From: faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris)
Subject: Re: Reason vs. Morals
Reply-To: a.Faris@trl.oz.au 
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne,Australia
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 22:07:24 GMT

In article <1992Oct5.041216.1381@cs.umb.edu>, ahmad@ra.cs.umb.edu (Ahmad Hashem) writes:
|> 
|> In article <1992Oct4.223545.1@opie.bgsu.edu> bc205cs@opie.bgsu.edu writes:
|> >I agree with (dare I say it?) Martillo when he stated the driving forces of
|> >Western thought to be reason and humanity
|> 
|> Reason, maybe, but "humanity"?  What "humanity" is this that resulted in 
|> colonialism?  What "humanity" is this that produced a philosopher like Hobbes
|> who says that in the state of nature there is war between everyone and 
|> everyone?

Well Hobbs is indeed correct. If you consider man as another entity, as part
of the environment surrounding him, competition will force him to be at war
with everyone. Every living entity is subjected to that competition.

If Humanity were to be driven by humanitarian forces alone, competition will
cease to exit and society will struggle. On the other hand, if humanity is
driven by reason and a moral code, society will have a better chance of
survival.

Colonialism does not reley on humanitarian forces, it does reley on the need
for a society to thrive while applying reason and a moral code. The moral code
is infact based on religious beleifs.

|> 
|> >I believe that an absolute adherance to reason abolishes morals, so they can't
|> >co-exist, so my question is, which is right.
|> 
|> Well, I disagree with your premiss.  This is precisely where, I am 
|> convinced, the West fails and Islam succeeded.  What is your reason to 
|> say they can't "co-exist"?  Al-jaHeZ, the great Muslim philosopher and 
|> scientist, used to say "Hayat al-Hilm bi-al'ilm."  If "al-Hilm" is taken 
|> to represent morality, this statement could be translated to "morality thrives
|> with science/knowledge."  It is this idea of the oneness of morality
|> and science that, to me, reflects a highly civilized culture.  I really do not

Adherence to reason does abolish morality. The greatest proof is the former
soviet union. The soviets developed a society that was solely based on
philosophical reasoning fueled by Communist ideals. The soviets in all
instances lacked any moral judgement when dealing with issues related to
the survival of the state.

As to which is right, it entirely depends on the outcome that one desires.
In the natural environment reason will produce a better fit society that is
able to have a higher chance of survival. An entirely moral society is less
likely to survive against all odds.

|> measure civilization by power (derived from science).  I measure it 
|> by the ability to marry power/science with morality.  For example, to 
|> Nietzsche the ideal is the "Will to Power" i.e., to actualize one's power.
|> It is perfectly OK, according to his "master" morality, to crush the "slaves"
|> during one's will to power.  Islam, OTOH, seems to emphasize an ideal of
|> the self-constraint of the powerful, not merely actualizing your
|> power.  In fact, in Islam the more powerless those around you the more
|> commendable your kind treatment to them would be: "And they feed, for the 
|> love of God, the indigent, the orphan, and the captive, (saying), 'We feed 
|> you for the sake of God alone; no reward do we desire from you, nor 
|> thanks'" (76:8-9).
|> 
|> So the bottom line, Joshua, I think reason and morality meet in Islam.
|> 
|> Peace, Ahmad

Islam sought to perfect the previous religions (Judaism, Christianity), but
it is not and will never be practiced based on reasoning and morality. I veiw
Islam as another religion that attempted to tame the competitive nature of
the human race. Islam did come closer than the other religions strictly because
of the sever nature of its laws. If you remove those laws its reason and moral
values will be just like its predecessors. I think Islam tends to be more
idealistic and seems to bond reason and morality, but they are not fused.

A.Faris
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic