From: wiggins@hurricane.cs.odu.edu (Samuel E Wiggins)
Subject: Re: Fundamentalist Nightmare
Organization: Old Dominion University, Norfolk, VA, USA
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 05:52:49 GMT

In article <1992Nov18.131433.1905@umr.edu> ckincy@mcs213f.cs.umr.edu (Charles Kincy) writes:

   In article <1ecn4cINN217@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bx461@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Leo J. Mauler) writes:
   >
   >What really bugs me about Fundamentalists bashing Gays is that
   >they claim to have a deep personal relationship with Jesus,
   >yet use Old Testament teachings to justify gay-bashing.
-------
Fundies might have a deep relationship.  You know, the New Testament makes
a firm stand against homosexuality, too.  Paul's letter to the
Romans, chapter 1, verses 22 through 32 is addressed to what kind of people
Christians are not to be like, and it includes homosexuals.
HOWEVER, where in the Bible is bashing justified?  Nowhere.  Witness Jesus's
own words, "you without sin throw the first stone."  Note, though, he did
tell the woman who was going to be pelted to "go and sin no more."
So, we find that the Bible accepts everyone for who they are, but doesn't
necessarily like everything they do, and does expect some change over to
its standards.
-------
   >As I recall from my days as a Catholic robot, Jesus came along
   >and started saying, "Hey guys, wouldn't it be a neat idea if
   >we were nice to people for a change?  Like "Love your neighbor
   >as yourself"!  Like "If you have to bend a rule to help
   >someone, DO IT! (Sabbath)" ".  

   I have an interesting theory:  It was fundamentalists that
   nailed Jesus to the tree to BEGIN WITH!

   Suck on that one for a few thousand years.

   Now, imagine a world without these people.  Nice place, isn't it?
-------
True enough.  I find myself "fundamental" in many beliefs, especially the
belief that I personally can't ram my ideas and beliefs down other people's
throats.  If what I believe is true, that'll all come out in the end.
God gives us free will and the ability to reason for ourselves.
-------
   >Those guys who followed the Old Testament LIKE THE FUNDIES 
   >had Jesus killed for saying things like that.  Makes you
   >wonder about those televangelists...

   Oh, shit, you know I honestly didn't see this in your post before
   I followed up.  So, I guess we agree on our theories.
-------
Hmm.  I'd just like to say that all Christians are not necessarily "fundies,"
and all televangelists are not necessarily Christians.
-------
   Now, I give you another one:  The unrighteous shall perish as a
   consequence of their own iniquities.  No, not in heaven or in hell.
   Right here on earth.  Just a matter of time, see.
-------
On earth *and* in hell.
-------
   This presents two interesting points:

   [1] Suppose it is non-heterosexuals that are not righteous.  Well,
   a real follower of Jesus would remember the above paragraph and sigh
   a sad sigh.  And that would be sad that people had to be unrighteous,
   but (s)he would not act to oppress them.
-------
Amen.  But, even heterosexuals ARE unrighteous, according to the Bible.
So, the "fundies" have no room to talk or persecute anyway, unless they're
gonna do it to themselves, too.  Romans 3:23, "All have sinned and fall
short of the glory of God."
-------
   [2] From what *I* see, it is the fundies that are unrighteous.  You know
   what this means. . . . 

   >Finally, this bit about "love your neighbor as yourself".  I
   >live in Lawrence, KS, which is just a few dozen miles from
   >Topeka, KS, the home of the infamous Reverend Fred Phelps.
   >On nearly every week you can find him organizing some anti-gay
   >protest, with people carrying lots of signs encouraging people
   >to hate gays.
   >
   >If Rev. Phelps is truly a follower of Jesus' teachings, and he
   >truly "loves his neighbor as himself," the Reverend Fred
   >Phelps must hate himself a LOT!

   One wonders.
   cpk
-------
I wonder if everyone out there actually believes that true Christianity
is about "bashing sinners."  It's not, if you go by the original teachings.
Check it out.  Though it does expect conformity to its own standards,
this was supposed to be voluntary, sincere, and by persuasion, resting in the
fact that it would prove itself true by the individual's application.

Waddy'all think about all this?
Newsgroups: alt.atheism