From: msg7038@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Michalis  Syrimis)
Subject: Re: Linovambakoi (Re: Turkish Cypriots reject ENOSIS)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 00:39:32 GMT
Keywords: Ali Pasas, The King, Makarios, Chrysostomos, Vasiliu, Enosis, Palikaria, Akritas

bse@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Besime Erin) writes:

[ some lines deleted]

>>>GET OFF of it Symiris !!!
>>Besime control yourself, you are becoming a public scene.
>>Watch your typing too.  

>I don't really care much as to how I am perceived on a simple computer
>network !

That's fine by me, just watch your typing then, don't mutilate people's
names.

>>
>>>Turkish Cypriots ARE TURKISH Cypriots.
>>
>>Exactly.  In your previous article you presented your arguments, which
>>were perfectly logical, and with which I agree completely.  It's how one 
>>feels that determines his ethnicity / nationality and not his genetic code.
>>Read also the posting by Lambros Skartsis about the more general subject, his
>>views are not very different than ours.
>>
>>However, the fact remains that some of the Turkish Cypriots indeed were 

>Do you have factual information or documents proving your claim ?
>[By the way, you called it a thesis in the quoted part above, why and how
>did it suddenly turn into a fact ?] 

>>Greek Cypriots who converted to islam during the years of the Ottoman rule.  
>>Historical Truth is Historical Truth.

>Again, any documents, any facts ?

You have a point there.  However, I shouldn't have called it a fact without
proving , or presenting evidence for its validity.  Since the argument in this
discussion is historical it is easy for one to prove it right or wrong. 

>and let's say some Greeks were in fact converted to Islam, why should they
>also start speaking Turkish ?????? or have traditions really similar to people 
>in certain parts of Anatolia ????? [which how most Turkish Cypriots are]
>Can you explain that ?

>[ so you might say they were forced to speak Turkish, then why are there plenty
>of Greeks in Cyprus right now who speak Greek and are Christians. Only a 
>privileged few were forced to change their religion and language ? ]

>>That's the whole point I was trying to make, but your went several steps 
>>ahead and saw different intentions and implications.

>I just didn't like the way you guys jumped on the idea or accepted right 
>away Theodore's claim that "some" Turkish Cypriots were/are in fact Greeks.
>You didn't even question it, because it sounded good, didn't it ? 
>Everyone in this world are decended from us, vow..... 

Besime you are again running ahead of us.  Personally, I heard 'Theodore's
claim' many times in the past, and I am convinced that it is true.      

>>
>>Here's a suggestion for you. Maybe if you try to post more often in this
>>network and with a different attitude from what you are doing now (note you
>>did say that you would be only posting to annoy people, didn't you?),
>>perhaps you will be able to stay calm and write things that make sense.  

>If you don't like my postings, don't read them or reply to
>them, or put me in a kill file.

>>>It's because what you are doing right now is what the Greek Cypriots
>>>want to repeat to us OVER AND OVER AGAIN so that their last obstruction
>>>to Cyprus turning into a GREEK ISLAND is eliminated.
>>
>>Sorry, if I heard your feelings, but please explain what I did which was


>>>>Regarding the thesis that some Turkish Cypriots are of Greek origin, 
>>>>linobambakoi, an undisputable fact supporting it is that many Tyrkish 
>>>>villages had names of Saints.  The one that comes to my mind now is
>>>>Ayios Nikolas (Saint Nicholas) in the Paphos District, close to Platres
>>>>and Arsos. 

>The fact that some majority Turkish vilages had Greek names is no fact 
>supporting that "some" Turkish Cypriots are actually Greek. 

And can you tell me of one single valid reason for which people who came
from Anatolia between the 16-19 century, and settled in Cyprus would
call their village by a name of Greek Saint.

As I said above Theodore's thesis is presented in various sources. In 
Christopher Hitchens book 'Cyprus', Quartet Books, London, 1984, on page
162 you can read the following:
	Greek Cypriots are fond of quoting those British figures from the
past, notably Sir Ronald Storrs, who were sensible enough to realize that
if they felt themselves to be Greek, they were Greek.  The same must be 
held to apply to the Turks.  It is true that Cyprus has a long history
of symbiosis, typical of Ottoman Asia Minor.  There was for some time a local
sect known as *linobambakoi* or in English 'linen-cottons' who, as their
nickname implies, were dualists.  They practised both Christian and Muslim ritesand each took both a Christian and a Muslim name.  Perhaps as a partial result
of this and other symbiotic elements, Turkish Cypriots had adopted the practice
of giving themselves surnames long before Kemal Ataturk's reforms made the
adoption of a surname obligatory on the mainland.  Many Christian Cypriots 
converted to Islam under Ottoman rule, if only to escape the special taxes
from which 'believers' were exempt.  Several Turkish Cypriot villages bore the
names of Christian saints as a result -or did until the enforced Turkification
of place names by the Denktash regime.

So Besime, Theodore's claim which was also my thesis, DOES become a fact as
you can see from the above.   

Were names of such Turkish Villages in northern Cyprus really changed by the 
Denktash administration?  I have never thought of this.

>>wrong, so that I'll try to avoid it in the future. Maybe don't mention
>>historical facts that cause tension between us for example.  That is not 
>>necessarily a bad idea provided there would be sincere willingness to 
>>discuss about the real issues.
>>

>As far apart that we are(Greek-Turkish Cypriots), I am not sure that 
>it's worth the effort.

Suit yourself.

>>Looking forward to hearing from you again.

>Besime.


-- 
Michalis Syrimis
University of Illinois
Urbana-Champaign

Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek