From: hartigan@ac.dal.ca
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Torture and the mind: _Star Trek_ vs. _1984_. 
Date: 1 Jan 93 23:53:07 -0400
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

In article <1993Jan2.005123.28155@pslu1.psl.wisc.edu>, johnson@whitewater.chem.wisc.edu (Art Johnson) writes:
> 
>      Juxtaposing the latest STNNG story with _1984_ like this brought the  
> following thoughts to mind. Both stories, I think, have very different  
> underlying premises concerning what a human being is. What the STTNG story  
> affirms is the classical and Western Christian view that a human person  
> can be split into a body and a soul, with the body being essentially the  
> "shell" or "prison" in which the soul either resides or is trapped in.  
> While the body and soul are in close proximity to each other, ultimately  
> they are two separate, disconnected things. That's why Picard's body could  
> be "burnt", so to speak, but his soul remained "pure".
> 
>      In _1984_, Orwell's premise concerning humanity is different. While a  
> human person is still composed of a body and a soul, there is no split  
> between the two, i.e. body and soul form a complete organic union, at all  
> times. There is no place where the body leaves off and the soul begins.  
> Consequently, whatever affects the body also affects the soul, and  
> vice-versa. This is why a torturer _can_ get inside you, if she is good  
> enough.

This seems like a reasonable way to think about this. The only reservation
I have is that I think Orwell would be touchy about saying a person
is made up of body and soul. "Soul," in an atheistic sense, means 
personality, whatever it is that makes a person unique, not some kind
of substance.

The other interesting point is that in actuality, Orwell turns out to
be right. Skilled interrogators armed with the latest technology are
in fact irresistable, I am assured by a local member of Amnesty 
International. The vision of humanity espoused by STTNG turns out
to be false. Some people take longer than others to break, but
everyone breaks in the end. They can dismantle your personality
and rebuild you as the person they want you to be, providing your
body is strong enough to survive the extreme methods required to
effect this process. So it goes. I am not sure if this discredits
Christianity or not...

If you remember, Winston Smith takes essentially the STTNG position in
his arguments with O'Brien, his torturer. And Smith _does_ hold out
until he is brought to Room 101. 

>> Well, enough for now. 
> 
>      Now, I'm going to think about how _1984_ relates to religion, and get  
> back to you on that. :-)

Well, what does it say about "souls" if a skilled interrogator with 
sufficient time and resources can take even the most dedicated Christian
and turn him or her into a fanatical atheist (or vice versa)?  As I said,
I am assured by a man who has been involved with Amnesty International
for years that this not only _can_ be done, but _has_ been done more
often than we will ever know. 

There are many other interesting questions that _1984_ raises regarding
religion...I'd be interested to knock them around. 

> Arthur Johnson
> johnson@whitewater.chem.wisc.edu
> 
> "When I sold you, and you sold me..." -- _1984_

Nice choice of quote! :)

Sean Hartigan
hartigan@ac.dal.ca
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,alt.pagan