HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Roger Adams <RADAMS@cerritos.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Influences on Yogananda (was Re: effort vs clinging)
Date: 20 Nov 1992 01:05:06 -0800
Organization: Cerritos College, Norwalk CA
Distribution: world
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In article <1eh108INNj33@sandman.caltech.edu>, 
kish@kish.rutgers.edu (Kish) writes:

> I'm not a big fan of sectarianism either, but I am a great believer in
> the influence of individuals on each other, both synchronically and
> diachronically.  For each of these great teachers, the manifestation
> of their realization in the relative world is both wonderfully nuanced
> and distinct from his "peers".  And each one also had his respective
> influences and formative stages which precipitated his ultimate
> awakening.  A precise and detailed narrative of lives and traditions
> such as these is, IMHO, one of the joys of life, and can be viewed as
> an extended spiritual biography.  The study of such a spiritual
> biography, when accompanied by practice, is hardly incompatible with
> walking a spiritual path.
> 

Please read The Autobiography of a Yogi by Paramahansa Yogananda for a
detailed description of his influences. Since he was very young, he would
visit saints and masters in his native India. Lahiri Mahasaya was a great
influence (his paramguru and the guru of his parents) and of course his
own guru Swami Sri Yukteswar.  The greatest influences were from these 
God-realized masters which he talks extensively about in his autobiography.
I am not sure what other details you would like but you could probably
find it there in the autobiography. I don't know off hand what he specifically
said about Shankara.  I do think that his influences came not from written
words so much as from saints who lived those words.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
	Roger Adams
	radams@cerritos.edu               To those in whom love dwells,
	Cerritos College                  the whole world is one family.
	11110 Alondra Blvd                             A Hindu Proverb
        Norwalk, California 90650
	USA        		          292 Dwapara :-)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: prasanth@ecn.purdue.edu (Ravi K. Prasanth)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Indra, Mithra and Varuna
Date: 18 Nov 1992 12:30:54 -0800
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In article <1ebq7uINNs8s@sandman.caltech.edu>, ahudli@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (anand hudli) writes:
  
>  He would visit her one day in the form (avatar) of Rama. She
>  did exactly that with complete "blind" faith in her guru's 
>  words and Rama did visit her ashram, in his search for Sita. 

> [deleted to save BW]

>  Supporting this verse, is the sutra (formula) of Vedanta Sutras:
 
>           Shastra-yonitvaat
 
>  The Supreme Lord (Vishnu) is the source of all scriptures.    
 
>  Anand
  

You are arguments are fallacious (appeal to authority, petitio
principii, etc). I do not wish to continue this discussion if
you cant/wont make logical statements to support your claim.

RKP
From: raj@globe1.att.com (Rajendra P Sharma)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: translate from sanscrit
Date: 19 Nov 1992 09:54:42 -0800
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Keywords: sanscrit hari om tat sat

Kevin writes:

> 	Could someone on this newsgroup translate this saying my hathayoga
> 	teacher used to end her classes with?

> 	Hari Om tat sat.


	One possible translation is "Hari Om That Is."
	

---raj
From: lyeh@alleg.edu (Hun Lye)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Harappa
Date: 16 Nov 1992 22:11:35 -0800
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Distribution: world
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> 	I think as long as we restricted the discussion to Harappa
> religion, then we won't go too far afield.  In particular, this
> "proto-Siva" seems very fascinating to me.  I've always had a hunch
> that the influence of the pre-Aryan Indus valley cultures on Hinduism,
> Buddhism, yoga, etc. has been seriously discounted, mostly through
> lack of tangible evidence.  And as my interest in Buddhist tantra
> continues to deepen, I'm finding that the influence of Saivism on
> the tantric Buddhism which was ultimately transmitted to Tibet is much
> greater than I had ever imagined.  To be able to trace this influence
> back to pre-Aryan cultures is somehow very satisfying.

	Whether Shaivism influenced tantric Buddhism or not is itself  
questionable.  IMO (and I am NOT meaning this as the "ultimate truth"),  
both Shaivism and Vajrayana probably developed along parallel lines but  
certainly not identical.  It is probably more accurate to say that both  
traditions drew their practices from one same source - that is tantra  
itself - not Buddhist or Shaivist.  And I am sure you (Bill) are aware,  
Vajrayana is different from Shaivism at least in one respect - the  
importance of sunyata in Vajrayana.  Without sunyata as the "purifying  
fire," Vajrayana practices lose their intergrity as Buddhist practices.   
Moreover, many people are apt to consider the concept of shakthi as one  
and the same in both Shaiva and Buddhist Tantra.  But this is far from the  
picture.  Vajrayana's feminine principle is concerned with "wisdom" and  
not "power" (shakthi).  Although from an outsider's point of view this  
difference is negligible, from a Vajrayanist's point of view it is of  
utmost importance that we know that the feminine principle is "wisdom" and  
not "power."  It is the union of "wisdom" (prajna) and "compassion" that  
one tries to attain in Vajrayana.  One of the most important guideline in  
Vajrayana is the correct understanding of View, Meditation and Action.  in  
this case, View refers to the understanding of the priciples behind  
Vajrayana - sunyata, prajna, karuna etc.  Meditation is the process  
whereby we try to introduce and familarize ourselves with the View.  And  
Action is "compassion in action" helping all other beings in the process.   
And I am sure Shaiva practitioners can see the subtle (but vital)  
differences between their practice and Buddhist Tantra.  I am not arguing  
the Vajrayana is more "true" than Shaivism or anything but only trying to  
show that there are differences between the two systems.  



Regards,

Hunyeow Lye
lyeh@alleg.edu


P.S.  Bill, I guess you are probably aware of these differences.  I wrote  
this posting so as not the give anyone the impression that the two systems  
are the same or that any system "adopted" from the other so that the  
system that supposedly did the adoption loses its intergrity.
From: bhattach@quip.eecs.umich.edu (sayan bhattacharyya)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Indra, Mithra and Varuna
Date: 18 Nov 1992 12:27:31 -0800
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In article <1ebq7uINNs8s@sandman.caltech.edu> ahudli@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (anand hudli) writes:
>In article <1dh964INN7m3@sandman.caltech.edu> prasanth@ecn.purdue.edu (Ravi K. Prasanth) writes:
 

>>Truth is more important than (blind) faith to a Hindu. Prove
>>your assertions. 

 
> Ever heard of the story of Shabari, in the Ramayan? Shabari was 
> told by her guru Rishi Matang to just keep praying God and
> He would visit her one day in the form (avatar) of Rama. She
> did exactly that with complete "blind" faith in her guru's 
> words and Rama did visit her ashram, in his search for Sita. 

> How about the story of Dhruva?
> Dhruva, a mere kid,  went to the forest with the purpose of 
> getting a vision of God. Devarshi Narada met the boy and instructed 
> him to chant the mantra, "Om Namo Bhagavate Vaasudevaaya". Dhruva
> did exactly that with "blind" faith and devotion and the Supreme
> Lord Vishnu appeared before him.
>

Anand,

You are forgetting that Hinduism is not a unitary or monolithic
religion in the sense some other major religions are. Blind faith
may be a tenet of some Hindu sects, but surely not of all. For
example I would be highly surprised if "blind faith" would be
acceptable in the Advaita philosophy of Shankara .

Hinduism accommodates within its folds a mass of diverse beliefs and
philosophies, even some very contradictory ones. Remember that
the unabashedly atheist and materialist philosophy of Charvaka
("Rinang kritva ghritang pibet ... " etc) is also a valid constituent 
of Hinduism just as sects professing blind faith are. 

-Sayan Bhattacharyya.
From: mayne@ds1.scri.fsu.edu (Bill Mayne)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: The Path of Serenity and Insight
Date: 17 Nov 1992 14:01:40 -0800
Organization: ----
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In article <45829@ogicse.ogi.edu> S.Hinde@frec.bull.fr writes:
>[repost, the original aparently went down some kind of NNTP black hole -a]

>I wonder if some kind person (particularly US or INDIA based readers) can
>give me some information on the availability of the  following publication:

>"The Path of Serenity and Insight An explanation of the Buddhist Jhanas"

>Henepola Gunaratana

>Originaly published by Motilal Banarsidass Publishers, Delhi.

>This is an exceptional publication. I would be interested in the names of
>any other related publications.

You can write to the author, known as Bhante G to his friends and students,
at Bhavana Society, Rt. 1 Box 218-3, High View, West Virginia 26808. The
Bhavana Society has a book service, whose address I unfortunately don't
have, which would most likely have "The Path of Serenity and Insight..."
if it is currently in print anywhere. The book is a popular condensation
of the author's doctoral dissertation. Reprints from microfilm can be
ordered from a service at the University of Michigan. These would be
a bit expensive (about $40), but worthwhile for serious students. Unlike
most dissertations I've seen it is quite readable, though still scholarly.

As for related publications, I highly recommend "Insight Meditation in
Plain English" by the same author. All the copies from the first
printing were given freely by the Bhavana Society. According to the
July-September 1992 newsletter it is being reprinted by Wisdom
Publications in Boston and will soon be available in book stores.

Bill Mayne
From: jrk@information-systems.east-anglia.ac.uk (Richard Kennaway)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: TV programme about Western Buddhist Order
Date: 18 Nov 1992 12:24:51 -0800
Organization: ----
Distribution: world
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Last Thursday, a programme was broadcast in the UK on BBC2 about the
Western Buddhist Order and its founder, Sangharakshita.  The trailer for it
that I saw said that his doctrines had aroused controversy and anger in the
Buddhist world.  Unfortunately, I missed the programme.  I would *really*
like to have seen it.  Did anyone out there happen to have recorded it and
could lend me a tape?  Failing that, can anyone tell me about it?

--                                ____
Richard Kennaway                  \  /__    School of Information Systems
Internet:  jrk@sys.uea.ac.uk       \/  /    University of East Anglia
uucp:  ...mcsun!ukc!uea-sys!jrk      \/     Norwich NR4 7TJ, U.K.
From: farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Lorenzo Farris)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Effort vs No Effort (Lazy Way)
Date: 21 Nov 1992 16:19:22 -0800
Organization: ----
Distribution: world
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Summary: what is lazy?


I think this thread is suffering from a great deal of confusion as to
what constitutes effort or lack thereof. How else could it possibly go
on for so long? :-)

Since we all seem to have an idea of what is meant by effort, I would
recommend someone making an effort ;) to define no-effort.

People that are engaged in some spiritual path (this is
soc.RELIGION.eastern, after all) do so for some reason.

Assuming a similar goal (sorry for such an offensive word ;) on both
sides of the discussion, let me submit what I think is implied by no
effort. 

One should live and do in a certain state of awareness, of
consciousness, in which one is fully conscious of the present moment,
in which each moment is sufficient in itself, in which one experiences
existence without mental modifications (whatever that means ;)). And
all spiritual 'practices' are a vain attempt to 'acquire' such a state
of awareness. To have goals is to miss the point. 

I am sure someone will be kind enough to critique this definition for
me. In fact, I would appreciate it if all the Lazes would either
define the essence of whatever it is they do(n't), or at least
describe why they take the 'effort' of posting about no-effort. 

My reply to no-effort is: that's all well and good, if you're already
in that state of mind. How do I reverse N years of conditioning to
get into that state of mind? Ooops, sorry, that implies effort.;)

For you Lazes out there, do you see our problem? We would very much
like to be experiencing the world as you describe, but somehow we are
not able to. How do we do(n't) it?

			Yours in earnest confusion,
				Lorenzo
-- 
"Once upon a time men were possessed    ******************************
by devils. Now they are not less        *  Lorenzo Farris            *
obsessed by ideas" -CG Jung             *  farris@ruhets.rutgers.edu *
					******************************
From: Roger Adams <RADAMS@cerritos.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Effort vs clinging on the spiritual path
Date: 19 Nov 1992 09:49:03 -0800
Organization: Cerritos College, Norwalk CA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu

In article <1ee983INN6i1@sandman.caltech.edu>, 
kish@ring8.rutgers.edu (Kish) writes:

> My question before about preferences for Hindu thinking was based on
> intellectual curiosity spurred by Scott's book more than anything
> else.  Can you place Paramahansa Yogananda's thinking in a historical
> context i.e. do you think he has been influenced by Shangkara ?  Scott
> seems to either have been either a student or an admirer of Sri
> Aurobindo.
> 

Paramahansa Yogananda spoke from his own direct realization of truth so the
question of the ordinary kind of influence one might expect a writer or
philosopher to have does not apply because it refers to schools of thought,
branches of philosophy, sects, denominations, etc. etc. which are not
the direct realization of truth that masters such as Yogananda, Shankara,
Pantanjali, Christ, Buddha, had.  The dualism you mention in relation to
vedanta philosophy is quite superficial. If you were to read some Vivikananda,
you will see how the dualism disappears from pure vedanta as interpreted by
a master.  I think Yogananda's teachings convey the best of what India has
to offer to the rest of the world on the spiritual goal of life and the means
to reach it, fully in accord to what Krishna, Christ, Patanjali, (and other
great ones) taught.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
	Roger Adams
	radams@cerritos.edu               To those in whom love dwells,
	Cerritos College                  the whole world is one family.
	11110 Alondra Blvd                             A Hindu Proverb
        Norwalk, California 90650
	USA        		          292 Dwapara :-)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: ahudli@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (anand hudli)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Origin of the Vedas (Re: Indra, Mithra and Varuna)
Date: 19 Nov 1992 14:56:01 -0800
Organization: Indiana University
Distribution: world
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In article <1ee8tmINN6a2@sandman.caltech.edu> bhattach@quip.eecs.umich.edu (sayan bhattacharyya) writes:
>In article <1ebq7uINNs8s@sandman.caltech.edu> ahudli@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (anand hudli) writes:
> <stuff deleted>

><Anand> Now, regarding the origin of the vedas, I quote the verse 


><Anand> Narayanaparaa Vedaa Devaa Narayanaangajaah
><Anand> Narayanaparaa Lokaa Narayanaparaa Makhaah   ||

><Anand>                               Shrimad Bhagavatam
><Anand>                               Skandha 2, Ch. 5, Verse 15

><Anand> Translation: {Brahma Said} The real cause or origin of the
><Anand> Vedas is Narayana (or Krishna). The real topic described by
><Anand> the Vedas is Narayana. The other Gods are different parts of 
><Anand> the same God Narayana. The various heavenly planets are meant
><Anand> for (realizing) Narayana. The real enjoyer of the offerings in
><Anand> sacrifices is Narayana. 


><Anand> Supporting this verse, is the sutra (formula) of Vedanta Sutras:
>                                                         -------  

><Anand>        Shastra-yonitvaat

><Anand> The Supreme Lord (Vishnu) is the source of all scriptures.    

>______________________


>This is ridiculous ! Anand, you are using the Vedas ( well Vedanta,
>that is the Upanishadas, are a part of the Vedas, aren't they ?) to
>prove that the Vedas are of divine origin. Do you realize the fallacy
>of recursion that this is leading you to ?
>
> <stuff deleted>
>-Sayan Bhattacharyya



 You are wrong in stating that I am trying to prove the Vedas are of 
 divine origin using the Vedas. If you want to get   technical, Vedas
 are Rig, Yajur, Sama and Atharva. The Upanishads are generally called
 Vedanta. The Vedanta Sutras or Brahma Sutras are a collection of extremely
 terse formulas which describe the knowledge contained in the Vedas and 
 Upanishads. The Vedanta Sutras are NOT part of the Vedas. See for example,
 "The Vedanta Sutras", Max Muller (Ed), Sacred Books of the East, XXXIV. 

  The Vedanta Sutras  play a central role in the three systems of 
  philsosophy, namely the Advaita of Shankara, the Vishishtadvaita of
  Ramanuja and the Dvaita of Madhva. Of course, if you do not acknowledge 
  the authenticity/authority of the Vedanta Sutras then there is little
  scope for further discussion on this topic.  
        
 Anand
From: mayal@microsoft.com
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Effort vs clinging on the spiritual path
Date: 19 Nov 1992 09:48:15 -0800
Organization: Microsoft Corporation
Distribution: world
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All this talk about "enlightenment" reminds me of something a
wonderful Polish Zen Master once said when asked "what
is enlightenment?" His answer was "Let me put it this way:
in my language (Polish), the word for 'enlightenment' is
almost identical to the word for 'submerged in garbage.'"

- Maya
From: mw%ki.fht-mannheim.de (Marc Wachowitz)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Effort vs clinging on the spiritual path
Date: 21 Nov 1992 16:18:32 -0800
Organization: Fachhochschule fuer Technik Mannheim
Distribution: world
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Roger Adams (RADAMS@cerritos.edu) wrote:
: In article <1ea2qgINNss1@sandman.caltech.edu>, 
: mw%ki.fht-mannheim.de (Marc Wachowitz) writes:
: > : The clinging we have to ego-control is astoundingly powerful
: > Agreed so far ...
: > : and requires effort to let go of.
: > .. but this conclusion supposes the ego would have to reach something.
: 
: The ego _is_ the problem.
That wasn't denied; see below.

: > What we are seeking is (obviously) not to need seeking any more.
: Yes, we want to be at a level of realization where we need to no longer
: seek. But it is faulty logic to equate "not seeking" with "finding".
That depends on what you mean with "seeking" - when you only refer to so-called
"spiritual seeking", you are right.
But when looking beyond the conceptual level, the striving for enlightenment
(or whatever one's specific goal is called) is not different in nature from
what's usually considered the desire and attachment to be dropped -
the desire of becoming/getting something is indeed the nature of the ego.

Meditating for some purpose is like changing from heroine-addiction to
some (usually) less dangerous stuff which is socially more respected.
The basic fact of addiction remains, whatever object is taken.

: A diamond covered with mud
: looks like a mudball, acts like a mudball, and for all intents and purposes,
: _is_ a mudball. One must do what is necessary to remove the mud from the
: diamond that is preventing the diamond from fully manifesting itself.

The ego-image working/looking for something labeled "spiritual goal" looks like
an ego in desire, acts like and ego in desire and with all intents and purposes
_is_ an ego in desire.
An image trying to adjust the image of the current situation to the imagination
of a future situation.
Amusing concept, isn't it?

: If, as the story you quoted implied, that all you need to do is to let go,
: and this letting go requires, as you say, absolutely no effort of any kind,
.. but [it seems] you _are_ applying effort, though you label it "spiritual".
"Effort" doesn't mean just a verbal commitment, just as desire does not depend
on the social judgement of its object.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Marc Wachowitz, mw@ki.fht-mannheim.de   /  news zombie - reply by e-mail, too
  *  wonder everyday    *    nothing in particular    *    all is special  *
From: news@appserv.eng.sun.com
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: translate from sanscrit
Date: 18 Nov 1992 12:37:07 -0800
Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc., Mountain View, CA, USA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu
Keywords: sanscrit hari om tat sat

	Could someone on this newsgroup translate this saying my hathayoga
	teacher used to end her classes with?

	Hari Om tat sat.

							Thanks

							Kevin Marshall
From: Kyrsten Swazey <kyrsten@eos.arc.nasa.gov>
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Harappa
Date: 18 Nov 1992 15:39:34 -0800
Organization: NASA Ames Research Center
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandman.caltech.edu

I have run across a couple references to the similarities between the
"Harappan" gods and the Celtics.  Is this too broad a generalization?
Where would be a likely place to find information regarding the origins
of the Indus area's religious practices, gods, etc..  And, if there IS a
correlation between Harappa and Celtic, are there any dependable sources
for those?
Are there any documents, similar to the dead sea scrolls, which may
unlock (or have unlocked) the religion of the time.  Or is there nothing
left other than the images themselves?
Any responses could be mailed to me at:  kyrsten@eos.arc.nasa.gov

Thanks,
Kyrsten