From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Secular Jews
Date: 28 Dec 92 04:44:03 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO

To: strom@Watson.Ibm.Com

 RS> Date: 23 Dec 92 16:03:45 GMT
 RS> Message-ID: <1992Dec23.160345.51679@watson.ibm.com>
 RS> Many people who call themselves secular Jews in Israel
 RS> would be Conservative or even Orthodox over here in the US.
 RS> The modern Hebrew word usually translated as "religious"
 RS> has a much narrower connotation than the English word "religious".
 RS> I know an Israeli family who called themselves "totally
 RS> non-religious", and later came to the US and immediately joined a
 RS> Conservative synagogue, and had their children undergo the usual
 RS> religious training.  Are they "secular"??

     Nope.  But them alot of them come over here, and join a Reform
     Temple, or nothing at all.  All to often the idea expressed is
     that it is - UZI my strength, - instead of HASHEM my strength!
     And the attitude all to often seems to be: "tradition" is
     something for ones 'roots'; rather than being part of ones walk
     with HaShem .

 RS> ... traditional Reform considers the Torah divinely inspired.

     "Some", yes; but to many - Temple is just a coffee-club.

 RS> For example, is Bruce Benning, who is not Jewish, but
 RS> attends a Messianic synagogue to be counted?

     As "Jewish", no.  As Messianic in expression, yes.  A Messianic
     Gentile, being of the: M'shacheeym Goyim.

 RS> Are the "Jews for Jesus" and "Hebrew Christians" to be counted?

     As Jewish, yes.  As "Messianic" in expression, mostly no.  Though
     some who go by that title have a Messianic-Judaic expression in
     their worship; mainly those who carry that title worship after
     the manner of the Goyim Churches.  But we've discussed this
     before.  For example, my family celebrated Chanukah - (and no,
     we didn't have a "Chanukah bush" as many Rabbinic-Reform do),
     and recognised the Festival of Lights as also reminding us of
     the coming of Messiah the Light of the world to mankind.  Most
     in those "titles" above, expecially those using the term "Hebrew
     Christians" as their main designation, would have celebrated a
     traditional Gentile Christmas this year.

 RS> ... to the poster's advantage to inflate the statistics, and not
 RS> counted whenever it was to the poster's advantage to distance
 RS> himself or the Messianic movement from criticisms of those groups.

     Regardless of differences, and things that we may not agree upon
     regarding our differing approach to both the Mitzvot and halachah;
     there is one thing that is in common between the groups: they are
     Jewish, and believe that Y'shua is the Messiah.  That is aprox.
     14.5% + of the total ethnic Jewish population, and growing.

 RS> Are halachically Jewish individuals who practice mainstream
 RS> Christianity counted?

     Based upon the above, they are, (as far as being believers and
     being Jewish); but not as "Messianic Judaic Observant" as far as
     their form of worship.
          Are "halachically Jewish individuals" considered Jewish by
     RABBINIC Judaism - of course.  Are they counted as ORTHODOX? No.

... 012 And El*him said: Let Us make man in Our image, after Our... 210      
--  
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