From: hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu (Charles Hedrick)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: Did the world end already?
Date: 29 Aug 92 21:11:25 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

atdhb@acad2.alaska.edu writes:

>In article <Aug.29.01.19.30.1992.1270@athos.rutgers.edu>, hedrick@athos.rutgers.edu (Charles Hedrick) writes:

>Okay, but it's harder to tapdance around the other three times
>the disciples ask when the End is coming, the most damning of
>which is Luke 21:32: "...this generation will not pass away till
>all things have been accomplished."  The other two guys (Mathew
>and Mark) say "all these things," which could lead to double
>interpretations.  But *all things* could refer only to the end of
>the world, and that is supported by the fact that the disciples
>asked  him point-blank "When are these things to happen?" (Luke
>21:7) after Jesus told them about how Jerusalem would be
>destroyed. 

First, I recommend that you look at Mark 13.  That seems likely to be
nearer to what Jesus actually said, though the overall meaning is
similar.  I guess I think you're taking a few words too literally.
Jesus is clearly talking about two things, the destruction of
Jerusalem, and The End.  He warns people against confusing the two:
"Take heed that you are not led astray .. saying .. the time is at
hand! ... but the end will not be at once".  (Lk 21:8-9) He talks
about both because in typical apocalyptic fashion the current events
are seen as a type of what is coming.  I do agree that his
descriptions are combined in a way that makes it easy to confuse them.
Whether this reflects the original, or whether his distinctions got
blurred as it was passed on is hard to know.  The verse that
particularly bothers you is "Truly, I say to you, this generation will
not pass away before all these things take place" (Mk 13:30), or "all
has taken place" in Luke 21:32.

  Mark 13:29   So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that 
  he is near, at the very gates. 
 
  Mark 13:30   Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away before 
  all these things take place. 

  Mark 13:31   Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass 
  away. 

  Mark 13:32    "But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the 
  angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 

If you're interested in knowing what Jesus said (rather than simply
tweaking the noses of fundamentalists), it makes sense to use what
most critics think is the version that's closest to what Jesus said.
In this form, it seems likely that "all these things" refers to the
signs, not the final end, since Jesus explicitly disavows knowing when
that will occur.  Luke's version could be taken differently.  But in a
passage that is talking about both historical signs and the final end
of history, I think it's plausible that Luke's "all" is also referring
to the signs.  Consider his situation: He's almost certainly writing
after 70 AD, when the signs have happened.  He's more than a
generation after Jesus.  History is still going.  Thus it's hard to
believe that he meant "all" to include the second coming.  It does
make sense to ask what Luke would have meant, since that exact
phraseology is his.
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