From: erc@unislc.uucp (Ed Carp)
Subject: Re: response to eddir
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 23:03:33 GMT

sbecker@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu wrote:

: There are a variety of reasons why a person might respond to what they see as
: unjust or unfair descriptions of them (i.e. that Teresa doesn't love herself),
: or to what feels like a flame (i.e. defending herself).  this doesn't
: necessarily mean Teresa has an axe to grind.  Perhaps she feels that she wants
: to share her pain, anger, etc., with ASAR readers.  That is her right, yes?

Others can share their pain and not get attacked - but when I do, I get
attacked!  I feel very defensive about my motivations, because I feel attacked
by Anika and Teresa.  No one likes to be told that they are *wrong*, and I am
no exception.  It just makes me want to flame back.  If someone wants to create
the space where I can feel safe and comfortable about backing down from my
stance, I will - otherwise, I won't.  The more people flame me, the more I will
flame back - and it's a never-ending cycle... :(

Anika and Teresa aren't the only ones hurt by this exchange - I have been hurt
by this, too.  Yes, I'm sorry they have been hurt by my words - but they have
hurt me, too!  I don't like being called names, I don't like being flamed for
expressing my opinion.

: Perhaps she doesn't feel safe or comfortable responding to you in e-mail.
: That is also her right, her choice to make.  It seems as if you too (along
: with what you say Anika and Teresa have done) are making assumptions. . . 

Wait a second - you say that it is her right not to respond, but I have an
*obligation* to respond?  I don't see this.

: > : >Well, I stand corrected.  I never knew you could dance so well on the head of
: > : >a pin.  <sigh>
: 
: You cut a pretty good rug yourself, Ed. . . :)

Yeah, it's the logical, rational, emotionless side of me, you see.  It comes out
when I feel attacked.

: It is the affair of all who read ASAR--you and Teresa made it our affair by
: posting your disagreement.  You've made your "private" and "personal" stuff
: public.  Now it's open for all to comment upon.  Realize, Ed, that you've made
: a choice to continue to go public with this issue by responding to Teresa's
: posts on the board.   By pos ting you make your issues/feelings/opinions
: open to an ongoing dialogue with all who wish to engage you.  Your need to
: defend yourself from what feels like "flaming" from Teresa lead you to choose a
: public forum for that defense.  If you care enough about how asar readers view
: you to defend yourself to them in public, then you owe it to yourself to hear
: their/our responses.

I didn't *intentionally* make it public.  Teresa misunderstood, and the cycle
began.  I'd like to end it.

: Yes, Ed, you *do* have the right to reply in e-mail, but it'd would make things
: a lot clearer for those of us reader's of your posts and flame wars, if you'd
: include any apoligies in opublic.  By extension, all who read your posts become
:  enmeshed in whatever comes of
: enmeshed in them.  Many folks have come out of the wordwork latley to say they'
: ve been hurt
: or angered by your posts in the past--this ought to clue you in to how
: widespread your impact can be on others.  When you offend, hurt, outrage one
: person on ASAR, you can bet their are others who'd also like to hear an
: apology.  Additionally, once you make your original statement public, why not
: make your followups--those which take responsibility for their impact--public
: also?  If nothing else it'll give the rest of us a truer picture of how things
: are or are not resolved.

OK, I will.  I feel hurt that others have taken my words as hurtful in their
intent.  That was *not* my intent.  Hey, if I want to hurt and attack people,
I can go over to alt.flame for that.  I don't need that shit here.  I don't
think anyone else does, either.

After Teresa made her original post, I sent email to her, apologizing for
any misunderstanding that might have come about because of my post.  Anika
sent me email expressing her pain, and again, I echoed that apology to her.
Anika responded, Teresa did not.  Teresa responded via public post, and I
again responded in email.  Again, that message was not responded to.  That's
where things stand.

: We all have the right to ask for what we want from the people we encounter in
: our lives.  You, of course, have the right not to comply.  But your goals in
: being a regular reader/poster to ASAR are to help, support and listen to others
: in need, as well as to learn from their experiences and get support in return.
: So what's the problem?  Why not make a goodd faith effort to acknowledge and
: take responsibility for the pain you've caused Teresa by mentioning her name
: and making a statement about her feelings for herself in a post?  Why not
: attempt to monitor your language and take a more personal approach to your
: posts?  What have you got to lose?  It's not like you're admitting to being
: wrong, or weak or anything.  You're just helping out a friend, allowing her to
: feel more comortable with you.  Sounde like a winning proposition to me.
: or maybe I've missed somethign important here. . . 

Because it sounds (and feels) like saying, "I am 100% responsible for your
pain, and it is soley *my* responsibility to change to suit you.  If you take
something wrong, it is always my fault, and it it always my responsibility to
apologize because you took what I said other than wat is intended.  You have
no obligations whatsoever."

Whether this is an accurate reflection of reality or not is beside the point.
It's how *I* feel.

: Ed, Teresa, Anika, I think I've learned a lot from the exchange among you, and
: the others who've responded as well.  I just wish it was possible for you all
: to reply from a safe emotional space, rather than react.  I hope that Ed can
: stop defending long enough to listen, that Teresa knows that Ed's opionion's of
: her (real or imagined) do not change who she is or how others feel about her,
: and that Anika can learn to express her valuable insights with less overt
: anger.

On my part, I haven't learned much from what I perceive as a vicious attack.
I *will* tell you one thing, though - I have learned more in the past 48 hours
chatting with you on the phone that I have from the past week's worth of posts
regarding this issue.

Thank you for taking the time and effort to create a safe space for me to talk
about my feelings, and for trying to communicate your concerns in a loving,
compassionate way.  I very much appreciate it!
--
Ed Carp			erc@apple.com, erc@saturn.upl.com	801/538-0177

"There is nothing to seek and nothing to find.  You're already enlightened, and
all the words in the world won't give you what you already have.  The wise
seeker, therefore, is concerned with one thing only: to become aware of what
he already is, of the True Self within."  -- Zen maxim
-- 
Ed Carp			erc@apple.com, erc@saturn.upl.com	801/538-0177

"There is nothing to seek and nothing to find.  You're already enlightened, and
all the words in the world won't give you what you already have.  The wise