HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Josh 'K' Hopkins)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: SETI functional grammer
Keywords: SETI communication grammer and syntax Sagan
Date: 13 Oct 92 20:40:01 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.Bw2uqs.840
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

gwilliam@crc.ac.uk (Gary Williams x3294) writes:

>Has anyone ever worked on detailed grammer, syntax and vocabulary
>of messages that we could send to ETI's?

Right now I think we're still trying to determine ways to decide whether a 
given signal is of intelligent orgin and how to show basic concepts.

>I know that various plaques etc.  have been bolted to spacecraft, but
>I'm interested in any work that has been done on defining 'languages'
>that we might use to send complex concepts out to 'them'. 

Sagan's "Cosmos" has a picture of the message sent from Arecibo.

>The more I think about it the more difficult it seems to get past simple
>verbs and mathematics - so much of our languages assume concepts held in
>common and so everything would have to be defined (how rigidly?) even if
>it seems obvious.

Saying this is very hard is an understatement :-)  And rember that it may take
a few centuries to say "Sorry, I didn't catch that..."

I ran across a thought experiment once where the prototype teleporting machine
ends up on an alien planet and won't come back.  How do you tell the aliens
to press the right (manual override) button and not the left (self destruct)
button?  I couldn't figure a way out.

-- 
Josh Hopkins                                          jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
	 The views expresed above do not necessarily reflect those of
ISDS, UIUC, NSS, IBM FSC, NCSA, NMSU, AIAA or the American Association for the
                      Advancement of Acronymphomaniacs
From: David.Anderman@ofa123.fidonet.org
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Luna 10
Date: 15 Oct 92 07:00:10 GMT
X-Sender: newtout 0.02 Oct  1 1992

There has much speculation recently about the possibility of ice in deep 
craters at the poles of the Moon. There are two means of determining
whether primeval ice exists at these locations: 1) searching all polar
craters, either by robotic rover or astronauts, or 2) use of remote 
sensing instruments in polar lunar orbit.
 
No spacecraft equipped with a gamma spectrometer has ever orbited over
the poles of the Moon, according to those who propose that the USA
undertake a new lunar mission that would carry scientific instruments
into a polar lunar orbit.
 
However, the Soviet Union launched a spacecraft that carried a gamma
spectrometer into a polar lunar orbit (71 degrees inclination), back
in 1966. Has anyone ever seen the data from this instrument? I presume
that the Soviets didn't bother to look for lunar ice back in the 1960's.
 
 
 

--- Maximus 2.00
Newsgroups: sci.space
From: gwilliam@crc.ac.uk (Gary Williams x3294)
Subject: SETI functional grammer
Keywords: SETI communication grammer and syntax Sagan
Organization: MRC Human Genome Resource Centre
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 14:02:39 GMT


Has anyone ever worked on detailed grammer, syntax and vocabulary
of messages that we could send to ETI's?

I know that various plaques etc.  have been bolted to spacecraft, but
I'm interested in any work that has been done on defining 'languages'
that we might use to send complex concepts out to 'them'. 

The only thing that springs to mind is Carl Sagan's description of the
fictional message sent by his aliens in the book 'Contact'.  This
involved lots of pages consisting of pictures and numbers with the
numbers referring to pages which defined the concept on that page etc. 
It involved lots of things like simple video sequences to define verbs
etc. 

The more I think about it the more difficult it seems to get past simple
verbs and mathematics - so much of our languages assume concepts held in
common and so everything would have to be defined (how rigidly?) even if
it seems obvious.  The artificial intelligence people have probably come
across the same sort of problems when attempting to describe the real
world to their programs.  Perhaps they have insights on how such a
language might be constructed and what it should involve?


-- 
GARY WILLIAMS,  Computing Services Section,  Janet:       G.Williams@UK.AC.CRC
MRC-CRC & Human Genome Mapping Centre,       Internet:    G.Williams@CRC.AC.UK
Watford Rd, HARROW, Middx, HA1 3UJ, UK
Tel 081-869 3294   Fax 081-423 1275
Organization: none known
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1992 19:52:31 EDT
From: stuart goldman <SAG101@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: Lecture Summary: What if SETI Succeeds, myth that we're prepared (

     Mr. White implies that we should claim 'Personal Space' as a right.  What
 about normal flight?  Doesn't this come under our rights as well?  If this is
 so then shouldn't something like the FAA be created for Space Travel?
     But if we were to have what you propose in normal flight, then what about
 all of the risks that are entailed with that?  Look at people when they drive
 an automobile.  Look at the amount of recklessness and stupidity that occurs
 on a daily basis there.  Between drunk driving, speeding (not that I have
 never speeded) and deaths on the road on a daily basis, and that's in two
 dimensions.  What would happen if everyone had access to an airplane?  Then
 they're succeptable to collision in three dimensions... then deal with space
 travel:  you have people who would get space sick and not realize it, you
 would have the 'rich guy on the block' throwing parties on his brand new
 Buick Spacelark Deluxe and 'orbiting' drunk, landing drunk, etc.
     Don't you think there is a better way to take advantage of space other
 than attempting to go about it in this manner?

     Stuart Goldman

     sag101@psuvm.psu.edu
     goldman@crayola.cs.psu.edu
     goldman@cs.psu.edu

  " What's a human?  It's a delicious, nutricious snack that tastes just like
        chicken!!"
              -- Fern Gulley
From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Drop nuc waste into sun
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 16:43:55 GMT
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology

In article <BvuzKs.Iqr.1@cs.cmu.edu> ssi!lfa@uunet.UU.NET ("Louis F. Adornato") writes:
>1 - The initial change in orbital veliocity (wrt the sun) only needs to be
>    large enough to drop apahelion to the orbit of Venus (about .5 au,
>    if I recall correctly).  From there a gravity assist maneuver can
>    be used to provide the remaining delta-v.

I don't think you can actually get into the Sun with a Venus gravity assist,
although you can get as far as Mercury.  With Venus aeroassist, you should
be able to do it.  It's got the same problem as doing a Jupiter gravity
assist, though:  now each waste container has to be a maneuverable
interplanetary spacecraft capable of precision navigation, rather than
just a tin can full of waste.

Actually, as Larry Niven pointed out, if you can get the stuff as far as
Venus, you might as well just fly it *into* Venus.  It's not as if Venus
is good for anything else.  (Although one would want to do rather more
thorough studies of Venus before starting to use it as a dump...)
-- 
MS-DOS is the OS/360 of the 1980s.      | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
              -Hal W. Hardenbergh (1985)|  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry
From: bill.nunnelee@the-matrix.com (Bill Nunnelee) 
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: RE: MYSTERY OBJECT
Date: 6 Oct 92 22:38:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The MATRIX BBS - Birmingham, AL - 205-323-2016
Reply-To: bill.nunnelee@the-matrix.com (Bill Nunnelee) 

-> The latest packet from Goddard came today and object #20961 was
-> listed as having reentered on Sep 30.
->
-> Object 20961 was a Navstar GPS booster rocket.  Its designation was
-> 90 103C.  The Navstar GPS 2A-01 was launched on Nov 26, 1990.  This
-> booster rocket is listed in the RAE tables as being 2.3 meters long
-> and 1.5 meters in diameter.  It is called a PAM-D.

Thanks for the info!  I've never seen any reentering space junk before.
From: titan@sys6626.bison.mb.ca (Titanium Knight)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: HRMS
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 92 05:02:56 CST
Organization: System 6626 BBS, Winnipeg Manitoba Canada

So, why is the U.S. spending money on HRMS when they have already been
visited by ET's?  (supposedly)  Dosen't make sense to me.  Well, I 
it would be nice to see what else is out there.  Hmm.. 
 
Titan  :-)
Newsgroups: sci.space
From: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu (Doug Mohney)
Subject: Re: LunaOne: Beyond Boostrap
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 92 20:54:21 GMT
Organization: Computer Aided Design Lab, U. of Maryland College Park
Distribution: sci
Reply-To: sysmgr@king.eng.umd.edu

In article <Bw0vo7.5Ct.1@cs.cmu.edu>, amon@elegabalus.cs.qub.ac.uk writes:
>
>All that said, I'm not sure I'd see much market for complex chips on  
>the moon and I doubt they could compete (within the next 30 years)  
>with Earth based technology as an export unless there was a big R&D  
>base and the Lunies kept their own trade secrets.

Export, no. Avoid importing from Earth, yes. 

                 Play in the intelluctual sandbox of Usenet 

  -- >                  SYSMGR@CADLAB.ENG.UMD.EDU                        < --
Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro,alt.sci.planetary
From: knapp@spot.Colorado.EDU (David Knapp)
Subject: It's dead, Jim. (was Re: Pioneer Venus)
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 15:46:46 GMT

In article <1992Oct9.064506.2890@ericsson.se> Thomas.Enblom@eos.ericsson.se writes:
>I've just read Ron Baalkes message about the Pioneer Venus probe is still alive.
>Could someone give me some details about this object.
>For example, how old it is, its mission and so on. I don't know a thing about it.


We lost radio lock with PVO Thursday. The s/c endured drags of >2m/s while
maintaining lock to that point.  Looks like it's all over.

Details on the s/c and the mission have been posted here and in alt.sci.
planetary over the last few weeks.



-- 
David Knapp                                      University of Colorado, Boulder
Perpetual Student                                   knapp@spot.colorado.edu
Newsgroups: sci.space
From: szabo@techbook.com (Nick Szabo)
Subject: Re: Bootstrap hardware for LunaBase
Organization: TECHbooks --- Public Access UNIX --- (503) 220-0636
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 13:04:55 GMT

In article <ewright.719013536@convex.convex.com> ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright) writes:

>You snub comm sats in favor of mining the asteroids.

Huh?  Not at all.  I promote them both.  Furthermore, I think that
asteroid mining missions (and the volatile extraction missions that
will likely precede them) should use the same launchers as comsats,
instead of demanding their own special-purpose hardware.  That's
one big reason why comsats and the military are so important.  New 
large-scale commercial enterprises can't afford to build from scratch, 
and with a thriving, sharing space community there is no need for them to 
do so.  I have a big problem with proposals like SSF and FLO that soak up 
huge chunks of the budget in their own enclosed, built-from-scratch world, 
the result being they don't provide any benefits or economies of scale 
for other space users.  They are parasitic instead of symbiotic.

>Or maybe, just maybe, Nick, they have enough imagination to believe
>that space is big enough for more than *one* businesses.

I've dreamed up over a dozen original concepts which I've posted here,
while you repeat ancient dogma.  I've got you beat cold in the
imagination category. The issue here is the economic validity of these 
plans, the net present value that pops out of the spreadsheet.  That, 
more than any other single factor, is what will turn imagination into reality.

>Meanwhile, you refuse to be pinned down about any of the holes
>in your scheme, which depends on the commercial availability of
>AI technologies that don't exist even in the laboratory.

Automated volatile extraction requires good controls and high
reliability.  It does not require "AI", the definition
of which seems to be "the hard problems" -- as soon as
they're solved they're no longer AI.


-- 
Nick Szabo					 szabo@techboook.com
Hold Your Nose: vote Republocrat  ////////  Breathe Free: vote Libertarian
From: mwgoodman@igc.apc.org (Mark Goodman)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: What use is Freedom?
Date: 10 Oct 92 23:54:00 GMT
Nf-ID: #R:Bvs500.7F4.1@cs.cmu.edu:-202340851:cdp:1469100023:000:636
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!mwgoodman    Oct 10 16:54:00 1992


To:    sci.space
From:  Mark W. Goodman (mwgoodman@igc.org)
Re:    What Good Is Freedom?
Date:  10/9/92

I have followed this thread with some amusement.  The answers
offered to the question "What good is Fred?" seem to focus on the
question of its size.  What does that have to do with anything?

The question ought to be: "What useful things can you do with
Fred?"  Size may be an issue, but in the tradeoff of capability
versus cost, bigger is not obviously better.

So does anyone care to venture an answer to the question as I have
posed it?

--
Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose.
(the space scientist's lament)
Newsgroups: sci.space
From: fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary)
Subject: Re: what use is Freedom?
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 15:51:43 GMT

In article <1992Oct7.031717.19507@den.mmc.com> whitmeye@den.mmc.com (Richard Whitmeyer) writes:
>1.   How come the interior appointments create the same impact on the senses
>     as my new Kenmore fridge?  I mean, were's the softness? Any wood grain?

NASA and their contractors have no style? No, seriously, that kind of 
detail can be good or bad: The guy who has to live there might _hate_
wood furnature (or whatever other nice detail was added). The idea is
to make something the astronaut could live with, without knowing anything
about the astronaut's tastes or preferences. That means bland is the
solution...

>2.   Any plans for one in polar orbit? (I'm at Vandenberg, so there 'may be'
>     some self interests in this question.)

Not any manned facillities. The Europeans have been playing with the 
idea of an unmanned platform in a polar orbit, but this looks unlikely
at this point.

>3.   What happened to the large service bays visible on the early models?

Gone. They never made a final design. If the post-PMC budgets exist at
all, they might be added.

>5.   How visible will this thing be from the ground?

Very, in fact is should be visable as more than a point (e.g. as a I--I
shape.) But it will be close to the horizon in most of the United States.

>6.   How big can it get, when the currently planned size is too crowded?

The current design will house 4 at PMC and 8 at EMCC (which isn't funded
at the moment.) There is space for further expansion, but no plans
or money for this.

                                               Frank Crary
                                               CU Boulder

Newsgroups: sci.space
From: dfm4989@tm0006.lerc.nasa.gov (Donald F. Martin)
Subject: Re: NASA bugets....etc
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center / Cleveland, Ohio
Date: 16 Oct 1992 14:52 EST  

In article <92289.124055WAF102@psuvm.psu.edu>, William Fabanich <WAF102@psuvm.psu.edu> writes...
>I would like any info you experts might know of the top of your heads...or wher
>e to find it...about NASA bugets/ Military space bugets...and any comparison wi
>th other governement agencies....something for me to show that the amount we sp
>ent on space is not really enough to solve all our countries ills.
>  Thanx!
>    Bill Fabs
> 
NASA's budget is approximately 1 to 2 percent of the Federal Budget.
Newsgroups: sci.space
From: bschlesinger@nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov (Barry Schlesinger)
Subject: Re: Alleged Benefits of Military $
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: NASA - Goddard Space Flight Center
Distribution: sci
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 19:45:00 GMT

There was a study some years back sponsored by the Machinists union.  
They concluded that military spending was detrimental to the economy 
in three ways.

1. The creative talent paid for went for military innovation instead 
of the kind of innovation that would improve the competitiveness of 
the civilian economy.  Research talent was lost to American business.

2. The money paid to the workers producing military goods added 
spending power to the economy but produced nothing for the income to 
be spent on.  That meant inflation.

3. (and most relevant to the discussion at hand) Military spending was 
capital intensive rather than labor intensive.  That is, comparing 
money spent on military projects with that spent other ways, a greater 
fraction of the money on military projects went into producing things 
rather than paying people to do the work. 
				my views only
From: amon@elegabalus.cs.qub.ac.uk
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Re: Laser Space Mirror
Date: 7 Oct 92 16:47:18 GMT
Article-I.D.: cs.BvrGs5.9q3.1
Distribution: sci
Organization: [via International Space University]
X-Added: Forwarded by Space Digest
Original-Sender: isu@VACATION.VENARI.CS.CMU.EDU

> It occured to me two years ago that a very large solar sail could  
be
> used as a giant bill-board in the nighttime sky.  At $50 million
> dollars (excluding launch) you'd probably get some takers and still
> make a profit.  It was a silly notion (I'm sure greenpeace would
> concur), but if anyone has some venture capital - I'm free come 

> one year's time... :-)
> 


If someone is willing to pay for it, it is, by definition, NOT a  
silly notion. If there were no takers after a bit of PR and marketing  
hype, THEN I'd agree that it was a silly notion.

The secret to opening the space frontier is to be found in plastic  
mounted bits of old satellites; pet moon rocks; committing ashes to  
the deep; asteroid desk sets (Ceres, Vesta, Pallas... Collect em!  
Trade em with your friends!); garbage disposal... and so forth.
From: jsmith@mcs.drexel.edu (Justin Smith)
Newsgroups: sci.space
Subject: Cosmic strings
Date: 13 Oct 92 21:09:59 GMT
Organization: Drexel University


Are any cosmic strings known (or believed) to exist?
-- 
Justin R. Smith
Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
Drexel University
Philadelphia, PA 19104                    (215) 895-1847
Newsgroups: sci.space
From: trebor@foretune.co.jp (Robert J Woodhead)
Subject: Re: SETI functional grammer
Keywords: SETI communication grammer and syntax Sagan
Organization: Foretune Co., Ltd.
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 05:06:43 GMT

jbh55289@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Josh 'K' Hopkins) writes:

>I ran across a thought experiment once where the prototype teleporting machine
>ends up on an alien planet and won't come back.  How do you tell the aliens
>to press the right (manual override) button and not the left (self destruct)
>button?  I couldn't figure a way out.

Describe it in terms of physical properties, including the RIGHT-HAND
rule.

Physics is the same (almost) everywhere.
-- 
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ 
| Robert J. Woodhead, Biar Games / AnimEigo, Incs.    trebor@foretune.co.jp |
|  Fundamental Mistakes in the design of the World's User Interface, #3217  |
|                   "Elevators don't have CANCEL buttons"                   | 
Xref: sparky sci.space:14282 sci.astro:10580
From: dnash@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Dave Nash)
Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.astro
Subject: Re: SETI positive?
Date: 9 Oct 92 21:36:24 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.BvvIor.Ey7
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

In article <1992Oct9.142810@IASTATE.EDU> danwell@IASTATE.EDU (Daniel A Ashlock) writes:

>   Curiosity: why yellow?  Don't main sequence orange and red stars last longer
>than yellow ones?  Is there some reson to think cooler stars than the sun won't
>develop technological civilizations?


The red and orange guys _do_ last longer -- a lot longer, in most cases --
but as I (perhaps wrongly) understand it, really small stars (e.g., Proxima
Centauri or Barnard's Star) are so feeble that a planet close enough to the
star to receive enough energy from it to be Earthlike (warm enough for liquid
water, e.g.) would become slowed by tides until its rotation period equals its
year.  Much like the case with our Moon, which is "locked" in this manner to
the Earth.  This means one hemisphere of the planet will permanently
face the star and... well, you could guess the rest.  An interesting
book called _Habitable Planets for Man_  (I forget the author) makes a 
back-o'-the-envelope calculation of the sorts of conditions required for this,
and concludes that  the smallest star that can avoid the problems with
tidal locking is a K2 main sequence star -- about like Epsilon Eridani, but
much more luminous than red dwarfs, which are M class. 

This was, of course, a rough estimate, but if the tidal-locking idea is correct
then it appears essentially all M (red) and most K (orange) dwarfs would not be
the most suitable candidates for _originating_ extraterrestrial life.

Any one out there with more knowledge of this possible problem?  I only have 
the argument from this one book and I'm not sure if there are any more recent
arguments for or against the tidal-locking idea.

>   For that matter, wouldn't _any_ star system be a candidate for an
>automated communications relay left by a self reproducing probe?  A 

Yeah, at least till it goes supernova or red giant (grin)...

>Dan
>Danwell@IASTATE.EDU


-- 
David Nash                  | Gradual Student, Chemistry
                            | University of Illinois (Urbana)
(dnash@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu)    | This .sig is made of 100% recycled electrons.
(nash@aries.scs.uiuc.edu)   | No binary trees were killed to make it.
Newsgroups: sci.space
From: gdavis@griffin.uvm.edu (Gary Davis)
Subject: UFO? REALLY?
Organization: University of Vermont -- Division of EMBA Computer Facility
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 17:28:30 GMT

 I've always been fascinated with the hypothesis that other civilizations
have visted Earth via a worm hole or other cosmic anomoly,but has anyone
ever with true open mind investigated the evidence? Most if not all of the
media have hopelessly been swallowed up in garbage. I am told that there
are at least a few unexplained events which Blue Book has classified as
unknowns. (Not that this in and of itself means we have been visted)
I wonder if anyone has information concerning the rather strange event
in New Mexico circ 1988. I think it involved a group of loggers with
one man disappearing for a week and then relating an abduction tale.
His companions,I believe were cleared on a polygraph and he later,taking
same showed ambiguous results. The first try was a flunk and second tries
passed. (Perhaps he was just nervous).

In any event,there most be some intermediate ground between the Amazing
Randy specticisms and the Inquirer tom foolery?
Is there any author who truly has investigated the issue with an open mind?


--
                     Gary E. Davis WQ1F (On AO13)
        University of Vermont  Land Liner's dial 802-656-1916
 References " The Joys of Rumination Without The Cud", Elsie circa 1965
Newsgroups: sci.space,sci.research,sci.physics,sci.med,sci.engr.chem,sci.chem,sci.astro
From: tahsin@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu (Tahsin I. Alam)
Subject: Re: the development and change of the soft-and-hardwsre programms for electronic computers and microcontrollers.
Organization: Brandeis University
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 06:44:26 GMT


Hi:

Is there any algorithm or any research paper on calculating volumes of
n-dimensional convex polyhedra? Any info would help.

I would appreciate it if you could send the reply directly to me at
the following address:

tahsin@cs.brandeis.edu
Thanx,

-- 

ma'as-salama (Goodbye in Arabic, literally "With peace ... ")
Tahsin I. Alam

Newsgroups: sci.space
From: palmer@sfu.ca (Leigh Palmer)
Subject: Re: Earth's two moons
Organization: Simon Fraser University
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 23:19:28 GMT

In article <Bw8Gn4.1wJ@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> cocking@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Cara
Cocking) writes:
>
> I took an astronomy class in high school and my teacher told us that
> Earth really has two moons but that the other one can't be seen unaided
> because it's a lot smaller and farther out. 
>
> I've been telling some people that Earth has two moons but no one 
> believes me.  Could someone please confirm this?

Question Authority.

Leigh