HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lawson@acuson.com (Drew Lawson)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
Subject: Name Calling (Re: Clinton, Gore, and the End of the Automobile Age)
Date: 24 Jul 92 14:48:29 GMT
Reply-To: lawson@acuson.com (Drew Lawson)
Organization: ACUSON, Mountain View, CA

In article <92205.59891.J056600@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM>
	J056600@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM writes:

>>The last line says it all. What can we expect from someone who works for one
>>of the major military contractors?
>
>Ahh...resorting to personal attacks, and guilt by association on my part.  I


>But unfortunately,
>environmentalism has become the new home for socialism in America.  Too many
>socialists and Marxists are using the environment as an excuse to implement
>their agendas.

Is it just me, or is anyone else getting tired of the resorting to "red
menace" retoric in the discussion of environmental issues?  This single
post complains about name calling and then uses it.  Face it:  EVERYONE
has an agenda.  Some are more flexible than others.  Some are more
visible than others.  The issue is coordinating a lot of varying
priorities.


Additionally:
>Remember Dioxin?  How about Love Canal?  About as harmful as a mosquito bite,

Dioxin is as harmful as a mosquito bite?  What species are you?

-- 
Drew Lawson                      If you're not part of the solution,
lawson@acuson.com                you're part of the precipitate
Xref: sparky ba.transportation:1827 rec.railroad:5995
From: jimj@cleanplate.EBay.Sun.COM (James D. Jones)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation,rec.railroad
Subject: Re: Santa Cruz-San Jose rail line revival?
Keywords: santa cruz suntan special rail line revival study diridon
Date: 28 Jul 92 17:21:57 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mt. View, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: cleanplate.ebay.sun.com

In article <1992Jul22.214517.16912@ntmtv> adrian@ntmtv.UUCP (Adrian Brandt) writes:
<
<He also informs me that there is a private conern called Eccles & Eastern
<Railroad that is interested in rebuilding the line to haul aggregates
<(from the quarries) & tourists.  They are investigating whether or not it
<would make sense and whether they can get investors.  Apparently Eccles &
<Eastern RR thinks they might be able make money doing this.
<
<This makes restoration of the line more likely since capital and
<operating costs can be spread over passenger (tourist & commuter) and
<freight operations.  I'm flabbergasted that a private concern might
<restore the line independent of the government agencies because they
<think it might be profitable.  I just assumed the capital cost of
<re-building the right of way would be prohibitive without substantial
<government money ...

I think these guys have a lot of dreams and no cash to speak of.  A few
months back there was some kind of real estate auction  for a piece
of land that was part of the old right-of-way.  E&E bid for it, but didn't
come anywhere close to the final sale price.  The newspaper article on
the auction was the only publicity I've ever seen about this outfit.
From: lazzaro@boom.CS.Berkeley.EDU (John Lazzaro)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
Subject: Re: SC County Transit Cutbacks in store
Date: 31 Jul 92 02:41:24 GMT
Organization: University of California at Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: boom.cs.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Jul30.234754.11767@Veritas.COM> joshua@Veritas.COM (Joshua Levy) writes:
>
>I'm sure these didn't help, but the real reason is the huge subsidy
>that the bus system needs.  Every time you pay $1 to ride a bus, the
>county pays $9.  This 900 % subsidy is the largest of any local mass
>transit system.  
>

How far off is this from systems like MUNI and AC transit? I know BART
is about 50% sales tax, 50% fares (for operating cost), and they haven't
had a fare increase in 7 years (none planned for this year either,
according to the summer 92 BART times). 
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
From: mjvande@pbhye.PacBell.COM (Mike Vandeman)
Subject: Re: Clinton, Gore, and the End of the Automobile Age
Reply-To: mjvande@PacBell.COM (Mike Vandeman)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 22:07:01 GMT

--I was merely trying to refute Mr. Vandeman's obvious political agenda.  His
--recommendations are a recipe for socialism, plain and simple.  His brilliant
--use of hypocrisy was not lost on me.  If he's against subsidizing the auto,
--as he puts it, then he'd better be against *all* subsidies or he's either
--being hypocritical or *extremely* selfish.
 
You are out in left field somewhere. I don't have a political agenda. I have
an ENVIRONMENTAL agenda, which is, simply, clean air. And there's no hypocracy;
I believe in subsidizing some things (libraries, transit, & other things that
benefit everyone, rich & poor) & not others (private auto transport, which
benefits no one, really). By the way, I don't know what socialism is, nor do
I care.

--I don't use my car much, but if I want to use it, then dammit, get the hell
--out of my way.
 
I don't use my atomic bombs, but if I want to use them, then, dammit, get the
hell out of my way.

-	Every time people drive, they use public money and pollute an environ-
-mant shared by all.  In light of these facts, it strikes me as self-centered
-to demand that the people supplying the public good "get the hell out of my
-way," no matter how infrequently I drive.
 
Amen.
Xref: sparky ba.transportation:1839 ca.environment:770 alt.activism:13698
From: bm@bike2work.Eng.Sun.COM (Bill Michel)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation,ca.environment,alt.activism
Subject: Discussion of Bay Area transportation issues
Date: 29 Jul 1992 23:32:39 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.  Mt. View, Ca.
Distribution: ba
Reply-To: bm@bike2work.Eng.Sun.COM (Bill Michel)
NNTP-Posting-Host: bike2work

What        : Discussion of Bay Area transportation issues with 
			  Local Sierra Club Transportation Subcommittee 
			  Co-Chairs Irvin Dawid & Michael Keenly

When        : Monday, August 10th, 6:30 p.m.

Where       : Foothill College Radio Station KFJC's (89.7 fm)
			  Public Affairs Show, *Thoughtline*, 
			  with Host Robert Emmett 
--
Bill Michel			
bm@eng.sun.com		These views are my own, not Sun's.
From: peirce@outpost.SF-Bay.org (Michael Peirce)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
Subject: Re: Name Calling (Re: Clinton, Gore, and the End of the Automobile Age)
Date: 25 Jul 92 02:43:30 GMT
Reply-To: peirce@outpost.SF-Bay.org (Michael Peirce)
Organization: Peirce Software
X-Mailer: uAccess - Macintosh Release: 1.5v4


In article <1992Jul24.144829.16703@acuson.com> (ba.transportation), lawson@acuson.com (Drew Lawson) writes:
> In article <92205.59891.J056600@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM>
> 	J056600@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM writes:
> 
> >>The last line says it all. What can we expect from someone who works for one
> >>of the major military contractors?
> >
> >Ahh...resorting to personal attacks, and guilt by association on my part.  I
> 
> 
> >But unfortunately,
> >environmentalism has become the new home for socialism in America.  Too many
> >socialists and Marxists are using the environment as an excuse to implement
> >their agendas.
> 
> Is it just me, or is anyone else getting tired of the resorting to "red
> menace" retoric in the discussion of environmental issues?  This single
> post complains about name calling and then uses it.  Face it:  EVERYONE
> has an agenda.  Some are more flexible than others.  Some are more
> visible than others.  The issue is coordinating a lot of varying
> priorities.

I think the gentleman from from Lockheed made a number of good points.

I too think the environmental movement has been coopted by the left.
They seem to be much more interested in sensationalizing rather than
reasoned, science based facts.  

Take the alar scar for example.  Not only was it not anywhere the
crisis that the people crying wolf would have had us believe it did
a good deal of harm to apple farmers and school children.

--  Michael Peirce      --   peirce@outpost.SF-Bay.org
--  Peirce Software     --   Suite 301, 719 Hibiscus Place
--                      --   San Jose, California USA 95117
--  Makers of...        --   voice: (408) 244-6554 fax: (408) 244-6882
--            SMOOTHIE  --   AppleLink: peirce & America Online: AFC Peirce
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
From: adrian@ntmtv.UUCP (Adrian Brandt)
Subject: Re: Third rail without fences (Was: San Mateo County BART)
Keywords: third rail bart safety right of way
Organization: Northern Telecom Inc, Mountain View, CA
Distribution: ba
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 17:05:45 GMT

In article <14ge9lINN8a2@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>, fuzzface@cats.ucsc.edu (Aaron Priven) writes:
|> It seems to me that the last time I read Interurban Press's book on
|> the Market Street Railway (or maybe their Muni book, it was a while
|> ago) there was some story about a political fight to make all the
|> streetcar operators use underground (and therefore safe) third rail
|> rather than catenary wire, so as to beautify the city.

|> So, to make a long story short, what happened to underground third
|> rail?  Is it still possible?

I don't know of its use anywhere, present or past.  Do you know if it
was ever used anywhere or was it only a political fight because some
streetcar-hostile folks were trying to kill the system off with what
sounds like a super-bizarre, problem-prone/unreliable, incompatible,
non-standard (untested?), high-capital & maintenance cost requirement?

I suppose it could be made to work in theory... after all, we've still
got operating cable cars, right?

-- 

Adrian Brandt (415) 940-2379
UUCP: ...!ames!ntmtv!adrian
ARPA: ntmtv!adrian@ames.arc.nasa.gov
Xref: sparky ba.transportation:1829 rec.bicycles:18870 ca.environment:766 alt.activism:13663
From: bm@bike2work.Eng.Sun.COM (Bill Michel)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation,rec.bicycles,ca.environment,alt.activism
Subject: Milbrae Ave/CalTrain grade separation design review
Date: 28 Jul 92 21:14:26 GMT
Reply-To: bm@bike2work.Eng.Sun.COM (Bill Michel)
Distribution: ba
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.  Mt. View, Ca.
NNTP-Posting-Host: bike2work

What: Milbrae Ave. grade separation design review
When: Tuesday, July 28, 7:30 p.m.
Where: Millbrae City Hall, 621 Magnolia Ave., Milbrae
	   (apprx. 5 blks north and 2 blocks west of the Milbrae CalTrain station,
			   also SamTrans 5L, 5M, or 101 exit Milbrae Ave west)

			   Brief Description:
			   The design of the Milbrae Ave/CalTrain grade separation will be reviewed
			   at the Millbrae city council meeting tonight. Due to a lobbying effort
			   by the San Mateo County Bikeways Committee the span is to include wide
			   curb lanes. A request was also made for a path underneath the bridge
			   to provide direct bike/ped access to the train but this was not favorably
			   received.

			   It would be helpful if a north county resident could attend
			   to insure that the wide lanes have not been cut from the design and to
			   insure that the weaving areas are designed to discourage cars from clipping
			   bikes at the bridge ends. Since the design is now 30% complete it is important
			   to get any comments in now before it gets much further along.
				
				Contact Phone: City Engineer (5) 259-2340
--
Bill Michel			
bm@eng.sun.com		These views are my own, not Sun's.
From: fuzzface@cats.ucsc.edu (Aaron Priven)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
Subject: Re: Clinton, Gore, and the End of the Automobile Age
Followup-To: alt.flame
Date: 21 Jul 1992 07:12:48 GMT
Organization: University of California, Santa Cruz (College Eight)
NNTP-Posting-Host: am.ucsc.edu


In article <92202.43773.J056600@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM> J056600@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM writes:
>Don't you mean "Re:  Towards creating a Socialist state?"
>...
>We can subsidize *your* political agenda and you think it will create 

It is amusing to hear someone from Lockheed complain that other
peoples' political agendas will create more jobs.

 =Aaron=
-- 
Aaron Priven, aaronrp@ucscb.ucsc.edu or fuzzface@cats.ucsc.edu
        "Men make history, but they do not do so under 
         conditions of their own choosing." -- Karl Marx
Xref: sparky ba.transportation:1748 ba.general:3118
From: rqd@cypress.com (Rick Donnelly/VDSP)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation,ba.general
Subject: Re: Plane tickets
Date: 23 Jul 92 02:45:07 GMT
Distribution: ba
Organization: Cypress Semiconductor/San Jose, CA
Originator: rqd@kahuna


I have no experience with discount travel agents on domestic flights, but
I do have experience with such "lower-than-the-lowest-fare" tickets on
international flights, and I suspect that for domestic flights something
similar happens.

The agencies that sell these discount tickets are called "bucket shops".
Airlines offer them higher-than-normal commissions (sometimes over 50% of
the ticket price!) in order to sell blocks of tickets that otherwise
probably wouldn't sell.  The "bucket shop" sells you the ticket at its face
value and then rebates part of the commission to you, either as an immediate
credit to your credit card, as a check sent to you right away, or as a check
sent to you when the "bucket shop" receives its commission from the airline,
which can take as long as a couple of months.  This arrangement is of ques-
tionable legality, but no one complains, since it's a good deal for the
airline (they sell seats that would otherwise be empty), for the "bucket
shop" (they sell lots more tickets), and for the passenger (who gets a good
deal on a plane ticket).

The ticket is issued in your name.

Problems rarely occur with such arrangements.  I know of several people who
have used "bucket shops"; none had problems.  To be on the safe side, how-
ever, you may wish to pay by credit card.

I have also heard that in some cases, agencies actually buy a block of
tickets themselves direct from the airline and then resell them.  In ex-
change for a guarantee that a flight will be fully booked, the airline
accepts a lower ticket price.  I have no experience with this sort of
arrangement, however.

The prices quoted in the ads are generally going to be for flights at the
least popular times.  You probably will not get the price quoted for when
YOU want to fly, but you will commonly get discounts of 15 - 20% off the
"lowest" fare, frequently with fewer restrictions as well.

Surprisingly, I have generally found that "bucket shops" give BETTER
service than neighborhood travel agents.  The people that staff them are
more knowledgeable and will frequently be able to book accommodations, etc.,
in places that neighborhood travel agents haven't even HEARD of!

My advice?  Call several of the discount agents.  Deal with one that seems
to provide good service for your needs along with a low fare.

Rick Donnelly                       My opinions, not Cypress's.
rqd@cypress.com or ...!uunet.uu.net!decwrl!cypress!rqd
From: hill@madrone.eecs.ucdavis.edu (Rich Hill)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
Subject: Re: Santa Cruz-San Jose CalTrain?
Date: 21 Jul 92 17:58:01 GMT
Distribution: ba
Organization: U.C. Davis - Department of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science

In article <1992Jul21.163537.1784@ntmtv> adrian@ntmtv.UUCP (Adrian Brandt) writes:
>In article <15354@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu>, hill@madrone.eecs.ucdavis.edu (Rich Hill) writes:
>|> I think that in the later days (post 1940) the Sun Tan Specials did run
>|> through Watsonville Junction.  A storm in 1940 closed "the hill" for good.
>
>I've heard repeatedly that some branch of the military used one or more
>of the tunnels for blasting practice.  Another version of the story goes
>that the tunnels were blasted for fear that they would assist a Japanese
>invasion to come through the hills and into the valley (or some such
>nonsense).
>
One of the smaller tunnels is used as some sort of vault to protect documents,
etc. in case of nuclear attack.  I have also heard the story about the tunnels
being blasted because of fear of the Japanese.  Seems pretty far-fetched.
The summit tunnel is blocked about a hundred feet in but somehow the fact that
this is almost the exact location at which the San Andreas fault crosses the
line leads me to believe that mother nature had more to do with this than 
some guy afraid of the Japanese.  The Laurel-Glenwood tunnel is bricked up
(on both sides, I believe.  Definitely on the Glenwwod side).  The one piece
that supposedly still goes for quite a way (I've seen pictures and know someone
who has been in it (but forgot how he got there - darn it!)) is the south
end of the summit tunnel.  This is the one that is not marked on the topo
maps and is only accesible by crossing private property (not a real good idea
in some parts of the Santa Cruz Mountains!).  Last time I was up there a good
deal of destruction (downed trees, condemned houses, etc) was evident from the
Loma Prieta earthquake.  Who knows what happened to the tunnel.  The only way
to find this thing is to assume it is at the same elevation as Laurel and follow
the contour lines.  Unfortunately, there is no grade to follow because the 
tracks seem to have crossed a large ravine/canyon/whatever between Laurel 
and the tunnel portal (some of the trestle timbers (on the south side - near
Laurel) can still be seen).

>|> >You can still clearly see parts of the old right of way in the canyon
>|> >next to the highway and below the dam.  I don't know the route of
>|> >the line after it "rams" into the foot of the then-non-existant dam. 
>|> 
>|> Actually, it's pretty easy to follow it from this point.  It returns
>|> above the water somewhere along the south side of Lexington Reservoir
>|> (the opposite side from rt. 17) and a water pipe uses an old wood
>|> trestle.
>
>Getting around (up & over) Lexington dam will be interesting if & when
>this line is rebuilt...
>

Yeah, the tracks through that part might have to be a little steeper than 
the original alignment :)

-Rich Hill
From: jordan@IMSI.COM (Jordan Hayes)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
Subject: Re:  East Bay -> Silicon Valley commute
Date: 22 Jul 92 20:21:41 GMT
Organization: Investment Management Services Inc., NYC

Aaron Priven <fuzzface@cats.ucsc.edu> writes:

	I can really see great advantage in using existing rail lines
	on the outer fringes of the metropolis that can connect
	directly to the "real" transit system.  I think it is a real
	shame that BART can't do this.

Doesn't the Capitol -> Richmond BART connection count?  By the way,
there's a good example of a real connection that's useful.  Shouldn't
CalTrain -> BART/MUNI do the same in San Francisco?  BART/Richmond
looks as good as Penn Station in NYC or Union Station in Washington, in
that it gives a long{,er}-distance train passenger a good opportunity
to join the local system.  I can't believe that more people don't get
off Amtrak at Richmond and take BART into San Francisco instead of
using the bus from Oakland.

	Both CalTrain and BART are primarily commuter railroads.

I disagree.  BART is much more like one of the old IND/BMT/IRT systems
in NYC.  That is, it's primarily an interurban subway.  Because of its
hours, BART is very useful outside of "commuter" times.  Because of
where it goes, there's lots of traffic in both directions.  Sure,
there's a crush to San Francisco in the morning, but there's plenty of
San Francisco -> East Bay traffic as well.

Final note: it's been quite a number of years since the various NYC
systems were put together under one organization, and people transfer
between them without even thinking about which one is which anymore.
People joked earlier about putting a BART sticker on CalTrain, but if
it would serve to unite the systems like LIRR/Metro North/NYC Subway,
I'd be all for it ...

/jordan
From: lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
Subject: Re: Slant-nosed BART & "California Cars"
Date: 31 Jul 92 17:14:56 GMT
Organization: LLNL

In article <9207311535.AA00360@asia.fai.com> vaughnw@asia.fai.com (Vaughn Wolffe) writes:
>
>>From: gnn@wsl.dec.com (George Neville-Neil)

:|: CalTrain cars are already cheaper and carry twice as many seats.

::Bzzzt.  CalTrain commuter cars cost 1.75M and BART costs 1.6M.  CalTrain
::cars carry more people but the BART cars are more complex since
::they contain controls and motors in each car.  

:Only the cab cars cost 1.75M the trailer cars cost 1.5M. The complexity
:of a bad design just increases operating costs. In either case it is
:still cheaper for a CalTrain trainset than a BART one with the same
:carrying capacity.

	This omits the cost of CalTrain locomotives. BART cars are
self-propelled. CalTrain cars are not.

	This creates an extra cost per car that may be calculated by
distributing the cost of a locomotive among all the passenger cars of
a train.

	So BART and CalTrain come out about even.
From: vaughnw@asia.fai.com (Vaughn Wolffe)
Newsgroups: ba.transportation
Subject: Re: Slant-nosed BART & "California Cars"
Date: 22 Jul 92 00:34:08 GMT


>From: jordan@IMSI.COM (Jordan Hayes)
>Great!  BART costs 10 times what CalTrain does!

Operating costs are roughly 7 times  219/29.


>BART carries 10 times the number of passengers CalTrain does!


Slightly more than 10 times  247,000/23,000.


Cost considerations are not what is limiting CalTrain. They 
are what is limiting BART.


	For the cost of extending PORKBART down the Peninsula we could
	extend the upgraded version of CalTrain around the bay to
	Sacramento and to Montery while at the same time extending at
	least the CalTrain level of service over the Altamont Pass and
	to Pittsburg/Antioch.

>Does ths include the connection to BART in San Francisco?


Yes


   Vaughn Wolffe        vaughnw@hadar.fai.com
Newsgroups: ba.transportation