From: dchatterjee@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian
Subject: KASHMIR:roses from (P)secularists and Janab Fazili.
Date: 22 Jan 93 04:59:38 GMT
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services


 Hello readers:

  The SCI is witnessing a sudden of communists (like Sanjeev Mahajan and his
 IPSG chamchas) - axing down the Indian consciousness - which unites many of
 us Indians. Many (p)secularists like Buddyraju/ Shyamala Parameswaran/ Chukka
 Srinivas have made it a vow to use all the poisoned arrows of hatred against
 Hindus - whose origin is in India (for all practical purposes for this 
 discussion). These "noble" persons, torchbearer's of progress and liberty of
 the masses, obfuscate the general uninformed public (green fluttering kids) as
 to what the root of discontent is. They (Ms.P and her loyalists) may or may not
 know, but, their main objective is to spread hatred towards Hindus - morally 
 letting them down. These people have always suffered from the *crisis of 
 identity*.

 While I am personally a non-practising Hindu myself, I have chosen to describe
 my inclinations so as to say that a Brahmin is *NOT* defined by birth - 
 otherwise Vishwamitra would *NOT* be a Brahmin. (There are several reasons why
 this *Brahmin by birth* is taken up by commies - as the strongest issue against
 Hinduism and Hindus. One of the main reasons is the total bankruptcy in their
 knowledge and deficient knowledge in Marxist theories. They depend on the
 hearsay of others - unable to think for themselves. These corrupt leeches of
 the society have not read Bertrand Russell - whose main objective in his total
 95 years of life was to show the human side of Karl Marx. How can they ? For
 the CPI - had betrayed the Freedom Movement, calling the father figure of the
 Indian Communist movement Manabendranath Roy a traitor and what not. Indeed,
 it was M.N.Roy who founded the Indian Communist Party *before* the Soviets in
 Tashkent in 1918. The present-day streetwise, commies, filing in ranks like
 sheep and bleating at the age-old, putrid Stalinist mode of "revolution" have
 not read beyond the red essays of Liu Shiao Chi. (A favorite author of the
 CPI(M) party). These indisciplined, immorals can only promote decadence than it
 already is. The Stalinist oppression is what applies to their liking. In the
 U.S - under the Bill of Rights, they have made a IPSG (Indian Progressive Study
 Group) whose main objective is to side with the tyrannical religious groups and
 press demands for Govt. enquiry and etc. and etc. (BTW, nobody says about the
 GOWB atrocities committed between 1977- till date. All blames go to Indira
 Gandhi and her Emergency.) My opinion is that these are spoilers and they are
 causing much harm to the soverignity of India. If you ask them to solve any
 problem, they won't be able to provide an answer, but will definitely tell you
 why it is important to ignore the problem, instead of attempting to solve it.

 The same mode of obfuscation, lynch-mobing with historical evidences, crying
 hoarse over the "denial of human rights, and, police atrocities on the weak
 minority", is a mere catchy tactic that allows them to be hallowed before
 thy presence. It is this unholy mentality that is advantageous to persons like
 Sareer A.Fazili - a completely pro-Pakistani, mouthpiece of the JKLF forces in
 Kashmir. I had quite a row with Mr.Fazili, and, the informed reader may have
 observed with much "chagrin" this feud between Mr.Fazili and myself. I had
 always felt that a large section of the Muslims in India had sympathies with
 Pakistan's attempts to liberate Kashmir as a Islamic state, and, thus bring
 glory to Islam - which means Submission to the Supreme Will. (Many Muslims are
 of the opinion that *all* Hindus have *NOT* read the Qur'an/ Sunnah/ Hadith/
 Sharia and thus spew uninformed hatred towards Muslims. This is utterly false.)
 Many Muslims also claim that Qur'an cannot be read because unless one knows
 Arabic it is impossible to understand Qur'an. (The argument is ridiculous as
 Pickthall and Youssef Ali's praiseworthy translations are available.) However,
 coming back to the point, Fazili has been systematically trying to belittle the
 GOI and India in front of Indians here in the U.S and it is a *shame* to see
 that many Indians (some of them being "intellectual" Bongs) who have also given
 support to Fazili. The following two postings are extremely important as to 
 show how uninformed and spineless we Indians are  ! I had the doubt from the
 very first day, that Fazili is a liar ! In the recent postings of Mr.Rajendar
 Razadan, I am *confirmed*. Mr.Fazili is a Lying Machine - and that he takes
 "personally" ! Wow, what a pretentious person !

 The question I have for these (p)secularists like Ms.P and Balaji and others
 is that why did you keep quiet when 1 million Hindus have been systematically
 annihilated in the Kashmir and the neighborhoods ? What caused you to keep your
 mouth shut ? You guys have been turning the moon into green cheese by almost
 prostrating yourselves on the carcasses of Muslims; what did you do when there
 was terror unleashed on the kashmir valley and people like Fazili have been
 lying to the whole world that *ONLY* Muslims are tortured systematically ?????

 Why did you keep quiet then ?????

  
 So, dear reader, please go thru the two posts and examine for yourself how
 people manipulate history. What is so inglorious about being a Hindu ???

    regards,
   
  - deb chatterjee
 (a good samaritan)


%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Rajender's intial response to Janab Fazili %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

X-VMS-News (.....) soc.culture.indian 98787
From: razdan@ntd.comsat.com (Rajender Razdan)
Subject:Re: RE:Massacre in Kashmir
Date: 12 Jan 93 16:42:41 GMT
Message-ID:<RAZDAN.93Jan12114241@surya.ntd.comsat.com>

In article <C0p68v.M7L@acsu.buffalo.edu> v122npej@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu 
(Sareer A Fazili) writes:
>.... (deleted) .....
tells me that if these were "mistakenly" reported as true, then a retraction
would have been printed with an aside claiming that new evidence argued
against what was originally reported. Kashmiris in the US are extremely well
informed, and the news that we get from IOK is very accurate. Unless one can
prove that a news report was false, or that evidence was presented to it's
contrary, I would hope that grandstanding such as this would not take place.

In conclusion, the FACTS are that GOI is supporting a military presence of over
400,000 soldiers.Don't believe it? I am sure all interested parties can peruse
through early editions of the NYT from Jan., Feb.,and March of 1990 to get the
exact number. Your local Congressman can get the info for you too.
And the press is not allowed in Kashmir. Ed Gargan's article was allowed under
his guise as a tourist! Disbelievers are again welcome to question the US State
Dept., their local Congressman, or even call the AP/UPI and ask who their
Kashmir correspondent is. They are allowed to maintain only a New Delhi
correspondent these days. It is all in black and white. I have no need to offer
more proofs than what I have stated repeatedly in the past. India is showing
her face to the world, and the world is starting to see it. If not the US, then
UK will be the first to aid Kashmiris in their struggle to freedom.


   Sareer A. Fazili
   I am dumbfounded as to the fear that he has of Muslims and
   Islam.Zealotry shows it's face in all other religions, or has he already
   forgotten the Ayodha mosque incident? 
________________________________________________________________________

    The letter by Mr. Fazili represents the typical propaganda churned out
so regularly by Pakistanis and Kashmiri muslims in the U.S. Mr. Fazili
uses the articles in NY Times to prove his point about the Kashmiri
population being harassed by the GOI forces. To the likes of the Fazili's
in this world, let me paraphrase George Bush's words " Do not beleive
everything that you read in newspapers". Is is not amazing that all the
articles in NY Times have shown such silence towards the plight of the
Kashmiri Hindu population who have been systematically driven out of
their homelands by the gun-toting terrorists to which NY Times is acting
as a mouthpiece. We, the Kashmiri Hindus have sent numerous requests to
Mr Gargan and others in NY Times to describe our side of the story. Till
now not a single letter of ours has been published. If this does not smack
of biased reporting I don't know what else does?
    Another interesting incident will shed some more light to the way the
press here operates. You may recall a previous writer in NY Times by the
name of Barbara Crosset, whose articles on India have been consistently
acidic. This lady, BC, gave a lecture in Washington DC (winter 1991)
about "Kashmiri Independance Struggle". She claimed in her talk that the
Kashmiri Hindus left Kashmir because the BJP asked them to do so. I guess
she hadn't expected any Kashmiri Hindus to be present at her talks as she
was visibly embarassed as one by one each one of us (Kashmiri Hindus) got
up and recounted personal descriptions of how we and our families were
forced to flee Kashmir due to unveiled threats on our lives. We asked her
to give any proof that even a single Hindu had fled at the call of the BJP.
She, of course, quickly backtrackked everything she said and told us this
was what she had been informed. On further questioning, it turned out that
the Kashmiri militants had given her a very welcome treatment, shown her
all the select localities and select people who could make up some excellent
stories. The kind treatment by these militants and the later royal treat-
ment by the Pakistani government had won her completely over and she was
a willing and able mouthpiece to all the lies & half-truths from the
militant camps.
     Unfortunately, our Indian PR campaign is light-years away from the
systematic propaganda machine of Pakistan and its muslim allies. Our
(Indian) free press has also shown little balance in its reporting. They
have, in their effort at "fair" reporting, tended to sensationalize any
small indiscretion on the part of the Indian army and paid but lip
service to the systematic brutalizqation of the Kashmiri masses in general,
and the Kashmiri Hindus in particular by the gun-tototing militants. It
is no wonder that the world news reflects these very same stories.
    As for Mr. Fazili's "dumbfoundedness" about the Indian fear of muslim
rule; try selling your argument to your own fellow Hindu bretheren whom
you have so shamelessly and brutally driven out. Let there be no illusion
about Kashmir. The Kashmiri fight for freedom has been instigated by
Pakistani and Afghani mujaheddin and supported by petro-dollars (to
which Mr. Fazili no doubt contributes very substantially). The bran of Islam
that these gun-toting terrorists have brought to Kashmir is one of
total intolerance not only to other religions but also to the saner
voices in their own religion. These terrorists have murdered, in the
most brutal fashion, more than 1,000 Kashmiri pandits and peace loving
muslims; thereby silencing any dissenting voice. We have documented
proofs of these (photographs, living testimony from close of kin etc),
for anyone to see.
    So to Mr. Fazili and his ilk let me just say one final thing. "You
can fool some people all the time, you can fool all the people some of
times, but you cannot fool all people all the time". Truth will
eventually prevail.
--
_______________________________________________________________________________
     Rajender Razdan                                  e-mail address
     COMSAT Labs,                                     razdan@ntd.comsat.com
     Network Technology Division,
     22300 Comsat Drive,                              (301)428-5013 (Work)
     Clarksburg MD 20871                              (301)279-7537 (Home)
________________________________________________________________________________

%%%%%%%%%% Further response by Rajender to Janab Sareer A.Fazili %%%%%%%%%%

X-VMS-News: (......) soc.culture.pakistan:32454
> From: ck@csug.cs.reading.ac.uk (Chandrasekhar Kambhampati)
> Subject:Re: Massacre In Kashmir
> Date: 14 Jan 93 14:48:25 GMT
> Message-ID:<ck.727022905@reading>

> razdan@ntd.comsat.com (Rajender Razdan) writes:
> 
> >In article <C0qzJr.3GC@acsu.buffalo.edu> v122npej@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu 
> >(Sareer A Fazili) writes:
> 
> >>Since it seems as though I am the only Kashmiri sympathizer on this net, 
> >>I have
> >>the only obligation to defend what I think is right in terms of the freedom
> >>movement in Kashmir. When wrongs are committed by the Mujaheddin, such as
> >>misbehavior towards the minorities, or disrespect shown towards women, I 
> >>have
> >>always gone on record as condemning such behavior. It therefore seems only 
> >>fair
> >>that others too keep the same unjaundiced eyes when defending their side 
> >>too. 
> > 
> >Some more junk!
> 
> >>firm believer in Kashmiris gaining their independence from both countries.
> >>Whether I am called a JKLF supporter or whatever, I really do not care. I 
> >>know
> >>where my sympathies and loyalties lie, just as I am sure the  rest of you do
> >>concerning your own loyalties and sympathies.
> >>
> >>The creation of Dar-ul-Islams, as Mr.Chaterjee mentions ad nausean, are a
> >>direct response to the growing communalism in the rest of India. The Ayodha
> >>carnage is still very fresh, and just see how quiet Bombay, Ahmedabad and
> >>Gujarat are these days. Can anybody tell me what the final numbers were in 
> >>the
> >>number of dead as a result of the mosque's destruction, broken down into 
> >>Muslim
> >>and Hindu casualties? What about those in the recent riots that are 
> >>spreading
> >>throughout India? 
> >>
> >>KASHMIRIS HAVE HISTORICALLY BEEN THE MOST SECULAR IN ALL OF THE 
> >>SUBCONTINENT. I
> >>have asked that I be disproven many times, yet I never get direct responses.
> >>Kashmiri Muslims have protected the Pandit minority throughout history, and
> >>the Hindus turned their backs on their Muslim brethren in their time of 
> >>need.
> >>If that is not enough to make previously secular people communal, I don't 
> >>know
> >>what is! 
> >>
> >>Whatever the result of the carnage that is now Kashmir, I only hope that the
> >>people get their vote. Independence, Pakistan, or India, it should be as 
> >>they
> >>want. But, and I never can tell what Mr. Chatterjee's views are on 
> >>secularism,I
> >>hope that it remains the tranquil, SECULAR, state/country that it once was.
> >>
> >>
> >>   Sareer A. Fazili 
> 
> >   It seems that Mr. Fazili has not read my previous posting -- or perhaps
> >conveniently chooses to ignore it just as he conveniently ignores the
> >history of Kashmir (both past and recent) in continuing to perpetuate
> >the myth of communal harmony in Kashmir. The true facts are that Kashmiri
> >history represents one of the most brutal examples of Muslim opression
> >of Kashmiri pandits (as well as Buddhists and Sikhs) in the history of
> >India. Let me provide Mr. fazili with a refresher course in Kashmir
> >history.
> >   We begin our story of opression and destruction of our community,
> >Kashmiri Hindus, at the hands of Muslim fundamentalists and fanatics,
> >sultans and kings, Amman Ullahs and other terrorists, with Sultan
> >Sikander (1389-1413). He perpetrated untold oppression on the Hindus
> >of the valley; tortured them, killed them and destroyed without any
> >mercy the idols of their worship. He earned the notoriety of having
> >razed to the ground the famous 'Vijeshwar' and 'Martand' temples.
> >This fanatic despot and brutish iconoclast was the first to offer
> >the infamous three choices, repeated later by others, to Kashmiri
> >Hindus, "conversion to Islam, exile or death". Tragically enough,
> >the choices were repeated by terrorists of 1990 also. As a result,
> >mass exodus of KPs (Kashmiri Pandits) from the valley took place then
> >as it has in recent history in 1990. The savage Sultan destroyed
> >Hindu scriptures, and it is said that one time, he murdered so many
> >Hindus at a stretch that the sacred thread (Younia) of the murdered
> >weighed 7 maunds (about 900 lbs) which he set fire in a huge pile. The
> >historian Jonaraja laments thus - "Struck by fear, the Brahmins
> >killed themselves by poison, some by ropes and others by drowning
> >themselves in the Dal lake; still others by jumping from precipice
> >or by burning themselves to death". According to traditional sources
> >only eleven Brahmin families were left in the valley.
> >    Sultan Zain-ul-Abedin (1420-1470) popularly known as BUDSHAH
> >was no better than his predecessor in the initial period of his rule,
> >but when successfully treated at the hands of a famous KP physician,
> >Shri Bhatt (who saved him from a fatal disease), a conversion of sorts
> >took place in him and he became more tolerant towards Hindus. This
> >paved the way to the return of a sizable section of the Brahmins to
> >the valley. However, the succeeding Sultans and Kings of the Chak
> >dynasty who ruled Kashmir till 1586, again actively engaged in
> >annihilating the Hindus of the valley, thus, reducing them once
> >again to a negligible minority.
> >   Then came the Mughals. There was recpite for Hindus during their
> >rule till Aurangzeb usurped the throne. Again, the Hindus were subjected
> >to killings and mass conversions. As a result, a group of 16 Kashmiri
> >Hindus, who had heard of Guru Teg Bhadur, left for Punjab to seek
> >his advice and guidance for their survival. They met him on May 25,1675.
> >The Guru remarked that their tale of woe and suffering was of such
> >a magnitude that it needed the sacrifice of a great man. Guru Gobind
> >Singh, upon hearing these remarks from his father took upon himself
> >the task of fighting the injustices of Aurangzeb. The rest is a glorious
> >chapter in the history of Hindus' vitality and inner strength for
> >survival against the savages who committed crimes against them in the
> >name of Islam, the holy Quran, and against the true message of the
> >Prophet (PBOH). The Guru Teg Bahadur left for Delhi, was arrested in
> >Sirhind and beheaded in Chandni Chowk in Delhi on 11th Nov. 1675. This
> >supreme sacrifice of the Guru has enriched the struggle of Kashmiri
> >Hindus to survive in the face of atrocities inflicted upon them.
> >Though the Kashmiri Hindus survived the remaining years of Aurengzeb's
> >rule they did not know the worst was yet to follow.
> >   The fall of the Mughals led to Pathan rule with the conquest of
> >Kashmir by Ahmad-Shah Abdali of Afghanistan in 1752. The Afghan rule
> >was both brutal and in some senses "secular'. Not only were Hindus
> >killed indiscriminately, but also the Shias in the valley. Hence
> >the popular saying in Kashmir: "Kafirun patte gaye Raifzan lar" -
> >which translates as "after the kafirs, ie Hindus, the Shias are
> >next in line for torture". The Sunni Kashmiri muslims were spared
> >physically but devastated economically. The tyranny of these rulers,
> >which lasted till 1819, resulted in the decimation of the Kashmiri
> >Hindu population to a mere 5% to 7%, where once they had been the
> >only population. The "Killing Fields of Kashmir"- Batta Mazar ---
> >where hundreds of murdered Hindus were buried en masse, is still
> >in existence in Srinagar, a reminder to the Kashmiri Hindus of
> >today to the atrocities they have survived.
> >   To end the tyranny of the Pathans, again an illustrious son of
> >the community, played his part by inviting Maharaja Ranjit Singh
> >to end their misery. Though economically exploited, the life of the
> >Hindus was safe during the Dogra rule which lasted from 1846 to 1947.
> >Considering what the community had gone through, this period will
> >stand as a "golden era". This era of peace and progress lasted
> >till 1947.
> >   In the wake of the partition of the subcontinent in 1947, thousands
> >of tribesmen (Qabaelis) assisted by the Armed Forces of Pakistan
> >invaded Kashmir. They devastated almost the whole northern division
> >of Kashmir valley. Again, thousands of Kashmiri Hindus and Sikhs
> >were brutally raped and murdered. Consequent upon the accession of
> >the J&K State to India on Oct. 27, 1947, a full fledged war ensued
> >between India and Pakistan and subsequent events are well known to
> >most Indians.
> >   However, independance did not result in any let down on the
> >opression faced by Kashmiri Hindus at the hands of the brute
> >Muslim majority. The  Muslims have predominated J&K Govt., local
> >buereaucracy and the law and order machinery since 1947. During
> >the National Conference rule from 1947 to Aug. 1953, when Sheik
> >Mohd. Abdullah was the chief minister of the State, the KPs,
> >no doubt, felt secure as far as their lives were concerned but
> >economically they were so hard-pressed that thousands of them had
> >to bid good-bye to their homeland and seek employment in other
> >parts of the country. From 1953 to 1963, when Bakshi Ghulam
> >Mohd. was the CM of the State, the same policy of denying jobs and
> >education to the KPs was continued; resulting in further migration
> >of the Kashmiri Pandits. This exodus has been slowly continuing
> >right upto the events of 1989. This exodus was acheived 'peacefully'
> >by means of the systematic policy of economic strangulation, denial
> >of basic human rights and mistreatment in every walk of life by the
> >brute Muslim majority.
> >    At the same time these Islamic zealots continued to harp on
> >"Secularism in Kashmir". The remaining Kashmiri Hindus had no
> >option left but to brave these hazards passively out of their love
> >for their homeland, as well as for upholding the national flag and
> >honor in Kashmir, for which their continued presence in Kashmir was
> >a must. But the Islamic fundamentalism preached by Pakistan, Iran
> >and Saudi Arabia and the establishment of a nexus between the
> >kashmiri Muslim politicians, bureaucracy, intellectuals, buisinessmen
> >and youth with the support of Saudi money, Iranian literature and
> >Pakistani muscle, prepared the ground for the final showdown. In this
> >gameplan, Kashmiri Hindus were regarded as the vanguard of India in
> >Kashmir and were to be uprooted and decimated.
> >   The first organized attacks on Kashmiri Hindus was launched in
> >the third week of Feb. 1986 when 56 temples and 150 houses were burnt
> >in a single day in the district of Anantnag. (Were was the outcry of  
> >pseudo-secular pseudo-intellectual Indians!!). More than 1500 Hindu
> >houses were looted. The Anantnag episode was enacted to test the
> >vulnerability of the Kashmiri Hindus, the power and presence of the
> >Indian State as represented by its security forces and other organs.
> >Seeing that nobody was interested in the security of this fronteir
> >state and more so its helpless Hindu minority, the Muslim funda-
> >mentalists were emboldened to unfold their new plans.
> >    Operation Topaz of Pakistani dictator Zia-ul-Haq to snatch away
> >Kashmir leading to dismemberment of India was launched in 1988.
> >Under this scheme Kashmiri Hindus were to be exterminated to
> >achieve the goal of 'Islamization' of Kashmir and its final merger
> >with Pakistan. Now, open threats in the form of individual letters,
> >posters and advertisements/announcements published in local Urdu
> >newspapers were issued asking Kashmiri Hindus to leave the valley
> >or face death. Seeing that it did not result in the desired exodus,
> >they decided to instill fear in them by continuously announcing over
> >public address systems that the Hindus should leave at once, or
> >else it would be too late. Then started the process of killings of
> >influential and respected Hindus in a select manner.
> >   Towards the end of 1989, armed muslim terrorists openly began
> >indiscriminate killings of all non-muslims, forcing a mass exodus
> >of the non-muslim population. They did so to create a 'pure'
> >Islamic state and to take forcible possession of the vacated houses
> >and property left behind by the fleeing and panic-striken Hindus.
> >As of late 1991, more than 800 Kashmiri Hindus, about 100 non-
> >Kashmiri Hindus and about a dozen Sikhs have been murdered in the most
> >brutal and gruesome manner. About 150 Kashmiri Muslims have also
> >been murdered because they acted as good neighbours to Hindus. The
> >victims were either strangulated or their throats were slit or were
> >cut limb to limb. In many cases the militants pierced iron rods into
> >the body and literally skinned them alive. The disfigured bodies
> >were left to decompose. There was nobody to cremate the dead or perform
> >their last rites, which in most cases had to be performed by security
> >forces. The dependents of the deceased are living in inhuman
> >conditions in Jammu and elsewhere. Hundreds of displaced Hindus have
> >died in Jammu and other places due to psychological shock and trauma.
> >     A few thousand Kashmiri Hindus are still left in Kashmir, as
> >they do not have the means to shift to safer places. Some isolated
> >families living in far off corners are not able to leave there places
> >under threat of dire consequences by the surrounding Muslim population
> >who are using these helpless Hindus as hostages or showpieces of
> >their secularism.
> >   The vacant houses of Hindus in Kashmir have been looted. The schools
> >other educational and religious institutions owned by the Hindus are
> >being blasted or burnt. In short, all traces of a 5,000 years-old
> >Hindu civilization in Kashmir have been wiped out.
> >   The greatest irony of the whole tragedy is that this unprecedented
> >genocide of Kashmiri Hindus has gone unnoticed and unrecorded, what
> >to speak of condemnation in national and international media. It is
> >high-time that the peace-loving citizens of India nad other countries
> >see for themselves the gruesome manner in which the Hindus have been
> >murdered by the Islamic  fanatic.
> >   To Mr. Fazili, I ask, pleace stop your 'drama' of tears for the
> >killed innocents. Remember, it is your money and your support that
> >is allowing all this carnage to happen in Kashmir. If not for humanity's
> >sake have some shame in the name of Allah, to who's eyes your actions
> >are not hidden.
> > 
> 
> 
> >--
> >_____________________________________________________________________________
> >     Rajender Razdan                                  e-mail address
> >     COMSAT Labs,                                     razdan@ntd.comsat.com
> >     Network Technology Division,
> >     22300 Comsat Drive,                              (301)428-5013 (Work)
> >     Clarksburg MD 20871                              (301)279-7537 (Home)
> >_____________________________________________________________________________
Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian