From: francis@mpl.ucsd.edu (Francis C Felizardo)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.filipino
Subject: Re:Chinese Filipino kidnappings (1/2)
Date: 5 Nov 1992 18:07:09 GMT
Organization: Scripps Institution of Oceanography
NNTP-Posting-Host: kiko.ucsd.edu

From: lewc@oakhill.sps.mot.com (Lew Chua-Eoan)

>First of all, I believe a distinction should be made between military 
>abuse in areas hostile to military presence like negros, etc... versus 
>the extortion, murder, and rape of a minority due to ethinic background.

Not unless you believe that these abuses are limited to places like Negros. 
Police and military abuse happens/ed in the Metro Manila area also. If 
Metro Manila is considered hostile to military presence, we might as well 
say that for the whole nation in which case a distinction is unnecessary.

     - stuff deleted on criminals impersonalizing their victims -

>  Their heinous crimes are committed in malls, within the households of their
>victims, in the villages and provinces, during family get-togethers, and 
>parties, and in the middle of populated thoroughfares in broad daylight. 
>People are singled out due to their enthnicity. 

If you are referring to the CF kidnappings, they are singled out on the 
basis of their ethnicity *and* economic status. My wife and I just got 
together with two CF friends from college who were vacationing here. I 
asked them if they and their CF friends are at all worried that they could 
become kidnapping victims. They said they're not because they aren't rich. 
As was pointed out earlier, it is believed that rich CF families would 
rather pay the ransom than report it to the police and this has made them 
very attractive kidnap victims.

If you are referring to crimes the CF community has experienced in general, 
I still argue that non-CFs have also been preyed on in malls, villages, 
provinces, family get-togethers, parties and public thoroughfares in broad 
daylight. This is not a uniquely CF experience.

>This is unlike the situation in
>economically depressed provincial states like negros where popular enmity
>and revolutionary tendencies against the government are born out of economic
>depression and frustration over the obvious inequities in society, and 
>where abuse of civilians is in some respect military reaction
       ----- -- --------- -- -- ---- ------- -------- --------
>to the apparent hostile attitude of the populace at large.
 -- --- -------- ------- -------- -- --- -------- -- -----

The dimensions of military and police abuse in the Philippines is more 
complex than you suggest. I have been to a beer hall where a police  
officer got drunk and threatened to beat up his beer buddies. 
Contractors and construction engineers I know (myself included) have been 
approached by policemen asking for 'lagay'. In one project in Batangas, 
laborers who refuse to share part of their wages get beaten up. We and 
they were not necessarily hostile to the police. All we wanted to do was 
mind our own business and be left alone. Police and military abuse is not 
limited to NPA-influenced and controlled territory.

>        Yes, you could say racism happens everywhere in the world but the
>plurality of these racist acts does not justify their abuse.

I am not saying that. As I said, I agree that crime is a problem and it has 
to be solved. It is not a uniquely CF experience.

   - stuff deleted on Ramos, EDSA 1986 and CF support -

>        It could also be argued that the increased media attention given by
>the press, both local and abroad (- the current situation has made it
>to the pages of the New York Times, among other news sources), is wholly
>valid.  The increasing violence which constitutes your empathic "WAVE" 
>quotation is real. (This escalation can be corroborated and I know to be
>true!) 
>It could be argued that this escalation in violent crime is due inpart to the
>ineffective actions taken by the present administration (- the construction
>of the PCC does not make the governments actions effective, only results 
>validate the effectiveness and resolve of instituted policies,) and the media
>coverage high-lighting the impunity with which the criminal pertetrate their
>attacks.  Both elements help to further fuel violence.

Part of the problem is also that events in the Philippines are considered by 
the international media newsworthy when it is sensational in nature. Most of 
what we read from say UPI is a litany of news reports on the kidnapping 
problem, the CPP insurgency, the MNLF, the Marcos family. It has gotten to 
a point where 'no news is good news.' If our whole understanding and 
exposure to American society is limited to viewing episodes of Miami Vice, 
then we would be led to believe that American society is a drug-oriented 
society that is overrun by drug gangs and corruption and the police are 
fighting a losing battle against it.

   - old stuff deleted on Lew's allegation that the Ramos program is 
     ineffective and inept due to politicking to the detriment of the 
     CF community -

>discussion continued:
>"The Ramos government is publicly abhorred by each new act of
>extrotion, rape, and murder inflicted upon the Filipino-Chinese
>community, but its actions to safeguard these very citizens are non-
>existent, or at best woefully inadequate......"
                ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^
>I was suggesting that whatever is in place is inadequate and almost
>non-existent.

I still have not seen you make a strong case for either. How does frequency 
of CF kidnapping compare in October and in May (before Ramos took over)? 
How many kidnap rings has the government busted? How many criminals have 
been captured or killed? How many victims have been released without paying 
ransom in October? How many in May?

If you can cite stats on these that support your argument, then you can 
make the case that indeed the program is ineffective. But just because you 
or I say so doesn't make it so.

>>In appointing Estrada as crime czar, Ramos accorded him full powers in 
>>acting on behalf of the President. The crime czar job is a cabinet level 
>>appointment and like all cabinet secretaries, his actions are considered 
>>actions of the president. He has all the resources available to the president
>>to carry out his specific mandate.
>So have these Presidential powers help him out in his legal battles? 
                                                       ----- -------
>These broad powers seem pretty tame in his battles with the courts?
>(I was suggesting that the conspirators use of the courts has effectively
                                                               -----------
>negated legal resources granted to him by the President.  So what 
 ------- ----- ---------
>sort of power does Estrada really have?)

Unless you tell me which legal battles you are referring to, I cannot 
respond to these questions. Details, details. Last time I read the news, 
I got the impression that many of the arrested kidnappers and their 
associates are in jail.

>>>It seems odd that such a difficult job was given to the ex-mayor of San 
>>>Juan. 
>>who is also the vice president, a long-time politician, the scion of a 
>>political family, a former senator, a popular figure with a tough as nails 
>>can do image, and yes a successful town executive. Estrada is no 
>>lightweight. 
>I agree, he's no neophyte politician, but nobody said anything about his 
>not being a capable politician.  We we're argueing about his appointment
>as a law enforcement figure by Ramos -  "a politican does not a 
>(effective) Crime Czar make".

Being a good politician is not a disqualification either. As I have said 
before, many pundits thought he had what it takes to do the job. You seem 
to suggest that Ramos effectively conned Estrada into taking the job to 
be his scapegoat. Obviously, Estrada and his advisers didn't think they 
were being used as scapegoats. Estrada could have refused the job if he 
felt he wasn't up to it or if he felt that he was being used by Ramos.

   - stuff deleted on General/Mayor Lim -

>>Maybe. However, Alfredo Lim was elected Mayor of Manila and from what I 
>>understand, he wants to keep that position. 
>It is my opinion that if the president really wanted to put an end to these
>criminal acts he would use the resources at his disposal to do so. I believe
>that people like Alfredo Lim would be interested in assiting the presidents
>policy if the chance presented itself.
>No. He does not have to quite his functional role as Mayor of Manila. In 
>fact, actions on Lim's part would be is in accord with his role as
>Mayor of Manila.

Mayor Lim HAS his own anti-crime task force which works with Estrada's PACC. 
As mayor, peace and order in his jurisdiction is an important responsibility.
Although Lim is not the crime czar, he is also working on the crime problem.

>>No. He is the president of the country. Although crime is a big problem 
>>in his administration, there are other problems that are at least as 
>>important, e.g., the economy, jobs, the communist insurgency, the Muslim 
>>separatist movement, foreign relations, etc. The crime job is best left 
>>to someone with one specific responsibility - crime. 
>Yes, he is president of the country. And no, he does not have to quite
>his job as president of the country.  In his law and order presidential
>campaign he promised to get the country inorder in a "100 days". He ran
>on a campaign to erradicate crime he should stick to his guns.

But when we were talking about people who should be the crime czar, you wrote:

>>        But the most obvious choice would of course be the President
Himself,
>>he was a four star general in the AFP and commander at one time of the 
>>metropolitan police force. 

All I'm saying is that Ramos cannot be the crime czar because he has other 
responsibilities. The crime czar job was created by Ramos to specifically 
address this problem. And although you obviously disagree, he thought, as 
many people did, that Estrada was the best person for the job.

>>>He knows his subordinates and when rumour spreads
>>>in the lower echelons of his commission (or previous commission) it doesn't
>>>escape his ears. 
>
>>Do you know this for a fact?
>
>Yes. (Indisputable!)

Then why was he unable to prevent all these coup attempts? If nothing 
escapes his ears, why did these coup attempts go as far as destroying the 
Department of National Defense Headquarters in Camp Aguinaldo? Why did he 
allow the rebels to bomb Malacanang Palace? Why did he allow the rebels to 
commandeer air force planes during the early hours of the last 
coup? Why did he allow the rebels to control Camp Aguinaldo, Villamor and 
Mactan AF bases? Why did he not know that the rebels were going to retreat 
into Makati and occupy the hotels and commercial buildings? Why did he let 
his emissary to Col./Gov. Aguinaldo get ambushed and why did 
let him escape? Why did he allow so many of the people who are loyal 
to him die? Why did he allow the rebels to advance so much that the US felt 
they had to intervene to save the Philippine government?
You claim that you have indisputable proof that nothing escapes Ramos but 
there is so much evidence to the contrary. Like I said, just because you 
say so doesn't make it so.

   - stuff deleted -

>Yes, but he was able to stop all seven (or eight..) of the coup attempts.
>That is a pretty good score - "a perfect score". He may not of had absolute
                                                  -- --- --- -- --- --------
>control of the AFP and INP then, but the resources under his command were
 -------
>enough to quell any uprising. It could also be argued that he has
>more of his men in place now then ever before. 
>Now that you mentioned it, I believe he did stop a couple of these coups
>before they even got violent.

Fine. You do agree with me that although most of the AFP and INP are loyal to 
the government, perhaps even Ramos in particular, he does not have absolute 
control. Then you must also agree with me that the people he does not 
control can work to try to undermine the Ramos administration.

>>>In fact, the activities of the PCC is well covered by the Philippine media. 
>>>I wouldn't call the administration's program nonexistent.
>>
>>Ok. Ineffective.
>>
>>Again, a BIG difference. Although I think the effectiveness of the program 
>>is argueable, the existence is not.
>
>Again, this was not the arguement which I was trying to make.
>Ditto (repost of initial statement).

Great! Then all that's left for you to do is to back up your claims with 
evidence. How does the Ramos government crime program compare with that 
previous to his taking over? Show us the stats that led you to that 
conclusion.

   - stuff deleted on politics -

>Yes, the only thing that stands between them is politics - "personality"
>politics RP style, as you pointed out.
>I was using the fact to suggest that politicians are politicians, and
>Estrada being in the opposition does not make him more lovable in
>the eyes of Ramos.  We have a coalition government - "a coalition
>government, and hardly a confluence of personal interests".

I don't really understand your point here. When you wrote:

>It is the belief of many, that the presidency holds the key to this
>present series of violence, with the oppositional vice-presidency and
>the fate of the Filipino-chinese community acting as unwilling pawns in 
>a vicious drama. 

you gave me and many readers I talked to the idea that there was a struggle 
between Ramos and Estrada and that they were using the CF community as 
pawns. Ramos was ignoring the CF kidnapping problem while Estrada was 
doing something about it. I was rebutting that view. I was saying that 
it is in the interest of both Ramos and Estrada that the kidnapping and 
crime problem be resolved satisfactorily because both of their butts are 
on the line on this issue. Contrary to the statement above, Ramos and 
Estrada are both on the same side on this issue.

>>You keep saying that the Ramos administration is sitting on its butt while 
>>Estrada is doing everything else. What you keep ignoring is that regardless 
>>of where they stood in the last elections, Estrada and Ramos are now part 
>>of the same administration. Crime busting is Estrada's job in the Ramos 
>>government.
>
>Not quite.  I was suggesting that the Ramos administration may be using
>Estrada as a scapegoat.  Estrada maybe trying his best but odds are stacked
>against his favor.  He may not be a neophyte when it comes to politicing, but
>when it comes to battling internal military and police conspiracies he may
>just be out gunned and out manuvered.  
>
We both seem to agree that Estrada is not a neophyte politician. Fine. But 
if he did believe that he was not capable of doing the crime job, why did 
he take it? Why did his advisers let him take it? If he feels as though Ramos 
is just using him, why did he take the job or why is he not quitting? If he 
feels that Ramos is denying him the resources to do the job right, why is 
he not quitting? Why is he not saying anything about this? One does not have 
to be a seasoned poltician to see through all this. 

>>I stressed his trouble with the courts
>>due to his exploits as a "crime czar" and the escallating violence in his own
>>district to support that assumption.

There was ONE kidnapping near his house in San Juan. One case does not 
constitute escalation. In addition, you keep making cryptic references to 
his court troubles but I have not seen you elaborate on them. Please do.

>>If you are giving Estrada credit for saving the young girl, then you should 
>>also give the Ramos administration credit because Estrada was doing the job 
>>Ramos appointed him to. Perhaps the PCC is not as ineffective as you say 
>>after all.
>
>Your right on this point. Ramos should get credit for saving the young
>lady, but on the whole, Ramos' program has been ineffective...countless
>others have been molested and a few others have died, and the crimes
>continue and have increased in frequency.  
 -------- --- ---- --------- -- ---------

Please cite your stats and source.

You wrote:

>Only recently has effective action taken place under the leadership 
>of Vice-President J. Estrada.

also

>This doesn't take away from the fact that it was Estrada's boys..his
>organization of people that rescued the young lady.

also

>" Hey! he [Estrada] was doing a 
>good job or trying too...why did you ask him to step down?" 

What I don't understand is that on the one hand, you are claiming Estrada 
is doing a good job and at the same time claiming that he is incapable 
of doing the job and that the crime program is ineffective.
It seems to me that you started out with the assumption that Ramos is 
shafting the CF community. Then you tried to present all evidence that 
is consistent with this assumption. Any evidence contrary to this was 
thrown out. At the time you wrote you first post, you thought Estrada 
was opposing Ramos and tried to paint him in the best light, i.e., that 
his program is effective. Then when confronted with the knowledge that 
he is managing Ramos' program, you tried to backpedal on this assessment 
and minimized his accomplishment.

>>>I know it's no consolation but non-Chinese Filipinos have been subjected to 
>>>this much longer and more often than CFs have.
>      ^^^^ ^^^^^^ 
>Not true.  I believe hostilities against the Filipino-Chinese started
>shortly after they first settled with in the islands. 

Well, the hostilities between the indios started well before the Chinese 
and the Spaniards even came to the Philippines. When the Spaniards arrived, 
they pitted one region against the other. The guardia sibil, the forerunners 
of the Philippine Constabulary was used to suppress the natives.

>And if you were 
>speaking about abductions per se, this has been going on for as long 
>as there has been a Filipino-Chinese community
>in the Philippines...often sporadic at times...more frequent at other 
>times.

Well if we're talking about abductions per se, nonCFs have been subjected 
to this too. Once again I reiterate that I'm not saying this makes it OK, 
I'm just saying that this is a problem that both CF and nonCF have to 
solve. We're in this together.

>--- delete insensitivity issue ----
>
>Apology accepted.

Thank you.

>--- deleted agreement that my arguement is weak -------

>I agree entirely.  Biases and optimisim should not sway our understanding,
>and if we are to aquire this new understanding we should objectively look
>at the possibilities as long as they are feasable.

I'm glad we both agree on this.

>>>>But he also won with the support of many CFs, not the least of which is 
                                      ^^^^ ^^
>>>Not as many Filipino-Chinese as you think and definitly not a majority.
                                               ------------------------
>>Cite statistics and your source please. 
>Look at the Filipino-Chinese press 
>publications (circulated within the community) previous to and after the 
>elections. They which suggest this majority.

Lew, the way the game is usually played, the burden of proof is on the 
person making the assertion. If you have exit polling data that shows 
that what you say is so, then I welcome it. But just because you say so 
doesn't make it so.

>>From my understanding of Philippine elections, Chinese Filipinos do not 
>>vote as a block.
>Then you may know very little about Filipino-Chinese politics in the
>Philippines.

I guess not. If you have studies that show me that it's otherwise, then I 
would be more than happy to be educated by you. My impression on  
how the CFs affect the electoral dynamics in the Philippines is from 
conversations with my CF friends and from Pepe Miranda's class in 
Poli Sci 11. Pepe Miranda is the head of the Social Weather Station, 
arguably the premiere polling organization in the Philippines.
If your evidence that CFs vote as a block is based solely on your own 
personal impressions rather than studies, then I argue that your knowledge 
is not any more valid than mine.

>>>Corazon Aquino.
>>Ofcourse! How many times did he save her presidency? Seven or so...i lost
>>count. Yes, Corazon Cojuanco Aquino owed him a debt of gratitude.
>>Yes and Corazon Aquino is Chinese Filipino and so is her family and I 
>>suspect she has a following in the CF community. Let's face it. Ramos would 
>>never have won without her endorsement.
>Cory Aquinos being labeled a Filipino-Chinese is hardly fitting.  Yes,
>her great-grandfather or great-great grandfather was a entrepeneur with
>the sername "Co" from Fujian China who found prosperity in Central Luzon
>region but she and the current generation of Cojuangcos are about 6-12 %
>Chinese.  

You did not give me any argument as to why Cory's generation is any less 
Chinese. If you yourself practice racism against your own people, how can 
you validly argue that racism against you is wrong?

>And as i said in a previous posting, one could take up the 
>agruement that she and her present family (Danding included) are more
>within the majority then within the minority.

When a Chinese immigrant decides to adopt the Philippines as his country 
and he is welcomed by the nonCF, does it make him/her any less Chinese 
Filipino? For someone who has taken pains to argue that Filipino-Chinese 
is the right term because that means you are Filipino first, this seems 
to me like a major contradiction.

>  But taking this issue aside** and assuming, as you propose, that she is 
>a prominent member of the Filipino-Chinese community does not mean that 
>she had a large following in the Filipino-Chinese community.  

Well judging from several of my CF friends who supported Cory Aquino, I 
do get the impression that there were many CFs who supported her. Like I 
said, if you have polling data to the contrary, then I welcome it.

   - stuff deleted -

>   What I was trying to say was that her support may have counted very
>little in a two-sided election.  

When did you say that? And we never had a two sided election so why is 
this relevant?

>   But that is not to say that it did not count in a close and
>muti-partisan election.  So where does this lead us?  Was the Filipino
>Chinese vote important after all?  This is what you were suggesting.

No. In fact I was suggesting that this is not. You said Ramos was punishing 
the CF community for not supporting him. I said I don't believe you were 
right in saying that because 1. I don't believe CFs vote as a block 
(rebut this with stats if you wish) and 2. There are other more identifiable 
groups of people who surely voted against Ramos as a block but were not 
subjected to punishment by the Ramos government.

I gave Cory Aquino as a prominent CF counterexample. I did not mean to 
suggest that Aquino's appeal is primarily to the CF community. She appealed 
to a broad range of the society which is why Mitra and Ramos tried so 
hard to get her support.

>** if you assume President Aquino is a prominent member of the 
>Filipino-Chinese community then you should accept that three
>previous Presidents were also prominent Filipino-Chinese -
>one being a Commonwealth President.

I know Marcos had some Chinese ancestors by intermarriage. I am not familiar 
with the other other two presidents. And yes, if you have Chinese roots and 
you are Filipino, then you are CF. Actually, this also shows how well 
Chinese immigrants have been assimilated into Philippine society. Although 
I can't deny that our differences has led to some racism, ethnic Chinese 
have accomplished more and achieved a greater position in society in the 
Philippines than in most societies where they are a minority - American 
society included.

END OF PART 1
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Francis C Felizardo                             francis@mpl.ucsd.edu
Scripps Institution of Oceanography, 0213	      (619) 534 1085
La Jolla, CA 92093-0213