From: d89-gsk@nada.kth.se (Gani Skepi)
Subject: Re: Jesus not a prophet, Son of God
Organization: Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 20:46:32 GMT

In article <WIGGINS.92Nov17002849@hurricane.cs.odu.edu>, wiggins@hurricane.cs.odu.edu (Samuel E Wiggins) writes:
|> In-reply-to: d89-gsk@nada.kth.se's message of Mon, 16 Nov 1992 11:43:45 GMT
|> 
|> In article <1992Nov16.114345.4695@kth.se> d89-gsk@nada.kth.se (Gani Skepi) writes:
|>    |> |In response to Richard Pitts on what does the Qur'an say about Jesus:
|>    |> 
|>    |> I didn't ask where are they different.  The Quran gives evidence that 
|>    |> Jesus is different than all other people - that he was born of a virgin
|>    |> and was himself sinless.
|>    |> 
|> 
|>    It also says:
|>    In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
|>    (3:59)"The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He
|>    created him from dust, then said to him: "be": and he was."
|> -------
|> Jesus Himself said, in the NT:
|> "And no man has ascended into heaven, except he that came down from heaven,
|> even the Son of man who is in heaven."  (John 3:13)
|> Jesus used to call himself the "Son of man."  Do prophets come from heaven,
|> or aren't they born and don't they live normally?

Hmmmm.. How does that verse go with (Genesis 5:24) and (Hebrews 11:5).
A contradiction??? The true inspired words of God don't contradict......

(Gen 5:24)" And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him."

(Heb 11:5) "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; 
and was not found, because God had translated him: ..."

Secondly in what way do you mean he came down down from heaven? As a 30 year 
old baby (or something like that) or as the rest of us through the womb of
our mothers???? 

|> -------
|>    And John the Babtist when he was in his mothers womb he also had the
|>    holy Spirit (Ghost), if you remember.
|>    Before Jesus (pbuh) departed he called his disciples and told them :
|>    recieve ye the holy Spirit.
|>    So when he said recieve, either they recieved or he was bluffing.
|>    So either Jesus (pbuh) is a lier or else they recieved.
|> 
|>    "...Because if I do not go away, the Comforter will not come to you;
|>    but if I go away, I will send Him to you."
|> 
|>    So Jesus (pbuh) has to *GO AWAY* if he should come. Otherwise he wont
|>    come.
|>    But the Holy Ghost was there whith them all the time, and they rec-
|>    ieved "him/her" when Jesus (pbuh) was there *WITH THEM*. He didn't have
|>    to *GO AWAY* first so that he could be able to *SEND* "him/her" to them.
|> -------
|> Wrong.  You make up your own truth.  This is not what Isa said.
|> Isa al-Masih did say, "But, I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage
|> that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper shall not come to you;
|> but if I go, I will send Him to you... But when He, the Spirit of truth
|> comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His
|> own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to
|> you what is to come.  HE SHALL GLORIFY ME; for He shall take of Mine, and
|> shall disclose it to you." (John 16:7,13-14)
|> The Holy Spirit's job is to glorify, praise, work for, Jesus the Messiah.

" *work for*, Jesus the Messiah." ?????
Do I or you make up your own truth?? 
You must mean work for the same God as Jesus (pbuh) worked for....

Does Muhammed (pbuh) honor and glorify Jesus (pbuh)?
Islam is the *ONLY* non-Christian faith that has it as an article of
faith to believe in Jesus (pbuh) as the Messiah.
If God hadn't told Muhammed (pbuh) that Jesus (pbuh) was a Messenger
of God and should be honored, you can just imagen what we Muslims
would had said about him.
Today *ONE BILLION* Muslims honor Jesus (pbuh) as they honor all the
Messengers of God.
Because of what?
Because Muhammed (pbuh) told us to do it.

How do you glorify a person?
You glorify him/her by telling the Truth about him/her.
You don't say more about him/her than s/he did and you don't say less
of what s/he did. You just tell the TRUTH.

Muhammed (pbuh) did that.

Still lets take a deaper look at the verses....

(John 16:12)" I have still many things to say to you, but you are
not able to bear them, or to take them upon you or to grasp them
now."

So this means that the Spirit of Truth will come with some *NEW* stuff
that the disciplies haven't heard *BEFORE*.

(John 16:13)"But when He, the Spirit of Truth comes, HE WILL GUIDE
YOU INTO ALL THE TRUTH. For He will not speak His own message; but
He will tell whatever He hears (* from God *), and He will announce
and declare to you the things that are to come."


So the Spirit of Truth will tell the disciplies *NEW8 things and guide
mankind into *ALL THE TRUTH*.
This Spirit of Truth will give you the solution to *ALL* problems.

In the last 2000 YEARS this Spirit of Truth that you Christians claim
to be the holy Ghost has *NOT* given you the solution to *MANY BIG* prob-
lems yet.
There are numerous problems that Christianity hasn't got the solution
to.

Let me give you some examples:

The problem of alcohol and drugs.
Which *NEW* solution has the Ghost given to you?
No one.
The problem of surplus women.
What new truth did the Ghost give you concerning this?
No one.
The problem of race.
The biggest Racists in the world are in your Christian countries here
in the West.
What *NEW* Truth.

Tell me just *ONE* new truth that the Ghost has learned you in all these
*TWO THOUSAND* years that Jesus (pbuh) wasn't able to teach to his disciplies.

Were is the solution to all the problems that the Ghost should had
given to you according to Jesus (pbuh) *OWN* words?

But Muhammed (pbuh) brought a solution to *ALL* of them.
No one who knows about the Quran and the Hadith can say that Muhammed
(pbuh) didn't give the solution to all problems.
That there are people who because of there own interests or customs
don't like them is another thing.
Whether you like it or don't like it Muhammed (pbuh) gave the solution
to all problems.

|> -------
|>    It must be referring to someone else....
|>    Propably the *prophet*.....
|> 
|>    John:(1:19-21)"And this is the testimony of John when the Jews sent Priests
|>    and Levites to him from Jerusalem to ask him who are you?
|>    He confessed and did not try to conceal it, but acknowledged, I am not
|>    the Christ! They asked him. What then? Are you Elijah? And he said, I am not!
|>    Are you the Prophet? And he answered, No!"
|> -------
|> The Prophet they referred to was Jesus the Messiah, the Son of God. 

It couldn't have been as they asked three questions regarding three persons...
The Jews of that day expected three persons to come: A prophet like Elijah, the
Messiah and the Prophet.

Three questions = Three persons = Three different personalities..

(.. :-).. Three T:s almost like the famous three L:s.. :-)..).
 
|> The Jews called Him a prophet (Matthew 21:11, "And the multitudes were saying,
|> "This is the prophet Jesus, from Nazareth in Galilee.").

The Messiah was supposed to be a messenger of God, a prophet so it falls natural.

|> He DID NOT CLAIM to be a prophet.  Look:
|> Jesus speaking of Himself, "An evil and adulterous generation craves for a
|> sign... behold, something greater than Jonah is here. ...behold, something
|> greater than Solomon is here."  (Matthew 12:39,41,42)
|> The people thought He was a prophet; yet He claimed to be more, including
|> the Son of God.
|> Isa asked the disciples, "Who do the multitudes say that I am?"
|> "And, they answered and said, 'John the Baptist, and others say Elijah;
|> but others, that one of the prophets of old has risen again.  And He said
|> to them, 'But who do you say that I am?'  Peter answered and said, 'The Christ
|> of God.'  But He warned them, and instructed them not to tell this to anyone."
|> So that the plan for Him to be crucified and resurrected could be accomplished.
|> (Luke 9:18-22)

The Christ of God means the Messiah of God. The anointed of God. And not God 
that came to earth to die for our sins.....

Messiah=Christ=Anointed.
The word, "Christ" is actually from the (pagan) Greek. "Messiah" is the Hebrew 
form. Bible scholars understand that the name of the Persian king Cyrus (2 Chr.
36:22) also means "anointed". 

See also Genesis 31:13, Lev 4:3; Lev 8:10; 1 Samuel 2:10; Isaiah 45:1; Ezekiel
28:14 for more anointed=christ things.

|>    |> What does this mean "it appeared so"?
|>    |> 
|> 
|>    :-).....
|>    It means: It didn't happen!!!!!!!
|> -------
|> But Isa said He would need to die!  He said, "The Son of Man must suffer many
|> things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and BE
|> KILLED, AND BE RAISED UP on the third day."  (Luke 9:22)  So, is Isa al-Masih
|> a LIAR? 

No, but maybe Luke is.... :-).....
Btw what is Luke or what is Mark who were 8 years old when Jesus (pbuh) was 
walking on this earth??

Secondly raised up on the third day??????? Was he raised up on the third day?
The time factor wasn't three days and three nights but *ONE* day (Saturday 
daytime only) and two nights (Friday night and Saturday night).
So good old reliable Luke seems to have got that wrong too.....

Read Luke 16:10 in a general sense and you will understand which one may be a
lier.. If he can't even get the timefactor straight then what can we expect of
him???

|> 
|>    Why not???
|>    If it was in the will of God He could make thousands of small christs with 
|>    miracolous births....
|>    It is actually nothing special with it.....
|> 
|>    Jesus (pbuh) was born without a father... So what???? God is the Greatest..
|>    He does whatever He wants.....
|> -------
|> "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was
|> God.  He was in the beginning with God.  All things came into being by Him,
|> and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
|> And, the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory
|> as of the Only Begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.  John bore
|> witness of Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who
|> comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.'  For of
|> His fulness we have all received, and grace upon grace.  For the Law was given 
|> through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.  No man
|> has seen God at any time; the Only Begotten God, who is in the bosom of the
|> Father, He has explained Him."  (John 1:1-3,14-18)  Jesus is God, as God
|> the Father is God.

These are words supposed to be have been written by John..... Actually they are 
*very* confusing...

If this verse truly is as you claim then Jesus (pbuh) is God according to this 
verse. Then how many Gods are there?
Two at least. 
First the Word and then God who together became God????? 
If something is *with* God then it is *not* a part of God and then suddenly it 
becomes God... How can it *be* God if it is *with* God?????? 

The verse doesn`t say *with the Father*. It says *with God*........

:-).. lets take it one more time because John 1:1 is very confusing...
If the Word was *with* God then it couldn't have been God at that stage.
If then the word was with God (not the father or the holy spirit but God) and
then became one with the "old" God, a *NEW* God must have been created.

But how can something which is uncreated be created?

You Christians claim that the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are 
*NOT* three, but *ONE*.
In other words, (1 Epistle of John 5:17)"There are three who bear record
in heaven: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. All these three are 
ONE." (this verse is already purged out!!! See for example the RSV. Also
read the Anatharian creed).
We know that something *CANNOT* be greater than itself being itself its 
relativeness. This is even true to God Almighty as His atttributes are 
*ABSOLUTE*. It means that if God is powerful, then He is *THE MOST*
powerful, and it is not that He *IS* more powerful than He *WAS*. This 
is because the latter conditions indicates that He *WAS* once not 
*ABSOLUTELY* powerful. Is is also impossible that He *IS* greater than 
He *IS*. This is thus impossible for God.
Now if all those three are one, then it follows that none of them can be
greater than the others; all of them must be *EQUALLY ABSOLUTELY POWER-
FUL* (taking 'being powerful' as an example), and all of them are 
*EQUALLY GREAT*.

However, their equality is refused by the following arguments:

1) Jesus says:"My Father is greater than I."
The saying indicates inequality between the Father and the Son. As 
mentioned above, if they *WERE* *ONE*, it cannot be that the Father 
being greater than the Son. They should be *EQUALLY* great instead. 
Thus, the Father and the Son are two different beings.

2) If they were really *ONE*, then there should not exist priority and 
posteriority among them.
However, the Father always holds the *FIRST* rank, and is prior to the 
Son. The Holy Ghost is not only posterior as the *THIRD* in the order of
counting, but even inferior to those from whom he proceeds. Would it not
be considered a sin of heresy if the names of three persons were *CON-
VERSELY* repeated? Will not the signing of the cross upon the cantenance
or over the elements of the Euchrist be considered impious by the Churches 
if the formula be reversed thus "In the name of the Holy Ghost, and of 
the Son, and of the Father"?? For if they were absolutely equal and co-
eval, the order of precedence need not be scruplously obserbed.

3) If they were truly one, it is necessary that all of them have the 
*SAME* attributes. It should *NOT* be that each person of the trinity 
has some *PARTICULAR* attributes which are *NOT PROPER* to the other two.
But we are told that:
* The Father begets and is not begotten.
* The Son is begotten and not a father.
* The Holy Ghost is the issue of the other two persons.
Furthermore,
* The Father is described as creator and destroyer.
* The Son as saviour or redeemer (se Galatians 3:13).
* The Holy Ghost as life-giver.
Consequently, none of the three *ALONE* is the Creator, the Redeemer and
the Life-giver.

|> -------
|> Big difference.  The Christians and Jews agree on who YHWH is. Who is
|> Allah, really?  Is he really The LORD?  See next comment of mine.

Do they????
Then how come you have a different concept of Him????

Well, you *Christians* *claim* you are worshipping YHWH while the concept
of YHWH in Judaism is totally different.... Actually their concept of Him
is as close as it can be to the one we have in Islam.... 

But you already knew that, didn't you????

|>      GOD ALMIGHTY, The YHWH of old, The LORD, The Only God has said Jesus is
|> His Son.  This is tantamount to equality with God, because:
|> "For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, 
|> because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own
|> Father, making Himself equal with God.  Jesus therefore answered and was
|> saying to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself,
|> unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does,
|> these things the Son also does in like manner.  For the Father loves the Son,
|> and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and greater works than
|> these will He show Him, that you may marvel.  For just as the Father raises
|> the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He
|> wishes.  For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment
|> to the Son, IN ORDER THAT ALL MAY HONOR THE SON, EVEN AS THEY HONOR THE FATHER.
|> HE WHO DOES NOT HONOR THE SON DOES NOT HONOR THE FATHER WHO SENT HIM."
|> (John 5:18-23)
|>      Jesus claimed equality with God.  You cannot say He was a prophet, when He
|> clearly claims to be MORE.  You must call him a liar or agree.  If you agree,
|> then you must agree that He is the Son of God and is God, therefore.  Either
|> way, He cannot be just a prophet.  If you disagree, then we must say He was
|> a liar and sinner and not a prophet, for He claimed to be more and claimed
|> to be God's Son.

Was it really such a big thing to claim to be the Son of God?
Well, according to gospelwriters the Jews thought so.
But how did Jesus (pbuh) reply?

(John 10:32)" Is it not written in your law: ye are Gods?"

A *very* interesting reply.
He is telling them: why are you blaming me for calling myself the Son of
God when others are called God.

There is a place in Genesis where its written, but also in the (Psalms
86:6) " Ye are Gods ...."

And in (2 Cor. 4:4) Satan is called God.
So if Satan is God and Jesus (pbuh) is a part of God then Jesus (pbuh)
is a part of Satan.
So is Satan God and is Jesus (pbuh) the Son of God?
No, definately not!!!
Its the genius of the Jewish language.

In the Hebrew language, a person given great power from God is also
called God or Lord (Aloheim) as shown in (Exodus 7:1) in the descrip-
tion of Moses (pbuh).

(Exodus 7:1)" And the Lord said unto Moses, see, I have made thee *a
god* to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet."

In (Acts 14:11) Paul and Barnabas were called gods by the people, as
was customary of that time to describe anyone with power from God.

So the conclusion is that calling oneself *son of God* or even *god*
means one thing in our languages but can mean a totally different 
thing in the semitic languages.....

Jesus (pbuh) were speaking to Jews so if you want to understand exactly
what Jesus (pbuh) meant you must also understand the genius of the 
jewish laguage... Things that mean one thing in our language can mean
something totally different in another.

Read also (Matt 5:9), (1 john 3:9,10), (1 John 5:1), (Romans 8:14), 
(Philippians 2:14,15), (Exodus 4:22), (Psalm 89:19-27), ( Jeremiah 31:9), 
( 2 Samuel 7:14), (Deutronomy 32:19, 14:1), (Isaiah 63:8), (Hosea 1:10), 
(Job 38:7), (Genesis 6:1-2) and (Genesis 6:4),(1 Chronicles 22:10) and
(Psalm 2:7) .

According  to Hastings' Dictionary of the Bible, regarding the title
son of God it is written:"Whether Jesus used it of Himself is doubtful."
(Revised edition, 1963. Charles Scribner"s Sons, NY,p. 143).

Actually it is found in the New Testament most frequently on the lips of 
others. And  this is mentioned in the Quran as merely following in the customs 
of the pagans, notably the greeks and Romans of the time, whose gods had sons. 

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
(9:30)"The Christians call Christ the Son of God. That is a saying from their 
mouth; in this they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say."
 
In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
(5:77)"Say:"O People of the Book! Exceed not in your religion the bounds (of
what is proper), trespassing beyond the truth, Nor follow the vain desires of
people who went wrong in times gone by,- who misled many, and strayed
(themselves) from the even way"."

|> -------
|> "And one of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He
|> had answered them well, asked Him, "'What commandment is the foremost of all?'
|> Jesus answered, 'The foremost is, 'Hear O Israel!  There is One LORD, The
|> LORD *Our* God; and you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart,
|> and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.'"
|> (Mark 12:28-29)
|> -------

"Shema" Yisrael Adonai Elohenu , Adonai Elohenu, Adonoi Ehod," Deut. 6:4

(SURA 112: Purity of Faith)
In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
1 Say: He is Allah, The One and Only;
2 Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
3 He begetteth not, Nor is He begotten;
4 And there is none like unto him."

True, the only God, the God of Jesus, Moses, Muahmmed and all His Messengers 
(pbuta) which is far, *very* far from the god of Paul and the Church, is as
you have emphasized, *OUR* God.....

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
(5:59)"Say :" O People of the Book! Do ye disapprove of us for no other 
reason than that we believe in Allah, and the revelation that hath come 
to us and that which came before (us), and (perhaps) that most of you are 
rebellious and disobedient?"


Sincerely Yours
    Gani Skepi
    d89-gsk@nada.kth.se


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(SAHIH MUSLIMIN)" ... I heard the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) saying: 
He who amongst you should see something abominable should modify it
with the help of his hand; and if he has not strength enough to do 
it, then he should do it with his tongue, and if he has not strength 
enough to do it, (even) then he should (abhort it) from his heart, 
and that is the least of faith."
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