HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tweaver@nyx.cs.du.edu (T.C.Weaver)
Subject: Re: Socratic silliness (was Re: Multiple Orientations?)
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 92 23:17:14 GMT

zen@death.corp.sun.com (d) writes:

>  Taking this analogy to socrates... the point was that he thought that
>no matter where he went, the same persecution would follow.  There was
>no place he could go to -- they were all worse than greece.  He could
>either hide his true nature, or try to make a statement somehow.  He
>chose a rather dramatic method.

Gideon (guest of Tanaqui):

Wrong, mostly.  Persecution was NOT going to follow him anywhere; his
friends (many of them influential) could have made him welcome in any
other Greek city.  Are you labouring under the illusion that classical
Greece was a nation, or had a capital?  Read the CRITO if you're not 
convinced.  S. wasn't the voice of individuality against the uncaring 
State, he just fell foul of an influential cabal.  Bother this "hide 
his true nature" stuff; he died because he wanted to hold to his
idealised version of the 'social contract' of participative democracy.
Hiding his true nature (whatever that may have been) wasn't being    
suggested, although his friends were keen that he take it somewhere 
safer for a while...



Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Subject: Where are the bisexuals?
Followup-To: soc.bi
Originator: lunde@casbah.acns.nwu.edu
Reply-To: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Organization: Ministry of Silly Walks
Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1992 13:31:47 GMT

I'm like to pursue the question of what are the "natural habitats"
of bisexuals in today's society -- spaces that are bi-friendly or
tolerant enough to encourage bis to be visible.

Many bi activists have come out thru the gay/lesbian communities; but there
are also significant contingents of bisexuals who feel little connection with
those communities.  (On one hand they don't have to deal with internal
gay/lesbian politics, on the other they don't have access to as much 
support/tools for dealing with conventional homophobia.)

Some areas that come to mind where "clumps" bisexuals have been observed:

 - Neo-pagan circles

 - Sci-fi fandom

(one may suggest that these groups are simply more tolerant...)

 - The polyamorous, "swingers"

(These are a source of a number of stereotypes of bisexuals, but it 
remains true that *some* people discover or explore their bisexuality
in the context of multiple relationships and/or group sex.)

 - FurryMUCK 

(I haven't been there, but it's got a reputation ;)

Do you folks have other suggestions? Where have you come out or found
other bisexuals?

-- 
 Albert Lunde         | Interfaith  |     *Y*Y*      "A branch on the
 Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu |  Bisexual   |      *Y*        tree of life"
 alunde@nuacvm.bitnet |  Feminist   |.......|.........................
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: tweaver@nyx.cs.du.edu (T.C.Weaver)
Subject: Re: Socratic silliness (was Re: Multiple Orientations?)
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 92 00:30:32 GMT


 mlloyd@westmark.Stanford.EDU (Mike Lloyd) writes:
>drb@kepler.unh.edu (Dean R Biron) writes:
 
>: This quote is attributed to Socrates when he was being held in prison,
>: shortly before being executed.  He was offered a chance to flee into exile
>: but refused, saying that if he could not even express his thoughts in
>: 'enlightened' Athens, how much worse it would be anywhere else.  Since
>: the unexamined life is not worth living, he literally chose death.
>
>What a twit!  (Socrates, not Dean :-)
>The unexamined life is indeed something of a waste, but to choose to
>die just because people don't like your opinions?  That's daft!
>[Mike thinks, yet again, of recent arguments here, and people's
>claims that they weren't being listened to ..]

er, no. He didn't choose to die because people didn't like his opinions, but
because he wasn't allowed to express them. The recent arguments here did include
exhortations to the silent, as well as exasperation at the noisy... and we all
know we can't actually stop Eric.

This is a more liberal forum even than "enlightened" Athens... which wasn't,
really. Especially for women. 

>OK, so I'm terribly cynical about highly-respected figures, esp.
>the likes of Greek philosophers or playwrights of good repute.
>This is probably because I'm too lazy to read them myself, so
>I need to justify my ignorance by calling them dumb ... *smirk*

hehe. Well, we won't hemlock you just yet. Try some Aristophanes, you'll love
it... really.. Mike? Mike?

Tanaqui


Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: orc@amber.uchicago.edu (David Parsons)
Subject: Re: Socratic silliness (was Re: Multiple Orientations?)
Organization: Ministry of Skritching
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 00:21:23 GMT

In article <ZEN.92Sep28165017@death.corp.sun.com> zen@death.corp.sun.com (d) writes:
|
|In article <1992Sep28.223504.4177@leland.Stanford.EDU> mlloyd@westmark.Stanford.EDU (Mike Lloyd) writes:
|   [...]
|> A good point, well made.  In my defense, I'll point out that it is
|> precisely the _death_ part that I objected to.
|> [...]
|> I guess I still
|> see some sacredness, some superb, colossal joke in human life,
|> and it's a pity to throw one away for something as petty as
|> *ideas* ....
|
|  Sigh... I disagree, as usual... *laugh*...
|
|  As *petty* as ideas?  Where would we be if people didn't stand up for
|what they believed in?

   There's standing up and standing up.  Sometimes it *is appropriate to
bow out of the fray, back off, then come back into the battle at a different
time and place.  In the case of this particular philosopher, one would think
that he could bugger out of Athens and bide his time in some provincial town
while continuing to do the exact same stuff he was doing before, and annoying
the Evil City Government in the same way, but without having his tuckus in
the same sort of mortal danger.

   (Ditto, too, for the unalienable human rights; there are times to back off
from public debate and spend a while building up an armoury so you can
persuade your foe that sheesh is wrong.) 


|The liberties, freedoms, and way of life that
|some of us enjoy are directly related to people who gave their lives for
|such things.

   Though in how many cases has it been that they tried one way to gain
/defend those rights, been thwarted and/or threatened, and retreated only
to come back later with more horsepower?

   To maintain some relevance to soc.bi, if the US government was to come
to me and tell me that homosexuality was a crime and my continuing to
practice it would result in my death, I would bow to the law, then leave
the country, resume my practices, and with whatever means necessary
attempt to convince the USA of the error of it's ways.


|[...]
|> There is an appropriate
|> time to die in opposition, but it's very rare.
|
|... many people with wonderful ideas did die violently.  I
|wonder what would happen if they had backed down when challenged.

   Some did.  And then found ways to get around the challenge, and
continue to work.  Ideas are an amazingly fluid material; unless you
are dead, you can continue to think, and these thoughts will get out
from under the most thorough blanket of disapproval.

|  In a sense, I can see your point -- *you* don't want to die, and
|wouldn't, for such things.  But saying it's foolish, say, for socrates
|to do what he did?  I don't understand.

   Iffy.  It was, after all, his life, and his choice what to do with it.
The danger is that acts like that become paragons of valor, and there's
the subtle implication that _everyone_ should die for those reasons, which
ain't necessarily so.

                 ____
   david parsons \bi/ orc@pell.chi.il.us
		  \/
From: bbooth@x400gate.bnr.ca (Brad Booth)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: chocolate = sex
Date: 27 Sep 92 20:31:55 GMT
Reply-To: bbooth@x400gate.bnr.ca (Brad Booth)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd, Ottawa
Originator: bbooth@bcrks6


eleanor.j.evans wrote:
> Brad Booth (dat's me) wrote:
> >Scott Dorsey wrote:
> >> --scott
> >>    (who defines the eating of Lindt bittersweet chocolate as 
> >>     a form of sex)
> >
> >Definitely have to agree with that. :)  Well, any bittersweet chocolate
> >counts in my books. ;)
> >
> >I guess now I can say that I've had sex in public, in an elevator, at 
> >work, ... gee, in all kinds of places. ;)
> >
> >Time to go buy some bittersweet chocolate,
> 
> Hey, Brad!  Can I have sex with you?!?!?!?  Can I, can I, huh, huh, huh???

Sure, I'm always willing to share. :)

Hmmm, maybe I should hurry and buy a crate of the stuff before a crowd
starts pounding on my door. ;) *chuckle*


Licking the remains of a bittersweet chocolate bar from my lips,

    __o     Brad Booth              | "I want you
  _`\<,_    Bell-Northern Research  |  to know me only as
 (*)/ (*)   Ottawa, Ontario, Canada |  what I believe I am."
----------  bbooth@x400gate.bnr.ca  |     ... Fiftyfour-40
From: SA121@phx.cam.ac.uk (Arrowsmith)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Wow
Date: 28 Sep 92 14:50:54 GMT
Organization: Surrealists against Lobsters

In article <1992Sep27.204204.573@leland.Stanford.EDU> mlloyd@westmark.Stanford.EDU (Mike Lloyd) writes:
> [ ... ]   I used to
>be very body-shy, but I find that's changing a lot, and I'm
>getting a huge amount out of hugs, backrubs and other contact.
>
I still am, to a great extent, "body-shy" -- I used to be actually
scared of having to touch someone or being touched by them.  I suppose
there's a close link between my trying to do something about this and
coming out as bisexual, but I'm not really sure which precipitated the
other.  I do still tend to have a physically isolated life -- not
because I can't distinguish between sexual and non-sexual contact, but
because even the latter still, to an extent, feels very "alien" to
me:

[Albert writes:]
>: (This likely has something to do with my family -- my parents didn't
>: start hugging me regularly until they both had been in the hospital with
>: life-threatening illnesses.)
>
>Yup - a familiar observation.  A couple of years ago, Dad started
>shaking my hand when I returned from long trips (to conferences
>or whatnot).  That was the first sign of physical contact with
>the parents since they stopped smacking me at a much earlier stage.
>Now both parents have got as far as hugs when I reappear, but
>generally this is too little too late to counter years of
>body-contact negativity.  Fortunately, I respond with rebellion
>and hunger, rather than perpetuation.
>
Indeed -- except there's been no reconcilliation, as such.  I sometimes
make contact with my mother, but we don't hug, and I don't have any
sort of contact with my father at all.  The situations a little better
with my grandmother, but, like Mike, there was such a long period of
my life when all contact with people was unpleasurable that there's a 
big mental block to overcome in accepting a freindly touch.


--
\S
SA121@phx.cam.ac.uk           | There's nowt |"Stormy weather turns to blue;
sarrowsm@nyx.cs.du.edu        | so queer as  |"Here's a song to take with you:
                              | folk....     |  --Mike Oldfield, "Taurus II"
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: mlloyd@westmark.Stanford.EDU (Mike Lloyd)
Subject: Re: A nagging question
Organization: DSO, Stanford University
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 92 05:37:45 GMT

Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde) writes:
: In article <6244@m1.cs.man.ac.uk> zzaascd@hpa.ee.man.ac.uk 
:  (Colin Dente) writes:
: >does alcohol taste better when drunk from Alex's navel, or
: >licked off Dave's chest?  Is Brie or Boursin the better topping for
: >Kay's nipples?  These questions, and more, *need* answering...
: 
: Yes! I suggest that these questions be looked into by a panel of 
: experts from various specialties, in order to develop a broad
: consensus across disciplines.

Ooh, ooh, ooh [Mike waves his hand in the air]
I volunteer for the whisky-tasting (I'll even provide :-), or could
make do with the pepper-cheese, esp. if comparing Colin and Albert ...

<flirt> <flirt>

Mike
-- 
Mike Lloyd, B0/1 h- f- t w- c g+ k+ s m- e? |"Bloody nose and burning eyes
      Retro-hippy, music nut, bi and        | Raised in laughter to the skies"
          backrubber of devotion            |     - Bruce Cockburn
 ....."I suffer from internalized homophonophobia"....."Their, they're".....
From: rsr@soda.berkeley.edu (Roy S. Rapoport)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: being "in love"
Date: 7 Oct 1992 02:29:15 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley, CS Undergraduate Association
NNTP-Posting-Host: soda.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Oct5.180304.21112@midway.uchicago.edu> h431@midway.uchicago.edu writes:

->bafflement.  I know that I came out to myself as bi after acknowledging that
->I had been in love with both men and women.  If it had only been one or
->the other I'd have called myself something else.
->
->And do you think the invocation of "love" is a good or bad technique for
->convincing the sceptical straight-person?

I suppose it _could_ work, if that was the case ... I mean, of the two
people in whose coming out I was deeply involved (myself and a friend of
mine in Germany), one case could work like that ... He could tell his
parents that he's bi because he's madly in love with a man (at which point
he'd also have to mention the fact he's never actually _met_ this person) ...

On the other hand, I decided I was bi long before I got involved with a man,
long before I got involved with anyone, really ... telling my parents
wouldn't have been helpful ... Of course now, seeing as how I'm poly they
can claim that I don't really love my MSO, because I'm involved with another
person (my FSO) (I wouldn't even _THINK_ of telling them about my LD D/s
relationship).

I generally just avoid the mess and don't tell them :).

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roy S. Rapoport         rsr@soda.berkeley.edu          bi-bdsm@ocf.berkeley.edu
          Yet another victim of the most dangerous man on Usenet.
DISCLAIMER:  "I meant every word of it ... but nobody else did."
From: nigel@isgtec.com (Nigel Burnett)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Nigel gets fired
Date: 1 Oct 92 19:49:46 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: ISG Technologies Inc., Mississauga Ontario


Hello world.  After working in the computer field for over 26 years,
I got fired without notice yesterday afternoon.  Job prospects look
a little thin in Toronto (just like everywhere).  I'd like to take
a few minutes to express my thanks to many many supportive people in
this news group.  I don't I could have come out any other way.  I've
begged news/mail access till Monday Oct 5 so I can let people know
that I didn't die.  For those who wish to keep in touch:

Nigel Burnett
78 Normandy Blvd.
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
M4L 3K3
(1) (416) 690-1834

Again, thanks to many for kind words.  There's always crash space and
good coffee if you want to visit.

Hugs (boy - do I ever need them now!)  :)}

N.


--
 "If somebody feels really good about who they are, they don't
  feel threatened by what other people are." - Dr. M. Rubenstein
Nigel Burnett:  business: 3030 Orlando Dr., Mississauga, Ont.,  416-672-2100
Send e-mail to nigel@isgtec.com, uunet.ca!isgtec!nigel, or nigel@isgtec.UUCP
From: Darren.Hanson@f271.n103.z1.fidonet.org
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: chocolate = sex
X-Sender: newtout 0.02 Oct  1 1992
Date: 01 Oct 92  23:15:00

orc@amber.uchicago.edu (David Parsons) wrote:
 > In article <1992Sep25.182930.1375@bcrka451.bnr.ca>
 > bbooth@x400gate.bnr.ca (Brad Booth) writes:
 > |Scott Dorsey writes:
 >|> --scott
 >|>    (who defines the eating of Lindt bittersweet chocolate as
 >|>     a form of sex)
 > |I guess now I can say that I've had sex in public, in an
 > elevator, at
 > |work, ... gee, in all kinds of places. ;)

 >    (The sound of plummeting purity scores is heard...)
I was worried that I scored a 98 on the 500 question test until I saw that I
was supposed to divide by 5.... O:-)
 >                  ____
 >    david parsons \bi/ 58% Pure
 >                   \/
__
\/  Darren Hanson

---
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: jcatesii@nyx.cs.du.edu (James Cates III)
Subject: Re: Multiple Orientations?
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 92 06:15:28 GMT



On the topic of Mulitple Orientations....

I posted perhaps a week ago, but did'nt get back to this group for
a few days...by then there were far too many posts to sift through,
so I'm not sure if it got through.

Anyway, I think this muffin is about ready...oven mitts anyone?

Jim

" I think he went both'aways..."
From: jrk@information-systems.east-anglia.ac.uk (Richard Kennaway)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: What is a TOCOTOX?
Date: 27 Sep 92 08:27:53 GMT

I keep seeing this abbreviation here.  What does it mean?  Sounds like
a clockwork doll, but that can't be it, can it?

--
Richard Kennaway     SYS, University of East Anglia, Norwich NR4 7TJ, U.K.
Internet:  jrk@sys.uea.ac.uk               uucp:  ...mcsun!ukc!uea-sys!jrk
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: iw@tosser.Rational.COM (Sults)
Subject: Re: Yay!
Organization: Rational
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 20:51:50 GMT

muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy) writes:


>I love kissing...*smile*.  Mouths vary by individuals; I haven't noticed
>any gender-related differences.  However, the bodies *are* usually

Well I actually do find the stubble/ no stubble thing an important
gender difference in kissing.  I love stubble, but hate beards.  I love
the soft downy hair that most women have around their mouths.  
But I definitely find the two experiences different.

Iseult.
From: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Where are the bisexuals?
Followup-To: soc.bi
Date: 5 Oct 92 11:18:18
Organization: Natural Language Incorporated
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
In-reply-to: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu's message of Sun, 4 Oct 1992 13:31:47 GMT

In article <1992Oct4.133147.11002@news.acns.nwu.edu> Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde) writes:
> Do you folks have other suggestions? Where have you come out or found
> other bisexuals?

The local BDSM people seem to be almost all bi or bi-friendly.  It was
there that I met enough nice, interesting women to determine that I was
attracted to "women"...prior to that, it had only been one individual,
so it was hard to tell how well that would generalize...*smile*.  I have
noticed, though, that there is still more apparent acceptance of female
bisexuals than male by the "straight" (if that word really applies to
BDSM people...*grin*) people.

Muffy
--

Muffy Barkocy                               muffy@mica.berkeley.edu
~Little round planet/in a big universe/sometimes it looks blessed/
 sometimes it looks cursed/Depends on what you look at, obviously/
 But even more it depends on the way that you see~ - Bruce Cockburn
From: MJW19@phx.cam.ac.uk
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: images of Heroes
Date: 27 Sep 92 00:30:59 GMT
Reply-To: MJW19@phx.cam.ac.uk (M.J.Williams on turves.cl.cam.ac.uk)
Organization: The National Society for the Inversion of Cudddly Tigers

In article <19e3oqINN35m@plts.uucp> tal@plts.uucp (Tom Limoncelli) writes:
>I'm bi.  I can send you a JPEG of me brushing my teeth.  Do you
>consider that to be a bisexual act?

I suppose it really depends on what your toothbrush.

Oh damn. Now look what I've gone and done -- I've posted to soc.bi. What a
giveaway.

_______________________________________________________________________________
 \   ^   / Michael Williams                     Part II Computer Science Tripos
  |\/|\/\  MJW19@phx.cam.ac.uk                          University of Cambridge
  |  |(__) Cymdeithas Genedlaethol Traddodiad Troi Teigrod Mwythus Ben I Waered
   ________________________________________________________________________
     \   ^   /  | Michael Williams          Part IB Computer Science Tripos
      |\/|\/\   | MJW19@phx.cam.ac.uk               University of Cambridge
      |  |(__)  | Cymdeithas Genedlaethol y Trawddodiad o Dywalgwn Hawddgar
From: cllcor01@uctvax.uct.ac.za
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: I have a question !
Date: 1 Oct 92 15:56:55 GMT
Article-I.D.: uctvax.1992Oct1.135655.202944
Organization: University of Cape Town

What I want to know is :If a female is bi-sexual,are her male
partners necessarily bi as well?
I'll tell you why.
Reading this newsgroup impressed me in one sense ; that people
were talking about each other and their feelings and being
fairly HONEST.
Honesty is so important, and thats why I hope that my message will not
be treated as a horny male fantasy derived from reading too many
girlie magazines.Since sexuality is pretty taboo in my country
and there are NO girlie magazines anyway, I at least have a case.
Im from South Africa and would like to correspond with bi-women.
The reason is that Im one of the few South Africans able to explore
my sexuality. I have more than a fascination for bi-women.I feel
I understand them.I have always been called female in my thought
processes and really do communicate better with women.
Id like someone out there to be able to talk to me about herself,
using the incredible distance between us as a protective barrier,
so that I can learn more!
Thanks for the time
Corrin
From: pclary@mushroom.csc.calpoly.edu (Ellen Clary)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: expressing anger
Date: 28 Sep 92 03:10:03 GMT
Organization: Cal Poly, San Luis Obispo, CA - aka Barnum & Bailey

pclary@mushroom.csc.calpoly.edu (Ellen Clary) wrote...
>cjmchale@dsg.cs.tcd.ie (Ciaran McHale) wrote...
>>Can anybody point me in the right direction to books/articles/etc about
>>the expression of anger, especially about how to express anger in
>>non-destructive (to ourselves or others) ways.
>>It's a subject that I would like to read up on sometime.
>
><dig, dig, rummage, rummage...etc>
>Ok, here's what I could come up with.  I didn't find anything that
>directly addresses non-destructive expression of anger the way that
>the previously recommended _Dance of Anger_ does, but you could
>consider these supplementary reading.  (I learned how to deal with 
>anger (sort of) in therapy so I'm lacking in written references).

I knew I'd forget at least one reference.

Self Therapy
Muriel Schiffman
  I never finished this book and it has been awhile since I've 
  read the parts that I did read.  However there is a section
  on "How to safely feel a 'Dangerous' emotion," which does
  deal some with safe expression of anger, but not nearly
  enough in my opinion.  She recommends activities like 
  writing to work out anger.  For me, writing is great in
  some cases, but when I really want to break things, writing
  just doesn't work (unless I want to break pens and pencils...)
  Also this book is very hetero and Amero-centric.

Ellen