From: sethr@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (seth.r.rosenthal)
Subject: Re: Nazi Camps
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 12:55:25 GMT

In article <1992Sep3.191525.15606@sarah.albany.edu>, pawel@tethys.ph.albany.edu writes:
> In article <1992Sep3.173209.25085@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu>, levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene) writes:
> >In article <1992Sep3.170640.27211@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> sethr@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (seth.r.rosenthal) writes:
> >
> >[Concerning Hitler and Stalin]
> >
> >> I have to agree with Pawel here.  Hitler wanted to kill all Jews.
> >> Just because they were Jews, even Jews who had converted or if they
> >> only had one Jewish parent or grandparent.
> >>
> >> Stalin probably resulted in many Jewish deaths, but I doubt that
> >> as many, and not because they were Jews.
> >
> >I thought the main difference between Stalin and Hitler concerning the
> >Jews was that Stalin died just as he was ready to start *his* own
>                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >Jewish genocide plan. 
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >
> >Another difference is that Stalin already had years of experience at
> >mass murdering people.  Discussing who was a worse human being strikes
> >me as rather pointless.
> >
> 
>   We are not discussing "who was a worse human being" since it
> is irrelevant, indeed.
> 
>   It is equally irrelevant to try to guess what would have happend
> had Stalin lived longer or what was on his mind when he was
> dying.  The fact remains that majority of polish Jews which survived
> the war did so because Stalin rounded them up and sent to Siberia,
> but not to the death camps. In 1939, when Poland was divided
> between Germany and Soviet Unions some Jews which found themselves
> on the Soviet side chose to cross the border and be on the German
> side. They thought that it would be better to be under 'civilized'
> German occupation and perished inevitably.
> 

I didn't know this (see ya learn something everyday),
but it doesn't surprise me.  It shouldn't be seen as
a judgement between Stalin and Hitler, though.  The
real problem in Eastern Europe was that these were not
"Lands of Law" as we know it in America.  A non-Jew killing
a Jew in a pogrom was highly unlikely to pay the consequences
for this crime.  Most Jews recognized this, and felt that
they could live quite nicely in Eastern Europe if only
the law was applied equally to them and their neighbors.
This also meant elimination of laws deliberately meant
to discriminate (especially ownership of land).  So, when
the Germans came to Eastern Europe during WWI, the Jews
found two very desirable things about German occupation.
One, the Germans were Law and Order types, and the average
Ukrainian or Pole who decided assaulting a Jew was legal,
was very likely to be dealt with harshly.  Secondly, Yiddish
as a variant of medieval German, became a real advantage
for the Jews since they could understand their German occupiers.
Lots of Jews got jobs as translators or minor officials
with the German army to help the Germans deal with the locals.
The Jews actually made out quite well under German occupation
during WWI.  My G-Uncle Max left Lodz with the rest of the
family in 1919, but he went to Germany because he had liked
his experience with the Germans, and figured he would do well
in Germany.  Our cousin Avram went there too, and actually
survived the war there.  Uncle Max got out in 1929.

When the Germans came to the Ukraine in WWII lots of the
older people decided to stay because they remembered WWI and
despite Hitlers' speaches, felt that the Germans were a good
bunch and wouldn't do anything terrible to the Jews who had
gotten along so well with them just 30 years before.  Sadly.


		Seth Rosenthal

Disclaimer: All opinions are my own not my employers'.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish