HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: edi@edefix.han.de (E. v. Pappenheim)
Subject: Re: Bootable floppy
Organization: Private Coherent Site
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 23:34:35 GMT

X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

dfilip@colorne.UUCP wrote:
: I need something explained to me :
: 
: I am attempting to build a stand-alone boot floppy, so that if my hard disk
: crashes or is replaced, I will have something to boot from.
: 
: I have performed the following steps :
: 
: 1. fdformat /dev/fha0
: 2. mkfs -b /conf/boot.fha /dev/fha0 2400
: 3. mount /dev/fha0 /f0
: 4. (copy a bunch of files, including tboot, coherent, bin/sh, bin/sync,
:    etc/init, etc/brc, etc/drvld.all, and conf/kbd/*)
: 5. umount /dev/fha0
: 6. Reboot
: 
: Although when I reboot I am booting off of the floppy, the system executes off
: of the hard disk and goes into multi-user mode (/etc/brc is executed off
: of the hard disk, and the one of the floppy is ignored).
: 
: My concern is if the hard disk is damaged or replaced, will I be able to
: do anything from the floppy (i.e., run badscan, mkfs, restor, cpio, etc.)
: or will the system still try to use the hard disk (at0?) as the root
: file system and die ? Why dosn't it see the floppy as the root device ?
: (although I think the answer is that it is configured as part of the kernal,
: that means that the kernal is ONLY useful when the hardware is intact !).
: 
: Yes, I do realize that I would need to copy whatever utilities I needed to
: the floppy, but I am not sure if I could get to them because once the system
: boots /dev/fha0 is NOT mounted.
: 
: Can anyone please explain this to me ?
: 
: Thanks,
: 
: Dave.

The kernel on the floppy still has it's rootdev and pipedev variables
set to your harddisk. You'll have to patch the kernel to the values of
your floppydrive. See the lexicon or manpage for 'patch' for more
details :-)

Ecki
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eckebrecht von Pappenheim 	Eleonorenstr. 17        3000 Hannover 91
UUCP: edi@edefix.han.de			     Tel: (Voice) +49 511 443755
      ...!unido!horga!agsc!edefix!edi
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: tporczyk@novell.com (Tony Porczyk)
Newsgroups: comp.os.coherent
Subject: Space requirements with the future TCPIP and vm
Date: 8 Oct 92 15:31:25 GMT
Organization: Novell, Inc.

I understand that network support and virtual memory is coming soon
to Coherent.  Before I install the copy I just purchased i would like
to find out how much space will be required for the new functionality
coming with the next release.  I wanted to set up 100 MB now.  Will
40 MB be enough in the future for the OS (I want to keep 30 for data,
10 for swap and 20 for programs)?

Thanks,

tony
Newsgroups: comp.os.coherent
From: edi@edefix.han.de (E. v. Pappenheim)
Subject: Re: coherent on second harddisk... possible???
Organization: Private Coherent Site
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 23:35:48 GMT

X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

mdewinter@vms.eurokom.ie wrote:
: Hi,
: I would like to know if it is possible to set up coherent on a second harddisk
: I'm having a 486, 8Mb RAM, 200 Mb harddisk (which is almost full), running
: dr dos 6.0
: I plan to buy a second harddisk, and install coherent there.
: Does anyone has experience, advise, etc. about that?
: All responces welcome.
: Guy Van Houtte
: E-mail fhcaa79@cc1.kuleuven.ac.be
: or reply to this forum

No problem, Coherent boots nicely from the secon drive.

Ecki
-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eckebrecht von Pappenheim 	Eleonorenstr. 17        3000 Hannover 91
UUCP: edi@edefix.han.de			     Tel: (Voice) +49 511 443755
      ...!unido!horga!agsc!edefix!edi
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.os.coherent
Subject: using kermit or ckermit
From: Bret.Johnson@p1.f1110.n226.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bret Johnson)
Date: Wed, 07 Oct 92 04:17:47 EST
Organization: FidoNet node 1:226/1110.1 - Flying High!, Marietta OH

BUCHANAN TIMOTHY E of 1:226/20 wrote to All of 1:226/1110.1
on <Oct 06 at 02:09>

 BTE> From: buchanan@rintintin.Colorado.EDU (BUCHANAN TIMOTHY E)
 BTE> Newsgroups: comp.os.coherent 
 BTE> Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

 BTE> I have an account on the University computer system which gives me ftp,
 BTE> and telnet but I am unable to transfer files to my machine. Some help is 
 BTE> requested on using kermit or Ckermit to transfer files, either as a
stand
 BTE> alone or when running minicom.

 BTE> I tried starting Ckermit on the host, told it what file to send, and it 
 BTE> said to give my Ckermit a RECEIVE command. I shelled out from minicom,
 BTE> and tried to start Ckermit, but it failed due I guess to the port being 
 BTE> busy.

 BTE> How do I get this to work?

 BTE> Thanks much,

Timothy,


  I think that in  Minicom it has a link built in for Kermit so you 
  would not have to shell out to try to run ckermit..

  If you just use Ckermit to call that system and start there ckermit
  downlaod then on your end your would do a ctrl + \ + c to get to the 
  ckermit interactive mode and then type in receive foo.tar.Z .......

  Hope this help a little..

         Bret.Johnson@p1.f1110.n226.z1.Fidonet.Org

--  
Bret Johnson via cmhGate - Net 226 fido<=>uucp gateway Col, OH
UUCP: ...!n8emr!bluemoon!cmhgate!1110.1!Bret.Johnson
INET: Bret.Johnson@p1.f1110.n226.z1.FIDONET.ORG
From: udo@umunk.GUN.de (Udo Munk)
Newsgroups: comp.os.coherent
Subject: Re: List of Objects in Kernel
Date: 10 Oct 92 02:37:04 GMT
Organization: Udo Munk's private BBS
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

, Carsten Deutschmann (deutschm@lucky.lion.de) wrote:
: Hi folks,
: 
: is there a official list of the kernel-objects and their meanings.
: 
: At this point I do only now about _CBAUD, but I assume, that there are
: more of them, and may be useful, if I knew about them.

Yes, in the documentation of the device driver kit. Please notice that
the driver kit for 4.0 isn't available yet, but the docs of the 3.2
driver kit are usable.
--
Udo Munk     | voice:      +49 2131 275348             | uucp: +49 2131 278869
Oberstr. 21  | mail :      udo@umunk.GUN.de            |     2400/1200/300 8N1
4040 Neuss 1 | ...!{mcshh,smurf,unido}!easix!umunk!udo | MYNAME=bbsuser
Fed. Rep. of | CompuServe: 100021,2515                 | login: uucp
Germany      | first get /usr/spool/uucppublic/info    | pwd:   public
From: root@rgm.com (System Administrator)
Newsgroups: comp.os.coherent
Subject: Wnews
Date: 12 Oct 1992 02:17:06 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

I'm intrigued by talk of a ready to run news package!

After weeks of struggle, I have used my very limited knowledge of Unix
communications/programming to kinda-sorta get news working on my
Coherent 4.0 system.  I managed to get Cnews working for receiving news
(unable to post to the net - darn half-ported sendbatches).  Managed to
get 'nn' to work too. (tiny struggle with new nn users).

I'd be thoroughly excited it I could take this new ready-to-run Wnews
package and trash my brain-damaged Cnews set-up.  In doing this, what
will I need to keep in mind?  Give me a head start.  I need to get all
psyched up to do this again. :>

Novice power!

(note article posted via Email gateway to dodge sendbatches)

Thanks!
-- 
---------------------------------------------------------->
Ray Mendonsa ---- root@rgm.com ---- Admin., rgm.com ------>
---------------------------------------------------------->
From: mike@array.com (Mike Willett)
Newsgroups: comp.os.coherent
Subject: FAQ outline note and general comments
Keywords: FAQ Coherent Notes
Date: 12 Oct 92 18:17:39 GMT
Organization: Array Microsystems, Colorado Springs, CO. USA


	Greetings!


	Here is the new format I have been working on for the FAQ.

	It is primarily broken up into three sections now:

	1) FAQ.general addresses misc or questions of a general issue,
	 
	2) FAQ.features addresses features of 4.0 for the most part,

	3) FAQ.tech addresses technical issues of Coherent.

	The technical FAQ will probably be the one that splits (again).
	I think a 4.0 becomes a more mature product, and more code is
	ported to 4.0 that is not able to run on 3.2, the differences
	will warrant two versions. I believe there are already enough
	differences between the two based on installation alone to
	warrant the two separate FAQ.tech files. The technical infomation
	and general information FAQs still need more 4.X flavor, some
	will be put in this weekend, and I will probably post the 
	update around the 15th.

	I finally have my 4.0.1 rev of Coherent installed.  For fun,
	I installed it twice.  The first time was on a virgin IDE 
	drive, and the install went well.  The second was over the top
	of the existing 3.2 release as an update.  I have made some 
	notes about the two installs and will post them a bit later.
	Overall, I really like the 32 bit release, (Virtual consoles
	have added a big + for me!) although it still seems a bit disk
	intensive even with my 4 Megs of RAM. I will continue to work
	on the Technical FAQ as my install gets more mature.

	Following this note are three FAQs outlined above.  It looks
	like one of my jobs will be slowing down now, and I may be able
	to work on this with my eyes open for a while.  :)  As always,
	I look forward to your input, flames, rocks, bits, to help make
	this a better FAQ.  Please puruse the files for any mistakes.
	If you feel the slicing and dicing of the FAQ is not a good 
	idea let me know!

	Best Regards!  --Mike
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
mike@array.com              So much fun, so little time to enjoy it....
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: brian@panix.com (Brian Childs)
Newsgroups: comp.os.coherent
Subject: lex dumps core
Date: 11 Oct 92 15:40:29 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix & Internet, NYC


I have just installed Coherent 4.0.1 on my 386.

I was trying to create a simple lex program, but whenever I try
to do a match using a repetition character (* or +) the compiled lex
program dumps core.

for example:
------- test.lex ----------------
%%
hello	printf("hello found\n");
a*	printf("a's found\n");
-----------------------------------

after issuing
1) lex test.lex
2) cc lex.yy.c -ll -o ltest
3) ltest

(I enter this as stdin)           (lex responds)
hello                             hello found
aaa                               **** CORE DUMP ****

has anyone else noticed this behavior ??
if so, what is the fix.

Brian.
Newsgroups: comp.os.coherent
From: hcp@csx.cciw.ca (H.C. Pulley)
Subject: Re: Help; *SLOW* I/O
Organization: Canada Centre for Inland Waters
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 12:15:23 GMT

In article <1992Oct12.094145.13782@cadlab.sublink.org> albani@cadlab.sublink.org (Lanfranco Albani) writes:
>kestas@lith.UUCP (Kestutis Sliupas) writes:
>
>:	Is there any reason why disk I/O would be incredibly
>:slow with Coherent? When I am copying big (5M) files from one
>:directory to another, the system slows to a crawl. Is there
>:any parameter to tweak, or an updated HD driver? 
>:	System: 386-25 4Mb 130Mb IDE
>
>Also on my system.
>It is a plain vanilla 386sx, with an 170 Mb Imprimis IDE drive.
>Both have a 800~900 Kb/sec (from Coretest under Ms-Dos) peak
>transfer rate, with an average of 30 Kb/sec (from a Turbo-Pascal
>test program that read&write 2048 512 bytes buffers).
>
>I've ran Iozone under Coherent 4.0.1, and the performance was about
>30~70 Kb/sec.

This means that iozone under Coherent did as well as your Pascal program under 
DOS.

>I'm rather disappointed, because Coherent use 900 buffers (450 Kb,
>I suppose) for disk caching, and it was several times slower than
>any unix machine I use at work.

Iozone is designed to blow caches.  It wants to determine the raw disk speed 
of your machine, not the memory -> memory transfer rate of the disk buffers.

But try the cache sometime.  It really does work!  Play empire, which writes
out a 500K save file every few rounds.  If you don't use anything else on the 
machine, it doesn't go to disk until a round or two later, and it does it 
concurrently!  The disk buffer code seems to work well.

But you are correct that the disks are somewhat slow.  When I run iozone under
DOS, I get much better results than when under Coherent.  I would hazard a
guess that the seek algorithm is wrong?  On IDE drives (everyone with slow disk
access seems to have an IDE) the heads, cylinders and sectors are translated.
If Coherent is trying to optimize seeks with translated disk parameters it 
probably won't work very well.

>Ok, I not want the 2 Mb/sec sustained performance of the
>HP9000/7xx, but a 200~300 kb/sec on an idle machine was that I
>expected from my hardware.

I want the 8 MB/sec sustained rate of the Cyber 4680 here!  (If you're gonna 
ask, you might as well ask high?!...).  (And yes, this machine is running a
UN*X variant).

>There is some kernel tuning to perform?
>If MWC tell us what kernel variable are involved, some people can
>try some benchmarking (me too).

If you find out, please let me know.

Harry
-- 
          hcp@csx.cciw.ca           | This message    | It takes all kinds,
    hcpiv@grumpy.cis.uoguelph.ca    | released to the | and to each his own.
------------------------------------| PUBLIC DOMAIN.  | This thought in mind,
 Stay away from the DOS side, Luke! |                 | I walk alone.
From: ralf@ark.abg.sub.org (Ralf Stephan)
Newsgroups: comp.os.coherent
Subject: Re: Mix Multi-C
Date: 11 Oct 92 09:39
Organization: Magick Shoppe, Gurth City

marcelo@deadzone.princeton.edu (Marcelo Gallardo) writes:
> 
> 	If you need an ANSI C compiler and support, why don't you just
> 	grab the GCC port. That should be ANSI enough.

Now, that's good news!  Where is it?

--ralf
(trying to teach cc1 to not dump core...)
Newsgroups: comp.os.coherent
From: klovatt@klnet.UUCP (Keith Lovatt)
Subject: Re: inews
Organization: Lugroid Enterprises
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 04:50:44 GMT
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

kilroy@acme.gen.nz (earthbound misfit, I) writes:
: klovatt@klnet.UUCP (Keith Lovatt) writes:
: > 
: > It's more than just inews, it's also anne.jones and defhdrs.awk. Here
: > they are: Also, you need to set /etc/ATclock to be all executable.
: 
: Not necessarily, it depends on how you generate your message IDs. I
: modified my C News to generate "traditional" message IDs, the Coherent
: port was by default making slightly different ones (I think with date).
: This can be done with a bit of script hacking, and I can post these if
: there's interest.
: 
: However, I'm now using bits of Brendan Kehoe's speedup kit that
: reimplements some stuff in C. I'm using the anne.jones replacement (which
: also replaces defhdrs.awk) here.
: 

I'd definately be interested in the C implementations. Anybody know where
they can be found?

Keith.
-- 
Keith Lovatt                 	|	Scarborough, Ontario, Canada
r-node.gts.org!klnet!klovatt	|	Phone: +1 416 293 0292
doe.utoronto.ca!klnet!klovatt	|    "You can never find a Lugroid
klovatt@terranet.cts.com	|	when you really need one"
From: sje@xylos.ma30.bull.com (Steven J. Edwards)
Subject: Chess software source kit at raven
Reply-To: sje@xylos.ma30.bull.com
Organization: Bull HN, Worldwide Information Systems, Billerica, Mass., USA
Distribution: comp
Date: 15 Oct 92 14:59:48

I have recently uploaded the 1992.10.11 version of the SAN Kit
(Standard Algebraic Notation) chess C source programming toolkit to
the pub/coherent/incoming32 directory at the raven ftp site.  It is
named "san.tar.Z" and is 81219 bytes long.

This version, and probably all future versions, is written using ANSI
C function prototypes.  Therefore, it will not compile directly using
the supplied old style K&R C compiler from MWC.  However, it should be
compilable using gcc (whenever it arrives) or other ANSI compliant C
compilers.  Those with extra time to burn could convert a private copy
back to the earlier standard.

 [The above opinions expressed are my own; not necessarily held by others.]
      == Steven J. Edwards           Bull HN Information Systems Inc. ==
      == (508) 294-3484              300 Concord Road         MS 820A ==
      == sje@xylos.ma30.bull.com     Billerica, MA 01821          USA ==
"That Government which Governs the Least, Governs Best." -- Thomas Jefferson
From: ben@bailey.UUCP (Ben Bailey)
Subject: Re: doscp problem
Newsgroups: comp.os.coherent
Date: 15 Oct 92 00:17:18 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Ben Bailey's Home..Tampa Fl.

buchanan@rintintin.Colorado.EDU (BUCHANAN TIMOTHY E) writes:
> I copied some files from my Coho partition to DOS, using doscp. However, I
> typed doscp -b *.gif c:/temp/ instead of doscp -b *.gif c:/temp and it
> copied the files to a subdir of temp evidently using the null char as dir name.

Yup, the dos?? commands are pretty dumb when it comes to verifying dos legal
filenames.  I also had similar problems.  Instead of deleting then creating
a new file when the filename is the same as the old filename, it creats
multiple copies of the same file name.  Dos can't handle it, and deleting one
deletes them all.  


> 
> dosdir c:/temp/ shows the file but dosdel c:/temp/* or dosdel c:/temp//* will
> not remove them. dosrmdir c:/temp/ says c:/temp/"" not empty.
> 
> Under DOS,I cannot rmdir c:/temp or c:/temp/<space>. The files, about 2 MB, 
> are taking up disk space (I totaled other files to check) but cannot be removed
> or accessed!
> 
> How can I get rid of these files (short of format c:/s)?
> 

I had to resort to Norton Utilities to delete bogus files that Dos would'nt
let me remove.

> txia,
> Timothy. 

Ben
--
Ben Bailey                 ben@bailey.uucp -- bailey!ben@uunet.uu.net
12210 Shady Forest Dr.     ben@bailey.tscs.com
Riverview, Fl. 33569       -- The main thing is to keep the main
813-677-5021                  thing the main thing.  Mainly. 
Newsgroups: comp.os.coherent
From: jboggs@news.weeg.uiowa.edu (John D. Boggs)
Subject: Does ustar work for anyone?
Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 12:25:07 GMT

I'm trying to back up my entire hard drive using ustar, and it goes fine
for the first two and a half disks, then it goes:

Not enough memory ./tmp/
ustar: ./tmp/ : error opening directory (2)
Not enough memory ./
ustar: ./ : error opening directory (2)

I'm doing this as root, from / , and using 
     
      ustar -cvlf /dev/rfha0 .

Any and all suggestions (especially those that work!) are welcome.

-John D. Boggs     mwcbbs!boggs!jdb     john-boggs@uiowa.edu
From: umunk@naxos.sni.de (Udo Munk)
Newsgroups: comp.os.coherent
Subject: Re: Compile error
Date: 15 Oct 92 14:41:17 GMT
Reply-To: munk.pad@sni.de
Organization: Siemens Nixdorf Info.Sys. AG, Paderborn, Germany

glallen@keurgraad.witchcraft.com ("", Gordon Lee Allen) writes:

>I downloaded a communications program from Compuserve called XC.
>Followed the instructions regarding pathnames, etc., but during
>the compile it stops on these lines:

>        signal(SIGHUP,(void *)s_exit);
>        signal(SIGTERM,(void *)s_exit);
>        signal(SIGQUIT,(void *)s_exit);

>The error message is "Illegal use of void type in cast".  I don't
>know how to fix it.  I'm using Coherent version 4.0.  By the way,
>my conversion from 3.2.1 to 4.0 went very smoothly.

MWC's C compiler doesn't like void pointers, like many other K&R
compilers too. Remove the cast to a void pointer ( the (void *) )
and it will compile.
Just a hint: you'll find an ported XC (latest release is 3.3) for
COHERENT 4.0 on raven.alaska.edu, MWCBBS and my system.

--
Udo Munk                voice:      +49 2131 275348
Oberstr. 21             mail :      udo@umunk.GUN.de
4040 Neuss 1                        ...!{mcshh,smurf,unido}!easix!umunk!udo
Germany                 CompuServe: 100021,2515
From: system@micromed.com (Duane Davis)
Newsgroups: comp.os.coherent
Subject: Pascal Compiler?
Date: Thu, 08 Oct 92 23:48:04 PDT
Organization: Micro-Medic BBS - +1 408 279 5240 - Public Access

I'm currently using MS-DOS but have ordered Coherent (which, by the way,
was supposed to arrive within 2-3 weeks. It's been 4 weeks now and MWC
says it's on back-order and will be shipped "in a few more weeks").

Is there a Pascal compiler available that will run under Coherent?
I primarily use Turbo Pascal and would rather not have to learn another
language.



--
System@micromed.com (Duane Davis)                   voice (408)293-3299
Micro-Medic                          public access usenet (408)279-5240
711 Lincoln Avenue                  public access pcboard (408)280-1610
San Jose, CA 95126                    FileServer - FTPMail@micromed.com
From: deutschm@lucky.lion.de ("", Carsten Deutschmann)
Newsgroups: comp.os.coherent
Subject: List of Objects in Kernel
Date: 7 Oct 92 10:19:45 GMT
Reply-To: "Coherent operating system" <COHERENT@indycms.bitnet>

Hi folks,

is there a official list of the kernel-objects and their meanings.

At this point I do only now about _CBAUD, but I assume, that there are
more of them, and may be useful, if I knew about them.

Bye Carsten...
---------------------------------------
If U can't beat'em, join'em     <QUEEN>
Carsten Deutschmann
From: umunk@naxos.sni.de (Udo Munk)
Newsgroups: comp.os.coherent
Subject: Re: Coho 4.0.1 on a Toshiba Laptop...But, TERM problems
Date: 15 Oct 92 14:48:18 GMT
Reply-To: munk.pad@sni.de
Organization: Siemens Nixdorf Info.Sys. AG, Paderborn, Germany

cht@panix.com (Chris Taylor) writes:

>Coherent 4.0.1 installs and runs great on a Toshiba T1800 Satellite laptop!

>But...
>When I set my TERM environment variable to vt100, and log into a Unix system,
>everything is peachy until I try to use vi. I make sure that the host I log
>into has its' TERM set to vt100, too, of course. So I log in, start vi (on
>the remote host) and the screen goes blank! Ugh! This happens with ckermit 
>and mcu (that I got off raven.alaska.edu). I have tried this on two Unices,

There are two problems: first a PC console (Toshiba or anyone) doesn't
emulate a vt100 terminal. So if you set your TERM variable to vt100
and use a program which uses terminal descriptions from terminfo or
termcap like vi this can't worke because the wrong escape sequences
for positioning the cursor etc are send to your console device.
The secound problem: the console device driver has a bug, some
escape sequences changes the color to black characters on black
background, and some of the vt100 capabilities are defined with
just this escape sequences.

>The funny thing is, the systems accept keyboard input- I just can't see what
>is going on. I can quit the editor, logout of the remote, and return to
>Coho on my local machine- all blind. (I can hear the console bell beeping at
>all the right places.) Once back at my local machine, I have to reset to
>get my screen back.

Reset an running COHERENT system without a shutdown is dangerous, you
may lose some data. If this happens again to you type ESC c, which
resets the console terminal to it's powerup status and you can see
again what you type.

>So has anybody else observed similar problems? Should I get the systems
>to use some other TERM setup? Hopefully you Coho gurus can have a hint
>or two to shed light on this problem.

There are some solutions, but always let your local TERM variable be
ansipc, all other is wrong!

1. Most UNIX systems today knows about an PC console terminal. Login
   to the host and _there_ set TERM to ansi or ansipc. Try vi, if the
   terminal is unknown you get an appropriate error message.

2. If you know the root password of the hosts just take the
   termcap and terminfo descriptions from your COHERENT system
   and install them on the host.

3. Use the communication programm minicom release 1.33 (available
   from raven.alaska.edu, MWCBBS and my system) to connect to
   a host. This program includes a vt100 terminal emulation and
   a vt100 is really known by every UNIX host.
--
Udo Munk                voice:      +49 2131 275348
Oberstr. 21             mail :      udo@umunk.GUN.de
4040 Neuss 1                        ...!{mcshh,smurf,unido}!easix!umunk!udo
Germany                 CompuServe: 100021,2515
Newsgroups: comp.os.coherent