HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: 880790w@dragon.acadiau.ca (Andrew Ward)
Subject: Re: Boromir and Bombadil
Organization: Acadia University
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 00:01:56 GMT

BLL102@psuvm.psu.edu writes:
>TOM BOMBADIL - I think this is part of a discontinued thread.  It seems like
>Tolkien put him in there, possibly with the intention of using him further,
>and then never got back to him for whatever reason.  There is a lot of space
>devoted to him in the trilogy - more than seemed necessary for a "one-time"
>character, and I can't help but wonder if J.R.R.  had more plans for him
>originally.

>Of course, Tolkien has been known to throw in interesting side line
>characters, like the farmer-with-the-big-dogs-who-grows-mushrooms (can you
>tell I've forgotten his name at the moment?), because some reference is made
>to him later, that he sees more than he tells, or something to that effect.
>Maybe he never intended to go back to Bombadil, but threw him in for a
>diversion.  I dunno about that, though.

>-Belinda LeFor
>bll102@psuvm.psu.edu
>Penn State University
>Anthropology Department

Actually I think Tolkien wrote extensive backgrounds to most of his characters.
In fact, Farmer Maggot (the farmer-with-the-big-dogs-who-grows-mushrooms) and
tom bombadil were good friends and communicated quite frequently.  For more
information on Tom Bombadil you could read "the Adventures of Tom Bombadil"
It's a compilation of poetry by Tolkien about Middle-Earth.  Quite good.

-Andrew Ward.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: tiverson@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu (Thor Iverson)
Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings - the movie?
Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 20:09:47 GMT

Wasn't the first movie done by...I apoligize in advance for the spelling...
Ralph Bakshi?  Or is that just a Saruman-induced hallucination?

There does exist a second part to the movie, done in an animation style
similar to _The Hobbit_ and one of the worst bastardizations of one of
my favorite books since _Dune_...

Thor Iverson


Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: mhatz@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mike Hatz)
Subject: Tom Bombadil's Resistance
Organization: Nyx, Rangers of the North
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 92 22:30:31 GMT

My guess would be Old Tom Bombadil smoked massive quantities of Columbian
"pipeweed"!  ;-)

Thorin Ironnuts
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: gds@york.cs.ucla.edu (Greg Skinner)
Subject: Re: Tom Bombadil
Originator: gds@york.cs.ucla.edu
Reply-To: gds@cs.ucla.edu (Greg Skinner)
Organization: in your face!
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 92 01:27:48 GMT

In article <ARI.HUTTUNEN.92Nov24015521@cardhu.cs.hut.fi> Ari.Huttunen@hut.fi (Ari Huttunen) writes:
>Besides, there are other creatures in Middle-Earth that seem to be
>'outside' the powers of Valar. Gandalf hints at meeting these at
>the deepest dungeons of Moria, while fighting Balrog. 

The Balrog, and the other "creatures" that Gandalf is referring to are
Maia who descended from outside Arda.  Some of them were in Morgoth's
service, and fled far away during the War of Wrath.  Depending on
where they went, subsequent events such as the downfall of Numenor
could have a bearing on what forms they took, what offspring they had,
etc.  (An example of this is Shelob, who is believed to be a
descendant of Ungoliant, a Maia as well.)

>It is this richness that is one of the strengths of Tolkien's works.
>Everything doesn't have to be a logical part of something. (This isn't
>something Mr. Spock would understand.) And because of this richness,
>we cannot talk about one person being 'lawful good' or some other AD&D
>character type. So how about forgetting the AD&D stuff when talking 
>about Middle-Earth?

I recall reading somewhere, perhaps in one of the _Letters_ that
Bombadil is supposed to be an enigma.

--gregbo
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: dechc00@tohi.DMI.USherb.Ca (CHRISTIAN DECHAMPLAIN)
Subject: Re: Boromir
Organization: Universite de Sherbrooke -- departement de Mathematiques et
	d'Informatique
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 02:26:55 GMT


You guys are making this too complicated.  Boromir is simply a true neutral.

--
Christian Dechamplain|
(819) 563-8951       |
dechc00@dmi.usherb.ca|
----------------------
From: dan@cubmol.bio.columbia.edu (Daniel Zabetakis)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: The paths of the dead
Date: 23 Nov 92 23:36:45 GMT
Distribution: alt
Organization: Columbia University, Dept. of Biological Sciences.

In article <D40374W.92Nov23223328@kaira.hut.fi> d40374w@kaira.hut.fi (Tero Valkonen) writes:
>
>This is something that has bothered me for ages:
>
>In the paths of the dead, Aragorn & co encounter a skeleton that is
>still clutching the seams of a door he had desperately tried to open.
>Who was this man and what was behind that door? Has it been explained
>anywhere? 

   I think it was specifically meant to be unexplained. I helped to create
the image on the POTD. The fact that it stayed in your mind might be 
considered proof of this.

>
>And second, has the fate of the entwives been told about anywhere? I
>have only read LotR, Silmarillion, The unfinished tales and The hobbit.
>But I have read LotR over ten times so you could count me as a fan, ;-)
>
   I'm not aware of there being any additional writings about the ents.

DanZ



-- 
This article is for entertainment purposes only. Any facts, opinions,
narratives or ideas contained herein are not necessarily true, and do
not necessarily represent the views of any particular person.
From: mvoorhis@granite.WPI.EDU (Michael C Voorhis)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Re:Tom Bombadil
Date: 23 Nov 92 16:25:40
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute, Worcester, MA 01609-2280
NNTP-Posting-Host: granite.wpi.edu
In-reply-to: xexeo@dxcern.cern.ch's message of Mon, 23 Nov 1992 20:09:30 GMT

I doubt he's a Vala, I believe he is one of the maiar, like Gandalf or
Radagast or Saruman.  I'm pretty sure there...

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: Ari.Huttunen@hut.fi (Ari Huttunen)
Subject: Re: ANIMATED LotR
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 23:07:47 GMT

In article <1992Nov23.195255.29713@dxcern.cern.ch> xexeo@dxcern.cern.ch (Geraldo Xexeo) writes:

! THERE IS an animated LORD OF THE RINGS, by Ralph Bakshi, which covers
! only the first half of the trilogy. The second half was never made.

! Rankin and Bass did a completely independent animation of 
! THE RETURN OF THE KING and THE HOBBIT.

! If I remember another discussion, you CAN'T find the videos, due
! to the fact they don't exist. But I saw a pirate copy of LofR once... Can
! someone explain this more?

The Lord of the Rings by Ralph Bakshi at least exists. I've seen it,
and it wasn't a pirated copy. I would become *very* disappointed if
the Rankin&Bass movies weren't available on video. Tell me it isn't true.

/-----------------------------------------------------------------------\
| Now a question: Where can I mail-order the above mentioned animations |
| on video in VHS PAL format, with English speech and *no* *text*???    |
\-----------------------------------------------------------------------/

I can find the Bakshi's animation, but it would be censored (?) 
and it would have Finnish text, and I don't want that. So, PLEASE,
tell me where I can get those (or at least the Bakshi).

As for this newsgroup, I'm glad it got such a warm welcome. Be warned
though, that some sysadmins don't like newsgroups that haven't been
properly discussed of in alt.config. One such sysadmin sent me mail
and refused to create alt.fan.tolkien in his system.

Death to the anti-anarchist sysadmins...;-)

...............................................................................
Ari Huttunen				 Darth Vader sleeps with a Teddywookie.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: Ari.Huttunen@hut.fi (Ari Huttunen)
Subject: Re: Tom Bombadil
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
	<1992Nov23.073036.28220@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM>
	<1992Nov23.131058.16651@lgc.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 23:55:21 GMT

In article <1992Nov23.131058.16651@lgc.com> mbs@zycor.lgc.com (Matt Shostak) writes:

! What's the deal with Tom Bombadil?  I never quite figured out his place
! in the story, or even his place in the mythology, and every time I read
! the books the section where the hobbits are with Bombadil seems out of 
! place, as if Tolkien didn't know where he wanted to go with the narrative.

I think that the problem here is that you are trying to fit everything
into one logical whole. Basically I see Tolkien's works as myths that were
told by people of Middle-Earth long after the original happenings. Bilbo,
Frodo and Sam wrote the Red Book of Westmarch. You know what's in it so
nothing more of that, but the original Red Book was lost. The Red Book
that Professor Tolkien used was a copy of Thain's Book and and contained
annotations and corrections by the scholars of Gondor, and many generations
of hobbits. Is it a wonder if there are some errors? (Not hinting that
Bombadil is such an error, of course.)

Besides, there are other creatures in Middle-Earth that seem to be
'outside' the powers of Valar. Gandalf hints at meeting these at
the deepest dungeons of Moria, while fighting Balrog. 

It is this richness that is one of the strengths of Tolkien's works.
Everything doesn't have to be a logical part of something. (This isn't
something Mr. Spock would understand.) And because of this richness,
we cannot talk about one person being 'lawful good' or some other AD&D
character type. So how about forgetting the AD&D stuff when talking 
about Middle-Earth?

...............................................................................
Ari Huttunen				 Darth Vader sleeps with a Teddywookie.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: johnsd2@jec328.its.rpi.edu.its1 (Daniel Norman Johnson)
Subject: Re: The paths of the dead
Reply-To: johnsd2@jec328.its.rpi.edu.its1
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 03:59:14 GMT

In article 92Nov23223328@kaira.hut.fi, d40374w@kaira.hut.fi (Tero Valkonen) writes:
>
>This is something that has bothered me for ages:
>
>In the paths of the dead, Aragorn & co encounter a skeleton that is
>still clutching the seams of a door he had desperately tried to open.
>Who was this man and what was behind that door? Has it been explained
>anywhere? 
>The atmosphere of the paths of the dead was so eerie and interesting
>that this incident still haunts (an appropriate word, eh? <grin>) my
>mind every now and then. 

I dont have my LotR with me now, so I cant check but I think this info
is present in the appendix somewhere. I believe that guy is one of
the Rohirrim, connected with the building of the hall (whatsisname);
maybe Brego? Anyway I recall that it is told how the heir to the
throne of Rohan boasted that he would pass that way, but when he went
up there there was this old gent sitting there, who belched forth
a prophecy (basically, nobody goes this way until xyz) and died. But
Brego (?) goes anyway, and does not return. That perhaps is him.

[deletia- entwives]
---
			- Dan Johnson
And God said "Jeeze, this is dull"... and it *WAS* dull. Genesis 0:0

These opinions have had all identifiying marks removed, and are untraceable.
You'll never know whose they are.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: watson@sce.carleton.ca (Stephen Watson)
Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings - the movie?
Organization: Carleton University
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 22:26:28 GMT

narayan@mipgsun.mipg.upenn.edu (T. K. Narayan  student 09-11-91 ) writes:


>	I heard sometime ago that an animated version of Lord of the 
>Rings had been released a few years ago. I have tried to lay my hands

Yes, it was in the late 70's I believe, by Ralph Bakshi. But it only
takes the Ring Bearer as far as the end of Fellowship of the Ring (my
second abbreviation: FoR) and the rest of the party not too much farther into
the Two Towers (TTT? T2T?)
--
==Steve Watson: watson@sce.carleton.ca===Carleton University, Ottawa, Ontario==
| The above is the output of a 7th-order Markovian analysis of all posts on   |
| this group for the past month.  Not only is it not Carleton's opinion, it's |
| not even *my* opinion: it's really just a mish-mash of all YOUR opinions!   |
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: s13989bc@UMASSD.EDU
Subject: Re: Silmarillion
Reply-To: s13989bc@UMASSD.EDU
Organization: UMASS DARTMOUTH, NO. DARTMOUTH, MA.
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 23:15:01 GMT

 The Silmarillion is quite worth the money, time, and effort. It is a
comprehensive detailing on how Middle Earth came into being. Any Tolkien
fan who has not read it is not a Tolkien fan. 
		                            Sign me,
			                     A little hobbit with a red door.
                                           ( no I'm not Bilbo o' the green
                                              door, I'm his neighbor)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: ctatum@eng.clemson.edu (charles tatum)
Subject: Announcement!!
Reply-To: ctatum@eng.clemson.edu
Organization: College of Engineering, Clemson Univ.
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 03:41:43 GMT

Fellow Readers,
   I feel that the Time and Place for this announcement have come at last.
   I have made extensive research over the past three years, and have compiled
a large listing of the roots to the languages used by Tolkien. Although it is still
lacking in many ways, I feel that I should offer it. It's about 18 pages long right
now, and my notes section is as yet incomplete. I have included any and all
references as I could to the language each root is from (Quenya, Khuzdul, Sindarin,
&c.)  Please send me email concerning this, and I will either post it and/or email
you a copy.
    Also, for all interested: the Cirth runes are simply an adaptation of old Norse runes.
I have a full translation of these characters for all interested. I have done the same for
the Angerthas (later version of the Cirth) and offer the same. Anyone who has done
any research on the Tengwar, please email me; I'd like to get in touch with you. I've reached
a stumbling block in my research and would like to discuss possibilities of furthering
each other's work by exchange of information.
   Yes, Tolkien used to be an obsession of mine, but now I am called in other directions
and respect any time I have that I can seriously discuss Tolkien with another "fan."
---
Charles
----
+--------------+----------------------------------------+
|  The Wizard  |  email: ctatum@eng.clemson.edu         |
+-------------------------------------------------------+      
| Charles Tatum, Jr.   | My opinions are my own.
+----------------------+


Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: nahigian@athena.mit.edu (Gabriel H Nahigian)
Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings - the movie?
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1992 01:45:33 GMT

"The Lord of the Rings" covers the trilogy up to the end of Book III (the first
half of "The Two Towers."   I had the (mis)fortune to see the movie when I was
about 12 years old.  As you may have guessed, I was quite disappointed in it. 
The most impressive part of the movie to me was the extent to which somebody was
able to ruin one of the best pieces of literature in the history of the world.
(Okay, so I'm biased.  But just a little.)  "The Return of the King" is covered
in a different movie, which I saw on TV in the early 1980's.  This was better
than "Lord," but still did not live up to my ideal vision of the trilogy.

All this is, of course, totally beside the point.  Feel free to watch it if you
want to.  Interpretation of any work of literature is to some extent a personal
thing, so the movie may be more to your liking than it was to mine.

I didn't like the animation of "The Hobbit" all that much, either.

Gabe (nahigian@athena.mit.edu)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: ewill@hppcb27.mentorg.com (Eric Williams @ PCB x5577)
Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings - the movie?
Originator: ewill@hppcb27
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 23:51:30 GMT
Organization: Mentor Graphics 
Keywords: 
Followup-To: 


I do seem to remember an animation on TV some years back -- It ended
in a very silly manner (Frodo threw the ring into a volcano; Gandalf (?)
throwing his sword into the air).

I also very dimly remember another one...

Any clues, netters?
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: smith@sctc.com (Rick Smith)
Subject: Re: Bored Of The Rings (Re: Looking for deluxe...)
Organization: SCTC
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 21:46:11 GMT

A classic creation of the Harvard Lampoon.

I particularly remember the opening page of the paperback, which of
course includes a snippet of the novel to catch the reader's attention.
It portrays Frodo being seduced by an Elf-maiden who's obviously using
her charms to steal the Ring. The best part is the way they work that
into the plot ... :->
From: mozart@coos.dartmouth.edu (Sting)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Boromir
Date: 23 Nov 92 19:02:42 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH

In <1992Nov23.145700.11860@dxcern.cern.ch> xexeo@dxcern.cern.ch (Geraldo Xexeo) writes:

>I think Boromir is NOT a lawfull good character as others in the 
>Company of the Ring. Since the meeting in Eldond's house Boromir
>thinks in dealing with the powers of the Ring, so it is clear that
>he is tempted by the power the Ring offers without the intervention
>of the Ring. But, there is the dream issue. Maybe the dream of
>(Boromir himself?) was already a call from the Ring.


(I don't believe I'm about to get into a discussion of alignments.  Someone
 please kick me?)

If anything, Boromir, like his ancestors of the race of Numenor, is strongly 
lawful, but of neutral morals if anything.  He is often described as
"strong, proud, terrible and fair," which clearly reflects what could be 
called a "lawful" ethical pattern.  Now in the context of the story, he is
clearly on the side of Good, but in comparison to Aragorn or Gandalf's brother
Radigast, he is much more 'neutral', if we're using these sorts of moral
measurements.

You'll remember, of course, that the reason boromir was tempted by the Ring
was that it offered him a chance to overthrow the Dark Lord, which he wanted
as a proud member of his race, but he was overcome by its power and turned
to evil _deeds_, though not evil _nature_.


-Sting

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael J. Fromberger
Consultant:  Computer Resource Center / Consultants' Office
Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
CRC: (603) 646-2626  CONS: (603) 646-3417  HOME: (603) 643-5716
Sting@Dartmouth.EDU / mozart@coos.dartmouth.edu / 69224f@d1
  all requests granted - all grants requested!
"The trouble with marrying your mistress is that you create
 a job vacancy ... "
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: gandalf@chopin.udel.edu (Louis E. Keiner)
Subject: Re: Bored of the Rings
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 23:47:42 GMT

"Bored of the Rings" by the Harvard Lampoon
copyright 1969...........

A truly amazing book......my sides still hurt years after first
reading it........

Lou

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: johng@lucid.com (John Gregory)
Subject: Re: Lord of the Rings - the movie?
Reply-To: johng@lucid.com (John Gregory)
Organization: Lucid, Inc.
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 92 23:18:36 GMT

In article <1992Nov23.213050.15140@dragon.acadiau.ca>, 861033h@dragon.acadiau.ca (Michael S. Hogan) writes:
|> 890554h@dragon.acadiau.ca (Andrew Hoogerwerf) writes:
|> 
|> >It was great, I mean the animation was fantastic, Gollum was perfect, The
|> >battles were a masterpiece . The only problem was that the version I saw
|> >ended halfway through The Two Towers, if anyone knows if there is a part two to
|> >this movie could you please inform me.
|> 
|> I think the name of the second part is "Return of the King".
|> 
|> I saw it last summer and found it to be marginally better than the original.
|> 
|> -- 
|> ******************************************************************************* 
|>       Michael S. Hogan             *    *    Jodrey School of Computer Science 
|> Michael.Hogan@dragon.AcadiaU.CA    *    *    Acadia University, Wolfville, N.S.
|> *******************************************************************************


No. No. No.

The Lord of the Ring by Ralph Bashki (Fritz the Cat, Cool World et al) only covered
the first 1/2 of the trilogy. He spent 3 Million $$ making it (at the time a big chunk
of change for an animation "they used to say 'cartoon'"). They didn't make enough $$
to make a business case for part 2.   There also would be some continuity issues that
would half to be addressed somehow (what description of the Tower of Isengaard did
he use?) 

The animated version of The Hobbit was made by Mr. X.  Who later did the
"Return of the King".  Both for TV--both sucked.

(what's wrong with the 2nd half of the second book we wonders? Yes, we wonders!)


I saw TLotR the first day it came out too.  My impressions at the time was that 
it was a good (adequate) summary of the story but that you never got the sense
of the enormity of the conquest/travel/danger/etc that the books gave you.  I 
was also pleased that they skipped Bombadil (a mixture of groans and cheers emitted
from the crowd). I thought the sureal treatment of the chase of Frodo by the Nazgul
was good. However, overall I think Bashki dropped the ball. ESPECIALLY once the 
word got around it was only half the story--I remember the hearing people say that
they would wait for part two and see them together (of course we were poor college
students at Berkeley then).
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU (James Alexander Chokey)
Subject: Re: Re:Tom Bombadil
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 92 03:11:32 GMT

In article <98942@netnews.upenn.edu> schoi@ccat.sas.upenn.edu (Samuel Choi) writes:
>>xexeo@dxcern.cern.ch (Geraldo Xexeo) writes:
>>Tom is Valar, as far as I am informed.I will try to check the
>>information at home.
>
>There's no way Tom is a Valar . . . or is that that plural? . . . in which case
>there's no way he's a Vala.  There're only, what, 9, Valar?  Manwe being the
>head honcho, then Melkor, and Umlo . . . and then I don't remember.
>
>I've heard someone say that that he's one of the maiar . . . don't know where
>that info's from . . .
>

	All of this is pure speculation that isn't based on anything in any
of Tolkien's texts.  True, lots of Tolkien fans and attempted critics have
attempted to work Bombadil into the Valar-Maiar hierarchy, but they are at
a great loss to find any hints in Tolkien's writings to support the various
positions they have taken. 
	Personally, I think Bombadil is somewhat of an "aberration" in any
attempt to create a totalizing view of Middle-earth.  Tolkien once wrote of
Bombadil, (although he was speaking about the Bombadil of _The Adventures of
Tom Bombadil_), that he meant him to personify the landscape of the English Midlands. I think a lot of that carries over into the Bombadil of LOTR as well--  
he does seem to be intimately bound to the landscape of the Old Forest and
the Barrow-downs, to the degree that he seems to have virtually unlimited
power within that space, but does not seem to journey beyond it.  He seems, in
other words, to be more of a spirit of a place, than of a grand Silmarillion-
esque hierarchy of godlike/angelic beings. 
	The same, I add, could be said of his wife Goldberry, who is said to
be the daughter of the River Withywindle.  She seems to be tied to a specific
local (and even a specific geographical feature), rather than to a some great
family of semi-divine entities.
	I think that the fact that Tom and Goldberry show little or no 
interest in the affairs of Middle-earth--  the wars, the Ring, or what have
you--  outside of their own domain seems to lend support to this interpreation.

	--  Jim C. <jchokey@leland.stanford.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien