HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ceci@lysator.liu.se (Ceci Henningsson)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Where to start. Reply to questions.
Date: 15 Apr 92 20:43:06 GMT
Organization: Lysator Computer Club, Linkoping University, Sweden


It might just aswell have been I who had written the question about a
starting point for the study and practice of magick, so I am taking
the liberty of answering BA Davis-Howe's questions, hoping that
someone can point me somewhere.

>To answer this query, I would need more information about you:
>What do you already know about magic?

Not much. I have read some about the person Crowley, and browsed
through one of his books, but I realised that I wanted something more
straightforward and more attuned to women.

>What do *you* mean by magic?

The use of my imagination to achieve changes in what I perceive as the
reality. Also some constructive earth-bound work seems somehow
magickally charged to me: gardening, sewing, baking bread.

>How do you tend to think/work best in general?

I am auditive, have a talent for languages and am a water-colour
artist. I do zazen twice a day.

>What sort of world view do you presently use?

The Copenhagen Model i e I prefer several models to explain what I
see, rather than one or none. I am heavily influenced by Robert Anton
Wilson's view of the world and Discordianism. And Zen.

>Have you studied any types of magic?

No.

>Have you practiced any types of magic?

Do you call eating the first spring grass because I felt so, magick?
Or wearing a stone I got from my mother? The thoughts I get when I put
on the anorack I have made myself?

>Do you know what sort of things are your strong points?

Languages,water-colours, putting myself in someone else's position.

>Have you observed any magical talents in yourself?

No, I haven't looked for any.

>Have you developed any magical talents that you have?
>What are you looking for?  What are your goals?

I want to see if magick can make my life more interesting than it
already is. My goal is to see for myself.

>Why do you want to learn magic?

It is a highly controversial field. I would like some personal
experience to form an opinion of it. Also I feel a need for words to
put on some things in my life.

>What do you think is involved in learning magic?

A lot of studying and trying to understand concepts that are new to
me. 

>What do you think is involved in practicing magic?

Intense feelings, hard work, effort of will, imagination, letting go
of skepticism.

Thank you for providing me with the questions.

--Ceci
--
=====ceci@lysator.liu.se===========================================
"Tyger, tyger, burning bright
in the forest of the night"
William Blake
From: wrasman@cs.utk.edu ('Walker Of Change')
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Enochian Magick
Date: 8 Apr 92 14:09:48 GMT
Organization: University of Tennessee, Knoxville - CS Department
NNTP-Posting-Host: duncan.cs.utk.edu


Can anyone suggest references on this type of magic. I've only heard about it
vaguely from people I know. I was wondering if there were any good books on the
subject.
-- 
  @             Internet:wrasman@cs.utk.edu, as766@cleveland.freenet.edu 
 (!=>---        Bitnet:Razron@utkvx                                      
 / ) Raz        Usnail: 1629 w. Cumberland 818A Knoxville,TN 37916       
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: Ritual Magick Experiences
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 15:51:30 GMT


The following are notes to and from the person who started this thread.
They are being posted because I would like others to see the points I made
in my response.  Please note--the language of my response is quite harsh, 
and should not be take personally by anyone but the person to whom the note
was originally adressed.
I am a bitch, but I'm cute, wide-eyed, and fluffy, so I get away with it. :-)


From cb@maths.bath.ac.uk Mon Apr 13 10:29:56 1992
To: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu
Subject: Another holy roller


>This is for discussing our practice.

You guys don't want to discuss your practice.

>I don't think the value of magic has anything to do with its
>provability.

You miss my point completely.  I'm saying that you guys are full of
it, and you've got nothing to say in response.  Pretty weak.


From: ba (B.A. Davis-Howe)
To: cb@maths.bath.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Another holy roller

If you don't like what you see in the newsgroup, then either contribute
something of value, or GO AWAY.

Why do you think that we should be *gving* you something?  What have you given
to the newsgroup?

If you think we are full of it, then why are you even reading the group?

We are not here for non-practitioners...they can read, but that is not the
purpose for which we post.  We do discuss our practice--in language which
is clear to those who practice.  It is not jargon, but it can only be
understood *if* you have the experiences to relate to it.

If you've met Delores Ashcroft-Nowiki, and haven't found anything for you
in magic, then magic is probably not for you.  So go play chess.

Better yet, write to whatever newsgroup is for chess players and ask them
to justify spending time playing chess.  See how friendly they are about it.

I am truly sick of people asking me to justify my actions for their convenience.

Bran

Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: pautler@ils.nwu.edu (David Pautler)
Subject: emotion & free will (was Re: jB)
Organization: The Institute for the Learning Sciences
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 01:23:00 GMT

In article <1992Apr6.171340.5845@samba.oit.unc.edu>, shava@gibbs.oit.unc.edu (Shava Nerad Averett) writes:

[some deleted]

> Well, short of the quantum folks, most scientists would probably tell you
> that since Free Will isn't quantifyable, science really couldn't give a 
> damn.  A couple weeks ago, I heard Jay Stevens (Storming_Heaven: LSD_and_
> the_American_Dream) talking about the cyberphreaks at MIT who are talking
> about being able to download the ego into a computer.  "The only problem
> is that you'd have to leave the emotions behind," he said, "but these 
> don't figure that's much of a loss." [paraphrased]  Scared the shit outa
> me.  So maybe the AI's of the future won't have souls, and they'll be
> us...?

I agree with all the points you make preceding this one, Shava.

I think Mr. Stevens is underestimating the importance of emotions to the mind.
Also, I think the problem goes beyond emotions to "feeling" in general.
For example, how well can we explain to others what it feels like to jump
in a pool filled with cold water?  It's even harder to explain the feeling
to a machine, because when explaining it to people, you can rely on common
experiences of being cold; machines have no idea what it's like to have
a physical body (and robot bodies wouldn't solve the problem because
robot bodies would never function just like ours, and it's the rush of
blood, hormones, etc. which gives us "feeling").

So machines can't "feel"; why is that a major problem?  Well, consider
what I said about the importance of metaphor in another thread here.
Metaphor is used for all kinds of reasoning; it's part of the warp and
woof of the mind.  Metaphors are also based on everyday experience, and
that often involves "feeling".  When people talk about a sports event
as if it were a war situation, they're not talking about abstract
commonalities but how it feels to struggle against an opponent and
achieve victory or defeat.  If we can't get machines to feel, I think
"artificial intelligences" won't be very intelligent (or interesting).

That's not to say AI is worthless.  It's valuable enough to study
human cognition without trying to make a perfect counterpart to it.
(That's why I'm in it; definitely not to "improve on" human beings).

BTW, was Mr. Stevens talking about programming an AI system, or literally
downloading brain impulses to a machine?  I think the possibility of the
latter is very remote.

[an earlier poster asked:]

> >Are we AI's with Free Will?

AI and cognitive science attempt to characterize human intelligence as fully
as possible.  If free will is part of human intelligence, then it should be
within the domain of AI also.  AI is just a description of *you*.

	-dp-
From: shava@hermes.oit.unc.edu (Shava Nerad Averett)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Ritual Magick Experiences
Date: 13 Apr 92 23:20:46 GMT
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill

I've been avoiding responding to this for days...;-)

In article <1992Apr5.211303.18018@gdr.bath.ac.uk> mascdb@gdr.bath.ac.uk (C D Burdorf) writes:
>I was wondering if anyone out there might be brave enough
>to share some experiences they've had with ritual magick?
>
>Specific topics of interest:
>1. What type of ritual and source
>2. Did the ritual summon any supernatural entities?
>3. Did the ritual bring about a desired result?
>4. Finally, has anyone ever run into a black magician?
>I'm not certain if they exist.  I've never met one.  There
>are constant stories and warnings of them, but I've never quite
>met one.  Please don't practice it on me to prove you exist if 
>you are one, but please share any experiences you may have had.

Let's cover #4 first.  It's easy.  I have run into at least one self-
identified black magician, so I guess they must exist, unless you want
to give me a definition to compare him against to prove that he doesn't
fit your criteria of the "set of all black magicians."

The first three actually give rise to one general comment (which josh
already somewhat addressed with his post on the four powers of the 
sphinx).  

Secrecy in magick is not because people *want* to withhold information.
It is because it is difficult to discuss the experience of magick with 
another person.  Perhaps it would be better to consider it mystery than
secrecy.

The best analogy I can give you is that of sex:  I would probably find
it *easier* to write about my sex life than about my ritual life, but
I wouldn't write about either in explicit terms to the net.  Not only
would it be profaning something private and sacred, but it would never
portray the effect in person, no matter how good of a pornographer or
writer of erotica I might be.

When I discuss sex with my close friends, it tends to devolve from 
intellectual wordy exposition.  ("You know how it feels when he, you 
know..." "MMmmmm..." "Isn't that wild?  Then, you know, you can kinda
push a little right, like, here?" "REALLY?!"...)   It sounds like drivel
without the emotional, body language, and personal knowledge of the 
people involved.  This is a sort of ad absurdum analogy at this point,
but on some level, it maps.

I have to be as close to a person as I would expect to be to a lover
to be able to discuss the intimate details of my practice.  In fact, it
is fairly common for the set-of-people-I-would-practice-with and the
set-of-people-I-would-have-sex-with to overlap.  The older I get, the
smaller either set gets...;-)

And even having to *explain* this feels odd...

-- 
Shava Nerad Averett				shava_averett@unc.edu
/*  all materials (c)1992, Shava Nerad Averett, and have nothing significant
    to do with the University of North Carolina, a mostly owned subsidiary 
    of the NC Legislature, a mostly owned subsidiary of the DOT.      */
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: stark@dwovax.enet.dec.com (Todd I. Stark)
Subject: Re: BibloFAQ
Summary: ... reactions.
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: 14 APR 92 09:58:17    


In article <1992Apr12.170437.12580@demon.co.uk>, shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk (Leo Smith) writes...
> 
>... lots more books to suggest, but categories first:-
> 
>        Ouspensky/Gurdjieff
>        Chinese philosophy (i.e I Ching/ etc)
>        Taoism
>        Hinduism
>        Post-psychedelic stuff (Lilly, et al)
> 
>Any reactions to these?

Thanks !

	I am adding a category for The_Fourth_Way.   That's a personal
	interest of mine, so I can probably start it off with a half
	dozen or so to start.

	So far, study of psychedelics (e.g. John Lilly, Timothy Leary, 
	Charles Tart) seems to fit into the existing category of 'altered 
	states psychology.'

	As for separate categories for various Eastern philosophies,
	it all depends on how many references we get.  
	For example, there is a large body of literature in Chinese about 
	Alchemy and Taoist magic, but if we have no references, it doesn't
	make any sense to dedicate an empty category to it, separate
	from other Chinese philosophies.

	I was thinking of combining Hinduism and Yoga as Indian magical
	philosophy, unless there are more recommended references.

							kind regards,

							todd
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: joshua@coombs.anu.edu.au (Joshua Geller)
Subject: Re: Ritual Magick Experiences
Organization: Computer Services Centre, Australian National University
Date: 15 Apr 92 17:29:03 GMT

mascdb@gdr.bath.ac.uk (C D Burdorf) writes:

>>>The scientific method has been used to prove the existence of psychic 
>>>powers. Why shouldn't it be able to prove the results of magick as well.  
>>>All you have to do is have a series of rituals and show that the desired 
>>>result was aacheived at a consistency that substantially exceeds the laws 
>>of >probability.  That's how they did it with psychic powers.

I wasn't aware that the existance of psychic powers had been definitevely '
proven'; I know experiments have been done, but the results of these 
experiments have been heavily questioned. this is not sci.skeptic, but saying 
something like that on that newsgroup will get you a lot of information
about parapsychological experiments etc....

josh
Xref: sparky alt.magick:1971 alt.pagan:4526
Organization: University of Maine System
Date: Thursday, 9 Apr 1992 00:09:39 EDT
From: Ailsa N.T. Murphy <IO81409@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Newsgroups: alt.magick,alt.pagan
Subject: Re: tainze' service?

there is interest.  i haven't the vaguest what you all are talking
about, and i thought i was up on odd fringy christian stuff...

                        -ailsa
From: shava@gibbs.oit.unc.edu (Shava Nerad Averett)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: sex magick
Date: 6 Apr 92 19:01:49 GMT
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill

In article <1992Apr1.204640.14652@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:
And Shava expurgates every instance of the word 'magic' to make a point...

>Personal opinion:  Sex should be used within the context of 
>experience. If you aren't already practicing--don't start with sex.
>(Personally, I would question my motives if I wanted to do sex outside
>the context of an established relationship.  Why am I wanting to do 
>sex?)  If you think that sex is an easy way to raise lots of power,
>you are coming at it from the wrong angle.  Sex is sophisticated stuff.
>It is very powerful if you can already do [it].  It is a silly excuse to have
>sex if you don't have any idea what you are doing.  I would recommend doing
>auto-erotic sex for a while before attempting sex with a partner
>(or group).
>
Nothing personal, Bran, but it is very silly and very true!

>Disclaimer: I have no experience performing sex magic with anyone but myself.

I have, and I wouldn't recommend sex magick to the naive or the unkind.

All sex is sex magick, done right...

IMNSHO.
-- 
Shava Nerad Averett				shava_averett@unc.edu
/*  all materials (c)1992, Shava Nerad Averett, and have nothing significant
    to do with the University of North Carolina, a mostly owned subsidiary 
    of the NC Legislature, a mostly owned subsidiary of the DOT.      */
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: misha@netlink.cts.com (Michael Glosson)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Sex Magick
Date: 14 Apr 92 13:47:03 GMT
Article-I.D.: netlink.5548iB2w164w
Organization: NetLink Online Communications, San Diego CA

tim@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Maroney) writes:
> 
> What a disgusting, prudish, anti-Thelemic viewpoint!  You seem
> convinced that the natural sexual impulse is evil and that sex can only
> be redeemed through a sort of Apollonian constraint.  This is not even
> in line with your own prophet's writings; what do you think the
> "impulse" of Liber Artemis Iota refers to?
> 
> "Magical chastity" does not consist of some puritanical restraint of
> the sexual function, but of the bringing of sacredness to all sexual
> thoughts and conduct.  When you see the "critter" (no bestiality for
> me, thanks -- I assume you meant "woman") in the tight leather
> mini-skirt and you feel the sap rising, that should be understood as a
> spiritual process.  Whatever charge you get in your aura from sex
> magick should start to manifest then.
> 
> You really need to brush up on Thelemic sex magick, oh you spouter of
> Thelemic slogans.  I recommend re-reading _The_Book_of_Lies_ first, and
> than asking yourself: who is wiser, you, or that within you which is
> billions of years old?
 
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
 
And just such dedication is just what will keep me away from using Sex
Magick on a regular (i.e. Daily) bases, Sweet Timmy.  And who said anything
about "puritantical restraint"?  Under such a practice, Sex is a sacrament,
not a recreational activity.
 
And Thelemic Sex Magick isn't the only Sex Magick game in town.  It is the
most accessable.  The uses of Sexual energies (not necissarily the sexual
act) in such rituals as Star Ruby, Star Sapphire, Regulie, The Gnostic
Mass is about the most I'll ever go down that path, especially since
my inclinations are no where as "Vanilla" as yours are. 
 
Well, this stance of yours explains that fresh pop'd popcorn aspect of you
that I have noticed for over two years.
 
Love is the law, love under will.
 
m.
 

--                    
INTERNET:  misha@netlink.cts.com (Michael Glosson)
UUCP:   ...!nosc!ryptyde!netlink!misha
NetLink Online Communications * Public Access in San Diego, CA (619) 435-6181
From: Gerald_Del_Campo@sorinc.UUCP (Gerald Del Campo)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Money for Magick?
Distribution: world
Date: 9 Apr 92 13:22:59 PDT
Organization: Shades of Reality BBS - Medford, Oregon

In a message dated Tue  7 Apr 92 17:26, Hiho@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (mark Peterso
wrote:


 HP> Besides, would you trust an initiation you had to pay for -- with
 HP> money?

If there is costs involved in the initiation, do you think that the burden
should fall on the initiator, or on the person receiving the initiation?

Gerald

-- Via DLG Pro v0.991
From: dionysia@netlink.cts.com (Dionysia Marqueza)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: help requested (long)
Date: 11 Apr 92 22:50:14 GMT
Organization: NetLink Online Communications, San Diego CA


        I read a lot of netmail, on Fido and Usenet. The following appeared on     

Usenet alt.native, and I would like to bring it to everyone's attention. If you     
   
wonder -why- I do, spend a little time imagining what it would be like to be in 
Tony and Thelma Rio's position, with no money and little hope of being able to 
have the benefits of the legal assistance only money can provide in this country
-these people need your help, whether it be money, networking, good wishes or  
just plain moral support and energy. 
        If you think that the travails of a native American family in some back
wood reservation don't have anyhting to do with you, I would invite you to think
again... have you ever been short of money and resources, and needed some sort 
aid that only currency can procure? If you have had the great good fortune to  
never be in that position, have you ever had a friend or family member that    
has? As much as being an issue of the disenfranchisement of native American    
people, I see this to be an issue of what it is like to be poor in America.    
        If you wonder why I am posting this to a metaphysically related echo/  
newsgroup, I do so because this is one of the many communities in which I live,
and, all differences aside, I feel that regardless of whether you are shamanic,
ceremonialist, masonic, wiccan, christian mystic or any other stripe or flavor 
of mage, you are all part of the same current. These two people are part of that
very same current, being heir to a tradition rich and full of the life of this 
land. They are of us. 
        The following is a couple of posts on this subject, verbatim from usenet
alt.native, headers and all. Please pass the word.                              

        Dionysia

(alt.native posts begin here)

Xref: ryptyde alt.native:659 alt.activism:8885 misc.legal:4352
From: rjp1@cbnewsc.cb.att.com (be here now)
Newsgroups: alt.native,alt.activism,misc.legal
Subject: Re: Legal assistance required
Date: 10 Apr 92 22:38:14 GMT
.mko.dec.com>

)>Your help is needed.
)> 
)>Perhaps you've read in the Lakota Times, the story on Tony Rios out of Rapid 
)>City, SD.  Tony is a minor who was convicted of 1st degree manslaughter on
)>Feb 3rd, 1992.  He pleaded innocent by reason of self-defence.  Later he was

)Thanks for your note. I did read this in the Lakota Times but I couldn't 
)really understand what happened. Was Tony attacked and trying to defend
)himself?
)
)Sam

From what I understand and remember, yes.  Tony, who is Indian and was
16 or 17 (*See note below) at the time of the incident, was outside a storefront 
in downtown Rapid City. (I'm not sure if it was a storefront, as I no longer
have the Lakota Times issue with the complete story.)  Anyway, there was
an older white man there who began to taunt and provoke Tony by saying
things about him and some woman they both knew.  Well, it got heated and
the man grabbed Tony's hand (or fingers) and began to hurt him.  One thing
led to another and Tony ended up stabbing the guy.

Tony was then placed in solitary confinement.  He saw nobody for several
months, even his mother was not allowed to see him.  He also tried to
commit suicide 7 times while awaiting trial.


rj pietkivitch       |  "Moon, my long lost friend, is smiling from above."
rjp1@ihburn.att.com  |   -- Genesis, Stagnation

        *NOTE: I have spoken with Thelma Rio... Tony was 14 at the time of the 
incident. Due to mishandling of the case in juvenile court, it was thrown out  
and tried in adult court. For the last year, Tony has been in an adult prison.

--                    
INTERNET:  dionysia@netlink.cts.com (Dionysia Marqueza)
UUCP:   ...!nosc!ryptyde!netlink!dionysia
NetLink Online Communications * Public Access in San Diego, CA (619) 435-6181
From: mayor@ic15.umeeng (Cam "You didn't see me!" Mayor)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Ouija
Date: 8 Apr 92 23:32:18 GMT
Reply-To: mayor@ic15.umeeng
Organization: Sun Microsystems

In article FNsuiB2w164w@Bogus.COM, phantom@Bogus.COM (The Internet Phantom) writes:
>ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:
>
>Oh, has anyone ever burned one of those puppies?  A freind of mine did, and it
>screamed...   Wierd..  Why did it do that?
>

  Undoubtedly it was the water trapped in the wood, escaping through a small
channel.  This is not unlike a teapot, or burning wet wood.

---
--------------------------------------------------------------------
------"What? You mean burning purple urine isn't normal?!?"---------
----------- email: mayor@eeserv.ee.umanitoba.ca --------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.magick
From: dwatson@lookout.uswest.com (Darryl D. Watson)
Newsgroups: alt.magick
Subject: Re: Money for Magick?
Date: 14 Apr 92 15:05:03 GMT
Organization: US WEST Communications

In article <NFi5iB3w164w@netlink.cts.com>, misha@netlink.cts.com (Michael Glosson) writes:
> > is one reason. because I don't like hierarchies. because I don't like oaths
>  
> Wait a sec...you don't like Hierarchies?  Then how did you become an
> expert on self proclaimed expert on Enochian (which is All Hierarchies)?
> ...you don't like Oaths?  Then how can you undertake any magical operation
> over any long term, especially since all magical oaths are basically a
> binding of the magician to the fulfillment of a specific goal?
>  
I am doing long-term magick, and I haven't taken any oaths...
Why is there a perception that oaths MUST be taken to do 
high magick, or magick over a long period of time?

An oath, IMO, curtails the Free Will of the Magician.