HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tamada@cheshire.oxy.edu (Michael K. Tamada)
Subject: Re: Each Team's All-Time Best (was: Best from A to Z)
Organization: Occidental College, Los Angeles, CA 90041 USA.
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 06:03:45 GMT

In article <1992Dec11.164905.17765@jmb2.jmb.com> lewism@jmb2.jmb.com (Mike Lewis) writes:

>Leo James (lej@pdn.paradyne.com) wrote:
>:    team                   player                  runner-up
>:    ----                   ------                  ---------

   [...]

>: Cleveland Cavaliers	Lenny Wilkins		Nate Thurmond
>
>Nate Thurmond had his best years with the Warriors.  

     True.

>Don't recall him playing for Clevelnad at all.   
   
     Cavs fans sure do!  Cleveland acquired him partway through the 75-76
season.  Keep in mind that the Cavs had, along with the Trailblazers, been
the doormats of the NBA during their ENTIRE existence at that point.  But
by 1975 they finally had a semi-decent team.  They added Thurmond to
give themselves more inside strength as well as veteran leadership.
     The Cavaliers, after acquiring Thurmond, went on to win the Central
Division and during the playoffs advanced all the way to the conference
finals, losing to eventual NBA champion Boston.  Cleveland actually 
experienced Cav-mania!  I think they set a single game NBA attendance
record, with over 20,000 fans packing the then-new Richfield Coliseum.
    The next year was Thurmond's last, he apparently was injured, made
a token appearance in the playoffs, and retired (or was cut) after that.
     But thanks to Thurmond, the Cavs actually had some moments of success
and glory, the only ones they would enjoy until Lenny Wilkens and Wayne
Embry would arrive to rescue the team from the clutches of Ted Stepien.
     The Cavaliers have RETIRED Thurmond's number!  That's how much
he meant to them.  
     Granted, this is going overboard in the retired number department.
Thurmond was only their back-up center (though an important one) and
he only played 1 1/2 seasons with them.  It's sort of like Portland
retiring Larry Steele's and Dave Twardzik's numbers, only worse, since
they at least played numerous seasons for Portland.  And they won
a championship too.
     But any Cavs fan with a remote sense of history would sure
remember Nate Thurmond playing for the Cavaliers; he was the missing 
piece in their only really good season (until the past few years).

>Who the hell was Bob Davies?

     One-time MVP, 4-time all-league first team, twice all-league
second team.  The catch is, this was back in the 1940s and 1950s.
He was a 6-1 point guard, apparently a great one for those days.
I doubt he'd be able to keep up with today's players, but as far
as accomplishments go he probably is a legitimiate choice after
Oscar Robertson.  He's in the Hall of Fame and was elected to the
NBA's all-time 25th anniversary team. 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
  |__	       o
  | W			   Mike Tamada
		  |\	   Institutional Research Office
		   \O	   Occidental College
		    |      tamada@oxy.edu
		   /|
		  | |

Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
From: tron@tc.fluke.COM (Peter Barbee)
Subject: Re: Jimmy Jackson update
Keywords: Jimmy Jackson
Organization: John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc., Everett, WA
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 23:40:12 GMT

>As for Jimmy Jackson, nobody is forcing him to miss out on the first
>year of his career or millions of dollars.  In fact, the yearly dollar
>amount of the offered contract is as good as other draftees like
>Laettner and Mourning.  The difference is that Carter is willing to
>guarantee only $10.8 million for 4 years while the other guys are being
>guaranteed $20+ over 6 years.  Since these contracts are heavily
>back-loaded, i.e. most of the big money comes in the last years of
>the contract, for those 1st 4 years, Jackson would make approximately
>as much as those other guys.  Theoretically, he stands to make even more

I'm going to side on the "I'm not sorry for JJ" side of this one.  I
don't buy the "draft is slavery" argument.  The draft is, IMHO, a
necessary evil that keeps the NBA (or any pro league) competitive and
thus entertaining and thus profitable and thus can afford to pay huge
salaries.  It's a tradeoff yes but one that works for the players.

How can JJ ever recoup the approx. 2 million dollar loss of not signing
this year?  And at this point in the season he isn't even worth as much 
as other top 5 picks who are already playing.  In 4 years time he is
either going to be able to sign for more money (salary inflation plus
he might become a star) or he will sign a lower contract because he 
hasn't developed as a player.  In either scenario he gets what he
deserves.

The NBA _isn't_ a free market in that sense.  It is a free market if you
compare the league to the NFL, or to Hollywood movies but it isn't in
the sense that individual franchises are not out there to beat each other
in the business end of things (ie. 7-11 would just as soon AM/PM went out
of business but the Mavericks have a vested interest in keeping the
Rockets viable).

Within franchises it is acceptable, in fact standard, to collude on some
things.  In fact most franchises wouldn't allow things like Al Davis
moving the Raiders against the franchiser's wishes.  Some want to argue
that there is no franchiser in the NBA but I maintain there is - the sum
of the individual owners.

Peter B
From: rsmith@strobe.ATC.Olivetti.Com (Russ Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: Jimmy Jackson update
Keywords: Jimmy Jackson
Date: 16 Dec 92 17:10:54 GMT
Organization: Olivetti ATC; Cupertino CA, USA

In article <1992Dec16.155041.23764@uvmark.uucp> davem@uvmark.uucp (Dave Meeks) writes:
>Couple of questions.  Anyone know what the last offer JJ had was?? And, how
>it compares to the player above and below him?  I was under the assumption it
>was between the two.  

It was comparable for the first 4 years, yes, but JJ wants 6. If you look
at Mourning and Laettner, they have heavyily backloaded their contract in
the last 2 years. This is why JJ wants a 6 year deal, the first 4 are close
to the guys in front of him, but the average over the whole contract is
much less because they won't give him the last 2 years.Unless they give him
only 4 years but up the salary so its more in line with Mourning and Laettner,
they are offering him too little. They say money is not the concern, its
the extra 2 years, JJ and his agent say the same thing, but they are really
arguing over the extra 2 years because of the money.

JJ and his agent are looking at average yearly salary, the Mavs are looking
at their 4 years versus other players first 4 years.

If they won't give him the 2 extra years he wants, I think he has a perfect
right to expect them to up the average salary to keep it in line with other
guys.

Sure he could play 4 years and then sign a contract elsewhere and maybe
get more in those 2 years than he might get now, he could also blow out
his knee during the first 4 years and get nothing. He's not asking for Shaq's
deal, he just wants them to make a comparable offer., 

>
>And JJ is screwing with Dallas, by holding out on what seems to be a fair 
>offer.  My opinion is screw him.  He is not going to help Dallas at this 
>point, so I say trade him for someone who is willing to play...

This is not a John Elway or Danny Ferry trying to maneuver around the draft.
He has negotiated with them for months without publicly demanding a trade.
His agent is a jerk, without question, by past actions, but expecting him
to take a lower much lower average salary and 2 years less because they want
to establish a precedent is unreasonable.

I wish they could trade him somewhere, but with the salary cap it will be
tough.

If the Mavs were intent on setting their own course for contracts to rookies,
they should have asked JJ prior to picking him, is 4 years going to be a
problem.




Russ Smith
*******************************************************************************
"Chapeau means hat, oeuf means egg, its as if those French have a different 
word for everything!" 
                                        Steve Martin
********************************************************************************



Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
From: mfleming@mta.ca (Michael Fleming)
Subject: TSN Schedule?
Reply-To: mfleming@mta.ca
Organization: Mount Allison U, Sackville, N.B. Canada 
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 17:28:12 GMT

Hi.  Are there any Canadian fans out there who have The Sports Network's
NBA schedule for this season?  If anyone has this, could they post it
or e-mail it to me?  Thanks!!

					Mike Fleming
					mfleming@mta.ca
From: lpc4@po.CWRU.Edu (Lawrence P. Colucci)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: Jimmy : outta  DALLAS
Date: 14 Dec 92 00:52:07 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


JJ #1 draft pick...?  As much as I like him and can see the talent,
suppose the 2nd worst team (meaning the one behind Dallas) wins the
lottery, and is staring at JJ as the first pick.  Would you risk
trying to sign a player who hasn't played competetively for over a 
year and has become a manager's nightmare in the negotiating room, 
or a top Junior/Senior who has proven themself over the past season?
I think it's a tough call with a player of Jimmy's caliber, and
will depend on who emerges as the top prospects in the draft.  Would
that be funny if Funderburke stepped up to his ability level, entered
the draft and the two were taken one after the other?  But the
frontrunners right now seem to be Hurley, Mashburn, and Webber.
From: nates@ll.mit.edu ( Nate Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: All-time team greats
Date: 15 Dec 92 17:57:55 GMT
Organization: MIT Lincoln Laboratory

In article <Bz9Ltv.982@news.cso.uiuc.edu> jdt29225@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Jazzy J ) writes:
>
>	A better judge of all-time greats is perhaps to form an all-time
>	team for a particular club.
>	Our first team -- of course -- the Boston Celtics.
>	Jazzy J

my first question is: do we get these players in their prime or do we get
them the way they played for boston?  i think it should be based on what
they did at boston, so we dont consider pete maravich & bob mcadoo types.
another toughie: bill walton plays in more games in one year for the C's
than any other year in his lost career, but can he be counted?  lets
further stipulate 200 games for the team.  (rats.  walton is out.)

   starters:
                C - Bill Russell
               PF - Kevin McHale
               SF - Larry Bird
               SG - John Havlicek
               PG - Nate Archibald

               C     PF     SF    SG/OG   PG
 Parish        x
 Russell       x      x
 Cowens        x      x
 McHale        x      x
 Silas                x
 Maxwell              x      x
 Bird                 x      x      x
 Havlicek                    x      x
 K.C.Jones                          x
 DJohnson                           x      x
 Ainge                              x      x
 Archibald                                 x
 Cousy                                     x

i made some tough cuts to get down to 13, but who do i cut to get
down to 12 players?  yunno...despite his legendary passing, maybe
a career .369 feild goal shooter just cant make the squad...so
i'll probably catch hell for, but i guess Cousy is cut!  for passing
i still have archibald, bird & havlicek.  DJ & ainge aint bad either,
although DJ is for defense (with KC and Silas and Russell), while
Danny Boy is another 3-pt weapon.  maxwell & cowens also were good
passers, and russell wasnt as bad as mchale.  i get the mchale that
was known for his defense here along with all the worm moves.  robert
is the only 7-footer to make the squad.

guys i have big reservations about leaving off the team are:  cousy,
tom sanders (you dont get your name hoisted for scoring 9.6 ppg),
tom heinsoln, bill sharman, sam jones, frank ramsey, jo jo white,
don chaney, don nelson, oh - there are so many....:-)

- nate
From: davidy@sumax.seattleu.edu (Stimpson J. Cat)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: 76ers need BIG-time help!!!!!!!!
Date: 20 Dec 1992 02:59:51 -0800
Organization: Seattle University
NNTP-Posting-Host: sumax.seattleu.edu

In article <1992Dec20.003509.24350@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> u_nique@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Jerray Wei) writes:
>In article <1992Dec18.225502.1@wharton.upenn.edu> reille85@wharton.upenn.edu writes:
>>HERE'S A TRADE....
>>
>>The Philadelphia 76ers badly need many, many, many things.  They happen to have
>>an overabundance of "2" guards (Hawkins, Hornacek, Dawkins)   So, here goes.
>>How about...
>>	Jeff Hornacek, Armon Gilliam, and Johnny Dawkins to Cleveland for
>>Mark Price, "Hot Rod" Williams, and a #1 draft pick.
>>
>>     or Hornacek, Gilliam, and Dawkins to Seattle for Payton and McKey.
>>
>>THE 76ers need help BADLY!!!!
>
>Both of these trades are pretty unrealistic.  Hornacek and Price could be
>called even (neither team would benefit much here, Horny can play point
>pretty well), but the Cavs would be foolish to trade their power forward of
>the future (Nance is old) in Williams for oft traded Armon Gilliam.  As
>for the Seattle trade...Gary Payton sucks.  Philly needs Hornacek if you
>haven't noticed, he's definitely the MVP so far.  He's a better point guard
>and millions of times better scorer than Payton.
>


	I disagree strongly with your dismissal of Gary Payton. Here are his
statistics for this season:

In 20 games, Payton is:

	FG: 54%		FT%  85%	PPG: 14.9	ASTpG: 5.3

	STL: 47		TO:  42		ASTot: 106	RpG: 3.0


The fact is, Gary Payton as of 12-18-92, led the NBA's starting guards in
FG%. Amazing but true.  He has shot better than 50% in 14 of 20 games so far.
He has led Seattle in scoring 6 games, and the Sonics are 5-1 in those games.
Subjectively, he now hits the outside shot regularly and finshes his drives
very well. The main criticism on Payton has been his offense, and it has
come around. 

	I didn't realize Jeff Hornacek was passing the ball as well as he
has (6.7 assists per game in 17 games) and he is the better guard period, but
I still prefer Payton if what you want is a true point guard. Payton handles
the ball better, plays much better defense, both of which are reflected in 
their respective turnover/steal ratios. Well anyway, regardless of what you
think of the repective merits of Payton and Hornacek, I feel it is shortsighted
indeed to dismiss the Sonic point guard with the phrase "Payton sucks."



					David L. Yee
				email to:davidy@suamx.seattleu.edu

Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
From: raczka@HQ.Ileaf.COM (christopher raczka)
Subject: Toni Kukoc interview in Jan 93 'GQ'
Reply-To: raczka@HQ.Ileaf.COM (christopher raczka)
Organization: Interleaf, Inc.
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 92 01:07:18 GMT

The January 1993 edition of 'GQ' Magazine features an interview/story
on Toni Kukoc

The article titled; "The Toni Kukoc Wars" by Peter Richmond
also includes past statements by Michael Jordan on Kukoc, to wit,
"He will fit in".

Phil Jackson is quoted as saying; "Toni has every right to expect
a good career in the NBA, and everyone has to move over and allow
him to realize that potential. There'll have to be allowances made."

WAIT ... it gets better (-:

Jerry Krause is also quoted! When asked about Kukoc ...
"Personally?, I want to win one without Michael Jordan.
I want to win a Championship without Michael."

Knowing that many of the NBA players read 'GQ', this story will no
doubt raise alot of eyebrows

But, Mr Richmond did do his homework and went to talk also with
Toni Kukoc's current employer ... Gilberto Benetton, and Mr Benetton
doesn't appear to be willing to let Kukoc out of his SIX year
(guaranteed) contract

good reading, even for the fashion imparied

chris
-- 
"Any comments, opinions, and views expressed here (on Usenet) are MINE
and are in no way shared nor endorsed by my employer."
                        christopher raczka
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
From: krust@uxh.cso.uiuc.edu (Kelly Rust)
Subject: miscellanea...
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 04:24:08 GMT

A few observations as we've rounded the first turn.

SHAQ ATTACK (and the Big Three)...last season my Statistical 
Plaything (tm) spit out Robinson, ...big jump, Olajuwon,
Daugherty; now it says Robinson, Olajuwon, ...pretty big jump,
O'Neal, Daugherty.  Has he clinched ROY yet? I guess Gugliotta
for second thus far (ahead of Laettner and Mourning) but
I wouldn't put any money on it...

BEST BACKCOURT?  I haven't seen them play, but the production
from Mark Jackson and Ron Harper has been outstanding (36ppg,
12rpg,14apg,4.5spg)...compared with, say, Jordan/Armstrong (45ppg,
9rpg,10apg,2.5spg) I'd say it's a toss-up.  Maybe one of our
resident Clipper mavens could offer an opinion...

BULLS WOES...are traceable to a slip by Grant (from 14ppg w/58%fg
and 74%ft to 11ppg-49%-50%) and Pippen (21ppg-51%-76% to 19ppg-47%-
65%).  They still beat anyone in a 5 or 7 game series...

THE LEGEND LIVES ON...as Detlef Schrempf continues his role as a poor
man's Larry Bird (21ppg,8.5rpg,5apg)...

WHAT IS THAT DISGUSTING GREEN?  Don't want to hurt that Celtic Pride,
but this is not a good team.  Xavier McDaniel?  Kevin Gamble is a 
player?  Sherman Douglas is the antithesis of Celtic Tradition - he's
unbearable to watch...Joe Kleine?  Is Reggie Lewis an All-Star?  Let's
see...Jordan and Thomas will get elected, take Miller and Price,
Dumars, Hornacek, ...yeah, if they take SEVEN guards...

DRUM ROLL, PLEASE...as we determine the worthy contenders for Chris
Jackson's title as the Worst Player to get Significant Minutes...early
favorites: Doug Smith (44%fg,5rbd,3to,5pf in 26min/g) and Terry Mills
(who packs 43%fg,4rbd,2to,4pf into his 19min/g)...(dis)Honorable
Mention - Stanley Roberts...

WHAT'S IN A NAME?  Notice that Lloyd Daniels has taken the spot in
my NBA database (between Dell Curry and Brad Daugherty) formerly
held by Quintin Dailey...I kinda like watching Lloyd play, I hope he
sticks around.
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
From: lewism@jmb2.jmb.com (Mike Lewis)
Subject: Re: Each Team's All-Time Best (was: Best from A to Z)
Organization: JMB Realty Corporation
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 16:49:05 GMT

Leo James (lej@pdn.paradyne.com) wrote:
:    team                   player                  runner-up
:    ----                   ------                  ---------
: Atlantic:
: 
: New York Knicks		Willis Reed		Patrick Ewing

Walt Frazier second, please.  Patrick hasn't won anything yet.

: New Jersey Nets		Julius Erving		D. Petrovich

I'd put Larry Kenon second.  Drazen just got there.  And, besides, Derrick
Coleman is better.

: Orlando Magic		Shaquille O'Neal	Scott Skiles

Much as I like Skiles, Nick Anderson is better.

: Boston Celtics		Bill Russell		Larry Bird

I'd pick Bird, then John Havlicek.  Bill Russell was OK, though, if a little
overrated ;-)

: Washington Bullets	Gus Johnson		Elvin Hayes

Wes Unseld first, perhaps followed by one of Elvin Hayes, Phil Chenier, or
Mike Riordan.

: Phildelphia 76'ers	Julius Erving		Dolph Schayes

Wilt Chamberlain (the greatest player in the history of basketball), followed
by Billy Cunningham.  Could make a case for Maurice Cheeks or Hal Greer, too.

: Chicago Bulls		Michael Jordan		Norm Van Lear

Bob Love in second.

: Cleveland Cavaliers	Lenny Wilkins		Nate Thurmond

Nate Thurmond had his best years with the Warriors.  Don't recall him playing
for Clevelnad at all.  Roy Hinson had some good years here, good enough to get
traded for Brad Daugherty.

: Detroit Pistons		Bob Lanier		Dave Bing

Geez, what happened to Isiah Thomas?

: Milwaukee Bucks		Kareem Abdul Jabbar	Oscar Robertson

Sid Moncrief or Marques Johnson instead of Oscar.  This was the twilight of a
great career.

: Atlanta Hawks		Bob Pettite		Pete Maravich

I'd probably take Dominique over Pistol.  Lou Hudson might get some
consideration, as well.

: Indiana Pacers		George McGinnis		Reggie Miller

Let's see.  I'd take Mel Daniels, Roger Brown, Billy Knight, or Fred Lewis over
Miller.  Heck, I might even take Chuck Person.

: Utah Jazz		Pete Maravich		Karl Malone	

Karl Malone first.  Perhaps Adrian Dantley second?

: Dallas Mavericks	Kiki Vandewegh		Brad Davis

Rolando Blackman followed by Mark Aguirre.

: Los Angeles Lakers	Jerry West		Elgin Baylor

Magic Johnson followed by Kareem.

: Sacremento Kings	Oscar Robertson		Bob Davies

Who the hell was Bob Davies?
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
From: tron@tc.fluke.COM (Peter Barbee)
Subject: Re: Best from A to Z
Organization: John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc., Everett, WA
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 21:14:37 GMT

>>I'm with Russ on this one. I saw Barry in his prime a fair amount. He
>>was a terrific player. He did many of the same things Bird did, but
>>without a supporting cast anywhere near as good. Bird was a better
>>rebounder, but remember that Barry was (and is) only about 6'5".
>>Barry ran much better and was quicker than Bird. I seem to recall
>>that he was a somewhat better defender than Bird.

I'm going to vote on the "Barry" side of this argument.  I don't think
Barry is overall as good as Bird but that's because of intangibles -
somehow Rick was such a jerk that his teamates weren't able to forgive
him for it.  As I understand it Bird is a jerk too but enough less of
one that he was still effective as a team leader.

But Barry did do almost all the same things as Bird.  Absolutely
unbelievable ability to shoot the ball, great court sense, fantastic 
ability to improvise to suit the moment.  Both players were good
team defenders (because of their court sense) and less than great
one on one defenders.

I would choose Bird over Barry if I had to choose between them but
I think it's fair to call Barry one of the all time greats (even if
he isn't popularly accorded that honor).

Peter B
From: alexman@hardy.u.washington.edu (Alexander Stroup)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Listening to the blazers in Seattle
Date: 11 Dec 92 18:24:03 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Dec11.182403.19219
Reply-To: alexman@u.washington.edu
Distribution: pnw
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

Does anybody out there know how I might listen to the Blazers play up here in the Seattle-Bellingham area?   Thanks in advance.

Please respond directly to me at "alexman@u.washingtong.edu" or "n9244467@henson.cc.wwu.edu".
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
From: hira@cme.nist.gov (Ron Hira)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: King Rex
Date: 15 Dec 92 17:52:47 GMT
Reply-To: hira@cme.nist.gov
Organization: National Institute of Standards and Technology

In article <BzAJvp.111@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, jdt29225@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Jazzy J ) writes:
|> From: jdt29225@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Jazzy J )
|> Subject: Re: King Rex
|> Date: 15 Dec 92 08:06:59 GMT
|> 
|> rbd@flash.ece.uc.edu (Bobby Davis) writes:
|> >The great thing about Chapman is that he debunks two redneck myths:
|> 
|> >	(1) Blacks can jump higher than whites...
|> >	(2) but whites play smarter ball.
|> 
|> >Just watch Rex's shot "selection" some time and you'll see what I mean.
|> 
|> 	Hey... he is improving.  If there's one thing nobody knows, it's
|> 	what Chapman shot his final year at Kentucky.  With a bad shot
|> 	selection and everything else, he shot over 50% from the field.
|> 	And that's including a low 40% average on 3's.

I watched the Bullets play the Jazz the other night, and Chapman made
some pretty unbelievable shots. In fact it seemed like the only 
shots he made were when someone was in his face. The wide open shots 
were bricks. Is Rex a streaky shooter, Jazzy? He had some good moves
to the hole. 

BTW, he finished with 32 on 14-20(?) shooting. He took an unwelcome
3 ptr at the end of the 1st half though. He's been a pressing a little
to get back in the starting lineup, which probably won't be long (after
all he does make a ton of moola).

Ron