HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: amigan@cup.portal.com (R Michael Medwid)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Selfish program?
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 14:43:24 PDT
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: world

Generally, I hear the term "It's a selfish program" in regards 
standing up to peer pressure so as not to remain stuck in old ways.
For instance, an alcoholic who no longer wants to go down to watch the
'9ers with his old drinking buds might be called "selfish" by those
buds.  Or the Alanon who decides to go to a meeting to get some sanity
and clarity rather than fret about what their spouse is up to might be
called selfish by the spouse, the family, or nosey neighbors.  In each
case the person is choosing to nurture their own sanity and sobriety
rather than hang out with the old sick shit.

Also, in the case of Alanons, many are accused of betraying the active
substance abuser.  And a good co-dependent may actually believe they
are being selfish.  In this case if someone in program told them "it's
a selfish program" I think that's a supportive statement saying "your
recovery comes first".

In choosing recovery we will leave some people behind.  Some might call
this selfish.  When we make a decision to turn our will and life over
to the care of God, some people are bound to feel abandoned.  From my
standpoint choosing recovery felt like breaking the chains of shame
and controlling guilt.  This was how my family related and my spirit
felt crushed..this omnipresent black cloud.

Ten years later, in recovery, my life is immeasurably better.  AND
members of my family who initially pissed and moaned and jeered at all
this change and recovery bullsh*t found their own recovery.  Taking the
initial "selfish" step of choosing life and recovery, was my best
decision this century.

-Mike
From: Terry.Murphy@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Terry Murphy)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: good program
Date: 24 Jul 92 00:36:46 GMT
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service

In article <1992Jul23.192448.17138@cbfsb.cb.att.com> joni@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (joni.dunlap) writes:
>I'm curious about what people think about if people, lets say with at least
>five years of abstenance from what ever, are still smoking cigarettes are
>truly working a good program? Tobacco is a deadly drug and smoking is an
>addiction.
>
>Comments?
>
>Joni :)

Joni, I quit smoking three years after my last drink (seven years ago).
I hated every minute of it. I finally quit because my Doctor said it was
the cause of ear problems in our newborn. I had to choose my habit vs. the
welfare of a family member. But if this habit caused me to drink, where
would my family be then. 
Quit smoking for all the good reasons. Work a program of recovery from
alcohol. But remember the story about the wife and the coffee drinker...
^terry

BTW I really do enjoy your other postings in the various newgroups.

Thanks for sharing

--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: davis@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Barbara Davis)
Subject: Re: Addiction a disease?
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 15:47:38 GMT

moiram@sacajawea.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Moira Mallison) writes:

>Great article, Robert.  I would add one more component that has been very 
>important in my recovery process:

>I acknowledge and honor the positive effects of the compulsive
>behavior in my life.  It helped me deal with incredible emotional pain
>when I didn't know any other way to deal with it.  If I had not eaten
>to numb the physical, emotional, and spiritual pain of being
>repeatedly raped by a man whose job it was to love and nurture and
>protect me, I would have killed myself.

>I am grateful that I found a way to live through that hell.  I give
>thanks to my compulsive behavior, for it kept me alive.  Now, I have
>better skills, and more support to deal with that pain.  Now, I make
>healthier choices. 

Thank you, thank you, for voicing this gratitude for your compulsion.  I
understand exactly what you are saying.  My upbringing didn't allow me
or even actually teach me the healthy ways to cope and to make good choices.

Without the comfort of food and the protection of fat, I would have ended up
in far worse situations than I did and I do think the pain would have driven
me to suicide.  

I have recently begun to understand why I was never able to keep off the
weight I lost at various time.  I understood that when the barrier of fat
was gone, people tried to get close to me and I had no relationship skills.
So I would get hurt and scared and I would rebuild my fortress of fat thicker
and stronger than ever so I could be safe again.

Now I have pretty good relationship skills and they are getting better all the
time.  And now the fat isn't a barrier designed to keep people out and I am
attracting some great people into my life.  My weight is no longer an issue
to me.  I weigh what I weigh, period.  I am trying to eat healthier foods
and get more exercise so I can feel great.  This may effect what I weigh.
And again, I weigh what I weigh.

And I say, "Thank you, fat, you have protected me very well, and thank you,
food, you offered great comfort.  And now I am ready to take over and run
my own life.".

Barb
-- 
Barbara G. Davis                       Internet:  davis@ucsu.colorado.edu
University of Colorado, Boulder 

                   If I don't ask, you can't say, "Yes!".
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: joni@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (joni.dunlap)
Subject: Re: Addiction a disease? (not)
Organization: AT&T
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 17:38:39 GMT

In article <1992Jul26.004531.25212@zip.eecs.umich.edu> carnes@sparky.eecs.umich.edu (Richard Carnes) writes:
>
>* So far as I know, no biological cause has been discovered that
>explains addictive behavior.  (Including a gene, contrary to popular
>belief: see A.M. Bolos et al., "Population and pedigree studies reveal
>a lack of association between the dopamine D_2 receptor gene and
>alcoholism," _Journal of the AMA_ 264 (1990): 3156-60.)

Bear with me I saw this program about 2 years ago. The meaning behind it is
still there.

Saw a program on PBS called either The Mind or The Brain. Well, this segment
was on addiction. One of the studies that they showed took a self professed
alcoholics and did cat scan of their brains after they drank some sort
of solution.  Then they did the same to the sons that have never drank 
alcohol.  They then did the same tests to non-alcoholics and their sons.
What they found was that the alcoholics and their sons processed the solution
in the same way. They also found that the non-alcoholics and their sons
processed the solutions in the same way. 

Joni :)


Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: joannee@sco.COM (Joanne Eglash)
Subject: Re: Splitting alt.recovery
Reply-To: joannee@fscott.UUCP (Joanne Eglash)
Organization: The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc.
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 18:15:58 GMT


I have been reading the various complaints/comments leading
folks to want to split alt.recovery. 

I am concerned because I don't want to miss out on what I can
learn from others.  I think of the oft-heard refrain "Look for
the similarities; not the differences" and "If I can take home
one helpful thought from a meeting, that meeting was worthwhile."

So, I'd like to suggest that rather than focus our discussion on
nitpicking each other's programs/addictions, how about a new topic:

fear.  How do we face up to our fears and walk through them?

Anyone heard of a book by Robert Fisher about a knight?  He wears
very glossy shiny armor and feels no fear or other emotions. 
As I recall (it's been quite a while since I read the story), the
knight starts to want to feel SOMETHING.  So he asks Merlin the
magician how he can learn to feel. And Merlin tells him he must rust
away his armour by crying... 

I sometimes feel that whatever our addictions, they are like a form
of armour that protect us from feeling the fear.  And by removing
the addiction (i.e., abstaining from alcohol or cigarettes or sugar or...),
we learn to feel the fear.

comments?


Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: afdenis@lims02.lerc.nasa.gov (Stephen Dennison)
Subject: Please respond... Dan needs your love and support.
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Ancient Souls Inc.
Date: 21 Jul 1992 21:18 EST  

Friends,

I lurk here for information and to be of help where I can. Now I turn to 
you to help a very special and troubled friend of mine. Dan is recovering, 
but it's not an emotional recovery or recovery from an addiction, but 
rather he's recovering from a physical injury and a lifetime of confusion 
and pain. He has rejected drug use and has turned away from many other 
negative influences in his life and is making a miraculous recovery from a 
head injury, but as he returns to full capacity, he is now dealing with the 
ignorance of the school system and the people around him. His friends, not 
understanding that he is the same caring person he was before the injury, 
are treating him differently and that is hurting him. The schools are 
treating him to their `one size fits all' individualized learning programs,
otherwise known as `Special Education', and all the labels that go along 
with it. He has recently been writing out his frustration in free-form 
essays, and they have been taking on increasingly positive tones until this 
one. Please excuse the use of the `F' word this one time as I feel you 
would miss the true feelings if I left it out. 

I need you all to offer what support, in addition to mine, that you can. I 
don't want to lose Dan, the *world* doesn't want to lose Dan as he is one 
of the most kind and loving people I have ever had the pleasure to call 
`friend'. If you see and share his pain, offer him what hope and comfort 
you can in posts and e-mail and I'll pass them on to him. Please hurry, I 
found this one accidentally and it's already a week old.

From Dan ...
=========================================================================
Pain... agony... misery... 
The hurt and pain have been inflicted. Ticked, pissed off... 
hot headed with nothing to cool it off. Darkness imprisoning me
inside my wall.
My history has been Hell, and that's going to change.

Why is Earth Hell, and everybody lies about it ?
Life's a bitch, and then you die. 
Fuck the world, let's all get high.

The hell with school ! I'll be a fool, school or not because I have 
been labeled.
No matter where I go, people know about it and I'm labeled,
and I'm getting sick of it.
And I was born to die, because I want to just go and get high and that 
will satisfy me.


Later,

Dan

=========================================================================

Thank you ,


-- Stephen

	The smallest light offered in total darkness is a blinding
	beacon of hope.
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: ssalter@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (-=[SLS]=-)
Subject: Re: Splitting alt.recovery
Organization: OFSA
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 15:11:44 GMT

weiss@leopard.cs.uidaho.edu remarks:

>
>(I'm not sure I think alt.recovery ought to be split yet)
>
>Phil.


Me either. What's all the fluff about? If ya don't wanna read a
certain article hit your "j" key or whatever equivalent you may
possess. 

Sounds like we got some control problems going on here. :) Just take
what you want and leave the rest. 

Steven

Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: scp8340@ocvaxa.cc.oberlin.edu
Subject: Re: RECOVERY!@???
Organization: Houck Computing Center, Oberlin College, OH USA
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 20:31:13 GMT
X-Posted-From: ocvaxa.cc.oberlin.edu
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1992Jul20.144405.28598@intelhf.hf.intel.com>, mikec@intelhf.hf.intel.com (Mi
> one day at a time
> expect a miracle

> Need anything else?
> 
> Mike
> 

I saw that 'expect a miracle' and almost started crying.  A miracle is what I'm
looking for right now, while I'm concentrating on just living one day at a
time.  Bad time of life right now.  My SO is gone for a two week trip & he has
the only close friend I had here for the summer & I find myself with no one I'm
really comfortable going to in emergencies, when I need to be around someone,
when I'm lonely...I just got me.  And one of the other few people I have a real
connection to is on vacation too, otherwise I probably would have wasted the
money to fly to Florida to stay with her for these two weeks.  I remember, as a
child when I was most fed up with my mother, with my life, that I wanted to
just cut myself off from the rest of the world, say that I didn't need anybody,
I wouldn't talk to anybody....well this is the closest I've come to that wish 
and I really don't like it.  I need people in my life, yes I do.  The first
night was the hardest, I was awake all night, the one friend I can call at any
hour, whenever I need her was out, and the computer was down, so I couldn't get
e-mail help/connections either.  I almost started drinking that night.  I don't
drink hardly ever, I've always been too terrified to because there is so much
alcoholism in my family & because I *know* I get addicted to things.  But I
have this one bottle of rum in my house & I was thinking about it & thinking 
about trying to lose my feelings in it & terrified of doing that, I've already
used food, books, computer games, e-mail, chocaolate/sugar as drugs of choice,
I *don't* need to add another one, especially not one as dangerous as
alcohol...
and I didn't drink, I did indulge in compulsive eating, ice-cream & all, but I
did survive the night...and I didn't drive when I knew I would have been
reckless driving...and that was a few days ago & right now I'm just trying to 
make it through each day.  (Or night rather, I'm too afraid to sleep at night
so I sleep all day & stay awake all night)  I wish I could just sleep through
the next few weeks or month until school starts again & I have support folks
around.

expect a miracle.

well I do think it is a miracle that after that awful night I"m still here,
I've even take care of some things (going to the bank, paying a speeding
ticket, doing some dishes)  I keep missing my meetings though, I wish I knew
of evening meetings in my town because I can't sleep at night, too many horrors
come out of the dark at me, so I usually can't manage to be awake for early
afternoon meetings.  And i need my meetings, now more than ever.

thanks for letting me share.

-christina
From: gpotts@hebb.uoregon.edu
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: I hate this.
Date: 23 Jul 92 01:40:39 GMT
Organization: University of Oregon Network Services


	Well, I'm just four months out of a 5 year relationship in which we had
a child together and she had 2 childer already. The pain of that separation
has been as great as the pain that got me through the doors in the first
place. So I am trying to use that pain as a motivation to change the
patterns that keep putting me in these situations.

	One of my great fears is of being alone. Since I am alone today, it
means I'm going to be alone FOREVER! I depend on others for my feeling of
being loveable. That, of course, makes me feel powerless and resentfull in
my relationships because I am totally dependant upon that other person for
my warm feelings and would do anything to keep them from leaving -- just
like I'd once do anything to stay loaded. I have sacrificed my self-respect
more than once to hold onto an abusive person and have turned abusive
myself in my frustration and rage.

	The basic text of my primary fellowship (NA) in talking about the
second step, defines insanity as making the same mistakes and expecting
different results. So today, with help (I've been in counseling and going
to CoDA), I am making some different choices.

	When I feel like eating a frozen dinner and sitting in front of the TV
feeling sorry for myself, I cook a salmon steak, wild rice, and asparagus
instead and eat it, by myself, by candlelight. I asked a girl that I like
but am not sexually interested in out to dinner -- we had good conversation
and relaxed fun and went home alone. I am (so far) refraining from jumping
in the sack with the first available person. Just for today.

	This is not to say I don't have my moments. I spend many hours wracked
with loneliness, jealousy (she is not always sleeping alone, grrr), and
self pity as well as plenty of good, honest grief -- it was a big loss and
it will take me time to get over it. But life goes on. I am clean today. I
have many valuable people in my life. I am a person of value and integrity.
I don't much care for sleeping alone but I'll live -- I only spen a third
of my life in bed anyway. And on the bigger scale of things, whether or not
I have a girlfriend today isn't really that big an issue.

	Hang in there. I have faith (today, anyway) that I'm coming out of this
a better person and that, perhaps, someday, I can be a better partner for
someone.

--geoff
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: weiss872@snake.cs.uidaho.edu (Phil Weiss)
Subject: What AA meetings are (and are not)
Organization: none
Reply-To: weiss@leopard.cs.uidaho.edu
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 19:06:10 GMT
X-Posted-From: snake.cs.uidaho.edu
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu


In alt.recovery, drh@spock.EBay.Sun.COM writes:
|> Recovery can be sharing *whatever* it is we need to share.

And rbn@ralph.rtpnc.epa.gov (Bob Boyd) responded:
|> This is a great point -- the success of a meeting is whether or not I shared
|> what I needed to.

The success of a meeting is whether or not I carried the message to an alcoholic
who still suffers.

When did recovery become "sharing"?  None of the Twelve Steps mention
"sharing" and I don't believe the Big Book mentions "sharing" either.
(Anyone who knows better on this one, please correct me.)

Step one is admiting. Step 2 is coming to believe.  Step 3 is giving something
to God (or deciding to, depending on how you view the step). Step 4
is inventorying.  Step 5 is admitting to God, to ourselves and another person.
This is the closest I can come to "sharing" in the steps.  Step 6 is becoming
ready.  Step 7 is asking.  Step 8 is making a list.  Step 9 is making
amends.  Step 10 is continuing to take inventory.  Step 11 is praying.
Step 12 is carrying the message and practicing the principles.  This
may be close to "sharing" as well.  It is close, but definately not
the same.

I do not necessarily carry the message when I "share" nor do I necessarily
admit my faults when I "share."  "Sharing" is something much broader,
akin to talking.

AA is not group therapy.

As always, my opinions and experiences are those of myself only.  I do not
speak for AA as a whole.

Phil.

Those who do not recover are people who cannot, or will not, completely
give themselves to this simple program.
From: debrag@mattys.EBay.Sun.COM (Debra Giberson)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Not Smoking
Date: 27 Jul 1992 15:46:13 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: debrag@mattys.EBay.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: mattys.ebay.sun.com


I now have 6 weeks (or 42 days) without cigarettes. I really think
I am going to do it this time!!

Debra
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: "Andrew M. Taylor" <amtaylor@silver.ucs.indiana.edu>
Subject: Ugh.
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 06:22:34 GMT
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]

Hi,
Just had one of those revelations while lying in bed.  One of those
truths I have to learn over and over and over again.  Part of admitting
I am powerless is admitting I am powerless over my own past mistakes.
No matter how well I am doing now, I cannot undo the past.  I cannot go back.

I realize this is pretty damned bone-head obvious, but it is very
difficult for me to accept sometimes.  Perhaps it is the most
difficult part of Step 1 for me.

Does anyone else here feel this way?

Andy
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: cath@stud.cs.uit.no (Catherine Sundnes)
Subject: Re: Time to Split alt.recovery ???
Organization: University of Tromsoe, Norway
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 08:19:16 GMT

In article <1992Jul27.150245.12337@Cadence.COM>, jerpseth@sd.cadence.com (James Jerpseth) writes:
|> 
|> Perhaps it is time for this newsgroup to split into groups which would more
|> specifically deal with the problem at hand like:
|> 
|> alt.recovery.aa 
|> alt.recovery.oa 
|> alt.recovery.alanon
|> alt.recovery.rr
|> alt.recovery.whiners

Sounds like a good idea to split, but as an anorexic I would feel left out
with the  alt.recovery.oa   - what about something for all eating disorders
like:  alt.recovery.ed  ?

	Cath
-- 
#               cath@stud.cs.uit.no             #  Catherine Sundnes     #
#                                               #  Roedhettestien 7/B209 #
# Student at the World's nothernmost University #  N-9010 Tromsoe        #
# "To eat or not to eat - that's the question." #  Norway (Europe;-)     #
From: rdh@Veritas.COM (Robert Hartman)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: i do it for myself/splitting a.r
Date: 30 Jul 92 02:31:44 GMT
Organization: VERITAS Software

In article <1992Jul28.211752.17448@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov> puckett@lambda.msfc.nasa.gov (Jim Puckett) writes:
>rdh@Veritas.COM (Robert Hartman) writes:
>
><stuff deleted>
>>I believe that those of us who regard this newsgroup as an extended
>>meeting would do well to abide by the rules of any meeting.  That is,
>>_no_crosstalk._  When a newcomer shows up in a meeting and proceeds to
>
>
>uh - Robert, the _only_ place that I have heard that 'no crosstalk'
>rule is in OA - and I have been to AA, OA, Al-Anon, ACA across the
>country.

Hmmm.  Odd.  Every meeting I've ever been to, and my list about matches
yours, has had a "no crosstalk" rule.

Well, for those who don't know what crosstalk is, let me try to
explain.  Crosstalk is interrupting, offering advice (as opposed to
describing one's own relevant experience), asking direct questions for
clarification, or any other response to what another person has said
that might convey an attitude of contempt, disdain, argumentativeness,
or judgement.  The no crosstalk rule allows each person to speak freely
about his or her own experience, without having to risk feeling scorned
or humiliated.  Things are bad enough out there, and so it is imperative
that the rooms in which meetings are held remain safe places,
especially for newcomers.

I've been told that before the "no crosstalk" rule, meetings would
sometimes degenerate into bickering.  That does no one any good.  And
I've noticed that whenever this newsgroup observes the principle of no
crosstalk, it is a delightful place where almost everyone feels
comfortable.  When people don't, I've noticed that it feels worse, and
all sorts of side-issues start creeping in.

So I'd like to propose that we once again observe the principle of no
crosstalk for a while, and see how it goes.  After all, the purpose of
this group is for us to share what works.

-r
Newsgroups: alt.recovery