HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jacobs@cs.utah.edu (Steven R Jacobs)
Subject: Re: E. Clifton Davis & New Blackjack
In-reply-to: jil@donuts0.uucp's message of Mon, 16 Nov 92 16:04:25 GMT
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept
Distribution: na
Date: 16 Nov 92 12:21:02

In article <1992Nov16.160425.22767@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> jil@donuts0.uucp (Jamie Lubin) writes:

>Got something in the mail re a "free" BJ seminar.  It's run by E. Clifton
>Davis who has written a book (they say) entitled "New Blackjack."  Then an
>agenda is listed including:
>
>   Basic Strategy makes you lose
>   card counting doesn't work
>   win 75% of your double downs
>   win more hands than the dealer
>

A couple of comments here:  the goal is not to win more *often* than the
dealer, but to win more money than you lose.

> This is followed by endorsements by BJ author Jerry Patterson, BJ dealers,
> BJ pit bosses, etc.

I would guess that just about anything endorsed by pit critters is likely
to favor the house rather than the player.
--
Steve Jacobs  ({bellcore,hplabs,uunet}!utah-cs!jacobs, jacobs@cs.utah.edu)
"Don't worry, I just have these harmless pocket rockets...."
From: erwin@bend.ucsd.edu (Sean Erwin)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Net Poker Server: What happened
Date: 19 Nov 92 00:34:31 GMT
Organization: Linguistics Department, UCSD
NNTP-Posting-Host: bend.ucsd.edu

Here's what happened:

-------------------------
From: Adam Stoller <ghoti+@andrew.cmu.edu>
To: erwin@bend.ucsd.edu (Sean Erwin)
Subject: Re: Problems at w8

Sean,

My machine became quite a bit overloaded yesterday - in part due to a routing
host (relay1.uu.net) not accepting SMTP connections for a while.  At one
point there were over 370 pieces of mail trying to be sent through my
my machine.  

Ron is currently on vacation (or otherwise unavailable) and so I wasn't able
to contact him regarding how to put a temporary hold on incomming mail for
the dealer while trying to process all the delayed mail.

I began stopping (kill -STOP) as many of the floorman and daemon processes
concerned with the tournament - and managed to get the load down to about
75 pieces of mail trying to go through.

I've no doubt that the amount of traffic that has gone through my system
has in various ways taken it's toll - I'll be rebooting the system a litte
while from now, and hopefully that will replenish whatever resources have
been exhausted.

Sorry about all the problems, I hope they are soon cleared up.  If you know 
your table is still having problems tomorrow (after 10am) - send me some
more mail, and I'll try to take another go at it.

--fish
---------------------

I am posting this without permission from Adam.  I hope he won't want to kill
me!  So, there's no more need to send lots of email to the tournament gods,
although it seems they probably have 50+ messages about this already.  When
Ron comes back, he'll have quite a surprise waiting for him!  Hopefully things
will be back to normal soon.   And PLEASE don't flame Adam Stoller, even if
things aren't back up by 10am tomorrow.  Flame me instead.

---Sean Erwin
erwin@bend.ucsd.edu
From: swood@unixg.ubc.ca (Stephen Wood)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Excalibur was {Re: SD rules (was Re: AMEX Trop Deal)
Date: 18 Nov 1992 00:19:02 GMT
Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: unixg.ubc.ca

In article <1992Nov17.010606.9762@kronos.arc.nasa.gov> hall@kronos.arc.nasa.gov (Michael Hall) writes:
>In article <1992Nov14.171740.26690@midway.uchicago.edu> kolt@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>>In article <eric.106.0@hup.ucla.edu> eric@hup.ucla.edu (Eric J. Splaver) writes: [munch]
>>> Excalibullshit is 
>>>also acceptable but watch the table rules closely, I played for about 
>>Don't knock it! I;'m convinced that this is the best SD game available. It 
>>moves faster than CC, it's just as easy to get meal comps (and I'd much rather
>
[preferential shuffling munch]
>
>Anyone else have an opinion on whether Excalibur single deck is the best
>or worst game in Vegas?  I have a sneaky suspicion it depends on what size
>action you give them...
>
 I enjoyed playing in the Excalibur recently since they have an entire
smoke free pit.  I was staying at the Frontier (free rooms, arrived Saturday 
at 9pm - sorry sir we only have the $55 rooms - what the hell its free
anyway) and needed to give my lungs a rest.  Circus-2 has a smoke free
pit but it drifts in from the slots.  Riviera has smoke free tables and
a high ceiling so that can be OK.  Anyway Excalibur was a good refuge
for exhausted lungs.

Regarding the Excalibur game they have SD, D9, S17 and DD, DOA, DAS, S17.
Since I play 6D, DOA, DAS, H17 in my home town I consider these games
playable.  Playing red the SD games I saw were two rounds to 5, 6 or 7;
3 rounds to 4 and 5 X 2.  I left one table after the dealer got BJ on 
both first and second round.  I recall that I did much better on DD and
was a little concerned about the SD but nothing specific.  I think I made
40 units over an extended 8 hour session (not including meal breaks).

So is Mike's problem the action he gives them?
>
From: moscatel@granite.ma30.bull.com (Joseph Moscatelli)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Monday Night Football 11/23
Date: 17 Nov 92 13:52:10 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Bull HN Information Systems Inc.
Originator: moscatel@granite.ma30.bull.com

I would be interested in any thoughts/opinions/analysis of next Monday night's
game, for obvious reasons. Current line has New Orleans (home team) favored
over Washington by 3 1/2. Response via email is fine.
Thanks,
Joe
-- 
 == Joseph A. Moscatelli                ==
 == Bull HN Information Systems         ==
 == j.moscatelli@granite.ma30.bull.com  == 
 
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: jacobs@cs.utah.edu (Steven R Jacobs)
Subject: Re: Rank of Hold`em Pocket Cards
In-reply-to: jamesr@Autodesk.COM's message of 19 Nov 92 18:31:36 GMT
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:36:04

In article <17967@autodesk.COM> jamesr@Autodesk.COM (James Rowell) writes:

> mzimmers@netcom.com (Michael Zimmers) writes:
>
>> This statement, along with the reference to Steve Jacobs' posting,
>> leads me to believe that you'd rank hands solely on their chances
>> of being the best hand.  BIG mistake (IMHO).  Consider JTs and 99 -
>> both group 3 hands.  One has a higher probability of winning, but
>> the other, when it wins, has a better chance to win a larger pot.
>> These two factors offset one another, and the EV of each hand is
>> close enough to group them together.
>
> Interesting point.  But note that I never said anything about SOLELY
> ranking hands in this manner.  I said that given the information, then
> I could make my own judgements about what hands to play.  This may
> in fact involve giving some hands higher importance due to the fact
> that you may win bigger pots with them.
>
>> And as Sklansky is so fond of saying, the object of poker is not
>> to win pots, but to win money.  So, using a formal table of winning
>> probability is a flawed way to rank starting hands.
>
> I'm in agreement with your statement above, but to claim that ranking
> hands in a formal way is flawed is slightly overkill.

I'd say _huge_ overkill.  Winning more money rather than more pots
is equivalent to maximizing expectation rather than maximizing the
probability of winning.  If anything, formal methods that are applied
correctly only server to _underscore_ the correct goals of poker play.

> One could take
> such a formally derived table, factor in expected winnings for the
> given hands and then derive an M&S type table.  Perhaps that's what
> they did.
>
> I feel, perhaps incorrectly, that your objection to my idea is more
> emotional in that I'm actually critisizing M&S!  Let's not discourage
> genuine scientific enquiry eh?!  Maybe my mistake was claiming that
> what I proposed might be better than M&S.  Perhaps I should have
> left value judgement comments out of my posting.  Live and learn.
> (Malmuth and Sklansky may be amazing, but their just people
> like you and me, no-ones perfect.)
>
> Hey, Steve, why don't you bail us out of this hole we're digging
> ourselves into! I'd like to hear your views. :-)

Bail you out?  It's more fun to watch :-)

I agree that a lot could be done to add to the current base of poker
knowledge, and that a lot can be gained from a formal approach.
--
Steve Jacobs  ({bellcore,hplabs,uunet}!utah-cs!jacobs, jacobs@cs.utah.edu)
"Don't worry, I just have these harmless pocket rockets...."
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: kolt@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Matt K/Gonzo)
Subject: Re: Excalibur was {Re: SD rules (was Re: AMEX Trop Deal)
Reply-To: kolt@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 12:45:04 GMT

In article <eric.114.0@hup.ucla.edu> eric@hup.ucla.edu (Eric J. Splaver) write:
[truth about horrible realization of exc. theme deleted :-]
>As far as SD conditions at the Ex; I've seen two hands of four far more 
>than three hands of four, and I too have been shuffled up against when going 
>from two hands of $5-10 to one hand of $50. 
It is fairly standard practice to shuffle when someone
a) enters with a big bet
b) more than doubles/triples (depends on club) his bet.

I think it's asking a bit much to expect them NOT to shuffle when you go from
$10 to $50.
>IMHO if you can't play SD with 
>a minimum spread of 1-6 and decent penetration (75%+) you won't live long 
>enough to make your play profitable.

Well, I agree, in that, if you don't do anything to disguise your play, 
dealers will be forced to do the job the bosses want them to do and will make
your play unbearable. As a result it WILL take a lifetime to beat SD, since
you will be shuffled up on or barred at many clubs. (All this IMHO.)

I have a coupla questions about penetration. It seems that most people talk 
about % of the deck dealt out. This does not seem important as a figure 
taken alone. A figure I use, which is biased to a player using few strategy
adjustments, is "avg. # of cards dealt before each bet." This help show
how much better a head on game can be. It also shows why 3x3, even tho you
see fewer cards than 2x7, is just as good a game, since avg # cards b4 each
bet is equal.

Another question. People never seem to talk about # of spots at DD games. 
But running numbers thru a pocket calculator leads me to believe that a 6 spot
DD table runs into the same snag an SD table does: there are not quite enuff
cards to deal 5 rounds, so you get a consistent 4x6. Obv, since 2x6 is a 
marginal SD game, 4x6 cannot be a good DD game. Anyone have any ideas here?

Matt


-- 
Matt Koltnow   B0 t-- w- c g+ k s+ e r- p   "Truth is not kind; and you
Email: kolt@midway.uchicago.edu              say neither am I." --Toad the    
Ntalk: kolt@ellis.uchicago.edu (or @quads)   Wet Sprocket      
Boycott the IP... R.I.P. MSS...Hugs to all...Standard Disclaimers Apply...
From: mbuck@fibers (Michael D. Buck)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Re: I got "counter-measured"!  What went wrong?
Date: 23 Nov 92 18:59:28 GMT
Article-I.D.: fibers.1992Nov23.135928.672
Reply-To: fibers!mbuck@dg-rtp.dg.com
Distribution: world
Organization: Allied Fibers, Petersburg VA

In article <lgqqedINNgju@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM>, price@chuckles.Eng.Sun.COM (Chuck Price) writes:

> It sounds like the dealer suspected you of counting, but not the pit
> boss. According to your note, you didn't actually get barred, just
> accused by the dealer.

Maybe, but the behavior of the dealer(s) involved changed noticeably
*after* they came back from break, as if a pit boss had told them
things before they got back to the table.

> So my first question is, were you tipping the
> dealer regularly? Sounds like you won a lot, were you placing dealer
> bets (ie, paying hush money? :-)  Did you attempt to build a rapport
> with him, since you were there, draining him, for 2.5 hours (hence
> making him look bad to his boss)?

I was probably not tipping well enough, I imagine, to have any
effect on the dealer.  Anyone have any general guidelines of how
much (and how often) to tip at various bet levels?
 
> Second question, were you playing too "smart"? Avoiding strong plays
> like splitting tens and taking insurance (when it is advantageous)...

Didn't really have an opportunity to do any of the "obvious" plays.
The situations simply didn't arise.  

> Were you pulling back bets when the dealer shuffled?

No.


> When playing at the Flamingo, I play at slow times if possible, with
> small ranges in bets, and attempt to strike up a conversation with the
> dealer.

I am working on the "converse with the dealer" part, but if our
exchange goes back and forth more than two times, I find it
difficult to keep the count *and* appear normal during conversation.
I end up being noticeably slow in conversation.  Like I said, I'm
working on it....
 
> Oh, and finally, I'd recommend only converting a small amount of your
> table stake to chips at one time. Keeping just a few chips out, and
> having to periodically convert money to chips is 1) a good way to
> appear to be losing, and 2) potentially a good opportunity to squirrel
> away winning chips. Having a large stack in front of you is not
> a good idea, IMHO.

Good idea.  Only problem is when you pull out $20 to start with, and
continually win.  It makes it hard to find an occasion where you
need to pull out more money :-).  But, I guess I can deal with that
situation, if it happens to me again.  :-)
________________________________________________________________________
Michael Buck                          |
UUCP: dg-rtp!fibers!mbuck             |
Internet:                             |
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: mbn@skeletor.hf.intel.com (Mike Northam)
Subject: Re: Playing Double-up in roulette
Reply-To: mbn@greyskul.hf.intel.com
Organization: Shorter Software Solutions
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 21:24:53 GMT

>>>>> "don" == Don Delgrande <Don.Delgrande@launchpad.unc.edu> writes:

don> In article <dbarber.721441839@crash.cts.com> dbarber@crash.cts.com (David C. Barber) writes:
[I'm gonna go Martingale]

don> Assuming you're playing a wheel with 0 and 00 (BTW, does anybody know of
don> any casinos in North America that have roulette without 00?), you should

Top Deck of the Cal-Neva (Reno) has single 0 roulette.

>
>Also, do the LV casinos ever ask you to leave, or close the table
>just after you've lost your $128 bet for the sake of "getting" a double
>up player?

I've never seen this happen :-) :-) :-)
--
Mike Northam, Shorter Software Solutions, on contract to Intel Corp.
(h) (503) 324-1831 (intel office) (503) 696-4860 (shorter) (503) 357-1010
mbn@greyskul.hf.intel.com
"You ducks are really trying my patience...but you're SOOO cute. --Apu 9F01
From: "al sorhaindo" <al.sorhaindo@execnet.com>
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: football handicapping
Date: 16 Nov 92 02:11:31 EST
Reply-To: "al sorhaindo" <al.sorhaindo@execnet.com>
Distribution: rec
Organization: Executive Networks Information

Selections for the Week:

To be determined...


I may post handicapping selections in basketball, if their is a demand
for that information. It would probably have to be done by email.
If anyone is interested please send email to me.


Recommended money management would be to play %1-%1.5 of a mythical
bankroll per star.

Last Week:  3-1 +1.9 Units Season 26-17 + 6.9 Units (Including Vigorish)

NOV 14  * BOSTON College + 2- over Syracuse     L 10-27
NOV 15  * KANSAS CITY    + 1  over Washington   W 35-16
NOV 15  * Houston        + 6- over MINNESOTA    W 17-13
NOV 15  * New England    + 7  over INDIANAPOLIS W 37-34
---
  DeLuxe 1.21 #11688  
--
Executive Network Information System  (914) 667-4567
International ILink Host
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: whisnant@iastate.edu (Kerry L Whisnant)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Re: Trip report - Dubuque Casino Belle
Date: 18 Nov 92 16:19:57 GMT
Article-I.D.: news.Bxx6pC.72q
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA

In article <BxvMsv.J8q@news.iastate.edu> whisnant@iastate.edu (Kerry L Whisnant) writes:
>Went to Dubuque, Iowa over the weekend; here's the obligatory report:

I forgot to mention that the Casino Belle is leaving next April to go to
St. Charles, Missouri (west northwest of St. Louis on the Missouri River).
Apparently Missouri passed a referendum allowing casino and/or riverboat
gambling. Does anyone know what the limitations there will be (e.g., bet
or loss limits)? 
-- 
Kerry Whisnant                  High Energy Physics Group
whisnant@iastate.edu            Department of Physics and Astronomy
whisnant@alisuvax.bitnet        Iowa State University, Ames, IA 50011
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: keith@taligent.com (Keith Rollin)
Subject: Re: Rank of Hold`em Pocket Cards
Followup-To: rec.gambling
Organization: Taligent
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 22:47:44 GMT

In article <17938@autodesk.COM>, jamesr@Autodesk.COM (James Rowell) wrote:
> 
> In Hold`em Poker for Advanced Players, Malmuth and Sklansky rate
> the opeing hands according to their own criteria.  (It's great
> but it'd be nice to see exactly how they derived the tables.)
> 
> It seems to me that the hands could be ranked better by a purely
> rigorous mathematical evaluation of all the opening hands.  What
> is each hand's exact mathematical expectation to win?  (I think
> this means, if you played each opening hand head up against every
> other opener a jillion times each, what would its percentage win
> be in each case?  Stats experts may have a better way of stating
> what I'm stumbling on about if it makes any sense at all!) Once
> you have this information, you can make "value judgements" (no
> pun intended) about how you feel about playing certain hands.
> This MUST have been done, anyone know where?  OR Anyone figured
> this out and want to share it?  (I've thought about it briefly
> and it seems ugly, but maybe I'm missing something obvious.)

I'm not sure that ranking the pocket cards is possible or feasible.
Position plays SUCH a large part of the game that you'd probably have to
generate a chart for each position, also taking into account the number of
folders, callers, and raisers before you. Also, because so many cards are
visible and common, bluffing and psychology as well as the tightness of the
game are significant factors.

Personally, I don't think a "more accurate" chart would be useful. Malmuth
and Sklansky have given me what I needed with their table -- a rough
guideline of what can be played and when.

-----
Keith Rollin
Phantom Programmer
Taligent, Inc.
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: slaven@iastate.edu (Dave Slaven)
Subject: Re: Net Poker Server: What happened
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames IA
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 16:30:45 GMT

Hey guys!  This is not a problem!  We've done this without a server
before!  All we have to do is send all our bets to Will!  He can
handle the whole thing manually again, just like the first tournament!
So what if it's four times as many players?!
:-) :-) :-)

Right, Will?  Will?????  Put down the knife, Will!!!


-- 
Dave Slaven 

"What do you do after you've ruined your life?"  --Mose Allison
From: evincent@sargas.usc.edu (Eric Vincent)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Vegas "tours"
Date: 17 Nov 1992 18:47:53 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: sargas.usc.edu
Keywords: vegas tours

I will be going to Las Vegas during Thanksgiving week.  I've been
several times and have done some of the standard tourist things
(Hoover Dam tour, Mirage tigers and volcano, etc.).  However, I am
wondering if anyone knows of any non-tourist tours of the city.
Specifically, I don't want a Grey Lines tour of the city on a bus with
someone speaking over a loudspeaker.  I'd be much more interested in
an informal tour of only a few people which describes the history of
the town, how it has grown, etc.

I would also be interested to know if any of the major hotels offer
tours of their facilities.  I'm not speaking specifically of the
casino operations, but a look at how the entire infrastructure of
these huge complexes manages to continue running on a 24-hour a day
basis.

Please let me know via a direct reply and I will post a summary of the
responses later.

Thanks in advance for any help,


-- 
Eric Vincent, University Computing Services, U of Southern California
  INTERNET: evincent@usc.edu                 PHONE: (213) 740-2957
  UUCP: ...!uunet!usc!evincent               BITNET: evincent@gamera
From: leej@sgi.com (Lee Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Re: Rank of Hold`em Pocket Cards
Date: 17 Nov 1992 23:41:09 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: diver.asd.sgi.com

In article <keith-171192143318@kip-16.taligent.com> keith@taligent.com (Keith Rollin) writes:
>
>I'm not sure that ranking the pocket cards is possible or feasible.
>Position plays SUCH a large part of the game that you'd probably have to
>generate a chart for each position, also taking into account the number of
>folders, callers, and raisers before you. Also, because so many cards are
>visible and common, bluffing and psychology as well as the tightness of the
>game are significant factors.
>
>Personally, I don't think a "more accurate" chart would be useful. Malmuth
>and Sklansky have given me what I needed with their table -- a rough
>guideline of what can be played and when.

Yeah - what he said.  

Recently a writer in Card Player described seeing Johnny Chan throw away
pocket kings pre-flop when an opponent shoved a bunch of chips into the 
pot.  The opponent then admitted (by showing his cards) that he had 
pocket one's.  Obviously, Chan was operating on a level of understanding
and opponent reading that is beyond most of us, but it hammers home the point
that any ranking of hands is relative to a *whole* lot of things.  Like
Keith says, the chart gives you a good rough guide.  Furthermore, the
rest of that chapter gives a lot of information about how to apply the 
chart.  

For instance, if you have wired Jacks way in front, you raise hoping to 
limit the number of opponents.  If you're on the button with them, and
have 3-4 callers in front of you, typically you'd just call hoping to flop
a set or at least an overpair.

Regards, Lee
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: hack@arabia.uucp (Edmund Hack)
Subject: Blackjack for Blood
Summary: Anyone read it?
Organization: Lockheed ESC, Houston
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 23:11:39 GMT

There is an ad for this book in the latest Blackjack Forum and an
interesting article by the author on being barred. Anyone read this book
and have comments on it?

(This issue also has a good article by Bill Zender, casino manager at
the Aladin in Las Vegas.  He also wrote "Card Counting for the Casino
Executive".  The article outlines his strategy for running profitable
blackjack: have reasonable rules, deal deeply and shuffle quickly.  Oh
yeah, have a well trained pit that can spot counters and extensive eye
in the  sky coverage so you can spot counters and "back them off".

-- 
Edmund Hack - Lockheed Engineering & Sciences Co. - Houston, TX
hack@aio.jsc.nasa.gov - I speak only for myself, unless blah, blah..
"You know, I think we're all Bozos on this bus."
"Detail Dress Circuits" "Belt: Above A, Below B" "Close B ClothesMode"
Newsgroups: rec.gambling