HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mlinksva@nyx.cs.du.edu (Michael Linksvayer)
Subject: Re: Anarchy in Somalia
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 05:34:20 GMT

In article <1jn369$kje@agate.berkeley.edu> ausman@ocf.berkeley.edu (James Ausman) writes:
>>Philosophy is about man in the real world.  You can talk about utopia
>>if you want but it isn't a philosophical discussion.
>>
>I am curious.  Who is supposed to talk about utopia then if not philosiphers?

Philosophists.
--
Mike Linksvayer   mlinksva@nyx.cs.du.edu   "One two stupid"
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy
From: sals@florimel.uchicago.edu (red-head fancier)
Subject: Re: Anarchy
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 01:08:30 GMT

In article <DDFr-250193151427@law-mac-28.uchicago.edu>  
DDFr@Midway.UChicago.Edu (David Friedman) writes:
> In article <1993Jan23.023237.8646@midway.uchicago.edu>,
> sals@florimel.uchicago.edu (red-head fancier) wrote:
> Friedman's book, while not all hand-waving, isn't the best source of
> information. Friedman cowrote a book on Medevial Iceland which is  
supposed
> to be good, but for more specific and modern arguments Randy Barnett  
makes
> very good arguments. 
> 
> 1. I have not cowritten a book on Medieval Iceland; I have a chapter on  
the
> subject in The Machinery of Freedom and published an article on it long  
ago
> in the Journal of Legal Studies.
> 
My apologies, a temporary confusion on my part about authors.The book I  
had in mind was "Bloodtaking and Peacemaking: Feud, Law, and Society in  
Saga Iceland" by William Miller. By Barnett I was referring specifically  
to "Pursuing Justice in a Free Society " from Criminal Justice Ethics  
1985-6.
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy
Subject: Re: Anarchy in Somalia
From: tumidity@netlink.cts.com (Joel Garry)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 15:56:31 PST
Organization: NetLink Online Communications, San Diego CA

merritt@macro.bu.edu (Sean Merritt) writes:
> system. Well the results are in Communism does not work! Capitalism
> does work! They is no reason why Anarchism and capitalism are mutually
> exclusive.
> 

Well, I can't accept that capitalism does work.  The post-WWII boom is an 
exception that is now ending.  Ask your granparents what a real 
depression is.  Now go downtown and ask a homeless person what he thinks 
of capitalism.  The purer the capitalism, the wider the economic boom and 
bust cycle, and the cycle can become infinitely long.  There is no reason 
capitalism and Anarchism are mutually exclusive - and they both cannot 
work over a period of time.  By the way, do you know where I can get a 
job when my contract ends?

--                    
INTERNET:  tumidity@netlink.cts.com (Joel Garry)
UUCP:   ...!ryptyde!netlink!tumidity
NetLink Online Communications * Public Access in San Diego, CA (619) 453-1115
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy,talk.politics.guns
From: ataylor@nmsu.edu (Nosy)
Subject: Ideality vs. Reality (Was: Anarchy in Somalia)
Organization: NMSU Computer Science
	<1993Jan21.015406.23461@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu>
	<1993Jan21.154720.4900@henson.cc.wwu.edu>
	<1993Jan21.203358.4655@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 20:46:35 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.203358.4655@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu> corleyj@helium.gas.uug.arizona.edu (Jason D Corley ) writes:

<So?  What's wrong with people changing?  That's the goal of anarchism--
<changing the world.  Changing humanity.

	Text such as this, in the late 20th Century, makes me nervous.
	Either the writer has utterly no knowledge of the last, oh,
	200+ years or is yet another "coercive utopian".

	In either case, the author is treading not towards freedom,
	but towards totalitarionism.

<If you want realism, though, I admit, you'll have to try somewhere else.

	Huh. These aren't just word games, folks, they are ideas
	with consequences.

	The absurd notion that humans are infinitely plastic and can be
	"molded for their own good" into some sort of "New Human"
	should, by now, be completely discredited. 

	That it has not is an indictment of, among other things,
	modern "education".
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy
From: sals@florimel.uchicago.edu (red-head fancier)
Subject: Re: What is Anarchism
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 02:20:24 GMT

In article <1993Jan22.125059.6851@spider.co.uk> ian@spider.co.uk (Ian  
Heavens) writes:
 
> How does anarchocapitalism differ from unregulated capitalism (we've  
seen
> the ghastly effects of that)?
It depends what you mean by unregulated capitalism,( which incidently we  
have not seen, the ghastly effects we've seen are from regulated  
capitalism). Totally and completely unregulated capitalism is the same  
thing as anarchocapitalism, however, what most people mean by unregulated  
capitalism is capitalism in which government interfenece is limited only  
to defense and maybe police services.
Xref: sparky alt.society.anarchy:1178 talk.politics.guns:27093
From: gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy,talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Anarchy in Somalia
Date: 24 Jan 93 14:52:07 GMT
Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman)
Organization: Destructive Testing Systems

Pardon me for barging in, but I'd like to address this.

In article <1993Jan20.235312.18675@cbnews.cb.att.com> lvc@cbnews.cb.att.com (Larry Cipriani) writes:
>
>That these acts are done even under the threat of punishment tells me
>that it would be a lot worse if there was no punishement.
>
>That is why people value government, warts and all.

The prudent, the careful, the farsighted, and, yes, the coward are
*deterred* by the threat of punishment. But the Bold and the Thoughtless
(good name for a soap opera) are not deterred by the threat of punishment.
Your typical criminal gives little thought to the possibility that he
will be caught. He has supreme confidence in his own abilities. The prudent 
citizen, one of the classes who would be deterred by threats, would never 
commit the crime in the first place. So that leaves only the cowards to
be deterred by threat of government sanction, but the coward can be more
effectively deterred by the threat of immediate and permanent sanction
at the hands of his intended victim, *if* that victim wasn't deterred
by threat of government sanction from defending himself and his property.

Since government by definition is a *reactive* force, it is rarely in
a position to stop a crime in progress. It can only come in and attempt
to clean up after the fact. The potential victim, however, is always
in a position to respond to a crime in progress, *provided* he is allowed
the means to do so, *and* is free from fear of sanctions for any such
actions. Since government's only practical effect is to deter action
by upright people, it is a hinderance to the security of the individual.

Gary

-- 
Gary Coffman KE4ZV          |    You make it,     | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary
Destructive Testing Systems |    we break it.     | uunet!rsiatl!ke4zv!gary
534 Shannon Way             |    Guaranteed!      | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary      
Lawrenceville, GA 30244     |                     | 
Xref: sparky alt.society.anarchy:1127 alt.society.revolution:589 alt.activism:21128
From: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy,alt.society.revolution,alt.activism
Subject: anarchist summer school, May 1993, Glasgow, Scotland
Date: 21 Jan 93 14:54:46 GMT
Followup-To: alt.society.anarchy
Organization: Glasgow University Computing Science Dept.

ANARCHIST SUMMER SCHOOL 93
==========================

Govanhill Neighbourhood Centre, southside of Glasgow, Scotland

Saturday May 29th / Sunday 30th 1993

A weekend of discussion, debate and workshops rounded off by Glasgow
hospitality - socials and socialising.  Celebrate 100 years of anarchist
agitation in Glasgow by joining in the fun.

Themes include:

	Popular Culture
	Working Class Resistance
	Scotland and Nationhood
	Stirner and Anarchist Philosophy
	Women and Revolution
	Barbarism: a 'New World Order'?
	Crime and the Law
	Resurrecting a History of Anarchism
	Video events/films
	Housing and Direct Action

Reply to Robert Lynn, 151 Gallowgate, Glasgow G1 5AX, tel. 041 552 0622.
Telephone enquiries to 0389 76086 or 041 427 6398.

160 places each day.  Friday night rendezvous in central location, Saturday
night social with live music, Sunday night social, walks and other means of
escape.  Final Whitsun Monday 31st morning session.

Event organised by Summer School group drawn from Glasgow Class War,
Counter Information, Free University Network, Libertarian Social Committee
and individual anarchists and libertarian socialists.

There's an application form which asks:

- name?
- address?
- telephone?
- do you require the organisers to arrange accommodation for you?
- do you require a creche/special childcare arrangements?
- do you have any specific dietary requirements?
- do you require or can you offer a lift?
- do you want to be picked up if arriving by public transport?
- which workshops would you like to attend?
- can you offer to lead a workshop and if so on what and with what space
  or resource requirements?
- and a donation would be appreciated, make any cheques payable to
  "1993 Anarchist Summer School"

-- 
--  Jack Campin    room G092, Computing Science Department, Glasgow University,
17 Lilybank Gardens, Glasgow G12 8RZ, Scotland   TEL: 041 339 8855 x6854 (work)
INTERNET: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk or via nsfnet-relay.ac.uk    FAX: 041 330 4913
BANG!net: via mcsun and uknet     BITNET: via UKACRL    UUCP: jack@glasgow.uucp
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy
From: gmw0622@venus.tamu.edu (Mr. Grinch)
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy
Subject: Re: Looking for a book
Date: 23 Jan 1993 12:08 CST
Organization: GrinchCo
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: venus.tamu.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

In article <6m2sXB7w165w@netlink.cts.com>, tumidity@netlink.cts.com (Joel Garry) writes...
:mapam@csv.warwick.ac.uk (Mr R A Khwaja) writes:
: 
>> 
:> I'm looking for a book called "The Anarchist's Handbook.
:> It was about making bombs from everyday items and practical advice
:> on being an urban terrorist, that sort of thing.
:> I'd be very grateful for help in locating a copy.
:> The only copy I ever saw was photocopied from someone else.
: 
:It's the Anarchists Cookbook.  Be careful, some of the information is 
:>wrong and you could put out your eye.
: 
>--                    

_Handbook_ and _Cookbook_ are two different books.  I expect they're both
pieces of crap,  but if one is amused by that sort of thing both are
available from Paladin Press,  among other places (they advertise in
most gun-oriented mags).


Helpful St. Grinch
From: ian@spider.co.uk (Ian Heavens)
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy
Subject: Re: Der Einzige und sein Eigentum
Date: 27 Jan 93 10:39:51 GMT
Organization: Spider Systems Limited, Edinburgh, UK

In article <1jt8ibINNqrs@stimpy.css.itd.umich.edu> pauls@css.itd.umich.edu (Paul Southworth) writes:
>In article <C1BH4F.Ivr@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin) writes:
>>
>>Which edition/translation is this?
>
>Following is the translator's note for this edition.  I do not know
>if there is an edition number, and I have found no date on it.
>
>Translator's Preface
>(TO THE ENGLISH EDITIONS)
>   
>   If the style of this book is found unattractive, it will show that I 
>have done my work ill and not represented the author truly; but, if it 
>is found odd, I beg that I may not bear all the blame. I have simply 
>tried to reproduce the author's own mixture of colloquialisms and 
>technicalities, and his preference for the precise expression of his 
>thought rather than the word conventionally expected.

This looks like the Libertarian Press edition, 1963 (my copy was reprinted by 
Freedom Press).

What others exist?

ian

---
	 Ian Heavens			ian@spider.co.uk                 
 	 Spider Software
 	 Spider Park, Stanwell Street		
	 Edinburgh, EH6 5NG, Scotland	+44 31 555 5166 (Ext 4347)
--
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy
From: mlinksva@nyx.cs.du.edu (Michael Linksvayer)
Subject: Re: Anarchy in Somalia
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 10:20:33 GMT

In article <1993Jan24.180242.6299@spider.co.uk> ian@spider.co.uk (Ian Heavens) writes:
>People are starving in Moscow, because there is bread, but they cannot
>afford to buy it.
>
>Not much of a choice, incompetent state socialism or the unregulated free
>market.  The latter is a license to exploit others, as is being shown now, rather
>than 'liberty'. 

I hate to point out the obvious, but:

Russia is hardly an unregulated free market

	and

Russia hasn't even been a non-command economy for long. I don't
expect miracles.
--
Mike Linksvayer   mlinksva@nyx.cs.du.edu   "I like Orinda"
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy,talk.politics.guns
From: mlinksva@nyx.cs.du.edu (Michael Linksvayer)
Subject: Re: Anarchy in Somalia
Followup-To: alt.society.anarchy
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 05:59:08 GMT

[Note Followup-To:]

In article <1993Jan21.203358.4655@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu> corleyj@helium.gas.uug.arizona.edu (Jason D Corley ) writes:
>In article <1993Jan21.154720.4900@henson.cc.wwu.edu> n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:
>>corleyj@helium.gas.uug.arizona.edu (Jason D Corley ) writes:
>>>Sorry.  I thought philosophy was talking about what _ought_ to be, not
>>>what _is_ or _will be_.  Anarchy _ought_ to work.  There _ought_ be no
>>>murder.  People _ought_ to be able to get along without government.

Ought schmought. Ought people have wings? Who cares, we can build
airplanes. Anarchism is not about whining about what 'ought' to
work, but creating voluntaristic arrangements that *do* work.

>>	As many proponants of anarchy have admitted that it is an
>>impossible state to achieve, or one that would only last the 5 seconds
>>it takes for some genius to think of dominating others, it is a cartoon-
>>only concept.   Some have gone so far as to say it _would_ work, if only
>>humanity could change, if only nobody would think of that.

Well, this anarchist totally disavows any such statements. 

>So?  What's wrong with people changing?  That's the goal of anarchism--
>changing the world.  Changing humanity.
>If you want realism, though, I admit, you'll have to try somewhere else.

If I wanted fantasy I would go read alt.sex.stories or
something. Changing humanity is probably impossible. Changing
the incentives humans face is very doable.

>>	Interjecting anarchy into a discussion of what is a good society
>>to have (vs democracy, free market, communism, or all the other real-life
>>competitors), is exactly analogous to, during a discussion of which car 
>>is the best buy, interjecting the comment that a giant flying bird would be 
>>an even better vehicle than a car.

Nope, anarchy is just another model (pun intended?). A more
sophisticated model, with features that are hard for Joe Chevy
to grasp. But it drives, does it ever. It almost flies. :)

>No, not if the discussion is talking about which society it would be
>most _right_ to have.

An irrelevant discussion.
--
Mike Linksvayer   mlinksva@nyx.cs.du.edu   "Three four dumb"
From: ian@spider.co.uk (Ian Heavens)
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy
Subject: Re: What is Anarchism
Date: 26 Jan 93 19:00:34 GMT
Organization: Spider Systems Limited, Edinburgh, UK

In article <1993Jan22.214322.24487@shearson.com> pmetzger@snark.shearson.com (Perry E. Metzger) writes:
>ian@spider.co.uk (Ian Heavens) writes:
>>In article <1993Jan19.190623.9255@shearson.com> pmetzger@snark.shearson.com (Perry E. Metzger) writes:
>>>
>>>Get real, Mr. Cooke. Socialists have NEVER had a monopoly on the
>>>notion of anarchism, and if anything the anarchocapitalists have been
>>>around longer, as the first people to seriously broach the notion of
>>>anarchism in the modern sense in the 17th century were individualist
>>>rather than collectivist in orientation. In spite of this, of course,
>>
>>Not here, they weren't; the first radical group that can be definitely
>>identified as anarchist were the Diggers, who were definitely
>>collectivist;
>
>[Rest deleted]
>
>Ian, I don't give a damn. The whole point of my messages was that I've
>got a perfect right to call myself an anarchist. If you want to go
>historical, I can claim that the Diggers weren't the first, but that
>the guys who founded Iceland were the first, and were capitalist
>anarchists. We can go at this all day long finding older and older and
>older precedents until we go back to Adam. That wasn't my point. My
>point was to show that there is a reasonable argument for my naming
>myself an anarchist.

I have no argument with this; but you are muddling this issue with that
of the relative importance of the individualist and collectivist traditions;
the former has really only been dominant in the U.S., and in the Anglo-Saxon
community at that (immigrant movements were overwhelmingly collectivist).
And, as I said before, I don't see how you can claim the entire individualist
tradition as anarchocapitalist.

>
>You can scream until you are blue in the face -- I won't listen any
>further. I've made my point. I'm an anarchist. If you don't like it,
>well, tough. You won't be able to get me or any of the other people
>who agree with me to change our appelation.  Why don't you just accept
>this and get on with discussing substantive issues instead?

I'm agreed with this.

ian

---
	 Ian Heavens			ian@spider.co.uk                 
 	 Spider Software
 	 Spider Park, Stanwell Street		
	 Edinburgh, EH6 5NG, Scotland	+44 31 555 5166 (Ext 4347)
--
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy,talk.politics.guns
From: pmetzger@snark.shearson.com (Perry E. Metzger)
Subject: Re: Anarchy
Organization: Partnership for an America Free Drug
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 22:42:49 GMT

tumidity@netlink.cts.com (Joel Garry) writes:
>pmetzger@snark.shearson.com (Perry E. Metzger) writes:
>> Now, I'm not an anarchist-socialist like most of the people you've
>> been conversing with -- I'm an anarchocapitalist. I believe that
>> security services can and should be provided by the free market. As
>> evidence that this can work, I cite the case of Iceland, which
>> operated perfectly well with only private methods for settling
>> disputes from ~900AD to 1252AD, which is longer than any western
>> government I know of has lasted.
>Hey Bjorn, gimme some o' yer mead.
>No.
>Ouch!  Oww! Hey, stop that! Oof!
>Take that!
>Ow! My eye!
>And so, young Olaf the Mad Dog became One-Eyed Olaf.
>Perfect market forces at work.

I believe you don't understand the mechanisms by which the Icelandic
system operated. "Proof by satire" is not a terribly persuasive argument.

>> Now, the arguments for why I believe the private sector could provide
>> security services and the evidence for it are rather long and
>> involved, but I'm happy to go into great detail if you like. I could,
>> for instance, repost an article I posted recently to
>> alt.philosophy.objectivism on this very subject.
>
>An Objectivist!  My god, turn off the Rush Limbarf show and come out of 
>the dark!  Reagan is gone!  How can you not sneeze after reading those 
>dusty old books?  Haven't you heard?  Pure free markets can oscillate 
>with an infinitely long period!  Stuck at the bottom!  Keynes!  Read him 
>and weap!

I was under the impression that the stagflation of the 1970s, which
Keynsian analysis would contend is impossible, pretty much eliminated
the last of the Keynsians, but, of course, the mere disproof of their
dogma appears to have been insufficient to dispatch with them. Your
"pure free markets can oscilate with an infinitely long period"
contention is very nice in theory, but as its never been observed in
practice, it isn't clear that we have any reason to pay attention.

--
Perry Metzger		pmetzger@shearson.com
--
Laissez faire, laissez passer. Le monde va de lui meme.
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy
From: DDFr@Midway.UChicago.Edu (David Friedman)
Subject: Re: What is Anarchism
Followup-To: alt.society.anarchy
Organization: University of Chicago Law School
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 22:32:16 GMT

In article <1993Jan24.165635.143@infodev.cam.ac.uk>,
ajc1@mail.ast.cam.ac.uk (Andrew Cooke) wrote:

"i hate to muddy the waters, but as far as i know it is only in american
use that `libertarian' has capitalist overtones. why do they want the name
anyway?  i has so many	mis-conceptions (i see from my kill file that
somalia is still being discussed) - i'd have thought 'fundamental
capitalist	would be a much better choice."

Glad you asked that question. We adopted the name "libertarian" because the
democratic socialists, or at least the ones who take their socialism in
dilute aqueous solution, stole the name "liberal" which used to be used to
describe our position. That is why some of us use the term "classical
liberal" instead of "libertarian." In Europe, as I understand it, "liberal"
kept something closer to its 19th century meaning (private property, weak
government, freedom of speech, civil liberties, ...  that package), which
may be why "libertarian" has not acquired the pro-private property
connotations that it now has in the american context. I presume this is in
part because "socialist" has much more favorable connotations in European
than in American usage, so the socialists had no need to change their name.
What a mess.

Incidentally, in american usage "libertarian" is a broader term than
"anarcho-capitalist" or "libertarian anarchist." Lots of libertarians
(sometimes identified as "minarchists") believe in limited government with
private property, no drug laws, etc. etc. In the libertarian context,
anarchists represent the hard core position, taking the argument for
reducing the state all the way down to no state at all. That may be one
reason why american libertarian anarchists see this group as a natural
place to post.

This thread suggests a meta-issue. One virtue of and problem with the net
is that it starts conversations between people in previously disjoint
communities. Each community tends to have its own terminolog, and take it
for granted that that terminology is right and anyone who uses the same
words differently is a fool or rogue. That works as long as you are only
arguing intra community, but causes serious misunderstanding and hard
feelings when, as here, people who honestly believe in different "real
meanings" for the same word come in contact.


David Friedman
University of Chicago Law School

"I'm still a liberal; it's those people who aren't liberals." 
"As much as ever, more than ever, I believe in liberalism. But there was a
time of rosy innocence when I believed in liberals."

(G.K. Chesterton on the British Liberal Party c. 1910--quotes are from
memory so probably not verbatim).
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy