From: ald@clipper.ingr.com (Al Date)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.theory
Subject: Re: The Age of Consent    was Libertarian Platform
Date: 29 Jul 92 22:13:03 GMT
Organization: Intergraph Advanced Processor Division - Palo Alto, CA

In article <archer.106@utkux1.utk.edu> archer@utkux1.utk.edu (T. Archer) writes:
>In article <1992Jul20.215709.8762@tss.com> burke@tss.com (Jim Burke) writes:
>
>>In article <archer.93@utkux1.utk.edu>, archer@utkux1.utk.edu (T. Archer) writes:
>
>>|> >No minimum drinking age, eh?  Pretty scarey to me...
>>|> 
>>|> Why?  Because it makes individuals responsible for their actions?  I can see 
>>|> how that would scare some people.
>
>>How does giving a fifteen year old the right to get drunk make him 
>>responsible for his actions?  Children are children and their actions
>>need to be subject to control.  
>
>Yes, and it is the job of the parents to control them, not the state.  
>Banning alchol sales to minors has done nothing to curb drinking by minors, 
>it has just increased the taboo appeal.

Actually, I have heard that other drugs are more readily available
than booze to teenagers.  

>  Actions of the state cannot 
>compensate for bad parenting.  And the state has no business in the 
>parenting business.

Ask any parent if she has control over her teenagers.  If not,
then teenagers should be held to be adults, legally speaking.
They should pay rent, be allowed to work for peanuts, be liable
for contracts, whatever it takes.  

Dont the Hebrews say that a boy becomes a man at puberty?

>
>>This silliness about giving a 5 year old
>>full adult rights is just plain goofy, and until the Libertarians stop 
>>saying goofy silly things like this, they will remain a fringe party with
>>little popular support.
>
>
>Sounds like the members of NAMBLA should all be Libertarians then.  You 
>>see no need for laws to prevent a 35 year old man from having sex with
>>a six year old girl?  But what if she consents?  This Libertarian stuff
>>goes from goofy, to scarey, to downright dangerous.
>

I find it laughable.

The funny thing is that the "freedom for children" plank was
written by Murray Rothbard when he was having anarchist hallucinations--
it was adopted without much comment or thought--
and he would probably renounce it himself, today.  The problem is that
the LP is set up so that it is WAY HARD to change any of the planks
once they get in there, even if 3/4 of the LP members want it to be
changed.

I agree that it is a loony plank, borne of a natural rights fantasy
run rampant.  At one time, the LP was almost wholely operated
by people whose entire basis of political philosophy was the
natural rights argument, and Rothbard was something of a 
fountainhead of interpretations thereof.  So when he came up 
with the freedom for children plank, no one wanted to attack it,
because it would've required questioning of the entire natural
rights of man dogma on which the Party was founded, and taking
on "Mr. Libertarian."

At least that is what I have heard.  
Thankfully, there is much more diversity in the LP these days,
as classical liberalism / economic utilitarianism and 
what we might call "liberal conservatism" and "conservative liberalism"
have sought a home.

And, let's face it, a lot of libertarians had kids in the last decade,
and learned some hard lessons about life.  (8-)


>The responsability for choices rests with the individual, regardless of 
>their age.  Properly raised, the child will not give consent, as her parents 
>will have taught her.  State activity is no substitute for good parenting.

Look.  There is no absolute moment at which people all become able to
give consent, so we have to choose an arbitrary point.  18 is obviously
way to high, 6 is way too low.

PUBERTY as the age of consent is the only reasonable answer to this 
dilemma, one which is quite common in human societies.

It may be arbitrary, but it makes a lot more sense than what we
have today.  Go ahead, flame me.  


--Al Date
Xref: sparky talk.politics.misc:35182 alt.politics.clinton:196