From: cjmchale@dsg.cs.tcd.ie (Ciaran McHale)
Subject: Seperatists etc.
Organization: DSG, Dept. of Computer Science, Trinity College Dublin
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 14:05:21 GMT

In <1992Dec16.031456.10153@news.acns.nwu.edu>
Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde) writes:
>On one hand I think using the term "seperatist" was unjustified
>in the first place.

I was a bit surprised to find that "separatist" was being used (or
being interpreted as being used) as an insult (at least at one point in
this thread). Even the title of the thread (I've changed the Subject:
line) "Attack of the Separatists" is far from neutral.

(Feminist separatists are fine. Sure, some of my best friends are... :-)

[Then again, there was something which I had not noticed until it was
pointed out to me:  whenever a woman rings up a radio talk show in
Ireland about some issue which affects women, she is likely to start
off with "I'm not a feminist but..." Until this was pointed out to me
and I then started to notice it on the radio, I had not been aware that
the label of "feminist" is often considered to be a dismissive insult.]

>At the same time, I like to think of myself as a feminist, and
>would maintain the postion that it is not the case that men
>*can't* understand women or feminism, but rather that we
>usually don't have incentives to try very hard.

Also that much of the material written about feminism is aimed at a
female audience, so it can be difficult for a male (who is outside the
intended audience) to read and understand it. Thankfully, over the last
few years I have been able to find a few, though sadly only a few,
books on feminism/sexism which were accessible enough for me to read.

>The implicit suggestion that men are congenitally clueless
>annoys me, though I recognize it is grounded in anger about
>substantial issues, and I try not to take it very personally.

Presumably you read the "You men just don't get it" comment as meaning
"You men are stupid." I agree that often men don't "get it", but I
don't think it has anything to do with stupidity and I didn't read the
comment as an insult.

I think that there are some things which are extrememly difficult to
understand unless one has experienced them personally. A lot of the
things which "men don't get" are things which men usually haven't
experienced (or have only experienced very briefly) and _that_ is why
many men find it difficult to comprehend. In a similar fashion, there
are some things about being queer which are very difficult for straight
people to understand---simply because these things are outside of their
experiences. One great way, for me at least, to help understand things
which one has not experienced is to read books of personal accounts
written by those who have experienced them. Thus, reading "Bi Any Other
Name" might help a straight person understand what it is like to be
bisexual. Similarly, reading "Sexual Harassment" (which contains about
70 or more personal accounts by women who have been sexually harassed)
helped me *enormously* in trying to understand some issues which affect
women.


Ciaran.
-- 
---- Ciaran McHale (cjmchale@dsg.cs.tcd.ie)
\bi/ Department of Computer Science, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland.
 \/  Telephone: +353-1-7021539 FAX: +353-1-6772204
Newsgroups: soc.bi