Organization: Queen's University at Kingston
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 00:49:58 EST
From: andy <2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Kahane

In article <6NgguB1w165w@corner.wpb.fl.us>, murray@corner.wpb.fl.us (Murray
Kahl) says:
>
>From: warren@nysernet.ORG (Warren Burstein)
>Subject: Re: Autopsy - Kahane and Rosenbaum
>
>MK> In <1992Nov13.210236.23400@news.ysu.edu> ah287@yfn.ysu.edu (Murray Kahl)
>MK> es:
>
>>>Curious how Rav Kahane (z'tl) has become rather main stream while his
>>>opponents are adopting the tactics that he was accused of so
>>>vehemently.
>
>MK> I see no evidence for the assertion that the departed "has become rather
>MK> mainstream".
>
>Quite the contrary, as we have politicians the likes of Ghandi advocating
>expulsion, and keeping in mind that he has no halachic basis for his
>policies. I also remind you that the inability of Arabs to live peacefully
>with Jews is ever prevalent and recognized.
>
>>>I assume you feel the democratic process entitled Israel to ban Kach
>>>from running for the Knesset and yet allowed Arab parties to
>>>participate in democracy.
>
>WB> I have stated before that I would prefer that Israel enact a
>WB> constitution and a bill of rights and then allow even racist parties.
>WB> Under these circumstances I would have supported the right of the
>WB> departed to enjoy rights which he would deny to me.
>
>Israel's basic laws and the changes made to it a few months ago are
>equivalent to a constitution, as to your characteristics of racism, that
>is in the eye of the beholder and in this case it appears to be a bit
>jaundiced.

The more important criticism is the lack of a Bill of Rights

>
>WB> parties currently in the Knesset - an Israeli Arab party whose
>WB> platform was offering Jews a choice between being second-class
>WB> citizens and being expelled would not need to be banned as all of its
>WB> candidates would find themselves in jail.
>
>Exactly whom do you feel the Arab members of the Knesset represent if not
>the PLO? Unfortunately for us, their intentions are not that kind, as to

The PLO is not allowed to run in elections, nor are people linked with the PLO

>make Jews second class citizens.
>All one has to do is ask the family of Helena Rapp, the 15 year old school
>girl who was just sliced up at a bus stop in Bat Yam.
>
>MK> It is also incorrect to act as if the departed's tactics consisted
>MK> merely of parlimentary efforts.  His opponents confined themselves to
>MK> legal means, something that the departed did not.
>
>While your statement is all inclusive and clearly not true, Kahane was a
>saintly figure, the victim, the scapegoat, the paradoxically gentle man of

"gentle man of violence" an oxymoron if I ever heard one

>violence with a weapon in one hand and a mea culpa in the other. I revere him
>as such, as a figure of courage, somebody whose moral substance makes the
>rest of us feel like moral shadows; it seems like an impertinence when people

I don't feel like his moral shadow

>now begin to do what he did 20 years ago.
>If you feel his opponents confined themselves to legal means, you have given
>an entirely new definition to the phrase.
>
>MK>nothing more than respect from his Muslim opponents and displayed a an
>MK>unusually strong ahavat Yisrael.
>
>WB> I heard the departed speak on a number of occasions and all I heard
>WB> was hate: hate for Muslims, hate for Jews who opposed him (at his
>WB> funeral, the chant was "Death to the Arabs!  Death to the leftists!").
>WB> He did not ask for "respect from his Muslim opponents", he demanded
>WB> that they either subjugate themselves to him or leave.
>
>The fact that your hyperbole is couched in terms of Shalom Achshav makes it
>all the more apposite. Should a man espouse a moral and religious philosophy
>he is not prepared to live for, or in extremis die for? What did Horace mean
>when he wrote the lines dulce et decorum est pro patria mori? It is sweet and
>right to die for your fatherland and so Kahane did. What do his followers ask
>even more savagely, when they identify this safe and consoling rhetoric at a
>safe distance from the areas Kahane's battles took place.
>His words were meant to outrage rather than to console. They were spoken out
>of the shock of the deception incurred by conventional expression -- in
>particular, the expression that dying for your religion and country is
>beautiful.
>I too have heard him many times and NEVER did I hear him utter the words you
>post above. It is pointless to hear your remembrances as only you can verify
>them; however, we do have the ability to refer back to his books and they do
>NOT bear out your statements.
>I challenge you to substantiate that Kahane demanded that his foes subjugate
>themselves to him or leave. In contrast to your words, I heard him say many
>times that he does not want their love, he wants their respect.
>