From: friedenb@silver.egr.msu.edu (Gedaliah Friedenberg)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Disproof of "Proof 2" (was *** MoJ: Proof 2: The Passover Prophecy ***)
Date: 25 Jan 93 00:30:13 GMT
Reply-To: friedenb@silver.egr.msu.edu (Gedaliah Friedenberg)
Organization: College of Engineering, Michigan State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: silver.egr.msu.edu


In article <1993Jan19.115444.28751@ucl.ac.uk> ucakrvb@ucl.ac.uk (Vijay
Bhuchar) writes:

>Isaiah 53 is the prophecy of the Suffering Servant.  In 52:13 -
>53:2, we are introduced to the servant who will be lifted up
>(compare with John 3:14).

Isaiah 53 in one of the most quoted passages by missionaries.  It is
used to prove that the person referred to in Isaiah 53 is the same
person (Jesus) that is referred to in Matthew 26 and 27, which
describes the plotting of the Jews to kill Jesus (thus he was
despised), the binding of binding and deliverance of Jesus to the
Romans by the Jews, after which Jesus made no answer to the
accusations presented (brought as a lamb, yet he opened not his
mouth); he was on trial at the same time as a murderer (Luke 23:25),
and was crucified with two robbers (and made his grave with the
wicked).  [NOTE:  all parenthesized phrases are citations of Isaiah 53
which Vijay did not include in his original post, and is too long for
me to type.  Read Isaiah 53 before reading this post]

>Verses 3 to 12 give a graphic description of how the righteous
>servant would be despised, rejected and led to his death.  

Does this point specifically to Jesus?  No way.  Many Jewish
commentators feel that it refers to the Jewish people as a whole.
There are many instances in the Tanach where the Jewish people are
referred to in the singular (as in Isaiah 53).  Consider the most
important line in the Torah:  Shema Yisroel, HaShem Elokeynu, HaShem
echad (Hear O Israel, the Lord who is our G-d, is one).  In Hebrew the
word Shema is singular.(*1)  

Isaiah himself *only four chapters earlier* calls the Jewish people
the *same term* that he used here "my servant" (Isaiah 49:3) which is
singular.  This explicitly refers to the Jewish people. Thus in Isaiah
49:6 Isaiah says that the Jews are to be a light unto all of the
nations (ohr l'goyim) and are therefore more responsible, and Isaiah
points out in Isaiah 53 that the Jews will bear the iniquity of the
world.

Isaiah 53 could very well be describing the Jewish people:  
"despised by the world" -  Holocaust, Inquisition, Crusades all
happened as the world silently watched. (*2) 
Etc.

I also challenge anyone to a good explanation as to the constant
changing of tenses in Isaiah 53.  Isaiah 53:2 says that "he shall grow
up as a tender plant" (futurative).  The next verse says "He is
despised and rejected" (present).  The *next* verse says "surely he
has born our griefs and carried our sorrows (past).  And finally the
fourth consecutive verse "But he was wounded for our transgressions"
(past).  

Now, if Isaiah is prophetically speaking about a future occourance
- Jesus (who came much after Isaiah), then why does he use the past
tense.  Even if Isaiah was living at the time of Jesus (which he
surely was not), it is inconsistent to say "he shall grow up as a
tender plant" and follow it with "But he was wounded for our
transgressions".  
 
Finally, there is a passage in Isaiah 53 which shows us that Jesus was
*certainly* not the messiah.  In Isaiah 53:10, it says that "he shall
see his seed, he shall be prolonged in his days."  This means that the
subject of Isaiah 53 will have children (seed) and will live a long life.  
Any learned Christian will tell you that neither of these is true of the
life of Jesus.  

>Yet
>it pleased God to put him to grief because he makes himself an
>offering for sin.

The Jewish G-d does not recieve pleasure from inflicting people.

>Written, centuries before The Cross, this might easily be a
>newspaper report dictated seconds after the event.

This statement is meaningless for your "proof".

>The real purpose of Messiah's mission is to make reconciliation
>with God on behalf of mankind so that belief in him shall justify
>"many to be accounted righteous" (53:11).

What about the many riteous who perised in Auschwitz?  If you read
Isaiah 53 you can see that they fit the description better than Jesus.
Again, this passage does not refer directly to Jesus.

>Under the Torah, there is no atonement without blood (Lev 17:11,
>Yoma 5a) and Messiah came to shed his blood for a new covenant
>(Luke 22:20).

It has been repeatedly pointed out that in Judaism one man cannot die
for the sins of another.  Murder is an averah (sin).

Even *if* Jesus *was* a sacrifice of the Jewish people, then why was he
not sacrificed as one?  Jewish sacrifices (animals, etc.) were
sacrificed on the altar, not on a cross.  *If* Jesus was the messiah,
and the son of G-d, why wasn't he killed by the Kohanim on the altar
in G-d's house.  Certainly Jews would have been more likely to see this
as a sacrifice for their sake, as opposed to being hung on a cross by
the Romans.  If Jesus *were* the son of G-d, the G-d would have destined
Jesus to die on the altar in the Temple, were all sacrifices for the
Jewish people are made.  This is in accordance with sacrifices for
Jews which cannot be deviated from.

>Anyone wishing to fulfil this prophecy should find themselves
>"sacrificed" on the Passover to validate their Messianic claim. 

There is not support for this, either in your proof or in Judaism
(which you claim to be the same, anyways).  Please support such
statements with citation from Jewish texts (in context).  

>In the prophecy of the 70 weeks I said that the 360 day was only
>suggested this century and under this method Mashiach Nagid has
>to be revealed on Nisan 10, which is exactly what the New
>Testament says about Jesus.

This has repeatedly been disproven on alt.messianic.  You cannot use
invalid "facts" for part of a "proof".  Please refer to all of the
previous posts on this topic for further information (including
"Disproof of 'Proof 1'").  

>So if the New Testament account of his last week in Jerusalem is
>a fraud then it is a very clever one for it has withstood the
>test of that prophecy for 19 centuries.  

Again you have no sources nor support of any type for this assertion.
You will not convice anyone of your messiah out of thin air.

>The passage of Isaiah 53 was always considered Messianic until
>the middle ages.  

Jews do not deny messianic prophecies or the virtues of the prophets.
We only deny that Jesus was the messiah; and we believe that Isaiah 53
equally could refer to any Jew who has suffered (potentially tens of
millions of people).  

>At some point, the sages changed over to interpreting this fine
>piece as referring to the nation Israel.  Whilst Israel IS called
>a servant, it is NEVER referred to as a RIGHTEOUS servant.

Please prove this.  There is no reason to believe that sages followed
*only* one opinion during one period of time and then universally
switched at a later point in time.  This is not how Judaism works.
The sages (I assume that you are referring to the rishonim) were great
chachamim and we follow their lead and expand upon, and adapt, their
teachings.  What you are implying is that some time after the rishonim
there was a universal movement to break from their teaching.  This is
not consistent with Judaism, and therefore is a disregardable without
textual citation (in context) and proof.

>A good test: Show this piece to a few friends.  They will either
>say "Who is that person?" or "Who is that nation?"

>If anyone replies the latter, then please let me know.

A better test:  Study Torah for awhile.  Once you are well informed in
Jewish law (especially regarding the laws of Moshiach) and have the
tools to analyze Vijay's "proofs," decide if Vijay's posts are
actually "proofs" of anything whatsoever.


>Vijay (ucakrvb@uk.ac.ucl)


(*1)  See also (in the Hebrew) Deuteronomy 4:10 (omadtah); the 10
commandments are in the singular (Exodus 20); Exodus 18:13; Exodus
19:2; Isaiah 1:3; Isaiah 40:27; Isaiah 41:8.

(2*)  See also "The History of Anti-Semitism" by Leon Poliakov (an
excellent description of Christian Anti-Semitism), "The Anguish of the
Jews" by Edward Flannery (a Catholic priest), and "While Six Million
Died"  by Arthur Morse.


Gedaliah Friedenberg
-=-Department of Mechanical Engineering
-=-Department of Metallurgy, Mechanics and Materials Science
-=-Michigan State University