From: osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: Mortal danger?
Date: 27 Jan 93 19:29:32 GMT
Article-I.D.: cbfsb.1993Jan27.192932.6676
Organization: Twilight Zone

In article <1993Jan27.054155.19286@den.mmc.com> hobbes@spacemanspiff.den.mmc.com (Stephen Camp) writes:

	[snip]
>
>Anyways, to the matter at hand... I am a born-again Christian and to this
>minute I still struggle with resolving what Christ would do in a situation,
>and what _I_ would want to do.  

>and someone pops me in the face, or threatens to mug me, how much better 
>if I "turn the other cheek" and allow that to happen.  

	AHA!  I was wondering if you'd mention this.

>Now, I _do_ not know if that is what Christ meant or not.  

	Precisely, so forget the bible, at least for a moment.  What you call
	the bible accounts for about 1% of the early writings that once were
	all candidates for inclusion in the "official" book.  The RC church
	chose, cut, pasted and edited the writings as they saw fit.  On top
	of this, what you now read are at least third or fourth generation
	translations and rewrites of the originals.  My former SO's father
	was a Jesuit, specializing in ancient languages.  He had intimate
	knowledge of Aramaic and ancient Greek.  He has read virtually all the
	early Christian texts, including those of "The Bible".  They are VERY
	different from the later translations in to English etc.  

	My point is that you can't know what Christ said or meant, or even
	if he was real.  But you can know yourself and I firmly believe that
	what you ARE is proper and correct and that if you listen to what
	your little voice tells you (and I mean listen honestly without
	allowing ambition to cause you to interpret, no mean task) then you
	will almost always do the "right" thing.

	From everything that I have been able to gather about Jesus Christ,
	I believe he was a proponent of being as good to each other as is
	reasonably possible, and perhaps even unreasonably so in rare and
	extraordinary circumstances where you feel it is the best thing to
	do.  I do not believe he was a proponent of stupidity, which is what
	many Christians seem to believe in a roundabout sort of way.  I do not
	believe that Jesus would have you be at war with your nature because
	I do not believe that people's intrinsic natures are Evil(tm) the
	way Christians, Jews and Muslims often assume.
	

>Surely if I'm in an argument and someone
>slaps me across the face to insult or humiliate me, I think it best to take
>it.  

	In general I agree, but I would not say that this is always true.
	I could care less if someone tries to insult me, yet when I was
	a teacher in the South Bronx and a student would insult me, I'd
	let them have it in any one of several ways.  Why?  Simple: if
	I did not do so, the rest of the students would immediately lose
	repsect for me.  They would have seen me as a soft weak WhiteBoy(tm) 
	and my ability to manage the class would go right out the window.
	To compound the importance of maintaining control was the fact that
	I taught shop classes where careless behavior could get someone
	killed or severely injured.  Therefore I busted a few heads in the
	interest of the greater "good" of preventing death or permanent
	catastrophic injury to my students and myself.  Sometimes a finger
	or two must be cut off to save the entire arm.  Mi capisce?

>(Now, one may argue that it is better to stand up to the mugger and stop
>his/her actions so that they do not continue this behavior.  I suppose if 
>you executed a 'citizen's arrest' and they went to jail, that might be true,
>but otherwise, I doubt you will change their behavior.  Problem is, I don't
>ever remember Jesus getting mugged, except by Pontius Pilot and his boys.)

	Well, first off, there are about 30 years of his life that are 
	essentially undocumented, save for vague rumors.  You do not know
	what happened to him then.  Maybe he DID get his ass whooped,
	maybe not.  At any rate, if what has been written about him is true, 
	then he had an "in" with the Big Guy(tm).  It was, essentially,
	easy for a man who had spoken to God (or at least *believed* he
	had) to run around preaching "faith" to the masses.  No faith was
	needed on his part as far as I can see because he "knew" what the
	truth was and so he could afford to be in a state of 24 hour a day
	grace, which in fact he was not (cf "get the fuck out of the temple,
	foul money lenders" etc).  This is a fundamental difference between
	what was supposedly Christ's situation and yours and mine.  You have
	your faith and he had certainty.  Me?  Dunno.

	Many of you Christians put far too much stock in words and writing, IMO.
	I do not think that placing faith in your own judgenent is contrary to
	"goodness".  God gave you brains so you might use them, IMO.  Turn the
	other cheek when it seems right and kick ass when it seems right.  I
	think even the most humble intelligence will know the difference.

>But I think the situation is entirely different if others are involved, whether
>it be your family, your wife/husband, girl/boyfriend, etc.  I may be willing
>to take a beating, but what about my wife?  There is a lot of Christian 
>teaching (this is from _my_ point of view, don't mean to inflict it on any
>of you out there) that says I am the head/provider/protector of my family.
>Then am I not appointed by God to act to protect her?  (Again, don't mean
>to promote a big religious thread here, just presenting my reasoning.)  

	Well, for a Mennonite Christian, you are Wrong-O.  Your are supposed to
	stand by and watch (or turn away) as muggers beat, rape and kill your
	wife and kids.  There is nothing further to discuss.  Yet they read
	from the same book that you do and believe in the same Jesus and God.
	Who's right?  Personally, I think the Mennonites are nuts, but I 
	honestly could not swear to it.  For all I know, they might be exactly
	right.  I have no evidence either way, save for my own nature; that
	voice that speaks to me in the subtle language of intuition; the one
	that has pulled my poor ass out of more trouble than I care to think
	about.  And until I am satisfied to the contrary, I will continue to
	live my life the best way I know how, using that which I have been
	given to navigate and judge with.  You can only do your best, no
	matter what that may be.  

>How
>about another case:  I'm driving kids involved in a youth outreach ministry
	[snip]
>to the door."  Well, hopefully you see where I'm coming from.  

	I think I do.  Seems to me you have answered your own questions.
	I see no conflict.
	
	-Andy V.