HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: johnsd2@lib106.its.rpi.edu.its1 (Daniel Norman Johnson)
Subject: Re: Need to convince boss 486's are *not* w
Reply-To: johnsd2@lib106.its.rpi.edu.its1
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 23:24:03 GMT

In article Fv9@world.std.com, kaya@world.std.com (Kaya Bekiroglu) writes:
>In article <hbl3vh+@rpi.edu> johnsd2@jec315.its.rpi.edu.its1 writes:
>>In article 1jq628INN545@flop.ENGR.ORST.EDU, mcgredo@prism.CS.ORST.EDU (Don McGregor) writes:
>>>In article <f-k39qq@rpi.edu> johnsd2@lib102.its.rpi.edu.its1 writes:
>>>>
>>>>They do if they want to change the login tiff. If the preferences
>>>>panels can do this, then I will withdraw my objection.
>>>>
>>>Oh, fer crying out loud.  Somebody write a friggin applet to do this.
>>>Should take an hour or two.  Would have full NeXTSTEP compliance, a
>>>correct open panel, correct mouse button behavior, and probably
>>>drag and drop.
>>>
>>>(My NeXT is getting packed up this weekend or i'd do it myself.)
>>>
>>
>>If you can get NeXT to include it with the system, that would do it.
>>
>>If not, it's not really very relevant- if they haven't got it, they
>>can't use it.
>
>They wouldn't do that because it is unsupported.  It is unsupported
>because they want to reserve the right to fiddle with it, replace 
>it, or delete it all together.  Perhaps it is unsupported because
>they don't want users to screw it up, until they can flesh it
>out more?  Or do you want them to remove it altogether?

If they wont even claim that it will work, then yes. But it would
be better to support the damn thing.

---
			- Dan Johnson
And God said "Jeeze, this is dull"... and it *WAS* dull. Genesis 0:0

These opinions have had all identifiying marks removed, and are untraceable.
You'll never know whose they are.
From: johnsd2@lib102.its.rpi.edu.its1 (Daniel Norman Johnson)
Subject: Re: Need to convince boss 486's are *not* w
Reply-To: johnsd2@lib102.its.rpi.edu.its1
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 03:09:06 GMT

In article 27892@fcom.cc.utah.edu, yf5990@u.cc.utah.edu (Yan Fang/Humanities) writes:
>In article <b#m3w6m@rpi.edu> johnsd2@lib106.its.rpi.edu.its1 writes:
>>
>>If the user can destroy his system without wishing to do so,
>>that is a flaw.
>
>If a driver can destroy his car without wishing to do so, that is a flaw.

I agree. But I dont see how this flaw can be fixed. I ->DO<- see how the
flaw in the NeXT we are talking about can be fixed. It seems trivial.
Nobody has pointed out to me yet what it is that makes it so hard to live
without that tiff.

>Car manufacturers have a responsibility to their drivers not to let harm
>come to them. In fact, if a driver kills himself by doing something not
>officially supported by the manufacturer, like driving 120 mph in a blizzard
>down a highway during rush hour blindfolded, steering the car with his feet,
>then it is the manufacturer's responsibility because the driver wasn't
>prevented from doing so by features of the car.

"responsibility"?

I am not saying you should sue NeXT for this. :)

But it is a flaw that the car was destroyed in the course of its
operation. Ideally, the car would just bounce off. Or automatically
stear around obstacles. or something.

The difference is that nobody knows how to do this, whereas fixing
the NeXTs flaw is real easy. (for NeXT that is)

>BTW, the surviving family of a drunk woman who drove her Porsche 75 mph
>around a 35 mph curve sued Porsche in the '70s for selling a car that
>encouraged people to drive fast. They won.

That's pretty silly. That's equivlanet to "lets sue NeXT for making
a computer that encourages you to customize it."

>The moral of the story: I'd rather drive a Porsche than a padded cell.

Sounds great, whatever this means.
---
			- Dan Johnson
And God said "Jeeze, this is dull"... and it *WAS* dull. Genesis 0:0

These opinions have had all identifiying marks removed, and are untraceable.
You'll never know whose they are.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: ifbb657@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Douglas Floyd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac vs NeXT was Re: Need to convince boss 486's are *not* w
Date: 24 Jan 1993 20:39:13 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX
NNTP-Posting-Host: donald.cc.utexas.edu

In article <1jtr00INNvb@shelley.u.washington.edu> tzs@stein.u.washington.edu (Tim Smith) writes:
>At some of the prices people are throwing around, you can expand your
>horizons.  HP has some workstations in those price ranges that will blow
>the socks off NeXT and Macintosh for speed.
>
>$5000 is also around what you can get a complete Sparc for from Sun.

Suns?  Bleech!!!!  WordPerfect for the stupid thing costs about $500 to
$1000.  Do not buy sun unless you like wasting money.

Mac, NeXT, MS-DOS.  (relatively) cheap to buy, and sw is easy to find,
and prices well.  All sun sw I've seen is expen$ive, and sucks.

If you like UNIX, go with A/UX or NeXTStep.



-- 
       ifbb657@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu  (Douglas Floyd)
       Disclaimer:  I speak for myself        Please, no NeXTMail at this time.

Windows NT is a great reason to WISH for a destructive virus.
From: bell@apple.com (Mike Bell)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Need to convince boss 486's are *not* w
Date: 23 Jan 93 20:59:49 GMT
Reply-To: bell@apple.com (Mike Bell)
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.

In article <1993Jan22.192352.21285@athena.mit.edu>, zmonster@athena.mit.edu 
(Eric M Hermanson) writes:

> Archetype Inc. is releasing the Archetype Document Engine for NeXT computers
> next month.  This is a document centered engine where several tools work
> togehter to complete a single document (i.e. you have a spelling tool to
> check the spelling, text tool to write the text, graphics tool to set the
> graphis, page layout tool to set up the docuement form, etc).  Document
> based computing is here TODAY, 2 years before Taligent even ships.  And it
> is only available on NeXTSTEP.
> 
> Eric


On the Mac, we call it ClarisWorks......



 -Mike


********************************************************

Mike Bell										     	       	      email: bell@apple.com
Senior Engineer
68000 High Performance Software Group
MS 60-CS
Apple Computer, Inc.
20525 Mariani Ave.
Cupertino, CA 95014

********************************************************
From: drm@esl.com (Don McGregor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: NeXT vs Mac (Again) was "Need to convince boss..."
Date: 22 Jan 93 01:07:25 GMT
Reply-To: drm@esl.com

In article <1993Jan20.154614.24012@pellns.alleg.edu>  
smytonj@murr11.alleg.edu (Jim Smyton) writes:
> 
>Great. Now I know NextSTEP 3.0 is cool. I used it today, and aside from a  
> new folder look and a funky preference file that screwed up my docks, I  
> did not see any big advantage over 2.x.  For the an office worker, which  
>is what this thread was originally about, these changes will probably not  
> mean squat.  

NeXT writes system software, not application software, just as Apple  
writes system software (Claris aside).  

The hot-links are a positive move; they're easier to implement than on the  
Mac, and hence are more likely to show up in application software.  (It's  
still fairly rare to see hot-links in Mac software because they're a bit  
baroque to implement.)  Distributed objects make it easier to write  
network-wide applications.  Renderman as a system resource is likely to  
lead to some interesting CAD programs.  DBKit makes it extremely easy to  
connect to industrial-strength databases and to write custom applications.

I'm not going to argue that NeXT is the be-all and end-all of computers;  
other platforms are better in some situations.  But the critisisms that  
were leveled at the company and the machine were simply wrong, so I  
corrected them.  NeXT's system software technology was not standing still,  
and is in fact still substantially ahead of many other companies.  The  
speed complaints are for the most part unfounded or the result of poor  
configuration choices.
> 
> Tell me when NeXT will put out hardware that is compatible with anything  
> else.The monitors use different scan rates, the printers use the  
>computer's PostScript,and this whole hooking up to a Mac network thing is  
> bupkis.  Sure the Mac sees the NeXT as another Mac, but wouldn't it be  
>nice if through all this,there was some kind of compatibility between the  
> machines?
> 
This sounds sort of like one of those amusing PC Magazine articles in  
which the authors "prove" PCs are better by measuring how well they act as  
MS-DOS PCs.  For example, using the computer's PS to rasterize hardcopy is  
a big win.  You can get later versions of PS without having to replace any  
ROMs in your printer; I upgraded from PS level 1 to PS level 2 when I got  
release 3.0.  In this case, NeXT is MORE compatible than Mac hardware,  
since, five years from now, they're still likely to conform to the latest  
and greatest PS rev, while the Mac printer hardware is likely to be  
barfing on new features. Rasterizing on the computer was a good design  
choice that allows the NeXT to push things into software...always a better  
choice from a flexibility standpoint.

--
Don McGregor | "Remember, pocket protectors leave unsightly tan
drm@esl.com  |  lines."     --PV
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: johnsd2@lib102.its.rpi.edu.its1 (Daniel Norman Johnson)
Subject: Re: Need to convince boss 486's are *not* w
Reply-To: johnsd2@lib102.its.rpi.edu.its1
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 00:56:26 GMT

In article 9646@qb.rhein-main.de, vhs@rhein-main.de (Volker Herminghaus-Shirai) writes:
>In article <z1h3lbb@rpi.edu> johnsd2@jec315.its.rpi.edu.its1 (Daniel Norman  
>Johnson) writes:
>
>[a lot of NeXT bashing deleted]

I don't recall doing any next bashing. :/

Perhaps you refer to the fact that I do not drool over
every aspect of it, and do not consider it ideal for
all tasks?

Consider this: Could it be that the NeXT has a (*gasp*)
->flaw<-?

>Interesting to note what your organisation line shows:
>
>>Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.

Ya know, this is the second time someone has tried to read something
into that. I always thought they'd look at my address and realize
I just had a funky newsreader. But no. I better see if I cant find a way
to convince it I am not from Sun. So far, I haven't bothered.
Figured it didn't matter.

>I knew Sun was afraid of NeXT but I didn't know they would bash
>NeXT on usenet (especially without a disclaimer).

Read my address.

Read my address.

Hint: The Address is johnsd2@rpi.edu  <-- notice, not .com; not sun either.

Then apologize for accusing me of being a Sun plant, and for
accusing me of promoting Suns interest in a dishonest fashion. Even if 
I ->DID<- work for Sun, you have no basis for this accusation. I have
not been promoting Sun in any way. I never have done so on the net.

>Oh, incidentally, you can make a Sun unusable as well by logging in
>as root an deleting a bunch of system files (whether their names are
>/usr/lib/NeXTSTEP/loginwindow.tiff or /vmunix or /bin/*sh doesn't
>matter).

Yes. Suns are even worse this way. But that doesn't excuse the NeXT.

---
			- Dan Johnson
And God said "Jeeze, this is dull"... and it *WAS* dull. Genesis 0:0

These opinions have had all identifiying marks removed, and are untraceable.
You'll never know whose they are.

Besides, I do have a disclaimer, see?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: howard@netcom.com (Howard Berkey)
Subject: Re: Mac vs NeXT was Re: Need to convince boss 486's are *not* w
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 21:48:40 GMT

In article <1juuphINN9fc@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> ifbb657@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Douglas Floyd) writes:
>
>Mac, NeXT, MS-DOS.  (relatively) cheap to buy, and sw is easy to find,
>and prices well.  All sun sw I've seen is expen$ive, and sucks.
>
>If you like UNIX, go with A/UX or NeXTStep.


Gotta take exception here.  You can FTP *FREE* more and better SW for
a Sun than you can currently buy for a Mac.  SunOS is run at almost
every University campus, and hence, amost any UNIX SW will compile on
a Sun.  For example, I just ported our companies product to SunOS in 3
weeks, whereas the HP port took 1.5 months.  The product used 3 third
party libs and has 802 *.c files.  SunOS is a good implementation of UNIX.

A/UX (2.0 at least) is a notoriously bad implementation of UNIX.  Try
porting to it and you will understand why.

3.0 may be better.  I don't know.

-Howard
-- 
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Howard Berkey						   howard@netcom.com
		"I AM the Lizard Queen" - Lisa Simpson
... .. ...   ... .. ...   ... .. ...    ... .. ...   ... .. ...   ... .. ...
From: grub@bbs.draco.bison.mb.ca (Gordon Grieder)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: rtaylor@cie.uoregon.edu (Russ Taylor)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 13:11:26 GMT
Organization: The Draco Unix System [BBS]

wilcoxt@cuug.ab.ca (Terrance Wilcox 229-3361) writes:

> near as much software as their is for the PC either.  PC rules!
> 
> I love to be able to cut and paste in a terminal window!
> 
> Terry Wilcox

Geez, you mean I can't cut and paste in my Mac's terminal window?
                                        --   

 I love to be able to cut and paste in a terminal window!
 I love to be able to cut and paste in a terminal window!
 I love to be able to cut and paste in a terminal window!
 I love to be able to cut and paste in a terminal window!
 I love to be able to cut and paste in a terminal window!
 I love to be able to cut and paste in a terminal window!
 I love to be able to cut and paste in a terminal window!
 I love to be able to cut and paste in a terminal window!

You don't really think I typed all those lines, do you?

A PC with DOS (or OS/2) is nice, I've got a 386 myself.
But windows????

vomit...


+---------------------------+------------------------------------------------+
|grub@bbs.draco.bison.mb.ca :"...and I spake unto the prophet, 'Oh wise one, |
|          (Gordon Grieder) :show me the way that I might burden my computer |
|   in Winnipeg, MB, Canada :with the loads of twenty thousand camels!'  and |
|       (drinking his beer) :there was Windows..."          ---Grub 01:22:93 |
+---------------------------+------------------------------------------------+
From: jkalanuk@bbs.draco.bison.mb.ca (Jeremy Kalanuk)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Mac dead?
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 03:05:15 GMT
Organization: The Draco Unix System [BBS]

In a message written whenever, holcomb@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (David Holcomb) 
wrote,

"because System 7.0 is not
[more]
 
available for the MacPlus."

You can run Sys 7 on a plus, you jsut need 2 (really 4) megs RAM and a 
HD.


---
jkalanuk@bbs.draco.bison.mb.ca (Jeremy Kalanuk)
The Draco Unix System [BBS]

Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: tinsel@uiuc.edu (Thomas Aaron Insel)
Subject: Re: Need to convince boss 486's are *not* way to go...
Originator: tai50080@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
Reply-To: tinsel@uiuc.edu
Organization: Masticating Illini, Urbana Illinois
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 16:21:10 GMT

zmonster@athena.mit.edu (Eric M Hermanson) writes:

> If they were to make the MacOS pre-emptive, all the current software would
> have to be rewritten to accomodate it.  You will never ever ever see 
> pre-emptive multitasking on a Macintosh.

No, it wouldn't.  Most mac software works just fine under A/UX, which does
offer premptive multitasking.  While it doesn't currently offer preemptive
multitasking between multiple Mac applications, I see no reason why it
couldn't be written to do so.
-- 
Thomas Insel (tinsel@uiuc.edu)
  "Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt." 
					-- Clarence Darrow
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: bgrubb@dante.nmsu.edu (GRUBB)
Subject: Re: Need to convince boss 486's are *not* way to go...
Organization: New Mexico State University, Las Cruces, NM
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 14:57:12 GMT

howard@netcom.com (Howard Berkey) writes:
>The IIci video ONLY IS CAPABLE OF 8 BIT COLOR.
WRONG!! A IIci INTERNAL BUILT-IT video is capable of 8 bit color but
the 32 quickdraw allows a NuBus card to use 32-bit color.
This was in the article I sited READ THE *&*$%# THING especially the
"To keep costs down and speed up most Macs have only 8 or 16 bit display 
capability built in, but most of those can be expanded to display 24 bit 
color." part. {That includes the IIci}

>GET A CLUE.
READ the article CAREFULLY and maybe next time you will get WHAT it is saying.
Since the point you are making {about BUILT in video} is IN the artice, it
is YOU who should get a clue.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: bcoleman@hayes.com (Bill Coleman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: YA Mac horror story
Date: 28 Jan 93 14:50:11 EDT
Organization: Hayes Microcomputer Products, Norcross, GA

In article <C1JECw.5t5@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, tinsel@uiuc.edu (Thomas Aaron Insel) writes:
> 
> PC's use ctrl-alt-delete, the Apple II used ctrl-openapple-reset, and if
> I remember some Macs use command-option-reset.  

Command-CONTROL-Power On.

Get it right....

-- 
Bill Coleman, AA4LR                ! CIS: 76067,2327    AppleLink: D1958
Principal Software Engineer        ! Packet Radio: AA4LR @ W4QO
Hayes Microcomputer Products, Inc. ! UUCP: uunet!hayes!bcoleman
POB 105203 Atlanta, GA 30348 USA   ! Internet: bcoleman%hayes@uunet.uu.net
Disclaimer: "My employer doesn't pay me to have opinions."
Quote: "The same light shines on vineyards that makes deserts." -Steve Hackett.

Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: terry@squid9.cuc.ab.ca (Terry Wilcox)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Need to convince boss 486's are *not* w
Date: 27 Jan 93 23:45:38 GMT
Reply-To: terry@squid9.cuc.ab.ca
Organization: Not Really, Inc.

In article <YfMMr6u00iV1I1zqYq@andrew.cmu.edu>  writes:
> probably be overkill, especially once you consider price.  OS/2 is here
> now, for less than NS486 will be.  For Unix support, come back in late
> summer sometime.  IBM is supposed to release a Beta of OS/2 2.x Mach
> then.  That's right, it'll use the same Mach kernal that NextStep uses
> now.
> 

OS/2 still won't be Unix. NeXTSTEP and OS/2 may both use Mach, but Mach isn't  
tied to Unix. IBM will also be using Mach in their new AIX. It'll be completely  
different from OS/2, but it'll still use Mach.

> BTW, I'm not saying NS486 is a bad thing.  I'll probably move to it when
> it comes out.  Right now, I only have a 386/40, so the beta isn't much
> of a choice yet.

Maybe NS486 isn't a bad thing, but 486's in general aren't great things. I'm  
more interested in NeXT's non-Intel hardware plans. I think that's where the  
real technological (therefore non-commercial) goodies will appear.

Terry Wilcox


-- 
Terry Wilcox		| 'Next to the originator of a good sentence 
terry@squid9.cuc.ab.ca	| is the first quoter of it.'
NeXTmail welcome	|  - RALPH WALDO EMERSON
From: ASI509@DJUKFA11.BITNET
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: OS/2, not the dream OS?
Date: 26 Jan 93 16:05:43 GMT
 <1993Jan24.025441.13350@gn.ecn.purdue.edu>
Organization: Forschungszentrum Juelich

In article <1993Jan24.025441.13350@gn.ecn.purdue.edu>, jess@gn.ecn.purdue.edu
(Jess M Holle) says:
>
>On 386's here, there have been a couple of observations about OS/2:
>
>1)  It takes MINUTES to load Word and Excel.

How many minutes? In general it takes a bit longer to load the first Windoze
apps since Windoze has to be started first. Starting more apps will be faster
unless you have choosen to run each in its own copy of Windoze.

>2)  There is no nice little watch cursor or any other feedback that
>    things are actually being loaded.

I'm not using seamless Windoze currently so I can't tell exactly. If you
are using full screen Windoze the system switches through text mode where
you can't see a hour glass. But using seamless windoze there *should* be
a clock cursor while you are in the window of the app beeing loaded. Of course
it should disappear when you move out of the window since other apps won't be
busy.

>3)  There is no easy way to see what programs are all running (at least not

>    an obvious one).

If you are speaking of background tasks (what is called daemons in UNIX speak
I think) you're right. There is a freeware utility called PSPM which does this
but it should be part of the system. Apps that were started from the Workplace
Shell are listed in the Window List. I don't know how you access minimized
windows (or views) if you don't know the windows list.

>4)  It is very easy to confuse iconicizing with quitting and thereby
>    inflict marvelous thrashing upon the disk until the swap space is
>    full.  The Mac has been accused of this problem, but the worst that
>    happens there is leaving one copy of each program running (which the
>    Finder will let you quit at the click of OK when memory runs low).
>    New users often leave 5 copies of Word running.
>
First all open views are listed in the windows list. This includes open folders
as well as command windows or DOS, Windows and OS/2 apps. Second it depends on
how the user likes his system to behave. I always use hide, so a minimized view
simply disappears. Others might like to minimize them to the desktop or the
minimized window viewer. Then you have to look for them in the minimize window
viewer or on the desktop. The desktop is probably the worst place as it will
get very crowded. I like this approach much better than the Macs, where you
can't minimize open windows at all.

Michael Bode
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: howard@netcom.com (Howard Berkey)
Subject: Re: Need to convince boss 486's are *not* way to go...
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 21:13:18 GMT

This thread is GREAT!  All the arguments the Mac fanatics are using
against the NeXT are almost identical to the arguments MS-DOG fanatics
were using against me when I evangelized the Mac several years ago.
Keep it up, guys!!!

-H-
-- 
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Howard Berkey						   howard@netcom.com
		"I AM the Lizard Queen" - Lisa Simpson
... .. ...   ... .. ...   ... .. ...    ... .. ...   ... .. ...   ... .. ...
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy