HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: alizard@tweekco.uucp (A.Lizard)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Masonic Practices??
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 93 19:51:27 PST
Organization: Tweek-Com Systems BBS, Moraga, CA (510) 631-0615

an4484@anon.penet.fi writes:

> Date Entered: 01-24-93 03:46
> 
> 
> My understanding (as much I guess as an outsider could have) of Masonic
> practices would be that they descend from the Knights Templar of around
> the time of the middle ages. Their purpose inbeing was to be the guardians
> of the Holy Grail.
> 
> Funny though....I was talking to a Witch whose grandfather was a Mason and
> it seems their beliefs are a little more elaborate than that. It seems that
> the whole idea behind Masonry is that Christ as a man was married or at
> least had sexual relations with Mary Magdelan which produced offspring.
> The Masons  then have one purpose....to defend these descendants of Christ
> down through the ages.
> 
> And the reason for the secrecy is that the whole premise of the Christian
> religion is the fact that Jesus was the Son of God....hence the need for
> secrecy. The Witch (who had evidently gleaned this info from her grandfathers
> diaries seemed to resent this, in that this means the Masons are basically
> defending a lie...namely, Christ as the celibate Son of God who never married
> as that might make certain Christian practices/beliefs untenable.
> 
> Any comments on this?
> 
> 
> ... ...
> ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

Sounds like the basic theme of Holy Blood, Holy Grail (Baigent, Leigh,
and Powell) ... which, lacking specialist knowledge of the time period
dealt with, I use as a working hypothesis until something better
comes along.
                                                 A.Lizard
(however, I suspect that the editor of Masonic Digest will be here
rather soon to comment on this himself, he has an autoscan setup
that looks for Mason and other related keywords... an advantage in
this case as he can give us an authoritative answer regardind
Masonic history.)

-------------------------------------------------------------------
A.Lizard Internet Addresses:
alizard%tweekco%boo@PacBell.COM        (preferred)
PacBell.COM!boo!tweekco!alizard (bang path for above)
alizard@gentoo.com (backup)
PGP2.1 public key available on request.
From: radzy%sradzy@jack.sns.com (T.O. Radzykewycz)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Chinese Religion [was: wearing pentagrams]
Date: 25 Jan 93 18:58:31 GMT
Organization: University of California, at Berkeley
Originator: radzy@icsib62

(I'm having trouble with my new machine.  Posted this a little
while ago, but it doesn't seem to have come across, so I'm re-posting
from the other machine.  Apologies.)

rjb@carson.u.washington.edu (LeGrand Cinq-Mars) writes:
> The text(s) attributed to Chunag Tzu are quite often called "the _Chuang
> Tzu_", in the same way that the text attributed to Lieh Tzu is called
> "the _Lieh Tzu_", and the text of Meng Tzu is called (etc).  Lao Tzu's
> text also is at times referred to by the name of its auth ("the _Lao Tzu_").
> 
> Sinologists do this often enough; it is a naming convention that also
> exists in Chinese.

This is also pretty common in English!  Come on, folks.  Haven't you
ever heard someone say something like, "I finished reading Starhawk
a little while ago," or "How much of Buckland did you read?"

It can also be a little more subtle, such as: "Blum has 25 runes,
but all the serious runologists use only 24."  Here, Blum himself
doesn't "have" or "possess" 25 runes -- but his book describes 25
runestones.

Bear Blessings!

			-- radzy

------------------------------------------------------------
	T. O. Radzykewycz		|  An it harm none,
	The Incredible Radical Cabbage	|  do as ye will.
					|
	radzy%sradzy@jack.sns.com       |
------------------------------------------------------------
Tribal Mother was old, and lay ill on a bed of moss and
fern.   Her hair was long and grey.   Her face was very
wrinkled.    Tamura'nun-pa thought:   How beautiful you
are, Mother, so old and wise.
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: radzy's address
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 25 Jan 93 18:52:26 GMT

radzy, I notcie you're posting froma new machine.  Can I still send you
mail at the old one?

luv,
Janis


Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: rich@cygnus.cygnus.com (K. Richard Pixley)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Shamanism
Date: 27 Jan 93 22:39:01 GMT
	<1993Jan20.174755.8847@e2big.mko.dec.com>
	<1993Jan20.221011.17349@rock.concert.net>
Reply-To: rich@cygnus.com
Organization: Cygnus Support - Palo Alto, CA +1 415 903 1400
In-reply-to: andyc@rock.concert.net's message of 20 Jan 93 22:10:11 GMT

In article <1993Jan20.221011.17349@rock.concert.net>
andyc@rock.concert.net (Richard A Ciordia -- Personal Account) writes:

   I am Andy, a beginner Shaan..  I have been studying and looking
   over all sorts of Magik, from Black-Wiccan-White etc..  And I feel
   Shamansim to be the best pick of them all..

How do you know?  What is it that you think you like?
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: contradiction?
Date: 28 Jan 93 00:29:57 GMT
Organization: University of California, Irvine

In article <C1JCqn.7A6@news.iastate.edu> txdv1@isuvax.iastate.edu writes:
>>There is an irreconcilable logical contradiction between plain sense of
>>the saying of Jesus recorded in Matthew 12:30 = Luke 11:23 (He that is not
>>with me is against me) and Mark 9:40 (For he that is not against us is on 
>>our part). Any questions?
>Yes. How is this a contradiction? 
>Parafrase/translation
>1.who so ever is not with me is against me.
>2.who so ever is not against us is on our part
>on our part meens on our side or with us. 
>so
>2.who soever is not against us is with us
>		  ^^^^^^^^^^^    ^^^^^^^
>1.who soever is not with us is against us
>		  ^^^^^^^^^   ^^^^^^^^^^
>so both say the same thing. There are contradictions in the new testament
>us one. It takes the weight out of an argument if your 'exsample' is false.
>
>Elf-Kin


I think many people are calling this the ol' contrapositive thang, but
actually they are equivalent. 

"If you are not with me, you are against me."
"If you are not against me, you are with me."

They both take the form if "If P, then Q."  Consider "If it's raining,
I'll carry my umbrella."  This is certainly not equivalent to, "If I'm
carrying my umbrella, it's raining" though, because there can be other
reasons why I'm carrying my umbrella.  We can all accept that the
contrapositive of the first statement is okay, though, and equivalent:
"If I'm not carrying my umbrella, it's not raining." 

Let's examine the sentences more closely now.  Calling "you are with me"
= P and "you are against me" = Q, the sentences scan as:

1) If ~P then Q.
2) If ~Q then P. 

Taking the contrapositive of statement 1), we get:

3) If ~Q, then ~~P.

This is the same thing as 2), hence the two statements are logically
consistent as they are indeed the contrapositives of each other.

Blessings,
Janis
From: alizard@tweekco.uucp (A.Lizard)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: GOD
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 13:34:30 PST
Organization: Tweek-Com Systems BBS, Moraga, CA (510) 631-0615

boylan@sltg04.ljo.dec.com (Steve Boylan) writes:

> 
> In article <1k2rgcINNm2c@shelley.u.washington.edu>,
> mimir@hardy.u.washington.edu (Al Billings) writes:
> 
> > In article <728022574.0@iphase.fidonet.org>
> > Richard.Willis@iphase.fidonet.org (Richard Willis) writes:
> > >
> > >               There is a true god. Satan is real. Follow him and you
> > > will go
> > >to hell. Follow Jesus and inherite eternal life. Any questions?
> > 
> >  Yes. Were you born without a brain or did your religion remove it?
> 
> and in article <25iZXB3w165w@tweekco.uucp>, alizard@tweekco.uucp
> (A.Lizard) writes:
> 
> > Richard.Willis@iphase.fidonet.org (Richard Willis) writes:
> > 
> > > 
> > >                To Whom It May Concern,
> > > 
> > >                There is a true god. Satan is real. Follow him and you
> > > will go
> > > to hell. Follow Jesus and inherite eternal life. Any questions?
> > > 
> > > 
> > >  * Origin: U_PAGAN: <<<<<<<<<< RE-ELECT NOBODY! >>>>>>>>>> (1:112/29)
> > > 
> > 
> > Yes. One. Who gave a clueless jerk like you access to a fidonet
> > gateway?
> 
> Oh, come on, kids, relax!  Whatever happened to that much-vaunted
> religious tolerance?
> 
> Just because someone is stupid and obnoxious is no reason to treat
> him so rudely!
> 
> 				- - Steve
> 
> 
> --
> Don't miss the 49th New England Folk Festival,
> April 23-25, 1993 in Natick, Massachusetts!

I realised after posting this that given the original post origin
from Fidonet, that it is unlikely the poster CAN read this newsgroup.
Which is why I mailed his sysop and gateway. Religious tolerance
does not include the freedom to harass people for being of a different
religion just because we happen to exist. 
                                     A.Lizard
(of course, Pat Robinson's ACLJ exists for the purpose of protecting
Xtians who want to harass people who believe differently... remember
Circle?)

-------------------------------------------------------------------
A.Lizard Internet Addresses:
alizard%tweekco%boo@PacBell.COM        (preferred)
PacBell.COM!boo!tweekco!alizard (bang path for above)
alizard@gentoo.com (backup)
PGP2.1 public key available on request.
From: dhardin@bbn.com (Dawn Hardin)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Magic Shop
Date: 28 Jan 93 14:20:11 GMT
Organization: Bolt Beranek and Newman (BBN)
NNTP-Posting-Host: spcink.bbn.com

>In article <1070578.2B667A31@cmhgate.fidonet.org> A.j..Drew@f520.n226.z1.FIDONET.ORG (A.j. Drew) writes:
>>I am considering opening a Magic Shop to be called City Witch.  The idea
>>is to offer a Magic Convienance store for city dwelling Witchs.  I would
>>like sudjestions of items to carry.  Think of things friends have come
>>to you for, things you get from friends, ect...  Remember, there are A
>>LOT of sole practicioners who don't have friends or covens to turn to
>>for supplies.

Other people have mentioned herbs, oils, magazines and the like.  One
thing that I have had a hard time finding is artwork and a goddess for
my altar.  After I broke down and made my own, THEN I start to find
sources for goddesses.  Also, athames and swords are hard to find, since
only the very largest stores carry them.  

One of the best herb stores that I've been in also carried "hippie" 
type things, to encourage more walk-in traffic and non-wiccan business.
Personally, I liked it because it gave me more excuses to stop in and
I know that I dropped a lot more money there than I would have if it had
been hard-core wiccan supplies alone.  And the overlap between hippies
and wiccans was almost entirely friendly.

Dawn
-- 
"You have this adorable and misguided notion that death is something really
radical and cool but I still can't help being attracted to your fresh-faced
uncompromised tatoo-ed rebel stance and god damn, I'd like to help you
sing your tune."  "Folk Song..." by Bongwater
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: deane@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Subject: music zines
Reply-To: deane@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Organization: Brandeis University
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 01:51:17 GMT

BTW: in my last post about music, I made mention of a publication called
The Fifth Path. This is a rather bizarre, but well put together music zine
which is interested in various kinds of industrial, gothic, and alternative
music, including a lot of music with pagan, magickal, or satanic themes.
The zine is not pagan as such, but the editor seems to be sympathetic to
pagan ideas - with his own misanthropic twist, though. The first two issues
are sold out, but featured interviews with Foetus Inc., Death in June (Douglas
P.), Robert Anton Wilson, Zeena La Vey, Rozz Williams, plus lots of reviews
and articles, including one on Kodo (a kind of Japanese drum music). Issue
three may still be around: it featured an interview with Boyd Rice (of Non),
an interview with Tony Wakeford (of Sol Invictus), with Michael Moynihan
(of Blood Axis), and with Feya Aswynn, a priestess of Asatru (Odinism) who
has written a book (Leaves of Yggdrasil) and done some singing and rune
chanting for Current 93. Also featured: articles on Carl Orff and Yukio
Mishima. Issue four will feature the second half of the Tony Wakeford inter-
view, plus interviews with the Swans, Crash Worship, The Electric Hellfire
Club, Adam Parfrey, Thomas Lyttle, and articles on Hopi prophecies and 
Odinim
oops! and Odinism in Heavy Metal (p. 1: interview with Johnny Hedlund of
Unleashed), plus music reviews as per usual. Tower Records sometimes stocks
this zine, but I wouldn't count on finding a copy by accident. You might be
able to special order, and I think RRRecords carries it. If you are inter-
ested in subscribing (no, I have no connection with the zine!), $20 will
get you a four issue (2 year) subscription. The last issue was 64 pages
long, standard magazine format: this is not a low budget fanzine. Some might
not care for some of the advertisers, though, which include various groups
and publications interested in satanism, Charles Manson, mass murders, and
similar topics. Be that as it may, the zine is worth the money to those 
interested in the kinds of music this zine reviews, and the kinds of people
it interviews. Oh! before I forget, the address is:

The Fifth Path
P.O. Box 1632
Carmichael, CA 95609 - 1632
U.S.A.

According to the info in issue 3, subscriptions ($20) should be made in
U.S. funds, payable to Robert Ward.

Anyway, I thought I should make this info available, to anyone who wanted
to know where I was getting my information on pagan groups.

-David
From: lchrist@opie.bgsu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Shamanism
Date: 24 Jan 93 14:37:26 GMT
Organization: Bowling Green State University


       Andy,
            I am a beginning shaman myself, so I am not sure how much help I
can give but I can reccommend a book I have that might help you figure out
what mineral totems, and about ceremonies.  I would recommend,"In the Shadow
of the Shaman--Connecting with Self, Nature & Spirit" by Amber Wolfe.  It is
the book I have and it has totem recommendations for different ceremonies.  
Also...have you heard of the shaman/apprentice program with Owl Woman?  For
people who do not live in her proximity it can be done through mail...if you
are interested in finding out more about this..send to me private E-mail
to IN%"Lchrist@bgsuopie.bitnet"
                         
                  She Who Walks in the Rain
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: stacey@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu (Stacey B. Martin)
Subject: A request for help
Originator: news@essex.ecn.uoknor.edu
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 15:02:59 GMT
Organization: AUS

This morning I heard something on the news that has thoroughly sickened
me.

A woman who had just returned from Bosnia told of the rape camps that
have been set up. Women herded in, given numbers (and only referred to
by their own number), raped in front of their children, raped in front
of others, abandoned babies.

Since I feel so strongly that something needs to be done to stop this
desecration, I propose that we do some ritual - whoever wants to
participate and in whatever manner seems appropriate to each of us.
I thought perhaps we might agree on a day to do this, maybe even a
time of day, although that might be asking too much.

I thought of Janis's post on the MM and the Inquisition, and the obvious
correlation to 50 years ago in Europe.

If anyone is willing to participate, you can reply to me, but it probably
would be better to post here for agreement on a day.

Thanks to all-

Stacey
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: marty@world.std.com (Marty M HaleEvans)
Subject: Re: boston area alt.paganers????
Organization: Cicely Public Access UNIX, Cicely, AK
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 18:12:41 GMT


>>Oh yes, the singing group Mother Tongue is excellent. The latest tape
>>Fire Dance is awesome (even our two year old, keep saying "play Fire Dance")
>>when we ask what she likes to hear.

>Hey, this makes you the third Boston area alt.paganer with a two year
>old!  (Actually, mine is 1 1/2, but close enough.)  Now I'm really looking
>forward to a get together.  (Do I hear other readers saying "oh no, 
>anything but three two year olds.")

Hey, two to six is my favorite age. Especially when more than one of them
try to interact. As my hometown friends used to say, babies are the best
party toys. Besides, yours is particularly well-behaved and entertaining.
;->

Marty
From: law10@po.CWRU.Edu (Lorrie A. Wood)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Masonic Practices??
Date: 28 Jan 1993 14:45:47 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


	Hmmmm. What I heard was that the Aramaic word in question means
something like, "relative," which covers everything from cousins to siblings.
	Which means that they -may- have been his siblings. Or they may -not-
have been his siblings or that some were and some weren't.
	But I wouldn't think the Jesus's siblings would get any special
powers, etc out of this relationship, except maybe as brownie points. ("You
know, Jesus, remember that time I beat up them bullies for you?", etc.)
	Now, ther's definite mythological basis (non-Judeo-Christian, of course)
that if Jesus had any children, they would be . . . interesting or not.
(this was often left to the choice of the descendant)
	 *dons non-carcinogenic asbestos-like flameprrof suit*

BB, and Read You Later . . .

-- 
"All statements are true in some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in
some sense, true and false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense,
false and meaningless in some sense, and true and false and meaningless in
some sense." -- _Principia_Discordia_ -- the Book of the Church of Eris (Chaos)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ashton@netcom.com (ashton)
Subject: Re: Interesting Group
Reply-To: ashton@netcom.com
Organization: Satan, Satan, Satan. 
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 11:27:26 GMT

ksm@abb-sc.abb-sc.com (Ashley) writes:


>In article <21JAN199309300453@pavo.concordia.ca>, a_weitz@pavo.concordia.ca (WEITZMAN, ANDREW) writes...
>> 
>(....Andrew the Wandering Jew describes his religious group......)
>>This group is known as the Truth Missionaries of Positive Accord (as you can
>>see, snappy names isn't our strong suit).  Anyways, TMC+Aers believe
>>it a triple Godhead of God, Goddess, and Jesus.  Jesus' birth is considered
>>proof of the existence of a Goddess--for GENETIC reasons.  

>In the version I heard the Goddess 
>carried the seed of God to Mary who provided the ovum. Otherwise, Mary is a 
>surrogate mother to a completely divine child and the sacrafice of Jesus's 
>life is meaningless to humanity because he is in no way "man", just "God". 

Yowza! Really bad mimographs ... you all ever improve your print?
Here's a juicy bint from the stacks.

Truth Missionaries' Chapter of Positive Accord (TMC+A)
POB 42772, Evergreen Park, Il, 60642-0772
Tract #84, suppl. to #80
Why Goddess', not Mary's, sex drew God's sperm for son

(Paragraph 6)
Were it not that human salvation required a human savior, Goddess Eve
would have become pregnant Herself to bear Jesus. The sex, which 
Goddess Eve used to cause issuance of Yahweh's Holy sperm may or may 
not have been revealed. There may be some lost Biblical record or 
some yet-to-be-understood allegory. Whatever, it is now 
undetermined. It seems simplest that an oral-genital liaison 
occured, because the Divine Componets could have been combined and 
otherwise processed into a ray of Holy Energy spurted into Mary's 
womb. But She may have received Yahweh's Holy sperm in Her Vagina, 
or even in Her anus, or ..., [sic] and after prcessing the Divine 
Components there, threw a bolt of Holy Energy into Mary's womb. It 
doesn't matter where Goddess Eve received and processed the Divine 
Components in or on Herself for the generative factor of Jesus' 
conception, because any and every part of Goddess Eve is MOST sacred 
and MOST holy. In contrast to this, NO part of Mary was qualified to 
be used for sexual activity with Yahweh. Hence, ONLY the Goddess, 
not Mary, drew Holy sperm from God to begat God's Son, or could do so.

--
| ashton@netcom.com       | Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wagn'nagl fhtagn |
| 93, 23, BB, Hike, Hail Eris, Xeper, Slack, Otis, Blood and souls for Arioch! |
From: traite@fellini.harvard.edu (Shirley Traite)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: boston area alt.paganers????
Date: 28 Jan 93 16:03:52 GMT
Organization: Harvard University, Statistical & Data Analysis Center

In article <lmdf78INN2p8@news.bbn.com> dhardin@bbn.com (Dawn Hardin) writes:
>In article <68-JNEWS-2.1@wonky.UUCP> ailsa@wonky.UUCP (Ailsa N.T. Murphy) writes:
>
>But I think it would be great to have our kids growing up with a little
>bit of pagan companionship.  Or even some pagan "sunday school."  (I
>say this knowing that Shirley, at least, will probably hate that idea.)

Oh Dawn, Now You KNOW I have to respond to this! :)
I don't object to  the idea of a "pagan sunday school".  What I have
problems with is the practice so many "sunday schools" have of ramming
dogma down kids throats and discouraging them from asking questions.
I admit, I will probably take Rebecca to the Unitarians when she's
five.  I was pretty happy with my sunday school experience, I think it
encouraged me to explore other paths and ask questions. What they
left out was any sort of spirituality.  I think that a "pagan sunday
school" just might be able to fulfill that missing link (As long as
it was not presented as the only correct way of viewing the world.)


>
>Sort of off topic, but my day care provider has a Virgin Mary thingie
>on her wall.  Alice was trying to grab it and my daycare-er picked her
>up and said "See, this is the Goddess."  She had just asked me to explain
>my beliefs because she tries to make everyone feel comfortable during
>Christmas season.  It was great to know that she had understood that
>well, and was open-minded enough to see the connection between her
>religion and mine.
>
That's great!  Yes, open minded Christians DO exist.  Few and far
between unfortunately. 


>Dawn
>-- 

Blessings.
___
Shirley Traite (traite@sdac.harvard.edu) |I only speak for myself.
Statistical Programmer                   |
SDAC/Biostatistics Dept.                 |
Harvard Sch. of Public Health            |

<> IT IS A VIRTUE TO HAVE AN OPEN AND INQUISITIVE MIND. <>




Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: mist@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu (Paul Timmins)
Subject: Re: Boston area alt.paganers??
Organization: Us R Toys
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 19:56:44 GMT

   Hrm, maybe slightly more specific directions? Kinda vaguish.. coming
from boston direction. Sounds worth checking out on a boring sunday


Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: burkel@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (a liberal pumpernickel)
Subject: ==long sigh==
Summary: 500 POSTS!! 
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 03:10:09 GMT



I've said it before, I know, but I felt like wasting some bandwidth.

I got through ALL the a.p posts, and I JUST wanted you to know.

By the way, I also read a chapter on Medicine and Mental Illness at
the same time (I assure you, no implications are to be made by that
statement), so I think I'm being pretty efficient today.

Hold on though, I feel the need to talk more, so you will most likely
see more from me here soon. (Not to be confused with seeing more OF me,
I have some basic personal codes about that).

But anyway,
Blessed Be,

Laura, with a full heart and a clean a.p slate -yum yum!-


Newsgroups: alt.pagan