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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 16:34:32 -0500
From:         Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: HOW LOW HAVE WE GONE.

Excerpts from christia: 26-Jan-93 HOW LOW HAVE WE GONE.
"DRCV06::GRAHAM"@DRCVAX. (1040)

> Where is the Christian wittness in such an activity?  How does it bring
> glory to God Almighty?  How does it make disciples for Christ?  I can
> only believe that it does none of those things.  It only glorifies a
> movement and attitude that should have no Christian attachment whatever.
>
Which is of more immediate importance:

1) Saving human lives
2) Evangelizing.

I'm afraid that evangelization is well-nigh impossible to accomplish
effectively from a distance.  Quoting Bible verses is going to do little
good for someone who doesn't believe the Bible is inspired.  Such
attempts often backfire anyway; people are revulsed by the "religious
zealots" and turned off and away from Christ because of the often-crude
attempts to cram evangelism down people's throats

Evangelism must be accomplished through personal contact, love, and
Christian witness. Evangelism is rarely effective without establishing a
personal contact and friendship with the person being evangelized.  We
must show them the love of Jesus as expressed through our relationship
with them.

Being as first of all a pro-life march is hardly the place and
opportunity to do this sort of effective evangelism, we need to focus on
the more immediate need -- demonstrating to people that this _ IS _ a
human being being killed by abortion.

You'd be surprised, Dan, at how many people don't realize what aborted
fetuses look like.  Many people, if they knew how abortions were
performed, the pain which it causes the child, and the detailed
development of the child at very early stages, they may oppose abortion.

I'm not sure what the big deal is about pictures of aborted children.
The same person who watches a graphic, bloody, violent movie like
Robocop should have no qualms about seeing the picture of an aborted
child, except, perhaps, if that picture instills guilt and fear in them
and pricks their conscience.  And that is exactly what we need to turn
people away from abortion.

Shall we save lives or pass out tracts that will only litter the streets
and turn people away from Christianity?  Simply making someone Christian
does not necessarily turn them away from abortion.  But perhaps by
showing the truth -- pictures, statistics, whatever -- we can save a
human life, witness by our devotion to human rights, and plant a seed
for later conversion.

No, Dan, I do not believe that saving human lives is devoid of value for
a Christian.

Eric
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Date:         Sun, 24 Jan 1993 19:50:47 -0500
From:         JIM DRZYMALA <DRZYMALA@UBVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Where it's @

MAKS,

Thanks for the offer, but it's a little late.  And lucky for you to.  With
250,000 people participating in the march (I know there not all B-STUDY list
subscribers), you may have had lots, and lots of guests.

Seriously though, it is very nice of you and your wife to make such an offer.
I know Jesus would do the same.  Even though this was my first visit to the
Capital, I do intend on going again.  Therefore, I may be asking for directions
in the future.  Thank you.

Finally, I do know this is going to the list, and there is one point I'd like
to make.Please get involved in the Pro-Life movement.  I don't know what people
are already doing, and it doesn't matter.  But our Country more than ever needs
many prayers.  As far as the Freecom of Choice Act (FOCA) goes, before we could
rely on former president Bush to veto the bill.  Now, we're not so fortunate.
President Clinton has said that he will sign it into law.  That's spookey.

At the breakfast I was at Friday, in Washington, D.C, there was a lawyer who
was speaking about the FOCA bill.  He said that the Senate already has the
50 votes to pass the FOCA bill.  However, the Senate is trying to get 60 votes
before they begin debate on it.  This way they can block a filibuster.

As far as the House of Representatives goes, he said it is still to close to
call.  Last year it was 20? to 20?.  However, since the last election the
House of Representatives has lost 10 - 15 Prolife seats.

Some may say this message involes polictics, and is inappropriate for this
list.  Let me tell you, if the Mandatory Abortion on Demand Act, S25/HR25,
otherwise known as the Freedom of Choice Act is passed, this country is
in grave trouble.  God will not tolerate this.  Please act now!

"Because dead children cannot call the President, it is up to us to do so on
their behalf.  The number for the White House Comment Line is (202) 456-
1111."

Your brother in Christ Jesus,
Jim D.
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 09:19:18 MST
From:         Usenet/Netnews Moderator <FOCMCB@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Tithing

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
>From: 4075_226@uwovax.uwo.ca
>Subject: Re:      Tithing
>Organization: University of Western Ont, London
>Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1993 20:39:08 GMT

In article <CHRISTIA%93011911254316@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU>,
         Tom Purcell <GE0110@SIUCVMB.BITNET> writes:
>
> * Is 10% really a divine percentage or a metaphor for "systematic"
>   giving as some contend?  As a practical matter, how does one compute
>   the 10% - gross, net, before or after taxes, or what?
>

The "pat" (ie. fast, off-the-cuff and probably insensitive) answer to
"before or after taxes" would be "Depends on whether you put the Lord
first or the Government first."  Anyway, what's special about taxes?
Why don't people ask "before or after rent?", "before or after groceries?".

Surely, if we're considering giving a percentage of something to the Lord,
the question of how we calculate "something" is as important as how we
determine the percentage.

Dave Martin                             <dave@csd.uwo.ca>
Computer Science Department
University of Western Ontario
London Ontario Canada
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 12:03:01 -0500
Comments:     Resent-From: "jones, mark" <JMJONES@UGA.BITNET>
Comments:     Originally-From: "jones, mark" <JMJONES@UGA.BITNET>
From:         "jones, mark" <JMJONES@UGA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: WOOPS

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
WOOPS! I Just realized I sent a note to Christia which was designed
to go to my friend Scott Weberg privately. My apologies for the rambling
and poor use of disk space. Scott, forgive me-my bad. Thanks gang...Mark
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Via:         UK.AC.CAM.PPSW; 21 JAN 93 23:52:19 GMT
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 23:52:48 +0000
From:         "G.J. McCaughan" <gjm11@CUS.CAM.AC.UK>
Subject:      Re: evolution and things
              21 Jan 93 11:47:21 CST."
              <"ppsw1.cam..197:21.00.93.18.10.21"@ppsw.cam.ac.uk>

Tom Shelton wrote:

> Gareth,
>     Your reply was not eaten.  One of the options of the LISTEARN is to have
> your replies sent back to you and not just to the list.  By default, when you
> reply to a message, your message is NOT sent to yourself.  You can turn on
> this feature by sending the appropriate command to the CHRISTIA LISTSERV.
> (Sorry I don't have my copy of the commands handy).

Indeed my reply was not eaten, but that's not why -- I was posting via Usenet,
which behaves a little differently. I have now decided it's easier to subscribe
to CHRISTIA as a mailing list rather than as a newsgroup, anyway.

Incidentally, I think the command is SET CHRISTIA REPRO.

--
Gareth McCaughan     Dept. of Pure Mathematics & Mathematical Statistics,
gjm11@cus.cam.ac.uk  Cambridge University, England.    [Research student]
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 15:43:07 MST
From:         Usenet/Netnews Moderator <FOCMCB@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: A poll on praying.

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
>From: hartley@maths.uwa.oz.au (Mike Hartley)
>Date: 22 Jan 1993 16:15:50 +0800
>Subject: Re: A poll on praying.
>References: <CHRISTIA%93012109160739@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU>

>From: riipinen@dxcern.cern.ch (Petri Juhani Riipinen)

>Shalom!

>I have a (christian?) friend, who thinks, that it is enough, if we only pray
>once about something and then forget it. He says, that God knows our needs
>and will respond accordingly. On the other hand, I feel that we should really
>be patient and pray day after day something. I don't think that God wants it
>so, that we send a wish to Him and then forget it.

>But anyway, how do you feel about this? I wish to do a little poll. So,
>please
>answer me via email, and I will do a summary, if there are enough answers.

>Fill in:

>   ( ) I pray God only once for something and trust that He knows my needs
>       best.

>   (x) I pray God often for the same thing and believe, that He expects me
>       to pray for the things, although He knows what I need.

>   ( ) None of the above. What: ___________________________________________


>   On what bible reference do you base this believe?

Eg - parable of the persistent widow...



>Thank you,
>          - Petri J. Riipinen -
>--
>Petri~J.~Riipinen~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~(riipinen@dxcern.cern.ch)~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Les~terrases~de~Thoiry~n.15~~~~~~Renginpolku~1~~~~~~~~~~~~~~at~13.2.02~~~~~~~
>01710~Thoiry,~~France~~~~~~~~~~~~28450 Vanha-Ulvila,~Finland~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>+3350208289~~~~~~until~10.2.92~~~"Opinions expressed are my own etc..."~~~~~~
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 09:15:01 -0600
From:         Theodore Penn <U59919@UICVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Prayer Request

I would like to request prayer for my little brother, Johnny
He is 12 and goes to a Lutheran grade school here in Chicago,
but he is in no way Christian.
He is a violent young man who has threatened the lives of my mother, sister,
grandmother, and myself, many times.
I have slept a few times with my door locked.
Our father died on my 15th birthday, my brother was 8.
Our father disciplined me, but my parents got divorced when he was 5, so
Johnny was never disciplined much if at all.
My mother has not tried to discipline him very much because she is afraid
that it could be called child abuse.
My mother is only now trying to discipline him, and she is meeting much
resistance.  I have tried witnessing to him, but he refuses to believe that
he is not a Christian because he goes to a Christian school.
In my flesh, I want to see him hit bottom and get in such serious trouble that
he has no one else to turn to except Christ, and at the same time I don't want
that to happen because he is my brother.

I thank everyone in advance for their prayers for Johnny.
And please, no reminders that God has not given us a spirit of fear.
I've been reminded of that so often, it feels like I have it tattooed to the
inside of my eyelids.
--------------------------------+------------+---------------------------------
Theodore Penn                   |  <><   <>< | University of Illinois at
U59919@uicvm.uic.edu  Internet  |    ><>     | Chicago - Computer Science Dept.
U59919@uicvm          Bitnet    | <><  <><   | Go Against the Flow.
(312)237-0096         Phone     |  <><  <><  | I am a Stranger to this World.
From: FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET (zane of dhahran)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: pre-existance of souls
Date: 23 Jan 93 14:46:18 GMT
Organization: King Fahd University of Petroleum and Minerals, S.A.
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X-Acknowledge-To: <FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET>

Eric,  interesting divigation this little question about the origin (Origen?)
of souls.  You posited an occult origen for the idea of pre-existance.  Origen
got it from Plato and Neo-platonists.  The Greeks were influenced by both
African thought and Indian thought.  In both cases the concept is widespread.
I personally will take a shot at it and say I think it is probably intuitional.
Ask very young children about it and I have a feeling you will find a lot of
them are little heretics.  I am not sure (so why am I going to go ahead and
stick out my neck?) but I think some of the extra-canonical literature such
as the Book of Enoch also mentions the pre-existance of souls.

Peace, zane.
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Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 08:18:20 -0600
From:         jim coen <coen@ACC.WUACC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Christian Seeking correspondence!

Hello Alexander Lee!


>Hello everybody...
>
>I am a Christian here in Exeter University in England, and I am
>trying to get in touch with Christians from anywhere, to share with
>and to correspond with.
>
>Anyone interested?
>
>Yours,

>Alex.
>:-)
>--
>Alexander Lee.  E100, Brendon, Birks, New North Road, Exeter, Devon EX4 4PH
>      Tel: 0392 55719 or 423850.  E-mail:  st92ajml@uk.ac.ex.cen
>
>       * * * * If God is for us, who can be against us? * * * *

Welcome from Topeka, Kansas! If you want correspondance with Christians
from all over the world, this is the place to be. You may not always
agree, and you may not always like the direction the discussion goes. But
for the most part, it is a blessing and very enjoyable.

God Bless you and the brothers/sisters in England!

Jim Coen
Academic Computer Center
Washburn University
Topeka, KS  66621

coen@acc.wuacc.edu
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Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 20:38:38 -0500
From:         "Michael A. Kline" <MKLINE@VDH.BITNET>
Subject:      RE: centering prayer/prayer of silence/contemplation, etc.
              22 Jan 1993 19:11:37 -0600 from <tjshel@MAPLE.MONSANTO.COM>

I had made a reply to this earlier and missed the concept of "centering"
prayer being a TM type thing which I know has creeping into many
churches. This was not my intent. I do not believe in incorporating
New Age techniques into our prayer life. To empty oneself in "prayer"
also would mean that your guard would be down as well.

"Groaning in the spirit" is not the same as chanting some montra. Those
that have done this know what I'm talking about. Sorry for any confusion.

Maks
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Sun, 24 Jan 1993 00:25:16 -0500
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      apology; mistaken identity

Sorry, people:

I accidentally sent my reply regarding a rather insulting posting on
Rush Limbaugh to CHRISTIA.  As I'm sure you can guess, it should
have gone to the Politics list.

BTW, I tried to re-sub to CHRISTIA last night, and I got a message
saying that there wasn't any.  What's up?

Love INC,
         --Kerry
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 10:45:00 CST
From:         MB09@SWTEXAS.BITNET
Subject:      Marinava

Hello,

Do any of you know what the word Marinava means?  While visiting my parents
in Idaho in December, the musicians kept singing this in a song.  I was
curious as to what it means.  I also saw the word as the name of a Christian
school up there.  I am not sure of the spelling, but it sounds like I
spelled it.

Thanks!

May Christ's Peace and Love be with you,

Michelle
      _|_
       |
"With God all things are  possible."  Matthew 19:26
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 12:16:56 CST
From:         Russ Neumeier <russn@SSEC.WISC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Mormon/LDS
              93 12:08 pm

>
>
> What is LDS?
>
This is short for Latter Day Saints which is what the Mormons call themselves.

They are the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints.

Russ
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Russ Neumeier       | I'm not ashamed to let you know, I want this light in
russn@ssec.wisc.edu | me to show.  I'm not ashamed to speak the name....
SSEC, UW-Madison    | of Jesus Christ ---- The Newsboys
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET (zane of dhahran)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: miracles or miracle whip?
Date: 21 Jan 93 13:41:07 GMT
Organization: King Fahd University of Petroleum and Minerals, S.A.
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X-Acknowledge-To: <FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET>

Carol A. Long.

Hi Carol.  Why the curiosity about miracles?  Are you looking for one to
happen?  The scientific mind will want a clear definition of what you mean by
a miracle.  I presume you mean asking God to change water to wine at the blink
of an eye, or the sudden ability to walk on water or something right?  Is a
miracle a thing that by-passes what we normally call the normal workings of
the universe as we understand it?  Usually people want to boil this down to
physics - and physical things.  E.g., a person who loves someone inspite of
"being done wrong" is not necessarily a miracle in this case - right?  A real
miracle is seeing an eye in a socket where there wasn't one before?

I shouldn't assume too much.  Maybe you believe in miracles but just want to
find out if others do too.  I do.  But then again, I grew up with miracles, and
came from a people that think miracles are relatively normal anyway.  I think
most people believe in miracles until they are taught not to.  I have experienc
ed a few of the above type of miracles, but didn't have a camera or tape
measure with me - sorry.  One interesting one for me personally was from before
I was a Christian, but had a Christian pray for a bad sprain in my thumb and
it was completely healed.  That is, before he prayed for it, I couldn't move it
or let anyone touch my thumb without pain.  After he prayed, I could move it
with no pain at all and could shake hands with macho-crunchers.
    In my case, I really enjoyed having a healed-up thumb, but that miracle
(to me it was a miracle) didn't make me become a Christian or anything.  I
knew Native American healers at least could probably do the same.  I figured
all the miracles in the world come from God, but I didn't equate God with
the Christian Trinity exclusively.
    I am not sure why i am going into all this detail, hope it helps.

                              Peace in Christ, zane.
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Date:         Thu, 21 Jan 1993 09:35:12 MST
From:         Usenet/Netnews Moderator <FOCMCB@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: King James Bible.

----------------------------Original message----------------------------
>Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
>From: "P.Debenham" <ppxpmd@mips.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk>
>Subject: Re: King James Bible.
>Organization: Cripps Computing Centre, University of Nottingham
>Date: Thu, 21 Jan 93 10:38:03 GMT

There was a programme on BBC Radio 3 about Tyndale and his translation of
the Bible into English which people following this debate may find
interesting.
Knowing the BBC there is a good chance that it will be on the World Service
somepoint over the next month or so but not having a listening guide I cannot
tell.  If anyone in this country wants a copy send me a tape and return
postage and I'll make a copy.   I have not listened to all of the programme
yet but what I did listen too sounded worthwhile.

Peter Debenham, Physics Dept., University Park, Nottingham, UK. NG7 2RD
tel +44 (0)602 515151 x 8323    fax +44 (0)602 515180
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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 09:10:55 MST
From:         jww@EVOLVING.COM
Subject:      Re: March for Life
              93 7:41 am

> [...] one speaker said that after
> World War II Admiral Yamamoto said that Japan had expected that the
> sneak attack on Pearl Harbor would administer a crushing blow, but
> instead it awoke a sleeping giant that crushed them.

He may have said it, but not after the war.  Admiral Yamamoto was
shot down and killed in the South Pacific in 1943.

Yours in pedantry,

Fr. John
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Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 12:34:00 -0500
From:         "Carl A. Lahetta" <U952020@RUTADMIN.BITNET>
Subject:      10%

   I've heard arguments for 10% and for less when tithing.  Yet, one must
keep in mind that the whole 10% went partly to the temple *and* to the
state of Israel.  Since part of the 10% was for the state can we today tell
people to give 10% or else?  My own convictions, give what the Lord leads
you to give.  To many times Christians are concerned with the letter of the
law instead of the spirit of the law.

Carl---+
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Date:         Thu, 28 Jan 1993 17:14:00 +1000
From:         Ken Diefenbach <DIEFENBAK@TOPAZ.UCQ.EDU.AU>
Subject:      Re: Why Are We Here?

Darren

    This will probably be disappointing in some ways because I've never come
across Rush Limbaugh other than through this forum. I vehemently object to the
word "idiot" (it's a definite no-no from my kids). Having a child who has
developmental delays has probably evoked that reaction. Mind you, my wife has
similar objections to the word "Knucklehead" which I am trying, somewhat
unsuccessfully, to drum out of my vocabulary.

    I was always full of my own intelligence. Sometimes I still regress. As
you can see by the above, I am still somewhat incomsistent. BUT except in the
sort of self-deprecating banter that can go between _very_ good friends,
belittling someone else belittles yourself more. These days, I think that
even bantering with your best friend isn't overly healthy.

    My father (who good-naturedly stirred his mother-in-law forever and we
kids joined in) was upset on the weekend when I was having a go at him in the
time-honoured and family tradition. Complained that he didn't want to be seen as
an object of ridicule by his grandkids. I'm gonna have to write him a serious
letter telling him that I'll do better, but he started it all years ago by
calling me "fat boy" at the top of his lungs on the beach one day. Now that
he's fat (and tired) and I'm only tired, he doesn't like the idea so much.

     I love my dad dearly, but I don't want to repeat his mistakes. No-one
should expect to have perfect parents (and I'll never be one), but we should
try and avoid repeating the mistakes our parents made on us.

    So, to the point...

    I would object to the use of blatant ridicule by a public figure, but if
it was someone whose ideas corresponded to mine, I'd probably have to be shown
that the person was doing it myself.

    Rambling yet again, and it's time to go home

    Regards Darren et al
    Ken D.
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