From: johnsd2@jec324.its.rpi.edu.its1 (Daniel Norman Johnson)
Subject: Re: The Health of a Great Nation....
Reply-To: johnsd2@jec324.its.rpi.edu.its1
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 22:41:12 GMT

In article B6p@boi.hp.com, jburrill@boi.hp.com (Jim Burrill) writes:
>
>I quoted "Honest Abe":
>|>- Abraham Lincoln: "It is the duty of nations, as well as of men, to own
>|>-their
>|>dependence upon the overruling power of God and to recognize the sublime
>|>truth announced in the Holy Scriptures and proven by all history, that those
>|>nations only are blessed whose God is the Lord"
>
>A comment made:

By me.

>|This is a suprising line from the guy who said "the Bible is not my
>|book; Christianity is not my religion". But otherwise its the same
>|stuff as the above. says nothign about government.
>
>Perhaps some others with more objective viewpoints would be interested in the
>entire context of the speech Lincoln gave:

(Abusive) Argument ad hominem, very unimpressive. You could
at least call me NEW names. But lets take a look anyway.

>From Abraham Lincoln's "Proclamation Appointing a National Fast Day," March
>30, 1863:
>
>"Whereas, the Senate of the United States devoutly recognizing the Supreme
>Authority and just Government of Almighty God in all the affairs of men and of
>nations, has, by a resolution, requested the President to designate and set
>apart a day for national prayer and humiliation:

Neither the President nor the Congress has authority to do this,
officially. Of course, if its just Abe Lincoln saying "Hey, let's
pray!" that's different. But if Congress told him to do it...

>And whereas, it is the duty of nations as well as of men to own their
>dependence upon the overruling power of God, to confess their sins and
>transgressions in humble sorrow yet with assured hope that genuine repentance
>will lead to mercy and pardon, and to recognize the sublime truth, announced
>in the Holy Scriptures and proven by all history: that those nations only are
>blessed whose God is the Lord:

That is pretty silly. I rather expect he is being political as hell
in saying this.

>And, insomuch as we know that, by His divine law, nations like individuals are
>subjected to punishments and chastisements in this world, may we not justly 
>fear that the awful calamity of civil war, which now desolates the land may
>be but a punishment inflicted upon us for our presumptuous sins to the needful
>end of our national reformation as a whole people; We have been the recipients
>of the choicest bounties of Heaven. We have been preserved these many years
>in peace and prosperity.

This all rather subjective; it sure doesn't look that way to me.

> We have grown in numbers, wealth and power as no
>other nation has ever grown.

Surely untrue. See Alexander's Empire.

> But we have forgotten God. We have forgotten the
>gracious Hand which preserved us in peace, and multiplied and enriched and
>strengthened us;

Sez him... but then he's a theist. I disagree.

> and we have vainly imagined,, in the deceitfulness of our
>hearts, that all these blessings were produced by some superior wisdom and
>virtue of our own.

Dont quite see what's superior about it.

>  Intoxicated with unbroken success,

The War of 1812 was a success? We SURVIVED anyway...

So much for unbroken.

> we have become too
>self-sufficient to feel the necessity of redeeming and preserving grace,
>too proud to pray to the God that made us!
>
>It behooves us then to humble ourselves before the offended Power, to confess
>our national sins and to pray for clemency and forgiveness.      [. . . ]
>
>All this being done, in sincerity and truth, let us then rest humbly in the
>hope authorized by the Divine teachings, that the united cry of the nation
>will be heard on high and answered with blessings no less than the pardon of
>our national sins and the restoration of our now divided and suffering
>country to its former happy condition of unity and peace.

Didn't work. The then-not-so-united States wound up bleeding for 4
years isntead of getting miraculous aid.

Yup, you guessed it... I won't even take Abe Lincolns word as The Truth (tm).

But I will take the Constitution as The Law (tm).

>In witness whereof, I have hereunto set my hand and caused the seal of the
>United States to be affixed. By the President: Abraham Lincoln.
>

I have no problem here, since it appear to be just Abe saying
"Hey, Let's pray!", except that he affixed the seal of the U.S.
to this document, and the fact that the Congresse asked him to do
it. It is not the function of the government to tell anyone when to
pray of all things!

Lincoln has the right to speak his mind on religious view, but not
the right to FORCE those views on anyone else. That's all.

An "official suggestion" is too much of an establishment of religion
for my taste (but I see that it is debatable).
---
			- Dan Johnson
And God said "Jeeze, this is dull"... and it *WAS* dull. Genesis 0:0

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