From: robertg@algol.cs.umbc.edu (Robert Gottlieb)
Subject: Re: Anti-Orthodoxy (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Organization: University of Maryland Baltimore Campus, Computer Science Department
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 21:44:08 GMT

In article <1992Jul25.211027.7040@midway.uchicago.edu> rivk@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>In article <1992Jul24.191706.556@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld) writes:
>>In article <1992Jul24.071839.29730@midway.uchicago.edu>, rivk@quads.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis) writes:

>>Could you please specify *which* tenets of Orthodox religious belief are
>>so violently offensive to you?  Please stick to Orthodox *theory* (your own
>>word) as opposed to imperfect reality.  I.e, I don't want to hear "They only
>>care about Kosher but they don't care about being nice to people", since that
>>is the practice of those who misuse, and do not fully follow, Orthodoxy.
>
>All right, but please, people, I'd rather this didn't get out of hand.
>I'm sorry I started it, and the fact that it was my own bad judgement
>that brought it up is the only thing that's making me answer your question
>now -- the last time I got into this discussion on soc.culture.jewish I
>got an e-mail death threat and such a load of hate mail that I was forced
>to drop, not only off the newsgroup, but off the net altogether for a few
>months. So I'll discuss it if people insist, but please -- I'm sorry I
>started off with such an inflammatory statement and can we please keep
>this cooled down to the extent that nobody is threatening anyone else's
>life?

	I, being a reform jew, would also like to see this.
	But not just here in this newsgroup, but how about in Israel
	or wherever?  I find it completely disgusting that a member
	of an Ultra-Orthodox temple would beat up a reform rabbi.
	I mean, aren't we all in the same religion.  Doesn't our
	relgion teach peace and love?  And for that matter it
	can be extended to all human beings, not just us Jews.
	I could go off on this subject all day, but I'll spare that
	for any flames that I get as a result of this (which I
	hope, in an idealistic world, would be none).

	OH, and before anyone says I"m attacking the Orthodox, I'm
	not.  I'm just against anyone attacking another because of
	skin color, sexual orientation or religion, or whatever.
	I have nothing against any group of people.  And I also don't
	believe that all Orthodox are alike.

>
>Basic argument I have with Orthodoxy is one I've already stated: who 
>decides what the Law means. I don't accept Talmud as being handed down
>directly from G-d, nor do I accept the decisions of rabbis, ancient or
>modern, as definitive. I accept the results of my own logic as definitive,
>with all the rest being advice -- maybe very good advice, but only advice,
>which I can weigh as my judgement dictates and take or leave according to
>my own reasoning. In a lot of cases, the conclusion I come to is the same
>as the halachic conclusion; but that's not because I'm "following" hala-
>cha. I don't *follow* anything.
>
>>Elie Rosenfeld   
>
>	-Nora




	As far as I'm concerned, the Torah was written by many different
	people giving many different accounts of history.  If they
	actually saw us taking it leterally I think they'd be laughing
	at us.  But this is my opinion, I will not say that it is the
	only reasoning.  I just can't see how anyone can say the Torah
	is an accurate document.  There are parts where clearly Moses
	could not have gone up Mount Sinai and come back down and 
	gone back up, and gone back up (wait, how'd he get back up if
	he hadn't come back down yet?).  To me, I think the Torah has
	alot to offer in the way of guidance, i.e. morals like being
	kind to others, and helping the poor, and not to be greedy
	or snobby, etc.  I think there are alot of great things in the
	Bible.  But I just don't see how it could ever be taken literally.
	I also have a problem with the idea of keeping Kosher, but that's	       not a major problem for me.  I always thought that the reason
	Jews kept kosher was because of being nomads in the desert and
	not having such appliances as Refrigerators.  I could be wrong
	on this, as I really won't clame to know everything about the
	religion, but it just doesn't make much sense to not eat something
	just because someone says it's not good.  But like I said, it's
	not that big of a deal to me.  It doesn't bother me that other
	people keep kosher, I just choose not to.  Anyway that's my
	.02, and those of you Unix guru's:

	flames >> /dev/null

	Translated for non-guru's.  All flames, i.e. non-constructive
	criticisms, will be sent to a huge void in computer memory
	never to be seen again.

	
	Robert Gottlieb
	gottlieb@umbc4.umbc.edu or robertg@cs.umbc.edu
	"Not gonna do it.. wouldn't be prudent..."
	Not umbc's opinion.  
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish