HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cam@castle.ed.ac.uk (Chris Malcolm)
Newsgroups: sci.environment
Subject: Re: Historic levels of methane by bison (was Re: Perot ad and methane from cattle)
Date: 6 Nov 92 12:43:27 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <13045@optilink.UUCP> manley@optilink.UUCP (Dave Manley) writes:

>Assuming these numbers are anywhere near correct and considering the
>bison did not have the advantage of ranchers developing water supplies
>and eliminating predators, and that the 100 million number Mr McCarthy
>quotes is for the entire US and not just the historic bison range -
>I'd have to question whether the land is better optimized for cattle. 

The Great White Settler is strongly prejudiced in favour of cattle.
Some years ago a series of articles in New Scientist showed how the
natural ungulates of Africa were much better adapted to African
conditions, needing much less water, being much more resistant to
diseases and parasites, etc., so that substantially more good quality
edible meat could be produced by farming these beasts instead of
cattle; or to put it another way, the cost to the farmer of producing
a pound of meat was substantially less. Yet only a few freaks are
engaged in farming the local animals. The problem is education: the
farmers know a lot about how to raise cattle, and nothing about how to
raise wildebeest, for example. So any farmer who tries wildebeest as
an experiment is likely to run into lots of elementary problems and
conclude they are useless, simply because they don't behave like
cattle.

Evolution being what it is, it would be very surprising if cattle were
better at turning the US grasslands into meat than bison. It just so
happens that farmers are much better at raising cattle. Not to mention
how fussy US carnivores are, being most unwilling to eat anything
except the muscle meat of the cow, sheep, or pig. People who turn
green at the mere thought of horse kidney or goat liver are unlikely
to go to the trouble of learning how best to prepare bison meats.
-- 
Chris Malcolm    cam@uk.ac.ed.aifh          +44 (0)31 650 3085
Department of Artificial Intelligence,    Edinburgh University
5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK                DoD #205
Newsgroups: sci.environment
From: gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman)
Subject: Re: The Criterion for Ecocentrism
Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman)
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 01:24:22 GMT

In article <1992Nov4.230816.5394@vexcel.com> dean@vexcel.com (Dean Alaska) writes:
>>In article <1992Nov3.205726.5358@ke4zv.uucp>, gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman) writes...
>>>as much pollution as today and they were *not* banned from cities. So
>>>the politicians are making a conscious political choice to damage their 
>>>tranportation systems for marginally cleaner city air. That political
>>>choice *may* also be a good economic choice, but without proper assignment
>>>of costs to beneficiaries, and giving them a market choice of paying those
>>>costs or foregoing the benefit, we don't know.
>>
>The basic dichotomy seems to be that Gary believes that the commons
>are there for anyone to use as they wish and they must be compensated if
>this use is prevented.  Others of us believe the commons are already
>a collective property and that if someone wishes to degrade them for
>their personal gain, then that person should pay the rest of us for
>the degradation they are causing to the commons.  Or, since we are
>the property owners, we have the right to prevent the degradation.
>
>I would claim that Gary's position is that an individual may seize
>collective property for personal use and then demand payment when
>those who already "own" it don't want its value or services degraded.
>Gary might claim (others certainly would) that there is no such
>thing as collective property, but this contradicts the true
>situation and (IMO) is simply an attempt to fit reality into ones
>own perceptions and models.

You are misrepresenting my position. What I'm saying is indeed that
the commons is treated as if it had no owner, *and* that that makes
it impossible to assign it a meaningful value. My contention is that
to properly assign costs, we must capitalize the commons and distribute
it's costs and benefits among those who benefit and lose from it's use
or disuse. That brings it's value down to the individual pocketbook
directly where cost decisions are best done. The government is not an
effective surrogate for individual economic decisions.

Gary
From: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: sci.environment
Subject: Re: The Criterion for Ecocentrism
Date: 9 Nov 1992 19:57:51 GMT
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
Distribution: world
Reply-To: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <1992Nov9.172217.2590@vexcel.com>, dean@vexcel.com (Dean Alaska) writes:
=If the propert is collective and society wants to preserve it,
=then it does not need to determine a quantitative value.

Just how do we determine that "society wants to preserve it"?  Ask Dean Alaska,
and if he says society wants to preserve it, then society wants to preserve it?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CARL@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Newsgroups: sci.environment,talk.environment
From: luther@i5160e.nrl.navy.mil (Luther)
Subject: Any info on IU's SPEA ??
Organization: US Naval Research Laboratory, Acoustics Division
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 14:50:58 GMT


Hi,

In my search for the perfect grad school program in which to
reimmerse myself (for the second time - I already have an MS in
math), I came across the School for Public and Environmental
Affairs at Indiana University.

I thought these would be good newsgroups to look to for info
on this program. Is anyone familiar with IU's SPEA? I was
pretty impressed with the literature they sent to me. Is the
program as good as it seems?

Any info will be appreciated! Thanks in advance.

Ken
-----------------------------------------------------------
" I am the Master. You will obey me. "
                - "Doctor Who"
Ken Luther, Mathematician Extraordinaire
NRL, Code 5162         | Washington, DC. 20375 | (202)767-3149
-----------------------------------------------------------
From: ken@eies2.njit.edu (Kenneth  Ng)
Newsgroups: sci.environment
Subject: Re: The Criterion for Ecocentrism
Date: 7 Nov 92 20:09:18 GMT
Organization: NJIT - EIES2

In article <1992Nov6.143446.15221@nsisrv.gsfc.nasa.gov: jgacker@news.gsfc.nasa.gov (James G. Acker) writes:
:Brian K. Yoder (brian@quake.sylmar.ca.us) wrote:
:	Control?  Where was control when hazardous chemicals were
:dumped in Love Canal?  I'll bet that many of the residents there wish 
:that the government had controlled their private lives a little better,
:and not allowed houses to be built over a hazardous waste dump.

Read up a little more on Love Canal.  The city of Niagara bought the dump
from Hooker Chemical Company with a clause in the deed warning of the toxic
substances under the ground.  When the city sold the property to the home
owners, that clause was deleted from the deed.  In this case the government
was centrally involved and screwed the homeowners over.

-- 
Kenneth Ng
AT&T vs BSDI lawsuit: The Ethnic Cleansing of the computer world.
This signature is *NOT* the intellectual property of USL.
From: tobis@meteor.wisc.edu (Michael Tobis)
Newsgroups: sci.environment
Subject: Re: The Criterion for Ecocentrism
Date: 11 Nov 92 18:38:24 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin, Meteorology and Space Science

In article <-1364438394snx@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au> gil@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au (Gil Hardwick) writes: [excerpts]
>
>In article <1992Nov8.235118.16861@meteor.wisc.edu> tobis@meteor.wisc.edu writes:
>
> > Catastrophe Theory is one among a venerable serquence of perfectly
> > interesting results in theory of continuous dynamic systems that
> > for some reason has been blown out of all proportion by people who have
> > limited understanding of it. 

>Whether you want to plot it mathematically or not, or write volumes
>about functions and other abstractions, the simple demonstration of
>the theory is readily available in, for example, the case of a cart
>gradually being overloaded with bags of wheat until *suddenly* the
>wheels collapse. That is a catastrophe since now the point of the
>cart is lost, and that system either has to be restored, or another
>system deployed for transporting the grain.

>That is, the
>catastrophe is the result of stress brought about the impact of many
>in themselves discrete events, none of which have the capacity to
>predict the final outcome.

I am sorry, but these examples have nothing whatever to do with the
set of mathematical results known as catastrophe theory. Indeed, far
from requiring abstruse modern mathematics, the example of the tipping
shopping cart has been thoroughly understood since Newton, and the
principle to which Mr. Hardwick refers is even older than that. It is
known in certain circles as Fudd's First Law of Opposition: "If you
push something hard enough, it will fall over."

This principle is certainly germane, indeed central, to many problems
in environmental science, and I thank Mr. Hardwick for reminding us of it.
Nevertheless I would hope that he might choose to present his points with
more precision and succinctness in the future.

>Perhaps some of your number crunchers might like to get back to a few
>basic principles of empirical science, instead of lashing out in such
>endlessly verbose gobbledegook against people you regard as eccentric.
>They may well be, but I trust they still live in a democracy where they
>are free to speak without "scientific" blackshirts and thought police
>invading their cloisters.

>I suggest it is your own view of "science", rather, that has lost its
>focus.

I have no intention of censoring you. I only wish to point out to those
who might otherwise take you seriously that your offhand references to
recent advances in mathematics are not based in a particularly deep 
understanding of them. 

Apparently you have some sympathies for the "science is merely politics
by other means" camp among sociologists. I suppose it is your right to
believe this sort of nonsense if you choose, but given that, don't you
think it is somewhat disingenuous to be pointing to (or at least attempting
to point to) Very Important Theorems in modern mathematics to buttress 
your points?

mt
Xref: sparky sci.environment:12651 ca.environment:1030
From: ph600fcy@sdcc14.ucsd.edu (Matthew Harrington)
Newsgroups: sci.environment,ca.environment
Subject: Wanted: bumperstickers promoting environmentalism/recycling
Date: 11 Nov 92 05:47:35 GMT
Followup-To: sci.environment

I'd like to decorate my bumper with some stickers promoting
environmentalism and recycling.  Does anyone know a  source
for these?

					Thanks in advance,

					Matt Harrington

Newsgroups: sci.environment,talk.environment
From: cgellasc@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Chris Gellasch)
Subject: Re: Any info on IU's SPEA ??
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 02:24:00 GMT

In article <jimcole-091192104144@mace703.mv.us.adobe.com> jimcole@adobe.com (Jim Cole) writes:
>In article <BxGEKz.97L@ra.nrl.navy.mil>, luther@i5160e.nrl.navy.mil
>(Luther) wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> In my search for the perfect grad school program in which to
>> reimmerse myself (for the second time - I already have an MS in
>> math), I came across the School for Public and Environmental
>> Affairs at Indiana University.
>> 
>> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------
>Ken, I have a B.S. from Indiana (Computer Science), 1985.  As an
>undergraduate program, SPEA was considered the place for people who
>couldn't cut it as Busines undergrads.  The undergrad Business program is
>very easy; I got a Business minor in my sleep.  The grad SPEA program is
>more highly regarded.  Bloomington is a great town.  Lots of great music
>(classical, jazz, and folk/acoustic) thanks to IU's top music school. 
>Great countryside for biking, hiking, XC skiing, etc.  Just a great college
>town in a great area, although they do have winter there.
>
>Jim Cole

As a geology grad student I can say that SPEA is well regarded here at
IU.  Many grad students in the dept. take courses from SPEA.  I have yet
to take one but there are a couple that look interesting to me.  Of
course I only know about the environmental side of it, if you want to
find out about the public affairs side, talk to my roommate :-)

As far as undergrad SPEA, I don't know enough to say.....

I agree with Jim about Bloomington, great town and IU is a great school.

Chris Gellasch
MS student, Geology
Indiana Univ.
cgellasc@ucs.indiana.edu
From: SASPLUND@finabo.abo.fi (Staffan Asplund AT)
Newsgroups: sci.environment
Subject: Alena Chemical Conference
Date: 5 Nov 92 08:57:38 GMT
Organization: Abo Akademi University, Finland
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.23


Hello

Has any of You attend any conference arranged by 
Alena Chemicals of Canada ?

They arrange a lot of conferences and do invite You to give a talk 
without seeing any abstract. I am a bit suspicious and would be glad
 to hear Your comments.

Post or mail !

Staffan

 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 -               Project researcher / Environmental Engineering             -   
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 -  Staffan Asplund                  -              email sasplund@abo.fi   -
 -  Process Design Lab.              -              phone +358-21-654552    -
 -  Abo Akademi University           -              ph. home  921-882744    -
 -  Finland                          -              fax   +358-21-654791    -
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Tom Gray <tgray@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: sci.environment
Date: 11 Nov 92 09:54 PST
Subject: IPS: Bamboo Species Threatened
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1466601897:000:2857
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!tgray    Nov 11 09:54:00 1992


/* Written 12:06 am  Oct 26, 1992 by newsdesk@igc.apc.org in igc:ips.englibrary */
Copyright Inter Press Service 1992, all rights reserved.  Permission to re-
print within 7 days of original date only with permission from 'newsdesk'.

Title: ASIA: Bye-bye, bamboo ?


an inter press service feature

by isagani de castro

los banos, philippines, oct 23 (ips) -- the bamboo is one of the
world's fastest growing plants, but it does not seem to be
growing fast enough to prevent the rising demand of asia's
swelling population from driving it to the brink of extinction.

many of the 1,200 bamboo species distributed in south and
south-east asia are now endangered.

asians are voracious bamboo users. its shoots are a common
ingredient in chinese and japanese cuisine, two-thirds of the
pulp used for india's paper industry comes from bamboo, and in
south asia bamboo scaffoldings are widely used in the
construction industry.

across south-east asia, fishermen make rafts and fishpens out
of bamboo poles, and rice farmers use them for drying paddy. they
are also used as props for banana plantations.

india has by far the most bamboo forests in asia, with over
1.3 million hectares. burma, thailand, cambodia, laos and vietnam
are the other countries where wild bamboo is prevalent.

the growing demand for bamboo furniture worldwide has also put
extra pressure on asia's dwindling bamboo forests.

but although this versatile tree-like grass can grow even in
poor soils and areas of low rainfall, bamboo forests are
shrinking because conservation measures have not kept pace.

in the philippines, for instance, official estimates show that
the total area covered by bamboo went down from 200,000 hectares
to only 7,924 hectares in the last 60 years.

wild bamboo production dropped from 1.7 million pieces in 1979
to only 647,000 in 1981. a paper mill near manila was forced to
close in the 1970's due to the scarcity of bamboo.

now, the united nations development program (undp) and the
rome-based food and agriculture organisation (fao) are helping
countries like the philippines to save endangered bamboo forests
and raise plantations to meet demand.

the bamboo research and development project has tried to
develop new technologies to make it easier to plant and protect
bamboo trees. by sharing this technology with farmers, fao hopes
to create new jobs and raise income levels in rural areas.
(more/ips)
(story received incomplete)
0578
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* The above news story is copied from the IGC Networks, home of   *
* the nonprofit networks EcoNet, PeaceNet, ConflictNet, LaborNet, *
* and HomeoNet.  For more information on IGC Networks news        *
* services, write to support@igc.apc.org  .                       *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


Newsgroups: sci.environment
From: jimcole@adobe.com (Jim Cole)
Subject: Re: Any info on IU's SPEA ??
Followup-To: sci.environment,talk.environment
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 18:46:32 GMT

In article <BxGEKz.97L@ra.nrl.navy.mil>, luther@i5160e.nrl.navy.mil
(Luther) wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> In my search for the perfect grad school program in which to
> reimmerse myself (for the second time - I already have an MS in
> math), I came across the School for Public and Environmental
> Affairs at Indiana University.
> 
> I thought these would be good newsgroups to look to for info
> on this program. Is anyone familiar with IU's SPEA? I was
> pretty impressed with the literature they sent to me. Is the
> program as good as it seems?
> 
> Any info will be appreciated! Thanks in advance.
> 
> Ken
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> " I am the Master. You will obey me. "
>                 - "Doctor Who"
> Ken Luther, Mathematician Extraordinaire
> NRL, Code 5162         | Washington, DC. 20375 | (202)767-3149
> -----------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------------------------------
Ken, I have a B.S. from Indiana (Computer Science), 1985.  As an
undergraduate program, SPEA was considered the place for people who
couldn't cut it as Busines undergrads.  The undergrad Business program is
very easy; I got a Business minor in my sleep.  The grad SPEA program is
more highly regarded.  Bloomington is a great town.  Lots of great music
(classical, jazz, and folk/acoustic) thanks to IU's top music school. 
Great countryside for biking, hiking, XC skiing, etc.  Just a great college
town in a great area, although they do have winter there.

Jim Cole
From: tobis@meteor.wisc.edu (Michael Tobis)
Newsgroups: sci.environment
Subject: Re: Historic levels of methane by bison (was Re: Perot ad and methane from cattle)
Date: 10 Nov 92 01:39:11 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin, Meteorology and Space Science

In article <JMC.92Nov3175950@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU writes:
>We do other things with the land than just grow cattle.  However, I am
>skeptical about the high estimates, 30, 60, 150 million.  Is this the
>estimate of the Nature Conservancy itself or just some enthusiast?
>Why not just one million?
>
I suggest that the comparison between bison and cattle is not as simple as
it might appear, as the bison biomass was _supported_ by the territory, while
the cattle biomass is regularly _exported_ (every three years is it?) It
would be very surprising to see that after a century of breeding the 
efficiency of deliberate cattle ranching were only comparable to that
of natural buffalo herds (enormous though they were). But it seems to me
that directly comparing the populations of the beasts is not an appropriate
way to measure it.

On the other hand, there is no doubt that the buffalo herds were really
enormous. A recent and fascinating book on the human effects on the
landscape of the middle and western US, _Nature's Metropolis_, has an
evocative account of the sudden and spectacular disappearance of the
buffalo, succumbing to the railroad and the rifle in a period of hunting
that was enormously lucrative and hardly more difficult than shooting fish
in a barrel. (Sorry, the author's name escapes me just now.)

mt
From: alanm@hpindda.cup.hp.com (Alan McGowen)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 19:40:41 GMT
Subject: Ecology of Nitrogen Fixing Bacteria
Organization: HP Information Networks, Cupertino, CA
From: dean@vexcel.com (Dean Alaska)
Subject: Re: The Criterion for Ecocentrism
Organization: VEXCEL Corporation, Boulder CO
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 20:49:03 GMT

In article <8ezzokm00Uh7E3focL@andrew.cmu.edu> Stephen Sorensen <ss9o+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>
>Gil Hardwick writes:
>
>>There is no "communistic" system here and nowhere have I suggested
>>such a thing. Australia has always had a mixed economy which strives
>>to balance enterprise with planning and infrastructure development;
>>in our view just being sensible about it.
>> 
>>In this context I have done no more than offer a very preliminary
>>comparison between one system and another, and you can always make
>>further comparison with any number of other patently non-communist
>>economies not too dissimilar to ours.
>
>I used the word "communistic" to avoid just this type of confusion. The
>Soviet Union was a "communist" country; Australia, if its notion of
>property is the one Gil suggests, is communistic, by which I mean a
>system that gives precedence to the will of the "community" over the
>will of the individual. 

This is not what communistic means.  Communitarian would be a more
appropriate word.

>Steve Sorensen
>


-- 

		dingo in boulder	(dean@vexcel.com)