HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: eager@eagercon.com (Michael J. Eager)
Subject: Re: Duck and Jive (was Re: Pre-Sex Contract )
Reply-To: eager@eagercon.com
Organization: Eager Consulting
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 19:11:59 GMT

In article 1975@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com, bhv@areaplg2.corp.mot.com (Bronis Vidugiris) writes:
>
>If society was actually going after so-called 'dead-beat dads' because
>there was actually no alternative - the woman was *really* stuck with the
>kid with no alternative - I could feel more sympathy for this viewpoint. 
>However, that is not the case a lot of the time.  There could be adoptive
>parents ready, willing, and able to support the child - and the system will
>go after the father to pay to keep the kid with the mother.  So 'the system'
>is not subsidizing just the kid, it's subsidizing 'motherhood' - IMO.

This is heinous.  Do you believe that children are a comodity, owned by 
the government, to be given where and when it wishes?  Do you believe that 
a mother and child should be separated, causing significant harm to the child,
rather than ask the father to pay for supporting the child?

>
>Much of the problem with single unwed mothers not getting support from the
>father appears to be because they don't name him, though I lack the specific
>data on this - (I'm not sure if it's available.)  

This is called a factoid.  There is no evidence, yet it is presented as 
"much of the problem". 

>This shows a problem with
>the current idea of making the man entirely 'responsible' for fathering
>the child - you often don't even know who he is.  We do not seem to do much
>to make the mother 'responsible' for having the kid, and seem to go out of
>our way to pay the mother to keep her kid even when there are alternatives
>available.

Nothing shown.  

There is no assumption that the man is entirely responsible, nor that the mother 
is not responsible.  There is a _strong_ bias in law and custom for keeping 
families intact (see divorce laws) and for keeping children with their parents.

>
>I really think we should de-emphasize going after so-called 'deadbeat dads'
>in the name of 'responsibility', and simply look for other means to solve
>the problem.
>

In other words, let's ignore the people with the obligation and use other
peoples assets to cover their obligation.

---
Michael J. Eager		Michael.Eager@eagercon.com
Eager Consulting		(415) 325-8077 
1960 Park Boulevard, Palo Alto, CA 94306-1141
From: johnf@Auspex.COM (John Fereira)
Newsgroups: ba.singles
Subject: Re: Oxymorons, and other important trivia
Date: 30 Dec 92 18:46:59 GMT
Distribution: ca
Organization: Auspex Systems, Inc.

In article <1992Dec30.020025.5721@finch.scac.edu> jimmy@finch.scac.edu (Jimmy Tubbs) writes:
>In article <16093@auspex-gw.auspex.com>, johnf@Auspex.COM (John Fereira) writes:
|>[...]  It said
|>that "everyone goes to PJ's on Wednesdays".  Sounds to me like an invitation
|>for ba.singles for HumpdayBoink at PJ's.
|
|Uh oh -- now the normal people are going
|to have to find all new places to go to.

Nice try Jimmy boy, but setting that followup line to misc.test isn't going
to work.  Post your flamebait somewhere else.

-- 
+==========================================================================+
| John Fereira        | Auspex Systems | "Ask me about my vow of silence." |
| johnf@auspex.com    | Santa Clara CA |                                   |
+==========================================================================+
From: erc@Apple.COM (Ed Carp)
Newsgroups: ba.singles
Subject: Re: Gerg's a wimp, but Kaiser's a Doberman...
Date: 31 Dec 92 20:42:26 GMT
Distribution: ba
Organization: Bleeding Edge Technologies - 'Sliding Down The Razor Blade Of Life...'

In article <1992Dec29.220253.22998@netcom.com> gerg@netcom.com (Greg Andrews) writes:
>erc@Apple.COM (Ed Carp) writes:
>>gerg@netcom.com (Greg Andrews) writes:
>>>>
>>>>Well, this is going to be a bang-up weekend!  Gee, I'm going to have netters
>>>>around me all weekend! :)  How fun!!  I will be glad to finally meet the
>>>>mysterious "Greg"... :)
>>>>
>>>Mysterious?!?  Yeah, sure.  "I am the terror that posts in the night..."
>>>
>>Well, folks, I didn't get to meet this guy, 'cause he wimped out on me.
>>Wouldn't even poke his nose out his front door to wave.  What a guy...  :)
>>
>
>Oh, were you out there on the sidewalk?  I didn't know that, or I'd have
>let Kaiser out to play.  Kaiser's like that old Life cereal commercial:
>
>	"He's a doberman.  He hates EVERYthing!"

Hah!  Dobies are sweet dogs - if you know how to handle them.  Besides, most
animals love me...they usually have better taste than their "masters".  hehehe

>(whistle) Here Kaiser!  Down boy!  Wanna meet a new friend?...heh heh..:)

I'd love to meet Kaiser!

>:):):):):):):):):):) Greg Andrews   gerg@netcom.com :):):):):):):):):):)
>ObGuindon:  The Carp Diet.  You place Ed Carp in your refrigerator
>            and he takes away your appetite.
>:):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):):)

I have this T-shirt done by Guindon that says, "Michigan Carp - not just for
breakfast anymore!"  I think I'll wear it to the next Boink. :)
-- 
Ed Carp, N7EKG                    erc@apple.com                   801/538-0177
"This is the final task I will ever give you, and it  goes  on  forever.   Act
happy, feel happy, be happy, without a reason in the world. Then you can love,
and do what you will."           -- Dan Millman, "Way Of The Peaceful Warrior"
Newsgroups: ba.singles,soc.singles,soc.men,soc.women
From: eager@eagercon.com (Michael J. Eager)
Subject: Re: Duck and Jive (was Re: Pre-Sex Contract )
Reply-To: eager@eagercon.com
Organization: Eager Consulting
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 06:32:09 GMT

In article 13722@cfctech.cfc.com, kevin@cfctech.cfc.com (Kevin Darcy) writes:
>Nevertheless, the intent of these laws is to
>>ensure that the kid gets his meals paid for, etc. 
>
>That may be their _intent_, but I suspect that the current laws are 
>encouraging the production of illegitimate children, and therefore RAISING, 
>rather than lowering, the chances of children starving, etc. If so, then the 
>reforms being proposed can be justified not only on the grounds that the
>_status quo_ is blatantly unfair to men, from the standpoint of established 
>principles of legal liability, but on economic grounds as well.

In debate class, this is called a baseless assertion, without any 
supporting evidence.  If you can get the assertion accepted, then you can make any 
number of conclusions, none of which are valid.

---
Michael J. Eager		Michael.Eager@eagercon.com
Eager Consulting		(415) 325-8077 
1960 Park Boulevard, Palo Alto, CA 94306-1141
From: erc@Apple.COM (Ed Carp)
Newsgroups: ba.singles
Subject: Re: Oxymorons, and other important trivia
Date: 31 Dec 92 20:31:05 GMT
Distribution: ba
Organization: Bleeding Edge Technologies - 'Sliding Down The Razor Blade Of Life...'

In article <1992Dec31.020534.15144@netcom.com> aahz@netcom.com (Mean Green Dancing Machine) writes:
>In article <72627@cup.portal.com> DeadHead@cup.portal.com (Bruce M Ong) writes:
>>>How many have Irish family names?
>>>Does *anyone* care?
>>
>>	Well, I am proud of my own heritage but on St. Patrick's day,
>>to celebrate it with folks who are from the Emerald Isle, the motherland and
>>inspiration of one of the world's greatest writers (Joyce), I spell my name 
>>Bruce O'Ng. :-)
>
>You turn into an Irish Korean?!

Well, why not?  Gives him another excuse to drink!  :) :)
-- 
Ed Carp, N7EKG                    erc@apple.com                   801/538-0177
"This is the final task I will ever give you, and it  goes  on  forever.   Act
happy, feel happy, be happy, without a reason in the world. Then you can love,
and do what you will."           -- Dan Millman, "Way Of The Peaceful Warrior"
Newsgroups: ba.singles
From: tyger@netcom.com (Kristen Kohlbecker)
Subject: Re: Oxymorons, and other important trivia
Organization:  Boogie Rats on Speed
Distribution: ba
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 03:13:38 GMT

DeadHead@cup.portal.com (Bruce M Ong) writes:
>>>
>>
>>Thanks for reminding me of *why* I gave up on soc.singles, amply
>>illustrated by all the posts which followed this one and escalated
>>quickly into some kind of hormone fight between Ed & Desiree,
>>none of which contributed anything toward promoting singles activities
>>in the bay area.  But then, neither does *this* message...
>
>	I thought this was the fun thread until I came upon the hostile
>stuff between the parties you mentioned. Sigh. I hope people take this
>shit less seriously, and have fun with it instead. After all, they are just
>words, words, words...

Desiree is always hostile...you get used to it after a while...

Tyger
-- 
      Kristen Kohlbecker    And I would choose to be with you
      tyger@netcom.com      That's if the choice were mine to make   
                            But you can make decisions too
      A Tyger and a Lady    And you can have this heart to break 
Newsgroups: ba.singles,soc.men
From: rat@erg.sri.com (Ray Trent)
Subject: Re: Walk away, run away, was Re: Pre-Sex Contract 
Reply-To: rat@erg.sri.com (Ray Trent)
Organization: SRI International, Menlo Park, CA
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 22:28:00 GMT

In the referenced article, oleg@netcom.com (Oleg Kiselev) writes:
>In article <1992Dec21.021844.9653@netcom.com> rohwerwd@netcom.com (Mr. Tickle Monster) writes:
>>>*Her* child?  If you have fathered it, it's your child as well.
>>     If she and I make an agreement in advance and she unilaterally
>>breaks the agreement by keeping the child, then she should live with 
>>the consequences of her decision and raise the child by herself without
>>my support.  
>
>It's her child and yours if you had fathered it.  Period.  If she decides
>that she will keep the little monster alive rather than abort it, then it's
>not the child's fault that she changed her mind.  By having had intercourse

There is a larger issue that Oleg touches on here. To wit, there is
the child that needs to be fed. One question that needs addressing is:
what if this isn't an issue? What if, heaven forbid, the custodial
parent has the resources necessary to feed, shelter, and clothe the
child but would *prefer* to have the non-custodial parent pay for
these things? Does that change whether or not such a pre-sex contract
is a reasonable or valid thing? I.e. is it *really* the needs of the
child that drives this objection? Given past net history, I would
expect different posters to have different answers to this, but it
might be interesting to see my suspicions confirmed.

I'm curious, though, whether this is really the issue or not. Let's
try a little thought experiment:

Suppose the contract had been worded: in the event that a child is
born as a result of aforementioned sexual contact the father shall
receive primary physical custody of the child. Said custody shall
persist until the age of majority of the child unless the father is
criminally convicted of child abuse with respect to said child.

If it changes your opinion any, insert one of the following phrases:

a) the full cost of the child's upbringing will be born by the father.
or
b) the mother shall be obligated to pay child support following the
state's child support guidelines.

I.e.: if you don't get to bash "dead-beat dads" in full politically
correct glory, does this still devolve to sexism against men? Or is
the child's welfare really the whole concern?
-- 
"When you're down, it's a long way up
 When you're up, it's a long way down
 It's all the same thing
 And it's no new tale to tell"                      ../ray\..
From: oleg@Veritas.COM (Oleg Kiselev)
Newsgroups: ba.singles
Subject: Re: Duck and Jive (was Re: Pre-Sex Contract )
Date: 23 Dec 92 03:55:19 GMT
Reply-To: oleg@veritas.com (Oleg Kiselev)
Distribution: ba
Organization: Palo Alto Killifish Loft

HF.HLA@forsythe.stanford.edu (Lisa A. Haupt) writes:
>I feel sorry for you.

Either your humor is to subtle for me or you are missing a few clues.

>No
>wonder you're single!  You attack anyone than even tries to have a conversation
>with you.  

If you are looking at the NET conversations as a way to change your single 
status, you are likely to be dissapointed by the results.  Desiree obviously
knows better.

>I think you should seek psychotherapy.

I think everyone should seek therapy.  Nobody in their right mind would
waste their time posting to the USENET.
-- 
Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian.

Oleg Kiselev                                             oleg@veritas.com
VERITAS Software                           ...!{apple|uunet}!veritas!oleg
From: DeadHead@cup.portal.com (Bruce M Ong)
Newsgroups: ba.singles
Subject: Re: Needing help greeting 30!!
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 92 17:13:56 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: ba

>
>Hi, I've been reading this net for a few months and have never needed the
>support you all obviously have for each other in a crisis.  Is there any
>chance as a new poster, that I could get some advice getting over this
>hump?  I'm having a hard time turning 30.  Not *so* much from me, mostly
>from family, i.e., I'm not married, I'm childless, {it's okay mom!!!} and
>I'm very independent of men.  Any friendly advice would be most welcome!!!
>

	Well. A month or so ago I reached my 30th bday. A great friend sent
me a really wonderful birthday card. So I thought I would share the card with
you and wish you a happy bday:


	[Cover of the card]

	Rumor has it that great minds don't reach their full 
	potential until 40.  

	[Inside the card]

	So you have 10 more years to get your shit together.



>Trish Joselyn
>Advanced Graphics Division
>Silicon Graphics Computer Systems
>Mountain View, CA 94040

	:-)

----
/bruce
Newsgroups: ba.singles
From: aahz@netcom.com (Mean Green Dancing Machine)
Subject: Re: Duck and Jive (was Re: Pre-Sex Contract )
Organization: Don't blame me, I voted for Bill 'n' Opus
Distribution: ba
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 06:32:01 GMT

In article <1h5h27INN4o3@morrow.stanford.edu> HF.HLA@forsythe.stanford.edu (Lisa A. Haupt) writes:
>
>If three people say your an ass, put on a bridle.

Here's one for you, dear Seahag.  Let's see if we can get two more.
-- 
                         --- Aahz (the *other* Dan Bernstein)
                             @netcom.com 

Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6

Virtual anniversary: 10 days and counting
Newsgroups: ba.singles
From: desiree@netcom.com (Desiree Champagne)
Subject: Re: Oxymorons, and other important trivia
Summary: He he ho ho ha ha twitter
Organization: Angst Among Us
Distribution: ba
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 04:36:16 GMT

In article <1992Dec31.031338.21615@netcom.com> tyger@netcom.com (Kristen Kohlbecker) writes:

>Desiree is always hostile...you get used to it after a while...

	Nope.  Not always.  Just sometimes.  Only when a twit shows up.
It's my job.  My mission.  My karmanic destiny.

	It's *fun*...

Desiree
From: aahz@netcom.com (Mean Green Dancing Machine)
Newsgroups: ba.singles
Subject: Re: Duck and Jive (was Re: Pre-Sex Contract )
Date: 23 Dec 92 01:52:58 GMT
Distribution: ba
Organization: Don't blame me, I voted for Bill 'n' Opus

In article <1h837oINNj4q@morrow.stanford.edu> HF.HLA@forsythe.stanford.edu (Lisa A. Haupt) writes:
>In article <1992Dec22.063201.14922@netcom.com>,
>aahz@netcom.com (Mean Green Dancing Machine) writes:
>>In article <1h5h27INN4o3@morrow.stanford.edu> HF.HLA@forsythe.stanford.edu (Lisa A. Haupt) writes:
>>>
>>>If three people say your an ass, put on a bridle.
>>
>>Here's one for you, dear Seahag.  Let's see if we can get two more.
>
>Glad you liked it!

Oooooh, I didn't know you liked wearing a bridle.  Should I find a
riding crop, too?
-- 
                         --- Aahz (the *other* Dan Bernstein)
                             @netcom.com 

Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6

Virtual anniversary: 9 days and counting
From: johnf@Auspex.COM (John Fereira)
Newsgroups: ba.singles
Subject: Re: Steel Tipped Tampons
Date: 28 Dec 92 23:10:21 GMT
Organization: Auspex Systems, Inc.

In article <1992Dec28.221358.2101@netcom.com> bob@netcom.com (Bob Becker) writes:
>In article <tching.2@water.ca.gov> tching@water.ca.gov (Tracy Ching) writes:
|>In article <1992Dec24.073404.14965@netcom.com> bob@netcom.com (Bob Becker) writes:
|>
|>>>How many Bobs are there on ba.singles, anyway?  
|>
|>>Probably too many.  But you  gotta admit, that 'Bob' is quick and easy to 
|>>spell.
|>
|>    'Lee' is quicker and easier.  Sorry about that Bob.
|
|Not true.  Lee has two vowels.  Bob has only one.
|The Bobs win again.

I agree. Even dyslexics can spell Bob.

-- 
+==========================================================================+
| John Fereira        | Auspex Systems | "Ask me about my vow of silence." |
| johnf@auspex.com    | Santa Clara CA |                                   |
+==========================================================================+
From: erc@Apple.COM (Ed Carp)
Newsgroups: ba.singles
Subject: Re: Needing help greeting 30!!
Date: 29 Dec 92 03:38:23 GMT
Organization: Bleeding Edge Technologies - 'Sliding Down The Razor Blade Of Life...'

In article <1992Dec29.024558.963@netcom.com> aldridge@netcom.com (Jacquelyn Aldridge) writes:

>	Hmmm.. don't have any ideas about how to deal with family. Thirty
>for me was great. For some  reason that was the age I had pegged as being
>really "grown-up". 

Are you "grown-up"?  Sorry to hear that ..... and I was really starting to like
you, too...  :) :)
-- 
Ed Carp, N7EKG                    erc@apple.com                   801/538-0177
"This is the final task I will ever give you, and it  goes  on  forever.   Act
happy, feel happy, be happy, without a reason in the world. Then you can love,
and do what you will."           -- Dan Millman, "Way Of The Peaceful Warrior"
From: carole@rembrandt.Sun.COM (Carole Parker)
Newsgroups: ba.singles
Subject: Re: Carole Parker: mail bounces
Date: 29 Dec 1992 05:54:56 GMT
Organization: Sun
Distribution: ba
NNTP-Posting-Host: rembrandt

In article <1992Dec11.070618.26402@netcom.com> marv@netcom.com (Marvin Raab) writes:
>Please excuse the interruption:
>
Excuse me, excuse me please.

>  Carole, mail to you bounces including carole.parker@sun.com
>
That's because that address doesn't exist.  The proper address is:

     carole@peregrine.eng.sun.com
>
>We now return you to our regular program, 

 bbbbbbeeeeeeeeeeppppppppp

>Pre-sex contracts, already in progress
>
Already killed.  So Marvin, can you make it to my Farewell Sunday Brunch on
Sunday, January 3rd?  I probably won't be on the system before then again, so
call me at: 415-968-5235.

Until later--

Carole

I found myself. See? I'm right here! Until later--

Carole Parker
From: HF.HLA@forsythe.stanford.edu (Lisa A. Haupt)
Newsgroups: ba.singles
Subject: Re: Duck and Jive (was Re: Pre-Sex Contract )
Date: 21 Dec 1992 08:00:16 -0800
Organization: Stanford University
Distribution: ba
NNTP-Posting-Host: morrow.stanford.edu

In article <1992Dec18.212743.19227@netcom.com>,
desiree@netcom.com (Desiree Champagne) writes:
>
>N.B.  Merry Christmas -- may Santa bring you oodles of fresh, crisp
>      paper, nice sharp pencils and hoards of women with a burning
>      scatological desire for pleasure.
>
Desiree,

You are an embarassement to the species...I am sorry to say that I am in any way
remotely associated with someone of your caliber.  I feel sorry for you.  No
wonder you're single!  You attack anyone than even tries to have a conversation
with you.  Don't you see, you are setting yourself up for these guys to abuse
you.  I think you should seek psychotherapy.

I hope you have a very Merry Xmas and that your New Year will bring someone
special to your life.

the seahag
Newsgroups: ba.singles
From: akao@.com (Adam Kao)
Subject: Re: Oxymorons, and other important trivia
Organization: Oracle Corporation, Redwood Shores, CA
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 21:25:32 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

In article <1992Dec30.005948.9972@netcom.com> desiree@netcom.com (Desiree Champagne) writes:
>In article <75987@apple.apple.COM> erc@Apple.COM (Ed Carp) writes:
>>  Are you jealous? :)
>
>	Nope.  Just too old and too tired to watch a local version of
>alt.romance.chat rear its ugly head in ba.singles.  If you wanna bbsy-type
>chatting, hang out in arc or on a bbs.  (And please, lose the mutant
>smileys.)


Desiree is probably a lot older than me.  She seems like an intelligent,
strong-willed person.  I should respect her, I should respect her a lot.

But I don't.  And I honestly think that's unfortunate.  No sarcasm.

Adam

"Maybe I'd like her if I met her in person."
From: DeadHead@cup.portal.com (Bruce M Ong)
Newsgroups: ba.singles
Subject: Re: Oxymorons, and other important trivia
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 92 11:46:39 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: ba
  <1992Dec24.071851.13647@netcom.com>

>How many have Irish family names?
>Does *anyone* care?

	Well, I am proud of my own heritage but on St. Patrick's day,
to celebrate it with folks who are from the Emerald Isle, the motherland and
inspiration of one of the world's greatest writers (Joyce), I spell my name 
Bruce O'Ng. :-)

>
>	Bob O'Bob, who sometimes uses apostrophes incorrectly, for fun.
>--

---
/bruce 
"And I want you all to party at my wake just like the Irish folks do."
Newsgroups: ba.singles
From: desiree@netcom.com (Desiree Champagne)
Subject: Re: Oxymorons, and other important trivia
Summary: Bullriders don't die
Organization: My Dad's House
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 19:54:34 GMT

In article <76040@apple.apple.COM> erc@Apple.COM (Ed Carp) writes in
response to Oleg's post:

>Oh, my GOD!!!  Is it *really* Oleg "smouldering dark eyes" Kiselev??  My, my,
>my ... as I live and breathe...  I thought you had died or been fired or
>something, after that last little rucus at Locus.  Good to see you're still
>among the living - and (I presume) still active in alt.flame.

	Wow!  The first suckup post of the New Year...


Sluurrrrrppp,

Desiree
From: DeadHead@cup.portal.com (Bruce M Ong)
Newsgroups: ba.singles
Subject: Re: Needing help greeting 30!!
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 92 14:15:21 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
Distribution: ba
  <1992Dec29.183314.2269@netcom.com> <72562@cup.portal.com>
  <1992Dec30.100829.25559@netcom.com>

>DeadHead@cup.portal.com (Bruce M Ong) writes:
>>
>>	Peer pressure, peer pressure, hypnotic TV commercials with these
>>beautiful couples in them (would somebody please tell the ad agency that 
>>handles the <<Eden Roc Champagne>> account that the 70's are OVER?). ;-)
>>
>.
>[and a lot more good stuff]
>
>amazing.  I wonder if reading news by threads is such a good idea after all.
>The "oxymoron" thread (which, by the way, *I* started with a totally different
>subject, as usual) just got me really fed up, and then I get to
>Bruce, here, with what I have to say was very well stated.
>
>OK, so now I remember why I like ba.singles again.
>

	Thanks Bob! That makes me feel great! I was on a  mucho dose of cold 
medicine when I wrote all that -- maybe  I should suck on these nyquil bottles 
more often! ;-)

>
>	Bob "oh...I though you were...circus midgets" O'Bob
>
>
>(sort of makes me wish I'd used the whole prior line in my 'angry' post)
>--

---
/bruce	"Yay. Tien fu finally delivered our new years lunch... time to turn
myself into a pig."