HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: timlin@spot.Colorado.EDU (Michael Timlin)
Subject: Re: J. Gonzales All-time HR King
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 15:04:19 GMT

jrp@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (John Pessetto) writes:

>   I made some guesses about how Juan Gonzalez would finish this season and 
>feed this year and his previous years back into the Brock2 program written by
>David Grabiner.  According to this, he should pass Babe Ruth as the all-time
>homerun hitter.  Also, it looks like he has a chance to pass Maris in the 
>single season homerun record( Of course this happens when he's 27 years old).
>Anyway, it was interesting to look at.

>[stats deleted]

Did you ever hear of Hank Aaron?  Most people consider him to be the HR
king since he hit 755 to Ruth's 714. :)  According to the post JG would
pass him too. (761)

Mike Timlin
timlin@spot.colorado.edu
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: cjwein@watcgl.uwaterloo.ca (Chris J. Wein)
Subject: Re: DAVID CONE TO BLUE JAYS
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 03:16:34 GMT

In article <1992Sep1.022703.14767@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca> sinhaa@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca (Anand Sinha) writes:
>In article <1992Aug31.162943.13131@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:
>>
>>No, White did *adequately* last year.  Even then, his OBP wasn't very
>>good.  And this year?  How many bases do you have to steal to justify
>>a .283 OBP in the leadoff spot?  His defense is great, but his offense
>>seriously hurts the team in the leadoff spot.  Can't they hide him
>>somewhere like sixth or ninth in the order?
>
>Yes, they should.  No amount of speed makes up for the pathetic .290 OBP.  The
>Jays should lead off (here it comes, flame away) Olerud.  Since Alomar
>MUST bat 3rd, Winfield 4th and Carter 5th, the Jays really need to find
>a #2 hitter.  Unless they can find a real leadoff man, and move Olerud to
>the #2 spot, where he belongs.

There is nothing wrong in mentionig Olerud as a leadoff man.  In fact, there
is nothing wrong in suggesting that Brian Downing was quite possibly the
most promising leadoff man in the history of the game.  After all, there
aren't that many people who can hit .250 but have an OBP of around .450.
-- 
==============================================================================
 Chris Wein                           | cjwein@watcgl.waterloo.edu 
 Computer Graphics Lab, CS Dept.      | cjwein@watcgl.uwaterloo.ca
 University of Waterloo               | (519) 888-4548 
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: MCMASTER@LSTC2VM.stortek.com (Jim McMaster)
Subject: Re: Managing in the AL
Organization: StorageTek SW Engineering
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 16:10:15 GMT

In article <1992Aug25.202005.15065@advtech.uswest.com>
steven@jaynes ( Steve Novak) writes:
 
>> = Jim McMaster writes:
>
>>Regardless of whether the DH makes AL managing "easier" or not, I like
>>the rule, because it leads to more offense.  There is not a guaranteed
>>out in the number nine spot.
>
>This whole statement is incorrect.  I know I've heard that the average
>DH batting average is ~.250.  Could one of the Stat Heads help me out?
>
>If you think the 9th spot is an "automatic out", you haven't seen Doc
>Gooden, Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine or Swift of SF at bat (among others).
>These guys can hit and bunt.  Pitchers hitting, IMO, adds strategy not
>present when some (usually) aging one-dimensional player is the 10th man
>in the lineup.
>
>
>--
>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>| Steve Novak |    |"Wacker the K"|
>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>steven@advtech.USWest.Com
 
Perhaps I over-generalized, but I stand by my statement.  Sure, the
batting average of the DH is around .250.  What is the batting average
of all pitchers, I wonder?  Certainly, there are a few pitchers who can
hit, but not many.
 
And did you *really* enjoy seeing Charlton get mowed down by Eckersley
in the All-Star game?  You deleted that part of my original post.
 
Jim McMaster
From: jblixt@neon.cdc.com (jon blixt)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Twins Protected List
Date: 2 Sep 92 14:33:54 GMT
Reply-To: jblixt@mips.COM (jon blixt)
Organization: Your Organization Goes Here

Here is just a trial list of the players IMO the Twins should protect:
(May not know all the free agents, not extremely familair with farm
 system)

Must:                   Free Agents(?)
1)  S. Mack             Puckett
2)  K. Hrbek            Gagne
3)  C. Knoblauch        Smiley
4)  S. Leuis            Larkin
5)  P. Munoz
6)  K. Tapani
7)  S. Erickson
8)  R. Aguilera
9)  C. Davis

Possibles:
1)  W. Banks
2)  M. Trobley
3)  P. Mahomes
4)  M. Jorgenson
5)  C. Willis
6)  M. Guthrie

Look at:
J.T. Bruitt
D. Reed
D. West(PLEASE NO MORE!)
G. Wayne

Who did I forget? Comments and suggestions, please.

-Jon
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: curve@netcom.com (My Name is Your Fate)
Subject: Re: Kreuger trade & a though on Witt
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 92 03:47:57 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

In article <> dxf12@po.CWRU.Edu (Douglas Fowler) writes:
>     My second is, suppose they're not re-signing Eck [... and turning
>     Witt into their closer.

Nice thought, but Eck has been resigned to a two year contract.

>Doug Fowler: dxf12@po.CWRU.edu      :    "Every baby born into the world is
>Real home: Canton, Ohio             :  finer than the last."--Charles Dickens


Curve@netcom.com	|  What is the difference between apathy and ignorance?
			|  I don't know, and I don't care!
From: msw10@nepenthe.as (Michael S. Wong)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Pitchers who hit (again)
Date: 25 Aug 92 23:50:24 GMT
Reply-To: msw10@nepenthe.as
Organization: Sun Microsystems

I went to the Giants and Mets game last night at Candlestick. Dwight Gooden
was pitching, and when he first came to bat I noticed that he is hitting .280.
It seems everytime I watch Gooden he is hitting .260-.280. Later in the game,
Dr. K pulled a pitch over the left field fence. Yet Gooden was still #9 in the
batting order. My question is, why are pitchers
always batted last? The Mets had SS Dick Schofield, who was hitting .205 hitting
second. It seems to me like it would make a lot more sense to bat a pitcher who
has shown he can *consistently* hit above .250 the same place you would bat
any other player who bats >.250. The only reasons I could think of were that
1) everyday players are viewed as too neurotic to be moved from their normal
position in the batting order every 5th day (which maybe explains why the Giants
can't hit as Roger Craig rarely sticks with one lineup this year) or 2) it's
just another stupid tradition managers follow without thinking about.

Any Comments?

Michael Wong
msw10@amdahl.com
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: rja@redwood26.cray.com (Russ Anderson)
Subject: Re: Analysis of Canseco Trade
Originator: rja@redwood26
Organization: The 1991 World Champion Minnesota Twins!
Date: 2 Sep 92 07:54:13 CDT


In article <55946@olivea.atc.olivetti.com>, rsmith@strobe.ATC.Olivetti.Com (Russ Smith) writes:
> In article <18026nINN9lb@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> sfh@po.CWRU.Edu (Steven F. Hubbard) writes:
> >   I agree that most of Oakland's free agents will  be let go after the season.
> >However, I think they will also make an effort to sign Steinbach.  A quality
> >catcher who hits is difficult to find -- he'd also be valuable to a team trying
> >to raise some young starters.  
> 
> They may not be able to sign Steinbach even if they want to. Steinbach has
> been hinting that he is considering signing with the Twins next year because
> he's from Minnesota and would like to go back there, settle down, and raise
> his family there. Assuming the Twins would be interested(and Brian Harper
> is pretty good), its a very logical choice to sign him.

Twins signed Harper for big $'s last year, so won't want another big $ catcher.
Sid Hartman thinks the Twins will sign Steinbach, so it won't happen.
The only possibility would be for the Twins to trade Harper & sign Steinbach
(for similar money), but that seems to be a big step sideways...

-- 
Russ Anderson    |  Disclaimer: Any statements are my own and do not reflect
------------------              upon my employer or anyone else.  (c) 1992
EX-Twins' Jack Morris, 10 innings pitched, 0 runs (World Series MVP!)
From: kettler@mitme5.mit.edu (KETTLER, THOMAS R.)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Managing in the AL
Date: 26 Aug 92 07:20:00 GMT
Organization: MIT Lab for Nuclear Science
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1

In article <1992Aug25.113453.2682@cs.cornell.edu>, tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fische writes...
> 
>Come on!  You know better than that!  Actually I agree with Bill James
>here.  The AL manager has somebody who is (slightly) capable of
>swinging away, and so it isn't at *all* obvious what to tell him to
>do.  If the NL manager wants to keep the pitcher, he has to have the
>pitcher bunt (seeing as the pitcher isn't capable of anything else).
> 

Not so! Actually, I have seen managers hit and run with good hitting pitchers 
or have the runners steal with the pitcher at the plate. 

Plus in the 1988 World Series, Orel Hershiser in Game 2 initially squared as to 
bunt in his second at-bat but pulled his bat back and pulled a ball down the 
third base line past the drawn in Carney Lansford. If Orel wasn't a pitcher 
resulting in Lansford being in for a bunt, this would have just been a ground 
out to the third baseman since it wasn't hit very hard so even Lead-legged 
Lansford could have stopped it and thrown out the lead runner.

Furthermore, pitchers have not always batted ninth. After all for almost all 
of Spahn's career with the Braves, he batted seventh.

The big problem is that most teams do not provide BP for their pitchers since 
they just plan on the pitcher bunting which indicates a lack of originality on 
the part of the manager, not an inability of the pitcher to produce.


					Sincerely yours,

					Thomas R. Kettler "Expos Fanatic"
From: spork@camelot.bradley.edu (Richard Izzo)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: 'Ol George goes for 3000, BUT ...
Date: 30 Aug 92 05:16:54 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Bradley University

In <1992Aug29.192243.15135@cs.cornell.edu> tedward@cs.cornell.edu (Edward [Ted] Fischer) writes:

>In article <1992Aug29.181206.10623@tssi.com> nolan@tssi.com writes:
>>
>>I wonder what the value of having Brett in the lineup is at the box office?
>>Personally, I think he has been a lot more productive at the plate than a
>>few other 'name' players also in the twilight of HOF-caliber careers.
>I agree.  He's been slightly below-average the last couple of years,
>but that isn't equivalent to "worthless".  Even average players have
>significant value.  (Don't I wish the Red Sox had a couple more!)

Considering that Brett is still managing to reach the .270's this season, he's
certainly more valuable than much of the team, considering the team batting
average.


[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
[]  rich.				     Bradley University   []
[]  spork@camelot.bradley.edu		     Peoria, IL	 	  []
[]  "Cute rots the intellect." -Garfield			  [] 
[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
From: trn@warper.jhuapl.edu (Tony Nardo)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Josh Gibson revistited (was Re: J. Gonzales All-time HR King)
Date: 2 Sep 92 19:11:40 GMT
Organization: Johns Hopkins University

kettler@mitme5.mit.edu (KETTLER, THOMAS R.) writes:

>In article <1992Sep2.150419.29270@ucsu.Colorado.EDU>, timlin@spot.Colorado.EDU (Michael Timlin)   writes...
>> 
>>Did you ever hear of Hank Aaron?  Most people consider him to be the HR
>>king since he hit 755 to Ruth's 714. :)  According to the post JG would
>>pass him too. (761)
>> 

>Well, all of you are forgetting Josh Gibson. He hit 800 home runs in the Negro 
>Leagues. It had many better players than those who were in the majors at the 
>same time including Satchel Paige, Cool Papa Bell, himself, etc. [...]

I had read that Josh Gibson had *970* home runs.  Unfortunately, my source was
an article which appeared long ago in the ever-authoritative baseball source
called TV Guide. :-)

The one book which I've found which *does* list stats for the Negro Leagues put
Gibson's home run total somewhere around 140, I believe.  (Maybe not exactly
140, but closer to that number than 200.)  Of course, this source does not list
the full 26 seasons in which Gibson reputedly played baseball, but the years
it shows don't indicate he was a candidate for even a 500+ home run career.

(I wish I *could* find a book which stated that Josh Gibson hit 970 home runs
in the Negro Leagues.  That way the next time someone around here trots out
Oh's name to besmirch us arrogant Americans for claiming to have the all-time
home run leader, I could smugly counter with Gibson! :-) )

If anyone knows an alternate source of Negro League stats which gives the
full 26 years of Gibson's career, even if it's considered apocryphal, I'd
love to hear of it.  McMillan's had to get their data from somewhere...
--
Tony Nardo,		   INET: trn@warper.jhuapl.edu, trn@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu
 Johns Hopkins Univ./APL   UUCP: {backbone!}mimsy!aplcomm!trn
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: steinman@me.utoronto.ca (David Steinman)
Subject: Re: DAVID CONE TO BLUE JAYS
Organization: UofT Mechanical Engineering
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 17:12:25 GMT

psg+@pitt.edu (Paul S Galvanek) writes:

>Although I'm sure there are numerous other reason but with a guy like Sheffield
>who had been anything but a star in the AL suddenly rising to the top of the
>NL in offense and the big stars like Mitchell and Cone getting wasted it would
>appear on the surface that the AL organizations are landing the more talented
>players these days. I can't think of a single player in recent memory that has
>gone from being a NL star to the AL and been able to carry over his success.

>humm?

Hmmmm ... Roberto Alomar maybe?
--
Dave!
From: pr0i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Pravin Devineni Ratnam)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Drabek & Bonds
Date: 25 Aug 92 22:46:24 GMT
Organization: Senior, IM - MCS/CIT Track, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA



Drabek has one big advantage over Bonds. Excellent post season performance.

However, Bonds is very valuable to the club. If ther realignment goes as
planned, then the PIRATES NEED BONDS.


THe Pirates should make a $33 million offer for 5 years to get Bonds,
and then hope for the best.  Atlanta won't make Bonds an offer. I don't
now if ther Mets will after getting burned this season. The Yankees
might.  The Cubs should. 


The Pirates are very short sighted. They wasted 1.7 million on Gibson
because they wanted to add depth to the outfield. Can you imagine how
many changes the Pirates will go through to find a suitable replacement
for Bonds. They will probably waste so much time and money looking for
players to replace Bonds' many assets. 

- He has great speed.
- Very good power
-Very good Average and slugging average
-Excellent ablility to draw walks
-Excellent defense


The Pirates will have to spend more than $6 - 7 million to aquire two
good players who can fill that void. Without Bonds, they will not make
the playoffs which would cost them at least $1 million a year on revenue.


I think that the commenattors are stupid in frequently harping on the
fact that Drabek doesn't get much run support. SUre , Drabek should have
gotten a few more wins. But still, being the ace of the staff, he should
have gotten wins in a few low scoring games. He lost some of those games
because he gave up early runs, or gave up too many hits after an error
which resulted in unearned runs. If you are going to demand more than 5
million dollars a year, you better win some games against marquee
pitchers on a consistent basis.

If the Pirates can't sign Drabek for less than 5.5 million a year,I
think the Pirates are better off looking for a good pitcher whose stats
are victimized by another team's poor defense.
 
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: alchemy@cs1.bradley.edu (Mike Swiston)
Subject: What happened to Grebek?
Keywords: Sox
Organization: salt of the earth in open wounds.
Date: 27 Aug 92 02:32:22 GMT


What happened to Craig Grebek, shortstop for the
White Sox during Guillen's absence?  He was playing
very well, but then he disappeared and the Sox
picked up Sveum.  Now I don't even see Grebek
listed in the Sox team stats printed in the
Tribune each week.  What's up?

alchemy@cs1.bradley.edu    
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: millerm@oakhill.sps.mot.com (Mikemoe)
Subject: Re: J. Gonzales All-time HR King
Organization: Motorola Inc., Austin, Texas
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 15:03:59 GMT

jrp@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (John Pessetto) writes:
>David Grabiner.  According to this, he should pass Babe Ruth as the all-time
>homerun hitter.  Also, it looks like he has a chance to pass Maris in the

I think Hank Aaron has the HR record, right?

>   John Pessetto
From: thornley@nano.cs.umn.edu (David H. Thornley)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: Home Run Rule: Lind's Hit in Dodger-Pirate Game
Date: 26 Aug 92 14:53:35 GMT
Organization: University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, CSci dept.

In article <1992Aug25.235451.823702@locus.com> aardvark@locus.com (Warren Usui) writes:
>In article <BtJxuC.DLu@news.cso.uiuc.edu> jhg8680@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Jon  Hamkins) writes:
>>
>>There are rules discussing how many bases to award when a fielder
>>deflects a ball into the stands.
>>
>
>What would be the ruling if the outfielder intentionally knocked the ball
>out of the park?  For example, let's say I'm playing right field and there
>is a guy on first.  Someone hits a line drive over my head that bounces up
>against the wall.  Can I hold the runner at first to third by throwing
>the ball in the stands?  I'm sure that there has got to be some ruling
>for this or else it would happen more often.
>
I heard or read of it happening sometime.  Might have been a Senator's
game, and I didn't see it myself.  Again, man on first, batter hits one to
deep center, center fielder could field it on a bounce but tips the ball
over the fence instead, reasoning that a ground-rule double will prevent
the runner from scoring on that play.

The difference between "deflected" and "thrown" is important here; if
everybody has advanced a base when the ball is thrown into the stands,
everybody gets two bases from where they were at the time of the throw,
while they get two bases from their starting base if the ball is deflected.

Therefore, if you were the right fielder in your scenario, you could
hold the runner to third by throwing the ball into the stands only if
the batter had not yet reached first.  Typically, the batter will have
rounded first before the outfielder catches up to a liner over his head.

David Thornley

[1] 7.05(g) and Approved Ruling
[2] Niccolo Machiavelli, _The_Art_of_Baseball_, Yogi Berra (tr.)
From: darryl@cs.yorku.ca (Darryl Gamble)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: TRADE: Cone for Kent/PTBNL (Jays/Mets)
Date: 27 Aug 92 16:40:36 GMT
Article-I.D.: yetti.1423
Distribution: world
Organization: York University, Dept. of Comp. Sci. - Toronto

Well, I probably won't be the only person to post this today, but
I have just heard that the free-agent-to-be David Cone was traded
from the Mets to the Jays for Jeff Kent and a player to be named later.

No word on who this player may be, but my guess is either Ed Sprague or
Derek Bell (but Pat Gillick better not have made this move).

Likely the Jays want the player for the rest of the season, and the
post-season (if they make the playoffs).

Anyway, that's the latest...with no news of when Cone will pitch for the
Jays (he last pitched on Saturday).

Darryl Gamble
York University, Toronto
From: ENVIRON@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: CUB'S MADDUX EASY CHOICE FOR CY
Date: 1 Sep 92 18:48:24 GMT
 <1992Sep1.150405.15602@news.iastate.edu>
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center

In article <1992Sep1.150405.15602@news.iastate.edu>, jnelson@iastate.edu (Jeremy
F Nelson) says:
>_HOW_ can you possibily say Wrigley field is a hitter's ballpark?  How many
>times has the wind blown out this season? 6? 7?
> Wrigley field has given up less homers than the Astrodome this year.
> Come on!

     Maybe that's *because* Maddux has been pitching so well..?  And I'm only
half kidding.  It's tough to take one bizarre statistical anecdote as proof
that Wrigley isn't a hitters' park...

Brett
From: msw10@nepenthe.as (Michael S. Wong)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
Subject: Re: The Change-Up
Date: 3 Sep 92 17:34:57 GMT
Reply-To: msw10@nepenthe.as
Organization: Sun Microsystems


In article 4351@remus.rutgers.edu, wapitten@remus.rutgers.edu (William Pittenger) writes:
>
>
>	The change-up is usually held deeper in a pitchers hand and
>can also be held with more fingers on the ball.  This allows the
>pitcher to throw the ball with the same motion that he throws his
>fastball.  This obviously causes the batter to think that he is
>getting a fastball, but the pitcher is much slower, throwing the
>batter's timing off.  Some change-ups can be thrown to allow it to
>"drop off" just before it reaches the plate, but that depends on the
>pitchers grip.  But basically it is held deeper in the hand and
>usually the pitcher holds it with more fingers on the ball.  It is
>used to throw off a batter's timing so the fastball does not become
>too hitable.
>
>-Bill P.
>wapitten@gandalf.rutgers.edu

Also, the "snap of the wrist" that gives a fastball more spin and thus more lift
is absent with a changeup, indeed causing more "drop". Moreover, a changeup is
usually thrown 2-seam, which is also slower and possesses more drop than a 
corresponding 4-seam.

The other interesting pitch, used primarily by Atlanta pitchers, most notably
Tom Glavine is the "circle change". The circle change involves using the middle
and ring fingers on top of the ball as opposed to the index and middle fingers
on a fastball. The circle change gets its grip from the circle that the index
and thumb make on the grip (like the "OK" sign). I believe the replacement of
the index finger with the weaker ring finger combined with the new placement
of the index finger (which moves the ball farther back in the palm) reduces
the speed, giving the "change". Also, I believe the relative difference in 
strength between the middle and ring fingers gives the change a minor
"nickel-slider" effect: a circle-change thrown by a right hander will 
run in a little on a right handed batter. Of course, like with any other change,
a circle-change will drop more than a fastball.


Michael Wong.
msw10@amdahl.com
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball
From: trn@warper.jhuapl.edu (Tony Nardo)
Subject: Re: Home Run Rule: Lind's Hit in Dodger-Pirate Game
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
Date: 25 Aug 92 17:27:08 GMT

charly@hal.COM (Charly Rhoades) writes:


>Rules-folk:  Did any of you happen to see the Jose Lind hit during
>yesterday's Dodgers-Pirates game?  From the excerpt I saw the ball
>was batted off the outfieled wall, and as it was coming down off the
>wall, the outfielder inadvertantly knocked the ball (with his hand
>or glove) back up and over the wall.

>It was ruled a double at the time.  Any comments?

I saw the replay.  This would've made for a good rules trivia question. :-)

Rule 7.05 (a) awarding a home run doesn't apply -- the ball was off the wall
and hence not "in flight" as defined under section 2.00.

Rule 7.05 (f) awarding a double doesn't apply -- the ball was deflected into
the stands *inside* the first and third base foul lines.

The ground rules may apply, but I don't know what the ground rules for that
particular park are.

The ruling was probably made under 9.01 (c), granting the umpire authority
to rule on any point not specifically covered under the rules.

One of the two clauses above (under 7.05) really should be changed to cover a
ball being deflected into the stands inside the foul lines...
--
Tony Nardo,		   INET: trn@warper.jhuapl.edu, trn@aplcomm.jhuapl.edu
 Johns Hopkins Univ./APL   UUCP: {backbone!}mimsy!aplcomm!trn
Newsgroups: rec.sport.baseball