From: efstse@epsilon.eecs.nwu.edu (Serafim Efstratiadis)
Subject: Oh, yeah, we remember alright... [Re: Yes, Remember Cyprus]
Organization: EECS Department, Northwestern University
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 00:13:28 GMT
Expires: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 05:00:00 GMT

In article <Bu0uML.E11@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> bse@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Besime Erin) writes:
>In article <BtzD8x.Is6@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ) writes:
>>bse@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Besime Erin) writes:
>>
>>>Turkey came to STOP the aggression not to start it. However undesirable today's
>>>situation in Cyprus might be to the Greek Cypriots and may be to some Turkish 
>>>Cypriots, blood has not been shed on the island for the past 18 years. 
>>
>> Therefore, every 50 years lets make a war, and then get some rest.
>> Or, if we want to stop the crimes in LA, lets nuck the place! 
>>
>> Your argument sucks.
>
>Yours does too.
>
>The ethnic fights had STARTED in Cyprus as early as 1958 and YOU very well
>know that!!!! 
> 
>The Greek Cypriots HAD THE POWER, THE ARMS, THE CONTROL IN THE GOVERNMENT  
>while the Turkish Cypriots were the minority being pushed around, killed,
>and mistreated. We did have a defense organization fighting back which people 
>who have been following this net for a while must know well by now BUT
>we are talking ~~~550,000 community (Greek Cypriots) using their resources
>(lethal, economical etc etc.) against a ~150,000 community (Turkish Cypriots).
>You tell me who would be the aggressors and who would be the victims in this 
>case. 

I can not believe my eyes! Check out this argument:
The Greek Cypriots were 4 times more than the Turkish Cypriots
The Greek Cypriots were wealthier thn the Turkish Cypriots
Therefore (according to Besime):
The Greek Cypriots were aggressors and the Turkish Cypriots were victims!!

I am extatic! Can you believe this guy?

BTW, your number on the size of the Turkish Cypriot population is
wrong. The Turkish Cypriots were about 120,000 in 1974.
This means (according to Besime of course) that the Greek Cypriots
were EVEN WORSE than that... Oh, boy... and then one expects that
the negotiations will ever work... I am disappointed.

I said it in the past I will say it again. If you claim that the
Greek Cypriots were such bad aggressors, in this case racist and they
could/can live peacefully with a minority, then you automatically
claim that Greeks in general are that way. Then, it can be easily
shown that your claims are false since the Muslim minority in Thrace, Greece,
(which 50% are considered a Turkish minority) is literally thriving.
That is, it's standard of living is THREE TIMES higher than that in Turkey.
They have been in peace in Greece for more than 80 years.

Last time a mentioned this I got no response from you Besime.
Hey, what do you say? Are you refuting this? Or are you really claiming
that the Greek Cypriots are genetically different than the rest of
the Greeks and their genetic code says: "kill them Turks"? Hm?

>> The double Turkish invasion resulted in thousand deads. Killing people does
>> not justify any purpose.
>
>Yeah, right. 
>
>You have killed and tortured who knows how many Turkish Cypriots over the
>period 1958-1974 ( 16 YEARS ) and you are telling me the Turkish Army killed
>more people than you have in only 1 MONTH!

Another funny argument here! Besime, sorry to say that but you are funny.
I mean, how long dies it take for 20,000-30,000 soldiers, who are ordered
to occupy a defenseless island, to kill say 1,000 people? Hm? Several
centuries, maybe? I think you haven't realized what has happened in Cyprus.
Yeah, yeah, you say you are a Turkish Cypriot. OK, you are. Do you
realize my friend that the Turkish governement has done you more harm
and suffering in 1 month, than you could ever imagine? They USED YOU
as an excuse to expand southwards. Their greedy minds could not keep
their hands off such an important island and they framed up you Cypriots
so that this conflict will be an excuse to INVADE AND OCCUPY Cyprus.
It is an ILLEGAL OCCUPATION damn it, and you dare deny it?

>1974 was a military intervention while 1958-1974 was THE ETHNIC CLEANSING OF 
>THE TURKISH CYPRIOTS.1974 Peace Operation was literally asked for by 
>the Greek Cypriots and Greeks
>(1974 military takeover of the Cyprus Government controlled by the Greek army, 
>dreams of ENOSIS etc etc.) while I don't believe Turkish Cypriots had asked
>to be cleansed !!!! 

This is fat lie. On July 1974 the Greek army was not in position to do
any operation in Cyprus. Greece was in a state of confusion and it was
struggling to get rid of the foreign imposed junta. Stop lying.

>>>Before then, ethnic fights were at their peak!!! The lives of 
>>>the Turkish Cypriots were in danger !
>>
>> Yes, we know.  Everywhere the lives of Turks are in danger.  And the
>> mother Turkey is always willing to make cleansing, kill thousands of innocent
>> people in order to save the lives of some Turks. And you think this is right!
>                                       ^^^^^^^^^^    
>Those some Turks are the TURKISH CYPRIOTS. We are also people of CYPRUS, we willALWAYS BE.... We have as much right to CYPRUS as the Greek Cypriots do.
>Turkey chose to NOT WATCH US DIE and acted in 1974. We are GRATEFUL, 
>we are GRATEFUL and we are GRATEFUL. Otherwise we were going to have the same
>fate as the Bosnians in former Yugoslavia now do since noone has been brave 
>enough (or human enough) to help them yet and don't tell me religion is not 
>not a factor in this either. We the Turkish Cypriots are also muslims 
>so the West would have and was reacting the same way(reluctant to move their
>fingers that is) like they now do towards the Bosnians. 

Look at a guy who is grateful to Turkey! Mamma mia! First, of all
my friend you forget that the Turkish Cypriots were citizens of the Republic
of Cyprus. Although a minority THEY DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO SELL THEIR
COUNTRY TO TURKEY even if they wish it. Do you get that? Why because they
are the minority and in a democratic country the majority decides.
If the 82% of the people of Cyprus wanted that the island be uniified with
Greece, then, that's OK. Your future would be JUST AS IT IS THE PRESENT
for the Muslim minority in Thrace, Greece: Beautiful compared to the
conditions in Turkey. Because Greece is stable, democratic and prosperous
country and it is a part of the European Community, the wealthiest
communist in the world. Do you get that, Besime?

>> Do you think stupidity is a virtue?
>>
>
>Your stupidity seems to be a virtue to you! 

Let's not have that, please.

>>>Remembering and reiterating the past will NOT help Theodore! IT simply WILL NOT!
>>
>> Remembering always helps. History repeats itself.  Tell your Master Untrue
>
>Yea,that's right.
>
>History could repeat itself. That's why we need to make sure we don't fall
>into the same trap as in 1960-1974 if we wish to continue to live! 

Mamma-mia... You are really stubborn, Besime. Why don't you go to Greece
to have a raki and see how the Muslims are treated there. You'll like it.
Believe me. At least it is much-much better than the way MUSLIMS are
treated in Turkey LET ALONE CHRISTIANS!!!!!!!!

>> Totally Lying Unit to stop provoking us.  The same applies to the hypocrite
>> Mr. Akgun.  You have commited the bigest crime in Cyprus, you want now
>> to just forget it?
>
>Hey you are talking to a Turkish Cypriot who knows very well how the people of
>her community were mistreated,by the Greek Cypriots, pushed around and
>( I met an elderly, very friendly man at the Dentist when I was home only a 
>little while ago). He said while we were discussing the recent develpments 
>in the Cyprus issue that he was taking his very
>sick,almost dying child to the doctor when he was stopped by the Greek Cypriot
>police, hit in the back strongly with the back of a rifle and fell to the 
>ground with his almost dying child in his arms!!!
>
>This is only one(actually very mild) incident among the very many!!!
>
>>>I wish to keep the lessons from the painful experiences in the past and 
>>>benefit from them in the future but I don't want them hinder my vision
>>>by CONSTANTLY HATING the other side which you seem to be doing!  
>>
>> You have moved 200,000 people out of their homes.  Thousands of people are
>> missing in action; Turkey refuses to answer what happened to those people.
>> You think is so easy to forget?  When some people can see their houses
>> some meters away into the Turkish zone, is it so easy to forget?
>>
>
>Try to see the other side's case too for once. 
>We the TUrkish CYpriots have lost
>people and left property in the South as well.

WHO HAS DRAWN THE LINE, BESIME? THE GREEK CYPRIOTS? OR YOUR FAVORITE TURKEY?
Wake up, Besime. The Turkish government has f*cked all Cypriots up.

>I can look at my mother's families house from the green line in Nicosia
>(It's also on the other side) too. Propotionately my people have been
>displaced from their homes too and They had started living in refugee camps
>LONG BEFORE 1974. 
>
>I have a counterargument to make for every argument you make to me about 
>Cyprus so once again continue your efforts to have the world believe that
>you are the innoncent angels in this case WHEN YOU CLEARLY AREN'T and WHEN
>YOU KNOW IT BUT YOU FAIL TO ADMIT IT.
>
>> And just how can someone benefit from the experiences of the past?  The
>> experience teaches me the following:  murder thousands of people, make
>> ethnic cleansing, and expect nothing to hapen to you.  This is what
>> the experience in Cyprus teaches me !!!
>>
>> Has Germany paid for her crimes? Yes.
>> Has Iraq paid for its crimes? Yes.
>> Has Turkey paid for her crimes? No !!!!
>  Has Greece and the Greek Cypriots paid for their crimes ? Only to a certain
>                                               extent. Thanks to Turkey!

And finally Besime says: "Thank you Turkey for you came, divided the island,
killed Greek Cypriots, set us apart, brought 80,000 of your pourest Anatolians
to the island, pus us Turkish Cypriots are in an ever worst condition, the
economy is nonexistent, no infrastructure, 20,000 Turkish soldiers are roaming
the island, you destroyed the properties and culture heritage of the Greek
Cypriots in the occupied territory, etc."  You are a pitiful person Besime.
I suppose, if all Turkish Cypriots are like that, then you deserve your fate.

>>---> Panos Tamamidis
>>     University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
>
>Besime Erin

take care my friend

Serafim.
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