HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: A change in status...
Date: 4 Jan 93 19:10:17 GMT
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA


I've dropped the occasional hints, read and commented on most of the
year end accumulation of messages and sent out my monthly posting,
it's probably about time to 'formally' let everyone know....

At 12th Night Coronation, I'm to become the new Constable of the
West.  Since I think open communication is Good Idea, I plan to
continue commenting by network, e-mail and mailing list.  Indeed, I
have supplied the Chronicler with my e-mail address for publication.

For the time I am holding the office, I will include a specific
disclaimer to my musings.  Should I forget to do so, please bear in
mind that--in general--I am not going to announcing Constabulary
policy using these means as the primary channel.

Should an urgent need arise, I will use electronic means as *a* means
of spreading the word--but not the only means.

I am quite willing to debate constabulary issues either openly or by
e-mail.  I am willing to discuss specific problems by e-mail.  In the
later case, however, I would prefer to follow up any agreements with
physical letters.

I will also do my best not to make any statements that embarrass or
otherwise upset individuals or groups.

Please bear with me....  Last time I held a kingdom office, it was a
long time ago and the nets did not exist--at least not in so public a
form.

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)

Nothing in this missive constitutes an act or opinion of the Lord High
Constable of the Kingdom of the West unless otherwise explicitly stated.
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |            You!
510-823-5447                 |    Out of the Gene Pool!
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |
From: haslock@rust.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: timepieces
Date: 12 Jan 1993 23:33:13 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation - DECwest Engineering
NNTP-Posting-Host: rust.zso.dec.com

Since this thread is not quite dead yet, I will add a couple of observations.

A number of posters seem to have forgotten (or simply not been aware) that the
point on the horizon that the sun rises moves with the season. The worst case
for this is those lands north of the arctic circle where the sun goes from
never rising to never setting (within a 24 hour period). Thus a useful sundial
must be adjusted from day to day.

None of the fixed sundials that I saw in Europe were obviously adjustable but,
at the time I saw them, I was not interested in how accurately they measured
time. Thus I did not look for possible adjustments.

On the other hand, every reproduction portable sundial that I have seen has
included adjustments for the time of year. The one the I remember best had
a separate setting for each month of the year and two hour marks allowing
determination of the third, sixth and ninth hour of daylight.

	Fiacha
	Aquaterra, AnTir
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: u883161@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Alex Tewes)
Subject: need Info, organization of Bardic Guilds
Organization: University of Tasmania
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 06:55:20 GMT

Greetings All!

My good lady wife has recently become the Provost of the Guild of Entertainers
of the Principality of Lochac (West).  Being that way inclined, she wishes to
impose some order upon what has been so far a very amoebic congregation.

I would ask that any gentles with information about how similar Guilds are 
organized in their Kingdom/Principality please mail me direct about what to do
and what not to do.

In particular, I would be interested on any sane/effective way of ranking 
entertainers, or ways of recognizing a performer's standard.

I thank you for your forbearance.

Martin de Mont Blanc (mka Alex Tewes )                          

u883161@postoffice.utas.edu.au       	       	       	       	       	       	       	       	       	       	       	       	       	   
 
Shire of Ynys Fawr/ Lochac/ West       		(That is Tasmania, AUSTRALIA)                            

Purpure, four bendlets enhanced
and in base a Mullet of five, Or
From: dgreen@athena (David Greenebaum)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pennsic
Date: 13 Jan 1993 00:25:45 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization
NNTP-Posting-Host: athena.berkeley.edu

Cynthia Eldredge writes:
>I need DATE info for Pennsic immediately so that my lord and I may get syn-
>chronous vacation time.  Please E-MAIL ==ONLY== to ELDREDGE@UCF1VM.BITNET.
Well, I'm free then.  But are you sure your lord won't mind?  Maybe i
should ask my cousin along and we can make it a double-date?  <G, of
course!>

---------------------  Bjalfi Thordharson/College of St. Katherine/Province of
 |\  | |\  |\  |// |       the Mists/Principality of the Mists/West Kingdom
 | > | |\\ | \ |/  |   David Greenebaum/University of California/Berkeley, CA
 |<  | | \ |   |   |   dgreen@athena.berkeley.edu, dgreen@garnet.berkeley.edu
 | > | |   |   |   |
 |/  | |   |   |   |   "I make mistakes, but I am on the side of good -- by
---------------------  accident and happenchance." -- the Golux
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: cctimar@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu (Charles the clerk)
Subject: Re: authentic equipment
Organization: Shire of Glaedenfeld
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 08:18:22 GMT

To all upon the Rialto doth Charles the clerk send his greetings!

William de Corbie suggested making authentic equipment a requirement for
awards.  Graydon took exception, using the usual argument that making
anything "absolutely period" would be impossible anyway.

How about, "The Nordmark archer's award, the ... is awarded
to those who have demonstrated excellence in archery, who have
taught their craft, who have ..., ..., and who use equipment
that is more authentic than most other archers in the Principality."

If the award is considered desirable, the standards of authenticity will
begin to escalate.
--
    -- Charles, student, in Glaedenfeld, Meridies
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: nusbache@epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: antipathy to fencing
Organization: University of Toronto - Office of the Provost
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 19:13:24 GMT

In article <470-JNEWS-2.1@smylex.UUCP> Godfrey de Shipbrook <jlee@smylex.UUCP> writes:

>....  True, we in the SCA
>must wear the masks [what sane fencer WOULDN'T?],

I don't...oh, you said _sane_ fencer...

>but the style in which
>we fence more closely resembles the period rapier combat than modern
>collegiate/Olympic fencing.

And a horse more closely resembles a cow than does an iguana.  Yet to
the educated eye, the horse and the cow are easily distinguished.

Whatever that means.

Aryk Nusbacher



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: nusbache@epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: Fencing (was Re: Thinkwell; Drachenwald ideas; Alternate Crown Types)
Organization: University of Toronto - Office of the Provost
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 21:49:43 GMT

In article <1993Jan04.195259.1696@watson.ibm.com> mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:

>This is a good point at which to ask a question that's puzzled me for some
>time: Why does anyone object to fencing as an activity in the SCA?  No one
>is trying to force them to do it; why should they object if someone else
>does it?


As a non-Scadian Renaissance fencer I have opined that fencing doesn't
fit into the SCA.  The main reason:  the SCA's obsession with safety
and competition makes good fencing impossible.  Of course, what I
consider "good fencing" -- authentic, easygoing, and fun -- is not the
same as what other people consider "good fencing".

Example:  SCA ideas of safety and competition are incompatible with
using full-weight Renaissance fencing weapons.

Example:  SCA ideas of competition are incompatible with using
pre-1600 technique.

Example:  Fencing masks look very modern.

Wait a minute, I think we've had this discussion before.  Now Nick van
Leyden has to come out of the woodwork, and we ring our blades against
each other and set to fighting furiously ...

Aryk Nusbacher
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: wrsstu@sun.cc.westga.EDU (William Steinen)
Subject: Sumptuary Laws
Organization: The Internet
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 13:38:32 GMT

To the Rialto, greetings from Keighvan O'Cealaigh!

	In a recent posting, Henry Troup inquired about the existance of
sumptuary laws in the various Kingdoms.  I don't have my Kingdom Law on hand
at the moment, but I'm almost certain that Meridies has no such laws (other
than the usual reservations of crowns and white belts, and I'm not sure those
would count.  If such laws were passed, and if they resembled medieval sumptuary laws to any great extent, it would certainly raise the ire of some of our more
flamboyant non-nobility.
	On a totally non-related note: although I'm almost halfway across a
continent from the area in question, I've followed the "Bandit" thread with some interest.  The type of person in question is all-too-familiar to me; a few years ago most of the core members of my Shire left the SCA because of people who
behaved more-or-less like the gentle in question, and we've had some problems with them in my current (college-based) group.  I would be interested in finding
out how widespread this sort of problem member is and how other groups handle   them.

						Keighvan O'Cealaigh
						Freehold of FoolsHaven
						Meridies
From: x93turner@gw.wmich.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Greetings to and from Ansteorra
Date: 4 Jan 93 19:35:28 EST
Organization: Western Michigan University

Greetings from Valenty Drake, cadet to Don Gaspard of Ansteorra!

Greetings to anyone in Ansteorra that's reading this...I miss quite a few
people from back there but am also bored out of my mind here in the Midrealm.
(At least, I think that's where I am.)

Is there anyone around Western Michigan University???  I'm told there are
two cantons or shires here but I haven't been able to find them yet.  Also,
is there anyone around this area that practices what we call light fighting
in Ansteorra?  I'd really like someone to practice with.  :)
 
Paka,
Valentyn 
From: Dave.Aronson@p11.f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: History of the Rialto
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1993 12:07:44 -0500

Justin du Coeur (justin@inmet.camb.inmet.COM) writeth:

 JdC> The Rialto-as-we-know-it was created by Lord
 JdC> Danulf Donaldson, sometime in 1987.

[events implying passage of at least two years omitted]

 JdC> It was around this time that the two SCAnets started talking to each
 JdC> other. Around the time that Danulf was creating the Internet list,
 JdC> Simon des Beaux Eaux created the MEDIEVAL echo on Fidonet.

To be more precise, February 1988, along with Abram de Chez Lune Bleu (who has
not been heard from in quite some time).  The Medieval echo was inspired by a
non-echoed SCA discussion area on his BBS (now long defunct) that I discovered
while I was a user there before I became a sysop.

 JdC> The two were separate for a long time,
 JdC> although we very vaguely knew about each others' existence.

If memory serves, I hadn't found out about r.o.s until much later, tho I had
heard about the Digest within a few months.

 JdC> After some years, Simon proposed that the
 JdC> two groups be gated to one another.

Late 1989, if memory serves.

 JdC> There was a bit of controversy,
 JdC> because MEDIEVAL was a bit broader in its charter than the Rialto,

And more "laidback", and a few other differences.

 JdC> and several people (notably Danulf) didn't want to see the Rialto
 JdC> overwhelmed with discussion of other groups. So Simon created an
 JdC> SCA echo on Fido, and that got (gradually and rather erratically)
 JdC> gated to the Rialto.  I believe that there's more complexity than that
 JdC> to the Fido/Rialto link,

Actually, it's much simpler.  We brought alt.sca (later rec.org.sca) into
Fidonet and distributed it around.  The gateway site has changed from time to
time, including a few disappearing acts, but it seems to be stable now.

 JdC> but I believe most of that is individual
 JdC> Fido sites gatewaying themselves...

Nope.  Most of it is Fido sites getting it, directly or indirectly, from me; I
get it from our local gateway (blkcat).  (That may change, as I am considering a
business venture that would require direct access to Internet.)  There are
several other gateways that I know are getting it, but most of them are passing
it along to few if any other Fidonodes.

 JdC> That's most of the major high points, I think.

Pretty much.

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: 76206.2342@compuserve.COM (WILLIAM KYLE)
Subject: Is it broke?
Organization: The Internet
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 22:07:29 GMT

Is the digest broke or have I been dropped?

Cahan


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: cav@bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin)
Subject: Re: romance and authenticity
Reply-To: cav@bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 17:44:58 GMT

In article <9301112145.AA13576@math.bu.edu>, jeffs@math.bu.EDU (Jeff Suzuki) writes:
  
    stuff deleted...
|> 
|> 
|> To some extent.  The problem is that the romantic versions come from a
|> lot of different time periods, and most artists (e.g., writers) simply
|> transplanted their own neighbors (so to speak) back in time; i.e.,
|> they were being (gasp) inauthentic.  E.g., the historical Arthur
|> probably didn't wear chain mail, given that it was't around in 5th (?)
|> century Britain.  ....more deleted....

The technology was certainly in existence.
I don't have any references on this specific time period, but chainmail was
used extensively by the Roman's (I seem to recall that they learned to make it
from the Celts when they first invaded central Europe, but the mind grows
less nimble with the passing years).  I would not be surprised if there are
extant pieces of mail from this period.  Although it might not be unreasonable
to expect a historical Arthur to have worn mail (a byrnie of sorts
perhaps, forget the Roman term - Lorica somethingorother), it is unlikely that
he would have had access to the full suits of the Middle ages.  I do not know
whether or not the Arthurian romances contain any blatantly anachronistic armour
descriptions.  Non-specific references to mail or helms would not necessarily
be inauthentic.

Cheers, Balderik
From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: non-fighting rulers
Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1993 06:35:45

    Mackenzie wrote:

 C> It is us who make Royalty special becouse " WE ARE SPECIAL ".

    As in "Special Olympics" and "Special Education"....

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: vader@meryl.csd.uu.se ("]ke Eldberg")
Subject: Even Mongols may eventually "get it".
Organization: The Internet
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 03:13:34 GMT

Greetings from William de Corbie!

Buri Dogshin (Dennis O'Connor) wrote, apropos my efforts to
do something about the fantasy aspects of the SCA "system":

> People are tired of argueing about it. Some people never seem to
> "get it" : that their own personal view of what the SCA should
> be isn't shared by the majority of the people who make up the SCA,
> nor by the governing bodies of the SCA. People who do "get it"
> get tired of trying to enlighten those who don't after a few months.

To put it differently, there are some people who never seem to
"get it" : that if we ever stop questioning what the SCA is about,
and trying to find ways to improve it, this fine society will start
rotting. People who "get it" will never tire of trying to enlighten
those who don't. 

Thus, I think that your observation rests on reality; sociologists
have found, whether they have investigated a whole country or any
subset thereof, that there are 10% who are, in various ways, the
active and leading ones. The other 90% prefer to have things remain
"as always". They will grudgingly accept changes when such happen
-- and then the new situation will become their "as always", which
they absolutely don't want to change...

Majorities don't matter here; intellect and open minds do. The people
who make this Society live and thrive are those who have ideas about
its future, those who want to make something out of what they see.

This is why I am convinced that my efforts are not in vain. I will
contribute to a better future SCA, even if I have to drag those 90%
with me by the ears!

William

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes)
Subject: Re: Name
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 19:25:52 GMT

In article <726401403.F00002@ocitor.fidonet> Longshot@f19.n291.z1.fidonet.org (Longshot) writes:
>A node called Tim Of Angle coded to node Longshot,
>on 05 Jan 93  21:02:34, about Re: Name;
>
> L>    Could some one please define "Rialto"?   Sorry, had to ask.
>
> TOA> Name of the "main drag" in Venice.
>

No, No. The main drag in Venice is the smell, or the water, or maybe the
tourists. :)

Lothar

>lo'
>   O.K., thanks.   The only thing that I could find was "rial" which was 
>defined as "riches".
>   Off hand, why is the main drag in Venice called the Rialto?
>
>                                                  ~ Aindries
>
>
>... The Devil take the men that killed the dream that died too soon,
> * Origin: Calontir -- We Deliver. (1:291/19.0)


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: vader@meryl.csd.uu.se ("]ke Eldberg")
Subject: Atmosphere vs Living history
Organization: The Internet
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 00:37:38 GMT

Greetings from William de Corbie!

Grimkirk ap Greymoor wrote:

>Those that I have spoken to would make such a move toward legislating
>authenticity by decrying the status quo as undesirable and unauthentic,
>as well as maintaining that the SCA's main thrust IS authenticity and
>theatre. This contradicts Corpora's written statements to the contrary.
>Corpora states that ATMOSPHERE via research and recreation is the goal,
>and specifically states that the SCA is "living history" and NOT
>dramatic performance.

I think that it has come out abundantly clear in all previous Rialto
discussions of legislation vs encouragement, that most of us prefer
the latter. We have deliberately set a very low minimum level of
authenticity, and though most of us would want the SCA to be MUCH
more authentic than it is, I don't hear anyone calling for rules to
acheive this. Have *you* heard such calls?  

I do not quite understand why you perceive "living history" as being
in some way opposed to "authenticity"; but I may not have understood
your message correctly.

"Living history" as opposed to "dramatic performance" means that we
learn by doing, i.e. we are not a show company. The reason that this
distinction is made in Corpora is, at a guess, that the Corporation
needs to define itself in a way that supports its claim to be a non-
profit educational society.

Thus, I agree that authenticity in individuals is best acheived
by assistance and encouragement, not rules. But I do believe that
atmosphere via research and recreation is one of the chief goals
of the Society, together with learning and fun. Why should it not
be? Is there anything wrong with atmosphere?

William
From: Suze.Hammond@f56.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Suze Hammond)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: 1st Event For An Enthusiastic Teen
Date: 8 Jan 93 08:01:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: therose.726769892.AA00000

Well, if you caution your young friend that the only "magic" at SCA events
is in the "dream", and there are no trolls or experience points, He'll
probably be OK.  :-)

Just tell him to be as polite and gentlemanly as he would imagine a knight
to be, and to remember that we are none of us peasants, and knighthood is
earned. He should call the gentlefolk "milord" and "milady" unless he has
learned they really have reaned a rank, in which case it is "my Lord" and 
"my Lady" (small difference, but it means something) and to make a slight
bow to anyone wearing any sort of crown or coronet.

Too bad you can't be there at the beginning, but if he is polite and asks
questions of those not actively rushing about with pots of steaming food, 
or lines of dancers in tow, most will be happy to answer to the best of
their ability. You've arranged for garb and feast ware, so he won't stick
out in the crowd, and that should be fine for a first event.

(And be sure to tell him that although some SCA folk are willing to give
strong drink to young people "because it's period" he must not allow them
to do so, as if he gets in trouble it will cause the incautiously friendly
one, and perhaps his/her branch a lot of grief...not to mention the 
possibility of injury to himself! )

Tell him to sit back, observe, relax, and ask about what he doesn't know...

Moreach 

(I am over 50, but I was a comparative newbie only 3 years ago.
I know how it is....  ;)


 
... You can't have everything. Where would you put it?
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: nusbache@epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher)
Subject: Border Names (was Re: HELP! name searching.
Organization: University of Toronto - Office of the Provost
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 15:32:36 GMT

In article <18319@bcars664.bnr.ca> Henry.Troup@BNR.CA writes:

>I remember some allusion to Scots borderers for bynames that were both
>anti-social and often obscene.  The source was likely The Steel Bonnets,
>George MacDonald Fraser (I think, the author of Flashman, but this is
>non-fiction).  The only one that sticks in my mind is David No-Good-Priest.


_The Steel Bonnets:  The Story of the Anglo-Scottish Border Reivers_.
London:  Barrie and Jenkins, 1971.  Toronto:  Collins Harvill, 1986.

ISBN 0-00-272746-3

From p. 74:

But the most interesting nick-names, and the ones which in the
borderers obviously took great pleasure, were those descriptive and
often highly offensive appellations referring to personal appearance,
habits and behaviour.  Thus we find Curst Eckie, Ill Will Armstrong,
Fingerless Will Nixon, Nebless Clem Croser, the two Elliot brothers,
Archie and George, who were familiarly known as "Dog pyntle" and
"Buggerback", and an Armstrong called "Skinabake".  Names like these
last three probably owe themselves to nothing more than the Borderers'
delight in thinking up irrelevant and poetic obscenities to attach to
each other; Border children still bandy them about with disarming fluency.

On the other hand, one can guess how David Armstrong came to be known
as "Bangtail".  Exploits of a sterner kind are commemorated in names
like Ill-drowned Geordie, Archie Fire-the-Braes, Out-with-the-sword,
Gav-yt-hem, Crack-spear, and Cleave-the-crune.  These explain
themselves, but one wonders how a reiver came to be known as
Laird-give-me-little, or As-it-liuks, or Hen-harrow, or why the
nickname Sweet-milk was so popular.

Robert Bruce Armstrong, the Liddesdale historian, had a fine
collection of these names, many of them given above, and one cannot do
better than this representative selection:

Hob the king, Dand the man, Gib alangsyde, Hob-wait-about-him, Red Cloak,
Unhappy Anthone, Sow-tail, Ower-the-moss, Lang Will, Red Rowan,
Wantoun Sim, David-no-gude-priest, Evillwillit Sandie, Shag, Bull,
Lamb, Mouse, Sore John and Wynking Will.

End of quote.

Cheers,
Aryk "The Big Unpleasant-Looking Bastard from HQ Company" Nusbacher
From: Beth.Appleton@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Knitting
Date: 7 Jan 93 01:58:00 GMT


 JG> construct an article.  Nalebinding seems to be the 
 JG> basic technique used for 
 JG> Viking mittens and such, is much more appropriate 
 JG> for many of our earlyish 
 JG> SCA persona than knitting, and I can't find 
 JG> instructions on how to do it!  
 Once again do I bemoan the distance from this scribe to my library.  I 
 believe a book titled _Ancient_Danish_Textiles_ has a description of 
 nalebinding, with pictures.  I shall endeavor to remember to post the 
 rest of the book description, so that you can Interlibrary it with 
 greater ease. <hoping, of course, that you can do that in NZ>.  Remind 
 me if you don't see that post by sometime next week....
     Gwenllian Cwmystwyth
     Beth.Appleton@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca