HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: zones
Organization: noitazinagrO
	<1992Sep3.204717.6499@iscsvax.uni.edu> 
	<1992Sep4.235807.9273@casbs.Stanford.EDU> 
	<1992Sep8.005227.6545@iscsvax.uni.edu>
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 17:44:43 GMT

In article <1992Sep4.235807.9273@casbs.Stanford.EDU>, 
kathleen@casbs.Stanford.EDU (Kathleen Much) writes:
Many Westerners use the Sunset Magazine zones, which are much more
detailed (see Sunset Western Garden Book for good maps).  My problem
is how to translate my Zone 16 to the zone system used by nurseries
accustomed to zones 1-9 only!  Many don't print "pretty picture
catalogs" with maps in them.  If anyone can tell me what USDA zone
Menlo Park, CA, is in, maybe I can choose plants more intelligently.

In article <1992Sep8.005227.6545@iscsvax.uni.edu> klier@iscsvax.uni.edu writes:
Stanford is USDA zone 9, as is most of the heavily populated areas of
CA, except for extreme coastal areas from Marin to San Diego (zone 10),
and a bit around LA and SD proper, zone 11.  Most of the mountainous
areas are USDA zone 8, with some zone 7 peeking in about NW CA.  Imperial
Valley is also zone 9.

---
Kay goes on to state that snow cover is a big variable that is not accounted
for in the USDA zone system. Another big factor is micro-climates. The SF Bay
Area has USDA zones 11-8, but you won't hear that from the USDA. Frost comes
as radiation frost, so hillside areas have cold air drainage into frost 
pockets. I live in one such frost pocket in USDA 9a Sunset 15, the old high 
chill cherry belt of the valley of hearts delight, and yet just five miles 
away is zone 10a, Sunset 16. The location of the banana farm in Santa Barbara
gets an average winter low of 50, so that would be USDA 12a. Silver Lake, CA,
at 8,000ft, gets an average winter low in the minus teens. But you don't 
have to live in the West to have microclimates. Protection from the cold north 
winds, from a body of water or a house or a tree belt is worth a zone or two. 
The concrete urban environment is a heat sink/source and gives another zone
point. Snow cover is a huge factor, it seldom goes below 20 under snow which 
is a great insulator, native mountain shrubs often experience dieback from 
exposure to dry cold air during drought winters with no snow cover. So what's
the bottom line? Forget about USDA zones in the West, use the Sunset zones.
But irregardless of which zone system you use, use it only as a guide of cold
hardiness not as a limitation. If in doubt, give it a try, many plants will
recover stronger from the occaisional freeze dieback. Even native plants often
suffer in unusually cold years. So use zones as a guide, not as a limitation.
From: stinger@pine.circa.ufl.edu (GUALA)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: ANDREW DIDN'T KILL IT (Hurricane damage isn't always fatal)
Date: 9 Sep 92 22:03:30 GMT
Reply-To: stinger@pine.circa.ufl.edu
Organization: University of Florida  (ufl.edu)
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4

I have recently returned from my second scoping trip to
the hurricane damaged areas of South Florida.  Our mission
was to look at urban trees.  Fortunately, many of the trees
in the area can be saved, even if they are down.  Unfortunately,
I observed many of the residents in the effected areas cutting
down perfectly healthy (although often leafless) trees and 
shrubs because they were thought to be dead.  If you are in the  
effected area and you are about to cut a tree down, you may want
to wait a few months if it isn't presenting a safety risk.  In
general, palms that aren't snapped can be righted and well watered
and dicot trees can be pruned on the ground and then righted and
watered.  The natives and near natives are especially amenable to
this.
                     Good luck,
                     Stinger Guala
                     Dept. of Botany
                                              2nd Posting
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
From: julie@Turing.ORG (Julia M. Edwards)
Subject: Window Greenhouses
Organization: The Turing Project, Charlottesville Virginia.
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 22:18:14 GMT


Does anyone know where I can order a window greenhouse kit...
or does anyone our there have plans that I could follow easily 
to build my own? 

thanx

julia
-- 

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j u l i a   m.  e d w a r d s                    |~~~-_        __---__        
julie@turing.org                                  \    ~-___--~      --__     
julie@gnu.ai.mit.edu                              /           __---_     ~|   
----------------------------------------------   | __--___    \     -_   /    
P        A        N        A        M        A   |/       -_   |  o   -_/     
----------------------------------------------            o ---  _____________
flor de los mares-puente del mundo-eslabon de continentes-corazon del universo
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: woodley@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Judy Woodley)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 20:30:03 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Raising PH - collect rainwater?
Organization: the HP Corporate notes server
Newsgroups: rec.gardens

For the last two years we've removed one of downspouts from the roof's gutter
and let it drain into garbage cans purchased for the purpose.  Even with our
drought conditions, we've had no problems filling five garbage cans.  (We
wait 'til the second storm, so the roof gets rinsed off--less debris in the
stored water that way.) 

I have been meaning to test the pH of the barrelled water since I first saw
this notestring, but I keep forgetting.  (I figure the 35-year-old redwood
shingles might have made some mark on the pH of the rain water--not that 
the plants have complained in the least--they're grateful to get
watered at all!)

OSH (a San Francisco south bay home center) has garbage cans on sale for $9....
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
From: amz@iguana.cis.ohio-state.edu (Arnold M Zwicky)
Subject: for mjohnson in tipp city, ohio
Organization: none to speak of
Distribution: oh
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 18:31:01 GMT

failed mail; ncr seems to be very tricky in general...

Date: Tue, 15 Sep 92 13:50:03 -0400
From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <Mailer-Daemon@cis.ohio-state.edu>
Subject: Returned mail: Host unknown
Message-Id: <9209151750.AA25118@news.cis.ohio-state.edu>
To: <zwicky@ling.ohio-state.edu>

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
421 stake.daytonoh.ncr.com.tcp... Deferred: Invalid argument
550 <mjohnson@stake.daytonoh.ncr.com>... Host unknown: Invalid argument

   ----- Unsent message follows -----
Received: from julius.ling.ohio-state.edu by news.cis.ohio-state.edu (5.61-kk/5.911008)
	id AA25116; Tue, 15 Sep 92 13:50:03 -0400
Received: by julius.ling.ohio-state.edu.ling.ohio-state.edu (4.1/2.920324)
	id <AA04034@julius.ling.ohio-state.edu.ling.ohio-state.edu>; Tue, 15 Sep 92 13:50:00 EDT
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 92 13:50:00 EDT
From: Arnold Zwicky <zwicky@ling.ohio-state.edu>
Message-Id: <9209151750.AA04034@julius.ling.ohio-state.edu.ling.ohio-state.edu>
To: mjohnson@stake.daytonoh.ncr.com
Subject: Re: the significance of scale

ah, thanks for the information from tip city.  

i don't expect to be going that way again until 15 december, when
i set out on my annual drive to california.  and then again on 20
march, on our way back.  but there is next summer...

thank you also for your nice words about my postings.

arnold
From: klier@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: zones
Date: 8 Sep 92 00:52:27 -0500
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

In article <1992Sep4.235807.9273@casbs.Stanford.EDU>, kathleen@casbs.Stanford.EDU (Kathleen Much) writes:
> Many Westerners use the Sunset Magazine zones, which are much more
> detailed (see Sunset Western Garden Book for good maps).  My problem
> is how to translate my Zone 16 to the zone system used by nurseries
> accustomed to zones 1-9 only!  Many don't print "pretty picture
> catalogs" with maps in them.  If anyone can tell me what USDA zone
> Menlo Park, CA, is in, maybe I can choose plants more intelligently.

Stanford is USDA zone 9, as is most of the heavily populated areas of
CA, except for extreme coastal areas from Marin to San Diego (zone 10),
and a bit around LA and SD proper, zone 11.  Most of the mountainous
areas are USDA zone 8, with some zone 7 peeking in about NW CA.  Imperial
Valley is also zone 9.

The USDA zones are +/- logical: zone 11 has an average minimal winter temp
above 40oF; zone 10, 30-40; zone 9, 20-30; zone 8, 10-20; zone 7, 0-10;
zone 6, -10 to 0; zone 5 -20 to -10; zone 4, -30 to -20; zone 3, -40 to -30;
zone 2, -50 to -40; zone 1, below -50oF.

Easy way to find your USDA zone is to call the county extension office,
or the local airport, or the local climatologist, and ask for your average
minimum winter temperature.  Then you may start making some adjustments,
depending on whether you get cold, dry winter winds and not much snow cover,
or whether your garden is in a more protected area.

I grew up in USDA zone 5, and I actually have an *easier* time with
winterkill and roses here in Cedar Falls (4)-- the difference is that there
is a *much heavier* snowpack here, and snow's a pretty good insulator.
I'd have a harder time in zone 4 in the Dakotas -- more wind, less shelter,
less snow = more dried out roses = more dead roses.

Kay
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
From: kathleen@casbs.Stanford.EDU (Kathleen Much)
Subject: Re: zones
Organization: Center for Advanced Study in the Behavioral Sciences
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 23:58:07 GMT

In article <1992Sep3.204717.6499@iscsvax.uni.edu> klier@iscsvax.uni.edu writes:
>The old USDA plant hardiness zones were based on minimum winter temperatures:
>if the average min. temp is -30 to -20 (my area), you were in zone 4; Pitts-
>burgh was zone 5 (-20 to -10oF).  In 1990, the USDA released a new version 
>of the zone map that was much more detailed, and seems to work a bit better.
>You'll still see the older map in many catalogs, but this isn't really a
>concern unless you were on one of the edges of the old zones (and those of
>us who were usually bought plants hardy the next zone north anyhow).
>
>You can buy a *really* detailed copy of the USDA map from the Superintendent
>of Documents for about $7; most of us make do with the ones that are 
>tucked inside the pretty picture catalogs of US firms selling perennials
>or nursery stock.   Do Canadians use the USDA maps, or is there a
>separate scheme?

Many Westerners use the Sunset Magazine zones, which are much more
detailed (see Sunset Western Garden Book for good maps).  My problem
is how to translate my Zone 16 to the zone system used by nurseries
accustomed to zones 1-9 only!  Many don't print "pretty picture
catalogs" with maps in them.  If anyone can tell me what USDA zone
Menlo Park, CA, is in, maybe I can choose plants more intelligently.


-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Kathleen Much, Editor		|E-mail: kathleen@casbs.stanford.EDU
CASBS, 202 Junipero Serra Blvd.	|Phone: (415) 321-2052
Stanford, CA  94305		|Fax: (415) 321-1192
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
From: andy@cmptrc.lonestar.org (Andy Hart)
Subject: Re: bonsai
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 04:27:17 GMT
Organization: CompuTrac Inc., Richardson TX

In article <1992Sep1.183457.1710@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> fnorman@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (J Farley Norman) writes:
>
>    Does anyone know if there are any magazines
>devoted to bonsai ?  Mail order places to get
>related tools, supplies, etc ?
>

  Here is a good one:    Bonsai Today
			 Stone Lantern Publishing
			 POB 816 Sudbury, MA  01776
			 ph: (508) 443-7110

  It's expensive, but a very nice magazine.  They accept phone subscriptions
  using a credit card.  Here's another which I have no phone number for and
  have not seen:

			 Magazine of Bonsai & Japanese Gardening
			 POB 2098
			 Sunnyvale, CA  94087
>
>  Farley Norman
>  fnorman@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu

  Let me know how your bonsai endeavours get along.  I'm interested in 
  finding people who are interested in discussing it.  I created an "alt.bonsai"
  group, but other than attracting the attention of a couple of flaming jerks,
  I've had no response.


-- 
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
|   Andrew Hart                   |  CompuTrac, Inc.                 |
|   (214) 234-4241                |  222 Municipal Drive             |
|   andy@cmptrc.lonestar.org      |  Richardson, TX  75080           |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: louiset@informix.com (Louise Twiggs)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Iris - How big will it grow?
Date: 11 Sep 92 15:02:17 GMT
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.
Originator: louiset@cheetah

I have recently purchased my spring/early summer flowering bulbs, and
was lured by the beautiful and unusual colours of an Iris called
'Bronze Beauty'.  The only thing I am confused about is that on the
front of the packing it says it will grow to 16", on the back it
says 8" and in one of my gardening books it says 18".  

Whilst I would not be grief stricken if it grew to any of these sizes,
it would be helpful to get the right picture, as I want to plant it
with other complimentary plants - (ie smaller border plants).

does anyone have experience of growing this Iris - is the colour as
good as it looks on the packaging?  and how big will it really grow?

Thanks


Louise Twiggs
Informix Software Ltd
From: denisec@amadeus.wr.tek.com (Denise Caire)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Why wash before freezing? (was Re: freezing tomatoes?)
Date: 10 Sep 92 22:12:42 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.

In article <5184@gold.gvg.tek.com> stevem@gold.gvg.tek.com (Steve Miller) writes:
>	...  Wash the tomatoes well,
>	and then set them on a cookie sheet and put them in the freezer.

Which leads to yet another question about freezing produce.  When I
freeze blueberries, I NEVER wash them first.  I just put them on a 
cookie sheet, freeze, and bag.  The berries have less flavor if they
are washed first.  So, why?  And, does this apply to other produce such
as tomatoes?  I'm asking because my mother just bought me a freezer 
(she thought I just had to have one, :-)), my tomatoes are coming on,
and I would like to freeze them but, do I wash them first, dip in boiling
water, remove peel, then freeze or just wash and freeze or just freeze?

What is the best method for retaining flavor and texture?  Or, are the
results about the same no matter how one freezes them?

Thanks in advance.
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
From: vsummers@polaris.cv.nrao.edu (Vince Summers)
Subject: naturalism
Organization: National Radio Astronomy Observatory
Distribution: rec.gardens
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 13:36:56 GMT

     I really am interested in such a group.  Yes, there is a group on hamster
and duct-tape.  
     My point is that many encouraging and elevating subjects have no group.
GNUS is not enlightening people on these subjects.  Every perversion under
the sun has a group.  puke puke puke.  highly intelligent and meaningful
isn't it?
     Wildflowers such as goldenrod even are worthy of consideration.  Some
50 varieties, I believe.  Misunderstood.  People think goldenrod causes hay
fever, when they would do better blaming the two varieties (at least) of 
ragweed.
     The purpose of my previous posting was really to discuss this.  Perhaps
the others, who disregarded (all but one) the intent of my posting are so
sensitive out of bad consciences.
    Plea888888994444
?
Vince
vsummers@polaris.cv.nrao.edu
From: jhb@calmasd.prime.com (Jim Bishop)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: why bother with corn?!!
Date: 10 Sep 92 05:16:53 GMT
Organization: -

In article <1992Sep9.160952.18856@samba.oit.unc.edu>, 
Doug.Hemken@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Doug Hemken) writes:
> 
> Kay writes:
> 
>> Me, I gave up growing sweetcorn several years ago.  Why should I dig all 
>> that ground, plant, water and mulch, when the neighbors with 3 or 4 acres
>> of sweetcorn are willing to sell me as much as I want for an entire season
>> for $5?
> 
> Sounds like sour grapes to me :-)
> 

Doug, why do you care whether Kay chooses to grow corn or not?  She
certainly doesn't seem to object to you or anyone else growing corn.

Let's face it we're all here because we *love*, or at least like to
garden.  You are bound to see some things that interest you and
somethings that don't.  So what's the big deal?

I'm something of a lazy gardener (obsessive and overworked and out of
time might be a better term) myself.  Anyway I've come up with my own
priority scheme when deciding what to grow.  I live in area with
several road side veggie stands near by.  Also there are several
farmer's markets fairly close, plus California produce at the grocery
store ain't that bad.  We also are fairly limited on our water.  So, I
only grow things that I can't get at any of these places, or are
better immediately after being picked, or I can grow for less than I
can buy.  This doesn't leave a lot of vegetables on the list, however,
there are still enough for a year round garden.  I've grown most of
the common vegetables at one time or another, and have experienced the
joy of gardening that you talk about, but after growing something a
few times the novelty starts to wear off and I'm ready for something
new.

> Why would any American bother vegetable gardening when we have such
> abundant, cheap food?  We know you love gardening, Kay.  You just enjoy
> being around living plants.  Don't give me that "slob-gardener"
> least-effort crap!  How about explaining to us what you *really* get out
> of gardening?  :-)

(Kay, I hope you don't mind me defending you.)  Doug what's your point
here.  I think Kay talks about what she gets out of gardening all the
time.  I also feel very fortunate that she likes to share her knowledge. 
Your accusative tone sounds like you believe there are *evil* reasons
for gardening or something.  Just what are you implying?
> 
> -=> Doug Hemken

Jim (who hopes that this whole thing wasn't a joke and he didn't get
it)
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
From: amz@iguana.cis.ohio-state.edu (Arnold M Zwicky)
Subject: Re: germinating black walnuts
Followup-To: rec.gardens
Summary: think like a squirrel
Organization: osu, lsa, stanford, outil,...
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 13:51:03 GMT

the way our squirrels germinate black walnuts is to drag them to our
place from a block or so away, in the fall, right about now in fact,
and bury them a few inches deep.  they then forget about a hundred or
so of them for the winter, and these produce sturdy seedlings in the
spring and summer.

this does involve a couple of months during which the nuts just lie
there in the cold frozen ground.  if your climate doesn't supply
the appropriate chill, your freezer will.  (my sources put the
southern range of juglans nigra as nw florida, e texas, and w oklahoma,
which suggests that frost is necessary.)

arnold


Newsgroups: rec.gardens
From: amz@iguana.cis.ohio-state.edu (Arnold M Zwicky)
Subject: Re: recipe request: marinara sauce
Followup-To: rec.gardens
Summary: basic tomato sauce
Organization: various
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 18:24:02 GMT

we use the following as a starting point; it's the "basic tomato
sauce" from the first _New York Times Cook Book_ (a woman friend from
kentucky, enthusiastic over craig claiborne: "why, he knows so much
about cooking he could be a *woman*!").  i usually make two to four
times this recipe, using somewhat more fresh tomatoes than the canned
ones called for here; in my occasional elegant moods, i peel and seed
the tomatoes, but mostly i just chop them up whole (putting them
through a blender or cuisenart first speeds things up a little).

BASIC TOMATO SAUCE  - about 3 pints

2 cups chopped onion
3 cloves garlic, chopped
3 tablespoons olive oil
3 1/2 cups canned Italian-style plum tomatoes, undrained
2 small cans tomato paste [or one can plus a cup of dry red wine]
2 cups water [if you're a vegetarian] or meat broth [otherwise],
    approximately
1 bay leaf
1/2 teaspoon salt
1/4 teaspoon freshly ground black pepper
1/2 teaspoon oregano, or oregano and basil mixed

1.  Saute the onion and garlic in the olive oil until brown, stirring
often.  Add the tomatoes, tomato paste, [liquid], bay leaf, salt and
pepper.  Simmer uncovered, stirring occasionally, about two hours [it
takes three to get a sauce i really like].  Add more [liquid] as necessary.

2. Add the oregano and continue cooking about fifteen minutes.  Remove
the bay leaf.  The sauce should be thick...

[it freezes well, and it's better than any bottled or frozen sauce i've
gotten in a supermarket.  other things - meat, eggplant, whatever - can be
added towards the end, of course.]

arnold

Newsgroups: rec.gardens
From: lp@well.sf.ca.us (Lily Pond)
Subject: Re: Wildflowers to Naturalism
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link
Distribution: rec.gardens
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 18:10:19 GMT

In article <VSUMMERS.92Sep11122156@polaris.cv.nrao.edu> vsummers@polaris.cv.nrao.edu (Vince Summers) writes:
>
>     When I first subscribed to rec.gardens, I was expecting too much from
>it.  I was hoping that many or some out there would have extensive know-
>ledge of wildflowers.  Some have provided information that I am  grateful
>for.  Also, on occasion I have benefited others.  I enjoyed the feeling.
>     I was, nevertheless hoping to see some intertwining of all wild nature
>in one group I labelled naturalism, not knowing what else to call it.
>I pointed out that there are many categories which would probably not be
>viewed as the most valuable or educational.  Some, rather than considering
>what I was truly concerned about took offense.  For this I don't 
>apologize.  I could have picked something else as an example, perhaps,
>but I don't apologize.  Why not?  I am firmly convinced that homosexuality
>is a filthy perversion.  A man putting his penis up another man's rectum
>or in his mouth?  What else can I think.  Nevertheless, I did not have
>discussing this in mind when I wrote the original posting.  I heard from
>many homosexuals on the subject, and seldom with a civil tongue, but only
>from one individual who knew I intended no malice.  Where are the others
>who didn't have the courage to support what they believe?  Afraid of a 
>little negative electronic mail?  You know, in Hitler's Germany many
>knew Hitler was wrong, but wouldn't speak out.  Look what happened to so
>many innocent persons.  If you know something, don't apologize or back
>down for taking a stand.
>     Now I would like to please many out there.  Rec.gardens is truly about
>home backyard gardens, and has little to recommend itself to the wild flower
>enthusiast.  I tried and failed with my naturalism, too.  So I will 
>unsubscribe from rec.gardens after finishing with this post.  Again,
>thanks for what knowledge I have gained to my helpers.
>
>Sincerely,
>Vincent Summers
>
>vsummers@polaris.cv.nrao.edu


I would like to move that Vince Summers be banned from rec.gardens. Is there
a way to implement this?

A discussion of beauty and growth is not a place where I would ever wish to
come across his dispicable hatefulness ever again.

I am a heterosexual woman, should that make any difference.