HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: (old) Question For Rob Levene
Date: 25 Sep 92 03:35:16 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO


           -=> Quoting Bruce Tiffany <=-
 Bt> From: btiffany@pbs.org
 Bt> Date: 22 Sep 92 12:27:09 GMT
 Bt> Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA
 Bt> Message-ID: <1992Sep22.082709.17870@pbs.org>
 Bt> Newsgroups: alt.messianic
 Bt> 
 Bt> Robert A. Levene writes:
 
 > Bill Carlson writes:

 > (Note:  Would you please format your messages so that they're
 >         readable?  Whitespace only costs one or two bytes.)

 Bt> For once I agree with Rob Levene!  (Can it be??)  Bill, I, too, find
 Bt> your posts rather difficult to read, although I enjoy reading them and
 Bt> whole- heartedly agree with what you say.
    I've been using white space for about a week, have you noticed, or
is your mail slow?

BTW..., I did get your two "test" posts in alt.Messianic

Shalom



... 012 Midrash: (303) 289-6864 @ 9600 baud :MJCN 210012 Denver Colo. 210  
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From: Donna.D'Iorio@f7022.n124.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Donna D'Iorio)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Intrater
Date: 1 Oct 92 17:01:08 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:124/7022 - MAXUS World H, Dallas TX


    In response to Peggy Baker:
PB>Thank you very much. That was very enlightening. I
PB>appreciate that. I'm not Jewish so I really thank you for
PB>educating me. I would like to know something about the
PB>engagement and rapture before the tribulation by hearing
PB>about the Jewish traditions of marriage, engagement
PB>foreshadowing of the real thing.

    You are most welcome, Peggy, although I am not sure which post you
are referring to.  I haven't done more than a superficial once-over on
the foreshadowings of the wedding customs.  Zola Levitt has a book out
on the subject (which I haven't read).  There is quite a lot of
information given on the topic in a book that I do highly recommend by
Marvin R. Wilson, "Our Father Abraham: Jewish Roots of the Christian
Faith."
    Publisher: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, MI
and Center for Judaic-Christian Studies, Dayton, OH
    Copyright 1989, Reprint March 1991  ISBN 0-8028-0423-3

    The book offers about 36 pages on the subject, plus a good
foundation in many other areas.  Think you would find it a beneficial
aid well worth seeking out.  Yes, I would urge you to find this book as
it is a real education on many counts and written for easy
understanding--meaning without a bunch of theological jargon that takes
a machete to hack through. <grin>
    Hope this helps.  Donna D'Iorio

PS--Just remembered that your Sysop has the MJCN files in his Fort
Worth files section--I believe there is a file there that addresses the
Messianic view of marriage which might answer some of your questions.
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From: hudson@athena.cs.uga.edu (Paul Hudson Jr)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Spiritual Gifts
Date: 29 Sep 92 21:00:43 GMT
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens

A friend of mine, who is involved in the Messianic movement once pointed out
to me that he noticed that many Jews who became Christians had visions,
and for this reason, many Messinianics became Charismatics as well.  
Paul Cain, for example, is Jewish, and the Lord has used him prophetically.
Gentiles have visions and have the same gifts as well, but does anyone
find that Jewish believers are more prone to have certain gifts?

Link
From: Donna.D'Iorio@f7022.n124.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Donna D'Iorio)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Clean and Unclean  n
Date: 27 Sep 92 16:27:02 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:124/7022 - MAXUS World H, Dallas TX


    In Response to Tom Albrecht:
TA>From: topcat!tom@tredysvr.tredydev.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht)
TA>Date: 20 Sep 92 00:42:47 GMT

TA>OK, so if the law hasn't changed, how can this "lasting ordinance" be ke
TA>today?  How is "atonement ... made once a year for all the sins of the
TA>Israelites" today?  How can one celebrate a biblical Yom Kippur without
TA>shedding of blood?

    The point for believers is not so much how one may celebrate a
bibilical Yom Kippur these days, but how *G-d* will continue to fulfill
His **mo'ed** "set times" or "appointed times" with Israel.  For the
spring feasts have seen prophetic fulfillment, and the fall feasts are
yet to be prophetically fulfilled by G-d.
    What we have in these biblical feasts are the times appointed by
G-d for Israel to observe as a holy "convocation," a "mikra," meaning
"an assembly called together" literally a RECITAL or REHEARSAL.

    Donna D'Iorio

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Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: dah@tko.vtt.fi (David Harwood)
Subject: Messianic interpretation of Isaiah 52-53
Organization: VTT
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 10:47:29 GMT

There have some some disputes about the interpretation of Isaiah 52-53,
song of the suffering servant. This figure and passage are very prominent
in New Testament conception of Jesus as the Messiah. I wanted to say that
there are some rabbinical commentaries which refer this passage to the
Messiah. (Some do not; but polemics obscure the issue.) But there is some-
thing more interesting that most are unaware of: there is a second partial
text of Isaiah found at Qumran, besides that larger one which is prominently
displayed. And this second text includes Isaiah 52-53. What is unusual is
this text has a change of one letter of the received Hebrew text, so that
the passage refers explicitly to the figure as "anoited" - a Messiah.

This suggests that some Jews at Qumran may well have interepreted this
passage as referring to a Messiah. (I am not saying that this alteration
is more original.) But there is more surprise (for me especially, since
I had previously wondered about this, then discovered it was so) - this
passage makes more sense, from a Christian point of view, with this
subtle change, considering the exact wording (the alterred word is the
verb "marred" - so that it now the peoples were startled (sprinkled?)
by his anoiting, which so transfigured his appearance. Before the text is
hard to read, suggesting the people were startled by his disfigurement
(marring). Further surprise, is that at least two Jewish commentaries
long after Christian origin, interpret this very same passage as Messianic,
moreover they say that the the Messiah's appearance like the glory of God
is what startles the peoples (comparing this to Moses's whose face was
made radiant). Again, it is as if they crucial verb "marred" is alterred
in meaning, if not form.

As Isaiah says, Who has believed our story? To whom has "the arm" of
the Lord been revealed? ("The arm of the Lord" is the divine revelation
in the aspect of God's power or instrumentality - other places it is
compared to a weapon, like an arrow or spear, or perhaps a ladder,
or even a staff, like lightning which extends from heaven where God is
hidden, as if in the clouds, to mankind and earth below. Notice all these
Biblical figures are extensions - from God to us, as if God is a heavenly
shepherd who guides us in the dark wilderness with a staff like lightning.
(Or very long "arm" ;-) Jesus said that his own revelation (coming in glory)
was also like the lightning in the heavens, which extends to the ends of
the earth. So in this passage, Isaiah may be saying that those who
understand his song are those who have seen for themselves God's power 
which exalts the suffering servant, who was despised among men.
From: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Judaizers in Colossians
Date: 30 Sep 92 22:56:00 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 8:7002/1.0

> You're just wasting your time, Harvey.  I explained all this in great detail
> to Tom a couple of years ago, at which point he claimed he'd never heard this
> before (of course not in a church that equates celebration of the Biblical
> feasts with "offering up strange fire to God"!), but he has heard it more
> than once since then.  ...

 TA=>one, simple
 TA=>question:  where specifically did God change His law to allow the
 TA=>celebration of the Levitical feasts without the shedding of 
 TA=>blood?

The levitical feasts in MJ circles have a high priest and a sacrifice, in 
fact we are the only ones who are able today to keep the mitzvot of the 
Levitical feasts.  Now go and learn what that means, and i will tell you.

 TA=>the MJ
 TA=>version of Yom Kippur or Passover is a biblical celebration.  

The New Covenant tells us how to celebrate Yom Kippur and Passover..

 TA=>the MJ version is any different than the rabbinic version, i.e., 
 TA=>relying on
 TA=>the traditions of men.  Anyone care to try?  Until you can, my 
 TA=>comment
 TA=>about "strange fire" (unsanctioned worship) stands.

The Rabbinic version is that on these very important holidays, the 
scriptures are read in the synagogues and temples about the priesthood and 
the sacrifices that are supposed to be offered in the Temple.  We as MJ's do 
not agree that that fulfills the covenant of G-d...

The MJ version is very simple,  Messiah our Passover, and His precious blood 
on the lintel and side panels of our hearts as it is applied brings about 
deliverance from bondage and the angel of death...

On the High Holy Days, we fast in accordance with the Torah and New 
Covenant, in that we afflict our souls, for our people Israel, and for our 
own sins, and for mercy and forgiveness to our people...

Fasting and praying is also a New Covenant commandment Tom....
 


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From: Donna.D'Iorio@f7022.n124.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Donna D'Iorio)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Gentile Christianityi
Date: 27 Sep 92 16:27:04 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:124/7022 - MAXUS World H, Dallas TX


    In Response to William E. Hamilton:
WE>From: hamilton@hydra.cs.gmr.com (William E. Hamilton CS50 CS/50)
WE>Date: 24 Sep 92 19:10:14 GMT

WE>OK. Thanks, Steve, I stand corrected. In any case the rabbit and the egg
WE>didn't come from Christianity - they were already there. The question
WE>I would like to have the answer to is, "Why did the church time its
WE>celebration of the risen Savior to coincide with the pagan fertility
WE>Goddess' day instead of Passover?" Tom? Steve? Anyone?

    Good question, William.  From the official promoclamations we have
the point is to rid the faith of its Jewishness:  "it seems to every one
a most unworthy thing that we should follow the custom of the Jews in
the celebration of this most holy solemnity, who, polluted wretches!
having stained their hands with a nefarious crime, are justly blinded in
their minds. It is fit, therefore, that, REJECTING THE PRACTICE OF THIS
PEOPLE, WE SHOULD PERPETUATE TO ALL FUTURE AGES THE CELEBRATION OF THIS
RITE, IN A MORE LEGITIMATE ORDER....LET US THEN HAVE NOTHING IN COMMON
WITH THE MOST HOSTILE RABBLE OF THE JEWS...In pursuing this course with
a unanimous consent, let us withdraw ourselves...from that most odious
fellowship."
    This a letter from Constantine to all the churches following the
    Council of Nicea.

    The tie to pagan holiday of fertility goddess, Astarte was for the
reason that the masses already accepted the goddess and her holiday as
legitimate, but did had ill-regard for the Jewish religion and holidays
which Christianity shared.  The idea was to legitimize Christianity by
sharing the accepted holidays with the pagans and putting off any ties
to the Jewish roots.  It was more "expedient" for securing the
acceptance of the masses for the new Church-State.
    Donna D'Iorio

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From: btiffany@pbs.org
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Clean and Unclean
Date: 28 Sep 92 17:44:32 GMT
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA

Robert A. Levene writes:

> Laura Manninen writes:

>>>>     Until the Temple was destroyed in A.D.  70, Jewish teaching emphasized
>>>>     the  necessity of blood atonement.  According to the Talmud, "There is
>>>>     not atonement (kapparah) without the  blood"  (Yoma  51;  Zebahim  6a;
>>>>     Menahot 93b).
> 
> This doesn't say "atonement in general is only through blood."
> It says that blood is a necessary part of properly performed
> animal sacrifices.

No, it does *not* say "blood is a necessary part of properly performed
animal sacrifices".  It says "there is not atonement without the blood".  I
believe that means there is not atonement without the blood.  You believe
it means something other than it says.

Or perhaps you can tell us which animal sacrifices might not have featured
blood?  They weren't just tossed in a furnace.  They were cut with a knife.
It is utterly ridiculous to say that a proper animal sacrifice had to include
blood.

> In a discussion of fountain, ball-point, and quill pens you can say
> "There is no writing without the Ink."  But that doesn't prevent you
> from writing with a graphite pencil, since the specific context is "pens"
> not "writing" in general.

And I suppose you're not prevented from sacrificing bloodless animals, right?
Which ones were those?

"Be sure, when writing with an ink pen, to use ink, because there is no writing
without ink!"  Shucks.

And just because you can write with something other ink, does not mean there
is atonement with anything other than blood.  Especially since Torah says
there isn't.

I can get home by train (the best way), but if I had to I could probably
hitch-hike and eventually arrive at my destination.  But the fact that I can
think of analogies like this does not mean that there can be atonement
without blood.  You can invent all the analogies you want, and try to
obfuscate the clear meaning of Torah to boot, but it doesn't change the fact
that it says there is no atonement without the blood.

You can believe the rabbis if you want -- after all, that's Rabbinic
Judaism -- but I choose to believe the Torah of God instead.

> Does Christianity accept the principle that one can be consistent
> and sincere while believing incorrect ideas?

You're referring to yourself, I presume.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
		Surely our griefs He Himself bore, and our sorrows He carried;
     /\		... He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was
____/__\____	crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being
\  / || \  /	fell upon Him, and by His scourging we are healed.  All of us
 \/--++--\/	like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own
 /\  ||  /\	way; but the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on
/  \ || /  \	Him. ... By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will
----\--/----	justify the many, as He will bear their iniquities.
     \/							-- Isaiah 53
		Bruce Tiffany
From: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Passover/Easter
Date: 29 Sep 92 23:57:22 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 8:7002/1.0

HS>However, the symbolism is still there, and it is applied to
HS>the Blood of Yeshua that is applied to our hearts, the
HS>entrance way to our souls, and it is the Blood of the Lamb
HS>which delivers us evil etc...

 DD=>    And this is why it bothers me, because it is a witness to the 
 DD=>Jewish
 DD=>people that has been stripped from the faith, and also a witness 
 DD=>to the
 DD=>Gentiles as to the Jewish roots of the faith.

This should bother everyone.  It is the silent witness on every passover 
table, but the explanation has been stripped away.  That is what we are 
restoring.  The Jewish Gospel.

HS>Of course, for the non Jewish believers it is not
HS>necessary, but as the Apostles taught in Acts 15, if they
HS>want to know more they can find out from Synagogues, and
 DD=>    No, it is not necessary for Gentile believers to 
 DD=>observe...but I
 DD=>believe the Gentile total rejection of any significance to the 
 DD=>biblical
 DD=>feasts is tragic....for their own sakes, and for the sake of 
 DD=>Israel.
 DD=>    Donna D'I

Welll for their own sakes it is not tragic.  But for the sake of the Good 
news, now that is... 


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From: king@qut.edu.au
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Gentile Christianity (and bunnies)
Date: 28 Sep 92 14:21:17 EST
Organization: Queensland University of Technology

In article <1992Sep24.171845.16474@news.eng.convex.com>, swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren) writes:
> 
> Actually, the bunny and the eggs were original aspects of this pagan
> holiday (which existed before Christianity in Rome).  It is the
> Christian aspect which was tacked on by the Roman Catholic Church

I'm pretty sure that bunnies didn't come into it till much later.
There may be some evidence to link Easter eggs to some pre-existent
spring celebrations, but the bunny I think originated last century 
in a terrible poem some misguided soul wrote about him.
From: btiffany@pbs.org
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Biblical Judaism
Date: 28 Sep 92 12:48:23 GMT
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA

From: Donna.D'Iorio@f7022.n124.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Donna D'Iorio)
Subject: Biblical Judaism
Date: 20 Sep 92 16:20:00 GMT

>    In Response to Bruce Tiffany:
>bb>From: btiffany@pbs.org
>bb>Date: 17 Sep 92 14:11:57 GMT
> 
>bb>you're trying to do is get them to add to it the lie that because they a
>bb>Christians (in the Biblical sense, i.e. Messianic), they aren't Jewish
>bb>and/or don't practice Judaism.  They are Jews practicing Biblical Judais
>bb>This is also Biblical Christianity (Messianic), but not necessarily the
>bb>equivalent of Gentile Christianity.
> 
>    Bruce, here is something that might be of interest to you which
>relates, from an article discussing three layers to the veil of
>blindness upon Israel to Messiah.
> [...]
>    --This from the perspective of an Israeli sabra, Reuven Doron quoted
>from "The Removing of the Veil" (The Peace of Jerusalem newsletter,
>Sept. 1992).

Doron has stated very well what we've been saying all along.  Thanks for
posting it.

>    BTW: Have been checking into possibility of netmail. Please send
>Intrater material you spoke of to me at: 1:124/7022 or 8:7002/3018.

Sorry, Donna, I don't know how to use these numbers.

-- Bruce Tiffany
From: topcat!tom@tredysvr.tredydev.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Judaizers in Colossians
Date: 5 Oct 92 01:23:16 GMT
Organization: Applied Presuppositionalism, Ltd.

Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith) writes:

> The levitical feasts in MJ circles have a high priest and a sacrifice, in 
> fact we are the only ones who are able today to keep the mitzvot of the 
> Levitical feasts.  Now go and learn what that means, and i will tell you.

and

> The New Covenant tells us how to celebrate Yom Kippur and Passover..

This is all fine rhetoric, but I would like to see chapter and verse,
please.

--
Tom Albrecht
From: topcat!tom@tredysvr.tredydev.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Clean and unclean
Date: 29 Sep 92 00:08:22 GMT
Organization: Applied Presuppositionalism, Ltd.

btiffany@pbs.org writes:

> From: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith)

> >Wrong again Tom.  I would hope you would do some research before you make
> >such comments.  There are Charismatic Denominations.  ...

Thanks, Bruce, I missed this message from Harvey (bad news feed).

My original comment was that there is no "Charismatic" denomination simplar
to a Presbyterian or Baptist denomination.  There are denominations that
are charismatic in nature, just as there are denominations that are
pentecostal in nature.  But here is no "First Charismatic Church of
Philadelphia", for example.  Is there?

>                                                        One is in a group
> >called "Kingdom now" and is headed up by a guy in Atlanta, Ga.  ...

"Bishop" Earl Paulk?  I hear he's making it big time with some of the MJs
Bruce hangs out with.  Are the "Bishop" Paulk and "apostolic pastor" Juster
still keeping company, Bruce?


--
Tom Albrecht
From: Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Jesus as Messiah, but not as God
Date: 4 Oct 92 14:21:28 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 8:7002/1.0


To:Jeff Bytof
> What are the theological problems with belief in Jesus as Messiah,
> but not as a diety?
> m=>There is no problem with this.
 m=>In fact many messianic jews do not believe in the trinity and do 
 m=>not believe
 m=>that Yeshua` is God, but still believe that Yeshua` is the 
 m=>Moshiach.

Nope that is just not true.  I really don't know who posted this, but it 
was posted to you Jeff.  over 90% MJ's do adhere to the "Word of God" 
becoming flesh.  We do affirm that while Yeshua did not become diety, in 
other words a man became G-d, we do affirm that G-d did in deed prepare a 
body, did in fact inject a new sperm of a new species in Miriam the virgin 
of Nazareth, and that in fact in Yeshua was the fulness of G-d in a body..

However, there are two aspects to Messiah. One being the son of Man, his 
humanity, for he was all man, and his diety, for G-d is G-d.....

When he hung on the cross, and said "Eli Eli Lama Sabachtani" my  God why 
hast thou forsaken me...  it was because the fulness of G-d left that man, 
and it was the man the annointed man who died in our stead.  "He who knew 
no sin became sin for us".  Hence proving that Adam in the garden of Eden 
did not have to fall and sin...  G-d was vindicated in His creation..

That is why Yeshua is called the second man Adam...

However for one to state that many MJ's don't believe in the diety of 
Messiah is for one just not true.  Like every group, we do have our 
anomolys too, but they are a very small minority.

In fact, i really do not know of Jews who are connected to MJ congregations 
that do not believe in the diety of Messiah.  Perhaps some self styled ones 
do, but not the mainstream of Messianic Judaism.. 


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From: levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Clean and Unclean
Date: 30 Sep 1992 11:42:00 -0500
Organization: Johns Hopkins University
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

In article <1992Sep28.084930.17958@pbs.org> you write:

>>  They all say that the blood is a
>> necessary component of animal sacrifices.  Hebrews 9 says that
>> blood is needed for all atonement, but that's part of the Christian
>> scriptures, not Jewish scriptures.
>
> Step back a moment and see how silly this really is.  I mean, was there
> some danger of there not being blood shed when an animal was
> sacrificed?

Of course.  Just stick it on the fire and burn away.  Why do you think
the Church used burning at the stake to murder people?  That way you
can kill people and tell G-d "See?  I'm technically not a 'shofech
damim' (sheddder of blood)."  Same idea with using a mace to bludgeon
people to death.

> Would Adonai really tell the kohanim to be sure not to leave out the blood
> when sacrificing?  Ludicrous!

It's shorthand for the 'zrika' (sprinkling the blood) step, which
they could not leave out.

R