HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tar@math.ksu.edu (Tim Ramsey)
Newsgroups: news.admin
Subject: Re: Hasan B Mutlu
Date: 4 Sep 92 07:33:03 GMT
Article-I.D.: hilbert.1886kgINNjrd
Organization: Dept. of Mathematics, Kansas State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: hilbert.math.ksu.edu
X-Disclaimer: I speak for myself, no one else.

jp@tygra.Michigan.COM (John Palmer) writes:

>>Then there's the comp.newprod approval forgery, the virtual lawyers JP
>>threatens to sic on everyone who posts anything he doesn't like, etc.,
>>etc.

>All of the above statements are bullshit.

Oh?  I've received email from JP threatening to sic his lawyer on me.
Here's an excerpt:

] From: jp@tygra.Michigan.COM (John Palmer)
] To: sharkey!math.ksu.edu!tar@uunet.UU.NET
] Date: Fri, 21 Jun 91 11:56 EDT
] Message-Id: <m0jqnqx-0000xtC@tygra.Michigan.COM>
] Subject: Re: CAT-TALK

] >I second this.  Take your business elsewhere.

] I want a public apology to this company posted in all of the groups
] mentioned in the newsgroups line above. Failure to do so will leave
] me no choice but to instruct my attorney to begin proceedings to  
] effect a legal remedy to this situation.

] You will tell them that nothing has been proven and that you posted
] what you did in haste.

] John Palmer
] President
] Detroit Direct Marketing, Inc.

] cc: file
] William Schaefer, Esq. 

You have more problems with forgeries than anyone else on the net.
Why is that, do you think, JP?

-- 
    Tim Ramsey, 913.532.6750
    Department of Mathematics
    Kansas State University
From: clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca (Chris Lewis)
Newsgroups: news.admin
Subject: Re: "Computers graphic when it comes to porn"
Date: 2 Sep 92 02:38:31 GMT
Organization: Elegant Communications Inc., Ottawa, Canada

In article <1992Aug29.153838.31459@m.cs.uiuc.edu> kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie) writes:
>Although, Hitler and his Brown Shirts were free to speak, his
>opposition wasn't. Why? Because his Brown Shirts would beat up or kill
>the opposition and the government would not stop the violence.

If Hitler had been born mute and dyslexic, how would the Brown
Shirts have known what to do?

Part of the problem with your argument is that by the time that
violence is being used, it may be too late to do anything about
it.  Ie: if the army has been converted.
-- 
Chris Lewis; clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca; Phone: Canada 613 832-0541
Psroff 3.0 info: psroff-request@ferret.ocunix.on.ca
Ferret list: ferret-request@ferret.ocunix.on.ca
Newsgroups: news.admin
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: Hasan B Mutlu
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 22:14:42 GMT

c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos) writes:
>This is dragging on, and on, and on... please bear with me. Does your site
>provide accounts on demand? Come to think of it, could you give ME an
>account? We only get comp.* and news.* groups here. 

Not this site, but I run a BBS connected to netnews. You are welcome
to that number. 
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

                  "Better to be safe than to be sorry" 
   is a remark of value only when these are the actual alternatives.
Newsgroups: news.admin.misc,news.admin
From: eggert@twinsun.com (Paul Eggert)
Subject: nonconforming news Message-IDs of last week
Organization: Twin Sun, Inc
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 18:28:05 GMT

Here is a list of Message-IDs discarded by twinsun's news software last week
because they do not conform to the Internet RFC 1036 and RFC 822 standards.
If a Message-ID from your site is on this list,
your news or mail software is probably broken and should get fixed.
The headings describe the probable reason for nonconformance.

(unknown cause)

	<ben.2@acct@uci.edu>

	<410004@hpbbm.bbn.hp.com.>

	<sgiri@medics.jsc.nasa.gov.19.0@aios.jsc.nasa.gov>

	<21.Aug.1992,.12:53:48.TPM@uk.ac.rl.ib>

NewsWatcher 1.3d1 (obsolete)

	<braden-200892105606@lincolnshire.diag.stratus.com.>
	<braden-200892174759@lincolnshire.diag.stratus.com.>

	<mwalker-180892092044@mwalker1.npd.provo.novell.com.>
	<mwalker-180892095459@mwalker1.npd.provo.novell.com.>
	<mwalker-180892163404@mwalker1.npd.provo.novell.com.>
	<mwalker-180892164221@mwalker1.npd.provo.novell.com.>
	<mwalker-200892090359@mwalker1.npd.provo.novell.com.>
	<mwalker-200892092643@mwalker1.npd.provo.novell.com.>
	<mwalker-200892172501@mwalker1.npd.provo.novell.com.>
	<mwalker-200892174311@mwalker1.npd.provo.novell.com.>
	<mwalker-240892135457@mwalker1.npd.provo.novell.com.>
	<mwalker-240892161316@mwalker1.npd.provo.novell.com.>

sendmail configuration botch + mail-to-news gateway botch

	<9208191810.AA00417@.nairobi.inel.gov.inel.gov.>
	<9208241809.AA00474@.nairobi.inel.gov.inel.gov.>

	<9208180715.AA16022@>

	<9208240037.AA01247@mars.cygnus.com.>
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Newsgroups: news.admin
Subject: Re: Hasan B Mutlu
Date: 28 Aug 92 18:47:06 GMT
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA

by403@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos) writes:
>Sure, he has a right to post. But the rest of the net has a right NOT
>to be subjected to the practices above. Enough is Enough. 
>I can understand your position; he's your customer and as such you
>want to keep him satisfied. But please think of the consequences to
>the rest of the net of what Mutlu does thru your system. It is your
>right to have him as customer, it is his right to post as much as
>he wants to wherever he wants, and it is our (collectively I hope)
>right to complain ad infinitum about him.... 

Anyone thinking of revoking his posting privs better think long and
hard about the standard used to determine whether net.access should
be denied, and where that comes from.

Personally, if he is posting news and not screwing up the flow of it,
he's fine by me. IF I get wind of the fact that he is being denied
news access simply because he's posted lots of articles...I will grant
him access. 
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

Supporter (n.) - 1. Someone who will say anything.
Newsgroups: news.admin
From: bengtl@maths.lth.se (Bengt Larsson)
Newsgroups: news.admin,comp.org.eff.talk,misc.legal.computing
Subject: Re: Why we need a "Copyright: " field (was: Re: NetNews/CD . . .)
Date: 29 Aug 92 20:38:34 GMT
Organization: Lund Institute of Technology, Sweden

In article <1992Aug25.232718.10258@gtephx.UUCP> forda@gtephx.UUCP (Andrew Ford @ AGCS, Phoenix, Arizona) writes:
>In article <1992Aug21.085509.10333@lth.se>, bengtl@maths.lth.se (Bengt Larsson) writes:
>> In article <23480@alice.att.com> jj@alice.UUCP (jj@alice.att.com, curmudgeon and clueless white boy) writes:
>> >"alt" was part of USENET.  It was created specifically because
>> >it was NOT part of USENET.  Learn the facts before you flame
>> >away, guy.
>> 
>> I think I agree with you on principles, but do climb off your
>> high horse, jj.
>
>Below you will note a number of referenece to the alt hierarchy
>in various news.announce.newuser periodic postings.  
>Perhaps the most interesting is the reference to the netnews
>software available in alt.sources.
>
>What is clear to me is that some people hold a pristine
>vision of netnews that excludes alt, pay for read, and
>CD ROMS.  It also seems that these people would rather 
>deny reality and verbally attack those who try slapping
>reality in their face.

I don't think it's very productive to discuss what "Usenet" is.
It just gets to be an "is/is not" argument. It's much more interesting
what you could expect from posting to Usenet than what you call it.

jj is right, alt was created specifically to not be Usenet (no rules).

>The alt (and other hierarchies) may not be part of the usenet
>you grew to love and cherish, but, as has been said, usenet
>is a constantly growing community.  

When I talked about copyrights on "Usenet" I didn't think of alt.
Indeed, I don't know what to think about copyrights on newsgroups in
alt. I assumed mainstream (big 7). 

Bengt L.
-- 
Bengt Larsson - bengtl@maths.lth.se
Newsgroups: news.admin
From: jp@tygra.Michigan.COM (John Palmer)
Subject: Re: Hasan B Mutlu
Organization: CAT-TALK Conferencing Network, Detroit, MI
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 92 07:24:30 GMT
Followup-To: alt.asshole.nakamura

In article <1822qtINN760@hilbert.math.ksu.edu> tar@math.ksu.edu (Tim Ramsey) writes:
>jp@tygra.Michigan.COM (John Palmer) writes:
>
>>I seem to recall someone else in the past who was accused of cancelling
>>others postings (although it was not done intentionally, but due to 
>>local postings getting out on the net...). 
>
>>Lets see if you are all so quick to condemn ses@cmns-moon.think.com as you
>>were to condemn this other fellow. Then we'll see if double standards
>>exist....
>
>Hmm.  According to my notes (I keep lots of old mail, you see), this
>"someone else" (JP, for those who don't know who JP is referring to)
>once threatened to cancel any articles posted to alt.tv.tiny-toon that
>he didn't think belonged there.  Several people objected to this, so JP
>posted a note saying he wasn't serious about doing this.  Right after
>that a batch of a.t.tt postings were cancelled by JP.  I posted a note
>to news.admin with the cancel messages.  JP first denied doing it, then
>said the cancels weren't meant to escape his site, then denied doing
>it.  Then he claimed that he didn't have anything to do with any of the
>above, that it was done by a disgruntled former CAT-TALK subscriber who
>forged it all in JP's name.  <confused look>
>
>Then there's the comp.newprod approval forgery, the virtual lawyers JP
>threatens to sic on everyone who posts anything he doesn't like, etc.,
>etc.
>

All of the above statements are bullshit. The postings which you referred
to were forged - I've said that time and time again. To add to the problem,
assholes like Sean Faigin and Jiro Nakamura continue to fabricate more lies 
as well as composing messages that they claimed that I sent to them. 
 
There are about 15 people in on this little game. Its getting kind of
stale guys.....
From: eager@eagercon.com (Michael J. Eager)
Newsgroups: news.admin
Subject: PPP protocol
Date: 28 Aug 92 03:49:48 GMT
Reply-To: eager@eagercon.com
Organization: Eager Consulting

Where can I obtain more information about PPP?  As I understand
it, it allows a site to have TCP/IP access to the InterNet via 
phone lines.  


---
Michael J. Eager		Michael.Eager@eagercon.com
Eager Consulting		(415) 325-8077 
1960 Park Boulevard, Palo Alto, CA 94306-1141
Newsgroups: news.admin
From: kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: "Computers graphic when it comes to porn"
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 13:54:46 GMT

In article <1992Aug29.153838.31459@m.cs.uiuc.edu>
kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie) writes:

>Although, Hitler and his Brown Shirts were free to speak, his
>opposition wasn't. Why? Because his Brown Shirts would beat up or kill
>the opposition and the government would not stop the violence.

clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca (Chris Lewis) writes:

>If Hitler had been born mute and dyslexic, how would the Brown
>Shirts have known what to do?

Likewise, if Hitler had starved to death he couldn't have hurt anyone.
Should we thus pass laws against members of hate groups eating?

>Part of the problem with your argument is that by the time that
>violence is being used, it may be too late to do anything about
>it.  Ie: if the army has been converted.

Are you claiming that this happened or only that it is possible?
Do you think it is likely to happen in your nation or mine?

- Carl
--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Newsgroups: news.admin,misc.legal.computing
From: whs70@dancer.uucp (22501-sohl)
Subject: Re: NetNews Contract? NOT!
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 92 19:14:27 GMT

In article <1992Aug27.153714.18985@m.cs.uiuc.edu> kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie) writes:
>Another condition for a legally-enforceable contract is that there be
>a meeting of minds as to the terms. This debate shows that there is
>no such understanding.

From my point of view, there is a meeting of the minds as soon as a
poster posts.  If I buy a theatre ticket, I may think the cost is
outrageous and too expensive, but the act of purchasing the ticket
is certainly a "meeting of the mond" as I knew fully what I was doing.
There are many contracts that are created in which one or more
parties are not pleased with the terms, but that doesn't eliminate the
fact that a contract exists.

As has been the case before, I personally don't see any likelyhood of 
"jj" or anyone else winning a copyright infringement suit against the
network or more specifically, against any of the network providers.
We all have our opinions and until someone actually tries to sue some
network provider(s) because they "copied" a post when the poster had
some form of "limited distribution" note attached, we will not have
any difinitive answer.  For now, it seems, the network goes on as
before, and that is as it should be.

As a final note, I do believe that someone that posts copyrighted
material (eg. someone else's story, etc.) would be able to
be sued, although I don't think any liability would/could be extended
to the network and or network providers themselves.

My thoughts on the network are limited to an individual posting
his/her own words to the net.  Likewise, I don't believe an original
post to the net puts those words in public domain, I DO belive that
once posted, there is almost no limit to the copying of that post
that may occur through what we call the network/USENet/etc.

Standard Disclaimer- Any opinions, etc. are mine and NOT my employer's.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Sohl (K2UNK) BELLCORE (Bell Communications Research, Inc.)
Morristown, NJ             email via UUCP      bcr!dancer!whs70
201-829-2879 Weekdays      email via Internet  whs70@dancer.cc.bellcore.com
From: len@pagesat.netsys.com (Len Rose)
Newsgroups: news.admin
Subject: nntp news feed needed
Summary: Looking for nntp newsfeed.
Keywords: nntp newsfeed
Date: 4 Sep 92 03:53:12 GMT
Followup-To: len@netsys.com
Distribution: usa
Organization: ISS Engineering


 Hi.. I am looking for a full newsfeed via nntp. Please leave mail or
 call 800-227-6288

 Len

len@netsys.com (rutgers!netsys!len) "What a long,strange trip it's been.."

For more information regarding the Pagesat Usenet to Satellite Uplink system,
mail to "pagesat@pagesat.netsys.com" or call: 415-424-0380 (ask for marketing)
.. Delivering 40+ megabytes of Usenet news each day, at 9600 bps .. 
.. We aim at the stars, and you get news ..
From: cs000hf@selway.umt.edu (Hong Fan)
Newsgroups: news.admin
Subject: news group for business/stock
Date: 26 Aug 92 02:44:09 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Montana

Dear news administration:

I just to want to if there is any group for business/stock. If so, Please
mail me at cs000hf@selway.umt.edu.

I appreciate your time and help.

Hong Fan
CS Dept.
U of Montana
Xref: sparky news.admin:7256 misc.legal.computing:2015
Newsgroups: news.admin,misc.legal.computing
Subject: Re: NetNews Contract? NOT!
From: a_rubin@dsg4.dse.beckman.com (Arthur Rubin)
Date: 26 Aug 92 18:19:11 GMT
Distribution: na

In <1992Aug24.225908.5989@gtephx.UUCP> forda@gtephx.UUCP (Andrew Ford @ AGCS, Phoenix, Arizona) writes:

>A contract is an agreement between two parties to exchanges goods, services
>and/or money.  The only requirements for forming a binding contract are 
>that the parties entered into the agreement voluntarily and that the 
>original intent of the parties has not be obstructed by outside forces.

That is what I see as weak point of the contract argument; there is no
identifiable party representing the net.  It's usually clear who the poster
is.

>You may not be aware of this, but you have a contract with your state
>governemnt (if you have a valid driver's license): part of that contract
>states that you waive your right to a trial by jury for certain 
>traffic violations -- don't believe me? try getting a ticket and 
>then asking the judge for a jury trial -- You *do* have a constitutional
>right to trial by jury -- even for civil cases.  But you *can* contract
>away those rights, provided no-one forces you.  And since it is very 
>unlikely that anyone has ever forced you to get a Driver's license, you
>entered that contract willingly, if unknowingly.

Bad argument.  Two reasons: (1) you do have a right to a trial by jury for
a crime; (at least, in California) the government has defined traffic
tickets as not being a crime, but an "infraction".  (2)  Here in the US,
you usually can't demand a jury trial when you are sueing the IRS or the
IRS is sueing you, with only taxes (and not criminal fraud, etc.) is in
question.  IMHO, that is clearly unconstitutional, but that's the way it
is.

--
Arthur L. Rubin: a_rubin@dsg4.dse.beckman.com (work) Beckman Instruments/Brea
216-5888@mcimail.com 70707.453@compuserve.com arthur@pnet01.cts.com (personal)
My opinions are my own, and do not represent those of my employer.
My interaction with our news system is unstable; if you want to be sure I see a post, mail it.
Newsgroups: news.admin
From: kadie@herodotus.cs.uiuc.edu (Carl M. Kadie)
Subject: Re: "Computers graphic when it comes to porn"
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 13:59:35 GMT

In article <1992Aug31.193351.27896@ncar.ucar.edu> woods@ncar.ucar.edu
(Greg Woods) writes:

>One thing that *is* sure is that
>giving the government the freedom to censor certain kinds of
>speech is a fatal mistake.

clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca (Chris Lewis) writes:

>*Again*, the government does NOT have that power.  The courts and
>juries do.

In the U.S. we use the phrase "the government" to mean "the state".
The courts are part of the "government". Juries act under the
authority of the "government" and usually (but not always) merely
decide the facts of a case, not the justness of a law.

- Carl
--
Carl Kadie -- kadie@cs.uiuc.edu -- University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Xref: sparky news.admin:7362 news.config:372 ne.wanted:1188 ne.news:35
From: roskuski@lpoint.UUCP (Barry Roskuski)
Newsgroups: news.admin,news.config,ne.wanted,ne.news
Subject: Looking for a News Feed, Western Massachusetts
Date: 28 Aug 92 13:58:07 GMT
Followup-To: news.admin
Distribution: ne
Organization: Laserpoint Software Systems, Ludlow, Ma.


    We are currently looking for a news feed in Western Mass. Our
    current news feed is going away sometime in September, so we will
    need to get another reasonably soon. We currently recieve about 30
    newgroups, and we have a Trailblazer for dialing out. I realize there
    are not many sites out here in Western Mass. Central Mass. or Northern
    Connecticut would be okay also. (Eastern Mass as a last resort.)

    Please reply via one of the addresses in the signature. Other addresses
    may not get through.


--
Barry J. Roskuski                think!urartu!lpoint!roskuski or
Laserpoint Software Systems      lpoint!roskuski@urartu.sdpa.org
Ludlow Ma.
From: c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
Newsgroups: news.admin
Subject: Re: Hasan B Mutlu
Date: 1 Sep 92 14:10:39 GMT
Organization: Delco Electronics Corp.

In article <1992Aug31.191437.29821@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
[Various pro-and-against-Mutlu arguments from both sides deleted]
>
>Go get him. Just don't expect ME to feel the same way.

Well, Dave, looking at today's catch in soc.culture.whatever, here's a
sampler you may find interesting.

# From rphroy!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!att!ucbvax!zuma.UUCP!sera
# From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
# Newsgroups: soc.culture.turkish,talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek
# Subject: Re: Lets stop illegal posts of Hallamian The Crook.
# Message-ID: <9208311726.A4297Wn@zuma.UUCP>
# Date: 30 Aug 92 20:54:13 GMT
# Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU
# Lines: 36
# Xref: rphroy soc.culture.turkish:21244 talk.politics.mideast:44638 talk.politics.soviet:15243 soc.culture.greek:12994
# 
# <1992Aug30.020900.8987@dscomsf.desy.de>
# hallam@zeus02.desy.de (Phillip M. Hallam-Baker)
# 
# >UCBVAX provides a facility which people without NNTP posting privs can
# >use to post. It is also possible to use it to forge posts through it,
# >almost all mutlus appear from either this gateway or the Ohio state one,
# >without exception they are forged and have been so for a very long
# >while.
# 
# When you have finished forging I'd suggest you answer the points Prof 
# Shaw raised below.
# 
# Source: Stanford J. Shaw, on Armenian collaboration with invading Russian
# armies in 1914, "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey (Volume
# II: Reform, Revolution & Republic: The Rise of Modern Turkey, 1808-1975)."
# (London, Cambridge University Press 1977). pp. 315-316.
# 
# [....]
# 
# Serdar Argic
# 
#                      'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
#                       We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
#                       serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
#                       then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
#                                                        (Ohanus Appressian)

There were about 10-15 of these today. And of course, zuma.UUCP does not
exist according to uunet. I tried. 

Tell you what, Dave. A few days back you had offered to provide Mutlu
with an account if he were denied one elsewhere. Why don't you do that
so at least we have a REAL address to email to instead of a ficticious one?

Anyway...

Spiros

-- 
Spiros Triantafyllopoulos                    c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com
Software Technology, Delco Electronics       striantafyll@kosds1.gm.hac.com
GM Hughes Electronics, Kokomo, IN 46904      [A Different Kind of Disclaimer]
Newsgroups: news.admin
From: barr@pop.psu.edu (David Barr)
Subject: Re: Why we need a "Copyright: " field (was: Re: NetNews/CD  .  .  .)
Organization: Penn State Population Research Institute
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 92 13:22:25 GMT

In article <1992Aug28.033102.6114@eagercon.com> eager@eagercon.com writes:
>Let's get the electronics, phone and fax out of the picture.  What if 
>you take an envelope with your article and place it in my mail box?  Even
>if you thought that it was my neighbors mailbox?  Can you then sue me for 
>having your article without your permission?  I hope that you will not be 
>so foolish to say that you can.  

In this case the law is pretty clear.  The paper containing the article
is your property.  You can sell it, give it to a museum, or whatever.
The words _on_ the page, however, are still owned by the originator
of the article.  In the case of electronic transmission, this clear-cut
issue gets quite a bit more fuzzy.

--Dave
Newsgroups: news.admin