HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: aberson@enh.nist.gov
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: RE: Re: Gay Money and marriages in PA
Date: 14 Aug 92 22:25:43 GMT
Organization: NIST

In a previous article, michael@resonex.com (Michael Bryan) wrote:
>Young, perhaps.  Innocent --- not anymore!  :-) But at the time you
>would have been doing that, I *was* an innocent young boy, age still
>in the single digits, only beginning to have my first hints of
>sexuality.  Interestingly enough, my mother's name was Anita Bryan
>(no "t"), which helped to make me acutely aware of all the things going
>on in Dade County...

On a side note, look for Anita's legacy to be lost forever later this year when
Miami Beach passes a gay rights ordinance.  Also in Florida, Sharon McCracken,
lesbian aids-activist, received her license yesterday to be a foster parent.
She is the first out queer to receive such a license, and this move spells
the beginning of the end of the state's anti-gay adoption law.  McCracken wants
to share her home with children with HIV.

       Sim Aberson   Ft. Lauderdale, FL   aberson%3328.span@sdsc.edu
"It's always Beach Party Barbie, or Malibu Barbie....  That shit does not
prepare you for the true horror of a real woman's life.  Where is Single,
Abused, Trailer-Park Barbie?"             - Roseanne Arnold
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: norris@infonode.ingr.com (Jeff Norris)
Subject: Re: redefining masculinity
Organization: Intergraph Corporation, Huntsville, AL.
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 02:43:20 GMT

roger@quantime.co.uk (Roger Phillips) writes:

>In article <2a913ae1@ThreeL.co.uk>,
>jf@threel.co.uk (John Fisher) writes:
>> Nearly everyone's dissatisfied with the voice they hear on
>> recordings.  That's because the voice they *think* they have
>> they usually hear through about two inches of head. 

>Oh, no, not me!  I *never* talk with my mouth full.

Full?? with only *two* inches?  Have you tried mouth stretching exercises?

-jeff
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Subject: Re: Gay Homophobia & Allan Williams
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 92 08:52:00 GMT


In article <1992Aug23.031424.17600@microsoft.com>
bobsarv@microsoft.com (Bob Sarver) writes:

>>It's *Alan*.  Not "Allen," not "Allan."

>Then change your name.  It's spelled wrong.

That about sums you up, doesn't it?

-- 
Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin
Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson
NeXTmail w/attachments: anderson@yak.macc.wisc.edu  Bitnet: anderson@wiscmacc
Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888
From: adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: redefining masculinity
Date: 16 Aug 1992 21:27:22 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: mizar.usc.edu

In article <1992Aug17.011417.1190@cis.ohio-state.edu> 
amz@iguana.cis.ohio-state.edu (Arnold M Zwicky) writes:

[...]
> but what i really wanted to talk about, before all this everyday
> domestic physicality got hold of my imagination and my keyboard,
> was m.dean's admissions about his internalized homophobia.
>
> we all have some.  you can't grow up in the world that surrounds us
> without developing at least a few little grotty pockets of homohatred,
> which is to say, self-hatred.

I spent the better part of the afternoon on the phone with Jack
Hamilton (hi Jack!), and this issue arose wrt the "gay male voice".
Jack observed that my voice reminds him of someone else's, but he
can't quite place who that might be.  I replied that I certainly
don't have any idea, and besides, I hate the sound of my voice. I
mentioned having found a tape of myself recorded when I was 10 or
11 and being struck by what a faggotty voice I had even that early.
Why is it that I think that's a bad thing?  For it's clear that 
somewhere deep down inside I *do* think it's a bad thing.  In fact,
if there's one thing I could change about myself, I think it would
be my voice.  Yes, yes, I realize that I could go to a vocal
coach and work on it if I really wanted to change it that badly, 
but the mere fact that it sometimes occurs to me that I would
want to change it is worrisome.  But then if I were to change
the sound of my voice, I'd want to sound like John Kerr (the
dreamboat in the movie version of South Pacific), which is to
say faggotty but deep (sort of a male version of Joan Greenwood's
voice).

And I *still* haven't written my piece on camp.

Arne
From: idx009@cck.coventry.ac.uk (the Crisco Kid)
Subject: Re: Introduction
Organization: Eris's Restaurant
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 17:04:15 GMT

In article <1992Aug19.114705.24351@macc.wisc.edu> anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:
>I think Donald said a mouthful.  The main thought I get from
>it, and the reason I think it's so important, is this: he
>intends (by whatever means necessary) to project himself and
>his values (and those are a rapidly evolving set of ideas)
>into the future.  This is a far different thing from merely
>*letting* yourself get older, I think, though the
>distinction isn't important to all the likely outcomes.

Quite.

>So though Donald is what I would call young, a youth that
>sometimes shows up as naivete, he has said a very adult
>thing, something I see as very sophisticated and wise.

Actually, it sounded like a Coke advert song to me.

[Much sensible Jess deleted]
>In 16 years, soc.motss will be 25.  Steve will be 52.  I
>will be 73.  Nelson and Johh will be 36.  Trey will be 34 (I
>think).  Guessing, I think Donald will be about 37.  George
>Bush, with any luck, will be in Fundy Heaven and 16 years
>out of office.

And I shall be 48.  Is Steve really only four years older than
I?  Good Lord... I really am not getting old-farty rapidly
enough; maybe I should get my hairdresser to style me a bald
spot, start wearing a suit, and get a Proper Job.

>Here's a relevant thought-experiment: What were you doing in
>1976?

Much the same as I am now, but with less experience and more
arrogance.

				Kay


-- 
6'2", dark short hair, blue eyes, bisexual and horny as ....
Kay Dekker, Dept of Industrial Design, Coventry University, Coventry UK
37 Old Winnings Road, Keresley Village, Coventry   |B0 f t+ g++ k++! s+ e r p!
Phone: +44 203 838668 (work) +44 203 337865 (home) |Deflowerer-of-innocents
From: richard@Apple.COM (a flying squirrel)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: New queer terminology (was Re: The media, again)
Date: 18 Aug 92 05:04:18 GMT
Organization: Xiola Blue

Nelson Minar: "Is 'queer' postmodern?"

Jeff Norris: "Who cares?"

a flying squirrel: "oh."
-- 
a flying squirrel is: richard@apple.com  Apple Computer Inc.

i'm your girl            friend
i'm your squirrel        friend
i'm your round the world friend
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: norris@infonode.ingr.com (Jeff Norris)
Subject: Re: New queer terminology (was Re: The media, again)
Organization: Intergraph Corporation, Huntsville, AL.
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 19:28:27 GMT

nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar) recants:

>I apologize to Arnold and Jess and anyone else I might have insulted.

>Jess' summary is accurate. I don't agree with this point of view
>myself - I certainly don't think "all gay men" are so negative. I hope
>the past discussions I've had with people, in motss and in e-mail,
>reflect this.

>I will endeavour to be less clumsy.
>-- 
>                __
>nelson@reed.edu \/        It's a sky blue sky, the satellites are out tonight

I really should read all articles in a thread before I flame out.  I became 
slightly  indignant and age defensive toward an article that Nelson apologized
for even before I read it.  Must be getting senile, us old queers are like 
that.

Jeff - felling kinda silly.
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Subject: Re: gay liberation
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 10:02:19 GMT


In article <7=0m2-b.jfh@netcom.com> jfh@netcom.com (Jack
Hamilton) writes:

>In article <1992Aug17.080351.6841@reed.edu> nelson@reed.edu
>(Nelson Minar) writes:

>>When I was first realizing I was gay, I had the help of a well
>>intentioned but not perfect high school counselor. He gave me this
>>weird book to read titled "Straight talk about homosexuality for
>>straight readers". 

>The thought that anyone might have taken that book
>seriously is really frightening.

People in need take what they can get.  Whether it's better
than nothing is a judgment that has to be deferred until
such time as they have more information.  A start is better
than no start.

-- 
Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin
Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson
NeXTmail w/attachments: anderson@yak.macc.wisc.edu  Bitnet: anderson@wiscmacc
Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888
From: fjvwing@cs.vu.nl (FJ!!)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Freedom (was Re: Gay Homophobia)
Date: 22 Aug 92 14:25:56 GMT

[Jake writes good stuff]

Mom, can I marry him? For a while?
							FJ!!
From: wood@siemens.com. (Jim Wood)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Rob Bernardo
Date: 18 Aug 92 12:46:32 GMT

dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer) writes:

>In article <g95LPB3w164w@penn.Gwinnett.COM> bfbear@penn.Gwinnett.COM (Penn Collins) writes:
>>I too, just had to say how startled I was about Bob's death (I don't even
>>know if I knew him enough to use his first name).

>Hmmm, I have barely managed to read "Robert Bernardo" without flinching.
>Penn, there are many "Bob"s in this world, but Rob wasn't one of them.
>I wish he were here to start a chorus of joyous indignation at the
>mangling of his name!  That would be one sweet flame we'd all welcome.

Rob was most particular about his name.  He disliked "Bob."  He felt
that "Robert" was somewhat officious and pretentious.  It was interesting
to me when talking to his sister that she referred to him as "Robert,"
and I wondered if he was "Rob" to his friends and "Robert" to his family.

He was named for his father, Jack Robert Bernardo.

--
Jim Wood [jwood@siemens.siemens.com] (609) 734-3643
"Rise up on the wings of eagles, and two step among the stars.
 You are not forgotten.  Your smile will echo forever."
   -- Ryerson Schwark, to my friend Rob Bernardo.
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: buckmr@vccsouth28.its.rpi.edu (Ron Buckmire)
Subject: Re: Gay Republicans
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 02:31:21 GMT

IO81409@MAINE.MAINE.EDU (Ailsa N.T. Murphy) writes:

>well, i've considered registering republican, although i've
>never done it.  you see, i don't really care who the
>democrats run.  whoever runs, i'll vote for, as it sure as
>HELL beats the alternative.  but there is ALWAYS a
>republican that i do NOT want.  so voting in the republican
>primaries, imho, would be a Good Thing.
That's what I had my boyfriend do in California so that he could vote against
Dannemeyer and for Campbell. But it got very weird having a gay Republican
for a boyfriend so when he moved he registered Democrat. It's really scary to
have to tell your lover to vote FOR a Pete Wilson appointee [Seymour] just to
keep Hell-on-Wheels [Dannemeyer] out of office. Atleast Dannemeyer did lose.

-- 
RON BUCKMIRE
Association to Promote the Apotheosis of Mariah Carey
11 Colvin Circle, Troy, NY 12180-3735
uunet!rpi.edu!buckmr||buckmr@rpitsmts.bitnet||buckmr@rpi.edu||+1 518 276 8910
From: rdonahue@spdcc.com (Bob Donahue)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: news from colorado
Date: 20 Aug 92 15:53:47 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1992Aug20.155347.20358
Organization: insert anything here

gandalf@dworkin.ccs.northeastern.edu (Thomas M Farrell) writes:
>Hooray? 56% against to 38% for gets hooray?

>I'm solidly disgusted that it isn't more like 99% against to 1% for.
>We're talking about a measure that's clearly meant to prevent us from
>having basic rights thjat every other citizen has. 

>Like somebody on the net said, I'm tired of politely asking for my rights from
>someone who had no right to take them away in the first place. (My thanks to
>whoever said that, it's my feelings exactly.)

	It's worse than that.  The poll only shows people's feeings,
not their intent to vote.  On referendums like this people who normally
don't vote who are supportive aren't likely to go out and vote just
for this.  On the other hand people who are rabidly against it armore
likely to go cast a negative vote.

		If more than 1/3rd of all the "pro-GBLO*" side
	of this poll stay home, and the 38% all show out, we
	will lose.

Given the rampant apathy of the GBLO* community (I'm still hearing from
gay people in Corlorado and Oregon who have no idea what I mean when I
say "9" or "2", there is *no* surety whatsoever that this poll
no matter how encouraging will stand on election day.  In fact, given
the failure of Springfield Oregon to overturn the anti-GBLO* law
there, the roundabout that the Bank of America has done wrt the BSA,
and the Willie Hortoning of us in the 1992 campaign, we've just about
handed the Fundies victory on a platter.  (They are looking at all these things
as a way to say "See, this is what Amierka really wants".  Meanwhile
the virtual silence of the GBLO* community on these issues, save for
the handful of people willing to get out there and do something, is
deafening...)

	If you know someone in Oregon or Colorado, talk to them.
make SURE they do something, at the very least REGISTER and VOTE.
Even closeted people can vote.	 The ballot box doesn't care if you're
straight, gay, bisexual, political, apolitical, etc.  But if
we don't use it, they will.

If you can help even from far away - do so.  YOu can be CERTAIN that
the "Phobic U.S. Tour of the 50 States" will come to your 
home town soon.  When tyhat happens you'll want the rest of us to 
save your butt.  So startl ending a hand now.  No matter how
"out" you are or aren't if you put your mind to it you can
find SOME way to help.  DO IT...  Youi'll be happy you did.
Not nearby?  Wirte a check!  (I'm sure that closeted people could
get $$$ in anonymously, even by sending cash or thru someone you trust.
I'm sure therre are plenty of folks here who live in CO and OR who would 
be happy to drop off anonymous donations for you.)

	If we lose here, it will probably cost us 20 years.

BBC
From: heath@athena.cs.uga.edu (Terrance Heath)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: GRANDPA WALTON: Is he gay?  Help please....
Date: 20 Aug 92 15:56:30 GMT
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens

In article <1992Aug19.160716.701@ecst.csuchico.edu> dgwelton@ecst.csuchico.edu (David G. Welton) writes:
>
>In a speech a few days ago Bush said:
> 
>[He'd like] "to make American families a lot more like the Walton's
> and less like the Simpson's."
> 
>Well I seem to recall that the actor Will Geer, who played Grandpa
>Zeb Walton, has come out and proclaimed he is gay. Is this fact
>or urban legend?
> 
>I'm writing an article about the Convention and would love to
>be able to add this little tidbit...if I can substantiate it.
> 
>Can you help?
> 
>

I knew staying home on the weekends and catching up on my reading
would pay off in the end!   :-(

According to _The Trouble with Harry Hay_, Hay's biography, Will Geer
was (at the very least) not exactly straight.  He was, for a few years
I think, Harry Hay's lover.

Geer later went on to marry a woman, and give the appearance of
het-dom. When he died, Hay attended his funeral and was heard to
remark, in the presence of Geer's widow, "I had him first".

Mrs. Geer, without missing a beat, responded "Yes, but I had him
longest."

Actually, now that I think about it, Bush might well prefer such a
family, in which everyone at least pretended to be straight.


-- 
"Black men loving black men is THE revolutionary act!"
			-Joseph Beam_
Terrance Heath 
heath@athena.cs.uga.edu
From: chloupek@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Too straight looking to be gay??? (was re: UNGAY GAY)
Date: 14 Aug 92 13:52:56 EDT

In article <1992Aug13.193123.12390@ads.com>, henry@ADS.COM (Henry Mensch) writes:
> chloupek@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu wrote: 
> ->I have heard more biased statements from "masculine" men directed toward
> ->those they perceive as effeminate or "queeny", then I have heard going the
> ->other way.  Any bias in the gay community seems to be in favor of the masculine 
> ->stereotype.
> 
> apparently there is, at least from UNGAY GAYs.
> 
> i know there are *lots* of gay men who shy away from other gay men with
> secondary sex characteristics ... ("i mean, OOH, his back is so hairy.
> gross!")  i suspect you are travelling in fairly homogenous social
> circles ... where these differences might not be so evident.
> 
There are also *lots* of gay men who are attracted to their opposite type. 
All I was saying is that my friends who are (or consider themselves to be) more
"masculine" seem to utter more *comments*, then those of my friends who are
more "sensitive"  (Terrible terminology, I agree, please don't flame me for
that, although if someone wants to suggest alternate terms?).  My circle of
friends does include a variety of people, BTW.  


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Frank R. Chloupek 
CHLOUPEK@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu 
Department of Physics -- *The* Ohio State University
(Not just a Ohio State University) 

"Einstein on the Beach            |        Army of Lovers
 Science out of reach             |
 Atoms sing along                 |      "The Particle Song"
 To Einstein on the beach"        |
      
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: mdrayton@sr.hp.com (Mike Drayton)
Subject: Re: a queer card from the state of ohio
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Santa Clara Division
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1.1 PL5
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 23:55:24 GMT

Arnold M Zwicky (amz@cis.ohio-state.edu) wrote:
> ... 
> so now i have a queer card, a *laminated* queer card even ...
----------------
I've been wanting to ask about this for a while now, every time
there's a reference to queer cards getting issued, revoked,
renewed, upgraded, transferred, or suspended.

Back around 1973, I was working in a factory in Grinnell, Iowa, with a
guy who had lived for a short time in Los Angeles.  He told me that,
"Out there, queering's legal.  They got these little yellow cards, and
if they show you that card, you can't hit 'em."  That's all I heard,
and I'm wondering, was there an actual "queer card"?

Mike Drayton
mdrayton@sr.hp.com  (Hewlett-Packard Co., Santa Rosa, CA)
Newsgroups: soc.motss,ba.motss
From: twpierce@amhux1.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: Jeans (was Re: Rob Bernardo)
Organization: Amherst College, Amherst MA
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 06:24:08 GMT

In article <2-!nahj.jfh@netcom.com> jfh@netcom.com (Jack Hamilton) writes:

>I don't remember which is which now, although the brands we discussed were
>Levi's, Wrangler, and Lee's.  I do remember that we preferred different
>brands, but I'm not in any of the cowboy categories at all. 

I remember a thread in which he mentioned that Wranglers are -- I
believe -- an excellent rodeo jean, as they are among the more durable
brands.  This conversation stuck out in my mind because being a city
boy, I have always regarded Wranglers to be a poor man's designer
jean, and Rob, for all that I disagreed with him, always seemed to
have better taste than that.

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / "I don't know how much support NAMBLA
\  / twpierce@amherst.edu      /  has in the gay community."
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) /   -- Clayton Cramer, August 1992
From: adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: redefining masculinity
Date: 16 Aug 1992 23:32:22 -0700
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: mizar.usc.edu

In article <1992Aug17.045840.29962@wam.umd.edu> 
jns@wam.umd.edu (J. N. Shaumeyer) writes:
> arne adolphson (adolphso@mizar.usc.edu) *forces*
> me to barge in with an aside about his voice:
 
[...]
> > if there's one thing I could change about myself, I think it would
> > be my voice.  ....
>
> Don't you *dare*.

<Blush>  

How sweet of you.  But then what would *you* know about being
disatisfied with one's voice, Silver Tonsils?  <Bats eyelashes> 

Don't you think I'd sound, um, nicer, if my voice were lower 
and huskier?

> > And I *still* haven't written my piece on camp.
>
> That's okay--I'm still working on smells.

I can't wait!

Arne

Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: norris@infonode.ingr.com (Jeff Norris)
Subject: Re: mandatory service (was Re: Metzenbaum introduces Senate bill to end military ban)
Organization: Intergraph Corporation, Huntsville, AL.
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 15:50:53 GMT

shore@dinah.tc.cornell.edu (Melinda Shore) writes:

>In article <1992Aug13.042650.7512@news.ysu.edu>, ae642@yfn.ysu.edu (Kelley Miller) writes: 
>> Say it was your wife, with young children at home, or your 18 year-old 
>> daughter.  Say they pulled a lower number than you, and got called before
>> you or your 18 year old son.  Is it OK with you then?

>AAAAAAAGH!!!!  AAAAAGH!!!  AAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!

QUICK!  MEDIC... One of our troops is going into an Indignant Seizure...
and will *Somebody* get that clueless simpleton out of our way!!!
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: robertl@luciano.Stanford.EDU (Robert Lodenkamper)
Subject: Re: Utopia (was Re: mandatory service)
Organization: Stanford University
	<1992Aug12.033954.28682@reed.edu>
	<ROBERTL.92Aug11210033@luciano.Stanford.EDU>
	<1992Aug12.122024.26409@macc.wisc.edu>
	<ROBERTL.92Aug13022443@luciano.Stanford.EDU>
	<joelp.713747318@cs.man.ac.uk>
Date: 13 Aug 92 19:40:38

In article <joelp.713747318@cs.man.ac.uk> joelp@cs.man.ac.uk (Joel Parthemore || Pharos Project) writes:

   robertl@luciano.Stanford.EDU (Robert Lodenkamper) writes:

   >In article <1992Aug12.122024.26409@macc.wisc.edu>
    anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes: 

   >   Utopia is so simple, if you work at it!  :-) It's all a
   >   matter of giving and getting; our trouble is we want to do
   >   the getting without doing the giving.  Sorry, can't work
   >   that way, gotta give, and more than most people think.

   >My purpose wasn't just to snipe at Jess's proposal --- even though
   >it is, like all utopias, a tempting target.

   >Instead I want to emphasize that Jess's utopia, the communist
   >utopia, the libertarian utopia, the socialist utopia, the
   >benevolent dictator utopia and any others I've forgotten all fail
   >for the same reason --- they ignore human nature.

   >It is necessary to do more than just make sure the budget balances
   >for a utopian vision to become real --- the utopian vision must
   >not ignore what appear to be fundamental truths about human
   >nature.

   Well, there are a *few* of us who stubbornly refuse to believe that
   human nature includes greediness or hatred or prejudice.  All of
   these are traits we learn, and they become ways by which we're
   separated from ourselves.

I take no position on the nature/nurture question, since I don't
believe the contradictory and confusing evidence supports a definite
conclusion.  Hence my waffling with "appear".  You may be right.  I
certainly hope so.

   (I brought up this point at an InterVarsity meeting once, which I
   attended just for fun, and managed to get one girl visibly upset.
   She seemed determined to believe that human nature was Evil.)

She sounds like more of a cynic than myself.  Human nature in general
is a bizarre mix of good and evil.  Individual people aren't perfectly
consistent, and their average behavior varies greatly from person to
person.  

   IMHO, Utopias are so very difficult for the very reason that they
   are so simple....  (And of course, there is our undiminished
   determination to take any revelation we receive and re-create it in
   our own image....)

   Hey, I'm an unabashed idealist.

No problem.  I'm a recovering misanthrope and cynic.

- Bob
Newsgroups: soc.motss