HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lhdsy1!nntpserver.chevron.com!grouch.calgary.chevron.com!vstem@uunet.uu.net  (D. Stewart McLeod)
Subject: Re: Apollo networking alternatives
Organization: chevron
Distribution: fj
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 18:26:46 GMT
Return-Path: <apollo-list-errors@srvr1.engin.umich.edu>

In article <1993Jan22.235401.11236@btree.uucp>, brunkow@btree.uucp (Susan Brunkow) writes:
..stuff deleted...

 Sue, tried to email you but it just bounced back. So I shall post my
 response here.


Sue, I have had some experience in moving from the wonderfull world of Apollo
Token Ring to ethernet (although only about 30 workstations not 50). I thought
I would relay some of my experiences to you.

Originally we had everyone in the same building and on the same 
network (A.T.R.). Now is a different story. We are in two buildings and
on two different networks - ethernet and A.T.R. 

Originally I was very skeptical about the move to ethernet ( I had no choice,
as this is what the hardware group chose (sp?)). I moved one workstation
up to ethernet (twisted pair - great stuff to work with..already in everyones
office) and had a hell of a time with it - I forgot to put a rgyd on it!

After this first workstation was installed and running, I moved it over to 
the other building. It worked just fine. All I had to do was change the IP
address and it worked flawlessly. I recommend you move one workstation over
at first and have it run (glbd, llbd, ns_helper and rgyd).

The rest of the move was very easy. Rip out the A.T.R. card and put in an
ethernet card. Move and power up. Oh a major key here is to remove the
/sys/node_data/hint_file first. Things really get messed up if you fail to
do this.

As for your comment about Apollos being a pain on ethernet, I too thought
this but I have been pleasantly surprised. Granted ethernet degrades when
the load is heavy, but you can always create sub nets if you have to. We
just did that here as some DEC boxes and X terminals that access them were
hogging the network so they were moved onto their own ethernet sub-net.

All in all, the move to ethernet was painless. I must add that if you go this
way take the course "Administering Your DOMAIN/OS Internet" from HP. THis
made things as easy as they were. It also gave me contacts of people who were
going to do the same thing I was.

Hope my $0.02 worth is of use. If you need more info or have any questions
email to the address below.

- -- 
D. Stew McLeod                     Internet: vstem@calgary.chevron.com
CPTC					          Tel: (403) 234-5810
500, Fifth Ave. S.W.                              Fax: (403) 234-5215
Calgary, Alberta, Canada   T2P 0L7 
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.apollo
From: agate!spool.mu.edu!sdd.hp.com!swrinde!network.ucsd.edu!btree!brunkow@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU  (Susan Brunkow)
Subject: Apollo networking alternatives
Organization: Brooktree Corporation
Distribution: fj
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 23:54:01 GMT
Return-Path: <apollo-list-errors@srvr1.engin.umich.edu>



In about 6 months, we'll be moving 50 Apollos into a new building.
Currently, almost all of these machines are on Apollo Token Ring,
except for two that are on ethernet. I'm getting a lot of
"encouragement" to not use coax in the new building.
The hardware is mostly DN4500's, DN2500's, DN3000's,
and about 6 HP425t's. Our other networks (PC, Sun, and
Macintosh) are all on ethernet, running mostly on twisted
pair.


Here are the alternatives that I know of so far:

1) Put everything on ethernet, using twisted pair cabling.
This would let us use the same wiring that our Sun, Mac
and PC networks are using. But I've heard that 
Apollos are a pain on ethernet.

2) Fibermux makes boxes which allow you to run ATR on
twisted pair. This would be less expensive, since we wouldn't
need to replace all of our network boards, and it should be
faster, since it's still ATR. I've heard good reviews of these from
a couple of people, and some negative comments from one
person. We're leaning heavily towards this option right now.



If you have any experience with 50 or so Apollos on
ethernet, or with the Fibermux setup, please
e-mail me or call me. I'd really like to know what
I'm gettin in to here. If there are some other, better
options that I've missed, I'd like to hear about them.

       

Thanks!


Sue Brunkow             ...ucsd!btree!brunkow
Brooktree Corp      or  btree!brunkow@ucsd.com
San Diego, CA
(619) 535-3231
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.apollo
From: newton.auto.tuwien%email.UUCP%news.univie.ac.at%paladin.american.edu%howland.reston.ans.net%usc.UUCP%rpi.UUCP%ghost.dsi.unimi.it%insa-lyon.fr%univ-lyon1.fr%scsing.switch.ch@ira.uka.de@  (Martin J. Laubach)
Subject: Maxtor Optical Disk on Apollo
Organization: University of technology, Vienna, Austria.
Distribution: fj
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 13:58:09 GMT
Return-Path: <apollo-list-errors@srvr1.engin.umich.edu>


  I have now been trying for quite some time to connect a Maxtor
Tahiti 1 magneto-optical disk drive to our Apollos. So far, without
success. All I could do is make scsi_info actually find the drive.
But invol claims "no controller found", and mount says "device busy".
It just seems impossible...

  Yesterday, I plugged the drive into our DEC -- and it worked on
first try (well, almost -- but it is fairly easy). So much for HP's
conception of an "open system"...

	mjl
From: mcsun!dxcern!dxcern!vxcrna.cern.ch!roeber@uunet.uu.net
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.apollo
Subject: How to create a trait?
Date: 25 Jan 93 15:29:54 GMT
Distribution: fj
Organization: CERN -- European Organization for Nuclear Research
Return-Path: <apollo-list-errors@srvr1.engin.umich.edu>

The OST book discusses creating types and writing type managers, but
doesn't discuss the creation of new traits.  Does anybody know of
any information on this subject?  I'd ask HP's new Domain support
folks, but they're still working on my ios_$import and ios_$export
question.

Thanks!

-- 
Frederick G. M. Roeber | CERN -- European Center for Nuclear Research
e-mail: roeber@cern.ch or roeber@caltech.edu | work: +41 22 767 31 80
r-mail: CERN/PPE, 1211 Geneva 23, Switzerland | home: +33 50 42 19 44
--  
$ stcode 1D01001E
Vendor "Apollo" can not be deleted (network license server/server)
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.apollo
From: psinntp!isc-newsserver!ultb!rhs9145@uunet.uu.net  (R.H. Starmer)
Subject: RAM for a DN3000
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology
Distribution: fj
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 08:29:31 GMT
Return-Path: <apollo-list-errors@srvr1.engin.umich.edu>

I have a DN3000 which has 4Meg of RAM which I would like to expand to 8
Meg if possible.  Since I am on a shoestring budget, I though I would
try to make my own memory boards.  Am I crazy in attempting this?  If
not, does anyone know the pinout of the port, and wether the connector
is available (is it a standard connector of some sort?).  Has anyone
done this before?  Any info would be greatly appreciated!

Rob
rhs9145@ultb.isc.rit.edu
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.apollo
From: email!newton.auto.tuwien.ac.at!mjl@uunet.uu.net  (Martin J. Laubach)
Subject: Re: Maxtor Optical Disk on Apollo
Organization: University of technology, Vienna, Austria.
Distribution: fj
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 09:58:32 GMT
Return-Path: <apollo-list-errors@srvr1.engin.umich.edu>

|> >   I have now been trying for quite some time to connect a Maxtor
|> > Tahiti 1 magneto-optical disk drive to our Apollos.
|> 
|> Next time you post, please include enough information that someone can
|> help you without having to derive your configuration from the symptoms
|> of the problem. Model numbers and OS revision levels at least.

  Oh, I've tried that before, twice, without much success. This was only
the "gee, I give up" summary...

  Anyway, the machine is a HP/Apollo 425t under Domain/OS 10.4. The machine
"somehow" can talk to the drive, ie. scsi_info does return the correct
information -- yet invol doesn't find it ("no controller found"), and
an attempt at mounting it fails miserably ("device busy")...

|> I think you're missing something here. The Apollo was never designed to
|> be an "open system". That fact is not likely to change just because they
|> were bought by HP.

  Ah yes, I *knew* I was overlooking something :)

	mjl


-- 
         "CDTV is selling like warm pie" -- J.P. at Kanton in FFM.
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.apollo
From: email!newton.auto.tuwien.ac.at!mjl@uunet.uu.net  (Martin J. Laubach)
Subject: Re: Maxtor Optical Disk on Apollo
Organization: University of technology, Vienna, Austria.
Distribution: fj
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 10:06:51 GMT
Return-Path: <apollo-list-errors@srvr1.engin.umich.edu>

|> >  I have now been trying for quite some time to connect a Maxtor
|> >Tahiti 1 magneto-optical disk drive to our Apollos.
|>
|> It's due to the response from the Tahiti to the Apollo's SCSI
|> Inquiry command, and the non-recognition of the device by the
|> boot firmware. If the boot firmware doesn't like the device,
|> then invol will not find it.

  Aha! Anybody has any idea _what_ the boot prom doesn't like? Do
different versions of the boot firmware behave differently?

	mjl


-- 
         "CDTV is selling like warm pie" -- J.P. at Kanton in FFM.
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.apollo
From: jesse@mars.slu.edu
Subject: BSD for Apollo Domain Series
Organization: Parks College St. Louis Univ.
Distribution: fj
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 17:26:53 GMT
Return-Path: <apollo-list-errors@srvr1.engin.umich.edu>

Hello
	Question:
	
	Is there away to take a domain series workstation say a 4500 and 
	run straight BSD on it.....Either by compiling it using the apollo
	compiler or are there binaries out there for this....

	Please respond with a mail message to:
				
						tutterrowjg@sluvca.slu.edu
						reavesga@pollux.slu.edu
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.apollo
From: enterpoop.mit.edu!ira.uka.de!Germany.EU.net!urmel.informatik.rwth-aachen.de!acds.physik.rwth-aachen.de!kuku@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU  (Christoph Kukulies)
Subject: Logging in after install
Organization: I.Physikalisches Institut RWTH-Aachen
Distribution: fj
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 08:06:08 GMT
Return-Path: <apollo-list-errors@srvr1.engin.umich.edu>


After a messed up outcome of a PSK tape installation I re-installed
10.3 form the very beginning. I ran invol, booted the dist tape, installed the
4 tapes and now I am at the point where I need to do some administrative tasks.

First question:

How can I login as root or privileged user at this point? user -apollo- does
not give me su access.

Next Question:

I saved the previous sys and etc directory of my node, hoping to be able to
re-establish the registry from that. Where is the registry located and
how can I re-activate it?

--
--Chris
Christoph P. U. Kukulies
kuku@acds.physik.rwth-aachen.de
*** Error code 1
 
Stop.
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.apollo
From: agate!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!venice!gumby.dsd.trw.com!vssi.trw.com!trwvssi.vssi.trw.com!s_rickus@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU  (Stephen H. Rickus)
Subject: Re: Maxtor Optical Disk on Apollo
Organization: TRW Vehicle Safety Systems, Inc.
Distribution: fj
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 13:47:10 GMT
Return-Path: <apollo-list-errors@srvr1.engin.umich.edu>

In article <1993Jan21.135809.9748@email.tuwien.ac.at>, mjl@newton.auto.tuwien.ac.at (Martin J. Laubach) writes:
>   I have now been trying for quite some time to connect a Maxtor
> Tahiti 1 magneto-optical disk drive to our Apollos. So far, without
> success. All I could do is make scsi_info actually find the drive.
> But invol claims "no controller found", and mount says "device busy".
> It just seems impossible...

Next time you post, please include enough information that someone can
help you without having to derive your configuration from the symptoms
of the problem. Model numbers and OS revision levels at least.

If you are trying to use an Apollo DN series machine then yes, it is
impossible. Although there is a WD7000 disk controller board with
external SCSI port, this board will only drive certain types of tape
drives.

If, on the other hand, by "Apollo" you mean an HP/Apollo 400 series
machine, then you would need Domain/OS 10.4 and a boot prom rev. 2.1
or greater. Of course, I would also question why this was not posted to
comp.sys.hp instead of comp.sys.apollo.

>   Yesterday, I plugged the drive into our DEC -- and it worked on
> first try (well, almost -- but it is fairly easy). So much for HP's
> conception of an "open system"...

I think you're missing something here. The Apollo was never designed to
be an "open system". That fact is not likely to change just because they
were bought by HP.

Steve
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.apollo
From: utcsri!helios.physics.utoronto.ca!alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca!system@uunet.uu.net  (System Admin (Mike Peterson))
Subject: Re: Logging in after install
Organization: University of Toronto Chemistry Department
Distribution: fj
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 15:55:28 GMT
Return-Path: <apollo-list-errors@srvr1.engin.umich.edu>

In article <1jo9tgINNqqe@urmel.informatik.rwth-aachen.de> kuku@acds.physik.rwth-aachen.de writes:
>How can I login as root or privileged user at this point? user -apollo- does
>not give me su access.

But you have access to /install/tools where there is a version of rbak
called rbak_sr10 that is setuid root and will restore things like your
registry (and will restore setuid root programs as setuid root for
any user which is a MAJOR security hole - this program should either
be deleted or the file/directory permissions changed so only root can
get in there to prevent access after install has completed).

>I saved the previous sys and etc directory of my node, hoping to be able to
>re-establish the registry from that. Where is the registry located and
>how can I re-activate it?

It is /sys/registry and subdirectories; I assume this was the master
node (or only node) since otherwise your network registry should be
available once you get your networking set up properly. I hope you
had your registry in "maintenance" mode when you backed it up, using
'rgy_admin'. One thing I do is force the local registry on each system
to be updated every night so you can always login to a node whose
network adaptor has failed - the local registry times out the accounts
after 21 (?) days, so if you haven't logged in for a while, you won't be
able to do so when you really need to (I do a '/etc/edrgy -synch',
after expanding the local registry to hold enough accounts). This won't
help when you invol, but it also gives you a complete copy of the real
registry in the local registry.
-- 
core error - bus dumped    -*-    Mike Peterson, SysAdmin, U/Toronto Chemistry
 *******   As usual, I speak only for me, myself and I; nobody else   *******
E-mail: system@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca  Tel: (416)978-7094  Fax: (416)978-8775
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.apollo
From: agate!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!oakhill!digital!digital.sps.mot.com!chen@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU  (Jinfu Chen)
Subject: Re: How can one name a file '~' ?
Organization: Motorola, LICD, SPS, Mesa, AZ
Distribution: fj
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 18:55:13 GMT
Return-Path: <apollo-list-errors@srvr1.engin.umich.edu>

In article <5daf606f.1bc5b@pisa.citi.umich.edu> Jim.Rees@umich.edu writes:
  Can we please keep the HPukers out of here?  Maybe we should rename this
  newsgroup to comp.sys.domain-os.

Perhaps comp.sys.aegis for folks still have SR9.7?
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.apollo
From: David Krowitz <krowitz@tremor.mit.edu>
Subject: Re:  Apollo networking alternatives
Organization: Electrotechnical Laboratory, Tsukuba Science City
Distribution: fj
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 14:44:51 GMT
Return-Path: <apollo-list-errors@srvr1.engin.umich.edu>

You might want to talk to Mary Ann Berg (mab@civilgate.ce.uiuc.edu), who
is the Working-Group chair for the InterWorks OS SIG. She is giving
a talk at the upcoming IWorks conference, April 25-28, in Phoenix on
a similar setup (heterogeneous networks, ATR and twisted pair).

== Dave Krowitz
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.apollo
From: Austin L. Conaty <austin@meto.umd.edu>
Subject: Moving off the RING
Organization: Electrotechnical Laboratory, Tsukuba Science City
Distribution: fj
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 13:45:02 GMT
Return-Path: <apollo-list-errors@srvr1.engin.umich.edu>


Hello all,
I have a network of about 20 Apollos ranging from the
dn300 to the dn4500 with a few dn3000s and dn3500s in between.
I have all of the nodes heavily linked to our server node.
What I want to do now is take one of the dn3500s and put in an
ethernet board, remove the token ring board, and hook it
up to the campus ethernet as a stand alone unit.

The machine has 146 MB of disk space and 12MB of memory.  The
question I have is: How should I get this baby ready for the ethernet
and the world of standalone?  Should I wipe off the disk and
boot from tape and install that way?  Should I try and reconfigure
it while it is still on the token ring network?  Right now we are
running 10.3.5 version of Domain/OS, should I load 10.4?  Should
I load only BSD?

If you have made a similar transition in the (not too distant) past,
please send me mail, and I will post a summary if there is interest.

Thanks a million!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Austin L. Conaty                           austin@meto.umd.edu
Department of Meteorology                  austin@atmos.umd.edu
University of Maryland                     301-405-5357      
College Park, Md. 20742-2425               or: HEY YOU!!!!!  

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.apollo
From: nwnexus!lampi@uunet.uu.net  (Michael Lampi)
Subject: Re: HP Vue on DN3000? (or `DN3000 as a home machine')
Organization: Northwest Nexus Inc. (206) 455-3505
Distribution: fj
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 17:55:12 GMT
Return-Path: <apollo-list-errors@srvr1.engin.umich.edu>

nigelw@cs.man.ac.uk (Nigel Whitaker) writes:


>I've recently bought myself a home computer.
>A DN3000 -- 4megs RAM, 170 Disc, floppy, ethernet, TokenRing, 1280bw.
>(I bought it at an auction and at GBP 200 it seemed a much
>better buy than most of the 286 PCs that were in my
>price range).
[...stuff deleted...]
>What options do I have for tape media.  I don't think its got
>the later WD controller with SCSI interface, so am I limited
>to the apollo cartridge.  What exactly is the apollo
>cartridge drive?  Was it specially made for apollo?

The cartridge drive was the older QIC-36 drive, which is still
around in any recycled computer places. Made by Archive. The old
Sun 1/4" tape drive (full height version) has a SCSI to QIC-36
interface board in its lower half, so if you got one of those
drives off an old Sun 2 or Sun 3 and stripped of the lower
board, you'd be all set.

>Can any PC / SCSI interface cards be used, do I need a driver?

You need a driver for almost everything.

>Anyone want to swap a token ring board(s) for other bits such
>as memory or tape?

>Should I sell it and try to get a 386 PC?

486's are quite cheap these days :-)

>Any answers/advice welcomed.

You're welcome!
-- 
Michael Lampi         lampi@mdlcorp.com
MDL Corporation       15301 NE 90th Street, Redmond, WA 98052
                      (206) 861-6700    (206) 861-6767 FAX
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.apollo
From: Austin L. Conaty <austin@meto.umd.edu>
Subject: DPCI  special file needed.
Organization: Electrotechnical Laboratory, Tsukuba Science City
Distribution: fj
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 20:21:26 GMT
Return-Path: <apollo-list-errors@srvr1.engin.umich.edu>

Hello,
I recently upgraded a pc that was running dpci on our
token ring here.  I upgraded from DOS 3.30 to DOS 5.0,
and now I get 2 different errors when I try and connect.
One error is simply 'unknown dos error', the other is
'incorrect version of dos'.  The last time I saw this error
it was due to a file that was called  redir300.exe and redir400.exe
not being what it should have.  I suspect that I should be looking
for a file called redir500.exe  which I do not have.  It seems
that redir500.exe is the special file that dpci needs to see in
order to work.  

So does anyone have that file, or know if I am on the right
track????

Thanks for your help

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Austin L. Conaty                           austin@meto.umd.edu
Department of Meteorology                  austin@atmos.umd.edu
University of Maryland                     301-405-5357      
College Park, Md. 20742-2425               or: HEY YOU!!!!!  

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.apollo
From: nih-csl!helix.nih.gov!rvenable@uunet.uu.net  (Richard M. Venable)
Subject: DPCC, DPCE, and DPCI support
Organization: National Institutes of Health
Distribution: fj
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 00:13:17 GMT
Return-Path: <apollo-list-errors@srvr1.engin.umich.edu>

Since the PC connectivity and AT-coprocessor have been mentioned
here several times recently, I thought I'd share some commercial
availability information.  A company called MicroMechanics in
Cambridge, MA, has acquired the rights to manufacture, distribute,
and support the PC coprocessor (DPPC), the PC emulator (DPCE),
and the PC integration (DPCI) products for Domain/OS.  The founders
were involved in the initial DPCC development.  For further
information, contact:

MicroMechanics
84 Sherman Street
Cambridge, MA  02140
Tel. (617) 868-1899
FAX  (617) 876-5950
Net  umech!ljohnson@uunet.uu.net


Disclaimer: I am in no way connected with the above vendor.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
 Rick Venable                  |    "Eschew
 FDA/CBER Biophysics Lab       |   Obfuscation"  
 rvenable@helix.nih.gov        |         -- the Phantom Nerd   
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.apollo
From: alta-oh!zeus.alta-oh.com!chris@uunet.uu.net  (Chris Murphy)
Subject: Re: Screendump on apollo
Organization: ALTA Analytics
Distribution: fj
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 14:44:04 GMT
Return-Path: <apollo-list-errors@srvr1.engin.umich.edu>

In article <1jjn96INN1kr@serv-200.dfki.uni-kl.de>, klauck@dfki.uni-kl.de (Christoph Klauck) writes:
|> Hi everybody,
|> I want to make a screendump of a CAD-system running on an APOLLO 3500
|> and don't know how to do it. At the end I need a Postscript file. bitmap --> ps
|> is no problem.
|> maybe a dump of a window will fit.
|> Thanks in advance
|> regards
|> 	Christoph
|> 

You could use the  cpscr  command which dumps the screen into
a GMF file. Then use the GMF_$ calls to access this file.
Alternatively, you could use the GPR_$ library directly.

Use  gpr_$initialize(grp_$screen,....) to init gpr.
Then  gpr_$inq_bitmap_pointer will return a pointer to the actual
pixmap. There are LOTS of gpr_$ calls to choose from, but I hope
this points you in the right direction.

Cheers,
	Chris.
       
-- 
Chris Murphy    -   chris@alta-oh.com
(614) 792-2222      Columbus. OH.
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.apollo
From: agate!spool.mu.edu!yale.edu!ira.uka.de!math.fu-berlin.de!news.netmbx.de!Germany.EU.net!danetda!schlue@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU  (Holger Schlueter)
Subject: wbak
Organization: Danet GmbH, Darmstadt, Germany
Distribution: fj
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 08:16:57 GMT
Return-Path: <apollo-list-errors@srvr1.engin.umich.edu>


Does anyone know if an implementation of the utility "wbak" does exist
for non-apollo workstations (e.g. sun) or is it possible to get the
source code for implementing it on my own? Any information about the
internal data format would be of interest, too.

Thanks in advance

   Holger Schlueter

                                                               
   /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ `-------------' ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\
~~~                        \     D     /                                   ~~~
      Holger Schlueter      \    A    /      Fax: +49 6151 89 68 97
         DANET GmbH          \   N   /     Phone: +49 6151 87 69 - 401
     Pallaswiesenstr. 201     \  E  /      EMail: schlue@danet.de
       D-6100 Darmstadt        \ T /       Telex: 4197157 dang d
~~~\                            \ /                                       /~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ V ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Newsgroups: fj.mail-lists.apollo