HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 23 Nov 1992 23:35:26 EST
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      Clement of Rome (23 Nov)

     CLEMENT OF ROME (23 NOV 100?)

Clement is counted as the third bishop of Rome (after the apostles).
His predecessors are Linus and Cletus (or Anacletus, or Anencletus),
about whom almost nothing is known.  They are simply names on a
list. Clement is a little more than this, chiefly because he wrote a
letter to the Corinthians, which was highly valued by the early
church, and has been preserved to the present day. The letter itself
does not carry his name, but is merely addressed from the
congregation at Rome to the congregation at Corinth. However, a
letter from Corinth to Rome a few decades later refers to "the
letter we received from your bishop Clement, which we still read
regularly." Other early writers are unanimous in attributing the
letter to Clement.  Perhaps because this letter made his name
familiar, he has had an early anonymous sermon attributed to him,
and is a character in some early religious romances (e.g. the
CLEMENTINE RECOGNITIONS).
     One story about Clement is that he was put to death by being
tied to an anchor and thrown into the sea. Accordingly, he is often
depicted with an anchor, and many churches in port towns intended to
minister chiefly to mariners are named for him.

     The Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians (also called I
Clement) can be found in collections of the writings of the
Apostolic Fathers, such as the Penguin Paperback EARLY CHRISTIAN
WRITINGS, translated by Maxwell Staniforth. The letter is commonly
dated around 96 AD, but recently an earlier date has been suggested.
     The letter is occasioned by the fact that a group of Christians
at Corinth had banded together against their leaders and had deposed
them from office. Clement writes to tell them that they have behaved
badly, and to remind them of the importance of Christian unity and
love. He speaks at length of the way in which each kind of official
in the church has his own function for the good of the whole. The
letter is an important witness to the early Christian understanding
of Church government, but an ambiguous witness in that we are never
told precisely why the Corinthians had deposed their leaders, and
therefore the letter can be read as saying that presbyters ought not
to be deposed without reasonable grounds, or as saying that they
cannot be deposed on any grounds at all.

   O God, who hast enlightened thy Church by the teaching of thy
   servant Clement: Enrich us evermore, we beseech thee, with thy
   heavenly grace, and raise up faithful witnesses who by their
   life and doctrine will set forth the truth of thy salvation;
   through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: icsip193@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Subject: The harvest is. . .
Reply-To: icsip193@Msu.oscs.montana.edu
Organization: Montana State University
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 06:26:13 GMT

	. . .plentiful, but the workers are few.  Thus were the words of our
Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.  We are five men, struggling to do the work of
the Lord, and collect the harvest where we may.  Let me fill you in.
	I am the lead singer of a Christian Rock 'n Roll band named "Between
Now and Sunday."  We are trying to develop a ministry that will reach out to
junior high and high school aged kids.  I have a very strong vision for this. 
I believe it is my calling in life.  
	While this vision will not die, we are beset by problems on all sides.
One of them is financial.  At present, we are in need of a mixing board, stage
speakers, and microphones.  We are all college students, and as such lack the
money to buy such equipment, which will run in the neighborhood of $5000.
	I realize that many reading this will feel put off by our request for
donations, concerning the recent televangelist scandal.  I assure you that this
is a real ministry, and we are committed to discipling those outside the fold.
	I refuse to suggest an amount to you.  If the Lord has laid it on your
heart to give to this ministry (and I ask that you pray about it before taking
any action), give the amount that He suggests.  If you do not feel that this
has been laid on your heart, please do not send money.  Either way, we will
appreciate your prayer support.
	For your information, there are five of us in the band.  We are:

		Shannon Peevey - Lead/Rhythm Guitars, Backing Vocals
		Nick Rauch - Keyboards, Backup Vocals
		Rob Adair - Bass
		Trevor McRea - Drums, Backup Vocals
		Michael Waldron - Lead Vocals, Stage Antics

	If you decide to give to our ministry, send a check or money order
payable to "Between Now and Sunday," and mail to either Shannon at 1710 Terrace
Avenue, Bozeman MT 59715, or to me at 42 Langford Hall, same city & zip.  If
you would like more information, my e-mail address is
mx%"ICSIP193@TREX.OSCS.MONTANA.EDU."  Feel free to write to me, and I will
gladly respond.  May the Lord of the Harvest bless the work of your hands.

	   Michael Waldron  "The Renaissance Man"
           Lead Singer - Between Now and Sunday
               
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Via:      UK.AC.SOLENT; 19 NOV 92  9:48:31 GMT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 09:49:00 GMT
From:         Z_STAFF_CL@SOUTHAMPTON-INSTITUTE.AC.UK
Subject:      Celebrating Our Baptism (Are Cristians still Sinners)

From:     Lonnie Schubert <S096556@EARN.UMRVMA>
Subject:  Are Christians still sinners?
> I am only commenting on an assertion by Tom that I perceive to be
> errant.  Namely, "No one has ever been Christian his entire life.  Christ
> came to save sinners, not Christians."
>
> .....
>
> I was baptised at approximately 8 or 9 at my own request.
> (I'm sure my grandmother has the date written down somewhere, if you care
> to know; feel free to look her up and ask. :-)  I remember it, and I
> understood what I was doing and what it meant (and still do).

Lonnie's comments made me think of two things.

Firstly, I'm tempted to agree with Tom, that there is a point at which we
become Christian.  I am not sure if we define it as giving our life over to
Christ or Baptism or Confirmation of First Communion or what.  I wonder if
in Lonnie's case it would have been the moment he decided he wanted Baptism.
It is a question I've battled with for years.  I shall probably continue to
do so.  Not that I'm sure it matters terribly, what you are and what you will
be in times to come is perhaps more important.

Secondly and mainly, the Bible makes a big thing out of baptism and so do
many countries that are known for their growing churches.  Do we ?  I for
one have no real idea when I was baptised except that it was the summer
after I was born.

I have a friend who has just celebrated 25 yrs of being a priest.  He was
going to do the traditional celebration jubilee mass.  Then he got thinking
that perhaps it wasn't right to do so while his fellow believers weren't
celebrating becoming a Christian. He's right in a way, why celebrate one
sort of ministry above another ?  If we don't celebrate being part of
a Royal Priesthood and our commissioning through baptism, why celebrate a
full-time, paid priesthood commissioned through ordination especially ?

How many of you will celebrate your day of baptism or of you convertion this
year ?  How many can remember the date ?   I can't remember my own.

Carol A Long,  Southampton Institute of Higher Education, England
        email     :  Z_STAFF_CL@UK.AC.SOUTHAMPTON-INSTITUTE
DISCLAIMER - merely musings unless otherwise stated.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: S096216@UMRVMA.umr.edu
Subject: Christian Shirt Designs
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 03:34:06 GMT
Organization: Univ of MO - Rolla

Christian Campus Fellowship of UMR is looking for some designs for their
annual T-shirt/sweat shirt.  If you have any good phrases or verses that
would help to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ, I would like to here
from you.  Post them on the news or email them to me and I will collect
and repost them together at a later date.
Thanks - Walter
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 23 Nov 1992 09:01:59 CST
From:         A16905@ITESO.BITNET
Subject:      Re: The Gospel

Why, Eric ?

Why did you warned me to see if jesuites speak about spiritual things and
not about worldly things ?

Why do you believe that jesuites are anti-capitalists ?

Don't you know about the social doctrine of the Church ? Why then you
speak about revolutions san stuff ?



                        and (should be above)


How can you say to someone 'Go, may the Lord bless you' if you see that the
social political and economical system is killing  him and his family ?
How can you stay pasive before that ?

I am not saying that a war or revolution is the right way, but at least
it is something.

Shalom,
Memo.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Tue, 17 Nov 1992 07:43:02 EST
From:         "Michael A. Kline" <MKLINE@VDH.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Gays in the military
              17 Nov 1992 11:03:28 GMT from <pmoloney@MATHS.TCD.IE>

On Tue, 17 Nov 1992 11:03:28 GMT Paul Moloney said:
>2893684@QUCDN.QueensU.CA (andy) writes:
>
>>In article <CHRISTIA%92111109531997@ASUACAD.BITNET>,
>>AMZIMM01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU (Angela Zimmerman) says:
>
>>>>their life, if they can't, the entire mission WILL collapse.  Frankly, gays
>>>>will NOT work in the military because they would undermine the entire
>system,
>
This may  well not  happen anyhow. Already  rumors are  circulating from
several  sources that  if Clinton  does lift  the ban,  resignations and
early retirement requests will number in the tens of thousands.

What would really  be interesting would be that if  this were to happen,
or almost happen, and the security of our nation were to be compromised,
what would  the reaction of  the gays be?  Would they still  insist that
they  be  allowed   in?  Would  their  "desire"   outweigh  the  pending
resignation of some 10-30,000 commissioned  officers, or would they say,
"Wait, let's see if we can work this out..."

Will  Clinton also  offer  honorable  discharges for  all  who want  out
because of letting gays in?

We'll  see.  Actually  the  figures  started at  a  couple  of  thousand
resignations from  either 700 Club or  Rush, and I think  I've heard the
same on CNN, but  the other day someone was saying it  was up to 20,000.
This was  only officers, it's  hard to  say what the  "troops" reactions
would be.

I  also wonder  what the  reaction would  be to  "If you  are HIV,  it's
instant dismissal."  After all,  if you  get cut,  you'll lay  there and
bleed to death as none of us are  willing to put our life on the line to
simply put  a band aid  on the cut.  That's actually now  circulating in
Civil Air  Patrol training.  They suggest  you carry  a pair  of kitchen
rubber  gloves just  in case  you  come upon  an injured  person in  the
field. They also teach  you do *NOT* have to treat  a bleeding victim if
you don't  want to. Because  of HIV/AIDS, you  just don't know  what the
danger is of treating  a wound. In combat? There was a  case of a person
on a bus crash that was unscratched but splattered with blood from other
victims on  the bus  and converted  to HIV  positive. Again,  in combat?
How many are willing to take the chance of "If you get shot, and some of
your  blood gets  on  me, I  could  get  AIDS even  though  I was  never
touched." The  CDC has  3 documented  cases of  blood on  intact skin...

The Army  *DOES* test for  HIV. There is no  choice in the  matter. Will
the gays want this  eliminated, or will they be hoping  that if they are
tested positive they get free health care, again asking all us taxpayers
to  pay for  their  lifestyle?  Not being  hateful,  I'm  not, but  just
wondering what the motivation is...
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 16:25:32 CST
From:         Tom Brewer <NOTTMB@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Are Christians still sinners?

Lonnie:

You and John the Baptist have a lot in common :-)

I think of Paul who probably thought he was a good Godly man while he was
killing Christians and persecuting the Church. Then all of a sudden his
eyes were opened to the truth. He got saved!

I think the Pharisees also considered themselves believers from birth;
something about saying they could see when Jesus told them they couldn't
see.

Tom
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 07:59:14 CST
From:         Tom Brewer <NOTTMB@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Calvin, Edwards, Augustine

Since "free will" is now off limits for discussion, I thought I would just
send along some references that anyone who wants to can look up. This is not
just for Mark Drake, but I think it was Mark who had referred to R.C. Sproul
mentioning Calvin and Edwards.

Mark, you mentioned Calvin supporting free will along with Edwards. I decided
to look up some references for you in the Institutes that you can go read to
better understand what Calvin really says. Interestingly, Calvin also relies
on some of what Augustine has to say about free will too. I think if you read
their writings you will find neither man believes in the "free will" of the
Arminian and Roman Catholic.

If you have access to Calvin's INSTITUTES OF THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION, look
up Book II and read Chapter 5 entitled "Refutation of the Objections Commonly
Put Forward in Defense of Free Will."

If you have access to Augustine's ON GRACE AND FREE WILL, you should read a
few chapters in that too. Chps. 28 & 29 Augustine explains how faith is a
gift from God. Chp 31 defines the operation of "free will" as Augustine uses
the term. Chps. 41 - 45 Augustine gives his understanding of how God operates
on men's hearts and turns their wills as He pleases.

As for Edwards, if you can get the popular two-volume work, look in volume 1.
You will find A CAREFUL AND STRICT INQUIRY INTO THE MODERN PREVAILING
NOTIONS OF THAT FREEDOM OF WILL. Don't skip the preface because Edwards says
he opposes free-will and moral agency as "an Arminian doctrine." He defines
his use of the term will in Part 1, Section 1. You will find the conclusion
of Part 2, Section 1, reads, "Thus, this Arminian notion of Liberty of the
Will, consisting in the Will's self-determination, is repugnant to itself,
and shuts itself wholly out of the world."

Since you seem to be reading up on the subject, I just thought I'd offer
some references.

Tom Brewer
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1992 11:58:03 EST
From:         carol nemec <YA67@FERRIS.BITNET>
Subject:      Give thanks and praise...

Thanksgiving(based on Psalm 103)

My soul, give thanks to the Lord;
  all my being, bless His holy name.
My soul, give thanks to the Lord,
  and never forget all His blessings.
It is He who forgives all your guilt,
  who heals every one of your ills,
who redeems your life from the grave,
  who crowns you with love and compassion,
who fills your life with good things,
  renewing your youth like an eagle's.
Give thanks to the Lord, all His works,
  in every place where He rules.
My soul, give thanks to the Lord.
  Give thanks to the Father Almighty
to His Son, Jesus Christ, the Lord,
  to the Spirit who lives in our hearts,
both now and forever. Amen.
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X-Orig-To: Christia@asuacad
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1992 14:46:29 CST
From:         THERESA BLACKWELL <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
Subject:      "the Lamb Has Prevailed"

Angels stand in silence as they wait on heaven's borders
To witness what the Father would not see
Tears from their eyes, fall like rain among the thunder
As they watch the Precious Lamb on Calvary
His last breath is diminished, there's a shout of "It is Finished"
It's over now, they brush their tears away...
Returning to surround the Throne, they gather around the Father
As the Host of heaven sings this song of Praise:
----------------
Alleluia, alleluia
Sin has been defeated, the Enemy has failed
Alleluia, alleluia
Redemption is completed, the Lamb Has Prevailed
-----------------
If I could climb a mountaintop, reaching high above the nations
I would lift my voice in a mighty melody
If the song could reach around the earth and get the World's attention
I would sing about the LAMB THAT SET MEN FREE!!!
----------------
ALLELUIA, ALLELUIA
SIN HAS BEEN DEFEATED, THE ENEMY HAS FAILED
ALLELUIA, ALLELUIA
REDEMPTION IS COMPLETED, THE "LAMB HAS PREVAILED"
=================================================================
Words and Music:  Mark Trammell
Album:  "Climbing Higher and Higher"  --The Cathedral Quartet
Printed exclusively for Christia list, and the encouragement of
all who subscribe. HE REIGNS Gang!!!
Let's tell the world! :)   (Whatcha say?)
-----------
(This was a "had to" guys....I promise! couldn't resist! ;)
"G"

 * <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1992 09:48:06 CST
Comments:     Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X
From:         JLong <JLONG@UA1VM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Gays in the military

Dan,
 Why are you trying to defend it so?

Janie
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 08:53:39 EST
From:         TQX@CORNELLC.BITNET
Subject:      A Note of Praise

    Our pastor read an excerpt from a letter yesterday from one of the
missionaries we support who is with Wycliffe in Zaire. Roger Van Otterloo
reports that after two years of being closed, the public schools in
Zaire are reopening. Not only that, but about 15,000 young Africans will
be using a bible curriculum that he has developed in the Kifuliru
language. This is taking place in the **public** schools. Why is it
that we have to lose freedoms before we recognize their true value?
    We can praise the Lord for what is taking place in Zaire and pray
that once again Jesus Christ can once again be freely discussed in
public schools in the United States.
                                                      In Christ,
                                                      Claude Garner
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: mktjadx@gsusgi2.gsu.edu (Jeff A. Dilcher)
Subject: Re: Ozzy Osbourne
Organization: Georgia State University
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 14:54:31 GMT

Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET> writes:

>Not everyone that claims CHrist, has him.  If you do not have the Spirit of
>Christ living within you, then you do not have Christ


And not everyone who appears worldly is of the devil.  Things are not what
they appear.       

Aren't you glad it is *not* up to us to decide?
:)

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From: jmrg9881@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Jon Reid)
Subject: Re: Cell Group Churches and Leadership
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 18:04:53 GMT

 >Why don't we take a look at what the Bible says the qualifications
 >are.  Are they to be good in "cell churches"?  What about their
 >doctrine?  Read 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus.

Paul's comments in these letters about elders and deacons are very
interesting, in that they don't say anything about what an elder is
supposed to _do_.  Instead, they focus on _character_.  It would seem
that the primary task of these leaders is to model the lifestyle that
is to be transferred to members of the body.  This is borne out by
other statements which Paul makes:

"Therefore I urge you to imitate me.  For this reason I am sending to
you Timothy my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord.  He will
remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what
I teach everywhere in every church."  -- 1 Cor 4:16-17
  (Note that Timothy, Paul's disciple, must have the same "way of
life" as Paul in order to be able to demonstrate it to the Corinthian
believers.)

"Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ." -- 1 Cor 11:1

"Join with others in following my example, brothers, and take note of
those who live according to the pattern we gave you." -- Php 3:17

"Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in
me -- put it into practice." -- Php 4:9

"You became imitators of us and of the Lord..." -- 1 Thes 1:6

"For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example.  ...We
did this... in order to make ourselves a model for you to follow." --
2 Thes 3:7a,9b

"...Set an example for the believers in speech, in life, in love, in
faith and in purity." -- 1 Tim 4:12b

"In everything set them an example by doing what is good." -- Tit 2:7a

These "imitate me" verses used to puzzle me; I thought they sounded
arrogant, as if Paul were saying, "I'm perfect."  Only recently, as my
church has begun transitioning to a cell group church, have they
suddenly made sense:  Modeling is central to discipling, and
discipling is what leaders in the church are supposed to do.  It is
not a program, not a curriculum -- it is Life, demonstrated for others
to see.

 >So who is teaching the flock?

Heh, see above.  Discipling *is* teaching.

-- 
Jon Reid    j-reid@uiuc.edu    GEnie: THE.REIDS
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose."
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Resent-Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA
X-Resent-Date:  Mon, 16 Nov 92 12:15:43 EST
X-Resent-From:  "SHELBY A. CROSS" <LIBSAC@EMUVM1>
X-Resent-Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA
X-Resent-To:    SO5152@doc.flc.colorado.edu
Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 12:25:28 EST
Comments:     Resent-From: "SHELBY A. CROSS" <LIBSAC@EMUVM1>
Comments:     Originally-From: "SHELBY A. CROSS" <LIBSAC@EMUVM1>
From:         "SHELBY A. CROSS" <LIBSAC@EMUVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      Reply-Change of Subject

Sorry Christia, I'm trying to write to Glenn, but I couldn't get through
to his private e-mail line.  I just hope this gets through.
Shelby--
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
This message came back and I hope you receive this second time (Smile).
Shelby--
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Hi Glenn,

This has happened to  most of us one time or another. I  know this is not
much of a  comfort, but there is  life after receiving this  kind of news
(Smile). Disappointments are  going to come in life, but  the very reason
that you have Christ  in your life, then you are  able to overcome life's
obstacles on this journey. Remember you  can do all things through Christ
who strengthens you.  Also, the joy of the Lord  is our strength. Delight
thyself in  the Lord,  and He will  give you the  desires of  your heart.
Since you have such a good start by saying that you have every confidence
that you are going to bounce back  with God's help, then receive that and
all systems are  go. Remember there are  more women than men  on this old
earth, so the advantage is really in your favor (Smile)!!!!!!
Getting serious  though, look for Jesus'  help in every situation  of our
lives.  This one is no different.

Dear Heavenly Father,

We thank  you for all  your many blessings  and benefits that  you bestow
upon us. Father  we ask you in  Jesus Name to comfort Glenn  and help him
to concentrate on his studies right  now. Give him your wisdom and under-
standing, and let him  prosper at whatever he sets his  hands to do. Give
him Your peace, joy, and love througout  all the many trials that he goes
through. Bless  him abundantly and give  him the desires of  his heart as
he  lines up  with  your Word.  In  Jesus  Name I  pray.  Amen and  Amen.

Your sister in Christ,

Shelby--
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