From: middleto@poincare.ucsd.edu (Tom Middleton ; System Manager)
Newsgroups: rec.nude
Subject: Re: Women enjoying nature in natural state.
Date: 28 Sep 1992 21:03:43 GMT
Organization: Institute for NonLinear Science, UCSD
NNTP-Posting-Host: poincare.ucsd.edu


There were many responses to my original posting and I have tried to hold
back and not respond to all of them individually just because I'd like to
keep the noise down here.  This one brought out some good points so I am
chosing it to respond to but please understand the flavor of my response
also includes posts from other people.  I am NOT picking on this one person.

In article <3757@unisql.UUCP> wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie) writes:
>	I don't mean to try to defend gawkers or social troglodytes, but the
>diatribe I just read smacks all too much of "Them blacks are ruinin' the 
>neighborhood" for my taste.  

Good point, I should not have attacked "all men" as I did.  I hope it is
clear that I was referring to a subgroup of men defined by their actions.

>>I wrote:
>>I will try to ignore those that respond to this by defending men 
>
In article <3757@unisql.UUCP> wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie) writes:
>	Of course.  It's much easier and more comfortable to say "It's
>their fault, the bastards!" than try to see what the real reasons for
>the trouble are.  

My intention was to solicit solutions; where the reason for an action
is useful in determining an effective solution (which is most often the
case) then by all means we should see it.  But just defending men and 
denying a problem exists or claiming its the womans problem doesn't help
and that is what I was trying to avoid.

In article <3757@unisql.UUCP> wrat@unisql.UUCP (wharfie) writes:
>	My suggestions for people who want to do anything - not just get 
>naked - but "can't handle" the way other people might behave to them are:
>
>	4.  Laugh.  And point.  "Hey, honey, this guy wants me to help
>him jerk off!  Hoho!  Hey, Stephanie, get a load of this!".  Even a pervert
>will usually find loud public ridicule something to avoid.

One idea that has come up in the past but I don't know if it has ever been
put to effective use is to take a camera solely for the purpose of photo-
graphing people doing stupid, inappropriate, asshole type of stuff.  In most
cases I am sure they know what they are doing is unacceptable and being
photographed doing it may ward them off.  Maybe taking pictures of people
taking crotch shots, jerking off, etc. would have an affect on them.

>	5.  Move.  If I'm near some people who're loud and playing radios
>and smoking, I don't bother to ask them to turn it down.  I move to a different
>place, even if I was "there first".

That shouldn't be necessary.  I would ask them to turn it down if it was
really a problem and if they didn't respond I don't know what I'd do.  I
suppose it would depend on the balance of power (5 of them, 1 of me or
vice versa).  Surprisingly enough, I don't recall that ever being a problem.


>	Thus, I would make women more comfortable at nude beaches by helping
>them learn to assert their own right to peace and privacy, rather than 
>attempting to emulate Sisyphus and roll the rock of ill manners back up the
>hill.  

A very good last comment.  Women need to know that they CAN assert their
rights and that we will back them up.  It is unfortunate that there are 
rude and obnoxious men out there who think all women at nude beaches are
just there for them to toy with.  It is even more unfortunate that many
women think they have to put up with it.  I think our efforts would be
most effective if we let all women know that they don't have to put up
with certain men and that we (the majority of males) will support the
women, NOT the men.  Unfortunately, as he said earlier, this discussion
belongs in some other group.

-- 
===============================================================================
Thomas Earl Middleton		|
aka Happy Bare			| "Murph, it's Dan Quayle, forget about it."  
middleto@poincare.ucsd.edu	| 			Frank Fontana
Newsgroups: rec.nude