HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Tom Christiansen <tchrist@convex.COM>
Subject: Re: English English versus *American* English
Originator: tchrist@convex.convex.com
Reply-To: tchrist@convex.COM (Tom Christiansen)
Organization: CONVEX Realtime Development, Colorado Springs, CO
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 16:22:34 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

From the keyboard of mmmirash@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar Mukund Mirashi):
:In article <1992Jul29.235833.6853@news.eng.convex.com> tchrist@convex.COM (Tom Christiansen) writes:
:>From the keyboard of mmmirash@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar Mukund Mirashi):
:>> Besides I usually never look at what country, race, etc. an individual
:>> belongs to, when I make friends. The same would hold true if I ever found
:>> myself in the position of hiring a new worker in the US. I would evaluate
:>> him for his qualities, not for his nationality, race. etc.
:>
:>Notice MMM didn't name gender as something not to discrimate against, and
:>has chosen to evaluate HIM for HIS qualities.  Women, don your veils!
:>
:>--tom
:      
:There are so many discriminating factors, that it would be impossible to
:state all of them. That is why I chose to use "etc.". For your clarification
:"etc." contains
:1. Gender
:2. Religion
:3. Caste
:4. Sub caste
:5. native tongue spoken
:6. economic background
:7. State
:8. County
:9. City
:10. Suburb
:11. need I go on?
:     
:       I meant "his", in the general sense (as is used frequently) ,
:and that includes "her" too. 
:


-- 
"GUIs normally make it simple to accomplish simple actions and impossible
to accomplish complex actions."   --Doug Gwyn  (22/Jun/91 in comp.unix.wizards)

     Tom Christiansen           tchrist@convex.com      convex!tchrist
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 23:25:24 -0400 
From: "Benjamin D. Lukoff" <bl2m+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: "Native Speakers of English"

mmmirash@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar Mukund Mirashi) wrote:

>Let me repeat...you are NOT native speakers of the language.....maybe
>some (not all) of your forefathers were....but their predecessors seem
to >have contorted it.

You're Indian, right, Mandar? Well, neither are YOU a native speaker of
the language, if that's how you want to go about it. I suppose the Irish
aren't native speakers of the language either.....neither are the Welsh
or the Scots......since it's ENGLISH after all.

I am certainly a native speaker of the English language.

Ben Lukoff
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: bf455@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bonita Kale)
Subject: Re: anymore
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 12:14:23 GMT




In a previous article, baron@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Dennis Baron) says:

>Anymore w.o. the negative constraint (as it is usually
>referred to) 
>...
>does not pattern according to education or social status.


Are you sure about this?  I certainly have the impression that a bank
president whose mother was also a bank president would be unlikely to use
it.  But a farmer or a child of farmers, or a bus driver, would.

Also, I think it's white.  Has anyone here heard black people use it?

Bonita Kale
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: mmmirash@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar Mukund Mirashi)
Subject: Re: English English versus *American* English
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 05:25:49 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.002707.9724@news.eng.convex.com> tchrist@convex.COM (Tom Christiansen) writes:
>Hey, guys, did you know that only people residing in Spain speak Spanish?
>After all, those silly Mexicans still have archaic x's in that country's
>name, a name they mangled from that lovely spelling employed by the only
>true speakers, Spaniards, which is of course "Mejico". :-)
>
>Sorry, I don't buy it.
>
>--tom
>-- 
>    Tom Christiansen      tchrist@convex.com      convex!tchrist

Only time will open your eyes.....

Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Gabe M Wiener)
Subject: Re: "need"
Reply-To: gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Gabe M Wiener)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 03:47:01 GMT

In article <1992Jul26.013151.25009@news.eng.convex.com> tchrist@convex.COM (Tom Christiansen) writes:

>Oh, but I really don't think so.  The 'be' is the infinitive, and the
>'need' now appears to me to be a modal.  Indeed, other than modals, I do
>not believe there exist [my soul yearns for the subjunctive for that verb]
>defective English verbs lacking a distinction between being singular and
>being plural.  Compare this with 'should' in place of 'need', and note
>how similar the cases actually are.

But "be" is very often used as a subjunctive, and its congation is
indeed defective (not in the true Latin sense of defectiveness, but
irregular enough for our purposes)

Try these:

	It is important that they be here.
	It is important that he be here.
	It is important that I be here.


--
Gabe Wiener - Columbia Univ.     "This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings 
gmw1@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu       to be seriously considered as a means of 
N2GPZ in ham radio circles        communication. The device is inherently of
72355,1226 on CI$                 no value to us." -Western Union memo, 1877
From: dand@buscard.fidonet.org (Dan Davidson)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: The airwaves
Date: 21 Jul 92 20:42:29 GMT
X-Maildoor: WaflineMail 1.00r

All the problems with English usage don't surprise me, and shouldn't
surprise anybody, given the pervasive bad examples in both broadcast
and print media.

Advertisers appear to take pride in being ungrammatical.  The others
seem merely guilty of being ignorant of the stuff they work with.

It would be bad enough were the bad grammar the entire indictment.
They misspell, misuse and egregiously mispronounce words, too.  If
newsmen and newspersons, commentators (why not commenters?),
commercial announcers, lecturers, public speakers and politicians all
botch the language, what hope is there for all of us who never utter a
word?


... THINK! or thwim.
--- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10
                                                                                       
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: rolfe@dsuvax.dsu.edu (Tim Rolfe)
Subject: Re: The airwaves
Organization: Dakota State University
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 16:47:02 GMT

Hmmm.  I just noticed another inconsistency in our popular usage:
audible SOUND is carried on airwaves (oscillations in the air); the
broadcast media are "airwaves" only in the very last step; the
transmission is actually via the "etherwaves".
-- 
                                              --- Tim Rolfe
                                           rolfe@dsuvax.dsu.edu
                                            ROLFE@SDNET.BITNET
From: takoosma@utkvx1.utk.edu (Toby Koosman)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: one more follow-up on the great debate
Date: 31 Jul 92 17:00:00 GMT
Organization: University of Tennessee Computing Center
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

I wish y'all would quit changing the subject line so those of us who don't
want to follow this debate can quit pounding our "k" keys!

Toby Koosman
University of Tennessee   Knoxville, Tennessee  USA
Internet: koosman@utkvx.utk.edu     Bitnet: koosman@utkvx
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: padutton@wpi.WPI.EDU (Peter Alan Dutton)
Subject: Re: English English versus *American* English
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 13:27:35 GMT

In article <1992Jul30.040428.24810@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu> mmmirash@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar Mukund Mirashi) writes:

>
>      I DID NOT confuse the two concpets. Only the residents of England
>can be considered as the native speakers of the language. I too grew up
>with English as my first language. I too was exposed to it before 
>kindergarten (In India, before you are admitted to a school, you must
>pass an interview.....I learnt ABC even before I entered kindergarten).
>However I am NOT a native speaker of the language, no more than you.

Why? WHY? WHY? WHY?

You tend to make that assertion over and over again with no basis in FACT.
It's just your opinion, and one VERY FEW people share.

At least here in the US, many of us have been descended from Actual Honest-
To-Goodness We-Should-Thank-Our-Lucky-Stars Real-Live English-From-England
people, as opposed to you Indians who have no genetic commonality, and had
the language imposed on you. Maybe that's why you have such a hard time 
grasping the fact that many of us have the nerve to consider ourselves
native speakers. But you know what? We are. And so are you.

Perhaps we should start a movement to stop people in India and Pakistan
and other countries of the sort to stop using English at all. I mean,
they're all FOREIGNERS! We can't have anyone speaking OUR language unless
they can trace their ancestors back to the Mother Country.

And maybe you should read Chaucer or Shakespeare back in the "original"
English they were written in (funny how all the "original" speakers are
DEAD!!!), just to see how much spelling (AND pronunciation) has evolved.

Aghastly,
Peter
From: xiaofei@acsu.buffalo.edu (XiaoFei Wang)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: English English versus *American* English
Date: 29 Jul 92 21:41:10 GMT
Organization: Physics Dept, State U of New York at Buffalo, Buffalo, NY 14260

mmmirash@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar Mukund Mirashi) :
       Well then, can you tell me who on earth gave you chaps the 
       authority to change the spellings?

crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu (Lauren L. Crawford) :
       That's easy.  God.

I have to say the answer is wrong. The original poster questioned
who *on earth* gave "you people" the authority to change the spellings.


-- 
xiaofei@acsu.buffalo.edu | Subscribe Chinese Poem Exchange and Discussion List 
mail LISTSERV@UBVM.BITNET with "SUB CHPOEM-L 1st LastName" in the MESSAGE BODY
InterNet Address: UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU | Posting in UUENCODED GB and BIG5
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: baron@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Dennis Baron)
Subject: el nino
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 15:24:30 GMT

As with data, the handling of the definite or indefinite
articles of borrowed words sometimes makes us trip.

The El Nino is common enough.  What about the lariat (lariat
comes from la reata, so there is a reduplicated article), not
to mention all those words beginning with al- that come from
Arabic: algebra, alkali, algorithm, and etcetera (sic)?

Remember when the Renault 5 was sold in the US as the Le Car?

Of course redundancy is common in language, one way we have
of countering noise in the communication system.  One of the
most striking redundancies is the preservation of the distinct
singular present tense verb form for the 3rd person.  All of
the other persons and numbers, in the various tenses, in English, 
have eliminated the number redundancy between subject and verb.
Why, in many varieties of English, including the so-called 
standard, does it remain for 3 pers. sg. present?  Though it
defies logic, it must fill a need of some kind.

Oh yes, I forgot about (the) alligator.  Look it up!
-- 
Dennis Baron                                         debaron@uiuc.edu 
University of Illinois at Urbana                     217-333-2392
From: mmmirash@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar Mukund Mirashi)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: English English versus *American* English
Date: 30 Jul 92 05:35:54 GMT
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA

In article <SLAGLE.92Jul29185948@sgi417.msd.lmsc.lockheed.com> slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com writes:
>In article <84773@netnews.upenn.edu>, crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu (Lauren L. Crawford) writes:
>
>> In article <1992Jul29.200521.23765@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu> mmmirash@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (Mandar Mukund Mirashi) writes:
>
>>> All you Amercians out there....do not spoil the
>>>English language (in other words, lay off! Keep away!, etc.)
>
>> O.K.  Let's all speak French now.
>
>Shall we see if we can find interesting ways to 
>mutilate that one, too?  Let's start by changing
>all the "s" letters in "vous" to "z".
>--
>----
>Mark E. Slagle                                 PO Box 61059
>slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com                       Sunnyvale, CA   94088
>408-756-0895                                   USA

Mon Dieu!
From: donna@filly.calstate.edu (Morag ni Shabhain)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: Words that peeve me
Date: 23 Jul 92 23:58:18 GMT
Organization: California State University

La Brea Tar Pits 
(La Brea is Spanish for tar)

... but the one that astonished me was a noun turned into a verb, used by 
a telephone company representative, in discussing the problem with the 
company's phone bill, when told me he'd be DIALOG-ING with me about it 
soon !

- Donna
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: kcj@vulcan.anu.edu.au (Kate Juliff)
Subject: Use of generic terms that exclude women
Originator: kcj@vulcan.anu.edu.au
Organization: Australian National University, Canberra, Australia
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 01:26:10 GMT

Some time ago, someone posted an article with an extract from
a piece of work that used the word "white" where "men" would normally
appear, in order to illustrate the effect of using the word "men" to
include women.

Could anyone email me this?

Thanks in advance,

Kate


-- 
Kate Juliff                           | kcj@matilda.vut.edu.au
Victoria University                   |
P.O. BOX 14428,                       |
MELBOURNE MAIL CENTRE, AUSTRALIA 3000 |
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: American Heritage vs. Websters 9th
From: thompson@gumby.mgi.com
Date: 25 Jul 92 15:28:49 CDT
Organization: Management Graphics, Inc.

In article <SLAGLE.92Jul23135553@sgi417.msd.lmsc.lockheed.com>, slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com (Mark Slagle) writes:
> In article <1992Jul23.134358@IASTATE.EDU>, mcoffin@IASTATE.EDU (Marie Coffin) writes:
> 
>> My dictionary (Webster's Ninth New Collegiate), indicates that
>> the 'y' in polystyrene is 

[discussion of pronunciation deleted] 

> I rely on the American Heritage.  I have never liked the
> Webster's, and this is yet another reason.  Many of the

I've always like American Heritage, but my copy is twenty years old.
I know there is a much newer edition available, but I hesitate to
buy it because most of the reviews I've seen stress its "political
correctness", and I'm concerned that words have been deleted or
definitions re-written with more concern for PC than accuracy. I
suppose I can buy the new one for the new words and keep the old one
for the "real" definitions. 

Any comments?
From: maj@waikato.ac.nz
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: right time
Date: 25 Jul 92 20:29:17 +1200
Organization: University of Waikato, Hamilton, New Zealand

In article <1992Jul24.110112.7781@vax.oxford.ac.uk>, wilcox@vax.oxford.ac.uk writes:
> In article <SLAGLE.92Jul21232846@sgi417.msd.lmsc.lockheed.com>, slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com (Mark Slagle) writes:
>> In article <Brr6t4.83F@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>, baron@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Dennis Baron) writes:
>> 
>>> Neither expert opted for `a quarter till,' presumably because
>>> they considered it dialect (=South Midland).  But what's a
>>> well-intentioned consulter of usage experts to do in such a
>>> case?  
>> 
>> A quarter before seven.
> Or whatever sounds right to you. In this neck of the woods the 
> alternatives are "six forty-five" and "a quarter to seven." 
> Anything else is understood, but understood to be local dialect
> or foreign.
> 
[stuff deleted]

While we're talking about time, can we characterise the areas where
people say 'half seven' for 7:30  ?  Here in NZ I here it mainly from
people from the south of the South Island, which was settled in large
part from Scotland.

> Stephen Wilcox             |   Remember what happened to the dinosaurs!
> wilcox@maths.oxford.ac.uk  |    I did---and look what happened to me.
-- 
Murray A. Jorgensen [ maj@waikato.ac.nz ]    University of Waikato
Department of Mathematics and Statistics     Hamilton, New Zealand      
__________________________________________________________________
'Tis the song of the Jubjub! the proof is complete,
if only I've stated it thrice.'
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 19:05:25 -0400 
From: "Benjamin D. Lukoff" <bl2m+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: "need"-subjunctive
	<1992Jul25.004608.26348@news.eng.convex.com>

The subjunctive nut?  Well, maybe it was the subjunctive. Now I'm
confused.  I have never met anyone who would call himself a 'subjunctive
nut', though I am quite interested in the few remaining forms left in
our language. Cool.
Well, so is it the subjunctive or isn't it?
From: maj@waikato.ac.nz
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: THE VERB 'TO BE'
Date: 22 Jul 92 09:32:21 +1200
Organization: University of Waikato, Hamilton, New Zealand

In article <ceNsoIW00awGE0v1lM@andrew.cmu.edu>, "Benjamin D. Lukoff" <bl2m+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
> The only correct interrogative form of "I am" is "am I not"?
> People say "aren't I" and "ain't I", and yes, in places they *do* say
> "amn't I" but the correct form is "am I not" even though it doesn't
> sound natural.

I keep wanting to use 'might-as-well'nt I' in sentences like

'I might as well do that, might as well'nt I ?' .

I resist the temptation, though.
-- 
Murray A. Jorgensen [ maj@waikato.ac.nz ]    University of Waikato
Department of Mathematics and Statistics     Hamilton, New Zealand      
__________________________________________________________________
'Tis the song of the Jubjub! the proof is complete,
if only I've stated it thrice.'
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
From: dant@techbook.com (Dan Tilque)
Subject: Re: "This" weekend vs. "Next" weekend
Organization: Pseudopolis Yard
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 05:15:00 GMT

It seems to me that when I first learned it, this weekend refered to
the closest weekend (but on Wednesday it would be rounded up to the
following weekend).  Next weekend would always be the weekend after
this weekend.

However, later on I met people who didn't follow this rule and so I had
to avoid using "this weekend" when there might be some ambiguity.

---
Dan Tilque    --     dant@techbook.com
From: dand@buscard.fidonet.org (Dan Davidson)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: el nino
Date: 29 Jul 92 04:29:27 GMT
X-Maildoor: WaflineMail 1.00r


  => In a message to All on 07-26-92  11:36 Wilcox@vax.oxford.ac.uk said:

 Wi> dand@buscard.fidonet.org (Dan Davidson) writes: > 
 >
 > Actually, "thou" was singular and "you" was plural.
 > 
 Wi> Er, Dan, "thou" and "you" are *2nd* person pronouns. Dennis was
 Wi> referring to the fact that English has a seperate verb form for the
 Wi> pronouns "he", "she", "it".

I thought he was contrasting the full complement of third person
singular verbs with the apparent 'singular' monotony in 2nd person.
I'm saying that it's stranger than (more singular than?) that, because
the monotony is plural.
                                                   -- Dan --

                      +------------------------------+
                      |   dand@buscard.fidonet.org   |
                      +------------------------------+
                      |       Dan Davidson           |
                      +------------------------------+



... THINK! or thwim.
--- Blue Wave/QWK v2.10
From: crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu (Lauren L. Crawford)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Re: English English versus *American* English
Date: 31 Jul 92 15:28:43 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <Bs99E0.A19@wpi.WPI.EDU> padutton@wpi.WPI.EDU (Peter Alan Dutton) writes:
>Perhaps we should start a movement to stop people in India and Pakistan
>and other countries of the sort to stop using English at all. I mean,
>they're all FOREIGNERS! We can't have anyone speaking OUR language unless
>they can trace their ancestors back to the Mother Country.
>
>And maybe you should read Chaucer or Shakespeare back in the "original"
>English they were written in (funny how all the "original" speakers are
>DEAD!!!), just to see how much spelling (AND pronunciation) has evolved.
>
Is there anyone out there, please, please, please, who has saved this
thread?  If so, will you email it to me?  It just keeps getting
better.



-- 
===============================================================================
Lauren Crawford  //  crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu
"What a waste it is to lose one's mind.  Or not to have a mind.  How true  
that is." -- J. Danforth Quayle at United Negro College Fund luncheon
From: plu@math.psu.edu (T. Andrew Simpson)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: Policy Wonk (was Re: Sound-Bite?)
Date: 31 Jul 92 16:36:26 GMT
	<1992Jul30.135754.11173@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu>
	<1992Jul30.165848.7936@vax.oxford.ac.uk>
Organization: Department of Mathematics, Pennsylvania State University

In article <1992Jul30.165848.7936@vax.oxford.ac.uk> wilcox@vax.oxford.ac.uk writes:

   bkannan@ha06.eng.ua.edu (Balaji Kannan) asked:

   >>  Who is a policy-wonk?
   > 

   wald@theory.lcs.mit.edu (David Wald)replied:

   > If you can get a hold of it, take a look at William Safire's recent
   > column on this term in the New York Times Magazine, this past Sunday
   > or the one previous.
   >
   But for those of us who can't, or who can't be bothered to do the long
   library work this would involve, how about telling us yourself?

Well, I haven't read Safire's column lately, but I think I can answer
this one.  A `policy wonk' (also `policy nerd') is someone who seems
to spend too much time on policy - i.e., identifying specific problems
and coming up with detailed plans for correcting them.  The term is
most often applied these days to Bill Clinton, the Democratic
Presidential candidate.  It's mainly a pejorative term; many who use
it evidently believe there's something weird about such dedication to
detail, or that the plans offered by policy wonks would do nothing but
increase the power of the Government bureaucracy.  Some of Clinton's
own campaign workers have been heard to grumble that their man is
acting too much like a policy wonk; their complaint is mostly that as
a policy wonk, he won't be able to excite the voters.  I don't know
really when the expression was invented.  I can't remember having
heard it during the last Presidential election campaign, though the
Democratic candidate then was probably as much a policy wonk as
Clinton.

   -- 

   Stephen Wilcox             |   Remember what happened to the dinosaurs!
   wilcox@maths.oxford.ac.uk  |    I did---and look what happened to me.

- Todo
From: GRV101@psuvm.psu.edu (Callec Dradja)
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english
Subject: peeved
Date: 31 Jul 92 19:54:13 GMT
Organization: Penn State University

You know why I am peeved? Someone posted a word that peeved them.
The word had a negative prefix on it something like un or dis.
Another poster responded "how about..." and posted the word minus
its prefix which made it a hilarious nonsense word. Does anyone
remember what the word was? I looked back over old articles but
the one I wanted had already expired.

                                 Thanks in advance,
                                 Gregson Vaux

********************************************************************
* If all we do is live and die,           *  Gregson Vaux          *
* then tell me about the birds that fly.  *  Penn State University *
* If all we did was die and live,         *  Semitics & English    *
* would springtime be there to forgive?   *  GRV101@psuvm.psu.edu  *
********************************************************************