HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: scs8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Sebastian C Sears)
Subject: Sawtooth National Rec Area: INFO Needed
Reply-To: scs8@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Sebastian C Sears)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 01:15:00 GMT

In article <37814@unix.SRI.COM> shimizu@unix.SRI.COM (Dan Shimizu) writes:
>
>Here's my questions:
>How crowded do the popular (Stanley Lake, Iron Creek, etc.) campsites get? Do
>I need reservations?

	Generally, only Redfish *really* needs reservations. If you can't get
	into either of these sights (unlikely if you try both) you can always
	continue west on 21 and camp anywhere you want... it's (almost) all
	public SNRA land, open to camping... Besides, it shouldn't be any
	problem in September.

>What is the weather like? I'm bringing my gortex shell, do I need winterish
>weather gear?

	I can almost guarantee it will snow sometime in September. It snows
	pretty much any month of the year up there if it wants to. I would
	bring some *very* warm clothing, just to be on the safe side and
	stay happy in camp!

>I think I know the answer to this one, but I'll ask anyway...did the fires 
>affect the SNRA at all?

	What fires?

>BTW I plan on going to Goat lake which is off the Alpine trail, has anyone
>been up there lately, and could you report on it?

	Other guides I worked with went up there last year and it seemed like
	a good hike. Believe me, it *will* be cold up there! 

	Mail back if you have other questions...

=Stanley, Idaho===============Sea-Bass Sears====================New York City=
   o  1979 Yamaha XS750|Perception      )    Corsica|     |       1985  Toyota
 _/\_>       Just ride!|             o /            ||~~~~~~\___       4Runner
O,> /O   e-mail: scs8@ |  ~^~^ <====<\/====> ^~^    ||_--____--_)   Just about
cunixb.cc.columbia.edu |Just  ~^~^~^ / ^~^~^  kayak!|  ()    () anything else!
     If everything's coming your way, you're in the wrong lane!! - Anon
==============================-->DoD #0516<--=================================
From: allen%asylum.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Allen Sanderson)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Replacing metal Thermarest valves
Date: 13 Aug 92 15:55:22 GMT
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept

>In article <122440161@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM>, ajs@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Alan
>Silverstein) writes: 
>
>> If you own an older Thermarest mattress with a metal valve...  Write to:
>> 
>>     Cascade Designs
>>     4000 1st Avenue S.
>>     Seattle, WA  98134
>> 
>>     206-583-0583
>> 
>> and request a plastic replacement.

In articlewalvdrk@research.ptt.nl (Kees van der Wal +31 70 332 6295) writes:

>What's the advantage of the plastic version?

Your lips and tongue won't freeze to the metal valve when its cold.  Also
the plastic ones ares easier to close when your mouth is on the valve.

ARS
From: janbl@mesaadm.cre.nt.com (Jan Blair)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry,tek.general
Subject: Re: Insect repellent
Date: 12 Aug 92 13:32:45 GMT
Organization: NTI
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1b3

In article <6482@tekig7.PEN.TEK.COM> John F Stoops,
johnst@tekig6.PEN.TEK.COM writes:
>My son and I are about to go on our annual backpack trip on Ranier. 
Last year
>at Mowich Lake, the mosquitos were ferocious!  The regular insect
repellents
>helped some but I'd like something more effective.  I have heard that
Avon's
>"Skin So Soft" is a great bug repellent.  When I looked in my wife's Avon
>catalog, there were at least 6 different "Skin So Soft" products - bath
oil,
>body lotion, etc.  Can anybody tell me which of these is the right one
to use
>as bug repellent?  Also - has anybody had any experience with this stuff
- is
>it really effective?  Or do you know of a really effective brand of
insect
>repellent?
>     Please reply by e-mail.


Can't reply by e-mail, but maybe you'll get this posting.  Water down the
Skin-So-Soft bath oil if you are intent on using it and it works for you.
Three parts water, one part oil is OK.  Avon also offers an after bath
towlette that is easier to pack, and slightly less concentrated than the
oil.  I have had more success with a homeopathic (read: expensive) goo
called Sting Stop.  A light coating of this (best if applied to damp
skin) seems to work well. The Sting Stop also works "apres bite" to
relieve the itch.  If it's unbearable, the best response is to limit the
amount of skin exposed with long sleeves and a head net. You have to
weigh the disadvantages of this given the temperature.  Good luck.
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: ron@cup.hp.com (Ron Gould)
Subject: Re: Mono Pass area backpacking - INFO WANTED
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 17:16:45 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Cupertino, CA
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3

 Hi John,

>Is Bloody Canyon the canyon which holds Parker Lake, Walker Lake or
>Gibbs lake?  I was know it is one of them but haven't been into the latter
>two.  I believe Mono Pass can be approached from the west as well.  The
>confusion about the passes is completely justified.  The northern Mono
>pass is near Mono Lake 
  and Mono Craters
>                       whereas the southern Mono Pass is near Mono creek
>and Mono Hot Springs.  

  ... and Mono Recesses.

 Walker Lake is at the bottom of Bloody Canyon.  There are a couple of
 other lakes near the pass in Bloody Canyon, I believe Sardine Lakes.
 Approached from the west is up Parker Creek from the Tioga area.  Yes,
 Parker Pass is right next to this Mono Pass.
 
See you at Bear Lake, yea the one by Rock Creek,
Ron
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: cyeomans@ms.uky.edu (Charles Yeomans)
Subject: Re: Natural Bridge Ky.  Backpacking advise requested
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 17:36:19 GMT
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences

In article <1992Aug13.002241.18494@uceng.UC.EDU> fpaterek@uceng.UC.EDU (Franz Paterek) writes:
>I am considering backpaking for a couple of days in the Natural Bridge Kentucky 
>area.  Does anybody have any adivse on the nicest route to take.  Also I would
>like to know if anybody has a phone # for more information.  Along the trails are
>there cabins you can spend thenight in or do you have carry a shelter along with
>you.
>
>Harald

If you want to go overnight, you want to go to the Red River Gorge, rather
than Natural Bridge State Park, which is a resort park.

A guidebook to the area exists.  I don't recall the title offhand, but
you can purchase at Phillip Gall in Lexington.  They also have USGS
topo maps of the area.  I strongly recommend the guidebook in
conjuction with the topo maps, as the trail markers are frequently ripped down
by cretins.

I might mention that a popular activity in the area is for a group of people
to hike in with backpacks full of beer and guns, get shitfaced, big a big
fire and shoot at their empty beer cans.  In addition, some of the 
locals see the Daniel Boone NF as their hunting preserve, as well 
as prime dope-growing country.  If this sort of thing bothers you, then 
you might not want to go during late summer or early fall - 
although people generally keep their agricultural activities
out of the gorge area.

But before you start hearing "Dueling Banjos" in the background, let
me say that I have gone to the gorge, as well as other areas of
the Daniel Boone NF, at all times of the year and I have 
never had any trouble, or even worried - although i know other 
people who have had trouble.

I would wait until winter to go, if I were you.  WHen the leaves 
are off the trees, the gorge is really quite spectacular.

If you have more specific questions (like the ones in your post, send
me some e-mail and I will try to answer them.

Charles Yeomans
cyeomans@ms.uky.edu
yeomans@austin.onu.edu
From: rcm@flattop.ProgCons.COM (Ron McDowell)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Backcountry Coffee
Date: 15 Aug 92 19:03:58 GMT
Organization: Programming Consultants, Austin, TX

fzcapit@MIZAR.UCDAVIS.EDU (John Capitanio) writes:

>REI used to sell premade coffee bags (looked just like tea bags).

Folgers Coffee now sells 'coffee bags.'  Look for them at your favorite
grocery store, probably for a whole lot less than REI prices!
-- 
HUMAN:  Ron McDowell, +1 512 837-7245
USMAIL: 9538 Quail Village Lane, Austin, TX 78758
EMAIL:  uunet!uudell.dell.com!flattop!rcm or rcm@flattop.ProgCons.COM
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: AS.MSW@forsythe.stanford.edu (Marc Whitney)
Subject: Re: Oregon Wallowas...pack animals
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 20:15:13 GMT

In article <1992Aug21.232843.11433@eos.arc.nasa.gov>,
dencisco@eos.arc.nasa.gov (David Paul Encisco) writes:
>ddavidso@nyx.cs.du.edu (Durwood Davidson) writes:
>
>>>That "access for the physically disabled" stuff is bogus.
>>   I can also send you a brochure on Wilderness On Wheels, a company
>>here in Colorado that provides wilderness experiences for people in
>>wheelchairs.  They've been around for 3 years now so someone must be
>>using their services.
>>   The next time you want to support your arguments, please don't dump
>>on those less fortunate than you.  And have your facts straight too.
>
>Yes it's true, many of us well bodied individuals take for granted
>those less fortunate than ourselves. Forbid horses in the back
>country and you keep a lot of disabled people from enjoying the
>same feelings that you worship. No dogs in the National Parks; I'm
>reminded of that astounding blind man and his seeing eye dog making
>the entire Appalachian Trail trek. I must concur that if something

I think I may have been one of those who got this thread going.  So
just to make my position clear I would like to re-ittereate:

1-  I think transport by stock should be limited to the disabled or
infirm provided that these are defined to exclude what I called
self-induced infirmity, e.g. couch potatoism. <grin>  In otherwords
you don't qualify just because you pork-out at McFatburger and spend
your fee time in front of the tube.

2-  I think seeing eye dogs are a valid exception to the no dogs
rule.  The user of the SE dog should make their own judgement
regarding possible encounter with critters that may decide to treat
the dog as munchie!
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: jreece@sousa.intel.com (John Reece)
Subject: Re: MSR Stoves - Whisperlite (how about Peak I)
Reply-To: jreece@sousa.intel.com
Organization: Intel - Information Technologies
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 16:05:35 GMT

In article <CLINDH.92Aug19080513@marilyn.abalon.se>, clindh@abalon.se (Christer Lindh) writes:

> Has anyone out there used the new Coleman "Whisperlite lookalike"
> (forgot the name), that has a separate fuel reservoir/bottle just like
> the MSR's?  Looks good and all that, but what's the verdict?

The Apex is more like a dismembered Peak-1 Multi-fuel.  Performance
and total weight of ALL the components is about the same as for the
Multi-fuel.  It's not as compact as the Whisperlites.  It doesn't
officially burn kerosene, though it looks like the generator from the
Multi-fuel would fit perfectly.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Reece			"Oop. Ack. Pfffthpt"	
Not an Intel spokesman 			- Bill the Cat 
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: AS.MSW@forsythe.stanford.edu (Marc Whitney)
Subject: Re: Little Plastic Fasteners
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 23:26:09 GMT

In article <1992Aug17.191349.21927@midway.uchicago.edu>,
bjr@oddjob.uchicago.edu (Bernie Rauscher) writes:
>I recently acquired a new tent. It came with a little bag containing
>some lengths of chord, and for each length or chord, a little plastic
>fastener. The fasteners are about 1.25 inch long, 0.5 inch wide, and
>.125 inch thick. They have three evenly spaced holes that are big enough
>to accept either the chord or a metal stake.
>
>Does anybody know how these plastic gizmos are to be used?
>
>
They are supposed to extry guy lines in the event you encounter
serious storms.  Note the velcro strips -- they should be wrapped
around a tent pole so that the guy doesn't merely attach to the rain
fly.

Don't ask me if they work, I've never tried them.
From: jwa@hpuerca.atl.hp.com (Jim Andress)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: GAZ stove and lantern
Date: 14 Aug 92 20:11:04 GMT
Organization: the HP Response Center, Atlanta

I have been using a GAZ hp470 stove for over a year now and love it.  The stove
itself is the smallest and lightest available, and the fuel isn't very heavy
either unless you have to carry alot of it - which is the other drawback; it's
fairly bulky.  I haven't been able to test it below about 25 degrees F, but
think it's great for short (< 1 week) trips.
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: jrcodl@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Subject: Re: Water sterilization w/ iodine
Reply-To: jrcodl@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1992 03:37:48 GMT

According to Medicine for Mountaineering:
Iodine crystals(2 to 8 gm,USP grade,resublimated) are placed in a 30cc
(1 oz) clear glass bottle with a paper lined bakelite cap.The bottle is
filled with water and shaken vigorously, but must be allowed to stand for
aproximately one hour to produce a saturated solution.  After that, one
half of the supernatant (15cc) is poured into one liter of water to be
disinfected.  
The above method should treat moderately turbid water in about 10 min.
Cold water takes longer.
The original solution should be at 68F or above (keep the little
bottle in your shirt)
Good Luck
I've used this method for years.  
John (the uninfected)
From: misterl@athena.mit.edu (Lawrence P Lubowsky)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Comments on Yellowstone
Date: 20 Aug 92 19:05:18 GMT
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology

In article <10198@vice.ICO.TEK.COM> hall@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Harold F Lillywhite) writes:
>In article <1992Aug20.011237.8653@news.eng.convex.com> oexmann@convex.com (Carla Oexmann) writes:
>
>>like that ).  He mentioned an experiment where they put heart monitors 
>>on elk and watched as snowmobiles and xc skiers went by.  After the
>>first part of the season, the monitors showed scarcely a blip when the
>>snowmobilers went by, but skyrocketed when the skiers went by.
>
>Well, there has to be a reason for this.  I can't believe elk would
>naturally be more afraid of a skier than a noisy snowmobile.
>However they aren't totally stupid and would quickly learn something
>about the behavior of each type of intruder.  My guess is that the
>cause is one of two things:
>
> [resonable conclusions ommitted]


It's been a year since I read the book, but I think I remember the
reasons given.  Snowmobilers are restricted to existing trails and
roads, most of which receive heavy automobile use during the summer
months.  As loud and obnoxious as some people may consider the
snowmobiles, the animals in Yellowstone are used to strange, loud,
moving vehicles on these roads.  

Skiers, on the other hand, aren't restricted to certain paths.  They
are free to roam over the landscape as they choose.  In areas which
are free of humans for most of the year, the animals are suddenly
encountering these quiet, but very bright :^), objects moving smoothly
across the land.  


Added anecdote:  While I was in Yellowstone two years ago, the vast
areas of land which surrounded most of the roads were highly populated
with wildlife, particularly bison.  Therefore, most people didn't
venture off the roads in these areas.  Lo and behold...we're driving
along and we pass a huge empty grassy meadow.  About 1/2 mile away I
see two figures.  I break out the binoculars, and then I get nervous.
The bigger figure was one of the biggest buffalo I saw on that trip.
Around ten yards from him is a touron who is apparently trying to
capture a "nature shot."  There he was, far from safety, setting up
his tripod.  I wonder if he survived...

Larry

--
  Larry Lubowsky         | I'm looking for a job in the Boston area.
  misterl@athena.mit.edu | Computers, Bio-electrical Eng., Medicine
			 | MIT Graduate.  Ask me for my resume.
From: jjh00@outs.ccc.amdahl.com (Joel J. Hanes)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: accessible = !wilderness (WAS Re: Oregon Wallowas
Summary: nibbled to death is still dead
Keywords: horseshit erosion crowds trash
Date: 13 Aug 92 19:57:32 GMT
Reply-To: jjh00@OUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Joel J. Hanes)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

>>  trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna) writes:
>>>
>>> Pack animals should not be allowed beyond the parking lot, as they
>>> further reduce in scale the tiny fragments of remaining wilderness.


>  karlm@sequent.com (Karl Maerz) writes:
>
>>Wayne, you often sound like a spoiled little boy who wants only
>>his way to prevail and all the toys to himself.  Why don't you
>>just say "Everyone and every thing should be banned from the
>>backcountry except for me and the things I like?"  That is a
>>more honest approach.


  trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna) writes:
>
>Wilderness is scarce and diminishing.  Access and wilderness run
>contrary to each other.  The question is where to draw the line.


Wayne is talking wilderness, Karl backcountry.
There's plenty of National Forest and BLM land
for packers -- but heavy use by *anyone* eventually
transforms wilderness into someting else -- a park.

That distinction having been made, I'm with Wayne.

Elitist bastard that I am, I'll even say it:

  "Everyone and everything should be banned from the
   *wilderness* except the small number of people who are
   willing and able to get there the hard way, and their
   simple gear.  If impact increases, access should be made
   more difficult, and more restrictions placed on gear."

Note that since I'm getting old and sedentary, the policy
I am here advocating will soon prevent me from
travelling in real wilderness ever again.

Definite examples:  The Boundary Waters Canoe Area in
northern Minnesota is a nice park, but not a wilderness.
Concrete and steel fireplaces, constructed latrines,
posted and maintained trails.  Lots o' people.
Its own _magazine_, for God's sake.    Feh.

Some parts of the Quetico Provincial Park directly to
the north were, last I visited, still wilderness.
Lousy trailheads. Entrance restrictions, permits required.
Bad, ill-mapped portages blocked by years of deadfalls.
Some lakes _very_ difficult to get to.


---
Joel Hanes



     The human race is bound to defile, I've often noticed it,
     Whatever they can reach or name, they'd shit on the
		     morning star
	     If they could reach....

			Robinson Jeffers,
                        _The_Double_Axe_and_Other_Poems_, 1977



"Owls die every day."

              Hon. Manuel Lujan, Jr., Secretary of the Interior
From: dencisco@eos.arc.nasa.gov (David Paul Encisco)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: No dogs in Natl Parks
Date: 21 Aug 92 17:58:40 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: NASA Ames Research Center


>We went to RMNP and they did not allow dogs in the backcountry!!!

Horses, llamas, goats, bikes and now dogs. Where are the cat defenders!
Your subject header was "no dogs in National Parks". Isn't there at
least a few places that we can consider exempt from man's
entourage of domesticated beasts (bikes being the exception).
With all the National Forest Land you shouldn't be too hard press
to find someplace to pack with your dog. You could probably take
a cow into the National Forest if you wanted.
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: AS.MSW@forsythe.stanford.edu (Marc Whitney)
Subject: Re: Oregon Wallowas...pack animals
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 22:50:11 GMT

In article <1992Aug14.152014.26627@ms.uky.edu>,
cyeomans@ms.uky.edu (Charles Yeomans) writes:
>In article <1992Aug13.195208.22980@colorado.edu> stjohn@newton.Colorado.EDU (MATTHEW STJOHN) writes:
>>In article <1992Aug12.163517.24127@eos.arc.nasa.gov> dencisco@eos.arc.nasa.gov (David Paul Encisco) writes:
>>>karlm@sequent.com (Karl Maerz) writes:
>>>
>>>>trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna) writes:
>>>>>...
>>>>>
>>>>>Pack animals should not be allowed beyond the parking lot, as they
>>>>>further reduce in scale the tiny fragments of remaining wilderness.
>>>
>>>>Here are some other equally stupid and inflamatory assertions:
>>>
>>>>* There is an infinitesimally small segment of the general population,
>>>>  known collectively as the Truly Enlightened(tm).
>>>>* Children should not be allowed in wilderness areas since they
>>>>  spoil the asthetics...
>>>
>>>>Wayne, you often sound like a spoiled little boy who wants only
>>>>his way to prevail and all the toys to himself.
>>>>Someone suggested that you LIGHTEN UP.  Excellent recommendation.
>>>
>>>Well it could be that Wayne is acting like a caged canary in a coal
>>>mine. But with regards to Wayne's original premise (pack animals
>>>should not be allowed...(in the back country)) I would have to agree
>>>that backpacker's are suffering at the expense of packers....
>>>
>>
>>After spending several days many years ago repairing trails damaged
>>by horses, I have to agree with Wayne and David. The erosion caused
>>by pack animals on trail is rediculous. I talked to a ranger one
>>time about this and he said that many eastern senators think that
>>pack animals are natural so they should be allowed in the back
>>country. Pack animals were introduced to this part of the world by
>>European explorers, and the wilderness here is just not designed
>>to handle the destuction caused by them. Tells you how much our
>>federal government know :).
>>
I vote for limiting the pack animals to at least a few trails.  Next
I would suggest limiting them to carying only individuals with
non-self-inflicted physical limitations.  I.e., couch potato(e)s
need not apply.  Most people I see ridding or walking and having the
stock do the work are just overweight and out of shape.
(considering the octegenarians and children I've seen carrying their
own stuff, you've got to pretty infirm to to have an excuse!)  At
the same time I would hate to see the Sierra crest made inaccessable
to persons who have a legitamate disability.
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: geraghty@emba-news.uvm.edu.UUCP (Kevin M Geraghty)
Subject: Re: more on elk, moose, and other beasties
Originator: geraghty@newton.emba.uvm.edu
Organization: University of Vermont -- Division of EMBA Computer Facility
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1992 20:36:41 GMT

From article <1992Aug22.185758.13811@colorado.edu>, by sherod@news.Colorado.EDU (Scott Herod):
> I went and checked at the library.
> 
> Order Artiodactyla   (even-toed cud chewers)
> 
>      Family Cervidae  (deer)
>            Includes Moose (European Elk), Elk (Amer. Wapiti),
>            Euro. Red Deer (very similar to wapiti), Caribou,
>            reindeer (both Rangifer, genus or species?), Altai-Wapiti
>            (Asian deer Maral), etc
> 
> 
>      Family Giraffidea  (only two species)
> 
>      Family Antilocapridae  (Pronghorn only species)
> 
>      Family Bovidae   (Cattle)
>             Goats, sheep, Bison (American, European), Buffalo,
>             Cattle, Musk Ox, and Antelope.
> 

This is the sort of stuff that makes many people regard taxonomists as
nuts: Old-world antelope are more closely related to cows than they
are to pronghorn.

Looks like this is all finally pretty much straightened out, but one
lingering question.  We have

Moose   very similar to European elk
caribou  "     "     "  European reindeer
wapiti   "     "     "  European red deer

Where "very similar" means that to you or me, they look exactly the same.
How many of these pairs are regarded as separate species?
Presumably there was opportunity for the pairs to belong to the
same gene pool until the Bering land bridge disappeared 20,000 (?)
years ago.

Kevin Geraghty