HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.slovak-l
Date:         Fri, 24 Jul 1992 14:44:47 CDT
From:         Paul Mego <PMEGO3@UA1VM.BITNET>

As a student of nationalism, (and "nationalism" as a term
unfortunately has been seriously misrepresented especially in the
American press as having far more negative aspects than positive
ones--it is an important force for growth and self-confidence
especially in newly liberalizing nations but a potential for abuse
obviously exists also) it seems to me that language policy is an
issue of strengthening the self-confidence that is necessary for
new, smaller nations who would become states. Most (if not all) of
the new states developing from the former Soviet Union have new
policies favoring native language. These states (Baltics
especially) have encouragement and support (moral if not yet
financial) from the US and Western Europe. It would be hypocritical
and inconsistent if Slovakia were to be condemned for language
policies that reflect similar policies in other newly liberalizing
nation-states in Europe. Of course the potential for abuse of
nationalism is strong. What I think is important now is
understanding and especially empathy--by Czechs for Slovaks but
also Slovaks for Hungarians, Romany and other minorities living in
Slovakia. While not always considered of Slovak nationality they
are an important integrated part of Slovakia. Let us not
immediately assume that policies will be abusive. By first
condemning before there is anything to condemn but the past we may
be contributing to the present problems. Slovakia would seem to
have a large stake in proving that the abuse that accompanied the
self-determination of the past will not accompany the self-
determination of the future (present). At first, we must give the
benefit of the doubt  to this most recent expression of self-
determination and self-identity.  While I resist invoking the past
as a reflection of what the future may be like (what about
Germany's or the Baltic's or Poland's authoritarian oppressive
past--these are rarely invoked so let us be careful of invoking the
past of other nations) the past does have some light to shed on the
present...the facts are that Slovaks lived under 19th c.
magyarization, Masaryk's disregard of important Slovak symbols as
the Pittsburgh Agreement, Benes and his comments concerning the
non-existence of a Slovak nation and official Communist policies of
"democratic centralism" (in Prague) have threatened Slovak self-
identity. If Slovaks choose independence, with luck, hope, (and
some assistance) Slovakia may be able to survive as do other small
countries increasing world economic ties but maintaining the
important non-threatened self-identity while not threatening, and indeed guaran
teeing the same self-identity of minorities within her borders.

      Paul Mego
      University of Alabama
      Graduate Student-Department of Political Science
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Date:         Wed, 22 Jul 1992 07:57:00 +0100
From:         KUBASKA@CSBBYS51.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Havel

Excuse me one more time, please. I forgot to put down my name in reply to
Henry Kucera again. I'm doing it now :
                       Marian Kubaska,
                       Banska Bystrica
                       Czecho-Slovakia
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Date:         Mon, 27 Jul 1992 20:44:46 EST
From:         HAMMERL@UCS.INDIANA.EDU
Subject:      Dubcek
X-To:         slovak-l@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu

	RFE/RL has been sending its reports to
individuals on a trial basis for the past month or two.  The
following came in today's report, and I thought it might
interest the list.

Louise Hammer


RFE/RL Daily Report 27 JUL, 1992

DUBCEK CALLS FOR REFERENDUM ON CZECHOSLOVAKIA'S FUTURE.  Speaking
at a news conference in Bratislava on 24 July, Alexander Dubcek,
the former chairman of the Federal Assembly, said that a
referendum is the only legitimate way to decide whether
Czechoslovakia should split into two states.  Dubcek insisted that
such an important question should not be left in the hands of
political parties.  Czech Prime Minister Vaclav Klaus, speaking
with reporters in Prague, said that a referendum is a possible
option but noted that referendums were never held at critical
points in Czechoslovakia's history.  A public opinion poll
released on 23 July indicates that more than 80% of Czechs and
Slovaks want a referendum; only 16% of the respondents in both
republics said they were in favor of two independent states. (Jiri
Pehe)

GENSCHER SEES BOTH CZECHOSLOVAK STATES AS SUCCESSORS. In an
interview published in Rude pravo on 25 July, former German
Foreign Minister Hans-Dietrich Genscher said that in case
Czechoslovakia splits into two new states, both should be regarded
as successors to the Czechoslovak-German Friendship Treaty. The
treaty was signed in February and has been ratified by both the
Czechoslovak and German parliaments. Genscher also said that the
same policy of joint succession should apply to Czechoslovakia's
association accords with the European Community. (Jiri Pehe)
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Date:         Tue, 28 Jul 1992 13:12:06 MDT
From:         Pavel Vachek <TKPV@CSEARN.BITNET>
Subject:      Did the Chartists risk anything?

On Tue, 28 Jul 1992 07:27:00 +0100 Mr. Marian Kubaska@CSBBYS51 said:
>It is easy to fight again communism, when you have western dollar budget
>to live from. I dont intend to opose the fact that freedom is worthy
>to fight for. I'm one of the students who gave support to idea of democracy
>in 1989. I'd like to point out that students had pretty much to loose.
>Had the chartist ? I'd like to point out that our parents had good
>deal of responsibility to their children so they couln't opose the
>regime.

Mr. Kubaska seems to imagine the Charter 77 supporters as rich men
with dollar accounts who had nothing to lose by their dissent
(probably because they lived in the West ?). However, by far the
most of the Charter 77 supporters were ordinary people living in
Czechoslovakia who did have "pretty much to lose" - and they did
lose their jobs, their health, months and years of their lives
(and sometimes even their lives - see Prof. Patocka or others) in
jail or being harassed by the State Security just for signing the
Charter 77 Declaration.

Perhaps they were convinced that this is also a part of their
responsibility: not only for the material well-being of their children
but also for being a good example to them; responsibility for their
own souls and for the whole community in their country.

I should recommend Mr. Kubaska to read some materials issued by VONS
(Vybor na obranu nespravedlive stihanych - Committee for Defending
the Unjustly Persecuted) to learn something about the Charter 77
supporters, their lives and their children.

Best regards,
Pavel Vachek, Prague, Czechoslovakia.
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Date:         Thu, 23 Jul 1992 17:31:11 EDT
From:         Henry Kucera <HENRY@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Havel

  There were two Schwarzenbergs, the old man and the young one. Which one fell
asleep? (The old one died recently, I think). H.K.
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Date:         Wed, 29 Jul 1992 16:28:00 N
From:         FALK2399@DS0RUS54.BITNET
Subject:      Veritas vincit!

>Mr.Ceska, the what-would-be-if kind of question is inapropriate in the
>context of history events.
>Nobody can know, neather do I, what would Slovaks do if they play Czech
>part.
>I only criticized your lets-fight mood in light of real historical events.
>Would you please explain ... what alternative response would you accept...
>There was one response of Slovak republic in 39 when Hungaria invaded
>Slovakia, for instance. That kind of response I would expect and accept
>in 39 and 68.
>respectfully
>    Marian Kubaska

Mr Kubaska, I am a native Czech, so I basically back the Czech attitudes
in the events of 1938, 1948, 1968 as a particular strategy developed
by a small nation that has frequently found itself in an unfavourable
geopolitical position over the centuries. Nevertheless I certainly wish the
Czechs would have reacted in 1948 just like they did in 1968 by taking
to the streets. You have probably as small a chance to change
the orbit of the Earth by kicking it as the Czechs alone had to keep
Hitler's Germany and Stalin's and Brezhnev's Soviet Union off the
CS border. The Czech history is a good enough lesson the Czechs
have learned.From armed struggle during Hussite times almost 600 years ago
they have progressed to reaching solutions peacefully and minimizing
losses (especially in hopeless situations).

Being a dynamic system every nation developes its specific responses
to given political events under both inner and outer forces. So the
Czech nation changed between 1948 and 1968 as well. So did the Slovak nation in
some way, I should think.

As for the Hungarian invasion of the Slovak republic in 1939, shame on me
I really don't know what the response of the Slovak republic was! Your providing
an overview would be highly appreciated! Particularly what in your opinion
would have been a better response on the Slovak and Czech part to the invasion
of the "five brotherly armies" in 1968?

Regards,

M. Havranek, Stuttgart, FRG
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Date:         Wed, 22 Jul 1992 06:22:00 -0700
From:         Adolf Ceska <aceska@CUE.BC.CA>
Subject:      Re: Havel
X-To:         Discussion of Slovak issues <SLOVAK-L@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu>

Dear Roman Martonak,

Do you think that Mr. Sladek is better than Mr. Havel ?
Did not he (Sladek) get some support from Slovak members of parliament ?

Adolf Ceska
Victoria, B.C.
Canada
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Date:         Wed, 29 Jul 1992 07:50:00 +0100
From:         KUBASKA@CSBBYS51.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Marian Kubaska's epistles

dear Mr.Ceska
It was no my intention to make you unsure about your english.
It was no my intention to dehonest the chartist.
My intention was to assure you that there are lot of other brave people.
My intention was to avoid anybody to create another communists and
another Lenins.
Finaly, I'd like to say:
  If anybody wants to find Husaks,Bilaks,... even in anticommunist
mostly catholic nations, he will find them.
  Dirty dozen exist anywhere and allways. The point is who gave them
way in free ellections.

Respectfuly
       Kubaska
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Date:         Tue, 28 Jul 1992 11:45:18 EST
From:         HAMMERL@UCS.INDIANA.EDU
Subject:      Division
X-To:         slovak-l@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu

$
NEGOTIATIONS ON THE DIVISION OF CZECHOSLOVAKIA.  On 27 July Czech
and Slovak parliamentary leaders Milan Uhde and Ivan Gasparovic
met in Bratislava to discuss the prospective split of
Czechoslovakia into two countries, CSTK reported.  They agreed to
establish a number of commissions that will deal with issues
related to the economy, foreign policy, defense, and civil rights.
Until 14 August the commissions will be composed only of experts;
after that date, the experts will be joined by deputies from both
republican parliaments.  The two leaders hope to complete the
negotiations on the division of Czechoslovakia by the end of
September. (Jiri Pehe)

CANDIDATES FOR CZECHOSLOVAK PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS.  Three
candidates have met the registration deadline and will compete in
the third round of Czechoslovak presidential elections on 30 July,
CSTK reports.  They are Zdenek Prochazka of the Republican Party,
Zdenek Pinta of Movement 90, and Marie Kristkova of the
Liberal-Social Union. All three candidates were proposed by
individual deputies rather than by political parties.  Vaclav
Havel's reelection bid was defeated in the first round of the
presidential elections on 3 July. Miroslav Sladek, chairman of the
extreme right-wing Republican Party, failed to win the election
two weeks later. Czechoslovakia has been without a president since
Havel's resignation on 17 July. (Jiri Pehe)

MECIAR WARNS HUNGARY. In a 25 July radio statement, Slovak prime
minister Vladimir Meciar warned Hungary to expect "negative
consequences" in bilateral relations if Budapest meddles in
Bratislava's minority policy, Radio Budapest reported on the same
day.  Meciar was reacting to an earlier statement by a leader of
Slovakia's Hungarian Christian Democratic Movement to the effect
that his movement would turn to the Hungarian government and to
international organizations should minority rights not be observed
in an independent Slovakia.  (Alfred Reisch)

SLOVAKIA NO THREAT TO HUNGARY. According to an analysis by
Hungary's Security Policy and Defense Research Center published on
25 July in Magyar nemzet, a breakup of Czechoslovakia and the
emergence of an independent Slovak army would not represent an
increased threat to Hungary's security.  The experts say Slovakia
could become a natural ally of Hungary and the latter should seek
to reduce Bratislava's mistrust by proposing an "open skies"
agreement similar to the one between Hungary and Romania. (Alfred
Reisch)
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Date:         Thu, 23 Jul 1992 07:08:00 +0100
From:         KUBASKA@CSBBYS51.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Havel

Dear Adolf Ceska!

Your question was addressed to Mr.Martonak, but I would answer as well.
I think that Mr.Sladek is not better than Mr. Havel.
And to your second question : What kind of support Mr.Sladek got from
Slovak members of parliament, that I dont know. But I know that parties
like Sladek's SPR-RSCS and Communist party of Bohemia&Moravia didn't
succed in Slovakia (There are Neo-fascist and Communist parties as well,
but they didn't pass to Slovak parliament with 0.2%).
Would Czech parliament be better off without SPR-RSCS ?
Do you consider SPR-RSCS to be neo-fascist? ( And if the answer would
be YES, whose is it shame ?)

Marian Kubaska, Banska Bystrica, Czecho-Slovakia
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Date:         Wed, 29 Jul 1992 11:34:00 +0100
From:         KUBASKA@CSBBYS51.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Skvorecky's article

Mr.Szelepcsenyi
I greatly appreciate the first half of your contribution. It is really of
no use to blame each other. If I blame Czech part in my previous contribu
tions, then it was only because I have to defend Slovak point.
But I agree with you, that such game is ridiculous.
Anyway, I've got to disaree with you in your oppinion about C-S relations.
I think that Slovakia is burden for Bohemia because, as you know, there
is a deficit in slovak and federal budget, and surplus in czech budget.
Slovaks want to make political and economical decisions independently,
so that Czechs will have no influence to interfere some important
question.
This is realy question of money not of friendship, in this case Mr.Klaus
is the one who is right not Mr.Meciar.

Respectfuly
   Marian Kubaska
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Date:         Tue, 28 Jul 1992 00:35:00 -0700
From:         Adolf Ceska <aceska@CUE.BC.CA>
Subject:      Marian Kubaska's epistles
X-To:         slovak-l@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu

Mr. Kubaska,

I am not sure, if it is your logic or my poor knowledge of English that
I don't understand your points. I agree with you that chartists did not
have too much to lose. They usually lost everything once they signed
the Charter. The fact that you as a student had much more to lose does
not make you a greater hero. I do understand your effort to tell us
that our parents had a responsibility to their children and thus did
not fight when Hitler invaded "Bohemia," did not fight in 48 or 68.
C~istky are good, if I am doing them, but bad, if they are done by
the opposition. It was "Prague," who gave us Bilak, Husak, Siroky, Lenart
etc., "Bratislava" had nothing to do with them. They were not any better
or worse than Gottwald, Novotny, Cepicka, Kapek, but they were Slovaks
involved in the politics of centralism. You can question whether or not
Veritas vincit, but only after you have some idea what Veritas is.

Adolf Ceska
Victoria, B.C. Canada
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Date:         Thu, 23 Jul 1992 07:17:00 +0100
From:         KUBASKA@CSBBYS51.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Havel

To H.K's contribution.
I, personaly, understand competency as an ability to build something up
But if HK understands it as the ability to break something down (Communism
, economy and Czecho-Slovak relations, for instance), I wouldn't oppose,
that Mr.Havel's advisors are the competent ones.

Marian Kubaska
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Date:         Wed, 29 Jul 1992 08:29:00 +0100
From:         KUBASKA@CSBBYS51.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Did the Chartists risk anything?

dear Mr.Vachek,
I'm not if-I'm-poor-let-others-are-poor-too kind of man.
I don't see all of chartists ringing by dollars in their packets when I'm
asleep. I consider them to be respectworthy men, who suffered with their
families just because they have the power to oppose regime.
But let's be serious. Did the West have the interest to defeat communist
threath? If the answer is Yes than Would the West do anything for it?
There are two possible answers. NO-the west will do nothing just wait
the communism to be defeated by its own misleading policy and economy.
                                Yes-in that case What will be the next
steps like? To support some kinds of opposition ? The broadcasting RFE
was donated. Were CS disidents as well?
When I faced the facts that some of disidents gave 50.000 -200.000 KCS
to humanity organisations, I came to conclusion Yes.
Understand me, I don't criticise the fact that charta77 was donated,
I criticise blind faith and making new untouchables.

Respectfuly
 Marian Kubaska, Banska Bystrica , Czecho-Slovakia
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Date:         Wed, 29 Jul 1992 20:46:16 EDT
From:         Henry Kucera <HENRY@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Veritas vincit!

>Posted on 29 Jul 1992 at 10:29:42 by BrownVM Mailer (103837)
>
Mr. Havranek writes (among other things):

>Mr Kubaska, I am a native Czech, so I basically back the Czech attitudes
>in the events of 1938, 1948, 1968 as a particular strategy developed
>by a small nation that has frequently found itself in an unfavourable
>geopolitical position over the centuries. Nevertheless I certainly wish the
>Czechs would have reacted in 1948 just like they did in 1968 by taking
>to the streets........
>Regards,
>
>M. Havranek, Stuttgart, FRG


Dear Mr. Havranek, I don't want to dispute your thoughtful posting
but only supplement it for the sake of the historical record.

To give credit where credit is due, the Prague students *did* go into
the streets in February 1948, and in impressive numbers at that.
They attempted to march to the Hradcany castle with the idea of
petitioning President Benes not to let Gottwald establish a Communist
government. They were quite brutally repulsed by the police and
thus ineffective. If you know the geography of Prague, marching to
the castle over the bridges and the narrow streets was probably not
the best strategy.  Nevertheless, this was *not* just a youthful
protest on the part of the students and but a logical consequence of
their political orientation. In January 1948,  elections for a student
government took place in all Czech universities and, as was
customary at that time, they were necessarily politically oriented
(along the four parties then active). The Communists lost these
elections badly and a non-Communist student government was
established in Prague (with the late Emil Ransdorf as Chairman--he
died in exile) which, unfortunately did not last more than a month.

  As a participant in all these events, I have always had the
impression that the Communist coup of 1948 was a coup of the
middle-aged and older generations, not of the young (that, perhaps,
was another reason why Gottwald chose the timing). The members of
the "workers' militias" who marched through Prague were men in
their 40's and the throng that cheered Gottwald at the Old Town
Square was, on the average, even older. I would venture to say that
the young people, the students in particular, were strongly opposed
to the coup at that time. That is also why such large percentage of
the 1948 emigration were students and other young people.

With best regards, H.K.
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Date:         Thu, 30 Jul 1992 07:09:00 +0100
From:         KUBASKA@CSBBYS51.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Veritas vincit!

I just tried to say, that person of f.Tiso has to be subject of
history investigation. He played positive part in Slovak past and negative
one as well.
I know some hystory facts and decision f.Tiso had made, but I don't know
background of the situation in those days.
Because of this I'm not able to consider f.Tiso's role in Slovak and
Czecho-Slovak history.
Slovak state in 39 and Slovak republic in 92 are two different things.

respectfuly
   Marian Kubaska
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Date:         Thu, 23 Jul 1992 08:17:00 +0100
From:         KUBASKA@CSBBYS51.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Havel

I'don't know the exact source ( name of statistic institution) of H.K.'s
given per cents of Mr.Havel popularity. I also think, that personal
popularity and presidential popularity are two different thinks.( Michael
Jackson is popular, but who would want him to be president of USA. Excuce
me this stupid example).So I would appreciate what kind of popularity had
HK in mind. If the second one, than Mr.Havels popularity was under 30%, to
my best knowledge.(I can post you exact numbers and source).
One more time I repeat it is unproper to accuse Slovak National Party
, HZDS and SDL from communism. (Communism in slovakia crashed down in
1992 election, when Union of communism of Slovakia and Communist party '90
got under 1%. I would also remind you 1946 election, when communism failed
in Slovakia too, but because of ill defined state, it was imported to
Slovakia from Bohemia.)
And to international help. I think that money are not a main issue that
Slovak republic need
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Date:         Sat, 25 Jul 1992 04:46:16 MDT
From:         Milan PALUS <PCPMP@CSEARN.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Forwarded mail for LISTS.SLOVAK-L

> Paul Mego refers to the practice of Communist "democratic centralism" from
>Prague.Ironically, the longest practioner of Communist "democractic centralism"
> by far (20 years) was Gustav Husak, a Slovak. Just one of the ironies of a
> confused history.

>    Regards, H.K.

Excuse me, but I don't understand what is the argument.

Sincerely,
M. Palus
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