HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kcameron@erc.cat.syr.edu (Ken Cameron)
Subject: Re: Rigs on Airlines?
Organization: Electronic Resource Center, Syracuse
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 92 19:33:37 EST

About 2 years ago there was a summary posted in USPA Parachutist.
It showed that allmost all US airlines allowed rigs as carry-on if
they will fit under your seat. I use USAir mostly and haven't had
any trouble except at my home airport, it's the guards, not USAir, but
I educated them and haven't had a problem since. Note: things like
AAD's, altimiters, and flotation devices will cause problems because
of the parts (explosives, compressed gas, clock-like mechs). I would
suggest that you call the airline (not the reservation desk) and ask
what's ok.

-- 
-ken cameron. SkyDiver: Zoo-602, A-8596, D-11839. Skier.
Employer: Computer Task Group.  /cny UNIX Users Group Director.
Disclamer: "I said it, when I said it, so what! Now is different!"
Internet: kcameron@erc.cat.syr.edu
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: tjreynol@zephyr.cair.du.edu (five left and cut!)
Subject: I LIED!!!
Organization: University of Denver
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 92 05:22:48 GMT

I Jumped today! HAHHAHAHAHAAAA
And it was COLD!!!!!!
And I Borrowed gear from (non-jumpin, but understandably so) Jan!
I almost cut away ('cause it opened so slow)!!!!
Bwawahahahahah

I'm a jumpin fool. 
I like it that way *grin*

Heck, I even jumped with a Low Timer. Imagine that! A Skydive Coloradoan
*Stooping* to the lowly. An _Almost Unheard of Thing_

I didn't even treat him like a Child!
I'll Jump with Him _Again_ ! Holy Cow!
And not just because I ike him. Because Someone Has To.

Do I detect a trend? Hahahah, I laugh in your general direction.

Pray I win the Lotto and am able to move to Tampa...

Oh, the jump:
What's_his_Face has no Four Point Four Way (a Big Deal Thing - when noone
competent will jump with you...); two of us Sorta_In_With_The_*Good*_Jumpers
Types (one much more so than the other, why, I can't figure) made the big
Stoop, dodged the laughter and shit, jumped with this dude, Heck, We even
Critiqued his Stuff! No bogusness to be found on this day (don't faint!).
*
Y0rnfNN2Upr~l,NZZZZQmeG"b;

Whoops. Phone call.
Other stuff:
The reserve I bought in June has been returned to the Texan owner; the guy
that sold it to me told me the situation would be resolved by last Saturday.
As of this Saturday, the issue remains unresolved. I've not been aggressive,
and I've not seen him for two weeks, but things remain amiss. I'm not happy,
but then the weather was crap last weekend, and I have a bum elbow anyway,
and enough money for a square reserve, and Jan is pretty generous,....
Still I'm out $200 right now. Small Claims is almost begging me...

But that would be bad politics. Ha. I'd like to see some Good Politics.
Fuck Me`._}}:$B$ A9:1z_tSl$@NT~

Damn, another phone call.

What the hell to do...


Fucking scums... what to do about scum... God give me a good DZ, the FAA
sure won't allow it. Oh, and what of the USPA?? Make me laugh! HAHAHAHAHAHA
We have wasted our money on the AAD fund. USPA says so. USPA ... Haha. Gimme
a break. Long Live Skydiving... Hell with scum... You know who you are.
Do they?

Ha.

Tim
I'll jump with anyone. Just ask. :-)





Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: esj@wasp.eng.ufl.edu (Eric S. Johnson)
Subject: PIA symposium
Reply-To: esj@wasp.eng.ufl.edu (Eric S. Johnson)
Organization: U of Florida  Engineering Computer Support Facility
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 92 23:50:14 GMT

I finally sent in my registration to to PIA symposium in Orlando next March.
Any other netters going? 

Ej
From: mstack@mcs213a.cs.umr.edu (Martin Stack)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Video
Date: 10 Nov 92 23:12:04 GMT
Organization: University of Missouri - Rolla


      If you want a copy of the Sky Bound program It is 7.75. you can 
send your money to  the following address.

       Martin Stack
        206 E 12th St
        Rolla, MO 65401

     Oh and by the way this program will be on again I looked it up in 
the TV guide and it is the Body Pilot segment again. I guess since it is on
Thursday I want to know by Thursday if anyone wants a copy or else I am 
I am returning most of the tapes I bought.  Blue Skies.

     Oh our school Sport Parachute Club will be doing a Demo into our
local football field this saturday.  And yes that includes  ME !  We get
to be part of half-time and we got the school to pay for it, our plane,
our insurance and everything....  

 


*********************************************************************
Martin Stack (mstack@cs.umr.edu) (s096051@umrvma.urm.edu)
From: bleck@aztec.ai.mit.edu (Olaf Bleck)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: O`Bryan in Nationals?
Date: 13 Nov 1992 06:12:38 GMT
Organization: MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory
Distribution: world
Reply-To: bleck@ai.mit.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: aztec.ai.mit.edu

In article <fqq1v!j@rpi.edu>, wilusd@cary115.its.rpi.edu (David John Wilusz) writes:
|> 
|> 	It is my understanding that Jacquelyn O`Bryan was the captain of some team in the nationals this year, and won first place...in something.  Does anyone know
|> a) the name of her team (I believe it previously was Jaco and the Boys),
|> b) which competition(s) her team entered,
|> c) what exactly she won in,
|> d) any other information about her and her team!
|> 


What, do you want her phone number?  I have it...

1st in 8-way, 9th in 4-way.
From: woycik@nymph.pa.dec.com (Tommy Woycik)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: Rigs on Airlines?
Date: 5 Nov 92 20:39:01 GMT
Article-I.D.: PA.1992Nov5.203901.24929
Reply-To: woycik@nymph.pa.dec.com (Tommy Woycik)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation

I've never had a problem taking my rig onboard.

But, this was before I had a Cypress installed.

Has anybody out there had to deal with security
and a pyrotechnic headache?

-Tommy
From: bleck@aztec.ai.mit.edu (Olaf Bleck)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: High speed exit shocks:  was Rigs on airplanes
Date: 14 Nov 1992 01:18:21 GMT
Organization: MIT Artificial Intelligence Laboratory
Distribution: world
Reply-To: bleck@ai.mit.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: aztec.ai.mit.edu

|> BTW, someone was speculating about whether it would be possible to get to a
|> door or emergency exit and jump out in an emergency.  If the plane hasn't
|> lost cabin pressure yet then stay put, because the doors physically cannot be
|> opened.  If you could open a door, you still might not know if you would clear
|> the tail (as that would largely be a function of the plane's airspeed and 
|> angle of attack).


That brings up an interesting question--if you happened to be able to get out
of a plane going 600 knots, how pummelled would you get when you hit the
airsteam?  Gotta be pretty damn hard, I imagine, maybe even unsurvivable
without a pressure suit? Hell, it was problems enough for people getting
pounded on that 205 knot 727 exit at Quincy, and the force goes up with the
square of velocity.   At some point the air looks pretty solid if you're
going fast enough, just like water.

-Olaf
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Sunday, 8 Nov 1992 18:46:28 CST
From: <U50281@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: nationals 92

Has anybody heard the results of the freestyle championships?

Jeff Hauser
Sky Knights SPC
East Troy, WI
From: kroon@alice.att.com (Peter Kroon)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: nationals  scores/round
Date: 14 Nov 92 03:03:01 GMT
Article-I.D.: alice.24180
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Murray Hill NJ


Here are the scores for 4 and 8-way nationals 92. THe dives were posted
earlier.

4-way
Round            1  2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9  10  tot  place
-
Knights GOld	12  4  12  14  11  14  12   9
Airmoves        15  6  10  18  17  19  13  17  15  10  140  3
Deland Vertical 14  6  15  17  16  19  15  16  16  14  148  1
Juggernauts     13  6  13  16  15  16  16  13  15  11  134  4
Mario Bros       8  4   1   8   5  10   8   8
Deland Debris   10  4  11  12  12  14  13  11
Knights Black   17  6  12  18  15  17  17  16  12  13  143  2
Ranch Bowlers   10  4   7  12  13  11  13   9


For the 8-way I will list only the Knights

                12  15  18  14  15  11  17



-- 
Peter Kroon  D-12374

phone: (908) 582 7000 
Email: kroon@research.att.com
From: bchurch@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Robert Church)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: Re:Rigs on airplanes
Date: 10 Nov 92 22:20:51 GMT
Organization: Ohio University School of Art. Athens

In article <1992Nov10.102051.171@gems.vcu.edu> hleaves@gems.vcu.edu writes:
>So, your plane's going down, but you've got your rig with you under the seat.
>What would you do? Jump or ride it down? Is the crew going to let walk you over
>to an exit, open the door, and jump? I have a feeling they would probably
>physically restrain you from doing this if you tried it. Opening the door of a
>plane in flight (even a plane about to crash) would be considered a danger to
>the rest of the passengers and crew left on the plane. Of course, everybody
>might be so panicked that nobody would notice you walking over to the door.
>Maybe you just want to take a look at the world before you die, right?

Opening the door of an airliner in flight is hazardous? This has to go down
as the understatement of the year.



-- 
*********************************************
*    bob church                             *
*    bchurch@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu           *
*    D-8195 NFS #27                         *
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: tjreynol@zephyr.cair.du.edu (five left and cut!)
Subject: Re: Rigs on airplanes
Organization: University of Denver
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 23:58:01 GMT

In article <1992Nov11.185037.22868@newsgate.sps.mot.com> beutel@chdasic.sps.mot.com writes:
>
>Not mention the fact that if you have your rig, (probably
>the only one back with the passengers) you most like would
>get killed from the others attempting to relieve you of it..!

Just grab the AAD control unit and yell "I'm wired! It'll explode!"



>Jim

Tim 

yea, well.. maybe not


Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: jld@lookout.it.uswc.uswest.com (Jeffrey DeMent)
Subject: Re: Rigs on airline
Organization: U S WEST Advanced Technologies
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 00:55:01 GMT

In article <1992Nov3.193532.6977@cascade.Stanford.EDU> eap@everest.Stanford.EDU (Eric Perozziello) writes:
>I just got back from taking Robin to the airport, we laid her
>rig on the conveyor at security, and the guy glanced once,
>did a doubletake, and let it go right thru.  Hope it's just as 
>easy for her to get it home.
>
>-Eric
>

I've taken my rig on Continental a number of times with absolutely
no problems (it's in a black bag that looks like a back-pack).  I've
gotten a few strange looks from the people running the scanners but
they have never stopped the belt and asked me what was in the bag :)

Jeff
B-15105
From: drp40@cd.amdahl.com (Doug Puchalski)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: Rigs on airplanes
Date: 11 Nov 92 21:38:12 GMT
Reply-To: drp40@cd.amdahl.com
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale, CA

In article <1992Nov11.185037.22868@newsgate.sps.mot.com>, beutel@chdasic.sps.mot.com (Jim Beutel) writes:
>
>Not mention the fact that if you have your rig, (probably
>the only one back with the passengers) you most like would
>get killed from the others attempting to relieve you of it..!

1.  Always take your tandem rig
2.  Sit next to a pretty girl

-- 
Doug Puchalski						   Death to all smileys
drp40@cd.amdahl.com
dpuchals@engin.umich.edu
From: koning@koning.enet.dec.com (Paul Koning)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: Rigs on Airlines?
Date: 5 Nov 92 22:21:17 GMT
Article-I.D.: engage.1992Nov5.222117.7666
Reply-To: koning@koning.enet.dec.com
Organization: Digital Equipment Co., distributed systems architecture


In article <1992Nov5.203901.24929@PA.dec.com>, woycik@nymph.pa.dec.com (Tommy Woycik) writes:
|>I've never had a problem taking my rig onboard.
|>
|>But, this was before I had a Cypress installed.
|>
|>Has anybody out there had to deal with security
|>and a pyrotechnic headache?
|>
|>-Tommy

A box of matches is a pyrotechnic device, too.

I can't see that there's a RATIONAL reason for being concerned.  There are
of course irrational reasons aplenty.  To deal with those, the simplest
approach is not to bring up the issue.  You can be pretty sure that no one
else will!

	paul, a-13683
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: decay@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (dean.kaflowitz)
Subject: Re: Rigs on Airlines?
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 17:29:33 GMT

In article <1992Nov5.084827.3255@zia.aoc.nrao.edu>, dbriggs@zia.aoc.nrao.edu (Daniel Briggs) writes:
> When was the last time you heard of a bag being lost for good, or even
> delayed more than a few hours?

Couple of years ago I had a flight back from CA.  Changed in
Minnesota.  Luggage lost for two days.

As for how rough the handlers are with luggage, I don't care
very much if they want to toss my Samsonite around like a
gorilla in the commercial.  My life doesn't depend on the
safety of my t-shirts.

Dean Kaflowitz
From: bchurch@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Robert Church)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: Rigs on Airlines?
Date: 6 Nov 92 00:44:34 GMT
Organization: Ohio University School of Art. Athens

In article <Bx95Hy.GBo@vti.com> mark@vti.com writes:
>Daniel Briggs (dbriggs@zia.aoc.nrao.edu) wrote:
>: I know that they can get rough with bags, but I don't think they
>: get *that* rough.
>
>Bet your life on it?
>
>Bent reserve pins and micro-cracks in the 3-ring release come
>to mind.  Also, there's plenty of dirt on the transfer carts
>and surfaces anywhere along the way may have sharp edges to rip
>through your gear bag.
>
>To be fair to you, it is unlikely that anything will happen to
>your gear and it's just a personal preference of mine to carry
>fragile stuff, but I've seen too many objects that say FRAGILE
>in big letters with big dents in it, too many boxes that say
>THIS END UP with the arrow pointing down, and too many foot
>prints on luggage to believe that my parachute would be safe.

A few years back I had to fly commercial to Wisconsin. I put some 5 1/4
floppy disks into a plastic disk holder. I put these in the center of a 
suitcase full of clothes. When I got there the disk holder was broken. 
I'd hate to think what they could do to a reserve.


-- 
*********************************************
*    bob church                             *
*    bchurch@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu           *
*    D-8195 NFS #27                         *
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: Robert_Magee@mindlink.bc.ca (Robert Magee)
Subject: Re: Rigs on airplanes
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 17:44:24 GMT

There was an Aloha  Air commercial liner that lost a chunk of fuselage while
enroute.  One flight attendant must have had an extraordinary free-fall
experience.  I can imagine the terror of the passengers, it must have seemed
as if the plane was disintegrating around them.  There was a lot of
screaming.  Except the passenger in 37H.  He was tense, but calm.  One hand
on the seatbelt.  The other holding his rig.  Far fetched? Maybe.......but
which one would you rather be.  It would be the greatest irony to die in a
plane crash with your rig stowed and out of reach.

Bobby Magee
Robert_Magee@mindlink.bc.ca
From: kroon@alice.att.com (Peter Kroon)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: nationals 92
Keywords: dives
Date: 10 Nov 92 17:33:16 GMT
Article-I.D.: alice.24142
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Murray Hill NJ

I do no have the scores handy, but here are the dives

8-Way open

#1  24 K 8
#2 21 6 16
#3 B 15 L 5
#4 O H 19 4
#5 C Q 1 13
#6 3 14 23
#7 A J E 10
#8 7 18 19

the 8-way meet was ended after 8 rounds since the knights were about 60
points ahead.

4-way open

#1 1 21 19
#2 5 14 8
#3 A 20 4
#4 E K 24 M
#5 P 9 23
#6 12 F L G
#7 B Q 18 H
#8 16 J 7
#9 6 3 O
#10 11 15 17
-- 
Peter Kroon  D-12374

phone: (908) 582 7000 
Email: kroon@research.att.com
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: mark@vti.com (Mark Smith)
Subject: Re: Rigs on Airlines?
Reply-To: mark@vti.com
Organization: Virtual Technologies, Inc.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 16:54:37 GMT

Daniel Briggs (dbriggs@zia.aoc.nrao.edu) wrote:
: But what about non-US carriers?

Also, I don't know about Sydney, but I've travelled to
Europe (UK) with my gear as a carryon and have had no
problems either (I use NorthWest).

The US side was less strict than the UK side was.
--
      /_\   Virtual                  Mark Smith          USPA D-13761
    /-~_  \    Technologies          mark@vti.com
  /      ~-_\     Incorporated       703-430-9247,   FAX 703-450-4560
/_____________\      46030 Manekin Plaza, Suite 160, Dulles, VA 20166

   *** ask about SENTINEL, The Ultimate Debugging Environment ***
From: kroon@alice.att.com (Peter Kroon)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: nationals 92
Keywords: fun
Date: 8 Nov 92 21:23:09 GMT
Article-I.D.: alice.24116
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Murray Hill NJ


I just came back from the Nationals, so here is a brief update.

The nationals were again in Eloy, Az, but co-hosted by Skydance, Ca.
I am not so sure what Skydance's input was, besides providing a King Air.

Eloy is a nice DZ, with lots of facilities. I did not like taking the bus
to the end of the runway to get the plane. Lack of coordination would
result in being out in the heat for quite some time.

In terms of attendance this was one of the better year. Five 20 way teams,
Five 10-way teams,  24  4-way teams (16 intermediate), and 10 8-way teams
(5 intermediate).

Dan BC was jumping again and doing very well with his team.

Some results:

10-way   As usual Carl Dauherties  (sp?) team won
20-way   The team with the Golden Knigts, and Airmoves and Juggernaut won
4-way    Deland vertical speed with Jack Jeffries won
8-way    Golden Knights took the first place as usual.

The 4-way was a tight race between golden Knigts Black and Deland Vertical
speed. At the tenth round it looked like the teams were tied, but the knights
got a bust on round 9, which gave Deland a 3 point lead. They got one more
point in round 10, so they took the gold with a 4 point lead. 
Deland is good, but not extremely fast, and they need much more practice if
they want to win the world meet. They had about 1000 practice jumps together,
and the Knight did about 600 jumps together. Keep in mind that most of those
were 8-way jumps, and they only did about 50 4 way jumps.

Remarkable was round 2.

The draw was 5, 14 , 8, which is black-hole bipole, bipole donut and 
canadian t canadian t.

According to the rules, the bipole will overlap, and blokcs 5 and 14 become
a three point block. Since most teams have standard ways of doing blocks,
nobody was paying attention to the fact that you cannot mirror one blokc
and not mirror the other one.  The make a long story short, 22 out of 24
teams did do the move wrong, and got busted every time around. The scores
were either 4 or 6 points. Two intermediate teams got it right, but this
is in my opinion only because they did not know the blocks, and just followed
the pictures.

The King Air sucks as an airplane because of the small door. As a result
the video people had problems with catching the first point, and there were
a significant number of rejumps.


-- 
Peter Kroon  D-12374

phone: (908) 582 7000 
Email: kroon@research.att.com
From: koning@koning.enet.dec.com (Paul Koning)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: Bungee ban/ sport questioned
Date: 10 Nov 92 22:30:15 GMT
Article-I.D.: engage.1992Nov10.223015.5376
Reply-To: koning@koning.enet.dec.com
Organization: Digital Equipment Co., distributed systems architecture


In article <1992Nov10.192652.21754@cascade.Stanford.EDU>, eap@everest.Stanford.EDU (Eric Perozziello) writes:
|>	TRENTON, N.J. (UPI) -- New Jersey's labor commissioner said Monday he
|>is considering a total ban on commercial bungee operations in the state.
|>...

I have no particular interest in doing bungee jumping.  And I would classify
it as an amusement ride, not a sport -- but I don't see what relevance that
question has to anything.

In any case, this sounds like potential bad news.  What's to prevent some
bureaucrat chairwarmer from trying to stomp on skydiving next?  Regulators
need to find new things to regulate all the time, how else to justify their
useless existence? 

I'd say this is something to oppose both on principle and on self-interest
(we might be next).

Meanwhile, John Stuart Mill must be spinning in his grave...

	paul, a-13683
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: eap@everest.Stanford.EDU (Eric Perozziello)
Subject: Re: Rigs on Airlines?
Organization: Center for Integrated Systems, Stanford University, California
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 92 20:21:32 GMT

>I think, from previous discussion:
>As long as you don't have any explosives on your rig (don't laugh.. some
>AAD's have them), then that eliminates ONE problem. 
>It is strongly recoomanded to get a gear-bag, so they might not even see.
>If they do see, it it up to the capt'n. Who posted the story, where the
>pilot refused to take the dude aboard or take off, until the parachute was
>stowed below?
>I don't think US airlines HAVE a policy. Get a gear bag and avoid the 
>confrontation.
>

The problems I've seen have been the xray operators seeing the metal
conduit for the reserve ripcord and cutaway.  This has triggered 
them to think "Bomb".  Then when you tell em it's a parachute, they
get even more upset. 


Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: stuart@fawlty.towers.oz.au (Stuart Walker)
Subject: Whereabouts of ...
Organization: Tower Technology, Sydney
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 05:34:16 GMT

I know this is not strictly-speaking the subject of this newsgroup, but I'm
trying to find the whereabouts of a friend of mine - Mick Galvin.  He jumps
at a DZ near San Francisco, I think it's called Lodi(?).

If anyone knows(of) him, could they say hello from me, and tell him to get
on the net...

Thanks,

Stuart.
-- 
_______________________________________________________________________________
Internet: stuart@fawlty.towers.oz.au			  Phone: +61 2 427 2999
UUCP:     uunet!fawlty.towers.oz.au!stuart		  Fax:   +61 2 427 7072
Snail:    Tower Technology
From: drp40@cd.amdahl.com (Doug Puchalski)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: Rigs on Airlines?
Date: 5 Nov 92 17:31:04 GMT
Reply-To: drp40@cd.amdahl.com
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale, CA

In article <1992Nov5.084827.3255@zia.aoc.nrao.edu>, dbriggs@zia.aoc.nrao.edu (Daniel Briggs) writes:

>And why are people so allergic to checking bags?  I've never had, or even
>seen a bag end up in the wrong place.  At worst, when I've had a last
>minute flight chance, I've arrived a few hours later than my bags did.
>When was the last time you heard of a bag being lost for good?

Well you have to ask yourself whether or not you are covered if something
*does* happen.  I'm sure that you won't get $3000 for a lost rig, or be
able to prove that you even had one in a bag that was broken into.

-- 
Doug Puchalski						   Death to all smileys
drp40@cd.amdahl.com
dpuchals@engin.umich.edu
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
From: ronb@cc.usu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: First jump $$$?
Date: 7 Nov 92 14:48:35 MDT
Organization: Utah State University

	This is probably an FAQ, but how much would a first jump tend to run?
 
	 "Time well spent is a waste indeed."
		 sniggerfardimungus
	     	in%"ronb@cc.usu.edu"
	 The usual disclaimers apply anywhere 
              you can find a sticky spot.
I'm not apt to be back on this group for awhile, so could you E-mail answere?
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving