HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bonacci@ecf.toronto.edu (BONACCI John)
Subject: Re: How small rotation required for effective float serve?
Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 01:46:30 GMT

In article <1993Jan11.232334.24093@nas.nasa.gov> yamo@wk209.nas.nasa.gov (Michael Yamasaki) writes:
>In article <kjmiller-110193121147@kjmiller.mitre.org> kjmiller@mitre.org (Kevin Miller) writes:
>> [Buncha stuff deleted...]
>>non-spinning volleyball.  The airflow around a non-spinning, spherical
>>object is inherently unstable.  As the air flows around the ball, small
>>vortices are formed where the air cannot perfectly follow the shape of the
>>ball.  These vortices form in a basically chaotic manner and exert force on
>>the ball as they break away.  The panels, seams, lettering, and valve stem

>Aw, fooey. Sounds like a buncha pseudo-science to me. D'you have refs for
>these conjectures?  Vortices form down stream of the ball (or at least in the
>trailing edge of the ball) and are unlikely to effect the flight of the ball
>much. I'd guess the "basically chaotic" airflow (uh, "normal" air currents in
>(okay, I'm not a fluid dynamicist but you don't sound like one either.)

I'm no fluid dynamicist either.  But in my experience vortex shedding can be
felt as lateral pressure differences before the flow passes the end of even
shallow objects (I encountered this in high-rise building studies, usually
for rectangular cross-sections).  I can see how it is worse for circular
sections than rectangular because the shedding would commence at the midpoint.
Thumbing back through the old undergraduate fluids text (Engineering Fluid 
Mechanics by Roberson and Crowe), I find the following passage in section 11-3 
(entitled 'Vortex Shedding from Cylindrical Bodies'), "...the alternate 
formation and shedding of vortices also creates a regular change in pressure 
with consequent periodicity in side thrust on the cylinder."  If it can happen 
to a cylinder, I imagine the same goes for a sphere-- and even more so.

So even if Mr. Miller is not a fluid dynamicist, at least he seems to retain
knowledge better than average. :-)  Not sure about the chaoticness (sic) of it
all though.

Actually, float-serve physics is a frequently resurrected topic on this
group.  The vortex description was the first one that appealed to my senses.

Cheers and happy floating,
JB
Newsgroups: rec.sport.volleyball
From: yamo@wk209.nas.nasa.gov (Michael Yamasaki)
Subject: Re: How small rotation required for effective float serve?
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, California
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 93 23:23:34 GMT
Distribution: usa

In article <kjmiller-110193121147@kjmiller.mitre.org> kjmiller@mitre.org (Kevin Miller) writes:
> [Buncha stuff deleted...]
>
>Incorrect.  There are aerodynamic forces, other than friction, at work on a
>non-spinning volleyball.  The airflow around a non-spinning, spherical
>object is inherently unstable.  As the air flows around the ball, small
>vortices are formed where the air cannot perfectly follow the shape of the
>ball.  These vortices form in a basically chaotic manner and exert force on
>the ball as they break away.  The panels, seams, lettering, and valve stem
>all have some minor effect on formation of the vortices.  The rate of
>formation and strength of these vortices increases as the speed of the ball
>through the air increases, because it is more difficult for the air to
>follow the shape of the ball.
>

;-) on...

Aw, fooey. Sounds like a buncha pseudo-science to me. D'you have refs for
these conjectures?  Vortices form down stream of the ball (or at least in the
trailing edge of the ball) and are unlikely to effect the flight of the ball
much. I'd guess the "basically chaotic" airflow (uh, "normal" air currents in
a gym are hardly laminar) through which the ball is passing (with an 
unsteady change of the angle of attack) has a much greater effect. 

;-) off...

                                    -Yamo-
                 Numerical Aerodynamic Simulation Systems Division
          	          NASA Ames Research Center

(okay, I'm not a fluid dynamicist but you don't sound like one either.)
From: spud@Apple.COM (Dave "Spud" Kalin)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.volleyball
Subject: VB Leagues/Open Rec in San Francisco?
Date: 12 Jan 93 19:44:53 GMT
Distribution: ba
Organization: Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, CA

Hi.  Are there any volleyball leagues or Open Rec gyms in San Francisco?
Something that is specifically in The City, as I'd rather not get in the
car or take BART to Menlo Park or Emeryville for an IVL game.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks in advance!
   -Dave Kalin
    spud@apple.com
From: robp@landru.network.com (Rob Peglar)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.volleyball
Subject: Re: Back-row blocking FAQ
Date: 7 Jan 93 23:19:31 GMT
Reply-To: robp@landru.network.com
Organization: Network Systems Corporation

There are official USVBA co-ed sixes rules in the book.  They are in the back under
'special' rules.   The USVBA conducts an annual Co-Ed 6's Nationals.

The rule in question is about using a male back-row blocker.  You are allowed to
use one male back-row blocker when there is only one male (i.e. two females) in
the front row.  This player is still under the back-row attack rule(s), however.

Rob
USA National Referee
---
-legal mumbo jumbo follows-
This mail/post only reflects the opinions of the poster (author), 
and in no manner reflects any corporate policy, statement, opinion,
or other expression by Network Systems Corporation.
From: sam@esl.com (Samuel Hahn)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.volleyball
Subject: Re: Stanford men's VB schedule?
Date: 11 Jan 93 16:23:57 GMT
Reply-To: Samuel Hahn <sam@esl.com>
Distribution: ba

In article <1993Jan8.043624.28650@leland.Stanford.EDU>  
oski@leland.Stanford.EDU (L. Ravi Narasimhan) writes:
> Did someone say Stanford Volleyball?
> 
> >engage booster mode<

[schedule deleted]

Many thanks -- Sam
From: jcp29389@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (I Spike - Therefore I Am)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.volleyball
Subject: Re: How small rotation required for effective float serve?
Date: 4 Jan 93 20:51:24 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

fred@wuee1.wustl.edu (Fred U. Rosenberger) writes:




>How little spin is required for an effective float serve?
>One revolution of the ball from server to receiver?
>One/half revolution?
>Less?

>Thanks,

>Fred

0 revolutions.

-- 
   _/    _/   _/_/_/		Jay Pardee
  _/    _/     _/		pardee@cs.uiuc.edu	University of Illinois
   _/_/     _/_/_/					 Urbana-Champaign
From: gt1762c@prism.gatech.EDU (Cooper D. Yang)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.volleyball
Subject: volleyball in Macon, GA?
Keywords: where? recreational!
Date: 6 Jan 93 22:40:01 GMT
Distribution: ga
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology

I just moved to Macon, GA and was wondering if there
was any recreational volleyball leagues around the
Macon area?

Any helpful responses will be greatly appreciated-
cooper
-- 
YANG, COOPER = Wk ph# (404) 894-6881 & Hm ph# (404) 874-7222  
31762 Georgia Tech Station, Atlanta, Georgia  30332
Internet: gt1762c@prism.gatech.edu -or- cyang@pod.courier.gatech.edu 
"The more I know, the less I understand..."  -D. Henley
From: rwolken@rtormw.enet.dec.com
Newsgroups: rec.sport.volleyball
Subject: Re: How small rotation required for effective float serve?
Date: 12 Jan 93 11:03:58 GMT
Reply-To: rwolken@rtormw.enet.dec.com ()
Distribution: usa
Organization: DisOrganisation is more Appropriate.


>
>Good technique is to put a big dent in the ball with
>no spin.  The distorted ball will attempt to recover
>its original shape in flight while encountering
>"natural" eddies, drafts etc...   My float serve
>- when its working anyway - does wobble in the air
>and on good nights 3 or 4 S-turns.
>
>Contrary to the FAQ, valve placement does indeed
>affect the flight of the ball.  The ball tends
>to float in the direction the valve is pointing
>during contact from experience.  I normally
>try to contact the ball on valve for really wild
>movement.

I'd been writing a similar response when my link was aborted
yesterday. 

My personal experience is however the reverse, namely that
the float tends to be opposite to the position of the valve,
ie. If the valve remains at the top during flight the ball 
will drop (as it decelerates, ie. late). Float left if the valve
is right, etc...(Directly contacting the valve would produce the 
least predictable reaction). The harder/sharper the contact with no rotation 
the extremer the float.  

Reason: Ball distorted temporarily after contact, but valve area is less 
affected because its stiffer and therefore smoother. 

Seems to work for me, (Or perhaps I've simply conditioned myself to
believe this)

Just try it, and maybe you'll be surprised. Remember, the sharper the
contact, the more distortion of the ball. I use the balls of my wrist
for the contact position, the Japs use this "Round Arm" float
serve and contact the ball with the base of the thumb/index finger. 
A flat handed float serve defeats the purpose. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

	Richard Wolken, M|nchen, Deutschland. (089)9591-1028.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.sport.volleyball
From: tomp@sr.hp.com (Tom Parker)
Subject: Re: Back-row blocking FAQ
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 19:35:24 GMT
Organization: HP Sonoma County (SRSD/MWTD/MID)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8.2]

Glenn Corwin (glennc@bitstream.com) wrote:

: Were you playing by the STRICT "Coed" rules?
:    a) The serving order and positions on the court at service shall be an
:       alternation of male and female, or vice-versa.

In our league, this is not enforced.

:    b) When the ball is played more than once by a team, at least one of the
:       contacts shall be made by a female player.

This is not enforced.

:    c) Uniforms of players shall be identical within the following provisions:

This is not enforced.

:    d) When only one male player is in the front row at service, one male back
:      row player may be forward of the attack line for the purpose of blocking.

This is enforced.

:    e) The height of the net for Co-Ed play shall be 2.43m (7' 11 5/8").

This is enforced.

Sounds like we got screwed by a selective use of rules.  I don't really
care what the players wear, but it doesn't seem fair to claim that d)
holds when we don't play by a) and b).  (Unless, of course, everybody
agrees ahead of time, which I know was not the case.)

Thanks for posting the rules,
tom
Newsgroups: rec.sport.volleyball
From: jennrich@kastor.itp.uni-hannover.de (Oliver Jennrich)
Subject: 14th Women's Nation Cup in Bremen
Organization: Institut fuer Theoretische Physik, Uni Hannover
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 08:39:52 GMT

Here are the results from the final round of WNC in Bremen:

Semifinals:

Cuba-Germany : 3:0 (15:8,15:8,15:5)
Russia-Italy : 3:1 ( ??? )

5th :
Turkey - Chekoslovakia : 3:1 (8:15,15:13,15:11,15:11)

3rd :
Germany-Italy : 3:2 (15:6,7:15,0:15,16:14,15:12)

1st :
Cuba-Russia : 3:0 (15:12,15:7,15:10)


Russia and Germany are qualified (winner of the qualification round)
as european participants for the Grand Prix in Asia ( HK I think ).

By so far
Oliver






-- 
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|  -oje-  Oliver Jennrich                     Institut f"ur theor. Physik |
|  jennrich@kastor.itp.uni-hannover.de        Universit"at Hannover       |
+-----  If there are any opinoins expressed, they are possibly mine ------+
From: tomp@sr.hp.com (Tom Parker)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.volleyball
Subject: Re: Back-row blocking FAQ
Date: 7 Jan 93 23:25:42 GMT
Organization: HP Sonoma County (SRSD/MWTD/MID)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.4 PL6]

> Question:  Were you playing coed?  And were you playing sixes?

Yes and yes.

tom
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 13:49:10 CST
From: Margaret Bird Altier <U10521@uicvm.uic.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.sport.volleyball
Subject: Penn State and Pepperdine: men's schedules?

Could someone please post the schedules for Penn State and/or Pepperdine?
Thanks much!

Margaret Altier
UIC Computer Center
Xref: sparky rec.sport.volleyball:2944 ba.sports:696
From: sam@esl.com (Samuel Hahn)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.volleyball,ba.sports
Subject: Stanford men's VB schedule?
Date: 7 Jan 93 01:11:20 GMT
Reply-To: Samuel Hahn <sam@esl.com>
Followup-To: rec.sport.volleyball
Distribution: ba

Does anyone out there have a postable Stanford men's VB schedule?  Don't they  
start their season about now?  Haven't seen any announcements in SJM (SOP,  
unfortunately).  

Thanks -- Samuel Hahn
          <sam@esl.com>
Newsgroups: rec.sport.volleyball
From: jpy@cs.columbia.edu (John P Yu)
Subject: Re: How small rotation required for effective float serve?
Followup-To: rec.sport.volleyball
Organization: Columbia University
	<seal.726454934@leonardo> <1ik96u$mla@agate.berkeley.edu>
	<1993Jan8.225548.29105@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu>
	<kjmiller-110193121147@kjmiller.mitre.org>
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 07:42:30 GMT


I suppose it's time to clarify (or confuse) some issues
concerning the float serve.  From my experience the
ball is rarely perfectly spherical when served.

Good technique is to put a big dent in the ball with
no spin.  The distorted ball will attempt to recover
its original shape in flight while encountering
"natural" eddies, drafts etc...   My float serve
- when its working anyway - does wobble in the air
and on good nights 3 or 4 S-turns.

Contrary to the FAQ, valve placement does indeed
affect the flight of the ball.  The ball tends
to float in the direction the valve is pointing
during contact from experience.  I normally
try to contact the ball on valve for really wild
movement.

As for ball rotation, anyone who's taken a jump
shot knows that a even a little spin makes the
ball's flight more consistent.  Certainly, not
what you want with a good serve.

End of my $0.02

--
===============================================================================
The rogue warrior |.,..@....V.O*L/L)!?...EY.]+#####+B.A.....LL.....U..S.A*....|
===============================================================================
#include <std.disclaimer>
From: alee@atlas.nafb.trw.com
Newsgroups: rec.sport.volleyball
Subject: VB Magazine Ball Review
Date: 4 Jan 93 17:05:24 PST

Hello Netters,
              Volleyball Magazine has their first ever ball review in the 
March issue. A summary follows:

INDOOR

   Ball               List Price      Comments
Tachikara SV5W          50.00        Editors Choice > $49. Top grain leather
Molten Soft Touch       42.00        Editors Choice < $49. Top grain leather
Mikasa VFC200           37.00        Best Value < $49. Top grain leather

OUTDOOR

   Ball               List Price      Comments
Spalding Top Flite 18   78.00        Editors Choice < $50. Top grain leather
Brine Beach Elite       56.00        Best Value < $50. Top grain leather
Mikasa Beach Pro        50.00        Best Value > $50. Top grain leather
Spalding Adam Johnson   35.00        Editors Choice < $49. Synthetic Leather
Wilson Tourn. Gold      29.00        Best Value < $49. Synthetic leather
Spalding Pro Serve      15.00        Best Value < $20. Synthetic leather

It should be noted that list price is not a good guide for choosing a ball.
I bought a Tachikara SV5W for $35 and the lowest I've seen the Mikasa VFC200
is $37.
As for outdoor balls I bought a Top Flite for $40 and I've seen the Mikasa 
Beach Pro for $47.
So don't let the list price fool you, the most popular balls (SV5W & Top Flite)
are discounted more due to higher sales volume. Plus Mikasa balls never seem
to be on sale.

Good Shopping,
               Alex Lee



Newsgroups: rec.sport.volleyball
From: rob@sideout.b30.ingr.com (Rob Whitesell)
Subject: Sand court plans
Reply-To: rob@sideout.b30.ingr.com
Organization: Intergraph Corporation
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 20:19:00 GMT

I am looking for information about the construction of sand volleyball courts.

Our volleyball club is planning on building two courts (side-by-side) with
stationary, permanent net supports.  Ease and speed of 'net hanging' is
important as we do not plan to leave the nets up.

If anyone has construction plans for either courts or supports I would
appreciate them sharing them with us.

I would also appreciate comments on appropriate grades of sand, sand depth,
drainage methods, etc.

Thanks,
Rob Whitesell

rob@sideout.b30.ingr.com
From: alee@atlas.nafb.trw.com
Newsgroups: rec.sport.volleyball
Subject: 1993 AVP Schedule
Date: 4 Jan 93 09:22:17 PST

Happy New Year Everyone,
Here is the AVP Schedule for 1993.

2/4-6      Honolulu, HI (Miller Lite)
3/27-28    Fort Myers, FL (Miller Lite)
4/3-4      Pensacola, FL (Miller Lite)
4/17-18    Pheonix, AZ (Miller Lite)
4/23-24    Clearwater, FL (Jose Cuervo)
5/1-2      Austin, TX (Miller Lite)
5/8-9      San Antonio, TX (Miller Lite)
5/15-16    Fort Worth, TX (Miller Lite)
5/22-23    San Diego, CA (Miller Lite)
5/28-29    Boulder, CO (Jose Cuervo)
6/5-6      Cleveland, OH (Miller Lite)
6/12-13    Chicago, IL (Miller Lite)
6/19-20    Philadelphia, PA (Miller Lite)
6/26-27    Ocean City, MD (Miller Lite)
7/2-4      Manhattan Beach, CA (Killer Loop ?)
7/10-11    Cape Cod, MA (Miller Lite)
7/17-18    Belmar, NJ (Miller Lite)
7/24-25    Grand Haven, MI (Miller Lite)
7/31-8/1   Milwaukee, WI (Miller Lite)
8/7-8      Minneapolis, MN (Miller Lite)
8/14-15    Seal Beach, CA (Miller Lite)
8/20-21    Santa Cruz, CA (Jose Cuervo)
8/27-28    Hermosa Beach, CA (Tournament of Champions, was USA Championships)
9/3-4      Cincinnati, OH (Miller Lite)
9/?-?      Daytona Beach, FL (King of the Beach)

According to Volleyball Magazine NBC will televise (Live ?) as many as 12 
Miller Lite tournaments (i.e. losers bracket final & final) this year. The 
Jose Cuervo tournaments will be shown tape delayed on ESPN, and finally the
PRIME TICKET affiliate will televise tape delayed all other tournaments.
For specific tournament sites youcan phone the AVP at (310)337-4842. I'll
try and post the specific sites when I hear about them.

All the best in the New Year,
                              Alex Lee
Newsgroups: rec.sport.volleyball
From: pwong@ctp.com (Peter Wong)
Subject: Re: Contact Above the Knee
Organization: Cambridge Technology Partners
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 18:12:36 GMT

In article <1i9psoINNe70@agate.berkeley.edu>, sag@hera.Berkeley.EDU (Steve Goldfield) writes:
|> Someone recently stated that after the Olympics, international
|> volleyball rules were changed to permit contact above the knee.
|> 
|> I recently obtained a copy of the 1993 "Official United States
|> Volleyball Rules" (inside it says 1992-93 and copyright 1991)
|> which states unequivocally: "The ball may contact any part of
|> the body on or above the waist."
|> 
|> Have the US rules been changed to be the same as the international
|> rules? Are they reprinting the US rules?
|> 
|> Steve Goldfield        :<{  {>:           sag@hera.berkeley.edu
|> University of California at Berkeley     Richmond Field Station

The USVBA did not adopt the FIVB's new rules as far as contact above the knee 
is concerned.  So if you are playing under USVBA rules...contact above the 
waist still applies.

Peter
-- 
-=+=- -=+=- -=+=- -=+=- -=+=- -=+=- -=+=- -=+=- -=+=- -=+=- -=+=- -=+=-
|Peter C. Wong    pwong@ctp.com |                                     |
|CTP, INC.        (617)374-9800 |        This space intentionally     |
|304 Vassar ST, Camb. MA  02139 |               left blank.           |
Newsgroups: rec.sport.volleyball
From: shugrue@spatial.eid.anl.gov (Leon Shugrue)
Subject: Re: # rotations for float serve
Organization: Argonne National Laboratory
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 02:15:17 GMT

As an aspiring scientist, I know I should be able to come up with my own
explanation of the forces on a v-ball moving through the air. However, 
my most useful suggestion is this:

Try both. I have found that a ball with no rotation tends to dip and swerve
more than one with even the slightest of rotation. In fact, the serves with
a small amount of rotation seem to be the easiest to predict trajectories for.

Actually, I do have $.02 worth of explanation. As a ball is travelling through 
the air, rotatation produces different pressures on each 'side' of the ball, 
relative to the axis of rot. and direction. This is due to Bernoulli's principle,
the phenomenon which makes flight possible, which states that fluids exert less 
pressure at higher speeds. On a topspin, the top of the ball, moving forward faster than
the bottom, exerts a force on the air passing over it,be it friction or what have you. 
This slows the air down, while the air under the ball experiences less of such a force,
creating a higher pressure above the ball, forcing it down. This makes the path
more predictable. Hope this helps clarify ;-) the situation.

Newsgroups: rec.sport.volleyball
From: tomp@sr.hp.com (Tom Parker)
Subject: Back-row blocking FAQ
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 21:40:51 GMT
Organization: HP Sonoma County (SRSD/MWTD/MID)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.4 PL6]

I've been religiously following all the discussion on what's a block and
what isn't and who can block and who can't and I thought I understood
it, but now I'm confused.

I was in a match last night and a back-row player came up and
participated in a (quite effective) double block.  I complained that the
back-row player's block was illegal.  I was then informed that USVBA
rules allow one back-row player to block if there is only one man (or,
presumably, no men) in the front row.

Is this true?  If so, what is the exact rule?

Thanks,
tom parker

P.S.  From the FAQ:

>30. Can a backrow player block?
>    No [8-14-d].
Newsgroups: rec.sport.volleyball
Subject: Where to play Syracuse open ball
From: fehlau@pa881a.inland.com
Date: 7 Jan 93 11:27:45 CDT
Organization: Inland Steel Company, East Chicago, IN
Nntp-Posting-User: khuon

I would like to play volleyball in the Syracuse, N.Y. area
at either an A or B level.  Can anyone tell me where they
play open ball - coed or men's.

Thanks,
         Eric
Newsgroups: rec.sport.volleyball
From: Scott.Marks@launchpad.unc.edu (Scott Marks)
Subject: Re: Contact Above the Knee
Organization: University of North Carolina Extended Bulletin Board Service
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 14:51:16 GMT

In article <1993Jan4.181236.23687@ctp.com> pwong@ctp.com (Peter Wong) writes:
>In article <1i9psoINNe70@agate.berkeley.edu>, sag@hera.Berkeley.EDU (Steve Goldfield) writes:
>|> Someone recently stated that after the Olympics, international
>|> volleyball rules were changed to permit contact above the knee.
>|> 
>|> Have the US rules been changed to be the same as the international
>|> rules? Are they reprinting the US rules?
>|> 
>The USVBA did not adopt the FIVB's new rules as far as contact above the knee 
>is concerned.  So if you are playing under USVBA rules...contact above the 
>waist still applies.

I've heard that the USVBA is going to adopt the FIVB's new rules *next*
season...

scott.marks@launchpad.unc.edu
cq007@cleveland.freenet.edu

--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
From: heycke@sumex-aim.stanford.edu (Torsten Heycke)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.volleyball
Subject: Re: Contact Above the Knee
Followup-To: rec.sport.volleyball
Date: 12 Jan 1993 21:55:53 GMT
Organization: Center for Advanced Informatics at Stanford
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: ksl-mac-98.stanford.edu

For what it's worth: Rule 8, Article 5 of the 1993 *Outdoor* rules allows
for ball contact "with any part part of the body, to include that part
below the waist."

Y'all are playing outdoors now aren't ya? ;)

The other day I hit my best spike. It contacted one of my opponent's feet
and lobbed back nicely over my head. Based on the above rule, the point was
theirs.


Torsten