HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: casper@vxcrna.cern.ch (CASPER,DAVI./PPE)
Subject: Re: May you live in interesting times.....
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: European Organization for Nuclear Research, CERN
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 19:15:00 GMT

In article <1993Jan11.082946.1@vaxb.acs.unt.edu>, roy@vaxb.acs.unt.edu writes...
>Xavier> To actually see astrology work you have to
>Xavier> use the astrological paradign.
> 
>Amen!
> 
>One can not evaluate or test a paradigm on the bases of another totally
>different paradigm. Though advocates of the positivistic (call it logical
>empiricism if it pleases you) paradigm are arrogant enough to judge (or test)
>everything (the entire spectrum of existence) on the grounds of their
>subjective world view. In order to really know a paradigm you got to get into
>it and know it from inside, not by testing it according to your preconceived
>prejudices.  
> 
>Regards, Roy

But the original poster (whose message is not included above) was claiming
that astrological prediction fit into the same 'paradigm' (to use that
overworked word) as weather forecasts and medical dianoses.  So I suppose you
are actually agreeing with me in disagreeing with him.

I'd still like to understand what it means to use the 'astrological paradigm'.
If we say a particular celestial event C leads to/forecasts/inclines to (take
your pick) a certain terrestrial event T, is there some other way of
determining whether that relationship actually holds other than seeing how many
times T happens during C and how many times T happens during (.NOT. C)?

Is this not in fact what many posters to this group claim to be doing all the
time when events come to pass in accordance with their understanding of the
astrological signs?  ("Mercury went retrograde and my baggage got lost at the
airport again", "Uranus conjunct Neptune and a tanker runs aground", "Sun
in the 12th house - it figures Amy Fisher is locked up", etc.)


Dave
From: agray@axion.bt.co.uk (Andy Gray)
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
Subject: Re: May you live in interesting times.....
Date: 6 Jan 93 18:01:14 GMT
Organization: BT Laboratories

Carol wrote :-
|>
|> There is so much to look at - to react to - to analyze.  Would some others
|> on the list be willing to post a few of their findings such as finding what
|> countries have points (within a degree) in their charts of the 18 & 19
|> degree of Capricorn and 25 degress of Scorpio.  Look at the cardinals and

Looking at the chart for my local town, the February conjunction is minutes off
the south Node, in opposition to the radical Uranus. I am intrigued as to what
kind of effect this will have in mundane terms with the event happeneing in the
town's 12 house.

I've taken the 12th house to represent social and volountary workers, the caring
services, and the unemployed labour force. It doesn't really help matters in
trying to resolve the true meaning of the event.

Another interesting observation, which I'm still looking at, is that the MC for
the conjunction conjuncts the town's Ascendant. This seems to place even more
emphasis on the town's identity which already has Saturn trying to maintain
control throughout the year. 

Based on a 12.02 (noon) time, the conjunction seems to be a total mass of air
grand trines (ASC/Moon [Gemini] trine Mercury/Saturn/Sun/MC [Aquarius] trine
Jupiter [Libra]) almost covering the town's kite pattern.

As usual, thoughts welcomed
Andy Gray
From: falis@ajpo.sei.cmu.edu (Edward Falis)
Subject: Re: Natal Interpretation -- you're soaking in it
Organization: Software Engineering Institute
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 09:32:40 EST

In response to the query regarding how to sort out all the different approaches
to natal interpretation, as presented by different authors, you might
find the following book interesting:

"Recent Advances in Natal Astrology" by Geoffrey Dean (I believe) and
another author I can't recall at the moment.  This book came out in
the late 70's or perhaps early 80's, and was a "critical" review of
the various components of natal interpretation, as presented by
many, many authors.

It's a bit of a bucket of cold water, or at least it was for me at the
time (after 10+ years of astrological work), but it provides lots of food
for thought, the opinions of many practicing astrologers, and a
truly mondo bibliography.

- Ed Falis
From: akhanna@hamp.hampshire.edu
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
Subject: help with planetary aspects, please!!
Date: 8 Jan 93 15:57:34 EDT
Organization: Hampshire College
NNTP-Posting-Host: hamp.hampshire.edu

Hello all you astrologer-types who seem to know what you're talking
about!

I have my natal chart, and I know how to interpret it a little.
What I don't really understand is how to interpret planetary aspects.
Could someone give me a hint?

Thank you!
Avani

e mail: akhanna@hamp.hampshire.edu

Newsgroups: alt.astrology
From: Jon@newsbase.cs.yale.edu (Jon Rifkin)
Subject: Re: May you live in interesting times.....
Organization: University of Connecticut Computing Center
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 17:17:40 GMT

>    An interesting question is however, why has the earth itself never been
>a part of the astrological equation? I mean, if we're talking about influence
>most certainly the earth is going to have the most impact(being the closest).

The earth IS part of the equation.  Its position relative to the birth
place determines the houses.
From: aa581@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Sandra Rozhon)
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
Subject: Re: Amy's chart info :->
Date: 8 Jan 1993 14:45:49 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: aa581@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Sandra Rozhon)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc12.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, Carole@brownvm (Carolyn Egan) says:

>
>To keep the Fisher alive even more, here is her birth info.  I don't have
>astrolog here at work, so I'll list the items from my chartwheels chart.


Hi Carol --

Just wondering if you or any of the other astrologers on this list happen to
know if the birth chart can show that a person will be incarcerated at some
point in their life?  Or is this only seen via a progressed or solar arc
chart?

-- 
|~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~|
|  O  | Sandra Rozhon                   aa581@cleveland.freenet.edu|  O  |
|     | Personalized Computer Support                (216) 631-7838|     |
|  O  |  > Tutoring, training, hardware & software installations < |  O  |
From: Carole@brownvm (Carolyn Egan)
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
Subject: Amy's chart info :->
Followup-To: alt.astrology
Date: 7 Jan 1993 21:01:05 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: cis_staff-kntx33.cis.brown.edu

Well...........what happened on Donahue?  Gee whiz, don't keep us in
suspense!

To keep the Fisher alive even more, here is her birth info.  I don't have
astrolog here at work, so I'll list the items from my chartwheels chart.
 Please lay them out on paper.  Thanks
Asc. 13.31 Aries
2nd  18 Taurus
3rd  16 Gemini
4th  and MC 7.12 Can/Cap
5th  2 Leo
6th  4 Virgo   
Koch houses

Sun 28.36 Leo, Moon 27.03 Libra, Merc 3.17 Virgo, Venus 8.38 Leo, Mars
16.04 Virgo, Jup 14.47 Pisces, rx, Sat 14.45 Cancer, Ur 24.45 Libra,
Neptune 6.51 Sag, Pluto 5.16 Libra, NN 15.35 Sag.

To start a brief delineation, look at where the planets lie.  9 on the west
side indicating that she would be a responder, that she would be caught up
in other peoples lives, a sowing incarnation. Next, the chart pattern.  A
bucket shape with Jupiter as the handle. Simply said, Jup in Pisces, 12th -
big fantasies.  Her life continually pumped up with want and need for more.
 In later life she may do a complete reversal and do the higher side of
this placement and become well known for her service. This complete
reversal of needs would be indicated by the Moon/Ur conj in the 7th. 

Other than the retro Mars stationing square to her Moon last Nov. and the
squares to her Asc, I don't see major transits within the orb to indicate
the event (just from my eye - no ephemeris here today) yes, I see Jupiter
may have been on her Mars at the time of the shooting. However, I did place
her solar arc planets around the natal and the hits are there.  
s.a. Sun has come to n. Mars - ego needs with action, lust. 
s.a. Moon trine n. Jupiter - emotional needs flowing to joy, happiness
s.a. Venus is two years from joining with the Sun - that's when she may
marry & get religion!
s.a. Pluto is just short of 2 yrs of joining her Uranus which would
indicate a transformation of her rebelliousness/individuality.
s.a. MC is square to n. Uranus as of 13 weeks ago, indicating unusual and
negative recognition.  This is the unwanted publicity.  It just keeps
cropping up.

Solar arc movement is a form of progressions.  Take all the planets and
move them one degree for every year of life, then compare to the natal
placements.  The method works until the person is 20-30 yrs old, then
calculations should be made as summer babies are astrologically younger
than others.  In general, you should be able to move your planets around in
the chart.  Look at your Venus or Sun & see when they meet.  This can be
birth, marriage, a fine event in your life or just plain old indulgence!

Regards, CArol
From: Carole@brownvm (Carolyn Egan)
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
Subject: Re: May you live in interesting times.....
Followup-To: alt.astrology
Date: 11 Jan 1993 21:02:55 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: cis_staff-kntx33.cis.brown.edu

In article <11JAN199320150799@vxcrna.cern.ch>, casper@vxcrna.cern.ch
(CASPER,DAVI./PPE) wrote:

> I'd still like to understand what it means to use the 'astrological paradigm'.
> If we say a particular celestial event C leads to/forecasts/inclines to (take
> your pick) a certain terrestrial event T, is there some other way of
> determining whether that relationship actually holds other than seeing how many
> times T happens during C and how many times T happens during (.NOT. C)?

Hi Dave,

A while back you posted your chart information (about the time when Maggie
was posting frequently) and I took the liberty today to glance at your
chart only to find you wrapped up in Mars activity. If I may.....

Mars stationed at 27 deg Cancer, in your 10th house of goals, bosses,
authority figures and father.  At the same time, the same (transiting) Mars
was in square to your natal Mars at 27 Libra, in the first house of new
self-made beginnings.  To me this looks like a project you were not able to
get off the ground and an angry situation may have developed as a result. 
The Mars retrograded back to your midheaven today, at 16 degrees Cancer
making public the issue at hand.
The full moon (et al) on Friday Jan. 8th which happened at 18 degrees of
Can/Cap must have illuminated the issue for you.  The full moon actually
formed a grand cross  on your MC, Asc, cardinal axis.  This pattern can
create huge, unsurmountable blocks which can result in incredible
creativity (necessity is the mother of invention).  Care to fill us in? 

Regards, Carol

Oh, yes, Mars energy moves forward 2/15 and will be back to actively
complete the matter at the end of March.    
> 
> Is this not in fact what many posters to this group claim to be doing all the
> time when events come to pass in accordance with their understanding of the
> astrological signs?  ("Mercury went retrograde and my baggage got lost at the
> airport again", "Uranus conjunct Neptune and a tanker runs aground", "Sun
> in the 12th house - it figures Amy Fisher is locked up", etc.)


Regards, Carol
From: lehnen@rsbs0.anu.edu.au
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
Subject: Re: May you live in interesting times.....
Date: 13 Jan 93 11:38:10 +1000
Organization: Research School of Biological Sciences, Australian National University
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.38.3

In article <9JAN199303215784@vxcrna.cern.ch>, casper@vxcrna.cern.ch (CASPER,DAVI./PPE) writes:


 
> Is this really an apt analogy?  Weather patterns are physical patterns which
> directly cause physical effects through a known mechanism.  This is why they
> are somewhat predictable.  

> The movements of the
> planets (= weather system in your analogy) are surely predictable, but the
> means of by which these movements influence anything is entirely unclear.
> 
>>Medical forecasts are the same. . .
> 
> Again, this seems like a poor analogy.  

> Contrast this to a
> planet entering a sign or forming a particular aspect with another - there is
> no known mechanism for connecting this to events on Earth.

> Flame not, and ye shall not be flamed...
> > 
> Dave
> 


All of Dave's arguments are based on the same thing.  Because the "mechanism"
of planitary influence is unknown or not understood then the influence cannot
exist.

Does anyone (or everyone for that matter) see the gross flaw in that sort of
logic.  Where would we be if scientists followed that line of reasoning. . .
"Becuase we don't understand how it works it doesn't work. . . ."

Actually I don't believe that the planets have any influence either.  They are
merely reflective of the unified forces that are opperating in the universe
all the time.  That's why astrology works.

Cheers!

Larry
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center
Date: Friday, 8 Jan 1993 09:45:02 EST
From: <E03SI@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
Subject: Zen and Dannyism

                   WHAT DO YOU THINK?

   "Every Everyday fact
          of Science or Common Sense
    is a Window
          into the Unknown Source
    of All Things."
                                             Cyberpunk Pouggie
                                             January 8th, 1993
---------------------------------------------------------------------
E03SI@cunyvm.cuny.edu
Keeper ot the Danny Pouget On-going
Biography archival effort.
From: cg482@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Linda Paquette)
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
Subject: Re: Amy's chart info :->
Date: 8 Jan 1993 19:45:57 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc10.ins.cwru.edu


Hi Carol,

In regards to what happened to Amy Fisher, if I remember correctly
she was found guilty and sentenced to 15 years in prison.  

Regards,
Linda
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
Subject: Earthquake and  california goes down under water in summer'93 ???
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1993 16:21:00 +0200

Hello All!

I hear from a channel, california has a mega-earthquake and
goes down under water in summer'93 ???
Is this possible?
Also I heared,  major earthquake will happen between feb.'93 and may'93 in
california and in germany too ! (??)...

Has anybody a precise date?

cheers
   Andre

 * Origin: The power of love be with you in all dimensions (2:2403/10)
From: bc@Apple.COM (bill coderre)
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
Subject: Natal Interpretation -- you're soaking in it
Date: 6 Jan 93 23:56:41 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA


So I've been finding out more and more about natal interpretation, and
it seems like everytime I look at a new book, there is a whole bunch
of new factors to consider. Different systems of houses, different
things to be looked at... Frankly, I'm totally confused. Nevermind the
fact that none of the books I've run across seem to agree on the basic
meanings of chart features.

Is there a good text that runs in some form of logical order? I've
just about given up on "The Only Way...to learn astrology". I was
reading along when suddenly they mention some aspect of FDR's chart
that they don't really explain, just suddenly announce "of course it
is clear that..."

I've looked at The Astrologer's Handbook, and although it seems pretty
straightforward, it mentions planetary "afflictions" in the section on
aspects without having defined what is meant by the term first -- and
it isn't defined in the glossary or mentioned in the index!

Hell, I'm totally baffled by the variety and complexity of charts in
general. I'd be tempted to use astrolog, but I can't even decide which
options to set! Is there a "standard" chart generator for Mac? I've
got "Astrologer's Toolbox" but it does equal house system, something
that none of the books I've found seems to explain.

What I'd like to do is to work out an approach step-by-step, which
none of the books I've looked at really does well. I'd also like to
find out what the "usual" "default" "standard" horoscope reading
entails.

Don't take me as a disbeliever -- if I despised the idea I'd just go
away. But what I have seen seems really interesting, if someone could
just make it clear what is supposed to be done, step by step.

bill coderre
From: gautam@vax2.concordia.ca (MUNDKUR, GAUTAM)
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
Subject: Re: Jones Bucket
Keywords: Planetary Patterns
Date: 6 Jan 93 19:31:00 GMT
Organization: Concordia University
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

I read something about planetary patterns in a book, ART OF CHART 
INTERPRETATION by Tracy Marks.

Other patterns include Fan, Bowl, Locomotive, Splash etc. I presume all these
are described in the book by Jones ( I haven't read yet). 

This book also lists many references, one of them being that of Jansky.

Wondering if anyone who has read these books can post on other patterns....

gautam

Newsgroups: alt.astrology
From: lorenmo@microsoft.com (Loren Moore)
Subject: DST in New Zealand?
Date: 09 Jan 93 00:55:24 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corp.
Distribution: usa

Does anybody know if New Zealand practices Daylight Savings Time?
And if they do, is it standard, like most other countries (i.e. end 
of April to end of October)?

thanks,
daemien
From: s0xjg@exnet.co.uk (Xavier Gallagher)
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
Subject: Re: May you live in interesting times.....
Date: 10 Jan 93 16:25:59 GMT
Organization: ExNet Systems Ltd Public Access News, London, UK

In article <9JAN199303215784@vxcrna.cern.ch> casper@vxcrna.cern.ch (CASPER,DAVI./PPE) writes:
>Happy New Year, all.

>
>Is this really an apt analogy?  Weather patterns are physical patterns which
>directly cause physical effects through a known mechanism.  This is why they
>are somewhat predictable.  If the weatherman says a cold front is coming, then
>there is a cold front somewhere, and while it may not move exactly as the
>weatherman expects, or may dissipate, there is a clear connection between that
>system and the foot of snow that may get dumped on you.  Not that the behavior
>of the system is always predictable, but its means of influence is clear.

What you have written above seems to me to say "we know how it works but
not always how those workings will be manifested."  There is a level of
uncertainty which only absalute knowledge of all conditions can deal
with.

For all it is known how a snowflake is formed it is still impossible to
predict the exact shape of the crystal.

In astrology each planet and house has a huge number of possible
meanings
(eg Mars, related to brotherhood, wars, anger, blood, fevers, fights
and a load of other things)  but thereseems to be no way of predicting
the exact manifestation of the Mars energy (beyond instinct and
experience).  Given these conditions and the fact that Mars signifies
different things ni different charts it is no surprise that straight
cause-effects are rare.  To actually see astrology work you have to
use the astrological paradign.

Xave.



-- 
** Xavier Gallagher                        ***********************************
** Genius, Plumber & Madman                ******* s0xjg@exnet.co.uk ********* 
** Part time Dark OverLord Of The Universe ***********************************
From: miller4433@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
Subject: personal ads
Date: 12 Jan 93 21:17:43 -0600
Organization: University of Northern Iowa







































Newsgroups: alt.astrology
From: Carole@brownvm (Carolyn Egan)
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
Subject: Re: Amy Fisher birth data
Followup-To: alt.astrology
Date: 6 Jan 1993 13:42:41 GMT
Organization: Brown University
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: cis_staff-kntx33.cis.brown.edu

In article <1idbaaINNsbs@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, cg482@cleveland.Freenet.Edu
(Linda Paquette) wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi Carol,
> 
> Re: your Amy Fisher birth data.  The wife was not killed.  Very
> badly injured, she still carries a bullet very close to her spine.
> Also, as far as I remember, there is residual paralysis on the 
> right side of her face.  She will be in and out of hospitals
> probably for the rest of her life.

Hello Linda,  
   I sent so much info yesterday that perhaps I wasn't clear that I was
quoting the killing of the wife from the DataNews article.  I saw the t.v.
movie which clearly shows she is still alive.  Won't it be interesting to
see the actual couple on Donohue!
The Today Show, this morning was showing a piece with Amy's lawyer - just
as I was leaving the house.  Darn.  Now that today is Wednesday and I can't
tape, would you or anyone else be able to tell us *more* on this obsession
with the Fisher case after the airing of the show?

Carol

> She and her "wonderful hubby" are going to be on the Phil Donohue
> show Wed. 1/6 because they are tired of the publicity and want
> it stopped.
From: aa581@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Sandra Rozhon)
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
Subject: Re: Re - Cerebral Palsy
Date: 10 Jan 1993 20:08:28 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: aa581@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Sandra Rozhon)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc10.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, tito@ocf.berkeley.edu (Tito Domine) says:

>>	Interesting.  My son has his Sun in the 12th house and is imprisoned
>>in his own body by Cerebral Palsy.  The Sun is squared by Uranus (nervous
>>system) and also happens to be the chart ruler (Leo rising).
>>
>>Sandy
>>-- 
>
>	I would surmise that the afflictions in this chart to the ruler of
>of the first (Sun) or to Mercury or any such similar combinations are more
>numerous than just one to produce such a condition. I theorise that only
>one affliction alone to be not sufficient. 
>
>	Are there any other squares or oppositions in the chart ?
>


Oh, there are several indications in his chart that help encompass the entire
range of his affliction -- the biggest problem of which is his inability to
speak.  I don't have his chart nearby at the moment, but his birth info is

born:  July 23, 1974
time:  7:23 am EDT
place: Cleveland, OH
       81w42  41n30


He has 13 Leo on the Ascendant and 2 Taurus on the MC.


Sandy
-- 
|~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~|
|  O  | Sandra Rozhon                   aa581@cleveland.freenet.edu|  O  |
|     | Personalized Computer Support                (216) 631-7838|     |
|  O  |  > Tutoring, training, hardware & software installations < |  O  |
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
From: yumei@wam.umd.edu (yumei)
Subject: Re: Seeking definitions of terms
Keywords: afflicted elevated
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 13:29:44 GMT

In article <C0pLI0.1pJ@exnet.co.uk> s0jrej@exnet.co.uk (James Ellis-Jones) writes:
>   The affliction is only weak if this aspect is to a benefic planet
>   (i.e. Jupiter or Venus), middling if the aspect is to a neutral
>   planet (i.e. Moon or Mercury), fairly bad if to an outer planet
>   (i.e. Uranus, Neptune, Pluto) or the Sun, and awful if to a malefic
>   (i.e. Mars or Saturn).
>

First of all, thanks for the definitions.  I, for one, find that very helpful.
My question is, what about oppositions?  My natal Sun (Cancer) is in opposition
to Saturn (Capricorn).  Does it spell disaster?  I know it is an affliction
of kind, but what kind?  

						Yumei

-- 
yumei@wam.umd.edu
From: cg482@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Linda Paquette)
Newsgroups: alt.astrology
Subject: Re: Queen Mother's birth data?
Date: 12 Jan 1993 13:02:19 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc10.ins.cwru.edu


Andy,

Was the Queen Mother's birth time AM or PM?

Thanks,
Linda
From: stevek@hpfcmgw.FC.HP.COM (Steve Kauder)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 19:06:09 GMT
Subject: Re: May you live in interesting times.....
Organization: HP Fort Collins, CO