From: jmarttila@abo.fi (Fast-Eddie Felson)
Subject: Re: Business (was Re: Immigrants and employment)
Organization: Turku School of Economics
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 02:39:35 GMT

sooz@iastate.edu (Susan F Bradley) writes:
>euafri@eua.ericsson.se (Fredrik.Ostman) writes:
>>Ask old people if they consider Russia to be a better society to live
>>in now !
>>What use would it be? Don't you think these 70 years have left any
>>traces? Why don't you ask e.g. Vaclav Klaus if he wants to import
>>some socialism from the West! I think it's outrageous to use the
>>situation in Russia today as an argument for socialism. A whole
>>people has been bereft all their hope, all their money, all their
>>faith and social and economic abilities, and you say: "Look how
>>horrible capitalism is!" It's cynic in the words worst sense.
 
>Of course it would be useful. Whether people like you really want to admit it
>or not - the Soviets *did* manage to give the average person there a better 
>life than what they had before. There are a quite a few people here from what 
>used to be the Soviet Union. None of those I've spoken to wants to completely 
>abandon the old system - they realize that capitalism a la USA is just as bad
>a system in a different way than their old system. They hope to be able to
>find a balance between the two systems. 
 
It took a long time for the Bolsheviks to gain the production rates that
Russia had before the revolutions and the first world war. After the 
revolution the country was in chaos and the central government had only a 
little to say about what happened around the vast country. In the Czar's 
time the landowners made the workers (call them slaves, if you want) to do 
their job and the production was organized, though it still wasn't on the 
same level than in the western countries. It was not before the late 
twenties when most parts of the country were taking orders from Moskow and 
that was when the production rates slowly started to rise. We must not too 
blindly believe in the information we get about the triumph of the communist 
revolution O:).
 
The change from the old system cannot be done in one night. Severe mistakes 
have been done and it will take years until the Russian economy will be 
back to its feet. Before that no growth in the standard of living is to be 
expected. If the people want to back to their old system, it's just because 
they currently have it worse than what they used to have some years ago. 
 
It's not sensible to think that there's anything in common between the 
economic system in USA and in today's Russia. The average Russian doesn't 
know anything about the economic or social system of USA. Where would they 
have gained this information? They only know what they have been told in 
the government controlled tv, radio and newspapers. Don't you yourself get 
your information from these sources? Your sources just aren't that tightly 
controlled.
 
When saying that the system of USA is as bad than the system in the former 
USSR you should probably consider such things as freedom of speech, GNP per 
capita or simply how much food an American has to eat (even lower class)
among other things.
 
>>In Sweden we know that the system for insuring the unemployed
>>we have doesn't work once it is put to use. After six months the money
>>is spent, and unemployment is only rising. So much for that system.
 
>The US government has a huge deficit. We got it building bombs. Better to
>destroy the entire world than let our precious country fall to the hands of
>the Godless commies, they told us. Meanwhile our cities were crumbling. Our
>babies were dying. Our youth were snorting cocaine and shooting each other 
>over pairs of sport shoes. What kind of a society did we think we were 
>defending? This seems to be what you want. Please come take it away. 
>I don't know if I can stand it much longer, myself.
 
Oh, I don't think there are that many people in the Nordic countries that 
think of the States as an ideal country. I don't think Frederik ment that
either. The problem in Sweden is that they have a heavy social security 
system which probably makes the Swedes' live secure, but which is also very 
expensive. In Finland we have similar problems.
Still I wouldn't complain of being born in the USA. There are about 200 
countries in the world and you rank close to the top even though you have 
your problems.
 
It's hard to tell which comments of this discussion of immigration and 
social stuff are are ment to be taken seriously. I would, however, not like 
to see too many flames without reasoning based on some sort of facts. 
That's not nice and even less interesting to read O:).
 
        Greetings,
 
        Jouni 
    _______________________________________________________________________
    Jouni Marttila - Yo-kyl{ 11 B 25, 20540 Turku, FINLAND - +358 21 374624
         jmarttila@finabo.abo.fi - jmarttila@finabo - abovax::jmarttila
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