From: rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Rich men and Heaven
Date: 28 Sep 92 18:45:07 GMT
Organization: CERL-EE, Georgia Institue of Technology

In article <1992Sep28.151949.13081@linus.mitre.org> zobell@lute.mitre.org (Steve Zobell) writes:
|In article <68990@hydra.gatech.EDU> rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts) writes:
|>In article <ksand-220992181713@wintermute.apple.com> ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik) writes:
...
|>|Check out any instances of what Jesus says about when the Kingdom of
|>|God will happen, or in his very own words:
|>|[Kent's verses deleted.]
|>|OK, that was a small sample of what Jesus thought about when Kingdom of 
|>|God will happen. Soon, or what? If not, what did Jesus say wrong?
|>
|>Kent you ignored my citing from Luke 19 of Jesus telling a parable, for 
|>he realized the people thought that the kingdom was about to take place
|>at once.  The parable told of a man leaving and being made king and then 
|>coming back. 
|>
|>Here is the intro:
|>
|>    Luke 19:12   He said: "A man of noble birth went to a distant country to
|>       have himself appointed king and then to return.
|>    Luke 19:13   So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas.
|>       'Put this money to work,' he said, 'UNTIL I COME BACK.'
|>
|>He is coming back, but this has not happened, yet.

|So you're telling us that these four words buried in a parable undo all

Not the four little words, but the whole parable and the whole of the
detailed illustrations Jesus used.  Maybe I should have included the 
whole parable, but I didn't - here is the introduction with the above
scripture, agian:

   Luke 19:11   While they were listening to this, HE WENT ON TO TELL THEM A
     PARABLE, BECAUSE HE WAS NEAR JERUSALEM AND THE PEOPLE THOUGHT THAT THE
     KINGDOM OF GOD WAS GOING TO APPEAR AT ONCE.
   Luke 19:12   He said: "A man of noble birth went to a distant country to
     have himself appointed king and then to return.
   Luke 19:13   So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas.
     'Put this money to work,' he said, 'UNTIL I COME BACK.'

Read the rest of it, if you'd like and then comment.

|of the things that Jesus clearly and explicitly stated about his second
|comming?  Can you tell me where I can get my secret Jesus decoder ring

Read it yourself.  Christians are challenged to study and be a good 
steward of the word (the Bible.)

|so I too can undo anything Jesus said using other unrelated parts of
|the Bible!  I'm sorry, but this parable IN NO WAY disputes Jesus saying
|he will return in the lifetime of some who knew him.

Additionally, you can look in Matthew 24 and Luke 21 and see where Jesus 
tells of many events to happen before His return.  The fall of Jerusalem,
many dreadful signs and wonders in heavens and on earth, false prophets 
and false christs, famines, wars, rumors of wars, etc, BEFORE the Son
of Man returns in the clouds with great glory, with angels and the
trumpet call of God.

In John 14, Jesus says he is going away to prepare a place for us and
he said if he went away he would come back for us.  Again, some 
period of time was to elapse.

|Jesus clearly LIED!  Your attempt to use an unrelated parable to tell

Unrelated only because you obviously didn't read it.

|us what Jesus REALLY meant to say is obvious desperation!  If Jesus

No there are many passages relating to the delay, as I've mentioned
above.  Paul, in 2 Thess 2, even says don't worry about some report of
the day already happening.  For the faith of many was shaken becuase
of this false report.  Paul says the Day of the Lord and our gathering
to Him will not occur until the rebellion occurs (see Matthew 24 and Luke 21,
along with Daniel.)  Many events still have to take place.

|were really a God, it would also be sacrilegious to deny the things he
|said clearly and on several occasions. So, it's fortunate for you Jesus
|is not God!  I don't have Kent's list, but I'm including my own list,

I guess you threw out the first chapter of John, where Jesus was with God,
was God, and was made flesh and dwelt among us, huh?  It seems that
Jesus is God.  Even in the OT, the promise of the Messenger of the
Covenant, with the forerunner John the Baptist, says that God himself
is coming and we see this in the man Jesus the Christ. (Malachi 3)
Even Luke 2:10-11, where the angel tells of Jesus' birth, says that
the angel proclaims that that day the Savior was born in the city 
of David [Jerusalem] - and that He [Jesus] is Christ, the Lord.

|just to demonstrate the number of verses you have to try to undo:

I submit to you that Jesus (God in human flesh) being here on the 
earth was and is the understanding of the kingdom of God/heaven
being at hand, per all of the verses you cited.   Peter was with
Jesus in Matthew 16-17, when Jesus said some standing here will not
taste death before you see the son of man coming in 'his' kingdom.
Peter tells us in 2 Peter 1:16-18 that he did see Jesus glorified on the
mountain (Matthew 17 - the transfiguration.)  There was a change
at that time, but the Kingdom being culminated hasn't happened, yet.

|REV 3:11; 22:7,12,20: "I come quickly"

This one I though I'd single out - There is a whole lot of things
in the book of Revelation that occur before Jesus returns.  He returns
toward the end of the book, which to my understanding is at the end of the
tribulation (Rev 19 sort of closes out the trib.)  The kingdom
is then on earth, for at that time, God will dwell with men forever.

|-- Steve

For Christ and His Kingdom,
Richard Pitts
-- 
rpitts@cerl.gatech.edu       |    
Atlanta, GA                --|-- 
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