HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad)
Subject: Re: Tristan and the taragota
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 15:46:34 GMT

In article <BuH782.CMu.1@cs.cmu.edu> hsmoliar+@cs.cmu.edu (Harold Smoliar) writes:

>In article <BuF27t.A56@news.udel.edu> conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad) writes:

>>The chances of an English horn being heard from backstage
>>under such circumstances are slim.  

>I guess you've never heard Tom Stacy, my colleague in the NY Phil.

Point taken, and conceded.

>>though he settled for English horn in the published score.

>Jon, Jon---no one settles for the English horn. :)  We get the good solos
>because we sound so nice.  :) :) :) :)

How true.  How could I have allowed myself to use such wording!!  :-)

In connection with which, Harold, I hope you've acquired the Chandos CD
containing William Alwyn's "Autumn Legend" for English horn and
orchestra.  Never has an English horn been given such a luxurious bed of
sound upon which to ravish our senses.  Well worth seeking out for E.H.
fans (of whom I am one).

Jon Alan Conrad
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: le01167@portal.lasc.lockheed.com (Ron Nadel (x2025))
Subject: Re: Beethoven's 10th. Symphony
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Lockheed Aeronautical Systems Co. - Rye Canyon
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 17:53:24 GMT

In article <00960672.DA715FE0@vms.csd.mu.edu>, 6145goldino@vms.csd.mu.edu writes...

>I seem to recall hearing on the radio several years ago an orchestral version
>of a reconstruction of the unfinished manuscripts for Beethoven's 10th
>symphony.  It did sound like Beethoven, and it sounded pretty good, though I
>admit to not really being able to appreciate most concert music except after a
>handful of hearings.  My question -- who did the reconstruction?  Is the
>recording available?  And what is the consensus of musicologists on this? 
>(Opinion is still divided on Cooke's Mahler's 10th, though I take it that the
>manuscripts for this are much fuller.)

It's an interesting conversation piece.  It does sound like Beethoven, but more
often like Schumann to me.  The musicologist (I can't remember his name, I think 
he's British) supposedly has excellent credentials, and has published much on the 
way that Beethoven composed.  He worked back and forth from letters, manuscripts, 
and Beethoven's conversation pages (which he had to use to communicate once he
was deaf) to piece together the movement.  He feels that he has got a grasp on
Beethoven's composition technique.  The recording is conducted by Wyn Morris, and
is available on CD (Morris was one of the first, if not The first, to record the
Deryck Cooke Mahler #10).

This sketch has not been the subject of too much rejection since the musicologist
in question is quite respected.

Ron
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker)
Subject: Re: Le Sacre, Stravinski
Organization: Camosun College, Victoria BC, Canada
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 18:40:46 GMT

In article <BuCxsJ.8Ix@cs.vu.nl> lrozend@cs.vu.nl (Rozendaal L) writes:
>I'd like to know which performance of 'Le sacre du printemps' is considered
>the best. Any opinions?

*The* best? Stravinsky's own 1962 version (Sony) is highly regarded,
and he does, of course have his own special insights. My own favourite
was always the 1968 Cleveland/Boulez recording (also Sony), but, in
the first of a new batch of recordings with DG, this team have just
remade it, coupled with the 1911 version of Petroushka (as is the
Stravinsky BTW). This is not better than the 1968 version in every
detail - and that always struck me as one of CBS's finest ever
recordings - but it is excellently played, very well recorded, and
Boulez's quasi-analytical approach has always struck me as being ideal
for this music; it is 'primitive' enough as it stands, it doesn't need
to be conducted that way.

The LPO/Mackerras (EMI) is a good version at mid-price, excitingly
played and quite well recorded.

i should avoid the much-touted Dallas SO/Mata version on Dorian.
Despite their track record this is *not* a spectacular - or even
particularly natural sounding - recording, and the performance is
*dull*. The Rite should *never* sound polite - but this one does.

In fine, you should not be without Stravinksy's version, if you're
serious about this piece, but I think the new Boulez is the one to go
for. 

Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept., Camosun College, Victoria B.C.
From: ca572@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark L. Stackpole)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Korngold
Date: 11 Sep 1992 19:27:47 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


>2 and a half minuets
              ^^^^^^^
<red face> :-(    Remember, ALWAYS read through before posting.
Mark Stackpole  pacnet@rocky.claremont.edu
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: ujwb@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Jeff Beer)
Subject: Re: Shostakovic's Preludes and Fugues recording: comments?
Organization: Educational Computing Network
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 14:05:17 GMT

Finally Keith is playing the piano.  The only other classical recordings
I know of have been on Baroque pieces on harpsichord.  It begs the
question, "Come on Keith, whom is a chicken?"  I wouldn't mind hearing
him on Ravel or Debussy, or the Charles Ives Concord.

Jeff
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Organization: University of Maryland at Baltimore
Date: Wednesday, 9 Sep 1992 08:46:27 EST
From: Robert Haskins <RHASKINS@UMAB.BITNET>
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Solti and Karajan (was: Re: Mahler's 5th Symphony by Solti ...)
 <1992Sep8.033831.29158@cmcl2.nyu.edu>
 <1992Sep8.175548.6739@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU>

Jeremy writes:

No doubt, Karajan has injected a few dogs into the CD catalogue
(Shostakovich #10 for example), but Solti cannot compete with his

Do you mean the recording of Shostakovich #10 in the 80s, with the
big "DS" on the cover?  If so, I'd really like to know what you don't
like about it?  I think it's the best performance of the Tenth I've
ever heard on record.

Bob
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: ridgway@athena.mit.edu (Lee Ridgway)
Subject: Re: Six fingers to play harpsichord, eh?
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 19:24:21 GMT

If one looks at treatises on keyboard playing from those periods, you won't find
a prohibition on using certain fingers, but you will find, especially in the
16th-early 17th century treatises, certain fingers specified as "good" and
certain ones as "bad," and contradictions as to which fingers were what! These
designations changed from country to country, and decade to decade.

The basic principle is that two fingers were usually considered "good" and were
to be used on the strong, or "good" note in a given group of notes, and the "bad"
fingers would play the weak or "bad" notes. 

Fingering styles and systems changed over time, as instruments and music changed.
Very few early music keyboard performers of today (at least the good ones) have
ever held rigidly to using "old-style" fingering, because they just don't know
enough about how consistently the fingerings were applied: you start playing a
piece according to a treatise, and if it is any sort of interesting piece, you
will soon run into spots where what the treatise says is best ignored. However,
every performer of early keyboard music should be familiar with the various old
fingerings.

See the New Grove on Fingering for a good overview of this subject, and don't
give dogmatic teachers too much credibility.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: steve@fid.morgan.com (Steve Apter)
Subject: Re: obscure but good
Organization: Morgan Stanley & Co., New York, NY
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 22:22:40 GMT

   Ruggles: _Suntreader_ (Michael Tilson-Thomas, DG)
   Debussy: _le Martyre de Saint-Sebastien_ (Munch, RCA)
     Leifs: _Baldr_ (Zukofsky, cp2)
    Shapey: _Krolish Sontate_ (Kalish et.al.,New World)
Skalkottas: _Greek Dances_ (Fidetzis, Lyra)
From: coren@osf.org (Robert Coren)
Subject: Re: Du Pre recital
Organization: Open Software Foundation
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 20:53:11 GMT

In article <1992Sep14.164836.15698@osf.org>, dbrooks@osf.org (David Brooks) writes:
> coren@osf.org (Robert Coren) writes:
> |> In article <DBROOKS.92Sep13231123@penge.osf.org>, dbrooks@penge.osf.org (David Brooks) writes:
> |> > There were those among us 25 years ago or so who were ready to kill Stephen
> |> > Bishop.
> |> 
> |> What is Stephen Bishop (as he then was) supposed to have done?
> 
> The usual (with Jackie, not *to* Jackie as your question implies), pretty
> well corroborated by a biography I recently read.

Oh, I see. Jealousy, not revenge.

> 
> The book also hints at attempts on William Pleeth, her teacher, but he was
> more fond of his wife.

Than whom? Du Pre, Bishop, or both?
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: inr@eccles.caltech.edu (I. Neill Reid)
Subject: re: Sibelius 2nd symphony
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: California Institute of Technology
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 19:14:00 GMT

 I'd agree with Chris Brewster that the 2nd isn't the finest of the
symphonies - my vote for the latter has to go to the 7th - but
extent to which the 2nd echoes Tchaikovsky depends a lot on the
interpreter. Gibson at least always got a sparse, icy sound out of 
the SNO, nothing like Tchaikovskian opulence.

 Neill Reid   inr@eccles.caltech.edu
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: inr@eccles.caltech.edu (I. Neill Reid)
Subject: re: recommendations of choral music
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: California Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 05:41:00 GMT

>From: wilcox@vax.oxford.ac.uk


In article <8SEP199220025974@eccles.caltech.edu>, inr@eccles.caltech.edu (I. Neill Reid) writes:
> as a follow-up to wilcox@vax.oxford etc etc etc
>  
>       [various deletions]
>>  4) Frankly, if the Cambridge singers represent the best of English
>>  choral music (I don't agree), then it's pretty damning of the whole
>>  gendre - they give very _nice_, twee, uninvolved performances. Blah.
>>  (& that probably reflects Rutterdom).
>> 
>You mistake me. The Cambridge Singers are easily the best of the English Choral
>Tradition, not of British choral music as a whole. They are the pinnacle of
>that niceness, that detachedness which is the fashion in the English Cathedral
>and Oxbridge College circuit. If you like, they out-Kings Kings. As such they
>are excellent for English Choral Tradition Music: the Tallises and Byrds, the
>Stanfords and Wesleys, the Elgars and Howellses. They are also extremely
>accurate, blend perfectly and respond precisely to Rutter. That is what makes a
>good choir. I have already been called a heretic for saying this by a fellow
>Oxonian, so you are not alone in your criticism of me.

>Unfortunately it does not, as you say, make for interesting listening....

 Apologies - I had indeed misconstrued your meaning - however, I don't
they're `excellent for ECTM' - there's an awful lot more to Tallis, Byrd, 
Elgar or even Howells and Stanford than the Cambridgers find. I take
your point about the contrast between those choirs & David Hills groups,
however (and have committed `genre' to memory - thought it looked wrong).

>> the Deller Consort (particularly with Alfred Deller - best Byrd masses), 
>Yet more hooting counter-tenors

well, there's no pleasing some people. I suppose you don't even like
Drew Minter's recordings of Campion's songs?

 Neill Reid   -  inr@eccles.caltech.edu

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad)
Subject: Re: Mahler's 5th Symphony by Solti and remastering CDs
Organization: University of Delaware
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 17:52:40 GMT

In article <CB.92Sep4160011@tamarack13.timbuk> cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster) writes:

>Solti was an impoverished refugee from Nazism at the same time that
>Herbie the K was living high with, so far as I'm aware, no moral qualms
>about the regime that supported him--and I think he was unapologetic
>after the war.  

I'll leave argumentation on this year's go-round on this tired topic to
someone else.

>Karajan never performed in Chicago; 

Wrong.  I saw him conduct the Berlin Phil there in 1962.

>I assumed Solti
>wouldn't allow it, but maybe Karajan would have refused in any case
>because of *his* grudge.  

Oh, you meant "never conducted the Chicago Symphony" (while Solti was
music director.  True, but so what?  Karajan never guest-conducted 
anyone else's orchestra ANYwhere.

>Also notice that Solti never conducted at
>Bayreuth until just a few years ago, long after he had recorded most of
>Wagner's works; I can guess whose policy that was.  

I can't.  Please don't leave us in suspense.

If you are interested in such mundane things as facts, recall that
conducting at Bayreuth is a many-years commitment, just what a superstar
like Solti will try to avoid (in fact, when his RING was not the success
he'd hoped, he managed to weasel his way out of the next 4 years after
all, with a doctor's note; it's a safe bet he'll never be asked back
after that).  Summer was, among other things, his chance to return to
Europe and make recordings.  And the RING was not his first invitation
there, just the first one he'd accepted.  Also, he, like Karajan, doesn't 
like to guest conduct any but "his" orchestra.  

If there's anyone whose policy it WASN'T, it would have to be Karajan; 
is that what you were suggesting?????  He has zero input at Bayreuth, 
not having conducted there since 1952 and having in the Salzburg Festival 
one of their main rival events.  

>In this battle of
>the titans, my sympathies are with Solti across the board.

First you'll have to convince us there was such a battle.  Maybe there
was, but the fictitious nature of your examples doesn't inspire
confidence.

Jon Alan Conrad
From: kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu (Bob Kosovsky)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.
Date: 10 Sep 92 03:44:43 GMT
Reply-To: kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu
Organization: Computer Center, CUNY Graduate School, New York NY 10036

By way of introduction, I'd like to inform readers of a lovely article by
"our own" Jon Alan Conrad in the current issue of Opera Quarterly about
recordings of theatical vocal works by Leonard Bernstein.  He discusses and
compares the various recordings for the shows.

As he mentions, Bernstein's collaboration with Alan Jay Lerner in 
"1600 Pennsylvania Avenue" seems to have been a disaster, one where both
creators seem to have been disappointed.  Not mentioned by Conrad, is an
interesting entry in a very worthwhile book, "The Musicals Nobody Came To
See."  This is a resource book for those interested in doing a show and 
prefer to stay away from the overly familiar.  1600 Penn. Ave gets an entry;
but unlike the entries for other shows that explain where to get the
music, rights, etc., the entry under this show has a note saying, in effect,
that neither Bernstein nor Lerner are interesting in seeing this show
produced.  Sounds very unhappy!

Though the show never opened in NYC, I know I have seen a bootleg tape of
some performance - if anyone is interested I can try to locate it.


Bob Kosovsky
Graduate Center -- Ph.D. Program in Music(student)/ City University of New York
New York Public Library -- Music Division
bitnet:   kos@cunyvms1.bitnet        internet: kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu
Disclaimer:  My opinions do not necessarily represent those of my institutions.
From: jonesm@nic.cerf.net (Matthew Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Used instruments
Date: 11 Sep 92 14:43:36 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: CERFnet

I am interested in finding and buying some not so common instruments
and at the top of my list is an ALTO FLUTE. But I am not willing to
pay $1400 for one, does anyone know a good source for used ones. I
have a lot of tooling and can probably repair/overhaul it so condition's
not too important.

Matthew Jones
jonesm@cerf.net
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster)
Subject: Re: Korngold
In-reply-to: kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu's message of Mon, 7 Sep 1992 23:24:38 GMT
Organization: pubs
	<1992Sep7.232438.15103@timessqr.gc.cuny.edu>
Date: 8 Sep 92 12:42:59 CDT

Bob Kosovsky writes:
   ...
   I've never seen his last film, MAGIC FIRE (1956) - a bio 
   about Wagner...

I didn't know there was such a film.  Has anyone seen it?

Chris Brewster
cb@cray.com
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: jmwobus@newstand.syr.edu (John M. Wobus)
Subject: Re: Bach undervalued? (was: Beethoven - overvalued?)
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 92 15:44:48 EDT

In article <1992Sep2.134524.26910@odin.diku.dk>, zqex@diku.dk (Carsten Svaneborg) writes:
|> vanloon@cwi.nl (Maarten van Loon) writes:
|> 
|> >>>No, No, I was right the first time. Beethoven comes first, then Mozart, then
|> >>>Bach in fifth spot. After all, Mozart is in fourth.
|> >>>>> email: vanloon@cwi.nl  Not knowing Bach = not really living
|> >>>				       ^^^^
|> >>>another careless mistake. This should be Beethoven.
|> 
|> >As far as I can see, this is the best proof that Van Beethoven in
|> >overvalued indeed.
|> 
|> >>  Everybody has his own favourite to be the greatest composer of all. You
|> >>  are really stupid, if you insist on Beethoven like that! 
|> >>  Especially as I have Bach in the first place and after him I don't care...
|> 
|> >Yes. Bach comes first. I think it's time to ask: why is Bach so undervalued?
|> >I see relatively too less article on Bach. And after all, he was the
|> >greatest composer ever.
|> 
|> Yes. Bach comes first!

I missed the beginning of this, but this looks like great material for the
FAQ memo.  Now, all I need to know is what was the original question.  ;-)

John Wobus
Syracuse University
From: 6145goldino@vms.csd.mu.edu (Owen Goldin)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Beethoven's 10th. Symphony
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 16:21:26 GMT
Organization: Marquette University - Computer Services
Reply-To: 6145goldino@vms.csd.mu.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: vmsd.csd.mu.edu

I seem to recall hearing on the radio several years ago an orchestral version
of a reconstruction of the unfinished manuscripts for Beethoven's 10th
symphony.  It did sound like Beethoven, and it sounded pretty good, though I
admit to not really being able to appreciate most concert music except after a
handful of hearings.  My question -- who did the reconstruction?  Is the
recording available?  And what is the consensus of musicologists on this? 
(Opinion is still divided on Cooke's Mahler's 10th, though I take it that the
manuscripts for this are much fuller.)
     (Now if only more manuscripts would turn up for Ives's Universe Symphony .
. . . Ives welcomed people doing whatever they wanted to with his written
music.)

Owen 
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: le01167@portal.lasc.lockheed.com (Ron Nadel (x2025))
Subject: Re: Le Sacre, Stravinski
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Lockheed Aeronautical Systems Co. - Rye Canyon
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 20:51:14 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.170804.12479@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU>, smith@honesty.Stanford.EDU.Stanford.EDU (Jeremy Smith) writes...

> "The Rite of Spring" is a very   
>difficult work to play,

ok so far...

>and Montreal is perhaps the most technically proficient
>Symphony Orchestra in the world today. 

I guess I have not been keeping my eye on the Sports page.  When did they
win this title?

Ron
From: diarmuid@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Diarmuid Pigott)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Sibelius 2nd
Date: 8 Sep 1992 15:48:59 +0800
Organization: The University of Westrn Australia
NNTP-Posting-Host: uniwa.uwa.edu.au

The entire cycle by Barbirolli and RPO was released as a boxed set by
EMI. As this was my first knowledge of Sibelius, they remain my
favourite. (Possibly with the exception of the Neeme Jarvi on BIS - undecided)
From: HSMBB@CUNYVM.BITNET (Spencer Means)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Gruberova cancellation, Weidinger, etc.
Date: 14 Sep 92 14:57:28 GMT
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center

Does any of the Gruberova fans on the net know why she withdrew from the
Met's Semiramide this fall?  Also, does anybody know whether Christine
Weidinger has any business replacing her?  I haven't heard Weidinger
since she performed (adequately) such roles as Zulma in L'Italiana in Algeri
in the 70's.  What has she been doing, and can she handle Semiramide?  The
Met took a long time coming up with this replacement, and, while I hate to be
unkind, it sounds like they got to the bottom of the barrel.
From: conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Identification (and conductor) wanted
Date: 14 Sep 92 15:51:34 GMT
Organization: University of Delaware

In article <ROB.92Sep11091504@leopard.cs.man.ac.uk> Robert Marshall <rajm@cs.man.ac.uk> writes:

>According to Charles Rosen's `The Classical Style', a well known
>conductor (unnamed) used to, usually, omit the 5/8 sections from a
>well known piece of music (also unnamed) because he found it too
>difficult to beat. The composer is supposed to have protested
>privately but in vain.

The following is purely my own personal conjecture....

When I first read this, I thought immediately of George Szell and
Bartok's "Concerto for Orchestra."  Of all recordings of this work, only
Szell's makes a cut in the final movement.  Szell said he had Bartok's
permission to do this, but the composer was dead by the time of the
recording so this could not be confirmed.

I'll confess that since reading Rosen, I've never hunted up a copy of
the Szell (it's not in my own collection, for obvious reasons) and
followed it with the score to see if the cut passage does include some
5/8.  I'm a little uneasy with this identification, though; Szell was
hardly a technically ill-equipped conductor.  Another explanation might
be that the conductor was one of Szell's mentors (whoever that might
be), who made the cut and created the false "authorization," which Szell
accepted in good faith without checking.  Does anybody know more?

Jon Alan Conrad
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: steve@fid.morgan.com (Steve Apter)
Subject: Re: Le Sacre, Stravinski
Organization: Morgan Stanley & Co., New York, NY
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 22:36:05 GMT


Since no one has done so, I will strongly recommend the Mackerras recording
on EMI.  Beautifully played, paced, and recorded.  Conditioned to this work
as I was by Boulez and Stravinsky, it came as a wonderful shock to be reminded
that this is a *Russian ballet*.

I'll also put in a word for Markevitch's live performance on Cascavelle,
which is even more exciting than Boulez', and for Sixten Ehrling's on BIS,
coupled with a fine _Symphony of Psalms_.

If recordings existed, I would be interested in hearing: 

	Gielen
	Bour
	Sinopoli

But imagine how this music would go with:

	Scherchen
	Harnoncourt
	Glenn Gould

Then tell me we need yet another recording by:

	Ozawa
	Mehta
	Muti




Newsgroups: rec.music.classical