From: MCKAY_MICHAEL@tandem.COM
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: "Killed" by Marshalls
    I asked about marshalling styles, and got a nice reply from Mike Squires
Date: 13 Apr 92 20:01:00 GMT
Organization: The Internet

(who did not give his SCA name).  I read through it and agreed with most of what
he said, until I came to this paragraph, which was written in response to my
tail of my baron being "killed" by marshall's at Pennsic.

Mike Squires (mikes@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu):
> If this happened in any battle other than the Woods Battle, the marshall in
> question was violating the War Rules which require the concurrence of two
> marshalls to declare anyone dead.  In the Woods Battle there are usually no
> more than one marshall in sight, so the rule has to be relaxed.  This rule was
> requested by the East, and has been part of the rules for years.

    This really bothered me, but it took me a while to figure out why.  If a
fighter is not acknowledging blows in such a way that a marshall is obliged to
"kill" them, that should not be the end of it!  There are a number of methods
and procedures for dealing with people who have problems while fighting, but
just calling them "dead" and going off to do something else is not in the
ballpark!  If the fighter is really out of control (why else would a marshall
"Kill" them?), how do you know what else they are going to do.  They may be
worse in the next battle, or may not even stay "dead" for this one.
    On the spot counseling should be the first action taken.  If the marshall is
too busy, grab a responsible fighter (such as a knight) and tell them what you
observed.  Discuss what was observed with the fighter, and try to prevent it
from happening again (or acknowldge that the marshall made a mistake, or that
nobody is quite sure what happened).  Most knights I know, would be willing to
miss some of the fighting (indeed consider it their duty) to help out in this
type of sitituation.  If there is still a problem after counseling, than you can
escalate the measures as needed.
    I understand that Pennsic is large, and has people from many different
locations, but this policy still seems very foriegn to me (as I said before, it
sounds like a different culture).  It sounds to me that being "killed" by a
marshall is supposed to be some kind of warning/punishment.  I don't think it
would work well here in the West, and suspect that it does not function well in
Pennsic (non-western kingdoms?) either.
    The biggest objection I have to marshall killing is that it never seems
appropriate.  It should only be used as a minor warning, and in a war it is too
hard to keep track of minor problems.  It is not reasonable for a war marshall
to observe how all fighters on the field are taking blows, and unless we redo
the way we fight (ie. the honor system), it is not something a marshall should
have to do (if we change or modify our usage of the honor system, we will have
much work on the marshallate's new responsibilities).  If a marshall sees a
problem (by this I don't mean a fighter who did not take 1 blow, unless there
are special circumstances), than the marshall almost has to take more corrective
action than just "killing" the fighter.  We owe it to the fighter to explain to
them how and why we are making our judgments, instead of just giving them an
arbritary punishment.  We also have an obligation to the fighter, to check with
fighters involved, and make sure that the marshall's observations were accurate.
    Another major problem is that this helps teach people that dying is bad.  I
don't think we are doing people a favor by this, let alone the marshallate.  One
of my biggest blocks in fighting wars, was helped by the realization that I
could die and still have fun.  I don't think the marshallate should be trying to
change this.

    I'm still like more details on "Active Marshalling".  Is it widespread?  Is
it only used in wars (or only for Pennsic)?  Do they also dictate arm and leg
shots, or is it only dead/not-dead?  I'd like to hear from other areas (reply
off-line to me if you would like, and I will sumarzie the replies).

Sean MacKay  (aka. MCKAY_MICHAEL@tandem.com)