From: shack@cs.arizona.edu (David Shackelford)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Where I'm coming from [somewhat long] (Was Re: 20/20 and Spanking)
Date: 10 Nov 92 06:00:36 GMT
Organization: U of Arizona CS Dept, Tucson

In article <1992Nov10.001634.8940@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov> lauraf@classy.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Laura Floom) writes:
 >Regarding David, we are not talking about someone who posted an article and
 >that was it. he has posted (as of this morning) 22 posts on this thread. (my
 >mailer gives that info, easily). Basically, the thread has grown around his
 >posts. I think it is important to know what his experience with kids is.  

I babysat for ~10 kids at various times, following at all times the
parents orders regarding discipline.  I have 3 nieces and 1.999
nephews (2nd one due momentarily), and helped my sister with two of
the girls.  I love them all as though they were my own kids, and they
all act like I'm the greatest.  I fully intend to have kids of my own,
after getting married next year.  I'm 6 years older than my youngest
brother and was responsible for him about 20% of the time (mostly
nights and weekends) between the ages of 5 and ~12.

I have read countless books and articles on various childrearing
topics, and find that most of the views expressed on this group have
been in and out of style several times going back as far as the UA
library has material.  I would like to coorelate the material I have
read with crime rates and other data, but don't have time to spend on
it.  My guess would be that juvenile crime rates, both reported and
unreported, are higher now than they were in the 191x's.  The
significance is that nearly all articles from the 191x's and before
advocate authoritative parenting style backed up with OCCASIONAL
spanking.  (NOTE: authoritative <> authoritarian.  The difference is
authoritative COMMUNICATES the meaning of good behavior, bad behavior,
and the designated consequences -- you say what the child should do,
say what she shouldn't do, say what will happen if she breaks the
rules, and do what you said you'd do).

This doesn't add up to being a parent, but I'm certainly not without
some small amount of knowledge and experience.

 >Misc.kids has a lot of really wonderful people in it. I coorespond with quite 
 >a few, and have met several.  I think it is a great newsgroup for learing about
 >kids, and swapping stories. Every so often we get a poster here who doesnt have
 >kids, doesnt seem to like them, and (hopefully) will never have them.

I like kids a lot -- holding my opinion vs the industrial strength
flamethrowers would be impossible if I didn't really care about kids.

 They
 >basically upset a lot of people. We *know* people like that exist, but most
 >of just enjoy probably dont like being exposed to them here. I know there is
 >nothing we can do about it (except kill files - which not everyone has), but it
 >is still upsetting. Personally, I am not sure why those type of people come in
 >here, unless it is some sort of mean spirited need to upset us. If they
 >dont have kids, and dont like/want them then they arent going to learn much
 >from us. 

Your premise that I don't like kids or want them is incorrect.

           If they are just here to tell us how to raise our kids, I just
 >wish they wouldnt.

I have stated on several occasions that I don't want to tell you how
to raise your kids.  I only want to advocate a different point of view
to show that not everyone agrees with "expert" advice, nor does
everyone think it's reasonable to say something like "spanking is
always bad" or "all spanking no matter what circumstance or degree is
abuse".

If you decide to take my advice and broaden your choices, but never
spank your kids, then I have succeeded by encouraging you to consider
it.  If you won't even consider it, then I have failed.  I don't care
whether you actually spank or not.

If I take your advice and never spank, you have succeeded in
convincing me its a bad idea.  If on the other hand I listen to your
advice but find that its still necessary to spank, you've still
succeeded by getting me to listen.  Whether I actually spank shouldn't
be your concern.  I *HAVE* listened to things people say on this
group, and you've already won some battles ;-)

                 I am trying to figure out where David fits in all of this.
 >He seems to have avoided answering any questions about his own background. I
 >am not sure why. I am not the only person asking.

My current status, future intentions notwithstanding, tends to make
closed-minded people stop listening.  I care deeply about children and
can't stand to see excessive permissiveness damage their future.  I
don't necessarily *want* people to spank, neither do I necessarily
intend to do it myself.  I just want it recognized that *sometimes*
its the best thing to do.  Maybe not even *half* the time, but some
irresponsible psychologists are willing to "cook" statistical data to
make it seem like it *never* works better than anything else.

Dave
Newsgroups: misc.kids