HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Welch Garb question
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 09:40:38

 MC> should be married in SCA life.  I
 MC> like the idea of being from Wales, somewhere within 
 MC> an easy half-days walk of
 MC> the coast, and in such a time where the cultural 
 MC> clash between Christian and
 MC> pre-Christian groups would be nearly, but not 
 MC> completely, over which my totally
 MC> uninformed speculation places around the tenth or 
 MC> eleventh century.  As she has
 You've picked a good century for nice basic stuff.  As for Welsh-
 specific costume -- so far *I* have found no sources for it.  I found 
 an inference that the Welsh nobility in the later periods tried to 
 be English, because that was what got you court awards and notice. 
 Gerald of Wales implies that the Welsh are country hicks, so far as 
 attire goes, in his traveling chronicle written in the 12th ce. 
    So, you may ask, where is this leading?  Go find a costume book in 
 the library and make the stuff from your time period.  So far as I 
 remember (being 12th ce myself), that era is pretty constant from about 
 600-1100-ish.  For men, mid-thigh or floor length t-tunic over very 
 snug pants or heavy tights.  For women a floor length tunic with long 
 tight sleeves (much like the long-sleeved Units tops...) with an
 over-tunic with long straight-but-full sleeves, and being either 
 (also) floor-length or mid-calf length.  
     Another option for this simple era is to go to your fabric store 
 and look through the umm, errr... "speciality" section in the pattern 
 book.  It usually says "costume" in small print on the index tab.  In 
 there will probably be a pattern that includes a monk's robe, with 
 perhaps a princess and an angel in the women's pictures.  This will 
 work just fine for your first costumes.  No polyester doubleknit, 
 please.  Any good solid color or woven pattern should be fine -- 
 I try to get stuff that's a maximum of 50% poly, and 100% natural if 
 I can afford it......
     A good book to look for at the library is "A Book of Costume" by 
 Millia Davenport.  I personally prefer costume books that use illustra-
 tions from the period, not line-drawings.....
     Gwenllian Cwmystwyth, Ansteorra

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: mcs@unlinfo.unl.edu (michael straatmann)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Non-Steel Re: On the nature of armor....
Date: 19 Dec 1992 16:38:19 GMT
Organization: University of Nebraska--Lincoln	
Distribution: world, na, usa, local
NNTP-Posting-Host: unlinfo.unl.edu

Unto the readers of the Rialto and Dennis O'Connor come greetings and 
abasement from Gospodin Mikhail Nikolaevich Kramolnikov,

<***lots**** of stuff deleted>

In the discussion of acceptable armor (of which I find both sides 
fascinating :-) It is stated that non-steel knees and elbows are not 
acceptable.  This is not the case throughout the Known World.  As I 
understand it, the only thing _required_ to be steel is the helm.  All
else can be made from rigid equivalents.  At least this is the way I 
understand it in Calontir.  In other kingdoms, is this steel required?
(Just when you thought that interkingdom comparisons had died for a 
while ;-)  

In curiosity,
Misha

--
      Michael C. Straatmann  --   mcs@unlinfo.unl.edu
"the winds battling at blackness; against the waves of destruction 
from ultimate space; whirling, churning, struggling around the 
dimming, cooling sun." - H.P. Lovecraft
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: tabron@binah.cc.brandeis.edu ("Sod the proles!")
Subject: Re: Scope of the SCA (was Re: Through a looking glass, darkly)
Reply-To: tabron@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Organization: Brandeis University
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 20:30:23 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.193902.15231@watson.ibm.com>, mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:
>  Corpora defines the scope of the Society as
>"pre-1600 western civilization."  That is not synonymous with "Europe",
>since it obviously includes western Asia, the Near and Middle East, and
>North Africa, but it does not include the entire world.=
>Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com

But Arval, it is not "obvious" to me that "western civilation" includes those
areas. In fact, just look at the terms "the Near and Middle East" and wonder
how "obvious" it is that this is part of "the west". 

"The west" today means western Europe and the United States. Just because
the US is enforcing its values and culture (whatever that is) all over the 
"Near and Middle East" as well as everywhere else, that does NOT mean that
it's all the same culture; and in the Middle Ages I find it laughable that one
could consider these areas "obviously" part of so-called "western
civilization".

Someone else wrote: "White people tend to know white people." That's certainly
the most racist statement I've heard recently. 

You know, I need to stay the hell off the rialto. two days of reading this
board and I'm convinced I need to get the hell out of the SCA.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: LoAR Question
From: Eric_Smith@kssib.ksc.nasa.gov (Eric C. Smith)
Date: 14 Dec 92 14:26:08 EST
Followup-To: rec.org.sca
Distribution: world
Organization: NASA/KSC, Shire of Starhaven, where we periodically return a fallen star to the heavens!

My friends,

I have been asked by one of my friends to post for him in hopes of finding
out some info about his device, which was supposed to be looked at during
the August sit down of the CoA.  His name is Jhanos der Kliene and he had
submitted his device some time ago.  He has had no word from the Triamarian
CoA, and is dying to hear.  He does recieve the Rialto on a BBS he runs in
Starhaven, called The Shire Scribe, and would have posted on his own, but
there seems to be a problem on the net somewhere.  If there is anyone out
there who might be able to provide some info, he would appreciate it.  You
can either post it here, and he will see it, or you may send it to me
through e-mail.  Thank you very much for you assistance.

Maredudd ap Cynan
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: lcatlett@carson.u.washington.edu (Lynn Catlett)
Subject: Re: Heraldic references...
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 00:18:40 GMT

>] Inter library loan is often "strongly discouraged" by librarians,
>(?) Carolus (I think, my Erase finger is faster than my brain...)

>Beyond that, for libraries funded by tax dollars, IMHO no reasonable
>request should be turned down because someone thinks it's "frivolous" :
>these libraries exist to serve the public, not some elite group of 
>"serious" researchers. Either anyone should be able to get inter-library
>Dennis O'Connor			doconnor@sedona.intel.com

AHA!  The above is what I always thought was the
case and should be, but experience has shown otherwise:
 
(grrrr)  Please tell, folks:  

	Does YOUR library "discourage" ILL?
	
	Does it *refuse* you the service unless you can
	  demonstrate that it bears directly on a) your
	  job or b) your major, like my charming employer?
	  (Heaven forefend any of us might want to know
	  anything outside our major/need-to-know)
	
They (our ILL staff) tell me this is "nearly universal" at
state universities, but it's the first time I ever heard
it.  (Especially odd to hear it from a school that calls
itself "the university of a thousand years.")  

Lynn/Lin
(really, not ALWAYS cranky--seemingly just when I post...)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Its been awhile since I was active, but I seem to remember a 'childs' 
activity in An Tir called the Pages Guild.  This group did a good job
of organizing 'childrens activities' that were of at least somewhat
period nature.  These activities were then made part of most events
in such a way that was more inclusive that exclusive.

From: Dave.Aronson@p11.f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: SCA geography (was: through a looking ...)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 12:35:12 -0500

viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writeth:

 DS> When the obvious, such as skin color, makes one a
 DS> bit uncomfortable, figure out why and help accordingly.  [...]
 DS> If it's because the skin under that kilt
 DS> is black and not pale, offer a bit of help on forming a good reply to
 DS> the obvious questions of how he came to Scotland.

And if you can't come up with something believable, something amusing will often
do.  I once overheard a black man telling a young white child, who had
apparently never seen a black person before, that "God left [him] in the oven a
little too long".
From: cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Interlibrary Loan (was Heraldic references...)
Date: 15 Dec 1992 01:04:32 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article <james.724378993@wrs.com> james@wrs.com writes:
>
>....  It's been a few years since
>I've needed to use the system (I'm fortunate enough to live within walking
>distance of UC Berkeley's library), but there was never any restriction
>on geographical location for fetching books.  

Oh, no, they don't restrict interlibrary loan---they just charge you.
It used to be $15 per book; I haven't a clue what it is now, but I bet
it's more and not less.

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin		Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West			UC Berkeley
Argent, a cross forme'e sable		cozzlab@garnet.berkeley.edu

Disclaimer:  UCB and the Cozzarelli lab are not responsible for my
opinions, and in fact I don't think they know I have any.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: bwilson@eng.auburn.edu (Brian Scott Wilson)
Subject: Re: On the nature of armor....
Reply-To: bwilson@eng.auburn.edu
Organization: Auburn University Engineering
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 17:20:09 GMT

>
>Thomas Ignatius Perigrinus


>While it is presumptious for me to speak for My Lord Heydt, it seems that
>he and I hold to the tenant that the SCA has something to do with historical
>recreation, and that a certain amount of historical accuracy is laudable,
>even if it gets in the way of doing things "the easy way".  In fact, I know
>that for myself, surmounting such obstacles in the journey is as much fun as
>finally arriving at my goal.

Far be it for me to disagree with two who I hold as very well spoken and
respected individuals as yourselves, but I wonder if there is not a point
or two you are overlooking. For Instance, Brian is a 7th century irishman.
more than likely he has seen very little armor in his life, owns even less
and would think that most men who wear armor are sissies anyway. I actually
love armor, have an extensive shop, and am considered one of the better
armorers in this kingdom. I have a true dichotomy to face. My persona
would not wear armor, except possibly a helm. He might wear a wide girdle
and perhaps bracers of leather as well. So I wear a wide girdle a helmet and bracers. I also wear a gorget that shows, but as it is decorated it might 
have been worn for vanities sake if for no other reason. Now unless you are
totally unfamiliar with the rules you will not that I have not mentioned 
leg armor. Well Brian would not have worn any so I chose to make some
(out of aluminum and leather) and wear it underneath my braccea.  Now I will
pass for a good celt. I could have used steel. But, as no one would see this
anyway why should I weight myself down with this and always have oil or rust 
getting on my clothes, when I could use aluminum and no one would be the 
wiser.

I am not so unencumbered that no one can touch me. And anyone can make 
period armor just as light as mine if they want to. So what's the problem?
Plastic and aluminum have there place on the SCA battlefieled, just not
where I can see it.

Sir Brian
Princeps Meridies (and being fast certainly must have helped me attain this)
From: Tim@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Heraldic questions...
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 07:35:28

     Kwellend-Njal wrote:
 DW> parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr) writes:
 DW> > Please understand, I *do not* want to see that happen. ButI also
 DW> > don't want to get involved with an organaization, the COA, that I
 DW> > feel is actively preventing SCAdians from practicing good
 DW> > heraldry.

 DW>      Do you have any examples of this?  You've thrown down a gauntlet; I'm
 DW> calling your bluff.  Let us hear some examples of this "good heraldry"
 DW> that the CoA is preventing people from practicing.

 I'll give you one: Lozengy gules and sable a dragon segreant or. Illegal
 under current rules for "insufficient contrast between the parts of the
 field" -- a judgment obviously absurd to anybody who's seen these arms
 executed. Under the current rules, the field has to be parted of a color
 and a metal, which makes the charge metal on half of the field (or color
 on half of the field) which is less identifiable than doing it the above
 way. This runs exactly against what heraldry is supposedly all about; in
 this case, our rules are counterproductive.

 I'll give you another: Argent a fess wreathed azure and gules. Illegal
 under current rules for "insufficient contrast between the parts of the
 charge" -- a judgment equally absurd to anybody who's seen these arms
 (those of Carmichael, by the way) executed. Under the current rules, the
 fess has to be wreathed of a color and a metal, which makes half of the
 fess metal on the metal field (or color on the color field), which is less
 identifiable than doing it the above way. Again, this runs exactly against
 what heraldry is supposedly all about, and our rules are
 counterproductive.

 Nota bene that the problem is not in the current rules but rather in the
 way those rules are being interpreted: more restrictively than the actual
 wording requires; which is why changing the rules wouldn't help, one needs
 to change the people who are interpreting the rules, and that takes an
 ungodly amount of time with no assurance of success.

    Tadhg, Obelisk

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: gleason@scf16.scf.loral.com (Robert Gleason)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Heraldic questions
Date: 17 Dec 92 20:32:27 GMT
Distribution: rec
Organization: Loral Space and Range Systems, Sunnyvale, CA


Jeff Lee writes:

"...I could call my self Wibble Flarpson of Bletchford."

That takes the current top billing on "Parlan's List O'
Silly Names."  The most recent topper was 
Eggbert T. Ethelrod (the T is for Throckmorton).  In
second was Conner MacSwaggerstrut which in itself is
not too outragous but if you could see her socializing
around the eric you would understand.


Parlan MacGillivray
From: doconnor@sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: SCA geography (was: through a looking ...)
Date: 17 Dec 92 23:28:16
Organization: Intel i960(tm) Architecture
	<1992Dec17.185756.24818@news.cs.brandeis.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: potato.intel.com
In-reply-to: tabron@binah.cc.brandeis.edu's message of Thu, 17 Dec 1992 18:57:56 GMT


[ The following is perforce mainly opinion and philosophy, and I'm
  therfor not going to respond to people who just nit-pick it !
  In the same spirit, I'll try not to nit-pick opposed opinions,
  but if I forget, remind me please ! ]

The SCA seems to be rooted in our membership's fondness in youth for the
French tales of Arthur, the English tales of Robin Hood, movies about
Vikings, and the like. But it has matured into a joyous exploration and 
celebration of the best of the European middle ages, with a dash of Arthur
and Robin thrown in for fun.

SO the geography is essentially Medeaval Europe. But who were the
people of this geography ? Saxons, Celts, French and Dutch certainly;
Englishmen, Germans, Danes, Vikings of course. Russians, Poles,
Swedes and the Swiss; Italians and Spaniards sure. I've never met
anyone who objected to such personas.

But what of the Moors who conquered Spain : they must count too,
after all, Othello of the Bard's play of the name was a Moor.
And almost all of the classical writings prized so much by Medeaval
Europeans got through the Dark Ages and to Europe via the Arabs.
And if we allow Russians and Poles, what of the Golden Horde
of the 13th Century : surely these Mongol invaders must be allowed.
And how can we say we represent Western civilization and leave
out the Greeks; but then the Turks are but a stone's throw away.
And what of Egypt ? Surely if Rome included that African nation 
in it's empire, the SCA should to. And what of Palestine ?
That Mediteranean is so small and easy to sail : should we
not include all the cultures that ring it ?

The world of the Mongol and the Moslem were in close contact
and occasional overlap with the world of Christian Europe.
( There were Christian Mongol Khans in the 14th Century BTW.)
It's therefor hard for me to understand why anyone would question
the appropriateness of a Mongol or Moslem persona in the SCA.

Now Japanese and New World persona are little more of a stretch,
I admit. Certainly New World people were brought back to Europe
by the late-period explorers, but only a very few. And it's
possible that a Japanese person could have sailed to (raid) Korea
as they often did, then travelled the Silk Road from China to 
Persia and then to Europe, tho I know of no such journey. But,
Period Japan DOES embody a lot of the Arthurian-ism we all love :
knights, a fuedal society, personal honor. And period Japanese culture
is so INTERESTING to learn about.

We're a big society. I personally think there's plenty of room
for non-European personas. I know it's stretching it, and as
they say in the books : non-Europeans are assumed to be foriegn
guests in a European culture and should behave accordingly.
--
Dennis O'Connor			doconnor@sedona.intel.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr)
Subject: Re: Face-thrust force/Picts
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 17:34:19 GMT
Distribution: world, na, usa, local
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta

In article <1g6dnlINN7pt@crcnis1.unl.edu> mcs@unlinfo.unl.edu (michael straatmann) writes:

>M'Lord heretic ;-)
>
>I believe the rule states that we are all wearing _open_ face helms, 
>with a kingdom to kingdom option of instating a chain mail drape.  
>Now, with an open face it does not take a whole lot of force.  I bleed
>just fine when faced with an uncontrollable steak knife, let alone a 
>thrust to the face.  No magic wand, just fragile humans.

You got me. Sorry. With regards to face thrusts you are
absolutely correct. I used the subject to springboard
into my current peeve, which is people who are taking my
*garbage* shots as good. They are not good. I know, I threw
the shot, and it would not cleave denim, let alone chain,
but they want to take it because it was "clean"...This may be
even worse than the Rhinos who wouldn't take your blow if you
were wielding live steel.

Carolus Malvoix
Montengarde, An Tir
-- 
Within the span of the last few weeks I have heard elements of
separate threads which, in that they have been conjoined in time,
struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing
gourd. --Unknown net.person
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei)
Subject: Re: Heraldic questions...
Organization: Progress Software Corp.
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 14:30:29 GMT

Arval wrote:
  device to be an improper act, much moreso than wearing inauthentic garb.
  The College of Arms, an office of the corporation, does claim that
  unregistered armory should not be displayed at events (though it lacks the
  authority to back up that claim).

Although, judging from the last Board Meeting, and the Minutes of that
meeting, it may not be long before Lord Laurel requests that authority.

	Tibor (yes, the Board Minutes digest is coming, I swear!)
--
Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com)
[I'm just showin' you my opinions: this ain't a gift]
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Aluminum Armour (was Re: HELP WANTED RE KINGDOM AWARDS)
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 23:17:18 GMT

In article <62862@mimsy.umd.edu> kuijt@umiacs.umd.edu (David Kuijt) writes:
>For me the question is not whether Aluminum, Titanium, and other modern
>metals (or plastics, for that matter) are acceptable.  The question is
>rather whether they are an appropriate final goal.  If everyone who had
>plastic armour wished for metal or leather; if everyone who had aluminum
>armour wished for steel; if everyone who had butted chainmail wished for
>welded mail,....  If all this happened, I would be very happy.  Because
>those who defend their personal level of authenticity as the right one
>miss the point.  None of us have done as much as we might.  The sad thing
>is the people who do not wish for more.

Thank you for expressing so well a sentiment I was trying to get
across.

Sigh.

What I *really* want is riveted mail....

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |            You!
510-823-5447                 |    Out of the Gene Pool!
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca