From: strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom)
Subject: Continuity in Messianic Judaism (was Re: Messianic Judaism 4 Of 4)
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 15:30:50 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM Research

In article <139294.2A6D02DB@paranet.FIDONET.ORG>, Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson) writes:
|> 
|>  RS> From: strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom)
|>  RS> Message-ID: <1992Jul20.204105.20615@watson.ibm.com>
|>            -=> Quoting Rob Strom to Bill Carlson <=-
|>  RS> an earlier post.  He identified as a "Hebrew Christian",
|>  RS> another term Messianics used in the 1970's.  He then
|>  RS> converted his sister.  So both individuals were Messianics
|>  RS> in the same sense that 3% of the Jewish population is
|>  RS> Messianic today.  Only their *spouses* were Gentiles.
|> 
|> No; that would be more in the sense that the 12% who are in Gentile
|> Churches would be.  "Hebrew Christian", as a term used by the Hebrew
|> Christian Alliance, was applied to those who were for the most part
|> in a non-Observant Gentile "type" Church settting.  They still exist;
|> and the MJA -Messianic Jewish Alliance is an off-shoot of that
|> group, but typically more observant than the Hebrew Christian Alliance
|> was.  For example, while the Hebrew Christian Alliance might
|> celebrate easter, the UMJC -{which started in 1967 if I recall
|> correctly}, wouldn't celebrate that, but would celebrate Pesach and
|> Omer Raesheet -the First Feast of First Fruits.  So..., it wouldn't be
|> that much of a change for them to go into a Gentile Church setting,
|> from where they were at already.

I renamed the thread to try to recapture what I thought we
were talking about.  There were two subtopics: (1) continuity
between today's Messianic tradition and Jewish belief in the
past, and (2) degree to which Messianic tradition seeks to
preserve Jewish identity in the future.

I thought that the Messianics on this b-board were attempting
to defend the position that Messianic "Judaism" is historically
a Jewish movement, as much so as so-called "Rabbinic" Judaism,
which boasts a continuous tradition back into ancient times.
I was arguing the opposite:  that Messianic "Judaism" is
historically a neo-Christian movement whose major objective
is to "save the souls" of Jews according to modern Protestant
notions of what that means, and is in no way the successor
of any indigenous Jewish religious movement.

Now I am still coping with a slippery definition of what
is or isn't Messianic, and I don't know the details of
the organizations involved (please post if you think
the differences between MJA and UMJC are important enough
to be relevant).  But it does seem that you undercut
your own argument if you say that today's MJA is historically
an offshoot of the Hebrew Christian Alliance, and that
the Hebrew Christian Alliance is *not* messianic as
you define that term, but Gentile.

|> 
|>  RS> No.  They went into a Gentile Church after having been Messianics.
|>  RS> They were raised Jewish, converted to Christianity as Messianic
|>  RS> Jews, and then some time later joined a Gentile Church.  I don't
|>  RS> think this is so rare as you imply.
|>  
|> From the HCA to a Gentile Church?  Perhaps not; but I was talking about
|> from Observant Messianic Judaism, not from a HCA experience.
|> 
|>  RS> Now I'm totally lost.  If the Jewish spouse was male, the
|>  RS> children *wouldn't* be Jewish unless the wife converted.
|>  RS> And how does your "principle" allow you to not require
|>  RS> a conversion?  Do you claim to be performing halachic
|>  RS> marriages in this case?
|>  
|> That is correct; the children wouldn't under Orthodox standard; however
|> under Reform standard, if the father is Jewish the children are still
|> considered Jewish; even if there wasn't a conversion done of the
|> spouse.  So, no; I wouldn't say that such a marriage would be done
|> under correct Orthodox halachah if preformed.  I've been trying to
|> remember, and all I recall of marriages that were "mixed", were once
|> two Jewish men married Gentile women; and one Jewish woman married a
|> Jewish man.  The other times, it was Messianic Gentiles getting married
|> to the same; or Messianic Jews marrying Messianic Jews.  Since I'm not
|> the Rebbe :-), I don't have to worry about all the ins and outs on
|> that particular subject.  And if it came up, I'd just take it on an
|> individual basis if I was, - the Rebbe that is <grin>.
|> 
This half of the post relates to the second question:
to what extent do Messianic churches/shuls care about
preserving Judaism as opposed to simply increasing
the number of Jesus-believing Jews?

Your remark that the question of intermarriage and
the Jewish status of spouses and children is
merely an esoteric detail which is only of concern
to Rabbis seems pretty convincing evidence
of the priority your Messianic church gives
to preservation of Judaism.

[You also misrepresent the Reform rule of patrilineal
descent --- children of a Jewish father and a non-Jewish
mother are *not* considered Jewish unless they
are raised Jewish and specifically identify with
Judaism.  It would be clearer (though no more
acceptable to Orthodox Jews) if the rule were
viewed as a liberalized rule for conversion of
the children than as an inheritance rule.]

-- 
Rob Strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641
IBM Research, 30 Saw Mill River Road, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598