HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: leino@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Antti Leino)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: Coffey cups (one more try)
Date: 14 Sep 92 08:32:29 GMT
Organization: Keisarillinen Aleksanterin-Yliopisto

In article <1992Sep14.024013.13726@samba.oit.unc.edu> Roxanne.Coffey@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Roxanne Coffey) writes:

>In brief (and please pardon any incorrect terminology) what I want to
>know is whether the Coffey family crest could possibly have what 
>appears to be 3 coffee cups on it? (Ignore for now the question of
>whether we are the armegeneous (sp?) branch)  I thought most, if not
>all crests had animals on them (whether real or fictional) or perhaps
>a religious symbol (cross).  

Yes, coffee cups would be quite possible, especially on the arms of
someone named Coffey.  Basically, a heraldic charge can be anything that
can be drawn simply enough that you can recognize it at a distance of a
few hundred feet.  Thus a lion and a cross are not the only appropriate
charges -- for instance a compass rose, a millrind (the iron centerpiece
of a millstone) and even a DNA double helix have been used. 

By the way, are the coffee cups really the crest (ie. the things that
are carried on top of the helmet) or are they painted on the shield?

>Are the "coffee cups" someone's idea of a cute pun?  Opinions?

Quite possibly; for some reason, a lot of people who are interested in
heraldry also appreciate puns.  In heraldry, this kind of arms are
called canting. 

-- 
Antti Leino                                     "The notion of code-switching 
University of Helsinki Computing Centre          presupposes that there are 
Antti.Leino@Helsinki.FI                          codes to switch."
From: david@john-littlejohn.ics.uci.edu (David Harnick-Shapiro)
Subject: Re: Last Names and Heraldry (was Re: Computerized Family Crests)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Organization: UC Irvine Department of ICS
Date: 9 Sep 92 20:16:05 GMT

In <BuBCr7.41H@apollo.hp.com> betsyp@apollo.hp.com (Betsy Perry) writes:

>P.S.  The historical solution for rich Americans who wanted to be
>armigerous was to find a British ancestor, then to arrange for
>that ancestor *and all his descendants* to be granted a coat of
>arms.  The British College of Arms finally banned [retro-active grants],
>saying roughly "If the American government wants its nationals
>to bear heraldic achievements, it can set up its own College
>to oversee them."  So far, Congress hasn't obliged.

Maybe we could go to Canada?  ;-)

I hadn't heard of that decision, and would like to learn more.
Do you know of any articles with more information on the CoA's ban?

--------
           David Harnick-Shapiro      Internet: david@ics.uci.edu
Information and Computer Science      UUCP: ...!{ucbvax,zardoz}!ucivax!david
University of California, Irvine      BITNet: DBSHAPIR@UCI
From: bruce@supr.scm.liv.ac.uk (Bruce Stephens)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: Computerized Family Crests
Date: 14 Sep 92 11:05:50 GMT
	<1992Sep9.121729.13074@relay.nswc.navy.mil>
	<1992Sep11.015619.5882@vela.acs.oakland.edu>
Organization: Centre for Mathematical Software Research, Univ. Liverpool, UK

>>>>> On 11 Sep 92 01:56:19 GMT, atterlep@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Montgomery J. Moose) said:

>   The cost was recently quoted as #1650.  More importantly, isn't it
> necessary to have been granted nobility in order to register arms in
> England?  Or can anyone go and get a coat of arms if they have the money?

As far as I remember, anybody can.  It may well be necessary to be
English (or possibly British).  I'm fairly sure, now I think about it,
because my father was quite keen on the idea, being a heraldry buff,
and he's certainly not been granted nobility.  (He hasn't done it yet
bacause there always seems to be something better to do with the
money!)  

The granting isn't automatic, you have to have a sensible design
sufficiently different from all others, and I think there are
conditions on how it is presented, so it's best to get advice before
wandering up with your money.

--
Bruce Stephens.  Centre for Mathematical Software Research, Liverpool Univ.
Internet: bruce@uxb.liv.ac.uk     JANET: bruce@uk.ac.liv.uxb
From: hamm@weejordy.physics.mun.ca (Craig Hamm)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Need help with family crest
Date: 9 Sep 92 01:33:57 GMT
Organization: Ocean Sciences Centre


	I have the 'supposed' emblem of the 'craig' name, but am not
	sure if it is the real one.  I would also like to verify the 
	Craig tartan, and get any other history as well.

	I have checked my university library fairly thoroughly, but
	have found nothing.  Suggestions for source material 
	welcomed!
-- 
  
    Craig Hamm, Memorial University, | I don't think the letters which appear
    Newfoundland                     | on your letters page are genuine. I 
    DoD #1500,                       | think you just make them all up.  In
    81 Maxim 650                     | fact you probably made this one up
    ------------                     | too.  -J. Clark, Rotherham (Viz comics)
From: david@john-littlejohn.ics.uci.edu (David Harnick-Shapiro)
Subject: Canadian Heraldry Society
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Organization: UC Irvine Department of ICS
Date: 15 Sep 92 00:06:32 GMT

In light of Canada's recent creation of an indepent Chief Herald
(I think that's his title), I'd think the Canadian heraldry-fanciers
association would be hopping.  I've tried to contact them, at several
different addresses, but none of my pleas has generated a response.

Any happy members of the Canadian heraldry society out there on the
net?  Any disgruntled members, for that matter?  Anyone totally
uninvolved, who just happens to know how to contact them?  :-)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: habura@vccnw05.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura)
Subject: Re: M[a]cDonald
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 12:46:14 GMT

The arms (not the crest) of MacDonald of the Isles are "Or, a lymphad sable,
pennoned gules". (A lymphad is an old-style ship, with a single mast, high
castles, and oars.) This info is taken from a poster I have (prepared by the
Albany Herald and Unicorn Pursuivant of Scotland). I'm sure there are other
MacDonald clans/septs; I just don't know what their armory is.

Andrea Habura

Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: staats@athena.mit.edu (Dick)
Subject: Re: What is purpose of this group?
Keywords: charter, purpose
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 21:19:04 GMT

Tom,

	Good post!

	Rich
From: klaus@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: Last Names and Heraldry (was Re: Computerized Family Crests)
Date: 10 Sep 92 08:40:13 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, U of Copenhagen

velde@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Francois R. Velde) writes:

>In article <BuBCr7.41H@apollo.hp.com> betsyp@apollo.hp.com (Betsy Perry) writes:
>>
>>P.P.S.  Technically, only the eldest surviving son of the  first son
>>of the first son... has the right to bear the family coat of arms as
>>is;  everybody else adds little dingies called "marks of cadence" to
>>demonstrate that they're not the head of the family.

>That's a pretty rigorous system, followed by royal and princely families,
>and more commonly in England, but not observed everywhere.  At least in
>France, the coats of arms can be born by all male members: otherwise,
>you'd get tens of thousands of blazons within a few generations, and it would
>defeat the purpoose.

>The title, on the other hand (earl, duke,...) can only be born by one
>member at a time: but that is distinct from the coat of arms. Correct me
>if I'm wrong.

The system described by BP exists only in England. In most of the world,
the rule is: if you want a coat of arms, draw one. While there are rules
(only certain colors allowed, etc) there is NO institution to enforce
them. There may be ways of getting exclusive rights to a family coat of
arms, but you will have to be creative. Forming an association that
that accepts only your relatives as members, and registering the arms
as a logo of that association might work.

The mark of cadency system is English, nothing like it exists outside
the UK (the Scotch system is even worse, BTW).

At least in this country, any son of a count is a count, any son of a
baron is a baron. We don't have dukes or earls.

Klaus O K
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Silly Blazoning Games
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 17:23:43 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Gretchen Miller wrote:

> The field is divided horizontally into three equal stripes.  In the
> middle of the top stripe is a three masted sailing ship sailing towards
> stage right, in the middle of the middle stripe is a plow, facing stage
> right, and in the bottom are three sheafs of wheat all in a horizontal
> row, my guess on blazoning is:
> 
> Azure, on a fess Or a plow vert, in chief a (whatever kind of ship it
> is) ship Or, and in base three sheafs of wheat.

A very good guess.  In SCA-standard blazonry, we would say "Azure, on a
fess between in chief a ship and in base three garbs Or a plow vert."

> What's the default direction for a sailing ship.  Should the ship be
> "ship facing to dexter Or".  Same question with the plow.

Almost all charges face to dexter by default; when a charge is in its
default orientation, that fact need not be blazoned.

> Finally, I know that if the wheat sheafs had been in chief, then the
> horizontal row would be their default position, but what about in base?
> Should it be "in base three sheafs of wheat fesswise"?

A sheaf of wheat is called "a garb".  Three charges in base are usually
drawn "two and one", but I don't think the difference in arrangement is
significant enough to be worth blazoning.  Of course, that all depends on
whose style of blazonry you want to use: SCA blazonry tends to focus on the
details which were significant to medieval heralds; modern English blazonry
(and most particularly 19th century English blazonry) tended to describe
the emblazon is meticulous detail, leaving no room for variation.  If you
wanted to specify the arrangement of the garbs, then you could say "three
garbs in fess".

(Note: "fesswise" and "in fess" are basically interchangable in English
blazonry; some authors distinguish them, but historical usage is
inconsistent.  In SCa blazonry, we distinguish them.  The first describes
the orientation of an individual charge; the second describes the
arrangement of a group of charges.  Thus "three garbs in fess" means that
each garb is in its default orientation (palewise), but that the three of
them are in a horizontal row.  "Three garbs bendwise" would mean that they
are each oriented diagonally, but the group is placed in the default
arrangement.)

===========================================================================
Josh Mittleman (mittle@watson.ibm.com)
J2-C28 T.J. Watson Research Center, PO Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes)
Subject: Re: Any Domestic Cats in crests?
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 18:48:44 GMT

In article <crystal.716227601@glia> crystal@glia.biostr.washington.edu (Crystal) writes:
>
>Odd question, I know...but I am a collector of domestic cat items, and it
>was suggested to me that there may be some in crests.  (Not tigers or lions
>rampant and sinister, but 'lil ol' home-loving pussy cats)  
>
>Is there such a beast in heraldry?
>
>Thank you...
>Crystal
>  ;>
>
The crest of the Scots Clan Chattan (the Clan of the Cat) has a
crouching cat as its crest. I also know of a heraldic position for a
domestic cat "herrissonent" = back arched, tail up and bottle-brushed,
mouth open in a hiss. I do not know of a specific device that uses this
position, though one must exist. If you look in a non-SCA Ordinary of
Arms (like John Papworth's An Ordinary of English Arms, Balfour or
Rennesse) under the heading Cat, or Beast, Cat, or its equivalent, you
might be rewarded.
   In fiction the crest of the Wimsey family (Of whom Lord Peter Wimsey,
the detective popularized by Dorothy Sayers is the most famous) is a
crouching cat.

Have Fun,
 
   Tom \|/
        0
(SCA Moniker: Lothar Gottfried von Katzenellenbogen -Whew! ;))

>


Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: SCAHRLDS echo?
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 17:08:30 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

> Is this an echo of the SCAHRLDS mail list?

No.  This is a newsgroups for general discussion of heraldry.  Questions
specific to the SCA should be directed to scahrlds.  (If someone is
compiling an FAQ, please include this Q&A.)

===========================================================================
Josh Mittleman (mittle@watson.ibm.com)
J2-C28 T.J. Watson Research Center, PO Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598
From: bruce@supr.scm.liv.ac.uk (Bruce Stephens)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: Computerized Family Crests
Date: 10 Sep 92 10:25:32 GMT
Organization: Centre for Mathematical Software Research, Univ. Liverpool, UK

What others have said is essentially correct: these people have a book
with surnames; they look up your surname and give you a crest
belonging to someone with the same surname.  The chances are extremely
high that you're not entitled to use that crest.  The service they're
providing is of no value beyond (minimal) entertainment value.

In England it is even illegal to bear false arms, so watch out!

A better thing to do, if you have the money, is to get your own design
granted to you by the College of Arms.  As far as I remember it only
costs of the order of #1000, but then you can legally use it, and pass
it on to your descendants.  (I don't have the details, so please don't
ask me for them!  Consult your local library.)
--
Bruce Stephens.  Centre for Mathematical Software Research, Liverpool Univ.
Internet: bruce@uxb.liv.ac.uk     JANET: bruce@uk.ac.liv.uxb
From: bpeters@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Brenda Peters)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Question about tracing roots....
Date: 10 Sep 92 16:53:16 GMT
Reply-To: bpeters@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Brenda Peters)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD


This may not be the proper forum to ask this  (is not, forgive me, and
point me to the correct news group)... but, here goes....

My mom is a Monroe from Virginia.  I really would like to trace the
family back to see if we are related to the president.  I read a book
about him and found that he had no male children that lived to adulthood.
So, it would have to be through his brother's line.....Any clues, references
to start with?    BTW  --  she's from Fishersville (between Waynesboro and
Staunton)....I know James Monroe (the pres., not my grandfather) was from 
the Shennandoah Valley in that proximity.....


Thankx for any help you can give.  Please do not clutter the net w/answers.
My email address is :  bpeters@oasys.dt.navy.mil   or   
cape@dtvms.dt.navy.mil

Thankx again.


				 brenda peters
				 david taylor model basin
				 bethesda, md
From: vader@meryl.csd.uu.se (]ke Eldberg)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: Question about a charge
Date: 14 Sep 92 01:56:31
Organization: University of Uppsala, Sweden
	<1992Sep13.205546.1267@nntp.hut.fi>
NNTP-Posting-Host: meryl.csd.uu.se
In-reply-to: c34657b@saha.hut.fi's message of Sun, 13 Sep 1992 20:55:46 GMT

A squirrel appears in the arms of Jens Nielson and of
Peder Larentsson, both of 15th century Sweden. The
squirrel is standing, or sitting -- it't hard to say
from the emblazon -- on its hind legs, and holds
something (an acorn?) in its forepaws, obviously 
about to eat it. "Sejant mangant"???

]ke Eldberg
From: jxm@cis.ksu.edu (John E McNett )
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: MacNaughton Clan
Date: 10 Sep 92 21:10:13 GMT
Organization: Kansas State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: cygnus.cis.ksu.edu

I was wondering if there was anyone out there who can trace there roots to the
MacNaughton clan.  The clan originated in western Scotland in the Inverary area
(I think).  Many members migrated to America.  There are many variations on the
spelling:  McNaughton, McNaught, McNutt, McNitt, McNett, McKnight, McKendrick,  are a few that I know of.

I would be interested if anyone knew what the crest is or any other history
 about the clan.               

J. Erick McNett

Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
From: rbv@cypress.com
Subject: Shreve/Sheriff arms
Reply-To: rbv@cypress.com
Organization: Cypress Semiconductor, San Jose, CA, USA
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 19:44:25 GMT

Would somebody please translate the following for me?  These were arms
granted to Lawrence Sheriff, founder of Rugby School, in 1559.  The
second is supposedly also the arms of Rugby.

1) Azure on a fess engrailed between three griffins' heads erased

2) a fleur de lis of the first enclosed by two roses gules

Thanks
Roger
From: debell@ERE.UMontreal.CA (De Bellefeuille Andre)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Rule Book (was Last Names and Heraldry and Computerized Family Crests)
Summary: Book on drawing rules for coat of arms
Date: 15 Sep 92 00:18:38 GMT
Distribution: rec.heraldry
Organization: Universite de Montreal

In article <1992Sep10.084013.21483@odin.diku.dk> klaus@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen) writes:
>
>In most of the world,
>the rule is: if you want a coat of arms, draw one. While there are rules
>(only certain colors allowed, etc) there is NO institution to enforce
>them. 
>
>Klaus O K

Is there a book stating these rules?  I'm really interested in drawing
one for myself since I don't know yet if my family already has one. (I'll
start researching after completing my master degree).  Which bring up
another question: Can the head of the family make changes to the CoA 
(maybe significant ones)?

Since I'm living in Canada, do we abide by the rules of England regarding
these matters (we are still officially English subjet for there is still
a "Lieutenant-Gouverneur" signing laws for Her Majesty) and what about
the ones (like me) who might have a "noble" French ancestry. 

Sorry for all those question but they've been piling up inside for a
long time.  Thanks for all your help (in advance ;-)

Disclaimer:  Sorry for my English, I'm not used writing with It.
             For canadians only, this discussion has nothing to do
             with our political crisis and what not intended as such.

Andre De Bellefeuille (or is it Andre de Bellefeuille ;-) )
The "de" stands for French nobility so untill I'm sure it's "De"
There might be Blue Blood from an guillotined ancestor running in my veins...
From: urcat@mcl.ucsb.edu (Eilidh Swan)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: swans on shields
Date: 11 Sep 92 07:16:34 GMT

Just a quick question, anyone know if there is any meaning 
attached to the use of a swan on a shield? (of course, asking
here may get me an answer *long* before I find it in any of
my books! :) ....  How early were swans used (if at all)?
What families (notable, certainly not asking for an exhaustive
list!) employ one or more?

Thanks in advance!  E-mail or postings appreciated.

Eilidh Swan
*********************************************************************
Cat McGlothlin  urcat@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu  'urcat'='you-are-cat'   "Oh!"

  >>Please Vote in November!!!  Vote out State of CA Incumbents!!<<
   >>>Let State Employees receive paychecks instead of IOU's!!!<<<
From: leino@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Antti Leino)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: Savoy and similar (was Re: Concepts of family and state heraldry)
Date: 12 Sep 92 22:05:44 GMT
Organization: Keisarillinen Aleksanterin-Yliopisto

In article <1992Sep12.194522.14092@nntp.hut.fi> tsahib@vipunen.hut.fi (Tero Juhani Heikkinen) writes:
>                                        Of these, at least the Danish flag has
>nothing whatsoever to do with Savoy, as it was given directly from Heaven to
>King Valdemar when he was on a crusade against the Estonians. 

And, in case everyone didn't guess it, this event happened in Tallinn
(originally Taani linn, City of the Danes).  So the Dannebrog and the
arms of Tallinn are actually the same.

>Btw, isn't Switzerland Gules a cross couped argent? (with short limbs)

Yes.

-- 
Antti Leino                                     "The notion of code-switching 
University of Helsinki Computing Centre          presupposes that there are 
Antti.Leino@Helsinki.FI                          codes to switch."
From: genetic+@pitt.edu (Dr. Dave)
Newsgroups: rec.heraldry
Subject: Re: Shreve/Sheriff arms
Date: 11 Sep 92 04:02:55 GMT
Organization: Department of Industrial Engineering

Thus spake rbv@cypress.com:

>Would somebody please translate the following for me?  These were arms
>granted to Lawrence Sheriff, founder of Rugby School, in 1559.  The
>second is supposedly also the arms of Rugby.

>1) Azure on a fess engrailed between three griffins' heads erased
>2) a fleur de lis of the first enclosed by two roses gules

This is only one blazon; the "1" and "2" are there as a sort of punctuation
to help you keep clear such facts as that the fleur-de-lis is on the fess.
(In snooty circles, blazons are not punctuated, which can make it a bit of
a trick to parse them successfully.)

What color are the griffins' heads supposed to be?  For that matter, what
color is the fess supposed to be?  Hint: it has to be either "argent" (silver)
or "or" (gold), since you're not allowed to put anything but a metal on a 
blue (or red or green or any other nonmetal) field.

Here's what I get:

Take a blue shield.  Put three griffins' heads on it, in an inverted triangle.
The griffins' heads should be drawn facing right, and with necks ending in
jagged cuts (horizontal).  [NB: the blazon given doesn't specify a tincture
for the griffins; is there a "default" color for griffins?]

Between the upper two and lower head, put a horizontal stripe across the whole
shield.  The color of this stripe ("fess") should appear after the word
"engrailed", but doesn't.  Scallop the edges of the stripe, so that it has
arcs of the surrounding blue cutting into it, like this:

	\_/\_/\_/
	 _  _  _ ...
	/ \/ \/ \

This is a "fess engrailed", and completes the first line of the blazon.

Now, on the fess, put a blue fleur-de-lis (French trefoil) between two red
roses.

Voila.

-- 
      David M. Tate      | From my dugout sleep I fell into the Game
 dtate@unix.cis.pitt.edu | And I crouched in the circle while my insides froze
 Randall 'Chico' Jarrell | One out from death, one hit from dreamt-of glory
"Death of a Pinch Hitter"| I woke to 'Strike One!' and the nightmare sliders...