From: hhrant@ocf.berkeley.edu (Helgge Minassian)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: Apparently we have another 'Revisionist' to expose
Date: 22 Nov 1992 23:46:21 GMT
Organization: U. C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: monsoon.berkeley.edu

>From: cza@troy.cc.bellcore.com

Translation of a fellow netter's post, for those who don't
understand "Double-Speak":

>Never mind what Serdar ignores.  Do you agree that same

Never Mind that he ignores the facts

>geneocide claims by Armenians also applicable to Ottoman Muslims
>(Turks/Kurds)?  If "yes" skip the rest. 
>If your answer is "no." Why?  

Trick question, whether the answer is "yes" or "no" I'm begging you
to keep reading.

>This a fact that number by number the loss and suffering of 
>Ottoman Muslims far a head of Armenians by the end 
>of WWI.  However, I haven't seen any one in the West got up and said 

This is a fact that I can't believe that my own government
actually massacred 1.5 Million Armenians, which constituted
such a high percentage of the Armenian population that
it left Turkey with a virtually wiped-out Armenian population.

>"wait a minute" when Armenians start contending
>with that they would be a sole benefactor of such recognition
>without mentioning of other huge civilian sufferings
>inflicted on Ottoman Muslims.   They were not innocient by

"wait a minute" when Armenians start contending with that,
they remember that most Armenian adults today never had
2 grandfathers and 2 grandmothers because they perished
during the Armenian Genocide perpretrated by the Turkish
Empire. 

>standers in WWI.  Armenians wanted to win their own
>independents on the expense of TUrks/Kurds in that region
>although they were not a majority.  They sided with Invading Russians 

Armenians wanted to have what any human being deserves: freedom
and dignity.  As required by the 12th of the 14 points of Wilson,
Turkey had to allow Armenians autonomy in Eastern Turkey.

>to fullfil their goal after seeing how Serbs, Bulgars, and Greeks
>got their own sovernity with the help of Austria-Hungrian Empire
>and British.  Nothing wrong with that. If there were no Bolshevik 
>revolution in Russia, probably they would get want they wanted and we

I make no sense here, sorry I don't speak English very well.

>would not have this geneocide claims today, wouldn't we?  After all.
>I haven't heard (yet) Greek, Bulgarian, Serbain Geneocide claims
>against Ottomans in their late 19th Century vendures, even though they 
>lost many people along their struggle to get what they wanted.  Why you
>want to Serdar to recognize is the unfortunate outcome of Armanian 
>rebelous act and Ottoman Goverment reaction to it.  But the event

Greeks, Bulgarian, Serbian claims of attrocities against them
by my beloved Turkish Government are abundant...but why the hell do
we have to listen to those Armenians?  There are so few of them.

>was the civil and communal war whereever angle you look at it.
>I can see why you were also apprehensive to equate this
>to the Jewish Holocaust experience in WWII.   Because those set of
>questions were put forward by Serdar makes very difficult for one
>to equate this Nazi conspiracy onto innocent citizens of
>Germany who did not have a single bullet against any
>German citizen to perpetrate such reaction.  I hope, you know

It was a one way Genocide wherever angle you look at it: Armenian's
in Eastern Turkey constituted less than 2.5 Million people.  Anyway,
if Jean-Marie Le Pen contends that many Germans perished during WWII,
does it imply that the Holocaust never happened?

>what questions I am talking about.  Those are:

I hope you know what trick questions I am talking about.
Those are:

>  1. Did Jews establish Jewish armies behind German lines to backstab 
>     Germans and to establish a Jewish State on German soil? 

Did the Young Turks backstab (literally) the Armenian leaders
who had endorsed them?

>  2. Did Jews organize and carry out a general slaughter of the local
>     Christian population in Hamburg, Darmstad, Koln? 

Did the Young Turks carry out a general slaughter of the local
Armenian population of Van, Musa Dagh, Zeitun, and countless others,
and drive the rest in the Syrian desert?

>  3. Did Jews raise an army of one hundred and fifty thousand men to 
>     fight a civil war? 

Did the Young Turks have a far superior weaponry, and were Armenians
forbidden from entering the Turkish Army, thus lacking any
military experience?

>  ......etc.  You can ask him if you haven't seen those.

  ......etc.  You can ask my conscience if you haven't see me
  ask those.

>It is those arguments make the Holocaust a unique crime that no one
>have a slightest clue why it has happenned.

It is those argument [that] make the Armenian Genocide a unique
crime that I can't believe actually happened.

>By no means that I am here to make any justification of
>any innocent Armanian civilian killing at the hand of Ottoman
>Army or an Ottoman civilian hand.  I wish it has never

By no means [that I am] here to make any justification of any innocent
Arm[e]nian civilian killing at the hands of my beloved Turkish
Army, because Armenian civilians didn't exist then.  The 1.5
Million Armenians we massacred were all men, ages between 25 and 35.
As a matter of fact 100% of the Armenians in Eastern Turkey were all
men.

>happenned as the many Turks died or suffered by the Aremanian rebels.
>Nobody can bring them back.  Rather than trying to sort who were 
>guilty and who was innocent, I am for the prevention of happening 

Please forget about those Armenians, they are few, why do you feel
the need to listen to them?  Come on guys, let's forget and forget,
it doesn't affect you personnally that 1.5 Million Armenians were
massacred by my beloved Turkish Governemnt.

>again because of a few nationalist blood thirsty creature to resurrect 
>those ill feelings among the nations and ethnic groups.  Otherwise, it 
>means that we had never learned from all the deads purpatrated by 
>civil wars,  WWI, and WWII. However, if one wants to pick and choose 
>who was more opt for " genecoide" term among Turks and Armenians based 
>on what happenned in 1915 after 75 years later,  I am not so sure the 
>humanity will prevent the next genocide.  The Bosnia was
>a prime example to what I mean.   How can I neglect to
>mention what is brewing in Caucassia, Balkans, and the Northern Iraq
>in that vein?

This is my "Grand Finale", I'm hoping it makes sense whatsoever.
As I have said, it is too hard for me as a Turk to believe that
my beloved Turkish Government massacred 1.5 Million civilians,
including priests, women, children.  I am not self-confident
enough to face up to that fact, that is why I spell "Genocide"
like: "Genecoide", because I have a psychological block in
my head about those things.

>C. AKgun

Too-Ashamed-To-reveal-my-first-name. AKgun
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish