From: leej@sgi.com (Lee Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Re: Speaking of Omaha
Date: 11 Nov 1992 01:02:31 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: diver.asd.sgi.com
Keywords: Omaha

In article <1992Nov10.063022.22083@RedBrick.COM> jfr@RedBrick.COM () writes:
>

First off, thanks to Jon for a very imformative primer to Omaha/8 or better.
If I find a hard-copy of this at Garden City, I'm tearing it up :-)

There are a couple of things I'd like to add:

>  The best starting hand for Omaha IMHO is AAK2 with the A2 and the AK
>  both suited.  This has myriad options.  Always think about an Omaha

I've only read one book on Omaha8.  It's by "Payne" - and is no great
work of literature, but until Malmuth's book comes out it will have to do.
It says that A2A3 twice suited is the best possible - I tend to agree.
The two things the AKA2 offers you that the previous one doesn't is the 
high straight and the King-high flush - both of which are subject to being
expensive second best hands.  The AA23 combination offers two nut flushes,
but (more importantly I believe) offers you massive protection from having
your low counterfeited (i.e. one of your low cards hitting the board).  
Payne's book gives you a lot of the numbers, which I don't remember exactly,
but having that A-2-3 combination goes a long way to insuring you've got
the nut low.

>  hand as up to 6 separate starting hands each made up of two cards.  
>  As a general rule, I like to have at least two and preferably three
>  playable starting combinations before I call the flop.  Playable
>  starters are typically the same that you'd find in Hold-em for high
>  and 8-qualifier for low.  These include:
> 
>   For High:
>
>     Any pair (although below a jack starts to get questionable)
Agreed.  If it ain't paint, count it like "half" a combination or something.

>     AK (preferably suited)
>     AQ (preferably suited)
>     Ax (suited)
>     KQ (preferably suited)
>     Kx (suited)
>     any two suited and in connection range
>  
>   For Low:
>
>     A2 (any three higher cards under a 9 and you have a lock low)
>     A3 (very good, but you'd like to see a 2 on board)
>     A4 (sometimes okay, and if suited works for high as well)
>     23 (good, but you'd like to see an Ace on board)
>     24 (marginal unless suited in which case it works for high as well)
>     34 (this is really the outside limit unless suited)

I disagree with the last two even being in the list.  They are a good way
to come up with a second best hand.  Remember, by the time the river card
hits, the nut low and the nut (or near nut) high are going to be trading
salvo's (see Jon's section on "whipsawing") and you're caught in between.
As he points out, even with the absolute nut low, you run a risk
of getting quartered.

>  Another good hand is A234.  If any are suited, so much the better
>  since it works high and low.  If you have two sets of suited, you
>  are that much more ahead.

Being double suited may be *worse* than just having the ace suited.
Making a 4-high flush in Omaha is a good way to lose some chips (unless
of course that combination gets you the nut low and a free look at the
high half of the hand).

>
>  Bad things to play are middle cards.  Typical losing hands start out
>  looking like JJ63.  This is a disaster unless you hit a set of jacks
>  on the flop (2 out of 48).  Be careful not to get deluded.  If a 
>  pair of 6s come on the flop but no jack, you've got a set of sixes,
>  nothing more, since you can't use the two jacks in your hand with
>  the six.  Beginners miss this and think full house.  We take their
>  money :-)  

Right.  A lot of people treat 7-8-9-10 twice suited as a premium hand.
You've got essentially no low possibility and your straights and flushes
are just not that pretty.  You can clearly flop a nut straight, but if 
you do, you're after half the pot because a low is already there.   10-high
flushes simply can't stand up to much pressure (as Jon points out 
elsewhere).

>
>  Sometimes you can play a "hunch" and stay for the flop on good
>  straight draw cards in the middle, particularly if at least two
>  are suited, like Jh-10d-8h-7c.  This is generally a pretty cruddy
>  hand, but it might occasionally be worth a stay if you are small
>  blind or if you are last to act and everyone has stayed with no
>  raises.  If you get a "miracle" flop like Qc-9d-3s, you have the
>  nut straight and can raise all you like.  At this point, low seems
Wrong.  You have a big straight draw.  However, only an 8 makes you the 
nut straight, and unless it's the 8 of hearts, you're looking at a flush
draw on the last card.  You'd rather see a flop like 5c-6d-9s, which *does
give you the nut straight, and some protection (like retaining the nut
straight if (e.g.) a 7 hits).

Bob Ciaffone's Omaha book describes a slightly different scenario where
you flop the nut flush and all you can do is check and pray.  He points
out that with two suited cards in the flop, you've got something like 
7 out of 44 cards that still leave you with the nuts on 4th street.  That
doesn't take into account the hi-low aspect of the game where you may be 
conceding half the pot very early in the hand.

General thoughts:

One of my biggest problems playing Omaha is flopping things like top two
pair or second or third set (trips).  In hold 'em (my normal game), you
have a *big* hand and can play it as fast as you like - second set is 
even sufficiently powerful to play slowly if the board isn't threatening.
In Omaha, you have got serious problems with those hands.  If the board
pairs above your set, you stand a very good chance of getting shown a better
full house, and that can get expensive.

Reiterating what Jon said:
In a typical loose Omaha game, it's not uncommon for 6-8 people to see
the flop.  When that happens, if you're not looking at the nuts in your
hand when the flop hits, somebody will be.  Act accordingly.  

Regards, Lee
Newsgroups: rec.gambling