HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rivk@quads.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis)
Subject: Re: Arab Gestures
Reply-To: rivk@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 20:56:42 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.182315.11052@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM> nabil@ncrcol.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM (Nabil Idriss) writes:
>In article <1992Jul28.171746.23926@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein) writes:
>>
>>Can anybody list any substantial Arab gestures of goodwill towards Israel,
>>say comparable to ending the intifada, stopping terrorist attacks on
>>civilians, ending the boycott, ending the secondary and tertiery aspects of
>>the boycott, ceasing to distribute anti-semitic literature such as the
>>Protocols of the Elders of Zion, or something comparable?

Nabil is good enough to provide a list. You will notice that each item
on the list is balanced by a corresponding Israeli item:

>1> Me talking to you

Me talking to you. It goes both ways.

>2> Peace with Egypt

Peace between Egypt and Israel. It goes both ways.

>3> Meeting at the Peace table

Meeting at the peace table. It goes both ways.

>4> Accepting two states idea

Here's the one that is not entirely balanced, but then, it's not
entirely true, either, as the question of whether they have indeed
accepted the two states idea at all is subject to grave suspicion
due to their various statements and actions. Fact is they've gone
up and down like a ping-pong ball on this one, and I don't think 
anyone including Arafat really has a clue what the real position is
anymore, if in fact they could be said to have one.

However, to the extent it's true, it's balanced by Rabin's plan
for autonomy and elections in the near future.

>Give the Palestinians a state and you will not need any goodwill gestures, you
>will have peace.

With whom? The Palestinians? Maybe; I wouldn't count on it. With Syria,
who is Israel's strongest enemy right now (aside from possibly the
United States)? Not bloody likely.

>>Or can anybody explain why it is always Israel that is called on to take
>>confidence-building measures? 

You didn't answer this one.

>>bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu

>FOR EVERY ACTION, THERE IS AN EQUAL AND OPPOSITE REACTION

That's good. Want to tell us what the equal reaction is to the Israeli
autonomy proposal and their cancellation of the settlement contracts?
I still haven't seen one.

>Nabil Idriss

	-Nora

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: rivk@quads.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis)
Subject: Re: Anwar Mohammad and Khomeinism.
Reply-To: rivk@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 17:00:29 GMT

In article <3599@keele.keele.ac.uk> phd21@seq1.kl.ac.uk (A. Jaber) writes:

>	Regardless of my many quarrels with Anwar Mohammad before 
>	I never thought that he could have a Khomeinist hidden agenda
>	until I discovered his admiration to Fuad Ajami. 

Your logic is out to lunch. I admire Franklin Roosevelt; Franklin 
Roosevelt tried to pack the Supreme Court. This does not mean that
I have a hidden agenda to pack the Supreme Court. Get a reality check.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Want facts? "WHO RUNS THE MEDIA? The Alarming Facts"
From: scott@anasaz (Scott Gibson)
Date: 13 Jul 92 19:50:36 GMT
Reply-To: scott@qip.UUCP (Scott Gibson)
Organization: Anasazi, Inc.  Phoenix, Az

In article <1992Jul7.235518.7804@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>
>Criticizing Israel for not acting like Kansas or Denmark while Israel 
>is actually forced to deal with the likes of Arafat, Assad and Saddam 
>is stupid, if not biased.  Feh.

Oh.  The "ends and the means" argument.

Feh.



-- 
But you knew your figure cut a cipher/ Through every crafted plan/ And 
playing our game for real/ Saw through our plumbing jobs/ And wayward glands/
To a meaning of your own, in bones."  - Iain M. Banks, "Use of Weapons"
Scott Gibson                   {ames!ncar!noao!asuvax,mcdphx}!anasaz!qip!scott
Disclaimer:  These opinions are my own, and may change without prior notice.
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: FACTS EVERY ISRAEL BASHER MUST AVOID!
Date: 27 Jul 92 21:27:54 GMT
	<1992Jul22.130849.1050@wpi.WPI.EDU> <22002@venera.isi.edu>
	<Bryv1o.Fvu@watserv1.waterloo.edu>
Organization: USC/Information Sciences Institute
In-reply-to: idfriedm@hertz.waterloo.edu's message of 25 Jul 92 22:41:48 GMT

In article <Bryv1o.Fvu@watserv1.waterloo.edu> idfriedm@hertz.waterloo.edu (id friedman) writes:
>
> In article <22002@venera.isi.edu> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
> >In article <1992Jul22.130849.1050@wpi.WPI.EDU> nyh@wpi.WPI.EDU (Nevo Y Hed) writes:
> >>
> >> I donno abput prepared piles but they knew that there was a rallie -
> >> it was banned and they were informed - see Ben David's post WRT
> >> investigation.
> >
> >Is it the contention of Mr. Hed, and Mr. Ben David before him, that the
> >Palestinians are supposed to take for granted that Israeli court orders
> >will be obeyed by the religious/nationalist fanatics in question, and
> >that if not, then the Israeli police and/or military will successfully
> >enforce such orders?
> >
> >Certainly even you guys can recall very many actions taken by settlers
> >and their friends that were contrary to court orders, laws, military
> >commands, and government decisions.  Many of these were retroactively
> >accepted and even supported by the authorities in question.  Need I
> >mention examples?
> >
> >I don't think one has to accuse the Palestinians of duplicity or malice
> >just because they took some defensive measures against a known plan by
>
>	   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Throwing huge stones by the scores at innocent worshippers in  Israel's
> holiest Jewish site, a "defensive" measure!!

The defensive measure I was referring to was the preparation of piles of
stones on the temple mount.  That act has been mentioned here and
elsewhere as "proof" that the Palestinians intended to "riot".  I
explained was this presents no proof of such a contention.
--
Yigal Arens   "He seems like an average type of man.  He's not, like, smart.
USC/ISI        I'm not trying to bag on him or anything, but he has the same
arens@isi.edu  mentality I have -- and I'm in the eighth grade."     Vanessa
               Martinez, after VP Quayle's visit to her school-LA Times 5/21
From: ilyess@athena.concordia.ca (Ilyess Bdira)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: territories vs the territories
Date: 22 Jul 92 13:23:16 GMT
Organization: ECE - Concordia University

In article <1992Jul21.141541.25878@ennews.eas.asu.edu> makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:
 
 	Either this is not true, they sliped up at least once, or it only
 applies to within a certain time frame.  I know someone who was born
 in Jerusalem and in their passport the country of origin is Israel.
 Now, this might apply only to those born after 1948, since the
 individual I know (my best friend's mother in law) was born prior to
 that.

what is really happening here is the U.S offering lip service to the
Arabs and the rest of the world while in practice obeying all orders 
that come from the Israeli lobbey.
 
 	At any rate this whole argument is ridiculous.  It is not for
   anyone else to determine what another country declares is its
   capital.
 --

That is why you should not object if Palestine  (or even Jordan) declares 
Jerusalem as its capital!
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: horen@rs.com (Jonathan B. Horen)
Subject: Re: territories vs the territories
Organization: Renaissance Software, Inc.
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 19:56:53 PDT

In article <21999@venera.isi.edu> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
>
>My daughter got her passport in 1990, and was not permitted by the LA
>Passport Agency to have "Israel" listed as place of birth.
>
>Well, I figured the only way to finally resolve this was to contact
>those who *really* know.  So I called the State Department's Passport
>Agency Coordinator's office in Washington, DC (202-647-6634).  My
>questions were relayed to "the duty officer" (Barbara something-or-
>other), who responded saying that someone born in Jerusalem could either
>have Israel listed or not -- it was their choice.  She says a person
>will not be forced to have it one way or another.  My questions were
>being relayed back and forth through the person who answered the phone,
>and I didn't have a chance to ask if this had always been the policy
>(i.e., if my daughter was advised erroneously in 1990) or if this
>represented some change from the past.
>
>In any case, it is clear that Jerusalem is treated as not necessarily
>part of Israel.  Although I didn't ask, I doubt someone born in
>Amsterdam, say, could have their place of birth listed simply as
>"Amsterdam" and not "Amsterdam, The Netherlands".

I hear it differently: that the US Passport Agency allows *the one
requesting the passport* to treat Jerusalem as not necessarily part
of Israel. As you wrote, they stated that "-- it was their choice".

 +------------------------------+-----------------------------------------+
 | Jonathan B. Horen            |         _ ___ _ ___   _  __ _ _ _       |
 | Tech Writer/Sys Admin        |         /   / /   /   / / / / / /       |
 | Renaissance Software, Inc.   |        /   / / / /   /_/ /_/ /          |
 | email: j.horen@rs.com        |       /             /                   |
 +------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: rivk@quads.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis)
Subject: Re: Israel Cancels Building in the West Bank
Reply-To: rivk@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 20:17:13 GMT

In article <24154@castle.ed.ac.uk> egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson) writes:
>In article <1992Jul25.174753.11742@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein) writes:
>=>
>=>I'm sure that the Israelis in the Galilee, still being subjected to rocket
>=>attacks from those "disarmed Palestinian fighters in Lebanon," would be
>=>delighted to learn that those attacks are merely figments of their
>=>imaginations.
>
>Can you please back up this assertion with estimates of the numbers of
>Israelis killed by attacks from Lebanon and the Golan Heights, and compare
>those figures with the numbers of Arabs killed by Israeli attacks on
>Lebanon and Syria? For the purpose of this exercise, feel free to exclude
>the civilians killed during the Israeli invasion of Lebanon. 

Can you please explain the source for the supposition that a state
returning fire against someone who attacks it is required to inflict
casualties less than or equal to those which they have taken? Israel
has a more efficient military by a long way; this means that when they
answer rocket fire somebody is going to get hurt. That the Palestinian
forces in Lebanon are not as good at what they are trying to do is not
Israel's problem.

>-Jeremy Henderson        egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk   

	-Nora


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: nyh@emilio.WPI.EDU (Nevo Y Hed)
Subject: Lets do some stone physics ...
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 02:02:48 GMT

In article <1992Jul23.215254.16589@colorado.edu> 
perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
[...]
>The rocks I remember from the video looked to be 2-5 inches in diameter.
>That still means a rock weighing 1-3 pounds (you're talking about
>something the size of a baseball or softball but several times as
>dense).  These thrown as hard as possible over a wall, and having a
>20-30m drop down to the plaza in front of the wailing wall.  Considering
>that fastballs which hit on the head can cause rather severe injuries,
>and that these rocks are both heavier and have 20-30 meters of height,
>that's a significant danger.  Not as significant as a bullet, but pretty
>significant nevertheless.



OK ... Lets make it more official - I have dran here [with my
emacs-art talent] a description of the travel of a stone.  I am sure
that there are many people here that are more experts then myself in
physics.  I didn't trust myself with alculating V3y.  If noone will
dare at this chalange I will lookup my physics book and try not to
fu**up or ask my dad.  We also need astimates for V1x & V1y - I am
taking Eric's etsimate for H - if you know a better number - go ahead.
After we get a final number for |V3| we can then ask any ol' MD what
it actually means if it hits someone in the head.




	
                        __--------__
                      _-            -_
  V1y                ~ 	              ~
       	            '	               `       ---> V2x  |
  ^       _        /                    \                |
  |   V1  /|      /                      \     \         V V2y
  |      /       /	                  \     \
                /	                   \    _| V2
      _  _  _  / _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  \  _  _  _  _  _  _  _  _
            o  	                       ^     \
           '|` 	                ----   |      \
           / \ 		       |    |  |       \
          -----------------    |    |  |        \
                               |    |  |         \
        --->V1x 	            |  |H         \
                                    |  |       	   \
   _            	            |  |            \          |
  |\            	            |  |             \         |
    \           	            |  |              \	   \   V V3y
     \          	            |  |               \    \
      Al-Aqtza Mousq                |  |      ---> V3x  \    _| V3
	                            |  |                 \
	                            |  V                  o
	          The Wall --->     |                    '|`
	                            |                    / \
   H   = 25m ?
   V1x = ?
   V1y = ?
   V2y = V1y
   V2x = V1x
   |V2|= |V1|
   V3x = V2x
   V3y = ??
   |V3|= Sqrt(V3x^2+V3y^2) = ??





	Good Luck
		-Nevo


-- 
Nevo Y.	 Hed              nyh@wpi.wpi.edu
++1-508-754-2491          CS student, Worcester Polytechnic Institute.
"I like my cigar too, but I take it out of my mouth from time to time" G.Marx
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Subject: Re: RUSH LIMBAUGH'S SECRET NON-AGENDA
Reply-To: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 19:01:17 GMT


In a previous article, arf@ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling) says:

>
>It seems a automatic to bring up Egypt as it is to distort the number.  The 
>;;number is $1.7 billion and not 3.

You're half right.  The number is $2.1 billion, if we ignore the extra
tidbit of $7 billion Egypt got last year. 
-- 
bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Mr. Arens, what would you have done?
Date: 28 Jul 92 21:26:30 GMT
Organization: USC/Information Sciences Institute
In-reply-to: ejk@coral.JPL.NASA.gov's message of 28 Jul 92 19:22:17 GMT

In article <1992Jul28.192217.21828@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov> ejk@coral.JPL.NASA.gov (Elya Kapelyan) writes:
>
>  While reading Mr. Arens's responses on Lehi's contacts with the Nazi's,
> a question kept popping into my head, and since I wanted a public response,
> I decided to ask the question here.  So here it is:
>
>  What would you have done if you were in place of Avraham Stern?  (I
> believe that he was still alive during these attempted contacts.)

It sounds from your question like you believe that the approach taken by
LEHI was somehow the only reasonable one possible under the
circumstances.  Do you?

What confuses me is that you appear to be ignoring the fact that by far
the great majority of Jews in Palestine, under the leadership
Ben-Gurion, managed to get through WWII without seeking an alliance with
the Nazis and/or offering to fight on the Axis side.  As bizarre as it
may seem, many Jews from Palestine actually joined the British army(!).

So why ask *me* what I would have done?  Are you not happy with what the
mainstream Zionist movement chose to do?

--
Yigal Arens   "He seems like an average type of man.  He's not, like, smart.
USC/ISI        I'm not trying to bag on him or anything, but he has the same
arens@isi.edu  mentality I have -- and I'm in the eighth grade."     Vanessa
               Martinez, after VP Quayle's visit to her school-LA Times 5/21
Organization: Masters student, Information Networking Institute, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 17:44:03 -0400 
From: Radu Eugen Edelstein <re0x+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: propaganda

Josh Saypol writes:
Turning the Arab propaganda back against them is also
propaganda


I say:
Leaving propaganda ananswered would mean Israel agrees with it.
Unfortunately your remark is typical: whatever Israel does
(except from dissapearing from the map), has to be criticized.

Rad
From: rivk@quads.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israel Cancels Building in the West Bank
Date: 27 Jul 92 20:13:35 GMT
Reply-To: rivk@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations

In article <1992Jul26.145638.8927@dscomsf.desy.de> hallam@zeus02.desy.de writes:

>This is only the essential first step to show that Israel is serious
>about the peace negotiations. It is futile to expect more than than. 

And where is the essential first step to show that the Arabs are serious
about the peace negotiations? I haven't seen one yet.

>It also looks like the talks are going to have to encompass some
>discussion of Lebanon since returning the situation there to normality
>is rather urgent and probably a precondition for peace. Syria should be
>wanting to get out as well if they have any sense. Otherwise the
>Lebaneese will unite to get rid of them. Armies do not make good
>ambassadors.

Agreed. Syria seldom demonstrates sense on such issues, however.

>Phill Hallam-Baker

	-Nora
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: horen@rs.com (Jonathan B. Horen)
Subject: Re: territories vs the territories
Organization: Renaissance Software, Inc.
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 19:38:24 PDT

In article <21983@venera.isi.edu> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
>In article <91477@bu.edu> gene@cs.bu.edu (Gene Itkis) writes:
>>
>> In article <1992Jul21.063519.4451@rs.com> horen@rs.com writes:
>> +In article 21981@venera.isi.edu, arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
>> +-I'm afraid you know wrong.  The US does not even recognize western
>> +-Jerusalem (i.e., the part taken by Israel in 1948) as part of Israel.
>> +-I've mentioned in the past that the US State Department will not record
>> +-a person's country of origin in a passport as 'Israel' if they were born
>> +-in Jerusalem.
>> +
>> +Ah-h-h, I'm afraid *you* know wrong. Both of my daughters were born at the 
>> +"Bikur Cholim" hospital, smack-dab in the middle of Jerusalem, and both of 
>> +their *American* passports list place of birth as "Jerusalem, Israel".
>>
>> Perhaps you both know right: Yigal probably meant those born before 48.
>
>No I meant even born after 48.  The issue is, does the passport agency
>*know* that your daughters were born in Jerusalem?  If your daughters
>(or you) filled out simply "Israel" as the place of birth on the
>application, the issue does not come up.  But not so if they (or you)
>wrote "Jerusalem, Israel".  The latter is what my daughter did not long
>ago, and she was explicitly told that had she written simply "Israel" no
>questions would have been asked, but since she mentioned Jerusalem,
>Israel could not be recorded as the place of birth.  At my daughter's
>request the person at the passport agency checked again that this was in
>fact the policy.

Of course the Passport Agency knows. In order to obtain a US passport they
first had to be US citizens (which they obtained a few years after birth in
Tel-Aviv) -- proving US citizenship required submitting their Birth
Certificates and authorized translations of them from Hebrew into English. If
I had simply filled-in "Israel", the forms would have been rejected.

My daughters' original US passports were issued in Tel-Aviv (listing
Jerusalem, Israel as POB), and their replacement ones were issued at the
Passport Agency in San Francisco.

America just ain't what it used ta be.

 +------------------------------+-----------------------------------------+
 | Jonathan B. Horen            |         _ ___ _ ___   _  __ _ _ _       |
 | Tech Writer/Sys Admin        |         /   / /   /   / / / / / /       |
 | Renaissance Software, Inc.   |        /   / / / /   /_/ /_/ /          |
 | email: j.horen@rs.com        |       /             /                   |
 +------------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Radio Host Fired After Jewish Prote
Date: 30 Jul 92 09:21:13 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <1992Jul30.005847.16266@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
=>In article <1992Jul29.203140.10669@dscomsf.desy.de> hallam@zeus02.desy.de writes:
=>>In article <1992Jul29.181318.1759@colorado.edu>,
=>>perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
=>>
=>>|>>The main qualification for entry in Sternlight's kill file seems to
=>>|>>be posting something which threatens to undermine the delicate house
=>>|>>of cards that constitutes his "opinions". I'm afarid it isn't a very
=>>|>>exclusive club - sorry to disappoint you!
=>>|>
=>>|>Unfortunately, the only house of cards between you two is your opinions,
=>>|>Henderson.  Not his.  
=>>
=>>Come off it, Muppet man may have a problem but Sternlight is in the
=>>habit of inflating the importance of his killfile. He once emailed me
=>>telling me that he was considering putting me in it because I said that
=>>anyone starting a thread with a capitalized title, the word "FACTS" and
=>>the word "BASHER" in the title was wanting a flame war, not a debate,
=>>and that the thread would consist of ad-hominem bashing and be entirely
=>>devoid of facts. Well was I right or was I right?
=>
=>In my opinion, partly right.  I would agree with you that anyone
=>starting a thread with a capitalized title wants only a flame war, not a
=>debate; we need only look at those who have used that tactic frequently
=>on this and other groups - Elghani, arf, etc.  However, words like
=>"facts" and "basher", capitalized or not, have uses both inflammatory
=>and non, depending on context, so I would disagree with you there.  A
=>similar comment applies to your corollary.

How convenient that this allows you to criticise Arf and co., without
setting yourself against the instigator of the "FACTS EVERY ISRAEL BASHER.."
thread. No doubt you will dig up some similar ad hoc justification of
the "JUST YOU HENDERSON" thread. Remarkable, the flexibility of your
standards.

-- 
-Jeremy Henderson        egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk   

(or am I?)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast