From: muehlhau@en.ecn.purdue.edu (John Muehlhausen)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Are XXX Christians?
Date: 14 Apr 92 23:13:13 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network


In article <MIB.92Apr14144142@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu> mib@geech.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Michael I Bushnell) writes:
>
>The thread about homosexuality started, as it usually does, with some
>bigot screaming that gay people can't be Christians.  Now, one of the
>participants in that debate, John Muehlhausen, has moved on to
>attacking Jay Windley, saying that Mormons can't be Christians.

To quote Ren (my hero): "Stimpy, you fool!!!"
I am not attacking Jay Windley, and yes Mormons are not Christians.

>The attack on gay people consisted of the bigots trying to prove that
>gay sex is sinful.  But I'm confused.  What does that have to do with
>whether gay people can be Christians?  Even if gay sex were sinful
>(something I will certainly not concede, mind you), it wouldn't (no
>matter how persistent) prevent one from being a Christian.  

Which I stated _very_ early on in the debate.  No one is saying that gay
persons are not Christian.  Why would I repeatedly refer to them as "Gay
Christians" if they were not???

>Mr Muehlhausen's current anti-Morman tirade is attempting to prove
			  ^^^^^^^^^^^
		  Not anti-Mormon -> anti-Mormonism
		  You will notice that at least two other
		  individuals have posted their bad
		  experience with LDS.

>that Mormon beliefs are heretical.  Now, if the LDS Church teaches
>heresy, what does that have to do with whether they are Christian?

If they believe that the one true and living God became the man Jesus in
order to pay for all of humanities sins without exception, and accept this
for their lives, then they are Christian.  As it turns out they do not.

They believe (from what they have said so far) that Jesus is a separate
entity from God who died for our sins, but this is not all that we need for
salvation.  You must also at the very least say a Mormon incantation to get
into heaven, and at the very most do all of those things which I outlined in
my previous posts, which were the first-hand experience of Chuck and Dolly
sacket.

>What I'm really interested in is finding out why so much energy is
>spent identifying class X and group Y as Christian or
>not-really-Christian.  Since this is the supposed motive for both of
>these recent threads, I'd like to find out its cause.
>
>You see, I have no trouble saying that I think many Mormon beliefs are
>heretical.  I'm quite confident of it.  I also understand that, from
>the Mormon perspective, one who believes that Joseph Smith was a
>prophet would probably be led to the LDS position on most of these
>issues.  I don't know of any non-supernatural way for this crucial
>difference between me and the LDS to be settled, so I just leave it
>there.  The LDS Church sees me as heretical, I see them so, and we can
>happily march on to discussions of other issues besides theology, and
>we can even help the poor together.

I guess you have to 1) know you are right
		    2) know they are wrong
		    3) care enough to say this
I know I will not change the mind of any die-hard Mormons, but isn't it worth
it if someone who was thinking about Mormonism changes their mind because of
this discussion?

>I can stand out on Boston Common on Good Friday with the Quakers'
>annual peace vigil, even while thinking that they are theologically
>misguided about many things, and they can stand with me thinking the
>same about me.  I don't think it's important to waste effort deciding
>if they are Christians or not.  I can share my beliefs with them,
>explaining what things I think are crucial about which they disagree,
>and I've learned a lot from such fruitful discussions.  I've had such
>discussions with LDS as well, and the same mutual learning has
>resulted.  I'm content with talling people what I believe, and
>listening to what they believe.  I'm quite confident that God will
>sort it out in the end.

If you accept what other people believe, you place no initiative in them to
re-evaluate based on what you said you believe.  This live-and-let-live
attitude does not get people saved.  I know this from some of my
"cold-turkey" campus evangelism.  Yes you listen kindly to the other person
and genuinely consider what they are saying; yes you show that you genuinely
care about them; no you do not just leave it at that.  Without showing (in
whatever way) that your light is brighter, they will not even consider a
change.  There is something to be said for "outshining" them (at risk of the
SoundGarden phenomena :-), but I have found pulling the plug to be more
effective.  This will probably turn some people off, but I have found that
intellectual types do not mind, as they have been able to remove themselves
from their religion and view it objectively (somewhat the case with Jay W.).
There are people who will respond to you, and there are people who will
respond to me.  That is why we both exist.  You saven yourn, and I'll do
likewise...  Peace?


>It seems to me that people who are busy trying to identify who the
>"real Christians" are are really busy trying to predict who God will
>judge, and how.  I just don't think that's a very fruitful way to
>spend time.

"Real Christians" are not hard to define.  Mormons (and others) just make it
seem hard.  BTW I think the attempt to liken Mormonism to the gay Christian
is very representative of what I have said before about the Christian
society accepting more and more which is not of God.


John M.