HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jns@elea.umd.edu (J. N. Shaumeyer)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: the media are the massage
Date: 25 Dec 92 06:29:28 GMT
Organization: Militant Homosexual Lobby, Gay Lifestyles, Inc.


Mara Chibnik (mara@panix.com), in
a fit of piquant, wrote:
 
> The medium (sorry about this) provides its own massage.

Well, lucky it [or they].  But I wouldn't be
sorry about it--a good massage is usually a
welcome thing, although in general I'd prefer
a firm one to a medium.  Or several firm ones
to a media, for that matter.  This is one case
though where it's perfectly appropriate to
kill the masseur for bearing bad massages.

Or masseuse.  Now, I'm generally one for genderless
nouns, &c. [you *do* know why it's written like
that, yes?], although I have trouble with the loss
of number information in 'their' and would like to
see nice, new, genderless third-person pronoun, but
there are a couple of very nice words I'd like to
see stay around, although they could be redefined
for all I care--I just like their sound.  One
is 'masseuse'.

The other is 'aviatrix'.  Such a delicious word.
There's [not his!] a rather silly mystery novel
by Michael Innes [one of my favorite authors in
the genre, and I'll admit that saying this one's
silly is redundant] which seemed to be perpetrated
entirely as an excuse to use the word 'aviatrix'.
[If I could remember the title, I'd tell you.]

Rather in the same way that I thought Anthony
Burgess wrote _Earthly Powers_ simply as an
excuse to use the word 'quincunx'.

But I digress.

> And then there are the folks who wait until they know it's safe, and
> then talk about the other posters.  This article will have expired
> at Greg's site long before he gets back.  Hah.

This bit I leave in just to make Greg wonder what
he missed when the article expired.

--jns
From: nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: How did you find soc.motss?
Date: 22 Dec 92 10:46:05 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Dec22.104605.19402
Reply-To: nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR

In article <1992Dec22.104217.18245@reed.edu> nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar) goofs:
>Nelson, whose never even seen a front pannel switch, or for that
>matter a card reader.

Nelson, who's evidently never seen a book on proper English grammar,
but is also aware that for some reason cancel messages propagate
slower than the messages they are cancelling

ObMotss: I just got a nice book for Christmas, "The Homoerotic Image:
Male images from Durieu/Delacroix to Mapplethorpe". I have some
complaints - there's too much pomo criticism and not enough naked
flesh - but it's a good little historical collection of male
homoerotic photography.
                __
nelson@reed.edu \/                                            Love under will
From: smithw@col.hp.com (Walter Smith)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: EE statements (was: Re: Attention Skiers Boycotting Colorado)
Date: 30 Dec 1992 23:12:26 GMT
Organization: Colorado Springs IT Center
NNTP-Posting-Host: fajita19.cs.itc.hp.com

dauber@tattoo.mti.sgi.com (Jeff Dauber) writes:
> Let's see... I know of many cases at San Francisco General Hospital where
> it has been violated.  I know of cases at HP and IBM where people are having
> problems.  I can come up with a lot of places where people had to invoke
> the policy.  It happens all the time.
> 
> Why would this surprise you?

Because I've never seen it, my wife (who works in HR) has never seen 
it, and I've never heard about any.  Can you give details?  I don't want 
to put you out or fill up your time, but I would be curious to see 
this in action, since it's something I've never seen before.  Especially 
the hospital and HP, since I work there....IBM, well, they're having 
enough problems...;-)

Walter
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: penis size (was Re: Muffin on Parade)
Date: 1 Jan 93 06:07:18 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1993Jan1.060718.20505
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <55440007@hpscit.sc.hp.com> jprigeon@hpscit.sc.hp.com (John Prigeon) writes:
>I've also been privy to gay male conversations 
>where the same kind of degradation was occuring, and I found it just as
>distasteful.

It's hardly degrading if both parties are degrading each other. :-)
That is, there seem to be to be a _mutuality_ inherent in gay men
admiring each other without that whole male-female dialectic which
gives rise to and reflects power imbalances.  Which is not to say
that gay men can't be awfully boorish.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: twpierce@unix.amherst.edu (Tim Pierce)
Subject: Re: Christmas decoration spotted
Organization: Elitist Usenet Administrators, Turkey Division
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 07:44:08 GMT

In article <BzMCn7.Dpq@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> albrigh@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas g albright) writes:

>We, here at IU, haven't been getting GAYNET for several months now, ever
>since they moved the server to gallifrey.kent.edu; I've written repeatedly
>to the maintainer and have had no response, so I've given up.

John wrote me a little while ago, since I'd written a couple of times
to him, to say that he's working on getting the feed to
bit.listserv.gaynet reestablished.

-- 
____ Tim Pierce                / 
\  / twpierce@unix.amherst.edu /               Rocks say goodbye.
 \/ (BITnet: TWPIERCE@AMHERST) /
From: rhiann@carson.u.washington.edu (Sandy --not Sandra)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Dworkin (was Re: Liberty)
Date: 29 Dec 1992 03:55:39 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
NNTP-Posting-Host: carson.u.washington.edu

In article <1992Dec26.171035.12605@news.acns.nwu.edu> Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde) writes:
>
>I would suggest that most of Andrea Dworkin's useful insights may have
>been expressed by other writers. (I say this without having read
>her recent books.)
>
>For example, Mary Daly's "Gyn/Ecology" covers much the same ground
>as "Woman-Hating", IMHO in a bit more literate fashion.
>
>I would be inclined to recommend a mix of reading Robin Morgan, Susan
>Griffin and Mary Daly, in preference to Andrea Dworkin.

It is pretty much a gay truism these days, that radical groups like
Act-up are *necessary* to make the more mainstream groups look mainstream,
i.e., without ACT-UP, HRCF would look radical to the bible belt.

Without Dworkin, is it possible that women like Daly and Griffin would
be too 'radical' to be seriously listened to?



-- 
 * Sandy *   "I'll believe Avon treated men and women equally the day I see
       	     him kiss a man, tell him he's beautiful when he's angry, kill
     	     him and then gloat over it."    Sue Clerc <sclerc@andy.bgsu.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: pw@panix.com (Paul Wallich)
Subject: Re: soc.motss.*
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 22:29:07 GMT
Organization: Trivializers R Us

In article <1992Dec23.185307.6890@tc.cornell.edu> shore@dinah.tc.cornell.edu (Melinda Shore) writes:
>In article <72279@cup.portal.com> Furr@cup.portal.com (George Dalton Madison) writes:
>>Tch, John.  Such a stereotypically exclusionary list you wrote.
>
>So look who's talking.  If we want to make sure that lesbians
>feel welcome, we'll have to create soc.lesbigay.birkenstock,
>soc.lesbigay.rayon (for the bowling-shirted among us), 
>soc.lesbigay.interlock (for the polo shirt and turtleneck-
>wearing dykes), soc.lesbigay.handknit (for the earth mothers,
>although one might anticipate some overlap with soc.lesbigay.
>birkenstock), and so on.  

All this inclusionary list stuff is imo just fragmenting the
motss community and serving as an incitement to reckless
crossposting (ulp).

I'd like to propose a much simpler division:

soc.lesbigay.us
soc.lesbigay.them

paul    (well, _maybe_ motss.info....)
From: Furr@cup.portal.com (George Dalton Madison)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Congratulating (het) parents on their new baby
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 92 07:36:37 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)
  <1ha9p7INNm7q@fido.asd.sgi.com> <7@bbx.basis.com>

Scott Amspoker writes:
>Those people are in serious need of a reality check.

But Scott -- "reality checks" are just what Religion was created
to help people *AVOID* *PAYING*!  ;-)

Think about it -- all the time, the money, the *LIVES* that have
been utterly and completely *WASTED* because humanity can't
accept the simple fact that we're born, we live and WE *DIE*.

While some of the "faithful" are capable of it, I don't think
that many people in any Xtian/Jewish/Islam type religion's
heirarchy is capable of cashing a reality check.

 
() If someone asks you 'Do you believe?' and you do not
() answer `In what?' then you have written a blank check on
() your brain, and it shall surely come back marked
() `insufficient funds'
()      -- Orson Scott Card
-----
[> George D. Madison | NBCS: B8f+t+w-e+s+k+a!cv | Just say NO to razors! <]
[> It's a BEAR thing -- you wouldn't understand. <|> furr@cup.portal.com <]
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 22:37:18 EST
From: <MEH124@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Why not cure homosexuality?

Regarding a previous post that got a good deal of response about the thought
of curing homosexuality, most people on the net seem strongly opposed to whole
idea of a cure.  But what about those people that really struggle with their
sexuality and really don't want to be "homosexual."  Most often they deny their
sexual feelings for religion reasons.  I know-I know the Bible may not be very
clear on the whole issue of homosexuality, as well as the stuff with David...
However, is wrong for some people to side with their gut instinct that
homosexuality is wrong (i.e., err on the safe, conservative side).

What if by some outside chance these conservative Christians are correct in
their beliefs?  Why be so hard on those that want a cure for what they feel
is wrong?  I have seen a number of books that are supposed to help people
overcome, or at least live with, their homosexual feelings.  Many of the books
even claim a 65% success rate (e.g., "Pursuing Sexual Wholeness," by Andrew
Comiskey--a recovered homosexual himself).

Also, just for your info, there are even 12 step groups (like AA) that are call
ed Homosexuals Anonymous that are set up world-wide to help people overcome
their unwanted homosexual feelings.
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Austin, TX joins Colo. Boycott
Date: 30 Dec 92 04:32:39 GMT
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison

In article <C01xz2.KzM@queernet.org> rogerk@queernet.org
(Roger B.A.  Klorese) writes:

>I was gay before I ever had sex.  Were I to declare celibacy, I'd still be
>gay.                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Were that to happen, however, I suspect the very earth would
tremble sufficiently to cause California to slide into the
Pacific at last!  :-)

-- 
[Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin]
[Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson]
[Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888]
[---------> Discrimination, Bigotry, and Hate are not Family Values <---------]
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay)
Subject: Re: soc.motss.*
Organization: People's Front of Judea
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 00:22:50 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.215922.12999@reed.edu> nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar) writes:
>In article <1992Dec21.141228.13237@bsu-ucs> 00daspeakman@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu (David Speakman, Ball State University) writes:
>>WE do need a division. I don't know about your guys, but I do not have
>>the time to wade through literally thousands of postings each day.
>
>It's not literally thousands of postings each day. The most I've ever
>seen posted to motss in one 24 hour period was around 200 messages. I
>think the average is closer to 100. If our newsfeed weren't so flaky
>I'd start collecting statistics.

According to news.lists, the figure is 2117 articles in the
two-week period measured, or ~150 posts/day.

BZZZT! Improper use of the word "literally"; ten yards.
-- 
Andrew Solovay    
                "I know that, in America and under capitalism,
                 I am the freest woman in history."
                                --- Camille Paglia
From: adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: What to do for NEW YEAR'S EVE in Los Angeles?
Date: 2 Jan 1993 19:15:31 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: mizar.usc.edu

In article <rc62b_g@rpi.edu> 
buckmr@marcus.its.rpi.edu (Ron Buckmire) writes:

>Well, I TRIED to post it to the la-motss group but it "bounced". That is the
>address la-motss@pompei.usc.edu returned my mail without propagating it to
>the members of the list.

The list has been awfully quiet lately.  Well, Ron, did 
you find something fab to do?  I spent a quiet evening with
some friends.  Each of us has his own version of "the afghan
I started in 1973", but rather than spend a boring evening
alone, we decided to spend a boring evening together. 

Arne
From: aberson@enh.nist.gov
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Tampa update
Date: 2 Jan 93 22:17:57 GMT
Organization: NIST

The Florida Supreme Court has scheduled oral hearings for May 6 in the
case to overturn the Tampa referendum.  The city of Tampa and its elections
bureau are fighting this on our side.  More when it happens...

(The Florida Supreme Court has a reputation for being very liberal)

Sim Aberson   Ft. Lauderdale, FL   aberson@ocean.dnet.nasa.gov
"Home is where your roof landed" - t-shirt seen in Miami
"We Will Rebuild (tm)" - majority community response to Andrew
"We Will Redecorate" - gay community response to Andrew
From: aberson@enh.nist.gov
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: RE: Attention Skiers Boycotting Colorado
Date: 2 Jan 93 20:30:51 GMT
Organization: NIST

In a previous article, rdonahue@spdcc.com (Bob Donahue) wrote:
->kpm@druhi.ATT.COM (Kevin Malloy (DoD #106)) writes:
->>[Pundit alert]
-> 
->>If this referendum had been held four years ago, it probably would have
->>passed by 20 points.  Had they tried here four years from now, it would
->>have gone down by a wide margin.  Why do I think this?  In Denver, in
->>May, 1991, a repeal of "sexual orientation" in Denver's human rights
->>law was defeated 45-55% (roughly 45,000 to 55,000 votes).  In 1992,
->>Denver voted No on 2 40-60% (roughly 81,000 to 121,000 votes).  A
->>tremendous gain for us.  In Ft. Collins, a 1989 referendum to enact
->>lesbigay rights was defeated 58-42%.  This year, Ft. Collins narrowly
->>voted No on 2.
-> 
->	Yes - I thin it's miportant that people not lose sight
->of this --- if for nothing else it means that any future repeal
->of 2 is likely to go more in our favor --- esp. I hope that now
->people who realize they were conned into a "wrong" vote won't make
->the mistake again and people who were oblivious to our entrenchment
->in the mainstream community feel the effects of our dissatisfaction.

The Miami Herald reported an interesting statistic in yesterday's paper
on children of LGB* people.  The American Bar Association (you know,
that queer organization which *has* to skew statistics) estimates that
there are between 6 and 14 million children of LGB parents in the nation
today.  Most are from traditional opposite sex marriages (I almost said
heterosexual), but the new trend is for LGB people to choose to have
children.  With an army of 6-14 million loving children coming of age,
how can one not be optimistic?

Sim Aberson   Ft. Lauderdale, FL   aberson@ocean.dnet.nasa.gov
"Home is where your roof landed" - t-shirt seen in Miami
"We Will Rebuild (tm)" - majority community response to Andrew
"We Will Redecorate" - gay community response to Andrew
From: adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: penis size (was Re: Muffin on Parade)
Date: 31 Dec 1992 18:27:06 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: mizar.usc.edu

In article <76024@apple.apple.COM> 
mattm@Apple.COM (Matthew Melmon) writes:

> (and *really* - has anyone ever known a bubble-butted blonde
> beach boy to be *worth* taking seriously?  I mean, *really*?)

Yes.  My very first boyfriend (we were 15), was a delicious
green-eyed bubble-butted blond beach boy who very definitely
was worth taking seriously.  He was literary (he and a friend 
were busy collaborating on a "The Love Machine" style novel 
entitled "He Whore" when we met), he was musical, he knew 
about movies and theater and culture and art, he spoke several
languages (English, of course, and he was studying Spanish 
and French in school, but he had also picked up some Yiddish
from his mother), and he enjoyed fine dining.  Our first date
was on a rainy December night 22 years (eeek!) ago.  I haven't
seen him in about 8 years, but a friend of mine who's still
in contact with him says that the hair and body are gone, but
he still has those green eyes.

Arne

Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Subject: Re: Dworkin (was Re: Liberty)
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 92 00:25:32 GMT


In article <1hqcccINN8e8@mizar.usc.edu>
adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (Arne Adolphson) writes:

>In article <1992Dec29.141645.11478@tc.cornell.edu> 
>shore@dinah.tc.cornell.edu (Melinda Shore) writes:

>>I think that what we're really seeing is that while misogyny
>>is a problem that should be addressed in due time but isn't
>>something to get overly exercised about, man-hating is a
>>heinous crime of major proportions that must be decried
>>loudly and publicly whenever we see even a hint of it.

>Above and beyond what any individual man might think about
>women, misogyny is systemic.  Man-hating is not.

I think the first claim is very solid.  I don't dispute the
second claim, but I'm less persuaded of its relevance.

>In any case, if any man were to write about women -- all
>women, regardless of their political affiliations,
>ethnicities, or sexualities -- using rhetoric even slightly
>like that employed by Andrea Dworkin in her screeds against
>men, he would be dismissed by *everyone* as a crank or
>worse.

Your contention is somewhat shakey, I think.  Very
considerable numbers of woman-hating remarks do get
published, and it seems to me the writers are quite often
*not* roundly denounced as idiots and fools by the general
population.  While this too is not very demonstrable, there
clearly is a much smaller tendency to hold over-zealous
woman-haters accountable (their numbers are massive) than to
hold over-zealous man-haters (their numbers are much
smaller) accountable.

<> If you see someone standing on top of a mountain, it isn't
<> because they fell up there.
-- 
[Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin]
[Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson]
[Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888]
[---------> Discrimination, Bigotry, and Hate are not Family Values <---------]
From: nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Diet differences with your partner?
Date: 31 Dec 92 06:11:07 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Dec31.061107.19924
Reply-To: nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR

In article <184735@pyramid.pyramid.com> sylvan@pyramid.COM (Sylvan Ruud) writes:
>How many GLBO folks *are* vegetarians out there?

there are 1,354,223 in America. I'm one of them.

>I am a vegetarian, and find it difficult to deal with a lover who is not.
>How have you dealt with this? It seems like more and more folks are
>moving towards vegetarianism, but it is just one more thing that
>makes it difficult to find that "special partner".

I've never tried living with a lover, vegetarian or not, so I haven't
experienced problems like keeping meat in the fridge, or meat grease
in the skillet, etc.

But I have been in relationships with both vegetarians and non
vegetarians. So far, all of the non-veggies I've spent much time with
have been extremely nice about what we order when we eat, etc. I
prefer it when the people I'm dining with eat vegetarian also. It
makes things less awkward. But I hardly expect it: sometimes the meat
dishes really do look better.

Sensitivity is what counts. If you want to impress your vegetarian
date, don't suggest s/he just pick the pepperoni off the pizza. Don't
go to a place where you share the food (say, Chinese), order meat
dishes, and then discover that the vegetarian food is better and eat
it all up. And don't try to kiss right after eating a juicy steak, ok?

ObVisitingMotherForChristmas: mom was making Christmas dinner, and she
was making beef tender. She suggested that I just go to a deli, buy
some preprepared dish, and heat it in the microwave for dinner.
                __
nelson@reed.edu \/     What in this room is alive and what doesn't have life?
From: arne@spdcc.com (Arne Adolphson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Changing standards of female beauty (was Re: Ageism)
Date: 24 Dec 92 05:24:15 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1992Dec24.052415.7292
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <mattm-231292173402@mcmelmon.apple.com> 
mattm@apple.com (Matthew Melmon) writes:
>You see the problem, DLM?  Even when I *say* "half humorous" - it
>is not readily apparent to even the better educated twits that
>what follows is not necessarily to be taken at face value.

Well, yes, you *say* "half humorous", but you were joking
about the wrong decades.

>I think, however, that a casual jaunt through Vogue, et. al. during
>the period in question would reveal a strong androgynist bent.

Well, I have indeed taken casual jaunts through Vogue, et. al.
during the period in question, and what I've seen are incredible
*feminine* superstar models like Lisa Fonssagrives.  Incredible
Amazon types.  Womanly women like Carmen.  Then of course there
were the bizarre types, like Dovima, but to call her "androgynous"
is quite wrong.

>What does an androgynous woman look like?  No chest, little 
>variation from chest to waist to hips.  Short, simple hairstyle.
>And, of course, no body fur.

Why don't you flip open some issues of Bazaar from the golden
years when Carmel Snow was its editor and Alexey Brodovitch
was its art director?

>A 13 year old boy.

I've never seen a 13 year old boy who looked like Suzy Parker.
Where do *you* see them?

Arne
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: jenk@microsoft.com (Jen Kilmer)
Subject: Re: The phrase "gay rights"
Date: 28 Dec 92 09:18:14 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

In article <18486@borg.cs.unc.edu> harris@gallium.cs.unc.edu (Trey Harris) writes:
>In article <1h06ibINNm5i@plts.uucp> tal@plts.uucp (Tom Limoncelli) writes:
>>I've done some political work, and I've found that the phrase "gay
>>rights laws" scares many people.  However, when your substitute the
>>phrase, "anti-discrimination laws for gays"  [...]

I posted a story about my coming out to a coworker. One of the things
I said about the coworker was that he's against "equal rights for gays".

Later I showed the post to the coworker, and he corrected me - he's NOT
against "equal rights for gays", he says. So I ask "Do you think gay 
couples should be able to marry?  Should gay couples be able to adopt 
children?" He answered, "Those are special rights, not equal rights."

-jen


Newsgroups: soc.motss