HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jspence@cmptrc.lonestar.org (John Spence)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery,alt.drugs
Subject: Re: Alcoholism (was: Hate Speech Okay ...)
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 17:33:42 GMT
Organization: CompuTrac Inc., Richardson TX

In article <1992Aug29.232241.24837@zip.eecs.umich.edu> carnes@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Richard Carnes) writes:
[ lots deleted ]
>Exactly.  The cultures in which problem drinking is more common are
>those in which alcohol thought of as demon rum, as a substance that
>has the diabolical power to cause people to "lose control" of their
>behavior.  The cultures in which problem drinking is less common are
>those that regard drinking casually, as a normal part of dining,
>family celebrations, religious ritual, and so forth.  (Typical
>attitudes of Italian culture toward drinking can be seen in the movie
>"Moonstruck".)  In these cultures, people are *expected* to drink in a
>controlled and responsible manner, and problem drinking is regarded as
>the responsibility of the drinker, not as a "disease" that randomly
>strikes helpless victims.  Never underestimate the power of the
>self-fulfilling prophecy.
>
>Richard Carnes

Richard, it seems that you want to prove the point that alcoholism is a product
of repressive cultures. You may be on a roll here, but you concept of disease
is wrong. It seems that you are thinking of the disease as something like 
catching the flu or lung cancer. This is not the case. Make an attempt to 
think of the disease of alcoholism in terms of mental diseases such as
depression. Those suffering from depression are not helpless victims. These
alcoholics suffer from character disorders and not from neuroses, in that it is
a disease that they are not aware of because it is so intwined in their
personality. 

Alcoholism has the appearence of a disease, that is, it has symptoms, is
progressive and at later stages is chronic. Although you can not get relief
from alcoholism by medical treatment, i.e. drugs, like the patient with 
depression can, the alcoholic like the depressed must seek to personally 
remove the feeling of victimization in order to have long term recovery.

AA in Europe has had small successes with alcoholics in Italy and France due
to the acceptance of alcohol in their the lives and the constant peer pressure.
In fact AA in France openly drinks wine because of the widely accepted view
that only distilled beverages are the real problem. As a side note, AA had
also observed that poor attendence and a lack of long term sobrity had
a direct correlation to the lack in a belief in the Higher Power. This was
observed at the group level and not at an individual level. This was brought
to AA's attention because there had been a number of group that ceased to
exist. 
-- 
jspence@cmptrc.lonestar.org                                (214) 235-7161 x4100
John E. Spence                                                  CompuTrac, Inc.
From: ben@media.mit.edu (Benjamin Kline Lowengard)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Step Nine
Date: 4 Sep 92 15:50:35 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: MIT Media Laboratory

In article <1992Sep03.204704.22016@Veritas.COM> rdh@Veritas.COM (Robert Hartman) writes:
(in response to questions about step 9)
>
>For instance, if there was a fear that contacting you might feed an
>obsession or incite false hopes, she might not want to.  Also, it might
>be years before she's ready for a ninth step.
>
>If I could make a suggestion, I don't think I'd expect anything of her
>one way or the other.  Just because someone I have feelings for is working
>a program, that doesn't mean that it will work out better for me.
>
>-r

Well this is something I am aware of, and was rather open about. I knew
from the start, relationships are difficult to maintain in a period of
recovery..there are a lot changes that happen-from personality changes
and new "self" discoveries to time scheduling, diet, habits and new friends.
I accept these changes and -because of the good one's struggle to deal
with recovery does- provided a lot of understanding, space, and encouragement.
It is not easy, and I respect the accomplishments of self determination.
People who do not know what it takes for someone to overcome addiction don't
understand what a huge effort it takes, and hence are very unsympathetic
toward my "considerate" behavior in the midst of a drastic, and abrupt
upheaval in what appeared to be a communicative relationship. I realize
I can't take part in this person's life right now -no matter what I do-if the 
door ain't open I can't go in- I guess I am hoping that some explanation
will appear sometime...but I can't put my life on hold-self pity and all
that-because the door suddenly slammed shut. My support and love and
encouragement is still here...because I believe in support, love, and
encouragement as important human tools of expression. 

Thanks for the kind responses and have faith!

benj
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: maxwell@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Mark Story)
Subject: Re: Step Eight
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 09:17:27 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO  80523

In article <1992Aug25.161017.7378@Cadence.COM> jerpseth@sd.cadence.com (James Jerpseth) writes:
>When I first saw step 8, I freaked! All of them, TODAY!
>
>Well, my sponsor gave me a good piece of advice:
>
>1) Split the list into three sub-lists: Today, Maybe, + Never.
>   The Today list was the people I was willing to make ammends to: Today.
>   The Maybe list was those I might make ammends to, if I wanted to.
>   The Never list was the assholes who didn't deserve an ammends
>    EVERR!!!.
     ^^^^^ 
      
I have never taken step eight, so I am probably wrong.  But isn't step 8's
purpose to resolve conficts with exactly these people?

Mark
From: enigma@netcom.Netcom.COM (Enigma)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Step Eight
Date: 30 Aug 92 16:27:36 GMT
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Service

In article <Aug30.091727.1772@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> maxwell@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Mark Story) writes:

>Newsgroups: alt.recovery
>Path: netcom.com!csus.edu!wupost!sdd.hp.com!cs.utexas.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!yuma!lamar!maxwell
>From: maxwell@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Mark Story)
>Sender: news@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU (News Account)
>Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 09:17:27 GMT
>References: <1992Aug25.161017.7378@Cadence.COM>
>Nntp-Posting-Host: lamar.acns.colostate.edu
>Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO  80523
>Lines: 17

>In article <1992Aug25.161017.7378@Cadence.COM> jerpseth@sd.cadence.com (James Jerpseth) writes:
>>When I first saw step 8, I freaked! All of them, TODAY!
>>
>>Well, my sponsor gave me a good piece of advice:
>>
>>1) Split the list into three sub-lists: Today, Maybe, + Never.
>>   The Today list was the people I was willing to make ammends to: Today.
>>   The Maybe list was those I might make ammends to, if I wanted to.
>>   The Never list was the assholes who didn't deserve an ammends
>>    EVERR!!!.
	^^^^^ 

>I have never taken step eight, so I am probably wrong.  But isn't step 8's
>purpose to resolve conficts with exactly these people?


Well, it's purpose is to become *willing* to resolve conflicts with 
exactly those people.  I'm working on step eight now, and it seems
an impossible task.  Of course, each of the steps has seemed pretty
impossible as I got to them (except for six and seven - I had so much
momentum built up from trying to get through four and five that it
carried me right through.  Four and five were *hard*).

But anyway, I'm down to the last person on the list.  I really want
to become willing to make amends to him, but every time I think about
it all I can think of is the harm he's done and how much I hate his
guts.   That's why I sympathize with the previous poster who 
mentioned a "Never" list.  I'd *like* to put this guy on a Never list,
but I made up my mind to work my way through all twelve steps, no
matter what it took.  That's what taking step three *means*, for me
at least.  But I'm going to have to turn this one over to my HP, as
I don't seem to be able to manage it unaided.

-- 
Holly McGrath   <enigma@netcom.com> 
1803 Mission Street, #339          
Santa Cruz, CA 95060              
(408) 479-4072  (voice mail)     
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: sanders@cwis.unomaha.edu (Sue Sanders)
Subject: Re: let's not challenge differing opinions  (was: Richard ...)
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 12:50:32 GMT

The amusing thing I find about your post, r., is that in one breath you
suggest to someone that they are wrong to challenge someone else's idea's.
Isn't that what you have just done?  Just curious???

Deversity makes AA the program I love.  Just because I wouldn't want John/Jane
Does program doesn't mean it doesn't work for them.  Also, I have suggested to
a few people that maybe that don't need AA.  If someone really needs the 
program it will be here.

Sue

Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: maxwell@lamar.ColoState.EDU (Mark Story)
Subject: Hello
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1992 18:17:39 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO  80523

Just wanted to say that I lost my list addresses to the various people I was
mailing here.  I accidentally erased the files of addresses.  

So, if you wish to continue corresponding with me, could you mail me?

Mark

Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: dianat@redsun.pps.rain.com (Diana Thompson)
Subject: Jim Puckett
Organization: Portland Public Schools, Portland Or.
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 23:06:58 GMT

Just wanted to know if anyone has heard from Jim given all of the
problems in Florida.

	-Diana

-- 
***********************************************************************
Diana Thompson				     dianat@redsun.pps.rain.com
Portland Public Schools				(usual disclaimer here)
*    ************************************************************     *
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: aljones@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Alice L Jones)
Subject: Re: AA beliefs?
Organization: The Ohio State University
Distribution: alt
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 13:05:00 GMT

"Take what you can, and leave the rest."

Those were the first words of advice I ever heard in an AA meeting, and I
think they are still the best.  I don't agree with everything that the Big Book
says about my behavior disorder/disease/psychosis or whatever else anyone else
wants to call it.  Nor do I agree with the descriptions of a "higher power"
that others in group meetings express.  There are a lot of things that I have
encountered in AA/OA meetings and literature that I don't accept as my own
truth.

But that is one of the beauties of the program, in my opinion.  The program
does not demand that I accept "its truth", but rather that I engage upon a
personal journey to identify "my truth."

I just ask to keep my heart and my mind open, so when "my truth" comes along, I
am wise enough and aware enough to recognize it.
From: mdcsc!ah@uunet.UU.NET (Alexander Herrera)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Co-founder's examples
Date: 31 Aug 1992 15:12:49 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

Naomi writes:

> Just recently a group of us were discussing Bill & Bob's
> (ok, mostly Bill's) "failures" -- the drug trips, his
> ongoing problem with adultery, depression, etc.

I want to correct a misunderstanding. I am not an apologist for Bill,
and I was not aware that he was an adulterer while sober. However, the
"drug trips" remark gives an inaccurate protrayal of Bill as if he were
a craven drug addict looking for a way to beat the "sobriety thing"
without drinking. That idea is absolutely false. (I doubt you meant to
do that, but I wanted to clear this up.)

Come back with me now to a time long ago, when men were men, women
didn't burn their bras (they actually wore them!), and politics was
considered an honest profession. Come back...back...back to the time
when drugs were legal, when heroin was a brand new product put out by
the Bayer company (You know...the asprin guys), and LSD was considered
a clinical medicine. Experiments were still being done on this
non-addictive (oops!) drug and it was considered a possiblity that such
a drug might induce a spiritual experience.

A method for producing such an experience was known to Bill. He knew of
it because he read William James' _Varieties of Religious Experience_
where WJ outlines a spritual awakening being produced with ether. Bill
thought that if he could find a way to produce such an experience in
AA'ers he could save many lives. It was a time when alcoholism was in
it's experimental stage. They were willing to risk their lives to make
gains in understanding alcoholism. One of my friends was part of an
experiment where she took a drink so doctors could see how it was
metabolized.

So the drug induced spiritual experience didn't work. Oh well...

Alex Herrera
uunet!mdcsc!ah

Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: weiss872@snake.cs.uidaho.edu (Phil Weiss)
Subject: Re: step eight         
Organization: University of Idaho CS Dept.
Reply-To: weiss@leopard.cs.uidaho.edu
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 23:54:51 GMT
X-Posted-From: potlatch.cs.uidaho.edu
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In Alt.recovery, daalrutz@violet.uwaterloo.ca (deb alrutz) writes:
|> Hi Phil
|> a little voice went off in me when you wrote tell me if I'm doing anything
|> wrong and it made me think that you might want to add yourself to the list as
|> it may be harmful to assume you might be wrong;-
|> progress not perfection


I'm don't agree with making amends to myself.  Making amends is
not about saying "I'm sorry."  It's about changing behavior.
It is about making myself useful to God and my fellows.

Too often I see people take months (and longer) making amends
to themselves, trying to make themselves feel better.

I really don't have anything against itin principle, but all the
people in meetings I go to that talk about making amends to themselves,
well, I do not want what they got.

Phil.
From: rdh@Veritas.COM (Robert Hartman)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: let's not challenge differing opinions  (was: Richard ...)
Date: 3 Sep 92 21:12:06 GMT
Organization: VERITAS Software

In article <2AA597CB.3979@news.service.uci.edu> altshule@skid.ps.uci.edu (Eric
...) writes:
> ...
> While I am not taking sides, I think
> AA should be defined.  The ORIGINAL phrase 'Alcoholics Anonymous' was
> the title of the book, 'Alcoholics Anonymous', not the organization.
> The name for the organization was taken from the book, not the other
> way around. ...

It sure sounds like you are taking sides.

> Richard ... states:
>>Just to be clear, I'm not opposed to the existence of AA, I'm just
>>saying its methods and tenets are helpful for some problem drinkers
>>and unhelpful or worse for others.

> Richard (and anyone else), if you are in recovery, I would bet that
> your opinion is in the minority.

Nevertheless, his opinion is his opinion, and I feel it should be
respected as such.  I don't appreciate seeing someone's name in the
Subject line as if it were some sort of challenge.  That both breaks
what semblance of anonymity this group affords, and appears to be hostile.
The traffic here isn't such that Richard would be likely to miss your
article if he's still reading the newsgroup.

Can I suggest that we avoid challenging people who express opinions
that differ from our own?  Arguing over who has the better program isn't
the point of this newsgroup.

> The way I understand it, AA has 12
> methods (steps), 12 traditions, and a singleness of purpose.
> "Alcoholics Anonymous has but one purpose -one objective only- to help
> other alcoholics to recover from their illness" -Bill Wilson, Address
> to the Medical Society, New York, NY, 1944.  Upon review of the methods
> and tenents of AA (as stated in the book),  I see nothing that would be
> unhelpful to an alcoholic desiring to recover from his illness.  If you
> would, please clarify which tenents and methods you mean.

In the Al-Anon suggested readings, crosstalk is defined as "asking
direct questions for clarification."  I would like to ask that we not
indulge in this type of crosstalk.  AA does not need to be defended, and
besides, the literature itself says that AA may not be for everyone.
Those other people, for whom AA may not work, belong here just as much
as you do.

Traditionally, AA is for those for whom nothing else has worked.  If
something easier can work for someone else, why should that person have
to do it the hard way?  AA will still be there if the easier ways don't
work out.

>                                 Eric ...
>
> P.S. For the record, I am in recovery.  I base my program heavily on
> the book and what the medical community has to say about the disease of
> Alcoholism.

Good for you.  I'm glad you're working your program and that you have
confidence in it.  Let's not work Richard's program for him, whatever
it may happen to be.  OK?

-r
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: jerpseth@sd.cadence.com (James Jerpseth)
Subject: RE: Step Eight
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, San Diego Center
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 16:10:17 GMT

When I first saw step 8, I freaked! All of them, TODAY!

Well, my sponsor gave me a good piece of advice:

1) Split the list into three sub-lists: Today, Maybe, + Never.
   The Today list was the people I was willing to make ammends to: Today.
   The Maybe list was those I might make ammends to, if I wanted to.
   The Never list was the assholes who didn't deserve an ammends
    EVERR!!!.

2) We then sat down with my Today list and went through them
   one by one to determine if the ammends would hurt them or another --
   I felt bad at this point because my sponsor had no consideration
   for my getting hurt or how difficult the ammends would be to me
   emotionally. (BTW -- I'm not just as hard on my sponsees.)
   Then we figutred out how I would make the ammends (in person, by phone,
    with a letter, etc...).

3) I did about 75% of the Today list when my sponsor had me re-do
   my lists. Some of the Maybe people moved to the Today list
   and some of the Never people moved to the Maybe list.
   And I had to add some new ammends to the Today list from my
   annual in-depth Step 10.

I've been doing this now for about 4 years and it seems to work.
Some folks are still on the Never list but I call the progress
not perfection rule into play on those folks -- maybe someday I'll
grow spiritually enough to not have a Never list (wouldn't that be
nice) but until then I'll plug away on the Todays and Maybes ammends
since I know its better to be in action than not.

James aka jerpseth@sd.cadence.com


-- 
!  SIN BOLDLY (that God's grace may be bolder still) -- Martin Luther
!
! "The views expressed are neither those of Cadence or its Managment
!   (probably since I'm not certain they know I exist).
From: moiram@sacajawea.csc.ti.com (Moira Mallison)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: RE: Allen & Zidora
Date: 26 Aug 92 15:09:16 GMT
Reply-To: moiram@csc.ti.com
Distribution: alt
Organization: Computer Science Lab, Texas Instruments

>> 
>> my s.o.'s son is sexually
>> molested on a daily basis by the stepfather.  The courts said that
>> because there is no proof of penile penetration or std's of the
>> boy's penis, they won't do anything.


This differs on a state-by-state basis.  My sister's SO is a convicted
child molester; this came out a couple months after she started dating him.
It was determined that he had not molested my niece or nephew, although there
had been some "inappropriate behavior".  He was not allowed to have any
contact with them for several months, while he and my sister  both participated
in therapy (why she didn't just dump the guy is a separate question that has
to do with her co-dependency and relationship addications), and he submitted
to numerous polygraph tests about his desire to molest again.  (The original
(he says only) incident was 12 years ago).  Now, 16 months later, he can
still only be with the kids when there is another adult present.

Just another data point.

Moira
From: carnes@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Richard Carnes)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Apologies
Date: 4 Sep 92 13:15:57 GMT
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor

In article <2AA6A96F.13016@news.service.uci.edu> altshule@skid.ps.uci.edu (Eric Altshuler) writes:

>I am new on the group and would like to publicly apologize for
>breaking someones anonimity.  

No apology is necessary, since I haven't tried to conceal my identity.
However, I don't care to see my name in subject lines, a practice
which is usually associated with flaming.  (Do learn how to use your
editor to put a linefeed at the end of a line of text; your postings
have gotten a bit garbled in transmission.)

Richard Carnes
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: carnes@quip.eecs.umich.edu (Richard Carnes)
Subject: Alcoholism (was: Richard Carnes (was: Alcoholism))
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 21:45:33 GMT

In article <1992Aug31.204614.14371@ctr.columbia.edu> weiss@leopard.cs.uidaho.edu writes:

>I keep reading all this stuff you are posting, Richard, where you
>rail against AA, and tell us that there are other methods of
>recovery.

Just to be clear, I'm not opposed to the existence of AA, I'm just
saying its methods and tenets are helpful for some problem drinkers
and unhelpful or worse for others.

>All well and good.
>
>But why do you keep on filling up these (very) lengthy posts with
>quotes from books and opinions from "experts" and studies?
>
>Where is your own experience?

Some of us just prefer not to reveal publicly our personal histories
and circumstances, although I admire the people who are willing to do
so.  Perhaps I should have posted anonymously, but what's done is
done.  Anyway, this isn't "Geraldo" or "Donahue".

I think we need to hear about *both* personal experiences and the
research in order to understand addiction and recovery.  Hardly
anybody else seems to talking about the scientific angle, so I'm just
redressing the balance.  In fact, the large amount of research that
has been done on addiction seems to be just about nonexistent as far
as alt.recovery is concerned, to judge by the postings I have seen
(which may be unfair).

Sorry if my postings are longer than some attention spans.  But you
don't have to read everything I post.  I guarantee you won't be tested
on the material.

Richard
From: rons@soul.tv.tek.com (Ron Selberg)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Time to Gloat
Date: 1 Sep 92 19:37:30 GMT
Organization: Tektronix TV Products

Gloat on! Or more important, be very thankfull. We all want to hear about
birthdays. I know it continues to give me hope. If someone else can do it,
so can I. Congradulations! Go ahead and give yourself a pat on the back. Did
ya do it? Now, back to one day at a time. 

By the way gang, I'm still alive and kicking! Still doing sobriety and life,
one day at a time. Wish life could be a little easier but hey, it's worth it.

*hugs*
RON
From: moy@acf3.NYU.EDU (Gloria J. Moy,N.DORM C3,(212)9983456,)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Baby Birthday!
Date: 26 Aug 92 14:28:00 GMT
Organization: New York University


 Diana,

	Happy Birthday. Thanks for being there to share with us.

-gloria
From: rdh@Veritas.COM (Robert Hartman)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: Step Nine
Date: 3 Sep 92 20:47:04 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: VERITAS Software

In article <1992Sep2.182510.18970@news.media.mit.edu> ben@media.mit.edu (Benjamin Kline Lowengard) writes:
>>> Step Nine:  Made direct amends to such people wherever possible except
>>> when to do so would injure them or others.
>>
>This is interesting..does step 9 mean that my ex-girlfriend(who dumped me
>in the midst of step 4(OA)) will actually try to make amends? 


Not necessarily.  Depends on if in her view and that of her sponsor an
attempt to make amends might further injure you.  

For instance, if there was a fear that contacting you might feed an
obsession or incite false hopes, she might not want to.  Also, it might
be years before she's ready for a ninth step.

If I could make a suggestion, I don't think I'd expect anything of her
one way or the other.  Just because someone I have feelings for is working
a program, that doesn't mean that it will work out better for me.

-r