HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bbs-phaedrus@jwt.UUCP (larry wink)
Subject: Re: IQ Test Creation Question
Reply-To: bbs-phaedrus@jwt.UUCP
Organization: The Matrix
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 15:58:00 GMT


skh4161@mvs.draper.com (Kjeld Hvatum) writes:

>So a test is only a pure intelligence test if it measures something that
>cannot be influenced by environment (which includes long term study)?
>In other words, is your definition of intelligence only something that
>is 100% inherited?

Never claimed that intelligence cannot be influenced by environment.  But I do 
_not_ believe that intelligence can be influenced by long term study.

I believe environmental factors are extremely important during human physical 
growth and development and much less important once maturity has been reached.  
I also believe that the physical factors of the environment are much more 
important than the psychological factors.

Want your child to be as intelligent as possible? (Within the limits 
established by his/her genetic inheritance - probably an extremely large 
range.)  Then make sure he/she is well fed and kept healthy.  Absent physical 
abuse, being a rotten parent might make your child a sociopath but probably 
won't make him/her a stupid one.  Conversely, I find it hard to accept that 
the "Super Babies" programs do anything but produce spoiled children.

Once full maturity is reached, long term study may well improve on the scores 
achieved on tests, but will not, IMHO, result in increased intelligence.   

skh4161@mvs.draper.com (Kjeld Hvatum) also writes in another thread:

>To pretend there are clear lines between testing intelligence,
>aptitude, and achievement is silly, in my opinion.

Agreed.

 --Larry Wink
 Internet: fdmwink@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu or ljw@pro-magic.oau.org
 Bitnet: fdmwink@ucf1vm     Usenet: bbs-phaedrus@jwt.UUCP     GEnie: l.wink   
        "Common sense is instinct.  Enough of it is genius."

Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: sue@netcom.com (Sue Miller)
Subject: Re: grad students killing professors
Keywords: need info
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 00:46:02 GMT

In article <1992Nov18.164039.8394@cbnewse.cb.att.com> gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart) writes:
>In article <Bxwu6G.DKy@news.cso.uiuc.edu> mcwg9235@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Marsha Woodbury ) writes:
>>While lurking around mensa this morning, it occurred (sp?)
>>to me that folks in mensa could help me with my quest--
>>i have a story about a guy named Fabrikant who went crazy
>>and killed some people on a college campus.  I don't think
>>this is Urban Legend, but I need the name of the school,
>>the country (Canada?  US?) and year, etc.
>>We mensans are smart, right?  So we flip out under
>>pressure, right?  I hope wrong.  If you can't tell me
>
>Stop asking me this or I'll kill you.
>

This is actually a variation of our favorite method of dealing
with people at work when they behave in an obnoxious fashion.
"Obnoxious" can mean almost anything depending on our mood.

"Davis, don't make me have to kill you."


So far, noone has.
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 12:48:58 -0500 
From: David O Hunt <bluelobster+@CMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grad Students

On 19-Nov-92 in Grad Students                
user Don Wiggins@osiris.cso.u writes:
>Is it me, or does there seem to be an unhealthy level of interest on this
>board about grad students killing their professors??


I see no problem with it at all.  *insane laughter*  Why do you ask???
*more insane laughter, eyes rolling, drooling, etc*



David Hunt - Graduate Slave |     My mind is my own.      | Towards both a
Mechanical Engineering      | So are my ideas & opinions. | Palestinian and
Carnegie Mellon University  | <<<Use Golden Rule v2.0>>>  | Jewish homeland!
====T=H=E=R=E===I=S===N=O===G=O=D=========T=H=E=R=E===I=S===N=O===G=O=D=====
Email:  bluelobster+@cmu.edu    Working towards my "Piled Higher and Deeper"

"If the liberties of the American people are every destroyed, they will fall
by the hands of the Clergy." -- General Marquis De Lafayette, 1789

Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: eager@eagercon.com (Michael J. Eager)
Subject: An end to "Voting Analysis"
Reply-To: eager@eagercon.com
Organization: Eager Consulting
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 08:59:07 GMT

There has been nothing new said in this thread for an eon.  I'm sure
that Eric has "proved" his point.  Anything that anyone may have said
which appeared to contradict him is surely based on either misquoting
him (go back and read 6 weeks and 6Mb of deathless prose) or on not
understanding the sheer simplicity of his argument.  Eric has kept 
this thread going in its remarkable fashion with an amazing degree of
perseverance and I think we should all express our gratitude for it.

And how about them Cubs?

---
Michael J. Eager		Michael.Eager@eagercon.com
Eager Consulting		(415) 325-8077 
1960 Park Boulevard, Palo Alto, CA 94306-1141
From: mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: IG in Flevohof
Date: 17 Nov 92 19:08:24 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.mensa

In article <16Nov92112122@miracle.com>, jcooley@miracle.com (John Cooley)
wrote:

>   I think your impressions are correct.  A lot of Sci-Fi people
>   tend to also qualify to be Mensans I've found.  In addition,
>   many of the people from the Society for Creative Anachronism (SCA)
>   also tend to qualify.
> 
>   I guess it takes a little more than average brain power to put
>   such personal energy into "alternate" worlds (Sci-Fi & SCA), and
>   hence the tendency to draw Mensa calibur people.

I did *not* plagarize--really, I didn't.

+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Now that I have a reader that can do .sigs, I can't think of a witty |
|one to put here, so I won't.  All normal disclaimers apply.          |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: scott@bogus.net.address (Scott Tai)
Subject: t: A theory of flames
Reply-To: scott@bogus.net.address (Scott Tai)
Organization: /usr/scott
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 02:40:12 GMT


mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner) writes:
: After being on several nets for several years, I have come to the
: conclusion that the flame level on any given newsgroup, forum, echo, or
: whatever you wish to call it, is a constant once the forum matures.
: 
: It doesn't matter whether two people are going at it hammer and tong with
: everyone else not participating, or whether there are more people involved,
: each with a lower flame level than if there were only two people at it.

Yes - these petty flames have devoured me - I have not the strength 
to endure it.

--
Scott Andrew Tai
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: cjdcosta@eos.ncsu.edu (CHRISTOPHER J DCOSTA)
Subject: Re: t: Re: IQ Test Creation Question
Originator: cjdcosta@zepplin.ece.ncsu.edu
Reply-To: cjdcosta@eos.ncsu.edu (CHRISTOPHER J DCOSTA)
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 05:29:50 GMT


scott@bogus.net.address (Scott Tai)'s at it again--
>
> Intelligence has several facets, some of which are not measured by 
> intelligence tests. 


..but many of which are. That's the whole point.


> Achievement, not test score, is a better measure
> of ability.


Oh, sure. I bet you'd like universities to admit students based 
on their scores on super nintendo, for instance. They're achievers too,
don't you know. 


Yes, it's exagerration. Which is why many schools judge students on the
basis of both test scores and high school acads.  


And oh, BTW, didn't you promise earlier not to repeat your old posts? 
From: Dave.Aronson@p11.f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson)
Sender: Uucp@blkcat.UUCP
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: IG in Flevohof
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 17:10:44 -0500

jcooley@miracle.com (John Cooley) writes:

 JC>   many of the people from the Society for Creative Anachronism (SCA)
 JC>   also tend to qualify.

 JC>   I guess it takes a little more than average brain power to put
 JC>   such personal energy into "alternate" worlds (Sci-Fi & SCA), and
 JC>   hence the tendency to draw Mensa calibur people.

And when they're no longer Mensa calibur [sic], they are Excalibur, which makes
them eminently suited for the SCA.  And former lacrosse players cure
constipation, along with former employees of the Los Angeles international
airport.

More seriously, I have noticed quite a bit of overlap between the SCA and Mensa.
 One theory is that both groups are largely composed of people who are
dissatisfied with the so-called Real World.  Another is that they both attract
so many computer people - as evidenced by the fact that these are the only two
organizations to have newsgroups under rec.org.


Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart)
Subject: Re: grad students killing professors
Organization: AT&T
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 16:40:39 GMT
Keywords: need info

In article <Bxwu6G.DKy@news.cso.uiuc.edu> mcwg9235@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Marsha Woodbury ) writes:
>While lurking around mensa this morning, it occurred (sp?)
>to me that folks in mensa could help me with my quest--
>i have a story about a guy named Fabrikant who went crazy
>and killed some people on a college campus.  I don't think
>this is Urban Legend, but I need the name of the school,
>the country (Canada?  US?) and year, etc.
>We mensans are smart, right?  So we flip out under
>pressure, right?  I hope wrong.  If you can't tell me

Stop asking me this or I'll kill you.

GMS
From: nicolas@stam.nl (Nico Veenkamp)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Special Interest Groups
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 10:36:47 CET
Organization: Stam Tijdschriften bv, Rijswijk, The Netherlands

dobbs@ast.saic.com (Lynn Dobbs) writes:

> In article <9oHFuB4w165w@stam.nl> nicolas@stam.nl (Nico Veenkamp) writes:
> >matt@severian.chi.il.us (Matt Crawford) writes:
> >
> >> > And while we are at it. Why not start an 
> >> > Internet SIG (Special Internet Group :-) that you can join when you have
> >> > an @ address or are able to post on the 'net?
> >> 
> >> Excellent.  Call it @SIG.  Let me look for my old paperwork on
> >> starting SIGs ...
> >
> >And of course organize @-parties at gatherings :-)
> >
> >
> How about t-shirts with a large @ on the front.

Have @-address on our name-tags.Drink virtual beer and eat virtual 
munchies. What shall we put on the back of the T-shirt?
Have @address, will travel virtual.


      *================================================================*
      |  Nico Veenkamp	        | You write, we publish                |
      |  Stam Tijdschriften bv  | -------------------------------------|
      |  P.O. Box 235           | Internet : nicolas@stam.nl           |
      |  2280 AE  Rijswijk      | FidoNet  : 2:281/1.7                 |
      |  The Netherlands        | BIX      : nicolas                   |
      *================================================================*
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: cjdcosta@eos.ncsu.edu (CHRISTOPHER J DCOSTA)
Subject: Re: grad students killing professors
Originator: cjdcosta@zepplin.ece.ncsu.edu
Reply-To: cjdcosta@eos.ncsu.edu (CHRISTOPHER J DCOSTA)
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 00:38:56 GMT


Disclaimer: This was told to me by a friend. I have no means of knowing if
it's accurate or even true.

It seems a graduate student killed his advisor after trying in vain for
many years to complete his PhD dissertation to the latter's satisfaction.
Another rumor I heard was of a Korean student who shot his instructor 
after being awarded a failing grade, claiming that it was a 'matter of honor'.
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: eager@eagercon.com (Michael J. Eager)
Subject: Re: Voting Analysis
Reply-To: eager@eagercon.com
Organization: Eager Consulting
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 05:01:28 GMT

In article 25121@nntpd.lkg.dec.com, edp@math.zk3.dec.com (Eric Postpischil) writes:
>In article <1992Nov14.010841.27155@eagercon.com>, eager@eagercon.com
>(Michael J. Eager) writes:
>
>>Eric, you have postulated that voting does not send any kind of a message
>>and that not voting sends a message.
>
>I said that voting does not send any message the subject wants to send. 
>(I defined the subject and their goals in the first article of the
>"Voting Analysis" thread.)  I did not say that voting does not send
>_any_ kind of a message.

This is the postulate.  You have defined a subject, his goals, and who he
wishes to communicate with.  You did, in fact state, that voting does not send
this persons message.  In your misinformed foray into information theory,
you "proved" that non-voting sends more of a message than voting.

All of this is specious.

>>If you are trying to convince people not to vote, then all that were 
>>convinced have been.  If you were trying to convince people that by voting
>>that they were actually doing something horrible, against their best interest,
>>then you have convinced all you are likely to convince.
>
>I stated my thesis clearly; it is the last sentence of the article with
>which I initiated the "Voting Analysis" thread:
>
>	I merely wish to prove that there is at least one
>	situation in which it is an intelligent
>	choice, for some people, not to vote.

Some, being the subject you define.  One situation, being the one you define.

>
>>The election is over; the subject is dead.
>
>I was unaware that the election just past was the final one and that it
>would therefore be useless to do anything about future elections or
>other politics.

Is this your suggestion?  Think of the message it sends if you decide, here
and now, never to vote!  This is far more powerful a message than your decision
to not vote in the current election.  And I can prove it, using exactly the
"logic" you use.

---
Michael J. Eager		Michael.Eager@eagercon.com
Eager Consulting		(415) 325-8077 
1960 Park Boulevard, Palo Alto, CA 94306-1141

Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: ecsd@tfs.com (Eric C. S. Dynamic)
Subject: Great Beast Re: Tai's newly fake mail address
Organization: The Great Beast 666
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 15:27:06 GMT

ecsd@tfs.com (Eric C. S. Dynamic) writes:
>
>I wouldn't worry about it, it may be bad form but Tai is not malicious.
>I never got around to having my local hack go after him, and by now it
>doesn't mean anything. I guess I'll tease Tai and say that when he's
>able to afford his own mailid, or actually gets an official, granted id
>to write from, he will.
>
>Meanwhile, Tai's private mail address is: mensa@nyx.cs.du.edu

Famous last words, Tai. Whatever you're doing skipping around from machine
to machine, creating ids, they're getting blown away; that 'mensa@nyx' is
no longer good, so I sent a nice long letter which bounced, and a copy of
'erection in yogurt', which bounced too.

Send me your address, to P.O. Box 278, Berkeley CA 94701-0278 and I will
mail you the crap on diskette - say 3.5 or 5.25 for PC.

Meanwhile, you'll have to think about gummy fingers being able to GET you,
at a stable address (e.g. one created For you, and which it is alright for
you to keep). Even criminals get tired of picking up mail at General Delivery,
so Dillinger retired so he could walk in and fetch mail from his P.O. Box.
If you're tired of doing sysad-hacking half the time to write mail the other
half, why not just menschify yourself - you can be every bit as silly and
cruel sitting still, as moving around. C.J.D'Costa is (now) under orders from
me not to injure you, should you really turn out to be at NCSU - hell, he
might even buy you a hoagie and a coke.

Join the ranks of the stable, staunch and boring, like the rest of us -
all it costs is the IRS will know where to find you.
On second thought - maybe keep moving . . .

-ecsd

p.s. - send me mail by Monday, I will post the letter here openly, probably,
if I don't hear NO from you. The letter doesn't say anything about you that
I know for a fact. Whether it would embarrass you for me to publish it here,
I will have to give thought to - before I do that. Otherwise, I figure posting
it here is the only way you'll get it. I won't repost "erection in yogurt"
here, people should see my wretched stuff go down only once, to be fair.

Jeez. Will you HOLD STILL?
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 12:51:10 -0500 
From: David O Hunt <bluelobster+@CMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: grad students killing professors
	<1992Nov19.085918.16186@tfs.com>

On 19-Nov-92 in Re: grad students killing p..
user Eric C. S. Dynamic@tfs.c writes:
>By the time I left RPI, I'd roomed with a guy who was in exactly this bind;
>but it'd only been 4 years for him.

I expect that my total sojourn in grad school will be 4-5 years.

On 19-Nov-92 in Re: grad students killing p..
user Eric C. S. Dynamic@tfs.c writes:
>Figure also - my Psychology Ph.D. candidate friend described how advisors
>routinely listed themselves as first author in papers they had *nothing* to do
>with. This must be thoroughly widespread - so - how can so much corruption
>persist unchecked?

I have no problem with putting my advisor's name first - he is, after all,
the _principal investigator_, and is funding me.  If, however, he wanted
SOLE credit, then I'd have a serious beef.



David Hunt - Graduate Slave |     My mind is my own.      | Towards both a
Mechanical Engineering      | So are my ideas & opinions. | Palestinian and
Carnegie Mellon University  | <<<Use Golden Rule v2.0>>>  | Jewish homeland!
====T=H=E=R=E===I=S===N=O===G=O=D=========T=H=E=R=E===I=S===N=O===G=O=D=====
Email:  bluelobster+@cmu.edu    Working towards my "Piled Higher and Deeper"

"If the liberties of the American people are every destroyed, they will fall
by the hands of the Clergy." -- General Marquis De Lafayette, 1789
From: al037@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dave Polewka)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Weighted Suffrage
Date: 17 Nov 1992 05:38:33 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: al037@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dave Polewka)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc4.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner) says:

>> What about *you*, Mike?  Do you care whether the government
>> expands or contracts?
>
>Yes, I do care.  I would much rather have a smaller and leaner (but not
>meaner) government apparatus than we now have.
>However, if that means discarding the one-person, one-vote principle, it
>isn't worth it.  As soon as you start applying criteria for weighting
>people's votes, you open the door even wider to voting abuse.

Well, if we can get a reduction in government with the
one-man-one-vote, that'll be fine.  I wouldn't hold my
breath, though.
-- 
=======================
"Endeavor to persevere"
=======================
From: lana@magenta.corp.sgi.com (Lana Mountford)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Keeping Your Mensa Membership A Secret
Date: 17 Nov 92 18:54:34 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.

In article <16Nov92133624@miracle.com>, jcooley@miracle.com (John Cooley) writes:
|> 
|>   Anyone have any positive stories concerning telling non-members you're
|>   a member?  Also, what are some of the bad reactions you've recieved?
|> 

The usual reaction I get when I tell people is "But .. but ... you're
so ... so ... so NORMAL!," usually delivered with a look that says
they've just seen an alien from outer space.  I don't usually tell 
people about it -- only if it comes up in conversation.  And the
only time it came up in conversation around here was in July,
when we hosted the AG.  There were a lot of articles in the papers
about that, and a few people at work started discussing it:  "I 
wonder what goes on in their meetings?  How smart do you have to
be to get in?"  Stuff like that.  I let it go on for a while, and
finally volunteered the information.

The only negative reactions I've ever encountered have been on
various nets (CompuServe, etc.).  Most people who know me don't
think anything about it.
-- 

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
|    /)                      | Lana Mountford    
|   / /  __    ___    __     |    
|__(_/__(__)\__/  )__(__)\__ |  
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: sonic@bearpit.cray.com (Curtis Swanson)
Subject: Re: t: Re: t: Re: IQ Test Creation Question
Reply-To: sonic@bearpit.cray.com (Curtis Swanson)
Organization: Cray Research, Inc.
Date: 17 Nov 92 12:07:52 CST

scott@bogus.net.address (Scott Tai) types:

>From 'IQ and Intelligence:  What's Wrong with Testing' (Fallows, 1989):
>; [...]  Whatever intelligence may be and however it may be 
>; distributed, is it really the main factor in determining how far 
>; people can go in life?  Unless IQ is an important limit, the entire 
>; tracking system makes no sense.  Why start channeling people early 
>; if most of them really can handle most jobs?  Why not let them end 
>; up where they will, by trial or error, or encourage them to keep 
>; starting over?  Why hive people off to trade school if, given a 
>; later chance, they could become scientists, doctors, or inventors?

How does "hiving people off to trade school" keep them from becoming
scientists,
doctors or inventors?  I do realize the required study for doctors but going
to a trade school hardly locks you out from many professions.

>--
>Scott Andrew Tai

***  Curt Swanson  ***  sonic@romulus.cray.com  ***  IOTTMCO  *********
Bad opening line #106:
     "Say, you own the 'Buns of steel' video, don't you?"
***  Warning: This signature expires on 30-NOV-92!  *******************
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: wiegand@rtsg.mot.com (Robert Wiegand)
Subject: Re: IQ Test Creation Question
Reply-To: motcid!wiegand@uunet.uu.net
Organization: Motorola Inc., Cellular Infrastructure Group
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 19:19:09 GMT

bbs-phaedrus@jwt.UUCP (larry wink) writes:


>skh4161@mvs.draper.com (Kjeld Hvatum) writes:

>>So a test is only a pure intelligence test if it measures something that
>>cannot be influenced by environment (which includes long term study)?
>>In other words, is your definition of intelligence only something that
>>is 100% inherited?

>Never claimed that intelligence cannot be influenced by environment.  But I do 
>_not_ believe that intelligence can be influenced by long term study.

This may not be true. Experiments with animals have shown that intellectual
stimulation can have a effect on brain structure. Animals raised in a
more interesting enviroment develop more a complicated brain structure.

So using your mind may actually improve your mind.

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Wiegand - Motorola Inc.
motcid!wiegand@uunet.uu.net            uunet!motcid!wiegand
Disclamer: I didn't do it - I was somewhere else at the time.
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa