HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: heath@athena.cs.uga.edu (Terrance Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: The Literary Canon
Date: 13 Aug 92 17:19:55 GMT
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens

In article <tmccarth.713673369@sfu.ca> tmccarth@fraser.sfu.ca (Teresa Marie McCarthy) writes:
>
>
>
>This is what I was looking for!  Although the discussion on writers that have 
>been excluded from the canon is very interesting, I was more interested in 
>an alternative.  I think a "horizontal" method of looking at literature is
>interesting.
>
>I'm also glad that the political nature of the canon has been acknowledged 
>in this discussion.  It isn't *canon-bashing* that brings a political 
>agenda into literature, but the creation of the canon itself.


I agree. Those who are currently challenging the inflexibility of the
current canon are usually accused of ascribing contemporary political
ideals to age old universal "standards", as if there are no political
ideas which have been with us since time immemorial and which ought
not be challenged.  The canon is, by nature, political in terms of
those works and authors included and those excluded. If inclusion and
exclusion are not wholly based upon the political foundation of the
very idea of a canon, then they are at least significantly affected by
such a foundation.


-- 
"Black men loving black men is THE revolutionary act!"
			-Joseph Beam_
Terrance Heath 
heath@athena.cs.uga.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: jchokey@leland.Stanford.EDU (James Alexander Chokey)
Subject: Re: I need a word
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 92 05:11:55 GMT

In article <1992Aug18.021437.18935@morrow.stanford.edu> francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir) writes:
>JAREA@UKCC.UKY.EDU writes:
>
>	I always thought Synecdoche was a city in New York State
> 
>That may be, but there are two Notasynecdoches, one in East Texas, and 
>the other in Louisiana. They are both pronounced different and funny.


	I'm not sure, but I think that Jarea's comment may have been a very
witty joke.  There is a city in NY called Schenectady (I think I got the 
spelling right.)

	--  Jim C. <jchokey@leland.stanford.edu>
From: heath@athena.cs.uga.edu (Terrance Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: The Literary Canon
Date: 15 Aug 92 20:51:33 GMT
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens

In article <14297@mindlink.bc.ca> Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian) writes:

>
>But if we make a big issue about our race and sex--if it matters that authors,
>artists, and other prestigious people are of our race and sexual preference,
>then we're co-opted in the racist-sexist game. And if we do that, then we put
>off until forever the day when those differences don't matter. As some wise
>person once observed, "Living well is the best revenge."

     The issue, as I said before, has already been made. Pretending
that it is not an issue does no work toward creating a society where
the issue does not even exist.  If we ignore differences, rather than
understandind them and learing to appreciate them and value them, we
will indeed forever put off the day when those differences don't
matter. In the context of the culture, those differences do matter. We
must recognize this and create a culture in which they do not matter. 
     I would ammend the last statement to read "Surving whole is the
best revenge.
-- 
"Black men loving black men is THE revolutionary act!"
			-Joseph Beam_
Terrance Heath 
heath@athena.cs.uga.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: yarvin@highlite.uucp (Curtis Yarvin)
Subject: Re: The Literary Canon
Organization: Gotham Communications Research
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 06:38:31 GMT

Alice Walker writes:

>"I'm the one expected to do most of the work and not complain, and a long
>list of other things, over hundreds of years."

'Pears she's possessed the secret of eternal youth.  

Or is it reincarnation?  Was _The Color Purple_ written by the shade
of the Ebony Queen, Cleopatra?  Only Shirley MacLaine knows, and
she ain't tellin'.

c
From: klier@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: new Darwin biography
Date: 20 Aug 92 15:04:54 GMT
Article-I.D.: iscsvax.1992Aug20.200454.6157
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

I was peacefully standing in a checkout line at a bookstore today when 
Adrian Desmond & James Moore's _Darwin: The Life of Tormented Evolutionist"
leaped off the shelf and cunningly hid itself in my stack of books (right,
all 800 pages...;-) ).  I'm on the third chapter already -- remarkably
well written!  Somehow I think I'll get very little sleep tonight 8-)

Anyone else been attacked by this book???

Kay Klier 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: amorgan@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Crunchy Frog)
Subject: Re: Anybody read these trash books?
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 18:25:58 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.031811.23508@math.ucla.edu> 
  dstein@oak.math.ucla.edu (David Stein) writes:

	Re: Lem's _Eden_

>   I read this one recently, and  recommend it highly.  It starts somewhat
>   slowly, and might seem formulaic (the characters are refered to by their
>   vocation, i.e. The Engeneer, The Navigator, etc.), but in the end it all
>   makes sense, and is well worth the time.  It will also be helpfull if you
>   take into consideration the circumstances under which Lem was writing
>   (post-Stalinist Poland, late 50s), and what the target of the book was. 

Huh?  I thought he was and is still writing today.  In fact I thought
that _Eden_ was published fairly recently (last 4 years).  Am I full of
it?

Great book though. 

> - David
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>I'm not a native speaker of English, so I'm not sure what I wrote.
>Flames will be ignored unless you post them in perfect Czech.

Hmmmm.  Just remove all the vowels from my post and you'll be in
great shape.

C Frog
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Subject: Re: The Literary Canon & Women
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 19:27:35 GMT

Mike Morris writes:

	Francis Muir writes:

		The Frogs were a special case -- to some extent still are. 
		Remember the revolutionary cry:

			Liberte! Egalite! Fraternite!

	I think England was the special case.

Would you have expected any less of the Cradle of Western Civilization which
was rocked by a string of Supernannies from Bodicca through The Virgin Queen
on up to Maggie Thatcher?

							Fido

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: maureenw@sco.COM (Maureen Wilkes)
Subject: Re: The Literary Canon & Women
Organization: SCO Canada, Inc.
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 15:33:13 GMT

In article <gy0m5yj@lynx.unm.edu> rsquires@cyclops.eece.unm.edu (Roger Squires) writes:
>
>		Charlotte Gilman's Herland--This is the Project Gutenberg Etext.
>		This file should be named hrlnd10.txt or hrlnd10.zip and is made
>		for release on Mother's Day, May 10, 1992, to honor all mothers.
>
>		I have only one line of editorial comment to make about Herland:
>		I found it worthwhile to compare Herland to Dances With Wolves
                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Pardon?



                       Maureen Wilkes
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,rec.humor,alt.folklore.urban,rec.arts.sf.misc,alt.religion.kibology
From: sdr57@cas.org ()
Subject: Re: Agnostics and Athiests
Organization: Chemical Abstracts Service, Columbus, Ohio
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 14:05:22 GMT

In article <1992Aug10.203035.27768@news.cs.brandeis.edu> st890270@pip.cc.brandeis.edu writes:
>>There *IS* SCIENTIFIC PROOF that man did not exist on the planet Earth
>>within 7 days of its creation.
>
>Nah, it's all a conspiracy. God created the Dinosaur bones to give the
>planet a "lived in" feel
Absolutely - and he stole the idea from Strata by Terry Pratchett

******************************************************************************
Renegade academician. They're a dangerous breed when they go feral,
academics are...a chemist, too.
		    -(James P. Blaylock in "Lord Kelvin's Machine")

My organization hasn't agreed with any of my opinions so far, and
I doubt they'll start now.

Stanley "Ya nee speon" Roberts
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: tmaddox@netcom.com (Tom Maddox)
Subject: Re: Unspoken Words
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 92 06:38:50 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

In article <1992Aug16.132645.25134@morrow.stanford.edu> francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir) writes:
>Le Carre? Is he one whose opinions one should savour? 

	Regarding public schools, most certainly.  Unless, of course, we
are to listen only to those whose pedigree, overall excellence, etcetera
are vetted by Fido, which seems to me entirely absurd.

>Since
>when was he much more than a story-teller? He has admitted himself that
>Guinness' filmic performances contributed so much to the character of
>Smiley that he, Le Carre, is now not able further to define him. The fact 
>of the matter is that it is fashionable in some quarters in England to adopt 
>an "I am just one of the People" stance. It is supposed to be helpful in
>promoting book sales. 

	What a jumble of cross-purpose bullshit, Fido, none of which has the
least relevance to the matter.  Let me put it this way:  I've read his work,
and I've read yours, and I find his *much* more believable in this regard and
in others.

>All that Maddox has done by his "snob & shit" remark
>is make it clear how little he understands the, to him, alien English
>culture. 

	No, I am also echoing others to whom neither England nor public 
schools are alien.  

>This is not at all to his discredit but does somewhat illustrate
>my point that cultural barriers are sufficiently significant within Western 
>Civilization as to suggest that easy understanding of other civilizations
>may not be possible. Multi-culturalism is a warm puppy.

	Admittedly, particularly insular people can make an entire culture
*seem* alien, but this is a seeming and of particular significance only.  

>	I believe Fido is confusing the ideal and the actual.
>
>More likely a confluence than a confusion.

	More likely a Fidovian effluence, it seems to me.
-- 
				Tom Maddox
		    	    tmaddox@netcom.com
		   "I swear I never heard the first shot"
                Wm. Gibson, "Agrippa:  a book of the dead"
From: rooney@oxy.edu (Michael Sean Rooney)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: The nature of enlightened PC
Date: 14 Aug 92 23:40:46 GMT
Organization: Yale CS Mail/News Gateway

In a recent article, thus wrote jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy):

> The PC side has no-one to make
> fun of their foes with a talent to match P. J. O'Rourke, and
> we're holding Tom Wolfe in reserve.

      This is generally because the foes of PC (racists, sexists,
heterosexists, other generic oppressors) aren't funny except as cruel
absurdities illustrating colossal human stupidity.  (E.g., William
Dannemeyer as Congressman.  Har-de-har-har.)

      And that the Estimable Professor McCarthy claims a pompous,
priggish smartass whose primary method of relating to others is to
smarmily sneer at them from the safe distance of his best-selling
books hardly paints the Right in a favorable light, let alone as
dispossessed subjects of left-wing persecution.

      Personally, I've no taste for the reactionary (in the non-
ideological sense) orthodoxy of some (very few) extremists on college
campuses today.  But I find that substituting "anti-racism" or
"anti-sexism" for the loaded term "PC" in any commentary on the
subject usually reveals the intended meaning of the ideologue in
question.

      ObBooks: Anything by Barbara Ehrenreich.

Cordially,

Michael Rooney

"`How long have I probed this one thing, the brain of the leech, so
  that it's slippery truth should here no longer slip away from me!
  Here is _my_ kingdom!
 `For its sake I have cast away all others, for its sake I have grown
  indifferent to all others; and close beside my knowledge crouches my
  black ignorance.'"
From: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: The Literary Canon
Date: 13 Aug 92 18:59:43 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world

Eric Rauchway is perhaps a little too quick to dismiss the canon as the product
of a cabal of English profs in the pay of Norton. If it's not too cliometric to
say so, I think one could come up with a quantitative scale: trace the
influence of a given writer, direct or indirect, on subsequent writers, critics
and scholars. In some cases you could do a straight citation count--how often
does Peacock turn up in scholarly journals compared to Fielding or whoever.
Perhaps more debatably, critical analysis might find evidence in, say, Dryden's
work of Jonson's influence. Then the issue would be whether it's really a
Jonsonian influence, or that of a still earlier writer influencing both men
independently. We might also object that some literary images are so common as
to be "in the air" and attributable to no one in particular: is Obi-Wan Kenobi
an *hommage* to Tolkien's Gandalf, or just an off-the-shelf Wise Old Man
archetype, provenance unknown? Here criticism yields to scholarship; we need to
know what George Lucas was reading before he wrote Star Wars.
Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:14778 rec.humor:26236 alt.folklore.urban:21568 rec.arts.sf.misc:2599 alt.religion.kibology:3518
From: rone@girtab.usc.edu (Ron Echeverri)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,rec.humor,alt.folklore.urban,rec.arts.sf.misc,alt.religion.kibology
Subject: Re: Agnostics and Athiests
Date: 17 Aug 92 16:57:11 GMT
Followup-To: junk
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: girtab.usc.edu

In article <1992Aug13.193857.2328@gtephx.UUCP> forda@gtephx.UUCP (Andrew Ford @ AGCS, Phoenix, Arizona) writes:
[ditty on solving world hunger deleted]
>If we all do this, this type of mondo-xposted flame war will quickly
>disappear.

Anyone with half a brain will simply bounce all the mail back.

5150
has half a brain
From: miklg@acuson.com (Michael Goldman )
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Anybody Else Read History?
Date: 21 Aug 92 22:27:14 GMT
Organization: Acuson; Mountain View, California

daggs@l42bb.jsc.nasa.gov (Clark) writes:

>	While I am not disinterested in the other topics under discussion I was
>wondering if there are any fans of History and Historical Fiction present.  I
>had previously been an SF/Fantasy reader and still enjoy the occaisional
>diversion

	For historical fiction which tends more to history I liked
the works of Gore Vidal, particularly "Burr", "Lincoln", "Julian
the Apostate", and one title which escapes me set in the 5th
century BC.  More recently, Colleen McCullogh's "The First Man of
Rome", and the "Grass Crown" set in Rome just before the Empire are
pretty good.

	Closer to sci-fi is "Lest Darkness Fall" wherein a
classics professor in the 1930s ends up (as if by magic) in 6th
century Rome and tries to save the Goth-controlled rump of the
western Roman Empire from the devastation caused by Belisarius.


	- Michael Goldman.

-- 
"History teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have
exhausted all other alternatives." - Abba Eban
	Disclaimer:  All views are solely my own & not the views of Acuson.
	<sun!sono!miklg>  or  [miklg@acuson.com]
From: barclay@RAIL9000.gatech.edu (Barclay Blanchard)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: The Literary Canon
Date: 12 Aug 92 13:49:30 GMT
Organization: Georgia Tech Research Institute

I believe that students should take some responsibility for their educations;
it seems to be up to those of us who want to learn non-standard curricula to
get new curricula added.  I think that a student's choosing his/her direction
of study and taking an active role in learning is important.  But it's 
difficult to find some of the non-standard directions without guidance...
for instance, finding the roots of African American fiction before, say,
1965 or 1970.  It's still difficult in some environments.  I think variety of
choice and of exposure is important, especially to those of us who feel
that the canon doesn't speaks to us very well.
-- 
Barclay Elizabeth Blanchard    barclay@rail9000@gatech.edu
"I've been laughed at by some of the funniest people."
--Lissie, Alice Walker's _The Temple of My Familiar_
Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:14897 rec.arts.sf.written:11252
From: goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: Canonical Genre Fiction:  SF
Date: 20 Aug 1992 07:52:30 GMT
Organization: The Sinister Icy Black Hand of Death Club
Reply-To: goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb)
NNTP-Posting-Host: lightning.berkeley.edu
Originator: goldfarb@lightning.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Aug20.064731.5443@neptune.inf.ethz.ch> qvortrup@inf.ethz.ch (Michael Qvortrup) writes:
)1) The entries are numbered. Does that imply some kind of good/better/best
)   ordering, or is the numbering artificial?
)
)--Mike

	It's chronological. The entries are arranged from earliest to
latest date of publication.

-- 
   David Goldfarb          | "I am the mad blind energy of the universe,
goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu  | I vacuum under the beds!"
goldfarb@UCBOCF.BITNET     |            -- Kim Stanley Robinson
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: jpl@lyra.Stanford.EDU (Jonathan Lavigne)
Subject: Re: The Literary Canon
Organization: DSO, Stanford University
Date: 13 Aug 92 04:26:44 GMT

tmaddox@netcom.com (Tom Maddox) writes:

>	With regard to the canon debate, a few comments:
  [Much deleted]
>	Note that the idea of a canon goes back to the early
>church's need to establish which Biblical texts were central, which not,
>and though the church had (and has) compelling reasons to institute a canon, 
>the various branches of literary (or artistic) studies at least arguably 
>do not. 
The church hardly invented the notion of a canon. Here's a relevant passage
from Henri Marrou's History of Education in Antiquity:
 
   The Hellenistic age carried its official canonization of the classics to 
   great lengths. The educational tradition has produced lists of typical
   great men--legislators, painters, sculptors, and inventors. These lists
   eventually came to be codified, perhaps in the middle of the second century
   B.C., and thus the "canon" was established: ten Attic orators, ten
   historians, ten painters, ten sculptors; poets, philosophers, physicians ...
 
You could say, in fact, that the early Church Fathers were precisely in the
position of today's anti-canonists, trying to undermine a literary culture
of great prestige--and in their view, great irrelevance--in the name of
values that were anything but literary. Now there's a thought. Derrida as
the Tertullian de nos jours.
 
Jonathan Lavigne            BL.JPL@RLG.STANFORD.EDU
Research Libraries Group/Stanford University
From: crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu (Lauren L. Crawford)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: MFK Fisher (Re: Bang, BANG, B-A-N-G!)
Date: 20 Aug 92 15:04:46 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <1992Aug20.005532.2195@morrow.stanford.edu> francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir) writes:
>
>	Where do you rate 'Passage to India'?
>
>Ah. I feared someone would ask that. You know, I have not read *A Passage
>To India* for many, many years, and I doubt that I ever shall again. I
>found it profoundly uncomfortable reading. Perhaps it was because it was 
>written not out of experience. So, where do you think it lies?

What do you mean?  Were all the others autobiographical?  Forster did
live in India, or so I've heard (I'm not very knowledgeable about him).
Is all good fiction written "out of experience"?

I too found _A Passage to India_ uncomfortable reading, more because of
the subject matter than anything else.  I'm a major India buff; somewhere
in my reading I found a dialogue between two Indian writers on that book.
One was incensed; the other loved it and felt he captured Indian culture 
wonderfully, though he didn't think the language nuances translated well
into English.  

A great modern protegee of his is Ruth Prawar Jabvahl (sp?), who also
wrote the screenplay to "A Room With A View".  She is particularly 
adept at writing about inordinate human passions, from an Indian/Anglo
slant.  



-- 
Lauren Crawford  //  crawford@ben.dev.upenn.edu

Verbosity leads to unclear, inarticulate things.
            -- J. Danforth Quayle
From: irwinke@CS.ORST.EDU (Keith Irwin)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Asimov and the decay of SF
Date: 13 Aug 92 04:55:51 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Oregon State University, Computer Science Dept
Originator: irwinke@storm.CS.ORST.EDU

irwinke@storm.cs.orst.edu (Keith Irwin) writes:

>> At any rate, I will admit for now that it is a matter of taste: I prefer
>> novels of character over novels of anything else, because I seem to get 
>> more out of them, on every level, including entertainment.  

tmaddox@netcom.com (Tom Maddox) writes:

> My only question is, why the hell are you reading sf?  It is not a 
> literature of character nor does it intend to be--i.e., it's not as though sf
> writers are generally trying to do character and getting it wrong.

Well, you got me there.  I don't read SF, not because it's labeled SF,
but because of the change in my tastes.  I *used* to read SF, and I
particularly enjoyed Leguin, and found, a few years ago, that I still
liked her after I'd left the genre.

Your point about SF writers not trying to do character is well taken, but I
find (or found) in some books that it seems as if they are trying to do
character, and failing.  Gibson, if I remember, at least didn't seem to be
trying in that area, and his characters, though flat, were at least
tolerable and allowed me to look around without grimacing too much.  Again,
it's all a matter of taste and preference, unless we want to state what
"fiction" ought to "do."  SF wants to present alternate external realities,
and succeeds on that level.  Some other fiction wants to present internal
realities, and succeeds on that level.  (I feel nervous making these
distinctions).

So, I guess it remains to debate what Leguin was trying to do, eh?

--Keith
From: nmrdb@vms.macc.wisc.edu (BEVERLY SEAVEY)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Need Address of CHINA BOOKS AND PERIODICALS
Date: 18 Aug 92 16:11:27 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin Academic Computing Center

Does anyone have the address or phone # of their offices in San Francisco?
I have half of a catalog, but I used up the order form, and don't have
another one.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: AZ.EPC@forsythe.stanford.edu 
Subject: Re: The Literary Canon & Women
Organization: Stanford University, California, USA
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 04:37:36 GMT

>
>This triggered a memory of THE YELLOW WALLPAPER (author??!?), a pre-feminist
>indictment of the 19th-century psychological practice of denying women
>access to books and stimulating conversation in order to give
>their poor little brains a rest -- when in fact all they needed was
>to be taken seriously.  The story traces the mental disintegration of
>a creative young woman ("high strung", according to the doctors her
>husband hired), who goes mad after being condemned to a life without
>reading or writing.  Her daydreams become nightmarish
>hallucinations under the tyrrany of the men who control her life.
>Is anyone else familiar with this work?  My memories of it are rather
>sketchy.  Anyone know the author?

Charlotte Perkins Gilman?  I think I got that right...