HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: shaffer@achilles.ctd.anl.gov (Michael A. Shaffer)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: for Bruce Benning
Date: 9 Apr 92 17:29:56 GMT
Organization: Argonne National Laboratory

Sorry about posting this to the net but mail bounced.

Bruce, I noticed that when you refer to the Father you write G-d. I am
just curious as to why. It is related to the practise of the Jews of
not pronouning his holy name? Just curious.

				mike
From: etxtdi@diana4.ericsson.se (Tord Ivarsson TM/JLE 95406)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Armageddon NOW!
Date: 10 Apr 92 14:33:19 GMT
Organization: Ericsson Telecom AB, Stockholm, Sweden

In article <1992Apr2.183454.8609@news.eng.convex.com> swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren) writes:
>
>I'm sure you could find them if you looked hard
>enough; anti-Semitic tendencies are not strictly
>limited to the post-mill camp as some pre-mills have
>suggested.

I don't know who have suggested that, but an intelligent observer
must ask himself the question why it is just in the *Christian*
countries anti semitism has taken its most aggressive forms, or
even why ONLY there ? What in Christian theology is promoting
a condescending attityde towards the Jews.
 It seems that pre-millianism (belief that the arrival of Jesus is
after the millenium) is connected with the view that the Jews 
(the physical decendandts of Abraham) are today excluded from
any kind of covenant with G-d. It further seems that while the
Jews on there side surely believe in their covenant with G-d
of old, this has been the ground for tensions between these two
groups.  When you experience salvation through Jesus and the
undeserved grace having your sins forgiven and beeing filled
with the Spirit of G-d, that is a real thing ! 
Then when looking backwards on a terrible history of hostility
from various parts of the church and "the church", you enter
into a hardly solved conflict. 
 I can read with my eyes in the OT prophesies and I see that
G-d promised Israel to return to the land after a long time of
exile. I see it happen before my eyes (litterally) and it would
be stupid of my trying to apply this or that theology and
change what I see into something irrelevant, something which
actually doesn't happen, or just happens randomly without any
promotion from G-d. I just accept what G-d has said in his
Word. Should I be wrong, it really seemed like a fulfillment of
prophesy anyway !

Antisemitic individuals are found every here and there of
course, I am asking myself the question what has fostered
it, and how ?

/Tord Ivarsson
From: kjh@pollux.usc.edu (Kenneth J. Hendrickson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: date of Easter
Date: 10 Apr 1992 13:49:28 -0700
Organization: EE-Systems, USC, Los Angeles
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: pollux.usc.edu

From Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, 1973

Easter n [ME estre, fr. OE eastre; akin to OHG ostarun (pl.) Easter;
	both fr. the prehistoric W Gmc name of a pagan spring festival
	akin to OE east]:
	a feast that commemorates Christ's resurrection and is observed
	with variations of date due to different calendars on the first
	Sunday after the full moon on or next after March 21 or one week
	later if the full moon falls on Sunday.

So Bruce Benning was right.  If someone asks you when Easter is, you
should probably reply that you don't care about any pagan fertility
festivals, but that RESURRECTION DAY is 3 days after Pesach.

Shalom b'Shem Yeshua HaMashiach.
-- 
favourite oxymorons:   student athlete,   military justice,   civil war
Ken Hendrickson N8DGN/6       kjh@usc.edu      ...!uunet!usc!pollux!kjh
From: btiffany@pbs.org
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: pesach and easter (resurrection day)
Date: 15 Apr 92 15:13:16 GMT
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA

#1935

From: tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht)
Subject:Re: pesach and easter (resurrection day)
Date: 14 Apr 92 03:20:06 GMT

>There seems to be some evidence in the New Testament to justify a weekly
>observance of the Lord's Supper.  Certainly there is enough to justify
>observing it more often than yearly.
> 
>In Acts 2:42 it says, "And they [the disciples] were continually devoting
>themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of
>bread and to prayer."  The phrase "breaking of bread" would seem to be a
>reference to the Lord's Supper taken straight from Matthew 26:26 where
>Jesus "broke the bread."

Nope.  It just means they had meals together.  They were together all the
time, studying, fellowshipping, eating, and praying.

Not that there's anything wrong with communion, even if you call if "The
Lord's Supper".  It's a good tradition.  Do it as often as you like, and
don't condemn others who do it more or less frequently than you.

I don't see why there needs to be a conflict (except among those who wish
to build a "dividing wall" ...).  Yeshua and the talmidim were celebrating
a Pesach Seder.  The bread was matzah.  If Gentile Christians and even
Messianic Jews want to derive from that a communion tradition celebrated
more frequently than once a year, there's nothing wrong with that.  What's
wrong is when someone says such communion replaces the Biblical Pesach Seder.

>Of course there's also the fact that the annual feast days of the old
>covenant (including Passover) were fulfilled in Christ, and ended, since
>they were but shadows (cf. Col 2:16,17; Heb. 10:1).

The feasts are real.  Tom is a shadow.  He has been fulfilled in Christ,
and has ended.	;-}

-- Bruce Tiffany

     So they said to Him, "What should we do in order to perform the  works
     of  God?"  Yeshua answered, "Here's what the work of God is:  to trust
     in the One He sent!"

     They said to Him, "Nu, what miracle will You do for us, so that we may
     see  it and trust in You?  What work can you perform?  Our fathers ate
     manna in the desert -- as it says in the Tanakh, 'He gave  them  bread
     from heaven to eat.' Yeshua said to them, "Yes, indeed!  I tell you it
     wasn't Moshe who gave you the bread from heaven.   But  My  Father  is
     giving  you  the genuine bread from heaven; for God's bread is the One
     who comes down out of heaven and gives life to the world."

     They said to Him, "Sir, give  us  this  bread  from  now  on."  Yeshua
     answered, "I am the bread which is life!"
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: hamilton@hydra.cs.gmr.com (William E. Hamilton CS50 CS/50)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Armageddon NOW!
Date: 6 Apr 92 12:45:52 GMT
Reply-To: hamilton@gmr.com (William E. Hamilton CS50 CS/50)
Organization: GM Research Labs, Warren, MI

In article <1992Apr3.163258.13343@portland.mdc.unisys.com> tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht) writes:
>In article <1992Apr2.183454.8609@news.eng.convex.com> swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren) writes:
>>
>>God predestined and foreknew.
>
>Correct.  Cf. Romans 8:29ff.; 1 Peter 1:2.
>
>>We exercised our own free will.
>
>Where is this taught in the NT?  Where does the Bible teach that ANYONE
>come to Christ "of their own free will?"  In fact, where does the Bible
>define "free will" at all?  If you can produce Scripture to support the
>concept of "free will" then you can begin to make your case for
>Arminianism.  
>
Tom

I don't have a Westminster Confession here at work, but the Westminster 
Confession does say some things about free will and has scripture references 
to back them up. The one that seems applicable here is that when people come
to Christ it says something like "They come freely. They are not coerced."
It also makes clear that before they can come freely, the Holy Spirit prepares
them. So no one comes to Christ unless the Holy Spirit draws him, but the work 
of the Holy Spirit includes preparing them so they are able to make 
a choice they otherwise could not make. I apologize for giving a vague
reference to the Confession without the scripture, but what the Westminster
confession says on this issue was particularly crucial to the process I went
through in developing a good enough understanding of Calvinism that I could
in good conscience not only worship in, but be an elder in an Evangelical 
Presbyterian church. Possibly my own experience can help someone else.
My own position is that I hate labels. I am a Christian who has more sympathy
with Calvinism than the other isms, but I submit that the people who
cause the most trouble for the Body of Christ are the ones who take the
extreme positions on issues theologians have been unable to agree on.

Bill Hamilton
From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: term paper
Date: 8 Apr 92 17:03:27 GMT
Distribution: alt
Organization: University of Turku

I have a course in US Culture and I should write for it a short paper.
I'd like to do it on Messianic Judaism in America. If anybody knows any
books, newspaper articles etc. written about it, please send the references
through e-mail. Thanks.
 
/Laura
--
"Ve'ahavta et YHVH Eloheicha bechol-levavcha uv'chol-nafshecha
uv'chol-me'odecha" (Deut. 6:5)

Loving truth is loving God.
From: hamilton@hydra.cs.gmr.com (William E. Hamilton CS50 CS/50)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Armageddon NOW!
Date: 16 Apr 92 12:17:21 GMT
Reply-To: hamilton@hydra.UUCP (William E. Hamilton CS50 CS/50)
Organization: GM Research Labs, Warren, MI

In article <1992Apr15.062732.3336@ericsson.se> etxtdi@diana4.ericsson.se (Tord Ivarsson TM/JLE 95406) writes:
>
>How strange then that it was the people from the post-millenialists
>camp who always performed the persecusion.
>
I don't think persecution of the Jews was "always" performed by "people 
from the post-millenialist camp" In fact, as I've pointed out, the
French Calvinists of the village of LeChambon protected approximately
5000 Jews from the Nazi death camps. This is documented in a film, "Weapons
of the Spirit," directed by Pierre Sauvage, himself a Jew who is
alive today because of the efforts of these people. I'm not claiming that
the citizens of LeChambon are postmillenialists, but they are Calvinists,
as are postmillenialists. As Calvinists, they view the church as the "New
Israel" and thus espouse the "replacement theology" that concerns MJ's (at 
least some MJ's). The videotape can be ordered from your local video
store for $59.95. So far I haven't found a video store which has it for
rent. So what's the point? That a community of people who share much 
of the theology of the postmillenialists protected Jews from the Nazis.

Antisemitism is a perversion of Christianity wherever it occurs, and it 
has admittedly occurred in a wide variety of "christian" communities
over the years. But some Christians have also tried to protect Jews,
and some of the Christians who did ended up in the Nazi death camps.

Bill Hamilton
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: b_robinson@tamar.compserv.utas.edu.au
Subject: Re: Pesach and Easter
Organization: University of Tasmania at Launceston
Date: 7 Apr 92 12:17:01 +1000

In article <ku1hg2INNapf@pollux.usc.edu>, kjh@pollux.usc.edu (Kenneth J. Hendrickson) writes:
> In article <1992Apr6.130123.1@tamar.compserv.utas.edu.au> b_robinson@tamar.compserv.utas.edu.au writes:
>>Looking at the calendar last night, I noticed that the Passover falls on Easter
>>this year (i.e. they coincide).
> 
> Shouldn't they *always* coincide?
> 
Yes, IMHO, but as far as I know they normally don't -- see the rest of my
posting.

> -- 
> favourite oxymorons:   student athlete,   military justice,   civil war
> Ken Hendrickson N8DGN/6       kjh@usc.edu      ...!uunet!usc!pollux!kjh

Barrie.
From: btiffany@pbs.org
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Paul (was Re: (Breaking the) Sabbath)
Date: 13 Apr 92 14:57:17 GMT
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA

#1896

From: tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht)
Subject:Re: Paul (was Re: (Breaking the) Sabbath)
Date: 8 Apr 92 19:15:57 GMT

>In Daniel 7 we read:
> 
>  I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came
>  with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought
>  him near before him.
>  And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all
>  people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an
>  everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which
>  shall not be destroyed.
> 
>Christians believe this vision was fulfilled when Jesus rose from the dead
>and was seated at the right hand of the Father following His ascension.

Don't lie to the man, Tom.  Saying "Christians believe this vision was
fulfilled" is just as dishonest as the Rabbinic Jews saying "Jews don't
believe [fill in the blank]".  If you want to say "SOME Christians", and
the RJ's want to say "SOME Jews", that's OK.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

     /\
____/__\____		Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth and
\  / || \  /		the life; no one comes to the Father, but
 \/--++--\/		through Me."
 /\  ||  /\
/  \ || /  \					-- John 14:6
----\--/----
     \/			-- Bruce Tiffany
From: tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: pesach and easter (resurrection day)
Date: 14 Apr 92 03:20:06 GMT
Organization: Unisys - Applied Technology

In article <STUCKI.92Apr11133800@retina.cis.ohio-state.edu> stucki@retina.cis.ohio-state.edu (David J Stucki) writes:
>
>Actually, this idea has been rolling around insode my head for several years.
>I asked my Pastor, several elders in my church, and my parents (who are
>deeply involved in Jewish and messianic ministry) and none of them could find
>any Biblical support for the church tradition of "communion" as a 
>daily/weekly/monthly ritual. Based on my inquiries and what I felt the
>Lord was calling me to do, I have stopped participating in my church's
>monthly "communion" service (with the sanction of my Pastor) and only observe
>the last supper as a natural part of the passover Seder.

There seems to be some evidence in the New Testament to justify a weekly
observance of the Lord's Supper.  Certainly there is enough to justify
observing it more often than yearly.

In Acts 2:42 it says, "And they [the disciples] were continually devoting
themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of
bread and to prayer."  The phrase "breaking of bread" would seem to be a
reference to the Lord's Supper taken straight from Matthew 26:26 where
Jesus "broke the bread."

There is also the matter of I Cor. 11.  Paul goes to great lengths to
correct the error of the Corinthian church regarding the abuse of the
Lord's Supper.  The circumstances indicate that this was something observed
"often" (verse 26).  It doesn't seem that Paul would need to bother himself
with something that only happened once a year in such a forceful way.

This was certainly the interpretation of the church from the earliest days
forward.

Of course there's also the fact that the annual feast days of the old
covenant (including Passover) were fulfilled in Christ, and ended, since
they were but shadows (cf. Col 2:16,17; Heb. 10:1).

-- 
Tom Albrecht
From: btiffany@pbs.org
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Persecution of Jews
Date: 7 Apr 92 13:29:26 GMT
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA

#1807

>Subject: Persecution of Jews
>From: tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht)
>Date: 30 Mar 92 20:51:26 GMT

>The Bible teaches that Christians have a connection to those who are "in
>Christ."

It's a good thing Corrie ten Boom didn't have this attitude.

You never answered me and Daniel Segard regarding who "the least of these
My brethren" are.

>On the other hand, Christians should oppose the persecution of ALL PEOPLE,
>not just Jews.  When Arabs are persecuted, we should speak out.  When
>homosexuals are persecuted, we should speak out.  When gypsies are
>persecuted, we should speak out.  When the unborn are persecuted and
>killed, we should speak out.  Jews are not better humans than these others,
>therefore, they are not more deserving of our love and protection.

Does this mean you will speak out when the Jews are persecuted, even if
some of the persecutors are part of the Church?

>If we implemented the law of love as defined by Jesus (instead of just
>talking about it), we would not need to differentiate between Jews and
>non-Jews when it comes to persecution.  The only way to end the persecution
>is for the persecutors (both Jews and non-Jews)  to become converted to
>Christ.

But in the meantime, while the persecutors do the bidding of their father
the devil, what will you do?  (Be sure of your reply, because you will have
the opportunity to make good on what you say.)

>>Sid Roth compares Esther to the Church (by which he means the real Christians,
>>not what Jews perceive to be "the Church"):  they have a critical function
>>to perform in saving the Jews from what is about to happen.  That's the
>>essential message of the book TIME IS RUNNING SHORT.
> 
>And how precisely does the Church act like Esther to protect the Jews?  I
>would assume the only way to accomplish this task is to convert the
>persecutors.  No?

Is that what Esther did?

>>Personally, I don't think outright persecution will begin this year, but I
>>do see things coming into place more and more.  I've been expecting it to
>>begin in earnest no earlier than 1993.
> 
>Got your new crystal ball polished?  ... We'll see how well you do.  By
>God's grace I'll be around in 1993 to do a sanity check.

I said I expected it NO EARLIER than 1993.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

     /\			I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power
____/__\____		of God for salvation to every one who believes, to the
\  / || \  /		Jew first and also to the Greek.  For in it the
 \/--++--\/		righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith;
 /\  ||  /\		as it is written, "But the righteous man shall live
/  \ || /  \		by faith."
----\--/----						-- Romans 1:16-17
     \/			-- Bruce Tiffany
From: etxtdi@diana4.ericsson.se (Tord Ivarsson TM/JLE 95406)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Armageddon NOW!
Date: 13 Apr 92 06:37:31 GMT
Organization: Ericsson Telecom AB, Stockholm, Sweden

In article <1992Apr10.143319.13944@ericsson.se> etxtdi@diana4.ericsson.se (Tord Ivarsson TM/JLE 95406) writes:
>In article <1992Apr2.183454.8609@news.eng.convex.com> swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren) writes:
>>
>>I'm sure you could find them if you looked hard
>>enough; anti-Semitic tendencies are not strictly
>>limited to the post-mill camp as some pre-mills have
>>suggested.
>
> It seems that pre-millianism (belief that the arrival of Jesus is
>after the millenium) is connected with the view that the Jews 
>(the physical decendandts of Abraham) are today excluded from
>any kind of covenant with G-d.

The intelligent observer must of course realize tha I meant post-
millenialism.

/Tord
From: btiffany@pbs.org
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Response to Rob Strom and Introduction
Date: 7 Apr 92 13:32:19 GMT
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA

#1839

>Subject: Re: Response to Rob Strom and Introduction
>From: strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom)
>Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1992 19:58:13 GMT

>What upset me and my wife was not that her brother and sister
>became Christians, but the circumstances under which they
>did so.  My brother-in-law was converted at a time when
>he was going through a great psychological upheaval, was
>neither strong nor knowledgeable, and was very vulnerable.
>He then converted his sister who was not yet a teenager
>and also very vulnerable to his messages about hell.
>I don't consider that either made an informed decision
>to change religions.

Since your religion is only an intellectual thing in your head, I can
understand why you think this way.  And you won't understand it any better
until your heart of stone is taken away, and replaced with a heart of
flesh.  This is my earnest prayer for you, Rob.

>This aspect of evangelism which targets the
>young and vulnerable and plays on their fears
>rather than on their understanding is something
>which I still cannot accept.

I wasn't there, so I cannot say whether they acted in impropriety.

In any case, you ought to refer to the Tanakh for all the warnings about
the rewards of disobedience.  Gehenna is real, and those whose sin has not
been blotted out, whose names are not in the Book of Life, will end up there.
The fact that you choose not to believe that doesn't make it untrue.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

     /\			And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal
____/__\____		life, and this life is in His Son.  He who has the Son
\  / || \  /		has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does
 \/--++--\/		not have the life.
 /\  ||  /\						-- 1 John 5:11-12
/  \ || /  \
----\--/----		-- Bruce Tiffany
     \/
From: tom@portland.mdc.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: pesach and easter (resurrection day)
Date: 8 Apr 92 15:58:52 GMT
Organization: Unisys - Applied Technology

In article <9204071421.AA25403@abvax.icd.ab.com> BENNING@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com.mu.edu writes:
>
> Some people do seem confused. When asked what day EASTER falls on, I
> respond, "If you mean the RESURRECTION Day, it falls a few days after
> the Passover. If you mean the celebration of SPRING, I don't really 
> know."

What is RESURRECTION Day?  Is this an annual feast day commanded to be
observed in the Bible?  I must have missed that commandment.  Where
is it found?

-- 
Tom Albrecht
From: btiffany@pbs.org
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Breaking the Sabbath ( was Re: Question for Rob Levene)
Date: 14 Apr 92 13:44:26 GMT
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA

#1921

>Subject: Breaking the Sabbath ( was Re: Question for Rob Levene)
>From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
>Date: Sat, 11 Apr 92 23:42:55 -0400

>> On March 23, 1992, at 20:21, I asked Rob Levene to document his claim that
>> Yeshua advocated rejection of major parts of Torah.  Perhaps he is busy
>> assembling that documentation.  But just in case it slipped through the
>> cracks -- I know we have experienced problems with disappearing posts
>> before -- I am reproducing my post below.
> 
>I can't find my post either, but I recall writing it.  I post via
>Reply-To: so maybe it was sent to the person to whom I was following
>up.
> 
>Anyway, my major points were:
> 
>1.  One may heal a sick person in danger on the Sabbath.  Jesus
>    knew this law, as he described how one must rescue an
>    endangered person on the Sabbath.  In my response, I
>    said that I wasn't sure if dropsy qualifies as a
>    dangerous illness.
> 
>2.  A blind person is not considered sick.
> 
>3.  Praying for recovery is standard practice.  But one may
>    not heal someone who is not in danger; this is in the
>    category of grinding, as delineated in Misnha Shabbath 7:2,
>    I believe.
> 
>4.  Another "av melacha" (one of the 39 prohibited categories of
>    action on Shabbath) is kneading.  When Jesus made a paste
>    and applied it to the blind man's eyes, he was in direct
>    violation of this category.

I don't believe any of this is in the Torah.  If it is, I don't remember
seeing it.  Could you please post the references?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
		Surely our griefs He Himself bore, and our sorrows He carried;
     /\		... He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was
____/__\____	crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being
\  / || \  /	fell upon Him, and by His scourging we are healed.  All of us
 \/--++--\/	like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own
 /\  ||  /\	way; but the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on
/  \ || /  \	Him. ... By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will
----\--/----	justify the many, as He will bear their iniquities.
     \/							-- Isaiah 53
		Bruce Tiffany