From: jlw@HEBREW.CC.COLUMBIA.EDU (James Waldrop)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp
Subject: re: Sarcasm and Ember
Date: 28 Aug 92 20:31:11 GMT

escott@csuvax1.csu.murdoch.edu.au (Evan Scott) writes:
>beeman@cats.ucsc.edu (Adam Beeman) writes:
>>MudOS is *years* ahead of its time, surely.
>
>Whether or not this was supposed to amuse us Buddha, you _have_
>been claiming this far and wide from the lofty heights of your ivory
>tower.  Thanx for in one statement demonstrating the ultimate
>in oxymoronical self-aggrandizing foolishness.

Oh please.  As people have said, Buddha was being sarcastic.  No one
has claimed that MudOS is the font of all wisdom, rather we've explained
what MudOS will do.  Is it "oxymoronical self-aggrandizing foolishness"
to explain in which ways MudOS is different from the other LP drivers
out there?  I'm not really sure what "ivory tower" we're speaking from
either.  TMI can't really be blamed for the malformed assumptions you
make about its goals.   To spout them as fact is arrogance of a different
nature, but arrogance nonetheless.

>There are two reasons people would wish to develop and discuss new
>ideas and methods for doing things -
>a) As an ego boost, an attempt to be able to lord over others by forever
>   claiming "such & such an idea was mine".
>b) As a genuine attempt to further the refinement, sophistication and
>   general niftiness of something through an honest, open and 
>   egoless forum of discussion.

I think the person who sits back and says "I've done this, but if I tell you
how then you'll go out and do it yourself, and I won't get credit for it,
so instead I'll just ridicule your efforts while refusing to discuss mine",
is pretty firmly in camp A.  TMI, on the other hand, distributes its driver
publicly, and allows online access to the people who write that driver, so
that bug reports and suggestions for improvement are more easily discussed.
Like anyone, if our code is used directly, we'd appreciate a header saying
so, but ideas are dealt with in a fairly open manner.  I think this places
us smack in the middle of camp B.

>If such a forum _can_ be maintained, great gains can be achieved.  
>_Everyone_ has interesting and potentially useful ideas that can
>enhance any project that is embarked upon ... if the people doing
>the actual implementation stop and listen and discuss.
>Surprisingly Buddha, you and the select group of people who work on your
>love-child are not the only ones with good ideas in the world ... and
>this goes for all the other cliquey groups on r.g.m.lp as well.

If you had actually come to us saying "I have this suggestion", and we
had refused to listen to you, perhaps your opinion would be justified.
As it is, though, you really don't know what your talking about.  The
group of people who work on the driver is in no way "select", other than
the fact that they can code in C.  Even knowing C isn't a requirement if
someone just wants to discuss ideas.  As for other cliques on rgm.lp,
the only one I can identify is the Geoff/Mike gang.  Everyone else is
friendly to each other, and quite often can be found on one another's muds.

>I think I AM trying to say that each driver project should look deeper to
>find out what _overall_ trends they are trying to promote ... and then
>listen to peoples ideas, and look at what the other groups are willing to
>openly share, and pick and choose those things which they think will fit
>in well with their ideologies.

You're implying that this isn't happening.  Have you ever talked to me
about the MudOS driver, or TMI in general?   If so, it seems to have
slipped my mind.  I do know that I've had such talks with Tintin, Pinkfish,
Tenghil, and Zellski.  My views with respect to the long term goals of MudOS
and TMI have been stated on several different occasions, and even logged at
a few meetings we've had.  The goals of the CD team have also been pretty
clearly expressed.  Could it be that you weren't there to hear, or weren't
listening?

Sulam
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.lp