HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca ()
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.frp.campaign
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 22:45:18 GMT

>>As for your reference to the group being "doom-ridden" and "ill-conceived",
>>more people have sent me mail saying "yes this sounds like a good idea" than have sent me messages saying they did not like the idea.  Thank goodness, the
>>decision as to whether or not a newgroup is made is decided by a vote and
>>not by self appointed "net gods".
>
>Indeed, otherwise you would have created it already. 

True :)
>
>Now, lemme have some time to read that second proposal, and I'll see...
>No promises.  In the meanwhile, *now* do you understand why I am so 
>interested in _how_long_you_have_been_involved_with_r.g.f_?  And can
>you be so kind as to honor us with an answer?  *Not* just the 'net.'
>Anyone who has access to a machine can claim to "use the net."  All 
>Fidonet echos of newsgroups can claim to "use the net."  I'm asking
>how long _you_have_read_r.g.f.*_.  Believe me, if you establish your
>credentials, it will go a long way to helping your proposal pass.
>
I've sent you a reply in e-mail.  Anyone else who does consider the
validity of the proposal is affected by the expereience of the person
who proposes it may e-mail me and I'll give them an answer also.
From: stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley)
Subject: Re: Music Group Reorg Disagreement (was Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored)
Organization: Oregon State University, College of Oceanography
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 21:06:10 GMT

In article <MJP.92Nov9173819@prudence.hplb.hpl.hp.com> mjp@hplb.hpl.hp.com (Mike Prudence) writes:
>Tim> It was posted to rec.music.synth.  Hence, it was a CFV that somehow
>Tim> affected the readership of rec.music.synth.  Worth at least the two
>Tim> seconds it would take to briefly check over.
>
>But you are assuming that I know that.  I don't, and I've managed to
>survive nearly four years of net reading without coming up against
>this.  Nowhere and nowhen has anyone said to me that a CFV in a
>newsgroup I read, with a subject line that does not mention that
>newsgroup, has any relevance to that newsgroup at all.

Mike, do you read the entire net? Do you read rec.aviation? Do you read
misc.drugs? Do you look in every possible newsgroup to find material
relevant to synths? Do you see much material related to aviation in
rec.music.synth?

No. Material posted to rec.music.synth has something to do with
rec.music.synth. (Sometimes not, but generally it does.) Normally, it
has to do directly with sythesizers. In this case, it had to do with
the group itself. The fact that it was posted to rec.music.synth means
that it had something to do with that group.

>It could be informational.  In this case, I assumed it was.  I assumed
>that a well meaning person had crossposted this to rec.music.synth as
>the readsership of that group will also contain people for whom the
>new groups might be of interest.

So, in other words, it applied to the readers of rec.music.synth.

>The other thing I assumed, obviously wrongly, is that a renaming of
>rec.music.synth is something so unneeded, unthinkable and unlikely
>that a large noise would be made about it *in that group*.  I did not
>expect to find it buried at the end of a crosspost about creation of some
>other groups.  Hence my analogy that....

Funny how, were your assumption to be true, that of all those people
who POST to rec.music.synth that Dave Hayes counted, NOBODY started
such a "large noise" about it in that group. 

>In this case, the renaming was not made explicit in the affected
>group.  

It was quite explicit. You didn't bother to read the article that talked
about it. That is not the same as not being told.

>There has clearly been a mistake. 

And you made it by ignoring the call for votes when it was made.

Xref: sparky news.groups:21273 news.admin.policy:312
From: dhd@exnet.co.uk (Damon)
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.policy
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 11 Nov 92 23:42:11 GMT
Organization: ExNet Systems Ltd Public Access News, London, UK

In article <1992Nov10.211028.16118@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>killer@robin.cs.hut.fi (Kalle Kivimaa) writes:
>>So now you admit that you are using this discussion - which you KNEW
>>would take place if you started it - as a way to make people vote
>>your way, because they become frustrated and want to get rid of
>>the discussion.
>
>Usually people vote out of spite (which is also vote fraud IMHO) against
>the instigator. That'd be me. 

Oh, please!

I have *never* voted out of spite in a net.vote.  So why assume it is
*usually* the case?  That sounds like paranoia and conspiracy theory to
me.

Damon
-- 
Damon Hart-Davis                          Internet: dhd@exnet.co.uk, d@hd.org

Public-access UNIX (Suns), news and mail for UK#5 per month.  FIRST MONTH FREE.
[1.35] Cheap Sun eqpt.  UUCP news/mail feeds.  Tel/Fax: +44 81 755 0077.
From: hartman@ulogic.UUCP (Richard M. Hartman)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: comp.ai.genetic AND comp.ai.fuzzy
Date: 6 Nov 92 18:07:12 GMT
Organization: negligable

Maybe it's time for something like:

	comp.algorithms.fuzzy
	comp.algorithms.genetic
	comp.algorithms.classic
	comp.algorithms.misc


Fuzzy & genetic are what people have been saying would be "acceptable
under comp.ai but they really don't belong there".  Classic would
be for FAQs containing qsort, bubble sort, dda line drawing, etc (?),
possibly disussion of improvements to the "classics", maybe for
development of new algorithms using classic techniques (???)
misc for anything else (unless someone who likes the general idea
could put some better algorithm classifications up for discussion?

		-Richard Hartman
		hartman@ulogic.COM

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
"Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast!"		-"Ace" Rimmer
From: mjp@hplb.hpl.hp.com (Mike Prudence)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 17:38:19 GMT
Subject: Re: Music Group Reorg Disagreement (was Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored)
Organization: Hewlett Packard Laboratories, Bristol, UK
Newsgroups: news.groups
Followup-to: news.groups


Ugh, I hate to reply to this, but it really does make a gross
assumption about the sort of people who read USENET groups.

>>>>> "Tim" == twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce) writes:

Tim> It was posted to rec.music.synth.  Hence, it was a CFV that somehow
Tim> affected the readership of rec.music.synth.  Worth at least the two
Tim> seconds it would take to briefly check over.

But you are assuming that I know that.  I don't, and I've managed to
survive nearly four years of net reading without coming up against
this.  Nowhere and nowhen has anyone said to me that a CFV in a
newsgroup I read, with a subject line that does not mention that
newsgroup, has any relevance to that newsgroup at all.

It could be informational.  In this case, I assumed it was.  I assumed
that a well meaning person had crossposted this to rec.music.synth as
the readsership of that group will also contain people for whom the
new groups might be of interest.

The other thing I assumed, obviously wrongly, is that a renaming of
rec.music.synth is something so unneeded, unthinkable and unlikely
that a large noise would be made about it *in that group*.  I did not
expect to find it buried at the end of a crosspost about creation of some
other groups.  Hence my analogy that....

>If my car is broken, I fix it.  If it isn't, I leave well alone.

Tim> But if you hear a weird-sounding rattle under the hood, you stop at
Tim> the next gas station to check it out.

But that's assuming that, in my mind, a weird sounding rattle equates
to trouble with the engine. A CFV crossposted to a newsgroup I read,
that doesn't mention that newsgroup in the title, cannot be equated to
a rattle in the engine compartment.  It's more like hearing a funny
whining noise when I pass another vehicle.  If I don't have time to
stop and check it out, and my car is still running, I have to assume
it was the other vehicle.

I don't think people like me should be called 'apathetic' or 'lazy'
because we can't find time to keep abreast of everything that goes on
over the net.

In this case, the renaming was not made explicit in the affected
group.  To my simplistic mind, this alone should be enough for a group
of good intentioned individuals, who desire to make such a renaming
decision based on the wishes of as many people as possible, take
another vote.  Whether it is allowed by the guidelines or not.  There
has clearly been a mistake.  Common sense says we should at least try
and make sure the decision previously voted on is the right one.

Is that so difficult ?

Cheers,

Mike

mjp@hplb.hpl.hp.com                   "Only those who attempt the absurd will 
                                                     achieve the impossible."
From: randall-joshua@yale.edu (Joshua Randall)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: r.g.f.campaign + scenarios
Date: 12 Nov 92 01:24:26 GMT
Organization: Yale University Science & Engineering UNIX(tm), New Haven, CT 06520-2158
NNTP-Posting-Host: minerva.cis.yale.edu

In article <BxKqE0.9LJ@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> cbnorman@cayley.uwaterloo.ca () writes:
>In article <1dnq0dINNp90@charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu> tdunn@ecst.csuchico.edu (Tim Dunn) writes:
>>Mr. Uy was intending to mean (and what I believe most of
>>the remainder of the readership of this group have no
>>disabilities understanding) is that to have ongoing role-
>>play on the newsgroups would be an unneccessary waste of
>>overhead.
>
>What do you define as "ongoing roleplaying"? If you're talking
>about players posting moves and conversations publicly to eachother,
>I agree with you, and they're not allowed to do that.  If not, what
>*are* you talking about?

Geeze, Bruce (aha, I know his name now!), you didn't learn anything
from your rhetoric lesson, did you?  We are not arguing over the
definition of "ongoing roleplaying".  We all know what it is, and we
all know that it doesn't belong on UseNet.  You slyly agree with your
attacker, undermining his attack.

>>of this simple fact.  InterNet is expensive.  Postings of
>>interest to only one or two or a handful of people are 
>>better regulated to email.  
>
>Let's try a simple exercise in logic here.
>   If few people are interested in .campaign then few people will vote
>fot it.
>   If few people vote for it, it will not be created.
>   If many people are interested in .campaign, then many people will vote
>for it.
>   If many people do vote for it, then it will be created.

Hah!  Your logic makes me laugh.  The statement was "InterNet is
expensive."  Your answer is ".campaing will attract a lot of
interest".  You did not address the statemate; rather, you made one of
your own which is unrelated.

>Therefor, it can not be that .campaign will be created and few people are
>interested in it.  So, what's your problem?

My problem (note that I choose to answer a rhetoric question here) is
that I believe that you, Bruce Norman, will "fix" the voting process
by getting all you FidoNet buddies to vote yes.  The proposed group is
REDUNDANT and WITHOUT MERIT.  It does not even deserve to come to
vote.

Nonetheless, you, Bruce Norman, will RAM IT DOWN OUR THROATS.  This
will cost money.  It will cost *me*, Joshua Randall, money.  It will
cost every student at Yale University money.

Did you know that Yale is having budget problems?  Did you know we
have had to cut several departments because of LACK OF MONEY?  Now
you, Bruce Norman, want to cost us more money.

Thank you very much, Bruce.

-- 
Joshua E. Randall                       randall@minerva.cis.yale.edu
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 20:20:50 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov:
>WHY is it that only those in news.groups concerned enough to vote can
>be able to affect those who try to stay away from news.groups?

I'm sorry, Dave, but I'm afraid you can't assume that.

All votes are announced in news.announce.newgroups, a relatively
low-volume group for those who don't want to read news.groups.

You lose this round.
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
   "I am truly as big a genius as all other Rush fans." -- Bruce Bufalini
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Intentional ignorance of newsgroup creation (was Re: *BAD*...)
Date: 12 Nov 92 00:12:10 GMT
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft

In article <2B000760.51BA@tct.com> chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
> According to gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen):
> >In article <1992Nov9.175405.13641@daimi.aau.dk> rorschak@daimi.aau.dk  
> >(Jesper Lauridsen) writes:
> >> ... it's simply a question of being interested or not.
> >Interest isn't the only requirement.
> 
> Yes, it is.  Or can you show other requirements?

1. Access to the right people that can answer your questions correctly

2. Knowing what questions to ask

3. A lot of spare time to read a lot of articles that look like they might  
not interest you (but you never know)

3. An eagle eye

4. Searching out the meaning of undefined acronyms you may or may not be  
interested in (remember that RFD and CFV aren't the only two acronyms one  
runs across - how many are important? How would someone even know what or  
who to ask?)

5. Being lucky enough to find out what RFD and CFV mean BEFORE an  
important issue blows you by

6. A desire to read articles about any group that has an interest of yours  
as a part of its name 

7. A desire and ability to pay for the connect time to obtain groups other  
than your area of interest (not everyone gets a general newsfeed)

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------
From: mark@ve6mgs.ampr.org (Mark G. Salyzyn)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.radio.info changes (again)
Summary: addition of rec.radio.broadcasting and rec.radio.noncomm
Date: 6 Nov 92 05:23:49 GMT
Organization: Amateur Packet Radio E-mail Gateway  VE6MGS

mark@ve6mgs.ampr.org (Mark Salyzyn) sez:
>-------- Recommended description -------
>Newsgroup:
>	rec.radio.info (moderated)
>
>/usr/lib/news/newsgroups entry:
>	rec.radio.info	Informational postings related to radio.
>
>Charter:
>	To provide high quality, informational postings about radio.
>	This group will take cross-postings, or moderated postings from the
remove>	regular discussions streams, such as rec.radio.amateur.misc, to
add>	regular discussion streams to
remove>	alieviate the traffic in these discussion groups by allowing
add>	alieviate the traffic, over expensive links, in these groups by allowing
>	the news transfer mechanism to drop articles cross posted to
remove>	rec.radio.info. Also by
add>	rec.radio.info. Postings in the entire rec.radio.* heirarchy that
add>	the moderators deam as informational, however, are likely candidates
add>	for cross posting or re-posting. Also by
>	placing the informational postings in this group, make it easier
>	for many to find radio related information.
>
>	By maintaining a high level of quality in the postings, it is
>	hoped that these postings may end up, at least more conveniently,
add>	in various archive sites, or possibly
remove>	over the Amateur Radio Packet BBS network as well through the
remove>	various gateways.
add>	over the Amateur Radio Packet BBS network as well.
>
>	By using a self-moderator scheme, the hopes are that many of the
>	postings will maintain timeliness, and good propagation through
>	the computer networks.

Ok, anyone want to buy a bridge? Can I make any more changes?
Ciao, 73 de VE6MGS/Mark -sk-
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: mmurali@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg (Magical_Flute)
Subject: Re: RFD: soc.culture.singaporean
Organization: Dwaraka  
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 09:12:52 GMT


I also suggest including a FAQ_SINGAPORE to be kept and
maintained by the moderator of this group so that important
information about our great homeland can be put in there
as well! And get this FAQ posted regularly in the group
as well as cross-posted in s.c.asean.



-- 
=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o=o= 
 Murali Damodaran, Sch. of MPE    <> Internet: mmurali@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg     
 Nanyang Technological University <> Bitnet  : mdamodaran@ntuvax           
 Nanyang Avenue, SINGAPORE 2263   <> Phone : 65-799-5599  Fax: 65-791-1859
From: hartman@ulogic.UUCP (Richard M. Hartman)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.frp.campaign
Date: 5 Nov 92 18:52:37 GMT
Organization: negligable

In article <Bx5I8x.9M3@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> cbnorman@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu writes:
>                         Justification for Uniqueness
>
>    1. rec.games.frp.archives
>
>    An ongoing campaign can not be classified as an 'archive' in any sense.  
>Once a campaign is concluded, but not before, its reposting in 
>rec.games.frp.archive is justified.  In addition, the contents of the FAQ as 
>outlined above, GM Move updates, high-quality Player responses to moves, and 
>discussion of campaigns, are totally unsuitable for posting in .archives, but 
>will be necessary for the running of high quality, enjoyable for all, 
>electronic campaigns. 

translation: there is a place where we can post our campaigns, but we are
impatient and want them going out piecemeal instead of as one finished 
product.


>    2. Rec.games.frp.campaign should not be in a writing newsgroup because...

translation: (no translation required)

>    The GM move postings in .campaign, though similar in quality and content 
>to science fiction/fantasy writings, are not standalone stories until the 
>termination of the campaign.  Since the direction the story will take will be 

(Hey!  He get's it!  It's NOT COMPLETE!  so:
	a: why bother posting until it IS done?
	b: why do we need a new place for it since a place 
	   already exists?
)


=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
And when you stop and think about it	|
(you won't believe it's true)		|	-Richard Hartman	
That all the love you've been giving	|	hartman@uLogic.COM
has all been meant for you.		|
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: Music Group Reorg Disagreement (was Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored)
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 19:43:15 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to mjp@hplb.hpl.hp.com (Mike Prudence):
>Not having an interest in anything to do with the 'news' software, I
>have never even glanced at the groups 'news.*'.  Nowhere, in any of
>the groups I read, in four years, have I seen anything telling me to
>'read news.groups' ...

Then whoever set you up for Usenet access did you a disservice by
failing to educate you... which says nothing about the validity of
the current process.

>To say everything is procedurally correct and hence "that's that"
>seems to ignore the idea of fairness.

Not so.  It all depends on whether you believe that those who didn't
read n.a.newgroups should be held responsible for their (in)action.

>To simply have another vote, with the added carrot of getting a
>larger, and hence more representative population voting seems only
>sensible.

But what if some complainers see _that_ vote as skewed?  Where will it
end?  No.  Barring cheats, a vote is a vote, and that's that.

>I do not have the luxury of free time spent following every
>turn and twist of USENET guideline.

But all you need have done is read n.a.newgroups.  That's all.

>If anyone has any followups directly to this, please e-mail.

Not a chance.  Post publically, expect public replies.
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
                 just another elitist Usenet administrator
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: arthurc@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu (Arthur Chandler)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.unicycles
Organization: California State University, Sacramento
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 22:52:07 GMT

  I go for the straightforward rec.unicycles.  I think the name would
cause no confusion.  The idea, too, is great: a place to exchange info
particular to unicycling (which is a world away from bicycling info).
  Can't wait to get going: I need some serious, immediate help for
mastering (ha!) the impossible wheel (also called the BC wheel).
 
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: mike@jammin.nosc.mil (mike pawka)
Subject: Re: CFV: rec.music.reggae
Organization: NRaD
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 15:35:56 GMT

In article <=2+qqdh@lynx.unm.edu>, lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble) writes:
|> rick@crick.ssctr.bcm.tmc.edu (Richard H. Miller) writes:
|> 
|> > 1) Was there a RFD for this proposed news group.
|> 
|> No.  Mike Pawka has been posting this CFV to every rec.music group in the
|> subhierarchy for several days now.  A number of people have asked him to 
|> read the newsgroup creation guidelines, but if he's doing it, he's only
|> doing it one paragraph at a time.  (At this rate, I estimate he'll finally
|> figure out how to post a valid CFD and get things officially rolling
|> sometime early next Summer.)
|> 

	Wanna bet on the RFD? 

							Mike
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.policy
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 21:10:28 GMT

killer@robin.cs.hut.fi (Kalle Kivimaa) writes:
>So now you admit that you are using this discussion - which you KNEW
>would take place if you started it - as a way to make people vote
>your way, because they become frustrated and want to get rid of
>the discussion.

Usually people vote out of spite (which is also vote fraud IMHO) against
the instigator. That'd be me. 

-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

   History is not usually what has happened.
            History is what some people have thought to be significant.
Xref: sparky news.groups:20466 rec.music.synth:17850
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Newsgroups: news.groups,rec.music.synth
Subject: Re: *BAD* music group reorg will not be honored
Date: 6 Nov 92 19:16:43 GMT
Article-I.D.: jato.1992Nov6.191643.23221
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA

lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble) writes:
>The fact that a CFV appears in a newsgroup in the first place means that
>the CFV will affect that newsgroup. 

Not necessarily. As was said earlier (thanks Ken):

    "A request for discussion on creation of a new newsgroup should be posted
    to news.announce.newgroups, and also to any other groups or mailing lists
    at all related to the proposed topic if desired.  [... Then] a call for
       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    votes may be posted to news.announce.newgroups and any other groups or
    mailing lists that the original request for discussion might have been
    posted to."

"Related" does not imply "affect". 

-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

Show me a person who really knows what 'good' is, and I will show you that 
the person almost never uses the word.