HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: AS.MSW@forsythe.stanford.edu (Marc Whitney)
Subject: Re: Cows at 12,000 Feet.
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 16:58:37 GMT

In article <1992Sep8.201047.24419@tera.com>,
richk@tera.com (Richard Korry) writes:
>I just spent the weekend in the Pasayten Wilderness area in eastern Washington.
>At the trailhead was a nice poster with a cow and sheep sitting by a campfire
>with a few paragraphs. The first said that the 1964 Wilderness Act specifically
>states that grazing of stock could continue in a Wilderness Area. I do not
>know if this means only at those levels (same number of head, etc.) or if
>rights can be bought or sold. The second paragraph stated that the grazing
>maintained plant vigor and helped keep wildflowers and meadows healthy.
>I would like to see some research showing this to be true since all of my

I suspect that what is being refered to is that some plant species
intereact with herbivories in a variety of ways.  Some seed need to
pass through an animal gut in order to germinate.  Some seedlings
need surrounding older vegatation to be grazed in order to get
enough light.  Etc., etc.   Stock animals can fill this role.

One might now ask, how the plant species managed before the
introduction of European stock.  Most likely, native herbivories
formerly filled this role but are now absent or much reduced in
population.  They reduced population may well be due to competition
from domestic stock.

Next, if the preceding paragraph hasn't infuriated you, assume youy
agree with using stock for the purpose described.  It doesn't take a
rocket scientist to realize that there is an optimal domestic stock
population that will work.  A population density greater than
optimal will damage the plant community.  Do you think the area you
visited had the "optimal" stock population?  Less than optimall?
More than optimal?

My personal conclusion:  the notice on the sign you read amound to a
large chuck of BS covered with a thin coating of truth.

In any event, the NFS doesn't have any choice but to act in
accordance with the enabling legislation.  So if you don't like the
the situation, direct your opinions your Congressman or Senator is
more direct than just complaining to the NFS.
From: MARGARET@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu (Margaret Krebs)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Hiking in Yosemite in early October
Date: 7 Sep 92 17:21:01 GMT
Organization: Yale University

My husband and I are planning a week-long trip in Yosemite.  We'd like to do a
45-50 mile loop or two shorter loops.  We are assuming there won't be crowds
this time of year.  Normally we seek out places where we won't have many
neighbors, if any.  We've had a little cross-country experience but don't
bring along ice axes and are definitely not climbers.
 
I'm concerned about how cold is it likely to be.  It appears as if most of the
trails are in the 8,000 range.  Are we likely to get snow? or will the nights
be cold and the days warm?
 
Since we are from the east and have done most of our hiking in the Northwest,
we've never been above 8,000 feet.  Are we likely to get altitude sickness?
If we take it easy the first few days, is that enough time to get acclimated?
Should we start in at Tuolamne Meadows or would it be better to start in at
the Valley level?
 
We appreciate any advice anyone can offer.  I have only been able to find
books for climbers and the Sierra Club guide to National Parks. Neither
are particularly useful.
 
Thanks.
From: dyurman@igc.apc.org (Dan Yurman)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Floating through a forest fire
Date: 13 Sep 92 23:38:00 GMT
Nf-ID: #R:1992Sep10.223816.16023@ncar.ucar:-344927685:cdp:1449600029:000:446
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!dyurman    Sep 13 16:38:00 1992


Llamas are too valuable to back country guides to allow them
to run free on open range and become crispy critters.  These are
wonderful animals, and can even be trained to guard sheep. 

----------------------------------------------------------------
Dan Yurman            | dyurman@igc.apc.org | Chance favors only
PO Box 1569           | MCI Mail: 364-1277  | the prepared mind.
Idaho Falls, ID 83403 | 43N28 112W02 -7 GMT | -- Louis Pasteur
From: jdeifik@isi.edu (Jeff Deifik)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: For Sale: The North Face Snow Leopard II backpack
Date: 8 Sep 92 17:52:53 GMT
Distribution: ca
Organization: USC-Information Sciences Institute

This is an internal frame backpack, with contoured side hip pockets,
full length vertical zipers, easy access top pocket,
multiple compression straps, ski pockets with drain holes,
and top extension sleeve. 
This is the mens large version. It is a factory second used once.
The volume is 5200 c.i. and it weighs 6 lbs, 6 oz.
The backpack normally sells for $255, seconds for $210, I would like $150.
--
	Jeff (turbo) Deifik		Internet: jdeifik@isi.edu
Phone:	(310) 822-1511 x241 work	(818) 347-3428 home
Bitnet:	jdeifik%isi.edu@cunyvm.cuny.edu	CSnet:    jdeifik%isi.edu@relay.cs.net
Uucp:	...!{harvard,rutgers,uunet,sun,ucbvax,uiucdcs,talcott}!isi.edu!jdeifik
From: akin@sgi.com (Allen Akin)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: water purification methods
Date: 4 Sep 92 23:44:22 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.

In article <lafd3jINNg6d@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> tut@cairo.Eng.Sun.COM (Bill "Bill" Tuthill) writes:
| Personally I feel that the Pur filter-plus-iodine technology is the
| wave of the future...

Have you resolved the question of contact time to your satisfaction?
I'm wondering if your choices with the PUR are:

    1)	Use the activated-charcoal filter element to eliminate iodine
	flavor from the water, but also reduce contact time below the
	point at which iodine is effective on viruses;

    2)	Skip the activated-charcoal filter element in order to
	maximize contact time, but also leave the iodine odor and flavor
	in the filtered water.

Some folks don't mind the taste of the output of the PUR, but I've
talked to others who do.  Caveat emptor.

It seems to me that there's still an opportunity for some manufacturer
to develop a water treatment system superior to any of the current
alternatives.

Allen
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: fanelli@gagme (michael fanelli)
Subject: Re: methanol
Organization: GAGME - Public Access UNIX of Chicago, Illinois, USA, Earth
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Distribution: usa
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 17:31:49 GMT

I use that stove all the time and get my alcohol at any hardware store. I just
looked and the can I have now says "denatured Alcohol"" I use anything marked
as pure alcohol and it works fine!

		mwf


Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: dadams@cray.com (David Adams)
Subject: Re: Cows at 12,000 Feet.
Reply-To: dadams@cray.com
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 8 Sep 92 14:18:25 CDT

In article z7@byu.edu, rosej@wyoming.et.byu.edu (James Rose 225-5106 378-4881) writes:

|	It is particularly disturbing to me to read the "Enjoy and Preserve our 
|fantastic wilderness area" signs when the most destructive visitors to the backcountry |continue to graze "as they have for years".  It seems quite ironic that while signs |encourage us to stay on the trails and respect the fragile streams and lakes, the |powers that be allow thousands of animals to overrun the area.  Does anyone out there |know how we can fight this?

Winchester M70  .308 caliber.  ;^)

[Sarcasim off]

But it is tempting at times isn't it?
From: x90watz@gw.wmich.edu
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Hiking/backpacking references wanted for Colorado Rockies
Date: 8 Sep 92 13:31:30 EST
Organization: Western Michigan University

In article <4wpnndg.kehoe@netcom.com>, kehoe@netcom.com (Thomas David Kehoe) writes:
>>> Can anyone recommend a good guide to hiking in Colorado?
> 
> My favorite hike in Colorado is around the Maroon Bells, near
> Aspen.  It's about a 5 day hike.  I wouldn't recommend it until
> you're acclimated, as it goes over 4 or 5 passes over 12,500 feet.
> 

I just got back from a two week stint in Colorado -- and my favorite hike was a
day hike my roommate and I took up to a place called Mill Creek Basin -- it
connects to Storm Pass and miles and miles more of trails.  It could be as long
or as short a hike as someone wanted.  From Storm Pass their is a view of the
Castles (although we didn't see them due to lack of time) which I've heard is
spectacular.  The entire hike up to the basin, however, is very breathtaking.

Mill Creek Trail is located north of Gunnison just off the road that leads up
into the Ohio Creek Valley.  If you want more info, feel free to mail me.

-Mike-
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: grant@clarinet.com (Grant Robinson)
Subject: Sierra Club endorses Clinton & Gore...
Organization: ClariNet Communications Corp.
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1992 23:38:46 GMT

Apologies if this is old news to any of you, reprinted WITH permission form
ClariNet and UPI (info@clarinet.com for more info):

I especially like the second last paragraph.

From looking!clarinews Fri Sep 04 16:30:21 PDT 1992
From: clarinews@clarinet.com (MARK LANGFORD)
Newsgroups: clari.news.politics,clari.local.texas,clari.tw.environment,clari.news.top
Subject: Sierra Club endorses Clinton/Gore
Keywords: politics, environment
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 92 9:44:16 PDT

	AUSTIN, Texas (UPI) -- The 600,000-member Sierra Club conservation
group Friday endorsed Democratic presidential nominee Bill Clinton,
citing President Bush's ``long, dismal string of broken environmental
promises.''
	Ken Kramer, director of the Sierra Club's 20,000-member Texas
chapter, said Clinton and vice presidential nominee Al Gore reject the
Bush Administration's ``distorted view'' that environmental protection
jeopardizes American jobs.
	The Sierra Club is the nation's oldest environmental and conservation
group with a nationwide membership of 600,000. The endorsement was
announced in Little Rock, Ark., with Clinton and Gore on hand, and at
news conferences in 20 other states.
	Kramer said the Lone Star Chapter is asking its members to work
vigorously for the Democratic ticket. He said the Texas chapter's
executive committee, including members who usually vote Republican,
unanimously approved the Clinton-Gore endorsement.
	``This reason for this strong level of support within the Sierra Club
is obvious,'' Kramer said. ``George Bush's presidency has produced a
long, dismal string of broken environmental promises.''
	He said Bush failed to protect national wetlands, fight the 
``greenhouse effect'' of global warming, pass a national recycling law
or protect the public from air pollution.
	``He has broken every single promise and his administration has been
an environmental disaster,'' Kramer said. ``George Bush has made the
term 'environmental president' and oxymoron, a total contradiction in
terms.''
	Kramer said Clinton, the governor of Arkansas, and Sen. Gore of
Tennessee recognize that a healthy economic future requires a healthy
environment.
	Both Clinton and Gore reject the false dichotomy of 'jobs versus the
environment,' a distorted view of reality that has been perpetuated by
the Bush/Quayle team.``
	In San Francisco, Sierra Club national President H. Anthony Ruckel
said at news conference that ``it's time for America to put someone we
can trust in the White House.''
-- 
Grant Robinson -- ClariNet Communications Corp, Sunnyvale, CA (408)-296-0366
From: shawn@ut-emx.uucp (Shawn Boyd)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Cows at 12,000 Feet.
Date: 11 Sep 92 21:20:20 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin; Austin, Texas

In article <1992Sep09.122431.8160@brtph560.bnr.ca> jbl@mesaadm.cre.nt.com (JB) writes:
>In article <1992Sep9.031056.7565@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> Robert B.
>Whitehurst, rbw3q@helga9.acc.Virginia.EDU writes:
>>>owners of these cattle should be required to pay the going rate for
>grazing.

 Or perhaps more, as until overgrazing takes place, these are prime grounds 
 for grazing.  If we are to keep them that way, at the very least fair market
 prices should be charged for their use, that being some price over and above
 overgrazed ranges.

 In the absence of appropriate regulation of the use of these lands, perhaps
 a bit of plain old capitalistic common sense pay-for-what-you-get types of
 administration of these practices is in order.

>>>Any maybe, just maybe, the Forest Service might consider keeping some
>areas
>>>grazing free to allow people to walk and look up at the trees without
>worrying
>>>about what they just stepped in. 

 Or what's in the water.  Certainly this is in order.  Now try, just try 
 to convince the Department of the Interior that this is a good idea.


 Shawn Boyd

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: flb@lune.berkeley.edu (Frederick Lee Burghardt)
Subject: Re:Hiking in Yosemite in early October 
Reply-To: flb@lune.berkeley.edu (Frederick Lee Burghardt)
Organization: International Computer Science Institute, Berkeley
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 16:13:22 GMT

Hi Margaret,

Re: cold, I just spent Labor Day weekend in Yosemite, and at 6:00AM
there was a pretty good layer of ice on equipment left outside. 
This was Bridalveil Campground (outside of Yosemite Valley). 
Bridalveil is somewhere around 8000 feet, and tends to be colder
than some of the surrounding area i.e. Glacier Point, but should be
a good indication of what to prepare for (it will be colder in a month,
naturally).

In early October, there's no guarantee on weather.  Be prepared for
cold, rain, and snow.  If you are, it's sure to be hot and nice.

I'll send you a copy of some route suggestions I posted here earlier
via email.

Lee Burghardt
From: tucker@shiva.edsg.hac.com (George Tucker)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Floating through a forest fire
Date: 15 Sep 92 16:50:24 GMT
Reply-To: tucker@shiva.UUCP (George Tucker)
Organization: Hughes Aircraft Co., El Segundo, CA

In article <Sep14.153540.68180@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna) writes:
>In article <14594@auspex-gw.auspex.com> johnf@Auspex.COM (John Fereira) writes:
>
>>| We did catch and eat quite a few bull trout 
>>
>>I suppose that is *close* to a cow.
>
>Closer to a char, actually.  Eastern brook trout also are actually a char

What compression algorithm do you use to make both of those a char?
Is a short one a bit and a long one an int?
Are bull trout attracted by red capes?  Can I spear one and be a matador?

	 George Tucker        tucker@tcville.hac.com
GM Executive (paraphrased): Expanding Saturn production is not appropriate.
	As those buyers mature, they will move up to traditional GM models.
Too many Quayludes.
From: tut@cairo.Eng.Sun.COM (Bill "Bill" Tuthill)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: water purification methods
Date: 7 Sep 1992 18:27:11 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc., Mountain View, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: cairo

tut@cairo.Eng.Sun.COM (Bill "Bill" Tuthill) writes:
> 
> ... With a .4 micron filter, the First Need does not get every E. coli
> (rod-shaped, 1-2 microns long, between .3 and .4 microns wide) or
> pseudomonas such as the one that causes Rocky Mountain fever (spherical,
> no cell membrane, between .3 and .4 microns in diameter).

Who is this jerk Bill "Bill" Tuthill?  Rickettsia, the bacteria that causes
Rocky Mountain Fever, is not a pseudomona, though it is about the same size.
It lacks a cell wall, but does have a cell membrane, like all bacteria.  RMF
is transmitted by ticks, but is probably not infectious in an oral vector.

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: markd@cup.hp.com (Mark_Donohoe)
Subject: Re: Hiking in Yosemite in early October
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 18:45:51 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1.3 PL5

Margaret Krebs (MARGARET@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu) wrote:
: My husband and I are planning a week-long trip in Yosemite.  We'd like to do a
: 45-50 mile loop or two shorter loops.  We are assuming there won't be crowds
: this time of year.  

This should be fine.  But, depending on where you are, you may see people. (The
locals like to go this time of year.)
:  
: I'm concerned about how cold is it likely to be.  It appears as if most of the
: trails are in the 8,000 range.  Are we likely to get snow? or will the nights
: be cold and the days warm?

It's a toss up.  You could get everything...warmth, rain, sleet, snow, hail...
Be prepared.  The weather can change fast this time of year above 8k.  Don't
mean to scare you, but if you are at the 8k level and above, you should be
prepared.  My experience, is that at this time of year, the nights are 
generally frosty (I like it that way), and the days warm and mild.  We have 
been having quite a few thunder showers in the range this year...depending
on the mositure supply, we may get more.  I have been in snow at T. Meadows
in July and Aug.  and have been in the area in Oct. with t-shirt days.

It's a great time to go.
:  
: Since we are from the east and have done most of our hiking in the Northwest,
: we've never been above 8,000 feet.  Are we likely to get altitude sickness?
: If we take it easy the first few days, is that enough time to get acclimated?
: Should we start in at Tuolamne Meadows or would it be better to start in at
: the Valley level?

Generally no, sleep at altitude 1st before doing much strenous(sp) things...
drink lots of fluids and see how it goes.  It should only take a day or 2 for
your body to get used to it...but you will feel the altitude even after
aclimitization....that's how it goes.

Stop in at the valley.  You will find lots of books in the mtn. shop.
:  
: We appreciate any advice anyone can offer.  I have only been able to find
: books for climbers and the Sierra Club guide to National Parks. Neither
: are particularly useful.
:  

Be prepared to hang your food.

Have a good time!
--
Mark Donohoe (markd@cup.hp.com)

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: ilana@kiowa.scd.ucar.edu (Ilana Stern)
Subject: Re: Floating through a forest fire
Organization: NCAR/UCAR
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 18:28:27 GMT

[Warning, minor environmentalist rant ahead.]

In article <1992Sep11.170452.9976@nas.nasa.gov>, eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya) writes:
> In article <1992Sep11.154601.21455@ncar.ucar.edu>
> ilana@kiowa.scd.ucar.edu (Ilana Stern) writes:
> >
> >(No cows along the Salmon, at least none that we saw.  Not counting
> >cow elk, of course.) 
> 
> Cows?  Hell (s Canyon) terrestial animal flesh?
> Well, what about a nice, fresh, finely poached salmon?
> Thin fillets, flakey, orange meat which melts in your mouth...

Salmon from the Salmon River?  You must be joking! :-(
Do you know how many dams are between the Salmon River and the Pacific?
The Salmon flows into the Snake, which flows into the Columbia, the 
most dammed river on the continent, I believe (pun fully intended).

From the newspaper "High Country News", September 7 1992 comes the
information that at Redfish Lake, which feeds the Salmon River some
900 miles upstream of the Pacific ocean, only one male sockeye salmon
had returned to spawn as of Aug 31 of this year.  Last year, four made
it;  the previous year, none did.  In 1955, nearly 4400 fish made
the migration.  Dams and drought (=> low river flow) are blamed.

Special fishing regulations for the Salmon River (you bet we got
fishing licenses -- one of our party (my father-in-law) is a retired
Colorado Game and Fish officer) ask fishermen to release any salmon
or steelhead trout (which has recently been reclassified as a salmon)
caught.  We did catch and eat quite a few bull trout and rainbow
trout, though -- yum!

(By the way, according to Idaho fishing regulations, if you are floating
down the river in a rubber raft and run a rapid such that your boat
takes on a lot of water:  if you discover any fish in your boat that
have been splashed in with the water, you have to throw them back.)
-- 
/\                Ilana Stern DoD#009  ilana@ncar.ucar.edu 
  \_][ <--NCAR       Colorado...is totally rectangular.
      \_Boulder______________________________________________________Kansas__
From: edb@hpgrla.gr.hp.com (Ed Beshore)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 18:28:07 GMT
Subject: Re: Cows at 12,000 Feet.
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Greeley, CO
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry

Unfortunately, the original Wilderness act (mid sixty's I think) grandfathered
in grazing rights.

There is a lot of discussion these days about the welfare that Uncle Sam
is giving ranchers.  This is particularly an issue when you consider
we get somthing less than 3-5% of our total beef production from these
guys.

Ed Abbey said it best... (I paraphrase) "Only ranchers shoot every animal
in sight, graze the land to nothing, pollute the water and then sit back
with their feet up and say 'God I love the West'"

I highly suggest you write your Congressman and suggest:

1. That grazing in wilderness areas be phased out.

2. That BLM raises grazing fees on public lands so that it can restore
   any damage done and cover administrative and enforcement costs.

3. Reduce grazing to sustainable levels.


Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: bill@gaza.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu (William J. King)
Subject: binoculars sought
Organization: University of Hawaii
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 02:39:58 GMT



Still looking for suggestions of binoculars for backpacking.
any recommendations?

thanx

--
    bill@uhunix.bitnet 
    bill@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu 
    21.19 N.LAT by 157.52 W.LONG          
    Fish on the Byte
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From:  (jmhodapp@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu)
Subject: Re: Hiking/backpacking references wanted for Colorado Rockies
Organization: haphazard, at best
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 92 15:17:33 GMT

In article <1992Sep8.133130.5159@gw.wmich.edu>, x90watz@gw.wmich.edu writes:
> 

> >>> Can anyone recommend a good guide to hiking in Colorado?
> > 
While this is not a guide, merely a recommendation, it holds well.
If you are in Denver/Colorado Springs for at least a day, climb Pike's
Peak.  No technical difficulty with the trail (make sure weather will
permit, as always).  If you get up early, you can hit the summit by
mid-afternoon (even with slower climbers) and ride the cog rail back down.

A nice, novice climb for the somewhat altitude acclimated.  And,
you can make fun of all the people who drove up.  Plus,
homemade donuts at the top!

Jon  jmhodapp@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu
==================================
Cogito, ergo sum  - I think, therefore I am
Cogito sumere potum alterum - I think I'll have another drink