HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr)
Subject: Re: Plato's Views on Women
Keywords: Plato, politics, women, feminism
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 11:07:53 GMT

In article <40376@unix.SRI.COM> maslak@unix.SRI.COM (Valerie Maslak) writes:
}In article <1992Nov9.100337.12852@genie.slhs.udel.edu> starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr) writes:
}>The thing that strikes me as odd about this is that in order to truly know
}>that half of the human race was shut out of most of history, one would have
}>to know the history of the half that's claimed to be shut out.  This is
}>illogical.  No wonder women's studies is faulted on methodological grounds,
}>if this is the sort of thought it tends towards.
}
}Wrong. One would only have to BE part of the half of the human race
}that was shut out....one would ony have to have been a woman and
}have gone through elementary school and junior high school and high school
}and most of college seeing no faces of women and hearing no words of women...
}before the resurgence of the feminist movement in the 1970s
}brought women back into history again.

Which would be to have some firsthand knowledge of the history of the half
that's claimed to be shut out, which doesn't contradict what I said above in
the least.

This bit about there being no women in the history taught prior to the
1970s strikes me as plain nonsense on its face.  What about all the famous
women in history, as far back as Cleopatra?

}Speaking of Plato, I was at Georgetown University when Bill Clinton
}was there, and I had the interesting experience there of having an
}instructor, a Christian Brother, exclude me, as the only woman in
}the philosophy class, from two lectures that discussed Plato.
}Presumably because he was uncomfortable discussing Plato in front of
}me.  I could have complained to the dean, but this was pre-feminist-
}consciousness, so I didn't complain, I just let this be part of what
}convinced me to quit school. 

And I had a chemistry teacher whose high school professor told her that she
didn't belong in the class because she was a girl.  So what?  Citing cases
of sexist prejudice in the past hardly bolsters the case that there's been
some widespread practice of neglecting to give due credit to the achievements
of women.  What are these achievements?  Who are these women?  How were they
covered up?


Tim Starr - Renaissance Now! - Think Universally, Act Selfishly
starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu

"True greatness consists in the use of a powerful understanding to enlighten
oneself and others." - Voltaire
Newsgroups: soc.women
From: chrz@tellabs.com (Peter Chrzanowski)
Subject: Re: Self Appreciation (was: Re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?)
Summary: White Male System
Organization: Tellabs, Inc.
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 00:00:53 GMT

In article <1992Nov12.171018.4931@mr.med.ge.com>, wendy@sundown.mil.wi.us writes:
> 
> I suggest that before you men spoute off about how women are not treated as
> inherently inferior, you become better informed. Try the book "Women's Reality"
> by Ann Schaef. It might enlighten you. It did me. Helped me understand

From the book, "Women's Reality" (by Anne Schaef)  :



	"Once a woman is helped to see that her
	 perceptions are valid and that it is all
	 right to want to blame and feel like a
	 victim, she can begin moving into the     
	 rage stage...

THE FIRST MYTH is that the White Male System is the only thing that exists...

THE SECOND MYTH is that the White Male System is innately superior... 

THE THIRD MYTH is that the White Male System knows and understands everything...

THE FOURTH MYTH is that it is possible to be totally logical, rational,
and objective"

If that's the sort of thing that turns you on, by all means read it.
You'll find the phrase "White Male System" repeated about a dozen
times on every page -- *thousands* of times in the book.

I'd classify it under "irrational hate literature" -- the word
"irrational" being used (isn't all hate lit. irrational?) 
because the book claims rationality is a major component of that,
you guessed it, White Male System.  As if women didn't use reason.
Why, some women can even do math! 

I was left wondering if perhaps the publisher,  Harper and Row,
was not also a part of ...  The White Male System.
From: dswartz@sw.stratus.com (Dan Swartzendruber)
Newsgroups: soc.women
Subject: Re: Sad Day for Liberty
Date: 6 Nov 92 15:21:57 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

In article <1992Nov6.080709.1587@leland.Stanford.EDU>, farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf) writes:
> In article <1992Nov4.183211.6015@cbnewsk.cb.att.com> jrmo@volta.att.com (J.R.Moore) writes:
> >

[long anti-Libertarian ranting deleted]

Yeah, isn't it a bummer?  They actually want you to be responsible for the consequences
of your actions.  Definitely incompatible with your political leanings.

> I talked several friends out of voting for Libertarians when I showed
> them some postings on the net by Libertarians on the topic of "freedom
> of association."  (Those posts are usually eye-opening, to say the
> least.)

Oh yeah, right.  All Libertarians are like the extremists.  All pro-gun rights supporters
are Rambo clones with penis inadequacy.  And yeah, talk is cheap.  I notice you really
did "say the least".  If you have posts by more than a handful of extremist Libertarians,
how about posting the parts you considered offensive?

-- 

#include <std_disclaimer.h>

Dan S.
Newsgroups: soc.women,alt.abortion.inequity,talk.abortion,alt.feminism,soc.men
From: beaver@castor.cs.psu.edu (Don Beaver)
Subject: Re: Back Again To Father Notification...
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 14:58:33 GMT

In article <1dpvnpINNeha@gap.caltech.edu> peri@cco.caltech.edu (Michal Leah Peri) writes:
>beaver@castor.cs.psu.edu (Don Beaver) writes:
>
>>What if, as is often the case, a malicious mother prevents contact
>>with the father?  What if the husband has some doubt *before* the
>>birth or shortly thereafter?  Why would you want a man to dive into
>>a cuckolding without thinking and without any right to know?
>
>We're talking about notification of *abortion*.

No, the person to whom I responded made a statement about a husband's
right to know regarding general reproductive matters.


S/he (r l taylor) wrongly dismissed the question of husbands' liability
for wives' pregnancies regardless of genetics, by saying,

"By all means, any husbands who may be tricked into raising children conceived
by another man, take the child in for genetic testing, ..."


Why is this relevant?  Because a husband may be liable for children
that are not his, genetically, and this would demonstrate that marriage
does not preserve fundamental, individual, constitutional rights.
In other words, marriage places default restrictions on husbands'
rights, motivated by traditional values.

If that is the case, then placing restrictions on wives' rights
falls right in line with the legal treatment of husbands.  Especially
where matters of reproductive information and choice are concerned.

Don
-- 
beaver@cs.psu.edu                       Opinions from the PC-challenged
Newsgroups: soc.women,talk.politics.theory,sci.philosophy.tech,sci.philosophy.meta,sci.classics
From: gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch)
Subject: Re: Plato's Views on Women
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 02:56:17 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: mydog in exile

pajerek@kadsma.kodak.com (Don Pajerek) writes:
| 
| Fine let's agree that gender is relevant to the study of history.
| This has no importance whatsoever to the question of whether such a
| thing as 'feminist philosophy' exists, or can exist.
| 
| Let's take a philosophical question: is mathematics reducible to logic?
| Is there is 'feminist' perspective on this question? And keep in mind,
| we must separate 'the position taken by most feminists' from 'a position
| that is both distinct and distinctly feminist'.

That's not only kind of philosophy there is, though.
Questions of grammar may approach gender- and class-
neutrality.  Political questions (for example) do 
not.
-- 

 )*(    Gordon Fitch    )*(    gcf@panix.com    )*(
( 1238 Blg. Grn. Sta.,  NY NY 10274 * 718.273.5556 )
Newsgroups: soc.women,talk.politics.theory,sci.philosophy.tech,sci.philosophy.meta,sci.classics
From: christo@psych.toronto.edu (Christopher Green)
Subject: Re: Plato's Views on Women
Keywords: Plato, politics, women, feminism
Organization: Department of Psychology, University of Toronto
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1992 22:45:52 GMT

In article <1992Nov8.174054.9777@netcom.com> barry@netcom.com (Kenn Barry) writes:
>In article <BxE64p.ID5@quake.sylmar.ca.us> brian@quake.sylmar.ca.us (Brian K. Yoder) writes:
>>the answers to philosophical questions are matters of objective fact
>
>	Uh, Brian, did you really mean to say this?
>
Sometimes, they are matter of *subjective* fact. Do you have feelings?
Read Searle's new book, _The rediscovery of mind_


-- 
Christopher D. Green                christo@psych.toronto.edu
Psychology Department               cgreen@lake.scar.utoronto.ca
University of Toronto
Toronto, Ontario M5S 1A1
Newsgroups: soc.women,soc.men
From: gwangung@byron.u.washington.edu (Roger Tang)
Subject: Re: Get a CLUE, a LARGE CLUE
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 23:07:01 GMT

In article <1dp0bdINNc8u@transfer.stratus.com> dswartz@sw.stratus.com (Dan Swartzendruber) writes:
>In article <1992Nov10.174255.478@u.washington.edu>, gwangung@byron.u.washington.edu (Roger Tang) writes:
>> In article <1doh4kINNaie@transfer.stratus.com> dswartz@sw.stratus.com (Dan Swartzendruber) writes:
>> >So semantic handwaving aside, is the one any worse than the other?  I have a
>> >real problem with that, because it makes the good/evil of something you do
>> >dependent on the situation. 
>> 	Is that a problem?
>> 	Is blowing someone away randomly on the street equivalent to blowing
>> someone away who's invading your home with intent to kill you?
>> 	Same action, different situation.
>I guess I wasn't clear enough.  I didn't mean the action, I meant the act,
>with all of the non-physical connotations involved.  Most people will agree
>that in your example, the actions are the same, but the acts are not (i.e.
>one is cold-blooded murder and the other is self-defense).  If you tell me
>I can kill someone in self-defense in my bedroom but not in my kitchen, that's
>when things start getting questionable to me.  And in any event, what is your
>answer to the question I posed?  Do you think a black who hates whites and
>commits antisocial acts based on that hatred is somehow less bad than a white
>who hates blacks and acts accordingly?

	No, but this isn't what's being talked about. There >IS< some
semantic problems involved here; I'd differentiate between individual racism
and institutional racism.  There's less debate on the first; there's more
on the latter, particularly if you conflate the two.




-- 
	"I got into theatre originally to pick up girls. Unfortunately, all I
found were women..."
e-mail:  gwangung@u.washington.edu
Newsgroups: soc.women,soc.men
From: farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf)
Subject: Re: Get a CLUE, a LARGE CLUE
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 92 19:15:37 GMT

In article <1dgphuINNq77@shrike.und.ac.za> dace@shrike.und.ac.za (Roy Dace) writes:
>
>Where I come from (and yes, it's quite easy to spot racism here), making
>unqualified generalisations about members of a specific race is called
>*RACISM* and is frowned upon in civilised areas! 

Just as a note, many people don't consider this an accurate definition
of racism.  Racism refers to an institutional action that puts power
in the hands of white and fosters white privilege.  That's why you'll
hear people saying that African Americans, Hispanics, Asian Americans,
etc. can't be racist, since they don't have the power to be racist,
although they can be prejudiced.

(I guess I better steel myself for the nasty comments this post is
sure to cause.  :))
From: srp@cgl.ucsf.edu (Scott R. Presnell)
Newsgroups: soc.women
Subject: Re: Am I "exploiting" this woman?
Date: 7 Nov 92 16:28:11 GMT
Organization: UCSF Computer Graphics Lab

asgard@plx.com (J.R. Stoner) writes:

>In article <1992Nov4.200216.26250@adobe.com> kendall@adobe.com (Janice Kendall) writes:
>_ I am asking men to consider whether it is more important for them to be 
>_ able to stare at "T&A" during work hours or if it is more important that 
>_ they give consideration to the feelings and comfort of their co-workers?

>I am asking jews to consider whether it is more improtant for them to be
>able to stare at aryan women during work hours or if it is more important
>that they give consideration to the feelings of fear about the purity of their
>co-workers?

>-- 
>J.R. Stoner, DWMIT - asgard@plx.com - sun.com!plx!plxsun!asgard

I stared at this for a minute or so and came up with two possibilities.

1) Intended as an analogy: 

	This is so *totally* bogus.  In no way are men 1) a repressed
minority that are 2) having their way of live threatened.  I could go on
but I don't see the point.  So, it must be...

2) Intended wholly *as* a bogosity in order to draw attention to Janice's
statement:

	OK - so it did that.  I still see nothing wrong with consdering the
thoughts and feelings of all co-workers, epecially on what should be
neutral ground.  Have some common sense - put it in a drawer or take it
home.

	Which brings me to the point of this post which is: in true usenet
form, the original subject has been *transmorgified* into a shell of it's
former self.  I had some empathy for the original posted question of
whether he was "exploiting" the woman by waching her (not wether he was
objectifying, or reducing her in some fashion.)  But the differences are 1)
it was totally between him and her - not his or her co-workers, not the
party-goers, and 2) he didn't put her there, at the party, with the
partially open kayak suit over her form - she did.  







-- 

	- Scott Presnell (srp@cgl.ucsf.edu)
Newsgroups: soc.women,alt.abortion.inequity,talk.abortion,alt.feminism,soc.men
From: knapp@spot.Colorado.EDU (David Knapp)
Subject: Was Clinton's victory America's message to the Anti-Choice?
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 15:50:55 GMT


It seems to me that one of the largest deciding factors, along with the
economy, in pushing Clinton past the finish line was abortion. It seems
that few voted 'for'  WClinton (or even 'for' Perot) but did this as a 
vote *against* Bush.

I'm curious to hear what you all think about the issue of abortion and its
effects on the presidency and other implications such as the dangling
supreme court.


-- 
David Knapp                                      University of Colorado, Boulder
Perpetual Student                                   knapp@spot.colorado.edu
Xref: sparky soc.women:19379 soc.men:19126
Newsgroups: soc.women,soc.men
Subject: Re: Back Again To Father Notification...
From: rivero@mdcbbs.com (Michael Rivero)
Date: 11 Nov 92 16:15:40 PDT
Distribution: na
Organization: M&E (Division of EDS), Cypress CA

In article <1992Nov6.210926.19617@ils.nwu.edu>, lynch@ils.nwu.edu (Richard Lynch) writes:
|> In article <8NRSBNNV@cc.swarthmore.edu> auer@cs.swarthmore.edu (David S. Auer) writes:
|> >In cases of abuse, there is often a lot of pressure upon the woman including
|> >the pressure of reporting the abuse to often callous police and fear of
|> >retribution by the abuser.  Abuse and rape are difficult to establish.  In
|> >such cases father's notification can be tragic.

  The problem with that thinking is that virtually every police department
now has a special abuse unit which is not callous at all, but sympathetic
to the point of accepting a claim of abuse at face value without absolutly 
no physical evidence to back it up. What is to prevent a woman from 
claiming abuse without proof as a means to circumvent father notification?
That such charges are made falsely and purely for financial gain has
been established by both the FBI and the San Diego Grand Jury. Given that
there are (as yet) no penelties for making such a charge, what would
prevent a woman from using such a loophole? Certainly in my own case,
my ex would not have hesitated to claim she was abused to get around
a notification requirement and would have patted herself on the back for
her cleverness.


<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
|  Michael Rivero rivero@mdcbbs.com  "Middle-aged Mutant Ninja Animator" |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|     This is my last week at EDS (mdcbbs.com) and since I am planning   |
|    to run the animation shop as a full-time business (unless a higher  |
|    paying job comes along) I will be off the net for the near future.  |
|    I want to thank all the posters, my net-friends, and even my        |
|    net-enemies for having made this last year a most interesting and   |
|    colorful time!                                                      |
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Newsgroups: soc.women
From: kaarts@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Kenneth John Aarts)
Subject: Re: Am I "exploiting" this woman?
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 01:13:19 GMT

In <1992Nov5.171030.16174@u.washington.edu> gwangung@byron.u.washington.edu (Roger Tang) writes:

>In article <92309.205408CMSTEST@GTRI01.GATECH.EDU> CMSTEST@GTRI01.GATECH.EDU (Jeffery Swagger) writes:

>>The workplace is becoming increasingly diversified with respect to
>>race, creed, gender, ethnic backgrounds, religion, etc.  IMHO, we
>>must all become more considerate and tolerant of each other if
		       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>we wish to avoid having the workplace turned into a battle ground.


	Both of these ( consideration and tolerance) seem to be lacking in 
discussions about posters and calenders.  If someone is using these posters
in a campaign of harassment, then a case for the removal of the poster exists.
(Removal of the harasser could also be warranted.)  The existence of the
poster itself does not constitute harassment.  In cases where there is no
harassment, but for some reason some person feels offended, two intelligent
people ought to be able to work something out.
	I am still confused about why so many people in this group find the
Chip & Dale calenders and posters so offensive.  There seems to be a great
tendancy for knees to jerk when this comes up.

>	But, of course, this reeks of Political Correctness. And, thus, we
>should not give it the slightest consideration in our thoughts.
>	(Sarcasm, for the ideologically challenged.)


Ken
Xref: sparky soc.women:19312 talk.politics.theory:4857 sci.philosophy.tech:4043 sci.philosophy.meta:2505 sci.classics:978
From: starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr)
Newsgroups: soc.women,talk.politics.theory,sci.philosophy.tech,sci.philosophy.meta,sci.classics
Subject: Re: Plato's Views on Women
Keywords: Plato, politics, women, feminism
Date: 11 Nov 92 11:19:48 GMT
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences

In article <1992Nov10.232420.26220@netcom.com> barry@netcom.com (Kenn Barry) writes:
}>Which ever side of these positions you take, you can't say that BOTH
}>sides of the issue are true.
}
}	Oh, but I would; or, more accurately, I'd say that the notion of
}truth as some objectively measurable thing is not applicable to such
}questions.

Sounds relativist to me, which is a well-known position independent of
feminism.  (In)Famous relativists include Il Duce, Mussolini himself, and
Der Fuhrer, Hitler, who often spouted off about how truth was relative to
race, hence "Jewish" physics and "Aryan" logic.


Tim Starr - Renaissance Now! - Think Universally, Act Selfishly
starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu

"True greatness consists in the use of a powerful understanding to enlighten
oneself and others." - Voltaire
Newsgroups: soc.women,alt.abortion.inequity,talk.abortion,alt.feminism,soc.men
From: auer@cs.swarthmore.edu (David S. Auer)
Subject: Re: Back Again To Father Notification...
Organization: Swarthmore College, PA
Distribution: na
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 19:19:54 GMT

In article <1992Nov6.210926.19617@ils.nwu.edu> lynch@ils.nwu.edu (Richard Lynch) writes:
>In article <8NRSBNNV@cc.swarthmore.edu> auer@cs.swarthmore.edu (David S. Auer) writes:
>[...]
DSA>In cases of abuse, there is often a lot of pressure upon the woman including
DSA>the pressure of reporting the abuse to often callous police and fear of
DSA>retribution by the abuser.  Abuse and rape are difficult to establish.  In
DSA>such cases father's notification can be tragic.

RL>I am not indifferent to these issues, and have already stated that there have
RL>to be clearly established exceptions if father notification were the rule.
RL>You have yet to convince me that father notification as a rule with exceptions
RL>is wrong.

I am yet to be convinced that father notification is wrong.  It is has glaring
problems with it, however.  Until I can be convinced that such a notification
scheme can be reworked so that it does not add pressure to women in abusive
situations, I would have to find myself opposed to such a measure.
-dave
Newsgroups: soc.women
From: sethb@fid.morgan.com (Seth Breidbart)
Subject: Re: Am I "exploiting" this woman?
Organization: my opinions only
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 04:30:39 GMT

In article <Bx9L3x.HDn@news.cso.uiuc.edu> parker@ehsn17.cen.uiuc.edu
() writes:

>Simply stated:  passive rights have precidence over active rights.
>The right *not* to have something happen to you is more important than the
>right of you to cause that something *to* happen to someone.

So my right *not* to be hassled for reading a magazine takes
precedence over your right to hassle me for reading it?

Seth		sethb@fid.morgan.com
Newsgroups: soc.women,soc.men
From: pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu (Paul Ciszek)
Subject: Re: Sad Day for Liberty
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 92 18:18:50 GMT

>> In <1992Nov4.163113.27613@athena.cs.uga.edu> carr@athena.cs.uga.edu writes:
>> 
>>> This is a sad day. To all you Creton men out there who are going to reply

EXCUSE ME!  Most of the people in Colorado are women.  The voting line I
stood in was mixed pretty evenly.  Amendment 2 was passed by the votes of
CRETON WOMEN, as well as creton men.


Paul Ciszek, pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu | No nation was ever drunk when wine was
                                   | cheap.   -- Thomas Jefferson
Newsgroups: soc.women,soc.singles