From: marcogan@student.anu.edu.au (Mark Cogan)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: White vs. Black Dragon Kung Fu
Followup-To: rec.martial-arts
Date: 12 Oct 1992 04:25:04 GMT
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In article <5408@krafla.rhi.hi.is>, hhv@rhi.hi.is (Eldark) wrote: 
> I asked my Kimewaza sensei about the orign of this art, he told me
> the following:
> 
> - In around 400 A.C. there was a monk called Boddidarhma developing
>   martial arts in India.
> - He travelled to China carrying the wisdom of Buddism and his martial
>   arts style with him.

This is pretty well generally accepted as true, I think.

> - [Either in China or Japan] the art split into several parts, the
>   two most powerful were:
>   White Dragon Kung Fu and Black Dragon Kung Fu.
> - Black Dragon Kung Fu became the art of the Ninja, those who 
>   use the black power.
> - White Dragon Kung Fu became Kimewaza, the white art of defence.

Now it sounds like a very bad movie plot.

>   [I think the Kimewaza name comes from China].

I doubt it. 'kimewaza' is a Japanese word, and the Japanese language
(although it borrows from Chinese) is more closely related to the
Uro-Altaic languages (Turkish, Mongolian, etc.) than it is to the Mon-Khmer
languages (Mandarin & numerous others).

'Black dragon' in Chinese is something like 'Hong Long" (mandarin)
'White Dragon' is something like 'Bei Long' (mandarin) or 'Bai
Lung'(cantonese)

The word for 'dragon' in Japanese is (I think) 'Tatsu'.

> - It is VERY hard to trace the lineage of Kimewaza, it seems to have

My, that sounds convenient, doesn't it...

>   disappeared a couple of centuries ago.  The only real reference to
>   it are on old scrolls and perhapps in a few books in Japanese libraries.  
> - The art of kimewaza is based on the four elements.  Each element

Which four elements? The Classical four-element system
(earth,air,fire,water) is Greek; the Chinese and Japanese use five-element
systems (earth, wood, metal, fire, water). 

Not many things in chinese martial arts are based on the number four.
Three, five (five elements, five Shaolin animals), seven, eight (eight
trigrams), nine (three times three), twelve (twelve Hsing-I animals), and
various multiples of eight and nine (e.g, 64 movements in some Pa Kua
forms, 72 or 108 movements in farious T'ai Chi forms)

>   having a different style.
>  
> My sensei is doing a research on Kimewaza himself.  He has an Icelandic
> translation of "JUDO" by R.Bowen and H.M.Hodkinson, there Kimewaza was
> mentioned but no bibliography was given, so the source of the information
> can not be traced.  He would be grateful if anyone having the orignal
> copy of the book could look for a bibliography and inform us if found.
> 
> My sensei learned the art from a Chinese teacher.  He says the name
> Kimewaza is an old name, not some fancy title made up here in Iceland!
> [To Dominik Zemmler: You say the art originates from Iceland, did you
> base this on the fact that your teacher was Icelandic?  In my opinion
> that is not a reasoning].
>  
> I'd want to know if anyone is familiar with the White vs. Black Dragon
> Kung Fu branching of martial arts.  Those of you studying the art of 

I have never heard of either 'white dragon' or 'black dragon' kung fu
styles.

> the Ninja, do you recall the Black Dragon Kung Fu as a name for the art?
> 
> From the information I've gathered so far,  Kimewaza seems to be a generec 
> term for martial-arts defense styles.  How does that sound?
> 
> Thanks for your interest,

Sigh. Please take what I am about to say as critical only of the supposed
history of 'kimewaza', not of the art itself. As you have told us little
about how it is taught, or what is taught, an as I am just about as far
away from Iceland as one can be and still be on the same planet, I have no
way of asessing its merits as a martial art.

The history sounds like manure to me. Firstly, the four-element system is a
European thing, not a Chinese (or even Indian) thing. Second, the black-
versus- white divergence seems very hokey and Hollywood. I'm pretty sure
that the Chinese (and perhaps the Japanese as well) do not associate white
with 'good' and black with 'evil'. Third, you are yet to mention any actual
_Chinese_ terms in your description of these 'kung fu' styles. Fourth, if
the only reference to the stly is in a (slightly obsucre) book on _JUDO_ (a
Japanese combat _sport_ invented in the last century) witten by two
europeans, I'd start thinking seriously about the validity of your
teacher's (or your teacher's teacher's) claims.

I don't mean to discourage you from studying Martial Arts (anything but!).
However, there are a lot of shysters out there; be careful!

-Mark.
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts