HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lkk@panix.com (Larry Kolodney)
Subject: Re: The White Man's Burden.
Organization: The Devil's Advocate
Distribution: usa
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 05:41:38 GMT

In <1993Jan20.190558.6134@cs.wm.edu> sunny@co.cs.wm.edu (John S. Egbo) writes:


>Since we are trying to understand stuff here, I will go on to finish my
>statement that technology alone is NOT the reason for Europe's
>enslavement of Africa.  

>Given that we know that neccessity is the mother of invention and thus
>all technology comes as a result of need; What prompted Europe to develop
>its superior armament in the 15th century?  I am very curious to know the
>answer.

Its not as simple as that.  To say that "superior armaments" were
necessary is only to say that Europeans, like every other culture on
Earth, periodically engaged in wars.  Obviously if you engage in war,
having superior weapons gives you and advantage.  Do you think that
Europeans invented the musket just so they could invade Africa?  Or
that Africans were loathe to use European weapons when given the
chance?  

Why did Europe develop these weapons before Africa had the chance?  I
think that's a very interesting question, and I have no clear answer
for you.  But I'll make a few observations.  A whole slew of precursor
technologies (such as smelting of iron) were necessary before the
technology to produce weaponry could even be conceived.  And those
technologies had a variety of uses, not all military.  Iron smelting
was useful in particular for agriculture (the plow).  Moreover, the
climate of Europe is much harsher than in most of Africa.

For Europeans, developing improved technology was often a necessity
for merely surviving against the cold and barren winters.  One of the
major motivations for the first seagoing explorers was the discovery
of better routes to the spice producing regions of Asia.  Spices were
important in preserving food.

So if your looking for a "necessity" which is the "mother" of Europe's
technological development, you've got it: Europe was a cold, not
particularly fertile, and densly populated place whose inhabitants
developed technology to make life less horrible.  In the process, the
also developed ways to kill other people in large numbers.  This
eventually led to the logic of imperialism, which allowed Europe's
limited natural resources to be supplemented by booty stolen from
overseas.

-- 
larry kolodney:(lkk@panix.com) 
_(*#&)#*&%)@(*^%_!*&%^!)*&#+!*&$+!?&%+!*&^_)*&#%)*&^%#+&
The past is not dead, it's not even past.   - Wm. Faulkner
From: glovercj@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: The White Man's Burden.
Date: 22 Jan 93 19:59:20 GMT
Organization: Drexel University

In article <1993Jan22.145531.1293@starbase.trincoll.edu>
nmiller@starbase.trincoll.edu (norman miller) writes:
>In article <1993Jan21.191323.21866@netnews.noc.drexel.edu>
glovercj@duvm.ocs.dre
>xel.edu writes:
>
>>No evidence of industrialization in Africa, what are the Pyramids? These are
>>the only Great wonders of the world that are still standing. Read "Stolen
>>Legacy" by George G.M. James, it thoroughly describes everything.
>
>>Chad J Glover
>nowadays to an "advanced" kind of social organization that depends on the
>existence of a myriad of special tools, huge amounts of power, etc.: the
>kinds of things, in short, that are purportedly taught at Mr. Glover's
>institution.  The Pyramids were great works, as were the irrigation
>system in ancient China, flush toilets in Crete, etc.  But industriali-
>zation?  Try early 19th Century Britain.
>
>Norman Miller
>
I guess the Pyramids were built with no technology right? Norman, study
something before you comment. These cities had irigation, something the Moors
taught Europeans, and industrialization. Why don't you define industrialization
to make me understand what it really is?

Peace, :-)
Chad J Glover
glovercj@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu   or   glovercj@dunx1.ocs.drexel.edu 
Drexel University Software Testing Lab
"Give a Man a Fish, you Feed him for a Day,
Teach a man to Fish, you Feed him for a Lifetime."
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
From: zursch@whizkid.wpd.sgi.com (Jeffrey B. Zurschmeide)
Subject: Re: WHITE CHRISTMAS
Keywords: WHITE CHRISTMAS
Reply-To: zursch@whizkid.wpd.sgi.com (Jeffrey B. Zurschmeide)
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
Distribution: global
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 23:55:32 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.175258.22200@seq.uncwil.edu>, william carter franklin writes:

>Muhammed Ali made a fool of himself on the Donahue show in 1978.
>He was arguing that the country was implicitly racist, saying
>"Look at that White Jesus on the wall!"
>The only Jesus on the wall was a Jew

You know, the classic "Jesus" portraits I've seen don't look like any Jew
I've ever seen. (Ashkenazic or Sephardic).  They look like a somewhat 
skinnier version of me. They look pretty gosh-darned WASPy. 

>(That's "hymie" to all of you Jesse Jackson RAINBOW-SOULJAh's)

Tut tut, William, the Aryan supremacists are refraining from overtly 
inflammatory statements these days....you'd better follow suit. 

>Now so many of you make the same bufoonal error here.
>Let us not forget that Christmas celebrates the birth of the
>Jesus of Nazareth. We are all sorry that he could not be black,
>but God decided he couldn't be white either.

So if God decided he couldn't be white, why does he always look like 
his dad was from London and his mom from Paris?

The gripe is not with God or Jesus, but with the people who continue 
to portray him in my image, and yours, to the exclusion of other 
possible images (including even, the one he actually wore on the planet.)  

>But then again, what IS black and white?

Not much, biologically, but in this country, a great deal if you're taught
that the picture on the wall is the only begotten son of the Almighty 
creator of the universe.  

>Muhammed Ali had an excuse: too many blows to the noggin.
>What's your excuse?

I don't need one. 

JZ



Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american,alt.politics.correct
From: robart@agora.rain.com (Joe Bob)
Subject: Re: A raspberry to Kolodney
Organization: a gora
Distribution: world 
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 11:15:11 GMT

In article <1jl2ijINN1j6@morrow.stanford.edu> HF.GTD@forsythe.stanford.edu (Gabrielle Daniels) writes:
>When I see a shirt which is assembled in Haiti, or the Dominican
>Republic, I may want it, but I think about those lives making less
>than a dollar a day so I can pay $25.00 for the shirt.


  Yes, no doubt you would be a lot happier if they would just quit
their jobs and do without.
From: johnson@whitewater.chem.wisc.edu (Art Johnson)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: To Kolodney and Frank
Date: 24 Jan 93 22:56:35 GMT
Article-I.D.: pslu1.1993Jan24.225635.15886
Distribution: usa
Organization: Physical Sciences Lab, UW-Madison

In article <1jkuckINNrv5@morrow.stanford.edu> HF.GTD@forsythe.stanford.edu  
(Gabrielle Daniels) writes:

     [...lots of stuff deleted...]

> Do you hear
> me?  I refuse as a black feminist and a Buddhist to venerate a white
> guy on the cross, or a cross he is supposedly bearing.
> ..
     Just want to say something here, Gabrielle. Are you at all familiar  
with the Ethiopian Orthodox Christian church? Check out their iconography  
(and also that of the Russian Orthodox church) some time. Sometime last  
year there was a nice photo spread/article in the NY Times Magazine about  
the variety of religious expression in the black American community. The  
article discussed a big Ethiopian Orthodox parish in NYC, in which most of  
the parishioners are black American converts. It was pretty cool.

Arthur Johnson
johnson@whitewater.chem.wisc.edu  
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american,soc.culture.asian.american
From: vagarwal@dis9002.shearson.com (Virendra Agarwal)
Subject: Re: Exaggerations of Ethnic Characteristics Re: What does Arthur Hu
Followup-To: soc.culture.african.american,soc.culture.asian.american
Organization: Lehman Brothers
	<1993Jan12.071727.26474@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 19:45:28 GMT


   dtwei@acsu.buffalo.edu (Ning Wang) writes:
   |First of all, I agree that it was very un-PC (new word!) of me to claim
   |that the jews "control" the media/government, but they certainly are having
   |it a lot better than the other minority groups (even some majority groups)..

   PC or otherwise, it is a significant exaggeration to go from "jewish
   people appear to have greater influence in some areas and on some issues
   than would be expected from their population" to "jewish people control
   the government and media".  Such exaggerations tend to play into fear
   mongering which tends to be detrimental to the group in question.  I am
   sure you are aware of the suspected limiting quotas placed on asian people
   in college admissions; the same type of thing, only more explicit, was
   done to jewish people when they were perceived as "taking over the
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	When was that ? Are you referring to HITLER days ? I guess JEWS can not
	make you forget that. But you do want to forget what was done to NATIVES
	of this country and what is still being done to BLACKS in SOUTH AFRICA.
 
  colleges".

 
--
---------------------------------------------------------------
V. Agarwal
---------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
From: frankp@galena.bellcore.com (Frank Perez)
Subject: Re: Racists oppose Afro-Cuban appointee to State Dept.
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Date: 27 Jan 93 20:02:58 GMT
Keywords: Mario Baeza, Assistant Secretary of State for Latin-American Affairs

kautaj@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (The Wise Man from the East) writes:

>In article <moJ1XB1w165w@netlink.cts.com> galan@netlink.cts.com (Greg Gross) writes:
>>kautaj@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (The Wise Man from the East) writes:
>>
>>> In article <084yXB1w165w@netlink.cts.com> galan@netlink.cts.com (Greg Gross) 

>>In a nation [Cuba] whose population is 60 percent black....

This is incorrect. According to page 581 of the 1992 Britannica World Data 
Book, the ethnic composition of Cuba is as follows:

   white 66.0%
   mixed (mulatto) 21.9%
   black 12.0%
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: Thurgood Marshall Dies
Date: 25 Jan 93 04:55:27 GMT
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago

[talk.abortion,misc.legal]
In article <0cn3y3f@rpi.edu> cookc@aix.rpi.edu (rocker) writes:
>No political statements here, just sincere regret at the passing of a
>tireless champion of human rights.
>
>He will be missed.
>
>               -rocker
>
>"What's _wrong_ with me???  I'm OLD!!"
>  -Justice Marshall, at a press conference announcing his retirement
-- 
ted frank                     | thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu 
standard disclaimers          | void where prohibited
the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american,talk.politics.misc,soc.culture.usa
From: kevinc@sequent.com (kevinc)
Subject: Re: NLNS: African-American Voting Dilemmas
Organization: Sequent Computer Systems, Inc.
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 93 15:38:28 GMT

In article <1993Jan20.182254.37604@r-node.pci.on.ca> ndallen@r-node.pci.on.ca (Nigel Allen) writes:
>Michelle Parks,  The Student Insurgent
>
>The Student Insurgent can be reached at University of
>Oregon, EMU Suite 1, Eugene, OR 97403; (503) 346-3716,
>bghoop@oregon.uoregon.edu.

  Eugene?  Come on.  Real problem with cultural diversity there.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american,soc.culture.asian.american
From: vagarwal@dis9002.shearson.com (Virendra Agarwal)
Subject: Re: What does Arthur Hu mean to *me*
Organization: Lehman Brothers
	<1993Jan12.032059.10582@cbnewse.cb.att.com>
	<C0q41K.FDD@acsu.buffalo.edu>
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 19:16:46 GMT


   But the other thing I wanted to mention was that, like Clare Chu said, I wans't
   COMPLAINING, I was simply impressed by the influence of the jews.. Considering
   how hard they had it a century ago, I can only hope the Asian Americans (and
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	As if African Americans had it made !! They are still going thru' in 
	SOUTH AFRICA and being CONDONED !!
	Who was responsible for atrocities on JEWS ?  --- Europeans
	Who has to pay the price for it --- Middle Easterners

   others) can follow their example..
           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	Jews can DO it because they are EUROPEAN. You can try to follow their
	example but you CAN'T be EUROPEANS, hence unsuccessful !!



--
---------------------------------------------------------------
V. Agarwal
---------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
From: nmiller@starbase.trincoll.edu (norman miller)
Subject: Re: The White Man's Burden.
Organization: Trinity College, Hartford, CT.
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 17:07:06 GMT

Here's where we stand: I wrote this to Chad Glover (I add a line that
was lost somewhere:

>>Industrialization means
>>nowadays to an "advanced" kind of social organization that depends on the
>>existence of a myriad of special tools, huge amounts of power, etc.: the
>>kinds of things, in short, that are purportedly taught at Mr. Glover's
>>institution.  The Pyramids were great works, as were the irrigation
>>system in ancient China, flush toilets in Crete, etc.  But industriali-
>>zation?  Try early 19th Century Britain.

To which Chad replies:

>I guess the Pyramids were built with no technology right? Norman, study
>something before you comment. These cities had irigation, something the Moors
>taught Europeans, and industrialization. Why don't you define industrialization

>to make me understand what it really is?
>

Technology, of course; industrialization, no.  I don't know what to add
without getting into a long long sociological debate.  I'll say this:
on the face of it, i.e. if you stick with conventional dictionary defini-
tions, a case can easily be made out to support Chad's position.  When I
said (above) "means nowadays.." I was alluding to the usages of modern
social scientists and historians who see industrialization as something
qualitatively different from an earlier system of production (hence indus-
trial _revolution_).  Was there technology before that time?  Naturally:
spinning wheels, windmills, levers, etc.  But pre-industrial societies
organized production either on a small scale or--where huge numbers of
people were employed (the Pyramids, canals, etc.)--with comparatively
little division of labor.  Finally, the key feature of an industrialized
society is the large-scale manufacture of _tools and machines_ rather than
consumer products.  Only when you have factories that produce pumps and
generators can the rest of the economy develop rapidly.  I offer as a closing
example that of IBM, which built its first PC from _off-the-shelf_ parts.

This was too long.  Sorry.

Norman Miller
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Re: To Kolodney and Frank
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 21:18:49 GMT

In article <1jkuckINNrv5@morrow.stanford.edu> HF.GTD@forsythe.stanford.edu (Gabrielle Daniels) writes:
>The great scientist George Washington Carver helped save thousands
>of acres of arable land in the South by telling farmers black and
>white to sow peanuts.  Peanuts put nutrients back into the ground. I
>don't think Carver found out about this by accident.

Of course not.  He employed hard work, good research, and a little bit
of luck.

>I can see the superciliousness just seeping out from you chumps like
>Frank and Michorowski (like Alice Walker said, no wonder folks
>believe the Poles don't have no sense cause the Black Goddess, the
>Virgin of Poland, can't tell her wayward children ANYTHING-see "The
>Temple of My Familiar").  I see this chest thumping "Oh, WE didn't
>do anything" as just weaseling, weaseling your ancestors about their
>responsibility for 60 million lives lost and YOURS, which is
>eradicating racism.  

Don't be looking at my ancestors regarding the slave trade.  My
ancestors were just trying to keep themselves from getting massacred
by Cossacks while living peacefully in environmentally sound shtetls.

Slavery was long gone before anyone in my family had even heard of
America.

>Well, seriously, fuck you guys.  You are some pathetic creatures.
>No wonder we are so divided in this country.

Well, with attitudes like that, yeah.

>Lastly, for all you Peninsulans, Andrew Hacker is coming to
>Printers' Inc. Bookstore, Palo Alto on January 26 at 8:00 p.m.  This
>is another "white brother" I respect and I'm going to be there. If
>yall saw the December "Essence" roundtable discussion of what white
>guys actually think about brothers, he was the older white guy with
> some sense.  His book is now in paperback.

His book is filled with all sorts of complete statistical misinterpretations
and fallacies, but that's a different issue.
-- 
ted frank                     | thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu 
standard disclaimers          | void where prohibited
the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637
From: taylor@hojo.larc.nasa.gov (Barney Taylor)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: MALCOLM X: From An African-American
Date: 28 Jan 1993 16:54:30 GMT
Organization: NASA Langley Research Center, Hampton, VA  USA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: hojo.larc.nasa.gov

In article <1993Jan27.154017.6580@netnews.noc.drexel.edu>, glovercj@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu writes:

|> I can agree these men are leaders in a sense, but these are not the public
|> figure leaders and heroes we once knew in Dr. King, and Brother Malcolm. Tyhe
|> media has played a major part in covering up what little leaders we have, but
|> in the same sense they have displayed the leaders that we don't neccessary want
|> to be our leaders(like Jesse Jackson, Michael Jackson, Michael Jordan, Coloniel
|> Powell, etc.) We need leaders that are speaking out for the liberation of
|> Africans everywhere, not just writing it in books, or excelling in sports.
|> 

The people I meantioned earlier not only write books but speak out across the world.
Check the names out. Go to some of your contacts and inquire about the next time they
will be in your area, and attend. You will be surprised to find out our leaders,
true leaders (not fakers), are not dead.

Barney,

_________________________________________
NASA Computer Scientist / Software Engineer

The previous comments do not represent the
opinions of my employer or the government in
any part.

Hetep
-------------------------------------------
From: tzs@stein.u.washington.edu (Tim Smith)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: cultural bias at shoney's underlies chairmans's departure
Date: 23 Jan 1993 21:12:23 GMT
Organization: University of Washington School of Law, Class of '95
NNTP-Posting-Host: stein.u.washington.edu

Where is Shoney's?  The article said that it was the third largest chain,
yet I've never seen one in California or Washington (or along I-5 in Oregon).
Are there any out here in the West, perhaps under a different name?

--Tim Smith
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
From: sieh@panix.com (Nutella)
Subject: Re: A bushel of raspberries for Kolodney
Organization: Panix Public Access Internet & Unix, NYC
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 19:57:24 GMT

In article <1jnhq7INN4ro@morrow.stanford.edu> HF.GTD@forsythe.stanford.edu 
(Gabrielle Daniels) writes:
>I dont buy this premise that if Indians or Africans had the
>technology, they would have overrun Europe.  Where did this bankrupt
>ideology come from?  Something from Harold Bloom, perhaps?  So it
>was better us (white folks) than they (people of color)?  This is
>bad intellectualism, bad politics and bad culture.  This lets off
>white supremacy too easy.

Just a quick comment here.  I found the above to be rather ironic
because from Larry Kolodney, I see the theme of how people are people
no matter what the skin color/ethnicity.  In other words, people being
humans are governed by the same sort of behavior, emotions that every
human being has.  That is why he is basically saying that there's no
reason to believe that Indians or Africans would not exhibit the same
sort of actions that Europeans have.  He's saying the opposite you
accuse him of, which is that Europeans, Indians (native), Africans
are the same and no one is better than one another.  You on the other
hand, seem to have been arguing that there is a very fundamental 
difference between the groups.

Your failing to accept Kolodney's premise also implicitly denies the
idea that people are people no matter who/what they are.  Of course,
you may believe that to be true that ethnically different people do
exhibit fundamentally different behavior patterns but I think that's
hard to argue except on a narrow basis.

>[whole lot of stuff deleted]

Now back to your regularly scheduled Daniels and Kolodney show.

-- 
//Lui Sieh		|How seldom we weigh our neighbor in the same
Mail: sieh@panix.com 	|balance with ourselves.  -- Thomas A. Kempis
_____________________________________________________________________
Disclaimer: These are my opinions...but others may share them as well
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american
From: apdolan@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (dolan andrew)
Subject: black women and white men
Summary: black women and white men
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 02:59:02 GMT
Keywords: black women and white men

Am interested in the comments of Barbara Vaughan above
about the increasing trend of black woman/white man
relationships.Have gathered together some books:

"Black and White Mixed Marriages"
     by Ernest Porterfield
 "Marriage Across the Color Line"
     by Larsson [1965]
 :Different Worlds"
    _ teenage interracial dating
 Interrace magazine:
   has a lot of articles about
   interracial marriage, childrearing.etc
   not much about dating but had some personal ads
   and ads for interracial dating services.

 Would be interested in hearing about anyother books,
 articles, etc. If anyone wants to start a dialogue
 or has some tales to tell, especially concerning
 dating services, support groups, church groups,
 etc. please write.

       Andy    apdolan@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu