HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: witr@rwwa.COM (Robert Withrow)
Subject: Re: Any tips for a pilot-to-be?
Reply-To: witr@rwwa.com
Organization: R.W. Withrow Associates
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 02:44:42 GMT

In article <1993Jan11.215346.10896@netcom.com>,
 hchong@netcom.com (Hoi Chong) writes:

Look, take a deep breath and try not to get so defensive...

| From the beginning I had said that it was accidental,

And from the beginning no one said you flew into the cloud on purpose.

> and I learned from it (stay away from cloud).

And what some of us were wondering is *why* it took you till your
solo cross-countrys to learn that particular lesson.  Some people
hypothesized that this was due to a failure in your training.

| accusing me of [...] "flying unsafely" 

Come now.  Surely you aren't claiming that at that moment you were
flying ``safely'' are you?

| I had said that it was accidental [...]

But if you had nailed some inocent IFR pilot flying in that cloud, or
stall/spun into a playground, I rather doubt that the victims would
say ``Oh well.  It was just an accident.''

The purpose of flight training is to reduce the incidence of ``accidents''
like these to a very small number.  Otherwise people would learn to fly
by trial and error (and without instruction) and the airplaine industry
wouldn't be in a slump.  To those concerned with aviation safety, a
story like yours raises a red-flag.  People ask ``in what way did
the flight training system fail, so that this accident happened?''  The
theory is that a correctly functioning flight training system would not
have allowed you to fly into that cloud.

| I do not expected to [...] have my instructor ability called into question.

That is the way the system works.  Student pilots should not fly into
clouds.  When a student pilot flys into a cloud, something is wrong.
We assume the student does what he/she was taught, or doesn't do what
he/she wasn't taught.  Thus we wonder what the instructor did or didn't
do that resulted in the student flying into the cloud.  Perhaps it doesn't
seem fair to you, but that is the way it works.

| Again and again you and your supporters implied that I had not learned
| from the incident, where is your proof?

What is being question is not whether you ``learned from the incident'',
but rather *what* you learned.  If you hit your thumb with a hammer,
you might say ``Gee.  I just learned not to hit my thumb with a hammer!'',
but a better lesson would probably be ``I just learned that, before
I begin to swing a hammer, I'm going to check to be sure there is no
way that my thumb, my nose, or my dog is going to be hit by the hammer
or by the nail, should it go flying off into space.'' or something like
that.  When you say ``I learned not to fly into a cloud'', we ask ``how
are you going to do that?''.  Quite often you have to back up and take
a broader look to learn the real lessons...

-- 
 Robert Withrow, Tel: +1 617 598 4480, Fax: +1 617 598 4430, Net: witr@rwwa.COM
 R.W. Withrow Associates, 21 Railroad Ave, Swampscott MA 01907-1821 USA
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
From: wd@cs.tu-berlin.de (Wolfgang Diestelkamp)
Subject: Re: AM Stations 4 ADF
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
	<8fIMMAO00WBK01OuRt@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 10:50:13 GMT


To make a long story short, what I was saying was:
*Don't rely on a commercial AM station unless it is published as
navigation aid*,
which, as I see, you never did.
-- 
Wolfgang Diestelkamp
wd@cs.tu-berlin.de
wolfgang@first.gmd.de

Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
From: masys@nlm.nih.gov (Dr. Daniel R. Masys)
Subject: Re: Any tips for a pilot-to-be?
Organization: National Library of Medicine
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 17:34:43 GMT

In article <1993Jan12.151532.7914@odin.corp.sgi.com>
>(Hoi Chong) writes:
>>The forcast
>>called for no cloud at that level, and I double-checked with the forcaster 
>>if it was all right to do VFR x-country solo.

Ah, now here's a chance for the fledgling pilot to learn two of Richard
Collins' Principles-To-Fly-By:

1. "Remember, a forecast is a guess, not a promise."

and one which takes on increasing importance as a decision factor
when a pilot routinely flies long cross countries:

2. "When the Winds Aloft forecast is seriously in error, everything else
   about a forecast is likely to be wrong, too." (with special attention
   to FT - Terminal Forecasts.  i.e., a high probability that what you
   see [or can't see] out the window when you arrive at your destination
   airport is linked to how badly NWS missed the winds aloft).

Dan Masys
masys@nlm.nih.gov

Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
From: wd@cs.tu-berlin.de (Wolfgang Diestelkamp)
Subject: Re: AM Stations 4 ADF
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 10:19:57 GMT


[ Robert asks for a list of AM stations for ADF use ]

There has been some discussion about this topic on rec.avaition a while
ago, and I would urge you to consider at least the following:

These stations are not certified for navigational use for a couple of reasons,
some of them being:

- You cannot reliably identify a station
- there location can be changed without notice
- they do (may) not have monitors for the signal
- they do not necessarily have an instant backup
- etc, etc ...

So while you may use them on a clear VFR flight to listen to that
football game, and maybe tripel-check your position, you can't really
use them for navigation.

On the other hand, there are some countries (was that iceland ?, and
some African countries), where some stations are *officially published*
as navaids and may thus be used.

-- 
Wolfgang Diestelkamp
wd@cs.tu-berlin.de
wolfgang@first.gmd.de

Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
From: stephens@access.digex.com (John Stephens)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Re: AM Stations 4 ADF
Date: 11 Jan 1993 21:01:41 GMT
Organization: Severn Companies, Inc., Lanham, MD 20706
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In article <16036009@bailey.UUCP|..  ben@bailey.UUCP (Ben Bailey) writes:
|.. 
|.. "Sporty's Pilot Shop" 1-800-543-8633 (1-800-LIFTOFF), fax 513-732-6560 
|.. has a book that they sell that should help you.  (page 52 of 
|.. catalogue Code 790):
|.. 
|.. 	"ADF Directory & Manual. M716A...$10.00, Cardin
|.. 	How to ge the most out of your ADF.  Also includes
|.. 	a complete listing of all AM broadcast stations in
|.. 	the U.S. and Canada, plus a listing of the toll free
|.. 	FSS telephone numbers in the USA.
|.. 
|.. Hope this helps,
|.. 


There is a list of all AM radio stations above 50,000 watts
available on Compuserve. AVSIG forum, LIB6, 50KW.LIS

The file MIN5KW.lis contains a much longer list of stations
greater than 5 KW.


Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
From: woof@fc.hp.com (Steve Wolf)
Subject: Re: Any tips for a pilot-to-be?
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 00:31:07 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Fort Collins Site
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.8 PL6]

Stormwind (amazon@sgi.com) wrote:

> we were already halfway through the turn 
> by the time stockton warned us of traffic 
> at 1 mile.

I've noticed this alot, and consequently don't rely heavily on ATC
traffic advisories.  Most recently, I was in the Denver TCA on 12/31 and
watched a twin approach us and pass 1/2-mile to our right at our
altitude.  As the twin passed us, Approach called traffic 12 o'clock and
1 mile.  I have no idea if the twin pilot saw me or not.

So another tip for students -- "see and avoid" is your responsibility,
not Air Traffic Control's.  Keep those eyes outside the cockpit most of
the time, just like when you're driving a car.

We can all fly due to the Big Sky, Little Airplane theory (that is, lots
of little airplanes can fit in a big sky without running into each other
very often).  ATC pays much more attention to what's around you when
you're flying on an instrument flight plan than when you're VFR.  You
need to be especially vigilant around airplane magnets, like VORs,
mountain passes, and airports.

Five days after getting my Instrument rating, I flew from Colorado into
the LA Basin IFR.  ATC was calling me out to other traffic, but never
had to bother me.  I saw most of the other traffic, but, unlike VFR
traffic advisories, ATC was required to thread me through empty air.  My
head was still on a swivel, and I still can't imagine flying in the LA
area VFR!

Obligatory unrelated cloud anecdote:  DO NOT fly above the clouds as a
VFR pilot if coverage is any more than about 25% -- you may not be able
to get down again legally.  And if you get into such trouble anyway,
TELL SOMEBODY (like Minneapolis Center, for example :-)!  Scared me into
starting immediately on my Instrument rating.

Flying above the clouds VFR is illegal in Canada.  It's merely against
common sense in the US.

--
Steve Wolf
Hewlett-Packard				UUCP: hplabs!fc.hp.com!woof
Fort Collins, CO			ARPA: woof@fc.hp.com
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
From: wd@cs.tu-berlin.de (Wolfgang Diestelkamp)
Subject: Re: Any tips for a pilot-to-be?
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
	<1993Jan12.051935.23731@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 11:29:30 GMT

In article <1993Jan12.051935.23731@netcom.com> hchong@netcom.com (Hoi Chong) writes:

> Now Mr Ginsberg just have to have the last word.  Well, hopefully these 
> are mine.

and later:

> Now since my instructor is not to blame, and I made a couple of mistakes
> as a student but did the best I could to recover, I wonder who Mr Ginsberg
> is going to blame to get his last word in. 

So I'll save Matt from having to have the last word this time:

> First of all the incident has nothing to do with my instructor.  The forcast
> called for no cloud at that level, and I double-checked with the forcaster 
> if it was all right to do VFR x-country solo.  The forcaster endorsed the idea
> enthusistically.  My instructor don't have bionic eyes, he cannot see 
> 50 miles, can he?  Can any of you?  He signed me off for x-country solo.

As you were a student, sure it had to do with your instructor. Had he had
"bionic eyes" he would certainly not have let you go on this trip. But as
he should know that he does not have bionic eyes, he should also know
that you have to take a forecast with a grain of salt, and he should have made
you aware of this.

> Now if you said that he did not bring me up to experience cloud before 
> x-country solo, that is another thing.  Does every instructor bring his
> or her student up to experience cloud before signing off for x-country solo?
> Let me know because I have not heard it before.

If by "experience cloud" you mean fly into a cloud, definetely no !
If you mean, go close enough to a cloud to get a feeling, definetely yes.

> Now Mr Ginsberg accused me of (1) inability to determine distance from
> cloud.  As Mr Stormwind said, cloud is not a solid object, difficult
> to tell when it begins, when it ends.  If it is hard for Mr Stormwind
> (an authority Mr Ginsberg admitted listening to), then I guess it is more
> difficult for a student pilot with no experience with cloud.  As for 
> (2) over-reliance on forcast, well, I don't have bionic eyes, maybe 
> someone else has.  (3) my failure to respond appropriately to cloud, 
> as Mr Ginsberg accused, I don't think so.  First thing I did was 
> to stablize the plane, and then turn 180, like the book said.  

To me it seems you forgot to stabilize the aircraft first: you kept climbing
and later descended in the cloud, after the 180. The book says, if
at all necessary, try a *level* 180.

> (4) terrain management? I think I did the best at the time.  
> If I had descend as Mr Ginsberg suggested, I would have hit the 
> mountain side in front.

This makes the situation even worse. I conclude that the top of the
mountain was obscured. Why did you continue then ?
It's all a question of putting things into a context and understanding
the whole situation to make qualified decisions, and it seems your
instructor had not sufficiently taught this to you.

-- 
Wolfgang Diestelkamp
wd@cs.tu-berlin.de
wolfgang@first.gmd.de
From: davea@col.hp.com (Dave Allen)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: Re: Any tips for a pilot-to-be?
Date: 7 Jan 1993 20:08:44 GMT
Organization: HP Colorado Springs Division
NNTP-Posting-Host: qadata.col.hp.com

hchong@netcom.com (Hoi Chong) writes:
> Of course, flying a plane is 1000 times different than drive a car.  First
> off your body is going to feel funny regardless of how many thousand 
> hours as a pilot. ...
> the training.  I think I am going to end up with at least 60 [hours] ...

Eh? How many thousand-hour pilots did you interview to reach this conclusion?
This is certainly counter to my experience. I daresay you'll be changing your
own mind after you get 100 or 200 hours.

> 4) wind turbulance flipping the airplane around (I had the fear of the
>    172 being flipped over for a while, until I went into cloud accidentally
>    during a x-cross solo attempt, the way the instrument went crazy,
>    I never fear anything else in the air after that... maybe just a puff 
>    of cloud here and there) 

Do I believe my eyes? On the one hand, most turbulence will not invert a
C-172. On the other hand, there IS turbulence which WILL, and which can and
should be avoided. I would hope for your sake and your passengers' that you
would be MORE afraid (not less) after an incident like this. Part of learning
to fly is learning what not to be afraid of, and what TO be afraid of (and
avoid). A pilot who's not afraid of anything is a scary thing indeed.

dave allen - Fly because you love it.
From: ulan@cbl.umd.edu (Robert Ulanowicz)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: AM Stations 4 ADF
Date: 9 Jan 1993 15:15:53 -0500
Organization: University of Maryland, Chesapeake Biological Laboratory
NNTP-Posting-Host: cbl.umd.edu
Summary: Request for information on obtaining list of AM stations to use for nav
Keywords: Aviation Navigation FCC

Greetings to All!

    This is my first posting on this group. 

   I was wondering if anyone could help me locate a list of AM stations
around the country to use for ADF navigation. Ideally, I'm looking for
something like the ham ftp that allows one to download stations by state
or city. 

   I've really gotten addicted to navigating via ADF; but there are so few
NDB's around. Then there are all those AM stations that I might be able to
use, but simply don't know about!

   Any help would be appreciated. I'm looking forward to reading the mail
here!

Bob Ulanowicz, K3IIZ
ulan@cbl.umd.edu
From: robg@apple.com (Rob Griffiths)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: So, you wanna be an ATP??
Date: 11 Jan 93 22:40:00 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.

The following story is courtesy of David Caldwell, ex flight instructor
of both myself, and Frank Stutzman (franks@synoptics.com).  Frank is
temporarily unable to post, so I volunteered to post this for him.  David
had just accepted a job with a commuter in the LA area, and this is is
description of the flight training in a Beech 1900.

Makes for some interesting reading.

-rob.

============

Hi Frank, David Caldwell here.  I'm over at 3Com visiting with Greg
[David's brother. -ed], I haven't seen him in about three weeks.  I did
accept the job at Alpha Air in L.A. and I've been in flight training and
ground school for the past four weeks.

The company started out with about twenty guys in ground school and only
trained four of us in the airplane so far, so I was happy to make the
cut.  Ground school is ground school, but the flight training was a blast.

My first flight consisted of an IFR departure out of LAX, right crosswind
to right base to the Burbank ILS.  At 240 knots it only takes 7 min from
wheels up to wheels down.  This is where the fun began.  ATC cancels the
approach clearance and vectors me for a different runway with a visual
behind a Southwest 737.  On short final the training captain requests a
go around with vectors to the Van Nuys ILS, about 4 minutes away.  On the
downwind leg he fails an engine for a single engine ILS to a missed
approach on one engine.

On the climbout I get both engines and vectors for the Van Nuys LDA
approach, with about 4 minutes for the approach.  Halfway through the
approach ATC cancels the approach clearance and we continue back to
Burbank for another ILS.  Guess what?  They cancel that approch halfway
down for traffic sequence and back to vectors for the Oxnard VOR 25
approach own nav.  I get another engine failure on the approach and
continue to a single engine landing.  All this in about 25 minutes.

Did some pattern work which included aborted takeoffs, engine failures at
rotation and single engine circle to landing with no flaps; the 
reference speed  is 122 konts on final!  I was literally dripping with
sweat by now.  We then picked up an IFR departure to LAX and went home at
250 knots to a five mile final for traffic flow and finished up with a 
normal landing.

On my second flight it was just airwork with stalls and steep turns. 
Then a checkride with the feds after only 3 hours in the plane which
included all of the above in 2 hours.  I passed!  

Take off rotation speed with flaps ten is 102 knots with best rate of
climb at 135 knots for 2700 feet a min in the climb at a light weight. 
Emergency descents at 180 with the gear and flaps ten is 5000 - 6000 feet
a min. quite a roller coaster ride.  That's all for now...

--
Rob Griffiths    "And the future will be better tomorrow" - Dan Quayle
robg@apple.com   PP-ASEL-IA, looking for clouds .... B52s/REM/Erasure!
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
From: burke@tss.com (Jim Burke)
Subject: Frost Accumulation Summary
Reply-To: burke@tss.com (Jim Burke)
Organization: Teknekron Software Systems. Inc.
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 17:22:12 GMT


Well, I really appreciate all the discussion about frost accumulation on
wings.  I asked the original question.  It appears that I have gotten 
away with doing something that most people consider fairly dangerous.  
After discussing the issue with a CFI friend (4000 hours, FAA gold) and
reading through what has been written here, I've personally decided not
to do it again.  While I have not experienced any ill effects from taking
off with 1/8" of smoothed frost on the wings of my 172, I believe this is
because the 172 is tamer than many other airplanes in terms of it stall
characteristics.  In fact, I may have been close to the edge in terms of
wing performance and not even known it.  I don't think so, but since I
prefer to fly conservatively for most things (fuel management, weather,
etc.), I'd prefer not to take this risk in the future.  Thanks again
to everyone who commented.

-- 
***********************************************************************
 Jim Burke	"Life is uncertain - eat dessert first!"
 Teknekron Software Systems		... burke@tss.com
 phone:(415) 617-2432			... uunet!tekbspa!burke
From: dick.zeitlin%acc1bbs@ssr.com (Dick Zeitlin) 
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
Subject: AM Stations 4 ADF
Date: 10 Jan 93 19:11:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Advanced Computer Concepts BBS, New Rochelle, NY 914-654-1981
Reply-To: dick.zeitlin%acc1bbs@ssr.com (Dick Zeitlin) 

RU> .   I was wondering if anyone could help me locate a list of AM stations
  > .around the country to use for ADF navigation. Ideally, I'm looking for
  > .something like the ham ftp that allows one to download stations by state
  > .or city.

The problem is that the locations given in most lists are by city, but
the actual antenna location is generally not within the city limits.
So, while you might do some long range nav. to get to the general area,
the MW stations won't be of much help unless they're charted.  (Some
are...)  In addition, few AM stations are "clear channel," so unless you
hear an ident, you may be picking up an entirely different station than
you intend.

That said, find someone that had Jepp J-Aid service, and kept the US-50x
pages from the Radio Aids section.  Jepp used to list commercial
broadcast stations, just for the purpose you desire, but stopped around
'88.

        D/
---
 . QMPro 1.0 41-3345 . Bring back A-N airways!!    Dick.Zeitlin%acc1bbs@ssr.com
                            
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
From: masys@nlm.nih.gov (Dr. Daniel R. Masys)
Subject: Re: Frost Accumulation Summary
Organization: National Library of Medicine
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 93 13:01:13 GMT

In article <3260@contex.contex.com> brian@porky.contex.com (Brian Love) writes:
>
>In what was close to a "Never Again" scenario, I put down in Du Bois, PA
>(DUJ) this past Christmas day with about 1/4" of ice on the leading edges.

Hey Brian, you must have punched through the same Alberta Clipper that
I did on Christmas morning.  I was westbound over the eastern part of
Ohio, bucking those smooth 50kt headwinds when it really hit the fan
(literally).  Conditions went from a high thin overcast to a white out
with blowing snow and moderate to severe turbulence in just a few
minutes.  It was the first time I ever shot an ILS (into Columbus CMH)
with 130kts IAS and a groundspeed of 65kts; took almost 25 minutes to
complete the approach.  I was pleased to be on the ground; that Christmas
flight made the 10-worst-ever list for 22 years of flying.

Dan Masys
masys@nlm.nih.gov'


Newsgroups: rec.aviation.piloting
From: hchong@netcom.com (Hoi Chong)
Subject: Re: Any tips for a pilot-to-be?
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 16:29:53 GMT

From article <tomcat.726293416@cwis>, by tomcat@cwis.unomaha.edu (Jeffrey S. Jo):
> Greetings!  Well, like the subject says, any tips for someone who will soon
> begin flight training in a fixed wing aircraft?  Most probably a Cessna 152..
> of course.  What kind of tips?  Oh, anything to help me prepare for training.
> Email or post them here.  Thanks!

Start in spring.  Weather can become a hussel unless you are very lucky.
I started in the summer and did not realize that weather will be a factor
until late fall, when I had to reschedule my x-country solo several times.
To demonstrate how severe that can be, I STILL had not done my x-country
solo.

Also, NEVER give up (unless your wallet say so and you would have to 
rob a bank to continue).  There were several time during my training
that I seriously consider giving up for various reasons (like getting
air-sick and thought maybe my body is not suitable for flying small plane).
Just keep going.

My reasons for wanting to give up at times were:
1) head-clamp effect of the headset (I got a $200 headset that don't feel
   a thing after that - Telex 3000)
2) airsick (get used to it, body will adjust)
3) steep-turn make my body go "you are not suppose to do that" 
   (get used to it) 
4) wind turbulance flipping the airplane around (I had the fear of the
   172 being flipped over for a while, until I went into cloud accidentally
   during a x-cross solo attempt, the way the instrument went crazy,
   I never fear anything else in the air after that... maybe just a puff 
   of cloud here and there) 
5) cost of flying, mine is about $600 a month with 2 to 3 hours flying
   per week plus ground instruction (figure I already put more than $2000
   in, may as well continue) 

Some members of the flying class can be over-serious (or "square") 
sometimes, but you have to remember that it takes a lot of discipline 
to fly an airplane.  If one is not disciplined, he (or she) can have
his ticket yanked, or worse off as in most cases have a crash.  So you
will find that there are not too many "jokers" around the GA terminals. 

Of course, flying a plane is 1000 times different than drive a car.  First
off your body is going to feel funny regardless of how many thousand 
hours as a pilot.  Also, you cannot stop the plane in midair to think what
you should do next (like we pull off to the side of the highway to check
the map).  If the plane engine quit (though seldom happen with strict FAA
regulartions), you cannot just pull off the road.

You think you are good enough to pass after 40 hours.  No, I have seen
excellent students finishing after 80 hours, and most never did finish
the training.  I think I am going to end up with at least 60, if not even
80 hours (mine is 172, hence $60 x 80 = $4800).

And forget about helicopter since an experienced pilot said he couldn't
get the private license for less than $10,000. 

Good luck.