HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: raghavan@wk28.nas.nasa.gov (Venkatraman Raghavan)
Subject: Re: Your Duty as an IA/American
Organization: -
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 92 17:22:58 GMT
Distribution: usa

mba2@Jane.UH.EDU writes:

>                                 Felt a little apathy cause I was 
>certain my "presidential candidate" wouldn't make it, but I ended
>voting anyways.  

Russ (sic) Perot supporter, huh?

---
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: mba2@Rosie.UH.EDU (Puneet_S)
Subject: Re: Your Duty as an IA/American
Reply-To: mba2@Rosie.UH.EDU
Organization: University of Houston
Distribution: usa
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 23:16:09 GMT

In article <6796@news.duke.edu>, dtk@teer27.acpub.duke.edu (DEVENDRA KUMAR) writes:
I still consider myself to be an American. I
>love singing the national anthem before basketball games, pull for the U.S. in
>sports and took pride in voting last week. Too often, we don't care too much
>about local affairs, saying `this isn't our country.' We have to live with the
>fact that there is a good chance that we'll never go back to India and start
>acting like this is our country. Even when many of us get involved in politics,
>all we look at is how that candidate treats the Indian-American community, not
>caring about how they treat the average American. The truth is, until we accept
>this to be our country, how can we blame some Americans for not treating us well?
>If we don't show any patriotism, I can understand why Americans (I'm referring to
>Americans as `white americans' or whatever) don't treat us like they treat
>themselves. 

Ahhhhhh...... but they do.  Depends on where you are.  You'd be surprised,
most Americans don't know where i'm from except Texas.  If I may pose 
another question.  Glad to see you voted, but do you (general here for
the rest of you also) also get involved in local social organizations 
(i.e. Red Cross, City Food Banks, etc...)?  I think i'm the only Indian
in my community who donates time to the Red Cross.  If more Americans see
Indians getting involved in their communities by helping instead of
criticizing, as you've pointed out, there would be a lot less of the
racial tension going on.  I don't recall, when I was growing up, ever
seeing my parents or their peers become involved in local community 
efforts.  I actually know of only one or two fathers that got involved
with their sons scout troops.  Our society is too closed in.  I have
seen a couple of groups getting involved with the community, but it
seems to be very rare.

 The truth is that the
>vast majority of Americans will treat you just fine if you don't act like a
>foreigner here simply to make money. If you criticize their society, their values
>etc. and consider yourself not American, I can see them being pretty defensive.
>My opinion is that almost all racial tension that exists in this country (with
>the exception of blatantly racist problem groups like the KKK) is as much the
>fault of the minority as it is that of the majority.
>

Exactly, but I would be to differ on one point.  It doesn't matter really
if you criticize.  You have to do it with tact or jest though.

>This ended up being partly in response to the other discussion going on about the
>problems of being IA. I'd appreciate comments.
>
>Devendra 
VCD, Puneet (D-Poon) 
 
It's a 106 miles to Chicago
We have a full tank of gas
Half a pack of Cigarettes
It's dark
And we have our shades on.
From: alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: Bill Cosby and arranged marriages
Date: 11 Nov 92 22:19:22 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: AT&T



In article <BHATTACH.92Nov10083220@molly.jpl.nasa.gov>, bhattach@molly.jpl.nasa.gov (Bidushi Bhattacharya) writes:
> 
> Anyone else catch this show?
> 

Yes. I was perturbed when I saw the IA female saying the offer of 50000 dollars
from Bill Cosby to her 'father' was not good enough (it should have been 
more - that is what she implied). She gave an impression that money is all 
that she really cared for.

It reminded me of a real experience with an IA female here in USA.
I met her at her parent's house at her parent's invitation. She was
a doctor and now going for her internship/residency. During the talk with
her she implied that I should pay her medical loan ($60000 or something
like that) if she were to accept marrying me. To me it sounded like
a reverse dowry. Do other IA females also think like that ?

I declined her deal.

Alok
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: nergis@athena.mit.edu (Nergis Mavalvala)
Subject: Arranged Marriages and Wedding Nights...
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 00:12:55 GMT

In article <1992Nov4.231351.20302@cbnewsi.cb.att.com> alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia) writes:
>But they are not as frightened or clueless as you suggest. 
>They are apprehensive but conditioned to expect sex on the wedding night.
>I will share this with you and I hope Preeti or somebody doesn't jump on
>this to make their mark on the net ... (If somebody does, this is my last
                                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>sharing)
^^^^^^^^

Alok, is that a promise????! (or are you just teasing us, as usual?)  :)
Seriously, though. I really hope you got your wife's consent
to post what you did, especially as you acknowledge that Indian's
treat their sex lives as a very private matter.
(I know that if my (hypothetical) husband were to take it upon himself
to post a detailed account of his sex life on the net,
he'd get a swift kick in his paternalistic parts.)

About various comments by you and Amirthi on the general ignorance
of Indian women/girls on the subject of sex:
Most private, and many public schools in India do indeed teach
sex ed classes. I know mine did, in the 7th grade (which is
far too late). All my friends were given the
"birds and the bees" routine by one or both parents at some
point. But this again, isn't representative of all II women.
But the ignorance level isn't as bleak as you two portray.

Alok (unwittingly, no doubt) brought up an important point
that Indian women are "conditioned to expect sex"....just as
they are "conditioned" to expect all the crapola they
typically have to endure in a marriage (y'know, all the
good stuff that half this group usually bemoans while the
other half blissfully denies -- like producing
kids for the khaandaan (household) while holding down a
job and pandering to every whim of their husband and 
his family, at the expense of sacrificing their 
own goals and potential)

That conditioning, IMO, is the "real" problem with arranged marriages.
The arranged marriage market is a buyer's market, and
in a sexist, male-dominated society such as India's,
the buyers are all men (and their families). The sellers,
"condition" their daughters from birth to be marketable
commodities.

- Preeti  pghol@ctp.com
(Don't respond to the account in the header)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: tyadav@athena.mit.edu (Tapesh Yadav)
Subject: Re: Individualism
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 01:24:23 GMT

===============================
 venu@cirrus.com (Venu Nayar) writes:
> tyadav@athena.mit.edu (Tapesh Yadav) writes: 
>> However, that does not mean emotions are what drive attachments.
>> The attachments are based on facts and realities of the other
>> individual's values, character and personality. Emotions do
>> not sustain the relationship/attachment; emotions add to the
>> substance. Emotions are not the cause of attachment, emotions 
>> are the result. 
>
>i don't quite understand this. i would definitely say that emotions temper
>(even modify) most attachments. even if attachments are based on facts (here
>i am assuming that by attachment you mean *human* attachment), it is the
>undefinable emotions (and instincts, the gut feelings) which strengthen
>them. so while emotions may not be the starting cause of an attachment, the
>play a very large role in the contination of the attachment.

 I do mean human attachments. And not "Drive attachments" taught to MechE :)

 Instincts, emotions do add spice/strength to relationships.
 But, what sustains/supports the relationship are values, facts, character.
 Emotions, I agree, are very important in relationships.

>>   "I, and I alone, am the only one responsible for my own happiness" 
>
>however, sometimes it is also possible that my happiness is the result of
>someone else's happiness and well-being. 

 Who is this "someone else?"

T.Y.
----
tyadav@athena.mit.edu 
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: yprakash@mayo.edu (Y. S. Prakash)
Subject: Past Debates
Reply-To: yprakash@mayo.edu
Organization: Mayo Clinic/Foundation Rochester MN Campus
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 92 00:04:38 GMT

God, you guys are great!  Loads better than SCI (the hell I care for flames!).

Does anyone on this net save some or all of the discussions that go on?  I was particularly interested in a whole series of debates that took place in early October regarding the changing roles of Indian women in the US and elsewhere and how they affect the dating and relationship
scenes for Indian men.  I think the triggering article was titled To Marry Indian or Not.  I felt it
really brought the problems of stereotyping Indians.

I would really appreciate it if someone would mail me the whole set if you have it saved somewhere.  Thanks in advance.
	
				Prakash

__________________________________________________

Y.S. Prakash                             1149 First St. SW, Apt. #2
4-176 Anesthesia Research      Rochester, MN 55902 
Mayo Clinic		       
200 First St. SW                        (507)280-8199
Rochester, MN 55905

(507)255-7329/7560


There are 3 things U can grow in Minnesota:  Colder, Older and Fatter !!
_________________________________________________
From: samaddar@siemens.com (Sumitro Samaddar)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: Arranged Marriages and Wedding Nights...
Date: 11 Nov 92 15:30:51 GMT
Reply-To: samaddar@siemens.com

pghol@ctp.com (Preeti Anissa Gholap) writes:

>Its an "unsupported generalization" to say that the arranged marriage
>market in India is a meat market where overwhelmingly,the man's
>party has the clout and "buying power" ??  I think not!

Maybe true for India as a whole, but not necessarily true for most IIs
who come to USA. To put things in perspective, it is said that India has
a middle (or upper middle) class population the size of France. That works
out to be 50/850 ie' about 6% of India. I have also heard figures saying
the "middle class" is the top 15% of the population. A small section of this
6-15% middle class comes to USA. A lot of these IIs have highly educated
mothers, sisters, and other female relatives. I don't think your meat market
generalization is applicable to this group.

Sumitro
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: saeed@watson.ibm.com (Saeed Jaffer)
Subject: Re: Linear times in Amrika
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 16:42:22 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Manish writes:

|> I was thinking how ALONE you can feel in the U.S., even if you're
|> white American, and how SURROUNDED you can feel in India, whether
|> it's a support or a barricade.  I was thinking how CLOSE friendships
|> can be and how DISTANT they eventually turn out in the U.S.

This brings to mind my closest friends here in the States ... the people in my
school that I befriended while attending high school in Pakistan.  I find that
my friendships with them are much closer and warmer than anything I've ever
experienced with Amrikan friends.  Now I'm pretty much an amrikan kid, but
even though I left Karachi over 4 years ago, my closest buddies are still the
ones I met and hung with back in Pakistan.

Of course, this may have to do with the fact that this was high school, and
I'm sure most Americans establish long-lasting strong relationships with their
high school buddies, however, I know that my friendships with my desi buddies
will last a lifetime.  We're like brothers and sisters, and even when some of
us get married (as is happening now), things remain very strong between us. 

Just a thought.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
--saeed jaffer        			You wouldn't understand ...
saeed@watson.ibm.com  			it's a DESI thang.
saeed@athena.mit.edu  			
----------------------------------------------------------------------					
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: pathak@ee.tamu.edu (Rajesh Pathak)
Subject: Re: Bill Cosby and arranged marriages
Organization: Texas A&M University
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 05:22:20 GMT

>a doctor and now going for her internship/residency. During the talk with
>her she implied that I should pay her medical loan ($60000 or something
>like that) if she were to accept marrying me. To me it sounded like
>a reverse dowry. Do other IA females also think like that ?
>
>I declined her deal.
>
>Alok

If you have 60000 bucks  gimme a call and maybe we can go into some kinda 
business. :)

Ravi 
(using a friends account)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: alok@cbnewsi.cb.att.com (alok.vijayvargia)
Subject: Re: Your Duty as an IA/American
Organization: AT&T
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 20:01:00 GMT

In article <1992Nov9.022822.14740@wuecl.wustl.edu>, mps1@cec1.wustl.edu (Mihir Pramod Shah) writes:
> 
> myself, I would like to stress to every II and IA that we should on the
> one hand be proud of our heritage and on the other hand present our culture
           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> and interact with mainstream American society.  Thank you.
> 

I don't think we should be proud of our heritage unconditionally. There are
both good and bad aspects of our culture. Certainly we can not be proud of
the bad aspects of our culture ...

We should critically examine our heritage and culture in context of other
world cultures and norms and take pride in some aspects and try to adopt
or continue them while rejecting some other aspects.

About presenting our culture to mainstream America, we should try to 
present those aspects which are good in our culture.

Alok
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: bhattach@molly.jpl.nasa.gov (Bidushi Bhattacharya)
Subject: Bill Cosby and arranged marriages
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
Distribution: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 16:32:20 GMT

Last night while watching the game, we were flipping through the channels and came across an
IA talking about her arranged marriage to a guy from India on the show "You Bet Your Life"
with Bill Cosby.

He asked her where she met her husband and then did a little play acting where he acted like
her prospective husband (with a very BAD Indian accent) and had another man act like her
father who was encouraging her to marry this guy.  While it was funny, it still does kind
of irk me that Westerners make fun of Indians by portraying them with a goofy singsong accent. 

Anyone else catch this show?

Bidushi :-)

bhattach@molly.jpl.nasa.gov

Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: mps1@cec1.wustl.edu (Mihir Pramod Shah)
Subject: Re: MISUNDERSTANDING
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis MO
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 02:39:51 GMT

Puneet,
      Another excellent posting.

      I already wrote to Ashish personally about this.  I won't go into the
private details of the email letter, but I will say this.

     You cannot run away from racism.  People who are have racist feelings
are not 100% racists 100% of the time.  Racism is only a part of them, and it
is a part that can change.  Puneet's posting was very good in pointing this 
out.  You cannot let racism consume your thoughts, your feelings, or your
lives.  Learn to fight it constructively and not blindly.  Use the courts.
Use reason.  Many far-left wing liberals have been critcized because
they do not fight racism reasonably.  While I am not calling Ashish a crybaby,
many radical liberals have been branded so.  Some complain that whites are
inherently racist, that minorities are incapable of racism.  This only angers
the mainstream community even more.  Like I said, learn to cope with racism.
Verbal insults should be ignored.  Instituitional racism can be fought
within corporate guidlines or the courts.  Use your head, not your rage.
Please, just learn to adjust and get along.  Again, you must adapt to the   
situation, not run away from it.  There are many Indians that live in the
South in states like Louisiana, Texas, Georgia, Mississippi, etc.  These are
states that are notorious for historical racism.  But this is the 1990's folks.
There is still racism out there, but people are learning to live and respect
in our shrinking world.  Thank you again.

Peace...Mihir



Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: tyadav@athena.mit.edu (Tapesh Yadav)
Subject: Re: Linear times in Amrika
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 21:17:26 GMT

============================================
 mvij@ocf.berkeley.edu (Pendragon) writes:
>
>I was thinking how ALONE you can feel in the U.S., even if you're
>white American, and how SURROUNDED you can feel in India, whether
>it's a support or a barricade.  I was thinking how CLOSE friendships
>can be and how DISTANT they eventually turn out in the U.S.

 Interesting stuff. 
 
 I guess individuals differ in their need hierarchy. I, for one, have
 felt/feel a strong need for solitude. Crowds, people, SURROUNDERS bore me.
 Once in a while I wonder, if I am missing something - the CLOSENESS and
 the WARMTH of society. I start accomodating, watching, listening. But soon,
 the "wonder of - am I missing something" wears of. Boredom of superficial
 closeness.....take over. The silence beacons to be heared and loved. For
 silence says so much more than voices.

 Just wondering, if America is evolving my way; god bless America :).

 Anyway, being ALONE is not same as being LONELY.

T.Y.
----
tyadav@athena.mit.edu

ps: preeti, this is ultimate tapeshiana - thanks for hitting the "R" key :).
From: dtk@teer27.acpub.duke.edu (DEVENDRA KUMAR)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: Your Duty as an IA/American
Date: 7 Nov 92 20:37:48 GMT
Distribution: usa

I think it is important for us (Indian-Americans) to get more involved in
politics and society here. I grew up in India and while I'll always support India
in say, a Davis Cup match vs. USA, I still consider myself to be an American. I
love singing the national anthem before basketball games, pull for the U.S. in
sports and took pride in voting last week. Too often, we don't care too much
about local affairs, saying `this isn't our country.' We have to live with the
fact that there is a good chance that we'll never go back to India and start
acting like this is our country. Even when many of us get involved in politics,
all we look at is how that candidate treats the Indian-American community, not
caring about how they treat the average American. The truth is, until we accept
this to be our country, how can we blame some Americans for not treating us well?
If we don't show any patriotism, I can understand why Americans (I'm referring to
Americans as `white americans' or whatever) don't treat us like they treat
themselves. I know I was angry when people in Bangalore would celebrate after
Pakistan beat India in cricket. It's the same deal here. The truth is that the
vast majority of Americans will treat you just fine if you don't act like a
foreigner here simply to make money. If you criticize their society, their values
etc. and consider yourself not American, I can see them being pretty defensive.
My opinion is that almost all racial tension that exists in this country (with
the exception of blatantly racist problem groups like the KKK) is as much the
fault of the minority as it is that of the majority.

This ended up being partly in response to the other discussion going on about the
problems of being IA. I'd appreciate comments.

Devendra
From: amiller@almaden.ibm.com (Alex Miller)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: Problems faced by Indian immigrants not common to Chinese or
         Japanese
Date: 5 Nov 1992 04:45:02 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

mps1@cec1.wustl.edu (Mihir Pramod Shad) writes:

> First, let me list the population of various Asian groups according to
> the 1990 U.S. Census:

> ASIAN INDIAN                                 815,447  (0.3%)

> . . . I will vaguely quote . . . in 1980 there were only about
> 350,000 Indians as compared to 815,000 today.
  ^^^^^^^
  390,000 according to my sources, but this is still a remarkable
population increase.  I wonder how much of this is due to

(1) The 1965 Immigration Act, allowing reunification of families,
    i.e. chain-migration
(2) Economic migration - especially for professionals (Doctors
    and Engineers)
(3) a "baby-boom" of the 2nd and 3rd generations as intermarriage
    and reunification created more or less equal male:female ratio?

These numbers seem much too large to all be students on H-2 visas.

>  If you were to visit Kennedy Airport, you will see a few signs
>  subtitled in Hindi (with about then other languages, of course).

Yes, I noticed them.  I used to live in N.Y.C. and as I recall, it
would probably be appropriate to put subtitled signs on the
number 7 subway train that goes to Flushing/Main Street.      8-)

I was aware of the large concentrations in the Imperial and
Sacramento Valley area in California, and could have guessed
about the NJ/NYC areas, but the suburbs around Chicago, Washington,
and Houston are certainly interesting.  I'll try to remember to
ask my doctor if he heard of percentage of Asian Indian doctors
at Cook County Hospital (my doctor, by the way, is Ethiopian.)

Back to my original question:

      Select three unique challenges faced by immigrants
      from India which were not common to their counterparts
      from either China or Japan.  How do you account for
      the differences?

Does "late arrival" compared with Chinese and Japanese immigrants
constitute a challenge?  A direct comparison with the Chinese who came
in the 1850s-1882, or the Japanese who came 1900s-1924 doesn't make
much sense.  The Chinese and Japanese "worked the edges", i.e. did
work that others generally didn't want to do (railroad and
agriculture---also pioneering new markets for fishing and agriculture)
The bulk of the AI immigrants seem to be professionals, and more
recently merchants - who are in direct competition with the "white
majority."

Another challenge is the inability of many Americans to distinguish
between ethnic groups.  Vincent Chin, a Chinese-American, being
killed in Detroit because some thugs thought he was Japanese and
he was personally responsible for them losing their jobs.  Just
as Pearl-Harbor was going to fade away as the Bush-generation
loses power, the new Japan-bashing re-affirms that "YOU BETTER
CARE IF YOU LOOK LIKE THE ENEMY OF AMERICA."  Are Asian Indians
persecuted because, to some idiots, they look like Iraqis???

Alex Miller
amiller@almaden.ibm.com
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: baindur@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Satyen G Baindur)
Subject: Re: arranged marriages
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 18:16:24 GMT

In article <1992Nov7.165315.18048@midway.uchicago.edu> moh2@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>Hmmm....
>
>I suddenly realized that half the women I talked to were in fact Sri
>Lankan, and from small villages.  Therein may lay the heart of the
>problem.
>
>I have to be careful about such generaliations of Sri Lankans as
>Indians - it's similar, but not quite the same.

Should we now discount the other generalizations we have heard from you 
over the last few months, for example those about Indian men, for similar 
reasons ?!


Satyen
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian,soc.culture.asian.american