From: rich@pencil.cs.missouri.edu (Rich Winkel)
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.policy,alt.activism,alt.activism.d
Subject: Re: Call For Discussion - unmoderating misc.activism.progressive
Date: 27 Jan 93 01:21:20 GMT
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: PACH
Originator: rich@pencil.cs.missouri.edu

Michael Friedman writes that "clearly" misc.activism.progressive (MAP)
has become ... a megaphone for [co-moderator] Harel [Barzilai] to
promulgate views he agrees with while muffling those he disagrees
with."

Friedman's evidence on which he bases his claims is the fact that we,
MAP's co-moderators, had decided to discontinue MIM's (Maoist
International Movement) apologetics for the terrorist Sendero Lumenoso
forces in Peru(*) on MAP, and have received, along with many letters
of support, letters ranging from concern to fervent opposition from
some six or seven rather vocal individuals (including MIM) -- this is
the "flap" Friedman refers to.

To assess Friedman's "clear" accusations [his post is enclosed at
bottom] is it useful to note two things:

Harel sees none -- that's right, *none* -- of the items submitted
for posting to MAP by the readership. Until very recently, all
"outside" submissions -- submissions other than co-moderators
forwarding from PeaceNet, EcoNet, LaborNet, Z articles, auto-posts,
etc -- went through co-moderator Rich Winkel, on whose machine many
MAP/ACTIV-L set-ups are based. In fact we have been led to investigate
a means of "splitting up" the outside submissions so that several
co-moderators, each thus having more time to look over the submitted
items, receive them rather than Rich alone.

Harel's totalitarian control over MAP is further highlighted by a
second fact:

He has time to (regularly) read very little, in fact, of what is
posted to MAP.  Due to this, Rich forwards to Harel those items
requiring his response (usually a user asking for information/help for
something Harel is responsible for). One such item was a letter to
which Harel responded and posted to MAP, not realizing that this time
Rich had forwarded the submitted pro-MIM letter to alt.activism and
forwarded to Harel from there, so that the response should have been
sent to alt.activism.

				 ***

In light of these two facts, it is not difficult to judge Friedman's
assessment that what is or is not posted to MAP is based on Harel's
autocratic decree. Of course, Friedman never bothered to find out
about these facts, nor had the courtesy to carbon-copy his charges
against MAP to Harel or Rich or the other co-moderators, as we
had carbon-copied "nyxfer" (and "mim", although that address as given
on PeaceNet failed) about the decision not to carry further articles
by "MIM" which they [nyxfer] distribute.

Such attacks against MAP are waged every six to twelve months,
perhaps, by the same group of people who never accepted that the
UseNet have a place where activist information, resources, and
articles, be readily available to progressive activists without having
to swim through the constant flames, infantile sarcastic quips, and
other "arguments" by reactionaries (or "conservatives") in an
un-moderated forum. It is almost pointless to conjecture whether this
latest attack, so utterly disconnected with the facts, is a case of
reactionary net paranoia or a deliberate and calculated assault; in
many cases, there is a rather fine line between lies and
self-deception.

We may draw some conclusions, however, from that fact that *even if*
Friedman were to have honestly believed the charges he made, rather
than being interested in destroying the progressive space on the net
provided by MAP, then at issue would have been whether Harel had been
exercising too much control -- and, if the situation had then proved
to be extreme indeed, and repeated, then perhaps, the possibility of
replacing Harel could have come up -- but certainly the de-moderation
of the entire newsgroup would not be at issue.

As for the "free un-fettered debate" on UseNet -- we strongly believe
in the open forums such as alt.activism and talk.politics.misc,
including a strong belief in MIM's right to use these; MAP, however,
is *not for discussions* (all followups are automatically set to
alt.activism.d for discussion) as clearly stated in MAP's Charter which
was repeatedly posted before being voted-in by a margin of some 400 votes.

As moderators of the real MAP, and not that of Friedman's fantasies,
we will continue to offer a place for dissemination of news,
information, resources, and articles of interest to the
progressive/activist community. We will continue to be liberal in
deciding whether or not submissions fall under the "progressive"
category and will continue to post items with which some/all of us
might not agree. While our practice is to be open to changes in policy,
e.g.  vis a vis MIM, if there had been substantial disagreement with
it by our readership, we are not surprised that other than a vocal
minority of MIM and literally a handful of readers, our readership
seems to agree that Stalinist apologetics for the crimes of "left"
groups/governments are not "progressive" (or genuinely democratic
"Left") and are no way of building a more just, humane, and democratic
society and world.

Harel 	Barzilai	co-founder, co-moderator
Rich  	Winkel		co-founder, co-moderator, main PeaceNet coord.
Jym 	Dyer		co-moderator, main EcoNet coord.
Phillip Zerbo (NLNS)	co-moderator, main LaborNet coord.
Jon	Aske		z/chomsky article main coord.

(*) who are terrorist not by the State-Department-Says-So rule but by
virtue of reports (Amnesty International; Americas Watch; Council on
Hemispheric Affairs) indicating not "some human rights abuses" but a
consistent, systematic pattern of murder and repression against
Peruvians

******************************************************************
******************************************************************

According to Michael Friedman:
> Date: Thu, 21 Jan 93 19:40:45 CST
> Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.activism.d,news.groups
> From: oracle!us.oracle.com!mfriedma@uunet.UU.NET (Michael Friedman)
> Subject: Call For Discussion - unmoderating misc.activism.progressive
> Organization: Oracle Corporation
> Followup-To: alt.activism.d
> 
> I think the recent flap over MIM and misc.activism.progressive clearly
> demonstrates that misc.activism.progressive has become exactly what we
> were told it would not be - a megaphone for Harel to promulgate views
> he agrees with while muffling those he disagrees with.
> 
> I feel very strongly that this is contrary to the basic spirit of
> Usenet - free, unfettered debate.
> 
> Therefore, I think that misc.activism.progressive should be
> unmoderated.
> 
> Comments, please?
> 
> -- 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> I am not an official Oracle spokesman.  I speak for myself and no one else.
Newsgroups: news.groups