From: gary@isis.cgd.ucar.edu (Gary Strand)
Subject: Socialism, again (was Re: Derailing the Reagan...)
Organization: Climate and Global Dynamics Division/NCAR, Boulder, CO
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 06:20:25 GMT

sj> Stephen Jascourt

sj> Real socialists were saying all along, for many decades now, that those
sj> countries [the communist ones] were *not* socialist.

  Actually, a good many American and European socialists had a lot of good
  things to say about the USSR during the '20s, '30s, '40s, and into the
  '50s. Only in the last 25-30 years have European democratic socialists
  greatly distanced themselves from Soviet-style totalitarian socialism.

sj> The term socialism is filled with mythologies created by both the western
sj> capitalist states and the Soviet-block state capitalists.

  Did you happen to get this "state capitalism" stuff from Gordon Fitch? In
  any case, since there were no capitalists in the Soviet bloc (the commu-
  nists killed most of them) I don't see how you can call that system any
  kind of "capitalist" system. Kind of like a socialist system with no
  socialists in it. The people have to be there.

sj> The Soviet bloc countries did not empower the masses nor did it make
sj> decisions for their benefit and well-being. 

  Totalitarians tend to do that.

sj> Its policies were not one of socialism.

  *Democratic* socialism, no, totalitarian socialism, yes.

sj> An centralized economy controlled by the state is not what socialism is
sj> all about.

  It's not what it's *all* about, however, between 1917 and 1990, it was a
  big part of what socialism was about.

sj> Socialism is about determining production and modes of production accord-
sj> ing to the needs of society with fair and equal input by all members of
sj> that society,

  Sort of like one dollar from Ross Perot is the same as one dollar from, say,
  Steve Jascourt? Why not let supply and demand do the work, instead of all
  these tiresome little committees guessing what's best? A dollar is a kind
  of vote, isn't it? BTW, those who have lots of "votes" are generally "out-
  voted" by lots of people with fewer votes. That's why there's lots of
  Toyota Tercels and Ford Escorts out there, and only a few Rolls-Royces.

  Lastly, is it "fair" that nurses make a lot less money than Michael Jor-
  dan? Nurses save people's lives, Jordan is there simply for entertainment.
  Would people suffer if he wasn't around? I doubt it.

sj> and in a practical sense would work best with most things determined on
sj> a highly decentralized organization so that people have the most control
sj> over things that affect them most directly. 

  Sounds more like libertarianism to me. So far, your "definition" hasn't been
  too specific.

  What I wonder is how this decentralized system, bereft of any pricing sys-
  tem or the input from supply and demand, can generate complicated things
  like jet aircraft, or millions of simple things like calculators (enough
  so that everyone who wants one can get one.)

--
Gary Strand                      Opinions stated herein are mine alone and are
strandwg@ncar.ucar.edu            not representative of NCAR, UCAR, or the NSF
Xref: sparky alt.activism:14813 talk.politics.misc:39661