HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: thos@suite.sw.oz.au (Thomas Cohen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.australian,soc.culture.asean
Subject: Re: **** Australian citizens kidnapped by Malaysian Prince ****
Date: 27 Jul 92 00:23:18 GMT
Organization: Softway Pty Ltd

In <1992Jul24.013442.11064@newsroom.utas.edu.au> u907736@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Edmund Chia) writes:

>In article <thos.711874284@suite.sw.oz.au>, thos@suite.sw.oz.au (Thomas Cohen) writes:
>> The base facts as I see them - the kids were Australian citizens, 
>> due all the protection of any Australian citizen. By taking them 
>> from their rightful custodians (mother and stepfather), the Malaysian
>> father broke several Australian laws, and intefered with Australia's
>> Sovereignity. (sp?) 

>Again, I believe that the above is based on assumptions which have yet to be
>substantiated. Based on the existing 'facts', it is possible to suggest that
>a 'kidnapping' had occurred, it is also logically possible that the father took
>his kids bushwalking and they were all lost in the bush. 

OK, granted that they could have been lost bushwalking, although the
press conference I saw on TV last night seems to indicate otherwise
(a very self-righteous prince explaining that it was Allah's will
that the children were now in Malaysia).


>>It matters little in law that a Malaysian court
>> has granted the father custody - they shouldn't be out of Australia.

>On what basis do you say that a Malaysian court had granted the father custody?
>On what basis do you claim that a Malaysian court would favour the father, regardless

On the basis that I read it in the newspaper. You have to decide what to
believe, and, gullible or not, I choose to believe what I read in the 
paper (Sydney Morning Herald) is factual.

>of the facts of the case? I will make allowances for your opinions born
>of loyalty to
>your country which lead you to believe that Australia is a better place
>to bring up the
>kids. However, your other remarks tend to reflect a prejudice of the
>Malaysian government
>and courts which has yet to be justified in this instance.

No they don't. I was not jumping to unjustified conclusions. 
I knew the father had been granted custody in Malaysia, because it
was noted in the paper, I had very strong suspicions that he'd
kidnapped the children because he'd disappeared and been gone for
more than a week, after he'd been granted custody by his court;
and also after his current wife had been interviewed saying how
she'd been told to prepare rooms for the children.

Don't presume how much other people may know about a topic. I did
have hacking for everything I said, so be more careful next time
before you accuse someone of unwarranted assumptions or prejudice.

>Edmund

-- 
thos cohen  				       |Softway Pty Ltd
 The best way to make a Japanese engineer wince|ACSnet:         thos@softway.oz
 is (when talking about an NSX) to say slowly  |UUCP: ...!uunet!softway.oz!thos
 'but its _not a Ferrari_ is it?' R.Bulgin, CAR|Internet:    thos@softway.oz.au
Newsgroups: soc.culture.australian
From: eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg (Othman Ahmad)
Subject: Re: **** Australian citizens kidnapped by Malaysian Prince ****
Organization: Nanyang Technological University - Singapore
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 09:30:01 GMT

In article <2797@ariel.its.unimelb.EDU.AU> stong@ariel.its.unimelb.EDU.AU (Simon Tong) writes:

: 
: I can't understand why is the Australian Government so afraid of taking a stand on 

Because they are more clever than you are.

: this issue ?  It has been almost two weeks since the children's disappearance.
: They could be anywhere in the world.

They are already in Malaysia, safe and happy.

: 
: I can't understand why should the Malaysian court ruling have any bearing,

They children are Malaysian citizens. Even in many countries, citizenship is
decided by the Father's citizenship, not the mother's. Australia must respect
the sovereignty of the Malaysian government and its citizens. Rule of justice
should prevail. Not biased and inconsistent rulings.

: the children are Aust. citizens living in Australia and the natural father
: has agreed to the Aust. court's decision.
How could you say that. If he had agreed, he would not have taken the children
out of Australia, would he? What logic you use. 
	What proff have you got that they are indeed Australian citizens, when
their father may not be. Does Australian immigration law provides automatic
citizenship to children whose father is not a citizen? A lot of countries
do not, even when their mother are citizen.

: 
: 
: 
: 

--
Othman bin Ahmad, School of EEE,
Nanyang Technological University, Singapore 2263.
Internet Email: eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg
Bitnet Email: eoahmad@ntuvax.bitnet

Newsgroups: soc.culture.australian,soc.culture.asean,aus.general
From: rswiftrw@cc.curtin.edu.au (Rod Swift)
Subject: Re: **** Australian citizens kidnapped by Malaysian Prince ****
Organization: -=[ Curtin University ]=-  Perth, Australia.
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 06:52:11 GMT

In article <1992Jul26.033852.16997@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg>, eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg (Othman Ahmad) writes:

> In article <1992Jul26.055325.1@cc.curtin.edu.au> rswiftrw@cc.curtin.edu.au (Rod Swift) writes:

>>>> Please shut up.  You are making an absolute [international] fool of
>>>> yourself

>>> I am tired arguing with you even in written medium. Your last phrase sums it
>>> all.
 
>> Can't take the blatantly obvious facts of this statement of mine, or is the
>> real reason why you have not even bothered to reply to my message is because
>> I have defeated all your arguments...?
 
>> Well...  I gather you will reply to my message, as not replying will indicate
>> that your point of view has faltered.

> How could I? After being told to shut up.

Only to shut your lies up and get back to the facts of the argument, as (IMAO)
you were making an utter fool of yourself by perpetuating your myth.

You were spreading myth-information.

> I do not want to waste time on fools.

I don't know how you can put up with yourself...

Are you running for the "July 1992 Asbestos Cork Award"?

Rod
-- 
|            . . .   . . . . .        "Dear God.  We paid for all this stuff|
|        +  +  +     +  +  +  +  +        ourselves, so thanks for nothing."|
|    *   *   *       *   *   *   *   *                                      |
|R    o    d         S    w    i    f    t      -- Bart Simpson saying grace|
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Internet: RSwiftRW@cc.curtin.edu.au               School of Social Sciences|
|PSImail : psi%050529452300070::RSwiftRW                   Curtin University|
|Bitnet  : RSwiftRW%cc.curtin.edu.au@cunyvm.bitnet             GPO Box U1987|
|UUCP    : uunet!munnari.oz!cc.curtin.edu.au!RSwiftRW        Perth  WA  6000|
Newsgroups: soc.culture.australian
From: bpeal@eng.clemson.edu (brian (malibu) peal)
Subject: Immigration
Summary: Someone please adopt me!
Reply-To: bpeal@eng.clemson.edu
Organization: College of Engineering, Clemson Univ.
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 17:47:33 GMT

    Most of my life I wanted to immigrate to Australia, but do to it's laws, it's 
pretty hard.  I am a 24 year old Computer Engineering student at Clemson and I am 
interested in any helpful information that will get me in to Australia. 

     Adopted me, hire me, marry me ( well maybe not).  

				Malibu S. Peal
				bpeal@eng.clemson.edu
Keywords: Immigration



Newsgroups: soc.culture.australian,soc.culture.asean
From: peta@thunder.mcrcim.mcgill.edu (Peter Whaite)
Subject: Re: **** Australian citizens kidnapped by Malaysian Prince ****
Organization: McGill Research Centre for Intelligent Machines
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 22:13:44 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.045043.14744@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg> eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg (Othman Ahmad) writes:
>
>Islam does not require circumcision as a condition
>to be a Muslim. Only the above statement. Circumcison is practised for 
>health reasons. This practice is carried over from Judaism. My daughter was
>circumcised. At first I was worried after reading all the horror stories but
>when I take a closer look it is nothing more that the remover an outer skin
>of something there.
>	My wife is also circumcised. You know how I feel.

Are you circumsized?
If so at what age were you circumsized?
If you were aged 9 years or younger when you were circumsized did you "think
for yourself" and make a voluntary choice?

Also I was under the impression that in Judaism only males were circumsized.
Guess I was wrong.


Newsgroups: soc.culture.australian,soc.culture.asean
From: rswiftrw@cc.curtin.edu.au (Rod Swift)
Subject: Re: **** Australian citizens kidnapped by Malaysian Prince ****
Organization: -=[ Curtin University ]=-  Perth, Australia.
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 09:21:08 GMT

In article <1992Jul27.033816.1463@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg>, eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg (Othman Ahmad) writes:
> In article <1992Jul26.212041.1@cc.curtin.edu.au> rswiftrw@cc.curtin.edu.au (Rod Swift) writes:

> : > Malaysian chief of police declared that the children would not be extradited
> : > because they are Malaysian citizens.

> : jump to the conclusion that the Malaysian police are propagandists and
> : and instrumentality of the Malaysian Government.  Not!)

> How about you? Are't you in the same situation? Why is it that you never look
> from the point of view of the other side. I can use the same argument that you
> throw at Malaysia, against Australia, but I don't because I know your system.

Please read my line again (or quote it fully).  At the end you will see the
word "Not!" meaning I would *NOT* say such a thing.

The real meaning of the paragraph is that if I *was* to act like you, I would
have jumped to the conclusion that the police are (etc etc)...

> : Maybe the UN will have a much different perspective if they do intervene?

> Especially when they are manned by people like you and USA, who blatantly
> kidnap foregn citizens to stand in their courts, courts with the same
> sense of justice like "contempt of court for even journalists who are
> trying to uncover truths", especially when it is incontestable and
> leads to imprisonment.

Othman, I'd say that you've again jumped to conclusions about contempt
of court involving the media!

So I, and Australia I presume, kidnaps people?

And I did NOT say "journalists who are trying to uncover the truth", I said
"journalists reporting on court proceedings", so don't come this "hindering
the press" business.

Rod
-- 
|            . . .   . . . . .        "Dear God.  We paid for all this stuff|
|        +  +  +     +  +  +  +  +        ourselves, so thanks for nothing."|
|    *   *   *       *   *   *   *   *                                      |
|R    o    d         S    w    i    f    t      -- Bart Simpson saying grace|
+---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Internet: RSwiftRW@cc.curtin.edu.au               School of Social Sciences|
|PSImail : psi%050529452300070::RSwiftRW                   Curtin University|
|Bitnet  : RSwiftRW%cc.curtin.edu.au@cunyvm.bitnet             GPO Box U1987|
|UUCP    : uunet!munnari.oz!cc.curtin.edu.au!RSwiftRW        Perth  WA  6000|
Newsgroups: soc.culture.australian,soc.culture.asean
From: steve@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au (Steve Balogh (+61 3 565 4747))
Subject: Re: **** Australian citizens kidnapped by Malaysian Prince ****
Organization: Monash University, Melbourne, AUSTRALIA
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 07:00:49 GMT

In article <1992Jul27.045038.6263@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg> eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg (Othman Ahmad) writes:
>
>You are absolutely right. The children come at their own free will. Not
>kidnapped. They do not care about Australian Law. What they care for is their
>father.
>	No matter how hard the mother try to separate them from their fathers,
>they would not listen. RESPECT their RIGHTS as a HUMAN BEING.

WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP!!!!!!!! Othman Ahmad, you speak BULLSHIT!!!!!!!

Where the HELL do you get the crap that you sprout forth? You ARE a dickhead!

> Maybe You are the one who hates their fathers? Western people are not
>well taught to respect elders, am I right?.

PISS OFF YOU IDIOTIC FOOL!!!!!!

Newsgroups: soc.culture.australian,soc.culture.asean
From: rswiftrw@cc.curtin.edu.au (Rod Swift)
Subject: Re: **** Australian citizens kidnapped by Malaysian Prince ****
Organization: -=[ Curtin University ]=-  Perth, Australia.
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 08:49:26 GMT
From: cjp8b@dayhoff.med.Virginia.EDU (Chris Penington)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.australian
Subject: Moving east coast US ->east coast Oz
Summary: Any good shipping agents in eastern US?
Date: 23 Jul 92 01:35:55 GMT
Organization: University of Virginia
Originator: cjp8b@dayhoff.med.Virginia.EDU

I'm just starting to investigate moving home. Apart from books (which
the US post office will ship at 72c/lb) I only have about six or eight
cubic feet of stuff to get home weighing perhaps 300 pounds.
Could anyone who has made the move from the Eastern US (I'm near
Washington D.C..) to Australia (ideally Melbourne) suggest a shipping
agent/freight forwarder that will get my stuff downunder for less than
the post office charges ($2.10/lb if it isn't books)?

Thanks,

	Chris
-- 
Chris Penington (cjp8b@virginia.edu)             .A---------.        My
Biochemistry Dept., Box 440                     /o           `   Favourite
UVa Health Sciences Ctr,                       (_,           7   Marsupial
Charlottesville, Va 22908   (804)924-8210         \>~~~~~~z7
Newsgroups: soc.culture.australian,soc.culture.asean
From: u907736@postoffice.utas.edu.au (Edmund Chia)
Subject: Re: **** Australian citizens kidnapped by Malaysian Prince ****
Organization: University of Tasmania
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 06:29:51 GMT

In article <thos.711961428@suite.sw.oz.au>, thos@suite.sw.oz.au (Thomas Cohen) writes:


(stuff deleted)


> I'm not paying it particular attention because the father is a Prince,
> nor because the children are being taken to an Islamic state. My 
> interest stems from the fact that Malaysia is always complaining to
> our government about how our TV shows show disrespect for them and 
> their customs; and yet when Malaysian citizens break the laws of our
> country, and kidnap citizens, their government shows no respect for
> our laws and customs. It does sound like double standards to me.
> 
> However, the double-dealing aside, the kidnapping of a country's 
> citizens is an affront to all citizens of that country.
> 
> 
> regards,
> -- 
> thos cohen  				       |Softway Pty Ltd
>  The best way to make a Japanese engineer wince|ACSnet:         thos@softway.oz
>  is (when talking about an NSX) to say slowly  |UUCP: ...!uunet!softway.oz!thos
>  'but its _not a Ferrari_ is it?' R.Bulgin, CAR|Internet:    thos@softway.oz.au


One aspect of Australian law which has always commanded respect from
me is that a person, prince or otherwise, is ALWAYS presumed innocent
until proven guilty. Therefore, to demonstrate MY respect of Australian
law, I shall presume that that person alleged to be a prince, and alleged
to have kidnapped his children for the alleged purpose of having his
daughter and son circumcised, and alleged to have returned to Malaysia,
IS INNOCENT - until he has been proven guilty, of course.

I also watched on the news a couple of days ago, a female Malaysian
Minister(whose name I cannot recall offhand) state that the Malaysian
government would not be getting involved as it was a private matter.
HOW, WHERE and WHEN did Malaysia demonstrate its lack of respect for
Australian law or custom in this specific case?

IF that person alleged to be a prince really did kidnap his children
in violation of Australian law? Do Australians(some) mean to suggest
that he was aided or abetted by the Malaysian government in kidnapping
the children? That perhaps a Malaysian Air Force jet or Navy vessel
landed secretly somewhere in the Northern Territory, and secretly
brought the prince and their father back to Malaysia?

Finally, a suggestion that we split this very interesting and
provocative argument into different headers - one for the
clitoris debate and one for the what really happened discussion.

Edmund
Newsgroups: soc.culture.australian
From: ggm@brolga.cc.uq.oz.au (George Michaelson)
Subject: Re: Auto Importation into Australia
Organization: Prentice Centre, University of Queensland
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 00:30:12 GMT

In case nobody else has mentioned it, several of the US norking machines

(the ones with naugahide covered bench seats and soft springs so that the
 "if its rockin' don't bother knocking" sign actually serves a purpose)

with fat doors and a tennis-court sized bonnet and boot were built in
right-hand drive model (presumably for here, and South Effrica) and can
still be acquired secondhand, at least in states like QLD where rust is
less of a factor.

Why anybody wants to be SEEN driving something like this when an FJ
holden ute is available is beyond me. How about trading down to a
morris minor, and shifting from levi 501's and check shirt to polyester
flares and a blue anorak with hood?

	-George
--
                         George Michaelson
G.Michaelson@cc.uq.oz.au The Prentice Centre      | There's no  market for
                         University of Queensland | hippos in Philadelphia
Phone: +61 7 365 4079    QLD Australia 4072       |          -Bertold Brecht
From: che358w@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au
Newsgroups: soc.culture.australian
Subject: Re: **** Australian citizens kidnapped by Malaysian Prince ****
Date: 29 Jul 92 16:48:09 +1000
Organization: Computer Centre, Monash University, Australia

> :
> : I can't understand why should the Malaysian court ruling have any bearing,
>
> They children are Malaysian citizens. Even in many countries, citizenship is
> decided by the Father's citizenship, not the mother's. Australia must respect
> the sovereignty of the Malaysian government and its citizens. Rule of justice
> should prevail. Not biased and inconsistent rulings.
   The children are also Australian citizens and Malaysia must respect the
sovreignty of Australian Government and its law not waltz and and kidnap
citizens. It is often very diffilcult to shed the nationality of the countyr
in which you were born even if you want to. This has led to tragedies where
the Australians were involved but the Australian Government could do nothing
because the country involved refused to recognise the australian citizenship
of thpeople involved.

Samantha Lane
Xref: sparky soc.culture.australian:3632 soc.culture.asean:4920
From: steven@syacus.acus.oz.au (Steven Malikoff)
Subject: Re: Auto Importation into Australia
Organization: ACUS Australian Centre for Unisys Software, Sydney
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 00:01:21 GMT

reno@darlo.Eng.Sun.COM (Reno Marioni) writes:
: Does anyone have any experiences bringing a vehicle from the US 
: to Australia?
...
: My questions are :
: 1) Does the car have to be converted to Right Hand Drive?

You can register and drive left-hand drive cars here, but the Roads and
Traffic Authority may look more favourably on certain vehicles, like
classic or vintage. Here in NSW I have to have a sign, with minimum 3" high
letters, saying 'CAUTION LEFT HAND DRIVE' on the back of my '44 jeep. As
far as I know, you don't need a similar sign on the front.

Steve Malikoff.
steven@syacus.acus.oz.au
Newsgroups: soc.culture.australian,soc.culture.asean
From: rxo868@huxley.anu.edu.au (Remo Ostini)
Subject: Re: Loving Malaysian Prince: New Developments
Originator: rxo868@huxley
Organization: Australian National University
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 23:53:14 GMT

There are still a few people posting articles saying that the father stole
the children from Australia and in so doing, broke the law.  He certainly
broke the law but when he took the children he took them back.  They were
originally taken from their home by the mother on the pretext of visiting a
sick relative.

Perhaps my previous post (both of it!) didn't reach some people, but my
sympathy for the mother was greatly reduced when I found out that she was
the original culprit.  The father has spent the last six years trying to work
through the Australian courts and the mother's decision to have the children
baptised as Christians was just the last straw as far as he was concerned.

The mother was married in Malaysia, to a Malaysian, in a Muslim ceremony, and
had children there.  She doesn't have the right to then skip the country, take
the children and remarry as if it's no business of the father.

I agree though that the bottom line is that it is awful to do this to the
kids.  But please don't go on saying the father took the children without
acknowledging that the mother took them first and the father's actions were
his way of getting them back.

Remo

-- 
Remo Ostini 			  *  rxo868@huxley.anu.edu.au
NCEPH, ANU			  *	
GPO Box 4, 			  *  
Canberra  ACT 2601, Australia	  *
Newsgroups: soc.culture.australian
Subject: Rugby tour to SA
From: adesward@casper.cs.uct.ac.za (A M J De Swardt)
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 19:54:12 GMT
Distribution: global
Organization: Computer Science Department, University of Cape Town
Keywords: rugby
Summary: rugby

I am a South African rugby union fan and I'm eagerly awaiting the forthcoming

tour to SA by the All Blacks and Wallabies next month. We have been receiving

reports that the tour might be in jeopardy. Any views and news would be

greatly appreciated. 

Anton de Swardt - University of Cape Town. 

Newsgroups: soc.culture.australian,soc.culture.asean
From: kaic@mullian.ee.mu.oz.au (David Chan)
Subject: Re: Loving Malaysian Prince: New Developments 
Organization: Electrical and Electronic - University of Melbourne 
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 09:13:42 GMT

eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg (Othman Ahmad) writes:

	[deleted - read original]
>
>The above do not tell the WHOLE STORY/TRUTH. What do you expect from Chinese
>Journalists/editors.
								      ^^^^^^
					  	  Hmm, a hint of racial bias? 

	An 'educated' person like you should not be make such remarks. By
doing so you lose what little support you might have had from fellow Malaysians
who happen to be of Chinese descent. I am of Chinese descent but am proud to
be 'Malaysian'; A true 'Malaysian' society isn't separated into Chinese, 
Malay, Indian or sub-societies of other races.

	To all others who were appalled by Encik Othman's abusive stance - I
think his persistence (IMHO) is a case of wounded pride. Having been shown
up, people with such an affliction will doggedly try to 'save face'. I know
because I was once young and proud (Thank heavens - I have since mended my
silliness)!

	Never be too proud too admit that you have erred, Encik Othman. 
And for goodness sake, stop being so abusive when replying - argue cogently
with the facts, and don't let emotions/religion cloud your thinking. You are
giving the rest of the world a bad impression of Malaysians!!!

>--
>Othman bin Ahmad, School of EEE,
>Nanyang Technological University, Singapore 2263.
>Internet Email: eoahmad@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg
>Bitnet Email: eoahmad@ntuvax.bitnet
 
Regards,
DC

==_|_=====================================================================
| \ / ~~>         David Chan        | Tel:+613 3444650, Fax:+613 3446678 |
| _V_ <~~   Photonics Research Labs |"First, let there be optical fibres"|
|  |  PRL    Melbourne  University  |    "Then, let there be light..."   |
==========================================================================
Newsgroups: soc.culture.australian