From: jcliu@four-lab4.Berkeley.EDU (James C. Liu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.japan
Subject: Re: Comfort girls?
Date: 29 Dec 1992 21:03:02 GMT
Organization: UC Berkeley Dept. of Nuclear Engineering
NNTP-Posting-Host: four-lab4.berkeley.edu
Keywords: rape of nangking

In article <1992Dec29.025921.144@leland.Stanford.EDU> underdog@leland.
Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe) writes:

  >...mealy-mouthed comments made by Chinese-cu people...What morons.
  >...No...b*llsh*t...total b*llsh*t...ignorant...How stupid can you get?
  >...Chinese-cu jerks...Those Chinese-cu jerks...nasty, filthy, mealy-
  >   mouthed comments...Chinese-cu culture and society...sucks.

Thanks for the flames, Mr. Joe. I apologize for making you angry. But
me thinks there may be straightening out and explainin' to do.
Specifically you write:

  >I suspect that Mr. Liu is Chinese-cu; he has already admitted to being
  >Chinese-ge.  It seems that Chinese-cu Chinese-ge are virtually the only
  >people who insist that a Chinese-ge must necessarily be Chinese-cu.
  >Yes.  Rednecks and Klansmen have the same view.

I don't see how you can back up that statement.  Yes, I am comfortable
with my genetic origins and my cultural background, however, I'm much
more "American" than you think.  I'm also much more Japanese-cu than
you think. 

  >Chinese-cu and rednecks are unable to see people as individuals who
  >are free to choose whatever culture (or set of values) that they
  >desire.

Many Klansmen make that claim as a defense that they have the right to
individual beliefs.  I don't see how labeling me as a "Redneck" of
Chinese-cu has relevence to my arguments except the one statement that I
made at the opening of my article that you have obvious despisement of
the Chinese...which you openly admit.

  >People like Mr. Liu are unable to distinguish between culture (behavior)
  >and ethnicity (genetics).  Mr. Liu translates my criticism of Chinese-cu
  >culture and society into hatred of Chinese-ge.  Only a Chinese-cu would do
  >that.

Again, your assumption of illectual inferiority on my part is
pre-mature and incorrect as you admit your own bias in your closing line.
My assessment of your racial bias against the Chinese was correct.
I can and do make the distinction between culture and genetics AND
political ideology.  You seem to be stuck on the comparisons of cultures
and how the Chinese-cu is inferior when in actuality the cultures are so
similar in ideology between Japan, China, Korea and the other southeast
Asian nations, and the Political philosophies of the ruling governments
determine the people's perceived behaviors.

  >It is also indicative of Chinese-cu that they consider the Chinese-ge
  >to be a distinctive "racial" group, as distinct from the Korean
  >"racial" group and the Chinese "racial" group.  I suspect that Mr. Liu
  >was born overseas; his thinking certainly suggests such a possibility.

I don't truly believe Chinese, Koreans and Japanese are all that
different culturally.  I see more similarities that differences.

  >This is total b*llsh*t.  I don't see why Japanese-ge people have special
  >responsibilities because of what other Japanese-ge people did.  The only
  >thing that Japanese-ge children should be taught is accurate history that
  >depicts events in all its proper dimensions.  That's all.

All societies have responsibilities to insure that their peoples do not
commit atrocities upon others.  You prematurely made the wrong
assumption that I was singling out the Japanese. 

  >However, we all, not just the Japanese-ge, have responsibility to ensure
  >that atrocities never happen again.  This is not a responsility that
  >accrues specially to the Japanese-ge.  We _all_ have this responsibility.
  >
  >It's too bad that Chinese-cu people don't understand.  Western-cu Chinese-ge
  >people understand.  Actually, virtually all Westerners-cu understand.
  >It's mostly the Chinese-cu that are ignorant.

"Mostly" is most likely a true statement...however, many westerners do not
understand either.  Do you truly understand, Mr. Joe?

  >The Japanese-ge have greater knowledge, despite the twisted efforts
  >of the Japanese-cu gov't to hide history, of what happened in WWII than
  >the Chinese-cu have of what happened in this century.

Greater?  But, Is it sufficient?  Hardly.

  >Almost no Chinese-cu know that the Chinese-ge killed more than 75 million
  >people in this century--let alone admit it.

Again you selectively exaggerate.  US News and world Report did a story
many years ago citing 35-50 Million as an upper estimate.  I admit it, 
..Mao was the cruelest SOB in History.  I still have relatives in
concentration camps in Manchuria.  Our family sneaks money to them so
they can live a mediocre existence.  I don't approve of this.  It just 
happens that his legacy...the CCCP is still in power.  The truth won't 
come out until the government reforms...Again distinguish between
culture and politics.

  [stuff deleted on Taiwan]
  >This paragraph is typical of Chinese-cu people.

No.  Typical of Taiwanese raised Chinese people.  I'm not pro KMT, but
It turned out to be a beneficial dictatorship and most residents of the
island, including the natives have benefitted tremendously in an
economic sense.  Does this justify the brutality?  No.  I can't say that.

  >Perhaps, Mr. Liu should go back to my original post.  At no point did
  >I use Chinese-cu ignorance and cruelty to justify the Japanese gov'ts
  >efforts to hide history.

But why bring it up?  Why use the Chinese as punching bag if you do not
have a certain resentment? There was a thread a while back proclaiming the
Dwight Joe was a racist...I read some decent defenses by you of others'
attacks, but what I did notice was that you always take attacks so
personally.  And you always come back with a lot of poor vocabulary
words that attack the individual.  (e.g.  mealy-mouthed, stupid,
b*llsh*t, jerks, etc)  there's no need.  If I offended you, hey look, I
apologize.

  >I was responding to Ms. Tongue's request on how the Japanese-cu and
  >the Chinese-cu viewed WWII.  That's all that I was responding to.
  >At no point did I use Chinese-cu barbarism to justify what the Japanese-cu
  >gov't is doing.  The only thing that I added was that despite Chinese-cu
  >vilification of the Japanese-ge, the Chinese-cu don't mention that they
  >killed 75 million people--including 20,000 Taiwanese.

Again you exaggerate with false numbers which reflect badly on Chinese as
a whole population and not just the government, and I can only conclude
that you have a vendetta towards the Chinese-ge and -cu.

  >Experience has shown me that _only_ Chinese-cu people would then conclude
  >that I was justifying the Japanese-cu gov'ts efforts to hide history.
  >Again, for the 3rd time (to the Chinese-cu jerks), I did not say any
  >such thing.

You need not say such things to imply you true feelings.  Written words 
are a powerful medium which unbears your true malice.

  >_Only_ Chinese-cu people would make this kind of erroneous extrapolation.
  >They really are ignorant.

There are other non-chinese on this net who have made similar
extrapolations.  You stand corrected in your use of -only-

  >My point is that the Chinese-cu are just as disgusting as what they
  >claim the Japanese-ge to be.

I don't claim that the Japanese-ge are disgusting now.  I find Japanese
people very pleasing to be with and with many endearing qualities.  But they 
are not much unlike other people in America, Europe, Africa or Asian.  

  >Come on.  Do we really need to post the Newsweek article about
  >the Chinese-cu massacre of Taiwanese-ge?

Would you be willing to post a similar article on Japanese occupation of
Taiwan as well? occupation of China?  Your infatuation with Japan seems
selectively blind.

  >The Chinese-cu gunned down a grandmother sellling cigarettes, claiming
  >that she was a subversive.  Oh Chr*st.  How is that "a calculated
  >military action"?

No, I said I was not trying to justify the KMT actions...however, to be
specific, the goal of the KMT was to assimilate the Taiwanese who had
already adopted many of the customs and language of Fu-Jen.  Of course
there was brutality in this assimilation and there were the innocents
who suffered and died, however, this pales in magnitude and degree
to the annihilation by the Japanese upon the Chinese.  The Japanese
already occupied the land.  There was no intent to assimilate the people
in Nanjing.  It was deliberate genocide.

  >By the way, I don't see how "death by Japanese-ge machine gun" is more
  >inhuman than "death by Chinese-cu machine gun".  I also don't see
  >how "rape by Japanese-ge" is more inhuman than "rape by Chinese-ge".

My grandmother will testify to witnessing many gang rapes by the
Japanese followed by thrusts with bayonets up and into the lower
abdomen.  Where a quick thrust with a knife to the heart or a bullet
would suffice, additional suffering was imposed.

  >Just leave it to a Chinese-cu to say that Japanese-ge brutality is
  >worse than Chinese-cu Chinese-ge brutality.  To Westerners-cu, they

In another article I condemned the communists for adopting similar forms
of inhumane treatment.

>Typical Chinese-cu comments to anyone who says anything critical about
>Chinese-cu society.  This is basically a variation on
>
>        You don't really understand Chinese-cu history or culture.
>        That's why you are saying such critical things.  _I_ know Chinese-cu
>        culture; it's in my blood.   What you are saying is totally distorted.
>        Believe _me_.
>
>This and its variations (like Mr. Liu's statements) is basically said by
>Chinese-cu people to anyone who dares to criticize Chinese-cu thinking.

Again, taken out of context.  I qualified the statement that differing
Asian scholars have differing opinions on the treatment of the
Tibetans.

  >Think about this.  If you accept Mr. Liu's thinking, then you can
  >never criticize Chinese-cu society.  Why?  Because anything or anyone
  >that is used as a source of criticism is automatically negated since
  >they "don't really understand Chinese-cu history or culture".

How convenient to single me out as the typical Chinese-cu dude.  I'm far
from born and raised within a "typical" Chinese-cu.  Your assigning me a
representative of all Chinese just makes you look hyprocritical in your
attempt to shine as a "Westerner" with beliefs in "individualism."

  >How stupid can you get?  But this is typical Chinese-cu thinking.

I've made many a blunders in my life...perhaps responding to your
obviously baited post was on of them...

  >Note that the Chinese-cu made these comments, not in Oct. 29 1952, but
  >in October 29, _1992_!

Correction:  Notice that the Chinese-gov't made these comments.  Not
culture.  Mr. Joe, you who want to be so specific in your distinction
between genetics and culture should also be able to distinguish between
culture and political ideology.

  >Go figure Chinese-cu culture and society.  I haven't.  It sucks.

Yes, you haven't figured it out about a lot of things.  Just like the
rednecks you so depise, what you don't understand you think sucks. 

Jaa, James
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James C. Liu |    If you love Japan...sing Japanese Karaoke!          |
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Newsgroups: soc.culture.japan