From: vlahos@cubism.portal.com (Harry Vlahos)
Subject: Re: 3.0 speed compared to 2.x
Keywords: 3.0 speed
Organization: -Independent NeXT Developer-
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 07:17:05 GMT

In article <1992Oct8.201225.8249@liveware.com> todd@liveware.com writes:
> In article <1992Oct6.133611.6559@cube.handheld.com> jmd@cube.handheld.com  
(Jim  
> De Arras) writes:
> > In article <BvnJ4A.pL.2@cs.cmu.edu> nash+@cs.cmu.edu (Richard Nash) writes:
> > > >In article <dillon.0oq2@overload.Berkeley.CA.US>  
> > dillon@overload.Berkeley.CA.US  
> > > >(Matthew Dillon) writes:
> > > >> 
> 
> [ reality check needed here ]
> > > 
> > > Richard V. Nash
> > > nash@vi.ri.cmu.edu
> > 
> > I'm afraid you are not in touch with reality, here!  Even the current NeXT  
> > apologists admit it's slower.  I have 32 meg of ram, and do not normally  
swap  
> > to disk.  And a 1.4 gb harddisk, and do not usually access data from the  
> > network.
> > The same setup as before, only 30-50% slower in the user interface.
> > 
> > Jim
> 
> <<Rambling on>>
> 
> I must agree with Jim. We have had no less than 28 megs in our NWS
> and cubes and have been testing Beta 1, 2 and have Gold installed.  It is
> without a question the slowest upgrade since 6.0.7 to 7.0 on the mac
> (which by the was was the last straw and made us stop Mac development).
> I agree with Eric Scott (EPS) that 3.0 does seem to be a serious problem
> and historically a bad release for software (how about Ultrix 3.x ;').
> 
> Man, 3.0 is so slow in the UI, that people using 32 or even 16 megs
> on a 2.x system come and see 3.0 and say they don't want to upgrade.
> That my friend is bad news for NeXT.  Reputation for having over
> priced hardware, bad delivery promises, super hyper active sales
> mouths, leaks from the top, and worst of all poor OS performance.
> EPS or someone stated they couldn't believe the speed decrement.
> All of you believe it! 3.0 is at least 50% slower without swapping.
> Man with swapping comes into place the /private/vm/swapfile grows
> very fast and to boot the machine slows way down.
> 
> I used to have 15-20 apps running because I don't quit apps very often,
> constantly working on various projects it seems.  So I push stuff
> a bit.  But on a 32 meg 400 HD workstation this didn't push
> paging much with 2.x.  But on the exact same system, 3.0 allows
> maybe 8-9 hungry apps without swapping.  So in a way, my machine
> and my work practices have been changed.  My machine has been
> 'changed' due to a different reality of functionality.  As well
> I have been changed by 3.0 due to its added functionality, but
> more importantly it has changed me to be somewhat less productive
> over time.  This adds up over 365 days or at least until
> the NeXT slower system comes out ;'<
> 
> Bottom line for me is NeXT must match software releases with increased
> hardware capabilities at a minimum.  NeXT is NOT doing this
> with a 40 Mhz 040 system. A 15%-20% CPU speed increase (even if they
> implement swaptimizer hardware/software) will NOT bring my machine back
> to the speed and productivity functionality which it has under 2.x.
> 
> Too much to weigh since it is not just a hardware issue.  I do
> get added functionality with DB and 3D kit as well as other kit
> software.  But the bottom line is daily productivity.  Most NeXT
> users won't be using 3Dkit stuff, and likely business are going
> to be primarily the DBKit users.
> 
> UI speed (preceived or not) is largely responsible for making me
> happy with a machine that costs as much as a NeXT turbo costs or even
> a 'nitro'.
> 
> <<Rambling off>>
> 
> Todd Nathan
> Liveware Corporation
> -- 
> --
> Todd Nathan			Voice: (303) 484-7607 (w)
> Liveware Corporation		Email: <todd@liveware.com>
> 

Don't you think that this is similar to the situation we were
faced with 1.0 and 2.0 ?

1.0 was very slow (even on systems with 16MB and a hard disk).
2.0 fixed the speed problems and everything ran much faster.
3.0 is slow once again, but I bet its because of all the new 
additions to the OS.  Give them a chance to optimize 3.0 and
I bet by the time 3.1 (????) comes out, that the speed improves !
I'm willing to wait.  I am still productive on my machine.  I just
have to adjust and close the applications that I am not using,
and be patient with other apps.

Also, I think that NeXT needs a 3.1 release to fix all the bugs
that were uncovered in 3.0, and they need it soon!!!
No matter how long of a beta cycle you have, 
the problems will show up when you have a large mass
of users using your software on a daily basis.

-HV