HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Organization: Middle East Technical University - Computer Center
Date: Tuesday, 5 Jan 1993 16:46:50 TUR
From: <C44590@TRMETU.BITNET>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.soviet
Subject: RAPE AFTER RAPE AFTER RAPE

just read and if you find it usefull,think over it|
=========================================================================
talk.abortion:55893
From: pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Democracy
Date: 6 Jan 93 06:55:34 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

ddc@nyquist.bellcore.com (Daniel Chukurov 21324) writes:

[...]
>	At this point I would like to offer you excerpts from an article in the 
>	anti-Serbian, Belgrade-Rijeka based, weekly magazine Vreme. Please note
>	that in this article the author while blaming the Serbian side
>	for majority of rapes in B-H also states that the other side is
>	guilty of the same of crime. Inference to Western MEDIA BIAS can be
>	found in the first paragraph. I would also like to add that the
>	authors, of the articles featured in this magazine, are the ones who
>	are often interviewed by the Western media in their effort to bash
>	the Serbian side.
[...]

I would just like to pint out that VREME is not anti-Serbian!
VREME is anti-war paper produced by a group of journalist of all
nationalities, many of them Serbs, and predominantly for the Serbian
or better, Belgrade population.
Vreme is not national nor anti-national paper. It simply doesn't fit
that grate.


>Regards,	DDC.


Regards and wishes for PEACE in the New Year.


Ana M. Shane
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: scott@hpcvccl.cv.hp.com (Scott Linn)
Subject: Re: Madam VW, Bill, Uncle Sam and EC
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 21:54:20 GMT

bill@cognet.ucla.edu (William M. Eldridge) writes:
:
: (Funny, all this time I thought Yugoslavia *was* developed.  Thanks
: for straightening me out.)

They *used* to be...

Scott Linn
From: wsbusup2@rwa.urc.tue.nl (Boudewijn Wayers)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: What is Gezimi Yne, Djurdjevak
Keywords: puzzle
Date: 11 Jan 93 15:19:35 GMT
Reply-To: wsbusup2@urc.tue.nl

I am working on a puzzle in a local newspaper for which I need to know the
answer to the following question:

Became Gezimi Yne  Djurdjevak?

If you know the answer, please let me know via e-mail.

Thanks in advance, Boudewijn Wayers.
Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:10442 soc.culture.jewish:24891 soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:1122
From: gst@spdcc.com (Gary S. Trujillo)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: women victims of war
Date: 13 Jan 93 03:58:26 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1993Jan13.035826.18569
Reply-To: gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us (Gary S. Trujillo)
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting

In article <34.969@ZAMIR-BG.zer.sub.org> caa_beograd@zamir-bg.comlink.de writes:
>                  STATEMENT OF BELGRADE FEMINISTS
> 
> We, Women in Black Against War, women from theSOS Hotline for
> Women and Children Victims of Violence, feminists and other
> Belgrade pacifists, wish to voice our protest against all
> international campaigns which are using the fact of the rape of
> women in Bosnia and Herzegovina for propaganda purposes.

From: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Subject: assistance for Bosnian rape victims
Date: 11 Jan 93 19:00:38 GMT
Organization: Glasgow University Computing Science Dept.

From today's Guardian:

	Sisters in Need, co-ordinated by the Women's Peace Archive in
	Oberhausen, is appealing for donations to set up services for women
	raped in wartime.  The Bosnian government claims 14,000 have
	suffered this crime since the conflict began, but the figure could
	be as high as 50,000.  For further information or to contribute,
	contact Ellen Diederich at the Women's Peace Archive, Lothringer
	Strasse 64, 4200 Oberhausen, Germany.

-- 
--  Jack Campin    room G092, Computing Science Department, Glasgow University,
17 Lilybank Gardens, Glasgow G12 8RZ, Scotland   TEL: 041 339 8855 x6854 (work)
INTERNET: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk or via nsfnet-relay.ac.uk    FAX: 041 330 4913
BANG!net: via mcsun and uknet     BITNET: via UKACRL    UUCP: jack@glasgow.uucp
-- 
    Gary S. Trujillo                             gst@gnosys.svle.ma.us
Somerville, Massachusetts               {wjh12,bu.edu,spdcc,ima,cdp}!gnosys!gst
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: vidra@dutsqq.tudelft.nl
Subject: Cro/Mo camps
Summary: -
Keywords: detention camps, human rights
Organization: TU Delft
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 17:25:56 GMT



    Last night (1/5/93) I heard on BBC4 (Radio 4) news at 7 p.m. (6 p.m. GMT)
a report from The Int'l Red Cross about Moslem and Croat-run detention camps 
in former YU. The report said that more Serbs were presently held in those 
camps than there were Moslems and Croats in the Serb-run ones. Inhuman 
conditions were described by survivors interviewed in Montenegro (YU). (The 
news story mentioned people held in 4 ft wide sloping ventilation shafts with 
their own ankle deep excrement and beatings to death.) 

   Has anyone else herad or read about this? 

____________________________________________________________________________
   Andjelko Basic                                        T U Delft / NL
From: pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Zagreb Diary inquiry
Date: 8 Jan 93 21:32:43 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

w0318@desire.wright.edu writes:

>Can anyone tell me where Zagreb Diary went, if it in fact is gone?

>Thanks,
>Andrew Livingston


I have heard that they have problems with the hard disk for several
weeks now. I hope they get it fixed soon.

Regards,
Ana M. Shane
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Another war monger
Date: 10 Jan 93 18:46:12 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Muris Cicic (cicic@cc.uow.edu.au) replies to me:
>I wish your daughter, mother, or sister to be raped in front of you,
>by your neighbour, and wish you to negotiate with the same neighbour
>about the deed.

To Ana M Shane who told her family in Sarajevo was dead:
>If your family (sic!) in Sarajevo, like the Volksduetchers
>in WWII, adhered to that idea, I don't regret for them.

He also wrote:
>Who said we will adopt the same lowly behaviour as our aggressor?

"Will"?

The above qualifies you as a lowlier creature than Milan Stojanovic.

Yes, I know what is happening in B-H is terrible for you, but there
is nothing in what you writes which makes me believe that we should
support your side any more than the Serbs. As I have said before,
with people like you there will not be peace in B-H until everyone is
dead. Everyone.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
From: cicic@cc.uow.edu.au (muris cicic)
Subject: Re: Understanding the roots of hatred - it comes from the TOP
Keywords: peace, hatred, war, opression
Organization: University Of Wollongong
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 93 10:17:20 GMT

pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane) writes:

>My cities are being destroyed, my friends are being raped, my family has been
>killed (in Sarajevo - I found out recently), my people are starving to death,
>living without water, electricity and being a target for sniper!
>And I still say: peace, peace, peace!!!

Look, I don't see the reason to approach any additional 'serious' discussion
with you, for you use to avoid the arguments.  The motives of my comments on 
your postings are to point for other readers what Serbian pacifism, and 
position of intelectuals generally, is like:  let live the killers to do the 
job, and then organise endless discussions who started, who is to be blamed,
and so on.  The only original nazism and fascism in ex-Yu is in Belgrade,
and all other similar ideas (in other republics) are direct reactions to it.
The only proper explanation of current takingplaces can be found in 
insurgence of Serbian madness.  Therefore, 'equal blame' theory is aimed
to confuse nad protect the creators and actors in bloody Serbian spree.  When
they have obtained the war objectives, let's plead for peace.  And this is
the point of of your engagement.  Just as a curiosity, in last few days, 
Slobodan Milosevic said (French interview) that all sides in this conflict
are to be blamed equally.  This is Ms Shane's position, too.  Yesterday, 
Karadzic, and his proven killer Mladic, have pronounced their reserveless 
devotion to peace!  Guess who has identycal position?  Accidentally, the same 
lady.     

As for your comment, your cities are Beograd, Smederevo, Sabac and Loznica.  
They are untouched, and nobody is treatening them.  Adverselly, from those
(and likewise) cities have come ideas about Great Serbia, and killers and 
rapists eventually.  If your family (sic!) in Sarajevo, like the Volksduetchers
in WWII, adhered to that idea, I don't regret for them.  If they are realy 
from Sarajevo, and if Sarajevo were your city, you would never play that 
shamefull role you use to.  

>Muris, you don't have a monopoly on being a victim!

Unfortunatelly, I don't enjoy it at all.  I would rather share it with as many
"innocent" Serbs (*) as possible.  

>Ana

Muris

* see Erlande (1993)
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Vreme
Date: 10 Jan 93 18:30:47 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Ana M. Shane (pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu) writes:
>Daniel Chukurov 21324 (ddc@nyquist.bellcore.com) writes:
>>	At this point I would like to offer you excerpts from an article in the
>>	anti-Serbian, Belgrade-Rijeka based, weekly magazine Vreme.
>>...
>
>I would just like to pint out that VREME is not anti-Serbian!
>VREME is anti-war paper produced by a group of journalist of all
>nationalities, many of them Serbs, and predominantly for the Serbian
>or better, Belgrade population.
>Vreme is not national nor anti-national paper. It simply doesn't fit
>that grate.

Let me concur. Vreme is certainly not a friend of the current Serbian
regime, but neither is it a friend of Tudjman. In the beginning of
the Bosnian war you could sense a sympathy for the Muslims, but there
is not much left of it.

As you say, Vreme is anti-war. But maybe for some people that is the
same as anti-Serbian. For others anti-war may be "Chetnik". A cruel 
thing to say, but hanging out on s.c.yu makes you quite cynical.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: mitrovic@tik.ethz.ch (Srdjan Mitrovic)
Subject: Russian position
Organization: TIK, ETH Zuerich, Switzerland
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 15:46:58 GMT

From NZZ, January 4, 1993 (without permission, translation is mine)

Srdjan Mitrovic
====================


(Part of an article about Start II summit in Moscow and about 
Bush & Jeltsin)

Serbian friends on advance

The declaration of both presidents regarding Yugoslavia sounds 
somewhat oppressing. The topic has been discussed for two hours on 
Sunday morning. The positions of both presidents are very close, 
said Bush and Jeltsin -- however it sounded as "very different", 
especially because of Jeltsin's affirmation, Russia will augment 
its engagement in the peaceful settlement of conflict. This is nothing 
but a warning to USA and NATO, because the Russian side made it already 
clear before the summit, that the peaceful possibilities to settle 
the conflict on Balkan have not been fully used yet and that it will 
oppose a military engagement for no-fly zones in Bosnia. Jeltsin's 
room to act in the matters of Yugoslavia is rather small as was shown 
by his remarks: The pro-Serbian forces in army and parliament articulate 
their attitude more freely than before; because of his weak position, the 
president must listen to these voices.
 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: blazic@ecf.toronto.edu (BLAZIC Joseph R)
Subject: Re: Democracy
Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 19:28:19 GMT

Daniel,

Does the word "patronize" mean anything to you?  Just thought I'd 
drop you a hint.

/Joe Blazic
From: scott@hpcvccl.cv.hp.com (Scott Linn)
Subject: Re: Democracy
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 01:13:56 GMT

ddc@nyquist.bellcore.com (Daniel Chukurov 21324) writes:
: 
: 	Scott, Scott lighten up! And what are you doing posting the articles
: 	during the work hours? Don't you have anything better to do? No
: 	wonder that the HP products are so expensive. I'll tell you, from
: 	now on I am bying only Tektronix products, even Tek Spectrum and
: 	Network analyzers! There you go!

Well, over here in HP-land, we have times known as "breaks".  You know,
when some people drink coffee, some people smoke cigarettes, and others
read notes.  Is that too complex for you?

: 	Now, I guess that the 'media' is getting to you. Don't you know
: 	that in every war there has to be a bad and good side, and that
: 	the 'media' is TELLING YOU who that is, which is not necessarily
: 	the truth, but that is the official government line.

The media doesn't necessarily pander to the official govenment line.  Quite
often, it doesn't.

: 	You seem to have your mind made up on who the bad guys are.
: 	Well, so what. Your mind can be changed too. Wait and see.
: 	I know that that can be the case since you do not seem to be an
: 	independent thinker. Your parrot like responses speak for
: 	themselves.

Convince me.

: 	The above paragraph says it all. Where is your statemant on how the
: 	muslim or Croatian side did not open the doors to all of their camps
: 	neither? I can name some of them for you. But you would not be
: 	interested. Would you?

Go ahead and name them.

: 	And, I will also
: 	tell you that one-on-one, we the people from opposing natioanalities
: 	in the Yugoslav conflict do get along with each very well.

People seemed to get along well when I was in Yugoslavia 3-4 years ago,
but even then there were ethnic flare-ups over quite a large area.  Things
weren't (and aren't) quite as rosy as you make them out to be.

Also, if the opposing nationalities get along so well, why are there
problems with Serbs and Croats in the US?  A Serb couple were going to
be married in Portland, OR, and they canceled the wedding because the
band was Croat.  Go figure.

Another couple canceled their marriage because they were Croat and Serb.

: 	So, buddy, please ease off the bashing of just one side and use your
: 	head in trying to establish more understanding between the parties in
: 	conflict. You can do it!

Funny, earlier you said I couldn't do it.


Scott Linn
scott@hpcvccl.cv.hp.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe,misc.headlines,soc.culture.bulgaria,misc.activism.progressive
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Refugees and babies
Date: 10 Jan 93 18:38:44 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Ana M. Shane (pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu) writes:
>Deniz Akkus (deniz@mandolin.ctr.columbia.edu) writes:
>>I think it is rather sick that the countries that are not taking in any
>>temporary refugees in any numbers worth speaking of are falling over
>>themselves to help the adoption of babies born in time of war.
>>As usual, I am impressed with the humanitarian feelings emanating from
>>the US and Western Europe.
>...
>
>I am appalled with this response! Politicizing the fate of unborn
>babies who surely are not responsible for anything this nasty
>world does!

Ana, I think the point is quite evident. Sure, it is nice that the
Brits are willing to take care of babies, but as a citizen of a
country was have received many refugees from ex-Yugoslavia(*) I
would very much appreciate if countries like France, The Netherlands,
Belgium, The United Kingdom and others were willing to make their 
sacrifice, and not leave everything to Germany, Sweden, Austria,
Hungary and Switzerland, not mentioning Croatia and Serbia, to relieve
the refugee situation. They've been hiding behind nice words of not
wanting to help with ethnical cleansing - well, I believe how much
of that I want.

(*) The main bulk of refugees which have come to Sweden have been
Albanians from Kosovo. They are now being sent back as no war is
going on in Kosovo - at the moment.

-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
From: leovacd@topaz.ucq.edu.au
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Democracy (Dubrovnik)
Date: 6 Jan 93 13:53:08 AET
Organization: University of Central Queensland, Australia


To this question:
> How do you like their beautification project in Dubrovnik?

M.Stojanovic answers:
>> You mean the surroundings. Nothing  **very bad ** happened to Dubrovnik.
>> Well, from P.R. point of view it was a very bad move. From military
>> point of view - I am far from expert.

It is worldwide known fact that the ancient town of Dubrovnik was 
shelled over a several months despite the fact that there were no 
military targets in the town itself. It was made deliberately to 
destroy this exceptional piece of World heritage just because it 
had Croatian flag. UNESCO commission still works on the estimates 
of damages, and some of the damaged buildings in the town simply 
could not be repaired - they're lost.

So dear Milan, how would you feel about it if something 'not very bad' 
happens to i.e. monastery Maleseva, or monastery Sobocani, or any other 
masterpiece of Serbian heritage? Or perhaps some mishap to the bones of 
late king Aleksandar the Good Heart shaked by the mortar shell in Oplenac ...

I sincerely hope that it would never happen under no circumstances, not 
even if some 'provoking snipers' are positioned in a church tower and 
no matter whose cultural heritage it is.

By the way, Milan, I really appreciate your determination to defend your
fellow people and your opinions. That's OK and EVERYONE has a right to do
so. But NOBODY has a rihgt to lie deliberately, like you do in this case.

Regards, 
			Gino
								      
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**************** THE LONELY PLANET IS MY ONLY HOME *******************
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
From: zoran@ee.uts.edu.au (Zoran Markovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Rude cartoons
Date: 8 Jan 93 07:10:41 GMT
Organization: University of Technology, Sydney
NNTP-Posting-Host: mozart.ee.uts.edu.au
Summary: x
Keywords: war
Maaessage-ID: <zoran.726477041@ee.uts.EDU.AU>

Talking about rude cartoons.... Well, here is one

There is a rather gross man in spielhosen and Bavarian hat, squatting
with his backside bared.  Behind him stands a small man in what
is, apperently, a Croatian national costume.  The small guy has a huge
tongue sticking out of his mouth and engulfing the big guys bottom.
The caption reads:
  "I am a Slav, but somehow a Tutonic one is always much sweeter!


Some people.... No sence of decency at all...

Zoran

P.S. Pigs still fly, don't they?

In today's St. Louis Post-Dispatch, there is a cartoon editorializing
the recent entente between Serbia and Russia.  It shows two outhouses
lying tipped over, one labelled "Yugoslavia" and the other labelled
"U.S.S.R."  From the pits beneath the outhouses peer two pigs, one
labelled "Serbs" and the other "Commies", looking at each other with
little fluttering hearts of love all around them.

I thought it was terribly rude.

Victor
-- 
Prof. M. Victor Wickerhauser                      <victor@kirk.wustl.edu>
Department of Mathematics, Washington University, St. Louis, MO 63130 USA
Telephone:  USA(314)935-6771, USA(314)727-0749;     FAX: USA(314)727-4963
Sto se ljuckim trudom uzdignulo, Ljuckim znojem jopet se ponavlja. --Medo Pucic

Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:10463 soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:1149 soc.culture.croatia:341
From: pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu (Ana M. Shane)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.croatia
Subject: All three ethnic groups signed Vance/Owen peace plan
Date: 12 Jan 93 21:54:00 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.


Today, around 7 pm European time in Geneva, all three warring parties
have finally signed the peace plan drawn by Vance and Owen. Bosnia and
Herzegovina is to be a democratic decentralized country ruled by a
government with all three ethnic group representatives. 


Let's hope this is a first step toward peace!

+===============================================================+
|              ___   ___   _    ___  ___                        |
|             /__/  /__   /_|  /  ' /__                         |
|            /     /__   /  | /__  /__                          |
|                                                               |
|                      ***                                      |
|                                                               |
|         Nemoj, sine, izgubiti duse,                           |
|         bolje ti je izgubiti glavu                            |
|         nego svoju ogr'jesiti dusu!                           |
|                                                               |
+===============================================================+ 
+ Ana M. Shane                    pshane@andromeda.rutgers.edu  +
+---------------------------------------------------------------+
From: leovacd@topaz.ucq.edu.au
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Democracy (Dubrovnik)
Date: 7 Jan 93 12:39:17 AET
Organization: University of Central Queensland, Australia


>>In <1993Jan6.135308.13174@topaz.ucq.edu.au> leovacd@topaz.ucq.edu.au writes:

>>It is worldwide known fact that the ancient town of Dubrovnik was 
>>shelled over a several months despite the fact that there were no 
>>military targets in the town itself. It was made deliberately to 
>>destroy this exceptional piece of World heritage just because it 
>>had Croatian flag. UNESCO commission still works on the estimates 
>>of damages, and some of the damaged buildings in the town simply 
>>could not be repaired - they're lost.

>Can you mail the list of buildings destroyed by "a several months"
>shelling? And if possible the list produced by the UNESCO commission,
>NOT by the "Tudjman commission".

There is no need to do so. If the news (including film) presented by 
BBC, Channel 4 and CNN during the siege of Dubrovnik are false, than 
I've posted false information. But I don't think so. Anyway, even if
I could possibly present that kind of list, it wouldn't make any 
difference to you - or would it?

>What is certain is that the Orthodox church in Dubrovnik has been 
>destroyed completely. Houses and other property of the Serbs in 
>Dubrovnik have also been destroyed. But that is not result of any 
>shelling. It's just a part of normal cleansing that the Croats do from 
>time to time to make their country more beautiful.

The same question to you: Any relevant list or prove?

But I can accept that as very possible true. The main reason why I'm
here 'down under' is that I simply cannot share this beauty of today's 
Croatian Croatia.

Regards,
                        Gino

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**************** THE LONELY PLANET IS MY ONLY HOME *******************
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
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.croatia,soc.culture.bosna-hercgvna,soc.culture.europe