HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jgh@impmh.uucp (Jeremy Harris)
Subject: Re: Motorbikes on Congested Motorways
Organization: Integrated Micro Products Ltd
Distribution: uk
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 12:24:52 GMT

In <1jjabnINNi2t@bnsgd245.bnr.co.uk> ianking@nnsgs52 (Ian King) writes:

>   Now along comes a motorbike(s) between the outside lane and the middle lane
>   travelling faster (say 10-15mph) than the rest of the traffic.
[..]
>   What I'd like to know is, why it seems that motorbike riders are not aware
>   of the perils of this practise when traffic is changing lanes [..]

I am very aware of the dangers of doing this.  It doesn't stop me doing it;
there are many dangers to take account of when on a bike, most of which
concern the habits of drivers with four wheels.  Especially Volvo drivers.
The only way to be safe on two wheels, it seems, is to assume that everyone
else on the road (on wheels, feet or hooves) IS out to get you.  YOU,
specifically.  (Wot?  Me, paranoid?)

As a sideline,  I learned to ride several years after I learned to drive.
I found it amazing how it increased the quality of my observation while
driving.  Recommended to any driver.   I'd go so far as to suggest that it
ought to be mandatory for any driver in Central London to have ridden a
bike in London for a year.


Jeremy Harris

PS: Ian, as someone else said, thanks for noticing motorcyclists specially.
    We appreciate it, even if we don't always get the time to acknowlege
    that slight shift which give us an extra six inches more room.
From: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
Newsgroups: uk.transport
Subject: Re: Assholes and Education
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 93 18:00:52 GMT
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.
X-Newsreader: rusnews v0.98

martin@praxis.co.uk (Martin Croxford) writes:
> I spent yesterday (Sunday) afternoon in casualty with the friend referred
> to above. He wrote off his Peugot 205 1.9 GTi (bought 4 weeks after
> passing his test) attempting to drive round a corner too fast.
> Fortunately he didn't kill anybody, though he'll be paying for his
> mistake for a while - the car was only insured 3rd party; he couldn't
> afford more than the 1,000 odd quid that that cost him !

I wonder why they wanted to charge him 1000 quid, eh?

> He isn't a reckless driver (despite the boy racer image of his car),

Come off it.  What sort of driver do you think buys a 1.9 litre GTi
immediately after passing his driving test?  Is it (a) a careful considerate
one, or (b) a sad git with too much money who wants a macho metal penis
extension and thinks he's Nigel Mansell?

> just a bad one - he recognises that his driving needs improving
> (especially now !). The accident was his fault and nobody else was hurt
> and my first reaction was "he had it coming - he shouldn't have bought
> the car, he should have taken more lessons" etc. But what concerns me is
> that he could have wiped out a family. He was driving to the best of his
> ability - an ability that was enough to pass the driving test. 
> 
> I question a system that allows bad drivers on the roads, especially
> in powerful cars.

Delete the words "bad" and "powerful" from that last sentence, and you have
my sentiments exactly.

You probably think I'm being unnecessarily harsh.  If so, try being a cyclist.


mathew
From: martin@pharaoh.cyborg.bt.co.uk (Martin Gorman)
Newsgroups: uk.transport
Subject: Re: Rear end drivers, etc
Date: 27 Jan 93 12:46:53 GMT
Organization: British Telecom

ianking@nnsgs52 (Ian King) writes:
>> Debby drives a BMW 525ix so has 4WD ABS and a new suspension, as a rep she
>>    does a lot of miles.

>No you should include Debby in that. She is probably over-confident of her
>car's ability and probably impatient since as a rep she has to get to meetings
>on time. (I *know* a lot of reps :-) ... I'm not one :-) ). The number of
>people who tailgate with BMWs seems to be higher than other makes... well on
>the M1 anyway IMHO.

This is highly subjective. Perhaps a hint of envy there too?

Martin (Volvo driver)
From: rap@bnr.co.uk (Richard Porter)
Newsgroups: uk.transport
Subject: Re: Rear end drivers, etc
Date: 20 Jan 1993 13:37:28 GMT
Organization: BNR Europe Limited
NNTP-Posting-Host: bnsgs193.bnr.co.uk

In article <21063@acorn.co.uk> asmith@acorn.co.uk (Andy Smith) writes:

>The only way to make the roads safe is to allow for the sheep. You need a to 
>teach people to drive. NOT how to pass the test.

Both, but the test should prove that they can drive, not just make the car go.

>They should then have a 
>1 year limit to 1600cc and no motorway access, followed by a motorway test.

Let's see ... a Caterham 7 with a 1600 cc engine, 16 valve head, turbocharger
:-)

A restricted driver should have motorway access if accompanied by a driver
who has held a full licence for more than one year.

>Speed signs need to be replaced with variable signs, that read x MPH during
>the day 1/2 x when it gets dark or starts raining, and 1/4 x when there is
>ice around.

Totally impracticable. How much would it cost to install rain and ice
detectors and to have variable signs? There's a case for an automatic
reduction in the rain or after dark as in France, but I wouldn't vote
for it. I certainly wouldn't leave it to the Police to alter the speed
limit signs or they'd be all over the place (and who could prove in a
court what the sign was showing at a particular time). Also think about
all the repeater signs! I would however support temporary lower speed
limits at certain locations such as outside schools during times when the
kids are about.

>Learners should be limited to 60mph max, normal drivers to 70mph and advanced
>drivers to 90mph. This would give sales reps the incentive to advance their
>driving skills.

Given that most of them seem to drive at 90 regardless, it wouldn't make much
difference. Introducing more mandatory speed differentials will only add to
congestion and lead to impatient drivers taking more risks.

>There should also be a mandatory eye and reaction test every 10 years.

Why not a proper driving and Highway Code test?

>The law needs to be changed to reduce the chance of dangerous drivers getting
>on the road, cameras tar everyone with the same brush. It is NOT speed that
>kills; it is the way that speed is used.

The faster you're going the deader you are. I think it is rather a dangerous
attitude if you believe that you should be allowed to drive at 90 and others
should be restricted to 60 or 70. You are right to want better driver
education and testing, but that should reduce the need for more and more
restrictions, silly signs and white paint all over the place.

Richard Porter
From: mathew <mathew@mantis.co.uk>
Newsgroups: uk.transport
Subject: Re: Bus vs Car Costs (Was: Re: City Traffic)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 15:55:04 GMT
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.
X-Newsreader: rusnews v0.98

T.I.Morley@lut.ac.uk (TI Morley) writes:
> One way of evening things up is to try to decrease the fixed cost of
> having a car and increase the marginal cost. The most obvious way of
> doing this is to reduce or abolish road tax and increase the tax (duty?)
> on fuel to compensate. Can anyone think of anything else that can be
> done on these lines?

Yes.  Instruct the police not to prosecute car thieves.  The Tory
government's trying the more indirect approach of increasing poverty and
underfunding the Police force, but the end result is the same.


mathew
[ "Sounds good to me..." ]
From: nht@cs.bham.ac.uk (Neville H Thomas)
Newsgroups: uk.transport
Subject: Hazzard Lights
Date: 26 Jan 93 11:08:33 GMT
Distribution: uk
Organization: School of Computer Science, University of Birmingham, UK


Tripping up and down on the M6, I notice that when traffic
is slowing down, the current trend is turn on the hazzard warning
lights.

In most vehicles the hazzard warning light is difficult to reach
(e.g. behind the steering wheel on my car). It certainly wasn't
intended to be switched on whilst the vehicle is in motion.

I wonder if this malpractice is happening else where (not just,
north of Brum)?



-- 
Email: N.H.Thomas@cs.bham.ac.uk     G7ABW
Work:       Fax: 021 414 4281     Tel: 021 414 3736
Home Tel: 021 454 5729            Mobile: 0831 692 647
From: d_smith@csd.uwe.ac.uk (Dylan Smith)
Newsgroups: uk.transport
Subject: Re: Speed Limits
Date: 26 Jan 93 16:23:45 GMT
Organization: University of the West of England, Bristol

In article <21157@acorn.co.uk> steve@acorn.co.uk (Steve "daffy" Hunt) writes:

>As far as the higher design speed is concerned, remember that
>initially the motorways were unrestricted (ie, no speed limit).  I
>think the "experimental" 70mph limit was introduced in the early
>seventies.

I think it was in fact introduced during one of the oil crises to
reduce fuel consumption.
-- 
Email : JANET  dylan@uwe.hal | Everywhere else : dylan@hal.uwe.ac.uk
             d_smith@uwe.csd |                 d_smith@csd.uwe.ac.uk
From: sm@cel.co.uk (salim mehta)
Newsgroups: uk.transport
Subject: Re: City Traffic
Date: 22 Jan 93 16:31:03 GMT
Distribution: uk
Organization: Crosfield Electronics Ltd.
In-reply-to: roj@cs.bham.ac.uk's message of 20 Jan 93 13:38:58 GMT

In article <1993Jan20.133858@cs.bham.ac.uk> roj@cs.bham.ac.uk (Robert O Jackson) wrote:
> Its a shame that the cost of catching the bus from point A (or rather the
> nearest bus stop) to point B (or some point near it) costs as much as if
> not more than driving from point A to point B.

Actually the *costs* are not the same, only the *prices* are.

If 50 people make journey A-B by bus they each pay UKLx. If they now repeat
that journey by private transport they also incur the cost (to all of us)
of the increased congestion (journey time) and pollution (journey quality).

Someone has to pay for these, it should be the motorist. Our government,
however, prefer to share out these costs so that the bus passenger also pays.

This is the strange kind of socialism that sells to the Great British Public
- sic. A similar thinking brought us the "fair" Poll Tax!!!!!


--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Salim Mehta                             Phone :  +44 442 230000  x3450
Crosfield Electronics Ltd               Fax   :  +44 442 232301
Hemel Hempstead  HERTS HP2 7RH  UK      Email :  sm@crosfield.co.uk
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
     Alt email :  sm@cel.uucp     ...!{mcsun,uknet,uunet}!cel!sm
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From: ianking@nnsgs52 (Ian King)
Newsgroups: uk.transport
Subject: Motorbikes on Congested Motorways
Date: 20 Jan 1993 10:43:03 GMT
Organization: Northern Telecom Europe Ltd
Reply-To: ianking@lon40.nt.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: nnsgs52.lon40.nt.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]

Here is a question I've been meaning to ask and it can really only be
answered by those of you who ride motorbikes on motorways during the rush hours.

Q. Suppose the traffic is stop/start and all three lanes are full. It is early
   morning (7am ish), in the dark, on the M1 southbound, say around Junct 9 (to
   give an idea of traffic density). What is happening is that cars/vans/lorries
   are changing lanes when the traffic does start to move and this happens every
   morning. The motorway is lit here.
   
   Now along comes a motorbike(s) between the outside lane and the middle lane
   travelling faster (say 10-15mph) than the rest of the traffic. This happens
   most mornings.

   Now I dont ride motorbikes and if I could I wouldn't dare go on the M1 on one.

   What I'd like to know is, why it seems that motorbike riders are not aware
   of the perils of this practise when traffic is changing lanes ie cutting across
   the riders path. There are rarely long signals from the drivers doing this.
   They just see a gap, stick the indicator out & go. Its bad enough for the
   other drivers but for a rider its almost suicide because the drivers cant
   make out their single headlight from the mass of lights behind. I've seen
   this quite a few times. I always treat motorbikes as though they were small
   cars & give them enough room (which proved fortuitous sometime last year).
   
   Is it illegal to ride  between the lanes?.

--
ADVANCE MICRO COMPUTERS LTD & Wolverton Rail | EMAIL: ianking@amicro.demon.co.uk
 PO Box 362, Olney, Nr. Milton Keynes,       |   or   ianking@lon40.nt.com
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   TEL: +44 (0)234-711615 FAX: +44 (0)234-240976 MOBILE: +44 (0)831-535618
From: igb@fulcrum.co.uk (Ian G Batten)
Newsgroups: uk.transport
Subject: Re: Speed Limits
Date: 26 Jan 93 17:31:06 GMT
Organization: Fulcrum Communications

In article <1993Jan26.162345.28953@csd.uwe.ac.uk> d_smith@csd.uwe.ac.uk (Dylan Smith) writes:
> I think it was in fact introduced during one of the oil crises to
> reduce fuel consumption.

No.  It was introduced in the sixties during the periodic upheavals over
danger.  Castle?  Marples?  The restrictions during the oil crisis were
more severe.

ian
Newsgroups: uk.transport
From: maj@cl.cam.ac.uk (Martyn Johnson)
Subject: Re: Hazzard Lights
Organization: U of Cambridge Computer Lab, UK
Distribution: uk
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 14:05:01 GMT

In article <C1GKA9.4Fv@cs.bham.ac.uk>, nht@cs.bham.ac.uk (Neville H Thomas) writes:
|> 
|> Tripping up and down on the M6, I notice that when traffic
|> is slowing down, the current trend is turn on the hazzard warning
|> lights.

This practice is sanctioned, recommended even, in the (latest) Highway
Code, under specific circumstances which you can discover by going and
looking it up.

|> I wonder if this malpractice is happening else where (not just,
|> north of Brum)?

Not a malpractice if done right. The conditions under which it should
be done are not inconsistent with your description, though "slowing
down" is not of itself sufficient cause.

I suspect the practice started as one of the signals HGV drivers use
to each other, and has gradually become accepted.

-- 
Martyn Johnson      maj@cl.cam.ac.uk
University of Cambridge Computer Lab
Cambridge UK
Newsgroups: uk.transport
From: jfid@mfltd.co.uk (James Fidell (x5320))
Subject: Re: Motorbikes on Congested Motorways
Organization: Micro Focus Ltd., Newbury, UK
Distribution: uk
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 12:30:50 GMT


In article <1jjabnINNi2t@bnsgd245.bnr.co.uk>, ianking@nnsgs52 (Ian King)
writes:
> 
> Q. Suppose the traffic is stop/start and all three lanes are full. It is early
>    morning (7am ish), in the dark, on the M1 southbound, say around Junct 9
>    (to give an idea of traffic density). What is happening is that cars/vans/
>    lorries are changing lanes when the traffic does start to move and this
>    happens every morning. The motorway is lit here.
>   
>    Now along comes a motorbike(s) between the outside lane and the middle lane
>    travelling faster (say 10-15mph) than the rest of the traffic. This happens
>    most mornings.
> 
>    Now I dont ride motorbikes and if I could I wouldn't dare go on the M1
>    on one.

You haven't lived (IMHO :-)

> 
>    What I'd like to know is, why it seems that motorbike riders are not aware
>    of the perils of this practise when traffic is changing lanes ie cutting
>    across
>    the riders path. There are rarely long signals from the drivers doing this.
>    They just see a gap, stick the indicator out & go. Its bad enough for the
>    other drivers but for a rider its almost suicide because the drivers cant
>    make out their single headlight from the mass of lights behind.

I think most motorcyclists are more than aware of the dangers they face --
after all, in many car accidents, the driver can walk away.  If you ride
a motorbike then you have to accept the situation that it's going to hurt
if you come off.  It does put things into perspective.

I do split lanes occasionally -- mostly when the traffic is relatively slow
(say less than 40mph), and I feel quite safe doing it.  I usually ride a few
yards from the back of the vehicle, though not behind it.  When
I am comfortable the the driver is not going to make any sudden change
of direction, then all that's required is a quick twist of the throttle.  In
the right gear, the acceleration is such that I can pass a car in two or
three seconds which I feel is sufficient for me to pass safely before anything
untoward can happen.  It helps to watch the driver before passing, too --
you can usually get a fairly good idea of what is going on from their head
movements.

>                                                                     I've seen
>    this quite a few times. I always treat motorbikes as though they were small
>    cars & give them enough room (which proved fortuitous sometime last year).

Thank you for your consideration.  I wish more car drivers would act the
same way.
    
>    Is it illegal to ride  between the lanes?.

I have to say that I don't actually know.  But I don't do it if there are
policemen watching...
-- 
 "Yield to temptation --             |
  it may not pass your way again"    |     jfid@mfltd.co.uk
                                     |
        - Lazarus Long               |              James Fidell
Newsgroups: uk.transport
From: grmd@lrts1.demon.co.uk ("Gareth R. M. Davies")
Subject: Re: Assholes and Education 
Distribution: world
Organization: Lotwillow Ltd.
Reply-To: grmd@lrts1.demon.co.uk
X-Mailer: Simple NEWS 1.90 (ka9q DIS 1.19)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 19:46:40 +0000

In article 2971@lsl.co.uk, snail@lsl.co.uk () writes:

>Hmmm, never seen that one on an insurance form. Anyone know of firms who do
>this? NOt that I dis-believe Robert, just never heard of it.

When you pass the ROSPA test, they send you information about
a couple of insurance brokers/companies.  Most insurance companies
don't care less whether you have passed an advanced driving test
or not.  Presumably their argument is that if you really are a
safer driver then this will become apparent over the next 'n' years
when you make fewer claims, thereby improving your no-claims bonus.
Of course, you don't need to be at fault to be making a claim ...
but then the discount is clearly for no claims rather than no
blame.

As I remember, the quote from the insurance company I'd heard of
previously was significantly higher than most of the other quotes
I received, whereas the quote from the company I'd never heard of
(Boncaster) was the best I could find.  When I bought a higher
performance car (Alpha 75 - 2 litres) then Boncaster were unable
to give me a competitive quotation.

-- 
Gareth R. M. Davies
grmd@lrts1.demon.co.uk                 Work tel. +44 753 696777 x2613
Home tel. +44 344 21729                Work fax. +44 753 696254
From: paj@uk.co.gec-mrc (Paul Johnson)
Newsgroups: uk.transport
Subject: Re: Role of cameras observing highways (Was: Speed trap cameras
Date: 20 Jan 93 17:02:20 GMT
Reply-To: paj@uk.co.gec-mrc (Paul Johnson)
Distribution: uk
Organization: GEC-Marconi Research Centre, Great Baddow, UK

In article <1993Jan18.144530@axion.bt.co.uk> krees@axion.bt.co.uk (Kearton Rees) writes:

>True enough. One issue here is that if someone is photographed there is
>nothing to tell them so. I think even the most reckless of drivers is likely
>to slow down if  told that they have just been photographed for speeding.
>
>If they don't realise this they will carry on as they are (and possibly
>being photographed again). When the fine comes through later (anyone know
>how much later?) The location and the details may have been long forgotten.
>
>If they are informed at the time they are likely to take more care to keep
>their licence.


There is also the legal/civil rights issue of what constitutes "an
offence".  If I hold a steady 90mph down the M1 and am photographed by
automatic cameras ten times, is that ten offences or just one?  How
about if there are fifty cameras?  How about if the local Chief of
Police decides to crack down and lines up 100 policemen on a one mile
stretch, each of whom books me?  (Yes, this is a rhetorical example,
not something I expect to happen).  Somehow having punishment
proportional to the number of cameras does not sound right.  Surely I
should only be given a second offence after being notified of the
first, which would mean not being prosecuted more than once or twice a
week, assuming they process the films promptly and then mail out the
notices 1st class.

Paul.
-- 
Paul Johnson (paj@gec-mrc.co.uk).	    | Tel: +44 245 73331 ext 3245
--------------------------------------------+----------------------------------
These ideas and others like them can be had | GEC-Marconi Research is not
for $0.02 each from any reputable idealist. | responsible for my opinions
From: jcs@zoo.bt.co.uk (John C Sager)
Newsgroups: uk.transport
Subject: Re: Speed Limits [was: Rear end drivers, etc]
Date: 21 Jan 93 13:14:15 GMT
Distribution: uk
Organization: British Telecommunications plc

Whilst it has not yet reached the vituperative excesses of alt.flame, this
discussion has certainly generated a lot of hot air, which I suppose
was inevitable. I guess I am one of those drivers who drives faster than
average, and nothing I have read here persuades me that I should moderate
my speed for safety or the environment.
Personally, I would like nothing better than a drive-by-wire system which
would maintain speed, direction and vehicle separation on trunk roads &
motorways. Then I could read a book or something. Yes, I know I could do this
by taking a coach or the train, but then I'm without personal transport at the
far end, and it's cheaper using the car when transporting the family.

John C Sager					Mail:	B67 G18, BT Labs
Email:	jcs@zoo.bt.co.uk				Martlesham Heath
Tel:	+44 473 642623					IPSWICH  IP5 7RE
Fax:	+44 473 637614					England
Newsgroups: uk.transport
From: ian@edscom.demon.co.uk (Ian Green)
Subject: Re: Motorway Madness
Organization: EDS-Scicon, Milton Keynes, UK
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 09:02:12 GMT

I agree with all that Dave said at the start of this thread about motorway
signs and people who pull into the gap that you have left in front of you
for safety reasons - it annoys the hell out of me too.

One sentence did have me concerned tho'.....

:                            Typically its foggy and I have left a bigger than
: usual gap between me and the car in front so I can be sure of stopping.  Then
: some idiot decides to pull into the gap resulting in three cars being nose to 
: tail.

If the car pulling in really does leave you 'nose-to-tail' then it's a fairly
safe bet that you hadn't left a big enough gp in the first place.  You don't
say what speeds are involved but at anything above walking pace in the fog 
this is probably true.

Ian.
-- 
/--------------------------------------v----------------------------------\
| Opinions expressed are my own and    | Phone: +44 908 585858 or 284508  |
| not necessarily those of my employer | Fax:   +44 908 584620            |
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Newsgroups: uk.transport
From: maj@cl.cam.ac.uk (Martyn Johnson)
Subject: Re: Assholes and Education
Organization: U of Cambridge Computer Lab, UK
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 18:58:41 GMT

In article <C1F3CL.BLp@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk>, dam@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (David Morning) writes:
...
|> Simple solution, spend 5 years after passing your test driving a Reliant Robin
|> irrespective of age. Sit a test again and if you pass, spend 5 years in a
|> 1 litre class basic car with restricted power, as happened to mopeds about
|> 15 years ago when manufacturers started churning out 12 HP 'super mopeds' to
|> side step the then new law on 16 year olds ...that's 240BHP/litre !!!
|> Now they get 2HP and speed governed to boot.
|> Don't see why car drivers should be any different.

You are assuming a one to one correspondence between drivers and vehicles.

By and large this applies to mopeds & motorbikes but not cars.

Whilst there may be a case for SOME restrictions, it seems unreasonable
to deny many newly qualified drivers the opportunity to improve their
skills merely because the only vehicle they could do so in is "the family
car". 

-- 
Martyn Johnson      maj@cl.cam.ac.uk
University of Cambridge Computer Lab
Cambridge UK