HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: zoo@cygnus.com (david d 'zoo' zuhn)
Newsgroups: gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: harmful effects of gnu software
Date: 24 Jan 93 00:30:07 GMT
	<1993Jan22.222424.24191@klaava.Helsinki.FI>
	<1993Jan23.081203.25955@samba.oit.unc.edu>
	<1993Jan23.205326.24479@klaava.Helsinki.FI>
Distribution: gnu
Organization: Cygnus Support -- +1 415 903 1434
In-reply-to: lukka@klaava.Helsinki.FI's message of Sat, 23 Jan 1993 20:53:26 GMT


   >If the consumer (you for example) demands it, it will happen. Thats what the
   >market is all about. ;)

   Market? With FREE software? Please, explain what the 'market' has to do with
   free software? It's creators are not affected by the market, they make what
   they see fit. 

Sure.  Most of the work done at Cygnus has been done because someone paid
us to do it.  That sounds like a market drive to me.  This work is all
free, because that also has been a market demand.  Our customers want
support for various features, and in some cases, they specifically want it
available in releases that everyone can get.  

Almost every new CPU to come out in the last few years has a port of GCC to
that chip.  In many cases, the port was funded by either the designers or
the manufacturers of the chip.  It's seen as a competitive requirement
these day.  "GCC doesn't support the FOO?  What good is it?"  This logic
doesn't completely hold water, especially in the smaller micro-controller
worlds (gcc on the 8051?  ouch!).  But in the higher-end CPU's (>=32bit),
there definitely is a market drive for gcc.

It's true that the applications market for free software is low (almost
non-existent).  The reasons for this have been hashed out many times
before, so I won't go into them now.  But I think it's likely that we'll
start to see changes here.  Users are asking for freedom, and companies
that provide the source code are providing the highest level of freedom
that their customers demand.

Free software is a relative newcomer to the marketplace.  Scarcity
economics has been the rule of the day, because up until recently creating
a product has meant a per-unit actual cost (raw materials, labor time,
etc).  

Information (and software is in this realm) has different economics.  How
much does this program cost?  $10 for the tape that it is on?  $50 for the
tape and the time needed to package it?  $10000 for the time needed to
develop the software that it contains?  

The world is just now recognizing that the old ways of dealing with
physical commodities don't translate wonderfully for informational
commodities.  

   Or do you mean that consumers start demanding companies to write free software?
   Please convince USL not to sue UCB and I will believe you.

If you think that this specific single example will prove or disprove the
proposition that customers are demanding software freedom, I encourage you
to open your horizons.  

  david d 'zoo' zuhn |    
    cygnus support   |    And if you're never lost, how can you be found?     
    zoo@cygnus.com   |
From: fields@pacvax.UUCP (Daniel A. Fields)
Newsgroups: gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Cygnus gcc and loadable modules Solaris 2.1
Keywords: Cygnus gcc and loadable modules Solaris 2.1
Date: 26 Jan 93 12:50:34 GMT
Organization: Pacer Software Inc., Westborough, MA USA

When I compile a pushable module with the SPARCcompiler I am able to
load the module with no problem.  Compile the thing with the Cygnus gcc
The kernel panics when it is trying to relocate the object.  Objects
produced from both compiler are "ELF 32-bit MSB relocatable SPARC
Version 1".  What the deal ?


Dan Fields
Pacer Software, Inc.
1900 West Park Drive,
Suite 280
Westborough, Ma. 01581
From: smedley@hardy.u.washington.edu (William Warner)
Newsgroups: gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: gnu symbolic math?
Date: 23 Jan 1993 05:44:27 GMT
Organization: University of Washington
NNTP-Posting-Host: hardy.u.washington.edu
Keywords: "poor man's Mathematica"

I read some time ago about a gnu package billed as "the poor man's
Mathematica". It was called calc, I think. How much symbolic
manipulation can this package perform? What's the shortest route
to the source code?

	Bill Warner
	smedley@u.washington.edu

-- 
==============================================================================
smedley@u.washington.edu | Nothing can satisfy but what confounds
William Warner		 | Nothing but what astonishes is true. - E. Young
==============================================================================
From: jbuck@forney.berkeley.edu (Joe Buck)
Newsgroups: gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: Cygnus gcc and loadable modules Solaris 2.1
Date: 26 Jan 1993 19:15:43 GMT
Organization: U. C. Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: forney.berkeley.edu
Keywords: Cygnus gcc and loadable modules Solaris 2.1

In article <1843@pacvax.UUCP> fields@pacvax.UUCP (Daniel A. Fields) writes:
>When I compile a pushable module with the SPARCcompiler I am able to
>load the module with no problem.  Compile the thing with the Cygnus gcc
>The kernel panics when it is trying to relocate the object.  Objects
>produced from both compiler are "ELF 32-bit MSB relocatable SPARC
>Version 1".  What the deal ?

Kind of an odd group to post this question to, but I'll take a shot
at an answer anyway (gnu.gcc.help would have been better).

It's possible that the problem has to do with a disagreement between
your code and the kernel as to how structs are passed; by default,
gcc uses an incompatible method.  If this is the problem, you could
try using -fpcc-struct-return.  From the GCC manual:

`-fpcc-struct-return'
     Use the same convention for returning `struct' and `union' values
     that is used by the usual C compiler on your system.  This
     convention is less efficient for small structures, and on many
     machines it fails to be reentrant; but it has the advantage of
     allowing intercallability between GNU CC-compiled code and
     PCC-compiled code

(Sun's compiler is not pcc-based, but the flag still has this name).




--
Joe Buck	jbuck@ohm.berkeley.edu
From: gbarnet@uswnvg.com (Gary Barnette)
Newsgroups: gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: How/Where to get Software and FAQ?
Date: 22 Jan 93 01:02:50 GMT
Organization: U S WEST NewVector Group, Inc.
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5


I am new to GNU software. Will someone please tell me how
to obtain it and find out what it available and what the
software does. I see discussion about packages but have no
idea what the command/application is supposed to do. If there
is an FAQ, I'm sure that would help quite a bit.

Thank you,

Gary Barnette
US West NewVector, Inc.
gbarnet@uswnvg.com
Newsgroups: gnu.misc.discuss
From: sim@mdtf14.fnal.gov (Jim Sim)
Subject: gnu ar?
Organization: Fermilab, Batavia, IL
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 18:16:28 GMT

Is there a gnu version of ar?  If so, can it be configured to handle archive 
member file names that are longer than 16 characters? 

Thanks
Newsgroups: gnu.misc.discuss,comp.sys.hp
From: peltz@cerl.uiuc.edu (Steve Peltz)
Subject: Re: HP debug info and the FSF (was: Attaching gdb to a running process on an HP)
Organization: Computer Based Education Research Lab - University of Illinois
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 20:07:03 GMT

In article <FRANL.93Jan27115049@draco.centerline.com> franl@centerline.com (Fran Litterio) writes:
>I thought that HP was refusing to "free" its debugger symbol table
>format (specifically the header file that defines all of the debugger
>symbol data structures).  That would mean no Gnu product can read or
>write HP debug info, because the FSF won't use code that isn't free,
>and because HP won't let their debug info format be given away under
>the FSF Copyleft.

Assuming the header files are available on any HP systems that you'd want
to use it on, there wouldn't be any problem. Remember the GPL clause that
excepts libraries and header files that are normally distributed with
the operating system and compiler (I may be misquoting slightly, but
I'm sure I have the general intent).
-- 
Steve Peltz
Internet: peltz@cerl.uiuc.edu	PLATO/NovaNET: peltz/s/cerl
From: jbuck@forney.berkeley.edu (Joe Buck)
Newsgroups: gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: Re: harmful effects of gnu software II
Date: 25 Jan 93 19:43:13 GMT
Organization: U. C. Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: forney.berkeley.edu

In article <C1CD82.4Gt@news2.cis.umn.edu> tyrell@seaotter.micro.umn.edu (john drexler) writes:
>I was expecting all negative comments when I posted here (after all, the
>typical reaction when one's cherished beliefs are threatened is hostility and
>shortsightedness).

Well, it appears to me that cherished beliefs are being challenged on both
sides.  The anti-GNU comments appear to be coming, in part, from a couple
of people (like you) whose cherished beliefs included the belief that it
would always be possible to make a lucrative living by selling proprietary
software, and that what's bugging you is that this cherished belief of
YOURS is being challenged.  Now, I believe that proprietary software will
be around for a very long time, it's just that the price of entry for the
entrepreneur is being raised: if you want to charge money you'll need to
do something a lot better than you used to be able to get away with.

>If you don't believe this, mail me a message saying that you will pay
>me $700 dollars for a'slightly better compiler'that I would be willing to
>write.
>If I get enough responses (and $350 in advance-- because hell, I don't believe
>you) I will write it.

Sorry, this demonstrates nothing.  I mean, who the hell are you?  If, say,
Preston Briggs made a similar offer I'll bet he could get plenty of
funding (he's one of those people who has demonstrated that he knows what
he is talking about in the area of compilers).  But you're just another
flamer.  Why should I think you have the talent to write a better compiler
than gcc?  What are your credentials?  Have you written a compiler before,
other than a student project?  Are you published in the compiler
literature?

Now, I'm not going to tell you that GNUtopia, if it ever arises, will
be benificial to all.  Software types will make less money, at least
the average ones.  But if you want to be an entrepreneur, you're going
to have to learn to survive in the new environment.  Do you really think
that free software is going to go away because everyone will read your
message, bop themselves on the forehead, and say "WHAT were we thinking?"
and go back to doing proprietary work only?



--
Joe Buck	jbuck@ohm.berkeley.edu
From: eks@vki68.aar-vki.DK (Eigil Krogh Sorensen)
Newsgroups: gnu.misc.discuss
Subject: groff-1.06 texinfo/documentation wanted.
Date: 21 Jan 1993 17:25:08 -0500
Organization: GNUs Not Usenet
Distribution: gnu
Reply-To: eks@aar-vki.dk


Is texinfo, info or other types of documentation files awailable
for groff 1.06 somewhere where I can reach them with ftp ?

The man files following groff-1.06 refers to the UNIX troff man pages.

My system is Motorola sysV68 R3 and has no UNIX troff, and thus no
man pages.

A complete description of what groff can would be very wellcome.


Thanx,

Eigil Krogh Sorensen


eks@aar-vki.dk
Xref: sparky gnu.misc.discuss:4659 comp.sys.hp:15342
From: franl@centerline.com (Fran Litterio)
Newsgroups: gnu.misc.discuss,comp.sys.hp
Subject: HP debug info and the FSF (was: Attaching gdb to a running process on an HP)
Date: 27 Jan 93 11:50:49
Organization: CenterLine Software R&D
	<1993Jan23.200540.10828@Princeton.EDU>
	<1993Jan24.205213.14915@bmerh85.bnr.ca>
	<HUTTAR.93Jan25164454@hp750.itg.ti.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 140.239.3.116
In-reply-to: huttar@hp750.itg.ti.com's message of Mon, 25 Jan 1993 16:44:54 GMT

huttar@hp750.itg.ti.com (Lars Huttar) writes:

> Hamish.Macdonald@bnr.ca (Hamish Macdonald) writes:

> > 1) Get gcc to understand and insert HPUX debugging information into
> >    the object files it creates.  Also get gdb to understand and 
> >    retrieve HPUX debugging information from the executable.  To my
> >    knowledge, no-one has done this for a the 680x0 HP machines.  The
> >    folks at UUtah may have done this for the PA HP machines.

> Yes, you can get a modified gcc-2.3.3.u3 for PA HP's from
> jaugar.utah.edu:/dist.
> I just downloaded hpuxbin.tar.Z, which contained the executables
> for gcc, gdb, etc. that worked (with symbolic debugging & all)
> without modification.

I thought that HP was refusing to "free" its debugger symbol table
format (specifically the header file that defines all of the debugger
symbol data structures).  That would mean no Gnu product can read or
write HP debug info, because the FSF won't use code that isn't free,
and because HP won't let their debug info format be given away under
the FSF Copyleft.  This seems contrary to what Lars writes above.

Which is it: Do gcc and gdb understand HP debug info or don't they?

I too have heard about work at the University of Utah to teach gcc/gdb
about HP debug info, but I have also heard that HP has effectively
killed that work by refusing to free the necessary header file.
--
franl@centerline.com         "So what we've decided to do is set you up in
uunet!centerline!franl        Cicely, situated in an area that we Alaskans
617-498-3255 (USA)            refer to as The Alaskan Riviera."
PGP 2.0 public key available.
From: leisner@wrc.xerox.COM ( Marty Leisner)
Newsgroups: gnu.gdb.bug
Subject: Is this supposed to work?
Date: 25 Jan 1993 20:29:39 -0500
Organization: Xerox
Distribution: gnu
Reply-To: leisner@eso.mc.xerox.com

This just seems to do next on breakpoint 2, instead of the whole sequence...

Am I missing something or is the behavior wrong?

I'm using gdb 4.7 on sunos 4.1.3

(gdb) info break
Num Type           Disp Enb Address    What
1   breakpoint     keep y   0x00002300 in set_selector at 8086regs.h:165
        stop only if seg == CS_SEG && value == 0x5fc0
        p regs.cs
        p regs.ip
2   breakpoint     keep y   0x00009a14 in emulate_instruction at 8086engine.c:2583
        next
        print regs.ip
        print regs.cs
        cont



--
marty
leisner.henr801c@xerox.com  leisner@eso.mc.xerox.com
Member of the League for Programming Freedom
From: johnh@ficus.cs.ucla.edu (John Heidemann)
Newsgroups: gnu.gdb.bug
Subject: source-level kernel debugger for SunOS 4.1 available
Date: 26 Jan 1993 21:50:49 -0500
Organization: UCLA, Computer Science Department
Distribution: gnu

A source-level kernel debugger for SunOS 4.1.1 is now available for
anonymous ftp from ftp.cs.ucla.edu as pub/ficus/kgdb.1.3.shar.Z.  This
debugger is based on gdb remote debugging capabilities and SunOS' kadb.

Installation requires SunOS 4.1 kernel source code and gdb-4.7.  This
is a master/slave debugger requiring two sparcstations connected by a
serial cable.

Please let me know if you find this useful.

   -John Heidemann
    UCLA Ficus Project
From: cdurst@aecmail.PRime.COM (Charles Durst {x6163})
Newsgroups: gnu.gdb.bug
Subject: GDB on Ultrix with DEC C++
Date: 22 Jan 1993 21:46:54 -0500
Organization: GNUs Not Usenet
Distribution: gnu

I am trying to get GDB 4.7 to work on Ultrix 4.2a/4.3 with the object files
produced by the DEC C++ compiler.

I have already made several fixes to prevent GDB from crashing when it
sees symbol types that it wasn't expecting, and I'm trying now to get
it to understand DEC/MIPS' extensions to COFF format to store C++ symbol
information (e.g. Classes, references, etc.).

1) Is there anyone else currently working on GDB on MIPS/Ultrix that may have
a more recent version of "mipsread.c" that I should be changing?

2) What should I do about changes that need to be made to "symconst.h" to
#define the new symbol types, etc.?  The Ultrix version of that file
doesn't have them either at this point.

3) We have also found that when you link a REALLY BIG program on Ultrix,
the loader can end up mangling the symbol table information because it is
not expecting that any program might have more than 32767 symbols.  I have
some fixes for this problem as well (allowing GDB to read the mangled
symbol tables as if they were OK), but they are rather ugly.  What should I
do with them?

Basically, is there anyone else there I should be talking to?

					Charles


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Charles Durst				cdurst@aecmail.prime.com
Computervision				cdurst@cvbnet.prime.com

NOT playing the Lottery only slightly reduces your chances of winning.
From: ameres@ithaca.cat.rpi.edu (Eric Ameres)
Newsgroups: gnu.gdb.bug
Subject: nm.h not included in inftarg.c
Date: 25 Jan 1993 21:15:30 -0500
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY
Distribution: gnu

After finding that We couldn't attach to running processes we found
the following code was being called in inftarg.c:

#ifndef ATTACH_DETACH
  error ("Can't attach to a process on this machine.");
#else
  pid = atoi (args);

  if (pid == getpid())          /* Trying to masturbate? */
    error ("I refuse to debug myself!");

  if (from_tty)
    {
      exec_file = (char *) get_exec_file (0);

      if (exec_file)
        printf ("Attaching program `%s', pid %d\n", exec_file, pid);
      else
        printf ("Attaching pid %d\n", pid);

      fflush (stdout);
    }

  attach (pid);
  inferior_pid = pid;
  push_target (&child_ops);
#endif  /* ATTACH_DETACH */

The strange part is that ATTACH_DETACH is defined in nm.h.  By adding
#include "nm.h", attaching works just fine.  By the way we're using
this on SparcStations using SunOs 4.1.1.

Anybody encounter the same thing?

Eric.
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Ameres,  Software Engineer                 ameres@cat.rpi.edu
New York State Center for Advanced Technology in Automation & Robotics
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute - CII 8313, Troy, NY 12180-3590
From: skay@cleo.read.tasc.com (Scott Kay)
Newsgroups: gnu.gdb.bug
Subject: calling member functions....(gcc-2.2.2,gdb-4.7,sun4)
Date: 25 Jan 1993 21:13:36 -0500
Organization: GNUs Not Usenet
Distribution: gnu

Hi,

>> When trying to call a member function in gcc-2.2.2, gdb-4.7 (on a sun4)
>> replies systematically as in the folloing example:

>> (gdb) print f.y0(3,2)
>> Structure has no component named y0.

>> Please, tell me that I am not the only one the have these problem !!!
>> What can I do about it ?

 The answer is - it really doesn't know that there is an element y in
that structure. (I'm not trying to be obvious). I had the same problem
with some code I was writing on a Sun with gcc-2.2.2 and gdb-4.6. You
must use the syntax:
 (from a previous mail message)
 I figured out the problem. I don't know why yet but structures which
get "typdef'd" get handled as "unknown type" by gdb. By just stating
them as "struct my_struct { ... };" everything was fine. Live and
learn.


This should take care of your immediate problem - apparently the other
syntax causes gcc to simply malloc storage - essentially untyped which
has a structure that it only knows the size of - not the members.

Let me know if this is still a problem.

*******************************************************************************
Scott Kay
The Analytical Sciences Corporation (TASC)
55 Walkers Brook Drive
Reading, MA
INTERNET ADRESS:  spkay@fandago.read.tasc.com

*******************************************************************************
From: casadei@verona.mit.edu (Stefano Casadei)
Newsgroups: gnu.gdb.bug
Subject: calling member functions....(gcc-2.2.2,gdb-4.7,sun4)
Date: 22 Jan 1993 21:44:31 -0500
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Distribution: gnu

When trying to call a member function in gcc-2.2.2, gdb-4.7 (on a sun4)
replies systematically as in the folloing example:

(gdb) print f.y0(3,2)
Structure has no component named y0.

Please, tell me that I am not the only one the have these problem !!!
What can I do about it ?

Thanks.

Please reply to casadei@cesena.mit.edu

Stefano
From: spkay@fandago.read.tasc.com (Scott Kay)
Newsgroups: gnu.gdb.bug
Subject: gdb-4.7 on SCO-3.2.(2/4)
Date: 22 Jan 1993 21:38:14 -0500
Organization: GNUs Not Usenet
Distribution: gnu
Reply-To: Scott Kay<spkay@fandago.read.tasc.com>

  Did some work with gdb-4.7 on SCO-3.2.2 using gcc-2.3.2 last night 
(until far too late!) and found some rather strange behavior. I could debug
small simple C "hello world" programs (although I did not try to load
a core file for these). But then I tried running it on some of
the libg++-2.3 test files. It would not even recognize the symbol tables
output by gcc-2.3.2 on these. In fact, the error I got on this was an error
message from the gdb xcoffread.c file( somehting like ".bb/.eb error"). That 
file seems to indicate it is for handling the symbol info for RS6000 
output??  I really need to try debugging gdb to see exactly what is
happening to generate this error. I would apppreciate info from anyone 
familiar with gdb-4.7 behavior on SCO either (3.2.2 or 3.2.4).

Thanks in Advance -

 *******************************************************************************
Scott Kay
The Analytical Sciences Corporation (TASC)
55 Walkers Brook Drive
Reading, MA
INTERNET ADRESS:  spkay@fandago.read.tasc.com

*******************************************************************************
From: sriram@tcsi.tcs.com (Sriram Srinivasah)
Newsgroups: gnu.gdb.bug
Subject: v.4.7 print much too slow
Date: 26 Jan 1993 22:02:59 -0500
Organization: Teknekron Communications, Inc
Distribution: gnu

I just upgraded from gdb 4.5 to 4.7 on a Sun Sparc 2/SunOS 4.1.2, and find
the print function *really* slow (5-10 seconds for the most measly symbol lookup).
The previous version didn't have this problem. Anybody else faced this?

Actually, I have linked gdb with the latest duel package (comp.sources.misc) - 
CHECK IT OUT - but other than introducing a new command into gdb, it does not
touch anything else.

Sriram
(sriram@tcs.com)
From: svkakkad@cs.utexas.edu (Sheetal V. Kakkad)
Newsgroups: gnu.gdb.bug
Subject: GDB 4.7 core dump with -readnow command line option
Date: 21 Jan 1993 18:18:20 -0500
Organization: GNUs Not Usenet
Distribution: gnu
Reply-To: svkakkad@cs.utexas.edu

GDB 4.7 core dumps on a DECStation 5000/240 running Ultrix 4.2A, when
started with the "-readnow" command line option. Here's a test case
output:

% cat foo.c
main ()
{
  int i;

  i = 0;
}
% gcc -g -o foo foo.c
% gdb foo
GDB is free software and you are welcome to distribute copies of it
 under certain conditions; type "show copying" to see the conditions.
There is absolutely no warranty for GDB; type "show warranty" for details.
GDB 4.7, Copyright 1992 Free Software Foundation, Inc...
(gdb) quit
% gdb -readnow foo
GDB is free software and you are welcome to distribute copies of it
 under certain conditions; type "show copying" to see the conditions.
There is absolutely no warranty for GDB; type "show warranty" for details.
GDB 4.7, Copyright 1992 Free Software Foundation, Inc...Segmentation fault (core dumped)
%

Thanks,

Sheetal

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sheetal V. Kakkad	svkakkad@cs.utexas.edu	Office: (512) 471-9586
Dept of Computer Sciences, UT-Austin		Home:   (512) 450-1756
======================================================================