Date: 27 Jan 93 15:22:50 GMT
Organization: Lund Observatory

Greetings,

I have just gotten access to usenet, so I have no Idea what all has
been discussed before...
Just some keywords to provoke a reaction:

	-Brewing & Vintning mailing list
	-_period_ sources (that is: pre 1500...)
	-other activities such as guilds



Claudwick van Naerdinckhove
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Triskadigiphobia
From: kgassner@vax1.umkc.edu
Date: 20 Jan 93 22:59:27 CST
Organization: University of Missouri - Kansas City
NNTP-Posting-Host: vax1.umkc.edu


Greetings!

> Since Drachenwald has the proud honor of being the 13th kingdom
> in the Known World, I'm curious...  do many of the cultures of
> Europe share our understanding that the number 13 is unlucky?

This is a very common superstition in Germany, too. I don't know how they got
the idea. I was born on a 13th and it didn't kill me. And I think, any Monday
Morning is far worse than a friday, 13th.  :-)

	Ekkehart von Wartstein
From: vader@meryl.csd.uu.se (]ke Eldberg)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Triskadigiphobia
Date: 21 Jan 93 18:03:02
Organization: University of Uppsala, Sweden
NNTP-Posting-Host: meryl.csd.uu.se
In-reply-to: kgassner@vax1.umkc.edu's message of 20 Jan 93 22:59:27 CST

William greets all.

Someone asked if Europeans share the American idea that the
number 13 is unlucky. 

Yes. I believe this is a common idea in the western world;
perhaps the origins lie in Judas being the 13th person in
the group of apostles? I don't really know.

But I have heard that most American hotels do not have a
13th floor or a room number 13. They simply skip 13 and
go directly from 12 to 14. Europeans usually do not
take their supersticions quite that far.

William de Corbie
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: greg@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Hossein Ali Qomi (mka Gregory F. Rose))
Subject: Indulgences
Organization: The Rialto
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 05:32:56 GMT

Nikolai Petrovich writes:
 
>Oh exhalted learned effendi, perchance you could
>enlighten this poor humble rustic as to the latin text
>for a generalized indulgence (the fill in the blank sort
>so popular amoungst the unletterd).  Or a pinter to a reference
>with such a text.
 
As a firm believer in payment of the wages of sin, I'll provide a few
references for such texts:
 
K.W. Cameron, _The Pardoner and His Pardons: Indulgences Circulating
in England on the Eve of the Reformation_.  Hartford, 1965.
 
W. Kohler, _Dokumente zum Ablassstreit von 1517_.  Tubingen and
Leizig, 1902.

J.E. Campbell, _Indulgences, the Ordinary Power of Prelates Inferior to
the Pope to Grant Indulgences: An Historical Synopsis and a Canonical
Commentary_.  Ottawa, 1953.

P. Needham, _The Printer and the Pardoner: An Unrecorded Indulgence
Printed by William Caxton for the Hospital of St. Mary Rounceval,
Charing Cross_.  Washington, 1986.

Hossein/Greg
(who wonders why esteemed Frankish Christian clerks like Tadhg are
failing to teach their faithful the heretical ways of their accursed
doctrine, may Allah forgive their ignorance which is as deep as the
abyss of Hell)


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: What is a protege? (was  Re: Being aware...)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 00:40:37 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!  Godfrey wrote:

> `Ranking one's work' in the service field also isn't always easy.  I
> was stunned when a Pelican asked me to take his belt and become his 
> protege; not only didn't I think the work I was doing at events was
> anything out of the ordinary, but I also didn't believe (and still 
> don't) that I had the qualities of a Peer.  He disagreed; go figure.

You seem to have the notion that a protege/apprentice/squire has to
demonstrate skill in order to "earn" his position.  I've run into that
notion frequently, across the SCA, often tied to the idea that these
relationships confer rank on the dependent (which idea I certanly don't
attribute to you, Godfrey).  I find this a peculiar notion.

Why do people think this happens?  Is it a misunderstanding caused by the
behavior of some/all peers?  Is it built into the system?  

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
From: JBrandt@AAA.Uoregon.EDU (Pegasus)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Medieval Village
Followup-To: rec.org.sca
Date: 27 Jan 1993 20:41:13 GMT
Organization: The Polyhedron Group
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: fp1-dialin-1.uoregon.edu

In article <1993Jan25.233807.5913@nwnexus.WA.COM>, pyotr@halcyon.com (Peter
D. Hampe) wrote:
> 
I have been playing around with this idea for some time. E-mail me will
talk


Pegasus
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: greg@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Hossein Ali Qomi (mka Gregory F. Rose))
Subject: Re: Awarding Awards or Ooh, Ah, Oh
Organization: The Rialto
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 04:39:04 GMT

Lord Godfrey recently wrote:

>> Ken (speaking as himself instead of Cinaed de Moray) writes:
>> 
>>         Back on topic:  Royal court has become more and more like the
>> Oscar's and less and less evocative of anything Medieval; the clapping,
>> I can understand and live with, but the credits just bring us one notch
>> closer to a mutual-mastrubation society.
>
>A lot of scribes put a great deal of time and effort into creating those 
>scrolls.  Is it so evil that the Crown should take a second to recognise
>the artisans who serve in that capacity?
>
>It's not much of a reward for hours' worth of work; would you deny us
>even *that* much?

Yes, Lord Godfrey, I would.  Not for any slight to scribes nor from any
undervaluation of their work, would I do so, but for the screaming
mundanity of it.  I find it hard to imagine Henry II of England handing
out writs to his sheriffs and holding each up to be admired by his court,
saying "Br. Louis did this one."  It's a completely unmedieval practice.
Scribes should be recognized by the Crown in ways appropriate to the Crown's
responsibility and dignity: by awards, grants, and patents publicly given
in recognition of their service to the realm, or, failing that, by direct
words of thanks and gifts of largess from the Crown to the scribes.  A
modern "ooh, ah" session is so little thanks as to be demeaning to the
artisan.  A just monarch rewards his right good servants with his best
rewards -- ranks, titles, largess.  It's the way medieval kings did it.

Hossein/Greg
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: icklinck@cayley.uwaterloo.ca (Ian "Rhys" Klinck)
Subject: Name documentation needed!
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 15:57:26 GMT

A friend of mine has made the classical mistake of choosing and using a name
BEFORE consulting documentation, and is now trying to see if he can register
it.
The name he is using is "Blaine Sylvan"... any suggestions for documenting
this or anything close?

Rhys
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: cctimar@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu (Charles the clerk)
Subject: Illegal targets (was: period fighting styles)
Organization: Shire of Glaedenfeld
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 21:58:32 GMT

To all upon the Rialto doth Charles the clerk send his greetings!

Carolus Malvoix writeth:
> combat;-) Imagine how interesting it would be to have
> a limb severed, if you could just grow it right back;-)

If you hit my thumb, lightly, with a hammer, my thumbnail will turn
blue, fall off, and eventually grow back.  This may be interesting, but
it is something I generally try to avoid.

As a non-fighter, I don't know whether this will work, but:

Leave various areas forbidden as targets.

A fighter hit in these areas is still deemed to be hit, just as if the
area were not forbidden.  For example, if you block a shot with your
hand, you lose that arm.

However, a fighter, after accepting the blow, may inform his opponent
and the marshal that he thinks that the opponent was deliberately
targeting a forbidden area.  This would then be tried in a Court of
Chivalry that evening.  The marshal may also decide to suspend the
accused until that Court, if he is confident that the accusation is
justified.

Would this work?
--
    -- Charles, student, in Glaedenfeld, Meridies
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: greg@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Hossein Ali Qomi (mka Gregory F. Rose))
Subject: Re: Getting your corrections right
Organization: The Rialto
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 06:08:36 GMT

Oh dear God, more on the O'Connor brouhaha.  Mr. O'Connor writes, in
criticism of Terry/Angharad:

>I think it's presumptious of you to answer for Hossein. If I
>had people speaking for me on my reasons to sdo things, when I
>was perfectly able to do so myself, I'd feel offended, I think.

I didn't respond to your posting myself for the same reason that I seldom
talk to walls -- I don't think they're listening.  Terry, on the other
hand, found the need to answer a question, which _you_ asked in your
posting, by displaying the selective memory you have of your own diatribes.
I thought it was pissing in the wind, myself, but she's a nicer person
than I am.  I am warmed by your concern that I would be offended at
Terry speaking for me.  I'm not offended at all, and not just because she's
my wife, but because I trust her judgment infinitely more than I would
ever think to trust yours.

Again, quoting Terry, Mr. O'Connor writes:

>] In Service to the Society,
>
>Not with this post, you're not.

You certainly talk the talk, but I've not seen one iota of evidence that
you walk the walk.  You've insulted Cariadoc, you've insulted Angharad/Terry,
want to insult anybody else who's been around the Society longer and
contributed more to the Society than you have?

It seems to me that all you have brought to this forum is a pathetic
bravado looking for a fight.  I'm not going to give you one.  I don't
fight with children.  It's why I didn't answer your previous posting
and why, after this correction of your assumption of my offense, I shan't
try to argue with a solipsist.

Hossein/Greg

Hossein/Greg
From: doconnor@sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Psuedo-illegal targets (was Re: Illegal targets (was period 
	fighting styles))
Date: 22 Jan 93 05:59:49
Organization: Intel i960(tm) Architecture
	<9301211535.AA33107@hick.asd.contel.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.intel.com
In-reply-to: shick@europa.eng.gtefsd.com's message of Thu, 21 Jan 1993 15:35:33 GMT


I do not dispute that hands were undoubtable legal and probably
prefered targets in period. 

You could, with basket hilts on every sword, attempt to make
hands (or more accurately the hilt) a legal target. There's
a couple of minor unsolved problems with that for me : how to
count glances, and the IMHO neccesity for the basket hilt to
be not quite perfect protection if you're going to be able to
throw good wraps. Probably both of these can be solved.

A more difficult problem arises with (what I always thought
this was the motivation for excluding hands) polearms. Having
caught the odd unintended blow to my hand on the (common)
hockey glove, I don't think hockey gloves alone would
be enough to prevent serious injury if hands were legal
(and therefor probably more ofen struck) targets.

Gauntlets solve this problem for polearms, but also raise
the minimum cost/effort needed to be a Piker, er, Pikeman.
Given the need for lots of poles when at war, I think
this would cause a serious resource problem.

Perhaps we could have a rule that hands were legal targets
on S&S weilders and not legal on polearm weilders. But
I'm leary of this. I've seen how tough it is to get people to
learn and, in the heat of battle, remember the safe way to kill
from behind. I'm afraid new fighters would only get half the 
message about hands, and then too many polearm weilders might
get broken hands. I myself have forgotten a rule or two occasionally,
tho fortuneately never to any detrimental effect.

--
Dennis O'Connor			doconnor@sedona.intel.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: klosky@cage.Colorado.EDU (KLOSKY JAMES LEDLIE )
Subject: Re: period fighting styles
Reply-To: klosky@cage.Colorado.EDU (KLOSKY JAMES LEDLIE )
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 16:18:03 GMT

In article <1993Jan22.041434.18655@midway.uchicago.edu>, ddfr@quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman) writes:
>
>Charles Parr asks about evidence on shield durability, and suggests
>that period padding was much inferior to foam. On the former, it is
>worth noting that holmgang rules permitted each combatant three
>shields, presumably used in succession. On the latter, I have been
>fighting for years with horsehair cushions as helm padding; they work
>fine.
>
>David/Cariadoc

To add to this, isn't there a story about William Marshall having to be
cold-chiseled (sp?) out of his helmet after winning a tournement?  I don't
have docs for this story, does anybody know if its true?  If it is true, 
that would say to me that the padding used in period was sufficient to
withstand multiple steel-bending blows without the occupent becoming
senseless.

==================================================================
Otto the Obscure                       klosky@bechtel.Colorado.EDU
Caer Galen, Outlands
     -and-
Ledlie Klosky, Student
Boulder, Colorado
==================================================================
From: Beth.Appleton@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Heraldic Questions...
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 12:49:18

 CX> from--but what do you say
 CX> to Miklos or Vajk, two serious, authenticity-minded 
 CX> people who are forbidden to
 CX> pass heraldry appropriate to their persona?  You're 
 CX> making them combine French
 CX> heraldry with their Hungarian everything else, and 
 CX> creating the very problem
 CX> you're trying to solve. 
 I don't *think* this is the exact problem.  It is actually possible to 
 create armory quite consistant with the current rules, which also 
 reflects national character.  We are denying the Hungarians one 
 specific charge -- which is only found in their culture -- not the 
 remainder of their armory.  Check the device of Jan w'Orzeldom (sp) 
 for polish-style armory which is completely legal within the current 
 rules of the College of Arms, for example.
      Gwenllian Cwmystwyth

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: doconnor@sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Authentic (and dates used)
Date: 25 Jan 93 18:29:54
Organization: Intel i960(tm) Architecture
NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.intel.com
In-reply-to: n9040513@henson.cc.wwu.edu's message of 23 Jan 93 22:40:16 GMT


n9040513@henson.cc.wwu.edu (Andrea Aldridge) writes:
] Maybe I'm showing my age, but whatever happened to the cut-off date of 1650?
] What do I do with all my Stuart garb?

:-) Tell people you're a persona who was ahead of his or her time,
:-) fashion-wise. After all, many things wander around the world
:-) for a bit before they make it into the records.
--
Dennis O'Connor			doconnor@sedona.intel.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Made in Atlantia 
From: bloodthorn@sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Jennifer Geard)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 05:51:36 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Lethargy Inc.


  >  Hm. I should have thought a form of *fabrior* would be more appropriate...

I bow to the scholarship of Tadhg and Hossein concerning the appropriate 
Latin forms.  Might I most humbly suggest, however, that the Alfred jewel, 
thought to be a pointer commisioned by Alfred the Great, King of Wessex, is 
decorated with the words which my faulty memory recalls as "AElfred me 
fecit".  I gather the first person statement is not all that unusual in 
Anglo-Saxon ring inscriptions either.  

Pagan le Chaunster
________________________________________________________________________
Jennifer Geard                         bloodthorn@sloth.equinox.gen.nz
Christchurch, New Zealand
From: betel@camelot.bradley.edu (Robert Crawford)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Atmosphere?
Date: 26 Jan 93 17:59:49 GMT
Article-I.D.: camelot.betel.728071189
Organization: Bradley University

moonman@camelot.bradley.edu (Craig Levin) writes:

>	Perhaps the biggest thing, to me, is the majority of people in
>garb and the avoidance of mundane matters.

	This is what makes the biggest difference to me, too.

	Of course, I'm one of the people who get _really_ annoyed when
someone starts talking about mundane matters during feast. This means
you, Craig. :-)

--
	"See the light at the end of the tunnel? Well, just imagine
the headlights it's coming off of..."

Rob Crawford 					betel@camelot.bradley.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Narrow Focus Events
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 00:33:56 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!  Dennis O'Connor wrote:

> It irks me a little to constantly see the "costume-party" phrase, whith
> the negative connotation it carries in these discussions, in such wide
> use by the proponents of "narrow-focus" events...  if I put on garb
> and go to an event where we discuss making armour, sword fighting,
> medeaval history, SCA history, weaving, brewing, court dance and the
> like, and we eat various medieval-style food and drink, I don't think of
> that as a "costume party", I think of it as an SCA event.

I agree; it is one kind of SCA event.  A narrow-focus, strongly-in-persona
pseudo-re-enactment is another kind of SCA event.  The SCA has room for
both, and a great deal more.  It isn't written anywhere that every event
has to appeal to exactly the same interests.

> I still don't understand why people need SCA sanction to hold their
> events with "narrow recreative environments".

You lost me, Dennis.  Isn't the obvious answer "For the same reason that
people want any other kind of event to have SCA sanction?"  I.e., insurance
coverage, publicity, access to seed money.  What don't you understand?

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca