Via: uk.ac.strathclyde.vaxb; Sat, 23 Jan 1993 21:39:40 +0000
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.hellas
Date:         Sat, 23 Jan 1993 21:37:00 GMT
Reply-To:     Haralambos Mantzaridis <CLFV14@VAXB.STRATHCLYDE.AC.UK>
From:         Haralambos Mantzaridis <CLFV14@VAXB.STRATHCLYDE.AC.UK>
Subject:      Makedoniko (fwd)
Comments: To: HELLAS <HELLAS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU>

To parakatw to kanw forward sth lista opws moy zhth0hke.

Xarhs


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Haralambe, gia teleytaia fora mou kaneis th xarh na proovuhseis to akoloyuo
mhnyma sthn Hellas?

Syggnvmh gia thn talaipvria poy se bazv,
alexandros

---------
>Article 27776 of bit.listserv.hellas:
>From: IVRISSIMTZIS@VAX1.COMPUTER-CENTRE.BIRMINGHAM.AC.UK
>
 [Exv envsei se ena dyo grammata apanthseis se antistoixa grammata toy
 Lewnida]
>
>Kat' arxn ti orizoyme ws Makedovia gewgrafika. Dexomai tov orismo toy
>Bakalopoyloy, poy bebaia dev fnmizetai gia tis "avte0vikes" toy apopseis: "H
[ text deleted]
>idia ey0eia akoloy0oyse tnv oroseira toy Sar, tnv oreivn xwra sta boreia kai
>avatolika twv Skopiwv ka0ws kai to oros Rila". Se sxesn me tn dioikntikn
>diairesn tns O0wmavikns aytokratorias n Makedovia kalypte ligo poly ta bilaetia
>tns 0essalovikns, toy Movastnrioy KAI MEROS TOY BILAETIOY TOY KOSSOBO, dnl. tnv

Den jerv ti ennoeis me orismo bakalopoylou. Pantvs sthn akoloyuh ekdosh

Vakalopoulos, Apostolos E. (Apostolos Euangelou).  Kairia themata tes historias
mas.  Thessalonike: Ekdoseis Vanias, 1988.
LOCATION: Widener:  WID-LC DF553.V34 1988

selida 268, o Vakalopoylos perigrafontas ti orismenoi jenoi perihghtes
uevroysan Makedonia (o filikos pros ta Skopia orismos) symplhrvnei oti
oi orismoi aytoi DEN PERILAMBANOYN TIS PERIOXES TITOVOU KAI SKOPIVN.

Esy katalhgeis sto akribvs antiueto symperasma. Kapoios apo toys dyo sas
antifaskei edv pera.

>perioxn twv Skopiwv. Ara oi ari0moi poy divei o Aleksavdros prepei va
>ava0ewrn0oyv, oxi snmavtika wstoso.
>
>Alloy eivai to problnma kai alloy briskovtai oi alxnmeies twv Ellnvwv
>swbivistwv. As paroyme tnv apografn toy 1905 toy Hilmi Passa, opws dnmosieytnke
>sto "L'Europe et l'empire ottoman" to 1913:
 ...
>H apografn dev avaferetai se e0vikotntes alla se 0rnskeytikes pepoi0nseis!
>
 Mprabo. Kaneis den to amfisbhtei ayto!
>Ta parapavw stoixeia, av diastayrw0oyv me tn statistikn toy C. Noe sto
        Leonida Pote den edvsa baros stis statistikes aytes kau' eaytes.
        Tis paroysiasa aplvs gia na deijv ti isxyrizontan oi diafores
        pleyres. Kai opvs eipa se prohgoymeno gramma, aytes ekfrazoun
        me monh ejairesh ayth toy Hilmi pasa (poy par ola ayta htan
        elliphs) tis prosvpikes pepoiuhseis tvn syggrafevn toys.
        O Logos KANEIS ma KANEIS den mporoyse na krathsei statistika.
        Oyte kanenas apo toys syggrafeis perase apo kaue xvrio h synoikismo
        tvn diaforvn vilaetivn ths Ouvmanikhs aytokratorias. Px orismenoi
        Ellhnes metroysan ariumo Ellhnvn mauhtvn sta sxoleia kai apo kei ebgazan
        symperasmata gia ton plhuysmo. An o ariumos mauhtvn htan akribhs
        h statistikh htan akribhs, alloivs trexa gyreye.

        Se ayto poy uelv na katalhjv einai oti kapoios mporei na
        elegjei ta noumera ayta MONO katopin eorths. Dedomenvn tvn
        Ellhnikvn statistikvn/apografvn gia th Makedonia meta to 1920, kai
        dedomenou oti htan gnvstos o ariumos Ellhnvn poy hrue apo M. asia alla
        kai apo Boulgaria/Yugoslavia kai poso aujanotan o plhuysmos kat'
        etos mporei na  ypologisei peripoy poios htan o Ellhnikos
        plhuysmos sth Makedonia epi Hilmi pasa. An uymasai ayto ekana
        sto telos toy prohgoymenou grammatos. Tote katelhja sto
        symperasma oti o Ellhnikos plhuysmos ths Makedonias prepei
        natan peri tis 650,000-700,000 (kai dedomenoy oti oi Ellhnes
        sto vilaeti toy Kossyfopediou htan elaxistoi opvs svsta anafereis).

        To noumero ayto einai panv katv idio me ayto poy edinan oi pio polles
        Ellhnikes statistikes kai ayth toy Hilmi gia  toys Patriarxikous.
        Tote kai mono tote epeisa ton eayto mou oti to label "Patriarxikoi"
        ontvs  antistoixouse stoys Ellhnes, kai den kaname kai emeis tis idies
        "ladies" me toys ypoloipoys. Mono ek tvn ystervn mporesa na elegjv
        ta diafora noumera tvn diaforvn "statistikvn".

        Ara ejakoloyuv na pisteyv oti oi Ellhnikes statistikes den htan
        apotelesma (toylaxiston oi pio polles) mageirematos Ellhnvn
        svbinistvn opvs isxyrizesai. Ektos an ues na moy peis oti
        apo tote mexri shmera oi Ellhnikes statistikes (syn mia statistikh
        ths Koinvnias tvn Eunvn) metrane kaue Ellhna ths Makedonias diplo.
>
>prokyptoyv oi eksypvades twv logiwv istorikwv mas (Martns, ktl.). Oloys toys
        Ta metepeita stoixeia deixnoun oti oi Ellhnikes statistikes htan
        panv katv OK. Mh jexns kai thn Italikh (Virgili) kai Germanikh ektimhsh
        poy epishs symfvnouse me tis Ellhnikes (opvs kai na metrhsan o,ti
        metrhsan).
>Patriarxikoys toys syvypologizoyv stoys Ellnves evw polloi apo aytous ntav
>Slaboi (Serboi kai Boylgaroi) kai Blaxoi! As snmeiw0ei oti polloi slabofwvoi
        Oi statistikes poy eida egv (se ena biblio toy Zagklh D.) jexvrize
        ellhnes apo Vlahous, serbous, toyrkous klp apo ta noumera toy
        hilmi. Kai sto katv katv oi Blaxoi ths Elladas uevroyn toys
        eaytoys toys Ellhnes (Averof, Tositsas, Vlahos klp. Xarh se
        merikous apo aytoys xtisthke to Euniko Metsobio Polytexneio).
>(boulgarofwvoi kata tov Aleksavdro) ntav ektos apo patriarxikoi, ka0olikoi n'
        Polloi Boylgarofvnoi me Ellhnikh syneidhsh metriountan apo Hilmi
        san Boulgaroi logv glvssas. Alla ayta einai leptomereies giati
        mporei kaneis na milaei gi ayta enan aivna (ma ti lev hdh symplhrvnetai
        aivnas). To basiko einai metepeita geogonota epibebaivnoun
        toys isxyrismous mas kai tis "statistikes" mas (an ueleis na tis
        onomaseis etsi).
>kai -kyriws- moysoylmavoi. Akoma kai toy Halkiopoyloy ta stoixeia va dextoume
>oi ari0moi poy edwsa gia to 1912 faivovtai logikes ektimnseis. (Ek paradromns
        Ma ti einai aytoi ariumoi? Ti metrhsan? Anurvpous dyskolo.
        Poios toys metrhse? Oi toyrkoi den janakanan alloi apografh.
        Kaneis allos den eixe ta mesa na metrhsei plhuysmo alla oute kai thn
        ejousia.
>egrapsa apografn, evw evvooysa statistikn.)
>
>Apo ta voymera loipov dev bgaivei akrn gia tis e0vikotntes. Oi perissoteres
        Akribvs!
>Machtbereich..." ypologizoyv toys Slaboys (kyriws Boylgaroys) stn Makedovia
>aveksartnta 0rnskeymatos se pavw apo 1,000,000! H kalytern sxetikn ereyva kai
        Soy dvsa kai gv tria tetoia noumera. Ekeinh thn epoxh o kauenas egrafe
        ta dika toy.
>tns e0vikns taytotntas-syveidnsns ka0e omadas stn Makedovia priv apo to A'
>Pagkosmio Polemo.
        Akribvs. Mono meta to jemprdema (kata megalo baumo kai oxi
        oloklvrtiko) poy akoloyuhse to A' pagkosmio polemo kai
        sthn periptvsh ths Elladas to 1923, mporei kaneis na janakoitajei
        aytes tis "statistikes" kritika kai na dei poso svstes h lauos
        einai.

        Mono tote mporei kaneis na bgalei akrh ti eunothte zousan sth
        makedonia. TO SIGOYRO pantvs einai oti den zousan "Makedones"
        toy typoy poy isxyrizontai oi Skopianoi. Nai zousan Boulgaroi,
        Ellhnes, Serboi, Toyrkoi klp pantvs sigoyra oxi "Skopianoi".
>
>Lewvidas
>Birmingham
>
>
alexandros

PS Lewnida, mia kai to endiaferon tvn allvn einai meivmeno, an ues synexizoume
th syzhthsh se prosvpiko epipedo (mia kai apo kapoio shmeio ua epanalambanoume
ta idia epixeirhmata). Arketa exv talaipvrhsei ton Haralambo ton opoio kai
eyxaristv gia th provuhsh tvn diaforvn mhnymatvn sth Hellas.

---------
Akoloyuei to deytero gramma.

>Article 27797 of bit.listserv.hellas:
>Subject: Re: To Makedoviko zntnma
>From: IVRISSIMTZIS@VAX1.COMPUTER-CENTRE.BIRMINGHAM.AC.UK
>Reply-To: IVRISSIMTZIS@VAX1.COMPUTER-CENTRE.BIRMINGHAM.AC.UK
>
>>Deixnoun omws ena polu spoudaio pragma:
>>      KAMMIA TOUS DEN ANAFEREI TOUS "MAKEDONES" SAN ANEXARTHTO E0NIKO GROUP!
>
>
>Gia to IMRO n syzntnsn ksekivnse se apavtnsn tns avaforas toy Martn kai
>kseperase toys skopoys aytns tns syzntnsns. Eyxaristw tov Aleksavdro gia tis
>dieyrivnseis, sxetika me to Vlahov. Dev alloiwvei omws tnv oysia tns sxetikns
>frasns. To IMRO, parolo poy eksefraze kyria tis epavastatikes dia0eseis twv
>Slabikwv pln0ysmwv tns Makedovias, ntav arxika aytovomo apo tnv e0vikistikn
>boylgarikn "Supreme Macedonian Committee" (SMC). Ayto faivetai, afevos apo tn
  Htan boulgariko kinhma alla sthn arxh paizontas to tropari "Makedonia
  gia toys Makedones" kai ontas uevrhtika anoixto se oloys (an kai
  kaneis allos me ejairesh ligous Boulgarofvnous Ellhnes den to akoloyuhse)
  emoiaze san anejarthto "ek tvn endon" kinhma. Ayto huelan na deijoun
  kai oi idrytes toys pros thn Eyrvph (kai epeisan arketoys dhmosiografoys
  px Brailsford).
>diaknryksn toy katastatikoy toy gia "plnrn politikn aytovomia tns Makedovias
        Emeine 'anejarthto' apo Boulgarikh enisxysh ena mono xrono (1894).
        To 1897 elegxotan apo to Supreme Committee (epi Sarafov) oloklhrvtika.
        Oi sykroyseis me to committee htan arxhgikoy epipedou gia thn
        ikanopoihsh tvn filodijivn tvn arxhgvn toy. Ayto telika
        htan kai h aitia tvn DOLOFONIVN tvn arxhgvn tvn diaforvn fatrivn
        toy 1921-1924. Kati san allhlosfages delfinvn ND kai PASOK
        mono poy ekeinoi pyrobolousan ki olas...
        H monh diafora einai oti to IMRO htan pio ejypno apo toys
        Boylgarous eunikistes ths Boulgarias kai ligoteroys ejypno
        apo toys Ejarxistes.

        To IMRO huele anejarthth Makedonia prvta (vste na thn anagnvrisoun
        oi Dytikoi) alla uatan Boulgarikh ston prosanatolismo kai sth
        synexeia ua envnontan me Boulgaria [Ayto fainetai kai oti to
        sto M toy IMRO dinotan kai o xarakthrismo Macedonian-Andrianopolitan,
        i.e. huelan kai th Urakh, to vilaet ths Adiranoypolevs). Fysika
        merikoi tote eipan apo mesa toys "kalytera No 1 se "makedonia"
        para No 2 se "boulgaria+makedonia"'. To IMRO huele na to
        petyxei ayto (anejartopoihsh ths Makedonias) me  EPANASTATIKES
        meuodoys (poy perilambanan kai xrhsh bias).

        Oi Vrhovistes (Supreme Committee) huelan ap eyueia envsh
        me Boulgaria xvris to endiameso stadio ths anejartopoihshs
        kata th synuhkh toy Ag. Stefanou (fysika oi pio polloi
        Boulgaroi gnvrizan oti kati tetoio htan dyskolo logv ths
        antidrash tvn Eyrvpiaivn, alla oi Vrhovistes epemenan).

        H Boulgarikh Ejarxia symfvnouse me to IMRO gia anejartopoihsh
        alla huele na ginei oxi me epanastatikes meuodoys klp alla
        me idrysh sxoleivn gia Boulgarikous+Boulgarofvnous plhuysmous,
        xrhmatikes paroxes klp.

        Einai megalh mas TYXH oti to IMRO kai oi Vrhovistes telika epikrathsan.

>afeteroy apo ta perifnma logia toy Delchev sto Nikolaev tns SMC: "We do not
>need others deciding if we live or die or when...And now this, we do not seek
        Alla otan plhrvnei h Boylgaria den exeis
        epiloges. Apla "kabalhsan" to kalami o Delchev klp.
        Kai yparxei periptvsh (an kai kat' arxhn ta uevrv alhuina mia kai
        arxhgikes diafores SC - egv to jerv san SC para SMC - kai IMRO
        htan gnvstes) ta logia ayta na mphkan sto stoma toy Delchev apo
        Vlahov kai alloys revisionistes tvn SKopivn.

>ypostnriksn priv kai kata tnv eksegersn toy Ilinden faivetai apo tis martyries
         Sto Ilinden den eixe kauoloy yposthrijh (O Vlahov kai
         oi Skopianoi revisionistes isxyrizontai to antiueto).  Ektos
         apo thn elleich yposthrijhs o logos htan oti ta
         melh toy to rijan stis "sosialistikes" filologies thn epoxh poy
         o aplos kosmakhs den hjere ti nohma eixan ola ayta.
         An antiueta tonizan pio poly tvn agvna kata tvn Toyrkvn isvs
         ta katafernan kalytera.
>toy Brailsford [Macedonia] kai ta vtokoymevta toy Perry.
        Aman me ton Brailsford. O anurvpos huele na paroysiasei th
        Makedonia Boulgarikh kai ta katafere. Edv o Gallos projenos
        sth uessalonikh eipe oti meta th synanthsh toy me ton Brailsford
        kai para ta osa toy pe o teleytaios egrapse o,ti huele.
>
>Kalo sabbatokyriako,
>Lewvidas
>
Epishs,
alexndros
>
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