Organization: Fantasy Farm Fibers
Subject: re: Need advice re: cattle
Newsgroups: misc.rural

Dave Sill wrote:

} My neighbor came over yesterday to ask me if I was interested in renting the
} land to him to run some cattle on. ...

Neighbors do that.. *THREE* did to us when we moved in :-)

} I was planning on buying a couple calves
} in the spring, but told him I'd be interested in working out some kind of
} deal where he'd show me the ropes--help me buy and raise two calves--in
} return for me letting him run 15 calves on my land.

This is a bad deal: he is doing you no favor in "showing you the ropes".
It is the other way around: you can offer to *help* him with the cattle.
That you might be learning something at the same time, well....

Around here, the "my cattle too" split is 50/50.   That is, instead of
renting him the land, you can have him manage a double-sized herd, where
1/2 of the animals are yours.  Letting him have 1/2 of the animals is
considered about the right 'fee' for having him take care of your half of
the herd for you and have the use of your land.

Another thing: don't expect to learn a whole huge amount.  Dunno
about tennesseeans, but the folk around here aren't very analytic
nor very scholarly, so you have a LOT of empirical randomness and
not a whole lot of reasoned, considered planning --- they do things
because "that's the way to do it" or "that seems to work OK",
rather than because they understand _why_, or what the downsides
are or anything like that [I'm reminded of the old joke about
cutting the end off of the roast beef....].  You'll learn a lot of
practical stuff, but it will be like guessing how a computer
program is coded by typing things at it: it is possible, and you
CAN learn a bunch, but it ain't like peeking at the source code
[OH, you mean it is _random_ whether the program says "yes" or "no"
to every third question...].  There is much to be learned, but I've
found that the 'average farmer' isn't much of a teacher.

Not to diminish the value of having and experienced person nearby:
the truth is that they really have seen most things that happen to
the animals or the farm, and they mostly know what to do, or at
least they'll know to do something that mostly [or almost..:-(] works.
They might not be able to explain to you WHY, nor give you enough
of an intuition about what is happening so you can figure out what
to do in a slightly different situation, but they'll for-sure be
able to help you sort out the mess at hand _somehow_.


} 1. What's the going rate for enough land to support 15 calves for a year?

What do you mean "going rate"?  Do you mean how much you should
charge for rent or how much land you'll need to support them?  Both
will depend on how well developed your land is and the going value
of land.  On the latter interpretation, I think that about an
acre-a-head will not be too far off.  So your 30 acres [if you
devote it all to the cattle] should be plenty.


} 2. What would be an equitable trade for the use of my land?  Should I ask
} him to buy my two calves, do all the tagging/deworming/vaccinations for
} them, feed them (he feeds crushed corn mixed with syrup), etc?  Is that
} asking too much or not enough?  How about if I do the daily
} feeding/watering?

As I say, around here the ration is not 2:15 but 50/50, although I
don't know the exact way the cost of feed is sorted out [but I
think that the "other guy" has to pay, and he does the daily chores
and all of that junk, including things like repairing fences, etc.]


} 3. How should I provide him access to the land?  We've got plenty of common
} fenceline--he could put in a gate, but it'd be in the woods, not the cleared
} area.  There's a gate into the front piece by the road, but it's probably
} too steep to drive a pickup through.  There's another gate into the back
} piece, but getting to it requires driving through our back yard, and I
} really don't want a lot of traffic there (kids and dogs, privacy).

He'll be going in and out a LOT, and often pulling things [like a
portable chute, or a trailer or a cart with six hay rolls on it,
not to mention having to bring the tractor in, too] *He'll* put in
the gate, but you and he should figure out a sensible place for it
so he can get through pretty easily.  Could he cut a road through
the woods?  It doesn't have to be all that big, and not all that
ugly.

Around here, the locals are REAL good at that [we just got through
connecting four of our farms together and I was amazed at how
quickly with a chain saw and a big tractor [to push things out of
the way, dig stumps, etc] you can get a serviceable [i.e.,
one--4wd-truck or tractor-wide driveable] road through what used to
be woods.  And you get a pile of firewood, to boot...  And if
someone around has a dozer, it is even easier: you jsut drive the
dozer where you want the road and it magically appears...:-)  


} 4. We've been enjoying hiking through the woods and fishing in the pond. 
} Will we still be able to do that with 17 calves running around in there? 
} How dangerous are they?  It would be pretty easy to fence off the woods if I
} had to.

Dangerous?  calves?   chuckle.  They're not an issue.  Moreover, if you
get even slightly involved in taking care of them they'll quickly learn that
you're a friend and they'll come by and follow you around and such [which
can be a mixed blessing, to be sure].  This is one problem you _won't_ have to
worry about.


} 5. What kind of terms and conditions should we agree to?  Should I get
} something in writing?  If it looks like I'm going to do this, I'll talk to
} the local ag. ext. agent.

Writing?  You're going to have to figure out a way to get along
with your neighbor, and trying to get something like this "in
writing" *NOT* a good way to start things off.  Now, if you had
2000 acres and were talking about a LOT of money, maybe, but for
just a handfull of your neighbor's cattle you should just mellow
out and roll with it. 

But by all means go talk to the extension agent... he can tell you
more about what is 'typical' in your neck of the woods, both in
terms of fees and in management arrangements.
  
  /Bernie\
-- 
Bernie Cosell                               cosell@world.std.com
Fantasy Farm Fibers, Pearisburg, VA         (703) 921-2358

Newsgroups: misc.rural