HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lis@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu (Elisabeth Riba)
Subject: Re: Saturday Night Review - "Chain of Command Part II"
Organization: Brandeis University
Distribution: rec
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 03:22:42 GMT

ph9991_manfr@rivers.acc.uwrf.edu writes:

>> 
>  PM> SPOILERS ahead for "Chain of Command Part II"
 
>>  PM> SPOILERS!  -Do not cross the Cardassian border
 
>> 
>> I think you missed the point about the lights thing.  It's called
...
>> And then the lights thing -- that was all another brainwashing tactic.
>> It's used all the time and is an important element of reverse
>> psychology.  "How many lights do you see?  Four?  NO FIVE!  FIVE
>> LIGHTS!"  And don't you get the irony?  At the end, Gul Madred gave
>> Picard a choice of either freedom of torture.  All he had to do was
>> answer that there were five lights.
>> And in the end, he was so driven and convinced that there INDEED were
>> FIVE LIGHTS that he was going to SAY that there were FIVE LIGHTS.  Gul
>> Madred got to him so hard that he was going to crack.  And Gul Madred
>> knew that it was too late -- if only he could have got to him sooner.
>> However, Picard got to GUL MADRED first.
>> It was a beautiful episode and I can't see why you didn't like it.

>No, you missed my point, or perhaps I didn't make it as clear as I should
>have.  I did get the idea behind the four/five/ (three sir!) lights, and
>I got it the very first time it was used.  That was my problem, that it
>was too obvious.  Too easy.  It also has no science *fiction* in it at all,
>since that is something that is known and understood rather well today.  

Oh, come on--the first time Picard was asked about the lights, I saw
the rather blatant SF reference:
				"What is 2 + 2?"

The parallel to Orwell's _1984_ and the torture there made it much
more chilling, and gave me some horrid ideas for what might have
happened when Picard was off-camera.
-- 
--------------->Elisabeth Anne Riba * lis@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu<---------------
   Do not meddle in the affairs	    |  Usenet is like Tetris for people
   of cats, for they are subtle     |  who still remember how to read.
   and will piss on your computer.  |	  So many newsgroups, so little time...
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
From: aaron@serss0 (aaron)
Subject: Re: Troi is capable of wearing a uniform (SPOILERS)
Reply-To: aaron@fiu.edu  (Stanley!) 
Organization: Florida International University, Miami
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 19:35:36 GMT
Disclaimer: all comments are solely my remarks...

To set the stage, Mr. Nicholson-Owens makes the point that Marina Sirtis is
in some discomfort as Deanna Troi.

	In honesty, I had realised this as a possibility, but had not known
t for its actuality when I made my comments in a previous reply.  This
makes the *real* reason for her style of dress much more likely to be the
wordly one (i.e. 'sex sells'). 
	HOwever, it still does not invalidate the points made about the 
*character* of Troi, herself, as opposed the actress playing that
character, and I think that it is in that context, as much as the real
person of Sirtis, that we need to consider, dealing as we are with a
fictional show.
	Maybe there are those who do not wish to believe it (I am not one
of them), but there *are* women with Troi's type of figure.  Maybe they are
somewhat artificially put together on the inside, but I cannot invalidate
what my own eyes have seen.  To such a person, such an outfit may well be
comfortable.  And even more so, the vanity issue would come into play for
such a person.

Maybe it makes me sound something of a monster to say these things in this
manner, but I think the rational view here is quite valid, whether I
*agree* with the reasoning or not.  In reality, I do not; I would
personally prefer to see Troi in uniform 100% of the time, just as I
expected after seeing the premier episode of the show.  I believe it was a
mistake to ever take her out of the outfit she was wearing at the time.
But just because they didn't leave her in uniform, because they did put her
into the something which they did, does not mean that there are logical and
rational reasons behind the character of Troi herself for doing so.  And
this is what I'm attempting to point out . . .
 
Regards,

StanleY!
aaron@fiu.edu

Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
From: rawdon@colby.cs.wisc.edu (Michael Rawdon)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
Subject: Re: End of TNG Series?
Date: 2 Jan 93 17:25:13 GMT
Reply-To: rawdon@colby.cs.wisc.edu
Organization: University of Wisconsin Computer Sciences Dept., Madison, WI

In <41800012@hplvec.LVLD.HP.COM> gvg@hplvec.LVLD.HP.COM (Greg Goebel) writes:
>It's been a long time since I've been on any trek groups, so I may be
>missing some common knowledge ... a pal passed back a rumor that CHAIN OF
>COMMAND was the end of the TNG series.

>Confirm or deny?  Any info on prospects for a season of TNG next year?

Deny; THIS season isn't over yet (or even half-done).  New episodes will
appear the week of January 25th, as I recall.

-- 
Michael Rawdon				  rawdon@colby.cs.wisc.edu
University of Wisconsin Computer Sciences Department,  Madison, WI
( Now in the Boston, Massachusetts area! )

    "What about you, Captain?" Krill asked.  "Do you seek death, or do you
run away from it?
    "Neither," Kiroth answered.  "Death seeks me.  It will find me in time.  
To run is simply a waste of energy.  To embrace death is sheer madness.  I 
await death.  When it comes, I will be ready."
    "To fight, or to flee?"
    Kiroth looked at his XO with barely contained horror.  "To die."
		- "Escape From The Holdfast", by Jim Hart; Captain's Log #8
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
From: rhudson@author.gsfc.nasa.gov (Ronald Hudson)
Subject: Re: Riker being a Jerk...
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  
Organization: CSC System Sciences Division
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 13:15:00 GMT

In article <ewright.725756858@convex.convex.com>, ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright) writes...
>In <30DEC199213330062@author.gsfc.nasa.gov> rhudson@author.gsfc.nasa.gov (Ronald Hudson) writes:
> 
> 
>>The bottom line is there was just no point even considering a rescue 
>>mission given the current situation.  
> 
>The "current situation" changes rapidly in the heat of battle.  The
>Enterprise should have had a rescue plan ready in case the situation
>changed, making it possible/desireable to implement a rescue.  
> 
The "current situation" does change rapidly, and a good commander must
be able to quickly to assess that change and create opportunity from
it.  Jelico did exactly that.  He had a good understanding not only of
his situation but of the bigger picture (which you obviously do not).
In the final analysis Picard was expendable, Riker even alluded to that
himself.
> 
>>What you have to remember (and anyone who has been in the military can
>>vouch for this) is a commander has to competent, they do not have to
>>be liked.  
> 
>Failing to have a contingency plan is not a sign of competence.
> 
True, but having a contingency plan for matters that are not part of
your situation is a sure sign of incompetence.
> 
..........................................................................
 Ronald Hudson, Computer Sciences Corporation, Laurel, Maryland, USA     .
 rhudson@author.gsfc.nasa.gov                                            .
 "Only weenies need fancy signatures..."                                 .
..........................................................................
From: brown@vidiot.UUCP (Vidiot)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
Subject: Re: star trek: deep space nin
Date: 27 Dec 92 17:50:07 GMT
Reply-To: brown@vidiot.UUCP (Vidiot)
Distribution: rec
Organization: Vidiot's Hangout

In article <1992Dec26.3208.18209@dosgate> "bernie wong" <bernie.wong@canrem.com> writes:
<TO: brown@vidiot.UUCP
<
<I just saw your DS9 logo post and was wondering what to do with it.  My
<dad has a Postscript printer at work and I regularily have him print
<Postscript Encapsuled Files through Windows 3.1.  What do I do with this
<file?  Just cut the message at the tear lines and give it to my dad to
<print like any other file?  Just wondering...

Yep.
-- 
      harvard\                          spool.cs.wisc.edu!astroatc!vidiot!brown
Vidiot  ucbvax!uwvax..........!astroatc!vidiot!brown
      rutgers/            INTERNET:vidiot!brown%astroatc.UUCP@spool.cs.wisc.edu
                                   brown@wi.extrel.com
From: ph9991_manfr@rivers.acc.uwrf.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
Subject: Re: SF in Trek (was Re: Saturday Night Review - "CoCII")
Date: 28 Dec 92 23:08:40 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin - River Falls

> 
> If you want good SF, I suggest you take your TV, sell it, and go to a
> used
> book store. You WILL NOT find *good* SF on TV, maybe ever. I love Trek,
> and I never miss it, but it ain't good science fiction. Some people
> said Relics was good SF, but they screwed up what little science they
> had in it.

This depends severely on what your definition of good science fiction is.
Personally, I'll settle for science fantasy, but the point of the original
review was that even this was not seen in "Chain of Command."

Steven.K.Manfred
From: msaletni@jade.tufts.edu (Michael J. Saletnik)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
Subject: Re: CoC II vs. 1984
Date: 28 Dec 92 16:12:28 GMT
Distribution: rec.arts.startrek.current
Organization: Tufts University - Medford, MA

>almost exactly like '1984'
>saying 2+2=5

I noticed that, too.  In fact, seeing a certain number of lights
reminded me even moreso of seeing 6 fingers on one hand.  In the midst
of O'Brien's torture, he attached a device to Winston's head, and he
could then properly see 6 fingers on his hand.

Fortunately, Picard didn't end up in the Chestnut Street Cafe.

On a side note, did anyone think it was illogical for a Cardassian to
refer to a dug-up object as unEARTHed ???

						Michael

---
--
Michael J. Saletnik, Tufts University E'91 G'93
michael@binkley.ext.tufts.edu msaletni@pearl.tufts.edu
Manager of Computer Resources, Dept. of Civil Engineering
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
From: mlj44080@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Michael Lee Jacobs)
Subject: DS9 on Superstation WGN channel 9 Chicago
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 17:58:05 GMT

I left this as wide distribution because it is about a superstation...

	I just got next week's TV guide and find NO mention of DS9
showing on Jan 3rd at 7 PM as stated in the DS9 channel guide...nor
does it appear to show at all in that week, perhaps it will be on Jan 10th.
	Luckily our local FOX station is still showing at 7 P.M. on the 4th
(Wccu/Wrsp 27/55 for those of you in Illinois)

-- 
"Salam and good evening to you sir.  Welcome to Agribah, land of mystery
of enchantment, and the best deals this side of the river Jordan, come on down"
From: mcelroy@bu.edu (Carl Mackin)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
Subject: Re: Why Data has white face
Date: 24 Dec 92 13:03:07 GMT
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5

>white

Actually it is gold, for what it's worth.
-Mac
From: rawdon@colby.cs.wisc.edu (Michael Rawdon)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
Subject: Re: Saturday Night Review - "Chain of Command Part II" SPOILERS!
Date: 28 Dec 92 06:29:28 GMT
Reply-To: rawdon@colby.cs.wisc.edu
Organization: University of Wisconsin Computer Sciences Dept., Madison, WI

In <1992Dec28.003242.11700@odin.corp.sgi.com> rodb@slugo.corp.sgi.com (Rod Beckwith) writes:
>What a bunch of sniveling overly analytical bedwetters. 

Geez, SGI must be hiring off the street these days, if you're any example!

>Get a life, STTG is a great form of entertainment compared to most of the
>crap that is on TV these days. They do with a million dollars an episode
>what most film makers can't do with 30 million.

That being what, exactly?  Not filming great stories, from what I can tell!

>This just a TV program, lighten up.

Sound advice.  I recommend you take it.

-- 
Michael Rawdon				  rawdon@colby.cs.wisc.edu
University of Wisconsin Computer Sciences Department,  Madison, WI
( Now in the Boston, Massachusetts area! )

"Go?  Where are we going?"
"Where they went."
"Suppose they went nowhere?"
"Then, this will be your big chance to get away from it all."
			- McCoy and Kirk; Star Trek II: The Wrath Of Khan
From: avik@icase.edu (Avik Banerjee)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
Subject: Picards french lines
Date: 28 Dec 1992 16:43:42 GMT
Organization: ICASE/NASA Langley
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: dolphin.icase.edu

so what does it mean?? (for those of us who dont speak french).

> Sur la Mon D'Avignon
> Oni(?) Danson(?)  .... (this is all Picard gets out...)
>
> Oni(?) Danson(?)
> Sur la Mon D'Avignon
> Oni Danson Tu ta round. (Pardon my french... :-)



            ___ __    _ ______  __
           /   || |  / /| || | / /
          / /| || | / / | || |/ /
         / / | || |/ /  | || |\ \
        /_/  |_||___/   |_||_| \_\
  	    @icase.icase.edu
-----------------------------------------------
|"Only the insane have strength to prosper.   |
| Only those that prosper judge what is sane."|
-----------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
From: jackson@ess43.Berkeley.EDU (Jeff Jackson)
Subject: Re: Where are the enlisted personal?
Reply-To: jackson@ess43.Berkeley.EDU (Jeff Jackson)
Organization: Applicon
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 16:43:18 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.162648.42715@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu>, ckt0@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (CHARLES KEITH TESSLER) writes:
|> It seems to me that Starfeet has a lot of Officers and no enlisted personel.
|> I can rember only two one is Chief O'brian (Chiefs are to the navy what
|> sargent's are to the army) a other was a one show charter named chewmen tarces
|> in the epsoed about a possable conspery on the enterprize. If a Lutent  (Warf)
|> is incaharg of securty that meas that all other security personal are suposed to
|> be Ensions or enlisted persionel. That dosn't leave mutch of a chain of
|> command?
|>  
|> -- 
|> 
|>                                   Keith Tessler
|>                                   Id: CKT0@LEHIGH.EDU
|>                                   Tel # (215) 758-1364



         You're at LEHIGH?   What position do you play?


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
   - JWJ      "How long has this bird been dead?"
                  - Worf's brother, "Sins of the Fathers"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rchan@terapin.com (Ronald Chan)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
Subject: Re: Female CO for the E  II
Date: 21 Dec 92 17:32:54 PST
Organization: BBS

 ]If my point isn't clear, I am saying that these women are not quite
 ]the strong females role models breaking the bonds of stereotypes.  
 ]They stay in the typical female domains of nurture and emotion.  It
 ]is better than nothing, but I want to see a woman making political,
 ]diplomatic, tactical, etc decisions with the same authority as Picard. 

True, but if the character of Tasha Yar was allowed to live, it might have
broken the pattern of nurturing female roles.


|| Ronald Chan [rchan@terapin.com]
|| A Pocket Knight  *-{-----------
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
From: ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright)
Subject: Re: Riker being a Jerk...
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 17:33:13 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In <31DEC199208153924@author.gsfc.nasa.gov> rhudson@author.gsfc.nasa.gov (Ronald Hudson) writes:

>True, but having a contingency plan for matters that are not part of
>your situation is a sure sign of incompetence.

Why don't you get a dictionary and look up the meaning of "contingency?"
From: petrel@ac.dal.ca
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
Subject: Piccard's head
Date: 29 Dec 92 16:25:07 -0400
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

SPOILERS FOR ``Chain of Command - II''

























I liked the CoC -II scene when the torturer, for a breakfast, crushes
an egg, which bears a striking resemblance to the head of Piccard, sitting
across the table. After this egg-trepanation  he offers another egg to
 Piccard and passes him a spoon so Piccard may crush his "head" by himself...


Now I understand why Worf was allowed to escape. Even a Cardassian could not
stand an Worf-head-egg for breakfast...

Piotr Trela
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
From: mwasserm@diana.cair.du.edu (MARC Y. WASSERMAN)
Subject: Re: How to improve Star Trek
Organization: University of Denver, Denver, Colorado
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 20:22:30 GMT

In article <1992Dec17.233822.16000@phx.mcd.mot.com> rolandb@phx.mcd.mot.com (roland blackwell) writes:
>I believe one great way to improve the quality of Star Trek is to
>better define the talents of the bridge crew. Only once has the 
>helmsman (Sulu) talents been needed. This was in STV. I really don't
>believe the bridge crew are given scenerios that require their talents.
>Too many times a bridge member is on break or something and a bridge
>flunkie has replaced him/her and they fill in with no problem.  Even in time
>of emergencies, the bridge flunkie has only once been a little unsure of 
>him/her self (Schisms).  But we didn't get to see Riker show her how it's
>supposed to be done either. It appears that bridge crew talents are required
>everywhere except at their post.  In 'Booby trap' the captain took over the
>helm when a skilled helmsman was needed.  I would of thought the captain to be 
>a little rusty to trust with such a delicate task at the helm.  We all know
>Sulu wouldn't have been ask to step aside in that instance.  It seems that
>the main talents the bridge crew has is the ability to beam somewhere and
>beam BACK!! The bridge flunkies have not mastered this duty. Although, they
(some deletion)

You may have a valid point here.  I notice that one advantage that
TOS has is that each persons role was quite well defined.  You mention
that Sulu would have been the only helmsman trusted in most cases.
He got the ship out of tricky situations; and don't forget Chekov,
who was pretty much the only person trusted with navigation, and Uhura,
who did all the communication.  Extra bridge flunkies didn't show up
much (most of them were killed on away missions in the old show).
In TNG, bridge people are always showing up, and really the ohnly
person (android?) who is capable of doing differently is Data.  So,
yes, the bridge crew duties are less well defined in the Next Generatzion.
But I'm not sure it would improve the "quality" of the show to define
those duties; one of TNG's strengths is characterization BEYOND bridge
duties.  With the exception of Spock, most of the old show's characters
weren't nearly as well defined.  I'm not sure noting each person's
duties would help TNG's quality (which I feel has gone down a bit).

Marc Wasserman
mwasserm@diana.cair.du.edu

-- 
"So you're choosing to run from your own people in a rackety old TARDIS?"
		     D  O  C  T  O  R     W  H  O
				30 Years
           "Why not?  After all, that's how it all started!"
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
From: N2SX000 <N2SX@UNB.CA>
Subject: Re: Uniform Colors...When are they mandatory?
Organization: The University of New Brunswick
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 06:33:18 GMT

In article <1992Dec29.044005.29148@umbc3.umbc.edu> ac999239@umbc8.umbc.edu (ac999239) writes:
>>> Also I have noticed never seeing anyone of Commander rank (Lt. Commander is
>>> not the same thing) who wore gold. I have seen red and blue, but never
>>> gold with 3 pips. Is there something preventing this or is it just a
>>> coincidence? You would think in 6 years someone would specialize in
>>> engineering and be a commander!
>
>> Perhaps you've missed every episode since the beginning of the third
>> season, when Geordi was promoted to Lt. Cmdr?
>
>Put your visor on man! A Lt. Commander *IS NOT* a Commander. And does not
>have 3 pips! They have 2.5...
>.
3 pips: two filled, one empty.  I have *never* seen anyone with a semi-c
ircle on their collar.  A Lt. Cmdr. is a type of commander.  Would you
say a Lt. junior grade is not a Lt.?  Lt. is an adjective which
modifies the noun Commander.  (geez, get picky, why don't you??? :) )

Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
From: ac999239@umbc8.umbc.edu (ac999239)
Subject: Re: Uniform Colors...When are they mandatory?
Organization: University of Maryland, Baltimore County Campus
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 04:40:05 GMT

>> Also I have noticed never seeing anyone of Commander rank (Lt. Commander is
>> not the same thing) who wore gold. I have seen red and blue, but never
>> gold with 3 pips. Is there something preventing this or is it just a
>> coincidence? You would think in 6 years someone would specialize in
>> engineering and be a commander!

> Perhaps you've missed every episode since the beginning of the third
> season, when Geordi was promoted to Lt. Cmdr?

Put your visor on man! A Lt. Commander *IS NOT* a Commander. And does not
have 3 pips! They have 2.5...
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
From: dsy@psych.toronto.edu (Desiree Sy)
Subject: Re:  Female Starfleet Officers--Who's Competent?
Organization: Department of Psychology, University of Toronto
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 14:42:14 GMT

In article <7ZB0VB1w165w@Micor.OCUnix.on.ca> vincent@Micor.OCUnix.on.ca (Victor W. Wong) writes:

>Furthermore, TNG has shown us several women in authority roles, who
>HAVE proven themselves competent:

[list of 10 strong competent women deleted]

This is not meant as a flame, or even as a rebuke, but the  
fact that we're *counting* competent women (and that you came 
up with a total of *ten* from a few hundred episodes!) is 
itself an indication of a problem.

I once helped to write sketches in an undergrad university
Engineering show, and this problem came up again and again --
where are the roles for women?  Most of the writers (who were,
with one other exception, all men) attacked the problem by trying
to think up things for "women to do".  The result:  roles that
either fell into stereotypes for women -- or roles that still
acknowledged stereotypes for women by deliberately reversing
stereotypes.

What they couldn't get their heads around was when I tried to
suggest that a woman simply play a role that one of them had
written for a man -- and thus, had written outside the context of
sexism.  That is, the roles that are written for *people* seem to
be seen as being filled by men.  

As someone pointed out earlier, an example of that in TNG would 
have been if the part of Captain Jellico had been played by a 
woman -- without a word changed.  This would be an interesting 
part for a woman -- and look, those of us who haven't seen the 
second part don't even *know* if Jellico's strong *or* competent 
:) (tho' I suspect he's both).

The point is not to write a bunch of characters who are Super
Women, but to write *interesting* characters, who *happen* to be
women.

I like the idea of looking back on some characters who fit the
mold, but pointing to a list of a few characters who were 
competent women and saying, Look, we done okay, sounds faintly 
like the phrase, Well, y'know -- some of my best friends are....

-desiree
Newsgroups: rec.arts.startrek.current
From: jess@engx25.trt.com (Jess Alvarado)
Subject: Re: No Emmy for Stewart
Organization: TRT COMMUNICATIONS
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 18:15:55 GMT

Many would say that Dustin Hoffman's performance in Kramer vs Kramer was
in no way his best but it won him an Oscar.  I'm pulling for Patrick if
for no other reason, his consistently good performances are better then
anything on the BIG THREE networks.
-- 
| Jess Alvarado                  |         E-mail:  jess@trt.com      |
| TRT COMMUNICATIONS, INC.       |         UUCP:    uunet!engx25!jess |
| 1352 NW. 40th Ave.             |         Voice:   (305) 797-3167    |
| Ft. Lauderdale, FL 33313       |         Fax:     (305) 797-3323    |