HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Clean And Unclean Un / Maccoby Book
Date: 4 Sep 1992 00:04:31 -0500
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

Bill Carlson writes:

>     That is where the Rambam was in error.  For the standard Orthodox
>     Rabbinic teaching is that there are two appearances of Messiah[s].

See R'Saadia Gaon on the subject of the moshiach ben-Yosef, whose
appearance need not even take place.  If the generation merits it, we
go straight to the age of arrival of moshiach ben-Dovid.  Some hold
that the accumulated sufferings over the ages qualifies as the
difficulties surrounding the age of moshiach ben-Yosef.

>     Most of your Orthodox would not expect Messiah ben-Yosef to do the
>     things that Messiah Ben-David will do.

Correct.

>     ... - So..., why should you
>     expect Y'shua, {who suffered as Messiah}, do to the things that
>     Messiah Ben-David will do?! <-(when He returns :-)

Because the Christian Scriptures try to portray Jesus as a descendent
of David (i.e. Judah), not the patriarch Joseph.  That disqualifies
him as a potential moshiach ben-Yosef, just as his failures disqualify
him as moshiach ben-Dovid, relative to Judaism.


>  If you ponder,
>     honestly with yourself, this logic just for a moment, - before you
>     think up another excuse/rational, I think you will see that what I
>     just said is correct.

What you said has truly staggering implications.  If one suggests that
Jesus was moshaich ben-Yosef (descended from Ephraim), then one
rejects his own Gospels which purport to trace his patrilineal lineage
to Judah.

R
From: rich.bellacera@amail.amdahl.com
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Personal Query: Jewish Heritage
Date: 30 Aug 92 00:19:13 GMT
Return-Path: <amail.amdahl.com!rich.bellacera@juts.ccc.amdahl.com>

Hi-

I have a question that I hope someone (anyone) will take seriously.  I would
surmise that this group is the appropriate place to ask it, especially in the
light of my niavety of Messianic Jews.

I am curious about my own Jewish heritage.

Let me start first with a brief explaination of what I do know about it and
then, if someone is so inclined, could you explain to me whether or not it is
appropriate for me to claim a Jewish heritage.

My father is Sicilian, raised as a Catholic.  He met and married my mother is
Brooklyn, NY.  She is half Spanish (from her father) and half "Jewish" (from
her mother).  My mother's mother traces her acestors from Russia, Poland and
Germany: all of which claim Jewish descent.  I am sort of in the process of
uncovering these roots.  Mind you, I have my "identity" and it is that of a
born-again believer in Jesus (Yeshua).  While my mother dedicated herself to
atheism, her mother was a practicing Jew.  I don't know about her father's
devotion, I believe he was a Catholic.  Her parents, as well as my parents
were raised during a time when Jewish-Catholic marriages were considered
taboo. In fact my Grandparents on my father's side disapproved of their union,
much to my mother's dismay, for the very reason that she was "Jewish" by
heritage. (reminds me of that old T.V. sitcom "Brigette Loves Berney").

I was raised Catholic, but in my 19th year I became a non-denominational
Christian through spiritual rebirth.

I now wonder whether my "Jewish" heritage is so diluted that it is now
considered "void" or not?  Some may think this query is moot since I am a
Christian, but I have a desire to know for myself the significance of my
heritage from my mother.

Thank you for your comments.

-Rich

Yeshua Messiah (is this the MJ equivalent to Jesus Christ?)

Oh, one other question, concerning MJs.  Is there an accepted version of the
Bible that you read?  Does it include "other" books not found in, say, the
KJV?  I've seen references to the Didache & Barnabas (both of which I've read,
along with the Shepherd of Hermas, and others).

:)
From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Clean And Unclean Un / Maccoby Book
Date: 30 Aug 92 05:06:13 GMT
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

Bruce Tiffany wrote:

>>> Not among *Rabbinic* Jews, whose religion is characterized by the
>>> rejection of Yeshua as Messiah.

I wrote:
>> I keep hearing this accusation, but I never get any evidence.  Nu?

In article <LJMORLY.92Aug29192809@polaris.utu.fi> you write:

> They say Judaism (Rabbinic) is based on Tanach, but yet it ignores the 
> parts which talk about the Messiah being the Son of God and his death 
> as an atonement for sins. Isn't that exactly a religion based on the 
> rejection of Yeshua ?


The accusation on the table is that Judaism is characterized by or
based upon rejection of Jesus as messiah.

The reality is that rejection of Jesus as messiah follows from the
tenets of Judaism, not the other way around.  I.e., rejection
of Jesus is an effect of Judaism, not a cause.

I'm still waiting for either proof or a retraction of your and
Bruce's accusation.


> Robert, you've seen all this many times already; is there still something
> you think that makes Yeshua a false messiah ?

A better term would be "failed messiah."  Lots of things disqualify
Jesus.  Quoting the Ramban at the 1263 disputation, ".. And does
not the prophet also say that at the time of messiah 'they shall not
teach their friends war, etc.?' (Jer. 31:33) and is it not written
(Is. 11:9) that then 'the world shall be full of knowledge of the
L-rd as the waters cover the sea?'  And from the days of Jesus till
now, the entire world is full of robbery and pillaging..."  Similarly,
billions of people today are atheists and pagans.

Need I say more?

Rob
From: btiffany@pbs.org
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: (Old) Question for Rob Levene
Date: 1 Sep 92 12:34:09 GMT
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA

Robert A. Levene writes:

> Subject: Re: (Old) Question for Rob Levene
> Organization: Johns Hopkins University
> 
> Bruce Tiffany writes:
> 
> ...
>> Not among *Rabbinic* Jews, whose religion is characterized by the rejection
>> of Yeshua as Messiah.
> 
> I keep hearing this accusation, but I never get any evidence.  Nu?

You mean Rabbinic Jews do *not* reject Yeshua as Messiah??

>>> L'havdil, you can probably find a number of Democrats who sympathize
>>> completely with Operation Rescue, but you can't call their position an
>>> "entirely DEMOCRAT PARTY view" since few who define party policy hold
>>> that belief.
>>
>> Good analogy!  Because the present "Democratic" Party bears as little
>> (maybe even less) resemblance to the Democratic Party of a few decades
>> ago as Rabbinic Judaism does to Biblical Judaism.  Thus, I could (but
>> won't) find you any number of opinions of historically mainstream
>> Democrats which modern "Democrats" would say are not views representative
>> of the Democratic Party.
> 
> I'm not discussing what Democrat party positions *are*, I'm 
> discussing who has the right to call his positions in line
> with the Democrat party platform.   If J. Random Candidate
> says he's a Democrat, yet agrees with every G.O.P. platform
> plank, then he's no Democrat in my book.

My point exactly!  A few decades ago this candidate might have espoused what
the GOP stands (?) for today, and have been right in line with the
Democratic Party of the day!  But transport him into the future, to 1992,
holding the same views, and you'd be right in saying he's no Democrat.
Remember Ronald Reagan!

And Messianic Jews are indeed not Rabbinic Jews.  But they are Biblical Jews.

> [Re: Maccoby's _Mythmaker_ book]
>> Irrelevant again.  (But then, I don't think you've read Mike Brown's
>> book, which presents a very favorable portrayal of Jews.)
> 
> No, I haven't read it.  What is its title, call number, and
> publisher, and which Maryland library systems have it?

I just reposted this information (the book is recommended by an RJ rabbi!).
E-mail me if you missed it.  I wouldn't know what (if any) libraries it's in.

>  If I read it, would you read _Mythmaker?_

Nope.

-- Bruce Tiffany

"I didn't leave the Democratic Party.  The Democratic Party left me!"
						-- Ronald Reagan
From: tom@tredysvr.Tredydev.Unisys.COM (Tom Albrecht)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Identification with Abraham
Date: 3 Sep 92 14:07:29 GMT
Organization: Unisys, Applied Technology, Malvern, PA

In article <9209021231.AA09265@aplpy.jhuapl.edu> levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene) writes:
>
>> who knows.  Unlike many of the Jews of Jesus' and Paul's day, no modern Jew
>> I'm aware of can trace a direct, unbroken line back to our father Abraham.
>
>Quite a number can, particularly Jews from Arab countries.  

Is there some documentary evidence to support this statement?

>> Few if any can even identify for sure which of the twelve tribes they are
>> descended from (if they are in fact descended from any of the twelve
>> tribes.)  Their lineage is based on "oral tradition," rather than
>> established fact.
>
>It's more than just oral tradition.  Every Levite, myself included,
>has the name "the Levite" at the end of his Hebrew name, and every
>Cohen, "the Cohen."  Is it unreasonable for something as basic as
>this to be passed down?

I don't mean to offend, but are you seriously suggesting that every
"Levene" and "Cohen" is in fact descended from Levi or Aaron?  I'm not sure
that this naming convention is so water tight so as to guarantee the
factual nature of the lineage.  Isn't it quite possible that some Jews
could have adopted the name "Cohen" because of the potential prestige
associated with such a name?

I guess my point is that under the temple system, family trees where
maintained by the officials of the nation of Israel.  And there was a
central repository for such information.  This census maintaining ability
has been lost for the last two thousand years, and I have a hard time
believing that any information available today could possibly be used to
show lineage conclusively.  Moreover, during the course of those two
thousand years folks have continued to convert to Judaism.  What it boils
down to is that "Jewishness" is not really defined by race, but rather by
adherence to a standard, a covenant.  There are undoubtly many folks today
who identify themselves as Jews who have not one drop of Abraham's blood
running through their veins.   Conversely, there are many folks who do have
some of Abraham's blood in them who don't even know it.  Obviously, this is
true for MJs as well as non-MJs.  It should tell us something about the
wisdom of using racial distinctives as a basis for religious epression
within the new covenant.

My question for MJs: to which of these groups does the promise of Romans
11:25,26 supposedly apply?

-- 
Tom Albrecht
From: Malachi.Robertson@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Malachi Robertson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Identification with Abraham
Date: 4 Sep 92 05:08:51 GMT
Distribution: alt.messianic
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service


Tome recently suggested that the names "Levene" and "Cohen" may have been
adopted for prestige.  Recently on the radio I heard someone talking about
this issue of names (it dealt with setting up a third temple).  They said
that the adoption of the names for reasons other than having been born
with it would be dissuaded by the fact that people possessing those names
were far more persecuted by so-called "Christians" and others.  I can't
verify this (maybe someone else could), but I felt I would go ahead and
share what I heard.

"Malachi Robertson" better know as Ian Robertson Brown
--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Subject: Re: Personal Query: Jewish Heritage
Organization: University of Turku
Date: 31 Aug 92 18:14:39

In article <m0mOd0S-0000NzC@juts.ccc.amdahl.com> rich.bellacera@amail.amdahl.com writes:
> I now wonder whether my "Jewish" heritage is so diluted that it is now
> considered "void" or not?  Some may think this query is moot since I am a
> Christian, but I have a desire to know for myself the significance of my
> heritage from my mother.

From an RJ point of view, you'd be halachically fully Jewish if you wouldn't
believe in Yeshua. From MJ, you are a Jew. Bill might add here "acting 
goyisha".  :-)

> Thank you for your comments.

> -Rich

> Yeshua Messiah (is this the MJ equivalent to Jesus Christ?)

The Messiah Yeshua, Yeshua haMashiach, Yeshua the Messiah...
It's the Hebrew equivalent.

- Laura
--
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans 
of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from ancient, from the days of eternity." - Micha 5:1

"Though the mountains be shaken and the hills be removed, yet my unfailing 
love for you will not be shaken nor my covenant of peace be removed,"
says the LORD, who has compassion on you.    - Yeshaya 54:10

met b'chet, CHAI B'Y'SHUA !
From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: (none)
Date: 25 Aug 1992 16:33:47 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

Subject: Re: Doctrinal statement of the UMJC and the Messianic Jewish Computer Net.
Organization: Johns Hopkins University

In article <139891.2A95C447@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Harvey Smith
writes

> 5. We relate to many different denominations and fellowships, some MJ
>    congregations are Baptist, some Pentecostal, some Charismatic, some
>    Lutheran etc..  Being an Evangelical is the covering that we best
>    relate to.

Then why list yourself in the phone book under "Synagogues-Messianic"
rather than "Churches-Evangelical" if that's what best describes you?

You can tell alot about a person by the company he keeps, and your
company is Baptist, Pentecostal, Charismatic, Lutheran, etc....

R

--
Robert A. Levene     Internet: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu
  "/  //  / /"         Bitnet:   RXL1@APLVM

Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Subject: Re: The Fathers
Organization: University of Turku
Date: 31 Aug 92 20:50:22

Donna, did you get TA's theology I sent ? If not, I'll try again --
I just don't want to post any more junk... (like that description of 
Maccoby's book)

Here's something connected with antisemitism I saw in Ma'ariv some time
ago:

Dam Yehudi

Dam yehudi hu musag miflatzti -- Amos Oz
Dam yehudi hu musag matok -- Yasser Arafat
Dam yehudi hu musag nifla -- Saddam Chussein
Dam yehudi hu musag meshaker -- haChomeinistim
Dam yehudi hu musag meshubach -- haChamas
Dam yehudi hu musag meshagea -- haChizbollah
Dam yehudi hu musag nehedar -- neo-nazim
Dam yehudi hu musag ila'i -- haPamyat
 
The Jewish blood... What's that ? -- Tom Albrecht  :-)

(dam - blood, yehudi - Jewish, hu - is (he), musag - concept, miflatzti -
monsterous, matok - sweet, nifla - marvelous, meshaker - makes you drunk or
intoxicated, meshubach - excellent, meshagea - makes you crazy, nehedar -
wonderfull, ila'i - supreme)

(The original in Ma'ariv June 5 by Meir Uziel) 

- Laura
--
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans 
of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from ancient, from the days of eternity." - Micha 5:1

"Though the mountains be shaken and the hills be removed, yet my unfailing 
love for you will not be shaken nor my covenant of peace be removed,"
says the LORD, who has compassion on you.    - Yeshaya 54:10

met b'chet, CHAI B'Y'SHUA !
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Disputations...
From: tbeaudoin@vax1.umkc.edu
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 06:54:33 GMT
Organization: University of Missouri - Kansas City

> Quoting the Ramban at the 1263 disputation, ".. And does
> not the prophet also say that at the time of messiah 'they shall not
> teach their friends war, etc.?' (Jer. 31:33) and is it not written
> (Is. 11:9) that then 'the world shall be full of knowledge of the
> L-rd as the waters cover the sea?'  And from the days of Jesus till
> now, the entire world is full of robbery and pillaging..."  Similarly,
> billions of people today are atheists and pagans.
> 
> Need I say more?
> 
> Rob
> 

	Can someone recommend a reference for a collection of medieval
disputations, such as Rob has mentioned above?  Perhaps some of us here
might find them a useful historical backdrop for some of the very discussions
we're having on this newsgroup. Thanks!


Thomas Beaudoin
Lee's Summit High School
IB History Program
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Private eduation.
Date: 26 Aug 92 18:43:18 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 8:7002/1.0

To: Rick Miller
 RM=>been wondering if there is a school that will teach him these 
 RM=>things
 RM=>which I don't know.  I've considered sending him through whatever

Hi Rick, i am sure you would be welcome to your local MJ congregation.  What 
city are you in?  If there is one there, your child can learn the Jewish 
roots of his faith without compromising your faith in Messiah...
some have day schools as well, as hebrew school.  After all the Body of 
Messiah is comprised of both Jew and Non Jew...
 


 


--  
Harvey Smith - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG
From: btiffany@pbs.org
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Curious State of Affairs
Date: 1 Sep 92 12:27:42 GMT
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA

Robert A. Levene writes:

> Subject: Re: Clean And Unclean Under The New Cove
> Organization: Johns Hopkins University
> 
> What we have is a three-way free-for-all, not "teams."
> 
> Issues:
> a) Was Jesus the messiah?
> b) Should the "Messianic Jewish[sic]" movement call itself Jewish?
> c) Do present-day Jews have a right to Israel?
> 
> Strange Bedfellows:
> For (a), it's I vs (Tom and the MJ's[sic])
> For (b), it's (Tom and I) vs the MJ's[sic]
> For (c), it's Tom vs (the MJ's [sic] and me)

It is indeed a curious state of affairs, wot?

-- BT
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Subject: Re: My Heritage
Organization: University of Turku
Date: 4 Sep 92 11:02:18

In article <9209040533.AA25385@aplpy.jhuapl.edu> levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene) writes:
> In article <m0mQU7Z-0000hKC@juts.ccc.amdahl.com> Rich writes:
> > In my understanding, Judaism does not believe that any man has the
> > ability to forgive another for trangressions, hence the requirements
> > of the law.  This understanding may be wrong, but it is besides the
> > point.

> You're 180 degrees away.  If you wrong someone, *only* that
> person can forgive you.  Repentance, charity, etc. only help
> if you transgress against G-d.

YOU are 180 degrees away. If you kill someone, you can't ask forgiveness
from him anymore. And if you transgress against God (as actually is the
case always), you are under the thread of punishment until the sacrifice
has been made. Repentance is needed, but charity etc. has nothing to do with
this. (Of course one has to ask forgiveness from the person he has offended,
if he's still alive.)

> >  If, inorder to recieve forgiveness from God blood must be shed how
> > does one do this today?

> Heartfelt prayer, sincere repentance, and righteous action.

Sacrifice. (that was given for us about 2000 years ago)

> > Christian today."  I assure you it was no such thing.  Until you have
> > had the same experience you can NEVER know what it is like to KNOW
> > beyond a shodow of a doubt that God is with you every walking second.

> Actually, G-d warned us about such experiences in Deut. 13:4.

Where do you get that ?

> R

> -- 
> --
> Robert A. Levene     Internet: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu
>   "/  //  / /"         Bitnet:   RXL1@APLVM

- Laura
--
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans 
of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from ancient, from the days of eternity." - Micha 5:1

"Though the mountains be shaken and the hills be removed, yet my unfailing 
love for you will not be shaken nor my covenant of peace be removed,"
says the LORD, who has compassion on you.    - Yeshaya 54:10

met b'chet, CHAI B'Y'SHUA !
From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Clean And Unclean Un / Maccoby Book
Date: 2 Sep 92 20:45:01 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO


           -=> Quoting Robert A. Levene <=-
 RAL> From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
 RAL> Date: 1 Sep 92 04:28:20 GMT
 RAL> Organization: Johns Hopkins University
 RAL> Message-ID: <9209010427.AA01196@aplpy.jhuapl.edu>
 RAL> Newsgroups: alt.messianic
 RAL> 
 RAL> In article <LJMORLY.92Aug31200753@polaris.utu.fi>
 RAL> ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi writes:
 > The bloodless sin offerings were given together with the blood, thus
 > it was the blood in any case that made the atonement. Please give me
 > a quote from Tanach that says that there is atonement without a
 > sacrifice.
 RAL> 
 RAL> Atonement via bloodless sacrifice or no sacrifice at all?
 RAL> 
 RAL> Numbers 31:50 describes a bloodless offering.
 RAL> I Kings 8:33-4 describes forgiveness of sin without any sacrifice.
 > and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the
 > altar; IT IS THE BLOOD THAT MAKES ATONEMENT FOR ONE'S LIFE.
 RAL> 
 RAL> But it doesn't say it is *only* the blood.
      LUCHOTH HABBERITH (242a):  He (the Messiah) will give
      Himself and His life over unto death, and His blood will atone
      for His people.  SEBANIM (6a):  Surely atonement can only be made
      with the blood, as it says, 'For it is the blood that maketh
      atonement by reason of the life' -[Leviticus 17:11].  [See also
      Yoma (5a); and Hebrews 9:22].   [Ex.24:8; Jer.31:31; Matt.20:28]
Maybe that's why them Chassidic Jews wave those chickens over their
heads and kill them before Yom Kippur, you figure? :-)

... 012 Am Israel Chai! 210        
--  
Bill Carlson - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG
From: Donna.D'Iorio@f7022.n124.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Donna D'Iorio)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Clean And Unclean Un
Date: 2 Sep 92 16:02:00 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:124/7022 - MAXUS World H, Dallas TX


    In response to Robert A. Levene's reply to Laura J.M.
RA>From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
RA>Date: 1 Sep 92 04:28:20 GMT
RA>Organization: Johns Hopkins University
RA>Message-ID: <9209010427.AA01196@aplpy.jhuapl.edu>

RA>So tell your "MJ" brethren to identify themselves publicly
RA>as a Christian movement (since they share tenets with other
RA>Christian groups) instead of a Jewish movement (since their
RA>tenets differ from all the Jewish groups.)

    Not exactly true, Robert. If you go back to the root system of the
faith in Yeshua, it is we gentile believers who are sharing the tenets
with Messianic believers rather than how you have stated it here. And
where gentile believers have gone wrong in doctrine traces back to where
we departed from this root system.  A little difficult perhaps for
recognition at this juncture in history, but absolutely true.
    Donna D'Iorio

--  
Donna D'Iorio - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Donna.D'Iorio@f7022.n124.z1.FIDONET.ORG