HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: henry@bms.com (Henry Mednikoff)
Subject: Re: Independent Chuvashia II
Reply-To: henry@bms.com
Organization: Bristol-Myers Squibb PRI
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 17:28:07 GMT

In article 093221U52148@uicvm.uic.edu, <U52148@uicvm.uic.edu> (Chicago Cro) writes:
>I was reading some old news magazines, when I came across an article about
>Tatarstan in the Feb 24,1992 issue of U.S. News and World Report. It said
>that "In principle, Tatarstan doesn't meet Russia's requirements for full
>independence because theregion is not overwhelmingly Tatar, butethnically mixed
>" (pg 49).  What!?! I can think of one place that does meet Russia's
>requirements for full independence. That is Chuvashia. With nearly 70% of its
>1.5 million inhabitants being Chuvash. It has nearly the same demographic brake
>down like Estonia, but more Chuvashes and less Russians.
>I know that the independent Chuvashia will be surrounded on all sides by Russia
> but who cares? The Republic of San Marino on the Italian Peninsula is
>surrounded by Italy, and no one says anything. Heck, San marino is in the U.N..
>
>So think about it. I wish the Chuvashes well.
>
>
>-Cro


It is an absolute absurd I have ever heard !
How about Independent Nation Of Illinoi, or The Democratic Republic of New York ?
In New York city we have more population than in Chuvashia with more ethnic diversity
than in Mother Chuvashia, so we are entitled for statehood, aren't we ?

Henry.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: dbd@urartu.sdpa.org (David Davidian)
Subject: Derdzinski's replacement
Organization: S.D.P.A. Center for Regional Studies
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 13:11:51 GMT

I noticed the statue of Derdzinski, founder of the KGB, in the square where 
the main KGB building(s) are located, has been replaced by an Orthodox cross, 
in Moscow. Is there some significance to this replacement, that is, why a 
cross? When I inquired regarding this cross, I was told that not only was 
Derdzinski the founder of the KGB, but was also of a Jewish background. What
kind of answer is this?


-- 
David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org "It has been ever thus in all things, son, 
SDPA Center for Regional Studies    Whatever we thrash we give to the wind, 
P.O. Box 382761                     We too have been blown by the world's wind
Cambridge, MA 02238                 The chaff is gone but the grain remains."
From: verbit@brauer.harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Narva in the inter-war period
Date: 10 Nov 92 01:57:27 GMT
Organization: Sozialistische Patienten Kollektiv

In article <1992Nov8.114602.7888@enea.se> sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:
>Sergei Viznyuk have several times claimed here that Narva was
>ethnically a Russian city since the Russians conquered it from
>Sweden in the beginning of the 18th century.

>However, this is not the case. Today Narva has a massive Russian
>majority, 97% is the number usually quoted. But not so during the
>inter-war period. In the 1930 edition of Nordisk Familjebok, a
>Swedish encyclopedia, I found that the population for Narva in 1925
>was around 26.000 whereof 7-8.000 were said to be Russians. There
>were no numbers for any other groups, so NF does not prove that
>Estonians were in majority in Narva at the time, although it is 
>not unlikely.

Dear Erland, you are not exactly right. The problem with Narva
is that this city is almost on the border, and on the other
side of the border there is another city, Ivangorod. Naturally,
in Soviet times these cities grow up like one (like, say,
Estonian Valga and Latvian Valka), so their population
became more mixed than before. If you consider those
two cities together, then you'll see that the demography
sitiation did not change much. Anyway, of these two cities
only Narva grew considerably, because of internal and
political reasons alike. Basically, Russians have had
a great base of Russian city just nearby Estonian one,
so the migration was more easier: some nation's migration is easier
when there are lots of people of this nation living there. And since
Estonia was supplied autonomously from "motherland" there
was considerable abundance of food and other goodies 
there. This explains why Narva became Russian-
populated.

Misha.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: ins548h@lindblat.cc.monash.edu.au (Mr M.S. Popkowski)
Subject: Re: Derdzinski's replacement
Organization: Monash University
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 22:11:04 GMT

David Davidian (dbd@urartu.sdpa.org) wrote:
: I noticed the statue of Derdzinski, founder of the KGB, in the square where 
: the main KGB building(s) are located, has been replaced by an Orthodox cross, 
: in Moscow. Is there some significance to this replacement, that is, why a 
: cross? When I inquired regarding this cross, I was told that not only was 
: Derdzinski the founder of the KGB, but was also of a Jewish background.
Dzierzynski (that's correct spelling) was 100% Polish. Furthermore his 
family belong to the Polish nobility.
:What kind of answer is this?
Dumb. So was the question.
Mirek Popkowski.
: 
: 
: -- 
: David Davidian dbd@urartu.sdpa.org "It has been ever thus in all things, son, 
: SDPA Center for Regional Studies    Whatever we thrash we give to the wind, 
: P.O. Box 382761                     We too have been blown by the world's wind
: Cambridge, MA 02238                 The chaff is gone but the grain remains."
From: U52148@uicvm.uic.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Independent Chuvashia II
Date: 10 Nov 92 15:32:21 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago

I was reading some old news magazines, when I came across an article about
Tatarstan in the Feb 24,1992 issue of U.S. News and World Report. It said
that "In principle, Tatarstan doesn't meet Russia's requirements for full
independence because theregion is not overwhelmingly Tatar, butethnically mixed
" (pg 49).  What!?! I can think of one place that does meet Russia's
requirements for full independence. That is Chuvashia. With nearly 70% of its
1.5 million inhabitants being Chuvash. It has nearly the same demographic brake
down like Estonia, but more Chuvashes and less Russians.
I know that the independent Chuvashia will be surrounded on all sides by Russia
 but who cares? The Republic of San Marino on the Italian Peninsula is
surrounded by Italy, and no one says anything. Heck, San marino is in the U.N..

So think about it. I wish the Chuvashes well.


-Cro
From: arto@leland.Stanford.EDU (Artavazd Khachikian)
Subject: Turkish Mirror in action again
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 92 19:56:12 GMT

Turkish Mirror is in action again. Once it reversed the Armenian
Genocide, switching the victims with the culprits, then it switched
to the Greeks, now it works on hiding the ugly traces of Turkish
"favorable neutrality" vis a vis the Nazi Germany in WW II.

As to Armenian partcipation in the World War II let me inform you about the 
following:

Soviet Armenia:

Out of the approximate 1,5 million population of Armenia 600.000 were
in the battle fields of the Soviet-German front and continued their
struggle until Berlin and Kenigsberg. The Tamanian division,
one of those composed of Armenian nationals, followed the enemy from the Crimea
to Eastern Prussia. By the end of the war, the 1,5 million population of
Armenia was cut by almost a third.

110 Heroes of the Soviet Union, among them Marshals Bagramian, Admiral
Isakov, Marshal Babajanian, Marshal Khudiakov were produced out of
these 600.000 soldiers and officers. In the first days of the war,
"PRAVDA" published an article titled: "The Armenian people - an active
participant of the Great Patriotic War".

At the same time, the Turkish Army, under implicit collaboration with
the Nazis, was concentrating on the Turkish-Soviet border,
awaiting the outcome of the battle of Stalingrad in 1942. In case of Soviet
defeat, the Turks were supposed to turn their neutrality favorable to Germany
into an open alliance and occupy the Transcaucasian republics.

In the Green Book of Gebbels, the instructions for the Nazi occupants
in Transcaucasia were given. Among them - an instruction to treat Armenians
as "effectively" as possible, as a nation which is least receptive to the 
ideas of Nazism.

Armenian Diaspora /those whom Young Turks did not manage to deal with
in 1915/

In France, when you have a chance, go and visit the monument to 
Misak Manushian, the leader of the French Resistance International group.
Maybe they will even show you the medals and rewards given to him
and other Armenian participants of the French resistance by General
Charles De Gaulle. Among them - the Legion D'Honeur-s of France,
the rewards of Poland, Romania, Bulgaria and others.

Maybe you will even hear about the tank column "Sasuntsi David",
provided by the Armenian Diaspora of the United States, Latin
America and other countries to the Red Army.

Thousands of facts I could tell you if were worth 1 minute of my time.
Or of the time of the netters who`s opinion about you and what you write
seems pretty stable.

Poor old Argic ... Tell you bosses: force can kill, force can lie,
force can find money to finance lies, force can outweight morality
in the Senate hearings, but force can not change the historical
records. You are working utterly to the favor of the opposite side:
you are creating a self-evident image of those people you finance
and support you.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com (Alex Goykhman)
Subject: Re: Independent Chuvashia II
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 16:02:32 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Chelmsford, MA

In article <1ds8nbINNd0f@agate.berkeley.edu> muh@physics.Berkeley.EDU (Yury M. Mukharsky) writes:
>In article <92316.175925U52539@uicvm.uic.edu> ---  BORYS  --- <U52539@uicvm.uic.edu> writes:
>>   The Chuvashans probably consider their culture under threat
>>   from the Russians (lets be honest here, our 'Great Russian' big brother
>
>I was under impression, that Chuvashans probably consider their
>culture to be same as Russian culture. In this field big brother
>does have pretty good track record.
>
>Yury 

    Chuvash's independence movement is about $$$, not culture.
    They simply want to control the republic's natural resources.




-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: all opinions are mine.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: arto@leland.Stanford.EDU (Artavazd Khachikian)
Subject: Re: The Greeks are indeed evil (:-)
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 92 21:01:43 GMT

In article <1deed2INNnbn@uwm.edu> craiga@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Craig R Albrechtson) writes:

>Hey pal what planet are you from, cant you FUCKING READ, this it 
>TALK.POLITICS.SOVIET, its bad enough we have to put up with 
>Mutlus endless stupid posts.  Why do we have to read about stuff that 
>has nothing to do with the Ex-soviet union.  What on earth made you think
>that this was a good idea putting this Greek stuff on talk.politics.soviet.
>
>Use you brain for a change, keep relevant posts on relevant newsgroups,  I'm 
>sure most you you out in net land would agree with me.
>
>[Flame off]

You, pal, listen to this carefully: if you put up with the Turkish crap
for all this year, then you will have to listen to the answers of those
people who are directly affected by it.

Freedom of speech .... Democracy...  You can be insulted - no one cares,
your nation and its wounds may be exposed to humiliation, no one cares,
but don't you dare to answer back - the audience gets bored. Tough shit!

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet,soc.culture.turkish
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: replies on citizenship and North American comparisons
Date: 8 Nov 92 11:18:53 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Tanel Tammet (tammet@cs.chalmers.se) writes:
>So, all in all, as you say: if they do not want to leave, they can
>and will stay. What is the problem here?
>...
>Well, again. I cannot understand the passage above - it seems to imply
>that some people in Riga are actually asked to leave for Russia. I am

Etc, there were similar question throughout Tanel's article.

You seem to have missed that I replied to the opinions of a certain
distasteful person in Canada, not the actual policy in effect in
Latvia which thankfully does not go the extremes Juris Mazuits asks
for.

It is worth to consider that as you point out:

>As for Latvia, the proposed more-than-ten-years waiting period
>is not yet enacted as a law - to my knowledge there is somewhy
>still no naturalization law in Latvia.

The discussion on how to deal with the Russian population in Latvia
is not yet settled, and while extremist opinion like the one of
Mazutis are not prevalent in the discussion, I don't like leaving
without opposition if they appear in the forums that I participate in.

As for the 16-year waiting period, I don't have many objections
against it as such, provided that it is counted from day of
settlement, not like in Estonia from some date in 1990.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Narva in the inter-war period
Date: 8 Nov 92 11:46:02 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Sergei Viznyuk have several times claimed here that Narva was
ethnically a Russian city since the Russians conquered it from
Sweden in the beginning of the 18th century.

However, this is not the case. Today Narva has a massive Russian
majority, 97% is the number usually quoted. But not so during the
inter-war period. In the 1930 edition of Nordisk Familjebok, a
Swedish encyclopedia, I found that the population for Narva in 1925
was around 26.000 whereof 7-8.000 were said to be Russians. There
were no numbers for any other groups, so NF does not prove that
Estonians were in majority in Narva at the time, although it is 
not unlikely.

(I'm sorry for the round numbers, but I only quickly glanced in
my neighbour's copy of NF while visiting for other reasons.)

In comparison we can note that that "Latvia's Narva", that is
Daugavpils (today 17% Latvian, 81% Russian) was not a very
Latvian city even in the interwar perion. According to Svensk
Uppslagsbok, a Swedish encyclopedia from 1950, Daugavpils had a
population of 45.000 in 1935 where one third was Latvian, one
fourth Jewish and the rest mainly Russian and Polish. Noticeable
is also that before WWI Daugavpils's population was as large as
110.000.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: arto@leland.Stanford.EDU (Artavazd Khachikian)
Subject: I regret it very much
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 23:50:48 GMT

In article <83425@ut-emx.uucp> vadim@bolvan.ph.utexas.edu (Vadim S. Kaplunovsky

>David, please do NOT read Russians for Chechens.
>Chechens are totally out of control.  Their leader Dudaev declared Chechenia
>to be independent and threatened nuclear terrorism if Russian try to impose
>military rule.  In short, he is about as crazy as they come, and while the
>Russian government may have difficulty getting rid of him, it definitly
>does not support his, and his followers' wild actions.
>
>In fact, blowing up the gas line was an anti-Russian act.  That Armenians
>were hurt even worse was incidental

Vadim, and others,

I regret very much that David Davidian wrote what he wrote. 
I would strongly, STRONGLY, recommend that while expressing
thoughts on this subject people	think first. David is not
from Armenia, and he may not know the situation in the CIS
well enough to distinguish between Chechens and Russians,
or the Chechen people and the Chechen state, or the president
of Chechnia, or the armed groups. I find his putting the sign
of equality between Russians and the people who blew up
the pipe utterly incompetent and silly. I would appreciate
if he refrains from this kind of comments, and from the
kind of comments he made about the cross and Dzershinskiy etc.
I regret that I have to say this.

I want also to make sure that everybody understands that
this kind of attitude is not even remotely close to the perceptions
of those who do have the right to represent the opinions
or attitudes of their country and their people.

A Russian plane blasted today in Tver, killing 23 people
trying to get supplies to besieged Armenia.
From: nadja@jetsun.weitek.COM (Nadja Adolf)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Eva Clayton bio
Date: 13 Nov 92 23:24:53 GMT
Organization: WEITEK Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <1992Nov12.135827.15925@rock.concert.net> bing@jazz.concert.net (Carter E. Bing) writes:
>In article <1992Nov11.190026.16431@dg-rtp.dg.com> meyers@leonardo.rtp.dg.com (Bill Meyers) writes:
>>I've set "Followup-To: talk.politics.guns" above,
>>and cross posted this reply to that group as well.
>
>>I live close enough to Durham that this is a personal concern for me,
>>and I'd _love_ to see something done -- or to help do it -- so that
>>Durhamites no longer rob each other at record rates, and shoot each
>>other for $1.00 (The Durham Sun, Saturday, October 6, 1990, p. 1-A).
>>I simply believe that it won't do any good, in fact it will do harm,
>>to (further) limit firearms ownership by honest people.
>>
>	There are racist implications in that paragraph which is
>common for residents living in the triangle area. The common
>myth is that because Durham is has a larger AA population it
>is "out of control". Raleigh has had bank hold-ups this year
>than a majority of cities in the area. In any city you can
>find people holding each other up for a number of foolish
>reasons. This has nothing to do with gun control but more to
>do with the socio-economics factors.  Things are being done in
>this city as well with the other cities in North Carolina. 

And I resent the racist assumption that disarming people of color stops
crime. I find it fascinating that those of us who are not 'Aryan' are
always the first ones disarmed.

The two places gun control started: banning ownership by free blacks, and
banning ownership by Native People.


-- 
The Earth Pig Bourne....

nadja@node.com (prefered email address)
nadja@weitek.com
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary)
Subject: Re: A thought on the comming gun bans
Keywords: To purchase, or not to purchase....
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 03:30:27 GMT

In article <PA142548.417.721409979@utkvm1.utk.edu> PA142548@utkvm1.utk.edu (T. Archer) writes:
>>Mostly becuase of the Fifth Amendment to our Constitution: "

>C'mon Frank:  if the congress critters are willing to ignore the protection 
>afforded us by the Second Amendment, why do you think they will pay any 
>attention to the Fifth?

No, but the Supreme Court probably would: They are willing to overturn
laws on Fifth Amendment grounds, even if they are reluctant to hear
Second Amendment cases.

                                                Frank Crary
                                                CU Boulder
From: smittie@beach.csulb.edu (Smittie)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Japanese exchange student killed in Louisiana...
Date: 12 Nov 92 20:44:46 GMT
	<BxIIxw.61x@ncifcrf.gov> <1992Nov12.073433.20071@adobe.com>
Organization: Cal State Long Beach


The following got posted to soc.culture.japan by mistake.

In article <1992Nov12.073433.20071@adobe.com> pngai@adobe.com (Phil Ngai) writes:

   Xref: beach.csulb.edu soc.culture.japan:15749 talk.politics.guns:34276
   Newsgroups: soc.culture.japan,talk.politics.guns
From: betz@gozer.idbsu.edu (Andrew Betz)
Subject: Re: Media Survey
Organization: SigSauer Fan Club 
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 03:43:07 GMT

In article <1d9kvlINN1ga@life.ai.mit.edu> MIT Presidential Information Service <Surveys@campaign92.org> writes:
>The Presidential Campaign Information Service is a non-partisan 
>service operated at M.I.T to make campaign information available,
>facilitate electronic discussion of the issues, and to study the 
>use of electronic mail as a component of a presidential campaign.
>
is it just me, or does anybody else find the fact that these
folks ignored the libertarians ironic? 

drew 
--
betz@gozer.idbsu.edu
*** brought into your terminal from the free state of idaho ***

Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: sjo@cci632.cci.com (Steve Owens)
Subject: A thought on the comming gun bans
Keywords: To purchase, or not to purchase....
Organization: Northern Telecom, Inc. - Network Application Systems
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 16:59:38 GMT


	I was in the gun shop last night, looking over an assortment
of EvilBabyKillingCrackCrazedAssaultWeapons, determining which I should 
buy before the upcomming bans, when a thought occurred to me:  Will the 
ban be on the purchase of certain firearms, or on the ownership of certain
firearms?  Think about it:  If I go out and spend $700+ dollars on an
HBAR, I could be out upwards of $700 (I seriously doubt the government
is going to give me more than $500 for it.)  If its a purchase ban,
I couldn't purchase it after a certain date, but at least I could still
own one that I buy now.  Of course, the government won't confiscate
them because it's against the Second, right?  :-)

	In any event, I decided to wait a little on the HBAR ($700+ is
a bit much to pay for a single rifle, IMHO.  I can buy multiple rifles in
other styles for the same amount of money.)  I really don't relish the
idea of losing $700 at the government's whim (the same can be said for
taxes, but that's a discussion for a different group.  :-)  Anyway,
it was food for thought.



				Cheers! (Yeah right)


						Steve


------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Read between the lines                             Steven J Owens @ CCI
 Criticize the words they're selling             (716) 482-5000 Ext 2867
 Think for yourself and feel the walls                 sjo@op632.cci.com
 Become sand beneath your feet." - Queensryche "Anybody Listening?"
From: blanch@hpcupt1.cup.hp.com (David Blanchard)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 21:42:08 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Sign seen at Bush rally
Organization: Hewlett Packard, Cupertino
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns

> here here, if that was the case then the government could refuse to allow
> news to be broadcast on the TV or radio, since the framers certainly could
> not have envisioned those inventions.  Ben F and Thomas J were much
> smarter than that.  They were aware that history allows people to improve
> technology.

This is an interesting comment because we censored TV and radio precisely 
because the gov't and their henchmen, the Supremes, contend that TV and
radio don't fall under the 1st amendment. This allows the FCC to control
content and operating licenses. 

Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: watt-alan@net.yale.edu (Alan Watt)
Subject: Re: Gun control laws proposed in Colorado
Originator: swatt@mickey.CS.Yale.Edu
Organization: Yale University, Computing & Information Systems
Distribution: talk
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 19:20:53 GMT


In article <1992Nov11.160043.18075@csi.jpl.nasa.gov>, mwette@csi.jpl.nasa.gov (Matt Wette) writes:

|> I think you've hit the nail on the head here.  Gun control legislation
|> is not so much a product of carefully considered social policy as it
|> is a kneejerk reaction to occasional violent incidents.
|> 
|> 	Brady incident =>
|> 		Brady Bill
|> 
|> 	Purdy incident =>
|> 		California waiting periods and "assalt" weapon ban
|> 
|> 	freeway shootings in LA  =>
|> 		restrictive auto carry laws
|> 
|> 	Killeen incident =>
|> 		some legislation suggested
|> 		(I've even heard of a push for carry permits.)
|> 
|> Any others?
|> 
|> I think this is why many people fear gun-control proponents so much.
|> Gun control is motivated more by emotion than reason.

Wrong.  Gun control is *justified in debate* more by emotion than reason.
The question of motivation tends to make me a whole lot more cynical.
-- 
  Alan S. Watt
  Yale University			Computing and Information Systems
  Box 2112 Yale Station			(203) 432-6602
  New Haven, CT  06520-2112		Watt-Alan@Yale.Edu