HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Subject: Re: What's the purpose here?
Organization: Fermi National Accelerator Lab
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 00:52:19 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalno.fnal.gov
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <ATAYLOR.92Aug26154422@gauss.nmsu.edu>, ataylor@nmsu.edu (Nosy) 
writes:
> 	Looks like "kinder, gentler" Muffy doesn't like it
> 	when her net.club is criticized...

Should we be surprised that Muffy defends soc.feminism?!?
 
> <Not that you've tried, as far as I can remember. 
> 	
> 	Muffy has been one of the moderators of soc.feminism
> 	for a little while; obviously that enables her to
> 	know every person who has ever posted or attempted
> 	to post to soc.feminism since that group was created...

Of course, Muffy didn't say since the group was created, but "as far as [she]
can remember."  Back to reading comprehension, Nosy...
 
-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
                                     | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
From: aaron@minster.york.ac.uk
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: Freshm*n
Date: 2 Sep 92 08:32:21 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of York, England
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

Seth Meyer (smeyer@panix.com) wrote:
: How important is it to change the language to make it non-sexist?  For
: instance, back at college, one campus (which comprised of only women)
: organization decided to get the school to change the term "freshman"
: with "first-year student" within the university.
: 

In the UK they are often called "freshers", a non-sexist alternative with
the same root which may be an easier transition. It is an important issue
as it tends to allow you ignore the sex of the "first-year student" and
concentrate on the qualities of the human which is vital in an institution
devoted to academic endeavours if some of the members are not to have their
efforts belittled on a superficial basis. I would say the "first-yeat student"
is preferable to "fresher" as the latter has negative connotations of naivety
which may be disrespectful to more mature students.

	Aaron Turner		aaron@minster.york.ac.uk
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: awerling@nmsu.edu (WERLING)
Subject: girl/woman = guy/man? (WAS: Sexist Incidents)
Organization: NMSU Computer Science
	<1992Aug31.131028.24524@coli.uni-sb.de>
	<Bturnu.7z4@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> <BtuwFH.FIq@encore.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 05:57:13 GMT

In article <BtuwFH.FIq@encore.com> aaldrich@encore.com (Al Aldrich) writes:

>   exactly..this is a perfect example of how far we have NOT come..
>   I don't think things have changed dramatically in `most' men's
>   attitudes except that `most' now know the politically correct thing
>   to say in `public'. For instance, where I work I heard someone saying,
>   " Why don't we hire a `girl' to do that administrative work?"..then
>   another man says, " Why do you assume an administrator would be
>   a `girl'?"..at which point I said to myself, Wow..there is another
>   man who has woken up, until he added soto vocce, " There are too
>   many feminists around here to be saying stuff like that out loud "..
>   what a let down..:-(

You know, I often catch myself saying "girl" and I instantly correct
it to "woman."  The word "girl" is patronizing by its very nature, but
my problem is I'm looking for a friendly term to refer to anyone
female.  Like "guy" is used to refer to anyone male in a friendly
context.  Or casual I guess is a better word than friendly.

Anyone know of a female version of the "guy"?
--
Andrew Werling   awerling@nmsu.edu   yip@acca.nmsu.edu
"now we find sodom strange take it out put it in your mouth how do you like
gomorrah now a taste of this swallow that feel the fish hide the hat ezekial
where's your wheel you better grease it GREASE GREASE GREASE GREASE! ROCK!!!"
       --Chainsaw Kittens, "Ezekial Walks Through Sodom and Gomorrah"
From: kaarts@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Kenneth John Aarts)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: What's the purpose here?
Date: 29 Aug 92 23:05:23 GMT
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada

In <MUFFY.92Aug29123017@remarque.berkeley.edu> muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy) writes:

>  Read the
>informational postings sometime...discussions of how the moderation is
>done are *not* appropriate for postings.  How hard is it to understand
>that?  It seems pretty simple to me.

I just could not find this in there.  If you could, I would like to see this 
pointed out.

Ken
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: mig@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Meir I Green)
Subject: Re: Sexist Incidents
Reply-To: mig@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Meir I Green)
Organization: Columbia University, New York
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 22:54:45 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.144802.3355@news.cs.indiana.edu> alyoung@raisin.ucs.indiana.edu (Amy Young Leith) writes:
>In article <EJH.92Aug25144711@khonshu.khonshu.colorado.edu> ejh@khonshu.khonshu.colorado.edu (Edward J. Hartnett) writes:
>
>An incident here at IU, or rather an ongoing situation, that gets
>me... we used to have a service called "Women's Wheels" which was a
>volunteer group, supplied with vans by the university, who would
>provide rides around campus to women from dusk until 2am.  The
>"problem" started when males started requesting rides, because they
>were uncomfortable walking home after dark.  (To me it seems that
>crime levels at IU are rather high... nothing to be proud of, to be
>sure.)

>a male calls for a ride, all females are dropped off, and then the
>male(s) is/are picked up and dropped off, and then they return to
>servicing women.  So in other words, no more than one sex in each van
>at a time. 
>
>I asked why the HELL this was, and someone said, "Because that's the
>whole purpose of the service, to provide women with transportation
>where they will be safe from men."  

Columbia has vans and cars which take men and women places during the wee
hours.  No such problems.  I have never heard a woman complain because there
were men in the car.  In fact, I have had many women *ask* me to walk with them
because there is safety in numbers, and they think that a male may help deter
any crime.  They trust me.  I certainly hope I am not evil...don't think I am!

 * * * * *  =================== Internet address is  mig@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu
* * * * * * == Meir I. Green == Amateur Packet Radio N2JPG@W2XO.PA.USA.NOAM
 * * * * *  = mig@columbia.edu= Amateur Packet Radio N2JPG@K2KJC.NY.USA.NOAM
* * * * * * =================== Amateur TCP/IP       N2JPG@uhm.ampr.org
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: smgarvin@nyx.cs.du.edu (susan garvin)
Subject: Re: Playing Games with Words (was Re: Sexist studies...)
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 92 14:52:54 GMT

In article <3SEP199210270691@venus.lerc.nasa.gov> ecaxron@venus.lerc.nasa
gov (Ron Graham) writes:
>In article <1992Sep2.160255.4337@ccu.umanitoba.ca>, umlepine@ccu.umanito
a.ca 
>     (Bryan Lepine) writes...
[text deleted]

>>	I LIKED THE STAR TREK OPENING BETTER BEFORE THEY WERE PRESSURED
>>	INTO CHANGING IT! 
>
>Come again?  :-)

They changed "no man" to "no one."

>>Don't flame too hard cuz I respect the right to equality for any race
>>religion or gender, however I don't care who does it, arguing semantics
is
>>silly and it doesn't solve a damn thing. If you are able to obtain
>>equality in the workplace and at home what does it matter if what anybo
y
>>calls you?
>
>My point is that the words we use are evidence of where we really are as
a
>society.  If black folks, f'rinstance, are referred to commonly as "nigg
rs,"
>even in small homogeneous groups where nobody gets uncomfortable, then t
ere's
>no equality for 'em there.  If small groups refer to women as "hot babes
"
>and someone from that small group goes to the workplace (where equality 
s
>supposed to be happening), then what that person said and did in that sm
ll
>group colors the person's perception of women - even in the workplace.  
nd
>equality in the workplace is given a stumbling-block.
>
>What's in your heart finds its way out your mouth.

I guess that this implies that you share the commonly held
belief in talk.abortion that FFL member Steve Chaney is,
in fact, a misogynist, since he regularly refers to women
and "bitches" and "pigs."

>>"4-6-8-10, why are all your leaders men?"  -  shouted by NOW marchers at
> a contingent from Feminists for Life, whose leaders were all women.

Of course, it has been reported that you are the leader of the
net.contingent of FFL.  N

Can you give a date and place for this alleged incident, by the
way?  

Susan
From: payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: ERA question
Date: 28 Aug 92 13:54:43 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <JULIE.92Aug27231959@cucbs.chem.columbia.edu> julie@cucbs.chem.columbia.edu (Julie Wright) writes:
>In article <4zcn6cr.payner@netcom.com> payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
>
>   The subtle difference here is that the bathrooms in your home/whatever
>   is probably single occupancy, where public bathrooms are not. Another
>   interesting point us the women require more bathroom facilities than
>   men. This is why there is a long line at the womens bathroom, because
>   they most likely -do- have equal facilities, but require more for equal 
>   usage. I am making no value judgment here, just pointing out what I
>   understand to be pertinant facts. 
>
>
>	I once read in the paper that the state regulations for whatever
>state I was in at the time (probably NY) for bathroom construction in 
>public buildings were being revised.  It seems that the old regulations
>required an equal number of *toilets* in the men's and women's bathrooms.
>Most builders then added on some (less expensive) urinals in the men's
>rooms.  Voila: longer lines for the women's rooms.

Actually, even given an equal number of toilets, and no urinals, I suspect
that the mens bathroom would still have more throughput, the mechanics being
slightly different. But urinals make a huge difference.

>	Unfortunately, I have no idea where or when I read this, so you'll
>just have to trust my memory or think of it as a plausible urban legend
>(although I'm pretty sure I read it in some reputable newspaper).  
>	A male friend of mine used to tell me about the meetings of the
>International Male Conspiracy (all men were members)

Hey <frowning>, how come I wasn't invited? I had some great ideas!!!  

*grin*

>                                                   , where decisions were
>made like making dresses without pockets and making dress shoes half the
>width of average female feet.  No doubt they're responsible for the 
>bathroom crisis too.  (NO I do not believe in the I.M.C. and YES it was
>a joke, so don't bother to flame me for it.  The bathroom regulations are
>true though, to the best of my memory.)
>
>Julie

Rich

payner@netcom.com
From: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: Winning by Violation (was: new group?)
Date: 25 Aug 92 14:37:03
Organization: Natural Language Incorporated
	<MUFFY.92Aug24152947@remarque.berkeley.edu> <n7=n#8h.payner@netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
In-reply-to: payner@netcom.com's message of Mon, 24 Aug 92 23:13:49 GMT

In article <n7=n#8h.payner@netcom.com> payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
>In article <MUFFY.92Aug24152947@remarque.berkeley.edu> muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy) writes:
>>In article <h1=ngq.payner@netcom.com> payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
[various generalizations about women, to which I respond that I do not
fit those generalizations.]

I should point out, by the way, that when I say that I don't hold those
views, I realize that that does not mean that it is not true that many
women hold those views.  However, *I* know many women who do *not* hold
those views, including me, and that is what I wanted to say.  Onward...

>[...] As I posted in another post, in general, my 
>observation is that women are as sexist as men, not more. Not less, but
>in general, not superior.

Well, is this really a surprise?  I mean, people are people, and
oppression does not make you any smarter, just more unhappy.  We are
rasied in a society that tends to try to put one group above another, so
we *all* learn to do that.

>>Again. I do see some things wrong with all-female organizations.  I also
>>see valid reasons for some of them.
>If, and I stress the -if-, sexism is "WRONG", then there can be no valid
>reason for sexist orginizations. My impression is that most "valid" reasons
>are more a matter of convienience.

Well, I agree that if sexism is wrong then any sexist organization is
also wrong.  However, you have not shown that ALL all-female or all-male
organizations are sexist.  You have to do this before you can claim that
they are wrong, if your premise is that sexism is wrong.

As far as reasons, one that I personally find convincing is the fear of
men that some women who have been raped have.  I think they they should
have a place to go to be helped where there are no men.  However, I also
think that there should be equivalent facilities for men.  Which brings
up an interesting question, since I don't know much about rape of men
and whether they have similar needs or fears - do men feel that they
need a men-only rape counselling facility?  Or would that actually be a
negative?

>Nice ta meet ya Muffy. Seriously.

*smile*...thanks...nice to meet you, too.

Muffy
--

Muffy Barkocy | muffy@mica.berkeley.edu | wi.4636@wizvax.methuen.ma.us
~Little round planet/in a big universe/sometimes it looks blessed/
 sometimes it looks cursed/Depends on what you look at, obviously/
 But even more it depends on the way that you see~ - Bruce Cockburn
From: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: Respect and equality differences
Date: 25 Aug 92 17:14:21 GMT
Reply-To: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Followup-To: alt.feminism
Organization: Ministry of Silly Walks
Originator: lunde@casbah.acns.nwu.edu

In article <4800@daily-planet.concordia.ca> 
honna@cs.concordia.ca (SEGEL honna) writes:
>In article <1992Aug22.192555.18951@news.acns.nwu.edu> 
Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde) writes:
>>The net doesn't need another forum for
> debates against feminism 
>Wha...?  "Debates AGAINST..."  What the hell is that?  Vicarious persecution
>complex?  Faulty syntax? Or deliberated, pre-engineered self-victimization?
>

It's a quote (sort of) from the posting I was responding to
which said:

>Nor do I (but I do hope it is a place for people to post intelligent
>debates against it, that's one of the best ways to grow
>philosophically).

This may be questionable syntax, but I hope you see what I mean.

-- 
 Albert Lunde         | Interfaith  |     *Y*Y*      "A branch on the
 Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu |  Bisexual   |      *Y*        tree of life"
 alunde@nuacvm.bitnet |  Feminist   |.......|.........................
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Subject: Re: Freshm*n
Followup-To: alt.feminism
Originator: lunde@casbah.acns.nwu.edu
Reply-To: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Organization: Ministry of Silly Walks
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 12:36:35 GMT

In article <1992Sep1.191640.10395@panix.com> 
 smeyer@panix.com (Seth Meyer) writes:
>How important is it to change the language to make it non-sexist?  For
>instance, back at college, one campus (which comprised of only women)
>organization decided to get the school to change the term "freshman"
>with "first-year student" within the university.

I would say that changing language is not a first priority; but it is
an area that is easy to do things about.  I don't think any particular
fix is as important as the effects of just making the effort to
address the question.

-- 
 Albert Lunde         | Interfaith  |     *Y*Y*      "A branch on the
 Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu |  Bisexual   |      *Y*        tree of life"
 alunde@nuacvm.bitnet |  Feminist   |.......|.........................
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: tyger@netcom.com (Kitty in the Middle)
Subject: Re: What's the purpose here?
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 06:26:22 GMT
Organization:  The VAX ate my Brain

In article <1992Aug24.000255.10003@news.acns.nwu.edu> Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde) writes:
>In article <fb-ngrn.tyger@netcom.com> tyger@netcom.com 
>(Kitty in the Middle) writes:
>>Look, if you
>>want only the feminist view of things, there is soc.feminism. If you want to
>>see the good, the bad, and the ugly, then read here. I am not going to waste
>>my time on soc.feminism, as I am a woman that doesn't agree with a fair 
>>portion of what is commonly held to be the Feminist Manifesto, and if I tried
>>to be heard on soc.feminism, I'd turn old and grey first.
>
>My impression reading soc.feminism was that the moderators were trying
>harder to keep the discussion civil and related to feminism than to 
>impose any particular view. 

I would agree that keeping things civil is a good idea, in general, but lately
I and others who have posted there or have tried to have compared notes, and 
seen that prospective posts that appeared to us to be harmless, but in 
disagreement with the party line, if you will, were rejected. Now, this debate
raged for almost a week in soc.men and women, which is why this group is now
here. Muffy dropped in to defend the moderators on that same civility issue, 
and she made some good points, I thought, in defense of moderation. However,
moderation to me smacks of censorship, and I can't stand that.  Poems like 
the one which started the posts in this newsgroup really contribute nothing to
the discussion, so I could see, I suppose, dropping it and similar posts, but I
also think that people have a right to say whatever they please on a subject, 
which can lead to flambait like the Feminist Chicks poem, but who cares? 
Complain to his/her sysadmin, press "N" or set up a kill file. It's there, but 
that doesn't mean people have to read it. 

>What particularly do you disagree with in feminism?

The "The best man for the job is a WOMAN" attitude I see expressed by 
many feminists. Sometimes this is true. Sometimes it is not. That's just the
way things work independent of Old Boy Networks, or a White Male Conspiracy.

> Albert Lunde         | Interfaith  |     *Y*Y*      "A branch on the

    Tyger

-- 
      Kristen Kohlbecker    And I would choose to be with you
      tyger@netcom.com      That's if the choice were mine to make   
                            But you can make decisions too
      A Tyger and a Lady    And you can have this heart to break 
 
                       
        
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: bkt@blacks.jpl.nasa.gov (Barrie Trinkle)
Subject: Re: ERA question
Organization: Image Analysis Systems Group, JPL
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 21:44:24 GMT

hillyard@msc.cornell.edu writes:

>From article <MUFFY.92Aug26131623@remarque.berkeley.edu>, by muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy):
>> 
>> Well, I don't think that Richard is actually "pooh-poohing" these
>> things; rather, he is pointing out that these are things which many
>> people object to and which therefore were used to convince people that
>> the ERA was a "bad idea."
>> 

>So what is wrong with pointing out the legitimate consequences of a law
>in order to convince someone not to support it.  If they weren't legitimate,
>complaining is fine, but the two he mentioned were not far-fetched at all.

Agreed that they're not far-fetched.  Like Muffy, I'd support both 
consequences (along with her objection to the draft in general).
I think the real "complaint" might be that these "consequences" were
often presented completely out of context.  E.g., people were led to
imagine the "unisex bathroom" as a huge public room with men, women
and children all streaming in and out and a complete lack of privacy, 
when in fact many places already have unisex bathrooms (the single-room-
with-a-lock-on-the-door type).

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
..nothing is so fatal to maidenly delicacy of speech as the run of 
a good library.
				Robertson Davies, _Tempest Tost_
From: df@anableps.berkeley.edu (d)
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
Subject: Re: proposed vote of confidence
Date: 2 Sep 92 16:49:54
Organization: /home/gypsum/riki/df/.organization
	<1992Sep2.164407.24466@panix.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: anableps.berkeley.edu
In-reply-to: gcf@panix.com's message of 2 Sep 92 16:44:07 GMT


In article <1992Sep2.164407.24466@panix.com> gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch) writes:
>   It seems rather totalitarian to focus on the only
>   newsgroup on the net where mention of feminism does not
>   bring down a barrage of flames.

  It *is* totalitarian... that's the purpose of these people who want to
silence feminists, or denounce them as militant/incoherent lesbians (or
some other "awful" label.)  Obviously anyone who won't bow down to the
superior wit and force of the ruling party must be silenced, humiliated,
or destroyed.  Any woman who speaks her mind (e.g. muffy, etc.)
obviously must be stripped of her force, by ridicule, or actual seizure
of her position as moderator (which gives small power, by any standard).
I imagine if she were a man, then the tone on this newsgroup would be
very different.

>  Is only silence permissible?

  Only if it is the oppressed who are silenced.

 -- d
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Subject: Re: Feminism & Women's Studies
Followup-To: alt.feminism
Originator: lunde@casbah.acns.nwu.edu
Reply-To: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Organization: Ministry of Silly Walks
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 02:56:01 GMT

In article <3895@keele.keele.ac.uk> 
csa09@seq1.keele.ac.uk (Paul Singleton) writes:
>An academic course on "women's studies" should not be a vehicle for working
>off pent up anger.  [...]

 That's what USENET is for...

;) ;)


-- 
 Albert Lunde         | Interfaith  |     *Y*Y*      "A branch on the
 Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu |  Bisexual   |      *Y*        tree of life"
 alunde@nuacvm.bitnet |  Feminist   |.......|.........................
Newsgroups: alt.feminism
From: spzkny@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov (JAMES ZAKANY)
Subject: Re: Freshm*n
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center
Date:  4 Sep 1992 09:23 EST  

In article <oneil.715538064@cwis>, oneil@cwis.unomaha.edu
 (Sharon O'Neil) writes...

>>(Jeffrey S Linder) writes:
>>...try and demonstrate some systemic sexism 
>>in Western culture my looking for "MAN" in every word and then assumming that 
>>excludes female.  My advice to these people: try a serious issue or you won't 
>>be taken seriously.

>(Sharon O'Neil) 
>But it is a serious issue.  

But when "womyn" is advocated to eliminate m-e-n from the word, it becomes 
extreme silliness.  Making up new words (ex. "Ms") is a little petty.

>"Man" in English is gender-specific.  If I told you to go talk to that "man"
>over there, and the "man" happened to be female, you'd think I was an idiot.

But words that contain the letters m-a-n are, in usage, non-gender-
specific.  The "policeman" can be male or female.  That's well understood 
by people in our culture.  

>We are not grasping.  We are trying to point out that the way we use language
>does reflect society.

Yes, words such as "policeman" DO reflect the history of all-male police 
forces.  Its usage today, however, is non-gender-specific.  Ditto "midwife".

>It's easy for you, as a male, to say it does not matter.

It's easy for you, as a woman, to claim that it does.  Changing the English 
language to promote a political/social agenda just doesn't fly with most 
people.
                                                  James S. Zakany