HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cheryl@gallant.apple.com (Cheryl Lins)
Subject: Re: Apple IIGS being discontinued Dec 1992
Summary: Command line shells, you joke eh Boris?
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 18:24:50 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA

In article <9212162327.54@rmkhome.UUCP> rmk@rmkhome.UUCP (Rick Kelly) writes:
>
>When the Mac ships with a real command line shell, then maybe some people
>will look on it more favorably.

Ha-ha-ha!!! You make a funny, no?

Only those brought up on dinosaur derived systems and mentalities. And i'm so
very certain that Mom and Pop want to be programmers (even in the very limited
form of writing shell commands). But that's a discussion best suited for the
'famous flame wars' thread (GUI vs command line). And I have better things to
do than spend time trying to convince you otherwise or start a new flame war.


-- 
Cheryl Lins    Oberon Paladin and Princess-in-training   lins@apple.com
"We are the guardians of Freedom!" -- Ministry
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: cheryl@gallant.apple.com (Cheryl Lins)
Subject: Re: Apple IIGS being discontinued Dec 1992
Summary: Rick scores 10 points!
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 18:03:20 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA

In article <9212151730.20@rmkhome.UUCP> rmk@rmkhome.UUCP (Rick Kelly) writes:
>There seems to be two "rumors" floating around.
>
>1. PowerOpen, which will run on the PowerPC, will be a base OS consisting
>   of a mixture of AIX and A/UX, with a MacOS emulation and Multifinder
>   running on top.
>
>2. Taligent, which will run on the PowerPC, will be released without any
>   application compatibility to any other OS.
>
>Why would Apple base an OS on a processor chip that they no longer support
>in their product line?

If i were writing a _new_ OS, i'd agree that that would be a Dumb Idea. But
there happens to be millions of existing Macs out there with lots of software.
Now, do you want to know a _really_ Dumb Idea? Produce a new personal
computer running a brand new computer chip and a new OS and don't have any
application software to run on it at introduction (let alone thousands of
software titles). Apple engineers are not that dumb. Even Apple managers aren't
that dumb. :-)

Some of us do have a clue, even if the rest of the world hasn't figured that
out yet.


-- 
Cheryl Lins    Oberon Paladin and Princess-in-training   lins@apple.com
"We are the guardians of Freedom!" -- Ministry
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: What is so greate about the PDP 10?
From: rmk@rmkhome.UUCP (Rick Kelly)
Organization: The Man With Ten Cats
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 02:47:40 GMT
Reply-To: rmk@rmkhome.UUCP (Rick Kelly)

In article <11158347@zl2tnm.gen.nz> don@zl2tnm.gen.nz (Don Stokes) writes:

>The 11/70 is 17 years old for chrissakes.  Sure we get nostalgic about 'em.
>It reigned as the most powerful genuine pdp11 until the 11/84, and even then
>could outrun an 11/84 quite comfortably on real applications after you
>factored in the I/O; it could be argued that it wasn't completely obsoleted
>until 1990 with the release of the 11/94 (which *still* only has Unibus for
>I/O).  15 years is a bloody long time for one model, and there's still more
>of 'em chugging along just fine than any kind of -10.

>I'm not sure when DEC stopped supplying 11/70s, but I'd guess that it was
>after the 11/84 was released in '84/'85.  

The death of the 11/70, in the US, was an FCC ruling that deemed it to
noisy.

Of course, there is still the 11/94 and the MicroPDP-11.

>As for VAXes: it's been known for a while that the VAX is going to lose the
>MIPS/$ race, but current VAXes are in the bunch with the not-quite-bleeding-
>edge RISCs at this time even so.  DEC has learned a thing or two from the
>previous "upgrade" debacles; Alphas will run VMS just fine (or even unix if
>you really must 8-).  No-one's being left out in the cold like they were in
>the -10 to VAX "migration".

Exactly.

>I doubt it.  Apart from obvious losers, major architectures last a long
>time at DEC, eg the pdp11 at 22 years (and still going strong), the PDP-8
>at 25? 26? years, although now discontinued.  The -6/-10 lasted nearly 20
>years, and the VAX will still be kicking on its 20th birthday in 1997. 
>The Alpha is *not* an obvious loser.  It'll be around well into the next
>century, unless DEC goes down the tubes, in which case there won't be any
>Betans.  There's also no competition within DEC at this stage -- the VAX
>crew have been co-operating closely with the Alpha lot -- the NVAX+ chip
>in the VAX 7000 & 10000 is pin compatible with the 21064 for example.

A friend of mine, who works for DEC ( in "The Mill" and other sites ), tells
me that they used to move from 10's to Vaxs interdepartmently by pulling the
boards out of 10's and stuffing in a set of Vax boards.

-- 

Rick Kelly	rmk@rmkhome.UUCP	unixland!rmkhome!rmk	rmk@frog.UUCP
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: xexeo@hplaa02.cern.ch (Geraldo Xexeo)
Subject: Re: Jargon file FTP site?
Organization: CERN European Lab for Particle Physics
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 13:28:03 GMT

In article <Bz6FFo.Ax9.1@cs.cmu.edu>, tomault+@cs.cmu.edu (Thomas Galen Ault) writes:
> 
> Real Programmers Rule #13:
> 
> 	Real programmers do not use weenie operating systems like VMS.  They
> 	use an extensively-hacked version of UNIX they wrote themselves.
> 
> 

Wrong, real programmers use program in BINARY, using a monitor
program they did themselves and entered in the memory via
a hardward hack.

          Cheers,

                                Jerry

-- 
Geraldo Xexeo | xexeo@dxcern.cern.ch        | In Virtual Reality: MindWeb 
CERN-PPE Div  | xexeo@rio.cos.ufrj.br (*)   | (*) after Dec. 22
1211 Geneva 23| bt268@cleveland.freenet.edu | I am going back to Brazil !!
Switzerland   | gxexeo@cernvm.bitnet        | "...Rio eu gosto de voce..."
Xref: sparky alt.folklore.computers:18057 alt.religion.kibology:5463 alt.folklore.urban:31547
From: daniel@mertwig.uucp (Daniel Drucker)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.religion.kibology,alt.folklore.urban
Subject: Re: Proper pronounciation of 'Kibo'
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 16:05:47 EST
Reply-To: daniel%mertwig@uunet.uu.net  (Daniel Drucker)
Organization: Abnormalities of Reality

Kibo, do you grep for kibo uuencoded?


--
Daniel Drucker        N2SXX       Coconut seashells whispering to me
daniel%mertwig@uunet.uu.net         "Forever, forever, my Coda..."
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: xexeo@hplaa02.cern.ch (Geraldo Xexeo)
Subject: About (Re:) and threads
Organization: CERN European Lab for Particle Physics
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 13:32:07 GMT

Why alt.folklore.computers threads looks to stay longer
(even after the subject has changed 3 or 4 times) than
in any other group in the net?

Maybe we need just one:

Re: Press POST not FOLLOWUP

                 Jerry           

                                

-- 
Geraldo Xexeo | xexeo@dxcern.cern.ch        | In Virtual Reality: MindWeb 
CERN-PPE Div  | xexeo@rio.cos.ufrj.br (*)   | (*) after Dec. 22
1211 Geneva 23| bt268@cleveland.freenet.edu | I am going back to Brazil !!
Switzerland   | gxexeo@cernvm.bitnet        | "...Rio eu gosto de voce..."
From: J.Hallett@ecs.soton.ac.uk (Jon. Hallett)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: ---- E L I T E ----
Date: 16 Dec 92 10:35:23 GMT
Organization: Southampton University Computer Science
In-reply-to: mcastro@rediris.es's message of 8 Dec 92 02:00:21 GMT

In article <1992Dec8.010021.80@rediris.es> mcastro@rediris.es writes:

>Do you remember Elite?,No, I don't mean the PC version, I mean the game
>you used to play in things like C64 et al. It was great!. I become 

	   ------ 	E L I T E  ------

>playing in a C64, but dont'n know if that was the *real* end. 
>Is there in the net any other ELITE commander ?

RIGHT ON COMMANDER!  And I still have the badge (one of the nice
enamel ones) from the competition.  I became Elite on a combination of
the Electron and the BBC (Tape!)  versions.  IMHO, the Beeb disk
version was the classic, but I never had a Beeb with a drive.  I did
have the analogue joysticks though---perfect for playing Elite.

Actually, I seem to remember that I spent 1985 playing Elite.  Ho hum.
From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: What is so greate about the PDP 10?
Keywords: PDP 10, gods gift to hackers, TOPS, ITS
Date: 12 Dec 92 20:00:51 GMT
Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Organization: Columbia University

In article <1ga8q4INNftm@terminator.rs.itd.umich.edu> sarr@sinshan.citi.umich.edu (Sarr J. Blumson) writes:
>In article <1992Dec11.041441.21535@u.washington.edu> fetrow@pike.u.washington.edu (David Fetrow) writes:
>>In article <1992Dec10.171417.18174@csrd.uiuc.edu> j-grout@uiuc.edu writes:
>>>
>>>What killed off the PDP-10 architecture?
>>>
>
>Since nobody else has said this I will and will endure the flanes.  In
>the early 80s DEC had 3 choices:
>
>1) kill the 10/20
>
>2) kill the VAX
>
>3) Continue to develop and market both, acknowledging that they were
>competing for exactly the same customers; that every sale of one was a
>lost sale for the other.

But this is the problem of "all your eggs in one basket" since there were plans
to make the TT-10 and the Jupiter, and all in-between.  Moreover, the plan
to make the VAX largely turns its back on a sizeable software investment in
the -10/20 stuff.  So, what do you tell the stockholders:

We want to market this new machine that largely overlaps our existing product.
Moreover, we'll have to write new software mostly from the ground up, yet
this software will not be distinctively different from where we are today with
the existing software for the existing machine.  And as the design for both
the existing machine and the new design migrate upward and downware, they
will both find applications in the same market and will likely be a duplication
of effort, redundant products, etc.

In fact what DEC always does, is not tell the tale in the simplistic way
you presented the choices.  They simply lied about how much better the VAX
would be, and proceeded to backstab the -10/20 the same way the -11 did in 
the PDP-8.

I find it gratifying in recent years to find many of the -11 supporters seeing
their favorite models disappearing, such as the 11/70, etc., as they see the
-11 relegated to an also-ran product, destined to be scrapped entirely shortly.
In fact, I find it *more* gratifying to see the VAX being edged out in much the
same way as the Alpha takes over.

The point is that DEC often uses "shoot-yourself-in-the-foot" as part of its
marketing process, as the short-term goals and hidden agendas of individuals
guide the marketing strategy instead of someone high up enough to guide the
company's overall best interests, etc.  (The DEC pyramid management and
middle-management conspiracy has been discussed elsewhere, etc.)

Will I come back here in 6 years to hear about how the Alphans are being
edged out of the company as the Betans take over?

cj "New often does not mean better" l
From: daniel@mertwig.uucp (Daniel Drucker)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: PI
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 17:18:34 EST
Reply-To: daniel%mertwig@uunet.uu.net  (Daniel Drucker)
Organization: Abnormalities of Reality

valdis@black-ice.cc.vt.edu (Valdis Kletnieks) writes:

> In article <1992Dec15.134732.3739@piccolo.cit.cornell.edu> smr2@cornell.edu (
> >Daniel Drucker (daniel@mertwig.uucp) writes:
> >>A while back people were asking for the 50000 digits of pi; if anyone is 
> >>still looking for it, please mail me with a subject of "send pi".
> >
> >>If I get more than 15 requests in the first day, I will post it.
> >
> >For THE 50000 digits of pi? Since when is pi finite?   :-)
> 
> Well, if you're enough of a wizard, you can declare 'pi' to have
> as many digits as you want. ;)
> 
> Personally, I'm amazed that our buddy Daniel was able to write a
> program that was able to compute a 50,000 digit result, and didn't
> clue in that 'pi' is an irrational number.
                                              :-)
Actually, the program I wrote got as far as 1048577 digits before dying.
I just didn't think it would be a good idea to start mailing people millions
of digits.

--
Daniel Drucker        N2SXX       Coconut seashells whispering to me
daniel%mertwig@uunet.uu.net         "Forever, forever, my Coda..."
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.religion.kibology,alt.folklore.urban,alt.buddha.short.fat.guy
From: jecoleb@eos.ncsu.edu (have clue, will travel)
Subject: Re: Proper pronunciation of 'Kibo' IN BED
Keywords: Kibo-nature, slack
Reply-To: jecoleb@eos.ncsu.edu
Organization: The Ghost Of Christmas Past Society
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 05:24:45 GMT


pechever@sal-sun24.usc.edu (The Heckler) writes:
>In article <#6h22rc@rpi.edu> kasprj@rpi.edu writes:
>>In article <Bz16F0.HMD@world.std.com>, kibo@world.std.com (James "Kibo" Parry)
>>writes:

>> And I *am* a bunch of grapes!
>[Kibo-Man song mercifully deleted] 
 

>I know the correct tune to sing this to.
>Does this mean I have the Kibo-nature?

Actually, it means that you'll be one of the first week's guests on
David Letterman's new show (once he moves over to CBS).

Musical guest slot in the last 10 minutes, preceded by interviews with Tom
Snyder, Bruce Becker and the world's fastest bank teller.


			---jeff "damn close guess, though" c., ncsu.

--
     jecoleb@eos.ncsu.edu    \\---//  have clue, will travel.
       ---------------------------------------------------
     It's time to see the world / It's time to kiss the girl
              It's time to cross the wild meridian
  Grab your bag and take a chance / Time to learn a Cajun dance
             Kid, you're gonna see the morning sun... 
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: dougmc@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Doug McLaren)
Subject: Re: Famous flame wars, examples please?
Organization: Doug's House of Disco
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 02:48:09 GMT
X-Posted-From: sylvester.cc.utexas.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1992Dec3.093542.24178@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de> ig25@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de (Koenig) writes:
>On flamewars of the present...  one huge flamefest at the moment is out
>on alt.irc, on the use or misuse of bots (IRC automatons).  Accusations
>of cluelessness are flying particularly low in this one.

Never expected to hear IRC mentioned on a.f.c ... ddials, perhaps, but
not IRC.  I'm not sure if this is a good thing or not ... probably not. :)

Famous flame war?  How about the one that used to pop up on alt.binaries.
pictures.erotica (formerly alt.sex.pictures)  (it may still -- I grew tired
of it after a while ...)

  Should they split into alt.sex.pictures.male and female?
  ... alt.sex.pictures.straight or gay ?
  ... etc.

Of course, somebody would start gay bashing, and all hell would break loose.
Then in a month or so, it would die down.

A month or two passes, and some newbie mentions his great idea ... "Let's split
this newsgroup into .male and .female ..."

You get the idea ...

-- 
----------------------- \  Zippy says:
Doug McLaren,            \  I've got an IDEA!! Why don't I STARE at you so
DemoN on IRC              \  HARD, you forget your SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER!!
dougmc@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu  \
-------------------------- /
From: bmarcum@world.std.com (Bill Marcum)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Putting the prompt into the path
Date: 21 Dec 92 00:16:50 GMT
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA

It seems like just a logical extension of the CP/M prompt, which shows the
current default drive (CP/M doesn't have subdirectories).
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: kodak@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Jason 'KodaK' Balicki)
Subject: Fools who don't log out  was: Re: PIRATE BBS?
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 06:44:31 GMT

In article <XeRmVB4w165w@bluemoon.use.com> cmcurtin@bluemoon.use.com (Matthew Curtin) writes:
>Or a fool who left his workstation logged in and walked away?...

Along the same lines:

I'm a TA for a COBOL (NO ONE SAY ANYTHING! :) class that caters mostly
to management students.  One day a young woman came to my office hours
in need of assistance.  The problem she had was one of "those" problems,
she somehow made her program in varient record format when it should
have been in fixed record format.  Explaining how to fix this to a
non CS person goes to impossible as you aproach the end of the day, so
I decided to log on and fix it for her.

"X allready logged on." the screen said.

I replied, "You're allready logged on."

"What does that mean?" she replies.

"You're didn't log off, go to where you were last and log off."

"But I couldn't get on last time I tried."

"Where were you the last time you were able to get on?"

"I don't remember."

I was tempted to tell her, "Youre SOL then," but I didn't.  (A program
was due later that day, it's not my fault they pull last minute deals.)

I told her to go to PUCC's office (down two filghts of stairs, 5 minutes
for directions, she had to go there to get her account.) and ask them
to fix it.

> __________________________________________________________________________
>| C. Matthew Curtin             ! "But I am the enlightened one, they are  |
>| P.O. Box 27081                ! but mere sheep, following each other in  |
>| Columbus, OH 43227-0081       ! the name of compatibility." -B. Heineman |
>| 614/365-3272 (voice mail)     !              Apple II Forever!           |
>|_cmcurtin@bluemoon.use.com_____!_____________GNO_your_AppleIIGS!__________|


--Jason Balicki
kodak@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.sys.pdp8
From: tyzuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Tyzuk William N)
Subject: Re: The NOVA and the PDP-11 (Was Re: WANTED: PDP-10 or 11)
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 21:22:58 GMT

zrepachol@cc.curtin.edu.au writes:

>In article <1992Dec13.190931.18700@iecc.cambridge.ma.us>, johnl@iecc.cambridge.ma.us (John R. Levine) writes:
>> Actually, there was a sensible reason that DEC used small cards.  The
>> PDP-6 (the machine that the PDP-10 was almost as good as) used great big
>> cards with lots of pins per connector.  Unfortunately, the connectors
>> didn't work very well.  A standard diagnostic technique when a PDP-6 was
>> flaking was to open the back and hit all the modules with a rubber mallet.
>> For that among other reasons the PDP-6 was a marketing failure and they
>> only built 20 of them.
>> 

>Bzzzt. You are thinking of the CDC6x00 and Cybers. The prob with the 6's cards
>was that they where SOLDERED in, some on BOTH sides...

Lessee now... I think it was a CDC1700 mini that had a 256k word (??)
drum (actually a disk but they called it a drum) which came with a plastic
hammer and maintenance manual which prescribed tapping the cards with
the hammer to cure intermittant faults!  This was an actual recommended and
authorized maintenance procedure!  Sigh.... the good ol' days :-)  NOT.
From: azog@spatula.rent.com (Billy D'Augustine)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: PDP-11: A Physical Threat :)
Keywords: Hit'n'Run
Date: 15 Dec 92 13:51:26 GMT
Organization: A kitchen utensil somewhere in central New Jersey

In article <1992Dec14.205112.3488@cc.tut.fi> oh3mqu@ee.tut.fi (Saastamoinen Ari) writes:
>
>
>Greetings, a.f.c people!
>
>  This is the first article I have ever written to a.f.c, but I thought since there
>was some discussion (it was some time ago) on computers killing people, what the heck.
>One of my friends was just leaving the local University, and when he stepped out to
>the hall he was almost overrun by a PDP-11. The local admins were transporting the machine to an another room. :) You can imagine my friends surprise when the vast bulk of the
>machine was rolling (noisily) towards him. Try to imagine the impression on his face :)

Perhaps you should purchase a clue from your local retailer, and
fix your line length. Even tho the article text is right above me, I
have no want to read it when the lines are as fucked up like this.

-- 
Billy D'Augustine azog@spatula.rent.com

Gentlemen, shall we manufacture salsa, or oven mitts?
From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Famous flame wars, examples please?
Date: 12 Dec 92 20:03:39 GMT
Reply-To: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
Organization: Columbia University

In article <Bz3zJI.B0o@sci.kun.nl> hansm@cs.kun.nl (Hans Mulder) writes:
>
>It started much earlier, as a flame war, but in 300 B.C. someone pulled the
>plug on the Usenet link between Greece and Turkey, hoping that that would
>stop the flames coming in.  It didn't work out quite the way he expected.

Who was in tthe Backbone Cabal then?

cjl
From: werner@cs.utexas.edu (Werner Uhrig)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: misc/misc/EMOTICON.TXT exists (was Re: GUINEA PIG update -- FTP site available)
Followup-To: poster
Date: 12 Dec 1992 00:11:41 -0600
Organization: Confused Scientists Dept, University of Texas at Austin
NNTP-Posting-Host: dimebox.cs.utexas.edu

||Good news for those of you who are interested in these results: they're now 
||available via anonymous ftp. werner@rascal.ics.utexas.edu writes:
||	this file is now FTPable from RASCAL by Anonymous as
||			misc/EMOTICON.PS
||			misc/EMOTICON.TXT
|
>location seems to be misc/misc/EMOTICON.PS.  (I didn't find EMOTICON.TXT)

	misc/misc is correct (my fault) and the announcement about the
	naming of the files made it out faster than the second file arrived
	at my machine .... folks, your are too fast!  There is more to life
	than USEnet !!!  :-))

rascal% cd ~ftp/misc/misc
/usr2/ftp/misc/misc
rascal% ll EMOTICON.*
 296 -rw-r--r--  1 werner     294257 Dec  9 17:57 EMOTICON.PS
  38 -rw-r--r--  1 werner      38890 Dec  9 19:10 EMOTICON.TXT


PS: what was the idea, cross-posting to all those weird newsgroups anyway?!?
	(and note that I took out all but alt.folklore.computers, and directed
	 Fup's to me ONLY - and I WILL IGNORE any and all .. ;-)
-- 
  werner@cs.utexas.edu |  ..!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!werner | werner@UTXVM.bitnet

              "Free Advice and Opinions -- Refunds Available"
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: kps@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Karthik P Sheka)
Subject: Re: PI
Reply-To: kps@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu (Karthik P Sheka)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 13:43:00 GMT

In article <1992Dec20.022736.22191@noose.ecn.purdue.edu> gfritz@tesla.ecn.purdue.edu (Geoffrey M Fritz) writes:
>Let Pi = 3.14159265359 (so sayeth my HP28s [please, no booing for my not
>                        having upgraded to the 48sx yet])
>       
>>>>>Back to folklore - what's everybody's favorite fast-converging
>>>>>series expansion for 'pi'?
>>>>
>>>>Simple and fast: 22/7
>
>3.14285714286 = Pi - 0.00126448927
>
>>> How 'bout this one:    
>>>                      4_________
>>>                     \/ 2143/22
>
>3.14159265258 = Pi + 0.00000000101
>
>>For 8 digit calculators especially, try:
>>
>>          16__________
>>          \/ 90032221
>>
>>With even the simplest calculator you can punch in 90032221, filling the 
>>display, and hit square root four times, and get pi, accurate to +11 places 
>>after the decimal.
>
>3.14159265938 = Pi - 0.00000000034
>
>
>So far, this last one is the winner.  Are there any *more* accurate than this?
>Better yet, any similar computations out there for "e"?

Well, if you allow recursion, here is one that is usually pretty accurate:

            2______
      Pi = \/(Pi)^2



Karthik Sheka              | It's not an optical illusion.  It just looks like
kps@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu |    one.
karthik@cs.columbia.edu    | By "recursion" I mean "defined by recursion".
Xref: sparky alt.folklore.computers:17874 news.admin.misc:723