From: bevans@carina.unm.edu (Mathemagician)
Subject: Re: Equal Male Rights
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 09:29:32 GMT
Organization: Society for the Preservation of E. coli

In article <1992Aug18.183212.29094@telebit.com> brunner@telebit.com (Eric Brunner) writes:
>In article <5p0m07=@lynx.unm.edu> bevans@carina.unm.edu (Mathemagician) writes:
>>But notice that he has to go to court to get custody of his child.

>Paternity needs to be established before the claiment, or presumptive
>father, has standing to bring a motion in family court. Ditto in order
>to meet the "parties at interest" test in dependency court.

I don't think you understand the point I was making.  Why does the
biological father of the child have to go to court to get custody of
his child?  I can understand in the possible case of questionable
parentage, but what about other cases?  The father's name ends up on
the birth certificate somehow...shouldn't that be enough to let him
have custody of the child if she doesn't want it?

>>She, on the other hand, simply has the child handed over.

>That dosen't completely describe a legal, voluntary adoptoin proceeding
>in California. In a legal adoption, some where, somehow, formal custody
>is surrendered and established by the two parties.

Again, I don't think you understand my point.  The biological mother
doesn't "adopt" the child.  After she gives birth, when she and the
baby are ready to leave, the nurses take the baby out of the nursery,
give it to her, and they both get wheeled out the door.  No lawyers,
no courts, no nothing.

Why is it that the biological father has to convince somebody to let
him have custody of his own children?

>>However, I'm a bit confused by the legalese.  What phrases in the
>>above paragraph relate to him being able to sue her for child support
>>should he wish to acquire custody of his own child?

>None, I didn't see the support question as being raised, only the custody
>question.

I added that question as an extension.  This thread has centered
around the options available for men and women when it comes to her
being pregnant.  She has the option of having the child and then suing
him for child support.  My question is, assuming that he ends up with
custody of this child, can he sue her for child support?  That is,
just what exactly is his standing when he gains custody?  Is he, for
these purposes, an "adoptive" parent?  You can't sue for support when
you adopt someone, but that child is his biological child, right?

>If the candidate adoptive parent appears unable to support the
>child, what point is there in going forward with the adoption? There are
>usually better alternatves than permenent placement with a party that
>intends to litigate child support, or requires both an order and the
>sucessful execution of the order, to bring up the child.

So what you are saying is that the father, if she has the child but
does not wish to keep it, is an "adoptive" parent rather than a
biological one?  This is what I was getting at.  There is a very
unequal status here.  When the biological mother has a child, she has
the right to keep it and go it alone, keep it and sue for child
support, or give it up for adoption and sever all rights and
responsibilites.  The biological father, on the other hand, is
completely at the mercy of the mother.  If she decides to keep it and
go it alone, he has to go to court to get visitation rights.  If she
doesn't want it, he has to go to court to get custody...as an adoptive
parent rather than as the biological parent.  Why shouldn't he also
have the right to "give it up for adoption," as it were, and sever all
rights and responsibilities?  Why should he have to go to court to get
custody of his own child if she doesn't want it?

>Is this a personal question? Are you seeking to prevent loosing custody
>to your child or are you asking on behalf of someone who is? If so you
>really should get local legal help. If not, let me know so I won't waste
>my time again.

No, it isn't a personal question.  I don't have children and don't
plan on having any.  I know of nobody who is in this particular
situation, personally.  I'm simply wondering what the situation is so
that when it comes up in conversation elsewhere (say, the "Sex and
Gender in Society" class here), I can be confident of my position.

-- 
Brian Evans                |     "Bad mood, bad mood...Sure I'm in a bad mood!
bevans@carina.unm.edu      |      I haven't had sex...*EVER!*" -- Virgin Mary