From: jj@alice.att.com (jj, clueless old white boy)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: Perceptions, Realities, Perceptions
Date: 28 Aug 92 15:36:08 GMT
Reply-To: jj@alice.UUCP (jj, clueless old white boy)
Organization: NJ State Home for Bewildered Terminals

In article <1992Aug27.202359.13231@nynexst.com> clare@nynexst.com (Clare Chu) writes:
>In article <23556@alice.att.com> jj@alice.UUCP (jj, curmudgeonly clueless old white boy) writes:
>>I do?  Only in your dreams.
>  Sorry, JJ, you don't appear in my dreams.  
Whew, at least I'm not in your nightmares.

>  You mean they actually beat you up if you didn't sit in the
>  back of the bus? 
Well, actually, it was for being within 100 feet of them,
and on the bus.  There was no pressure to move to the back,
right out the door would have been more acceptable.
A few might have chosen the window if they thought they
could get away with it.

>  that environment.  I bet the Blacks were lucky because
>  at least they had a sign and a warning to go to the back
>  of the bus, thus avoiding getting beat up.
Yeah, sure they felt lucky. SURE.  Somehow, I hope you're
being sarcastic.  I certainly am when I agree with you.
Why should they have to act like sub-humans because of some
(*)&(*^ sign, or the double-bleeped law that went along with it?

>>feet, and fortunately my pf's were faster than theirs, I took
>>some damage, but they didn't get hands on me to keep me
>>around) for being white on Market Street, but then again,

>  Apparently in that town.  How did it feel to be treated as
>  a nonperson and an object of hate?
Well, I hope you detect a wee bit of anger....


>  Are you going to help her get out of there too?
She wants to stay there.  All her friends (at least
all who are still alive) live there, her church is
there, her family is there, and frankly, she's not
doing badly, given that she's on a fixed income in a
DEPRESSED economy.  There, at least, she can take care
of herself, and I wouldn't want THAT to change, she
very much cares about being able to take care of herself.


>  What is Market Street?  Is it like the center of town
>  and only petty elites get to go there?
Market St. is in another town, and there it's a **black**
area.   There I WAS chased for being white.  My experience
in running away was quite useful there, thank you.

>  Sounds like these management kids are really insecure
>  if they don't want to allow anyone else to take the
>  SAT.  I wonder what they would have done to me for
>  breaking all the curves.  I'm so lucky that I didn't
>  live in that town.  Luckily my parents probably couldn't
>  have found any jobs in that town except for laundry,
>  so that we didn't end up living there.
Well, I don't know what your family did for a living,
but you're probably right. (Yes, we DID have a chinese
laundry. REALLY.  Sigh.)  They wouldn't have liked you,
most likely, at all, either.  No doubt about it.  Unless
they thought your daddy had lots of money, or would make
it.  Greed figures strongly here, I think.  No, I wouldn't
ever suggest you live there.  I don't, and I have
an intense motivation to never go back to live there.

If you threatened (you,  a gurrrlllll <gasp :-< ) their chance
at being elite, they would have wasted no time in trying
to beat you down somehow, I'm sure.  Quite.
Sorry, but I have faith in those people.

>  Boy, these counselors are even worse.  Seems like all
>  these terrible things happened to you.  Did it happen
>  to any of your brothers and sisters also?  Sounds like
What brothers and sisters?  No, I didn't have any,
but yes, they happened to lots of other people. I'm
hardly unique in that respect, except that I'm out
and most of them didn't survive.  Yes, I resent that
most of them literally didn't survive.  In that, it was
a lot like a ghetto.

>  you weren't white, they might have treated you better
>  because they'd be afraid of discrimination laws.  But
No, there were no such laws, then.  You forget, I'm OLD.
(*relatively speaking, that is*)  In any case, I'm sure
they would have just lied their way around it.  Sorry,
but I can't really say being a minority would be any better,
and it would probably be even worse if you weren't a
Dr. or Lawyer type.  Or perhaps just different, in some
sad, disgusting way.

>  Your experience in your mill-town is definitely worse
>  than mine.  I grew up in a mostly Hispanic town and
>  people treated us pretty nicely.
Good.  I wouldn't wish it on anyone, and it's much worse in
the ghetto, I know for a fact.

>  epithets on our car, piss on our lawn, beat up my
>  brother, and tell us to get out of their country).
Gah.  Takes all kinds. Somebody TAKE their kind, please?
Far away? Sigh.

>  All the prejudiced ones moved out already.
Good riddance, I think.  Moved, hopefully, to 
South Africa?

>  for me doing this Countess role because "I don't look
>  like a Countess"---(reason, I'm not of European descent).
Agreed.  I doubt if I could pull it off, though, wrong
reflexes to "ungracious" stuff.

>  was very unfair.  But I suspect those people could care
>  less about fair play.
You got that very much right.  You note that I haven't
suggested any where that they'd treat a "non-professional"
minority any better.  I'm very sure they wouldn't, very,
very sure indeed.

>  We would love to hear some coping strategies.  What did
>  you do when these people attacked you?  Did you fight back
>  to defend your honor?  Did you ignore their taunts or
>  gave back word for word?  Did you cope by studying harder
>  so you can break the curve and basically kept quiet?
Well, I don't mean coping with the people that attacked me. 
When somebody attacks you, personally I suggest immediate, rapid, and
sustained flight to somewhere safe, with no quarter offered until
you get there.  I was thinking of the latter part of my life, where the
class struggle, as it were, is different, i.e. discounting,
shading reviews on expectations, and such.  That is more
easily dealt with in some senses.  As the latest incident
in florida shows, remaining alive is sometimes the first
priority, and, face it, it has to be.  If you have to
smile, bow, and REMEMBER who did it.  Learn the faces,
learn the names, and remember the INDIVIDUALS.
I don't suggest getting even, but DO remember.  Some day, they
may just want your help, or need it.  Note that I say
"individuals" because while society might be (and is)
both racist and sexist, it's individual who make it that
way, and individuals who can unmake it.  We can't change
society, but we can surely work on individuals.

>  you came from.  It might have been better if you were a
>  visible minority, because then at least, your family would
>  not have been allowed to live in that town and get in contact
>  with those petty elites.  
It's possible, but who knows?  I think it would have just
offered different excuses.

>  What can we do about it but move out?  I mean seriously.
>  How can we go into that town and change anything?  They'd
>  probably beat all of us up.  I really admire your courage
Hey! I am bloody well NOT suggesting anyone go there, at least
not in less than batallion force :-)
>  to stand up to those folks, but I personally am too chicken
>  to go to that town and try and change things.  I guess you've
You're not chicken, you're smart.  I don't think heading into the
teeth of armed bigots (they carry guns now, sigh) is smart.
Not unless you're a cop or a soldier and are doing it knowing
well just what and how you're doing, and having taken the
job willingly, and the situation is such that it's necessary.

>  been through so much more than I ever have, and that indeed
>  makes you tougher.
Tougher? Duh?  Angrier, perhaps.  Then again, perhaps not.
I don't think I'm particularly tough, more like obstinate.
Perhaps "tough" carries the wrong connotation to me.

>  Funny, I wish I was born in the upper middle class.  Then
(so do I)  No smiley.
(about being white)
>  I can now see that for some people, it really is
>  a disadvantage.
No, not a disadvantage, just different.  I'm very sure (and
perhaps Pak could confirm it) that if I were, say, Chinese,
or Korean, they'd have have used that as an excuse.  The key here is,
I think, that what was wanted was an excuse, any excuse.

And those who stick out provide it.  In my case,
to not stick out would have meant that I do poorly
in school, and there was no *(&^(* way I was going to do that.
Not with my way OUT. NO *(&^*(& way.

>  really tough being white sometimes.  I'm glad you're brave
Make that "human".  No need to draw any racial boundaries
around that statement.

>  all, you've suffered more than any of us can imagine.  At
No, I think some of you can imagine a lot more.  Like, perhaps
the fellow I had for a student this summer, who was a boat
person.  I couldn't possibly compare my life to his in post-"war"
Saigon and emigration.  Nobody in their right mind would want
to experience it willingly, too, except in desparation.

>  I hope we can offer you some solace and from now on I'll really
>  listen with open ears to what you're saying.
Well, um, I don't so much want "comfort", I'd just like to stop
seeing people hurt, and that goes for people, not for any
particular race.  What really tilts me sometimes in this newsgroup
is that articulate people who seem self-aware sometimes choose
to enforce boundaries and classes willingly, and it seems to me
(perhaps foolishly) that they just oughta know better.

Sigh.
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