From: ramon@convex.com (Ramon Dominguez)
Subject: Re: how to get to root of strange behavior
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 19:00:33 GMT
Organization: The Arts Babblative and Scribblative
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In article <BzEzuo.LIM@newsflash.concordia.ca> rwarren@vax2.concordia.ca (Rosemary from Montreal) writes:
=>>I would invite her to email me if she feels
=>>	offended by what I wrote
=>here i am ramon.  boy when i asked for someone to pick me apart you took it 
=>literally!

	I'd like to emphasize again that I addressing, not even all those who
	took your side, but those who attacked and attributed all sorts of
	evil behavior to the man, just because he is the man.  The reason I
	reposted your article was so that it could be examined for any
	testimony from you about wrongdoing on his part.  Beside apparently
	not wanting to be your lover even you accused him of no crime yet most
	of the replies condemned him.  That is pure sexism.  All men are not
	evil.  I am not evil.  I'll say it again, I didn't mean to hurt *you*,
	I meant to open other people's eyes to what *they* were doing.

=>>	It's hard to believe how you all are taking rwarren's side on this.
=>>	You are inventing stuff that wasn't even implied in the original post.
=>actually, poor rosemary warren needs someone on her side right now.  she's 
=>going through something awful in her life right now, between her 
=>"boyfriend", being kicked out of (an anglican, not catholic) church for 
=>questioning the beliefs and actions of the clergy and parishioners and 
=>trying to stop being (mentally) abused by the minister (it's a 
=>long story worthy of another article), juggling work and night school 
=>(tonight is the end of the first of 4 semesters, and i've already screwed 
=>up my jcl final because i've been so upset) listening to my mother talk about 
=>my father (and if i call him "that creep you married" she starts 
=>boo-hooing) and whatever else life throws at you.  she has literally no one 
=>to turn to and hoped that someone in silicon heaven could help.  (another 
=>THANK YOU to the _nice_ people out there who took time to write.)

	I am a nice person too.  I said some nasty things, but I wasn't talking
	to you at the time.  I'll be replying to your email separately.

=>>	I've included the original post below for quick reference, read it.
=>>	Nowhere does she even imply that he has used her for ANYTHING.
=>have you read the followup(s)?
=>
=>>	"Lower form of life"?  Oh yes, I get it: male.  All together now!
=>>		MAN   BAD!
=>>		WOMAN GOOD!
=>if more people thought this way perhaps there would be less oppression of 
=>women worldwide.

	If you really feel this way, why don't you stay away from men?
	At any rate, since this idea is about as sexist as anything, I
	believe that if more people thought this way there would be more
	oppression of both sexes.

=>>	It certainly sounds like this guy has tried to get the message across
=>>	that he doesn't want to have anything to do with her anymore.  Given
=>>	the fact that she doesn't sound like the most well-adjusted personality
=>>	in the world, I'm not surprised that he hasn't tried the more direct
=>>	approach of simply telling her to leave him alone.  Given the tone of
=>>	her post and the request for simple and effective espionage techniques,
=>>	this really sounds like a "Fatal Attraction"-esque case and her "friend"
=>>	may actually be afraid of the consequences if he were to give her the
=>>	"decent goodbye" that she claims she would be satisfied with.
=>while i have been ticked off enough to threaten to make Rocky Mountain
=>Oysters (see rec.food.cooking or take a guess 
=>which part(s) are involved) or "sunday pot roast" (using his name as a pun) 
=>out of him, i do not feel like trading my nice comfy bed for a jail 
=>cell or losing my job.  have you ever heard of a relationship without one 
=>single disagreement?!?  not me!

	So the only thing holding you back is possibly losing your freedom
	or your job, eh?  You don't think it's just plain *wrong* to injure
	or kill someone just because they don't want to be friends with you?
	You don't think that maybe that's *why* they don't want to be friends
	with you?

	You accused him of being "rough", but then you said that he'd never
	hit you.  You then admitted that YOU had HIT HIM, and you've
	threatened him.  How come you're surprised that he wants to break
	things off with you.  You are abusive.  You want him to take you out
	and pay for everything when you make more money and he works three
	jobs, you physically and verbally assault him, and you want him treat
	you nicely.  Think about it.

=>btw, i saw fatal attraction.  remember, however, in that story a married man 
=>was cheating 
=>on his wife -- sunday is single.  (behavior to the contrary)

	Irrelevant.  When the man wanted to break off the affair, the woman
	responded with "unhealthy" (read: murderously psychotic) behavior.
	That is the core of the story of the film.

=>>	rwarren is the one with the "strange behavior" in this case.
=>is it too much to ask for someone to treat me like a human being, instead 
=>of their cheap slut?  and to 
=>go out on dates and have fun like a "normal" person instead of being by 
=>myself all the time?

	No, it's not too much to ask.  You just have to find someone who will
	say "yes" willingly as opposed for beating this one guy into
	submission.  Take a chance and meet new people, you certainly couldn't
	experience any more rejection than what you're getting right now.

=>remember, it was SUNDAY who came up to me that magical evening 4 years ago, 
=>kissed me,  and changed my life.  i didn't go chasing after him -- i didn't 
=>have to (then).

	You don't have to now, either.  Listen, everyone gets dumped or dumps
	someone else (as a lover) at one time or another.  Certainly, I've
	experienced both sides.  It's painful either way, but you can't hang
	on forever.  Just move on.  I realize that you don't want to be alone.
	You don't have to be alone, but to make new friends you have to be
	nice to people, and you have to be willing to go out on a limb risking
	rejection.  If you find a new friend taking advantage of you, dump
	them immediately.  Just get out there and try!

=>>Please take the time to reread
=>>	the original posting and then tell me where the man has committed any
=>>	crime other than dropping heavyhanded hints that he is not interested
=>>	in a relationship with rwarren.
=>as you are reading it, remember that i have left out a chunk for 
=>clarity and brevity.  remember also that i have been hurt before by other 
=>people (sweethearts and otherwise).  love for me equals a long-term 
=>commitment, not a dalliance of a couple of years or less.

	Commitment has to come freely and willingly from both parties or it
	simply doesn't work.  You can't lock someone else into a relationship,
	involuntarily, forever.  Even if you could, how satisfying would
	it be?

=>>	Men do not exist for the pleasure of women, nor vice versa.  You
=>>	are not entitled to a relationship with a particular individual
=>>	because you want one, to do other than to accept that fact gracefully
=>>	is childish, immature, or worse.
=>why don't you just come out and say what i've been told from day one about 
=>anything and everything by everyone:
=>
=>		WHAT YOU WANT DOESN'T MATTER.
=>
=>a typical MCP comment.   if nothing else, you have shown us all a 
=>different (and flawed) perspective on the situation.

	Well, here I have to reiterate that I wasn't really addressing your
	problem in my article.  I do believe that what you want matters.  It's
	just that
		(1) Wanting something doesn't automatically make you entitled
		    to have it, even if you want it very much.

		(2) I think you're going about getting love in the wrong way.

	If you really hate men, believe the "man bad, woman good" thing,
	then men will pick up on that and stay away from you.  I've had a
	relationship with a girl who had this attitude, really just thought
	guys were all pigs, but wanted a boyfriend anyway.  She treated me
	real nice until she thought she had me hooked for good, then she showed
	her true colors.
	
	It hurts when you discover you've been used, but, you know, she didn't
	really think guys had any feelings or that they were at all human.
	I think you need to change your attitude to find someone to be happily,
	and mutually, in love with.

-- 
Ramon Dominguez             | "Work is the curse of the drinking class"       
Convex Computer Corporation |                            --Oscar Wilde
ramon@convex.com            | "Ceci n'est pas une .signature file"
Newsgroups: soc.couples