From: sphanda@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (surinder.phanda)
Subject: Re: WITHER PATRIOTISM ?
Summary: ...More about India
Organization: AT&T
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 10:01:24 GMT

In article <1992Oct9.114135.1@uwovax.uwo.ca>, rpsingh@uwovax.uwo.ca writes:
> In article <1992Oct9.123451.15698@cbfsb.cb.att.com>, sphanda@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (surinder.phanda) writes:
> > In article <1992Oct8.223436.19533@news.clarkson.edu>, rajat@sunny1.che.clarkson.edu (Rajat Kapoor) writes:
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Nothing can be more tormenting for me than the statement:
> >> 
> >> "... given the social conditions in India, I'll never go back... "
> > 
> > Would you?? The fact is, a lot of Indians do actually choose not to 
> > go back.....
> That choice itself is questionable, and raises doubts about their patriotism.
> Indians choose to live here not because of the social conditions rather for
> the luxury. Do you think one enjoys being treated as a second rate citizen,
> called upon by derogatory names in the streets just because it's thier
> country??
> > 
> >> 

What about all the minority Indians (harijans, muslims, sikhs) that get 
treated as second class citizens in their own country - India?? 

[stuff deleted]

> >> 
> >> It is fine ( and healthy ) to question our social
> >> values, criticize and deplore evils... but to slander and 
> >> malign the country as inhospitable, is a terrible thing to do...
> > 
> > To some it does appear inhospitable - you have to accept that.
> 
> Accepting weaknesses and evils of one's society/country doesn't help
> to rectify it. It would neither go away by quitting the country. We, who
> have seen the world have a clearer perception of a cohesive society and
> the burden of transforming our society/country ought to be our moral duty.
>  

Are you suggesting we bury our heads in the sand and pretend there are 
no evil problems in Indian society? If we do have a clearer vision of
a cohesive society, why has not a trickle of that cohesion precipitated 
into Indian society? Most Indians are only too releived to get away 
from the problems of India - and who can blame them?
India needs a political and social revolution on an unimaginable scale.
Small steps, and good intentions are a total waste, and have clearly
not worked .


> >> 
> >> No self-respecting native can ever stab a country like that !
> > 
> > Why ever not?? Just because you are a native of a particular country
> > does not mean hard hitting truthful facts about it cannot be raised....
> > Take off the rose tinted glasses please!
> 
> Because it is immoral. If oyu wish to raise these so called truthful facts
> go back to India. What good would you achieve by doing that in a foreign
> country?? The only thing that you would do is to give everyone an indication
> of how selfish, self-centered  and unpatriotic individuals we are. 
> >> 

Come out of the sand and acknowledge the facts. We are selfish, self-centered
and unpatriotic! Why else would be living in other countries?


> >> If one were to read between the lines of the utterings of such
> >> believers, the message is "India and those who choose to live
> >> there are damned... doomed to live in a cesspool of misery...! "
> > 
> > Well, are'nt they?? The MAJORITY (who do not have the comforts or haven
> > of a Western country) do live in a "cesspool of misery". They don't
> > have the luxury of making tough decisons about which private school
> > to send their kids.... or whether to change jobs and move into 
> > another (luxury) home....etc.. 
> 
> So it all boils down to luxury in each and every aspect of life! Well, I 
> wonder if everyone who fought for the independence of our country had the
> same ideals that you have, what would have happened to you?? 
> 

So what did we achieve after independence? By getting rid of one oppressor,
the people have been enslaved by successive power hungry governments.
To this day, Indians do not have the "luxury" of a constant power supplies, 
or education for the masses. There are four times as many poor people in
India than in China. They are forced to stoop to unthinkable levels
to make just a little money, such as selling their kidneys, or kids, or
dangerous jobs like being exposed to excessivley high levels of radiation.
You're right. I don't have the same ideals of independence.

[stuff deleted]


> >> 
> >> US is a foster country, made great by people who adopted it. The first
> >> generation immigrants never abondoned their country, they revered it.
> > 
> > The U.S has always been considered a country of opportunity. It's where
> > a lot immigrants dreams came true, and continue to come true....
> > People did'nt abandon it because it did so much for them. Unfortunatley
> > the same is not true of India. Just look at the lines of people at
> > foreign embassies waiting to get out .....
> 
> It's true for the US but not for India?? You got your basic education there,
> you got a fairly intelligent way of thinking, It made you realize about the
> weaknesses that we have as a country and then ....you abandoned the country
> never to return. How pathetic!!
>  

Yes of course it's true. As I said to the previous poster, take off
the rose tinted glasses. The mere fact that Indians (at the first opportunity)
choose to live anywhere but in India poses the question "what HAS India
done for them"? 

> >> 
> >> On a personal side, I'll never take a woman who disvows her native
> >> land as my wife. Can't be trusted in life...
> > 
> > So you want an obedient woman that agrees with everything you say
> > and "knows her place" - typical!
> 
> Not what he says. One who is atleast loyal to her country and feels proud to
> be an Indian. I remember reading somewhere about Gandhi, the writer says
> something to this affect:
> The trouble with most of us is that we associate our interests with our own
> well being. Some with a bigger subset, their family.....and so on. 
> Gandhiji associated himself with the biggest subset of all  ..HUMANITY. In that
> sense, perhaps he was more evolved than any one of us.
> 

You're confusing criticism with loyality. This is'nt some litmus test
where you can only be one or the other.

Surinder Phanda


> Regards,
> Ravi.
> 
> >> 
> >> Rajat Kapoor 
> > 
> > Ms Surinder Phanda
> >    AT&T Network Systems UK Ltd
> >    Malmesbury.
> -- 
> 
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