From: hauben@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Michael Hauben)
Newsgroups: sci.classics
Subject: LONG POST: Is the Illiad an anti-war poem?
Keywords: Illiad, anti-war, Homer
Date: 9 Oct 92 04:22:01 GMT
Organization: Columbia University

For my Literature Humanities course I have a paper to write about
the Illiad. I have chosen as a topic, Homer's view of war as
presented in the Illiad. I have sensed that the Illiad is
presents war more in a negative sense than a positive sense. The
following are some notes I made. I would appreciate any comments
on what both what others feel Homer is saying about war in the
Illiad and about my notes. (I prefer public comments, but
will also accept email.)

	Thanks
	-Michael Hauben   hauben@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu


Book I:    Page/Line_Number 

63/148 A/W -"Then looking darkly at him [Agamemnon] Achilleus of
the swift feet spoke: "O wrapped in shamelessness with your mind
forever on profit, how shall any one of the Achaians readily obey
you either to go on a journey or to fight men strongly in battle?
I for my part did not come here for the sake of Trojan spearmen
to fight against them, since to me they have done nothing. [Never
yet have they driven away my cattle or my horses, never in Phthia
where the soil is rich and men grow great did they spoil my
harvest, since indeed there is much that lies between us, the
shadowy mountains and the echoing sea;]..but for your sake, o
great shamelessness, we followed, to do you favor, you with the
dog's eyes, to win your honor and Menelaos' from the Trojans. You
forget all this or care nothing.  You forget all this or else you
care nothing. And now my prize you threaten to strip from me..."

74/571 A/W among gods- "Hephaistos the renowned smith rose up to
speak among them, to bring comfort to his beloved mother, Hera of
the white arms: "This will be a disasterous matter and not
endurable if you two are to quarrel thus for the sake of mortals
and bring brawling among the gods. There will be no pleasure in
the stately feast at all, since vile things will be uppermost."

Book II: Beginning of Book II has Zeus sending a dream to
Agamemnon that the time is right to storm Troy.

77 / 35 - "So he[Nestor's likeness in a dream] spoke and went
away, and left Agamemnon there, believing things in his heart
that were not accomplished. For he thought that on that very day
he would take Priam's city; fool, who knew nothing of all the
things Zeus planned to accomplish, Zeus, who yet was minded to
visit tears and sufferings on Trojans and Danaans alike in strong
encounter."

78 / 73 - "Yet first, since it is the right way, I will make
trial of them by words, and tell them even to flee in their
benched vessels."

79 / 109 - "Leaning upon this sceptre he spoke and addressed the
Argives: 'Fighting men and friends, o Danaans, henchmen of Ares:
Zeus son of Kronos has caught me fast in bitter futility. He is
hard; who before this time promised me and consented that I might
sack strong-walled Ilion and sail homeward. Now he devised a vile
deception, and bids me go back to Argos in dishonor having lost
many of my people."  79 / 134 - "And now nine years of mighty
Zeus have gone by, and the timbers of our ships have rotted away
and the cables are broken and far away our own wives and our
young children are sitting within our halls and wait for us,
while still our work here stays unfinished as it is, for whose
sake we came hither.  Come then, do as I say, let us be won over;
let us run away with our ships to the beloved land of our fathers
since no longer shall we capture Troy of the wide ways'
	So he spoke, and stirred up the passion in the breast of
all those who were within that multitude and listened to his
counsel."  QUESTION if the above was Ag.'s test or true feelings?
80 / 155 - "Then for the Argives a homecoming beyond fate might
have been accomplished, had not Hera spoken a word to Athene:...?

Bottom of 80 has Athene asking Odysseus if he really wants to
leave - and she gets him to convince Agamemnon not to.  81 / 196
- Ody. speaking?"For the anger of god-supported kings is a big
matter,"

81 / 211 - "Now the rest had sat down and were orderly in their
places, but one man, Thersites of the endless speech, still
scolded, who knew within his head many words, but disorderly;
vain, and without decency, to quarrel with the princes with any
word he thought might be amusing to the Argives.

82 / 209 - "This was the ugliest man who came beneath Illion. He
was bandy-legged and went lame of foot, with shoulders stooped
and drawn together over his chest, and above this...[Description
of deformity]"

82 / 220 - "Beyond all others odysseus hated him and Odysseus.
These two he was forever abusing, but now at brilliant Agememnon
he clashed the shrill noise of his abuse. The Achians were
furiously angery with him, their minds resentful. But he crying
the words aloud, scolded Agememnon: 'Son of Atreus, what thing
further do you want, or find fault with now? You shelters are
full of bronze, there is plently of the choicest women for you
within your shelter, whom we Achians give to you first of all
when we capture some stronghold. Or is still more gold you will
be wanting , that some son of the Trojans, brings at ransome out
of Illion, one that I, or some other Achian, capture and bring
in? Is it some young woman to lie with in love and keep her all
to yourself apart from others?  It is not right for you, their
leader, to lead in sorrow the sons of Achians. My good fools,
poor abuses, you women, not men, of Achaia, let us go back home
in our ships, and leave this man here by himself here in Troy to
mull his prizes of honor that he may find out whether or not we
others are helping him." "And now he has dishonored Achilleus, a
man much better than he is..."  Then Odysseus curses this man and
hits him with scepter, and kicks him out of the assembly.
Agamemnon agrees with him.

Pro-War 84/298 - "yet always it is disgraceful to wait long and
at the end go home empty handed.

Pro-War 85/354 - "Therefore let no man be urgent to take the way
homeward until after he has lain in bed with the wife of a
Trojan."

BOOK III 101 / 59 - Hektor speaks to Paris: 'Hektor, seeing you
have scolded me rightly, not beyond measure..."

102 / 67 - "Now though, if you wish me to fight it out and do
battle, make the rest of the Trojansst down, and all of the
Achaians, and set me in the middle with Menelaos and the warlike
to fight together for the sake of Helen and all her pocessions.
That one of us who wins and is proved stronger, let him take the
pocessions fairly and the woman, and lead her homeward. But the
rest of you, having cut your oaths of faith and friendship,
dwell, you in Troy where the soil is rich, while those others
return home to horse-pastering Argos, and Achaia the land of fair
women.'

102 / 97 - Menelaos spking - "Listen now to me also; since beyond
all others this sorrow comes closest to my heart, and I think the
Argives and Trojans can go free of each other at last. You have
suffered much evil for the sake of this my quarrel since
Alexandros began it.  As for that one of us two to whom death and
doom are given, let him die: the rest of you be made _friends_
with each other..."

103 / 111 - "So he spoke, and the Trojans and the Achians were
joyful, hoping now to be rid of all the sorrow of warfare."

103 / 130 - Iris spk to Helen - "Come with me dear girl, to
behold the marvelous things done by Trojans, breaker of horses,
and bronze-armoured Achaians, who just now cryed sorrowfuk war
against each other, in the plain and all their desire for deadly
fighting against eash other; now they are seated in silence, the
fighting has ended; they lean on their shields, the tall spears
stuck in the ground besides them. But Menelaos the warlike and
Alexandros will fight with long spears against each other for
your possession. You shall be called beloved wife of the man who
wins you."

104 / 164 - Priam to Helen "I am not blaming you: to me the gods
are blameworthy."

107 - Agamemnon praying to Zeus that fight between Men. & Paris
allowed to happen

108 / 302 - "They spoke, but none of this would the son of Kronos
accomplish." ZEUS won't stop WAR...grr

110 DEM Paris saved from being killed by Aphrodite.  112
Agamemnon announces Men. victory and wants the spoils...but
doesn't happen

BOOK IV 113 / 13 - Zeus "So, the victory now is with warlike
Menelaos.  Let us consider then how these things should be
accomplished, whether again to stir up _grim_ warfare and the
_terrible_ fighting, or cast down love and make thewm friends
with each other. If somehow this way could be sweet and pleasing
to all of us, the coty of the Lord Priam might still be a place
men dwell in, and Menalaos could take away with him Helen of
Argos."  However Hera and Athene wanted to cause problems for
Trojans.

115 / 64 - Hera "Now in speed give orders to Athene to visit
_horrible_ war again on Achaians and Trojans.  115 / 82 - Trojans
and Ach. both saying - "'Surely again there will be _evil_ war
and _terrible_ fighting, or else now friendship is being set
between both sides by Zeus, who is appointed lord of the wars of
mortals.'"

117 - DEM Athene gets Trojan to fire arrow again Men. to break
truce. Promises him "win you glory and gratitude" and "carry away
glorius gifts."

125 - Telling of the screams and hurts in war.

BOOK V 138 / 379 - Aphrodite complaning "...so now this is no
_horrible_ war of Achaians and Trojans, but the Danaans are
beginning to fight even with immortals."

143 - 4: Ares leading baiting / helping both sides

BOOK VI

158 - 159 : AW: Story of Glaukos & Diomedes talking about their
friendship because of father's host/guest principle and thus WILL
NOT kill each other and also exhanged armour (even though
unequal) 159/224 "Therefore I am your friend and host in the
heart of Argos; you are mine in Lykia, when I come to your
country. Let us avoid each other's spears, even in the close
fighting. [There are plently of Trojans and famed companians in
battle for me to kill, whom the god sends me, or those I run down
with my swift feet, many Achians for you you to slaughter, if you
can do it] But let us exchange our armour, so that these others
may know how we claim to be guests and friends and from the days
of out fathers.'"

BOOK VII

169 / 28 Apollo to Athene - "But if you might only do as I say,
it would be far better. For this day let us put an end to the
_hatred_ and _fighting_ now; they shall fight again hereafter,
till we witness the finish they make of Ilion, since it is dear
to the heart of you, who goddess immortal, that this city should
be made desolate.

169 / 43 -"He spoke, nor failed to persuade the goddess grey-eyed
Athene.  Through Apollo gets Hektor to fight Aias to determine
the outcome. So, 2nd arranged one-to-one combat to decide WHOLE
war.

176 / 301 - Hektor so that any Ac. or Trojan can say about us
"'These two fought each other in heart-consuming hate, then
joined with each other in close friendship, before they were
parted.'"

177 / 350 Anthenor "'Come then: let us give back Helen of Argos
and all her pocessions to the sons of Atreus to take away, seeing
now we fight with our true pledges made into lies; and I see no
good thing's accomplishment for us in end, unless we do this.'
But Paris disagress...will give prizes, but not Helen.  179 -
Achaians grant trojans plea for time to burn bodies 180 / 427 -
"But great Priam would not let them cry out; and in silence they
piled the bodies on the pyre with their hearts in
sorrow....[Achaians] piled their own slain upon the pyre, with
their hearts in sorrow."

BOOK VIII - Gods have council and Zeus tells them not to
interfere

BOOK IX

198 / 17 -
Zeus son of Kronos has caught me badly in bitter futility. He is
hard: who before this time promised me and consented that I might
sack strong-walled Ilion and sail homeward. Now he devised a vile
deception, and bids me go back to Argos in dishonor having lost
many of my people....Come then, do as I say, let us be won over;
let us run away with our ships to the beloved land of our fathers
since no longer shall we capture Troy of the wide ways'"
BUT THEN Diomedes says he'll disagree.
201 - Nestor tells Agamemnon he was wrong to take Ach. mistriss
201 / 115 - Aga:" Aged sir, this was no lie you spoke of my
madness. I was mad, I myself will not deny it...But since I was
mad, in the persuasion of my heart's evil, I am willing to make
all good, and give back gifts in abundance...[names gifts]." Also
that he never slept with her.
206 - Achilleus refuses!
207 / 337 - "Yet why must the Argives fight with the Trojans? And
why was it the son of Atreus assembled and led here these people?
Was it not for the sake of fair-haired Helen?"
208 / 369 - "Go back and proclaim to him all that I tell you,
openly, so other Achaians may turn against him in anger."

BOOK 10 - 17  Pretty much only fighting?

BOOK 18
388 / 490 - Hephastios making Achilleus' new armour. "On it [the
shield] he wrought in all their beauty two cities of mortal
men..[First city one of peace...look at description.] 
   / 509 -"But around the other city were lying two forces of
armed men shining their war gear. For one side counsel was
divided whether to storm and sack, or share between both sides
the property...[Tale of death and destruction and hate and
confusion]"like lines 529, 535, 537.  Read it
  / 529 - "..., and killed the shepards upon them...These stood
their ground and fought a battle by the banks of the river, and
they were making casts at each other with their spears
bronze-headedl and Hate was there with Confusion among them, and
Death the destructive; she was holding a live man with a new
wound, and another one unhurt, and dragged a dead man by the feet
through the carnage. The clothing upon her shoulders showed
string red with the men's blood. All closed together like living
men and fought with each other and dragged away from each other
the corpses of those who had fallen."

BOOK 19

393 - Achilleus tells Ag. he wished Briseus was killed a long
time ago so they would not have had this fight.

394 - Ag. says it was the gods that made him take Briseus?

401 / 338 - "So he [Ag] spoke. and the elders lamented around him
remembering each those he had left behind in his own halls.

Book 20

404 - 405 : Zeus telling gods to chose a side to help

408 / 153 - "So they on either side took their places,
deliberating counsels, relecutant on both sides to open the
sorrowful attack. But Zeus sitting on high above urged them on."
So GODS don't want to fight either!

417 / 502 :"The son of Peleus was straining to win glory, his
invincible hands spattered with _bloody_ filth.

Book 21

430 / 466 - Apollo to who?  "Therefore let us with all speed give up
this quarrel and let the mortals fight their own battles.'

Book 22

437 /8 Hektor back in Book ?? disagreed with Polydamas to stand
and fight rather than go back safely into city and realizes 438 /
104 -"Now, since by my own recklessness I have ruined my people."
Newsgroups: sci.classics