From: skroger@zeus.calpoly.edu (Seth L. Kroger)
Subject: Re: THE MIND OF THE BIBLE BELIEVER
Organization: California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 18:37:28 GMT

rlg@omni (Randy garrett) writes:
>: > : }Evolution is not "just a theory."  It is a fact.  It has been
>: > : }observed, it has been duplicated in the laboratory, and the
>: > : }evidence is astoundingly consistent.
>: > 
>: > Your "Evolution is not "just a theory."  It is a fact."
>: > statement would seem to be in disagreement with your statement:
>: > 
>: > "Science cannot prove anything!"
>: 
>:   Is the existance of France a theory or a fact?  How about the existence of
>: atoms?  There comes a level of evidence where all but the most pig headed would
>: not refer to it as a fact.
>
>I wasn't dealing with an individual's stubborness or lack thereof,
>but with definitions.  I would call a fact an individually observable,
>independently verifiable piece of information.  A theory is more a
>model that attempts to the facts.  Many different theories can be
>constructed to fit the same facts.  I realize that philosophers
>have umpteen jillion different versions of these definitions 
>and even disagree as to whether facts even exist or not (or whether
>the universe exists or not, etc.)  Nevertheless, I think the above
>definitions would be held by most working scientists.

A scientific theory is a framework that unifies and explains facts and
observations.  The term "theory," in the scientific sense, doesn't imply its
reliability.  Like the "theory of celestial mechanics."  It's amazingly
accruate at pridicting the orbits of bodies in the solar system, and we've
used it numerous times to navigate probes to other planets.  But, science
still calls it a theory.

The fact of evolution consists of two major items:  1)  All life is related
through commom decent,  2)  The genetic composition of populations change
over time.

>:   Uh, read Chris Colby's FAQ.  He identifies several _observed_ cases of
>: speciation.
>Could you tell me where to FTP this?
>: still vertibrates, and trees are still living creatures.  You seem to be rather
>: arbitrary in your descision of where the line evolution can't cross is.  There
>: aren't any barriers anybody has been able to locate so far.  If someone finds
>: one let us know.
>I believe my definition of species is a pretty commonly accepted one.

I missed it.  (News feed barfed recently)  What is your definition of
species?

>: > If evolution had been clearly and unequivocally demonstrated in
>: > a laboratory setting, this would be big news.
>: 
>:   It was, you missed it (not having been born yet most likely).
>
>Gee, lots of other ardent evolutionists appear to have missed it
>as well.  If you could be so kind as to give a journal reference.
>I have access to some pretty good libraries, though I assume such
>important news would be widely distributed.

No, it wouldn't be big news because it evolution has been pretty much
established as fact.  There's no sense in getting excited over old hat.

>:   I can send you a program I wrote which evolves predator-prey interaction. 
>: Write me for the details (it's kind of long).
>
>I'd certainly be interested in more details.  I'm going to assume
>it has to do with gradual improvements/adaptations/changes
>of the interaction between
>the prey and predator, ala' some of the programs seen in, for
>example the Artificial Life conferences.  Maybe you are using
>the term "evolve" to mean "change".  This is a perfectly reasonable
>usage, but I was thinking of "evolve" more specifically meaning to
>change from one species to another.

"Change" is exactly what evolution means in the scientific sense.  As far as
"from one species to another," that would depend on what the definition of
that is in the Artificial Life sense.


|======================================================================|
| Seth Kroger                       "If God made us in His image we    |
| skroger@oboe.calpoly.edu              have certianly returned the    |
| Cal Poly, San Luis Obispo             compliment."  -Voltaire        |
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc