From: d40937@aiken (Jean Yves Desbiens)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: Cuba : Is an embargo still necessary?
Date: 24 Dec 92 21:49:45 GMT
Organization: Ecole Polytechnique de Montreal
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

Christopher Morton (cmort@NCoast.ORG) wrote:
: by d40937@aiken (Jean Yves Desbiens):
: > such an arrogant argumentation , taking my post and changing selective
: > words to proove a point, won't sway me that's for sure.
: > 
: I figured it wouldn't sway you.  I didn't think you'd like it either.  Of 
: course I don't have any obligation to post things that you LIKE.  That you
: were SOOOO agitated by it certainly indicates that it got to you.  Good.

What is the point then, If it just to iritate me, why do you bother 
posting at all, this is supposed to be a place to convince people 
of your point not just throwing them catch phrases and hoping it will
make a sentence.

: > Fascism existed in south africa before Hitler, Germany didn't invent it. 
: > As for the spread of apartheid , apartheid is a homegrown solution and
: > there wasn't : > any reason for it to spread, where could it go.
: 
: Really?  The borders of RSAF can expand as far as they have men and materiel
: to expand them.

All attacks where originally to get to the bases of those that attacked
them (ANC), there was no initial design on the countries around them,
their involvment in Angola started the same way. Their is a parallel
here between the way they treated surrounding countries and the way
Israel treats surrounding countries. 

: "Fascism" existed in South Africa before Hitler?  How about describing this
: "fascism"?  The antecedents of NAZISM originated in Austria.

You are wrong, fascism is not a thing that crawled out of the bush suddenly,
this is the dictionary definition (traduction for French) :

Fascism : Regime established in Italy from 1922 to 1945 based on dictatorship,
patriotic exaltation and corporatism.

You see that Hitler didn't invent it, the word first stuck to 
Mussolini, the word is of italian origin, but there existed countries
like south africa that espoused fascist doctrines before they were 
named as such.             

: > You are confusing the fact that before 
: > the last few years there was a clear distinction between private 
: > matters (racism) and global matters (communism) the latter 
: > upstaging the former by far. 
: 
: "PRIVATE"?  RSAF's neighbors didn't think it was so "private", especially
: when SADF personnel were wandering back and forth across their borders at 
: will, KILLING people.

I said that before the 80's, those events where not considered important
when compared to the cold war and communism. Is is not my policy but
the US's policy in that period, the south african's were decidedly
anti communist and their racism was a price the US was willing to pay.

: People in Angola and Mozambique might disagree.  Other places too.
: 
: > is under the boot of the US is because it makes a nice easy target
: > with political gains to be made amongst the cuban american, if this is
: > not so then explain why China is on much better terms with the
: > US even though they are reputed for their zero tolerance to dissidents
: > and other evil foes. 
: 
: China has nuclear weapons.  If Cuba did, we'd be nicer to them too.

You didn't put a smiley so I have to conclude that you find this normal,
you then I have the same twisted sense of what is right as the 
american leaders of now an yesterday. From what you say only those
can defend themselves have earned their right to a dictatorship.
And you expect me to conclude that it is a good reason to continue 
the embargo on Cuba. Really ?

: > First , the US didn't really help the USSR during WWII, they had begun
: > to fight back the germans before D-day. I submit that if D-day hadn't
: 
: Then the Soviets built all of those P-39s, P-40s, P-47s, White halftracks, 
: etc, etc, etc. themselves?  Lend Lease was just a myth?  Buy a history book,
: you might enjoy it.

Go get yourself your own, that was pitance compared to what they needed,
the US didn't save Europe, most of the damage done to the German's was 
done on the eastern front which was some sort of hell to them. It is by
their shear numbers that they overwealmed Germany not by some token
piece of machinery.

: > come, the russians would have beaten the germans by themselves. The Russians
: > were asking for a second front since 1942, but by the time they got it
: > in June 1944 it was no longer absolutly necessary. At the end of the war,
: > the americans wanted as much to beat the germans as to prevent the
: > russians from taking all germany. So again their motives were not
: > pure in their *help* of the russians. 
: > 
: Can you name somebody with "pure" motives?  I didn't think so.

What kind of reply is that, you tell me that the US helped Russia and
when I show you that it is at best a half truth, you tell me 
that that was expected. At least be consistent. 

: > The US did not have and still does not have to urge to get rid of every 
: > fascist country, only those that cross its path. There are numerous 
: > examples troughout the 20th century :
: > 
: Yes, and?  I suppose we invaded Finland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, 
: Afghanistan, Poland and Czechoslovakia too....

Lets see, first of all Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Czechoslovakia and
Poland. They were all traded off at Yalta I think, Rosevelt did 
a very bad deal then. They were all under control of a local communist
party that was manned by local despots, only if they wandered from
the true faith did they suffer ( Hungary 1956, Czechoslovakia 1968 ).
They were on the USSR's leach, but should you really be comparing the 
actions of a totalitarian regime with that of a democracy, I think
not, the results are not very flatering for the democracy. At least 
the USSR was consistent internally with its external actions which is
not the case of the US. It is this discrepancy that I abhore.

: > - Iraq , Sadaam was a good guy (sic) until he attacked the oil fieilds
: >   of Koweit, the US supported him during the Iran-Iraq war; 
: 
: Just like Stalin was temporarily a "good guy" as long as he was fighting the
: Germans.  Think we should have left him to the Germans?  Maybe we would have
: had "pure motives" then....

Your kind of logic is hard to follow, the Iran-Iraq war declared by Irak
unlike Russia who was attacked by Germany, still because the US tought they
could gain some advantage by destroying muslim fundamentalism they supported
Sadaam. That doesn't compare especially when the true nature of Stalin's
reign wasn't know during the war and as to being left to the german's
this would have been as I said earlier to Stalin's advantage because
he would had won in the end.  

: > - Afghanistan , the Moujahadine are not saints, they are now fighting
: >   themselves and they grew and still grow opium for the heroin market;.
: 
: Let's bomb your hometown flat, torture your parents and rape your sister, then
: see what YOU are willing to sell....

Distorted logic again? They are *still* killing themselves 
and Russia is not involved, they are still selling opium and they were
selling it before 1979, what escuse did they have then for selling it 
and why are they stabbing themselves in the back now.

: > None of these involvments were justified locally, but what's good 
: > for the US is good for the world :-| so they were still done.
: 
: I'd list ALL of the dictators that the Soviets and Chinese and CUBANS have
: supported, but I have to be someplace in an hour....

Again you are comparing a democracy with totalitarian regimes, this is
not something you should do unless you want to have heavy remorses on
your conscience. And for every evolvment all of those countries have
done the US has replied, it has even added its own involvments just to
make sure that it held the first rank in the list of countries that 
put their nose in everybody's business. 

I see that you didn't explain the rest of my list, there are no 
explanations that can be found. They where absolute unwaranted 
involvments in other peoples affairs.

: > it is to be meaningfull. Compared to the other countries
: > that the US has associated itself with, the cuban's human rights
: > record is not even close to being the worse. Hypocrisy is
: 
: I have friends whose relatives became fertilizer on the Isle of Pines who
: disagree.

Knowing somebody like that is not the proof that it is the most evil country
on the planet, of course it is a very emotional example that is often
used to justify an action when presented to the media's.      
I didn't say that they didn't do anything, almost every country including
the US has some blemishes on their record, but you have to keep it 
in perspective, they are not close to being the worse. Besides, the cuban 
americans have for years been doing a very nasty propoganda bit against
Cuba so it is difficult to know what is true from what is not. 

: > That's what the US does on a regular basis, selective moral comtempt.
: > if the cuban embargo was based on a true altruistic do good attitude
: > it would be applied consistently against all those countries that
: > infrindge international law, if it is not so it must be a purely
: > political decision. 
: > 
: I'll be damned if I can name ANYTHING based on "true altruism" which has
: caused less harm than good.

You must then live in a very cynical world, when not applied to the whole
world altruism can do good. The problem is that the altruism used in
international politics is tainted with all sort of hidden agendas
that twist it around and gives its not so benign nature.

: > we do not support the cuban embargo though, we can travel
: > to Cuba without hastle and their goods are readily available here.
: 
: Wrong kind of dictatorship I guess....

If you remember what preceded Castro, you would see that he has not
been such a bad *dude*, the preceding regime led to poverty, 
a very decadent atmosphere (HAVANA in the 40's an 50's look it up) ,
little education and health care, american companies took all and
gave nothing back. That corrupted regime was supported by the 
americans, Is Cuba worse of now, if it were not for the embargo 
it would in great economical shape. Again we don't support an embargo
on Cuba because it is not necessary, let history run its course don't
try to help it by twisting an arm.

--
SEIZE THE DAY, MAKE YOUR LIFE EXTRAORDINARY .  "Dead Poets Society"

Jean-Yves Desbiens                  | d40937@info.polymtl.ca
Etudiant en genie informatique      | 
Ecole Polytechnique de Montreal Can | To indeed be a god ...,
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