From: cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Enforced Shakespeare?
Date: 9 Oct 92 20:18:09 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <9210081449.AA00454@cfdev1.shearson.com>, mtaranto@shearson.com (Mark Taranto) writes:
> cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:
# # Tell me, do you honestly not find something profoundly disturbing
# # that three students out of 50 managed to advance to an upper division
# # class in a university, without knowing that an assignment should be
# # turned in with a mixture of upper and lower case letters?
#  
# Sure it is disturbing.  It would be nice if all students were well
# prepared for every class.  But it doesn't happen.  As we saw in the
# recent "Literature Students" discussion, there is a real difference in
# the backgrounds of students in the sciences and in the arts.  It is
# nearly impossible to take an upper division Physics class without
# having the necessary prerequisites.  On the other hand, lots of people
# take upper division classes in the liberal arts without being properly
# prepared.  It could just be that these three students never had to
# hand in a paper before.
#  
# As someone wisely pointed out, students are there to learn.  If they
# knew everything going in, then they would not need to be there.

Gee, they didn't learn this writing an essay in high school somewhere?
My point stands -- there is something profoundly disturbing about what
this says about declining standards at our high schools.

# But there are a few other issues, here.  One issue involves who should
# be allowed to go to college?  Some people are not well prepared for college.
# Others can go in, and succeed immediately.  Do we want to make college
# available only to the elite?  Or do we want to make college available
# to everyone -- or nearly everyone.

How about, "available to those who received something approaching a
minimal education in high school?"  Such as learning the basic form
of an essay; at least some algebra & geometry; and even such obscure
areas of knowledge as a physical science.

# Some might argue that colleges should only allow people in if they are well
# prepared.  But I think that there are a lot of people who will do well in
# a university atmosphere, who might not have done well before.  I think that
# those people should be given a chance.  This means that some people are
# going to be let in who do not belong.  It also means that some people
# will fail.  In this light, 6% doesn't seem so bad.  If half of these
# people learn from their mistakes -- as many people do, then we are down
# to 3%.  I don't find this profoundly disturbing at all.

Maybe they can start teaching reading and writing, too.  After all,
if a high school has simply failed to teach what those funny squiggles
on the page are, why should we discriminate against such people in
a university? :-)

# Sonoma State is a state university.  While I'm sure one can get a decent
# education there, it isn't known as one of the more selective state

Yes, you can.

# universities (like Virginia, William & Mary, Michigan or the public

Yes, definitely.

# half of Cornell).  This means that some students who might not otherwise
# have a chance to go to college are going to be there.  Some of them might
# not belong.  If this is a problem for Clayton, perhaps he ought to transfer
# to Stanford, where he can study with his buddy John McCarthy.

Actually, the problem is that universities are being dumbed down to
a level appropriate to high school, so as to avoid excluding people
who are simply unprepared.

# # If some small number of students started showing up in classes
# # with no awareness that it is considered inappropriate to take a
# # leak in the middle of the lecture hall, in the middle of the
# # lecture, would you gush, "Wow!  At least 94% of the students
# # know better!"
#  
# If three students pissed in class, they would be doing something that
# bothered all of the students.  If they fail to produce good work,
# they are only hurting themselves.  I see a big difference here, and
# suspect that Clayton also sees this difference.  His argument is
# no less fatuous because it is written in a mix of upper and lower case.
#  
# Mark

Where did I say that incompetence in knowing when to operate the
caps keys injured others?  My point was that something is going
badly wrong in secondary education, when a professor has to remind
even 6% of the students that we don't just set CAPS LOCK and start
typing.



-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
Lesson learned from Gov. Wilson's signing of AB 2601: if you don't get 
your way, have a riot.  Next time, Gov. Wilson will cower appropriately.