From: hassan@cs.ubc.ca (Moustafa Hassan)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.islam
Subject: aqeedah
Keywords: banned?
Date: 25 Jul 92 11:44:59 GMT
Reply-To: hassan@cs.ubc.ca (Moustafa Hassan)
Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada


Assalamu alaikum:
		Why is it that the moderators of this news group are 
banning my rebutal on the basic points of aqeedah?  If any of you find
mistakes in my article, I would appreciate hearing about them.  Allowing
me a rebuttal is only fair:  Walid's article presented a single viewpoint
and made all other viewpoints seem heretical.  My perspective in the 
article is in complete agreement with salafi scholars, which Walid 
acknowledges as being valid.  As far as I can tell, my article is
completely supported.

	[Moderator's note: The moderators are conscientiously
	impartial, and will reject an article only if it does not
	conform to the specifications set forth by the newgroup.]

Finally, this article has an addendum attached concerning the 
attribute of the foot.  In his posting, Walid sounded so convincing
that I myself doubted this attribute.  However, after researching the
subject, I found that my initial statement was correct.  This article
is not a flame, and aqeedah is one of the most important topics in
Islam.  Please let me know why you are banning my articles.
Jazakum Allahu Khairun.  I look forward to hearing from you soon.

I bear witness that there is nothing worthy of worship other
than Allah, and that His messenger Muhammad is the seal
of all prophethood.  I am a believer in Allah and His messenger
Muhammad.  I am not a separatist or part of any faction.  I believe
in ijmaa' (consensus of Muslim scholars) and qiyas (analogy by
scholars).  I believe in strict adherence to the Qur'an and 
Sunnah, and its interpretation as it was interpreted by our
pious predecessors, the companions of the Prophet Muhammad (SAWS), 
may Allah be pleased with them all.

May Allah forgive us for our shortcomings and perfect our
Iman.


In article <711577512@lear.cs.duke.edu>, Walid.Dabbous@sophia.inria.fr writes:
|> -------------------------------

|> 
|> AsSalamu Alaykym wa rahmatu-llahi wa barakatuh.

Wa Alaykum as-Salam wa rahmatu-llahi wa barakatuh.

|> 
|> I)  First objection: about the use of the word spirit as an attribute of Allah

|> 
|> The word "roohina" here means the "ruh" which belongs to Us, that We
|> created and blessed (see the b) above). This word "roohina" does
|> not mean that Allah has a spirit (as an attribute).
|> 

This was a mistake on my part.  Jazak Allah for clarifying it.  It 
was due to my own extrapolation, and has nothing to do with the book
I cited in my original article.  As far as I can tell, the book I
cited (by Abdur-Rahman Abdul-Khaliq) is free from mistakes.  May
Allah forgive me.


|> 
|> 
|> II) Second objection about what he said concerning the speech of Allah
|> 
|> The author of the article then said:
|> 
|> >G Housieni writes: (His speech is without sounds, letters and
|> > languages).  Do you have any evidence for this?  What about
|> >the Qur-an?  What about when Allah spoke to Musa (check sura 20,
|> >ayah 11 and onward)?

How can this be an objection when I was asking a question?  It 
wasn't a rhetorical question in the least.  Thank you for clarifying
it though.


|> III) Third objection concerning what the author said
|>      concerning some ayat and ahadith mutashabihat.


Did you read the beginning of my article?  Allah has
attributes which befit His majesty.  These attributes do not
resemble the attributes of any creature real or imagined.  Suffice
it to say that Allah has attributes and we know of these attributes
only what He tells us or what His prophet Muhammad (SAWS) told us.
In many cases, all we know of the attributes of Allah are their names.
I completely agree with the scholars you cited;  why do you see a 
contradiction?  The ayah "laysa kamithlihee shay^" (there is nothing
like Him) cannot be used as a basis for denying the attributes of 
Allah.  This same ayah can be used to deny that Allah has an eye
or hands.  Let me clarify (once again):  Allah has attributes which
befit His majesty.  In some cases we know nothing about His attributes
other than the name.  As Muslims, we cannot say that these attributes
are similar to anything created or imagined, which would be kufr
(blasphemy).  At the same time, if one denies the attributes of Allah,
this is also kufr.  May Allah forgive us all for our shortcomings. 
Without the guidance of Allah, we would all be lost.

More specifically:

|> 
|> The third point I would like to refute in the article of M. Hassan
|> is the way the ahadith of the prophet were cited and interpreted,

In terms of the attributes (such as hands, ascension of the throne,etc):
As far as I know, what I said is exactly in accordance with the 'Salaf'
scholars.  Abdur-Rahman Abdul-Khaliq is salafi in his thinking.  Also,
he bases much of his work on Ibn-Teymiyyeh, Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Ibn 
Jawziyyah, Muhammad Abdul-Wahhab, and other scholars (all are 'salafi'
in their thinking).


|> 
|> 
|> The author also attributed motion to Allah:
|> this is also unfounded and contrary to Islamic beliefs.
|> Imam malik said about the hadith "yanzilou rabbuna
|> ila assama^i dunya": nuzul rahma la nuzul naqla.

Yes, that is Imam Malik's opinion.  Other great Islamic scholars
disagree with him on this point.  (See Ibn-Teymiyyeh,
or Ibn-Hajar).  Allah knows best.  According to the Arabic, we can
only extrapolate that Allah descends;  we do not know how He
descends or in which way.  If we interpret verbs (in *any* language)
in a way which implies the nature of a creation, then this verb
does not befit Allah.  Allah exists, but His existence does not 
resemble that of any creation real or imagined.  Thus, one could 
say that the verb 'to exist' does not befit Allah.  Clearly, this
is ridiculous.  The same applies for verbs like 'to descend' or
'to move towards' (cf. the Hadith Qudsee where Allah says: "Wa in
ataanee yamshee, ataytuhu harwala" meaning roughly "And if he (my
slave) moves to me walking, I move to him with speed").  These verbs
do not imply that Allah enacts the verb in a way similar to humans.

|> 
|> Concerning the attribute of "yad" we cannot translate it to hand
|> in English because the word yad in arabic has more than 14 meanings
|> (see fath al bari sharh sahih al bukhari, kitab altawhid). 

So does 'hand' in English.  I agree that a translation of the Qur'an
is not really possible.  Only tafseer should be translated.  Thus, in
a translation of tafseer, all the meanings of 'yad' should be given.
To deny, however, that Allah has a hand is to deny one of His attributes.
Again, this attribute does not resemble any human attribute.  

|> so we cannot choose the meaning hand in English which implies
|> resembling Allah to his creatures (tashbih). 

The word "yad" to the pagan Arabs also implied a human quality.
The point is to educate people that the attributes of Allah do
not resemble human attributes.  Allah used the word "yad" for a 
reason.  Allah knows best.


|> either adopt the salaf's way by saying it has a meaning which
|> corresponds the Allah's non resemblance to creatures

This is what I do.


May Allah forgive us all for any mistakes.  I ask Allah to guide 
Muslims and to help us perfect our Iman.  We Muslims are brethren;
we must learn to acknowledge our mistakes and learn from one another.
Walid: I love you as a Muslim brother, and I love you for correcting
a mistake in my last post.  Jazak Allah Khairun.



Addendum:  Concerning the Attribute of the foot.


The following is evidence supporting the statement that Allah
possesses the attribute of a foot.  Again, I must stress that 
the attributes of Allah do not resemble those of any creature
real or imagined.  I have listed the evidences in order of
increasing reliability:

To avoid problems in translation, I did not translate most of the 
statements which follow; sorry for any inconvenience.

1) In his tafseer of "yawma yukshafu 'an saaqin wa yud'awna ilas sujudi
   falaa yastatee'un" (surat al-qalam), al-Shawkani cites al-Bukhari's 
   hadeeth implying that Allah has the attribute of a foot.  I consider
   this evidence weaker than the next three points because I do not own
   al-Shawkani's tafseer and did not read it myself.  I asked a brother
   about the hadeeth and he told me this.  The next three points I've 
   verified for myself.

2) In his _The Translation of the Meanings of Sahih-Bukhari_ ,  
   Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan of the Islamic University of Medina
   translates hadeeth 481 (Vol IX, Kitab al-Tawheed, Article 7,
   p. 357).  The translation includes "till the Lord of the worlds
   puts His Foot over it [Hell Fire]".  Obviously, the Arabic 
   preposition 'fee' is not necessarily translated as 'in'.  
   Furthermore, the translation must have been approved by various
   scholars before publication.

3) In his tafseer of "yawma naqoolu lijahannam hal imtala^ti wa 
   taqoolu hal min mazeed" (surat qaf), Ibn Katheer (abridged)
   does not mention the interpretation of "yada' qadamahu fin naar"
   as meaning "putting the last of them in the Fire".  Throughout
   his discussion of the hadeeth in question, Ibn Katheer implies
   that "qadam" means "foot".  More explicitly, he says "fa 'ind
   haa^ulaa^ anna qawluhu ta'aala "hal imtala^t" innama huwa ba'd
   ma yada' 'alayha qadamahu"
             ^^^^^^
   Thus, this time the preposition "'ala" is used, so the statement
   unequivocally refers to a foot, and not to the end of the people 
   of the Fire.

4) In Fath al-Baari (Vol. XIII, Kitab al-Tawheed, Article 7, p.370-371),
   Ibn Hajar does not mention the "end of the people" interpretation 
   for "qadam".  He does, however, say:  
       wa taqaddam fee tafseer surat qaf min hadeeth Abee Huraira:
       "fayada' ar-rab qadamahu 'alayhaa".
                                 ^^^^^^^

   Thus, in another riwayah (citation) of al-Bukhari's hadeeth, the Prophet
   himself (SAWS) used the preposition 'ala, thus unequivocally implying
   that Allah has a foot.


And Allah knows best.


-- 
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* Moustafa Hassan          |                                       *
* hassan@cs.ubc.ca         |  Political correctness is a euphemism *  
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