HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: crittend@cs.unc.edu (bac)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: HYPOCRISY of Public School Prayer
Date: 11 Oct 92 01:03:18 GMT
Organization: The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

vxv4@po.cwru.edu (Virgilio Velasco) writes:
>	Furthermore, it is not accurate to call them either
>"fundamentalist" or "Christian".  Bush, for instance, is an
>Episcopalian.  This means that his beliefs would not generally be
>considered "fundamentalist".

by pointing out that Mr. Bush is an episcopalian and then drawing
conclusions about his beliefs, Dean is proposing all views of
episocaplians can be grouped together.  i submit that i do not believe
this to be the case.

but, for the sake of discussion, let's assume it is.  then i would
argue that Mr. Bush's public stances on these "morality" issues do not
align very well with traditional episcopal thinking.  this is,
afterall, a man whose campaign rhetoric has been labelled "heretical"
by his presiding bishop.

given the inconsistency between his views and those of his
denomination i should think he could easily be called a
"fundamentalist" as his stated views align with the fundamentalists
although his denominational affiliation does not.  whether these views
he supports are his true beliefs or just the stances he has taken for
political gain is a matter only he and his advisers know.  however,
the evolution of his beliefs do provide fodder for a lively debate.

>	If a child chooses to pray in school, is that "forcing" prayer
>on the other children?  Certainly not!  The others are perfectly free to
>pray or not to pray, as they see fit.

this argument is only true of voluntary, silent prayer.  if this is
the type of school prayer you advocate then this discussion is moot.
silent prayer is purely a mental process.  no school administrator or
supreme court justice can control the activities in your mind.

i echo our moderator's call for clarification on exactly what those in
favor of school prayer actually want.  when explaining please address
the hard issues of what to do when the leader is of a different faith
from those being led in prayer.  are christian parents willing to
allow a non-christian teacher lead their children in a prayer to a
non-christian god?  should the flavor of the prayer be determined by
the majority belief in the community?  how should the rights of the
religious minority be protected?


_________brad crittenden_________________________crittend@cs.unc.edu_________

A brontosaurus is a salamander designed to Mil-Spec.
		-- A Fortune Cookie
_____________________________________________________________________________
From: ljh655@cscgpo.anu.edu.au (ljh655)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re:Dating...
Date: 13 Oct 92 05:36:04 GMT
Organization: Australian National University

So, someone else started this "hot" topic...
Recent surveys in Australia show that something like 46 %
of single women under 30 are "not interested to make a
commitment" in a relationship with a man (or "another
person" for those touchy different-minded), and are not
dating at alllllll ! Most of them say the "single life" is
much easier and feels much more independent...
Imagine, 46 % ! That is a lot of folks, and I can tell it
is quite hard to feel for a young man trying to find the
right young woman... This is not certainly not just my
experience. Whenever a young single woman sends any
message or article across the network, she would most
probably be flooded with responses. Yes, there must be
something wrong happening, or probably the young people
(not just women) are still not capable to understand that
a real life-long commitment is not going to take away
their happiness and freedom (if they have it at all).
All for now to leave some space for your opinion, too.
God bless you all !
Lubosh


This posting reminds me of my good single 33 year old male friend.  He has
spent so long being a friend of everyone that he has trouble making the switch
to dating.  He is a good looking, positive, very active Christian whose
requirements are simple: A woman who shares his faith in the Lord.  He works
so hard (maybe not so hard - he is a very likeable fellow) to be friends
first, that he just never gets around to it.  Naturally, he would prefer that
the person have been unmarried, but of course, that is getting rarer and rarer.
Previously married women seem to be very skittish about even getting involved.  In the meantime, he's getting older and watching all of this with a concerned
eye.  I guess wholesomeness and trust have left us.  But he keeps on trying.
-- 
Kershner Wyatt
kwyatt@ccscola.ColumbiaSC.ncr.com

My opinions are my own and aren't necessarily my employer's.
From: ward@sun17.vlsi.uwaterloo.ca (Paul Ward)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Questions that trouble me
Date: 9 Oct 92 08:12:40 GMT
Organization: University of Waterloo

[I said that transubstantiation is a specifically Catholic doctrine.
ewanco responded that it applies to Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans,
and Lutherans. --clh]

The Anglican Church does not accept transubstantiation.

[Sorry, I should have caught this in the first place.  Neither
Anglicans nor Lutherans mandate it.  My impression is that the
Anglicans seem to hold a more general "real presence", and to regard
transsubstantiation as one allowable explanation (probably not the
most common) for how the real presence works.  The Lutherans also
believe in the real presence, but have a more specific explanation for
it, which is somewhat different from transsubstiation.  I don't know
Orthodox doctrine.  --clh]
From: nordenga@tc.fluke.COM (Arnold E. Nordeng)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: David Hocking and Solid Rock
Date: 10 Oct 92 06:27:50 GMT
Organization: John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc., Everett, WA

Hello Folk.

I heard some very disturbing news to me this morning.  I heard that
David Hocking's radio program 'Solid Rock' was cancelled due
to (I quote the Christian radio I was listening to) "moral failure".
The radio station followed that it is a constant reminder that 
Jesus is the Solid Rock in which we stand upon and that all other 
ground is sinking sand.
I am a big fan of David Hocking; IMO, he is probably one of the greatest men
of God I have ever had the privilege to meet.  

Does anyone have any details of what happened?  I am not a listener to the
program because I do not receive the AM station from which it is broadcasted.

My sincerest prayers go out for David Hocking, and I hope this is some
dumb misunderstanding that I have.

Please email me.  I can post a summary.

Thankyou and God Bless,
In Christ.

-Arnold Nordeng
nordenga@tc.fluke.COM
From: jkk@aiai.ed.ac.uk (John Kingston)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: ** Dating **
Date: 9 Oct 92 08:07:24 GMT
Reply-To: jkk@aiai.ed.ac.uk (John Kingston)
Organization: AIAI, University of Edinburgh, Scotland

Hmmm... I think some of this needs comment ...

In article <Oct.7.01.16.16.1992.10702@geneva.rutgers.edu> easteee@wkuvx1.bitnet writes:
>Each person
>should pray with one another and for each other and feel free to have
>bible studies together. 

This isn't always a good idea. As a married woman I know once said, "Praying
together brings you very close - even closer than sex, sometimes".  While
praying *for* each other is to be encouraged, praying *with* each other may
be unhelpful in the early stages of a relationship, particularly if the two of
you are alone when you pray.

 
>If the other person can't
>look caringly into your soul and help you and your walk with the Lord
>(and vice versa), GET RID OF THEM.

This statement could be misinterpreted, I think. If your date is explicitly or
implicitly drawing you away from the Lord (no matter how wonderful or charming
a person he/she is), then you should strongly consider finishing the
relationship. But if your date doesn't seem to care as much as you'd like,
doesn't take the spiritual lead as much as you (woman) would like, doesn't pay
you as much attention as you'd like, or whatever, this is NOT a sufficient
reason for dumping them immediately. Finishing a relationship usually causes
greater hurt to the one who didn't decide to wind it up than to the finisher,
so FOLLOW THE LORD but BE CAREFUL. 

> If you are unsure, by all means
>use your God-given power to pray about it.

In my experience, at least, relationships are possibly the most difficult
subject to pray about, because the strength of your own feelings make it hard
to discern any answer to prayer. It's wise to talk to a
pastor/minister/elder/mature individual in the church (preferably of the same
sex), explain the situation, and ask for their advice. (It's also wise to take
the advice, unless it seems so outrageous that you decide to check it with 
someone else first).



John Kingston,                               | 
Knowledge Engineering Methods Group,         | The heart of the problem
AIAI, University of Edinburgh                | is the problem of the heart
E-mail jkk@aiai.ed.ac.uk, phone 031-650 2736 |
From: hlynka@server.uwindsor.ca (Myron Hlynka)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: music to How Great Thou Art
Date: 10 Oct 92 06:38:49 GMT

Can anyone tell me about the music for the song How Great
Thou Art. Who composed it? When? Where?

Thanks.
                         Myron Hlynka
From: teh@latcs1.lat.oz.au (Richie L C TEH)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Prayer Request from SFC Latrobe Uni, Victoria Australia
Date: 16 Oct 92 05:26:25 GMT
Article-I.D.: geneva.Oct.16.01.26.25.1992.27272
Organization: Comp Sci, La Trobe Uni, Australia

Hi everyone,

 Here's a prayer request from SFC in Latrobe uni. SFC stands for
Student For Christ and it's purpose is to spread the previous word of
God to students in university around Australia.SFCs are active in
almost all tertiary institution in the state of Victoria and New South
Wales in Australia. I'm not sure if the other state have SFCs.

 A couple of weeks ago, the SFC in latrobe university in Melbourne
organised a seminar on the topic Sexuality. This was held on two days
during lunch time.  During the seminar, there were interuptions from
people from the Gay & Lesbian group in Latrobe. It got to a point
where these people were shouting obscenity at the people attending the
seminar. Despite these interuptions, the seminar was a success.

 The problem got worse now because the Gay & Lesbian group are trying
to throw SFC out of Latrobe, by filing complain to the Student Union
in latrobe. Please pray for us here that this incident would not seize
the activity that SFC are doing at Latrobe. Believe me, the Gay &
Lesbian group and other left wing group presence in Latrobe is a big
one and they can do anything. Also, please pray that this incident
will touch some of them. Obviously, they felt treaten about all this.
Thanks you.

God Bless!!!!


Richie Teh
-- 
Richie   ( that's me....)
From: guenther@ira.uka.de (Guenther Schreiner)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Revelations...
Date: 14 Oct 92 04:24:38 GMT
Organization: University of Karlsruhe, FRG

In article <Oct.13.01.27.29.1992.21988@geneva.rutgers.edu>, bb099@cleveland.freenet.edu (Adam Trent Phillips) writes:
|> 
|> 	How do you all out there know that they guy who wrote it
|> was not mental ? I do not mean that as a flame or anything, but it
|> seems as if the guy who wrote it was mental or on LSD or something...

There are some rules, what to do with prophetic words:

 1. Thess 5: 19-20
	Despise not prophesyings.
	Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
      
 1. Cor 14:26	
	How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of
	 you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a
	 revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done
	 unto edifying.

 1. Cor 14:29-31
	Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
	If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the
	 first hold his peace.
	For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and
	 all may be comforted.

First of all we have to check the prophetic words against the bible.
Another thing is to look at the life of the person, who give these words,
 if this is possible.  Does he have a personal relationship to Jesus, ...
And last but not least it is mandatory for `prophetic' people in our days,
 that they are open for criticism (in opposite to prophets in the days of
 the OT) and subordination under the leaders of the church.
 

:) Guenther

--
 Guenther Schreiner                     | University of Karlsruhe, Germany
  c/o Fakultaet fuer Informatik      ---+---
  Am Fasanengarten 5                    | Phone:    (+49) 721 608-3980
  7500 Karlsruhe 1                      | FAX:      (+49) 721 699284
                                        | INTERNET: guenther@ira.uka.de
 X.400: G=Guenther/S=Schreiner/OU=Informatik/PRMD=UNI-KARLSRUHE/ADMD=DBP/C=DE/;
--
From: drice@ponder.csci.unt.edu (Keith Rice)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: HYPOCRISY of Public School Prayer
Date: 9 Oct 92 08:19:09 GMT
Organization: University of North Texas

In <Oct.7.01.49.13.1992.10911@geneva.rutgers.edu> mcelwre@cnsvax.uwec.edu writes:
>               Bush, Reagan, and a LOT of SELF-RIGHTEOUS fundamentalist 
>          "Christians" want to RE-IMPOSE prayer into the public 
>          schools, as well as in certain government ceremonies, etc.. 
>               But what did Jesus Christ HIMSELF say about people who 
>          pray in public?  In Matthew 6:5 he called them HYPOCRITES!  ...
>               Parents who want their kids to openly and verbally pray 
>          in school can send them to PAROCHIAL schools, as well as to 
>          Sunday school, withOUT forcing it on others. 

OK, Robert.  Here we go again!

Look at the passage closely, starting with verse 1:

	1	"Be careful not to do your `acts of righteousness' before
	men, to be seen by them.  If you do, you will have no reward from
	you Father in heaven."

Now to verse 5:

	5	"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they
	love to pray standing in the synogogues and on the street corners
	to be seen by men.  I tell you the truth, they have received their
	reward in full."


In these verses, Jesus is not condemning prayer in public.  He is comdemn-
ing the attitude of the hearts of the Pharisees.  The Pharisees were well-
known for their public praying.  They would stand in the streets, praying
aloud, for all to hear.  This was their purpose.  They did it so that they
would appear to be spiritual.  They did it for the sake of their own ego.
They wanted to be seen by men when they prayed, and this was accomplished,
which was why Jesus Christ said in v. 5, "they have received their reward
in full."

Again, I suggest that you look at the whole passage.  Take into consider-
ation who is being spoken to and who is begin spoken of.  Also, pay atten-
tion to each phrase.

--
_____________________________
__-----____--___--__-----____	D. Keith Rice
__--__--___--__--___--__--___	University of North Texas
__--___--__--_--____--___--__	Department of Computer Science
__--___--__----_____--__--___	Denton, Texas, USA
__--___--__--_--____--_--____
__--__--___--__--___--__--___	drice@ponder.csci.unt.edu
__-----____--___--__--___--__
_____________________________
From: Bjorn.B.Larsen@delab.sintef.no (Bjorn B. Larsen)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Men's/Women's Roles in Marriage
Date: 14 Oct 92 04:13:33 GMT
Reply-To: bjorn.b.larsen@delab.sintef.no
Organization: delab

In article <Oct.13.01.22.42.1992.21961@geneva.rutgers.edu>
wagner@grace.math.uh.edu (David Wagner) writes:

> I have found it interesting to note that Peter says that a wife
> should submit even to an unbelieving husband, so that she might
> win him to Christ 'without words'.  God's will that the wife
> 'submit is not conditional on the husband's faith or behavior--

In this discussion of submittance and headship, we should remember one
small item: The Bible tells a wife to submit to *her* husband, not to
anybody's husband. In the same way the husband is sopposed to lead
*his* family, not anybody's family.

In Him,

Bj{\o}rn
--
______________________________________________________________________
               s-mail:                 e-mail:
|   |   |      Bjorn B. Larsen         bjorn.b.larsen@delab.sintef.no
|__ |__ |      SINTEF DELAB
|  \|  \|      N-7034 TRONDHEIM        tel: +47-7-592682 / 592600
|__/|__/|_     NORWAY                  fax: +47-7-591039 / 594302
______________________________________________________________________
From: Amy.L.Cavender.1@nd.edu (Amy Cavender)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: New user
Date: 15 Oct 92 02:35:13 GMT
Organization: University of Notre Dame

Hi!  I just discovered this group this morning, and have been enjoying
reading through the posted material.  I particularly enjoyed the discussion
on Communion/transubstantiation.  I'd be particularly interested in a
discussion by folks who have switched Christian traditions--what did you
switch from or to, and why--the "why" could lead to some interesting
discusisons of theology (the interest is prompted by Mary Otto's note on
transubstantiation, where she notes that she was a Roman Catholic until
about two years ago--about eighteen months ago, I moved in the other
direction, from a generic Evangelical Protestantism to Roman Catholicism,
and beliefs concerning the Eucharist were part of the reason).

Amy Cavender
Amy.L.Cavender.1@nd.edu
From: anonymous@hmivax.humgen.upenn.edu (Liz Broadwell)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: damnation
Date: 17 Oct 92 02:20:58 GMT
Organization: Society of Independent Newswaifs

Back a bit in my life, I went through a period of being depressed, frightened,
and angry.  I began cutting myself off from my friends and from God -- refusing
to talk, refusing to pray.  I knew that I wasn't doing well (or right) under
the circumstances, but I was too ashamed (read:  too proud) to admit that I was
behaving badly.  I just wanted everyone to leave me alone so that I could
straighten things out myself.

Then one night I dreamed that everyone *had* left me alone.  I was trapped
inside a glass jar, cut off from God, my family, and my friends.  Worse, they
didn't even seem to realize I was present, no matter how hard I tried to get
their attention.  And then, as they say, everything went black -- I was all by
myself in the dark, with the realization that *this* was what I was choosing. 
I had gotten exactly what I wanted, and it was the most miserable, most
terrifying experience imaginable.

Ever since then, I have had a clear referent for the term "damnation."


* Liz Broadwell (by643@cleveland.freenet.edu) ***************************
* Department of English                       *   Cor ad Cor Loquitur   *
* The University of Pennsylvania              ***************************
                                    
Newman Centenary Celebration * 1893-1993 * 100 Years of Campus Ministry!
From: jmrg9881@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Jon Reid)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Cell Group Churches -- contrasted with "normal" churches
Date: 7 Oct 92 05:18:24 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

Here's a chart outlining some of the differences between cell group
churches and traditional, building-based, program-based churches:


        NEW TESTAMENT CHURCH            CHURCH OF TODAY
        --------------------            ---------------

Location
        Meets in houses and buildings   Meets mainly in church buildings

Size Of Groups
        Small, intimate groups          Large, impersonal groups

Activities
        Daily fellowship                Weekly worship services

Support System
        Building up one another         Problem? See the pastor

Relationships
        Intimate; Helping one another   Remote; Little transparency

Discipling
        Groups of 2-3;                  Classes, notebooks;
        Modeling;                       Little modeling;
        Personal values shaped          Values not shaped

Primary Tasks Of Leaders
        Equipping every believer to     Directing the traditional
        do the work of the ministry     building-based church

Prayer Life
        Daily; Together, purposeful     Limited, directionless;
                                        Individual choice

Pastor's Duty
        Model the life of a believer    Preach good sermons

Expectations Of Members
        Ministering to others; Total    Attendance; Tithing;
        servanthood and stewardship     Work in the "programs"

Perspective
        Small Groups the focal point    Congregation the focal point

Key Words
        "Go and make disciples"         "Come and grow with us"

Teachings
        Apply the Scripture to needs    Subscribe to the distinctive
        and relationships               beliefs of this church

Spiritual Gifts
        Regularly exercised by all      Either downplayed or often used as
        believers to build up others    a "crowd-pleaser" in public
        in the Small Group gatherings   services

Commitment
        To increase the Kingdom;        To enlarge the institution;
        Unity, Body life                Uniformity

Evaluation Test
        "How you serve"                 "What you know"

Source For Securing Staff
        Servant workers developed       Trained, professional clergy
        within; Tested before they
        are set apart for ministry


Taken from _Where Do We Go From Here?_ by Ralph Neighbour
(Touch Publications / 1-800-735-5865)

-- 
Jon Reid    j-reid@uiuc.edu    GEnie: THE.REIDS
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose."
From: ricko@ee.uts.edu.au (Rick Jelliffe)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Christ vs. chronic depression?
Date: 17 Oct 92 02:09:40 GMT
Organization: University of Technology, Sydney

aslt@acad2.alaska.edu writes:

>Listened in on an interesting ad hoc discussion which boiled down to whether 
>'Christian' and 'chronically depressed' were mutually exclusive terms.
>What's the net.opinion on this?

I've emailed seperately, but I don't think they are:

* a life swimming against the mainstream is sometimes difficult, but
we should be of good cheer, because Christ has overcome the world

* a christian's life is one where he allows God's grace to perfect his
mind, being transformed; so we should be surprised to find ourselves
imperfect

* if we are in grave sin, depression might be a good thing, if it makes us
repent: even some Saints suffered depression sometimes

* depression can be caused by things unconnected with being a Christian:
physical sickness, denial, being trapped in a crisis. However, grace can
help lead someone out of many crises, as the Psalmist knew. 

* mental illness often is characterized by misplaced importance: christianity
can help lift our minds off and out of our distress and can put us into
perspective. St Thomas Aquinas, writing on Jesus being the Logos, said
"reason is the mind of God made manifest in the universe". By encouraging
reason in ourselves, we do, in a sense "incarnate" God in ourselves, or
at least allow ourselves to be in his image: since God is good, that 
can restore us to happiness.

* Aquinas also defines our will as our appetite for good. Depression 
masks our ability to recognise the good, hence a decrease in will-power.
Christianity on the other hand can increase our understanding of and appetite
for good: that works against depression too.

-ricko