HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: vadim@thnext.SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Vadim Kaplunovsky)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Illegal activities by Zoro.Cis.Temple.Edu and Zaphiris Christidis
Date: 14 Aug 92 09:09:38 GMT

In article <1992Aug13.143337.25546@cs.mun.ca> brian@garfield.cs.mun.ca (Brian  
Paquet) writes:
> ...[Mutlu] is making a fool out
> of himself...

Nothing wrong with that.  He IS a fool, so let everybody see him for what
he is.  Unfortunately, he also make Turkiye (sp?) look like a turkey of a
country:-(

--
******************************************************************
Vadim Kaplunovsky,		| vadim@bolvan.ph.utexas.edu
Assistant Professor of Physics,	| Currently posting as
University of Texas at Austin	| vadim@thnext.slac.stanford.edu
From: muh@physics20 (Yury M. Mukharsky)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: You thought bugging diplomats were history?
Date: 21 Aug 92 23:47:23 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics20.berkeley.edu

In article <9208212128.AA16251@enea.se> "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.iupui.edu> writes:
>We know of several cases of embassies and consulates which
>were bugged in the old Soviet Union. Often the bugging
>equipment was put there during the construction of the house.
>
>"Sure", you say with a yawn, "but the cold war is over. That
>doesn't happen any longer."
>
>Oh so naive we can be. A new case has been revealed just

That is true indid. Do you really think inteligence (aka espionage) is over
with the end of cold war? I do not know if I should refer to classics of
spy novels, like Le Carre, but it seems to me that bugging of even
allies's embasies was quite common for both sides of Iron Curtain. 

Certanly last spy will die at least after last general, if general has
at least drop of wisdom. Did any of this events happened already?

As for story with embassy, I can see two lessons: 

Do not be stupid to let you be bugged.

Do not be stupid to get caught.

Yury
From: hlynka@server.uwindsor.ca (Myron Hlynka)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Standing Trial (was re: a question)
Date: 19 Aug 1992 14:29:01 GMT
Organization: University of Windsor, Ontario, Canada

Mikhail Zeleny <zeleny@HUSC9.HARVARD.EDU> writes

>from
>1917 to 1920 over 100,000 Jews were murdered during pogroms, most of which
>were conducted by uniformed members of the Ukrainian army.  Of my own
>immediate family, at least two men were killed and one woman raped by
>Petliura's troops

The INDIVIDUALS involved were indeed murderers and should have been 
executed. 

It is curious that the English language Russian pro Czarist publications
of 1920 complain that it is not fair that the Jewish community in 
Ukraine at the time was blaming most of the pogroms on the pro Czarist 
army and soldiers. I cna't give the name of publication, but there are
copies in the University of Alberta library. 

An eyewitness account of the situation at the time was written by Arnold
Margolin, "Ukraine and Policy of the Entente", who was the minister of
Jewish Affairs in the Ukrainian Government (a post requested by the 
Jewish minority in Ukraine). An English translation of the book was 
published in 1977. If the book is not available in your university 
library, you should be able to get it on interlibrary loan. I remember 
that the University of Alberta library has a copy. In his book, Margolin 
talks about Petlyura's orders that any Ukrainian soldier caught abusing 
any member of the Jewish community would be liable to severe punishment, 
including death. Margolin says that in at least one case, a Ukrainian 
soldier was sentenced to death and shot for that reason. Margolin felt that 
Petlyura should have acted more forcefully than he did, but that 
Petlyura did demonstrate that he was pro Jewish. 

>   I note that Shalom Schwartzbard, who assasinated Simon
>Petliura in Paris on May 25, 1926, was acquitted by the French court, to
>whose judgment he voluntarily submitted himself.  

Many in the Ukrainian community think that Schwartzbard was a 
paid Bolshevik agent. There is a long history of asassination of
Ukrainian nationalists by Soviet agents. There was Melnik(?) in 
1938 in Rotterdam. In the 1960's, Bandera and Rebet were assassinated
by a Soviet agents in Munich(?). 

It is possible that Schwartzbard decide to try to avoid being 
convicted of murder by trying to blame the pogroms in Ukraine on
Petlyura. If Margolin's evidence, and other historical documents had been 
available at the time, the court decision might have been different. 

cordially,
myron Hlynka
From: muh@physics.Berkeley.EDU (Yury M. Mukharsky)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: a question
Date: 15 Aug 1992 00:43:28 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Aug13.161243.8941@Princeton.EDU> vgurarie@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Victor V. Gurarie) writes:
>
>friend. Everybody knows that Lithuanians (together with Ukranians and Poles)
>on the average were very glad to turn in Jews to Germans during the second
>world war, and they broke all the records in this business, even in compari-
>son with Germans themselves, who after all just did what it was told to them
>by Nazi propaganda, while above mentioned nations did that voluntary and
>with joy. And my question is whether Estonians (or Latvians) also did the
>same, or maybe not, or maybe less often, or maybe not? I want to emphisize
>I do not need answers like "Stop this $%#$, Ukranians were always the best
>friends of Jewish people", or "You are @#$#@#$#%!". I need an answer from

I would not claim the first part ("Stop this..."), because it is obviously 
wrong, although Ukrainians lived with Jews if not quite peacefully, 
but without holocausts, propaganda or not, but I agree fully with 
the second ("You are ..."), because only persons of this kind can make such
statements without any documental support, and without real need.

Yury



>someone who really knows the subject.
>  Thank you


Xref: sparky talk.politics.soviet:6879 soc.culture.soviet:6685
From: ken@Bridge.COM (Ken Hardy)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Air controllers strike
Date: 12 Aug 92 18:23:31 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.soviet
Distribution: na
Organization: Planet Earth

(I thought this would be of great interest to certain readers ...)


SOVIET AIRPORTS GEAR UP FOR AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS STRIKE AUGUST 15

   Moscow (Aug. 12) ITAR-TASS - Air traffic controllers of 86 out of
135 Russian airports are ready to go on strike at 10.00 hours Moscow
time on August 15 which would paralyse air traffic in the country,
member of the controllers' trade union Yuri Farisei told TASS on
Wednesday.  Sanitary and emergency flights will not cease, he added.

   "We are waiting for concrete steps of the government, otherwise the
all-Russian strike will become inevitable", Farisei said, admitting,
however, that not enough time remains to meet all demands.

   "We would advise the Russian president to return to Moscow from
vacation not on August 15, but a day earlier", he  recommended.

   The main demand is to create a single state committee of air traffic
controllers for the whole of the country.  The privatisation which
began in the sphere is fraught with dangerous consequences for the
safety of passengers and pilots, Farisei  said.

   The Russian prosecutor general stated that the trade union, which is
a public organisation, has no right to create the state committee.

   Trade union leaders who arrived in Moscow from all over the country
want the government to show good will and agree on a concrete deadline
for meeting the demands of controllers.  "In this case the strike will
be cancelled, or at least postponed", Farisei said.

   As far as earnings are concerned, he denied accusations that
controllers demand skyrocketing wages.  "We want that the three-partite
agreement on tariffs, signed by the government, the air transport
ministry and the trade union on May 19, be unconditionally observed",
he said.  It envisages increases in wages depending on the inflation
rate and price hikes.

   Farisei disclosed that he, as a leading specialist of the
Rostov-on-Don airport, earns 17 thousand roubles a month.  The minimal
living wage in Russia is 1,000 roubles a month.
From: JBHARLAN@INDYVAX.IUPUI.EDU (John B Harlan)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: RFE/RL Daily Reports now available on Russia list
Date: 17 Aug 92 23:15:12 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>


     The Russia & her neighbors list, Russia on ListServ@IndyCMS.IUPUI.Edu,
is now receiving a direct feed of the Radio Free Europe / Radio Liberty
Daily Report produced by the RFE/RL Research Institute in Munich.  It usually
appears at approximately 8am US ET (1300 UTC / 1400 CET).

     Anyone wishing to receive the RFE/RL Daily Report via the Russia list
is welcome to subscribe by sending the command

      Subscribe Russia <your first name> <your last name>

to ListServ@IndyCMS.IUPUI.Edu.

     RFE/RL Daily Reports are also now available via direct subscription
by sending your request (with your name and e-mail address) in the form of
an e-mail message to rferl-daily-report-request@rferl.org

                         John B. Harlan

                        JBHarlan@IndyVAX
                   JBHarlan@IndyVAX.IUPUI.Edu
                          219.289.6629
From: hlynka@server.uwindsor.ca (Myron Hlynka)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.history
Subject: Re: Standing Trial (was re: a question)
Date: 19 Aug 1992 19:47:12 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.soviet
Organization: University of Windsor, Ontario, Canada


Mikhail Zeleny <zeleny@HUSC9.HARVARD.EDU> writes
>


>I can't think of a single reason for "a paid Bolshevik agent" to surrender
>himself to the French authorities, insisting on standing trial for his
>action.  Could you suggest one?

If there were witnesses to the crime, then it would have been 
difficult to deny involvement and escape. Many people turn themselves
in under such circumstances. There would have certainly been a trial
anyway. So insisting on one is hardly a mark of having a clear 
conscience. There are lots of cases where people insist on a trial or 
hearing to clear their names with the hope that the truth will 
never be known. (Just think of U.S. politicians. 
Gary Hart to the press: Follow me. That will prove that I have
never been guilty of womanizing.), 


cordially,
myron Hlynka
From: 11856DAU@msu.bitnet ("Joe.Daubenmire")
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Visas
Date: 17 Aug 92 12:14:00 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

can anyone out there tell me howto unsubscribe from this list?
     Thanks!
Joe Daubenmire
From: RUBAN@hartford.bitnet ("Timur Y. Ruban")
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Translation from Latin
Date: 19 Aug 92 05:40:00 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

The literate translation of the latin phrase, mentioned by me in "Re:Standing
Trial" is (please correct my spelling - my knowledge of Latin is far from sa-
tisfactory):

"Ed Mortius Nihil Veritas" equals to the Russian version of

"About those who are dead say either good or nothing"

Cheers,
Timur.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.europe
From: arto@leland.Stanford.EDU (Artavazd Khachikian)
Subject: French painter vs. Mutlu
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 18:10:11 GMT

	
	1. There was a famous French painter by the name of Delacroix.

	YES/NO

	2. He had a painting called "Les images de Chios" - 
	"The Chios images" (aberrations in the name are possible -
	citing from memory).

	YES/NO

	3. This painting portrayed the massacre of the entire Greek population
	of the Chios island by the Turks.

	YES/NO
	
	Task for Mutlu: Could you please go through this statement
	aswering YES or NO. No other comments are necessary.
	If no relevant answer will be given, your failure to deny
	the statement will be implied.
From: dleschin@FEDS66.PRIME.COM (Dmitri Leschiner)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Private letter (Was: Re: Standing Trial)
Date: 23 Aug 92 02:29:16 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

>Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 07:11:10 GMT
>From: "Mikhail S. Verbitsky" <verbit@BRAUER.HARVARD.EDU>
>
>...
>Involvement of Russian ex-arystocrasy and monarchist parties
>in early Nazi activities were colossal (reference on request).
>Not a wonder since they were fiercely antisemitic.


With regard to subject mentioned, I've just got a letter from
Mark Markish, which he sent to his friend to Germany.
Mark gave me a permission to post that letter to the net.

D.

----- Begin Included Message -----

From mmarkish@feds46 Sat Aug 22 21:56:07 1992
Return-Path: <mmarkish@feds46>
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 92 21:58:46 EDT
From: mmarkish@feds46 (Mark Markish x2799)
Message-Id: <9208230158.AA09351@feds46.Prime.COM>
To: dleschin@feds46
Subject: letter to von Sohn


Dear Dr. von Sohn,

I am pleased to know you are back to Frankfurt. Since it was the first time
in your life you've been to Russia, you must have had a lot of impressions
- hopefully, good ones. What city did you like most - St.Petersburg or
Moscow? Or the trip between the two?

With regard to the negative sentiment towards Germans on the part of
some Jews in America, I am glad your experience with Russian Jews has
been free of that. As for the anti-Semitism of Russian post-Revolution
refugees and exiles (and those who stayed in Russia and experienced real
socialism), you point is very well taken.

Seven years ago, right when I arrived to Boston, a friend of mine
introduced me to the Jewish way of life in America. Among other
interesting things he said:

  - See, Jews never buy German cars. It's simply a matter of respect
   to those, who...

At that time I didn't know it was nonsence. However, respect is something
of a value these days, and I would never shun it. Moreover, I would well
understand an Auschwitz surviver, who does not want to drive a German car
or to have German friends. I know he is wrong, but I would respect his
his feelings nevertheless.

Russian anti-Semitism is not much better than this anti-German bigotry
of ours, and it is similarly understandable. Mere respect to the suffering
of that nation would quell any squabbling, but, of course, respect cannot be
imposed, only developed.

I have had a sad opportunity to experience this kind of anti-Semitism;
it is, however, incomparably more painful and shameful to witness it
exploited, by Jews and non-Jews alike, for various political and
social ends ("the rumors of pogroms ever failing to come true, our
fundraising efforts suffer a major setback"), or even without any
reason, simply as a matter of folly, ignorance, and vain babbling.

But it's hardly a task for you or me to straighten it out: human
folly is immeasurable, at least in the given environment.

My best regards, -- Mark


----- End Included Message -----
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Standing Trial (was re: a question)
From: verbit@brauer.harvard.edu (Mikhail S. Verbitsky)
Date: 21 Aug 92 02:20:28 EDT
Organization: Dept. of Math, Harvard Univ.

In article <wmelnitc.714205976@adelphi> wmelnitc@physics.adelaide.edu.au (Wally Melnitchouk) writes:
>zeleny@husc9.harvard.edu (Michael Zeleny) writes:
>
>>were conducted by uniformed members of the Ukrainian army.  Of my own
>>immediate family, at least two men were killed and one woman raped by
>
>I know of 3 of my relatives who were murdered during WWII (2 by the German
>army and one by the Soviets). Does that mean that I am justified in hating
>the guts of every living or dead German or Russian? Or that I should do my
>utmost to keep reminding Germans or Russians of what members of their
>nationality did? I personally don't think so. Such things are usually
>destructive, as are the people who do them.
>
>Wally Melnitchouk.

You are completely right: the hate to Germans or Ukrainians based on
past atrocities is hardly justified. Anyway, I did not perceive 
this hate in Mikhail Zeleny's article. He only wrote that assassination
of Petlyura was morally (and legally) justified, basing on crimes
commited by Petlyura corps. I am not sure that a murder can be justified
at all, but Petlyura's one was the nearest to being such. Our
objection is not to Ukrainians, but to their goverment which
deny to recognise Petlyura's crimes, viewing him as national hero.

Misha.
From: DMITRIIZ@templevm.bitnet (Dmitrii)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: News from xussr
Date: 12 Aug 92 20:17:27 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

The world now have 15 new countries from x-USSR. What chages are occured there?
Yelthin is a x-communist, Kravchuck is a x-communist, Nsarbyev is x-communist,
and other? What chages are there? You can blame communist for wrongdoing, but
they still  in power. Yelthin is printing rubbles to hold the army. This has a
great effect of all new countries? Distribution was centralized from Moscow,
now is from Kiev, Vilnus, Tallin, Riga, Kishenev, Minsk, Tashkent, Alma-Ata,
Dushanbe, Frunze(or a new name), Moskow, Tbilisi, Erevan and Baku. What changes
 occurred there?   Dima.
From: vadim@thnext.SLAC.Stanford.EDU (Vadim Kaplunovsky)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Muslim leaders to form islamic army for Muslim Slavs (WW3)
Date: 13 Aug 92 08:53:23 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.224633.14639@src.umd.edu> josip@src.umd.edu (Josip  
Loncaric) writes:
> ..........
> Why not try deterrence?  You know, the thing which has kept the USSR 
> and the USA from destroying each other...  Trust me, suitable
> threats work even against madmen: Saddam Hussein did not use chemical
> weapons because it's been explained to him that this would be
> unprofitable...  Why not try something similar against Milosevic?
> 
> Josip

Saddam Hussein is not truely mad, just evil and stupid.  Once he's
exhausted all other possibilities, he is capable of acting rationally.
Unfortunately, it took a bad military defeat to drive him to that extreme:-(

On the other hand, some people are truely crazy, like late Ayatolla
Homeini (sp?).  Once he decided US is a Great Satan, no amount of
force, no matter how deadly, would have forced him to yield to US on matters
he believed essential to Islam.  The only way to stop a leader like this
is to actually kill him, and then to kill his successor, etc., etc.,
or to kill so many of his followers that he is no longer capable of leading.

As to Miloshevic, I think he is much like Saddam, evil and stupid but
not really mad.  Unfortunately, he may no longer have any control over the
situation in Bosna.  It's the Bosnan Serb militias who commit all the
atrocities, not the Yugoslav/Serb army, and the militia leaders do not
care what the Belgrade government says or does, unless it uctually turns
against them.  (And it may take destruction of Belgrade to force Miloshevic
that far.)  Are those militia leaders crazy or merely stupid and evil?
I donno, but I guess it takes all kinds.

--
******************************************************************
Vadim Kaplunovsky,		| vadim@bolvan.ph.utexas.edu
Assistant Professor of Physics,	| Currently posting as
University of Texas at Austin	| vadim@thnext.slac.stanford.edu
From: cosar@MICRO.CS.UMN.EDU
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: Re: Illegal activities of alatolia.mn.org and Ahmet Cosar (III)
Date: 13 Aug 92 16:58:33 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>
Organization: University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, CSci dept.

In article <9208130012.AA18576@zoro.cis.temple.edu> zaphiri@ZORO.CIS.TEMPLE.EDU
(Zaphiris Christidis) writes:

>Is this  your apology? Very well then, we will see. You have until Friday
>to issue a public apology. It will be too late for you on Monday morning.
>

  I can apologize publicly, Zap*, and Allah would punish you
and that jerk hasan.b.mutlu for having involved me in this
dispute. I really wanted to delete mutlu's picture from
that zoro.* site because I considered him a honest man. Now
I don't.

--
   A.Cosar
_______________________________________________________
Disc space -- the final frontier!
_______________________________________________________
Xref: sparky talk.politics.soviet:6989 talk.politics.misc:39641
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Government Guarantees (was re: News from xussr)
From: zeleny@husc9.harvard.edu (Michael Zeleny)
Date: 14 Aug 92 11:07:43 EDT
Organization: The Phallogocentric Cabal

In article <TPS-L%92081400400334@INDYCMS.BITNET> 
"talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.iupui.edu> writes:

> [...]            The important thing to remember about US dolars is that
>by themselves they are worthless, just paper (perhaps not totally worthless,
>the paper itself might serve some purpose).  A dollar is only worth what
>someone is willing to give you for it (like anything else in a market
>economy).  Fortunately, the US government guarantees the bearer of each dollar
>to 1 dollars worth of goods or services.

I'll be most interested in finding out how the US government does that.

>Terence Slywka
>Indiana University ('till 8-14-92)
>
>TSLYWKA@IUBACS
>TSLYWKA@UCS.INDIANA.EDU
>MALAMUTE@AOL.COM

cordially,
mikhail zeleny@husc.harvard.edu
From: CDELL@VAX1.UMKC.EDU ("VALENTINE M. SMITH")
Newsgroups: talk.politics.soviet
Subject: A first for ...
Date: 19 Aug 92 15:29:25 GMT
Reply-To: "talk.politics.soviet via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.iupui.edu>

Date: 16 Aug 1992 01:30:12 +0000 (GMT)
From: Michael Zeleny <zeleny%HUSC9.HARVARD.EDU@MIZZOU1.missouri.edu>
Subject: Standing Trial (was re: a question)

>In article <9208151820.AA22548@feds66.Prime.COM> "talk.politics.soviet
>via ListServ" <TPS-L@indycms.iupui.edu> writes:

>a nameless ignoramus writes:

>X:
>>>Ukrainians lived with Jews if not quite peacefully,
>>>but without holocausts

DL:
>>Especially in Bohdan Khmelnitsky's times.

>The first Hetman was nothing compared to the last one (one hopes!);
>from 1917 to 1920 over 100,000 Jews were murdered during pogroms,
>most of which were conducted by uniformed members of the Ukrainian
>army.  Of my own immediate family, at least two men were killed and
>one woman raped by Petliura's troops.  I note that Shalom
>Schwartzbard, who assasinated Simon Petliura in Paris on May 25,
>1926, was acquitted by the French court, to whose judgment he
>voluntarily submitted himself.  A similar judgment was rendered in
>1921 by the Weimar Republic court in Berlin in the case of the
>Armenian assassin Tehlirian, who put an end to the life of the
>genocidal Turkish murderer Talaat Bey, likewise insisting on standing
>trial for his act.  There is a lesson here for our gutless, anomic
>times; I hope that it won't be lost on my audience.

This is the first direct incitement to assassination (though the
targets are unclear) I've read on the nets in three years. Your
"lesson" is indeed NOT "lost" on this reader, I think there HAS to be
a better solution to men like Petliura than murder. Your citing of
the bankrupt, rightist-leaning Weimar courts does not give credence
to your "argument," or so it would seem to this writer. I DO feel
that you have a right to bitterness for the murders and rapes done to
your family, but two wrongs do NOT make a right - assassinating the
obnoxious leaders of regions or countries will stop the barbarities
they set in motion, whether that be George Bush, D. Dudayev, Saddam
Hussein, Moammar Quaddaffi, or the late Petliura. Killing is not a
credible solution to the worst situation, for solving problems in
such a manner steps the would-be murderer right down in the mud with
those they would kill. No specific criticism of the writer is
intended, but of the idea that "justified homicide" ought to be
acceptable. Who decides?

>cordially,
>mikhail zeleny@husc.harvard.edu
>"Nous donnons la mort, nous saurons la subir."

Not so cordially, VMS