From: niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent)
Subject: Re: Least Valuable Players (career), or Great Clubhouse Influences
Originator: news@ernie.Princeton.EDU
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1992 03:36:48 GMT

In article <1992Apr11.234752.671@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca> 91287041@ramsey.cs.laurentian.ca ( ) writes:
>In <204766@unix.cis.pitt.edu> dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu (David M Tate) writes:

>>An even worse example if Alfredo Griffin, who played 140 games at shortstop
>>in 1984 for a team that had Tony Fernandez.  Fernandez was only 21, but he

>Griffin played 6 years in TO, 3 in OAK and 4 in LA.  Toronto, a defending
>champion, just reacquired him.  These 3 organizations are 3 of the most
>successful in the game.  Are you implying that they don't know what they
>are doing? 

Yes.

On the other hand, all three of these organizations got rid of him.  This
is not something teams normally do if they think a guy was important to
their success (cf Tree-Stump Lansford, Mookie Wilson, or Dan Gladden,
all of whom hung/are hanging around for years after they didn't belong.)

For *THAT* matter, what are you talking about?  The Blue Jays were BAD
when they had Alfredo Griffin.  In fact, very bad.  They got better when
they replaced him with Tony Fernandez.  The As won 3 straight pennants
after they traded him.  The Dodgers won ONCE with Griffin, and he wasn't
even playing full time.  (I think Orel Hershiser had a *little* more to
do with THAT one.)

>            No, I think the problem might be found in your one-dimensional
>analysis of a player's worth.

One dimensional?  He can't hit.  He doesn't walk.  He has no power.  He
isn't great defensively. What DOES that leave?  Oh, wait, I know -->

>Alfredo Griffin is reported to be a really nice guy, a positive influence
		    ^^^^^^^^
So you don't even know it's true!  You just read it somewhere.  Dewey
was reported to be beating Truman, too.

>on the bench, in the clubhouse and on the field - if not at the plate.

Good, then make him a coach. He can still have that great positive 
influence on the team on the bench and in the clubhouse, and he won't
be killing the team at the plate.

Like Dan Gladden.  We heard from Twins fans the same sorts of things --
he's a great guy, plays hard, and helps the team in ways that don't show
up in the stats.  Until it was shown that the Twins did better when he wasn't 
in the lineup.

Hell, I can name a team of 25 "really nice guys" that would lose to the
1991 Indians every time they played.  Start with Rene Gonzales and work
from there.  On the other hand, give me a team full of disruptive players 
like Tartabull, Mitchell, Belle, Strawberry, and Henderson, and they'd wipe 
the floor with any team around.

I know there are players out there that are a lot of fun to watch, (there
are several of them on the Orioles, like Billy "Am I *really* related to 
Cal?" Ripken) but why you think this means they belong in the majors is 
beyond me.

>Making him the butt of your little statistical jokes shows a complete
>lack of respect for a man who commands a lot more respect from his peers
>than Tony Fernandez.  Ask the players if he made a "measurable" contribution.
 
Well, pardon me for asking, but how the f**k would YOU know which of
them commands more respect from their peers?  As a person, I'm sure
Alfredo is a really nice guy who deserves a lot of respect.  But I don't
*care* what he's like as a person.  I'm not asking him to babysit my kids.  
As a baseball player, I don't see why I'm obligated to give him respect he
hasn't earned.

>>          David M. Tate            |"The man who hath no music in himself

>roger l. maynard                              

-- 
David M. Nieporent              |ALEast 92: 1.Baltimore 2.Boston 3.Toronto
niepornt@phoenix.princeton.edu  |4. Detroit 5.Milwaukee 6.NY 8.Cleveland
"Baseball stathead, and card-carrying member of the ACLU.  And proud of it."
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball