HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ayr@gtech.com (Aleksey Y. Romanov)
Subject: Re: treacherous Russians (Baltic boshevicks)
Organization: GTECH Corporation, West Greenwich RI
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 17:08:26 GMT

In article <1992Aug28.223301.23601@leland.Stanford.EDU> georglin@leland.Stanford.EDU (george lin) writes:
>Looking through the Baltic discussion...
>1) The anti-Balt posters exaggerate the potential for terror against Russian
>settlers.  The new Baltic governments are not about to give Moscow any ex-
>cuse for  "rescuing its people."
But as we found from Estonian and Finnish contributors to that group they
(new Baltic goverments) have a policy of pushing russian speacking minority
out of thier countries.  They definetely  have a  right to do so. The only
problem is that they hardly be able to call themself civilized (sp ?) and
democratic after that.

Some people had remembered Algeria in this context. This is a future level
of new Baltic states. I hope that they are able to calculate these simple
equations and make a rigth desisions.

>2) They omit mention of the ex-Soviet army still planted in these sovereign
>countries--a rather truculent and hostile presence.
It does not have any links to the rights of permanent residents.

The only pupose of this posting is to clear following for myself:

     1. What is the long term goal of minority policy in Baltic states?
                a) drive out russian speacking minority out of Baltic
                b) provide base for long term discrimination against
                   russian speacking minority
                c) provide a way for ultra fast assimilation of
                   this minority into single nation
                d) it is just an example of idiotism

     2. Can anybody imagine the sequences of cases 1.a and 1.b ?



I have one strong evidence in favor of 1.d: discrimination against
poles in Lithuvania (sp ?). 


I do not think that a sitizenship should be automatically provided to
everybody. I do not think that language requirements are something illegal.
But I do not think that discrimination against permanent residents in the
employment, social benefits and property rights make any sense for a
civilized state.

I guess that if the goal of Baltic states is to drive russian speacking
minorities out the best way to do so is direct negotiations with Russia,
Ukraine, ... about deportation. Let us imagine the world reaction in the case.

The reaction will be exactly the same once it will be surfaced that driving
out minorities is an ultimate goal of current Baltic policy.



-- 
Aleksey Y. Romanov

DISCLAIMER: The views expressed are entirely my own and do not
necessary reflect those of my employer or anyone else
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti)
Subject: Re: Visa and border control
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 12:27:46 GMT

sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:
: Jarmo Ryyti (ryyti@jyu.fi) writes:
: >The border between Estonia and Russia is leaking all the time. The first
: >people of whom the estonians would like to get rid of are the criminals
: >coming from CIS, who can now move quite freely around, in and out.
: 
: No, no, you are not updated. The border between Russia and Estonia
: is in the process of being controlled just like any other border.
: Several people have had to turn back in lack of an Estonian visa.
: As you may now, Russian citizens need a visa to enter Estonia.

The boarders in Estonia are leaking towards
Russia. I was told it by very good finnish speaking estonians
while being just few weeks ago in Estonia. May be you in Sweden
know it better. 
: 
: Of course, there are probably still leaks, as the border control
: is only a few months old. And poorly paid, unexperienced border
: guards are of course good target for bribe attempts, testified
: by the Somalians who are passing Estonia with false passports
: on their way to Sweden.
: 
So you confess here what you first neglected! Strange, I just
stopped writting that estonian borders are leaking...

: >One reason why estonians want borders is economical but an other is
: >visa politics. For instance Finland will not allow free travel from
: >Estonia until there is not clear borders, controlled borders
: >around Estonia, because Finland has a policy not allow free travel
: >from Russia to Finland not either via Estonia.
: >...
: >At least in Finland is suspected that if there were a visa freedom
: >from Estonia in generally it were used as a loop hole to come to
: >Finland.
: 
: No, Jarmo, don't fool yourself. The reason that neither Finland
: nor Sweden are lifting the visa requirements for Baltic citizens
: is that they are afraid of people coming to our countries to
: escape the poor circumstances in their home countries. And this
: has nothing to do with people from Russia or anywhere else. It
: is Estonians, Latvians and Lithuanians our governments are
: afraid of.

Dear Erland,
The Finns are not afraid of estonians, lithuaninas or letts,
or russians. Only of narcotics, "mafia", alcohol smuggled
from those countries. Please write only for yourself Erland.

: 
: It is embarrassing that Estonians can go to the UK without a visa,
: but not to Sweden which is supposed to be such a "close friend".


I do not see any embarrassing in it. UK is far away, very few
estonians can cross the sea to UK in two hours! Look at a map,
please. Have you ever been to Estonia? Do you understand estonian
language Erland? Or do you just read your Swedish newspapers?
: -- 
Regards,
Jarmo Ryyti


: Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
: F|rst till kvarn f}r f|rst vankiva

Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet
From: ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti)
Subject: Re: "democratic" Estonia
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 08:07:16 GMT

oleg@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky) writes:
: In  <1992Aug27.092356.16987@jyu.fi>  ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:
: > muh@physics.Berkeley.EDU (Yury M. Mukharsky) writes:
: > : We are not talking about moving of citizens, too, you missed something,
: > : we are talking about expelling them, aren't we?
: > :
: > It is quite normal to expell the people who have come with the occupants
: > to live in a colony. Let us taken an example: 1960's when Algeria got
: > freedom, all the Frenchmen were expelled from Algeria, millions of people,
: > born in Algeria. Their property were confiscated and given for the locals.
: > There was no international voice about that and France took all coming
: > Frenchpeople from Algeria back. So had Russia and Ukraina to do for the
: > all returning russians and ukrainians from Estonia. It is normal.
: > Okay, Estonia is alone when Algeria had international support. Estonia
: > needs similar support now.
: 
: I am happy to see that you put today's Estonia on the same row with
: Algeria of the 1964. Good going, Jarmo !!!!!!!!!!! Why did not you
: draw a parallel with Nazi Germany which expelled its Jews and confiscated
: their property - that would have been another swell example.
: 
: Oleg Vishnepolsky

Oleg,
I took Algeria/France as an example how decolonialization goes in practise,
because it is near gegraphically and historically.

Some people seem to think that what is going on in the Baltics were
somothing new for the european colonial powers, so I took Algeria/
France as an example.

The Nazis were wiped out from Soviet Union
1945 I do not think that they had either had a right to stay or
become honorary citizens of Soviet Union. Now is similar process
going on in Estonia for the russian commmies.
Loyal russians and ukrainians are not facing any thred over there,
even old russian commies are still there and nobody is threatenig
them besides wishing they come down to the earth form their 
highnesses and began to study estonian a bit, swear loyalty
for Estonia. What is wrotn with that.
Estonians are so civilized and wise people they would never start any
aggressions in Estonia.Everyone in Estonia knows that Moscow is just
waiting bad news from Estonia in order to get reasons to stay so
the estoniana avaid all kind of conflicts. But Russian newspapers
do their best to build a picture for the averigde russian somewhere
behind Ural that in Estonia is a "very dangerous" place for the
russians.

BTW. I have been to Estonia , it is a boring country,
from touristical point of view flat,fields, not especially beautiful, you have
to look where to take bath in the sea because of the pollution.
Quite ugly towns, some nicer older places.
Karelia for instance much more beautiful place.
Jarmo
From: ns@csd.cri.dk (Nick Sandru)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: You thought bugging diplomats were history?
Date: 26 Aug 92 11:41:10 GMT
Organization: Computer Resources International A/S

sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) writes:

> ... I don't recall
>exactly, but I think it was Norway who extradited a Russian
>diplomat the other day, because of espionage.

It was not Norway, but Denmark. The diplomat in question was caught
in a restaurant in Copenhagen during a meeting with a Danish
employee who worked at the mairy of the Ballerup commune (20 km west
from Copenhagen). The employee was handing over to the Russian
diplomat a list with ID numbers of Danish citizens living abroad.
Those ID's were to be used by the KGB for providing its agents with
false identities. The diplomat was expelled, while the employee is
wating for the trial.

>--
>Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
>Life is wonderful when the wonderlife is full

Nick Sandru

aka Long Haired Nick
From: vadik@cs.umd.edu (Vadim Maslov)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: You thought bugging diplomats were history?
Date: 25 Aug 92 19:29:53 GMT
Organization: U of Maryland, Dept. of Computer Science, Coll. Pk., MD 20742

In article <1992Aug24.165223.15060@husc3.harvard.edu> verbit@birkhoff.harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky) writes:
>
>My estimation of amount of students was based on MGU (Moscow State U, where
>I was studying) data entirely, where there are 200 000 students
>(that's for sure).
>

I don't want to make personal insults, but if somebody other than
respected Mikhail S. Verbitsky said that there are 200 000 students
in MGU, I'd say that he's extremely ignorant or, in simpler words,
stupid.

MGU, in fact, has approximately 30,000 (or 17,000 -- don't remember
exactly) students. I admit that I'm slightly mistaken, and the number
may go up to 40,000. 



-- 

Vadim Maslov,	Phones: (301) 405-2726, (301) 474-3473
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: avsht@sph.spb.su (Alexander Shturm)
Subject: HELP !!!
Reply-To: avsht@sph.spb.su
Organization: Center SuperPhysica
Date: Wed, 02 Sep 92 00:04:51 +0400

    Dear netters,

    Probably, you are very busy people, but, please, pay attention to
this message.

    Please, help alone russian 25-years-old woman with the one-month
baby! They need your help very much!

    Believe me, she is very nice, kind and sweetheart person.
Unfortunately, the living obstacles doesn't allow her to get if only a
bit of happiness. She is really worthy of compassion.
You know, this is wild Russia, where every natural human wish is still
impossible to realize... And she with baby suffer a lot from that.

    We (her friends) are trying to help her. Unfortunately we are able
to provide only spiritual support, but we cannot resolve completely her
financial needs.

    She gets only 60% of the minimal level of poverty (this is allowance
for the baby). More precisely, she will get them in the future (how
soon - only russian bureaucracy knows that). And this money will be for
both of them! You can not believe me, but this is the truth: being
converted to dollars, this amount of money is $3 (three!!!) per month.
It isn't a mistake, the level of poverty in Russia is 900 rubles/month,
the rate of exchange now is about 170 r/$, you can calculate yourself...

    I understand that it's impossible to help everybody in former Soviet
Union. But this is real chance to help if only one. She needs any help,
and you will do it better than we are doing. Any clothes (for her and for
baby), any food (the same), essentials of life, everything you want you
can send her in usual parcel.

    Since she doesn't correspond to any category of the people getting
Western help, she didn't get any humanitarian aid.

Her address:
    Priemysheva Elena Viacheslavovna
    Budapeshtskaya st., 89-1-13
    St.Petersburg, Russia 192283
Phone number: 7-812-177-0335  (she doesn't speak English, though)

Thank you for your attention!
Any your help will be appreciated very much!

Sincerely yours,
Alexander Shturm


P.S. Please don't answer me to this newsgroup, because I don't read it.



Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Subject: Latvian citizenship
Organization: Enea Data AB
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 21:08:37 GMT

Alexei Stolboushkin (aps@sonia.math.ucla.edu) writes:
>A draft of Latvian citizenship law (I do not know of its current status)

The current status according to an RFE/RL report (I believe it was
there I saw it) is that the proposal has been put in a pending state,
probably at least to the end of the year. According to the RFE/RL
article the Latvian foreign minister Jurkans(?) expressed his
worries of a law that would lead to a great number of non-citizens
on Latvian territory. A very realistic view, I must say. Let's
only hope that Jurkans will not meet the same fate as Edgar Savisaar
did in Estonia. In any case, since they are not going ahead with
the proposal, there is apparently disagreement somewhere whether
proposal is a sound one.

(As I recall, the propsal sets up three requirements: 1) Residency
in Latvia for at least 16 years 2) Knowledge in Latvian 3) Taking a
loyaly oath or something similar. Being a Latvian citizen in 1940,
or the descendent of one is directly qualifying.)

>Indeed, many German nationals participated in the occupation of Russia,
>Latvia, Poland, etc., do not have citizenship of either of countries,
>and this is considered a normal situation.

This is a bizarre counter-example, as the Germans did not stay
long enough to be rooted there. (This is of course not true for
the Germans who were expelled from Silesia, Eastern Pommern,
East Prussia and Klaipeda after up to 800 years in these areas,
but I doubt anyone calls that a "normal situation".)

The massive Russian immigration in Estonia and Latvia is regrettable.
However, many of the immigrating Russians (and other Soviets) were
victims of the Soviet systems as well as the Balts.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
F|rst till kvarn f}r f|rst vankiva
From: KOROTKOV@auducvax.bitnet
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Private letter (Was: Re: Standing Trial)
Date: 24 Aug 92 00:48:00 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

>From: Dmitri Leschiner <dleschin@FEDS66.PRIME.COM>
>Subject: Private letter (Was: Re: Standing Trial)

In the letter to von Sohn I encountered the following phrase:

M>Russian anti-Semitism is not much better than this anti-German bigotry
M>of ours, and it is similarly understandable.

The author sounds as if he understands the nature of Russian anti-Semitism.
Though this thing can be explained in different ways. May be, there are
different types of it. Anyway, in order to get rid of it what is required is
to study the phenomenon. It happened so that I did not have an
opportunity to learn Jewish position on this question, that is the explana-
tion of this notorious prejudice. If ahy of the netters feels him/herself
pretty sure how to explain anti-Semitism of Russians and have time I will
be grateful.

Respectfuly
A.Korotkov
From: INIA100@INDYCMS.IUPUI.EDU (r Fredland)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: (none)
Date: 4 Sep 92 17:14:52 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

During the fall semester of 1992, a course on U.S. foreign policy will be offer
ed at Indiana Univ.-Purdue Univ. at Indianapolis (Indiana, USA). As the instruc
tor, I am interested in connecting my students with students abroad via bitnet
(electronic mail). My hope is to pt provide all of the students the opportunity
 to discuss and debate American foreign policy. Our students will be available
to "talk" with their peers from approximately 7 September 1992-1 December 1992
using e-mail. More details are available. Thank you. Richard Fredland Ph.D.
 inia100@indycms
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: oleg@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky)
Subject: treacherous Russians (Re: "democratic" Estonia)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 21:37:13 GMT
News-Software: IBM OS/2 PM RN (NR/2) v0.1 by O. Vishnepolsky and R. Rogers
Reply-To: oleg@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky)
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Were not the vocal Baltics "defenders" the ones who said here that Russians
are so treacherous that you can not turn your back to them or they will
put a knife into it ? Or that there are not a whole lot of educated and
civilized Russians/Ukranians ? Or Russia is "f*cked up" ?
There is a lot of bigotry in the region and statements such as above are a
good illustration of it. The funny thing is too see them cry wolf when
reports from independent sources get propagated into this newsgroup which
show the injustices that their respective governments are committing.

My apologies to Mark Hubey - having a sensitive subject in discussion,
it is easy to loose perspective on who is out of line, and who is
trying to start a constructive conversation. I blasted him for no
good reason. Sorry, Mark.

Oleg Vishnepolsky
Xref: sparky talk.politics.soviet:7621 soc.culture.soviet:7024
From: goykhman_a@apollo.hp.com (Alex Goykhman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: Shafarevich and National Academy
Date: 3 Sep 92 16:14:45 GMT
Article-I.D.: apollo.Bu0FsM.7A7
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Chelmsford, MA

In article <1992Sep03.133454.24256@watson.ibm.com> oleg@watson.ibm.com (Oleg Vishnepolsky) writes:
>>  I say, expel the anti-semitic bastard.
>
>If National Academy of Sciences starts judging its members on
>criterias that have nothing to do with science, it will damage its
>own image.

    Should then Dr.Mengele become an Honorary Member of NAS
    because of the unique medical experiments he conducted
    in the Nazi concentration camps?

 It should keep its nose out of its members prejudices
>equally as it keeps it out of their bedrooms.

    You seems to be confusing one's private and public 
    behaviour.  Shafarevich is an outspoken anti-semit,
    and as such does not belong to NAS.


-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: all opinions are mine.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: f33012l@puukko.hut.fi (Janne Kivel{)
Subject: Re: treacherous Russians (Baltic boshevicks)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 10:18:40 GMT

verbit@zariski.harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky) writes:

>And you are wrong (well, sort of). Estonians got their literature
>only in 19th century, Latvians more or less the same time. It is
>a lot later than Tadjiks or even Turkmens. In Estonia, there were
>more than 90% illiterate Estonians before 1918. All power
>belonged to Germans, even Russians were discriminated against.
>In Latvia, it was slightly better, but even there were less
>literate Latvians than in Tadjikistan - literate Tadjiks.

Same goes for Finland, since Finnish literature was really born in
19th century at the same time as our present national identity. Finnish case
is different from Estonia in respect of land ownership. While Estonians
had German masters and more feudal system, Finnish peasants enjoyed
more freedom. I believe the literacy rate was also higher in Finland.

>Lithuania is an exception, of course: they have had no less
>immense culture than any other mature European people. Not a wonder that
>a situation in Lithuania is better than in other two Baltics countries.

In what ways situation in Lithuania is better? The only way situation
in Lithuania actually differs from situation in Latvia and Estonia is
that there are considerably fewer Russians in Lithuania,

It's surprising that you suddenly start praising the maturity of Lithuanian
culture. They were, in fact, the last country in Europe to become 
Christian. :-)

I have no reason to undermine Lithuanian culture, but I'm trying to say that
your definition of cultural maturity has no basis in reality. In what ways
are Russians culturally more mature than Estonians? How does that affect
the treatment of minorities? Give me one example of how the great Lithuanian
culture helps them to treat their Polish minority better than Estonians
are treating their Russian minority, and then I'll tell you how pigs can fly.

>Misha.

Janne Kivela"
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
From: arto@leland.Stanford.EDU (Artavazd Khachikian)
Subject: Re: Ode to the missing
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 92 03:11:39 GMT

In article <9209031904.AA18441@samba.oit.unc.edu> "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.iupui.edu> writes:
>Hasan B. Mutlu,
>we bow our heads in shame;
>for driving you away
>you no longer make our day.
>
>For showing us the light,
>you got naught but grief;
>your precious pearls of wisdom
>so insightful, yet so brief!
>
>Hasan B Mutlu,
>return to us we pray!
>Let your cheerful disposition
>cast some sunshine out our way.


	Thank you for this brilliant, touching and inspiring piece of
poetry. 

	Maybe we should declare the 1 of September a day of mourn in
the newsgroups? Then according to our customs we should commemorate the 7 
and 40 days.