HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: thomas@datamark.co.nz (Thomas Beagle)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Indexing (was: *** Why is rewriting bad?)
Date: 25 Jan 93 19:27:38 GMT
Article-I.D.: datamark.1993Jan25.192738.51901
Organization: Datamark International Ltd.

In article <1993Jan22.210427.2947@sqwest.wimsey.bc.ca> marcy@sqwest.wimsey.bc.ca (Marcy Thompson) writes:
>>In article Thomas Beagle writes:
>>
>>|> ObWriting : When writing a manual, do you index as you go (and risk
>>|> all sorts of incompatibilities) or do you index after the bulk of the
>>|> manual is written?
>
>As we go. We use SGML and our document structure includes index elements.
>You can put them in as you go. ("Oh, I'm writing about error messages. That
>should go into the index. BANG! There it is.")

I use software with similar capabilities to yours. (Word offers index
headings and hidden tags within the main document.)

But when indexing as you go, how do you ensure that the index will be
internally consistent?

For example, if you're talking about function keys, you might get into
the trap of indexing under function keys for half of them, and under
the individual commands for the other half. (Bad example but you get
the idea.)

Or do you catch this at the editing stage?

>I've worked in shops where the indexing was done by hand at the end of the
>process. This is much, much better. Much better. 

I can't help thinking that indexing by hand should be banned under the
Geneva Convention. :-)

-- 
    Thomas Beagle | thomas@datamark.co.nz           Work: 64 4 233 8186
 Technical Writer | thomas@cavebbs.welly.gen.nz     Home: 64 4 499 3832
   Wellington, NZ | Yes, I do have long ears, a black nose, and a tail.
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: thomas@datamark.co.nz (Thomas Beagle)
Subject: Re: *** Why is rewriting bad ?
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 20:35:46 GMT
Organization: Datamark International Ltd.

In article <77124@apple.apple.COM> chuq@Apple.COM (Crow's Friend Timmy) writes:
>
>I know, I know. Injecting facts into a USENET argument is worth two demerits.

Yes, but you're just as bad as a Nazi. :-)

Now this thread has officially reached rock-bottom, perhaps we could
move on?


ObWriting : When writing a manual, do you index as you go (and risk
all sorts of incompatibilities) or do you index after the bulk of the
manual is written?


-- 
    Thomas Beagle | thomas@datamark.co.nz           Work: 64 4 233 8186
 Technical Writer | thomas@cavebbs.welly.gen.nz     Home: 64 4 499 3832
   Wellington, NZ | Yes, I do have long ears, a black nose, and a tail.
From: saslpo@stevens.unx.sas.com (Len Olszewski)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Suggestion:  misc.writing.fiction, misc.writing.non-fiction
Date: 26 Jan 93 18:07:14 GMT
Organization: SAS Institute Inc.
Originator: saslpo@stevens.unx.sas.com


In article <1k26j0INN25m@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu>, mgcbo@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Charles B. Owen) writes:
|>
|> It seems to me that there should be two boards, misc.writing.fiction,
|> and misc.writing.non-fiction.  While some issues are common, they really
|> are very, very different.  There seems to be about even discussion of
|> entertainment and technical writing in this group and it is pretty
|> active.  Just a suggestion.  Any option?
|>
|>
|> --
|> | Charles B. Owen                            Internet: mgcbo@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu |
|> | Western Illinois University                            Phone: 309-837-4292 |
|> | 1002 E. Murray                                                             |
|> | Macomb, IL  61455                                                          |

Where I work, they eliminate newsgroups that have nothing to do
"directly" with work or with self-acutalization. I agree with you in
principle about a proposed new group, but as a practical matter, I'd
probably lose contact with the "non"-non-fiction postings. And I enjoy
reading about fiction as well as non-fiction writing. Since the traffic
on this group is far from overpowering, I would suggest there's room
enough for everybody, and folks can kill the articles in which they are
not interested. To me, this group is sort of like the funnies - I read
'em all!
<-------------------------------^------------------------------------->
|Len Olszewski, Technical Writer |"You can observe a lot by watching."|
|saslpo@unx.sas.com|Cary, NC, USA| - Yogi Berra |
|---------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Opinions this ludicrous are mine. Reasonable opinions will cost you.|
<-------------------------------v------------------------------------->
From: johnh@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (John J Humpal)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Suggestion:  misc.writing.fiction, misc.writing.non-fiction
Date: 27 Jan 1993 12:53:32 -0500
Organization: Homewood Academic Computing, Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, Md, USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu


In article <1k26j0INN25m@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu> mgcbo@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Charles B. Owen) writes:
>It seems to me that there should be two boards, misc.writing.fiction,
>and misc.writing.non-fiction.  While some issues are common, they really
>are very, very different.  There seems to be about even discussion of
>entertainment and technical writing in this group and it is pretty
>active.  Just a suggestion.  Any option?


	I'm opposed to the idea of splitting this group.  The traffic here
is very light (maybe 6-12 posts/day?), so it's not very difficult to weed
out the ones I don't want to read.  Besides, I believe there is some
cross-fertilizing benefit in having different kinds of writers share a
forum.

-- 
-John

John J. Humpal -- johnh@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu -- short .sig, std. disclaimer

Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: sasjcs@canoe.unx.sas.com (Joan Stout)
Subject: Re: Indexing (was: *** Why is rewriting bad?)
Originator: sasjcs@canoe.unx.sas.com
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 21:49:59 GMT
Organization: SAS Institute Inc.


In article <1993Jan26.181754.9854@sqwest.wimsey.bc.ca>, marcy@sqwest.wimsey.bc.ca (Marcy Thompson) writes:

|> >I can't help thinking that indexing by hand should be banned under the
|> >Geneva Convention. :-)
|>
|> No argument here. I think it also contravenes the constitutional ban on
|> cruel and unusual punishment if you happen to be in the US. :-)
|>
|> Marcy
|>
|> --
|>
|> Marcy Thompson
|>   SoftQuad (West)
|>     marcy@sqwest.wimsey.bc.ca (preferred) or marcy@sq.com

Hey! Some of us *like* indexing and some of us do it for a living.
(In my case, only *part* of my living.) Some of us even like it 
enough to do most of it by hand. I have indexing software to take
care of the real drudgery, but a professional indexer knows that
computers can't index.

Joan

<------------------------------->
|  Joan Stout                   |
|  Technical Writer             |
|  sasjcs@unx.sas.com           |
|  SAS Institute, Inc.          |
|  Cary, NC 919 677-8000        |
<------------------------------->
From: dprezios@ep.ieee.org (D Preziosi)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Rules of Thumb
Date: 21 Jan 93 15:01:28 GMT
Reply-To: dprezios@ep.ieee.org
Organization: IEEE, New York, NY

One rule of thumb I like (and I don't remember how I came to abide by it)
is to never show a rough draft to anyone. Something about too many opinions 
too early on.... Also, I try to get something on paper--WHATEVER it may be--
WHENEVER I feel motivated. Thus the value of keeping a journal. Finally,if
I don't feel motivated , I type up some of those old handwritten scraps 
(does anyone uses a pen and paper anymore?). I've found that I end
up doing a lot of revision/rewriting under the guise of typing mindlessly.
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: saslpo@stevens.unx.sas.com (Leonard Paul Olszewski)
Subject: Re: *** Why is rewriting bad ?/It ain't
Originator: saslpo@stevens.unx.sas.com
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 13:27:23 GMT
Organization: SAS Institute Inc.


In article <ELIZ.93Jan20215452@august.ai.mit.edu>, eliz@ai.mit.edu (Elizabeth Willey) writes:
|>

[stuff deleted

|> For technical (descriptive) and letter-writing, which are far more
|> focused and task-driven than fiction writing, it is probably easier to
|> get it right in the first draft.  Still, the quality of much of the
|> writing in handbooks and on business correspondence is so bad that
|> clearly there are very few who can get it right on the first, or even
|> the second, pass.
|>

Indeed, this is true; unfortunately, this is hardly possible. Anyone who
writes technical material in one draft produces very bad technical
material. I usually work with three drafts. In the first, I try to get
everything in, don't worry too much about the words, and understand the
overall structure is open for negotiation. In the second, I try to get
all of the factual errors corrected, add any omissions, fix the
structure, and start to polish. In the third, I eliminate any remaining
factual errors (with any luck), and I lay the final concise, clear,
consistent wording into place. Then the editors get it and straighten it 
out 8-).

|>
|> Elizabeth Willey
|>
|> [And for my own practice, I write and rewrite until I come as close to
|> BEST as I can.  I'd hate to put my name on something I wasn't proud of
|> having written.]

Me too. Sometimes I have to settle to meet the deadline, though. Sigh.
<-------------------------------^------------------------------------->
|Len Olszewski, Technical Writer |"Thou gettest no bread with one     |
|saslpo@unx.sas.com|Cary, NC, USA| meatball." - Robert Sheckley       |
|---------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Opinions this ludicrous are mine. Reasonable opinions will cost you.|
<-------------------------------v------------------------------------->


Newsgroups: misc.writing,comp.text.desktop,comp.graphics,comp.edu.composition
From: aba@hp835.mitek.com (Binion Amerson)
Subject: 40th STC Annual Conference--Preview of Sessions
Summary: Advance Program Available February 1993
Keywords: STC, technical writing, editing, visual communication 
Organization: OpenConnect Systems, Dallas, TX
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 14:04:08 GMT

   A T T E N T I O N    P R O F E S S I O N A L    C O M M U N I C A T O R S

     40TH STC ANNUAL CONFERENCE, POST-CONFERENCE WORKSHOPS, AND EXPOSITION
                     Loews Anatole Hotel, Dallas, Texas, USA
                                 June 6-10, 1993

                               SUMMARY OF SESSIONS

The Program Committee of the 40th Society for Technical Communication (STC)
Annual Conference, Post-Conference Workshops, and Exposition has scheduled 
193 Technical Sessions, 9 Post-Conference Workshops, 7 Professional Interest 
Committee (PIC) meetings, and numerous other related conference activities.

Technical Sessions (June 6-9):
  Writing and Editing            36 Sessions
  Education and Training         36 Sessions
  Research and Technology        36 Sessions
  Management                     33 Sessions
  Visual Communication           21 Sessions
  STC Chapter Development        16 Sessions

Post-Conference Workshops (June 10):
  Product Usability: Survival Techniques         Jared Spool
  Teaching Technical Communication               Alice Philbin
  Designing and Delivering Effective Training    Celia Clark
  Indexing Technical Documents                   Larry Bonura
  Creating On-Line Documentation                 Dorothy Poole
  Script Design for Information Video            S. M. (Marty) Shelton
  The Real Cost of Technical Publications        Saul Carliner (1/2 day)
  Contextual Inquiry in Information Design       Minette Beabes (1/2 day) 

The 40th STC Annual Conference Advance Program:
  * Details all Conference Activities
  * Details all Hospitality Events
  * Describes all Technical Sessions
  * Describes the Post-Conference Workshops
  * Provides Registration Material
  * Provides Exposition Information
  * Contains much, much more.

For a copy of the Advance Program, contact the Society for Technical 
Communication, 901 North Stuart Street, Suite 904, Arlington, Virginia 
22203-1854; telephone 703/522-4114; fax 703/522-2075.  Or, send E-Mail to 
aba@oc.com and leave your name, address, and telephone number.

NOTE: STC members automatically receive the Advance Program and Registration 
Information about the 40th STC Annual Conference.  The Advance Program will be 
mailed in February 1993.

Binion Amerson, aba@oc.com
General Manager, 40th STC Annual Conference

-- 
 Binion Amerson, Senior Technical Writer, OpenConnect Systems, 2711 LBJ Frwy,  
 Suite 800, Dallas, TX 75234; 214/888-0447; 214/484-6100 (fax); aba@oc.com
 General Manager: 40th STC Annual Conference, June 6-10, 1993, Dallas, TX
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: mtan@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Maureen Tan)
Subject: Re: Not revising - with a twist
Followup-To: misc.writing
Organization: UIUC
Distribution: misc.writing
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 15:32:44 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.213705.6410@digi.lonestar.org>,
gpalo@digi.lonestar.org (Gerry Palo) wrote:

> As far as using Heinlein's rule, I wonder if anyone has ever tried it, with
> the added twist that when you finish a piece, if it is not worth submitting,
> then throw it away and start something new - don't submit it at all.
> I admit this would be very hard to do, but the discipline might help one to
> improve one's overall skills and productivity.  I would think also that the
> act of throwing a piece away might help in detaching one's ego from the
> work, something I find very difficult to do. 
> 
> Any takers?


Oh, God!  Throw away one of my children?!

Maureen (a.k.a. Jane)
=================================================
Maureen Tan                                                                
                            Who dares,
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign                           Wins.
mtan@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
=======================================================
The opinions expressed here are undoubtedly *not* those of my employer!
From: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: *** Why is rewriting bad ?/It ain't
Date: 23 Jan 93 00:08:41 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada

When I was a young lad, one of my heroes and mentors was the mystery writer
Stanley Ellin. His method of writing was unusual--he would think out the
general structure of the story, and then write page one. He would rewrite
page one until he had it just the way he wanted it. Then, and only then,
would he move on to page two...and so on. I could never do it, but then I
could never write stories like "The Specialty of the House" or novels like
The Eighth Circle. And even monsters of productivity like Evan Hunter were in
awe of both Stan's work and his method of creating it.


--
Crawford Kilian   Communications Department   Capilano College
North Vancouver BC Canada V7J 3H5
Usenet: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca
Internet: ckilian@first.etc.bc.ca
From: kers@hplb.hpl.hp.com (Chris Dollin)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 09:33:35 GMT
Subject: Re: Not revising - with a twist
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Bristol, UK.
Newsgroups: misc.writing

In article ... mgcbo@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Charles B. Owen) writes:

   Many famous writers and not so famous writers can do, but also teach in
   various forms.  It is my assertion that Heinlein was a great writer, is
   now a good writer, is not really as concerned about improving his work
   and does, to some extent, ride on his name.  

He's dead, Jim.
--

Regards,    | "You're better off  not dreaming of  the things to come;
Kers.       | Dreams  are always ending  far too soon." - Caravan.
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: kyrsten@eos.arc.nasa.gov (Kyrsten Swazey)
Subject: on self-editing and an intro. to fiction writing class
Organization: NASA Ames Research Center
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 19:36:17 GMT

I just began an introductory fiction writing class, actually an
"intermediate" level course, as it is assumed that the people in the
class have had some prior experience writing.  It is largely workshop-
oriented and i have begun to have a problem with the concept of what it
means to participate in a workshop format.
When i am critiquing an individual's story, i look for craft ("does this
story unfold in a typical manner and, if not, are the deviations
enhancing?" and the ilk).  However, i am also very conscious of word-
choice, grammar, spelling and all those nasty details.  Our instructor
has repeatedly stated that any editor (?) can clean these up
effortlessly.  Most people use word processors and have spell, if not
also grammar, checks.  
Does this reliance upon a computer or someone else hinder ones actual
talent as a writer?  I believe it does--what else is a writer but
someone who can express themself in the most immediate and touching way?
Are they not supposed to be the best at what they claim to do?
Am i looking at this in the wrong way?

-kyrsten

Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: tcmay@netcom.com (Timothy C. May)
Subject: Re: Work in Progress
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 09:48:44 GMT

I Bleed Teal (chuq@Apple.COM) wrote:

: >And Storyspace is even more of a step
: >forward.
: 
: Hmm. A Mac program I've never heard of. Who does it? Cost? Details?

Storyspace--Eastgate Systems, 800-562-1638, a true bidirectional
hypertext system, $215, discussed by Tom Maddox in Dec. "Locus" (I
think), and discussed a few weeks ago in this group (and in alt.hypertext).

Used by several writers for writing classes, including Robert Coover. 

A new version, 1.3, is due out Real Soon Now. Mark Bernstein, a
principal at Eastgate Systems, Inc., has commented in this group.

: I'm waiting for Thoughtpattern 2.0 to wander out, too. Seems similar to
: this.

I have ThoughtPattern 1.3 and can say there's no comparison. TP is a
database of sorts, Storyspace is a full hypertext writing system.
Check out David Bolter's "Writing Space" (a book, though a Storyspace
version is also available, from Eastgate, natch) for some screen shots
and discussion.

-Tim May

-- 
..........................................................................
Timothy C. May         | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money,  
tcmay@netcom.com       | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero
408-688-5409           | knowledge, reputations, information markets, 
W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA  | black markets, collapse of governments.
Higher Power: 2^756839 | Public Key: waiting for the dust to settle.

Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: lgolder@hoh.mbl.edu (Robert Golder)
Subject: Re: Publishing and Illustrators
Organization: Marine Biological Laboratory
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 93 15:41:57 GMT

In article <1993Jan28.004435.21991@bmerh85.bnr.ca>, 
nadeau@bnr.ca (Rheal Nadeau) writes:
> 
> In article <1993Jan27.194000.2154@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> 
earp@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (J.Kevin Earp) writes:
> >Recently a friend asked this question: She has two children's books
> >completed.  Would a publisher hire the illustrator and arrange for
> >the artwork, or should she do so.  
> 
> Publishers have their own illustratrors.  They want to control the look,
> the layout, of the book.  

>        The Rhealist - nadeau@bnr.ca - Speaking only for myself
> 
I think what Rheal means is that each publisher has a list of freelance
illustrators whose work has been used in previous publications.
The publisher will select the illustrator whose artistic style seems
most appropriate for a particular manuscript.  If the author knows of
a particular illustrator whose work she admires, she should recommend
the illustrator to the publisher, who will then evaluate the illustrator's
suitability for the job.  Authors have recommended my illustrative work
to various publishers: sometimes I got the job, and other times the
publisher elected to go with an illustrator whose style and work habits
were a known quantity.  If the author has no particular illustrator in
mind, she might consider approaching a publisher who not only
handles manuscripts that are similar to hers, but also uses artwork that
she enjoys or admires.

BTW, the "look" or layout of the book is often developed by a graphic
designer (specifically, a book designer) who combines both text and
artwork into a unified whole.  This person often enhances, but sometimes
degrades, the quality of the final work.

Bob
 
Newsgroups: misc.writing
(Smail3.1.28.1 #7) id m0nGj3s-0000L2C; Mon, 25 Jan 93 21: 42 PST
From: chrisc@pro-harold.cts.com (Chris Carstens)
Subject: Re: Rules for writers
Organization: The Harold Network -- An Alliance For Creative Communication
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 21:07:01 PST

Here are my rules of thumb -- mostly learned from my dad, who was a better
editor than I've ever had the privilege of working with since.

1)  Kill your darlings.  If is sounds wonderful, like it could simply not
be said any better, it's probably something you read.  Sometimes you work
an entire paragraph around one ever so clever sentence -- kill em, and
write straight prose.

2)  If it's really important, let somebody you trust read it before you
send it out.

3)  Corrolary to #2 -- listen to what your trusted reader has to say.

4)  Outline in complete sentences.  Any really good piece of non-fiction
can usually be summarized in a single sentence, whether it's a book or a
600 word article.  If you can't write the sentence, you don't know what the
piece is about yet.  The discipline of the complete sentence forces you to
really think your ideas through before you start writing.  

5)  Trying to write non-fiction without a complete written outline is like
trying to drive from Los Angeles to Dubuque without a map.  It can be done,
but it's not sensible.

6)  When your're out of things to say, stop.

Chris.
-----
Chris Carstens
ProLine: chrisc@pro-harold
Internet: chrisc@pro-harold.cts.com
UUCP: crash!pro-harold!chrisc
San Diego, California, USA
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: mapd1@syma.sussex.ac.uk (Nigel Ling)
Subject: Re: Writing Fiction on Computer
Organization: University of Sussex
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 12:13:38 GMT

Newsgroups: comp.ai,rec.arts.books,misc.writing,rec.arts.int-fiction
Subject: Re: Computer writes a book?
Summary: 
Expires: 
Followup-To: 
Distribution: 
Organization: University of Sussex
Keywords: 

In article <1993Jan26.145900.1536@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> echristo@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Elena A Christofides) writes:
>Well, it hasn't actually written a book, but....
>
>My husband wrote a program that writes poetry. This program is actually in 
>basic.
>
>In my modern poetry class a while ago, we had to submit up to three poems that 
>were our own original work. Both my poems got A-/B+, whereas the computers poem
>got an A+!
>
>My instructor was none the wiser at the time - it was a little joke to show 
>that the computer could write a L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E poem as good if not better than
>the language poets themselves!

Either that or your instructor didn't know much about poetry :-)
What's a language poet anyway? Someone who writes bad poetry, dare I
suggest? :-) :-)

Nigel
From: levin@bbn.com (Joel B Levin)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Suggestion:  misc.writing.fiction, misc.writing.non-fiction
Date: 26 Jan 93 22:15:06 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: bbn.com

In <1k26j0INN25m@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu>
   mgcbo@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Charles B. Owen) says:
|It seems to me that there should be two boards, misc.writing.fiction,
|and misc.writing.non-fiction.  While some issues are common, they really
|are very, very different.  There seems to be about even discussion of
|entertainment and technical writing in this group and it is pretty
|active.  Just a suggestion.  Any option?

There is some overlap, and many readers like to read both (and might
not be able to).  But the main reason _not_ to split the group is that
there is not all that much traffic now.  When the number of daily
postings grows substantially it will be time to divide this group.

My opinion, of course.
	/J
=
Nets: levin@bbn.com  |  "There were sweetheart roses on Yancey Wilmerding's
POTS: (617)873-3463  |  bureau that morning.  Wide-eyed and distraught, she
              N1MNF  |  stood with all her faculties rooted to the floor."
                     |					-- S. J. Perelman
Newsgroups: misc.writing