From: abvax!ALF.CS.HH.AB.COM!BENNING
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: re: Idolatry is equal to Atheism
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 11:05:35 -0500 (EST)

>From: strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom)
>Newsgroups: alt.messianic
>Subject: Re: Idolatry and atheism are equal.
>
>I have met no one associated with the public schools who fits
>the definition you gave above.  I didn't understand your
>last sentence.

  I don't know how to resolve this issue then Rob. I know them, and you
  don't. Gridlock. Let me ask  any readers on A.M. who have followed this
  thread to post if they know of the type of humanism I have defined in the
  schools, public offices or even the work place. Rob, have you had contact
  with the NEW AGE work ethic programs which try to empower managers to
  tap their full potential? In the Cleveland School district (public) a
  brother in Yeshua had to go through a process of humiliation and lots
  of travel because his daughter reported some strange activity. The problem
  was that the student council was bused off to a weekend workshop where
  the children were exposed to a _mind expanding_ camp. They were told they
  had god potential inside of them that, when tapped, would allow them to
  accomplish every task they took on. The reason they had to go through many
  of these _meditation_ periods was to remember their god potential, which
  they forgot (some god potential). ALSO, they were warned NOT TO TELL
  anyone (parents included) what they had done and learned. This mans
  daughter was the only one who did tell, and she was ridiculed by those
  who had gone to the same camp. The school has denied ALL charges, and
  suggests the daughter seek help. I believe one of the other children
  FINALLY did come forward and confessed to what happened also.


>|>   after coming into a relationship with the living God, Reform was a
>|>   "man" based religion MORE than a "God" based religion.
>
>You know this is unfair.  Would you like me to categorize
>Christians by speaking to disillusioned ex-Christians?
>Should I try to learn about Catholicism from Sinead O'Connor?

 I will desist then Rob. It isn't my main point anyway. My point in this
 is that in the Eyes of the Lord, Atheism(rejection of God) and Idolatry
 (worship of a false god) are equal.

>|> RS>I don't wish to defend atheism here, but the above is not Jewishly
>|> RS>First of all, although the atheist may not be fulfilling
>|> RS>the commandment to worship, he still may be serving God.
>|> RS> ("Better that they forget Me, but remember My commandments".)
>|>       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>[Jeremiah 2:19; Job 8:11]
>|>
>|>   Deut 6:12 says; "Be careful that you do not forget the Lord, who brought
>|>   you out of Egypt."
>|>   Deut 8:11 says; "Be careful that you do not forget the Lord your God,
>|>   failing to observe his commands."
>|>
>Aha, but you misread Deut 8:11.  Remember that the Biblical style
>is to say the same idea in two parallel ways.  I would interpret
>this verse as saying that "forget the Lord your God" and "failing
>to observe His commands" are synonyms.  The implication is
>that if someone *doesn't* fail to observe His commands he isn't
>really "forgetting" God.

 Oh PLEASE Rob! Enough is enough. I can't believe your going to tell me
 that I can forget God (though I'm not really forgetting Him) but I can
 remember His commandments (which is remembering Him). That makes your
 comment _Better that they forget Me, but remember My commandments_   a
 foolish statement. That is if you are saying that observance of the
 commandments is the same as remembering God.
 And I still ask you, Which is greater God or His commandments?

>Christians become atheists, too, you know.

  What do you mean Rob? I know of NO Christian (MJ,MG...) who has know
  the LORD and then became an atheist. I know a lot of people who played
  RELIGION but never knew or tasted of the Lord. They have gone into being
  atheists, or new agers, or even started a new religion. A Christian is a
  person who knows their sins are forgiven by the God of Abraham Issac and
  Jacob through the atonement made by Messiah Yeshua. A person who knows
  this surely does not become an atheist. What would be the point?
>
>The major reasons I've seen Jews become atheists have been:
>(a) Seeing the evil, cruelty, and injustice in the world
>    (e.g. Holocaust, famines, etc.) and being unable
>    to accept that a kind and merciful God would allow it.
>(b) They were taught to accept some irrational dogmatic
>    interpretation of the Bible which they could not
>    square with their rational understanding.

  Sounds like rebellion Against God to me. Scripture clearly explains these
  things, and a heart that is willing to be circumcised to the Almighty
  can accept them.

>How many Jewish Auschwitz survivors became Christians?

 That is a number I can't give. Though I have read of a few, and even met
 three or so of them. They do exist. One woman said that the worst thing
 she could see coming out of the Nazi rule was that Jews falsely believed the
 Nazis represented Jesus and His people. Because of this false belief,
 those who suffer from the internal wounds of the death camps refuse to go
 to the One and only cure. Yeshua.

>I would hope that the Christians would have the mercy
>to leave these poor tortured people alone and not try
>to convert them.

 Real mercy is obtained through faith in Messiah Yeshua. You wouldn't
 keep that from those who suffer now would you?
 To you it is a conversion. To those who know Yeshua, it is a continuation.

         Bruce Benning __________ benning@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com

         -------------Religion may inform and reform-------------
         ----------but only Messiah Jesus can Transform----------

    Come and listen, all you who fear God; let me tell you what he has
    done for me. I cried out to him with my mouth; his praise was on my
    tongue. If I had cherished sin in my heart, the Lord would not have
    listened and heard my prayer. Praise be to God, who  has not rejected
    my prayer or withheld his love from me.
                                          [Psalm 66:16-20]