From: emery@tc.fluke.COM (John Emery)
Subject: Re: Jesus denied he was God
Organization: John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc., Everett, WA
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 20:40:26 GMT

In article <92227.140707RBNXHS@rohvm1.rohmhaas.com> RBNXHS@rohvm1.rohmhaas.com writes:

>John Emery suggests that:
>                         God=good   (1)
>                         Jesus=good (2)
>Therefore, Jesus=God.            ...(3)
>A good mathematical(?) logic. Bravo, John. Now, if we are to agree
>with this logic, then explain to me, how the Triune gods in Trinity
>still mean  monotheism? As per Athanasian creed of co-equality -
>                     Father (in heaven) = 1 God
>                     Son of God (Jesus) = 1 god
>                     Holy Ghost         = 1 god
>                    ----------------------------
>                    1 God in monotheism = 3 gods (Trinity)   .... (4)
>
>Mathematically, this equation, is absurd. If we were to agree with your
>previous logic as in (3), shouldn't we also agree with the outcome of
>equation (4), which suggests that Trinity means polytheism and not
>monotheism?

The problem is that you're talking numerically.  God is a relationship 
(Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).  For just as a man and a woman, though 
they are two, become one in marriage, so God is one.  One, not referring 
to numerically, but unified!  God is love.  Love is a relationship
description.  Our existance is centered around relationships: family,
parents, spouse, friends, children.  And we are created in the image of God,
for God is a relationship.

The gospel reveals that perfect relationship of God (Father, Son, and
Holy Spirit).  Jesus has always perfectly submitted to His Father.
Obedience is a godly character because God is obedient.  Obedience is
a relationship quality and would be impossible to be a description of
God without more than one personality in the Godhead.

The beauty and perfectness of this relationship is brought out in Scripture.
Read the gospel of John.  The awesome love, respect, and honoring of
the Father, Son, and Spirit toward each other is quite lovely.  I hope this
helps.

>Let's get serious. John mentions that Jesus was continually doing good.
>Let me cite from John's gospel (which John Emery likes to use more often
>than other gospels to defend Trinity), 2nd chapter:
>"And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him (Jesus),
>they have no wine."
>"Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee?"
>
>Is that a way to address one's mother? How could Jesus have forgotten
>that this "Woman" had carried him for more than 9 months and perhaps
>suckled him for two years, and had borne endless insults and injuries
>on account of his 'miraculous' birth?

I'm sorry it has appeared this way to you, especially in 17th century
english.  Let's look at it in more understandable english:

John 2:4 "Dear woman, why do you involve me?"  Jesus replied, "My time has 
not yet come." (NIV)

Jesus was not acting in a disrespectful way.  And think about the gospel
writer.  I would not expect him to put something implying Jesus sinned
and then turn around and say He never sinned. 


>He even insults the elders of his race by uttering -
>"Ye hypocrites"
>"Ye wicked and adulterous generation"
>"Ye whited sepulchres"
>"Ye generations of vipers".

It is written:

Proverbs 25:12 Like an earring of gold or an ornament of fine gold
is a wise man's rebuke to a listening ear.

Proverbs 27:5 Better is an open rebuke than hidden love.

It was necessary for Jesus to rebuke the religious leaders who had
become very proud and self-righteous and badly distorted the will of
God.  Not only was it necessary but very Scriptural.  Jesus was good
in doing this.  We all need to be corrected by the Lord.  The more
proud and hard-hearted, the more strong the rebuke may need to be.

Scripture challenges to respond to and receive a rebuke:

Proverbs 1:22-23 How long will you simple ones love your simple ways?
How long will mockers and fools hate knowledge?  If you had responded
to my rebuke, I would have poured out my heart to you and made my
thoughts known to you.

Proverbs 13:1 A wise son heeds his father's instruction, but a mocker
does not listen to rebuke.

>Now, if Jesus was not perfect (as I have shown above, borrowing verses
>from the Gospel writers' accounts), how could the sacrifice (?) of this
>'incarnation' of God on the cross, redeem all the sinners (?), since
>we are continuously reminded by gospel-thumping Christians that God
>needed a perfect (100%) man = son of God, to atone our supposed sin
>that we inherited (?) through Adam? If Jesus did not die on the cross
>as a 100% perfect God-man, then surely our supposed sins are also not
>paid for by this sacrificial *lamb of God*.

Thank you for you input.  But you see in light of Scripture that Jesus
did not do what was wrong, but was right, even if the love had to be 
expressed in correction.  You are right, I believe, that Jesus would
have to be the without sin in order to be the perfect sacrifice.
And scripture says throughout the NT, that Jesus was without sin:

John 8:46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth,
why don't you believe me? (NIV)

1 Peter 2:22-23 22 "He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his
mouth." 23 When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate;
when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him
who judges justly. (NIV)

Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize
with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way,
just as we are-- yet was without sin. (NIV)

2 Corinthians 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in
him we might become the righteousness of God. (NIV)

1 John 3:5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our
sins. And in him is no sin. (NIV)

Hebrews 7:26 Such a high priest meets our need-- one who is holy,
blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. (NIV)

And this same Jesus died for your sins as well as mine!


May God bless richly and fill you with the knowledge of His will,

-- 
John Emery		"You say we've risen to a new age of light.
emery@tc.fluke.COM       You're telling me what used to be wrong
			 is now right."