HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Peter Purgathofer <purgi@iguwnext.tuwien.ac.at>
Subject: Re: Macs are the best!
X-Xxmessage-Id: <A6ECA778B601B604@berlin.tuwien.ac.at>
X-Xxdate: Mon, 28 Sep 92 12: 13:44 GMT
Organization: Institute for Assessment and Design of Technology
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d10
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 10:12:49 GMT

>Not. A good GUI will beat every CLI. Give me an example of an
>application, that should have a CLI, because GUI isnt good.

....

In article <1992Sep25.161641.13802@ra.msstate.edu> Skip Sauls,
skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu writes:
>A VT100 emulator.  :-)

:) 
Ok, I laughed about this?

In article <Bv5Btr.2IK@news.cso.uiuc.edu> Steven Arthur Sivier,
sasg0244@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu writes:
>     grep foobar *.c

Look at Nisus. It can do a lot of what grep can do, it can even do more
than grep can do, and you will always know what it does. 

Eg. Instead of giving wildcards for selecting the valid files, which only
works, if there is a wildmark for all the files you want to select, you
select the files in a somewhat standard custom file window. 

AND: You cannot only find, but also find and replace beyond the
boundaries of one file. (show me that unix tool)

AND its not only an editor, but also an wonderful text processor.

AND you can easily define macros (very powerful ideed, but then its not
easy anymore)

In article <UelLkH200VAtI9N5RP@andrew.cmu.edu> Faisal Nameer Jawdat,
fj05+@andrew.cmu.edu writes:
>emacs :-)

:P

>data manipulation

Well, data manipulation. This is (for me) a little too general a problem
to give you examples. But imagine an application, where you can lay path
between iconic representation of data sets and define operations of that
path, much like you do in simulation packages like Stella. Doesnt look
that like paradise for you?

Dont tell me, its not there yet. I didn't say the mac has every possible
software. I said, GUIs (well, what I mean is the principle of direct
manipulation) is far superiour to CLI. 
:)

Peter
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.mac.system
From: peter@NeoSoft.com (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: Mac & IBM raw info
Organization: NeoSoft Communications Services -- (713) 684-5900
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1992 12:20:21 GMT

Chronologically:

8088
8086
68000
68008
80186
68010
80286
68020
80386
68030
80486
68040
80586, 68060

In terms of programming model:

8088, 8086, 80186, 80286	6809
80386				68000

In terms of performance:

8088, 8086, 80186		6809
80286				68000
80386				68030
80486				68040

In terms of addressible memory:

8088, 8086, 80186		between 6809 and 68000
80286				68000
80386				68020

In terms of memory protection:

8088, 8086, 80186		68000 + 68551
80286				68010 + either MMU
80386				68020 + MMU or 68030

In terms of floating point:

80286 + 80287			68000 + 68881
80386 + 80387			68020 + 68881
80486				68040

See, you can't draw any simple lines. The whole design of the 8086 is
different from any other modern CPU.
-- 
Peter da Silva.  <peter@sugar.neosoft.com>.
 `-_-'   "Heeft u vandaag al uw wolf geknuffeld?"
  'U`
From: Dale_Adams@gateway.qm.apple.com (Dale Adams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Macintosh emulation on Amiga
Date: 28 Sep 92 19:24:18 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc.

In article <Bv786v.9q5@news.cso.uiuc.edu> jmo50888@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu 
(Josephine M. Otter) writes:
> No.  An Amiga >EMULATING< a mac IIci in black and white is 10% faster 
than a
> mac IIci running in color.

What a coincidence.   A IIci running in black and white is faster than a 
IIci running in color.  (About 20 to 30% faster, at least if you use the 
built-in video at 8 bits/pixel.)

- Dale Adams
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: jbailey@world.std.com (james d bailey)
Subject: Re: 7.1 vs. OS/2 and Windows NT
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 01:50:37 GMT

dvan@spumco.cts.com (David Vandeven) writes:

[stuff deleted]
>MPW's file management is inadequate.  And as I've stated before,
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>there are just 
>some things that a CLI shell is better at.  An ideal system has both CLI and
>GUI shells available as part of the standard OS package. 

In what way is MPW's file management inadequate?  This doesn't make
any sense, MPW has essentially all of UNIX's commands under different
names.  What do you need that it doesn't have?

[more stuff deleted]
> 
> David Vandeven    ********************************************************
>Systems Progammer  *   "I don't believe in Pinochle, I don't believe I'll *
>    Deadhead       * try: I do believe in Captain Crunch, for I am the    *
>    Cyberpunk      * Frizzle Fry!"  (dvan@spumco.cts.com)      *PRIMUS!*  *
>Zen Agnostic Guru  ********************************************************
From: ckd@eff.org (Christopher Davis)
Subject: Re: CUA. Yuck.
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation Tech Central
	<1aot96INNch@matt.ksu.ksu.edu> <Bvn5L8.8t7@rice.edu>
	<1apgi4INN4dg@matt.ksu.ksu.edu> <92279.175717ASI509@DJUKFA11.BITNET>
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1992 21:03:40 GMT

ASI509> == ASI509  <ASI509@DJUKFA11.BITNET> 

 ASI509> While you can replace a 386sx with a IIsi it would be a bit
 ASI509> difficult to replace a 3090 with a Quadra.

This is very true.  After all, if you did that, you'd have noplace to
put the 10-ton air conditioning system, or the computer room's halon
fire suppression system, or the "Very Big Red Switch".

--
Christopher K. Davis      |       NET.INSIGHTS INTO ARTISTIC CRITICISM:
<ckd@eff.org>   EFF #14   | ``[Y]ou don't cure bad art by locking it all up
System Administrator, EFF | in one museum, you cure it by throwing tomatoes
+1 617 864 0665  [CKD1]   | at bad artists.'' --Barry Shein <bzs@world.std.com>
From: tsirbasc@ERE.UMontreal.CA (Tsirbas Christos)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Possible solution to Apple's charging for Sys. Soft upgrades
Date: 27 Sep 92 20:20:24 GMT
Organization: Universite de Montreal

Dariusz Bolski writes: (concerning system disks)

I am not sure if one is entitled to use backup if one does not posess
original anymore. Wouldn't it be considered a software piracy?


Well, Dariusz, one would not be entitled to use the backups if one
transferred the license for the use of the software to another, but
if one simply erased the original diskettes, without selling them or
without having lost the right to use the software, then this would
not be considered piracy.

Remember, when one upgrades system soft-ware, either by paying an
upgrade fee, or by getting a software patch via FTP or through a
dealer, one is not purchasing a new programme, but rather, exercising
the rights that come out of the ownership of the licence agreement of
said software, which cover both the older and the newer versions of the
software.

Chris in Montreal
From: sammy@anagld.analytics.com (Sam Blackburn)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: IBM SUCKS!
Date: 30 Sep 92 00:23:49 GMT
Organization: Computer Sciences Corporation - Systems Engineering Division

tomster@bigwpi.WPI.EDU (Thomas Richard Dibble) writes:

>I beg to differ.  Have you bought and/or maintained a pc built in the last
>year or so, Mr. Apple Spokeman?  It is quite difficult to get a machine which
>will break on you.  Open up a brand new machine -- even a 286 -- and compare
>it to a standard computer of three years ago.  Note the difference in
>structural as well as component integrity.

Well, you can't put true blue IBM PS/2's in this category.  My company bought
dozens of them and we've had nothing but problems with them.  They didn't 
want to go with "clones" because they couldn't get maintenance contracts with
clones.  The problem is that you NEED a maintenance contract with IBM.


                                                               o
Sam Blackburn                                                    \
Internet:   sammy@sed.csc.com                                  \O/
Compuserve: 76300,326                     ||====================|====||
GEnie:      SAMMY                         ||-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-/\+-+-||
                                          ||===================\=\===||
                                          ||                         ||
                                          || Kill or be killed.      ||
From: tlt38517@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Terry Thiel)
Subject: Re: 7.1 vs. OS/2 and Windows NT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 03:15:24 GMT

spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu (Stefano Pagiola) writes:
>David Vandeven writes
>> Apple better get on the ball.  System 7.1 lacks some of the basic 
>> features that define a REAL operating system.  Where is Memory
>> protection?  A system level scripting language that isn't third
>> party?  Preemptive multitasking?  Command-line shells?  All
>> these are things that Apple has been promising us for years.
>> OS/2 and Windows NT have these features in addition to
>> workable GUIs.
>NeXT has all these features and an _excellent_ GUI.
>Stefano Pagiola
>Food Research Institute, Stanford University
>spagiola@frinext.stanford.edu (NeXTMail encouraged)
Very true.  If I had the $$ I would buy a NeXT.  Unfortunately it's not
cost effective as a student who needs a number of Mac applications and cannot
afford to take a chance on the NeXT.
-Terry
From: strobl@gmd.de (Wolfgang Strobl)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why Macs are better (and the others aren't)
Date: 29 Sep 92 09:25:12 GMT
Organization: GMD, Sankt Augustin, Germany

In <6065.2ac71b5b@hayes.com> bcoleman@hayes.com (Bill Coleman) writes:

>In article <strobl.717624432@gmd.de>, strobl@gmd.de (Wolfgang Strobl) writes:
>> Probably nothing, because the Mac is a closed system.

>FOUL!

>15 yard penalty! First down!

>--

>This statement has been made repeatedly by non-Macintosh types. It is false.
>Please don't repeat it. The Mac has been open in every respect from the
>hardware to the software since 1987. 

I'll believe that when I can run a shrinkwrapped copy of the Macintosh
OS I bought in the small computer shop around the corner for 90$,
on the hardware of *my* choice.

>In the MS OS world, however, things aren't so rosey. Indeed, wasn't there
>some scuttlebutt about MS using undocumented calls in their Windows 
>applications that weren't available to other developers?

Well, doesn't Apple do similar things? I.e. force others to follow
their rules, but bend them themselves? Anyway, I fail to understand
why that should make MS-Windows a closed system. It may give Microsofts
application division an unfair advantage and make the life for other
developers a bit harder. Generally, the programming interface has 
been quite stable and well documented during the  years. But the
real point is: using that programming interface (and user interface)
forces me to buy the OS from Microsoft, but it doesn't force me
(and the users of my programs) to buy the hardware from them, too.

(I'm not really sure whether I'm forced to by the OS from Microsoft -
I know about at least one company which offers a compatible 
implementation of that interface, without being sued by MS.)

>Talk about a closed system....

Well, it works the other way around, too. When I buy a closed system
like the Macintosh, I'm not only forced to buy and use that hardware,
I'm forced to use Apples system software, too. If I'm using a PC clone
from Dell or HP or IBM (:-), I can use Windows, but if I suddenly
decide to become an Unix fan, I have a handfull of different 
systems to select one from, with variing quality and resource
consumption (and price, of course). On the Macs side, it isn't my
choice, but Apples choice what they decide to support on their
machine. 

Wolfgang Strobl
#include <std.disclaimer.hpp>
From: mike_steiner@qm.claris.com (Mike Steiner)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why Macs are better (and the others aren't) (long)
Date: 6 Oct 92 20:48:27 GMT
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy

In article <TOMSTER.92Sep30202903@banzai.WPI.EDU>, tomster@banzai.WPI.EDU
(Thomas Richard Dibble) wrote:
> 
> In article <1a8i5gINNfvm@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> cd248@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Richard Sherman) writes:

>    I have another question for you:
> 
>    Can your IBM 3.5 drives tell the difference between 720K and 1.4 meg disks and
>    format them accordingly?
> 
>     NO.  They can't.  If you stick a 720K disk into an HD drive,  the drive will
>    try to format it as a 1.4 meg disk.  YOU have to tell the computer to format it
>    as 720K.
> 
> Wait a minute here.  I seems to me that I have done just what you said can't
> be done.  Let me shell out and see...
> 
> Yep.  Did it.  I'm afraid your assertion that 'those IBM drives are so dumb...'
> is false.  Sounds like maybe a software problem.  I'm running DOS 5.0.
> You see, DOS checks the little hole at the bottom of the disk when it begins a
> format.  Will wonders never cease.

Most PCs don't have the hardware to check that hole.  With most brands of
PC, if you put any blank disk into a HD drive, and format the disk, it will
format it as a HD disk, unless you tell it otherwise.

>    A Macintosh can tell what kind of disk you have in it, and what file system
>    it's from. You don't have to tell it anything.
> 
> Why do I find this hard to believe?

I don't know.  However, with a Mac, when you put in a formatted disk, the
computer knows the capacity of the disk and whether it is Mac MFS, Mac HFS,
ProDOS, or MS/PC DOS.  Admittedly, if you don't have PC Exchange, DOS
Mounter, or AccessPC, you have to do this under Apple File Exchange--but
you don't need any extra hardware.

+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Now that I have a reader that can do .sigs, I can't think of a witty |
|one to put here, so I won't.  All normal disclaimers apply.          |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: tomster@bigwpi.WPI.EDU (Thomas Richard Dibble)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: IBM Funny
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 1 Oct 92 14:22:04
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute, Worcester, MA 01609-2280
	<6057.2ac6dd05@hayes.com> <1992Sep30.011703.4998@NeoSoft.com>
	<terjer-300992093707@majestix.ifi.unit.no>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigwpi.wpi.edu
In-reply-to: terjer@ifi.unit.no's message of Wed, 30 Sep 92 07:46:48 GMT

In article <terjer-300992093707@majestix.ifi.unit.no> terjer@ifi.unit.no (Terje Rydland) writes:


   In article <1992Sep30.011703.4998@NeoSoft.com>, peter@NeoSoft.com (Peter da
   Silva) wrote:
   > 
   > In article <6057.2ac6dd05@hayes.com> bcoleman@hayes.com (Bill Coleman) writes:
   > > In article <1992Sep27.122135.22721@NeoSoft.com>, peter@NeoSoft.com (Peter da Silva) writes:
   > > > The Windows GUI is significantly better designed than Apple's, 
   > 
   > > <GACK!>
   > 
   > > You must be using some unusual, non-standard definition of the word "better".
   > 
   > Um, easier to learn and use. More powerful. More convenient. Less surprising.
   > More easily generalizable. Better feedback.

   Bull! 
   Lets say that you are an "ordinary" user. You are in the program manager
   and you insert a diskette with a program and some data on it. The datafile
   is on the root level, but the application is three layers down in the
   filetree.
   How do you (an ordinary user without much computer experience) even know
   that there is a diskette in the drive? How long does it take before you

Well, let's see.  You look at the drive bay?

   have the
   data displayed on the screen (remember - you are not a power-user?

Well, that depends on what the file is, doesn't it?  If it is one which
Windows knows natively (.wri, .doc, .bmp, etc), seconds.  If not, well,
time to start your application and open the file.  I am assuming that the FM
has no extensions other than the ones it automatically has due to Windows 
Setup, since obviously it takes a 'power user' to find the 'Associate...'
option.  If for some reason you have this application but it is not set
up as a windows app yet, well I guess you're just going to have to launch it
from the FM, or drag it from the FM to the PM group.



		---- tomster@wpi.wpi.edu


--
/^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^\
|  The bleeding hearts and the artists  \ /  Words of Wisdom, Inc.            |
|  make their stand.  And when they've  / \  Thomas R. Dibble, esquire, C.E.O.|
|  given you their all, some stagger &  \ /  aka, The Tomster, Tomahawk, etc. |
|  fall,  after  all,  it's not  easy,  / \  send mail/ money to:             |
|  banging your heart against some mad  \ /  tomster@wpi.wpi.edu              |
|  bugger's wall. ---R. Waters, _Wall_  / \  (or don't send it at all)        |
\vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv/
From: ibhan@husc8.harvard.edu (Ishir Bhan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Future color Powerbooks?
Date: 30 Sep 92 22:51:29 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc8.ibhan.717893489

kim@i812.enet.dec.com writes:


>Does anyone know if Apple has plans to make a Powerbook w/ a color screen?
>It could use tech. similar to the Atari Lynx, which has a full color LCD
>screen. 

Yes.  The color PowerBooks are expected next year.  The main problem with
your suggestion, however, is that the Lynx has something like a 2.5 "
screen with a range of 4096.  The Mac needs considerably more than that.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
From: Simon Palmer <simon.palmer@anu.edu.au>
Subject: Apple IIg  & PageMaker (4.2) Grey scale problem
X-Xxdate: Mon, 28 Sep 92 22:59:23 GMT
Organization: The Australian National University
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d9
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 92 12:59:31 GMT

I have been having a problem with Apple's new laserwriter IIg printer. 
When printing from PageMaker 4.2 it does not print grey scales properly
... I printed out a grey scale chart from PageMaker and found that it
printed:

10% Grey as 0%
20% Grey as 10%
30% Grey as 20%
etc

Can anyone help me????

Ta    Simon


-----------------------------------------------------
Simon Palmer
ANU Graphics
The Australian National University
Email: simon.palmer@anu.edu.au
Address: GPO Box 4, Canberra City 2601, Australia
Phone: + (06) 249 2108
Fax: + (06) 249 0736

     o o
     \_/
From: patb@mcl.ucsb.edu (Pat Breitenbach)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: More Defense of CLI (there, I changed the subject ... )
Date: 4 Oct 92 21:50:06 GMT

In <1992Oct3.235607.14542@nwnexus.WA.COM> kanefsky@halcyon.com (Steve Kanefsky) writes:

>try this:  Go into your favorite word processor.  Type a line.  Now 
>make 5 copies of the line using command-C and command-V.  Now do the
>same using the copy and paste menu items.  Time each one and tell me
>which is faster.  A keyboard shortcut is essentially the same as  
>using a CLI, except you don't need to hit return at the end of the
>command.  CLIs may have a big disadvantage in terms of the time it 
>takes to learn the commands, but they often have a big advantage in
>speed, especially when you were already on the keyboard anyway and
>don't need to make an extra trip to the mouse and back.  If you agree
>that the CLI is faster in this case, you have to agree that there are
>essentially infinitely-many cases where the CLI is faster.

Yes, but then there are also infinitely many cases where the GUI is 
faster and whereas the CLI cases are the ones performed by the 5% of
us who are power users, the GUI cases are the ones used by the other
95% of us. I always chuckle a bit when someone writes an unintelligible
CLI doodad on the net and has the courage to boast about it. I think
we need to start recognizing the fact that we who spend time on the 
net are a very poor reflection of the people using the computers. 
Perhaps we might consider this in future arguments.

>  
>--
>Steve Kanefsky

Pat Breitenbach		patb@mcl.ucsb.edu
From: bcoleman@hayes.com (Bill Coleman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: When is a CLI faster than a GUI?
Date: 29 Sep 92 11:47:31 EDT
Organization: Hayes Microcomputer Products, Norcross, GA

In article <1992Sep29.004928.26815@news.cs.indiana.edu>, "Marc VanHeyningen" <mvanheyn@mango.ucs.indiana.edu> writes:
> Suppose you are addressing a subordinate in how to do something you want
> done.  You are in a hurry, and want to express the idea quickly.  Which
> of the following two subordinates is more valuable to you in this
> situation:
> 
> - The one who takes a pithy textual description of the task and performs
>   it immediately.  "Get coffee from 332-G."
> - The one who requests you express the task to be done by playing
>   charades, making particular movements to represent "go to room",
>   selecting the room 332-G from a lengthy list, making gestures indicating
>   that "coffee" is the thing you want him to get (or perhaps pointing to
>   a little picture of coffee on a poster of lots of different items.)
> 
> The only time you might consider using the second method of
> communication is if your subordinate only speaks Swahili and you can't
> address him in his language.

EXACTLY! And that is EXACTLY the situation with computers. They don't speak
the same language as humans do. Indeed, there's nothing to computers that
even compares to the richness of human languages. 

Instead, humans are forced to learn computer languages. Using "gestures"
is a much better solution.

> Thus, by analogy, Mac-like GUIs appeal mostly to people who can't or
> won't learn the computer's language.

"Appeal" is the wrong verb. This implies a motivation on the part of the
people who are unable to learn the computer's language.

Substitute the verb "are useful", and your analogy holds.

The Mac UI also appeals to people like me who can learn
the computers language, and have. The vast majority of the human population
are unable to learn the computer's language. 

Oddly enough, what is easy for the vast majority to adopt is also easy
for the "experts." Well, at least some of us.

Note also that your analogy still holds even if computers are given fully
capable natural language interfaces (even with speech recognition). There are
some things that are best expressed with gestures (like painting or playing
music) than with words. The line in the sand is drawn in a different place,
but it is still there.

-- 
Bill Coleman, AA4LR                ! CIS: 76067,2327    AppleLink: D1958
Principal Software Engineer        ! Packet Radio: AA4LR @ W4QO
Hayes Microcomputer Products, Inc. ! UUCP: uunet!hayes!bcoleman
POB 105203 Atlanta, GA 30348 USA   ! Internet: bcoleman%hayes@uunet.uu.net
Disclaimer: "My employer doesn't pay me to have opinions."
Quote: "The same light shines on vineyards that makes deserts." -Steve Hackett.