HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1992 15:59:46 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov:
>emcguire@intellection.com (Ed McGuire) writes:
>>[I'll] assume that the gateway can easily follow a name change, so I discount
>>the significance of the name change as it relates to the gateway.
>
>Sure, some gateways can follow name changes. What if there are some 
>gateways (which have this ability) that have been set up and left on 
>automatic? What if new maintainers have no idea how to change the name,
>or have no idea that the gateway even has the ability?

"What if someone's news system runs fine but they've lost the 'news'
password?  If we add a new newsgroup, they'll be left out!"

News software left on automatic is a ticking time bomb anyway.  It's
hard enough allowing for all the systems with administrators; avoiding
inconvenience to systems without administrators is flatly impossible.

>And again the point I raised above applies...why did it have to be
>changed in the first place. 

I guess the concept of "namespace consistency" means nothing to you.
But what of your fabled new reader?  A reasonable hierarchy benefits
him as he searches for topics of interest.
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
                 just another elitist Usenet administrator
Newsgroups: news.admin,news.groups,rec.music.synth,news.admin.policy
From: dhd@exnet.co.uk (Damon)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Organization: ExNet Systems Ltd Public Access News, London, UK
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 23:23:17 GMT

In article <1992Nov16.202329.21590@bmerh85.bnr.ca> shiv@bnr.ca (Shiv Naimpally) writes:
>Judging from the number of posts I've seen on this topic,
>maybe rms should be renamed 'people.bitching.about.music.group.reorg'

More accurately: ``person.bitching.about.music.group.reorg''...

Damon
-- 
Damon Hart-Davis                          Internet: dhd@exnet.co.uk, d@hd.org

Public-access UNIX (Suns), news and mail for UK#5 per month.  FIRST MONTH FREE.
[1.35] Cheap Sun eqpt.  UUCP news/mail feeds.  Tel/Fax: +44 81 755 0077.
Newsgroups: news.admin,news.admin.policy
From: dan@cubmol.bio.columbia.edu (Daniel Zabetakis)
Subject: Re: Harmlessness of a.b.p.e (long, but read it anyway)
Organization: Columbia University, Dept. of Biological Sciences.
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 01:28:53 GMT

In article <1992Nov18.225743.12386@clarinet.com> brad@clarinet.com (Brad Templeton) writes:
>
>Many people misunderstand copyright as strictly the right to sell a work.
>It is not.  It is the right to control what is done with your creation.
>The most obvious benefit of this control is the right to charge money for
>granting permission to copy, but it is not the entirety of it.
>
   I think that if they aren't being hurt, that most creators would be happy
that others are making good use of thier works. At least works that they
have exposed to the public. Since I think a.b.p.e is harmless, I think most
creators wouldn't object to it. I don't think I would.

>
>This argued, even the argument that this does not hurt the creators does not
>hold water.  Penthouse has recently started an online service.

   This makes me worry. I don't want the commercial world to conflict with
the usenet world.  This online service will be the first big direct conflict.
Of course, there is no doubt that Penthouse will win. And they will need to
take action. I can't imagine an online service being really profitable with
a.b.p.e to redistribute the product to 80% of your potential market. (Remember
that Event Horizons was stealing it's raw material).
   So if they are serious about the online service, a.b.p.e will eventually
be shut down.
   Alt.sex.pictures began an experiment in freedom of information. It was a
tremendous success. I have argued that it never was harmful. As a collection
of individuals scanning and posting a few favorite pictures, it was small
potatoes. I think the current controversy revolves around the fact that even
though the character hasn't changed the size has grown with the number of
users. Even though a.b.p.e is still  an unorganized group of individuals, it
is big by any measure.
   Without harm, freedom should rule. If online services had existed before
usenet, I would have had no problem with opposing a.s.p.  But since a.s.p
came first, it will be a real loss of freedom if new industries kill it. It
will be a great pity, I think, if the desire to make money restricts our 
ability to use the net for whatever the users want it for.

DanZ
-- 
This article is for entertainment purposes only. Any facts, opinions,
narratives or ideas contained herein are not necessarily true, and do
not necessarily represent the views of any particular person.  

Newsgroups: news.admin,news.admin.policy,comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: Child porn posting investigated by FBI
From: rmk@rmkhome.UUCP (Rick Kelly)
Organization: The Man With Ten Cats
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 19:25:38 GMT
Reply-To: rmk@rmkhome.UUCP (Rick Kelly)

In article <1992Nov20.232602.9842@clarinet.com> brad@clarinet.com (Brad Templeton) writes:
>According to our story this morning from UPI (in clari.tw.computers) the
>FBI is investigating the alleged posting of child porn to the net from
>Cornell.
>
>The student in question's dorm room has been raided (!) but no charges have
>been filed.
>
>Lovely.

Was his equipment confiscated?

-- 

Rick Kelly	rmk@rmkhome.UUCP	unixland!rmkhome!rmk	rmk@frog.UUCP
Newsgroups: news.admin,rec.music.synth
From: emcguire@intellection.com (Ed McGuire)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Followups-To: news.admin,news.admin.policy
Organization: Intellection, Inc.
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 00:09:44 GMT

NOTE: Followups directed to news.admin,news.admin.policy only, at the
public request of rec.music.synth readers.

In article <1992Nov15.114539.10491@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:

   What if there are some gateways (which have this ability) that have
   been set up and left on automatic? What if new maintainers have no
   idea how to change the name, or have no idea that the gateway even
   has the ability?

This point strikes me as contrived.  First, since the hypothetical
situation contradicts the observed facts, I discount it.  Second,
/assuming/ this controversy recurs over another renaming, /assuming/
the renamed group is gatewayed, /assuming/ the gateway has no
maintainer, or if the so-called "maintainer" is so incompetent that
s/he can't even change the name of the newsgroup, the gateway will
likely be taken over by a volunteer at another site.

   >I see no evidence of blind adherence.  What I see instead is
   >acceptance of the rule of law.  
   Seriously, what's the difference? 

It is the difference between blind adherence and reasoned adherence.
Ignoring the rules this time will lead to more disputes because of the
precedent established that the rules can be shouted down, amendments
or no.  Following the rules this time will have a small (and hotly
disputed) temporary negative effect on one newsgroup.

   >I think revotes are a big waste of time and should not happen.
   Why?

The newsgroup administration process should be simple, fast, and
cheap.  The guidelines should provide a framework for such a process.
Revotes are duplication of effort which should only occur if a gross
injustice occurs.  In that case, the vote will be annulled by
consensus, one possible consequence being a revote.  Putting rules for
revotes into the guidelines will just arm and encourage rules fanatics
to force revotes.  That is why I oppose revotes in the guidelines.
Again, a yardstick for good policy is whether the right thing occurs
quickly with a minimum of articles posted to n.a.newgroups and other
related groups.

Again, I think no gross injustice occurred in this case.  The current
state of affairs is acceptable to nearly everyone.  That is why I
think a revote of r.m.synth is a waste of time.

   If I can find a good way to drop it, I will. But I can't right now...as
   this is what a lot of people want for the sake of compliance. I do
   not agree with the issue and will continue to not agree as long as
   people are willing to not agree with me. 

I think a straw poll would put this in better perspective.  I will
conduct one.
-- 
Ed McGuire                   1603 LBJ Freeway, Suite 780
Systems Administrator/       Dallas, Texas 75234
 Member of Technical Staff   214/620-2100, FAX 214/484-8110
Intellection, Inc.           <ed@intellection.com>
Xref: sparky news.admin:8599 news.sysadmin:1486 news.groups:22440 alt.config:7143
From: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
Newsgroups: news.admin,news.sysadmin,news.groups,alt.config
Subject: Re: Advertising on Net:how can we stop it?
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 12:12:51 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.

reno@darlo.Eng.Sun.COM (Reno Marioni) writes:
> Is there a admin or USENET cop who can stop certain people from
> continuously advertising on the net dispite numerous warnings from
> many people on the net.  This guy from ICPA has posted an ad at LEAST
> 3 times on one newsgroup and cross posted to many others.
> 
> How can we stop this unethical violation of the network????

You can't.  Give up now and save yourself a lot of effort.


mathew
-- 
Buy new Skweeky-Weets!  The sqweekier weet with the weetier skweek!

Xref: sparky news.admin:8617 news.admin.policy:523 alt.censorship:8954
From: kadie@cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Newsgroups: news.admin,news.admin.policy,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: What is pornography, anyway?
Date: 20 Nov 92 18:41:12 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL

dan@cubmol.bio.columbia.edu (Daniel Zabetakis) writes:

[...]
>   Isn't it true that the seizure of property in these cases (video stores
>included) (and in the USA) are based on the RICO (organized crime) laws?
>Am I the only one that thinks that applying RICO laws to video stores is
>wrong? 
[...]

No, you are not alone. At least one court agrees with you
and at least once court disagrees with you.

- Carl

ANNOTATED REFERENCES

(All these documents are available on-line. Access information follows.)

=================
law/rico-porn
=================
* Expression -- Obscenity -- Forfeiture

Short excerpt from a newspaper story about a court decision. Also a
full newspaper story on a related case. In the first case the judge
wrote that the payoff in discouraging pornography through sweeping
forfeitures "does not justify the additional curtailment of
constitutionally protected, sexually explicit speech." The second
judge ruled the opposite. The Supreme Court has agreed to decide one
way or the other.

=================
=================

If you have gopher, you can browse the CAF archive with the command
   gopher gopher.eff.org

These document(s) are also available by anonymous ftp (the preferred
method) and by email. To get the file(s) via ftp, do an anonymous ftp
to ftp.eff.org (192.88.144.4), and get file(s):

  pub/academic/law/rico-porn

To get the file(s) by email, send email to archive-server@eff.org.
Include the line(s) (be sure to include the space before the file
name):

send acad-freedom/law rico-porn

-- 
Carl Kadie -- I do not represent any organization; this is just me.
 = kadie@cs.uiuc.edu =
Newsgroups: news.admin,news.sysadmin,news.groups,alt.config
From: tleylan@pegasus.com (Tom Leylan)
Subject: Re: Advertising on Net:how can we stop it?
Organization: Pegasus,  Honolulu
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 92 06:14:54 GMT

reno@darlo.Eng.Sun.COM (Reno Marioni) writes:

>Is there a admin or USENET cop who can stop certain people from
>continuously advertising on the net dispite numerous warnings from
>many people on the net.

And after "numerous warnings" my, my I'd speak to the owners of USENET
and use the words "or else"... that'll get 'em.

While my attempts at humor may have failed I will suggest that I will
match you 10 to 1, for every ad you find placed, I'll find 10 messages
that aren't ads but are more of a waste of net bandwidth.

Relax

tom

Newsgroups: news.admin,news.admin.policy,comp.org.eff.talk
From: brad@clarinet.com (Brad Templeton)
Subject: Child porn posting investigated by FBI
Organization: ClariNet Communications Corp.
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 23:26:02 GMT

According to our story this morning from UPI (in clari.tw.computers) the
FBI is investigating the alleged posting of child porn to the net from
Cornell.

The student in question's dorm room has been raided (!) but no charges have
been filed.

Lovely.
-- 
Brad Templeton, ClariNet Communications Corp. -- Sunnyvale, CA 408/296-0366
Newsgroups: news.admin,news.admin.policy
Subject: Re: What is pornography, anyway?
From: rmk@rmkhome.UUCP (Rick Kelly)
Organization: The Man With Ten Cats
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 19:24:17 GMT
Reply-To: rmk@rmkhome.UUCP (Rick Kelly)

In article <1992Nov20.160910.1203@news.columbia.edu> dan@cubmol.bio.columbia.edu (Daniel Zabetakis) writes:
>In article <9211191517.47@rmkhome.UUCP> rmk@rmkhome.UUCP (Rick Kelly) writes:
>>
>[about child porn/porn/obscenity definitions]
>
>>I have enough doubts about this, that I would not gate a.b.p.e through
>>my system.  If the state authorities confiscated my system as evidence,
>>I would expect to never see it again, whether I won in court or not.

>   All that can be said here is that it is a very sad case when a person
>refrains from an action that they might otherwise take because of a fear
>of the effects of a wrongful prosecution. Very sad.

When a witch hunt is going on, it is better not to look like a witch.

>   Isn't it true that the seizure of property in these cases (video stores
>included) (and in the USA) are based on the RICO (organized crime) laws?
>Am I the only one that thinks that applying RICO laws to video stores is
>wrong? 

No, I believe it is just simple laws of evidence.

-- 

Rick Kelly	rmk@rmkhome.UUCP	unixland!rmkhome!rmk	rmk@frog.UUCP
Xref: sparky news.admin:8557 news.admin.policy:415 rec.music.synth:18517
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Newsgroups: news.admin,news.admin.policy,rec.music.synth
Subject: Re: STRAW POLL ON NEWSGROUP RENAMING
Date: 16 Nov 92 23:10:29 GMT
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA

emcguire@intellection.com (Ed McGuire) writes:
>1.  Do you read rec.music.synth?
>	(yes/no)
>2.  On the issue of rec.music.synth renaming, do you
>	(a) strongly favor rec.music.synth, please proceed with revote
>	(b) strongly favor rec.music.makers.synth, please leave as is
>	(c) strongly favor dropping the dispute, please leave me alone
>	(d) not care as long as a synth group exists

How about adding:

3.   If you knew about the renaming vote during the voting period,
	would you have:

	(a) voted for the rename
	(b) voted against the rename
	(c) not voted

     
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

A man was drowning amidst a crowd of people. "Give me your hand!", they 
shouted but the man ignored them. A wise man asked what the man's profession 
was. "A tax collector." came the response. The wise man ran up to the 
drowning man and said "Take my hand!", which the man did and he was saved.  
The people turned to the wise man in disbelief, who said "Never ask 
Newsgroups: news.admin,news.sysadmin,news.groups,alt.config
From: ETHICAL SOLUTIONS
Subject: Re: Advertising on Net:how can we stop it?
Organization: SEL-Alcatel LTS Dept. US/ES
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 13:48:40 GMT

In article <lgitbkINNhm2@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM>, reno@darlo.Eng.Sun.COM (Reno Marioni) writes:
|> 
|> Hello,
|> Is there a admin or USENET cop who can stop certain people from
|> continuously advertising on the net dispite numerous warnings from
|> many people on the net.  This guy from ICPA has posted an ad at LEAST
|> 3 times on one newsgroup and cross posted to many others.
|> 
|> How can we stop this unethical violation of the network????
|> 
|> 
|> 

A good question, Reno and one which has been worrying lots of people for a LONG time...

Well, Reno - and all you other netters - you'll be pleased to hear that ETHICAL SOLUTIONS has come up with the answer!  Yes, you never believed you'd see it but here it is and it's available right NOW!!

Just email to ETHICAL SOLUTIONS and mark your mail "Dept boring.boring.boring" for details.  For just $10.00 you could find the answer to all those important questions in life like:

	"How do you spell "BORING" backwards?"

	"Will there ever be anything interesting on this net?"

	"How did I get to be SO boring that things like networks seem important?"

	"Who the hell is Dave Hayes and are they out to get him?"		    
	"Who gives a shit?"

Mail us NOW and we'll include a FREE cuddly washable toy computer with your first order so you need never be without your SPECIAL FRIEND...


ETHICAL - YOUR PARTNER FOR REALITY
Newsgroups: news.admin,news.sysadmin,alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.d,news.admin.policy
From: ckd@eff.org (Christopher Davis)
Subject: Re: a.b.p.e. distribution (was, Re: Does USENET condone CHILD
Followup-To: news.admin.flame
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation Tech Central
	<BxL4J5.147@servalan.servalan.com>
	<1992Nov20.033210.29489@gmuvax2.gmu.edu>
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 17:27:06 GMT

MB> == Mario Brandan <mbrandan@gmuvax2.gmu.edu> 
RT> == rmtodd@servalan.servalan.com (Richard Todd) writes:

 RT> system administrator *does* have a Quadra 700 on his desk; in
 RT> addition to being his desktop machine, it's the news server, and he
 RT> puts up with the (decidedly non-trivial) load providing Usenet
 RT> service to the whole campus puts on his machine.

 MB> Nobody forced him to do that right?  Fine, what is your point?

News machines are not free.  News disk space is not free.  A 2G
(formatted) drive costs in the neighborhood of $2500-$3K depending on
discount deals and the like.

(from finger mbrandan@gmuvax2.gmu.edu)
 F> Login name: mbrandan                    In real life: Mario Brandan
 F> Directory: /usr/students/mbrandan       Shell: /bin/csh

How much disk space is available on /usr/students?  Do you have a disk
quota?  Why, since disk is just SOOOOO cheap?  Why aren't you
complaining that they don't give you a separate 2G drive of your own?

 RT> Look, *you* think Usenet is important.  *I* think Usenet is important, so
 RT> much so that I bought my own machine for it, with my own money (which is
 RT> probably more than *you*'ve ever done).  But the people who sign purchase
 RT> orders at Universities *don't* think this.  Wake up and smell the coffee.

 MB> Buddy, what you do with your money is your business, if you have
 MB> problems with what people want, take your server else where!

And he might.  The point is that it is not *your* place, nor is it
anyone else's place, to tell him what groups he will carry or not carry.

 RT> You think disk drives are cheap.  Fine.  *You* send us one.  We prefer
 RT> the 1.2GB Fujitsu SCSI drives.  Write me and I'll tell you the address to
 RT> put on the package.  Put up or shut up.

 MB> That's the kind of drive you probably have!

Yeah, and he probably paid good money for it, too.

 MB> Maybe if you looked around you'd find cheap ones so you can store
 MB> more info.

Cheap != free.

 MB> You know, I just think you have an attitude problem I really didn't
 MB> like your language either, if you want to write to this newsgroup,
 MB> you should straighten out your foul language.

Foul language?  What foul language, "Quadra 700"?

 MB> It takes up disk space buddy!

As much as one uuencoded gif?  I doubt it.
--
Christopher K. Davis      | ``Usenet seems to run much like the Kif (or,
<ckd@eff.org>   EFF #14   |   for the TV generation, Klingon) high command.
System Administrator, EFF |   Whoever takes action and can be heard wins.''
+1 617 864 0665  [CKD1]   |   --Peter da Silva <peter@ferranti.com>
Xref: sparky news.admin:8594 news.admin.policy:474
From: hartman@ulogic.UUCP (Richard M. Hartman)
Newsgroups: news.admin,news.admin.policy
Subject: Re: Harmlessness of a.b.p.e (long, but read it anyway)
Date: 18 Nov 92 17:55:39 GMT
Followup-To: news.admin
Organization: negligable

Dan's signature says it all:

>This article is for entertainment purposes only. Any facts, opinions,
>narratives or ideas contained herein are not necessarily true

Nothing you have said alters either the law, or the culpability
of a bbs (or usenet) system administrator should they be made
aware of illegal (for copyright OR OTHER REASONS) material posted
on their systems.

		-Richard Hartman
		hartman@ulogic.COM

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Badges?  I don' got to show you no stinkin' badges!"
Xref: sparky news.admin:8628 news.admin.policy:541 rec.music.synth:18731
From: dave@frackit.UUCP (Dave Ratcliffe)
Newsgroups: news.admin,news.admin.policy,rec.music.synth
Subject: Re: STRAW POLL ON NEWSGROUP RENAMING
Summary: Why ask question #1?
Date: 20 Nov 92 22:39:45 GMT
Followup-To: news.admin
Organization: Data Factory Services, Harrisburg, Pa.

In article <EMCGUIRE.92Nov15175242@fuller.intellection.com>, emcguire@intellection.com (Ed McGuire) writes:
> Please reply by mail to the mailbox <ed@intellection.com>.
> 
> 1.  Do you read rec.music.synth?
> 	(yes/no)

Ed, why is this question here? Whether a person does or does not read this
group should have no bearing in this matter in any way. 


-- 
 ...uunet!wa3wbu!frackit!dave -or-                       |  Dave Ratcliffe  |
 frackit!dave@uunet.UU.NET -or- dave@frackit.uucp -or-   |  Sys. <*> Admin. |
 vogon1!compnect!frackit!dave@psuvax1.psu.edu            | Harrisburg,  Pa. |
Xref: sparky news.admin:8600 news.admin.policy:487
From: kadie@cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: What is pornography, anyway?
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 15:05:27 GMT

rmk@rmkhome.UUCP (Rick Kelly) writes:

[...]
>Term papers do not set the laws of the community.

True, but neither does the law of a community legeally override
Supreme Court decisions. Term papers are sometimes a good way to learn
what the Supreme Court decisions are.

[...]
>It is easy for the EFF to cite cases and papers,
[...]

I'm do not represent the EFF; this is just me. (Although a member of
EFF and a user of eff.org, I'm neither staff, officer, nor
spokesperson of EFF.) Similarly, I do not represent the U. of
Illinois.

- Carl

law/miller
law/
-- 
Carl Kadie -- I do not represent any organization; this is just me.
 = kadie@cs.uiuc.edu =
Xref: sparky news.admin:8558 rec.music.makers.synth:163