HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.allmusic
Date:         Thu, 15 Oct 1992 18:29:44 EDT
From:         Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: classical training,improv,heart
              15 Oct 1992 21:57:37 GMT from <ujwb@UXA.ECN.BGU.ED U>

On Thu, 15 Oct 1992 21:57:37 GMT Jeff Beer said:
>A lot of new points came up in this debate, including that of
>creativity, that improvisation is not more creative.
>
>As is always the case, it depends on definitions, and many times when
>you get to the crux, things which seem so different are not.
>
>For example, improvisation IS more creative, in the sense that it
>creates something that has never been created before.

Yes, in a sense.  But then--when I play a classical piece, I've never played
it that way before and probably never will again (at least, the way I play
I hope I never play it that way again :-); I won't if I'm doing my job right.
It is more accurate to suggest that the improviser is creating a different set
somethings-that-have-never-been-created-before, than the classical performer.

>However, when you play a written out classical piece, when it is the
>strongest, you have the feeling that it is just being created, that it
>is a unique moment.  Just because it is improvised, doesn't mean it has
>the feeling of uniqueness.
>
>There are some other things which I want to stress, namely that the
>improviser has to be ready for musical situations that are NOT planned,
>to a much wider degree than music that is completely written out.
>As this dynamic is played out, it creates the situation in which many
>things can happen which are not possible if the music is all written
>out.
>
Yes, but--.   Remember that the most important job--and hardest--is listening
to what the others around you are doing (& how they are doing it).  Both
improviser and score-reader are equally involved in this; a classical ensemble
with no feel of ensemble play sounds like shit, believe me.
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Date:         Wed, 7 Oct 1992 14:21:51 EDT
From:         RTURNBUL@TOROVM1.VNET.IBM.COM
Subject:      SRV

I've seen clips of Stevie Ray's show at the El Mocambo and it's pretty
phenomenal. I believe this show was sometime after _Texas Flood_ but before
he released _Couldn't Stand The Weather_.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I saw this guy live 4 times. Would've gone
5 if the fates had been kinder...

First time - He opened for Dire Straits at the Montreal Forum (Stevie Ray and
Mark Knopfler in the same building!). This was just before the release of
_Soul To Soul_. Absolutely blew the crowd out of their seats..."Voodoo Chile"
left me in a state of bewilderment.

The second time was at an outdoor festival in Jarry Park. This was the first
show he played after his Dad passed away a few days earlier. He finished up
the show alone onstage with his guitar...He played this beautiful quiet blues
number that was filled with emotion. Now this is what Leonard was talking
about!!! When he finished, the rest of his band came out and hugged him as he
broke into tears.

The last time I saw him was here in Toronto with Jeff Beck opening. He was
on fire that night! Not the greatest venue in the world to see him (the
cavernous SkyDome), but he almost made it seem like a little smoky club.
Beck joined him onstage for an encore as they played "Goin' Down". Whoa!

While I'm yammering on here, I just wanted to mention that his version of
"Little Wing" from _The Sky Is Crying_ is one of the greatest pieces of music
I've ever heard. He combines every single one of his influences into one song
(Hendrix, blues, jazz, etc.). And this was an outtake!!!!!!!!

Sigh...

Bob T
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Date:         Mon, 12 Oct 1992 23:22:42 PDT
From:         Mike Masuda <MASUDA@SJSUVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: for your ears only
              12 Oct 1992 23:00:03 -0700 from <twillia@EIS.CALSTATE.EDU>

Tim Williams sed:

>I love music. I don't much care for marxism.

in reply to a long idea I had about musical styles being cyclic.
A Musical samsara.
The wheel rolls on in a progressive manner, not a destructive one.
It borrows from the past in carving a path into the future.
I just made an observation, that's all.
I like predicting what kind of music will be evolving in the next year.
It's my nature as a physicist to predict the motion of things.

I love music also.  It is a most elegant manner of communicating
emotions and intangible ideas.
I dig Marxism--where would we be without their silly brand of humor?
(insert slap on forehead here, followed by a nudge on my shoulder and
the crack, "oh please, my eyes can't roll far back enough for that pun.")

Just doing my part in not resorting to "I like so-and-so" or
"I hate so-and-so" garbaj that has been flooding the mailchute.
That gets really old fast.

Like someone said, "WHERE'S ALL THE CREATIVITY ON THIS LIST?"
If you're going to say something about my opinions or hypotheses,
make it worthwhile for me and others to read.
I liked your previous post a lot better--It made me a little bit
more knowledgeable on the difference betw performers and composers--
something I carelessly overlooked. Thanks for that, Tim.

Marxist?  Well, I was tested in high school for political bent--and I came
up far on the left side.  It's my nature to be a mover and a shaker.
A passive one, but a mover and a shaker nonetheless.
Nothing wrong with looking at music from a different angle.
Music theory books do that all the time.
Nothing Marxist about standing on your desk to see things from a
different perspective, is there?  I hope not!
Maybe my perspective is wrong--as it probably is for you, Tim.
We're all different.

Just don't go around slandering my observations with a political name
associated with negative American connotations.
(try to say that 10 times fast...)        :)

 3
M
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Date:         Sun, 11 Oct 1992 21:45:15 EDT
From:         "Can I borrow your towel for a sec,
              my car hit a water buffalo?" <gmgettie@THAMA1.APGEA.ARMY.MIL>
Subject:      re: Vinyl

From:         Mike Karolchik <MIKE%WVNVM.BITNET@AMERICAN.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Vinyl

>>Like you had a choice. Vinyl is a thing of the past and this makes me sad. I
>>hate the fact that if I want any musical recording, I *have* to buy a CD. I
                                 ^^^^
                                  I guess I should've put the word 'new' here.

>>I still try to find stuff on vinyl. Some record stores have a special
>>"cut-out,
>>we bought too much of this crap a few years ago" bin, but I rarely see
>>anything even remotely worthwhile.

>>Bring back the vinyl; it just ain't the same without it.

>I sort've hate to divulge a secret, but you'd do well to check out
>your better used-record stores. Nowdays many people are in a panic
>dumping their vinyl because they figure it will have no value tomorrow.
>With the glut of used stuff available to buy, record stores can afford
>to be picky and they are buying very good quality/condition vinyl for
>low prices. The result is that you can find some very good albums for
>cheap at the used record places. Last time I went record shopping in
>Pittsburgh I was practically alone in the vinyl  while a lot of people
>were crowded in the CD section. I found some wonderful albums in mint
>condition at only $3.00 apiece. I got some original Zappa releases,
>for example, that replace my worn copies and are worth $3.00 for the
>covers/liner notes alone (IMHO).

I have looked in these types of stores. In fact, here in Baltimore we have
this chain of stores called "Record and Tape Traders." They used to specialize
in used vinyl. They would also track down an album for you if they didn't
have it. Now, they are nothing more than a run-of-the-mill CD / Tape store.
They have *some* used CD's and Tapes at prices only a dollar or so lower than
new material and have *no* albums at all.

I was in another store recently that *did* have tons of used records, but
their prices were outrageous, certainly nothing for $3.

...so maybe I just live in the wrong part of the country.

Seeya,
Gary

"For a hill men would kill, why? they do not know.
 Suffered wounds test their pride.
 Men of five, still alive through the raging glow"
 Gone insane from the pain that they surely know
 For whom the bell tolls."
- Metallica
From: RTURNBUL@TOROVM1.VNET.IBM.COM
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.allmusic
Subject: (no subject given)
Date: 7 Oct 92 17:03:55 GMT
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SET ALLMUSIC NOACK
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Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 13:56:49 EDT
From:         Tim Johnson <ST402711@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Perfumed ambience

>I have worked with classically trained musicians, and have found
>that ... they don't know how to play from their heart ....
>Mike Masuda.

  Bzzzt!  wrong answer.

  To be fair, Mike corrects this a sentence or two later, saying
that they can play other people's music from the heart.

  Look, improvization is just a different sort of music.  It
is not necessarily more real, more emotional than playing
fully scored music.  In fact, if I were really in the mood
for a debate, I'd say that having the notes set down ahead
of time allows the performer to concentrate his full efforts
on the expression - playing from the heart - rather than having
to worry about where he or she will go next.

  I think that most people who take their classical music
seriously (as listeners) can attest that putting heart and
soul into music isn't a matter of improvising the notes.
There are good performers (and conductors) and bad ones.
There are those who can really coax all the music out of
the notes, and those who just play along.

  I'm sure the same must be true for improvisational musicians.
Perhaps the Beersky has something to add.

  As far as trained musicians and untrained musicians....I guess
it is my contention that the essence of the music - the part that
needs to be expressed - is something which a person has with or
without musical training.  The musical training only gives the person
the tools for expression.  Rather than sit the trained musician down
with the untrained musician - train the untrained musician.

  There was an interesting interview on the radio last night with
Yes.  They spoke about creating the album _Close to the Edge_.
Apparently, their primary songwriter (y'all will excuse me for
being unable to provide names) would come in with some musical
idea, which he would play for the band.  They would all groan
over the lack of technical competence and ability, but, since
the songwriter's attitude was "play it, fix it, or leave" they
would help him mold it technically into music.

  This goes back once again to the debate we held earlier.
There is technique, but that is not all there is to music.
There is the part that makes you go "wow, great!" the part
that is the expression.  And that exists - not independent of -
but distinct from the technical aspects of playing or composing.

  Improvisational playing allows certain kinds of expression
which, say, other forms might not.  Just as Beethoven needed
to change the form of the symphony to be able to express
himself.  But...one shouldn't make the mistake of supposing
that one form is all expression and another is all technique.
(As Mike seemed to be doing.)

                             -Tim
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From: Janne.Salmi@hut.fi (Janne Salmi)
Subject: Re: Top 5 Lead Vocalists!!!!!!
Organization: Helsinki Univ. of Tech., Finland
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 21:42:50 GMT


Tommy Funderburk    		Tata Vega
Philip Bailey			Siedah Garrett
Al Jarreau			Janis Siegel
Peter Cetera			Chaka Khan
Tom Bowes			Mariah Carey

- Janne
From: skovitz@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU (Sonia Kovitz)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.allmusic
Subject: Re: A slightly altered thread
Date: 16 Oct 92 16:35:12 GMT
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X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
              Hall" at Oct 16, 92 10:31 am

>
>      Oddly enough, one of my classes this week focused on Carnival as
> ritualized blasphemy (there is more here so just hold on).  The relevance
> of this is that originally carnival was a form of "organized" rebellion,
> where for a period of time all aspects and standards of and in a community
> were inverted.  Carnival provided a period of time to blow off steam and
> engage in practices normally taboo.  The practical side of this is that it
> a.) allows for the blowing off of steam and pent up aggressions at authority
> and b.) it helps further intergrate the community by reinforcing what should
> be done the rest of the year.

Just want to put in right here that Jews do the same thing at Purim--make fun
of the rabbi, wear weird clothes, make a lot of noise...  (of course Jews
always make a lot of noise :) and some of us always wear weird clothes too, eh
Rick?)

>      The point here is that carnival was originally sanctioned by the Church
> and other major social institutions and was therefore not really rebellion.
> Todays expressions of carnival are much the same.

It's true that an ORGANIZED rebellion is not a real rebellion by definition.
It's a safety valve but the teapot stays intact...

> learned their lesson in the sixties.  Anything that bears even the slightest
> resemblance to rebellion is now snatched up and made mainstream.

I agree with you on MTV, Madonna's underwear...

> rebellion is futile and will just become part of that
> which you wish to change.
>      Oh God, now I'm depressed.  Can anyone brighten my day?  Prove
> me wrong!
>

...BUT I'm not so sure that rebellion is futile.  Look at how much both music
and
culture has changed (DESPITE corporatization) in the last 25 years, as a result
(at least in good measure, if not completely) to MUSICAL rebellions... Elvis,
Chuck Berry, Alan Freed, Stones, and so on... Maybe the world is not SUCH a
wonderful place, but still it's a lot better than if we had stayed eternally in
the year 1954 with our starchy little smiles...  The musical rebellions that
were part of cracking loose the 50s and all they represented were REAL and not
organized tempests in teapots...  Just because people eventually get famous and
may (if they're lucky) make some bucks doesn't UNDO what was done as a real
deal...

Rather than simply "becoming part of what you wish to change," perhaps to some
degree they [in infamous they] are getting something from YOU and are also
changing...

I'm probably terribly naive

(just ask Carol--BTW, glad you're back--we've been mighty unsalacious lately)

"Rebel Without A Cause"
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Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 12:44:03 CDT
From:         Paul Heroy <HEROY@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Epic deput albums

On Thu, 8 Oct 1992 11:07:16 CDT Leonard Watkins said:
>On Thu, 8 Oct 1992 15:16:37 MEZ Paul Hosken said:
>> o Terence Trent D'Arby - *forgotten title*
>What happen to this legend in his own mind

The title was Introducing the Hardline According to Terence Trent D'Arby. He
released a second one a couple of years ago called Neither Flesh nor Fish.
It's a little bizarre at times, but overall I think it's innovative and good,
once you accept it on its own terms. It's something of a failed experiment in
some ways, but as someone once noted, a failed experiment is almost always
more interesting than another formulaic production. No idea what he's up to.

Paul Heroy
From: AD81095@UDLAPVMS.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.allmusic
Subject: Re: Mexican music
Date: 13 Oct 92 16:23:00 GMT
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X-Envelope-to: ALLMUSIC@AUVM.BITNET
X-VMS-To: IN%"ALLMUSIC@AUVM.BITNET"

SUBJECT:

SUBJECT:Huapangos

     Hi Michelle"  I can send you some huapangos veracruzanos with the real
violin sound of the Sierra Madre. I'm from veracruz, and the music its just
incredible happy. You have to listen to the huapangos of Veracruz.

     Hope you can listen this kind of music!

Hector Diaz
AD81095@UDLAPVMS
From: SCOTH@WMVM1.CC.WM.EDU (Scott Hammer)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.allmusic
Subject: Re: More Indigo Girls
Date: 13 Oct 92 17:23:44 GMT
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              12 Oct 1992 15:26:17 EDT from <JCMELO00@UKCC.UKY.EDU>

On Mon, 12 Oct 1992 15:26:17 EDT Julie Meloni said:
>About RITES..., well, yes it IS experimental, but the base is still that of
>two acoustic guitars (E's is a full-bodies Martin J-40M, and A's is a rebuilt
>1942 Martin O-18, if anyone is interested), with E playing lead and A strumming
>her heart out.  But you can't play the same music for the rest of your life,
What year is E's J-40M?

What fascinates me about the Indigo Girls is how neither of them has a par-
ticularly great voice (no flames yet -- hear me out) but the blend of their
two voices is stunning.  Similarly, neither of them is really a guitar hero,
but together, they produce a very full satisfying sound.

-Scott "I Really Like Them" Hammer
 College of William and Mary
From: bt979@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jeff Preston)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.allmusic
Subject: "n.n." asks a favor
Date: 8 Oct 1992 14:06:50 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bt979@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Jeff Preston)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


  For those of you who spend many hours scouring the used vinyl racks
(in places where there *are* such things -- sure aren't any in Mo'haid),
I would like to ask a favor. Should you happen to run across the EP
_Road Games_ by Allan Holdsworth, please contact me with the asking 
price and condition. No, I already have a copy, thanks... but many (MANY)
of the Atavachron folks do not, and it's really tough to find. Y'see,
this was the one and only recording Allan did for Warner Bros., as a
result of Eddie Van Halen's influence (Allan had no label, Ed was a big
fan). Eddie was to have co-produced this with Allan, but had to back up
some guy named Roth in an assult on the South American continent when
the studio time became available (or so the story goes). VH's producer,
Ted Templeman, got slated to fill in for Ed, but he wanted Allan to do
some really conventional things (or so the story goes), and Allan didn't
like that, so he refused to finish the project (that's why it's an EP,
silly). Much wrangling and ego-thrashing later, Allan was given the
master tapes to mix, WB released the results, and now that WB's vinyl is
long out of print, they won't part with the rights to _Road Games_ for 
love nor money. How petty. 
  So!  If you are no fan of prickish record companies, then join with
me in my noble cause to unite Holdsworth fans in 7 countries with this
6-tune rarity. You'll be glad you did, and your local used vinyl store
owner will respect you for it!  :)

  Thanks!

  Jeff ("n.n.")
-- 
| Jeff Preston - owner and moderator of | "We don't  get  many requests |
| the  Allan Holdsworth discussion list |  for recent history."  -- Mr. |
| *** To subscribe, send e-mail to: *** |  Atoz, from the '69 Star Trek |
| <atavachron@morekypr.morehead-st.edu> |  episode _All Our Yesterdays_ |
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Date:         Thu, 8 Oct 1992 07:16:17 CDT
From:         "Leonard Watkins" <ISTS024@UABDPO.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: female blues singers
              7 Oct 1992 23:17:43 GMT from <MICHAEL.WILLETT@OFFICE.WANG.COM>

On Wed, 7 Oct 1992 23:17:43 GMT 'Michael Willett' said:
>Another outstanding female blues singer is Rory Block.  She's
>got a fairly new CD out called "Mama's Blues."  She's also got
>a brand new one out that got a good review in the Boston Globe.
>Another top selling CD of hers is entitled "Turning Point."
>She's actually even more popular in the Netherlands than in the
>US.  She has a gold album there in Holland.

I can't believe we missed he Rory Block is and oustanding player as well
as singer....I'm a fan.....L.W.
speaking of overseas popularity the blues are much more popular there than
here as amatter of fact in Europe Johnny Shines has as much respect as
Muddy dose here......L.'can't wait to here the NEW SRV' W.
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Date:         Fri, 9 Oct 1992 18:56:38 EDT
From:         Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: loosing the fire

On Fri, 9 Oct 1992 10:11:43 CDT Leonard Watkins said:
>
>I don't want to start a debate here (honestly), but you just can't beat the

Come on--after the last 2 months you can type that with a straight face?  You
just did start a debate :-)

>sound of Analog. I know CD's are great for numerous reasons, but a good
>Turntable and quality vynyl just can't be beat, the sound is so much
>warmer i dreaded bying a cd player (probally because i have a Linn TT)
>but now i'm getting used to it.....L.W.

Disagree.  Can't stand vinyl snap, crackle, & pop.  Nor do I find it especially
warm, nor CDs especially cold.  10 gets you 1 that characterization of the 2
media wouldn't hold up in a double-blind listening test.
From: MAINT2@ERS.BITNET (Ken Koester)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.allmusic
Subject: Mix Tapes = EZ Listening
Date: 13 Oct 92 15:47:54 GMT
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As the title sez.  I hadn't heard the phrase "mix tapes" before; I made up tape
of my own covering the ever-growing pile of 45s (go ahead and date yourself--
tell us about the days when all you could afford to buy were 45s!) from bands/
albums where I really only wanted a couple of songs--hence, my "EZ Listening"
tapes.  They gradually broadened out to include other songs just for the hell
of it.  However, if I've recorded the whole album/CD, it probably didn't make
it to the mix.

Since I didn't go for a mix per se, the order is partly "mood", partly
chronological, and partly "let's put these bad boys together in *this* order &
see what it sounds like" :-)  Can't say which are the best I have; these 2 are
moderately representative.  Some of the titles my be approximations; you can
only write so much on a tape cassette, after all.  Where several songs in a
row are by the same group, only the first one is annotated.

EZ I: 1964-1974 (or thereabouts)
A:                                              B:
California Girls       (Beach Boys)             Clancey Can't Even Sing (B.S.)
Mother's Little Helper (Rolling Stones)         Rock and Roll Woman
Lady Jane                                       That's the Way (Carly Simon)
At the Zoo             (Simon & Garfunkle)      We Gotta Get You a Woman
Fakin' It                                                           (Rundgren)
Tuesday Afternoon      (Moody Blues)            I Saw the Light
Jennifer               (Donovan)                Uncle Albert (McCartney)
All Along the Watchtower (Jimi Hendrix)         Old Man (Neil Young)
Crosstown Traffic                               Hummingbird (Seals & Crofts)
Citadel                  (Stones)               Diamond Girl
She's Like a Rainbow                            Black Water (Doobie Bros.)
2000 Lightyears from Home                       Games People Play (Spinners)
Lady Madonna             (Beatles)              Killer Queen (Queen)
Good Vibrations          (Beach Boys)
Sit Down, I Think I Love You (Buff. Springfield)

EZIII:
A:                                  B:
Norwegian Wood (Beatles)            Long Cool Woman (Hollies)
Michelle                            Your Momma Don't Dance (Loggins & Messina)
Look thru Any Window (Hollies)      Angry Eyes <long version!>
Bus Stop                            Don't Stand So Close (Police)
Good Lovin'  (Rascals)              Money for Nothing (Dire Straits-short ver.)
Turn, Turn, Turn (Byrds)            Southern Cross (CSN)
8 Miles High                        When I'm 64 (Beatles)
It's No Secret (J. Airplane)        She's Leaving Home
She Has Funny Cars                  America (Simon & Garfunkle)
Pinball Wizard (Who)                Let's Go (Cars)
Summertime Blues                    My Best Friend's Girl
Witches Promise (Jethro Tull)
Living in the Past
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