HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sl@wimsey.bc.ca (Stuart Lynne)
Subject: Re: Policy Enforcement
Organization: Wimsey Information Services
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 23:03:41 GMT

In article <1993Jan10.172104.16606@xenitec.on.ca> vances@xenitec.on.ca (Vance Shipley) writes:
>In eah@xenitec.on.ca (Ed Hew) writes:
>>
>Despite anything I may have said about the "desirability" or "suitability"
>of geographic naming conventions I believe the current structure is the
>best one put forth so far.  I feel the biggest issue is in how the policies
>will be enforced.  Whatever "tests" are made to determine which subdomain
>an organization belongs in if that organization strongly desires placement
>in another subdomain every effort should be made to accomadate them.
>
>The application form for registration within the .CA domain should clearly
>instruct applicants to use a orgname.locality.province.ca subdomain name.  
>This should be accepted as the normal form of addressing within Canada.  When 
>an organization applies for an orgname.province.CA subdomain name they should
>be granted their request.  When an application is made for an orgname.ca
>subdomain name it should be accepted after confirmation that the organization
>has a reasonable reason to be there.

I don't like political geographic sub-domains, but I'll argure for a bit
on that side.

One point we should make is that the CA domain committee is not legally
constituted.

By that I mean that the only standing they have is that the NIC has given
John Demco "authority" over the .ca portion of the name space. The rest
of us simply are requesting to use a portion of that name space in 
accordance with the underlying principles outlined in various RFCs 
(eg RFC1035).

That being said it's my opinion that they should not be in the business
of vetting what acceptable names are.

There are governmental bodies however that *are* vested with such 
authority. Provincially and nationally any organization or company
that is legally created must get approval for the use of a name
from the appropriate government agency before they are can be
used.

This implies that for example the .bc.ca namespace should be dedicated
to organizations or companies that have registered their name with
the BC Registrar of Companies. And that when used in conjunction with
.bc.ca there should be minimal (if any) changes from the registered
name and the one used (e.g. spaces changed to dash, perhaps eliminate
Ltd, Co etc).

It should also be possible for these types of organzations to use
names that they use after filling a "Doing Business As" type document.
This should be an additional registration.

-- 
Stuart Lynne <sl@wimsey.com> ......................... UNIX Facsimile Software
Wimsey Information Technologies ................... moderator biz.sco.binaries
uucp login:nuucp passwd:nuucp .................... ftp.wimsey.com:~ftp/ls-lR.Z
PD Software for SCO UNIX .................... ftp.wimsey.com:~ftp/pub/wimseypd
From: lyndon@unbc.edu (Lyndon Nerenberg)
Newsgroups: can.domain
Subject: Re: Domain naming conventions
Date: 6 Jan 93 22:14:51 GMT
Organization: University of Northern B.C.


 rahardj@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Budi Rahardjo) writes:

> I can't point to a particular reference, but I do maintain some mailing lists.
> And from my experience it's easier to remember userid/domain with 
> longer-but-readable words than series of 'random' letter and digit. 
> I have to look more carefully when dealing with 'random' letters and numbers 
> (hey, sometimes an 'l' looks like a '1').

Is there anyone out there who remembers when the entire known (e-mail)
universe used to source route through ihlpa and later ihnp4? That can't be
any worse than a postal code, can it?

What concerns me is a statement that was mae earlier in the discussion
about abbreviations for city names being rejected because there was no
"official" list of them. Has the committee really become so OSIified that
they are letting standards that don't exist stand in the way of common sense?

--lyndon
From: lyndon@unbc.edu (Lyndon Nerenberg)
Newsgroups: can.domain
Subject: Re: Q: organizational subdomains?
Date: 7 Jan 93 00:50:34 GMT
Distribution: can
Organization: University of Northern B.C.


 demco@cs.ubc.ca (John Demco) writes:

> In general I agree with the assessment of functional subdomains made
> by one of the CA domain committee members: "They're artificial."

Functional subdomains are simply a categorization method.
Geographical subdomains are simply a categorization method.

If you believe one you must believe the other.

I don't buy the argument about load on the root servers. ucsd.edu
quite cheerfully serves up thousands of entries for ampr.org (the zone
transfer will dump you about 280 kbytes of data) whilst doing all the
other things it does. John, could you provide some real numbers from
relay.cdnnet.ca showing the number of DNS queries it handles in a week?

--lyndon
Newsgroups: can.domain,comp.mail.misc
From: davidf@golem.waterloo.on.ca (David J. Fiander)
Subject: Re: The Left Hand Side
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1993 22:18:33 GMT
Distribution: can
Followup-To: comp.mail.misc

Note that follow-ups have been redirected to comp.mail.misc as
a more appropriate group.

>>					 We are looking to expanding
>>the left hand side to be something like John_Smith@Sask.USask.CA. The
>>next John Smith might be John.Q.Smith@Sask.USask.CA. 
>
>>				 Someone pointed out that the period
>>is not a good punctuation character on the left hand side because of
>>some sort of difficulty in sending to X.400 sites.
>
>Actually, a period in the local-part is invalid according to RFC-822,
>unless the local-part is quoted.  Few mailers enforce that, however.
>We went with an underscore.  I'm Gary_Mills@Umanitoba.CA.

Close.  The period in a "phrase" (which is commonly used as the
full name) is illegal unless quoted.  So

	Gary.Mills@Umanitoba.CA

is legal, but

	Gary J. Mills <Gary.Mills@Umanitoba.CA>

is illegal, and should be written as

	"Gary J. Mills" <Gary.Mills@Umanitoba.CA>

- David
Newsgroups: can.domain
From: kozlowsk@acs.ucalgary.ca (Don M. Kozlowski)
Subject: Re: locality abbreviations (was Re: What is this group for?)
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 93 23:53:04 GMT
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta

In article <C0Cwxz.381@wimsey.bc.ca> sl@wimsey.bc.ca (Stuart Lynne) writes:
>In article <93Jan04.222358.34201@acs.ucalgary.ca> kozlowsk@acs.ucalgary.ca (Don M. Kozlowski) writes:
[...]
>>I guess my point is, if you want to save typing use short cryptic
>>addresses and carry around a copy of the postal codes. If you
>
>This is the second or third time someone has said that you would
>need to carry around a copy of the postal codes. What for? 
>
>I didn't have have a copy of the postal code book to find out that 
>your postal code is T2N 1N4.

That's very good, but you seems to have missed my point. *I*
don't have ready access to a table that I can use to convert
postal codes to addresses. The only way I know you have my postal
code right is by checking my business cards. So let us in on your
secret. How do you magically convert addresses to postal codes?
And why would you want to? 

>
>>want something meaningful use a name that means something. If you
>>don't like typing long names use a table of aliases. That's the
>>beauty of using computers.
>
>Of course this is also an argument against political geographic
>designations of any kind. Let's harness the power that computers
>give us so that we don't have to use political geographic
>designations.

These political geopgraphics designations are important to me.
When I get mail, or see a posting, or get an internet address,
it's nice to be able to determine where that address is. If I'm
ftp'ing from a site in Ontario I then know enough to allow for the
time change.  If I'm sending mail to Edmonton, I type real slow
(just joking, put that flamethrower away :-).  

I know that V3H is in BC, but only because you've mentioned it
several times. I still don't know where in BC it is.
-- 
Don Kozlowski	                 	Phone: (403) 220-5156
Academic Computing Services		Fax:   (403) 282-9199
The University of Calgary
Newsgroups: can.domain
From: anne@maxwell.concordia.ca (Anne Bennett)
Subject:  locality abbreviations 
Reply-To: anne@maxwell.concordia.ca (Anne Bennett)
Organization: Concordia University, Montreal, Canada
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 20:38:40 GMT

eah@xenitec.on.ca (Ed Hew) writes:
> 
> We need a more reasonable alternative from a useable source.  If one
> isn't available, then someone should create one, and if no one does
> that, then we (the domain committee) will have to create our own
> "official" abbreviation list, within the CA Registrar's scope of
> authority.  If the government chooses to adopt it later, we'll likely
> let them.  :-)

I don't agree.  There are squillions (pardon the technical term :-) of
municipalities in Canada, and it would probably be very difficult to come
up with a reasonable set of abbreviations.  Doing so would be *way*
beyond the domain committee's resources, I think.

> I'd much rather be foo.kw.on.ca (assuming that we can successfully
> impliment location abbreviations as we're currently discussing in
> committee), or even foo.kitchener-waterloo.on.ca. 

I also favour the use of easy-to-remember, as opposed to easy-to-type,
names.  I don't think long domain names will be a problem in practice;
it's easy enough to set up a personal mail alias list anyway.  I say
just use the whole city name, and have done with it.

-- 
Ms. Anne Bennett          anne@maxwell.concordia.ca           (514) 848-7606
Computing Services C-1012, Concordia University, Montreal QC, Canada H3G 1M8
(Administrator for Concordia University mail relay, news transfer, and DNS)
From: lyndon@unbc.edu (Lyndon Nerenberg)
Newsgroups: can.domain
Subject: Re: Domain naming conventions
Date: 7 Jan 93 00:14:57 GMT
Organization: University of Northern B.C.


 anne@maxwell.concordia.ca (Anne Bennett) writes:

>   1) It should be easy to remember or look for site addresses; if there
>      are more than two conceptual namespaces in which to search, this
>      becomes quite difficult.

But that's why we have diretories.

>   2) The whole reason the namespace is hierarchical is to facilitate its
>      administration by having domains delegate responsibility for
>      subdomains.  This becomes impractical if subdomains exist which have
>      only one member.  If Stuart's site is wimsey.v3h.ca, but no one else
>      in that area likes to use postal codes, why should anyone agree to
>      maintain subdomain v3h?

What's the problem? If nobody else uses it the DNS information referring
to it will never have to be changed.

>   3) If we allow a very large number of sets of "guidelines", we will in
>      effect have no guidelines; the namespace will in effect be flat
>      under ca, but we will have lots of artificial one-member subdomains.
>      That would be the worst of all possible worlds.

What is "artificial" about a one member subdomain? For email purposes,
every machine at UNBC will identify as "unbc.edu" in the RHS. Does that
somehow make us less valid in your eyes? How do you know how many machines
may or may be hiding behind that top level domain? And why does that matter
anyway?

Let's look at another namespace: personal names. As far as I can tell, I
am the only entity registered under the subdomain "Gordon Lyndon Nerenberg."
Last time I looked I wasn't artificial ... Are you?

--lyndon
Newsgroups: can.domain
From: anton@analsyn.gts.org (Anton J Aylward)
Subject: Re: Domain naming conventions
Reply-To: anton@lethe.gts.org
Organization: ASCI: UNIX Database and Communications
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 14:11:37 GMT

In the article (<C098As.KF1@wimsey.bc.ca>) Stuart Lynne (sl@wimsey.bc.ca) posted to can.domain:
: In article <1993Jan2.234428.886@cs.UAlberta.CA> cdshaw@cs.UAlberta.CA (Chris Shaw) writes:
: >Thousands of studies of human memory performance bear this out. Postal
: >codes (and other seemingly random strings of letters and digits) are harder 
: >to remember than place names.

: You will of course give us some journal references so we can check out this
: assertion.

Make a start with the classic, which points out we think and remeber in
'chunks' rather than charecetr strings, and it is usually easier to
remember a long 'chunk' than a short - non-nmeonic - chareter string.

	Seven Plus or Minus Two: A limit to out information handling
		capapbility.
	Journal of the American Plilosophical Society, 1956.

	I thing the author's name was "Simon".

This is a classic and seminal work.
I'm sure others can find more recent references.
"Ergonomics" has only become fashionable in north America recently.
Many of the early studies - like figher and bomber planes in WWII -
were done in Europe when the US was taking a tough macho line and
calling 'ergonomics' wimpish.

--
Anton J Aylward	
	"The body politic is swerving from left to right and right to
	 left looking for quick fixes for systemic problems."
	   - Paul Palango, Journalist, ex The Globe and Mail
Newsgroups: can.domain
From: klassen@sol.UVic.CA (Melvin Klassen)
Subject: Re:  locality abbreviations 
Organization: University of Victoria, Victoria, B.C. CANADA
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 93 19:20:59 GMT

In article <*> anne@maxwell.concordia.ca (Anne Bennett) writes:
> I say just use the whole city name, and have done with it.
I agree, as long as "we" agree how to handle "strange" B.C. place-names, e.g.,
  Gibson's Landing
  Clo-oose
  Ceepeecee
  70 Mile House
  100 Mile House
  150 Mile House
  Fort St. James
  Mt. Satan
  W. A. C. Bennett Dam (would anybody E-mail to them?)
  Clinton    :-)
  Beavermouth (Breath-mints, anyone? :-)

Clearly, some rule for handling the punctuation-characters is needed,
e.g., "devil@styx.Mt.Satan.BC.CA" is a case where the "dot" in the
name may(??) cause a problem, and the single (unbalanced!) quote
could throw many scanners for a loop.
Newsgroups: can.domain
From: woods@robohack.UUCP (Greg A. Woods)
Subject: Re: Geographic Naming Conventions Considered Harmful
Organization: Elegant Communications Inc.
Summary: except for geographically oriented entities....
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 93 15:26:41 GMT

In article <1993Jan05.043626.22116@xenitec.on.ca> vances@xenitec.on.ca (Vance Shipley) writes:
> When it came time to register a domain name for our organization I carefully
> considered my options.  Many told me that I had no choice, I would join ON.CA.
> In the end I chose to register switchview.COM.

Funny how some folks would be so convinced of their notions to tell
you this!  :-)

> The situation would be different if municipalities maintained MANs (Municipal 
> Area Network) connected by WANs (Wide Area Network) run by the provincial
> governments which were all connected to a federal government run backbone.
> In this scenario there are valid reasons to enforce naming conventions which
> follow the network topology.  Even in this case it is an issue of easing the
> administration of the network.

And, of course, even if the networks were not run by the provincial
governments, they could still maintain domain names with a
heirarchical, geographical, orientation as indeed some existing domain
parks do.

As I said before, I've no problem with geographical domain names for
pubilic institutions which exist primarily to serve a locality, though
at the same time I'd not be upset if they all went up in arms and
decided they should again be "dept.school.edu", or "dept.city.gov",
etc.

Otherwise, I see geographical sub-domain names *only* as a way to
maintain the bickering about naming conventions, etc. as we've been
seeing here since the inception of this group.

Perhaps if the CA-DOM committee gets a chance to speak about who they
expect to be members of the domain, those of you bickering over the
appropriate naming and abbreviations will instead be able to decide if
you even have any concern about any of this!
-- 
						Greg A. Woods

woods@robohack.UUCP, woods@Elegant.COM  VE3TCP	UniForum Canada & ECI
+1 416 443-1734 [home] +1 416 362-XRSA [work]	Toronto, Ontario; CANADA
Newsgroups: can.domain
From: sl@wimsey.bc.ca (Stuart Lynne)
Subject: Re: locality abbreviations 
Organization: Wimsey Information Services
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 22:50:58 GMT

In article <1993Jan5.174445.6217@tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca> timk@tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca (Tim Kuehn) writes:
}In article <C0DG76.Ltv@wimsey.bc.ca> sl@wimsey.bc.ca (Stuart Lynne) writes:
}>I don't think (airport code are) as practical as postal codes. I can give 
}>you the PC for any currently registered domain, or someone I have a business 
}>card for in a few seconds. But airport would require looking up in a list. 
}>And there is a minor problem with knowing what airport someone is near. But 
}>that doesn't make it unusuable.
}
}Another problem is "Which airport"? I am close to three I can think of:
}Breslau, one in Hamilton, and one in Toronto. And who knows how many 
}private or small sites there are out there.

The same "problem" has been commented on vis a vis postal codes. Some people
claim that they have several to choose from.

Well pick one. If you use the wrong one nothing will happen. Lightning 
will not flash out of the sky and zap your modem. The RCMP won't put you 
one their wanted list. CSIS will not start tapping your data lines! :-)

The reason we don't want everyone at the top level is that there is a 
perceived problem with trying to maintain 100,000's of names all
as XXX.ca. So we want to be able to create a heirarchy to do two 
things. First allow the DNS servers to be split up. Second to be able
to delagate the authority to give out names to different people.
To use DNS terms, to create different "zones".

In this respect, it doesn't really matter what the tokens are. They
can be randomly generated strings. It is deemed beneficial if there
are fewer 2nd level tokens than third level. 

In this respect for the short term using province works well. It allows
ten zones to each have a separate DNS server and domain registrar to
manage it. Longer term it is problematical if we do indeed have
millions of users asking for domain names.

The US domain went a step farther and added city because they have a 
much larger population base and in some states (eg California, New
York) you still end up with too large a zone if only the state is 
used.

The basic problem with both of these, is that there are some crazed
radicals out there who don't feel comfortable with tying themselves
to political geographical designations. There are also problems with
having to change your email address when you move. Proponents say 
that it is not hard to change it. Oponents say that computers should
be able to hide these gritty details from the user.

-- 
Stuart Lynne <sl@wimsey.com> ......................... UNIX Facsimile Software
Wimsey Information Technologies ................... moderator biz.sco.binaries
uucp login:nuucp passwd:nuucp .................... ftp.wimsey.com:~ftp/ls-lR.Z
PD Software for SCO UNIX .................... ftp.wimsey.com:~ftp/pub/wimseypd
Newsgroups: can.domain
From: eah@xenitec.on.ca (Ed Hew)
Subject: Re: Geographic Naming Conventions Considered Harmful
Organization: XeniTec Consulting, Kitchener, Ontario, CANADA
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1993 21:15:16 GMT

In article <1993Jan5.172057.4881@combdyn.com> lawrence@combdyn.com (Lawrence Chen) writes:
>So, when I move combdyn back to a .ca domain....do I register two domains

No need, and usually not desireable.

>combdyn.medicine-hat.ab.ca and combdyn.calgary.ab.ca, or can it just
>be combdyn.ab.ca?

combdyn.ab.ca would be appropriate for an Alberta-wide organization
(read: operating in more than a single Alberta locality).

> And, what happens if we open an office (again) in
>Mississauga, ON?

You would want to re-register as "combdyn.ca" as you would then
have a presence in multiple Canadian provinces.

The CA Domain Committee has in past taken anticipated opening of
extra-provincial offices into account when dealing with applications.
Ie, if you seriously expected to have an Ontario office open in a
few weeks or even months from submission of an application, then
you might as well tell us and apply for combdyn.ca in the first place.

                --ed            (Ed Hew)
--
        Canadian UUCP Map Coordinator           <path@cs.toronto.edu>
   ==>  UUCP liason to .CA Domain Registry	<registry@cs.toronto.edu>
        XeniTec Consulting Services             <edhew@xenitec.on.ca>
Newsgroups: can.domain
From: timk@tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca (Tim Kuehn)
Subject: Re: Domain naming conventions
Organization: TDK Consulting Services
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 16:13:54 GMT

In article <1993Jan6.224037.15946@sol.UVic.CA> klassen@sol.UVic.CA (Melvin Klassen) writes:
>In article <1993Jan5.174007> timk@tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca (Tim Kuehn) writes:
>>However, if we took the first four letters of all the city name(s), 
>>would that generate a unique identifier within a province? 
>Hmm.  In B.C., there are:
>
>Port Moody           Bella Bella
>Port Alberni         Bella Coola
>
>so "four" or "five" isn't enough!

That's what I said to use ALL the city name(s), not just the first name 
component of a city name. Under this naming convention, they wouldn't
be the names you cited, but:

Port Moody	portmood
Port Alberni	portalbe

Bella Coola	bellacoola
Bella Bella	bellabella

If you have a bit of standardized abbreviations, you can shorten sites
with "port", "saint", etc. down even further to:

Port Moody	ptmood
Port Alberni	ptalbe

 +-----------+-----------------------------------+---------------------------+
 | Tim Kuehn | TDK Consulting Services           | timk@tdkcs.waterloo.on.ca |
 | <><       | Ask me about news and mail in KW! | (519)-888-0766            |
 +-----------+-----------------------------------+---------------------------+
Newsgroups: can.domain
From: John Demco <demco@cs.ubc.ca>
Subject: Metropolis.QC.CA registration
Submit-To: candom@xenitec.on.ca
Organization: [resent by] The CANDOM gateway and Propagation Society
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 06:54:00 GMT
Resent-By: registry@xenitec.on.ca
Precedence: bulk

Subdomain:      Metropolis.QC.CA
Date-Received:  1992/12/19
Date-Approved:  1993/01/11
Organization:   Metropolis Graphics Ltd.
Type:           For-Profit Corporation
Description:    Metropolis Graphics Ltd. is a company involved in the
                development of advanced graphics and animation software.
Admin-Name:     Kaveh Kardan
Admin-Title:    President
Admin-Postal:   Metropolis Graphics Ltd.
                P.O. Box 880
                Place du Parc
                Montreal, Quebec
                H2W 2P5
Admin-Phone:    +1 (514) 842 6172
Admin-Fax:      +1 (514) 842 6172
Admin-Mailbox:  kaveh@Metropolis.QC.CA
Tech-Name:      Kaveh Kardan
Tech-Title:     President
Tech-Postal:    Metropolis Graphics Ltd.
                P.O. Box 880
                Place du Parc
                Montreal, Quebec
                H2W 2P5
Tech-Phone:     +1 (514) 842 6172
Tech-Fax:       +1 (514) 842 6172
Tech-Mailbox:   kaveh@Metropolis.QC.CA
Location:       45 30 15 N / 73 32 30 W
Forwarder:      Internet:  DNS;
Forwarder:      CDNnet:    none;
Forwarder:      NetNorth:  none;
Forwarder:      UUCP:      altitude (Altitude.CAM.QC.CA) <marc@CAM.ORG>;

Newsgroups: can.domain