HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: wreck@fmsrl7.srl.ford.com (R. Cage)
Subject: Re: response to Alan Yasutovich wonderful self insight
Followup-To: fuck.off.asshole
Summary: The a**holes crawl out of the woodwork sometimes..
Organization: Ford Motor Company Scientific Research Labs, Dearborn, MI
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 22:37:28 GMT

In <779@dogear.spk.wa.us> RARCINIEGA@thor.nafb.trw.com (R_ARCINIEGA) flames:
>	This message is directed to Alan Yasutovich for giving such a won-
>	derful heartfelt feels(or lack there of)about his "son" and "past
>	life". You my friend are a classic example of a selffish, concided,
>	think of only myself person.

Yeah, right.  Like he isn't thinking of his CURRENT wife, or
his REAL (aka "known to him") family.

>	                                  I feel sorry for that you let the 
>	divorce and your ex-wife get in the way of establishing a reltation-
>	ship with your "son" or stranger as you put it.

I feel sorry for you that you have no reading ability nor
empathy, as if you had read, understood and FELT what Alan
has posted you would not be so viciously condemning him.
His ex wanted him OUT, and he didn't want a child then.
Just what was he supposed to do, magically make himself
like you or something?

>	When you and your 
>	present wife divorce I hope your atitude would be the same as in 
>	your first break-up. Thanks to you and your unwillingness to become
>	involved in your "sons" life, he will probally be just like you.

Gee, that's nice of you, wishing a nasty divorce on someone.
I bet your friends don't need any enemies...

>	HAVE A GOOD LIFE IN YOUR NEW ONE........

I think he has one.  His tone makes me believe that he is
living a lot better than someone who posts unprovoked sour
condemnations of other people on the net, ie. yourself.
From: shedevil@vix.com (Anne P. Mitchell)
Subject: Advice Needed
Organization: Fathers' Rights & Equality Exchange
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 06:53:58 GMT

The following was sent to me for posting from gott@astro.ufl.edu 
[PLEASE reply to him, not me! Also if you can think of a more
appropriate newsgroup?]:

<include file>


Annie I tried to post the following to the alt.child-support
but have been unsuccessful. Can you help by posting it?
************************************************  Thanks *******




Perhaps this does not belong here but I am posting it
hoping someone might have had similar experience.



We need urgently some input with the following:

My daughter a graduate student overseas was just served
divorce papers.  The marriage had faultered
yet she did not expect to be servced .. divorce papers.
His mother has been a destructive
force behind this scenes.

He is siding as reasons for the divorce, irreconsilable
differences I reckon.  I have not got a copy of the papers
yet.

Although my daughter was aware of the difficulties in the
marriage and his immaturity, nevertheless she is in a state
shock.  With exams around the corner and a preparation of
her Thesis she is hardly in a state of mind to handle a
divorce from overseas .  They are having no assets.  She has
student loans to complete her degree.  He is a student but his
parents have money and apparently have employed this lawyer
who served my daughter the papers.
>From what my daughter says the papers claim the divorce was
filed in January something she had no idea about but the
papers are dated March 16.
The stuff came via ordinary mail.  What all this means?
Harassment? I do not know.  Can a divorce be granted while she
is overseas having no idea about anything?

I am attempting to find her an attorney in Texas to handle this.

The British law is different besides as I said she has
no money. 
They do not have much to split
to make it worthwhile to employ lawyers but they are trying
to force her to the divorce while she is in the middle of
her schooling.  They could have waited. 
Can we just postpone all this divorce until she returns
to this country in September?  Has anyone any ideas?

With many thanks and appreciation for any help anyone
can give us.

SG.


-- 
    LOOKING FOR: Michael Hobson, Alex Craven, David Runyon, & Lorna Taylor
I am: Anne Mitchell, mom, law student, shedevil@leland.stanford.edu or @vix.com
     	  founder of FREE, the Fathers Rights and Equality Exchange.
 The fathers' rights paper & FREE files available via ftp: gw.home.vix.com;/pub
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
From: root@dogear.spk.wa.us (Bob Kirkpatrick)
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
Subject: Re: When the father is out of a job.
Date: 11 Apr 92 07:37:52 GMT
Organization: Dog Ear'd Systems of Spokane, WA

In article <1992Apr9.000217.1780@memstvx1.memst.edu> thrushea@memstvx1.memst.edu writes:
>
>That doesn't mean that I don't think both parents should play an 
>important part in the child's life - just that the child needs a
>consistent home.

So, your belief is that if dad doesn't spend time (for an unstated reason)
that he should pay what you think is right.
-- 
Bob Kirkpatrick                      "Stone cold."
Dog Ear'd Systems of Spokane, WA      ...and I thought I knew you so well."
root@dogear.spk.wa.us                                           
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
From: yasu@ll.mit.edu (Alan Yasutovich)
Subject: re- the poem
Organization: MIT Lincoln Laboratory
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 92 15:09:44 GMT

>Article 2540 of alt.child-support:
>Newsgroups: alt.parents-teens,alt.child-support
>Subject: starting a family young.
>
>Sorry about the cross-posting.
>I have a confession.
>My girlfriend is pregnant.
>I am not ashamed.
>We are proud.
>We are keeping the baby, much to the dismay of my and her parents.
>Abortion never entered the picture.
>It is our decision. We will live with it.
>We are not asking for support from either side and have decided that -- if it
>comes to it -- we will give the child up for adoption if our financial
>resources run out.
>See, I am merely a sophomore in college.
>My girlfriend will enter college in the fall.
>The baby is due in November.
>We have agreed on boy-names, but disagree on girl-names.
>My girlfriend and I have been seeing each other since 1990.
>I used to love my girlfriend.
>I _really_ love her now.
>I was going to give her an engagement ring for her graduation and ask her to
>marry me.
>We've spoken of marriage before.
>I believe that a child is a stronger bond of two people than marriage would
>ever be.
>Marriage is paperwork.
>Religious marriage ceremonies are preposterous and pompous.
>Organized religion is a loss of individuality.
>We have been buying things for our house.
>We are now saving for our future.
>She is Baptist, I was raised Catholic.
>We both have grown beyond our original religions.
>We see no need to get married now.
>Her mother's insurance would not cover her delivery anyhow if we did marry.
>We do not have enough money to pay for insurance, school, and the baby.
>I feel like I am ready for this.
>I used to not, but we talked to a woman at a counseling agency specifically
>about teen-pregnancy.
>We are a bit more confident now.
>It is difficult to be confident when parents are unsupportive.
>Remember that with your children.
>
>Does anyone object to this situation?
>If so, why?
>
>Ross Graham in Muncie, Indiana
>Ball State University
>

	Except for a couple of details, it sounds like my situation
	about 15 years ago.  What in particular is the question?

	I was a Junior in college when it happened.  I finished
	school, and worked full time for the next year and a half.

	It was hard.  The marriage broke up.  (Even without the
	"marriage", the relationship could break up.)

-- 
	Alan Yasutovich
	"inquiring  (and nosey) minds WANT TO KNOW!!!"
	I can remember when "safe sex" meant having a padded headboard!!
	Tick Tock.....Tick Tock......Tick Tock .....Tick Tock......
Xref: sparky alt.child-support:1117 alt.dads-rights:670
From: yasu@ll.mit.edu (Alan Yasutovich)
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
Subject: father out of a job.
Date: 7 Apr 92 15:07:16 GMT
Article-I.D.: ll.1992Apr7.150716.9300
Organization: MIT Lincoln Laboratory

>From: noraa@cbnewsk.cb.att.com (aaron.l.hoffmeyer)
>Newsgroups: alt.child-support
>Subject: Re: When the father is out of a job.
>
>In article <1992Apr4.002508.25760@SSD.intel.com> joel@ssd.intel.com (Joel Clark) writes:
>>I have worked out the difficulties with my EX who is CP to the point that 
>>things are very stable.
>>I send her $350 a month more than the Court Order.  She occaisionally asks
>>my opinion on parenting matters.  I see my son 1-2 weeks a year (that's all)
>>They live about 700 miles from here. 
>>I believe things are so "stable" because 
>>	I accepted that as a NCP there is no win-win for me. 
>>	There was only lose-or_be_hammered. 
>>
>>As CP it is her choice in all cases:
>>	The first and last name of the child.  
>>		(this was the first hard lesson for me) 
>>	The training.
>>	The schooling.
>>	Their residence location.
>>	visitation (her choice to cooperate or not, if not ....)
>>It is not worth whining or complaining BUT
>>	A NCP has NO chance for a win-win.
>>nuff said.
>>
>>joel
>>	
>
>Joel, you established a great precedence.  You've made it so much easier
>for the rest of us.  I guess we should just follow your path and
>minimize the hassles with our exes who want everything and will give up
>nothing - including any significant time with our children.


	On the one hand, based on numbers, I agree with	arron.  I think
	Joel is a bit of a sap to let himself be used.

	But on the other hand, in my own situation, I co-operate
	(Like I just did with a little extra $$$) to keep peace
	because my payments are so low. ($40/week).  By giving
	a couple hundred dollars toward a reasonable cause with no
	yelling or B.S. whatsoever, I think I bought a lot of
	good will.  This is particularly important to *ME* now as there
	is a threat in this regard for me.  Potential layoff.  And
	I want as many people to be on my side as possible.  But that's 
	me.  I think that many of the people
	here are getting reamed financially.  But I have seen a
	number of posts which indicate my support payment to be
	the "average" now.  I can only believe that this average
	is over decades where people's payments range from $20/week
	to thousands.


	But, like the State trooper said to me as he handed me my
	summons just ove 9 years ago, "It's only money".


-- 
	Alan Yasutovich
	"inquiring  (and nosey) minds WANT TO KNOW!!!"
	I can remember when "safe sex" meant having a padded headboard!!
	Tick Tock.....Tick Tock......Tick Tock .....Tick Tock......
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Thursday, 16 Apr 1992 10:43:53 EDT
From: Jennifer Brown <JLB155@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
Subject: Wills

Alan's post made me remember that I wanted to ask this:

Under what circumstances can a man's (or woman's I suppose)
biological or adopted children contest his/her will?
Specifically, a will where the children were not mentioned
because they were no longer a part of the man/woman's
family before the death.  ie.  Disowned.
Also, does one have to "disown" a person with some legal
process or can it just be a verbal "Get out of my life!"?

-Jennifer
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Thursday, 9 Apr 1992 11:45:48 EDT
From: Jennifer Brown <JLB155@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
Subject: Re: When the father is out of a job.
 <k6HkiB1w164w@xocolatl.com> <1992Apr4.002508.25760@SSD.intel.com>
 <1992Apr5.061306.23492@cbnewsk.cb.att.com>
 <1992Apr9.002919.1781@memstvx1.memst.edu>

In article <1992Apr9.002919.1781@memstvx1.memst.edu>,
thrushea@memstvx1.memst.edu says:
>I didn't see Coren's message - I thought she was looking for college
>money.
Coren wanted to know how her mother could make sure that she would
get the child support that was "due to them", even thought the father
was currently unemployed.  At the time of Coren's posting, the mother
and father had agreed to the father not paying anything while he had
NO income, up until he got another job.
Coren is 18 or 19, her sister is younger, that's why child support
is still being paid.  Unfortunately, unless the c-s could be lowered
for that time he was making no money, arrears would build regardless.
-Jennifer
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Saturday, 11 Apr 1992 11:25:40 EDT
From: Jennifer Brown <JLB155@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
Subject: Re: Making a change
Distribution: usa

In article <1992Apr10.181746.15600@talon.ucs.orst.edu>, kaufmanj@UCS.ORST.EDU
(John Kaufman) says:
>
>    If I pay X dollars a month for child support when my
>    children are with their mother, then shouldn't their
>    mother (in all fairness) pay me X dollars a month when
>    the children are living with me? If she can't do that,
>    doesn't it imply that she is not putting up her share of
>    the finacial burden when the children are in her care?

Fairness says she should pay you, in that case.  But that's what we
were discussing, *fairness*.  Which is what the courts are not.  Which
is what we want to get changed.

It should imply that.  I wonder, if the CP was a man, and the courts
decided to use "Pay whomever has physical custody of the children at
that moment", if they'd say "Man, pay woman."  But don't use that
rule, because most CPs are women, and don't want to get on the wrong
side of the Women's Rights Movement.

Anyone know if the "financial responsibility" thing would truly
hold up in court?

-Jennifer
From: root@dogear.spk.wa.us (Bob Kirkpatrick)
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
Subject: Re: This is not a flame.
Date: 13 Apr 92 18:19:53 GMT
Organization: Dog Ear'd Systems of Spokane, WA

In article <92102.093355JLB155@psuvm.psu.edu> JLB155@psuvm.psu.edu (Jennifer Brown) writes:
>Before I read today's postings, has anyone thought that the woman
>(thrushea@memstvx1.memst.edu) was trying to taunt us?  Getting us
>to reply, reply, reply.  It is just a thought.  It seemed strange
>for someone to post to so many things with such anger, from basically
>out of the blue, when her divorce had occured so long ago.
>-Jennifer

Some of the readers here sort of 'trip' over us as they peruse groups they
haven't read before. To see some of the discussion could dredge up feelings
that are ages old, in the same way that we might hear a song and have a
memory flash on something that happened long ago. When it happens, sometimes
it's powerful enough that we can 'hear' words that were said, 'see' things
that we saw, and even 'smell' things we smelled.

thrushea surely has some bitterness attached to her memories, and she may
have good reason. She has every right to be here, and I'm not so sure that
she's taunting us... it could easily be perceived as such (I sort of took it
that way), but it could just be venting something hidden away and festering
for a long, long time.

It'll be a lot easier to gauge if/when she comes back. If she continues to
participate, then maybe we can get a good look at things from her side, and,
if she's open, to see the other perspective too. All of us get pretty bitter
at times, and although I was offended by what she said, and reacted that way,
I'm still interested in listening, and I hope she is too.

There are two sides (maybe more) to every tale... :-/
-- 
root@dogear.spk.wa.us                 "Tomorrow I might go as far as suicide,
Bob Kirkpatrick                        But I'm not gonna let it bother me
Dog Ear'd Systems of Spokane, WA       tonight."                       --ars
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
From: smp@iti.org (Stanley M. Przybylinski)
Subject: Re: Making a change
Organization: Industrial Technology Institute
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 12:16:58 GMT

What about the situation where there was no marriage?  Then the argument
about maintaining the same standard of living as before the "divorce" goes
out the window.  Fathers pay based on their income, with the mothers income
affecting the total amount by very little.

Of course, the CP can quit their job, in effect decreasing the standard of
living for the child, with no repercussions.  If the NCP does that, most
states would come after them.  Even if you take a different job with better
prospects and less pay (as I did) the courts can impute what your income
should have been and make you pay at that rate.


-- 

Stan Przybylinski, Sr Member of the Technical Staff - Technology Transfer
Industrial Technology Institute, P.O. Box 1485, Ann Arbor, MI 48106
(313) 769-4517   FAX: (313) 769-4064
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Saturday, 11 Apr 1992 10:55:22 EDT
From: Jennifer Brown <JLB155@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
Subject: Re: knee-jerk reactions
 <1992Apr3.173828.19464@unx.sas.com> <1992Apr8.233159.1777@memstvx1.memst.edu>
 <783@dogear.spk.wa.us>

>There are an awful lot of men out there who pay child support in such
>exhorbinant amounts, that there is no reason at all for the mom to be
>employed.

If only Aaron would pay us the same amount he pays for child support.
Then, we would not have to work for the entire year.  $12,000+.
That's enough to live on, for two full grown adults plus the cat.

Yeah, if only we knew that the CPs weren't living off of the whole
child support payments.  If only they could prove the kids needed
that much for the necessities.  If only the CP had to pay their fair
share to the Domestic Services, before receiving it for the kids.

Then things would seem *fair*.

-Jennifer
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
From: vixie@pa.dec.com (Paul A Vixie)
Subject: Re: knee jerk
Organization: DEC Network Software Lab
Date: 8 Apr 92 22:39:08

>> How would you have felt [at age 18] about having to give it up and resign
>> yourself to either an inferior education or a lifetime in minimum wage jobs
>> while one of your parents lived in a house with a pool and a hot tub and
>> flew himself places in private planes?

This is a tough call since I hope that my son wants to go to college one day
and I fully expect to help him in every way that makes sense.  But since you
ask how I would have felt, I'll tell you that at age 18 I would have said
"my education is my problem, not my parents' problem, and though I would have
been happier if they had helped, I'm not going to fault them for doing or not
doing whatever they want to do with their money."

Children have a claim on their parents' support.  Adults (of age 18) do not.

As I said, I'm planning to be one of those parents who helps in every way no
matter how old my son is, but I do it for my own selfish motives and it only
happens to be true in my case that those selfish motives will probably still
apply even after my son is an adult.  If anyone else didn't have the same
selfish motives toward their adult children, I wouldn't fault them.
--
Paul Vixie, DEC Network Systems Lab	
Palo Alto, California, USA         	"Ready, Fire, Aim"
<vixie@pa.dec.com> decwrl!vixie
<paul@vix.com>     vixie!paul          alt.pink.bunny.boom.boom.boom moderator
Newsgroups: alt.child-support,alt.dads-rights
From: ktou@cac.washington.edu (Toussaint)
Subject: Dads Against Discrimination (DADS)
Keywords: DADS washington
Organization: U.W. Information Systems
Distribution: pnw
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 23:14:59 GMT

(Please note that I have attempted to limit the distribution of this
article to the Pacific Northwest {pnw}.  If you're not in Washington,
Oregon, Idaho you shouldn't be getting this message.)

Does anyone here have any experience working with DADS either in their
lobbying efforts or by using their consultation services?  I have been
going it alone in my divorce proceedings up to this point but my ex-wife
and I are at an impasse that might require me to ask for help (or even,
gulp, hire a LAWYER).

I would also be interested in an answer to the following question:

Do you know of any divorce case in the State of Washington where the 
child support order does not make any provisions for a transfer payment?

The current financial arrangement between my ex-wife and me is for me 
to pay ALL of the child-care and tuition costs.  The residential arrangement
is split 50%-50% (has been since 10/90).  I DO NOT want to be subject to
the jurisdiction of Washington state child support enforcement (thereby
reilnquishing my rights to due process under law in my opinion).

Is it now time to say:

"Freedom is irrelevant.
 Resistance is futile.
 You must comply."

???
-- 
    #include <stdDisclamer.h>---------------------------------------------
    Keith Maurice Toussaint              | Voice:  206.685.3235
    Univ. Of Washington; Mail Stop:JE-41 | Fax:    206.543.0831
    Seattle, WA  98105                   | E-mail: kTou@cac.washington.edu
Newsgroups: alt.child-support
From: shedevil@leland.Stanford.EDU (Paula Abdul Jabbar)
Subject: Re: knee jerk
Organization: Fathers' Rights & Equality Exchange
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 92 05:44:11 GMT

In a recent missive thrushea@memstvx1.memst.edu tells us:

*Question:  I have an 18 year old who is about to start college.  The
*schools, understandably, are not willing to give us much financial aid
*because of her father's income - why should they use their money to
*educate a child who has parents with income when there are other kids
*who don't? But her father doesn't want to pay what the schools consider
*his rightful contribution. He wants to "get the shackles off". So
*does she give up the chance for a good education?  

No...she works and puts herself through college.  Parents have no
obligation to put their children through college.  If the two of you
were still married, he could STILL say "no, put yourself through
college."

*I've saved and
*have some home equity and I'm perfectly willing to use it, but should
*I have to be wiped out because he doesn't want to carry his share?

That is your choice.  You are not obligated to pay for her education.
You apparently feel you want to, and that is commendable.  But that
doesn't mean you should judge others by your own standard of what is
right for *you*.  Sure it's frustrating...I'm *often* frustrated
too..right now I'm looking at putting my teenager into private school,
as it may be best for her...her father won't help, in fact he scoffs at
it and derides the "snobs in private school".  Sure it frustrates me,
but that doesn't make me right, or him wrong, or my view the only
correct one.


*her education will definitely pay off all the way around.  Most of
*you must have gone to college - and a lot of it was probably paid for
*by your parents. 

Wrong, I put myself through college and law school, while single
parenting with *no* child support.  Both my parents (divorced) worked
while my father was living, my mother still works. 

*How would you have felt about having to give it
*up and resign yourself to either an inferior education or a lifetime

And darn..last I checked Stanford Law was a top 10 law school.


But let me tell you about a feeling that I *did* have.  It was once told
to me that my father was a bad father because he didn't contribute to my
tuition.  I got a VERY bad feeling from that.  Against the person who
accused my father.  I resented the h*ll out of them, and, I still do.
Keep that in mind.




-- 
    LOOKING FOR: Michael Hobson, Alex Craven, David Runyon, & Lorna Taylor
I am: Anne Mitchell, mom, law student, shedevil@leland.stanford.edu or @vix.com
     	  founder of FREE, the Fathers Rights and Equality Exchange.
 The fathers' rights paper & FREE files available via ftp: gw.home.vix.com;/pub