HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: donna@envy.kwantlen.bc.ca (Donna Hrynkiw)
Subject: Garb Research
Organization: The Internet
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 23:45:00 GMT

Alison MacDermot <habura@vccnorthb.its.rpi.edu> describes a picture of
some garb she wants to make for Twelfth Night:
> an illumination of Christine de Pisan writing at her desk, wearing a low-cut,
> form-fitted cotehardie. The decolettage appeared to be covered with white 
> lace or netting (what was mostly visible, against the pale skin, was evenly
> spaced little white dots, which seemed to be connected by a network of fine
> lines), which was fastened at the throat with a fairly opaque white (lace?)
> band. Has anyone ever heard of such a thing before? is it lace, or is it 
> something else? The illumination is 15th century, so whatever is portrayed
> is theoretically period. If it's kosher, I'm *dying* to make this for Twelfth
> Night. Any help would be appreciated.

Fiacha replies:
> If it looks like lace, then is probably is lace, but the question is 'What
> kind of lace?'
Indeed.

> The obvious candidate is a net lace. Net lace is created by making a fine
> fish net and then using needle lace techniques to decorate it.
Essentially correct, but "fish net"? Fiacha, for shame! The technique
is called "Lacis" and while exactly the same technique is used to hand-make
fish-net is also used to make the ground for lacis, I doubt if the two
could ever be confused (differences in materials, size of the mesh/holes,
etc.). I have NO appropriate reference materials for lacis here at work,
but I'm pretty sure that lacis was current in the period you mentioned.
Alison, if you want to know for sure, send me e-mail and I'll look up
a few portraits and dates for you.

I've discovered that netting (making the ground for lacis) is the only 
handwork that I can do in a moving car and get a satisfactory result.
(Although I have yet to try needlepoint.) So tell me, what do YOU do in the
car on a long journey to a far-away event?

E.B.
==================

Elizabeth "E.B." Braidwood                Donna Hrynkiw
Lions Gate, An Tir                        Kwantlen College
donna@envy.kwantlen.bc.ca                 Surrey, B.C.

Per bend sinister Or and vert, two bendlets enhanced above two holly leaves
all counterchanged.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Baronial election in the East Kingdom
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 92 15:01:40 GMT
Organization: IBM T. J. Watson Research

Greetings from Arval!  Lindorm asked for an interpretation of Eastern law
regarding the replacement of landed baron/esses.  I was there when we wrote
these laws, so I think I can offer an accurate analysis.  However, for a
definitive answer, you should consult the Crown and/or Kingdom Seneschal.
Keep in mind that the Crown has the power to waive the requirements of law
and allow the Barony to follow some other procedure.  If the barony wants
to propose another procedure, it certainly may do so.

These laws were written to cover cases where no orderly transfer of the
coronet was possible.  The kingdom would _always_ prefer that the new
coronet be chosen by the barony as quickly as possible and in whatever way
satisfies the barony.  That isn't clear in law, but it is obvious from
practice in several other baronies.  For example, Bhakail holds a baronial
election every two years.  The barony may choose to keep their current
baron/ess, or more choose new rulers.  The Crown reserves the right to veto
the choice, but has not done so within my memory.  A few other baronies
have similar procedures.  Thus, by custom, as long as you have either a
baron or baroness, the barony may use any procedure it likes to choose a
successor.

Looking at the exact wording of law: Since your Baron has stepped down but
the Baroness has not, the Barony can follow the simpler procedures for
adding a Baron before the Baroness retires, and then follow them again if
you wish to add a Baroness, too.  This procedure only requires that the
barony present a petition signed by 2/3 of the baronial officers and a
majority of the members of the barony; law does not specify how that
petition is to be generated, so you could handle the process any way you
want.  In particular, I see no reason why you could not choose a new baron
and new baroness in a single step, and then present two petitions.  

In effect, the last duty of the retiring baroness is to help the barony
choose her successor(s).

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
From: WILLIS%EIVAX@ualr.EDU (Braendur)
Subject: Shire Awards (Was Senescal courts)
Organization: The Internet
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 17:05:00 GMT

Good Greetings unto the Gentles of the Rialto.

I do not think there is any reason a shire could not give out awards to its
members or those they think are worthy.  My shire has three awards, for 
fighting, A+S, and service to the shire, which are given twice a year at the
events we host.  These are always given at feast, not court.  We, also, an
award to be given to those gentles, from outside the shire mostly, who serve
or aid the shire.  This last one has been given several times to those poor
newbies who at their first event help out far beyond expectations (read
kitchen slaves).  I think these have helped our shire to grow and also to
encourage the development of various skills in our shire.  

To the rest of the Kingdom, I do not think these awards hold any meaning, but
with them we can recognize those of our own who we feel need it.  The giving
of the awards also helps entertain the hungry feasters when the feast is going
a bit slower than anticpated.

Brandr Wyborn, Shire of Small Grey Bear, Kingdom of Meridies


From: Dave.Aronson@p11.f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: ... "Autocr Dancing from Pictures; Waivers
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1992 15:31:52 -0500

aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher) taunts:

 AN> Sometimes you'll be at a tournament out West, just enjoying the view (and
 AN> wondering why the women are dressed like mushrooms), and someone comes up
 AN> and says, "why you must be from far away", and then they launch into
 AN> the explanation.

So tell us, Aryk, why ARE the women dressed like mushrooms???

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: UCCXDEM <UCCXDEM@MVS.UCC.OKSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mega-Dukes
Organization: Oklahoma State University Computer Center
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 14:54:00 GMT

> EH> Inman five times.  I don't know how many times Dutchess Sir Rowan
> EH> and Duke Sir Hector have
> EH> reigned, but I believe Hector was already a Duke and Rowan was already a
> EH> dutchess when she won crown.
>
> Lord Elwyn, you are correct.
> Duke Hector and Duchess Rowan have reigned together 3 times, the first two  with him as the Ruler by Right of Arms, the third with her in that title.
>
> Duke Patrick Michael Gordon and Duchess Julia Montoya have also held the  throne 3 times.
>
> I don't recall if Duke Michael of Monmouthshire and Duchess Rebekka die  Blonde have ruled two or three times.  If three, then I think that's the only  other set of triples we have in Ansteorra.
>
> ..wonder if we'll get new blood again, or a re-run next Crown?  Time will  tell.
>
> -- Vashti
Vashti,
As I'm friends with the autocrat for the next crown tourney, I can tell
you that the odds are for a new blood to win. As to who, anybody's
guess is as good as mine. Also, FYI Duke Michael and Duchess Rebekka
have reigned twice.
Marke
From: salley@niktow.canisius.edu (David Salley)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: SCAidians who FRP games (part II)
Date: 10 Oct 92 12:48:27 GMT
Organization: Canisius College, Buffalo NY. 14208

Hal Ravn writes:
> the SCA has a lot to teach gamers and (especially)
> game designers about how medievaloid worlds have to work if they're to
> make sense and how muscle-powered weapons work in practice.

Agreed! From the GURPS [Generical Universal Role Playing System] Handbook: p114
"Shields in Close Combat -- In close combat, a shield becomes a potentially
deadly nuisance.  It still provides its passive defense.  However, it hampers
you while you wear it.  Any attack you make in close combat has a penalty
equal to the passive defence of your shield!  ...  It takes one turn, with
a successful DX [dexterity] roll, to get rid of your shield during a close
combat."

The book defines 'one turn' as 'one second in real time'  In the first place,
I don't see how you could get rid of a shield in one second let alone under
combat conditions unless the shield is ONLY hand held and not attached to
your arm.  In the second place, if you don't want a shield in combat, why
are you wearing one??  My lady and I laughed hysterically when we first read
this.
                                                       - Dagonell

SCA Persona : Lord Dagonell Collingwood of Emerald Lake, CSC, CK, CTr
Habitat	    : East Kingdom, AEthelmearc Principality, Rhydderich Hael Barony
Disclaimer  : A society that needs disclaimers has too many lawyers.
Internet    : salley@niktow.cs.canisius.edu
USnail-net  : David P. Salley, 136 Shepard Street, Buffalo, New York 14212-2029
A bad day in the list still beats a good day in the office.  -- Dagonell
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: lcatlett@milton.u.washington.edu (Lynn Catlett)
Subject: Re: ... "Autocr Dancing from Pictures; Waivers
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 22:37:10 GMT

>wondering why the women are dressed like mushrooms)

>>So tell us, Aryk, why ARE the women dressed like mushrooms???

Don't forget, Uncle Aryk, tell us HOW a mushroom dresses, too!!

All agog,
Lynn

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: dawyd@dorsai.com (David Gurzynski)
Subject: Re: Linen and wool
Organization: The Dorsai Embassy +1.718.729.5018
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 12:43:14 GMT

     There are several companies out there where you can send for flax which 
only needs to be spun, already hackled.  If there is an interest I'll check 
some of my wife's old copies of Spin-Off and check the advertisements.  

-- 
David Gurzynski                            Brooklyn NY
Prodigy: KGHM08A  and davidg6642@aol.com
Baron Dawyd z Gury CS CSC           East/ Crown Province of Ostgardr
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Unescorted Minors at Events
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 15:40:53 GMT
Keywords: minors releases

In article <1992Oct15.181115.12559@progress.com> schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei) writes:
>Patri ibn Cariadoc wrote about how to greet people who bring minors
>to a distant event, without release or medical treatment forms.
>
>Patri, I admire your desire to do a good deed, and hang the consequences,
>and let those people into the event.  But you don't understand the
>possible consequences, I suspect.

[Tibor lays out lots of worrysome, potential, consequences.]

A couple of observations....

In the time since the SCA started, there have been changes in both
membership and society at large.  The US (where *most* of us live) has
become more litigious--people's first reaction to anything they don't
like is more 'sue the bastards' than it has ever been before.  In the
early days of the Society, suing the SCA or any of it's members would
have been pretty pointless--very few SCA folk had enough real assets
to be *worth* suing.  This has changed.  There is now enough
collective resources in the hands of SCA members to make recovering a
fair amount a plausible expectation.  Combining these two gradual
developments probably has more to do with the growth of restrictions,
bureacracy and paperwork than anything else.

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
From: rhaven@cruzio.santa-cruz.ca.us
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Armour requirements -- Women
Summary: Armor for women's breasts: same as for men's
Date: Tue, 06 Oct 92 23:28:34 PDT
Reply-To: rhaven@cruzio.santa-cruz.ca.us



This again?  I thought the last time through, the Board (specifically
in the person of Mark Johnson) admitted that it was a silly paragraph
that made it in by mistake.  Talk to martial artists about chest protection.
Now protecting the upper groin so the overies don't get whacked, there's
an issue.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: SAUNDRSG@qucdn.queensu.ca (Graydon)
Subject: fiction, reality, doing the same thing, and barons
Organization: The Internet
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 16:54:00 GMT

Fair and earnest warning - that's one subject, not four!

The assertion that the SCA 'lost all links to reality' by defining
Period as pre-1600 Western Europe and contact cultures appears to
presuppose that we are all supposed to be doing the same thing in the
specific.

I can find no support for this idea in Corpora; in fact, the Preface
to the organizational handbook makes it quite clear that this is *not*
the intent from the POV of the Board.

So, while we are all supposed to be recreating some aspects of the
Middle Ages and Renaisance, the aspects and extent are un-specified.
Which is why I *much* prefer the phrasing 'an organization of recreators;,
rather than a 'recreation organization' - it does not bind us to any
central concept of correctness.

This is, in my view, a Good Thing; the SCA is very diverse, something which
I like, and a central concept of correctness needs must be phrased very
carefully and be well understood to not restrict diversity.

When it comes to Barons, I think it is *much* better to look at Barons from
a pragmatic standpoint that from any consideration of general belief about
political structures.

If the populace can petition the Crown to replace the Barons, and if the Crown
can require the populace to advance a new baronial candidate, that ought to
be enough.  (Binding the Crown to accept the choice of the populace is not
really neccesary, in my view - it should be possible for the Crown to tap
someone else if they think it is important enough to be worth the fallout.)

This lets the nasty arguments happen on a case by case basis, and it's the
case-by-case stuff that is a real problem anyway.

Graydon
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: STEWARTL%WOO1.LEA1@leav-emh.army.MIL (LOU STEWART)
Subject: Introduction
Organization: The Internet
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 19:25:57 GMT

Greetings, gentle readers of Rialto.  I am Luigsech ni hIfearnain, of
the incipient shire of Callanish Nuadh in Calontir.  Our group hopes
to be a full shire in a few months; we have around 20 national members
and will be hosting our second event at the end of this month.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Seneschal's courts
From: Joshua Kronengold <JOKHC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Date: Wednesday, 14 Oct 1992 16:01:12 EDT
 <1992Oct13.184518.4517@PA.dec.com><1992Oct14.144836.8947@morgan.ucs.mun.ca><1992Oct14.171240.9492@pbhya.PacBell.COM>
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center

In article <1992Oct14.171240.9492@pbhya.PacBell.COM>, whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM
(Wilson Heydt) says:
>
>In article <1992Oct14.144836.8947@morgan.ucs.mun.ca> andrew@bransle.ucs.mun.ca
>(Andrew Draskoy) writes:
>
>>It may not always be a case of "want", so much as "need".  Doesn't corpora
>>require 25 paid members to form a barony?
>
>20, I think.
50, I think (The cry of "fifty members!" having been raised most often in
the canton of whyte whey)
From: deeds@oracle (Deanna J. Deeds)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Cardweaving
Date: 14 Oct 92 16:28:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: hacgate.23634
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

Dave Aronson (Dave.Aronson@p11.f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org) wrote:
: Vashti (Ruth.Woodring@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org) writeth:
: 
:  RW> Card weaving or  tablet weaving, is done
:  RW> with 4 threads intead of just two, threaded through  
:  RW> the holes punched in the corners of the cards.
: 
: A thought occurs.  Has anybody tried this with cards other than square?  Maybe
: even ones with an odd number of sides?

I have seen reference to hexagonal and triangular cards, hence I
believe they have been successfully used.  I have
only tried rectangular, to date.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: What is a Baron 
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 17:43:05 GMT

Fiacha, you have some interesting (and appealing) ideas, but I find one
overriding problem with them. They aren't medieval, and they are
overly simplified.

I can't think of a single reason why any group that wishes to pretend
to have royal appointments, be able to assume them. Perhaps there are
(indeed, there are) reasons why not having some sort of feudal structure
for a small group is unfair, but I find your solution unappealing.

However, what I might find more appealing, is to loosen the rules to
allow royalty to appoint a reeve, or knight or some equivalent, as
his representative to present Kingdom level awards to locals.  This
would ease some of the burden on Royalty, and provide all the meaning
you were looking for.

The difference?  My solution is within the medieval framework (except
for our award system, which isn't really).  Yours is not.  Also, this
allows the local king to make a determination of necessity for such
a person.  I'm not sure it's an improvement over what we have now,
but at least it throws some weight behind a medieval model.

The Seneschal is the equivalent of a local chapter vice-president.
They, in reality, should have little to no authority within the scope
of our re-enactment.  (Like you, though, I think Vashti's reasoning
is incorrect.  In my opinion, the Seneschal has delegated the authority
for an event to the autocrat, and should only step in if it's time to
fire the autocrat.)

One unavoidable problem, is that either proposal removes one of the
major reasons to become a Barony, and I think that's a shame.  Under
most conditions, it would be desirable for a group that could, to
grow.  I recognize that some can't, won't or shouldn't.

Fiacha, what do you think of my counter-proposal?

As for groups cooperating to put on events, Baronies sometimes have
to, as well.  When our local autocrat's put together Crown Tourney
in April 91, we used equipment, serving dishes and people from many
neighboring groups.  And, we continue to expect to help them when
they need it.  If groups in your area don't help each other out,
regardless of size or distance or group-type, well, you have a problem
worth solving.  Regardless of the Barony/Principality/Canton/Shire
discussion.

	Tibor
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
[I'm just showin' you my opinions: this ain't a gift]
From: Beth.Appleton@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Kludged Welsh house name....
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 19:36:54

 Here's a rather bad translation of the Welsh for 
    'House of those who show up at Dave's on Tuesdays'
  Annedd o-y rhai yna ymddangosiad yn Dafydd ar Dydd Mawrth
backtracking through the ol' dictionary, that's approximately...
  Dwelling of those who're appearing at Dave's on Tuesday
  The grammer really stinks, because I couldn't find my grammer book, 
 only the dictionary.  So, it's not really Welsh, it's just English 
 translated into Welsh.  However, if you submitted this, (assuming, of 
 course, that you'd even *want* to), then Mistress Ceridwen from out 
 West will get a crack at it, and she can make the grammar right.  And 
 yes, Welsh grammar is fairly different from English, especially modern 
 English.
     Gwenllian Cwmystwyth ferch Morfudd

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: salley@niktow.canisius.edu (David Salley)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Multi-Multi-Dukes (was Re: Dancing from Pictures; Waivers)
Date: 8 Oct 92 13:25:07 GMT
Organization: Canisius College, Buffalo NY. 14208

Aryk writes:
> >When they're done they'll finish by telling you how their kings can do
> >anything they want, and how they don't even know what "curia" means, and
> >look Jade won a tournament again.
 
Hal responds:
> And, yes, Jade just won a tournament again last Saturday.  It will be
> his 7th reign--one behind James Greyhelm.

I'm curious, who's current record holder for most times on the throne?
Is Paul of Bellatrix still in the lead?  I'd be interested in a list for
each kingdom of who's been on more than ... oh say... three times and 
how many times they've each been on.  Principalities are welcome to play
too.  I'll try to get the definitive list for the East over this weekend.

                                                       - Dagonell

SCA Persona : Lord Dagonell Collingwood of Emerald Lake, CSC, CK, CTr
Habitat	    : East Kingdom, AEthelmearc Principality, Rhydderich Hael Barony
Disclaimer  : A society that needs disclaimers has too many lawyers.
Internet    : salley@niktow.cs.canisius.edu
USnail-net  : David P. Salley, 136 Shepard Street, Buffalo, New York 14212-2029
A bad day in the list still beats a good day in the office.  -- Dagonell
From: rhaven@cruzio.santa-cruz.ca.us
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Why have the SCA, Inc.?
Summary: Who is this 'RHAVEN'?
Date: 13 Oct 92 03:00:33 GMT
Reply-To: rhaven@cruzio.santa-cruz.ca.us



Sorry I didn't sign my reply (this vi stuff is really weird).

RHAVEN = Richard of Seahaven
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: badger@wixer.cactus.org (Badger)
Subject: Re: On Barons and Membership
Organization: Real/Time Communications
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 92 03:52:36 GMT

	All this talk of term limits for Barons, voting on this or that,
members wanting more say in the decisions of the BoD, and generally adding
greatly to the bureaucracy of the Society disturbes me greatly. The idea of
doing anything not directly related to the Society as a legal entity in the
mundane world on the basis of a majority vote makes me slightly ill. 

	The purpose of the BoD is to provide a minimal interface with mundane
legalities, all other business of the Society should be handled through the
medieval structure of the Kingdoms. To me, this means if the populace of a
Barony is having difficulty with their Nobility then they should petition the
Crown for action on the matter.  The Crown should then look into the matter,
poll the populace <this does not mean take a 'vote', but rather ask for letters
and recomendations ffrom the populace, speak with influencial members of the
Barony, and the Baron<esse> him/herself.> weigh the information gathered, and
then make a decision.

	I view the, seemingly, very rapid rise of the bureaucracy in the
Society with more than a little horror.  In Ansteorra, now, we have to be
Authorized to shoot Target Archery! The authorization is simple and quick 
but the Idea is offensive. The newly published marshalate rule even specify
the approved method for removing an arrow from a butt, and any infraction
of the rules are grounds for revoking the authorization.

	Much more bureaucracy, and its associated rules and regulations, and
this game is going to cease to be fun for, in my opinion, a large portion
of the populace, and this 20+ year old Dream that we all share is going to
start turning nightmarish, and I, for one, don't voluntarily hang around for
nightmares.


-- 
| Kenneth W. Scott        | Lord Gunter von Wissenberg  | Azure, a badger's   |
| Badger                  | Collegium Turris Animarum   | head erased Or      | 
| (Meles meles)           | In the Barony of Bryn Gwlad | masked sable, within|
| badger@wixer.cactus.org | In the Kingdom of Ansteorra | an orle Or. (I hope)|
From: Ruth.Woodring@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Ruth Woodring)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet