HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Organization: Temple University/SCT Computer Services
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 30 Jul 1992 17:03:23 EDT
From:         "Roger A. Phyall" <ROGER@TEMPLEVM.BITNET>
Subject:      RE: You have to preach in church to be a REAL reverend
              30 Jul 1992 19:53:26 GMT from <creps@SILVER.UCS.INDIANA.EDU>

On Thu, 30 Jul 1992 19:53:26 GMT Steve Creps said:
>   This is how I understand the use of the title Reverend (Rev.).
>
>   Now for Protestant ministers I _believe_ that "Reverend" is used
>similarly; that is, as an adjective.  It does not replace the title
>"Mister."  For example, "Reverend Mr. John Smith" (again pronounced
>as having "the" before it).  Therefore, addressing him as "Reverend
>Smith" would be inappropriate.  Of course, some denominations may not
>follow this.  It's actually a matter of etiquette, not theology.
>
Close Steve:

     IT is both an adjective and a title of respect.  The term "Mr." would not
ever be used.  On the other hand, "Doctor" is often used when the minister is
degreed as such.  Lastly, the term "Reverend Smith" IS the most common way to
address the minister.  Ya heard it from a committed Baptist himself!

|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
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| Computer/Math Bldg. Rm 851 |         Roger A. Phyall          |
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 29 Jul 1992 23:32:53 EDT
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Divorce and Remarriage

We aren't saved by obeying the laws.  If we need to break them, due to
circumstances, we are not lost because of them.  We have a savior.  He
is our salvation. He knows if we really know him and are seeking him in
our hearts. If a marriage is in misery and causing sin and grief, do you
think that Christ does not see this?  When God sees our sin, he will know
if we have Christ and if we have Christ, he will forget our sins.  This
is not to say that we should not try to save our marriages.  But if it
cannot be saved and it is causing sin and grief and hurting our relation-
ship with God, then it would be better to divorce.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
Subject: Re:      RE: You have to preach in church to be a REAL reverend
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 19:53:26 GMT


   This is how I understand the use of the title Reverend (Rev.).  For
Catholic clergy, a priest usually goes by "Father," as in "Fr. William
Schmidt."  One might address him as "Father Schmidt," "Father William,"
"Father Bill," or just "Father" (some might even just call him "Bill,"
but that's a different matter).  The title Reverend may be used, but is
more formal, and not suitable as a form of address.  For example, the
church bulletin might say, "Rev. William Schmidt, Pastor."  I believe
this is pronounced, "THE Reverend William Schmidt."  ("Father" is omitted
in such a case.)

   Now for Protestant ministers I _believe_ that "Reverend" is used
similarly; that is, as an adjective.  It does not replace the title
"Mister."  For example, "Reverend Mr. John Smith" (again pronounced
as having "the" before it).  Therefore, addressing him as "Reverend
Smith" would be inappropriate.  Of course, some denominations may not
follow this.  It's actually a matter of etiquette, not theology.

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 30 Jul 1992 20:57:19 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Reply to Yvette on mult. personalities

Will wonders never cease?

I agree completely with what Jesse said about demon possession.
Hi, Jesse :-)
             Love INC,
                      --Kerry
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 27 Jul 1992 15:33:03 EST
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      im back..

Hi..
Could someone fill me in privately on the current conversations going around..
I have just returned to active mail status after a couple of weeks hiatis!..
Prayers for our new church plant in Singapore would be appreciated!

Bye!

---------------------+-------------+-----------------------------------------
Ian Williams         |    _--_|\   |      Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems       |   /      \  |	  Phone	  : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia  |   \_.--*_/  |
                     |         v   |
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 27 Jul 1992 13:50:33 MST
From:         Madge McBurney <ISPMOM@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Usenet business --
              27 Jul 1992 14:06:00 MDT from <SKLEPZI@SSB1.SAFF.UTAH.EDU>

On Mon, 27 Jul 1992 14:06:00 MDT Steven Klepzig said:

The following message was posted by Steven Klepzig just a few minutes ago.
If you are reading this via a Usenet/Netnews service, but did not read the
original post from Steven, please contact me with the information requested
below.

Thank you.
Madge McBurney
ispmom@asuacad
ispmom@asuvm.inre.asu.edu

  ----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Just a short note:
>
>There have been some reports of problems with the Usenet feeds from Christia
>and some posts, specifically mine.  Apparently my posts aren't seen on all
>news feeds.
>
>So, if you are reading this message via news of some kind, please drop me a
>note and tell me so, including where you are and where you get your news feed
>from (if you know).  I hope that this information will assist us in tracing
>down areas that are having these problems.
>
>Thanks,
>Steven   (sklepzi@ssb1.saff.utah.edu)
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 29 Jul 1992 08:32:00 EST
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      Re: Amy Grant & Gospel
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU
              "Richard.Campbell@MVS.UDEL.EDU" at Jul 28, 92 8:33 am

>
>   Someone (Kerry?) mentioned Amy's music is contemporary Christian, not
>Gospel, as Gospel refers usually to black gospel music.  Isn't it true, Europe
>list-members, that in the UK Christian rock is often called "Gospel Rock"???
>     BTW, how popular has "Heart in Motion" been outside the U.S.?  Any top 10
>tunes?????????
>              Just curious,        Rich C.
>

I am not sure about top ten, but I know that "baby baby" and "thats what love
is for" and "every heartbeat" did very well in Australia... Top 40 I would
hazard a guess, which is ok when up against such trash like 'Faith no more'
(spit) and other crud that usually populates our popular music charts!


---------------------+-------------+-----------------------------------------
Ian Williams         |    _--_|\   |      Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems       |   /      \  |	  Phone	  : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia  |   \_.--*_/  |
                     |         v   |
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 21 Jul 1992 01:17:18 EDT
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      "Superstitious behavior"

A listmember wrote that, when Our Lord cried out on the Cross, the
bystanders said, "He is asking Elijah for help." (M 27:46-49 and P
15:34-36) This was cited a proof that the pre-Christian Jews
believed in asking Elijah, and other departed saints, for help.

Kerry Stephenson wrote:

 > But Jesus was NOT calling Elijah. The supersitious behavior of
 > pre-Christian peoples ought not to be a standard for our
 > behavior....

Steve Creps replied:

 > You just called Judaism, the religion given by God before his
 > Son was on earth, the "supersitious behavior of pre-Christian
 > peoples."

Not at all. This would be true only if the belief that it is right
to ask Elijah for help could be said to be part of the religion
revealed to the Jews through Moses and the other prophets. Our Lord
points out that in his day there were many beliefs popular among the
Jews that had no sound basis (M 15:1-9 = P 7:1-13). In parts of
England, it is (or used to be) widely thought unlucky to walk around
a church widdershins (counter-clockwise).  If someone were to refer
to this as "the superstitious behaviour of insular people," I would
not complain that he was calling English Christianity a
superstition.

 Yours,
 James Kiefer
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Date:         Tue, 28 Jul 1992 10:09:34 EST
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      Re: Thank You
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU
              "jstahley@QUALCOMM.COM" at Jul 27, 92 2:47 pm

>
>I would like to Thank all of you for kind words of support,encouragement
>and love. Most of all, you have shown me a lighted path thru the darkness
>and I know now that I am not alone. Would anyone have the time or resources
>to do a online, one to one discipleship with me?
>                                JSTAHLEY@ATHENA.QUALCOMM.COM
>
>                                RECEIVING INSPECTION DEPARTMENT
>
Having gone through a little of what you have talked about, I am willing
to take the time to 'talk' it over with you if you like...

email me..

I dont know about discipleship though, we are all disciples of Jesus!



---------------------+-------------+-----------------------------------------
Ian Williams         |    _--_|\   |      Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems       |   /      \  |	  Phone	  : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia  |   \_.--*_/  |
                     |         v   |
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 27 Jul 1992 08:27:32 -0500
From:         MARCI HENDRIX <HENDRIX@RHODES.BITNET>
Subject:      prayer request

I would like to request prayer for my step-father, Reid, for his health.
Reid is a wonderful man, good natured, loves my mother, loves life,
he's a good, good, kind man.  Yet, he is stubborn as all get-out.  He's
72 and has always had good health but right now he's not feeling well but
won't go to the doctor.  It could be something simple like iron-pour
blood, or it could be major -- who knows.  Maybe he's afraid -- he's
not saved.  Thank you for your prayers.  Marci Hendrix
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia,alt.athiesm,talk.religion.misc
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 28 Jul 1992 08:35:27 EDT
From:         dave talaga x2752 <talaga@E5SB.OSDHW.SYR.GE.COM>
Subject:      Re: Edify (was "Changing Opinions")
X-To:         CHRISTIA@asuvm.inre.asu.edu

> Things have been getting pretty hot on this list.  Perhaps I shouldn't
> comment, since I haven't been on the front lines like Darren, Marty,
> et al., but maybe being relatively uninvolved gives me a more detached
> view of the discussions which have taken place.
>
> Christians on both sides of several issues are not doing credit to their
> cause by the way they voice their opinions.  Are we discussing these
> topics in love, or in self-righteous indignation?  Perhaps we should
> wait a few hours (or more) before replying to a posting which has
> angered us.
>
Has anyone seen the way iron sharpens iron recently?  Sparks, lots of sparks.
 As a new member of Christia I find the interchange between people like Marty
 and Darren to be most refreshing as compared to most "Christian" rhetoric.
 This is good.  We need this.  There will be differences, and as Paul and
 Barnabas proved, spaks will fly; but, as Paul and Barnabas proved, we all grow
 from it.

Christianity is radical, it defies logic, it is the quintessential expression of
 rebellion, it is war.  Christianity is not for the ones who cry foul at the
 first sign of discomfort.  Please don't be offended by discussions that don't
 "fit."  Rather, use them as an opportunity to reexamine your beliefs, even your
 faith, and I know you will be blessed for facing yourself.

I like Darren and Marty.  I think if they faced off in person they would come
 away with at least mutual respect, but I tend to think a deep lasting
 friendship would occur.  Each are speaking their hearts, and, in doing so they
 are refining themselves.  Such should be the case between brothers and sisters.

As for those who don't know our Savior, who you fear would be offended by these
 displays: if the Church was to say only the things that didn't offend them,
 what is their hope for salvation?

In Christ,

Dave Talaga
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 24 Jul 1992 14:24:00 CDT
From:         "Love does not subtract, it multiplies." <HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Practical witchcraft? (Partly about US politics)

I'm not particularly eager for the list to become embroiled in a discussion of
Witchcraft, and I expect that Madge and Steve aren't either -- this isn't an
appropriate place for it.  If people would like to discuss it, I suggest
we take it over to BELIEF@BROWNVM or into private e-mail.

I picked Ascha as an example of a 14 (now 16) year old who is sufficiently
mature to make her own life decisions (in response to someone asking if such
existed).  I picked her because she is the example I have in my personal
experience.

I tend to forget that we have far more people here than who post regularly, and
people who log on and have no clue who I am.  I will try to watch that, perhaps
placing a notice to the effect of "If you're confused or concerned, write to
me."

<       This is quite different from informing new members of his
<       coven on what they are in for.

Just as a note, anyone who doesn't already know what is involved in a Coven,
and doesn't actively want to be invilved in it, doesn't get in.

Dan
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Date:         Thu, 30 Jul 1992 12:18:19 EST
From:         Boon Chye Lee <boon@CC.UOW.EDU.AU>
Subject:      Re: friend in need of prayer
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU
              Jul 29, 92 2:49 pm

Julia,

I am praying for your friend.

Several years ago, I found myself in a very bad situation through
no fault of mine.  The problem was causing me much pain, and at the height
of it, after something happened, I shed tears.  I then took the matter
to the Lord, who directed me to Psalm 30:5:  "weeping may endure
for a night, but joy cometh in the morning."  I grasped hold of that promise.
Within two days the
situation had turned, dramatically.  I saw then the extent of the Lord's
love for me and that, if I was prepared to rest in Him, in a situation
over which I had absolutely no control, He would bring me through.  Praise
His holy name.

I pray that Stephen will find in his situation God's tender loving hand
and that he will be comforted and uplifted and brought through it praising
and thanking Him.

In His love,

Boon
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 30 Jul 1992 08:34:56 -0700
From:         DRAKE@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU
Subject:      Prayer request - G.D. Dodson
X-To:         christia@asuvm.inre.asu.edu

	I just got a call from my Mom.  My Grandpa is having intense pain
all over his body.  It is strong enough that he passes out at times.  He is
in the hospital now, waiting.  His doctor thinks that it may stinosis (SP?).
Please pray for him, and grandma.  I know she is going to worry herself si.

Mark

ps.  If you know what stinosis is, could you email me and tell me?
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: timk@world.std.com (Tim King)
Subject: Re: Amy Grant and her "Crossover" Music
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 07:25:06 GMT

When I saw Amy Grant at Great Woods in Mansfield, MA, she had Kim Hill
open.  (Actually, one of the primary reasons I went to the concert was
to see Kim Hill.  Great music!)  For all who don't know, Kim Hill is a
christain musician and vocalist who does kinda-like-70's adult-contemporary
rock.

Many of Amy's songs are covertly christian.  Some of her newest songs are
simply not "christian."  By this I mean that they don't address the
relationship between God and man.  However, they're not anti-christian
either.  In my opinion, there's a big difference between the two.  (And
I used to think otherwise.)  For example, "Baby, Baby," in it's most ready
interpretation is that she's in love with this guy, and she's going to be
with him for a long, long time.  Now, certainly, developing a long-term
relationship is not something that is non-christian!  As a matter of fact
it's encouraged in scripture.  A lifetime commitment, which is implied in
the lyrics of the song, is the biblical concept of marriage.

Some people may not agree with my assessment on this issue, and my comment
to them is "Don't listen to Amy Grant."  However, for those who can handle
it or find something useful in her music, I don't know of any of Amy's
music which is anti-christian.  I think I could in good conscience
recommend her music.

Incidentally, I took my atheist (I think he's an atheist) friend to the
concert, and he said he enjoyed it.  He had a lot of good comments.
(Yes, Tom, if you happen to browse this newsgroup, I'm talking about you. :-)

-Tim
-- 
Tim King                  |-_      |
Dedham, MA                |  -|    |    Make mine music!
timk@world.std.com       <>   |   <>
(617) 890-2929 x137          <>
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From: mueller@owlnet.rice.edu (Ernest Conrad Mueller)
Subject: Re: Remarriage after Divorce?
Organization: Rice University
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 21:55:22 GMT

>What actually constitutes marriage?  Is it the ceremony and
>the official document?  Or is it the consummation which takes
>place after (as God would have it) the marriage ceremony?  (In thinking
>about this, doesn't the Catholic church provide for an annulment
>if consummation had not occured?  Isn't that one of the deciding
>factors, if not the main factor?  I'm not exactly sure.)

Firstly, one needs to keep in mind the difference between a "legal marriage,"
which has the binding force of law, and "holy matrimony," the Christian
covenant of marriage.  The piece of paper saying you're married could be
put to better use the next time you go to the restroom from the Christian
point of view.  (However it might be handy to have around tax time, so
hold on to it for now).  

From here it depends on your church's view of things.  In the "high
churches" (Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, etc) there are such things
as sacraments, that is, ceremonies which have a true and binding force.
Baptism, Holy Communion, and (to varying degrees) marriage are some
of these.  In these churches, the "ceremony" is not just ceremony, but the
couple is married in God's eyes as soon as they take the vows and the 
priest declares them man and wife.  The consummation is only partially 
neccessary - the marriage is not automatically invalid if it is not 
consummated, but if it isn't one of the parties may opt out (assuming they
didn't know about this problem ahead of time).  So if someone marries
an invalid knowing they aren't fully equipped, as it were, they have
a valid marriage, but if someone gets there and discovers the wedding night
consists of Parcheesi they can leave if desired.  That having been said, it
is possible to be married without the priest and all (If you're stranded
on a desert island, etc, etc,) but it is still considered a spiritually
binding decision.

In the "low churches" (most of Protestantism, esp. those who don't buy
the Creeds) the issue is a little more cloudy.  Some say that the witnessing 
of the marriage by the friends and family forms the covenant, others that
the sexual act itself is all that is required.  Some say that the ceremony
is neccessary, some do not.  Some say it's sacred, some not.  It tends to
vary by denomination, by church, and by clergyman.

Maybe some of our low church brethren could say what their particular
denomination believes (or in case of non-denominationals, just say
something about it).

Note: High church and low church are not value judgements but rather well
defined and widely accepted descriptions of churches that a) are characterized
by much tradition, sacrament, ceremony, and clergy, or b) those that do
not use such things.
 
Ernest Mueller
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: amorgan@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Crunchy Frog)
Subject: Re: One of my very favorite hymns
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 19:42:14 GMT

In article <CHRISTIA%92073109030040@ASUACAD.BITNET> 
  KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET (Kerry Stephenson) writes:
>
>On a related note, I have heard people say that "history" is "His
>Story."  Is there any linguistic historical basis for this?

his.to.ry \'his-t(<e>-)r<e^->\ n, pl -ries (14c)
 [L historia, fr. Gk, inquiry, history, fr. hist<o^->r, ist<o^->r knowing,
learned; akin to Gk eidenai to know -- more at WIT]

In a word - no.

C Frog
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Sat, 25 Jul 1992 03:42:20 EDT
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From:         Angela Zimmerman <AMZIMM01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Family Values and Arbitration

Item Retrieval Assistant, DADS
Phone: 588-6757
I don't think that parents have the right to force their children to
do anything that could affect their adult lives (like whether or not
to have an abortion).  Children are a lot smarter than some people here
will give them credit for.  Believe it or not, but sometimes children
know what's best for them better than the parents do.  There's also no
way to say what age a child is able to think for themselves, as each
individual matures differently.  I think a child should be able to take
his parents to court pretty much at any age, as long as the judge thinks
the child is mature enough to know what he's doing.  Issues like this are
not clear-cut by any means and should be treated more on a case-by-case
situation, similar to what Hilary Clinton is suggesting.
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