From: niepornt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Marc Nieporent)
Subject: Re: Death of America 3
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 07:22:29 GMT

In article <1gr1liINNdh1@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> an030@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Broward Horne) writes:
>In a previous article, nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson) says:
>>In article <1go0t1INNd2c@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> an030@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Broward Horne) writes:

>>>      Ah.  *my* comment.  You misinterpret.  I don't believe eliminating
>>>    the Federal government will fix the problem.  I believe it is TIME
>>>    to eliminate it regardless.  Patriotism != Federal Government.

>>   But this is an even *bigger* faith-based presumption.  No nontrivial
>>   sized modern society or economy has ever existed without a strong
>>   central government (which is what I presume you mean by "eliminate

>      I mean "eliminate the Federal government".  It's coming anyway.
>      I'd choose for it to be easy rather than hard.

>      I don't deny a central authority has a place, but look at Russia.
>      Look at ANY empire.  The feedback loop which used to work, was 
>      based on cultural homogeny.  Obviously, this ain't working anymore.

So, central authority "used to work," but doesn't anymore?

>>   the federal government".  please correct me if you really meant
>>   Honestly I don't know why the posters to this thread have suddenly
>>   become so apocalyptic.   I work in the computer business: my company
>>   (HP) and all those around me are downsizing. DEC, IBM, Apple,
>>   Compaq, Data General, etc etc have all announced massive layoffs.

>    Look, you JUSTIFY my statement about the Federal government with
>    your examples here.  

How?  And has Apple really announced massive layoffs?  I missed that one.

>    And, speaking for myself, I haven't "suddenly " become apocalyptic.     
>     I been watching the whole show since 1987, and I'm about a 95%
>    confidence level that the times I grew up in, ar going away forever.

Since way back then?  Wow.  A whole 5 years.

>    Here:

>    1987 - The greatest NYSE crash ever.

Doesn't seem to have been much of a crash at all, really.  Five years
later, the market is above where it was in 1987.

>    And since:

>       Berlin Wall.  Collapse of Russia.  Death camps in Bosnia.  Collapse
>       of Japanese Market.  Collapse of Italian market.  Desert Storm. 
>     Somalia.  Bejing.  A "recession" that defies understanding.  
>     Riots across the United States.  Riots in Japan.  Riots in Mexico.
>     Racist riots in Germany.  Riots in France and Ireland.  Belfast.
>     A government deficit of truly unbelievable size. 
>     The Islamic revival.  Mozambique.  Liberia.  Riots in Italy. 

If you pick out lots of bad things and list them out of context, you can
make anything sound bad.  Or, you could do the reverse.

Arab-Israeli peace talks.  End of the Cold War.  More democracies than
at any previous time in history.  Some successful United Nations actions
for the first time.

I mean, really.  Do you think any of the things you have listed are new?
Do you think the world is in worse shape than it was during the 1930s?
Or in more chaos than in the late 1960s?  And those are just from *this*
century.  Do you think the US is worse off than during the 1860s?

And why did you list "Berlin Wall?"  Is its collapse supposed to be a
metaphor for society, or are you confused?  I thought the taking down of
the Berlin Wall was a *good* thing.

And while Desert Storm wasn't exactly all Bush cracked it up to be, I
don't think it's a sign of armageddon, either.

>     Last night I read "The Great Reckoning" Ress-Mogg & Davidson.
>     It has confirmed several things I've figured out for myself.
>      Are you aware of just how atypical 1945 to 1992 was?  

All periods of time are atypical.

>      Is any of this getting through?
>      Hello!?

>>   any of Michael Cusamano's (MIT) research.    And learn to deal
>>   with it.   According to him there is likely to be massive un-
>>   employment among US programmers by the end of the decade. 
           
>>   I'm leaving for Tahiti in a few days.   But next year this time
>>   I and plenty of other programmers might end up with jobs where we
>>   have to ask "paper or plastic?" or "do you want fries with that?".
>>   But this is no different than steelworkers or TV assemblers who
>>   had to do the same thing in the past.   It's not the end of the
>>   world, or the US.  

>>>      I feel ill.  The entire upper echelon is so out-to-lunch, I just
>>>   can't believe it.  

>>   As long as they eat lunch at my McDonald's.

Just remember to McRecycle, as they call it.

-- 
David M. Nieporent   | Is it too early to start making predictions for 1993?
niepornt@phoenix.    | Probably, but that never stopped me before.
   princeton.edu     | ALE: Baltimore ALW: Chicago NLE: Montreal NLW: Atlanta
Baltimore Orioles 93 | AL MVP: Cal Ripken  AL Cy Young: Mike Mussina
Newsgroups: talk.politics.theory