HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ohall@milori.ccit.arizona.edu
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination,soc.culture.african.american,misc.education
Subject: Re: Institutional racism
Date: 21 Dec 92 17:30:18 GMT
 <1992Dec17.011310.16154@samba.oit.unc.edu> <1992Dec17.102551.1@milori.ccit.arizona.edu> <1992Dec19.041033.18653@samba.oit.unc.edu>
Distribution: usa,local
Nntp-Posting-User: ohall

In article <1992Dec19.041033.18653@samba.oit.unc.edu>, Terry.Parks@launchpad.unc.edu (Terry Parks) writes:
>>  There are companies that are reluctant to hire blacks and practice
>>  discrimination.
> 
> Then please name these mythical companies. I know of many companies that engage
> in racial discrimination but all this discrimination is exclusively
> directed against Caucasians.
>
  Anheuiser Busch L.A.,  Ca.  You should see how many black men work
  there.   There used to be one, and I interviewed for his position.  I saw his
  picture on the company hierachical chart.  Do you need more? 

>>  You would have to be a fool from hell to believe this type
>>  of hiring practice doesn't exist in America today.
> 
> Then please name these mythical companies.
  I did.  
> 
>>  If you had your way I
>>  would be a sitting duck believing that everything is fine in the U.S.A. 
> 
> No, as I mentioned, there is rampant racial discrimination.
> 
  Well if you agree that there is rampant racial discrimination, why do you
have trouble believing that that discrimination doesn't seep into the
workforce(i.e. hiring practices)?

  The first step to recovery is acceptance.
> --                                       
Xref: sparky alt.discrimination:5460 alt.politics.correct:6045 alt.president.clinton:1270 talk.politics.misc:65402
From: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination,alt.politics.correct,alt.president.clinton,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: Affirmative action is dead
Keywords: quotas
Date: 27 Dec 92 18:50:21 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department

In article <BzvApH.DDD@world.std.com> cmr@world.std.com (Charles M Richmond) writes:
>niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent) writes:
>
>>In article <1992Dec21.025537.4756@leland.Stanford.EDU> jimbo@leland.Stanford.EDU (Godfather of Soul) writes:
>>>In article <BzKC55.6JK@agora.rain.com> robart@agora.rain.com (Joe Bob) writes:

			.....................

>>Anyone who claims to have ALL the answers is a liar.  Or a religious
>>fundamentalist of some stripe.  Or am I being redundant?

Or someone ignorant or stupid.  This is the largest class.

>...and anyone who would prefer to vote for someone who _claimed_ to have
>all of the answers, rather than one who honestly admitted to not having
>_all of the answers_ ... 

NOW you have accused the great bulk of the electorate.
-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@snap.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!snap.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
Xref: sparky alt.discrimination:5488 soc.culture.african.american:13402 misc.education:5626
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination,soc.culture.african.american,misc.education
Subject: Re: Institutional racism in education
Date: 4 Jan 93 04:40:58 GMT
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Followup-To: alt.discrimination,soc.culture.african.american
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Chicago

In article <1992Dec24.043145.13165@samba.oit.unc.edu> Terry.Parks@launchpad.unc.edu (Terry Parks) writes:
>>>>1.  Union seniority rules
>
>>>Could you explain how giving a Blak worker with 20 years service
>>>preferences over a Caucasian worker with 5 years serivce benefits the
>>Caucasian worker?
>
>>It doesn't.  However, Blacks are more likely to be more recently hired
>>than Whites.
>
>I thought the party line was that whites are 3 to 5 times more likely to
>be hired than blacks. It would better serve the pro-racism forces to
>get their propaganda in sync.

Get your common sense "in sync."  The two statements aren't mutually
exclusive.  For any one position, a white is more likely to be hired.
For any one worker, a black is more likely to be *recently* hired.

Take the example of a company that didn't hire any blacks until 1970,
and then started hiring blacks that year, but is still less likely to
hire a black than a white.  If it lays off workers by seniority, blacks
are more likely to be laid off than whites, even though whites are
more likely to be hired than blacks. 

Followups out of misc.education.
-- 
ted frank                     | thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu 
standard disclaimers          | void where prohibited
the university of chicago law school, chicago, illinois 60637
Xref: sparky alt.discrimination:5436 soc.culture.african.american:13178 misc.education:5487
From: tleylan@pegasus.com (Tom Leylan)
Subject: Re: Affirmative action is dead
Keywords: quotas
Organization: Pegasus,  Honolulu
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 05:58:20 GMT

jimbo@leland.Stanford.EDU (Godfather of Soul) writes:

>James W. Brown	-  I dream of the day when conservatives learn   	-
>		-  the difference between a sin and a crime and  	-
>		-  liberals learn the difference between a       	-
>		-  virtue and a requirement.      --William A. Niskanen	-

I like the quotation.

Are you familiar with the one attributed to Winston Churchill ?

"Show me a young man who is a conservative and I'll show you a man without
a heart... show me an old man who is a liberal and I'll show you a man
without a brain."

tom

Newsgroups: alt.discrimination,soc.culture.african.american,misc.education
From: johnhall@microsoft.com (John Hall)
Subject: Re: Institutional racism in education
Date: 18 Dec 92 17:00:36 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation
Distribution: usa

In article Terry.Parks@launchpad.unc.edu (Terry Parks) writes:
| >>> And can you name this company or companies which won't hire anyone because
| >>> they're Blak? I certainly wouldn't want to have dealings with them.
| 
| >1.  Union seniority rules
| 
| Could you explain how giving a Blak worker with 20 years service
| preferences over a Caucasian worker with 5 years serivce benefits the
| Caucasian worker?

Wrong question. Given that unions and companies actively discriminated
in the past, and thus prevented qualified blacks from obtaining a job
in the first place, Union seniority rules perpetuate the inequity.  
This is especially true where overall employeement in that field is
falling.

Further, union seniority rules directly refute the principle of
merit -- that the best person should get the job.  And if you are
not *really* picking the most qualified person for the job what
the hell are you doing complaining about AA?

It is worth noting that the federal law mandating 'prevailing'
(ie Union) wages at federal projects was passed by a NY lawmaker
after a southern company, using black labor, obtained a contract
to build a prison.  This one law continues to discriminate against
firms willing to hire/train minorities while driving up public
costs (some say double).  Sorry I don't rememeber the laws name.

That was fun.

-- 
-------------------------
My comments are my own.  They are independent and unrelated to the
views of my company , relatives or elected representatives.

Newsgroups: alt.discrimination,soc.culture.african.american,misc.education
From: Terry.Parks@launchpad.unc.edu (Terry Parks)
Subject: Re: Institutional racism in education
Organization: UNC Office of Information Technology
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 22:17:12 GMT

>I read about this particular study in the Boston Globe.  Why don't you
>try calling and asking about it?  I'm sure they'll help you.  I also
>recall reading about it in the New York Times.
>|the same as a $50,000 income.


>Can you document this or are you making it up?

The "study" examined over 5.3 million mortgage applications and did not
find one where an applicant was denied a mortgage because of their
race. The "study" did find that a poor applicant was more often denied
a mortgage than a wealthy applicant and that more of the Blak applicants
in the "study" were poor than wealthy. The "study" reported that
poor Blak and Caucasian applicants being denied mortages and
wealthy Blak and Caucasian applicants being granted mortages demonstrated
a racial bias by the mortgage lenders because more of the people who
applied to them for mortgages who were Blak were poor than wealthy.
Now the "study" claimed to factor out the income factor by only
comparing the rejection rates for people with the same income. This
"same" income was determined by grouping applicants about the
median family income and those with less income and those with more
income. So three income ranges were used, with everyone within each
range being declared by the "study" as having the same income. So
in the first group, applicants with annual incomes of $8,000 and $2,000
had the "same" income and in the third group, applicants with annual
incomes of $500,000 and $50,00 had the "same" income. The same flaw
exists with the second group but not to these illustrated extremes.

I read about this particular study in the Boston Globe.  Why don't you
try calling and asking about it?  I'm sure they'll help you.  I also
recall reading about it in the New York Times.

--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Xref: sparky alt.discrimination:5424 soc.culture.african.american:13161 misc.education:5471
From: KRB104@psuvm.psu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination,soc.culture.african.american,misc.education
Subject: Parks shows her sixth sense!
Date: 21 Dec 92 13:46:27 GMT
 <1992Dec13.020511.2386@samba.oit.unc.edu>
 <1992Dec19.023244.6238@news.acns.nwu.edu>
 <1992Dec21.015256.18920@samba.oit.unc.edu>
Distribution: usa
Organization: Penn State University

In article <1992Dec21.015256.18920@samba.oit.unc.edu>,
Terry.Parks@launchpad.unc.edu (Terry Parks) says:
>
>>After all of this junk, Mr. Parks, could you explain why whites are still
>>3 to 5 times more likely to be hired over a black applicant with the same
>>qualifications as the white applicant.
>
>Because this is incorrect.

   Terry Parks shows how smart she is here.  Without even seeing the study, she
states for the world to know that it is incorrect.  I would love to have a
professor like Terry Parks, she would be able to hand your papers back
instantly, without even looking at it to grade, she would just say, "this paper
stinks, this one is correct" just on intuition!  Come on Terry, you are showing
your ignorance, loud and clear!

>
>>This study was done by the US department of labor.
>

   Terry Parks obviously knows nothing about the Federal Government.  I am
a researcher for the Fed Gov. and I can tell you from experience that the
government doesn't like to put out anything that shows that the U.S. is still
a racist society.  For this report to be made public, the evidence must be
pretty overwhelming!  But Terry Parks says the study is incorrect and thus we
should all ignore it!

>List the details of this "study" so its flaws can be made apparent.
>Regardless, mandating and supporting racism in employment, such as
>with AA, serves to increase the prevalence of racism in employment.
>
  Oh, finally you want details. You don't know details, and yet above you state
that the study is incorrect!  Again, AA does not MANDATE anything!  Read the
statute sometime instead of getting your facts from Pat Buchanon, David Duke,
etal.  For you to say that the study is incorrect shows a definite lack of
knowledge about the real world.  I bet that EVERY Black person can give you
personal examples of racism in hiring practices.  Can every white person say
the same?

>>If blacks had all of this unfair opportunity, then
>>blacks should be hired more frequently over whites ?
>
>The existence of this "unfair opportunity" is fact.
>
>--
>   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
>     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
>        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
>           internet:  laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination,soc.culture.african.american,misc.education
From: solman@athena.mit.edu (Jason W Solinsky)
Subject: Re: Institutional racism in education
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Distribution: usa
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 21:19:57 GMT

In article <1992Dec29.023709.20634@samba.oit.unc.edu>, Terry.Parks@launchpad.unc.edu (Terry Parks) writes:
|> >   Again Terry misrepresents what is written.  I didn't exclude any facts from
|> >the orignial post as Terry tries to state in the beginning of this.  The
|> >original post referred to a Labor Department study on hiring practice, and
|> >somehow Terry gets to a study on Mortgates.
|> 
|> The study on mortgages refutes the claim that government studies are
|> not biased to be Politically Correct. Given that is has been established
|> that in today's society, the government does inject such bias, that
|> a study was done by the government does not give it a defacto seal of
|> correctness.

Your ignorance is outstanding. The United States government was never in
possesion of data that even remotely suggested that there was no racial
bias in obtaining mortgages. After the original study, people like Terry
started howling because the original results (which suggested there was
racism) were based on data that failed to consider too many factors. (This
was probably an accurate sentiment.) This inspired a second study. That
second study:

A) Received much more press.
B) Considered every factor that anybody though might be remotely significant.
C) Demonstrated a statistically significant bias against blacks.

I would strongly ask that you start doing a little verification.

|> Exactly. The fact that the details of the study continue to be repeatly
|> kept secret defines it as suspect.

All the information is available. You are unable to find results considering
those factors which the original study did not consider BECAUSE THEY WERE
NEVER COLLECTED. Nothing is being hidden. The first study saved money and
compromised the results in the process. This is not an unusual occurence.
In fact, it is often a good business decision. Information costs money.

Jason W. Solinsky
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination,alt.politics.correct,alt.president.clinton,talk.politics.misc
From: Dr. Norman J. LaFave <lafave@ial4.jsc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Re: Affirmative action is dead
X-Xxdate: Mon, 21 Dec 92 10:09:28 GMT
Organization: Lockheed Engineering & Sciences Company
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d12
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 16:13:06 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.025537.4756@leland.Stanford.EDU> Godfather of Soul,
jimbo@leland.Stanford.EDU writes:
>A Clinton quote after the "economic summit" was "We don't have all the
>answers and we probably never will".  I'm glad 43% of the American
>electorate voted for someone who admits he doesn't have the answers.
>I'm not sure he evens knows the question.  What utter incompetence.

I'm sorry, but this is the most idiotic statement made on the net in
weeks. The author even has the operative word to shoot himself in
the foot with in his posting! The operative word is "all"---we don't have
"all" the answers. Anybody who tells you that they HAVE all the answers
for our complicated economic and social ills is more than incompetant
---they are lying or stupid.

Get a clue before you post.

Norman

Dr. Norman J. LaFave
Senior Engineer
Lockheed Engineering and Sciences Company




When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro
                               Hunter Thompson
Xref: sparky alt.discrimination:5438 soc.culture.african.american:13180
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination,soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: Institutional racism 
From: ohall@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu
Date: 21 Dec 92 14:35:10 MST
Distribution: usa,local
Nntp-Posting-User: ohall

In article <1992Dec21.135659.3583@athena.mit.edu>, solman@athena.mit.edu (Jason W Solinsky) writes:
> In article <1992Dec16.171252.1@milori.ccit.arizona.edu>, ohall@milori.ccit.arizona.edu writes:
> 
> |>   And what about the skilled and educated blacks, like me?  Where do they work?
> |>   I can tell you where they end up living.  The salvation army, and the street!
> 
> That's an extraordinarilly small minority. In your case there is an obvious
> attitude problem that has caused your situation. Considering the number of
> unemployed people who are far more qualified than you and don't have the
> attitude problem, you're lucky that you have a job.
> 
  Comming from you that really means alot!


Xref: sparky alt.discrimination:5430 alt.politics.correct:6019 alt.president.clinton:1218 talk.politics.misc:65030
From: mpolen@suntory.mti.sgi.com (Mike Polen)
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination,alt.politics.correct,alt.president.clinton,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: Affirmative action is dead
Date: 21 Dec 1992 18:52:18 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: suntory.mti.sgi.com
Keywords: quotas

|> > I predict that what is now called 'AA' will eventually degenerate into a
|> > permanent policy of quota-based hiring, with continuing refinement as to
|> > which groups are entitled to which-sized quotas. I point again to South
|> > Africa as a precedent for a society which bases everything on race, and I
|> > suggest again that this is not the example we want to follow.
|> 
Actually, South Africa is a precedent for a society which bases everything
on protecting the power of a racial minority.  AA will be needed to protect
whites by the year 2010.

-- 
These opinions are usually my own, sometimes my dog's,
occasionaly my (grown) children's, never my employer's.
Xref: sparky alt.discrimination:5463 soc.culture.african.american:13284 misc.education:5565
From: robart@agora.rain.com (Joe Bob)
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination,soc.culture.african.american,soc.culture.african
Subject: Re: Parks attempts to respond and doesn't!!!!
Date: 26 Dec 92 21:48:35 GMT
Article-I.D.: agora.Bzvz90.6yy
Distribution: usa
Organization: a gora

In article <92358.071033KRB104@psuvm.psu.edu> KRB104@psuvm.psu.edu writes:
>In article <BzoKAx.5zI@agora.rain.com>, robart@agora.rain.com (Joe Bob) says:
>>>>>Would you PLEASE explain why you insist on spelling "black" as "blak"?
>>
>>  In the past, someone on soc.culture.african said that "blak" was the
>>proper Afrocentric spelling.
>
>  As a regular reader of the soc.culture.african, and as a Black (with a "c")
>man, I haven't seen this anywhere.  There is one former poster who used the
>spelling, but he, by no means is the authority on Afrocentric spellings or
>what nots. The same person spelled "America" as "Amerikkka", does that mean
>that the rest of you are going to follow that lead also.  I think I speak for
>a lot of people on the network by saying that we prefer the typical spelling
>of the word "Black" and not something that someone calls "Afrocentric"!


  Are you talking about Kristofer Gray at Mississippi State?  He doesn't
seem to be around anymore.  I doubt if he graduated though, since he
seemed to be really ignorant.
Xref: sparky alt.discrimination:5448 soc.culture.african.american:13219 misc.education:5528
From: pajerek@telstar.kodak.com (Don Pajerek)
Subject: Re: Affirmative action is dead
Keywords: quotas
Reply-To: pajerek@telstar.kodak.com (Don Pajerek)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corp. - Telstar
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 16:35:55 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.025537.4756@leland.Stanford.EDU> jimbo@leland.Stanford.EDU (Godfather of Soul) writes:
>
>A Clinton quote after the "economic summit" was "We don't have all the
>answers and we probably never will".  I'm glad 43% of the American
>electorate voted for someone who admits he doesn't have the answers.
>I'm not sure he evens knows the question.  What utter incompetence.
>
>James
>
>-- 
>James W. Brown		-  I dream of the day when conservatives learn   	-
>			-  the difference between a sin and a crime and  	-
>			-  liberals learn the difference between a       	-
>			-  virtue and a requirement.      --William A. Niskanen	-


'utter incompetence'? Compared to who? What would your reaction have been
if Clinton had said something more like, 'Well, thanks for your time, now
I have all the answers.'? Would 'insufferable arrogance' be about right?

Anyone who claims to have all the answers, including yourself, Mr. Brown,
is expressing nothing more than vast overconfidence in their own
knowledge and competence.

As for 'knowing the question', if you had heard Clinton's opening remarks
it would have been eminently clear that Clinton has a rather clear grasp
of the 'question'.

And why stop at 43% ? Another 19% voted for someone who also admitted to
not having the answers, and who said only that he would, after taking office,
convene panels of experts to make recommendations.

This leaves 38%, who presumably voted for someone who *did* have all the
answers.  :-)


Don Pajerek

Standard disclaimers apply.
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination,soc.culture.african.american,misc.education
From: Terry.Parks@launchpad.unc.edu (Terry Parks)
Subject: Re: Institutional racism in education
Organization: UNC Office of Information Technology
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 02:59:24 GMT

>Just two months ago, the Boston
>branch of the Federal Reserve Bank completed a study of loan
>applications where they used all *39* official attributes that lending
>institutions use to evaluate potential lendees and found that with all
>things being equal, Blacks and Hispanics were less likely than their
>White counterparts to get a loan.

Any hints as to where this study's results were published? Given
the recent study of over 5.3 million mortgage applications did
not yield any cases of racial bias, why the funding of another study?
Maybe to come up the the "right" results this time? Anyway, could
"less likely" be quantified? Maybe the confidence interval could
be given (surely the study producers know what a confidence interval
is)?

>This was the first study of its kind to use all these 39 attributes.

And how were they used?

>Prior studies simply used income and value of a home (they tended to
>study mortgages).

"Simply", good description given that a $500,000 income was considered
the same as a $50,000 income.

>In short, you are completely wrong.  In fact, your assertion that
>"they cooked the data to introduce a racial bais, one that poor Blaks
>receive fewer loans than wealthy Caucasians" is painfully false.  Even
>the early studies controlled for wealth and assets.

What else would you call this "liberal" use of the term "same income"?

>And since the
>reports I've seen and/or read about have always gone to great pains to
>show this, I am forced to wonder whether you are either completely
>insane, purposefully ignorant and/or intentionally lying.

I must wonder whether you think 500,000 is the same as 50,000 or
whether you think it is the same when it serves the cause.

--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination,soc.culture.african.american,misc.education