HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bjgaed@bb1t.monsanto.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Characters I Hate to Love
Date: 5 Oct 92 07:32:37 CST
Organization: Monsanto Company, St. Louis, MO

In article <1992Oct3.070330.10823@ee.eng.ohio-state.edu>, 
rob@hoster.eng.ohio-s*
> In article <1992Oct2.162307.4520@bb1t.monsanto.com> 
bjgaed@bb1t.monsanto.com
> writes:
>>In article <1992Oct2.060548.8454@ee.eng.ohio-state.edu>,
> rob@hoster.eng.ohio-state.edu (Rob Carriere) writes:
>>>>Remember, evil is *supposed* to be more tempting than good [...]
>>>
>>> Indeed?
>>
>>Indeed!
>>
>>If good were more tempting than evil, then humans would choose good
>>over evil most of the time, a situation which does not pertain.
>>
>>q.e.d.
>
> You presuppose that the notions of good and evil as well as the 
degree of
> temptation felt for any given act, are constants accross the 
species.  I don't
> believe your presupposition is universaly true.
>
> SR
I don't believe that such a presupposition is universally true,
either, and I never made such.  I base my statement solely on
empirical observation.

Are you arguing that when I observe another member (or members)
of the species making a choice which I perceive to be the choice of
evil over good, that that (those) member(s) do *not* perceive that
choice as evil, and thus in their mind(s) they are really choosing
good?

I can't get into someone else's mind, and on issues of morality (i.e.,
questions of good and evil) people are notoriously dishonest in
describing their own motivations.  But I do know my own mind, and I do
know that I sometimes do choose evil over good when I am aware of what
I am doing.  I don't always understand my motivation, but I am aware
of my actions, and I am certainly aware of the results after the fact.
It is in speaking to this dilemma that I find morally imperfect
characters to be most interesting, whether in sf or mainstream fiction.

Are you arguing that those members perceive good as more tempting than
evil but choose evil anyway?  That simply doesn't makke sense to me.


--Electric Monk            (Bruce Gaede);
                            e-mail: bjgaed@ccmail.monsanto.com

"...and then time started seriously to pass."
--Douglas Adams, _Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency_
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
Date: Monday, 28 Sep 1992 08:37:37 PST
From: Thomas Hyer <IOR@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: A microshort story

In article <51512@licra.dn.mu.oz.au>, DAVIS@licra.dn.mu.oz.au says:
>
>
>THE MOON AND THE STARS by Laura Davis, age 2.  (Copyright (c) 1992)  8^}
>
>Going to the moon and the stars tomorrow.
>Going up very high on a birdie to the moon and the stars.
>Might be dark.
 Might need heavy boots...

Thomas Hyer             _____________________   Sometimes you're the
                       / Half the time, even \         windshield;
-S--L----A------C-----<  _I_ don't share my / \   sometimes
                       \    opinions.      /     you're the
                        -------------------     bug.
From: swf@teradata.com (Stanley Friesen)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: CJ Cherryh
Date: 5 Oct 92 22:11:11 GMT
Reply-To: swf@tdat.teradata.com (Stanley Friesen)
Organization: NCR Teradata Database Business Unit

In article <CMM.0.90.2.717896857.billw@regal.cisco.com> billw@REGAL.CISCO.COM (William "Chops" Westfield) writes:
|
|    Oh, I agree, she is definitely a solid, even realistic character.  The
|    problem is, I *don't* *like* *her*.  I think she is a scuzbucket, so I find
|    it difficult to *care* what happens to her.
|
|A capsule analysis of CJC characters - They are deep.  Well defined.  You
|get to know all their faults as well as their good points.  They are
|frequently not "likeable".  It is frequently difficult to tell whether
|they are good guys or bad guys.  They are frequently pushed into situations
|that stress them to the very edge of sanity, or slightly beyond.

I agree.  I do not even terribly mind 'unlikable' characters, up to a point.

|(Consider, if you read Downbelow Station first, there is very heavy
Which I did.
|insinuation that "union" are the "bad guys", except for maybe miltary rogues
|who are worse.  Yet in Cyteen, we cheer on the very creators of this corrupt
|society.)

True, it is all very excellently done.  But part of this change of view is
accomplished by making the worst extremes of what Cyteen did in the war be
considered excessive by most of the citizens of Cyteen.  That is the least
acceptible activities, far from being the norm of the culture, are desperation
moves brought on by the war situation.

|I think that one of CJC's strongest advantages is her ability to paint the
|stage in many shades of gray, instead of the black and white so common in
|(inferior) SF works...  But if you are looking for heros, you should
|probably find another author.

It is all rather complex.  I didn't really mind Capt. Mallory, at least
she had *some* redeaming qualities.   And in "Downbelow Station" there
was at least an *issue* to *care* about - the effect of the war on those
Downbelow, especially the innocent (of this, at least) natives.


In "Rimrunner" we have a main character who goes *far* beyond what I consider
reasonable behavior, even in the extreme position she was in, and there
seems to be nothing at stake except the survival of a few murderous outlaws.
[As far as I'm concerned she had several opportunities to take a less violent
path, and thus her behavior is *not* justified by the extreme situation].
-- 
sarima@teradata.com			(formerly tdatirv!sarima)
  or
Stanley.Friesen@ElSegundoCA.ncr.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: msmith@beta.tricity.wsu.edu (Dragon Lord)
Subject: Re: Simak (Was Re: author'n'title...)
Organization: Washington State University Tri-Cities, Richland
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 92 03:24:29 GMT

In article <gs-p+zg@lynx.unm.edu> xoanon@carina.unm.edu (timothy k istian soholt) writes:
>msmith@beta.tricity.wsu.edu (Dragon Lord) writes:
>
>>BINGO!!  Clifford D. Simak!!!  Excellent author!!  By the way, is Simak
>>still around!?!
>
>Unfortunately, no. Simak died in '89, I believe. Within a few months
>of Heinlein.
>
Thanx and AWW DAMN!!!  I guess I'll just have to go back and try to
collect everything that I can get my hands on.  

Bill the Cat for President!
From: jdng90@ecs.soton.ac.uk (Gorsuch JDN)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Interzone
Date: 6 Oct 92 09:24:20 GMT


  Hi, 
  
    In several of my paperbacks I can see a reference to a magazine
called 'Interzone', which I believe is published in Brighton(UK).
Does anyone out there subscribe to this magazine, and, if so, could 
you send me current details, as mine are several years old. 
    Plus send details of the magazine, if you can reccomend it. 

                jon 
        jdng90@uk.ac.soton.ecs 


Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: phatch@coyote.slc.mentorg.com (Phill Hatch (CONTRACTOR Documentation))
Subject: Re: Coming of Age novels (was Re: Count Geiger's Blues and Jumper)
Organization: Mentor Graphics Corp.,  Murray, Utah
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 15:38:22 GMT

In article <STEINARB.92Sep30102749@vier.idt.unit.no>, steinarb@idt.unit.no (Steinar Bang) writes:
> >>>>> jdnicoll@watyew.uwaterloo.ca (James Davis Nicoll) writes:
> 
> > 	I happened to recently read 'Orbital Resonance' and 'Rite of
> > Passage' back to back. What are the great SF 'coming of age' novels?
> > I'd put 'The Wild Shore' on the list (and, I suppose the other two
> > books in that series), but what else should go on the cannonical
> > list of CoA books?
> 
_Set of Wheels_ by Robert Thurston (I think). 

Anyway, has _anyone_ else read this?  I am the only person I know of with
a copy.  Everyone I have lent this book has enjoyed it.  It is kind of a 
punky-semi-apocolyptic (I don't think I spelled that right) setting.

Phil
From: mab@buphy.bu.edu (Michael Burstein)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Utopia/Dystopia stories -- searching for
Date: 4 Oct 92 20:59:38 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Boston University Physics Department

A friend of mine is teaching an sf class to high school students and
needs short stories (or novelettes and novellas) about so-called perfect
societies or societies of this sort in which things go wrong. Any
suggestions? (Think 1984, Brave New World, Farenheit 451, etc)


-- 
Michael A. Burstein
Physics Department, Boston University         mab@buphy.bu.edu
590 Commonwealth Ave.                         (617) 353-9437 (o)
Boston, MA 02215                              (617) 735-9433 (h)
From: ciar04@vaxa.strath.ac.uk
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Diane Duane, _Door Into Fire_
Date: 6 Oct 92 11:42:16 GMT
Organization: Strathclyde University VAX Cluster

In article <1992Oct5.172400.26437@netcom.com>, dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig) writes:
> ciar04@vaxa.strath.ac.uk:
>>Regarding the idea of members of the same sex being lovers, Mercedes
>>Lackey's The Last Herald Mage series contains the same idea (called
>>shay a'chern).  Wonder who got the inspiration from whom.
> 
> Gee, maybe they both came up with this science-fictional notion 
> independently...

Well, perhaps you are right.  But both books came out at about the
same time (at least here in the UK).  When I bought both the Last Herald
Mage and Door series, some of my friends began to wonder about my own
sexual preferences (chuckle).

#----------------------------------#-------------------------------------------#
|  W.H.Watt                        #  JANET:                                   |
|  Dept. of Accounting & Finance   #           w.h.watt@uk.ac.strath.vaxa      |
|  University of Strathclyde       #  Rest of the World:                       |
|  Glasgow                         #           w.h.watt@vaxa.strath.ac.uk      |
|  United Kingdom                  #                                           |
#----------------------------------#-------------------------------------------#
From: ptrei@bistromath.mitre.org (Peter Trei)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Weirdstone location? (Was Re:Alan Garner)
Date: 6 Oct 92 20:15:18 GMT
Organization: The MITRE Corporation

In article <1992Oct2.234533.9188@vax.oxford.ac.uk>, warda@vax.oxford.ac.uk writes:
>>      I used to spend hours with Weirdstone, Gomrath, and the
>> appropriate Ordnance Survey map, tracing out the travels of the
>> characters (Red Shift is also set in the same general area).
>> 
> Where was Weirdstone set?  Is "Alderley" a real place I can look up in the 
> OS atlas?

    Yes, it is. Going on 15+ year old memories, you should try
Macclesfield, near Poole. Can't recall what's really real, and what's
made up - but most of the non-fantastic geography is correct.

							Peter Trei
							ptrei@Mitre.org
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: YANJUNA@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu
Subject: Re: Books I Hate to Love
Organization: Yale University
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 92 22:33:11 EDT

In article <1992Oct1.165906.11497@genie.slhs.udel.edu>
nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Nancy Lebovitz) writes:
 
>
>I have a notion that the bad characters are generally more interesting
>than the good ones because there's a belief that wanting something an
>acting to get it isn't a part of goodness. (Certainly, behaving like
>that is inconvenient for people who are trying to control you.)
>
>As a result, the villains are active, and all that the good guys get
>to do is stop the bad guys.
>
>                                Nancy Lebovitz
>                                calligraphic button catalogue
>                                   available by email  (170K)
>                                nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu
>
>Maybe I'll become an evil genius and blow up the world, and _then_ I'll
>feel better.
>
>
 
    My own pet "theory" is that the Western (Judeo-Christian) culture
admires active protagonists, rather than passive victims.  A lot of
"heroes" react to a situation rather than act.  To me, at least,
this explains why outlaws are admired; why "victim's rights" seems
to be less important in a trial situation than the "rights" of even
convicted criminals (e.g. scores of lawbreakers writing books on
their crimes.  The last I heard, the victims had a right to receive
part or all of profits from such books and movies, and the authors
(the criminals) were suing the law as interfering with their freedom
of speech) and the insistence that all criminals be forgiven.
   (Yes, I am vindictive.)
   This idea came to me a few years ago while writing a paper on the
Book of Job_ (The Bible, not the Heinlein story.)  where I thought
of the black sheep story:  Where Jesus told a parable of a good
son and the bad son.  The bad son got half of his father's money.
split, partied hardy, and came back broke.  The father, seeing his
son again, forgave him, and set the bad son up with money again.
Naturally, the good son, who had stayed with his father, got pissed off,
and complained.  The father explained that you are happier when
a strayed black sheep comes back to the flock, than when the good
sheeps stay in the flock.
    Nice story; Lousy incentive scheme.
 
                               Junsok Yang (YANJUNA @Yale)
From: billw@REGAL.CISCO.COM (William "Chops" Westfield)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: CJ Cherryh
Date: 30 Sep 92 23:47:37 GMT


    >I beg to differ.  Bet Yeager is probably my all-time favorite character in
    >Cherryh's writing.  The exposition that went into developing her character
    >is superbly done.  This is a very complex person.  ...

    Oh, I agree, she is definitely a solid, even realistic character.  The
    problem is, I *don't* *like* *her*.  I think she is a scuzbucket, so I find
    it difficult to *care* what happens to her.

A capsule analysis of CJC characters - They are deep.  Well defined.  You
get to know all their faults as well as their good points.  They are
frequently not "likeable".  It is frequently difficult to tell whether
they are good guys or bad guys.  They are frequently pushed into situations
that stress them to the very edge of sanity, or slightly beyond.

CJC's characters are not supposed to be likeable.  They are supposed to be
"ordinary people" thrown into the middle of extraordinary events.

(Consider, if you read Downbelow Station first, there is very heavy
insinuation that "union" are the "bad guys", except for maybe miltary rogues
who are worse.  Yet in Cyteen, we cheer on the very creators of this corrupt
society.)

I think that one of CJC's strongest advantages is her ability to paint the
stage in many shades of gray, instead of the black and white so common in
(inferior) SF works...  But if you are looking for heros, you should
probably find another author.

BillW
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: duzan@polaris.cis.udel.edu (Gary D. Duzan)
Subject: Re: Robert Jordan's "Shadow Rising"
Organization: Your Organization Could Be Here!
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 19:58:41 GMT

In article <7oa3RB1w165w@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca> mforget@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca (Michel Forget) writes:
=>
=>I know that feeling.  Knowing that it is out all over the United States, and
=>still has not arrived here, is driving me crazy.  Have you noticed that the
=>bookstores are spectacularly uninformed when it comes to availability?  :-(
=>
=>I have heard that the book is over seven hundred pages long, and I am anxious
=>to get started.  At least the third book (or the others) was a story in itself,
=>rather than a cliff-hanger.
=>
   701, including (as they did) the title pages, table of contents, maps,
glossary, and "About the Author". The story starts on page 13 and ends on
page 681. I'm only on page 75, myself. Since I only ran across the series
a couple months ago, I haven't had a chance to complain too much about
waiting for the next one. I even ordered the hardcover TDR just before
the paperback came out, and I found TSR on the shelf at Waldenbooks. :-)
The Wheel turns as the Wheel wills.

                                        Gary Duzan
                                        Time  Lord
                                    Third Regeneration
                                         Aielman



-- 
                             duzan@cis.udel.edu
   _o_                       ------------------                         _o_
 [|o o|]       Virtual Reality? No thanks, I've already got one.      [|o o|]
  |_O_|       Disclaimer: I have no idea what I am talking about.      |_O_|
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: sej5g@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Susan Elizabeth Juroff)
Subject: Re: Recommendations??
Organization: University of Virginia
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 01:22:18 GMT

I would second the recommendation of THE RIDDLE OF THE WREN
and/or any other book by Charles deLint. MOONHEART, MULENGRO,
JACK THE GIANT KILLER, GREENMANTLE, lots of short stories, some
of the most notable can be found in the Ellen Datlow/Terri
Windling Fantasy/Horror best of each year. Or in Mothering
magazine.
--
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: parmentier@iowasp.physics.uiowa.edu
Subject: left handed wrenches (was Re: help with a sf story ...)
Organization: Department of Physics and Astronomy, University of Iowa
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 23:27:33 GMT

In article <cass8806.298@elan.glassboro.edu>, cass8806@elan.glassboro.edu (KYLE CASSIDY) writes:
> long ago, i recall reading a sf story (in an anthology? or was it a 
> magazine) -- it was about a kid, goes to college and he's very young. he's 
> in college for engineering or physics and the older grad students play a 
> joke on him and send him out for a "left handed monkey wrench" and he 
> actually returns with one, saying that since he couldn't find one, he had to 
> make it. the grad students are blown away. then they find out that he's 
> created an entire nother universe in his dorm room....

	Left-handed monkey wrenches are one of my favorites...  Most people
don't realize they actually exist.  Has to do with the direction of the
threads on the adjusting screw.

-- 
"I'm not a programmer, but I play one at work." _/_
 _, .__  _  _,  _,     _   _, .__  ____  _  __  / o _ .__
(_)_/ (_(/_(_)_(_)_   |_)_(_|_/ (_/ / /_(/_/ /_/_/_(/_/ (__
 /|         /|  /|   /|      ___ Gregg  Parmentier ___
|/         |/  |/    |/ parmentier@iowasp.physics.uiowa.edu
From: spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu (Stefano Pagiola)
Subject: Re: Next Rama Book
Reply-To: spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu
Organization: DSO, Stanford University
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 92 17:14:41 GMT

Douglas Brod writes
> Does anyone know when Arthur C. Clarke's next Rama book will
> be out?
> 

Well, if the Ramans do everything in threes, there shouldn't be  
another.

--
-
Stefano Pagiola
Food Research Institute, Stanford University
spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu (NeXTMail encouraged)
From: jbeason@s.psych.uiuc.edu (Joseph E. Beason)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Looking for a title or author
Date: 30 Sep 92 15:44:50 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.BvEEEs.Hyo
Organization: UIUC Department of Psychology

Long, long, LONG ago, when I was a wee lad, I read a couple of short stories
in a collection that I became wuite enamored with; the book subsequently
disappeared.  For sentimental reasons, I'd like to find these stories again.
I believe they were by the same author.

Plot the First: rebel or friend-of-rebel, i think he was an artist, gets
turned into walking/talking bug by government, who implants a network of
slightly visible sensors under his skin.

Plot the Second: parapsychological researcher finds a teen-age girl with
TK/telepathy, I think she's "white trash".  he helps her strengthen her
abilities, which really take off.  She falls for him, and by dint of her
power, basically controls him at the end.  He thinks of himself as the
"sacrificial lamb" at the end.

Any suggestions as to authorship?  It was the mid-70s when I read them.

Joe
From: sdh5@po.CWRU.Edu (Scott D. Hurley)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Looking for Magical Books
Date: 4 Oct 1992 22:38:25 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc12.ins.cwru.edu


Try the works of Lyndon Hardy.  His world is based upon the
Seven Laws of Magic, which are wonderfully developed as the
trilogy moves on.

They are, in order: Master of the Five Magics; Secret of the
		    Sixth Magic; and Riddle of the Seven Realms.

Truly excellent reading.
-- 
He who fights with monsters might take care,
Lest he thereby become the monster.
And if you gaze for long into an abyss,
The Abyss gazes also into you. - - Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzche
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
Date: Wednesday, 30 Sep 1992 09:39:49 PST
From: Thomas Hyer <IOR@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Author Polls -- Greg Bear (REPOST)

Welcome to the author polls.  This week's author is hard-SF
luminary Greg Bear.

INTRO to AUTHOR POLLS  (skip if you've participated before):

   Since no two readers can generally be expected to agree
   about the quality of a given author, an overall poll
   like that used in rec.arts.movies would be useless
   except as an incendiary.  However, there is often good
   agreement about which books by a given author are most
   worthy: thus this poll.

IF YOU MISSED AN EARLIER POLL and want to contribute, please
   feel free to DO SO.

BALLOT FORMAT  (read this once):

   You have four votes, one each at +3, +2, +1, and -1. You
   may vote for a work of any length, though you may wish
   to restrict yourself to the form in which the author was
   most prolific.

SAMPLE BALLOT (just a reminder):

   + 3 <vote for at most one work>
   + 2 <vote for at most one work>
   + 1 <vote for at most one work>
   - 1 <vote for at most one work>

SEND BALLOTS TO THIS ADDRESS.  If you prefer multiple choice,
you can obtain fairly complete bibliographies by anonymous ftp
from gandalf.rutgers.edu, in /pub/sfl/authorlists.

LAST WEEK'S RESULTS (abridged):

Walter Jon Williams
-------------------
 HardWired                         +  24
 Voice of the Whirlwind            +  18
 Crown Jewels                      +  13
 Angel Station                     +   9
 House of Shards                   +   7
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

PREVIOUS AUTHORS (for listings, EMail to this address):
  Orson Scott Card
  Roger Zelazny
  Larry Niven
  Ursula K. Le Guin
  Robert A. Heinlein
  C.J. Cherryh
  David Brin
  Arthur C. Clarke
  John Brunner
  Isaac Asimov
  Jack Vance
  Philip K. Dick
  Samuel R. Delany
  Robert Silverberg
  Philip Jose Farmer
  Poul Anderson
  Frederick Pohl
  Stanislaw Lem
  Gordon R. Dickson
  Cordwainer Smith
  Walter Jon Williams
  Fritz Leiber
  Clifford D. Simak
  Harlan Ellison
  Theodore Sturgeon
From: aldis@kralizec.zeta.org.au (Aldis Ozols)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Musical SF and F
Date: 30 Sep 92 16:17:30 GMT
Organization: Kralizec Dialup Unix Sydney: +61-2-837-1183 V.32

"The Memory of Whiteness" by Kim Stanley Robinson is a novel
which is based entirely on music, and is well worth the effort
of searching it out.  I found it a very satisfying read, but 
I haven't seen many copies around the bookshops.

Aldis Ozols
From: lnh@soliton.physics.arizona.edu (sometimes a Wombat)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Gene Wolfe's New Sun stuff
Date: 3 Oct 92 06:12:51 GMT
Organization: Society for the Appreciation of Janni Lee Simner

Jonathan A. Kung writes:

Those questions I CAN answer have been.  Except this one.

>19.  Was the jungle area in the Garden with the three people, one woman,
>     a man, and a naked man, in the hut an instance of time-travel?  I
>     remember reading that Severian noticed that those people seemed to
>     be ignoring or at least trying not to notice himself and Agia.

Yes, it was, time travel back to roughly our day Brazil.  Or probably
Brazil.  Iffy, just where in South America the City is.

	Larry "Helpful" Hammer
--

LNH@physics.arizona.edu          \  "One like a wombat prowled obtuse
The insane don't need disclaimers \  and furry"  --Christina Rossetti