HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: charest@Aig.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Len Charest)
Subject: Q: 'Illustrated Encyc. of Middle Earth' available?
Reply-To: charest@aig.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: NASA/Jet Propulsion Laboratory
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 23:31:33 GMT

While shopping in Boston last week I came across a large coffee table type book
whose title was *something like* 'The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Middle Earth'.
The book was organized around topics such as the geography of Middle Earth, flora
and fauna, etc. I found it very interesting, but I didn't buy it because I
assumed I could find it anywhere...

Well, now that I'm back in LA I realize what a mistake I made. I can't find it
anywhere. The Books in Print database has no entry for this book by title, or by
keyword search on encyclopedia, middle, earth, tolkien, etc. Either this book is
out of print or its printed outside the US.

Tolkien fans, help! If you can provide me with further information about this
book, especially verification that it is in print somewhere, please e-mail me at
the address below. Note: I am not looking for 'The Atlas of Middle Earth'. The
book I saw was something different. TIA.
..................................................
                                  Len Charest, Jr.
                 JPL Artificial Intelligence Group
                          charest@aig.jpl.nasa.gov
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk)
Subject: Re: Orcs in the Last Alliance
Keywords: Ents, trees, dwarves, Silmarillion
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 07:48:22 GMT

bafta@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (dragon-monster) writes:
>You are incorrect in assuming that Ents are trees.  They were no more
>trees than dwarves were rocks.  This is outlined in the Silmarillion
>where it states that Aule made the dwarves, and Yavanna made the
>"shepherds of the trees", and proclaimed that they would never get along.

Strange.  In LoTR, Fangorn specifically states that Huorns are becoming
Entish and Ents are becoming Huornish all the time: that sentient Ents were
losing their sentience and subsentient Huorns were becoming more sentient.
Furthermore, there seems to be no distinction between "Ent", "Huorn" and
"tree", other than Ents are sentient, Huorns are subsentient, and trees
are non-sentient (and immobile).  Perhaps there is a distinction between
Ent and Tree that is not present in LoTR, but there seems to be none between
Huorn and Ent.

Tolkien himself describes Ents as, well, tree-people.  They had tree-limbs and
tree-leaves and stuff like that.  Dwarves are, of course, not rock-people.
They didn't have rock-skin or rock-hair or such.  But Ents had tree features
and looked like trees when they were still.  I know they weren't "tree" trees
in that they had "legs" and "arms" but in all other respects they were,
essentially, of tree biology just as we humans are of the same basic biology
as monkeys in particular and land mammals in general.

Of course the Simlarillion and LoTR could easily be contradictory....

					Michael Lewchuk
					lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA
From: ses2@po.CWRU.Edu (S. E. Stansfield)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Dwarves want women (was Re: Melkor: Genetic Engineer?)
Date: 3 Jan 1993 18:59:45 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: ses2@po.CWRU.Edu (S. E. Stansfield)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc12.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) says:

>In article <BzpwuI.25I@max.physics.sunysb.edu> jlauret@sbchem.sunysb.edu (Jerome LAURET) writes:
>>	Do anybody remenber about female dwarves in both Sil or LOTR ??
>
>FWIW, the only female dwarf explicitly mentioned is Dis, sister of
>Thorin and mother to Fili and Kili.  She's mentioned somewhere in the
>appendices.  Unfortunately, it gives no description of her, so we are 
>left with the mystery of whether female dwarves have beards...
>
There is a discussion of female dwarves, I don't really recall which book
it is.  However, what it DOES say is that the only people who can tell
males from females are other dwarves.  This would imply to me that female
dwarves DO have beards.  (It may be in "The Shaping of Middle Earth")

-- 
When subtlety fails us we must make do with cream pies.
                                                    --David Brin
From: mvoorhis@granite.WPI.EDU (Michael C Voorhis)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: ME maps
Date: 22 Dec 92 08:18:20
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute, Worcester, MA 01609-2280
	<BzM3MF.B28@sci.kun.nl> <1h55rsINNbj4@bigboote.WPI.EDU>
	<1992Dec21.203345.12727@rchland.ibm.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: granite.wpi.edu
In-reply-to: seurer@rchland.vnet.ibm.com's message of Mon, 21 Dec 1992 20:33:45 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.203345.12727@rchland.ibm.com> seurer@rchland.vnet.ibm.com (Bill Seurer) writes:

> To the Tolkien purists: LIGHTEN UP!  The MERP material probably attracts
> droves of new readers who might otherwise not be interested.  When I reffed
> MERP the two "non-informed" players both read LotR and one read everything
> by the Tolkiens he could find.

but... but... we CAN'T!  jihad!  jihad!

hee hee...

cool that ICE does put some form of disclaimer on there; that makes me feel
a bit better...

	Mike.
	(mvoorhis@wpi.wpi.edu)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: Elves and death (was Re: "Passing away" into the West)
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 04:17:26 GMT

In <1992Dec21.184346.18877@netcom.com> solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay) writes:

>What isn't clear to me is why the elves have any fear of death.
>F'r'instance, why do they go to all the trouble of maintaining
>the havens and building ships to return to the West? Why not just
>fall on their swords?  Cheaper, quicker, safer.

It's like showing up without your passport.  Never know how long
you'll be held up at Immigration.   And for all we know, the penalty
for suicide is an extra Age spent in Mandos.  What I wonder is, are
there magazines in the waiting room?
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire auditorium		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very Czarish theft.
 |warren@      But the okra
/ nysernet.org is paranoid.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: Eowyn
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 04:23:26 GMT

In <1h4ligINN9qm@mirror.digex.com> dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) writes:

    Also, we have no direct evidence whether Eomer continues warring or
    not.  And if he does consider warring, maybe it's a sign that he still
    has a touch of barbarism to him, and Eowyn is showing evidence of moral
    superiority in settling down.  (Certainly the more advanced men of the
    west all want to settle down and tend to business.)

I posted a quote under the heading "Re: Eowyn (was Re: Elf-human
pairings)" that demonstrates that both Aragorn and Eomer went on
fighting.  See III, 438.
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire ***		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very bitter theft.
 |warren@      But the weeder
/ nysernet.org is not all that ***.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay)
Subject: Re: Redemption in LOTR
Organization: People's Front of Judea
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 05:59:57 GMT

In article <1992Dec31.003012.3254@netlabs.com> lwall@netlabs.com (Larry Wall) writes:
>
>What a lot of folks are missing is that redemption in the strict sense
>*has* to have a redeemer.  Anyone familiar with either Catholic or
>Protestant theology should be able to figure out the rest of the
>puzzle.  Christian doctrine is Redeemer-centric. Thus, the LoTR is
>mostly about *distributed* redemption, the one suffering for the many.
>Frodo makes his sacrifice, even "dies young" symbolically, so that Sam
>and all the Shire can go on living in their pastoral utopia.  Bilbo
>trades his share of the wealth to bring peace between dwarves and men.
>Aragorn does his delayed gratification shtick for the long-term benefit
>of all.  Faramir sacrifices his relationship with his father to help
>two hobbits, and later very nearly sacrifices himself to get his men
>back to relative safety.  And, of course, Gandalf's sacrificial words:
>"Fly, you fools".  Note the plural.

I think the best example of redemption, by this definition, is
from the first age: Earendil's voyage to Valinor. In fact, this
is as close to a Christ figure as we can find. He intercedes
between God (well, gods, i.e. Valar) and Man (well, Men and Elves).
He thus redeems the whole of Middle-Earth, which is in Satan's
(er, Morgoth's) power. He has to pay a heavy price: He is
separated from all his family and cannot dwell in Valinor or
Middle-Earth; instead he has to sail in the sky until the end.
-- 
Andrew Solovay    

"I is not now, nor has I ever been, a Human Bein'!"
                ---Pogo Possum
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Husbands and Wives
Date: 21 Dec 1992 14:27:11 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

As an interesting twist to the sexism thread...

Has anyone noticed that usually when we see a husband and wife together
it seems that the wife is wise and understanding and the husband
is a bit thick-headed?  My primary examples are Thingol and Melian
and Celeborn and Galadriel.  In both cases, the wives let the 
husbands speak first, but generally seem to have a much greater
understanding of what's going on.

And, of course, there's Beren, who is saved and has his quest 
completed by and large by Luthien's efforts.  (Of course, by the
evidence Luthien is the mightiest of all in the elder age, 
besting both Sauron and Morgoth through her magic and leadership.)

It seems that in the marriages where the husband would be dominant,
the wives have died off-screen before we encounter the husbands
(ie, Elrond, Turgon, Feanor).

The one exception I can think of to this is Tom Bombadil and
Goldberry.  They seem pretty equal with Tom being slightly more
dominant.
From: klaus@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Aragorn
Date: 21 Dec 92 09:48:20 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen

solovay@netcom.com (Andrew M. Solovay) writes:

>In article <BzH5xt.2LA@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> mdickey@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Gaelmeth) writes:
>>Also, why in Middle-Earth was Aragorn SO against
>>going through Khazad dum in _The Fellowship_?
>>Did he have some idea of what was to come?

>Aragorn, like Gandalf, had been through Moria on his own. He knew
>that it was an evil place, filled with Orcs, Trolls, and worse.
>He probably assumed that Moria, like everything else, had gotten
>worse in recent years. I think that alone would be enough to
>explain his reticence.

But not his remark that it was for Gandalf in particular that
he feared.

Aragorn says to Eomer: "Maybe we will meet again, even if the
army of Mordor should stand between us." (Quotes from memory)
At the battle of the Pelennor fields, that is exactly what
happens, and Eomer says "I did not know that you were a man
foresighted."

I have noticed only these two examples of Aragorn's foresight
in TLotR. Are there more?

Klaus O K
From: mvoorhis@granite.WPI.EDU (Michael C Voorhis)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Servant of the Secret Fire
Date: 21 Dec 1992 19:01:53 GMT
Organization: RSUC -- Russell Street UNIX & Caffeine
NNTP-Posting-Host: granite.wpi.edu

>I don't know if it's every explained.  Also, what does Gandalf mean
>when he declares himself to the Balrog as "a servant of the Secret
>Fire"?

The secret fire is a reference to the Flame Impreishable, which seems in
turn to be a reference to Eru or the power of the Valar.

At least that's what I always thought.

	Mike.
	(mvoorhis@wpi.wpi.edu)
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Dwarves want women (was Re: Melkor: Genetic Engineer?)
Date: 28 Dec 1992 16:57:56 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In article <forb0004.172.725514904@student.tc.umn.edu> forb0004@student.tc.umn.edu (Eric Forbis ) writes:
>
>The dwarf- women must have beards, else it wouldn't be difficult to 
>distinguish them from the men. I wonder how they reproduce their species? 
>Given a longer lifespan (250 yrs) they'd have ample time, yet they don't 
>seem to be very motivated. 

Maybe they only have a short breeding life?

Actually, if the dwarf women resemble the dwarven men, I can understand
the lack of motivation.  (And it cannot be that dwarves have different
standards of beauty.  If that were the case, Gimli would not have been
so taken with Galadriel.  Unless he was a dwarven pervert who actually
liked women without beards...)

A stranger case, to my mind, is the elves.  They certainly have enough
beauty to motivate just about anyone.  Yet, even though they are immortal,
most elven families have two or three children at most.  (The largest that
I can think of off-hand is the Feanor family, with seven strong strapping
boys.  Not many grand-children, however...)

So what's the story?  Do elven women only ovulate once a millenia or so?
Or are the elves just more into music then love?  (Come to think of it,
while there are many man-elf romances in Tolkien, and a number of 
human-human romances, there don't seem to be many elf-elf great romances.
Since the man-elf romances all seem to involve female elves, maybe the
male elves are a little lacking in testosterone...)

(Please take all of this in the spirit in which it is intended.  And
Happy Holidays to one and all!)


Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk)
Subject: Re: Dwarves want women (was Re: Melkor: Genetic Engineer?)
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 04:17:55 GMT

dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) writes:
>The colors of the other dwarves' beards are not mentioned, at least not
>at this point.  They do have varied colored hoods, however.
>So I guess I was at least partially wrong.  The only strange colored
>beard in evidence is Dwalin's blue beard.  So what's the story?  Is
>it a true blue beard, or a deep black or blue-washed white?  Or does
>Dwalin just favor strange dyes?

I dunno.  Maybe Tolkien patterned him after Bluebeard the Pirate.

>(Also, yellow seems a bit more extreme then a plain blond, but I'm willing
>to let it pass...)

I think Tolkien does not stick to "blond" as a hair color, but instead
uses various other colorful adjectives.  Note the colors such as "sandy
brown hair", "sea grey eyes", etc.

					Michael Lewchuk
					lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: maze@diku.dk (Mads Haahr)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: The necromancer in The Hobbit
Keywords: hobbit, necromancer
Date: 1 Jan 93 16:29:51 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen

I recall that when Gandalf left Bilbo and the dwarves on their way to
Smaug, it was to drive away a necromancer from the southern part of
Mirkwood.

I was wondering if this character might be an early appearance of Sauron
or one of his minions.

Any comments on this?

-- Mads
===================================================================
Mads Haahr                                             maze@diku.dk
Department of Computer Science - University of Copenhagen - Denmark
===================================================================
     "I've seen the future, and it's murder." -- Leonard Cohen
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Redemption in LOTR
Date: 22 Dec 1992 15:31:58 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

It occurs to me that never in Tolkien's writings is there a story of
true redemption.  

There are tales of decent people who do evil acts that they later regret
(Maedhros and some of the acts of the sons of Feanor spring to mind),
but there are no tales where a person becomes evil (ie, works for
Morgoth or Sauron) and later regrets it and joins the forces of
goodness.

Gollum comes close, but chooses evil in the end.  Wormtongue seems to
have the chance, but finally gives it up.  Even Sauron apparently
toyed with the idea of going straight after the end of the First Age,
but as we know that didn't last.

Considering Tolkien was Catholic, it seems unusual that he did not 
pursue such a theme with such powerful possibilities.  I would find
fascinating a story about an orc reaching for redemption, or a tale
about someone going over to Morgoth or Sauron and becoming good.

Any thoughts on this?

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk)
Subject: Re: Dwarves want women (was Re: Melkor: Genetic Engineer?)
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 19:35:19 GMT

dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) writes:
>FWIW, the only female dwarf explicitly mentioned is Dis, sister of
>Thorin and mother to Fili and Kili.  She's mentioned somewhere in the
>appendices.  Unfortunately, it gives no description of her, so we are 
>left with the mystery of whether female dwarves have beards...

I believe in "The Hobbit" or "LOTR" or the appendices to LOTR it is
specifically said that female dwarves don't do much and are hard to tell
from male dwarves because they are exactly alike in appearance, including
beards, and dress so as to not show their figure.

>(Speaking of which, ever notice the strange colors of the dwarves'
>beards in the Hobbit?  Everything from blue to red to green, etc.
>Any thoughts on this?  Or is this a remnant of the more childish
>portions of the Hobbit?)

Beards?  Nonono, perhaps hoods and cloaks.  Thorin had sky-blue hoods
(combination hood/cloak, I believe), one of which he gave to Bilbo.

					Michael Lewchuk
					lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA
From: morgan@sitka.triumf.ca (Morgan Burke)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Should LOTR Movie be Made?
Date: 21 Dec 1992 18:25:44 GMT
Organization: TRIUMF, Vancouver BC
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: sitka.triumf.ca

In article <BzJHxo.8y5@news.iastate.edu>, s_perera@iastate.edu (Sunil M Perera) writes:
|> In article <BzHqoM.Csr@acsu.buffalo.edu> swann@acsu.buffalo.edu (Stephen Swann) writes:
|> >In article <BzA9wB.5zD@unix.amherst.edu> jdliss@unix.amherst.edu (Jeff Liss) writes:
|> >>IMO, the toughest task of a LOTR movie would be to get a director
|> >>who will 'stay true to the spirit of the books' and not turn it into
|> >>his own personal statement, while yet being telnted enough to do 
|> >>justice to the books.  Anyone have any suggestions?  I don't think
|> >>Coppola could do it (not after DRACULA), nor Kubrick (see THE SHINING);
|> >>perhaps Bertolucci or Scott?
|> >
|> >Terry Gilliam (_Brazil_, _The Adventures of Baron Von Munchausen_, 
|> >               _The Fisher King_).
|> 
|>  What about Dino DeLoriantis (spelling?) who did DUNE?

Dino DeLaurentis did not direct Dune (he was the producer).  Dune
was directed by David Lynch (yes, Mr. Twin Peaks).  Although I am a 
fan of Mr. Lynch, I personally feel Dune was an unmitigated disaster.
Even Mr. Lynch was so ashamed of the film (or at least the TV cut) that 
he had his name removed from the television release.  Observant viewers 
will notice that version is directed by "Alan Smitty", a generic name 
used in Hollywood to mean "For the sake of my career, please remove me 
from the list of credits on this film."

Terry Gilliam is one of my favourite directors, and should be able to do 
LOTR some justice.  However, I'm not sure how his love of the absurd will
translate to a Middle Earth setting.  He'd probably come up with a good
Gollum  :-)

-- Morgan Burke
   morgan@sitka.triumf.ca
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: ME maps
Date: 23 Dec 1992 00:58:52 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

Allow me to get my flames in...

In article <6177@naucse.cse.nau.edu> wew@naucse.cse.nau.edu (Bill Wilson) writes:
>And who are you to say that they are not worthy to add to the clear (?)
>flow of historical research on Middle-earth? 

Oh, come on.  ICE is not qualified to add to Middle-earth.  NO ONE NOW LIVING
is qualified to add to Middle-earth.  Only JRRT was qualified in that he
had sole possession of the world.  CRRT has some claim to interpret the
works of his father, but I doubt he would get too far by saying, "While
my father never wrote on this subject, this is the way I think it should 
be."

ICE may well be qualified to make up games based on Middle-earth.  That
does not mean that they are qualified to make up new Middle-earth material
and have it viewed as in any way definitive.

In the same way, Rankin & Bass, Ralph Bakshi, the brothers Hildebrandt,
and many others were all qualified to present interpretations on the 
screen of the Tolkien works.  However, none of them definitively
determine how Middle-earth looks.  For that, you have to turn to the
works of JRRT, in some cases as editted by CRRT.

There is, to my view, only one valid method of researching Middle-earth.
That is examination of the works of JRRT.  In so far as ICE does that,
they are engaged in research on Middle-earth.  However, because ICE does
more than that and continues to fill in the gaps, their work cannot be
viewed as valid Tolkien research.

To be fair to the people at ICE, I do not believe that they are claiming
to be presenting research.  I think that is clear if you read the 
section quoted at the start of the post to which I am responding:

>Each module is based on extensive research and attempts to meet
>the high standards associated with the Tolkien legacy.  Rational
>linguistic, cultural, and geological data are employed.  Interpretive
>material has been included with great care, and fits into defined
>patterns and schemes.  ICE does not intend it to be the sole
>or proper view; instead, we hope to give the reader the thrust of the
>creative process and the chgaracter of the given area.
>
>Remember that the ultimate sources of information are the works
>of Professor Tolkien.  Posthumous publications edited by his son
>Christopher shed additional light on the world of Middle-earth.
>

In other words, we've tried to base this on Tokien's works.  This is in
no way definitive.  Only Tolkien's works are definitive.

Seems reasonable to me.  Let's just not mistake it for scholarship.

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: rjackson@cantor.math.uwaterloo.ca (Darkman)
Subject: Re: Aragorn
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 00:53:34 GMT

In article <BzH5xt.2LA@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>, mdickey@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Gaelmeth) writes:
> Ok.  I have a question that might be answered in
> _The Silmirillian_.  What is the story of Narsil
> and its becoming broken?  And how did there become
> a prophecy of its being reforged?
> 

I believe that somewhere it was mentioned that Narsil was forged by Telchar.
Thus It must have been given to Elindil before Numenor was destroyed.  He brought it with him to ME and in the Last Alliance during the seige of Mordor, Sauron came and faught with Elendil and broke Narsil.  Later on when Elrond was talking to Gandalf, Elrond said to Gandalf that the blade would not be renewed until the ring was found.  I think that this is in Unfinished Tales but I do not have my books with me right now but I read it somewhere in one of Tolkien's books.

Darkman
May the vermin from the depths of Hades arise and vomit on your eyeballs!