Newsgroups: alt.consciousness
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 23:56:11 -0500 
From: Tom Lord <lord+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: I like Zen (was Re: I like consciousness)
	<Nov.23.11.58.02.1992.22974@ruhets.rutgers.edu>


   I am my most effective when I am not thinking. 

I think you mean that you are your most effective when you are not in
a frame of mind in which you you could describe your thoughts.  Your
brain is still working at those times -- its just not preoccupied with
conceptual introspection.  I would still call that state thinking --
but i think i know what you mean.

One thing that i find interesting about your use of `thinking' is that
it appears to be very focused on the kinds of thoughts that can be
communicated using conventional languages.  Thinking, in your book, is
a social activity.  Aspects of your brain's activity that are private
or truly individual you seem to deny the status of thought.  Hmm.



  I disagree with this statement [that brains optimize]. Based on my
  observations of my self and many other people, they are pretty
  random in whether they improve or not. 

Maybe you mean that people don't always improve useful skills.
Sometimes they get better and better at stupid things.  Also, a lot of
people find a niche, at which point their improvements become subtle.



  Sounds like you've been very fortunate in life. I observe most people
  fall into the equivalent of hypnosis and stay there most of their
  lives. 

  Our brains can only fall into helpful states if you can let the data
  in. If you're too busy telling yourself things should be this way or
  things should be that way then you never have a chance to collect any
  real data.

Have you noticed that the hypnotized people get better and better at
being hypnotized and at building upon the social mechanisms that put
them under?  I think they `let in' lots of data, but not data that is
especially useful if the goal is to nurture human lives.  Their brains
are indeed helpful, just not to their bodies.



  You have misunderstood what is meant by no-mind. As it is doomed to be
  misunderstood  when one conceptualizes it. When a person is a master
  in a physical skill, there is no thought at all in the action. There
  is just a doing, and that's it. There is no trying in no-mind. "No
  try. Do, not do. No Try"-Yoda

Oh what a crock.  Doomed indeed.  

Skills involve plans, problems solving, complicated monitoring and
feedback -- in short, thought.  Yoda is just telling us that the plans
and problem solving only need to be done so as to drive the motor
skills actually involved in the work.  That is, more often or not,
there is no need to talk about our plans, think about them abstractly,
recognize them for what they are, etc.  I don't think it's literally
`no thought' -- it's more like: ``The thought you are trying for is
not the thought you can think about independently from acting on it.
The thought that invokes the action is different from the thought that
thinks it is trying to invoke the action.''  Yoda isn't trying to turn
off all the neurons in luke's head -- he's just pointing out that
luke's brain is so busy with one thought (``i'm trying'') that it is
blocking out the needed thought (whatever thought it is that ends up
triggering his telekinesis, if i remember correctly).

  My original post was in response to someone's description of
  meditation, and I tried to respond by giving a brief explanation of
  what my form of meditation is like. If you find my explanations vague,
  that cannot be helped, because it is purely experiential. It is not an
  experience that can possibly be captured by words. Therefor, I can
  only recommend the prerequisites for achieving such an experience.

I am not trying to `capture' an experience in words.  I am trying
(clumsily i admit) to assemble words that are an accurate reflection
of the experience.  Note that, unlike n-thousand years ago, we have a
lot of knowledge about how brains behave computationally and
physically (and more coming in every day).  This should allow us to
construct meaningful models of increasingly many human experiences.
The models are not the same thing as the experience, but they are
maps for explorers.



  But before you talk meditation, find a teacher and DO meditation.
  Before you talk zen, spend some time DOING zen.

yeah, right, whatever.

Newsgroups: alt.cd-rom