HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: Davis Mechanics (was Re: John Woods Campbell)
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 21:42:49 GMT

In article <18342@bcars664.bnr.ca> Henry.Troup@BNR.CA writes:
>|>But the statement you just made about objects isn't true.  Action and
>reaction
>|>happen simultaneously; or rather, action and reaction happen at any point
>|>simultaneously.
>This is one I can't figure out.  Consider a steel bar, in free space, a
>long way from anywhere, one light-year long.  place a large rocket
>against one end, and turn it on.  Let it run for 364 days.  Turn it off.
>What has happened?  Try it again with an incompressible rod - if the rod
>moves, the message reached the far end faster than light.  If the rod
>doesn't move, where'd the momentum go?

You can't make an incompressible rod, precisely for this reason.

Thought experiments allow us to assume things that get around real-world
engineering limitations, but not to make assumptions which are equivalent to
violations of physics; in this case, an incompressible rod is one.

So the rocket-powered end is moving and the other isn't.  The local motion of
the matter that is at any moment located in the propagating wave is associated
with momentum, and this momentum remains the same as the wave progresses.
--
"On the first day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Leftover Turkey!
On the second day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Turkey Casserole
    that she made from Leftover Turkey.
[days 3-4 deleted] ...  Flaming Turkey Wings! ...
   -- Pizza Hut commercial (and M*tlu/A*gic bait)

Ken Arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu, arromdee@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu)
From: DAB@MATH.AMS.ORG (Alison Buckser)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Yvgenie
Date: 8 Jan 93 18:42:14 GMT


I've just read C.J.Cherryh's new novel Yvgenie. As usual with her books, I 
thought it was wonderfully written and the characters fascinating. But,
like the other 2 books in this series, at the end of the story I wasn't
too sure what happened. Could someone help me?

*Spoilers* 
Why did Misighi and the others die? Why were they feeding Chernoveg?
Was there some other threat to the forest besides Chernoveg? Did
Chernoveg leave Yvgenie at the end? Why did Ulamets want another wizard
and not Pyeter? What happened when Sasha wished?

Sigh. I feel like an idiot not being able to figure these things out.
I love Cherryh's books but sometimes I do get lost. Any help would be 
greatly appreciated. 

Thank you very much.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony: Victim of his own success?
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 03:07:52 GMT

chuahl@ocf.berkeley.edu (Chua HakLien):
>Has anyone read any of Pier's Anthony novels which aren't part of a
>series, like _Firefly_ or _Ghost_? ...

The early isolated works represent Anthony at his best and worst.
"Macroscope" is one of his best books, and "Prostho Plus", "Triple
Detente", and Steppe are enjoyable light-weights.  This was also, however, 
the period in which he wrote some truly wretched books that he was unable
to sell -- until his later success enabled him to sell them on the
basis of his name, rather than his writing.  These include Ghost and
(probably worst of the canon) Mercycle.

-----
Dani Zweig
dani@netcom.com

   'T is with our judgements as our watches, none
   Go alike, yet each believes his own
		--Alexander Pope

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: williams@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Kent Williams)
Subject: Re: Who killed SF???
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 22:25:18 GMT
Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA

From article <SteveWall-080193104527@hipmac1.pica.army.mil>, by SteveWall@aol.com (Steve Wall):
> In article <1993Jan7.191415.9908@news.uiowa.edu>,
> 
> I think part of your problem is the subjective nature of memory.  We all
> tend
> to complain that things were better "in the good old days", because we all
> remember the good times (or books in this case) better than the bad. 
> There's
> always been lots of pulp SF & Fantasy, just as there's always been a lot of
> violence in society.  It's just that the violent crimes of yesteryear are
> mostly forgotten as historically insignificant, while today's are still
> fresh
> in memory.  The same principals apply to SF & Fantasy.  I'm trying to
> remember
> a really bad SF writer of the old days, but (as expected) I can't remember
> one offhand.  Perhaps someone could contribute their favorite 'better off
> dead' writers?
> 
> Steve Wall  

Well you used to have walls full of Conan and Doc Savage enough to make you
hurl in most books stores.  But you didn't have the incredible marketing
of dreck fantasy.  Fantasy used to be Mervyn Peake (who's books I loved),
H.P. Lovecraft and Lord Dunsany reprints, and Tolkein.  Period.  Not some
third rate faker like Robert Asprin.
--
Kent Williams -- williams@cs.uiowa.edu Work(335-4496) Home(338-6053)
"You, Varlet! Why so blithe?" -- from "Shreck" by William Steig


Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian)
Subject: Re: Who killed SF???
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 00:56:02 GMT

A prominent SF editor told me a couple of years ago how book jobbers (the
guys who choose the books to put on rack in better bus stations everywhere)
choose their materials. They take the current batch of books, lean them up
again a shelf, and step back across the room. If they can make out the title
from a distance of 10 or 15 feet, they take the book. If they can't, they
don't.

That's why so many books these days have lurid covers.


--
Crawford Kilian   Communications Department   Capilano College
North Vancouver BC Canada V7J 3H5
Usenet: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca
Internet: ckilian@first.etc.bc.ca

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.books
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: SF + PC
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 22:31:12 GMT

In article <1icqfqINN8jg@agate.berkeley.edu> oliver@madrone.CS.Berkeley.EDU (Oliver Sharp) writes:
>I'm curious.  So far, nobody I've seen has spoken up in favor of guided 
>reading.

Sorry--it's an oversight on my part. I think it's good to allow yourself
to be trained by another, even when the training is in the analysis and
appreciation of literature. I think the odds are reasonably high that
putting one's training in the hands of someone more knowledgeable will pay
off, even if one ultimately develops tastes and values different from
those of the teacher.


--Mike




-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution
mnemonic@eff.org| The only one that's coming."
(617) 864-0665  |                           
EFF, Cambridge  |                   --Robert Frost 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: dstein@oak.math.ucla.edu (David Stein)
Subject: Re: John Woods Campbell
Organization: UCLA Mathematics Department
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 93 09:17:23 GMT

Jim Mann writes:
 
>Hmm. Since you just quote me without showing how much of your
>post I quoted, I can't tell what you mean here.

  I simply meant that you shifted my argument with Raymond into 
an argument I did not take up.

  And you are doing so again below.

[When I complained no one offers specifics:]
>I think the reason is that you've taken a stance that is so
>at odds with all the major critics and historians of the field

  NO.  I took no such stance.

>(including some like Aldiss who in no way were "Campbell writers"),
>that it seems you haven't done your homework.  It seems that
>if you make a statement that is so at odds with the overwhelming
>opinion of those who have studied the field in detail, that 
>it is up to you to refute the fact that he was a major
>force in the field.

  Quote the statement.

 - David

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm not a native speaker of English, so I'm not sure what I wrote.
Flames will be ignored unless you post them in perfect Czech.
================================ - David (the metamathician) - ===
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: davidl@ssd.intel.com (David Levine)
Subject: Re: George RR Martin
Organization: Supercomputer Systems Division (SSD), Intel
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 19:14:53 GMT

In article <1993Jan7.165935.13580@julian.uwo.ca> jdnicoll@prism.ccs.uwo.ca (James Davis Nicoll) writes:
>Industrially-produced  fiction is  clearly a better  investment for
>publishers  than fiction  produced  with the  same  pre-industrial
>techniques  obsolete  writers  like Dumas  or  Poe used.

Great idea, bad example.  Dumas is one pre-industrial writer who used
modern writing techniques -- not mass production, but contract labor.  Most
of "Dumas'" tremendous output was produced by anonymous writers working for
hire under Dumas' name.  We'll never know for sure which works were really
Dumas'.  However, I loved the post; it was dead on the money.

- David D. Levine, Intel Supercomputer Systems Division == davidl@ssd.intel.com
  "'This isn't Heaven,' said Grandpa Stupid.  'This is Cleveland.'"
From: chuq@Apple.COM (Crow's Friend Timmy)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Who killed SF???
Date: 8 Jan 93 06:29:56 GMT
Organization: Next Thursday A.D.

mgrossman@hamp.hampshire.edu writes:

>	Verily, by their initials shall ye know them...TSR...TSR...TSR

TSR puts out three books a month, in a field that publishes 1,100 titles a
year or more. You can't exactly call them a major force in the market.

-- 
            Chuq "IMHO" Von Rospach, ESD Support & Training (DAL/AUX)
                      Member, SFWA =+= Editor, OtherRealms
                chuq@apple.com | GEnie: MAC.BIGOT | ALink:CHUQ 

          I'm history! No! I'm mythology! Whatever, I'm outta here!
From: lmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Laurie Mann)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Probably false rumor
Date: 5 Jan 93 15:48:33 GMT
Reply-To: lmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com
Organization: Stratus Computer Inc, Marlboro MA
NNTP-Posting-Host: ansible.pubs.stratus.com

Marty Helgesen writes
>Someone I know slightly at work told me that someone had told him
>that Chip Delaney had died a while ago.  I doubt it very much.  I
>don't read LOCUS, but Delaney is big enough that I would expect to
>have seen some mention of it if it were true.  Can someone confirm
>from positive knowledge, rather than just the improbability of the
>report as I heard it, that he is still alive?

Hmmm....

Chip is VERY bad about answering his mail...

I haven't seen this rumor on either GEnie or AmericaOnline.
GEnie tends to get rumors literally minutes after someone
hears them.

Suggestion for the future---it might be good to E-mail rumors
like this one to a few individuals, rather than post them.  
Plenty of folks have trouble distinguishing between "truth" 
and "rumor," even though you've clearly distinguished between the two.
(Hmm, I wonder if you're rumor will be stated as fact on
GEnie tonight, based on someone reading it here... ;->)

*  In Germany they first came for the Communists, and I didn't speak *
*  because I wasn't a Communist.  Then they came for the Jews, and I *
*  didn't speak because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade *
* unionists, and I didn't speak because I wasn't a trade unionist... *
*Then they came for me--and by that time no one was left to speak up.*
*  Rev. Martin Niemoeller     [Why to March on Washington in April]  *
From: ig25@fg70.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de (Thomas Koenig)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Heinlein - Politically correct?
Date: 8 Jan 1993 15:03:07 GMT
Organization: University of Karlsruhe, Germany
Reply-To: ig25@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de
NNTP-Posting-Host: fg70.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de

In article <1992Dec24.180756.24259@genie.slhs.udel.edu> nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Nancy Lebovitz) writes:

>I think it might be fair to say that Heinlein falls somewhere in the
>middle range on PCness, for whatever that's worth. I will say that there
>are some writers I used to like that I've stopped reading because I can
>no longer put up with the way they write about women (Anthony and 
>Zelazny), but Heinlein has managed to stay off the list.

My rule of the thumb is:  If you stay clear of anything involving
Lazarus Long, you'll be ok.

As far as PC goes:  Where are the women in Starship Troopers?  Were they
ALL unfit for infantry duty, so that not a single one could make it into
a base camp of 10000 recruits?  Sounds a bit suspect to me...

Also, try reading the "History and Moral Philosophy" lessons with a view
to current events in Yugoslavia, and tell me wether "ethnic cleansing"
would be justified under these principles.
-- 
Thomas Koenig, ig25@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de, ig25@dkauni2.bitnet
The joy of engineering is to find a straight line on a double logarithmic
diagram.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: dagolden@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (David Alexandre Golden)
Subject: Re: sf writers on tv (was Re: William Gibson's Most Famous Quote Ruined By Technology...
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 21:52:46 GMT

In article <JET.93Jan4170322@boxer.nas.nasa.gov> jet@boxer.nas.nasa.gov (J. Eric Townsend) writes:
>"elf" == Elf Sternberg <elf@halcyon.com> writes:
>
>elf>    You know what the color of television, tuned to a dead
>elf> channel, is in the future?
>
>elf>    Clear sky blue.
>
>Not always.  Even within a manu, the color isn't consistent.  My Sony
>27" ('bout 8 months old) goes to a *really* nice video black.  My Sony
>SLV-R5UC (S-VHS deck) goes to a color, but *you* get to choose which
>one: nice sky blue, far-too-bright-green, or really-amazing-hot-pink.

Given that, perhaps Gibson's sentence applies (in a roundabout way) afterall.
Rework it to "[Cyberspace] is the color of television..." and it makes
more sense.  Just like the TV, cyberspace may come factory programmed, but
we modify it to suit our own sense of perfection.

-- A study in vagueness by


-- 
David A. Golden '95           (dagolden@phoenix.princeton.edu)
Princeton University
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: jlpicard@austin.ibm.com (Craig Becker)
Subject: Re: Weird SF
Originator: jlpicard@woofer.austin.ibm.com
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 14:50:21 GMT
Reply-To: jlpicard@austin.ibm.com
Organization: IBM Object Technology Products


jorngh@dhhalden.no (JORN GUNNAR HALONEN) writes:
> 
> Title says it all, is there any 'weird' science fiction work
> like some of the stuff Philip K. Dick wrote ? I've read many
> of his books lately and now I'm seeking for other authors.

This might or might not light your fire, but check out some
of Rudy Rucker's stuff, like maybe _White Light_, _SpaceTime
Donuts_, _Software_, _Wetware_, _The Sex Sphere_, or _The 57th
Franz Kafka_ (a collection of short stories). Some of these
might be kinda hard to find, but they have sort of a "Dickian"
feel to them that you might enjoy.

Craig

-- 
-- "You will have the tallest,    Craig Becker, Object Technology Products --
--  darkest leading man in               Internet: jlpicard@austin.ibm.com --
--  Hollywood."                     IBM TR: jlpicard@woofer.austin.ibm.com --
--   - Merian C. Cooper to Fay Wray               VNET: JLPICARD at AUSVM1 --
From: mimir@hardy.u.washington.edu (Al Billings)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Covenant/LotR parallels?
Date: 13 Jan 93 02:42:49 GMT
Organization: The Friends of Loki Society
NNTP-Posting-Host: hardy.u.washington.edu

In article <C0qqIu.M3v@dcs.ed.ac.uk> Rob Vickery writes:
>
>which is the one thing that really irritates me about Michael Scott Rohan's
>trilogy (Anvil of the Ice, Forge of the Forest, Hammer of the Sun). I don't
>particularly mind authors retelling old legends, it's probably the only way
>the stories can stay alive, but to rip off a whole trilogy from the legends
>of Weyland Smith so blatantly and without any acknowledgement whatsoever
>really pisses me off. After all, apart from that the books are really not
>too bad (IMHO).

 I liked it myself. I get tired of reading pseudo-Celtic stuff all the
time or Arthurian rip-offs. I'm familiar with Norse sagas and mythology so
I thought it was great. I rate Rohan's triology as my all time favorite.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From: schumach@stortek.com (Kurt Schumacher)
Subject: Re: Covenant/LotR parallels? (Was Re: Ambe
Reply-To: schumach@stortek.com
Organization: Storage Technology Corp
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 16:10:17 GMT

If you would like to see some real parallels, try comparing LotR to the
great Norse saga The Niebelungenlied (apologies if it's misspelled).
Tolkien was clear heaily influenced by the Norse sagas.  (As were many
others.  I did a paper in high school comparing LotR with the libretto
from Wagner's Ring Cycle.  Got an A+ on it; wish I'd kept a copy.)
My feeling is that you have to go back a *long* way to find a truly
original story.

	Kurt
From: max@west.darkside.com (Erik Max Francis)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Arachnid aliens
Date: 11 Jan 93 19:39:07 GMT
Organization: The Dark Side of the Moon +1 408 245 SPAM

I've been toying with the idea of employing some intelligent, 
arachnid-like aliens in my works, and I'm wondering how closely this 
matches with the bad-guy arachnids in _Starship Troopers_ (that's right, 
isn't it?  I may be getting my references mixed up).  Anyhow, I don't 
want to sound like I'm copying something, so does anybody have 
information on the arachnids a la Heinlein?  Thanks.


  ____  Erik Max Francis -- ..!apple!uuwest!max -- max@west.darkside.com   __
  \  /  1070 Oakmont Dr. #1  San Jose, CA  95117  37 20 N 121 53 W  ACGT  /  \
   \/   Like strategic interstellar conquest games?  Ask about UNIVERSE!  \__/
        Omnia quia sunt, lumina sunt.   All things that are, are lights.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
From:  (David Ingham)
Subject: Re: Covenant/LotR parallels? (Was Re: Amber: )
Organization: Beer R Us
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 08:47:03 GMT
Followup-To: rec.arts.sf.written

In article <1705@blue.cis.pitt.edu>, seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp)
wrote:
> 
> In article <1993Jan11.090716.1677@lmpsbbs.comm.mot.com> (David Ingham) writes:
> >In article <1614@blue.cis.pitt.edu>, seawasp@vm2.cis.pitt.edu (Sea Wasp)
> >> Paradoxically, of course, Sauron who couldn't be directly attacked COULD be,
> >> and was, completely vanquished and destroyed, while Lord Foul could not
> >> ever be destroyed or defeated for all time.
> 
> >But he was, when Covenant died. :) 
> 
> 	I don't see any support for that at all. Foul was vanquished AGAIN,
> but for all time? I see no indication of that. He was weakened, like the 
> first time, to a vanishingly small power level, but Despite can't be
> killed off. Like Ahnold, "He'll be back". It may take him twenty thousand
> years, but he'll return. Of course, then he has the problem of Covenant
> sitting up there as a living keystone, but all THAT does is make it
> harder for Foul to escape. Not impossible...
>
I am working under the assumption that the Land is not real, that it's all
in Covenant's mind.  Since Foul is just Covenant's dark side, like the
Sundbane was Linden's, once Covenant was dead he no longer existed.  How do
you explain that Foul was vanquished in the last book just after Covenant
died without anyone touching him?

> 	As far as not liking the Gap... I've only read pieces of it,
> but what I've seen leads me to believe that he's created even more
> objectionable characters than the early Covenant, with less redeeming
> features. 
> 
> 				Sea Wasp
Hmm.  In the first 2 books there aren't many noble characters, but we do
get to see them in the third book.  What I enjoy most about the series so
far is the plot.  Just when you think you have it guessed and the bad guys
figured out completely, Donaldson turns it around 180 degrees.

*************************************************
* David Ingham  *   Place wacky signature here  *
*************************************************
From: chris_russo@gateway.qm.apple.com (Christopher Russo)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Piers Anthony: Victim of his own success?
Date: 12 Jan 93 18:18:10 GMT
Organization: Apple

In article <1993Jan11.171559.29298@athena.mit.edu> Ray Charbonneau, rcharbon@athena.mit.edu writes:

>WE are the victims of Piers Anthony's success.

I think he's probably just the victim of a traumatic head injury.

He was the first sf author that I read when I was in 7th grade.  I thought he
was great for a while.  Then, either my tastes matured, or he really started
to turn out the crap.  I'm not about to go back and reread his earlier stuff
to find out.


DUKE!!! GO DOWN HARD!!!!!!!!!!  GO TECH!!!!
-----Christopher Russo
----- I admire a clever .sig message.  Wish I had one. <sigh>
----- day 408.974.6070
From: aa396@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Bill Henley)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: THE MODULAR MAN? IS IT WORTH PICKING UP???
Date: 10 Jan 1993 00:14:53 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


Assuming you're talking about the novel by Roger Allen McBride-
when it first appeared as an ANALOG serial I didn't read it
because the premise sounded fairly silly (a man transfers his
consciousness into a robot vacuum cleaner?!?)  However, I
picked up the book edition when I needed reading material
for my summer vacation, and was pleasantly surprised-- it was
actually a pretty interesting and worthwhile book.  I would
say yes, it is worth picking up.
(Did I get the author's name sideways above?)

-- 
Bill Henley, Assistant Sysop, Cleveland Free-Net Science Fiction
& Fantasy SIG (aa396)
From: David.Dyer-bennet@f0.n607.z0.tdkt.kksys.com (David Dyer-bennet)
Sender: FredGate@tdkt.kksys.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Sf + Pc
Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1993 12:29:14 -0600

 DZ> Okay, so readers don't need and non-readers won't read.  Is there anyone
 DZ> who *does* benefit from the inclusion
 DZ> of books in the curriculum, or should
 DZ> the time be freed up for more useful activities?

Yes; the inclusion of reading in the curriculum makes the
preoccupation of readers more acceptable.  This is tremendously
important, since readers are inherently better people.

Um, :-), sort of.

Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,rec.arts.sf.movies
From: gre253@mis.csiro.au (Steven Green (+61 6 276 6813))
Subject: Re: Who killed SF???
Organization: CSIRO ITS
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 93 06:01:47 GMT

In article <1im3ss$fog@agate.berkeley.edu> curtis@cs.berkeley.edu (Curtis Yarvin) writes:
>In article <C0KrM4.2uJ@news.ucs.mun.ca> jfarrell@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (James Farrell) writes:
>>
>>How would you feel if in the end of a Sci-Fi movie like "Return of the
>>Jedi" Luke joined the Empire and wiped out the Alliance.
>>It would make for a stupid series.
>
>Au contraire, mon frere!  I find the idea simply delightful.  
>
>Luke Skywalker as a latter-day Hermann Goering, utterly corrupted in
>the flesh, hunting down his erstwhile comrades with the fury of a man
>who knows he is doing absolute evil and enjoys every last bit of it...
>or perhaps more of a Rudolf Hess figure, broken and confused by the
>world's misunderstanding of his heartfelt treachery, ending his days
>white and hunched in an Imperial Spandau, bisecting rats with
>Bergeracian flicks and twirls of his sharpened cabbage spoon.
>
>c
>but would the thirteen-year-olds go for it?

An obvious plot for the next Star Wars movie - Leya (sp?) goes over to
the dark side !! Now THAT could be interesting. She'd look a lot better in
black too!

-- 
* Steve Green     *  "Hey Rocky, watch me pull a rabbit outa my hat!"    *
* Comms Group     *  "That trick never works"                            *
* ITS Branch      *  "Nothin' up my sleeve - PRESTO"                     *
* CSIRO Australia *  "No doubt about it - I gotta get another hat"       *