HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Organization: Arizona State University
Date: Monday, 9 Nov 1992 14:09:29 MST
From: Jon L. Campbell <KVJLC@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject:    Theme ~ Moral


   Several people responded to my posting and challenged what my choatic
theory or morality and theme.  I may be wrong about this, but I don't see
a difference between morality and theme.  A story with a theme is one that
tries to leave an underlining message ~ subliminal message for the reader
to grasp and apply (e.g. love conquers all, etc.).  Morality in fiction is
not really any different.  Take the morality of 'love conquers all' and
apply it a story.  What you end up with is a theme with which the story
is based.  Morality is an artistic work that teaches a moral lesson according
to Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary.  If this is true then what is
the difference between theme and morality, nothing.  Plain and simple when
someone attempts to subvert a story with their own ideas of morality, then
they are playing god with the mind of the reader.  Because morality in the
story is so subtle, it is subliminal and therefore, dangerous.  A means of
invoking thoughts and prejudices, love and hate, right and wrong, but who
among any writer has that responsibility.
   A story is just that.  Nothing more than one persons idea of reality or
un-reality (i.e. lack of reality).  High school english or college writing,
it doesn't matter, but wherever theme is taught it is an abuse of mankinds
free choice.  The freedom to choose what is moral or not, the freedom to
decide for themselves what is morality and what is immoral.  To write a
moralistic theme into a story is equlivent to artistic incest.  Think
about it.

Jon  -- My morality wasn't in question, I don't have any doubts about it.
Xref: sparky misc.writing:3408 alt.censorship:8602
From: lnh@soliton.physics.arizona.edu (sometimes a Wombat)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Fiction Advice 16: Publishers & Agents
Date: 6 Nov 92 17:42:42 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Society for the Appreciation of Janni Lee Simner

Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian) writes:
> 
> If you've hammered out a credible but
> surprising plot about interesting people in a hell of a jam, and you're
> showing them in action instead of telling us what they're like, and your
> grammar, spelling and punctuation are first-rate--you're already ahead of 80
> per cent of your competition.

More like 95% if slush stories are to be believed.

	Larry "Run away screaming" Hammer
--

LNH@physics.arizona.edu   \  For love all love of other sights controls,
GEnie: L.HAMMER2           \ And makes one little room an everywhere -- Donne
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: news@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (News)
Subject: Re: Theme ~ Moral
Followup-To: misc.writing
Organization: UIUC
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 04:20:25 GMT

In article <92314.140929KVJLC@ASUACAD.BITNET>, Jon L. Campbell
<KVJLC@ASUACAD.BITNET> wrote:
> 
> 

> Plain and simple when
> someone attempts to subvert a story with their own ideas of morality, then
> they are playing god with the mind of the reader.  Because morality in the
> story is so subtle, it is subliminal and therefore, dangerous.  A means of
> invoking thoughts and prejudices, love and hate, right and wrong, but who
> among any writer has that responsibility.

Ah, Jon...  This is *why* writers write and artists create art and actors
act.
When you (the audience) experience something that is well crafted, we
(the creators) are offering  you a look at the world from a different
perspective--
our own.  And morality is a unique part of each of our perspectives.

When you read something *I* write,  I hope that,
 you will come away with a view of duty and
honor that is slightly different than the one you already have.
 I want you to see, from my p.o.v., how guilt can warp our  world
and how responsiblity can be more important than personal happiness.

I write suspense fiction, and I've failed if you are bored by the world
I've created.  I want you to be involved enough 
in the people I've introduced, that you'll  hurt--just a little-- when they
are hurting and  you' ll hold your breath--for just a moment-- when they
are in
trouble.   And maybe someday  ( if I've done my job really  well)as you 
confront a personal dilemna, you'll find yourself remembering
that one of my characters handled a similar problem and you'll
find some comfort in the thought that your world has much in common
with mine. 

 Am I playing  God when I write ?  You bet I am.  That's my * job*, Jon.
In my make-believe world, I *am* the creator and you are my 
invited guest.

If you read a book, view a piece of sculpture,  watch a movie,
 then you've consented to entering  a world of someone else's  making.
While  you're visiting, you'll be shown the thoughts and prejudices,
loves andhates, and rights and wrongs that exist in *that* world.  Then,
at your discretion, you can use what you've learned to re-form your own
perspective.

If you want to avoid themes and morality--if you're truly afraid of
 subtle, subliminal, and dangerous viewpoints, then your only safety
 is  in cookbooks, user's manuals, and soup can labels.

Maureen
From: mtan@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Maureen Tan)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: guay@fraser.sfu.ca (Tim Guay)
Subject: Re: On-line Writing Workshop?
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 12:41:18 GMT

In article <1992Nov11.102557@orion.IntelliCorp.COM> pobermarck@intellicorp.com writes:
>About a month ago, I sent email  to that address asking to subscribe to the
>On-line writers group.  I promptly recieved a notice asking if I was was 
>really committed and willing to participate, etc.  If so, I should send a
>hello and bio message for the group to review. 
>
>I did so, but have not heard anything more.  Yesterday, I sent another
>message to writers-request, asking after my status.  I have had no reply.
>
>Perhaps the system is down or something?
>
>I'd hate to think that they were being stand-offish snobs. ;-)
>
Being on that group I can tell you that their system is up. However the 
moderator is severely overworked and is currently trying to find another
moderator to unload the group on. 
>|> 
>|> Andy
>|> ag@hpopd.pwd.hp.com
>
>-- 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>  Philip R. Obermarck                 "I've been alive since time began,
>  PObermarck@IntelliCorp.COM            Not beast, not god, and yet not man.
>                                       I am the music and the dance,
>  <IntelliCorp disavows any             I am the piper who enchants."
>   knowledge of my actions>                           (Creature of the Wood)
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: Alan_Barclay@mindlink.bc.ca (Alan Barclay)
Subject: Re: William Gibson
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 08:02:21 GMT

Don't bet Gibson is on any net.  _Neuromancer_ was written on a manual type
writer.  At the time Gibson only put the word "modem" in the book because he
thought it sounded neat--he didn't know what it was.  I understand he now has
a computer of some sort but he's never been a computer afficionado.
--
Alan


alan_barclay@mindlink.bc.ca


Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: guay@fraser.sfu.ca (Tim Guay)
Subject: Re: Ethics, publishing and the net
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 18:57:04 GMT

In article <74214@apple.apple.COM> chuq@Apple.COM (Eeyore's Evil Twin) writes:
>echyatt@eos.ncsu.edu (EDWARD CRAIG HYATT) writes:
>>I'm disturbed by this new trend of announcing new publications.
>
>>This amounts a commercial use of the Internet, which is strictly forbidden.
>
>I don 't particularly want to see a lot of clutter, either, but this is no
>different than the dozens of companies (including Apple) that regularly
>distribute press releases on the net. So it might be your interpretation of
>what amounts to commercial use, but it is at best a minority view. Also, I
>think, an incorrect one.
>
>Besides, that's why god invented kill files. I'm not as worried about 
>people posting stuff I don't like as I am people trying to decide for me
>what I ought to want to read...
>
HERE! HERE! I don't need no net.cop telling me what I can or cannot read, and
what I can or cannot post!!! 

===============================================================================
  Ta Ta For Now      | Life is what happens to you while you are on your
        Tim          | way to do something else...
===============================================================================
Xref: sparky misc.writing:3433 alt.censorship:8623
From: lightnin@realsoon.WPI.EDU (Await the Stones)
Newsgroups: misc.writing,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: A gender neutral pronoun, was Fundamentalist Nightmare
Date: 6 Nov 92 11:38:05
Organization: DeityCo: Major and Minor Deities Placement Agency
NNTP-Posting-Host: realsoon.wpi.edu
In-reply-to: bigbro@netlink.cts.com's message of Thu, 05 Nov 92 15:26:58 PST

bigbro is defined as the person who on, 
On Thu, 05 Nov 92 15:26:58 PST,
said:

bigbro> greeny@top.cis.syr.edu (J. S. Greenfield) writes:

> To me, both of these positions seem equally dumb.

bigbro> Excatly, in any situation there can be a reasonable
bigbro> explaination and solution, but people will always carry it to
bigbro> extremes, and screw it up.  Like enviromentalists, the
bigbro> enviroment, in my opinion is a worthy cause, however I do not
bigbro> feel like admitting it when EARTH FIRST! fools put stakes into
bigbro> trees to hurt the loggers....nor can I agree with those who
bigbro> are so mad at these extremeists, that the go into thier own
bigbro> little terrorists organzations, and take the other extreme.
bigbro> Any extreme is evil.

Yes, this is the way I've always interpreted my family's motto:

Mediocria Firma (loosely translated as "Moderation in Everything")

at least, that's who I interpret it.  Works pretty well too.

-lightnin

    /| Lightning: (n) A Force of Nature consisting of an electric discharge.
   / |_Virtual Enterprises, GmbH: Bureaucracy Inaction! 
  /_  /=======================================================================
   / / |Up the long ladder, and down the short rope,       |Email: 
  / /_ |to Hell with King Billy, and God bless the Pope,   |lightnin
 /_  / |if that doesn't do, we'll tear him in two,         |@wpi.wpi.edu
  / /  |and send him to Hell with his red, white, and blue.|__________________
 / /   |                                    -Traditional Irish Children's Song
/ /===========================================================================
|/ "Dark is not one of my favorite colors." -Ralph, the All Purpose Animal.
From: lnh@soliton.physics.arizona.edu (sometimes a Wombat)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Theme ~ Moral
Date: 10 Nov 92 16:53:24 GMT
Organization: Society for the Appreciation of Janni Lee Simner

elf@halcyon.com (Elf Sternberg) writes:

I agree with what you say about artistic integrity and protagonist's
views.  Before I had written much, I thought that I could use writing
to explore worldviews that I didn't understand.  I'm now fairly
convinced that I couldn't write well any PoV who isn't in some way at
least a fragment of me.

Of course, like all humans, I contain multitudes.

>    I disagree with this, as well as Larry's insistence that "A story
> theme that can be summed into one sentence will never be a novel."  I
> still write stories... short, medium, novel, and even multi-book, that
> can easily be summed up into one sentence.

I suspect that we would, if we follow this up, start quibbling about
what makes an adiquite summary.

In any case, I was imprecise when I spoke, as I meant thematic 
summation, and your examples seem to indicate you're talking
about plot summary.
 
I seem to have deleted your comments about your basic themes that
reappear in your own work.  I suspect that, should you write a novel
(or call the whole cycle a fix-up novel, which I suggest you don't)
ALL of them would crop up.  And they could not be summarily dealt with
in a single sentence as you have just demonstrated.

>    Take a look at any episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation (a
> local favorite, I think, because the writing is as beautifully
> functional as it is transparent).  

I'd hardly call Star Trek scripts an exemplum of good writing, let alone
beautifully functional.  This is not taking a pot-shot at genre
writing, as I do that myself; but at the IMHO shoddy craft of the
typical ST teleplay.
 
> Hamlet's internal themes do not stand up to the basic theme surrounding
> the whole play, "Indecision sucks."

I'm amazed that you can tease this simple sentence out of a morase that
three centuries of criticism cannot.  This is hardly the only thing
going on in the play, and the others do "stand up" to it, if you mean
what I think you mean.

	Larry "Another Word" Hammer
--

LNH@physics.arizona.edu   \   Hidden harmony is better than manifest.
GEnie: L.HAMMER2           \      -- Heraclitus, #47
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: news@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (News)
Subject: Re: Theme ~ Moral
Followup-To: misc.writing
Organization: UIUC
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 04:20:44 GMT

In article <92314.140929KVJLC@ASUACAD.BITNET>, Jon L. Campbell
<KVJLC@ASUACAD.BITNET> wrote:
> 
> 

> Plain and simple when
> someone attempts to subvert a story with their own ideas of morality, then
> they are playing god with the mind of the reader.  Because morality in the
> story is so subtle, it is subliminal and therefore, dangerous.  A means of
> invoking thoughts and prejudices, love and hate, right and wrong, but who
> among any writer has that responsibility.

Ah, Jon...  This is *why* writers write and artists create art and actors
act.
When you (the audience) experience something that is well crafted, we
(the creators) are offering  you a look at the world from a different
perspective--
our own.  And morality is a unique part of each of our perspectives.

When you read something *I* write,  I hope that,
 you will come away with a view of duty and
honor that is slightly different than the one you already have.
 I want you to see, from my p.o.v., how guilt can warp our  world
and how responsiblity can be more important than personal happiness.

I write suspense fiction, and I've failed if you are bored by the world
I've created.  I want you to be involved enough 
in the people I've introduced, that you'll  hurt--just a little-- when they
are hurting and  you' ll hold your breath--for just a moment-- when they
are in
trouble.   And maybe someday  ( if I've done my job really  well)as you 
confront a personal dilemna, you'll find yourself remembering
that one of my characters handled a similar problem and you'll
find some comfort in the thought that your world has much in common
with mine. 

 Am I playing  God when I write ?  You bet I am.  That's my * job*, Jon.
In my make-believe world, I *am* the creator and you are my 
invited guest.

If you read a book, view a piece of sculpture,  watch a movie,
 then you've consented to entering  a world of someone else's  making.
While  you're visiting, you'll be shown the thoughts and prejudices,
loves andhates, and rights and wrongs that exist in *that* world.  Then,
at your discretion, you can use what you've learned to re-form your own
perspective.

If you want to avoid themes and morality--if you're truly afraid of
 subtle, subliminal, and dangerous viewpoints, then your only safety
 is  in cookbooks, user's manuals, and soup can labels.

Maureen 
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: philo@orion.IntelliCorp.COM (Philip R. Obermarck)
Subject: Re: On-line Writing Workshop?
Date: 11 Nov 92 18:25:57 GMT
Reply-To: pobermarck@intellicorp.com
Organization: IntelliCorp Inc.

In article <...>, ag@hpopd.pwd.hp.com (andy garton) writes:

|> I understood it to be a mailing list whereby any message sent is received
|> by the other people on the mailing list.  Having not received any such mail
|> therefore, I was just trying to ensure that my message to 'writers-request@
|> studguppy.lanl.gov' had in fact been sent properly.
|> 

About a month ago, I sent email  to that address asking to subscribe to the
On-line writers group.  I promptly recieved a notice asking if I was was 
really committed and willing to participate, etc.  If so, I should send a
hello and bio message for the group to review. 

I did so, but have not heard anything more.  Yesterday, I sent another
message to writers-request, asking after my status.  I have had no reply.

Perhaps the system is down or something?

I'd hate to think that they were being stand-offish snobs. ;-)


|> 
|> Andy
|> ag@hpopd.pwd.hp.com

-- 
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Philip R. Obermarck                 "I've been alive since time began,
  PObermarck@IntelliCorp.COM            Not beast, not god, and yet not man.
                                       I am the music and the dance,
  <IntelliCorp disavows any             I am the piper who enchants."
   knowledge of my actions>                           (Creature of the Wood)
 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian)
Subject: Re: Fiction Advice 12: Show & Tell
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 02:01:00 GMT

Jon Campbell raises a point that I really sympathize with. If you find
yourself, as the resident God of your story, creating really evil characters,
you may not be happy with your story or yourself.

I had a similar experience as recently as Chapter 2 of Redmagic, a week or so
ago, when I found myself portraying the actions and thoughts of a wizard
whose idea of right behavior is to cut someone's heart out as proper
gratitude for a success. It gave me the creeps, but it was essential to the
story that he be such a person.

Maybe this won't work for Jon or others, but I find I like my villains and
monsters. They're doing the best they can, and they think they're right to
behave as they do. I sympathize with them...but I also hope that their
"niceness" will enhance their creepiness. A (literally) heart-rending priest
is also affectionate to his junior priest and the soldiers who help him
conquer other tribes. He really loves them in a gentle, parental sense. And
that makes him and his culture more interesting to me, because a
one-dimensional evil is no evil at all. It's when your likable next-door
neighbor becomes a serial killer that you need to examine what made him do
it...and what makes him like you.

--
Crawford Kilian   Communications Department   Capilano College
North Vancouver BC Canada V7J 3H5
Usenet: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca
Internet: ckilian@first.etc.bc.ca

Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: mtan@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Maureen Tan)
Subject: APOLOGIES Re: Multiple Theme ~ Moral
Followup-To: misc.writing
Organization: UIUC
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 15:26:00 GMT

In article <mtan-091192183216@maureen.cen.uiuc.edu>, news@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
(News) wrote:
> 
> In article <92314.140929KVJLC@ASUACAD.BITNET>, Jon L. Campbell
> <KVJLC@ASUACAD.BITNET> wrote:

Jeez, folks, I'm really not so egocentric that I would
post this six times.  Last night the silly machine kept
swearing  that the message was undeliverable and 
I kept retrying periodically.  THen I turned off the
thing in disgust and went home.

This morning :  SURPRISE!  SURPRISE! 

I'm sorry.

Maureen
Organization: Arizona State University
Date: Tuesday, 10 Nov 1992 07:50:49 MST
From: Jon L. Campbell <KVJLC@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject:    mix it up was the theme.


   Well, I hope everyone got something from my recent postings on theme
and moral(ity).  I've had to do a lot of explaining on this one, but let
me say that I am not confused or as novel as I come across.  I posted
the article for a specific purpose, which was to get a lively discussion
on the net.  I don't mind playing the role of pompous snit to achieve a
goal, but name calling isn't necessary.  I may be confused, which quite
oftens happens, but don't demean my character or artistic abilities
until you've read my work.
   My how the net can turn on someone when they post articles contrary
to exacting standards.  I think there is a lot of knowledge available
in this usenet group for people like myself.  Extracting that knowledge
can sometimes be fatal though.  Keep in mind that personal prejudices
and attitudes are not part of the knowledge base I seek, nor do I seek
others perceptions of my artistic abilities or educational background.
These things are better left for my wife to critize.

   Now that I've said mu piece, let us get on with the work at hand.

Jon
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: wizard@wixer.cactus.org (John P Onorato)
Subject: Stephen Donaldson
Organization: Real/Time Communications
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 92 03:37:58 GMT




Does anyone know where and if Stephen R Donaldson is on the net?  I am
so loath to go through publishers...



john

-- 
John P Onorato             |   "Softness without strength is weakness.
wizard@wixer.cactus.org    |    Strength without softness is meanness."
cactus.org!wixer!wizard    |             -- Mahatma Gandhi
Organization: Masters student, English, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Date: Sun,  8 Nov 1992 18:09:50 -0500 
From: Brian Frumolt <bf23+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: A request for suggestions...

Greetings...

I am on a documentation team for a collaborative writing editor at
Carnegie Mellon, and am interested in hearing some opinions.

The editor allows multiple authors or editors to create columns next to
original text.  Comments or changes may be made in these columns, and
then "linked" to the original text so that a printed version allows
comments to remain next to the text which they reference.

There are various editing capabilities:  find and replace, search, move,
the usual cut/paste/multiple paste features.

As writers, what features do you imagine being important to such a program?  

The basic program is written, and we're now looking to suggest to the
programmers some pertinent features they might include.  Any comments
would be greatly appreciated.  Please email me directly, as I don't get
here often.


Thanks in advance,
Brian
From: chuq@Apple.COM (Eeyore's Evil Twin)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Ethics, publishing and the net
Date: 12 Nov 92 17:46:47 GMT
Organization: Pooh Corner Country Club -- A Planned Community

echyatt@eos.ncsu.edu (EDWARD CRAIG HYATT) writes:
>I'm disturbed by this new trend of announcing new publications.

>This amounts a commercial use of the Internet, which is strictly forbidden.

I don 't particularly want to see a lot of clutter, either, but this is no
different than the dozens of companies (including Apple) that regularly
distribute press releases on the net. So it might be your interpretation of
what amounts to commercial use, but it is at best a minority view. Also, I
think, an incorrect one.

Besides, that's why god invented kill files. I'm not as worried about 
people posting stuff I don't like as I am people trying to decide for me
what I ought to want to read...


-- 
            Chuq "IMHO" Von Rospach, ESD Support & Training (DAL/AUX)
                      Member, SFWA =+= Editor, OtherRealms
                chuq@apple.com | GEnie: MAC.BIGOT | ALink:CHUQ 

    I wanna drive the zamboni! I wanna drive the zamboni, yes I do.