From: kdw@icd.ab.com (Kenneth D. Whitehead)
Subject:  Re: Clinton/Fonda
Organization: Allen-Bradley Company, Inc.
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 15:10:51 GMT

Like I said, Russell, I don't intend to let you bait me on this.
Nonetheless I do have some comments to your observations:

kw> ...  and I can honestly tell you
kw> that *I* didn't want to go when I was called, back in '66, and the 
kw> reason was real simple:  I was afraid.  So was everybody else I knew
kw> that was draft bait.  The "I want to beat the draft BECAUSE OF MY 
kw> OPPOSITION TO THE WAR" stuff didn't become fashionable for another 
kw> couple of years. 

>>I appreciate your candor, but I disagree with your notion that 
>>everyone reacted, as you did, simply because of fear.  

No Russell, I didn't react simply because of fear.  I reacted IN SPITE of
it.  And now I don't have to apologize to anybody, or make excuses for
why I didn't go, like Slick Willie is going to have to do.  I can be right
up front with people when I tell them I was afraid.  And frankly, I think
anybody who says they weren't was either crazy or lying.  Most of the
guys I know who served were pretty forthright about having such feelings.
The only ones I know who try to say, "Oh, no I WASN'T AFRAID, JUST OPPOSED
TO THE WAR", were draft dodgers.  And _lots_ of them were just trying to
excuse their own fear.

See, cowardice isn't the same thing as fear.  I'll leave it up to you to
try to figure out the difference.  And frankly, I have no problem with
the fact that some folks avoided the draft (except, of course, for the
fact that somebody had to go in their place.  I wonder if some farm
kid from Arkansas had to go in Clinton's place, and never made it home?)
I just don't buy their rationalizations for why they ran from it.  It
would be a lot easier for me to accept if they'd be up front about
the fact that they were afraid of dying than trying to tell me they
did it because of "courage" and "convictions".  I can understand
being afraid of dying, and I can understand being afraid of having
to kill.  Hell, I can even understand not wanting to go just because
I'd have to leave my girlfriend behind for a year, not knowing if I'd
ever see her again, or if she'd be there when i got back.  I can understand 
all kinds of fears related to war that you probably can't even imagine.  
Being afraid of war is the most natural thing in the world, IMHO.


>Some folks 
>were opposed to the war because they considered the United 
>>States' involvement in Vietnam to be grossly immoral.  

Yeah, I know, but for the most part, this phenom didn't become the norm
until 1968, after TET and the news of the Mai Lai massacre hit the
news.  Back when I went in, most of the people who dodged the draft
did it quietly, like the guy across the street who got a shot from
his doctor to give him a heart murmer when he went in for his draft 
physical.  Opposition to the war didn't become the standard excuse
until later.  (I don't mean to imply that all those who dodged the
draft did so out of a desire to protect their own hides;  but having
been there at the time, I can tell you that a lot of them did. Why
can't you accept this?  Are we talking about your father or something?)


>>It's been 
>>my experience, over the years, that most of the americans who 
>>could not understand such opposition were either unaware of the 
>>historical and political realities, and/or insensitive to the 
>>forces that were driving vietnamese nationalism. 


No, I understand all that.  I majored in Political Science after 
I got out, and I studied the subject pretty extensively.  I also
got a lot of first hand insights that you probably aren't privy to.
Hey, how old are you anyway?  Do you remember any of this, or did you
just read about/become influenced by left-wing college professors
trying to justify their own unwillingness to serve?


>>Had you been more familiar with the historical facts, and less 
>>embued with the propaganda about "communist aggression" that was 
>>still commonplace in '66, is it possible that you would have 
>>joined the ranks of the protestors?  Or, are you one of those 
>>americans who endorsed the slogan, "My country, right or wrong"?


No, I have to admit that I questioned the war, even as I was in the 
service.  I remember thinking that if I was Vietnamese and I had a 
bunch of foriegn soldiers in my country killing people, I'd probably
have joined the NLF.  And after the war, I was active for awhile in
trying to end it, not because I believed the propaganda  calling
us baby killers, but because I just didn't want any more of my friends 
to die fighting on behalf of Saigon "cycle cowboys" who let us do their
fighting for them, or on behalf of people in the US who spit on us 
for serving (you know, the ones you're defending). 

>>Honor and duty to what, Ken?   The use of military force to bolster up
>>a corrupt dictatorship that opposed the very principles on which the US
>>was founded?  Or, do you owe your honor and duty to concepts like 
>>honesty, freedom, and self-determination, as I do?


Like I said in my original posting, I didn't think honor and duty were
concepts you'd be able to understand. They have nothing whatsoever to
do with avoiding service to one's country when called upon.  And the
South Vietnamese we sought to defend could probably tell you a few
things about "freedom" and "self-determination".  Talk to a few boat
people; ask them about the "re-education camps". 


>>I'd be happy to recommend some books about Vietnamese history.  
>>Perhaps if you knew more about the background of the conflict, 
>>you'd be able to understand the people you're criticizing.  

Thanks Russell, but I probably know more about this than you
do, and you can keep your patronizing comments for people who
appreciate them (if there are any who do).

>>Yet, you seem to think it's not offensive to toss around labels
>>like "traitor" and "coward".  

I called Jane Fonda  a traitor because of specific activities she 
engaged in, not just her opposition to the war.  She bonded to an
enemy that was fighting against he countrymen.  She actively supported 
and provided assistance to the enemy of her countrymen.  She committed
treason.  That makes he a traitor.  Sorry if that doesn't sit well with
you.

>>What exactly is it that you find
>>offensive about the term, "good german"?   

The phrase refers to those germans who feigned ignorance at the
holocaust.  I object to the comparison.  But on the other hand,
it's typical of some of the crap we had to deal with when we got
home.  And in a lot of ways, coming home was harder than being there.
Stuff like that, usually delivered at the hands of some pampered
weenie who'd managed to hide from the draft, is the reason that for 
years, I never even told people I'd been there. (Am I talking about 
you, Russell?  Are you old enough to speak about this from experience,
or are you just as full of crap as usual?  What did you do during 
Viet Nam, Russell?  Were you hiding out, or just too young that
it didn't matter?  It's obvious you never served.  Do you have ANY first 
hand knowledge abut this, or only what you've read?  If the latter 
is the case, all I can tell you is that you only read part of the 
story.)


>>Phrases like "god,
>>home, and country" and "law and order" were just as popular in
>>germany in the early 1940's as their english equivalents were
>>in the US in the late 60's.   Do you understand why many europeans,
>>back in the mid-60's, openly compared US policies in vietnam to
>>the policies of the SS in conquered segments of europe?

Yeah, I did some of that myself.  I always maintained that we
probably created more VC than we ever killed.  Let's face it, Russ.
The war sucked.  Most of them do.  Sometimes they happen.  At the
time, we didn't have an all-volunteer armed forces.  I was called.
I didn't want to go, but I figured that was the case with most of
the people who went. Because I lived here in this country, enjoyed
her benefits, and was born with an obligation to serve on her behalf,
I didn't run away when I was required to serve.  That's what duty is
about.  Please don't compare me to the SS for having served my 
country in one of her wars.

>>In my opinion, it took a lot more courage and patriotism for Jane 
>>Fonda and Bill Clinton and Daniel Ellsberg to stand up for the 
>>principles that they believed in, than it took for "good germans" 
>>to blindly carry out a set of policies that were founded on 
>>ignorance, deceit, and prejudice.  

1.  Ellsburg.  I agree.  There was no reason for him to personally fear
    going to fight, so I don't find his motivations at all suspect...

2.  Clinton.  I have questions about him.  He obviously tried to avoid
    serving, and like I say, I understand why.  But as far as this being
    something that he did out of "courage" and "patriotism"...  Well, if
    he'd stuck to his guns on it, instead of waffling back and forth
    in order to "maintain his political viability", as he put it at the
    time, I guess I'd be more convinced.  I think he just didn't want
    to have to serve, and his waffling shows that his "principles"
    were something he was more than willing to compromise on.

3.  Fonda.  This is the same person who refused to criticize the Khmer Rouge
    when the stories of their "killing field" atrocities became public
    knowledge, saying something to the effect of, "I don't think that it's
    appropriate to criticize "progressive regimes".  (I heard her say this
    on TV, I'm not making it up or telling you about something I've only 
    gotten second-hand.)  The same person who said about Communism "if
    people only understood what Communism was really all about, you'd
    pray for the day that America becomes Communist."  (These aren't
    exact quotes, but the substance of the statements are accurate.)  Of 
    course, maybe you'd agree with these statements, I don't know.  Care to
    try to defend them?  Since you want to compare Viet Nam veterans to Nazis,
    how about if we deal with Traitor Jane's warm, fuzzy feelings about Joseph
    Stalin's party?  Is this REALLY worthy of honor?  Why do you PERSONALLY 
    feel a need to come to her defense?  Are YOU anti-American/pro-communist?

And if you think ANY of these people showed more "courage" than the men and
women who put their own fears aside and went into harm's way in response
to their country's call, I just don't quite know what to say about it.

I've always considered such statements to be nothing but cheap excuses
for people trying to rationalize their own unwillingness to put themselves
at risk on behalf of their country.  I really don't think it required ANY 
courage to hide from service to one's country, although I don't hold any
particular rancor toward those who did so.  I just object to treating
those people as if they did something honorable.  And I CERTAINLY
don't think such a person (like Clinton) could ethically EVER order others
into combat, unless he leads them into battle himself.  And fat chance of
that happening.  And if he has to sends troops to war, what will he be
able to say if some of them "just say no"?  "Do as I say, not as I did"?
And PLEASE don't try to tell me that he won't because he's not a warmongering
Republican;  LBJ was my commander in chief.

OK, Russ.  These are my last words on this subject.  Go ahead and have the
last word if you must.  Show us what you're made of.





















 
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