HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ucap22w@ucl.ac.uk (Martin S T Watts)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: CD shops in London/Paris
Date: 27 Aug 92 15:46:14 GMT
Organization: Bloomsbury Computing Consortium

MATGBB@LURE.LATROBE.EDU.AU (BYRNES,Graham) writes:

>Hi there.
>In two days I'm heading to Belgium for a conference. En route, I'd like
>to do some browsing on fields more exotic than those imported to Australia.
>I have 12 hrs in London on Sunday, during which I have to get from Heathrow
>to Gatwick. The following Saturday I have free in Paris.
>  Any suggestions for CD shops to be visited in these two cities?
>Thanks,
>Graham Byrnes
>PS I know Paris pretty well, London much less, so a hint on location would
>be appreciated.. Thanks again.

My favourite c.d. shops in London are:

1) Covent Garden Records, 84 Charing Cross Rd., WC2. Reasonably priced, wide
range of classical c.d.s, plus quite a few second-hand. The used boxed sets
are often particularly good value. You can listen to any c.d.s you're thinking
of purchasing on  headphones first, which is quite rare in England.

2) Music Discount Centre, 29 Rathbone Place, W1 and also on Strand, WC2 near
Charing Cross station. Good range and value with regular sales.

3) Harold Moores Records and Video, 2 Great Marlborough Street, W1. A pretty
large selection and quite a few second-hand. (A lot of second hand l.p.s in
the basement.) Staff generally helpful, and quite knowledgable.

4) Cheapo Cheapo Records, Rupert Street, W1. In the very seediest part of
Soho, but sometimes with some remarkable bargains at "fallen off the back
of a lorry" prices. They'll not give you a receipt, but I've not had any
trouble with c.d.s they've sold me yet. Worth a look in if you don't take
offence at being propositioned as you leave the shop.

5) HMV Shop, Oxford Street, 100yds. east of Oxford Circus. Has a vast selection
but usually at rather inflated prices.

6) Virgin Records, Oxford Street, near Tottenham Court Road tube. Worth dropping
in if you're passing. More reasonably priced than HMV.

7) Tower Records, Piccadilly Circus. A large number of c.d.s, but never the ones
you want! I've stopped bothering with this one now. Their prices are very high
too.

And I've just noticed - you say you're in London on Sunday!! Well, of the above
Virgin Records opens on Sundays, and possibly Covent Garden, though I'm unsure.
I'm afraid, as a rule, shops are still shut on Sundays in London.
None of these is exactly en route from Heathrow to Gatwick either.
Still, I hope the information is of use.

Cheers,
Martin Watts.
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: John Cage is Dead
Date: 28 Aug 92 21:42:11 GMT
Organization: Princeton University
Originator: news@nimaster

In article <Btopq6.L4I@quake.sylmar.ca.us> brian@quake.sylmar.ca.us (Brian K. Yoder) writes:
>There is certainly such a thing as music I consider to be "bad".  There is
>also such a thing as "good": music that I don't like as much as certain other
>"good" music.  Can you tell me just what sorts of good ideas Cage is
>trying to express?

Brian, you can't even tell us what sorts of good ideas *Beethoven* is
trying to express.  You can't even apply your own model of music to
your own paradigms of good music, so why insist that everyone else
do so?

Once again: what are the metaphysical value judgments expressed in
Beethoven's Seventh, and how do you know?

>Here's an interesting exercise:  Do you think that music is a kind of art?
>If so, what would you say al of the various kinds of art have in common?
>In other words, tell me what is ALIKE about music, painting, sculpture,
>literature, and dance.  Perhaps your answer will allow you to better understand
>where I get my definition from.

>Perhaps Roger Lustig would like to try his hand at this one too?!?

I already have.  Want it again?  The arts have in common that people
enjoy the play of a thing: of sound (music), of motion (dance), of
language (literature), of color and shape and image (painting and
sculpture and so on).  This is true of these things no matter what
metaphysical system the creators or users of these things employ, no
matter what specific materials or patterns are used.  By "play" I mean
several things, one -- but only one -- of which is use for communication;
others involve transformation of objects, reference to things via 
cultural or otherwise conventional codes, etc.  Some art may convey
metaphysical value judgments (whatever they are; I don't know your definition
of them); other art may have other purposes.

Roger
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: steve@fid.morgan.com (Steve Apter)
Subject: Re: Defending Cage (cont. oops!)
Organization: Morgan Stanley & Co., New York, NY
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 22:11:15 GMT

In article <JcN3PB3w165w@west.darkside.com> k@west.darkside.com (K) writes:

>							 Do any of you 
>remember the Futurists?

You mean those guys who painted speed-lines on their heads?

>  How about Dada?  

More importantly, how about Mama?

>			The theater of the absurd?

is ... ?

>Enuf Soap Box.

More soap.

>
>.k.

As in, uh, Joseph?



Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: chem91@Rosie.UH.EDU ("Bill Harrison (713)-743-2789")
Subject: Re: John Cage is Dead
Reply-To: chem91@Rosie.UH.EDU
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 22:21:10 GMT

In article <CB.92Aug26142406@tamarack13.timbuk>, cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster) writes:
>Steve Apter writes:
>
>   ... Cardew calls for an end to "formalist
>   garbage", and sounds the trumpet for a "people's music", presumably
>   of the sort you deride, presumably overseen by committees consisting
>   of the politically enlightened.
>
>People like Ligeti, Nono, and Berio were big on this too.  Their music
>was supposed to advance Marxist ideas, so naturally workers would want
>to hear it, right?  In union halls, yet.  As with many Marxist
>suppositions, this failed to take account of what anyone actually wants
>(which, as we know, consists 99% of Michael Jackson, Garth Brooks, and
>equivalents).

Well, *I'll* stick to Nono, thanks very much.

>
>Chris Brewster
>cb@cray.com
>

Actually, Cardew admits to the futility of *avant garde* music to influence
"the masses", compared to e.g. 60's rock music. All this is discussed (at
great length) in *Stockhausen Serves Imperialism*, which if nothing else
is a great title for your bookshelf. One can ignore the neo-Maoist rhetoric
and find the book quite an interesting account of the musical life of that
era, IMHO. At least it's never dull.

Bill

(full details of *Stockhausen Serves...* can be found in e.g. Melvyl)


+ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\               /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Bill Harrison,            \             /       "Be as radical as... |
| University of Houston, TX  >-----------<         reality itself"     |
| CHEM91@JETSON.BITNET      /             \                V. I. Lenin |
+ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/               \~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: markc@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU ()
Subject: Re: Beethoven - overvalued?
Organization: school of Mathematics UNSW
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 06:56:44 GMT


In article <1992Aug25.044827.9106@usage.csd.unsw.OZ.AU> markc@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU () writes:
>No, No, I was right the first time. Beethoven comes first, then Mozart, then
>Bach in fifth spot. After all, Mozart is in fourth.
>>> email: vanloon@cwi.nl  Not knowing Bach = not really living
>				       ^^^^
>another careless mistake. This should be Beethoven.

>>  Everybody has his own favourite to be the greatest composer of all. You
>>  are really stupid, if you insist on Beethoven like that! 
 >> Especially as I have Bach in the first place and after him I don't care...
>>!	Jyrki Wahlstedt
!		Jyrki.Wahlstedt@hut.fi
!  Our life is no dream, but it should and will perhaps become one.


Good grief. You must really be stupid if you insist on Bach like that.
 It's a joke man. Go look up joke in the dictionary. It is not meant
to be taken seriously. You can have whoever you like in first place.

Mark C.
From: jamesc@bassclar.Eng.Sun.COM (James Langdell)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Cage's Bunnies (was Re: Manners, children please...)
Date: 26 Aug 1992 23:56:21 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems
Distribution: world
Reply-To: jamesc@bassclar.Eng.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: bassclar

Diarmuid Pigott (diarmuid@uniwa.uwa.edu.au) says:

>I think the best example to illustrate what I meant is Picasso. His
>earlier works were exemplary in solid craftmanship (craftspersonship?).
>When people said to me P was a charlatan, I would show them a repro of
>his drawings of bunny rabbit and doggies and say "What do you think of
>that?" "Oh..." As P's aesthetic vision developed, respect always was due to him
>because of his genius, but could be demanded from art-Yoders by showing
>the bunnies.
>.
>.
>.
>I admire a lot about Cage - not least his gift for PR. But can you show
>me his bunnies? His doggies? His harlequin? I know his later stuff...
>(Actually this is a mite rhetorical - I know the stuff in question - I
>just want to see what peoplpe nominate...)

A good "bunny" piece (by Cage standards, at least) is "Three Dances
for Two Prepared Pianos".  I've played an old Angel recording of that
(paired with Reich's "Four Organs") for people who didn't imagine
there being anything listenable by Cage.

If I had a recording of his ballet "The Seasons" I could REALLY
freak people out with this game of "Drop the Needle."  I heard it
live at a Cabrillo Festival orchestral concert many years ago, and 
it was a surprisingly strong work by more traditional Zen-free
standards.

His very early (1930's ?) unaccompanied clarinet sonata is rather
traditional, though the rhythms are a lot more interesting than the
pitches attached to them.

P.S.  Do music history/theory classes still use the term "Drop the Needle"
      in the CD era?

--James Langdell        jamesc@eng.sun.com
  Sun Microsystems      Mountain View, Calif.
From: pattisan@midiline.la.ca.us (Patti Hayes)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Recommendations for a beginner
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 92 11:42:35 PDT
Organization: MIDILine BBS - Altadena, CA - (818) 797-3285

aim@ocf.berkeley.edu (Ali Mirza) writes:

> The title says it all. I'm interested in building a classical music collectio
> of the most memorable pieces. Unfortunately, while I know which composers I
> like, I don't have the money to invest in all their works. If any of you 
> know of a list of the most famous works, could you please let me know how to
> get it? Please feeel free to send me your personnal recommendations.
> Thanks
  The various music magazines (stereo music review) run discographies for
people such as yourself. Maybe you could find some back issues at your lib-
rary via the reader's digest of periodicals,they list articles in magazines.
Ask the Librarian to help you. 
  "memorable" is subjective..some people like the pieces that stick to the 
composers original intent and others like those that take a little more risk.
Besides listening to your local classical stations and joting down various
titles that appeal to you,You might make friends with a local music shop that
will allow you you return what you don't like and exchange it for something 
else...the Wherehouse and Music+..both do this for me. You might also ask 
about samplers..I have several tapes of a couple of pieces from a full tape 
that the sales person gave to me to listen to to encourage me to buy the full
tape. 
   I have never been disappointed by eugene ormandy as a conductor and the 
sound that he got out of his musicians. He is now dead but the recording do 
remain for us to enjoy. I have about 60 of them I think :> Ozawa is good and 
mehta ...well it just depends on what you are looking for in the piece. I love
the sound of Ormandy but have several recordings of the same pieces depending 
on my mood.  
  Don't forget to check at the used places for music too...you can get things
there for a dollar or two and if you don't like them you can usually take 
them back  too.  I have found some very interesting things for a dollar. 
Good luck and happy listening!
From: dgold@basso.actrix.gen.nz (Dale Gold)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Cardew and "people's music"
 <1992Aug28.032718.7792@uniwa.uwa.edu.au> <1992Aug28.150812.24215@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> <1992Aug28.215156.8782@Princeton.EDU>
    <46886@dscatl.UUCP>
Date: 31 Aug 92 02:07:51 PST
Organization: New Zealand Symphony Orchestra

Quoted from <46886@dscatl.UUCP> by mgresham@dscatl.UUCP (Mark Gresham):
> In article <1992Aug28.215156.8782@Princeton.EDU> roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:
> >In article <1992Aug28.150812.24215@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin) writes:
> >>Well, the US has got Howard Hanson, Walter Piston, Samuel Barber, William
> >>Schuman, Vittorio Giannini, and a whole bunch of similar hacks who sound
> >>pretty near indistinguishable from Khrennikov and Schchedrin and who are
> >>played by the major orchestras solely because of their similar
> >>acceptability to a bureaucratic establishment.  
> [stuff deleted...]
> It's becoming more the case in recessionist attitudes.
> 
> I would say that it depends on the orchestras.  Once might hazard
> a guess that the major orchestras are more conservative these days
> than the regional orchestras, as the regionals are more willing to
> use new works to achieve visibility.

I hope you're right, but I've always thought that the major orchestras
have been more likely to sneak in a few new works as a result of a larger
population base and more subscribers.  If an orchestra has some big
draw-cards like Pavarotti or Perlman, or whoever is selling seats in the US
at the moment, it's likely that a lot of people will buy subscriptions to
hear them.  I would think that regional orchestras would be more dependent
on door sales, which spell death for interesting programming.

On the other hand, smaller orchestras that record will be looking for works
that aren't Beethoven or Mahler, and play a big part in keeping life
interesting.

Dale
--
- dgold@basso.actrix.gen.nz
- Korokoro, New Zealand
From: chrisr@hpcvra.cv.hp.com (Chris Robson)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 22:09:34 GMT
Subject: Re: Janacek's Glagolitic Mass
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Co., Corvallis, OR, USA
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical

|/ hpcvra:rec.music.classical / gustavo@dent.uchicago.edu (Gustavo Comezana) / 10:02 am  Aug 25, 1992 /
|
|    Has anyone had a chance to listen to the new recording of the
|Glagolitic Mass conducted by M. Tilson Thomas? I would be interested
|to hear opinions on this particular performance, but comments on other
|recordings currently available will certainly be welcome. I have owned
|(and gotten rid of) the recordings by Rattle (boring!) and Kubelik
|(awful, grotesque brass playing in the last few bars of the work), and
|I would like to fill this gap in my collection. I know that there are
|at least three other recordings currently listed (Kempe, Shaw,
|Mackerras), but my sole source of information on this point is the
|Penguin Guide (for all that's worth: they *love* Rattle, of course).
|
|    Thanks.
|----------

	There's a fairly substantial chunk of it on this month's Classic
CD Magazine - M.T-T vizog is on the cover. Sounds excelent to me, and I
intend to buy the CD, but I have nothing else to compare it to, so
caveat emptor.

			Chris. xxx.


________________________________________________________________________________
    "It's a sobering thought that by the time Mozart was my age he had been
                    dead for two years" - Tom Lehrer.
________________________________________________________________________________
Chris Robson, MS 5UR5			Phone:	(503) 750-2766
HP Corvallis Division			Fax:	(503) 752-7811
1000 NE Circle Bvd.
Corvallis, OR 97330			E-Mail:	chrisr@hpcvra.cv.hp.com
USA
From: jbodnar@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (John Bodnar)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Music of the Fantastic
Date: 29 Aug 92 06:40:48 GMT
Reply-To: jbodnar@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (John Bodnar)
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX

According to mc7g+@andrew.cmu.edu (Michael Raymond Cote):
>I would like to find more orchestral works which are
>along this line; grounded in the fantastic and/or macabre.

I would say Havergal Brian's "Gothic" Symphony is fantastic in a historical
sense.  All of the imagery this piece can evoke is mind boggling.  You just
need to sit back and listen.
-- 
John Bodnar                          : I'm naturally radioative...you are too!
The University of Texas at Austin    : 
Internet: jbodnar@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu : Radioactive potassium & carbon that are
UUCP: ....!cs.utexas!ut-ccwf!jbodnar : naturally in us all keep us healthy.
From: jeffand@csa2.lbl.gov (JEFF ANDERSON)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: John Cage is Dead
Date: 25 Aug 92 21:57:28 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory - Berkeley, CA, USA
Reply-To: jeffand@csa2.lbl.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.254.197
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4   

I'm sure that I'm not alone in noticing that this conversation has sunken to 
the level of name calling, and that nobody is really listening to anyone
else anymore.

So...

Speaking for the masses who have not yet decided for themselves just what
music is, I ask Brian Yoder:

Can you give me an example of a piece of music that communicates some
"objective metaphysical truth?"  You say you have done this many times, but
each of the examples you've offered has met with objections which seem
reasonable to me.  To avoid such objections I suggest that you choose a 
piece of music with no words, no recognizable folksong quotations, and no
obvious social function or suggestion thereof (i.e., no funeral marches,
dances, ceremonial music, etc.)  This leaves most of Western music.  Roger
has suggested Beethoven's seventh symphony, but I leave the choice to you.
You've argued this point long enough to anticipate the criticisms that will
be made.

I'm not asking for a detailed, measure by measure analysis.  Just Brian Yoder
sitting in a concert hall with a piece of music of his choice.  What truth
is communicated, and what is the purpose of this particular piece of music?
Is this purpose really independent of cultural context?

PLEASE, no analogies, definitions or sophistry, just a simple example of 
Brian's philosophy at work.

Jeff Anderson
From: garretso@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Leon T. Garretson)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Have you heard the one about...
Date: 27 Aug 1992 20:46:27 GMT
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston
	Does anyone know of a parody of Wagner's "Tristan und Isolde"
	written by a French composer? It takes several leitmotivs and
	recasts them like a circus polka! Absolutely hysterical.
	It was played years ago on a now-defu


	Sorry to be so general, but believe me, you'd know it if you
	heard it... I'm desperate for the title.   Thanks. Leon


-- 
 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 + Self-denial is merely the indulgence          garretso@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu +
 + of a propensity to forego.                    Leon T. Garretson            +
 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
From: meyer@uuisis.isis.org (Katherine Meyer)
Subject: still more clarinet arcana
Organization: International Shared Information Service (Ottawa)
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 92 00:56:39 GMT

with regards to my statement that Mozart originally composed the Clarinet 
Concerto for Basset-horn.  I should have said (and meant to say) Stadler's
extended-Clarinet.  I just checked out some ref.  

The opening movement of the concerto was sketched for basset-*HORN* in G.
Mozart transposed it to the key of A and completed it for the clarinet 
(probably Stadler's extended clarinet).

Alan Hacker: Mozart and the basset-clarinet, Musical Times, April 1969.

According to Hacker, Stadler had developed a clarinet that had an extension
of 4-semitones below the lowest note of the regular clarinet.
One of the Mozart autograph's is a draft of the first movement of the 
concerto for Basset-horn in G (Hacker states in a footnote here: "The G
clarinet is not entirely unknown today".  He also mentions that J&P Howarth 
repaired two clarinets in G that had been owned by Turkish players.)
Apparently the sketch ends about a third of the way into the development.
The concerto was transposed or continued from this G major sketch in 1791.
 
Quote: It was finally proved in 1967 that the Concerto was written for basset-
clarinet.  In a lecture (f.n. printed in the 1967 Mozart Jahrbuch) given in 
Salzburg the late Eric Hess told of a review of the printed edition he found 
in the Leipzig Allgemeine Musikalische Zeitung (March 1802). The review 
contained the following passage (p. 360):
     Finally the critic feels obliged to say that Mozart wrote this concerto 
     for a clarinet encompassing low c. (rest of quote omitted)
===============
From Pamela Westons Clarinet Virtuosi of the Past (Novello & Co, r. 1982)
direct quote from p. 51 which also encompasses some other things in Hacker's
Article:
In 1787 Mozart had begun to make sketches for works using the extra keys which
Stadler was adding to the lower end of his instrument.  The following year, 
on 20th February at the National Theatre, Stadler played a concerto on his new 
clarinet which had been made for him by Lotz.  It was first called "bass 
clarinet", but is now usually referred to as "basset-clarinet" in distinction 
to the bass clarinet to the true bass clarinet, which was a later invention.
There is no evidence to suggest that this first model went below d, but 
but Gerber describes an obviously later model which went down to eb, d, c#, 
and c.  Stadler had an A clarinet made as well with these four extra notes.
The instrument does not appear to have been propogated and no example survives,
but it served a great purpose in stimulating Mozart to write his superbly 
beautiful Quintet K. 581 in 1789 and the Concerto K.622 in 1791.

There are a variety of recordings of the Mozart Clarinet Concerto with
basset-clarinet, including one by Antony Pay with Christopher Hogwood
and the Academy of Ancient Instruments.

Katherine
MEYER@UUISIS.ISIS.ORG

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: cam@mullet.gu.uwa.edu.au (Cameron Neylon)
Subject: more clarinet muck
Organization: University Computer Club --- Perth, Western Australia
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 03:18:31 GMT

O.k just thought I'd add my two bob's worth to the discussion here.

Clarinet's are made in several keys for the precise same reason that
horn's used to be crooked. In the "good" old days of crooked horns ( 
actually a bit earlier but who's counting ) clarinets had vitually
no keys at all, maybe one or two.

This means they can play their natural scale and the ones with a few
extra sharps or flats, the Bb clarinet could play in Ebmaj, Fmaj,Bbmaj
and C maj, (sounding), there is no way you could play in A maj without
absolutely horrific cross fingering which would be really badly in tune.

Thus the situation was almost the same as horns which simply could _NOT_
play in certain keys. To get around this, they made a few sets of clarinets
a semitone apart. The Bb and A for lower keys A,Bb,D,Eb,E,F,B,C and the 
D and Eb ( yes I think D clarinets were used for this feel free to flame 
if you disagree ), for most of the others and also for a different sound.

The C was a hang over from the older instrument which presumably determined
the original finguring of the instrument.

Another intersting point s that Berlioz in the treatise on orchestration,
says in no uncertain terms, that the player must use the instrument
specified in the score, even though in Symph fant. this actually amkes
the clarinet part in the fifth movement _harder_.

nuff said


-- 
Cameron Neylon  cam@gu.uwa.edu.au
I can't think of anything witty enough that people 
would really want to see it time after time after . .