Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re:  Niven and Female Aliens
From: alien@acheron.amigans.gen.nz (Ross Smith)
Date: 10 Jan 93 15:07:55 GMT+12
Distribution: world
Organization: Muppet Labs

In article <1993Jan9.063436.4294@ils.nwu.edu> blum@medici.ils.nwu.edu (Dan Blum) writes:
>Eric Goldstein (eric@ils.nwu.edu) wrote:
>
>> This sounds like a fun game!  Ignoring the question of whether Niven has a
>> deep-seated authorial neurosis, how many of Niven's alien species do NOT
>> have non-sentient females?
>
>> Dani Zweig, for example,  pointed out that the Moties are
>> Hermaphroditic.
>
>> How about the Grogs?  Weren't the females the only intelligent ones?  (I think
>> this was even cited as evidence of a coverup in the farcical Down In Flames....)

Yes, the fact that the Grogs have sentient females, while the Slavers they're
supposed to be descended from had sentient males, was part of the evidence
that the whole Slaver business was fake.

(I heard/read a rumour recently -- wish I could remember where -- that Niven
is actually planning to write "Down in Flames" for real. Anyone know anything
about this?)

>> How about the Martians?  Did Niven ever mention any sexual characteristics?
>
>> How about the Kladato(sp) -- the race that "cleverly" used the water hole
>>     frequency to discover the Kzinti.  Any reference to unintelligent females?

Kdatlyno. As far as I can recall the only Kdatlyno we ever meet is the one
in "Grendel".

>> How about the Bandersnatch?  Or the Outsiders?  Any sexual reproduction at all?

The Bandersnatchi are asexual -- they reproduce by fission, liked one-celled
creatures, mainly because that's exactly what they are. Nobody knows how the
Outsiders reproduce (answers to personal questions cost one trillion stars
apiece). I've always suspected that starseeds are part of their life cycle...

>> What about the Protectors?  There were intelligent female protectors, but do
>> protectors count as a seperate species?  Presumably they do, as the breeders
>> from the Protector's home world couldn't breed with humans.

Protectors had no reproductive organs, so presumably they were called "he"
and "she" purely out of habit.

>> For that matter, I suppose all of the hominids on the Ringworld are
>> examples of species which have intelligent females.  (In addition, here we
>> have females who can take on the same roles as the males -- witness the
>> female Nighthunter guard in the floating city in The Ringworld Engineers.
>> Oh, and how about the female chief of the small red carnivourous species
>> we meet at the beginning of the same book?  In fact, I think The Ringworld
>> Engineers may have featured females in the majority of the powerful or
>> authoritative roles...but I really didn't want to get into politics!)
>
>> Seriously, please don't consider this to be a flame on Sara Beck.
>> I'm not even arguing that Niven isn't a misogynist.
>
>> Politics aside, can anyone else think of any other Niven species which do
>> not have non-sentient females?
>
>>     -- Eric            (eric@ils.nwu.edu)

Other species in the Known Space series :

   Tnuctipun -- I don't recall any reference to their sexes, or even whether
   they had any, but I don't have a copy of "World of Ptavvs" on hand to
   check. (And then of course there's the Big Secret in "Down in Flames" :-)

   Trinocs -- No mention of sex (definitely, I just checked), except that the
   one individual we meet is referred to as "it" in "There is a Tide" but as
   "he" in "Ringworld".

   Pierin -- About whom we know absolutely nothing beyond the name.

   Puppeteers -- (The interesting one!) Females lay their eggs in the bodies
   of another species (nonsentient), then the males fertilise them; the young
   Puppeteers kill the host creature, like wasps (or Aliens). Confusingly,
   the Puppeteers themselves refer to all of their species as "males"
   (regardless of their biological sex) and the other species as "females"...

>And let's not forget the chirpsithtra (from the Draco's Tavern
>stories)!  The males are apparently the property of the females, who
>also own most of the galaxy :).

Humans have only met female Chirps, who refuse to say anything about their
males, and get offended if the subject is mentioned. However, there's a very
interesting scene in one of the stories ("Grammar Lesson"). A Chirp explains
to our hero (what was his name, something Draco?) that their language has
three versions of the word "my" -- the "intrinsic my" ("my hand"), the
"possessive my" ("my ship"), and the "associative my" ("my friend") (I may
not have the details quite right there, it's been a while since I read it).
He forgets his manners and asks why they use the "intrinsic my" for "my
husband", then quickly changes the subject.

I've always suspected, based on this, that the Chirps are like anglerfish :
the males are tiny (and nonsentient), and actually become a permanent part
of the female's body when they mate.

--
...... Ross Smith (Wanganui, NZ) ...... alien@acheron.amigans.gen.nz ......

"I blame you for the moonlit sky and the dream that died with the Eagle's flight
I blame you for the moonlit nights when I wonder why are the seas still dry
Don't blame me, sleeping satellite"                              (Tasmin Archer)

--