From: rtsumn01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu
Subject: Re: Purpose of alt.evil -- What is evil?
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 05:00:30 GMT
Organization: University of Louisville
Followup-To: alt.evil

In article <1992Dec14.091049.2044@mtu.edu>, mrmach@walker2.hu.mtu.edu (MARK ROMAN MACH) writes:
>     Does any serious discussions about evil ever go on here?  My wife
> had an interesting class (the Nature of Evil) that I sat in on a couple
> of sessions of, and thought it was really interesting.

No, serious discussions about evil rarely go on here, and if one starts,
we all chase it out :)  Seriously, how often do serious discussions go
on in *most* of the alt. hierarchy? But a class on Evil would be great.
Did they have labs?
 
>     I was hoping to see some similar discussions on here, but so far
> I've seen more levity than genuine interest in evil.  Perhaps I can
> throw out a couple of serious questions and see what kind of response
> there is.
> 
>     Antichrist:
> 
>         What is it that makes an indian man who burns his wife to death
>         evil?

Because it's fun.

I grew up in a Xian society. I learned that everything that is fun is
forbidden by religion, therefore evil. Should I find an activity 
enjoyable, even to think about, it must be evil (even to think about 
it--thought is forbidden in the New Testament).

Now one might argue, that I shouldn't be bound by the values of a silly
backwards religion, but that I should learn to rise above Xianity and 
thus not empower it. To which I respond that "evil" is a word developed
by Xian cultures, and used by Xian cultures, therefore defined by Xian 
cultures. So I find that to define evil in Xian terms is legitimate. 
Besides, I am living in one of said Xian cultures, which has a large 
impact on the world in general, so I think that Xianity is an important
factor in my world.
 
>         Do you know anything of the indian culture that would imply any
>         evil in this act by those standards?

Frankly I don't know anything about Indian standards of good and evil, 
and very little about their culture at all. But I define the act as evil
by my standards as described above. I also have another standard of 
right and wrong by which that act is very reprehensible indeed.

>         Or did you just feel it
>         was evil by your standards?

By standard A. above, it's an evil act. This is the standard by which I
define myself as evil.

Standard B. isn't really a standard of evil per se. It's a set of things
that disgust me as a person, which I cannot imagine doing. This includes
acts of turning against your own group. Your family, your friends, 
whatever. It's not "evil." I don't believe in absolutes, which the term 
implies. But it is something that offends me. By this standard, someone 
truly evil would be Stalin (was it Stalin? or Lenin?). The fellow who 
had 10 million Russians offed. Because they were *his*own*people*.

Oh, and I never use Standard B. when saying "evil" so you'll know what
I'm saying in the responses below.
 
I'll go ahead and address the questions that you didn't direct at me...

>     Mr. Holtsinger: 
> 
>         Why is being evil such a desirable trait?

Because it's fun :)  Because it draws into question all the values of
this rotten culture that should be overthrown. Because is universal
screwing, or killing someone who is your enemy, really wrong? IS IT?
No, it's just evil. But it's also normal.

Evil is natural.

Natural things are evil.
 
>         What is it that makes the ability to remove a flies wings a
>         standard of evil?  Is this universally accepted as evil in all
>         cultures?

It's disgusting and petty, and so is evil in this society (yes, I have
a hangup on society when we're talking about social things). Consider
the medieval version of Satan. Total evil, according to them. And he
was so low I'm sure he'd be *delighted* to tear wings off flies.

I don't know if it's universally evil. I am hardly an expert 
anthropologist.
 
>     DOG BASEBALL!!!:  (Is that Mr. Baseball!!!, or can I call you Dog?  :)
> 
>         What is an act that is done for nothing else but evil gain?  What
>         is evil gain?

I'd say "evil gain" is selfishness. Something done for your own personal
pleasure, and nothing but.
 
>     Fox (Shadoxx?):
> 
>         >if you consider yourself truly evil...........
>         >out of all the beings in the multiverse
>         >the most important should be YOU!!!!
>         >don't ask me why.
> 
>         Why?  :)

Because self-centeredness is an evil. A great one. It's an act of rejecting
the importance of society in favor of yourself.

We now understand that Zaphod Beeblebrox is the most evil person in the
universe...
 
>     All:
> 
>         Is there a such thing as evil?

There's no absolute evil.

There is cultural evil--that which is defined as extremely undesireable 
by a culture.
 
>         What determines if something is evil?

Whoever defined it in the first place.
 
>         Is evil determined by the values of each culture?  Or is there
>         some universal law (being?) that determines what is evil and
>         what is not (such that when something is evil in one place and
>         time, it is evil in all other places and times)?

If a person believes in their cultural evil, then they can rightly apply
it to all times and places. The definition of that cultural evil is such 
that one who believes in it *must* apply it universally. But that 
doesn't make the act in question truly (absolutely) evil.
 
>         Would an evil person consider themself evil?

Depends.

Most people seen as evil by others would consider themselves good, and 
doing right actions.

A few people call themselves evil to make a point. Myself, for example.
The rest of this newsgroup.

The simple act of calling oneself "evil" is an evil. It's *wrong*,
abnormal, outcast, forbidden.
 
>         Can evil exist without God?  (Is evil religiously based?)

I think someone without a religion would not talk about "evil," but they
can still set up standards of right and wrong (aren't the secular 
humanists trying this?).
 
>         Is anything morally or ethically repulsive considered evil?

I can't think of anything that is morally repulsive but not evil. I
have, however, seen some Xians argue that sin does not equal evil. I.e.,
not accepting Jesus into your heart is sinful but not evil. I'd say
that non-acceptance is an evil act in Xianity, but maybe I'm wrong.

One more thought:

I would say that there is not conflict between evil and love. On the
contrary, I feel that if you know *true* love, then you must be evil.

--The Antichrist