From: bh437292@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Basil Hamdan)
Subject: Re: Syrian occupation of Lebanon
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 16:17:26 GMT
Reply-To: bh437292@lance.colostate.edu
Organization: Engineering College, Colorado State University

In article <1992Oct15.133422.1@cubldr.colorado.edu>, fardoun_a@cubldr.colorado.edu writes:

|> I agree with Rached and I will tell you why?
|> 
|> 1- the above point: the syrians were invited to lebanon. first they were
|> invited by the people who call them now occupiers. when the phalangists were
|> under pressure they asked them to come. afterwaords they wanted them to leave.

I believe that the reason they came under is no longer important,
the facts on the ground are what is.


|> In poltics nothing work this way. Syria has an interest in Lebanon, this can
|> not be denied, however, it is up to us to limit their effect on our decision. 
|> I do agree that the president and Co. are very close to syria, however, it is
|> the president mistake; and this does not make the syrian presence illegatimate. 

What makes their presence illegitimate in my eyes in their 
interference in every facet of Lebanese policies, at all
levels.  We do not have an independent Central Bank, therefore
monetary policy, no independent army, therefore no sovereignty,
no independent President, therefore no leadership, and the
list goes on down the line.

|>  I do agree that, what the president is doing now, is not the best for Lebanon.
|> however tell who did better among the other presidents; he is not much
|> different than Jameyel, Aoun, Shamoun and all of the others. Also, this has to
|> do with the system not with the syrians. It is a mistake to blame the
|> president's depenence on syria, on syria. the problem is the system. 
|> Now, people who calls syria as another occupier, has been doing so since Aoun
|> times; so this september problem is not the crucial issue. Is syria gaining by
|> staying in lebanon? Sure it is gaining, otherwise they would have left. In
|> politics there is no brothers. Syrian soldiers died in lebanon not for the sake
|> of lebanon, even there were mutual interest at sometimes or most of the times,  
|> they died for syria.  But is syria is an occuping state? No it is not. The
|> lebanese goverment asked them to come and they came.  
|> another point which Rached mentioned: people who are calling syria now an
|> occuping state, what did they say about the british and the mariens?? 

Does that mean because the Gemayel and the Christian camp in
general made a mistake by allying itself to the West and
the Israeli invaders, the it is OK for Hrawi and the band
of profiteers that support him to ally themselves to Syria ?
Two wrongs do not a right make.

|> did the presence of the mariens, british and the french affect the lebanese
|> policy? the answer is big YES. and the same with syria its presence affects the
|> goverment policy.  It is our stupid system who always ignore the main issues.  
|> Syrian forces should leave the sooner the better the same applies to the
|> system.
|> If some lebanese will still feel treated unjustly, we'll have another civil war
|> and other countries will send their forces to lebanon. and we will have the
|> same problem. the ones who support them (forign forces) we' call them friendly
|> forces and the other party will call them occupying forces.
|> > 
|> > 
|> > I really can't follow your reasoning here.  You say that you "believe"
|> > that the Syrians are not occupying Lebanon and are only there to
|> > "prevent the disintegration" of Lebanon.
|> 
|> read the above
|> > 
|> > I would have liked it if you provided some foundations for you belief,
|> > I'd like to believe it myself, however the facts on the ground are
|> > completely contrary to that belief.
|> > The Syrians were supposed to withdraw in September from parts of Lebanon,
|> > yet they have not done so, actually Mr. Khaddam has publicly announced
|> > that they have no intention of doing so in the near future.
|> > Every major or minor government decision has to be cleared in Damascus
|> > and even when you check in to the "hassle-free", Lebanese airport
|> > you had to go through Syrian Mukhabarat lines.
|> > The Lebanese Army is now under total control of Syria.
|> > In the ME peace negociations Lebanon does not make a move before
|> > asking permission.
|> read above
|> > Syria is gaining much by occupying Lebanon, it is achieveing
|> > part of its goal of "Greater Syria" and using Lebanon as another
|> > pawn in its ME negociations with Israel.
|> > Lebanon is NOT a sovereign country, and no matter what euphemism
|> > you use, and under what circumstances the Syrian "intervention"
|> > or "occupation" began, the end result remains that we are now completely
|> > subjugated to Syria.  That may be a fact that you might think is 
|> > good.  But regardless, it is time for us to "come clean" and admit
|> > that we are NOT citizens of an independent country called Lebanon.
|> > 
|> read above
|> > Lebanon is OCCUPIED by both Syria and Israel, and the Lebanese
|> > government is a puppet government that is not working in the
|> > best interests of Lebanon, bur rather is an accomplice to
|> > the dissolution of Lebanon.
|> >
|> if that is the case, we then should mention both of them equally. and when the 
|> CLAO talks with
|> clinton they should mention both equally. otherwise they do not consider isreal
|> as an occuping state, and if so, they are traitors as lahd and Co..  
|> anyway, Thanks to elie for saying that they should have
|> done so.
 
Agreed.

|> > I hope you will find it in you to be honest with yourself,
|> > and I hope that ultimately we would all join in working
|> > to restore Lebanon's sovereignty and independance, notwithstanding 
|> > our religious affiliation.
|> what do you mean by religious affiliation?? it look like you do not know much
|> about the lebanese civil war.
|> > 
|> > These are my beliefs and I contend that mine are more founded in reality
|> > than yours are.
|>  what bothers me the most is the fact that we always say syria is the problem.
|> let's for at least one week concentrate on the isreali part of the problem, how
|> about Kissenger, how about the formula we have in lebanon??????? How about a
|> letter to the united nations denouncing the american support to isreal and the
|> isreali occupation. some have already sent letters about syria and the
|> elections , how about other problems??? we either be lebanese for all of
|> lebanon, or just for what the phalangist called before as their part of lebanon
|> from kfarshima to Al-madfoun.


The reason I am concentrating on Syria, is because I take
it for granted that Israel' s presence is illegitimate
and I believe everyone on this net agrees that Israel
is an occupier.  We are more divided with respect to
Syrian "presence" or "occupation", whatever term suits you,
and I thought that it was time for me to come out in the  open
with my opinion on Syrian OCCUPATION.  That is the term that I find
appropriate to use, I would hope to convince others to take
a similar position.


|> A. Fardoun

Basil