From: shetline@bbn.com (Kerry Shetline)
Newsgroups: rec.audio
Subject: Losing My Religion (Was...many times tangentially removed)
Date: 10 Jan 93 15:26:24 GMT
Followup-To: rec.audio
Organization: BBN
NNTP-Posting-Host: bbn.com

In article <3340372@hpcc01.corp.hp.com>, kirk@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Kirk
Lindstrom) wrote:
> HUH?
> Have you read ANY of the references posted the past few weeks?
> Have you LISTENED to a SINGLE CD player where all that was changed was
> the Versatil Link (HP) where one had more "systematic jitter" than the
> other?  I have and it is noticable with even a $400, 1987 technology
> player.
> Have you listened to CD players with coax and TOSLINK interfaces and
> compared the two?

Yes I have. And about the only room for improvement-by-cable that I can
find in anything mentioned here MIGHT be when one or both pieces of
equipment at either end of the cable is badly designed or defective. I
would think (and have stated so) that noise immunity could play a role, but
reasonable immunity is easy to achieve and shouldn't take a pile of money.
I suppose impedance problems could matter as well, but again only in
marginal situations.

I'm still trying to read the January Stereophile article on jitter, but no
newsstand around here carries it, and the local library still has nothing
later than December available. Does the article get into cables, anyway?

As for having gone out and tested coax vx. TOSLINK, no. TOSLINK is fiber
optic cable, correct? If so, I would think that a test of one type of coax
vx. another might be more germane here, otherwise it complicates the matter
with the question of whether or not the optical receiver is doing its job
correctly. Not that I consider that a very likely candidate for signal
distortion, but a little more that cable differences. Still, if the optical
link produces the same bit stream with the same timing as the coax, I would
stand by 'bits-r-bits'.

If I can find a salesman at the kind of store that carries outboard DACs
that, once he smells I'm not a very likely buying customer, will still
glady set up a coax-vs-TOSLINK, or coax-vs-$coax$ demonstration, then maybe
I'll give this test a whirl. But, if you read what I said about triage, you
know that I believe that we all have standards about what we are willing to
spend our time investigating, and on my scale of reasonable, questionable,
and absurd, the digital cable issue leans strongly toward the absurd end. I
will probably only test it if it's awfully damn convenient to do so.

Of course, if I do try it out, and don't hear any difference, will that
matter any to you? Maybe my ears just aren't good enough. Maybe, you might
think, my prejudices just won't allow me to hear, or admit that I hear, a
difference.

You would be perfectly justified in doubting the value of the results that
I might report to you. Just as I am justified in doubting your claim that
you do hear a difference between coax and TOSLINK. The unwillingness to
accept subjective claims that aren't rigorously tested exists on both sides
of the fence.

But like I said, we all have our standards about what is worth spending
time on. Which is why I might mention a blind or double-blind A/B test, but
I'm not going to throw it down like a gauntlet. It's a lot of trouble to
set up such a test, and if you don't (or haven't), it would be unfair of me
to make much of anything out of it. Hell, even if you did, you know I would
probably suspect the methodology. (Unless, of course, you told me what I
wanted to hear ;-) )

So what does that leave us with? Theoretical arguments, I suspect. If you
can come up with a good reason why a cable should make a difference, you'd
go a long way toward motivating us non-believers to take the effort to seek
out demonstrations. Maybe even make us provide us with enough excitement
about the idea that a salesman might actually pay attention to us.

Now, if you don't think it's your job motivate anyone else, you're right.
But, the very fact that you have engaged in this discussion would seem to
indicate that you have some desire to change minds.

The only objective information related to the cable issue that I've heard
so far has to do with jitter producing some measureable results in some
situations, and the only link that I can see is that since outboard DACs
are involved, digital cable are involved. I've heard nothing objective
about the digital cables sounding different. That doesn't mean they don't
sound different, of course, but without statistical evidence or a
theoretical basis, all we are left with is testimonials. Now, maybe I've
just missed something. If so, please fill me in.
 
> If not, I won't bother wasting my time argueing with your religion.

If you want to call ranking statistical evidence and theory above the sea
of conflicting testimony a religion, then show me the chapel and I'll be
there on Sunday.

-Kerry
From: mattn@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Matt Nieberger)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 16:26:19 GMT
Subject: Re: DAT tape cut-out function (or, what are those holes in the back for ?)
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA