HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Eagles (was re: Bears)
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1992 17:39:00 -0700

In a message dated 19 Jul 92  18:00:31, Tim Radzykewycz wrote:

> I've seen eagles thousands of times (but I still stop and
> look).  Apparently, for the rest of the U.S., eagles are
> becoming legend and transcending themselves.  They are
> magnificent birds, true, but not necessarily any more so than
> any number of other birds that you can still find in the Lower
> 48.

 TR> Some people might take Frank's comment to mean that eagles are not
 TR> special.  I don't think he meant it that way at all -- I think

No, I didn't, and thanks for being gentle on me, I often say things that don't
sound like I meant.  :)  But onwards...

 TR> he just meant to say that lots of other animals are magnificent
 TR> and majestic as well.  But I *am* confused about why he used the
 TR> word "transcending".  It seems to me that eagles are just now
 TR> coming into their full reputation, which more mundane creatures

What I meant is, the eagle has become a symbol.  I saw someone on the TV selling
this eagle statuette, clearly aiming at people who had never seen an eagle or
only seen one once in a zoo for a few minutes.  They're selling a "legend of an
eagle", not an eagle.  And more importantly, and this is where the word
"transcending" comes in, the legend requires no REAL eagles.  The local Native
cultures here have the eagle and raven as major parts of their religion and
myth, but these stories and traditions INVOLVE the actual eagles and ravens that
fly about.  The symbol IS the thing.  Contrast the way a typical Christian looks
at a statuette of Christ.  The symbol is nothing.  It's just a reminder of the
thing.  

I'm grasping at saying something that Margot Adler said in
_Drawing_Down_The_Moon_, so lemme find that... OK, page 27, "the worshipper who
stands before a statue or a grove of trees can see no further than that statue
or grove, that such a worshipper invests divinity in those things and nothing
more..."  OK, so replace "worship" with "respect" and you see my idea.  The
eagle statuette is an "idol" which is no longer a symbol of an actual, living,
eagle to these people.  "Oh, Henry dear, this statuette looks wonderful in our
living room, isn't the eagle magnificent" does not have ANY RELATION at all to
possible feelings of "Eagles are magnificent beings" or "We must preserve
eagles" or "I respect eagles" or, in fact anything about eagles at all, only
about this transcendent, non-imminent, sublime, abstract image presented by the
statuette.

Perhaps it is because eagles are as rare as supernovae or good politicians down
south that they have become a legend no longer connected to anything.  If the
last of the real eagles die off, someday, the eagle could easily become a legend
that would evolve till it had nothing in common with the real birds, some of
whom are flying right outside my window right now.  That would be a shame in
some ways.  I hope if the eagle-legend ever COMPLETELY transcends the actual
eagle, the legend is at least a good one.

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: eshin@ddsw1.mcs.com (Eshin-Fun)
Subject: Re: Movies with pagan themes
Organization: ddsw1.MCS.COM Contributor, Chicago IL
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 03:03:40 GMT
X-Disclaimer:  Material posted in this article is the sole responsibility of
                the poster and does not represent MCSNet or the system owners.

>>canders@isr.harvard.edu (Carl E. Anderson) writes:
: In article <BrMALL.1n6@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> lrfox@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (linda ream fox) writes:
: >The Wicker Man is also a good movie.  Everybody winds up happy.  The pagans get a good sacrifice, and the Christian becomes a martyr for the faith.  What more could you ask?
: 
: 	Is this movie out on video?  I have heard rumors that either the
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: Albion Band or Ashley Hutchings alone was involved with the soundtrack.
: 
: Carl<<


Yes! It is out on VHS and can be rented at "Blockbuster" in Chicago. I'm
sure that is can be found on other rental outlets.

Eshin-Fun

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Subject: Re: >suggestion<
Organization: FERMILAB
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 19:36:46 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalno.fnal.gov
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <krikket.4963@meltdown.chi.il.us>, krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 
'krikket' Krick) writes:

> Oh High Priest of mine,

*snicker* Fine, fine.  Now I know how Peregrine felt at Goddess Gathering when
Morningstar introduced him to everyone as "Lord Peregrine."

>         I humbly beg to differ with the opnion you stated.  For I find that
> there are many Pagans out there who identify themselves as "Pagan" as opposed
> to "Wicca", "Voodoun", or even "Santero" or any other of the myriad sub-catagories that can be found under "Pagan".  For many people, even those
> who belong to "The Church of the Literate" [For all on-lookers, this is a
> legal pagan group that I helped set up.  We used "Church" to make the process
> simpiler for us...  ULC, ya' know?] don't directly identify with any of the
> sub-catagories because they are often learning paganism and magical studies
> through trial and error, using and blending many of the different
> sub-catagories of Paganism, and having fun at it at the same time.
> 
>         How else, but as a "Pagan" would you identify someone who blends
> "Wiccan Formula Magic" (tm) with "Neo-Shamanism" [I refuse to call it 
> Shamanism, for the Amer. Inds would be appalled at it!] a good healthy dose 
> of a few obscure pagan traditions [IE: Merlanic], a good quanitity of 
> origional
> material, and a few other oddities thrown in.  The result would NOT be
> anything that fits into any of the sub-catagories, but is still Pagan,
> none-the-less.

(In the same sense of light sarcasm and fun):

I'd call you "Literati", perhaps, maybe "illeterai" in my crasser moments (with
apologies to Steve Jackson).  My list of pagan religions was not meant to
be exhaustive.

-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
TEAM STAR Charter Member             | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: thud@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Ted Thibodeau Jr)
Subject: ride from Boston to Starwood needed (fwd)
Organization: MIT Laboratory for Computer Science
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 12:40:29 GMT


** please post this to alt.pagan    Thanks! ***

Help!  My ride to StarWood suddenly canceled at the last minute,
leaving me with no way to get from Boston (where I live) to the
gathering (the western end of New York State).  If anyone is driving
out there in the next day or so, I will gladly pay more than my share
of gas, tolls, et cetera.  I have directions and camping gear, all I
need is the ride.

Wil Howitt
(617)868-6270
howitt@sens.com

-- 
   Ted Thibodeau, Jr    a/k/a    Thud, Fyodor Ilyich Lobachevsky, Zamel
       61 Marion Street       Medford, MA  02155        617-395-9915
** Crash & Burn for Democracy! ** A Pan of Fudge in Every Fridge, and a **
*** Yerazunis for President! **** Net Connection in Every Living Room!! **
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: holzman@fnalo.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Subject: Re: Women, men, scum, and wicca . . .
Organization: FERMILAB
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 22:44:03 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalo.fnal.gov
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1992Jul21.193315.15180@linus.mitre.org>, 
heimberg@pacific.mitre.org (Jeff Heimberger) writes:
> What if there was a National Association for the Advancement of White People?

I hate to break this to you, but this organization does exist.  Unfortunately,
it's head is (was?) David Duke.  (By Ma'at, I am not making this up!)

>  What if there was a Hetero Rights Organization?  
> All of these would be labeled harmful and
> reactionary out-of-hand, regardless of what they actually did.

Such organizations as have called themselves by these names have so far been
reactionary.

-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
TEAM STAR Charter Member             | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
From: tmhoff@oogoody.Corp.Sun.COM (Todd Hoff)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Who cares
Date: 22 Jul 1992 00:33:56 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: tmhoff@oogoody.Corp.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: oogoody.corp.sun.com

>> 10. Elect Bush. I didn't do it.
>> 11. Burn the witches. I didn't do it.
>> 
>> There's a lot more I didn't do, but I'll stop here.

>>>Again I say, so then since it isn't your mess, you have no
>>>responsibility to clean it up.  Wonderful ethics. 

Major leap here, don't fall. For you to determine my
ethical system from one post is laughable. You know zip
about me, certainly not enough to judge me. But I guess
that doesn't matter. 



Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: Who cares
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 20:07:51 GMT

ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy) writes:
: > : > 
: > : your analogy is fucked.  black people are not defensive about racism, as 
: > : they do not practice it.  they defend themselves against racism, a 
: > : completely different thing.
: > 
: > Heh, heh. Right Ailsa. Tell me what would happen if I walked, by myself, into
: > a bar in an inner city slum anywhere in the US. Do you think I could just,
: > walk in, join the people at the bar, order a drink and (when done) walk out?
: > No chance - I would be lucky to get out alive.
: > 
: > This is not "defending against racism" - it is the overt practice of racism.
: > The only difference is, I can understand why it occurs - after all the
: > repression that many minority groups have been subjected to in the past,
: > and are still subjected to (to varying extents) today.
: > 
: > But, just because there may be some justification, that does not make any
: > such practice right.
: > 
: > Bill
: 
: maybe you shou8ld check your attitude then, or actually try it.  i hAVE 
: done that, had no troubloe, definitely left alive.  difference: i LIVE in 
: the slums.  i may be white, but i am still one of the family, as it were.
: 
: i think all this fear of black men is just another face of racism.

Re-read what you wrote above. Now tell me that racism does not exist among
the people living in the slums. You are "one of the family", so you are not
discriminated against. Racism is not only based on skin color.

Bill
From: russell@Apple.COM (Russell Williams)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Who cares
Date: 24 Jul 92 15:46:19 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, CA

Distasteful or extremist behavior by individuals doesn't invalidate
their arguments. Gay bashing doesn't disappear or become OK just
because you don't like Queer Nation. Cutting down the rainforest
doesn't become OK because you think Earth First! is too radical.

Most social injustice is not solved by groups working against
generic social injustice. Injustices are eliminated only when those
being stepped on explicitly and loudly complain about it.

Having the intention not to be sexist is not the same thing as not
being sexist. The preceding claim is not the same as an argument that
men should feel guilty because of their continued sexism. 

I think that homophobia is bad and that we all have a responsibility
to help reduce the quantity of bad things in the world. This is not
the same as an argument that heterosexuals should feel guilty
because of continuing homophobia. It's also not an argument that
people who spend their energy working to prevent rainforest destruction
aren't doing their part,  or that they should take time out to feel 
guilty about homophobia, racism, sexism, etc. Specialization is
necessary, not evil. Assigning, assuming, and arguing over  guilt 
isn't an effective way to reduce the quantity of bad things in the 
world. 

Arguing that there's not a problem diverts energy from addressing
the problem. Attacking those trying to solve the problem diverts
energy from solving the problem. Both of these things make it less
likely that new people will put new energy into solving the problem.
This is not the same thing as saying that those with different views
should be silent.
-- 
Russell Williams
Not speaking for Apple Computer
From: ed_l1@verifone.com
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Chimps not Vegetarians!
Date: 22 Jul 92 17:01:24 -1000
Organization: VeriFone Inc., Honolulu HI

In article <12319@inews.intel.com>, pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey) writes:
> I believe that it was Jane Goodall herself who said if she knew when she
> started what she learned about chimps, she would have never put herself
> in the kind of danger that she did. Our conception of chimps is of that
> cute little vegetarian that rides a bicycle at the zoo, but it turns out
> they are very close to humans, as Jane found out.

Indeed.   Chimps are not vegetarians, they are omnivores, they eat just
about anything, including some meat.  They kill smaller animals and are
known to kill other chimps.

Perhaps someone is confusing them with the mountain gorilla, which is,
as far as we know, a vegetarian.

-- 
 //=====================================================================\\
|| Ed L'Esperance - P.O. Box 4635, Kane`ohe, Hawai`i 96744  U.S.A. Earth ||
|| Anthropologist, Writer, Editor, Earth Native       Ed_L1@VeriFone.Com ||
|| * Opinions Copyright (c) 1992 Ed L'Esperance.  All Rights Reserved. * ||
 \\=====================================================================//
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: aaldrich@geppetto.encore.com (Al Aldrich)
Subject: Re: Who cares
Organization: Encore Computer Corp.
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 12:25:51 GMT

billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:

>ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy) writes:
>: > : > 
>: 
>: maybe you shou8ld check your attitude then, or actually try it.  i hAVE 
>: done that, had no troubloe, definitely left alive.  difference: i LIVE in 
>: the slums.  i may be white, but i am still one of the family, as it were.
								 ^^^^^^^^^^
>: 
>: i think all this fear of black men is just another face of racism.

>Re-read what you wrote above. Now tell me that racism does not exist among
>the people living in the slums. You are "one of the family", so you are not
>discriminated against. Racism is not only based on skin color.
>Bill

you forgot the `as it were'..  

Of course there is racism in the slums just as everywhere else..what she is 
saying is that we should not prevent that from reaching out to our sisters
and brothers of all types and persuasions. Yeah, we may get kicked in the
teeth a time or two, but most often, people will respond positively to someone
from the perceived `outside' who steps across the line and extends a hand
in frienship, unconditionally, regardless of the danger or risk that may be
involved in doing so. The `family' she refers to is a `family' in the sense thatthe people involved `trust' their extended family of the neighborhood. It is
not racism that they experience but fear and anger. Ailsa is not accepted into
this family because of the color of her skin but the set of her heart.

/al



-- 
Al Aldrich 		  | Fax: 797-5926	| `..give peas a chance..'
Ph: 305-797-2335	  |Product Operations	|    (Dinosaurs)
Inet: aaldrich@encore.com |Logistics Mgr.	|
From: heimberg@pacific.mitre.org (Jeff Heimberger)
Subject: Re: Who cares
Organization: The MITRE Corporation
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 16:00:28 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.124858.25296@geppetto.encore.com> aaldrich@geppetto.encore.com (Al Aldrich) writes:
>tmhoff@oogoody.Corp.Sun.COM (Todd Hoff) writes:
>
>I am hearing a lot of defensiveness about the injustice of being one of
>the priveleged and getting blamed for it..so let me play a little
>devil's advocate here..

So let me play Devil's Devil's Advocate here...

>>Here's a list of things I didn't do, don't support, yet still get blamed for 
>>because of my race and gender:
>
>>1. Slavery. I didn't do it.
>>2. Kill the buffalo and break treaties with the indians. I didn't do it.
>
>But what do you do to lift up the Native Americans now?

But what do the Native Americans do to lift me up now?

>>3. Set up the patriarchy. I didn't do it.
>
>But what do you do to promote egalitarianism now?

But what do feminists do to support men's rights now?

>>4. Deny women the vote. I didn't do it.
>>5. Oppress and descriminate against homosexuals. I didn't do it.
>
>But what do you do to support gay rights now?

But what do gay rights activists do to support hetero rights now?

>>6. Rape ot threaten women. I swear I didn't do it.
>
>But what do you do to change men who do?

I don't know anyone who has ever raped or threatened a woman.  When in
a situation that is questionable (like DC at night), I escort the woman
to wherever she's going.  Maybe she's escorting me?

>>There's a lot more I didn't do, but I'll stop here.
>
>I think that Janis said it right the first time..Until men get out and
>PUBLICLY declare that something is wrong and needs to be righted, we
>will continue to have sexist advertising, rape, violence, and domination
>as a norm in our world society. 
>
>It's good that you do't/didn't do all of the above, but NOT doing is as
>good as condoning in practice.

Baloney.  I don't commit murder, and I don't condone it -- do you?
What are *you* doing to PUBLICLY declare murder is wrong, and needs to
be righted?

There are so many causes that no one has the ability to be *absolutely*
Politically Correct.  I am only human.  I make mistakes.  I try to
correct them when I become aware of them.  Any more than that is for
the OmniPC net.gods and net.goddesses, a position for which I surely do
not qualify.

<Donning flame retardant underwear...>

Regards,

Jeff H...
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: a reply to radzy's post
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 22 Jul 92 05:55:08 GMT

radzy it just occurred to me that I responded to your post incorrectly.
You ask what I was doing to promote men's rights and why I was running
down Jeff's "cause."

Unfortunately, I replied too quickly and only realized it on the way
home from dinner in my SO'd car.

Jeff doesn't have a cause, and wasn't promoting one!  All he said was he
didn't personally oppress women so he didn't se why he should do
anything about the oppression, he didn't kill Native Americans or
buffalos, so he tired of being "blamed" for it, he didn't beat up gay
people so why are they yelling all the time, and he didn't lynch so why
can't there be a NAAWP.

He mentioned NOTHING about men's rights or father's rights.  His one and
only cause for this post and the others he's made is the movement
entitled I Didn't Do It, alternately It's Not My Mess So Why Should I
Clean It Up.

Blessings,
Janis
From: ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Who cares
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 12:00:47 EST
Organization: Ailanthus Project

billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:

> ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy) writes:
> : > 
> : > You bet I'm defensive. Are not blacks defensive about racism? Is it PC
> : > to blame people for things they didn't do? I thought the sins of the fath
> : > thing went out 2000 years ago.
> : > 
> : your analogy is fucked.  black people are not defensive about racism, as 
> : they do not practice it.  they defend themselves against racism, a 
> : completely different thing.
> 
> Heh, heh. Right Ailsa. Tell me what would happen if I walked, by myself, into
> a bar in an inner city slum anywhere in the US. Do you think I could just,
> walk in, join the people at the bar, order a drink and (when done) walk out?
> No chance - I would be lucky to get out alive.
> 
> This is not "defending against racism" - it is the overt practice of racism.
> The only difference is, I can understand why it occurs - after all the
> repression that many minority groups have been subjected to in the past,
> and are still subjected to (to varying extents) today.
> 
> But, just because there may be some justification, that does not make any
> such practice right.
> 
> Bill

maybe you shou8ld check your attitude then, or actually try it.  i hAVE 
done that, had no troubloe, definitely left alive.  difference: i LIVE in 
the slums.  i may be white, but i am still one of the family, as it were.

i think all this fear of black men is just another face of racism.

                                            -ailsa

ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com   or   io81409@maine.maine.edu
 
are you on fire         what will replace the rent with the stars above,
from the years,         replace the need with love,
what will you give      replace the anger with the tide,
for your kid fears?     replace the ones, the ones, the ones that you love?
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: Firewalk
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 19:05:33 GMT

donal@brewich.hou.tx.us (Donal) writes:
: pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey) writes:
: 
: > >	There is a quote from somewhere which says: "Any sufficiently
: > >advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic".  And _vice_versa_ of
: > >course ;)
: > 
: > Who said that? I seem to remember an association with the Atomic bomb for
: > some reason. Was it Einstein or Oppenheimer? Don't tell me it was Sagan?
: 
: I am NOT sure, but I think it was either Asimov or Clark.

Nope. Robert Heinlein. I believe it was in "The Notebook of Lazarus Long".

Bill
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: mkkuhner@phylo.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner)
Subject: Re: New group details and comments.
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 00:05:34 GMT

I'm not sure the distaste I'm hearing for moderation is really
deserved.  It's possible to take a very restrained approach to 
moderation, and filter out only completely inappropriate articles
(blank, sent to the wrong newsgroup, included text but no new text,
requests for the FAQ, etc.)  This would still make it a moderated group,
technically, and eligable to be s.r.wicca.  There is no rule saying that
the moderation must be political or ruthless, just that the group must
be moderated.

The moderator wouldn't necessarily be 'some invisible person behind the
scenes', either.  The moderator of s.r.christian often speaks to explain
and defend his decisions, and does, in my opinion, an exemplary job of
it.

Most of the good moderators (my opinion) that I've met reject very few
articles, and mostly for reasons about which there would be little
debate.  (How useful is the fifth answer to a question like "What date
is Starwood?")  Certainly moderation can be used for censorship, but it
doesn't have to be.  And we would choose our own moderator, after all;
it's not like s/he'd be some kind of Usenet appointee.

Just some thoughts.

Storm/Mary K. Kuhner mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu
Newsgroups: alt.pagan