HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1992 09:26:00 CST
From:         SLATIN@UTXVM.BITNET
Subject:      Re: is the end of "the paper" in

Well, it's pretty hard to develop a rhetoric *before* the fact, isn't it?
Aristotle came along a few hundred years after the invention of writing... And
there is work being done.  I mentioned several people in my long message on
Tuesday: Stuart Moulthrop; George Landow; Locke Carter; me; Terry Harpold;
Michael Joyce-- all of whom have discussed and are discussing the rhetorical
problems posed by the new medium, all of whom are trying to get a handle on
ways to address those problems.

In traditional text, the writer's first obligation (to him or herself) is to
induce the reader to continue reading-- for readers *always* have other
choices, other texts they could well be reading, other activities in which
they might engage, other obligations to meet, miles to go before they sleep.
We have been in the business of learning how to motivate people to stay with
us, and of helping our students to discover their own strategies for doing so.

Hypertext changes the game, but it's not as though it takes us into terrain so
alien that nothing is recognizable, and not as though the writer has no way to
control anything ever.  One way to think about this is to consider the
question of what goes into a single node in a hypertext.  Jeff Conklin,
formerly of MCC, wrote in a 1986 _Survey of Hypertext_ that authors should put
into a single node material that they can't imagine wanting readers to
encounter separately.  I didn't put that quite right, but it's really a simple
point: what goes into a given node is material that, in your view as author,
*should* be taken together if it's to make sense.

John Slatin
UT Austin
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Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 16:47:01 -0700
From:         MACEYTAY@ARIZVMS.BITNET
Subject:      Write Environment

I, too, would like to know what became of this interesting-sounding
program.  It claimed to be recursive/regressive in process, not the
now traditional one and only process model so common in English Depts
today and thus attracted me greatly.  Macey Taylor  maceytay@ccit.arizona.edu
From: TWBATSON@GALLUA.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: Wireless Network!
Date: 6 Nov 92 20:32:14 GMT
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I was just up at the Computer-Supported Cooperative Work conference in
Toronto (my favorite conference) and heard from an Apple guy that in
a few months new Powerbooks will be introduced that will have built in
wireless network ability (no, guys, I don't have any financial interest
in Apple).

Imagine!  Now, the class won't have to go to the network; the network can
come to the class!  Imagine how easy it will be to switch from network
interaction to FTF!

This prospect sounds wonderful to me, assuming it actually works.

Trent
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Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 09:57:49 CST
From:         Eric Hobson <EHH909F@SMSVMA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Dr. Seuss
              9 Nov 1992 09:14:32 -0600 from <jamato@UX1.CSO.UIU C.EDU>

Joe:
   Don't have any critical info on Green Eggs and Ham, just assorted trivia:
     Did you know that the book was written on a bet? Suess took a bet that he
     couldn't write a children's book (of a traditional length that wasn't a
     picture book) using less than 50 words. He Won. He used 49 (count them if
     you like).
               Eric Hobson
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Date:         Sat, 7 Nov 1992 11:31:00 EDT
From:         "Composition Digest (Robert Royar,
              Moderator)" <R0MILL01@ULKYVX.BITNET>
Subject:      (Fwd: *C&CD*) RE: RE: Internet Course (Forwarded Message) (4)

Entry: 4
Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1992 09:00:34 EST
From: IN%"RobertRoyar@Delphi.COM" Robert Royar, (C&CD Moderator)
Message-id: <1992Nov07.090034.v7.009.3.Grendel.Lair@Cratylus>
x.bitnet>
Subject: RE: RE: Internet Course (Forwarded Message) (4)
Reply-to: "Computers & Composition Digest (R. Royar)" <R0MILL01@ULKYVX.BITNET>
Organization: Cratylus Educational Software

Buried in the original posting (<9211060222.AA16284@andromeda.rutgers.edu>
included in C&CD 7.008):

>Registration Fee: free

>- ----------------------------------------
>AUTOMATED REGISTRATION (Preferred)

>To register for "Navigating the Internet: an Interactive
>Workshop" send the following e-mail message (NO SUBJECT HEADING) to:

>listserv@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu

>In the body of the e-mail message send:

>sub navigate yourfirstname yourlastname

>(If the above instructions are unfamiliar to you, ask for
>assistance from your computer center.)

>E-MAIL REGISTRATION

>Send e-mail requesting registration to:

>rs@usl.edu

 -- Robert Royar (RobertRoyar@Delphi.com) New York Institute of Technology
    "Teaching is the focus of the Old Order; learning is the focus of the new."
                                                               - Andrea Fishman

------------------------------
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 16:17:00 CST
From:         "brown, lady" <ykflb@TTACS1.TTU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Lurkers or Wallflowers?

Concerning Lurkers vs. Wallflowers, what about just Readers.  And
didn't someone else say Silent Readers.  Some Readers become
Writers, too.  Neither Readers nor Writers have negative
connotations--at least not to me.  Lady Falls Brown, Texas Tech
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 10:53:55 -0500
From:         SULKES@UCBEH.BITNET
Subject:      Storyspace and composition

As a newcomer to this list server, I keep finding tantalizing
references to StorySpace, which evidently some instructors
are using for Freshman comp.  I've notified the distributor
for more information about the program, but I'm particularly
interested in hearing from folks who have devised uses for
it with Freshman or basic English themes.  I'd appreciate a
description of even one assignment, something that would
further tickle my interest.  Thanks, Stan Sulkes, Raymond
Walters College, Cincinnati, OH.
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Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 13:33:55 CST
From:         Ellen Redding Kaler <KALER@UKANVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Gender and Computer Anxiety

To MichaelGos and other interested:  More CA citations

Chen, M. "Gender and Computers: The Beneficial Effects of Experience on Attitud
es." _Journal of Educational Computing Research_ 2.3 (86): 265-82.

Collis, B. "Sex-related differences in attitudes toward computers: Implications
 for Counselors." _School Counselor_ 33.2 (85): 120-30.

Demetrulias, D.M. "Gender Differences and Computer Use." _Educational Horizons_
 63.3 (85): 133-35.

Gerver, E. "Computers and Gender." In T. Forester, ed. _Computers in the Human
Context: Information Technology, Productivity, and people._ Cambridge: MIT P, 1
989. 481-501.

Hawkins, J. "Computers and Girls: Rethinking the Issues." _Sex Roles_ 13 (1985)
: 165-180.

Kwan, S.K., et. al. "Gender Differences and Computing: Students' Assessment of
Societal Influences." _Education and Computing_ 1.3 (1985): 187-94.

Linn, M.C. "Gender Equity in Computer Learning Environments." _Computers and th
e Social Sciences_ 1.1 )(1985): 19-27.

Sanders, J.S. "Making the Computer Neuter." _Computing Teacher_ 12.7 (1985): 23
-27.

---. "The COmputer Gender Gap: Close it While There's Time." _The Monitor_ (Jan
/Feb 1986): 18-20.

Sanders, J. & A. Stone. _The Neuter Computer: Computers for Boys and Girls._ NY
: Neal-Schuman, 1986.

WIlder, Gita, et. al. "Gender and Computers: Two Surveys of Computer-Related At
titudes." _)Sex Roles_ 13.3-4 (Aug. 1985): 215-28.


Sorry so delayed...
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Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 14:05:35 -0700
From:         MACEYTAY@ARIZVMS.BITNET
Subject:      Re: stretch and jumbo comp classes

At the U of Arizona, there are several kinds of "different" Freshman
Comp courses besides the standard 2-semester sequence plus 1.  One kind
is designed with another department and restricted to the students in
a course there, e.g., Engineering ###, with the 2 tgether carrying 6
credits as a block.  There are honors sections which differ from 101-102
in level of expectation and from each other in content and focus.  There
are also some sections labeled "experimental", which focus on a specific
approach and/or content:  current ones include even more emphasis on
cultural diversity (the regular courses stress that a lot) and gay/lesbian
literature.  The trend in the department seems clearly to be for more
and more and more of this kind of diversity.

The problem is, in my opinion, that the students have no say about what
kind of focus they will find (except the engineers), and people are
working on what they could do t incorporate this aspect of student choice.

Macey Taylor  maceytay@ccit.arizona.edu
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 09:15:15 EST
From:         rselfe@MTU.EDU
Subject:      a sorrowful ditty

A sorrowful ditty by one of our local e-poets.

40 - Love, and it Went Over the Net...

I lost my one and only love
When writing went on -line.
I simply mailed my love to her,
And she replied to mine.

Passion flamed on terminals
And hearts were linked by wire.
Emotions, raw, were keyed, white-hot,
And set the net on fire.

Alas, our correspondence died,
A victim of travail.
Although she thinks I cut her off,
Her server nuked my mail.

Mick McKellar

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Dickie Selfe              rselfe@mtu.edu
Humanities Dept.          906-487-3225
Michigan Technological U.
Houghton, MI   49931
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Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 11:22:59 CST
From:         Wes Chapman <WESCHAP@VMD.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: is the end of "the paper" in

I strongly agree with John Slatin's point that hypertext allows the writer
more possibilities rather than less, and I'd like to extend that claim.  Not
only does hypertext allow writers to explore things that wouldn't fit into a
traditional argument, it allows for new kinds of argument as well.  (Those
who heard my talk on student hypertexts at 4C's last year, please forgive my
repetition of some of that material).  I first became interested in student
hypertexts when a student of mine who had been struggling with structure all
year (weak thesis, underdeveloped arguments, 5paragragh theme structures, that
sort of problem) took it upon himself to write a Storyspace essay on Joyce's
_Afternoon_.  It was by far the most structured piece of writing he did all
term.  It didn't look like a traditinal essay structure--it had a loop in it,
a branch which explored two contradictory answers to a question he had posed,
etc.--but it was highly structured, coherent, and (in a non-linear way)
unified.  Since then I've had many students write hypertexts, and although I
certainly wouldn't say that all of them found that hypertext made structuring
their work easier, I would say that many student have found new possibilities
for structure in hypertext, and that for nearly all students working with
hypertext made structural deadwood like the 5-paragraph theme seem less
"natural."  Hypertext isn't harder to control, if control is what you're
after (very much a moot issue!); it's just different.
Wes Chapman
Illinois Wesleyan University
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Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 16:35:51 -0700
From:         MACEYTAY@ARIZVMS.BITNET
Subject:      Re: is the end of "the paper" in sight?

Having made myself watch TV last night, for obvious reasons, for the
first time in several years, I am now *really* attracted by the idea of
a reader-based world in which document-writers would be in the position
of Dan Rather and the various politicians -- if they can't keep my
interest and make me feel that I might miss something I want to know,
I can push a button to exit.  This would put a *real* responsibility
on the writer to be "engaging" [I hate that word now; it's written on
every student paper a teacher likes.] and to label anything vital as
vital [linkage] but honestly or risk the fate of the little boy who cried
wolf.  I don't think they could get away with, "You'd better read all
of this because you might miss something you need to know."

Macey Taylor  maceytay@ccit.arizona.edu
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Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 13:08:00 CDT
From:         lady brown <YKFLB@TTACS.BITNET>
Subject:      thanks for clep info

 David Schwalm, Liz Hampton, Jim Raymond, Bud
Weiser, Gordon Thomas, Ed White, James Crosswhite, and Bill
Condon

Thank you all very much for sending me information about
the way your colleges and universities use or do not use the CLEP
test.  I'm sorry I've been slow to acknowledge your help, but the
information has enabled me to add to the discussion of the matter
at Texas Tech.

Lady Falls Brown
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Date:         Thu, 12 Nov 1992 22:20:17 CST
From:         Irvin Peckham <peckham@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Non-traditional students

Ann:
"Nursemaids" was a poor choice of words.  As I recall what I typed,
I was trying to locate the line between assuming full fault for our
students' failures and rejecting any fault.  At times, it seems to
me that we have to let some students fail--or at least I do.  My
soul (excuse me--best word I can find for it) isn't big enough to
accommodate the students who slip through my classes without really
being there.  Still, we have to do what we can and what our hearts
are big enough to do.  I hear you on this.
  I think your extra caring of telephoning is good.
  Actually, let me go someplace else on this problem.  I assume we
are a community in the classroom all (or at least most of us) engaged
in an ongoing project of helping each other along--and I am very
much in that, for they are helping me in untold ways (to digress--
they really do help me when they work as a community to move the
class forward; they give my life a kind of meaning that makes me
very glad to be alive).  Your telephoning is one strategy.  Let me
add to what some others have suggested.  First, in my class/community,
we all have one anothers' phone numbers.  They KNOW I consider class
attendance important because I run a workshop.  The members of the
different groups DEPEND on one another.  I am afraid that I make them
call me if they're going to be absent.  We are all also on e-mail,
so they send me messages if they're having any kind of difficulty.
The point is COMMUNICATION.  When it's open (as you have opened
it), the class moves forward.  Everybody learns because they know
that kind of community learning is exactly what is going on in the
classroom.  I don't know whether my students are at-risk or not.
They sure aren't to me.  They come to class and they do the work
both because the communication is open and because they know
we depend on one another to move forward.  I realize that I have
moved into the ain't-I-a-great-teacher mode, and I am sorry for
that.  Maybe I have shown how I ain't such a great teacher, a dark
side of me that is all the darker because I don't know it's there.
Irv
--
Irvin Peckham
Internet: peckham@unomaha.edu
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Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 17:31:00 EST
From:         00fthoulette@BSUVAX1.BITNET

From:   BSUVC::00FTHOULETTE "Al Bain"  4-NOV-1992 17:29:07.42
To:     BSUVC::00DJFITZSTEP
CC:     00FTHOULETTE
Subj:   RE: for your info

Write Environment is still under development.  In its current manifestation
it is Write Environment version 2.0 beta.  This version has some work to
go tomorrow afternoon, and then the interface will be finished.  This
version works out some of the theoretical inconsistencies discovered in
version 1.X, which is currently available on the systems in the BSU
English Labs.

Write Environment is currently under option with HarperCollins, and,
given no more headaches caused by the switch from version 6 to version
7 of the Microsoft C compiler, should be reaching completion this
spring or summer as a commercial program.  I would look for a sneak preview
of this version, which is pretty industrial strength, this spring.
Release should come sometime within the next 18 months, so long as
the gremlins don't present more glitches on the technical side.

Forrest
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Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1992 09:36:00 CST
From:         SLATIN@UTXVM.BITNET
Subject:      Re: is the end of "the paper" in

Bill, I didn't mean, and don't think I said, that students are "great writers"
just waiting to be released from the evil oppressive tyranny of the
five-paragraph essay.  What I meant, and what I thought I said though I
probably didn't, was that such rigid structures as that imposed by the
five-paragraph essay are themselves conceptual and psychological barriers
impeding student writing and student thinking.  You've been teaching longer
than I have; you've therefore probably had even more conversations than I have
in which you attempted to help a student understand that the paragraph isn't
some Platonic Form to which all student paragraphs aspire, that the paragraph
is  not the primary organizational unit, that deciding how many paragraphs
you're going to have before you know what you're talking about is to put
yourself in a situation like the one described in the immortal words of Dan
Quayle: "If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure."

John Slatin
UT Austin
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 17:52:00 EST
From:         KARCH%MUNIN%HUGIN@NORWICH.BITNET
Subject:      RE: lurkers or wallflowers

The connotation of "wallflower" is quite negative.  If you call
silent ones "wallflowers" you will add to a feeling of alienation.
Personally, I never stay anyplace I feel like a "wallflower."
                                    Linda Karch
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Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 11:30:00 CST
From:         ROSE NORMAN <UAHRXN01@ASNUAH.ASN.NET>
Subject:      Clinton/Gore and T-Shirts

I have been enjoying the reports of day-after (aka New Day-Hooray)
responses to the question, "How'd you like the election?"  Friends say
they are surprised at who's happy and who's not.  My favorite is the
physician who went to work where she thought *everyone* was voting
Bush or Perot but her, and discovered that all the technicians voted
Clinton-Gore.  "But you had on a Perot t-shirt" she said to a lab
assistant.  "Hey, doc, it's just a t-shirt!"  I want one that says
Hillary for the Supreme Court--it's *not* just a t-shirt"

Rose
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Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 10:10:00 EST
From:         BURT@BRANDEIS.BITNET
Subject:      RE: Restructuring Writing Programs

I'm at the moment trying to fight off a proposal very like the one you
describe at Skidmore. Our experience with a similar program some years
ago was that (at the freshman level, not the upperclass level) such
courses lose track of their writing agenda. There is a venerable tradition
of such courses, however (I learned to write in one), and I would hesitate
to call the whole proposal mistaken. But too often "writing must be taught
in a disciplinary context" means "writing is too tedious for smart people like
me to concern themselves with." Our problem is that the two bad alternatives
on either side of us (writing as a skills course with no content, and literature
courses pretending to be writing courses) are much easier to describe than
what we want to do is.
John B
From: tmcgee@GARNET.BERKELEY.EDU ((Tim McGee))
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: Talk at U.C.B.
Date: 9 Nov 92 22:06:44 GMT
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For those MBUers within striking distance of U.C. Berkeley, I'd
like to announce the U.C.B. Writing Focus Group's first event of
the Fall.

The Instructional Technology Program's Writing Focus Group
presents:

Using Computer Networks to Privilege Student Writers

A hands-on talk (using the Daedalus Integrated Writing
Environment)
by
Fred Kemp, Director of Composition, Texas Tech University

Wednesday, November 11, 1992, at 4 p.m.
Evelyn L. Corey Learning Lab
Room 1635 Tolman Hall
U.C. Berkeley
Refreshments will be served

For further information, call 642-9297 or email
itpwrite@garnet.berkeley.edu

Tim McGee
Coordinator
Writing Focus Group
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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 11:51:11 CST
From:         ellis <nse2@RA.MSSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: stretch and jumbo comp classes

Yes, of course, it is better to invest in success.  But, how do you
shift the investment, if the investment stays the same --> if a
dept has only $X and suddenly has to add "support" classes.  You
don't get your senior professors to take additional courses-- most
likely you don't even get them to take REGULAR comp courses  ;-)!

When university funding is being cut, yet admissions are being
opened up -- seems to me that there are big problems.

N. Ellis
From: RHODA%MUNIN%HUGIN@NORWICH.BITNET (Rhoda Carroll, Vermont College,
              Montpelier)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: Re: Yankee Trader Needs Info
Date: 6 Nov 92 00:14:00 GMT
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Wow, Nancy, great! Thanks!  Your posting is LOADED with possibilities.
Clearly, you've freed yourself from the "how-to-read-literature"
strictures.  I'm impressed & heartened.  Perhaps I will find the
nerve to break free of my department's traditions.

You said you wanted *everying I've got.*  I know you're not
entirely serious, but would you like a copy of all the
answers I'm getting to my original posting?  My "intro
to lit" assignemtns will be just too tame for you.

thanks again!

Rhoda Carroll*Vermont College of Norwich University*Rhoda@Norwich.Bitnet
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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 18:39:41 MST
From:         "(Dawn Rodrigues)" <dawn@RAMBLER.ENGLISH.COLOSTATE.EDU>
Subject:      Donald Stewart

David Roberts posted a note of farewell to Donald Stewart.
Stewart died about six months ago, after a long bout with cancer.
Which issue of Rhetoric Review includes several brief tributes to
Don?

I remember reading about his desire to fight the social
constructionists amongst us.  Somehow, it's good to know that the
internal battles in our field kept Donald Stewart actively
involved in his profession up until the end.

I might add that the excitement for our field shown by many MBUers
is a similarly special kind of involvment in a cause.

Dawn Rodrigues
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