HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: wsadjw@rw7.urc.tue.nl (Jan Willem Nienhuys)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: homeopaty... NBC's dateline
Date: 15 Dec 92 14:44:56 GMT
Reply-To: wsadjw@urc.tue.nl
Organization: Eindhoven University of Technology, The Netherlands

In article <1992Dec14.165647.1043@donner.SanDiego.NCR.COM> kraus@cheers.SanDiego.NCR.COM (Dave Kraus) writes:
>
>Is there actually some guidleline that states that in order to be considered
>homeopathic, a substance must be diluted to a strength of x%? If so,
>what is x? Does anybody know?

No there isn't.  For the homeopath the number of steps in a dilution 
process is more important than the actual dilution factor.

>
>Arnica is prescribed by homeopathics as a homeopathic substance and is diluted
>to a solution of 8% (external form).

Apparently you've met a socalled "complex-homeopath", which is actually
a different brand from the classical homeopath.  The C.H. violates the
dictums of good old Hahnemann at almost every step, but has in common that
he or she uses prescriptions for which there isn't a shred of reliable
evidence of effectivity.

>
>It seems to me that the more important idea to focus on is the way in which
>a homeopathic substance theoretically remedies an ailment. If the substance
>irritates the body into defending itself, and thus indirectly attacking
>the ailment, the dilution strength should only be considered when insuring
>that the substance is weak enough not to cause the patient problems. It
>seems that dilution strengths would vary widely depending on the substance.

There are to my latest information 23 different "explanations" for the
way homeopathy is supposed to work.  The more fancy ones use New Age
physics (you know the holistic Capra kind).  This vaguely immunological
explanation only exists in the minds of the homeopaths. There isn't a shred
of evidence that all these explications amount to more than hot air.

There are explications for the enthusiastic reports on the effects 
of high dilutions (e.g. coffee diluted 10^20 times for sleeplessness).
(1) Any "wonder treatment" will attract patients that enthousiastically
    endorse it.  The power of suggestion of the healer can make patients
    who actually are just as sick as before report that they feel much
    better.
(2) Classical homeopaths talk a lot to their clients. Having someone 
    talk for an hour on all the details of your physical well being
    can be very agreeable to a patient.  Finally someone who listens!
(3) Some people really improve in an objective way when they know that
    they are being treated.

JWN
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.folklore.urban
Subject: Re: Ritual Abuse Taskforce Alleges Poisoning
Date: 17 Dec 92 15:35:37 GMT
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Followup-To: sci.skeptic
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs

In <1992Dec16.174708.10837@netcom.com> sheaffer@netcom.com (Robert Sheaffer) writes:

> I'd like to find out more about this - it sounds marvellous! What is the
> source for this? I suspect that the chiropractors may have performed
> their OWN "laboratory tests": something like "See how easy it is to
> pull down their arm? They MUST have been poisoned!!!!!!"

But how did they rule out the possibility that the patients might have
been listening to rock music (which as we all know also has this
effect)?

Warren "Read it in the New York Post, it must be true" Burstein
-- 
/|/-\/-\       In real life, the Vice President chastises Murphey Brown
 |__/__/_/     for her morals.  Bill Clinton plays the sax on "Arsenio
 |warren@      Hall."  Though "Batman Returns" is fiction, it's not too
/ nysernet.org much stranger than truth - Caryn James, The New York Times
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: J024330@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM
Subject: Re: Who Am I?
Organization: Lockheed Missiles & Space Company, Inc.
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 17:12:30 GMT

You are you.  Next question?

Chris C.
><IXOYE>
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.news-media,talk.bizarre
From: mike@elec.canterbury.ac.nz (Cosmik Debris)
Subject: Re: IdEAL ORDER Psychic TV on January Sabattical - Thursdays CBS News Za
Organization: Electrical Engineering, University of Canterbury, New Zealand
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 03:58:56 GMT

In article <u4TXVB2w165w@dorsai.com>, idealord@dorsai.com (Jeff Harrington) writes:
> The Thursday CBS Evening News Zap will be discontinued for the month of 
> January.
... 
> Jeff Harrington        IdEAL ORDER - Curious? - Write for a text file -
                                       ^^^^^^^^
                                         NO!
-- 
Cosmik Debris -- "I owe money, therefore I am"
From: schumach@convex.com (Richard A. Schumacher)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: On God and Science
Date: 17 Dec 92 02:43:27 GMT
Article-I.D.: convex.schumach.724560207
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

Never mind god and science: Tell us something about god and mathematics,
namely the "Vedic mathematics" which radical Hindoos intend as a replacement
for that nasty heretical Muslim invention, algebra.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Follow Kalki, and have an Ayodhya on every street in America!
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu (Robert McGrath)
Subject: Re: Uri's Magic
Reply-To: mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept of Computer Science
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 18:11:34 GMT

In article <bgm21+r@rpi.edu>, gallas2@bray1a.its.rpi.edu (Sean Michael Gallagher) writes:
|> In article <3062@israel.nysernet.org>, warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein) writes:
|> |>     "They invited me to come quickly to NASA's control center.  They have
|> |>     a problem with the space probe Galileo, which was sent to Jupiter.  It
|> |>     cost the a lot of money, has already traveled millions of kilometers,
|> |>     but its antenna has not opened.  They called me, and I will try to
|> |>     help them.  I will stand in the control center, I will concentrate,
|> |>     and by means of my mental power, I will try to open the antenna.
|> |> 
|> |>     "The Americans have a practical approach.  They have already tried
|> |>     everything else and failed.  So one of the senators connected to the
|> |>     space project has now turned to me..  What do they have to lose?  If I
|> |>     succeed, I will save a mission worth billions.  If I fail - nothing
|> |>     has been lost.  How much would they have invested?  In all, an airline
|> |>     ticket, a few days in a hotel, and some money for my time."
|> |> -- 
|> 
|> I really hope this isn't true.  

If you read it carefully, you will see that some of this is in the past
tense, and most is in the future tense.  Assuming that this scenario
has not actually happened, the comment may be a carelessly phrased wish
on the part of UG.  Wishes themselves are neither true nor false,
and UG may well have had such a wish.

-- 
  Robert E. McGrath
  Urbana Illinois
  mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu
From: wsadjw@rw7.urc.tue.nl (Jan Willem Nienhuys)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: homeopaty... NBC's dateline
Date: 18 Dec 92 11:23:01 GMT
Reply-To: wsadjw@urc.tue.nl
Organization: Eindhoven University of Technology, The Netherlands

In article <1go9tcINNik@gap.caltech.edu> carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Carl J Lydick) writes:
>
>The basis of homeopathy is to find a substance which, in sufficiently large
>doses, would produce EXACTLY the same symptoms as the disease being treated.
>Now you're saying that the symptoms should be slightly different.

But it should be kept in mind that EXACTLY goes a long way. 
In the first place the profession and constitution of the person to be 
treated (ptbt) must also be similar (not identical) to the test person (tp)
on whom the drug was tested.  Whether the pain is on the left or on the
right, whether it is worse in the evening or in the morning, on the seaside
or in the mountains: it all counts.  Also what counts is the metaphorical
way the ptbt expresses his/her complaint: "a cough that feels like a worm
is wiggling back and forth in the throat"  is for instance a very important
symptom, which points almost certainly to Bryonia as the best cure.
Typical symptoms are "unremembered dreams", "itchy feeling on the outside
of the rtight hand", "romantic feelings in moonlight",  and when a woman
complains of anything, "irregular menses" are part of the constitution,
and hence a determinant of the cure to be chosen. But also whether she
likes beer or wine more and whether she can stand heat or cold better.

So in practice (homeopathic practice, that is), no cure can be found
that produces ALL symptoms (even though thousands of "symptoms" may
be associated with a single cure like Natrium Muriaticum (kitchen salt,
diluted 10^30 times)).  So the homeopath will try to find the
"simillimum" = most similar cure.  This involves a lot of studying
in very thick books, which often impresses the patient a lot.  And if
the cure doesn't work, the simillimum wasn't similar enough, so something
else should be tried.  Giving the wrong cure (all in the homeopathic
point of view) is very bad, because it will cause extra complaints.

There's a kind of Boolean logic behind this: a+b=0 if and only if a=b.
And after 200 years of attacks, the system is waterproofed against
any experimental verification.

JWN
From: sheaffer@netcom.com (Robert Sheaffer)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Crucifixion of Jesus?
Date: 15 Dec 92 00:27:57 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <1992Dec14.034645.791@hfsi.uucp> ata@hfsi.UUCP (John Ata - FSO) writes:
>
>Robert, Robert, Robert...again your logic escapes me.  When it
>suits your purpose, you have so much delight expounding the
>*differences* in the different Gospels suggesting that this author
>purposely misheld information to make their point, etc, etc.
>Then, when it is pointed out that all 4 Gospels agree on some
>point, you poo pah that by saying that two were derived from the
>third.  You cannot have it both ways.  If in your mind, the
>differences in the Gospels take away from their authenticity, then
>the likeness in the Gospels must add to their authenticity.

When a later author copies an earlier one more or less exactly, it
neither adds nor subtracts from the earlier account, although it
does give the original a sort of "vote of confidence." Nonetheless,
it is NOT an independent source.

But when a later author copies an earlier one in nearly all aspects,
changing a few particulars, THEN those particulars become extremely
important, as they were perceived at the time of the second author
as "problems" in the original story. Such as: the youth who fled
naked in the garden, Pilate's surprise at how quickly Jesus died,
Jesus being called "the son of Mary" (which implies an illegitimate
paternity), Jesus needing to be baptised, etc.
>
>The 1 Thessalonian letter is basically a short one (1950 words) with a specific
>purpose in mind.  What logical reason do you have for Paul to have mentioned
>the crucifixion in that letter specifically?

 Arguably, you could be right, there *might* have been no need to mention
 the cross - although we see that by the time he wrote 1 Corinthians,
 Paul had become positively *obsessed* with "the cross." The significance
 of this matter is that 1 Thess. 2:15 quite plainly blames the JEWS, not
 the Romans, for executing Jesus. This implies that, when it was written
 (c. 48) Paul had in mind a Jewish, not a Roman, execution.
-- 
  
        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - sheaffer@netcom.com
  
 Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!


     "Mystical explanations are considered deep. The truth is that
      they are not even superficial."

                   - Friedrich Nietzsche    (The Gay Science: 126)
From: kring@efes.physik.uni-kl.de (Thomas Kettenring)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Summary of the whole Dogon thing in LaTeX
Date: 15 Dec 92 18:15:03 GMT
Organization: FB Physik, Universitaet Kaiserslautern, Germany

I'm a bit late in pointing this out, but...

In article <BzB5J6.M7y@dcs.ed.ac.uk>, pdc@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Paul Crowley) writes:
>\fromfield{Scott C DeLancey}{delancey@darkwing.uoregon.edu}
>[..] my vague memory is that the striking coincidence in the story is
>that the Dogon attribute to Sirius, which is a deity, a dark twin.  If
>that's all there is to it (if there's more, sorry, I didn't check my
>facts) then I'm not sure that the coincidence is all that striking.
>Lots of deities around the world are associated with celestial objects,
>and lots and lots of deities around the world have twins.

Another factor:
Lots and lots of stars are double or multiple; isn't it more than half of
them?

--
thomas kettenring, 3 dan, kaiserslautern, germany
"Every three months I tell all of the new recruits that they are supposed to
stand here and not there to get their uniforms, but they just don't learn!"
From: swf@tools3teradata.com (Stan Friesen)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Hypnosis and Repression (was Ritual Abuse Taskforce....)
Keywords: Interzone
Date: 15 Dec 92 02:24:54 GMT
Followup-To: sci.skeptic,alt.folklore.urban,alt.atheism,alt.feminism
Distribution: world
Organization: NCR Teradata Database Business Unit

In article <rlewis.724193757@muskwa.ucs.ualberta.ca>, rlewis@muskwa.ucs.ualberta.ca (Robert Lewis) writes:
|> 
|> 1)  Is there any 'objective' evidence for the repression of horrific
|> memories?  I wonder about this because it seems that only certain sorts
|> of events (like ritual abuse) come up in the context of such repression
|> whereas others, such as having been in a concentration camp (which
|> surely is at least as horrific) never do. ...

My impression is that some level of repression is fairly well attested for cases
of severe trauma during childhood.  A friend of mine even seems to have suffered
from this (thought the event is not yet verified).  Also, I suspect my mother
of having repressed certain memories (due to the fact that she claims far less
memory of certain matters than is normal).

Now, repression of memories of events during adulthood is a more problematic
matter.

I suspect that many of the *children* that were in Nazi camps may well have
supressed the memories.
|> 
|> 2)  Assuming that there is the repression of memory (or even just that
|> we are dealing with the normal process of forgetting) is there any 
|> evidence that hypnosis can somehow help in 'retreiving' such memories.

Perhaps, to a very limited degree.  Unfortunately, hypnotic regression also
has a strong tendency to *create* memories of events that never occured.

Thus hypnotically induced memories must always be suspect unless independently
verified.

If this is indeed the *main* source for evidence of Satanic rituals, I would
say it is pretty much pure crapola.

-- 
sarima@teradata.com			(formerly tdatirv!sarima)
  or
Stanley.Friesen@ElSegundoCA.ncr.com
From: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Ball lightning? (is there such a thing?)
Date: 21 Dec 1992 00:21:56 GMT
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
Distribution: world
Reply-To: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <1992Dec20.163951.15978@ryn.mro4.dec.com>, pierson@cimcad.enet.dec.com (Dave Pierson) writes:
>	On color.  Reports cover all many, going on most colors.  TO say it is
>	the "wrong" color is to disregard the reports.

The statement was that the various colors reported for ball ligthing are at
variance with an explanation of "plasma balls."  Now, while it's true that a
plasma is hot, that does NOT mean you can predict what color it's going to be.
Simple demonstration:
	1)  Create a plasma (the easiest way to do this is by lighting a fire);
	2)  Observe the color of the plasma;
	3)  Drop some table salt into the plasma and observe the color;
	4)  Drop some powdered copper into the plasma and observe the color;
Conclusion:  Plasmas can some in just about any color.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CARL@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: zellner@stsci.edu
Subject: Re: Miracles
Organization: Space Telescope Science Institute
Distribution: world,na
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 00:07:14 GMT

> =    ...       We believe that God, not man, makes the rules concerning
> =virtue and vice, even as he made the laws of physics.  What would you
> =think of someone who made up laws of physics by pondering the alternatives
> =and deciding for themselves what would be good or bad?
> 
> I'd say they were doing good experimental science.  As opposed to the old
> technique of looking up what Aristotle had to say on the matter.

I take your point.  From an astronomer's point of view, however, experimental
astronomy is often hard to do.  So is experimental theology.

Ben
From: nichael@bbn.com (Nichael Cramer)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Biblical Inerrancy?
Date: 15 Dec 92 19:53:52 GMT
Reply-To: ncramer@bbn.com
Organization: BBN, Cambridge MA
NNTP-Posting-Host: kariba.bbn.com
In-reply-to: m23364@mwunix's message of 15 Dec 92 15:29:31 GMT

In article <1992Dec15.152931.16426@linus.mitre.org> m23364@mwunix (James Meritt) writes:

   In article <723869794.AA08733@csource.oz.au> joe@csource.oz.au (Joe Slater) writes:
   }Tuesday December 01 1992, James Meritt writes to All:
   }
   }JM> That's nice.  Do you think that God thought in Arabic, King James's
   }JM> English, or any other mortal tongue?  And if not, wouldn't ANYTHING
   }JM> that is codefied suffer the same "change and loss of meaning"?
   }
   }Obviously the Divine Language is Hebrew. This can be easily demonstrated by the
   }fact that Adam spoke it before languages were divided, as recorded in the
   }Bible. I have no doubt that this argument will immediately win hearts and minds
   }in this newsgroup.

   No, that is Adam's language (hack hack hack).  What did God think in before
   Adam?  You know - what was "LET THERE BE LIGHT!" expressed as?

(setq *LIGHT-P* t)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: dlb@fanny.wash.inmet.com (David Barton)
Subject: Re: Hypnosis and Repression (was Ritual Abuse Taskforce....)
Organization: Intermetrics Inc., Washington Division, USA
	<BzD93F.Jur@cs.uiuc.edu>
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 19:36:16 GMT

I have stayed out of this for, perhaps, too long; however, it seemed
most people's minds were made up.  Perhaps not.

In article <BzD93F.Jur@cs.uiuc.edu> mcgrath@cs.uiuc.edu (Robert
McGrath) writes:

   When one is hypnotized or otherwise put in a state of relaxation,
   and especially when motivated to "remember", one may recall lots of
   stuff.  The problem is that these memories are a combination of
   memories of things that really happened, things similar to things
   that really happened, things that logically could or should have
   happened, and so on.  Without knowledge of the actual events, it is
   usually impossible to untangle the original event from the
   reconstruction and inferences.

   In situations with strong "demand characteristics", that is where
   there is a definite social goal that is important, the recollection
   process may be highly influenced by this goal.  Incompetent
   hypnotists may produce false recollections by feeding the subject
   hints about the "right answer", which can strongly influence the
   reconstruction of memories.  The really bad news is that once such
   a recollection has been constructed, it often cannot be
   distinguished from a real memory by the person.  Thus, cloddy
   hypnotists can not only lead the subject's answer, they can
   actually create false memories.  This is, in fact, what Budd
   Hopkins and co-workers are doing to their abduction victims.

This is, fortunately or unfortunately, also a characteristic of
memories in general.  Recent experiments on the reliability of
eye-witness testimony have cast a fairly large amount of doubt about
what *anyone* remembers, particularly concerning situations with
"strong demand characteristics".  Such conflicts are even televised;
we might point to the Clarence Thomas hearings as an example.

There is a fair amount of evidence that hypnotic memories (memories
recovered with the aid of hypnosis) can indeed be influenced by the
language and requests of the hypnotist.  I know of no evidence that
this happens to a greater extent than with any memory elicited in
conversation, in response to prompting.

All of which says absolutely nothing, positive or negative, about Budd
Hopkins particular antics (of course, the choice of noun does say
something negative).

					Dave Barton
					dlb@hudson.wash.inmet.com

Newsgroups: sci.skeptic
From: rdnelson@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Roger D. Nelson)
Subject: Re: lost skills of the ancients (was pyramids)
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 13:55:43 GMT

In article <1gbajrINNhvf@fido.asd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
>In article <Bz4A67.E71.2@cs.cmu.edu>, lindsay+@cs.cmu.edu (Donald Lindsay) writes:
>|> 
>|> I've heard claims that the classic violins have improved with age,
>|> and even a claim that the improvement was due to being played well.
>|> Obviously, modern replicas would have trouble on this point.
>
>Along similar lines, the varnish used on old masters changes slowly
>with time, and when it's cleaned off and replaced, we hear howls
>of outrage.    The current notion of artistic excellence seems
>to be conditioned by whatever the current state is of works of art
>traditionally thought to be excellent.
>
>jon.

I'm slightly inclined to agree with Jon's apparently cynical view of artistic
expertise and yet, though not much inclined to personal experience as
evidence, it leads me to be cautious especially when the questions are
outside my own areas of expertise.

I came late to a concert of a prominent string quartet (Cleveland?) and
was immediately enchanted and _enthralled_ by the rich and beautiful
textures of their sound.  When I got my breath again, at intermission, I 
read the program and in the notes discovered the quartet were playing a
"matched" set of Stradivarius instruments.  I can't be sure how much my
sensory (I could say sensual) experience was created from the qualities
of those instruments, but it was a splendid concert.  

While I'm thinking about it, let me comment further and more generally,
using the example of good tools.  When a craftsman has a fine, balanced
and sharpened tool, he goes to the workpiece directly, and goes with 
confidence, and inspiration from appreciation of practical beauty (the latter
at an unconscious level most often) as firm ground on which he can rely.
This assures that creative energies are not only stimulated or released,
but are given the best possible vehicle.  The general point I want to
make is that beyond the "scientific facts" we can extract from the world
we observe, there is a great deal of subtlety that we can appreciate
(if we learn something about the territory, and allow ourselves)
though we haven't any measures or proofs of existence.   

Roger
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic