From: amanda@INTERCON.COM (Amanda Walker)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Love/Compassion in Eastern Traditions
Date: 14 Sep 92 02:25:33 GMT

My, this is getting interesting...

Tagi@cup.portal.com (Tagi Mordred Nagashiva) writes:
> I don't understand why any of the people who've posted about this
> so far would think that there is only one perspective on love and
> it's 'opposite' (as if it is some sort of mathematical variable).

I agree, although (as we've been recently discussing) there are things which 
can be considered "opposites," at least from certain points of view or allong 
certain axes.

> One could say, then, that the opposite of love is being wounded.

One could, but I wouldn't :).  I would say that (from this point of  view), 
the opposite of love is fear (either of being wounded or in itself).  Love, 
at least to my mind, includes the willingness (or capacity) to be wounded.  
Love means taking risks.  Love means doing things that you know in advance 
will hurt you, but are worth doing nonetheless.

> We could see that love is like
> water, which, if our emotional Plant receives enough of it, inspires our
> Heart to reproduce it for others.

Not a bad image...

> I'd like to know where you get your ideas about the East.  More on this
> below.

Mainly from Buddhism; in all fairness, I do realize that there is more to it, 
and that other eastern religions take different approaches...

> As soon as the person
> does not meet our expectations, we may become angry or hateful.

Hmm.  Part of what characterizes love to me, though, is that love involves 
not having such expectations of someone else.  Love, to me, is not the same 
as lust, emotional attachment or dependency, limerence, romantic feelings, 
and so forth.  Love is complete acceptance of the reality of someone else's 
existence.  When you learn something new about someone you love, it should 
become a cause for greater joy, not anger or hate.  If it does, there are 
factors besides love involved.  The greatest tragedy of my life was in 
learning this lesson.  I lost a friend and lover, perhaps forever, as a 
result of too many expectations on both sides.  It was utterly heartbreaking.  
But though there have been times when I feel like buying cheap crockery to 
break in my back yard :), the love survived.  Unfortunately, that wasn't what 
we had ended up building our relationship on, and at this point there has 
been enough pain that we're not likely to get reacquainted.  Part of loving 
someone is accepting that they are not (and will not be) quite who you think 
they are.  This ties in with the willingness to be wounded, since we often 
get rather fond of our own expectations...

> I contend that it is the result of love in immaturity.  Both are attentive,
> as Amanda makes clear.

This is one way of looking at it.

> I'd like to hear more about this.  Have you compared your ideas to what
> is called 'bhakti' in Hinduism, 'jen' in Chinese religions, or those
> traditions which focus on Kwan Yin or Tara?  I'm very surprised that 
> you don't associate these with agape and personalization.

I don't know much about them...

> And I enjoyed this response, though I think it a tad ambiguous.

This was intentional :).

> What do you mean that it becomes 'indistinguishable from perfect love'?

In part, my conceptions of perfection are related to (or perhaps are 
different expressions of) my conceptions of love.  The more perfect hate 
becomes, the more realistic it becomes--i.e., the more it involves the 
complete acceptance of someone else, without conditions.

> That it dissolves into nicety?

Nicety and love are not at all the same thing.  Love is not necessarily 
"nice."  Love is most definitely not "fair."  We're not talking about Bambi 
and Thumper here... Love has its fearsome (or perhaps, awesome) aspect.  Many 
people are very afraid of pure, unconditional love--its existence would 
forever break their assumptions and expectations about reality, which they 
know would hurt terribly.

> What would this look like?  'Tough love'?  :>

It could.


Amanda Walker

Newsgroups: alt.magick