From: dadams@cherry.cray.com (David Adams)
Subject: Sourdough mailing digest April 9 92
Followup-To: dadams@cherry.cray.com
Originator: dadams@cherry
Keywords: digest sourdough
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 10 Apr 92 15:58:21 CDT


Here are some more excerpts from the sourdough mailing list digest:


DATE: 04/06/92
TIME: 10:01:17
Subject: milk & sourdough starter

From: kowtko@cogsci.edinburgh.ac.uk

Two points:  (1.) lactobacilli < milk, (2.) Sunset starter success

1.
Lactobacilli are simply lactic bacteria.  Lactic means "of milk," and
lactic acid is "the acid found in sour milk." (Oxford Dictionary)
Therefore, if your starter has lactobacilli, it stands to reason that
at some point, milk was used as an ingredient.

>   Once your culture is going nicely, feed it only flour and water
>(preferrably distilled).  Anything else may kill it.

I think the real reason is that anything else may ruin the flavor.
New bacteria (feeding on new milk) will change the flavor.

2.
A while ago, I remember reading that nobody had been able to get
the Sunset starter working.  I've made the starter from scratch
and successfully baked a couple of batches of loaves.  The last
loaf (which I let rise the longest time:  24 + 12 hrs. in a warm
room) tasted the sourest, and had the consistency of San Francisco
round sourdough bread (Boudin? or Parisian?).  The familiar flavor
was worth all the effort involved.

For those who want to make their own starter, this is a synopsis
of the recipe from the Sunset Favorite Recipes cookbook.  I think this
recipe uses yogurt merely to quicken the process.

	1 cup skim milk, heated to warm temperature (~45 sec in microwave)
        3 Tblsp plain yogurt
	1 cup flour
   Mix warm milk into yogurt, cover tightly (I use glass with cling film)
   and place in a warm spot for 6-8 hours, until milk becomes set, like
   French set yogurt.  If it turns pink, something's wrong -- start over.
   Then mix in the flour.  (Don't worry about lumps.  The bacteria
   break them up.)  Cover the mixture and put it in a warm spot for
   2-6 days, until bubbly and sour smelling.  Then move it into the
   refrigerator.  When baking bread, remove the starter from the fridge
   the night before, to let it drop to room temp.

   For every amount of starter you put into a recipe, add equal amounts
   EACH of warm milk and flour back to the reduced starter.  Let bubble
   in a warm spot for a few hours and return to refrigerator.  Using the
   same brand of milk will keep the FLAVOR of your starter consistent.

   The book claims that the starter takes about 6 MONTHS to mature.
   Before that time, Sunset recommends making their pancakes -- a
   failsafe recipe for a starter that might not rise enough.

Jacqueline

	
>Lactobacilli are simply lactic bacteria.  Lactic means "of milk," and
>lactic acid is "the acid found in sour milk." (Oxford Dictionary)
>Therefore, if your starter has lactobacilli, it stands to reason that
>at some point, milk was used as an ingredient.

	How do we explain the pressence of lactobacilli in the 
	fermentation processes of brine curing pickles, sauerkraut,
	and borsch?  The thing that has always been so mysterious to 
	me about these pickling processes is that we add no culture 
	to get the process going.  We must be relying on lactobacilli 
	which are already ON the vegetables or in the soil?  I get 
	the idea that lactobacilli is so named because it was first 
	discovered or isolated in milk cultures, not because it comes 
	from milk.  So my question is, will that yogurt that didn't
	turn out quite right help get the compost heap going?  Stay
	tunned...

DATE: 04/06/92
TIME: 11:26:28
Subject: Where does lactobacilli come from?

From: crs@beta.lanl.gov (Charlie Sorsby)

My conjecture is that lactobacili are simply the bacteria that
*cause* milk to sour.  That does not, to my mind, preclude their
existance elsewhere or doing other things nor does it suggest that
they, necessarily, originate in the milk.

Charlie
	crs@lanl.gov


DATE: 04/06/92
TIME: 14:08:44
Subject: Re: Where does lactobacilli come from?

From: KRS124@PSUVM.PSU.EDU


I believe that lactobacillus is also one of the many little creatures
responsible for the Belgian styles of ales - lambic comes to mind.  It is an
extremely sour beverage, and is usually flavored with raspberries
(framboise) cherry (kriek) or peaches (peche?).  Very delicious, but quite
expensive.  Yeasts which ferment it are not cultured - they are wild, and a
character of the particular brewery which brews the beer.

Just some $.02!  And I'm still looking for that lost recipe for Amish
friendship cake (which got me interested in this group!).  I will check at
home this weekend!

Happy risings!


Kurt Smith
KRS124@PSUVM.PSU.EDU
DATE: 04/06/92
TIME: 14:11:51
Subject: Re: Where does lactobacilli come from?

From: KRS124@PSUVM.PSU.EDU


I believe that lactobacillus is also one of the many little creatures
responsible for the Belgian styles of ales - lambic comes to mind.  It is an
extremely sour beverage, and is usually flavored with raspberries
(framboise) cherry (kriek) or peaches (peche?).  Very delicious, but quite
expensive.  Yeasts which ferment it are not cultured - they are wild, and a
character of the particular brewery which brews the beer.

Just some $.02!  And I'm still looking for that lost recipe for Amish
friendship cake (which got me interested in this group!).  I will check at
home this weekend!

Happy risings!


Kurt Smith
KRS124@PSUVM.PSU.EDU
DATE: 04/07/92
TIME: 10:36:18
Subject: Re: Where does lactobacilli come from?

From: abirenbo@rigel.hac.com (Aaron Birenboim)

Kurt Smith mentioned that lactobacilli are used in some belgian
beers.  Yes, lambic is one.  It uses Pediococcus cerevescae,
lambicus, and other species of genus Pediococcus.  One
popular lactobacillus in yogurt is Lactobacillus bulgaricus
(or delbreuckii).  This lactobacillus is also found
growing naturally on wheat and barley.  We are most likely
using is in our starters.  L. Delbreuckii is used
in the souring of berlin-style wheat beers (berliner weisse).

I hear that L. Delbreuckii and Bulgaricus are the same,
they just got different names since some were discovered
in milk (bulgaricus), and others are found on grains
(delbreuckii).

   aaron

DATE: 04/07/92
TIME: 10:41:54
Subject: Austrian sourdough

From: Tom Molnar <molnar@utcs.utoronto.ca>

Hi, I activated my Austrian starter and was pleased with the resulting
flavour.  I had been using a starter that I made from commercial yeast, and
the difference between the one I made and the one I got from SI is amazing.
The smell was the first tip off, the Austrian starter smell was much nicer,
more inviting than the one I made.   I made a simple oatmeal bread from
Wood's book (I know, I used a yukon recipe, but what the heck...) and
I like the flavour.  The bread didn't rise as high as I expected though,
I wonder why.  I use flour I grind myself, so it is 100% whole wheat, or rye.
Bread I make from this batch of flour usually rises well with commercial
yeast.  Does sourdough gain leaving power with use? Or did the oatmeal
slow things down?  Or should I be using the Russian culture since it is claimed
to handle whole wheat well?

Speaking of the Russian, would someone be willing to share their Russian
with me?  The catch is that I'm in Canada, and while I'd be happy to
send a SASE, I can't find U.S. postage.  I'd be happy to send enough
cash to cover the cost of stamps if someone would be willing to go to
the trouble of buying the stamps for me.  Alternatively, I'd be happy to
share my Austrian starter with someone in return for the Russian...

Regards,
Tom


Editor:
	I always experience more difficulty getting sourdough whole
	grain to rise than commercial yeast.  I suppose I need more
	practice.  I have only used the Russian culture with whole
	wheat.  I tried the loaf for learning from "Laures's Kitchen 
	Bread Book", and after two successes with commercial yeast
	I decided to try to modify it to use my Russian culture.  It
	turned out to be a dense brick.  The problem may have been
	that I didn't use my culture for a long time and it needed 
	to grow more and "freshen up".  I am going to try using 
	the Austrian culture now.



DATE: 04/07/92
TIME: 10:55:32
Subject: Batter Breads

From: Lawrence Allen Hite <lah1l@dayhoff.med.Virginia.EDU>

A while ago someone (don't remember who) wrote in asking about batter
breads and why anyone would want to make one.  This weekend I made the
caraway cheese batter bread from _World Sourdoughs of Antiquity_.  It was 
really pretty good.  Batter breads are quicker than regular breads because
they are not kneaded and only have one rising.  The final product (at least
in this case) is somewhat heavy but still contains the air pockets of
regular bread.  You might say that the consistency of batter bread is to
bread what pound cake is to cake (denser, moister).  You just mix all the
ingredients together and pour the batter in a greased loaf pan and let it
rise.  I *do* recommend that you put a sheet of aluminum foil on the rack
below the pan, as my loaf overran the pan considerably (about a cup and a
half's worth).  Here's the recipe:

Cheese Batter Bread

2 C. starter
1/2 C. Milk
2 Tbs. melted butter
1 tsp. salt
2 Tbs. sugar
2 tsp. caraway seeds
1/2 tsp. garlic powder (I would use at least 1 tsp., but that's just me.)
2 eggs
3 C. white flour
1 C. grated cheddar cheese

Melt butter, add milk, salt and sugar.  Stir to dissolve, then cool to 85F.
Add to starter and mix well.  Beat eggs and mix with starter along with
caraway seeds and garlic powder.  Blend in flour and cheese.  Pour
into a greased loaf pan (the pan should be filled to within about 1/2 to
1 inch from the top) and allow to rise about 1 to 2 hours until the
batter is about even with the top of the pan.  Bake at 350F 45 minutes to 1
hour until done (I used a large glass loaf pan and it took an hour).  Cool
about 10 minutes in the pan, then remove and cool the loaf on a wire rack.

I also tried out the "Loaf for Learning" exercise in the _Laurel's Kitchen
Bread Book_.  It was very informative, and the loaf of bread that I made is
easily the nicest looking loaf I've ever turned out.  I would recommend the
book if anyone wants a book on basic technique.

Larry Hite
lah1l@virginia.edu

DATE: 04/07/92
TIME: 12:45:50
Subject: Re:  milk & sourdough starter

From: Beverly Erlebacher <bae@utcs.utoronto.ca>

> Editor:
> 	
> >From: kowtko@cogsci.edinburgh.ac.uk
> >
> >Lactobacilli are simply lactic bacteria.  Lactic means "of milk," and
> >lactic acid is "the acid found in sour milk." (Oxford Dictionary)
> >Therefore, if your starter has lactobacilli, it stands to reason that
> >at some point, milk was used as an ingredient.
> 
> 	How do we explain the pressence of lactobacilli in the 
> 	fermentation processes of brine curing pickles, sauerkraut,
> 	and borsch?  The thing that has always been so mysterious to 
> 	me about these pickling processes is that we add no culture 
> 	to get the process going.  We must be relying on lactobacilli 
> 	which are already ON the vegetables or in the soil?  I get 
> 	the idea that lactobacilli is so named because it was first 
> 	discovered or isolated in milk cultures, not because it comes 
> 	from milk. 

The sugar in milk is called lactose, it is a dimer of glucose and galactose,
just as sucrose is a dimer of glucose and fructose.  There is an organic
acid called lactic acid.  While it is a product of lactose oxidation, it
also appears in many other biochemical reactions.  For example, the burning
sensation you get in your muscles after intense effort is probably caused
by a buildup of lactic acid as your muscles derive energy from incomplete
metabolism of sugars - incomplete because your blood can't deliver oxygen 
to the muscles fast enough to let the oxidation to carbon dioxide go to
completion.  (The burning sensation fades as you catch your breath.)

Lactobacilli are microaerophilic, i.e. they like some but not a lot of oxygen
to be around.  They oxidize sugars only part way, to lactic acid, which they
excrete.  Lactobacilli of various kinds are ubiquitous, they are always around
to take advantage of a suitable substrate.  We may or may not like the results.

>	So my question is, will that yogurt that didn't
> 	turn out quite right help get the compost heap going?  Stay
> 	tunned...

Well, it will certainly add nitrogen to the heap, which will help it get
going if it doesn't have enough.  I'd bury it a bit, to avoid odours. :-)
Dunno if those particular strains would be happy in compost, but lack of
suitable bacteria is not likely to be a limiting factor.

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