HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: M00209@MBVM.Mitre.Org
Subject: Re: 200-mile rail network under study in Vermont.
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, Bedford MA 01730
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 16:17:56 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.055007.6259@cco.caltech.edu>
pvmason@cco.caltech.edu (Peter V. Mason) writes:
 
>
>Technically, the Central Vermont doesn't go to Burlington either.
>You have to board the train in Essex Junction, which is good deal
>further from Burlington than Montpelier Junction is from Montpelier.
>I suppose there must be a connection from Vermont Railway (nee
>Rutland Railroad, but I don't know where it is.
 
Sorry to have to correct you on this one, but the brank from Essex Junction to
Burlington is and always was Central Vermont (or a predecessor thereof).  In
fact the original main line of the then-Vermont Central Railroad was from
Windsor to Burlington.  The route from Essex Junction to Saint Albans (later
extended farther north) was built by the Vermont and Canada Railroad.  For most
of its lifetime, the CV ran shuttle passenger trains to and from Burlington,
connecting with main line trains at Essex Junction. ("I hope in Hell his soul
may dwell who first invented Essex Junction!")  One of these trains carried a
through sleeping car between Burlington and Boston which survived to (approx.
date - the exact date is at home) the fall of 1933, a few months after all the
other shuttle service had been replaced by busses.  A sole daily mixed train
operating between Burlington and Cambridge Junction ran until 1938.  For a
complete history of the Central Vermont, there is an excellent six-volume
history available called "Central Vermont - A Yankee Tradition".  For a thumb-
nail vesion, send $6.00 to Mass Bay Railroad Enthusiasts P.O. Box 8136 Ward
Hill MA 01835 and I'll send you my writeup for the trip we ran there this
summer.
 
>While we're at it I was told several years ago the Vermont Railway
>made most of their money running boxcars on other lines.  anybody
>know anything about this?
>
Are you possibly thinking of the Lamoille Valley Railroad?  I don't recall the
Vermont Railway doing this, but they may well have.
 
 
Len Bachelder        Archives Committee, Boston and Maine RR Historical Society
MITRE Corp.           Secretary, Massachusetts Bay Railroad Enthusiasts
Bedford MA 01730      Member, 470 Railroad Club
<M00209@mbvm.mitre.org>
 
"Amazing love, how can it be that Thou, my God, should'st die for me!"
                                                 - Charles Wesley
From: vek@allegra.att.com (Van Kelly)
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Subject: Re: Any real benefit to monorails?
Date: 9 Sep 92 16:22:52 GMT
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Murray Hill, NJ, USA
In-reply-to: evanh@sco.COM's message of 4 Sep 92 00:23:23 GMT


Dear Evan:

There are still a few benefits for monorail technologies, especially
in short-haul people mover applications, but they are not that great,
especially if one considers recent evolutions in bi-rail designs.

The "average" monorail is still a bit quieter than the "average"
bi-rail.  Any steel-on-steel propulsion system is more difficult to
integrate into a multi-purpose acoustical space than
rubber-on-whatever.  This means that bi-rail tracks in multi-use areas
need more acoustical isolation than monorails, but it does not mandate
separate, expensive station structures: bi-rail shuttles that arrive
behind "elevator-doors", (e.g., SeaTac airport shuttle) are virtually
silent.  Outdoors above grade, though, I have yet to hear a bi-rail
design as unobtrusive at the quietest monorail.

The near-zero footprint elevated right-of-way was unique to monorail
when the Wuppertal Schwebebahn was first designed, but it is not the
exclusive province of monorail any more.  Consider, for example, the
new parking shuttle at O'Hare.  It's built to monorail proportions,
but with the load split between dual spanning girders, with
conventional trackwork on top.

If you told me the bad news that a new transit line would be passing
25 feet outside my bedroom window on an open-air elevated structure,
but the good news was that I could choose the technology, I'd pick
monorail.  But if it was somebody else's window and I was merely paying
for it, I'd probably pick bi-rail.  ;-)

Van Kelly
vek@allegra.att.com

The above opinions are my own, not those of AT&T.
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: banarji@unixg.ubc.ca (Ajai Banarji)
Subject: A coincidence for disaster buffs
Originator: banarji@unixg.ubc.ca
Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 19:59:14 GMT

		A coincidence for disaster buffs

  As anyone with a little knowledge of British railway history knows, 
the worst-ever accident in Britain took place in 1915 at a place called
Quintinshill in southern Scotland. The official death roll was 227.
  Quintinshill is not a station, but merely a signal box with crossing
loops. Some reference books mention the site as Gretna, which was the
nearest station. This station no longer exists, but some time back the
railways advertised Gretna as one of the destinations a tourist could
reach by train. Some consumer organization complained about misleading
advertising since the station no longer existed :-)
  It would be difficult to imagine that many years later an even bigger
disaster would occur in this obscure part of Scotland. Yet this is
exactly what happened.
  What do you think is the name of the next open station to the north
of Quintinshill?
  You guessed it. Lockerbie.
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: M00209@MBVM.Mitre.Org
Subject: Re: Charlie on the T (was Re: Amtrack from Boston to Portland, ME)
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, Bedford MA 01730
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 15:21:47 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.162713@wsl.dec.com>
gnn@wsl.dec.com (George Neville-Neil) writes:
 
>
>I'm not sure who wrote it.  The version I heard was by The Kingston
>Trio.  The candidate was George O'Brian.  The last few lines of the
>song being:
>
>Vote for George O'Brian,
>get poor Charlie off the MTA.
>
Yeah, but "George O'Brian" is just as fictional a character as "Charlie".
The song, I am positive, was written purely as a joke.
 
 
Len Bachelder        Archives Committee, Boston and Maine RR Historical Society
MITRE Corp.           Secretary, Massachusetts Bay Railroad Enthusiasts
Bedford MA 01730      Member, 470 Railroad Club
<M00209@mbvm.mitre.org>
 
"Amazing love, how can it be that Thou, my God, should'st die for me!"
                                                 - Charles Wesley
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: cb@oddjob.mitre.org (Christopher M. Byrnes)
Subject: Re: 200-mile rail network under study in Vermont.
Organization: The Mitre Corp., Bedford, MA.
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 00:15:37 GMT

In article <jeff.715966161@amber.athena.lkg.dec.com> jeff@athena.lkg.dec.com (Jeff S. Tyler) writes:
>I also saw this piece in the Sunday Boston Globe with an additional bit
>quoting a Vermont state official to the effect that the Federal dollars
>are there and that the track is there and they are optimistic about the
>chances of doing this.  It's interesting to note that Vermont did a pretty
>good job of preserving the in-state portions of the old Rutland when she
>died in 1961.  With the exception of the "island route" and some trackage
>in the southern part of the state most of it's still there and in use.
I think it helps that the local railroads (Central Vermont, Green
Mountain, Vermont Railroad) have run seasonal tourist trains and have
even gone to court (with the B&M) so they could run Amtrak trains.  So
convincing them to run passenger trains wouldn't be the ordeal it is with
some railroads.  The tougher part for Vermont rail service will be
finding operating subsidy support.  Also providing connections to
major metropolitan areas such as Albany, NYC, and/or Boston.  Speaking
of rail connections to Boston from Vermont...
>It's interesting to compare this to New Hampshire's record on former B&M
>branches and even "Main Lines".  Does anyone know the current status of the
>Concord NH - White River JCT VT. line ?  State owned ?? ripped ?
Some, but not all, of the track north of Concord and south of Wells
River was reported torn up earlier this year.  The State of NH was
making noises about the charter for this railroad specifying return to
the state upon abandonment, but no serious effort to stop the removal
of this track (which hadn't been used in years) from proceeding.

#include <std.disclaimer>
--
					Christopher Byrnes
					The MITRE Corporation
					202 Burlington Road
					M/S A378A
					Bedford, Mass. 01730-1420

					cb@Mitre.org
	...!{att,decvax,genrad,ll-xn,philabs,utzoo}!linus!mbunix!cb.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: Steven.Schultz <Steven.Schultz@mixcom.mixcom.com>
Subject: Magazines, books, and videos for sale
Organization: Milwaukee Internet Xchange BBS, Milwaukee, WI U.S.A.
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 01:24:06 GMT

I have the following items for sale. Please contact me with any
questions. As for price, make an offer.
 
MAGAZINES:
 
NOTE: I will provide contents if requested or look for a specific
topic. 
 
Conrail Technical Society Newsletter:
#14 10/91
#15 12/91
 
Trains:
12/89 still in plastic, 7/90
 
Trains Illustrated:
9/89 still in plastic, 5/90
 
Passenger Train Journal:
3/84, 7/84-3/85, 7/85, 12/85-3/86, 1/87-5/87, 7/87, 7/90
 
BOOKS:
 
Trains hardcover bound volume 44, 1983-1984
 
Southeastern Wisconsin Regional Planning Commission Community
Assistance Planning Report #30 Whitewater Area Rail Service Plan
 
High Green to Marceline Santa Fe In Color Series Volume 1 by Joe
McMillan 
 
Conrail Volume 1: 1976-1982 by Scott Hartley
 
The Lake Superior Iron Ore Railroads by Patrick C. Dorin
 
Northwestern Pacific Pictorial by Wesley Fox
 
Great Northern Lines West by Charles R. Wood
 
Great Northern Lines East by Patrick C. Dorin
 
Milwaukee Road Narrow Gauge: The Chicago, Bellevue, Cascade and
Western, Iowa's Slim Princess by John Tigges and Jon Jacobson
 
VIDEOS:
 
Pentrex Preview tape Volume 1 and 2, VHS, 40 minutes, 1988
 
Pentrex Today's St. Louis Railroads, VHS, 1 hour, 1990
 
Please contact me with any questions. Thanks.
-- 
Steve Schultz     Steven.Schultz@mixcom.com
Newsgroups: rec.railroad,alt.great-lakes
From: dave@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (David A Rasmussen)
Subject: Camping near Duluth/Superior?
Originator: dave@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Organization: UW-Milwaukee Computing Services Division
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 05:12:23 GMT

In looking for a place to camp out a night before I go to ride a train
in Duluth on Saturday noon, I ran across Amnicon Falls and Pattison
State Park. Amnicon Falls has no amenities like showers, and although
the falls worked well a few years ago as a shower, I dunno if the water
is that warm yet now. Of course I don't know if the amenities close
down at Pattison like swimming pools do around here after labor day either.

Does anyone have any directions for getting into Pattison from Hwy 35
from the south? My other interest is trains. I notice the BN mainline
passes through nearby. How close is it to the park campgrounds? On the
camping map it shows the line through Foxboro. Is this the mainline
that the Soo and others have trackage rights on?

Oh yea, to the alt.great-lakes people, the water temp at Lake Michigan's
Bradford Beach on labor day was around 52, a tad cool for swimming anymore.

-- 
Dave Rasmussen - SysAdm/Hacker/Consulting Manager, UWM Computing Svcs Div.
Internet:dave@uwm.edu, Uucp:uwm!dave, Bitnet:dave%uwm.edu@INTERBIT
AT&T:414-229-5133 USmail:Box 413 EMS380,Milwaukee,WI 53201
From: eddie@railnet.nshore.ORG (Eddie Van Huffel)
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Subject: Donkey
Keywords: Electric Locomotive Switcher Docksider
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 92 07:50:35 EDT
Distribution: na
Organization: Railnet BBS +1 216 786 0476

This weekend, while trying to catch a freebee at the Cleveland Air Show, I 
went to an old haunt 
where I haven't been in years.  The area was Whiskey Island, specifically 
the C&P Ore Dock yards.  There, sitting quite by itself was a peculiar 
looking sort of an engine, which appeared to be a third rail electric donkey 
switcher.  Does anyone have any familiarity with the unit, and can they post 
the specifics of this engine.  I hope to get a photo, and post it as a GIF.
Thanks in advance.

--
eddie@railnet.nshore.ORG (Eddie Van Huffel)
Railnet BBS +1 216 786 0476
From: v106qhlw@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Poster Child Against Meal Plan)
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Subject: Re: Three questions
Date: 9 Sep 92 16:22:00 GMT
Distribution: rec
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

With regard to the markings... you might want to look in your nearest library
for the _Uniform Traffic Controls_ manual, printed by the federal dept of 
transportation.  It has all the guidelines for local depts to develop
consistent signage for roadways, etc.  It's got things like the mandatory
size and proportions and colors of traffic devices; proper roadway (lane)
measurements; and the best techniques for road striping.  Neat stuff.

While it probably won't give you the dates for when these things changed,
you might be able to write them and ask them... maybe.

mark foggin 
university of buffalo
From: jeff@athena.lkg.dec.com (Jeff S. Tyler)
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Subject: Re: 200-mile rail network under study in Vermont.
Date: 9 Sep 92 02:01:29 GMT
Distribution: usa

cb@oddjob.mitre.org (Christopher M. Byrnes) writes:

>I think it helps that the local railroads (Central Vermont, Green
>Mountain, Vermont Railroad) have run seasonal tourist trains and have
>even gone to court (with the B&M) so they could run Amtrak trains.  So
>convincing them to run passenger trains wouldn't be the ordeal it is with
>some railroads.  The tougher part for Vermont rail service will be
>finding operating subsidy support.  Also providing connections to
>major metropolitan areas such as Albany, NYC, and/or Boston.  Speaking
>of rail connections to Boston from Vermont...
>>It's interesting to compare this to New Hampshire's record on former B&M
>>branches and even "Main Lines".  Does anyone know the current status of the
>>Concord NH - White River JCT VT. line ?  State owned ?? ripped ?
>Some, but not all, of the track north of Concord and south of Wells
>River was reported torn up earlier this year.  The State of NH was
>making noises about the charter for this railroad specifying return to
>the state upon abandonment, but no serious effort to stop the removal
>of this track (which hadn't been used in years) from proceeding.

>#include <std.disclaimer>
>--
>					Christopher Byrnes
>					The MITRE Corporation
>					202 Burlington Road
>					M/S A378A
>					Bedford, Mass. 01730-1420

>					cb@Mitre.org

Well that leaves us with only the B&M/CV Conn. river line or via northern
Main for direct rail access into Canada, right ? WWJ/Concord is gone, the
Cheshire went about 1971, and the notch is still there but embargo'ed at
least if not actually abandoned (MEC ?).  There have been numerous recent
stories about the "intermodal terminal" to be built at FT Devens by
Guilford and CP(nee DH) but never any clear picture of what the traffic
patterns would look like.  All involve containers and the port of Boston
but that's it.  I would assume that if there is indeed CP interest and if
any traffic actually rolls west of Devens it would be via the B&M to
Mechanicsville (sp?) NY and then via D&H.  What does the clearance look
like btwn Ayer and the B&M yards in Boston? single stack at best I would
guess.  And I know you're not going to fit double stacks through the Hosic
tunnel (not without a hole stretcher :-).  The Worcester Mass T&G ran an
editorial the other day grumping about all of this and telling Bill Weld to
watch his step, somewhat surprising in light of their generally favorable
stand on rails in general.  I got the feeling that they felt that
Worcester (port of Worcester :-) stack traffic might be threatened by a
Devens terminal.  Sorry for all the rambling but any sign of life in rails
north of Boston gets me going.  Given the effects of 30 years of Interstate
highways, inept (and criminal) management and governmental neglect it's
pretty sad.  I left New England in 1967 and returned in 1989 and was really
shocked at how  bad it's become.
--
Jeff S. Tyler
Decathena
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Subject: George, Charlie, and the MTA
From: bob@1776.COM (Robert Coe)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 20:45:54 EDT
Distribution: na
Organization: 1776 Enterprises, Sudbury MA

M00209@MBVM.Mitre.Org writes:
> >Vote for George O'Brian,
> >get poor Charlie off the MTA.
> >
> Yeah, but "George O'Brian" is just as fictional a character as "Charlie".
> The song, I am positive, was written purely as a joke.

No, George O'Brien (with an "e") was a real person - a candidate, I believe, 
for the Boston City Council.  Some years ago (I forget how many) one of the 
Boston papers mentioned O'Brien and his connection to the song.  (I suppose 
it was on the occasion of O'Brien's death, but I'm not sure.)

"Charlie" is fictional.   :^)

   ___            _                                           -  Bob
   /__) _   /    / ) _   _
(_/__) (_)_(_)  (___(_)_(/_______________________________________ bob@1776.COM
Robert K. Coe ** 14 Churchill St, Sudbury, Massachusetts 01776 ** 508-443-3265
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: eoliver@laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au (Eddie Oliver)
Subject: Re: Most spectacular passenger routes
Organization: Macquarie University, Australia.
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 08:04:07 GMT


It seems to me that most countries have at least some spectacular routes
(provided that they have passenger trains at all, of course!) Moreover
often routes which are thought commonplace by the locals can be thought 
extraordinarily scenic by visitors.

I have never been to New Zealand, but I gather that almost all the
passenger routes there are at least in that category, or else are
thought to be brilliant by everybody.

We have four major routes out of Sydney which we tend to treat as quite
routine - familiarity breeds contempt, and all that. However for visitors
they are regarded as great scenic attractions - "come and ride the train
for an experience you will get nowhere else".

There is one cross-country route about 60 miles south of Sydney which carries
a passenger train service on weekends almost entirely for its scenic value -
almost nobody would ride it as a way of getting from point A to point B, but
it regularly carries significant numbers of people just for the ride.

So maybe the whole discussion is, in the ultimate analysis, just a matter of
definition? Even flat desert routes which have no scenery at all may be
thought "scenic" by people unfamiliar with them!

Eddie Oliver
Newsgroups: rec.railroad,ba.tranportation
From: adrian@ntmtv.UUCP (Adrian Brandt)
Subject: Re: Maintainance on CalTrain?
Organization: Northern Telecom Inc, Mountain View, CA
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 00:02:04 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.120052@wsl.dec.com>, gnn@wsl.dec.com (George Neville-Neil) writes:
|> Does anyone out there know who is in charge of maintainance for CalTrain?

Amtrak.

-- 

Adrian Brandt (415) 940-2379
UUCP: ...!ames!ntmtv!adrian
ARPA: ntmtv!adrian@ames.arc.nasa.gov
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: ehr@ecsvax.uncecs.edu (Ernest H. Robl)
Subject: Re: Most spectacular passenger routes
Summary: not just scenery
Organization: UNC Educational Computing Service
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 00:05:56 GMT

In article <2450@tymix.Tymnet.COM>, romeo@niagara.Tymnet.COM (Michael Stimac) writes:
> 
> So, are we rail-fans or scenery-fans? Do we point our
> camera toward the rails or away from them?
> 
> (I'm in no way trying to flame the scenery lovers, just
> trying to stir up a little thought and discussion - I'd
> also like to learn of other impressive civil engineering
> accomplishments around the world)
> 
> Michael Stimac
> 
> -- 
> Michael Stimac
> (415) 355-8889
> romeo@tymnet.com
> These opinions are not necessarily anyone's but my own.


Here's my $0.02 worth on this issue:  I like scenery as much as
anyone, and sometimes I do photograph just scenery.  But for
railfan purposes, what impresses me at places like Donner Pass,
Stevens Pass, or Semmering Pass (Austria) is not the scenery, but
how the railroad -- or rather those building the railroad -- have
managed to deal with the scenery.  What I find fascinating is that,
on lines built more than a century ago, without the benefit of laser
guidance and other modern technology, they still managed to solve
the problem of overcomming the terrain.

In most of these cases, the route has remained the same over many
years because the original builders found the best one available.

For these same reasons, I do find the TGV and ICE routes spectacular,
too.  They, too, are methods of dealing with the terrain.

Given the choice between just nice scenery and nice scenery with a
100-car train with eight units battling up a 2 per cent grade, I'll
always take the latter.

-- Ernest

-- 

"My other computer is a Nikon N8008." -- Ernest H. Robl
Ernest H. Robl (ehr@ecsvax)  Durham, NC, USA   +1  919   286-3845
                                         FAX:  +1  919   286-1696
From: elw4@po.CWRU.Edu (Evan L. Werkema)
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Subject: Re: Amtrak Stations
Date: 14 Sep 1992 22:27:42 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: elw4@po.CWRU.Edu (Evan L. Werkema)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, gurd@next04wor.wam.umd.edu (Daffy Duck) says:

>The Washington Times, devoted almost its entire money section Today
>(Sunday, Sept. 13) to Amtrak's stations and how they are helping the  
>company increase ridership.  

>"RENOVATED STATIONS ARE FUELING THE REBIRTH OF RAILROADS"

   I heard somewhere that Amtrak is looking at some way of moving back into
St. Louis Union.  The station has been rebuilt into a mall of sorts, and
Amtrak has been using an Amshack about 1/2 mile south, but there complaints
about such an uninspiring entry to the city (who could argue with that?)  
Does anybody know if anything more has come of it?  Also, has someone finally 
rescued Kansas City's Union Terminal?  After Amtrak moved out, several failed 
attempts were made to renovate it.  I understand the first developer got 
permission to develop the surrounding land if he would renovated the station. 
He surrounded the station with parking garages, but reneged on renovating it. 
When I last saw it in 1991, it was still sitting unused and deteriorating.

-- 
  o__II_---__---_---__I~~|~________________ ,------[~~]------, ,-----[~~]-----,
 __|_______||_________|__|_|   Santa Fe   | |  Evan Werkema  | |              |
/ o~~O--O--O~~O--O--O~~o~~~~o-o-o~~~~o-o-o~~~o--o~~~~~~~~o--o~~~o--o~~~~~~o--o~
----------- ^-Flexible-boiler! ---------------elw4@po.cwru.edu-----------------
From: wmc@pnet51.orb.mn.org (William Cordes)
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Subject: East New York on the NYCTA
Date: 13 Sep 92 18:25:00 GMT
Organization: People-Net [pnet51], Minneapolis, MN.

.       Can people like Todd, Danny, or John fill us in on that prototype of
all freeway interchanges, the 6- or 7-level elevated junction/station complex
at East New York (in B'k'lyn)?  Who built what when, and why?  How much of it
is still active--daily, occasionally, very seldom?
.       I have to confess that I was through there last almost 20 years ago
(riding the 14th St line out to 105th St Canarsie, complete with the gated
crossing 1 station from the outer end.  Got a movie sequence of a station
wagon just being missed by the downcoming gate, too!), so I interested in
what's happening now.
.       (I have been following the NYCTA discussion here with some interest--
keep up the good work, guys!)
.                                       WmC

UUCP: {tcnet, crash, quest}!orbit!pnet51!wmc
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