HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bailebn@mail.auburn.edu (Bliss Bailey)
Subject: Re: the threat from animal-rights and environme
Reply-To: bailebn@mail.auburn.edu
Organization: Auburn University
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 23:32:27 GMT

In article mrc@Ikkoku-Kan.Panda.COM, mrc@Ikkoku-Kan.Panda.COM (Mark Crispin) writes:
>Perhaps the single greatest threat to the rural way of life is that posed by
>the animal-rights and environmentalist movement.  These people are evangelical
>in their religion -- and it *is* a religion -- and are utterly intolerant of
>any viewpoint which does not match their own.

I'm so confused!  I enjoy the "rural way of life", and yet I consider myself
an environmentalist, and I believe in animal rights in so much as I deplore
the conditions in which some domestic animals are kept.  How can this be?  
Have I been wrong all these years? Is my life not rural?  

It feels rural. I have no garbage pick-up.  I have no "city" water.
Hell, I don't even have electricity.  I do have old farm equipment in my yard.
My neighbor harvests hundreds of tons of hay from our pasture every year.  I can
grow much more than I can eat.  I drive down a dirt road to my property which I
have to maintain.  It feels rural.  And I am certified by licensed medical
and psychological experts not to be a threat to myself or my lifestyle.  All of
these contradictions will keep me up for hours....

>Ironically, these people are often the same ones who gather in
>``celebration of rural life'' and sing insipid songs in praise of farming.

Hey, buddy.  I'm only a novice on the harmonica, but don't call my
songs "insipid".  

>We need to counter their propaganda and reclaim the scientific high ground in
>the public's eye, or we'll become extinct.

The solution is obvious.  Have as many children as humanly possible and
overwhelm the evil New-Agers with a flood from the loins of Right Thinkers
everywhere.

But seriously, don't sweat those evil New Age environmentalist animal rights
activists.  Everybody knows "consciousness is self-eliminating."  



---
_____________________________________________________________________
Bliss Bailey                                          144 Parker Hall
Network Support Specialist                      Auburn University, AL
Auburn University, AL                                           36849
bailebn@mail.auburn.edu                                  205-844-4512
_____________________________________________________________________
From: ren@rap.ucar.edu (Ren Tescher)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: The Neglected Sheep in Marin
Date: 27 Jan 93 16:10:05 GMT
Organization: NCAR, Research Applications Program

In article <1993Jan25.100445.1@vax.sonoma.edu> simard@vax.sonoma.edu writes:
>Turns out that this guy is NOT a rancher.  I live in the next county 
>north of Marin and he has sheep here that are also in trouble.  They 
>are being checked daily by the county.  What is this guy?  A San Franciso 
>investment broker who is holding land strictly for future sale.  He 
>puts sheep on the land to keep the weeds down.  A lot of sheep are 
>grown in both Sonoma and Marin counties and this guy has caused much 
>anguish amoung true sheep ranchers because of the bad rap given them 
>by him.
	There you have it!  The guy is deliberately giving the local
sheep ranchers a bad name so they'll be forced out by mis-guided
animal rights groups.  That leaves all these vacant ranches for what else?
Sub-divisions!  Who knows, maybe the county governments are conspiring with
him (increased tax revenue).  I think the waddies should relive their 
heritage and introduce this scum to 'range justice'.
	Devil's Advocate:  Why should we let all this potentially valuable
suburbia be wasted on agriculture?  Share our desire/need for agricultural
products with third world countries that have to slash-and-burn rain forests
for farming/ranching.
ren 
dona nobis pacem
From: Charles.K.Scott@dartmouth.edu (Charles K. Scott)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: the threat from animal-rights and environmentalists
Date: 25 Jan 93 17:16:57 GMT
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0a5@newshost.dartmouth.edu

In article <MS-C.727816491.1103527590.mrc@Ikkoku-Kan.Panda.COM>
mrc@Ikkoku-Kan.Panda.COM (Mark Crispin) writes:

> We need to counter their propaganda and reclaim the scientific high ground in
> the public's eye, or we'll become extinct.

What you mean "we" paleface?

Corky Scott
Newsgroups: misc.rural
From: lovejoy@cantor.math.purdue.edu (Victor W. Lovejoy)
Subject: Advice needed on farm/general use truck 
Organization: Purdue University, West Lafayette, Ind.
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 20:25:17 GMT

Hi, everyone, this is Vic. My fiance, Jodi, and I are going to be married in
May and live in Greencastle, IN. She will graduate in May and start working 
as a Veterinarian there.  I will be commuting to Purdue (~75 miles) three days  per week to finish my degree. She and I have two horses that reside on her 
Mother's farm about 10 miles away from Greencastle. We have decided to buy
a pickup for me when she graduates so we will both have transportation and 
we'll have some way to haul hay and feed to the horses. 

We don't have a horse trailer so there will be no trailering done on the
truck. We figure that by the time we are ready buy our own land and move
the horses to it, several years will have passed and we can rent or buy a
truck and trailer then for that purpose. 

So our situation is: we need a truck (A Chevy) that can be used for driving
everyday and gets used like a car, and then has the capability to haul a 
bed full of hay or maybe a few sacks of grain. We have looked at a 1500 that
had a bunch of options (used) and it seemed nice. The cruise/air/stereo/power
features would make my drive to Purdue easy to take, but will a  Chevy 1500 be
strong enough to haul hay and feed?  I've heard that in order to haul the 1/2
ton the truck is rated for, special coolers and suspension will be needed. 
That seems crazy. If the truck will only haul 300 pounds in it's stock conditionwhy don't they call it a Chevy 300 pound truck?

Logic tells me that a Chevy 1/2 ton will haul 1/2 ton of stuff in it's bed
just the way it comes off the showroom floor - no optional coolers or shocks
needed. Am I right? We have a few months to decide on the vehicle we want
and the place we want to buy it. Any information would be greatly appreciated.


Victor W Lovejoy

is 

lovejoy@helicon.math.purdue.edu
From: clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca (Chris Lewis)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: Road Maintenance
Date: 24 Jan 93 02:20:22 GMT
Organization: Elegant Communications Inc., Ottawa, Canada

In article <77244@apple.apple.COM> kathryn@Apple.COM (Kathryn Vandiver) writes:

>>Get some "rip rap", "rip rock", or whatever your local quarries call
>>the roughly football sized crushed stone they sell.  Around here the
>>stuff goes for about $20 a ton delivered.  Get a few tons and build in
>>where the erosion is happening.  Put down one layer of rocks, then
>>shovel in some smaller gravel liberally.  Then build up a few more
>>layers of rock.  This should end your erosion problems in that area.

>Our neighbors tried the smaller sized 2" rock, it washed away. Is the 
>rock you describe about 6"? if so, Andolini's in Soquel sells it for 
>quite a bit more per ton ($150 or so). 

That's probably a decorating stone for building raised beds or fancy
retaining walls.

Another name for the stuff you should be using is "gabion" (probably
misspelled) basket stone.  It's the stuff that they put in heavy mesh
baskets for retaining walls on streams (which is usually unecessary,
but that's another flamewar).  It comes in two sizes.  One roughly
4-5", and one about double the size.

Around here, it's $13CDN (about $10US) a ton.

Many people fork out $100-$400 a ton for decorating stone, often sawn into
slabs.  But gabion stone actually looks quite nice - it's a fairly regular
shape - much like a brick.  We used it for raised garden beds.  Depends on
the crusher, and what type of rock it is.
-- 
Chris Lewis; clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca; Phone: Canada 613 832-0541
Psroff 3.0 info: psroff-request@ferret.ocunix.on.ca
Ferret list: ferret-request@ferret.ocunix.on.ca
Newsgroups: misc.rural
From: psmith@alfred.carleton.ca (Peter Smith)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: the threat from animal-rights and environmentalists
Date: 26 Jan 93 18:18:23 GMT
Organization: Carleton University

In <1993Jan26.135654.805@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> spf@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (Steve Frysinger of Blue Feather Farm) writes:

>From article <MS-C.727816491.1103527590.mrc@Ikkoku-Kan.Panda.COM>, by Mark Crispin <mrc@Ikkoku-Kan.Panda.COM>:

>(Long diatribe deleted)

>Mark:

>1. I farm.
>2. I hunt.
>3. I am an environmentalist.

>As a farmer, I practice low-input sustainable methods, and I see to the
>comfort of my animals during their life (though I may then be responsible
>for their death and consumption).

>As a hunter, I only take shots which offer the great likelihood of a clean
>kill, and we eat what I kill.  I also volunteer my time to help enforce
>wildlife laws so that the activity of the many concientious hunters is
>not threatened by the actions of the few slobs.

>As an environmentalist, I work to protect surface and groundwater supplies,
>protect vital wildlife habitat, discourage reckless development, and
>encourage thoughtful land use practices.

>Am I your friend or your enemy?

>I submit that there is a middle ground, that these issues are complicated,
>and that they will not be solved to anyone's satisfaction by an "us vs them"
>approach.

>I encourage you to consider the possibility that the issues you cite are
>not black and white.

>Steve Frysinger

Your points are well taken, and I share most of your views.  In my
area, were it not for crusades by concerned, yet joe-average type
persons, we would have completely lost our greenbelt by now (a large
ring of wildlife and farms around our city).

However, it hasn't been just a case of "stop doing anything".  Indeed,
I live in a vibrant community where many concerned groups speak
intelligently with government, and have a real impact on many
decisions.
From: camelsho@gemini.ksu.ksu.edu (   James A Seymour)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Whole Earth Catalog
Date: 26 Jan 1993 07:13:32 -0600
Organization: Kansas State University
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: gemini.ksu.ksu.edu

What is the most recent Whole Earth Catalog?

I've got The Essential Whole Earth Catalog from
1986. ISBN 0-385-23641-7    Is this the newest one?

If there is a more recent one, could you post the ISBN?
I'm sure it will be of interest to many people on the net.

james seymour/camel/camelsho@matt.ksu.ksu.edu
From: ughtas@pencom.com (Thomas A Stewart)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Aquifer(s) and reuse
Date: 27 Jan 93 17:09:41 GMT
Reply-To: ughtas@pencom.com
Distribution: usa
Organization: Pencom Software

Greetings:

I live over the Edwards Aquifer in the Texas Hill Country.  The last couple of  
years have been pretty grim as far as water management and misuse are  
concerned.  We've had catfish "farms" that wasted literally 10's of millions of  
gallons of water per day (roughly a fourth as much as the entire city of San  
Antonio uses in a day!!!).  We've had *truly* stupid arguments amongst various  
government agencies, and many other difficulties (drought, flood, etc.).

What I'm looking for as a water system user (a rural system though) is a way of  
re-useing some of the water I currently drain, flush, drip, and otherwise while  
away "once and forever" into my septic tank.  I've thought about splitting out  
the clothes washer and kitchen drains to run on the yard, but that doesn't seem  
ecologically sound (ooh yuck...look at the grease scum) and also doesn't  
provide for a storage scheme.

Does anyone know of plans for a single dwelling water treatment plant?  Maybe a  
couple of stages of filtering with limited storage in between, and a final  
multi-thousand gallon storage tank?  We've got the ideal situation for gravity  
plumbing, since the house is near the top of a ridge, and the valley floor is  
about 60 feet lower elevation over a couple hundred feet horizontal.  

I thought about something like:

 __________
/  house   \
 |        |
+--------+...
               ..... 
filter 1 (mechanical).[___].      <---this would get cleaned often
                           .[   ]
tank 1 (500 gallons ??)     [___]
                                 .
           filter 2(carbon?)      .[___]       <-- cleaned sometimes
                                        .[   ]
        tank 1 (2000 gallons ??)         [   ]
                                         [___]

I don't think I'd run the toilet, and maybe not the kitchen sinks (too much  
solid stuff) through this, but everything else would work, and I'd then use the  
"treated" water for gardens, plants, car washes, and whatever other stuff is  
possible.  If the treatment scheme could be better, I'd probably use recycled  
water in the clothes washer, toilet, and *maybe* the bath (idono 'bout this  
one).   Just the clothes washer and toilet would be a major help on the water  
bill!


Can anybody shed some light on this topic.  I'd rather not spend loads of  
money, but a couple thousand for a decades worth of recycled water would be  
fine.
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom Stewart - Pencom Software - we know AIX personally
"Sir, I must protest!   I *AM NOT* a merry man!"	----  Lt. Worf, ST-TNG
Xref: sparky misc.rural:2871 ba.mountain-folk:369
From: kathryn@Apple.COM (Kathryn Vandiver)
Newsgroups: misc.rural,ba.mountain-folk
Subject: Re: Road Maintenance
Date: 22 Jan 93 01:29:23 GMT
Followup-To: misc.rural
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA

>
>Which roads are you concerned about?  Are they county roads?  Where
>I am in Bonny Doon, the county seems to do quite a good job of patching 
>the holes...  I think we are lucky that there is a Lockheed facility
>up the road, I know that they make sure the road is in good condition.

So what is Lockheed doing up there anyway? I think it's peculiar that
there are "No Photographs" signs all over the place.
kc.
Newsgroups: misc.rural,ba.general,talk.politics.animals,ba.mountain-folk
From: peterbak@microsoft.com (Peter Bako)
Subject: Re: The Neglected Sheep in Marin
Date: 28 Jan 93 23:19:20 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

In article <1993Jan20.213702.10529@igor.tamri.com> donb@igor.tamri.com (Don Baldwin) writes:
>In article <1993Jan19.163302.2127@island.COM> green@island.COM
>(Robert Greenstein) writes:
>>What's the difference between neglecting sheep and torturing animals
>>in lab experiments or factory-farming, for that matter? It's just
>>as disgusting, but you won't find the D.A. pressing charges. I'm 
>>not suggesting he shouldn't be prosecuted. It's just that there is
>>a lot of terrible animal abuse that goes on every day that people
>>just don't want to look at.
>
>I dunno.  Torturing animals is a lot more fun, at a guess.
>
>   don "pull!  MEOW!  ka-bam!" baldwin


-- 
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(   CompuServe:   71170,1426          ||   nothing more?    - V'ger           )
(*)-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-/\-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+(*)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Farmers = abusers (was Neglected Sheep)
From: bailey@vax.cns.muskingum.edu
Date: 21 Jan 93 10:07:00 -0500
Organization: Muskingum College

This is the attitude that really annoys me, take one idiot and 
state that all farmers behave like this.  Remember farming is a
business, the animals are the product.  Our cows are the most
pampered, coddled critters you would ever meet - to a point.
They are there to provide offspring to sell, or be sold, 
hopefully for a profit.  My brother-in-law coddles his sheep
so much (agonizes over the least little thing) I often wonder
how he could ever sell one lamb.  It doesn't do a bit of good
to abuse the animal, if you do and try to sell it you will 
get *nothing*.  

We even name our cows, there's Blackie, Whitey, Coco, Curly and 
Bronco. Blackie's new calf Carol and assorted Georges.  (Georges
are steers that we plan to sell.)  If Coco doesn't have a calf,
it's off to the sale.  Curly isn't a hot prospect, but she's
blind in one eye and it may be better to breed her than to
sell.  (Neighbor's cows paid a visit and left pink-eye.)

My husband has Carol so spoiled, I think he likes going to
the barn just to play with calves :)

Lori Bailey
Posting from beautiful SE Ohio.
From: dfs30@duts.ccc.amdahl.com (Denise Solis)
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Unusual
Date: 22 Jan 93 17:43:36 GMT
Reply-To: dfs30@DUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Denise Solis)
Distribution: na
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

I have an unusual question to pose to those of you out in the country.
Have any of you seen UFOs or unidentified lights in the sky? How about
crop  circles?

I have an avid interest in these phenomenon and would appreciate any
emails on the topics.

When I lived in Paso Robles, California I saw some unusual things.
after speaking with some long time residents I found that my sightings
were not that uncommon.
Thanks!
--
........--=={0}==--.........................--=={0}==--..............
--=={0}==--  * .   *. dfs30@duts.ccc.amdahl.com  *   .*  --=={0}==--.
 *   --=={0}==-- *  .   DENISE FAITH SOLIS     --=={0}==--*.*
--=={0}==--.....--=={0}==--..................*.............--=={0}==--
Newsgroups: misc.rural
From: varney@cbnewsd.cb.att.com (Al Varney)
Subject: Re: Strange Idea
Organization: AT&T Network Systems, Lisle, IL
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 18:47:38 GMT

In article <1jp5f1INNl0d@matt.ksu.ksu.edu> camelsho@matt.ksu.ksu.edu (   James A Seymour) writes:
>I'm sure that this is a strange question, but.....
>
>What would it take to breed swine into a longer
>limbed, and consequently taller, bigger breed?

   James,  Now You've Done It!!!  You weren't supposed to leak anything
about the Kansas legislature's answer to:

    - Horse racing in Nebraska
    - Dog racing in Colorado
    - Bingo in Oklahoma
    - Fun/games in Missouri (at least in Branson)

   Now the whole "usenet world" will know it's PIG RACING!!

(At least if K-State can find a long-legged Duroc or some razor-back that's
running from Little Rock, in order to start a new "thoroughbred" line....
One benefit -- after their running career, they won't incure the disposal
problems of the horse and dog racing industry. ;)

Al Varney - ex-Kansas farm boy and KSU grad
From: simard@vax.sonoma.edu
Newsgroups: misc.rural
Subject: Re: The Neglected Sheep in Marin
Date: 25 Jan 93 18:04:45 GMT
  <1993Jan21.000320.3921@informix.com> <93022.082941JCLEWIN@MTUS5.BITNET>
Organization: Sonoma State University

Turns out that this guy is NOT a rancher.  I live in the next county 
north of Marin and he has sheep here that are also in trouble.  They 
are being checked daily by the county.  What is this guy?  A San Franciso 
investment broker who is holding land strictly for future sale.  He 
puts sheep on the land to keep the weeds down.  A lot of sheep are 
grown in both Sonoma and Marin counties and this guy has caused much 
anguish amoung true sheep ranchers because of the bad rap given them 
by him.

Ernie
Simard@Sonoma.Edu
Newsgroups: misc.rural
From: brucej@sunbeamcom (Bruce Johnson)
Subject: Re: Raised Beds on leach lines.
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 16:20:14 GMT
Organization: mentor
Keywords: 
Followup-To: 

In article <1k64tjINN3c6@seven-up.East.Sun.COM>, barrya@scout.East.Sun.COM (Barry Andreasen - Sun BOS Hardware) writes:
|> /tmp/rrn5482.5168
|> >In article <C1F5nH.Mq3@srgenprp.sr.hp.com>, jefftb@sr.hp.com (Jeff Brown) writes:
|> >|>   
|> >|>   Does anyone out there see problem with putting raise beds for gardening
|> >|>   on the septic sysem leach lines? I'm not covering the tank or any dist-
|> >|>   ribution boxes. The lines are fairly deep.
|> >|> 
|> >|>   Thanks 
|> >|>   Jeff Brown
|> >
|> >I do.  From my nieve understanding: your leach lines are buried at a
|> >particular depth depending on your perc.  If you put more material
|> >on top of your leach lines, you'll be changing your perc.  The tank's
|> >actually the best thing to cover, all you really need access to is
|> >"the lid".
|> >
|> >Correct me if I'm wrong...
|> >
|> >brucej@mentorg.com
|> 
|> Perc is not the ability for moisture to rise to the surface, it is the
|> ability for it to soak into the earth.  To determine this 2 things are
|> done, you do a 'perc' test (dig a hole and watch the rate some applied
|> water drops), and you determine the 'deep hole' properties of the 
|> soil.  The perc determines how much area the field requires, but the
|> depth of a leach field is determined by the frost line in the area 
|> and the high water point of the soil (i.e. you want to be between
|> these) that is found in the deep hole test.  Adding more soil would
|> only increase the range between these two points (by raising the frost
|> line).  This is exactly what is done with more expensive septic
|> systems where soil is brought in to raise the frost line thus
|> providing the necessary space between it and a high water table.  The
|> only potential problem with planting over a leach field is the
|> potential root invasion, but this can be avoided by sticking to annual
|> crops that have short root systems.
|> -barry andreasen
|> ------------- standard disclaimer -----------------------
|> 
|> 
|> 

This implies that something along the lines of a cement pad over top
is fine?  Of course this would be a bad idea if you ever needed to
repair/replace any of your leach field, but for no other reason?

bruce
Newsgroups: misc.rural
From: steve@grian.cps.altadena.ca.us (Steve Mitchell)
Subject: Re: Strange Idea
Organization: College Park Software, Altadena, CA
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 19:55:20 GMT

ahill@boi.hp.com (Andy Hill) writes:

>Robert Frederick Enenkel (enenkel@cs.toronto.edu) wrote:
>> Isn't that the only way to produce desired traits in any animal? 
>> (Except, I suppose, by doing strange things to the DNA using radiation...)
>> 
>Even then, you'd still have to select for the desired traits.  Radiating the
>gametes would just increase the number of available mutations.  Also, there
>is some gene-splicing work going on, although the only practical applications
>that I'm familiar with involve bacteria.  Hold onto your seats, 'though,
>gene-spliced mammals probably aren't too far off.

Actually, gene-spliced mammals are already here.  In fact, several
strains of "transgenetic" beasties (mainly lab mice) have already been
patented.  Bashing on the genes with radiation is an old-fashioned,
crude method for increasing the number of available mutations, which
you then use in traditional selective breeding.  Nowadays, we splice
the desired genes into harmless a virus, infect the target animal, and
the virus splices the desired gene into the DNA of the target.  Using
this technology, the genetic engineers are using various bacteria to
produce commercial quantities of previously prohibitively-expensive
hormones and various other proteins.  They've also created mice with
partly human immunosystems (ideal for lab work on human auto-immune
diseases), as well as animal models of various human genetic
disorders.  Various crops are being engineered with desirable traits
(salt resistance for irrigated fields, tomatoes which can be picked
ripe and transported with minimal bruising, etc).  There's even a
group working on milk cows which produce drugs in their milk.

It's a brave new world out there...
-- 

                           -  Steve Mitchell
College Park Software           steve@cps.altadena.ca.us
461 W. Loma Alta Dr.		818-791-9153 (voice)