HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: dealing with a police officer
Date: 16 Dec 92 03:09:00 GMT
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA


	I have gotten a fair amount of mail on this, and the net
concensus is that, should I leave Iowa, I should roll down the
tinted window, turn off the motor, and keep my hands on the top
of the steering wheel.

	And to think, I was once excited about leaving Iowa for
some place with a bit of excitement!  On second thought, you can
all keep your excitement, and I'll keep the polite cops.

< Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu viking@iastate.edu >
<  ISU only censors what I read, not what I say.  Don't blame them.  >
<  "This isn't an answer, it's a pagan dance around a midnight fire  >
<   written in intellectual runes." -- Rich Young                    >
From: viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Gun blast noise in a car?
Date: 15 Dec 92 13:30:08 GMT
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA

boone@athena.cs.uga.edu (Roggie Boone) writes:

#When I was in college, I was basically kidnapped at gunpoint in my
#car.  (Luckily I was released unharmed).  I did not own a gun then
[ ... ]

#My question is, if one has to shoot inside a car (either at someone
#in your car, or through a windshield to get someone trying to get 
#into your car), how do you protect your ears (and those of passengers)
#from the blast noise?

#Or should one forget about the ears and just be happy to be alive
#(or pray the noise doesn't knock you out and cause you to run off
#the road and hit a tree)?

	Bingo!  To me, a slight loss of hearing is not worth notice
compared to being kidnapped.  Chances are, just as you don't notice
the recoil from your 12ga when you take that shot at a pheasant, you
won't notice the noise level either should your adrenalin be pumping
like mad in the above situation.  Later, you may find some loss of
hearing, but a hearing aid is much less than a funeral.

	Data Point: Jim Jesma, an ex-Force Recon Marine, MAC-SOG, all
around badass and somewhat stupid, watched the USS New Jersey main guns
fire.  He was around 3' behind and 6' below the muzzle of the #2 gun
of the #1 turret when it happened off the cost of Vietnam.  He regained
consciousness in a Hospital in Japan three days later, with the loss
of one eardrum.  His first thought was that the 16" guns were much
larger than the 105 Howitzers he was used to hearing.  His second was
a brief prayer of thanks that he can still hear.  While I *DO NOT*
advocate shooting without hearing protection, I think this shows that
the human ear can withstand a great deal of stress and, in my
opinion, a hearing aid is preferable to a funeral or virtually
anything else a kidnapper might do.

< Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu viking@iastate.edu >
<  ISU only censors what I read, not what I say.  Don't blame them.  >
<  "This isn't an answer, it's a pagan dance around a midnight fire  >
<   written in intellectual runes." -- Rich Young                    >
From: oz@ursa.sis.yorku.ca (Ozan Yigit)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: antique guns [remington]?
Date: 17 Dec 92 18:59:22 GMT
Organization: York U. Student Information Systems Project

Sometime ago, I owned of a ball-and-cap 1858 remington navy model
revolver, and had to let it go due to various considerations. I now
would like to get one again [a real one, as before, not a modern
replica], and I would appreciate some recommendations as to how and
where I should look for such a thing in the States, to get a fair deal
and so on.  Any information about reputable dealers, [I will be in
SanDiego in January] as well as location information (where in states
would be easier to find such revolvers) would be very useful.

[forgive me if there is a better newsgroup for this. I am not a
practicing gun collector, but have a keen interest for certain
historic weapons, civil war revolvers being one]

Please respond via e-mail. Thank you in advance.

oz
---
Always do right. This will gratify some | internet: oz@nexus.yorku.ca
people, and astonish the rest. M. Twain | phone: (416) 736 5257 33976
From: harp@netcom.com (Gregory O. Harp)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: A gun in the home....
Date: 14 Dec 92 14:15:39 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn) writes:


#In article <199212102240.AA19977@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> rob@spot.Colorado.EDU (Rob Cuthbertson) writes:
##I would hardly call this [Simplex] a secure lock.  ...

#Simplex locks can be manipulated open much faster than by going through
#all possible combinations.  I won't describe the procedure here, but it
#has been published in locksmith trade journals.

If the lockbox is just intended to deter a kid playing with the gun
(once s/he knows what a gun is and know not to touch it) it's OK if
the lock can be easily opened by a locksmith (or someone with such
knowledge).  Few kids have that knownledge, and I tend to agree with
those who say that using multiple simultaneous button-presses will
foil most exhaustive searches for the combination.  It would take a
high level of concentration and patience, something kids have little
of at an early age.

If you're trying to keep the gun from being stolen, no lockbox is good
enough.  You'd have to use a permanent safe (i.e. not a little
portable one).

#In general, all forms of "security through obscurity" are unsafe.
#The best policy seems to be to educate the child properly and also
#take reasonable, but not extreme, safety precautions such as not
#keeping a round in battery.  Before showing the effect of a bullet
#on a melon, it might be advisable to have the child paint a face
#on the melon and to give it a name, let him lug the melon to the
#range, etc.  That way he'll have developed some degree of personal
#attachment to the melon and the demonstration will have shock
#value rather than being viewed as just good fun.

Yeah, but the costs of putting the kid through counseling afterwards
make this option undesireable. ;)

Don't get me wrong.  I advocate educating a kid about guns.  I just
think shooting up their "pet" melon would be, well, traumatizing.  You
might say, "This is why you shouldn't play with guns."  <BANG> <splat>
"That's what can happen to a person."

I imagine that just shooting a melon, possibly resulting in a
spectacular display, would just spark a kid's interest.
-- 
-----------------Greg-Harp----------------harp@netcom.com------------------
  "I think I've reached that point / Where every word that you write /
  Of every blood dark sea / And every soul black night / And every dream
  you dream me in / And every perfect free from sin / And burning eyes /
  And hearts on fire / Are just the same old song" -- The Cure
From: fiddler@concertina.Eng.Sun.COM (steve hix)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .50BMG Bullpup?
Date: 17 Dec 92 12:19:15 GMT
Organization: Sun

In article <1992Dec14.235908.17868@phx.mcd.mot.com> mcdphx!systemname!gcall@enuucp.eas.asu.edu (Glen Call) writes:
#
#In article <921212063827_76334.1331_EHJ22-1@CompuServe.COM>, 76334.1331@CompuServe.COM (Brian Millin) writes:
#[stuff deleted]
#|> a tank gun or that .50BMG bullpup monster somebody just came out with.
#
#What have you heard about this?  I try to follow Barrett, but I'm not aware of
#anyone else making .50BMG weapons for the civilian market.

Not too sure about the bullpup, but Griffen-Maadi (Maadi-Griffen?) make a
fairly light .50BMG for civilian purchase.






--
-------------------------------------------------------
| Some things are too important not to give away      |
| to everybody else and have none left for yourself.  |
|------------------------ Dieter the car salesman-----|
From: erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: M1911 operation
Date: 18 Dec 92 01:56:24 GMT


As others have pointed out, I should have asked how to LOWER the hammer
on a loaded chamber, or DE-COCK the pistol with a loaded chamber. To
DROP the hammer on a single action one typically pulls the trigger -
thanks John :)

Anyway the consensus is that decocking an M1911 with a round in the
chamber requires two hands. Makes one appreciate the safety/decocking
lever on DA autos.


Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
Protect the Second Amendment - boycott Ruger products
Geordi: "...it's like the laws of physics went right out the
window." Q: "And why shouldn't they? They're so inconvenient."
From: jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Why no plastic cased .38 special?
Date: 19 Dec 92 00:24:19 GMT
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University

#From article <1992Dec16.113628.4692@michael.apple.com>, by ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith):
# Why are there no {rifle,pistol, revolver} rounds loaded in plastic
# cases?  Sure, we have the Aluminum Blazers, but why not plastic?
# 

There have been plastic (well, mostly plastic) .38 specials.  I read an
article about them about 2 or 3 years ago.  I think I saw some at the
range back then, but I don't know if they're still in business.  The
company had plans for other calibers at the time.

Then of course there are the plastic case/"bullet" practice rounds that
Speer makes ;-{).
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas Moore)
From: se08+@andrew.cmu.edu (Seth Adam Eliot)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Gun blast noise in a car?
Date: 16 Dec 92 03:08:57 GMT

Excerpts from netnews.rec.guns: 15-Dec-92 Gun blast noise in a car? by
Roggie Boone@athena.cs.u 
# My question is, if one has to shoot inside a car (either at someone
# in your car, or through a windshield to get someone trying to get 
# into your car), how do you protect your ears (and those of passengers)
# from the blast noise?
# Are certain loads "better" for noise suppression (and/or ricochet)
# or are certain guns preferable?
# Certainly, one would not want to fire a .357 magnum inside of a 
# closed auto, but it would be nice to disable the guy in one shot
# so that you don't have to fire again.
#  
# Or should one forget about the ears and just be happy to be alive
# (or pray the noise doesn't knock you out and cause you to run off
# the road and hit a tree)?

This brings up a good point that seems to be overlooked in most
discussions of The-Best-Defensive-Round.  Sure the .357 has a 95% one
stop probability (so I've heard anecdotally :-)  ) but would you want to
fire one without ear protection in a car, in your home, on the street? 
We're talking about some serious stunnning power here.

Secondly (and related), there's the issue of controlability.  Granted
I'm fairly new to this hobby, but I WAS loading full hot .357 (125 grain
federal JHP) in my bedside gun, UNTIL I tried some serious practice with
this load -- couldn't hit the broad side of a perp.  My solution is to
load up with the best +P .38 I can find until I become more proficient
with the "shoots-through-schools" .357.  And even THEN we come back to
the noise problem.  For a cop, wide awake and probably outside, OK.  But
I still don't think the .357 are a terribly good choice for indoor,
middle of the night (or kidnapped in a car) defense.

-Seth

__________________________________________________________________________
"Why am I dangerous?...
                    ...because I'm right!"     -Rush Limbaugh

Seth Eliot                    Dept of Material Science and Engineering
                              Carnegie Mellon Univerity,   Pittsburgh, PA
ARPA    :eliot+@cmu.edu       |------------------------------------------
   or    se08+@andrew.cmu.edu |
Bitnet:  se08%andrew@cmccvb   |      
------------------------------|
From: br105@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jeffrey A. Del Col)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: A 7mm BR rifle?
Date: 17 Dec 92 12:17:22 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)


Does anyone know of a rifle chambered for the 7mm Bench Rest 
Remington cartridge?  I would think it would make a handy
carbine with light recoil, good accuracy and the power to take
game up to deer in size, with the right loads.

What kind of bolt action would be suitable for such a project?
I would think a M98 would be too big.  A Remington 788 action
would be the ideal, but, unfortunately, they are no longer 
produced. 

Please E-mail any response.

J. Del Col
-- 
Jeff Del Col      *   DECONSTRUCTION--- the critical method invented      
A-B College       *                      by Procrustes  
Philippi, WV      *                             
                  *
From: sporay@adm.brl.mil (Ralph Sporay)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Colt or Springfield 1911A1
Date: 15 Dec 92 23:33:23 GMT
Organization: Ballistic Research Lab (BRL), APG, MD.


#In article <1992Dec12.162136.14448@slammer.UUCP> brad%slammer.UUCP@
#mathcs.emory.edu (Brad Isley) writes:

#This seems like a severe case of anal-retentiveness to me.
#"What?  You refuse to work on my Springfield?  Fine.  I'll spend my
#money somewhere else."
#I personally would not want such a gunsmith to work on my guns.

Not even Wilson's, Ed Brown, Woods, Bear (7/8" grp 50yds).

#I demand an objective attitude from a smith.  I can see it now:

If he's objective then he probably is working on Norincos and Auto-
Ordnance. Not a good <attitude>.

#"If this were a Colt, I'd spend more time on it.  Heck, it's a
#<brand-x>, so let's just get it over with and get is out of the shop."

Wrong, accuracy/reliability work costs the same between Colts and
<brand-x> but for a gunsmith time is money. Can you blame them for
not wanting to waste time on <brand-x> to get the guaranted sub 2"
group. Remember that the pistols that win matches are a billboard
advertisement with the gunsmith's name on the slide. Woods goes as
far as interviewing his clientele!

#hold their value very well. I now own two Colts.

#That's precisely why I bought a used Springfield.
#Just as good as a Colt (or better) for less money.
#Plus, it has such a BEAUTIFUL deep deep blue finish.

You probably own a Rossi and Tauras also, (no flames from Rossi or
Tauras owners). Or maybe plan on using Aguila ammunition at Camp Perry
it costs less money too.

#To each his own.

Exactly, I'm glad there are guy's out there that are willing to give
up NRA points so easy.

sporay@brl.army.mil
**************************************************************************
"Hey guys, when we're in London if you see any PIRA take their guns and
 shoot them like in the movie Patriot Games, so the Brits will think were
 heros." - identified Warrant Officer after the Nov 14th bombing
From: toby@carson.u.washington.edu (Toby Bradshaw)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: A 7mm BR rifle?
Date: 17 Dec 92 18:59:24 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <1gnh6cINN27i@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> br105@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jeffrey A. Del Col) writes:
#
#Does anyone know of a rifle chambered for the 7mm Bench Rest 
#Remington cartridge?  I would think it would make a handy
#carbine with light recoil, good accuracy and the power to take
#game up to deer in size, with the right loads.
#
#What kind of bolt action would be suitable for such a project?

A Sako Vixen (L-461?) with the boltface opened to .473 would be
tops, as the BR cases are only 1.5" (1/4" less than a .223).
I'd look at the Mini Mark X, which costs about half what the
Sako does.  The Mark X might even have the right boltface available.

#A Remington 788 action would be the ideal, but, unfortunately,
#they are no longer produced. 

Widely available used, though.  The Rem Model 7 is about the same
length as the 788, and is the same length as the XP-100 action
but has a regular bolt handle instead of the butt-ugly dogleg
XP bolt.  The Model 7 is available with the .473 boltface,
and mine (a .223) shoots pretty well for a carbine-length sporter.
Unlike the 788, it's easy to get all the bolt lugs (2) on a
Model 7 touching the lug abutments.

Toby Bradshaw
Department of Biochemistry and College of Forest Resources
University of Washington, Seattle
toby@u.washington.edu

"A well-educated electorate being necessary to the prosperity of
a free state, the right of the people to keep and read books, shall
not be infringed." Do you think that banning legal possession of
easily-concealed novels will stop criminals from reading?
From: callison@essex.ecn.uoknor.edu (James P. Callison)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: More on dry firing
Date: 18 Dec 92 13:35:49 GMT
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA

In article <1992Dec16.204937.2849@bluemoon.use.com> grant@bluemoon.use.com (Grant DeLorean) writes:
#hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath) writes:
##In article <921212063832_76334.1331_EHJ22-2@CompuServe.COM> 76334.1331@CompuServe.COM (Brian Millin) writes:
##}
##}USPSA rules state that the procedure for "hammer down" is to drop the
##}hammer by means of the trigger. There is even a provision for pistols with
##}a magazine safety - you put in an empty mag and then do the deed.
##}There aren't many shooters around with more money in their pistols than
##}IPSC shooters, and they are REQUIRED to dry fire at least once each time
##}they run a stage.
##}So there.			
#
##Well, _I'm_ going to use the decocker lever as God and SIG intended, rules
##or no rules.
##Harumph! (-:
##(Seriously, would this be a rules violation?  Sounds pretty silly, if so).
#
# Yes, it doesn't prove the gun is empty...

How about getting a dowel with a flat plate on the end, cut to the length
of the barrel with the chamber empty? That way, you'll know the chamber is
empty (it'll leave a 9mm/.45ACP/.38Super/whatever-cartridge length of
dowel sticking out the end if it's not empty), and you can drop the 
hammer, and the dowel will protect the firing pin.
Aside from the basic unsafeness of obstructing the barrel...
Also, on a Beretta, you can tell if the chamber's empty or not
by looking at the indicator on the extractor. If there's a round in
the chamber, there's a little red mark exposed; if the mark's not
exposed, there's no round down the chute.
Does this mean that IPSC rules would require me to go against the 
instructions of the manual of my Beretta, since the manual specifically
says to use dummy rounds for dry-firing...

					James

James P. Callison       Microcomputer Coordinator        OU Law Library 
Callison@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu   /\    Callison@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu
	constellation!biglaw!callison@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu
DISCLAIMER: I'm not an engineer, but I play one at work...
	Your self esteem is enhanced by remaining an ignoramus?
	Please! Let's call it "informationally impaired."
		--Hobbes and Calvin, "Calvin and Hobbes"
From: jamaass@bluemoon.use.com (Jeffrey A. Maass)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: which progressive reloader to buy
Date: 12 Dec 92 00:19:56 GMT
Organization: Blue Moon BBS ((614) 868-998[024])

cmort@ncoast.org (Christopher Morton) writes:

# As quoted from <1992Dec6.230449.2062@hubcap.clemson.edu> by brcarls@hubcap.cl
# 
# # I know the Dillon is a great machine but I for one can't fork out $1000 for
# # a 1050.
# 
# Who says you have to get a 1050?  I've got a 550B and it does more than well
# enough.  I can turn out 300 rounds an hour of 9mm without even breaking a
# sweat.
# 
# It's very rugged.
# It's easy to change calibers.
# You can do numerous rifle calibers with it.  Going from .45acp to .30-06 
# requires only a change of tool head.  If you have two powder measures, you
# don't even have to monkey with the measure other than to set it.  I keep one
# for pistol and one for rifle.
# 
# A complete 550B setup should be under $500.00, NOT $1000.  The 650 is only a
# bit more.
# 

For reference, my XL-650, including a set of .45ACP dies, the
powder check die, and the case feeder was $604.


Jeff Maass                   Amateur Radio: K8ND (@ W8CQK)
Powell OH (NW of Columbus)         Netmail: jamaass@bluemoon.uucp
From: scot@hpfcla.fc.hp.com (Scot Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 9mm reloading question
Date: 15 Dec 92 23:33:29 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Fort Collins Site

There is something dramatically different about loading these rounds.  The
357 is a rimmed case and head spaces from the rim.  The 9mm is a rimless
case and head spaces on the case mouth.  This means you have to leave a
square enough material for the mouth to engage the chamber.  This is a
little tricky, I trim all my cases before loading and set my crimp die
carefully and have never had a problem.

Good luck

-Scot
From: cash@convex.com (Peter Cash)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: 9mm M-1 Carbine?
Date: 19 Dec 92 22:48:19 GMT
Organization: The Instrumentality

I've heard that someone once made--or makes-- an M-1 carbine chambered for
9mm parabellum. Since it strikes me that this could possibly be a Good
Thing To Have (tm), I'd appreciate any information anyone has about this
critter. 

I _think_ it was/is made by Iver Johnson, but I can't find any references
to it in my books at home. I'd like to know if these things are still being
made, and what I can expect to pay for one. Also, if you've shot one, I'd
like to know about reliability, accuracy, and quality.

Yes, I know about the Marlin Camp Carbine, and that's a possibility also.
However, I'd prefer a gas-operated M-1 style gun, since I have a theory
that it would not have the drawback of shooting as "dirty" as the Camp
Carbine. (Refutations of my theory are welcome 8^)


-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
             |      Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist.     |
Peter Cash   |       (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein)      |cash@convex.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: bobd@marune.acs.ohio-state.edu (Bob DeBula)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Lead and Brass in Mug (was: Lead in brass confirmed, news at 11)
Date: 17 Dec 92 18:59:27 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University

In article <BzDG4H.F44@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu> callison@essex.ecn.uoknor.edu (James P. Callison) writes:
#In article <1992Dec16.113041.4610@michael.apple.com> ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith) writes:
#<stuff about lead in brass in faucets deleted>
#
##(I guess brass coffee mugs are out too ...)
#
#Speaking of....has anybody else out there seen the Remington mug o' .22s?
#(I don't think it's really called that :-). It's a coffee mug full of
#Remington .22lr (in a plastic bag...), and there's a painting on one side,
#with a toast to hunting dogs on the other. It also seems like there's
#the Remington logo on it, but that may have been the plastic packaging.
#I didn't ask the price; I was on my way out to put my new Hogue grips
#on my SIG--they're _WONDERFUL_, but that's another post. :-)
#It'd probably make a good Christmas gift for a hunter you know.
#

Yes, I've seen them at the past few shows. They seem to go for
between $13 and $15 each. I would guess that the mug holds 
approximately 200 to 250 rounds of .22lr.  I was thinking
of picking some up as gifts for friends :-). After Christmas, I 
would think they'll see steep discounting (maybe I'll pick some
up then for presents next year :).

-- 
==========================================================================
              Disclaimer: These are my views, not the U's

        "If it's in the paper it must be true!" --- D. Doright