From: oueichek@ngulu (Ibaa Oueichek)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: Difference ,  No Difference
Date: 14 Aug 92 10:32:46 GMT
Distribution: soc.culture.arabic
Organization: IMAG, University of Grenoble, France
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

khater@sun14.vlsi.uwaterloo.ca (Issam Abu-Khater) writes:
: 
: May be you are write that we believe in the all you have mentioned, but 
: some "firaq" like Shia they add to this believe, they add the "Isma" or
: infallability of Imam, they reject the Boukhary and Muslim, and they claim
: they have the full Quran, and they accuse the Sahabah of betraying the 
: message and disobeying the prophet.

  Let Shia (and others) believe in what they want. WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM ?.
: 
: And what common gaols between Nationalists and Islamists you are talking
: about? Could you inlighten us.

  Are you THAT dumb ?.
: 
: >
: >From this introduction we Muslims should deal with our 
: >differences in a better way to what we are doing now. 
: >Many people think the differences between THE MUSLIM AND 
: >ARABIC STATES AND GOVERNMENTS are because of ISLAM and not 
: >as many muslims see it because of LACK OF ISLAM.
: >
: 
: What this has to do with our differences, I got confused
: and why ARABIC states, what about Persian state, and
: others, do they have plenty of Islam?

  I really don't care if they have "plenty" or "not enough" or anything else
(Others do care, it's their choice, and it can't be a bad choice if they keep
in their mind the right of dignity and equality for EVERYONE).
Is it difficult for yoyos like you to understand that in the Arabic world
there are many different sects and groups that it's almost impossible to
anyone of them to claim the right of "suprimacy" over others. And if we ARE in
a mess now, it's exactly because of the suprimacist attitude of some groups
for a long period of time (i'll not call names because it's irrevelant). Or
is suprimacy wrong when practiced by others but right when YOU practice it ?
Just because your are "rightous", huh ?.
: 
: >There are many reasons why we tend to resolve to violence
: >to solve our differences like what happened recently in
: >Palestine between HAMAS and PLO. Firstly this a characteristic
: >of the 3rd World like for example between the blacks of
: >South Africa but the very different groups in the Advanced
: >World don't resolve to violence to solve their differences.
: >
: 
: You are wrong in this analogy, what happened bet. Hamas and the PLO is
: because the nationalists want to demonstarte that they have the upper
: hand so they can enforce their position at peace conference as the legitamate
: representative of the Palestinian people. So to blame all is harmful too.

  GRIN, at least among the Palestinian diaspora, Hamas has almost NO
representation. I've lived among Palestinians for almost a year, and ALL those 
i knew (quite a plenty) were PLO supporters. Anyway, i was under the impression
that for HAMAS, they don't even want to hear about the peace conference.

: 
: >Reasons due to civilizational level for organizations
: >and individuals. Closed on themselves, satisfied by what
: >they have and don't want to know what others might have.
: >
: >Reasons due to the quality of education:  based on
: >DIALOGUE and listening to others and associating them
: >in reaching the result, and respect for the right of others
: >for existence and dignity. This type of education not that
: >of IBLISS :"I AM BETTER THAN HIM" or that of FIR'AOUN 
: >"I WILL NOT SHOW YOU (A WAY) EXCEPT WHAT I SEE, AND WON'T 
: >GUIDE YOU EXCEPT TO THE GUIDED PATH".
: >
: 
: Cheap talk, Application is what we need.

  It's not Cheap talk, it's very well stated (even if it's rather theoric, but
it's not "cheap").
  What kind of Application ?. Maybe a nice "sect cleaning" in the Arab world
will make you quite happy, or should we create a state populated only of
"Good Muslim sunnits" so you can live without seeing those "filthy shiaa's"
and "westernized Chrsitians" nor "ugly Jews". Have a life man, how old are
you, kiddy ?. 
: 
: >
: >If we believe that "Truth" is a "public" property and that
: >we might be wrong and others might be right, and whoever gives
: >us better than what we have we accept it and thank him/her 
: >for it, then we might be able to reduce differences and
: >increase cooperation.
: 
: This is a big JUMP, first you are talking about how to solve differences in
: a civilized manner then you Jump to tell me that in order to reduce 
: differences accept the other argument because it might be right. No way,
: if I am sure it is wrong I will reject it and if I am sure it is right
: I will accept it. Ther is no room to might, maybe, or perhaps.

  Are you SO sure of yourself that you can assert such a bigoted answer ?. 
DIFFERRENCES EXISTS EVERYWHERE, by NO MEAN you can claim the monopole of truth.
And don't think that the you have the right to insult people (like you have 
already done in your post about taqyya) in their FAITH.
: 
: > Malek.
: > 
: > "We cooperate in what we agree on, and forgive each other for that
: >  in which we disagree." Hassan El Banna.
: 
: Cooperation here is among the same group with diferences in matters of FIQH
: or methodology, not among different groups with different "Aqeedah" whether 
: nationalism, shiaism, capitalism, all isms, is not meant here.

  What you are saying here is VERY dangerous, let me ask you a direct question
and answer me with YES or NO (NO FUZZY ANSWER). Will you accept to work with
other people (Shiaas, Christians, Jews, nationalists,..etc) for the prosperity
of your country or not ?. Can you accept the idea that those people DO LOVE
THEIR COUNTRY and work for every single citizen in it regardless their religion
or ethnic origins ?. Can you understand that YOU DON'T OWN THE WORLD ?.
  Last year i was at the hospital, and i heard a doctor (graduated from the US)
telling another one: "It s*cks, there are too much crosses in this hospital",
can you understand the feeling that a Christian (like me) may have when he
hears such a bigotry ?.

  If you don't, then i'm really very sorry for you, but please, spare us your
"i'm the best, you are just infidels" stuff.
 
  Religion is for G-D, but the country is for everyone.
: Issam.

--
Sham(u) ya tha (s)seif(u) lam yaghib(i) | Ibaa Oueichek. oueichek@imag.imag.fr
    Ya jamal(al) majd(i) fi(l) kutub(i) | LABORATOIRE 	BULL-IMAG
Kablak(i) (t)tareekh(u) fi thulmaten    | Grenoble. 
    Baadak(i) staula ala (sh)shuhub(i)  |