HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sethb@panix.com (Seth Breidbart)
Subject: Re: Maginal whites complain about Affirmative Action
Organization: Society for the Promulgation of Cruelty to the Clueless
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 00:32:33 GMT

In article <1993Jan22.205313.19702@news.acns.nwu.edu> dowdy@tochtli.biochem.nwu.edu (Dowdy Jackson) writes:
>In article <C19K5G.LLH@ais.org> tim@ais.org (Tim Tyler) writes:
>>
>>   The wonderful chievements of yours which you have so modestly informed us
>>of simply go to show that there is no need for AA.  You apparently went
>>head-to-head with whitey & "kicked their butts" in the classes, etc.
>>
>>
>The point is that if it weren't for AA I probably would not have been 
>accepted into this program.

Why not?  Were your credentials bad?  Then all that your case proves
is that credentials don't correlate 100% with success, a well-known
fact.  If your credentials were good, you should have been admitted
without AA.

AA only makes sense under the assumption that being a minority is
positively correlated with success, after controlling for credentials.

>     I would like to see all of these so called non-bigoted anti AA people
>perform under the same stressful conditions as most minorities.

Want to trade the stress I've been under lately for yours?  (Starting
with getting to work at 4 AM to talk to people in London...)  Nobody
has a monopoly on stress.

> I'd bet that
>given the same conditions many whites would fail or faulter as well.

So?

>     The fact of the matter is that those "white" students that got kicked
>out....where they taking places that could have been filled by more
>qualified white students ??? I have yet to hear any white person
>bring this point up.

They were taking places that could have been filled by better
students: (i) their "qualifications" might have been the best (as
already pointed out, qualifications correlate less than perfectly with
performance); (ii) the better students might not have been white.

Seth

Newsgroups: alt.discrimination,soc.culture.african.american
From: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Subject: Re: Institutional racism
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 19:57:05 GMT

In article <ISBELL.93Jan20113253@panther.ai.mit.edu> isbell@ai.mit.edu (Charles L Isbell) writes:
>Terry.Parks@launchpad.unc.edu (Terry Parks) writes:
>|A claim was made of the existence of a mortage lending study which shows
>|a racial bias (actually an alleged racial bias in favor of Caucasians)
>|which didn't cook data. However, the study, reported in the October 9th, 1992
>|Boston Globe does just that.

>|   Study shows racial bias in lending

>|   A landmark study released yesterday shows that banks in Greater Boston
>|   discriminate against black and Hispanic mortage applicants, offering
>|   the most damning evidence to date of racial hurdles facing
>|   minority homebuyers.

>|But what is this, in a paragraph back on page 5:

>|   Syron and Munnell [the report presenters] stressed that the new
>|   study found no evidence that banks discriminate against minority
>|   mortgage applicants with "perfect" financial and employment
>|   records.

>And exactly *how* is this "cooking" the data?

>And exactly *how* does this mean that there is "no discrimination"?

>|So there is no discrimination, so why the big headline? Apparently the
>|discrimination is that a person with twenty late credit card payments
>|was more often denied than a person with just one. Apply a flame and
>|voila, cooked data. Also part of the creative baking was that property
>|location was totally ignored. Is it plausible that a $100,000 house in
>|a run-down block of $50,000 houses would be more of a mortgage risk than
>|a $100,000 house in a block of $200,000 houses?

>How utterly and completely pathetic.  When folks have "perfect"
>records, banks hop all over them.  When folks have a non-perfect
>record (>80% of the applicants, btw), Whites are more likely than
>Blacks to be approved.

>The article makes perfectly clear that only groups of equal applicants
>were compared.

How do you decide that applicants are equal?  There is no way to get a
complete list of all of the criteria involved; we have no way to codify
the information into an intelligible form.  I have looked at far too
many applicants for support for graduate school not to realize how 
inadequate the information available is for the purpose.

The information supplied is not the person.  I suggest that if you have
the necessary background, you look at a sound statistics book, and look
at the notion of "regression."  It is valid here.
-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@snap.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!snap.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination
From: tim@ais.org (Tim Tyler)
Subject: Re: Maginal whites complain about Affirmative Action
Organization: UMCC
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 18:30:29 GMT

In article <1993Jan22.205612.19777@news.acns.nwu.edu> dowdy@tochtli.biochem.nwu.edu (Dowdy Jackson) writes:
>In article <C19KFG.LMA@ais.org> tim@ais.org (Tim Tyler) writes:
>> 
>>   Are you saying that (in general), whites don't interact with black, but
>>blacks interact with whites?
>> 
>>  Oh yeah, isn't it the Jews that control $$ in this country?  And don't
>>forget those 'disrespectful' Koreans...
>>
>>   Saying that "whites control the money in this country" is just as
>>ignorant/racist as saying "Blacks control the violent crime in this
>>country."
>>
>>
>Well Tim... When was the last time you walked in a AfAm area of town ?
>Gone to a AfAm university ? Shopped in an area that was mostly AfAm or 
>even worked at a job where you were the only "white" person present ?
>

    I don't see how this is relevent, but the neighborhood I live in is 
probably about 70% black.  I say "probably," because the issue has never
really mattered to me, until *you* made the dumb implication that I live in
a 'white' area of town.
 
  As for your other questions, again, I pay attention to things other than
color, although since blacks make up about 13% of the total population, I
wouldn't expect to see anything more than 10 - 20% of schools, businesses,
etc. as being 'black.'  I make decisions & choices based on things other
than race.    It is evident to me that race is very important to you, & it
also seems that you expect that one particular race should have a much
larger impact than what could reasonably be expected, based upon the overall
racial makeup of the U.S.
 
    My recommendation to you --for whatever it is worth-- is that you place
less importance on color, & more on the quality of individuals.  I think a
great American once had words to that effect.


>>-- 
>> Tim Tyler      Internet: tim@ais.org  MCI Mail: 442-5735 
>>P.O. Box 443    C$erve: 72571,1005  DDN: Tyler@Dockmaster.ncsc.mil
>>Ypsilanti MI    Packet: KA8VIR @KA8UNZ.#SEMI.MI.USA.NA
>>48197
>
>


-- 
 Tim Tyler      Internet: tim@ais.org  MCI Mail: 442-5735 
P.O. Box 443    C$erve: 72571,1005  DDN: Tyler@Dockmaster.ncsc.mil
Ypsilanti MI    Packet: KA8VIR @KA8UNZ.#SEMI.MI.USA.NA
48197
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination
From: Terry.Parks@launchpad.unc.edu (Terry Parks)
Subject: Re: AA
Organization: UNC Office of Information Technology
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 02:52:11 GMT

>   I believe that racial discrimination (including AA) is morally, 
>ethically, and spiritually wrong.

Well put. Let's take a moment to laugh at the people who read this as,
"I'm a white male and let me whine that we should return to a society
of minority and female oppression".

--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
From: wdickeson@mta.ca
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination
Subject: Re: Nightclubs: Females pay less
Date: 27 Jan 93 15:45:01 GMT
Reply-To: wdickeson@mta.ca
Organization: Mount Allison U, Sackville, N.B. Canada

In article <11851@uqcspe.cs.uq.oz.au>, muzzle@cs.uq.oz.au (Murray Chapman) writes:
>Hi there
>
>I heard an ad on the radio last night, in which a nightclub ADVERTISED
>different cover charges for males and females (females could get in for
>about half the price of males).
>
>From my contacts in the nightclub industry, I understand that this is because
>females will go where it is cheap, whereas males will go where there are
>females.
>
>What I can't understand is why this is not seen as sexual discrimination.

Well, frankly it is sexual discrimination.  Yet in our society in general
there is an alarming acceptance of sexual discrimination reverted back
at males.  I don't pretend to be an expert on the subject but my examples
would be the sham of a woman's "right" to abortions, the fact that many
custody battles are won by the mother as an accepted rule, and higher 
car insurance rates for males.
                                  Starr

>
>Also, what would happen if the reverse was true?  I'm sure the government-funded
>women's lobby would pounce.  Unfortunately, there does not exist a similar
>body for men, and most attempts to create one are seen as chauvinist.


>
>Later,
>Murray
>--
>-- Murray Chapman                               Zheenl Punczna            --
>-- muzzle@cs.uq.oz.au                           zhmmyr@pf.hd.bm.nh        --
>-- University of Queensland                     Havirefvgl bs Dhrrafynaq  --
>-- Brisbane, Australia                          Oevfonar, Nhfgenyvn       --
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination
From: dowdy@tochtli.biochem.nwu.edu (Dowdy Jackson)
Subject: An open invite to ALL white folks
Originator: dowdy@tochtli.biochem.nwu.edu
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, Illinois
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 00:37:03 GMT

I would like to invite all white folks who think that what I have
posted is entirely false and hateful to inquire about these issues on
soc.culture.african.american. Just inquire there and judge for yourself
how other AfAms feel. I am just one person, just as you are. Go ahead
and be the "minority" for a spell.

Newsgroups: alt.discrimination
From: kd1hz@anomaly.sbs.com (Michael P. Deignan)
Subject: Re: An open invite to ALL white folks
Organization: Small Business Systems, Incorporated, Smithfield, RI 02917
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1993 03:12:29 GMT

dowdy@tochtli.biochem.nwu.edu (Dowdy Jackson) writes:

>I would like to invite all white folks who think that what I have
>posted is entirely false and hateful to inquire about these issues on
>soc.culture.african.american.

Gee, what a surprise we would receive by the responses. Golly-gee.
Like, if we said "conservatives are scum" in the misc.activism.progressive
newsgroup we would get tons of people disagreeing with us.

MD
-- 
--  Michael P. Deignan, KD1HZ               ------------------------
--  Domain: mpd@anomaly.sbs.com             -  I'm not a bigot,    -
--    UUCP: ...!uunet!anomaly!mpd           -  I hate everyone...  -
-- Telebit: +1 401 455 0347                 ------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination,soc.culture.african.american,misc.education
From: solman@athena.mit.edu (Jason W Solinsky)
Subject: Re: Institutional racism in education
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 20:32:05 GMT

In article <1993Jan26.013053.1166@samba.oit.unc.edu>, Terry.Parks@launchpad.unc.edu (Terry Parks) writes:
|> >|A person with twenty late loan payments is supposedly unfairly denied
|> >|a mortage which is given to a person with only one late loan payment.
|> 
|> >Says who?  What does this have to do with the posted article?
|> 
|> 	"Blacks and Hispanics do, for example, tend to have weaker
|> 	credit ratings and greater debts than white applicants. That
|> 	in turn, contributes to the higher minority
|> 	mortgage rejection rates, the study's authors said."

That is correct. The article goes on to say that this is why the new study was
necessary. Old studies compared people with different credit records, but the new
study only compared people with similar records.

|> >|Now, if the government wanted to find
|> >|actual racial bias, they could simply pick up the phone and call, say,
|> >|the Society of Black Engineers.
|> 
|> >Right.  In any case, Terry, you're wrong.
|> 
|> Since such "studies" never find a "minority" who was denied a mortgage
|> who was a better credit risk than a "majority" who received a mortgage,
|> but instead cook data showing poorer people receive fewer loans into
|> a claim that people who are "minorities" are always denied loans, I doubt it.

In this particular study many hundreds such minorities were found. You would
expect this in the real world though. The reason why the study is significant
is because it is more likely that a minority with a better credit record will
lose out while a white with a worse record gets a loan, than it is for a white
with a better credit record to lose out to a black with a worse record. There
are a hundred different ways to say it. How ever you do, it stil amounts to a
racial bias.

Jason W. Solinsky
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination
From: tim@ais.org (Tim Tyler)
Subject: Re: Maginal whites complain about Affirmative Action
Organization: UMCC
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 16:22:26 GMT

In article <1993Jan14.025508.23805@news.acns.nwu.edu> dowdy@tochtli.biochem.nwu.edu (Dowdy Jackson) writes:
>With all of this talk about how Affirmative Action (AA) is hurting all
>of these poor unfortunate white people, why is it that most companies
>are predominately white, most CEOs are all white, most of the universities
>are all white, etc,etc. Its funny that most whites can't beleive that an:

   Golly, do ya think it could be because whites make up "most" of the U.S.
population?   

>     I am the first AfAm in the PhD program in Molecular Biology at NU.
>I remember hearing a rumor, which was confirmed by my advisor, that I was
>just some AA benifactor. I guess my classmates were in for a rude awakening
>when this AA benifactor kicked their butts in all but one of the classes we
>ALL had to take. Were there whie applicants with higher GRE scores than mine
>? Probably. Were there white applicants with better GPAs than mine ? Probably.
>But GPA and standardized test scores don't tell you junk about how well you
>can perform under pressure..... By the way, 3 white students were kicked out
>of my program that year. I guess they were taking spaces from the more
>qualified white applicants...

   The wonderful chievements of yours which you have so modestly informed us
of simply go to show that there is no need for AA.  You apparently went
head-to-head with whitey & "kicked their butts" in the classes, etc.




-- 
 Tim Tyler      Internet: tim@ais.org  MCI Mail: 442-5735 
P.O. Box 443    C$erve: 72571,1005  DDN: Tyler@Dockmaster.ncsc.mil
Ypsilanti MI    Packet: KA8VIR @KA8UNZ.#SEMI.MI.USA.NA
48197
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination
From: dowdy@tochtli.biochem.nwu.edu (Dowdy Jackson)
Subject: Re: Maginal whites complain about Affirmative Action
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, Illinois
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 20:53:13 GMT

In article <C19K5G.LLH@ais.org> tim@ais.org (Tim Tyler) writes:
>
>   The wonderful chievements of yours which you have so modestly informed us
>of simply go to show that there is no need for AA.  You apparently went
>head-to-head with whitey & "kicked their butts" in the classes, etc.
>
>
The point is that if it weren't for AA I probably would not have been 
accepted into this program. Another thing I pointed out is that AA does
not mean that its recipients can't do the work. I think that I and many
other AA recipients have proven this point. 
     I would like to see all of these so called non-bigoted anti AA people
perform under the same stressful conditions as most minorities. I'd bet that
given the same conditions many whites would fail or faulter as well.
     The fact of the matter is that those "white" students that got kicked
out....where they taking places that could have been filled by more
qualified white students ??? I have yet to hear any white person
bring this point up.
 
>
>
>-- 
> Tim Tyler      Internet: tim@ais.org  MCI Mail: 442-5735 
>P.O. Box 443    C$erve: 72571,1005  DDN: Tyler@Dockmaster.ncsc.mil
>Ypsilanti MI    Packet: KA8VIR @KA8UNZ.#SEMI.MI.USA.NA
>48197


Newsgroups: alt.discrimination
From: Terry.Parks@launchpad.unc.edu (Terry Parks)
Subject: Re: alt.discrimination
Organization: UNC Office of Information Technology
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 01:49:26 GMT

>>>Well I can't speak for you but I have encountered alot of white people that
>>>assume certain things about AfAms simply because of what thet have seen on the
> 

>I may have missed something but, it appears that you have misunderstood
>what Charles was trying to say.  He didn't make a blanket statement that all
>whites act in the above manner.  In fact he states that he has met SOME that 
>assume certain things about blacks from the news.  This doesn't seem to be
>an unlikely prospect.  So with that in mind...what is your objection to the 
>above statement Terry??

Silly me, not knowing that a-l-o-t spelled s-o-m-e. You seem qualified to
make up a "study". Further, why was the racial characterization
("alot of white people") used? I know, I know, a lot of white people
really means some people of all races.

--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination
From: tim@ais.org (Tim Tyler)
Subject: Re: Maginal whites complain about Affirmative Action
Organization: UMCC
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 16:28:27 GMT

In article <1993Jan16.014052.11184@news.acns.nwu.edu> dowdy@tochtli.biochem.nwu.edu (Dowdy Jackson) writes:
>This is just what needs to be done. When someone makes a comment like the
>one your father made, then he must be challenged. I think the problem
>is that very few whites actually interact with AfAms. As a minority, we
>have no choice but to interact with whites because whites control the
>money in this country. If we want a job chances are our employer will
>be white.
 
   Are you saying that (in general), whites don't interact with black, but
blacks interact with whites?
 
  Oh yeah, isn't it the Jews that control $$ in this country?  And don't
forget those 'disrespectful' Koreans...

   Saying that "whites control the money in this country" is just as
ignorant/racist as saying "Blacks control the violent crime in this
country."


-- 
 Tim Tyler      Internet: tim@ais.org  MCI Mail: 442-5735 
P.O. Box 443    C$erve: 72571,1005  DDN: Tyler@Dockmaster.ncsc.mil
Ypsilanti MI    Packet: KA8VIR @KA8UNZ.#SEMI.MI.USA.NA
48197
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination,soc.culture.african.american,misc.education
From: Terry.Parks@launchpad.unc.edu (Terry Parks)
Subject: Re: Institutional racism in education
Organization: UNC Office of Information Technology
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 02:21:47 GMT

>|   Syron and Munnell [the report presenters] stressed that the new
>|   study found no evidence that banks discriminate against minority
>|   mortgage applicants with "perfect" financial and employment
>|   records.

>And exactly *how* is this "cooking" the data?

A person with twenty late loan payments is supposedly unfairly denied
a mortage which is given to a person with only one late loan payment.
I would suspect that poorer people have more trouble making loan
payments than wealthier people so again we have poorer people
getting fewer loans than wealthier people being presented as racism.


>I'll say it again.  You are asserted again and again that the govt has
>"cooked" data.  I have shown you a recent study showing lending bias
>with uncooked numbers (despite your attempt to microwave them) and
>you, once again, are unable to demonstrate your claim.

Were people with equivalent credit defects compared? No. So this data
is invalid for making a bias claim. What about then, the remaining
data where apples were compared to apples? It was reported that there
definately was no racial bias. Now, if the government wanted to find
actual racial bias, they could simply pick up the phone and call, say,
the Society of Black Engineers.

--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination
From: grj1@ellis.uchicago.edu (Matrix)
Subject: Re: alt.discrimination
Reply-To: grj1@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 23:21:03 GMT

In article <1993Jan20.013831.21521@samba.oit.unc.edu> Terry.Parks@launchpad.unc.edu (Terry Parks) writes:
>>Well I can't speak for you but I have encountered alot of white people that
>>assume certain things about AfAms simply because of what thet have seen on the
>>news or have heard.
> 
>This must be the yuck, yuck of the week. Your judgement "white people"
>make judgements of Blaks based on those they have met, based on the
>"white people" you have met.
> 

I may have missed something but, it appears that you have misunderstood
what Charles was trying to say.  He didn't make a blanket statement that all
whites act in the above manner.  In fact he states that he has met SOME that 
assume certain things about blacks from the news.  This doesn't seem to be
an unlikely prospect.  So with that in mind...what is your objection to the 
above statement Terry??

Germaine

>--
>   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
>     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
>        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
>           internet:  laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80


Newsgroups: alt.discrimination