From: john@anasazi.com (John R. Moore)
Subject: Re: Better Off Than Four Years Ago NOT
Reply-To: john@anasazi.com
Organization: Anasazi Inc, Phoenix AZ USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 17:17:25 GMT

Keywords: 

In article <1992Sep2.222118.9616@pony.Ingres.COM> garrett@Ingres.COM (QUOTE OF THE YEAR) writes:
]In article <1992Sep2.163746.12625@anasazi.com>, john@anasazi.com                 writes...
]>In article <1992Sep2.012357.10369@pony.Ingres.COM> garrett@Ingres.COM (QUOTE OF THE YEAR) writes:
]>]In article <la81loINNi@spim.mips.com>, mpolen@suntory.mips.com (Michael writes...
]>]>In article <1992Sep1.152133.25112@linus.mitre.org>, m23364@mwunix (James Meritt) writes:
]>What about the fact that all of those folks (with the possible exception
]>of the people of Western Europe, who did virtually nothing)
]
]The NA in NATO stands for North Atlantic, not North American. How much
]money and troops did Western Europe contribute to containing the USSR?
]I'm not sure of the numbers, but I'm willing to bet it was in the billions.

The bulk of it was provided by the United States. Also, don't forget
the Marshall plan, which rebuilt the western european economies after
WW-II.
]You also didn't address the story of the Afghani people. It's one thing 
]to build bombs and send money, it's a totally different story to put
]your life on the line. One takes capital, another takes guts.

And without the building bombs and sending money, and the other things
that the US did, the Afghani's would still be lurking in the hills
killing russians, rather than killing each other, which they now are
doing and historically far prefer to do :-)

] credit
]>Ronald Reagan with winning the fight?
]
]The AFL-CIO sent millions to the Solidarity Movement in Poland. How much
]did Reagan send?

Quite a bit, but it had to be much more covert - it was done largely
in conjunction with the Catholic church and the pope.
]
] How about the fact that Gorbachev
]>credit's Reagan's policies with forcing him to introduce the reforms that
]>ultimately lead to the collapse of the USSR?
]
]Long before Gorbachev instituted those reforms, there were stories in 
]the newspapers of how potatoes were rotting in the fields in the Ukraine
]because there wasn't enough boxes and crates to put them in.

Yes, this was true... going back decades. However, it was Gorby,
responding to Reagan's policies (that it, if you believe Gorby)
that actually set reforms in motion. Prior to that the Communist
ruling class didn't care... they had their perks and to hell with the
people.

]
] Reagan had three policies that
]>had a strong effect:
]>  -support of insurgent movements against communist regimes (the Reagan 
]>   doctrine)
]
]This goes all the way back to 1919, and it was done dozens, if not hundreds
]of times before Reagan ever came to office. If you'll recall, we even
]invaded Russia itself, along with the U.K. and several other countries,
]in 1919-21 to try to overthrow the Bolsheviks. This doctrine was 
]instituted and carried out many times long before Reagan was anything 
]more than a B actor. This is not to say that I support the doctrine,
]just that I acknowledge it. 

Well, we did try in 1919-1921. We did NOT try it later until under
Reagan. Refute me with details if we can.
]
]>  -support of an arms buildup - especially SDI
]
]Reagan's arms buildup began under Carter. The arms race itself began
]under Truman.

And Reagan kept the arms buildup in place when the democratic
congress did its best to gut it. And Reagan pushed SDI (which did NOT
begin under Carter) and scared the Soviets to death with it.
]
]>  -public condemnation of the Soviet system as evil.
]
]You'll recall that this was done many times in the 50's. It was
]also done many times before and after that, by everyone from 
]politicians down (or up).

It was not done from the mid-60's on.

]
]>]	If you want to give ANY credit to American presidents, then give
]>]it to Kennedy (Cuban missle crises), and Truman (Berlin crises).
]> 
]>You've got to be kidding about Kennedy. Kennedy is the guy who brought
]>us the continued dictatorship of Fidel Castro by reneging on his
]>promises to the Cuban resistance during the Bay of Pigs fiasco.
]
]Castro came into power under Eisenhower. Also, the Bay of Pigs fiasco
]was not Kennedy's plan. He never promised air support, that's why
]he didn't give it.

Oh, I see. Because Eisenhowere decided to rectify his mistake, but he
was no longer in power, Kennedy is excused? Give me a break. The Bay of
Pigs fiasco may not have been Kennedy's plan, but the event took place
when he was commander in chief, and the plans called for air support,
and he didn't give it. I'll give in on this one, though.... Kennedy
didn't screw up, he just murdered a bunch of Cubans for the hell of it.

]>By the way, the result of the Cuban missile crises was that the
]>Soviets had to remove missiles that they had never activated, while the
]>US had to guarantee that we would not interfere with one of the
]>hemisphere's biggest butchers - in perpetuity.
]> 
]Perhaps you should look up the dictatorship records of Pinochet, the
]continuing story of the El Salvadorian government, and the 100,000
]dead and missing from the government supported military in 
]Guatemala. Castro pales by comparison. What do these countries have
]in common? They were all actively supported by Reagan. Who is the
]real butcher?

Perhaps you should take a better look at Castro. He was certainly not
the only butcher around, but he was the biggest... especially when you
consider all the arms he sent, and is still ending to communist
guerrilla movements throughout the world. Oh.... I guess we should just
not count the people slaughter in Angola by Cuban troops... and the
Salvadoran terrorists, etc. We should ignore the many thousands of
dead and missing in Cuba.

]>]	Let's get real people. Reagan and Bush just happened to be
]>]on the watch when the collapse came.
]> 
]>Nice try, but the evidence is against you. Go ask a Pole, or a Russian,
]>whether they think Reagan's policies didn't have a major factor in the
]>collapse of the USSR.
]
]Go ask an Afghani who kicked the Russians out their country. Go ask a 
Yes, they were very grateful to the CIA who provided the weapons to
do so.
]Lithuanian who kicked the Russains out of their country. Ask any Finlander
THe Lithuanians have said that they credit Reagan for setting it up. By the
way, the did NOT kick the Russians out... the Russians are still there,
they are just politically defanged.
]bombed. It is arrogant to think that we were responsible for the 
]collapse of the USSR.

As the predominant free world power, our policies had the greatest
effect on the issue. Of course we weren't the only ones, but it is
small minded to ignore the tremendous effect that the policies of
the president of the US has on these affairs. If we had had someone
without the courage and moral directness of Reagan in power, the
Soviets would not have collapsed (if you believe Gorbachev or the millions
in Eastern Europe who hail Reagan as their liberator).


-- 
John Moore NJ7E, 7525 Clearwater Pkwy, Scottsdale, AZ 85253  (602-951-9326)
john@anasazi.com ncar!noao!asuvax!anasaz!john anasaz!john@asuvax.eas.asu.edu
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