From: forda@gtephx.UUCP (Andrew Ford @ AGCS, Phoenix, Arizona)
Subject: Re: NetNews Contract? NOT!
Organization: gte
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 21:12:32 GMT

In article <a_rubin.714853151@dn66>, a_rubin@dsg4.dse.beckman.com (Arthur Rubin) writes:
> In <1992Aug24.225908.5989@gtephx.UUCP> forda@gtephx.UUCP (Andrew Ford @ AGCS, Phoenix, Arizona) writes:
> 
> >A contract is an agreement between two parties to exchanges goods, services
> >and/or money.  The only requirements for forming a binding contract are 
> >that the parties entered into the agreement voluntarily and that the 
> >original intent of the parties has not be obstructed by outside forces.
> 
> That is what I see as weak point of the contract argument; there is no
> identifiable party representing the net.  It's usually clear who the poster
> is.

Pardon me for being unclear: the "contract" is between you and each site.
That is why each site has the right to copy your works.

> >You may not be aware of this, but you have a contract with your state
> >governemnt (if you have a valid driver's license): part of that contract
> >states that you waive your right to a trial by jury for certain 
> >traffic violations -- don't believe me? try getting a ticket and 
> >then asking the judge for a jury trial -- You *do* have a constitutional
> >right to trial by jury -- even for civil cases.  But you *can* contract
> >away those rights, provided no-one forces you.  And since it is very 
> >unlikely that anyone has ever forced you to get a Driver's license, you
> >entered that contract willingly, if unknowingly.
> 
> Bad argument.  Two reasons: (1) you do have a right to a trial by jury for
> a crime; (at least, in California) the government has defined traffic
> tickets as not being a crime, but an "infraction".  (2)  Here in the US,
> you usually can't demand a jury trial when you are sueing the IRS or the
> IRS is sueing you, with only taxes (and not criminal fraud, etc.) is in
> question.  IMHO, that is clearly unconstitutional, but that's the way it
> is.

     United States Constitution
 6th Amendment
 In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right 
 to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state 
 and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which 
 district shall have been previously ascertained by law; and to be 
 informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be 
 confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory 
 process for obtaining witnesses in his favor; and to have the 
 assistance of counsel for his defense. 

 7th Amendment
 In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall 
 exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be 
 preserved; and no fact, tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-
 examined in any court of the United States than according to the 
 rules of the common law. 

In order to circumvent these provisions, states have created
"administrative courts" which you contractually agree to when
you sign your driver's license. 

Congress played the same game by creating "administrative 
courts" for the IRS -- a system which you also contract 
with by signing a W-4.



-- 
"25 States allow anyone to buy a gun, strap it on, and walk down the street with
no permit of any kind: some say it's crazy.  However, 4 out of 5 US murders are 
committed in the other half of the country: so who is crazy?"   -  Andrew Ford
gtephx!forda@enuucp.eas.asu.edu  OR  !uunet!samsung!romed!enuucp!gtephx!forda