From: arron@waikato.ac.nz
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: A deep bit of flame bait (long)
Date: 17 Dec 92 15:12:06 +1300
Organization: University of Waikato, Hamilton, New Zealand

>> It seems to me that a lot of you readers in ...

> I disagree, and I'm actually a little offended that you think that is the
> motivation behind most of these posts. On the incredibly rare occasions I post
> to this list, it isn't because I have some strange urge to raise the hackles on
> a few gentiles. Honestly, I've got better things to do with my time. It's
> because (usually) I've read something I vehemently disagree with and feel
> compelled to respond to (as is the case now). If it sounds smart-alecky to you,
> I apologize. Write it off to anger at being treated like a child.
> 

Neither most ... nor am I speaking to you yourself. I am glad that you only
respond to things you find relevant to you. It shows a bit of thought !!

> I'm not quite sure what you're suggesting. The way babies learn why they should
> eat, or what is good or not for them, is through a combination of experience
> and informal lessons in basic biology - there seems to be considerable evidence
> that babies know what food is good for them before being told (no, I don't
> remember the articles off hand). But, assuming that your analogy likens us to
> theological "babies", are you seriously proposing that you know what's best for
> us because you have some form of experience that we lack? I find that logic
> specious at best: if you are speaking in the specific case, there are people
> older than you who have rejected Christianity. If you mean in the general
> sense, then remember that Christianity as a religion is in fact much younger
> than most of the widespread religions of the world.
> 
> And don't beg off that argument by saying "It's not _my_ experience that's
> superior to yours. It's _Christ's_." The logic is circular: it turns into a
> "This religion is right because God says so" argument.

What I am saying is that babies don't have text books and scientific
explanations for why they get hungry, they just do. There are many parts to God
that can not be explained, they just are !!! These things require experience,
and there is no stopping ANYONE from having that experience. 

>>  you have to give it a go before you can really experience it.
>
> This _really_ confuses me. If "you have to give it a go before you can really
> experience it," does that mean that _after_ you've converted, you become a
> believer? I was under the impression that belief was a prerequisite to
> conversion. And as far as pride is concerned, I don't think you have anything
> to worry about. You're no more capable of "making" me into a Christian than I
> am of "making" you into an ice cream cone.

No ... of course not. It just means that if you beleive, then God will give you
experiences that support your faith. But you can't say there is no substance to
the claims of Christianity if you don't seriously ask God to come into your
life and reveal the truth (divine revelation being an exception to this rule.
eg. Saul's conversion in the 'Acts of the Apsotles').

You probably are a LOT MORE capable of making me into an ice cream cone
(depends on what flavour is acceptable) than I am of making you a Christian,
but I believe there is no limit to the power of the Holy Spirit to change you.
   
> Sorry that you think that I resent your caring about me. It's your
> holier-than-thou attitude I resent. And I hope that it's not to late to lose
> that.

I am not holier than you, I call Christ the Holy One ... but according to my
faith I will not see those who aren't Christians in heaven, and I would like
to (hey ... I like meeting people). And more than a few comments in this group
have talked about these Christians who want to convert the world, in an
unpleasant vein, and to me that's a sad thing as my motive is care. If you
do'nt mind the fact I care about your future ... then great, no reason for any
arguments.

Have a great day ... God bless ... Arron.

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from:arron@waikato.ac.nz			Arron Scott
 						University of Waikato
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Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc