HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: huggins@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Jim Huggins)
Subject: Re: Getting information
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor, MI
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 04:40:33 GMT

In article <1992Nov18.024341.354@blaze.cs.jhu.edu> arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:
|In article <1992Nov18.004946.17586@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
|>$ ls /usr/spool/news/news/groups/* | wc -l
|>1000
|>$ egrep <disrespect> /usr/spool/news/news/groups/* | wc -l
|>800
|
|disrespect: No such file or directory

Wonderful.  Now we're flaming people in such a way that only the UNIX-literate
will understand.  I feel left out.

Anybody want to bring up "elitism" again?

:-)

-- 
Jim Huggins, Univ. of Michigan                          huggins@eecs.umich.edu
"You cannot pray to a personal computer no matter how user-friendly it is."
                                                          -- W. Bingham Hunter
From: hades@coos.dartmouth.edu (Hades)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: My experience
Date: 16 Nov 92 20:10:19 GMT
Reply-To: hades@Dartmouth.Edu
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
Disclaimer: Personally, I really don't care who you think I speak for.
Moderator: Rec.Arts.Comics.Info

cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca writes:

>I was not objecting to complaints made about my original proposal.  The fact
>is that, due to the refinements, the proposal is no longer "bad" (ok, that
>is certainly subject to debate :) let me instead say it is now as good as
>it would be if I had waited six months).

    I just don't see how you can claim this. 6 months is a hell of a
long time, and there is no way that you could know, now, what changes
you might have made to this proposal in 6 months. 

--
-Brian V. Hughes
	"You're built too low! The fast ones go right over your head."
					   --Foghorn Leghorn
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: emcguire@intellection.com (Ed McGuire)
Subject: Re: RFD: misc.home.automation
Organization: Intellection, Inc.
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 22:10:01 GMT

In article <1992Nov18.010752.18481@networx.com> mikel@networx.com
(Mike Lempriere) writes:

   I'm interested in this topic, but would never have known where to
   look!  I had no idea anyone else out there cared about it!  This is
   one vote for such a newsgroup!

In article <1992Nov18.213618.1074@metrosoft.com> gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen) writes:

   Ditto.

Thank you, Gordon.  Perhaps if you had read the guidelines you would
have realized that votes are not taken until the Call For Votes is
issued, and then they belong in mail to the vote taker, not in
news.groups.

*evil grin*
-- 
Ed McGuire                   1603 LBJ Freeway, Suite 780
Systems Administrator/       Dallas, Texas 75234
 Member of Technical Staff   214/620-2100, FAX 214/484-8110
Intellection, Inc.           <ed@intellection.com>
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.games.frp.advocacy,rec.games.frp.misc
From: ecaxron@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Ron Graham)
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.soft-sys.matlab
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center
Date: 16 Nov 1992 10:26 EST  

In article <zeq1H=&qva@atlantis.psu.edu>, mek@guinan.psu.edu 
     (Mark E. Kotanchek) writes...

>Given the semi-useless MathWorks-moderated users group, a MatLab-specific  
>newsgroup would be tremendous. Since the only competing product (to my  
>knowledge) is MATRIXx/Xmath it may be viable to expand the scope of the  
>group to include MATRIXx as well as MATLAB.

There are several other competing products out there, depending on what
you want to do.  Around here, Matlab is used primarily for control systems
analysis and design (and I think that's a common usage).  Other programs
that deliver various capabilities in that area include EASY5 and CTRL-C,
and even the solid modeler I-DEAS has an attached package that does some
signal processing and system identification.  

I think you could make a case for using this proposed new group for 
"comparison-shopping" of capability between Matlab and some of these others.

>It is frustrating to have to reinvent the wheel from scratch when dealing  
>with MATLAB rather than build on the experiences of others--so put me down  
>for a strong YES vote on the concept.

In our shop, we have a small local mailing list for analysis and simulation
information.  It's not everybody who's involved in that kind of work here,
but it is representative.  I currently route them copies of Matlab Digest
when it comes in, but I think they would find the proposed newsgroup to be
easier to deal with.

RG
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: rana@rintintin.Colorado.EDU (Nabeel Ahmad Rana)
Subject: Re: Hijacking of democracy Re: S.R.I.A.
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 03:45:32 GMT

randall-joshua@yale.edu (Joshua Randall) writes:

>In article <1992Nov14.183304.1@uwovax.uwo.ca> 3040_3744@uwovax.uwo.ca writes:
>>Hijacking of democratic process by Mr. Mansoor Jaffrey
>              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Hate to tell you this, but there *is* no democratic process!  I quote
>from "What is the Usenet":  "The UseNet is not a democracy."
			      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

And, I hate to tell you this that from the same article:
"What is the Usenet":

".... However, there is exactly one feature of Usenet that has
a form of democracy: newsgroup creation."

Please read the article "What is the Usenet" completely and then
argue!


Sincerely,
-- 
Nabeel A. Rana
rana@rintintin.colorado.edu
LOVE FOR ALL : HATRED FOR NONE.
________________________________________________________________
From: stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 20 Nov 92 05:55:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: talon.1ehujkINNg03
Organization: Oregon State University, College of Oceanography
NNTP-Posting-Host: skyking.oce.orst.edu

In article <1992Nov15.123218.11575@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>jhenders@jonh.wimsey.bc.ca (John Henders) writes:
>>	What? Did someone split new.announce.newusers while I wasn't looking?
>
>Ah-HA! So you ADMIT that a split can happen while you weren't looking. :-)
>
>If even the "advanced" net readers can't find it...

Not looking != can't find.

I am not looking for my slide rule right now. That does not mean that I
can't find it. I may either decide to look tomorrow, or find it while I
am looking for something else today.
Xref: sparky news.groups:21882 rec.games.frp.misc:8385
From: jaapjl@tab00.larc.nasa.gov (J Lee Jaap)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 20 Nov 1992 22:22:06 GMT
Organization: AS&M Inc
	<1992Nov18.184731.8504@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>
	<1992Nov19.030502.18694@bcrka451.bnr.ca>
	<1992Nov19.082844.13812@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>
Reply-To: J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@larc.nasa.gov>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cmb00.larc.nasa.gov
In-reply-to: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov's message of Thu, 19 Nov 1992 08:28:44 GMT

In article <1992Nov19.082844.13812@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:

   I never miss an opportunity for the latter. No issue is so serious that 
   it can't be funny. As to the former, this *is* an injustice issue...but
   looking at the backlash of news.admin.cadre.consensus I guess no matter
   what happens the r.m.s people have lost anyway.

The evidence, such as there is, is ambiguous as to whether the r.m.s
folks have lost.  271 people voted, more than many recent votes.  And
how do you know how many were or weren't r.m.s readers.  The nearest
I can tell is that r.m.m.s is carrying on just fine -- a couple bumps
at the beginning, maybe.

And I think you're confusing "net.admin.cadre.consensus" on two
different (albeit related) issues.  As I read it, consensus is
that the r.m.m.* vote was procedurally correct, and there's no
sufficient reason to disallow it.  And consensus is that the
Guidelines (and other info) aren't perfect and are subject to
improvement to attempt to reduce (not eliminate) the ignorance
of the net irt votes.

General consensus is the way the net is run, to reduce fracturing
problems.  You've lost on the first count above.  If you are
right (however measured), the net has suffered a minor, temporary
setback.  However, the net is a living, growing, learning critter
(to wax poetic) and revising Guidelines, etc., are a part of this.

Again, you have the right to run your site any way you see fit.
However, your decision to not accept r.m.m.s has more measurable
harm to the net and the group than the renaming itself has.  Note
the term _measurable_ above.  (IMO, of course.)  Hopefully, your
decision won't harm too many people.
--
J Lee Jaap <J.L.Jaap@LaRC.NASA.Gov> +1 804/864-2148
    employed by, not speaking for, AS&M Inc, at
         NASA LaRC, Hampton VA 23681-0001
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: ckd@eff.org (Christopher Davis)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.fantasy
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation Tech Central
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 03:07:32 GMT

Ken> == Ken Arromdee <arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu> 

[r.a.fantasy proposal deleted]
 Ken> Nooooooooooo!!!!!!

 Ken> The problem with this group is that it is not possible to define
 Ken> fantasy well enough to separate it from science fiction, in such a
 Ken> way as to do what you want.

I might also point out that the 'sf' in 'rec.arts.sf.*' stands, very
deliberately, for *speculative* fiction, not *science* fiction.

(And, yes, I'm actually *agreeing* with Ken Arromdee this time.
Imminent death of the Net predicted... :)
--
Christopher K. Davis      | ``Usenet seems to run much like the Kif (or,
<ckd@eff.org>   EFF #14   |   for the TV generation, Klingon) high command.
System Administrator, EFF |   Whoever takes action and can be heard wins.''
+1 617 864 0665  [CKD1]   |   --Peter da Silva <peter@ferranti.com>
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: danny@cs.su.oz.au (Danny)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.netrek reorganization
Organization: Basser Dept of Computer Science, University of Sydney, Australia
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 03:44:48 GMT

In article <BxIsJr.6Iv.2@cs.cmu.edu> jch+@cs.cmu.edu (Jonathan Hardwick) writes:
> * No-one seems to want a split of the newsgroup except Alan and one
>   overseas player who objected to the intra-USA INL flame wars (for
>   whom we could all start being nice and using Distribution: lines)

Hey!  Some of us OS players *are* interested in reports of INL matches.  We
don't get much in the way of 8 vs 8 games internally, so the only way to
learn strategic theory is by reading what other people have to say.

So don't you all start setting Distribution fields so I miss out on everything!

ICMP Redirect - SC bomber with lag
Death - scumming for Admiral with ratings 12+
danny - best base in the Southern Hemisphere



Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: Dave Hayes may be right (was Re: To keep the r.m.s rename...)
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 04:13:19 GMT

cuz@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu (Cousin It) writes:

>	Because I feel we are making progress on fixing "the problem",
>and that Dave is posting and making us really angry at him for his own
>amusement, This will be the last time I followup one of his articles.

Then why'd you even follow UP to this one? 

By the way, no one can make you angry without your consent. 

>However, may I suggest two new groups for Dave? alt.fan.dave-hayes

I'd be honored. 

>|But "rarely" is not "never"...and "anytime" is a bad idea. 
>	True enough Dave. However, if it does happen, whose to blame?
>I would say the people who didn't read the appropriate material which
>was given to them.

Are you going to blame a 5 year old kid for crossing the street and
getting hit when the crossing was done on a red light?

>|But EVERYONE didn't. Just because ANYONE could have doesn't mean ANYONE
>|did...especially those in the news group. 
>	Never said otherwise Dave. However, the opportunity was there.

That doesn't justify things one bit. 

>|How can you say that? Only a certain amount of the population was informed!
>	Vwey simply. Anyone who wanted to be informed could have been
>by reading the appropriate newsgroup. Whether or not they did does not
>matter to me, because they could have been. Simple enough.

So whether or not that car kid to blame doesn't matter to you because
he/she COULD have been aware of the red light and what it meant?
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

The most important service rendered by the press is that of educating people to
approach printed matter with distrust. 
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: jlevine@apollo.hp.com (Jennifer E. Levine)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.fantasy
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 13:43:39 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Chelmsford, MA
Keywords: fantasy RFD arts


|> In article <642@ulogic.UUCP> hartman@ulogic.UUCP (Richard M. Hartman) writes:
|> >[...]
|> >rec.arts.f&sf might be nice (except for the invalid character :)
|> >
|> >	...f-sf...?  
|> 

This seems acceptable and much clearer. 

|> >f/sf and f&sf are frequently used in bookstores for the "fantasy and 
|> >science fiction" amalgam.  I think if some sort of legible variant
|> >of that could be used more people would find it than some obscure
|> >abbreviation of "speculative fiction" which is way too highbrow for
|> >some of us pulp fans :)
|> 

--Jennifer
jlevine@apollo.hp.com
From: geoffb@coos.dartmouth.edu (Geoff Bronner)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.arts.fantasy
Keywords: fantasy RFD arts
Date: 17 Nov 92 19:35:56 GMT
Reply-To: geoffb@Dartmouth.EDU
Organization: Amos Tuck School
Disclaimer: I don't represent Dartmouth and Dartmouth doesn't represent me.

In <1992Nov17.173632.13193@netcom.com> dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig) writes:

>One of the weaknesses of the current newsgroup creation mechanism is
>that it takes very few people to make everyone go through the same
>debates year after year after year.  We should at least ask that an
>RFD be the result of enough prior discussion that we're at least
>debating a well-thought-out proposal.


I agree.

In this case the proposal is badly conceived and poorly written. Some
prior discussion would have help to avoid that.

-Geoff
--
geoffb@Dartmouth.EDU - Computing Support Consultant, Tuck School of Business
_____________________________________________________________________________
Cerebus for Dictator in 1992!! | "Whether you are quiet and alive or quiet
    "Vote for me or else."     |  and dead makes no difference to Cerebus."
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Short comments, plus long rec.music.makers.* pre-vote discussion
Keywords: music, makers, synth, flame war, vote, rfd, cfv
Date: 20 Nov 92 21:58:51 GMT
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

In article <1992Nov20.014227.9059@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>He didn't post that often enough. 

You're right, you didn't disappoint me: that certainly was lame.

>I still don't think they had a full and fair chance to participate. Not
>when 14 users say "I didn't know about it". The goal here is ZERO.

Out of how many readers? I think it's safe to say that the arbitron readership
report for the group had over 14,000 readers in it before you started raising
hell. One tenth of one percent is hardly a significant number.

>>the users you claim to protect, you'd do well to go along with the existing
>>result.  
>You cannot tell me how to run my news site.

Nor was I trying to; I was merely saying that it would be a Good Thing if you
went along with the vote - something I've said all along.
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by stupidity.
           "Cat: Four legs and an attitude." -- Jim Reese
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: hartman@ulogic.UUCP (Richard M. Hartman)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: About the elitism in news.groups
Date: 17 Nov 92 19:25:15 GMT
Organization: negligable

In article <1e0dt4INNq03@cat.cis.Brown.EDU> plutchak@pilsner.geo.brown.edu (Joel Plutchak) writes:
:   How about this as a reasonable way to give people an opportunity
:become involved in the process:  2-3 times over the course of 3-4 weeks,
:post messages to relevant newsgroups stating that a discussion is
:underway to determine whether or not a change is necessary, and that
:all members of USENET, and especially members of the groups in question,
:are invited to participate.  Then, when the matter has been discussed,

Anyone, including Dave, was free to do this at any time during the
r.m.s discussion/voting period.


=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Oh I give my life so lightly		|
to my gentle lady.			|	-Richard Hartman	
Giving freely, and completely,		|	hartman@uLogic.COM
for my lady.				|
Xref: sparky news.groups:22604 news.admin.misc:389 misc.kids:28915 soc.roots:7749
Organization: Queen's University at Kingston
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 17:57:21 EST
From: K. Roper <ROPERK@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.misc,alt.adoption,misc.kids,soc.roots
Subject: Re: RFD/CFD: soc.adoption
 <1992Nov19.210102.2029@sunova.ssc.gov> <BxzJL2.KB9@world.std.com>
 <1ehi06INNm3r@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU>

In article <1ehi06INNm3r@MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU>, randall-joshua@yale.edu (Joshua
Randall) says:
>
>
>Could both of you say *why* you think this group should be created?
>
>Also, I agree with an earlier poster:  this "RFD" does not follow the guilde-
>lines.  Scrap it, see if there's really any interest, and if so, start over.
>
>--
>Joshua E. Randall                       randall-joshua@yale.edu

FYI:

  The interest is there; the protocol wasn't followed.  It wasn't a request
    made on a whim.

  I, any many others, support it.

  Kim
Xref: sparky news.groups:22747 soc.culture.pakistan:17112 soc.culture.indian:38001 soc.culture.bangladesh:6182
From: khalid@bu-bio.bu.edu (Rasheed A. Khalid)
Newsgroups: news.groups,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.bangladesh
Subject: Re: The Moderator of SRI is PREJUDICE!
Date: 23 Nov 92 19:14:08 GMT
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: Biology Department, Boston University, Boston, MA, USA

Mr. Mansoor A. Jaffery, it is useless trying to clarify your position
on the net as to why you did what you did, as people have already made
up their opinions about you, which are unlikely to change.  It would
probably be a waste of time trying to indulge in such useless arguments.
While it is true that the matter is being given extra length by your
opponents, I would also like to point out that you should expect this
much of opposition, based on what you did.  I would have, if I had done
it.  You did not try to be very clear in the beginning as to the fact
that you were becoming a volunteer as the new vote taker.  The right
way to have done that was to make this fact (and just this fact) clear.
What you did instead was to copy Mr. Rana's CFV word for word, except
that you had yourself as the vote taker.  I do not doubt your intention
at all, but a cynic would say you wanted to cheat Dave Lawrence as, given
the busy hours he had, he would probably not read the whole CFV to verify
that it was the same as the one presented by Rana.  Furthermore, you did
not even change the names of the moderators.  The main reason why the
entire (if not most of) the responsibility for this mischief bounces back
at your nose is just that you did not clarify that you were becoming
a volunteer to make matters easy.  Had you done that, everyone would
have had words of praise for you, or even accepted you as the vote taker.
So, having made at least one mistake, viz: not having stated your intentions
clearly, you should not be surprised to read what is being written about
you.  I sympathize with you, however, for if I were in your place, I would
have felt very uncomfortable and ashamed too.

Yours,
Rasheed,
Xref: sparky news.groups:22074 soc.culture.indian:37216 soc.culture.pakistan:16764 soc.culture.bangladesh:5970
From: chandra@cannelloni.cis.ohio-state.edu (B Chandrasekaran)
Newsgroups: news.groups,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.bangladesh
Subject: Re: CFV: soc.religion.islam.ahmadiyya moderated
Date: 16 Nov 92 22:16:17 GMT
Article-I.D.: cis.1992Nov16.221617.2676
Organization: The Ohio State University Dept. of Computer and Info. Science

In article <1e8sg3INNlfo@CURIE.SYSTEMSY.CS.YALE.EDU> ahmed-shakil@cs.yale.edu (Shakil Waiz Ahmed) writes:
>
....
>Actually, it *is* that simple, and you have yet to show why it isn't.
>The fact of the matter remains that the Qur'an is clear in stating
>that prophet Muhammed (pbuh) was the last prophet, that the Qur'an
>will be protected by God, and that anyone who deviates from this and
>forms their own sects is on their own and not part of Islam.  Since
>the Qur'an had been around for ages before the Ahmadiya sect was
>formed in violation of all the above conditions, it follows that
>anyone who believes completely in the Qur'an (by definition a
>condition for being a Muslim), cannot agree to the notion that
>Ahmadiyas are Muslims.
>

Do the Ahmadias believe they are Muslims?  Presumably they don't believe
that their beliefs deviate from the Qur'an.  If they concede that their
beliefs violate the Qur'an, but they still want to be called Muslims, 
then you are right. But if they claim that their beliefs don't violate
the Qur'an, but you claim that they do, who is the proper person to
Xref: sparky news.groups:22347 news.admin.policy:457 rec.music.synth:18598
From: dave@frackit.UUCP (Dave Ratcliffe)
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.policy,rec.music.synth
Subject: Re: Music Group Reorg Disagreement (was Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored)
Date: 17 Nov 92 21:22:28 GMT
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: Data Factory Services, Harrisburg, Pa.


 In article <1992Nov10.205344.15647@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>, dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:
 >ckd@eff.org (Christopher Davis) writes:
 >>Dave had plenty of time to post a message, perhaps with a subject like:
 > 
 >This argument is again a straw man. AS I explained before, I was so
 >sure that vote wouldn't pass that I ignored details. It should never
 >be too late to fix something that is objectively destructive.

Never assume. As a supposed News Admin you should know better. 

 >It may be too late now. Thanks, folks, for ruining a perfectly good newsgroup.

Oh, I dunno... news.groups isn't ruined. It'll get back to normal as
soon as your hormones settle down Dave. 


-- 
 ...uunet!wa3wbu!frackit!dave -or-                       |  Dave Ratcliffe  |
 frackit!dave@uunet.UU.NET -or- dave@frackit.uucp -or-   |  Sys. <*> Admin. |
 vogon1!compnect!frackit!dave@psuvax1.psu.edu            | Harrisburg,  Pa. |