From: bs@gauss.mitre.org (Robert D. Silverman)
Subject: Re: Misalert
Organization: Research Computer Facility, MITRE Corporation, Bedford, MA
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1992 18:43:36 GMT

In article <22620@alice.att.com> jj@alice.UUCP (jj is still a curmudgeon.  Tough luck, guys.) writes:
:In article <1992Apr16.193059.1147@linus.mitre.org> bs@gauss.mitre.org (Robert D. Silverman) writes:
:>If you want to play with the "big boys" and you are inexperienced
:>you have to expect to take your lumps and not let the fact that you
:>might screw up drive you away.
:Lumps?  Methinks you regard banning for stupidity or bad play
			     ^^^^^^^

Where did I ever once use this word?? Don't put words in my mouth.

:You seem unwilling to consider the possible long-term effects of your
:filing a slip, and you further seem perfectly willing to do
:it at the drop of a hat.
 
And what is wrong with that if a transgression has occurred???

:
:>** YOU **  are confused.
:Please, sir, don't presume what I know and/or don't.
:
:>Do you have any idea of what a recorder slip is??  
:
:>I thought not.
:Figures.  You ask a stupid question and then answer it in a way
:that's good for you, never mind the truth that you haven't
:bothered to determine.
:
But you DON'T know the purpose of a recorder slip. Your claims below
show that.
 
:>It is NOT, in any way, an accusation of cheating or unethical conduct.
:>It is simply a record of a HIGHLY unusual event.
:Yeah, sure.  You're welcome to call it what you like, but what
 
And you are free to misinterpret it anyway you like.

:it does imply is that something irregular happened.  That's an
 
So? You still seem confused about the use of recorder slips.

:accusation in my book.  It's also taken that way, and *very*
 
Oh, me. Oh, my. I've been **accused**. Whatever am I going to do??

:seriously, buy most of the people I know.  It's not an action
 
So? Most people do not practice active ethics either. The concept
seems to be beyond them. If they understood ehics better, they would NOT
take a recorder slip as an accusation of bad ethics.

Furthermore, when a slip is filed, the opponents generally are not TOLD,
so they don't even get an opportunity to be offended. You can't get
offended by what you don't know about.

:>Are people's egos so fragile that they quit when they've
:>been told what they did was wrong??

:No, they quit when they're thrown out, or feel like they're being
:threatened with same.  Or, they quit when they get yelled at from
:something they have already figured out was pathetically inept.
 
Yup! When the going gets tough, everybody quits.
 
And the fact that you equate "being threatened with being thrown out"
with the filing of a recorder slip shows exactly that you don't understand
them.


:Y'know, "novice" can mean inexperienced as well as "pathetically
:stupid", and a lot of entirely smart and competant people will
:simply quit as in "this is no fun" when folks like you try to
 
If you want to play "fun" bridge, then stick to novice or goodtimer
events. Flight A is cut-throat bridge, and SHOULD be played that way.

Most good players play in Flight A and higher events for the competition
and intellectual challenge, not because it is "fun".

You want "fun", go to an amusement park. Stay out of Flight A events.

:It's been my experience (and not with me as the victim) that
:bridge clubs in this area seem to have a need to rub people's

We are not talking about bridge clubs!!!  We are talking about
Flight A Regional or National Events. Standards of behavior are
vastly different.

:mistakes in, over and over again.  You'd extend that to making
:it a permanant blot on their record, wouldn't you?  Against this,
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Once again, you treat a recorder slip as a "blot", like a criminal
record. It is nothing of the kind. Furthermore, they are not permanent.
The fact that you think they are permanent is further evidence that you
don't know what they are.


 
:people seem to wonder why the game is dying out.  Golly, gee.
 
The game is dying out because the "me generation" wants instant gratification.
They do not have the perserverence and toughness needed to acquire experience
and expertise over a long period of time. Becoming a bridge expert takes years
of dedication. Most people just don't have it.

I think the ACBL would be better served if it split into two leagues; a
"goodtimers" and a "serious" league. Then those who want to play serious
bridge can do so, and those who want to play for fun can do so.

But when those who want to play for fun play in the serious league, they
better expect to be treated like everyone else.

And I have seen world-class players criticize their partners for bonehead
plays. [but away from the table]. Their egos are not so fragile that they
run away and hide because of it.

:>Or told that while they may not
:>have intended anything wrong what they did was highly peculiar??
 
:mean the kind of thing where the opponents were misled somehow,
:albiet accidentally.  It's also important not to classify as
 
I contend that in Flight A games it should not matter that they were
misled *accidently*. If, in basketball a player commits a foul
accidently, it is STILL a foul.

Intent should not matter. It is only what you DO that counts.

:As novices and/or above, we've all run into the "double vs.
:I double" crowd" or the crowd that uses alerts as information
:transferring bids, as well  When you meet that sort, file away with a
:vengence.  Breaking rules on purpose isn't what we're discussing here, it's
 
But trying to take a double shot is every bit as wrong as one of the
above violations.

I also think that people are misreading my intentions. I contended originally
that *if* I were on the committee and thought there was intent to take a
double shot, *then* I would file a slip.  I also said in my original post
that there was information missing about the exact sequence of events.
It was never made clear just when the misalert came to light, or what the
real agreement was.

However, that is irrelevent to the current discussion. What we are discussing
is your contention that recorder slips drive novices away and my contention
that in Flight A events they must be treated like everyone else in the field.
They get no breaks because they are novices. That is what Flight C and Flight B
is for.

stuff deleted...

:accusation, that goes on your record for a long time is the point,
					    ^^^^^^^^^^

Above you said it was "permanent". Now you say "long time". Want to
try again??  You can't even be consistent with your facts.

:isn't it?  Gosh, in your rush to be an arrogant, rude, person
:who clearly wants the game to die, you can't even keep the subject
 
What I want is a strong disciplined Flight A event. If that means 
far fewer players interested, so be it. If it means fewer tournaments,
so be it. If you translate this as my wanting the game to die, so be it.

:>So what?? It's nothing more than a game being refereed. Like a foul
:>in basketball. When rookies commit fouls, the opposing team is STILL
:>awarded free throws. They are not given a break because they are rookies.
 
:What a dumb idea.  What we're talking about here is being thrown out of
							   ^^^^^^^^^^

Wonderful. First he talks about players quitting because of a recorder
slip, now he turns that into being "thrown out".

:the game permanently for making a foul while tripping over one's feet.
 
Not at all. We are talking about players quitting because their ego was
hurt when the ref called foul. A foul committed against another because
you were clumsy and inept is STILL a foul. 

I can see it now:
 "Gee ref, I didn't mean anything, I just tripped over my feet". 
 "Sorry, but you still screwed up and interferred with the other team."
 "I'm being picked on and criticized unfairly! I quit!"


However, you seem to forget that the foul still interferes with game,
even when done out of ineptness. And if the rookie wants to quit because
his feelings were hurt, my feeling is that the game would be better off
without such fragile people anyway.

Strong events are not for the meek or timid.

:
:Now if you can show that the basketball player commonly trips over his own
:feet to save a game ...... [stuff deleted]

Aha! But this is exactly what recorder slips are FOR. To record strange
actions so the league CAN find out if it is a common occurrence.
It is analogous to keeping statistics and box-scores in sports. 
In sports, we know when rookies make repeated transgressions. But in
bridge, the only way to keep track of such is through the recorder system.

 
:For heaven's sake, with attitudes like this, it's not surprising that
:the game is dying out.
 
It might be dying out in clubs. However, I see no drop in attendence
in Flight A events. However, the standards of behavior we are talking
about do not APPLY to clubs.

--
Bob Silverman
These are my opinions and not MITRE's.
Mitre Corporation, Bedford, MA 01730
"You can lead a horse's ass to knowledge, but you can't make him think"