HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: toby@milton.u.washington.edu (Toby Bradshaw)
Newsgroups: rec.hunting
Subject: Re: How do I catch a woodpecker?
Date: 14 Apr 92 13:54:11 GMT
Article-I.D.: doug.1992Apr14.085411.22565
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu

[Moderator's note:  I am allowing any woodpecker posts that offer some
constructive advise.  tjr]
    
>I have been reading this whole woodpecker thread and really can't
>believe what I am reading.  Apparently only one person has figured out
>that blasting away at a woodpecker MIGHT be illegal!  I guess someone
>has to be the bad guy and pass this along, but, yes, KILLING ANY
>NON-GAME NATIVE BIRD IS ILLEGAL IN THIS COUNTRY.

Not really.  There are scientific collecting permits, at least.  The
last one I saw (in Louisiana) allowed the taking of any non-endangered
wildlife "by any means necessary" and went on to describe poison,
dynamite, etc.  Also, in many states there are "let it lay" laws
for non-game species caught by falconers' birds.  The non-game
bird may not be possessed by the falconer, but may be eaten by
the hawk/falcon in the field.  Depredation permits are available
for killing red-winged (among others) blackbirds in several states,
and such permits might be available even for woodpeckers.  Seems
a shame to kill a pileated, though.

Toby Bradshaw

>Dave Rintoul            Internet: drintoul@matt.ksu.ksu.edu
>Biology Division - KSU       BITNET: drintoul@ksuvm.ksu.edu
>Manhattan KS 66506-4901                         TCN: id2418
>(913)-532-5832 or 6663                  FAX: (913)-532-6653
From: toby@milton.u.washington.edu (Toby Bradshaw)
Newsgroups: rec.hunting
Subject: Re: .22 centerfires for deer?
Date: 9 Apr 92 13:02:12 GMT
Article-I.D.: doug.1992Apr9.080212.18528
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu

In article <1992Apr8.081249.24172@doug.cae.wisc.edu> shaffer@achilles.ctd.anl.gov (Michael A. Shaffer) writes:
>>     The basic premise of .22 centerfire advocates is, as was
>>stated, that they have energies comparable to those of handgun
>>calibers which are used to take deer.  That is true; I have the
>>same ballistic tables as everyone else.  However, energy is only
>>one (admittedly important) criterion of a bullet's performance
>>on game.  Another one is the construction of the bullet itself.
>
>Not to mention that the .44mag makes a wee bit larger hole.
>
>				mike
>

Going in, it does.  Going out, I've seen some pretty big holes
blown in the offside of a deer from a .22 centerfire even at a
couple of hundred yards.

Toby Bradshaw
Newsgroups: rec.hunting
From: toomer@CS.ColoState.EDU (christopher toomer)
Subject: RE: ARCHERY SHOOTERS
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department
Date: 13 Apr 92 08:32:00 CDT
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu

Hi everybody,
  I have noticed a few posts about archery related topics here, and
  just wanted to let everyone know that alt.archery does exist.

  Happy Hunting,
  chris
  toomer@cs.ColoState.edu



Newsgroups: rec.hunting
From: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu (rec.hunting moderator)
Subject: Moderator's comment on woodpeckers
Date: 10 Apr 92 09:23:00 CDT
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu

I have also been discouraged by the replies to the woodpecker thread.
I am beginning to wonder why I even let the original post through
since it has nothing to do with hunting.  I was hoping that the
rec.hunters would provide some nonlethal suggestions.

However, I am getting more encouraged.  After one or two posts
suggesting a .22, numerous replies have pointed out how unethical and
illegal that would be.   I believe the condemning replies are more
typcial of hunters.

I have decided to stop this thread.  It has left the realm of
rec.hunting.

Tim Rigg (Moderator of rec.hunting)
From: frampton@skitzo.dseg.ti.com
Newsgroups: rec.hunting
Subject: Re: Long-range hunting
Date: 6 Apr 92 14:20:56 GMT
Article-I.D.: doug.1992Apr6.092057.8866
Organization: Texas Instruments Component Test Facility
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu


   I've seen this discussion going nowhere fast.  

   What I do hope is that everyone is able to identify a
      shot that is just too damn far for reason, and keep looking
      through the binoculars and wish you could get a little closer.
Newsgroups: rec.hunting
From: cvacura@uswat.uswest.com (Craig Vacura)
Subject: Grizzly hunt
Organization: U S WEST Advanced Technologies
Date: 10 Apr 92 09:20:57 CDT
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu

Howdy,

I'm going to Alaska in '93 and would like some advice on Grizzly
capable calibers.  I expect it to be a once-in-a-lifetime event for me
and don't want to shortchange it.  I've got a 300 Wby Mag that I know
is usable, but is it barely adaquate, okay, preferred, or ideal?  I've
been hunting non-dangerous big game for 18 years and consider myself a
capable hunter and a good shot.  I plan to burn alot of ammo in
preparation for the hunt whether I get a new rifle or not.  If the 300
isn't up to par, what about a .338?  I could trade my 300 for a 338
and not lose much range in functionality.  I'm not against getting a
.375 or .416, but I probably wouldn't use them for anything else.  I
would most likely need to do some sort of recoil compensation too.
(5'8", 170#)

I'll probably go after Moose as well, but I don't see a power problem 
there.  If I can handle Grizzly, I can handle Moose.

I'm getting in on what is supposed to be a special deal.  My buddy's 
father, a fisherman, is setting it up with a guide he's dealt with for 
years.  He goes every few years.  His friend, a doctor, goes 4 times a 
year and gets a kind of frequent fishermans deal.  The deal is $1800 for 
10 days.  For every person over 2 the price drops $60 each, up to a total 
of 12 people.  For example, 6 people would be $1560 each.  It includes all 
transportation from Anchorage, food, shelter, license and trophy fees for 
2 big game species plus fishing.  I'm still waiting for information on 
what degree of guiding is provided.  Will it be 1 on 1, 1 on 2, or just 
one guide for the whole gang?  I guess that could be where the savings 
are.  I hope not.  We are required to bring our clothing, sleeping bag, 
personal toiletries, and a high powered handgun.  If we hunt we must bring 
our own rifles and ammunition.  Fishing gear is provided on a limited 
basis.  Does anyone have any experience or feedback on this?  Compared to 
prices I've seen at Sportsman's Shows this seems dirt cheap.

I expected to go in ten years and pay three times as much.

Here's hopin',

Craig


Newsgroups: rec.hunting
From: rrw@philabs.philips.com (Roger White)
Subject: Re: How do I catch a woodpecker?
Organization: Philips Laboratories, Briarcliff Manor, NY.
Date: 8 Apr 92 08:34:03 CDT
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu

In article <1992Apr6.092109.8917@doug.cae.wisc.edu> cvacura@uswat.uswest.com (Craig Vacura) writes:
>Same thing happened to me when I was a kid.  My folks have a log home.  At 
>about 5-5:30am these two huge woodpeckers would start banging away.  These 
>things were 10-12 inches tall and were real colorful with a wild looking 
>crest.  I was going to apply bird shot until I saw them.  They were the 
>most exotic birds I have ever seen.  So I became the human stalking scare 
>crow.  I woke up early every morning, snuck up, and scared them away as 
>energetically as possible at 5am.  I liked to yell alot to let everyone 
>else share in my wonderful task.  After a few days the birds left.  
>
>Try calling the Audobon society.  They're bound to leave then.  8 <: )
>
>God Bless,
>
>Craig

Those were probably Pileated Woodpeckers, kind of remind you of Woody
Woodpecker with the big, red crest.  They often cut rectangular holes,
believe it or not.

By the way, I suspect killing a woodpecker is probably illegal although I
don't know for sure.

Take care,

Rog


Newsgroups: rec.hunting
From: microsoft!johnclif@cs.washington.edu
Subject: Re: .22 centerfires for deer?
Date: 13 Apr 92 08:35:42 CDT
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu



As another poster suggested, use the right tools for the job.  A hot
.22 centerfire will kill a deer if the right bullets are used.  Winchester
offers a loading specifically designed for deer and antelope in .223
Remington.  If Nosler, Barnes, etc., made a controlled-expansion bullet,
it would be fine.

However, the issue of using a .22 centerfire begs the question of why
not use something bigger?  Recoil?  Use one of the 6mm rounds (.243 Winchester
or 6mm Remington).  I can shoot 100 grain bullets out of a 6 1/2 lb rifle
in a T-shirt (I'm 5'6", 140 lbs) all day without getting a bruised shoulder.
The standard hunting rifle (7 1/2 lbs with scope and ammo) hardly kicks
at all, especially from the offhand position.  And one of these calibers
with the appropriate controlled-expansion bullets will kill any deer
at 300 yards and under with any shot except from directly behind the
animal.

If you are going after the bigger species of deer and/or you will be
shooting at longer ranges, you need to start considering the larger
calibers from 6.5mm to the .30s.  The .270 Winchester, 7mm Remington
Magnum, .30-'06 and .300 Winchester Magnums will kill the largest deer
at any reasonable range (500 yards or under) with a properly-placed
shot.  The bigger calibers also give you a little margin for error
in that a .223 bullet through the lungs at extended ranges makes a
smaller hole than the larger calibers.

I have no qualms with anyone who wants to use a .22 centerfire for
deer, as long as that hunter realizes he must pick and choose his 
shots, refusing all opportunities that will not provide a quick and sure
kill with a hit.  Using a more powerful caliber allows for more
shooting opportunities for the ethical hunter.


John Clifford
Developer, Applications
Microsoft Corporation

Disclaimer:  I speak for me, Bill speaks for Microsoft.

P.S.  I'm glad that someone else pointed out shooting a woodpecker
      is illegal.  I like woodpeckers, especially pileated ones.
      Perhaps you could rig up a piece of firewood on a pole for him
      to beat on.
From: webdw@mvutd.att.com (Bruce D Woods)
Newsgroups: rec.hunting
Subject: Re: **Bear Hunting**
Date: 9 Apr 92 13:02:03 GMT
Article-I.D.: doug.1992Apr9.080203.18495
Organization: AT&T
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu

In article <1992Apr7.120728.6835@doug.cae.wisc.edu> sh4e+@andrew.cmu.edu (Steve Ha) writes:
>Can anyone please tell me where bear hunting seasons are offered?  I
>would appreciate any information.  Thanks for your time.
>
>
>                                                        - Steven - 


NH, for one.
From: reber@ceres.rm.fccc.edu (John Reber)
Newsgroups: rec.hunting
Subject: Re: alt.archery?
Date: 15 Apr 92 13:45:27 GMT
Article-I.D.: doug.1992Apr15.084528.19866
Organization: Fox Chase Cancer Center
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu

In article <1992Apr14.085334.22432@doug.cae.wisc.edu>, scott@niwot.scd.ucar.edu (Larry Scott) writes:
> 
> 	Alt.archery? Where? I can't find it anywhere!

Talk to your system administrator, politely ask them to add
alt.archery...it's been in existence for a few months and averages a
half dozen or so messages a day...

I followed the directions found somewhere in the news.* hiearchy about
creating new groups, and it seemed that alt.* groups were exempt from
the voting needed to create mainstream groups(also from the types of
alt.groups that flood our site, it didn't seem as if vote was
needed)...As i found out, the alt.* gods weren't very happy that
someone would issue a newgroup without first posting a CFD to
alt.config, because of this a lot of sys-admins didn't honor the
newgroup...so if you ask nicely, they may add it for your site...

-- 
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Phone:	     (215) 728-3633		7701 Burholme Ave
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	     "The more people I meet, the more I like my dog"

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Newsgroups: rec.hunting
From: drintoul@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (David A Rintoul)
Subject: Re: How do I catch a woodpecker?
Organization: Kansas State University
Date: 10 Apr 92 09:24:14 CDT
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu

I have been reading this whole woodpecker thread and really can't
believe what I am reading.  Apparently only one person has figured out
that blasting away at a woodpecker MIGHT be illegal!  I guess someone
has to be the bad guy and pass this along, but, yes, KILLING ANY
NON-GAME NATIVE BIRD IS ILLEGAL IN THIS COUNTRY.  And, in general,
discharging a firearm within city limits is usually illegal.  And,
finally, there are good reasons for these laws, they serve to protect
wildlife and people from juveniles who are inconvenienced by an animal
that happens to be trying to carry on its own business and reproduce.
Is this a moderated newsgroup?  If so, where is the moderation?

return flames cheerfully filed in dev/null/hunting
-- 
Dave Rintoul            Internet: drintoul@matt.ksu.ksu.edu
Biology Division - KSU       BITNET: drintoul@ksuvm.ksu.edu
Manhattan KS 66506-4901                         TCN: id2418
(913)-532-5832 or 6663                  FAX: (913)-532-6653


Newsgroups: rec.hunting
From: rigg@osnome.che.wisc.edu (Tim Rigg)
Subject: Re: Win Mod 94 
Date: 13 Apr 92 08:36:24 CDT
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu

   In article <1992Apr10.092111.27941@doug.cae.wisc.edu> voodoo!tomm@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Tom Mackey) writes:
   [snip]
   >Well, maybe one more data point:  he also had a Winchester Model 94 in
   >.32 WSpcl.  I once took it out on a whim as a backup gun and was very
   >pleased that I could shoot a nice tight group at ~85 yards with iron
   >sights.  I don't remember how tight, but remember thinking at the time
   >that I would be able to hit what I aimed at.  Maybe a bit less than 2 in.?

   This is the rifle I use for deer hunting.  Mine, too, is a hand-me-down
   from Dad and I really like it.  Last time I sighted it in, I was using
   a 180 yd. range (longer than I like, but it was convenient) and was
   able to get groups of about 4 inches with factory ammo (Winchester, 170 gr.).

Amazing.  This is also my deer hunting rifle.  It is light,
dependable, and much more accurate than I am.

Maybe we should start a club... :-)

tim
---
    ...  Then they came for me,
	   and by that time there was no one
	     left to speak up for me. (Rev. Martin Niemoller, 1945)
From: toby@milton.u.washington.edu (Toby Bradshaw)
Newsgroups: rec.hunting
Subject: Re: .22 centerfires for deer?
Date: 6 Apr 92 14:19:46 GMT
Article-I.D.: doug.1992Apr6.091946.8610
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu

John Van Etten:
>In response to Charlie Sorsby's comments against using .22
>centerfires for deer, Toby Bradshaw has suggested that a new
>thread be started on the subject.  At risk of being accused of
>fighting other people's battles for them ;-) , I'd like to offer
>a few thoughts.

>     All of the .22 caliber bullets I've ever seen or used are
>one of three types: Match, FMJ, or (highly frangible) Varmint.
>I have never seen any of what I'll call "big game bullets"--
>loosely defined as heavy-jacketed softpoint, partition,
>bonded-core, X-type, etc.  The kind of bullets that can smash
>through heavy bone to get to the vitals.

I'm pretty sure that one of the heavier Sierra .224s is designed
for medium game.  Not having my Sierra manual with me at work,
a more definitive answer will take awhile unless somebody knows
this off the top of their head.

[deer/varmint bullet story deleted]

>     The moral of the story -- use the right bullets for the
>game hunted.  And if those bullets aren't available for your
>favorite cartridge, then don't use it.  As old Bob Fulton at
>the paving company used to prophetically spout to me, "You
>can't shovel blacktop with a rake."  Think about that.

Right.

>
>John

Toby
From: toomer@CS.ColoState.EDU (christopher toomer)
Newsgroups: rec.hunting
Subject: RE: ALT.ARCHERY
Date: 15 Apr 92 13:45:37 GMT
Article-I.D.: doug.1992Apr15.084537.19899
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu

Hi everybody,

  I have asked the 'posters' in alt.archery to crosspost there stuff 
  to rec.hunting.  The moderator can decide what to post and what not
  to.  If you don't like this idea, I'm not interested.  I'm just
  trying to let those of you who don't get alt.archery get some info
  from them.  If you have archery questions, post them in rec.hunting,
  and I'll try to forward them to alt.archery.  Obviously, there are
  limitations on what I can do.  In other words, I promise nothing.  
  Another possibility is to try and post to alt.archery, even if you don't
  get it at your sight, and see if it works.  If someone knows whether
  this is possible, please tell us.  If someone wants to try this,
  state that you are doing so, and if gets to alt.archery, I'll let
  you know.

  chris
  toomer@cs.ColoState.edu
From: unr!pyramid.unr.edu!adams@uunet.UU.NET (Brian Adams)
Newsgroups: rec.hunting
Subject: Re: How do I catch a woodpecker?
Date: 14 Apr 92 13:54:22 GMT
Article-I.D.: doug.1992Apr14.085422.22600
Organization: University of Nevada, Reno  Department of Computer Science
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu

[Moderator's note:  I am allowing any woodpecker posts that offer some
constructive advise.  tjr]

Whatever you do, don't sink so low as to kill that woodpecker. It is
protected by law and for good reason. I'm sure you can find a creative
solution to the problem, and it must be a fairly common situation.
I've heard that one should check for insects whenever woodpeckers take
an interest in a house. They also just seem to like to make noise
sometimes.

Remember, the killing of protected birds only gives the anti's more
ammo, and ticks off us limp wristed bird watchers!

Brian
From: SCHULTZ@admin1.usask.ca (Robert Schultz)
Newsgroups: rec.hunting
Subject: Firearm/hunter safety training
Date: 9 Apr 92 13:03:20 GMT
Article-I.D.: doug.1992Apr9.080320.18781
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu

In Saskatchewan (Canada) we have a program established and
administered by the Provincial Government. Instructors must be
certified by the provincial body, but the cost per student is limited
to $10 Maximum - all instruction is performed on a total volunteer
basis. The manuals and various teaching aids are distributed freely by
the Government body to enrolled students and active instructors. The
$10 is to cover adminstrative and ammunition costs only!

The course is reasonably comprehensive, but it really depends on the
instructors interests. That is right, INSTRUCTORS. We do not believe
that one person should teach the whole class (16 hours minimum
requirement), but that 3 or 4 persons can really add a variety of
knowledge to the course; especially since the course involves
introduction to Black Powder and Archery as well as detailed game
identification, wilderness survival and get this -- even a section on
hunter ethics. Apparently, this course is highly regarded throughout
the global firearm community (at least that is what the certifing
instructor told me).

Provincial legislation requires ALL first-time hunters to take this
course before they can purchase or apply for a hunting licence.
Additonal federal legislation now requires any one wishing to purchase
(or borrow?) a firearm to have taken a course of this nature. I think
all of society would be better informed if they took a firearm safety
course -
	guns don't kill people, people kill people!

Be safe,

Rob Schultz
From: ses@hpfcls.fc.hp.com (Steve Speer)
Newsgroups: rec.hunting
Subject: Self righteous ranting and moderators
Date: 7 Apr 92 17:08:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: doug.1992Apr7.120801.6936
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu

If your collecting votes, I'd like to see the long range shooting
debate stopped in rec.hunting.  If I want to listen to a bunch of self
righteous "you don't live up to my standards" B.S. I can post a
hunting article to a non-moderated group.  I suggest you do have the
"groups" permission/authority to respectfully decline articles that
attack another hunters character with the childish drivel that people
like Chris Barnes and Steve Pickett have submitted.  The articles may
as well have been arguing the ethics of archery, black-powder,
crossbow, etc.  They clearly did not fall in the realm of "I'd like to
offer some opposing viewpoints for those hunters not already
thoroughly versed in the topic" (Actually, this is exactly how Bart
Bobbitt replied, which is far more useful and less agravating than the
raving posted by the Cal/Tex juveniles).

My personal oppinion is that I have not yet met the marksman who can
place one shot at AROUND 1200 yards with enough consistency to justify
firing at a big game animal.  My own knowledge of ballistics leads me
to believe that there are two many variables that change with time for
someone to pull this off regularly.  The longest shot I've fired at a
big game animal is 200 yards.  I probably wouldn't go over 300 and
that would be broadside with a rest on a calm day with a lot of time
to get set.  On the other hand, I paced off my longest prarie dog this
weekend at 360 yards.  Longest head shot was 270 yds.

	-Steve

[Moderator's note: when rec.hunting was created, there was an initial
question about whether we could discuss hunting ethics as opposed to
hunting morality.  The concensus was that ethics was a valid topic.
This rasies many questions for me: First, where is the line between
ethics and morality?  and second, how long should I let ethical
questions continue?

With this thread, I have been reluctently posting everything in the
hope that it would die down quickly. If folks would like to like to
suggest a different approach, I welcome their suggestions.

tjr]
From: gtas1@sunyit.sunyit.edu (Terrance Stedman)
Newsgroups: rec.hunting
Subject: Re: RECOIL
Date: 17 Apr 92 12:34:34 GMT
Organization: State University of New York -- Institute of Technology
Originator: hunting@osnome.che.wisc.edu

In article <1992Apr14.085353.22499@doug.cae.wisc.edu> mr4x+@andrew.cmu.edu (Matthew Robert Rice) writes:
>[...stuff deleted...]
>with that?  As far as I'm concerned, recoil should not be considered in
>choosing a rifle unless it's something really huge.

	Guns with serious recoil can make shooting a challenge for
those who flinch in anticipation of the punch.  I've seen shooters
flinch when firing a large caliber rifle with no round even in the
chamber!  My opinion is that guns with modest recoil are more
enjoyable to shoot repeatedly.
	It's worth mentioning that felt recoil differs depending on
the situation.  If you take a 12 gauge shotgun and carefully aim at a
can on a fencepost, you feel the recoil when firing (and it may even
smart a bit).  Alternatively, if you're shooting the same gun at a
partridge you've just flushed, the felt recoil is much much less.  The
point I'm making here is that felt recoil can depend on the shooting
situation.  In particular, shooting the .30-30 Win., 30-06, and 7MM
mag from a bench is painful after awhile.  My brothers and I often use
some padding like a towel under the T-shirt or a vest with a recoil
pad to make things a bit more comfortable when shooting many rounds
>from the bench.
	So in my opinion, recoil IS something to consider depending on
the shooter and the shooting situation when purchasing a rifle.