From: nyikos@math.scarolina.edu (Peter Nyikos)
Subject: Re: Peter Nyikos has been an "intellectual pro-lifer" to 20 years?
Keywords: You expect me to mark my deletions?  Dream on...
Organization: USC  Department of Computer Science
Date: 15 Oct 92 20:44:30 GMT

In <1992Oct11.165539.5883@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> kcochran@nyx.cs.du.edu (Keith "Justified And Ancient" Cochran) writes:

>In article <nyikos.718566335@milo.math.scarolina.edu> nyikos@math.scarolina.edu (Peter Nyikos) writes:
>>In <1992Oct1.180147.14031@netcom.com> bskendig@netcom.com (Brian Kendig) writes:
>>>c164-ad@po.berkeley.edu (Martin Guerrero) wrote (in article <1992Oct1.070033.29228@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>):
>>>>The right to life is the most basic and fundamental right we have.  Without
>>>>a right to life, we cannot claim any other rights (possibly because we'd
>>>>be dead?)
>>
>>>There are two weaknesses to your argument.
>>
>>>One is that your 'right' to life can be waived by other people.
>>
>>No weakness there.  I think even Martin would make a threat-to-the-life-
>>of-the-mother exception, and I would make a lot more exceptions.

>Oh?  So far the only "exception" I've seen you make is your
>"GoldenGodGivenFiveWeekRule".

From an e-mail message I sent to Frank O'Dwyer:

1. Direct threat to her life, or a condition that would render her
a permanent invalid.  [This assumes the condition would be averted
by the abortion.  I do not know of any instances meeting the "or"
clause but not the foregoing one.]

2. Not wishing to go the whole nine months, wanting to give premature
birth.  [Some people would not class this with abortions.  The intent
is to have a live, if underdeveloped baby which would either be kept
or put up for adoption.]
 
3. Fetal handicap so severe that it would literally be better for the
child to never be born.  [I do not know of any proven cases, though
Tay-Sacks disease may qualify.]

Insofar as possible, abortions in case 1. should be treated like those
in case 2.  I think you can relate to this, you advanced a similar
argument in a post of yours.  The point is, the direct threat is unlikely
to materialize prior to viability, and one should postpone the abortion
as long as feasible to give the child the best chance to live.

[end of excerpt]
>>
>>>The other is that you're completely neglecting to consider the woman
>>>involved. 		  ^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>>Come off it, Brian!  are you blind, or are you such a toady of Adrienne
>>that you cannot bear to disagree with her?

>Martin is completely neglecting to consider the woman involved.

I didn't realize you were also a toady of Adrienne, but that would
go a long way towards explaining some of your behavior.

>>
>>> I've posted a list of some situations in which I feel a
>>>woman would have a very good reason not to have a child she doesn't
>>>want (she was raped, or she needs to take medication that could
>>>severely damage the fetus, or she would be required to quit her job
>>>and go onto welfare, and so on).
>>
>>I can't speak for Martin, but it is precisely for such reasons that
>>I would keep abortion legal for the first 5 weeks.  

>Petey Honey, do you have any kids?  Ask your wife if she knew she was pregnant
>within the first five weeks, ok?

She could have, if she'd wanted to.  The blood test is good after the
second week.

>>Can you give an instance where a woman NEEDS, in the sense of severe
>>physical impairment resulting from ANY other remedy, to take a medi-
>>cation that would SEVERELY damage the fetus, and I don't mean even
>>the kind of damage that "thalidomide babies" endured, since some of
>>them have grown up to be quite happy and productive citizens of their
>>respective countries, and I have never heard of one saying he/she
>>wished he/she had never been born.

>1) I'm not a doctor, but I believe that Lithium, Dilantin, and Tegretol all
>cause changes in both sperm production, and will damage the z/e/f beyond
>repair, causing an abortion sometime during the pregnancy.
         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Then why all this intense lobbying for RU-486?  Is Hoechst Celanese
that much more in tune with the political process than the producers of
the things you mention?

>>
>>>  If you solve the abortion problem by
>>>flatly outlawing it, then women will use sympathetic doctors or
>>>coat-hangars, worsening the problem.
>>
>>No.  Sympathetic doctors are a big improvement on unsympathetic legal
>>abortionists, like several right here in Columbia.  As for 

>You do have documentation for this accusation, don't you?

You know the answer to that, Sledovatel Cochran.
Stop playing dumb.

>>coathangers, see the chapter "Specious Arguments in Favor of Abortion,"
>>in _Aborting America_.

>Bernard Nathanson again, right?

Right.  And at the time he wrote it, he was still doing abortions.

>>The hindering will not be a major problem if the reason really is
>>legitimate.  As to loopholes, sure, some will slip through, but there
>>would still be a major reduction in the number of abortions if the
>>loopholes are at all intelligently designed.  Or don't you give a 
>>damn about reducing the number of abortions, Brian?

>How much time and effort will a woman have to spend to show that she
>has a "legimate need" for an abortion?

Very little, as a rule.  The doctors and the rape crisis support
people will do most of the work for her.

>Or don't you give a damm about the lives of women, Peter?

More than you do, Sledovatel Cochran.  Do you still disbelieve
the case of the Black woman with incomplete abortion who went into
shock and needed emergency hospital treatment?  YOU thought
the wise thing to do was for her to go back to the butcher who
got her into the predicament.  With friends like you, women need
no enemies.

>You just want to make
>sure that those sluts who _dared_ to have sex without the comfort zone
>of a SugarDaddy to take care of them are punished by nine months of hard
>labor.

You must be confusing me with someone else.  I never said anything
that would support the above statement.  BTW, I don't think the
young Black woman in question had a husband, or any other SugarDaddy
(whatever that means) to help her.  She was driven to the clinic by
another young Black woman.