Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: How the Cardinals can  win it all
From: coop@creole
Date: 14 Apr 92 13:27:59 GMT
Nntp-Posting-User: fleet

In article <1992Apr14.001636.24309@morrow.stanford.edu>, puerta@mcs-next-10.stanford.edu (Angel Puerta) writes:
> In article <1992Apr13.125822.1@creole> coop@creole writes:
>> 
>> And here I said Torre moved Zeile to stroke his own ego...Whitey who?!?
>> 
> 
> There are only two things that the Cardinals must do to get back to the World  
> Series:
> 
> (1) Fire Joe Torre
> (2) Fire Dal Maxvill
> 
> Or, if you do (2) first, any intelligent person who replaces Maxvill will fire  
> Torre on the spot.

And here I thought this was just a friendly little caravan.... OK, let's
discuss this.
 
> This is a copy of the resume that Torre submitted when he applied for the  
> Cardinals job:
> 
> Name: Joe Torre
> Qualifications: Perennial loser, Maxvill's pal

OK, A) An MVP is *not* a loser; amending perennial to "perennial post-playing
career loser" is somewhat acceptable. But not completely.

He *did* take the Braves to the playoffs in '82 (we trounced 'em though!), and
for a while there last year he was workin' some late-inning miracles on a
pretty regular basis.

I'll grant you, Joe's no Whitey. But who the fuck *is* a Whitey? Name a manager
in baseball today who's been as successful as Whitey was with the relatively
low talent-base Whitey had (the Rat got more out of AAA 2-week call-ups than 
possibly any other manager in recent history). What I meant to imply by my post
was that, sooner or later, Whitey's gonna have to blend into the rich Cardinal
tapestry. Joe's the man now, right or wrong. And I'm actually sort of pleased
with 'im; he completely surprised me by pulling off the Zeile C-->3B move. I
was dead-set against it, figuring Torre was trying way too hard to project his
own experience onto Zeile in a burst of early '70's "strategy." But, hey, damn
if it didn't work. How 'bout that?

So, anyway, on to Maxvill. 

I agree. He's got to go. He's nothing but a yes-ma(ssa)n to the AB boys; he
doesn't shit unless Kuhlman says it's cool. Too bad we lost Simmons to the
Bucs; if he had to go, I wish it'd've been to another division or league. Oh,
well.

The key to winning this year, though, has more to do with the players than the
manager/gm, though I agree with:
  
> Joe is true to form this year accounting directly for two losses (opening night  
> vs. Mets, saturday vs. Cubs).

The players have to avoid these stupid injuries, so that we can field a team
with experience at something other than AA-ball in Zaire or bench-sitting in
Philadelphia. Also, we have to hope for *big* years from Jose, Zeile, Guerrero
(75 RBIs'd be big for him this year, I think), and Magrane and DeLeon (who's 
never failed to not disappoint). We *must* have solid years from Gilkey and
Lankford, Ozzie and Oquendo, and Pags. Everyone else can go to shit if these
people perform.

There's not gonna be much that a gm can do about this team, now that the
season's started (hell, look at Whitey in Anaheim; whom that he pursued did
he land this winter? And Joyner blew the joint). Yes, a better gm would've
made some deals over the winter to shore up the still(forever)-questionable
pitching, and gotten one more big bat in the line-up. But now that things are
the way they are, I don't think even Whitey as GM could do much more with the
team. With contracts, agents, and salaries the way they are, getting people to
move in non-free-agent signings is nigh-on impossible.

Only other thing I wanna comment on:
 
> What has Torre done so far? Don't give me crap about rebuilding or youth. It  
> took Whitey a few months to get things rolling. And last year's 2nd place  
> finish only says how bad the other teams were not how good the Cardinals were.

But Whitey had Gussie square behind 'im. Torre's had Kuhlman tyin' his and
Maxvill's hands (though I have a feeling Maxvill likes that sort of thing...).
 
> Angel Puerta

Sorry I sorta rambled here...I'm just shocked that we've got some intelligent
discussion goin' on here. Cool! I thot this'd just be a rootin' section...the
more discussion, the better! I'd particularly be interested in hearin' just why
you hold Torre to be a perennial loser (I know the basix of your argument, but
I'd like some details).

Anyway, whatever, nevermind.

Pat