HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rjb@milton.u.washington.edu (LeGrand Cinq-Mars)
Subject: Re: New Thread: Pagan Fiction
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 16:09:08 GMT

Leigh Ann Hussey responds to my question about what point Garner
missed in _The Owl Service_ with a nice, clear initiatory reading of 
the story.


I'm very grateful for her clarification, which helps me understand 
what she meant by saying that Garner "missed the point."  I agree that
Garner was not interested in explicitly dealing with that way of
looking at the story -- he was interested in looking at the impact
of the situation in the modern world, rather in the way a Jungian
analyst or a certain kind of family therapist would.  His characters 
were not in any way conscious of being part of an initiatory 
tale: they were caught up in a situation and dealing wiith energies 
that they hardly knew existed, and were in no way prepared to deal 
with (which has been known to happen in adolescence).

Still, it is interesting to read _The Owl Service_ as being about 
initiation into kingship, and to ponder who was initiated (or failed
the tests) and into what sort of kingship...



     That being said, I also don't think the English boy
     should have ended up with the girl in THE OWL SERVICE,
     I was rooting for the Welsh boy.  But hey...


Exactly.  But of course it was the English boy who, in a sense
passed the test that the Welsh boy refused to, or could not, pass.

The ending is a classic example of Garner's method of sudden reversal,
in which a conclusion that comes as a complete surprise, and seems
completely inappropriate, rewrites the meaning of the whole story so
that the reversal then seems inevitable.

--LeGrand
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Opinion on Masonry
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 1 Sep 92 01:13:18 GMT

In article <1992Aug31.201406.1@eagle.wesleyan.edu> cmacdonald@eagle.wesleyan.edu writes:
>Let's clear up, or attempt to, anyway, a few points persuant to this thread.
>The following are the opinions of a Mason who hasn't been to Lodge in a while,
>so take them accordingly.
>
>5. Masonry is often heavily politicized, what with black lodges being
>recognized or not, or those crazy all-females lodges in France, or Masonry
>becoming a sort of glorified Rotary.

Oooh, icky icky boo-boo!  All-female lodges!  Oh, yuck!  Must be a bunch
of bull-dykes who don't shave their legs.  Eeeeeeww! 

Or do you consider the all-male lodges to be just as "crazy?"

Janis C.
From: evc@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Edward Van Cura)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Templars not Masons <flame risk HIGH>
Date: 1 Sep 92 22:58:59 GMT

From: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)

> Cut off forever was a graceful and splendid civilization.

>  Cut off forever was my Lithuanian heritage, and all that
>  survives to today is vestiges of an ancient religion, couched
>  in a few folk traditions that my grandparents passed on.

>  Monoculturalism is, IMNSHO, just poison.  Destroying anything
>  which is different than ourselves is BAD EVOLUTIONAL PLANNING.
>
>  Philosophies included.

Does anyone know of a serious, scholarly attempt to revive 
the folk religion of the Baltic peoples?

In Troth,
Thorfinn
From: SL500000@brownvm.brown.edu (Robert Mathiesen)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Scott Mayo no longer on Net
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 21:58:43 EDT
Organization: Brown University - Providence, Rhode Island  USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: brownvm.brown.edu
News-Software: BNN via BNN_POST v1.0 beta

"Why do so many pagans or members of other religions in the West feel that th
ey have the one true way..."

This is why I hold up for emulation the Asian custom whereby one feels free to
practice more than one religion at the same time.  One might, e.g., consult a T
aoist, attend a Buddhist meditation, and honor one's ancestors according to a C
onfucian rite in one and the same day.  Looks like a good idea to me ...

Robert
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: eshin@ddsw1.mcs.com (Eshin-Fun)
Subject: Re: Masons/Knights Templar
Organization: ddsw1.MCS.COM Contributor, Chicago IL
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 12:29:29 GMT
X-Disclaimer:  Material posted in this article is the sole responsibility of
                the poster and does not represent MCSNet or the system owners.

>>ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:
: gerda@brewich.hou.tx.us (Gerda Thunarsson) writes:
: 
: >> I really doubt the masons are "luciferian" in any religious sense...
: >Our Odhinnsgodi has a Masonic Bible that his father had before him.  In 
: >that bible it is clearly stated that they are Luciferians.  If i did not 
: >have a reason for stating such, I would not have made the statement.
: > 
: Can you please quote the exact text from the Masonic Bible?  Also, please 
: include publishing information so that I can check the reference directly.
: 
:               Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
:                                Br'anArthur
: 
: Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)

It is no "scret" that the bible used by english speaking masons is the King
James Version of the text. It does not differ from any other printing of the
same.
The Masonic order is somewhat chauvenistic and I doubt that Gerda could
easily be trusted with inside information of the order other than that which
is in general print. There may be other versions of biblical text in other
languages but if referring to the "bible" it is usually a KJV.
The masons identify to the building of the temple of Solomon and those who
constructed it. If anything it would have more Hebrew identity than not.
Thus the symbols of building construction used by the order. 

The Catholic refute Masonry as they have their version called "Knights of
Columbus" The Mormon also deny Masonry as it is believed that Joseph Brown
was a Mason to begin with and some Mormons of confidance have advised me
that a lot of their ritual is borrowed from the Masonic order. Whether this
is true or not it is a moot point.

Eshin-Fun

Newsgroups: alt.pagan,alt.mythology
From: klotz@lclark.edu (Gretchen Klotz)
Subject: Rubber Stamps
Keywords: rubber stamps
Organization: Lewis & Clark College, Portland OR
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 07:14:56 GMT

Greetings, all!

I'm into rubber stamp art, and a major theme of my collection is spirit:
goddesses, witches, symbols, etc.  I have some pretty interesting stamps
including Saraswati and Lakshmi, Kuan Yin, African fertility goddess,
Tsagaglalal (She-Who-Watches, a local northwest native goddess), Boudica,
and assorted faeries-witches-mermaids-angels, standing stones, petroglyphs,
etc.  I have some catalogs that include non-xian spiritual themes, but am
looking for more, and for sources for some of the stamps I already have. 
I'm especially interested in expanding toward Asian, African, aboriginal/
indigenous images. 

Please email me if you have any leads.  If there is enough interest, I'll
post catalog addresses when I've compiled them.  Thanks!  (Btw, I already
subscribe to Rubberstampmadness and know about other stamp magazines,
fanzines and mail art.)

Any other inky fingers out there?

BB,

- Gretchen (aka The Cozmic Cuz)

P.S.  Please note that this article is crossposted to alt.pagan and
alt.mythology.
-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Gretchen Klotz		      Computing Services
              klotz@lclark.edu			Lewis & Clark College
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,alt.mythology,talk.religion.misc
From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Mahabharata: Yudhishthira talks to the lake
Keywords: I am that I am, I am dharma
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 23:30:31 GMT

Lake: What is quicker that the wind?
Yudhi: Thought.
Lake: What can cover the earth?
Yudhi: Darkness.
Lake: Who are more numerous, the living or the dead?
Yudhi: The living, because the dead are no longer
Lake: Give me an example of space.
Yudhi: My two hands, as one.
Lake: An example of grief?
Yudhi: Ignorance.
Lake: Of poison?
Yudhi: Desire.
Lake: An example of defeat?
Yudhi: Victory.
Lake: Which came first, day or night?
Yudhi: Day, but it was only a day ahead.
Lake: What is the cause of the world?
Yudhi: Love.
Lake: What is your opposite?
Yudhi: Myself
Lake: What is madness?
Yudhi: A forgotten way.
Lake: And revolt, why do people revolt?
Yudhi: To find beauty, either in life or in death.
Lake: And what for each of us is inevitable?
Yudhi: Happiness.
Lake: And what is the greatest wonder?
Yudhi: Each day death strikes, and we live as though we were immortal,
  this is the greatest wonder.

Yudhi: Who are you?
Lake: I am dharma [individual right conduct], your father. I am
constancy of lightness, the order of the world.

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: eshin@ddsw1.mcs.com (Eshin-Fun)
Subject: Re: Scott Mayo & the net
Organization: ddsw1.MCS.COM Contributor, Chicago IL
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL3
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 13:16:11 GMT
X-Disclaimer:  Material posted in this article is the sole responsibility of
                the poster and does not represent MCSNet or the system owners.

>>markbr@radian.UUCP (Mark Roth) writes:
: 
:  About the thread concerning Scott's loosing his net access:
:  
:  Eshin-Fun - grow up.
:  
:  For all the rest, it wasn't any net Gods, it was Bush's economy. Don't some
:  of y'all read/listen to the news, or read who *writes* these posts? Scott's
:  news path was Wang.com; Wang, a major computer manufacturer (for the info
:  of the oblivious), just went belly-up (Chapter 11, I think). Lots of others
:  (several thousand) are now out of work, as well as short access.
:  
:  In addition, Scott did, at least, seem to have some idea of courtesy &
:  argument. I, too, wish he & others like him would go away, but at least
:  *some* of his posts were reasonable, unlike, for those of you who were
:  here last year, Charley pain-in-the-ass Wingate.
:  
:  (For the generalization-impaired, I take it as given that people like Amanda
:  do *NOT* fit into the category in the paragraph above.)
:  
:  	mark<<

Perhaps it is *you* who should mature a little more and realize that all
ills cannot be rationalized by a system of government one does not agree
with. 
I did not make reference to any "net gods". Just to the gods themselves that
maybe, more than likely may have an influence even on our political
frustrations.
We write on a thread called Alt.pagan which implies a "pagan" point of view
and that suggests an approach that is not necessarily political, but rather
philosophical, religious as well.

To believe in the "gods" is to give them the right of judgement though we
each may have different opinions.
All situations have their "good" and "dissapointing" or inconvinient side.
The object of power is sometimes to have a control of those consequences
before they are capable of happening.

If you do not like the government, then run for office. If you can't do
that, then "vote" or start some movement which rather than talk would do. If
worse comes to worse. Start a revolution. But please, don't bellyache of
what is past and condemn what you do not understand.

As a lot of my posts are written, my statement has a double entendre.
Personally I liked Scott Mayo. And I'm sure that he will find ways to get
back on the net. If I had differences with him it was because of his aproach
to me or what I said. To which I have no desire to have conversation with
him. But I cannot judge him no more than *you* can judge me. 

"grow up"? I haven't stopped doing that. But by your pontification it seems
you have.

Eshin-Fun
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: info wanted on runes
From: canders@isr.harvard.edu (Carl E. Anderson)
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 92 15:41:33 GMT
Organization: Harvard University, Cambridge, MA

In article <1992Aug31.235535.25031@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au> mongoose@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Conrad Leviston) writes:
>	On Oghams, they were mostly found in Ireland, and indeed most of
>the oldest oghams were written there, indicating that this is where they
>originated from. There has also been at least one ogham message found in
>North America, indicating that the Vikings used them, and also made it to
>America before Columbus. I am afraid that I don't have any sources that I
>can quote, but the person who told me is one I would trust implicitly.

	Well, as for Ogham in America - there is some evidence that Celts
arrived in America either before or after the Norse.  If it was after, then
they didn't bring Ogham.  The problem with Ogham in North America, is that
those things which have been claimed to be Ogham are probably simply
glacial striation marks.  
	The Norse did not use Ogham, or at least there is no evidence that
they did.  I believe Ogham had largely fallen out of use by the Viking
period anyway.

Cheers,
Carl

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl Edlund Anderson	            	"Hefi ek ok aldri sva reitt vapn
canders@isr.harvard.edu			at manni at eigi hafi vidh kommit."
OR
anderso2@husc.harvard.edu			- Skarphedhinn Njalsson 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: shava@hermes.oit.unc.edu (Shava Nerad Averett)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Bailing Out (rant) (was: Re: Freedom of Religion as well as everything else)
Date: 31 Aug 92 22:13:41 GMT
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill

In article <krikket.6837@meltdown.chi.il.us> krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick) writes:
>What parts of the country is this taking place in?  Anywhere besides
>California, Washington (state), and Oregon?  (Yes, I know that is a hell of a
>lot, and I want to fight that much, but I'm still wonder how widespread this
>is.)  Quayle and Bush have been quoted a lot here in regards to the
>hate-mongering, and I don't doubt it.  But I wonder what the sources are, so I
>can get some people in my area stirred up against them?

Ever hear of Jesse Helms?  We've been dealing with this in NC on a consistant
basis since there've been white people here, I think.  And I hear it's worse
in most of the rest of the south...

>This year I'm voting Libertarian.

Until the libertarian party can field *local* candidates that have a snow-
ball's chance in hell, and work their way up to the national level, you
are effectively voting for the incumbant, by the statistics.

I come from a state (Vermont) which regularly runs 4-6 party slates for 
offices right on up to national office (VT has the only Independant
congressman -- he started out Socialist, and was mayor of the largest
city in Vermont, re-elected 3 times, as I remember, before he ran for
the DC House -- Goddess bless Bernie Sanders!).  I support multiple party
systems.  But I would not waste my vote on a third party candidate any-
where (including the US federal elections) that third parties have no
infrastructural support (like having won on the next-down level of federal
bureaucracy...)

-- 
Shava Nerad Averett				shava_averett@unc.edu
/*  all materials (c)1992, Shava Nerad Averett, and have nothing significant
    to do with the University of North Carolina, a mostly owned subsidiary 
    of the NC Legislature, a mostly owned subsidiary of the DOT.      */
From: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,alt.individualism
Subject: Re: Abandoning the Sinking Ship
Date: 2 Sep 92 12:43:43 GMT
Reply-To: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Organization: COMANDOS Project, Glesga Yoonie

rks@teal.csn.org (Reykja K. Sigurdsson) wrote:
> I have been reading with interest the thread about leaving the country.
> Since this subject is one rather dear to me (I am planning to immigrate to
> Iceland), I thought I would try to articulate my reasons for the decision. 
> It seems to me that living in a certain place, associating with certain
> groups, etc., is implied consent to the prevailing social ethic of that
> group/society. 

This is something like what T.S. Eliot said in justification of his decision
to leave the US and become a English reactionary; in practice, the attitudes
he was adopting were those of the ruling elite and certainly not the English
people as a whole.

It's a spineless way of justifying a preformed decision to grovel to the
powerful.  I'd guess that a large proportion of the readers of this group
do not consent to the prevailing social ethic of any existing society on
earth.  I've lived in 5 countries now, and will probably live in a few
more, and have had nothing but contempt for the institutionalized values of
any of them.  If you've got a brain you'll be a dissident anywhere.  All
states ask immigrants to leave their consciences behind at the border post;
piss on that, whatever the regime is.

And, while I haven't lived in Iceland, I'd be surprised if you found it
quite as appealing close up as the image of it you've constructed.  The
novels of Halldor Laxness point to quite a few rather familiar problems
that no capitalist social democracy has been able to avoid.  (Racism, for
a start, if your claim is true that their immigration rules are intended
to keep out the needy while admitting rich white Americans like yourself).

Gnosticism is not exactly paganism, but its central vision - that the
universe is run by an *omnipresent* and malign being - is a pretty sane
way to think about the New World Order.  You can run but you can't hide,
as the man put it.

-- 
--  Jack Campin    room G092, Computing Science Department, Glasgow University,
17 Lilybank Gardens, Glasgow G12 8RZ, Scotland   TEL: 041 339 8855 x6854 (work)
INTERNET: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk or via nsfnet-relay.ac.uk    FAX: 041 330 4913
BANG!net: via mcsun and uknet     BITNET: via UKACRL    UUCP: jack@glasgow.uucp
From: krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Church of All Worlds?
Date: 28 Aug 92 23:27:32 GMT
Organization: The Meltdown - A Team Star BBS

In article <1992Aug25.164544.3056@tandon.com>, manes@tandon.com (Dane Manes)
writes:
>Hi guys!
>
>Got a question here.  I was reading a copy of the _Green Egg_, found by one
>of my roomates in a search of the eternally bizarre (that also netted the 
>current copy of _Mondo 2000_), and noticed that it was published by the
>"Church of All Worlds."  Now Heinlein only wanted to make us think about 
>what we were doing and where we were going, but I feel that he also came up
>with some pretty good ideas as well.
>
>Are these guys for real?  What are they about?  I'm going to call them
>today (the Los Angelese Nest) and see what's up, but I'd like to have your
>opinions as well.

Yup, these guys are "for real".  One person in reviewing them said it was like
Heinlein meets Ayn Rand.  (How they got that, I dunno, but...)  They are your
average Paganistic Church...  :)

I would answer more in depth, but I have never worked with them.  This also the
group that is trying to form the United Federation of Pagans.

Krikket               ! krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us ! USnail:3 Danada Square E.
a.k.a Doug Krick      ! Team Star Charter Member   !        Suite 246
Data ph# 708/665-9732 ! #include<std.disclaimers>  !        Wheaton, Il 60187
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Just another commentary on the sad state of affairs on our nation today.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino)
Subject: re: More Survey Garbage
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 22:45:00 GMT

>Blessings to everyone except the Colvins...
>alizard

While we're all human and while it is *VERY* *HARD* not to feel
this way, we should not do this.

I know, I know, but we must take a higher path that is our calling.
Blessed Be is Blessed Be.  Yes, I too, often feel this way.  Yes
I too find it *HARD*, but we have to try.

Blessed Be to everyone, especially the Colvins, that they might
find the error in their ways.

Tammy

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: re: More Survey Garbage
Date: 4 Sep 92 11:08:00 GMT
Organization: University of Houston
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

>you have only to look at the headers to see it 'taint so!
>BTW, This guy is bugging me now ON CIS... seems he noticed an ad I put on
>CIS for my board, and connected the two names. Oh, well. I may have to 
>ask CIS to change my account number.... :(
Does anyone still have the e-mail address for Chris Colvin.
I would like to have it.

Thanx, Tammy
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: pharvey@quack.sac.ca.us (Paul Harvey)
Subject: Re: info wanted on runes
Organization: The Duck Pond public unix: +1 408 249 9630, log in as 'guest'.
	<1992Aug27.183037.8109@access.digex.com> <BtqF22.FKH@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 19:10:04 GMT

In article <BtqF22.FKH@news.cso.uiuc.edu> 
ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:
>Anglo-Saxon (Old English) is the name of a language.  It is the language which
>came into being when the two Germanic peoples, the Angle and the Saxons, who
>had come from the Continent to invade Britain, were merging in what eventually
>became England.  That is, the island Britain had been Celtic (as the name
>shows--from Brython, one of the major tribes of Celts).  During the first
>millenium C.E., the Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Frisians, and some other Germanic
>peoples invaded the southeast part of Britain, forming England.  It is my
>understanding that the Germanic language people were of more northernly stock
>than the Celts (though modern Germany is in territory which Celts once called
>home).  All of these Germanic language peoples were on the continent until
>sometime in the Common Era, while the Celts had been in the British Isles for
>at least half a millenia before the Germanic invasions.

Some more general concepts: The Celtic people are believed to have come
from Bavaria and they and their culture spread out over all of N. Europe
such that N. Europe was then a Celtic nation of many Celtic tribes. The
Celts were the first invaders in N. Europe that we know about, but they
weren't the last. Next came the Germanic peoples like the A-S-J etc.
Celtic culture was absorbed and pushed back to W. UK. Northern European
roots are considered to be Celto-Germanic just as Southern European
roots are considered to be Greco-Roman. At some points it becomes
difficult to tell the pairs apart because the two cultures merged and
became one.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino)
Subject: Pagan stuff in Xianity
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 11:55:00 GMT

As everyone knows you find pagan stuff in Xianity.  This is
because early Xians adopted the pagan symbols, holidays, places
of worship, etc. of the people they were converting.

If you want an original source I recommend you read
Bede's _History of the English Church and People_

It has in it letters written by Gregory the Great as Pope
to St. Augustine on how to convert pagans.

Tammy
Newsgroups: alt.pagan