From: jenk@microsoft.com (Jen Kilmer)
Subject: Re: Verbs and gender connotations
Date: 22 Jan 93 08:40:35 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corporation

(Michal Leah Peri) writes:
>(Duane Hentrich) writes:
>
>>(Michal Leah Peri) writes:
>>|>(Duane Hentrich) writes:
>>|> >(Michal Leah Peri) writes:
>>|> >|> Because society deems it worse to fuck someone who's drunk than to be
>>|> >|> fucked while one is oneself drunk.
>>|> 
>>|> >The above statement seems to make grave implications about the subject and 
>>|> >object of the verb 'to fuck'. I propose that the implications (man fucks,
>>|> >woman is fucked; man - active, woman - passive) are wrong. Either partner
>>|> >can be physically passive during coitus and thus conception is not
>>|> >predicated on men being active and women being passive, no matter the
>>|> >social norms.

Of course. Where did Michal state that MEN fuck and WOMEN are fucked? As
I recall, Michal was answering a question which used the verb "to fuck",
and therfore used it in her reply.

BTW, You seem to be saying that Michal said, "Because society deems
it worse for a man to fuck a woman who's drunk that for a woman to be 
fucked while she is herself drunk".  While that is *ONE* reading of what
she said, it is *ONLY* one. By choosing to use the pronoun "one", she said
that, AND she said

  Because society deems it worse for a woman to fuck a man who's drunk
  than for a man to be fucked while he is himself drunk.

AND 

  Because society deems it worse for a woman to fuck a woman who's drunk
  than for a woman to be fucked while she is herself drunk.

AND

  Because society deems it worse for a man to fuck a man who's drunk
  than for a man to be fucked while he is himself drunk.

>>The implications are in the use of the verb "to fuck". Especially the
>>implication that to fuck is negative and a male action, whereas to be
>>fucked is negative, a badge of victimhood and a female action. These
>>are cultural here in America, and where I could believe many don't use
>>the term in this way it is a part of English.
>>Sometimes gender slips into the back door.

Which is why, I think, Michal deliberately used -gender-neutral-terminology-.

This pushes a button on me. Like many other women here on the net,
I have spent years pursuing "men's" interests and working at "men's" jobs.
I have been told directly and indirectly that I shouldn't like math,
or computers, or major in computer science, or work at microsoft, or
_succeed_ at microsoft, because "girls/women don't do that". With this
goes the fact, and it _IS_ a fact, that the typical CS major/support
tech/test engineer is a man, which means that I stand out. 

Of course, so do people of color, particularily non-asians. But no one
talks about "hey, whites, let's do this next" or "hey, we need to hire
a new white" or "gee, let's get the whites together and do ________". 
Yet it's assumed that "guys", "men" and "manpower" routinely mean me.

All this adds up to the fact that when someone says something using
gender-neutral terms, then I accept it as meaning either gender. And
when I state something in gender-neutral terms, I *DAMN* well expect
others to listen to WHAT I SAID and not quibble out the goddamn culture
which is totally fucked up on gender roles anyway. I mean, do you REALLY
think that men can't be as nurturing and loving and caring as women???
Do you really think that men MUST be into making money and MUST make
more than who they date? If you do, there's no hope for you in this
area.

I am also, btw, committed to the proposition that most of the cultural
gender-role differences are CULTURAL and not innate. Men & women ain't
all that different, folks. And, most importantly,

         how any individual acts is not necessarily dictated 
         by their gender.

>Do other posters agree with the assessment that the verb "to fuck"
>irrevocably carries masculine gender?  

Of course not. Neither does "get laid", as evidenced in "Thelma and
Louise" (From memory- Louise: "Oh good. I'm so happy for you - you finally
got laid properly." Thelma: "Now I see what all the fuss is about!" :)

>What other verbs carry gender connotation?

"to menstruate" is the only one I can think of which dictates gender.
Connotations vary, and are usually inaccurate.

-jen


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