From: news@mont.cs.missouri.edu
Subject: Re: Living in a State of Siege
Organization: University of Missouri
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 92 14:56:03 CST

In article <1992Dec31.060738.7301@netcom.com>
payner@netcom.com (Rich Payne) writes:
 
 (about my assertion that everyone has some measure of self-determination)
 
>Children do not. And if you argue from the biological standpoint, there
>is no such thing as self-determination. Heck, if you argue from the
>social "brainwashing" standpoint, most have no choice either. Unless
>they recieve the -proper- brainwashing.
 
Whether or not we were socialized or 'bred' for the tendency to be violent,
that certainly doesn't mean that there is nothing that a person can do
to 'overcome' this conditioning. No choice? Hardly. You make choices
everyday. Biological *and* social theories allow for evolution (obviously).
 
>It's really strange how enviornmental factors are claimed to be -major-
>limiting factors in womens lives, but it is unforgivable heresay to
>consider enviornmental factors when men are involved.
 
Could you come up with a few good examples? Assertion is not proof.
 
>>I'm sorry if I'm just not co-dependent enough to make (or accept) lame
>>excuses like "mommy made me do it".
 
>Women are not innocent, and they are not guilty, but there are clearly
>-part- of the situation. Perhaps if women took responsibility for raising
>their children as non-violent there would be less.
 
Who do you *know* that raises their children to be violent? Avoid them!!!!
Honestly, Rich, what do you suggest? Taking Junior out of Little League?
Leave him home the next time I knock off a bank or rob an old lady? ;) By
most estimates a child develops a sense of right and wrong by age seven.
Would it be too much to ask a grown person (man or woman) who is well past
the age of seven (like maybe 18?) to take responsibility for their own actions?
 
>>>>If you're not part of the cure, you're part of the problem. [ ]
>>Maybe you would prefer "if you're part of the problem, blame mommy"?
 
>Naaa, safer and perfectly PC to blame daddy exclusively. How is it that
>you decry taking responsibility in the same post in which you deny all
>responsibilty?
 
Show me where I denied *all* responsibility. At this point I take
responsibility for both *my* actions *and* the actions of my minor children.
If my children get into trouble when they are adults, I will still love and
support them. Will I take personal responsibilty for *their* actions as adults?
No. I have never raped, murdered, or robbed and I teach my children that these
are not acceptable behaviors. If my son (or daughter) robs a bank one day, as a
adult, he will go to jail, because *he* will have committed the crime.
 
How far back do we take this? If my child goes wrong because I was a 'bad'
mother, can I blame *my* parents? Can they blame their parents? How many
generations do we go back to find the original responsibilty? Isn't
it just a little *easier* for each of us to stop whining and take
responsibilty for ourselves? Do this make too much sense to be understandable?
 
It's getting a little cliche' to invoke the demon PC when what little logic
you seem to have fails. Blame it on mommy *or* PC, huh? Pretty sad.
Diane
Xref: sparky alt.feminism:6356 soc.men:21605 soc.women:21778