HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Martin Ertl)
Subject: locals (was: Floating Point)
Organization: Institut fuer Computersprachen, Technische Universitaet Wien
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 07:02:30 GMT

In article <Bv5vHx.ACy@starnine.com>, mikeh@starnine.com (Mike Haas) writes:
|> About the only disadvantage that I see is that they aren't standardized...
|> and it's clear to see why.

I have spotted one problem with locals: They cannot be postponed, and
they are incompatible with the current model of postponing (dictionary
lookup at postpone time). This may look like a purists complaint, but
such incompatibilities tend to cause problems when you want them
least.

Apart from that, locals look fine (but not the Basis 15 locals
wordset). But who knows what other evils they hide behind their back?-)

As for locals vs. factoring, I disagree with both Andrew Haley and
Mike Haas. IMO good factoring is worth the time (it amortizes
quickly), but it cannot be forced on the programmer by leaving out
locals. Well, perhaps it can, but IMO it should not (Forth is not
Ada). Anyway, the factoring of Lisp programs does not seem to suffer
from locals.

- anton
-- 
M. Anton Ertl                    Some things have to be seen to be believed
anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at Most things have to be believed to be seen
From: mikeh@kralizec.zeta.org.au (Michael Hore)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: Sampler Forth
Date: 30 Sep 92 12:15:50 GMT
Organization: Kralizec Dialup Unix Sydney: +61-2-837-1183 V.32


Berndt Paysan writes:

>Megamax C (no longer available): 4.2 sec
>bigFORTH (peephole optimizing) : 3.2 sec
>Pure C (really sophisticated)  : 2.2 sec
>Assembler (try to beat it)     : 1.6 sec
>

I know this is a complete waste of time, but I never can resist
benchmarks :-)

Mops does 3.0 secs on a 7.8 MHz Mac Plus.  On a 20 MHz Mac IIsi it
does 0.22 secs (not a fair comparison, even scaling the different
clock speed, since the chip has a 32-bit memory path instead of 16).

The point of this comment, ond of others on this thread, is that a
number of optimizing Forths do exist, and are *very* competitive with
C in terms of speed.  Speed really shouldn't be an issue any more.
How I wish we were more competitive in the other areas (standardization,
libraries, etc etc) which have been the subject of many posts!!
So let's get on with it, folks.

(For my part, I've just about finished making Mops comply with dpANS-3.)

--  Mike.     
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Hore	internet:    mikeh@kralizec.zeta.org.au
"Wisdom has never been known to enter the head through an open mouth"
-- overheard somewhere.
From: uho@informatik.uni-kiel.dbp.de (Ulrich Hoffmann)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: Forth under Unix - a scripting language
Date: 30 Sep 92 09:34:17 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, University of Kiel, FRG

In <35465@cbmvax.commodore.com> chrisg@cbmvax.commodore.com (Chris Green) writes:

>	The Amiga has a nice hypertext program called AmigaGuide. Its files consist
>of ascii text with intermixed commands (which start with @). So, I made dummy
>forth words for all of the common @ commands and was able to turn the source
>code for a program into a readable AmigaGuide document, will a table of
>contents and links from function to function, and still have it compile.

So we may shape a general technique from that?  

Forth code also processable by other interpreters.

-----------------------------
Next: (original idea by Nick Grossmann, I think.)

To process a document by both LaTeX and Forth, define the words

   : \end{verbatim}   ( -- )
        SCAN-FOR-\BEGIN{VERBATIM}-TREATING-TEXT-BETWEEN-AS-COMMENTS ; immediate

   ' \end{verbatim} Alias  \documentstyle{article}  ( -- )  
        
Then you can write your LaTeX-text as follows:

     \documentstyle{article}

     some latex text

     \begin{verbatim}

     : Forth ( -- ) source code ... ;

     \end{verbatim}

     more latex text

     \end{document}

To load the forth code simply load the file into your Forth system: 
It will interpret \documentstyle{article} and treat everything upto the next
\begin{verbatim} as comments. Then it will load the Forth definitions between 
\begin{verbatim} and \end{verbatim} and eventually execute \end{verbatim}, 
which scans for the next occurance of forth code. And so on.

To process it by LaTeX simply run latex on it, it's a legal LaTeX document.

-----------------------------
Wil Baden told me, he once made a program, which could be compiled under both
Pascal and Forth.  He defined a Forth word *) , which in Pascal ends a comment, 
to scan for (* . (* was defined as immediate noop. His Program looked like:

   (*  
      : define ( -- ) here some forth words ;

   *)
   
      PROCEDURE corressponding(VAR pascal, definition : INTEGER);
        BEGIN
          (*  : maybe ( -- ) some intermediate forth definitions ; *)
  
          pascal := statements;
        END;


The same can be done with Glen Haydon's  }  and  {  words.   ( } scans for { ), 
since { and } also enclose coments in Pascal.  


Greetings,
           Ulrich

Ulrich Hoffmann                   email: uh@informatik.uni-kiel.dbp.de  
Institut fuer Informatik, Universitaet Kiel        Tel: +49 431 560426 
Preusserstr 1-9, D-2300 Kiel 1, Germany            Fax: +49 431 566143
From: ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Letters and Public Comments
Date: 3 Oct 92 13:30:54 GMT
Organization: EIEI-U

Category 13,  Topic 3
Message 24        Sat Oct 03, 1992
B.RODRIGUEZ2 [Brad]          at 09:19 EDT
 
Greg Vigneault: I quote the relevant excerpts of the part you missed:

----------
 [Bill Kibler, the editor of TCJ] can be reached by phone ( answering machine)
(800)424-8825, on GENIE as "B.KIBLER", and by mail at The Computer Journal,
P.O. Box 535, Lincoln, CA 95648-0535.  Letters are most reliable, GENIE will
get a quicker response.

For new readers we have a risk free TRIAL SUBSCRIPTION offer.  Try
 two issues for free, paying only if you like TCJ, if not cancel when
 billed for no charges to you.  Rates are $18.00 for SIX issues a
 year in the US by bulk mail.  Rates are higher outside US and for
 FIRST CLASS mail.
 ----------

Based on my experience receiving TCJ in Canada, *DO* pay for the First Class
mail option.  Bulk Mail has been known to take months, and some issues never
arrived.  (I now confirm receipt of each issue via GEnie, so the editor(s) can
keep track of the mail service.) Alas, I have forgotten the Canadian
subscription rate...I'll email B.KIBLER and ask.

Brad Rodriguez
 B.RODRIGUEZ2 on GEnie   |   bradford@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca
 So many projects....so little time.

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From: ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: From the xCFB's / ForthNet
Date: 4 Oct 92 12:33:13 GMT
Organization: EIEI-U

Category 14,  Topic 2
Message 60        Sat Oct 03, 1992
ELLIOTT.C                    at 10:03 EDT
 
 -----via CRS Premium Bulletin Board
 Date: 09-30-92 (15:00)
   To: ALL
 From: JACK WOEHR
 Subj: RCFB MODEM ACCESS NEWS

 From the RCFB in Golden, Colorado:

         Several users have been reporting trouble accessing the
 RCFB at 1200 baud recently. We are looking into this problem. We
 strongly recommend 2400 baud.

         The RCFB intends to upgrade to 9600/14.4 access as soon
 as practical.

                         =jax=

 NET/Mail : RCFB Golden, CO (303) 278-0364 VESTA & Denver FIG for
 Forth! ---
  * The GrapeVine/Ferret Face BBS * NLR,ARK * 501-753-8121 DS *
  * PostLink(tm) v1.02  GRAPEVINE (#318) : RelayNet(tm)

 PCRelay:RUNNINGA -> #2 RelayNet (tm) 4.11                The
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Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
From: dak@messua.informatik.rwth-aachen.de (David Kastrup)
Subject: Forth as high level language
Organization: Rechnerbetrieb Informatik  /  RWTH Aachen
Date:  7 Oct 92 00:49:58 GMT

I know I will get bunches of fan mail for this, but...
I heard just mentioned here that some people wrote programs in Forth
that outperformed the Assembler predecessors because of better methods.

That can happen easily, because in higher level languages you tend to
tackle problems more daringly, with techniques inherently more complex
(sophisticated tree structures, hash chains, algorithms ...)

I have prgrammed in a lot of languages ranging from Assembler to TeX
and whatever, and I do find that When programming in Forth I do not
produce as efficient algorithms as in languages such as, say, Pascal
or C++. I find it takes more personal discipline to tackle a
sophisticated algorithm in Forth than in most other languages I use.
So I do not do it. But Forth is a fun language to implement and
to post about to newsgroups.
From: ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Forth Engines / Harris
Date: 2 Oct 92 12:15:08 GMT
Organization: EIEI-U

Category 9,  Topic 7
Message 82        Fri Oct 02, 1992
E.RATHER [Elizabeth]         at 01:24 EDT
 
Harris discontinued active promotion of the RTX due to high-level corporate
indigestion following acquisition of a GE subsidiary the previous year.  That
is, the decision didn't involve the project itself, but a need to discontinue
most cash-intensive operations which that promised to be for another year or
two.  At the time of its death it was ahead of most of its projections. 
Harris did promise its high-volume customers to continue to make parts so long
as orders came in (I think >10,000), and have kept the cell in its library for
custom deals and rad-hard applications.
-----
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From: chrisg@cbmvax.commodore.com (Chris Green)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: Forth under Unix - a scripting language
Date: 29 Sep 92 18:46:23 GMT
Reply-To: chrisg@cbmvax.commodore.com (Chris Green)
Organization: Commodore, West Chester, PA

In article <11346@minnie.informatik.uni-kiel.dbp.de> uho@informatik.uni-kiel.dbp.de (Ulrich Hoffmann) writes:
>In <11342@minnie.informatik.uni-kiel.dbp.de> uho@informatik.uni-kiel.dbp.de (Ulrich Hoffmann) writes:
>
>>#!/usr/bin/forth
>
>A Forth interpreter is most likely to live in   /usr/local/bin  instead of
>/usr/bin  so define also
>
>>: #!/usr/local/bin/forth ( -- )  [compile] \ ;   immediate
>

	Similar hack:

	The Amiga has a nice hypertext program called AmigaGuide. Its files consist
of ascii text with intermixed commands (which start with @). So, I made dummy
forth words for all of the common @ commands and was able to turn the source
code for a program into a readable AmigaGuide document, will a table of
contents and links from function to function, and still have it compile.
-- 
*-------------------------------------------*---------------------------*
|Chris Green - Graphics Software Engineer   - chrisg@commodore.COM      f
|                  Commodore-Amiga          - uunet!cbmvax!chrisg       n
|My opinions are my own, and do not         - icantforgettheimpression  o
|necessarily represent those of my employer.- youmadeyouleftaholeinthe  r
|"A screaming comes across the sky..."      - backofmyhead              d
*-------------------------------------------*---------------------------*
From: ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Who's here
Date: 26 Sep 92 12:33:00 GMT
Organization: EIEI-U

Category 1,  Topic 8
Message 47        Fri Sep 25, 1992
ELLIOTT.C                    at 12:44 EDT
 
 -----via CRS Premium Bulletin Board
 Date: 09-23-92 (22:33)
   To: ALL
 From: THOMAS HEIDGER
 Subj: NEW CONFERENCE MEMBER

 Hi, I am new to the FORTH conference, and just wanted to let
 everyone know I'm here... I have been programming in FORTH for
 about 10 to 12 years at work and at home. If I can help with any
 questions, I am available.... See Ya...

 PCRelay:SPACE -> #606 RelayNet (tm) 4.11             (415) 323-
 4193 * BoardWatch Mag Top 10 BBS *  

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From: mikeh@kralizec.zeta.org.au (Michael Hore)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: Forth will Replace C
Date: 30 Sep 92 12:34:11 GMT
Organization: Kralizec Dialup Unix Sydney: +61-2-837-1183 V.32


ahaley@eoe.co.uk (Andrew Haley) writes:

>A beauty contest is a good idea; the most beautiful software I have
>ever read has been written in Forth.  But there's a lot more to beauty
>than just understandability.

Very true, but understandability is a good way to open the innings.
(US folks read: "good way to get to first base".  Others: "good
place to start".)

(Being Australian gives one a degree of multiculturalism.)

-- Mike.

--------------------------------------------------------
Mike Hore        Internet:    mikeh@kralizec.zeta.org.au
From: s921878@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au (Daniel John Lee Parnell)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: rtx-2000
Date: 27 Sep 92 02:22:43 GMT
Organization: RMIT Computer Centre
NNTP-Posting-Host: minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au

	Hi, my fathers company uses the RTX-2000 in one of their products
and Harris has assured them that there enough of the chips in stock to last
for quite a while.


				Daniel

-- 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My e-mail address is s921878@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au    131.170.20.80 (it think)
Theres no point in being grown up if you cant act childish sometimes : Dr Who
From: John_Somerville@mindlink.bc.ca (John Somerville)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: email addr for Lou Odette?
Date: 4 Oct 92 21:08:45 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world

Does anyone know the email address for Lou Odette?

regards john
--
john somerville B.C. Hydro
affiliations FIG Forth Interest Group
From: mikc@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Mike Coughlin)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: Forth will Replace C
Date: 29 Sep 92 13:01:56 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization

In article <1992Sep21.074932.5670@email.tuwien.ac.at> anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Martin Ertl) writes:
>In article <1992Sep11.123911.21622@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu>,
>mikc@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Mike Coughlin) writes:
>|> In article <1992Sep11.115043.6038@email.tuwien.ac.at> anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Martin Ertl) writes:
>
>|>     The obfuscated C contest is very popular, but Forth should
>|> do things in the opposite way that C does to gain efficiency. There
>|> should be a Forth beauty contest. I could be a judge in such a
>|> contest. If I read the comments and understand the program,
>|> the author deserves a prize.
> 
>If Forth needed this, it would really be in a sorry state. On the
>other hand, something like the "Programming Pearls" or "Literary
>Programming" columns of CACM would be nice. Anyone to publish such a
>thing?
   
   Forth is in a sorry state. We constantly hear that programmers are
not allowed to use Forth at work because not even the author of Forth code 
can read it after a short time. Since assembly language and C programs
are perfectly acceptable, you can get around this by by writing a 
Forth system in assembly or C. Such an approach will work since managers
can tell when assembly or C code is properly commented but they have
no idea what a commented Forth program should look like.
   I don't read CACM (but I'll look for it in the future), and I don't
know what is written in the above columns. But anything that will
improve the readability of Forth code will go a long way to make Forth
popular. We should get readable Forth code published where prospective
Forth programmers and technical managers can see it.
From: ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Cross Compilers
Date: 28 Sep 92 11:33:46 GMT
Organization: EIEI-U

Category 3,  Topic 39
Message 4         Sun Sep 27, 1992
B.RODRIGUEZ2 [Brad]          at 09:04 EDT
 
Mike, I also thank you for your fine explanation of CLONE.  This is quite an
elegant concept.  BTW, I believe that in addition to you and Mitch Bradley,
Sergei Baranoff has developed such a facility.

Let me point out, however, that CLONE serves the function I have been calling
"recompiler," and is not a true cross-compiler.  Your CLONE cannot produce
code for a different CPU.  This is not a criticism -- 9 out of 10 Forth
programmers need nothing more! -- but simply an observation that the problems
of cross-compilers are still with us.

I recall reading some comments by Mitch on the subject of addresses vs. data,
and I quite agree that this is an architectural weaknesss. I've run into this
one myself.  I wish someone would propose a clean and complete solution to
this problem, so that I could try it out. (I think Mitch did so, but, alas,
I've lost the original posting.)

> Is there such a cross-compiler that does not require some
 > 'tweaking' of the code?  I've never seen one.

Depends on what you mean by 'tweaking.'  Stephen Pelc is either too modest, or
inhibited by Internet restrictions, so let me mention that his MPE cross-
compiler let me move Forth definitions from resident compilation to cross-
compilation with NO changes.  None. Zero.  This includes defining words and
CODE words.  I can also directly fiddle areas in the compiled image with @ and
! .

(Caveats: some care is necessary in the use of defining words; this is well
documented in the manual, and so far has not resulted in my having to change
any code.  I believe new IMMEDIATE words may require some special treatment,
but so far I haven't used any. There was an artifact in creating assembler
subroutines -- not CODE words -- that required a slightly different syntax
between the two environments, but I'm told this has been fixed in the latest
release.)

It _can_ be done.

Brad Rodriguez
 B.RODRIGUEZ2 on GEnie   |   bradford@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca
 So many projects....so little time.

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From: Mike.Haas@mailbox.bison.mb.ca (Mike Haas)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: cross compilers
Date: 24 Sep 92 19:43:08 CST

Organization: StarNine Technologies, Inc.

In article <11239@minnie.informatik.uni-kiel.dbp.de> uho@informatik.uni-kiel.dbp.de (Ulrich Hoffmann) writes:
>In <Buynq4.Hwo@starnine.com> mikeh@starnine.com (Mike Haas) writes about
>his forth compiler CLONE.
>
>Mike, thank you very much for your explanations. I find them very interesting.
>
>>I think Mitch will agree with this:  developing CLONE brought to the
>>surface a few architectural problems with Forth that should NOT EXIST
>>in any compiled language.  An example is that it is permissable to
>>use ADDRESSES the same as DATA (they can be compiled via LITERAL as
>>an example).
>
>
>a) What do you do, if your program contains commands of the interactive development
>   environment (edit, load, forget, debug, ...), eg.:
>
>b) The main problem arises when you have to interpret at program runtime. 
>   dpANS has the word EVAL in the core word set. How do you handle, (will you handle)
>   uses of EVAL. eg.   
>
>c) What do you do if your application uses FIND but you don't have a dictionary in 
>   your compiled code.
>  
>
>I think it should be possible to generate forth applications similar to your approach.
>To me it would be reasonable to restrict the usage of some words in the application code. 
>
>Greetings,
>        Ulrich
>
>P.S. I'm involved in the APPLY project (funded by the German Minister of Science 
>and Technology) which focuses on application compilation for CommonLisp. We're
>facing very similar problems. 	
>
>Ulrich Hoffmann                   email: uh@informatik.uni-kiel.dbp.de  
>Institut fuer Informatik, Universitaet Kiel        Tel: +49 431 560426 
>Preusserstr 1-9, D-2300 Kiel 1, Germany            Fax: +49 431 566143

Thanks for the questions... they are quite applicable and
it's reassuring to know that at least some
of my explanation was understandable. :-)

CLONE never includes the dictionary headers in it's output program.
It is oriented toward using Forth as a TRUE general-purpose language, i.e.,
it does not allow for the use of Forth INTERPRET/FIND... Forth-specific
Algorithms that depend on the dictionary being present.  In this respect,
it is very much like C... if you want code-generating or database-style
tracking words in your application, you write 'em (and probably come
up with algorithms better suited to your application than FIND etc.).

This also neatly handles the legal issues of including JForth's
compiler components in applications.  The programs created by
CLONE are royalty-free, since that can't be done.  We have never
had a complaint that the compiler or dictionary-traversing words
could not be used in an application.

Now if someone wants to market an application that uses FIND, JForth
includes a TURNKEY facility that modifies the JForth image in place,
but the resultant executables are, of course, much larger than what CLONE
produces.  To our knowledge, no one has done this.

 * Origin: The Electronic Mailbox (1:348/7.0)
From: ForthNet@willett.pgh.pa.us (ForthNet articles from GEnie)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Artificial Intelligence
Date: 2 Oct 92 12:15:05 GMT
Organization: EIEI-U

Category 6,  Topic 11
Message 22        Fri Oct 02, 1992
E.RATHER [Elizabeth]         at 01:19 EDT
 
Regarding Forth in AI, we have used AI techniques in a variety of applications
over the years.  Most recognizable were expert systems and fuzzy logic
diagnostics built for McDonnell Dougless and the Naval Ocean Systems Center,
but as early as 1978 we wrote the equivalent of expert systems for the Army
and Allen Testproducts. Jack Park was selling Forth expert systems for
years...don't know the current status.

I suspect the only things keeping Forth out of the mainstream in this has been
lack of involvement by any recognized expert (luck: right place/right time),
promotion of the work that _was_ done ($$), issues that have plagued Forth
right along.  But technically, it's certainly much more directly and
immediately applicable than C.
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