HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hchong@netcom.com (Hoi Chong)
Subject: Re: Maximum number of hours prior to solo?
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 07:36:26 GMT

From article <Bzn31F.17H@utdallas.edu>, by kmldorf@utdallas.edu (George Kimeldorf):
> What is the record for the maximum number of hours prior to first solo?
> Since October, I have accumulated 28.3 hours without being signed off to
> solo.  Is that a record?  Do I win first prize?
> 
> Last week while I was doing touch-and-go's, my CFI requested a full-stop so
> that he could go pee.  I thought that this was "it," but after relieving
> himself he climbed back in the plane and we did more touch-and-go's.  I
> passed a pre-solo written test, acquired my student pilot certificate, and
> even tried wearing an old, beat-up shirt suitable for mutilation.

Somebody posted here before, it was more than a hundred hours, but that is
only because the student refused to solo, not the instructor.  
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.student
From: furtaw@comm.mot.com (Bob Furtaw)
Subject: Re: Questions: logbook entries at cross country stops
Organization: Motorola
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 09:57:54 GMT
Followup-To: rec.aviation.student

In article <C02109.32y@acsu.buffalo.edu>, hull@sybil.cs.Buffalo.EDU (Jon
Hull) wrote:
> 
> Re:  the three solo takeoffs and landings at a tower
> controlled field that are required for student pilots.
> 
> My questions are:  
> 
> 1.  Are the landings required to be to a full stop?  
No 
> 2.  Is a logbook entry required from someone at that airport stating
>     that you were actually there?
No 
> 3.  As long as we're on the topic, where does it say that
>     such a corroborating endorsement is required for
>     any of the cross country flights?  

The reason for all this is that the student is is burdened with the proof
of such cross countries.
The examiner will be looking for the proof at the time of your PP
examination.
The easiest way to do this is to land full stop and get a signature from
someone one the airport
[that can be found  and cross examined at a later date.]  Since the log
book is required to be carried
by students on X/Cs, this is not too inconvenient.

If you can prove by other means that you made the required X/C, no
signatures are required.  I once
knew a person who's instructor never mentioned to get signatures.  The
student had the appropriate
pages in the log book notarized as true.  The examiner accepted it.

Interestingly, the cross country required for CP is not questioned in this
manner.  Only the total 
time, that  each be more them 50 nm and the long xc is properly executed,
but no signatures are 
asked for.  PPs are not required to carry log books during X/Cs so
signatures may be considered 
a burden.

Bob Furtaw - W8IL
CFI-A/G/I/MEI, CGI-A/I
All disclaimers ever written by anybody apply. :-)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.student
From: Bob Noel
Subject: Re: Maximum number of hours prior to solo?
Organization: The MITRE Corporation
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 12:20:06 GMT

In article <Bzn31F.17H@utdallas.edu> kmldorf@utdallas.edu (George Kimeldorf)
writes:
>What is the record for the maximum number of hours prior to first solo?
>Since October, I have accumulated 28.3 hours without being signed off to
>solo.  Is that a record?  Do I win first prize?
>
>Last week while I was doing touch-and-go's, my CFI requested a full-stop so
>that he could go pee.  I thought that this was "it," but after relieving
>himself he climbed back in the plane and we did more touch-and-go's.  I
>passed a pre-solo written test, acquired my student pilot certificate, and
>even tried wearing an old, beat-up shirt suitable for mutilation.
>

My understanding is that, in this area (the northest), a lot of 
students accumulate in excess of 20 hours prior to solo.

Bob Noel
my views are my own, not MITRE's

Newsgroups: rec.aviation.student
From: geoff@peck.com (Geoff Peck)
Subject: Re: Questions: logbook entries at cross country stops
Organization: Geoffrey G. Peck, Consultant, San Jose CA
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 17:53:28 GMT

In article <C02109.32y@acsu.buffalo.edu> hull@sybil.cs.Buffalo.EDU (Jon Hull)
writes:
> Re:  the three solo takeoffs and landings at a tower
> controlled field that are required for student pilots.

I assume you're referring to 61.109(b)(3).

> My questions are:  
> 
> 1.  Are the landings required to be to a full stop?  

No.

> 2.  Is a logbook entry required from someone at that airport stating
>     that you were actually there?

No.

> 3.  As long as we're on the topic, where does it say that
>     such a corroborating endorsement is required for
>     any of the cross country flights?  

No such corroborating signature is required.  Much of aviation is done
on the honor system.  And if someone catches you in a fib, the consequences
can be severe (suspension or revocation of your certificate).

Unless you expect to be flying under very unusual circumstances, I suggest
that as a student pilot you get _substantial_ experience at both controlled
and uncontrolled fields.  That means probably at least a half dozen solo
flights (and probably as many dual flights) into and out of several
different controlled airports, plus at least a few "very full" stops --
stops where you actually go tie down the aircraft, get out, do some stuff,
and then get back in.  If you don't do this, you won't be well-prepared to
operate at controlled airports when you do get your private pilot
certificate.

						Geoff
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.student
From: c60c-3gi@web-3a.berkeley.edu (Masayuki Karahashi)
Subject: King videos
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 07:33:54 GMT


Well, I know King video's were discussed in detail a while back, so I tried
to go back, but none of th news server I can get to seems to have those
kept.  Sorry about this, but back then, I wasn't interested in them, but
now I am.  :(

I recievered this promo video and bunch of flyers from King the other day. 
I tried watching the promo tape and it seems pretty good.  Here is the
deal I am looking at:

	$169	Private Pilot Course
		comes with:
			free video "Takeoff's and Landing Made Easy"
			free computerized Exam Review ($39 dollar value)

	 $59	Private Pilot flight test course 
		(looks helpful and interesting)

		order these two and also get:
			4 free "take-off" videos which some looks interesting

		and also a entry to win a Mooney MSE
		(yeah right, like I'll win :)

	so for all this for $228.

this seems to sound good, and the promo video seems good enough to be
understandable.

Now here is my question:

(1) if price was not a factor at all, which is the best (ie, give me the
    most ground school "education"):

	(a) a ground school that progresses the same time as your actual
	    flight time, ie teaches you ground school stuff as you go along
	    in your actualy training.  This is what's offered at Flight
	    Simulation at SQL.

	(b) totally separate flight school somewhere else.

	(c) the king videos

(2) if price IS a factor, which is the best deal?  Considering the money
    I'll be spending and the education I will be getting.

I don't want to be cheap and compramise education and this safety.  So
I am a little reluctant about learning off of bunch of videos for ground
school...what if I have a question?!?  (I know, post it here! :)

Im really sorry I didn't read all the discussion earlier, but... :(

---Masayuki Karahashi
c60c-3gi@web.berkeley.edu
"I think it's time to change major"
From: khubbard@ems.cdc.com (Kelvin Hubbard)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.student
Subject: Re: Maximum number of hours prior to solo?
Date: 23 Dec 92 14:48:08 GMT
Reply-To: khubbard@ems.cdc.com
Distribution: usa
Organization: Empros Systems International, a division of CDC

In article <Bzn31F.17H@utdallas.edu>, kmldorf@utdallas.edu (George Kimeldorf) writes:
|> What is the record for the maximum number of hours prior to first solo?
|> Since October, I have accumulated 28.3 hours without being signed off to
|> solo.  Is that a record?  Do I win first prize?
|> 

I was talking to a guy at our local FBO the other day, and he was telling me
of a guy he knows who has over 70 hours and his instructor (also my insructor)
will not let him go out of the pattern by himself.  It seems the guy is doing
just fine controlling the airplane, but he gets disoriented as soon as he gets
away from the airport.  Now I don't recall if he is soloing in the pattern,
I assume so, but this is a lot of hours of pattern work.

I know the instructor is not the problem, because I soloed at 9 hours and was
authorized to go to the practice area at 13 hours.  I don't feel my 
orientation skills are all that great.  I have on several ocassions mistaken
one water tower for another when with my instructor, returning to the airport.

Have you tried asking your CFI what it is he feels you need work on before
he feels comfortable with you soloing.  Maybe he does'nt think you have the
confidence to solo yet.  Some people are confident way before they are ready
and others are not long after they have aquired the needed skills.

I am sure when both you and he are ready, you will do great, and the amount
of time it takes makes no difference (except to your pocket book of course).

==========================================================================
Kelvin R. Hubbard                           email: khubbard@ems.cdc.com
Active Software, Inc.           
C/O Empros Systems International            Phone: (612) 553-4560
2300 Berkshire Lane North                     FAX: (612) 553-4018
Plymouth, Minnesota  55441-3694 USA      Mailstop: PLY013

                        In search of the Big Iron.
==========================================================================
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.student
From: brecher@well.sf.ca.us (Steve Brecher)
Subject: Re: Turning
Organization: none, in Reno NV USA
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 10:23:33 GMT

In article <1i37v4INN50e@pith.uoregon.edu> margolin@darkwing.uoregon.edu
(Brian Margolin) asks:

> It seems that upon banking the plane there is a horizontal force component
> exerted at the point where the wings reach the fuselage. I understand that
> this causes the plane to move sideways.  According to what I have read,
> the wings on most planes are positioned behind the center of gravity.  The
> way I figure, the plane should therefore be forced to pivot away from the
> turn.  Why therefore does the plane actually pivot into the turn (as if
> the wings were in front of the center of gravity)?

Forget, in this context, about center of gravity (in level flight, there
is a vertical force component over the wings, but that doesn't pitch the
airplane down, right?  That's because the tail is exerting a downward
force; similarly:)

To quote from "Stick and Rudder" by Wolfgang Langewiesche, McGraw Hill, p.
199:  "An airplane turns because its [banked] wings shove it over sideways
[cause the plane to move sideways], and its tail makes it weathercock."

By the way, the cited book is a classic and well worth reading.

Oh, since you're a new student, you might as well know the answer to
another aerodynamic question that is often discussed.  The cause of lift
is:  money.

--
brecher@well.sf.ca.us (Steve Brecher)
From: BCLEWIS@LSTC2VM.stortek.com (Brian Lewis)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.student
Subject: Re: Maximum number of hours prior to solo?
Date: 22 Dec 92 15:44:23 GMT
Organization: StorageTek SW Engineering

In article <Bzn31F.17H@utdallas.edu>
kmldorf@utdallas.edu (George Kimeldorf) writes:
 
>
>What is the record for the maximum number of hours prior to first solo?
>Since October, I have accumulated 28.3 hours without being signed off to
>solo.  Is that a record?  Do I win first prize?
>
 
I think I detect a fair amount of frustration.
 
Talk to your instructor.  Ask for a candid evaluation of your progress.
Ask what areas you're weak in.  Ask what's standing between you and
a solo flight (besides the lack of an endorsement).  Try to keep your
questions in terms of specific performance, not hours.
 
There are a lot of factors which enter into this.  Have all your hours been
with the same instructor?  In the same aircraft (or at least the same
make and model)?  How long has your instructor been teaching?  Have there
been weather-related delays (high winds, perhaps) where it might have
been a good time to teach but not to solo?
 
There is far too much emphasis put on the first solo, and it isn't
helping you.  It's rather like losing your virginity -- worrying about
it won't expedite it any.
 
Do keep your sense of humor.  And, as another poster suggested, wear a
new shirt.
 
Brian
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.student
From: geoff@peck.com (Geoff Peck)
Subject: Re: Questions: logbook entries at cross country stops
Organization: Geoffrey G. Peck, Consultant, San Jose CA
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 08:12:59 GMT

In article <furtaw-301292093721@145.1.92.170> furtaw@comm.mot.com (Bob Furtaw)
writes:
> The reason for [requiring written verification of cross-country
> landings] is that the student is is burdened with the proof of such
> cross countries.  The examiner will be looking for the proof at the
> time of your PP examination.

Sorry, Bob, but I've _never_ heard of this happening.  The examiner
can usually satisfy his or her curiosity as to whether a student has ever
been at a particular airport by asking a question like "did you eat there?"
or "did you visit the Flight Service Station?"

> If you can prove by other means that you made the required X/C, no
> signatures are required.  I once knew a person who's instructor never
> mentioned to get signatures.  The student had the appropriate pages in
> the log book notarized as true.  The examiner accepted it.

At the bottom of most standard logbook pages is a space for the pilot to
certify that each entry is true.  Simply signing the page is enough -- no
notarization is required.  If you fudge things, and someone finds out,
you could be in a heap of trouble...

						Geoff
					[alphabet soup omitted :-) ]
From: zaphod@advise.larc.nasa.gov (Lyle D. Sanders)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.student
Subject: Re: Maximum number of hours prior to solo?
Date: 24 Dec 1992 16:06:23 GMT
Organization: NASA Langley Research Center, Hampton, VA  USA
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: advise.larc.nasa.gov

zaphod@teb.larc.nasa.gov (Lyle D. Sanders) writes:

|> kmldorf@utdallas.edu (George Kimeldorf) writes:
|> 
|> |> What is the record for the maximum number of hours prior to first solo?
|> |> Since October, I have accumulated 28.3 hours without being signed off to
|> |> solo.  Is that a record?  Do I win first prize?
|> 
|> I have not heard of a record, but I hope it is much higher
|> than your 28.3 hours.  I have about that many hours and have
|> not yet made my first solo.  I would have went solo last
|> yesterday but was uncomfortable since I had not flown in 3
|> weeks, (weather/mechanical/schedule problems)  I also had a
|> new shirt on.  I hope to solo today!

Well, I did get to solo that same day (12/22/92 at 2033z).
I did pretty well.  Three takeoffs and landings, and one
go-around.  (Much too high on final!)  But then the proper
way to salvage a bad landing is to go-around.

Unfortunately, I can't fly again for at least a week.
My club only has one C-172, I wish they would by another.
Maybe I should try to buy a nice C-172 to lease to my club.
Any ideas where to get the money?

Happy Holidays to all, and safe flying to those who are flying!

--  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --  --

Lyle D. Sanders                                      L.D.Sanders@LaRC.NASA.GOV
UNISYS Government Systems Inc.                                  (128.155.4.44)
Mail Stop 157-B                                      (804) 864-7470 VOICE
NASA Langley Research Center                         (804) 864-7604 FAX
Hampton, VA 23681-0001
______________________________________________________________________________

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who endowed us with sense,
reason and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."   -- Galileo Galilei
______________________________________________________________________________
From: jac@asns.tredydev.Unisys.COM (Judy Cadmus)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.student
Subject: Re: Copilot course
Keywords: copilot, survivor course
Date: 21 Dec 92 13:01:29 GMT
Organization: Unisys Corporation, Devon Engineering Offices

In article <1992Dec18.191444.29493@den.mmc.com> zwork@starfighter.den.mmc.com (Michael Corvin) writes:
>In article <921218105446@AltaHopa.ftp.com>, plummer@vax  (William W. Plummer) writes:
>|> I have heard that some schools offer a short course for "copilots".
>|> Should I have a heart attack while flying, I would like my companion
>|> to have enough knowledge to use the find her way to a landing strip,
>|> use the radio and land.  Is there any formal course like this?   --Bill
>|> 
>
>
>I know of a few cases around here where spouses who took the pinch hitter
>course got interested enough to go on to PP-ASEL.
>

I took the Pinch Hitter course in 1989, and now am a PP-ASEL with ~270 hours
working on my Instrument Rating, with plans of getting my CFII.  Needless to
say, I HIGHLY recommend this course.  Heck, I may even be teaching it someday!


-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Judy Cadmus  PP-ASEL, Instrument Student
Skylane N42202                                  jac@asns.tredydev.unisys.com
From: tetsuji@rai.juice.or.jp (Tetsuji Rai)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.student
Subject: Re: King videos
Date: 1 Jan 93 13:08:03 GMT
Organization: juice

In article <992Dec.075.90@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> 
c60cgi@weba.berkeley.edu (Masayuki Karahashi) writes:
>
>Well, I know King video's were discussed in detail a while back, so I tried
>to go back, but none of th news server I can get to seems to have those
>kept.  Sorry about this, but back then, I wasn't interested in them, but
>now I am.  :(
>
>I recievered this promo video and bunch of flyers from King the other day. 
>I tried watching the promo tape and it seems pretty good.  Here is the
>deal I am looking at:
>....
>
>this seems to sound good, and the promo video seems good enough to be
>understandable.
>
>Now here is my question:
>
>() if price was not a factor at all, which is the best (ie, give me the
>    most ground school "education"):
>
>	(a) a ground school that progresses the same time as your actual
>	    flight time, ie teaches you ground school stuff as you go along
>	    in your actualy training.  This is what's offered at Flight
>	    Simulation at SQL.
>
>	(b) totally separate flight school somewhere else.
>
>	(c) the king videos
>
>(2) if price IS a factor, which is the best deal?  Considering the money
>    I'll be spending and the education I will be getting.
>

   I don't know exactly how King's videos are, but I can say you'd better
progress in your practice and ground at once, assuming you've never flown
by yourself before.   You'll have difficulty in ground school unless you 
don't fly, and vice versa.
   IMHO, as for video, it is not so useful as it appears.   I bought one
video(not King's video) about advanced maneuvers, but it helped me only
a little.   Real cockpit view and video view is quite different.
Once you are accustomed to the real feeling, simple figures seen in
the text books are enough; video is not necessary.   Seeing the figure,
you'll easily get how it really is, and what it really means.
Videos can tell how it appears, but don't tell how it feels.
I think video is rather time consuming stuff.   But I'm ordering a video
on spin and stall which my instructors didn't teach me :)  If I could
experience all these, i shouldn't need it.

   I'm a Japanese as you are(if you are not, I'm sorry about that, but
from your name, I suppose you are Japanese), but got my PPl in the US.
I began flying in Tokyo in Feb. 99(very slow pace.   hr/2 or  weeks),
and studied by myself with textbooks(got from the US) and went to Santa Monica,
took written exam, accumulated solo time, and took practical exam(that's
done in  days in the US).  I could finish my ground all by myself in Japan
because I flew much actually in Japan(of course my Japanese instructors 
taught me about basic things, but not about FAArelated things).

   If you can read/write Japanese on your machine, we can exchange Japanese
email..

Tetsuji

RRR              Tetsuji Rai    tetsuji@rai.juice.or.jp
R  R   aaa   i    522, Toyotamakita, Nerimaku, Tokyo 76, Japan
RRR   a  a   i   voice: +855796   fax: +89902
R  R  aaaaa  i
From: margolin@oregon.uoregon.edu (Brian Margolin)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.student
Subject: Willamette Valley Schools
Followup-To: rec.aviation.student
Date: 21 Dec 1992 18:34:22 GMT
Organization: Institute of Molecular Biology
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: fp1-molbio-19.uoregon.edu

I am planning on starting flight lessons and wondered if anyone had any
personal experiences with flight schools in the Willamette Valley of
Oregon.  I live in Eugene and would probably do my training in Eugene,
Cottage Grove or Cresswell.  If you have any opinions about these schools
please let me know.  

Brian
From: hull@sybil.cs.Buffalo.EDU (Jon Hull)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.student
Subject: Questions: logbook entries at cross country stops
Date: 30 Dec 92 04:12:08 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: State University of New York at Buffalo/Comp Sci
Originator: hull@sybil.cs.Buffalo.EDU

Re:  the three solo takeoffs and landings at a tower
controlled field that are required for student pilots.

My questions are:  

1.  Are the landings required to be to a full stop?  

2.  Is a logbook entry required from someone at that airport stating
    that you were actually there?

3.  As long as we're on the topic, where does it say that
    such a corroborating endorsement is required for
    any of the cross country flights?  

Thanks in advance for your help.
Jon Hull
hull@cs.buffalo.edu
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.student,rec.aviation.ifr,rec.aviation.misc
From: aboyd@quantum.on.ca (Andrew Boyd)
Subject: Re: How do I get into the ATC Tower?
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 92 16:43:07 GMT
Organization: Quantum Software Systems

In article <1992Dec18.162734.16509@crd.ge.com> changhs@porsche.crd.ge.com
(H S Chang) writes:
>Well, does anyone know if the Canadians are following something
>different?  Last September I had a negative experience with the
>Toronto tower people:  I was told by the gate guard that I couldn't
>go up there.

Sounds like a normal bureaucratic screwup to me, with officious
security guards thrown in to make your life more interesting.

>Are there two different Toronto Internationals?  

Nope, Lester B. Pearson Airport is it.  Keep in mind that it's a
pretty big airport, and they don't get a lot of student pilots
thru there.  They don't get a lot of private pilots there, either.
Heck, they rarely get anybody there who isn't ATR'd.

>I know I can land on Toronto Island, but I thought it'd be cool to
>see big time operation at the Toronto International and flying between
>Schenectady NY and Toronto was what I'd be doing most often after I got
>my wings.

I think you're a lot better off at YTZ than YYZ, in a GA a/c.  YYZ is
a class F control zone: you not only need controller permission to enter,
you must reserve a slot, just like the airlines.  And, there's a $25  
landing fee, which is explictly designed to keep guys like you and me
away.  Our DOT publicly admits that it costs more than $25 to collect
the fee, but they want to discourage light a/c use of YYZ.  Gives ya
warm fuzzies about your tax dollars, doesn't it?

>Looks like I'll have to stay away from them then.  What a bummer!

Don't stay away from T.O., just use the appropriate airport, like
the island or buttonville, etc.

-----
#include <std.disclaimer>