HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: grant_jo@ripple.enet.dec.com (Joel Grant)
Subject: More Warner Etc.
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: 10 SEP 92 12:21:06 PDT



re: 3230  (Tom Warner)


>Think a little harder. It's a question of the angle through the neck.
>Two inches differences on a neck is a big difference in degree angles.
>Either study your geometry, or leave the issue to somebody that understands
>this simple concept.

	Two inches on a neck is indeed a big difference.  Getting
	to that degree of accuracy over a difference of 150-190
	feet is another thing altogether.  Not knowing the exact
	location and posture of the neck is yet another problem.
	
>>	What Lattimer actually tested was the medical and
>>	ballistic evidence.  This evidence indicates decisively
>>	that JFK was struck twice from behind,

>The most any of Lattimer's tests could do was show that it was
>*possible* that Kennedy was hit twice from behind. The only
>thing decisive about any of it was, similar to yours, his
>pretentious language.

	I appreciate the compliment.

>>       from bullets
>>	fired from a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle with serial
>>	#C2766.

>Lattimer did absolutely nothing toward this goal, and it would be
>quite impossible for him to do so. He might, however, be able to test
>the *possibility* that Kennedy was hit by copper-jacketed bullets.
>fired from that Mannlicher Carcano.

	Lattimer relied upon the ballistics evidence that
	showed both CE399 and the limo fragments came
	from C2766 to the exclusion of all other rifles
	in the world.  This evidence is presented in
	the WCR.  It might make interesting reading for you.

>Since there is no evidence connecting the bullets in evidence
>to the scene of the crime, the best anyone can do is compare
>rifling. CE399 was almost certainly fired from Oswald's rifle,
>the fragments alleged to be the fragments recovered from the limo
>were probably fired from the same rifle.

	They compare more than rifling per se when they
	make these ballistic matches.  Again, try reading
	the ballistic evidence that was presented.

	See also the NAA analysis which not only ties
	the Connally wrist fragments to CE399, but the
	limo fragments to the fragment removed from
	JFK's head.

>>       It is Lattimer's opinion, which I share, that
>>	the guy pulling the trigger was the owner of the rifle,
>>	Lee Harvey Oswald.  You perhaps observe the difference?

>Yes. Although I think it is more a matter of faith than opinion.

	Perhaps so, though I have noticed that "faith" is 
	needed more desperately by those who have to keep
	inventing ways to explain away the mountains of
	physical evidence.

Joel Grant (speaking on his own behalf)

Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
From: grant_jo@ripple.enet.dec.com (Joel Grant)
Subject: Lattimer, part two
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date:  4 SEP 92 17:58:52 PDT


In the interest of completeness (and anticipating cries of
cover up!) I'll present all of Lattimer's conclusions, even
though his evaluation of the medical and ballistic evidence
per se is by far the most interesting.

1. "Why had the X-rays and photographs been taken away from
the doctors who did the autopsy before they had a chance to
use them to document their findings as they had expected to
do?  There was no doubt that this withholding had added to the
questions and to the shortcomings of the Warren Commission
report."

Lattimer's conclusion: "Humes did not know it at the time,
but all these photographs and X-rays were commandeered during
the autopsy and taken away by Treasury Department agents
before the pictures could be developed.  This was done to
avoid the shocking effect they would have on the public if
they were exploited, and particularly on members of the family if
they were forced to see these photographs of the bloody remains
of their relative's head displayed in lurid bookstore windows.
While this quest for privacy was certainly understandable and 
legitimate, to deprive the autopsy team of the benefit of the 
photographs andparticularly the X-rays on which they would depend so
heavily made it impossible for Humes and Boswell to assemble the accurate
report they had planned to make.  This led to an avalanche of
criticism [at the time, I was one of the small critical rocks -
jg] of the entire post-mortem examination, which was to 
continue for several years, until the family finally relented
and permitted the photographs to be developed and then to be 
inspected by a panel of experts."  [The Clark Panel, jg]

In some ways, Dr. Lattimer was utterly naive...

Joel Grant (speaking on his own behalf)
From: grant_jo@ripple.enet.dec.com (Joel Grant)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: High Tea, Too
Date: 9 Sep 92 20:07:49 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


re: 3197  (David Wright)


||Harrison Livingstone does a pretty good number on Lifton's
||daffy theory in HTII.

|Just a note on this. H. Livingstone does a very *bad* job on
|everything in HTII. Note that when he talks to witnesses he does not
|recognize, for the most part, that he is leading them, and tries to
|bargain with the Dallas people to give them their dignity in exchange
|for interview time. 

	I quite agree that, for the most part, Livingstone does
	a very bad job.  It so happens that he does a pretty
	good job on the body mutilation scenario.  I guess
	nobody is completely *imperfect*...

Joel Grant  (speaking on his own behalf)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
From: grant_jo@ripple.enet.dec.com (Joel Grant)
Subject: Lattimer, Second Question
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date:  9 SEP 92 13:26:18 PDT


After time out to address the seven postings most recently 
addressed to me, let's look at Lattimer's second question:

2. "Why were the actual photographs and X-rays not included in the
*final* Warren Commission report?"

Lattimer's conclusion: (p.192)  "Chief Justice Earl Warren had
written to me [a portion of the letter is reproduced on p. 193 - jg]
that withholding these materials from inclusion in the Warren
report was his personal decision, since the testimony was clear and
he wanted to spare the President's family."

Let me observe here that Congressman Joe Kennedy recently denounced
NBC News for showing one autopsy photo on the air.  The Congressman
appeared to be outraged.  Clearly, at least this member of the
family does not wish to have JFK's autopsy photos and X-rays
made a a part of the public record.

I personally feel that Warren was wrong in this decision; but
the question is why the decision was made.

Joel Grant  (speaking on his own behalf)
From: "davidr turner" <davidr.turner@canrem.com>
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: quantum leap (nbc)
Date: 6 Sep 92 16:50:28 EST
Reply-To: "davidr turner" <davidr.turner@canrem.com>
Distribution: alt
Organization: Canada Remote Systems

       on 06-09-92 in the  U-ALTCONSP conference
       regarding ' QUANTUM LEAP (NBC) SAM LE '

       JERRY KUCH wrote...

JK>  Newsgroup: alt.conspiracy.jfk
JK> Message-ID: <1992Sep3.183223.29228@reed.edu>
JK>    Subject: Quantum Leap (NBC) Sam leaps to Oswald

JK>In article <20116#plains.NoDak.edu> kruger@plains.NoDak.edu (Donovan Kruger)
JK>tes:
JK>>This reminds me of a show I saw in which someone went back in time as
JK>>one of JFK's advisors and friends.  I think it was an Amazing Stories
JK>>episode or such.  Anyway, he had the oppurtunity to save JFK and then
JK>>couldn't because he saw what would happen in the future if JFK stayed
JK>>alive in the cold war.  Since JFK was this man's idol, he thought the only
JK>>was to save JFK was to become him himself.  At the end of the episode
JK>>during the shooting, The man's body, not JFK's, was on the ambulance.

As mentioned by others, it was the Twilight Zone.
The guy who went back was a teacher, and adescendant of JFK.  He was
doing a study of the man.  He went back in time to Dallas to witness the
event, and at the last minute, got so concerned, he yelled out, thus
saving JFK's life.

Somehow (I don't recall), the Secret Service grabbed him & brought him
to JFK's attention later.  JFK then asked him to come with him on the
rest of the Dallas trip.

Later, JFK suspects that something odd is going on, and the teacher
confesses the truth.  JFK figures he was supposed to die, and so, we
then watch the next day as 'JFK' is assassinated in Dallas.

The show ends with JFK teaching in the future, and we then realize that
the teacher had switched places with him in the car.

Later...

 * SLMR 2.1a * Back Up My Hard Drive? I Can't Find The Reverse Switch!
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario/Detroit, MI
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
From: kuch@reed.edu (Jerry Kuch)
Subject: Re: Explosive Bullets (was: How easy was the rifle shot?)
Keywords: pretentious summaries confine us to derisive jeers
Organization: OoogaNooga's Self Nullifying Cubicle
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 00:15:00 GMT

In article <schuck.715677789@sfu.ca> Bruce_Schuck@sfu.ca writes:
>kuch@reed.edu (Jerry Kuch) writes:
>
>>In article <schuck.715632635@sfu.ca> Bruce_Schuck@sfu.ca writes:
>>>royc@tcsrtp.uucp (Roy Andrew Crabtree) writes:
>>>
>>>>The term "frangible" is unfortunately used ambiguously to refer to multiple
>>>>types of ammunition:
>>>
>>>>	1)  Dumdums, or solid cones designed to fragment at impact
>>>>	2)  Hollow points, dsigned to spread at impact
>>>>	3)  Particulates designed to fragment and spread before/on impact
>>>>	  for maximum damage
>>>>	4)  _Explosives_ designed to pop just after entry.
>>>
>>>>The only type of shell an assassin would _not_ be likely to use (other than
>>>>an ordinary shell) in a high energy rifle would be 3).  Since _no tests_
>>>>seem to have been done by the WC on the aspect of chemanalysis, 4) is a rather
>>>>open possibility.  Perhaps the reason the "neutron activation" tests were not
>>>>released is the availability of "footprint" in the trace signature
>>>>therein provided, relative to chemical composition analysis:  the presence of
>>>>an identifiable compound _not_ present in the ordinary "Carcano"
>>>>scenario would be rather embarrassing, wouldn't it?
>>>
>>>In Dr Guinn's NAA testing, he found elements not normally associated
>>>with Mannlicher-Carcan ammunition.
>>>
>>>In addition to Lead, Silver, and Antimony, he found Sodium , Chlorine,
>>>and Aluminum. Would these 'extra' elements point to an explosive
>>>bullet?
>>>
>
>>So, uhhh, which bullet are you talking about here?  CE399, or one of the
>>Connally, Kennedy or limo fragments?
>
>The data I have in front of me concerns the difference between
>CE399 and the Connally wrist fragment.
>
>The wrist fragment contained 25% more silver, 850% more copper,
>2400% more Sodium, and 1100% more chlorine than CE399. It also
>contained 8.1 ppm aluminum while CE399 contained none.

Is this the HSCA data?  What's the deal with the Sodium and chlorine?

>I don't have the JFK head fragment results in front of me.
>The HSCA vol 1 had to go back to the library at the end of 
>the semester.

The SFU library had the HSCA volumes?  Impressive....

-- 
Jerry Kuch (t-gerldk@microsoft.com) | "Sic Gorgianus Allos Subjectatus Nunc."
  "I was wrong to play God.  Life is precious, not a thing to be toyed with.
   Now take out that brain and flush it down the toilet." - Montgomery Burns

Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
From: david@cats.ucsc.edu (David Wright)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: Marrs on the Back entry wound
Date: 9 Sep 1992 04:02:51 GMT
Organization: University of California; Santa Cruz
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: si.ucsc.edu
Keywords: researchers' revelations about the murder of President Kennedy


In article <1992Sep8.174411.10959@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> jad@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (John DiNardo) writes:
|
|JIM MARRS [author of CROSSFIRE]:

|Now, the problem is that the bullet did not go through his neck.
|The Warren Commission plainly states that it hit him in the
|middle of the back -- the third thoracic vertebrae, between the
|shoulder blades.

The third thoracic vertebrae is not "in the middle of the back".
However, it should be, for most people, lower than the neck. Weather
it is or not depends on the shape of JFK's body and so on.

|... Plus, you've got Governor Connally's
|wrist X-ray, which shows that there are still more pieces of
|bullet in his wrist today than are missing off of the bullet that
|the Government still claims caused the wound.

Oh really? I thought that depended on the testimony of one of the
nurses.

|We now have the January 27th minutes of the Warren Commission, in
|which their Chief Counsel admits that since we have a picture of
|where the bullet entered the back, that it's below the place
|where it came out the front. So how could it go and turn around,
|etc.?

That's better. To me, that is a very good indication that the WC is
lying and the magic bullet theory is full of beans. I whish we knew
what the Chief Counsel was looking at!

-- 
   |^^^^^^|      _______________________________________________________
   |      |      |"There is nothing in the marginal conditions that    | 
   |      |      | distinguish a mountain from a mole hill"            |
   | (o)(o)      O         Kenneth Boulding                            | 
   @      _)    o|_____________________________________________________|  
    |  ____\ o o
    |     /   
   /     \                              All comments  are mine---(David Wright) 
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
From: bill@prijat.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: Re: Quantum Leap (NBC) Sam leaps to Oswald
Date: 8 Sep 92 19:44:01 GMT
Reply-To: bill@platypus.uofs.edu
Organization: University of Scranton, Scranton, PA

In article <20116@plains.NoDak.edu>, kruger@plains.NoDak.edu (Donovan Kruger) writes:
|> 
|> I'm not exactly sure if I got all that right.  Does anyone else remember
|> seeing this?  

And the very ending shows JFK lecturing on Political Science in the 21st
century.

bill

-- 

     Bill Gunshannon          |        If this statement wasn't here,
     bill@platypus.uofs.edu   |  This space would be left intentionally blank
     bill@tuatara.uofs.edu    |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
From: schuck@fraser.sfu.ca (Bruce Jonathan Schuck)
Subject: Autopsy notes (Refuting Joels delusions)
Reply-To: Bruce_Schuck@sfu.ca
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 04:59:45 GMT

Joel Grant >  
Bruce Schuck >>

>	I'll do my subject lines, you do yours.

If you insist.

>>No matter the reason, the burning of Humes's autopsy notes should have
>>made the autopsy report inadmissable in court.

>>Recently in Canada, a judge threw out a Police Officers testimony
>>because he was reading from 'recreated' notes , not the original notes
>>he took at the time.

>>In the JFK autopsy:

>>The 'original' notes *were* the record of the autopsy.

>>The 'recreated' notes *are* just a work of fiction.

>	Recreated notes are notes made when the originals
>	are lost.  The recreated notes are done from memory. 
>	Humes did not use "re-created" notes - he copied directly
>	from the originals, word-for-word.  

Prove it. Prove that he left in every word in the same location.
Prove he did no editting. Prove that he made no mistakes in the
transcription.

You can't because he burned the one and only record of the autopsy.

Hell Joel, his *fictional* notes don't match the notes the FBI took.

>Do you really think
>	that blood and tissue-spattered autopsy notes are regularly
>	hauled around in courtrooms?

No, but if a defence attorney wanted them, they would have to be
available.
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
From: cortez@milton.u.washington.edu (Tom Warner)
Subject: Re: Question from a newbie
Organization: University of Washington
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 04:03:26 GMT

dxc4@po.CWRU.Edu (David Condon) writes:


>In a previous article, rahayden@news.weeg.uiowa.edu (Silicon Avatar) says:

>>I apologize if this question has been gone over before, but I have a
>>nagging question that I haven't been able to find the answer to.
>>
>>To what extent was the area around the fence on the grassy knoll searched
>>following the shooting?

>The policemen and citizens who went up on the knoll after the shooting
>were immediately ordered away by unknown persons claiming to be Secret
>Service agents. The Secret Service said they had no agents anywhere in the
>Plaza after the assassination. No search was made at the time.

Well, I don't think it was quite that dramatic. Police did go back behind the
fence and search the area, arresting the now-famous "railcar bums."
The amount of early attention given to this area is why it took police so
long -- over half an hour -- to even locate the sixth-floor "assassin's lair"
in the TSBD. After that, attention turned to the TSBD, and I've never heard
of anyone doing any tests on the trees or fence.

There are two reports of men identifying themselves as Secret Service on the
knoll, one to a policeman, one to a bystander who was running in the direction
she had heard the shots come from. As I recall, in at least one case Secret
Service I.D. was flashed. I don't think this did any more than give a little
time to anyone behind the fence to clear out and deflect attention from the
men posing as agents, who might otherwise have been detained. The area was
searched, but as far as I know, only by walking around and looking -- it
wasn't exactly treated like an archaeological dig, let's put it that way.

>>
>>My thinking is that if the assassins were shooting from behind the fence
>>with the rifles braced on it, there would be powder burns in the fence
>>itself, or the surrounding trees (very tiny, nearly microscopic, but
>>still there).  I know in the chaos of the moments after the shooting, that
>>isn't something to look for, but I would think it would ultimately be
>>checked out, espicially with all of the witnesses who state they saw smoke
>>and activity behind the fence.
>>
>>Also, were the shell casings found in the book depository ever
>>fingerprinted?

I don't think so. A

>>what were the results?  did they have LHO's prints on them
>>or were they print free?
>>
>>Thanks.
>>
>>
>>
>>-- 
>>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>> Robert Hayden                  | Black holes result    | My views do not 
>> rahayden@UMAXC.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU  | from God dividing the | reflect the views
>> AQ650@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU    | universe by zero      | of my employer.
>>
>-- 
>          "In universities, it is forbidden to teach nonsense. 
>          But the _history_ of nonsense -- that's scholarship!"

>                                            -- Saul Lieberman
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
From: sheaffer@netcom.com (Robert Sheaffer)
Subject: Re: Teen Agent, Can you Hear Me? Teen Agent, Can You See Me? (was: Clay Shaw is Clay Bertrand, Oswald *was* a Teen Agent
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 15:33:30 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <1992Sep03.211921.11542@tcsrtp.uucp> royc@tcsrtp.uucp (Roy Andrew Crabtree) writes:
>
>... since all such evidence MUST come from the CIA, ipso facto, if the
>CIA say it didn't, there must not be any ...  get real!  Oswald
>scored 50% on a Russian test while in Japan ...  why would
>he know Russian if not in Intelcom work?

Oswald's mother, a devout Marxist, learned Russian so that she could read
Leninist Holy Writ in its orignal language. I suppose it's *quite* impossible
that Lee Harvey, who shared his mother's religious faith, might have learned
some Russian at home?


-- 
  
        Robert Sheaffer - Scepticus Maximus - sheaffer@netcom.com
  
 Past Chairman, The Bay Area Skeptics - for whom I speak only when authorized!

       "Beware when the great God lets loose a thinker on this planet.
        Then all things are at risk. It is as when a conflagration has
        broken out in a great city, and no man knows what is safe, or
        where it will end."
                               - Emerson: Essay, "Circles"
From: bill@prijat.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: Re: Lattimer, part two
Date: 15 Sep 92 19:23:42 GMT
Organization: Department of Computing Sciences

In article <cortez.715956507@milton>, cortez@milton.u.washington.edu (Tom Warner) writes:
|> 
|> Treasury Department agents? Not that I believe Lattimer without
|> evidence, but if true. why the Treasury? Who would have gotten them into it?
|> 

You don't know what department the Secret Service comes under, do you??

bill

-- 

     Bill Gunshannon          |        If this statement wasn't here,
     bill@platypus.uofs.edu   |  This space would be left intentionally blank
     bill@tuatara.uofs.edu    |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>
From: cortez@milton.u.washington.edu (Tom Warner)
Subject: Re: High Tea, Too
Organization: University of Washington
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 02:31:40 GMT

grant_jo@ripple.enet.dec.com (Joel Grant) writes:


>re: 3197  (David Wright)


>||Harrison Livingstone does a pretty good number on Lifton's
>||daffy theory in HTII.

>|Just a note on this. H. Livingstone does a very *bad* job on
>|everything in HTII. Note that when he talks to witnesses he does not
>|recognize, for the most part, that he is leading them, and tries to
>|bargain with the Dallas people to give them their dignity in exchange
>|for interview time. 

>	I quite agree that, for the most part, Livingstone does
>	a very bad job.  It so happens that he does a pretty
>	good job on the body mutilation scenario.  I guess
>	nobody is completely *imperfect*...

Oh, I think the jury's still out on that one, Joel. :)

Not that I think you formed your judgments on the basis of anything other
than prejudice, but I happen to agree with you. I would also say that it
has *always* been up to the the independent researchers to test each other's
theories in any intellectually honest way, since the pro-WC camp is, for
all intents and purposes, completely prejudiced toward one set of explanations
and completely without the balls to really take on the critics' ideas head-on.
Instead, it took Livingstone to do what the WC itself should have done in
1964: get the Baltimore and Dallas doctors and med techs together to reconcile
the apparent differences in what they saw.

Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk