From: ramon@convex.com (Ramon Dominguez)
Subject: Re: how to get to root of strange behavior
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 22:29:06 GMT
Organization: The Arts Babblative and Scribblative
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In article <Qf=ddOi00XsFRV=EUU@andrew.cmu.edu> David O Hunt <bluelobster+@CMU.EDU> writes:
=>
=>I say:  Dump him!  Yes, I know, but it bears saying.  He's treating you
=>like dirt, taking you for granted, etc.  I know it's hard if he is your
=>first boyfriend, but NOBODY, repeat NOBODY deserves to be ignored and
=>played with like you are....
=>
=>And my SO says:
=>
=>It doesn't cost a lot to have someone "checked up on"...You should be able
=>to get a credit check, and/or criminal records check for less than $50.
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

	Illegally, of course, unless you happen to be a corporation that
	is a creditor of his.

=>If immigration COULD be an issue, though, and you don't want him deported,
=>I'd keep quiet as immigration acts on requests for information.
=>So, if you really want to check up on him, you should be able to afford
=>the services of a reputable private investigator, as long as the investi-
=>gation you want isn't TOO detailed or time-consuming. My question to you,
=>though, is WHY BOTHER?
=>
=>You have all of the information you need. He lies. He uses you for
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
=>financial reasons (i.e. he steals). You sound like a decent human being:
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
=>Forgiving and loving. He, on the other hands, sounds like a lower form
=>of life.

	It's hard to believe how you all are taking rwarren's side on this.
	You are inventing stuff that wasn't even implied in the original post.
	I've included the original post below for quick reference, read it.
	Nowhere does she even imply that he has used her for ANYTHING.  This
	is blatant sexism, as I am certain that if the sexes were reversed
	you all would be saying, "Leave her alone.  She neither needs nor
	wants a creep like you hanging around.  She obviously has no interest
	in you whatever, and you're lucky that she hasn't had you charged with
	harassment."

	"Lower form of life"?  Oh yes, I get it: male.  All together now!
		MAN   BAD!
		WOMAN GOOD!
		MAN   BAD!
		WOMAN GOOD!
		MAN   BAD!
		WOMAN GOOD!
		MAN   BAD!
		WOMAN GOOD!
		MAN   BAD!
		WOMAN GOOD!

=>Of COURSE you love him. You fell in love with him honestly. But he doesn't
=>love you now...IF he ever did. Some men know a "free ride" (no, I'm not
=>talking about sex, here, though that may be a part of it, too), and some
=>men are very, very good at finding these free rides.

	A free ride?  Reread what she wrote and show me where he's looking
	for a free ride.  What he obviously wants is to have her off his
	back.  On the other hand, she wants him to pay for expensive dates
	although she makes more money than he does, while he is working three
	jobs and goes to school.  Oh yeah, he's a real bastard for not blowing
	all his money on her.

=>I have an ex-husband who didn't work a day from our marriage forward. He
=>took money from our checking account without telling me so that he could
=>buy cassette tapes or T-shirts or whatever struck his fancy that day. He
=>liked to go out and shoot pool with the boys, using MY money while I was
=>expected to sit home and then go to bed alone. Trust me. You don't need
=>it. It hurts now, and it will go on hurting and hurting and hurting until
=>you've finally had enough. If you love YOURSELF at all, take David's advice.
=>DUMP HIM.

	It certainly sounds like you're projecting your experience with your
	ex-husband onto the present situation.  Nothing in rwarren's post
	suggested that this man was taking *any* kind of advantage of her.
	If anyone is taking advantage it is rwarren.  Just imagine, she has
	the nerve to state that if he has time to work three jobs and go to
	school then he should have time to be her chaffeur!  Hell, he
	probably has no time to sleep!

	It certainly sounds like this guy has tried to get the message across
	that he doesn't want to have anything to do with her anymore.  Given
	the fact that she doesn't sound like the most well-adjusted personality
	in the world, I'm not surprised that he hasn't tried the more direct
	approach of simply telling her to leave him alone.  Given the tone of
	her post and the request for simple and effective espionage techniques,
	this really sounds like a "Fatal Attraction"-esque case and her "friend"
	may actually be afraid of the consequences if he were to give her the
	"decent goodbye" that she claims she would be satisfied with.

	I don't know about you folks, but I believe in equality of the sexes.
	rwarren is the one with the "strange behavior" in this case.  I wouldn't
	be surprised if the reason this guy changes address so frequently is to
	try to drop out of her sight.  I feel sorry for him, she sounds like a
	real creepy person to have on your case.  Please take the time to reread
	the original posting and then tell me where the man has committed any
	crime other than dropping heavyhanded hints that he is not interested
	in a relationship with rwarren.

	Probably I'll get flamed for being so candid, and for (admittedly) not
	taking rwarren's feelings into account in my descriptions of my view
	of the situation.  You all needed a reality check, and this is directed
	at you, not rwarren.  I would invite her to email me if she feels
	offended by what I wrote, because I can see that this is a painful
	period in her life and I don't really want to add to that pain.
	However it is outrageous that all you others blame the man because
	he's male.  (Again, reread the post with the sexes reversed and ask
	yourself if the man wouldn't be viewed as a potentially dangerous
	harasser.)

	Men do not exist for the pleasure of women, nor vice versa.  You
	are not entitled to a relationship with a particular individual
	because you want one, to do other than to accept that fact gracefully
	is childish, immature, or worse.


=>Article 11686 of soc.couples:
=>Path: convex!convex!darwin.sura.net!spool.mu.edu!olivea!charnel!sifon!newsflash.concordia.ca!vax2.concordia.ca!rwarren
=>From: raw
=>Newsgroups: soc.couples
=>Subject: how to get to root of strange behavior
=>Message-ID: <14DEC199216362551@vax2.concordia.ca>
=>Date: 14 Dec 92 21:36:00 GMT
=>Sender: rwarren@vax2.concordia.ca (Rosemary from Montreal)
=>Organization: Concordia University
=>Lines: 85
=>News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41
=>Nntp-Posting-Host: vax2.concordia.ca
=>
=>hello out there,
=>i hope someone can suggest how to patch up a relationship:
=>
=>i have been pals off-and-on for 4 years with this guy.  we have a 
=>relationship that is not 100% satisfying to me.  it has been a couple of 
=>years since we have been on a "real date" (defined for myself as going out 
=>to dinner somewhere nicer than a fast-food joint plus pre-planned entertainment 
=>that does not involve walking the streets or removing clothing).
=>
=>he claims to be broke, but can afford to change addresses at least once a 
=>year and to drive a car.  i am supposed to be his girlfriend, but i very 
=>rarely see him (the last occasion was in may).  the latest bone of 
=>contention has been whether he would pick me up after night school.  after 
=>much hemming and hawing and claiming not to know when and where my classes 
=>are, the reason has come out that he has no time to do so -- but he has 
=>plenty of time to hold down 3 (at last count) jobs plus night classes of 
=>his own, plus whatever i don't know about.
=>
=>for over a year, he has claimed to have no telephone, because he ran up a 
=>huge long-distance bill and the phone co. cut his line.  if i wanted to talk 
=>to him, i either had to wait for him to call me (perhaps once a month 
=>lately) or call his (male) "friend" and leave a message.  often these 
=>messages would not be passed along, or he would get them too late.  
=>occasionally a girl would answer (supposedly the friend's girlfriend), who 
=>was always very reluctant to take a message (particularly annoying when 
=>you've lost your quarter in the pay phone).  one time, i called this 
=>friend, a woman answered the phone (not the one just mentioned) and she 
=>hung up as soon as she heard my voice.  i was later told by my "boyfriend" 
=>that this was his friend's mother, who did not speak english.
=>
=>whenever i would ask if he had a number yet, my boyfriend would respond 
=>"when you pay the bill" -- which i had no hand in running up to over $1000.
=>
=>the new telephone books came out at the beginning of the month, and i was 
=>genuinely surprised to see a listing for my boyfriend.  i called the 
=>number, and left a message on the machine that picked up -- with his voice! 
=>when i did not hear from him, i phoned again that night.  he did not 
=>recognize my voice, and he was quite annoyed that i had called him.
=>he has been very angry with me since then, refusing to answer my messages 
=>or to talk to me when i do reach him.  his new (male) roommate has given me 
=>one of his work numbers, but it is very noisy and hard to hear him, plus i 
=>don't like to disturb him at work -- i wouldn't want him calling me at my 
=>office.
=>
=>he claims not to have a girlfriend other than me (and from our last "real" 
=>conversation two weeks ago, i don't think he regards me that way anymore), 
=>and the roommates/message-takers i have 
=>spoken to over the years will not tell me anything about him.  we have no 
=>mutual friends, so i can't pump them for info either.  i have asked him 
=>point-blank if he is in trouble with the law or immigration (he claims to 
=>be a refugee) and he denies both.
=>
=>one more comment:  he's black, i'm white.  it matters not to us, but my 
=>mother has plenty to say about it.  we cannot talk for longer than 5 
=>minutes on the phone at home without hearing my mother screaming racial 
=>insults and trying to cut the connection.
=>
=>i know what you're all gearing up to say:  DUMP HIM!  but if i do, i will 
=>have no one again, and i don't think i can cope with that right now.  too 
=>much is going wrong in my life, and i want to be happy.  i have left out 
=>some details for brevity's and clarity's sake.
=>
=>here are my questions.  pls e-mail if possible, otherwise posting is ok (it 
=>may help someone else):
=>
=>-- How can i LEGALLY AND CHEAPLY check up on this guy?  (so far, his only 
=>crime against me is breaking my heart and messing up my life.  contrary to 
=>what my "friend" 
=>thinks, i am not rich, even though my salary is higher than his.)
=>
=>-- How can i make him stop treating me like crap, without compromising my 
=>beliefs and values?  (ie. not by sleeping with him, living together/getting 
=>married)
=>
=>-- How do i ask him to take me out on a date, but make sure he pays, the 
=>way a gentleman should?  (common protocol seems to dictate that whoever 
=>does the asking does the paying.  however, if i pay the way one time i will 
=>be expected to pay ALL the time, and that's not right.)
=>
=>please forgive such a long message, but i need help.  this is my first 
=>boyfriend, and he did treat me halfway decently at one point.  i have given 
=>him umpteen second chances -- why can't i get one, or at least a decent 
=>goodbye?
=>
=>rosemary
=>
=>
-- 
Ramon Dominguez             | "Work is the curse of the drinking class"       
Convex Computer Corporation |                            --Oscar Wilde
ramon@convex.com            | "Ceci n'est pas une .signature file"
Newsgroups: soc.couples