HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sbuckley@fraser.sfu.ca (Stephen Buckley)
Subject: Re: Why I am an atheist. (long!)
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 06:19:14 GMT

SCOTT C LOCKLIN writes:

>>    had it order to obtain it.	And when one obtains salvation by
>>    grace, his/her life does not become "peachy".  If anything, it
>>    becomes more trying, more difficult, and with more suffering
>>    than there was before.  But these are merely *physical*
>>    manifistations.  God also grants the believer the "peace that
>>    passes all understanding" such that one may have an inner joy
>>    and peace regardless of the external circumstances one faces.
>>    This is the "peachiness" that you refer to.  It is *spiritual*
>>    "peachiness" and not physical "peachiness".  It is this spiritual
>>    power that God gives the believer that gives real meaning to the
>>    statement of Jesus that "...My yoke is easy and My burden light".

>Agreed that it gives you some ease of mind. This is part of the crime
>of christianity; You should never have that peace, you should always
>strive for more. Please, no whining on how much you question your faith, how
>much anguish this causes you. This is the way it should be. It shows that there
>is the remnants of a thinking human being in there.

  i think it is a shame that you see peace and a thinking human being
to be mutually exclusive.

---                          
     Stephen Buckley        /    the meaning of life is the answer
     sbuckley@sfu.ca       /      to God's question in the Bible:
   TrueNorthStrong&Free   /        
      1-800-REALITY      /    "What are you going to do with my Son?"                   
Newsgroups: alt.mythology,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.arts.sf.misc
From: lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino)
Subject: Re: Looking for info on the Sidhe (Celtic Elven myths)
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 23:28:00 GMT

In article <bmo1.714758456@Reggae.CC.MsState.Edu>, bmo1@Reggae.CC.MsState.Edu (Brennan "CrayDeath" O'Keefe) writes...
>Can anybody recommend to me some good books on the Celtic mythology concerning
>the Sidhe?  (Elves, Seileigh/Unseileigh Courts, other Faerie creatures,
>Underhill, etc.)  I'm looking for this info primarily from a fantasy gaming
>point of view, but I'd like info on any sources yoyu can recommend.
> 
>Oh, just for the record, exactly what is the correct pronounciation of "Sidhe"?
> 
>Thanks for any help.
>--
>CrayDeath                     | Ain't much I'm askin', if you want the truth;
>mka Brennan M. O'Keefe        | Here's to the future for the dreams of youth! 
>internet: bmo1@ra.msstate.edu |   -- Queen, "I Want It All"


I'll see what I can dig up for you.  I don't remember any titles
right off the top of my head.

Sidhe is pronounced like "shee".  "Banshee" is a type of sidhe.

==>Tammy<==

LIB1P@jetson.uh.edu

P.S. I don't remember if I posted here or not, but.....
I am willing to dig up info for people.  Just e-mail me.
If it gets to be too much I may have to curtail it, but for
now its no problem.

P.S.S. I work in a library.


Xref: sparky alt.mythology:1751 rec.arts.sf.misc:2812 rec.games.frp.misc:4931
From: jtgst1+@pitt.edu (Judyth T Gibson)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology,rec.arts.sf.misc,rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: (Celtic myths)
Date: 3 Sep 92 20:56:35 GMT
Followup-To: alt.mythology
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

Reading Patricia Kennealy (hope I got the spelling right) I've run 
across "Malen, the goddess of love and war".  I haven't found any
references to her outside of these books.  I think she was also 
referred to as Red Malen; does anyone have any info. on this?

___________________________________
"I've invented this potion, where, when you drink it, you turn into a
homocidal, ax wielding maniac.  It's sort of a cure for not being an 
homocidal ax wielding maniac."
					-The Young Ones

Judy

Xref: sparky alt.mythology:1711 rec.games.frp.misc:4449 rec.arts.sf.misc:2688
From: alisonjw@spider.co.uk (Alison J Wyld)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: Looking for info on the Sidhe (Celtic Elven myths)
Date: 26 Aug 92 09:05:37 GMT
Organization: Spider Systems Limited, Edinburgh, UK.

In article <bmo1.714758456@Reggae.CC.MsState.Edu> bmo1@Reggae.CC.MsState.Edu (Brennan "CrayDeath" O'Keefe) writes:
>Can anybody recommend to me some good books on the Celtic mythology concerning
>the Sidhe?  (Elves, Seileigh/Unseileigh Courts, other Faerie creatures,
>Underhill, etc.)  I'm looking for this info primarily from a fantasy gaming
>point of view, but I'd like info on any sources yoyu can recommend.
>

F. Marian MacNeil's "The Silver Bough", if your library has it.  It
was published in the 50s.

Alison
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: jwtlai@jeeves.uwaterloo.ca (Jim W "GrimJim" Lai)
Subject: Re: ancient germanic myths
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 22:26:40 GMT

In article <lharris.14@upei.ca> lharris@upei.ca (Lora Harris) writes:
>One poster has complained of the sanitization of Grimm's tales.  Sometimes 
>the tales are published with such bad mistranslations that the entire 
>meaning of the story is lost.  For example the story below: I forget whether 
>it was one of Grimm's or Anderson's tales, but it went like this in the 
>version I grew up with.
>
>(paraphrased and shortened).  Poor father and daughter, starving, go to the 
>king to beg for land so that they might farm it and live.  Kind king gives 
>it to them.  Girl digging finds a piece of gold, says "we should tell the 
>king".  Father disagrees, says the king would want a second piece.  The 
>daughter tells the king anyway and the king puts them in jail until they 
>give him a second piece.
>
>	Now I don't know about the rest of you, but I could never make any 
>sense out of this. Why would anyone think there was a second piece of gold 
>buried in a field?

[The poster later found a translation that has mortar and pestle instead of
gold pieces.]

Well, if one takes to more modern schools of interpretation, it could refer
to taxation.  :)  Not all tales are rational.  Sometimes, in being distortions
of earlier versions, it can give insights into the psychology of those who told
the tales.

It is one of the Grimms' Tales.  #94: The Peasant's Clever Daughter.  In my
translation, the girl advises against telling the king about the mortar, but
the father gives it to the king and is imprisoned.  The tale goes on from
there, with the peasant girl turning out to be quite clever indeed.
Newsgroups: alt.mythology,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.arts.sf.misc
From: singley@helix.nih.gov (Erick D. Singley)
Subject: Re: Looking for info on the Sidhe (Celtic Elven myths)
Organization: (National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, MD)
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 17:27:01 GMT

Ah, you see (as I reciently have) whe I go into my VI editor, and don't leave
a space between the 

"Distribution: usa
Organization: (National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, MD)
Keywords:"

 and anything else I write, my first paragraph evaporates.

So I don't do that anymore ;-)

Sorry for the wierdness.
Erick
From: lynx@terapin.com (Debbie Caraway)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Mythos. help sought.
Date: 31 Aug 92 11:58:50 PST
Organization: BBS

I am posting this blind so I apologize if it's not the current discussion.  I
haven't had the chance to catch up here.  Interestingly enough, however, there
was a recent tangent string and I did e-mail several people.

I'm looking for Celtic mythos, legends, tales, preChristian influence or
without (period pieces) suitable for 7th graders.  It's difficult to present a
group justly when iformation is difficult to put together largely because of a
different an unpopular belief system and variuos invasions.  As a kid I
remember a book on Celtic high and low fantasy from Ireland to Ionia, but
that's about all I remember except the little plastic light melted under my
covers and than goodness I didn't start a fire.

Anyways, I'm looking for cultural Celtic myths or legends that would help kids
glean an insight into the people and their belief system also music and art. 
If anyone wants to type up and e-mail me a story it would be greatly
appreciated.  I would need some source info.  Also if you put your name and
area on it as in collected by, I'll include it, if I use it.  The purpose is to
try and present history by looking st the folklore of the people to get a sense
of values and belief systems.  The reason I'm asking for Celtic info. is that
their heritage seems ignored and difficult to piece together.

If that's not your forte' the range is this.  About 450 to 1800 history of
people of the world.  By the way, that's why I was able to comment on that
Aztec question, because the culture was in that time period.  My goal would be
to eventually teach the calss through the stories, belief systems, leaders,
interactions, expression etc. and not use a very biased and in many instances
incorrect text book.  It's for 7th grades (about 11-14 years old).  I'm also
interested in music from different cultures I can play in the background of the
stories.  The CA public schools are getting so bad that the counties are
charging the schools for films.  So I'm learning how to take slides and put my
own stuff together, it just takes a lot of time.  So, I'd probably be
interested in slide dubs of various places.  Anyways, I'm not getting paid any
extra to do this, and I teach all the other subjects as well.  Any help towards
this treasure hunt would be greatfully appreciated.

Thanks for your time.
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: mmussell@fmgu25.intel.com (Morgan Mussell ~)
Subject: Re: (Celtic myths)
Organization: Intel Corporation, Santa Clara, CA USA
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 19:47:01 GMT

>>Morrighu was goddess of War, I believe, and Brigid was goddess of love and
>>death...
>>Stephen

>When speaking about the Celts, is it really accurate to say
>XYZ was god/des of xyz ?  I thought they didn't really have this sort
>of neat 1 to 1 mapping.  

I believe the lack of neat 1:1 mapping is one of the few things about Celtic
beliefs that everybody agrees on.  It is my personal opinion that shapeshifting
is the most characteristic activity of Celtic gods and goddesses.

The original lore of the Celtic tribal cultures was lost when the Romans
exterminated the Druids.  What remains is a patchwork of stories and legends
preserved by troubadors and clerics, amateur scholars, and poets, from
Chrtien de Troyes to Yeats.  What we make of Celtic legend (such as our 
need for 1:1 mapping) probably says more about us than about the Celts.

With that in mind, the most commonly printed (modern) attributions make
the Morrighu or Morrighan a goddess of both war and sexual passion.  This
makes an interesting image for contemplation.  The greeks recognized the
connection in the legend of the affair of Ares and Aphrodite, but here the
_seemingly_ opposite poles are combined in one figure.

Brigid is usually associated with healing, smithcraft, and poetry, the latter
two areas I imagine as transformation and creativity in general.  I have 
never heard of a Celtic diety with the sole attribution of "presiding"
over love.


Morgan Mussell          mmussell@mcd.intel.com 
Xref: sparky alt.mythology:1698 rec.games.frp.misc:4409 rec.arts.sf.misc:2676
From: v076jy2p@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Cosmo Of The Cosmos)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: Looking for info on the Sidhe (Celtic Elven myths)
Date: 25 Aug 92 18:31:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <bmo1.714758456@Reggae.CC.MsState.Edu>, bmo1@Reggae.CC.MsState.Edu (Brennan "CrayDeath" O'Keefe) writes...
>Can anybody recommend to me some good books on the Celtic mythology concerning
>the Sidhe?  (Elves, Seileigh/Unseileigh Courts, other Faerie creatures,
>Underhill, etc.)  I'm looking for this info primarily from a fantasy gaming
>point of view, but I'd like info on any sources yoyu can recommend.

Oh, if somebody sends/posts anything about this subject, please wing a copy to
me. Somebody I know is going to start a campain using that, so I'm tring to come
up with the king of Grigs(sp?), master of amphibians, prince of frogs,
lord of the water sprites.  So any info on water sprites would be more than
welcome.


					-Rob
Newsgroups: alt.mythology,rec.arts.sf.misc,rec.games.frp.misc
From: stv@unislc.uucp (Steve Spencer)
Subject: Re: Looking for info on the Sidhe (Celtic Elven myths)
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 21:09:39 GMT

Matthew D. Goldman (goldman@orac.CRAY.COM) wrote:
: In article <bmo1.714758456@Reggae.CC.MsState.Edu> bmo1@Reggae.CC.MsState.Edu (Brennan "CrayDeath" O'Keefe) writes:
: >Can anybody recommend to me some good books on the Celtic mythology concerning
: >the Sidhe?  (Elves, Seileigh/Unseileigh Courts, other Faerie creatures,
: >Underhill, etc.)  I'm looking for this info primarily from a fantasy gaming
: >point of view, but I'd like info on any sources yoyu can recommend.
: 
: War of the Oaks, Emma Bull.
: It is set in modern day Minneapolis.  Lots of fun.  More fun for
: people who know Minneapolis and St. Paul.
: 
: >Oh, just for the record, exactly what is the correct pronounciation of "Sidhe"?
: 
: I think it is spoken as "She".
: 
: Matt
: -- 
: Matthew Goldman          E-mail: goldman@ferris.cray.com
: Fax: (612) 683-3099                 Work: (612) 683-3061
: "There is nothing wrong with the software that rm won't cure.~
: 		-Arnie Romo
I just finished reading an INCREDIBLE book on the sidhe (pronounced
shee by the way). It is called "Windmaster's Bane". One of the best books 
I have ever read; based entirely on the sidhe, and how they opperate. Their
logic, their morals, and their "rules". 

       _____  _____  _____         _____
      (_____    |    |____  \   /  |____           |\__/\    | | |
      ______)   |    |____   \_/   |____        <___/@ ) \    \|/
						 !!!!!\  /     X
				           ________|  | |______|_
			 	          (\_____!!!!!// ______\_) 
                                                 \____/ /      |
						 __|_|        |
					       ((_______|      |
                                                        
Newsgroups: alt.mythology,rec.games.frp.misc,rec.arts.sf.misc
From: postman@alw.nih.gov (AMDS Postmaster)
Subject: Re: Looking for info on the Sidhe (Celtic Elven myths)
Organization: (National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, MD)
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 18:09:40 GMT

This article was probably generated by a buggy news reader.
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: pvanheus@frodo.cs.uct.ac.za (P A van Heusden)
Subject: Looking for a serious Fantasy discussion group/mailing list
Organization: Computer Science Department, University of Cape Town
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 13:48:49 GMT

I have been on the Net for a while, and have yet to find a group which
discusses current and classic fantasy from a literary point of view, as
opposed to the alt.fan.* groups. I would appreciate it if someone could
point me towards any groups on the Net discussing things like Tolkien,
le Guinn, and other Fantasy authors in general. There are volumes to be
said about this topic, as the literature in libraries shows, why does it 
seem that the Net is silent on this one?

Peter

--
*******************************************************************************
Peter van Heusden              "Thou shalt not kill
CS2 lab, UCT, Cape Town               Kill kill kill!"
pvanheus@frodo.cs.uct.ac.za                    Ministry
From: kbest@doc.novell.com (Karl Best)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Re: Qeutzcoatl
Date: 26 Aug 92 15:40:06 GMT
Organization: Novell, Inc.

In article <16343@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> rlwinter@rosarita.engr.ucdavis.edu  
(Richard Lee Winterstein) writes:
>   Well, I'm not so sure one could say Mormonism was cut out of whole cloth.
> The theory that Native Americans were descended from the Lost Tribes of  
Israel
> pre-dates the publishing of the Book of Mormon.  In fact, there was a Vermont
> minister who wrote a lengthy book on it, and apparently for some time, J.  
Smith
> lived in his vicinity...this came from a rather large critical examination of
> the Book of Mormon, unfortunately I forgot the name of the author.  (At any
> rate, 'mostly wackos' is probably a bit harsh.)
> 
> Rick

There are a number of alternate explanations for the source of the Book of  
Mormon. One of these is that Jospeh Smith, instead of translating the book from  
gold plates given him by an angel, as he claimed, instead plagerized much of it  
from the novel _View of the Hebrews_ written by the minister Ethan Smith. The  
novel's plot was the origin of the Native Americans as descendents of Jews who  
fled Jerusalem, the lost ten tribes stuff. The novel was available in JS's time  
and area, so it is possible that he did read the book, and *if* he wrote the  
BoM rather than translated it it could be possible that he got some of his  
ideas from the novel. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Karl Best                              Far away, across the field
Novell Tech Pubs           ...  __o    the tolling of the iron bell
Provo, Utah  801-429-3428 ..   -\<,    draws the faithful to their knees
kbest@doc.novell.com      ...(_)/(_).  to hear the softly spoken magic spell
karl_best@npd.novell.com                  -Roger Waters, Pink Floyd
From: burtt@crs.cl.msu.edu (Brian Burtt)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Re: ancient germanic myths
Date: 26 Aug 92 05:47:30 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University

bee@ms.uky.edu (Elizabeth Gilliam) writes:

>I am looking to find information on ancient Germanic myths,
>for research I am doing on the background to the nationalist
>movement in Germany after World War I.

>I would appreciate any references to books, magazines, or
>just stuff you read somewhere.
>-- 
>elizabeth a. gilliam: bee@ms.uky.edu
>If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.

An excellent reference book in "Germanic Myths and Legends"
by Donald MacKenzie.

-- Brian Burtt
Undergraduate major in astrophysics, Michigan State University
burtt@crs.cl.msu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: torresce@craft.camp.clarkson.edu (Carlos E. Torres)
Subject: Recommended books?
Summary: Want recommendation of books
Keywords: greek, roman
Organization: Clarkson University
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 14:26:47 GMT

Hi,
	I was wondering if anybody out there could recommend me some books to 
read (that they may have liked alot).  Specifically, I am looking for books in
the greek/roman mythology, which tell stories such as Medusa's death, etc......
I would specifically like books dealing with Zeus and Aphrodite/Venus but 
won't mind any others that people may recommend.  So how about it?  If you
like you can e-mail me, and I'll compose a list and post it.  I'd really 
appreciate this, thanks.
		Mystic

PS  e-mail me at torresce@craft.camp.clarkson.edu
From: rmr@acsu.buffalo.edu (Richard M. Romanowski)
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
Subject: Akkadian sources
Summary: read the post
Keywords: read the post
Date: 31 Aug 92 17:04:37 GMT
Organization: UB


	This is the UB Myth Club, coming to you live and direct...

	Does anybody know where I can get original-language texts in
Akkadian on religion, magic, cosmology, etc.?  The Descent of Ishtar is
partially included in my Akkadian textbook, but it won't keep me
satisfied for long...

	On the Akkadian theme, does anybody have theories on the relation
of Sumerian and Akkadian myth to the East-West split?  I refer to the split
between the Iranian and Indian viewpoints, whereby the West became 
dualistic and the East became monistic...

	Thanks!
Luck
Rick
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: rtsumn01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu
Subject: Re: The Burning Man
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 03:58:42 GMT
Organization: University of Louisville

In article <Btx7J7.98J@nntp-sc.Intel.COM>, culley@sc.intel.com (robert culley) writes:
>   As someone who's about to go out in a desert and burn a giant man made of 
> wood, I thought I'd ask what alt.mythology can tell me about  traditions  
> connected with this activity. I've heard of three, apparently independent 
> traditions, which do this:
> (1) the relatively uninteresting secular tradition of burning political figures 
>  "in effigy"
> (2) the Hindu celebration Dussehra, in which the Burning Man represents
> Ravana, who had kidnapped Rama's wife, Sita. Burning Ravana symbolizes
> Rama's defeat of Ravana, and more broadly the triumph of Good over Evil.
> (3) a Celtic tradition depicted in a movie, "The Wicker Man".  In the film,
> a human sacrifice is caged within the Wicker Man before he's lit. I don't
> trust a 'film adaption' of a ritual very much, so who knows what the
> Celts really did? What did it  mean ?
> 
> Anything to add?
> 
> Bob Culley

I can go into a little detail about the Celts. Yes, they did domething rather
like what you described. They would construct a huge wicker figure and put
within it numerous criminals and animals, and set it on fire to celebrate
Beltane (known to the vulgar as May-Day). I think this may have been done on a
grand scale every five years, and on a small scale (maybe one person?) every
year. This practice was recorded by the Romans:  Julius Caesar and Posidonius,
I believe.

As to the reason for this:  if James Frazer is to be believed, the Druids did
this because they had to do something with all the left-over mistletoe, and
burning it was as good a thing as any. My personal opinion, however, is that
they did it because lighting the fire with sacred oaks would have profaned the
ceremony.

The first paragraph is accurate, to the best of my abilites; the second is not.
I don't think anyone really knows why they did it, since the Celts kept no
written records, and everything we have about them dating from that period was
written by their enemies and conquerors, the Romans. Frazer has, however,
recorded numerous instances of people burning other people symbolically
(apparently it was something of a fad among the peasants); I understand that
his records regarding customs worldwide are somewhat accurate, if the
conclusions he draws from them are not. You may want to seek him out if you are
interested in further information on the subject of burning one's friends; I am
not in the mood to peruse all--what is it, twelve volumes?--at present.

--Semhaza
Newsgroups: alt.mythology
From: tperreau@zia.aoc.nrao.edu (The Mad Scot)
Subject: Re: Looking for info on the Sidhe (Celtic Elven myths)
Organization: National Radio Astronomy Observatory, Socorro NM
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 07:54:11 GMT

Any fairly good books on Irish folktales and mythology will have a lot
of information on the Si, mostly as beings that interacted with
humans.

For more factual information, I highly recommend _Celtic Mythology_ by
Proisin (sp?) MacCanna (I'm at work, and my books are at home -
figures).

For some "soft" information (ie, fantasy books) I recommend the
following books:

Fairey Tale by R. Fiest (very good on the Unseely Court)
Any of the books by Kenneth C. Flint which are retellings of
the various cycles of Irish myths, although his first series
(Riders of the Sidhe, Champions of the Sidhe, and one other with
"Sidhe" in the name) deals with a heavy sci-fi element, and not very
good in my opinion.
The Tain by Kinsella (_The_ reference on the Tain Bo Cuileagh)


-- 
================================================================================
Tony Perreault, High Tech Babysitter & Nanny	tperreau@zia.aoc.nrao.edu
Array Operations, Very Large Array	      All opinions expressed are my
Socorro, NM				        own and not those of NRAO