From: lord_max@lenny.ces.cwru.edu (Lord Maximilien of Myragorthia)
Newsgroups: alt.irc
Subject: Re: Bots and Common Sense
Date: 28 Jan 93 08:52:09 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University
NNTP-Posting-Host: b62710.student.cwru.edu

In article <1k7i79INNpmp@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> ekb2@po.CWRU.Edu (Ethan K.
Butterfield) writes:

>>[IRC as a MUSH]
>Thanks for mentioning me. Anyways, I would happily take part in a
>IRC/MUD environment. The only problem I see here, well actually two, are
>these:
>
>1) What happens when lots of people get into one room and start talking
>to each other. Like in normal IRC, you'll be flooded and may miss
>messages, have your terminal lock up, or not be able to have a
>conversation with that person you just met.

I'm not saying all 1300 should be in the same room!  Any given room could be
limited in size, not large enough to accomodate more than so many people
(mode +l 50, a good feature).

>2) How do you find people? Well, it's easy to program that in, but how
>do you get there? If you're in "Toronto", and your friend is in "China",
>and you have to traverse rooms to get there, how is it accomplished? The
>only thing i see is that you have to stay in a small area of rooms you
>know. Then you can find your friends, but it lessens your chance of
>contacting other people.

Since we're talking about going from IRC to MUSH-ish, why not provide a
powerful satellite radar system (known as /names or /list) to help you find
people?  And if it's tough to get somewhere, enter a teleporter that can
instantly whisk you across the virtual world.  Since it's all made up, there
is no reason to obey physical laws.  Or forget the idea about rooms being
adjacent to each other, and just work on adding substance to those /actions
first.
	There is also no reason to do all this at once; it can be introduced
gradually, tested, and revised.  It may seem more logical to forget about
revising IRC and just create a whole new MUSH...but how will that ever get
started?  Organizing *another* global network environment to go alongside the
IRC?  Almost hopelessly difficult.  Seems much easier to work with something
that is already in place.

>>>[stuff on owning channels]
>Hmmmmm....personal vendetta? Well, you must remember Greg, that channel
>op is a privilege, not a right. I know just what you used ops for...I
>think the system of scaled channel ops could work. I'd like to see you
>program it, however...

Channel op is a privilege, yes, but it ought to be distributed fairly and
democratically.  Well, I don't really want to go off on this tangent here,
since I don't see how it could possibly be constructive--it would only start
another flame war.  (If anyone has anything personal to say, send me an e-
mail message; I'll cheerfully reply.)  As for the programming, it wouldn't be
difficult at all to implement it in the code.  The rules regarding channel
op are extremely simple as it stands; the server protocol is straight-
forward.  The difficulty is in deciding what new rules to implement and all 
the details involved.

>>>[stuff on owning and registering nicks]
>Obviously, this would save a lot of time and stress, and would eliminate
>the impotent NickServ. NickServ is a good idea, with without the power
>to back it up, it's worthless. I have personally ignored the "This nick
>is registered to xxx" message repeatedly. Either this "register for
>access" idea, or possibly a KILL command in its programming.

Someone here on alt.irc suggested adding /kill to NickServ a while back, and 
the response from everyone else was a resounding NO.  I wouldn't support 
such a move either, at least until there is some better way to definitely 
identify users.

>>>[the inevitability of mode wars; how could they be accomodated]
>Mode wars are a hideous waste of bandwidth, but there are those people
>out there that just get on IRC to "flex their muscles", and show just
>how much of a stud they really are. There's nothing you can do about
>that; it's human nature. Maybe set aside two or three designated "Mode
>Wars" channels, just like the #hot___ channels are sort of now.

Sadly, even when no one from a given server is on a given channel, mode
messages must be sent to that server as well, and so things get slowed down
everywhere.  If you can't take the tiger out of the jungle, or the jungle out
of the tiger, maybe you can plant some more trees, to accomodate more tigers.
OK, bad analogy, but you see what I'm getting at?  Rather than trying to get
everyone to be peaceful toward everyone else, or take away all the firepower,
find some arrangement that will keep the wars from disturbing the civilians.

>>>[ircrcs and bots and aliases and modules and dumb bot writers]
>Again, bots really aren't needed if you've got a good .ircrc file. I
>came up with a sort of comparison: There are bots, and users, but
>someone with a .ircrc file that acts like a bot, but still is a human
>controller (sort of like augmented reflexes. See where I'm headed?), is
>like a cyborg. Human mind, computer reflexes. The ON command is powerful
>enough to allow this. That's the way I'm set up.

One of my modules is an "on mode +b <anything matching myself>" deal.  I load
it in my .ircrc as well as my bots.  Anyone who bans me gets kicked and 
banned, and then the ban on myself is revoked--all assuming I have chop at
the time.  Quite often this occurs while I'm in midsentence, so that I don't
even notice what happened until a few seconds later.  Sharpened reflexes,
indeed.  (I seem to recall *you* being the victim of this particular reflex
one time...?)

>Just thought I'd add my two cents. I like IRC as a way to meet people. I
>got over the "My term is better than yours!!!" long ago. Till we meet in
>cyberspace.
>
>I am Primus_I. Just thought you'd like to know that.

I know that.  I know it all too well.  I've seen your sorry ass around so 
often that I go into convulsions just thinking about your nauseating 
presence and that irritating way you have of completely ruining my life. 
That's right you lowlife--don't you see you are turning my entire existence 
into one huge HELL?  You Spawn of Satan, you worthless excrement deposit, 
you son-of-a-Vogon, you Dgrunti belly-licker, just get the hell away from me 
and maintain a generous distance so that I can begin to *breathe* once the 
air has cleared of the horrible stench.  You'll get yours... oh yes, you'll 
get yours, my friend.  Watch your back!!

>-- 
>Ethan K. Butterfield, Pope of the Holy Discordian Church of Anarcho-
>Metaphysics, Order of the Salmon Reich.    Hail Eris!!!
>"I tell you: One must still have Chaos in order to give birth
> to a dancing star!"  -Nietzsche

P.S.  See you at lunch tomorrow, dude.

*** ACTION: Lord_Max grins at Primus_I.
                                        Greg Meyers
                                        Lord_Max
                                        meyers@alpha.ces.cwru.edu
|\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
|  This is, of course, completely impossible.                          |
|  What are you gonna do, bleed on me?                                 |
|  Leave the nite-light on inside the Birdhouse in your Soul.          |
|  The next sentence is true.  The previous sentence is false.         |
|  If you want something done right, kill Baldrich before you start.   |
|  This .sig is just six lines long.                                   |
 \/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\|
Newsgroups: alt.irc