HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Soldering and Barrel Hardness
Date: 31 Dec 92 01:26:04 GMT
Organization: Twilight Zone

In article <A86D3C27487FC0249F@VXC.UNCWIL.EDU> PATE@VXC.UNCWIL.EDU (BILL PATE, ADMIN. SERVICES, PATE@VXC.UNCWIL.EDU) writes:
##>	draw the temper out of the steel, which will leave it 1/2 hard at

#I was not aware that barrels were tempered or even very hard. If they were,
#I think they would crack under the pressure surge of firing. Barrels bend very
#readily, which further leads me to believe they are not hardened and
#tempered like tools. A file will skate across a hard tool without cutting,
#but a barrel can be filed quite easily.
#
#I think the heat distortion would be a problem, however. Just my $.02.



	Eek... how embarassing...  I was under the impressin that the bores
	of some guns were hardened to some degree.  Shows you what *I* know 
	about the metallurgy of firearms (a fact that gives me great cause
	to be ashamed).  

	HOWEVER, I read an article in last month's American Rifleman about
	a double rifle conversion made for a 28 ga. shotgun and in it the
	author described the process of aligning the barrels.  They 
	mentioned that after about 4 or 5 reheats, they left well enough
	alone to avoid damage to the barrels.  I ASSumed that too many
	reheats would draw the tempet from the steel.  Since this seems
	not to be the case, is the issue one of distortion or is it
	something else?

	-Andy V.
From: bbx!bbxrbk!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Russ Kepler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Norinco M14/Mini14/SKS
Date: 22 Dec 92 15:06:20 GMT
Organization: russ at home in Albuquerque New Mexico

In article <1992Dec21.153041.15233@engage.pko.dec.com> towle@vssteg.enet.dec.com (Clark Towle Gunsmith) writes:
# When the "genuine US Mil spec" clone kits appeared on the market myself and 
#another good friend who is also a match armourer/gunsmith each bought a kit 
#just to see if the fantastically low price was worth it. To make a long story 
#short it wasn't. The worst part was trying to get the barrel to headspace. 
#4 different US made aftermarket receivers were tried and headspace was unsafe 
#in all of them. 

I'm not sure if it's the same, but an outfit in IL was selling GI
parts kits for the M14 (minus receiver).  I picked one up about this
time last year, and got a Springfield receiver to go with it
midsummer.  The action went together just fine, headspaced well and it
fires quite well.

The stock was apparently from the Middle East, so I'd bet at least
some of the parts came from there.  There was very little wear in the
GI barrel I got with my kit, and very little wear on the camming
surfaces.

# The "bannana bill" stuff aside, Mini-14 is ok I guess if you just gotta have 
#something that shoots 223 and aren't concerned about losing most of your 
#brass. The "raunch rifle" throws the empties about 50 feet.. The biggest 
#drawback to the Mini-14 is its woefully inadequate accuracy.

I'll second that - and if you go so far as to get a Mini-14 with a
folding stock your shots will really wander.

# The SKS?? Go for it... Definitely one of the best buys on the market. Its 
#accurate enough for hunting, fires a round that's in the 30-30 power range, 
#its a fun plinker, surplus ammo is as cheap as dirt, federal loads an 
#excellent soft point hunting load, the rifle is like a Timex,,, it takes a 
#licking and keeps on ticking.

I'd agree with that.

I'll also point out that the current production Colt Sporter seems to
be going for less and less - the Sporter AR-15 is beginning to dip
into the high $400's, and this pushes the used AR prices down.  Over
all of the above I'd be more interested in a used AR-15.

-- 
Russ Kepler, posting from home   bbxrbk!russ@bbx.basis.com
Will hack unix for food
From: schuette@roadkill.nrl.navy.mil (Larry Schuette)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: magazines for AR-15s
Date: 22 Dec 92 00:00:44 GMT

Hi,
	I was at Mrytle Grove Shooting Range at lunch today trying out
my new Colt Sporter.  In addition to the two 5 round magazines that 
came with the gun, I brought along four 20 round magazines that I got
at a gun show a couple of weeks ago.
	I really enjoyed shooting and sighting in the gun
(even without the help of our favorite moderator - who's range is 
still being renovated :)).  The one problem was the four "used"
magazines.  Two of them would not allow the cartridge to be reliably
stripped by the bolt and fed into the chamber.  I could not see any
noticable difference between the "bad" and the "good" magazines, but
my Colt sure could.  Why do I get the feeling that this is old news
to AR-15 & Colt Sporter owners?  What looked like a good deal ($5.00
per magazine), now looks like a lousy one.  
	If in fact, the AR's are really sensitive to feed lip damage
on the magazines, does anyone make a plastic or rubber cover to
protect the top of the magazine?  Probably would double as a dust-
cover as well.

Larry
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
	"I forced him to land ..., but it was Christmas Eve, so I let 
	    him go.  Besides, who would believe a Beagle could fly" 
							B.M. Richtofen 

Lawrence C. Schuette			  schuette@roadkill.nrl.navy.mil
Code 7133				  (202)767-2739  
Naval Research Laboratory		  (202)767-5561 (fax) 	
Washington D.C.	20375-5350
From: hays@SSD.intel.com (Kirk Hays)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: alternative chemicals for lubrication and getting the lead out
Date: 22 Dec 92 00:00:59 GMT
Organization: Intel Supercomputer Systems Division

In article <1992Dec20.123949.9406@cbnews.cb.att.com>, lvc@cbvox1.att.com (Lawrence V Cipriani) writes:

|> Any comments on this ?  Mine are in [square brackets].

How can I resist?

|> "One of the most overlooked methods for lubricating firearms after
|> cleaning is to use air conditioning refridgerant oil.  A/C refridgerant
|> oil is one of the finest, odorless lubricants available.  As mentioned
|> in previous articles WD-40 can do more harm than good and transmission
|> fluid (Dexron) also has it [sic] downfalls.  Because it's meant to be
|> used in transmissions, transmission fluid has coloring added to it
|> [I don't follow that logic - lvc]

The coloring makes leak detection easier.  Nothing more.

|> For a penetrating oil, the best I have found is another automobile product
|> called Heat Riser Solvent.  It comes in a spray can and will penetrate and
|> dissolve rust or corrosion in a heartbeat.

Remember that gun blue is nothing but (*gasp*) RUST!

I'd be cautious with this stuff around non-stainless guns.

-- 
Kirk Hays - NRA Life.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing."  -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
From: phelps@miki.pictel.com (Dan Phelps)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: 257 Roberts Ruger
Date: 29 Dec 92 19:02:28 GMT
Organization: PictureTel Corporation



I have some general questions regarding this gun.

I will be inheriting a 257 Roberts Ruger rifle some time in the future.

I normally hunt deer with a Savage 30-30 in northern Vermont. Would the 257
have enough stopping power for deer in fairly dense woods? 

I have heard that the 257 has the rifling of the barrel in the opposite 
direction than that of standard guns. Is this true? And if so, why would
a manufacturer want to do this?

-Dan 

############################################################################
Dan Phelps						phelps@pictel.com
PictureTel Corporation
One Corporation Way					fax. (508)977-9481
Peabody, MA 01960
PH. (508)977-8270
############################################################################
From: hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: ... high capacity autoloader and other info
Date: 29 Dec 92 19:02:30 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University

In article <1992Dec28.165357.28716@samba.oit.unc.edu> Harry.Johnson@lambada.oit.unc.edu (Harry Johnson) writes:
# ...
#So, then, given these constraints:  intended use of defense, high capacity
#(>15 rounds), price <$650 or $700, which gun should I shop for and why? 
# ...

  IMHO "defense" implies a need for 9mm or greater.  The ">15 rounds"
knocks out most everything greater than 9mm and also knocks out just
about all the 9mm except for the Glock 17 and the pistols which 
look like a cut-down subgun (is there a better way to describe the
"ugly" :-) pistols such as the H&K SP89, the Intratec and the Uzi?)
(Any of the magazine fed pistols can theoretically have a 
magazine >15 rounds, but I'm thinking of the normal configurations.)
The price constraint knocks out the H&K.  So there are very few
choices.

  If a person has requirements such as these, my general suggestion
is to get a copy of Gun Digest or Shooters Bible and go through
the handgun section and look at all the specifications and prices.
It will not take very long, it will be a very good review, and it
will lead to more precisely formulated questions.

--henry schaffer
From: dmunroe@hpvclmun.vcd.hp.com (Dave Munroe)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: light .44 Magnum loads
Date: 22 Dec 92 23:47:56 GMT



#So if I can load it with 6 gr in a .44 Special case, why can't I load the 
#same bullet with 6 gr in a .44 magnum case?

Several of my reloading manuals refer to a phenonmenon called "detonation"
which supposedly occurs when a load is too light for the given case volume.
What supposedly happens is that rather than the powder burning in a controlled
fashion, it detonates and results in a pressure spike higher than the case
is designed for.  I don't know if this has ever been proven, but I keep
seeing references to it and I do remember articles in the gun mags where
cotton was used inside the case with light loads.

To answer your specific question, the .44 mag case is larger than the .44
Special case, so the ratio of powder to case volume is lower.

-Dave
From: bbx!bbxrbk!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Russ Kepler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Cartridges needing identification
Date: 31 Dec 92 01:26:11 GMT
Organization: russ at home in Albuquerque New Mexico

In article <9212301352.aa07949@claudius.pica.army.mil> erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID) writes:
#The blue plastic 7.62 NATO cartridges are short range practice cartridges.
#Upon firing the "bullet" breaks away from the "case" at the slight groove
#or step and proceeds down the barrel. The blunt shape and light weight
#cause it to slow down rapidly, but it's lethal at close range. Similar
#cartridges are available for 9mm, 5.56mm, and .50 BMG.
#
#"DAG" is I think Dynamit Nobel AG.

Thanks to Ed and the others (Alexander Eichener of Germany and Chris
Evans of New Zealand) who identified this cartridge.  They were given to
me partly as a gag gift.

In response I told 'em I was going to go Smurf hunting ;-)

-- 
Russ Kepler, posting from home   russ@bbx.basis.com, bbxrbk!russ@bbx.basis.com
"It's better to be quotable than to be honest" - Tom Stoppard
From: erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: 9mm M-1 Carbine?
Date: 22 Dec 92 15:05:09 GMT


Peter Cash writes:
#I've heard that someone once made--or makes-- an M-1 carbine chambered for
#9mm parabellum. Since it strikes me that this could possibly be a Good
#Thing To Have (tm), I'd appreciate any information anyone has about this
#critter.
#
#I _think_ it was/is made by Iver Johnson, but I can't find any references
#to it in my books at home. I'd like to know if these things are still being
#made, and what I can expect to pay for one. Also, if you've shot one, I'd
#like to know about reliability, accuracy, and quality.
#
#Yes, I know about the Marlin Camp Carbine, and that's a possibility also.
#However, I'd prefer a gas-operated M-1 style gun, since I have a theory
#that it would not have the drawback of shooting as "dirty" as the Camp
#Carbine. (Refutations of my theory are welcome 8^)


The 9mm M1 was indeed made by Iver Johnson. It appeared regularly in
distributor catalogs until a few months ago, and it may very well be dead
now. It was quite a bit more expensive than the Camp Carbine.

Don't count on the 9mm M1 being gas operated. This would entail substantial
redesign of the gas system, and a modification to pure blowback would be
simpler and cheaper, as Colt did with their 9mm AR-15.

I also thought about this piece, but since I already own both an M1 and
a Camp Carbine I decided to pass. One nice feature was that it used the
Hi Power magazine interface, which would give it commonality with my
Hi Power and my AGM.1 carbine, whereas the Camp Carbine uses the S&W
59-series magazine interface.

In GUN WEEK, Waldo Lydecker, the Industry Editor, mentioned that the
Camp Carbine has been quite successful in the police market despite not
being marketed there, and that Ruger plans to introduce a 9mm Mini-14
which will probably be a "law enforcement only" item.



Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
Protect the Second Amendment - boycott Ruger products
Geordi: "...it's like the laws of physics went right out the
window." Q: "And why shouldn't they? They're so inconvenient."
From: hudson@ualr.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Medved Carbines
Date: 23 Dec 92 22:59:55 GMT
Organization: University of Arkansas at Little Rock

In article <9212191040.AA18100@zippy.cs.UMD.EDU>, C08926RC@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu (Rob) writes:
# Last night I was reading an article on a Russian hunt that some
# Americans went on in 1978.  The rifle supplied to them was a
# Medved carbine - an 18.5" barrelled semi-auto with a 3 round
# magazine (hinged at the front), and it fired a 9.3mm round.
# 
# While not the most attractive gun in the world, it would make
# a nice addition to my collection.  Has anyone seen these things
# stateside, and if so, what kind of price can I expect?
# 
# 
# Rob
-- 

I had understood that the Medved was the "civilian" or "commercial"
counterpart to the Soviet SVD (?) sniper rifle.  That unit uses the old
Russian round (7.62 X 52???) and a larger capacity magazine, either 10
or 20 rounds.

I'll check on that one in Small Arms (if I can remember -8) at home, 
and follow up again.

Keith

___________________________________________________________

Keith Hudson		hudson%eivax@ualr.edu	(best)
   N5EEZ		mkhudson@ualr.edu	(secondary)
-----------------------------------------------------------
          University of Arkansas at Little Rock
      Department of Electronics and Instrumentation
___________________________________________________________
From: rhoten@a.cs.okstate.edu (rhoten r p)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Stupid question time, again...
Date: 24 Dec 92 18:40:31 GMT
Organization: Oklahoma State University, Computer Science, Stillwater

In article <1992Dec22.184105.19382@cbfsb.cb.att.com> osan@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (Mr. X) writes:
#Hi Folks!
#
#I have a question that has been nagging at me for quite some time.  Why is it
#that large artillery guns can toss projectiles out the muzzle at velocities
#so much higher than a shoulder arm?  Is there any absolute reason why you could
#not build a .30 rifle that spits a projectile down range at 10K fps, muzz. ?
.....
I don't really think artillary shells have that high a 
muzzle velocity.  I recommendan excellent book
 _Interior Ballisitcs of Guns_, edited by Herman Krier
and Martin Summerfield, Vol. 66, Progress in Astronautics and
Aeronautics, published by the American Institute of Aeronautics and
Astronautics, 1979.

In one of the included papers by Krier and Adams some sample
figures are given for the 175-mm M113 gun system-
a projectile of about 148 lbm, 352 inch bore length, maximum breech
pressure of about 50 kpsi and muzzle velocities of around 3000 fps.
About like your typical .308 except for the bore length
and projectile size!

In a paper on high muzzle velocity guns, some interesting 
laboratory results are described, including heating a 
chamber full of hydrogen with an electric arc discharge 
(18,000 fps), chambers with step-down piston 
systems (22,670 fps for a 2.5-g projectile!) and chambers 
sealed with disks that didn't rupture until maximum pressures
were reached.

Finally, for a historical note, the book _Respectfully Yours,
H. M. Pope_ (for those who don't know the name H. M. Pope,
we was the finest barrel maker of all time - died in 1950)
there is a letter to Pope from F. W. Mann (the most famous
"gun nut experimentor" of all time) dated Oct. 30, 1916
ordering a smoothbore 30 caliber barrel for high velocity
tests with steel bullets Mann turned on his lathe.  He 
claimed having gotten to 6000 fps, but was ruining
barrels because of gas blowby, and wanted a fine
Pope barrel for better sealing.

r. p. rhoten
From: jmd@cube.handheld.com (Jim De Arras)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Saved by the gun
Date: 1 Jan 93 23:57:18 GMT
Organization: Hand Held Products, Inc.

In article <64nrfn-@dixie.com> jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond) writes:
# 
# I happened to have "Hardcopy" playing on the TV tonite (12/29/92) and
# saw some incredible video.  
[..]
# 
# Even more amazing was the next segment taken from a convenience store
# camera.  Four mexican armed robbers stormed in and hopped the counter.
# They robbed the cash register.  In the instant the punks turned their
                                                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^
# backs on the owner, he pulled what looked like a 9 mm automatic and 
  ^^^^^
# killed all 4.  He appeared to know what he was doing, discharging 6
# shots in a little over 3 seconds.  

I have a problem with this, at least as presented here.  If they were leaving,  
I do not personally feel deadly force was needed at the point they turned thier  
backs.  Unless the fact that they were mexican made them fair game.

# 
# In other news tonite, the local news reported a woman kidnapped and raped
# after the rapist took her to his house and chained her to the bed.  
# He fell asleep after raping the woman.  She got loose from her chains,
# got his gun and killed him.  Police say there will be no charges filed.
# 

I guess stress and shock were in play, here, but again, on the surface, she  
should not have shot and killed him if she apparently had the chance to leave.   
Taking the gun, of course.

# 
# John
# 
# -- 
# John De Armond, WD4OQC               |Interested in high performance  
mobility?  
# Performance Engineering Magazine(TM) | Interested in high tech and computers? 
# Marietta, Ga                         | Send ur snail-mail address to 
# jgd@dixie.com                        | perform@dixie.com for a free sample  
mag
# Need Usenet public Access in Atlanta?  Write Me for info on Dixie.com.
# 

My opinions only, and I DO have sympathy for the victims, but unless their  
lives were in immediate danger, they have no right to short-circuit  
due-process.  No matter how bad a scum the attacker it.  But I do give benefit  
of the doubt to the victim, stress and force are awful things.

Jim

--
Jim De Arras            | The opinions expressed herein are
Hand Held Products, Inc.| not necessarily those of Hand 
804.784.3090 voice      | Held Products, Inc., and may not 
804.784.3147 FAX        | even be mine. Use at your own risk
From: cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (Chris Luchini)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Major 9 loading data.
Date: 31 Dec 92 16:36:39 GMT
Organization: High Energy Physics, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign


Someone posted a while back the Acurate Arms recomendataion for starting
loads for Major 9 (Otherwise known as 9x21). If anyone has that
data, could you please send me a copy? thanks.
*1110 W. Green/Urbana IL 61801/217-333-0505/cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu
From: gbanks@oxygen.aps1.anl.gov (Gregory Banks)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Looking for Winchester 101's
Date: 21 Dec 92 14:55:40 GMT
Organization: Argonne National Laboratory, Chicago Illinois

I am looking to replace the over&unders that were stolen from my vehicle
while hunting in Iowa. Anybody out there know where I can buy any
Winchester 101's ? I posted on here before and somebody gave me the
names of two places to call, one in Ohio and I am not sure of the other.
I would really appreciate the names and phone numbers again for those
two places. I seemed to have misplaced the information I recieved the
first time.

			 MERRY CHRISTMAS
From: steve@law7.daytonoh.ncr.com (Steve Bridges)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: trivia
Date: 3 Jan 93 16:00:49 GMT
Organization: NCR Corporation -- Law Department

harri@camelot.bradley.edu (Thomas Friday) writes:

#In <1315@blue.cis.pitt.edu> nahst6+@pitt.edu (Nathan A Horstman) writes:


##Some random questions:

#the cartridge is called, coincidentally, .30 M1 Carbine.. :-) ammo is
#widely available, so dont worry about making brass.. the case has no
#shoulder; it looks almost straight-walled.  i believe with a 110 grain
#bullet velocities would typically be around 1900 fps; i.e. not much of
#a rifle cartridge, but pretty hot for a handgun. (revolvers in this
#caliber were/are(?) produced by a few companies i believe)..

Let's get techie --

The weapon U.S. Carbine, caliber .30 M-1 :-)

The original military load was a 110gr jacketed bullet with 14.5gr Dupont
military powder.  Muzzle velocity was 1900 fps.

The case is a straight wall case with a slight taper from base to mouth
(from .360" to .331").

My reloading manual lists velocities from 1428 fps to 1950 fps for a 110gr
bullet depending on powder and powder weight.

There are reloading dies available, but with new ammo going for $7.50 per
box of 50, you'd have to reload a whole lot to save any money.

Steve

#--
#harri@camelot.bradley.edu 
#I'd rather be getting laid.
-- 
Steve Bridges, Programmer/Analyst| NCR - Law Department, WHQ-5
steve@law7.DaytonOH.NCR.COM   ___| Phone:(513)-445-4486 622-4486 (VOICEplus)
Sci.military moderator        | "The airplane does not recognize attitude,
providing a maneuver is conducted at one G" -- A.M. "Tex" Johnston
From: toby@stein.u.washington.edu (Toby Bradshaw)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Info on Case and Neck Turning with Forster Trimmer Requested
Date: 30 Dec 92 16:07:03 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <1992Dec29.160636.20615@ra.msstate.edu> dnewcomb@whale.st.usm.edu (Donald R. Newcomb) writes:
#I would like to open the thread up a bit. I'm interested in turning the
#necks on my rifle brass and would appreciate opinons on what to buy.

I use a Sinclair hand-powered turner.  It does the job well, but
adjustment is by trial/error and micrometer measurement.  There
are hand-type neck turners with some form of accurate control of
setting cutting depth.  Hand turners are S-L-O-W but accurate.  
I've never used a power neck turner.  I question the need for
such a thing, because neck turning is really best suited to
tight-neck chambers, and of limited (probably no) use elsewhere.
If your case necks are out of round by a little, you won't
be able to tell the difference in a standard chamber.  If they're
out by a lot, the brass is junk because of runout at the case head
(although you still may not be able to tell the difference).
If the thickness varies, it doesn't hurt a thing in a
standard chamber because the necks don't touch the chamber walls until
the round is fired anyway (unless the round has been full-length
resized), and the bullet tension in controlled by the size
of the expander ball in a 7/8-14 die.  If you use
a button-type neck die, the necks can be made of equal ID using
an expanding arbor, and skipping the neck turning.

The Wilson trimmer can be adapted for neck turning, and either
tool is about 10E6 times better than the standard reloading
equipment, but costs no more.

Toby Bradshaw
Department of Biochemistry and College of Forest Resources
University of Washington, Seattle
toby@u.washington.edu

"A well-educated electorate being necessary to the prosperity of
a free state, the right of the people to keep and read books, shall
not be infringed."  Should speed reading courses be restricted to 
police and military to prevent "assault reading" by citizens?