HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg (Othman Ahmad)
Subject: Re: islam & ethnicity
Organization: Nanyang Technological University - Singapore
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 04:38:12 GMT

Ron Evans (revans@euclid.ucsd.edu) wrote:
:            renouncing Islam can also be death, according to the
:            hadith posted earlier under the title "Islam and
: 	   apostacy".  
That post is bogus because it is against the quran and other hadith.
Please be careful what people post to you.
You must have second opinions and colloborative evidence e.g. which hadith
was he referring to.

: -- 
: Ron Evans (revans@math.ucsd.edu)

--
Othman bin Ahmad, School of EEE,
Nanyang Technological University, Singapore 2263.
Internet Email: eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg
Bitnet Email: eoahmad@ntuvax.bitnet

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: kgivon@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (karen lee givon)
Subject: Re: jews as a race
Organization: Indiana University
Distribution: talk
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 05:47:02 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.1777.23049@channel1> "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:
>To: David Marc Nieporent
>
>>#I'm sorry, Danny, but I don't think you read the passage
>>#carefully, and your responses are inadequate. Try to explain away
>>#the meaning of "pure and undefiled LINEAGE of Jacob," "OFFSPRING
>>#of Isaac," "ISSUE of Ishmael," and "SCIONS of Isaac" in the
>>#following passages, which are both racialist and racist:
>
> DM> And George Washington was the father of our country.
>
> DM> If you can't understand metaphors...
>
>I think I have some ability to understand metaphors: do you?
>
>If the United States had defined itself as predominantly a
>Christian Anglo-Saxon nation (but one which admitted a few
>converts each year, of course), and if the American religious
>establishment had strongly discouraged any intermarriage between
>the holy seed of George Washington and unchosen outsiders, then
>your analogy might carry some weight. But the United States
>doesn't operate under that kind of ideological and political
>system, does it, David?

I think you misunderstand the intermarriage thing.  Jews don't
discourage intermarriage because of some feeling of superiority, (in my
opinion).  In places where Jews are a minority Judaism is the religion
that will take a back seat in 'mixed' marriage.  The biggest problem is
the religion of the children who come from the marriage.  What religion
will they be?  In most cases it's easier to allow the children to be
like everyone else.  It would be too easey to allow the children to
follow the religion of the majority.  I have come to understand this to
be the biggest reason for discouraging intermarriage.  Anyway, this is
my reason for not wanting to marry a non Jew, not that I feel superior
to non Jews.
 
Also, you should know that Muslim women are not allowed to marry non
Muslim men because the children would not be Muslim, as that is
transmitted through the father.  Do you think that is wrong also?  Will
you now start criticizing Islam for that?   

Keren

>---
>  OLX 3.01 31-2557  The machines we have built for the end.
>--
>Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA
>
From: ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: ITERFADA WATCH
Date: 21 Jan 93 17:41:42 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

The Inrwefada is a wave of Inter-Arab violence , parallel to the
intifada against the Jews.
Bellow find the INTERFADA death toll.

( Through January 10 1993 )

 Killed for "cooperation with the authorities"    769

 killed in internment camps                        43

 killed incidentally in actions against Jews        6
                                                 ____
  TOTAL                                           818


We shall overcome     Gideon Ehrlich     ERETZ YISRAEL
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.greek,alt.news.macedonia,soc.culture.turkish,soc.history
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: Ellemann-Jensen on Macedonia
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 21:46:14 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <Jan24.224231.27648@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> irakliot@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Leo J. Irakliotis) writes:

>single recruiting camp of the Greek Army, but that's not the point. As you
>have already seen, Balkans is a quite unstable region still, thanks to the
>civilization brought in by Turks for about 200-400 years. Any military

Yup. The question that might come to mind at this point is how the 
minorities in Turkiye responded to the transition from the multi-national
Ottoman Empire to the national Turkish Republic, whether or not they 
thought the rights granted to them were sufficient during the process of
rehabilitation in question. The representatives of the Great Powers in
Turkiye had also devoted themselves to the study of these subjects. In a
memorandum dated 23 November 1925 which he presented to the U.S. Department
of State, Admiral Bristol remarked that the modernization and Westernization
which Turkiye had begun implementing recently, was exerting an important 
influence upon the situation of the minorities. Bristol wrote that two choices
were left for the minorities in Turkiye: 'to adapt to laicization' or 'to
leave the country.' He also stated that Turks had the tendency of regarding 
religion as a matter of conscience just as in the United States, and to
assign it to the personal life of the individual. According to Bristol, this
approach of the Turks was logical, and, more than that, worthy of praise.
He also believed that the minorities in Turkiye were gradually going to be
assimilated in the national Turkish culture under the impact of the processes
of modernization and Westernization.

When evaluated within this framework, no Turk can help agreeing with Bilsel's
evaluation below:

'Even if the Lausanne Treaty had brought only this to country, it would be
 sufficient for the nation's infinite and undying gratitude and love. The
 result achieved is that grand and valuable. The savings of Turks in the
 political arena as well as in the battle field will live with all its 
 memories in the heart of the Turkish nation and of each Turk.'

Serdar Argic

                           'We closed the roads and mountain passes that 
                            might serve as ways of escape for the Turks 
                            and then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
                           'In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists 
                            a single Turkish soul.'    (Sahak Melkonian)


Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:26171 soc.culture.arabic:6891
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: BUSH BOMBS ISLAMIC CONFERENCE TODAY
Date: 24 Jan 93 18:15:59 GMT
Article-I.D.: das.1993Jan24.181559.5072
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University

In article <C19x71.MMo@dscomsa.desy.de> Hallam@zeus02.desy.de writes:
>In article <1993Jan19.231229.28215@das.harvard.edu>, adam@endor.uucp (Adam
>Shostack) writes:

>|>I have seen no motivation for attacking a hotel in downtown Baghdad
>|>with a single cruise missile.  While the games Bush is playing may be
>|>juvenile, I don't think he would order a hotel attacked.
>|>
>|>Would you like to propose a theory for attacking a hotel full of
>|>foriegn journalists?

>Adam is under an unfortunate delusion, he beleives that George Bush is a
>reasonable, honest politician with honourable motives.

	If you're going to say I suffer from delusions, at least
respect my intelegence.  I do not believe he is a reasonable person, I
do not believe there are any honest politicians, and I don't know of
anyone with altogether "honorable" motives.

	What I asked for, and have yet to see, is a *reason* Bush
would attack the hotel.  I understand that if one exists, he might
very well do it, but I have yet to hear of such a motive.

>If George Bush thought that bombing a hotel was to his advantage then he would
>have it done. Don't be mislead by the propaganda about how great the
>intelligence services are, they managed to bomb a baby food factory and have
>always refused toadmit the possibility of a mistake.

	I think that you miss the point of my posting.  I don't say
Bush was a good nor an honorable president.  I don't think he would
have been stopped by the presense of civilians.  I do, however, fail
to see why he would bomb the hotel.

	Do you have a theory as to why he would drop bombs on the
hotel?


>Side thought, how many T.p.m posters do you think the CIA holds files on?

None.  The NSA holds the files, since it is allowed by law to monitor
international conversation.




Adam Shostack 				       adam@das.harvard.edu

"If we had a budget big enough for drugs and sexual favors, we sure
wouldn't waste them on members of Congress..."   -John Perry Barlow
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:26314 soc.culture.soviet:12436
From: backon@vms.huji.ac.il
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: jews as a race
Date: 23 Jan 93 21:22:42 GMT
Distribution: talk,world
Organization: The Hebrew University of Jerusalem

In article <1993Jan21.1777.23048@channel1>, "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:
> To: Josh Backon
>
> I'm quickly trying to catch up on a meg of messages, so this will
> be brief.
>
> Let's all try to keep our cool, ok? Let's try to treat one
> another with mutual respect and friendliness, and I hope you will
> try to help me understand what the connections between religion
> and ethnicity in Israel are all about.
>
> I don't think I'm a stupid person, but so far I cannot make heads
> or tails of the various explanations I have seen so far, and I am
> trying my damnedest.
>
> You mentioned a few converts who are prominent in Israeli life.
> (I note that two of them are wives are prominent Israelis, but we
> will let that pass.)
>
> I still have the impression that converts occupy a small role in
> the high levels of the Israeli government, the rabbinical
> establishment, and the American Jewish establishment, for that
> matter. The power in these institutions is overwhelmingly
> concentrated in the hands of ethnic Jews.
>

The same way that the Irish tend to be over-represented among archbishops and
cardinals in American dioceses :-)



> Shamir was not a religious man, according to what I have read.
> Like Ben-Gurion, he may have even been an atheist. Certainly he
> wasn't an observant Jew. Like Jabotinsky, his mentor, he was a
> Jewish patriot in the ETHNIC sense, just like an Italian or
> German might be an Italian or German patriot.
>
> The Israeli power structure is overwhelmingly controlled by
> ethnic Jews, many of whom have no religious beliefs whatever.
>
> Is not Israel an ethnocentric state, despite the policy of
> admitting a few converts each year? And don't those converts have
> to accept and submit to a system which is controlled by ethnic
> Jews, and which is dedicated to their interests and agenda?
>

Who *else* should control the system ? Martians ? Immigrants from Outer
Mongolia ? Navajo Indians ?

> If I misunderstand, please explain. Enlighten me.
>
> Thanks,
>

Josh
backon@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL

> Wayne
> ---
>  ~ OLX 3.01 31-2557 ~ Knights Templar Supercomputer Network
> --
> Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA
>
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:26416 soc.culture.greek:12679 alt.news.macedonia:318 soc.culture.turkish:15186 soc.rights.human:5029
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: (Martillo) Re: BUSH BOMBS ISLAMIC CONFERENCE
Date: 22 Jan 93 22:18:30 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.mideast
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <1jo0riINNguv@life.ai.mit.edu> steel@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Nick Steel) writes:
>
>Martillo, you are an ASSHOLE.  Why in hell did you begin insulting
>the man with the above ruthless idiotic statements while
>he's just asking questions in order to make a point.   
>You need to just shut up or put up instead of just insulting people,
>that's all you're good at.  Damn you, just shut up, what
>an idiot you are.


Obviously it is Martillo's intention to incite and offend posters
with his sarcastic style and superlative attitude.  (You still
are not keen to this yet?)

You just fell into his little spider net by becoming so angry
with him.  That is what he enjoys the most.  Now he can slowly
devour you as a tasty morsel.


 **       *         *       * 
 __.      *         *      * * 
(_/(_____(_)___|___(_)____|_|_|
             **
From: steel@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Nick Steel)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: conversion to judaism
Date: 26 Jan 1993 09:48:09 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization
Distribution: talk,world
NNTP-Posting-Host: hal.ai.mit.edu

In article <1993Jan25.232425.20298@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> wmuhanna@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Waleed A Muhanna) writes:
>In article <1993Jan23.214911.219@vms.huji.ac.il> backon@vms.huji.ac.il writes:
>>In article <1993Jan21.1777.23052@channel1>, "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:
>>> to: Josh Backon
>>>
>>>         Each Israeli must carry an identity card, which has a
>>>         line indicating "nationality."  One would think that an
>>>         Israeli citizen would have the word "Israeli" on that
>>>         line. Not so. The nationality of any Jew is "Jew;" the
>>>         nationality of an Israeli Arab--even one who has lived
>>>         for decades in, say, Jaffa--is "Arab." In 1970 a Jewish


So what?  What's big deal?   It is very obvious  that it
is a non-democratic system.  It is a system based on theft
of land from the native.  A system created by the theif
himself.  And you expect justice?  

I don't blame them for that.  They know they stole the land
from the natives, so they have to identify the native in case
of revolution.  It is a self pre-caution that any thief would do.


You shouldn't be arguing about the Arab in Jaffa, you should
be arguing about the Arab that was thrown out of Jaffa and
is living in refugee camps where a German took his home
in Jaffa.

>So what?  The IDs are not made for use by outsiders; they're made for use 
>inside Israel where those people live.   You know this damn well, Dr. Backon.

I wonder how they can claim democracy (THE ONLY F****** SO CALLED 
DEMOCRACY IN THE MIDDLE EAST) and tag people with racial remarks.

They are as un-democratic as Lebanon.  Lebanon writes the religion
on the ID (the same I guess).

I wonder how the black Jews of Ethiopia got tagged as on 
their IDs.

jle

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: an3205@anon.penet.fi (ROI)
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Organization: Anonymous contact service
X-Anonymously-To: talk.politics.mideast
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 19:55:55 GMT

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
To find out more about the anon service, send mail to help@anon.penet.fi.
Due to the double-blind system, any replies to this message will be anonymized,
and an anonymous id will be allocated automatically. You have been warned.
From: jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Most Arab countries won't sign chemical weapons treaty
Date: 22 Jan 93 11:00:29 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <765363d6710747t277@witsend.uucp> dcs@witsend.tnet.com (D. C. Sessions) writes:

[re: use of nuclear weapons]

->  Tragic for many reasons.  First of all, of course, is the loss of
->  life, a horror beyond words.  Besides that, I love the US too much
->  to want such a stain on our hands.

Is there room alongside the one you got from Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

By the way, do you want to repost this to misc.kids, just to show how
anti-American I am?



-- 
===Jeremy Henderson===jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk=          

Unauthorised access is a criminal offence under The Computer Misuse Act 1990.
If you are a British Airways employee, disconnect NOW.
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:26357 soc.culture.greek:12626 soc.culture.turkish:15119 soc.rights.human:5018
From: idfriedm@marconi.uwaterloo.ca (id friedman)
Subject: Re: conversion to judaism
Organization: University of Waterloo
Distribution: talk,world
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 03:01:46 GMT

In article <1k31cpINNh30@life.ai.mit.edu> steel@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Nick Steel) writes:
>In article <1993Jan25.232425.20298@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> wmuhanna@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Waleed A Muhanna) writes:
>>In article <1993Jan23.214911.219@vms.huji.ac.il> backon@vms.huji.ac.il writes:
>>>In article <1993Jan21.1777.23052@channel1>, "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:
>>>> to: Josh Backon
>>>>
>>>>         Each Israeli must carry an identity card, which has a
>>>>         line indicating "nationality."  One would think that an
>>>>         Israeli citizen would have the word "Israeli" on that
>>>>         line. Not so. The nationality of any Jew is "Jew;" the
>>>>         nationality of an Israeli Arab--even one who has lived
>>>>         for decades in, say, Jaffa--is "Arab." In 1970 a Jewish
>
>
>So what?  What's big deal?   It is very obvious  that it
>is a non-democratic system.  It is a system based on theft
>of land from the native.  A system created by the theif
>himself.  And you expect justice?  
>
  Are you talking about the U.S.A? Israelis had bought a lot of
  land ( frquently from absentee landlords) and had the country
  ** approved ** by the U.N

>I don't blame them for that.  They know they stole the land
>from the natives, so they have to identify the native in case
>of revolution.  It is a self pre-caution that any thief would do.
>
>
>You shouldn't be arguing about the Arab in Jaffa, you should
>be arguing about the Arab that was thrown out of Jaffa and
>is living in refugee camps where a German took his home
>in Jaffa.
>
>>So what?  The IDs are not made for use by outsiders; they're made for use 
>>inside Israel where those people live.   You know this damn well, Dr. Backon.
>
>I wonder how they can claim democracy (THE ONLY F****** SO CALLED 
>DEMOCRACY IN THE MIDDLE EAST) and tag people with racial remarks.
>
>They are as un-democratic as Lebanon.  Lebanon writes the religion
>on the ID (the same I guess).
>
>I wonder how the black Jews of Ethiopia got tagged as on 
>their IDs.
>
>jle
>


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky)
Subject: Irgun (was Re: Freedom fighter or Terrorist)
Organization: Somewhere East or Somewhere West
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 20:06:46 GMT

In article <1k1sasINNkn1@morrow.stanford.edu>, AS.VXF@forsythe.stanford.edu (Vic Filler) writes:
|> 
|> In article <1jth0bINNd25@manuel.anu.edu.au>,
|> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:
|> >
|> > The large number of acts of pure indiscriminate
|>       ^^^^^^^^^^^^
|> >terror, such as setting off bombs in public places frequented by Arabs,
|> >seem to have been largely forgotten.
|> 
|> 
|> I must confess to being among those who have largely forgotten the
|> large number of acts of indiscrimate terror by the Irgun.
|> 
|> So here's a real softball question:  could you list a few that your
|> researches have turned up?
|> 
|> This is a sincere question--I am always eager to learn something
|> new.  (Although I have to be frank and add that the rest of your
|> posting about the Lechi, Irgun, Deir Yassin, etc., which I did not
|> quote above, is not what I would call high quality information or
|> thinking.  Nor, come to think of it, is any of what you usually
|> post.  So I'm not expecting anything either factual or astonishing.
|> But maybe I'll be surprised.)
|> 
|> Thanks,
|> 
|> Vic

Well, I am not Brendan, but I can help you out with this one. Here is
one of the acts of "terror" (so called by the Brittish I would assume)
of which the Irgun was responsible:

-----
The Brittish (circa 1947) had a long standing policy of explaining
their political views to dissidents with the help of that wonderous
teaching tool - the whip. Thus, when Irgun fighters were captured, the
Brittish would often publically whip these men in order to convince
them of the futility of their cause. Surprisingly enough, Irgun high
command did not take a liking to this particular Brittish policy.

In order to convince the Brittish of the incorrectness of their
political persuasion methods, the Irgun threatened to kidnap and
consequently whip several Brittish officers in the case that any further
Jewish soldiers would be so degradingly treated in their own homeland.
The Brittish did not take this threat particularly seriously and
continued with their whipping policy unchanghed.

The Irgun then proceeded to carry out its promise. The following day
the Brittish were incensed at such attrocious behaviour on the part of
the "Irgun terrorists". In England, the media could not contain its
utter flabbergastion at what was heretofor unconceivable - Brittish
military men (and officers no less) had been subjected to the same
sort of treatment that the Brittish themselves had brought upon the
Irgun fighters.

Following this particular episode, whipping ceased to be such a
favorite and oft utilized method of the Brittish army in Palestine.
-----

If you would like further examples of the "terrorist ways" of the
Irgun, I would be more than happy to post more. For a fascinating and
in depth account of the struggle of the Irgun freedom fighters, I
would stroungly recommend any interested party to read Menachem
Begin's "The Revolt".

Harry.