HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bloc1469@ee.ee.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Advocacy? What do you want for the Amiga?
Date: 12 Jan 1993 03:05:10 GMT
Organization: Electrical Engineering Dept. University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.2.33

In article <1993Jan11.164351.19610@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA> tmc@spartan.ac.BrockU.CA (Tim Ciceran) writes:
>You can't get integration in a vacuum. Regardless of how effective AREXX can
>be used for IPC, the majority of end-users are not interested in programming
>macros so they can do simple operations like cutting and pasting objects
>between applications. By bundling an integrated productivity package with
>a consistent interface and level of functionality, many people could use
>the system right out of the box.

Unsatisfactory.  Simple operations like "cutting and pasting objects
between applications" is done with the clipboard, not ARexx.  If you
don't know how the clipboard works, ask, I'm sure I or someone else
can fill you in.  ARexx -IS- designed for IPC, and it's rather simple
to support.  If one is going to create an "integrated productivity"
package, then one should make each module separate, and give the user
pre-written arexx scripts which he must only "drag" and "drop" into
his Rexx: partition/drawer/whatever.  Advanced users could alter these
scripts to call their own applications, and not have to waste space on
your module if they don't like it.

And as to having a consistent interface, I'd advise the applications
programmer to go out and buy a Style Guide.

Greg


--
(: (: (: (: Have you overdosed on smileys today?  Why NOT!?! :) :) :) :)
(: "Our father, who art in Iowa, Hollow be thy head, Thy ideas run    :)
(:  Thy will be done, At Commodore as it is at Apple"  -Dan Barrett   :)
(: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: (: () :) :) :) Wubba, the Dark Angel :)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: dtaylor@garnet.acns.fsu.edu (Douglas Taylor)
Subject: Re: Byte's Amiga 4000 review...
Organization: Florida State University
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 93 19:05:37 GMT

In article <C0n57o.GDs@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> papresco@cantor.math.uwaterloo.ca (Paul Prescod) writes:
>In article <mbrown.100q@legend.akron.oh.us> mbrown@legend.akron.oh.us writes:
>>Actually with the Advent of OS/2, all the Things we do are new To you. 
>>C= has Never pushed the Amigas advantages into the Public mind, and 
>>that is were C= Screwed up. But if it wasn't for Commodore and the 
>>Amiga, Where do you truthfully think the IBM market would Be now? In 
>
>Give me a bfeak.  Let's not forget who wrote OS/2.  IBM.  THEY invented
>REXX.  THEY were multitasking before you were born.  So what in OS/2
>was "ripped off" of the Amiga?
>

 Wow - they invented REXX; I AM impressed!  Well, only slightly - as far as I
	can tell, REXX (or our variant, ARexx), has nothing to do with multi-
	tasking, or at least, is only an implementation thereof...

>
>>get a 486 with 2 megs of ram and HD controller for 350 bucks(the Amiga 
>>486 bridge board is around 1K) Compatibility problems?, not one hell 
>>of a whole lot from what I have Heard. The Brigde board is nice for 
>>some things though.
>>    <Mark
>
>Why, can you get a 68040 with 2MB of ram and a hd controller for
>$350.00?
>

 If he can, I want one; but that is not what he was saying - the rather obdurate
	IBM user before him said that he could get a computer comparable to the
	similar BridgeBoard for 1/3 the cost; it just so happens that the vortex
	BridgeBoard (486... something, don't like chips and letters...) costs
	about $1000 (give or take tax and merchant's take).  One third, even
	assuming that the BB is over $1000, should be roughly $350... 
-
/============================================================================\
| L. Douglas Taylor InterNet: dtaylor@garnet.acns.fsu.edu |    IMPORTANT:    |
|=========================================================|   This message   |
| Guildenstern: We cross our bridges when we come to them | has cost the Net |
|   and burn them behind us, with nothing to show for our | hundreds, if not |
|   progress except a memory of the smell of smoke, and a |    thousands,    |
|   presumption that once our eyes watered...             |    of dollars    |
|                                                         |     to send.     |
\============================================================================/
From: andy@cbmvax.commodore.com (Andy Finkel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: CBM mention on 12/11/92 Computer Chronicles
Date: 6 Jan 93 16:32:01 GMT
Reply-To: andy@cbmvax.commodore.com (Andy Finkel)
Organization: Flying Cat, Inc.

In article <1993Jan5.162612.22732@sol.ctr.columbia.edu> jerry@msi.com (Jerry Shekhel) writes:
>Gregory R Block (bloc1469@ee.ee.uwm.edu) wrote:
>Right, but if you try to cross over the boundaries of physical memory on
>a machine *without* VM, that machine will not only get down on its knees,
>it will get buried six feet underground.


Actually, most machines with real operating systems (by this I mean
operating systems that control the resources of the machine)
do not 'get buried siz feet underground' when asked for more 
physical memory than exists on the machine.  The OS will instead,
inform the application (or the user) depending on circumstances
that the request cannot be satisfied.  A requester may appear
to the user asking him/her to shut down other applications,
a message may be sent to all running applications asking
that they free up unneeded resources, the exact action can be
any of these.

Machines without real operating systems are the ones that routinely
choke when asked for too much physical memory, because they were
not designed for resource control.

>: Generally, it's a combination of both.  I use interactive
>: applications, and I _DEMAND_ real-time response.  After all, I'm not
>: running some god-forsaken X-windows server.  Click.  wait.  wait.
>: wait.  wait.  Oh, look, the window opened.  I want real-time response
>: from a system, and real-time systems should deliver it.  VM impedes
>: that, there's no way around it.
>:
>
>VM does not impede anything.  In fact, it can only show improved performance
>over a non-VM system with the same amount of RAM.

Look, I agree with you that VM is a good thing to add to an operating
system.  (If it can be shut down completely when the user doesn't
think he/she needs it, so much the better).

But VM has a negative performance impact.  For instance, 1) its non-trivial
to calculate a good working set.  (much less an optimal working
set).  Non-trivial things take CPU time.  2) There is additional
overhead every task switch, as the proper set of mmu tables
need to be loaded.  3) All memory accesses must go through the MMU;
on many processors going directly to physical memory is a cycle
faster.  4) DMA I/O operations get a lot more complicated, since
the MMU is usually processor side only.

As I said, I think VM is a good thing (and I wish people
would stop arguing against it!).  But you have to be aware
of its downside, as well, if you want to discuss it intelligently.

>| JERRY J. SHEKHEL  | Molecular Simulations Inc. | Time just fades the pages |

			andy

-- 
andy finkel		andy@cbmvax.commodore.com

"There are two kinds of fool.  One says, 'This is old, and therefore good.'
And one says, "This is new, and therefore better.'" - Dean Inge

Any expressed opinions are mine; but feel free to share.
I disclaim all responsibilities, all shapes, all sizes, all colors.
From: andy@cbmvax.commodore.com (Andy Finkel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Byte's Amiga 4000 review...
Date: 11 Jan 93 15:29:12 GMT
Reply-To: andy@cbmvax.commodore.com (Andy Finkel)
Organization: Flying Cat, Inc.

In article <C0np2J.69C@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> papresco@cantor.math.uwaterloo.ca (Paul Prescod) writes:
>>	THEY also invented IBM PC. THEY were singletasking before Amiga
>>	was born, and most of THEM still are :)
>>	BTW, REXX is from mainframe world, right? Its pretty far from
>>	microcomputers, which are the subject here.
>>
>
>Read my lips:  All IBM operating systems (or at least new ones) have
>REXX.  It is part of their SAA/CUA standards.  It is the equivalent of
>a "law" in a country...it has absolutely nothing to do with the Amiga.
>
>IBM was singletasking in 1981, when Apple was single tasking, before
>Commodore was single tasking etc.  The reason they didn't start out
>with a multitasking operating system is because with 64k of ram, you
>can't load two useful programs, plus a multitasking operating system.

You really should take a 'History of Computing' course, or read a book,
or something.  Multitasking operating systems do not require gobs
and gobs of RAM.  Guess how much ram early Unix required ?  Hell,
I was running a multitasking operating system on a 16K PDP-8/E in
1974 (it was multiuser, too :-) )


>
>As soon as multitasking was feasible (with the advent of the 286) IBM
>started work on OS/2, the multitasking OS for it.  The amiga was not an
>influence.


What do you base this 'knowledge' on ?  Have you met and talked
with the OS/2 designers about the Amiga ?  Or the OS/2 designers
at Microsoft (you did know that OS/2 began there, didn't you ?)
or are you simply making statements that you feel should
be true ?

			andy

BTW, IBM didn't make REXX part of their SAA 'just because', as you seem
to imply.  They did it because it is a good and useful language.
-- 
andy finkel		andy@cbmvax.commodore.com

"There are two kinds of fool.  One says, 'This is old, and therefore good.'
And one says, "This is new, and therefore better.'" - Dean Inge

Any expressed opinions are mine; but feel free to share.
I disclaim all responsibilities, all shapes, all sizes, all colors.
From: bruce@zuhause.MN.ORG (Bruce Albrecht)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re:  Amiga OS weaknesses and strengths
Distribution: world
Date: 8 Jan 93 20:00:34 CST
Organization: Society to Stamp Out Bogus Organizations

In article <C0GACp.FJq@news.iastate.edu> barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N. Barrett) writes:
>   Niceties give you functionality.  For instance, the Amiga lacks a clipboard
>with all of the 'niceties' of the Mac clipboard.  So you cannot cut and paste
>structured graphics or fonts on an Amiga with all of the ease and
>functionality that you can on a Mac.  This is entirely a 'surface' issue on
>both systems, and it interferes with functionality on the Amiga.

BZZZT!  Wrong again.  There may be a lack of clipboard by Amiga applications,
but it's not due to inadequacies with the operating system.  Many Amiga
applications have been adding support for the clipboard also.  Quoting from the
Devices Amiga ROM Kernel Reference Manual (RKM), 3rd Edition (AmigaDOS 2.0
version, page 38):

Data on the clipboard is self-identifying.  It must be a correct IFF
(Interchange File Format) file; the rest of this section refers to IFF
concepts... [discussion deleted]

A clipboard tool, which is an application that allows a workbench user to view
a clip, should understand the text (FTXT) and graphics (ILBM) form types.
Applications using the clipboard to export data should include at least one of
these types in a CAT CLIP so that their data can be represented in some form
for user feedback.

[end of quotation]

Further perusal of the IFF standards later in the Devices RKM, explain how to
specify font and size within the FTXT form type.  Of course, any application
with structured graphics could write to the clipboard with form type DR2D, and
you'd have structured graphics support.

I suppose your local Waldenbooks doesn't carry the RKMs, either, but you could
special order them, too.  While you're at it, if you really want to see clipboard
support in the applications you use, write or call the developer and ask for it.
Or sell your Amiga 500, buy a Mac, and stop posting to comp.sys.amiga.*.
--
bruce@zuhause.mn.org
Youth is wasted on the young.

Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: davidme@qdpii.comp.qdpi.oz.au (David Meiklejohn)
Subject: Re: Advocacy? What do you want for the Amiga?
Organization: Qld Dept Primary Industries
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 09:37:29 GMT

In article <C0K2p1.1HF@news.iastate.edu> barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N. Barrett) writes:
>
>   Here is what I would like to see:
>  
>   A quality 'works' package developed and bundled in Amiga packages.  'Works'
>packages have been developed before, but they have been junk.  Something needs
>to be developed with a decent word processor (something like Final Copy II
>with EPSF and DR2D graphic importing and CompuGraphic and PS Type 1 outline
>font support added), a quality database, a quality drawing package, a quality
>spreadsheet, and a quality communications package.  The whole package should be
>well integrated and the software should work seemlessly together.

No, thanks!  I don't know about you, but I use a computer with one of the best
multitasking OSs around.  Integrated packages on other platforms simulate the
ability to have several packages running together.  We don't need that.  I'd
much prefer to mix and match those "modules" I'm interested in, with the exact
set of features I require (and not more), from a number of vendors.  That's
what Amiga computing should be all about, not humungous "one package suits all"
IBM-style integrated packages.

Now, to get to where I want us to be, we do need better agreement among
developers as to clipboard support.  With clipboard notification, we shouldn't
need any sort of "HotLinks" standard in the OS.  We also need more standardised
ARexx interfaces, so that the user doesn't need to learn Arexx to put together
an apparently integrated suite of programs.

Try thinking like an Amigan, Marc!  We have the tools to go so far beyond
simple "integrated" packages...


>| Marc Barrett -MB-  |  email: barrett@iastate.edu


-- 
David Meiklejohn (davidme@qdpii.comp.qdpi.oz.au)
 - PC's, Unix, and networks by day, Amigas by night...
Currently residing in Mareeba, Far North Queensland, Australia
From: devasoft@cup.portal.com (David Michael Alves)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Does reading this group make you depressed? The story of a
Date: Wed,  6 Jan 93 13:45:30 PST
Organization: The Portal System (TM)

>>Sigh.  Here we go again.  Marc, do yourself a favor so you don't look like 
>>a fool and buy some Euro mags.  Read them carefully.

>   Where do I buy them?  I can't exactly go down to the local WaldenBooks and
>buy a European Amiga magazine.  How do I go about getting one of these 
>magazines from deep in the heart of the U.S.?

>---
>| Marc Barrett -MB-  |  email: barrett@iastate.edu
>--------------------------------------------------------------------

A lot of mail order places carry them like:

Safe Harbor 800-544-6599
Amigaman/Computer Basics 800-258-0533
Sideline Software 800-888-9273

David Alves
Devasoft
devasoft@cup.portal.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: mikeh@starnine.com (Mike Haas)
Subject: Re: More Amiga OS weaknesses and strengths
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 01:49:13 GMT
Organization: StarNine Technologies, Inc.

>In article <C0CFro.MuE@news.iastate.edu> barrett@iastate.edu (Marc N. Barrett) writes:
>
>   Another feature that is totally broken on the Amiga is launching of 
>applications by double-clicking a project.  On the Macintosh, when you
>double-click a project, the 'creator' application is always found and launched
>and the project is loaded, no matter where the creator application is located
>on the disk.  On the Amiga, tooltypes are almost always hard-coded.  There 
>is almost no flexibility to the way the Amiga does it.       

HA HA HA.  You cite one of the most broken things on the mac.

There is no control in the mac as to which specific program will launch.

I work with an appleshare system that has old versions of development
systems & tools saved away on remote volumes, and when these are mounted
on my desktop, double-clicking documents will half-the-time launch these
old unwanted beasts!

There is NO WAY to force the mac to USE MY LOCAL APPLICATION,,, it will
often insist on launching the wrong one.

My company uses the apple installer in it's release disks...
The installer has several old versions that won't work.
I routinely cannot double-click on the installer script document,
because it will launch the wrong executable (which crashes).

Keep in mind that the right installer program is right there... IN THE SAME
FOLDER AS THE SCRIPT I'M DOUBLE-CLICKING ON!


HERE's ANOTHER example of broken double-clicking on the mac.

Aliases.  To get them to work reliably, the window containing the
parent application must be open on the desktop.  If not, you will often get
the ol' "Can't find parent application" dialog...

It just don't woik!


So let's reword your statement to that which is true, Mark...

>   Another feature that is totally broken on the Mac is launching of 
>applications by double-clicking 


Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: abuhr@owlnet.rice.edu (Aaron M. Buhr)
Subject: Re: To VM or not to VM?
Organization: Rice University
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 01:42:17 GMT

In article <1ifkmeINN9pj@uwm.edu> bloc1469@ee.ee.uwm.edu (Gregory R Block) writes:
>In article <C0Fwqu.AAM@rice.edu> abuhr@owlnet.rice.edu (Aaron M. Buhr) writes:
>>     I hope this proves enlightening. :)
>
>Incredibly.  Go out, buy GigaMem, use it.  VM has no place in a
>real-time operating system.  GigaMem works, and more importantly, you
>can limit it to specific tasks.

     My system can't find "ee.ee.uwm.edu", or I would have sent this via
email.  Since I am not an Amigaphile, nor do I own an Amiga, I don't
have any idea what GigaMem is.  Would you mind describing it for me?


Aaron Buhr
abuhr@owlnet.rice.edu
From: peterk@cbmger.de.so.commodore.com (Dr Peter Kittel Germany)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: HELP--AMIGA OR IBM PC CLONE?
Date: 11 Jan 93 15:26:50 GMT
Reply-To: peterk@cbmger.de.so.commodore.com (Dr Peter Kittel Germany)
Organization: Commodore Germany

In article <JKH.93Jan10020832@whisker.lotus.ie> jkh@whisker.lotus.ie (Jordan K. Hubbard) writes:
>
>	people like Bill Gates have spoken about in the future users being able to
>	put together their own applications, except that for an interapplication macro
>	language, he wanted to use BASIC!  :-)

Nice idea, I love Basic!

>Hey, don't laugh.  Visual Basic isn't half bad, 

Yes, I heard good things about it, should really give it a try.

>Besides, for users, I'd much rather have a fairly easy language for
>doing interop stuff than trying to tell 1,000,000 Windows users something
>like "This is REXX - it's your friend!  You really want to learn REXX!"

Well, it *was* about interop stuff, I thought when I read the above statement
of Bill? So let me tell you: When I first saw an ARexx program(/script),
I definitely thought for me "ha, another Basic dialect!". They aren't
sooo different, or does anyone state that? (Well, *real* Basic is still
much faster (ca. 5x) than ARexx :-)

And you can say anything against Bill Gates, I still thank him for his
great Basic implementation for micros. He has done it a way I like it.
They could have done more clean versions, of course...

But when I compare the Basic interpreters of the Old Days by Bill & Co
against the compiler competitors from then (can you say UCSD Pascal?), 
it won and wins hands down. (Ok, and then came TurboPascal...)

-- 
Best regards, Dr. Peter Kittel  // E-Mail to \\  Only my personal opinions...
Commodore Frankfurt, Germany  \X/ {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!cbmger!peterk
Wer's nicht kann, soll's bleiben klopfen oder Steine lassen!
From: Dale_Adams@gateway.qm.apple.com (Dale Adams)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: Comdex/Quicktime released for the PC
Date: 5 Jan 93 13:34:32 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc.

In article <1992Dec31.232338.13654@mpifr-bonn.mpg.de> 
mlelstv@speckled.mpifr-bonn.mpg.de (Michael van Elst) writes:
> In <1992Dec31.175534.4724@pcnntp.apple.com> 
> Dale_Adams@gateway.qm.apple.com >(Dale Adams) writes:
> >No, it doesn't do better than the Quadra.  You're taking two entirely 
> >different situations and comparing them.  Show me an Amiga that can do 
> >640 x 480 8-bit video animations at 30 fps when updating every pixel on 
> >every frame.  This requires a memory bandwidth of over 9 MB/sec.  It's my 
> >understanding that the A4000's (the top of the line Amiga) bandwidth 
> >into chip memory is only 7 MB/sec, so it couldn't do this due to hardware 
> >limitations.
> 
> You forget that the Mac does not do that either (although it might be
> possible theoretically). The limit is currently not the bandwidth to
> video memory but the CPU that unpacks compressed video data.

Actually, the Mac (in this case a Quadra 950) does do that - in fact, not 
just in theory.  That was the whole point of my posts.  I run animations on 
the Q950 which have average data transfer rates to video memory of over 9 
MB/sec. using off-the-shelf software.  Note that this is the average, not 
peak, data xfer rate, and therefore allows every pixel of every frame of a 
640x480 8-bit animation to be changed at 30 fps.  Also, the software which 
does this is non-optimal in the sense that it does not use the 68040 
MOVE16 instruction to burst into VRAM - this would close to double the 
data xfer rate.  This is not using QuickTime, by the way.

> >Yes, what actually is the bandwidth into the A4000's video memory?  If 
> >it's not at least 9 MB/sec., the A4000 can't animate 640x480x8 at 30 
> >fps.
> 
> Fortunately, a 640x480 anim doesn't necessarily alter all pixels between
> frames.

No, it doesn't.  It would be a poor piece of software which did that if it 
were not necessary.  However, as was pointed out by another person in this 
thread, if you do have a situation where the entire frame must change (as 
in a movie scene change) then you must be able to tranfer a full frame of 
data in a single frame period or your animation will 'glitch'.

- Dale Adams
From: alan@xserver.uts.amdahl.com (Alan Bomberger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
Subject: Re: The Mac is not ideal (was Re: Amiga OS weaknesses and strengths)
Date: 6 Jan 93 21:40:00 GMT
Organization: Amdahl

I hate it when as soon as there is an inability to communicate
effectively with this limited medium you assume the other guy
is ignorant.  I am a commercial developer on both systems.

I was responding to explain the difference between the multitasking
capabilities and I think that I explained that Mac requires the
applications to participate.  You seem to have assumed that I am
a Mac person on the wrong board.  Why do you people treat everyone
so poorly.  Does the fact that an Amiga developer can find flaws
in the Amiga and positive features on the Mac offend you?   I 
do the same thing in reverse on the Mac BBs.  THose people are
not much more polite either.  If everyone weren't treated with the
same disrespect, I would assume it was me.  

System 7.0 is just Multifinder with a few bells.  The "tool" is
WaitNextEvent.   What printer facilities do you suggest that my
program use?  PRT:?  sure, now change the printer font to
Times 12 point.. Oh you have to know how the printer works? QED!

How do you mix text and graphics?  Screen dump?  Nice high resolution
for text isn't it?

  
-- 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: Hamish.Macdonald@bnr.ca (Hamish Macdonald)
Subject: Re: tcl on the Amiga [was Re: Byte's Amiga 4000 review...]
Organization: Bell Northern Research
	<1993Jan10.164112.9102@ra.msstate.edu>
	<C0nnDn.3ML@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu>
	<1993Jan10.224326.24838@ra.msstate.edu>
	<EMCOOP.93Jan10190216@bcars148.bnr.ca>
	<JKH.93Jan10020221@whisker.lotus.ie>
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 93 19:56:06 GMT

>>>>> On Sun, 10 Jan 1993 02:02:21 GMT,
>>>>> In message <JKH.93Jan10020221@whisker.lotus.ie>,
>>>>> jkh@whisker.lotus.ie (Jordan K. Hubbard) wrote:

Jordan> [...]  I think porting tcl to the Amiga would be a Very Good
Jordan> Thing indeed - especially if enough intuition interface was
Jordan> provided to give something similar in power to tk.

I could have sworn that TCL had been ported by Karl Lehenbauer.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy