From: cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (Chris Luchini)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 10mm information needed
Date: 28 Aug 92 01:21:17 GMT
Organization: High Energy Physics, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign

In article <13400032@iftccu.boeing.com>, bressler@iftccu.ca.boeing.com (Rick Bressler) writes:
#
#/ iftccu:rec.guns / cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (Chris Luchini) /  2:20 pm  Aug 25, 1992 /
##inherently less reliable in an auto.
#
##	Yes, the lack of body taper may have a larger effect on reliability,
##	but the 45acp similarly has very little body taper.
#
#I've seen several responses along these lines to my post on .40 vs 10mm.
#I DID try to point out that this was only my opinion.  I should have 
#had my head examined for even daring to have an opinion on the such 
#matters as cartridge selection and religious preference! :-)

	Hey, I wasn't flaiming you, I was just pointing out that the
	10mm is not that different than the 45/9/40 WRT body taper
	and OAL length.

#His point was that shorter cartridges NEED less taper, (and yes, the .45
#ACP has about .010 taper) and make for smaller guns, (shorter actions.)
#Actually, taper isn't the whole story either.  The way it was explained
#to me was getting a reliable feed from the magazine is easier with a
#shorter cartridge.  Maybe that is why most machine guns are belt fed :-)

	I think (and having talked to smiths, they also think) that 
	feeding reliability has more to do with how much experience
	there is with the cartridge (ie designing magazines is an art
	not a science) and the angle of the body taper.

#Farnum's opinion, and mine after listening to several sources is pretty
#much what I have stated before.  The fact that the 10 is rapidly fading
#in popularity kind of supports them.

	I think the reason that the 10mm is fading are
	1) The FBI adopted it, and then went to a 10lite, which made
	alot of people say 'why' go lite? Also the problem of trying
	to make a gun work with both 180 grain @ 950fps, and 200grain	
	@1150fps (the FBI specified that the guns _must_ be able to handle
	the first Norma loads which were _hot_) defeated most gun designers.
	(ie the Glocks and the S&W's were the only ones that I know of 
	that need no tweeking to work with both ends 
	of the loading spectrum)
	2) The FBI S&W's had a lot of problems, so the cartridge 
	was smeared because of the gun's problems.
	3) The limited selection of guns in 10mm discouraged people.
	4) The 'average' person can more easily hold a double column
	40 than a double column 10. Also, the 40 can be made on almost
	any gun that was previously made in 9mm, while the 10mm must be
	built on a 45acp sized platform. Since the buzzword is 'firepower'
	=capacity and some fraction of the population can't comfortably hold
	a double column 10, the 40 wins.
	4.5) The untrained find the increased recoil, etc of the 10mm to
	be more difficult to handle than that of the 40sw.
	5) The rise in popularity of the Fackler faction proclaiming that
	penetration was more important than expansion made the 10mm overkill
	If all you want is ~900-1000fps with about 180-200 grain bullet,
	the 40 will do just fine. If the 'expansion, velocity ,
	less than 12" of penetration' crowd has been in power, the 10mm
	would win hands down 40sw: 155gr@1150fps vs 10mm: 155gr@1400+fps
	6) I don't think that 'feeding reliability' has anything to do 
	with the rise of the 40 at the expence of the 10.
	7) I think the 10mm fading is over stated, I'd like to see stats
	for 10mm vs 40sw sales (excluding police departments). I suspect
	that the 10mm is due for a revival in a few years as gun writers
	search for something to start a xxx vs xxx flame war about.
#
#I have no doubt that the 10 will continue to have a loyal following for
#some time.  I happen to like .44spl, but that does not change the fact
#that advancing technology has pretty much obsoleted it for defense
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

	It's not technology, it's a fad. 90% of all the trends in
	handgunning have to do with fadism, and selling slick magazines,
	not technology. The 44sp is and always has been a better cartridge
	than the 38sp, but the lack of 5-shot snubbies to choose from 
	condemed it to an also-ran.

#purposes.  I have no desire to malign anybody choosing to use the 10mm
#cartridge.  I was only trying to point out it's short comings as a
#defense cartridge, which I believe had something to do with what the
#original poster wanted information on.
#

#I stand by my opinion that a newcomer choosing between the .40 and 10mm
#would be better served by choosing the .40S&W.

	For a newcomer, yes. There are more guns to choose from, there is
	more ammo to choose from, and the ammo is eventually going to be
	cheaper than 10mm ammo. For a carry gun, the 40 may be better than
	the 10mm (if you plan to miss alot) even for the non-beginner because
	of the difference in grip size of the guns. For most people
	(including myself) you are far better off buying a cheap-to-shoot
	gun and practicing alot, than spending money on a hi-tech caliber
	and depending on technology to save you in a crunch. 

	My wild-ass-guess is that come judgment day when we find out the
	truth of which caliber is the best stopper, the difference
	between the best of the 9mm-357mag-40sw-10mm-41ae-44sp-45acp-50ae will
	be less than 10%. Given the ~1:5 difference in ability I've seen on
	the range between the new/practice-4times-a-year shooters and
	those who take shooting seriously, 10% is down in the noise. 

	For the non-beginner, who can comfortably grip a 10mm, the 10mm is
	better. I no longer own a 10mm, and my next handgun will probably
	be a 40sw, but that is because I can't afford the $2000 that will
	be needed to get my 10mm built to my specifications. If the same
	gun designes were made in 10mm that are made in 40sw, my 'dream'.
	10mm would cost about $600. 
*1110 W. Green/Urbana IL 61801/217-333-0505/cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu 
* for sale: Springfield Armory Factory Comp, 38 Super, +3 mags. All new
* in box (never fired at all).  $690 or best offer over $600 as of Sep 30.