HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: peace!
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 09:35:54 GMT

martini@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (ok) writes:
: (sigh) while reading an article on here about PEACE and pagan communities, etc,
: i hit "k" and managed to kill a buncha stuff in the last 20 posts or so..
: 
: has anyone a clue as to how to read such killed beasts?  my news system should
: save them, but i've managed to kill them.. help!

Talk to your system administrator. You should have a kill file somewhere. If
you can edit that file, you can remove the part that has killed the string
you want to read.

Bill
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: tedr@athena.cs.uga.edu (Ted Kalivoda)
Subject: Re: /What is a Pagan?  
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 17:57:36 GMT

In article <fWyWP1C@quack.sac.ca.us> pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey) writes:
>In article <1992Dec12.222511.14395@athena.cs.uga.edu> 
>tedr@athena.cs.uga.edu (Ted Kalivoda) writes:

>>Let's see, there are two defninitions of pagan:  1) not a Jew, Christian, or
>>Muslim, and 2) those who worship other gods and not the One true God.  
>>In (2) we are talking about the individuals who are dedicated to a deity, a
>>bit more so than having a patron saint, so to speak.  Today, these pagans,
>>or some say "neo-pagans", believe in these deities.  Now, if they wish to
>>cancel all of their specific beliefs out with some vague Taoist notion of
>>the "Undifferentiated" then so be it, although I am inclined to think most
>>neo-pagans really want to retain their personal existence and meet their
>>deity.    
>
>All right, it appears that you have a firm, exclusive definition of your
>category two pagan, but what about your category one: "1) not a Jew, Christian,
>or Muslim?" Does this exclude monism and "vague Taoist notion(s) of the
>'Undifferentiated'," or are these category one people not "real" pagans?

I suppose if one accepts only def (1), which I think some pagans do, then it
is quite exclusionary.  But I never said i only accepted (1).  What general
term would you use to describe those in (2)?
From: ailsa@ailanthus.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Sex vs. Gender -- Re: Witches on Gender Relations
Date: 16 Dec 92 14:02:18 GMT
Reply-To: ailsa@ailanthus.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Organization: Ailanthus Project

wolfe@wolves.Durham.NC.US (G. Wolfe Woodbury) writes:

> However, none of the "traditional roles" really pay much attention to
> the homosexualities and the bisexualities that are the reality of huma
> experience.  (I am talking about the "managed" traditions that have be
> filtered through the patriarchial, heterosexist culture.  The
> "re-discovered" images of modern neo-pagan practice are IMO, a "good
> thing" for all the pagan folks.)
>
or even the vagaries of human expression, which isn't binary in the
least...

> Some writers have ascribed "seven genders" that correspond to the 7
> classical astrological planets - mercurial, venus, mars, jupiter,
> saturn, uranian, neptunian.  (cf. C.S.Lewis "Space Trilogy")  However,
> found that there I could model genders on the basis of "10 questions"
> and characterize folks on the basis of their answers.  I consider the
> 10 questions to be the "poles" of the scale, and the categories of the
> answers to be the membership of each person in that "pole's" gender.
> I've not done any math modeling of this yet, and I keep revising the
> questions and answers to see if I can reduce the poles or increase the
> distinct categories.
>
i want to SEE this!!!

> I'll try to get the questions and categories laid out and written down
> sometime after the start of the new year.

i'll be lookign forward to it.  i hope everyone will be a sport and
post their answers to them...  B)

                                             -ailsa

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
                    ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com
                                                        ________
I miss the rains down in Africa.                Silence \      / Action
Gotta take some time to do the things we           =     \    /    =
  never have...                                  Death    \  /    Life
                                                           \/
From: lazarus@matt.ksu.ksu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Darwin Fish (address request)
Date: 14 Dec 1992 01:08:26 -0600
Organization: Kansas State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: matt.ksu.ksu.edu

I know that this thread ended some time ago, but I had told a friend
about the "chrome" fish with the feet and "DARWIN" placed inside, and
he loved the idea!  Well, I never took down the address when it was
first posted, so if the poster of that address would please e-mail it
to me, I'd be quite grateful!  Thanks!

Bart -Laz- Smith
The 'Cat!
From: SL500000@brownvm.brown.edu (Robert Mathiesen)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Social inhibitions to environmental change
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 12:52:23 EST
Organization: Brown University - Providence, Rhode Island  USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: brownvm.brown.edu
News-Software: BNN via BNN_POST v1.0 beta

I too have read Jim Nyce's dissertation, Ceci, and think *very* highly of
it.  I heard that he recently moved to Sweded to take up an academic post
there.  Since you also are in Sweded, could you find out whether this is
so, and let me know his address?  Many thanks in advance.

I'm posting this publically, rather than sending a private note to Ceci,
to alert others to this excellent study about a still-living folk tradi-
tion of magic.  The author is quite circumspect about the actual techni-
ques used in this tradition, and the local gossip here at Brown (where he
wrote the dissertation) is that the author's own ancestors included experts
in the tradition, and that the still-living ones (at least) would have been
greatly angered at any full publication of its techniques.  This tradition's
general theory of magic, however, is in the dissertation for anyone to read,
although it is somewhat camoflauged by the mass of other detail.

Ref: James Martin NYCE.  _Convention, Power and the Self in German Mennonite
Magic._  PhD dissertation, Brown University, May, 1987.  xiv, 180 pp.

Robert Mathiesen, Brown University, SL500000@BROWNVM
From: alizard@pil
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: A Darkover type circle
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 92 02:48:26 PST

Re: Re: A Darkover type circle
 
> From: markbr%radian@natinst.com (markbr)
> Newsgroups: alt.pagan
> Subject: Re: A Darkover type circle
> Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 18:57:42 GMT
> The only problem is *detecting* psi energy. It doesn't seem to be electro-
> magnetic; on the other hand, as Isaac Bonewitz pointed out in his dis-
> sertation _Real Magic_, (quoting Russian studies) it *does* seem to
> follow information theory & stuff like normal signal-to-noise-per-distance.
> mark

I was not that satisfied with the Kogan results quoted in Real Magic,
the theoretical bandwidth Kogan came out with didn't match some observed
information transfer rates.
blessings
                                                 A.Lizard
====== 93 ====== sum saurus, sum saurus, sum maximus saurus! ====== 93 ======
 (slogan contributed by Jessica Mc Geary)  (translated by Murray Altheim)
Mail to me should be sent to:       |  There are no fnords in this sig file.
alizard%tweekco%boo@PacBell.COM     |  autoreply to address I posted this
     ^^^ preferred site ^^^         |  from only if you want to wait a
PacBell.COM!boo!tweekco!alizard     |  solstice or two for my answer.
alizard@seer.mystic.com             |              Kallisti!
^^^use ONLY if all else fails       |  PGP2.0 public key available on request

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: ailsa@ailanthus.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Tree Prayin' Fey Talkin' Foo'
Keywords: Re: Tree Prayin' Fey Talkin' Foo'
Date: 16 Dec 92 14:21:20 GMT
Reply-To: ailsa@ailanthus.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Organization: Ailanthus Project

tucker@maestro.mitre.org (William Tucker) writes:

> Has anyone reading this group had any experience like this in any urba
> area?  How about outside of the square states?  Anywhere on the east c
> Anything at all?  Or are the Boston area Fey a bunch of paranoid yuppi
> with pickles up their rears like most of the human natives?
>
>
well, this is outside of the city, but go to Purgatory Chasm (west of
boston, past westborough).  walk through there while it is quiet.
listen.  they are there, they are old, and they don;t care about you at
all.  you and i are nothign but mayflies, and they don;t even notice us
as we flash through.  it's a very peaceful, holy, awesome (in the true
sense of the word) place.  i plan to spend the night of ONE of the
solar holidays there...  if not the summer solstice, then the autumnal
equinox...

there is this one spot there, i won't say whihc one, cos it will most
likely be different for everyone, which is for me the center of the
world.

                                             -ailsa

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
                    ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com
                                                        ________
I miss the rains down in Africa.                Silence \      / Action
Gotta take some time to do the things we           =     \    /    =
  never have...                                  Death    \  /    Life
                                                           \/
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: jnewman@hamp.hampshire.edu
Subject: Re: Space: the path out of the crib
Organization: Hampshire College
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 21:24:16 GMT

Corun wrote:

>Let's face it, we're not going to have viable industry in space in our
>lifetime, but if we throw out the idea altogether, we're not going to have
>a viable place to die in, and our children can kiss it goodbye.

  I don't think I've ever read a post as rational and eloquent as yours, Corun. 
I often find myself arguing the same things you do in this post: that idealism
is a step toward actuality and that it has to work in concert with realism.  

  Space travel is a neccessary step.  It is unhealthy for a child to remain in
the crib after he has outgrown it.  So must we leave, but we need a change in
attitude before we do that.  I think it's safe to say that the dead president
collectors who seem to think they run this place we call our home don't want
that change, and so, it is left up to the idealists to create our way out.  It
currently costs about as much as a good car to raise a sattelite (it's
true-read the third most recent issue of Mondo 2000).  Soon we will be able to
leave the crib at will.  No doubt the bald white hetero males (Yes, I'm all but
the bald part, but you get the idea) will try to impose rules on us, but dreams
are an irresistable force.

				Wow.  Maybe I am just a starry-eyed kid...
					-Grendel 2.0

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: hart0037@student.tc.umn.edu ()
Subject: Re: Social inhibitions to environmental change
Organization: University of Minnesota
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 02:12:47 GMT

In article <1992Dec12.235643.6171@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>
radzy@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (T. O. Radzykewycz) writes: 

  <snip>
>We can step back a little and say "Gosh, that chicken sh*t is
>good fertilizer.  Maybe I should spend a couple bucks and get
>some of it to spread in my garden."  But we can't admit that
>human wastes would be great fertilizer.
>
>Is there a non-social reason for this?  Disease doesn't explain
>it, since chickens and cattle have diseases communicable to
>humans.  We have things like detergent in our sewage, but 
>they shouldn't hurt the farmland or the farm workers.  Why
>don't we do it?
>
>Does *anyone* know of *any* city that does a single-stage
>processing on their sewage and then sells the resulting sludge
>to local farmers?  Or even double-stage processing?
>
>Fertile Blessings!
>
>		-- radzy
>
  
     Columbus, Ohio had a program that was in existence in the mid 80's
where they took sewage and used it to produce very fertile soil.  It took a
lot of processing and they were trying to market it.  I think they called
it CompTill.  I don't know if the program still exists, or how successful
it is/was.  
      I hope I'm wrong, but I think they were having a hard time
making it an economically feasible program...probably b/c of the amount of
processing involved to get rid of any pathogens and also b/c of public
relations in getting people to *buy* the product.  It's kind of like how
you can gross out a lot of people who eat meat by telling them they're
consuming muscle tissue.  If you mention to some people what fertilizer
is,  it sets of all kinds of reactions!

         --Amy
From: ksm@abb-sc.abb-sc.com (Ashley)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: pagan origin of Christmas customs?
Date: 17 Dec 92 17:25:46 GMT
Organization: Kaos Laboratories


In article <1992Dec16.090619.23394@wixer.cactus.org>, thorfinn@wixer.cactus.org (Thorfinn Einarsson) writes...
>Yule-Tide Greetings to All!
> 
>>martini@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (ok)
>>>In article <Bz3vzM.DCv@apollo.hp.com> stave@apollo.hp.com writes:
>>>..  Also what, if any, other customs that are practiced
>>>have their origins in pagan worship?
>>
(clip)
>The Yule Tree is known to some as the "christmas tree".
>The Germanic heathen families or groups would find a tree in the forest,
>decorate it, perform a ritual, leave some food for the elves, and go home.
>The christian clergy forbade such heathen practices. So, the Germanic
>pagans cut down the tree, brought it inside, and continued the practice.
>The Yule Tree is Germanic in origin.
(clip)
> 
>=-= Thorfinn Einarsson =-=-=-=-=-= ALU =-=-=-=-=-= O'dhinn er alfadhir! =-=
>"En stundum vakti hann upp daudha menn o'r io"rdhu edha settisk undir hanga;
>fyrir thvi' var hann kalladhr draugadro'ttinn edha hangadro'ttinn."
>=-= ALU =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Ynglinga saga ch. 7 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ALU =-=

	I had heard this story a bit differently, may be true may be not, but 
it rings of truth to me, so take it as you will.

	The practice of decorating a tree was varied. Some families had a 
specific tree that they decorated, some villages got together at a specific 
tree, practice varied from place to place. 

	The tree was an evergreen because that represented the promise of the 
return of spring. Even in the winter ice, when there was little food and people 
died, the evergreen represented the promise that spring would come again. The 
tree was outside and alive, it was not cut and brought indoors as one would not 
want to kill the promise of spring.

	Around 1100 (?), a couple of German friars came up with a strategy to 
get people to abondon this pagan practice. The friars convinced the general 
populace that it made more sense to cut down the tree and bring it inside where 
it was warm. And what better place to put it, but the church, so nice and warm, 
with such tall ceilings, in the center of the village.....

	This move not only got the people into the church, helping the Xtains 
to advance their god of self-denial and guilt to the people, it also killed 
the tree thus destroying it's signifigance and insuted the hardline pagans.

	As I said, may be true, may be not, may just be a local legend, but I 
accept it. My tree is in the forest, quite alive and miles from any church 
or xtian with a hacksaw. I hang apples on it as gifts for whatever creatures 
come to my tree. I suspect they feed more deer than elves though.....


			Walk in light....

				- Ashley
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ag055@yfn.ysu.edu (Ward Chanley)
Subject: Re: Meaning of pentagram, pentacle for You
Organization: Youngstown State University/Youngstown Free-Net
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 02:57:32 GMT


It is also common to use the proper pentagram to indicate White
magic and the inverted pentagram to indicate Black magic. Hence,
the popularity of the inverted pentagram by self-proclaimed
"Satanists" as well as those who actually do follow the darker
paths.
----

Some alternative meanings for the in-
verted pentagram: in "The Complete Book
Of Witchcraft", Ray Buckland calls the
inverted pentagram a symbol of Spirit
manifest in matter (i.e. Pantheism or
Starhawk's Immanent Goddess), and in
"The Goddess Celebrates", Shekinah 
Mountainwater uses an inverted 
pentagram (this one with the
earth-point down, rather than the 
spirit/akasha/ether-point) as a ground-
ing tool.

Lucina Bless,
Ward

-- 
I thank the Goddess for my life,
I thank the Goddess for my loves,
I thank the Goddess for continued blessings.
     -- Z Budapest
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: jnewman@hamp.hampshire.edu
Subject: Re: Truth???/Psychiatrists and homosexuality.
Organization: Hampshire College
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 00:19:21 GMT

In article <1992Dec9.194922.9024@athena.cs.uga.edu>, tedr@athena.cs.uga.edu (Ted Kalivoda) writes:
> In article <1992Dec7.005114.14512@wam.umd.edu> rsrodger@wam.umd.edu (Yamanari) writes:
>>In article <1992Dec6.234615.9660@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> mritchie@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Michael S Ritchie) writes:
>>>is it nature or nurture?  A "truth" about homosexuality *used to
>>>be* that it was an illness, but very few psychiatrists would
>>>espouse that particular "truth" these days.  Truth is a construct
>>
>>
>>	I'd propose that this is incorrect.  The removal of homosexuality
>>	from the roster is accepted by most people to have been purely
>>	political.  In fact, an article in the paper sometime last
>>	week pointed this fact out, along with the interestingtidbit
>>	that some 70%+ still considered it to be rooted in mental illness.
>>
> Intersesting, for what it's worth, I just read this last night in a recently
> published book by Steven Goldberg, "When Wish Replaces Thought".  2/3 of the
> APA said they thought homosexuality was a disorder AFTER the vote which
> declared homosexuality normal.
> 
> T. Kalivoda
> UGA

  Well, who cares?  It's not our business as heterosexuals, and it certainly
doesn't harm anyone.  So how is that an illness?  Perhaps it is an "imbalance"
or some sort of disorder ***relative to what is considered normal society***
but if a disorder is widespread enough, what makes it a disorder?

					Die, white trash!
					(not you.  This is a random statement.)
					-Grendel2.0
From: kuvamp@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: RE: PAGAN & NOMENCLATURE
Date: 19 Dec 92 16:50:27 CST
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

Ok I've read with a closed mouth for long enough.


	To Matt Ivaliotes, et al:  If you don't like the word "PAGAN", then
don't use it.  Other people will continue to use it, much to your chagrin.
Oh Well.  Get a Life, Shut up and stop wasting valuable time and bandwidth with
this inane crap.

	To the idiot who suggested the use of "warlock" or "necromancer" to be
the "gender-correct" form of "witch" for males:  Go back to playing your 156th
level Half-Elven magic User with the +25 wand o' firey death, and come back
when you get a clue.

					A "warlock" is a Xian term for traitor.
				A "necromancer" is a dabbler in dead things.

				I am a Witch.  I am a Pagan.
			Someone else is whatever they wish to be.

						Happy and Blessed Yule,
							-------Gareth.

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: L629159@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM
Subject: Re: Nomenclature...i am confused
Organization: Lockheed Missiles & Space Company, Inc.
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 18:41:29 GMT

From: kre@po.CWRU.edu (Keith R.W. Elflein)

I have just recently begun to read this bb because i am interested in
getting to know more about pagan beliefs and practices. I still am new at
this, and am trying to make a decision as to where my beliefs are, but i
have always been drawn to pagan beliefs and the like ever since i was a
child. But i have noticed that in many articles some of the people who
state that they are pagan also call themselves "witches." Now, a witch is
someone who has sold her soul to evil, last time i checked. I thought that
pagans believed in worshiping the life-force that flows through nature.
That, to me, is certainly not evil, but the life-force which flows from the
higher power. I need someone to clear this up for me please. Thankyou,

           Keith

  Keith,

  You've been paying too much attention to what Christians have to
say on the subject.  If you believe in a single good deity, anything
that clashes with your position must be evil.  Why should someone be
evil?  For money is a plausible answer, or power or ...  Thence
derives the notion of the bargin with the devil, or with Evil.  Just
remember, those that hold this view hold others even more absurd.

Al Moore
From: boylan@sltg04.ljo.dec.com (Steve Boylan)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Social inhibitions to environmental change
Date: 17 Dec 92 21:43:39 GMT
Reply-To: boylan@ljohub.enet.dec.com (Steve Boylan)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


In article <1992Dec12.235643.6171@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>,
radzy@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (T. O. Radzykewycz) writes:

> I've always wondered about this.  Here we are, as a society,
> where we package cow manure, chicken manure, and several other
> kinds of animal sh*t and sell it to farmers for fertilizer.
> 
> But on the whole, what's happening for our agriculture is that
> we pump fertilizer out of the oil-pumps, process it into
> fertilizer, grow crops with it, send those crops to the cities,
> and then pump the human generated fertilizer out into the
> ocean.  What a grand cycle!
> 
> It seems to me that the reasons are purely social inhibitions.
> We can step back a little and say "Gosh, that chicken sh*t is
> good fertilizer.  Maybe I should spend a couple bucks and get
> some of it to spread in my garden."  But we can't admit that
> human wastes would be great fertilizer.
> 
> Is there a non-social reason for this?  Disease doesn't explain
> it, since chickens and cattle have diseases communicable to
> humans.  We have things like detergent in our sewage, but 
> they shouldn't hurt the farmland or the farm workers.  Why
> don't we do it?

Yup, there's a non-social reason - by the time it comes out
of the sewage system, the stuff's pretty toxic.

> Does *anyone* know of *any* city that does a single-stage
> processing on their sewage and then sells the resulting sludge
> to local farmers?  Or even double-stage processing?

They investigated that back in the '60s and '70s - and it turns
out that the product is deadly.  The problem is that current
sewage systems mix EVERYTHING together - human wastes, detergents
(which DO harm the soil and the water), and industrial wastes.
The output of sewage plants (well, the input as well!) contains
dangerously high levels toxins;  the biggest problem is
heavy metals (cadmium comes to mind as one component).

Now, if we could get the human wastes separated from the industrial
wastes . . .

It used to be that the pit under the outhouse was a prized source
of fertilizer in some locales.  And I remember reading as a teen
about the Clivus Mulstrum (spelling?) composting toilet, where you
get compost out the far end.

	Anybody want to re-plumb their house to separate the
	compostable wastes from the non-compostables?

				- - Steve

				boylan@ljohub.enet.dec.com
From: txdv1@isuvax.iastate.edu (Angela KAY Rolling)
Subject: yuletide?
Reply-To: txdv1@isuvax.iastate.edu
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 17:19:27 GMT

Well, to decrees complexity, I celebreate yule with my famly celebrating
cristmas. As they are basicly the same thing from difrint vew ponts I see
no reason to complecate things. This year my mother put up my 4' fake as
she didn't want to put up her 8' fake (shes alergic to evergreens enufe
that she doesnt tempt the alergy as she does with lilacs) as she has puppies
in the house (little pure breed/papered basits that have been pre-bought by
a kenal (she hated having to remove the dew claws)) To avode damage it was 
put on a table (I have some of the more expensive type decorations)

Elf-Kin