From: kosinov@ceg.uiuc.edu (Greg Kosinovsky)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Reply to S. Borodin (was: Antisemitism and Verbitsky)
Date: 7 Nov 92 16:42:45 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana


  Ladies and gentlemen, let me first thank Mr.Antonov for confirming the validity
of my post. After all, shouting obscenities and crying "lier" repeatedly has
long been recognized as the most classic and obvious concession.
  In view of that, there is no need to respond to any of Mr. Antonov's points
directly, but since he left himself so wide open, it's too hard to resist.

avg@rodan.UU.NET (Vadim Antonov) writes:

>In article <kosinov.721066584@ceg.uiuc.edu> kosinov@ceg.uiuc.edu (Greg Kosinovsky) writes:
>> Jews were indeed heavily represented in the Bolshevic party (though not
>>nearly as much as among Menshevics and some other Socialist opponents of
>>Bolshevics). But that is nearly irrelevant, Since, unlike other socialist
>>parties, Bolshevic philosophy and policy was completely and exclusively
>>defined by Vladimir Ulyanov Lenin.

>Ne pizdi. Ne lyubish' pravdu, da?

Brilliant retort!! However, every child in the world knows that Lenin was to
Bolshevism what Hitler was to Naziism -- indispensable and absolute.
As for the number of Jews in the various RSDRP factions, it was Stalin who
quipped (before the Revolution) that considering the number of Jews among
Menshevics, the Bolshevics should start an anti-Semitic campaign against
them (ha-ha).

>Trudovye lagerya i krasnyi terror pridumal i aktivno protalkival
>nekto Leon Trotskiy. Navero ne evrei on byl.

Lenin was the one who put forth the idea of "extermination (istrebleniye)" w/r/t
the  "burgeois" class. The fact that Trotsky and other faithful dogs rushed
in with the plans on how to implement it (always monitored and approved of by Lenin)
does not absolve Lenin of primary responsibility.

>S 2/3 sostava TsKa fraktsiya Trotskogo bylo ochen' dazhe opredelyayushei
>politicheskoi siloi.

There was indeed a Trotsky faction in TsKa, as there were factions of other
leading Bolsheviks (Krasin, Bukharin, for example). Lenin was usually tolerant
toward debate in TsKa over the tactical issues, but no dissent was tolerated on
fundamental goals (set by Lenin), nor any sign of dissent once TsKa adopted
a decision.

>>  Now, let's examine the "Un- Russian" nature of Lenin's Bolshevism:

>Ah. Naverno on byl patriot. I nekto po familii Pervus byl sovershenno
>ne priochyom. A takzhe tam byl kakie-to Engel's s Marksom s ihnei
>cherezvychaino gumannoi teoriei klassovoi bor'by. Naverno russkie.

I never claimed Lenin was a patriot, only that that was his family background.
About Marxism, I EXPLICITLY stated that it was German. The Russian contribution
to Bolshevism, as I made clear, was the NV Nihilism.
As for Alexander Gelfand, also known as Parvus (and not Pervus), he was an anti-
Bolshevic socialist and a German agent who had a great tactical idea on how to
get Lenin to Russia for the benifit of Germany. Now, that was certainly good
for Bolshevics, as well as Germans, but what does it have to do with ideological
roots of Bolshevism (Russian, un-Russian, or any other kind)?

>>Lenin was raised in a Russian patriotic-coservative family of Ilya Ulyanov,
>>a States-Councelor in His Magestie's Government. (The career of Alexander 
>>Ulyanov is not an indication of family's radicalism. Most members of 
>>Narodnaya Volya came from such "enlightened-coservative" families).

>Aga. V pripadke konservatizma NV bombila tsarya.

Once again, I simply stated that most NV radicals came from Russian conservative 
families.

>>The
>>preponderance of Asian-minority blood in Ilya Ulianov's veins is also not
>>an argument against his patritism -- most Russian intellectuals with
>>his ethnic background were patriots, and he certainly had no less Russian
>>blood in him than The Sovereign of All the Russias himself.

>A KTO govoril chto natsional'nost' voobshe imela kakoe-libo k etomu
>otnoshenie? Eto vy, tovarishi evrei etu von' razveli. A teper'
>delaete vid chto nichego ne bylo. Samye obizhennye.

How fascinating!! First: THE DAMN JEWS MAID THE REVOLUTION!
	     And  Now:   THE ETHNICITY IS IRRELEVANT.
Make up your mind Mr. Antonov

>[pizdezh pro psihiku lenina propushen kak bessmyslennyi]

I think Mr. Antonov and I have different definitions of "normalcy". I believe
that a man who hates the whole human race and actively works to "exterminate"
a good part of it is very ill. Mr. Antonov seems to think otherwise.

>>And, indeed, if not for the support of Russian Peasant--
>>based SR's, Bolshevics could never have held on to power.

>Kogda nibud' hot' odnu knizhku po istorii chital? U bol'shevikov
>byla podderzhka tol'ko v bol'shih gorodah.

Yes, I do read history. However, Mr. Antonov doesn't read the posts he is
responding to.
What that phrase says is that Bolshevics (who had limitted popular support)
couldn't have made it without the support of (Russian peasant-based) SR Party.

>>Some notes in conclusion:
>> Russians have no one but themselves to blame...

>Evrei tozhe. Chto ya vsyo vremya i govoril.

If you explicitely concede that point, than why is it so HARD FOR RUSSIANS
NOT TO HATE JEWS ?-- see your previous posting.

>> They were the only ones who could have stopped it, but didn't.

>Ne prosh'e bylo by ne nachinat'?

So Jews are to blame for starting it after all! It seems Antonov flip-flops
not just from-post-to-post, but from-line-to-line.

>>   Russians were indeed slaughtered under Lenin and Stalin, but in no greater
>> proportion then Jews or other minorities.

>Kvoty dlya evreev v VUZah (esli byli) byli v lyubom sluchaye ne men'she
>chem vb proportsii k naseleniyu. Vash argument, tovarish.

My God, saying that all ethnic groups were slaughtered under Lenin and Stalin
is "the same argument" as saying that Jews weren't discriminated in college
admissions after 1950's??? Remarkable, absolutely remarkable !!!

>>   One of the main executors of LENIN's Red Terror was, indeed, the 'Chukcha'
>>   Trotsky, but the two others -- Krilenko and Dzerzhinsky -- were Slavs.

>I oba ne imeli nikakogo politicheskogo vesa. Dekrety-to ne oni vypuskali.
>Kstati, krasnyi terror pridumal i protalkival vsyoi-taki LT. Ne nado vrat'.

Positions of Krilenko and Dzerzhinsky in SovNarKom were on the same level as
that of Trotsky (exept, in case of Felix, for the brief period when ChKa was
under RevVoyenSovet). See also my previous comment on the Origin of Red Terror.

>> INDEED, the only person in the Bolshevic Government who tried (unsuccessfully)
>> to stop the Red Terror was another chukcha -- Isaak Steinberg.

>Aga. Snachala on tuda popal a potom pytalsya. V teh mestah chistyh ne bylo.

How many other examples of humanity does Mr. Antonov know within early Bolshevic
governments?

>> Now, a disclaimer:
>>   this post was solely intended for decent people on this network, and is not
>>   in any way intended to dissuade Antonov and his ilk from joining Pamyat.

>Esli pod "dostoi'nymi" ponimat' lyudei kotorye prikidyvayutsya
>"politicheskimi bezhentsami" uehavshi za belymi bulkami, to my
>imeem sovershenno raznye ponyatia o tom chto takoe "dostoi'nyi".
>Dostoinyh lyudei vysylali. A vy -- tak, govno.

My parents, who a long time ago were also Russian patriots, got tired of seeing
their son assulted every other day by bands of older hoods screaming "Zhid".
So they took my sister and me from the supposedly "tolerant" Minsk and brought us
to the "backwater - redneck - good-old-boy" State of Nebraska, were that never
happened again, and I grew up there in peace and and fell completely in love
with my new country. America is where I live, America is were I work, to America
alone I owe allegiance. And I know that if a country I loved was in a most crucial
transitionary state, I wouldn't run accross the ocean to wait for more peaceful
days.

>>   First of all, nothing can accomplish such a Herculean
>>   task, and secondly, Pamyat is were they belong.

>Net, pochemu zhe. Dostatochno perestat' vrat'. Vy ne zasluzhili dazhe
>togo chtoby vas kto-nibud' presledoval.

Thank you once again for your support.

					Greg Kosinovsky.