HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: MROSE01@UKCC.UKY.EDU (mer)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: RE: Re:Multimedia/In Defense of Reason
Date: 18 Nov 92 18:59:12 GMT
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              18 Nov 1992 10:54:11 CST from <peckham@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Irv:         On monological discourse:

             I guess what I was referring to was Bakhtin's distinction
             between "official" and "unofficial" speech, which refers not
             to a single speaker, or to a multiplicity of speakers, but to
             the *kind* of speech that one or more speakers speak.
             On several occasions, Bakhtin allows slippage between monological
             and "official", and between dialogical and "unofficial."

             *I* (and this may be something private on my part) consider
             argumentation "official speech", whether engaged by one in a
             one-sided trumpet, in a carefully articulated essay taking
             opposing voices into account, or two or more individuals making
             their voices heard: monological because of their participation
             in official speech.  You might agree that argumentation is
             officially sanctioned form of speech these days, no?

             There may seem to be more than one voice, but given complicity
             theory, the agreement to disagree confirms that exclusive
             positions taken by opposing individuals are in fact components
             of an articulated web of dominance over the nature of speech
             acts at a particular historical and cultural moment.

             That's why I call argumentation monological.

             Forgive my naivety Irv; you gotta remember I'm new to rhetoric
             and composition.  Could you give me the Mead reference?  Thanks.

                                                         mer
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Date:         Fri, 20 Nov 1992 11:09:21 CST
From:         Irvin Peckham <peckham@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Getting a C
              92 8:22 am

Wing:
In your narrative, you seem to confirm the negative behavior grades
encourage.  In the era of computers, it seems that we could imagine
all sorts of ways to respond (I almost said evaluate) to student
performance both during and at the end of the semester.  Grades used
to be a shorthand way of reducing comments to number scores (during
which a lot was lost in the translation).  We no longer need numbers
on students.  Prospective employers, etc., can call up records and
scan comments.  When I think of all the possibilities via computers
and databases . . . .
  Oh, well.  I hope Clinton isn't as silly as Bush about "standards."
Clinton obviously isn't silly.
--
Irvin Peckham
Internet: peckham@unomaha.edu
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Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 16:19:12 -0600
From:         RONRON@USU.BITNET
Subject:      Re: bibliographic plea

Michael Gos -- I'm not too sure these apply specifically, since they are
for native speakers of English and you mentioned ESL, but Stephen N.
Judy (Tchudi now) _The ABCs of Literacy_ and Frank Smith's _Understanding
Reading_ are two of my favorites. Ron Shook
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Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1992 08:25:48 MST
From:         "David E. Schwalm" <IACDES@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Re:Multimedia/In Defense of Reason

From: David E. Schwalm
In writing especially, we seldom win arguments. An effective argument, in my
view, is one that destabilizes the position of people who disagree with you,
makes them nervous, less confortable in their position. But sometimes I write
arguments as a form of self-expression (it's fun). Other times, I like to
write arguments to demonstrate to people who disagree--but who willnever
change their minds--that they are pigheaded. I write other arguments mainly to
clarify my own thinking. And then other times I do argue to win.

-- David E. Schwalm, Assoc. Provost for Academic Programs
___Arizona State University West
___4701 West Thunderbird Rd.
___Phoenix, AZ 85069-7100___(602) 543-4500
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From: wkl1@Ra.MsState.Edu (Wing-Keong Loke                                               the consummate chronic prevaricator)
Subject: Re: getting a "C"
Organization: Mississippi State University
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 13:41:30 GMT

In article <9211152147.AA23252@iastate.edu> tmmyers@IASTATE.EDU writes:
>Wing-Keong Loke the consummate chronic prevaricator
>writes:
>
>I make what I learn very important to me.  So what if I get a
>"C?"  What's important is I've got a start, and if I have interested
>myself enoguh, I'll continue to read up on the subject throughout my
>life.
>
>Being a "scholar" (or at least in academics) I tend to agree with what
>is being said here.  However, that attitude runs into some difficulties.
>When applying to graduate schools, I have seen a few that have a "bench
>mark" of a certain GPA, and "C"s usually fall well below that mark.  What is
>a poor prospective student to do?  Go for pleasing the instructors and
>getting the "A", or learn with the "C"s?
>
>Tim Myers
>tmmyers@iastate.edu

	There IS a way out of the dilemma you and David E. Schwain talk 
about: institute the Senior thesis.The final goal of academic
learning is future production.  However, there's the problem of
some people who do very good graduate work but don't shine as a
professor.
	I think the recommendation should play a more central place
in the determination of a student's potential for graduate school.
However, as a prof once remarked to me: "[Graduate school] is a boot
camop."  If this is really true, thenthe student who's in search of
"enlightenment" is going to have such a rough time in grad school that
he might not make it since very few grad work leads one to really
wonderful new insights.
	I for one think that learning requires a movement from stability.
When a student gets too many "A's," does it mean that the student is not
sufficiently challenged?  Maybe the student is really good and more than
deserves the straight "A's."  If so, then we must ask two questions:
(1)How can we push that student to test his limits and thus explore the
"beyond?" (2)  Would the "A's" mean anything?
	A prof that I "know," in the introduction to a book of his, thanks
his former teach Morse Peckham for "encouraging the most productive
sort of iconoclasm."  I think this is wonderful.  I'd say a student can
learn a lot by attempting to bash iconic figures and in the process learn
why some arguments work and why some don't as well as how to phrase
questions.

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Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1992 10:40:09 CST
From:         Irvin Peckham <peckham@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: getting a "C"

>
> From: David E. Schwalm
> I think androgogy is a term created to oppose to pedagogy, student centered
> vs. teacher centered education.
>
David:  aren't we getting dangerously sexist with that term?

Note the root of pedagogy.  I suppose it's traced back to foot,
slaves who walked by foot, leading their little Greek charges
to school.  So the slaves who led the little children are the
original pedagogues.
Irv
--
Irvin Peckham
Internet: peckham@unomaha.edu
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Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 23:58:36 EST
From:         Bill Condon <USERLCBK@UMICHUM.BITNET>
Subject:      I cry thee mercy!

I send this message with great trepidation, and some mixed feelings.
I love MBU. I love the freedom here, the sense that everyone has
a voice and can use it whenever s/he wants.  However, I also have
processed almost 200 MBU messages in the last two days, *60* of
which came from a single person.  I don't have one of those filter
things that Wes describes--I can't even conveniently view headers
and delete messages I don't want to read.  So 200 messages almost
overwhelm me, particularly when a large proportion are fragmented and
often repetitive replies that might better be composed more deliberately
into one or two longer messages.  So this is an appeal in favor of
re-instituting some of the guidelines Fred posted last year about
this time, when the number of messages burgeoned:

1.  Read ALL your mail before responding to any of it.  That way we
can avoid five replies when one will do.

2.  When possible, combine responses; for even the most active of us,
one daily posting could well accomplish what we now use 60 for.

3.  Make sure your subscription is set to echo your own messages
back to you; seeing how many postings you have made may help
self-limit.

I hope no one is offended by this posting, but I find the situatio
sufficiently desperate that I couldn't hold it back any longer.

Bill Condon
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Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 22:35:32 EST
From:         "(Gary Beason)" <bubba@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Taking Offense at Reason
              92 3:17 pm

I think Sharon's point about non-persuasive logic and non-logical
persuasion is significant, a criticism echoed in Feyerabend's *A
Farewell to Reason*.  Jim notes that there is an ideal logic that is
fair.  True.  But there are also fair non-logical ideals.

St. Augustine talks about mediating the contradictory statements of
the Church Fathers and the Bible or the conflicting interpretations of
texts, and he invokes--charity.

Somehow, we are taught that emotions are prone to knee-jerk responses.
But arguments never lead to easily accepted conclusions?  No
knee-jerking in reasoning?

I guess I also have problems with separating logic from the ethical or
the emotional.


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|   Gary Beason
|   Purdue University
|   bubba@mace.cc.purdue.edu
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Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 22:27:59 CST
From:         Irvin Peckham <peckham@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Taking Offense at Reason
              92 11:53 am

>
> Irv -- Sorry to stutter.  You mentioned, in addition to Rosh, Lakoff.
> Is the reference his _Women, Fire, and Dangerous Things_?  If so,
> great book.  If not, could you give me a reference? Ron Shook
>
That's the one.  I certainly enjoyed it.
Irv

--
Irvin Peckham
Internet: peckham@unomaha.edu
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Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 11:51:48 -0600
From:         RONRON@USU.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Taking Offense at Reason

Irv -- When you speak about E. Rosch, are you talking about the one
who used color chips to test the Whorf-Sapir hypothesis and came to
the conclusion that humans exhibit "discrete perceptual discontinuities"?
That is, there are perceptual strategies that are "natural," in the
sense that they are based on human neuroogical processes.  If it's the
same person, I'm not sure I understand/agree with your statement that
she laid Aristotle to rest. Ron Shook
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Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 16:57:00 CDT
From:         Fred Kemp <YKFOK@TTACS.BITNET>
Subject:      new day dawning

Both Wini Wood of Wellesley and Tim McGee of Berkeley have
recently said nice things about my visits to their campuses, and
at the risk of being boorish about my own travels I'd like to
make an observation.  I've been going to campuses to talk about
network instruction (as have a number of others of us about other
computer-related issues) for several years.  Several things
impressed me about my two trips this fall.  First, although
Wellesley and Berkeley are top-of-the-line schools, they are on
different coasts, have decidedly different looks, and very
different missions. BUT, they were uniformly enthusiastic about
computers.  I'm sure that both Wini and Tim have received some
after-the-fact comments about the "computer guy" that weren't
all that supportive, but I'll have to say that while I was there
in front of those people I got nothing but sincere reactions
about wanting to learn about computers.

I say this in contrast to previous visits to other campuses at
which I was subjected to occasional outright hostility and
repetitions of the traditional "reducto computato" humanist's
dislike of anything technological.

But that is changing, and we're seeing it change first hand.  We
have gone from being devils to technicians, and now from being
technicians to being investigators.  Someday, somewhere, somebody
will think of us as scholars.  Oh yes, laugh ye of little faith.
But heavens t' Betsy, if there ever was a subject worthy of study
by scholars, it's the rhetoric of networks, studying the new
creature that may just dominate the way society remakes itself
in the next thirty years, the dialogic writer.

Fred Kemp, TTU
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Date:         Sun, 15 Nov 1992 12:39:00 CST
From:         Ted Hansen <TEDH%TIGGER.DECNET@MSUS1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: software & hardware

In 1984, St. Cloud State U. (St. Cloud, MN) had a dual-floppy PC-clone (Zenith
151--nice keyboard) lab of about 12 stations.  The wp software was Palantir.
My guess is that at least 4-6 of us started teach comp. in the lab that year
(Wayne Tosh, now deceased, was in charge).

About two years later, some of us switched to PC-Write (once the manual
improved), since it could be used on other PCs across the campus, and
eventually we got a Quicksoft site license.  One or two instructors switched to
Textra when it came in.  At one point, about 1/3 of those teaching comp. were
teaching writing with wp (plus Writer's Helper for some, plus a research-paper
course for one instructor using PC-File tailored for bibl. and notes dbs and
subtopic note-collection files/printouts).

Unfortunately, the basic lab still remains, although we've added PC's
(occasional hand-me-downs from other grants or from computer science or
business computing) and substituted better printers and now offer
laser-printing from students' disks (after virus-checking, copying, and
reformatting).

By spring, we hope to have hard drives added to most machines (and have about
25 total), and computer science may bring in net boards and software, plus
server, to show us how we might work within a Novell system (advanced
CSci-students plus prof will administer the system for us for awhile).  We may
have WP51 next year as an option.  Optical fiber will be installed on campus
gradually, and we hope to have a Mac lab some day in the
not-too-dim-and-distant future.

Ted Hansen
St. Cloud State U.
tedh@tigger.stcloud.msus.edu
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Date:         Mon, 23 Nov 1992 20:26:43 -0500
From:         ENGMYLES@UBVMS.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Music and Imagery

I've been absent for 17 years and have missed much.  But let me ask:
The Stations of the Cross function as images whether sculpted or painted;
they have a sequence, which ultimately depends on an (invisible to the viewer)
text; do they have a sequence and do they, the various stations, create
connections, however apparently paratactic, with each other?  Max Ernst
created novels out of collages; he called them novels.  No syntax, image to
image?  How did we learn to read them?
Myles (and now I go back into my cave until after Thanksgiving)
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Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1992 09:15:00 EST
From:         00djfitzstep@BSUVAX1.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Re:Multimedia/In Defense of Reason

John B claims that --I'm paraphrasing of course-- that one
who enters an argument hopes to swing the other party over
to his or her side.  I don't know about that. . . . .

I got into an argument the other day over a parking ticket,
and I entered that situation just _knowing_ I was going
to lose--I really had no hope of changing anyone's mind
about my liability for that ticket.

Folks, isn't it true that we don't always argue to win?  Or
do we have a different label for that kind of discourse
situation?  Fill me in. . . .

Dan Fitzstephens @ Ball /State
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Date:         Thu, 19 Nov 1992 16:05:17 EST
From:         David S Hogsette <dhogsett@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Reply to A sophistic rhetoric of hypertext?
              "Nick.Carbone%WRITING.UMASS.EDU@OHSTVMA.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU" at
              Nov 18, 92 10:44 am

Nick,

I like how you see hypertext/hepermedia as an environment which invites a
reunification of the heart and mind, so to speak, a coming together of
emotional and rational responses.  I think you are right to be excited by the
linking capabilities of hypertext; I, for one, enjoy the pedagogical
opportunities afforded by hypertext in terms of teaching and encouraging
critical thinking.  The linking function of Storyspace, for example, replicates
the associative thinking process and invites students to explore their own
associateve links with greater sophistication.  More interesting, for me, is
using hypertext as a journal writing environment wherein students can feel free
to explore their thinking modes in creative, dynamic, and complex ways without
the fear of being graded.

Dave
CC&L
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Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 1992 22:53:20 EST
From:         "(Gary Beason)" <bubba@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject:      dem persuasive images
              Nov 16, 92 9:38 pm

Actually, it's more like powerful pictures--not only did the Sports
Illustrated cover jinx continue this weekend with a Dallas Cowboys'
loss, but the article on the SWC made it look like the texas
university conference with all the photos of the t-sippin' cattle.

But then it was an article about corruption in the SWC . . . . :)



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|
|   Gary Beason
|   Purdue University
|   bubba@mace.cc.purdue.edu
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Date:         Sun, 15 Nov 1992 11:49:00 EDT
From:         "Composition Digest (Robert Royar,
              Moderator)" <R0MILL01@ULKYVX.BITNET>
Subject:      (Fwd: *C&CD*) Text is inside, Images outside? (28)

Entry: 28
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1992 09:24:14 EST
From: IN%"RobertRoyar@Delphi.COM" Robert Royar, (C&CD Moderator)
Message-id: <1992Nov15.092414.v7.018.1.Grendel.Lair@Cratylus>
Subject: Text is inside, Images outside? (28)
Reply-to: "Computers & Composition Digest (R. Royar)" <R0MILL01@ULKYVX.BITNET>
Organization: Cratylus Educational Software

I'm intrigued by the rationale for the following:
>Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1992 17:22:09 CST
>From: Irvin Peckham <peckham@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
>Subject: RE: Multimedia (*MBU*)
>Message-id: <01GR5GXXHHZK8WW4IY@ulkyvx.bitnet>

>  Looking back at my query about how text might trace cognitive
>processes (and I find that possibility questionable), I also
>thought about how text seems to come from inside the head; images
>don't.  Images represent the stuff on the outside (which can
>obviously *stand* for stuff on the inside), but text represents
>the stuff on the inside (has more *presence* regarding thought).

How is it that images are outside ther mind while text is inside?  Does this
imply that we can't think imagistically? What do we do with color? Are
colors internal or external?

I think it's all in our heads--the buzzing stream. We're just lucky we can
sort of agree on some of the properties of the supposed phenomena that lead
to our impressions.

Hey mer!!! What do you think as one of our resident thinkers of things
musically philosophical?

 -- Robert Royar (RobertRoyar@Delphi.com) New York Institute of Technology
    "The guerrilla lives among the people like the fish in the sea."
                                                              - Mao Zedong

------------------------------
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Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1992 07:26:00 CST
From:         SLATIN@UTXVM.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Multimedia

An addendum to Judith Tabron's comments on Steinberg and the rhetorical force
of medieval and Renaissance painting: T.J. Clarke's _Image of the People_
(Thames & Hudson, about 1973 or 74), and his later _Painting of Modern Life_
(1985), do a fine job of detailing the rhetorical moves of French painting in
the mid- to late- 19th c., notably in the cases of Courbet (Image of the
People) and Manet (Painting of Modern Life).  Brilliant books, brilliantly
written-- and nicely illustrated.

And does anyone here know Edward Tufte's _Envisioning Information_?  I think
I'm going to have to break down and shell out the $50; it keeps cropping up
and I keep not having read it.

John Slatin
UT Austin
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Date:         Wed, 18 Nov 1992 19:47:38 CST
From:         Irvin Peckham <peckham@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: getting a "C"
              92 7:21 pm

Ronald writes:>
> I believe that andragogy refers to the art of teaching adults, as
> opposed to pedagogy, the art of teaching children.  A book, "Andragogy,"
> was published by Association Press about 1975.  I think andros and
> anthros are variant spellings of >
> variant spellings of the Greek for "man."
>
>   -- L. Ronald Farquhar
>   -- South Suburban College
>   15800 South State STreet
>   -- South Holland, IL 60473-1200
>
To become somewhat serious again:  the problematic notion lies in
the gogue part (or whatever part denotes teaching);  Dewey and, later,
Freire, made a good case for being an "educator" rather than a
"teacher."  Engaging in dialogic rather than monologic education.
Irv

--
Irvin Peckham
Internet: peckham@unomaha.edu