HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: s7356911@deimos.ucc.umass.edu (DYLYN)
Subject: Re: Scots or Picts 
Summary:  matrilinear, etc.
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Keywords:  like, totally, y'know, etc.
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 06:19:00 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.154911.16900@news.clarkson.edu>, walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,) writes...
>From article <1992Sep10.033849.13907@cos.com>, by cooper@cos.com (Gary Cooper):

	--original post about Robert the Bruce's mother's lineage deleted--

>> Yes she was - and since, I believe, the Celts were a somewhat
>> matriarchal society,...
>> gary cooper (not the dead one)
                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^|...Of course, dead men don't post :->

>As I read it the Picts ... definitely used a matrilinear system of
>inheritance and may have been a matriarchal society (probably they were
>neither very patriarchal or matriarchal). The celts tended to be a more
>partriarchal society....

	Absolutely. The last king, to my knowledge, to take advantage of 
matrilinear descent was Kenneth mac Alpin, whose mother was royalty of the
Picts (matrilinear) and whose father was a royal Scot (patrilinear). This was 
quite a few centuries before King Robert (circa 900 ad I think).   Soon after
that the Picts vanished as a distinct people.
	While we're talking about the Picts, I have to add that what I
have read tells me that their language was a mixture of a P-Celtic language,
most closely related to Gaulish, and a non-Indo_European language.  This might
suggest that they were the `first wave' of Celtic settlers who mingled with 
the native Neolithic population in Britain  (similar to how the `Meti' of 
eastern Canada formed from the French and Algonquin people).

				dylyn  (a.k.a., daniel prosser)

    `We are pain
	And what cures pain, both.  We are
     The sweet, cold water, and the jar that pours'
				---Jelaluddin Rumi (1207-1273),
_/\  /\ dylyn (aka, d prosser) == S7356911@UCSVAX.UCS.umass.edu  /\
   \/  \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/  \/~~~~~
From: mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Scots or Picts (was Celtic alchoholism?)
Date: 14 Sep 1992 04:39:15 GMT
Organization: N.I.C.E.
Reply-To: mike@fionn.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.128.60

Graham Walker writes:
mike> How do you, or how does anyone, know whether the erectors of Callanish
mike> &al were, or were not, "Celts"?

>Point taken, however, since Callanish is dated from 3250 BC to 1500 BC
>(I did check this up this time) and the earlier date was befor the
>arrival of the Celts in Scotland (that is even if we assume the Picts were

In an archaeology class I went thru recently, the problem of the arrival
of Celts in Ireland was taken up -- Britain collaterally but not
really as part of the course.  The archaeologists have a lot of
trouble finding evidence for an invasion during the time most people
have always thot the Celts arrived, say 700 BC or 200 BC or 1500 BC
or whatever.  Maybe there is no surviving evidence of invasion.
(But that's not so for the Celtic invasion of Anatolia.)
If anyone knows differently, speak up.

There are certainly changes in the culture (like La Tene artwork
& iron weaponry).  But then you may remember an earlier posting
I made where I mentioned that it is hard to decide, in the
Europe of that time, whether the people who had "that" culture
spoke Celtic languages, & whether all Celtic speakers had that
culture -- it may not be so.   Then there's the problem of the
general origin of Indo-European.

For all we know, the same sort of people lived in the same spot
for thousands of years from Neolithic times & their language & culture 
just gradually evolved into Celtic.  What would that mean?
If so did "Celts" build Callanish or aren't you a Celt if you
don't wield iron, pipe, do knotwork, & aspirate consonants?
From: swade@ocf.berkeley.edu (Wade Shen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Celtic languages
Date: 9 Sep 1992 19:29:15 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility
NNTP-Posting-Host: sandstorm.berkeley.edu

One thing that should be noted about Manx, much of its vocabulary is
of welsh and old norse origins.  Even though it is classified as goidelic,
much of its structure has been influenced by the brittonic languages.

For those that are interested, I've just been reading this book:
_In Search of the Indo-Europeans_, by J.P. Mallory.  It describes
the development of all those indo-european languages, and has a section
on the Celts.
From: mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Celtic Cross
Date: 11 Sep 92 09:49:06 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London, UK.

From: walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,)
>There is also the feeling to-day that christianity (and
>capitalism) has failed - the environment in particular - and in reaction
>some people are looking back to pre-christian times to cultures that
>were believed to be more "pro-environment". You do not seem to be aware
>that in the US there is also people (non native americans) who have an
>active interest in the native american religions, which are also viewed
>as being pro-environment. (Personally, I would hope that people were

Yes, I am well aware of this, and I have in my time argued with
any number of neo-pagans and new-agers over historical
accuracy. It does seem to me there is a tendency to
back-project onto the Celts all our modern concerns, so we are
told that the Celts were more environmentalist, more feminist, and
for all I know had gay men's and lesbian awareness encounter
weekends. Pre World War II, the Aryans or Nordics were
the group on which modern people back-projected their
fantasies. I suppose the Celts are politically correct Aryans.

> Finally, there are a large number of us who are truely interested
> in our (celtic) heritage and wise to expore the past, and as I have said,
> learn from it.

I would have thought that part of being truly interested in your
celtic heritage would involve a concern for accuracy.

Matthew Huntbach
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: librik@cory.Berkeley.EDU (David Librik)
Subject: Re: News: Druids invented by French cartoonist
Organization: University of California, at Berkeley
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 05:47:16 GMT

halpin@vax.oxford.ac.uk writes:

>Has anyone got the lowdown on this? Is all this celtic stuff a figment
>of the imaginations of Goscinny and Uderzo???

It is a little-known fact that Wales was actually invented in the late
18th century, one day when Iolo Morgannwg didn't have much else to do.

- David
librik@cory.berkeley.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: rbv@cypress.com (Rpger Vanderveen)
Subject: Suo Gan "Empire of the Sun" song
Organization: Cypress Semiconductor, San Jose, CA, USA
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 20:16:14 GMT

mitchell@Software.Mitel.COM (Robert Mitchell) writes:

	The Steven Spielberg movie "Empire of the Sun" opens with a song
	called "Suo Gan".

	In response to a posting in rec.arts.movies 3 people have told me that
	it is a Welsh lullaby. Can anyone confirm this ? What does the song
	title mean ?  What is the song is about, and who wrote it ? When ?

Yes, it is a Welsh lullaby.  The title means, well, "lullaby".  "suo" means
"to soothe" and "gan" is song.

The theme of the first verse, which is the only verse I've seen, is a mother
telling her child to sleep while she rocks him/her.  "Cwsg, fy mhlentyn, ar
fy mynwes" => "sleep, my child, on my breast".

Roger
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,)
Subject: Re: Rhiannon
Organization: Clarkson University
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 17:57:37 GMT

From article <BuBHKu.Av@acsu.buffalo.edu>, by v102qqq5@ubvmsc.cc.buffalo.edu (HIGH PRIESTESS):
> 
>  Anyone who has information about a coven of witches in Wales called the 
> DAUGHTERS/SISTERS OF THE MOON please send info.
>                                        High Priestess

Why did you put Rhiannon as the subject, was she related to this group.
I though she was a celtic horse goddess (also called Epona). Or was she
a person in one of Fleetwood Mac's songs?

													GW
From: oconnell@vms.macc.wisc.edu (Kevin Patrick O'Connell)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: What is Ireland's national anthem? Is there one?
Date: 15 Sep 92 14:55:28 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin Academic Computing Center

> 
>And my own flame who asks a question like does Ireland have a National Atheam
>in the first place.  Name me one country that doesn't have one and is older
>than 5 years in existance.
> 

*I* dared ask such a question.  No one has mentioned this song in the 
time I've been reading this newsgroup, and I think this thread has 
been interesting and enlightening.  Thanks to all who posted!
From: dresler@cabell.vcu.edu (Dan Resler)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Irish Times subscription info--got any??
Date: 8 Sep 92 14:02:03 GMT
Organization: Virginia Commonwealth University

oconnell@vms.macc.wisc.edu (Kevin Patrick O'Connell) writes:

>In article <1992Sep2.225934.18074@cabell.vcu.edu>, dresler@cabell.vcu.edu (Dan Resler) writes...

>>oconnell@vms.macc.wisc.edu (Kevin Patrick O'Connell) writes:
>> 
>>>Are there well-loved columnists in the Irish Times (or other 
>>>publications?  
>> 
>>yes
>> 
>>Dan Resler
>>Virginia Commonwealth University
>> 

>Jeepers, Dan.  Obviously, there are well-loved (or at least 
>controversial) writers at most large papers.  Who are they?  What do 

<grin> Sorry, I couldn't resist. Two columnists who either `get up
your nose' or you love are Fintan O'Toole and Kevin Myers. Both seem
to have a very high opinion of themselves (well, at least Mr. Myers)
and their columns _usually_ make for interesting reading. There are
others that are quite good but I can't remember their names (I'm
going from memory here as I don't get the Irish Times). 

>Is there such a thing as Irish smut?  

You must be joking. Even so-called `soft-porn' like Playboy is illegal in 
Ireland. Sex does not exist in Ireland (with the exception of the Gay Byrne 
show).

> Finance magazines?  

Yep, they've got these. Don't have any titles, though.

>Scientific Irishman?  

<grin> ... <giggle> ... <loud laughter> ...

-- 
Dan Resler                             
Dept. of Mathematical Sciences        email: dresler@cabell.vcu.edu
Virginia Commonwealth University
Richmond, Virginia, USA 23284-2014
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic,soc.culture.europe
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Eagles Reaches Church of Asatru
From: Aengus Lawlor <RBYAML@rohvm1.rohmhaas.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 09:26:28 EDT
 <1992Sep4.170305.28830@octel.com><1992Sep5.144441.8680@vax.oxford.ac.uk> <1992Sep6.201612.7807@octel.com>
Organization: Rohm and Haas Company
Organization: Rohm and Haas Company
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 09:13:56 EDT
From: Aengus Lawlor <RBYAML@rohvm1.rohmhaas.com>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Eagles Reaches Church of Asatru
 <1992Sep5.144441.8680@vax.oxford.ac.uk> <1992Sep6.201612.7807@octel.com>

In article <1992Sep6.201612.7807@octel.com>, dfair@octel.com (Donald Fair) says:
[stuff deleted]
> I believe you owe them an apology.
Donald, you basic ignorance of Irish history (for example, the Romans never
invaded Ireland) doesn't put you in a very strong position to be directing
others.

Your postings are cluttered and confused, and you read things into other
peoples posts (you decry the claim of "racial purity" that nobody every made)
yet you get extremely defensive when your "arguments (I'm being generous) are
dismissed.

If you believe that this group is owed an apology, I believe you're the best
man for the job :-)

By all means, keep posting. But don't expect people to allow your assumptions
to go unchallenged. Especially when they're wrong!

>Donald H. Fair       Software Sanitation Eng.

Aengus
--
RBYAML@ROHMHAAS.COM                    Aengus Lawlor
RBYAML@ROHVM1.BITNET                   (who used to be ALAWLOR@DIT.IE)
"How about some of that famous Dublin wit, Barman?"
"Certainly, sir. Would that be Dry or Sparkling?"
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,)
Subject: Re: Celtic Cross
Organization: Clarkson University
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 15:23:07 GMT

From article <1992Sep11.094906.15090@dcs.qmw.ac.uk>, by mmh@cs.qmw.ac.uk (Matthew Huntbach):
> 
> I would have thought that part of being truly interested in your
> celtic heritage would involve a concern for accuracy.
> 
> Matthew Huntbach

Because of the new requirement for accuracy let me suggest some
"academically sound" material on the Picts.

"Foul Hourdes: The Picts in the North East" by I. Ralston and J. Inglis
Pub. Aberdeen University (this was a catalog which was associated with
an exhibit of Pictish symbol stones). 1984.

"The Symbol Stones of Scotland" by A. Jackson
Pub. Orkney Press (1987) This is by a senior lecturer in the Social
Anthropology Dept. at Edinburgh Univ.

"The Pictish Trail" by A. Jackson
Pub. Orkney Press (1989) Same author as above.

"The Problem of the Picts" by F.T. Wainwright (1955)
Out of print, but is a well regarded "scholarly" work.

															GW
From: mike@inti.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: the name "Bhetty"
Date: 14 Sep 92 20:55:24 GMT
Reply-To: mike@inti.lbl.gov (Michael Helm)
Organization: N.I.C.E.
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.128.82

Damian M. Lyons writes:
>Its pretty common in Irish speaking parts of Ireland to refer to
>someone by their forename with one of the parents fornames appended to

Or a nickname ...

>I often wondered if this naming convention gave rise to the use of
>double name such as `Billy-Joe' and `Mary-Lou' which seems prevalent ...
>of whisk(e)ys) areas of Appalacia.  This could be tossed if if the

I don't know about that but it was sure common, in large Irish-American
families, or at least mine, to be called "Bill's Mike" or "Liz's Mike"
& likewise for others eg Bill's Joanne or Mamie's Bobby -- possibly
because, like the other poster said, the number of different surnames
& 1st names is so small (& extended families so large) that you had 
to have something else to identify a person.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: ballan@csuvax1.csu.murdoch.edu.au (Christina Ballantyne)
Subject: Re: What is Ireland's national anthem? Is there one?
Organization: Murdoch University
Date: 11 Sep 92 01:33:21 GMT

skaamjm@ucl.ac.uk (Matthew Moore) writes:


>I have heard that the Celtic fans sing it in English, certainly my
>impression is that singing the Gaelic words makes it less accessible
>to many folk. It still gets more of a cheer than the English nat
>anthem.

Can someone tell me what the 'English National Anthem' is?
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christina Ballantyne,                              >< Tel. (09) 360 2289
Educational Services & Teaching Resources Unit,    >< Fax. (09) 310 8480      
Murdoch University,
From: gln@cs.arizona.edu (Gary L. Newell)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Route 66
Date: 8 Sep 92 20:07:27 GMT
Organization: U of Arizona CS Dept, Tucson


 I'm afraid who sent out the original request for info about rte 66 and so
please excuse this obviously non-celtic post. But anyway, I recently saw
another article about the "Rejuvenated Route 66" in last weekends paper.
It talked about some of the sights in New Mexico along the old highway. 
So, for the person that was curious about it, my best guess is that 
the roadway is still pretty much intact in much of the Southwestern
portion of the US - and appears to be undergoing some sort of re-birth
with many of the old-styled roadside tourist traps springing up and
drawing customers. I suppose it makes sense, as many of the visitors to these
spots were probably young kids travelling the road with their parents 30+
years ago.....


				gln
From: dam@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (David Morning)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Scots or Picts (was Celtic alchoholism?)
Date: 11 Sep 92 15:23:00 GMT
Organization: Glasgow University Computing Science Dept.

walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,) writes:


>My source (which I will provide later) isone of the present "experts" on the
>Picts and he would agree that the Picts (from the latin Picti which
>referred to the fact that men and women charged into battle naked and
>painted) were P-celts, but as I remember he argues that they used a
>matrilinear line of succession.

I don't know how often I've heard this story about people painting their
bodies and rushing naked into battle.

Have these people any idea how cold it is here????
Hypothermia perhaps??

I've heard a number of explanations as to why they were called Pictii, ranging
from the popular one above to the more plausable reference to their method
of passing on the culture by drawings and pictures as they had no written
form.

Somehow, rushing around naked in the Ledhills, let alone some of the more
barren areas of the Highlands, doesn't seem very likely.


...and for the next trick....climatic change :-)

Dave

--
From: mlhb@mammoth.dr.att.com (Sky Warrior)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: What clan and what tartan?
Date: 9 Sep 92 14:44:15 GMT

This is my first posting to s.c.c, so I hope you'll excuse any errors.

My husband comes from Irish and Scottish origins.  We know his Irish side
very well, but his Scottish origins are murky at best.  On a trip to 
Edinburough, his mother found a number of Scottish Bonhams listed on 
a war memorial.  So far, we've had no luck tracking down what clan the Scottish
Bonhams are out of and what tartan would be appropriate.

Does anyone out there have a clue?  Thanks in advance!

-- 
-----------------------------                                              
SKY WARRIOR aka MLH Bonham  | "Good tea.  Nice House." -- Lt. Worf
mammoth!mlhb@druhi.att.com  |----------------------------------------------
mlhb@drutx.ATT.COM          | SKY WARRIOR RACING KENNELS - Coming to an
                            | Iditarod near you!
----------------------------- 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,)
Subject: Re: What clan and what tartan?
Organization: Clarkson University
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 19:33:56 GMT

From article <43657@skye.dcs.ed.ac.uk>, by morna@dcs.ed.ac.uk (Morna J Findlay):
> 
> 
> Yes, the clam system was restricted to the highlands. 
> 
> 
> M
> 
And as I remember it was the Blue Oyster Cult in the East. (Only
kidding).

														GW
From: mitchell@Software.Mitel.COM (Robert Mitchell)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Suo Gan "Empire of the Sun" song
Date: 9 Sep 92 13:21:49 GMT
Organization: Mitel. Kanata (Ontario). Canada.



Hello,

  The Steven Spielberg movie "Empire of the Sun" opens with a song
called "Suo Gan".

  In response to a posting in rec.arts.movies 3 people have told me that 
it is a Welsh lullaby. Can anyone confirm this ? What does the song title mean ?
What is the song is about, and who wrote it ? When ?

  There are several people interested in this little mystery.

  Thanks.

/Rob
From: 00mddwyer@bsu-ucs.uucp
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: test...
Date: 10 Sep 92 18:55:19 GMT

test, sorry
From: rahman@ces.cwru.edu (Rahman A. Soomro)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Rain Relief Fund
Date: 9 Sep 92 19:25:29 GMT
Organization: Computer Engineering and Science, Case Western Reserve University
NNTP-Posting-Host: easy.ces.cwru.edu


Dear friends,

Recent rains in Pakistan have caused devastating effects on the 
daily life of the Pakistani people. Scores of people have lost there
lives and more than a million have been homeless.

	I appeal to you to help our brothers and sisters in need
and donate some money to help them. Please send your contribution
(tax deductible) with your name and also I request you to collect 
donations from any source -- your colleagues at work, friends, business
associates, customers, persons from any nationalities and backgrouds
to help people in trouble. 

	We are tying you help suffering peoples, who are suffering
from disease and malnutrition.

Please mail your contributions to:

Pakistan Rain Relief Fund
4105 Providence drive
St. Charles, MO 63304
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: unichaoi@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Una M Nichaoimh)
Subject: Re: Bonham
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 15:57:44 GMT

In article <20262@drutx.ATT.COM> mlhb@mammoth.dr.att.com (Sky Warrior) writes:

    (piglet discussions deleted)  

>"bonhomme"  which means "good man".  This seemed to suggest possible Norman 
>influence (you know 1066 and all that stuff).  The pronunciation seems to 

1169 ?

,
U.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: jk@spock.retix.com (John Keegan)
Subject: Re: What is Ireland's national anthem?  Is there one?
Organization: Retix, Santa Monica CA
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 17:20:13 GMT

Here are the words in English (Ulick already gave the Irish version)

I'll sing you a song, a soilders song,
With Cheering rousing chorus,
As round our blazing fires we throng,
The Starry heavens o'er us.
Impatient for the coming fight,
As we wait the mornings light,
Here in the silence of the night,
We'll chant a soilders song.
	Chorus
Soilders we are whose lives are pledged to Ireland,
Some have come from a land beyond the wave.
Sworn to be free, no more our ancient Sireland,
shall shelter the despot or the slave.
Tonite we man the Bearna Boaghail in Eirn's
cause came woe or weal,
'Mid cannons' roar and rifles' peal we'll chant a Soilders Song


-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

John Keegan			GO DODGERS FOR '93	
Retix				Tel: (310) 828-3400 Ext 651
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
From: cockburn@edieng.enet.dec.com (Craig Cockburn)
Subject: Newspapers on the net?
Organization: Digital Equipment Co. Ltd., Reading, England
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 16:42:05 GMT


Hi,
	Does anyone know if any of the main newspapers in Scotland or Ireland
have e-mail access to the Internet, and if so, what their e-mail addresses are.

thanks
	Craig

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Craig Cockburn, Digital Equipment Co. Ltd, Reading, England.     Suas
  Internet: cockburn@edieng.enet.dec.com                           leis
  UUCP:..!decwrl!edieng.enet.dec.com!cockburn                      a'
                                                                   Gha\idhlig!
  Views here are my own, and are not necessarily those of Digital
From: athos@apple.com (Rick Eames)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.celtic
Subject: Re: Scots or Picts (was Celtic alchoholism?)
Date: 11 Sep 92 17:25:26 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.celtic
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.

In article <1992Sep10.193125.25222@news.clarkson.edu>,
walker@sun.soe.clarkson.edu (Graham Walker, 227 West Old Main,268-3847,)
wrote:

> My source (which I will provide later) isone of the present "experts" on the
> Picts and he would agree that the Picts (from the latin Picti which
> referred to the fact that men and women charged into battle naked and
> painted) were P-celts, but as I remember he argues that they used a
> matrilinear line of succession.

I'd love to see this source.  I have been working on a screenplay entitled
Pendragon for some time now and in it I have made Gawain, Lancelot and Gwen
all Picts.  As such, any information on Picts would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers!
--
Rick Eames
athos@apple.com
My opinions are my own, thank you very much!
HERSCHENSOHN for US Senate.  Just say "No" to 6 years of Boxer!