From: ataylor@nmsu.edu (Nosy)
Subject: Re: Sweeping Generalizations About Men By Feminists (Was: Feminism & Women's Studies)
Organization: NMSU Computer Science
	<ATAYLOR.92Sep2133915@gauss.nmsu.edu> <Btz0M4.Erx@encore.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1992 00:00:56 GMT


	Most text retained for context.

<In article <Btz0M4.Erx@encore.com> aaldrich@encore.com (Al Aldrich) writes:
<ataylor@nmsu.edu (Nosy) writes:
<>In article <Btux1o.Fs0@encore.com> aaldrich@encore.com (Al Aldrich) writes:

<>[snip]

<><   myself, I have learned to not let my defenses
<><   get the better of me, because for the most part, in my experience
<><   anyway, sweeping generalizations about `men' usually are more or
<><   less true to a large extent.

<>	Aldrich should learn a bit more about "feminism" before
<>	making this statement.

<I freely admit I am not a scholar of feminism..so what? 

	So, before making such a statement as "sweeping
	generalizations about 'men' usually are more or
	less true" it might be a good plan to find out
	just what the set "sweeping generalizations about
	men by feminists" includes.

	Signing blank checks can be dangerous, you see.

<I cannot comment on my own observations?

	Perhaps Aldrich can show where I have ever said this?


<>	He might read the writings of this woman, for example:
<>"All men are rapists, and that's all they are."
<>				-- Marilyn French

<Off hand, I would agree that this is an absurd and obviously incorrect
<statement. 

	It is also a "sweeping generalization about men".
	
<I would have to see it in context to comment.
 
	Ms. French is a widely-read author. "The Women's
	Room" has been used as a text in some college
	courses.

<By the way..I `might' read the writings of this woman, but I
<probably won't with this as the only endorsement for it. I tend to
<seek out writings that present problems and possible solutions rather
<than just hate writings. 

	Shrug. While Aldrich's choice of reading material
	is interesting, it's beside the point.

<Again though..it appears to me that some here
<go through this and other feminist writings just to pick out poor
<choices of words to support their claims that all feminists are the
<same, which is even more sterotyping..

	This is interesting; Aldrich *appears* to be saying
	that while stereotypes of "feminists" are false,
	sweeping generalizations (or stereotypes, if you will)
	about "men" are "more or less true".

	While this isn't a rare position for a "feminist"
	to take, it's unusual to see it stated baldly.

<>	Or this woman:
<>"Men especially love murder."
<>				-- Andrea Dworkin

<Same comment..

	Well, considering that Dworkin speaks to thousands
	of people around North America every year, has 
	written several books (all of which are still in
	print so far as I know), appears on radio/tv
	shows from time to time *and* has been instrumental
	in getting some very ugly laws passed....I'm surprised
	that Aldrich hasn't heard of her.

	Furthermore, I'm a lot more likely to take *her*
	as an example of "a feminist" than Aldrich simply
	because she is in the public eye *and* has not,
	to my knowledge, been repudiated by any other
	feminist that is in the public eye; NOW has
	never criticized her, for example, to the best
	of my knowledge.

<>	Aldrich can assert that French and Dworkin aren't
<>	"femininists", he can admit to loving murder and
<>	being a rapist or he can allow as how there's 
<>	more to "feminism" than he thought.....

<   Of course there is more to feminism than I am versed in.. again I freely
<   admit that. I do not claim to be an expert. I am just speaking for
<   myself and my own observations and interactions with other men and
<   women who call themselves feminists whom I have never heard make such
<   ridiculous statements as you quote. Perhaps I did make a poor choice
<   of words in light of your understanding of feminism.

	I make no claim to being an "expert" on feminism.
	I do, however, know what a "sweeping generalization"
	is.

<>	But to state that sweeping generalizations about
<>	men are "more or less true" is absurd.

<It is not absurd if you asked me what I meant by that. What you quoted
<were accusations. 

	I'm not going to get into a meta-discussion over "what
	is a sweeping generalization". There are books which
	contain defininitions of words and phrases....

	Note that a sweeping generalization (or stereotype)
	can be accusatory...

<What I meant by generalizations were things like..
<" Men are always trying to `fix' things ".. By and large true in
<my experience.. " Men are so competitive "..again, this seems to hold
<water in my experience. This is what I meant by sweeping generalizations.

	Snort.
	They are hardly much better than the examples I cited.

	"Men are always trying to 'fix' things"; this says to
	me that men cannot fix things, try to do so and fail
	(usually making the problem worse). It's the "Dagwood
	Bumstead" stereotype, what some call "Father Knows
	Zilch". 
	
	Turn the statement around: "Women are always trying to
	'fix' things". Is it a stereotype? Is it "more or
	less true"?

	"Men are so competitive"; this is usually intended
	as a criticism of men who aren't "caring" enough
	to satisfy the speaker. It is often delivered in
	a voice dripping with sarcasm....


<   If you had asked me instead of labeling my statement absurd, I would
<   have told you that.

	Swell. Your examples are stereotypes that are false.

<   I can see that if the above statements are a reflection of what most
<   here feel to be the feminist `party line' why there is so much
<   animosity. Whew..what a bunch of hate flying here.. 

	Please point that "projector" in a different direction.
	Thank you.

<Does anyone out
<   there feel that the above 2 statements ARE correct or lend any
<   credibility to them at all? Baffled.

	While I obviously don't believe that French or Dworkin's
	stereotypes of men are correct, they ARE quotes that
	certain branches of "feminism" are fond of. 
	Those branches of "feminism" have been "in my face"
	from time to time....
	
	However, let me answer the question with a question.
	
	Have you ever read "Men, Women and Rape" by Susan
	Brownmiller? It was widely praised when first
	published and is still used as a college textbook,
	I am informed.

	Given the main theme of that book, can anyone
	answer Aldrich's question?

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