From: steveh@thor.isc-br.com (Steve Hendricks)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.bush,alt.politics.marrou,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.elections,talk.politics.theory
Subject: Re: Anti-religious fanatics (Was Re: School Choice )
Summary: Fanatics can be found in all social movements
Date: 22 Aug 92 19:05:39 GMT
Organization: ISC-Bunker Ramo, An Olivetti Company

In article <ATAYLOR.92Aug17180945@gauss.nmsu.edu> ataylor@nmsu.edu (Nosy) writes:
><In article <24922@castle.ed.ac.uk> fofp@castle.ed.ac.uk (M Holmes) writes:
>
><   The thing is that christianity has shown a penchant for this sort of
><   thing. Apart from the inquisition I'm thinking of:
	 [List of atrocities ommitted.]
><   So this "aberration" seems to be a regular feature of christianity.
><   It's a reasonable question to ask whether a penchant for mass-murder
><   could be expected from a creed whose god is also depicted as having
><   a very strong genocidal and murderous streak.
>
>	I note that all of those events occurred rather a while back.

Sorry, no cigar.  Persecution of non-Christians by Christians is hardly
limited to ancient cases.  Croation massacres of Serbs and Bosnians
in WWII had the active support of the Church.  Similar instances of
Christian complicity and support for the Holocaust can be cited in 
other parts of Eastern and Western Europe.  And in fairness, it should
be noted that persecution of Christians by other religions and secular
social movements is common, as well.   

The point is that no ideology or social movement that has had major
historical impact can claim clean hands in this regard.

>
>	However, let's continue in this direction: socialism, as
>	religion, has killed more than all previous religious
>	crusades.
>
>	* The 1920's purges of "kulaks" in the USSR
>	* The 1930's purge of the Communist Party of the USSR
>	* The 1930's purge of Communists by the NSDAP in Germany
>	* The 1930's purge of the Army in the USSR
>	* War in Europe from 1939 to 1945, instigated by Socialists,
>	  continued by Socialists.

Now this is interesting.  It should be noted that "socialism" as
practiced by the CPSU (Communist Party, Soviet Union) has never been
the sole example of international socialism.  In fact, much of the 
international socialist movement has consistently rejected the practices
Of the CPSU.  You obviously have little understanding of the political
conflicts that have characterized the international socialist movement
since the early 19th century.  Suffice to say that most western 
democracies have included both "socialist" and "communist" parties 
since at least the late 19th century and that the two groups have 
rarely been allies.

Even worse, to lump the Nazis in as examples of socialists simply because
it was appropriated by the NSDAP as part of the name indicates a woeful
ignorance of European history.  

>	* The killing in Cambodia
>
>	And so forth and so on. Now, it will be argued that
>	"those actions weren't carried on by REAL socialists"....
>	but that's the same argument as "the crusades weren't
>	carried on by REAL christians".

This sort of "so's your mother" argument is both fallacious and
non-productive.  To imply that "socialism" prompted the atrocities 
cited, you are obligated to indicate what aspect of the ideology 
is the basis of the behavior cited.  All you have done is to 
select atrocities committed by groups who called themselves "socialist."

At least the original poster indicated that Christian atrocities resulted
from a conception of a God with a "genocidal and murderous streak."  While
that's an oversimplified (and IMHO ultimately flawed) analysis.  It 
at least suggests a familiarity with Christian ideology (though a 
partial familiarity, to say the least.)  Your post suggests no equivalent
understanding of socialist ideology.
--
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