HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: pp@wsinti01.info.win.tue.nl (Peter Peters)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Led Zeppelin (Tolkien Music) [and RUSH]
Date: 15 Dec 92 15:15:47 GMT
Reply-To: pp@info.win.tue.nl

rwang@husc8.harvard.edu (Richard Wang) writes:

>Yes, indeed; Lothlorien, track 9 on CD I think.  Pretty decent music,
>actually--if you like that sort of thing.  Any other music with Tolkien
>references?

>Richard Wang
>rwang@husc.harvard.edu

Yes, as I recall I should have an album (LP record, no CD) lying around
made by Bo Hanson (sounds scandinavian) which was entirely inspired by
LOTR. All stuf was instrumental, all parts had titles from events/scenes
in the book. At that time I thought it was decent music, haven't played it
for a long time though (my record player suffers from old-age).
If anybody's interested I'll look up the record and give you more info.

Peter.

-- 
| Peter Peters                              | UUCP  : pp@win.tue.nl |
| Eindhoven University of Technology (TUE)  | PHONE : +31-40-474120 |
| Dept. of Mathematics and Computer Science | FAX   : +31-40-463992 |
| Disclaimer : I said WHAT ???              | VHF   : pa0ppe        |
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Thomas Covenant
Date: 16 Dec 1992 13:02:47 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In article <Bz87v7.K49@acsu.buffalo.edu> sulkom@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Mark Sulkowski) writes:
>
>It was nice to see that Covenant valued life,
>even if it was the life of his enemies.  Covenant was mistaken not to
>fight.  But at least he was mistaken on the side of kindness.

It has nothing to do with willingness to fight.  Covenant felt guilt after
killing cavewights.  Foamfollower felt so much guilt for killing that he
had to stick his hand into a fire to burn away the guilt.  And Foamfollower
did not shun battle. 

It has to do with your view of killing even when you think it necessary
and justified.

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Nancy Lebovitz)
Subject: Re: Technology and Morality in LOTR
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 00:54:23 GMT

In article <lewchuk.724799095@therien> lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk) writes:
>steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson) writes:
>>I disagree -- while I do think it has part of Sauron's power, I don't believe
>>it is simply a tool for expansion of power.  As a matter of fact, I see very
>>little evidence that the Ring ever tried to get back to Sauron.  It would 
>>have been far happier with a suitable tool it could dominate (like Boromir)
>>than with the domineering Lord of the Rings.  And in the end, it was the Ring's
>>own pride that caused its destruction.
>
>In what way did the Ring show "pride" and in what way did this cause
>its destruction?
>I fail to see how the Ring could have tried to get back to Sauron in a more
>effective way.  Its powers were limited to psychological manipulation of
>the ring-bearer and probably one or two people within very close proximity.

The ring could also choose to fall off a finger or not--presumably by 
becoming larger or smaller. This ability is consistant with it fitting
on the very different-sized fingers. (Isildur probably had much bigger
hands than Bilbo.)

Nancy Lebovitz
nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu
From: genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Technology and Morality in LOTR
Date: 14 Dec 92 21:07:49 GMT
Organization: Department of Industrial Engineering

Thus spake lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk):

>3.  Gandalf, Galadriel, and Elrond (and Aragorn, in his manner) also used
>    magic, for the benefit of many.  Many "devices" the Dwarves used to
>    build were semi-magical toys.  Thus, this sems to indicate that magic
>    is not associated with "technology" but is a force in its own right.

I disagree.  I argue elsewhere that the *purpose* behind the use of one or
another method is the critical factor for Tolkien in evaluating the use of
technology.  (The key exception, of course, is the One Ring, which of its
created nature cannot be used for good, at least not for very long.)  I think
this position is supported by Galadriel's comments on the word "magic", when
she expresses some confusion/criticism regarding the way mortals use the word.
She can't understand how the same word could apply both to her mirror, and to
the evil devices of the Enemy.  Clearly, she doesn't think in terms of tools,
but of *acts*.  She doesn't classify things as "this is magical, this is
mechanical, this is organic", but rather by the goals and motivations of
the agent.


-- 
       David Tate        |"Out of the dugout endlessly swinging,
 dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu | Out of the manager's throat, the sound fundamentals,
 Prof. of Story Problems | Out of the six-month season..."            
 Member ORSA, TIMS, SABR | 	Walt "Lefty" Whitman
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: paul@pj.tmc.edu (Thorongil)
Subject: The Only Good Orc is a Dead Orc
Organization: Mississippi State University ERC
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 16:03:52 GMT

klaus@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen) writes:
>>>I thought the game Legolas and Gimli played at the battle of Helms Deep
>>>was not from thirst for revenge.  It seemed to be more of a sporting
>>>contest.
>
>Callous, yes, but that happens in war. How is that different from
>fighter pilots counting kills? 
>

This question was posted to the List sometime ago and I repeat it here
to see what you might think on the subject.

"Are you justified in killing orcs simply because they are orcs?"


Thorongil

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU (James Alexander Chokey)
Subject: "Passing away" into the West (was Re: Rivendell)
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 10:09:21 GMT

In article <1992Dec17.065103.7301@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> crosby@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Matthew Crosby) writes:
>
>While I'm here, I found it interesting that Tolkien described Galadriel as
>having "Passed away"...ie, gone over the sea.  I considered it rather
>interesting terminology.
>

	I agree--  and I think there's a lot about the idea of journeying
into the West that has a deathly air to it.  Quite literally, what the Elves 
(and anyone who is deserving enough to go with them) are doing is leaving a 
land inhabited by mortals to go to a far-away Blessed Realm from which they 
will never come back.  
	The fact that they leave Middle-earth on ships lends a rather funereal
air to this journey as well.  Tolkien, being a scholar of medieval Germanic
languages and literatures, knew quite well that ship-burial was one of the
more exalted ways in which the Vikings, Danes, and Anglo-Saxons would dispose
of their dead.  Beowulf, the work on which Tolkien wrote his most influential
scholarly essay, opens up, in fact, with the account of a ship-funeral.  
(There are also the host of Arthurian stories in which Arthur's wounded/dead
body is placed on a boat that carries it off down a river to the sea--  and,
in some tales, to Avalon.)

	I'm less sure of this, but didn't the phrase "to go west" actually
use to be a euphemism for dying, much in the same way that "passed away" is?
(This must have been before Horace Greeley penned his famous, "Go west, young
man" line!)

	In any case, passing across the Sea seems to be the Elvish equivalent 
of death.  Tolkien certainly does seem to use a good deal of deathly language
and symbolism to describe the Elves' journey from the mortal lands of Middle-
earth to the Undying Lands of the Uttermost West.

	--  Jim C. <jchokey@leland.stanford.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: craig@b11.b11.ingr.com (Craig Presson)
Subject: Re: Tolkien a Racist?
Organization: Intergraph Corp. Huntsville, AL
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 14:21:56 GMT

heinr@sci.kun.nl (Hein Ragas) writes:

>Don't forget that LotR is a kind of "modern legend" with ancient
>Celtic legends as example. (At least, that's the way it was told to me
>by several people). So, the heroes and "Good"-guys should be Celtic, thus
>having blue eyes and blond hair.[...]

JRRT explicitly disclaims "Celtic" influence. His influences were
Scandanavian and Anglo-Saxon for the most part (although the phonology
of Elvish has some Welsh "touches"). In any case, blue eyes and blond 
hair are not especially typical of Celtic tribes -- it's more Teutonic.

Even if you buy that, if you actually _read_ the old legends, they don't
often have any dark-skinned foreigners in them -- the "others" are
usually _extremely_ "other". You start getting swarthy enemies from
about the time of the Crusades, hm.

-- Craig Presson
  It is easier to write a mediocre poem than to understand a good one.
								 -- Montaigne
From: rao@moose.cccs.umn.edu (Rao Akella)
Subject: Re: Eowyn
Reply-To: rao@moose.cccs.umn.edu
Organization: Colon Cancer Control Study, University of Minnesota, Minneapolis
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 01:08:34 GMT



In article <1992Dec17.181353.29896@genie.slhs.udel.edu>, nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Nancy Lebovitz) writes:
> 
> This is something I find a little irritating--hobbits are supposed to
> be extremely family centered, but the four hobbits on the expedition
> never seem to think about their relatives.

They may have.  Since JRRT didn't explicitly put down every one of their
thoughts on paper, we must give them the benefit of doubt.  They think of the
Shire often enough, so I assume they then thought of their relatives.  Though I
do think it's extremely fishy that Rosie Cotton is first introduced when the
book is nearly ended, almost as if JRRT threw her in as an afterthought as a
wife for Sam.

Besides, in the RotK, when Sam wonders if anyone else ever thinks of himself
and Frodo, and immediately afterwards there's a paragraph about how the other
members of the Fellowship think of them constantly, even though they're rushin'
around Rohan and Gondor having a whale of a time (okay, so "adventures" aren't
nearly as much fun when they're actually happening).

-- Rao Akella    <rao@moose.cccs.umn.edu, rao%moose@umnacvx.bitnet>

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: djweisbe@unix.amherst.edu (David Weisberger)
Subject: Re: Tolkien a Racist?
Organization: large
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL7]
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 18:28:35 GMT

Carl F. Hostetter (carl@class.gsfc.nasa.gov) wrote:
: In article <Bz4v2s.80K@comp.vuw.ac.nz>, Michael.Norrish@comp.vuw.ac.nz
: (Michael Norrish) wrote:
: 
: > However, as James has pointed out, those races closer to the
: > divine are characterised as 'blond, blue-eyed' wonders, while the
: > unfortunate Easterlings and Southrons are dark and swarthy. In all
: > honesty, I think we have in these chacracterisations some evidence of
: > an underlying racism in Tolkien's worldview. 
: > 
: 
: <Insert favorite Anglo-Saxon epithet here>!!! Tolkien's entire
: mythology is based on a dichotomy of light and dark, and the
: gradations in between. Tolkien's races have the same gradation
: because of this fundamental division;
:
Carl makes an excellent point - it should perhaps be pointed out that
the equation of white with good, purity, etc. and black with evil,
corruption, etc. precedes European exploration of western and central
Africa.  The existing color-value scheme increased the racism against
blacks.

--
Davebo                    "Don't believe I'm taken in by stories I have heard.
                           I just read the Daily News and swear by every word."
djweisbe@unix.amherst.edu
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: sh666@selway.umt.edu (Dave)
Subject: Re: The movie...
Organization: University of Montana
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 03:20:25 GMT

Who would you like to see direct a LoTR movie?
My vote would go to...
1) Martin Scorsese
2) David Lynch (could be interesting...)
3) George Lucas (if he promised not bastardize it into some
                 'kids' movie)
What does everyone else think out there in netland?

							Dave
From: v064lnev@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Avatar)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Lord of the Rings Movie (More information wanted)
Date: 12 Dec 92 10:21:00 GMT
Organization: State University of New York at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

Hi Folks!

	What's this I hear of a movie?  Could someone please give me some more
information.  Thank you very much.

	Leonard Nimoy as Gandalf or Elrond?  Excellent!
	Brian Blessed as Boromir or Theodoen?  Fantastic!

	What about Timothy Dalton (presently James Bond) as Aragorn?
	 
                                       .
                                     .'|`.                                      
___________________________________.'-{*}-`.____________________________________
Zerxes M. Bhagalia                '----|----` INT: v064lnev@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu
State University of New York   .---------------.    bhaga-z@acsu.buffalo.edu
  at Buffalo                 .'                 `.  News Director, WFFT 104.9 FM
Political Science          .'                     `. Justice, SA Judiciary (SWJ)
Computer Science         .'________MDCCLXXVI________`. Computer Consultant (UCS)
---------------------N O V U S   O R D O   S E C L O R U M----------------------
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: carl@class.gsfc.nasa.gov (Carl F. Hostetter)
Subject: Re: Tolkien a Racist?
Followup-To: alt.fan.tolkien
Organization: NASA/GSFC
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 14:16:40 GMT

In article <Bz4v2s.80K@comp.vuw.ac.nz>, Michael.Norrish@comp.vuw.ac.nz
(Michael Norrish) wrote:

> Leaving that to the side, there is still the issue of Tolkien's
> ranking of his human races. Clearly the Elves are at the top of the
> heap. The closer it is to the Valar, the better or more superior the
> race. However, as James has pointed out, those races closer to the
> divine are characterised as 'blond, blue-eyed' wonders, while the
> unfortunate Easterlings and Southrons are dark and swarthy. In all
> honesty, I think we have in these chacracterisations some evidence of
> an underlying racism in Tolkien's worldview. 
> 

<Insert favorite Anglo-Saxon epithet here>!!! Tolkien's entire
mythology is based on a dichotomy of light and dark, and the
gradations in between. Tolkien's races have the same gradation
because of this fundamental division; the division does not
exist because of Tolkien's view of the races. In Tolkien, Light
is holy and pure; would you expect him to make his Light-elves
jet black? I don't think so!

|===================================================================|
|         Carl F. Hostetter      carl@class.gsfc.nasa.gov           |
|                                                                   |
|                    Ars longa, vita brevis.                        |
|          The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.            |
|  "I wish life was not so short," he thought.  "Languages take     |
|  such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about."  |
|===================================================================|
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: mschiffer@engin.umich.edu (Michael S. Schiffer, LHN)
Subject: Re: Half-elves becoming elves
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 92 01:03:46 EST
Organization: Campus Computing Sites, University of Michigan

In article <1gsi1dINNmtg@mirror.digex.com> dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) writes:
>Does it seem strange to anyone else that half-elves can choose to be
>either human or elf no matter what their parents chose?  For example,
>Dior was the child of Beren and Luthien after she had accepted death
>and become, for all intents and purposes, a human.  Yet Dior was
>an elf, became king of elves, married an elf, and got all the
>benefits of union membership.
>
>So the choices of the parents do not affect subsequent generations,
>though the choices of Elrond and Elros seem to have determined
>the fates of their children...

Actually, what _I_ want to know is why the choice of being among the elf-kindred seems to be revocable, while the choice of humanity is not.  How is it
that Arwen can have millennia of life, clearly partaking of the
nature of the Eldar, and then suddenly turn around and say, "Well, I suppose
I'll choose the fate of Men."  Yet the Numenorean kings, descendants
of the same house, who wanted to join their fates to the Eldar couldn't
(if they could have, perhaps they would not have rebelled, but simply
passed over what little remaining Sea remained to join the Eldar in Aman).
Note that the Numenoreans at first wouldn't have been prevented because
of their evil-- Tar-Minastir, if I recal correctly, "loved the Elves
but envied them", and aided Gil-Galad.  If the rebellion of the Noldor
was forgiven, there's no reason to think that envy would have disqualified
him, particularly if the choice was his.  For that matter, why are the
children of Elrond granted a choice at all?  Elros' descendants had to
abide by their ancestor's choice.  But Arwen has "the best of both worlds"--
she retained life for many years, but did not have to face the world-weariness
which the elves complain of for being bound to the circles of the world while
it lasts.  Shouldn't there have been some sort of deadline for her choice?

Mike

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: rlm2910@ritvax.isc.rit.edu (OnedayTasmaniawillruletheworld!)
Subject: Re: whats the fuss
Reply-To: rlm2910@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 04:53:32 GMT

In article <1g60cpINNhjm@iskut.ucs.ubc.ca>, morgan@sitka.triumf.ca (Morgan Burke) writes:
>Caution:  self-indulgent and arrogant opinions follow...
>Years later, I actually managed to wade through the first five books of
>the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant.  I got stalled on the last chapter
>of the sixth book, and never finished it.  The great climax that was
>being built up over the last 3000 pages was about to arrive, and I
>couldn't even be bothered to read just 10 more pages.  It was definitely
>the most boring, unimaginative heap of pointless drivel I've ever
>willingly subjected myself to.  Someone later told me that TC croaks.
>Good.  A year or two ago I read "The Mirror of her Dreams", also by
>Donaldson.  It also featured a throughly unlikable and neurotic main
>character, and a painfully immature prose style.  Ack!  Gag!  Never again!
>
>I can't even bring myself to read Piers Anthony.  Just looking at the
>covers makes me afraid.
>................................................. Morgan Burke
>                                                 morgan@sitka.triumf.ca

	I guess I would be a little more kind to Donaldson, but I will agree
that he hits (pounds? slams? drives a large truck over?) you over the head
about the intense guilt T.C. lugs around with him. I did enjoy "the Land"
itself, the setting and the other characters were very enjoyable (OK maybe a
little over sentimental).

	And yet, Tolkien simply destroys any competition (Piers Anthony? who's
he?) It is the depth of the world and the belief that there is more. Before I
knew that Tolkien was a philologist, I always felt that the names he created
didn't sound made up. Like wierd consonants and vowels put together ("Look a
new Chlard book in the Continents of Uthughthere series!"). Now I understand
it's because he really understood language. Anyway, I can't even pick up one of
those awful Dungeons and Dragons books. They are about as shallow as you get. I
even flipped through a book called "After Tolkien" written by several authors
in memory of JRR (they were short stories) but they really didn't seem to be
"After Tolkien" they were Ok but nothing great.

	Summary: Tolkien wove an epic.
	         Everyone else writes a novel.



	Rich M.

	"I'll show you the life of the mind!"
		-Charlie
From: bac0892@summa.tamu.edu (COX, BRENT ANDREW)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Question: don't read if you don't want to help
Date: 13 Dec 1992 19:18 CST
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: summa.tamu.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <9=j2mhj@rpi.edu>, vaynth@rpi.edu writes...
> 
>Keywords: 
>Sorry, I've never posted an artical before and I don't know what I'm doing.  So
>please don't excpect much.  I'm a pledge and I have a pledge question about
>tolkien.  Here it is:  "What are the names of the two swords found in the Troll"
>and then I can't read the next word.  He said that the answer is in the first
>chapter of The Hobbit, but I thought I'd cheat and ask you instead.  If you
>would be kind enough to send me the answer I would be very thankful.
>Thank you for you time, I'm sorry if I've waster it.
> 
>lenerd
> 

You REALLY should read the book, it's well worth the effort.  The last word
to the question is more than likely "cave".

Oh, and in answer to your question, the swords are Gl......., and Or.....:-)

--------------------------------------------------------------------

-Brent Cox   (BAC0892@SUMMA.TAMU.EDU)

 Disclaimer: "It's not my fault.  It's NOT my fault!"
             [ Nor is the fault of Texas A&M University that
               it is stuck with me and my opinions... ]
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: craig@b11.b11.ingr.com (Craig Presson)
Subject: Re: Eowyn 
Organization: Intergraph Corp. Huntsville, AL
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 15:22:04 GMT

jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU (James Alexander Chokey) writes:

>that in LOTR, domestic roles are assigned for women and vice versa.  The fact
>that she has to disguise herself as a man to go off to battle seems to me
>to be no less telling--  she realizes that she's taking on a male role.

This is also a common story motif, and as far as I can tell, a not
uncommon occurrence in real warfare, at least until recent times. I
grew up in Arkansas not far from Petit-Jean Mountain -- which is named
after a historical soldier who in the end turned out to be a young
woman who was tagging along, in disguise, with her lover. Just reflect
that we are just now experimenting with women in combat roles in any
significant way, and that women in the military at all were unheard of
still until WWII.

>For her to change her mind at the end of the War is not merely to reject
>her desire to be a fighter and accept domestic life.  It is at one and the 
>same time a statment of willingness to accept a "traditional" female role--
>and that seems to me to be significant.

Looks like you're both right.  Chalk up an unusual happening.

[...]
 It might actually be
>kind of interesting to see how closely the two themes might be related--
>to examine the degree to which technology and craft are "gendered" in either
>a masculine or feminine way in LOTR.  I don't know how far one could go with
>it but certainly could be interesting to find out . . .

I think you'd run up against the lack of "normal" female characters in
LOTR. They are there by exception, mostly, or as scenery. Mrs. Maggot
is "a Queen among farmer's wives", for example, and all she does in
the story is serve a jug of beer, a big country dinner for fourteen,
and give Frodo some leftover 'shrooms. I'd be willing to help keep an
eye out for references to women and craft, though, just in case any
exceptions might prove any rules ...

Not only are the women in the deep background, but a lot of the major
male characters are conveniently bachelors. But again, this is absolutely
typical of heroic legend and epic. The major female characters in Homer
come off much worse by comparison: Helen's a tramp, Cassandra's crazy,
Circe turns men into pigs (I hear a snicker in the background), and
only when Odysseus is nearing home does he encounter the likes of
Nausicca and of course Penelope. Oh, and don't forget Klytaemnestra
(shudder).

-- Craig Presson
  "I would dearly like to hear more about Elves; the dark seems to
  press around so close." -- Samwise