From: gordons@netcom.com (Gordon Storga)
Subject: Re: More questions for Suzanne or other pro-life parent
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 92 08:23:38 GMT
Organization: Stay Awake Software

Very long post.  Though not quite  as long as that posting Suzanne did for
Nykos.

<1992Aug12.232518.26589@noao.edu> forgach@noao.edu (Suzanne Forgach) writes:
>gordons@coopsol.com (Gordon Storga):
...
>> Assume your daughter is under-age (say, 16).
>> Your daughter gets pregnant and has an abortion.  You find out about it.
>> What do you do?  
>
>Cry alot.  That was my grandchild that was killed.

OK.  I accept that as your honest answer, although I was expecting
something a little more detailed.

>> How do you treat her?
>
>Like I've always treated her.   Very lovingly.

But she just killed your grandchild?

...
>> Do you try to guilt her during this
>> trying time?  
>
>Some guilt is appropriate, and I tell you now that she is growing up
>with picture books of unborn babies around the house.  ("A Child is Born".)
>She will never get an abortion in ignorance.

Maybe you should also include some copies of the Constitution.  At least
that way she won't be subjected to second class citizenship in ignorance.

>> Do you believe she would get an abortion lightly?
>
>If she'd had sex lightly, you bet.   But she won't do either.

Yeah, right.  Come on, I was being serious here.

>She will be going to an NFP class at the first sign of her first cycle,
>and she will know exactly how her body works, how boys' bodies work,
>and where babies come from.

You didn't tell her yet that babies come from god?

>> (I'm going to try to anticipate your answers, so bear with me.  This is
>> purely to facilitate the conversation and not drag it out over several
>> weeks. If you disagree with my answers for you please supply your own.)
>
>(They just look like repitition to me.)

They were, so you would know what questions I was asking for each
situation.

>> Based on your answers to previous posts, I'll assume you'll attempt to go
>> after the abortionist in some way.  You've said as much before.
>> Let's say your daughter won't tell you where she got the abortion and
>> you're unable to find out.
>
>Let's say that I am raising my daughter so that it will never come to that.

Oh please!  Just about *every* parents claims this.  It doesn't seem to
effect the pregnancy rates much now does it?

>She will never get pregnant without having planned it.

I certainly hope not, but we were speaking in the theoretical anyway.

>> What do you do?  How do you treat her?
>> 
>> Do you beat her?  Do you scorn her?  Do you try to guilt her during this
>> trying time?  Do you believe she would protect the abortionist on a whim?
>
>Repetition is boring, Gordon.

Geez Suzanne!  You opened your response with crying over your murdered
grandchild and now you won't even attempt to punish the people who did
it?!  I got news for you, if one of my parents killed one of my nieces I'd
be pretty pissed and probably would just continue to love them.

>> I'll assume you'll try to get her some counseling to deal with her 'guilt'
>> which she *must* be feeling (you've implied this in other posts).
>> Let's say she won't go.  
>
>She'll go.   We've already established that I am the adult in this situation.
>She will go.

Oh, I bet that the counseling will really work when you tie her up and
drag her screaming to the counseler.  You have obviously never dealt with
a rebelious teenager.  Some will *physically* resist their parents.

>> She won't talk to your priest, she won't even go
>> to church.
>
>I wouldn't send her to a male counselor.   She will talk to other women
>who've been through it.

And how do you plan on enforcing this?  Are you gonna tie her to a chair?
She will have already violated your adament ruling regarding pre-marital
sex and abortion.  What makes you think she's gonna care what you tell her
to do now?

>> What do you do?  How do you treat her?
>> 
>> Do you beat her?  Do you scorn her?  Do you continue try to guilt her
>> during this trying time?  
>
>More repetition is even more boring, Gordon.

Sorry, I should have asked, "Will you use physical violence to force her
into counseling?"

>> Do you believe she acted irresponsibly and
>> now must pay the price?  
>
>I'd believe she acted irresponsibly and now she needs my help.

Aiding and abetting a murderer is a federal offense.  Seriously, I applaud
your parental feelings of protection and support, however misguided.

>> Would you kick her out of the house (or
>> threaten to) 
>
>Don't be stupid.  Just to drive her to another pregnancy and another
>abortion in her unending search for love, aggravated by such an act?

Heck, your fellow pro-lifer suggested it, and while silence doesn't mean
agreement, I failed to see any response from you about his post.  At
least I asked and didn't assume you *would* kick her out.

>WHY DO YOU THINK TEENAGE GIRLS --GET-- PREGNANT, GORDON??!!

Because they've had unprotected sex or had contraception failure.

>It's not even half as much their sex drives as it is their desperate, mistaken,
>attempts to find love in a crazy, misguided world!!

I will accept that there are some girls who get pregnant for these
reasons.  But I do not see teen-age sex as crazy or mistaken, intrinsically.

>And you know what??  If they'd let their pregnancies go to term, they'd
>have it.

Have what --  Misguided, crazy, mistaken love?

>> as Chaney implied he would in another post?
>
>He didn't imply it.  He _stated_ it.  And Chaney's not a parent yet, so
>I'd only believe he'd do such a thing when I actually saw him do it.

So if you don't see it, it doesn't happen?  Is that what you mean?

>> Do you tell her she just comitted murder?  
>
>Yes.

Will you report her to the police?

>> Do you tell her she just
>> murdered her child?  
>
>Yes.

Yet you continue to love her, after she had your grandchild dismembered?
And you don't even report her to the police?  You're a heck of a grandma.

>> That she had it cut up into little pieces because she
>> was unwilling to accept her responsibility?  
>
>Yes, but she will have known that before having it done.
>NOT AFTER.

I suppose there's no law against feeding your children lies and
disinformation.  Poor thing, she has to grow up disfunctional.

>> Do you tell her that when she
>> gets to heaven she'll have to face that child and tell it why she had it
>> killed?  
>
>I'd tell her that she will have had to have repented of that act BEFORE dying,
>or she won't GET to heaven to MEET that child whom she now so terribly misses.

Why do you assume she'd miss it?  How can she miss something she's never
had?

>The child will know, and will be waiting with open arms to forgive her, if
>she wishes to go there to meet him/her.

It's going to be a little blob of tissue with gills and a tail, with
stubby little arm and leg buds.  If she hugged it with her open arms she'd
squish it.  If it's already grown up in heaven then you believe in
predestiny or pre-ordination.  What's the point in living if it's all
mapped out for you by god?

>> Do you try to see her side of it?  Do you ask her to explain?
>
>Yet BET I do!

Confusion: You see her side of it?  OR  Do you ask her to explain?  Your
single answer wasn't clear as to which question you were answering.
I'd be interested in hearing how you could see her side of it.

>> These are all valid questions.  Teen-agers are rebellious.  At some
>> point they tend to just sit down and not budge (metaphorically).  Your
>> daughter might not do this (and I'm sure many will claim they'll never
>> have to answer these questions because they'll raise their daughter
>> "right"), but then again she might.  
>
>No, she mightn't.  

Geez, can I pick'em or what?

>                   My daughter will be well educated in how her body works,
>and exactly where babies come from.   She already knows they grow inside
>mommies, since so many of our relatives and friends are having babies, and
>she's helped pack boxes for her new little cousins.   She's seen models and
>pictures of unborn babies, and with no prompting from me, she has squeeled
>in delight and kissed them!   I have no intention of changing her mind on
>that!

Children often kiss the household pets, and eat dirt.  I wouldn't set too
much stock in her actions at this age with regard to babies.

Be sure to tell her that she is far more likely to die while giving birth
than from an abortion.  At least that'd be an honest thing to say.

>> If you can manage it, stay in the
>> hypothetical, but try to personalize it in a 'real world' sense.
>
>The real world is what you make it, Gordon.

Oh, my world is as real as they come.  Yours appears to be fairly
fantastical.

>The real world is that parents CAN and DO have a HUGE influence on
>their children's view of the world.

Sure do, but they have little control.

All in all, you answered pretty much the way I thought you might: You
denied that any of these things was a remote possibility for your
daughter.  You'd claim she murdered her child, but wouldn't report her for
murder.  You'd (apparently) physically drag her to counseling whether
she needed it or not, whether she wanted it or not.  I wonder if you'd
mind answering all these questions again, but this time assume that
abortion has been made completely illegal, with federal punishment for
procuring and abetting abortion.  I'm just curious of your treatment of
your daughter would change if had committed murder in the *legal* sense.


Gordon
Pro-abortion, Pro-person, Pro-women's-rights and ex-boytoy of Susan, Muriel, 
Cathi, Nora, Jennifer, Sarah, Lynn, Diana (catwoman), and Diana (Sorceress),
and married to a goddess among women, and proud of it.
-- 
The opinions expressed are my own, and not the beliefs or opinions
of whatever company you think I work for.  So there, thhhbbbt!
Message to Kodak:  Freedom for Dan Bredy.
Newsgroups: talk.abortion