From: davidg@aegis.or.jp (Dave McLane)
Newsgroups: alt.bbs
Subject: Re: TBBS/TDBS/UNIX - Price of a BBS
Date: 7 Sep 92 22:35:47 GMT
Organization: Aegis Society, Kyoto Japan

rjus@uonline.com (ren_just) writes:

>As the other thread is getting a bit long between myself, Larry Snyder and
>others.  Larry Snyder is proposing that TBBS is too expensive of a solution
>for a BBS and suggests that UNIX is both cheaper and provides a better
>solution.  At least I believe that is what he is trying to say in summary (Larry
>please interject).

>I am proposing for the majority of BBS uses, most people don't need to use
>Lotus, WordPerfect and connect to nets and so forth.

I will agree with you if you meant *dial-in* people as I have some
of those programs online and nobody uses them but me. However, it's
been very useful to have DOS under UNIX as it means I ran run
utilities that were written for DOS but have not UNIX equivalent. 

And,  after having to have 2 machines for many years, I find it a lot
more convient to be able to so the administrative tasks involved
while users are using the system for other things. 

>Larry, could you please provide a price for a UNIX system to do the following:
> 
>Run up to 16 users
>Allow the use of a database system of some sort
>Be inexpensive to maintain
>Be inexpensive to set-up
>Be inexpensive to upgrade

How inexpensive do you mean: gross, or net? What I mean is, given
a certain set of functions, you are going to attract more users than
without them. Thus, >>>DEPENDING ON YOUR LOCAL SITUATION<<<, what
you provide can give you a different net cost. 

This assumes of course that your users are contributing to the cost
of the system: if not, then I guess I'm in the wrong ballpark as I
don't have the kind of money we are talking about. Consider, if you
would just the cost of 16 dialin lines in Japan: ~$9,200.

>Using TBBS/TDBS which would meet the above criteria, the software costs
>would be as follows:

>DOS -            $ 49.95
>TBBS 16 user -    895.00
>TDBS 16 user -    995.00
>QEMM 386           59.95
>                 -------
>                 1999.99
>                 =======

Hmmm, this is the first time I've seen the actual cost of TBBS/TDBS.
My system includes the following:

  ISC UNIX (unlimited users)               |
  Programmers Development (compilers)      |
  VPIX (DOS emulation)                     | - - - - - $2,313
  Text Processing Workbench (nroff, troff) |

  Access to 300MB+ of source code for 
  newsreaders, mailers, database managers
  utilities, games, etc.,etc. - - - - - - - - - - - - -     0

  Waffle (BBS-like user interface) - - - - - - - - - - $  120
                                                       ------
                                                       $2,433
                                                       ======

>The above are list prices and would be less on the streets.  Larry please
>provide a price of what UNIX would cost for the OS and the database manager.
>I think it will give the folks reading this a true price comparison.

IMHO this comparison would be less than meaningful. If *all* you
need to run is the functions TBBS/TDBS provides, then it may be well
to your advantage. But if your situation requires that you be able
to provide all that can be done under a UNIX system + whatever you
can hang on it, I think this is another story. 

Background for this assertion (stop here if you want):

About three or four years ago when I was investigating how to
upgrade Aegis, I had a look at things like TBBS, The Major BBS, etc.
The looked attractive and easier to set up than a UNIX system (about
which I knew next to nothing). I paid a few hundred dollars and got
Major BBS + libraries for compiling new functions but within a few
weeks I found that it wouldn't really do what needed to be done in
my situation: Japanese plus some special functions Aegis members had
gotten used to with previous 5-year old system.

I bit the UNIX bullet (never dreaming that it would be so bloody
hard!) and I'm glad I did as Aegis is open-ended. The problem isn't
what will run with it and what won't but which of the hundreds of
things I add to the system: there's more to add than I have time for.

So now when I see QEMM listed, I shudder involuntarily. Only as a
joke (but perhaps not so far off the mark), I wonder what the total
sum of hours X minimum wage have been spent in trying to fit what
needs to be run into 640K? In case you don't know, UNIX has no
practical limit on how much stuff you can cram into memory. If it
gets too full, it swaps out to disk and it's time to buy more RAM
but never do I have to spend any time trying to cut things down to
size so they will fit into the 640K shoebox. 

So does UNIX cost more than TBBS/TDBS?  Sure, it does. 

Do you get more with UNIX + PDS sources? Sure you do.

Are local users willing to support the additional cost? Only you
and they can decide that.

Would I personally support the addtional cost? Sure, I would. I'd
flip burgers at MacDonald's just to be able to compile stuff in C
while people are online, while my administrative daemons are doing
the paperwork, while .... you name it, you got it :-)

The last is clearly my decision, if you like running a system which
requires that you have another system around to maintain it, I can
understand that. But I think it's slick to be able to do it all on
one machine and/or a network of machines. 

In case you haven't noticed I *enjoy* using UNIX! If you *enjoy*
running TBBS/TDBS, do so. If you *enjoy* running The Major BBS, do
so. If you *enjoy* running xxxxx, do so! 

Sorry about that, something comes over me and takes me away <sigh>.

Dave

--
Dave McLane 
JUNET: davidg@aegis.or.jp (ONLY within Japan: post otherwise)
Nagaokakyoshi, Kyoto Japan Tel: +81-75-951-1168 Fax: +81-75-957-1087
Newsgroups: alt.bbs