From: ednclark@kraken.itc.gu.edu.au (Jeffrey Clark)
Subject: Re: Alt.Atheism FAQ: Atheist Resources
Keywords: FAQ, atheism, faith, free will
Organization: ITC, Griffith University, Brisbane, Australia
Date: 23 Dec 92 23:46:08 GMT

ciaran@ulysse.enst.fr (Ciaran O'Donnell) writes:


                [lots of stuff deleted]

>Clearly, if God exists, there is no higher truth than this. If we have
>knowledge of his existence, we lose our first form of liberty, that is the
>liberty to believe. If we refuse to accept God despite this knowledge, our
>second form of liberty, that is our possibility to reject him nonetheless,
>is useless to us since there is no higher truth in which we can then believe.

>The point I am making here is that the possibility to choose, and even
>reject God, is essential to human liberty.

Not really. I have little choice in accepting that I exist, or that I will
one day die. So if something as important as the existence of God were
left unclear for my liberty I would be most dreadfully pissed off. If it
were essential as you say then human liberty does not exist for all the
myriad issues we do not get to choose about. However I am of the opinion
that such things that are of such dreadful importance as the existence of
God, would be a fact of life, not something deliberately made confusing to
maintain our liberty.

>Life in the presence of a refusal to believe
>--------------------------------------------

>I assume that I am addressing myself to people that do not believe in God.

>I now assume the two points above granted, i.e. that you the reader admit the
>existence of a choice about the existence of God as necessary, and that its
>effects on someone who chooses positively are different from for themselves
>I will now consider the consequences of this negative choice from a
>philosophical point of view.

Basically I don't accept the necessity of a choice here.

>Two things remain necessary, namely to live out your life and to continue
>to ask yourself questions.

Agreed.

>Many atheists come from religious backgrounds, so their rejectal of a belief
>in God does not stop them from looking for justice, kindness, and so on
>in their lives. Some atheists have never believed neither in God nor in such

Yes, once atheists break away from the mind bending, unjust, cruel
organisations that are the bane of humanity they seek what is anithetical to
them (ie justice kindness etc).

>things as these. I call these "stomach" atheists.

Why are they "stomach" atheists? Sounds a little derogatory to me. I wish I
could say I was one of them, they must be geniuses or had a wonderful family
background, to have realised the truth without ever falling for societal
religious traps, now that is something.

>I think there is an important consequence of the "atheist choice" that needs
>to be underlined.
>This is despite the fact that the above remarks about living out your own
>life, about having to ask yourself questions, about looking
>for kindness in your own life, or even about attaching too much importance
>to your stomach would apply equally well to religious believers.

>When you decided not to belive in God you simultaneously decided
>to believe first of all in yourself. It is, after all, a belief in your
>own capacity to choose that led to your choice. You can believe in other
>things (justice, kindness, one's stomach) but you are alone in making these
>decisions.

>It is both harder and easier for we religous believers. It is easier
>because our conviction that we are not alone leads us to seek God's counsel
>(by faith and prayer). It is harder because we must submit ourselves to His
>will.

>Socrates said "Know thyself." I would add to that "Know Socrates" (this
>knowledge is inexpensive to acquire). This advice applies to anyone, but
>because your atheists beliefs make you believe in yourself first of all,
>it would seem to apply particularly to you.

>Question your own beliefs most of all. Look at your own life -- why do
>things happen to you the way they do. Are you unnecessarily constraining
>yourself (in your work, for money, in your human relations).

>Above all, are you asking yourself the right questions?
>Even the wrong answer to the right question has some good in it. This is
>because sincere examination of wrong answer will lead to the right one.
>However, nothing is more useless than the right answer to the wrong question. 

Ciaren (sorry if I didn't spell your name correctly), I know you have tried
your hardest here but you really do come across in a very condescending
manner. You assume that the only people who desire justice and kindness are
from a religious background. Well I'm afraid after meeting atheists and
theists of all kinds from a myriad of walks of life, I can tell you there is
no basis for this supposition. Atheists (even non-ex-religious ones) seem to
be even more concerned for equality, conservation, liberty and I don't think
that this is due to religious backgound.

Jeff.


>-- 
>Ciaran O'Donnell/Telecom Paris - Dept INF/46 rue Barrault/75634 Paris-13 FRANCE
>Phone +33 1 4581 7600	  / Fax +33 1 4581 3119    / E-mail ciaran@inf.enst.fr
Newsgroups: alt.atheism