HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ptfarre@afterlife.ncsc.mil (Peter Farrell)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Please Prove it to me!
Date: 28 Aug 92 05:37:00 GMT
Organization: The Great Beyond

In article <Aug.25.02.29.26.1992.19610@athos.rutgers.edu> lhep_ltd@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Leonidas Hepis) writes:
>
>You are imagining things.  I'm an 'unconverted' man.  There's a cry for 
>Truth inside me, NOT *your* 'truth' crying out within me.  I sense 
>the cry for Truth...  Wishful thinking and fear of death are not sufficient 
>reasons for me, Andrew, to convert to ANY religion.   Good evidence is.
> 
Leo,
Out of curiosity, what WOULD be good evidence?

Also - 
don't know if you saw David Shao's post in response to this part of your
article: 

>Utter destruction of humanity?  How about the anti-family planning
>practices of the churches...
>

it is posted under its own heading as "There are NOT too many..." or
something like that. (I think David meant for it to go after Leo's,
since it is obviously in response to Leo's thoughts here.)

footnote to the moderator: How does this happen? When I posted my
article a few weeks ago called "You've GOTTA be kidding..." it was
incorrectly posted as its own subject instead of as a response to
a previous one.  Just curious. 

[It sounds like a failure in my program for splitting the mail file
into individual postings.  Unix mail files are not structured very
well.  It's not like TOPS-20 where the mail receiver generated a
header for each message that included a count of the number of
characters in it.  This allowed you to know quite unambiguously where
message boundaries are.  Instead we break messages whenever there's
something that looks like a valid header.  There's a rule that is
supposed to be unambiguous, involving a line that begins with "From"
and a valid date, but I think there are still some situations where
ambiguities can occur when a message includes another one, at least
the way incoming mail to this group is set up.  --clh]
From: ricko@ee.uts.edu.au (Rick Jelliffe)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Differing translations of the bible sought
Date: 24 Aug 92 01:11:29 GMT
Organization: University of Technology, Sydney, Australia

diarmuid@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Diarmuid Pigott) writes:

>I am interested in two versions of the bible  ...

>The former [KJV]I want because I have written some Christian classical music,
>and find that only the KJV has sufficient lyrical quality to work. I
>would however like to avoid any contraversial documents. 

This is not a direct answer, but if you're looking for a beautiful
rendering of Scripture, Msgr Knox's 1948 New Testament is just
fantastic. No version has more beautiful structure and punctuation
that I've ever seen. Of course, the more familiar versions
have a sentimental beauty though.

-ricko
From: dlhpfm!dlh@ncoast.org (daniel lance herrick)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Contribution to music, art and architecture
Date: 1 Sep 92 07:48:54 GMT
Organization: dlh Performance Marketing

phantom@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (James Choi) writes:

> My question is, is it safe to say that Catholic has contributed to all
> these forms of art whereas protestants did not do much?
> 
> [
> So Reformed Christianity was known mostly for its
> psalms.
> --clh]

He said more, but that's all I'm going to talk about.

Some time ago, I acquired a copy of The Book of Praise, the Anglo
Genevan Psalter.  New metrifications of the entire Psalter set to the
Genevan tunes of Calvin's time, prepared by the Reformed Church of
Canada.  Recently, I started to search for a source to buy enough to
adopt as a church hymnal.  The search brought me into contact with Reg
Barrow of Still Waters Revival Books.

He just reprinted, and I am now reading, 600 pages advocating exclusive
psalmody - the use of inspired Psalms and Hymns and Spiritual Songs, to
the exclusion of all other music, in worship.  The presbyterians held
two meetings back in 1905, one in Pittsburgh and one in Chicago.  The
same list of titles were presented at both meetings with different
speakers. The book (McNaughton, The Psalms in Worship) is a collection
of the papers read at both meetings.

I'm finding the exegesis quite convincing.

(Barrow also eschews instruments in worship, calling them a papish
judaizing innovation introduced in 1290.  That argument draws on other
sources and I am less interested in it.)

One thing that seems clear from McNaughton is that the
Calvinist/Presbyterian/Puritan tradition extending from Calvin's Geneva
well into the United States was the use of the Psalms and no uninspired
hymns or songs in worship.

There has been a variety of music used to set the Psalms.  I have a
recent Presbyterian psalter that uses familiar hymn tunes that you will
find in any twenty year old Baptist hymnal.  And The Book of Praise
uses the tunes from the Geneva of 1530.  

dan
From: conan@purina.berkeley.edu (David Cruz-Uribe)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Monks & Nuns?
Date: 27 Aug 92 07:26:25 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Math. Department.

In article <Aug.26.02.01.40.1992.7609@athos.rutgers.edu> marlatt@spot.Colorado.EDU (Stuart W. Marlatt) writes:

>My wife has been reading a book describing life in a convent,
>and asked me which Christian sects have a history of supporting
>various forms of religious orders, specifically nuns, but also
>monks, etc. As I couldn't answer with any certainty, I thought
>I'd ask the net...

Roman Catholics, the Orthodox and the other Eastern Churches (Copts, Armenians,
etc.) all have traditions of religious orders, though I cannot comment
with certainty about how widespread they are currently in the East.  Here
in the West, the Protestant Reformation essentially ended religious
orders within Protestant denominations.  There are exceptions:  the 
Anglicans still have a small collection of monastaries and convents, and
I have heard that the German Lutherans do as well.  There may be others,
but they are surely few in number.  When I was in Taize, I was told that
Taize was the first Protestant religious community formed since the
Reformation; I don't know if this is the case or not.

Yours in Christ,

David Cruz-Uribe, SFO

[For many years the Methodist Church had deaconesses, who looked
mighty suspiciously like an order of nuns.  I believe the office is
now defunct.  --clh]
From: ncramer@bbn.com (Nichael Cramer)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: LXX      the SEPTUAGINT (in english)
Date: 28 Aug 92 05:16:56 GMT
Reply-To: ncramer@labs-n.bbn.com (Nichael Cramer)
Organization: Bolt Beranek and Newman Inc., Cambridge MA

anachem@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (mark gilstrap) writes:
>ncramer@labs-n.bbn.com (Nichael Cramer) writes:
>>	if [anyone find a good translation of the LXX] let the rest of us know
>	Bar none!!! the best translation is the work done at Holy
>	Transfiguration Monastery (Boston vicinity - by Greek
>	Orthodox monastics who were extremely careful) and available [...]

Being in the "Boston vicinity" myself, I just gave the Holy Transfiguration
Monastery a call.  It turns out that they have translated only the Psalter
(i.e. not the entire LXX).

Oh well, the search continues...

NICHAEL                                         __
nichael@bbn.com  --       Be as Passers-by.  -- IS
From: rreid@ecst.csuchico.edu (Ralph Reid III)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: thought for the day (8-23)
Date: 24 Aug 92 01:21:57 GMT
Organization: California State University, Chico

Sunday, August 23:

     Love is long-suffering.  <1 Corinthians 13: 4>

-- 
Ralph.  N6BNO.
Phone 1-916-345-9155.
lectromail- rreid@cscihp.ecst.csuchico.edu.
I do not waste time expressing others' opinions!
From: keiner@earthview.cms.udel.edu (Louis Keiner)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Clinton & Gore
Date: 3 Sep 92 04:08:44 GMT

Yes, Bill Clinton and Al Gore are Southern Baptists, and yes, their views on
a great many things differ from the current leadership of the Southern Baptist
Convention. One thing to remember is that the SBC is an organization that was
founded to facilitate missions by pooling the resources of many churches. It
sends missionaries, publishes literature and does many other things, but it 
does not have any control whatsoever over the local churches. The association
is voluntary. Until recently there was no effort at excluding churches that
did not exactly follow the majority opinion. Clinton and Gore are definately
in the moderate (liberal for Baptists) wing of the denomination as far as their
social views, and there are many Baptists and many churches who have similar
views. As recent elections in the convention have showed, a majority of South-
ern Baptists seem to have more conservative views than them. It is interesting
that at this year's convention, Dan Quayle spoke, he not being of the same
denomination, but he had the right views to be invited by the leadership. It
will be even more interesting if Clinton and Gore are elected, if they are 
allowed to speak at conventions. We shall see.........

Peace,

Louis

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Louis E. Keiner - College of Marine Studies              "Violence is the 
University of Delaware, Newark, DE 19716                  last refuge of the
keiner@earthview.cms.udel.edu                             incompetent." - IA
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: rreid@ecst.csuchico.edu (Ralph Reid III)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: thought for the day (9-2)
Date: 3 Sep 92 04:15:50 GMT
Organization: California State University, Chico

Wednesday, September 2:

     The desirable thing in earthling man is his loving-kindness.
<Proverbs 19: 22>

-- 
Ralph.  N6BNO.
Phone 1-916-345-9155.
lectromail- rreid@cscihp.ecst.csuchico.edu.
I do not waste time expressing others' opinions!
From: phantom@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (James Choi)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Smoking, health, risk, life...
Date: 2 Sep 92 02:25:34 GMT
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston Illinois.

Thank you to all of you who sent me detailed explanation.  The answers I
received can be summarized as "the ill effect to our health is the reason
for not smoking."

One further question.  It is a recent discovery that smoking can kill.
Does the church policy coincide with the medical discovery?  I think it was
about 25 to 30 years ago that the surgeon general issued the statement that
smoking can be hazardous to your health.  Even today, there are a few do
not believe it.  What was the church's position before this medical
discovery?  If non-smoking was the policy, what was the reason then?

If the respect for one's life is the reason for non-smoking, does the
church equally strongly discourage motorcycle riding and other high risk
activities, sports, etc.?  Games like intense soccer hardly ever end
without someone gettting some kind of injury somewhere.  Boxing is known to
kill and permanently damage human body.  Are these acceptable Christian
games?

James Choi
From: mayne@ds1.scri.fsu.edu (Bill Mayne)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: "Christian politics"??
Date: 30 Aug 92 05:45:27 GMT
Reply-To: mayne@ds1.scri.fsu.edu (Bill Mayne)
Organization: SCRI, Florida State University

In article <Aug.28.01.44.01.1992.25859@athos.rutgers.edu> markc@eomer.hw.stratus.com (Mark Christensen) writes:
>...  Look at the Pilgrims
>and Puritans how they escaped governmental religious persecution.

They escaped being persecuted themselves, not to end persecution.
They just wanted to cease being persecutees and become persecutors.
When will the myth that these people stood for individual liberty and
freedom of religion die? Recall that Roger Williams was run out of
the Massachusetts colony. Alleged witches were burned in Salem.
Quakers were hanged on Boston common. Even in the more liberal
colonies like Virginia churches were supported by taxes and it
was not long before the Revolution that Thomas Jefferson (who was
only about 30 years old in 1776 and was condemned as a atheist by
Christians of his time) drafted the Virginia statute on religious
freedom.

Credit deists and freethinkers like Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin
for the tradition of religious freedom that we have. Some Christians,
mostly those considered unorthodox by the powerful churches at the
time had enough sense to realize the need for religious freedom, but
certainly not the Pilgrims and Puritans.

Bill Mayne

[And some folks like Roger Williams, of course.  --clh]
From: cmgrawbu@eos.ncsu.edu (CHRISTOPHER M GRAWBURG)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: prayer
Date: 27 Aug 92 07:08:09 GMT
Reply-To: cmgrawbu@eos.ncsu.edu (CHRISTOPHER M GRAWBURG)
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos

I had one question in relation to the prayer posts.

I have made lists of things to pray about, etc..
and in starts to seem repetitive real quick!!!

I end up saying the same basic lines about things day in and day
out and they start to be more habit than anything else.

My relationship with God seems kinda habitual.

Suggestions???


Chris
From: alisonjw@spider.co.uk (Alison J Wyld)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: "Christian politics"??
Date: 28 Aug 92 04:59:48 GMT
Organization: Spider Systems Limited, Edinburgh, UK.

In article <Aug.27.03.31.10.1992.5497@athos.rutgers.edu> bulloj@rpi.edu ( ) writes:
>
>Anyway, I don't want to start or carry on an argument about politics... it's
>just that with the elections coming up in our nation, it's almost
>impossible not to think about it. The fact that almost all of my Christian
>friends are so cutting and disparaging about my political beliefs just 
>serves to amplify my confusion. In one sense I feel like I must be 
>deluded because most Evangelicals are hard-core all-American right-wing 
>Republicans, and I'm practically a socialist. I'm just curious about 
>why this has happened in our country (a large proportion of Evangelicals
>who support Republicans). Is this a common theme in other nations? What
>about Germany, or England?                           
>

This is certainly not the case in the UK.  Here Christians seem to
have the same political diversity as the population as a whole.  Here
in Scotland, the political consensus is left of centre, as is the
political consenus in the Church.  This has lead to clashes with the
government over the last decade.

You would certainly find a lot of people here who are Christians and
Socialists, and it has been observed that the British Labour Party
(used to be socialist, isn't really any more) owes more to Methodism
and to Marx.  The Labour habit of calling others Brother and Sister is
due to its Christian influences.

Hope this is of interest

In Him

Alison

(I should probably point out that our political spectrum seems much
wider than yours - most Democrats would probably count as
Conservatives here)

>
>Peace,
>John Bullough
>bulloj@rpi.edu
>
From: vek@allegra.att.com (Van Kelly)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Qumran finding
Date: 3 Sep 92 04:15:28 GMT
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Murray Hill, NJ, USA

eje@irenaeus.mlo.dec.com wrote:

    ... this scholar had translated Matthew into Aramaic and discovered
    that it was much, much easier than it should have been given the
    disparity between Aramaic and Greek, and he found plays on words that
    only existed in Aramaic, and other literary techniques that made no
    sense in Greek but perfect sense in Aramiaic.  Then I read Eusebius,
    who says quite explicitly that Matthew wrote his Gospel for the
    Hebrews "in their own tongue".  No question in his mind.  So I'm
    thinking, why is this such a hotly debated topic?  What's the big
    deal?  Matthew was written in a Semitic language.  It's obvious. Case
    closed.

One reason this is a topic of debate is that there are also about a
dozen examples of Jesus' wordplay in the Gospels which only make sense
if you assume the original words were Greek, and a few which seem to
play a Greek word against an Aramaic word.  Some scholars also adduce
evidence for classical Hebrew behind some of Jesus' turns of phrase.
So what can we infer about the language(s) Jesus and other Galileans
spoke everyday?  How multi-lingual were they?  We know Hebraist and
Hellenized Jews lived side by side in the Galilee, not to mention
Gentiles.  Did the subcultures somehow keep their languages separate
or did they evolve local creoles as almost always happens?  (Ever hear
New York "Espangles" or "Spanglish"?)   If they spoke in a creole, did
they ever use it in written form, or did they always revert to a
standard language?  When Matthew wrote his Gospel for the "Hebrews"
(whatever Eusebius meant by that term), was that in classical Hebrew,
standard (Judean) Aramaic, or a hellenized Galilean Aramaic Jesus
spoke?

That's a lot of what the controversy is about, in a nutshell.


>   Also makes Matthew 16:18 come across very differently, and obviates the
>   argument that Petros and Petra are different words, since they are only
>   translations of the one word that only could have existed in the origianl
>   Semitic language, Kepha.

It sure weakens the Petros/Petra dichotomy, but doesn't eliminate it.


Van Kelly
vek@allegra.att.com


The above reflects only my opinions, not those of my employer.
From: dlhpfm!dlh@ncoast.org (daniel lance herrick)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Christian Companion?????
Date: 28 Aug 92 06:38:03 GMT
Organization: dlh Performance Marketing

cmgrawbu@eos.ncsu.edu (CHRISTOPHER M GRAWBURG) writes:

> Can anyone out there help me here??
> 
> I am a student at NC State. I have been looking for a girl for quite some tim
> now. The only problem is that it is difficult to find a girl that has the
> same standards that I as a Christian have. As you can imagine (and experience
> drinking is a "big part" of campus life. All my friends drink and do there be
> to convince me to do the same. I would really love to find a decent girl
> out there. See, I went to Campus Crusade last week with a friend of mine.
> That was pretty cool, but all the people there are all friends from last year
> and have formed pretty strong clicks. I'm not sure what to do?
> 
> Does the Bible have any advise on finding companionship???
> 
> Any advise would be appreciated!!
> 
> Chris

"Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of
some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the
day approaching."  Hebrews 10:25

School has not been going very long.  Was this the first meeting of
Campus Crusade this school year?  Was everyone full of sharing the
glories of the Summer and renewing old acquaintances?  Were there no
other freshmen?  Others who were overwhelmed by this meeting of long
time friends who seemed to have no room for a new friend?  Did you walk
up to anyone and say, "Hi!  I'm Chris and I'm new here."?  Or did you
stick to the friend who took you so you were as unapproachable as all
the members of those cliques?

Where did you go to church last Sunday?  You _did_ go to church last
Sunday?  How about Wednesday or Thursday?

Paul wrote "...for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith
to be content." Phillipians 4:11

There is a lot of profit in seeking to be found faithful in the things
entrusted to you and letting the Lord take care of the hard things. 
Stop spending all your waking hours scheming how to find a girl.  Get a
copy of Gary DeMar's book on Surviving College and plan your work week
to do well in your course load.  Implement that plan.

Continue going to Campus Crusade and church.  Make yourself useful: 
help pass out song books, set up chairs beforehand, take down chairs
afterwards.  Volunteer to work in the nursery in church or help in the
third grade Sunday School class.  Seek "to be found faithful in small
things".  

Don't be like all those other guys.  Be the guy that her mother told
her she would find someday.  You are not the only one who is lonely. 
There are other people who are looking.  Be visibly different (in the
kinds of ways I have suggested above) and people will find you.

Don't be in the middle of a crowd of those guys (your words are "All my
friends") because the person you say you want to find is not going to
push through a barricade like that to find out what a nice guy you
really are.  Being in a crowd like that disqualifies you from her
consideration.

The Lord will direct your path.  "Be anxious for nothing."
From: autodesk!mickw@uunet.uu.net (Mick Washbrook)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: The problem of pain - query
Date: 4 Sep 92 06:58:19 GMT

In article <Aug.26.01.43.22.1992.7454@athos.rutgers.edu>, miner@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes:
> 
> He who created space-time has the power to alter it.  Specifically, if
> God stands outside of time (He must, if He created the continuum), He
> is able to remove "events" that to us seem to have "occurred" and
> literally cause them "never to have happened."  This is of course
> incomprehensible to us, but so is the creation of space-time in the
> first place.

If god (Jehovah, presumably) stands outside structures as all
encompassing as space and time, does this also mean that god
also stands outside of good and evil, surveying and encompass-
ing both equally?




--
From: believer@world.std.com (Frank G Sesco)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Dreams of the end
Date: 4 Sep 92 06:57:59 GMT
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA

The past few weeks have been most confusing.

Several weeks ago I dreamed about the world ending. In this dream I
was a passenger on a hijacked airplane, in the end I was given a way out
of the plane by GOD. I awoke feeling that I had been warned to prepare
for the return of our LORD.

Several days ago someone mailed me a chain letter. The letter claimed
that many Christians where having similar dreams and then claimed that
these dreams where the result of subliminal messages on TV. Later I
discovered that newage channelers where claiming similar things. Knowing
that the occult is the realm of the evil one I can only assume that the
evil one does not wish these dreams to be taken seriously.

Am I the only one who had this dream or are there others out there?


-- 
  |                     In God We Trust                            |
--+--                                                            --+--
  |                                                                |
  |                                                                |
From: REXLEX@linac.fnal.gov
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: God in the movies
Date: 23 Aug 92 23:47:25 GMT
Organization: Fermi Lab

In article <Aug.21.00.35.10.1992.14391@athos.rutgers.edu>
k053730@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Philip G. Sells) writes:
>Greetings,
>
>Having just watched _Raiders of the Lost Ark_ again, I wondered about
>common depictions of God in films, both popular and not so popular.
>Could anyone provide some references to any analytical work that's been
>done about this?  Or perhaps we could begin a discussion here.
>-- 
>Philip Sells			Is anything too hard for the LORD?
>k053730@hobbes.kzoo.edu			--Genesis 18:14
>
Though dated, an excellent book: IMAGES OF MAN  by DONALD J DREW.  I've often
thought about writing a book titled "Messianic Concepts in Modern Culture" and
the cinema would have a front row seat.  I think at judgment day many are going
to have to answer for the lack of or the incorrectness of the way God is
portrayed by the cinema.  There are many instances where my wife and I sit back
at the end of a movie and say, "They really had a chance to say something
significant there, but they blew it."  
Books too.  Have you read HEINLEIN, ROBERT A's "Job: A Comedy of Justice"? I
thought he had written a unique & imaginative perspective of the world at the
end of time.  Only he blew it at the very end as "Job" went to "Heaven" and
Jehovah was portrayed as being  only a lieutenant to the real divine who is
never revealed cause earth and its in habitants are insignificant to Him. 
Angels treat new comers as scurvey dogs because they claim what the Scriptures
state that the angels will then serve men.  
THe list goes on, but take a look at Drew's book.
Rex