HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: earlw@Apple.COM (Earl Wallace)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: for your reading enjoyment pt2
Date: 28 Jul 92 16:49:59 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: ha-ha-ha, right...

In article <36518@uflorida.cis.ufl.edu> msn@reef.cis.ufl.edu (Mike 'HK G3ZF Full-Auto' Newsome) writes:
>For ya'lls reading pleasure...
>
>	ALLIGATOR Tue. 07-21-92 page 4.
>
>	TAMPA - Police say they're worried about armed showdowns
>	becoming too common in once quiet Tampa as robbery victims
>	begin to retaliate.  Five times in less than three weeks
>	someone has drawn a gun and fired at an accoused bandit.
>	So far, one suspect has been killed and two wounded.  "We
>	absolutely must caution our citizens to think about their
>	actions," said Tampa Deputy Police Chief Curtis Lane. "What
>	we can't afford is to get caught up in a Wild West mentality."
>...

That "Wild West mentality" phrase means to me that people were free.   Along
with that freedom, came responsibility.  For example, they had the
responsibility and authority for their own protection.  Today, we still have
the responsibility, but no authority.  We are told that it's best for society
if we individuals just "take it" when the chips are down.  Women are told
to "take" rape and beatings, men are told just to "take" an attack on their
home, and so on.  The "society" takes a dim view of any individual trying
to stop an assault.  You'll notice that criminals have far more rights than
victims for example.

Bring back the "Wild West", I would rather be free than be a slave of society.
From: reid@metis.tti.com (Reid Kneeland)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Random gun control
Date: 22 Jul 92 16:49:51 GMT
Organization: Transaction Technology Inc.

In article <1992Jul20.234512.4775@trl.oz.au> djewell@rhea.trl.OZ.AU (David Jewell - Radio and Satellite Networks) writes:
>
>Here in the Australian State of Victoria we have random breath testing for
>car drivers. The police set up a road block and breath test drivers for a
>...

Giving police yet another license to harass citizens who are doing
nothing wrong is not something I'd vote for.

>The result now, some years later, is a change
>in attitude towards drink diving and a much reduced road toll. A great community
>and personal benefit in road safety at the cost of a few minutes hassle perhaps
>a couple of times a year.

In previous post, I suggested that a broad definition of "socialism"
might be "subordinating the rights of the individual to the greater
common good".  Short of anarchy, some of this is unavoidable in any
society, but in a society that is truly dedicated to individual
freedom, it is considered an occasionally necessary evil, and kept to a
minimum.  In a socialist state, it is standard operating procedure.
This is a good example.  Again, it's not something I would vote for.

>Most t.p.g. posters would like to see the criminal element in society disarmed,
>so how would "random gun checks" be received in US states?

What are you proposing?  Random house searches?  Random frisking on the
street?  This is the kind of society you'd like to live in?

Is this supposed to be a joke?

>I know some would
>say this infringes some right but if you are a law-abiding citizen with a duly
>registered firearm then surely this hassle would be a small price to pay to
>disarm criminals.

There is one price I'm willing to pay to disarm criminals- taxes to build
new prisons to hold them.  That works.  I don't see how spot-checks for
guns is going to disarm very many criminals; it is, however, guaranteed to
place an undeserved burden on the law-abiding.  Hmmmm, sounds familiar.

>This would also make GUN CONTROL for law abiding citizens
>unnecessary.

No need, it's already unnecessary.  Thanks anyway.

=====================================================================
Reid Kneeland
reid@ttidca.tti.com  (that's MISTER reid@ttidca.tti.com to you!)
{philabs,psivax,pyramid,quad1,rdlvax,retix,rutgers}!ttidca!reid
Transaction Technology Inc., Santa Monica, CA, USA (310) 450-9111 x2499
The opinions expressed above do not necessarily etc etc...

Never trust a man who can count to 1,023 on his fingers.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: kossack@owlnet.rice.edu (Jordan Marc Kossack)
Subject: Re: Waiting periods and rights
Organization: Rice University
Distribution: na
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 01:30:29 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.125305.2020@tc.fluke.COM> ness@tc.fluke.COM (Jerry Ness) writes:
- I have never ever needed to buy a gun of any kind RIGHT NOW!!
- 
- A lengthy waiting period to do a background check or just for 
- a 'cooling off' period would certainly not infringe on my rights
- or the rights of anyone I know. 

	I have never had to have sex RIGHT NOW!!! 

	Therefore, by your reasoning, it would seem that it's ok for 
   the government to require you to fill out forms in order to legally 
   have sex, stating who your partner(s) will be and, specifically, 
   what sexual acts you intend to engage in.  Then you wait two weeks 
   before you can have sex.  Further, you have to repeat this process 
   every time you want to have sex, no matter how many times you've 
   had sex before and regardless of whether you're married.

	The politicians claim that the 14 day waiting period will 
   reduce rape and other forms of sexual assault, because the victim 
   and the police will have two weeks warning.  Further, this will 
   provide time for the police to perform a (sometimes) background 
   check to make sure you don't have AIDS or some other disease that 
   could be transmitted to your partner by coitus.  Does this sound 
   silly? Well, it's just a translation of firearm waiting periods 
   to sex. If this sexual waiting period is not justified by all of 
   the rapes, sexual assaults and AIDS victims it will prevent, how   
   can you justify a firearm waiting period?  


-- 
 Jordan M Kossack  |  "Don't dial 911;    
 kossack@rice.edu  |   Dial M1911A and let it ring seven times." 
  +1 713 240 2073  |         -- sybok@m37-332-1.MIT.EDU (The Terminator)
  
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: schabel@calspan.com (Dave Schabel)
Subject: Re: DEMOCRATS who are PRO-RKBA
Organization: Calspan Advanced Technology Center
Distribution: usa 
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 16:52:55 GMT

In article <n9bm=gh.pdh@netcom.com> pdh@netcom.com (Phil Howard ) writes:
>bob1@cos.com (Bob Blackshaw) writes:
>
>>Don't know, but presumably quite a few are. However, it isn't
>>only a question of Pro-choice, in 12 years the Republicans
>>have put this country in the toilet. Am I going to vote them
>>in again so Dan can pull the chain? Hell, NO.
>
>While the Republicans have been messing up the economy (IMHO) I would
>far sooner be voting for Bush/Quayle than for Clinton/Gore, but *NOT*
>because of the people or personalities, but rather because of the
>issues and platforms, and the "poison pill" in the Democratic platform.
>
>It would be so easy to remove that one offensive thing in the D platform.
>Actually I have several other areas of disagreement with the Dem's, but
>I'm sure very few of the members are in 100% agreement in reality.
>
>The point is that I really could support the whole Democratic platform
>if indeed they did remove the one poison pill, and support the Right of
>the PEOPLE (as it LITERALLY says in the Constitution; no interpretation
>needed) to Keep and Bear Arms.
>
>
>Phil ("would-be Democrat" who plans to vote Libertarian and Republican) H.
>-- 
>/***********************************************************************\
>| Phil Howard  ---  KA9WGN  ---  pdh@netcom.com   |   "The problem with |
>| depending on government is that you cannot depend on it" - Tony Brown |
>\***********************************************************************/

First off, remember that in our system of govt, CONGRESS spends the $,
and determines the tax rates, etc.  For any bill to be passed, a 50%
majority (of voting congressmen) must pass it in both houses.  The
pres. may VETO the bill, requiring Congress to try to overrride in
both houses.  So, simplistically, regarding the passage of spending
bills, taxation bills, etc.  the president is worth about 16% (2/3
majority vs simple majority) of congress.

But the most important point to consider is the fact that the Pres.
appoints SC Justices, and therefore has ALOT of say about the makeup
of the 3rd branch.  If we ever do get a RKBA case into the SC, who
would you rather have judging it, justices appointed by Clinton/Gore/
Kennedy, or by Bush?

				  Dave Schabel


Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: jca@crash.cts.com (John C. Archambeau)
Subject: Another Ooops wrong house!
Organization: CTS Network Services (crash, ctsnet), El Cajon, CA
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 09:58:06 GMT

Even Amerika's finest city can screw up and is run by screw ups.
San Diego Police did a drug raid on a wrong house a couple of days ago.
Not only was the wrong house searched, but a 12 year old girl as well
(completely) by a female officer.

I have respect for good members of law enforcement, but thoroughly
searching a 12 year old girl was uncalled for without damn good cause;
right or wrong house.

The family is now going through counseling and has already filed a large
civil suit for an undetermined amount against the city and San Diego PD.

Makes me feel better that I'm leaving this screwed up town, county and
state the end of August.  It sickens me to be here moreso now.  And to
think I at one time wanted to do my part and join San Diego PD or the 
Sheriff's department, but if they have child molesters as sworn officers, 
I don't know anymore, at least not for San Diego County.  I hope the 
internal affairs division crucifies and cremates that officer on the
stand.  And I hope CPS is going to vent some steam at SDPD and that 
officer as well.

My apologies if there are members of SD PD out there reading this that
are as uphauled about this as I am, but I just had to vent my spleen
about it.  What do you expect from a department that has Ruger's as
the standard issue carry weapon?  Blame it on Mayor Mo and the City
Council for lack of common sense.
--

     // JCA

 /*
 ** ARPA    : jadpc!thewall!jca@nosc.mil | 13 + 1 = 228... 
 ** INTERNET: jca@thewall.cts.com        |
 **           jca@thewall.uucp           |           SIG-Sauer P228...
 ** UUCP    : nosc!jadpc!thewall!jca     |
 */
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: grant@bluemoon.rn.com (Grant DeLorean)
Subject: Re: weapon identification
Organization: Blue Moon
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 15:09:04 GMT

fjohnson@kinks.rutgers.edu (Floyd Johnson) writes:

>Do any of you know the make and caliber of a weapon called the "Street
>Sweeper". All I can surmise is that it's an automatic
>"intermediate"-somewhere in size between a pistol and a rifle.

 It is a 12 guage shotgun with a rotary magazine (more like a revolver in
that each shell is in its own compartment in the magazine). They are
sold under the name "Striker-12" in the US.
-- 
\   Grant DeLorean  - IHMSA & NRA Life Member -  (grant@bluemoon.rn.com)   /

        Tested on dolphins and assorted helpless furry creatures

Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: veal@utkvm1.utk.edu (David L. Veal)
Subject: Re: Waiting periods and rights
Organization: University of Tennessee Division of Continuing Education
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 20:08:12 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.125305.2020@tc.fluke.COM> ness@tc.fluke.COM (Jerry Ness) writes:

>I just picked up on this waiting period thread so...

>I have never ever needed to buy a gun of any kind RIGHT NOW!!

     You may not, but others have.  Personal anecdotes make poor laws.

>A lengthy waiting period 

     How lengthy?  A month?  A year?  Twenty years?
 
     Why would a month be to much and seven days not?  
 
>to do a background check 

     Background checks do not require waiting periods.  A police officer in 
his cruiser can check you for outstanding warrants in seconds or minutes.  
The same applies to background checks.

>or just for 
>a 'cooling off' period would certainly not infringe on my rights
>or the rights of anyone I know. 

     A "cooling off" period doesn't do anyone, any good.  Not only must a 
law not violate anyone's rights (and I will assure you it violates *mine*) 
it must have some positive effect.
     But look at it this way:  You now know someone who's rights it will 
violate.

>Plan ahead.

     Nice idea.  Tell me, have you ever been in an automobile accident?  Why 
didn't you get out of the way before the car hit you?
 
     Why didn't you plan ahead?
 
     Has *everything* that *ever* happened to you been *your* fault for not 
planning ahead?
 
     I don't think you would claim to be omniscient.  Please don't assume 
the rest of us are, either.

>Washington state seems to be missing something in their 'waiting'
>period gun laws. A couple of years ago I decided to purchase a
>new black powder revolver. The revolver I chose is a Ruger Old
>Army .44 cal. There is NO waiting period for a black powder firearm
>in Washington.

     Generally, laws don't seem to consider black powder guns to be "real" 
guns.

>I bought the revolver, powder, bullets and primers
>and just took them home with me. This does not make any sense.
>Does the law think a revolver of this type can't hurt anybody??

     Imagine, Washington State actually trusted a citizen to exercise his 
rights without government intervention.
 
     Truly, this must cease.

>I think we need to get back on track and punish criminals not guns.
>If someone commits a crime, punish that person. If that person 
>used a  gun to commit the crime add 10 un-paroleable years to
>the sentence. 

     Nice idea, too. 

>'nuf ramblin'
>Jerry

===========================================================================
|David Veal  PA146008@utkvm1.utk.edu  University of Tennessee             |  
|                                     Division of Continuing Education    |
| Statistics are any data which can be twisted to support your posititon  | 
===========================================================================

Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: meyer@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Don Meyer)
Subject: Re: weapon identification
Organization: UIUC College of Agriculture
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 22:20:17 GMT

fjohnson@kinks.rutgers.edu (Floyd Johnson) writes:

>Do any of you know the make and caliber of a weapon called the "Street
>Sweeper". All I can surmise is that it's an automatic
>"intermediate"-somewhere in size between a pistol and a rifle.

It is a 12 gauge shotgun with a 12 round cylinder, in a revolving 
configuration.  It is more akin to a revolver than anything else.  And
it is *NOT* semi-automatic or fully-automatic as you may have surmised.

And in my opinion, it is cheaply made and does not appear to be reliable.
As a shooter, I would never buy one.  (Unless someone told me I couldn't,
of course... ;-)

Don
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
	Don Meyer			dlmeyer@uiuc.edu
	 Network Manager, UIUC College of Ag Microcomputer Facility

"Fiscal Responsibility + Personal Freedom = Libertarian"     Marrou/Lord in 92!

member: NRA, ISSC, IL Farm Bureau	"Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian!"
From: m15133@mwvm.mitre.org (Graham K. Glover)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: An invitation to explore the Libertarian Party
Date: 28 Jul 92 22:28:53 GMT
Organization: The MITRE Corporation

In article <1992Jul24.164004.19295@adobe.com>, pngai@adobe.com (Phil Ngai) 
writes:

>Please think about this scenario:
>
>You vote for Marrou. Bush loses and Clinton wins. The democrats then
>stack the Supreme Court with anti-gun judges.
>
>In this case, I AM voting for the lesser of two evils.

But it is still evil.

Bush holds to no principles.  He is the consumate negotiator.  His pledge 
of "no new taxes" that included a "luxury tax" had decimated the 
recreational boat manufacturing industry in this country, an industry 
which had been responsible for helping to offset our trade deficit.  I 
could certainly go on, but there are only so many bits in the world, and 
it wouldn't be environmentally sound of me to use them all in one posting.

Of course, Clinton himself is a real dynamo -- he's all ready to "TAX THE 
RICH" and other "enlightened" practices in which democrats engage.  Gore 
may even be more dangerous with his "global warming" agenda.

I am certainly concerned over these leadership choices wrt guns.  Yet I am 
also concerned with these leadership choices wrt various preferential 
policies, business regulations, fiat currency, property takings without 
due process, etc.

If Bush gets in, we'll get more of the same.  Clinton is more of the same, 
only faster, and as you suggest more gun control.  Take your choice of 
statist.

Marrou stands for liberty: individual rights and responsibilities.  Voting 
for Marrou is a direct (versus leveraged) vote.  Voting for Marrou is not 
voting for the lesser of any evils.

DISCLAIMER:  THESE ARE MY VIEWS, NOT MITRE'S.

----------------
Graham K. Glover
----------------
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: archer@utkux1.utk.edu (T. Archer)
Subject: Volknure - McClure
Organization: University of Tennessee Division of Continuing Education
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 13:21:53 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.045337.15476@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> dbetz@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Drew Betz) writes:

>In article <1992Jul29.043505.13207@convex.com> tighe@convex.com writes:
>>The NRA never lobbyed for it as far as I know. In fact, they did just the
>>opposite; they bargained it away in 1986 in order to get the Firearms
>>Owners Protection Act passed.

>Actually, I think the machine guns were lost on a last-minute addendum.
>(The argument then becomes "Why doesn't the NRA just add a nondiscretionary
>CCW addendum onto some legislation"?)

You are correct.  I have a transcript of the action at the time.  It was the 
middle of the night, and the amendment was added VERY quickly, in a voice 
vote, with RKBAers in the house were hollering "roll call."

>>As far as I know, the select-fire version of the AK-47, the AKM, or the
>>AK-74, has never been legally imported into the United States. A few have
>>been smuggled in, a few came in for evaluation by the US goverment. But as
>>far as I know none have been available legally to civilians.

>Shotgun News carries ads from machine gun dealers.  I know for a fact
>that full-auto AK-47s are available.  An old SGN I have lists them
>at about $2200.  The SGN is from last fall, so those are Fall 1991
>prices.

These were all legally in the country in '86.  There have been no more 
imported or manufactured since.
-=-=-
T. Archer  PA142548@utkvm1.utk.edu
University of Tennessee
"Vote Dempublican, it's easier than thinking." -- Unknown
-=-=-
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: archer@utkux1.utk.edu (T. Archer)
Subject: Guns Permits
Organization: University of Tennessee Division of Continuing Education
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 19:13:23 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.154624.21078@tss.com> burke@tss.com (Jim Burke) writes:

>In article <1992Jul29.034729.5729@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU>, andy@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (Andy Freeman) writes:

>|> We have experience with permit systems.  Some, like those for voting
>|> and guns, are abused by the officials given discretion.  If said
>|> experience was different, then there wouldn't be vehement objections.

>Yes, we do have experience with permit systems.  One permit system deals
>with the legal purchase and ownership of machine guns, aka automatic 
>weapons.  There are thousands of people who legally own machine guns in
>the U.S.  They have to apply for and receive a permit.  To my knowledge
>there has been one single case of one of these guns being used to commit
>a crime, and that was by a police officer who murdered his wife (presumably
>he would have used his service revolver if he hadn't had an automatic
>weapon).

>How many crimes do you suppose have been committed with illegal automatic
>weapons?  I would say that the permit system has worked pretty well in the
>case of automatic weapon ownership.  

Uh, uh.  I would say that the permit system made NO difference.  Those who 
commit crimes with Class-III's still get them, and use them.  That people 
who don't have criminal intent don't commit crimes is not news.
-=-=-
T. Archer  PA142548@utkvm1.utk.edu
University of Tennessee
"Vote Dempublican, it's easier than thinking." -- Unknown
-=-=-
From: larryd@milton.u.washington.edu (Larry Desoto)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Foreign Interest in the US RKBA (was ACLU & 2nd)
Date: 23 Jul 92 03:01:30 GMT
Organization: University of Washington

smpod@ariel.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan) writes:

>djewell@rhea.trl.OZ.AU (David Jewell - Radio and Satellite Networks) writes...
>> ...
>>What percentage of eligible people actually vote in US elections? 

>I think somewhere between 50-60%

>Here it is
>>about 98%, 

>I find that number extraordinary.  This figure is more typical in 'democracies'
>where voting is enforced by the gov.

Ahh..another *great* idea from OZ, mandatory voting.  How many of the
98% do anything except go in and pull a lever at random?  Is that really
what you want?  There must be quite a bit of competition between
candidates to get their name either first or last on the list.

The latest craze in Washington is motor/votor registration where you
are registered to vote when you renew your driver's license.  Registering
to vote is trivial and as far as I am concerned, anyone who is too lazy
to do it probably doesn't have a clue about what is goin on anyway.  The
people pushing these schemes generally think they can register the
dummies who may vote for them as long as they keep feeding them out of the
public hog trough.

--
Larry                                   |   Thunder makes all the noise;
                                        |   lightning gets the job done.
larryd@milton.washington.edu
I have my opinion; the university has its own.
From: rushing_tw@lrc.edu (Trigger)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: GUNS AND LITTLE REPRODUCTIVE ORGANS
Date: 29 Jul 92 19:43:17 EDT
Organization: Lenoir-Rhyne College, Hickory, NC

In reference to the article posted by Chris Blosser...

I have known him for a while and he's not a bad guy at all.  I think he posted
this just to piss people off so don't let it get to you.  I am his buddy and 
an avid supporter of firearms and he is always razzing me about it, as well as
my background in the USMC.  It was intended to be in good fun but it never 
ended up that way.  


I really think that Chris was born 30 years too late....

===============================================================================
Travis Rushing..."Trigger"  |  
LR College		    |  If it shoots, runs on gunpowder, shoots a big
Hickory, NC                 |  bullet, and makes LOTS of noise, thus producing
                            |  recoil - it's cool.
e-mail: RUSHING_TW@LRC.EDU  |  
                            |  
===============================================================================

Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns