HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Seder/Passover meal/Maundy Thursday suggestions
Date: 11 Jan 93 08:57:17 GMT
Reply-To: Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu (Albert Lunde)
Organization: Ministry of Silly Walks

In article <Jan.7.01.34.31.1993.6122@geneva.rutgers.edu> holly@csn.org (Dawn E. Bergacker) writes:
>My church (Presbyterian USA) is thinking of holding a Seder for Maundy
>Thursday service.  I'm on the worship committee, and I'm looking for
>hints on how to present a fun and meaningful Passover meal.  Does
>anyone have any experiences to share?  The Seder I attended years ago
>ended with lamb stew.  Does anyone have a large recipe for lamb stew?
>Thanks!
>
>[There has been controversy here in the past as to whether it is a
>good idea for Christians to have seders.  You might want to consider
>how you would feel about a non-Christian group holding a communion
>service...  I think there are reasonable arguments for it as well.
>But if you are, and are going to call it a Seder, I would suggest that
>you consult with some Jewish friends, and try to make sure that you
>follow Jewish procedures.  Otherwise, I'd suggest that you simply
>indicate that you're trying to come somewhat closer to the way Jesus
>would have celebrated the Last Supper, but avoid actually saying you
>are going to have a seder.  --clh]

Our congregation has on some years done a "Seder" and some years not --
we are concerned about the issues of borrowing from Jewish tradition,
but different planners have addressed it differently.

Last year we had an "agape feast" consisting of a meal in several
courses, with a mixture of biblical and contemporary readings 
interspersed with the serving of the food.  The nature of
the food and the titles of the courses in the liturgy were 
somewhat symbolic, for example, the second was entilted "Stone Soup"
(and one of the readings was the folk tale of the same name.)
At the same time, the details of the symbolism were not closely
tied to the form of a Seder.

One consistent thing we have done is to have a "foot washing" ritual,
where the congregation washes each others feet.  We have generally
had some sort of all night vigil as well -- the transition to this
varies but tends to involve recounting some of the story of the
disciples in the garden.

I think the worship services around holy week are a good opportunity to tell
old stories in new ways -- to introduce some dramatic and artistic
elements. (I don't know if this helps the original poster's concerns)
I'd say on the one hand don't be afraid to innovate, on the other hand,
try to take a theological theme and use it as a unifying metaphor.

-- 
 Albert Lunde         | Interfaith  |     *Y*Y*      "A branch on the
 Albert-Lunde@nwu.edu |  Bisexual   |      *Y*        tree of life"
                      |  Feminist   |.......|.........................
From: aaron@binah.cc.brandeis.edu (Scott Aaron)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Death Penalty
Date: 12 Jan 93 09:02:28 GMT
Reply-To: aaron@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Organization: Brandeis University

In article <Jan.11.03.35.46.1993.21063@geneva.rutgers.edu>, poram%mlsma@att.att.com writes:
>>			  Those who can't practice that, will be judged
>>in kind.  When Jesus encountered the mob about to stone a woman for
>>prostitution, did He join them in the punishment?
>
>Jesus pointed to their own lack of righteousness in the
>incident: it was the job of the witnesses to cast the first
>stone. But Jesus' actual words "he who is without sin cast the
>first stone" is an actual affirmation of the death sentance not
>an appeal to abolish it.

Thank you for supporting the anti-death penalty view.  The murderer deserves
death because of his crime.  But since we all deserve death for our own
crimes, we couldn't carry out the just sentence could we?

  -- Scott @Brandeis

	"But God demonstrates His	"I tell you that in the same way,
	 own love for us, in that	 there will be more joy in heaven
	 while we were yet sinners,	 over one sinner who repents, than
	 Christ died for us."		 over ninety-nine righteous persons
					 who need no repentance." 
		-- Romans 5:8 [NASB]		-- Luke 15:7 [NASB]
From: eng10524@nusunix1.nus.sg (RAMASWAMI VISHWANATH)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Apostle Thomas in India?
Date: 11 Jan 93 08:56:19 GMT
Organization: National University of Singapore

aslt@acad2.alaska.edu wrote:
: Someone told me that Thomas the apostle (as in Doubting Thomas) ended up
: in India as part of his missionary effort, but couldn't point me to any
: evidence.  Anyone know anything about this?
: 
: Thanks in advance.  E-mail replies welcome.
: 


: Lee

	Yes indeed - in fact I (AM NOT A CHRISTIAN) but do know for sure
that he is suposed to have died in India ; the church in his honor is in
the southern city of Madras . Appropriately it is called 'St.Thomas'
Mount ' as it stands atop a small hill . It is a shrine that is still
much in use and well known  though i wonder how many know that it  house
 the tomb of one of Christ's apostles . Please take my word for it - i
come from the city itself .
From: dan@ingres.com (a Rose arose)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: ?'s
Date: 8 Jan 93 06:00:46 GMT
Organization: Ingres, an ASK Company, Alameda CA 94501

shrum@eos.arc.nasa.gov (Rick Shrum) writes:
: Some questions:
: 
: 1) The concept of eternity; I mean God has *always* existed. I find it
:    hard to imagine there being no beginning.

It's fun to ask questions like this to a group of people and watch what
happens.  This is not to make fun of the writer of this question but rather
to show amusement at the nature of the question.  If there must be a
beginning, then what happened before that beginning to cause that beginning
to happen?  Either the universe and God had no beginning or else everything
was caused by nothing.

Of course, if life including God evolved from non-life, then how long has
the universe had to evolve this life from non-life?  Why didn't it happen
before that time that life began?  If life didn't have a beginning, then
we can assume that life has had an eternity to mature in knowledge and power
and that somehow life in some form must be completely matured.  Following
this train of thought, you'd eventually come to the conclusion that God
probably exists and has always existed.

: 2) If God is unchanging, why did he seem so much more harsh in the OT?

God's character never changes--just his actions.  He always makes the best
and wisest choice possible in every situation.  However, our choices down
through history do change circumstances so that the best thing for God to
do also changes, so in response to that, God's actions change.  To some, it
may seem that we are ruling God and are able to manipulate His actions, but
this is entirely backwards.  God makes his rules and promises--some of which
depend on our actions and decisions.  If we repent, He saves.  If we pray
right, He answers as promised.  He's humble enough to let us choose and be
people and yet righteousness and wise enough to keep a tight hold on his Word.

As for the difference between OT times and NT times, I'm not sure God is
really so much harder in the OT than now.  I'm not really sure how we can
really measure the hardness of God.

: 3) On the cross, Jesus asked why God had forsaken him. Didn't he have
:    total faith?

Yes.
From: labson@borneo.corp.sgi.com
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Gospel According to me
Date: 5 Jan 93 08:30:22 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.

When witnessing, most of the Christians always says "According to the
Gospel of Matthew, MArk Luke & John..this...& that...etc" at least
that's how a brother witness to me....he quoted a lot of stuff from the
Gospel of M,M,L,J....but nothing about what God has done to
him..........In my opinion (again only my opinion) We better start
telling the GOSPEL according us, individually...what God has done to our
lives, Our experience with God etc..etc...Matthew,Mark,Luke or John
cannot speak for us, Only us can tell others what God has done in our
own lives.....I think you can effectively witness to others if you tell
the Gospel According to you...... 


-- 

Joel R. Labson X5852
labson@borneo.corp.sgi.com
From: news@cbnewsk.att.com
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Non-procreative sex
Date: 6 Jan 93 06:56:48 GMT
Organization: AT&T Bell Labs

In article <Jan.3.21.39.10.1993.28169@geneva.rutgers.edu> revc@garg.campbell.ca.us (Bob Van Cleef) writes:
>Richard Chonak writes:
>>What can couples do if for some serious reason they need to postpone
>>having a child?
>>They can take advantage of the naturally occurring infertility in the
>>monthly cycle, learn how to identify the infertile time and avoid the
>>fertile time.

>Am I the only one who sees this as an example of "violating the spirit
>of the law while fulfilling the letter?"

Yes. I agree.  I still can't figure out why the introduction of naturally
occuring hormones, ie. the pill, is lumped together with other forms of
birth control.  And what of the pill being used for medical reasons other
than birth control, I knew a girl in high school who was not sexually active
but was on the pill to relieve severe menstrual cramps.  My wife and I debated
this issue and decided that if God wanted us to have another child, we would
be open to it and not have an abortion.  How can such an assertion that sex
without the possibility of procreation is wrong be resolved for infertile 
couples through sterility, menopause, timing, or any other method; with the
belief that marriage is a sacrament and that sex between married couples is
the celebration of that sacrament.

Joe Moore
From: ksand@apple.com (Kent Sandvik )
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Dodd and Gandi
Date: 11 Jan 93 08:50:27 GMT
Organization: (The Afterlife of Gogol, Inc.)

In article <Jan.8.00.51.20.1993.2555@farside.rutgers.edu>, dan@ingres.com
(a Rose arose) wrote:
> In performing wonderful deeds and in satisfying his own hunger to see the
> well being of his people, Gandi, while satisfying himself, did many good 
> things, and yet in the end he made Christ appear unnecessary and not even
> desirable.  Gandi did good deeds while leading people away from the Source
> of what could make their deeds good.  Had Gandi turned to Christ, no doubt
> many would have followed and much more good would have been accomplished.

Most likely Gandi would have placed India in turmoil and even more 
killing and death would have happened if he suddenly turned into a 
non-Indian religion. This speaking from a political viewpoint.

Gandi is not the only example of a humanistic person that is not
Christian, humanism is present in many forms, of which religious
humanism is just one attribute.

Kent
-------------------
Kent Sandvik (UUCP: ....!apple!ksand; INTERNET: ksand@apple.com)
DISCLAIMER: Private activities on the Net.		
Usenix member # 6110.
From: daveshao@leland.stanford.edu (David Shao)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Wesley Allen "Hang Me" Dodd
Date: 7 Jan 93 06:35:37 GMT
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA

In article <Jan.6.02.01.34.1993.2891@geneva.rutgers.edu> crs@stein.u.washington.edu (Cliff Slaughterbeck) writes:

>Thirdly, as a taxpayer, it costs much more to execute someone than it does
>to house them for life in prison.  We have all heard the statistics about
>how much it costs to house prisoners, but it costs much more to pay all of
>the lawyers and judges who argue the case through the myriads of appeals.
>Since nearly all cases of aggravated murder are committed by the poor, all
>of the costs of the defense and appeals are borne by the state.

Okay, so say tomorrow a men's rights group announces that it will raise
money to continuously litigate the case of any man accused of rape.
Suppose their fundraising attempts are successful, maybe some 
billionaire bequeathing his fortune.  It now becomes "too expensive"
to prosecute rapists.  Might as well repeal the laws against rape.
Substitute for the men's rights group the KKK and the crime the
lynching of blacks for another example.  Do we just give up when 
confronted by well-financed evil?  Must Christianity be used by people
to corrode away the morals of this nation?

It's the opponents of capital punishment who must take the blame for 
the expense of it's implementation.

>Surveys of the American people show that most Americans strongly support the
>death penalty, so it is unlikely to be overturned in the near future.  I
>have often wondered why this is the case.  I have come to the conclusion that
>people regard the death penalty as a way of getting back at the bad guys.
>It mostly makes people happy that they have a way of getting back at those
>who torment them.  Revenge.

I guess people are wrong for reading their Bible and coming to the
conclusion that the Lord demands the death penalty for those who prey 
upon them.

Now that the motives of the proponents of capital punishment have been
so scrurrilously attacked, let me go to the opposite extreme and throw
out the following:

  Why do some liberals oppose the death penalty?  Well, it's their
  rejection of God and their adoption of the slogan:  "Man is the
  measure of all things."  Sentient human life is the most precious
  thing, therefore it must be preserved at all costs no matter how
  evil it is.  After all, who are we to judge what is good and evil?

Do I really believe that the opponents of capital punishment think like
this?  NO!  But please, let them try to have with us a civilized
discussion instead of just calling us the evil ones.

Yours in Christ
David Shao
From: djohnson@cs.ucsd.edu (Darin Johnson)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Non-procreative sex
Date: 8 Jan 93 05:58:33 GMT
Organization: =CSE Dept., U.C. San Diego

>No the rhythm method still allows for the possibility of procreation,
>simply because it is TOTALLY UNRELIABLE.

Well, I'm amazed - just today there was a long article in the L.A.
Times about natural family planning methods.  They were stated to be
very effective - with the vast majority of pregnancies due to people
who knowingly take a chance during the fertile period.  There are also
a wide ragne to what NFP means, from purely estimating fertile periods
(very unsafe), using calendars, using temperatures, and other tests.
(they also stated that using barriers during the fertile period was
much more effective than normal, since the devices were used more
carefully since the users knew chances of pregnancy were higher) It is
expected that within 2 years there will be a home urine test to check
for fertile times.

Anyway, I'm protestant, and had always assumed NFP was risky, so was
surprised when I read the article.  (At this point, it doesn't concern
me since I'm single, and would research the various options if I ever
get married)

-- 
Darin Johnson
djohnson@ucsd.edu
    "Are you a doctor?"   "No, but I watched."
From: seanna@bnr.ca (Seanna (S.M.) Watson)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: re: Death Penalty
Date: 8 Jan 93 06:01:17 GMT

In article <Jan.7.01.13.41.1993.6018@geneva.rutgers.edu> jwmorris@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Jeff Morris) writes:
>With all the discussion concerning the recent execution of a convicted
>murderer, I feel compelled to comment on some remarks posted on the
>appropriateness of Man's use of the death penalty.

>God says that anyone who murders shall lose his own life.

The bible (old testament) says that a woman found committing adultery
is to be stoned to death.  When such a woman was brought before Jesus,
he challenged those who had "taken responsibility" for her punishment
by telling them to examine themselves.  He forgave her, and told her
to turn from her ways. Was Jesus avoiding his responsibility to follow 
God's commands?  Are we not to follow his example?

-- 
Seanna Watson   Bell-Northern Research, 
(seanna@bnr.ca) Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Opinions, what opinions?  Oh *these* opinions. | It's hard to seize the
No, they're not BNR's, they're mine.           | day when you must first
I knew I'd left them somewhere.                | grapple with the morning.
From: mpaul@unlinfo.unl.edu (marxhausen paul)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Wesley Allen "Hang Me" Dodd
Date: 6 Jan 93 06:57:52 GMT
Organization: University of Nebraska--Lincoln

Well, we probably all get skeptical about "jailhouse conversions", especially
when they are used as a rationale to pardon or parole somebody.  But in this
case, I guess I'm inclined to take Dodd's statements about having peace with
God at face value because he has willingly embraced the temporal punishment 
for his crimes, and indeed seems to feel it is the only way to release him 
from his evil inclinations.  He hardly strikes me as someone who's saying,
"Hey, I found Jesus, everything's cool now - what, oh, those three boys?
Well, that's in my past now..." - on the contrary, he doesn't appear able
to forget them (I won't argue whether he ought to or not).  

In Nebraska, we are entering another round in the effort to execute murderer
Harold Otey (story was on "48 Hours" about a month ago.)  He steadfastly
denies his guilt and refuses to believe he will ever be executed, despite the
fact that even his defenders feel the evidence of his guilt is conclusive.
I've thought a lot lately about whether perhaps the finality of the death
sentence and the certainty of it's being carried out isn't salutary in forcing
people like Mr. Otey to admit to themselves their need for repentance.
On the flip side, one might come to the same conclusion if one had a lifetime
without parole to spend in reflection, without the mass of death-penalty
opponent people rallying around on one's behalf.

(I'm not a proponent or opponent of the death penalty, so I'm not interested
in defending a position either way.  This is all just random thoughts.)


--
paul marxhausen .... ....... ............. ............ ............ .......... 
 .. . .  . . . university of nebraska - lincoln .  . . .. . .  .. . . . . . . .
 .     .    .  .   .     .   .  .    .   .  .   .    .   .  grace .   .    .  . 
   .         .       .      .        .        .      .        .   happens .
From: anderson@cs.rose-hulman.edu (Claude W. Anderson)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Hal Lindsay's Writings on Prophesy
Date: 6 Jan 93 06:42:07 GMT
Reply-To: anderson@cs.rose-hulman.edu
Organization: Computer Science Department at Rose-Hulman

In the early 1970's, Hal Lindsey wrote many books on the end times,  
including "The Late Great Planet Earth", "There's a New World Coming", and  
"The Liberation of Planet Earth".  As a new Christian back then, I found  
them interesting, and they challenged me to see the Bible as very
relevant to our times.  I thought that he sometimes went too far in trying  
to correlate Scripture verses with current events, but that the main points  
of his books were good.

I have not seen any further books from him nor heard anything about him for  
many years.  Yesterday my 11-year-old-daughter saw one of his books on
our shelf and wondered if it would be a good book for her to read.

I believe in "You hall know them by their fruits" when it comes to 
evaluating Christian authors, especially for my children's consumption.
I know nothing about Hal Lindsey's life, ministry, etc, nor about
whether his writings are still generally accepted as they were 20 years
ago.  Can anyone give me more information?

--

Claude Anderson
anderson@cs.rose-hulman.edu    -  NeXT mail welcome
(812)877-8331
From: dvp@oasis.icl.co.uk (Dave Parry)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: The Death Penalty
Date: 12 Jan 93 09:07:46 GMT
Organization: The Mountains of Madness

I think the real problem with accepting the death penalty is that it's
so cold-blooded. Let me try and explain. Your daughter is raped or
killed or both and you arrive on the scene just as it's over, catching
the perpatrator (sp). In a (quite understandable) blind rage, you beat
the person to death (or shoot or knife him). Is this a sin? You have
reacted to a horrifying situation without thinking - instinctively. On
the other hand, you apprehend him, the police arrive and he is
arrested etc. etc. Now 1,2 or mayber more years hence, the state
decides it's time for him to walk the last mile. So the night before
he's asked for his last meal request. He then has to spend the whole
night knowing that he is going to be executed in the morning. He is
shaved, he is given a blessing if he wishes, he gets to walk to the
chair, he is strapped into the chair, a hood is placed over is head -
he can no longer see. He sits waiting for pain.

I've always believed that executions like this are barbaric. They are
cruel to the extent that I can't believe that God could condone such
an act. Think about it.....your leaders have decided that this man
will die. They have refused pleas for clemency and are allowing the
system, which we are all part of, to cold-bloodedly take a mans life.

Blowing away someone you catch in the act - OK, understandable and
forgiveable. Cold bloodedly executing someone, possibly years after
the event, I can't be happy about - I feel it's wrong. However, I
recognise that crimes of violence have to be stamped out, how do we do
that without the ultimate deterrent? I don't know. Does anyone?

Dave
From: ceb@dbrus.unify.com (Caroline E. Bryan)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Do We Need To Pray????
Date: 5 Jan 93 08:40:59 GMT
Organization: /usr/lib/news/organization

In article <Jan.3.21.44.04.1993.28273@geneva.rutgers.edu> labson@borneo.corp.sgi.com (Joel Labson) writes:
>I'd like some discussions on this....
>
>If God knows what we need, don't you think that He will just give it to
>us automatically without praying for it?
>
>I think we just need to pray for what we want...NOT what we need....?

Jesus Himself taught us one prayer, one line of which is "give us today our
daily bread".  You can't get more basic than the need for enough food to keep
us alive.  If Jesus asked His Father for bread daily, literally, and also
told us to ask Him for bread daily, literally, doesn't it behoove us to ask
God for the other things we need, too?

God knows what we need.  He also knows what we want.  We don't communicate
with God in order to inform Him of things He wouldn't know about otherwise.
By definition, God already knows everything we could possibly want to tell
him, as well as everything we would rather He didn't know about.  We communi-
cate with God in order to be able, on our parts, to continue to communicate
with Him.  Muscles unused atrophy and become unuseable.  The "prayer muscles"
can also atrophy.  Ask God for what you need, because what you need is to
stay in touch with God.


Carrie		ceb@rechenau.unify.com	x6244
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