From: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: israel's credibility
Date: 5 Jan 93 02:18:16 EST
Reply-To: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Distribution: talk
Organization: Channel 1 Communications

To: Chris Metcalfe

 CM> Since you bring up rhetoric... why do you use the phrase
 CM> "emotional supporters of Israel" as a propaganda formula?

Why, Chris, examine your own message, and note carefully how much
of it consists of a rational analysis of substantive issues, and
how much of shrill abusive, yes, EMOTIONAL haranguing. "Emotional
supporters of Israel" is not a propaganda formula, but a quite
accurate description of a legion of propagandists for Israel,
like yourself, who traffic more in verbal abuse than substantive
discussion. I offer your last message as exhibit A.

 CM> Are you following some sort of prepared documentation kit
 CM> for trashing Israel?  "Spotlight" perhaps?

I've carefully cited all my sources. Nearly all of them are
penned by the best and brightest writers in the Jewish community,
in Israel and the U.S. You have failed to provide a single
effective rebuttal to any of the clips I posted. I've read all
the sources thoroughly; I don't rely on anyone's documentation
kits.

Are the Jerusalem Post International Edition and Tikkun
equivalent to Spotlight in your mind? This does not bespeak an
ability to make very careful discriminations on your part.

At the moment I am reading Yeshayahu Leibowitz's Judaism, Human
Values, and the Jewish State (Harvard University Press, 1992).
What have you read lately about Mideast politics? Near East
Report, perhaps?

 CM> And please answer this one:  what *is* "Channel 1" anyway?

Channel One, based in Cambridge, MA, is one of the largest and
most reputable BBS's in the world (around 100 telephone lines, 12
gigs of storage, zillions of files, nearly 3000 computer
conferences). It has no political agenda whatever, other than a
commitment to free but civil speech.

 CM> I've noticed that many of you libertarian anti-Israelists
 CM> try to fulfill their fantasies of public access (Rush
 CM> Limbraugh wannabees) by creating an "organization" to lend
 CM> themselves credibility.  Amature Radio Forum, Middle East
 CM> Questions, etc.

I belong to no political organizations. I stand as an individual,
on my own two feet. Your emotionalism, and tendency to shoot from
the hip, are leading you to make some inaccurate and rather
foolish statements.

Why are you unable to address the substance of any of my posts?

Since the entire world, including both George Bush and Bill
Clinton, have condemned Israel's current deportation policies, I
should think you would be much more worried about Israel's
credibility, and that of her blind emotional supporters, than
mine. Someone has a credibility problem to be sure. I posted a
number of items here containing poll data which reveal just how
great Israel's credibility problem is these days, particularly
among Americans. I take it you don't choose to dispute any of
those items. No emotional supporter of Israel here has chosen to
do so, because, quite simply, they can't. The hard facts are
difficult to dispute.

Here's a substantive question for you, Chris: how can any nation
which relies on handouts from a foreign country at the rate of
nearly $1000 per citizen per annum be treated as a very credible
member of the Western democratic community? I'll be curious to
see if you can handle this question in a rational way.

Here's another question for you, Chris: much of the world these
days, after enduring the horrors of various forms of oppressive
statism on the left and right in this century, is moving in a
libertarian direction, with the exception of Israel. Are there
any strong libertarian forces in Israel? The right-wing theocrats
and left-wing socialists in Israel are two sides of the same
authoritarian coin. Each group imagines that they have a mission
to manage a centrally planned society or economy. Central
planning is collapsing all around the world, in the Soviet Union,
Eastern Europe and China.

What is it in Israeli culture that seems to make it so addicted
to theocracy on the one hand, or Marxism or pseudo-Marxism on the
other? Why is Israel still clinging on to the discredited ideas
that are being overturned nearly everywhere else in the world? I
am truly curious on this point. This is another one of many
reasons why Israel's credibility is none too high these days.
---
  OLX 3.01 31-2557  messianism: the hydrogen bomb of the human psyche
--
Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast