From: jonh@david.wheaton.edu (Jonathan Hayward)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: God's influence
Date: 16 Aug 92 04:05:03 GMT
Organization: Wheaton College, IL

Note: In some parts of this response, I may appear to be harsh, despite my
attempts to be otherwise.  If this happens, please forgive me, and take the
context of my writing to be love.

In article <Aug.10.00.41.32.1992.5911@dartagnan.rutgers.edu> 19064@chopin.udel.edu (Liang-Wen Chang) writes:
>Hi, 
>
>I have some questions and thoughts to share.  I am questioning:
>
>A. God's existence and influence:
>If God exists, where is the influence?  The influence such can be
>defined as miracles.  As I see history goes on, nothing much was
>interferenced by God.  But I can see the people who believe in God
>have changed things in history.

I find your definition of God's influence to be extremely narrow - more so than
I've seen in my life, and more so than I've come to believe.

If you look at the Bible, there are many accounts of God intervening.  Only a
few of these interventions are in the form of truly supernatural miracles; most
occur within the "mundane" natural laws.  When God punishes (Old Testament)
Israel for its sins, it was rarely by fire from heaven or the earth opening up
to swallow people - much more commonly, famines and wars.  Likewise, when
prayers were granted, they were sometimes by means that are supernatural - a
man and a woman too old to have children being granted offspring none the less
- but much more often by means that did not go outside of the natural laws
(Joseph's rise to power and being second only to pharoah had no directly
supernatural dimension, unless you wish to count the interpretation of dreams,
but is clearly something accepted to be accomplished by God's hand among those
that believe).  Looking to the New Testament, likewise, there are some
occasions where God's intervention is clearly supernatural, but many others
where it is natural - for example, Paul's many voyages.

I find the world I live in to be essentially the same as the one the Bible
depicts.  It has a degree of ambiguity that is a part of its structure - chance
is the name commonly assigned to this ambiguity.  Regardless of what this
ambiguity is called, it has a certain effect: that it is not possible without
extraordinary means (prophesy) to know what will happen ahead of time.  If I
were God (which I am not, but I _am_ made in his image), I would use chance to
accomplish many of my ends.  Just as the people God used to write the Bible
found God's hand to be in seemingly random occurences, I believe that God is
now using chance to act in this world.  I also believe that God uses
supernatural events to accomplish his goals on _rare_ occasions (in the Bible,
miracles were extremely rare), but that is another issue to be dealt with at
another time.  In case you care, I have not personally witnessed an event that
is entirely supernatural (though I've met people who have), but I can feel the
Holy Spirit, can hear God speaking to me at times, and have in response to
prayers been granted events that probabilistically rank with winning the
lottery.

To get back to God's action in history - scientifically, it is considered
inappropriate to say "X has (does not have) effect Y" until you've tested what
happens without X being present.  For example, in drug testing, the people
running the tests don't just look at a group of patients given a drug to see if
they improve.  They look at a group of patients given a drug, and a similar
group of patients given a placebo, and compare progress.  As to how that
applies here - we don't have two worlds to look at (one where God is active,
one where there is no God).  Therefore, it is not reasonable to scientifically
say "God does (doesn't) exist."  I believe that God exists, and furthermore is
extremely active in the world, and on a personal level in people's lives.  That
belief is not something that exists because of proof, and is not something that
I understand to even be possible to prove.

>B. God's existence and the belief in people's mind:

(deleted because it does not pertain directly to what I am looking at here)

>C. What I want from God?
>I think someone will say, if I read Bible, I should ask 'What God
>want me do things for Him?'  I agree.  But, be honest to yourself, in
>every aspect of our life, we see things first is 'What I feel if
>I do this' or 'What I get if I make this decision'.  Then why when

I am being as honest as I can, and when I look at things that I do in Christ, I
really am not acting in the interest of furthering my personal gain.  There are
some instances where I directly benefit, but there are also instances where I
act at personal cost.

This is not my natural tendency, but Christ living in me.  Christ lived by
love, and loves me (me, personally) to the point of dying and going to Hell
(which he would have done if I were the only imperfect and sinful being on
earth).  And he gives me the strength to to things that look spectacular and
heroic.

>we face God we do the opposite, is there an inconsistence existed?

I'm not exactly sure.  One thing that I would say, though, is that wholeness
and blessing are God's nature, and that an injury taken in his service is
repaid many times over.  Christ, who was blameless and did not deserve _any_
suffering, took on himself the guild and suffering of the entire human race -
to the point of death.  And he suffered for it, immensely.  But in so doing, he
also gained uptimate glory, and when he had suffered, came back to life - not
only alive himself, but having brought life by permanently conquering sin and
death - they still exist (in this short time between the first and second
comings of Christ), but have lost their power.

Every suffering that I undertake in the name of Christ, now, is something for
which I will be infinitely repaid.

>I believe every Christians have such confliction in their hearts.

I don't have such conflists when I am truly allowing Christ to live in me.

>Back to the question: What I want from God?  I don't know exactly!
>But I want the most from God is when I want Him to give me something
>He will give me when I ask.  Someone will say 'You have to learn 
>to ask, sometimes you asked something is not right for you'.  
>I agree.  So as we ask our parents, we can learn the lesson from when
>we ask our parents.  I believe when I ask God to give me something,
>I ask something no one can give me.  That distinguishes God from
>earthly things or people.  In short, God didn't give me what I want

So, in other words, you are not only asking God to give you something, but
telling him how he must give it to you.  And if he gives it to you through
earthly things or people, then that's not valid.

This is where I see you departing from prayers that are granted.  The prayers
that I have seen that are holy ask for things, but do not tell God exactly how
he must deliver them.  God chooses how to deliver - sometimes through means
that you consider mundane, sometimes through means that are supernatural.  I do
not consider either to be mundane, or to fail to be God's work.

God is not a tame parlor trick, to be whipped out of a wallet and ordered
around at convenience.  He does act in the interests of his children, but of
all of the descriptive phrases I've heard, "boringly predictable" is one of the
ones which least accurately describes God.

>when I asked.  I am very confused when people say God answered
>their prays.  The explanation is something happened good for me
>is God answered me, something happened not according my pray is
>also God's answer 'to teach me a lesson'.  I feel this is self

"It is a wicked and perverse generation that asks for a sign."

You are asking for God to do things, not because you need them, but you think
that seeing those things will help you to substitute knowledge for faith.

Thomas had witnessed Jesus perform many miracles.  And yet, when told of his
resurrection, said that he would refuse to believe until he put his finger in
the wound in Jesus's hand and his hand in the wound in Jesus's side.  Do you
remember Jesus's reaction to Thomas's doubt?

>en-believing, self solving confliction between God's image in our
>hearts and reality.  I think God gives Christians the most are
>spiritial strength and hope, but not materials and miracles.

I disagree.  I have held in my arms children who would be dead were it not for
gifts granted through prayer.

>If God is all mighty God, He sould be able to give both 'frequently'.

"If God is all mighty God, He should be able"?

Has it occured to you that God might exist, might be real, and might have
specific reasons not to take actions that he could?

The most obvious reason I can see (note: this is speculation, this is not the
voice of God telling you "This is the way it is.") is that, quite simply, it
could very well destroy your faith.

Faith that exists because of what it has seen is not faith, and does not stand
up to any tests.  There have been times when I have asked God for something in
a pure manner, and it has so been granted.  There have also been times when my
faith was weak, and I asked God for something in a manner that was not pure,
and it was not granted - because for such a thing to be granted would have
caused me to substitute experience for faith, and have hurt me.  

"Seeing is not believing.  It is only seeing."


	-George Macdonald

>D. What do I believe?
>I believe God's existence.  I do not see miracle.  I believe God 

I do not see a great many of the things that I believe in.

>created all we have seen and known, but have not seen God's living
>influence on me or others or society at large.  I still see

I have felt God's living influence on me, but I also have a faith that, were I
to experience nothing out of the ordinary for the rest of my life, God would
still be there.

>human's nature (good and bad) governing the trend of
>history, not God's mighty.  God solves my reasoning about 'who'
>but not 'why' and 'how'.  That is the reason I believe God's
>existence.  About eternal life and eternal punishment, if
>I ask God give me a good life when I am still alive, yet God
>didn't give me, how can I trust God will give me something after
>I die.  I guess I see God's existence not from God's promise

God has been loving enough to deny requests I have asked that would have
injured my faith.  I would be surprised (to say the least) if he does not care
about you enough to do the same.

By the way - has God failed to give you the blessings of food, shelter, and
health?

>but from the materials God had created (but cease to create for
>a long time).  As for punishment, if I can not see God's 
>justice when I am alive, how can I trust God I will see God's 
>justice after I die.  And the last question: what is the 

As said before - you are requiring God to be reduced to a rabbit-in-the-hat, a
predictable exception to the laws of physics who is not quite God, and who
certainly does not do things you don't expect.

>difference if I believe God's promise or not, to me NOW?

Well, I can see the answer that you want to hear to clearly be "nothing".  I
don't exactly know how to help you be willing to hear a different answer, but
I'll try.

I don't know God so well that I can predict his actions, or tell you what he
has in store for you.  If he tells me exactly how he wishes to make you great,
I will be surprised.

All I can say is that, if you truly believe - not pay lip service for a moment,
to get God to show you a proof that will make belief unnecessary, but believe -
God will start to show himself.  As to how - perhaps by letting you see his
hand in what appears to be chance.  Perhaps by granting the unlikely in
response to prayer.  Perhaps by granting a supernatural miracle - I do not know
God's mind, and I cannot predict how he wishes to bless you.  God knows.

>I remember when I was 15, a Christian asked me why can't I 
>believe in God?  I said I can believe in God, but what God
>can give me?  Today, I still ask the same question.  I
>have to be honest to myself that I do not see God's mighty
>influence on anything of my life.  I would say I would 
>like to believe God can have mighty influence on every thing
>but I yet see any such influence.  I hope God will do
>things human can not do, not something human can do if
>they beieve in God.

The question is not "what can God give you", just as the question was not "what
can your parents give you."  Your parents did not give you everything you asked
for - all of the candy and sugar you wanted to eat, as late of a bedtime as you
wanted, being allowed to play in the street - not because they were not _able_,
or because they did not _love_ you enough to give you what you wanted, but
_because_ they did love you they did not do some things that they were able to.

As to the mighty influence God holds - don't you see the amount of things
controlled by chance as (in and of themselves) a mighty influence?

I hope that you can see God acting through humans and natural means, as well as
the supernatural (if you are one of the few whom God chooses to show direct,
supernatural intervention).

My name is Jonathan - a Hebrew name which means "God gives."  When I let God
use me, I live up to that name - being an agent by whom God gives.  God does
not blindly stumble along in his miracles as if humans don't exist, but uses
people - me - in his plans, and as the tools in many of his miracles.  He does
not do the great dance alone, but has in his awesome majesty permitted me, too,
to step the steps of the great dance.

God is not sitting idle when he uses humans such as me to accomplish things.
Rather, he is acting in a majestic manner, incorporating humans into his
miracles.  Do not discredit a miracle because it does not conflict with the
rules that order the world.

>As Chinese old saying, 4 things that human can not change:
>birth, aging, sickness, death.  In these four things, God also
>didn't do much about them.  God don't decide who get born,

He doesn't?

So David was wrong when he wrote Psalm 139:13-14:

For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.
I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; you works are
	wonderful, I know that full well.

The formation of an unborn child is still largely hidden.  True, there are now
such things as ultrasound and amniocentesis, but the formation of an unborn
child is still not a "predictable" process.  Because of that, why do you assume
that God has no part in it?

>can not stop aging, can not heal sickness, can not stop

Aging: I grant you that God _has_ not stopped aging, but the sting of aging is
       dependant on death.  While I try to take care of my body - I exercise and
       try to get good food and sleep - I hold that to be nothing in comparison
       with my soul.  I have been weak once (until I started exercising, I was a
       great weakling), and am prepared to be weak again.  The reason is that
       each year I age takes me closer to Heaven - an immortal and incorruptible
       body in which to enjoy the ultimate paradise.  Aging is a temporary
       circumstance.

Sickness: God can heal sickness.  I believed it before I saw it happen, and I
	  believe it now (and will continue to believe, even if I never see a
	  person who is healed by God again).

	  Perhaps some time you can meet my littlest brother, to see the depth
	  of healing that God has made manifest in him - and the strength and
	  character that the sickness has developped in him.

>death.  In a society with people believing in God, every thing

Death has been reversed, effective as of the resurrection of Christ.  I look
forward to my death - not because this life is not sweet to me (it is), but
because the next one will be even better.  To a Christian, death means the
beginning of immortality.  And looking at this immortality:

All born into this immortality do so after accepting and being made anew by the
blood of Christ.

Sickness, aging, and death are no more.

>are no difference from a society with people not believing in
>God.  If God has any influence on world, it would not matter
>if people believe in Him or not. 

It does.  People who believe in him (by his nature) live lives that are filled
with light.  In addition, they are most often the means by which he works.

God cares about people.  He was rather lonely before we existed, and - caring
for us as his own children - is not content to let _one_ slip through the
cracks.  That's what Jesus's death and resurrection is about.  He wants each
person to believe, and be born into immortality.  And when one person does
believe, God uses that person as a means to bless others, and in doing so
blesses that person.  It does make a difference.

>I hope I am not offending any one.  I just talk heartly about
>what I see and what I can understand.  If believing in God takes

You are not offending me.  You are speaking honestly and truthfully about what
you believe, what you want to believe, and what you can't yet believe.  I value
that a lot, and I believe that God does too.

>so much efforts, then I feel God is playing hiding and seeking
>game.  Which I don't believe the hide and seek game is what God's
>all about.  If Bible is so difficult to read, that Christians

God is not about a game of hide and seek - you are right.  But at the same
time, there are some things that aren't easy - Satan doesn't like to let go of
people easily, and is doing his best to oppose God every step of the way.

I hope - and pray - that God will help you will come to believe.  God will show
you some way to believe - perhaps by a supernatural miracle, perhaps by a
miracle that is not supernatural - and I am praying that you will be open to
that.

>have to read between the lines, then Christianity is not for
>everyone.  If God's image is in everyone's hearts, why do we need

The Bible is difficult to read - impossible by human standards.

What is impossible by human standards is possible in God.  When I gain
understanding through the Bible, it is not through my own power - God
illuminates me, shows me the meanings in its text.

>people to teach us to know God?  and why even after teached, still

God comes to people in many different ways.  Sometimes it is when another human
teaches, sometimes when reading, sometimes when walking along a beach or in a
forest.  When it happens, the Holy Spirit gives insight.  I do not know how to
describe it to you short of waiting it to happen.

>so unconvincing.  

It is not convincing by standards of human wisdom and eloquence, but by the
Holy Spirit.

"Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, says the Lord."  (Zech 4:6)

What applies to physical or political strength also applies here to
intellectual strength - it is not the way God works.

May the illumination of the Holy Spirit fill you with understanding.

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