HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: amirza@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Anmar Caves)
Subject: Re: Why not 120 VDC ?  Why invert?
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 14:56:49 GMT

In article <1993Jan23.061702.18014@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> rcanders@nyx.cs.du.edu (Rod Anderson) writes:
>In article <1993Jan23.000753.14523@michael.apple.com> ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith) writes:
>>It seems like an incredibly stupid question to me, but I've got
>>to ask it ...
>>
>>Pondering this ...  Why not just use a 120 VDC battery pack and use
>>120 VDC for a bunch of stuff?  Lightbulbs don't care if they are
>>AC or DC, nor do electric stoves and ovens or other resistive heat
>>sources.  Some tools have AC/DC motors.  120 VDC was a common motor
>>type not too long ago, so I'd expect some motors to be available
>>for things like house fans.
>>
>If you use a 12 volt system you can start out with one set of batteries
>and add capacity in parallel.  If you are on 120 volts dc you have 10
>times the number of cells.  The initial cost for a 120 volt system will be
>much higher. 

In addition, there will be ten times the number of cells in series.  Any one
cell failure can ruin a bank.  Ideally all cells in a series bank should be
of equal age and capacity.  Personally, if there weren't this little
resistance problem I'd rather have everything be 2 volt (or 1.2 volt)
and run the world on very low voltage.  There'd be no electrocution.
But since R rears it's head this isn't practical.  It's really not
much of a problem since high efficiency inverters have become
available.  BTW, some larger set ups *do* run 120VDC and use a
specially designed inverter to convert to AC.  

-- 
Anmar Mirza   # Chief of Tranquility  #My Opinions! NotIU's!#Purveyor of
EMT-D         # Base, Lawrence Co. IN # Legalize Explosives!#nontraditional
N9ISY (tech)  # Somewhere out on the  # Politicians prefer  #family values
Networks Tech.# Mirza Ranch.C'mon over# unarmed peasants.   #Space For Rent
From: howard.smith@spacebbs.com (Howard Smith)
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: Re: Greenpeace press rele
Date: 26 Jan 93 14:25:00 GMT
Reply-To: howard.smith@spacebbs.com (Howard Smith)
Organization: SPACE BBS - Menlo Park, CA - 10 Lines + 4gB - 415-323-4193

JD>=o= I don't think that anyone, Greenpeace included, is going
JD>to argue that these press releases are any substitute for
JD>scientific research.  Having been both a press agent and an
JD>editor, I've been on both ends of many press releases.  They
JD>are odd beasts, hastily written in odd prose designed to be
JD>all things to all people.  I know of no organization whose
JD>press releases don't suffer from these problems.

An additional problem is that not all press releases are quoted verbatim
in their entirety by most publications. They are excerpted and rewritten
by staff writers who may not have an adequate background. Recently,
I read a rewritten story about solar energy which included the phrase
"solar insulation" when obviously from the context of the story the
phrase should have been "solar insolation". The staff writer or editor
not knowing the difference.

Howard Smith

American Hydrogen Association BBS (415)494-3116
1200-14,400 baud (V.32bis V.42bis)  8N1  24 hrs
Hydrogen Energy -  Prosperity without Pollution

---
 . SLMR 2.1a . Nothing is so smiple that it can't get screwed up.
                                         
----
SPACE BBS - Menlo Park, CA - 10 Lines - BoardWatch Top Ten BBS
415-323-4193 (v.32bis) - 4gB (50,000 files) + Wx, UPI News, etc.
Newsgroups: sci.energy,talk.environment
From: cls@truffula.sj.ca.us (Cameron L. Spitzer)
Subject: Re: Greenpeace press releases -- fact or fiction?
Organization: Save the Humans!
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 93 20:25:00 GMT
Followup-To: talk.environment
Summary: who's rude?  why?
Keywords: vibes watcher

In article <1jtullINN2sr@gap.caltech.edu>, Carl J Lydick writes:
>In article <1jr5ceINN16a@gap.caltech.edu>, Carl J Lydick writes:
>>For the innumerates like Jym Dyer among you...
>It's rather telling that Victor-the-idiot Yackadamn chose to flame me over my
>presumption that GreenHype ...

Why is it necessary to throw personal insults?  Is hatred *ever*
constructive?  Is it only my imagination or do Greenpeace detractors
resort to insults and personal abuse much more frequently than
Greenpeace subscribers?  What does abusive language say about the
speaker's personal values?


>for example, the release posted by Jym a couple of months ago that made
>a big thing about the fact that plutonium had been detected on the beaches near
>Sellafield, but neglected to say anything at all about concentrations).

The scandal is that plutonium was released at all, not in what
concentration it was released.  It shows the plant is not being
operated responsibly.


Cameron
--
Mail your calm, well-thought-out complaints about Greenpeace to:
greenpeace-knocks@truffula.sj.ca.us.  Please try to be as specific
as you can.
Newsgroups: sci.energy
From: gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman)
Subject: Re: NEWS: True Costs of Commercial Nuclear Power -- The Economic Failure
Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman)
Organization: Destructive Testing Systems
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 20:25:18 GMT

In article <1993Jan25.031717.8086@hpcvca.cv.hp.com> abrown@hpcvcec.cv.hp.com (Allen Brown) writes:
>
>I also want the cost of Desert Storm to be included in the cost of
>gas.  If we didn't have to worry about having our oil supply cut off
>we could reduce the size of the military.

Ok, you can include the cost of Desert Storm, but we get to count
the *profit* from Desert Storm. Hint, the Allies, including Japan
and Germany, kicked in more money than the operation cost us. Saudi
Arabia alone kicked in $38 billion in direct payments to the US
Treasury.

Don't forget that we cancelled our annual rapid deployment exercise
and our annual European combined operations that year at a huge
cost savings. We also got some very good live fire weapons testing
done at no extra charge. The boost in M1A and F16 sales alone resulting
from Desert Storm were major economic boosts. We demonstrated the
futility of nations buying Soviet weapons instead of ours. Desert
Storm was highly profitable.

Gary

-- 
Gary Coffman KE4ZV          |    You make it,     | gatech!wa4mei!ke4zv!gary
Destructive Testing Systems |    we break it.     | uunet!rsiatl!ke4zv!gary
534 Shannon Way             |    Guaranteed!      | emory!kd4nc!ke4zv!gary      
Lawrenceville, GA 30244     |                     |
From: aa139@Freenet.carleton.ca (Mike Lynch)
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: Re: Greenpeace press releases -- fact or fiction?
Date: 24 Jan 93 18:49:36 GMT
Organization: National Capital Freenet, Ottawa, Canada


While I believe that groups like Greenpeace serve a very important function
in questioning things like nuclear power, I share the opinion that 
Greenpeace does use propaganda to its own dismerit. I will cite two cases.

The first case involves a film I watched last summer. I have been trying to
recall the name but it escapes me.  I will find it out and post it later.
In any case it was produced by a Norwegian (?).  The film examines the role
and modus operandi of Greenpeace in attacking major industries in Nordic
countries (incl. Iceland and Greenland) and Newfoundland....re whaling, sealing
and fur trade. It shows the tactics involved and the degree to which the
facts have been distorted. It then refers to an issue in Australia where 
Greenpeace tried to claim that baby kangaroos were being unmercifully
slaughtered along the lines of the baby seals in Newfoundland.  It 
turned out that the Greenpeace filming of the slaughter of baby kangaroos
was in fact not fact but done by actors (greenpeace actors).  Those 
individuals were taken to court and successfully prosecuted.

The film was only shown on national television, I believe in Iceland.
Greenpeace managed to block the Norwegian film elsewhere. This says a lot
about this organization's philosophy about democracy, etc.

The film is well produced and in documentary style where the counter
arguments from reputable organizations and individuals to Greenpeace
claims are made. 

The second case involves a meeting I hosted as President of a very active
...community association in Ottawa.  The meeting dealt with water quality
and what we as residents could do about it. The meeting room was standing
room only.  We had a panel with reps from localenvironmental activist
groups, provincial, regional and local government government organizations.
In attendance was a good cross section of local politicians. The meeting 
went very well and we learned a lot.  However, close to the end of the 
meeting we had a Greenpeace lobbyist appear who literally ranted on 
about how we should be effectively scaling the Peace Tower of the Parliament
Buildings to make our points. To say the least, the audience was a little
stunned, particularly as this individual had not even be present at the 
meeting to participate and hear what was in fact accomplished.

I approached the Greenpeace person after the meeting to suggest that if he
was interested in helping us out that he should get involved in our
ongoing effort. He showed no interest in doing so. I was left with the impression that he couldn't care less.  He was more interested in establishing his
lobbyist crede
credentials with a local politician. So much for Greenpeace!

-- 
Newsgroups: sci.energy
From: schumach@convex.com (Richard A. Schumacher)
Subject: Re: Energy from space Sustain Future
Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 00:50:35 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

Yes, space power stations are kinda expensive. No, they're not
dangerous. The power densities in the beam are harmlessly low.
You might not want to live in one, but passing planes and birds
would not be in danger.  Besides, it's expensive to make a tight
beam at the Earth's surface because it requires a larger antenna
array in orbit.

As for clouds and rain, an intelligent
designer would pick a frequency that was little absorbed or
scattered by rain and clouds. This has all been discussed to
death before.
Newsgroups: sci.energy
From: dpe@inel.gov (Don Palmrose)
Subject: Re: Energy from space Sustain Future
Organization: INEL EG&G Idaho
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 20:22:06 GMT

In article <1466300153@igc.apc.org>, adastra@igc.apc.org (Ad Astra Ltd.) writes:
> 
> 
> Energy from space Sustainable futures
> Using energy from space, satellite power systems, transmitted
> to earth via microwaves offers a sustainable, environmentally
> benign source of energy
> 
> 

Been there, saw that, did that.....

Yeah, until you in a plane or some bird happen to fly through the beam.
Plus what do you do when there is a big rain/snow storm over the ground
station?  This concept has been around for about twenty years and the only 
money spent has shown that to do this is very expensive and not worth the
time compared to other atlernatives like ground solar stations and even 
wind power stations.

Don Palmrose




========== long legal disclaimer follows, press n to skip ===========

Neither the United States Government or the Idaho National Engineering
Laboratory or any of their employees, makes any warranty, whatsoever,
implied, or assumes any legal liability or responsibility regarding any
information, disclosed, or represents that its use would not infringe
privately owned rights.  No specific reference constitutes or implies
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Government or the Idaho National Engineering Laboratory.  The views and
opinions expressed herein do not necessarily reflect those of the
United States Government or the Idaho National Engineering Laboratory,
and shall not be used for advertising or product endorsement purposes.
From: jamesh@aifh.ed.ac.uk (James Hammerton)
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: Re: Real vs Govt Energy costs (Re: Roads and Taxes)
Date: 24 Jan 93 13:29:08 GMT
Reply-To: jamesh@aifh.ed.ac.uk (James Hammerton)
Organization: Dept of AI, University of Edinburgh, Scotland

In article <1993Jan22.190333.10528@ttinews.tti.com>, sorgatz@avatar.tti.com
(sorgatz) writes:

# 
#  Right. Just what I'd expect to come spouting from a socialist. Get real
# Chris! Look at your own two points and think about this:
# 
# 1) Americans pay less tax per person because we are free enough to tell 
# the bastards in Washington DC to keep a lid on it! Unlike those of you 
# that have abdicated your personal responsibility for what your government
# does to you in the name of 'social progress'.
# 
# 2) Our infrastructure serves those of us that work for a living quite well!
# ..those that refuse to get with the program are left to their own devices
# and that's the name of that tune.
# 
#  Something else to consider: Look at the shambles that government-ownership
# has done to the UK's industrial system: The airlines, the oil and coal
firms
# ...need I say more?
# 
# 
# -Avatar-> (aka: Erik K. Sorgatz) KB6LUY          
+-------------------------+
# TTI(sorgatz@soldev.tti.com)                       *   Think Eco, not EGO!  
*
# 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. Santa Monica, CA  90405    
+-------------------------+
# (OPINIONS EXPRESSED DO NOT REFLECT THE VIEWS OF CITICORP OR ITS
MANAGEMENT!)

Look at the shambles that the Conservatives have made of our industrial
system
over the last decade. They've all but massacred our coal industry,
manufacturing industry, steel etc... Unemployment went through the roof in
the early eighties and never quite recovered, and indeed is on it's way up
again. We are in the deepest and longest recession since the thirties 
depression and homelessness seems to be a permanent feature of our cities.
All this after thirteen years of Thatcher/Reagan style conservatism.

James


-- 
*  James Hammerton               *  If Pascal is equivalent to the     *
*  Email: jamesh@uk.ac.ed.aisb   *  mini-metro,then ML is the concept  *
*                                *  car where steering is done         *
*                                *  recursively using the gearstick.   *
Newsgroups: sci.energy
From: feg@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (forrest.e.gehrke)
Subject: Re: NEWS: True Costs of C
Organization: AT&T
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 19:06:11 GMT

In article <5543.1017.uupcb@spacebbs.com> john.holmgren@spacebbs.com (John Holmgren)  writes:

>   If you'd ever been to Altamount pass you'd know that wind-power is NOT 
>a hit and miss affair. The wind ALWAYS blows fiercely thru that pass. 
>It'll drive you nuts.
>
>---
> . WinQwk 2.0 a#0 . Unregistered Evaluation Copy
>    
>----
>SPACE BBS - Menlo Park, CA - 10 Lines - BoardWatch Top Ten BBS
>415-323-4193 (v.32bis) - 4gB (50,000 files) + Wx, UPI News, etc.

So what is keeping you there right on the coast in Menlo Park?
Go to Altamount and make a killing.  All that free power should
drive you right into the bank.

Forrest Gehrke feg@dodger.att.com


Newsgroups: sci.energy,talk.environment
From: dean@vexcel.com (Dean Alaska)
Subject: Re: NEWS: True Costs of Commercial Nuclear Power -- The Economic Failure
Keywords: energy environment press
Organization: VEXCEL Corporation, Boulder CO
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 21:35:46 GMT

In article <1993Jan20.234321.28329@netcom.com> mvp@netcom.com (Mike Van Pelt) writes:
>In article <1993Jan12.175726.467@gn.ecn.purdue.edu> constant@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Tino) writes:
>>In article <C0qsD6.MuB@dcs.ed.ac.uk> jh@dcs.ed.ac.uk (James Hammerton) writes:
>>>you are aware of just how much evidence Greenpeace has?
>>You are aware of just how often they make severe errors in their press 
>>releases?
>
>How about the several Greenpeace press releases demanding an immediate
>ban on all use of chlorine compounds.  ("You there!  Put down that salt
>shaker or we'll shoot!!")
>
>After several months of ridicule, they finally managed to obtain a 
>fractional clue, and changed it to "organochlorine compounds."
>
I have always heard it referred to as the chlorine manufacturing
industry (which provides chlorine by separating salts), or as
organochlorines.  In any case, the call is for a phase out of
such chemicals.

Is your objection to the confusion with salt, or with the overall
position against organochlorines?
>-- 
>Mike Van Pelt          | What happens if a big asteroid hits Earth?
>mvp@netcom.com         | Judging from realistic simulations involving a
>                       | sledge hammer and a common laboratory frog, we
>                       | can assume it will be pretty bad. -- Dave Barry


-- 
==============================================================================
	Dean Myerson     (aka dingo in boulder)     dean@vexcel.com
==============================================================================
From: howard.smith@spacebbs.com (Howard Smith) 
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: Electric Vehicle-Question
Date: 27 Jan 93 12:47:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: SPACE BBS - Menlo Park, CA - 10 Lines + 4gB - 415-323-4193
Reply-To: howard.smith@spacebbs.com (Howard Smith) 

RPR>If you know of anyone who has built an electric vehicle or if you
RPR>have can you send me your address so I can ask a few questions?

RPR>Typical questions include:

RPR>1.      How many batteries were used and what exact type where they?
RPR>2.      Did you use the exact same transmission already in the car
RPR>        (This is for a gas powered car conversion)
RPR>        (We are converting an 81 Rabbit)

Electro Automotive
POB 1113-HP
Felton, CA 95018-1113

sells a not inexpensive, California State approved kit to convert
Rabbits.

To quote their ad in Home Power magazine,

For free info, send SASE.
For 64 page illustrated installation instructions plus highly-acclaimed
manual "Convert It" & parts catalog, send $45.00 + $4.00 postage

Howard Smith

American Hydrogen Association BBS (415)494-3116
1200-14,400 baud (V.32bis V.42bis)  8N1  24 hrs
Hydrogen Energy -  Prosperity without Pollution

---
 . SLMR 2.1a . Press any key to continue or any other key to quit
                                          
----
SPACE BBS - Menlo Park, CA - 10 Lines - BoardWatch Top Ten BBS
415-323-4193 (v.32bis) - 4gB (50,000 files) + Wx, UPI News, etc.
From: john.holmgren@spacebbs.com (John Holmgren) 
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: Re: Greenpeace press rele
Date: 22 Jan 93 13:11:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: SPACE BBS - Menlo Park, CA - 10 Lines + 4gB - 415-323-4193
Reply-To: john.holmgren@spacebbs.com (John Holmgren) 

JW>On the news last night:  Greenpeace releases a commissioned report (fr
JW>someone in the U.S.) demonstrating that the chances of a meltdown acci
JW>in a CANDU reactor are 1 in 17, which they point out are better odds t
JW>the chance of throwing snake eyes with dice.
JW>
JW>Biggest understatement (paraphrased):  "These numbers don't agree with
JW>(Ontario Hydro spokesman)
JW>
JW>Second biggest understatement (paraphrased):  "Making this kind of sta
JW>borders on the irresponsible."  (Ontario Hydro spokesman)

  Hey, I'll accept that: probably, the GP numbers are incorrect or 
exaggerated. Maybe you even know what the correct odds are.
  I think the REAL problem (and maybe this is only MY problem) is that the 
noxious deadly material is brought together and concentrated from all over 
the world, and then it produces useful energy which is disbursed, and then 
there is a horrendous residue of deadly stuff left over. Seems to me that 
this is the wrong way 'round. Seems to me we're just serving the old god 
of the 19th century: spend anything on centralized capital costs to save 
money on marginal costs. The ugly side-effect is the Love Canal or 
Hanford or Chernobyl phenomena, which brings home the point of the 
deadliness of this stuff, AND how easily safety precautions are ignored by 
executives and bureaucrats under pressure.
   Thus, it seems to me that distributed production of energy makes more 
sense. Which is one of the reasons I like Solar power and fuel alcohol.


---
 . WinQwk 2.0 a#0 . Unregistered Evaluation Copy
                                                                                                                
----
SPACE BBS - Menlo Park, CA - 10 Lines - BoardWatch Top Ten BBS
415-323-4193 (v.32bis) - 4gB (50,000 files) + Wx, UPI News, etc.
Newsgroups: sci.energy,talk.environment
From: constant@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Tino)
Subject: Re: NEWS: World Bank Recommends Halt of Czech N-Plant Construction
Keywords: environment nuclear press
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 20:05:22 GMT

In article <Greenpeace.24Jan1993.2204@naughty-peahen> Greenpeace via Jym Dyer <jym@mica.berkeley.edu> writes:
>[Greenpeace Press Release from Greenbase -- Redistribute Freely]

No thanks.

>"Even the World Bank talks in concrete terms", said Greenpeace
>nuclear campaigner Gabi Wiener. "By continuing their nuclear
>program, Eastern Europe and especially Czechia will be running
>into an environmental and economical dead-end road. Safety and
>economical reasons permit only one conclusion: Stop nuclear
>energy - now!"

Are you talking about just the poor eastern design or ALL power plants? 

Looks like they're going to go fossil over nuclear. Better for the 
environment, huh?

Tino
-- 
     "Here are the young men, the weight on their shoulders..." - J.D.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
             Purdue University School of Nuclear Engineering
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: sci.energy
From: dean@vexcel.com (Dean Alaska)
Subject: Re: Air Pollution in Denver and Federal Air Qual Regs (was RE:
Organization: VEXCEL Corporation, Boulder CO
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 22:59:48 GMT

>In article <51905@seismo.CSS.GOV>, stead@skadi.CSS.GOV (Richard Stead) writes:
>|> 
>|> Denver has the second smogiest air in the nation behind LA.  I don't
>|> know the factors contributing to that, however.  I've never been to Denver.
>|> (People have this clean image of Colorado, but Denver is smogier than
>|> Pittsburg, NYC, DC, etc.)
>|> 
>|>
The composition of smog here is much different than in LA.  Unlike in LA,
the smog season in Denver is the winter.  The smog is heavily composed
of particulates from the gravel used on the streets, believe it or not.
Inversion layers are also more common in the winter.
Smog alerts are based on visibility measurements rather than on 
measurements of individual pollutants.  This is why wood stoves are
a major contributor.  Driving is discouraged during alerts so that
less gravel will get kicked up. 
-- 
==============================================================================
	Dean Myerson     (aka dingo in boulder)     dean@vexcel.com
==============================================================================
From: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU (Carl J Lydick)
Newsgroups: sci.energy
Subject: Re: Why not 120 VDC ?  Why invert?
Date: 27 Jan 1993 15:07:51 GMT
Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera
Distribution: world
Reply-To: carl@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU
NNTP-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu

In article <C1IpIq.DFF@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, amirza@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Anmar Caves) writes:
>>If you use a 12 volt system you can start out with one set of batteries
=>and add capacity in parallel.  If you are on 120 volts dc you have 10
=>times the number of cells.  The initial cost for a 120 volt system will be
=>much higher. 
=
=In addition, there will be ten times the number of cells in series.

But the same total number of cells in your storage system.

=Any one cell failure can ruin a bank.

The same is true if the cells are connected in parallel:  One shorted cell can
load the rest enough to damage them.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CARL@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL

Disclaimer:  Hey, I understand VAXen and VMS.  That's what I get paid for.  My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below).  So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it.  If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
Newsgroups: sci.energy