HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hyler@ast.saic.com (Buffy Hyler)
Subject: Re: Dressing Self (was Re: Spanking and toilet
Reply-To: hyler@ast.saic.com
Organization: SAIC
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 21:24:41 GMT

I've heard that most kids will outgrow this phase due to the new
"I want to do it" phase.  Unfortunately this didn't happen with
David.  As far as dressing went it was "Mommy do it".  I let it
go until he was about 4 and then announced a week before his fourth
birthday that he would do all the dressing for himself but I would
help with the pullover shirts.  He grumbled but lucky for me was
in an agreeable mood and eventually would do this.  It helped
seriously if I just did the shirt for him and then left his room.
Otherwise I'd get requests for "Mommy do it" in one of those
sweet-aren't-I-just-the-cutest-little-boy tones.  David's about
to turn 6 (February) and already I have told him that he will
now be putting on his own shirt.  I've seen him do it a few times
and he seems to have the knack, as long as it's big enough to have
some adjusting room.

I do know this is pretty much part of David's nature.  He very much
resists trying new things and in some instances we let it go and in
others we eventually end up with some gentle pushing/reasoning until
he does it.  In far too many cases I've noticed that once he does it
once there is no problem with getting him to do it again.  It's just
that darn first time.  The very, very best motivator, I've noticed,
is if he sees another kid his size/age doing it.  I think David would
have had a far easier time if he was a second kid rather than being
an only.

Good luck!
---
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Buffy Hyler (hyler@ast.saic.com)
SAIC, Campus Point
San Diego, California
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: allen@tessi.com (Allen Warren)
Subject: Re: Diaper Services - worth it ?
Organization: Test Systems Strategies, Inc., Beaverton, Oregon
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 23:57:38 GMT

elise@ticipa.pac.sc.ti.com (Elise Wade) writes:

>As I recall, National Geographic did a very interesting article
>on land fills about 1- 2 years ago.  One of the things I recall being
>surprised by was the lack of pathogenic bacteria.  They were specifically
>testing for bacteria they expected to be present from human waste
>in disposables -- there simply wasn't any.  

>The biggest % of landfills -- about 1 / 2 in fact -- is taken up by 
>newspaper.  The next biggest items is yard wastes, such as grass 
>clippings.  So, if you *really* care about the environment, stop 
>buying newspapers (they don't have the capacity to recycle all 
>that is produced) and put your leaves and grass clippings in a 
>compost pile.

I read somewhere (maybe GARBAGE?) that one of the reasons for
the hoopla over disposables is because it targets a specific
industry and population segment.  The fact that so many people
in so many different walks of life read newspapers or send grass
clippings to the dump makes it difficult to target, unlike those
using disposable diapers.  Don't know if this is true, but considering
the percentage of landfill junk that's diapers vs. newspapers and
yard clippings makes me kinda' wonder . . .   =|

allen
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: jxr@macaroni.cis.ohio-state.edu (J Ramanujam)
Subject: info needed on the pros and cons of alpha-feto-protein test
Organization: The Ohio State University Dept. of Computer and Info. Science
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 05:07:04 GMT

I'd appreciate any information on the pros and cons of alpha-feto-protein
screening. My wife, 32, is pregnant for the first time. The informatin
we have on this test is that the number of false positives is very high
and that it's not routinely recommended due to the long series of 
follow-up tests (including a amniocentesis). This leaves us wondering
if we should opt to have AFP done. 

Some information that may be relevant in our case: my age is 30 (and
my wife, as mentioned above, is 32 and is extremely healthy). And the
estimated due date is accurate according to the sonogram, based on
which she is 17 weeks now. (The test is supposed to be more
accurate between the 16th and the 18th weeks.)

If there is sufficient interest, I'll post a summary of hte
responses.

- Ramanujam
From: dxf12@po.CWRU.Edu (Douglas Fowler)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: What is a spanking
Date: 13 Nov 92 02:36:04 GMT
Reply-To: dxf12@po.CWRU.Edu (Douglas Fowler)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc12.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, petel@sequent.com (Pete Lancashire) says:

>dxf12@po.CWRU.Edu (Douglas Fowler) writes:
>
>
>Plese don't take this a flame, 
>
>>seconds of pain (maybe kids 5 and up can take more like 30 seconds without
>>being too traumatized), but doesn't bruise, it's a licking.  Anything that
>>causes bruises or worse is a beating.  How is that for appropriate
>>network terminology?
>
>Be careful, just because there is no 'bruise' it does not mean that the
>child is not 'too traumatize', the boy I have been helping went through
>'spanking' between 8 and 10 where the step-father has admitted to me that
>he had to stop because his hand, wrist and arm hurt to much.(the step
>father not the kid), the goal of the man was to get the boy to 'cry' or
>admit to what he had done wrong, The boy showed no sign of being
>'tramatized' or any sign of pain, no bruises. Again this is not what
>Doug is promoting, but take care on defining what can cause trama,
>or pain. Even younger children 'can take it' if they want to 'prove
>a point'.

     Sorry if I was incoherent - what I meant was 30 seconds OF SORENESS.
Going off and hitting a kid for 30 seconds is child abuse.  Maybe I should
just take my post down and start over, if it was that misunderstood; I
thought I made myself clear.
-- 
Doug Fowler: dxf12@po.CWRU.edu  : Me, age 4 & now: "Mommys and Daddys & other
   "Thou shalt love God with all: relatives have to give lots of hugs & love
thy heart...*and thy neighbor as: & support, 'cause Heaven is just a great
thyself*." Luke 10:27           : big hug that lasts forever and ever!!!"
From: dsegelho@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Diane Segelhorst)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Dressing Self (was Re: Spanking and toilet training
Date: 5 Nov 92 19:02:32 GMT
Reply-To: dsegelho@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Diane Segelhorst)
Organization: Annapolis Detachment, CDNSWC

In misc.kids, mhn@cs.brown.edu (Marian H. Nodine) writes:
>In article <1992Nov04.012916.2218325@locus.com> judy@locus.com (Judy Leedom Tyr
>er) writes:
>>Erin was toilet trained all summer.  But she doesn't have the dexterity to
>>pull pants on and off and now that she has to be in clothes she wants to
>>be in diapers as well.  She just toileted so she could go naked.  No problem.
>>We have until next September when she starts school so we put her back
>>in diapers.  I thought she was too young anyway.  She's only 2 and 4 mos.
>
>Just a comment -- why don't you instruct her on pulling her pants down
>and up?  Get very loose-fitting training pants and loose-fitting
>sweatpants.  Show her where to put her hands.  Manually guide her
>in pulling her pants up and down.  When she starts to get the hang of
>it, move to coaching her -- "Reach in the back and pull up on the
>elastic".  Teach her to ask for help when she gets frustrated (don't
>just move in and help her -- let her struggle, then ask at her own pace).
>She should be just fine.  We started doing this with Anna
>when we started to toilet train her, and now she not only pulls her
>pants up and down, she almost always wants to undress and dress herself.
>I have made her fall wardrobe such that all of the clothes are easy to
>put on, and she *loves* it.  And she will be 2 in December (brag, brag).

But what if the child doesn't WANT to try to learn to dress themselves?
We started this (encouraging Brad to pull his pants up and down, and
showing him how) this summer, figuring this was the first step towards
potty training.  When he could handle his pants himself, then whenever
he decided he wanted to toilet train, he could.  But he just isn't interested
in doing it himself.  I'll put his feet through the legs, then ask if
he wants to pull them up himself. His response is "MOMMY do it."  His
friend Emily just learned to put on her coat herself, by laying it on
the floor and flipping it over her head.  I asked Brad if he wanted
to learn that, and he said no.  I tried showing him, and he still wasn't
interested. (Both of them are 2 years 3 months).

I guess I'm lucky that he's never shown any interest in undressing himself
either - I read lots of stories from you all about finding kids naked
and wet in their cribs in the morning!

Diane Segelhorst
dsegelho@oasys.dt.navy.mil
Mom to Brad, 2 1/4 years, and Carrie, 4.5 months
From: tigger@satyr.Sylvan.COM (Grace Sylvan)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: 20/20 and Spanking
Date: 7 Nov 92 08:35:20 GMT
	<LOWRY.92Nov4105350@rotor.watson.ibm.com> <25819@optima.cs.arizona.edu>
Organization: Sylvan Associates


    >Disciplining a child for something they did can send a number of
    >messages, among them:
    >
    >  - What I did was wrong, and I shouldn't ever do it again.
    >  - What I did made Daddy or Mommy so mad they spanked me, so I
    >    shouldn't ever get caught doing it again.

   I forgot to mention that from the earliest age possible I would
   take steps to ensure the child THINKS that it's impossible to do
   it without getting caught.  I'm not to that point yet, so don't
   know offhand how I'll accomplish this.  I can say, however, that
   as a child I was certain that my mother knew everything I did.

Now, I think this is one of the most stupid ideas I've heard of.
Surely the child will sometime do something wrong and not get caught
and learn the truth (that it's not impossible). And that method of
discipline is centered outside of the child, instead of being set in
self-discipline and self-responsibility.

   Another thing I might do that sounds cruel to anti-spankers is to
   scold, tell him he's going to get spanked, and make him wait for
   it (and think about it during the wait).  This is how my parents
   connected the offense to the punishment, and I can attest to its
   effectiveness.

In the real world (the one they are going to grow up into, and be
adults in) no one is going to punish them for wrongdoings by spanking
them, sending them to bed w/o supper, sending them to their rooms, or
the like. In the real world, there are simply consequences to actions
- sure if you don't do your work, you might find yourself unemployeed,
but if you hurt someone they will not want to be (play) with you
anymore. Rarely will someone lecture them for a wrongdoing to educate
them, they'll need to figure out the consequences for themselves. If
they break something, they will have to handle replacing, fixing it,
or doing without. There won't be someone lurking around the corner to
'catch' them in 'wrongdoings', they'll just need to live with what
happens due to their poor choices or mistakes.


-- 

Tigger (Grace Sylvan)                Mom of Katherine Yelena, 8/8/89,
tigger@satyr.sylvan.com              Corey 1/31/91; we loved him so,
                                     Robin Gregory born 2/28/92

 "It seems to me that our large goal is to find the ways to help our
 children become humane and strong."
 
              - Dr Haim Ginott quoted by Adele Faber & Elaine Mazlish
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: mhn@cs.brown.edu (Marian H. Nodine)
Subject: Re: 20/20 and Spanking
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 15:39:51 GMT

In article <1d8sn4INN9kc@network.ucsd.edu> dlin@weber.ucsd.edu (Diane Lin) writes:
>Another of the old "ends justifies the means" logic at work.  Did it
>ever occur to you that matches and knives and other dangerous
>objects should not be within a child's access?  That's what
>childproofing is all about, you know.  As a parent (just for the
>heck of it, David, are you a parent?) one of my jobs is to create a
>safe environment for my child, and included in that is removing
>unsafe items from his reach.

I'm not sure that childproofing is the be-all and end-all here.  First,
I have an almost-5, very tall kid who can reach almost anything.  Second,
I have a 23-month-old monkey who *loves* to imitate her big brother.

Consider the scene -- mom is cooking dinner.  I have just chopped up some
vegetables, and placed the knife (I thought) safely in the middle of the
counter.  I then add the vegetables to the casserole, mix, and want to
place it in the oven.  So I encourage the 23-month-old, who is clinging
to my legs, to please go into the hall while I open the hot oven. 
Meanwhile, behind my back, my son has dragged his "watching chair"
over a tiny bit, gotten hold of the sharp knife, and is starting to 
chop whatever with it (he's a very curious kid).  Now, how does
childproofing help here?

Scene 2 -- mom is cooking dinner.  I have decided that maybe the kids
should play in the (childproofed) living room while I cook.  My husband
has inadvertently left a permanent marker on the mantle.  In the two
minutes or so between times that I check up on them, my 23-month-old
has climbed onto the table, grabbed the permanent marker (she loves
to scribble) and scribbled all over herself, including in her mouth
(eeek!  are these things poisonous?).

My point here is that, I can work hard at childproofing to some reasonable
level, but I am a finite person, and cannot foresee everything.  I also
do not want to be childproofing forever, so some instruction is needed
including, I think, occasionally letting the child take the consequences
of the action.  (Where here "consequences" do not necessarily mean
spanking)

-- Misty
From: tigger@satyr.Sylvan.COM (Grace Sylvan)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: 20/20 and Spanking
Date: 8 Nov 92 10:41:37 GMT
	<1992Nov3.225029.29087@oakhill.sps.mot.com>
	<1d7de9INNdja@network.ucsd.edu> <7495@tekig7.PEN.TEK.COM>
Organization: Sylvan Associates

I would add that perhaps it's that you're being successful - that the
child is becoming more independant of the parent.

When the child is an infant, they don't intentionally defy their
parents, and even can go through separation anxieties. There is no
separation between child and parent.

When those terrific twos hit, the child is starting to define
themselves as separate (herein is where much of the stress of
parenting starts!). They make little separations, but are still very
dependant on the parent and the distinction is still blurry.

And my three year old, who now thinks she's so big (because she can
remember being unable to do things that she can now) is doing more of
the same. She wants to control her surroundings, and even the other
people in it. So the boundaries are still a bit blurry for her.

The older the child gets, the more separate they become, the less the
parent can force things. Then self-discipline, respect, and lots of
cooperation and trust are necessary for smooth sailing, the beginnings
of which need to be sown during the previous years.
-- 

Tigger (Grace Sylvan)                Mom of Katherine Yelena, 8/8/89,
tigger@satyr.sylvan.com              Corey 1/31/91; we loved him so,
                                     Robin Gregory born 2/28/92

 "It seems to me that our large goal is to find the ways to help our
 children become humane and strong."
 
              - Dr Haim Ginott quoted by Adele Faber & Elaine Mazlish
From: tigger@satyr.Sylvan.COM (Grace Sylvan)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: cute things they do (8 mo)
Date: 5 Nov 92 06:43:46 GMT
Distribution: misc
Organization: Sylvan Associates

Well, we were out eating at Fresh Choice (a salad bar, soup, pasta,
muffin, etc restaurant). We still limit Robin's choices - we mashed up
a bunch of peas for him, have been giving him some noodles and
crackers (but not much, we're going easy on wheat), and give him a
slice of melon to suck on and manipulate. We had a leisurely meal
(almost 1.5 hours) and Robin was indeed getting tired of being in the
high chair.

He was still hanging out, though, when the rest of the family decided
to enjoy frozen yogurt cones. Well, he watched me like a hawk, and
started getting very agitated. I tried to pretend to give him a piece
off my cone and give him a tiny cracker instead, but he wasn't
satisfied. I had the feeling he wanted a cone, and he started getting
very adament - yelling (not crying).

So (against my normal nutritional rules for babies) I got up and
brought back an empty cone for him. He continued to yell and me
angrily until he realized I was giving it to him. He instantly quieted
down and happily chewed on his cone while we ate ours.

(Gaak, I fed him organic carrots and organic oatmeal for breakfast,
then he eats about half an ice cream cone at the end of his lunch)
-- 

Tigger (Grace Sylvan)                Mom of Katherine Yelena, 8/8/89,
tigger@satyr.sylvan.com              Corey 1/31/91; we loved him so,
                                     Robin Gregory born 2/28/92

 "It seems to me that our large goal is to find the ways to help our
 children become humane and strong."
 
              - Dr Haim Ginott quoted by Adele Faber & Elaine Mazlish
From: dlin@weber.ucsd.edu (Diane Lin)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: 20/20 and Spanking
Date: 10 Nov 1992 02:05:26 GMT
Organization: University of California, San Diego
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: weber.ucsd.edu
Summary: evidence, please?

In article <24130@alice.att.com> jj@alice.UUCP (jj, curmudgeon and all-around grouch) writes:
>In article <1djgfrINNlo5@network.ucsd.edu> dlin@weber.ucsd.edu (Diane Lin) writes:
>>	Never treat a child with disrespect.
>
>What about adults?  What about all the adults you've condemned
>and consigned to the ranks of abusers?  

Please show me in any of my previous articles where I've condemned
and consigned spankers to the ranks of abusers.  Until you can do
that, please don't put words in my mouth.  Thank you.  

[...]
>Why do you disrespect ALL of these adults.

>Frankly, I think you shown that that you
>think that adults do not deserve the courtesies and respect
>due human beings.
>
Again, I would be very appreciative if *anyone* could show me
previous articles in which I show disrespect to adults in general.

Finally, precisely what ad hominem arguments have I made?  I would
like to at least know what I'm being being accused of here!
-- 
Diane C. Lin			"Live now; make *now* always the
dlin@weber.ucsd.edu	         most precious time.  Now will 
(Dylan's mom, 23 months)	 never come again." (ST:TNG)
From: alanj@endeavor18.tek.com (Alan Jeddeloh)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: Mom worried over poop
Date: 13 Nov 92 00:47:58 GMT
Article-I.D.: shaman.2146
Reply-To: Alan.Jeddeloh@tek.com
Distribution: usa
Organization: Tektronix, Inc.

I just wnated to thank everybody for the responses.  The consensus was
(1) tummy bug
(2) teething

The poops have returned to normal (more-or-less), and Mom is sleeping again.


--
    Alan Jeddeloh      W:(503) 685-2991  H:(503) 292-9740
    Tektronix, Inc.; D/S 60-850; PO Box 1000; Wilsonville, OR 97070
    Alan.Jeddeloh@tek.com          <This space for rent.>
    You can put the children to bed, but you can't make them sleep!
From: tigger@satyr.Sylvan.COM (Grace Sylvan)
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Subject: Re: 20/20 and Spanking
Date: 7 Nov 92 18:17:49 GMT
	<1992Nov3.191351.27680@das.harvard.edu> <25770@optima.cs.arizona.edu>
	<1992Nov4.221143.17368@aio.jsc.nasa.gov>
	<1d9s2fINNp09@matt.ksu.ksu.edu>
Distribution: usa
Organization: Sylvan Associates

In article <1d9s2fINNp09@matt.ksu.ksu.edu> bets@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (Beth Schwindt) writes:

   I have a question for everyone here, having heard all of the arguments
   going both directions.

   Did anyone whose parents didn't spank ever wish they did, rather than
   the punishment they actually received?

   Many times, my father would scream and yell at me for a long time.
   Gradually, I learned to tune him out.  He would have been much more
   effective in disciplining me if he *had* spanked, instead .....

My parents didn't spank me when I was older. Instead they did a boring
lecture, or screamed. Neither of them was effective either.

I'd propose that your father would have seriously abused you if he'd
hit you (sounds like he was quite out of control), so you're lucky he
chose not to hit. And that you'd have learned to resent him and block
the pain and spanking, too. (This from a friend who WAS regularly
spanked and then paddled as she got older, whose mom once BROKE a
wooden paddle across her butt)

Your father was out of control (which is part of why his communication
wasn't effective), he was probably being repetitious, he wasn't really
communication WITH you, he was venting AT you. It's no wonder you
learned to shut him out.

Emotional violence is no better than physical.

-- 

Tigger (Grace Sylvan)                Mom of Katherine Yelena, 8/8/89,
tigger@satyr.sylvan.com              Corey 1/31/91; we loved him so,
                                     Robin Gregory born 2/28/92

 "It seems to me that our large goal is to find the ways to help our
 children become humane and strong."
 
              - Dr Haim Ginott quoted by Adele Faber & Elaine Mazlish
Newsgroups: misc.kids
From: choi@wk59.nas.nasa.gov (Diana Choi)
Subject: Re: Child Security and Childcare (was Re: 20/20 and Spanking)
Organization: NAS Program, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 17:58:50 GMT

(Andrea Von Ahnen) writes:
>
>Mark Wuest wrote about a child at his church's childcare who was
>very upset about being left with a room full of strangers while
>his aunt and/or parents attended church services.  He felt that
>because of the child's strong reaction (screaming, crying) to 
>being left, there might be something wrong with his homelife.
>   
>Strong attachment to parents is a *good* thing.  Preferring to
>be with parents rather than people a child doesn't know is
>normal.  I'd be more concerned about a small child who has no
>qualms about being left in childcare for the first few times,
>than about child who is obviously bonded with his parents.  

A rather old study by Ainsworth(1979) describes 3 types of behaviors 
exhibited by children:  

   Group A. Rarely cry at separation.  When reunited avoid their mothers.
   Group B. Cry at separation but recover.  When reunited seek their mothers.
   Group C. Cry excessively at separation.  When reunited are ambivalent,
	    seeking and then avoiding contact.

The majority, Group B, (70%)  are labeled as "securely attached", whereas the 
other two are considered behaviorly abnormal, exhibiting signs of anxiety
and insecureattachment. Their reactions were attributed to poor response 
from their mothers.

"Infant-Mother Attachment", Ainsworth, Mary D. S.  "American Psychologist" 34
(1979):932-37 

(Hopefully, this is my last reference to these child-psychology studies).

diana
Organization: Alumni Relations, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Date: Mon,  9 Nov 1992 16:23:02 -0500 
From: Dana Lindsay Rinehart <dr18+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Cute things they say 2.8 year old

>Yesterday after considerable tugging and struggling I got
>a tuttleneck over my son's head.  After I had it tucked
>into his pants he looked at me and said, "When I get big
>I am going to do that to you."  I don't know why manu-
>facturers make such small openings in kid's shirts!!
> 
>Cathryn W. Chiesa

My brother used to cry when we brought out turtlenecks.  He'd say, "No,
I don't want to wear that choker shirt!"