From: shamshoo@shelley.u.washington.edu (Shams Hasan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: L.S.U. Professor says Indians Suck !!
Date: 23 Jan 1993 10:23:07 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: shelley.u.washington.edu
Summary: Well, is he that far off target ? ... Come, now really !
Keywords: Hang Loose On the Caboose !

In article <00967031.28928DC0.11865@rankin.aspentec.com> reginald@rankin.aspentec.com (Suresh Reginald) writes:
>     The following appears in the Jan '93 issue of 'Chemical
>Engineering Progress', a 'standard' popular ChemE journal.
>
>What Richard G. Rice of Louisiana State University says is
>1.   Foreign graduate students stay behind and depress U.S.
>     salaries. (Indians are singled out for special mention)
>2.   The ones who return combine their acquired training with cheap
>     labor back home to undercut American manufacturing.
>3.   Foreign graduate students subvert the U.S. educational
>     establishment by their presence, deprive American
>     undergraduates of American role models, and create a 'non-
>     English speaking professorate'.
>
>What I would like to know is
>1.   Can anyone obtain this joker's address and post it so that he
>     can share in any resulting discussion ? Or is his sense of
>     logic too muddled to bother ?
>2.   Does anyone know if he had an Indian graduate student working
>     for him who recently ran off with his wife ?
>3.   Can we expect more of this attitude in graduate schools with
>     the coming 'browning' of America, or are only Chemical
>     Engineers morons ?
>
>Read on ...
>
>Suresh 'another chocolate-brown Chemical Engineer Indian who
>depressed those U.S. salaries' Reginald
>
>Beginning of extract from C.E.P.
>--------------------------------------------------------
>     The article by Prof. Gianni Astarita that appeared in CEP a
>few years ago ("Frontiers in Chemical Engineering", Mar.1990, pp.
>55-59) decried the money-driven state of academic research and the
>demise of core areas as topics of study. His remarks could provide
>the nucleus of a wide-ranging debate on how our universities get
>into this silly situation in the first place. Part of the answer
>has to do with the takeover of our graduate schools of science and
>engineering by foreign nationals. More than half of all advanced
>degrees in these critical areas are awarded to foreign students.
>
>     Two pernicious effects arising from this assumption come
>immediately to mind. These well trained foreign scientific-
>engineers return to their homeland, exploit their training (often
>using cheap home labor to advantage), and quickly capture American
>markets. Almost as bad, the many that stay in the U.S. (e.g., over
>80% of Asian Indian students) often work for less than Americans,
>and thereby depress salary levels. The overall impact of this is a
>"lose-lose" situation with respect to foreign students. Our money-
>driven research programs cannot (apparently) survive without them,
>and the economic incentives to our own citizens are diminished with
>them. There is a broad range of secondary effects, not the least of
>which will be, finally, a non-English speaking professorate.
>
>     The solution to this problem will be painful so a gradual
>approach is suggested. Foreign graduate enrollment should be
>limited to 25% or less through the 90's, and we should aim for 10%
>or less into the 21st century. As dumping of foreign manpower is
>halted, salary levels for citizen-scientists will accelerate. This
>will make engineering and science more attractive, thereby
>stimulating enrollments. As a standard, baccalaureate engineers
>should be rewarded to at least to MBA levels, and PhDs should be
>compensated at a level equal to medical doctors and lawyers.
>
>     But, how to do it ? Perhaps the most direct lever for change
>is federal funding. By denying federal funding (fractionally or
>all) to support salaries for foreign nationals, the supply of
>graduate students from other countries will gradually diminish to
><= 10%. This is sufficient to allow the sought for "cross
>fertilization" of ideas and cultures, but not enough to maintain
>the current hegemony by foreign students. Moreover, the "role
>modeling" effect of American graduate students helping our
>undergraduates will boost morale.
>
>     A good part of this intractable situation was created by so-
>called bottom-line academic managers (deans and the like), who
>place grantsmanship and money above scholarly pursuit and national
>interest. To quote Astarita: "Engineering schools are often
>regarded by administrators as money-making institutions that should
>contribute to the welfare of the university. Scholarship is viewed
>as something that the humanities should cultivate." Regarding the
>ruinous effects of grant chasing, he writes: "But everyone is
>perfectly happy with the situation: the department sees good money
>coming in and the dean is happy about the overhead, as are the
>provost and the president; the graduate students know that they
>have a good chance of entering academia because they are in a
>money-making area, and that is all that matters." He neglected to
>point out that most of these are foreign students. Worse, ordinary
>professors, under obligations to complete contracts they were
>pressured by deans to grab, must use the only manpower available:
>foreign students.
>
>     The process of regaining control of our national destiny in
>science and engineering rest primarily with the professorate. They
>must inure themselves to the threats of deans and become active
>participants in setting long-term policy for the university and the
>nation.
>
>     The government and the professorate can work together to
>regain control of graduate education in science and engineering.
>And, because of the trickle-down effect in higher education, we may
>also save what is left of our secondary education system.
>
>Richard G. Rice
>Department of Chemical Engineering
>Louisiana State University, Baton Rouge, LA
>--------------------------------------------------------------
>End of extract from C.E.P.
>
>Suresh Reginald
>Aspen Technology Inc.
>reginald@aspentec.com
>
>Dammit ! Who stole my sig. !!??
>

Dear Suresh,

If you were in India and foreigners were coming in at the pace they are from
every other country in the world, and foreign students dominating your
graduate programs etc, you and your likes in India would be playing a very
different tune.

No doubt the article by this guy reeks of nationalism and possible racism,
especially regarding the DEEP SOUTH'S attitudes towards any other race than
white, it speaks volumes about the general state of mind of the majority of
Americans today.

Why he singled out Indians, only he can explain, but, I think it is true for
every other foreign student that is viewed in the general manner as outlined
by this Louisiana dude. The people there are usually quite vocal in their
opinions and do not follow politically correct behaviour, especially when it
comes to foreigners and minorities. They are the MOUTH OF THE SOUTH...

At one time, not too long ago in the 50's / 60's, Masters in all technical and
medical fields were sought after, especially from foreigners with open offers 
of permanent residence in the United States, and a secured job.

In the last thirty years, the world and the U.S has changed dramatically.

So, I would not make light of this dude's opinion, even though it shows blatant
disregard of professionalism and some very far fetched ideas, with which I have
my own doubts about.


Best Regards,
Shams Hasan.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.china