HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: markk@pongo.West.Sun.COM (Mark Allen Kampe)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: French Grips
Date: 11 Dec 1992 22:15:59 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems
Distribution: world
Reply-To: markk@pongo.West.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: pongo.west.sun.com

In article 1gb0seINNste@iskut.ucs.ubc.ca, morgan@sitka.triumf.ca (Morgan Burke) writes:
>You acknowledge that a pistol grip would give a fencer an advantage in 
>winning fencing tournaments?  Do you not think this advantage would 
>translate to a real-world duel?  Would duellists of 200 years ago have 
>used pistol grips if they had the technology?  If not, why not?  If so, 
>then what's the problem?  Surely you know that technology progresses and 
>sword technology is no exception.  If you define as "real" only those 
>swords that existed prior to c.1875, then you are an enthusiast of military
>nostalgia, not swords.

It seems to me that most of the advantages of the pistol grip are only
applicable to modern fencing with a light weapon.  A rapier weighs at
least four times as much as a foil, and the modern beat and disengage
maneuvers are probably well beyond the strength of most people, and
perhaps even the keneisological limits of human wrist and fore-arm tendons.

The modern pistol grip is not a "superior grip for swords" or even necessarily
a "superior grip for point weapons".  It is a superior grip for light point
weapons used in a particular style.  If a differently shaped grip would have
given swordsmen considerable advantage, you can be sure that the romans 
would have found it.  If anyone had actually used light weapons like foils
in warfare, you can be sure that effective grips and techniques would have
been developed quickly.  Even in 1500 BC, military innovations spread very
quickly.  

All of my experience with combat between foils and heavier weapons suggest
that the foil fencer is at a great disadvantage (independently of the respective
skills of the fencers).  It is tempting to believe that the lighter weapon
would give a great advantage - but it is a purely offensive weapon.  There
are no effective parrys for a foil fencer to use against a multi-pound
weapon impelled by full strength.

In summary, I tend to agree with the original poster.  The pistol grip
gives a considerable advantage to a fencer.  It probably would not give
much advantage to a sword fighter.
                                  
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr)
Subject: Re: Left vs Right Handness
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 22:13:36 GMT
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta

In article <1992Dec11.021325.29039@rtsg.mot.com> svoboda@rtsg.mot.com (David Svoboda) writes:
>In article <1992Dec7.160951.4276@progress.com> schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei) writes:
>|
>|Since we have no rules about changing hands in the middle of a bout, I
>|will occasionally enter a bout with my blade in one hand, and just before
>|the bout begins, swap to the other hand.  Or, after the first contact of
>|blades, retreat and switch.  Opponents seem to find it very disconcerting...
>|(Yes, yes, people often quote the Princess Bride to me at times like
>
>:-)  A club I was in once (Hi Sarah!) would get together and watch 
>the Princess Bride at a member's house.  Funny, that between-the-legs
>parry seemed to get slo-mo'ed over and over again... :-)
>
>Anyway, what I wanted to ask is:  what kind of weapons do you SCA folks
>use, that you can just switch hands?  Do I understand that you are using
>regular fencing weapons?  The only symmetrical grip that I know of is
>the Italian, and I'm the only person I've ever met that likes that. :-)
>Besides, even with an Italian, the blade and tang get bent a certain
>way that makes them rather one-handed.

I don't fence a great deal, but I prefer the Italian grip as
well.

It's not as efficent, of course, but it feels to me like a
weapon, rather than a toy.

But then, to me, fencing is a martial art, and not a sport.

The bend in the blade and tang is of course annoying, but
you learn to compensate;-)

Charles
.
-- 
Within the span of the last few weeks I have heard elements of
separate threads which, in that they have been conjoined in time,
struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing
gourd. --Unknown net.person
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: Left vs Right Handness
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 21:34:06 GMT

Jeff Berry writes:
  Well, the Urban Myth (or SCA Myth) that I heard was that Tivar Moondragon
  had a mask collapsed by a pistol-gripped blade, and that was the cause of the
  "safety" clause in the prohibition.

  For non-SCA folk, Master Tivar is the SCA-wide Marshallate Deputy in Charge
  of Period Fencing.

That might explain the situation in your neck of the woods, but that
wouldn't explain the reasoning in the East.  The SCA does not yet have
a national set of rules for fencing, you know.

Maybe Tivar should but a better grade of mask, instead?  (1/2 a :-)

	schuldy (Tibor in the SCA)
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
[I'm just showin' you my opinions: this ain't a gift]
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: simutis@Ingres.COM (John Simutis)
Subject: Re: fencing or fighting?
Keywords: keep it as it is...
Reply-To: simutis@Ingres.COM (John Simutis)
Organization: Ingres Division, ASK Computer Systems.
Date: 15 Dec 92 21:03:14 GMT

I like the group as it is.

My children fence - that's why I read here.  (I don't fence, I pay ;-) ,
but the notes on cleaning and equipment are important to me, and I
take home the odd post for my 12-year-old to read.)

I practice karate and participate in rec.martial-arts; I lurk on
rec.org.sca (no time to join, I discover. Drat.) and I'm interested
in the weapons-aspect of swords and the emerging martial-art of 
SCA fencing and heavy weapons.  The art and weapons of SCA are seldom
treated in detail in that group, and the charter for this one explicitly
includes SCA, so I think it does belong here.


John
From: mece25r@rosie.uh.edu (Palit, Suman)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: Computer games?
Date: 11 Dec 1992 16:01 CST
Organization: University of Houston
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: rosie.uh.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <1992Dec11.174032.13922@hou.amoco.com>, zklf0b@gs144.hou.amoco.com (Fergason) writes...
> 
>Not quite sure what you want, but the old Epyx game Summer Games II had
>a fencing part.   It was pretty neat.  Pirates from Microprose also
>has a sword play part, and it is a pretty neat game also.
>Kelly

There's a game on the Apple called Swashbuckler, where you fence pirates,
You can advance, retreat, lunge and parry(only one kind, though..:-( 

i think you can also jump at him....haven't played it in quite a while

Suman

Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: scasterg@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Stuart M Castergine)
Subject: Re: Cleaning the uncleanable:
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 06:02:27 GMT

In article <1gberfINN3lq@smurf.sti.com> alaric@sti.com (Alaric Tekiahyn) writes:
>For the gloves, my recommended technique is:
>	(1)	Put the gloves on.
>	(2)	Wearing the gloves, wash your hands with saddle soap.
>		(Use warm water, but NOT hot.)
>	(3)	Keep the gloves on until they're completely dry.

I don't know about anybody else, but as long as I am wearing the
glvoe, it will *never* be completely dry. I sweat too much. I always
bring two or three gloves to a competition, because after two rough
pools, a glove is soaked through and starts to get slippery (I can
judge how well I'm doing by how many gloves I go through in a
tournament!)

My hands sweat so much that I simply don't make much effort to save my
gloves. I never buy the top-priced gloves, because no matter how good
they are I'm guaranteed to destroy them.

Same thing with lames. I have one that has lasted me quite a while now
-- the rinsing in water trick helps. And I also unfasten the neck of
my lame between every bout, to get it away from my neck. The neck is
where mine always go bad.

And as long as I'm talking about sweat.... :-)

Because of my profuse and corrosive perspiration, I seem to have a lot
more trouble with blade corrosion than some other people. Oh, how I
envied my teammate, Csaga Hovanyi, back at Ohio State. Her blades were
always so shiny and bright! I swear her sweat was less corrosive than
mine.

Anybody have any suggestions for keeping blades from rusting? I wipe
mine down, but I am loath to oil them, because I am afraid of what the
oil will do to the glue on the wire -- I have enough problems with
wires lifting out as it is. I am also worried that oil will get all
over my nice fencing whites or will get in and gum up my tip.

I tried acid-bluing on a couple blades, like you would do wiht a gun
barrel, just as a lark. But the additional corrision resistance was
minimal, and I have this vague impression that it made those two
blades more brittle. (I, too, have noticed that blades, both maraging
and non, seem to break more often these days. I had one blade that
lasted me three varsity seasons at Ohio State before breaking. Now I
feel lucky if a blade makes it through a whole year -- and I don't
fence with anywhere near the frequency that I did then.




-- 
scasterg@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu -- Stuart M. Castergine
Fiver: "Oh, Hazel, look! The field! It's covered with blood!"
Hazel: "Don't be silly, it's only the light of the sunset." -- Watership Down
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: nexus@ylum.cgd.ucar.edu (Jeff Berry)
Subject: Re: Left vs Right Handness
Organization: Climate and Global Dynamics Division/NCAR, Boulder, CO
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 22:25:02 GMT

In article <1992Dec15.213406.22804@progress.com> schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei) writes:
>That might explain the situation in your neck of the woods, but that
>wouldn't explain the reasoning in the East.  The SCA does not yet have
>a national set of rules for fencing, you know.

Does to!  Does to!  Take  a look at any recent  Marshal's Handbook
(available at finer SCA Stock Clerks everywhere) and you will find
a section on minimum armor/weapon standards throughout the SCA.

>Maybe Tivar should but a better grade of mask, instead?  (1/2 a :-)
>	schuldy (Tibor in the SCA)


Well, if the story is true, then he most certainly should....



badger                                      Don Alexandre Lerot d'Avigne
Jeff Berry                                  Seneschal of Caer Galen, Outlands
               nexus@ncar.ucar.edu
NCAR doesn't tell me what to think, and I return the favor.
"You're a notch and I'm a legend"-------Alice Cooper
"I'm a revolution romancer"----Hawkwind
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: kkessler@triton.unm.edu (Whiskeyjack)
Subject: Re: parries 9 and 10
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 03:26:28 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

In article <BywGvw.8EM@ucunix.san.uc.edu> kreinddm@ucunix.san.uc.edu (David M Kreindler) writes:
>
>Parry 9: hand + guard behind the head, blade directed downwards, to
>prevent a cut to the back.
>
>Parry 10: like a parry prime, but with the blade extended further
>outwards - useful for protecting your horse's head.  (Sabre *was*,
>after all, a cavalry weapon. 8-)  )
>
>(My source on this was of questionable reliability.  Comments, anyone?)

I have seen 10 sabre parries demonstrated by Wes Glon, women's coach at
Penn State.  9 looked just like what you've got but I do not remember
ten at all - only that it existed.  He also told a story that the numbers
1 through 10 on the parries came from a sort of fencing 'kata'.  If you
were riding down the road and were suddenly attacked by brigands the
parries, in that order, were responses to enemy attacks.   

(That didn't mean that parrying 1 2 3 4 .... would be a good defense - just
that they were the appropriate response in the story.)

=============================================================================
kkessler@triton.unm.edu
If anyone wants to give mounted sabre a try, I'm in.

Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: svoboda@rtsg.mot.com (David Svoboda)
Subject: Re: The "Yahoo" factor (was Re: French Grips)
Organization: Motorola Inc., Cellular Infrastructure Group
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 00:00:14 GMT

In article <1992Dec17.201013.7201@rtsg.mot.com> svoboda@rtsg.mot.com (David Svoboda) writes:
|
|A foil is a peice of safety equipment, just like a hockey stick 
|is.  

Er, make that "sports equipment".  Brain cramp.

		Dave Svoboda
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: comptec92024@camins.camosun.bc.ca
Subject: Re: Broadsword fencing 
Organization: Camosun College
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 00:30:39 GMT


> 
> YES!!!  YES!!!  YES!!!  YES!!!
> 
> Exactly my objection to SCA fighting.  That, and that SCA tournament
> combat in particular has become so formalized that it hardly bears any
> relation to the real world.  The classic SCA tourney bout:  Two armored
> fighters shuffling around each other in a circle, taking turns to slam
> at each other's shields.  Things don't get interesting until someone
> who actually *knows what he's doing* (or she) enters the eric.
> 

> 
> Of course, this kind of stuff looks great on stage, but if you're
> doing it for real, you try to *deflect* the other blade at an angle,
> not just stop it cold.  You try to avoid square-on edge-to-edge
> impacts whenever possible - that's how blades get broken.  In the
> perfect broadsword parry, your opponent's edge hits your flat at a
> shallow angle and slides off along your blade with most of its
> momentum intact, hopefully swinging off into the distance and
> leaving you a nice opening for a counterstrike.  If you want to
> see this done perfectly, watch a Japanese iai-do master.
> 
> 
> -- 
>       "Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom."  --  Thomas Jefferson
>     ......................................................................
>     Phil Stracchino : phils@sti.com : alaric@sti.com : The Renaissance Man
===============================================================================

Yes, this is a valid and is real sweet if you can pull it off. An other
technique  that works is a slap par that you can see in Arnise. In this
technique you attack your opponents weapon with a cross block, that is your
left hand attacking his left, the action of your weapon is kind of a slideing
slap that put some tangental energy into his weapon redirecting in away from
your body. You then attack his extended arm with your other arm or weapon to
both control and hit. Then work a few more hits in. In my experance this should
be done early in his attack before he has generated any real energy.

I am curious, would you please discribe what you mean by "knows what he's
doing". I am interested in people obsevations of something that I do.

Mackenzie Cosens.
From: alaric@sti.com (Alaric Tekiahyn)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: Broadsword fencing - StageFighting
Date: 12 Dec 1992 00:53:30 GMT
Organization: Software Transformation, Inc.
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: smurf.sti.com

In article <1992Dec9.162607.18578@lmt.mn.org>, ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson) writes:
] [Text of horror story deleted]
] 
] The director was
] outraged.  The assistant fight director was outraged.  We considered
] not doing the show, we considered postponing the show, we considered
] hanging the set designer by his ears from the fly-space and
] using him as a practice dummy.


You have my sympathies.  I understand entirely, particularly after
doing a quarter as an archery teaching assistant and finding that we'd
gotten moved... to a gym, with indoor target 'backstops' that would
sometimes just barely manage to catch a shaft off my bow short of the
fletchings, *IF* the backstop was having a good day.  (Different, but
related, experience.)


-- 
      "Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom."  --  Thomas Jefferson
    ......................................................................
    Phil Stracchino : phils@sti.com : alaric@sti.com : The Renaissance Man
      PGP 2.0 - Freeware public-key data encryption.  Get it and use it!
           Finger alaric@sti.com for PGP 2.0 info and my public key
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: penfold@rock.concert.net (Patricia A White -- Oxford University Press -- MIS)
Subject: Re: A few questions and observations
Organization: CONCERT-CONNECT -- Public Access UNIX
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 14:15:55 GMT

In article <1go68eINNla7@smurf.sti.com> alaric@sti.com (Alaric Tekiahyn) writes:
>...
>Now your comments lead me to strongly doubt you'd deny that the modern
>fencing salle is an artificial environment.  It is, as you say, a sport.
>It is bound by strict rules, both for reasons of safety and for reasons
>of making it possible to score it, and thus determine who has won a bout
>without the necessity to draw blood.  These are factors which are not
>affected in the least by whether the participants choose to make believe
>they are the Three Musketeers.
>....

"What?  Have you lost all sense of reality?"
"This isn't reality; this is fantasy!"
                       --STII


:-)
Sorry.  
Couldn't resist.

-Patricia
 penfold@rock.concert.net
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Those who know that they are profound strive for clarity.  Those who would
like to seem profound to the crowd strive for obscurity."  --Nietzsche
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: ferret@metaphor.engin.umich.edu (kenneth r lipka)
Subject: Epee/Foil Flamewar
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 92 15:16:32 EST
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor
Originator: ferret@metaphor.engin.umich.edu


In article <13918@ecs.soton.ac.uk>, ajl@ecs.soton.ac.uk (Lewis AJ) writes:
> In <1992Dec3.103439.24287@dutrun2.tudelft.nl> edwin@dutlru2.tudelft.nl
> (Edwin Wisse) writes:
> 
> >(When *will* the "epee/foil/sabre is better/nicer than epee/foil/sabre"
> >flamewar start? :-)
> 
> OK you're on - epee is a weapon for failed foilists.
> 
> I've always said that, and now that epee is my favourite weapon, I
> know its true. (ok, ok, so I'm a failure, I admit it...)
> 
> Andy

	Actually, the epee is for people who believe that is is impolite to point. :)  I mean, how practicle is it to fight someone with an over-grown knitting needle?  All you can do is stick them like a pin-cushion; and unless you know your anatomy, you won't get a killing/crippling blow very often.  Now,
the epee, with an edge (as well as a point) allows for those crippling blows (hamstringing, head cut for the blood in the eyes, etc).   You won't find those
moves effective with a foil.

	Just my little contribution to the war,

	Ken Lipka
	ferret@engin.umich.edu
From: drmo@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Subject: Re: concession, flames, discussion (re: fencing or fighting?)
Date: 17 Dec 92 10:35:07 -0500

In article <BzD3n3.1Cx@iapa.uucp%mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu>, ctrbdo@iapa.uucp%mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu (bryan d oakley) writes:

> In a semi-final bout, score tied at 4-4.  Fencer A finds him/her self
> at the rear limit of the strip.  Fencer B advances, causing Fencer A
> to retreat with haste, landing his back foot well behind the rear
> limit, front foot in the air.  This fencer (A) then thrusts and lands,
> with Fencer B counter thrusting and also landing, no blade contact
> between them.  A halt is called while Fencer A's front foot is in the
> air, and then Fencer A's front foot comes down on the rear limit line
> after the halt.  What's the call?
> 
>   a) Fencer A loses because he/she was off the strip and the attack is
>      invalid, or
> 
>   b) Fencer A wins because the attack was valid since both feet
>      were not off the strip.
> 
>   c) some other interpretation...
> 
> 
> -- 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Instrument Approach Procedures Automation              DOT/FAA/AMI-230
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Bryan D. Oakley                    ctrbdo%iapa@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu

If the front foot does not cross the plane of the end of the strip, my
understanding is that the fencer is still on the strip.  One foot off the
strip doesn't cost the fencer a point.

Therefore the attack is valid.

Drew Moseley
Organization: Sophomore, H&SS general, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 08:13:00 -0500 
From: Randy M Bruno <rb6b+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Broadsword fencing - StageFighting

    I'm strictly a foil fencer, but (after talking to lots of classical
fencers and lots of SCA fencers) I believe there is something to be said
for SCA technique. I don't think either technique is significantly
better than the other (although perhaps one is marginally better).
    A friend of mine who is a classical fencer and knew nothing about
SCA style showed up at an SCA event and destroyed every SCA fencer he
encountered. I think it would be rather arrogant of classical fencers to
conclude that this proves classical technique is any better than SCA
technique. Classical (or "sport") fencers tend to practice more
frequently and work-out (in a strict athletic sense) more often than SCA
fencers. (Of course, there are exceptions.) It's unfair to SCA technique
to judge it by the amount of training the participants are able to
invest in it. My friend attributes his success to "better distance."
This would be reasonable: He could keep better distance because he was
perhaps faster and/or more responsive... not necessarily because his
style was superior.
    Another example... I once beat a former American Olympic triple-A.
(The Europeans can snicker since he was "only" American, but then again
so was I.) Now this is NOT impressive considering the man is of
retirement age. His form and technique is the picture of perfection. If
any fencing could ever be called beautiful, his would be it. I, on the
other hand, (who still haven't gotten down a bolestra) am anything but
perfect. (Quite frankly, I'm horrible.) I was able to beat him *only*
because a young twirp like me is bound to keep better distance being
faster and more responsive. The actual quality of his technique, I'm
sure, has never significantly declined.
    I would be a fool to ever say that my technique or style was
superior simply because I won most of the bouts.

Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: comptec92024@camins.camosun.bc.ca
Subject: My vote
Organization: Camosun College
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 10:00:47 GMT

Iarticle <1992Dec15.222203.23449@progress.com>, schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei) writes:
> 
>       a) How many competitive fencers don't want to see SCA related
  discussion

  I am not a competive fencer.     
>   
>       b) How many SCA'ists don't want to see competitive fencing related
>          discussion,   
>      d) how many don't give a flip...ue in the same group.

   I do the discusion has a much lower noise to signel ratio here the any were
else that I know on the Net.

>   Less I be misunderstood, I don't want to banish either group.  I'm
>   just curious if everyone out I  agree.


        d)
I give a flip.


I came becouse I heard that nasty thing were being said about SCA sword work.
I will stay becouse I like becouse the discussion is interesting.


Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing
From: fred@ivhs.mot.com (Fred Brunner)
Subject: Re: fencing or fighting?
Organization: Motorola IVHS Group - Northbrook IL
Date: 16 Dec 92 17:40:55 GMT

I'm all in favor of the current content, and, as someone pointed out, it's
what I voted for. 

As an aside, it's been very grtatifying to see the level of interest. I'm
surprised it took so long to get the group created, actually.

-FB
-- 
---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   
Fred Brunner - Sr. Systems Engineer (all opinions expressed solely my own)
Intelligent Vehicle/Highway Systems Group - Motorola, Inc.
---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---   ---
Newsgroups: rec.sport.fencing