HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bdboyle@erenj.com (Bryan D. Boyle)
Subject: Re: Ordination of women yet again *sigh*
Organization: Exxon Research and Engineering Co., NJ
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 13:27:20 GMT

In article <199211171803.AA05453@caritas.cotdazr.org> "Gordon C. Zaft" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG> writes:
>On Nov 16, 11:17pm, andy wrote:
>} Subject: Re: Church of England & women priests
>} In article <92Nov12.204608est.9084@rock.db.toronto.edu>, jdd@db.toronto.edu
>} (John DiMarco) says:
>} >
>} >U14663@uicvm.uic.edu writes:
>} >Maybe you and others should seriously consider the possibility that God
>} >isn't calling women to be priests, and that the Vatican and the Orthodox
>}
>}  How do you know that there are no women who wish to be priests? If no women
>} are called, than there is no harm in changing the rules, is there?
>
>        Women wishing to be priests does not equate to women being called
>by God to be priests.
>}
>} >Patriarchs are being faithful to the will of God in their refusal to conform
>} >to popular demands for the "ordination" of women?
>}
>} Where has God said this? Where is it in scripture. Proof please.
>
>        Whoa, here.  Those desiring to change the rules have the burden
>of proof!  Where in Scripture does it say that God wants women to be
>priests.
>
Gordon: you know it is a common trick for the "other side" to place the
burden of proof on the established tradition to defend its own
existence, i.e.: anything goes, there are no rules, so defend the
existence of the rules I want to do away with...I forget the canonical
name of that fallacy, but will look it up....

BB


Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: jocallag@bach.helios.nd.edu (john ocallaghan)
Subject: Re: polls and women priests
Organization: OUC, University of Notre Dame
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 18:37:30 GMT

In article <6088@mccuts.uts.mcc.ac.uk> mfulsmb@uts.mcc.ac.uk (Martin Barry) writes:
>In article <1992Nov18.170557.17804@news.nd.edu> jocallag@bach.helios.nd.edu (john ocallaghan) writes:
>
>>3) His own conversion to the RC church occurred as a result of his reading
>>of the Church Father's and the discovery in them of what amounted to an
>>axiom for determining what the whole Church holds as of the original deposit
>>of faith, namely "Ubi Roma est, ibi ecclesia est," (Where Rome is, there the
>>Church is.)  By his own account, constantly reading this, and seeing appeal
>>made to this by the Church fathers, eliminated the final obstacles to 
>>joining the RC church, and he converted.
>
>Quite so. What very obviously doesn't follow from your point (3) is the
>curious idea that Rome hands out the truth to the rest of the Church; nor
>that all that has ever been uttered from the See of Rome necessarily concurs
>with the original deposit of faith.

Quite so.  But of course I did not draw that conclusion.

>
>>The point is, if we are going to appeal to Newman for our understanding of
>>"consulting the faithful" we ought not ignore the whole of what he had to
>>say about the matter.
>
>I couldn't agree more. Newman's understanding of the Church takes the wind
>out of the sails both of secularism and of ultramontanism. Here are a couple
>more ideas of Newman's that I perceive to be relevant.
>
>"He was sure of this: anyone who imagines the Church of Christ to be nothing
>but Popes, bishops, clergy, will have to rethink his divinity {= religious
>knowledge} if he reads his history of the fourth century. 'There were
>untrustworthy councils, unfaithful bishops, there was weakness, fear of
>consequences, misguidance, delusion, hallucination, endless, hopeless,
>extending itself into nearly every corner of the Catholic Church.' He quoted
>a phrase of St. Hilary of Poitiers: 'the ears of the common people are
>holier than the hearts of the priests.'" [_Newman_, by Owen
>Chadwick, Oxford University Press, 1983] The quotes from Newman's own
>writing are from _On Consulting the Faithful on Matters of Doctrine_, pp 77
>and 85.
>
>"If I am obliged to bring religion into after-dinner toasts (which indeed
>does not seem quite the thing) I shall drink, - to the Pope if you please -
>still to Conscience first, and to the Pope afterwards." [_Difficulties of
>Anglicans_ by Newman, p261]
>

Yet another quote from Cardinal Newman: "Only he who is prepared to obey
may argue."  "Newman" by Ian Kerr
It is also interesting to note that *after* Vatican Council I, Newman
assented to the Doctrine of Papal Infallibility as proclaimed by the Council,
even though he argued against it as it was being formulated.

Peace,
John


Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
From: bobv@spike.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Bob von Buelow)
Subject: Re: Importing priests
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 15:36:21 GMT

"Gordon C. Zaft" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG> writes:
>}
>} Wait.  Africans you say?  Won't work, at least down here.  I'll be willing to
>} bet that there are many parishes which would fold before accepting a black
>} priest on a regular basis.
>
>        Then fold they should, since they've already left the Catholic
>Church (at least partly) by denying the validity of its orders.

Whoa there Gordon.  Nobody said they denied the validity of orders, they
just would be exhibiting a non-loving prejudicial attitude.  They haven't
left the church.  I certainly think this would be a very sad situation
but it would not preclude me from loving my brother and sister New
Orlean's catholics, even as I would urge them to reconsider their
thoughts and actions.

Let's ease up on this 'they're not part of the church' stuff.  We all
are sinners, but God love us anyway.

Bob

--
Bob von Buelow             Mars Observer Planning and Sequencing Element
bobv@spike.jpl.nasa.gov          - standard disclaimers apply -
From: DKOVACS@KENTVM.BITNET (Diane Kovacs)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.cwis-l
Subject: LIBRES E-Journal Call for Papers
Date: 17 Nov 92 19:43:57 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Comments: To: pacs-l@uhupvm1.BITNET, govdoc-l@psuvm.psu.edu,
          libref-l@kentvm.kent.edu, cwis-l@wuvmd.BITNET, cni-directories@cni.org

LIBRES: Library and Information Science Research Electronic Conference
(ISSN: 1058-6768)
(published monthly)

LIBRES was founded in April 1991 as a prototype electronic journal
designed to foster library and information science research and
and support the development of our knowledge base in the electronic
networking environment.

LIBRES publishes articles, drafts and reports of research in progress and
solicits reviews and responses from subscribers.   All articles, reports,
etc. remain the property of the author and may be re-published elsewhere.

LIBRES also publishes announcements, questions and responses for library
and information science related events and subjects.
Submissions and questions should be sent to EDITORS@KENTVM.KENT.EDU or
EDITORS@KENTVM

Subscription is open to anyone interested.
You may subscribe to LIBRES by sending a subscribe command by interactive
message or by e-mail.  To subscribe by e-mail message send an e-mail
LISTSERV@KENTVM or LISTSERV@KENTVM.KENT.EDU (if you are on the Internet)
with the following command as the text of the message.

SUB LIBRES YourFirstname YourLastname

You must leave the subject line *empty* and please don't include any extra text
as a machine will read this not a human.

The Editorial Group:
=====================================================================
Diane K. Kovacs - Chief     dkovacs@kentvm  dkovacs@kentvm.kent.edu
Leslie Haas                 lhaas@kentvm    lhaas@kentvm.kent.edu
Don Kraft                                   kraft@bit.csc.lsu.edu
Elizabeth Lane                              elane3@ua1vm.ua.edu
Laure M. Mackay                             lmmackay@mailbox.syr.edu
Amey Park                   apark@kentvm    apark@kentvm.kent.edu
Kara Robinson               krobinso@kentvm krobinso@kentvm.kent.edu
Barbara Schloman            bschloma@kentvm bschloma@kentvm.kent.edu
====================================================================
Tom Froehlich               tfroehli@kentvm   tfroehli@kentvm.kent.edu
Ellen Detlefsen             ellen@pittvms     ellen@idis.lis.pitt.edu
Rosemary Dumont             rdumont@kentvm    rdumont@kentvm.kent.edu
Stevan Harnad                                 harnad@princeton.edu
Ann Okerson (tentative)                       ann@cni.org
=====================================================================
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.cwis-l
Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 07:29:26 PST
From:         "Dave Tindall - Seattle Pacific University"
              <d_tindall@LUKE.SPU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: CWIS Policies, Procedures, Guidelines, etc.
Comments: To: CWIS-L@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu

>
> I would like to receive any copies of CWIS policies as well and have
> written to several schools for copies.  If there are any available that
> can be FTP'd I would like to know....Thank You.
>
> Kim Granquist (kgranqu3@ua1vm.ua.edu)

Excuse the message I just sent...without these valuable comments...

The NSF had a project to collect information on policies and procedures from
many academic institutions. I received a list of 70-80 "policy and procedure"
documents that institutions have submitted to that project within the last
week or so.

anonymous ftp to nnsc.nsf.net
cd to "policies-procedures"
the policy-procedure documents are listed by organization

>===============================================================<
: David W. Tindall                              SSSS            :
: Executive Director                            S    PPPP       :
: Seattle Pacific University                    SSSS P  P U  U  :
: Computer & Information Systems                   S PPPP U  U  :
: INTERNET:  d_tindall@luke.spu.edu             SSSS P    U  U  :
: PHONE & VOICE MAIL: (206)281-2239                  P    U  U  :
: FAX: (206)281-2850                                      UUUU  :
>===============================================================<
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Organization: Michigan State University Computer Lab
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.cwis-l
Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1992 11:44:50 EST
From:         Dennis Boone <DRBMAINT@MSU.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: SUMMARY - Tools to clean-up text
              20 Nov 1992 09:32:11 -0600 from <Albert-Lunde@NWU.EDU>

On Fri, 20 Nov 1992 09:32:11 -0600 Albert Lunde said:
>By the way I have the TEXTCON program mentioned as a ZIP file.

For those who are interested:

I found TEXTCON on wuarchive.wustl.edu in
/mirrors3/archive.umich.edu/msdos/un_indexed/textcn.arc

This version has an old date.  The author is local to me, and I've inquired
about the program.

Dennis
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.cwis-l
Date:         Sun, 15 Nov 1992 14:03:00 CST
From:         Kim Granquist <KGRANQU3@UA1VM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: CWIS Policies, Procedures, Guidelines, etc.

I would like to receive any copies of CWIS policies as well and have
written to several schools for copies.  If there are any available that
can be FTP'd I would like to know....Thank You.

Kim Granquist (kgranqu3@ua1vm.ua.edu)
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.cwis-l
Date:         Mon, 23 Nov 1992 17:45:31 EST
From:         Richard W Wiggins <RWWMAINT@MSU.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: BOF at Dallas CAUSE92

>OK, I give up....what's a BOF get-together?
>My Webster's New World says BOF is a "basic oxygen furnace"!

"BOF" = conference-speak for "Birds of a Feather" session = typically
informal brainstorming or latest-news chat among a specific affinity
group.

/Rich Wiggins, Gopher Coordinator, Michigan State U
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.cwis-l
Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 19:21:16 CST
From:         Dave Beedle <dbeedle@RS6000.CMP.ILSTU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Heartland Freenet
Comments: To: CWIS-L@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu
              Nov 19, 92 4:36 pm

In a recent message Mark Oglesby wrote:
>
> My documentation for accessing Heartland Freenet says:
>
>    telnet heartland.bradley.edu
>    login as fnguest
>
> When I login as fnguest, I am prompted for a password.  What should I enter?
> Or, more to the point, what is the prescribed way to get into Heartland?

   That recently was changed.  If you want to sign on as a guest bbguest is the
account to use.

TTFN
--
  Dave Beedle                                     Office of Academic Computing
                                                     Illinois State University
  Internet:  dbeedle@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu                     136A Julian Hall
   "Relax! Don't worry!  Have Homebrew!"                    Normal, IL   61761
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.cwis-l
Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 07:22:23 PST
From:         "Dave Tindall - Seattle Pacific University"
              <d_tindall@LUKE.SPU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: CWIS Policies, Procedures, Guidelines, etc.
Comments: To: CWIS-L@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu

> I would like to receive any copies of CWIS policies as well and have
> written to several schools for copies.  If there are any available that
> can be FTP'd I would like to know....Thank You.
>
> Kim Granquist (kgranqu3@ua1vm.ua.edu)
>
From: copeland@SFU.CA
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.cwis-l
Subject: Re: Tools to clean-up text for posting
Date: 15 Nov 92 17:26:52 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Comments: To: CWIS-L@wuvmd.wustl.edu
              13, 92 5:01 pm

>
> I am writing to ask about the availablity of tools for cleaning up text for
> posting to gopher or other CWIS servers.  I'm especially interested in the
> process of converting word-processed text from Macs or PCs to a least
> common-denominator that will work on micro gopher clients and timesharing
> terminals.
>
> I could write a program, but I'd rather not reinvent the wheel. If you
> can suggest useful tools, send me e-mail at: "Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu".
>
> I will post a summary of responses.
>
> Features that come to mind as useful:
>
> Converting PC, Mac or Unix end-of-line codes to a common form.
>
> Character remapping to make one or two character replacements for Mac or PC
> specific "high ASCII" characters (i.e. bullets, smart quotes, accented
> character), and to replace characters (like square brackets that behave
> badly on EBCDIC terminals).
>
> Expansion of tab characters to spaces (using say 4 or 8 char tab stops)
I"ve found that saving Word files as Courier 12 pt text only with line
breaks works quite well, and files don't require much additional
cleanup. I export Pagemaker files to Word and then save them as text
only with line breaks. Simple, but it works.


--
Lynn Copeland,                        e-mail: Lynn_Copeland@sfu.ca
Mgr. Library Systems,                 v-mail: 604-291-5861
Simon Fraser University               FAX:    604-291-4908
Burnaby, B.C., Canada. V5A 1S2        ENVOY:  L.COPELAND
From: opac!perez%OPAC.osl.or.gov@CS.ORST.EDU (Ernest Perez,
              Oregon State Library)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.cwis-l
Subject: LYNX software
Date: 16 Nov 92 21:07:52 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Comments: To: CWIS-L@WUVMD.WUSTL.EDU

I've just logged onto the KUFACTS CWIS system at Univ. of Kansas, and was
quite impressed with the intuitive nature of the interface.

It is built on the LYNX software platform.  This is homegrown software,
with a hypertext orientation.  Links, point&shoot, whatever you wish to
call the metaphor.  Easy navigation using cursor keys, for text display,
command execution, transparent interface to Gopher and some other systems,
etc.  It is apparently an evolution of the Univ. of Sasketchewan's
HYTELNET, which itself evolved from the interface germ of the MS-DOS
hypertext programs.

How widely known is the LYNX application?  I have only recently subscribed
to CWIS-L, and don't know if it's been the subject of discussion, if it's
spread to other locations, etc.

I'd appreciate any feedback.

Cheers,
-ernest perez

ernest perez ** perez@osl.or.gov ** 503-378-4502
-------------------------------------------------------------------
  "When you come to a fork in the road, take it...."
                              - Yogi Berra
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-VMS-To: IN%"cwis-l@wuvmd.bitnet"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.cwis-l
Date:         Mon, 23 Nov 1992 13:42:00 CST
From:         joe kreitzer <JLKREITZER@STTHOMAS.EDU>
Subject:      a FAQ?
Comments: To: cwis-l <cwis-l@wuvmd.bitnet>

It seems to me that new CWISer's are frequently asking for usage
statistics, policies, costs, packages, etc.

Might it be possible for someone to donate FTP space for these items?
Those willing to volunteer info could 'put' the appropriate docs there
for all of the curious to peruse.

*****************************************************************************
Joe Kreitzer, Associate Professor           Internet: jlkreitzer@stthomas.edu
Departments of Economics                       voice: (612) 647-5869
 & Software Design & Development                 fax: (612) 647-5879
University of St. Thomas
St. Paul, MN  55105-1096
*****************************************************************************
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.cwis-l
From: ullmer@uiuc.edu (Brygg Ullmer)
Subject: Re: Central Management / Desktop Gopher (Universe)
Originator: bau50671@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
Reply-To: ullmer@uiuc.edu
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 02:02:58 GMT

Steve Cavrak <SJC@UVMVM.BITNET> writes:

>On Fri, 13 Nov 1992 04:40:12 EST Shyela Aberman said:
>    As someone pointed out, this gets more complicated because of its
>    nature. If the system is decentralized, management becomes that
>    much harder. What if I turn my machine off every night? The data
>    I have on it becomes unavailable to the rest of the universe. Thus,
>    for now, centralized information servers seem to still have a
>    definite place in CWIS's.

>What we'll see, I think, is a "spreading" of information.  Something that
>probably closely mirrors the paper information systems we're used to.

In many cases, distributed redundancy is one of the most
powerful tools for dealing with distributed information.  For 
instance, any given execution of "archie" is likely to 
return dozens of locations where the same resource
or various versions of the same resource are available.  In the
case of Gopher and other distributed information systems,
one of the key features necessary to seamlessly build upon this 
redundancy is the Universal Document Identifier.  Hopefully, 
these identifiers will offer easy handles on resource versions
so that redundant sources of information can be effectively 
coordinated.

Concerning the point regarding machines turned off at night:  with
decentralized systems, data is often serviced on the 
local networks from a machine which *isn't* turned off.  Mainframes,
Unix workstations, and many other similar machines generally
aren't turned off, either; however, your point is well taken,
and I agree that the coordination of information hosted on 
personal systems is a point which will have to be dealt with.

In terms of Gopher and distributed systems, I've operated for nearly
half a year the Gopher service at the Univ. of South Carolina Dept.
of Mathematics, upon which the vast majority of information is
distributed across the net (access to many, many gigabytes is linked
in, while fewer than 10 megabytes are stored locally).  Downtime
of linked machines has indeed been a significant problem, particularly
in cases where the remote sites only store links to other remote sites
(so while the actual source of information may be up, the Gopher service
can't find its way to the site because the link file is not available).
Intelligent caching would be a real plus here, and is a solution I
hope to implement in the "Personal Gopher" (with personally configurable
information spaces) I'm currently developing.  Here again, though,
redundancy is the key feature I hope to exploit for more constant
uptime of resources.

Brygg Ullmer (ullmer@uiuc.edu)

Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Sender: lunde@casbah.acns.nwu.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.cwis-l
Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1992 09:32:11 -0600
From:         Albert Lunde <Albert-Lunde@NWU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: SUMMARY - Tools to clean-up text
Comments: To: "Campus-Wide Information Systems" <CWIS-L@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu>

>Thanks for doing this Albert.  This is really helpful to me.
>
By the way I have the TEXTCON program mentioned as a ZIP file.

---
    Albert Lunde                      Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu
                                      alunde@nuacvm.bitnet
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.cwis-l
Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1992 12:25:38 PST
From:         "Dave Tindall - Seattle Pacific University"
              <d_tindall@LUKE.SPU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: BOF at Dallas CAUSE92
Comments: To: CWIS-L@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu

David Lapointe writes,

> I wil be attending the CAUSE92 meeting in Dallas (12/1-12/4). I have
> noticed several CWIS sessions (pre-meeting and current issues). Are there
> any plans for a CWIS BOF get together?

I'll also be attending CAUSE in Dallas and would like to participate in a
BOF about CWIS's.

CAUSE has traditionally facilitated these types of gatherings by allowing
notices to be posted on the conference network (I think they used Mac's last
year located throughout the host hotel complex).

>===============================================================<
: David W. Tindall                              SSSS            :
: Executive Director                            S    PPPP       :
: Seattle Pacific University                    SSSS P  P U  U  :
: Computer & Information Systems                   S PPPP U  U  :
: INTERNET:  d_tindall@luke.spu.edu             SSSS P    U  U  :
: PHONE & VOICE MAIL: (206)281-2239                  P    U  U  :
: FAX: (206)281-2850                                      UUUU  :
>===============================================================<
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.cwis-l
Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 17:54:25 -0600
From:         Tamara Iversen <tji@NWU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: SUMMARY - Tools to clean-up text
Comments: To: "Campus-Wide Information Systems" <CWIS-L@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu>

Thanks for doing this Albert.  This is really helpful to me.

Tamara Iversen, NUInfo/ANCS  *|* Wind, Waves, etc. are breakdowns in the
Northwestern University      *|* face of  the commitment to getting
2129 N. Campus Drive         *|* from here to there.  But they are the
Evanston, IL 60208           *|* conditions for sailing - not something
Phone: (708) 491-4420        *|* to be gotten rid of, but something to be
Fax: (708) 491-3824          *|* danced with.
e-mail: tji@nwu.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.cwis-l
Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 09:19:20 -0500
From:         Lou Rosenfeld <lou@SQUIRREL.SILS.UMICH.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Subj- Policies & Procedure
Comments: To: "Campus-Wide Information Systems" <CWIS-L@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu>
              13 Nov 92 08:04:07 -1100." <9211131306.AA11798@csmil.umich.edu>

Carl, we've just finished a collection development policy
for our library gopher.  I can't release it for a week or
two, but I'll get you a copy electronically then.  It's
really pretty general but may be helpful anyway.

--Lou Rosenfeld


--------------------------------------------
Louis Rosenfeld          Assistant Librarian
Information Technology Development
University of Michigan -- University Library
lou@umich.edu           (313) 764-2389
--------------------------------------------
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU