HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 09:09:00 GMT
From:         Z_STAFF_CL@SOUTHAMPTON-INSTITUTE.AC.UK
Subject:      Eckhart / Creation Centred Spirituality (was women)

Zane mentioned Meister Eckhart.  This chap's writings concern me a
little.  I am not a theological scholar but I have listened to many
and read a little of this.  Especially the development of such by
others into Creation Centred Spirituallity.

From what I can gather Creation Centred Spirituallity has taken the
theological idea that all things are created Good and distorted it
to the point that man's (generic term) separation from goodness and
God hasn't happened and so redemption (read Jesus) isn't required.

Athough I appreciate the idea that the church needed to get away from
the "I am a sinner worth nothing" syndrome that meant that Christianity
was not a liberation (as Jesus intended it) but a burden, I think it
has been taken too far in Creation Centred Spirituallity.

One thing that really concerns me is that Creation Centred Spirituallity
is being promoited as part of the modern Christian Church.  I find very
little in it to distinguish it as Christian except in it's socialist (not
political term) approach.  Yet the Joes and Janes in the pews see it as
such.

Have I misunderstood ?
What do others think ?
IS IT CHRISTIAN ?

Carol L


Carol A Long,  Southampton Institute of Higher Education, England
        email     :  Z_STAFF_CL@UK.AC.SOUTHAMPTON-INSTITUTE
DISCLAIMER - merely musings unless otherwise stated.
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Date:         Mon, 9 Nov 1992 15:27:00 EST
From:         "DRCV06::GRAHAM" <GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL>
Subject:      Re: The new world order.

Yup, it was a Bushism for "I wanna be in charge of everything."

Hopefully, with his political passing, it will be dead.  The only New world
order that will mean a thing is that instituted by Jesus Christ.

Dan Graham
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 16:28:41 CST
Comments:     Resent-From: GTHOMPSO@UA1VM
Comments:     Originally-From: GTHOMPSO@UA1VM
From:         GTHOMPSO@UA1VM.BITNET
Subject:      Foolish Questions

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
I have recently joined the group and have been somewhat concerned with some
of the topics discussed.  Today as I received my monthly copy of "Our Daily
Bread" for December, it was interesting to find several articles that had
came to mind as I was reading through my mail earlier today.  One article
particularly I would like to share with all the readers.  Hopefully, this
will be food for thought to all of us.  It is December 12 lesson entitled
_FOOLISH QUESTIONS_ Reading coming from 2 Timothy 2:15-26 with key verse
taken from 2 Timothy 2:23... Avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing
that they generate stife. (NKJV) is what they used.  (KJV) reads "But
foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes."
The reading goes as follows:

Down through the centuries, many foolish questions about religious matters
have been debated.  And they have usually generated more heat than light!
Some issues were so trivial that it's hard to imagine anyone taking them
seriously.  For example:
            * What shape are the Archangel Gabriel's wings?
            * Are there any angels with baritone voices?
            * Did Pilate use soap when washing his hands?
            * Could Christ have changed into a devil or a pumpkin?
            * How much wine did the guests drink at the marriage at Cana?
            * Can an egg laid on a festival day be eaten?
We may find it hard to believe that people would waste time and energy on
such nonessentials.  But don't we sometimes find it easy to get involved in
discussions on similar controversial matters not mentioned in the Bible?
Arguments over such issues are speculative and do not edify.  They usually
create division among believers and encourage conflict, ill will, and
pride.
Let's beware of foolish questions that generate strife.  Let's focus on
what really matters--telling others about Christ and how to become more
like Him.  God's people have so much to do in serving Christ today that
they should use their precious time to share, to love, to pray.
{Their closing thought was this---> WE CAN CONTEND FOR THE FAITH WITHOUT
BEING CONTENTIOUS.}

Perhaps we all can remember this as we continue writing to one another.
Instead of strife and contention let's strive for edification of the
body of Christ where the church is edified and our Lord and Saviour
Jesus Christ glorified.  Let us continue in prayer for one another and
let us go forth.

A concerned sister in Christ,

Gloria Thompson
Coordinator of Microcomputers
University of Alabama, Tuscaloosa
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Date:         Fri, 13 Nov 1992 08:38:07 CST
From:         "St. Jesso of Esso" <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Whose will is dominant?
              12 Nov 1992 15:37:11 CST from <sweberg@GARFIELD.WES.ARMY.MIL>

Scott ;

Deuteronomy30 is not a "choice", but an Ultamatum.

Further, "How do you know that Salvation is "offered" by Christ?"
The Scriptures do tell us that "God COMMANDS men everywhere to repent and
believe."
However, just because you are RESPONSIBLE before God, does not necessarily mean
that you are ABLE to respond.  Read John 6:65 for some light on the fact that
we cannot WILL to come to Christ UNLESS God ENABLES us to do so ... and if He
does not, we do NOT come to Christ.


Jesse Carnes
Organization: Queen's University at Kingston
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 02:08:24 EDT
From: andy <2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Rush: get a life

  The Rush Limbaugh show has recently been made available in this market. It
just proves the old theory that no matter how hard they try, conservatives
can't be funny (at least not on purpose)

  The show is a collection of sick jokes, loudmouth comments and abuse, the
cult like attraction it has for conservatives is beyond me. In the post Reagan
era, conservatives are looking for new icons to worship, if the best they can
come up with is Rush Limbaugh, the US is in for a long liberal reign.

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Date:         Fri, 13 Nov 1992 08:50:43 CST
From:         "(CADDC Dude)" <hale@DINO.WES.ARMY.MIL>
Subject:      Prayer Request

        Your prayer is greatly needed.  This weekend promises to
be a big time for the Lord but physical suffering in the form of
an infection has attacked me.
        Tonight I plan to go with Scott to the youth retreat for
the Lord has given me a message to speak unto the youth there.
Sunday I have been invited to a seminary for street/prison type
ministries.
        Excitement for this weekend has been building but this
morning about 4:00am a horid infection has come upon me. The
devil has attacked because the Lord is preparing for a mighty work.
        Please pray that God's will be done in the works
He has prepared and for the healing of my hurt body.

Matthew
hale@dino.wes.army.mil
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Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA
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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 05:36:38 EST
From:         "SHELBY A. CROSS" <LIBSAC@EMUVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      Reply-Prayer Request-Bill C.

Dearest Bill,

We are  deeply saddened to hear  the news about your  father passing. Our
prayers will  be with you and  your family at  this time. We are  so very
grateful that  your father is right  now with Jesus and  is enjoying that
heavenly  choir   walking  around   glorifying  God.  Praise   the  Lord!

Dear Heavenly Father,

We know that someone to love you  lend to us. Thank you Father for giving
Bill and his family such a loving  father to love. Please Father give the
family your strength  and courage at this time. Let  all the arrangements
and the funeral go smoothly and let  them also be a witness to let others
know that this is not a regular funeral but a home going, for we are just
pilgrims passing  through this strange  land. Bill's father is  now home.
We ask you to give everyone your peace, not as the world gives, but peace
that passes  all understanding.  May God  bless and keep  you all  in His
tender loving care.  In Jesus Name we pray.  Amen and Amen.

Love,

Shelby--
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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 14:12:51 -0500
From:         Eric James Ewanco <eje@IRENAEUS.MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: WHAT WE OFFER GOD?

Excerpts from christia: 10-Nov-92 Re: WHAT WE OFFER GOD? Jesse
Carnes@LSUVM.BITNE (789)

> Eric ;

> Firstly, you broke the Law of Contradiction by saying that Lazarus could
> come forth from the grave, it was merely impossible for him to do so.
> Impossibility precludes ANY possibility of comming forth ... look at
> your wording.

No, what I _said_ was that Lazarus could WILL to come forth -- he could
want to come forth, he could desire it, he had the freedom to choose,
but could not carry it out.

> Now, to quote Jesus, "I will answer your question, but first you must
> answer one for me."  You must first PROVE in context of biblical
> definition that the human will, catagorically, is Necessarily "free."
> Actually I have shown you from Romans 3, Romans 6, Romans 8, also John
> 1, 2 Tim 1, and Ephes. 2 that the human will is passive in REGENERATION,
> which is prior to a person being ABLE to come to Christ, necessarily
> because, as Paul states, DEAD men are DEAD and it is Christ who raises
> them to life when they were YET DEAD  (SEE EPH 2:1-10).

No, you haven't proven this, you have selected certain verses and
assumed they referred to regeneration when I rather doubt such an
interpretation is conclusive.  You only claim they say that regeneration
is necessary for us to choose God, and you haven't convinced me that
they do.

Prove to me that our will is entirely bound, that not a single thing we
do is of our own choice but is predestined by God.

If we have no free will whatsoever, we can be held no more accountable
for our sins than animals, and there can be no salvation, either.

Eric
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Date:         Sat, 7 Nov 1992 10:35:10 CDT
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject: Re: Trinity
              Nov 6, 92 3:39 pm

>
>>>Ian replies:
>>>Jesus as a human being needed to be guided by the Holy Spirit who was
>>>without the limmitations that Jesus imposed on himself..
>>>Jesus recieved the Holy Spirit at his baptism in much the same way that the
>>>people in the Upper Room (Acts 6 I think) received the Spirit - an empowering
>>>for service.
>
>I look at this all from a different view.  IMHO, the Spirit descended
>on him in the form of a dove for the benefit of us.  So the crowd that
>was gathered would believe and also because a sign was promised to John
>the Baptist so he would know the Son of God.  Jesus didn't need an
>empowering of the Holy Spirit, He was always a part of the Trinity.
>
>                                        Liz
>

Liz,
If Jesus did not need the Holy Spirit for his works on Earth then he cannot
be a role model for us, because WE need the Holy Spirit... All that Jesus
did on earth, he did as a man, not as God, he set aside his divine-ness for
his time on earth (with a respite at the mount of transfiguration)..

Jesus is our example of how to lead a perfect life on earth, he showed us
how to do it, by reliance on the Holy Spirit in all he did..

( I think we might have to agree to disagree here)

---------------------+-------------+-----------------------------------------
Ian Williams         |    _--_|\   |      Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems       |   /      \  |	  Phone	  : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia  |   \_.--*_/  |
                     |         v   |
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 09:29:29 CST
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: WHAT WE OFFER GOD?
              10 Nov 1992 09:31:36 -0500 from <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>

Eric;

Tell me :  HOW is an Unregenerate man, who CANNOT perceive the things
of God choose to come to Christ unless that man is ENABLED, or as Jesus
states, Ye must be born again ... the wind bloweth where it will, so it is
also with the Spirit."

Eric ... you speak of prevenient grace, but there is nothing in the Scriptures
to support that ... Paul said that we were DEAD in our sins and traspasses,
as stated in Eph 2.  We are NOT weak ... weary ... run down ... we are dead ...
DEAD ... D E A D.

You believe the will of man was weakened by Adam's fall? yes?
Romans chapter 5 shows that We All DIED, when Adam died in that moment of sin.
The dead need EXTRINSIC and LIFE-BRINGING ENABLING POWER in order to perceive
the things of God.  Else, we are dead ... dead ... dead.

To beleive that we are merely weakened by Adam's sin and all that we need
is prevenient Grace is to REALLY say that We save OURSELVES with Christ's
help.  If that were true, Ephs. 2 is false, for we would have something to
boast about before God.  You really think God is goin' to share the Glory in
all of that??


Think about it.


Jesse Carnes
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From: bgf8n@curry.edschool.Virginia.EDU (Brian Gregory Fern)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re:      Christian Attitudes About Cannibalism
Date: 9 Nov 92 05:25:03 GMT
Organization: University of Virginia


      I have to agree that the practicality of eating the
deceased seems appropriate in dire emergency, as with the
Donner party, but it does bring up one sticky question...

	Why ARE we letting people starve in Africa?  And why
should we send our 55 cents a month to Sally Struthers and crew
when that money might be misused, knowing full well that if we
instead sent the corpses of our 'dearly departed' that their
bodies would ONLY be used for the purpose we intended.  After
all, we can't know if our $ is well-used, but I don't think
we'd worry overly much about those bodies going into the bank
accounts of the people in charge!

	I guess what I'm getting at is that, if we can use
cannibalism for our own emergencies, why can't we use it for
other's emergencies?  Aren't the Ethiopians famine just as real
and serious as the Donner party's?  What ethical system would
justify using cannibalism only for our own trouble but not to
help our fellows?  That wouldn't sound particularly 'Christian'.

	Sorry I don't have any answers of my own.  Just
offering it as 'food for thought' - sorry for the bad pun!

brian
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Date:         Sat, 7 Nov 1992 13:41:26 EST
From:         "(dave talaga x2752)" <talaga@E5SB.OSDHW.SYR.GE.COM>
Subject:      Re: Thanks for the Rush.

> We don't need a moral government nor moral legislators, we need Christians
> whose only desire is to spread and declare the gospel.
>
> Dan Graham
>

Dan,

I have never heard Rush L. on radio, or otherwise, so I have no opinion
 concerning him; however, as for the other people you mention: Hoo boy!  You
 dropped a big old fat bomb.  IMO, a well placed one at that.  To think that the
 Bush/Quayle ticket was somehow representative of God and His church is
 mind-boggling.

Be it Bush or Clinton, Republicans or Democrats, even the Christian Coalition,
 we collectively got what we deserved with this go-around.

Dave Talaga
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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 11:54:49 EST
From:         Cindy <CHAMI01@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Prayer Request

Janie,

Thank you so much for your prayer.  The operation started at 11:00 and I am now
 waiting for word from my father.  I am certain that the Lord will watch over a
nd protect my mother and her physician.

May God bless you and keep you from all harm.

Cindy Hamilton
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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 14:48:44 CST
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: WHAT WE OFFER GOD?
              10 Nov 1992 14:12:51 -0500 from <eje@IRENAEUS.MLO.DEC.COM>

Eric ;

If you believe that Lazarus REALLY could have desired to come forth from
the dead while STILL dead, then you need some serious PRAYER.
WHEW!
Dead men, as the writer of Ecclesiastes shows, desire NOTHING.  All of their
desires, plans, hopes, dreams are all   G O N E.
Eric ... now seriously, you can't be on the level when you said what you did
about Lazarus can you ? ... you were jesting were you not?
No sane person would hold to that proposition unless they were merely jesting.


Jesse
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Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 10:38:04 EST
From:         "SHELBY A. CROSS" <LIBSAC@EMUVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      Reply-Quo Vadis-Lubosh

Dear Lubosh,

I have been so busy that I  only have gotten around to reading your arti-
cles on  Quo Vadis?  These stories  are so interesting,  I can't  wait to
show them  to my girls tonight.  I praise the  Lord for you and  for your
sharing this  with us.  I grew  up in Los  Angeles, California,  but with
reading  about your  experiences first  hand, it  is really  exciting for
me because  our backgrounds are so  diverse and I can  learn about people
and what  they have gone through  and are going through  with more under-
standing and  I can have  more compassion and  can better pray  for them.

Dear Heavenly Father,

Thank  you for  allowing  me to  meet such  interesting  people over  the
network.  Please help  our  brothers  and sisters  around  the world  and
help  us to  be able  to  understand and  love  everyone who  we come  in
contact with;  and Lord  I thank  you for my  background, even  though it
has been  a most  difficult one,  it has  not been  as trying  as Lubosh.
Father I thank  you for his testimony  so far and ask you  to continue to
use him not  only on Chritia but  wherever you take him.  Please give him
your joy, love,  and peace and put  a hedge of protection  around him and
his family.  In Jesus Name I pray.  Amen.

Your sister in Christ,

Shelby--Atlanta, GA.--Emory University
From: YST1@DCCCDBIT.BITNET (Yvette Traylor)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: God/Allah
Date: 12 Nov 92 15:05:11 GMT
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I thought that Allah was the God in the Koran. So is Allah the God of
Abraham, Issac and Jacob or is Allah the God of Abraham, Ishmael, and
Mohammad?

   Yvette Traylor     "We are His people and the sheep of his pasture."
   Dallas County Community College District             Psalm 100:3
   Computer Programmer/Analyst from Dallas - Texas
"I know worse things about myself that you will ever say about me." Anon
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Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 11:08:02 -0700
From:         "(MARK DRAKE)" <DRAKE@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU>
Subject:      RE: Attributes of Created Beings (was righteousness)

>> It is immpossible for a creature to be omnipotent, omnicient, and
>> omnipresent.

> Based on what evidence/argument?


>  ... the omni-* categories you
> have listed above do not by definition require that any being which has them
> be uncreated.

> For example: if it is possible for an omnipotent being to exist, then it seems
> possible for that being to create another omnipotent being.

> There may be a self-contradiction in the existence of two omnipotent beings,
> but that doesn't cause any major problems: God can create such a being, and
> thereby abrogate his own omnipotence.  (As in innumerable questions about a
> rock so big God can't lift it.)

I conceed.  I was assuming that creator retains his omnipotence after
creating an omnipotent creature.  I think though that I would say it
_ is, _ not "may be," a contradiction for two separate beings, with
separate natures, to both have the attribute of omnipotence over
creation.  I'd have to go look at an example of an
aurguement-from-first-principles before formulating such a thing.
Never having had (in)formal training, I need all the help I can get in logical
thinking.

> Please present Scripture references, or an argument-from-first-principles, to
> show that it is not possible for a creature to have the omni-* qualities you
> mention.

Well, I think I can give references to the effect that there is no other
being as powerful or more powerful than God.  I'd have to go home and
search them out, though.  I think they're in Psalms and Isaiah?


> Darren F Provine / kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu

Mark
drake@asuchm.la.asu.edu
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Date:         Wed, 11 Nov 1992 12:32:26 CST
From:         Jesse Irwin Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: WHAT WE OFFER GOD?
              11 Nov 1992 11:59:25 -0500 from <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>

Eric ;

So, if there is NO definition for "free will" as you say, in the Scriptures,
then HOW do you know that such a critter exists?  The Scriptures is our
ONLY basis for doctrine, not Calvin, nor someone's book on predestination, nor
Augustine and so forth.

Now, the reason for the "Thy will be done" statement.  Is it not rather, an
affirmation of our desire that the things that PLEASE the Lord be accomplished
on earth, rather than things that displease Him.

There are many things which the Lord uses for His own glory, but in and of
themselves, they do not PLEASE Him.

Example, as Dr. Luke reports in the book of Acts, Pilate, Herod and the Romans
got together and persecuted Christ for their own ends.  They did however, "what
your power and will had determined beforehand should happen."
Thus, these culprits did their "own will" only to do what God had predestined
should happen, in order that Christ might be crucified for His elect.
Nevertheless, these persons were guilty in their own right, despite that God
determined it to happen in time/space.


Jesse Carnes
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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 15:11:27 CST
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Predestination
              10 Nov 1992 14:47:20 CST from <hale@DINO.WES.ARMY.MIL>

Dear Matthew (the name is Malachi) ;

Can you tell me somethin' 'bout yourself ... mayby a thumbnail sketch of
yourself?


In the Sovereign and Free Grace of Christ ;

Jesse Carnes
From: NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET (Jesse Carnes)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: CHRIST, NOT PURGATORY
Date: 5 Nov 92 21:52:18 GMT
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              5 Nov 1992 18:59:43 GMT from <creps@SILVER.UCS.INDIANA.EDU>

Dear Steve Crepes ;

You're begging the quary a bit by saying that "of course salvation has
conditions..."

OK, why does Salvation   N E C E S S A R I L Y   HAVE to have conditions?
Why not another option like  :


        "F R E E    A N D    S O V E R E I G N     G R A C E"      ???

Jesse Carnes
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