HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hpb@avila (Henrique Pedro Brandao)
Subject: Re: Facts #0
Organization: Instituto de Engenharia de Sistemas e Computadores
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 04:25:00 GMT

rahardj@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Budi Rahardjo) writes:
: I have posted several articles that I have obtained from

   I've been folowing your four posts witch you call facts, already 
gessing the content in them.

: The Indonesian Embassy (Ottawa, Canada). There's another
: article (East Timor: Building for the Future), but it's
: a bit thick. I'll scan / re-type it (no promisses).
: I also lost an article on what happened on November 12, 91.
: (Somebody faxed it to the International Centre at the University).
: If I can find it (or if somebody has a copy of it), I'll scan/retype
: the article and post it here.

   The FACT is, those are NOT facts by the simple reason, they're a result
from an Indonesian Government manipulation, as an excuse for the  
incidents that happened on the 12th November 1991 and also for what
happened when Portugal initiated the East Timor decolonization process.

   When there are two parties involved that fight in opposite ways, we
cannot clear up questions of a third party, using "facts" from only one
of those parties or from their allies. We have to resort to facts disclosed
by some party which is not, direct or indirectly involved.

   Therefore, the "facts" that show up on your posts, are nothing more 
than internal propaganda, to show to the people of Indonesia the angelic
rulers they have (I don't always believe on what my Government says).

   Worst thing is, you believe in what your Government tells without 
knowing that (contrary to what is told to you) is showed by :
INDEPENDENT reports, video shootage and UN resolutions (check the "LAWYER's
view of Timor history" post).

   In the middle of all of this, are the Timorese people which are the
most affected as well as the Indonesians, which are not blame for the 
Government they have.

: 
: I hope they can answer some questions.

   Unfortunately they didn't...

: 
: -- budi
: -- 
: Budi Rahardjo <Budi_Rahardjo@UManitoba.Ca>
: Unix Support - Computer Services - University of Manitoba


Pedro

--

###############################################################################
#  Henrique Pedro Perez Brandao  || E-mail : hpb@inesc.pt                     #
#         INESC -- CSC           ||                                           #
# Centro Sistemas Computacionais || Eunet  : mcsun!inesc!hpb                  #
#      Tel. 351-1-3100033        ||          mcsun!inesc!hpb@uunet.UU.NET     #
#      Lisboa -- PORTUGAL        ||                                           #
#          Europe :-)            || PSI/VMS: PSI%(+0268)004010314::clustr:hpb #
###############################################################################
#                                                                             #
# We don't stop riding because we get old, we get old because we stop riding. #
#                                                                             #
###############################################################################

Newsgroups: alt.culture.indonesia
From: rgc@eagle.inesc.pt (Rui Gustavo Crespo)
Subject: Re: Re: to all Portueguese
Organization: INESC
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 10:52:49 GMT

In article <1992Nov9.183110.44567@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>, andri@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes:
|> Ingat nggak Jalan Patric Lumumba di Jakarta.

I am portuguese, but do not speak any indonesian language. Could someone kindly
translate the message to english?
Then I would be able to read the message...

All the best...

---Crespo
==============================================================================
|| .-. .-  .- || Rui Gustavo Crespo                                         ||
|| |_| |_  |  || INESC, Software Engineering Group                          ||
|| | \ |_| |_ || R. Alves Redol 9, Apart 10105, 1017 Lisboa Codex, Portugal ||
|| ~~~~~~~~~~ || Phone: +351 1 3100 204      E-mail: rgc@eniac.inesc.pt     ||
==============================================================================
Newsgroups: alt.culture.indonesia
From: sepstei1@cc.swarthmore.edu (stephen epstein)
Subject: what do you do when?...
Organization: swarthmore college
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 19:18:07 GMT

Saya ada persoalan untuk orang yg membaca newsgroup ini, baik orang
Indonesia maupun orang dari negara-negara yg lain seperti saya. Sekarang
saya akanmenggunakan bahasa Ingerris supaya lebih banyak orang bisa
mengerti (tapi saya senang sekali ada kesempatan untuk praktek menulis
bahasa Indonesia...)

This summer I was traveling in Sumatra and while there I met a student on a
bus. We struck up a brief conversation and later had tea together.  Upon
parting, he asked for my address, as many, many people did, and I willingly
gave it to him, as always.  I've now received two letters from him in which
he has been asking me for money. The first one I responded to cordially but
was non-committal, since I wasn't even sure from his letter which of the
many people I had met he was.  I feel a real dilemma at this point: on one
hand I want to help out and have a real sympathy for his plight, even
though I barely got to know him. Given the huge difference in purchasing
power of American and Indonesian currency, it would not be a real problem
for me to send, say, $10, and I know it would be of much more value over in
Tanah Karo.  At the same time, however, I really don't want to foster a
sense of dependence and it makes me question in retrospect the sincerity of
his friendliness: did he really want to meet me, or was he just eager to
meet a foreigner who might send him money later?  Do any people have advice
or thoughts on how I can handle this situation in the most reasonable yet
compassionate fashion?

Thanks,
Stephen
Newsgroups: alt.culture.indonesia
From: prastowo@qucis.queensu.ca (Bambang Nurcahyo Prastowo)
Subject: Re: Bahasa Jawa
Organization: Computing & Information Science, Queen's University at Kingston
Distribution: alt
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 20:27:24 GMT

In article <1992Nov11.162142.6984@random.ccs.northeastern.edu> okidz@ccs.northeastern.edu (Oki D Zakaria) writes:
>>A: Wau dalu. Mangka aku ya wis nglilir, rumangsaku pakne.. nggokku baskom
>>   piring piring ki yo ora digawa. Kumbahan barang neng nggon ember ki yo ora
>>   digawa. Kok lucu, aku ngono, kok sing digawa kok mung piring tok.
>Last night. Actually, I had been quite awake, I thought it was Daddy who made 
>the noises. (wah, aku ora ngerti 'nggokku baskom') They didn't took the dishes
>which had been supposed to be washed. It's a little bit funny, they took 
>only the dishes.
Hi Oki, you did an excellent job! Koreksi sedikit:
kumbahan barang neng nggon ember = laundry in the bucket
nggokku baskom piring-piring... = the big bowl where I put the dishes
>
>>B: Pitik sing kemanggang kemanggang wolu, dadi sing pitik dek emben niku gedhe
>>   gedhe niku papat, sing gedhe, sing cilik cilik niku lima. Empun tunggale
>>   sing dibeleh siji dek emben. Arep tak beleh bapakne Muni keciliken ngaten.
(They took) eight ready to BBQ chickens out of the 9 we got last time: four big
and 5 small ones. We had managed to slaughter one of them. I should have
slaughtered them all but daddy thought they were too small.
>
>>C: Mboten pirsa jam pinten kinten kinten?
>Do you know at what time they broke in?
>
>>A: Antawispun jam setunggal. Aku ki krungu. Gugah gugah bapakne to. 
>It was about one o'clock in the night [continue]..
 when I woke daddy up after hearing someone broke in.
 
>>
>
>
>>wahyo sindhu abk
>
>Sorry berat, terjemahannya cuma sebisanya. 
>Oki
>okidz@dworkin.ccs.northeastern.edu
Wah.. pancen angel tenan. "Bapakne Muni keciliken" ya beda banget karo
"Bapakne muni keciliken". Koyone disengaja karo sing nulis.
Its really difficult. "Bapakne Muni keciliken" means very differently from
"Bapakne muni keciliken" which makes more sense than the former in the
context. It seems that the original writer complicated his/her passage
on purpose.

Now this is what I call (part of) indonesian culture.

Wassalam,
Bambang Prastowo
Newsgroups: alt.culture.indonesia
From: ramon@blade.stack.urc.tue.nl (Ramon Kolb)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.indonesia
Subject: Re: e-mail number ITS
Date: 6 Nov 92 09:02:18 GMT
Organization: MCGV Stack, Eindhoven University of Technology, the Netherlands.
Cc: alt.services.internet, alt.culture.indonesia
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

Thanks for your mail!
Yes, I'm already subscribed to soc.culture.indonesia, and a collegue (Peter
de Maagt) also mailed a request...
I received some answers and had a phone talk to the Network Manager in
Jakarta, who said that ITS Surabaya was scheduled to be connected to their
network in Januari, 1993. In the mean time we're trying to arrange a UUCP
phone connection from Surabaya to Indonesia, but as the phone line on my
talk from here (The Netherlands) to mr Ibrahim in Jakarta wasn't very good,
we still have to see what will be in that case.... Anyway, I'll keep you
informed if we make any progress....

          Best regards, Ramon
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ramon Kolb    Internet: ramon@stack.urc.tue.nl
PA3EUG        AMPRNET : sysop@pa3eug.ampr.org; pa3eug@pi8hrl.ampr.org
              BBS     : PA3EUG @ PI8HRL.NLD.EU.Earth   
This mail was posted from The University of Technology, Eindhoven, NL    

Newsgroups: alt.culture.indonesia
From: joao+@cs.cmu.edu (Joao Costeira)
Subject: Re: Facts #1
Keywords: timor facts
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 22:04:06 GMT

In article <Bx9360.3CL@ccu.umanitoba.ca> rahardj@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Budi Rahardjo) writes:
>
>FACTS ON THE QUESTION OF EAST TIMOR
>
>The actions taken in connection with then November 12, 1992 incident in Dili
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>The tragic outcome of the demonstration that occured in Dili, East Timore,
>on the 12 November 1991 was deeply regrettable, as was immediately and
>repeatedly expressed by the Indonesian Government at the highest levels. itwas
>a tragic incident and clearly not an act ordered by or reflecting the policy 
> [staff deleted]
>(East Timor: Building for the Future, 
>published by the Department of Foreign Affairs,
>Republic of Indonesia, July 1992).

>
>The National Commission of Inquiry
>----------------------------------
>	The 12 November 1991 demonstration in Dili showed elements of premediatated
>provocation by a group of anti integrationist/Fretilin S.D.P. and was not an
>orderly and peaceful procession dedicated to commemorate the death of Sebastian
>Gomez. As the tense atmosphere reached boiling point, started by
>the stabbing of an Armed Forces officer and the wounding of a private, and
>aggravated by the provocative belligerence and aggresive attitude assumed by
>the crowd which was perceived by the security personnel as posing a threat to
>their arms and their safety, a spontaneous reaction took place among the 
>security personnel to defend themselves, without command, resulting in 
>excessive shooting at the demonstrators, causing death and wounded. 
>The Commission feels that there are sufficiently strong grounds to conclude 
>that the death casualties totalled about 40 while the wounded exceeded 91.
>
>(Final Report of the National Commision of Inquiry, Jakarta January 1992).
>-- 
>Budi Rahardjo <Budi_Rahardjo@UManitoba.Ca>
>Unix Support - Computer Services - University of Manitoba

Nice sources! You know that guy (forgot the name, he is in Canda now!) that
said Auschwitz was built after the war, claming it's basically propaganda?
If your criteria for independent informations is this....
There is a sayng: The worst blind is the one who doesn't want to see!
 By 
 
 Joao



--
From: andri@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: alt.culture.indonesia
Subject: Re:to all Portueguese
Date: 9 Nov 92 18:31:10 CST
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

Ingat nggak Jalan Patric Lumumba di Jakarta.
From: sepstei1@cc.swarthmore.edu (stephen epstein)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.indonesia
Subject: Re: Portugese : same ol' crap....
Date: 9 Nov 92 19:12:53 GMT
Distribution: alt.culture.indonesia
Organization: swarthmore college

In article <1992Nov6.212559.9432@ems.psu.edu>, nor@hekla.pnge.psu.edu
(Nor-Azlan Nordin) writes:
> 

> At least, as a Malaysian I care about my country and damn proud of it. 
> And, of course I love Indonesia (the same people more or less) too 
> especially when dealing with some arrogant Europeans (whose ancestors 
> had destroyed most of the peaceful countries in the region for the
> last 300 years).  The unmitigated truth about the Europeans (the Dutch, 
> Portuguese, British, French and the newcomer, the Australians) is that
> they are all the same disgusting species!!!!
> 
> Leave us alone, will you????
> 
I read this newsgroup because I love Indonesia too, and even though my
ancestors might have come from Eastern Europe, I think we're all pretty
much the same people too-- human beings.  It's really sad to me to see the
discussion about East Timor degenerate into this name-calling.  I'm not
defending one side or the other, but the lack of civility in the debate
really depresses me. Do you really think Europeans are "all the same
disgusting species"?  

Diharap Nor-Azlan Nordin mengerti bahwa dia menistai bukan saja orang putih
seperti saya tetapi juga semua manusia. Tolonglah, saudara, pikir sekali
lagi.

Stephen
Newsgroups: alt.culture.indonesia
From: okidz@ccs.northeastern.edu (Oki D Zakaria)
Subject: Re: Followup * Reply (East Timor)
Organization: Northeastern University, CCS Dept.
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 05:29:12 GMT

In article <1992Nov2.102546.7106@inesc.pt> rgc@eagle.inesc.pt (Rui Gustavo Crespo) writes:
>In article <1992Nov2.072530.5376@random.ccs.northeastern.edu>, okidz@ccs.northeastern.edu (Oki D Zakaria) writes:
>
>Our interest is simply to let the timorease people to have a say: it may
>be independence, staying with Indonesia (honestly, I doubt it after
>indonesian troups have been done in the last 17 years), whatever they want!
>
People can have a say without creating a new country...


>Now, what do you say about the other two hundred thousand killed by the
>indonesian army? Of course you do not say anything, because no western
>journalists where there. 

Well, I wouldn't say anything, because I don't have the facts; western nor
Indonesian govt. versions. 

>Why don't Indonesia let Human Rights organizations to
>move freely in East Timor? That makes you think about it, doesn't it?

Yes, it makes me think. But I believe that it's just because the Indonesian
government can handle the situation.
>
>
>All the best...
>
>---Crespo


Oki
okidz@dworkin.ccs.northeastern.edu



Newsgroups: alt.culture.indonesia
From: vinch@IASTATE.EDU (The Rippingtons)
Subject: soccer 
Keywords: indonesian's soccer
Reply-To: vinch@IASTATE.EDU (The Rippingtons)
Organization: Iowa State University
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 20:39:07 GMT

Hi, I would love to hear the latestnews about our soccer team...
For example, does our team play in World Cup qualifying round? If it does,
how good or how far are they right now ?
Or, which team is leading the Galatama ?
More..
  Who's the champion or "Piala Kemerdekaan 1992?"
  About the foreign player?
  Who's the chief of PSSI?
 more and more

If you guys know it, it will be appreciated to post 'em here...
It will make our newsgroup become the newsgroup of Indonesia, instead
the newsgroup of Timor Timur   :)

Look forward to hearing from you all guys..


**************************************************************************
#     Department of Industrial Engineering and Manufacturing System      #
#     Iowa State University                                              #
#     Ames, Iowa 50010                                                   #
#------------------------------------------------------------------------#
#                                     e-mail vinch@iastate.edu           #
**************************************************************************
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: shashi@aix3090b.uky.edu (Shashi Sathaye)
Subject: Re: Problems faced by Indian immigrants not common to Chinese or 
    Japanese
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences
X-Path: shashi
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 13:45:33 GMT

amiller@almaden.ibm.com (Alex Miller) writes:


>Back to my original question:

>      Select three unique challenges faced by immigrants
>      from India which were not common to their counterparts
>      from either China or Japan.  How do you account for
>      the differences?

>Alex Miller
>amiller@almaden.ibm.com
I do not know if small dificulties each immigrant faces should be 
characterized as a challenge or not. But here are some points I want to
mention which (in my opinion) most of the profesionals would have faced.

I do not know how these compare to the immigrants from China or Japan.
Few friends I have from these community have never discussed these topics
with me.

a. Lack of confidence generated by 'accent'. I know many examples of 
scholars who had excellent knowledge of the subject but were unable to 
express it effectively. - at least at the beginning. In a year or so
those who were truly knowledgable would overcome this handicap.
 This of course is not uncommon to chinese or Japanese immigrants. My
impression was however that chinese help each other while Indians tend to
be rather aloof.
b. As a professional in India, you are usually at the upper middle or
middle class income level. It is rather hard and challenging in the 
beginning for those who have a family and come in as a doctoral or
post-doc student. The most scary thought is of getting sick and requiring
emergency medical services. I am here for almost 23 years now, but I still
remember my first few months of finding out how costly everything is. I 
used to convert each price to rupees in my mind. All the new comers are not
a whole lot familiar of the 'credit-card' culture and would rather save
money and buy the necessities as opposed to 'charge' them. It takes about
a couple of years to 'Americanize'. My friends still tease me about my
'coin-bag' which I used for saving enough money for a dish-washer and
the expression on the guy's face when I emptied it to pay all the $150
for it.  While back home it would have gone un-noticed - I think.
--
--With best regards from Shashi
Login name: shashi | System Programmer By Profession | In real life:
                   | but heart(&SWEET-HEART) in Math.| Shashi Sathaye
shashi@ms.uky.edu	sysshash@ukcc.uky.edu  shashi@aix3090.uky.edu
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: bhattach@molly.jpl.nasa.gov (Bidushi Bhattacharya)
Subject: acceptance in this country
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA
Distribution: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 18:06:09 GMT

Kris Popat makes a good point about the need for us to see ourselves
as Americans.  I've heard from II's that it's pointless to see ourselves
as Americans because the whites will never fully accept us because
of the color of our skin.  Does that mean that African Americans
are not American?  Sure they are.  A lot of the "C" in ABCD comes
from trying to act Indian in front of IIs and American in front
of white Americans.  

I think the best way to resolve it (at least this has worked
for me) is to decide where I would feel more comfortable living
for the next few years.  I know that if I went back to India,
even though I speak Bengali fluently, I would be treated as 
a "foreigner" because of my accent, my feminist views, my general 
world view, and the way I walk in a sari (a joke--this is something 
my Mom teases me about--she thinks I stand too straight and take 
big steps like a guy in a sari!!).  Okay, I guess I would get 
accustomed to the sari soon enough and could get used to being 
taller than most of the men, but my expectiations of life as a 
woman with a career are very different from those of some of my 
female cousins in India.  Even if you males wouldn't have to deal 
with the issue of having to assert your career and independence
if you went back to there, I'm guessing that you would also
have a different expectations of life that an Indian in India.
Does this sound right?

For these reasons, I've accepted myself as American.  It's
true that there are racial tensions here, but I think I
"fit in" better here and can fulfill my life's dreams and
meet my goals more easily here.

Bidushi
:-)


e-mail:  bhattach@molly.jpl.nasa.gov
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
From: amiller@almaden.ibm.com (Alex Miller)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: Problems faced by Indian immigrants not common to Chinese or
         Japanese
Date: 6 Nov 1992 02:50:59 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

First of all, thank you to Kelvin Chu, Harsh Deshma, Saeed Jaffer,
Kailash Joshi, Venkatraman Raghavan, Shashi Sathaye, and Mihir Shad,
for the information and ideas you have shared.

I am still trying to narrow in on my essay for school.  I'll repeat
the topic in case anyone missed it:

      Select three unique challenges faced by immigrants from India
      which were not common to their counterparts from either China
      or Japan.  How do you account for the differences?

In order to select the challenges, I'm sorting through some
demographic differences between the AI and the Chinese and Japanese.

(1) very big LATE population increase (since 1968)
    family reunification
    an influx of high skilled professionals, especially doctors
    an influx of students

(2) religious differences
    little understanding and much resistance to Hinduism

(3) gateway into the U.S.
    Chinese arrive to West Coast, anti-Asian sentiment grows
    Japanese arrive to West Coast, anti-Asian sentiment already strong
    New wave Asian Indians arrive to East Coast, new experience
    Chinese and Japanese favor West Coast - shared Ocean with Asia
    Asian Indians favor large Eastern cities - close to gateway

(4) Image of India -vs- reality
    1900s "Passage to India" view of India still exists
    difficult to reconcile highly skilled immigrants from a poor country
    does Ghandi image of India help modern immigrants?
    does Hari Krishna (sp?) image hurt Asian Indian Americans?

(5) India and International Politics
    Support of the Gadar movement caused political problems between
    U.S. and its WW-I allies

By the way, my Professor suggested I read "Strangers From A Different
Shore" by Takaki.  I'll see if I can get that text tomorrow.

(p.s. my newsfeed is somewhat problematic, but e-mail is good.
 If you post something in reply to this article, I would appreciate
 it if you could carbon-copy my e-mail address.)

Sincerely,

Alex Miller                       DISCLAIMER: My employer doesn't tell me
amiller@almaden.ibm.com           their opinions, so these must be mine.
From: samaddar@siemens.com (Sumitro Samaddar)
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian
Subject: Re: Linear times in Amrika
Date: 11 Nov 92 15:45:53 GMT
Reply-To: samaddar@siemens.com

soam@cs.cornell.edu (Soam Acharya) writes:

>PS - When was the last time the New York Times had anything positive to say
>about India?

When was the last time NYT had anything positive to say about anyone :-)
I haven't really seen any positive coverage about anyone in any media. That's
how it is. Good is normal, usual and boring. Only bad news is news. No news
is thus good news.

Actually, NYT had a (positive) article on Kerala achieving 100% literacy.
After all elections in India, there are usually +ve articles about democracy
in India.

Sumitro
Newsgroups: alt.culture.us.asian-indian