From: anthropo@carina.unm.edu (Dominick V. Zurlo)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Stan - Hatred is unbecoming
Date: 12 Nov 92 19:30:39 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque


Just for readers clarification, Stan's email to me begins the line
with a % sign.  Tim's original has >>>, Stan's reply has >>
and my reply to Stan has >.  I know most of you will realise this, but
this is just a clarification.  

%I'm going to leave your whole posting intact as I respond-

I shall also leve this intact for clarity on attributions.

In article <cqcqft@lynx.unm.edu> you write:
>In article <1992Nov10.223855.1504@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> stank@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Stan Krieger) writes:
>>Tim Fogarty writes:
>>
> 
>Ok Stan, what round number is this?
>>>Lets assume that you are a 14 or 15 year old boy, in scouting since you 
>>>were 7.  And you come to the realization that you are gay.  You may or may
>>>not still be a virgin, but you still know that you are gay.  Now you hear that 
>>>BSA offical policy is that gays are not allowed.  What does this tell you ?
>>>What does this do to your self esteem ?  What do you do ?  Quit scouting ?
>>
>>The bottom lines on this whole discussion are-
>>
>>   1.	Homosexuality is immoral, and
>>   2. We have control over our behavior and the ability to know
>>	right from wrong.
> 
>Stan,(and everyone else on rec.scouting)
>
>1. in your opinion.  the bottom lines of this discussion are not 
>   whether homosexuality is immoral or not, but if lesbigays 
>   should be allowed into the BSA.   Morality is different for 
>   different people, the BSA agrees with this. 

%The exclusion of lesbigays (I'm using a word you invented for
%simplicity) is consistent with the Scout Law.  Our society defines
%morality, and you know it very well.

First, I didn't invent the word.  It fits, I use it.  it's easier 
than saying lesbian/bi/gays everytime.  
The exclusion is not consistent with the Scout Law at all.  the Scout Law
says nothing about homosexuality.  In fact all it does is to support hte
inclusion of lesbigays.  TO which part are you refering and then I can 
respond.  How does the Scout Law coincide with exclusion?  
And you are correct, our society does define morality, I know that 
quite well, but differing parts of society have DIFFERENT MORALS
which you know quite well!  Just becuase YOU do not accept lesbigays,
does not mean others do not.  If fact, many do.  The last Newsweek
poll from the end of last weeks showed that 80% of the people polled 
were in favor of gay rights.  Gee, gues thatr "society" has spoken.

>2. Agreed about control of our behavior, but as far as the ability to
>know right from wrong, yes within <your> cultural context.  right 
>and wrong are values which change from culture to culture, even 
>generation to generation.

%I don't remember being asked to buy into a culture change regarding
%homosexuality.  It was immoral 3000 years ago, it was immoral 1000
%years ago, and it's still immoral.

No one asked you to buy into anything.  Homosexuality was not immoral 
3000 years ago or 1000 years ago and is not so today to large parts
of the world, and to a great many people.  Check your facts Stan.  
Even your own religion accepted homosexuality until Roman conquest. 
Don't believe me, check out the facts.  See John Boswell's 
*Christianity, Social Tolerance and Homosexuality* it not only 
lists these incidents it gives wonderful sources both from 
within the Judaic traditions and outside them.  
Many cultures do not consider Judaism moral.  Defend that.  
Using your own prejudices to argue don't work, give us reasons.  
Why do you consider homosexuality immoral?  Don't just say it is. 
there are reasons, and then BACK THEM UP.  Only a coward or 
incompetent can not give at least solid reasoning if not proof
to back claims. 

>>The Scouting position on homosexuality is consistent with these
>>points.

>I disagree.  the Scouting position is that it is fine.  Other
>countries have Scouting programs that allow lesbigays in them. 
>the BSA does not.  DO NOT make a statement for the entire 
>Scouting movement when you are incorrect Stan. 

%Is that the best you can do? Split hairs?

No, I'm not splitting hairs. I'm making a comment.  If I were 
splitting hairs I'd not be talking positions at all.  An 
organisation can't have a position, only policies.  
Don't be an ignoramous Stan.  I pointed out that other
countires do have lesbigays in their scouting programs, and
that this is not a consistant policy with socuting worldwide.
If you can't see that then you are as ignorant as you appear.

>>>One does not choose one's sexual orientation.  I knew that I was "different"
>>>as early as the age of 7.  I have memories of feelings that I know know to
>>>be expresions of my homosexuality.  I did not associate these feelings with
>>>the word "homosexual" until I was in college.  However, now with the gay rights
>>>movement in the news, if growing up today, Im sure I would put 2 and 2
>>>together at a much younger age.  I have friends who knew that they were 
>>>gay as early as the age of 12.
>>
>>All this tells me is that there are organized groups who feel that
>>there's nothing wrong with telling teenage boys that if they have
>>feelings for members of the same sex, that it's "ok" and "normal".
>>That is NOT the lesson that a responsible adult should be teaching
>>to any child, and anybody who does so is nothing short of a child
>>abuser.

>I cry here foul! I ask this newsgroup to please read this carefully.  
>To Stan, you owe myself and all the other lesbigays on this net and 
>all PEOPLE who do feel it is alright to teach children it is "ok"
>an apology.  NOW !!!   If you continue to call people child abusers,
>I will have brought up on charges of slander.  You are impugning 
>my charater based on your opinion, and in that regard you have no 
>right to do so.  You, in my eyes, have lost the right to courteous
>discourse, You have show yourself to be a disgrace to most of the 
>people in scouting that I know.  Your comment is libelous and 
>uncalled for.  Substantiate your claim and I will be silent. 
>If you can not, apologise and GET OFF! 

%Homosexuality is immoral based on our societal norms.  No adult has
%the right to teach a child that it's "proper" behavior.

It is immoral based on YOUR PERSONAL beliefs.  Not your religious, 
not society, no one but you!  SHow me one substantiated study that 
showss homosexuality to be immoral based on societal norms.  Bet you
can't find one!  
No adult has the right to teach anyone to HATE as you do.

%I don't owe you or anybody else an apology.  Teaching my son that such
%behavior can be "normal" is no different, and just as abhorent, as 
%teaching him that living in a hippie commune or a religious cult is
%"ok".

And here we go again.  Stan you do owe quite a few people an apology.  
You do not deserve to be in a position to teach anyone.  I point out
once again that Stan is a bigot.  Plain and simple.  You do not 
have any tolerance for other people and their cultures and their
lives and for what they believe in religiously!  Get out of Scouting!
one thing it does teach in the BSA is to tolerate and learn about 
other religions and to respect them.  You do not. You do not follow
the BSA policy.  Get OUT!

>>>The point is that there are tens of thousands of boys in scouting today who
>>>are homosexual, whether they know it or not, and whether they are virgins or
>>>not.  Should a genetic or biological test for homosexuality be given to each 
>>>11 year old prior to granting membership ?
>>
>>No, the point is more like there are 1000's of boys who, in a jungle
>>environment, would seek out other males for sexual gratification.
>>However we, as a specifies, have established standards of morality
>>that governs our behavior, and among the standards that our society has
>>established is that such a means of seeking sexual gratification is
>>wrong.  No matter how our base animal instincts drive us, the fact
>>is that we are in control of our own behavior (a lesson that religion
>>teaches us; another positive attribute that Scouting is attempting to
>>enforce), and Scouting expects it members to conform to the positive
>>moral standards that our society has established.
> 
>However, we as species??? Who ever showed that? Quite the contrary, 
>there has been shown that there are no established set of morality. 
>To give a few examples, the Dobe !Kung beleive that homosexuality is
>perfectly natural (see Lee's ethnography on the Dobe !Kung).  The 
>Yanamamo beleive that if the population is too high, to practice 
>infanticide is the Morally COrrect thing to do. (see Chagnon...
>"Yanamaom, the Fierce People) DO you agree with these morals Stan?
>Yes, we control our own behavior, please control yours.  Our 
>"society" as you put it is quite at a mix as to your moral 
>standard in this issue of homosexuality.  A President was just 
>elected who has stated he supports gay rights and gays in the 
>military, in Oregon a bill to declare homosexuality immoral and 
>illegal was failed, and in Colorado one limiting the rights 
>of lesbigays was passed.  It seems to me that this is not by 
>any means a decided issue.  Stop treating it like it is.  
>These are your opinions based on your religious beliefs and
>your "morals." they are different from mine and as a scout
>you need to learn respect for that difference.  If you can 
>not show others respcet, you do not deserve it.  And as 
>such, you are not a good scouter if you can not respcet and
>be respected.  

%Fine, so join one of those societies where your behavior will be
%accepted.  In our society, it is immoral.

Excuse me, I was pointing out here that your PREMISE is invalid!
I enjoy my cultures (note plural) that I am affiliated with and 
belong in.  It is immoral to you.  Stop talking about our society.  
They are different.  Use the proper terminology and learn about 
what "society" is in reality.  You obviously don't know.  

>For those others reading this, I apologise for my outburst, but as
>a survivor of child abuse I am offended and outraged at this 
>libelous post of Stan's.  I ask that if this continues that 
>this group become regulated.  and to Danny, what would that 
>entail.  
>
>I will not be insulted by someone who has less of a right to wear
>a scout uniform than I.  

%As a Scout Leader, I live by the Scout Oath and Law, and I encourage
%the boys to do the same.  I don't teach hatred or exclusion of anybody.
%But if a person is going to be involved in Scouting, they are expected
%to live by the Oath and Law and definitely not violate it with flagrant
%immoral sexual behavior.

As do I.  live by the Scout Oath, Law, Motto, Outdoor Code, and by a 
wonderful saying "love thy neighbor and do no harm."  ANd so I encourage
others to do.  However, you do teach hatred and exclusion.  The fact that 
you are so blind to it is outrageous!  
To talk about immoral sexual behavior is innane for you to do.  No one
that I have seen has disagreed that sex has no place at Scouting events.  
However, what I do at home, or even in public, is no buisness of yours
or anyone elses except my partner.  What to you is immoral is not to 
others.  What to me is not moral in my moral structure is to others.  
Stop forcing YOUR RELIGION DOWN MY THROAT! I will not put up with it. 

For those on the net who've read this far, it is because of this 
type of attitude that I become so vehement at times.  Becuase this
attitude has resulted in the suicide attempts and completions of 
God only knows how many people who feel they have been persecuted 
in a like manner by their parents and friends.  Becuase of this 
type of attitude, funding for AIDS research has been stymied and 
delayed in this country for years.  Becuase of this attude, 
attitude, people I know and love have DIED without the love 
of their families in very painful and agonizing ways due to 
AIDS.  Becuase of this attitude I spent over a half hour with a friend
who had gotten drunk becuase his parents couldn't find it in them to accpet
their own child.  
Your damn right I det emotional on this.  Because that is what it is,
emotion.  acceptance and living and emoting.  

Stan, you are a bigot and you are oppressing my culture, and I for 
one will not put up with it.  You have made the statement that 
people who accept homosexuality are child abusers.  If you can not prove 
this with substantial backing, apologise and go away.  You can't do it,
that's why you won't.  DO NOT send me email.  deal with me here in 
public or not at all.  I probably won't even be bothering with you 
anymore anyway.  There are people who need me, and I'd rather be helping 
them than fighting your stupidity and ignorance and hate and bigotry. 


%Look, I don't buy into the argument that you're a minority group.  I
%feel you've made your choice of lifestyle, and it's one that abhorent
%to our society.

It's abhorrent to you, not to me or my friends.  Stop trying to use 
"society" becuase some parts of society accpet it, and others don't/

%Stan
Now this all may be an unfair character judgement, but with the 
information I have I do not feel it is one.  
Stan, your bigotry and prejudice and hatefullness have no place in 
this world.  especially not it scouting.  

As an aside, how long have you been involved in scouting Stan?  
All your life?  a few years?  hmmm?  For me it's been
all my life as far back as I can remember.  I am a product
of the BSA, and I'm GAY!  If you don't like it, leave. 


****************************************************************
*  Dominick V. Zurlo              *    "If the world's an      *
*  WWW                            *    oyster, why am I        *
*  Eagle Scout '87                *    allergic to Mollusks?"  *
*  blacklisted '88                *                            *
****************************************************************

these opinions are mine alone, and no one else's unless they 
agree with me.