HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tim@ear-ache.mit.edu (Tim Wilson)
Subject: Re: Rally round the FAG and sing a GLAD song
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
	<18436@autodesk.COM>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 12:08:33 GMT

(Nelson:  is this the political flame war you were seeking to avoid
elsewhere?) 

In article <18436@autodesk.COM> owen@autodesk.com (D. Owen Rowley) writes:

   I have attempted to point out the solid foundation of Libertarianisms
   ethical - social - and political *principles* many times, and have 
   been met with fears and inuendo time after time.

I think it was Polonious (Hamlet, Act I, Scene 3) who said "Neither a
social democrat nor a libertarian be." 

Both social democracy and libertarianism are religions.  Both have
foundations that any individual, given the right frame of mind and
historical setting, might find consistent with reality as she or he
has experienced it.  Neither foundation is any more solid than the
that of any particular religion.  One can read Fountainhead or
Capital, Bible or Bhagavad-Gita.  In the grand scope of human 
existence, I doubt that one book or philisophy will be proven an all
inclusive statement of The Truth.  There's always seems to be my
truth, your truth, his or her truth.  

   this brings me to "owens theory of queer".

   I am an elitist. I think that I am really quite something.
   I am creative, I am bright, I am witty, I am a great cocksucker,
   and I'm proud of every bit of it.

   <...>

   I think that queer sexuality is creative sexuality, and that
   creative people live more life in a day than their duller peers do
   in years. I think the dull people get jealous.
   I wouldn't trade with them for anything.

You've talked elsewhere about how hard it is to get people out of the
closet.  There are hundreds of thousands of queer Jane and Joe Shmoes
out there who I think you'd label dull.  They work as janitors or
dieticians or meat packers or bus drivers.  They don't network
electroncially; they don't use "network" as a verb.  They live lives of
quiet desparation.  They are as queer as you or me.  They might even
be better pussylickers or cocksuckers.  Yet your elitism might be 
consistent with their world view that the only "out" people are the
flamboyant, creative, artists types.  If the above excerpts reflect
your theory of queer, how do you reconcile it with the lives of those
people?  Can you dispose of them with such ease?

--
Tim Wilson
Internet:  tim@ear-ache.mit.edu	
UUCP:  mit-eddie!mit-athena!tim
Bad Colorado.  No business.
Xref: sparky soc.motss:57915 alt.sex.motss:2214
From: nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.sex.motss
Subject: Re: Tim Chain Porn (Re: High School Athletes (lusher))
Date: 22 Jan 93 03:13:03 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1993Jan22.031303.10692
Reply-To: nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR

In article <1993Jan21.190006.12270@unocal.com> stgprao@st.unocal.COM (Richard Ottolini) writes:
>Most be a story about trolls.  There is a whole generation of
>20-something computer hackers that have never seen a VAX.

then there are the computer hackers like me, who are barely 20 now,
and used to administrate a VAX, and liked it.

11/785 *snap*
                __
nelson@reed.edu \/                   There is absolutely no other possibility
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: henry@ADS.COM (Henry Mensch)
Subject: Re: Good lord!
Organization: Advanced Decision Systems; a div of Booz, Allen & Hamilton
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 18:00:40 GMT

anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) wrote: 
->In article <74293@cup.portal.com> Furr@cup.portal.com
->(George Dalton Madison) writes:
->
->>Thaaang realizes in astonishment:
->
->>>When I did, I found *two*
->>>*hundred* and *fifteen* messages stashed away!
->
->>Thanks, John.  You've made me feel better about having let 15
->>messages build up unanswered..... but then, I took care of
->>that yesterday....  ;-)
->
->You boyz want numbers?  I'll give you numbers!  Well, nevermind,
->no I won't, it's too depressing.

whatta load of size queens!

--
# henry mensch / booz, allen & hamilton, inc.  / <henry@ads.com>
# "fight the real enemy."  -- sinead o'connor, and many others.
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Subject: Re: Are Gay Men Richer, Really?
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 19:37:38 GMT

In article <1k6pjh$bss@agate.berkeley.edu> gwh@soda.berkeley.edu (George William Herbert) writes:
>> Clay Bond was never vulgar, or stupid, for that matter.
>As a at least two-time recipient of Clay's definition of 
>"Kindler, Gentler Usenet Flame Wars" the only response I
>have is:
>	Bullshit.

Goodness, George: you'd think I said he never flamed anyone.
I said he was never vulgar or stupid; he was always deliberate.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
From: ric@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Graffiti 404-972-4999)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Deep Space Nine: Queer Kardassians?
Date: 22 Jan 1993 23:46:46 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization
NNTP-Posting-Host: hal.ai.mit.edu

In article <1993Jan21.160224.29982@netcom.com> stephena@netcom.com (Stephen Arrants) writes:

>I'm wondering what the writers are going to do with the 
>Benjamin Sisko/Jadzia Dax relationship. Sisko was very very good friends with 
>Dax when she was a he.

Probably a similar tension that we see in the Picard/Bev Crusher relationship
on ST:TNG..... a sort of melancholy for the way things "Could have been..."


-- 
 -Ric     __                       __                                 __
          \/   ric@gnu.ai.mit.edu  \/   Graffiti BBS  404 972-4999    \/
                 GEnie: GRAFFITI      PO Box 3176, Lithonia GA 30058

Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: coren@speed.osf.org (Robert Coren)
Subject: Re: Congressional Contacts on Military Unban?
Organization: Open Software Foundation
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 22:09:24 GMT

In article <C1I5nq.IGA@unix.amherst.edu>, twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) writes:
> In article <1993Jan26.152523.17237@news.columbia.edu> jsb16@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Jennifer S Broekman) writes:
> 
> >State                 Senator                Phone        Fax
> >--------------------------------------------------------------
> >Massachusetts         Kennedy                 4543        2417
> >                      Kerry                   2742
> 
> You know, I honestly wish I didn't live in Massachusetts.  I might
> actually be able to make a difference for my state.

Well, I called them anyway. I figured it wouldn't hurt to give them
reinforcement, especially as Kennedy chose this moment to announce
that he was (finally) signing on as a sponsor of the Federal gay
rights bill. I wanted to make sure that I was recorded in favor. (The
person who took the call said that the calls from Massachusetts were
overwhelmingly favorable.)

I also called my Rep., Teddy's nephew Joe.

What *I* hope is that the gay and supportive folks in the 3rd and 6th
are *deluging*  Blute and Torkildsen with calls.
From: asente@adobe.com (A Usenet Pal)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: CALL LEVI FOR SUPPORT
Date: 26 Jan 93 18:52:24 GMT
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated

In article <1993Jan15.133551.1108@bradley.bradley.edu> larry@bradley.bradley.edu (L. D. Stratton) writes:
>I finally got around to calling the 800 number to tell Levi I 
>was pleased by their withdrawl of support for the Boy Scouts.
>
>They practically begged me to encourage others to call so,
>         DO IT!!
> 
>    1-800-872-5384

Also, if you buy a Levi's product, give them a call and let them know that
their policy was instrumental in your decision to buy Levi's and not something
else.

      -paul asente
	   asente@adobe.com   ...decwrl!adobe!asente   moo-bear@cs.stanford.edu

They called up to Alice, who, having put on an ingeniously constructed
bathing slip, met them in the pool.
From: as010b@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Scorpii)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Sexual harassment from queers
Date: 27 Jan 93 22:49:01 GMT
Organization: University of Rochester - Rochester, New York

In <9301272110.AA14904@lynx.corp.frame.com> jrd@frame.com (James Drew) writes:


>I still maintain that the most significant difference between men and women is
>that women can print their names in the snow.

Hold up...do you mean "can't"?  I mean, *I* can print my name in the snow,
and, well, I have a penis...

Drewcifer
-- 
***************************************************************************
** Andrew David Simchik, registered Scorpio ************* SCHNOPIA! *******
***************************************************************************
as010b@uhura.cc.rochester.edu
From: onr@netcom.com (D. Owen Rowley)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Into the streets!
Keywords: Clinton, advisers, resistance to change, controversy
Date: 26 Jan 93 23:38:46 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <lm0q29INN793@news.bbn.com> rrizzo@star-trek.bbn.com (Ron Rizzo) writes:
>WE MUST AGITATE, beginning now and for months, maybe years, to come.  We must
>take to the streets and the airwaves, to local and national governments, and
>continually pressure the Clinton administration not only to not renege on or
>fatally compromise campaign promises but to act soon and effectively.

I think it is important that we keep a steady course, and maintain
visibility.  I think it is important to pressure the media to show balanced
coverage regarding the lives of Gay citizens.

I agree that we must keep pressure on, but I think that we need to be
smart about it.

Your tales of the early civil rights struggle show us examples of
what to expect and what has gone before. I would also add that there
was another factor which was not uncommon.
the agent provocateur.
These are shills in the crowd whose purpose is to push demonstrations
over the edge and into senseless violence. the aim is to discredit the
movement.

The way to spot 'em is their shoes BTW :-)

>For example, I don't think lifting the gay&lesbian ban in the military is a
>sure thing at all.  If there isn't a lot of continuing pressure on Clinton
>himself as well as his advisers, he may try to quietly abandon any change in
>the status quo.  

I think it is , every indication has been that he is firm in his conviction.

LUX ./. owen

-- 
D. Owen Rowley onr@netcom.com ( also owen@autodesk.com )
[ EU-PHORIA: A STATE OF WELL BEING ]
Euphoria is my natural state, I do what I enjoy and an abundance 
of all good fortune comes to me for it.
From: Furr@cup.portal.com (George Dalton Madison)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: The Fall(well) of the U.S.
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 93 15:30:33 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
  <1993Jan21.183414.172@samba.oit.unc.edu> <C18Eux.6Bq@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
  <1993Jan23.173417.29006@dvorak.amd.com>

Tom Barrett writes:
>Until "bill@oval.gov" works (don't try it, it doesn't work, and it
>makes the NSA's internet monitor get paranoid,
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This is *BAD*?  Besides, being paranoid is what the NSA is paid to
*DO*.

 
() Horse sense is the thing a horse has that keeps it from
() betting on people.
-----
[> George D. Madison | NBCS: B8f+t+w-e+s+k+a!cv | Just say NO to razors! <]
[> It's a BEAR thing -- you wouldn't understand. <|> furr@cup.portal.com <]
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: mdrayton@sr.hp.com (Mike Drayton)
Subject: Re: Are Gay Men Richer, Really?
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 23:04:27 GMT
Organization: HP Sonoma County (SRSD/MWTD/MID)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.9 PL6]

Jess Anderson (anderson@macc.wisc.edu) wrote:
> 
> In article <18356@autodesk.COM> owen@autodesk.com (D.  Owen
> Rowley) writes:
> 
> >Financial analysis shows that gay men have more disposable
> >income than their strayt peers.
> 
> This is an often-repeated remark.  I've seen it used by
> those opposed to us.  I've never seen the evidence used to
> support the claim.  Anyone have a pointer to solid research?
> (The _Advocate_ probably won't do.)
> 
This ain't much of a pointer, but my recollection is that the
conclusions were released by an outfit called Overlooked 
Opinions, and that the research had been done in order to
demonstrate the value of placing advertising in gay and
lesbian publications.  I have never seen any information
about the methods used in collecting the data.  It's been
published everywhere from the Advocate to the Wall Street
Journal, but I'm sorry to admit I don't have any useful
references.
 
Mike Drayton      mdrayton@sr.hp.com       Hewlett-Packard Co.
                                           Santa Rosa, California
From: danny.ingram@business.gatech.edu (Danny Ingram)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Discharge status
Date: 21 Jan 93 15:21:53 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology

A few months ago I appealed across the net for help with the discharge 
proceedings which had been initiated against me by my commanding officer
because I stated that I am gay.  Since then I have not had any positive news
to report so I have not posted.  

For those interested, a soldier faced with a discharge has two options.  The
soldier can request to appear before a Board of Officers or waive this right
and allow the commanding officer to recommend a type of discharge.  The 
soldier also has the right to counsel from the Judge Advocate General (JAG).

No one in the military, including the JAG officer appointed to defend me, was
willing to admit they believed Clinton would change the policy on the ban.  
My JAG counsel recommended I request the Board of Officers which would take
4 to 6 months.  The commander was not at all happy with this decision.  He was
obviously under a great deal of pressure to get me out as quickly as possible.
He danced around a number of issues, stating how detrimental the proceedings 
of a Board would be, even stating that my personal welfare would be at risk if
I should remain in his unit.

Because the commander was so dead set against the Board idea he sent me back 
the JAG officer for further counsel.  I am supposed to report back to the
commander sometime this week.  

On the front page of USA Today there is an article titled "Ban of gays in 
military to be lifted".  I don't want to get cocky, and I know the military
well enough to know they will continue the discharge proceedings until a 
Pentagon directive orders them to stop, but I just can't fucking wait to ask
my commanding officer if he saw the article in USA Today!

The road ahead will not be easy, especially considering the commander's 
veiled threat, but I feel we are about to see a big wall come down!  I wanted
to share this with you folks.  Thanks for the words of support I received.
Keep me in your thoughts.
                                                 SP4 Danny Ingram
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: graeme@drummond.demon.co.uk (Graeme Hillary)
Subject: Re: VAX - The incredible Facts!
Reply-To: graeme@drummond.demon.co.uk
Distribution: world
X-Mailer: cppnews $Revision: 1.20 $
Organization: not
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 23:16:56 +0000

In article <1993Jan23.233445.10623@reed.edu> nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar) writes:
> In article <1993Jan23.134332.27229@spdcc.com> joe@spdcc.com (Joseph Francis) writes:
> >VAX means fitted carpets that stay brigher, softer, deeper, longer!
> 
> And remember,
> 
> Nothing sucks like a VAX.
>                 __

N.B. It also comes with an exciting range of moulded plastic crevice tools!


===Graeme


Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Subject: Good But Better?
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 09:04:08 GMT


In article <18436@autodesk.COM> owen@autodesk.com (D. Owen
Rowley) writes:

>this brings me to "owens theory of queer".

>I am an elitist.  I think that I am really quite something.
>I am creative, I am bright, I am witty, I am a great
>cocksucker, and I'm proud of every bit of it.

You *are* an elitist.  But then, there are elitists of
several types.  Also, you are those other things too
(well, I don't know first-hand about that one, but then,
I wouldn't -- too dull).  Most importantly, you have every
reason to be proud.

>I was hesitant during my youth to let this light shine, but
>in time I got over it.  ( thus I shed some light with every
>communication in the form of my LUX signoff)

Any strategy that helps a person recover from the
strictures, repressions, confusions, false starts,
devaluations of self, or whatever it is for that person, is
a good and necessary thing, I think.  And sharing the light
is also a very good thing, for many live in a darkness we
know to be terrible, and there's the prospect of their being
helped by our example.

>I don't need a holy book to tell me that I should treat
>others fairly, and I hold a low opinion of those who do.

This is probably a major error on your part.  Besides,
you're not consistent about this, citing Druidic texts and
your own "I often say" canon regularly.  Of course, I agree
with you insofar as we should do our own thinking and not be
mindless adherents to received orthodoxies.  I am certain
there is much good to be got from that Yahweh Cult item, the
Bible, even from the New Testament.

The basis of my objection is your blanket rejection of the
spiritual values of others because you don't esteem them
for yourself.  A person can't be *that* sure without being
doctrinaire him- or herself.

>I think that queer sexuality is creative sexuality, and that
>creative people live more life in a day than their duller
>peers do in years.  I think the dull people get jealous.  I
>wouldn't trade with them for anything.

This is simply absurd, Owen.  The vast majority of humanity
just got assigned to the dull set.  They wouldn't trade with
you, either, but the issue is: where does that leave us?  In
your formulation, "creative" is a battering ram about the
head of anyone you decide isn't creative.  The presumption
is that "dull" people are less than you, as people.

The long and the short of it is that you can celebrate
yourself -- we all should, being divine -- as much as you
like, as much as you feel you need to, without in the same
breath putting down those you must live with, willy nilly.
As principled stands go, this last one of yours seems not
that principled, to me.

-- 
[Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin]
[Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson]
[Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888]
[---------> Discrimination, Bigotry, and Hate are not Family Values <---------]
Xref: sparky soc.motss:58080 ba.motss:2157
From: kmeyer@aero.org (Kraig R. Meyer)
Newsgroups: soc.motss,ba.motss
Subject: Announcing la-motss...the second coming
Date: 22 Jan 93 16:59:54
Organization: The Aerospace Corporation, El Segundo, CA
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: solarium.aero.org


We've reorganized an existing Los Angeles/Southern California dl to better
serve the community.

If you're interested in discussion of GLB issues, subscribe to la-motss.
If you're interested only in getting announcements of interest to the
southern california GLB community, subscribe to la-motss-announce.

-----

Welcome to LA-motss(*)--the online social and political forum for
gay/lesbian/bisexual issues in the Los Angeles-Southern California
area.  LA-motss has been divided into two lists.  For general
unmoderated discussion, send mail to:

        la-motss@flash.usc.edu

For ANNOUNCEMENTS ONLY (no general discussion), send mail to:

        la-motss-announce@flash.usc.edu

Anything posted to the announcements list is automatically forwarded
to the discussion list.  You may choose to receive announcements only,
or receive both announcements and general discussion.  To request
changes, additions, or removals from these lists, please mail:

        la-motss-request@flash.usc.edu

PLEASE DO NOT SEND REQUESTS TO BE ADDED OR REMOVED TO THE ENTIRE LIST.

This mail list is set up in a manner that makes it difficult for
anyone other than the list maintainers to find out who is on the list.
If you notice any problems with the list, please feel free to contact the
list maintainer at the -request address above.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
| The opinions expressed above are my own and do not necessarily          |
| represent those of The Aerospace Corporation, El Segundo, CA.           |
|									  |
| Kraig R. Meyer		   	                 kmeyer@aero.org  |
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Xref: sparky soc.motss:58884 alt.sex.motss:2286
From: mickw@autodesk.com (Mick Washbrook)
Newsgroups: soc.motss,alt.sex.motss
Subject: Re: Mailing bricks, etc. (Was: Re: Fighting fundies)
Date: 28 Jan 93 21:33:47 GMT
Followup-To: soc.motss

In article <74232@cup.portal.com>, Furr@cup.portal.com (George Dalton Madison) writes:
> 
> [*] I think how this happened is that I placed an order with a
> mailorder clothing company called Cheyenne Outfitters; they
> apparently sell their mailing list, and the catalogs I've gotten
> have progressed through western apparel, through hunting clothing
> and equipment to a catalog full of stuff intended to appeal to a
> _Soldier of Fortune_ type mentality. I suspect that it is from one
> of the latter that the NRA got my address.

Ha! I'm on their mailing list too, and got the same poll. I did, however,
keep the temporary membership card, and carry it with me at all times,
always ready to whip it out in case my butchness is ever called into
question. But I don't think I'll be hearing from the NRA again somehow.



--
Death to all fanatics!!

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
From: gal@crchh503.bnr.ca (Gene Lavergne)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Maya Angelou's poem
Date: 27 Jan 93 17:24:03 GMT
Reply-To: gal@crchh503.bnr.ca (Gene Lavergne)
Organization: Bell Northern Research

In article <1k1nivINN3mv@menudo.uh.edu>, babyd@protein.uh.edu (baby djojonegoro) writes:
|>In article <1993Jan24.193239.1@hamp.hampshire.edu> hjanules@hamp.hampshire.edu  
|>writes:
|>> Does anyone have a copy of Maya Angelou's inaugural poem?  I don't read the
|>> paper, so if someone has a published copy, could they please post it? . . .
|>
|>
|>I just read in the paper that Random House is planning to publish hardback  
|>editions of it.  This poem never fails to move me whenever I hear or read it.

It is also in the very beginning of the Feb. 1 issue of US News and
World Report.

It has consistently brought me to tears whenever I read it.  It
evokes within me a hope for the future I have not felt for the past
12 years.
--

| gal@bnr.ca (Gene A. Lavergne) | In all of opera, I most identify |
| ESN 444-4842 / (214) 684-4842 | with the character of Elektra.   |
| PO Box 851986, Richardson, TX | That often worries me.           |
| USA 75085-1986 | Opinions expressed here are mine and not BNR's. |
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: era@csn.org (Ed Arnold)
Subject: REQUEST FOR ASSISTANCE
Originator: era@teal.csn.org
Keywords: Extremists, Christian Right, Amendment 2
Reply-To: era@csn.org (Ed Arnold)
Organization: Citizens Project; Colorado Springs, CO
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 01:47:27 GMT

We of the Citizens Project (Colorado Springs, CO) are looking for people
who could assist us in re-distributing the Citizens Project Newsletter
to non-Internet computer services.  If you have an account on any such
services (CompuServe, FidoNet, Genie, Prodigy, America Online, and others)
and are willing to help us, please let us know via return email to
era@ncar.ucar.edu.

The Citizens Project is a Colorado Springs, CO - based group of volunteers
who seek to prevent extremists from eliminating our fundamental freedoms,
in the face of growing political and religious intolerance in Colorado.
--
Ed Arnold * Boulder, CO * 303-497-1253(voice,weekday) * 303-494-6949(voice)
internet: era@csn.org * compuserve: internet:era@csn.org * bitnet: era@ncario
-- 
Ed Arnold * Boulder, CO * 303-497-1253(voice,weekday) * 303-494-6949(voice)
internet: era@csn.org * compuserve: internet:era@csn.org * bitnet: era@ncario
Newsgroups: soc.motss