HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: aaronm@ccmail.orst.edu (Mithran Aaron)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Tolkien Societies & Re: List of Books
Date: 17 Dec 1992 05:17:56 GMT
Organization: Oregon State University Libraries
NNTP-Posting-Host: standdx26.kerr.orst.edu


>---
>
>There are probably many more such societies, books, Lists, etc. that I
>don't know about.  Hope this helps.
>
>Thorongil
>
> 
thank you for the information.

Mithran
From: det@phlan.sw.stratus.com (David Toland)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Musical score
Date: 15 Dec 1992 13:22:30 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Software Engineering
NNTP-Posting-Host: phlan.sw.stratus.com

In article <6af22=c@rpi.edu> gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu (Garance A. Drosehn) writes:
>I always thought that "Battle for Evermore" might be written around some  
>parts of LOTR (among other things).  The battle for Rohan (*) in particular.   
The "Battle of Evermore" pretty clearly focuses on the Battle of Minas Tirith.
Much of it deals with the despair felt by the besieged defenders, and the
doubt whether the ring should have been wielded there instead of sent to
the fire "Bring the balance back, bring it back...".



-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
All opinions are MINE MINE MINE, and not necessarily anyone else's.
det@phlan.sw.stratus.com   |  "Laddie, you'll be needin' something to wash
                           |  that doon with."
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: hasch@chem.queensu.ca (Hartmut Schmider)
Subject: Re: Tolkien a Racist?
Followup-To: alt.fan.tolkien
Organization: Dept. of Chemistry, Queen's University
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 23:25:58 GMT

Klaus Ole Kristiansen writes (quoting a Tolkien letter):
>
>I am not sure what you mean by "Arish". I am not of aryan
>extraction, that is none of my ancestors were Gypsies, and
>none spoke Hindi, 
>(here we see the linguist)
>If, as I suspect, what you really want to know is if I
>am a Jew, I am sorry to say that I have no connection
>with that gifted people.

That pretty much clears up the question. Lets move to more
interesting ones.

Hartmut
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: craig@b11.b11.ingr.com (Craig Presson)
Subject: Re: Machines named by Tolkien's characters
Organization: Intergraph Corp. Huntsville, AL
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 14:23:19 GMT


Another blast-from-the-past: The kernel debugger for DG AOS/VS,
AOS/RT32, etc., OS's was named Palang^ul, a (possibly questionable)
Elvish neologism for "far-seeing wraith". The Palangul spec
explained the etymology.

-- Craig
  "It is written in the language of Mordor, which I will not
  utter here" -- Gandalf
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: hammekr@eng.auburn.edu (Kenneth R. Hammett)
Subject: Re: Tolkien a Racist?
Reply-To: hammekr@eng.auburn.edu
Organization: Auburn University Engineering
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 02:51:34 GMT

In article 92Dec12235108@hydroman.hut.fi, eheimone@niksula.hut.fi (Esko Heimonen) writes:
>Yes, and provided that England is somewhere near the Grey Havens, Angmar
>could have moved to Scandinavia/Finland during the cataclysms...
>
>Esko Heimonen
>eheimone@hydroman.hut.fi

After having lived through a long winter in Kajaani, Finland, I
would have to concur that Angmar was somewhere close.  ;*)

Seriously, while I agree that we can't exclude the possibility
of Tolkien having the "genteel racist" attitude quite
common during his generation, I find it interesting to note
the lengths he goes to at times to show that many of the
extremely different races are "equal" with strengths in
different areas.  For example, the forest people (what was their
name?...) on the road to Gondor.  While they are primitive in a
way that might have suggested the "dark continent" to his
generation, I never get a feeling that they are morally inferior
to the Gondorians.  Correct me on this if I'm wrong, my memory
is kinda sketchy about that point in the story.  I'm always so
anxious to get to the part on the battlefield.  :)


*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*
*                                                               *
*  Rich Hammett                      "Why does it happen?       *
*  Rich.Hammett@eng.auburn.edu         Because it happens.      *
*                                        Roll the Bones!"       *
*                                                               *
*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*
From: urmvance@memstvx1.memst.edu (Richard Vance)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Should LOTR Movie be Made?
Date: 17 Dec 92 01:01:48 -0600
Organization: Memphis St Univ's CS Mecca

In article <BzA9wB.5zD@unix.amherst.edu>, jdliss@unix.amherst.edu (Jeff Liss) writes:
> All the talk of casting is very interesting, but some people have expressed
> that no such movie should ever be made because it would ruin Tolkein's
> vision, or that it would ruin one's ability to envision the characters
> for oneself.  Well, I disagree.  The cartoon movies certainly don't affect
> my imagination very much though I saw them before I read the books.  Those
> images may stick in your head a little bit (Dune) but if you really love
> the books, a reinterpretation won't faze you too much.  After all, some
> people talk like making a movie would be some sort of attempt to replace
> the books, which of course is impossible.

Well, I've not been convinced yet that a star-studded cast would be necessary
or even desirable. Put a bunch of VERY good actors in that nobody has heard of,
and it seems to me less likely that the big-name star will take over and,
hence, ruin the character. Rather, the actor would easily be molded, if you
will, by the character. It worked for _Star_Wars_, right? True, the big name
cast worked for _Robin_Hood_ and _Batman_, but I think we'll all agree that
this is a different matter. But it was fun working out the casts in our minds!
          ______                         ____
 _____   [__  __]     ||\  ||\           DDDD_
 ||  \\   __||__      ||___||\    /|     D---D     \\\\////     (  ( c  |-
 ||__//  [______]  _  ||---||\   /_|  R  D___D       \\//  //\\ )\ )    |-
 ||  \\           (_  ||   ||\  /  |     DDDD-                  ( \(    |-
                       \\   \\           ----
Richard Vance URMVANCE@memstvx1.memst.edu * Memphis St University, Memphis, TN
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: zelevin@athena.mit.edu (Vladimir V Zelevinsky)
Subject: Re: Foriegn Translations of LOTR
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Distribution: alt.fan.tolkien
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 04:25:19 GMT

Just couple of words regarding the Russian translation
(at least the fullest one, there were a lot of abridged
ones going around on the floppy disks).

I REALLY don't like it.  And the part which completely
spoils it is the translation of the names - not the translation
itself, to be exact, but how they have done it.
The names in the Shire are just plain stupid (for example,
Shire = 'Hobbitania'); but the others are just horrible.
I think it was just a plain error to use a language of the
ancient Russian legends to translate The Lord of the Rings.

I suppose the way to translate IN ANY LANGUAGE is to try to use
the words of the English origin.

--
Vladimir.
zelevin@athena.mit.edu

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk)
Subject: Re: Technology and Morality in LOTR
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 21:04:55 GMT

steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson) writes:
>I disagree -- while I do think it has part of Sauron's power, I don't believe
>it is simply a tool for expansion of power.  As a matter of fact, I see very
>little evidence that the Ring ever tried to get back to Sauron.  It would 
>have been far happier with a suitable tool it could dominate (like Boromir)
>than with the domineering Lord of the Rings.  And in the end, it was the Ring's
>own pride that caused its destruction.

In what way did the Ring show "pride" and in what way did this cause
its destruction?
I fail to see how the Ring could have tried to get back to Sauron in a more
effective way.  Its powers were limited to psychological manipulation of
the ring-bearer and probably one or two people within very close proximity.

>Dale J. Stephenson |*| (steph@cs.uiuc.edu) |*| Baseball fanatic

					Michael Lewchuk
					lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: erick@snagglepuss.engin.umich.edu (erick  alvarado)
Subject: Re: Eowyn (was Re: Elf-human pairings)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 00:03:45 EST
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor
Originator: erick@snagglepuss.engin.umich.edu


In article <15DEC199208585289@zeus.tamu.edu>, sam4628@zeus.tamu.edu writes:
>    Also, has no one noticed that (when she gives up fighting and marries) she
> marries a man who wasn't all that enamoured with fighting to begin with?
> If she has "lowered" her standards, then Faramir had low standards to start
> with.  Arguably (since the point is made that the love of battle for its own
> sake is a lessening of men) her change of attitude is toward the more noble.
> That she happens to marry someone of like mind may not even be relevant.
> It's not like she married someone like Boromir, so that she could tend
> house while he was out "winning glory".  The point I'm trying to make is
> that (in Tolkien's universe) Eowyn didn't lower herself when she changed
> her attitude; rather, she raised her standards.  Did any of this make sense,
> or am I babbling? (be kind! :-)
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> | Steven A. McCluney                 |"Strange women lying in ponds    |
> | sam4628@zeus.tamu.edu              | distributing swords is no basis |
> | I'm a grad student, so my opinions | for a system of government!"    |
> |    are worthless anyway            |          Dennis, to King Arthur |
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Excellent point.  While battles and "winning glory" are part of the War of
the Ring, Tolkien also seems to have another underlying motif.  Notice how 
Gandalf mentions that arms alone cannot win against Sauron.  Frodo is the
perfect example: he does not "win glory" by force of arms.  Rather, he has
a far greater task than just a mere battle here and there.

So when any character renounces warlike ways, IMHO it's an improvement...
And Faramir was never truly interested in glory anyway...

Anyway, one of my favorite scenes is Eowyn and Merry against the Lord of
Nazgul...

-Erick
erick@engin.umich.edu
"I'm a grad student, too...does that mean I don't count?"  :-)
From: swann@acsu.buffalo.edu (Stephen Swann)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Movie Roles ....
Date: 12 Dec 92 22:05:41 GMT
Organization: UB

In article <539@blue.cis.pitt.edu> genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave) writes:
>I guess I have to add my bit...
>
>Aragorn:	Gregory Peck would have been perfect 30 years ago.  Rutger
>		Hauer will get a role, but he doesn't have the majestic
>		persona Aragorn needs.

Aragorn is probably the hardest (non-Hobbit :-) character to cast.  Probably
best to get an "unknown" actor.

>Gandalf:	Too late for John Gielgud; Leonard Nimoy isn't a bad idea.

Hey, I never thought of that, but I can actually see it...

>Theoden:	I like Anthony Quinn for this one.  He can play both the
>		hopeless old man and the vigorous old man, and play them
>		well.  And you can pass his accent off as "Rohanish". :-)
>
>Denethor:	Derek Jacobi, Peter O'Toole, or maybe Gregory Peck *now*.

I was thinking of Peter Cushing for Denthor.  And I think Derek Jacobi
would make a good Theoden.

Arwen:       How about the female lead from "Last of the Mohicans"?

"Wormtongue":    -Definitely- Rowan Atkinson.  Definitely.  ;-)  [Although
                he's so good with "mannerisms" that I could see him playing
                a "princely" character instead.

Celeborn:      Michael York, maybe?  (tough call)

>Faramir:	Maybe here's where we put Rutger Hauer.

I'd make him one of Sharkey's men, or maybe the "mouth of Sauron".  ;-)

-- 
Steve Swann                 |    Speak to me in many voices; make
swann@acsu.buffalo.edu      |      them all sound like one...  -BOC
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: bartlone@med.ge.com (Michel Bartolone)
Subject: Re: Movie roles
Reply-To: bartlone@med.ge.com
Organization: GE Medical Systems
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 14:49:17 GMT

In article H81@acsu.buffalo.edu, sulkom@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Mark Sulkowski) writes:
>In article <1992Dec15.172546.22578@mr.med.ge.com>, bartlone@zeke.gemedical writes...
>
>>As to the Hobbits, what about some of the 'little people' from 'Willow'..
>
>	ARGGH!  Sorry, I really don't think that would work out well.
>It may just be my personal taste.
>
>
>Mark

I want more information on your objection..is it their acting, their look, or
just the fact that they were in that damn sappy movie? I think the guy that
played Willow looks like Frodo...most of the others wouldn't work, but He and
one or two others could play the 'key hobbits'...

---
sigs are like sound-bites..they never say enough, but frequently
are interpreted as saying too much.....bartlone@gemed.ge.com
From: det@phlan.sw.stratus.com (David Toland)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Balrogs vs. Ringwraiths ... and a questi
Date: 16 Dec 1992 20:14:26 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Software Engineering
NNTP-Posting-Host: phlan.sw.stratus.com

Why does the Balrog remain within Moria?  Maybe a very simple reason - Moria
is a dark deep place comfortable to a being of that nature.  Why leave it
for a world in burning sunlight half the time?

BTW, someone asked if it was sexist to refer to the Balrog in the masculine.
Well, Gandalf does so in relating his tale to Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli
in Fangorn Wood.


-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
All opinions are MINE MINE MINE, and not necessarily anyone else's.
det@phlan.sw.stratus.com   |  "Laddie, you'll be needin' something to wash
                           |  that doon with."
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: seurer@rchland.vnet.ibm.com (Bill Seurer)
Subject: Re: The Hobbit
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 20:36:38 GMT
Reply-To: BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Rochester

In article <Bz3wLn.JxE@unixhub.SLAC.Stanford.EDU>, kelsey@jupiter.SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Mike Kelsey) writes:
|> In article <1992Dec11.163120.9996@rchland.ibm.com>, seurer@rchland.vnet.ibm.com (Bill Seurer) writes:
|> Whatever you buy, *please* buy a Ballantine paperback edition, or a Houghton
|> Miflin hardcover.  As Tolkien points out in his preface to _The_Hobbit_, the
|> other American editions were pirate copies, and don't pay royalties.
|> HM/Ballantine is the authorized U.S. publisher.

My old paperbacks were from Ballentine and were the very first books I 
bought for myself.  I distinctly remember where and when I bought them
and even who I was with some 18 years ago.  Not something I can say about 
much of anything else from that long ago.  I was so excited 'cause 
I wouldn't have to be checking them out from the library all the time.

I don't remember who printed the leather-bound edition I (sniff) had.
-- 

- Bill Seurer     Language and Compiler Development      IBM Rochester, MN
  Internet: BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com    America On-Line: BillSeurer@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: arsmith@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Alan Smith)
Subject: Re: Movie Roles ....
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 04:44:37 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO  80523

In article <Bz3LB9.28F@access.digex.com> dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) writes:
>In article <1992Dec9.223512.29285@selway.umt.edu> sh666@selway.umt.edu (Dave) writes:
>>Very interesting topic.. have to add my two bits worth..
>>
>>Boromir - The guy who played the leader of the 'eagle men' in
>>          the Flash Gordon movie..
>He'd deserve a much better role than that.  He's a much better actor than
>he showed in Flash Gordon.  For example, did you know he played Augustus
>in "I Claudius",  Old Deuteronomy in the London production of "Cats",
>Robin's father in the Kevin Costner "Robin Hood", and Henry's most
>prominant uncle in Brannagh's "Henry V."  This is a guy whose career has
>been all over the horizon...
>BTW: His name is Brian Blessed (it just sprung into my mind...)

You forgot King Richard IV in "The Black Adder."

If not Boromir, then Theodoen?  Maybe Elrond if Nimoy's playing Gandalf.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: stas@netcom.com (Stanislav Malyshev)
Subject: Re: Led Zeppelin (Tolkien Music) [and RUSH]
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 15:13:30 GMT

Enya's _Shepherd Moons_ album has a track called "Lorien" (or was it
"Lothlorien"..)

-S
-- 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stan Malyshev		|    Open up the windows and let the fresh air out,
stas@soda.berkeley.edu	|    said the television to the shackled children..
stas@netcom.com		|		- King Missile
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: leitm@solb1.essex.ac.uk (Leith M F)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Thomas Covenant
Date: 12 Dec 92 13:40:38 GMT
Reply-To: leitm@essex.ac.uk (Leith M F)
Organization: University of Essex, Colchester, UK

In article <Bz2Evs.L5I@acsu.buffalo.edu> sulkom@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Mark Sulkowski) writes:
>In article <Bz22E0.D7w@access.digex.com>, dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) writes...
>>(Incidently, one thing I particularly liked about the Covenant books.
>>The protaganist felt genuinely guilty about killing orc-equivalents.
>>I found that a refreshing change after Legolas and Gimli's contest
>>at Helm's Deep to see who could kill more enemy cannon fodder.)
>
>	Agreed.
>
Oh my god, people aren't trying to apply political correctness to the 
slaying of orcs now, are they ? :-)
What you appear to be overlooking is that orcs *deserve* death generally.
Orcs delight in torturing their captured enemies (including defenceless women
e.g Finduilas was speared to a tree by an orc).  They also have no respect 
for other life, even of their own kin (e.g the Shagrat vs Gorbag conflict).
Furthermore, Gimli's and Legolas's folk  had both suffered dearly at the
hands of orcs; it is hardly surprising they want revenge really, is it ?
I think orcs are supposed to be creatures so evil that there is no guilt in
slaying one. 

Mig.
From: joannek@ems.cdc.com (Joanne Kube-Harderwijk)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Eowyn
Date: 15 Dec 92 20:02:39 GMT
Reply-To: joannek@ems.cdc.com
Organization: Empros Systems International, a division of CDC

I think all this talk about lowering her standards is nonsense.  Eowyn, as I 
recall, wanted to marry the king, i.e. she wanted to be the queen, (duty and 
all that stuff).  After the battle she realized what a stupid ambition this 
really was and decided what she really wanted was to serve and be happy.
Not only did Faramir love her, but she learned she could return his love.
This was a much more fulfilling ambition and one to which she could 
contribute something.
From: swann@acsu.buffalo.edu (Stephen Swann)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Should LOTR Movie be Made?
Date: 19 Dec 92 05:17:10 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: UB

In article <BzA9wB.5zD@unix.amherst.edu> jdliss@unix.amherst.edu (Jeff Liss) writes:
>IMO, the toughest task of a LOTR movie would be to get a director
>who will 'stay true to the spirit of the books' and not turn it into
>his own personal statement, while yet being telnted enough to do 
>justice to the books.  Anyone have any suggestions?  I don't think
>Coppola could do it (not after DRACULA), nor Kubrick (see THE SHINING);
>perhaps Bertolucci or Scott?

Terry Gilliam (_Brazil_, _The Adventures of Baron Von Munchausen_, 
               _The Fisher King_).

Having seen what a fantastic he job did with the near-plotless
_Adventures of Baron Von Munchausen_, I can only imagine what he could
do if he actually had good material to work with...  

_Munchausen_ was an almost unparalleled fantasy film, from a purely
aesthetic standpoint (it's really too bad the plot sucked).  But
based on what he achieved with that film, I bet Gilliam could make a 
_brilliant_ LotR.

-- 
Steve Swann                 |    Speak to me in many voices; make
swann@acsu.buffalo.edu      |      them all sound like one...  -BOC
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: woodam@aix.rpi.edu (Matthew G. Woodard)
Subject: Rivendell
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 21:33:04 GMT

What ever happened to Rivendell, and Lorien, after the passing of the
ringbearers to the west?  Before the war, these places were havens for
those fighting Sauron.  What did they become after the war?  Throughout
the books, Rivendell is referred to as a place where great healing can
take place....both in body and mind.  Is this due to Elrond's ring, or
simply because the person is surrounded by the elvish kind?

Could it be that they were abandoned?  

One other thing: I believe that it was not the power of the Elven ring 
which Galadriel wore that made time stop for the growing things in
Lorien....I can't remember where, but I remember reading something 
saying that Celebrimbor, grandson of Geanor and creator of the Three
Elven Rings was in love with Galadriel, and made her the Second Elf-Stone,
Elessar, as a token of his feelings and respect. (I believe that she ruled
Ost-in-Edhil (Eregion, west of Moria) at the time)  This is what gave her
this power.......right?

woodam@rpi.edu

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU (James Alexander Chokey)
Subject: Re: Eowyn
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 21:34:45 GMT

In article <1992Dec17.134052.22089@lgc.com> mbs@zycor.lgc.com (Matt Shostak) writes:

>
>How about an alternate explanation.  It is not because she is a woman per se,
>but because she is a woman of the ROYAL LINE that she is not allowed to go.
>Perhaps her use of the word "shieldmaiden" in one of her discussions
>suggests that there were such fighting women in Rohan, but just that she
>was not allowed to be one of them.

	Actually, the term "shieldmaiden" appears a couple of times--  and
I agree it does suggest the possibility that there were "fighting woman" in
Rohan.  However, there are no other "shieldmaidens" anywhere in the text of
LOTR.  No women ride with Eomer's company in the battle outside of Fangorn,
no women go off with Theoden's armies to battle against Saruman, and no women
(other than Eowyn, of course) with the Rohirrim to do battle in Gondor. There
is clearly only one shieldmaiden in LOTR, and that shieldmaiden is Eowyyn.

	--  Jim C. <jchokey@leland.stanford.edu>


Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: bil@okcforum.osrhe.uoknor.edu (Bill Conner)
Subject: Racism Survives!
Organization: Okcforum Unix Users Group
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 22:46:57 GMT

This whole issue of racism has become tedious. It's as if those
complaining about it have no other means of identifying themselves,
that their race (or that of those they claim to defend) is the only
distinctive feature they can use to ennoble themselves.
What arrogance to judge another generation by our "standards"! Tolkien
lived in and understood a world very different from ours, he was a
product of his Age, just as we are of ours. What was "Scientific" fact
to him or his contemporaries, my seem questionable in some regards,
not because the facts have changed, but rather because we choose to
interpret them differently. The whole issue is nothing but
interpretation, and it is an absolute certainty that our
interpretations will bw judged in their turn by future dillitantes and
pseudo-scholars.

bil@ockforum.uoknor.edu