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Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1992 13:31:45 CDT
Reply-To:     bradk%isdgsm@rtsg.mot.com
From:         Brad Kaiser <bradk%isdgsm@RTSG.MOT.COM>
Subject:      Re>Absolution
X-To:         CHRISTIA%ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU@motgate.mot.com

Wolfgang wrote:

>> "This would mean that if I confess to God I am not forgiven, because no
>> priest gave the absolution. How then can Protestants be forgiven? - If
>> on the other hand God forgives non-Catholics that confess to Him without
>> a priest giving the absolution, then the essential act would indeed be
>> confession to God - and the priest would indeed just declare the fact
>> that God has already forgiven the sins. I don't get these two statements
>> together."

Just to add to Leo's post, I'd like to point out that, even for
Catholics, forgiveness without absolution is abundantly possible, 'in
extremis'.

Penance and baptism are the only sacraments which the Catholic Church
deems necessary for salvation, and *both* can be received 'in voto';
literally, 'by desire'.  For example, suppose a Catholic commits a
serious sin.  He repents of that sin, and is on the way to church to
confess it, when he is hit by a car and killed.  What God sees is his
repentance; the fact that he never made it to confession is not
important.

However, that should not be interpreted to mean that a Catholic need
not confess; the ordinary ministry of forgiveness is auricular
confession, just as the ordinary ministry of baptism is water baptism.

"Repentance" and "intent to confess", for Catholics, should go
hand-in-hand, since real repentance should result in a desire to do
Christ's will, including that will He expressed when He instituted the
Sacrament of Reconciliation, as Scripture describes (Jn 20:23).

Brad Kaiser
(bradk%isdgsm@rtsg.mot.com)

  "Hatred destroys.  Only love creates."
            -- St. Maximilian Kolbe, shortly before his arrest and
               martyrdom at the hands of the Nazis.
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 08:13:39 CDT
From:         Yvette Traylor <YST1@DCCCDBIT.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: GOP Convention: The Setting

Bernice you asked,
>
> I probably shouldn't jump in this but... it should hurt Clinton from the
> Christian point of view.  All things we do to the glory of God.  If
> Homosexuality is an abomination to God, then we have a duty to consider
> it (Christians) when we are voting.  If we feel that abortion is against
> God's wishes, then we have a duty to consider it.  How can God be behind
> our leader if he is going against God?             ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I have a question for your question. How can God be behind someone who
continues to lie and use God as a cloak for his lies. President Bush
knows that he is lying when he says that he will cut taxes, and do this
and do that, just like he was lying four years ago when he said to read
his lips. I personally feel that God is probably not behind either one
of them, but who am I to say where God is and Where he isn't. :-)



   Yvette Traylor     "We are His people and the sheep of his pasture."
   Dallas County Community College District             Psalm 100:3
   Computer Programmer/Analyst  in  Dallas - Texas
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Date:         Mon, 31 Aug 1992 11:40:50 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Christian Youth

Yvette:

How old are the kids you teach?

Love INC,
         --Kerry
From: FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET (zane of dhahran)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Orthodox/somewhat orthodox/unorthodox
Date: 23 Aug 92 19:47:36 GMT
Organization: King Fahd University of Petroleum and Minerals, S.A.
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X-Acknowledge-To: <FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET>

Mark,

I tried to "e-mail" but it bounced back.  In your post of the other day on the
Order of Mans and other groups, you seemed to suggest that there was a location
al relationship between different groups that you mention.  (How is that for
diplomacy?)  Could you tell me if there are any "Orthodox" works that describe
or deal with spiritual "territoriality?"

Your mention of reincarnation reminded me of another group that I believe is
primarily on the East Coast.  The Agni Yoga Ashrams.  These guys "channel" a
group of evil spirits that call themselves the "Brotherhood."  They among other
things suggest that Christians are very very sick souls and need to be sent
on a few more reincarnational loops to cure their "karmic ills."  They  seem to
suggest this should be carried out with their help in mass.  They also have
links to Pseudo-christian Churches and communities.

As someone on the net quoted a wise woman to have said, "instant death is
instant glory!"
                                  Peace in the Prince of Peace, zane.
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 19:02:31 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Catholicism

Wait a minute:

When we pray *to* God, *through* Christ, with the assistance of
the HOLY SPIRIT, who is indwelling in *us*, why should we need
the outside intervention of anyone else?

God is *in* us as we pray; He hears instantaneously, and needs
no intermediaries, living or dead.

Love INC,
         --Kerry
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: jrussell@unlinfo.unl.edu (john russell)
Subject: The Bible and Homophobia
Organization: University of Nebraska - Lincoln
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 13:53:15 GMT


Afterthought to my last posting:

If anyone has a really long and scholarly answer, you can post
it directly to me and spare everyone else. My e-mail address is:

jrussell@unlinfo.unl.edu

Thanks!

jr

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Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 16:56:00 EDT
From:         Richard.Campbell@MVS.UDEL.EDU
Subject:      C.S. Lewis on Mary Flame Wars
X-To:         CHRISTIA%ASUACAD.BITNET@udelvm.udel.edu

 Well, of course he didn't write about  flame wars, but I thought the
following was appropriate when I recently reread it:

 (from "Mere Christianity" preface, p. 7):

  (Lewis is discussing why he did not write on certain controversial topics
within the Christian church.)

   Some people draw unwarranted conclusions from the fact that I never say
more about the Blessed Virgin Mary than is involved in asserting the Virgin
Birth of Christ.  But surely my reason for not doing so is obvious?  To say
more would take me at once into highly controversial regions.  And there is no
controversey between Christians which needs to be so delicately touched as
this. The Roman Catholic beliefs on that subject are held not only with the
ordinary fervour that attaches to all sincere religious belief, but (very
naturally) with the peculiar and, as it were, chivalrous sensibility that a
man feels when the honour of his mother or his beloved is at stake.  It is
very difficult so to dissent from them that you will not appear to them a cad
as well as a heretic.  And contrawise, the opposed Protestant beliefs on this
subject call forth feelings which go down to the very roots of all Monotheism
whatever.  To radical Protestants it seems that the distinction between
Creator and creature (however holy) is imperilled:  that Polytheism is risen
again. Hence it is hard so to dissent from them that you will not appear
something worse than a heretic -- a Pagan.  If any topic could be relied upon
to wreck a book about "mere" Christianity -- if any topic makes utterly
unprofitable reading for those who do not yet believe that the Virgin's son is
God -- surely this is it.

                       #    #      #

     (By the way, I work with a friend whose views on the issue are not the
same as mine.  But we don't let it hinder our relationship.  Try to imagine
the person on the other end of the keyboard.  Would you treat them differently
if they were sitting at the next desk?)

                                  In Christ,
                                             Rich
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
Subject: Re:      Clearing something up
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 21:55:39 GMT

In article <9208270619.AA21517@a-hp.au.oracle.com> Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM> writes:
>Apparently in a couple of posts I INADVERTANTLY type DEMONination instead
>of DENOMination.

   Ian, thanks for clearing that up.  I was pretty sure it was just a
typo, but I can't speak for everyone else who saw it.  No apologies
needed here.

--Steve

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
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Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 15:25:01 -0600
From:         Vernon Galloway <gallowav@CC.GETTYSBURG.EDU>
Subject:      RE:prayer request, college roommates

In Message Tue, 1 Sep 1992 09:56:03 EDT,
  carol nemec <YA67%FERRIS.BITNET@PSUVM.PSU.EDU> writes:

>Friends,
>
>We took my daughter to college last Saturday.  Her first year.
>I'm holding up okay :-)  but she is having some roommate
>problems already.  This was her greatest fear.  Her assigned
>roommate wants to share a room with a friend and has asked
>Sarah to trade.  Just the fact that she is asking this makes
>for complications.  She does not really know Sarah, and how
>wonderful she is :-).  They cannot trade for two weeks, so
>please pray that whatever happens works out well for Sarah.
>The girl she would be moving in with has already had her
>boyfriend overnight.  If Sarah refuses to move, I would
>assume her roommate would harbor some hard feelings.  Sarah
>is in an awkward position either way.
>
>Thanks for your prayers.
>
>Carol Nemec

Carol, you will have the prayers of many.  When my daughter went off to
college, she got a very incompatable roommate assignment.  The first thing
the other girl did was fill their room refrigerator with beer.  She kept
badgering my daughter about studying, ""no one is watching you, why study?"
Before the room reassignment my daughter had met several very nice Christian
girls, one of whom was also searching for a new roommate.  We will pray that
your daughter has a similar experience.

Vernon


Vernon Galloway
Gettysburg College
MicroComputer Technician
gallowav@gettysburg.edu
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Date:         Sun, 30 Aug 1992 16:15:15 EDT
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      Whately on Napoleon
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET, BSTUDY-L@UTARLVM1.BITNET,
              IVCF-L@UBVM.BITNET

     In the early 1800's, some prominent non-Christians were arguing
that it was unreasonable to believe the story of Jesus of Nazareth
on the basis of human testimony. Instances of men who can turn water
to wine are, to say the least unusual, while instances of lying
witnesses are a dime a dozen. It is therefore more likely that the
witnesses are lying than that the alleged miracle occurred.
     Richard Whately replied to this by pointing out that instances
of someone's conquering most of Europe are, to say the least,
unusual; and that by the same line of reasoning, it is more likely
that the witnesses are lying than that the army of Napoleon has
occupied Moscow.
     Some weeks back, there was a brief exchange on the list
CHRISTIA about this argument. For the benefit of interested readers,
I have placed the original Whately essay in the CHRISTIA Library. To
obtain a copy, send the message GET DOUBTS NAPOLEON to
LISTSERV@ASUACAD.

     For a list of the contents of the CHRISTIA Library, send the
message GET LIBRARY CATALOG to LISTSERV@ASUACAD.

 Yours,
 James Kiefer
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Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 09:47:35 MST
From:         Madge McBurney <ISPMOM@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: 2nd Coming Discussion
X-cc:         Lon Mendelsohn <LMENDELS@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU>
              2 Sep 1992 12:01:55 EDT from <LMENDELS@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU>

On Wed, 2 Sep 1992 12:01:55 EDT Lon Mendelsohn said:
>Folks,
>
>Recently Dan Graham posted a message regarding some of the questions raised
>by passages in Daniel and Revelation vis-a-vis Jesse's series on the 2nd
>coming.  I have been saving this discussion and I inadvertantly deleted
>this message.  If anyone out there still has a copy, would you please
>forward it to me?  I already asked Dan, and he doesn't keep his messages.

Lon, you will be receiving a file from Listserv containing Dan's post.

Madge McBurney
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Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 15:52:13 EDT
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      For Sunday 6 August 1992

FOR SUNDAY 6 SEPTEMBER 1992

READING: Deuteronomy 30:15-20
 (Moses, in his farewell address to the people of Israel, tells them
that two ways lie open before them, the way of blessing and life in
service to the LORD, and the way of cursing and death in service to
the false gods of the Canaanites.)

PSALM 1
 (The man who delights in the LORD has life and blessing, not so the
ungodly.)

EPISTLE: Philemon 1-20 (or 1-25)
 (Paul writes this covering letter for a runaway slave Onesimus, who
is voluntarily returning to his master. Paul reminds the owner that
he is dealing with a brother in Christ.)

THE HOLY GOSPEL: Luke 14:25-33
 (Jesus reminds would-be followers that following Him means total
commitment, and with two brief parables warns His hearers to count
the cost of discipleship.)

PRAYER
   Grant us, O Lord, we pray thee, to trust in thee with all our
   heart; seeing that, as thou dost alway resist the proud who
   confide in their own strength, so thou dost not forsake those
   who make their boast of thy mercy; through Jesus Christ our
   Lord, who liveth and reigneth with thee and the Holy Spirit,
   one God, for ever and ever.
From: A16905@ITESO.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: somalia
Date: 28 Aug 92 17:28:13 GMT
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Why don't we start the prayer group with this ?  Let's pray for our Somalian
brothers and Sisters.

What do you think ?

Shalom,
Memo.
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Date:         Thu, 3 Sep 1992 21:19:41 EDT
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      WHile the ages Roll

   does anyone have the   words to While the ages Roll or as the Ages Shall
Roll or something similiar?  THis is a most beautiful Praise song.
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Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 12:17:00 +1000
From:         Ken Diefenbach <DIEFENBAK@TOPAZ.UCQ.EDU.AU>
Subject:      Re: Prayers for Sarah
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU

    Hmm. Like many people, I guess I can dish out advice more easily than I
can take it. This time however I've take my own advice.

    When Brenda C-W's husband (I'm sorry - i _think_ it was David) requested
prayer for Sarah I was glad to oblige (and I'm still praying...), and I also
reminded him to trust in the sufficiency of our God. Well about 3 hours later
I found myself doing _exactly_ that.

    Kyle (some of you may remember him - yes it's the same son with the
developmental delay) started limping very badly at pre-school yesterday.
It wasn't his day (he goes on alternate days) but mum was down there helping
organize recipe books as part of a fund-raising activity. The first thought
was he'd been sitting down somehow and was a bit stiff.

    Next time his mother looks, he's lying on his back and not moving, glassy
eyed. Then when he started to walk, it was awful to behold. Left leg (his
better one usually - he often "hesitates" a little on his right) out an
awful angle, with the rigid strength of jelly (jello to you U.S. folks).

    Off to the doctor. Off to X-rays at the hospital that haunts his
memories after an eye accident last year. Nothing showing on the Xray. I
can't get a full description of what the doctor told Lyn - once the word
"traction" was mentioned as a possibility her brain went into damage
control. I don't think she heard much after that.

    We can't get into an orthopaedic surgeon until Monday afternoon local
time. So we're in limbo til then. We are both leaving it with the One who
knows more about what is going on than we do.

    Kyle is quite chirpy, and the limp is not _as_ pronounced today. There
has already been a great deal of prayer over and for him. I guess the most
devastating part of the ordeal was that his walk looked ominously like that
of the children we saw at the local spastic centre when Kyle was tested for
cerebral palsy.

    We're hanging on in faith. Actually by God's grace we're probably doing
better than that - in His strength, not ours. If only Monday were not so far
away.....

    Thank you Lord for the strength and support you provide us when we "reach
the end of our hoarded resources".

    Ken Diefenbach
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Original_To:  CHRISTIA
Original_cc:  HUTTER
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 09:35:00 N
From:         Wolfgang Hutter <HUTTER@DULRUU51.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: "Homophobic?" for Bernice

In a message of Wed, 26 Aug 1992 16:33:02 GMT
Received on Wed, 26 Aug 92 19:09 N
78witherspoo@CUA.EDU wrote:

>--> True, two wrongs don't make a right.  But you say "A lot of things are
>       in the Bible", so what kind of clothes are you wearing today?  Are they
>       made out of a cotton/poly blend?  Well, according to the bible, you
>       have committed a sin.

Tom, you haven't read your Bible carefully enough! The law you just
referred to was valid for the Jews. As you may remember of all those
laws only some were laid upon the non-Jewish Christians:

ACT 15:28  For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay
 upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
ACT 15:29  That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from
 blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which
 if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Btw: I'm no Greek scholar, but I suspect that homosexuality would fall
under 'fornication' in this context.

>--> No one is asking you to do that.  What I would like to see happen (and the
>       author of the piece would agree with me) is that the Bible cease to
>       function as a political weapon.

Just today I received a letter in which the writer states that the
author of the piece used the Bible for 'political reasons'. So I would
doubt that he would agree with you... And telling that  * practicing *
homosexuality (not  * being *  homophile!) is sin is not a political
issue in the first place.

>--> Christians need to do more than just pray.  Christians need to call for a
>       "cease-fire" of sorts on this issue.  Let God do the judging, that is
>       His job, there are other concerns on Earth that we could devote our
>       energy towards.

Sorry, but I have to disagree once more, since we are urged by the Word
of God that we are

CO1 5:11  [...] not to keep company, if
 any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or
 an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with
 such an one no not to eat.

To condemn people to hell is not our job, indeeed. But keeping silent
about peoples' sins is not helping anyone!

Wolfgang <><
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Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 06:24:19 EDT
From:         Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: FYI: homophobic
              25 Aug 1992 11:17:00 MDT from <SKLEPZI@SSB1.SAFF.UTAH.EDU>

        Steven,

        Yes, the proper definition of "homophobia" is "irrational fear of
        homosexuality or homosexuals".  However, any expression of disap-
        proval of homosexual intercourse or of disagreement with the
        political agenda of the homosexual activist movement is called
        "homophobia".  It is a propaganda term used to smear and discred-
        it opponents of homosexual conduct and the homosexual movement.
        If this opposition is a "phobia", an "irrational fear" there is
        no need to take it seriously.  There is no need to listen to the
        people who express the opposition or listen to our arguments and
        evidence.

        Marty Helgesen
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From: FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET (zane of dhahran)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: wild and wooly charismatics
Date: 30 Aug 92 10:07:53 GMT
Organization: King Fahd University of Petroleum and Minerals, S.A.
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X-Acknowledge-To: <FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET>

Friends, those of you that read these sorts of things might be interested to
know that Kelly Varner is coming out with a new book soon.  Also, Don Nori has
recently published a new one of his own and Aron Katz will have a new book
published soon too.  All of them should curl a few fundy toe-nails and be good
reads for the wild and wooly "third stream" types.   If you know what in the
world I am talking about, this message is for you.   P
                                                     E
                                                   PEACE   F,H,& L zane.
                                                     C
                                                     E
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 16:09:06 EDT
From:         carol nemec <YA67@FERRIS.BITNET>
Subject:      Concerned Women for America

Does anyone have information on the group Concerned Women for America?

If so, please e-mail me at the following address - SRAutry@Samford

Thanks,

Renee


I'd like this information also.  Thanks...
Carol Nemec
YA67@FERRIS
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Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 02:56:59 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Prayer Request

Hi all:

Please pray for my friend Joanne.  I feel that she is closer to
accepting Jesus now than she has ever been before.  She is going
through a great deal of re-evaluation of her life, and she is
considering what I have told her about giving her life to God.

Pray that she may open her heart, that He may come in.

Love INC,
         --Kerry
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 15:13:00 EST
From:         HENZLEEF@SNYBUFVA.BITNET
Subject:      Re: "Homophobic?" for Bernice

It could also be the spirit of truth.  Elaine.
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