From: sdoe@nmsu.edu (Stephen Doe)
Subject: Re: iq<->religion: connection?
Organization: New Mexico State University
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1992 21:11:08 GMT

In article <1992Dec27.115107.6732@prime.mdata.fi> iikkap@mits.mdata.fi (Iikka Paavolainen) writes:
>In article <1992Dec27.044332.27661@nmsu.edu> sdoe@nmsu.edu (Stephen Doe) writes:
>>In article <1992Dec25.162355.8674@prime.mdata.fi> iikkap@mits.mdata.fi (Iikka Paavolainen) writes:
>>>Environment, personality and idealistics are also important factors, 
>>>but not as important is logical intelligence. You can also find atheists
>>>among the dumbest people.
>>
>>One question:  How do you know they are not as important?
>
>How do you know that 1+1 is 2?

It's not as obvious as 1+1=2, except perhaps to doctrinaire atheists
such as yourself, who must have it so.

"You can also find atheists among the dumbest people."  Hmmm.

>>
>>I don't know, but I'm starting to suspect you people are seeing what
>>you'd like to see.  I have NOT seen this correlation, in my own
>>personal interactions with intelligent people (or "logical
>>intelligent" people, if you prefer.)  No one has provided a citation
>>to any sort of study yet that would confirm OR deny the alleged
>>correlation.  All I've seen are arguments like "Well, within my circle
>>of friends, I've observed a correlation between intelligence and lack
>>of belief."  I believe Onar then responded with, "Well, in MY circle,
>>most everyone with IQ>125 is Christian," to which Iikka responds by
>>saying that he ought to raise the cutoff to an IQ of 160.  
>
>125 is a low level

>>
>>The fact that I have pointed this out has earned accusations of
>>"emotional attachment" to Christianity by Iikka.  I responded by
>>saying that my emotional attachment is only to decent intellectual
>>standards, which in Iikka's mind somehow confirms the correlation he
>>is trying to show.  (Ironically, he does not seem to mind that he may
>>have an "emotional attachment" to the idea that atheists are more
>>intelligent than theists.)
>
>As many people probably know, it is much easier to get an emotional
>attachment to Christianity.

I think you have presented ample evidence that one may also have an
emotional attachement to the idea of atheist superiority.

>>
>>My friends, if a Christian came here and said, "On the basis of my 8
>>intelligent friends, who are all Christians, I conclude that
>>Christians in general are more intelligent that atheists," you'd flame
>>said Christians to ashes.  You'd certainly ask for more hard evidence
>
>"8 friends" seems to be stuck in your skull. Suppose we won't be getting
>anywhere before you broaden your vision.

My argument is not necessarily against the premise that atheists are
more intelligent than general, but against the "8 friends style of
argument."  Except for that one study you cited, which I intend to
look up, that's the only argument anyone has presented.  If you don't
agree with me, that that's a crappy method for establishing any
proposition, then among other things I suggest you take some refresher
courses in basic science.

>>of such an assertion.  Yet I get flamed by the likes of Iikka, for
>>daring to question such questionable methodology.  I'm sorry if it
>
>When did I flame you? You started be flaming *me*, wake up!

By speaking of my "emotional attachement" to Christianity (which
doesn't even exist, as others who have seen past articles of mine
realize.)  That was an ad hominem attack on my position, which started
this whole ball of wax rolling.

>>upsets you, but I have no intention of holding my fellow atheists to
>>standards less rigorous than the standards I would apply to Christians
>>making equivalently outrageous statements.  If you have good, solid,
>>statistically significant data in support of your position, then let's
>>have it Iikka!  Otherwise don't waste my time.
>
>You can have all the time you want by not posting your flames.

Yes, it's becoming a bit tiresome trying to debate someone
uninterested in rigorously supporting their position, someone who
thinks "oh, just look around you, and stop bothering me" is a good way
to support a position.

SD