HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rberlin@birdland.Eng.Sun.COM (Rich Berlin)
Subject: Re: Women's and men's views of risk
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: SunPics -- A Sun Microsystems Business
Date: 12 Jan 93 22:30:16 GMT
	<1ikvl6$95s@agate.berkeley.edu>

In article <1ikvl6$95s@agate.berkeley.edu> banksie@khantazi.welly.gen.nz writes:

   Why? Well because I like to think I am a person whom people can
   easily either get along with or tolerate. The fact that someone has
   deliberately seeked *me* out and caused harm to me would make me
   wonder what I did wrong to cause this. It matters little that the
   attack may have been random, I would always have a nagging doubt
   that it was something *I* did that somehow caused this.

   I don't beleive my view is common among men but I do believe,
   perhaps wrongly, that it is common among women. (If some of our
   women readers could confirm this please.)

It may not be common among "all men," but it is nearly universal among
the men I have met in the course of group therapy.  I am inclined to
believe that it is a normal human response to repeated, unfair and
inexplicable victimization, especially when it's clear that such
things happen often to some of you and rarely, if ever, to others.

-- Rich

--
===============================================================================
Richard.Berlin@Eng.Sun.COM 	    SunPics engineering		 (415) 336-5126

	If I participate, knowingly or otherwise, in my sister's
	oppression and she calls me on it, to answer her anger with my
	own only blankets the substance of our exchange with reaction.
	It wastes energy I need to join with her.  And yes, it is very
	difficult to stand still and to listen to another woman's voice
	delineate an agony I do not share, or even one in which I myself
	may have participated.  -- Audre Lorde

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From: levine@symcom.math.uiuc.edu (Lenore Levine)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Paglia and Dworkin
Date: 5 Jan 1993 02:47:01 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
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I am so tired of Camille Paglia and Andrea Dworkin; of their media
grandstanding, and their inability to relate feminism to the realities 
of daily life. 

I therefore suggest that instead of appearing on talk shows, 
these two women contend together in the arena of professional
wrestling. (I invite suggestions for their costumes.)

They would, thus, for once in their life, do us ordinary women a favor
-- providing us with (hopefully) many hours of entertainment.

Lenore Levine


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From: mvwjf@mvgpf.att.COM
Subject: Re: Mid-30s men
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: AT&T
Date: 12 Jan 93 22:01:34 GMT

In article <1iiq10$gk7@agate.berkeley.edu> kathryn@Apple.COM (Kathryn Vandiver) writes:
>okay, okay.... Why is it that every now and then I meet a mid-30's
>man who thinks he's going to marry the poor unmarried woman.

Stuff deleted

>It seems to me that both guys have the idea that they are thinking
>that they can marry any unmarried woman to 'save her' from being
>single.  Maybe the divorced woman likes being on her own after so
...
>What ever happened to love and passion?  Why do these to guys feel
>so compeled to 'up and marry' any 'suitable' woman? For crying-out-
>loud, it's not like we live in the wild-west of the 1800's where
>people married for convenience. It just seems so strange to me that
>they think friendship can create marriage.  I know that many couples
..........

Actually I think it's kind of a rationalization. A guy's not married,
not doing anything about it, but makes himself feel better by saying
"Oh, I could get married anytime to any of these handy women, I'm just
too busy with other things right now." I know a man about 32 who's quite
heavy and admits he won't date because of his weight. He always talks
about losing weight but never does. He has the same attitude. When you
get a little older pick a woman, have kids, etc. That was fine when he
was 22 but he won't face up to the fact that things aren't going to
change unless he does something about it. There's a song I like, don't
know the title but it's got lines in it like "I feel her breath in my
face, her body close to me, she's outta my league". There's one line
in there like "Can't think of anything I've got that she needs".
Interesting thought for a man. Why WOULD this woman want me? What HAVE
I got that she might want, need, etc.  Can be tough on the old ego.



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From: Tom Lord <lord+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: men crossing the street at night to avoid frightening women
Date: 6 Jan 1993 06:01:47 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
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    Even worse, trying to convince men [....] is therefore unconstitutional!

The post is a joke, right?

    How many people would sit still if we decided to keep the Blacks or Chicanos
    away from the banks because most bank robberies (at least here in LA)
    are committed by those particular groups, and we wanted those women
    behind the teller windows to feel more secure? 

Schematicly, that's:

   men walking down the street : women they encounter 
:: 
   (stereo)typically underclass racial `minorities' : banks

Interesting.

    I have every right to walk the shortest distance between two points. 

I guess this is also in the constitution, right?


    THEIR problem
    we decided
    we wanted

What's all this ``we'' shit?  You gotta frog in your pocket?

-t

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From: bob1@cos.com (Bob Blackshaw)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Someone Convince Me
Date: 12 Jan 1993 21:26:29 GMT
Organization: Corporation for Open Systems
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In <1993Jan10.61326.820@ms.uky.edu> randy@ms.uky.edu (Randy Appleton) writes:

>Many people here seem to feel that pornogrophy harms women.   I've
>never agreed with this in part because I've never understood the
>arguments involved.  I've found following the debate on this subject
>in this group unenlightening.

Don't know of any articles, but I have the feeling that the word is
being used too broadly in this thread. Pornography, to my simple
mind is that which portrays women (and children) being *used*, and
I don't see any particular value in it. Erotica is where the
participants are just that - they are participating and one assumes
enjoying whatever is taking place. Some quite well known literary
and artistic notables have written or painted erotica, women as well
as men. The Vatican is reputed to have a warehouse full of it (just
to protect the proles).

As to whether pornography causes all the evils laid at its door, I
doubt we will ever know. Whether the creators of this stuff take
part willingly, is irrelevant, to my mind. It is the depiction of
women and children as objects that I dislike and see no value in.
As to the experts opinions - I take those with a grain of salt, even
in scientific and related fields. In the field of simply living, I've
found my own opinions to be more valuable to me. They probably won't
be worth a plugged nickel to you, but that's as it should be, since
you were given a brain just like I was.

>I would like someone to please send me an article that would convince
>me in a scholorly and logical way that porn does have this effect.
>Alternativly, I would like someone to please send me a reference that
>I could look up at the local public library.

>Many thanks

For whatever value you place on it, you are welcome.

>Randy

The Old Grouch.

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From: mara@Panix.Com (Mara Chibnik)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: men crossing the street at night to avo
Date: 6 Jan 1993 18:22:14 GMT
Organization: (getting there)
Distribution: world
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andyw@meaddata.com (Andy Welter) writes:

 >Seems kind of silly to me... if I were a woman and a man crossed the street 
 >to obviously avoid me, I'd probably either confused or insulted.  And if I
 >were a black woman, I'd probably assume that it was someone who was 
 >stereotypically afraid of a black face.

I am a white woman.  If a man crossed the street to avoid me-- that
is, to avoid frightening me-- I might never realize it.  If I did
I'd be delighted.  I cannot say what a woman of color, and in
particular a black woman, would say, but I maintain that Andy Welter
(whose race I don't know) doesn't either.

Please note, not so much Andy but those men who look upon this
discussion as though women were "demanding" that men cross away from
them at night, that I (at least) am not at all "demanding" this.
I'm saying that it reduces stress for me, and that I like when it
happens.  I like when people remember my birthday, too, which isn't
the same as demanding that they send me a card.


-- 

  Mara Chibnik
  mara@panix.com                Life is too important to be taken seriously.



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From: djohns@elm.circa.ufl.EDU ("David A. Johns")
Subject: Re: Pornography a *male* interest
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: University of Florida, Gainesville
Date: 12 Jan 93 21:55:23 GMT

In article <1iaft3INNipo@agate.berkeley.edu> lisad@zoo.toronto.edu writes:

# Another point that may be lost here is that pornography (IMHO) is
# of a degrading nature.  I don't believe that Harlequin's fall into
# this category either.

Could you try to define for me what "degrading" means and how one
identifies degrading images?

For instance, why is a film depicting a couple going through their
sexual repetoire degrading, while a novel treating men as saviors,
pillars of strength, sources of income, etc., is not?

David Johns


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From: bob1@cos.COM (Bob Blackshaw)
Subject: Re: Mythopoetic ritual (a possibly Very Weird topic)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: Corporation for Open Systems
Date: 12 Jan 93 22:58:56 GMT

[Moderators Note: Excessive included text trimmed --CTM]

In <1it2sd$qma@agate.berkeley.edu> uunet!infmx!hartman@ncar.UCAR.EDU (Robert Hartman) writes:

>In article <C0JytG.AHH.1@cs.cmu.edu> tp0x+@cs.cmu.edu (Thomas Price) writes:
>>I apologize, but I'll have to quote an awful lot for context.
>>
>>>>>>Me again, on the subject of reclaiming sexuality.  In the book
>>>>>>"Women Respond to the Men's Movement" p. 4, Ursula LeGuin writes
>>>>>>about a gathering she was at where Robert Bly told her, "The
>>>>>>Men have raised a Great Phallus farther up the river. ... I'd

Well, they have erected on in Seattle (The Needle?) and one in
Toronto (the CN Tower), and neither is off limits to anyone so
far as I am aware. :-)

Sorry, I couldn't resist. Am I the only one who finds all this type
of behavior somewhat akin to pre-teen kids giggling over the
National Geographic?

The Old Grouch.
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From: seid@paxvax.EE.CORNELL.EDU (Steve Seidman)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: RE: Paglia and Dworkin
Date: 5 Jan 1993 19:53:26 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
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	Subject: Paglia and Dworkin

>Lenore Levine requests some information about a proposed sporting event:

	>I therefore suggest that instead of appearing on talk shows, 
	>these two women contend together in the arena of professional
	>wrestling. (I invite suggestions for their costumes.)
	               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	               well, you asked for it!
	
	I only know about these two writers through their
books, and I'm not directly acquainted with their electronic-media
personae and granstanding.  (Coincidentally, I happen to be reading
"Intercourse" right now, and will soon get around to post another
of my (in)famous review/rants)

	So, based on my limited perspective on these two characters,
who most definitely do belong in a ring together, I suggest:
	
1) Dworkin:  simple peasant costume worn by Christian martyrs during
   Roman times (like she's about to be a lions lunch)
   I think her perspective on religions is *so* saturated with a 
   Christian outlook its distorting, and I'll bet she doesn't even
   realize it.  (Her chapters dealing with Jewish law are a pack
   of Christian stereotypes)

2) Paglia:  this is an easy one.  She writes about her own childhood
   halloween costumes, which (after her first halloween) were always
   "tranvestite", like Napoleon (can't recall the rest).
   Other obvious choices would be: a gladiator (to slay the Christian),
   Ceasar, Caligula, Nero, S&M costume, gay-male-leather costume,
   Madonna (too vanilla and expected), Oscar Wilde, Marquis de Sade,
   Sigmund Freud, a drag queen, a deisel-dyke costume, Sharon Stone
   in Basic Instinct, fussy-old blue-stocking eccentric-professor,
   eccentric-Auntie Mame (it's her favorite book for post WWII),
   Nefertiti, Androgenous King David, Liberace, Elvis, Laurence of
   Arabia, Apollo, Mae West, Joan Crawford, Bette Davis, Marlene
   Deitrich, modernized Marilyn Monroe, Judy Garland (or any host
   of other gay-male icons), turbo-bitch from hellllll, Andy Warhol,
   Robert Maplethorpe, Hugh Hefner, Bob Gucione (nice Italian),
   Valerie Solanas (she shot Andy Warhol), Neitsche (hard to recognize)
   The Godfather, A butch-Joan of Arc, a femme-dominatrix/alice in
   B&D-wonderland, Myra Breckinridge, Annie Sprinkle (Sex-goddess), 
   and last but not least, a lioness (to eat the martyr:-)
 
  .....hope this helps ;-)

SteveS
seid@ee.cornell.edu



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From: goid@zooid.guild.ORG (Will Steeves)
Subject: Good Looks => Perception of Virtues?
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Date: 12 Jan 93 22:01:09 GMT

levine@symcom.math.uiuc.edu (Lenore Levine) writes...
>Will Steeves <goid@zooid.guild.org> writes:

>(re Prince Charles)
>In any case, there are a great many upper class men who are *only*
>interested in beautiful women, who go out with a great *many* of them,
>who obviously are treating them like blow-up dolls. My point was
>that if Prince Charles had been one of these men, the media would
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>have treated him with more respect. Don't you think this *is* an
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>example of shaming men's sexuality?

Hmmm, that's a good question.  Myself, I'd answer that I am not
entirely sure that Prince Charles would get any (more?) respect from
being associated with a bevy of possessors of feminine pulchritude.
Why?  I think that he'd receive as much condemnation as Sarah, if it
could be *proven* that he was having affairs.  Again, I'm not
convinced that it is their gender that is important, but their level
of "faithfulness" to each other, which is somewhat of a "requirement"
for royalty (though admittedly they frequently break it).

>I also notice that many men are more willing to attribute depth of
>character and goodness of spirit to a beautiful women (whether they
>are involved with her or not), and not to an unattractive one.

Perhaps, but I do not think that this trait is solely the province of
men.  I have also seen some of my women friends imputing some *very*
nebulous traits about famous male actors who also happen to be
considered among "the world's sexiest men".

>I will give you the respect of assuming you are not one of them.

Thank you.  The thought is much appreciated.

Indeed, how *could* I be "one of them"?  Even though I hated what my
former partner did, (if anyone needs a refresher, I would be pleased
to provide one) which hurt me for over two years (and often never goes
away, I have heard, and am beginning to realise myself...), I can
still say that she was good looking.  That more or less proves that
I'm not going out of my way to imbue her with good qualities, solely
upon her looks.  (Oh, she has good qualities, but in light of the
death threats which I received from her, it's rather difficult to see
them...)

---
Will Steeves, goid@zooid.guild.org                      "Neil Hull is GOiD"
ZOOiD BBS, Toronto, Ontario - The Zoo Of Ids            "GOiDS Rule"
(416) 322-7876

"Gravity: It's more than just a fragrance.  It's the LAW!"
   - Will Steeves, President, GOiDS "R" We, Inc.

 * SLMR 2.1a * You're only young once.  You're immature forever.

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From: turpin@cs.utexas.edu (Russell Turpin)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Women's and men's safety
Date: 4 Jan 1993 23:06:46 GMT
Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin
Distribution: world
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Summary: Miles, feet, and inches.
Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

-*----
In article <1hsskrINN1pt@meaddata.meaddata.com> andyw@meaddata.COM writes:
>> I think part of the difference in fear about violence between men and
>> women is just a difference in attitude about getting hurt. ...
>> 
>> When you look at things like skydiving, whitewater rafting, bungee
>> jumping, sports you can get hurt playing, etc, men seem to be more
>> tolerant of a given level of risk than women would be.  ...

In article <1993Jan3.114505.15032@monu1.cc.monash.edu.au> pol253b@monu1.cc.monash.edu.au (Ms D Alexander) writes:
> I'm not sure that making a comparison between the fear of injury from
> sporting activities, and the fear of injury which results from acts of
> violence is legitimate.  The two are conceptually miles apart.  ...

I would have said they were only feet apart.  That is, the
two risks have significant commonalities in my mind.  But 
this may be a male thing.  In which case the dialogue moves
back one level of abstraction, where we wonder about the 
importance of men seeing this coupling as close and women
seeing it as distant.



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From: rsrodger@wam.umd.edu (Yamanari)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Pornography and values
Date: 5 Jan 1993 02:18:59 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
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In article <1993Jan2.231050.10912@wam.umd.edu> aap@wam.umd.EDU (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:
>In article <38029@uflorida.cis.ufl.edu> djohns@elm.circa.ufl.EDU ("David A. Johns") writes:
>>One interesting aspect of this debate about pornography is that
>>*interest* in pornography, in our society, at least, is primarily
>>male.  This leaves women in the enviable position of having nothing to
>>lose in the battle to eliminate it.
>
>Even if men are more interested than women in pornography, women are
>the ones who suffer the consequences.  



	Please define these consequences.

	Heres some tired old oft repeated points to start with:

	1.  They objectify women (whatever that means)
	2.  They encourage men to rape (No, they encourage men to masturbate.)
	3.  The encourage men to try sexual positions 
	(oran and anal sex) that are "impossible, painful or unnatural"



> Begining from the ideological
>content of pornographic material, 


	"Ideological content of pornographic material"
	What, "Debbie Does The Proletariat"?


> the way women are used on them, and


	You mean, paid for a few ours of rather trivial labor.
	Primarily, they are paid for their looks.  Interesting how
	the supermodel industry gets much of these same criticisms.



>the effects that pornographic material generates on men who watched
>it, 


	In other words, pornography makes men horny.  This either leads
	to sex, or to masturbation.  Probably a helluva lot more
	of the latter.


>we can see that women do have an interest in pornography, and they
>have something to loose and something to win on this matter.


	The oppression of male views on sexuality.


-- 
      Blaming "society" for your problems is like blaming clouds for rain.
 ---  boycott == coercion == censorship == closed mindedness == cowardice  ---
	      "Psalms 23:1  The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want."  
		Shepherds are for sheep.   -----      Pain teaches.


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