From: randy@megatek.com (Randy Davis)
Newsgroups: rec.motorcycles.harley
Subject: Re: XLH vs Big Twin
Date: 12 Nov 92 23:21:46 GMT
Reply-To: randy@megatek.com
Organization: Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California

In article <Yf0YP4m00WAEA0TEwW@andrew.cmu.edu> jm4b+@andrew.cmu.edu (John Makel) writes:
[The usual]

  Since I received this first as a letter directly from John, to which I had
already responded (taking it to email, as it were), I thought the newsgroup
discussion had been taken off-line.  Since I now find he posted the same letter
he already sent to me, please allow me a rebuttal posting in the form of the
letter I sent him:

| Randy  I have been around the computers for the last 
|10 years here at CMU, and rode motorcycles  since 
|1965

  We are very proud of you, as I said before...

| I am sure that you are probably more experienced
|in both areas than I am.

  Sarcasm at its best.  No, you have a couple years on me, I'm happy to
say.

| Its great to have a rocket rider
|moderate this group,

  Moderate?  Gee, I missed all the submissions you haven't sent me, I guess.

| you can sure add to this group,
|unfortunately not for its betterment but for these little
|flame wars.

  Too bad.  My heart just bleeds for you.  I read the group for information
about motorcycling.  When a particular clueless posting appears that makes
stupid generalities about other brands of bikes, I will sometimes respond.
Typically it seems to have worked in keeping the stupid brand comments to a
minimum.

| I have read the motos newsgoup as long as you both,
|but never would contribute because of the flame wars, I do not
|get my kicks irritating people.

  Seems you are doing pretty well.  I don't get my kicks irritating people,
unlike you, although you may feel otherwise.  I don't mind letting people know
when they are sounding like an idiot, though.

| I also am not abrasive to fellow motorcyclists, never have
|been never will be.

  Reality check time.  Jim is a fellow motorcyclist, as am I.  I would say
that you were definitely abrasive to Jim.  I think you fail to realize that
the implications in your original post are what were *also* abrasive to him
and possibly a number of others.

  Perhaps you feel that some of your readers are thin skinned, but the
generalities you present in your posting, and most especially your juvenile
response to Jim's posting, were quite abrasive.

|  Seems as though no matter what anyone
|would say there is still going to be a problem,

  Not really.  Actually, for as prolific a poster as *I* have been, I have
gained flames for less than a tenth of my postings.  Often times they were
mistakes in phrasing on my part, that I had to hastily correct, since the
readers interpretation was not what I intended.  (If that was the case for
you, you could have said so).  Other times they were with from someone rabid
about something (the bicycle-riding motorcyclist in rec.motos comes to mind,
or some of the Harley riders).

  I think you need to be aware of a couple of things.  One is that you need
to be careful about the generalities you make concerning riders, especially
when you base it on what they are riding.  I've seen some of the biggest
squids riding Harley's and some of the safest, most sedate riders riding
sport bikes.  Sure, this is against the normal preconception of the riders of
each bikes, but it is a fact.  Making implied generalities that "rocket-riders"
are all squids (people who ride stupidly with improper attire), WILL piss off
a lot of people.  If you truly don't want to be thought of as abrasive, you
have to realize this.

  For that matter, Just because you are posting to a newsgroup (not BBoard)
that has Harley in its name does not mean that it is all Harley owners/riders
reading it.  Many of the people simply want to know more about motorcycling
in general, including Harley's, some want to eventually own one, etc.  Many,
such as myself, do NOT feel that there is *anything* more special about being
a Harley rider than any other brand of motorcycle owner, although many of
them may still want to own one for other reasons.  Many of us could buy as
many Harley's as we want, but have no reason to, since a Harley won't do what
we want.  I read the newsgroup because it is a *motorcycles* newsgroup, and
I pick up a tidbit every now and then.

  You, perhaps unintentionally, implied an equivalence between "rocket-riders"
and bad riding in your first posting.  I saw it and wondered if that was your
intention, then decided, either way, that it wasn't worth responding to, partly
due to how hard it was to read your posting.  However, Jim interpreted it
as being intentional, I would guess, and flamed you for it.  I'm not saying I
agree with his posting 100%, but your rebuttal furthered those generalities
that *I* wondered about, and THEN made you sound like this was *your*
newsgroup more than Jim's.  Wrong.

| besides maybe you
|might learn something or contribute.

  I contribute when I have something to contribute, which I have done at
times.  Since I don't own a Harley, nor want to, I rarely have anything to
contribute other than perhaps helping people find Harley's for sale, locally.
"Learn something"???  Right...  I doubt if I will learn anything from someone
that has the attitude that Harley's are best because they are *Harley*, which
you are seeming to expound with your "Learn what it is to ride a Harley"
comments.  I've ridden them - I was not impressed.  Sure, if someone wants to
"be part of the Harley mystique", and be considered macho because they ride
one, then fine - it seems to work for the great unwashed masses, but that
stupid wannabe-ism holds no attraction for me.

  Deifying a motorcycle, as more than a few Harley owners do, defies common
sense and intelligence.  Harley is a fine motorcycle for cruising and touring,
and even being seen on - but the endless customizing of the bike into things
it will never be good at due to a different design intent has always seemed
futile and defies intelligence.

| What do you think
|of the new Dyna Wide Glide's,

  They have less acceleration than my car.  Otherwise they are a great touring
bike.  Dependability seems to be up, finally.  Personally, if I got a Harley,
it would probably be a Fat Boy, yet I have much better things to spend my
money on.

| do you like the frame mated to
|the wide glide front end? What do you think will be Harleys
|change in carburetion ,fuel injection or dual carbs, do you
|think that it will aid in performance? What do you think
|about primary belts?

  I'm more interested in the developments in drive belt technology that Harley
might be the first to get into since they have a vested interest in it, and
how it might eventually be able to handle the power output of more powerful
motorcycles.  I like the whole drive belt concept, and would like to see
the limitations overcome for my application.

|   Lastly I have  read rec.motorcycle for quite a long time now, I voted
|for this group the last 2 years. As for flame wars on the net that is
|KIDS play,

  Be careful - the pot calling the kettle black makes you look pretty
ridiculous.  Of course, that whole posting of yours already achieved that.

| I have always done my best talking in person. 

  I'm sure.

|Next time there is a poker or dice run I will invite you so you
|can see what a wonderful bunch of fellows us Harley Riders are!

  A number of Harley riders ARE wonderful people.  Two of my closer friends
ride Harleys - and are possible more die-hard riders than most people in 
this group, putting over 30,000 miles a year on their bikes.  They don't try
to modify it into the racing machine it will never be, but they use them
for long distance touring, and don't give a damn about the "Harley" mystique.
They also have my respect, something that the Harley rider that spouts the
normal shit that you were hinting at doesn't.

|    The article that I put together was to state the ignorance in driving
|at high rates of speed, that coupled with an improperly  dressed person spells
|disaster, I also stated that even though you and I may have our differences
|in rides, the concept of driving properly and wearing proper clothing is
|a must! 

  Perhaps a re-read of your article might be in order, on your part.  You
make a point to mention "rocket-riders", a term NORMALLY applied to those who
ride sport bikes (real sport bikes, not the XLH Harley puts out).  You coupled
this with those that ride improperly dressed.  However, you fail to mention
cruiser riders, etc.. (including Harleys) that are often just as guilty of
the same lack of intelligence in riding attire, and are also capable of
similar high rates of speed.  High acceleration ability does NOT mean that 
it is the only motorcycle capable of dangerous speeds - I've got an idiot
that rides a 1200 sportster around the corner from me that can prove that
EVERYONE can drive stupidly on residential streets.

  HOWEVER, I would agree, in spirit, with a lot of what you say - I would
agree that sport-bike riders are more *visibly* guilty of stupid attire than
others, simply because there are more sport-bike riders out most of the time.
I would venture a guess that Jim made this connection as an intentional
implication on your part about ALL sport riders (and *just* sport-riders),
and thus his reaction.

|    Finally I admit again that I do not have the best handling nor the 
|fastest motorcycle in the world, you do,

  Sarcasm again?  What was all this shit about not being abrasive?  Oh, for
SURE, you are just the NICEST person in the world, right?

  Wrong again.  I don't have the fastest and best handling.  I *do* have
the most powerful stock motorcycle, with more horsepower AND torque than *any*
unmodified Harley (and most of the modified one's also), despite idiots who
claim that Harley's are the "torque kings".  It IS also the fastest/best
handling I can buy and maintain easily.

  I have a friend with a 500 Gamma (two stroke, if you are unfamiliar with
them) that is just about as fast and handles twice as well.  Most GSXR's and
FZR's handle better, and are almost as fast.  I bought what is the best mix
for *me*, just as you hopefully bought what is the best mix of attributes for
*you*.  I don't try to tell you that you made the wrong choice, unless you
try to tell me that mine is inferior to your bike in some way, such as
something stupid like "mystique" - "riding a Harley - if you have to ask, I
couldn't explain it", etc...

  For that matter, I didn't feel I was so special and so different that I
had to have a separate newsgroup, unlike the childish Harley riders.

| I simply own a Harley and
|not a zx, you see we both have our niches in the world.

  Amen to that.

| Glad to have you aboard to Randy, enjoy the Harley BBoard...

  Having trouble with the definition of BBoard?  You may have been around
computers for a number of years, but one wonders...

|PS: hows my spellin?

  Not as bad as your punctuation and grammar.  Your letter was much better
written than your posting.  A couple of the sentences in your posting required
a re-read (more than one re-read, in one instance) just to figure out where
the missing punctuation should be.  Your choice, but it leaves a definite
impression with your readers.

Randy

Randy Davis                            Email: randy@megatek.com
ZX-11 #00072 Pilot                            megatek!randy@uunet.uu.net
DoD #0013                                     ucsd!megatek!randy