From: ziad@eng.umd.edu (Ziad K. Cheiban)
Subject: Re: The Hadith about Muslims killing the Jews / Hamas vs. Sunnah
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 92 23:16:08 GMT
Organization: Project GLUE, University of Maryland, College Park
Distribution: world 

In article <1992Dec22.184532.15688@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
[...]
>
>>>Furthermore, there is absolutely NO basis for such a comparison. Israel is
>>>the moral opposite of Nazi Germany in EVERY way.
>>
>>  This subject is certainly debatable. After all, both of them are based on
>>the assumption that a certain nationality is "chosen" or better than the rest.
>
>No, they're not.  Zionism certainly isn't.  I defy you to prove this.
>Indeed, Herzl wasn't even religious.  Neither was Weizmann.  Or the vast
>majority of the founders of Zionism.
>
While not claiming that Zionism is the equivalent of Nazism, I find it
hypocritical to deny that Zionism is devoid of racism or for that matter
that a majority of founders of Zionism or of Israelis do not view Arabs
in a racist way. Furthermore Zionism is in essence a colonialist ideology
which views the rights of the indigenous people as expendable. Early
Zionist often made the claim that every other colonial movement has made
that the indigenous population was too primitive to see all the benefits
that it would reap from being colonized and that hence it should be made to
accept those "benefits" by force. A point of view which was widely accepted
and practiced by European colonial powers, but which today is viewed as
self-serving, hypocritical, and racist.

>>>Secondly, Israeli soldiers are not there to kill Palestinians, as you
>>>claim. They are there to protect fellow Jews.
>>
>>  A nice claim belied by the facts of history. If my brother takes my
>>neighbour's home and kicks him out of it, and I protect my brother against
>>attempts by my neighbour to regain his home, am I there to oppress, or am I
>>there to protect my brother?
>
>You might try reading some history too.  Israel is not the responsible
>party for the 1948 war.  Palestinians have their own brothers to thank
>for their status as refugees.
>
You might try reading some history yourself other than Zionist propaganda 
that is. You'll find out that Israel only accepted the partition plan
as a first step towards military expansion, that the Arab states only
entered Palestine to prevent king Abdallah's attempt to annex what was
left of Palestine in collusion with the Zionists. And that contrary
to a widely held belief it was the Zionists not the Arabs who broadcast
statements in Arabic encouraging the Palestinians to flee while the
Arabs actually broadcast orders to stay put. And that the Zionists
"encouraged" the Palestinians to flee by perpetrating the massacre
at Deir Yassine which was chosen purposedly as one of the villages
which had not allowed armed Arab presence. After that Zionist forces
drove into Arab villages with loudspeaker trucks broadcasting messages
such as "run for you lives unless you want another Deir Yassin."
Furthermore two major Palestinian towns, Lydda and Ramle which numbered
50,000 to 70,000 were stampeded into a mass exodus by the Hagannah
as a result of a direct order given by David Ben Gurion to generals
Yigal Allon, and Yitzhak Rabin.  
 "own brothers to thank for their status as refugees." 
Can you define "own brother" for us, there seems to be a misunderstanding.


"We shall accept a state in the boundaries fixed today--but the boundaries
of Zionist aspiration are the concerns of the Jewish people and no external
factor will be able to limit them."
David Ben Gurion, Memoirs Vol 4 p. 151
cited in Simha Flapan The Birth of Israel: Myths and Realities p. 53

"We must expel Arabs and take their places"
Letter from D. Ben Gurion to A. Ben Gurion, 5 October 1937
cited in Shabtai Teveth, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs p. 89

"We will cancel the partition of the country(between Jews and Arabs) and 
we will expand throughout the land of Israel." 
David Ben Gurion, Protocol of the meeting of the Jewish Agency Executive
7 June 1938, Central Zionist Archives, 28, cited in Benny Morris,
The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem,1947-1949 p. 24

Note that all these statements were made some ten years before the actual
events it wasn't the spurr of the moment.
"own brothers" indeed!
>
>-- 
>"How sad to see/A model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport
>A battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -Tim Rice,"Chess"
>     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
>  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder