HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: callison@essex.ecn.uoknor.edu (James P. Callison)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Saved by the gun
Date: 2 Jan 93 14:17:53 GMT
Organization: Engineering Computer Network, University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK, USA

In article <1i2inoINN1bm@clem.handheld.com> jmd@cube.handheld.com (Jim De Arras) writes:
#In article <64nrfn-@dixie.com> jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond) writes:
## Even more amazing was the next segment taken from a convenience store
## camera.  Four mexican armed robbers stormed in and hopped the counter.
## They robbed the cash register.  In the instant the punks turned their
#                                                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^
## backs on the owner, he pulled what looked like a 9 mm automatic and 
#  ^^^^^
## killed all 4.  He appeared to know what he was doing, discharging 6
## shots in a little over 3 seconds.  
#
#I have a problem with this, at least as presented here.  If they were 
#leaving,  
#I do not personally feel deadly force was needed at the point they 
#turned thier  
#backs.  Unless the fact that they were mexican made them fair game.

I happened to see that show; they didn't exactly have their backs turned.
They had just started to leave the store, but they were still armed, and
at least one, maybe more, was still behind the counter when the owner
produced the auto. They were all shot within five or so feet of the counter,
and they all constituted a clear and present danger when he shot them.
 
## In other news tonite, the local news reported a woman kidnapped and raped
## after the rapist took her to his house and chained her to the bed.  
## He fell asleep after raping the woman.  She got loose from her chains,
## got his gun and killed him.  Police say there will be no charges filed.
## 
#
#I guess stress and shock were in play, here, but again, on the surface, she  
#should not have shot and killed him if she apparently had the chance to 
#leave.   
#Taking the gun, of course.

The bastard got off too easily, IMHO. I have absolutely no sympathy
for rapists, and, IMNSHO, they forfeit their rights the moment they
commit the crime. But I stray from the charter...

#My opinions only, and I DO have sympathy for the victims, but unless their  
#lives were in immediate danger, they have no right to short-circuit  
#due-process.  No matter how bad a scum the attacker it.  But I do give 
#benefit  
#of the doubt to the victim, stress and force are awful things.

Did they really short-circuit the justice system/due process? Maybe,
maybe not. Both the robbers and the rapist were killed during the
commission of felonies (kidnapping is, I believe, a felony), so the
shootings _were_ legally justified--whether they were morally justified,
however, is a topic for another group...

				James

James P. Callison       Microcomputer Coordinator        OU Law Library 
Callison@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu   /\    Callison@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu
	constellation!biglaw!callison@mailhost.ecn.uoknor.edu
DISCLAIMER: I'm not an engineer, but I play one at work...
	"God didn't make men and women equal. Colonel Colt did."
			--Maggie Zombro, "Reasonable Doubts"
From: mball@ac.dal.ca
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: T.C. carbine
Date: 22 Dec 92 00:00:47 GMT
Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada

I would like to gather the net wisdom on the subject of 
Thompson-Contender carbines.  I understand that the pistols
are nicely accurate and that the carbine is basically the 
pistol with a stock.  Despite the fact that I have 
heard/read many good things about the pistol the lack
of carbine (and TCR87 rifle for that matter) info makes
me wonder.  I am thinking hard about getting one as a 
learning gun for my daughters (.22 youth stock) and as a single shot 
(30-30 rynite adult stock) deer rifle for myself.  Any info
would be appreciated.

Marty Ball
MBALL@AC.DAL.CA
From: cwr30@duts.ccc.amdahl.com (Clarence W Rothrock)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Case Trimming, RCBS Rotary Case Trimmer II
Date: 31 Dec 92 21:57:28 GMT
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA


I have a RCBS Rotary Case Trimmer II, and I am having problems with the case
lengths not being equal after trimming.  When I say equal I mean they are as
much as .020" different.  Does anyone out there have any suggestions?  By the
way I am trimming .44 mag cases if that would make any difference.  I have
checked the obvious like the cutter stop slipping or making sure that the case
is fully seated in the collet.  Is this a problem with all case trimmers?  Is
this isolated to only the RCBS trimmer?  Is this isolated to my lack of
experience and knowledge?  Help would be greatly appreciated.
From: bz269@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (James D. Del Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Colt Detective Special
Date: 22 Dec 92 18:45:56 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)


In a previous article, erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID) says:

#In the 20 Dec issue of SGN several distributors are offering NEW
#production Colt Detective Specials - 6-shot, .38, 2", blue. This
#has been rumored for several months in GUN WEEK.

#So it seems that the quintessential "snubby" lives again, and just
#in time for Christmas! Happy happy happy! Bang bang bang!

1)  The old bare-pin version looks better than the ugly (imo) 
post 72 shrouded barrel version.  It's the style of the shroud,
not the fact of it that bothers me, because I don't mind the looks 
of the Taurus 85 shroud as much.

The pin and the round front sight looks better, but I don't know if
it is any more or less practical.

2)  How could they make them 20 oz and six shots if they're all steel?
The frame must be thin.   Are they ok for lots of +P?
From: hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Gun blast noise in a car?
Date: 29 Dec 92 01:49:28 GMT
Organization: The Cat Factory

In article <199212200619.AA13742@cherokee.advtech.uswest.com> kdlin@advtech.uswest.com (David Lin) writes:

}... The car jackers, that I've heard of, often use a brick
}to smash your windshield ...

I think you mean the driver's side window.  Windshields are difficult to
break in the first place and a broken one would make the car relatively
useless to the car jacker.

If I saw someone coming at my car for no obvious reason (say, while
stopped at a signal) I'd get my gun discretely in hand before they got to
me (if I had a gun. @#$%! California carry laws don't permit me one in my
car).

The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com)
Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp                "If you can't stand solitude,
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.   (310) 450-9111, x2483  perhaps others find you boring
Santa Monica, CA  90405                        as well."  -- Mark Twain
From: rdd@rascal.ics.utexas.edu (Robert Dorsett)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: rec.radio.info
Date: 29 Dec 92 19:01:56 GMT

#Vision-List-Request moderator writes:
#}
#}It is time to plug the horrendous hole which allows someone other than
#}a moderator to send out a message on a moderated group. It is a nasty
#}hack that has other solutions. Any chance it can get phased out?
#}(And the cross-post simply is mailed to the moderator of other cross-posted
#}groups or to the submission email address.)
#
#I'm with you, Phil, 

Since the current system seems to work, I'd suggest not changing it.  There
are significant benefits in not having "hard" association with any single
moderator.  

The use of somewhat elitest "friend-lists," of trusted posters, is one 
example.  I believe Werner Uhrig, for instance, allows virus-killer
authors to post directly to comp.sys.mac.announce, since their announcements
could be extremely time-critical.

Another, more mundane aspect is distributed responsibility.  Up until 
recently, moderators have been lords of their domain: this belies the 
fact that they are performing a public service.  I support the concept of
an "administrative" moderator, who may also serve as a thematic moderator,
but who'd have the authority to appoint other people to "run the list,"
as necessary.  This would provide a socially acceptable "out" for moderators
who start a list, but just don't have time or resources to make it work.

Real life often interferes with our best intentions, killing the time we 
thought we had to spend on a project.  Allowing a moderator to *easily*
appoint "back-up" moderators, to keep things running in case of other
time-demands, vacations, burn-out, etc., would certainly alleviate a lot
of headaches--and if we all did it, a lot of the net.bitching about "unco-
operative" moderators, who never post, would probably disappear, too.

Let's not let our desire to exert "control" interfere with the system, if
it's working.  I can't think of more than a handful of "nuisance" posts
on the newsgroups I read, over the past few years: most of those have been
"Gee, can I do it?" in nature.

Just my $0.02 worth.


--
Robert Dorsett
Internet: rdd@rascal.ics.utexas.edu
UUCP: ...cs.utexas.edu!rascal.ics.utexas.edu!rdd
From: bobd@marune.acs.ohio-state.edu (Bob DeBula)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: light .44 Magnum loads?
Date: 30 Dec 92 16:07:47 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University

In article <1haactINN4oa@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> gmk@falstaff.MAE.CWRU.EDU (Geoff Kotzar) writes:

#
[Comments about Win 296 deleted for brevity]
#

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in my leafing through a recent
Winchester Powder catalog, I seem to remember noticing that Win 296,
Win 785, and Win 680 are no longer listed as current Winchester Powders.
I am less certain about Win 296 than the other two.
Hence, I would assume that normal production of these powders has
ceased. Personally, I use Hercules Blue Dot these days for my magnum
loads anyway. I think that the deletion of 680 is a tragedy (although
Accurate Arms has a powder (1680) which may well be close (or the
same)). 
-- 
==========================================================================
              Disclaimer: These are my views, not the U's

        "If it's in the paper it must be true!" --- D. Doright
From: keith@scorpio.ic.cmc.ca (Keith de Solla)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Hi-Power mag safety
Date: 24 Dec 92 18:40:10 GMT
Organization: Canadian Microelectronics Corporation

I have a new Hi-Power that I intend to use for IPSC and I was 
thinking about disconnecting the annoying magazine safety. 
- how difficult is this to do? 
- does it require a gunsmith? 
- will it make the mags drop out easier?
- is there any reason I should not do this?  (This is not a carry or
  self-defence gun;  can't do that in the Great White North)

-------------------------------------------------------------------
| Keith P. de Solla, P.Eng |  "Be sure brain is engaged before    |
| CMC                      |   putting mouth in gear"             |
| keith@orion.ic.cmc.ca    |                                      |
From: bobd@marune.acs.ohio-state.edu (Bob DeBula)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: M1911 operation
Date: 30 Dec 92 16:07:46 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University

In article <9212211415.aa16761@claudius.pica.army.mil> erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID) writes:
#
#As to the "made in Poland" comment, the Germans acquired the tooling for
#the VIS following the invasion, and liked the design so much that they
#produced over 300,000 of them, including some at Steyr, with the only
#changes being made for ease of production. Let me guess - they were stupid
#too, right?
#

I seem to recall that as the war wended on, the Radoms produced for German
troops tended to get more crude and left original safety features
out of the pistol. I know that original pre-war Polish Radoms command
*lots* more money at shows.
-- 
==========================================================================
              Disclaimer: These are my views, not the U's

        "If it's in the paper it must be true!" --- D. Doright
From: ghm@sserve.cc.adfa.oz.au (Geoff Miller)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .22 Target Rifle Info Request
Date: 21 Dec 92 14:55:10 GMT
Organization: Australian Defence Force Academy, Canberra, Australia

HODGSONT@QUCDN.QueensU.CA (Jake Hodgson) writes:

# I'd like to hear some recomendation on various 3 position rifles in the
#'target rifle'  I'm not that familiar with DCRA rules, so for
#the sake of argument let's stick with UIT rules as far as target/free
#rifle distinctions.  I do recall that DCRA limits weight to 12lbs or so.
# 
# The other key point is that I'm doing this on a budget.  ie. don't
#tell me about AnshutzShutzenriflenthingens that I can get for a mere
#2000$.  I'd like to stay under 500$CDN.  Preferably a lot under, but that's
#abit unrealistic.
# 
#  As always, email me directly or, if there is interest, post it to the
#world.

Since these queries have come up a few times recently, I thought it
better to post my advice.  If you're starting out, DO NOT BUY A NEW
GUN.  Every target shooting club I have ever been involved with has
club guns that you can use and get a feel for how different makes 
and models suit you, and you can often try out members' own guns
once they get to know you.  Clubs can often put you in touch with 
people wishing to sell guns, and often the state or national associations
can do the same, or they may run their own shops.

So, step 1 is  -  make contact with the club.  Don't spend even a
small fortune buying a gun until you're sure from personal experience
that it suits the type of competition you're shooting _and_ that you
feel comfortable using it.  You have to be shooting pretty well (or
have very specialised requirements) before a new gun will make any
difference over a pre-loved one.

Geoff Miller  (g-miller@adfa.oz.au)
Computer Centre, Australian Defence Force Academy
From: dcwst8+@pitt.edu (David C Winters)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: DA derringers?
Date: 31 Dec 92 16:36:36 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh



     While we've got a derringger thread or two going on, has anyone had
any experience with DA derringers?  A few moons ago, _Guns&Ammo_ had one
of their recurring "catalog of all <insert caliber here>"  In this case,
it was a listing of 9mmPara, and among all of the vundernines and things
were a couple of derringers, one listed as DA?    

--
David Winters
winters@vms.cis.pitt.edu
From: erico@squirrel.pen.tek.com (Eric Oosterhof;627-4329;47-786;tekig1.pen;)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Gun blast noise in a car?
Date: 21 Dec 92 23:59:58 GMT
Organization: tektronix


In article <1gsthrINNarh@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, gmk@falstaff.MAE.CWRU.EDU (Geoff Kotzar) writes:
|> In article <1992Dec14.183537.4636@athena.cs.uga.edu> boone@athena.cs.uga.edu (Roggie Boone) writes:

(  snip  )
|>                                        At one of the ranges I used to
|> shoot at I was able to use my Impala as a self-propelled brass catcher
|> for a .45. I would sit in the driver's seat and fire through the passenger
                                                        ^^^^^^^
|> window. As others have reported, the concussion was absolutely STUNNING.

(  snip  )

|> geoff kotzar

Folks, don't try this at home.  Or, if you do, OPEN the passenger window. ;)
Sheesh.

On a more serious note; if you ever NEED to fire your weapon, meaning life or
death kinda thang, you won't hear it.  Adrenalin does strange things.  Last
New Years, at 12:00 AM, me and a buddy lit off 7 magazines worth of .45ACP,
neither of us with ear protection.  (Boy, talk about asking for some Yer An
Idjit flames!!)  Yes, our ears rang a while.  No, neither eardrum ruptured.
Yes, all hearing returned.  We also have fired in said buddies basement.
All concrete and much more concussion proof than a car (meaning less stuffing
to absorb the shock) and had no ill effects from that.  


-- 
Eric Oosterhof                "Gentlemen, I have the utmost confidence 
erico@tekig1.PEN.TEK.COM       in your ability to perform...
(503) 627-4329                 the impossible!"  Capt. Jean-Luc Picard
"Choosy mothers choose .gif"  Anthony C. Zable
From: hhelanto@vipunen.hut.fi (Henri R Helanto)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Accurate semi-auto rifles (AR15?)
Date: 4 Jan 93 03:13:16 GMT
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland

In <1hqh4cINNdd7@agate.berkeley.edu> kohn@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (Philip Kohn) writes:

#It seems like people are hinting that the AR15 is not the best
#choice for a very accurate semi-auto rifle in the $400-$900 price range.
#What other rifles are worth considering?

#If the AR15 is the right choice, then which one?
#I know of Quality Parts (liked their propaganda - I mean catalog),
#Olympic Arms, and Colt. I have heard there are many others.
<snip>

	Hmm. I can't see why AR15 couldn't qualify as an accurate
	semi-auto rifle. The gun itself is capable of a lot better
	but I've shot 2.5" groups from 160 yards with iron sights.

	If you don't _want_ an AR, I would recommend Galil (I don't
	know how expensive it is in the US) or Valmet m/76.
	The Galil is maybe the best military rifle I've ever shot
	with and Valmet is the one I used when I served in the 
	Finnish army. Both of them are very reliable, even better
	than the AR and more accurate than a normal shooter unless
	you use a 40x scope.

	If I could buy a Galil (the company that imported them went
	bankrupt and I don't want to face all the hassle of importing
	one) I definitely would. There isn't really that big difference
	between rifles after all.

-Henri

	




-- 
 Henri Helanto - SysOp    |	'MY LAST SONY! THE TOY THAT BROKE UP!'   
 hhelanto@vipunen.hut.fi  <->    m40176m@puukko.hut.fi   
-+*> Call MyBBS (+358-0-485067/485068/485968/485918/488139, 24h) ! <*+-
From: hays@SSD.intel.com (Kirk Hays)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Colt or Springfield 1911A1
Date: 31 Dec 92 01:25:44 GMT
Organization: Intel Supercomputer Systems Division

In article <1992Dec27.155514.483@slammer.UUCP>, brad%slammer.UUCP@mathcs.emory.edu (Brad Isley) writes:

|> They all went 8"
|> high (the slide is now being milled to lower the rear sight to match the
|> front sight height).

Beg pardon?

If you've got a 'smith who's doing what you say he's doing, it's not your slide,
but your wallet that's being worked on.

(Since the rear sight is not part of the slide on a M1911, it is not necessary to
modify the slide to lower point-of-impact, just the rear sight.  Better yet, get
a higher front sight.)

-- 
Kirk Hays - NRA Life.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing."  -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
From: hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: More newbie questions
Date: 22 Dec 92 15:05:06 GMT
Organization: The Cat Factory

In article <1992Dec16.183456.22915@news.eng.convex.com> cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) writes:
}In article <viking.724472619@vincent2.iastate.edu> viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:
}
}...about kids & toy guns
}
}#	It's a non-issue.  Kids are remarkably adept at determining what is
}#a play toy and what is real, despite using your best Snap-On wrenches as
}#drumsticks.  It seems to me that they can be taught at a very early age
}#what is a real gun (do not touch) and what is a play gun (have fun).  This
}#is often reinforced by the play gun being given to them and kept in their
}#toybox, while the real gun stays in Daddy's closet safe.

Very young children may not understand.  One of my XSO's horror stories is
of the time a neighbor's child visited her son.  There was an unloaded,
but otherwise very realistic, blank pistol on their coffee table.  The
kid's first reaction was to pick it up, point it at her kid and pull the
trigger.

Children are impulsive.  They don't always think before acting.

}There have been cases of kids getting shot because they pointed a gun at
}the wrong person. Also, it gives me the creeps to have some strange kid
}point what I can only hope--but don't know for sure--is a toy at me. It's
}sad, but these days it's just possible that the gun is for real.

If a kid wants a toy gun, get them the fanciest, prettiest, weirdest
looking kill-o-zap space gun in the toy store.  They look nothing like
real guns, don't sound like real guns and should be brightly colored
enough to make it obvious they aren't real guns.

Your kid will love it and the cops won't mistake it for something that
could hurt them.  (Just be glad Star Trek is in fashion and westerns
aren't (-: ).

The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com)
Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp                Do not meddle in the affairs of
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.   (310) 450-9111, x2483  dragons, for you are crunchy
Santa Monica, CA  90405                        and go well with ketchup.
From: execu!phil@uunet.UU.NET (Phil Saladyk)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Beretta 92F Series
Date: 22 Dec 92 00:01:06 GMT
Organization: Austin Dev. Center, Comshare Inc.


Hi !!

I am thinking about purchasing a Beretta 92FS, could someone
out there please give me their opinion on this gun such as likes,]
dislikes, reliability, etc..

Please post your responses or e-mail me.



Thanks in advance
Phil Saladyk
Comshare
From: cash@convex.com (Peter Cash)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: M1911 operation
Date: 22 Dec 92 15:05:47 GMT
Organization: The Instrumentality

In article <9212211415.aa16761@claudius.pica.army.mil> erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID) writes:

#As to the "made in Poland" comment, the Germans acquired the tooling for
#the VIS following the invasion, and liked the design so much that they
#produced over 300,000 of them, including some at Steyr, with the only
#changes being made for ease of production. Let me guess - they were stupid
#too, right?

C'mon, Ed--everyone knows that the Germans lost WWII because they used the
inferior 9mm Parabellum caliber in their pistols, instead of the awesome
.45 ACP! Just ask Col. Cooper!

Well, it really shouldn't be necessary, but... 8^)














-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
             |      Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist.     |
Peter Cash   |       (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein)      |cash@convex.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: emory!ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: light .44 Magnum loads
Date: 26 Dec 92 00:17:36 GMT
Organization: Destructive Testing Systems

In article <9212222140.AA25077@hp-vcd.vcd.hp.com> dmunroe@hpvclmun.vcd.hp.com (Dave Munroe) writes:
#
##So if I can load it with 6 gr in a .44 Special case, why can't I load the 
##same bullet with 6 gr in a .44 magnum case?
#
#Several of my reloading manuals refer to a phenonmenon called "detonation"
#which supposedly occurs when a load is too light for the given case volume.
#What supposedly happens is that rather than the powder burning in a controlled
#fashion, it detonates and results in a pressure spike higher than the case
#is designed for.  I don't know if this has ever been proven, but I keep
#seeing references to it and I do remember articles in the gun mags where
#cotton was used inside the case with light loads.

Cotton wadding is used to keep the powder back by the primer to insure
reliable ignition. The problem with tiny powder charges in large cases
is that the powder can shift away from the primer flash hole and not be
reliably ignited. This can result in weak ignition and a bullet stuck in
the bore. When you fire the next round, the gun blows up.

#To answer your specific question, the .44 mag case is larger than the .44
#Special case, so the ratio of powder to case volume is lower.

The difference is 0.1 inch. Seating depths for various bullets vary by
more than that.

Gary
-- 
Gary Coffman KE4ZV          |    You make it,     | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary
Destructive Testing Systems |    we break it.     | uunet!rsiatl!ke4zv!gary
534 Shannon Way             |    Guaranteed!      | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary      
Lawrenceville, GA 30244     |                     | emory!ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu