HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: seurer@rchland.vnet.ibm.com (Bill Seurer)
Subject: Re: The Hobbit
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 16:02:06 GMT
Reply-To: BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Rochester

Well, I found a copy of the same edition of the Hoobit that I lost for
only $1.25 at a used bookstore.  I checked on the new edition too.  Bleah!
It's cover is worse than that of Return of the King.

Speaking of which, the copy of the Hobbit I picked up was the 78th printing.
Wow.  What printing are the current ones?  How many copies have actually
been sold?
-- 

- Bill Seurer     Language and Compiler Development      IBM Rochester, MN
  Internet: BillSeurer@vnet.ibm.com    America On-Line: BillSeurer@aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: watson@sce.carleton.ca (Stephen Watson)
Subject: Re: Tolkien a Racist?
Organization: Carleton University
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 21:55:34 GMT

About orc-human hybrids and "evil" races:

I suspect that Tolkien may have shared the "genteel racism" of his
generation, which, while not openly advocating hatred against anyone,
involved making generalizations about racial groups, and included a
prejudice against inter-breeding.  Today we dispprove of this
dispproval ;-), but we really cannot fault our predecessors too badly
for having accepted it.  History is an ugly place.

I would like to suggest though that there is an implicitly "racist"
element in much (most?) fantasy: the minions of evil are frequently
some biologically distinct species, different from the "good guys",
vicious, hate-filled and irredeemably evil by nature, too dangerous to
be allowed to live, fit only for extermination.  Since much fantasy is
a morality tale (certainly LOTR is), this is alright, perhaps even
necessary.  The orcs/urviles/wights/svarts/whatever are not just
characters, they are evil personified, and Good must destroy Evil.

So if you want to draw conclusions about Tolkiens attitudes here, you
must ask: is he thinking of orcs as "people" of some kind?  Or only as
the literary cyphers of his morality tale? (Yes, I know, he didn't
intend to write a morality tale; he hated preachy fiction, but IMHO,
LOTR wound up that way anyway.  Its such a well-told one, you just
don't notice ;-)

The danger comes when leaders in the real world try to do that to real
opponents: demonize them, whip up hatred against them, make them out
to be no better (and no more valuable) than the fictional orcs.  (That's
what frightened me about a certain former US president).
--
==Steve Watson: watson@sce.carleton.ca===Carleton University, Ottawa, Ontario==
| The above is the output of a 7th-order Markovian analysis of all posts on   |
| this group for the past month.  Not only is it not Carleton's opinion, it's |
| not even *my* opinion: it's really just a mish-mash of all YOUR opinions!   |
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: esuzuki@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Erika Suzuki)
Subject: Re: Eowyn
To: gds@cs.ucla.edu
Organization: The Ohio State University
 <1h2b84INN9qn@mailgzrz.TU-Berlin.DE>
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 06:48:18 GMT

Hi, i've been reading the posts with interest, and here's my $0.02 about Eowin.

I'm not going to analyze the situation... just give you how i read the story as 
a woman/girl.

As a young teen, when I read the story, my impression was that she was a
capable, heroic, and unhappy woman. I regarded her as someone I could relate to
most, because she wanted something but was hindered by the society, but then
made the best of it in a very individual, independent way. When she finally
settled down, I was slightly disappointed as an ambitious girl losing a
heroine. I did not see it as a message that a woman should settle down, or stay
at home, though.

What I saw was that one should do what one feels compelled to, and should try
to one's heart's content. And that happiness comes in many ways....

I think I wanted to say this because some male posters seem to think a message
here that a woman gets is a discouragement from deviating from the traditional
role. Well, at least in my experience, Eowin's accomplishment, including being
able to keep her feminine side, was a positive ingredient of the book.

Of course, it would have been more fun if there were more like her in the
story....

_________________________________________________________________________
Never bothered with a good SIG file :)

Erika Suzuki
_________________________________________________________________________
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: An Apology (was Re: Eowyn)
Summary: 
Expires: 
e.sce.carleton.ca> <1992Dec21.014107.3735@leland.Stanford.EDU>
Followup-To: 
Distribution: 
Organization: The Ohio State University
Keywords:
From: mvoorhis@bigwpi.WPI.EDU (Michael C Voorhis)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: ME maps
Date: 18 Dec 92 11:16:58
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute, Worcester, MA 01609-2280
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigwpi.wpi.edu
In-reply-to: donini@masg1.epfl.ch's message of 18 Dec 92 14:08:32 GMT

In article <1992Dec18.150832@masg1.epfl.ch> donini@masg1.epfl.ch (Pier Donini) writes:
> What are, in your opinion, the most trustable maps of Western Middle Earth?
> I personally think that the ones done by ICE for MERP are the best ones...
> that I saw. The maps of "Journeys of Frodo" or from "The Atlas of ME" look
> a bit weak (well, the 'atlas' seems quite ok). I also feel that the maps
> from the books are *very* weak (and sometimes in contradiction with the
> text).

Considering the revelations we've had here about ICE's `fact-making'
policies, I'm surprised anyone would assume anything that they made had a
basi, but that's just my own personal opinion.

I consider Chris Tolkien's maps the gospel, when I can't get a copy of an
actual JRR Tolkien-penned map.  Ms. Fonstad's assumptions in `The Atlas of
Middle Earth' aren't really damaging in my opinion, and she backs up
*everything* with citations, which I find very satisfying.  If you are
really looking for good data, look at Chris Tolkien's maps, and if
necissary, at Ms.  Fonstad's book.  When looking for good data, leave the
game playing equipment to the gamers.

	Mike.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: uh311ae@sunmanager.LRZ-Muenchen.DE (Henrik Klagges)
Subject: Re: "Passing away" into the West (was Re: Rivendell)
Organization: Leibniz-Rechenzentrum, Muenchen (Germany)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 17:46:35 GMT

jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU (James Alexander Chokey) writes:
>	In any case, passing across the Sea seems to be the Elvish equivalent 
>of death.  Tolkien certainly does seem to use a good deal of deathly language
>and symbolism to describe the Elves' journey from the mortal lands of Middle-
>earth to the Undying Lands of the Uttermost West.

>	--  Jim C. <jchokey@leland.stanford.edu>
I disagree, for a simple reason. The elvish equivalent for death _is_ death,
after all they can be slain, commit suicide, or perish by disease. The only
difference is that they are not bound to die unconditionally, as the mortals
are. To be more finicky, both elven & human warriors sit in the very same
halls of Mandos after their death (I have to admit, though, that T hints
different fates for them afterwards).
Henrik

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: rao@moose.cccs.umn.edu (Rao Akella)
Subject: Re: Eowyn
Reply-To: rao@moose.cccs.umn.edu
Organization: Colon Cancer Control Study, University of Minnesota, Minneapolis
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 01:42:13 GMT



Here's my reading of Eowyn acting as she did.  While Theoden was under
Wormtongue's influence (as was she, indirectly), she may have tired of how low
the King's character and will had sunk, and of caring for a near-invalid.  When
Gandalf snaps Theoden out of his inertia, she comes out of her depression too,
only to fall immediately in love with Aragorn, who, while he pities her, is
unable to return her love.  This rejection really puts the "frost" on her, and
she decides she's had enough of a woman's confined life, and she actively
desires to participate in wars and do great deeds on the battlefield and win
great renown for herself.  I believe she wants to do this merely to "score one
off Aragorn," as Wodehouse might have put it -- she badly wants to something,
anything, so get Aragorn's attention (in fact, Faramir tells her this plainly
to her face).  Nothing wrong or unbelievable about that -- any one of us would
probably use equally drastic attention-getting tactics under the pain of
unrequited love (I know I've done some stupid things in my life).

I see nothing very special about her dressing up as a man to ride to Gondor. 
She was frustrated in her attempts to join them, and every time she broached
the topic, everyone told her that "they also serve who stand and wait," and
that duty bade her stay behind at Dunharrow to take care of the civilians.  Her
only recourse was to disguise herself as a man to escape being spotted by
Theoden and being forced to return home.

As for her suddenly deciding to forego her dreams of a warrior's life, it's
simply because she falls in love with Faramir.  Again, I don't find this very
incredible -- the best cure for unrequited love is to find someone else to love
you, which Faramir does (it was probably love at first sight for him).  Once
this cures her of her infatuation for Aragorn (I believe that's all it was),
she reverts to her usual self and decides to settle down with Faramir.

I'm prepared to back up every single opinion with quotes from the canon, if
need be.

What do you think, Sirs?

-- Rao Akella    <rao@moose.cccs.umn.edu, rao%moose@umnacvx.bitnet>

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: woodam@aix.rpi.edu (Matthew G. Woodard)
Subject: Re: Balrogs vs. Ringwraiths ... and a questi
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 21:09:25 GMT

> Sauron wasn't a balrog, was he?  If not, what exactly was he?

Actually, Balrogs are Maia of fire that were perverted by Melkor. 
Sauron is a Maia of Aule (the smith of the Valar) who was perverted by Melkor.

woodam@rpi.edu



Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: hammekr@eng.auburn.edu (Kenneth R. Hammett)
Subject: Re: Thomas Covenant
Reply-To: hammekr@eng.auburn.edu
Organization: Auburn University Engineering
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 03:03:13 GMT

In article 1gfojtINN7eg@uwm.edu, glenne@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Neuromancer ) writes:
>However I believe that the philosophy of "resist not one who is evil"
>is the height of wisdom.  Of course this does not make sense to you or
>most other people because it is incompatible with your values.  
> 
>Humanity througout the ages has believed that being good is synonomous with
>coming out on top.  And so we have all these storytellers lieing to us
>with all of our stories ending with the good guy standing on the throat
>of the bad guy.  Some liars are better than others.  Tolkien was the best
>of them all.  Now of course Tolkien, like all the others believed his 
>lies.  
> 
>Unfortunately life is not like the wonderful stories that we read.  Life 
>is not fair.  Our attempts at making life fair fail completely in anything
>but making life more complex.  Good guys do not finish first.  Good guys 
>finish last.  And so what it all boils down to is that you have to choose
>between being good and winning.  Almost universally humanity has chosen
>the latter.  
> 
>Glenn                                    glenne@csd4.csd.uwm.edu


I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean by "being good or winning"
as your definition of "being good" is ,to me, foggy at best.
As to "good guys finish last" have you recently been dumped or do you
just drink too much coffee?  With such a completely cynical view of
human nature you might as well give in and look at us as extremely efficient
replicators for DNA.  Or have I misunderstood your philosophy?

*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*
*                                                               *
*  Rich Hammett                      "Why does it happen?       *
*  Rich.Hammett@eng.auburn.edu         Because it happens.      *
*                                        Roll the Bones!"       *
*                                                               *
*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*>*<*

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: solovay@netcom.com (Andrew M. Solovay)
Subject: Re: Question: don't read if you don't want to help
Summary: Orcrist and Glamdring, of course.
Organization: Jews for Melkor
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 01:40:27 GMT

I answered this via EMail. Probably no-one else should, as I
suspect the poor child would be badly startled by a flood of
EMail...

(FWIW: Orcrist and Glamdring, Goblin-cleaver and Foe-hammer,
Biter and Beater (or Beater and Biter?).)
-- 
Andrew Solovay    

"We all have faults, and mine is being wicked."
                --- The Duke of Coffin Castle
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk)
Subject: Re: Good and evil things (was Re: Technology and Morality in LOTR)
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 21:28:24 GMT

dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) writes:
>I can't think off-hand of an example of something in LOTR that is
>inherently good.  The two trees of Valinor, perhaps?  Although one
>could argue that, as they were used to help create the Silmarils
>which caused much evil, they had a possibility of evil.

Well, let's have some examples of "good" items:
1.  The elf-cloaks, garden dust, phial, and acorn of Galadriel
2.  The swords of the Barrow-downs, which the Orcs were afraid to even touch.

>No, I'm afraid that it is easier to be evil in LOTR then to be good.

That's because it was easier for Sauron to be powerfully evil than it was
for anyone else to be powerfully good.  Sauron was a Maia, and that meant
huge power over lots of things.  Since these magics were creations by
mortals, I'm sure Sauron could have understood their power and found a way
to turn them to evil.  After all, it is unlikely a mortal (even an Elf
Lord) could outdo a Maiar (Sauron) or a Valar (Morgoth).  In other words,
nobody in Middle-Earth had the knowledge of how to construct something that
Sauron couldn't figure out and eventually corrupt, which was reasonable
since Sauron was the most poweful creature in Middle-earth and the only
other beings of similar stature (the Wizards) never created anything of note.

					Michael Lewchuk
					lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: erikt@sci.kun.nl (Erik van de Tier)
Subject: Re: Balrogs, Nazgul, and Sauron
Organization: University of Nijmegen, The Netherlands
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 14:33:21 GMT

Wayne J. Broughton writes:

>I thought the Nazgul were actually trying to take possession of the
>Ring.  What good would it have done them just to kill Frodo?  They
                                                  ^^^^
They weren't going to kill Frodo. If the knifepoint would have reached
Frodo's heart, he wouldn't be killed but would have become one off the
Nazgul. In that case they would have the ring (end of the story)!



______________________________________________________________________
Erik van der Tier (erikt@sci.kun.nl)
From: solovay@netcom.com (Andrew M. Solovay)
Subject: Re: Sorry to belabor this, but...
Organization: Jews for Melkor
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 01:33:33 GMT

In article <carl-141292183712@mac7.gsfc.nasa.gov> carl@class.gsfc.nasa.gov (Carl F. Hostetter) writes:
>> 
>> Thus spake rwang@husc8.harvard.edu (Richard Wang):
>> >And what
>> >about his original name--Iarwain Ben-Adar, if my memory serves me correctly?
>> >Can one of the linguists out there tell me what that means?
>
>The name is Sindarin.
>"Iarwain" is 'oldest'.
>"Ben" must be 'without'.
>"Adar" is 'father' (cf. Quenya _atar_ 'father' in _Ataratani_ 'Fathers
>of Men').

Of course, that's not his *name*, original or otherwise; that's
just what the elves call him. We don't know that he ever calls
himself "Iarwain Ben-Adar". So "oldest and fatherless" is just
another educated guess.

Anyway, "oldest" might just mean "oldest of his kind"; and
"fatherless" might mean that he was created by Eru directly, and
was not the child of a created being. (There are/were several
Elves, Men, and Dwarves who could accurately be called
"fatherless".)
-- 
Andrew Solovay    

"SILENCE = QUIET"
                --Girljock Magazine
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: ferret@paradox.engin.umich.edu (kenneth r lipka)
Subject: Re: Should LOTR Movie be Made?
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 14:06:11 EST
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor
Originator: ferret@paradox.engin.umich.edu


In article <1gqltdINN12a@uwm.edu>, paulg@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Paul A Gunderson) writes:
> 
> Whenever I think of LotR being made into a movie, I think "Dune" and become
> very, very afraid.  I have no doubt that there are many people who loved
> that movie, but I have yet to find a die-hard fan of the Dune books who does
> anything but shudder when the movie is mentioned.
> 
> 

	I'll have you know that I am a die-hard fan of the entire over-blown and convoluted "Dune" series and I think the movie is a quite adequate presentation of the book.  Especially without it becoming massively overblown as the books have become.

	Also, I have never had a problem with movies obliterating my viewing of characters in books.  That is because I only visulaize the voices; the pictures come from what is in the text.  This means that unless the animator is two-bit and cheap, animated versions of anything always look like the characters "should" (becuase they followed from the text as well).

	Always glad to prove the other person wrong
	(as well as offering a different opinion),
	Ken Lipka
	ferret@engin.umich.edu
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: sh666@selway.umt.edu (Dave)
Subject: Re: Led Zeppelin (Tolkien Music) [and RUSH]
Organization: University of Montana
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 00:09:51 GMT

I have found that many 'death metal' bands are named after
people/places within LoTR and other Tolkien works..
        
Cirith Ungol
Morgoth
Pits of Utumno
Ungoliant

There are more but those are the few that I can remember now.
I thought it was kinda interesting...

							David

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: sh666@selway.umt.edu (Dave)
Subject: Re: Should LOTR Movie be Made?
Organization: University of Montana
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 03:16:41 GMT

Being a budding filmaker myself I have often pondered this..
Each movie would have to be trememdously long (2-3 hours) to
begin to even touch what is in the books.  There would have to
be absolutely no tampering with the original story (although
it would be interesting to see where 'Hollywood would try to
fit in a nudity scene).  As for the budget....  it would be
outrageous!  I would still like to see someone take a crack at
it though.
							Dave
From: glenne@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Neuromancer )
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Thomas Covenant
Date: 13 Dec 1992 16:33:01 GMT
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.4

To paraphrase what you said, orcs are generally so evil that they deserve
death, and one should feel no guilt in killing them.  
 
Let me say that I am definitely NOT politically correct.  I know of
one person who shares my values.   First of all, I do not believe in 
feeling guilt for anything.  One cannot change what one has done in
the past.  One can only choose what to do in the present.  Torturing 
yourself for mistakes does neither yourself nor anyone else any good.
However I believe that the philosophy of "resist not one who is evil"
is the height of wisdom.  Of course this does not make sense to you or
most other people because it is incompatible with your values.  
 
Humanity througout the ages has believed that being good is synonomous with
coming out on top.  And so we have all these storytellers lieing to us
with all of our stories ending with the good guy standing on the throat
of the bad guy.  Some liars are better than others.  Tolkien was the best
of them all.  Now of course Tolkien, like all the others believed his 
lies.  
 
Unfortunately life is not like the wonderful stories that we read.  Life 
is not fair.  Our attempts at making life fair fail completely in anything
but making life more complex.  Good guys do not finish first.  Good guys 
finish last.  And so what it all boils down to is that you have to choose
between being good and winning.  Almost universally humanity has chosen
the latter.  
 
Glenn                                    glenne@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: mdickey@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Gaelmeth)
Subject: Aragorn
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 21:49:04 GMT

Ok.  I have a question that might be answered in
_The Silmirillian_.  What is the story of Narsil
and its becoming broken?  And how did there become
a prophecy of its being reforged?

I apologize for not referencing the Valaquenta,
but it is the only MAJOR book that I do not have
right now.

Also, why in Middle-Earth was Aragorn SO against
going through Khazad dum in _The Fellowship_?
Did he have some idea of what was to come?  Or did
he AND Gandalf have a clue?  I would not think the
latter COULD be the case - I do not believe Gandalf
would have voluntarily gone into Moria knowing
that the Balrog would be there to challenge him.
But, Aragorn was obviously troubled about the place.
Maybe it was just its recent history?  Lead me to
the answer.  :)

Mike D.
 ____ ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
[  _ \ Purdue      \ dickeyml@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
 ||_|| University    \  mdickey@sage.cc.purdue.edu     |\
 | __/ Boilermakers.   \-------------------------------   \
 ||    4-0 and still running, and dunking, and blocking.... >
[__]  ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,   /
                                                       |/
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk)
Subject: Re: Tolkien: Elf+Human = children...
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 23:15:59 GMT

nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Nancy Lebovitz) writes:
>Sort of vaguely on the subject, does anyone have any theories about why
>the elf/human marriages are always between a male human and a female elf?
>(I have a feeling that it isn't coincidence, but I'm not sure what the
>significance might be.) >Nancy Lebovitz >nancy@genie.slhs.udel.edu

Perhaps because no female humans (at least in LOTR and The Hobbit) ever
have associated in any way with elves?

I'm not sure about this in Middle-Earth history, but it seems to me that:
a) the Elves have generally isolated themselves from human contact, either
   intentionally (Galadriel) or because they live in the middle of nowhere
   surrounded by areas inhabited by orcs and trolls (Elrond's House, and
   the Wood Elves of Mirkwood).
b) The only people to do more than visit elf-places all seem to be
   adventurers.  In fact, the species of the West all seem to be highly
   introverted, so nobody but an adventurer goes anywhere, usually.
c) Adventurers are always male, at least in LOTR and The Hobbit.

Thus, the only humans to have close contact with Elves are male adventurers.
Elves are preoccupied with elf-things and generally don't want to stay in
Middle-Earth.  Note that the male human seems to "win the hand in marriage
of the elf-maiden" by performing some heroic deed to conquer the foes of the
Eldar and the Valar.  I believe Elrond implies that Aragorn, even though he
is of the lineage of the Kings of Westernesse is yet far below the lineage
of Arwen Evenstar.  This implies that the Elves have, at least, a rather
high opinion of themselves and Elf-things.  Why should any Elf with such
a high opinion of himself/herself settle for anything less than the best among
mortals?  Note: the Elves seem to be portrayed more akin to the devas of
Middle-Earth (since they are "immortals") while men are "mere mortals".  The
Elves don't sneer upon humans, but neither do they treat humans as equals --
there still seems to be much difference in being a "mortal man" vs. an
"immortal elf".

					Michael Lewchuk
					lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien