From: johnson@whitewater.chem.wisc.edu (Arthur Johnson)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Mormon FAQ (part 1 of 2)
Date: 16 Apr 92 22:48:25 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Physical Sciences Lab, UW-Madison

In article <1992Apr15.111534.4293@cbnewsc.cb.att.com>  
wcsa@cbnewsc.cb.att.com (Willard C. Smith) writes:
> 
> 
>                                    GODHEAD
> 
> Mormons believe the Godhead  is  made  up  of  three  separate  and   
distinct
> individuals  who  are  *one*  in  nature,  purpose, action, and plan:  
God the
> Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost.  Furthermore, Mormons believe   
that
> God  the Father and Jesus Christ have perfected and glorified bodies of  
flesh
> and bone, but that the Holy Ghost is a personage of Spirit (D&C 130:22).
> 
> This view contrasts sharply with Western Christianity's view of the   
Trinity,
> which  greatly  emphasizes  the One and deemphasizes the distinctions  
between
> Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, coming close to  making  them  simply   
different
> roles  played by the one God. Despite obvious differences, Mormonism  
seems to
> have much more in common with Eastern  Christianity's  view  of  the   
Trinity
> which  starts  with three entities and sees them as one God by their  
unity of
> nature and action.
>
>
>> As an Eastern Orthodox Christian, it's nice to see that we are getting 
>> some mention on the net. I think that you are correct when you say that
>> the LDS formulation of the Trinity has more in common with Eastern
>> Christianity than Western Christianity.
>
> 
> However Mormonism view of the Godhead  is incompatable with the orthodox  
view
> of the Trinity for several reasons:  most important the orthodox view is  
that
> the term "one" has a sense of "singular," while  Mormons generally view  
"one"
> with a sense of "exclusiveness" or "unity." In other words, there may be  
many
> Gods, but they all work together "As One" with One purpose and share the  
same
> nature,  and  Mormons are to  worship only One God, the Father, with a  
single
> purposeness of  heart.
> 
> To what degree  Mormonism can accept the term  "one" as meaning  
"singular" is
> debatable.  While Mormons insist that  there is one and only one  
Godhead, its
> composition  is  incompatible  with  the  orthodox view  of the trinity.   
The
> traditional  view is that the  Godhead is a higher-level abstraction,  
that is
> in some sense a single entity.  The LDS view is that the Godhead is more  
like
> a council which makes decisions that govern this and many other worlds.   
This
> view  is best  expressed in modern  revelation  received by Joseph Smith  
(for
> example,  Abraham 4:1 to 5:15) where the term  "Gods" is repeatedly used  
in a
> manner that unmistakenly appears to be council-like.
>
>
>> Again, there is a lot of similarity here to Eastern Christianity,
>> particularly with regard to the interpretation of  one  as  unity .
>> As far as the Persons acting in unity, or as a council, I have no 
>> problem (Eastern Christianity is itself councillar in nature.) 
>> I think that the incompatibility between the LDS and Eastern Orthodox
>> views of the Trinity is due to the LDS belief that the Father has a
>> glorified and perfected body of flesh and bone. While Eastern Orthodox
>> would say this about Jesus, the Father is seen to be completely
>> separated in nature from the created universe. In Orthodoxy, this has
>> led to the apophatic (negative) way of thinking about God, i.e. 
>> describing God by stating what He is not, rather than by what He is.
>
> 
> The  second  difference  between Mormons  and orthodox  Christianity is   
that
> Mormons  view  man  to be *potentially* the same nature as each member  
of the
> Godhead rather than as a created  sub-species.  The  ability  to  reach   
that
> potential  is  dependent upon exercising one's faith in Jesus Christ,  
who was
> sent to atone for our sins, to serve as a revelation of God to Man, to  
impart
> Light  (knowledge  and power) to mankind, and to serve as a guide back  
to the
> Father  (See the section GRACE AND THE PROCESS Of SALVATION   
particularly the
> OBJECTION Mormons believe that humans become gods).
>
>
>> Eastern Orthodox would not completely agree with the above, because the 
>> Orthodox doctrine of God makes a distinction between the Trinity's
>> image and the Trinity's likeness. The image is something every person
>> always has. The likeness is something that people are called by the 
>> Trinity to acquire. So, while we are not called by the Trinity to
>> become God in nature, we are called to become  like God , i.e. rich in
>> love, mercy, compassion, patience, etc. It is in this sense that
>> Orthodox theologians (both ancient and modern) speak of man's
>> potential deification. In Orthodoxy, the ability to reach this
>> potential depends on living in communion with the Persons of the
>> Trinity. The point of contention here is over the term  deification .
>> In saying that human persons can actually become God, i.e. acquire the
>> nature of God, LDS push the term further than Eastern Orthodox.
>
> 
> Be careful about condemning Mormonism's admittedly  unorthodox  view  of   
the
> Godhead.   Mormonism's  emphasis  on separate and distinct members is  
not the
> same as Arianism. While Mormons believe that Jesus Christ is subject  to   
the
> Father,  they  do  not deny the divinity of Jesus Christ or try to make  
him a
> "lesser" diety.  If you're going to take Mormons to task for  their   
view  of
> the  Godhead,  then  be  sure of what you're talking about: Often I have  
seen
> someone belittle the Mormons' view only to offer an example that is   
actually
> incompatible with the Western trinitarian model.
>
>
> It's definitely not Arianism. I don't know off the top of my head if it
> conforms to another heterodox trinitarianism. It may very well be
> unique. 
>
> 
> OBJECTION: Since Mormons view each member of  the  Godhead  as  separate   
and
> distinct, then Mormons are polytheists.
> 
> RESPONSE: It all depends on what you mean by polytheism. If you mean   
worship
> more than one God, then Mormons are not polytheists. They do not worship  
Gods
> who have their own agenda and compete against each  other  like  the   
ancient
> Romans, Greeks, or what have you. Each member of the Godhead works in  
concert
> with the others to one purpose. "Yet for us there is but one God, the  
Father,
> from  who  all  things  came and for whom we live; and there is but one  
Lord,
> Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live."   
(1 Cor
> 8:6, NIV).
> 
> However, if by polytheists, you mean one who recognizes the existence of  
many
> individuals  who  have  the  same nature as God, granted Mormons are, by  
that
> definition, polytheists. But polytheism is really in the eye of the  
beholder.
> While  most Christians feel that they are not polytheists, if the  
beholder is
> Jewish, then any Christian holding to the trinitarian  view  of  God  is   
not
> monotheistic either.
>
>
>> Since the LDS assert that the three Persons of the Trinity do share the
>> same nature, I would say that, on that basis, LDS are not polytheists.
>
> 
> OBJECTION: Mormonism's view of the Godhead is incompatible with the   
Book  of
> Mormon  which  declares  Jesus  Christ to be both the Father and the Son  
(see
> Mosiah 3:8; Mosiah 15:2-4; Alma 11:38-39)
> 
> RESPONSE: Jesus is not only the Son of God (hence the  Son),  but  also   
each
> person  who  is  "born  again"  is spiritually begotten of Jesus. Hence  
Jesus
> becomes a Father to each person who is spiritually begotten  of  God   
(Mosiah
> 5:7).  In  this  sense,  Jesus Christ is both Father and Son, but NOT  
God the
> Father and God the Son: which makes no sense in any trinitarian model I   
know
> of.
> 
>
>> Here I want to be sure of exactly what you are saying. For Eastern 
>> Orthodox, a person is  born again  by the action of the Holy Spirit,
>> not by the Son per se. The term  begotten  is used in relation to 
>> the source of Godhood. The Father is the single source of Godhood in
>> the Trinity. The Son is eternally begotten of the Father. The Holy
>> Spirit proceeds from the Father (NOT from the Father and the Son) and
>> is sent into the world by the Son. It seems that you are saying that
>> a  born again  person is a spiritual child of Jesus, i.e that s/he has
>> been spiritually begotten of Jesus. Is this a correct interpretation?  
> -- 
> 
>               Willard C. Smith
>  Oh God, Make my Words Palatable and Sweet, | att!cbnewsc!iwtgo!wcsa
>   Because I Might have to Eat all of Them.  | wcsa@iwtgo.att.com
>
>
>> Yours in Christ,
>
>> Arthur Johnson
>> University of Wisconsin-Madison
>> Department of Chemistry
>> johnson@whitewater.chem.wisc.edu
>
>>  Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me.    the Jesus Prayer