HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mike.federchuk@rose.com
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: .22 gun for plinking
Date: 10 Sep 92 12:28:50 GMT

Date Entered: 09-10-92 03:27


I'm considering the purchase of a .22 rimfire pistol for plinking and very
informal target shooting.  I've looked at the Ruger Mark II, the Browning Buck
Mark, the S&W 41 and the S&W 442/622.  In general, I've made a pain-in-the-ass
of myself at just about every gun store around! :-)

Of all the guns I've handled, the S&W 422 fit my hand the best.  It just seemed
to feel, well...right.  I liked the other guns, but the 422 just seemed better
fitted to me.  (And hey, the 622 (stainless version of the 422) looks pretty
cool too ;-)

Since it will be at least 4 months (and you thought a 15 day waiting period is
bad?!) before I can purchase the gun, I'd like some feed back on the
quality/durability of this gun.  What is so special about the S&W 41 that it is
almost $300CDN more than the S&W 422/622?  A 422 costs about the same as the
Ruger Mark II, is it as good?  Any general impressions, comments, practical
experience would be appreciated, but remember, I'm not interested in competition
type shooting.

Basically, I don't want to wait that long, and then plunk down money for a
"lemon".

E-mail would be great.  I don't want to try our Moderator's patience by starting
another "first gun" thread; this gun wont/can't be used for self-defence.  This
is to be my first pistol, after I get my Ontario "permit to convey".
	[MODERATOR: For threads like this Your Humble Moderator has plenty
	 of patience.  We'll be happy to hear a review from you later.]

Regards, (and thanx in advance too)
Mike

Mike Federchuk              |
Burlington, Ontario, Canada |
Mike.Federchuk@rose.com     |
---
   OLX 2.2   Dyslexics Of The World:  Untie!
   RoseMail 2.00 : Usenet: Rose Media - Hamilton (416) 575-5363
From: wjc@ll.mit.edu (Bill Chiarchiaro)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: North Country Shoot
Date: 4 Sep 92 23:44:25 GMT
Organization: MIT Lincoln Laboratory, Lexington MA



  About a year ago, there was a posting in this group about the North
Country Shoot --- an automatic gun shooting event held in New
Hampshire.

  Does anyone have any more information about this event, such as when
it will next be held?


Thanks,

Bill Chiarchiaro
wjc@ll.mit.edu
From: schuette@roadkill.nrl.navy.mil (Larry Schuette)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: stupid shooters / range commands
Date: 11 Sep 92 20:11:58 GMT


Hi,
	I was enjoying my lunch hour at the range yesterday
when a stupid shooter reared his ugly head.  The range (Mrytle Grove)
is provided by the state of Maryland as a curtesy to shooters and
is unsupervised.  This means that everyone agrees to range hot / clear
and that in general people are pretty polite with each other.

	As I was shooting my .45, I noticed out of the corner of my eye
someone dashing down range.  I pointed my pistol at the ground and 
yelled something to attract the attention of the other shooters.  
Everyone stopped and the downrange shooter proceeded to "fix" his
target that had fallen.  The shooter in question is an NCO from a nearby
facility who knew better (obviously), but "forgot".

	I realized that I should know all of the offical range commands 
by heart at that point. In hindsite a "CEASE FIRE" would have been 
correct, but because I had to think, I was unable to react correctly
(although shouting did work).  I thought I saw a list of such commands
posted a while back, does anybody have them to repost?

	On a side note, my Firestar .45acp is really a joy to shoot,
and extremely easy to fieldstrip, well worth the $370.00.

Larry
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
	"The quality of the kite matters little.  Success depends upon
		the man who sits in it."		BMv. Richthofen

Lawrence C. Schuette			  schuette@roadkill.nrl.navy.mil
Code 5133				  (202)767-2739  
Naval Research Laboratory		  (202)767-5561 (fax) 	
Washington D.C.	20375-5000
From: swatt%mickey@net.yale.edu (Alan Watt)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Black Talon ammo
Date: 9 Sep 92 03:16:09 GMT
Organization: Yale University, Computing & Information Systems


In article <9209081143.aa04431@claudius.pica.army.mil>, erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID) writes:
|> 
|> Henry Schaffer writes:
|> #Cal.  bull wt  MV  50 yds  ME  50 yds  Barrel Lgth
|> #9mm     147   990   945   320   292       4"
|> 
|> 
|> If they made the 9mm load any wimpier it'd be a good .380 load :)
|> 
|> I wonder how this Black Talon design would work in a proper 9mm load,
|> with a 115-125 gr bullet at 1250 ft/s or so?

I sort of wondered about the .45 load also -- it used a 230 gr. bullet,
whereas all the rest of the special defense ammo I'm aware of uses 200
or even 185.  I have some Corbon +P ammo that claims 1050 f.p.s. with a
200 gr. bullet.  BTW: the Corbon .45 ammo was used by Ken Tapp to take
overall high honors at this year's Second Chance shoot -- so we know it's
good for killing bowling pins.

It rather seems like Winchester designed around Dr. Fackler's theories,
which as I read it, remain unproven.

Does Black Talon ammo get reliable expansion at the sub-1000 fps velocities?
If so, this is something new in itself.

-- 
  Alan S. Watt
  Yale University			Computing and Information Systems
  Box 2112 Yale Station			(203) 432-6602
  New Haven, CT  06520-2112		Watt-Alan@Yale.Edu
From: damiel@netcom.com (Paul Theodoropoulos)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Police Story (was Re: Summary: Concealed Carry...)
Date: 9 Sep 92 21:27:40 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

In <1992Sep8.135644.29837@ke4zv.uucp> ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman) writes:
#racing through his mind for having shot a suspect in the back. Much to
#his surprise, he finds the perp intact and trembling. The perp says, "I 
#give up! Just don't shoot that thing again!" The concussion had knocked
#him down, not to mention deafening him.

now THAT'S a laugh. if you believe the concussion really knocked him down, 
and not the *psychological response* to the concussive blast, i have some
*gauranteed* one-shot-stop ammo i'd like to sell you.... 

-- 
paul theodoropoulos                          damiel@netcom.com
From: kknox@logdis1.hq.aflc.af.mil (Kevin P. Knox)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Loading Ques
Date: 10 Sep 92 19:28:12 GMT

A friend of min asked me a question I'm not quite sure of.  He is
reloading for the 9mm (9x19).  He was using Win 231, 5.0 grains.  I
can't remember the bullet weight.  He ran out of 231 and wants to
finish off a can of Blue Dot.  The manual he is using calls for 8.2
grains of Blue Dot for the same bullet weight.  My friend says that
the bullet compresses this load in the case.  He was concerned about
this.  Can anybody tell me if this is a hazard?

Thanks. --- Kev

==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==
|  Kevin Knox, Assistant DDN NSC            KKNOX@192.12.64.3        |
|  WPAFB 2046 Comm Group, BCTF                                       |
|  DSN 787-4088                  KKNOX@LOGDIS1.HQ.AFLC.WPAFB.AF.MIL  |
|                                                                    |
| "Time flies like an arrow............. Fruit flies like a banana!" |
|                                                                    |
|   "My opinions are my own and should  probably stay that way!"     |
==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==
From: jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Help Cleaning Brass.
Date: 15 Sep 92 19:25:14 GMT
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University

#From article <9209141612.AA06534@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov>, by weed@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov (daniel weed 283-4162):
# 
# -----
# 
# I am fairly new to handloading, and I need some information on brass cleaning.
# I plan on buying a vibratory case cleaner, big enough to hold around 500
# rounds of handgun brass (9mm and .45 ACP).
#

I tend to do lots of 100 to keep track of the brass usage and
head stamps, etc.
 
# Which cleaners do you like or dislike?  Which companys are good or bad
# to deal with?
# 

I have had good luck lately with Bon-Ami and either walnut hulls
or ground corncobs.  We got some dark gray - black media at the
gun show a couple of years ago that worked excellently, alas I
didn't get the name of it.  Does anyone have any idea what it
might have been?

# I'm currently planning to buy a Dillon cleaner; they have a new smaller 
# cleaner for about $60.  I'm very satisfied with their customer support, and 
# it has a lifetime guarantee.
#

Ours is a Thumbler I believe.  I'm not sure there is one clearly
better than another, although I think Lyman had a cute system.
 
# What kind of media and polish should I use?  A friend used "Brasso" which
# can be found in most grocery stores.  Should I pay more for specialty
# cleaners?
# 

I used it some myself, but have since come to understand that the
ammonia in the "Brasso" can/does make the brass cases brittle.  I
presume it has the same effect on nickeled brass as well.

# Any experiance out there with homemade media separators?
#

Well, I used a caulender (sp?) for a while until I found a
plastic thing designed for the task for ~$5.00.
 
# Are there any good alternatives to using vibratory cleaners?  No - my wife
# won't let me put my brass in the washing machine. (never ask first).
#

Well, there are tumblers which are often used to polish stones
for jewelry.  I doubt that the washing machine would work too
well in any case unless it is the old wringer type... 
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas Moore)
From: ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Police Story (was Re: Summary: Concealed Carry...)
Date: 13 Sep 92 00:11:59 GMT
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group

In article <1992Sep11.034514.28621@access.digex.com> cherry@access.digex.com (Cherry Poptart) writes:
#In article <1992Sep10.081449.10066@ke4zv.uucp> ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman) writes:
##
##Frankly I'm surprised that no one has commented on how foolish and
##dangerous it was to fire that "warning" shot in an urban neighborhood.
##If I'd been in charge of that department, my friend would be driving
##a desk at best. As it was, he was lucky and the shot didn't hit anyone
##and he got away with it.
#
#Dont worry.  When the review board reviews the 
#shoot, they will ask him where that round went,
#what it was aimed at, what was behind and around
#the intended target, what the possibility for 
#hitting bystanders was, etc.  Every law enforcement
#agency that I am familiar with accounts for 
#every single round that is discharged on duty,
#even if nobody was actually shot.  Paranoia is
#the name of the game.

Review board? Surely you're joking. This is a small town, even
the Mayor is a part timer. To answer another poster's question,
the reason the cop was carrying a .44 to begin with is that the
town is too cheap to supply on duty weapons and leaves that up
to the individual officer. They're also reimbursed mileage for
patrolling in their own cars.

Gary
From: pauly@netcom.com (Paul Yoshimune)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Comments on S&W-645 ?
Date: 5 Sep 92 14:57:25 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <1992Sep4.040344.14793@latcs1.lat.oz.au> jd@latcs1.lat.oz.au (John Dimogotsis) writes:
#
#	I heard that there is such a thing as a S&W 645, has anyone had
#	experience with this firearm? How does it compare with modern
#	popular 9mm semi-autos or .357 revolvers?
#						Thanks	jd.

Actually, the 645 has been replaced by the newer 4506.  Both are .45 ACP 
pistols, with double-action first shots, and single-action thereafter.  I
believe they have 8-round capacities, but are much bigger in the grip than
a 1911.  By all accounts I've heard (never shot one), they're excellent
weapons.



-- 
DVC,
  Paul

Paul Yoshimune
pauly@netcom.com
From: cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (Chris Luchini)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: re: Black Talon ammo
Date: 7 Sep 92 00:39:24 GMT
Organization: High Energy Physics, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign

In article <1992Sep6.014839.24778@ncsu.edu>, hes@ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer) writes:
#
	[Black Talon ]
#  Then they give specs for 4 cartridges - I assume that these are the
#only ones the have (so far.)  Here are some of them:
#
#Cal.  bull wt  MV  50 yds  ME  50 yds  Barrel Lgth
#9mm     147   990   945   320   292       4"
#40S&W   180   990   938   392   352       4"
#10mm    200   990   941   435   394       5"
#45ACP   230   850   814   369   338       5"
#

	Does anyone have any specs on the PMC/Eldarado Starfire
	ammo? I've looked at it, and it looks like a typical wide
	mouthed hollow point with internal fins of lead. It look
	like it should expand rapidly. BTW the bullet weights are
	more like nominal weights (ie 115 grain 9mm, 180 grain 10mm, etc)
	rather than the Black Talon ammo which is all at the heavy end
	of the bullet weight range.
*1110 W. Green/Urbana IL 61801/217-333-0505/cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu 
* for sale: Springfield Armory Factory Comp, 38 Super, +3 mags. All new
* in box (never fired at all).  $650 or best offer over $600 as of Sep 30.
From: edhresko@hresko.EOS.NCSU.EDU (ERIC DAVID HRESKO)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Reloading equipm.
Date: 8 Sep 92 16:54:28 GMT
Organization: Techno-Geeks Inc.



|>A friend is going to Austin Texas. What are the prises in the area
|>for an non-progressive loading starter kit. I`m going to use it to
|>bring down my practising cost for 6,5*55 , 9,3*57 or 7.62*51 nato.

	Don't know anything about costs down there, but I can tell you that
unless you are talking about hunting rounds, you cannot reload 7.62x51 for less
than you can buy surplus or overrun ammo.  I have tried and cannot do it.
-- 


Eric

******************************************************************************
Eric Hresko		* Mail:  edhresko@eos.ncsu.edu                       * 
Kanki House of Steaks   * Voice: (why would you want to call?) 1-919-821-5168*
Dishwasher 2nd Class    * HK Rules!!! (But a FAL will do in a pinch)         *
DISCLAIMER:  I don't wear sandals, eat granola, or tiptoe thru the Tulips    *
******************************************************************************
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Ruger Packaging
Date: 13 Sep 92 23:17:00 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath) writes:
#.mil> erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID) writes:

#}... Molded into the lid of the box on the inside were words to
#}the effect that the pistol came packed with safety instructions and if
#}missing write. ...
#Ruger has always been good about this.  Their revolvers come with
#the same instructions engraved on the barrel.

#}... the magazines have affixed to them fluorescent
#}orange warning labels. ...

#What did the warning labels say?

..."Warning: this gun is 43 times more likely to be used on a resident
of your own household than on an intruder."		8^)

I couldn't stop myself.  Irresistible impulse you know.

Jim Del Vecchio
From: scott@sgisupport.lerc.nasa.gov (SGI_Junkie)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: AR-15 clones
Date: 14 Sep 92 19:15:45 GMT
Organization: NASA Lewis Research Center [Cleveland, Ohio]

In article <9209131756.AA19154@unix.cie.rpi.edu> vanetten@unix.cie.rpi.edu (John S. Van Etten) writes:
#A friend of mine is interested in building an AR-15 type of rifle for use as

# company called Nesard out in Illinois that lists kits for $285
#including all parts but a lower receiver (which I can get him for about
#$75).  Has anyone ever dealt with Nesard?  Who makes their parts (are they
#made in the USA)?  Has anyone out there ever assembled one of these kits?
#How do you like it?
#John


  I built two AR-15 from Nesard, I prefer them since the barrel is already
  ground and milled to fit the upper receiver an operation which would have
  to be done profesionally otherwise.

  The parts I received were all new with the exception of the Stock, pistol
  grip and front barrel cover which looked to be military Surplus used Colt.

  One part was defective a spring which was sheared off and too short. All
  parts came in three shipments. Spend the extra $10 bucks to get a chrome
  lined barrel. Anyone should be able to assemble it. Get an H-BAR as well.
  If it is available, If you sell the gun it will pay off. An assembled
  Gun will draw $400.

  The Biggest complaint I had was the TOTAL piece of crap clip that they sent
  me, I bought some Surplus Colt clips to sell with the gun and "threw in"
  the 30 round plastic clip. It did'nt feed correctly.

  Be prepared to spend some time fitting things together and looking for
  Extra's (A full length sling, clip, cleaning tools, etc) and It will
  be fine, Don't expect to order it on Monday and be shooting it by Sat.
  Order two: Build one with the choice parts and keep it, Build another
  for practice building it, and sell it.             sk
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: AMT Lightning
Date: 16 Sep 92 00:31:13 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

burge@qdeck.com (Bill Burge) writes:

#I have one of the first one's of these to roll out.  It has the 10 1/2"
#barrel for 22lr sil. (little critters) and came with Micro brand sights.
#I was bummed to see them drop the Micro sights.  From a creedmore pose
#mine has made .5" groups at 50 yards reliably using Win T-22 ammo.
#VERY HAPPY

What is a creedmore pose?   Mine is identical to yours, and seems
to put em' exactly where I aim, so no complaints.  

I don't understand how Ruger could have sued them though, as the 
original Ruger patent was 1949.  I wish they still made them.

Jim D
From: hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Reloading dies.  What do you think?
Date: 14 Sep 92 14:23:48 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University

In article <1992Sep14.005516.7025@ncsu.edu> hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer) writes:
# ...

and illustrates why one should be very careful regarding loading
information which is posted  :-(

# ...  The AA manual suggests starting with
#21.3 gr. of AA2015BR with a max of 23.7 gr (53 gr. bullet.)  I've
#been shooting 21.6 and 22 gr.  He told me to try 22.5.  He also
                                                  ^^^^23.5
#told me of a local experimenter who has concluded that 2015BR is
#rather temperature sensitive, with 21.3 gr. on a cold day and
                                    ^^^^23.3
#23.7 gr. on a hot day being equivalent.

--henry schaffer  n c state univ

[MODERATOR: Good catch, Henry!!]
From: hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Ring as hand gun safety?
Date: 14 Sep 92 22:41:15 GMT
Organization: The Cat Factory

In article <1992Sep13.171520.19787@cube.handheld.com> jmd@cube.handheld.com (Jim De Arras) writes:
}I just heard from a friend that there exists a handgun that requires the  
}operator to wear a ring in order to fire it.  Sounds like an advantage in a  
}situation where the gun might get taken from you.  Also where there are kids in  
}the house.

The Magna-trigger after-market modification used to be available for S&W
revolvers.  It required the shooter to be wearing a magnetic
samarium-cobalt ring for the gun to function.  Cost was about $350.

I've heard it occasionally caused the gun to refuse to fire, ring or no
ring.  For that reason most police departments rejected it as standard
issue.

There was only one person doing the modification (M. Ayoob's brother-in-
law?) and he doesn't any more.  I've heard he's willing to license the
technology, if anyone's interested.

The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com)
Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp                   Turn the rascals out!
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.   (310) 450-9111, x2483     No incumbents in '92!
Santa Monica, CA  90405
From: biocca@bevsun.bev.lbl.gov (Alan K Biocca)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Guns for sale
Date: 15 Sep 92 19:25:29 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory, California

In article <BuH6Jp.6B@news.cso.uiuc.edu> cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (Chris Luchini) writes:

#	What kind of accuracy do you S&W41/Buck Mark Target/Ruger shooters
#	get with your pistols?

I have the Ruger Government 22 (the slightly longer bull barreled Mark-II).

I have a 1x scope on it now, and it shoots way under 1" at 25 yards.  I haven't
benchrested it so I don't know precisely, but I suspect it will group into
3/8-1/2", maybe better.

Alan K Biocca
From: r36110m@kaira.hut.fi (Mika Matti Jalava)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: First Gun Suggestions?
Date: 9 Sep 92 21:27:27 GMT
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland

In article <1992Sep8.134139.29729@ke4zv.uucp> ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman) writes:
#a .45 semi-auto. The .22 pistol is a specialist's weapon with limited
#appeal to the average shooter except for it's cheap ammo. 

A specialist's weapon? Is everybody only interested in self defence
when talking about handguns?

I have been shooting quite a few different handguns and still cannot
think a better one than a .22 for target shooting. Is the big bang and
kick what people look for when shooting? IMHO, the the important
factors when choosing a handgun (for target shooting purposes) are
1) accuracy
2) accuracy again
3) the price of ammo (you want to shoot a lot, don't you?)
4) nice if the gun looks good...

Depending on your finances, the price of the gun also counts. But the
loud noise and big kick don't fit here. Some people even dislike them.

Hunting and self defence are a completely different matter. Also
sports like silhouette and IPSC. I would call those more like "special
purposes".

To me, if the only purpose of the handgun is to punch holes in a paper
target 25 meters (or yards) away (don't know about US, but here that
is the only purpose of vast majority of handguns used by civilians),
there is absolutely no need for more power than what .22 lr offers.

	Mika
From: jaf@a2.cim.cdc.com (James Foster x2197)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Sears shotgun
Date: 9 Sep 92 21:27:44 GMT

I have a Sears 12 gauge pump shotgun from the mid 1970's.  Does anybody
know who was likely to have manufactured this (Savage maybe?), and 
how to tell exactly?  It handles 3" shells and came with two barrels,
one a slug barrel.  I need to replace the slug barrel and would like to have a 
starting point for what I'm looking for when calling local shops.

Thanks,

Jim
From: watt-alan@net.yale.edu (Alan Watt)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Buying fired brass
Date: 15 Sep 92 19:24:40 GMT
Organization: Yale University, Computing & Information Systems



For low-pressure rounds like .38 spl, once-fired brass is fine.  I wouldn't
use used brass (except my own) for any modern rifle cartridge, or a 
high-pressure pistol cartridge (.357 or .44 magnum).  You can't tell the
difference between once-fired and twice-or-more-fired cases.

On the other hand, if you are going to load to moderate pressures, your
brass will last forever anyway; spreading out the cost of new brass over
20+ reloadings means you're not saving very much to buy used.

The only place where I would consider buying used brass 
is for practice ammo for an auto-loader, where you lose a fair amount of
the empties.  Then I would load it mild.
-- 
  Alan S. Watt
  Yale University			Computing and Information Systems
  Box 2112 Yale Station			(203) 432-6602
  New Haven, CT  06520-2112		Watt-Alan@Yale.Edu