HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Ann.Feeney@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Ann Feeney)
Subject: Re: Rhetoric
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 17:15:29 GMT

In article <3429@creatures.cs.vt.edu> jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter) writes:
>Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn.  You know, I was in a pretty
>good mood today, until I read this:
>
>>                    Those who fail to goose-step to the turn of the rigid 
>>reproduction of life in the Old Middle-Ages are persecuted.
>
>You know, I was kind of hoping we'd gotten rid of the Nazi cracks, at least
>for a while.  Just this afternoon, I have read SCAdians on the net calling
>each other bigots, homophobes, and now "goose-steppers".  How about let's
>try to de-escalate the rhetoric a little?
>
>In Service to the Society,
>
>-- Angharad/Terry

"Duck-steppers" better?  "Gosling-steppers"?  (Actually, that sounds
worse--like someone who steps _on_ goslings!)  "Emu-steppers?"

BTW--_not_ intended to poke fun at Angaharad's plea for de-escalated
rhetoric--poking fun at the mental image that "goose-stepper" created in
my admittedly twisted mind.  I _agree_ with the most estimable Angaharad
that using the least inflammatory language possible (that still retains
meaning) provokes the least possible number of flames!

Enid
--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Colored tape
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 18:43:21 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!  Anatar wrote:

> Most medieval armies dressed and spoke very differently ...

The evidence you gave in the next few sentences may prove that _some_
medieval armoies dressed and spoke differently, but I don't think the
generalization is true.  How much difference was there between an army of
Yorkshiremen and an army of Lowland Scotsmen (who spoke almost exactly the
same language)?  How much difference between Welshmen and Shropshiremen?
Flemings and Picards?  English Gascons and French Gascons?  Many, if not
most medieval wars were local affairs, not international conflicts; I do
not believe that commanders could have relied on style of dress and
language to effectively distinguish their own men from the enemy.

I think you are right to believe that medieval armies must have had some
way to tell each other apart, and I basically agree that the particular
identifying insignia that you listed were probably not what they used: We
know that medieval armies generally did not have anything like uniforms, so
tabards are not likely to be the medieval answer.  Small insignia have the
obvious problem of being small and hard to see, so torques and badges
don't seem probable either.  I believe that one part of the answer is
battlecries.  There is a great deal of evidence that they were very widely
used as a means of identification in medieval warfare; SCA fighters hardly
use them at all.

I posted my note on this subject for two reasons: I couldn't think of the
medieval solution, and it was clear that our current approach discourages
us from trying to figure out what it was.  I believe that we could find
medieval solutions to the problem which are just as effective as colored
tape, but I don't think that will ever happen if we continue to rely on
that modern solution.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: The cost of sites
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 00:16:16 GMT

This is a note on a side issue relating to the thread on teh cost of
sites--as compared to Pennsic.

There are site owners who will look upon the SCA as a cash-cow.  We
had one out here.  In the last year he has learned mildly expensive
lesson.  He wanted to significantly raise the fee for a site we had
used with some regularity.  The lesson that was driven home was--he
can make a reasonable profit at a time his campsite would otherwise be
empty (we're happy to use it out of season), or hacan make *nothing*
on that date (we won't pay excessive rates).

There is value (to the SCA) is keeping one's options open.  *Always*
keep your eyes open for new sites--even when you like the ones you
have.

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright)
Subject: Re: Pentacles
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 18:54:06 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.


Raedwynn aet thaem Grene Wudu (Judith L. Tabron) writes:

>And not being able to display a pentacle means that I do _not_ have all the
>rights and priveleges that you list as available to anyone else. I cannot
>decorate my person or possessions with the designs of my choice.

Yes, but no one said you weren't allowed to display a pentacle.  In
fact, people have stated over and over again that you *are* allowed
to.  The only thing you cannot do is get the College of Arms to
*register* a device or badge containing a pentacle.  You can
decorate your person or possessions with all the pentacles you 
like.  You don't even have to show that the pentacle is period
in order to do this.  You can probably even display unregistered
arms with a pentacle and get away with it.  (At TFYC, I saw a
shield blazoned with a pacman insignia, and I'm pretty sure that
was not registered.)

-- Nicholas van Leyden
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: leighann@sybase.com (Leigh Ann Hussey)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Baby Announcement!
Date: 9 Sep 92 22:33:43 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Tealach Rois Dubh

Congratulations to the proud parents!  However, I am reminded now of
Bertram and his lady (whose name I do not know).  Hai, Bertram!  That
little one see daylight yet?

	- Siobhan


----------------
Leigh Ann Hussey 		leighann@sybase.com
Siobhan ni hEodhusa, ORL, OGB, etc.
Argent, a pale vert, surmounted in base by a lion dormant or, on a chief
wavy vert an Irish harp or.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: sharons@juliet.ll.mit.EDU (Sharon Stanfill)
Subject: pentacles on arms
Organization: The Internet
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 15:52:53 GMT


Can someone (Tibor?) post any actual rulings on the
subject of pentacles on arms?  It seems to me that
there are several arguments, both pro and con on the
subject, all going on at once.  I can agree with 
points on both sides, but without knowing the
explicit reasons given for banning pentacles, I
find it difficut to argue the issue.  My own assumption
has always been that the pentacle was banned 
because it lead to too many problems with folks
outside the SCA jumping to the wrong conclusions.

Nesta ferch Meriadoc Hartley
Carolingia, EK
sharons@juliet.ll.mit.edu
From: DAVID@bmeucl.medcor.mcgill.ca
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Music
Date: 9 Sep 92 17:40:00 GMT
Organization: The Internet

Esmeralda mentioned that there is much scope for creativity in
the performance of period music:

} One can
} work with intrumentation, tempo, volume (to some extent), etc. to create
} a unique piece of music. Performers, working independently, may create an
} entirely different mood and feel with the same piece of music. And thus,
} creativity is not stifled by simply using already written music.

Not to mention adding ornamentation, playing divisions, or just plain 
improvising over a ground -- all period practices that were expected of 
any half-way competent musician.

Dafydd y Peireannydd
From: greg@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Hossein Ali Qomi (mka Gregory F. Rose))
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Editorial Board Wanted (was Modest Proposal)
Date: 12 Sep 92 02:51:23 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.sca
Organization: The Rialto

Unto the good gentles of the Rialto does Hossein Ali Qomi send greetings
and prayers for the blessings of Allah.

I sympathise with Solveig's desire to encourage a higher standard of
scholarship in the society.  However, I wonder whether the _Studia Antiqua_
proposal is somewhat misquided.

There are two fundamental problems.  The first is production of competent
submissions.  I do not think it likely that there are more than a handful
of people in the SCA who could produce a competent scholarly monograph in
the 100-200 page range in anything like a reasonable period of time.  As
the author of an academic book in a slightly longer range, I can attest
that only professional scholars (or the independently wealthy) can afford
the investment of time and effort necessary to produce that kind of 
product in less than two years.  The resources required are sufficiently
daunting that I doubt there would be many submittors who were not
professional academics.  And if a professional medievalist is going
to invest the time and effort necessary to produce such work, he or she
is going to be looking for a university press, not an SCA publication
as the venue for publication (trust me, it may be cynical, but I'd _much_
rather have a publication in _Speculum_ or _English Historical Review_
than TI or CA anytime, no contest).

The second problem is that production of a professional quality journal
is a much more complex endeavor than Solveig seems to think.  I have been
an associate editor for a professional journal and co-editor of a book of
refereed essays.  It is enormously time-consuming and _very_ expensive
(which is why many professional journals require subventions from
foundations, grants, or academic institutions to survive).

I do not mean to rain on anyone's parade, but I think the proposers are
biting off more than the SCA can comfortably hope to chew.

In Service,

Hossein/Greg
From: samlb@optilink.UUCP (Sam Bassett)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Prince of Thieves wrongos
Date: 9 Sep 92 16:55:59 GMT
Organization: Long time BayArean

In article <3427@creatures.cs.vt.edu> jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter) writes:
}Remember the film "The Graduate"?  Dustin Hoffman's intro to the big time?
}At the end, there's a scene where he's running across the Golden Gate
}Bridge.  From what I've been told, to get a better shot, they reversed the 
}directions of traffic on the two levels of the bridge.

	Not to pick nits or anything (  :-), but when did they put the
_second_ level on the _Golden Gate_ bridge?  There ain't but _ONE_ level,
although they've been talking about adding another for years . . .

	Musta been the SF-Oakland Bay Bridge . . .

-- 
Sam'l Bassett -- System Administrator 	      (among other silly things)
Work: DSC/Optilink, 1310-C Redwood Wy, Petaluma CA 94954; 1-707-792-7253
Internet: samlb@optilink.com 		      UUCP: uunet!optilink!samlb
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: helm@jade.ucdavis.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: George Romero, Knight Riders
Date: 10 Sep 92 06:29:45 GMT
Reply-To: helm@jade.ucdavis.edu
Organization: Geology Department, University of California, Davis

Ok, you've got my attention now.  What happened at that Crown
Tourney in BMDL such that folks were motivated to splinter off
and start the MSR?

A curious Twcs
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Hello and some questions
From: wulf@sloth.equinox.gen.nz (Steve Rennell)
Date: Thu, 03 Sep 92 10:19:53 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Lethargy Inc.

Unto the visitors to the Rialto does Ulf of Sjaelland send Greetings, 

I have been reading this group on and off for about a year now and finally I 
can post!!!

I am resident in the Shire of Southron Gaard, Caid, New Zealand, and have 
just been lumbered with the post of Territorial Marshal, (acting till 
confirmed due to insufficient reluctance (I was on the Phone..)). We just 
finished getting together a set of mixed combat rules that would allow us to 
fight similarly to Lochac, and yet still be part of the Kingdom of Caid. It 
recently got approved by the Earl Marshal using 1 inch rubber blunts 
provisionally, till the heavies get used to being shot at. 

Now the Society 1992 Combat rules just arrived, and the minimum blunt sizes 
are listed as 1 and 1/4 inches, (so now we are going to have to re-write the 
rules...)

What, if anything, will Lochac's reaction to this be, since it would be good 
if our blunt specs and Lochac blunt specs were the same, since they are our 
nearest neighbours and I'd like to visit, and have them visit us, with a 
minimum of equipment hassles.

Wulf

On a different tack...
Would anyone who has the address (E-mail or otherwise) of Mistress Berengaria 
de Montfort of Carcassonne please E-mail me, since I lost contact a few 
months ago...
From: grm+@andrew.cmu.edu (Gretchen Miller)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: A request for a bit of help
Date: 8 Sep 92 17:40:53 GMT
	<1992Sep04.202906.26892@watson.ibm.com>
Organization: Computer Operations, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

A look through a couple online library catalog (I love online
catalogs...) turned up some examples of the name "Nicodemus", a few are
the name of a real person, and several references to the Gospel of
Nicodemus (and Nicodemus the Evangelist, I think).  I found one other
slightly out of period (born 1654) reference to a Swedish Nicodemus. 
Got a few hits on Nikodemus, but they were mostly on a Coptic saint of
the 19th century.  Enjoy!

toodles, margaret

Author       Casey, Paul F
Title        Book Reviews -- The Political Dramaturgy of NICODEMUS 
             Frischlin:  Essays on Humanist Drama in Germany by David Price
Source       Sixteenth Century Journal,  v22n3,  569,  Fall 1991
Abstract     Review.
Subjects     Nonfiction; Renaissance period; Drama; Literary criticism; 
             Humanism
PersonalName Frischlin, Philipp NICODEMUS (1547-90)

 TITLE:  Selections from the Hengwrt mss. preserved in the Peniarth
                   library.
        AUTHOR:  Williams, Robert, 1810-1881, ed. and tr.
     PUBLISHED:  London, T. Richards, 1876-92.
   DESCRIPTION:  2 v. 23 cm.
      CONTENTS:  v. 1. Y Seint greal, being the adventures of King Arthur's
                   knights of the Round table, in the guest of the Holy greal,
                   and on other occasions.  Originally written about the year
                   1200. Ed. with a translation and glossary by R. Williams. v.
                   2. Campeu Charlymaen, Brown o Hamtwn.  Purdan Padric,
                   Buchedd Meir wyry, Evengyl Nicodemus, Y. groglith, Brenddwyt
                   Pawl, Seith doethion Ruvein, I potis ysprytawl, Lucidarius,
                   Ymborth yr eneit, etc., etc. Ed. with a translatin, by R.
                   Williams and the translation continued by G. H. Jones.
  (The phrase "Evengyl Nicodemus" is the phrase of note here. Note,
there are LOTS of writings about the Gospel of Nicodemus in just about
every European language.  Many of them discuss views of this gospel from
the Middle Ages {Moyen Age}, etc)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Pennsic Land Allocation
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 00:07:58 GMT


Mark Schuldenfrei (schuldy@progress.com) writes:
>Carolus also mentions that he doesn't understand why events cost
>as much as they do.  In all honesty, Charles, $15 for a day event
>is quite steep, but $15 for a weekend event is not.  If you have
>questions, why not ask your local exchequer to let you browse
>the event reports some day?  Or, browse them at the Kingdom level,
>instead?
>
>budget for one upcoming event.  The site is $300 dollars  . . .
>Lunch
>and dinner are included.  Given the menu, it will cost about
>$4.50 per person to feed everybody.  

Would that we could get sites for kingdom events so dear . . .

The West, as a kingdom, doesn't do feasts at all.  The Province of the
Mists generally does about 2 a year (Spring Banquet and Bard of the
Mists Competition--it's this weekend, you *are* all coming, aren't
you?).

There is a site in the Bay Area that's a bit too small for a kingdom
event (1000+ folks), but about right for Principality.  The rental for
the site for a weekend was $5000 last I heard.  It's probably higher
now.

Our site fees have been running around $5 per person.  This will
probably climb somewhat next year.

On the other hand, we got a site for our 10-day Beltane last year that
had a positive cash-flow for $25 per person for the whole ten days.
(You can see why Westerners look somewhat askance at the site fee at
Pennsic.  The site we used is also a commercial campground. . . )

>Carolus also wrote:
>  Sounds to me like we need to change corpora, or stop sending
>  our membership cash to the people in milipitas.

That membership cash doesn't run your events.  It does (mostly) let
you know where the events will be and provide the insurance policy
that allows you be able to talk to site owners--but it doesn't pay for
events.

>I've sometimes wondered what the SCA would be like, if instead
>of sending money to California, you joined whatever local group
>you liked, and they in turn tithed upward to their Principality,
>Kingdom, and the Corporation.  It would let you belong to any group
>you wanted, without dealing with Zip-Codes.  You could even belong
>to no group, and send the money straight to your Kingdom, or some
>other Kingdom.

It would be different.

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
From: Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: parking//diesel pests
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1992 23:59:24 -0500

Alexis Stephanovich Monomach (sjvn@access.digex.com (Steven
J. Vaughan-Nichols)) writeth:

 > I was told that certain women camping near the road traditionally
 > would take theiir shirts off when trunks honked for them

 SJV> Sounds like a SCA urban legend to me.  Anyone with trucker friends
 SJV> who can find the real answer?  

I know not, but if anyone wisheth to arrange such a tradition and needeth
witnesses....  ;->


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: patmcg@home.merit.edu (Pat McGregor)
Subject: Re: Pennsic Land Allocation
Organization: University of Michigan
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 01:19:19 GMT

whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt) writes:

>I have severe reservations about the demographic issue, however.
>Students are probably (proportionately) over-represented on the
>Rialto.  I don't think--and I have no data to back that thought--that
>the student population within the SCA is all that large a percentage.
>I would be surprised if it's as high as 10 percent--and I don't
>consider that a large, let alone VERY large--percentage.

>	--Hal

The Advertising manager for TI, with some help from Chroniclers
across the known world, Seneschals, and some others, came up with
some rough demographics for our population. At least, 4 years ago 
the publications staff was telling advertisers that we are at
least 50% 25 and over, with an average family income of about $35,000.
 
It would be interesting to contact him now and see what he is currently
saying.
 
Certainly in the groups I know of, in Michigan, the students are 15-20% 
of the groups, with the largest population being 25-35 year olds who
belong to the working professionals class.
 
As a group, we are also moving to be the Double-income 1-2 kid bracket.
 
 siobhan


 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
       Siobhan Medhbh O'Roarke                Pat McGregor
       Shire Cynnabar, Middle Kingdom         3638 Greenook Blvd
                                              Ann Arbor, MI 48103-9143
       patmcg@merit.edu     
       smor@um.cc.umich.edu                   (313) 426-3506
       UserW02V@umichum.bitnet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: patmcg@home.merit.edu (Pat McGregor)
Subject: Re: Paying the Pennsic Autocrat
Organization: University of Michigan
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 01:52:57 GMT

corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra) writes:

>To all on the Rialto, greetings,

>Aryk and I have been discussing the pros and cons of paying the Pennsic
>Autocrat. So far, noone else has ventured an opinion. I would like to 
>think there are other opinions out there, and some other possible solutions
>that we can discuss. If there are not, I will ask Aryk to take this topic
>into private email where he and I can hash it out ad nauseum, and not
>waste the bandwidth here.

Oh, I'll bite.
 
I would actually be interested in being Pennsic Autocrat if it were
a paid position -- and only if. 
 
I currently have to think hard about *every* task I say yes to in
the SCA, because if it endangers my half of the mortgage, the answer
has to be no.
 
I suspect I could not only "handle" a Pennsic, but do rather well at it --
if I had time and space to devote to it, rather than trying to cram it
in next to 2 children, a full-time job, and teaching childbirth education.
 
So, for me, the idea of a paid autocrat is attractive. I'll apply,
if such a thing comes about.
 
I don't want to belittle the contributions of past autocrats -- I'm amazed
that they can do what's been done. But I suspect the time has come for
the SCA to realize we're living in 1992 and not 1979 -- and the War,
(and several other functions of the SCA, but that's *another* argument! ;-) )
like a big convention or other regular gathering, needs real management.
Starting a year out.
 
Regards,
 
   siobhan


 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
       Siobhan Medhbh O'Roarke                Pat McGregor
       Shire Cynnabar, Middle Kingdom         3638 Greenook Blvd
                                              Ann Arbor, MI 48103-9143
       patmcg@merit.edu     
       smor@um.cc.umich.edu                   (313) 426-3506
       UserW02V@umichum.bitnet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: Modest Proposal
Organization: University of Toronto -- Hart House
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 22:21:44 GMT

In article <7365@ds5000.DAC.Northeastern.edu> bnostran@ds5000.DAC.Northeastern.edu (Barbara Nostrand) writes:

>....  What is proposed
>is that the SCA institute a series of research monographs which
>would present original research geared toward recreation of various
>aspects of the middle ages.  The series would bridge the gap between
>CA and academic research publications.  Issues in the series would
>also be somewhat longer than CA with a page count between 70 pages
>and 200 pages.  70 pages being about the upper limit for CA publication.
>I do not think that such a publication, tentatively titled "Studia Antiqua",
>could come out more than 4 times a year.  Actually, since there is at
>present no back-log of submissions, that frequency of publication will
>be somewhat difficult to sustain during the first years of publication.

This bears a remarkable resemblance to the _Journal of Re-creative Research_
(JRR), which was begun by the SCA Inc. a few years ago (1985?).  The JRR
was launched with some fanfare, as a journal which would put the research
produced by the SCA in front of interested Scadians, and also in the public
domain.

As I recall, there were no submissions.

Aryk Nusbacher