From: jjd1@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (james.j.dutton)
Subject: Re: Aggression in boys (Was: Re: BARBIE DOES IT AGAIN!!!!)
Organization: AT&T
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 14:59:03 GMT

In article <LOWRY.92Oct7170735@rotor.watson.ibm.com> lowry@watson.ibm.com (Andy Lowry) writes:
>In article <1992Oct7.162053.3664@cbfsb.cb.att.com> jjd1@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (james.j.dutton) writes:
> >  
> > My comment was meant for the future. Not in regards to history.
> >  
> > Let me tie it in for you. Do you think Diane will be there in
> > school when someone decides to pick on young Dylan. Do you think
> > the bully at school picks on bigger people generally. Now think
> > about that.
> >  
> > So you see I was not referring to the slugs attitude, but about
> > life.  Now think about that. Is a tie in developing for you? No?
> > Well thats OK because I wasn't responding to some obscure
> > playground adventure you where once involved in.
>
>Your comments certainly sounded like they were a criticism of Diane's
>handling of the situation she described.  The material you quoted from
 
Your interpretation of my comment did indeed sound like a criticism.
 
>Diane in your initial response to her was primarily her recounting of
>a specific playground incident.  Perhaps you can be a little clearer
 
The material I "quoted" was her post. Strange that I would leave
the meat of her post. 
Perhaps you can do a little less inferring in your quest for an argument.
 
 
>in your future posts.  
>
>If you were commenting about the future, then what in the world were
>you basing your comments on?  Diane gave no hint as to how she would
>want her son to react were he to encounter a bully with no adult of
>authority present.
 
 I based my post on my opinion. You are a strange case.
 
>
>I have no idea what "obscure playground adventure" you're referring
>to.
 
 Just as I have no idea how from suggesting some thought be given
to someday a child does have to fight it's own fight you translated
to - I feel women shouldn't be allowed to defend themselves. A very strange
case indeed. 

>
> > > > At some point a man has to do what a man has to do.
> > >
> > >Wow, what a macho phrase!  I take it you don't believe it's
> > >important for women to be able to defend themselves against
> > >attack.  Else why the gender-specific remark?
 
Crack open your dictionary and look up "expression".
 
> >  
> > I don't see a lot of bullys man handling girls out on the
> > playground.  Your experience is probably different. As long as you
> > have decided to imply I'm a chauvenist allow me to inquire, do you
> > always strike up the cause of feminism at the drop of a hat.
> > Perhaps you are one of those militant feminist sensitive 90's type
> > guys.  I hope I haven't offended you and I'll bet Diane is relieved
> > her search for her knight in shining armor is over.
>
>It was a chauvinist turn of phrase, especially given the context (we
 
100% bullcrock.     
 
>were discussing problems of sexual stereotypes, for crying out loud!)
 
The first post that made it to soc.singles was referring to two boys
fighting and the mother not wanting her son to do it. 
 I did not see it as a post primarily about the
sexual stereotypes between boys and girls. Perhaps an offhand comment
about boys being raised to fight. Certainly not the cruxt of the post.

>If it's not indicative of your views, choose your phrases more
>carefully.
 
Choose your left field interpretations more carefully so people aren't
forced to defend themselves against Andy Lowry's interpretations.
 
>
>Sure, girls don't get beat up that much in playgrounds.  But in real
>life women get beat up plenty.  As for feminism, it was and still is
 
Well since the discussion was about playgrounds maybe you could beat your
drum and wave your banner in someone else's face. I don't believe
my 5 sisters feel I am a chauvenist. Guess who's opinion I value more Andy.
But then you'd probably know more about it then them.
 
 
>an important movement.  Women on the whole are far from having the
>opportunities that they deserve in this society, and they are
>subjected to a great deal of emotional and physical abuse, on a scale
>that dwarfs anything I have yet to see carried out toward the general
>male population.
 
Which has absolutely nothing to do with 2 boys fighting on the playground
but thank you for sharing that with me. 
 
>
>I have no idea what "militant feminist sensitive 90's type guys" is
>supposed to mean.  If I did, then I'd probably be offended, so you
>might as well consider your hopes to the contrary spoiled.  For the
 
 Actually I could care less if you are offended. In fact I believe I would
approve.
 
>record: I'm not militant, I've told you what I think of feminism, I
 
Somehow I knew you would and yes you are militant. Thats what I would call
someone who in his desire to spew his diatribe jumps in a conversation
having nothing to do with feminism so they can rattle on about it.
 
>try to be sensitive to the needs of others, last I checked it's the
>90's.  And yes, I'm a guy.
>
 
Your like god Andy. I'll bet it's hard to comb your hair by the glow of
that halo.
 
>I'm no "knight in shining armor," and I wouldn't presume to think that
>Diane Lin is in need of one.  Mostly I just try not to be a complete
>a**hole.
 
Try again.
 
> There are a whole ton of other people on this net and
>elsewhere in the world who do likewise.  It's not always that easy,
 
Fascinating, a whole ton of people try not to be complete assholes.
Such as your pompous opinion of yourself.
 

>given that men have traditionally been pretty much a**holes in their
>treatment of women.
 
 No stereotyping there Andy. You are a real piece of work.
 Do you receive any type of counseling. If not I suggest you do.
 
>
> > > > Eventually your son will being fighting for his slice of the
> > > > pie in life and you are not going to be there.
> > >
> > >It sounds like Diane will have prepared him well to fight for what
> > >is rightfully his, but not to exploit weaknesses in others to get
> > >what is
> >  
> > Nice leap of logic pal. Yes she did a wonderfull job. Mommy he
> > didn't give me my ball. Then Dylan saw his mother getting pissed
> > off and said "I shall not exploit weaknesses in others." Do you
> > watch a lot of cartoons?
> >
> > I personally would have said "Either you can have your child behave
> > civilly or I'll do it". I certainly would not sit there and let my
> > kid get bullied.  My son is under strick orders to tell his teacher
> > if he is hit. If the problem is not resolved and he is hit a second
> > time he is to hit back.  Out of curiosity Andy do you have any
> > children or are you some snot nosed recent "mature" graduate?
>
>I'm not snot-nosed, I'm not a recent graduate, and I have a child.
>And I don't expect I'll ever want to be your "pal."  Anything else
>you'd like to know?
 
Teach me Andy mold me to be as great as you. No you would not want to be
my pal and likewise I assure you. 
 

>
>From her description, Diane did not "sit there and let [her] son get
>bullied."  And it sounds like she and her son followed your
>recommended procedure: if you get bullied, go to an adult in authority
>to try to get things resolved.  Diane was that adult.  She then
>encountered another adult who was perfectly comfortable with his son's
>bullying behavior.  She got pissed off, and so would I.  She kept her
>cool, and though she may not have "won" (i.e. it doesn't sound like
>the bully's father gave any ground), she protected her son and she
>stood up to the man.  In my book it sounds like her son received a
>fine lesson.
>
 
To bad I never criticized her behaviour but implied she was not always
going to be there. But since we continue to argue I guess you think
she always will be or something. Other then your putting words in my mouth
and then arguing about them I really don't understand what your problem is?
 
>Incidentally, if my daughter ever meets your son and acts in a way you
>don't think is civil, and if you don't agree with my handling of the
>situation, you should think twice before "[doing] it [yourself]," by
>which I presume you mean you would take my child's disciplining into
>your own hands.
 
 If you are incapable of disciplining your child in reqards to my child
your damn right I will. I don't need to think about it. It's fact.
 
>
> > >rightfully theirs.  The bully's father appears to be preparing his
> > >son to do the latter.
> >  
> > Yes the bully's father appears to be raising a serial killer or at
> > the very least someone who post's out of left field.
>
>High-flying hyperbole, unfounded personal attacks on me and on Diane
>Lin, attacks on feminism, macho posturing...  I expect if we met in a
>playground you'd try to knock me over.  I hope not too much of this
>rubs off on your son.
 
 Actually the first thing I taught my son and daughter is not to interrupt
and mind their own business. Fundamental manners. You might want to
review these with your parents. If I met you on a playground on my
time I assure you I wouldn't waste my time with you. Your totally fabricated
attacks on feminism and finger pointing indicate a severe inferiorty neurosis.
I suggest counseling. If nothing else for the sake of your poor children
which by the way have my condolences.
 
>--
>Andy Lowry, lowry@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7925
>IBM Research, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598

 
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