HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Daniel Ammon <beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!CS.Stanford.EDU!ammon>
Subject: tribal govts (was: NAVAJO OLD GROWTH FOREST TO BE CUT)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 07:57:45 GMT

Original-Sender: Daniel Ammon <CS.Stanford.EDU!ammon>

>Original-Sender: titan.ucc.umass.edu!derrico (Peter d'Errico)
>
>I do not consider the US-imposed system of "tribal government" to be
>the "people's government." The "tribal government" system is
>essentially a puppet.

How about "tribal government" systems that are based on the "ancient
ways" and were adopted according to the laws of the ancient ways?

How about a current tribal government system not based on tradition, but
yet is still the system that the people want?

>(The discussion of "blood quantum" and "tribal
>membership" shows other aspects of this puppetry, with ancient ways
>being subordinated to the imposed ways; but that's another
>discussion....)

I think the tribal membership issue is fundamental to the question
of "What is a tribe?".

>> Are you asserting that the Navajo Nation and Mescaleros do not have
>> a representative governing body, and these people also have no power
>> to elect new leaders?
>
>That's about it. I also assert that the "elective system" is part of
>the baggage imposed on the Navajo and Mescalero peoples during the
>last century.

This is the crux of the whole conversation to me.  How does a person
know if the current tribal govt is the "real governing body" or an
unrepresentative farce?

Just curious... do you represent any tribes in legal matters?  If
so, do you acknowledge and work with their tribal government?

danny ammon
ammon@cs.stanford.edu
From: kirby@pyramid.unr.edu (Stephen Kirby)
Newsgroups: alt.native
Subject: Indian Gathering Near Reno, NV
Summary: Indian Gathering
Date: 17 Aug 92 10:01:51 GMT
Expires: 30 Aug 92 23:00:00 GMT
Reply-To: kirby@pyramid.unr.edu (Stephen Kirby)
Followup-To: alt.native
Organization: University of Nevada, Reno  Department of Computer Science

There will be an indian gathering taking place just North of Reno, NV
during the last week of August. August 23 through August 29.
Everyone is encouraged to atttend.  If you would like more 
information please call or write:

Leading Fighter Indian Center
52 Colony Road
Reno, NV 89502
(702) 322-1295
FAX (702) 927-4505

Or e-mail me. I will however be off the net from Aug. 17 to Aug 23.

Thanks,

Stephen Kirby
Newsgroups: alt.native
From: Alan McGowen <beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!hpindbu.cup.hp.com!alanm>
Subject: Re: Environment and native issues
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 20:03:05 GMT

Original-Sender: Alan McGowen <hpindbu.cup.hp.com!alanm>

[This is part of a discussion on what Alan sees as a tendency to seek
high-tech solutions to environmental problems, thus producing yet more
problems.  I had asked for more focus of the discussion on Native issues.
--mkk]

OK, I'll give a specific application of this general point that should bring
it back to the theme of NatChat. The Brazilian govt, as a response in part
to its international debt situtation and in part to internal forces, has
unleashed large numbers of gold miners on the Amazon. The miners pan for
gold in river silt, extracting it with mercury. The mercury enters into
the riverene food chain and winds up in fish, which are eaten by native
Amazonians. Even if the Brazilian govt wished to "recall" all the miners
it probably could not do so at this point. There are too many of them, and
they are all over the place.

The solution? According to the techno-trick logic, it is more development
in the Amazon. Electrify the jungle with large dams and there will soon
be less poverty. The miners will then use less "dirty" methods. Besides,
the fish could then be farmed artificially, isolating them from pollution
sources.

I leave it to the reader's imagination to find a way to get the expensively
farmed fish back into the diet of the native Amazonians. Somehow I think
that if the natural economy of the forest is replaced with an artificial
economy the cultures which developed in the natural economy are not exactly
going to flourish in the new order.

------------
Alan McGowen
From: root@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (root)
Newsgroups: alt.native
Subject: Re: New Indian-Tribe Policy Set by Federal Bureau
Date: 9 Aug 92 18:48:19 GMT
Organization: NCR Engineering and Manufacturing Atlanta -- Atlanta, GA
Old-Message-ID: <9208091907.AA28907@BU.EDU>

Original-Sender: CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU!UKANVM.bitnet!PSHEMITZ

Re:  Indians and Environmentalists

It is sadly true that many environmentalists are eager to appropriate the image
of the indigenous "intuitive environmentalist."

A case in point is the renowned letter by Chief Seattle in 1854 in which he al-
ledgedly wrote to President Pierce "the earth is our mother...I have seen a tho
usand rotting buffaloes on the prairies left by the white man who shot them
from a passing train."

Unfortunately there were no bison w/in 600 miles of Puget Sound, and the letter
dates 15 years earlier than the first railroad of the area.

Historians have tracked this sentiment to a 1971 film on ecology called "Home".

While I applaud the sentiment of horror about the ecocide and genocides of the
expansions of (my) European peoples it is unconscionable to manipulate images
that play into a "noble savage" stereotype.

Nevertheless, I do believe that there is room for alliance b/n Whites and Indi-
ans on the environmental issues.  Environmentalism is moving towards activism
on issues that effect poor and rural peoples-- env. justice.  Its not my place
to assert that Indians should identify with this movement, it may not serve the
interests of individual people or tribes;  however environmentalists are seek-
ing ways outside the mental box of Progress and cultural pluralism is an attrac
tive path.

PLEASE THINK OF FUTURE GENERATIONS:  PRESERVE THE ENVIRONMENT!

PETE SHEMITZ, DEPT. OF HISTORY, UNIVERSITY OF KANSAS-LAWRENCE
PSHEMITZ@UKANVM.BITNET
-- 
=============================================================================
Gordon Edwards, N4VPH              | Postmaster@AtlantaGA.NCR.COM
NCR Engineering & Manufacturing    |
Atlanta, Georgia  USA              | Voice Plus: 751-7015  AT&T: 404-623-7015
From: pete <beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU!UKANVM.bitnet!PSHEMITZ>
Subject: Re: Environment and native issues
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 04:14:40 GMT

Original-Sender: pete <CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU!UKANVM.bitnet!PSHEMITZ>

Peshewegunzh made an important point when he objected to Alan's description of
Native American religions as part of the "religious right."

Although many right wingers come from a Christian background, religions are not
the handmaiden of conservative politicians.

Quite the contrary, many religious people and their concerns are arrayed on the
left.  (By the way, these terms originated from where social critics and conser
vatives sat in the French legistlature following the 1789 revolution.)  Indeed,
it seems as if modern environmentalism, allied with various liberal and evang-
elical sectarians, are engaged in a holy war with the right.  The biocentric
orientation of the more radical enviros goes well beyond political and econom-
ic ideologies and into philosophy, and ethics-- our relationships with the
great antinomies (the unanswerable mysteries) of our mother earth.

The right wing's denigration of the env. movement is therefore a predictable
response of the champions of the western world's dominant worldview-- rational
capitalism.

I know far too little about Native American religious belief and ritual, but
what i do understand agrees with Peshewegunzh's idea that it is neither left
nor right, but something apart.

Where does this leave us?

We have a situation where people are choosing sides, or asserting that they
want nothing to do with this ethical quarrel.  That may indeed be the wisest
course of action, after all a second meaning of the word "quarrel" is a bolt
from a crossbow-- why get dragged into a war that's not your own?

Also, there are no ideological truths, just fictions with footnotes-- fantasies
which are intelligntly, and creatively given weight and power.

I would like to see this discussion move towards examining how 1) this war may
be turned to the native peoples' advantages (the history of the Haudenoshonee
for 200 years shows that white intramural conflict is good for tribal power); &
2) look at religion critically.  what are its dimensions in North American life
religion can teach us respect, the inter/dependency of life and spirit on this
planet, the reciprocity that keeps Society in balance.

yours, pds

PLEASE THINK OF FUTURE GENERATIONS:  PRESERVE THE ENVIRONMENT!

PETE SHEMITZ, DEPT. OF HISTORY, UNIVERSITY OF KANSAS-LAWRENCE
PSHEMITZ@UKANVM.BITNET

Newsgroups: alt.native
From: dadams@cray.com (David Adams)
Subject: politics
Reply-To: dadams@cray.com
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 21 Aug 92 13:10:34 CDT



I have this idea about something Bush ought to add to his agenda:
(what do you think?)

He ought to say:

"I will eliminate the Beauro of Indian Afairs, thus reducing your taxes!
	-Tribal governments are capable of self government!
	-To the list of Nations that have made their move to freedom
	 durring the Bush years I will add the Iriquois, the Chippewa,
	 the Navajo, the ...
	-Will encourage state governments to assign legislative districts
	 to reservations."

I would think he could get alot of miles out of a stand like that?
(This could be listed among a long list of Federal agencies which ought 
to be headed for the chopping block, like the BLM, or greatly resized
and restricted, like the IRS...)


---
--David C. Adams  Statistician  Cray Research Inc.  dadams@cray.com
___________________________________________________________________
       member--Minnesotans for Global Warming.

Newsgroups: alt.native
From: pete shemitz <beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU!UKANVM.bitnet!PSHEMITZ>
Subject: Re: Environment and native issues
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 17:10:08 GMT

Original-Sender: pete shemitz <CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU!UKANVM.bitnet!PSHEMITZ>

allen and everybody,

i had to respond to the discussion of gold mining in brazil and the environ-
ment.

      It is true that gold mining is very deleterious to the environment (phys-
ical and social) in terms of arsenic and mercury toxic contamination, the upset
of the hydrological cycle-- from in just one instance building sluice gates
and/or using high-pressure pumps to wash away hillsides to get to the lodes or
pockets,-- noise pollution, deforestation to provide for structural support and
living quarters;  and the dislocation in social relationships that seems to be
the norm in boom communities is the direct effect of people being thrown off
their lands.

     However, i thoroughly doubt that the brazilian government has thrown
people into the amazon to mine gold, to strengthen their economy.  It is far
more probable that poor people have seen a remote chance to get out of their
debt-ridden lives and make it economically.  The miners probably have received
little or no government encouragement.  Quite the opposite-- there are some
programs (however inadequate) to keep miners _off_ native lands.

There are no Nation/State governments that will use their tremendouspolice po-
wers to restrain their citizens from ripping off Indian peoples, and that
should be one issue that we can focus upon within this board-- the relationship
between State coercive power and natural resource development in local commun-
ities.  As mining is perhaps the most localized industrial/extractive activity
it provides an important issue:  how does mining affect rural communities and
peoples?  what is the social effect of mining?

I think it is probable that Allen was getting to this point, but i was distract
ed by his indictment of the individual miners (or mine operators, the distinct-
ion wasn't clear to me.)

thanks....pds

PLEASE THINK OF FUTURE GENERATIONS:  PRESERVE THE ENVIRONMENT!

PETE SHEMITZ, DEPT. OF HISTORY, UNIVERSITY OF KANSAS-LAWRENCE
PSHEMITZ@UKANVM.BITNET

Newsgroups: alt.native
From: Carlos Rodriguez <beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!cunixf.cc.columbia.edu!cr11>
Subject: Re: NAVAJO OLD GROWTH FOREST TO BE CUT
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 13:59:26 GMT

Original-Sender: Carlos Rodriguez <cunixf.cc.columbia.edu!cr11>

Peter,

I agree with most of what you have said except for the election issue.
Amung the Navajo, the election process has been a very strong weopon
against the white government.  From its inception, the people have been
able to frustrate many of the US projects.  Most of the Chairmen that
have been elected were not the choice of the US.  In fact the first of
the Navajo Tribal Chairmen was none other than Manuelito himself.  If
you know anything about the People's history, you will know that
Manuelito
was one of the strong war chiefs who fought Kit Carson to a stand
still.
As Chairman for the People, he was still a strong opponant.  He
also experimented with the ways of the whites, taking what was
good for the People and digarding the rest.

True that there have been some Chairmen that have sucombed to the
whiteman's money ( Peter MacDonald comes to mind), but in the
case of the People, the good outwieghs the bad.  The current
Chairman, Mr. Peterson Zah is an example of a leader that is
truely a people's Chairman.  His platform and policies are
"the Navajo first".  He has done much to improve the Navajo
standard of life and at the same time; he has created programs
to teach the tribal youth about their culture and traditions and
language.

It is important to remember that the Navajo never had a central
chief, any chief that they did have was "elected by ALL of the
clans.".  For the most part each area had its own leader.
Now a days, the chapter house is the main political stronghold,
it is here where you will find the true government of the Navajo.
If the chairman does not listen to the needs of the chapterhouses, then
he is booted out of office.  The Navajo have always been proud of
their independence and they have made a strong showing of it.
In this respect they are different from most of the other nations.

Walk in beauty,

Carlos Nakai (no not that Nakai) Rodriguez
From: moisan@cicb.fr (Herve Moisan -  stagiaire CICB)
Newsgroups: alt.native
Subject: do Native people speak their language?
Date: 13 Aug 92 07:17:35 GMT
Organization: CICB, Universite' de Rennes I, FR


I would like to know if Native people speak their own language, or
english like others americans ?

Thank you
Newsgroups: alt.native
From: Alan McGowen <beaver.cs.washington.edu!gnosys!hpindbu.cup.hp.com!alanm>
Subject: Re: Environment and native issues
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 20:15:45 GMT

Original-Sender: Alan McGowen <hpindbu.cup.hp.com!alanm>

>
> Original-Sender: pete <CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU!UKANVM.bitnet!PSHEMITZ>
>
> Peshewegunzh made an important point when he objected to Alan's description of
> Native American religions as part of the "religious right."
>

I did not characterize native american religions as part of the religious
right. The context was:


        ... if doctrines of the religious right are masquerading as a
        desire to protect native Americans from untoward "European"
        alliances with things like environmentalism, it should certainly
        be open for discussion in this forum as to whether that may not
        itself be such an untoward alliance. At the very least it should
        be possible for the question to come out if those are really the
        forces that are at play. After all, the religious right is opposed
        to environmentalism for reasons which have nothing at all to do
        with the protection of indigenous rights.

------------
Alan McGowen



Newsgroups: alt.native
From: brians@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU (Brian J Smith)
Subject: Suzuki's Wisdom of the Elders
Summary: Response to...?
Keywords: Suzuki, Elders
Organization: Sydney University Computing Service, Sydney, NSW, Australia
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 09:46:26 GMT

I was just producing a special insert to OMNI magazine here in Australia which
talks about Dr. Suzuki's new book, Wisdom of the Elders in which he espouses a
new respect for the environment that we can learn from indigenous peoples all
around the world. 

I was wondering what the general reviews to this book have been in the native
press and the other discussion groups in other countries. I am not sure how
well received it has been here in Australia yet, though have heard some
rumours that some of the Australian aboriginal people are a bit suspicious of
this "return to neo-tribalism" as one person called it. Hmmm/.

eMail me if you're interested..

thnks

Brian Smith
Sydney, Australia

brians@extro.ucc.su.oz.au
From: Linda.Proulx@mailbox.bison.mb.ca (Linda Proulx)
Newsgroups: alt.native
Subject: U.S. Baha'is Appeal For
Date: 15 Aug 92  15:13:00 CST

Greetings!

Can I assume that you're a Baha'i?  Native?

Talk to you anon.

Linda

 * SLMR 2.1a * My programming way: "Try 'n' Reboot!"

 * Origin: Tech Talk Toll (204)269-7373  DUAL BINK/MAX/SQU/OS2 (1:348/2)
From: root@ncratl.AtlantaGA.NCR.COM (root)
Newsgroups: alt.native
Subject: Re: Blood Quantum (Re: Roots)
Date: 10 Aug 92 14:38:34 GMT
Organization: NCR Engineering and Manufacturing Atlanta -- Atlanta, GA
Old-Message-ID: <15102303@um.cc.umich.edu>

Original-Sender: um.cc.umich.edu!Tristine.Lee.Smart

 Babs Woods requested information about the blood quantum
 requirement for the Eastern Band of Cherokee.

 I happen to have a copy of the January 29, 1992 issue of the Cherokee
 One Feather (Vol. 26, No. 5).  At that time, the Tribal Council
 was considering a change in the blood quantum requirement from
 1/16 to 1/32.  I do not know what has happened since that date.

 The regulations for people who are members or are eligible for
 membership in the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians as of 1/14/92
 were published on page 4 of that issue of the Cherokee One Feather:

         1. Persons whose names appeared on the roll prepared
      in accordance with the 1924 and 1931 Acts.
         2. Persons born between June 4, 1924 and August 21, 1957
      who: are direct descendants of persons appearing on the
      prior roll, applied for membership on of [sic] after
      August 14, 1963, and possess 1/32 degree of Eastern Cherokee
      Indian blood.
         3. Persons born between June 4, 1924 and August 21, 1957
      who: are direct descendants of persons appearing on the
      prior roll, applied for membership on or after August 14, 1963,
      and possess 1/16 degree of Eastern Cherokee Indian blood.
         4. Persons born after August 21, 1957, who: were enrolled
      prior to August 14, 1963 and posses 1/32 degree Eastern Cherokee
      Indian blood.
         5. Persons born after August 21, 1957 who: did not apply
      for enrollment until after August 14, 1963 and possess 1/16
      degree of Eastern Cherokee Indian blood.

 You could probably obtain more information by contacting the staff
 of the Cherokee One Feather.  Here is the address and phone number:

               The Cherokee One Feather
               P.O. Box 501
               Cherokee, NC 28719
               (704) 497-5513
               Richard Welch- editor


 Tristine Lee Smart
 Museum of Anthropology
 University of Michigan
 USERGDLP@UMICHUM.BITNET
-- 
=============================================================================
Gordon Edwards, N4VPH              | Postmaster@AtlantaGA.NCR.COM
NCR Engineering & Manufacturing    |
Atlanta, Georgia  USA              | Voice Plus: 751-7015  AT&T: 404-623-7015
Newsgroups: alt.native
Subject: Re: Question regarding a film
From: pkalar@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
Date: 17 Aug 92 01:21:54 -0600
Reply-To: pkalar@TIGGER.STCLOUD.MSUS.EDU
Organization: St. Cloud State University, St. Cloud, MN

>	I have seen a film which called "Where The Spirit Lives" a while
>ago.  I wanted to find it, but I couldn't (and I have been told it is
>no longer in distribution).  It could easily be one of the best Native
>American films I have ever seen.  Does anyone know what happened to it?
>and... if possible, where can I find/buy a copy of this film?
>
Kelvin,
I agree with you, a very good film. I've seen it on TV but have
not  tried to locate it. Here, though, is some bibliographic
data that may help you to track it down. You may consider writing
to the CBC, they have been helpful to me in the past.

TITLE:     Where the spirit lives [videorecording] / produced by Amazing
              Spirit Productions, Ltd. in association with the Canadian
              Broadcasting Corporation, TV Ontario, & Mid-Canada Television
              ; producers, Heather Goldin, Eric Jordan, Mary Young Leckie
              ; director, Bruce Pittman ; writer, Keith Ross Leckie.
PUBLISHER: New York, NY : Studio Entertainment, 1989.
DESCRIPTN: 1 videocassette (98 min.) : sd., col. ; 1/2 in.
PERFORMER: Michelle St. John, Ann-Marie MacDonald, David Hemblen, Ron White.
SUMMARY:   Indian children in western Canada are taken from their homes
              by trickery, put in mission schools, and brutally forced
              to learn non-Indian ways.

Good luck!
From: mcmahan@cs.unca.edu (Scott McMahan -- Genesis mailing list owner)
Newsgroups: alt.internet.services
Subject: Re: gif file scrambling
Date: 13 Aug 92 22:30:54 GMT
Distribution: alt
Organization: University of North Carolina at Asheville
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3

Why not ask in one of the graphics groups!?

This is *not* alt.internet.new-users!

If you encounter this problem:

1) make sure all the parts were concatenated back together in the
*right* order

and

2) you transfered files in *binary* mode.

Both of these will produce the errors you describe.

Scott
From: ficara@remus.rutgers.edu (Ken Ficara)
Newsgroups: alt.internet.services
Subject: Re: GEnie/Internet gateway?
Date: 15 Aug 92 19:21:59 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

I'm very happy to see that most people here seem to see GEnie's
pricing for what it is -- maybe those of us who are on GEnie should
brave the b.s. on the GEnieus board and go back in to make the case --
because the 'newbies' there are going to be the real victims there.
I've abandoned the discussion there and maybe I should pick it up
again after I get back from Chicago.
Newsgroups: alt.internet.services
From: adamg@eff.org (Adam Gaffin)
Subject: online economic data
Originator: adamg@eff.org
Keywords: New England Federal Reserve economics
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 00:29:09 GMT

The Federal Reserve Bank of Boston and the University of Maine have 
run a BBS for a couple of years to disseminate all sorts of economic 
data. Now most of the files from this New England Economic Data Center 
are available through anonymous FTP at neeedc.umesbs.maine.edu (note 
the three e's in "neeedc") 
 
They cover everything from unemployment to housing to energy 
statistics going back to 1969, and are updated monthly. As you might 
expect, they tend to focus on the New England states and cities, but 
most of the files also have a column for nationwide numbers.  Almost 
all the files can be imported into a spreadsheet (they provide simple
directions for Lotus and Quattro).
 
The ftp site also has gross state product data from the Bureau of 
Economic Analysis.  Unfortunately, one thing not on the ftp site, at 
least not yet, is the Commerce Department's National Trade Database. 
To see that, you'll have to dial into the original BBS:  (207) 581-
1867.




-- 
Adam Gaffin
adamg@eff.org     Voice: (508) 626-3968
Putting the Internet on paper!
From: de5@ORNL.GOV (Dave Sill)
Newsgroups: alt.internet.services
Subject: Free-Net
Date: 20 Aug 92 19:20:55 GMT
Organization: Oak Ridge National Laboratory

I've applied for an account on the Cleveland Free-Net.  Until it's activated, I
can browse as a guest.  In my browsings, I've seen no way to contact the
administrators electronically.  Anyone know their e-mail addresses?  Also, I'd
like to print off some documentation on the Free-Net software.  Is it available
by anonymous FTP somewhere?

-- 
Dave Sill (de5@ornl.gov)           For every Bill Joy there is a Kirk McKusick.
Martin Marietta Energy Systems     For every Bill Gates there is a Richard
Workstation Support                Stallman.                     --Paul Graham
Newsgroups: alt.internet.services