From: mam@jcnpc.cmhnet.org (Mike A. McAngus)
Subject: Re: iq<->religion: connection?
Organization: Homebrew Virtual Reality Labs
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Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 15:22:51 GMT

Iikka Paavolainen (iikkap@mits.mdata.fi) wrote:
: In article <1992Dec24.222810.20420@nmsu.edu> sdoe@nmsu.edu (Stephen Doe) writ
es:
: >
: >I'm not very impressed by all this anecdotal evidence flying around.
: >8 or so people aren't very good statistics.  Many of the most
:
: If you find an increasing number of atheists the higher you go in logical
: intelligence, I think that is much more proof than you can show.

People tend to associate with others who share their values and outlook. So
Stephen Doe is correct, your anecdotal experiences are not statistically
significant.

:
: >influential people in Christian history (Luther, Calvin, Wesley etc.)
: >were *very* intelligent.  In fact, I would think that the intelligent
:
: Proof?
: How about aspects of personality such as courage, sacrifice and valour?

Of what is this a proof?

:
: >believer, internalizing the psychological ploys that biblical belief
: >boils down to, will suffer *more* than the rank and file believer, and
: >will be more firmly enmeshed in the biblical scheme.
: >
: >I have yet to see a satisfactory definition of intelligence, one that
: >doesn't boil down to how well one does on some arbitrary intelligence
: >test.
:
: Nobody was talking about the whole definition of intelligence, just the
: logical and abstract thinking part, which is easy to measure.

Where is your statistical study of this area of intelligence?

:
: >
: >It isn't illogical to presuppose a supernatural realm, unperceived by
: >our senses, any more than it is illogical to suppose that the Many
: >Worlds Hypothesis is a reasonable interpretation of quantum mechanics;
: >it's just that such speculations are far-fetched.  They have the
: >virtue (from the believer's perpsective) of being non-disprovable.
:
: Illogical? In absence of evidence it seems more like fantasizing.
: Of course one believes what one has most rational (this is where logical
: intelligence comes in) proof of. In an environment where Christianity
: has a stranglehold, other proof is basically unavailable. Thus, he/she
: will most likely become a Christian (correlation applies).

I think you are begging the question here.

: >
: >I become very uneasy when I see people say "Oh the religious are
: >dumber (or smarter) than others on average."  It can too easily
: >degenerate into an ad hominem attack, in which one dismisses beliefs
: >one disagrees with because one believes one's opponent lacks
: >intelligence.  Being intelligent is no guarantee that one is right.
:
: Then what is? And what is intelligence then?

There are no guarantees.  Who knows, at very great distances from Sol (i.e. 
many millenia in the past) the laws of physics may be different from what we 
observe here.  We act as if physics is consistent in the observable universe 
but we have no guarantees, regardless of our rationality.  Again, I think 
Stephen Doe is correct, this whole thread is a series of ad hominem arguments.

: When you talk of these kinds of things, try to be indifferent. You seem so
: emotionally attached (see message you replied to) to Christianity.

And you're not emotionally wedded to the notion that athiests are more 
intelligent (since I'm an atheist I should feel complimented, but I think your 
argument is pointless without proper study).

:
: >
: >SD
:
:
: --
:  __/|_  ,  ,--------------------------------------------------------------,
: /o    \/:--| Iikka Paavolainen / iikkap@mits.mdata.fi, in Espoo, Finland  |
: \__~__/\:--| "I won't have a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent."    |
:    `    `  `--------------------------------------------------------------'

I'm armed, ready and waiting.
-- 
Mike McAngus 			 | As if I needed Another time consuming hobby.
(mam@jcnpc.cmhnet.org)		 | 
The Truth is still the Truth	 | This Post exploits illiterates.
Even if you choose to ignore it. | 
Newsgroups: alt.atheism