From: c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: But Solvieg,
Date: 2 Jan 93 13:06:46 GMT
Organization: The Nibelungenlied Incorporated

In article <C06CCz.997@agora.rain.com> trifid@agora.rain.com (Roadster Racewerks) writes:
>
>
>It all depends upon what topic of heraldry the SCA is discussing. If it deals
>entirely with SCA rules of blazon, and the inevitable lawyering that causes,
>it does not belong here. If it deals with more general topics, such as whether
>color-on-color was used more frequently than our college of arms currently
>believes, it is probably useful to ask people outside the SCA for an opinion.

This newsgroup should not be a SCA-oriented channel, but it should be an
open forum for all kinds of "official" and inofficial heraldry in our world.

>It might also be useful to discuss Tadhg's ideal of "south of the Trent, west
>of the Rhine and north of.... (I forget, somewhere in southern France) and
>between 1100 and 1400" as the true essence of "pure" heraldic style, here.

I have come into contact with the SCA only quite lately (though I have been
interested in the history and heraldry for years). Since most of the SCA
personae seem to be of Celtic origin (and they had no heraldry at all), why
wonder with the heraldic problems at all ? 

There are A HELL OF A LOT heraldry in the world apart from the Anglo-French
style, and they are damn well as period as the "official" SCA heraldry. For
example, Tadgh is going to dismiss the whole world of The Holy Roman Empire
and German heraldry, as well as Italian, Polish, Balkan, Iberian and
Nordic heraldry. They are of different style than the Anglo-French heraldry,
often poorer by standards, but they are certainly period and of the style
of the according countrey and cultural sphere. Or is the SCA limited only
for 300-1000 AD Celtic personae who use 1100-1400 AD Anglo-French heraldry ?
Anachronism, certainly. I have a Castilian persona and I have applied him
a Castilian style coat of arms. Yes, I admit that there is one conflict
with the tinctures' law: bordure of color next to another color, but I have
two excuses I am going to use if the apply is repulsed: 1) bordure is a
typical Castilian feature and 2) the tinctures' rule does not generally apply
on bordures or other surmounted ordinaries, even in the Anglo-French heraldry.

A generic Hungarian coat of arms would be:

Azure, a severed Turk's head proper blood dripping Gules impaled with a 
sword palewise Argent, on the base a triple mountain Vert

This coat of arms would never make it in the SCA armory, but it still is
in Hungarian style and "good" in the Hungarian standard, though I myself
do not find it particularly impressive (it breaks at least four heraldic
rules). More important, the Hungarian-Turkish wars _are_ period, and there-
fore this "generic" Hungarian coat-of-arms _should_ be qualified. Or how
about the Balkan and/or Polish "housemark" armory ?

>That might generate some interesting discussion from non-SCA students of
>history.

Certainly. What are the blazons of the arms of the newborn Balkan countries ?
The Baltic arms are, I'd think:

Estonia: Or, seme de hearts Or, three leopards Azure
Latvia: Parti per fess; chief Azure, a rising sun Or: base parti per pale
        dexter Argent, lion rampant sinister Gules, sinister Gules, a griffin
        rampant Argent
Lithuania: Gules, a vytis (riding armored knight on a black horse) proper,
           on a shield Azure a double cross Argent




--++ Tuomas Viljanen                     ++ For a battle like Crecy, you do ++
  ++ Lahderanta 20 A 19                  ++ not need a military genius like ++
  ++ SF-02720 Espoo FINLAND              ++ Edward III. All you need is an  ++
  ++ 358-0-592175 or c34657b@saha.hut.fi ++ idiot like Duke of Alencon.     ++