HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: merritt@macro.bu.edu (Sean Merritt)
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy
Subject: Re: : Looking for Anarchism refs to read
Date: 22 Dec 92 16:08:09 GMT
Organization: Boston University Physics Department
In-reply-to: ALI00ERW@UNCCVM.UNCC.EDU's message of 22 Dec 92 14:49:17 GMT

In article <168C58A1F.ALI00ERW@UNCCVM.UNCC.EDU> ALI00ERW@UNCCVM.UNCC.EDU writes:


%   If you're looking for good *fiction* about anarchism to read (I didn't
%   see the original request; maybe it got lost in all the bondage baloney!),
%   I would recommend The Dispossessed by Ursula LeGuin. Its about an anarchist
%   society that was exiled to the moon of the people's home planet (so they
%   would contaminate others with their ideas). But, people get all hung-up
%   on being politically correct and the society stagnates until this one guy
%   shakes things up a bit by promoting greater contact with the home planet.

 If we are talking fiction, I would recommend, Walden II by B.F. Skinner
 although some are sure to disagree.


 -sjm


--
Sean J. Merritt		         | "Every revolt is a cry of innocence    
Dept of Physics Boston University|  and an appeal to the essence of being."
merritt@macro.bu.edu             | Albert Camus, The Rebel
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy
From: sourada@iastate.edu (Steven D Ourada)
Subject: New definition of anarchy?
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1992 01:43:01 GMT

"It was just total chaos. Anarchy in it's purest form."

               -- Tom Brokaw about the situation in Somalia, on the David
                   Letterman show


-- 
-------
Steven Ourada -- sourada@iastate.edu
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy
From: w2lee@argo.acs.oakland.edu (Walter Lee)
Subject: Re: Looking for Anarchism refs to read
Reply-To: w2lee@argo.acs.oakland.edu
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, MI
Distribution: alt
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 17:19:53 GMT

In article <PMETZGER.92Dec25124149@snark.shearson.com>, pmetzger@snark.shearson.com (Perry E. Metzger) writes:

>I don't know who's book you read, but "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress"
>does indeed largely depict an anarchist society. An anarchocapitalist
>society, certainly, which is bound to disgust certain
>antipropertarians on this list (I'm a propertarian myself), but it is
>indisputably an anarchist society. Other than an impotent governor
>who's men serve solely to attempt to try to collect money from
>exports, the penal colony has no internal government whatsoever and is
>depicted as functioning entirely on a customary legal basis. Is not
>the definition of an anarchy a society (hopefully a functioning one)
>without a government? 

I consider absence of government to be a necessary condition for anarchy, but
not a sufficient condition.  If these people were anarchists, why did they call
their political entity "Luna Free STATE"?  Like you I would describe
pre-revolutionary Luna as being _governed_ by an "impotent governor who's men
serve solely to attempt to try to collect money from exports".  I would
describe Lunar society as being _run_ by Mike, who had effective control over
the climate control system, among other things.

>I suspect your claim is based on some notion that anarchism must be
>collectivist in flavor. Just because I don't like the society in "The
>Dispossessed" by Le Guin doesn't mean I wouldn't admit its an anarchy.
>Similarly, you shouldn't claim that the society in "The Moon is a
>Harsh Mistress" isn't an anarchy just because you don't like it.

Why do you not like the society depicted in "The Dispossessed"?  Would life on
Anarres place limitations on your potential?  If so, why call it anarchy? I
liked "The Dispossessed" not so much for "Odonianism" (you ask me the only
thing worse than an "-ism" is an -ism named after a person), but physicist
Shevek's solution to the problem of classified and/or proprietary research. I
would place a higher value on the freedom to pursue art or science or whatever
"for its own sake" (independent of sponsorship, patronage, employment (even
self-employment) etc. which come with strings attached) than the "freedom" to
sell one's creative effort.  Of course, back home on Anarres, Shevek had to do
all kinds of manual labor.

As for myself, my idea of Human Dignity is working (in the economic sense) for
survival only, and hopefully having enough leisure time to have the opportunity
to do something creative with my life.

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Walter Lee                                          w2lee@argo.acs.oakland.edu

It is clear that thought is not free if the profession of certain opinions
makes it impossible to earn a living.
				-- Bertrand Russell (1872-1967)
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy,alt.society.revolution
From: daum@ee.ualberta.ca (Tanya Louise Daum)
Subject: Multiuser Conferencing Game with "radical" bias
Summary: Text based virtual reality experiment
Keywords: mud moo lambdamoo playhousemoo anarchism socialism anarchy freedom el 
Organization: University Of Alberta, Edmonton Canada
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 18:39:28 GMT

If you have access to the "telnet" program or a better internet client
please try connecting to my multiuser text based virtual reality at 

	eigen.ee.ualberta.ca 5555
	(or 129.128.16.97)

What this is, for you people not familiar with MUDs, is a MOO server, which
runs an object oriented database which creates objects with which players
can interact as if they were "real" objects.  That is, you can do things
like "get table" or "look at porcupine" and "say hello"

The system's strength is that it allows for fun and fascinating
conversations with people who are also within this text virtual reality. 
For instance, with the "say" command you can talk to other people in the
same virtual room.  With the "page" command you can page people in other
rooms.

Upon connecting, the login instructions will give you help on creating your
own character...

Once you are connected, type "help introduction" and "help theme" to get a
better idea about the game.

What does this mean to anarchists or radicals out there?

I want to make this moo into a meeting ground for those with alternative
ideas of any sort.  I am working on interesting objects to make this place
interesting to people with similar beliefs to me.  This includes an online
alt.society.anarchy newsreader, a virtual library containing texts by
Chomsky, etc. and possibly a MOOgopher link with the gopherspace allowing us
to integrate the MOO with Real Life.

Come on over and visit!

-- 
"And men are men who till the land, and women are women who weave, fifty men
 own the lemon grove, and no man is a slave." -- Herbert Read

Comrade @ LambdaMOO (telnet lambda.parc.xerox.com 8888) daum@bode.ualberta.ca
From: seth@mivax.mc.duke.edu (SETH)
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy
Subject: Re: Controversy over definitions of terms
Date: 29 Dec 92 14:40:00 GMT
Organization: Duke University Medical Center
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Dec29.043217.29292@vela.acs.oakland.edu>, w2lee@argo.acs.oakland.edu writes...

>In article <1992Dec28.164941.3322@shearson.com>, pmetzger@snark.shearson.com (Perry E. Metzger) writes:

>Marketists point to the fact that leveraged dominance relationships are
>voluntarily contracted, while coerced ones (states) are not.  While I concede
>that point, I concede it to the extent of saying that private sector
>hierarchies are a "lesser evil" than public-sector ones.

This is no small concession!  And how can you argue with voluntary agreements
others make?  You are free to make (or not make) your own.

It ain't fair that some are born rich.
It ain't fair to steal from someone lucky enough to be born rich.
Life ain't fair.
What can we do? Nothing.  I'll take freedom over fairness any day.

Still, you do have much in common with "marketists": the abolition of 
government.   Government is, IMHO, one of the biggest problems and sources 
of misery facing humanity.  Anarchists have a common goal (enemy) here.  Once
we rid ourselves of gov't (yeah, right) we can quibble over the economic
and social details.  Till then, we have a common enemy. 

One of the great things about (utopian) anarchy is that there will be room
for ALL types of anarchists societies.  Hopefully they will stay out of 
each other's way (else they wouldn't be anarchist?).

Smile and be tolerant.  We're all right and we're all wrong.
From: seth@mivax.mc.duke.edu (Judge Not)
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy
Subject: Anarchy is a utopian ideal
Summary: Nope.
Date: 28 Dec 92 22:13:00 GMT
Organization: Duke University Medical Center
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Dec28.164941.3322@shearson.com>, pmetzger@snark.shearson.com (Perry E. Metzger) writes...

>Anarchy means, plain and simple, society without government.

BINGO!

Sociology, economics, rape, & fish are all seperate (but important) subjects.

I will admit the word "government" is a slippery fish.  If it acts like a
government and smells like a government and steals like a government and...

Since it may be impossible to eliminate all "fish" that act like governments,
one could argue that anarchy represents a utopian ideal that will never be
completely realized (interesting to note many fictional utopias are 
anarchistic). This does not mean anarchy isn't a useful goal to work for; 
progress towards anarchy is the least/most we can do.

Anarchy can exist in small, closed societies (like usenet?).  Implementing
total and global anarchy would probably entail "forcing" anarchy on some, 
which is of course a contradiction.  But even societies that have achieved
anarchy may need to use non-anarchist tactics to preserve their freedom
from outsiders.  

Life just ain't fair.  Our work is never done.
Anarchy is a progress, a journey, the path to freedom (like infinite freedom,
there is always a higher degree).
You can't get there from here.
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy
From: tonyd@lclark.edu (Anthony Davis)
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy
Subject: Re: Bob Black, cooperation vs. competition, &c.
Date: 30 Dec 92 05:24:54 GMT
Organization: Lewis & Clark College, Portland OR

about anarchism and police forces...
take a look at kerry thornley's Zenarchy...
total abolition of punishment.

very interesting theme.

i think that one can defend oneself, but that further than that is revenge.
soul-sullying, nasty stuff...

waiting for the permanent universal abolition of punishment,
tonyd
Xref: sparky alt.society.anarchy:970 alt.individualism:6156
From: triley@weber.ucsd.edu (Tristan Riley)
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy,alt.individualism
Subject: Re: Anarchy in Somalia
Date: 30 Dec 1992 17:27:56 GMT
Organization: University of California, San Diego
NNTP-Posting-Host: weber.ucsd.edu

In article <1992Dec30.125409.17617@panix.com> jk@panix.com (Jim Kalb) writes:
>triley@weber.ucsd.edu (Tristan Riley) writes:
>
>>ah, yes, for those old 'comic book' days [meant ironically] of Spain in
>>the mid 1930s and the Mahkonivist insurrection/commune in Russia in
>>1917 and the Ferrer Colony in New Jersey and a zillion small
>>collectives and communes in the '60s some spanning right up until
>>today.  good thing the 'realists' are around to let us all know how
>>utterly impossible it is to get along without a government unless (of
>>course) you just want to live like a bunch of savages--otherwise
>>someone might actually check the historical record and find otherwise.
>
>What historical record are you referring to?  The references to Spain
>and Russia look like references to the fish that got away.  I don't
>know anything about the Ferrer Colony, but the collectives and communes
>in this country that I do know about didn't work well or last long
>(a few religious communities may be exceptions).
>

these fish didn't get away, they were taken away by hostile
political regimes with more firepower.  it strikes me as a little
misleading to criticize social movements as somehow inadequate or
overly utopian/impossible when they've faced not only the difficulty
of initial organization but active (and often armed) resistance from
state police forces--and whenever they've decided to take up arms in
defense of what they had, repression has been massive.


  As for USENET,
>it's a great institution but not a complete social order.
what are you defining as "a complete social order"?  a nation-state
complete with political apparatus and civil society all neatly
separated?  if so, you've defined anarchy right out of existence by
fiat.  large scale 'communities' like states probably cannot be
participatory and unhierarchical except as free associations of
smaller collectives and communes.  

Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy
From: libwca@emory.edu (Bill Anderson)
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy
Subject: Re: Anarchy is a utopian ideal
Date: 30 Dec 92 16:42:37 GMT
Organization: Emory University, Atlanta, GA
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3

seth@mivax.mc.duke.edu (Judge Not) writes:
: 
: Since it may be impossible to eliminate all "fish" that act like governments,
: one could argue that anarchy represents a utopian ideal that will never be
: completely realized (interesting to note many fictional utopias are 
: anarchistic). This does not mean anarchy isn't a useful goal to work for; 
: progress towards anarchy is the least/most we can do.
:
Agreed.  I'd suggest, however, that if you're going to take this
gradualist approach, you select your targets very carefully.
Eliminating some forms of authority may strengthen other, more
dangerous forms, leading to a net increase in authority.  

Bill   
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy
From: seth@mivax.mc.duke.edu (Judge Not)
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy,alt.individualism,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.theory
Subject: Re: Anarchy in Somalia
Date: 29 Dec 92 14:09:00 GMT
Followup-To: alt.society.anarchy
Organization: Duke University Medical Center
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1hofpnINN1gf@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, bz269@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (James D. Del Vecchio) writes...

>In a previous article, pauls@css.itd.umich.edu (Paul Southworth) says:
>>225323.28356@vela.acs.oakland.edu> w2lee@argo.acs.oakland.edu:

>>Ain't that the truth.  The only way I have found to effectively deal with
>>this when talking to the theoretically uninitiated is to just say flat out
>>that there is no relation between Somalia and anarchy period end of story.
>>It sucks to have to be so closed about it, but I'm out of steam on it.

>	Gang rule & warring pseudo-governments.  Sounds like Somalia
>and sounds like anarchy.  Oh, you mean "there is no relation between
>Somalia and cool comic-book images of anarchy period end of story."
>If you meant that, then I agree 100%.

Someone has already pointed out *many* working and actual examples of anarchy.
I will add Viking Iceland (look it up!) and USENET (anarchy isn't chaos;
anarchy means no government and voluntary agreements are fine).

If Somalia were anarchy there wouldn't be "psuedo-governments", or the
ineffective "official" government.  I'll agree Somalia isn't ready for
anarchy since everyone is so poor and desperate. Besides, anarchy is a
rather utopian idea (causing some to discount it).  

Whether the RULERS call themselves government or not is irrelevant.
Anarchy means no one is forcing people to behave a certain way.

Somalia isn't anarchy.  It's chaos and distopia.
From: robohen@ocf.berkeley.edu (Henry Robertson)
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy
Subject: Anarchist Japanese cartoons for sale $1
Date: 26 Dec 1992 02:06:26 GMT
Organization: U. C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility
NNTP-Posting-Host: headcrash.berkeley.edu

Hahaha-ha, yes I plan to take over the world with my anarchist enterprise:

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Now that I have trimmed down by manga collection to only the very best,
I would like to share it with manga fans of the world.  By sending me
ONE DOLLAR, you get a 10-page sample of very rare, out-of-print works
by author Maruo Suehiro, with English subtitles.  One dollar is not a very
big risk to take, folks.  And I can promise you won't be disappointed by their
quality.  These very non-mainstream works are artistic, inspired, and 
bound to give you a crack-high.  So, if interested, send the cash or
money order in a self-addressed, stamped envelope to:

Henry Robertson
2206 Durant Ave. #5
Berkeley, CA 94704

Feel free to ask questions by e-mail.  I have a whole catalog here.
I'll be looking forward to your response....
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy
From: ALI00ERW@UNCCVM.UNCC.EDU
Subject: Re: : Looking for Anarchism refs to read
Organization: UNC Charlotte
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 14:49:17 GMT

If you're looking for good *fiction* about anarchism to read (I didn't
see the original request; maybe it got lost in all the bondage baloney!),
I would recommend The Dispossessed by Ursula LeGuin. Its about an anarchist
society that was exiled to the moon of the people's home planet (so they
would contaminate others with their ideas). But, people get all hung-up
on being politically correct and the society stagnates until this one guy
shakes things up a bit by promoting greater contact with the home planet.
 
This doesn't do justice to a really good book; you have to read it to
appreciate it. (and there's ***no*** bondage, either!!!).
 
Erin
 
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy
From: w2lee@argo.acs.oakland.edu (Walter Lee)
Subject: Re: Looking for Anarchism refs to read
Reply-To: w2lee@argo.acs.oakland.edu
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, MI
Distribution: alt
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 23:59:15 GMT

In article <1992Dec18.173908.27139@athena.mit.edu>, danny@athena.mit.edu (Daniel A Lagattuta) writes:
>In article <FAB9452.92Dec15164840@nigel.tamu.edu>, fab9452@nigel.tamu.edu (Allan Bailey) writes:
>|> 
>|>   could some post/email a "suggested reading list" about anarchism?
>|> 
>
>
>	How about Robert A. Heinlein's "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress," about a
>fictional anarchical society, Bruce Benson's "Enterprise of the Law" about
>non-governmental law and order, George Selgin's "Theory of Free Banking" about
>privatelt issued currency for starters. 
>
>
>					Daniel A. LaGattuta

(Well this is just great.  I endure HUNDREDS of STUPID articles cross posted
from alt.sex.bondage and one of the alt.society.anarchy regulars comes and
tells us to read a book about a Harsh Mistress...   :-)

"The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", like most of the Bob Heinlein books I've read,
is not about a fictional anarchical society.  It is about a fictional penal
colony that evolved into a center for destructive testing of human beings. 
Although Mike's payroll check stunt did have some _honestly_ anarchic
implications.

I'll look into the other works you mentioned.  The titles suggest secular
versions of the Calvinist rationalization of the Social Order:   "reward is its
own virtue".  But one should never judge a book by its cover, so I'll go and
see for myself.


Another literary tip... I haven't read the guy, but I've heard that Larry
Niven's worldview is even "harsher" then Heinlein's.

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Walter Lee                                          w2lee@argo.acs.oakland.edu

Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves.
                                -- Abraham Lincoln
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy
From: malloy@crash.cts.com (Sean Malloy)
Subject: Re: Looking for Anarchism refs to read
Organization: CTS Network Services (crash, ctsnet), El Cajon, CA
Distribution: alt
Date: 21 Dec 92 21:48:58 PST

In article <1992Dec21.235915.10521@vela.acs.oakland.edu> w2lee@argo.acs.oakland.edu writes:
>In article <1992Dec18.173908.27139@athena.mit.edu>, danny@athena.mit.edu (Daniel A Lagattuta) writes:
>>	How about Robert A. Heinlein's "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress," about a
>>fictional anarchical society, Bruce Benson's "Enterprise of the Law" about
>>non-governmental law and order, George Selgin's "Theory of Free Banking" about
>>privatelt issued currency for starters. 

>(Well this is just great.  I endure HUNDREDS of STUPID articles cross posted
>from alt.sex.bondage and one of the alt.society.anarchy regulars comes and
>tells us to read a book about a Harsh Mistress...   :-)
>
>"The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", like most of the Bob Heinlein books I've read,
>is not about a fictional anarchical society.  It is about a fictional penal
>colony that evolved into a center for destructive testing of human beings. 
>Although Mike's payroll check stunt did have some _honestly_ anarchic
>implications.

If you want a fictional anarchical society, you'd be a lot better off
reading L. Neil Smith's 'North American Confederacy' novels -- _The
Probability Broach_, _The Venus Belt_, _The Nagasaki Vector_, _Tom Paine
Maru_, _The Gallatin Divergence_, _Brightsuit MacBear_, _Taflak Lysandra_,
and _Their Majesty's Bucketeers_, as well as _Contact and Commune_ and
_Converse and Conflict_, two connected novels disjoint from the Confederacy
novels.


-- 
random sig #21:
 Sean Malloy        Navy Personnel R&D Center | 
                    San Diego, CA 92152-6800  | #define sysop GOD
 malloy@nprdc.navy.mil        < different     | #define reality NULL
 crash!malloy@nosc.navy.mil   < systems       | 
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy,alt.individualism
From: mrl28033@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Michael R Linksvayer)
Subject: Re: Anarchy in Somalia
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 09:47:12 GMT

In article <1992Dec30.125409.17617@panix.com> jk@panix.com (Jim Kalb) writes:
>The Icelandic sagas suggest that Viking Iceland had its problems if you
>don't like violent death.  Take a look at _Njal's Saga_ or _Laxdaela_
>Saga -- they're available in Penguin editions and are both great books
>apart from any relevance to the workability of anarchy.  

Actually Viking Iceland was probably not particularly violent.
The writers of the sagas did not record every single event in
the history of Iceland - only the interesting stuff, which
surprise, includes a lot of violence. I'm sure the same can be
said of most histories. The Bible for instance. See _The
Machinery of Freedom_, 2nd Edition, by David Friedman, pp.
206-7 for a discussion of this. Here's one paragraph:
 
 "A more careful reading of the sagas tells a different
 story. The violence, unlike that in contemporary
 accounts elsewhere in Europe, is on a very small
 scale.  The typical encounter in a saga feud involves
 only a handful of people on each side; everyone killed
 or injured is named. When two such encounters occur in
 consecutive chapters it seems as though the feuding is
 continual - until you notice that a character not yet
 born at the time of the first encounter is
 participating in the second as an adult.
 [...]
 To put the comparison in terms of contemporary
 societies, one may note that in three weeks of the year
 1066 Norway, Normandy, and England probably lost as
 large a fraction of their combined population to
 violence (in the battles of Fulford, Stamford Bridge,
 and Hastings) as Iceland did in fifty years of feuds."

>As for USENET, it's a great institution but not a complete social order.

As for the USA (or any state), it is not a complete social
order. People in the USA interact with people in the rest of the
world without any overlord state controlling everything. (I
won't however, claim that the USA is a great institution!)

-- 
Mike Linksvayer   m-linksvayer@uiuc.edu   +1 217 344 1326