From: guido@island.COM (Guido Marx)
Subject: Re: Fear or loathing?  So what?
Organization: Island Graphics Corp.  San Rafael, Ca.
Distribution: ba
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 19:14:51 GMT

In article <1gmm8d_.phil@netcom.com> phil@netcom.com (Phil Ronzone) writes:
>In article <1992Jul27.232504.7648@island.COM> guido@island.COM (Guido Marx) writes:
>    >In article <j3kmvtq.phil@netcom.com> phil@netcom.com (Phil
>    >Ronzone) writes:
>    >>Another example -- a high official in the Navy reasigned
>    >>because he was protecting one of his aides who was guilty of
>    >>sexual harassment. Said aide was a son of an old family
>    >>friend. The aide is homosexual and was sexually harassing
>    >>enlisted men.
>    >>
>    >I don't understand why you included this story. If the high
>    >Navy official was protecting an aide who was sexually
>    >harrasing enlisted men, he/she deserved to be fired (along
>    >with the person doing the sexual harassment). Sexual
>    >orientation doesn't enter into it as far as I can see.
>
>To give an example that refutes the statement that homosexuals in the
>military will/would not be sexually harassing people of the same sex.

I don't think that anyone has made that argument (at least I haven't
seen it made).  The argument which I (and others) am putting forward is that
homosexuals won't sexually harass people any more frequently than
heterosexuals do.  The Tailhook scandal provides us ample evidence
that heterosexuals also engage in egregious sexual harassment.  But,
no one is calling for banning heterosexuals from the military because
of the reprehensible actions of a few idiots.

>    >Well, I belong to a health club which has men's and women's
>    >showers. The men's showers are communal (ie: there isn't any
>    >privacy in the shower). I must assume that a certain number
>    >of the men at this club are gay (as far as I know, my club
>    >doesn't discriminate against gays). Yet, surprisingly enough,
>    >I have yet to see any oggling or catcalls in the men's
>    >shower. Are you seriously suggesting that if the military
>    >admitted un-closeted gays (they admit plenty of gays right
>    >now), that the military showers would suddenly be filled with
>    >oggling men ? Why don't we see this in other areas where gays
>    >are freely admited ?
>
>The issue is one of privacy. The current social conventions would be such
>that a man making a sexual overture or innuendo in a locker room would
>be at a minimum ostracized and perhaps become part of a fight. hence, it
>happens little. 

The reality is that the whether the military admits gays or not has 
little if any bearing on "social convention".  I submit that people
don't engage in sexual overture or innuendo not through fear of being
beaten, but because most people are decent and realize that such
behavior is innapropriate in this context.  I am doubly sure that such
behavior would certainly not be tolerated in a military context.

>Ask instead, how many straight men would mind showering in
>a predominatly homosexual shower room. Of course nobody is going ho be raped
>or subjected to obvious overtures. But the sense of privacy will be
>invaded.

Well, as a straight male I wouldn't mind.  I am comfortable with my
sexuality.  As a matter of fact, for all I know there may be times right
now when I am showering in a "predominatly homosexual shower room".  I
don't know, and frankly, don't care.

Guido