From: jwh@citi.umich.edu (Jim Howe)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: Libertarianism...
Date: 22 Jan 1993 20:25:21 GMT
Organization: IFS Project, University of Michigan
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Reply-To: jwh@citi.umich.edu
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In article <1jpd9cINNmim@transfer.stratus.com>, jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com (Jim Mann) writes:
|> In article <PA142548.856.727711475@utkvm1.utk.edu>  
|> PA142548@utkvm1.utk.edu (T. Archer) writes:
|> > 
|> > Oh, I see, everyone has a RIGHT to health care.  Your worldview  
|> > can't accept libertarianism, because these people would be 
|> > responsible for their own care.  The elderly would be expected 
|> > to have made provisions for themselves before they BECAME elderly.
|> 
|> Yeah, and those poor folks who lose the low-paying job that
|> barely helped them squeak by and haven't found another one yet,
|> they can just die and decrease the surplus population, right?
|> 

B does not follow from A.  Most libertarians I know would argue
that people must be responsible for themselves.  If something
unfortunate happens, either by accident or through wanton
carelessness, the person does not have a right to demand aid
from any other person.  *HOWEVER*, this does not imply that
a libertarian believes that people in need shouldn't be helped.
They simply believe that aid should be voluntarily given, not
forced.  The goal is the same, provide aid for those who need
it, its the mechanism that differs.  Stop asserting that because
someone disagrees with your mechanism they also oppose the goal.

|> [...]
|> 
|> But, on the subject of rights: What do libertarians believe
|> are "rights"?  More importantly, WHY are these rights?  Why is 
|> your ownership of a vacation home in the Bahamas, say, more
|> of a right than the right of someone who loses his job to not be
|> tossed out in the street to starve?  

So the vacation home has moved from Hawaii to the Bahamas? :-)
Seriously, the person who bought the home in the Bahamas was able
to do so because they were able to produce something that someone
valued and were compensated in some way.  The home in the Bahamas
simply represents some portion of the persons lifes labors.  That
home is no more, and no less the property of a person than food
that the person planted and harvested.  Each represents some 
aspect of the persons labors.  If you don't control the products
of your own labor, how can you possibly consider yourself to be
free?  OTOH, the person who loses his job and gets tossed out
in the street is presumably paying someone else for the privilige
of living in the property owned by someone else.  If he can
no longer afford to live there, it is only by the decency and
kindness of the owner that he can realisticly continue to
live there.  Or he has to rely on the charity of others in order
to pay his bills.  Otherwise, he is simply taking something that rightly
belongs to someone else.

|> Or the right of society
|> to decide to help that starving person?  Or the right of society
|> to decide to protect the people with less power from the
|> people with more power (as is the case with worker protection
|> laws)?
|> 

Society is a concept, not a physical entity.  As such, it cannot
have rights.  It is the right of individuals to help others.  It
is the right of individuals to form voluntary groups and help
others.  It is not the right of individuals to form groups and
agree to take propery by force from some to give to others.

If you really want to get a better understanding of a libertarian
view of rights, I suggest you read a short book by Frederic Bastiat
entitled, "The Law".  An electronic version can be found via 
annoymous ftp from think.com in /pub/libernet/misc.  If you
can't ftp it, I can e-mail you a copy.  It's short (approx. 2300
lines) and reads quickly.  It was written in the mid 1800's by
a Frenchman, but the content is as appropriate today as when
it was first written.  I highly recommend that anyone who wishes
to argue about libertarianism (for or against) read this document.


James W. Howe                  internet: jwh@citi.umich.edu
University of Michigan             uucp: uunet!mailrus!citi.umich.edu!jwh
Ann Arbor, MI   48103-4943         
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,misc.legal,alt.politics.usa.constitution