HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tmv@blitzen.uucp (26129-vandewater)
Subject: Re: Oldtimer new to network
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 13:19:07 GMT

In article <4w5BoB4w165w@willard.UUCP>, dawson@willard.UUCP writes:
> exujsch@exu.ericsson.se (Johnny Schmittou T-EEG x7887 Dallas) writes:
> 
> > "The Muchachos" from Hawthorne, New Jersey?  (Around say, 1976?)
 
>Weren't
> they DQ'ed for an age violation around that same time period ('75?)?

Yes, and from what I heard they won prelims and were disqualified for
finals because of an age violation.  Supposedly, all corps in finals 
that year had holes in their show!  Can you imagine working the entire
summer on a show and then not being able to perform in finals?  This
led to Muchachos folding...who would rejoin after that incident?
(do I have my story right?)

Tom
---

Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
From: kal@vaxeline.ftp.com (Kelleigh A. Lewis)
Subject: Re: competitive spirit (was Re:Bridgemen)
Organization: FTP Software, Inc., Wakefield, MA
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 20:24:15 GMT

In article <1992Jul25.140215.1@vax1.umkc.edu> cputnam@vax1.umkc.edu writes:
>
>Phil wrote in his posting about competitiveness that any corps that is obssesed
>with winning will destroy themselves.  I would have to disagree with that and
>turn to my good friends, the Blue Devils. for an example.  Let's face it, there
>is no corps out there (not even the infamous Phantom Regiment) that strives for
>victory as much as the Devils.  
>
>In a back issue of Drum Corps World (June 14, 1985), on pg. 7, Peter Byrne

< conversation deleted >

All this discussion reminds me of a tee-shirt the Cadets sold at their boothe 
a couple of years back:

Thomas Merton, in his book, "Love and Living," spoke about this drive to win.
"What I am saying is this: the score is not what matters. Life does not have to
be regarded as a game in which scores are kept and somebody wins. If you are 
too intent on winning, you will never enjoy playing. If you are too obsessed 
with success, you will forget how to live. If you have learned only how to be a success, your life has probably been wasted. If a university concentrates on 
producing successful people, it is lamentably failing in its obligation to
society and the student themselves."

 
	my $.02

		Kelleigh
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
From: jvbutera@grad00.math.ncsu.edu (Jeffrey V. Butera)
Subject: Re: Scores from July 22.
Organization: NCSU Mathematics Dept.
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 13:34:06 GMT

In article <9207241937.AA16055@andromeda.rutgers.edu> dowzycki@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ken Dowzycki) writes:
>
>Here are some scores from Alton, IL.
>
>1.  Star of Indiana  86.4
>2.  Blue Devils      85.2

Now I haven't seen either corps here, but as I recall, isn't this
the first time Star beat BD?  Could this be a few odd judges or is
Star really moving up the ranks?  Any comments.... 


>3.  Freelancers      76.0
>4.  Marauders        67.3
>5.  Black Gold       63.1
>
>
>-- 
>MM   MM FFFFF 	Michael Fath		fath1@husc.harvard.edu
>M M M M F	Dept of Microbiology and Molecular Genetics
>M  M  M FFF     Harvard Medical School         
>M     M F       Boston, MA 02115				**Enjoy life!              


-- 
Jeff Butera <> Math Grad Student, N.C. State <> jvbutera@math.ncsu.edu

DISCLAIMER: My views are my own and I'll be a big N.C.State Wolfpack 
fan as soon as hell freezes over.  Until then... Go Clemson Tigers!
From: nih00@ccc.amdahl.com (Neil Hamilton)
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
Subject: Show Results
Date: 21 Jul 92 06:48:23 GMT
Reply-To: nih00@juts.ccc.amdahl.com ()
Distribution: w
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

Omaha NE 20 July 1992

1	87.0	Blue Devils
2	83.3	Santa Clara Vanguard
3	82.2	Blue Knights
4	70.4	Mauraders
5	66.6	Troopers
6	65.7	Black Gold
7	62.9	Allegiance Elite
8	60.8	Railmen

Neil  -SCV- 
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
From: cdoser@polari.online.com
Subject: Re: Oldtimer new to network
Organization: Seattle Online Public Access Unix.  (206) 328-4944 (all lines telebit-equipped)
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 07:27:52 GMT

chris@optimla.aimla.com (Chris Angelli) writes:


>Hi,

>I'm new to news and particularly new to this newsgroup.  Please
>forgive me if this posting is inappropriate for this group.  I
>marched in a small All-Girl corps in Massachusetts from '77 - '79.
>Since that time I've totally lost touch with the world of Drum
>Corps.  I was pleasantly surprised to discover this newsgroup.
>Of course, I still remember those old (and probably extinct) 
>Northeast powerhouses: the 27th Lancers, NorthStar, the Bridgemen, etc. (I
>actually marched with NorthStar for a short while.)  As a matter of fact,
>my pulse still starts racing whenever I hear Danny Boy accompanied by the
>smell of bus exhaust (Does anybody remember that?)

I certainly miss hearing Danny Boy! It is sad that we have lost so many
wonderful groups like 27th, Kilties, NorthStar, Black Watch (Auburn),
Kingsmen (Anaheim), etc.
I think that more of us should get involved in drum corps, and maybe
look into starting new corps. If we start banding (no pun) together,
maybe we could change things in our area.

As to bus exhaust, Yes! everytime I smell it, it takes me back to
being on tour.

                                                                      /|
                                                                     / |
____________________________________________ ||----------------- ___/  |
| Cathy Doser        *     Black Watch       ||---____________  \ __   |
| P.O. Box 69271     *      1972-1978             / /          \ |  \  |
| Seattle, WA 98168  * 1978 Class A Champions    | |           | |   \ |
| cdoser             *  'You are what you are,    \ \_________/ /     \|
| @atc.boeing.com    *  or what you want to be!'   \___________/
|_____________________________________________________________________
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
From: gordons@CS.ColoState.EDU (vahl scott gordon)
Subject: 83 retreat
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 13:47:13 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University

>   Remember in '83:  1- Garfield, 2-Blue Devils, 3-SCV, when it
> was the Vanguard's turn to pass in review they turned and played
> to the Blue Devils, snubbing Garfield.   It was stated that it
> was SCV's drum majors decision to do this on retreat after the
> scores were announced and that Gail Royer had no idea that this
> was going to happen.   Royer sent a letter of apology to the Cadets 
> for their actions and it was read to the Cadets entire corps.  
> Now that's DIRT!

Depends who you ask.  I'm sure you'd get a different opinion
from somebody in SCV that year.  Someone I met in the corps
told me that it was an expression of friendship to BD in contrast
to the extremely rude way Garfield treated the other top corps
throughout the whole year.  I'm not saying I agree with that,
I'm just saying that it depends on who you ask.  I've heard
Garfield folks say "remember 83???" and SCV folks say "remember 83???",
both apparently thinking that it's obvious how rude the OTHER corps was.

Scott
From: nih00@ccc.amdahl.com (Neil Hamilton)
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
Subject: Show Results Burlington IA
Date: 22 Jul 92 05:50:18 GMT
Reply-To: nih00@juts.ccc.amdahl.com ()
Distribution: w
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

Show Results Burlington IA
21 July 1992

1	86.4	Madison Scouts
2	83.0	Santa Clara Vanguard
3	81.8	Blue Knights
4	68.1	Colts
5	64.9	Troopers
6	54.5	Allegiance Elite
7	49.9	Quad City Knights

Neil   -SCV-
From: dowzycki@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ken Dowzycki)
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
Subject: Re: Oldtimer new to network
Date: 23 Jul 92 14:21:21 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

dawson@willard.UUCP writes:

>exujsch@exu.ericsson.se (Johnny Schmittou T-EEG x7887 Dallas) writes:

>> 
>> I didn't see if anyone had mentioned these guys, but how about
>> "The Muchachos" from Hawthorne, New Jersey?  (Around say, 1976?)
>> We (my high school marching band) had an album recorded live from
>> a contest with that corps on it.  They did a tune called "Pictures
>> of Spain" (I had also heard this referred to as "Off the Line"?)

>That, and another tune: "Spirit of the Bull," (or the Spanish equivalent).
>Our high school band played an arrangement of that one for years.  Weren't
>they DQ'ed for an age violation around that same time period ('75?)?

   Not too long ago one of the net members out in Colorado? posted
that he ran into someone from the Muchachos who marched through '75.
If they are reading this and ever see this guy again please ask him
if he remembers Paul Bongiovi (bass drum), Janette Irving (rifle line),
Scott Starkowsky (mellophone), Guy Pennachio (mellophone) and Ralph
Pennachio (soprano).  I grew with these folks and they all marched in
the Muchachos from '72-'77.  

    The Muchachos were disqualified from finals in 1975 for 
marching 2 overage guys from the Midwest that were from the
Cavaliers.  (Muchachos won prelims by 2 points).  Many feel that
these two guys were planted in the corps for this to take place.
They were never seen again and ran for their lives.  Hence, when the
Cavaliers came on the field in finals, the crown booed the shit out
of them.  If anyone still has a recording of '75 Cavies you can
hear the booing after every number.

  In finals when the lead solo soprano from the Muchachos (Jeff
Kavit) appeared on retreat in full uniform marching towards the
drum majors, the crowd went beserk.   Needless to say (although
the Cavies probably do not have a single person still affiliated
with them from that time) just the mention of their name elicits
growls from old Muchachos.  This could have very well been the 
first east coast champion, instead Madison won.  (SCV, Muchachos,
Blue Devils, and Madison all beat each other that year yet, as I
mentioned above, the Muchachos pulled ahead by a 2 point lead in
prelims).

   As for the Muchachos, they kept basically the same show for
'76 although not as strong and DCI just bombed them, as they
finished in the lower teens.  1977 was their last year on the
field and with a completely new show and a full corps they were
still getting their heads handed to them, losing to corps that
should have never touched them like the Saints, from Edison, NJ.

  Well, that's my tale from the past.  I know there are some
people on the net from '75 SCV, I would like to hear from you
and anyone else, to find out your versions of this blast from
the past.  
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
From: kal@vaxeline.ftp.com (Kelleigh A. Lewis)
Subject: Re: competitive spirit (was Re:Bridgemen)
Organization: FTP Software, Inc., Wakefield, MA
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 13:31:14 GMT

In article <1992Jul27.214227.12273@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> tmv@blitzen.uucp (26129-vandewater) writes:
>In article <1992Jul27.202415.15158@vaxeline.ftp.com>, kal@vaxeline.ftp.com (Kelleigh A. Lewis) writes:

>So the t-shirt said all that?  I think I'm lost here...what did the shirt
>say?  It musta been a BIG t-shirt!! :-)
>
>Tom
>---
>
>>> Yes, it did say all that, and it was a regular size t-shirt! :-)

The point of my previous post was not how big the t-shirt was or how much it said, but what it said!  I teach a small Eastern Mass drum corps and a local area
band, and I alway try to teach them that it is more important to better them-
selves as musicians, marchers and people than it is to win! Usually, if they
are more concerned with how they do as a unit, they end up doing very well! :)

Kelleigh
From: fath1@husc8.harvard.edu (Michael Fath)
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
Subject: (Star ARRRGGGHH!!!)
Date: 26 Jul 92 19:20:19 GMT
Organization: Harvard University Science Center


Before we get more of this:
>>
>>WARNING:  STAR BASHING AHEAD
>>
>MORE BASHING:
>
Before I start something I am going to regret (specifically, another round
of Star bashing and hard feelings), let me make myself clear:

1.  I think Star has the most talented membership of any corps in DCI.
Their horns never fail to astound me for their ability to play such
incredibly difficult music so well.  I think the members are great and that 
they deserve the best.  Good luck to them all!
 
2.  The Star staff is obviously the best in the business.  I commend them
whole-heartedly for their success in teaching such a complex show to the
corps.

3. I have only a small beef with the financial advantage that Star has and
this advantage does not provide the basic for my "bashing".  They are able to
take advantage of good-fortune.  Good for them.  Bill Cook has also been
very generous to the Drum Corps community in general and I think the activity
is much better off because of his generosity and enthusiasm. The small beef
that I do have about finances comes from watching many of my favorite
corps (Suncoast, 27th, etc.) fold from lack of funds when Star does so
well. 

My gripe is with the people who DESIGN Star's show!  They take an extremely
talented and hard-working corps and they give them nothing
more than a technical marching and musical drill to perform.  They fail to
interject real drum corps excitement and spirit into the show (or at least
they have since 1990.)  This year, the designer's have taken great and
popular American classics and made them largely inaccessible and unenjoyable
to watch.  BTW, I don't think of myself as an old-time, straight lines
only fan.  I know what Star is trying to do and I appreciate innovation
as much as anyone (I thought Fast Ride on a Short Machineok in 1991
Cadets was GREAT!!).  I just think that material that the designer is 
giving Star is not worthy of their effort.

Whehh.  I hope that makes thinks clear. 
{

If people want to discuss this more with me, se{d me email.
That way others who don't want another w3round of Star bashing
will not be subjected to it.

THANKS!
 
-- 
MM   MM FFFFF 	Michael Fath		fath1@husc.harvard.edu
M M M M F	Dept of Microbiology and Molecular Genetics
M  M  M FFF     Harvard Medical School         
M     M F       Boston, MA 02115				**Enjoy life!              
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
From: pm860605@longs.LANCE.ColoState.EDU (Peter Mckinney)
Subject: Re: Metheny and marching
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 16:02:29 GMT
Reply-To: pm860605@longs.LANCE.ColoState.EDU (Peter Mckinney)
Organization: Colorado State U. Center for Computer Assisted Engineering.

In article <92205.124014MHUGHES@MIAMIU.BITNET>, <MHUGHES@MIAMIU.BITNET> writes:
> In article <1992Jul22.162710.18584@stortek.com>,
pae@blackcat.stortek.com (Phil
> Earnhardt-x8236) says:
> >
> >XXoXoXXoXoXoXXoXXoXoXo ...
> >
> I get it :-).  Can you keep going?
>  
> I haven't bothered to do it yet, Phil, but have you (or has anyone) figured
> out the meter (or mixing of meters) in "First Circle"?
>  
> Mike


I always thought this section was in 11/8 time.  It certainly has an 11/8
feel but could be broken up as 4/4 & 3/8 I suppose..... ;-).  Maybe this
will finally get Brad Halls to bite.... a freind who *is* following this
newsgroup and marched that tune in '85 'Devils (He even had to clap that
part, being in the snare line.....).

Brad - if you're reading this and still can't post, send me email and I'll
post it for you.


				- Pete McKinney
				- '84 Phantom Regiment					
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
From: tmv@blitzen.uucp (26129-vandewater)
Subject: Re: SCV in 1981
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 03:29:12 GMT
Summary: Garfield and Spirit

> I suppose you remember Sevierville, TN?  ...and the highly unusual encore
> that followed, wherein Garfield and Spirit performed together...
>   Willard Dawson
>                   SOA   '83

Willard,

YES, I remember that encore well.  Spirit and Garfield has  a GREAT
time together that year...the corps were good friends.  

Tom
---
From: MHUGHES@MIAMIU.BITNET
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
Subject: Re: (Star ARRRGGGHH!!!)
Date: 27 Jul 92 16:57:10 GMT
Organization: Miami University - Academic Computer Service

In article <1992Jul26.152020.14193@husc3.harvard.edu>, fath1@husc8.harvard.edu
(Michael Fath) says:
>
>
>My gripe is with the people who DESIGN Star's show!  They take an extremely
>talented and hard-working corps and they give them nothing
>more than a technical marching and musical drill to perform.  They fail to
>interject real drum corps excitement and spirit into the show (or at least
>they have since 1990.)  This year, the designer's have taken great and
>popular American classics and made them largely inaccessible and unenjoyable
>to watch.
 
Upon reading this, one might get the idea that Star's staff composed the
pieces that are being done.  This could not be further from the truth.  The
pieces were written by Morton Gould, William Schuman and Gordon Jacob, all
among the most renowned American composers.  You also would get the idea
that the show is nothing but 16th note mellophone runs and a brass section
that can do nothing but tongue really fast.  What about the chorale sections
of Chester?  What about the treatment of America following the drum solo
section?  Be sure to give a distorted impression of their performance by
failing to mention their impeccable intonation and use of dynamics.
 
While we're on the subject of technical, I would like someone to try to
explain why they think Star is more technical this year than corps like BD
or Cadets.
 
It also makes me laugh that after the wonderful 1991 Roman production, Star
has made a valiant attempt to appease corps fans who want more accessible
music, yet these people still complain that Star is inaccessible.  What
could be more accessible than what they are doing?  The fact that they have
remained true to their style as well as use more recognizable music makes
me appreciate them all the more.  If they had come out and performed straight
conventional arrangements of American patriotic tunes like countless
marching bands have for decades, these same people would be complaining that
the show is too easy, too uninspired, too dull.
 
Like Charles Ives once said, "Sit up and use your ears like a man!"
 
(no offense to female posters)
Mike Hughes
From: nih00@uts.amdahl.com (NEIL)
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
Subject: Show Results Nashville Prelims
Date: 25 Jul 92 16:45:35 GMT
Reply-To: nih00@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com (NEIL)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

Show Results Nashville Prelims 
24 July 1992

1	91.9	Star of Indiana
2	89.7	Blue Devils
3	89.2	Cavaliers
4	88.5	Madison Scouts
5	88.1	Phantom Regiment
6	88.0	Cadets of Bergen County
7	86.2	Santa Clara Vanguard
8	85.8	Blue Knights
9	85.3	Crossmen
10	81.8	Velvet Knights
11	78.0	Blue Coats
12	77.6	Freelancers
13	76.6	Glassmen
14	74.2	Spirit of Atlanta
15	72.8	Sky Ryders

Neil  -SCV-
-- 
|\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/|
|   Neil I. Hamilton             amdahl.uts.amdahl.com!nih00   |
|   Amdahl Corporation           nih00@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com   |
|..............................................................|
|       Toto  ---  I don't think were in Kansas anymore!       |
|..............................................................|
|   The opinions expressed above do not reflect the views of   |
|   the employees, nor the management, of Amdahl Corporation   |
|/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\|
From: holt_c@cubldr.colorado.edu
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
Subject: Re: Oldtimer new to network
Date: 21 Jul 92 17:06:12 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

In article <1992Jul20.210546.14882@ncsu.edu>, jvbutera@grad01.math.ncsu.edu (Jeffrey V. Butera) writes:
> In article <1992Jul20.203139.23999@hubcap.clemson.edu> rwberry@hubcap.clemson.edu (Robert W Berry) writes:
>>hall@cs.uidaho.edu (Kelly Hall) writes:
>>
>>>Wow.  A lot of corps have come and gone!
>>
>>Sad but true.
> 
> 
> How about the Sanctians (sp?) from Mass.   I was told they were the first
> corps to win the A60 category (as I understand, A60 didn't compete in finals
> until 1985ish?  Someone help me.)  Anyway, they won A60 in 85 (give/take
> a year).  Had friends in there, in fact, I was almost there at the tender
> age of 14....
> 
In 87 Rocky Mountain Magic, from Thornton Colorado, was stomping on the
Mandarins in A60 all throughout the West coast tour.  But they couldn't afford 
to do the the second the second half of the season, so they couldn't go to the
A60 championships which the Mandarins eventually won.  They tried again in 88
and 89 but were nowhere near as good.  I think they folded after the 89 season.

						Charles Holt
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
From: jvbutera@grad00.math.ncsu.edu (Jeffrey V. Butera)
Subject: Re: Defending Star's honor (Re: Star ARRRGGGHH!!!)
Organization: NCSU Mathematics Dept.
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 21:16:32 GMT

By the way Nick,

I never inferred they didn't deserve their title last year.  Never saw
a single show last year.  Didn't buy the albums.  Couldn't discuss it
intelligently. 

Seeya!~
-- 
Jeff Butera <> Math Grad Student, N.C. State <> jvbutera@math.ncsu.edu

DISCLAIMER: My views are my own and I'll be a big N.C.State Wolfpack 
fan as soon as hell freezes over.  Until then... Go Clemson Tigers!
From: holt_c@cubldr.colorado.edu
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
Subject: Evansville, IN
Date: 23 Jul 92 17:14:27 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

> Burlington Iowa, July 21
> 
> 1.	Madison Scouts		86.4
> 2.	Santa Clara		83.0
> 3.	Blue Knights		81.4
> 4.	Colts			68.1
> 5.	Troopers		64.9
> 6.	Allegiance Elite	54.9
> 7.	Quad City Knights	49.9

Evansville, Indiana.  July 22.

1.	Madison Scouts		86.0
2.	Santa Clara Vanguard	83.5
3.	Blue Knights		79.6
4.	Troopers		64.2
5.	Colts			63.4
6.	Allegiance Elite	48.8

Looks like the scores of Blue Knights, Colts, and Allegiance got nailed for
some reason.  I wonder if Allegiance was accidentally given a low score by the
judges, then compared everyone in accordance to that score, then realizing it
before they got to SCV and Madison.  Sounds silly, but I encountered it several
times when I marched.	

						Charles Holt
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 16:32:01 -0400 
From: Cathy Pearle Milligan <cm2o+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Oldtimer new to network
Distribution: usa


I have been lurking for several months - but after reading this
message, I could resist no longer.  I marched with the General
Butler Vagabonds ('84-'85  and practiced in '86) and this was
the first time someone mentioned their name.  The senior corps
only marched parades (no shows) in 1986 and I hear they folded
soon after.  I really wish they would have come back, I know 
their sponser, Mr. Andrew Yarachs, really tried to keep them
going, but they just could not recruit enough local kids with
the dedication it takes to put together a competative corps.
(Any other former Vagabonds around? I would love to hear from
you!)

Aaahhh the memories though!  Weekend practices where we would
all sleep over at the hall, working bingo to raise money for
tour, and then....the summer!  We were a fairly small corps, 
but we were all had a great time! 

I have not been able to see a live performance in nearly six 
years because of school, work, etc. but when I get finished
with school, I hope to join a senior corps and get back into
drum corps again!


           --Cathy Milligan

Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps
From: tmv@blitzen.uucp (26129-vandewater)
Subject: Re: competitive spirit (was Re:Bridgemen)
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 92 21:42:27 GMT

In article <1992Jul27.202415.15158@vaxeline.ftp.com>, kal@vaxeline.ftp.com (Kelleigh A. Lewis) writes:
> All this discussion reminds me of a tee-shirt the Cadets sold at their boothe 
> a couple of years back:
> 
> Thomas Merton, in his book, "Love and Living," spoke about this drive to win.
> "What I am saying is this: the score is not what matters. Life does not have to
> be regarded as a game in which scores are kept and somebody wins. If you are 
> too intent on winning, you will never enjoy playing. If you are too obsessed 
> with success, you will forget how to live. If you have learned only how to be a success, your life has probably been wasted. If a university concentrates on 
> producing successful people, it is lamentably failing in its obligation to
> society and the student themselves."

So the t-shirt said all that?  I think I'm lost here...what did the shirt
say?  It musta been a BIG t-shirt!! :-)

Tom
---


Newsgroups: alt.drumcorps