HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Sat, 3 Oct 1992 14:39:17 EDT
From:         "Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support,
              x8425" <tillman@SWDEV.SI.COM>
Subject:      Re: Women are unclean

Vince, this is hogwash: "a woman can't be a priest because it wouldn't be
"right" .  she can't be jesus because jesus was a man."  Jesus was also a Jew
and Hebrew.  Let's assume your faulty logic is correct.  Now, if the priest
"becomes" Jesus, he also becomes a Jew and Hebrew (an Israeli).  Now, since he's
a Jew, he is no longer qualified to consecrate the elements.  Thus the
consecration is invalid.  Do you really believe this?  I'd hazard that you do
not.  Thus, you cannot support the denial of a woman's calling by God to the
ministry by saying Jesus had a certain trait, since one can always find a trait
of Jesus that most priests don't share.  The only true reason preventing women
from being ordained is the perceived (and non-existent) threat the current
hierarchy of the church feel.  They just don't wish to give up their monopoly on
"holiness."

-----------------------------+--------------------------------
 Brian Tillman               | Internet: tillman@swdev.si.com
 Smiths Industries, Inc.     |           tillman_brian@si.com
 4141 Eastern Ave., MS129    | Hey, I said this stuff myself.
 Grand Rapids, MI 49518-8727 | My company has no part in it.
-----------------------------+--------------------------------
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: bdboyle@erenj.com (Bryan D. Boyle)
Subject: Re: Lay leadership of communion services
Organization: Exxon Research and Engineering Co., NJ
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 16:30:24 GMT

In article <920930120526.28e02e65@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM> URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM writes:
>This is an interesting concept. Our parish has recently gone down to one
>priest, however we do have a parishioner who is a deacon. Is there any
>chance that the bishop could delegate his authority to a deacon to celebrate
>the Mass. I suppose there is some rule about transubstantiation only occurring
>with a priest or higher, but can this be modified or waivered under special
>circumstances? Or am I blaspheming again:-) - J.J.

only a priest can consecrate the bread and wine into the Eurharist, and
celebrate the mass.

The permanent deacon can, however, perform other sacrimental services
under his order.  A good canonical explanation can be found in the
revised code-

Bryan

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Organization: Argus Consulting, Tucson, AZ
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.4 2/2/92)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1992 00:00:09 -0700
From:         "(Gordon C. Zaft)" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>
Subject:      Re: Picking on altar servers and Jesuits now
              (Sep 25, 10:16am)

On Sep 25, 10:16am, URSIC@ALF.CS.HH.AB.COM wrote:
} Subject: Picking on altar servers and Jesuits now
} Gordon = >
} Me = }
} Bryan = } >
} } Subject: Let's pick on altar servers now
} }
} } Gee, women as equals, novel idea:-) So, Bryan, did God become human just
} } to save men? What is the significance of the race, sex, eye color, etc.,
} } that God chose when he became human? Or is it that you don't consider
} } females as human? ;-)
} } The fact that my son and daughters can all be altar servers gives me
} } some hope for the future of the Church.
}
} >	Females are not to be altar servers because they can't be
} >priests.  This abuse has been condemned by the Vatican.
}
} Gordon, do you really believe this or are you just following orders?
} Must you intend to become a priest to be an altar server?
} Is being an altar server a prerequisite to being a priest?
}
} What exactly is it that you feel a woman can't do in fufilling the role
} of a priest? How important were Christ's physical characteristics to us?
}
} Perhaps if any of the duties of a priest were performed in the nude or
} if any of the organs of the reproductive systems played a role in a
} priests duties, I may see a point to this otherwise blantant sexist
} 'policy' of the Church. 1/2:-)
}-- End of excerpt from URSIC@ALF.CS.HH.AB.COM

	Well, I thought we had argued this pretty thoroughly before
and I'm really too tired of it to start all over....

	The Church says women can't be priests or altar servers. Period.


GZ

--
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
                 Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.
It's better to burn out than it is to rust.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: pol30546@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Peder Larsen)
Subject: Re: sinead o'connor
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 22:15:08 GMT

mayo@CS.UTK.EDU writes:

>Yes, I saw the insult to our Holy Father as well.  I was outraged, and
>immediately prayed for Sinead O'Connor.  I called my husband into the
>room, and could hardly describe what I had seen.  I felt physical pain.
>I plan to offer sacrifice in reparation for her offense and am praying
>about whether or not to write the network.  Does anyone have the address?

I think I'll have the address within 24 hours.  I'll post it as soon as I
get it.  NBC has been flooded with calls already about Sinead and EVERY
one was negative in nature.

From the rock-n-roll newsgroup: people are now saying that she is upset with
the Catholic Church for MANY reasons (apparently the Church is the source
of everything evil in her eyes, with the Pope being the embodiment of that
evil).  Among her complaints: abortion, poor, AIDS, homosexuals, war (the
church has caused many in history she says), extravagence within the church,
etc.  The list goes on and on.

Another interesting point was made that she may have guessed incorrectly as
to how her American audience would take her performance.  I guess she is
more understood in Ireland.

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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Mon, 5 Oct 1992 09:19:39 EDT
From:         "Patrick S. Golden" <pgolden@NHGS.VAK12ED.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Women are unclean
              "CATHOLIC@auvm.american.edu" at Oct 3, 92 9:23 am

According to CATHOLIC@auvm.american.edu:
>
> >
> >     BALTIMORE BISHOP CALLS FOR WOMEN PRIESTS
> >
> >     The church should admit women to the priesthood because
>  Stuff removed ...
>
> >
>
> Come on here.  Isn't this view of the importance of our discussions just a
> little bit inflated?  I wouldn't exactly call this the "highest levels of
> the Church"
> More stuff deleted...

> The role of the laity in the Church is all too often undervalued in
> discussions like this.  It is high time we all took the Second Council of
> the Vatican seriously and live the life of the Church in the modern world.
>
> God Bless to all,
> Brendan
>
Brendan -

I think Jim McIntosh's original post was not indended to "puff
us up" to the level of the 'princes of the Church,' but to
demonstrate that the discussions that go on here are not unlike
those that concern the hierarchy of the Church.

I won't debate the relative merits of the arguments of an
"auxiliary bishop" (a position you feel isn't high enough in
the hierarchy).  But I think Jim demonstrated exactly what you
are advocating:  living the life of the Church in the modern
world.

We are a sacramental people and, as others have better noted,
unless we address the needs of the Church in the "modern world"
we may not be able to have access to these sacraments.

I view the prayerful discussion of these issues as an
acceptable part of living the life of the church in the modern
world.

--
|-------------------------------|
|++Patrick Golden++             |
|pgolden@nhgs.vak12ed.edu       |
|-------------------------------|
--
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X-Vmsmail-To: SMTP%"CATHOLIC@AMERICAN.EDU"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 09:48:21 -0400
From:         URSIC@BEAST.CS.HH.AB.COM
Subject:      RE: Authority on the Church...

So, Cardinal Mahoney may listen and respond to our questions on this
listserve, maybe my excommunication papers will arrive afterall:-)

Anybody know anything about his views, my assumption would be that if he
was appointed to Cardinal, he must have "played the game" rather well and
his views would be rather conservative to allign himself with Rome.
No offense:-) but I can look up Church Dogma in a library, I'd rather
hear what Kim Callis feels about Church.

Now, where did I put that picture of Cardinal Mahoney? Here it is.
(rip-rip, rip-rip, tear...)
Hey, I heard you can get people to pray for you this way:-) -J.J.
(Note: If you find this offensive, I apologize)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: pol30546@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Peder Larsen)
Subject: Re: Fatima: warning or prediction
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 03:35:58 GMT

topcat@hardy.u.washington.edu (Thanh - Vincent) writes:

>why do you worry?  is God not just?  will he not judge justly and
>accordingly?  you don't have to believe in God to be saved.  you don't
>have to be catholics either.  whatever you believe, as long as you live a
>clean life with a clean conscience, what else can God ask of you?
>He can't blame you for what you don't know.

	You don't need to believe in God to be saved?  Beg to differ!!!
	What else can God ask of you?   Much, much more.
	He can't blame you for what you don't know?  Why not?

>indeed.  if you put up a good example of what you believe, maybe they will
>be inspired and follow your religion without you lifting a finger.
>religion is much more than preaching, it's living it!

	Yes I agree with you here.  As Christians we should live the lives
that God intended, teaching by example (of our lives) and by our words
(preaching to the world).

	So far the responses to my post have been nothing like what I 
expected.  I would like to hear from the "group regulars" if you have the
time or any other Christians that are reading this group.  I wonder why
you haven't responded?
From: elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: RE: women priests
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 92 22:25:24 CDT
Organization: Minas Tirith BBS (Public Access Usenet for New Orleans)

scharle@lukasiewicz.cc.nd.edu (Scharle) writes:

>     Has there been a pronouncement _ex_ _cathedra_ or a statement by
> a Council that it is impossible for a woman to be a priest?  If so,
> then it seems quite difficult for there ever to be a woman priest.  If
> not, then it seems possible, however unlikely or inappropriate, for
> there to be women priests.

The only two ex cathedra pronouncements made in the last 150 years have dealt
with the Blessed Mother.

>
>     Is there any reason that there has never been a woman Cardinal?
> There certainly have been laymen who have been Cardinals, and as the
> only function of a Cardinal is to be a Papal elector, would it not seem
> appropriate for the Church to show that it is not merely being
> anti-woman (in regards the issue of women priests) by naming some women
> as Cardinals?
>

Interesting idea.  Doubtful that it will happen, given the attitude of the
current Pope.  In terms of the inertia of the Church, women haven't been full
citizens in most countries long enough to rate being papal electors.  Shoot, by
Church standards, they're just getting away from being chattel.



|Edward J. Branley         elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us|
|Seashell Software, Metairie, LA            +1-504-455-5087|
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: Sarek@world.std.com (Garrett Fitzgerald)
Subject: Re: Picking on altar servers and Jesuits now
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1992 17:21:47 GMT

In article <920925101644.202008f9@ALF.CS.HH.AB.COM> URSIC@ALF.CS.HH.AB.COM writes:
>Perhaps if any of the duties of a priest were performed in the nude or
>if any of the organs of the reproductive systems played a role in a
>priests duties, I may see a point to this otherwise blantant sexist
>'policy' of the Church. 1/2:-)

Actually, that's what the line in Leviticus about "You shall not lie
with a man as with a woman" refers to--there were cults in that time
that required the worshippers to have sex with the high priest. Anyone
with a better historical background is begged to clarify that....
--------------------
"Where there is hatred, let me sow love...."

Sarek of Vulcan
a.k.a. Garrett Fitzgerald `:-)
Official Diver of the RFA, 'Chelle's TwinSib, and Donna's OneTrueLove

Sarek@world.std.com

Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: edjans01@orion.spd.louisville.edu (David Jansing)
Subject: All about the Book of Revelation
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 17:35:30 GMT
Organization: University of Louisville


To follow up on a post I made about two weeks ago, here is some notes on the
Book of Revelation, from Fr. Don Springman, a Scripture teacher from Trinity
High School, here in Louisville, KY.

-----------------------------------Text Follows---------------------------------

THE BOOK OF REVELATION

This is the most dfficult book to understand in the entire New Testament,
and it is the book most misinterpreted and misused by Fundamentalists--for
they often use this writing as a means to predict the "end of the world".

_THE PROBLEM_ = the Book of Revelation is written in a Literary Form called
APOCALYPIC, a literary form very unfamiliar to us in the West.  And even in
the East (where this kind of literature was popular for only a few
centuries) it has largely died out.  So it is extremely important for you to
understand in the Book of Revelation.

"Apocalyptic" grew originally out of prophecy.  And there were three major
periods of Apocalyptic development:

1.  The Bablyonian Captivity of the Jews (5897 to 539 BC), and the primary
apocalyptic book that grew out of that event was the _Book of Ezekiel_.

2.  The Syrian persecution of the Jews in the 2nd century BC and its
apocalyptic book is the _Book of Daniel_.

3.  The Pagan Roman Empire's persecution of the early Christians in 90 AD
which resulted in the _Book of Revelation_.

The obvious common element in the three about events is the notion of
persecution -- so Apocalyptic is "Persecution Literature" aimed at keeping
alive the hopes of those being persecuted.

Author and date of composition:

Four times the author identifies himself as "John"; tradition has always
identified him with the apostle John, wirter of the Fourth Gospel.  However,
the Greek style in the Gospel of John and that in the Book of Revelation are
very different.  Yet the theology and terminology ("Living water", Shepherd
and Lamb for Christ, etc.) in the two books are similar.

Possible solution = John wrote Book of Revelation and John's
Disciple-Editors wrote the Gospel using John's theology.  The book
(Revelation) is dated about 95 AD.

-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dave Jansing                     | "What we call the beginning is often the end
Electrical Engineering Department|  And to make an end is to make a beginning.
University of Louisville         |  The end is where we start from . . ."
                                 |  -- T.S. Eliot, "Four Quartets"
              Internet:  edjans01@starbase.spd.louisville.edu
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DISCLAIMER:	The opinions expressed here are strictly my own and do not
		necessarily reflect those of the Department of Electrical
		Engineering or any other department within the University
		of Louisville.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: oneil@cwis.unomaha.edu (Sharon O'Neil)
Subject: Re: sinead o'connor
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 03:29:09 GMT

v201lrxa@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (BILL S. PRESTON, ESQ.) writes:

>last night i was watching 'saturday night live' on nbc. the musical
>guest, sinead o'connor, was performing what seemed to be a relatvely
>decent song about breaking down all the barriers that divide people
>today. at the end of the song, she held up a picture of the pope and
>said, "Let's fight the real enemy," and tore the picture to shreds.
>my friends and myself were outraged at this display of blasphemy,
>and i am wondering if anyone else was witness to this, and what 
>your reactions are. 

I'm not a practicing Catholic, but I was kind of confused at her action.
Even if we were to grant her that the Pope is racist -- and I really don't
believe that he is -- I don't understand how she can assign all blame to
him.  After all, she did say he was the "real enemy."  Racism does exist
in the world and I'd hardly say that Pope John Paul II is the source of 
it all.  One wonders why she didn't tear up a picture of Queen Elizabeth
II, Defender of the Anglican Church, since Britain has treated its black
minority and the Irish Northern Catholics abominably.  One wonders why 
shd didn't tear up a picture of the Serbian Orthodox patriarchs since 
the Bosnian Catholics and Muslims are being killed right and left.  One
wonders why she didn't tear up a picture of Shi'ite imams who advocate the
death of non-Muslims and of Sunni Moslems.  What about the Hindus and the
Sikhs?  Can we possibly blame John Paul II for this?

I was trying to think of something that I might compare this with and the
closest example I could think of was ACT-UPs protest of Cardinal O'Connor
at the New York cathedral.  Having seen the film, "Stop the Church," I 
feel that I can at least see the focus of their protest and I can at least
understand what they were protesting.  I couldn't even figure out what in
the world Sinead O'Connor was upset about.  (The ACT-UP protesters at least
said what they were mad about.  Even if you can't condone what they did
at least you could figure out what they were mad about and it at least made
some sort of sense.)

I feel like Sinead O'Connor was simply being inflammatory and I don't
think that's right.  At least if she could have said WHY he was the source
of evil, then it would have made some sense.  

I personally think she's trying to gain some notoreity so she can sell her
latest album.  And from what I understand it's not all that great either; 
she's taken Linda Ronstadt's cue and done a sort of big band cover type of
album.  If you've heard her screech, you can imagine the result.  I guess
with Madonna's release of her new video "Erotica," Sinead felt she really
had to do something offensive.

Sharon
oneil@cwis.unomaha.edu

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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Mon, 5 Oct 1992 08:41:19 CDT
From:         Elizabeth Stevens <CCCAMPER@MIZZOU1.BITNET>
Subject:      re:Famtima's message

I have some files from Vassula Ryden that relate also to Fatima.
One is even an address she gave to the World Council of Churches
meeting in Europe last January. (lest you wonder if she is a
fanatic with no reasonable audience)

If anyone would like to read these I'd be happy to mail them out.
I haven't gotten around to getting permission to publicly post
them so would prefer to send them privately.

Jesus has (allegedly) been giving messages to Vassula since 1986 and
her main role is to help unite His Church, *all* of it. In the
whole body of work there is much about Fatima, Garabandal, etc.

The wonderful thing about these messages is that in reading through
them you come to a better understanding of how much He loves us.
(altho not particularly the ones i have on file, they are more
of a prophetic nature)
In Christ,
Elizabeth
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Via: uk.ac.lancashire-poly.prime1; Tue, 6 Oct 1992 19:47:42 +0100
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 19:50:46 LCL
From:         Becka <SUTTON_R_1@PRIME1.LANCASHIRE-POLY.AC.UK>
Subject:      Feast of Our Lady of The Rosary

(From Becka Sutton   )

I knew that there was some reason tomorrow was special but I couldn't
remember what.  I am certain others had forgotten as well.  Thank you for
reminding us, Jane and yes we do know what to do.
God Bless,
Rebecca
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From: elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Deacons
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 92 20:07:05 CDT
Organization: Minas Tirith BBS (Public Access Usenet for New Orleans)

"(Len Howard)" <tas@PEGASUS.COM> writes:

> Ed, as I read your posting, I really have to ask you some
> questions.  You mention your son, and I get the idea that he is
> still young, as are you.  One of the topics really questioned in
> our meetings with the commission on ministry is the status of the
> family.  My children are all grown, married and on their own.  My
> wife is taking the courses concurrently.  We have no other
> obligations than our church and my job.  I find that the
> diaconate training is integrating well with the practice of
> medicine and is actually increasing my sensitivity to the needs
> of my patients.  I would worry that you might be decreasing the
> time spent with your family if you go into the diaconate training
> at this point in time.  It is a very demanding ministry, both of
> time and of emotional commitment.  You should really think about
> this and talk about it with your wife.  Ask yourself if you are
> spending as much time with your son and wife as is needed.  I
> wish now I had spent more time with my kids when they were
> growing up, but have a second chance with my grandson.  If there
> is any hesitancy in your mind, then you may need to wait a while,
> and then when there is a clear path, respond to the call.  It
> will still be there.
> Shalom,                          Len Howard
>                                  tas@pegasus.com

Len, thanks for your thoughts.  Yes, all of this is indeed a big step.  
One of the reasons I'm thinking about it in the first place is because 
I'm self-employed, so I have a very flexible daytime schedule.  While 
this will be a good thing once  I was ordained, it doesn't alter the fact 
that (I assume) most of the classes, meetings, etc., related to the 
diaconate program are at night.  Actually, the one I won't be seeing as 
much of will be my wife.  I bring my son to school every morning and pick 
him up most afternoons, so we spend a lot of time together.  He hits 
phase-out after dinner (he's 4.5 now), so it wouldn't be hard to get away 
for a class or meeting or whatever as far as he's concerned.  My wife is 
another story, however.  We're in the 'thinking about it' process, and 
since it looks like I have a year before I'm even eligible for the 
program.

It's one of those decisions that *feels* right inside, but is indeed a 
big step.  Well, I've certainly got lots of time...


|Edward J. Branley         elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us|
|Seashell Software, Metairie, LA            +1-504-455-5087|
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