From: jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim)
Subject: Re: ShadowRun HEROIC??? (was Re: Burn, GURPS...)
Reply-To: jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 23:19:28 GMT

cwagner@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Christian Wagner) writes:
>jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (John H Kim) writes:
>The point I've been trying to make is that, while there are undoubtebly lots
>of very interesting, mature, and well-done SR campaigns out there, the base
>nature of the SR background and game system is conductive to an immature and
>uncreative play style, that SR attracts munchkins (both GM's and players) who
>like having a complete universe so they don't have to think of anything 
>themselves, and that SR, as a whole, is based around several flawed ideas that
>influence everything else. 

	Well - *attracting* munchkins doesn't make a system neccessarily 
bad, and it's not just munchkins who like playing in an already-made universe 
(ask any Amber player). 
	The question is, does SR *make* munchkins by its style? I don't know. 
I do know that SR attracts many more beginners than GURPS, and that 
munchkins are more often beginners - so its not suprising that one finds 
more munchkins in SR games. 

>>
>>	Uh, Chris - you just argued below that one cannot use the published 
>>modules to judge GURPS CP. I think that saying that you can judge SR based 
>>on its modules is hypocritical in the extreme. 
>
>John, by the very nature of GURPS, there is no "background" per se, or 
>standard theme in GURPS CP. Thus, because the GURPS CP Adventures book 
>is not part of any particular theme or background, one can't judge GURPS 
>based on the CP Adv. book. 
>
>Since SR's modules and supplements are all linked into one (semi)coherent 
>whole, one -can- use the SR modules to judge the way that Fasa has designed 
>their universe. 

>>
>> The GURPS Cyberpunk book, IMO, has a very good Netrunning and background 
>> ideas, but lousy cyberware and equipment. 
>
>I admit this, yes. GURPS has always been lax when it comes to equipment lists
>for unusual backgrounds. But then, do you -really- need stats for everything,
>like they have in SR and the like? 


>
>	This is whre we differ. I find the SR system to be awful (like 
>you), but I -definately- think that a 'cinematic' feel is -wrong- for 
>cyberpunk-style gaming. 

	Let's take a typical story - maybe "Johnny Memory" by Gibson. It 
starts with an armed meeting in a bar, an illicit courier (read shadowrunner)
attempts to get his money with a shotgun. Some strange woman shows up out 
of nowhere to save him. A super-powered assassin kills their prisoner and 
disappears. Etcetera. And it ends with Molly fighting hand-to-hand with 
the assassin in single combat. (And this is the *good* CP stuff). 
	The *plot* is typical of cinema (R-rated, of course). What makes 
it cyberpunk is the attitude and the style. 

>
>I also think the background is crap. It's derivative, unoriginal, full of 
>munchkin-bait, and, most importntly, it's -NOT- cyberpunk. 

	Well, it never claimed to be pure cyberpunk - it never billed 
itself as a simulation of cyberpunk literature. I would agree that it 
is considerably different than the majority of CP literature that is out 
there. Is this neccessarily bad? No. 

>
>This is a -problem- in my view, having the original game based on
>'shadowruns'. It may make things easier for beginning characters, but in the
>long haul, lots of players will never go farther than the initial stages.
...
>This is what I have seen in my experience; your milage may vary.
...
>Maybe I just picks my gaming groups well, but I've never had a single 
>complaint from a new GURPS player over the creation rules. I've heard 
>nothing but compliments for the system, 

	Well, I think one of the primary causes and reasons for this 
group is that gamers are not a homogenous mass. My experiences with gamers 
at U of Chicago was considerably different than here at Columbia. Different 
people may see very different games using the same system. 
	The only times I have seen SR games have been good, actually. 
Richard Garfinkle out in Chicago was running one (hi, Ron); and my friend 
Marc ran one down in Baltimore - and they were both highly non-munchkin. I 
don't think this is representative, however - I would probably guess that 
most SR campaigns are very much like you describe. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Kim                    | "You're on the cutting room floor, Chaplin.
jhk6@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu | Not a good place to be."
Columbia University         |                  (from the movie 'Chaplin')
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy