HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: carlson@ab24.larc.nasa.gov (Ann Carlson)
Subject: Some Call It Love 
Keywords: Poetry
Organization: NASA Langley Research Center, Hampton, VA  USA
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 17:56:48 GMT

I saw this poem in the Back River Review**, written by my friend and 
co-faculty member at St Leo.  It reminded me of people who claim to
"love the sinner, but hate the sin."


			SOME CALL IT LOVE
		
		Some call it love who cheat and lie
		And speak of life as old loves die
		Killed in the silence of deceit
		In secret places where they meet
		To sacrifice the family we
		And rhapsodize the you and me
			Some call it love

		Some call it love who offer up
		Dependence as a loving cup
		To willing lips who drink away
		All trust, respect, integrity
		And having drunk, the loved ones find
		Not wings of truth, but lies that bind
			Some call it love

		Some call it love who patronize
		With flattering words and empty eyes
		Each person knows but cannot tell
		That they are used and used full well
		As pawns in a divisive game
		The common bond between is shame
		They call it by a different name...

			Some call it love
    					
					--Sarah C. Kennedy

-- 
**  Saint Leo College Back River Review, summer 1992, Volume V, Issue 2,
    Publisher: Leonard Freedman, Director Tidewater Center.  No Copyright
    asserted.


*************************************************      
*Dr. Ann B. Carlson (carlson@ab24.larc.nasa.gov)*       O .
*MS 366                                         *         o  _///_ //
*NASA Langley Research Center                   *          <`)=  _<<
*Hampton, VA 23681-0001                         *             \\\  \\
*************************************************
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 19:07:52 EDT
From: Tim Bieling <QAA@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Gay Homophobia (was Re: Too straight looking to be gay???) (was re
 <1992Aug21.183803.45@microsoft.com> <1992Aug24.225311.29178@nwnexus.WA.COM>
 <1992Aug25.150555.24747@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>

In article <1992Aug25.150555.24747@cbnewsl.cb.att.com>, ry@cbnewsl.cb.att.com
(ryerson.schwark) says:
>Well, there you have it.  Masculinity is next to cowardice.  I'd always
>wondered why I wasn't considered a really butch number, now I know.  I
>guess I'll have to work on my quivering fear of what strayt people will
>think about me so I can pass the masculinity test lest I be tainted by
>the horrible grossness of being considered effeminate.  I shall spend my
>long fearful days watching my behavior lest I do one thing that might
>upset somebody, or cause them to question.  My whole life will revolve
>around other people's opinions of me.  I'm sure I'll be miserable, but
>hey, at least I'll be masculine and accepted.
>
>I wish I were a lesbian, then I could be effeminate and brave, rather
>than masculine and cowardly.

Great comment!  First tho - being mostly a lurker, I was definitely NOT
one of those (ficticious) e-mails to him (it?).  I'm hardly afraid to
post to motss (other than the "psu" symdrome :)).

The guy's got a serious problem (BS, that is).  I used to have such an
internalized homophobia myself, but after a fantastic drag show (and my
first time "out") some 8 years ago, I learned real quick about how
diverse people were.  It was really an eye opening experience as well..:)

Anyway, back to Slob, or Bob, or whatever his name is - he's just an
afraid little child inside.  I've read through most of the old threads
and that theme comes through loud and clear.  I should feel sorry for
him, because at one time I went through the "I'm not like them, ick"
age, but I don't - he should know better.

-Tim [who's really sick of closet "straight queers"]
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: cbe@unlinfo.unl.edu (cbe)
Subject: Re: adoption
Organization: University of Nebraska - Lincoln
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 02:08:51 GMT

pmele@ldgo.columbia.edu (phil mele) writes:


>i heard on the radio that time magazine did a story re adoption and woody
>allen / mia farrow.  one of the points being that as an unmarried couple
>living apart who were allowed to adopt children, a president is set that
>should make it easier for gay people to adopt.

I doubt the present setting president (he is a bit of a dog, after 
all) would approve at all.  It would not follow all the quailing 
precedents set by the Reflublican party for family values.

Colburn Eigen                       H|u> = E|u>

With apologies to all canines....
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Subject: Re: Is Pat Robertson for real??
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 92 13:34:23 GMT


In article <1992Aug28.131803.22278@cbnews.cb.att.com>
ran@cbnews.cb.att.com (Robert A.  Neinast) writes:

>In article <1992Aug28.001657.12326@macc.wisc.edu>,
anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:

>> In article <1992Aug27.195209.157316@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu>
>> dh0a@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (DONALD L.  HARDY) writes:

>>> The complete text of a hate letter from the self styled "Public Advocate of
>>> the United States."

>> Please make sure the subject line indicates clearly that
>> it's hate mail you're posting; many people do not want to
>> see that bilge here at all.  It would be considerate to put
>> a warning on it if you really intend to post it.

>Doesn't having the name "Pat Robertson" in the subject line
>pretty much constitute a warning of hateful contents?

Why, no, it doesn't.  Consider:

   Subject: Pat Robertson Dies in Mystery Motel
   Subject: Pat Robertson and Jimmy Swaggert in Love Tryst
   Subject: Messiah Returns: Pat Robertson Fried
   Subject: Pat Robertson Has Lockjaw
   Subject: Queer Nation Recruits Pat Robertson
   Subject: Robertson Dejected by Flock's Rebuff
   Subject: Pat Robertson is Really Elvis on Pulpit
   Subject: Flying Saucer Abducts Preacher Robertson

<> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
<> In practice, there is.  -- Muffy Barkocy
-- 
Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin
Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson
NeXTmail w/attachments: anderson@yak.macc.wisc.edu  Bitnet: anderson@wiscmacc
Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: pc@linus.mitre.org (Penny Chase)
Subject: Re: eating at Furr's
Organization: Research Computer Facility, The MITRE Corporation, Bedford MA
	<1992Sep3.075036.23776@reed.edu>
	<1992Sep3.132755.15573@cis.ohio-state.edu>
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 18:53:23 GMT

In article <1992Sep3.132755.15573@cis.ohio-state.edu>
amz@iguana.cis.ohio-state.edu (Arnold M Zwicky) writes:

   are conferences cruisy for heterosexuals?  oh *my GOD*, yes!  read the
   comic novels of academic life by david lodge for some hint.  plenty of
   short-term pickups, and also a surprising number of "conference
   relationships"

   (do conferences in other scientific fields have general parties, with
   dancing?)

When I was a graduate student in the History of Science (around 15
years ago), and regularly attended the annual meetings of the American
Historical Association and the History of Science Society, I found
this to be the case.  There was always a tension between wanting to go
to the cocktail parties to "network" (crucial in a difficult job
market) and wanting to steer clear from them because they were hetero
cruising grounds. 

I've found AI meetings somewhat different.  In part because I tend to
hang out with friends and ignore the cruising, but also in part
because the activities that go on are different and less formal.
There are lots of parties with dancing (with all kinds of couples or
just groups dancing together) and people don't seem to be bothered by
any of it.

Ah, but then there was the time when the HSS met in Toronto at the
same time that the Walt Whitman Society was meeting and a party that
had started out for historians of medieval and early modern science
metamorphosed into a motss affair (when the Whitmanians and others
joined in). It was quite an experience--as a new grad student--to see
which notables in one's field were lesbigay.

	Penny
--
UUCP:  { ... }!linus!pc 
INTERNET:  pc@mitre.org
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: bobsarv@microsoft.com (Bob Sarver)
Subject: Re: Question about Microsoft Corp.
Date: 27 Aug 92 16:59:53 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corp.



/> How gay-frendly is the envvironment [at Microsoft]?
/> Any comments will be appreciated.

/(jakec)
/well, i'd rather work for IBM than get stuck next to Bob Sarver.


I'd rather you work there, too, Jake.  It's good for the price of 
my stock.
Xref: sparky soc.motss:37523 talk.politics.misc:42780 ca.politics:7239
From: lfoard@Turing.ORG (Lawrence C. Foard)
Newsgroups: soc.motss,talk.politics.misc,ca.politics
Subject: Re: PLEASE VOTE!!!
Date: 29 Aug 92 20:49:39 GMT
Organization: The Turing Project, Charlottesville Virginia.

In article <11936@optilink.UUCP> cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:
>
>Amazing the nonsense that gets taught in school these days, isn't it?
>This piece of trash was originally posted to soc.motss (of course).
>It exemplifies why liberalism = fascism.

Didn't anyone tell you not to floss between your ears?

Unfortunitly I doubt this gross distortion was as honest as mear stupidity.

What you cut out of the letter explained why human rights was more important
than economics. 

Now please go fuck yourself.
-- 
>>Unix/C Contract worker available 5 years C/unix work experience<<  ______
Available for Telecommuting/Travel and contracts on the T Line       \    /
in the Boston MA area. Send me e-mail for a copy of my Resume.        \  /
       -- VWIS 508-793-9568 (2400 baud), Linux support BBS.--          \/
From: mattm@Apple.COM (Matthew Melmon)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Prejudice vs Preference
Date: 1 Sep 92 19:37:52 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, CA

anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:

>I've started a new thread here, arising from on-going debate
>with Alan.  I'm including some earlier remarks, but basically
>I'm making a fresh start.

La plus ca change...

Mr. Anderson:
>I take as my starting text something Alan said in an ealier
>posting, <vanyel.715024092@camelot>:

>>Personally, I don't like "nelly" or "macho" behavior.  My
>>*reason* is because the kind of people I've encountered who
>>utilize these behaviors have struck me as vain, superficial,
>>and out to attract as much attention as possible.

>I'll simplify this remark to:

>>I don't like nelly people because all the ones I've met are
>>vain.

This is a reasonable reduction.  You do, however, further reduce
it in your subsequent remarks to:

   I don't like nelly people because they are vain.

That is a distortion of the original remark.  You are building
a straw man argument. To whit -

>A lot turns on whether this is a class statement or an
>instance.

>I claim it is a class statement.  It says: nelly people are
>vain.

He certainly did NOT say that.  It is not a 'class' statement,
and your, yourself, quoted the original words.  You have built
the rest of your thread upon your own misrepresentation of 
your adversary's comments - and are, in effect, arguing with
yourself.  For effect, one might say.

You are in essence maintaing that each new individual must be
treated as a *completely* new experience.  That to use personality
traits which are readily apparent in the new individual against
him or her is invalid and prejudiced.  The following reason is,
in your mind, unreasonable:

  1.  Every nelly queen that I have met is vain
  2.  I do not like vain people
  3.  I do not choose to associate with people I do not like
  4.  I do not know 'Joe,' but he exhibits the same patterns
      of behavior I have come to expect from nelly queens.
  5.  Joe is a nelly queen
  6.  Through 1,2,3 - I will not associate with Joe

I would maintain the above is a perfectly reasonable thought process.
You, per your arguments, would not.  I cannot speak for Alan, but
I think he, too, would agree with the above scenario.  The positions
seem clear, and a new thread will, at best, result in agreement to
disagree.  At worst, it will continue in much the same vein - one
of blatant distortions and half-truths.

Melmac the Unmentionable
From: John_Graves@cellbio.duke.edu
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Insults
Date: 26 Aug 92 13:20:11 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Duke University Medical Center

In article <l9mjuqINN96v@mizar.usc.edu> adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson)
writes:

John Graves writes:
>> Explanation and education, not insult and ostracism should be the 
>> order of the day.
>
>Fuck off, asshole.
>
>Arne
>

I believe it is better to be inclusive, civilized, pleasant, and caring than
exclusive, angry, self-righteous, blaming, and rude.  

I believe it is better to reach out even in the face of oppression.

I believe it is better to love than to hate.

I believe these things are better because I have experienced hate and love,
caring and rejection, rudeness and pleasantry and because I have found that I
feel good when being treated well.  I expect that others feel similarly.  I
know that not being treated well can cause resentment and anger.  I believe
that I must demand that I not be oppressed and even fight vigorously against
oppression, but I do not believe that I do my cause or that of other gay men,
bisexuals, Lesbians or other oppressed sexual minority (or majority - as women
are oppressed) any good by resorting to name calling or other activities
designed to separate us into the correct and the incorrect.  

If you wish to not take any responsibility for making the world a better place,
you could not have stated it any better than by rejecting education and
explanation.

John Allan Graves
Unitarian Universalist Minister

(Interestingly enough, my High School colors were Maroon and Grey)
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Ending the military band
Date: 28 Aug 92 14:27:30 GMT
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison


In article <wood.715006427@jfred> wood@siemens.com.  (Jim
Wood) writes:

>brent@syacus.acus.oz.au (Brent Davies) writes:

>>anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:

>>>buckmr@aix.rpi.edu (Ron Buckmire) writes:
>>>>Scott Hays writes on Gaynet:
>>>>               Opponents Expect Military Band
>>>>                On Homosexuals to Fall Soon

>>>Let's trumpet *that* news around before somebody tries to
>>>horn in on our act; we couldn't have a clash of symbols,
>>>after all.  Are you sure this wasn't on ClariNet?

>>Oboe-y, more puns!  Our own military band may fall very bassoon, if we're
>>lucky.  Proponents of the band are now in a real piccolo (see my related
>>bugle-post), to which I say, "Tuba bad!  You can't get rid of us flutes
>>*that* easily!"  Thanks to the courage of a certain (womyn) senator,
>>the dogs aren't even getting thrown a trombone.

>From one pianist to another pianist, how about a little
>sax?  :-)

Those pianists, they're always playing on the cracks!  But
to continue this trilling little roman a clef, I think it's
a pretty sharp tune these punsters are singing, a Mary band
indeed (well, maybe we should soft-pedal Mary, lest someone
Sousa).  One of my favorite features in a sax score is the
repeat signs; I mean, they're flat-out something to get
keyed up about, ya know.  Just be sure to remember da capo,
n'est-ce pas?

<> Military justice is to justice what military music is to
<> music.
<> -- Groucho Marx
-- 
Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin
Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson
NeXTmail w/attachments: anderson@yak.macc.wisc.edu  Bitnet: anderson@wiscmacc
Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888
From: fjvwing@cs.vu.nl (FJ!!)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Sim? status?
Date: 29 Aug 92 14:31:03 GMT

thaaang@cwis.unomaha.edu (John Dorrance) writes:

>Jess/Sim Andraberson.

By Mavis (*), this sounds absolutely de-gorgeous. I think it is time
for another conceptual marriage, if only to keep the word Andraberson
alive.

I promise, if ever I write a sentien program a la Hal or Zen (**), I'll
find a name for it that acronyms to Andraberson. That'll probably take
longer than writing the program.
								FJ!!

(*) I'm not calling John Mavis, I'm exclaiming to Mavis, Godess Of
Synchronicity and Parking Spaces. Yeah, I'v been hanging out with Harry
& Daffodil again.
(**) Who recognizes that one?
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath)
Subject: Arresting Behavior
Organization: The Cat Factory
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 20:30:16 GMT


I've been monitoring soc.motss for a week and, to my amazement, it seems
I'm the only person here who saw the debut of the TV show "Arresting
Behavior." Either that, or no one sees any need to comment on it, which
boggles the mind.

The show pretends(?) to be a documentary that follows real police officers
around both on and off duty.  It includes their families and personal
relationships.

The debut program spent much of its time on the issue of a pair of lesbian
officers who were also lovers.  The subject was handled openly, explicitly
and, IMHO, in a very gay-positive manner.  Dealing with that subject in
that manner on the debut program made quite a strong statement, IMHO.

I'd think someone else here would at least like to give them an attaboy or
two.

Comments?

The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com)
Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp                   Turn the rascals out!
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.   (310) 450-9111, x2483     No incumbents in '92!
Santa Monica, CA  90405
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: vanyel@camelot.bradley.edu (Alan Williams)
Subject: Re: Too straight looking to be gay
Organization: Bradley University
Distribution: usa
Date:  2 Sep 92 04:06:04 GMT

In <1992Sep2.032250.2557@tc.cornell.edu> shore@theory.TC.Cornell.EDU (Melinda Shore) writes:
>In article <vanyel.715396480@camelot> vanyel@camelot.bradley.edu (Alan Williams) writes:
>>I don't like "nelly" behavior.  Period.  I've received nothing on here to
>>suggest that I *should*--only flames for not thinking like *you*.  
>Oh piffle, poophead.  If it were a simple matter of
>dislike, you wouldn't feel compelled to share it with
>80,000 people.  Why you think that your likes and dislikes
>should be interesting to any of us eludes me completely;
>either you think it's *really*, *really* *important* that
>all of us know that you, Alan Williams, don't like nelly
>queens, or you think this fascinating tidbit has broader,
>more general implications.

Why don't you look back and see how this started?  I brought up said
dislike as part of a discussion with Bob Sarver.  You arrogant assholes
chose to attack me for it.

Why don't you get your fucking head out of the sand and try to follow a
conversation for a change?

--

 _______________ Alan Williams | vanyel@camelot.bradley.edu _________________
 \/ "Are you afraid I'm jeopardizing my secret identity, Ned?  I don't     \/
     *have* one, remember?"  --The Black Condor, _Black Condor_ #5
From: mara@panix.com (Mara Chibnik)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Relative stupidities
Date: 2 Sep 92 19:58:28 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: (getting there)

ry@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (ryerson.schwark) writes:

 >You do *NOT* have the right not to get
 >called stupid for being stupid.

You (meaning me, meaning Ry, meaning all of us here or anywhere
else) don't have the right not to get called stupid even when we're
not.  It is for the readership generally to decide who is making
points and who isn't, and whose namecalling is in response to 
justifying provocation and whose is gratuitous (or the weak response
of someone lacking more persuasive arguments).

Ry continues:

 >Either defend your position, bow out of the discussion, or
 >admit your wrong, but QUIT WHINING that you're not allowed to 
 >have your opinion when it has been demonstrated here that you're
 >allowed to have your opinion.

Unfortunately, it is almost impossible to convey to someone who is
whining what it is that they're doing that attracts that
description.  I've tried in other newsgroups without success, and I
invite soc.motss generally to offer a description of what makes a
whine that might be useful in discouraging someone from doing it.



-- 

  Mara Chibnik
  mara@panix.com                Life is too important to be taken seriously.
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: bobsarv@microsoft.com (Bob Sarver)
Subject: Re: Insults
Date: 28 Aug 92 01:39:42 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corp.



(graves)
> >What a *good* idea!  I can readily imagine getting a gander
> >at this self-nominated paragon of accomodation with the
> >enemy and thinking, "Butch?!?  Who *does* he think he's
> >kidding?!"  Those ones with the persecution complexes are
> >always the last to know.
>
> Enemy, who's the enemy.

Who's the enemy?

Why, anyone Arne *says* is the enemy, of course.  


(adolphso)
/Homophobes and anyone who helps perpetuate the homophobia
/in our culture.

Of course, its her royal highness Arne who gets to decide who's a homophobe
and what is homophobia.  Don't you *dare* call anyone a homophobe without
consulting her royal court first.



/(graves)
/> If we're talking about homophobes, then as Pogo was made say,
/> "We have met the enemy and he is us."

/(adolphso)
/Bullshit.

Truth hurts when it hits home, bud.




/(graves)
/> Bob is just as much manipulated as poor whites who were taught to 
/> treat blacks poorly.  

/(adolphso)
/Give me a fuckin' break.  I hold everyone individually responsible
/for his/her attitudes and behavior and I don't give a flying fuck
/what their background is.  A racist is a racist is a racist.  I
/don't give a shit for the racist's motivations for his/her racism.
/A homophobe is a homophobe is homophobe...

And a clueless queen is a clueless queen is a clueless queen . . .



(graves)
> We do our cause a disservice by taking a personal view of heterosexism 
> and homophobia instead of helping those who come to us with sincere 
> differences but who are within our community or wish to be.

(adolphso)
/Disservice?  How?  I see no reason why I should embrace any slug
/off the street just because he's gay.  I don't owe homophobes,
/straight *or* gay, anything.

Um, Arne, I wouldn't let you embrace me if you were my *mother* . . .








Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: bobsarv@microsoft.com (Bob Sarver)
Subject: Re: Gay Homophobia (was Re: Too straight looking to be gay???) (was re: UNGAY GAY)
Date: 24 Aug 92 00:24:33 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corp.



/(pentangl)
/Actually, anyone who decides to post on soc.motss (or on any other
/newsgroup for that matter) MUST meet one criteria. They had better
/be prepared to back up thier assertions. If you are a poor debater,
/you don't stand a chance.



That's only fair.
From: joelp@cs.man.ac.uk (Joel Parthemore || Pharos Project)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Shakers
Date: 28 Aug 92 21:06:53 GMT

Rod (Williams) (rjwill6@PacBell.COM) writes:

>I'm surprised that no one has reminded Bob Sarver that all those
>nice, considerate, well-behaved Shakers are dead.

Waaaaah!!  No they're not!

And, as Christian groups go, I think the Shakers are about as cool as you can
get, however much *some* people may misrepresent them:  an image of God that
includes both masculine and feminine; an early belief in equality of the
genders; and an earnest, idealistic drive to build the commonwealth of Heaven
(read, build a better world) here and now.

But wait, I've said this already....

Joel,
      piddled about the time lag between here and the States

>rod williams -=- pacific bell -=- san francisco -=- rjwill6@pacbell.com