From: faigin@aero.org (Daniel P. Faigin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Torah is the center of every Jew? (was Orthadox Judaism and women)
Date: 22 Jan 93 11:00:52
Organization: The Aerospace Corporation, El Segundo, CA
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In-reply-to: khaikin@cis.ohio-state.edu's message of 22 Jan 1993 13:18:35 -0500

On 22 Jan 1993 13:18:35 -0500, khaikin@cis.ohio-state.edu (dmitry khaikin)
said: 

>>Before you continue to make your claims about Reform, you should investigate
>>closely. I can send you a reading list if you wish.

> Did I ever say that I know everyting about Reform movement? No. But what
> I did ask you is to give me your laws. So, you did give me some of your
> laws and I argued them and said that they were wrong. 

First of all, you're asking a layman for information. I'm not a Rabbi. Yet,
for questions on Orthodoxy, you ask if we have studied the sources. That's
what I'm asking you to do: study the sources and the references for Reform
Judaism.

Secondly, you say "your laws". Reform does not impose new laws, nor does it
have a set of laws that is exclusively Reform. The basic record of divine
ispiration is the Torah -- and that is true for both Reform and Orthodoxy.
Reform has its interpretation of Torah guideance, just as Orthodox has its
interpretation. These are simply that: interpretations. Not laws.

> That explaination is not enough for me. 

I believe that no explanation will be "enough" for you, given a fundamentally
different axiom set.

> I respect your right to
> choose, but I never said that I do or will respect your choice. 

Did I ever ask you to?

>>According to my wife, [...]

> That remains to be proven! [...]

I'll bring your posting home, and let my wife work up a response.

> So, in other words, a woman should study only those part
> of Torah that are relevant to the mitzvot she is commanded to keep. 

In other words, traditional Judaism makes a arbitrary distinction between the
sexist, and is thereforce, sexist.

>>(Daniel speaking again). Dmitry, this is just how I feel about you and your
>>attitude. If you choose to criticize, you have to learn of what you speak.

> What I talked about I learned from you. 

You instruct those not familiar with Orthodoxy to consult the Torah, as
opposed to the net; yet for Reform, you depend on a layman's knowledge.
Consult the sources and learn of what you speak.

>>> What made you think that Orthodox are sexist? Did the men in that shuls
>>> made inappropriate comments?

>>(Daniel again). Dmitry, you don't know what sexism is, and how it differs
>>from sexual harrassment. Inappropriate comments are not sexism -- they're
>>sexual harrassment. Sexism is akin to racism -- remember the Jim Crow laws
>>in the south. Sexism is treating women differently solely because of their
>>sex.  Making them sit in a separate area. Giving them different
>>responsibilities.  Denying them certain opportunties available to men (the
>>rabbinate, being a witness, initiating a get, saying wedding vows, etc.).
>>That's sexism.  Orthodoxy is sexist by definition.

> Did somebody deny a job for your wife? Because other issues remain to be
> argued. 

That's not the question. You asked what made me think Orthodoxy was sexist.

> Does not this just say everything? R. and Con. are up, Judaism is down.
> Although, this is probably true, this certainly does not show the
> Roformism and Conservatism are doing the right thing.

Since "right" is a subjective judgement, it doesn't say they're doing the
wrong thing either.

Daniel
--
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