From: sys_jpf@xrd.chee.uh.edu (Joseph Formica)
Subject: SUMMARY: PDP-to-VAX tape transfer. Thank-you!
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Houston, Chemical Engineering Department
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 00:51:00 GMT

********************************************************************************
Many many thanks to all who replied. I've attached copies of the suggested 
solutions to my PDP-to-VAX file transfer problem. As it turned out I ended up
taking an entirely different tack. I simply removed the external disk drive and
controller cards from the PDP, plugged them into my MicroVAX II, and used VMS
BACKUP to archive the files. That way, I was able to preserve the file 
creation dates. Now that's what I call plug and play! :-) Thanks again. JPF
********************************************************************************
In article <10OCT199214545986@xrd.chee.uh.edu>, sys_jpf@xrd.chee.uh.edu (Joseph Formica) writes:
> 
> I have a MicroPDP 11/73 running RSX11M and having a TK50 drive.
> I know very little about RSX, quite a bit more about VMS.
> I was hoping to simply BACKUP my files to TK50 on the PDP and restore 
>   them on the VAX. Success has eluded me.
> BACKUP on the PDP-side seems to work OK (everything verifies, no errors).
> I cannot get the saveset off of tape on the VAX-side, however.
> 
> I've tried MOUNTing the tape FILE11 and COPYing the saveset--no luck.
> It goes out and creates a file as large as my hard disk, then dies.
> I've tried MOUNTing the tape FOREIGN and using BACKUP--no luck.
> I get an error about the tape not being standard ANSI.
> I've tried my luck with EXCHANGE, and its been all bad.
> 
> When I had the tape mounted FILES11, I did a
> 
> $ dump/header/block=count:0 mka500:[000000]*.
> 
> Dump of file MKA500:[]"DU0RAW.BCK".;1 on 10-OCT-1992 13:49:44.68
> 
>   .... dump deleted ....
> 
> Well, DU0RAW.BCK is the name i gave the saveset on the PDP.
> I'm a little uncertain about the "" in MKA500:[]"DU0RAW.BCK".;1
> Is there any hope for what I am trying to do?
> Comments and suggestions are greatly appreciated. 
> 
> Joe Formica, FORMICA@UH.EDU
******************************************************************************
From: telong@afterlife.ncsc.mil (Timothy Long)

   Try using the FLX utility on the PDP side and EXCHANGE on the VMS side.
I don't remember the switches because it's been a few years since I've
been on a PDP with RSX on it.
        			Tim Long, U.S. Dept. of Defense
******************************************************************************
From: marin!jerry@seq.uncwil.edu (Jerry C. Hudgins)

The VMS and RSX tape backup formats are incompatible.

You describe running 'BACKUP' on the RSX system.  This means that you're
using the RSX DCL emulator, which maps the BACKUP command to the RSX BRU
utility.  BRU writes a format unrecognizable by VMS BACKUP.

You can, however, initialize the tape as an ANSI volume on the RSX system
and successfully read it under VMS.  If you didn't SYSGEN the RSX system
with ANSI support, you can also use the RSX FLX utility to initialize and
write a DOS format tape, which is readable by the VMS EXCHANGE utility.

Jerry C. Hudgins                   Internet: jerry%marin.uucp@seq.uncwil.edu
125 Cherokee Trail                 UUCP    : uunet!marin!jerry
Wilmington, NC 28409-3407 (USA)    Voice   : (919) 392-2358
******************************************************************************
From: "E. Loren Buhle, Jr. [(215)-662-3084]" <BUHLE@XRT.UPENN.EDU>

It has been several years since I touched a RSX11 system. The BRU utiltity of 
RSX has nothing to do with VMS BACKUP. If RSX now has a BACKUP utility, then I 
don't know anything about it. However, what I did back then ...

>I've tried MOUNTing the tape FILE11 and COPYing the saveset--no luck.

Was to mount a tape FILE11 and COPY the files to tape . . . making an ANSI 
tape. This gets around the problem of the RSX11 ODS-1 filestructure and VMS's 
ODS-2 filestructure. No, I didn't do subdirectories on the tape. I have no idea 
if this is allowed on an ANSI tape.

Dr. E. Loren Buhle, Jr.  INTERNET: BUHLE@XRT.UPENN.EDU
University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine         Phone: 215-662-3084
Rm 440A, 3401 Walnut St., Philadelphia, PA 19104-6228   FAX: 215-349-5978
******************************************************************************
From: Jerry Leichter <leichter@lrw.com>

RSX BACKUP is not even remotely compatible with VMS BACKUP.

You have two alternatives:

1.  Keep the tape, change the software.  If you can find a VAX running VAX RSX, 
    you can do an RSX RESTORE and get the data off the tape.

    It's possible that someone has done a VMS version of RSX RESTORE that 
    doesn't require VAX RSX, but I don't recall ever hearing of it.

2.  Write the tape differently.  Rather than doing a backup, simply write the 
    files to an ANSI-labeled tape.  You should then have no trouble mounting 
    the tape on a VMS system and reading the files back.

    Since you're talking RSX-11M, rather than MicroRSX, you don't even have a 
    complicated directory structure to restore.

BTW, the BEST alternative, if you can arrange it, is to connect the machines
with a DECnet link.  Even a temporary link over a serial line would be enough.

							-- Jerry
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From: Kurt Hillig <hillig@Chem.LSA.umich.edu>

RSX backup and VMS backup have different formats.  However if you simply
COPY the files to tape on the PDP, you can COPY them back on the VAX -
khe COPY command wrutes / reads ANSI-standard labelled tapes.

Note that COPY will not preserve directory structure the way BACKUP will,
so you'll have to do one directory at a time.
-- 
Kurt Hillig
Dept. of Chemistry                     khillig@umich.edu
University of Michigan         hillig@chem.lsa.umich.edu
Ann Arbor, MI  48109-1055
******************************************************************************
From:    COLOMBO@fndcd.fnal.gov (Rick 'VMS lives 4ever' Colombo)

It's been years, but I remember using pip to copy the files to tape
and Copy on the VAX to read them.  I used a blocksize of 2048.

 ___________________________________________________________________________
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 *      **  *  Fermi Nat'l Acc'l Lab   708-840-8225 Fermilab     * *   *
 ***    * * *  P.O. Box 500   MS 369   Feynman Computer Center  *****  *
 *      *  **  Batavia, Ill. USA 60510 Colombo@fnal.fnal.gov    *   *  *****
 *    Of course I speak for Fermilab, Congress and the President... NOT !!!
******************************************************************************
From: SCANDORA@cmt.anl.gov (Tony Scandora 708-252-7541)

One writer can't read his PDP-11 RSX-11M backup tapes on his VAX.  This is to
be expected, as the RSX $ BACKUP command is completely different from the VMS
$ BACKUP command.

Ancient versions of RSX backed up their disks with a really primitive program
called PRESERVE or an abbreviation thereof, which copied all of the blocks on a
disk to a tape.  Needless to say, it choked on bad blocks and had no
incremental capability, among its other virtues.  It worked OK for error free
RK05s, which had 4800 blocks.

The RSX FLX and VMS EXCHANGE utilities can read and write text, .OBJ, and fixed
512 files a lot of the time in a format defined by the long-deceased DOS-11
operating system.  This format is supported almost everywhere, but has major
problems.

ANSI tapes are even worse.  Many RSX systems do not have ANSI tape support,
which is a SYSGEN option.  Without it, you can copy a file to a tape without
complaint, but nothing can read it back.  ANSI tapes have no directory
information, lose too many file attributes, and often corrupt data without
warning.

Later, a utility called DSC, Disk Save and Compress, was the first backup
utility that understood the file system.  It only did full volumes, no
incrementals, and had lots of bugs and undesirable features, but it often
worked.  A modified version of DSC was the only VMS backup utility for too
long.

RMS indexed files presented several challenges to the small memory PDP-11
systems and DSC, so there was a pair of RMS backup (BCK) and restore (RST)
utilities which could roll individual files and directories on and off tape. 
These could handle incremental backups and restores, but only DSC could handle
full volumes.

RSX-11M V3.2 (1978) and later and all versions of RSX-11M-Plus and MicroRSX do
backups with a utility called BRU, the Backup and Restore Utility.  The RSX DCL
commands BACKUP and RESTORE convert their arguments to a command to run the BRU
utility.  BRU, the classic tradeoff between speed and accuracy, is a disgrace
to the software profession, but it is what we're stuck with.  It works more
often than its predecessors, and unlike its predecesors, it can do full and
incremental backups and restores, and except for its first couple of releases,
can back up RMS indexed files correctly.

You said your computer is a MicroPDP-11/73, which is young enough that is most
likely runs BRU.  There are two ways to handle BRU tapes on a VAX:

1.  Back in the good old days, VMS V3 and earlier, VMS had "compatibliity mode"
software that emulated RSX.  It was unbundled from VMS V4 and is now a layered
product called VAX-11 RSX.  It includes most of the RSX utilities, including
BRU.  You may or may not be able to get this for cheap from your educational
agreement.

2.  There is a public domain program called BRUREAD, which runs on VMS and
reads BRU tapes.  It's in [VAX92A.STOCKLEY] on the latest SIGtapes and on many
earlier SIGtapes.  It's written in VAX Pascal, but you don't need a compiler;
EXE files are supplied.

Tony Scandora, Argonne National Lab, 708-252-7541
scandora@cmt.anl.gov or scandora@anlcmt.bitnet
*******************************************************************************
From: Hans Magnus Aus <hans.aus@vax.rz.uni-wuerzburg.dbp.de>

Many years ago I faced the same problem. I do not remember exactly... BUT....
I believe that you have to mount the tape with NOHEADER3 somewhere.

Hans Aus
*******************************************************************************
From: Robert Gezelter <gezelter@rlgsc.com> (+1 718 463 1079)

Good question! The RSX BRU utility (which implements the RSX DCL verb 
BACKUP), and the VMS BACKUP utility have only three things in 
common 8-)> 1) they both use the DCL verb "BACKUP"; 2) they copies of 
files; and 3) they read/write disks and tapes. But, that doesn't 
help you much!

There are four solutions:

1.  Use RSX BACKUP to produce a tape (which you have already 
done). Then use RSX BRU under the VAX-11 RSX emulation product 
(which, if your institution has a CSLG, is included in the CSLG 
license) to restore the files to disk. I can assure you that this 
works, having spent the other day moving a client's files from 
his PDP-11 to his VAX.

2.  There is a program in the DECUS library (it may also be on 
the DECUS CDROMs) which reads  BRU formatted tapes on VMS and 
restores the files. I have not had recent personal experience 
with this program, but if you cannot do (1), it is worth trying.

3.  Use a communications method of moving the files. Laborious, 
but you don't need to do it on a daily basis (KERMIT, DECnet, 
etc.)

There are some other ways in which this problem can be resolved, 
but they are more involved. 

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Robert "Bob" Gezelter                       E-Mail:  gezelter@rlgsc.com  |
| Robert Gezelter Software Consultant         Voice:   +1 718 463 1079     |
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+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
******************************************************************************
From: DROBINOW@FALCON.AAMRL.WPAFB.AF.MIL

>I have a MicroPDP 11/73 running RSX11M and having a TK50 drive.
>I know very little about RSX, quite a bit more about VMS.
>I was hoping to simply BACKUP my files to TK50 on the PDP and restore 
>  them on the VAX. Success has eluded me.
>BACKUP on the PDP-side seems to work OK (everything verifies, no errors).
 There is no BACKUP program on the PDP. The DCL BACKUP command is a pseudonym
for the MCR program BRU. This program is not compatible in any way with VMS
BACKUP.
>I cannot get the saveset off of tape on the VAX-side, however.
 Use the DECUS program BRUREAD. This program requires a PASCAL compiler on
the VAX. I no longer have a copy of this program but you should be able to
FTP it somewhere.
>...
[Various attempts at playing with BRU tape on VMS deleted]
>Is there any hope for what I am trying to do?
 If you can't locate BRUREAD or don't have PASCAL, try the following.

 On PDP, something like this will create an ANSI tape
 MCR ALL MS:		(MU:,MM:,MT: ???, I'm not familiar with the TK50)
 MCR INIT MS:LABEL
 MCR MOU MS:LABEL
 DCL COPY *.* MS:	(or whatever you want to copy)

 On VAX,
  MOUNT MS: LABEL
  COPY MS:*.* DEV$:[DIRECT]

David Robinow		DROBINOW@falcon.aamrl.wpafb.af.mil
Logicon Technical Services, Inc.
P.O. Box 317258
Dayton, Ohio 45431-7258		  (speaking for myself)
*******************************************************************************
From: "Earl D. Lakia" <lakia@ipact.com>

	You can use FLX, RMSBACKUP,  ANSII labled tapes, or DECNET.  Since we
do a lot of development, we normally have a command file that copies all newly
changed sources to a certain directly on the VAX and does all of our backup
to 4MM DAT. The FLX is compatiable with EXCHANGE on the VAX. However, the best
way is to simply copy the tapes as ANSII files using PIP.
*******************************************************************************