From: gordons@netcom.com (Gordon Storga)
Subject: Re: Jesus Would Gag
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 06:00:07 GMT
Organization: Stay Awake Software

<sbuckley.713172647@sfu.ca> sbuckley@fraser.sfu.ca (Stephen Buckley) writes:
>gordons@coopsol.com (Gordon Storga) writes:
>><sbuckley.712393751@sfu.ca> sbuckley@fraser.sfu.ca (Stephen Buckley) said:
>>>pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey) writes:
>>>>simon@dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Simon Clippingdale) writes:
>>>>sbuckley@fraser.sfu.ca (Stephen Buckley) writes:
...
>>>  disregarding the luke 14:26 red herring, i'll say that the bible is the
>>>one true path based on ten years of studying different philosophies and
>>>spiritualities from all over the world that claimed to explain much of the
>>>workings of the world.  all of them failed me in that they either couldn't
>>>answer all my questions or substantiate any meaning in life.  the bible
>>>answers all my questions, and through it i found meaning in life when every
>>>other avenue of exploration utterly failed me and i was left void of
>>>any purpose in life.
>
>>I'd be interested in hearing what your questions were.  It didn't answer
>>any of mine, but then I only studied it for 5 years, in three different
>>faiths.  Simon puts forth a very fair comparison which you have been
>>unable/unwilling to grasp:  You have no more substantiated evidence for
>>your god's actual existence than he does for Santa's actual existence.
>
>  other nearby posts describe most of my most important questions.
>i'm sorry it didn't answer your questions.  can you tell me which ones
>it didn't address?  

There were many, and individually they might seem like simple unimportant
questions, but when you add them up they constitute a great deal to me.

An example:

Why does an omnipotent being need worship?
Why does god get to be a jealous, vengeful being while we don't?
Why is it ok for god to slaughter millions of people?
Why doesn't god speak to me?
Why doesn't god speak to everyone and stop all the suffering and killing?
What did Jesus sacrifice, and why was it a big deal?
Why is it so easy to kill a god?
How do we know the bible is divinely inspired?
If the bible is so clear and Christianity the *one truth*, then why are
there so many sects?
Why does god allow Satan to make a fool of him?
How do you populate an entire world from two people in 6000 years?
How come the bible doesn't mention dinosaurs?
Why does god demand so many people kill each other with rocks for such
tiny transgressions (such as not observing the sabbath) while Jesus
claims to forgive *anyone* (including rapists and murderers) who believes
in him?

Why is it so many people are willing to take this all on faith but
*demand* that I provide _proof_ that there is no god?

>                    and regarding the santa thing, there is one critical
>difference.  we are not talking about me hypothetically believing in god
>and the bible and the person of jesus. we are talking about a book, a
>physical book which i consider to be real.

Stephen, I could write a book, a physical book, that would support every
contention that Santa is alive and real.

>                                            hypothetical speculation
>ultimately ends when reality takes over. 

Stephen, I believe the bible is a real book.  That does not make it an
accurate  account of events.  You do not necessariyl have reality just
because the book you read is *real*.

>                                         my life and my spritual existence
>are at stake...as is everyone else's spiritual existence and hypothetical
>issues are forever subordinate to real scripture.  

This, to me, is an oxymoronic statement: "real scripture".

>                                                   and you're right about
>me not having substantiated evidence for god's or santa's existence. 

Thank you.

>god and santa are empirically unverifiable which means empirical observation
>can neither prove the truth nor falsity of god's or santa's existence.
>at that point i move to reality, find the bible [a document in reality]
>and drop the santa somantic/mind game.  reality always holds more water
>than a hypothetical.

So if I hand you a book written about Santa you'd automatically start
believing in him?  If the book said he was greater than your god, would
you stop believing in your god?

>>If you met someone who wanted to tell you all about their invisible friend
>>"Pablo" who talks to them, does nice things for them, is going to save
>>their soul, and of course, is going to send everyone else to hell...
>>you'd probably move quickly away from them and/or call the authorities to
>>get this person off the street and into a mental health facility (at the
>>very least you probably wouldn't want your children around this person).
>>But, change the name from "Pablo" to "Jesus" and you'd probably invite this
>>person into your home.
>
>  again the analogy between a hypothetical and a scripture living in reality
>breaks down.  see above paragraph.

A "scripture" doesn't "liv[ing] in reality".

>>And you don't even see this as being logically inconsistent.
>
>  because they aren't logically inconsistent.  if both were realistic options
>for me, the analogy may be better, but there is no gospel of pablo.

Again, I could write one for you real quick.  I feel it coming on now...

>reality checks often weed out the irrelevant arguments.

Incredible!  Just what is real about your religion?  Aside from the fact
there is a book written about it?


Gordon
-- 
The opinions expressed are my own, and not the beliefs or opinions
of whatever company you think I work for.  So there, thhhbbbt!
Message to Kodak:  Freedom for Dan Bredy.