HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
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Date:         Fri, 16 Oct 1992 18:23:41 MET
From:         rjnipl@GOLIAT.DC.LUTH.SE
Subject:      Re: Some questions
              "lhh%lcuxlp@ATT.ATT.COM" at Oct 16, 92 8:55 am

Len Horn:
>
> PS
> Want to start a chain of outrageous things said at RCIA :-) ?
> A free sessions ago, a facilitator stated that
> the CIA had Thomas Merton assassinated because he was on the
> verge of uniting Catholicism and Buddhism. The statement, of course,
> went unchallenged.
>

Hi Len, I am very interested in the last assertion about Thomas
Merton. Wouldn't you give some more details about it? Do you know
what he had meant?

Thank you in advance

--     Ryszard

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ryszard Jan Nipl
----------------------------------------------------------------------
  Lulea University of Technology,   Division of Mineral Processing
  postal address:                   S - 951 87  Lulea, Sweden
  phone:    +46 920 916 93          telex: 80447 LUHS
  telefax:  +46 920 911 99          internet: rjnipl@mop.luth.se
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center
Date: Tuesday, 13 Oct 1992 02:45:32 EDT
From: Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: Altar girls and millstones
 <tjrad.718396261@pv0a0c.vincent.iastate.edu> <92282.092440MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
 <edjans01.718644278@starbase.spd.louisville.edu>

David,
You show a consistent ability to read what I write and then respond
as if I had written something else.  The other day you read my origi-
nal posting on altar girls and millstones, which, following Christ's
warning in the passage I quoted from the Gospels, was a warning that
pastors and parents who corrupt girls by letting them function as
altar girls, thereby teaching them that they are free to reject any
Church law they dislike, are putting themselves in danger of Hell,
and responded as if I had said the girls themselves were in immediate
danger of Hell.

Now you say that Latin was not the vernacular at the time of the
Council of Trent, but I never said it was.  I was referring to earli-
er centuries.  St. Jerome's translation of the Bible into Latin is
known as the Vulgate because it was translated into the _ vulgus _,
the language of the common people.  (And even at the time of Trent
and later, Latin was known by many educated layman, not just church-
men.)

You quote my words, "You ask if altar girls are against the  rules.
Yes, they are.  Someone else on the list recently said that he could
provide documentation proving this fact." Then you reply, "Then I
say, 'Put up, or shut up!'" Since I specifically said "Someone else"
said he had the information, your courteous request would better have
been addressed to him, not to me.

It is unlikely that you are deliberately misrepresenting what I say.
You undoubtedly think that you are replying to what I wrote.  That
may explain your difficulty with the Bible and later Church docu-
ments.  Others have already pointed out that Jesus repeatedly warned
against Hell in the Gospels and cited some of the passages in which
He did so.  I will just repeat Hebrews 13:17  "Obey your leaders and
do as they tell you, because they must give an account of the way
they look after your souls; make this a joy for them to do, and not a
grief--you yourselves would be the losers." Catholics are to obey the
leaders of the Church, and the New Testament explicitly says so.

Marty Helgesen
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Date:         Thu, 15 Oct 1992 10:54:55 -0400
From:         URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM
Subject:      RE: Woman priests again

Eric writes:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Obviously, you cannot use a scientific method to determine if ordination
of women is valid. Not only that, any scientific investigation will only
conclude that men and women are substantially different, not the same,
and will not help anyone in pushing women priests.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

This sounds like wishful thinking rather than fact. Any scientific
investigation will show that any two people are different. Your use
of the word "substantially" is ambiguous. I, for one, would question
anyone who would extrapolate from a sampling of twelve humans, what
the norms should be for billions of humans:-)
If Fatima and other sightings show anything, it is that a calling
is independent of sex, race, nationality or age. -J.J.
- just another cradle cafeteria catholic with no credibility:-)-
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Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 19:11:18 -0700
From:         "(Gordon C. Zaft)" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>
Subject:      Women cardinals?

On Oct 6,  3:03pm, "(Scharle)" wrote:
}
}     Is there any reason that there has never been a woman Cardinal?
} There certainly have been laymen who have been Cardinals, and as the
} only function of a Cardinal is to be a Papal elector, would it not seem
} appropriate for the Church to show that it is not merely being
} anti-woman (in regards the issue of women priests) by naming some women
} as Cardinals?
}-- End of excerpt from "(Scharle)"

	"Those promoted as cardinals are men freely selected by the
Roman Pontiff, who are at least in the order of the presbyterate and
are especially outstanding for their doctrine, morals, piety, and
prudence in action; those, however, who are not yet bishops must
receive episcopal consecration."
			Canon 351.1

	I don't see how it's possible to have a woman cardinal.

--
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
                 Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.
You are being paged.
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Date:         Sat, 10 Oct 1992 11:47:13 -0700
From:         "(Gordon C. Zaft)" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>
Subject:      Re: Altar girls and all that

On Oct 9, 11:55pm, "(Michael M Gorman Jr)" wrote:
} Subject: altar girls and all that
}
} Comment 1.  There's clearly a difference between being in the stable
} ministry of lector and being called in to do it as a temporary deputy,
} and likewise for acolyte.
}
} Comment 2.  Is acolyte the same thing as altar server?

	Basically, yes.
}
} Comment 3.  If the answer to #2 is yes, then it would seem that women
} can't be installed as permanent altar servers, but that they can be
} deputized to do it now and then--one could argue for this by saying
} that the way for it is left open by saying that lay persons can
} perform "other functions".

	No.  You forgot about the 'according to the norms of law' part.

}
} Comment 4.  What's a commentator?

	A commentator is someone who reads a brief synopsis/explanation
of the first two readings before the lector reads them.  I think it's
rather superfluous, myself.
}-- End of excerpt from "(Michael M Gorman Jr)"



--
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
                 Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.
Education helps earning capacity.  Ask any college professor.
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From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
Subject: Re: English translation
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 18:30:55 GMT


   Eric, the Latin original is "Verbum Domini."  People who translate
this as "the word of the Lord" are closer to the literal translation
(although "word [ of ] Lord" would be even closer).  However, I still
disagree with the practice. 1) it is not the authorized (by the Holy
See) translation, and so they have absolutely no authority to do so.
2) just because it it the literal translation does not make it
grammatically correct in the language to which is is being translated.
In this case, it is not grammatically correct to translate it
literally.

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
From: waldbill1981@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Heresy--MODERNISM
Date: 16 Oct 92 16:06:44 -0500
Organization: University of Northern Iowa


the following is taken from THE GREAT HERESIES by Hilaire Belloc, first
published in 1938 by Sheed & Ward, London
retypeset and republished in 1991 by TAN Books and Publishers, Inc.
this excerpt is from Chapter 7 - The Modern Phase

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 
 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 
  * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

  "We approach the greatest moment of all.
  "The Faith is now in the presence not of a particular heresy as in the past--
the Arian, the Manichaen, the Albigensian, the Mohammedan--nor is it in the
presence of a sort of generalized heresy as it was when it had to meet the
Protestant revolution from three to four hundred years ago.  The enemy which
the Faith now has to meet, and which may be called "The Modern Attck," is a
wholesale assault upon the fundamentals of the Faith--upon the very existence
of the Faith.  And the enemy now advancing against us is increasingly conscious
of the fact that there can be no question of neutrality.  The forces now
opposed to the Faith design to destroy.  The battle is henceforward engaged
upon a definite line of cleavage, involving the survival or destruction of the
Catholic Church.  And all--not a portion--of its philosophy.
  "We know, of course, that the Catholic Church cannot be destroyed.  But what
we do not know is the extent of the area over which it will survive; its power
of revival or the power of the enemy to push it further and further back on to
its last defenses until it may seem as though Anti-Christ had come and the
final issue was about to be decided.  Of such is the struggle immediately
before the world."

  * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *   
 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 

Veritas Christi,

Brian T. Waldbillig
Petrus Romanus
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Date:         Wed, 7 Oct 1992 18:34:38 CDT
Reply-To:     bradk%isdgsm@rtsg.mot.com
From:         "(Brad Kaiser)" <bradk%isdgsm@RTSG.MOT.COM>
Subject:      re: st. michael prayer

Oops, a correction to my last post:

Mike Simpson writes:

>> Could someone send me the words to the prayer to St. Michael? Since
>> I bear his name, I thought I might pray to him for strength. I had
>> a Sunday school teacher who used to close classes with it, but he said
>> it so fast, I could never remember the words.

I think you mean this one:

     St. Michael, the Archangel,
     Defend us in battle,
     Be our defense against the wickedness and snares of the devil,
     May God rebuke him, we humbly pray,
     And my thou, O prince of the Heavenly Host,
         ^^

(should be, and *may* thou ...)

     By the Power of God,
     Thrust into hell Satan,
     And all the evil spirits,
     Who prowl about the world
     Seeking the ruin of souls.

     Amen.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: jocallag@bach.helios.nd.edu (john ocallaghan)
Subject: Re:      Re: women priests (yet again)
Organization: OUC, University of Notre Dame
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 06:11:43 GMT

In article <009621EF.18F35920.22054@swdev.si.com> "Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support, x8425" <tillman@SWDEV.SI.COM> writes:
>
>Because, at the judgement, God will not ask me if I followed some institution's
>instructions, He'll ask me what I did for the benefit of His other children.  I
>for one will never abdicate my own responsibility for doing what I feel God asks
>of me and for deciding on my own what that is because I'm going to be the one
>held accountable for it.
Can you say with absolute certainty that God will not ask you if you followed
that institutions instructions?  Can you say with absolute certitude that God
will not say to you, "because of your weakness, and because of my great love
for you, but not only you but you in communion with all others, I left
you a Church to instruct you on how to properly approach me; this is why
I said to the Apostles, "who sees you sees me," and "what you bind on
earth shall be bound in heaven," and "upon this rock I will build my Churhc."
Why have you turned away from the gift I gave you precisely for your salvation?"Certainly God could have save mankind without a Church.  But certainly he
could save mankind with a Church, in precisely the way the Church claims He
has chosen (unless you want to say that you know that God could not so choose.)
So how do you know He has chosen the first alternative, and not the second?
This is what your claim seems to imply; giving you the benfit of the doubt, that you recognize that indeed God could choose to save mankind through a Church
in precisely the way the Church claims He has, you seem to be claiming 
that you know that in fact God has not chosen this.  Upon what grounds to
you base your knowledge of this choice of God's?
Peace,
John


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Date:         Wed, 14 Oct 1992 23:49:04 -0500
From:         Amanda Walker <amanda@INTERCON.COM>
Subject:      Re: women priests (yet again)

> What authority is more reliable than Apostolic authority?

This sounds like a trick question :).  Consulting that very authority...

"The truth of our faith becomes a matter of ridicule among the infidels if
 any Catholic, not gifted with the necessary scientific learning, presents
 as dogma what scientific scrutiny shows to be false."
                -- Saint Thomas Aquinas

Food for thought?


Peace,

Amanda Walker
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Date:         Tue, 13 Oct 1992 08:12:13 CDT
From:         CCCAMPER@MIZZOU1.BITNET
Subject:      The Story of Fatima, Part 2

Fatima, part 2

From the perspective of the early part of the twentieth century it was
difficult to accept the prophesies given, for some. The future was
outlined both with man following Our Lady's requests and with man not
following Our Lady's requests. This difficulty helped to impede the
spread of her message to all mankind. A great war was to begin in the
reign of Pius XI. While some maintain that WWII didn't begin until
Pius XII, the assasination of the archduke in Yugoslavia that helped
trigger WWII did take place during the while Pius XI was pope. Also,
there was the Spanish Civil War and it was basically a war
against God. Uncounted churches were destroyed, 14 bishops and over
7000 priests and religious were martyred. There was even the "execution"
of the famous Sacred Heart statue located in the geographical center
of Spain.
  The "great sign" of an "unknown light" given by God to warn of
impending punishment occurred on the night of January 25-26, 1938.
It appeared to be an enormous display of the Aurora Borealis which was
visible throughout the northern hemisphere and was viewed by millions.
Many believed it to be the end of the world. Newspapers gave extensive
coverage to the event, even the New York Times devoted nearly a full
page to the strange sight. Scientists tried to explain the light as
a spectacular yet natural occurance of the Aurora Borealis but Lucia
maintained they should investigate further. This was eventually done
and it was learned that, while the Aurora is associated with sunspot
activity, there was none at that time. The "Aurora" covered an
unprecedented 193,000 square miles, reaching heights of 250 to 440
vertical miles, far beyond the 185 mile height of prior "great"
Auroras. Dr. Carl Stoermer of the Institute of Theoretical Astro-
physics in Oslo, Norway, reported these findings in the September 9,
1938 edition of "Die Naturwissenschaften" and also stated that there
was an accompanying strange noise "similar to the sound of burning
grass and brush".

(To be continued)
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Date:         Tue, 13 Oct 1992 15:16:22 MST
From:         ABDWINIG@IDBSU.IDBSU.EDU
Subject:      Homosexuality

Len wrote:
>>writing older than 20 years is out of date...The Bible must be
>>constantly revaluated in light of new information.

Eric wrote:
>HA!  What a joke!

Right on Eric!  Just look how much the wisdom of modern social thought has
achieved.  Skyrocketing murder, crime, unwanted pregnancies, millions of
abortions, declining respect for human life and other property, the spread
of incurable deadly disease, high divorce rates, unnecessary poverty,
hatred, etc. ad infinitum.  Len, you've got it reversed.  If we reevaluated
new information and thinking in terms of Scripture and Tradition, it should
be obvious we'd have less social problems.
     Its the same old story.  Every time man - excuse me - 'humans'- stray
from God, they make a mess of things.

Brent Winiger
abdwinig@idbsu.idbsu.edu
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Date:         Wed, 7 Oct 1992 14:38:53 CDT
From:         CCCAMPER@MIZZOU1.BITNET
Subject:      Re: praying the rosary

On Wed, 7 Oct 1992 13:17:09 EDT <catholic@DRAGON.COM> said:
>I am interested in how others pray the rosary.  My priest gave me a
>little hard back book, "The Scriptural Rosary", that has a Bible verse
>to read with each 'Hail Mary'.  While I cannot always use this book,
>the meditations carry over to the times I pray in my car or other places.

I sent a post a week or two ago on meditations while praying the
rosary so won't get into that here.
>
>Besides the standard prayers of the rosary, do any of you add other
>prayers?  After Mass on Saturday we say the "O my Jesus ..." Fatima

After that prayer, we add another, and I can't remember where it is
from, but I *think* its Fatima. "My God, I adore You, I trust You,
and I love You, and I beg pardon for those who do not adore You, do
not love trust You and do not love You". (this is after each decade)

>prayer after each decade, and we pray for the Holy Father at the end,
>but we do nothing else.  When I pray privately, I say a decade prayer
>Mary requested at Conyers:
>
>	"God our Father, please send us holy priests, all for the
>	 Sacred and Eucharist Heart of Jesus, all for the Sorrowful
>	 and Immaculate Heart of Mary, in union with Saint Joseph."
>
Thanks! Haven't heard this one.

>I know there must be other traditional prayers or methods of praying.
>
 In Christ,
 Elizabeth

ps And don't forget the chaplet of the Divine Mercy.
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From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
Subject: Re: Protestants and Catholics (Was: Sinead O'Connor)
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 15:12:07 GMT

In article <oneil.718438251@cwis> oneil@cwis.unomaha.edu (Sharon O'Neil) writes:
>I don't consider Catholicism and Protestantism to be different religions: 
>both are forms of Christian expression.  However, let's admit that 
>Catholics and Protestants have often had a very difficult time sharing 
>space.  (Take North Ireland for an example.  Or Yugoslavia.)

   I don't really think these are very good examples of religious
conflict.  The trouble in Ulster/Northern Ireland is in my opinion
more a cultural/class clash between the indigenous Irish and the
British who centuries ago established rule there.  The Irish happen to
be Catholic, whereas the British happen to be Protestant. 

   As far as Yugoslavia is concerned, there is no significant
Protestant presence there.  The different groups are Croats
(Catholic), Serbs (Orthodox), and Bosnians (Muslims).  Again, this is
mainly a cultural conflict, the Serbs vs. everyone else, with religion
being more correlative than causative.  The aggression of the Serbs,
in fact, has been condemned by their own Orthodox leaders.

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
From: elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us (Edward J. Branley)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: English translation
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 92 16:38:05 CDT
Organization: Minas Tirith BBS (Public Access Usenet for New Orleans)

"Nancy M. Piatkowski" <PIATKONM@SNYBUFVA.BITNET> writes:

> There is a new sacramentary due out soon that is a new translation- ICEL,
> (referred to by Amanda) has been working on it for several years. There is a
> basic committee of theologians, liturgists and grammarians and then others
> outside the committee who make suggestions- Then, from what I remember, their
> trnslation goes to he Bishops' Committee o nthe Liturgy and thence to Rome fo
> approval. Hopefully the translation will be more majestic and flowing-  One
> change that takes effect the first Sunday of Advent is at the end of the
> readings is from "This is the Word of the Lord" to "The Word of the Lord"
> Nancy

Nancy, what do you mean by 'takes effect?'  I ask because my parish has already
begun using the new phrasing.



|Edward J. Branley         elendil@mintir.new-orleans.la.us|
|Seashell Software, Metairie, LA            +1-504-455-5087|
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From: 15942@brahms.udel.edu (Stephen Barr)
Subject: Re: Pastoral vs. Authoritarian
Organization: University of Delaware
 I must say I am disgusted by this last posting on annulments. 
 Yes, we all know painful stories like that. In my own family
 I have a brother who has married a divorcee, a mother in law
 who has done the same, a brother in law who himself has 
 divorced and remarried, and as well I have several friends
 in the same situation. But an annulment is a statement that
 no valid marriage ever existed. To say "I know this was a
 valid marriage but will declare it otherwide in order to
 do what Our Lord very clearly (as you admit, sir) forbade,"
 is not only dishonest, cynical, and hypocritical, but willful
 disobedience to God-- willful and knowing. There is not a
 theologian in the world who would dare to express such a
 view of annulments. Yes, it happens that way. Who are you 
 fooling by such a ruse? God? Does not God know if a valid
 marriage existed? Will He be taken in by a dishonest human
 tribunal. Yes we all bleed for people who have been desrted.
 We bleed more for the little children in such marriages. 
 I have a friend and colleague whose wife ran off. He has
 two little boys (5 and 7) who are close to my kids. Don't
 think your the only one who is touched by these things. But
 don't call a lie and a fraud something good. This is a 
 typically American idea that every "problem" has an easy
 answer. What about the Ethiopian graduate student at my 
 University who driven over the edge by his academic difficulties
 sexually abused his own 9 year old daughter and got thrown
 into the slammer for 33 years without parole? Fellow inmate
 threatened to "kill him in the worst way he can imagine".
 As a result he tried to commit suicide,. What is your quick
 fix for his "sufferings ? What is your "solution" to the
 "problem" of his daughter? What would your pastoral solution
 be, give him a hacksaw? I forgot to mention that he had bought
 a gun and had talked about killing his thesis advisor. 
 I am sorry, but quack theology and soft-peddling sin is
 no "pastoral solution". Sometimes like Christ in Gethsemene
 we have to say "O my father, if this cup may not pass away
 from me except I drink it, thy will be done." My Ethiopian
 friend understands this. He has found Christ in prison (not
 through me). Do you understand it? Steve.
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 15:10:57 GMT

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