From: bavafa@netcom.com (Hooshyar Naraghi)
Subject: Re: eesAr
Organization: Final Episode
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 09:41:59 GMT

>Dear Mr. Naraghi:

bA dorood, shahrAm khAn.

Sa'di wrote many centuries ago:
>>>"to az sar-e man va az jAn-e man aziz tari"
>>>"bakheelam ar nakonam sar fadA _o_ jAn eesAr"

ShahrAm voiced his opinion that 'eesAr' and 'fadA' had the same meaning
above, but I in an unorthodoxingly sarcastic way said:
>>I swear to God, I can't see it your way even in the above example!
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

As a result he requested:
>Then why don't you tell us how you see it?

Please note that when I say I can't see your interpretation, I don't have 
to necessarily offer another interpretation.  I haven't even said that your
interpretation is wrong; you might be correct!  It's me who can't see it.

You see if your interpretation is correct, it must be correct independent
of me.  My lack of understanding your view does not necessarily mean that
it is incorrect; it does not require that I have to produce another view
either.

I was hoping to be asked: 'WHY cannot you see it that way?'  My answer 
would then be:  Well, I haven't read the story that Sa'di wrote.  I even
don't know from what book it is.  I only know it has been cited as an 
example of 'eesAr' in loghat-nAmeh Dehkhoda.  I would be hesitant to say
eesAr and fadA are carrying the SAME meaning.  That's all.

Now, If I were going not to do further investigation and only look at the
'beyt' as it is, I would have speculated that Sa'di must have had a reason
to separate 'sar' from 'jAn.'  Then I would follow to guess that he
attributed 'fadA' to sar and 'eesAr' to jAn for some reason.  If he had
nothing new to say and used some synounyms to construct a beyt, I would
rate it as a 'bande tonbAni' beyt.  I have a hard time to see Sa'di in
that category!

>Replace "eesAr' with "fadA" and see if the meaning of that line changes.
> I don't see any change. What about you?

But, I do!  Having ABSOLUTELY no background information about what the hell
our ostAde sokhan is saying, I can only reason that we know there is definite
difference between sar and jAn.  I don't even know what Sa'di means by sar
and jAn in this beyt.

So until then I have nothing to offer as *my way* except few speculations and
some questions.  In contrast, you seemed to know what exactly he was talking
about.  I simply said I couldn't see your way because you didn't offer any
reason.  Your only reason was to switch the words.  This test can produce
your 'matloob' (desired) result if you ASSUME they have the same meaning!
^|^^
 |----->  no this is not a trigger word.

>We can also ask interested people to judge this one.

They are always more than welcome.  It does not mean that I will agree to
'ray-giri'.  I hope somebody will come forward and share with us what the
story is in which Sa'di composes this beyt.

>You are trying to imply that you mainly wanted to challenged people to find a
>word as "vast & jAme'" as eesAr but you happened to choose a quote that was
>the description of one of the sub-concepts that are hidden in the concept
>of eesAr.  I am sure that this is not the case.
            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
You are very sure, unfortunately!

>No sir. You started it in a different way. This is what you are saying now.
>You gave the description of some concept and asked for a persian equivalent
>for that and you got your answer(s).
              
And I said I wouldn't buy them.  I could say that and still your reply
carries its own merrits.  My not buying it is independent of your answer,
I hope.  :-)

>>You seem to be so much focused on your Persian language that you might not
>                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>What do you mean by "your Persian language"? It can have different
>implications. I will save myself some time by not jumping into conclusion.

First, thanks for your patience.  Second, "your" was a trigger word.  It
was to make you pick it up.  The sentence could very well have read as
" . . . Persian language . . . "

>I think I have already given the answer to this question. It's either you
>changed the way you were addressing the problem after reading FD, or it is my
>fault that I didn't ask if your point was one word for a "vast & jAme'"
>concept , or a word for the *specific* catagory that you quoted!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am happy that you are a fair person.  Let's end the topic with the two
possibilities.

Regards,
Hooshyar F. Naraghi
bavafa@netcom.com
(415) 322-8056
Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian