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Date:         Mon, 5 Oct 1992 11:54:11 -0500
From:         Amanda Walker <amanda@INTERCON.COM>
Subject: Re: Omnipresent? (was Re: pre Vat II?)

> I'm a little confused as to what you mean by 'omni-present in all
> creation'... that sounds like it's dangerously close to pantheism to me.

There are two concepts here.  Pantheism is the belief that "everything is
God."  Panentheism is the belief that God is present everywhere.  They are
very different, despite the similarity of the terms.  Using Aristotleian
terms, the first is concerned with *substance*, while the second is concerned
with *location*.  That is to say, pantheism is the worship of all of Creation
itself, while panentheism is the perception and acknowledgement of the
presence of God in all of Creation.  Pantheism is not consonant with
Christian theology (or Judaic theology, for that matter), but the second is.
The prayers of St. Francis, for example, are very panentheistic, as are the
sermons of Meister Eckhardt, and many other of the works of Christian mystics
throughout the centuries.


Peace,

Amanda Walker
--
Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est. Congregavit nos in unum Christi amor.
Exsultemus et in ipso jucundemur. Timeamus et amemus Deum vivum. Et ex corde
diligamus nos sincero.  Amen.
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From: jbuffer@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (James J Buffer)
Subject: Re: Metaphysics
Keywords:  infallibility
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 03:26:06 GMT

To say that the pope speaks infallibly when he speaks ex cathedra on a matter 
of faith and morals is not to claim that his words exhaustively express an 
eternal truth. Rather, it claims that WHAT HE SAID IS TRUE. Can one make a true
statement? Yes or no--beware the possibility of falling into an infinite 
regression...
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Date:         Mon, 5 Oct 1992 12:34:49 -0400
From:         "Nancy M. Piatkowski" <PIATKONM@SNYBUFVA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: women as priests

Eric- I thought I asked you to drop it--- I understand you can't abide the
thought of women as priests- The church can still change the law maybe not
within my life time but at some point she will- I do not see the current
prohibition of women as priest as something absolute handed down by God- all
your scriptural reasoning doesn't wash with me- It is law made by MEN- and
enforced by MEN- am I not correct?  but then again I've been corrupted by Matt
Fox and the Berrigans what else can I say *<8+}
Nancy
From: dewind@acsu.buffalo.edu (Idbil Fubar)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Re: mysticism
Date: 29 Sep 92 16:52:51 GMT
Organization: UB

eje@IRENAEUS.MLO.DEC.COM (Eric James Ewanco) writes:

>Excerpts from catholic: 29-Sep-92 Re: mysticism Free Catholic Mailing @? (1679)

>> zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG ((Gordon C. Zaft)) writes:

>> >On Sep 25, 11:10am, Brent Winiger wrote:

>> >	On the other hand, I really was annoyed at the total disregard
>> >for, for example, the contemplatives of the Church who spend their lives
>> >praying on her behalf.  The author is obviously totally oblivious of
>> >such matters...

>> Folks...Don't be fooled in to thinking that Catholicism is monotheistic.
>> It never has been...it never will.  Angels are simply renamed versions
>> of pagan gods...placed in to a more 'biblical' format.  Remember the
>> 'Communion of Saints'?  The thing that makes biblebelters think that
>> Catholics are Satan worshipers?  How do you think the church converted
>> millions of pagans? By EXPANDING their relegion...not killing it.

>> Idbil Fubar

>Who are you?  You obviously know little about Catholicism and
>Christianity, for every week we declare our faith in one God.  The only
>named angels we know are Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael, all names from
>Scripture.  Michael means "Who is like God?", Gabriel means "God is my
>strength", and "Raphael" means "God heals" (I think that's how it goes).
> Hardly renamed pagan gods.

I know a lot about christianity and Catholicism.  You declare faith in
ONE god...Hmmm...FATHERSONHOLYGHOST. That's his name eh?  NO!  
In a vague sence catholicism is monotheistic...but only in a vague sence...
What many pagan relegions do to be called polytheistic is much less than
the catholic church.

>You appear to me to be Muslim at first glance.

Nope...
Mail me if you really want to know...(it's kind of long and needs a tad of
explaination)
>In any case, you are
>welcome to listen and post, but you should extend common courtesy and
>politeness to us;

Sorry...My rhetorical style has been imprinted long ago...I'm working on 
sounding polite.

>we do not get on the Islam list and attack the Islamic
>faith, so it would be courteous if you did not come on this list with
>the intention of knocking our faith.

As I said I am not islamic, but I DO receive nasty comments from all sorts
of folks from many relegions.  Including catholics which to an extent I am.
Hmmm...
I'll try not to ramble.


Id
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Date:         Fri, 25 Sep 1992 12:47:01 CDT
From:         "(Edward J. Branley)" <elendil@MINTIR.NEW-ORLEANS.LA.US>
Subject: Re: Jesuits

"(Raymond Lang)" <rex!lang> writes:

> In article <qgsLRB1w165w@mintir.new-orleans.la.us>,         "(Edward J.
> Branley)" <elendil@MINTIR.NEW-ORLEANS.LA.US> writes:
>
> > A priest gets on a plane and sits next to a nice old lady.  The lady says
> "Oh,
> > I'm so glad that you're on this flight, Father.  It'll be nice to know that
> God
> > will be watching over our journey.  My son is also a priest, a Jesuit.  Are
> you
> > a Jesuit, too?"
> >
> > The priest smiled at her and said, "No ma'am, I'm a Catholic Priest."
> >
> > Ed--trained by the Brothers of the Sacred Heart (our biggest rival was Jesu
> > High of New Orleans... <g>)                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Pffft, was there ever even a _contest_? ;)
>
> Ray Lang, JHS '75, Loyola '80
> lang@cs.tulane.edu

Ray, ROFL!  You're part of the maniacs of '75?  I was a BMHS debator, and of
course knew all of the '75 guys on the Jesuit team.  I worked during college
with Owsley, Kelly and Cousans at Maison Blanche, and three of my fraternity
brothers (Lyle Jeansonne, Richard Vallon, Johnny Gaupp) are Jesuit '76.

As to contest, hehehehe...we had our moments.  Actually, I've got sort of a
second loyalty, since I taught at Redeemer HS after graduation (my degree is in
education).

Ed.
BMHS '76, UNO '80



|Edward J. Branley                         elendil@mintir.New-Orleans.LA.US|
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Date:         Fri, 2 Oct 1992 13:23:46 HST
From:         "(Len Howard)" <tas@PEGASUS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Diaconate
              2:13pm)

Brent, I will be happy to respond to your questions about the
Diaconate, but please remember that I speak from the position of the
Episcopal Diocese of Hawaii.
   Most of our Deacons have full time other jobs.  They are, however,
often related to the diaconal ministry of the individual.  Most of our
Deacons are in the older parent, grandparent age group, however our
most recent ordinand is in his early thirties and not married.  But
most times the BACM feels that the responsibility of raising children
takes priority over the diaconate.
   The Bishop's policy here is that the Deacon stays in the parish
from which he or she originates, unless the Deacon choses otherwise.
In that case the Bishop would choose the assigned parish, based on
geography and need of the parish.  We actually work for the Bishop,
but are assigned usually to our home parish for liturgical duties.
   Many of our Deacons transition into full time diaconal ministry
after retirement.  This is my intention also.
   Hope this helps.

Shalom,                              Len Howard
                                     tas@pegasus.com
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Date:         Mon, 5 Oct 1992 23:31:23 EDT
From:         Jim McIntosh <JIM@AMERICAN.EDU>
Subject:      RE: sinead o'connor
              5 Oct 1992 21:51:43 GMT from <jocallag@VYASA.HELIOS.ND.EDU>

On Mon, 5 Oct 1992 21:51:43 GMT (john ocallaghan) said:
>But for us Catholics, the fact is that an attack upon the pope, again whether
>we agree with him in any particular or not, whether we respect him as an
>individual Christian or not, whether we think he is a great sinner or not, is
>an attack upon us, as well as, given what we believe about the Church, is an
>attack upon all Christians everywhere.  She may not have intended this, but
>this is what she did.

I agree, and now the question is what do we do when attacked? What did
Jesus tell us to do? When we accept the abuse and absorb the anger, we
are being true followers of Christ.

You know, being attacked is a form of blessing. It is the time when we
can demonstrate what it truely means to be a Christian. It is the time
when we have an opportunity to turn the other cheek, and pray for those
who would persecute us.

I missed SNL, but saw the replay this evening on Entertainment Tonight.
Some have said that Sinead did it for publicity (which she certainly is
getting), but I sensed real and deep pain.

This places a burden on us. Jesus said, "If you bring your gift to the
altar and there recall that your brother (or sister) has anything against
you, leave your gift at the altar, go first to be reconciled with your
brother (or sister), and then come and offer your gift." (Mt 5:23-24)
Clearly this woman has something against us, and we should do what we can
to be reconciled with her. I'm not sure what each of us can do personally
but prayer is probably a good start.

Therefore, the correct response, in my opinion, is to accept the anger,
and to say a prayer for Sinead O'Connor and for all those who misunder-
stand us and the message of peace we carry.

Jim McIntosh, SFO (jim@american.edu)
The American University
Washington DC 20016-8019 USA
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From: jocallag@vyasa.helios.nd.edu (john ocallaghan)
Subject: Re: Mary
Organization: OUC, University of Notre Dame
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 20:47:56 GMT

In article <921002141538.28e0af04@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM> URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM writes:
>Eric, I think you've been reading too many Peter Kreeft books. :-)


J.J.,
I haven't read any Peter Kreeft books.>
>From your reasoning we could call Joseph the 'Father of God'. We would
>not be entirely wrong unless you consider a parent only those who have
>genetic links to a person. The question of Jesus' genetic links I'll
>let other decide, and also those of James:-) - J.J.

In some sense, it would be appropriate to call Joseph the father of God, as
both mother and father are terms with several meanings; however it seems the
crucial respect in which Mary is the Mother of God is that she bore Christ
within her and gave birth to Him, where Joseph did not impregnate Mary giving
rise to Christ within her, and in that sense is not the father of God.  I
thought in the previous posting, it was fairly clear what was essential.
For anyone who could shed light on this, isn't there an ancient discussion
amongst the Greeks on this issue over Mary as Theotokos(is that correct Greek
spelling?) i.e. God bearer?
John
.


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Date:         Fri, 25 Sep 1992 12:29:33 CDT
From:         "(Edward J. Branley)" <elendil@MINTIR.NEW-ORLEANS.LA.US>
Subject: Re: kneeling...

Amanda Walker <rex!INTERCON.COM!amanda> writes:

> Edward J. Branley wrote:
> > > If you start worrying about whether or not you should or shouldn't,
> > > then the Mass is no longer a mystical ritual but a physical habit.
>
> And Gordon Zaft responded:
>
> > You misunderstand me.  The Mass is most definitely not a
> > 'mystical ritual' but an action of Christ.
>
> The Mass most definitely *is* a mystical ritual.  In fact, it's the most
> potent mystical ritual of the Christian faith (although the other sacraments
> come close behind).  The presence of Christ in the consecrated elements, and
> our participation thereby as a community in his sacrifice, is a profound and
> important Mystery.
>
> It sounds like you think that "mystical ritual" precludes "an action of
> Christ."  This is very surprising to me, especially from an evidently devout
> Catholic...
>

When I just read Gordon's response to this, I decided to just let it go by.  No
point in discussing color with a blind man.  Your response is quite a bit more
articulate than I could have managed, in any case...




|Edward J. Branley                         elendil@mintir.New-Orleans.LA.US|
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Date:         Sat, 3 Oct 1992 09:50:25 -0400
From:         Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: Women are unclean

Sharon,

On the topic of women priests, you stated that we Roman Catholics do not
interpret the Bible literally.  It is true that we do not _all_ of the Bible
literally, like a few Fundamentalists, but it is certainly not true that we
do not interpret a large portion of the Bible literally.  Remember, the Bible
is inspired and inerrant, we believe that, and it is authoritative.  The
church is our guide in interpreting it, though.  If the church says we must
accept a certain part literally, then we must (and the church insists on a
literal understanding on more items than it insists an allegorical under-
standing).

The most compelling reason for not ordaining women priests is because it's
never been done and always been forbidden, hence it is part of Apostolic
Tradition and cannot be changed.  Jesus chose only men as Apostles.  Evidently
the Apostles knew that the office of presbyters and bishops was to be limited
to men.  We are not free to change that.

Eric
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From:         Liz Moreau <EMOREAU@UMASSD.EDU>
Subject:      Re: fasting

>2) If you are doing it without spritual direction, don't overburden yourself.
>There is very great spiritual danger to undirected asceticism.
>Peace
>John

Could you please expand on this a bit.

Thanks.

					Liz Moreau
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Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 14:22:00 EDT
From:         TMN1@PSUVM.PSU.EDU
Subject:      Re: Galileo (WAS something else
              6 Oct 1992 09:26:32 EDT

Another point about Galileo was that he was apparently and arrogant S.O.B.,
who "KNEW" that he was right.  I saw a video in a History of the Church type
class that I took at University of Delaware, that presented the case this way:

Rome heard about Galileo's ideas and summoned him, then told him to please
keep quiet about this and we'll disseminate the info when we feel it is time.
To which Galileo responded, "now way, I want my discoveries to be heard."
At which point the Pope censured him.

Yes, this is a brief description and very simplified, but that's the jist of
what I remember from a class I took three years ago.

Todd M Nelson
tmn@ra.chem.psu.edu
tmn1@psuvm.bitnet
From: anonymous@hmivax.humgen.upenn.edu (Liz Broadwell)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: Frank Peretti (was Re: mysticism)
Date: 26 Sep 92 11:40:31 GMT
Organization: Society of Independent Newswaifs

In article <Iekq6vW_NU00F56SUd@irenaeus.mlo.dec.com>, eje@IRENAEUS.MLO.DEC.COM (Eric James Ewanco) writes:
> BTW the Peretti novels are wonderful and there is nothing "liberal" or
> heretical about them.  The Catholic Church has always affirmed the
> existence of a personal Satan, and the activity of demons.  This is
> REAL.  Demons DO exist, and they don't twiddle their thumbs waiting to
> be cast into the lake of fire.  They actively oppose Christians and do
> whatever they can to lead people away from God and into idolatry.  This
> has always been Catholic tradition.

I've read Peretti; one of my literary interests is Christian fantasy, and it's
refreshing to read someone who isn't cribbing from C. S. Lewis.  But I have at
least some difficulty with the way in which he presents the powers of light and
darkness at work in the world.  At the beginning of _Piercing the Darkness_,
for example, one of the angels, in order to protect the protagonist, kills a
human being attacking her.  I have never been able to determine the
significance of this event.  Anyone else notice this, and have an explanation?
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Date:         Sat, 26 Sep 1992 22:47:45 -0400
From:         "Nancy M. Piatkowski" <PIATKONM@SNYBUFVA.BITNET>
Subject:      space for worship

In response to Brian's objection to the Aiden Kavenaugh/Pueblo material
-- the documents refer to a cross in the worship space not a crucifix
-- the moving of the tabernacle out of the body of the church into its own
space is to no way negate the power of the reserved Eucharist but to separate
reservation from the place of action during the celebration of the Liturgy.
Environment and Art 78/79 describes the reasoning behind this- "active and
static aspects of the same reality cannot claim the same human attention at the
same time-"  This space becomes a place for private prayer and devotion.
--setting the altar off-side does not put it ina a lesser space but should put
it in a relationship with the Ambo or place for the proclamation of the Word-
the Word in which Christ is also present- as teacher.  New churches should be
designed to establish a relationship between the places of Initiation (the
Font), the Word (the Ambo) and the Meal (Altar) and the worshipping community
which by its coming together to pray makes the entire space holy. We no longer
passively sit and watch someone performing an action in an alien tongue but
become activly engaged in a dialogue with the celebrant,each other and God
If we are to become a community we need to interact as a community- seeing
faces not just the backs of heads, of looking into eyes, of being able to smile
at each other to be able to move with the movement from font to word to table
without hindrance or fear.
Nancy Piatkowski
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Date:         Fri, 25 Sep 1992 15:58:29 HST
From:         "(Len Howard)" <tas@PEGASUS.COM>
Subject:      Re: Mysticism (was Re: pre Vat II?)
              II?)" (Sep 25, 12:52pm)

Amanda, I don't think any of us are doubting the place of mysticism in
the church todya, nor the value of meditation and contemplation in
one's spiritual growth.  My objection is to the new-ager coming upon
meditation or centering out of the context of the church and thinking
they have something new and different that will replace the
traditional church.  That is the danger I see.

They have a spiritual hunger that drives them to seek something, but
they know not what they seek.  They come upon one of the lesser known
aspects of the religious life and think they have found the Holy
Grail. It is too bad they don't just get involved with the Church as a
whole and slake their thirst with living water.

Shalom,                             Len Howard
                                    tas@pegasus.com
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Date:         Thu, 1 Oct 1992 07:35:19 -0500
From:         "(sdl)" <sdl@AUSTIN.IBM.COM>
Subject:      Lay leadership at communion services
              30 Sep 1992 15:59:08 -0400
              <9210010455.AB13663@netmail.austin.ibm.com>

>>>>> URSIC@ASTRO.CS.HH.AB.COM writes:

ursic> Yes, I rather suspected this was the case, I guess I was wondering
ursic> if there were any loop holes in the Dogma. It seems unfair to
ursic> deny access simply for lack of a priest, especially if it will
ursic> be for any great length of time. I suppose we could just have a
ursic> central "consecrating site" and then transport "volumes" of
ursic> consecrated Hosts to remote sites for distribution at these
ursic> communion rituals. Or is this not feasable either? - J.J.

I don't think I'd say it's "unfair" for believers to be denied access
to the Eucharists; that isn't strong enough a statement.  The Catholic
Church is *fundamentally* sacramental, and if we reach a point where
we don't regularly participate in the sacraments for whatever reason,
I don't think we are any longer the Catholic Church.

I disagree with the proposed solution of *routinely* having services of
the word or communion services using the reserved Eucharistist (either
from a mass at an earlier time for from another place).  The Eucharist
is more than just Christ present in the elements, it is also the
action of the people of God assembled to "do this in my memory".
Again, if it becomes "normal" to assemble to do anything else I think
we become something besides the Catholic Church.

Now of course there are situations where communities don't have access
to a priest every week.  And it's certainly better to have a service
of the word or a communion service with the reserved Eucharist than
to have nothing at all.  We must remain perfectly clear, however, that
this is an abnormal and undesirable situation.

The ONLY real solution is having enough ordained people to serve our
communities.  How that happens is one of the serious challenges we face.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Stephen Linam   AWSD Austin  T/L: 678-3308  Bell-net: (512) 838-3308
sdl@austin.ibm.com                         IBM VNET: LINAM at AUSTIN
Quae narravi, nullo modo negabo.               I don't speak for IBM
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