HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: pagan self-defense
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 20:16:28 GMT

cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
: 
: You get a gun, a device that is capable of dropping someone like lead in
: a millisecond, and to keep it safe until you need it, you unload it and

Such a thing happening would be a rarity. It would be more probable with
a shotgun or a rifle.

... deleted ...

: I understand your call for protection, and the attraction of guns
: because of the totality of the protection they offer is something I
: share.  However, concerns like this that NO ONE has yet to resolve make
: them just too damned dangerous.  They are all one way or all the other
: -- you either keep them loaded and capable of killing 100% of the time
: or they are owrthless little hunks of cast-metal.

No firearm is capable of being used to kill 100% of the time. Even under
the best of conditions and being used by an expert. Just ask any police
officer who has been in a firefight.

... deleted ...

: Nope.  An armed society is one where people are blown away constantly --
: witness the good old U. S. of A.  An armed society is a murder-crazed

Wrong. The USA is just murder/assault crazed - period. The availability
of firearms does not make this so.

: one.  An armed society is a dangerous society.  An armed society is a
: psychotic society, needing only a small tip before it overturns and
: crushed you underneath.  An armed society is a deadly society.  Someone

For a counter example. All able bodied males in Switzerland are required
to have a weapon in the house. That weapon is often fully automatic. They
are also allowed to buy surplus military weapons for their own use. Such
weapons often are anti-tank weapons etc.  Now, Switzerland has one of the
lowest robbery, assault and murder rates in the world.

Just face it. The population of the US is just violent. 

: once posted that in Canada (last year, I think) they had a total of 650
: murders in the whole damned country; the place has 25,000,000 people.
: 650 won't even total the murders in one big American city, land of guns,
: for one year.  I'm sorry -- an armed society forces ME to be armed; it

According to the government - about as many people are murdered with knives
as are murdered with firearms. I seem to recall that as many people are
murdered with blunt objects, such as clubs and fists, as are killed by the
use of firearms.  Something for you to ponder.

I agree that it can be hazardous to have firearms around the house,
especially if you are unwilling to teach proper firearm safety to
the kids. However, most firearm deaths in the country are due to
family arguments. Here, not having a gun might have prevented some
deaths, but then, it might not have. Some other weapon could have
been used instead.  In this case, you would find that the percentage
of women killed by their spouses would be higher than the other way
around.

Bill
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Subject: Re: men's spirituality (was Re: New Pagans and Reading)
Followup-To: alt.pagan
Originator: lunde@casbah.acns.nwu.edu
Reply-To: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Organization: Ministry of Silly Walks
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 05:26:21 GMT

In article <2AAD3EC3.10220@news.service.uci.edu> 
 cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>The women's mysteries are both born from old traditions and are newly
>created; the point is that WOMEN are investigating them and adapting
>them to modern lifes and each woman adapts them further to her own life.
>All this garbage is being dug up after centuries of neglect by women for
>women.  It's not a tablets-from-the-mountain thang (pardon the
>metaphor).  Many of us are hands-in-the-dirt archaeologists,
>researching this stuff as I am, and looking for "women's mysteries,"
>whatever the hell they are.
>
>It's not new creations, and it's not ancient mysteries.  It's more of a
>digging-up of all the old stuff and interpreting it, rescuing it from
>its moldering destiny on old bookshelves and anti-woman bashing.  These
>things are a lot of work, even if they come from ancient inspiration. 
>

A few quasi-random thoughts/reading suggestions on "men's mysteries":

"The God Of Ecstacy: Sex Roles and The Madness of Dionysos" by Arthur Evans

"Witchcraft and the Gay Counterculture" by Authur Evans

Any of the later works of Malcolm Boyd (a gay Episcopal priest and writer)
in particular "Take off the Masks".

Matthew Fox -- in particular "Original Blessing" (which is a good outline
of his theology) -- he is not targeting men in particular but has a
good systhesis (admittedly in a Christian context.)

There is a lot to be said for mythology, though I personally prefer
Joseph Campbell or the Brother's Grimme over Robert Bly and the 
"mythopoetic" bunch.

Readings on the Mediterainan/Hellenistic mystery religions has some
merit to remind us of our other western roots -- I can't lay hands
on a good book to cite this moment.

I wonder about male mystics/authors like Alan Watts, Thomas Merton, Miester
Echart, Baba Ram Das (Richard Alpert) -- how many succeed in speaking 
in a distinctive voice *as a man* (not as a one attempting to deny/transcend
being a man). I don't know but it might be worth looking.


-- 
 Albert Lunde         | Interfaith  |     *Y*Y*      "A branch on the
 Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu |  Bisexual   |      *Y*        tree of life"
 alunde@nuacvm.bitnet |  Feminist   |.......|.........................
From: krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Wicca and the SCA
Date: 13 Sep 92 13:54:50 GMT
Organization: The Meltdown - A Team Star BBS

In article <7560@monmouth.edu>, c1741@moncol.monmouth.edu (MICHAEL CARSON)
writes:
>In article <wJ7uqB4w165w@brewich.hou.tx.us> donal@brewich.hou.tx.us (Donal)
>writes:
>>
>>Huzzah! Well said, Peter. I must vociferously agree with all of the above.
>>My original design for my arms, I will not bore you with the blazon (if I
>>could even remember it), centered around a rack of stags horns and a
>>'plate', or full moon. It was refused for being to blatantly 'Pagan'. I do
>>not think I need make any more comment than that.

>       If the org is trying to be true to a time period when it was a 
>dangerous thing to disply pagan symbols, it is probably better that they
>do it by not allowing the symbology to be used, rather than following the
>actual methods of the Church.  

Too true...

>       On the other hand, if the org is NOT trying to be historically
>accurate, or if the individual is representing a historically accurate
>person from within the time-frame of the SCA, then the banning of pagan
>symbology is silly.  

Well, also a thing to keep in mind is that the SCA frowns BIG TIME on magic
used in battles to strengthen your armor or to help knock down your opponent,
which probably has a big figuring in the policy as well...

+--------------------------------------------------+-------------------------+
|Krikket              | krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us | I'll *LEGALLY* ordain   !
|a.k.a Doug Krick     | Team Star Charter Member   | anyone, no questions    !
|Data # 708/665-9732  | #include<std.disclaimers>  | asked for just $5!      !
+--------------------------------------------------+-------------------------+
| From the makers of "IBM Made Easy" is "Cray-2 Simulations On your VIC-20"  |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: donal@brewich.hou.tx.us (Donal)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Hazel Eyes
Date: Sun, 06 Sep 92 20:52:34 CDT
Organization: The Brewer's Witch BBS, +1 713 272 7350, Brewich.Hou.TX.US

gerda@brewich.hou.tx.us (Gerda Thunarsson) writes:

> lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) writes:
> > Hey Donal, can we start a "Hazel Eyes" group.  Seems when I
> > look in the mirror I see these "Hazel Eyes" staring back at
> > me.  
> 
>  
> what the hell color is hazel, anyway?  is that anything like chartruese?
>  
> what happened to blue, green, grey etc....
>  

Hazel is half green and half brown. Some are green on the outside edge, and
some are green on the inside edge, but both variants are Hazel.

And.... hazel is the only correct color for the eyes of true Witches! :D


--------------------
Donal, SysAdmin of The Brewer's Witch BBS -- +1 713 272 7350
(Internet) donal@brewich.hou.tx.us  (Work) bill%pssi@lobster.hou.tx.us
(CIS) 76460,1443 
(SCA) Ld. Donal Dubh, IC of Dun Bruddair, B of the Stargate, K of Ansteorra
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino)
Subject: FAQ on Pagan Bookstores
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 01:24:00 GMT

Would someone like to create a FAQ listing good sources for books
and other things for various cities.  People could write in for
their city. 

I would do it, but I don't think I know enough about netting to
do it properly.  However it would be good.

We might want to do the same thing for books, and "what is 
paganism" etc.  I think creating some FAQ's for this group
would be a good idea.

If someone is willing to tell me how to do it I would be willing
to give it a shot.

Tammy
From: key@soda.berkeley.edu (peter li'ir key)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Favorite Bible Verses
Date: 5 Sep 1992 00:54:24 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley, CS Undergraduate Association
NNTP-Posting-Host: soda.berkeley.edu

In article <920904235843_70253.2621_CHC108-2@CompuServe.COM> 
	70253.2621@CompuServe.COM (Chris Colvin) writes:

[exceding annoying dogma]

go away.

what care i what the bible says?  it is a much editted bowlderdized
abbridged and mangled document.  it belongs to a time and place
that no longer exists.  its morals are out dated and i dare say
primitive.

i question its veracity.
i question its 'truth'.
i question its 'deity'.
i question its sincerity.
i question those who would speak for it.
i question its 'interpretation'.

peter li'ir key, who finds those who claim to have the TRUTH incredible
key@soda.berkeley.edu
From: PA142138@utkvm1.utk.edu (Nancy Proctor)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Republicans & Propaganda
Date: 4 Sep 92 13:51:31 GMT
Organization: The University of Tennessee, Knoxville

In article <MAD.92Sep3125234@spirit.spirit.clearpoint.com>
mad@spirit.spirit.clearpoint.com (Michael Davis) writes:

>
>Glad to have come to an agreement with you.
>
>Rereading the original post after your reply to mine, it does seem a
>little clearer.  Conveying proper emotional tone on a screen is a bit
>difficult, and good communication requires effort at both ends.  I got
>lazy on my end, and decided to assume instead of ask.  I hope now that
>a little bit of my karmic burden has been lifted.  Thanks for the
>lesson (no smiley).
>
>Blessings and Humility
>
>--
>-mad
>
>Michael A. Davis		mad@spirit.clearpoint.com
>
>Clearpoint Research Corp. / 135 Parkwood Drive / Hopkinton, MA 01738
>


Thanks,  I'm glad we came to an understanding privately and now publicly.
Blessings and have a great weekend,
Nancy


///////////////////////////////
Nancy Josephine Proctor . . . . PA142138@UTKVM.UTK.EDU

"It is not the answer that enlightens, but the question."
                                 Eugene Ionesco

////////////////////////////// . . .
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: txdv1@isuvax.iastate.edu (Angela KAY Rolling)
Subject: re: pagan self-defense
Reply-To: txdv1@isuvax.iastate.edu
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 20:21:30 GMT

It is good to expose your children to what guns are and can do. If they
WANT to learn to use the gun them teach them whin there old enufe and be
sure that they understand safty. If they do not want to learn dont make
them. My father in sisted that we all learn how to shoot his guns. I have
never liked even being around a gun that was being fiered. If a child is old
enufe to learn they are old enufe to know if they want to learn.

ELF-KIN
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: hexmoon@cs1.bradley.edu (Brett Cloud)
Subject: updates please
Keywords: CoG
Organization: Bradley University
Date: 14 Sep 92 01:09:18 GMT

I'm asking for any availible information (recent vintage perferred) on
the Covenent of the Goddess, aka CoG.  I'd especially like any info on
a neat lady named Grey Cat.  I've tried to connect up with her, but
all I have is that she is connected with the CoG, possibly as a VP.

Also, while I don't have the pleasure of knowing  Aidan A. Kelly, we
seem to have a mutual friend, who asked me to test the waters concerning
some controversy he may be experiencing.  I've yet to read his book that
seems to have sparked it.  My friend said she'd let me read it after she
was done reading it.  The title and the exact nature of the controversy
escape my recall at the moment.

I'd like to have any information anyone might have concerning either of
these questions, general  or specific.  I offer both apologies for the
sketchiness of these requests as well as advance thanks for any posted
or emailed responses I get.

                 hexmoon aka Brett

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: Favorite Bible Verses
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
	<1992Sep10.171730.21071@csus.edu> <2AAFA451.14004@news.service.uci.edu>
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 04:01:33 GMT

<about Paul, father of the brand of Xtianity that won in the West>

In article <2AAFA451.14004@news.service.uci.edu> 
cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>Even then, I thought it wasn't a vision of Jesus so much as a vision of
>a crucifix that said above it, "In this sign, conquer."  I'm not sure
>what popular opinion has it at, though . . . as much as popular opinion
>can mean when discussing a person who likely as not never even existed. 

Did Jesus exist? Well, first problem is that the real name is Yeshua or
Joshua. I think a lot of Xtians are gonna be in trouble when they go to
Heaven and say, "I was a believer in Jesus", and Yeshua says, "What did
you say"? Kind of like asking if Paul ever existed, that's also a common
name so the trick is to find THE Paul you are looking for. But there
is some evidence that THE Yeshua existed and it's kind of like Monty
Python's Life of Brian, more or less. Did you know that the original
title of that film was gonna be Life of Jesus? But they soon found out
that it would not play in the US with that title. Yah now, isn't it
interesting that in English, hardly anyone names there kid Jesus, but it
is common in Spanish, just as Madonna is common in Italian. G, what
could that mean?
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino)
Subject: Amerindian board (was Re: How many....)
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 00:25:00 GMT

>  From the Amerindian board ...
> 
>  How many reconstructionist traditionalists does it take to change
>a light bulb?
> 
>  None.  When it is dark out, that is because it is night.
>Go to bed.

Amerindian board?  What's it's name?  I'd like to take a look.

Tammy
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: pst@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Peter Stephen Thomas Iii)
Subject: Re: Men's Mysteries
Summary: we need to start somewhere! 
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 17:27:42 GMT

After following the "men's mysteries" thread for a while, I think a general
consensus <as much as any can be reached thru the Net> that male mysteries
are needed.  The question then becomes, where to start?

I think a appropritate place would be with rites of passsage from boy to
manhood.  

To digress for a moment, it is my opinion the lack of a "rite of passage" for
males in US culture is a major cause for anti-social behavior.  

For women, there is a clear, physical sign that she is no longer a girl, but
now she is growing into a mature, women: the onset of menstruation.  

For males there is no clear sign.  Worse yet, our culture doesn't provide any
way of marking that change clearly.  Legally, when we turn 18, we're an
adult, but it isn't indicated in any clear fashion.

IMHO, young men going out, joining gangs, getting drunk, engagin in other
such behavior is their way of saying:  this is how I prove myself, this is
how I show I'm an adult now.  

Back on topic.  I think the first thing we need to address as a men's mystery
is the idea of what it is to become a man and the responsibilities that go
with it.

Peter Thomas

-- 
"I'll lose my beard when they shave it from my cold, dead face!"

Quote from the Razor's Anonymous Handbook
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Favorite Bible Verses
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 10 Sep 92 19:38:57 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.171730.21071@csus.edu> altheimm@nextnet.csus.edu (Murray Altheim) writes:
>In article <1992Sep10.154615.27996@linus.mitre.org> m23364@mwunix (James Meritt) writes:
>>In article <8SEP199221092286@jane.uh.edu> lib1p@jane.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) writes:
>>}>Paul a deciple of Christ said
>>}
>>}Sorry Chris, I have to go against you on this one.  Paul may have
>>}called himself a disciple of Christ, but he never even met Christ
>>}much less studied under him.
>>
>>Good try.  The claim is that Saul met him on the road to the D place.
>
>I suggest reading your bible. He did not meet Christ in the flesh, but
>through an vision. 

Even then, I thought it wasn't a vision of Jesus so much as a vision of
a crucifix that said above it, "In this sign, conquer."  I'm not sure
what popular opinion has it at, though . . . as much as popular opinion
can mean when discussing a person who likely as not never even existed. 

Blessings,
Janis 

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: wmathews@ducvax.auburn.edu
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: For Sandra Fee (Sorry to waste bandwidth)
Date: 8 Sep 92 20:38:04 GMT

Sorry to waste bandwidth with this, folks, but:

Sandra, I have lost your email address, and I need to give you some important
information regarding the Gathering of the Tribes!

Please email me!

Wendelin
wmathews@ducvax.auburn.edu
 
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: karches@utdallas.edu (Tom Karches)
Subject: Re: Canada (was: Re: Freedom of Religion as well as everything else)
Organization: Univ. of Texas at Dallas
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 03:32:30 GMT

In article <2AA6F854.20712@news.service.uci.edu> cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
>In article <1992Sep4.041057.13459@sfu.ca> guay@fraser.sfu.ca (Tim Guay) writes:
>>In article <3SEP199217294267@rosie.uh.edu> lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) writes:
>>>In article <1992Aug31.220149.8878@samba.oit.unc.edu>, shava@hermes.oit.unc.edu (Shava Nerad Averett) writes...
>>>>Gee, I have a brother in Bellingham, WA...  I really like Vancouver.  Anyone
>>>>wanna look into a pagan diaspora to BC if the elections go badly in November?
>>>> 
>>>>/* almost serious, but wish I weren't */
>>
>>As a Canuck I think so... While this place is not perfect it is better in
>>some ways than the States.
>
>[a bunch of things that are making Canada sound better and better] 
>
>>I won't bore you any more. Like I guess I'm bit of a Canadian patriot. eh!
>
>With what you just said, you have every right to be. 
>
>>Peace be with you
>>	Tim the Canadian
>
>Lucky bastard,
>Janis the Dissatisfied
>

I have had the fortune to visit Canada 5 times in the last 2 1/2 years.
I found the people to be very friendly and willing to speak their mind.

And one of the best parts : their elections are only about 8 weeks long,
start to finish, not the 2 year marathons we have here!

The cities are exceptionally clean and families bring their kids into
the city at night. What a concept!

Vancouver was my favorite, with Calgary and Ottowa not far behind.

Lucky is right,
Tom the Pissed Off

I wouldn't mind moving there at all.


-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom Karches          |"If rap music had been around when I was a kid,
karches@utdallas.edu | I would have become a musician instead of a politician."
karches@holonet.net  '-------------------------------------- Richard Nixon
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: a Time magazine essay (long!)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 7 Sep 92 19:10:30 GMT

It's in the Sept. 7th edition of Time magazine, and it's written by a
Barbara Ehrenreich.  I can't type it in since I'm not okayed to do so,
but I'll give you a few samples:

 . . . John Adams once described the Judeo-Christian tradition as "the
most bloody religion that ever existed" . . .

Jefferson was a renowned doubter, urging his nephew to "question with
boldness even the existence of a God."

Abe Lincoln, the patriarch of their [Republican] party, did not, according
to his law partner of 22 years, believe in a personal God, and refused
to join a church, stating, "When you show me a church based on the
Golden Rule as its only creed, then I will unite with it." (Makes me
wonder what he would have done if confronted with "An it harm
none . . . "  Might we have had our first Pagan president?)

[The Founding Fathers] were deeply concerned, as Adams wrote, that
"government shall be considered as having nothing more mysterious or
divine than other arts or sciences."

Ulysses S. Grant, another Republican, exhorted his countrymen to "Keep
the church and state forever separate," and strongly opposed the use of
nay public money to support parochial schools -- as proposed in the 1992
Republican platform.

I can't type any more without risking recriminations for doing it
without permission, but since these are quotes from other people, I
think I'm safe.  MAkes you wonder what country Geordie Bush is talking
about when he says he wants to be its president, duzzint it?

Blessings,
Janis  
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: corun@access.digex.com (Corun MacAnndra)
Subject: Re: pagan self-defense
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 22:23:11 GMT

OK, I've held off long enough. ;-)

There's nothing quite so disturbing to a criminal breaking into a dark
house as hearing the sound of a pump action shotgun being cocked. Not to
mention that the average untrained shootist has a better chance of stopping
the wouldbe criminal with one shot of a shotgun, preferably one with a 
short barrel, than with any handgun. My 9mm Barretta 9F holds 15 rounds in
the clip, but if I had to grab something quick, I'd go for a sawed off
pump 12 guage. I don't have one, so it's a moot point.

BTW, I loved Linda Hamilton in Terminator 2. You gotta admire a small
woman that can one hand cock a riot gun. ;-) Ka-chunk!

Finally, I firmly believe that self defense, like religion and sex, is
a personal issue. I won't presume to give anyone advice on how they should
defend themselves. I have my ways, but they may not be someone else's.
Think about Switzerland's lack of a crime rate due to the fact that everyone
(or at least the males, I don't know about the women), is required by law
to serve a term in the military, and they get to keep their weapons. Every
home has someone trained to use the assault rifles and such that exist in
every home. I do believe that if they outlaw guns, only criminals will have
them. Some are already better than the local police can afford. Ain't Utopia
grand?

Cynically but still hoping for peace,

-- 
===========================================================================
    Corun MacAnndra     |      But what if this hadn't been
  Dark Horde by birth   |        a rhetorical question?
    Moritu by choice    |                            C. Nelson
Newsgroups: alt.pagan