HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian)
Subject: Re: Cultural Appropriation and the New Age
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 22:19:45 GMT

David Fiander raises the issue of "voice"--speaking from the point of view of
someone in a culture other than one's own, and he makes an interesting point
thereby. Can I write a story about (say) a teenage Inuk girl who goes online
with a story? Can I describe her feelings, her reactions, when her computer
screen fills up with compliments (indeed raves) from people thousands of
kilometers away?

In nonfiction I wouldn't dare; the most I could would be to interview her and
quote her as accurately as possible. In fiction, however, I might well take
shot at it, and I think I'd be justified. In fiction, we are not just writing
anthropology; we are writing myth, and different cultures play different
roles in each culture's myths. Sometimes they're stupid and
self-congratulatory, like the mythic "redskin" fighting the mythic cowboys.
(From the Indians' point of view, violent pastoralists on
horseback--cowboys--must have looked much as the Huns looked to the Romans.)

I may know very few Inuit (one, currently an artist in residence at my
college, is an awe-inspiring sculptor), but the mythic Inuit should be as
legitimate a subject for me to write about as the (much more boring)
community-college faculty with whom I work every day. As long as we
understand that my mythic Inuit are really an aspect of myself and my vision
(very myopic) of the world, I can present them any way I choose. *However,*
if my mythic characters are sharply at variance with my readers'
understanding of real Inuit, they may toss my story aside as self-indulgent
crap.

The man I was named for, Will Crawford, was an American artist who knew the
old west very well; he once went to a western with my grandfather, but hated
the movie because it showed the Apaches going into battle on horseback.
Apparently the real Apaches rode to the battlefield and then got off and ran;
knowing this was enough to ruin the movie for Will.

Now, what do I do when I write fantasies about completely fictitious
cultures, as I am now doing? Whose "voice" am I appropriating when my
characters come out of four different cultures? And is that really any
different from writing a story about a Jamaican fruit vendor or an Atlanta
divorce lawyer?


--
Crawford Kilian   Communications Department   Capilano College
North Vancouver BC Canada V7J 3H5
Usenet: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca
Internet: ckilian@first.etc.bc.ca

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,alt.news-media
From: dasher@well.sf.ca.us (D Anton Sherwood)
Subject: Re: Morally good hypertext
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 02:25:38 GMT

In article <15213.2b37800c@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu> wagner@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu writes:
>In fact, usenet is growing so fast that the speed required to keep all
>that information stored will exceed c (3x10^10 cm/s) soon. No trouble
>with relativity, though, because no information is being transmitted.

Er, I'm a bit stupid -- what has capacity got to do with speed?
-- 
Anton Sherwood                                       dasher@well.sf.ca.us
+1 415 267 0685              1800 Market St #207, San Francisco 94102 USA
"We all hate poverty, war and injustice, unlike the rest of you squares."
Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:22997 news.answers:4689
From: TROUTMAN@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu
Subject: Flatulence (WAS Ngaio Marsh info requested)
Organization: C.C.S.O.
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 15:02:09 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.211949.24317@eff.org>
mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin) writes:
 
>In article <BzGyG6.2t1@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin) writes:
>>
>>"Tama" contains a
>>Rabelaisian piece about farting ....
>
>I'm trying to think of some non-Rabelaisian pieces about farting. Are
>there any?
>
>--Mike
>
>
>
>--
There is a Mark Twain short story, the name of which escapes me at present.
It's *very* bawdy and hilarious.  I've been told it's in the most recent
Library of America edition of Twain's work.  I've got a photocopy at home
and can check the title if there's interest.
Leslie T.
TROUTMAN@VMD.CSO.UIUC.EDU
From: hoosiers@carson.u.washington.edu (Mary Loveless)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Is a bimbo the modern name for hussy?
Date: 21 Dec 92 17:11:42 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <JMC.92Dec18145313@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU writes:
>John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305 says:

>I'm beginning to get it.  Is a bimbo what a Valley girl become when
>she drops out of high school?
>>It seems that the use of bimbo to refer to males is not in popular
>use.

How true, as the Valley girl would say in the margin of her Harlequin
Romance.  But couldn't Joseph Andrews or Candide be referred to as Bimbos,
if such were accepted usage? 

Mary Loveless  hoosiers@carson.u.washington.edu
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All of my opinions are self-righteously my own and **certainly** have
nothing to do with the University of Washington.

"I wonder how I'd look in *Madonna's* underwear."  Zippy the Pinhead
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Request: History books
Date: 22 Dec 92 18:59:38 GMT
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org

In article <1h79vvINN7fr@meaddata.meaddata.com> joem@meaddata.com (Joe Mehrle) writes:

>I am determined to self-educate myself extensively on American History
>and Politics.

It is wise of you to start with the easier task of self-educating yourself;
self-educating others is immensely difficult. Especially when it comes to
reflexive verbs.
 


--Mike




-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution
mnemonic@eff.org| The only one that's coming."
(617) 864-0665  |                           
EFF, Cambridge  |                   --Robert Frost
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Ransome's Missee Lee
Date: 3 Jan 1993 15:22:57 GMT
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: oas.stanford.edu

Just finished the tenth of Ransome's twelve volumes of novels. Difficult
to imagine a better-rounded role model for kids than the title character:

	(1) A 22-gong Taicoon (more or less equivalent 
	    among Chinese pirate-cum-warlords to a Capo 
	    di Tutti Capi).
	
	(2) A Latin scholar at Cambridge

	(3) Cox'd the Second Newnham boat.

*Missee Lee*, like *Peter Duck*, is one of the "imaginary" stories.

						RABworm
From: jzimm@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Joann Zimmerman)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Non-rabelaisian farts
Date: 28 Dec 92 21:11:06 GMT
     <1992Dec28.154053.5439@eff.org> <1992Dec28.181127.2040@lunatix.uucp>
     <1992Dec28.195834.8065@eff.org>
Organization: UT Art History
X-UserAgent: Nuntius v1.1



In article <1992Dec28.040433.3019@athena.mit.edu> Keith Morgan,
kamorgan@athena.mit.edu writes:
[Concerning my signature, which I hope to hell will reappear below in its
correct place]

>	I have nothing to say. I just liked this enough to see it
>	again. Source please?

The final chapter ("The Dream") of Julian Barnes' _A History of the World
in 10 1/2 Chapters_. The protagonist's gone to heaven, and finds that
even the "immortals" are mortal; at some point they decide to toss in the
towel on this living forever stuff. Apparently the least likely to give
up at an early stage are the heavenly equivalent of the raberati.
Contentious, ornery types ...

I recommend the entire book; it's even got a nice art history essay
tucked into the middle, complete with color repro of the painting in
question.
--

"They like sitting around reading all the books there are. And then they 
love arguing about them. Some of those arguments go on for millenium 
after millenium. It just seems to keep them young, for some reason, 
arguing about books." -- Julian Barnes          

Joann Zimmerman (jzimm@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: kamorgan@athena.mit.edu (Keith Morgan)
Subject: Re: Stark Naked
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1992 18:32:22 GMT

Miriam Nadel writes:

>>If the book in question is by Norton Juster, that gives me more incentive
>>to go out and get it.  I wasn't aware that he had written anything but
>>_The Phantom Tollbooth_ which should not be given to children too young
>>to understand the humor.

Laura Mallott writes:
>That was a wonderful book!  I'll never forget Miles and his car and Tick Tock,
>the watchdog, tho I haven't read it since I was in high school (too many years
>ago to mention).  I've lived since then in great fear of leaping to the Isle
>of Conclusion and having to swim the sea to get back :).  Thanks for reminding
>me.  Did you know it was made into a movie too?  

	I hesitate to mention TV on Christmas Day (or on r.a.b.) but
FYI The Phantom Tollbooth is on TNT tonight at 2a.m. eastern. It's
preceded by another interesting film, The 5,000 Fingers of Dr T. at
midnight. I plan to tape both because of this thread.

	Keith




--

Keith Morgan kamorgan@athena.mit.edu
In the end nothing could be said of his work except that it was
preposterous and true and totally unacceptable. Edward Whittemore
From: gaillard@panix.com (Ed Gaillard)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Bullshit (was: *Any* kind of r.a.b. split, or at least a *serious*
Date: 25 Dec 92 01:16:59 GMT
Organization: Radio Free Hades

hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu continues flaming:


>I wrote:

>>>Oh, bullshit.  Bullshit!  BULLSHIT!!  There's no brand-new culture!  There 
>>>are no new rules for politeness and propriety!  What people like you have
>>>to understand is: This group is not some kind of shadow play, this is Real
>>>Life. You are talking to Real People. 

>Mike Godwin wrote:

>>I strongly doubt that you and Barbara Hlavin have any significant 
>>disagreement on this particular issue. 

>Oh really?  I will quote these words of Barbara's for you again:

>>>>People who engage in what passes for communication here have to 
>>>>understand that we, collectively, form a brand-new culture, one 
>>>>that has a life of its own.  Not everyone is comfortable with its 
>>>>manners and rituals as they've more or less evolved, just as not 
>>>>everyone in the world is comfortable eating with knives and forks, 
>>>>or with chopsticks; it's not Their Way.  But it's the way it is 
>>>>*here*. 

>How would you interpret these remarks?

The article you are quoting seems never to have arrived at this site,
so I lack context, but...  I wouldn't use the word "culture", but the
net *is* a new medium, and *does* have its own style of discourse,
which is still evolving.  *You* are part of its evolution;  take care
that you help it evolve in a way you think *good*.

>And let me again quote these words of Barbara's:

>>>>this goes with the territory.  One person's attempt at formality 
>>>>and courtesy will inevitably be interpreted by *some*one, *some*where 
>>>>as rudeness or indecisiveness.  There's no end to the ways we are 
>>>>capable of misinterpreting one another. 

>And I said:

>>>Ever read the Gettysburg Address? 

>*Have* you ever read it?  

>Can you say that any attempt at courtesy and politeness is rendered
>meaningless because someone, somewhere, won't understand it?  Is there no
>common ground of civility?  Of decency?  Of honor?

Do you believe that you have been civil, decent, and honorable in this
debate?  If so, I am afraid there is no such common ground.

>If there is no such common ground, why do we bother talking at all?

Because we love the sound of our own voices, of course. (do I need a
8^) here?)

>Heather
>HHENDERSON@vax.clarku.edu

-ed g.
<gaillard@panix.com> 
I can't see the lines I used to think I could read between.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: twain@milton.u.washington.edu (Barbara Hlavin)
Subject: Re: non-fiction reading (was Re: _Dog Soldiers_ by R. Stone, a wild ride!)
Summary: Books!  Books! 
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 17:50:19 GMT

In article <BzL9xt.6Gt@wsrcc.com>, alison@wsrcc.com (Alison Chaiken) writes:

|> By the way, does anyone on this group ever read NON-fiction?   I read
|> non-fiction about 50% of the time, but I would guess that I am in the
|> minority here.

INVENTING THE TRUTH: THE ART AND TRUTH OF MEMOIR.  William Zinsser 
introduces this collection of essays with his explanation of the 
difference between memoir and autobiography (memoir makes little 
or no attempt to be objective; it focuses on a limited period of 
subjective memory and emotion; it is essentially anecdotal and 
given a narrative shape).  Russell Baker, Annie Dillard, Alfred 
Kazan, Toni Morrison, and Lewis Thomas are the contributors, and 
in the course of writing about writing memoirs, they write exquisite 
memoirs.  I was so moved by Baker's contribution that I started to 
cry on the bus.  

ADAM'S TASK: CALLING ANIMALS BY NAME, Vicki Hearne.  A philosopher 
and a student of semantics, Hearne is also a professional trainer of 
dogs and horses.  This book is her attempt to share her perception 
of how humans and other animals communicate with each other, and what 
a human being has to learn and acknowledge about her own limitations 
in order to participate in another, but uncannily similar, order of 
being.  My confidence in her broke down at the end, when she writes 
about the gentle and loving nature of pit bulls, all stories of whose 
bad behavior are false and malicious.  I simply didn't believe her any 
more; she had compromised my trust in her judgment, and I was much 
dismayed.  I finished the book in a kind of dejection.  But the first 
two-thirds are exciting and absorbing reading. 

--Barbara
From: gxs11@po.CWRU.Edu (Gary Stonum)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Stark Naked
Date: 24 Dec 1992 17:22:31 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: gxs11@po.CWRU.Edu (Gary Stonum)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc12.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy) says:

>The _American Spectator_ lists as its law firm "Solitary, Poor, Nasty,
>Brutish and Short".

	Isn't the Spectator's  a bit clumsy?  
	Especially since in Gravity's Rainbow
Pynchon punched it up as Salitari, Nash, De Brutus, and Short
(approximately:  I'm too lazy to find the exact reference),
and he wasn't necessarily the first to coin what sounds
like a staple of college humor magazines, circa 1954.

Stonum
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Ngaio Marsh info requested
Date: 21 Dec 1992 21:57:55 GMT
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
NNTP-Posting-Host: oas.stanford.edu

Mike Godwin writes:

	I'm trying to think of some non-Rabelaisian pieces about farting. 
	Are there any?


Geoffrey Chaucer's *THE CANTERBURY TALES*. The Miller's Tale?

						RABworm
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: msmorris@watsci.UWaterloo.ca (Mike Morris)
Subject: Re: Homeschooling
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 17:42:55 GMT

                                    Friday, the 1st of January, 1992

Michael McDonald writes:
          Why do you shudder at the prospect of Donna Shalala, dare I ask?

Actually, I'm hopeful enough, but when I was a postdoc at UWM (Univ. of
Wisconsin-Milwaukee, the ``M'' to distinguish it from Madison I
guess), she was president or chancellor or whatever of the UW system
(or was it just the Madison campus?), and she seemed to me to be a
source from whence all the PC/multicultural mushiness flowed. Being
(shall we say) somewhat absolutist about free speech myself, her
pronouncements and policies around campus hate speech were a particular
grievance. The only thing I have about her directly to hand is D'Souza's
_Illiberal Education_, which features a few quotes by her, but, as I've
said before, I don't trust D'Souza's journalism very much. Anyway, Robert
Maynard Hutchins she's not.

                Mike Morris
       (msmorris@watsci.uwaterloo.ca)


Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,misc.books.technical,alt.internet.services,comp.org.eff.talk
From: kko@fraser.sfu.ca (Samuel Ko)
Subject: Re: The Online BookStore Announcement: The Internet Companion
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 01:30:42 GMT

gt1293c@cad.gatech.edu (Scott Radeker) writes:

>Most likely, he wrote it as Senator Al Gore in August, but by the time the
>book went to print, he had won the election and it would no longer have been
>accurate to call him anything but VP.

No ... He is not yet the VP, Dan Quayle is. So why not use VP-elect 
instead? ...

Samuel ... being a 101% fan of Bill Clinton, I am also a bozo ...
From: ah@dunaad.co.uk (Alan Hunter)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Impromptu
Date: 1 Jan 93 16:12:38 GMT
Organization: Dunathad

The RABworm said:

	After a morning's sail out into San Francisco Bay in a fresh
	breeze and myself suitably wrapped up in foulies,

between first footings we skipped up to The American Monument. This is a
50ft phallic symbol erected at the top of crumbling 300ft cliffs, above
the atlantic with views across to Northern Ireland. The wind was around
7.5 with gusts up to Force 9ish (when 18 stone men start to move sideways
involuntarily), but a clear day for all that. Spume everywhere, breakers on
all the overfalls. The monument remembers the Tuscania and the Otranto
which sank here in February and October 1918 respectively, built by the
Americal National Red Cross, with a personal (stone) wreath from Woodrow
Wilson. The Tuscania sank with around 250 US servicemen.  At the bottom of
this monument is inscribed, without attribution: 

	On Fame's eternal camping ground
	Their silent tents are spread
	While Glory keeps with solemn round
	The bivouac of the dead

It may sound like McGonnigle in warm wet San Fransisco, but its curiously
affecting when you're there and the weather's bad.  There was a Glaswegian
sitting in the shelter of the monument, accompanied by two girls, one
Aberdonian, one German. He had his Christmas present in his hand, a
maginificent three part flask with a choice of Brandy, Schnapps or Rum. I
chose brandy. 

Alan


-- 
Alan Hunter
Johnson Hunter Ltd
Isle of Islay, Scotland
A.Hunter@dunaad.co.uk          fax: +44-496-2336         voice: +44-496-2286
From: yarnot@babbage.csus.edu (Jan Yarnot)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: 92 in rabreview
Date: 30 Dec 92 05:07:46 GMT
Organization: Moi?

In article <1992Dec30.031231.9912@athena.mit.edu> kamorgan@athena.mit.edu (Keith Morgan) writes:
>
>		Jan Yarnot writes:
>
>		I've had an eventful r.a.b. year.  I read some 220
>		books     	[....]
>
>Whoa, hold on just a minute. 220? That's incredible, I am in awe. Now
>I know why I have these areas of ignorance, I just *thought* I read a
>lot. I guess compared to nothing, maybe I do. 220? Wow. Incredible.
>
>Keith - who's signing off to read something NOW

Nono... there are some things you must remember.  The first is that these
are mostly not real elbow-bender books.  They are popcorn-mysteries, which
are generally a one-a-day thing with me.  The occasional elbow-bender I do
read, I take longer with.

Secondly, I was only working part-time, with summer off.  (Now the job is gone,
there should be more time yet.)  

Third, I had foot surgery which meant 6 weeks mostly off my feet, enthroned
in a recliner with the remote control and a pile of books.

And fourth, priorities.  No one would ever dare eat off my floors.  And I
firmly believe the reasons convenience foods were invented was for convenience.
Hence, the pierogis I made for our traditional Christmas Eve Polish (almost)
dinner were in won ton wrappers... I failed to see why I should work all day
making noodles when the Kikkoman company had already done it for me.

Some people have a life, and may not read as many books.  Big deal.

(Fun time today: I was going to a movie, there were library books due,
son was going to library, so I asked him to take the books.  He remembered,
and did so... the unread, not-yet-due stack, not the ready-to-return bunch.
So I had to go anyway, and so I've mislaid a couple I was hoping to read soon, 
till they get back to the correct branch and on the shelf.)
>--
>
>Keith Morgan kamorgan@athena.mit.edu
>In the end nothing could be said of his work except that it was
>preposterous and true and totally unacceptable. Edward Whittemore


--
---Jan Yarnot, net.grandma.-- | When you go out into the world,
			      | watch out for traffic, hold hands,
                              | and stick together.
CSUS depends on my every word.|             --Robert Fulghum    
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: emery@dr_no.mitre.org (David Emery)
Subject: Re: Mangled song lyrics (was: Cultural Appropriation and the New Age)
Organization: The Mitre Corporation, Bedford, MA
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 17:40:47 GMT

One of the best parts of the Messiah is a song to the virtues of
our furry woolen friends:

	Oh we like sheep!

(Amazing what shifting a few commas will do for parsing...)
			dave
From: hoosiers@carson.u.washington.edu (Mary Loveless)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Project B.F.D. (was: An apology)
Date: 21 Dec 92 18:14:01 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <2gdrs2d@lynx.unm.edu> rsquires@cyclops.eece.unm.edu (Roger
Squires) writes: 
>> mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin) writes: 
>>I can't speak for every case (and, yes, I've run into several of these
>>folks myself), but it seems to me that lots of folks are very easily
>>intimidated. They're not used to having their opinions exposed to the kind
>>of quick and seemingly ruthless critique that Usenet provides. I agree
>>very much that oldtimers should take reasonable steps to make newcomers
>>feel welcome, but they're cheating the newcomers if they soften their
>>opinions in order to preserve the latter's good feelings.

Mike

>	Similar charges of persecution are to be seen on talk.origins
>	between creationists and old-timer evolutionists, and there,
>	as here, it's pretty bogus.
>rms

"Persecution" seems a strong term to this pushy newcomer.  I think those
who have posted in this thread have valid things to say.  I think that
those who respond to a post should cultivate a certain amount of
self-awareness.  To those who drive a mental bulldozer but think of it as
a sporty vintage car, and to those who who assume the mental vehicle is
fragile and likely to break down in heavy traffic, when it actually
accelerates beautifully and could survive a serious collision, I say: 
Look at what you really have, in terms of thinking power, knowledge and
background and celebrate it, don't use it as a weapon.  A volley ball,
though.......?  

And, this to me as much as any other, remember there is a person, not a
target, on the other end of the exchange.  I mean, I owe Mikhail Zeleny a
sincere apology for my posted announcement that he had been possessed by
the spirit of Isaac Asimov, recently deceased author of _The Sensuous
Dirty Old Man_ (as well as many hundreds of books on other topics).  

Mary Loveless  hoosiers@carson.u.washington.edu
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All of my opinions are self-righteously my own and **certainly** have
nothing to do with the University of Washington.

"I wonder how I'd look in *Madonna's* underwear."  Zippy the Pinhead
------------------------------------------------------------------------------