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From: scg@bashan.cs.wisc.edu ( Scg)
Subject: none
Organization: U of Wisconsin Madison - Computer Sciences
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 22:34:06 GMT

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From GUEST2@BROWNVM.brown.edu  Fri Nov 13 23:36:56 1992
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Date:         Sat, 14 Nov 92 00:30:33 EST
From: Nick Gavrielatos <GUEST2@BROWNVM.brown.edu>
Subject:      Mutlu-Bitch-Malak + Serdar-Poutan
To: soc-culture-greek-post


Dhladh etsi 0a mporw mono na stelnw twra? Mesw remote logins
allwn nodes?

Gia na kanoume auto to test... na doume 0a ftasei to god damn
thing?

Nikos Gavrielatos
To Sixameno Plasma
UCNICK@UMUC.BITNET

P.S. I cant think of Mutlu and laugh sarkastically... erroneously
     too... :-) his minnesota body got screwed up so bad he had to ad he had to
     beg for forgiveness, and mutlu himself got screwed worse so
     that he had to ... change his name... :-) ha ha ha
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: vassos@db.toronto.edu (Vassos Hadzilacos)
Subject: Re: Trip to Skopje, 9/92
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Toronto
Date: 20 Nov 92 23:28:42 GMT

In article <1992Nov20.063637.53312@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu> dk0a@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (DIMITRIOS KOUVATSOS) writes:

> I would suggest that [...] whoever propagates so blatant historical
> revisionism like that the Bulgarian king Samuil was a "Macedonian" is either
> totally devoid of historical knowledge or conscientiously trying to create
> false impressions.

If you read Ms. Gazis-Sax' posting carefully you will discover that
she was quoting from a tourist guide. The context was Slavo-Macedonians'
own perceptions of their heritage. Whether these perceptions are
historically accurate is another (albeit relevant) issue. I think it
is useful for us to know how these people view themselves. In any case,
attributing vile motives (such as "propagat[ing] historical revisionism",
and "conscientiously [sic] trying to create false impressions") on the
basis of a factual statement (what the tourist book said, not what Samuel
was!) is fallacious, to say the least.

> And that if you, sir, have an adequate knowledge to discuss
> (let alone try to refute) my statements, you can try to do so; if you don't,
> then accusing me of "appropriating" patriotism in your... glorious name is not
> something to pass for an argument. In that case, I'd just let you stew in your
> own juice.

Nice try to evade the issue---but no dice.

I did not discuss your statements because that's not what bothered me
in your posting. What I objected to was your ad-hominem attack, and
attempt to portray someone as unpatriotic and traitor to her heritage---
something which, in my opinion, she is not. What further irritated me
was your attempt to do so in the name of "us Greeks", which includes me.
Kindly refrain from speaking for all of us when, in fact, you are not.

--Vassos Hadzilacos
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: gd8f@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Gregory  Dandulakis)
Subject: Re: Scopjian Flag
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 19:50:16 GMT

In article <By0Jyo.D6o@gabriel.keele.ac.uk> cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear) writes:
>
>But the general argument is not that Macedonian would be vastly
>different to Greek. Spanish is like Italian and to an outsider both have
>the same 'feel'. This isn't to say that they're the same language though.

 Finally he said it!!!

 He thinks that:
 ancient Macedonian and ancient Greek languages WERE as relatives
 as modern Spanish and Italian.

 If 1,000 years later, modern spanish and italian would converge
 to one common language, because of political evolution-unification,
 (as it happened with the hellenistic language (Macedonian got
 disappeared then)), would this give the right to the then unrelated
 slavic language to disregard the cultural affinity between them,
 and demand "equal distance" policy?


 Gr

 (Not to mention that actually is like requiring that the modern
 Spanish King to want to be identified as an Italian and to use
 Italian as his official language!!! As it was the case with the
 Macedonian kings).
From: iptsiant@techfak.uni-bielefeld.de (Panagiotis Tsiantopoulos)
Subject: Re: The slaughter of Jews and Muslims by "pol*"s grandfathers.
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 08:48:30 GMT
Organization: Universitaet Bielefeld, Technische Fakultaet.

In article <9211112310@zuma.UUCP>, sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic) writes:
|> In article <8275.3248.uupcb@factory.com> michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos)  writes:
|> 
|> > And theory has long ago been put to practice, as the following
|> > document describes. This was reported found in an ashtray at the Ankara
|> >Motor Inn, room 69, right after a visit by a Mr and Mrs Smithpasha.
|> 
|> It isn't important. What really counts is how your grandfathers massacre
|> the Muslims and Jews.
|> 
|> Serdar Argic

If it is that what you want to tell us... try to think what your grandfathers (and maybe even some in your fathers age) did to all the Greeks. Try to think what happened the last five hundred years in Greece. How many priests were murdered, because they taught children in hidden schools.

Panos Tsiantopoulos.


Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:10812 soc.culture.yugoslavia:9664 soc.culture.europe:9740
From: n9146070@henson.cc.wwu.edu (Jacob C Kesinger)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: DON'T RECOGNIZE SKOPJE-23 REASONS
Date: 21 Nov 92 09:29:54 GMT
Article-I.D.: henson.1992Nov21.092954.6741
Organization: Western Washington University

efstse@epsilon.eecs.nwu.edu (Serafim Efstratiadis) writes:

>Appeared in The Hellenic Discussion List <HELLAS@UGA.BITNET> by
>"(Efstratios N. Kontogiannis)" <enkontog@MAILBOX.SYR.EDU>:

> 
>3- It is not proper for a country which is part of a region to degine itself
>in an official manner as representing the whole region. Macedonia, like the
>Americas, Europe, Scandanavia, and the Balkans, is a region. Just as in
>no country in North and South America would call itself the [c/r added]
"American Republic," and no European country would call itself the "Republic of
 ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^
No offence, but what do you think the 'A' in 'USA' stands for?


>Europe," the Skopje regime in naming itself cannot assume the mantle of all
>Macedonia.
> 



>Serafim.

>P.S. And one more reason:
>________________________________________________________________________
>    M A C E D O N I A   I S   T H E   H E A R T   O F   H E L L A S
>========================================================================
> ______   ____   ______   ____   ______   ____   ______   ____   _____
>|  __  | |  _ | |  __  | |  _ | |  __  | |  _ | |  __  | |  _ | |  __  |
>| | _| | | |__| | | _| | | |__| | | _| | | |__| | | _| | | |__| | | _| |
>| |____| |______| |____| |______| |____| |______| |____| |______| |____|
>========================================================================
From: dik@cwi.nl (Dik T. Winter)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: SKOPJE'S DESPERATE TACTICS
Date: 19 Nov 92 01:56:21 GMT
Organization: CWI, Amsterdam

In article <1992Nov17.152929.14369@sci.ccny.cuny.edu> branis@sci.ccny.cuny.edu (Spiros Branis) writes:
 > =========================================================================
 > Radio Belgrade transmitting to the U.S. on November 14, 1992, 22:00 ECT
 > 
 >    Publishing company "Detska radost" (translated: children joy) from
 > Skopje recently published a poster, a map of (as they called it):
 > "Whole Macedonia". On this map a border of Macedonia cuts a part of
 > South East Serbia, then it goes eastward into Rodopi mountains and river
 > Nestos, then southward to Olimpus, cutting it into half. It includes
 > Thessaloniki, also Halkidiki peninsula and island Thassos.
 > =========================================================================
 > 
 > I would like to thank Skopjians for this gift...
 > They really help to prove the Greek suspicions
 > about the expansionistic ambitions of recycled
 > communists regime in Skopje.....

Ah yes, coming from the expansionistic regime from Serbia.  They want to
have part of that country, did you know that?  And they are quite willing
to use false propaganda.  I first want to see this confirmed from other
(unbiased) sources before I believe it.
-- 
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj  amsterdam, nederland
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn  amsterdam, nederland; e-mail: dik@cwi.nl
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: Chrys Pelegris <chrysp@zooid.guild.org>
Subject: Re: Scopjian Flag
X-To: A.T. FEAR
Organization: The Zoo of Ids
Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1992 00:01:13 GMT

AF>From: cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear)
  >Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
  >Organization: Keele University, England

AF>I'm sorry you think there are dead certainties in ancient history. This
  >shows a very naive attitude towards historiography in general. All I am
  >saying is that if our ancient sources are read without any modern
  >political preconceptions as to the origins of the ancient Macedonians,
  >they most naturally suggest that Macedonian was a distinct language to
  >Greek not a dialect of Greek. Moreover modern research supports this
  >reading. Of course when you start with the prejudice that the
  >Macedonians were Greeks your perception may alter rapidly...

    You are either quite dumb or quite blind.  I recommend you take a look
    at some of the artifacts found in Macedonia and explain to me why the
    language it is written with is Koine, or ANCIENT GREEK!  Oh don't tell
    me, that was Macedonian not Greek right?

AF>And you are not? The data from antiquity we have is that Demosthenes
  >dislikes Philip, was a skilled orator, and said Philip was a barbarian.
  >I have suggested that he wouldn't use an argument that would make him
  >look foolish (after all he did want to win), you I assume that he used
  >what to you is a patently nonsensical argument. Which of those
  >interpretations seems more affected by modern prejudice?

     And just because ONE man was against Philip of Macedon, that is your
     entire argument as to why Macedonians were not Greeks..? Sigh..

  --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Chrys Pelegris  |  ===__-+-                          WWIVNet:35@4650
    Toronto Canada  | Internet: chrysp@zooid.guild.org   FidoNet:1:250/338
  --------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
 * SLMR 2.1a * I'm not a stranger...only a friend you haven't met.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: iptsiant@techfak.uni-bielefeld.de (Panagiotis Tsiantopoulos)
Subject: Re: "Bayraktar/Omerye" mosques had been "totally vandalised" by the Greeks.
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 16:15:55 GMT
Organization: Universitaet Bielefeld, Technische Fakultaet.

In article <9211120158@zuma.UUCP>, sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic) writes:
|> UNESCO expert Mr Jacques Dalibard's report presented in Jan 1976,
|> no. RP/975-76/3.41.
|> 
|> This report expresses in para. 6.c. that "Bayraktar" and "Omerye"
|> mosques had been "totally vandalised" by the Greeks and that their
|> minarets had been destroyed by them.
|> 

This means there are or were mosques in that area. How many greek-orthodox churches are there in Turkey (which are not used as museums, but as churches) ?

|>    With regard to the destruction and desecration of Turkish
|> Muslim cultural property in the South, the report, at page 13,
|> para. 5.3 states the following:
|> 
|>    "We noted with regret the complete destruction of the main
|> mosque in Paphos. 

He didn 't regret the destruction out of political reasons, but because of tourism, history and money-making. You take the problem the other-way-round: because of political and religious reasons no one should do no harm to a mosque (without wanting to say it is correct to destroy a church/mosque/synagogy/.../meating-place, but here is obviously someone mixing religion with politics, and that 's you,Serdar.).


|> The whole are has since been flattened to
|> give way for a widened road junction and a car park. 
|> The Turkish Cypriot cemetery by the
|> nearby St. Sophia Myttalos mosque is dilapitated."

Something similar happened to a Jewish cemetry in Berlin/Germany, and there 
                                --------------    --------------
were only a few (Jews) who disagreed.


|>    And, at page 13, we find an expose of the Greek falsifications:
|> 
|>    "We saw no churches, destroyed though St. George in Liminia
|> (in the North) was listed as such (by Greek Cypriot Government)."
|> 
|>    On the use or reuse of religious buildings, the report,
|> again at page 13, states the following:
|> 
|>    "In several cases the churches are used as mosques.

Is there any church used as a church???
Think of the Agia Sofia in Konstantinopel...the former orthodox church in Smyrna...

|> Although
|> the point is controversial we find it difficult to criticise
|> such reuse. As the Turkish Cypriots point out, it has been general
|> Council of Europe policy for some time to urge reuse of redundant
|> religious buildings. This was reasserted as recently as May 1989
|> in the Parliamentary Assembly when we adopted Resolution 916."
|> 
|> Serdar Argic
|> 


Panos Tsiantopoulos.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: mukherjb@dsuvax.dsu.edu (Basu Mukherjee)
Subject: an appeal to help poor children in india
Organization: Dakota State University, Madison, SD
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 21:15:08 GMT

==============================================================================
		An Appeal To Help Poor Students In India
   Contribute to RAMAKRISHNA MISSION BOYS' HOME, RAHARA, WB, INDIA

Swami Vivekananda once said,'Service to man is service to god'. Following
his footprints, Ramakrishna Mission organizations, established by Swamiji
himself, have been serving the poor and the distressed for about a century. 
Millions of people, including this author have directly or indirectly
benifited from the social-welfare and educational programs of Ramakrishna
Mission. Today, after a century old tradition of service, this organization
faces a daunting challenge in the face of a steep economic crisis. 

Ramakrishana Mission, Rahara is an organization that was established about
thirty five years ago at Rahara, a small village near Calcutta, West Bengal.
What started with  twenty eight orphan students under the auspicious
leadership of Swami Punyananda has , over the years, has grown into an
organization of over a thousand students offering educational services at
all levels. Ramakrishna Mission, Rahara has also a rich tradition of providing
free education to thousands of orphan students over these years and help
them become useful members of the society. Right now, there are 750 orphan
students at Rahara whose future is at stake due to a steep budget crisis and
lack of adequate governmental help.

According to Swami Jayananda, secretary, R.K. Mission, Rahara, it takes only 
14 dollars/month to support an orphan student at school in Rahara. 

We are trying to coordinate an effort to help these poor students by 
contributing to Ramakrishana Mission . 

If you are interested, please send e-mail to
	
	mukherjb@dsuvax.dsu.edu
		or
	ritwik@parrot.creighton.edu.

You may also directly contact

		Swami Jayananda, secretary
		Ramakrishana Mission Boys' Home
		Rahara, 24 Paraganas(N)
		West Bengal - 743186 
		India  
		Telephone - 91-33-531219

Your interested may pave the way for an orphan child to a brighter future.
 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: jyc@leo.Stanford.EDU (Jon Corelis)
Subject: Re: travel in Greece
Organization: DSO, Stanford University
Date: 18 Nov 92 16:28:06 GMT

c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos) writes:

>jyc@leo.Stanford.EDU (Jon Corelis) writes:

>>    I have to say that schoolchildren on Greek buses seem remarkably well
>> behaved.  They can be noisy, but you don't see the sort of rowdiness you
>> do on American buses full of teenagers.

>Pleeez. Try taking a bus from Omonoia/Rigillis or Acadimia sq. right 
>at 10:15 pm, when all the frontistiria (college exam prep cram schools)
>(how's that for terminology :-)) let the crowds go. 

   I guess I was thinking more of out in the country.  As I said, the
drivers seem to know everyone, so if the kids act up too much he can
tell their parents.  Heck, out in the country the driver will often
probably be related to half of them.   
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
From: kpm@hpuerca.atl.hp.com (Kaushik Mehta)
Subject: Need Info on adoption laws
Summary: Need info on Greek Adoption Laws
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 18:36:20 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard NARC Atlanta
Keywords: ADOPTION



My wife and I have a strong desire to adopt a Greek baby (< 1 year old).
My wife was born in Greece and  I was born in India. We are both professionals
and have been married for over 10 years.     

I need information on Greek adoption laws, any pertinent informat-
ion that will be helpfull and addresses of agencies both in Greece or USA
that handle adoption cases.

We are also willing to adopt a baby from Albania or Yugoslavia that have 
Greek ancestry. 

If you or someone you know that is willing to help us please donot hesitate
to call me (404.850.2086) or email me any information (kpm@hpuerca.atl.hp.com)
that will  make things easier and cut the bureaucratic red tape.
From: dk0a@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (DIMITRIOS KOUVATSOS)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Disappointment
Date: 20 Nov 92 06:54:37 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

In article <scg.722212441@cs.wisc.edu>, scg@bashan.cs.wisc.edu ( Scg) writes:
>
> Hi,
>
......
> I am sending this post because I am really tired of this Serdar Argic.
> Everytime I receive something from this list I scroll through pages and pages
> of his rubbish.  It is really very frustrating and, as I said in the subject
> line, I am very disappointed.  I can't really say that I have learned a whole
> lot about Greek culture at this point.  I think that if this individual
> wants to be so prolific then let him start his own list and if there is
> anyone out there that is really interested in what he has to say they can
> subscribe.

Please don't feel disappointed for that reason; it's only the fault of the
Turkish paid propagandists who post from the cosar/mutlu/argic accounts, and
of nobody else. It is a problem in many newsgroups, not only in scg.

> Well, now that I've got that unpleasant bit out of the way I'd like to pose
> some questions.  First of all, I've noticed that there are almost all males
> that post to the list, I am curious about how you guys view the role of women
> in your society?  (Note:  I am not a feminist so don't read too much into my
> question.)  I have been told by a number of people that I won't be happy in
> Greece because I will lose a lot of my freedom.  I don't really agree with
> that but I would like to hear your responses.  Next, I would like to ask
> if there are any Greek women on the list?  If so, could you please respond to
> this from your own point of view?

Well, it happens that the number of male faculty and graduate students in the
sciences and engineering far exceeds the female one. But rest assured that
this does not reflect any inferior position of women in Greek society; women
have indeed equality of human rights in Greece, certainly no less than in
other western countries - they are actively involved in the economic, social
and political life of the country. I'd dare say that in some aspects women
are freer in Greece than in the USA - for example, no fundy will preach the
concept of 'male headship' and no mediaeval anti-abortion obscurantists will
ever block, let alone bomb, an abortion clinic, as in the US. Those people
who tell you that you will lose freedom in Greece simply have no idea of what
they are talking about - to say that they are wrong is an understatement...

>
> Deborah Economidis
>

Dimitris Kouvatsos
-- 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: scg@bashan.cs.wisc.edu ( Scg)
Subject:  Disappointment
Organization: U of Wisconsin Madison - Computer Sciences
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 22:34:01 GMT

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From DMARTIN%WCU.BitNet@vms.macc.wisc.edu  Tue Nov 17 09:50:11 1992
Received: from cs.wisc.edu by bashan.cs.wisc.edu; Tue, 17 Nov 92 09:50:11 -0600
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Date: 11/13/92 15:16
From: DeborahEconomidis%WISCMACC.BitNet@vms.macc.wisc.edu
Subject: Disappointment
To: DMARTIN <DMARTIN%WCU.BitNet@vms.macc.wisc.edu>
Resent-Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 10:36:37 EST
Resent-From: Deborah Economidis <DMARTIN%WCU.BitNet@vms.macc.wisc.edu>
Resent-To: SOC-CULTURE-GREEK-POST
Status: OR

 Hi,
 
 I'm fairly new to the list and at first I was really looking forward to the
 experience.  I have recently married to a Greek and was interested in finding
 out more about the culture.  This is actually a logical choice because in a
 couple of years we plan to return to Greece to live.
 
 I am sending this post because I am really tired of this Serdar Argic.
 Everytime I receive something from this list I scroll through pages and pages
 of his rubbish.  It is really very frustrating and, as I said in the subject
 line, I am very disappointed.  I can't really say that I have learned a whole
 lot about Greek culture at this point.  I think that if this individual
 wants to be so prolific then let him start his own list and if there is
 anyone out there that is really interested in what he has to say they can
 subscribe.
 
 Well, now that I've got that unpleasant bit out of the way I'd like to pose
 some questions.  First of all, I've noticed that there are almost all males
 that post to the list, I am curious about how you guys view the role of women
 in your society?  (Note:  I am not a feminist so don't read too much into my
 question.)  I have been told by a number of people that I won't be happy in
 Greece because I will lose a lot of my freedom.  I don't really agree with
 that but I would like to hear your responses.  Next, I would like to ask
 if there are any Greek women on the list?  If so, could you please respond to
 this from your own point of view?
 
 I am really looking forward to your responses.  If you prefer, feel free to
 respond directly to me at
 
 DMARTIN@WCU.BITNET
 
 Deborah Economidis