From: psyrobtw@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Robert Weiss)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Islamic stories...
Date: 27 Aug 92 03:59:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <l9nl03INNg6p@pollux.usc.edu>, aabdalla@pollux.usc.edu (Ahmed Abd-Allah) writes...

>I'm glad you posted: it gives me an opportunity to really start a good 
>discussion now.  First: who wrote the translation you used?

	I didn't use one translation. I have the Yusif Ali, the M. 
Shakir and the N. Dawood translations. But I like to paraphrase, since 
whenever I have quoted the Q. in a debate with a Muslim, I have been told 
that I have been using the wrong translation. That seems to be the 
first step. So when I ask which translation to use I received 
different answers. Most tell me that the translations are wrong just 
by the fact that they are translations. I need to learn arabic they 
tell me.

> 
>>	God never commands us to do a shameful thing (7:28; 6:131)
>>	God commands people to sin in order to rightly destroy them 
>>	(17:16)
> 
>I strongly recommend that you abstain from quoting things in fragments
>to hide their context - not just with the Qur'an, but in general.  And
>with the Qur'an, you ought to quote the verse directly, instead of 
>paraphrasing as you do.

	I would rather paraphrase since I have been told that the 
arabic is not directly translatable.

> 
>Verse [7:28] is speaking on the mentality of some people who sin:
> 
>	[7:28]
>	When they do anything that is shameful, they say:
>	"We found our fathers doing so" and "Allah commanded
>	us thus".  Say (O Prophet): "Nay, Allah never
>	commands what is shameful: Do you attribute to Allah
>	something of which you have no knowledge?"
> 
>I don't know what your translation is talking about in [6:131]; it
>is very clearly wrong.  It does not speak of the same subject as [7:28].
>[6:131] states that God does not destroy any community for its evils
>until it has been warned.
> 
>	[6:131]
>	For they Lord would not destroy a community for its 
>	wrongdoing so long as its people are unwarned (or ignorant).
> 

	Coorect. I had said that Allah does not command us to do a 
shameful thing, which you bear out.

>By paraphrasing [17:16] AND ignoring the verses preceding it you add
>to the translator's mistranslation: a double mistake.  

	Preceding it? The Qur'an is not compiled in a temporal form. 
It is not `this is the oldest, this goes first.' It is `this is the 
longest, this goes first.' The fact that averse precedes another in 
the Q is not proof that it was written first, since the compilers of 
the Q started with the longest verses and then went to the shortest. 
For you to say that 17:15 comes before 17:16 in a temporal sense is a 
fabrication. Or, `lie' in your words.

>	[17:16]
>	When We decide to destroy a community We (first) send
>	a command (to mend their ways) to those among them
>	who are given the good things of this life and yet 
>	transgress, until the word is proved true against them
>	(with no excuse): then We destroy them entirely.

	The part of `to mend their ways' is an addition. It is not in 
the Q. You are inserting something so that the Q does not contradict 
itself. The meaning of 17:16 is that Allah tells the people to sin so 
that he can rightly destroy them.

>Why did you misquote?

	Why did you insert something that wasn't there and presume 
that it was a quote?

> 
>>	8 days in Creation (41:9-12)
>>	6 days in cretaion (10:3, 11:7, 7:54)
> 
>With this paraphrase, you commit an outright lie, if I may be so blunt.  
>I hate to use such strong language, but you should have quoted the
>entire passage instead of paraphrasing.  NOWHERE in [41:9-12] is a
>figure of '8 days' given.  I leave it to you to present your claim.

	The earth was made in 2 days (41:9)
	all things in it      4 days (41:10)
	the heavens in        2 days (41:12)
			    --------
		total =       8 days	  

>>	Commands people to wait one year in order to remarry after the 
>>	death of a spouse (2:240)
>>	Wait for only 4 months and 10 days (2:234)
> 
>Either your translator has made an even worse mistake, or you have
>misread something.  Either way, your paraphrase is wrong.

	The translation that I am using states that women should keep 
themselves apart from men for 4 months 10 days (2:234). While 2:240 
states that there should be a year's maintenance so that the widows 
should not leave their homes. Be apart from men for a year and be 
apart from men for 4 months 10 days. Very consistent.

>>	God said Muhammad not to marry any other woman (33:52)
>>	God told Muhammad to marry any one he wanted or liked (33:50)
> 
>When I saw how long these two verses were, I nearly fainted...  Your
>translator and yourself are again guilty of mistranslation, misquotation,
>and thus wrong.
> 
>	The beginning of [33:50]
>	O Prophet, We have made lawful to you your wives to
>	whom you have paid their dower...
> 
>	The beginning of [33:52]
>	It is not lawful to you (O Prophet) to (marry more) 
>	women after this...
> 
>Where's the contradiction?  [33:50] speaks of the wives of the Prophet.
>[33:52] speaks of other women.  In this case, I don't think your translator
>made a mistake: I find it hard to believe he doesn't know the difference
>between the Arabic words for 'wives' and 'women'.  Perhaps you misread 
>something.

	Other women before they became his wives. Like his 
son-in-law's wife that he took, and the 8 year old girl that he 
`married.' For that matter, Muslims are limited to 4 wives. How many 
did Muhammed have?


> 
>>>	much love in Christianity.  Christians often mistakenly
>>>	think that only their religion has love...  Wrong.  Islam
>>>	is from the same One God who sent Jesus as His mortal
>[stuff deleted]
>>>	You'll find the love still present, but
>>[...]
>>	Commands them to kill non-Muslims after the months of Rageab, 
>>	Zu El Kea'ada, Zu El Heaga, Ramadan (9:5; 9:73; 66:9; 2:193; 
>>	2:256)
> 
>The logic that you are using is mysterious to me.  My previous post
>spoke of the Love of God.  Your reply is to come up with five verses -
>and not a single one quoted - that speak of war.  However, in this case
>your are at least partially right: these verses DO speak of war.
> 

	Wrong.

	You didn't say that you were speaking of the love of God. You 
said that Christians thought that theirs was the only religion that 
had love... implying that Muslims have a religion of love. If you can 
call slaying non-Muslims love, then you may have a point. Otherwise 
you have a blood thirsty cult that is perpetuated at the tip of a 
scimitar.

	Like, for instance, where do we get the word `assassin' from?

=============================
Robert Weiss
psyrobtw@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu