From: towfiq@microdyne.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian
Subject: Re: Reply To Mark Towfiq
Date: 22 Aug 92 17:47:26 GMT
Organization: Clearpoint Research Corporation

>>>>> On 21 Aug 92 19:36:02 GMT, trivedi@curie.uchicago.edu (Anil
>>>>> Trivedi) said:

at> I first came across your name when you posted to us in SCI the sad
at> news about Mr Samandari's execution in Iran. I have also read,
at> profitably, a few of your other postings. I am therefore less than
at> delighted that my first direct communication to you should be
at> this. But, we all bow to God's will, don't we? :-)

  That's right!  Actually, I liked your posting -- it was
thought-provoking, and honest.  I think I can clear up a few things,
however.

mt> Anil, it seems as though you would paint yourself as knowing more
mt> than Arindam about the Baha'i Faith. 

at> More than Arindam, I just might. But if so, it would be no
at> spectaculor achievement, for I have been curious about the Bahai
at> faith for over ten years, while he was making very elementary
at> inquiries (for example, the permissibility of pre-marital sex)
at> only a few months ago.

  I think what is elementary and what is advanced is different for
each and every person, depending on their background and personality.

at> Nor would it be meaningful. If it was the information or the
at> ability to quote text that mattered most in religion, then CD-ROMs
at> and Xerox machines would be the epitome of spiritual
at> accomplishment. So in this respect your focus disappoints me.

  I agree that merely regurgitating quotations and information is not
spiritual development.  Perhaps I misunderstood your comments to
Arindam, but when you were telling him what "the Baha'i approach" was
to social and economic development, as if he didn't know because he
was "a new convert" and you had talked to some "long-time Baha'is".
My basic point was a discussion based on who "knew more" was not
productive, and that a simple solution to finding out the "Baha'i
approach" would be to simply turn to the Baha'i writings.

at> In the end, it is not what anyone knows but how he lives his
at> beliefs.

  I agree.  Baha'u'llah says, "let deeds, not words be your adorning".

at> Frankly, Arindam's tendency to brand other people's religious
at> beliefs as inadequate/outdated/etc. has not been the most
at> flattering testimonial to whoever or whatever has been influencing
at> him.

  I think the kinds of beliefs Arindam has so characterized are mainly
the ones which have led to much bloodshed and hatred, such as the
ongoing discussion about strife between Hindus and Muslims.  If
certain beliefs and doctrines have ceased to promote the welfare of
the generality of mankind, then someone should speak up and identify
them, don't you think?

at> I only have a respectful curiosity about the Bahai faith. I am not
at> making any major life-decisions based on my understanding of it.
at> Arindam is. So my understanding is not the issue. His is. I asked
at> him to reconsider if it is firm enough, and to seek guidance, from
at> other Bahais, if it is not.  I'll stand by that.

  This is entirely reasonable, and I respect the concern which led you
to do this.

mt> Yet while claiming to know more about the Baha'i teachings than
mt> Arindam, you mistakenly refer to the religion of Baha'u'llah as
mt> "Bahaism".

at> Why this cheap shot?! What mistake? Leaving out "'" or using an
at> "ism" construction? When original names are in other languages,
at> anything we do with the Latin alphabet or English words is an
at> attempt at communicating. If you understood what I meant, then
at> mine succeeded.

  I was not trying to insult or ridicule you with this comment -- it
was not meant as a "cheap shot".  The reason I pointed out your use of
the term "Bahaism" was to illustrate that while you may have had a
"respectful curiosity" for the Baha'i Faith for 10 years, you were
referring to it in a way which Baha'is find incorrect, if not
disrespectful (it makes the Faith sound like some political movement).
This was to show that being in contact with it for a long time would
not necessarily impart greater knowledge to you on all topics than to
Arindam, who had known of it for only a short time.

at> You are a moderator of a newsgroup called not soc.religion.Baha'i, 
at> but soc.religion.bahai. Have I ever complained ?!

  No, but I have.  I wish the news software was such that we could
name it so.

at> Bahai literature has references to many "isms" like Hinduism,
at> Buddhism, etc. For each individual usage, a more authentic word,
at> with proper accent marks to indicate pronunciation, could be
at> found. But is that the point of religious discussion?  Do you
at> personally say Buddhism, or "the teachings of Buddha" (no stress
at> on "a", as you know). By purist standards, EVERY ONE of the Bahai
at> documentaries I have seen VERY BADLY mispronounces "Krishna".  But
at> so what? With my unrefined approach to terminology and alphabet, I
at> usually focus on the idea if I have gotten it.

at> Common English uses single-word nouns like Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism,
at> Sikhism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Zorastianism, etc. Such terms,
at> inadequate though each is, are commonly used, including in the Bahai 
at> literature. 
at> So don't just complain, make a suggestion:  what single-word noun
at> would you prefer to denote what I called "Bahaism"?

  My point is that to show respect, we should use what the adherents
prefer to be referred to to as.  In the case of my religion, its
proper name is "The Baha'i Faith".  There is no single-word noun for
it that Baha'is use.  Similarly, today is is more respectful to refer
to the religion of Muhammad as "Islam", rather than "Muhammadanism",
and I adhere to that.  I recently posted something to
talk.religion.misc about referring to the "Qur'an", not the "Koran".
The terms "Buddhism", "Hinduism", and "Krishna" and their anglicized
pronounciations are acceptable to the Buddhists and Hindus that I
know, so that's why I use them.  It is about respect.  This is the
same discussion as for the terminolgy one uses for African-Americans.

mt> Could you please clarify what exactly you do know about the Baha'i..

at> I chose my words (to Arindam) carefully. I shall repeat them for
at> your inspection in a moment. Other than that, this does not seem
at> to be a good time for me to take a test, or to start writing my
at> autobiography.  How much do you know about Hinduism? Just curious.
at> :-)

  You were making statements to Arindam telling him he was plain wrong
in his understanding of teh Baha'i teachings on social and economic
development.  I thought it only fair that you explain why you felt
qualified to make such strong statements.  As for Hinduism, I could
certainly afford to learn more, but I don't go around telling Hindus
that they are wrong in their certain beliefs.

at> Hindus have welcomed Bahais with open arms: compare that with
at> Israel or with any Muslim country from Morocco to Indonesia. Is it
at> not some measure of spiritual depth to be open to outside
at> influences after many from have done you grave harm (again,
at> compare this with Israel). Do Hindus really deserve to be told how
at> outdated their spiritual base is?  By someone who is still
at> learning the basics of his new faith? My advice to Arindam was and
at> remains: learn and think for a while; you can preach later.
at> (Hopefully, by then he would also have learned how to talk about
at> others's religious beliefs.)

  Your comment about "attracting" people to the Baha'i Faith instead
of being like a salesman was well-p[ut, and is sound advice not only
for Baha'is, but people of every faith.  I agree with you here.

at> Personally, I have never noticed any great tendency on part of the
at> Bahais to "quit the pretense", "ONLY" teach children and make
at> religious commentary, or only deal with "the down-trodden". So I
at> tried to tell him why he should reconsider, even seek other
at> opinions, if he thought that this was "the Bahai thing" to do.

  That is fine.  Although, please realize the standard to which
Baha'is are called is not that of other Baha'is, but that of
Baha'u'llah.  If Arindam has the spiritual insight to recognize this
call, we should support him.  Of course you are right he must also
make sure he is not being too impetuous.

at> In retrospect, I should not have quoted anyone anonymously unless I was
at> prepared to get them to back it up, but this was not a seminar and the
at> thing on my mind was to make Arindam understand that I had not just 
at> dreamed this up. Anyway, I told him that it was my understanding

at>   that the Bahai movement has settled on a "top down" approach to social 
at>   change: through LEADERS and INSTITUTIONS. It is to go to and affect
at>   the centers of power directly. Not to challenge the contemporary
at>   mainstream society (as in revolutions), nor to try to bypass it (the
at>   "down-trodden" route), but to succeed IN it, even obeying its occasional
at>   unjust dictates, to place yourself in a position to affect change.

at> I'll stand by that as being *my* understanding as well as judgment.

  If I have time, I will make a brief posting from the Baha'i Writings
no this topic, and maybe a little about what Baha'i s are doing all
over the world.  Then we can decide what is true (my personal feeling
is that the Baha'i approach is neither "top-down" nor "down-top", but
it operates at every level simultaneously.

at> However, I have no interest in debating religious or social issues.
at> In the present thread, my only interest is Arindam's welfare.

  OK!

at> Words are cheap. It is the real life decisions that matter. So why
at> don't we take YOURSELF as an example at hand? :-)

   OK...

at> You seem to be actively engaged in professional life, working for
at> a computer company. I assume that you are in no great rush to quit
at> this "pretense", do nothing but write religious commentary, and
at> move to a Native reservation.

  Some days I am, others I am not ...

at> Even so, perhaps you don't exactly feel yourself to have been a
at> traitor to the Bahai credo?

  Not entirely, although I do not live up to the standard set by
`Abdu'l-Baha.  While your point that not every Baha'i has to do what
Arindam is doing is true, it is not compelling.  As he pointed out, we
must all do our karma -- it doesn't matter what the other is doing.
Baha'u'llah says, "The best of men are they that earn a livelihood by
their calling and spend upon themselves and upon their kindred for the
love of God, the Lord of all worlds."  I am not sure I am earning a
livelihood by my calling, although my present job is enabling me to
render service to humanity in several ways.

at> Let me be very frank. I suspect that Arindam is at present a
at> confused boy. Another one I knew, also a Bahai, recently committed
at> suicide.  So yes, I am concerned.  For all I know, Arindam may be
at> close to a "professional suicide" too.

  I truly appreciate your concern.

at> So, please, instead of engaging in quips about my admittedly
at> sloppy spelling and punctuation, and instead of offering me DATA
at> which I can either recite to you myself or get from any
at> encyclopedia (like how many Houses Of Worship are there and in
at> which city), why don't you consider trying to stabilize Arindam in
at> what may well be his moment of weakness?  After all, the VERY
at> LEAST you can do is to stand by the values and judgments by which
at> you are living YOUR life.

  I do stand by them, but I am constantly re-evaluating them (see the
thread on the four criteria for knowledge).  When I offered you data,
it was in response to your question about where are the Baha'is, the
placement and number of the Houses of Worship, etc.  As far as Arindam
goes, I think he shames all of us in his stability in clinging to the
good, and forsaking that which does not profit mankind.  I think he
has a lot more courage and devotion than most of us (including
myself).

  Best regards, I really appreciated your comments,
  Mark
--
Mark Towfiq, towfiq@Microdyne.COM			      H:+1 617 488 2818

O SON OF MAN!  Write all that We have revealed unto thee with the ink of light
upon the tablet of thy spirit.  Should this not be in thy power, then make
thine ink of the essence of thy heart.  If this thou canst not do, then write
with that crimson ink that hath been shed in My path.  Sweeter indeed is this
to Me than all else, that its light may endure for ever.
		-- Baha'u'llah, Arabic Hidden Words, #71
Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian