From: zstewart@nyx.cs.du.edu (Zhahai Stewart)
Newsgroups: co.general
Subject: Re: Amendment 2
Date: 9 Nov 92 07:00:40 GMT
Distribution: co
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In article <1992Nov8.204200.7492@mercury.cair.du.edu> elesatz@diana.cair.du.edu (Eric LeSatz) writes:
>Wrong! Not bigotry, but they were afraid of being stereotyped by
>people who believe that homosexuals should have special rights.

Eric, I believe you may be speaking from lack of knowledge.  Long experience
has shown that in issues of tolerance, many people tells pollsters that they
will vote whichever way is considered more tolerant, then actually vote the
other way.  This happened here in Colorado.  That is the dynamic this thread
was discussing.  People feel (the theory about this empirical knowledge goes)
that the pollster will think badly of them for being prejudiced or intolerant.
This happens with many issues not involving gays, by the way.

I do not believe there is an established dynamic of people telling pollsters
they they will vote opposite of what they actually do, because "they are
afreid of being stereotyped by people who believe that X should have special
rights".  I think that is your personal fantasy, not a political trend.
The pollster is not usually "people who believe..." and nobody of that 
category will know how the pollee responded anyway.  Your logic is seriously
misfiring.

Worst of all, you are going to have a hard time digging up some real live
people who believe "that homosexuals should have special rights", in order
to let them "stereotype you" <grin>.  I would bet that you don't have a single
friend or acquaintance who so believes (ask them), so just who are you afraid
of?  What does one call the act of imputing to an opposing group, an opinion
which they really don't hold, as you are doing?

>Isn't it interesting how suddenly 1/2 the people in Colorado are
>bigots and gay bashers? Yep, don't come to Colorado 'cause we can beat
>the shit out of you and not worry about being punished.

Hardly.  As has been pointed out here and elsewhere, many of the folks who
voted yes on ballot issue #2 THOUGHT they were just voting against special
rights; they had never read the amendment through carefully (as the sponsors
intended they not do), and did not see that the real effect would be to
destroy equal rights ordinances (which give NO rights to homosexuals they
they don't also give exactly equally to heterosexuals; quote ONE if you
doubt this).  These are hardly bigots or gay bashers; their fault, if any,
is that they were taken in by a slick and deceptive campaign by CFV.

Also, the ballot issue did not effect any change in laws about outright
physical assault; please do not misrepresent it.  It was a civil rights
issue.  Only a tiny fraction of those voting for #2 would commit physical
violence against gays.  We all know that.  Of course, that fraction is
dangerous, but that's another story, not part of election analysis. 

>It's quite clear to me that the anti 2 people are the bigots and
>stereotypers in this case. 

By now I should expect this sort of self-referential nonsense, I suppose.
I assume that you are not aware that your very statement PROVES that you,
an amendment 2 supporters, are stereotyping AND namecalling?  I don't think
that makes you a bigot (luckily, despite your stereotypes, most of us
opponents of issue 2 don't stoop to your level), but you do not come across
as intelligent and perceptive, nor even mature, in making such a statement.

>They are labeling anyone who voted for 2 as
>hating gays. 

Who is "they"?  I opposed #2, and I'm not so labeling.  Seems to me that you
are the one pushing labels and stereotypes.  I have no reason to think that
you hate gays.  I do have reason to question the quality of your reasoning.

>I just see my rights slowly dissolving
>away because everyone else is getting special protection. I think
>people are damn tired of it!

Eric, I sympathize with your feelings, but they are based on misperceptions
of reality, which have been foisted on you.  I challenge you to find any law
which gives gays rights which you and I don't also have.  Or to apologize if
you cannot.  I have issued this challenge to many people; they have all
failed, because these "special rights" don't exist.  If I'm wrong, you can
very easily so demonstrate.  You have been "taken in" by a slick campaign
which lied to you, and you believed it.  That does not make you a bigot, or
show that you hate anyone.  I have hope that you intellectual and moral
integrity will cause you to check the facts and rethink your position.

Namecalling is not going to advance your position nor status here.
Regards/ ~z~
Newsgroups: co.general