From: PA146008@utkvm1.utk.edu  (David Veal)
Subject: Re: Gun control (was Re: democratic platform)
Organization: The University of Tennessee, Knoxville
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 23:04:34 GMT

In article <183162@pyramid.pyramid.com>
glambert@pyramid.com (George Lambert) writes:

>
>In article <170f16INN63m@agate.berkeley.edu> fcrary@ocf.berkeley.edu (Frank Cray) writes:
>>In article <183136@pyramid.pyramid.com> glambert@pyramid.com (George Lambert) rites:
>>>So how was the military coup of Gorbachev overthrown by an unarmed population
>>
>>Was that the same "unarmed" population who were all around the Russian
>>parliment building carrying assault rifles stolen from military armories?
>>Or the ones who placing land mines around the building's enterences? Or
>>the ones fighting Soviet armored personel carriers with fire bombs?
>
>They were certainly unarmed before the coup started.  Seems that when they
>needed 'em, they found a way to get 'em.  However, the big weapons against
>this coup were: faxes, TV, radio, telephone and an unwillingness on a large
>part of the military forces to engage (slaughter) their own people.  Don't
>you think that a better networked, more open society (such as the US as
>compared to exUSSR) would benefit from those same weapons to a far greater
>degree than the citizens of the Soviet Union?

     Perhaps, perhaps not.  It is not something I feel the need to gamble
on.

>>
>>>Guns aren't the only means to overthrow dictators...you need a better
>>>argument.
>>
>>Non violent methods don't always work. Why should we through away a
>>proven and effective way to overthrow repressive governments, simply
>>because it isn't the _only_ solution. Non-violent means should be
>>tried first, but what would you suggest if they don't work?
>>
>Then I would suggest violent means.  The problem with this whole argument is
>that nobody I know or talk to on a regular basis has any fear of a military
>coup in the US.  Nobody.  If someone were to take a poll, you would not find
>this to be a common fear of the US citizen.
>
     In order to try violent means, one must have access to violent tools,
and that is all anyone here has asked for.
     What the majority in the U.S. believes is not the point.  Ask the what
kind of country most people think they live in and they'll say, "Democracy,"
not "Republic."  Ask whether the President has the legal authority to declare
martial law and most people will say, "yes."
     Becuase something is not "a common fear" does not make it less or
more of threat.

>There is irony (to me, at least), that many of those who use this argument
>(mostly on the net) also represent themselves as being proponents of
>exhaustive military spending.  So, on the one hand, they fear the military,
>on the other, they continue to wish to keep it strong.  That doesn't make
>sense to me.

     This seems like an unfounded generalization.  I, personally, have
not seen this trend.  I think you are looking for something to point
people out as hypocrites, kind of like the pro-choice do when they say,
"well, most pro-life people support the death penalty," when nobody
invovled has even discussed it.

>What gun-owners need to do, in my opinion, is rather than offer these tired
>and paranoid sounding arguments (the only valid one is self-defense)

     "The only valid one is self-defense."  With one line of a keyboard
you dismiss everyone elses's arguments.

>is to
>stop confronting the people who oppose gun ownership, start recognizing that
>there are some pretty serious concerns that need to be addressed, and get
>every one working together to find a solution amenable to everyone.

     Won't happen.  Impossible.  Nothing is every amenable to everyone.

     Ever.

     There are too many who want to take all the guns away.  Who are
not interested in being "reasonable."

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| David Veal  PA146008@utkvm1.utk.edu                                  |
|             University of Tennessee Division of Continuing Education |
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