From: johnhall@microsoft.com (John Hall)
Subject: Re: "Reflections of an Affirmative Action Baby"
Date: 14 Dec 92 22:51:03 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation
Distribution: usa

In article sunny@al.cs.wm.edu (John S. Egbo) writes:
| |> Dan S.
| 
| So what?
| 
| You go on to ignore what I said earlier.  Why do you ignore major
| factors that account for drop out rates better than test score in your
| interpretation of the meaning of your statistics?  

I must have missed this.  Certainly there are reasons why the drop
out rate would be higher for minorities -- culture shock for one
(and it can be a big one).  In the case of elite institutions, I
don't think financial is a big part of it -- though it could well
be for other institutions.

How do your other factors explain the differences amoung black
graduation rates (AA vs higher standards admissions)?  18% AA
blacks and 40% 'merit' admissions, some at a level other students
would never be admitted on.  I can understand explaining a difference
between the 70% white/asian rate and the 40% on culture and economics,
but I have a harder time seeing the difference between the 40% and the
18% explained in the same way.

| Quoting Berkley, Harvard and Yale is NOT a substitute for good 
| scientific analysis.  

Only reasonable analysis I've seen, and the only hard data I've seen.
If you posted a different analysis I missed it (sorry).  I'm perfectly
willing to read it and change my mind.  I didn't read books such
as Gertrude Ezorsky's because I was only interested in one side of the
issue.


| If
| you are wondering why you might reach the same conclusion as some (*note
| your own words*) elite schools, have you considered the possiblity that
| their statistics is just as self-serving as yours?  

The report from Berkley was internal and not meant for publication.
Are you accusing them of cooking the books?  And how would they
do that except by outright fabrication?  And why, when some schools
have lost their accredidation because they didn't pass enough
blacks students?  Fabrication, of an internally generated non-public
report, seems to be counter-intuitive.  Remember -- Berkley LIKES
their AA program.  If anything, they have an incentive to cook
the books the other way.

| I have already 
| pointed out some of the major factors for anyone (black, white, asian,
| or latino) to drop out of school.  You ignored them.

I missed it.  

| I think that you are jumping to conclusions.  Who do you think you
| are fooling?  Quit feeding us garbage.

The response, in general, to detailed postings about Berkley
or my earlier analysis of the effects of race norming admissions
on blacks, hispanics, asians, and whites was met with deafening
silence.

Unlike, of course, a posting by Parks which attracts a blizzard of
blind fury attacking his idiocy.

Now if you really want to discuss these things without yelling or
calling people names I'm perfectly willing to do so.  I'm willing
to discuss what a perfect study would account for.  But absent a
better piece of information, I'm not willing to toss what we do
have when it isn't obviously misleading.  I'm 
not willing to deal with allegations that ``this doesn't account
for 100 different factors, and if it did I'm sure I'd be right
but no I don't have any information to substantiate my claims''.


-- 
-------------------------
My comments are my own.  They are independent and unrelated to the
views of my company , relatives or elected representatives.

Newsgroups: misc.education,soc.culture.african.american,alt.discrimination