From: hubey@pilot.njin.net (Hubey)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: Women in Islam
Date: 12 Dec 92 06:25:35 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <1992Dec12.023525.11390@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> lhermi@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Lotfi Hermi) writes:

> Islamic law is not a static entity but a very dynamic one ( or so it used to
> be).  It was so dynamic that it grew to a point that people could no longer 
> handle the variety nad had to put provisions on those claiming to bring about
> new ijtihads (about 13th century) and from that point on people became static
> and Muslim did not produce much in terms of legal or jurisprudence matters 
> although the political grip of Muslim people was strong and firm).  

Ok. It seems that you are saying the the Islamic world had great
thinkers until about the 13th century. That would mean that the 
leaders and the scholars were open minded and willing to criticize
what they thought were ridiculous ideas that some overly
zealous people might have tried to pass off as the way that 
life should be because the Koran said so. If this was the case, then
we would expect at least some writings from that era pertaining to
the attitudes of the intellectual and political leaders of that era
about what life was about and how liberal they were. I'll provide
one below. 


> In traditional as well as in modern schools you can find a wide range of opi-
> nions.  The most important thing is that these opinions by the way laws are
> derived in Islam are not and should not drift from following Quran
and Sunnah.

Now this is where problems start. Sunnah is supposed to fill in the
details of life that the Koran  gave only in broad brush strokes.

And how do we do this ? Of course, it already exists in codified form;
accretians of past n centuries. And how were people who gave this
codified law (Sharia) reach their conclusions ? By reading and
thinking of course. In order to accept that nothing in it can be
wrong and thus should not be changed, we have to accept that
these human beings who produced this were almost godly. They never
made mistakes, and in the infinite wisdom of their brains, they
looked accross the universe and looked forward in time to infinity.
Thus it is valid for every planet in the universe and until the end
of time, when the universe either collapses or keeps expanding
and dies its heat death.

If this is not true, then why is it impossible to say so?

How many people on this net ever said that the Sharia might be
changed? What kind of answers do people who suggest it receive?

It comes in a couple of flavors. They usuall amount to "There are
people who have studied this for N years, so don't get smart, kaffir."

It's a nice Catch-22. If you really did study for N years, they
could still find an old fogey who studied for N+1 years. 

Besides that the whole argument is ridiculous. There are plenty of
people in their 60's and 70's in the USA who have spoken, read
and written in English for many years. But there are many people
in their teens whose Englis is better.

Let's continue.

Here's a little joke. This is an Arab joke and I'll give the source
right after I write it.

A zealous preacher is giving a heated sermon in a mosque. He is
of the type who thinks that there's an Islamic way to do
everything.  He is giving a sermon on the role of cleanliness and
how important it is in the eyes of God. At one point he goes
further and says that the pubic hairs must be clipped no longer
than a grain of barley. At this point, a man who has sneaked 
into the women's side of the mosque dressed as a woman--and is
hiding behind his veil--leans over to his side and whispers to
the woman; "Sister, can you please check mine to see how short it
is?". She reaches down, and shocked, she screams. The preacher 
is elated. "You see, how the words of God have touched her 
heart!" he exclaims. The woman shrieks; "It did not touch my
heart, preacher, it touched my hand."


Now, for all those who want to check, this is from the book
of Ibn Fadlan, who lived sometime around the 10th century.
He belonged to the upper classes and was learned. Furthermore,
by all accounts in the book, he was a pious Muslim. He was
sent as an emissary north--probably to seek an alliance with
the Baskirs. He was apparently also a good friend of the Caliph.

The account of Ibn Fadlan's travels can be found in English.
Anyone who is interested should check the library. I think the
copy I read was written by Crichton.

Now, here's the real question. If learned and pious men at that
time could tell each othere stories like this--and Ibn Fadlan
makes clear that it was a well-known story at the time--during
the Golden Age of Islam, why is it that so many of today's
Islamists are so full of intolerance and closed-mindedness ?

What would happen to a man who told this story (joke) in public
today in Iran or Saudi Arabia ??? What would happen to the man
who wrote this story in a newspaper in those countries?

I'll go even further, has anyone heard anything like this in
an enlightened and Muslim country like Turkey ?

Who's going where ?? Do the people who post continuously about
what Islam means really think that they are pointing in the
direction of the Golden Era of Islam ? 

I don't think so. Many of these people probably would have
had jokes made about them in Baghdad around 900 AD by
people like Ibn Fadlan--maybe even the Caliph.

Let's see how many people call me what kinds of names now ?
-- 

	mark	


   hubey@pilot.njin.net                   hubey@apollo.montclair.edu
 ...!rutgers!pilot!hubey                  hubey@logos.montclair.edu