HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
X-Envelope-to: HISTORY@RUTVM1.BITNET
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Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 14:19:00 EST
From:         YONI@BROWNCOG.BITNET
Subject:      U.S Military Intervention

Greetings historians,
I am currently researching whether U.S military intervention in the internal
affairs of other countries is justified.  I am looking for articles on
the justifications of U.S military intervention in certain situations. I am
also looking for historical examples perhaps in the 19th century when
U.S Military intervention in the affairs of other countries was rare.
If anyone has any suggestions for articles on modern wars that would be helpful.
Thank You
YONI@BROWNCOG
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X-Vms-Mail-Cc: BOB
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Tue, 25 Aug 1992 13:29:42 PDT
From:         bob pasker <bob@HALFDOME.SF.CA.US>
Subject:      ancient germanic myths
Comments: To: well!rutvm1.BITNET!history@uunet.UU.NET

>I am looking for books, articles, or just plain personal
>knowledge of germanic myths for some research I am doing.
>
>My research touches on how germanic mythology played a role
>in post-WWI Germany.

when i see the word "myth" i always think of edith hamilton,
"mythology" (NY: Mentor, 1969), [BL310.H3 1969].  there is a
section entitled "the myths of the norsemen," which include
those incorporated into wagnerian opera.

also check out allan megill, "prophets of extremity" (berkeley:
university of california press, 1987).  there's a chapter on
"nietzsche and myth."

also see george l. mosse, _the crisis of german ideology_ (1964),
which describes _volkish_ thought.

--
-- bob pasker
-- bob@halfdome.sf.ca.us
--
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Thu, 3 Sep 1992 10:00:00 EDT
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: U.S Military Intervention

On Thu, 3 Sep 1992 07:45:54 EDT Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET> said:
> On Wed, 2 Sep 1992 16:22:00 EDT <DGPAZ@CLEMSON> said:
> >On Wed, 2 Sep 1992 13:08:18 EDT mgarber@DHVX20.CSUDH.EDU said:
> >> wouldn't the invasion of lower Canada be attributable to
> >> the British?
> >
> >Why would the British invade their own colony? We, the
> >USA, did it.
> >
> >Denis Paz
>
> "in response to a British threat" is the first speaker's unstated expansion
> of the question, I would hazard.

You may be correct. Rather than put words in mgarber's mouth, I
assumed that he/she meant what he said and said what she meant.

However, even if "in response to a British threat" is what was
meant, it still is the case that the USA had had its eyes on
the Canadas since 1776. From the British perspective, the
ongoing threat was from the USA.

Now, one can compile a long list of C19 interventions by the
British and the French. Such a list might even be longer than
that compiled for the USA. The point that I would stress, to
defend myself against certain members of this list, is that
the USA behaved like other powers, not that the USA is bad, and
certainly not that the USA is exceptional.

Denis Paz
dgpaz@clemson.bitnet
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Subject: Personal note to Mabry, Welling, Zielke, and Felscher
From: tbeaudoin@vax1.umkc.edu
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 06:06:19 GMT
Organization: University of Missouri - Kansas City


	Could Walter Felscher, Thomas Zielke, Don Mabry, and George
Welling please drop me an e-mail note?  I need to get in touch with 
all of you soon re: the upcoming mid-america history conference.
I am moderating the computer sessions and need some biographical info
on all of you! (George, I already KNOW you're a great bassist.)

	I apologize to other listmembers for the intrusion. 

Thomas Beaudoin
Lee's Summit High School
International Baccalaureate Program


TBEAUDOIN@VAX1.UMKC.EDU
TBEAUDOIN@UMKCVAX1


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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 12:24:24 CDT
From:         Don Mabry <djm1@RA.MSSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: ftp archives: catalogued?
Comments: To: HISTORY@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu

Thanks, Bob. I, for one, will look into your suggestions.

Don Mabry
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Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 10:59:00 EDT
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject: Re: the value of money

Hang on -- the thought just came to me.  When Australia went
decimal, did not they make the dollar convertible to 10s./50p?
In which case a newspaper would cost in the old currency a
mere 8 shillings?

Denis Paz
dgpaz@clemson.bitnet
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Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1992 21:48:37 -0400
From:         Agnes Kruchio <kruchio@EPAS.UTORONTO.CA>
Subject:      Re: Rantings of the 'new' religious right
Comments: To: HISTORY@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu
              "U17801%UICVM.BITNET@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu" at Aug 28, 92 8:15 pm

>
> On Fri, 28 Aug 1992 19:59:14 EDT Lenny said:
> >Hot Damn!!!  DAF sent a one-screen message!
> >
> >Praise be to God (whom I do not believe in, but thank him anyway).
> >
> >Lenny
>
> Why are you -- and we -- thankful? Because it was *only* a one-screen msg? Are
> they usually longer? More or less coherent? Being a novice helps to ask the
 dum
> b questions --rhetorical ones of course! No answers necessary.
>
> Renato

I think DAF has written a couple of books - in dribs and drabs -
on this list even since I have been here and I am relative
newcomer. The longer messages were 100s of lines long - provocative,
all of them; in fact someone at one point (who knows how
seriously) even proposed a list devoted solely to DAF's writings. There
was some bemused or serious? interest, but there was no followup as
far as I know. I think he has a lot to offer, and I am glad he is
cutting down on the length - a) he might get more readers this way and
b) and we can finally figure out what it is!

Agnes
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 10:10:38 EDT
From:         Juniper Sage <CHEATING@SBCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      RE: ftp archives

>In short, there is a great deal that can be done to make ra.msstate.edu and
>MALIN at kuhub.cc.ukans.edu significant research resources if those who are
>interested in this sort of an endeavor will keep these sites in mind as they
>pursue their research or plan their teaching.
>
>The time will come, of course, when ra and MALIN are filled and cannot beg
>more space, but both Don Mabry and I have some ideas of positive measures that
>can be taken when that eventuality begins to arise. These sites are not
>private preserves; we are operating them -- and our computer services support
>them -- as services to the profession, so the more who take an active role in
>their development, the better we will be fulfilling our function.
>
>Lynn
>
>Lynn_Nelson
>Department of History
>University of Kansas

And as one who has had opportunity to use both, I would like to take
a moment to thank both Don and Lynn for their work in "exploring these
new frontiers"; it is gratifying to find a few dedicated to providing
nearly unlimited access to information and research, particularly in
(not a flame, just an observation) the Humanities, where the prevalent
additude seems to be, "Why bother?"

JS
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Thu, 3 Sep 1992 12:38:24 EDT
From:         Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: U.S Military Intervention

On Thu, 3 Sep 1992 10:00:00 EDT <DGPAZ@CLEMSON> said:
>
>However, even if "in response to a British threat" is what was
>meant, it still is the case that the USA had had its eyes on
>the Canadas since 1776. From the British perspective, the
>ongoing threat was from the USA.
>
Oh yes, both '76 and '12 are examples of mixed motivations at work, I agree.

>Now, one can compile a long list of C19 interventions by the
>British and the French. Such a list might even be longer than
>that compiled for the USA. The point that I would stress, to
>defend myself against certain members of this list, is that
>the USA behaved like other powers, not that the USA is bad, and
>certainly not that the USA is exceptional.
>
>Denis Paz
>dgpaz@clemson.bitnet

Right.  I was struck, for example, by the long list of actions that could be
roughly grouped under "uprooting piracy."  A list of similar actions by nations
dating back to Rome (or earlier) would probably exceed BITNET file transfer
limits :-)
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Original_To:  BITNET%"HISTORY@UBVM.BITNET"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 15:50:00 EDT
From:         PBRUSH@SNYESCVA.BITNET
Subject:      RE: U.S Military Intervention

YONI@BROWNCOG.BITNET says;

>Greetings historians,

Don't be so limiting.

>I am currently researching whether U.S military intervention in the internal
>affairs of other countries is justified.  I am looking for articles on
>the justifications of U.S military intervention in certain situations. I am
>also looking for historical examples perhaps in the 19th century when
>U.S Military intervention in the affairs of other countries was rare.
>If anyone has any suggestions for articles on modern wars that would be
>helpful.

Although it does not deal with the 19th century, _Endless Enemies - The
Making of an Unfriendly World_ by Jonathan Kwitty deals with the subject
in the post World War II period.

I found it to be an excellent read.

Peter Brush
PBRUSH@SNYESCVA
Empire State College
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 18:14:29 CDT
From:         "Renato" <U17801@UICVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Beyond the drinking age
              2 Sep 1992 17:04:02 EDT from <DFOSS@CCVM.SUNYSB.EDU>

On Wed, 2 Sep 1992 17:04:02 EDT Daniel A. Foss said:
>The shrunken faculty pay packet no longer suffices to account for declining
>consumption of any luxury or quasi-luxury consumer goods. There's always the
>utility preference problem to deal with, which renders the problem of how
>much less your money is worth such a mess.
>
>Always bear in mind that in these dismal times we, statistically speaking,
>have had declining real income since 1973 and a more complicated product
>mix to spend it on, and spend it more friviolously in that we have a higher
>propensity to consume. Which in terms of that faculty member with the shrinking
>pay packet says that the alcohol consumed by him or her will take the form of
>lower-alcohol-content imported wine; sales of expensive wines are increasing as
>those of hard liquor decline.
>
>This has two correlates: Wine has greater snob appeal, or in Bourdieu's usage,
>accumulates more "symbolic capital," than the rapidly-becoming-archaic hard-
>drinking he-man sexist booze of the fading provincial-masculine subculture. You
>are, I can't, insnsibly acquiring world-class Class (statistically at least),
>if a bit late.
>
>Second, booze is not healthy. What is healty or good for you, what is a health
>hazard is often a matter of arbitrary social construction. See Mary Douglas and
>Aaron Wildawsky, Risk and Culture (1982). We need a quite deep understanding of
>a culture, and even that may not suffice, to account for why one toxin or "act
>of God" is feared and another ignored. But booze kills half as many people as
>does tobacco annually. The more informed people are, the more health hazards
>they tend to shun and the more health-promoting practices and dietary laws they
>will adopt. The characterization of "being informed" correlates with income and
>occupational status hence with snob appeal as mentioned above.
>
>Alcohol is tabooed as physical fitness becomes mandatory. Physical fitness is
>expensive, entailing health club fees, hence ensuring that those merely tough
>from hard work and harder living cannot afford to get in. Such people are
>scorned as violent criminals who'd readily kill each other over a pair of
>sneakers; decent people merely become envious and buy more. Anything which can
>be sold to the smart - in any sense - set as healthful, no matter how weird,
>will sell. For a while. The Style Section of the Sunday New York Times (Aug 23)
>featured the vogue among women for *aerobic boxing*. Why not mud wrestling if
>suitably endorsed?
>
>One final, minor point. Alcohol is a central nervous system depressant, hence
>defeats the upward-striver's aspirations to the stature of Type-A Manic Super-
>achiever much in vogue today.
>
>Sorry this has gone so far afield but, you see, I haven't had a drink since
>1966.
>
>Daniel A. Foss

Daniel,
       ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Renato
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 14:03:24 CDT
From:         Peter Davis <AXTHEPD@UICVMC.BITNET>
Subject:      Online Archives, etc.

 I'm new to e-mail and computers in general so please forgive my ignorance.  But
 all this talk about ftp archives has me wondering if there is a readily
 available e-mail directory of archives and libraries -- not only for direct
 access to data bases, but also just messages and queries?  Is this an absurdly
 stupid question?

 Peter Davis
 U of Illinois
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Thu, 3 Sep 1992 00:58:45 CDT
From:         "Robert S. Rush" <rsr1@RA.MSSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beyond the drinking age

I'd rather go hungry.
rsr1@msstate
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X-Envelope-to: hist-l@UKANVM.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 19:28:57 EDT
From:         "J. Johnson" <jxjohnson@UALR.EDU>
Subject:      ftp site: campaign '92 documents

An ftp site (nptn.org - National Public Telecomputing Network) has been
established for U.S. campaign '92 documents, i.e., Clinton & Bush
speeches, party platforms, position papers and other documents.

ftp 192.55.234.52

login as anonymous
password is guest

documents (including a Clinton Index and a Bush Index) are in directory
/pub/campaign.92
Clinton documents begin with a 'c'; Bush documents begin with a 'b'.

                                                        Janie Johnson

jxjohnson@ualr.edu
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 21:35:17 CDT
From:         "Renato Barahona" <U17801@UICVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Rantings from the "new" religious right

Cannot resist posting what has got to be THE quote of the day. From today's Mid
west ed. of the NYT, and dedicated to all historians/students of far-right move
ments. In a fund-raising letter by Pat Robertson in opposition to the proposed
equal rights amendment to the Iowa Constitution, the sometime Republican presid
ential contender asserts that the measure "is about a socialist, anti-family po
litical movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their chil
dren, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians."  As they sa
y around here, you be the judge.

Renato
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 12:41:50 EDT
From:         Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: U.S Military Intervention
              4 Sep 1992 08:35:25 EDT from <CMH114@PSUVM.PSU.EDU >

On Fri, 4 Sep 1992 08:35:25 EDT <CMH114@PSUVM.PSU.EDU> said:
>. . . I'm afraid that looking at it this way tends to make a country
>excessively cautious. There are certain situations, Iraq and Bosnia come to
>mind, where it is necessary to make an immediate decision between options, mild
>diplomacy to fullfledged blitzkreig, with out delay, or slow escalation from
>mildest option to harshest.

Making more countries more cautious isn't such a bad idea.

>. . . . Enforcement of the ceasefire would probably
>be better served by slightly erraticand harsh punitive attacks that the
>current, rational, predictible series of responses.

Probably not. The current state of the art seems to show, on the contrary, that
erratic actions simply provoke more & worse violence.  Not the most prime of
sources, but there was a study I recall in =Scientific American= last year...

>. . .This is what I mean when I claim that war needs to be seen
>as a option of diplomacy, not a failure of it.

No, I stand by my earlier post:  any time a war breaks out, one or more of the
belligerents has made a grave mistake. . . gallows pun fully intended.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 08:13:00 EDT
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject:      Historians' Drinking (Was: Briefer rantings)

On Tue, 1 Sep 1992 14:01:18 EDT "Daniel A. Foss" <DFOSS@CCVM.SUNYSB.EDU>
said:

> the current thread on ANTHRO-L collectively boasting of               the
> prodigious drinking done by anthropologists at anthropology conventions and
> how they are to outdo themselves this year), and quotidian frivolity  ustainin
g

The annual meeting of the Southern Historical Association once had
the reputation of having the best (=most?) parties of all the
historical conventions in the USA.
My impression (derived from two sources: attending the SHA meeting
and attending Clemson's own history faculty seminar) is that the
amount of drinking alcohol has declined over the course of the
1980s. My questions to this list are:
   (1) Do my impressions match reality (please start a separate
       thread, preferably on METAPHYZ-L, to discuss if/how many
       realities exist)?

   (2) If there is a change, how do we as historians explain it?
       The resurgence of family values during the Reagan years?
       Decline of department income?
       &c...?

Denis Paz
dgpaz@clemson.bitnet
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X-Vms-Mail-Cc: BOB
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 07:36:36 PDT
From:         bob pasker <bob@HALFDOME.SF.CA.US>
Subject:      the value of money
Comments: To: well!rutvm1.BITNET!history@uunet.UU.NET

>By the way, in the particular example you cite, what were the `bonds'
>composed of?  Could it include advances and liabilities related to seed,
>labour or services? Unrequited reciprocities as it were?

i only wish i knew.  the bonds were not registered (as far as i have
been able to determine) under the testator's name.

there was a habit, both of the descendants of the testator and of
folks in the area in general, of more wealthy individuals loaning
money to their neighbors for housebuilding or acquiring real property
(TJ would be so pleased), but there's no evidence to support the
notion that this is exactly what the $6k in bonds represented.

--
-- bob pasker
-- bob@halfdome.sf.ca.us
--
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 09:52:05 +1000
From:         Marion Diamond <med@LINGUA.CLTR.UQ.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: the value of money
Comments: To: HISTORY%RUTVM1.BITNET@pucc.Princeton.EDU

Bob,
The answer is that you can't!  Money changes value at different rates,
depending on what particular item you are dealing with.  There are various
indices of prices, some going back hundreds of years, but sometimes these
are more dangerous than useful.  Thus for instance, if you compare, say,
the cost of (1) a domestic servant; (2) a railway ticket; (3) a family meal;
(4) an acre of land; (5) a postage stamp ; over 100 years, you would find
that 1 & 4 had risen, 2 and 5 had fallen, and 3 was so different in content
as not to be comparable at all.  (This is for my part of the world - it
may be quite different where you are).  Or compare what the salary of a
middling academic would buy! - plenty of domestic servants in 1892, but
plenty of cheap travel now.

In my writing, I've always tried to avoid making comparisons which imply
that there is some absolute comparability between a dollar (or a pound,
or a shekel...) then and now, but for the sake of teaching, try to come
up with some useful rule of thumb (eg. the rate of pay for an unskilled
worker - annually? hourly? there are still problems).

Marion Diamond
med@lingua.cltr.uq.oz.au
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Via:         UK.AC.ULCC.CLUS1; 28 AUG 92 10:46:21 BST
X-Mailer:    ELM [version 2.3 PL8]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1992 10:43:22 BST
From:         Christopher Currie <c.currie@CLUS1.ULCC.AC.UK>
Subject:      Re: Online Archives, etc.

Jim Emmons usefully reminded us about archie. There are 'mirrors' of
archie running at several sites, in Europe and Australia as well as North
America. The management urge us to use the nearest site. If you use the
mcGill site first, that will tell you where the others are and which to use
in future.

Christopher
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 12:51:00 EDT
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: my computer is worth 1,234 loaves of bread

On Wed, 26 Aug 1992 09:04:16 PDT bob pasker <bob@HALFDOME.SF.CA.US>
said:

> my computer is worth 1,234 loaves of bread.  i can say that now
> that i know the value of money.  thanks folks!

It's not as simple as that -- things rarely are -- What sort of
bread? We buy our bread at around $2.25 a loaf, from a bake shop.
We choose not to buy bread at ca. 99 a loaf, from our grocery
store purveyor of Wonderbread. (The wonder is why people think
it's bread.)

That reminds me of a joke. A Frenchman was raving about English
bread, praising its texture, its taste, and its aroma. "Zut alors!"
he said, "the only thing I don't understand is why the English
call their bread 'sausage.'"

Denis Paz
dgpaz@clemson.bitnet
From: frankt@cwi.nl (Frank Teusink)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Subject: Re: the value of money
Date: 28 Aug 92 08:26:51 GMT

[discussions on a meassure on the value of money]

What about the wages of free laboures, like doctors, dressers, etc. The
(upper) middle class. It seems to me that their "income-level" hasn't
changed much through the centuries (that is, from +/- 1700?). One
could argue that the higer and lower incomes varied, but that the middle-
class stayed the middle class.

Just a thought,

Frank Teusink
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Tue, 25 Aug 1992 14:58:19 EDT
From:         Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: musical borrowings
              24 Aug 1992 10:44:16 EDT from <PRYLUCK@VM.TEMPLE.E DU>

On Mon, 24 Aug 1992 10:44:16 EDT Cal said:
>Agreed: musicians borrow from each other in various historical eras.
>
>As a non-musician, sometime-historian, I wonder whether there is an
>interesting historical context for "borrowing," "stealing," etc.?
>
>Is/was the use of music during different eras differently interpreted?
>
>Is/was it a matter of inspiration, tribute to an admired predecessor, simple
>knockoff of possibly profitable material, etc?  Sure, there is no simple
>answer; it is all of the above (and some I haven't thought of).  Who has
>looked at patterns that might help us understand the well-established
>phenomenon?
>
>Cal Pryluck                               <PRYLUCK@VM.TEMPLE.EDU>

When I made my post about borrowing/stealing, I was thinking of something much
simpler:  an artist who borrows hasn't integrated the material into his/her own
oeuvre--it's still returnable--; an artist who steals has--no deposit, no
return.

As for the other, a look at when the concept of "intellectual property" arose
and how developed would prove interesting--almost certainly has been done by
someone sometime before now.
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