From: ingles@engin.umich.edu (Ray Ingles)
Subject: Re: source of morality for atheists
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 92 17:03:07 EDT
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor

In article <92504@netnews.upenn.edu> stuart@pixmap.seas.upenn.edu (Joseph Stuart ) writes:
>In article <1992Oct11.095641.19466@bmerh85.bnr.ca> dgraham@bmers30.bnr.ca (Douglas Graham) writes:
>>In article <92484@netnews.upenn.edu> stuart@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Joseph Stuart ) writes:
>> [expouses rational self-interest]
>>
>
>Perhaps I am being naive and idealistic about my own feelings, but I don't
>think that I help other people out of enlightened self interest.  Nor do
>I want that to be the only reason I help other people.  There are many
>people for whom I would definately make sacrifices, and worsen my own
>situation in order to better theirs.  

 Sure. You'd feel bad if they were unhappy, and good if they were happy.
It's in your interest to insure that they are happy.
 Plug for my own personal ideas: I think that emotions are not *irrational*
but (my own, made-up term) *prerational.* A computer is nothing but
rationality; an animal (a wolverine, say) has precious little rationality.
The animal gets a lot done, though not necessarily intelligently; the
computer gets nothing done on its own, as it has no emotions to act as
spurs to action. Rationality is a tool to be used to seek goals; it says
nothing, really, about what goals we choose.
 Another tack: Mathematics, logic, etc. *have to* (as far as I know) be
based on unproven and unproveable assumptions; in a tenuous anology,
emotions form the basis for our minds; what goals we seek, etc.
 Obviously, emotions and goals can conflict; then you have to use some
rationality to decide between them. To take an extreme example, say I get
gangrene in my leg. I want to live, but I also like having the traditional
number of legs. I have to decide which is more important; i.e. maximize
my happiness among conflicting goals.
 I want to help people I love. It makes me happy when they are happy, and
sad when they aren't. Hence, it's in my best interest to work for their
(and my own) happiness. Do I need a 'rational reason' to love them? No,
but it helps...:->
 How's that for one possible answer?

>>I think that we could all enjoy a better quality of life if we were to
>>cooperate with one another, rather than competing with and exploiting
>>each other.  I haven't yet figured out how that would be best implemented
>>in practice though.
>
>I agree, but should self interest be the only reason that we cooperate 
>with each other?

 Some might argue that *everything* we do is motivated by self-interest on
one level or another... people do 'selfless' things because it makes them
feel good (or, at least, less bad than if they didn't).

>>>I suppose that you could argue that we should be evolutionarily pre-disposed
>>>toward helping one another since we have similar genes.  But, that doesn't
>>>make it very palatable.
>>
>>What's not palatable?  Helping one another?
>
>I mean that the idea that helping other people is caused solely by the
>biological drive to propagate the human genetic information.

 I personally think that genes made a mistake (yes, that's a metaphor,
genes don't *really* do anything with intent, they just are, but it's
a *convenient* metaphor) when they evolved intelligence to the human
level; we can do things our genes don't code for and wouldn't want to
code for. I personally am glad they made that mistake, but from their
point of view it was a bad move.

>It probably sounds like I am flip-flopping on this issue, but I am just
>trying to figure out where I stand, or actually, why I stand where I 
>seem to think I do.

 No, no, keep thinking. When you think you have *the* answer, *then* you
can worry... :->

>scott
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Grown-ups never understand anything by themselves, and it is tiresome for
>children to be always and forever explaining things to them.
>	- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Nice quote. Where can I find it?

Sincerely,

Ray Ingles                  || The above opinions are probably
                            || not those of the University of
ingles@engin.umich.edu      || Michigan. Yet.