From: mykes@shell.portal.com (mike myke schwartz)
Subject: Re: Democrat == Loony Left??? (was Re: Christiani
Followup-To: talk.politics.misc,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.bush
Organization: Portal Communications Company
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL7]
Distribution: usa, world
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 04:35:02 GMT

Jim Shirreffs (jpsb@NeoSoft.com) wrote:
: 
: >This is an utterly emotional argument that disregards the most obvious.
: >Space is not any kind of frontier.  It has been explored and what we know
: >is that it is not inhabited by life, uninhabitable by humans without adding
: >extraordinary cost to the proposition, and incredibly finite due to our
: >technical inability to go very far.  Exploration of space requires a huge
: >amount of costly technology, while exploration of the new world was possible
: >using existing technology - sailing ships, canoes, backpacks, sleeping bags,
: >and rifles.
: >
: 
: This is mind boggling post, OK from the top:
: 
: >This is an utterly emotional argument that disregards the most obvious.
: 
: It is a very good argument that uses history as a precedent, he could have
: used the vikings, another good example of a people that lost their will
: to explore the unknown. If you want some more just ask, our history books 
: are full of them.
: 

The risk/reward ratio for going to america simply wasn't compelling enough
to the vikings.

: >Space is not any kind of frontier
: 
: No it's not "any kind of frontier", it is the "Final Frontier" 
: 

Another star trek fan...

: >It has been explored 
: 
: It has? Damn and I missed it! I'll have to dig up yesterdays newspaper because
: the last time I checked there where MILLIONS and MILLIONS and MILLIONS
: of galaxies out there with MILLIONS and MILLIONS of solar systems in them.
: 

It's going to be MILLIONS and MILLIONS of years and we still will not have
travelled to any of those solar systems.  We won't even travel to a different
solar system in our own galaxy.  We have sent satellites to every place
possible within our means to travel.  Space, for all practical purposes, has
indeed been explored.

: >[space is] uninhabitable by humans without adding extraordinary cost
: 
: What is an extraordinary cost? Do you know how many of *your* tax dollars
: go to the space program? Is the couple of bucks you pay extraordinary?
: 

A couple bucks here, a couple there, and then you're talking about real money.

: >[space is] incredibly finite due to our technical inability to go very far
: Fork over a few more bucks and many we'll get a little further. This is 
: a self fulling argument if I ever heard one.
: 

Fork over a few more bucks and it will all be wasted.


: >Exploration of space requires a huge amount of costly technology
: 
: So does posting on the internet, have you any idea of the expense of 
: the equipment needed to get your post to my machine? Technology is
: expensive *any* technology, what needs to be address is the *eventual*
: pay back. Space offers mind boggling pay backs for who ever can get
: out there. I once read that there is more *pure* iron ore in one asteroid
: then in all the iron mined by human kind. Think about it, a giant chunk
: of iron floating in space, and all we have to do is go get it.
: 

Yeah, I am fully aware of the cost.  In fact, I'd suggest taking that "couple
of bucks" and investing it in technology to make posting to usenet even
cheaper.

: >That said, I repeat that unmanned space exploration makes a lot of sense,
: >is much cheaper, gets a lot more bang to the buck, allows us to look at
: >weather patterns, gather intelligence data, look out into space from beyond
: >the atmosphere, build maps of entire planets, and so on.
: 
: At least now you are starting to make a little sense, certainly there is
: a place for both maned and unmaned exploration. Robots are OK but they
: can not do everything. Using them for exploration is a good idea, but if you
: really need to get something done, there is no substitute for a .....
: space person? is that OK.
: 

I don't believe that manned space flight should be part of NASA's charter,
and never should have.

: >I also repeat that Star Trek is a fantasy.  We have no ability to travel 
: >at 9x the speed of light, and all scientific evidence is that it is simply
: >impossible.
: 
: What, a speed limit in the universe! Hey I don't see any cops around let's
: go for it. Ok Ok so 186,200 seems to be as fast as a photon can go, what if
: we travel a more direct route then a photon? Maybe we can play some games with 
: time? Who knows?
: 

Pure fantasy.  If it is to become reality, we'll do a lot more to find it by
modelling on computers (which are constantly getting better) than we will by
sending up humans.


: : Also, there will be poor always.  I see no reason why we must subordinate our
: : need to achieve human excellence or our scientific curiosity to the plight
: : of the poor.  First of all, utopianism is unrealistic (curing poverty) and,
: : secondly, we have a right (and a duty to our children) to make our society
: : succede.
: 
: >This is incredibly pessimistic.  Poor is a relative term, and the quality of
: >life for the "poor" is clearly something we can and have been continuously
: >--- improving...
: 
: The best thing we can do for the "poor" and the rest of us as well is 
: provide them (and us) with a growing dynamic society which will enable them 
: (if they choose) to join in the exploration of space. Perhaps with a planet 
: to tame, just like our ancestors provided us with a *new world* to tame. 
: 

The best thing we can do for the poor is to keep the free market unbound from
infrastructure limitations.  If there is a need for humans to go into space,
the free market will make that happen.

: Tell me, should we not explore space? Should we forget about the stars?
: Should we stop our search for knowledge? Are you asking us to simply
: accept a role in life an earth bound mammal, destined to spent it
: existence looking for it's next meal? This dot (.) is earth the rest of
: all the posts ever written is space. Think about it.
: 

Who ever said anything about not exploring space?  This dot (.) represents
the amount of knowledge we've gained from sending men into space compared
to all the posts ever written is to what we know about space.


: jim shirreffs
: 
: i speak for myself and only myself
: "common sense is what tells you the world is flat" unknown
: 
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,misc.legal