HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jtchew@csa3.lbl.gov (JOSEPH T CHEW)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Reserach in Fiction (the SF tangent)
Date: 21 Jul 92 18:48:51 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory - Berkeley, CA, USA
Reply-To: jtchew@csa3.lbl.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.254.198
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4   

>(for example, the previously mentioned example of going
>from .9c to 0 in a few minutes (or was it hours) requires _only_ a very basic
>understanding of physics, which you would get in the first weeks of a high
>school course - if a ship is going to do that, then you need to provide an
>explanation _why_ it's possible)  

Yep.  Self-consistency, combined with an implicit or explicit reason 
for the reader to indulge you in that (in)famous "willing suspension 
of disbelief."  In science fiction, you can create a phony world in
which spaceships do aerobatics.  But it's good form, if not strictly
necessary, to either explain or imply that either advanced discoveries
or different rules have freed them from Newtonian constraints.  You can
have your heroine ride around on a flying dragon, but its ability to
fly has to come and go according to the internally plausible laws you've 
created for dragondom, not merely the convenience of the plot.  Of course, 
doing these things without resorting to idiot lecture can be a good trick.

Another way out -- if you're good enough -- is to use your apparent
science-fiction setting mostly as symbolism.  I quit trying to figure 
out the phony science in Star Wars when I realized (yeah, I'm a bit 
slow) that it was epic mythology -cum- philosophical candy-sampler 
with a technological facade.  Most episodes of Star Trek (old and new)
use science the same way; they are courtroom dramas or diplomatic
thrillers or explorations of the personalities and ensemble dynamics 
of the bridge crew, not future extrapolations of Nova.  But even this
approach doesn't get them out of the self-consistency requirement
(though Geordi and Data sometimes have a certain excessive ingenuity 
at field-reconfiguring their supply of unobtanium...)  A light-saber 
doesn't shoot like a gun just because your opponent is across the room.

Sorry.  Universes tend to have rules.  Steer clear of deus ex machina
unless you've given the reader due cause to think the gods are afoot.

Joe
"The pallid pimp of the dead-line/The enervate of the pen" --Robert Service
From: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Research in Fiction
Date: 28 Jul 92 23:18:37 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world

Glad to see this thread still continues...In my experience, research (of
course) provides the factual material that contributes to the verisimilitude of
the story; the Kiwi who had trouble with Toronto distances would really bother
only the Torontonians who would have direct knowledge of the distance involved
in the story. Still, one wants to be accurate if only out of sheer pride in
craft.

But research can also point to useful directions for the story. For example, in
reseaching gladiatorial combat in ancient Rome, I learned that those who came
in second were stashed under the Collosseum in a small room where people would
come to fill small vials with blood (this being considered a useful medicine,
though a transfusion from the winner might seem more logical). So in my novel
Rogue Emperor, my hero blunders into this room and encounters a female
gladiatrix (excuse the bilingual redundancy) who will come in very useful later
in the story. (She's mourning her boyfriend's death and my hero's small
consolatory touch makes a friend of her.)

The problem is keeping the reseach from swamping the story. The writer has to
resist the urge to cough up potted essays on The Roman Tenement, Roman
Transportation Systems, The Sex Life of Augustus, or whatever; no matter how
interesting you may find it, your research is pointless if it doesn't move the
story ahead.
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: M16585@mwvm.mitre.org
Subject: Re: What font do you write/type in?
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, McLean VA 22102
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 15:03:23 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.184548.19412@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
lputnam@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Lee P Putnam) writes:
 
>
>
>Since there was all that talk as to what font people shoould use in a MS, I
>was wondering what font people type in for best writing. I've gotten into
>the habit of typing in 9pt helvetica when using macs. What do you use and
>if you change it is it harder to write?
>
>-lee (p).
>
>
 
I use 12pt courier because that's what the editors say they want the manu-
scripts in. Double spaced, of course.  I use a mac too, and I must have
umpteen different fonts.
Ellie
From: crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu (Lauren L. Crawford)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Jobs that mess up your writing
Date: 22 Jul 92 14:36:54 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

The job that stunted my writing more than any other was chief copy
editor of a magazine.  Every time I sat down to actually write
something, I froze up.  Each sentence had to be grammatically
correct, punctuation perfect, spelling flawless.  That's no way
to write, not at the first-draft stage.  I just couldn't turn the
copy editor off at night when I wanted to write.  I couldn't even
turn it off when I sat down to read a book, article, whatever.  
It's a great job for losing friends, too:  "Shouldn't that be
_more than_ six items, not _over_ six items?"

--Lauren
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Reserach in Fiction (the Star Wars tangent)
From: mschmitt@eagle.wesleyan.edu
Date: 21 Jul 92 13:01:25 EDT
 <1992Jul20.175859.571@HQ.Ileaf.COM> <1992Jul21.141728.29806@bwdls61.bnr.ca>
Organization: Wesleyan University

In article <1992Jul21.141728.29806@bwdls61.bnr.ca>, pww@bnr.ca (Peter Whittaker) writes:
> In article <1992Jul20.175859.571@HQ.Ileaf.COM> hal@HQ.Ileaf.COM (Hal Wadleigh) writes:
>>One example of a "howler" is the use of parsecs as a unit of time in Star Wars.
> 
> That's fine:  all units of distance are acceptable as units of time as
> well.  It is perfectly legitimate for me to say "See you in 90
> gigametres"; you might have difficulty figuring out that I mean "See
> you in 5 minutes", but that is something we'd have to work out.
> 
	Only if you have a commone reference frame of speed.  You have to know
that the speaker is referring to the speed of light as the time basis.  If I
assume you mean .5c, for example, the whole thing falls apart.
	Also, relativity could reak havoc with your system.  :)

> How do 90 Gm and 5 min equate?
> 
> speed of light (c) = 3x10e08 m/s
> 
> 5 min * 60s/min = 300 s
> 
> 300 s x c = 90 x 10e09 m = 90 Gm.
> 
> The real howler in Star Wars was that they probably used "parsec" to
> mean a fairly short time;  a parsec is just over 3 years long.
	
	It's just over 3 years long _IF_ you're referring to the speed of
light.  However, if you recall, the Millenium Falcon travels in hyperspace,
i.e. _faster than light_ (FTL).  So, it could be much less.
	BTW, the official explanation (from George Lucas, if memory serves) was
that this was an _intentional_ goof.  In other words, it was meant to
demonstrate that Han really didn't know what the heck he was talking about.  If
I recall, Obi-Wan had kind of an exasperated expression at the time, backing up
this theory.
	But this is getting beyond this group, so....

				Matt Schmitt
				mschmitt@eagle.wesleyan.edu
			"Aspiring SF writer, dreamer, and idealist"
Newsgroups: misc.writing,comp.text,comp.text.desktop,comp.text.sgml,comp.text.tex,comp.text.frame,comp.text.interleaf,comp.edu,comp.edu.composition
From: ad815@yfn.ysu.edu (John S. Kennedy)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Graduate Level Creative Writing Courses
Date: 21 Jul 92 22:38:18 GMT
Reply-To: axinar@tso.uc.edu (John S. Kennedy)
Organization: Tri-State Online, Cincinnati, OH


I have a friend who is returning to college next year to get a 
Masters degree in English.  She had hoped to take her elective
courses in creative writing, but she doesn't have the undergraduate
background, and the various Powers That Be were sufficiently 
unimpressed with her writing samples that they decided not to let
her take those classes.
 
Well, if at first you don't succeed, try, try again -- or, in other
words ... it's hard to keep a good Axinar down <<Grin>>.
 
Have any of you taken any graduate level creative writing classes?
What were they like?  What did you learn?  Are there other places
where the information that can be obtained from such classes can
be found?
 
               Thanks!
                  John
-- 
** John S. Kennedy (513) 541-3078 axinar@tso.uc.edu 72217.416@compuserve.com
The opinions expressed in this message are those of the person speaking,
and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of St. E's Med Center, or the
NPTN, but Mr. Kennedy's opinions SHOULD be made federal law!
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: gburton@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Garland O Burton)
Subject: Re: script-writing software question
Organization: The Ohio State University
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 16:16:41 GMT


there is a shareware program called screenwrite. (or something close to that)
it is for ibm compats.

gb

-- 
gburton@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu...buckeye.hoopsters=1992.big.ten.champs!
From: sharon@netlabs.com (Sharon Hopkins)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Jobs that mess up your writing
Date: 24 Jul 92 18:04:26 GMT
Organization: NetLabs, Inc.

In article <1992Jul20.140306.1@pembvax1.pembroke.edu> duck@pembvax1.pembroke.edu writes:
>In article <l6lqoeINNq0j@jethro.Corp.Sun.COM>, tmhoff@oogoody.Corp.Sun.COM (Todd Hoff) writes:
>> In article 1@pembvax1.pembroke.edu, duck@pembvax1.pembroke.edu () writes:
>>> [re: programming _actually_ helping my writing]
>>> [re: also short term effects (deterimental) of newspaper]
>> 
>> Yes, I can see how it helps in your case. But haiku is a little tough
>> when all your thoughts are if/then. I also think it's very hard to be
>> empathetic when your mind is in a logical rut. 
>
> *Nods* I can understand cases where it wouldn't help although I don't
> understand why people say programming is not creativity but entirely
> logical -- I see it 99% creativity and 1% logic.... 
>
> Anyway, yeah I never try to write poems (haiku or otherwise) after working
> at the newspaper / or programming....

But think what you're missing out on!  I can't vouch for the haiku
(that's Larry Wall's specialty), but I find programming and poetry can
work very nicely together...


#!/usr/bin/perl

APPEAL:

listen (please, please);

    open yourself, wide,
	join (you, me),
    connect (us,together),

tell me.

do something if distressed;
    
	@dawn, dance;
	@evening, sing;
	read (books,poems,stories) until peaceful;
	study if able;
    
	write me if-you-please;

sort your feelings, reset goals, seek (friends, family, anyone);

	    do not die (like this)
	    if sin abounds;


keys (hidden), open locks, doors, tell secrets;
    do not, I-beg-you, close them, yet.

				accept (yourself, changes),
				bind (grief, despair);

    require truth, goodness if-you-will, each moment;


select (always), length(of-days)


# Sharon Hopkins, sharon@netlabs.com
# Feb. 21, 1991  (mod. 7/24/92)
# listen (a perl poem)
From: miuvdd@lure.latrobe.edu.au
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Life as Art
Date: 28 Jul 92 03:16:21 GMT
Organization: VAX Cluster, Computer Centre, La Trobe University

In article <1992Jul27.185559.1@eagle.wesleyan.edu>, rstepno@eagle.wesleyan.edu writes:
> Idle curiosity here...
> How do you respond when your date admits that he/she is a novelist
> (unpublished) and offers to loan you her/his last manuscript
> about the previous significant other... or the novel before that,
> about the person before that...?
> That is, what do you think about churning your friends' lives into
> fiction?
> Is the appropriate etiquette to reply in kind and let him/her find
> a notebook/recorder/Powerbook under your pillow? 
> Would Miss Manners approve of saying, "Sorry, I'm saving MY life 
> for MY novel, please don't write about me when I'm gone," or ?
> Bob

IMHO I don't think that you *should* be basing your characters purely on
the people in your life (ie date, spouse, family, friends...)  That's
one sure fire way to (a) alienate them; (b)lose control over that
particular character (ie no way would I have done that!); and (c) people
remember things differently - even if you were both there at the time,
your friend will remember it differently. 

Sure you might really admire a certain quality; but does that mean that
you have to base the entire character on a person with that quality?

Excuse the soapbox, but this is a subject that I feel strongly about.
By all means soak up all that life offers (good and bad).  Just be a
little more selective in what you give back.

Thus endth my humble opinion.

Morgana
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: mjanzen@healthy.uwaterloo.ca (Michael Edward Janzen)
Subject: Re: Misc.writing Recommended Booklist
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 16:52:51 GMT

I've done a bit of reading lately, and there is disagreement
regarding multiple submissions.  It seems logical to me to 
send copies to at least a few publishers to start, since I
hear it may be necessary to send a manuscript to a couple
dozen (or more) places before anyone shows interest, yet I
hear that publishers are less likely to read a multiple
submission!  So what do I do?



From: fish@hpscit.sc.hp.com (John Fisher)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 16:54:32 GMT
Subject: Re: Bad Places to have Good Ideas
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Santa Clara, CA
Newsgroups: misc.writing

daveg@ee.ubc.ca (Dave Gagne) writes:

>I was in the middle of a nice, relaxing shower this morning when
>suddenly - boom! An Idea! In fact, A Good Idea (at least *I* think it
>was good). The Idea struck without warning, and I was quite happy with
>it. Anytime I get good ideas, I'm quite happy. 
>
>     [description of multiple ideas deleted]
>
>I couldn't get out yet, I was still all soapy, and there were a few
>parts which I hadn't done yet. I rushed through the shower as fast as
>I could, then jumped out and dried myself quickly. I was able to get
>to a pen and my notebook in time to write down all the ideas I had had
>while in the shower, but it was a close thing. 
>
>     [detailed question about ideas in inconvient places deleted]
>
>Whaddaya think, am I nuts?
>
>Dave

Your description brought instantly to mind a virtually cliched scene in
a movie.  A character is in the shower merrily soaping up when an idea
strikes.  The character bolts from the shower, oblivious to the dripping
water and soap suds, and stands at a desk or table joyously writing down
the thought.  

What *I* get from the scene is a sense of the character's values.
Preserving the idea is more important than getting the carpet wet.
Perhaps the character even slowly sinks into a chair, writing furiously,
becoming immersed in a state of satori, only to become aware later of
the mess they've made.

But, to more directly answer your question, I keep writing materials
near at hand in all places in which I spend any length of time (even the
bathroom).  I also use a small tape recorder (it's perfect for those
inspirations that strike while driving:-}).  Always carry a notebook or
pad.


John Fisher at Hewlett-Packard |
in Santa Clara, CA             |  Insanity is just a state of mind.
fish@hpscit.hp.com             | 
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: ai118@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Rich Zidonis)
Subject: Re: technical writing jobs???
Reply-To: ai118@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Rich Zidonis)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 20:21:53 GMT


In a previous article, en01@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (EUGINA M. NOVAK) says:

>  My questions are:
>    what types of technical writing are available?
>    What are the prospects of obtaining a writing position?
>    What salary range do technical writers usually receive?
>    What experience or requirements tend to be accepted?
>    If you currently work as a technical writer, what does a typical day
>    entail for you and are you happy with your position?

EMN requested email replies, but I am also interested in the answers.
I would appreciate having the answers emailed to me, too, or, if
the interest is there, perhaps the answers can be posted.
-- 
rich

Internet: ai118@cleveland.freenet.edu
From: eoghanni@castle.ed.ac.uk (Eoghann Irving)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Research in Fiction
Date: 21 Jul 92 12:46:09 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University


NOTE CORRECTED TITLE (See, I am paying attention to the posts)


In article <1992Jul20.175859.571@HQ.Ileaf.COM> hal@HQ.Ileaf.COM (Hal Wadleigh) writes:
>A recent episode of STNG had the ship assuming synchronous orbit over a pole.
>The writer missed a great opportunity for drama when the ship cratered into
>the planet, since unmoving synchronous orbits can only be over the equator.

	Yeah, so he missed what might have been a good idea. Was it a
good episode anyway, in which case it doesn't matter how many ideas he
missed, or was it terrible, in which case it matters a lot?

>If you don't want to get the facts right, please don't try to write science
>fiction.  There's enough half-baked crap on the shelves already.

	WHAT!!!! I think I've posted about this a couple of times
already, but...
	You do not need to be a cosmologist an astro physicist or any
other type of scientist to write science fiction. All you need to do is
have a good story to tell.
	How can you possibly get all the facts right in science fiction,
nobody knows what most of 'the facts' are.

-- 
|------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|	        NEW SUPER SIXYWICKS, ITS SO GOOD WE ATE THE BABY               |
|  all text or parts thereof withinin this box are TM of Eoghann Irving 1992   |
|------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
From: rstepno@eagle.wesleyan.edu
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Life as Art, vice as versa
Date: 27 Jul 92 22:55:59 GMT
Organization: Wesleyan University

Idle curiosity here...
How do you respond when your date admits that he/she is a novelist
(unpublished) and offers to loan you her/his last manuscript
about the previous significant other... or the novel before that,
about the person before that...?
That is, what do you think about churning your friends' lives into
fiction?
Is the appropriate etiquette to reply in kind and let him/her find
a notebook/recorder/Powerbook under your pillow? 
Would Miss Manners approve of saying, "Sorry, I'm saving MY life 
for MY novel, please don't write about me when I'm gone," or ?
Bob
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: ds@tejas.watson.ibm.com (Dinkar Sitaram)
Subject: Re: Character Names
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 12:43:45 GMT
Reply-To: ds@tejas.watson.ibm.com (Dinkar Sitaram)
Organization: IBM TJ Watson Research

In article <Bs7x3q.KL5@unx.sas.com>, sasafw@dobo.unx.sas.com (Fred
Welden) writes:
|> 
|> In article <l7ga0tINN4vp@cronkite>, willo@youcon.Central.Sun.COM
(Doug Willoughby  Area SE  - Midwest Area ) writes:
|> |I'm in the process of writing a story about a character who is of
|> |Belgian decent. I'm having a little trouble deciding on a surname
|> |that sounds ethic enough for this fellow. Any suggestions?
|> |
|> | [deleted lines]
|> Like naming the Spanish governor of the colony of Louisiana 
|> Alejandro "Bloody" O'Reilly, for example?  Face it, as far as
|> countries west of somewhere around Beirut and east of Hawaii go,
|> practically anybody can have practically any surname, and could have
|> for a couple of centuries now. 
|> [deleted lines]

True, but frequently the surnames are indicative of the person's ethnic
descent, so you have to be careful when using such names.  For example,
a person with a western surname in India is either an Anglo-Indian or 
Goanese Christian.  Hindus and Muslims don't use western surnames.
Anglo-Indians tend to have British surnames, Goanese Christians tend 
to have Portugese surnames.  Then there are also Christians from Kerala 
some of whome have surnames such as Abraham, Joseph etc. and others who 
don't.  All these groups have different customs, etc.  So if your 
character has an Anglo-Indian name, they should be recognizably 
Anglo-Indian in behaviour as well.

Of course, none of the above may matter if you are writing fiction for
the western market.

Regards,
Dinkar


Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: bf455@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bonita Kale)
Subject: Re: Help with Quoted Material
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 10:40:30 GMT




In a previous article, mschmitt@eagle.wesleyan.edu () says:

>In article <cass8806.96@elan.glassboro.edu>, cass8806@elan.glassboro.edu (KYLE CASSIDY) writes:
>> 
>> you don't have to credit anybody as long as the phrase is not copywrited. 
>> you can say. you can also quote things that are in the public domain without 
>> worrying -- you can say "four score and seven years ago" all you want 
>> without ever bothering to mention presiden lincoln. things that people say 
>> are not usually copyrighted (or indeed copywriteable) -- if this were true, 
>> it would be nearly impossible to write a book at all. you cannot quote 
>> copywrited material (such as a poem) without attributing it.
>> 

Someone ought to mention that it costs, and that the author pays.  I've
heard that popular songs, in particular, are quite ridiculously expensive.





> Okay, suppose I want to quote something on a poster in a story.  Would
>the phrase found on that poster be considered copyrighted, or not?  Let me
>guess, it depends on whether it's a common phrase, right?  

Don't know.  But you can't copyright a bumper sticker, for what that's
worth. 

Bonita Kale
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Life as Art, vice as versa
From: mschmitt@eagle.wesleyan.edu
Date: 29 Jul 92 11:00:40 EDT
Organization: Wesleyan University

In article <84599@netnews.upenn.edu>, crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu (Lauren L. Crawford) writes:
> In article <1992Jul27.185559.1@eagle.wesleyan.edu> rstepno@eagle.wesleyan.edu writes:
>>How do you respond when your date admits that he/she is a novelist
>>(unpublished) and offers to loan you her/his last manuscript
>>about the previous significant other... or the novel before that,
>>about the person before that...?
> 
> 
> You get another date.
> 
	Or, if you really want to keep on with that date, make up a contract
protecting you from use.  :)

	Seriously, it sounds as if this person has really made a bad move, but
it does kind of depend on a few things.  Does this SO know that they've written
about them?  Is the SO just the core of the character, or is the story
literally about them and the relationship?  And if this is the case, it's
really not fiction any more, is it? (and shouldn't be passed off as such)
	There are a lot of questions here.  If you were the writer (which
you're not) I would recommend staying away from this.  Morgana's right - it's a
quick and easy way to alienate someone, as well as (which someone else
mentioned) being a very easy way to get sued.  It's one thing to use a person
you know as the _core_ of a character, or to loosely base a story on a real
life situation, and quite another to write directly about what happened.  In
either case, though, it's only polite (and in the later, quite necessary, IMHO)
to tell the people involved, and give them a chance to object.
	But none of this answers your original question, what to do.  The
safest bet is to politely decline.  Next safest is to ask why or for what
purpose they want you to read it.  It's quite often a touchy situation to ask
any friend to read a manuscript, especially in this situation!

				Matt Schmitt
				mschmitt@eagle.wesleyan.edu
			  "Aspiring SF writer, dreamer, idealist"
				(and part time cynic)
Newsgroups: misc.writing