HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.novell
Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 09:32:37 CST
Reply-To:     Novell LAN Interest Group <NOVELL@SUVM.BITNET>
From:         CACHO@ITESO.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Caution when buying Adaptec...
              Nov

> Adaptec.  He informed me that Adaptec has just developed a firmware patch to
> address this problem.  Apparently, LOTS of people have been beating up on
> Adaptec over this.  He promised to FedEx me the PROM's today.  If anyone else
> wants to pursue this, Adaptec's tech support number is (800) 959-7274 or
> (408) 945-8600.  As soon as I get the new chips installed I'll post preliminar
> observations to the list.
>
> Ron Neely
> University of Missouri Columbia
>
  Our controller comes with software to change the firmware, do you need the
proms or this can be downloaded from internet?

--
  Hector Gonzalez, Iteso University.
  Guadalajara, Mexico.
  Cacho@iteso
  Cacho@itesocci.gdl.iteso.mx
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.novell
Date:         Thu, 12 Nov 1992 08:03:52 -400
Reply-To:     Novell LAN Interest Group <NOVELL@SUVM.BITNET>
From:         WERT@IPFWCVAX.BITNET
Subject:      Re: SCSI & IDE together

>I am seeking comments/advice/experience on the possibility of running
>a NW 3.11 server with both ide & SCSI hard drives.
>I am in the process of upgrading our current server to a 486/33.
>
>Basically what I would like to know is
>
>   1. Is it possible?
>   2. If so then what recommendations regarding SCSI drives/controllers
>      also system considerations i.e. special driver files etc
>
>   3. If not possible then recommendations regarding SCSI etc
>
>  Any comments or advice greatly appreciated.
>  (Note I'm on a tight budget - who isn't)
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Paul Young                              e-mail: P.Young@compserv.amc.edu.au
>Unix Systems Administrator
>Australian Maritime College             phone : +61 03 260 799
>Launceston, TAS, AUSTRALIA.             fax   : +61 03 266 493
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------

At my site we use IDE drives to boot all of our servers then use the SCSI
drives for just Novell.  The IDE drives are partitioned for 10MB DOS with
the remainder NW which I use for a scratch volume.  I have had no problems
with the configurations.

Randy W.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Randall Scott Wert                        | Bitnet: wert@IPFWCVAX
------------------------------------------+ Internet:
Instructinional Techonologies Coordinator |   wert@cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu
Indiana Purdue University Fort Wayne      |   wert@smtplink.ipfw.indiana.edu
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Original_To:  BITNET%"novell"
Original_cc:  TPM4017
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.novell
Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1992 13:07:00 CDT
Reply-To:     Novell LAN Interest Group <NOVELL@SUVM.BITNET>
From:         TPM4017@PANAM.BITNET
Subject:      IPX and EMM386

I have encounter a problem with DOS 5.0 and EMM386. A user has
the statement device=C:\windows\emm386 noems in his config.sys. If
I REM out this statement then the system works fine. If the statement
is left in then when IPX is loaded, I get the error message
NI5210 failed to respond to the initialization sequence. I have tried
resetting jumpers to remove incomaptibilty but no luck. Why is
the expaneded memory amnager and IPX incomaptible and what should
be done about it (that is, How can I fixe it)?
Thanks
Tim McCollum (tpm4017@panam1.panam.edu)
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.novell
Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 11:42:38 CST
Reply-To:     Novell LAN Interest Group <NOVELL@SUVM.BITNET>
From:         Frank Boimare <SC0HASS@VM.TCS.TULANE.EDU>
Subject:      Installing a Print Server

Hello all...

I am new to this list and relatively new to NetWare, so please be gentle
with me <smile>.

I am the User Services Coordinator (read as resident piece of departmental
computer humanware) for the Sociology Department at Tulane University in
New Orleans.

As a side job, these folks have me installing a local Novell network (20
user) using NetWare 3.11.  I have the network itself up and running but
am having no luck getting the Print Server working.

I have set up my print server, my print queue, and spooler (not sure if
this step was necessary), but I just can't get my server to output my
WP51 test document to my HP LJ III printer.  For a while, the server told
me that the printer was out of paper, so I went in to PRINTDEF and defined
a form but that didn't help.  Now it appears to be printing, but I get a
message on the server screen 1.1.140 Primary Interrupt Controller Detected
a Lost Hardware Interrupt and no output. (My server is a ZEOS 386DX-33 EISA
box with 8 Meg of RAM and I am using a 3C507TP Ethernet card.  I have
checked the physical connection to the printer and printed a test doc using
the DOS print command, so I know it can talk....)

Any suggestions?  This doesn't seem like this should be this complicated!!!

Possibilities...

The HP LJIII is souped up with the Pacific Data Products PacificPage XL PS
cart and accelerator/memory card.  Any problems here?

The computer uses IRQ7 as the interrupt for LPT1:.  WP51 wants me to print
to the print queue instead of LPT1:.  There does not seem to be any comm
problems or conflicts with the network card and the printer is plugged into
the LPT1: parallel port.  Any problems here?

Or am I just doing something stupid? (Wouldn't be the first time.... wink)

I just got an LJIV in sans PS and font carts.  I may try it with this
machine if I have no luck with the III.  Any thoughts or info here?

Frank Boimare
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X-Envelope-to: novell@suvm.bitnet
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.novell
Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1992 13:37:20 -0500
Reply-To:     Novell LAN Interest Group <NOVELL@SUVM.BITNET>
From:         Gary Flynn <ACS_GARY@JMUVAX.BITNET>
Subject:      Experiences with PPP routers???

Has anyone had any recent experiences with using PPP for
WAN router connections? I would be particularly interested
in multi-vendor environments. Especially Cisco and HP.

Thanks,
Gary Flynn
James Madison University
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.novell
Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 12:54:08 ITA
Reply-To:     Novell LAN Interest Group <NOVELL@SUVM.BITNET>
From:         Ibrahim Khachab <IBRAHIM@IVRUNIV.BITNET>
Subject:      Pagasus Mail. Routing part of messages.

I think that you can toggle viewing all routing nodes of the header using the H
eader option when you are reading your mail (simply strike "H").

=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=
     ____                  IBRAHIM KHACHAB
   /     )                 CENTRO DI INFORMATICA E CALCOLO AUTOMATICO
 /        .   _   _        UNIVERSITA' DEGLI STUDI DI VERONA
(____    (_  (_  (_|_      VIA DLL'ARTIGLIERE 19, 37129 VERONA - ITALY
                           Bitnet   : IBRAHIM@IVRUNIV.BITNET
                           Internet : ibrahim@chiostro.univr.it
=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v2.2 (R4).
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.novell
Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 17:09:31 GMT+1200
Reply-To:     zaphodbernard@zaphod.riv.csu.edu.au
From:         Bernard Storrier <BERNARD@ZAPHOD.RIV.CSU.EDU.AU>
Subject:      Amiga Client software for Netware

We are investigating the possibilities of our Amiga labs printing
through the Netware print queues to allow a greater range of printer
choice for our students.

We have seen a brief (10 lines in a mag. column) about a product
called Amiga Client Software for Novell Netware from Oxxi inc; and
have received a copy of some advertising blurb from an Australian
supplier.

Does anyone have any experience/knowledge or better alternatives.

Bernard Storrier

bstorrier@csu.edu.au


+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Bernard Storrier                        Email : bstorrier@csu.edu.au   |
| User Support Programmer                 Fone  : (069) 222691           |
| Charles Sturt University                Fax   : (069) 222454           |
| Division of Information Technology                                     |
| Wagga Wagga  NSW  2650                                                 |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.novell
Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1992 12:27:00 LCL
Reply-To:     Novell LAN Interest Group <NOVELL@SUVM.BITNET>
From:         Dave Kearns <DKEARNS.TCC@KLAVEN.TCI.COM>
Subject:      FWD: Btrieve and Netware 4.0

DM> We currently have Btrieve 5.15 and received notification of an update
DM> for Btrieve 6.0.  Are we going to need the update in order to run
DM> Btrieve under Netware 4.0?
DM>

***** NOTES from Dave Kearns (DKEARNS @ TCC) at 11/06/92 12:26 PM

I know that you need BTRIEVE 6.0 for NetWare SQL 3.0, and for SFT III
running on NetWare 3.11.
I haven't heard anything about 4.0 yet....

-dave

+--------------------------------------------------------------+
| Dave Kearns                 |                                |
| Manager, Info Services      | dkearns@klaven.tci.com         |
| Thomas-Conrad Corp.         | dkearns@tcc [MHS via NHUB]     |
| 1908-R Kramer Lane          | dkearns@tcc [MHS via CSERVE]   |
| Austin, TX 78758            | 76704,62 [CompuServe]          |
| (512) 836-1935              |                                |
|"There is nothing so inefficient as doing efficiently that    |
| which shouldn't be done at all."                             |
+--------------------------------------------------------------+
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X-Nupop-Charset: English
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.novell
Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 17:34:30 PDT
Reply-To:     smwolver@uci.edu
Comments:     Warning -- original Sender: tag was smwolver@APOLLO.ADCOM.UCI.EDU
From:         Susan Wolverton <smwolver@UCI.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Server recommendations

In Message Tue, 10 Nov 1992 19:51:52 -0600, viking@IASTATE.EDU writes:

>        NOTE: this is supposed to be personal mail.  If it gets
>posted to the list, my apologies.  In this event I suggest a
>firm look at the mail list software be given to mitigate these
>unfortunate incidents.
>
>        I suggest a call to Gateway 2000.  50MHz DX2 486 with
>16M RAM, 1.2G SCSI drive, twin floppies, VGA, etc...  Total
>cost was around $4000; and that included DOS 5.0, Windows 3.1,
>and a few other productivity-type software apps installed.
>
>        It's made a great 3.11 server, and an outstanding
>workstation.  For the price, I'm happy as can be.
>
>< Dan Sorenson, DoD #1066 z1dan@exnet.iastate.edu viking@iastate.edu >

Actually I am glad this was posted; I apologize for responding to 'personal
mail', but I am interested in the Gateway 2000.  Several departments on
campus are looking at this computer with interest.
Any other comments/experiences with the Gateway in the Netware environment?
Would greatly appreciate . . .

Susan Wolverton
Computer Support Coordinator
AdCom Services, UC Irvine
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Organization: Temple University - Journalism
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.novell
Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 08:36:41 EDT
Reply-To:     Novell LAN Interest Group <NOVELL@SUVM.BITNET>
From:         "John L. Center" <JCENTER@TEMPLEVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Netware 386 and an EISA Computer
              3 Nov 1992 16:11:08 EDT from <SCOTT@ENGE1.CC.WM.EDU>

I had a similar problem with a gateway pc.  I had to reformat the hard
disk (a maxstor 512m w/ a ultrastor 24f controller) using the ultrastor's
cformat option.  Hope this helps.

John Center
jcenter@vm.temple.edu / Temple University / Journalism Department
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Organization: Oregon State University
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.novell
Date:         Sun, 8 Nov 1992 12:38:07 -0800
Reply-To:     Novell LAN Interest Group <NOVELL@SUVM.BITNET>
From:         John Villalovos <villalj@INSTRUCTION.CS.ORST.EDU>
Subject: Re: Volume not mounted because of mirrored copies mismatches

In article <NOVELL%92110811253395@SUVM.SYR.EDU> you write:
>This Sunday afternoon, I try to boot our NW3.11 fileserver getting
>Volume VOL1 not mounted.
>The system reported that Mirrored copies don't match, VOL1 not mounted.
>After applying VREPAIR several times( 4 or 5 times), it still doesn't
>work.  What happened? Any advices/ideas will be much appreciated.
>

First things first.  You might want to ftp to netlab2.usu.edu and go into
novlib/01 and download 311pt9.zip  this file has an updated vrepair for 3.11.

The mirrored copies are mirrored copies of the directories and fat.  If the
new vrepair doesn't work then you will probably have to delete your VOL1 and
restore from backup unless you want to consider investing in NETUTILS 3 from
Ontrack.

If you have any more questions let me know,
--
John Villalovos
Certified Netware Engineer
villalj@xanth.cs.orst.edu
(503) 753-7883
From: MIGUEL@ACADVM1.UOTTAWA.CA (Nabil J. Miguel)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.novell
Subject: HPIIIsi Ethernet & Mac NLM 3.01
Date: 5 Nov 92 04:28:03 GMT
Reply-To: Novell LAN Interest Group <NOVELL@SUVM.BITNET>
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Delivery-Notice:  SMTP MAIL FROM does not correspond to sender.

We have Netware 3.11 with Mac NLM 3.01.  The printer is an HP LaserJet IIIsi
with the Ethernet option (No Macintosh Option).  I installed the Mac NLMs.
So far we can log to the File server via a Macintosh.  I wasn't able to get
the Mac print queues to show in the CHOOSER.  I also noticed that according
to the installation manual I must see a ZONE list under the CHOOSER.  I can't
see a ZONE list. (I created only one ZONE, is that why?)

I need some help on how to connect a printer on Ethernet to a Mac Print Queue.
Could someone e-mail me a copy of ATPS.CFG and ATZONES.CFG file??

Thank You!
------------------------------+---------------------------------------
Nabil J. Miguel               |    Bitnet:  Miguel@UOttawa
                              |  InterNet:  Miguel@acadvm1.uottawa.ca
University Of Ottawa          |
35 University                 | Telephone:  (613) 564-5094
Ottawa, Ontario, K1N 6N5      |       FAX:  (613) 564-4965
------------------------------+---------------------------------------
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.novell
Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 06:50:02 EST
Reply-To:     Novell LAN Interest Group <NOVELL@SUVM.BITNET>
From:         Glen Jula <julag%twlan-smtp@TACOM-EMH1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject:      Filer problem (reply)

We've got around 20 servers on our system and only a few of them
do we have the following problem.  When invoking FILER it reports

The system message library file "SYS$MSG.DAT" could not be
opened.
Program Initialization Failure - Execution Terminated.

However, if we go to the drive on which FILER is located it works
okay, presumably because SYS$MSG.DAT is there too.  The drive on
which FILER is located is in the shell search path and the SMODE
is set to 0.  Any ideas why it has this problem?

Do you have your PATHS set to include the directory name on which
'FILER' resides??????
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Via:          UK.AC.MCC.NESSIE; 10 NOV 92 10:33:26 GMT
Organization: UMIST, Manchester, England
X-mailer:     Pegasus Mail v2.3 (R2).
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.novell
Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 10:29:13 GMT
Reply-To:     Novell LAN Interest Group <NOVELL@SUVM.BITNET>
From:         NOVNEWS@FS1.LI.UMIST.AC.UK
Subject:      Re: Filer problem

> Date:          Mon, 9 Nov 1992 12:18:00 CST
> From:          Rac1154 <rac1154.dsc1@PCMAIL.DCCCD.EDU>
> Subject:       Filer problem
>
> We've got around 20 servers on our system and only a few of them
> do we have the following problem.  When invoking FILER it reports
>
> The system message library file "SYS$MSG.DAT" could not be
> opened.
> Program Initialization Failure - Execution Terminated.
>
> However, if we go to the drive on which FILER is located it works
> okay, presumably because SYS$MSG.DAT is there too.  The drive on
> which FILER is located is in the shell search path and the SMODE
> is set to 0.  Any ideas why it has this problem?

Mine does the same. What is even more mystifying is that the other
menu utils work ok e.g. syscon and as far as I am aware they need
access to the same file. If it were not for this I would probably
start investigating whether it is anything to do with remote booting
but there seems to be a prima facie case against filer!

Cheers

Brian Wood
UMIST
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.novell
Date:         Fri, 13 Nov 1992 09:26:00 EST
Reply-To:     Novell LAN Interest Group <NOVELL@SUVM.BITNET>
From:         cba0@OPSIRM1.EM.CDC.GOV
Subject:      TCP/IP Software by Foxfire of U.K.

    As we've gotten our toe into the TCP/IP world here at Centers for Disease
Control, and loved every minute of it, we're ready to plunge in.
    From information gleaned from INTEROP we've learned about a product
called , " NOVIX ", which is supposed to integrate TCP/IP with novell through
API calls without requiring TCP/IP in each workstation and without multiple
protocol stacks. The implications are mind boggling after the thought of what
training and resources we were considering ( and still may ) spending to
impliment access to INTERNET for people across a WAN with 153 Novell 3.11
servers.


    THE QUESTION -


    Anyone out there tried this product yet? I'm looking for all the
good/bad/uglies. Please respond to me directly, I'll post responses later.

Thanks,

CBA0@opsirm1.em.cdc.gov
(404) 639-3426

P.S. How do I make one of those fancy name plates I see attached to everyones
     messages?
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.novell
Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 11:27:54 EST
Reply-To:     Novell LAN Interest Group <NOVELL@SUVM.BITNET>
From:         Warren Mayer <mayer@ANDROMEDA.RUTGERS.EDU>
Subject:      Re: dos/netware upgrade

In bit.listserv.novell you write:


>        As recently appointed network manager at a company running
>Netware 2.0a on PC-DOS 3.2, it was obviously my job to upgrade to something
>from this decade.  Since I was taken out of my VAX network environment, this
>task has been hard. My only question is how do I upgrade both my DOS &
>Netware at the same time?

>                             Kevin Gemmell

I would suggest that you give your Novell representative (either through your
nearest Novell office or dealer) and ask about upgrading your Netware 2.0a to
Netware 4.0 (when it ships) and to DR-DOS 6.0.   DR-DOS 6.0 is a superior DOS
product in many ways and your won't go wrong using it. Everything that runs
under your present PC-DOS 3.2 will run under DR-DOS 6.0.   Since Novell now
owns Digital Research, updating both your earlier version of Netware and your
DOS will be a snap-- both will come from the same source.


Hope this helps you decide.

Warren Mayer
Programmer/Analyst
Microcomputer Software and Systems Support
Netware LAN Support
Rutgers University
Newark, NJ 07604
mayer@andromeda.rutgers.edu
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Return-Path: <LISTSERV.NPIH@MAIL.NPI.UCLA.EDU>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.novell
Date:         Thu, 12 Nov 1992 17:44:00 LCL
Reply-To:     Novell LAN Interest Group <NOVELL@SUVM.BITNET>
From:         LISTSERV <LISTSERV.NPIH@MAIL.NPI.UCLA.EDU>
Subject:      LWP for Windows

To: NOVELL

How does one open a session using a PORT while using the HOST PRESENTER?
If you use the DOS program TNVT220 you can simply issue an
OPEN 128.6.60.6 9999 and it will open port 9999 but if you do that in the
windows HOST PRESENTER it will ignore the 9999 at the end!
Is it possible?

Ryan Jones
Programmer/Analyst
UCLA Neuropsychiatric Institute & Hospital
RYAN.NPIH@MAIL.NPI.UCLA.EDU
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.novell
Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 08:36:29 EST
Reply-To:     Novell LAN Interest Group <NOVELL@SUVM.BITNET>
From:         NCUT000 <NCUT@SLUMUS.BITNET>
Subject:      Rebuilding Mac desktop files

> I've been getting various error messages lately indicating that the Mac
>  deskto[pfiles on one of my volumes are invalid or damaged. I would like to
>  rebuild them
> but find that I cannot do this from any of my Macs as described in the manual
> (ver. 3.011). They are all running System 7 and I have a hazy recollection tha
> may be part of the problem. Can anyone advise on what to do? The messages have
> done no obvious harm so far: the volume looks okay from a Mac client but I fea
> a crash coming on...
>
> Tony Sheehan
> grg1678@v2.qub.ac.uk
>
> Queen's University, Belfast
> Northern Ireland

I'm not sure if this is publicly available or not, but at least once I
think I remember seeing a utility called DeskTop Rebuilder.  I think
(of course, I think many things...) that it was put out by Dayna?  But
that's really a shot in the dark.  If any of the Dayna folks are around
maybe they could comment on the accuracy of (what's left of) my memory.


Nick Cutry                         voice: (315)379-5971
Network Manager                    Bitnet: NCUT@SLUMUS or CUTRY@STLAWU
Computer Services                  Compu$erve: 76424,144 or 73257,2537
St. Lawrence University
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X-Envelope-to: novell@suvm.syr.edu
Priority: normal
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Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 12:42:11 MET
Reply-To:     C.A.Teuben@RC.RUG.NL
From:         Chris Teuben <CAT@RC.RUG.NL>
Subject:      CD-ROM , MAC -> PC

The new model Macintosh IIvx supports an internal CD-ROM drive.
Is it possible to make this CD-ROM available to PC (MS-DOS) network users?

/--------------------------------------------------------------\
| Chris Teuben                            C.A.Teuben@RC.RuG.NL |
| Computing Centre - University of Groningen - The Netherlands |
\--------------------------------------------------------------/
From: rick@SJSUMCS.SJSU.EDU (Richard Warner)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.novell
Subject: Re: Windows for Workplace
Date: 12 Nov 92 16:29:34 GMT
Reply-To: Novell LAN Interest Group <NOVELL@SUVM.BITNET>
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
              Nov 11, 92 7:46 pm

> over other transport providers if their NetBios are in spec. NetBios is that
> lovely software spec derived from the very first commercial lan adapter:
> the broadband PCnet item which had that code as its Bios. NetBios can deliver

Joe - did you really mean to say that?  I had commercially available
LAN adapters long before the broadband PC net card arrived.  The old
Corvus OmniNet (1 Mbps on twisted pair), a 10Net card (also 1 Mbps on
twisted pair), and a hole host of others were around before the PC net
adapter.

+-----------------------+-------------------------------------+
|   Richard M. Warner   |   Internet:  rick@sjsumcs.sjsu.edu  |
|                       | CompuServe:  71121,2257             |
+-----------------------+-------------------------------------+
|  ** DISCLAIMER:  All opinions are strictly my own.  I work  |
|                  hard enough at forming them!               |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+
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