From: johnsd2@vccnw07.its.rpi.edu.its1 (Daniel Norman Johnson)
Subject: Re: NeXT vs Mac (Again) was "Need to convin
Reply-To: johnsd2@vccnw07.its.rpi.edu.its1
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 05:00:37 GMT

In article a@rpi.edu, gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu (Garance A. Drosehn) writes:
>johnsd2@vccsouth07.its.rpi.edu.its1 (Daniel Norman Johnson) writes:
>> gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu (Garance A. Drosehn) writes:
>> >johnsd2@jec315.its.rpi.edu.its1 (Daniel Norman Johnson) writes:

[deletia- PS level 2]

>> >When a NeXT user tells you that the NeXT supports multiple languages,
>> >the point *they* are making is that a single system can let different
>> >users select the language of their choice.  Ie, you don't have to
>> >install the "german system" if you're prefer to have menu items in
>> >german.  There's one system, plus language packages that you install.
>> 
>> I hashed this out with someone via email.
>> 
>> The way it now looks, what the NeXT gives you is the ability to switch
>> on the fly (if your apps were written in the approrpiate languages of
>> course); this is something the Mac can't really do, but its not very
>> important on a single-user system. (good fer demos tho)
>
>Well, it's important for some people, or at least it's important enough that  
>they have multiple system folders on their Mac hard disk.  Given the size of  
>a system folder these days, and the hassle of a single person having  
>multiple system folders, that's a significant investment.

What does he use them for?

>For those that don't care about multiple languages, well, yes, it's not very  
>important.

:D

>> We are not talking about the same neat trick. I meant mixing them
>> up all higgledy piggledy. Sticking english text into Arabic text
>> for instance.
>
>You could do that before system 7.1, as I had software that did it.  It was  
>a bit of a kludge though.

Ok. Sys 7.1 is supposed to be SpiffyCool about it.

>> >The point being made is that NeXT 3.0 supports multiple languages in 
>> >a single system, as a user-settable preference item.  This does not
>> >discount the kind of multi-language support that the Mac has had for
>> >many years, it's just saying that NeXT has this added feature.  My
>> >understanding is that System 7.1 (with worldscript) is supposed to
>> >have the very same feature, so again I'm not saying that NeXT is
>> >doing something stunning that Apple has never thought of.
>> 
>> System 7.1 does not have this feature.
>> 
>> It can let you USE multiple script systems, but it does not translate
>> menus or anything like that. ONLY the USER uses them, not the apps.
>> 
>> The NeXT is doing something the Mac can't do. It's just not a very big
>> something (unless you are multi-user, like the NeXT say..)
>
>Hmm.  I must still be phrasing this wrong, because the above sounds like you  
>have a different perception of things than I intended.  The NeXT doesn't  
>really "translate" any menu items, it just comes with multiple versions of  
>the character strings for menu items (dialog panels, etc) which are in the  
>system.  The user selects "german", and the system uses the German version  
>of the menu's.  Someone at NeXT sat down and created these language-specific  
>menu items (dialogs, etc), nothing translated them on the fly.

I knew this. I just phrased it badly.

>The advantage here is that you have one copy of all the code in the system,  
>with just multiple versions of the text.  My understanding of WorldScript is  
>that it allows Apple to release one single system which has different  
>resources (already included) for the different languages.  (that's in  
>addition to the benefits you pointed out, with better handling of the  
>different languages, such as the direction of Arabic vs European languages).

I dont think this is true. At least this would be the first
I've heard of it.

>> >It's just a neat capability, and one that did not exist on the official  
>> >Apple system software until recently.  While *you* may not see how this
>> >is useful, for some people it is very desirable.  There are people at
>> >RPI who have three different system folders on their Mac, for instance,
>> >because they want to do things in English, Chinese, and Japanese.  If
>> >you don't, that's fine.  For people who do, things like NS3.0 and (what
>> >I understand of) WorldScript are very welcome developments.
>> 
>> Do they actually want their menus and buttons translated? That's what
>> the NeXT is doing (among other things);  THAT'S the thing which seems
>> minor to me.
>> 
>> >(in my case I'd actually be more interested in English, German, and
>> >Hebrew, but that's just my interests...  Maybe Spanish too, if I
>> >could remember my high-school spanish).
>> 
>> Ah, but do you wish to read your app buttons, etc in those languages?
>> Or just the one your most proficient in?
>
>I want to read them in the language I have selected.  In my case, think of  
>it as more of a learning tool.  If everything on the computer is coming up  
>in German, I'm going to get much more proficient in German (which at the  
>moment isn't very hard to do, seeing that I hardly know any German).

Oh ok. That's something.

>The advantage of this whole feature to the computer manufacturer is pretty  
>obvious, they only have one system which they need to release for the world.   
>The advantage to the average user is probably not so clear.  It's probably  
>only useful for people who *want* to be proficient in multiple languages.

Ok.

>> >Hmm, when worldscript was explained to me, the above is pretty much
>> >exactly how it was described.  I don't have worldscript to say for
>> >sure though (even though I do have system 7.1 installed, it seems
>> >that the worldscript stuff doesn't come on the regular system 7.1
>> >installation floppies).
>> 
>> It doesn't. There are good technical reasons (concerning resource forks)
>> why Mac apps can't be easily updated to have MULTIPLE languages
>> SIMULTANEOUSLY present. So I think I can be pretty confident that
>> WorldScript doesn't do what you seem to be thinking.
>
>Well, given that I've written programs on the Mac, the above comment makes  
>me very confident that I'm not phrasing things right.

Ok.

>While I could certainly be overstating what WorldScript does, there aren't  
>*any* technical reasons having to do with resource forks (or much of  
>anything else, except maybe disk space) why applications on the Mac could  
>not do exactly what NeXTSTEP applications can do.  Even if the code isn't  
>written on the Mac yet, there is no technical reason preventing the feature  
>from being implemented.

Yes there is. The problem is that that Macintosh Files only have 1
resource fork. That means the app can only have one vers
resource for the app (well, they have 2 but they are both used);
how can you create "spares" for it without making the files
incompatable with earlier systems.

Similarly, for a few other finder-accessed resources which MUST be
in the app ITSELF not auxiliary files.

>> >In any case, when a NeXT user says the system now supports multiple  
>> >languages, they are refering to this ability to switch languages as
>> >a preference item.  What you are countering with is certainly an
>> >important feature, but it's not the same one that they (we, I guess)
>> >are refering to.  The support *you* are refering to was also available
>> >in earlier versions of NeXTSTEP, it isn't the feature added in NS3.0.
>> 
>> I know that... now.
>> 
>> I still dont see how the NeXT supports non-Roman scripts tho. Like,
>> Chinese (writing backwards is fun) or Japanese (multi-byte character
>> sets) or Arabic (context-dependant fonts! fun fun!)
>> 
>> My email coversation led me to believe the NeXT didn't cover
>> this things. Is this so?
>
>In Japan they sell NeXTSTEP as a Japanese/English system, so I'm assuming  
>they have support for Japanese.

Guess so. Kanji or Kana character sets?

>  I don't know how it's done, but I believe  
>NeXT's are selling pretty well in Japan (as are Macs, of course).

Something like 5% of the market. Whee.

>  This may  
>be a slightly different version of NeXTSTEP too (at the moment you can't get  
>this on a machine bought inside the US, for instance).
>
>I know that people are working on Chinese support in NeXTSTEP (an alumnus  
>from RPI has seen the current work...), but it's not part of the official  
>release yet.  I'm sure I have no idea how that is done.

Ok. I never heard of it, unsurprisingly.

>I don't know what the status is on Arabic/Hebrew fonts on the NeXT.  I  
>haven't actually seen anything about this, but I'd think that it wouldn't be  
>all that much different to implement it on the NeXT than it is on the Mac.   
>I don't know that anyone has already done the work for it, though.

Don't expect it would be any different really.

---
			- Dan Johnson
And God said "Jeeze, this is dull"... and it *WAS* dull. Genesis 0:0

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