HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: KARLIN@BNLCL6.BNL.GOV (P.L. Cowan)
Subject: Stalingrad (was Re: The most decisive battle in history)
Organization: BROOKHAVEN NATIONAL LABORATORY
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 15:15:19 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.23

In <1992Sep14.142317.4973@ecl.psu.edu> clf@ecl.psu.edu writes:

: In article <1992Sep10.173223.1@acad3.alaska.edu>, fsjfz@acad3.alaska.edu writes:
: 	When I proposed the battle of Stalingrad as most decisive battle in
: recent history I did so with the assumption that the Wehrmacht followed up the
: conquest of the city with the conquest of the oil rich regions to the south.
--------------- Stuff deleted ----------------
: 
: 	Hitler's war machine ran on oil and the Fuhrer was ALWAYS paranoid
: about his oil supply (Romania).  
: 
: 	So, I still think that had the city of Stalingrad been taken the
: opportunity for the Wehrmacht to sieze oil regions to the south would have
: had it the most decisive battle in Europe during WWII.
: 
: SS

I am certainly no expert, but as I recall Hitler's generals recommended
by-passing Stalingrad altogether and moving directly on the Caucasus.
Hitler supposedly overruled them because he was fixated on the name of 
the city. If this was the case Stalingrad was more along the lines of 
an incredible blunder than a decisive battle (i.e. it was not a necessary
step toward achieving Germany's strategic objective as you imply).


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
P. L. Cowan     Please send replies, comments etc. (no flames thank you) to 
COWAN@ANL.GOV   (I'm posting this from a friend's account)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Xref: sparky alt.war:1933 soc.history:8236
From: fsjfz@acad3.alaska.edu
Newsgroups: alt.war
Subject: Re: The most decisive battle in history ?
Date: 11 Sep 92 19:08:02 GMT
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks

In article <14120@chalmers.se>, d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell) writes:
>   Despite the propagandistic stapns, did they really plan to take India the
> hard way, or did they expect to get it as a part of a Brittish surrender?
> 
>>James Zuelow
> 
> -bertil-
> --
 From what i remember, there was actually a plan written up to meet the
Japanese there.  i also remember seeing references to a Whermacht white paper
on the subject.  The Germans were going on the assumption that even if London
fell, that the colonies would continue the war on their own (London is a long
way from Ottowa, Delhi, Canberra, etc.).  Therefore, they would have to fight
British troops in India.  I think they did hope for local Indian support to
help exchange one set of colonial administrators for another, however.
 i'm doing a paper on a (distantly) related subject this term, and i will be
looking at a lot of the original (well, copies of the original!) documents.  IF
i find a specific reference, i will post.

James Zuelow
FSJFZF@acad3.alaska.edu
From: tedrick@bongo.Berkeley.EDU (Tom Tedrick)
Newsgroups: alt.war
Subject: Re: A battle for oil (was Re: The most decisive battle in history ?)
Date: 15 Sep 1992 02:28:06 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: bongo.berkeley.edu

<I have a map of the Middle East on the wall here.  Getting from
<the steppes into India would have been a hellish excercise.
<Northern Turkey and Iran are extremely mountainous, as is
<Afghanistan.  Defending those mountain passes against an
<armoured attack would exact a heavy toll on the attackers.  Even
<the Russians came unstuck in the Hindu Kush and the Pamirs.
<Logistic lines would have been constricted and horribly vulnerable.

There was a nice "satellite picture zoom through" that area on
the PBS show  "The Shape of the World". Getting through those
mountains looks like an hellacious problem. Wish I had a nice
3-D map. The mountains explain a lot about war and politics
in the region.

Newsgroups: alt.war
From: fsjfz@acad3.alaska.edu
Subject: Re: The most decisive battle in history ?
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 22:41:26 GMT

In article <BuG0J8.EKL@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>, jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Larry Jewell) writes:
>   Are there any references that Chandra Bose had any conferences with the 
> Germans?  Were they expecting an uprising against the British through
> pure propaganda or did they have a "fifth column" (mostly like rather small?)
> working in the subcontinent?
> 
>>James Zuelow
>>FSJFZ@acad3.alaska.edu
> 
> Larry J
> 
> -- 
> #L.W. Jewell Moderator at the Veterans Information Site (veteran@cc.purdue.edu)#

 This is rapidly getting much too esoteric for me.  i'm an amateur historian at
best, and don't know for sure the answer to your question.
 i would guess that the Germans managed to scrape up some dissatisfied Indians
to talk to (they seemed to like to listen to anyone, as long as that anyone
would say nice things about Germany).  i do not know if they actually talked
publicly to any major Indian leaders.  There was probably an Indian SS
``Regiment'' somewhere that was used for propaganda purposes, with the ranking
officer claimed by the Germans to represent a sizeable proportion of the
population of Germany.
  The Germans probably expected the Indian population to rise up when German
troops pushed across the border.  The British probably expected the opposite to
happen.  Reality would most likely have been in between somewhere, given the
fractious nature of Indian politics.
  Whether or not the Germans maintained an intelligence set-up in India i don't
know.  The Abwher could be brilliant when it wanted to, so i think it's
possible.  But as i said in my last post: if i find anything concrete in my
other research, i'll post it.
 
James Zuelow
FSJFZ@acad3.alaska.edu
Newsgroups: alt.war
From: rao@moose.cccs.umn.edu (Rao V. Akella)
Subject: Re: The most decisive battle in history ?
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Reply-To: rao@moose.cccs.umn.edu
Organization: Colon Cancer Control Study, University of Minnesota, Minneapolis
X-Lunar-Date: 5 days, 2 hrs, 20 mins until the last quarter of the moon (U.T.)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 22:55:00 GMT

In article <BuFzFC.CAo@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>, jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Larry Jewell) writes:
>  
>   Are there any references that Chandra Bose had any conferences with the 
> Germans?  Were they expecting an uprising against the British through
> pure propaganda or did they have a "fifth column" (mostly like rather small?)
> working in the subcontinent?

Being an Indian, I guess I should be able to throw some more light on this
topic (but not much -- for some reason, rehashing wars is not a popular pastime
in India, the way it is here in the West).

From what I remember, Netaji Subhas Chandra Bose represented a tiny but radical
faction in Indian politics during the struggle for Independence.  He believed
that violence was an acceptable form of resistance, as opposed to the
non-violence preached by Gandhi.  I get the impression that because of his
rightist views, he was left/kept out of the mainstream of politics.

Acting on the philosophy that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend," Bose went
shopping both to Japan and Germany for support in overthrowing the British.  I
remember reading somewhere that he travelled by submarine, and he did meet
Hitler, though it's doubtful how far he got with him.

Bose's stature in India today is slightly fuzzy.  All people honor him as a
freedom-fighter, while glossing over the fact that he was on the "wrong" side.

As for German influence in pre-independence India, I've never heard of any.
Sure, they would've found some crack-pot supporters (Bose wasn't the only one
who believed in violence as a means to freedom), but the Gandhi/Nehru
leadership of the Congress Party (which led India's freedom struggle) was
fairly intelligent and sensible (at that time); I don't think they ever
seriously considered exchanging one set of masters for another.  India was
fighting for self-rule at the time, not for get-rid-of-the-Brits-at-any-cost.

On the other hand, my own knowledge of these matters is abysmal (even though
I'm the first generation in my family to be born Free), so if anyone feels like
they know better, feel free to contradict me.  I could stand to learn some more.

-- Rao Akella    <rao@moose.cccs.umn.edu, rao%moose@umnacvx.bitnet>
From: vvirrank@cc.Helsinki.FI (Ville Virrankoski)
Newsgroups: alt.war
Subject: Re: Looking for history of religious wars
Date: 15 Sep 92 07:48:38 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki, Finland
X-Reader: GNUS 3.13

In article <1992Sep14.202101.2345@nntp.hut.fi> c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen) writes:
>In article <lb7a0bINNe28@jethro.Corp.Sun.COM> tmhoff@oogoody.Corp.Sun.COM writes:
>>I'm interested in a history of wars fought primarily for religious
>>reasons. I realize its hard to separate politics and religion
>>but you get the idea. 
>>
>>What were the worst religious wars in history?
>
>The Crusades, especially the Reconquista: 800 years, 3000 battles

It was longest and had most battles, but was it worst?
And how you define religious war?

How about Greek/Byzantium vs. Arab/Turk wars?
From: barroux@licancabur.Corp.Sun.COM (Juan Carlos Barroux - CS Eng. - Latin America)
Newsgroups: alt.war
Subject: Re: The most decisive battle in history ?
Date: 5 Sep 1992 03:24:47 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: barroux@licancabur.Corp.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: licancabur.corp.sun.com


  Well, I think that the battle of Mexico, (Tenochtitlan - 1520) which
lasted for 80 days, is one of the most important ones of the history,
since it marks the end of one of the big human empires of story.

  Speaking for himself,

  Juan Carlos
Newsgroups: alt.war
From: liuyh@vis.toronto.edu (Yuanhui Liu)
Subject: Re: Chinese buy Russian Carrier & Arms sale to Iran
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Toronto
Date: 9 Sep 92 21:47:56 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.181709.16004@ccu.umanitoba.ca> youngs@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Scott D. Young) writes:
>
>   Anyone know how close to operational the new PRC Carrier is?  I imagine that
>   it won't be useful for *quite* a while, especially considering all the talk
>   about the complications of learning carrier ops.  I will be interested to 
>   see how many missle subs North Korea buys to counter it.
>
>   Scott

The damn carrier is not even finished building yet...never mind the
complications of learning carrier ops.  

Don't worry about the North Kroeans, they won't have any money to buy
more subs, and North Korea points missles at China, are they crazy?
not only Chinese saved their butts during the Korean war, but China
is their last ally and supporter, that's why they didn't even
publiclly criticize China for setting diplomatic ties with South Korea,
who do you think they will get bargain priced fuel and food if
they break up with China?  Besides, it's unlikely Kim the dictator
would do anything against China, he even stayed neutral when USSR
and China were crossing swords against each other.  Hard to say
if the place will explode once old Kim goes to see Karl Marx though.  




Newsgroups: alt.war
From: jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Larry Jewell)
Subject: Re: The most decisive battle in history ?
Organization: Purdue University
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 02:06:43 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.173223.1@acad3.alaska.edu> fsjfz@acad3.alaska.edu writes:
[section delted]
> As a side, you should take a look at the occupied India stamps if you get the
>chance.  I have several in my collection, and my favorite shows the loyal
>Indian volounteer (complete with turban) manning an MG-34 against those
>frightful Brits.  They're really cute.

  Are there any references that Chandra Bose had any conferences with the 
Germans?  Were they expecting an uprising against the British through
pure propaganda or did they have a "fifth column" (mostly like rather small?)
working in the subcontinent?

>James Zuelow
>FSJFZ@acad3.alaska.edu

Larry J

-- 
#L.W. Jewell Moderator at the Veterans Information Site (veteran@cc.purdue.edu)#
#& WWII-L Listowner: "Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange,#
#sudden and wholly unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all   #
#phases of life." "Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41  #
From: clf@ecl.psu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.war
Subject: Re: The most decisive battle in history ?
Date: 8 Sep 92 07:30:12 EDT
Distribution: world
Organization: Engineering Computer Lab, Pennsylvania State University

	The battle for Stalingrad during the Second World War was, in my
opinion, one of the most important RECENT battles in history.  If the armies of
the Third Reich had won this battle and conquered the oil production plants to
the south, the war in the east might have resulted in a German victory.  

SS

Newsgroups: alt.war
From: jac54@cas.org ()
Subject: Re: The most decisive battle in history ?
Organization: Chemical Abstracts Service, Columbus, Ohio
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 11:10:21 GMT


	How about reorganizing the question as was suggested for the
	"greatest general" question?

	I suggest three classes:

a.      Strategically decisive.  A battle that cleared the way for a
	conquest, or stopped it in its tracks (e.g. Stalingrad).

b.      Tactically decisive.  A battle that resulted in a clear defeat
	of one side, without necessarily affecting the strategic outcome
	(e.g. Kasserine Pass?).

c.      Most educational.  Those battles or other engagements where one
	side (or both) learned a lesson that had been unrealized before
	(e.g. Pearl Harbour/Midway).

	Alec.
Newsgroups: alt.war
From: jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Larry Jewell)
Subject: Re: The most decisive battle in history ?
Organization: Purdue University
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 21:56:54 GMT

In article <1992Sep8.073012.4922@ecl.psu.edu> clf@ecl.psu.edu writes:

>	The battle for Stalingrad during the Second World War was, in my
>opinion, one of the most important RECENT battles in history.  If the armies of
>the Third Reich had won this battle and conquered the oil production plants to
>the south, the war in the east might have resulted in a German victory.  

>SS

As a bit of speculation, how far back could the Russian have fallen if they
had lost Stalingrad?  And how much further could the Heer have advanced?

Was there a position/line east of the Volga where the Stavka was planning
their next defense?

Larry J

-- 
#L.W. Jewell Moderator at the Veterans Information Site (veteran@cc.purdue.edu)#
#& WWII-L Listowner: "Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange,#
#sudden and wholly unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all   #
#phases of life." "Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41  #
From: tmhoff@oogoody.Corp.Sun.COM (Todd Hoff)
Newsgroups: alt.war
Subject: Looking for history of religious wars
Date: 13 Sep 92 20:43:55 GMT
Reply-To: tmhoff@oogoody.Corp.Sun.COM
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: oogoody.corp.sun.com

I'm interested in a history of wars fought primarily for religious
reasons. I realize its hard to separate politics and religion
but you get the idea. 

What were the worst religious wars in history?

Thanx
From: fsjfz@acad3.alaska.edu
Newsgroups: alt.war
Subject: Re: The most decisive battle in history ?
Date: 11 Sep 92 01:32:23 GMT
Organization: University of Alaska Fairbanks

In article <BuE2Ep.GHs@ecf.toronto.edu>, manuelp@ecf.toronto.edu (MANUELPILLAI Gerald Nishanthan) writes:
> In article <BuA4yu.BKG@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> jewell@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Larry Jewell) writes:
>>
> ...
> 
>>As a bit of speculation, how far back could the Russian have fallen if they
>>had lost Stalingrad?  And how much further could the Heer have advanced?
>>
>>Was there a position/line east of the Volga where the Stavka was planning
>>their next defense?
>>
> 
> I believe that the original plan was for the Wehrmacht to stop at the Urals.
> This would have separated the "European" from the "Asian" Soviet Union, and
> that was what Hitler wanted.   I guess Stalingrad was the eastern-most city
> that was in the battle plan.  Whether this could have been pulled off, is 
> another question altogether.  
> 
> Gerald M
> 
 From the STAVKA side, the Urals was the last line also.  They were pretty
confident of being able to hold ``The Urals Line'' (written about by both sides
in contingency planning) no matter what the Germans did.  That's why they
relocated what industry they could behind the range.
 And i believe Gerald is correct- The Germans never really wanted to occupy
anything *IN THE SOVIET UNION* past the Urals.  However, they had the stamps
for occupied India all ready printed.  An Indian campaign would have required
occupying the Cuacasus, both Stalingrad and Astrakhan on the Caspian Sea.  So i
don't think that Stalingrad was an end point for the Caucasus campaign.  Not to
mention the oil fields, which would have required clearing the coast of the
Caspian Sea of Soviets anyway.
 As a side, you should take a look at the occupied India stamps if you get the
chance.  I have several in my collection, and my favorite shows the loyal
Indian volounteer (complete with turban) manning an MG-34 against those
frightful Brits.  They're really cute.


James Zuelow
FSJFZ@acad3.alaska.edu
Newsgroups: sanet.talk.politics,alt.war
From: g91h7029@alpha.ru.ac.za (Wayne Humphries)
Subject: more political graffiti
Summary: pol
Keywords: pol
Organization: Rhodes University, Grahamstown, South Africa
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 05:52:16 GMT

My follow ups have been deactivated so I am forced to  
post directly.
Joan of Arc was a Pope and a Darth Vader wears lace undies.
If IBM do not fix my PC I will destroy them with set algebra.
I HATE Unix.
If the ANC alarm clock warfare does not stop in my res I am
going to start the AC/DC/van halen warfare.
I like van halen because he wears sunglasses to night clubs
because he is more interested in music than women.
Strauss understood the relationship between strategy and music.
Strategy is extension over time, tactics over space.
I wish women would not stir up wars with Cambridge communism
just because they can't do Greek. They should never have
been let in.
From: dan@cubmol.bio.columbia.edu (Daniel Zabetakis)
Newsgroups: alt.war
Subject: Re: Chinese buy Russian Carrier & Arms sale to Iran
Date: 9 Sep 92 22:37:24 GMT
Organization: Columbia University, Dept. of Biological Sciences.

In article <1992Sep9.181709.16004@ccu.umanitoba.ca> youngs@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Scott D. Young) writes:
>
>   Anyone know how close to operational the new PRC Carrier is?  I imagine that
>   it won't be useful for *quite* a while, especially considering all the talk
>   about the complications of learning carrier ops.  I will be interested to 
>   see how many missle subs North Korea buys to counter it.
>

    Missle subs? Naaaaaaaa. I think a few diesel-electric subs with torpedoes
would be better. Without an effective anti-sub screen, the carrier will be
a sitting duck. I haven't heard anyone suggest that the Chinese have any
significant ASW forces.

DanZ


-- 
This article is for entertainment purposes only. Any facts, opinions,
narratives or ideas contained herein are not necessarily true, and do
not necessarily represent the views of any particular person.  
Xref: sparky alt.war:1928 soc.history:8227
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 17:09:32 EDT
From: <CMH114@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.war,soc.history
Subject: Re: Battle of Hastings?

Well, lets see, William's army is defeated, probably is able to retreat, with
relitively intact force. retreat across channel. Harold consolidates English
throne. England stays within Scandinavian political sphere. William or his
successor remains in France to continue pressure on Capetian kings. More
knights and such around for first crusade, kingdom of jeruselem gains stronger
foundation. Capetian kings not able to expand influence under strong, local
Norman pressure, Ille de France remains a small duchy. Capetian line possibly
broken. Angivin dukes never given opening by civil war among norman barons in
england, unable to create angivin empire, nothing for capetians to bring
france together against. second crusade run by more competent leaders, takes
Egypt. Repeated, minor crusades as pope expands influence via monopolisation of
properties left in the control of the church by crusading knights (capetian
kings had regulated these, originally) and as papal legates begin to fill
power vacuum in France, crusades successfully declared aggainst Fredrick II,
Holy Roman Empire falls appart 10 years early. Chaos in Italy contained, strong
theocracy slowly begins to form. Mongols arrive in middle east, strong
King of Jeruselem and Cairo meets in battle, great christian loss. The great
crusade against the Tartar is declared. Mixed forces of Holy Papal Army and
a battered but rejuvinated Byzantine army meets the Hordes in the Gates of
Syria. Battle of the century, Mongols trapped and destroyed. Subsequent
campaign captures mesopatamian plain. Islam's back is broken. New, extensive
papal lands in Mesopotamia forms core of the Legate of the East, the effective
ruler of the new lands and overlord of the crusader East, vassal of the Pope.
Pope's influence at all time high, establishes overlordship over rulers of
europe, concentrated spanish crusades bog down in Grenada, etc. etc.

Speculation. Ain't it grand. :)

Points: Continued Norman pressure eliminates strong French king, increases
manpower available for crusades. Papal forces fill void, using leverage to
destroy HRE, unify Italy. Successful resistance against Mongols, conquest of
heart of Islam, creation of a theocracy over Europe and the Middle East.

Bad.

Mitch                    Quest Labs: Making The World a Better Place
Quest Laboratories                          to
Terraforming Division                    Dominate
State College, Pa
cmh114@psuvm.psu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.war
From: brian@garfield.cs.mun.ca (Brian Paquet)
Subject: Hitler Stalin pact..
Organization: CS Dept., Memorial University of Newfoundland
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 18:19:18 GMT

Hello. I am looking for the book by "Victor Suverov"[sp?]
on how Stalin planned to attack germany in 41.. 
I remember seeing an article on it in a jounal [RUSI I believe]
and I recall that it was expanded into a book.
I am also intrested in any critiqwues of his ideas..

[if someone could e-mail me the call number ISBN and publisher
of said book... it would be mighty nice]
From: tedrick@bongo.Berkeley.EDU (Tom Tedrick)
Newsgroups: alt.war
Subject: Re: Looking for history of religious wars
Date: 16 Sep 1992 03:22:38 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: bongo.berkeley.edu

Probably the conflict between Islam and Christianity could be
considered one very long war that has been going on for more
than 1000 years. Probably the worst religious war in history.

-- 
"This war [WW1] is no use to Russia if it does not bring us Constantinople, it 
must belong to us alone. Our historical mission and sacred duty is to plant the
cross on the cupola of the sacred St. Sophia. Russians would not be the chosen
people if they did not finally revenge this centuries old shame of Christendom."