From: sals@corwin.uchicago.edu (red-head fancier)
Subject: Re: [misc.activism.progressive] Clinton Office Requests Comments
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 03:47:14 GMT

In article <1993Jan10.035344.26301@samba.oit.unc.edu>  
bolden@beta.math.unc.edu (Jeffrey Bolden) writes:
> In article <1993Jan9.231931.24551@midway.uchicago.edu>  
sals@caine.uchicago.edu (red-head fancier) writes:
> >
> >> 
> >> 	I'm sorry but I couldn't let this one slip by.  Take a look at who
> >> is forming this contract, the constitution:
> >> 	
> >> 		WE THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES, in Order to FORM a
> >> perfect UNION, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility,  
provide  
> >for
> >> the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the  
> >Blessings
> >> of Liberty to OURSELVES AND OUR POSTERITY, do ordain and establish  
this
> >> Constitution FOR the United States of America.
> >> 
> >> 	At the bottom it signed by the representatives of the people and
> >> later ratified by the states.  If this were a corporate contract  
> >wouldn't
> >> you consider it binding?
> >> 
> >> --JMB
> >
> >No. For starts the representatives were NOT given the power to make the  
> >constitution by anybody other than themselves. 
> 
> 	True, but later the elected state legislatures ratified it.  That
> sounds like the document has power, even if the convention was somewhat
> illegitimate.
For  contract to be binding it must be signed and delivered by EVERYONE  
upon involved in the contract. The constitution was not signed or agreed  
to by everyone alive then.
> 
> >Additionally as I wrote in  
> >my post the constitution is not a binding contract because everyone who  
is  
> >bound by the constitution consented to it. 
> 
> 	This makes no sense, would it be binding if ereryone did not
> consent to it, or if only someone consented to it?  What are you  
arguing?	
> 
My apologies there was a typo I should have said: the constitution is not  
a legally binding contract because everyone who the constitution is  
supposed to bind did NOT consent to it.
> >Many people opposed the  
> >constitution but had it forced upon them. Incidently the convention did  
a  
> >sneaky trick in sending the constitution not to the elected state  
> >legislatures to be ratified, but to special consititutional  
conventions.  
> 
> 	Who, every state (except Rhode Island) agreed off the cuff, and
> since then every state has agreed.  Further, every citisen who is
> naturalized has explicitly agreed to its contents.]

I'm not sure exactly what you're saying but if you're arguing that the  
consitution was agreed on without much debate then you're wrong. The whole  
reason the Federalist Papers were written was that the federalists feared  
that  New York might not ratify. Every state agreeing to the constitution  
does not matter because the individuals bound by the constitution did not  
agree to it. And even if naturalized citizens must agree to the  
constitution all other citizens don't.
> 
> >And the orginal consitution was not signed, signatures were added by  
> >publishers of copies later. 
> 
> 	Irrelevent ratified by the states; though an interesting fact.

Not irrelevent. For a contract to be legally binding it must be signed and  
delivered. The fact that no one signed it makes it legally invalid.
> 
> >Also the US is not a corporation. Even if the  
> >people alive had consented to it they could not have bound their  
posterity  
> >(us) to it. Read my original post carefully and you'll see I addressed  
> >these arguments.  
> 
> 	Finally, the founding fathers agreed that the dead had no right to
> bind the living. They explicitly addressed this with the Amendments
> clause, and the right for the states to pull out (later recinded during
> the civil war).  It still however binds individuals.
> 

 How can the constitution bind if the dead cannot bind the living?
Xref: sparky alt.politics.libertarian:3022 comp.org.eff.talk:8305 alt.amateur-comp:473 soc.culture.usa:9454 alt.activism:20038