From: pj04216@austin.lockheed.com (pj04216)
Newsgroups: comp.text.frame
Subject: Re: Frame on the Mac
Date: 14 Oct 92 23:05:36 GMT
Article-I.D.: shrike.1264
Organization: "Lockheed Austin Division, 6800 Burleson Rd, Austin, TX 78744

This is a summary of the responses that I received to the following
query:

> I'm considering getting Framemaker for my Mac.  I've used it on Sun and
> HP workstations.  The big attraction for me is its equation editing
> capabilities.  I have a number of questions, though.  How is FM on the Mac?
> Have compromises been made?  Will it be compatible with my Radius Pivot/LE
> monitor?  Is there some way to get its postscript output to print to a
> non-postscript printer?

I would like to thank the following individuals for taking the time to
provide me with responses:

   Michael Hardy, B.G. Mahesh, Steve Harding, Marc Raths, Gene Sady,
   Erik Ableson, Jonathan Ganz, Timothy Bienz, Alan Koch, David
   Levine, Hank Walker, Eric Westreich, Paul Sander, Charles Allen,
   Ray Zimmerman, Steve Dieringer, and Phil Sherwood.

I will provide the gist of the responses in the next few paragraphs.
However, many useful tidbits and caveats were provided also.  So, I've
included the detailed replies at the end of this message.

The responses indicate that, for the most part, Framemaker works just
fine on a Mac as long as the machine is sufficiently powerful.  Some
of the systems mentioned are:
   o Mac IIfx with 5MB
   o Mac IIx with 4MB memory and a decent Hard Drive
   o Mac IIcx
   o Mac IIsi or better (e.g. IIcx, IIci), at least a 13" color
     monitor, and >= 5MB memory, probably 8MB with System 7.  A Mac II
     with 4MB is kind of sluggish.
   o Mac IIci

Few compromises appear to have been made other than platform specific
ones (e.g., the Mac only has one mouse button) and those required by
Mac interface guidelines.

I was under the impression that I would only be able to get Framemaker
hardcopy from a postscript printer.  This is not true; Framemaker will
print to non-postscript printers (e.g., HP DeskWriter & Imagewriter
II).

I'm still in somewhat the dark ;-) wrt my monitor (8.5"x11" color
Radius Pivot/LE).  It has the capability to be rotated between
portrait and landscape modes while the system is running --- the
screen blanks for a second or two and then all the windows come back
up in the new orientation.  This requires special software that can
(and does, in some cases) have adverse interactions with running
applications (so far I like the monitor, though, and it has behaved
very well for me).  Two repondents pointed out that Frame offers a
demo version that may help determine whether there are any
incompatibilities with the monitor.

Finally, I've been told by Frame that they are offering a discount on
Mac Framemaker this month.  If you send them a copy of the cover of
your current word processor's manual, you can buy Mac Framemaker for
$395.

What follows are the individual replies that I received.  I should
note that I have "compressed" them somewhat.

Al Reich

  +-----------------------------------------------+
  |  Alfred J. Reich, Ph.D.                       |
  |  Knowledge-Based Systems, Org T210, Bldg 310  |
  |  Lockheed - Austin Division                   |
  |  P.O. Box 17100                               |
  |  Austin, TX 78760-7100                        |
  +-----------------------------------------------+
  |     Phone: (512) 386-4178                     |
  |       FAX: (512) 386-1997                     |
  |  Internet: reich@austin.lockheed.com          |
  +-----------------------------------------------+

===========================================================================
			  DETAILED RESPONSES
===========================================================================
From: mhardy@acorn.co.uk (Michael Hardy)
      Technical Publications, Acorn Computers Ltd, Cambridge, England

>Have compromises been made?

None so far as I'm aware, but I'd take the word of someone with experience
over mine (what I say's just hearsay).

>Is there some way to get its postscript output to print to a
>non-postscript printer?

We have done this on Suns by using the Colourjet driver in GhostScript (a PD
PostScript interpreter) to convert PostScript to the codes needed for this
printer. UNIX's provision of printcap files, input filters for printers, and
pipes made this relatively easy. I don't know if you can do similar things
on the Mac, though. You'd certainly need a C compiler to investigate the
route I've outlined above.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: harding@nas.nasa.gov (Steve Harding)
      NASA/Ames Research Center

>      ... Is there some way to get its postscript output to print to a
>non-postscript printer?

1.	Just the same as any other platform.  Main diff I have found is that
	MacFrame does not have kbmaps (altho, I understand their are 3rd
	party stuff available).
2.	Never used the equation stuff, so I can't answer that.  I do know
	that Frame takes great pains to keep the various platforms as
	identical as possible.
3.	It should be compatible with any Mac monitor.
4.	I don't think there is any way to get ps to print to a non-ps
	printer.  I have a utility for my PC that handles text fairly well
	but has difficulties with any graphics.

BTW...I have both PCWin and Mac versions at home and a SPARCstation2 at
work.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Timothy Bienz <BIENZ@SLACVM.SLAC.Stanford.EDU>
      Dept. of Physics and Astronomy, the University of Iowa

I've been using Frame on the Mac for 2 1/2 years. I've used it to write my
thesis (high energy physics) and a few papers. Although I primarily work
on the Mac, I've used Frame briefly on NeXT and Silicon Graphics workstations.
As far as I can tell, there is no difference in the functions provided by
Frame on the various platforms. The only thing that will not be available
on the Mac are the resources files that X users sometimes customize Frame
with. I would definitely recommed the fastest mac you can find and lots of
memory, especially if you want to work with large, complex documents. I've
mainly used a Mac IIfx with 5MB of memory allocated to Frame. I've been
happy with that configuration. One thing to be careful of; if you plan
on transporting files between various platforms, not all the characters
map properly. Letters and numbers  are fine, but special characters sometimes
show up differently on different platforms. I don't know about compatibility
with your monitor, or printing to a non-PostScript printer.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Alan Koch <ask@SEI.CMU.EDU>
      Software Engineering Institute, Carnegie Mellon University

Frame is GREAT on a Mac, as long as the Mac is powerful enough (at least a Mac
IIx with 4MB memory and a decent Hard Drive.)  No compromises have been made.
The only features that are missing are related to platform restrictions (no
maker menu because there is no right mouse button) or platform niceties (no
capture because of the many utilities available on the Mac to do that.)

In some ways, the Mac version is better (Color processing and interface with
MS Word.)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: David Levine <davidl@SSD.intel.com>
      Intel Supercomputer Systems Division

FrameMaker on the Mac is a no-compromise implementation of FrameMaker.
It has everything that the Sun version has, including recognizing all
the Sun control keys and escape sequences (META-keys are supported
where they don't conflict with standard Mac keys).  I find FrameMaker
on a Mac IIcx to be somewhat slower than a SparcStation IPC, but it's
only really noticeable when working on very complicated graphics and
tables.

I don't know about the Pivot/LE, but I use it with a Radius Full Page
Display and it works fine.  However, you'll wish you had a two-page
display...  FrameMaker's a real screen hog and a full-page display is
the MINIMUM usable configuration.  It also demands 7MB of disk space
and is happiest with 4MB or more of memory.

I use FrameMaker with a non-PostScript printer (HP DeskWriter) and it
works just fine for most purposes.  However, there are some known bugs
(rotated text prints as a bitmap, certain patterns print at 72dpi
rather than 300dpi, thumbnails don't work too well).  Also, imported
EPS graphics won't print on a non-PostScript printer.  But when I have
problems printing, I just take the file to work and print it on the
laser printer there... the file formats are 100% identical (except for
some imported graphics).

If you like FrameMaker on UNIX, you'll like it on the Mac.  Go for it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Hank Walker <dmw@taurus.ece.cmu.edu>

FM on Mac is essentially the same as FM on other platforms, with minor
variations so that window management conforms to the standard style of the
platform, and to deal with the smaller window size of the typical Mac.  If
you can use the Mac, and you can use FM, you can use FM on the Mac.  Cut and
paste to/from other applications works pretty good, as does the Word to FM
filter.  The one thing that has bitten me is that on ULTRIX, FM 3.0 brings
in xwd files as B&W, while FM 3.0 on the Mac preserves the color, and it
takes forever to print on a LaserWriter due to the color to B&W half-toning.
Our workstations are also connected to an HP LaserJet IIIsi, which is also
much faster.  So for complex figures on the Mac, I'll use the fmcolor
utility to convert to B&W before printing.  This usually only happens when
I'm using FM to transfer an xwd file to PowerPoint.

Don't know about non-PostScript printing.  This is a print driver issue, not
a FM issue probably.  Besides, the only good printer is a PostScript
printer.

You need to have a Mac IIsi or better (e.g. IIcx, IIci), at least a 13"
color monitor, and >= 5MB memory, probably 8MB with System 7.  A Mac II with
4MB is kind of sluggish.  Otherwise the Mac will be wheezing.  A bigger
screen is definitely desirable.  It works fine on the large Apple display,
and other types shouldn't be a problem since on FM uses the Mac QuickDraw
routines.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mahesh@evb.com (B.G. Mahesh)
      SETT Inc.

We have it them on our Macs. Too slow. Otherwise I guess it 
has the same capabilities as Sun.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: westreic@guam.oc.nps.navy.mil (Eric Westreich)

I use framemaker on the Mac, the SUN and on SGI indigos. The versions
are nearly identical. The MAC version is the the only one that will
accept postscript...you get a shaded box and the program tells you
that you it will print but not display the graphic. Obviously, this
does not transfer to the other versions.

Other than that, the framemaker interchange format files transfer
between platforms...which I routinely do.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: paul@hal.com (Paul Sander)
      HaL Computer Systems, Inc., Campbell, CA, USA

I use Frame on a Sun and on a Mac.  I have found no difference in the
features on the Mac version, though the dialogs look a bit different (more
in the Mac style).  Also, some of the accelerators are missing from a few
of the dialogs, but they're all available via menus.

Frame on the Mac also prints on the Imagewriter II.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: allen@uthep2.ph.utexas.edu (Charles Allen)
      UTexas-Austin Physics

I've been using FrameMaker on the Mac just about since it came out.  The
interface follows the Mac interface guidelines quite well.  I've never used
FM on another platform, so I can't make comparisons in that regard.  Others
have stated that its capabilities are the same as others.

Not sure what you mean by "...get its postscript output to print to a
non-postscript printer...".  It can print to any printer in general (I use
it with a DeskWriter at home).  If you're referring to tagging a flow as
"Postscript code" and wanting *that* to print as Postscript, then I would
assume the only way would be to get a Postscript interpreter, such as
Freedom of Press.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Ray-Zimmerman@cornell.edu
      Electrical Engineering, Cornell University, Ithaca NY

I've been using Frame on a Mac IIci for over a year.  As far as I know it
is almost identical to the workstation versions.  The only difference I
know of (never having seen the Sun or HP versions) is that you can't
rotation of objects at arbitrary angles.  I don't see any reason why it
shouldn't be compatible with your monitor and I believe it should print to
any Mac printer.

My suggestion:  call up Frame and have them send you the demo version.  The
demo is exactly the same as the full version except you can't save (but it
comes with examples) and when printing it prints "D E M O" (or something)
in big letters over the normal page.  If you have any other specific
questions let me know.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Marc Raths <mr@bernina.ethz.ch>
      Swiss Federal Institute of Technology, Zurich, Switzerland

I've used FrameMaker on Suns and I use it on a Mac Powerbook. I have yet to 
find any differences (apart from platform limitations like no RPC on a Mac).
Even keyboard abrevviations work exactly the same way.

As for the printing: I think there are utilities for the Mac to print
Postscript on a non-postscript printer but I haven't used one.
(You don't need that to print on a Stylewriter for example, FrameMaker
on the Mac will happily use any Mac printer driver for Quickdraw graphics;
this works fine eg for sending Frame documents via a fax modem)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: gsady@mcd.intel.com (Gene Sady)

I've been using Frame on the MAC for a few months now. I've been a Sun
Frame user for a few years. The transition is a bit frustrating so far.
For instance in the MAC world the window that is on the top is the
"active" window, so when you call up a dialog box ( say the paragraph
formats ) and you want to go back to typing in the document window, you
need to click on the document to bring it to the top. Consequently the
dialog box moves to the back and you need to bring it to the top to use
it again. This can be quite frustrating if you have a lot of formating
to do. I don't know how this would be different on a larger monitor. I
have a E-machines T16-II. This may not be so bad if there are some key
board macros that can move open windows to the top and back again. I
have not looked into this yet.

The speed is reasonable, slower than my Sun of course. Still I don't
like to have to use the mouse so much, which is essential in the MAC
environment. 

I don't know about the Radius monitor or about printing to non-PS
printers. I have a TI MicroLaser which works quite well.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: ablesone@uuisis.isis.org (Erik Ableson)
      Ableson Consulting, Gatineau, PQ  Canada

The Mac version is a nice, stable implementation of Frame.  Minor 
differences in the interface due to ensuring compliance with the Macintosh 
Interface Guidelines.  Nothing really noticeable.

As for PostScript output to a non-PostScript printer is not a problem as 
long as you are not inserting EPS graphics into your documents. All graphic 
elements and text created in Frame (i.e. lines. boxes etc.) will print 
properly on a non-PostScript printer.  That's because Frame doesn't gee
the printing code, its handled by the OS.  Imported graphics are problematic 
and depend on their format and tha capabilities of the printer you're using.

There's no reason there should be incompatibilities with the Radius that I 
know of.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: ganz@vulcan.resumix.portal.com (Jonathan Ganz)

>How is FM on the Mac?

It's very good, very stable...rarely has any of the crash problems associated
with UNIX platforms.

>Have compromises been made?  

There is no capture fuction on the Mac version.  Most everything else
works the same.  You have to use a third party product to do screen
captures.

>Will it be compatible with my Radius Pivot/LE monitor?

Yes - you're using it on your Mac now I assume....

>Is there some way to get its postscript output to print to a non-postscript 
printer?

I use an HP DeskJet 500 without any problems. As long as the printer
is properly identified in the Chooser function, you shouldn't have
any trouble. 

I've been using Frame on the Mac for quite some time without any
problems.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: steved@essex.com (Steve Dieringer)
      or steved%bullwinkle.uucp@wupost.wustl.edu

I've used Frame on both Mac and NeXT - I assume Sun and HP  
performance is probably better than NeXT.  My only advice - make sure  
you have plenty of memory and a fast machine.  It was pretty slow  
when handling long docs on an '030 Mac - and frequently ran out of  
memory (I had 5 meg on one machine, 8 on the other).  The NeXT  
performance was much better...  

On the other hand, the Mac version was more stable than the NEXT  
version....
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: sherwood@mdd.comm.mot.com (Phil Sherwood)
      Motorola Mobile Data Division

The only thing that bugs me about Frame on a Mac (as opposed to Frame
on a Sun) is that you don't have the macro capability. Frame/Mac has a
few other little inelegances that are sort of stupid (having to set up
individual files from the Sun file to get pagination by section, for
example), but I can live with them in light of its otherwise good
functionality and interface.

In our shop here we have no trouble with Frame and a Radius Pivot
monitor (I dunno if it's an LE or what -- but it is color). We did,
though, have all sorts of trouble when trying to install System 7.
Big-time incompatibility with the video board, and Radius people were
sort of assholes about supporting their damn board. But that's a
Radius issue, not a Frame issue.

In sum, I think Frame/Mac is killer -- the best non-Interleaf doc
creation and management package I've used.
==================================EOF======================================
Newsgroups: comp.text.frame