From: weemba@libra.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: WEEMBA jests or admits atheism? (Was: Re: WEEMBA and DABROWSKI Ang
Date: 10 Apr 92 19:41:22 GMT
Reply-To: weemba@libra.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener)
Distribution: world,public
Organization: The Wistar Institute of Anatomy and Biology
In-reply-to: J5J@psuvm.psu.edu (John A. Johnson)

In article <92101.135955J5J@psuvm.psu.edu>, J5J@psuvm (John A. Johnson) writes:
>What about the Jewish version, as understood by yourself?

That's just it.  I don't understand it.  I've been bothering rabbis
on it for quite some time now, and they can give me all sorts of
interesting stories and spiels and the like, and sometimes say to
not listen to certain other rabbis, etc.

It's interesting, but I don't understand it.  As I said to one rabbi,
"Given what you say is true, then yes, I believe in God, but I don't
believe that I believe in God."

>>>If I got that right, the next question is, are you jesting?

>>I am trying to have fun.  Did you not notice the hidden kibo baits?

>I noticed, I smiled, and then ignored in order to act like we are
>having a serious discussion.

Well, OK, I'll keep up the act.

>>There's a Chassidic story told about a disciple having deep anxiety over
>>his philosophical doubts regarding God.  He goes to his rebbe and tells
>>him his troubles.  The rebbe asks him if he's eating the pork, cursing
>>his parents, working on the Sabbath etc.  The disciple is shocked and
>>repulsed at the suggestions.  So the rebbe tells him he doesn't have any
>>real doubts (ie, in the real world), just imaginary ones (ie, in his mind).

>>There are many points to this story, but the one relevant here is whose
>>notion of theism-vs-atheism should I hold by?  Yours?  Or Judaism's?

>None of the above.  The correct answer is (c) the disciple's.

I did mention deconstruction before.  I've found Mark Taylor ERRING and
its a/theism to be a closer description of my beliefs or lack than just
straightforward atheism/theism.

>Not only is this the most intelligent, thought-provoking, useful
>thing you've posted here to date, I think it qualifies for one of the
>best instructive stories posted by anyone in alt.atheism.

You're welcome.  On that note,   |H tik h i tahn cluu t	feha!h kb!
I'll retire from alt.atheism.	 |e hns	e s ecig acls o	rsmn!i io!

>Your story obviously illustrates one of the major lessons you have been
>trying to get across to atheists about Judaism, viz., that actions
>rather than beliefs define the religosity of a Jew.

I keep thinking this distinction is simple and clear, but I'm too close
to the subject to see otherwise.

>IMHO, the disciple's perspective is all important.  If he buys the
>rebbe's distinction, then he is no atheist.  If he doesn't buy it,
>then the doubts in his mind are real and he is a candidate for atheism.

But what if the rebbe is lying, and merely wants to give the discipline
something else to think about?  There's something about these questions
that can burn a whole in your brain if you let them.  It doesn't even
have to be religious: some people start thinking about solipsism and
are lost.
-- 
-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@libra.wistar.upenn.edu) "[George Bush] is a man
 who was born on third base and thinks he hit a triple." --Jim Hightower