From: rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: I'm God.
Date: 29 Sep 92 20:15:35 GMT
Organization: CERL-EE, Georgia Institue of Technology

In article <1992Sep29.165853.28041@linus.mitre.org> m23364@mwunix (James Meritt) writes:
|In article <69009@hydra.gatech.EDU> rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts) writes:
|}The OT points to Jesus the Christ and the NT reveals him as the fulfillment
|}of the OT and tells of his return.  Many other historians have records
|}about Jesus and his death at Pontius Pilate's hand.  I'm going
|}to try and post some of these over the weekend.
|
|And to hop back, here is what I posted earlier that I'm relatively sure
|that you conveniently forgot:

Oh you mean your refutation of all of the Bible. :-)
This is where you give possible contradictions without really 
disproving the Bible, correct?

|	_Evidence_That_Demands_a_Verdict_ is a book that presents "historical
|evidences for the christian faith".  It is produced by the Campus Crusade for
|Christ, Inc and was prepared by a Magna Cum Laude graduate of Talbot 
|Theological Seminary.  
|}			1. Born of the seed of woman
|
|GEN 3:15  And I will put enmity between thee and the  woman,  and
|between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou
|shalt bruise his heel.
|
|			Like, who isn't?  EVERYONE (iaw the Bible, anyway) is
|			a descendent of a woman.

Everyone but Jesus was born of a man's seed.  Jesus was born miraculously
with only the aid of a human female.

|}			2. born of a virgin
|	James J. Lippard writes:

How does JJJ wisdom compare with Jesus?  Jesus taught the disciples, after his
resurrection, about ALL THAT IS IN THE SCRIPTURES THAT RELATE TO HIMSELF -
this from the Law, Prophets, and the Psalms.

|	"Probably the most famous of these 
|	prophecies is the prophecy that Jesus would be born of a virgin.  
|	The gospels of Matthew (1:18-25) and Luke (1:26-35) both claim 
|	that Jesus was born of a virgin, but only Matthew (1:23) appeals 
|	to the Hebrew scriptures as an explanation for why this should be 
|	the case.  The verse appealed to is Isaiah 7:14, which reads:  
|	"Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign:  Behold, a 
|	virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call his 
|	name Immanuel."
|		There are a number of difficulties with this passage.  As 
|	many have noted, the Hebrew word translated as "virgin" in this 
|	verse is "almah," which is more accurately translated simply as 
|	"young woman."  The Hebrew word "bethulah" means "virgin."  In the 
|	book of Isaiah, "bethulah" appears four times (23:12, 37:22, 47:1, 
|	62:5), so its author was aware of the word.  In the New American 
|	Standard translation of the Bible, all other appearances of 
|	"almah" are translated simply as "girl," "maid," or "maiden" (viz:  
|	Genesis 24:43, Exodus 2:8, Psalms 68:25, Proverbs 30:19, Song of 
|	Solomon 1:3, 6:8).  Thus the claimed fulfillment adds a 
|	biologically impossible condition which is not even present in the 
|	original prophecy(1).
|		Another problem is that nowhere in the New Testament does 
|	Mary, Jesus' mother, refer to him as "Immanuel."  Thus we have no 
|	evidence that one of the conditions of the prophecy was ever 
|	fulfilled.

But, since Jesus is God, he was God with us (the meaning of Immanuel).

|		But the most serious problem with this alleged messianic 
|	prophecy is that it has been taken out of context.  Looking at the 
|	entire seventh chapter of Isaiah, it becomes clear that the child 
|	in question is to be born as a sign to Ahaz, King of Judah, that 
|	he will not be defeated in battle by Rezin, King of Syria, and 
|	Pekah, son of the King of Israel.  Jesus' birth was some seven 
|	centuries late to be such a sign.

The witness (his life, works, past and future) of Jesus is the 
heart/fulfillment/spirit of all prophecy. Rev 19:10
Jesus taught the disciples how the OT pointed to himself - better than
you can know.

|		J. Edward Barrett (1988, p. 14) points out evidence that 
|	early Christians rejected the virgin birth.  One piece of 
|	Barrett's evidence is that in 1 Timothy 1:3-4, the writer (who may 
|	or may not be the apostle Paul) advises that his audience 

Oh.

|	"instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines, nor to pay 
|	attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to 
|	mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God 
|	which is by faith."  The earliest gospel, Mark, lacks an account 
|	of Jesus' birth, as does John, the latest gospel.  Virgin birth is 
|	obviously quite relevant to genealogy, and both Matthew and Luke 
|	present Jesus' genealogy in close proximity to the story."

endless genealogies was the phrase - not genealogy.

|}			3. son of God
|		See above.
|}			4. seed of Abraham
|	James J. Lippard writes:
|	"	There are various alleged genealogical prophecies about the 
|	ancestry of the Messiah.  It is claimed that Genesis 22:18 and 
|	12:2-3 are prophecies that the Messiah will be a descendent of 
|	Abraham, but these verses say nothing about the Messiah.  They say 
|	simply that the descendents of Abraham will be blessed."

I believe if you look you will see that the whole world will be blessed
through Abraham's offspring - again, Jesus is the spirit of prophecy
and he had ample time to teach his disciples this, after his resurrection.

|GEN 21:12  And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be  grievous  in
|thy  sight  because  of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in
|all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her  voice;  for
|in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
|
|Excuse me, but these are the verses he referred to.  I see what appears
|to be a promise that the nation will descend from him (as taught in
|sunday school) and the birth of Isaac, but zip about Christ.

"in Isaac" refers to the line of Issac and not Ishmael's line.

|}			5. son of Isaac
|
|GEN 21:12  And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be  grievous  in
|thy  sight  because  of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in
|all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her  voice;  for
|in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
|
|Looks more like instructions to name Abraham's son Isaac to me...

Again, I mention the spirit of Jesus being the spirit of prophecy.

|}			6. son of Jacob
|
|NUM 24:15  And he took up his parable, and said, Balaam  the  son
|of Beor hath said, and the man whose eyes are open hath said:
|NUM 24:16  He hath said, which heard the words of God,  and  knew
|the  knowledge  of the most High, which saw the vision of the Al-
|mighty, falling into a trance, but having his eyes open:
|NUM 24:17  I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him,  but
|not  nigh:  there  shall  come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre
|shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the  corners  of  Moab,
|and destroy all the children of Sheth.
|NUM 24:18  And Edom shall be a possession, Seir also shall  be  a
|possession for his enemies; and Israel shall do valiantly.
|NUM 24:19  Out of Jacob shall come he that shall  have  dominion,
|and shall destroy him that remaineth of the city.
|NUM 24:20  And when he looked on Amalek, he took up his  parable,
|and said, Amalek was the first of the nations; but his latter end
|shall be that he perish for ever.
|
|Looks more like a promise that some mean somabitch will rule Israel
|and do some serious butt-kickin'.  This is Jesus?!?!?
|
|}			7. tribe of Judah
|Genesis 49:7 Cursed be their anger, for it was fierce; and their wrath
|for it was cruel: I will divide them in Jacob and scatter them in Israel.
|Genesis 49:8 Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: they 
|hand shall be at the neck of thine enemies; thy father's children
|shall bow down before thee.
|Genesis 49:9 Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art
|gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion, who shall
|rouse him up?
|Genesis 49:10  The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver
|from between his feet, until Shiloh come, and unto him shall the gathering
|of the people be.
|
|Excuse me again, but this reads as the standard run of promises given.
|This is in the section "Jacob's dying blessing", and it is the standard
|"who is in charge" speach.  And there is the minor detail that Shiloh
|is desolate ruins with the remains of a synagogue...
|}			8. family line of Jesse
|ISA 10:33  Behold, the Lord, the LORD of  hosts,  shall  lop  the
|bough  with  terror:  and  the high ones of stature shall be hewn
|down, and the haughty shall be humbled.
|ISA 10:34  And he shall cut down the thickets of the forest  with
|iron, and Lebanon shall fall by a mighty one.
|ISA 11:1  And there shall come forth a rod out  of  the  stem  of
|Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
|ISA 11:2  And the spirit of the LORD shall  rest  upon  him,  the
|spirit  of  wisdom  and  understanding, the spirit of counsel and
|might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
|ISA 11:3  And shall make him of quick understanding in  the  fear
|of  the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes,
|neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
|ISA 11:4  But with righteousness shall he  judge  the  poor,  and
|reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite
|the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of  his
|lips shall he slay the wicked.
|
|Excuse me, but this appears to be talking about a quite destructive individual,
|who causes the downfall of Lebanon, and slays the wicked with his words.
|Sounds much more like a conquering war-king than Jesus.

Jesus, as you obviously don't know, will come back and be a conqueror -
read Revelations - who is that might king? It is Jesus the Christ.

|}			9. house of David
|
|JER 23:3  And I will gather the remnant of my flock  out  of  all
|countries  whither  I have driven them, and will bring them again
|to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.
|JER 23:4  And I will set up shepherds over them which shall  feed
|them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall
|they be lacking, saith the LORD.
|JER 23:5  Behold, the days come, saith  the  LORD,  that  I  will
|raise  unto  David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and
|prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
|JER 23:6  In his days Judah shall  be  saved,  and  Israel  shall
|dwell  safely:  and  this is his name whereby he shall be called,
|THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
|JER 23:7  Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD,  that
|they  shall  no  more  say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the
|children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
|JER 23:8  But, The LORD liveth, which brought up  and  which  led
|the  seed  of  the  house of Israel out of the north country, and
|from all countries whither I had  driven  them;  and  they  shall
|dwell in their own land.
|
|I don't recall this description as fitting Jesus.  Sounds more like a great
|unifying King.  Even if Josh was 100% right on his assertions on 4-9,
|if it were the last it HAD to be the earlier.  Not, even by his assumptions,
|vaguely independent events.

I'd have to look closer, but the whole of the OT points to a unification
of Israel and the destruction of her enemies - Jesus is the one who
will do this - You know he is Lord - it says the Lord liveth.  Malachi 3
tells us from the words of the Lord Almgiht that he (the Lord) will come
and he will be the messenger of the covenant - Jesus was that messenger.

|	James J. Lippard writes on 5,6,7,8,and 9:
|	"Other 
|	claimed prophecies about the Messiah's ancestry are that he will 
|	be of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10, Micah 5:2), of the family 
|	line of Jesse (Isaiah 11:1, 10), and of the house of David 
|	(Jeremiah 23:5, 2 Samuel 7:12-16, Psalms 132:11).  Some of these 
|	do appear to be genuine messianic prophecies, but others simply 
|	seem to refer to future kings.  All of these verses refer to 
|	kings--and thus none have been fulfilled by Jesus.

Again, I appeal to Jesus being the spirit of prophecy.

|		But the problems for these prophecies run even deeper.  Is 
|	Jesus actually of the tribe of Judah, the family line of Jesse, 
|	and the house of David?  The sole evidence for this is two sets of 
|	genealogies for Jesus, in Matthew 1:1-17 and Luke 3:23-38.  Both 
|	of these trace Jesus' lineage through his father, Joseph.  If the 

No, Luke traces through Mary.

|	virgin birth story is taken seriously, then Jesus lacks the proper 
|	ancestry.  On the other hand, if the genealogy in Matthew is taken 
|	seriously, then Jesus has as an ancestor Jeconiah (Matthew 1:12), 
|	of whom the prophet Jeremiah said, "Write this man down as 
|	childless, a man who will not prosper in his days, for no man of 
|	his descendants will prosper sitting on the throne of David or 
|	ruling again in Judah." (Jeremiah 22:30)  The genealogy in Luke 

That is why Joseph did not father Jesus - the Holy Spirit empowered
Mary to conceived.  Jesus was so born of a women's seed.

|	suffers from the same problem, since it includes Shealtiel and 
|	Zerubbabel, both of whom were descendents of Jeconiah."

I'd have to check this.

|}		       10. born at Bethlehem
|		Funny thing.  While McDowell gives Micah 5:2 as
|	the "prophecy", his discussion doesn't mention it at all.
|
|MIC 5:1  Now gather thyself in troops, O daughter of  troops:  he
|hath  laid siege against us: they shall smite the judge of Israel
|with a rod upon the cheek.
|MIC 5:2  But thou, Bethlehem  Ephratah,  though  thou  be  little
|among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth
|unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose  goings  forth  have
|been from of old, from everlasting.
|MIC 5:3  Therefore will he give them up, until the time that  she
|which  travaileth  hath  brought  forth:  then the remnant of his
|brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.
|
|And Micah goes on talking about a military conquest of Assyria and the
|gentiles.  Doesn't sound a lot like the Prince of Peace...

There is more to Jesus than just the Prince of Peace, for he will
bring peace, but those who are his enemies, will suffer.

|	James J. Lippard writes:
|	"	A second claimed birth prophecy is that Jesus would be born 
|	in the city of Bethlehem, cited in Matthew (2:1-6), Luke (2:4-7), 
|	and John's (7:42) gospels.  Of these, Matthew and John 
|	specifically refer to prophecy in the Hebrew scriptures.  The 
|	passage referred to is Micah 5:2, which reads:  "But as for you, 
|	Bethlehem Ephrathah, too little to be among the clans of Judah, 
|	from you one will go forth for me to be ruler in Israel.  His 
|	goings forth are from long ago, from the days of eternity."  
|	"Ephrathah" is the ancient name of Bethlehem (Genesis 35:19, Ruth 
|	4:11) but, to confuse matters, "Bethlehem Ephrathah" is also the 
|	name of a person:  Bethlehem the son (or grandson) of Ephrathah (1 
|	Chronicles 4:4, 2:50-51).  This prophecy could therefore refer to 
|	either a native of the town or to a descendent of the person.  If 
|	the latter, Jesus does not qualify since neither of his alleged 
|	genealogies (more on these later) list either Bethlehem or 
|	Ephrathah.  If the former (more likely since Bethlehem was the 
|	birthplace of King David, from whom the Messiah is supposed to be 
|	descended), then Jesus qualifies by birthplace(2), but fails to 
|	meet the condition of being "ruler in Israel."  Christians claim that 
|	this is a prophecy which will be fulfilled at the Second Coming."
|	...
|	"The gospel of John says nothing about Jesus being from 
|	Bethlehem, but instead says that he is from Nazareth in Galilee.  
|	See John 1:45-46 and 7:41-42,52.3There are two common attempts 
|	made to resolve these contradictions.  The most common among 
|	evangelical Christians is to claim that Luke's genealogy is that 
|	of Mary, not Joseph.  This fails to explain the repeated 
|	convergence followed by divergence as you trace the ancestry 
|	backward.  It also fails to explain why the Luke genealogy 
|	contains almost twice as many ancestors as Matthew's in the same 
|	time period.  A second explanation is that each case of divergence 
|	is the result of Levirate marriage.  That is, the discrepant 
|	fathers are brothers of each other, and when one died the other 
|	married his brother's wife.  This explanation also fails to 
|	explain the difference in number of ancestors."
|}		       11. presented with gifts
|
|PSA 72:10  The kings of Tarshish and of  the  isles  shall  bring
|presents: the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts.
|PSA 72:11  Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations
|shall serve him.
|PSA 72:12  For he shall deliver the needy  when  he  crieth;  the
|poor also, and him that hath no helper.
|PSA 72:13  He shall spare the poor and needy, and shall save  the
|souls of the needy.
|
|		According to the prophecy, the Kings of Tarshish, the isles,
|		Sheba and Seba were suppose to be there.  But no Kings are
|		mentioned, just Magi.
|
|And as for the poor:
|
|MAT 26:11  For ye have the poor always with you; but me  ye  have
|not always.
|
|MAR 14:7  For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye
|will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always.
|
|
|JOH 12:8  For the poor always ye have with you; but  me  ye  have
|not always.
|
|AKA "looking out for number one".

Maybe, being poor is not the worst thing that can happen to someone.
I grew up rather unwealth and I appreciate what I have more than
many who grew up with enough.  I didn't go hungry, but we didn't
have much either.

|}		       12. Herod kills children
|	James J. Lippard writes:
|	"	Another prophecy related to the birth of Jesus I wish to 
|	address is that the Messiah would be born at a time when King 
|	Herod was killing children.  Only the gospel of Matthew (2:16-18) 
|	makes this claim about a prophecy of Jeremiah (31:15).  But the 
|	prophecy in question states that "A voice was heard in Ramah, 
|	weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children; and 
|	she refused to be comforted, because they were no more."  "Rachel 
|	weeping for her children" refers to the mother of Joseph and 
|	Benjamin (and wife of Jacob) weeping about her children taken 
|	captive to Egypt.  In context, the verse is about the Babylonian 
|	captivity, which its author witnessed.  Subsequent verses speak of 
|	the children being returned, and thus it refers to captivity 
|	rather than murder.  A further problem is that no historian of the 
|	time seems to have taken note of Herod's alleged mass slaughter of 
|	male children.  Flavius Josephus, who chronicled Herod's abuses, 
|	makes no mention of it.
|		Matthew goes on to claim that to evade Herod's murders, Jesus 
|	was taken as a child to Egypt.  This is done, according to Matthew 
|	2:15, in order "that what was spoken by the Lord through the 
|	prophet might be fulfilled, saying, 'Out of Egypt did I call my 
|	son.'"  This is a reference to Hosea 11:1, which is not a 
|	messianic prophecy at all.  It is a reference to the Exodus of the 
|	Jews from Egypt."
|	COX, RALPH LUTHER, III writes:
|	"       After Jesus's birth in Bethlehem, Matthew tells about a
|	quick (and elsewhere unmentioned) excursion to Egypt, as if he
|	wishes to liken Jesus to Moses.  This was done to escape an
|	alleged infanticidal rampage of the king, Herod.
|
|	       [Mt 2.15]  ...and remained there until the death of
|	       Herod.  This was to fulfil what the lord had spoken:
|	       "Out of Egypt I have cal-led my son."
|
|
|	What the lord really said was this.
|
|	       [Hosea 11.1]  When Israel was a child, I loved him. 
|	       And, out of Egypt I called my son.  The more I called
|	       them (my people), the more they went from me; they
|	       kept sacrificing to the Ba'als, and kept burning
|	       incense to idols.
|
|	Matthew conveniently omits the rest of Hosea's oracle.  But, it
|	was indeed Israel that, once called out of Egypt, wanted to
|	return.  This is history.  Jesus is certainly not being spoken of
|	here.  And, if we are to draw some kind of parallel here, we wind
|	up with a Jesus that flees and resists G'd.   Again, this prophecy
|	is just not as convincing as Matthew probably had hoped.

Again, as I keep pleading - Jesus was the spirit of prophecy.
|	...
|	       As for Herod and his infanticide, it is rather unlikely
|	that such an event actually occurred.  One never knows, but the
|	event is not mentioned or alluded to anywhere else in the Bible,
|	nor is it mentioned in any of the secular records of the time. 
|	Herod was particularly unliked in his reign, and many far less
|	evil deeds of Herod were carefully recorded.  This might be a
|	prime example of how events were added to Jesus's life to enhance
|	the message of the church's gospel."
|}		       13. his pre-existence
|		Now how the heck are we suppose to tell that?!?!?
|		Interestingly enough, reincarnation also would fit the
|		prophecy.  Reincarnation was a not-uncommon belief
|		at the time/place.  Besides which, his "prophecy" is:
|
|MIC 5:2  But thou, Bethlehem  Ephratah,  though  thou  be  little
|among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth
|unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose  goings  forth  have
|been from of old, from everlasting.
|
|Which doesn't, to me, appear to have anything to do with it.

Again, as I keep pleading - Jesus was the spirit of prophecy.

|}		       14. he shall be called Lord
|	COX, RALPH LUTHER, III writes:
|	"The word "lord" is often mistakenly capitalised by Christian
|	bibles to denote divinity in this lord.  But, in the Hebrew, the
|	word is "adoni," and no capitalisation exists.  Adoni simply means
|	"lord," a generic term as we would use it.  It is used often in
|	the scriptures to refer to kings and to G'd.  It is merely an
|	address of respect.  
|	      There is nothing in the text itself to imply that the word
|	refers either to divinity or to the messiah-king."

Adoni is translated to the greek equivalent of Lord (kurios, I believe)
in the Septuagint, the greek version of the OT.

|}		       15. shall be Immanuel (God with us)
|	James J. Lippard writes:
|		Another problem is that nowhere in the New Testament does 
|	Mary, Jesus' mother, refer to him as "Immanuel."  Thus we have no 
|	evidence that one of the conditions of the prophecy was ever 
|	fulfilled.

Covered already.

|}		       16. shall be a prophet
|		This isn't saying much.  Almost EVERYONE seemed to qualify
|		themself.
|}		       17. priest
|PSA 110:3  Thy people shall be willing in the day of  thy  power,
|in  the  beauties  of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou
|hast the dew of thy youth.
|PSA 110:4  The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou  art  a
|priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
|PSA 110:5  The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through  kings
|in the day of his wrath.
|PSA 110:6  He shall judge among the heathen, he  shall  fill  the
|places  with  the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many
|countries.
|PSA 110:7  He shall drink of the  brook  in  the  way:  therefore
|shall he lift up the head.
|
|Sounds more like a temporal ruler, and a not-too-friendly one at that.  Lotsa 
|wrath, striking, dead bodies, wounds, and such.  And where else has this order
|been mentioned?  I can find ONE:
|
|GEN 14:17  And the king of Sodom went out to meet him  after  his
|return  from the slaughter of Chedorlaomer, and of the kings that
|were with him, at the valley of Shaveh, which is the king's dale.
|GEN 14:18  And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread  and
|wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
|GEN 14:19  And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of  the
|most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:
|GEN 14:20  And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered
|thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.
|
|So it looks like a very temporal priest-king, heavy on slaughter, feasts,
|and such.  Apparently like others in the area.  And egypt, too, if I recall.
|priest-kings have been popular.

Jesus said he came note to abolish but to fulfill - 
which is to say he came to complete the law.  

The following verses illuminate this - read all
of Hebrew 7-10, if you are interested.

Heb 7:11   If perfection could have been attained through the 
  Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to
  the people), why was there still need for another priest to
  come--one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron?
Heb 7:12   For when there is a change of the priesthood, there
  must also be a change of the law.

Heb 8:6   But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to
  theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to
  the old one, and it is founded on better promises.
Heb 8:7   For if there had been nothing wrong with that first
  covenant, no place would have been sought for another.
Heb 8:8   But God found fault with the people and said : "The time
  is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant
  with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.

Heb 8:13   By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one
  obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
Heb 9:1   Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and
  also an earthly sanctuary.

Heb 10:5   Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
  "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you
  prepared for me;
Heb 10:6   with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not
  pleased.
Heb 10:7   Then I said, 'Here I am--it is written about me in
  the scroll-- I have come to do your will, O God.'"
Heb 10:8   First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt
  offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you
  pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made).
Heb 10:9   Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your
  will." He sets aside the first to establish the second.

|}		       18. judge
|ISA 33:20  Look upon Zion, the city  of  our  solemnities:  thine
|eyes  shall  see  Jerusalem a quiet habitation, a tabernacle that
|shall not be taken down; not one of the stakes thereof shall ever
|be removed, neither shall any of the cords thereof be broken.
|ISA 33:21  But there the glorious LORD will be unto us a place of
|broad  rivers  and streams; wherein shall go no galley with oars,
|neither shall gallant ship pass thereby.
|ISA 33:22  For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is  our  lawgiver,
|the LORD is our king; he will save us.
|ISA  33:23   Thy  tacklings  are  loosed;  they  could  not  well
|strengthen  their  mast,  they could not spread the sail: then is
|the prey of a great spoil divided; the lame take the prey.
|ISA 33:24  And the inhabitant shall not say, I am sick: the  peo-
|ple that dwell therein shall be forgiven their iniquity.
|ISA 34:1  Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people:
|let  the  earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all
|things that come forth of it.
|ISA 34:2  For the indignation of the LORD is  upon  all  nations,
|and  his  fury  upon  all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed
|them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
|ISA 34:3  Their slain also shall be cast  out,  and  their  stink
|shall  come  up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be
|melted with their blood.
|ISA 34:4  And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and  the
|heavens  shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host
|shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as  a
|falling fig from the fig tree.
|ISA 34:5  For my sword shall be  bathed  in  heaven:  behold,  it
|shall  come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to
|judgment.
|ISA 34:6  The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is  made
|fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the
|fat of the kidneys of rams: for the  LORD  hath  a  sacrifice  in
|Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.
|ISA 34:7  And the unicorns shall come down  with  them,  and  the
|bullocks  with  the  bulls;  and  their land shall be soaked with
|blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.
|ISA 34:8  For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, and the year
|of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
|ISA 34:9  And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and
|the  dust  thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall be-
|come burning pitch.
|ISA 34:10  It shall not be quenched  night  nor  day;  the  smoke
|thereof  shall  go  up for ever: from generation to generation it
|shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
|ISA 34:11  But the cormorant and the bittern  shall  possess  it;
|the  owl  also  and  the  raven  shall  dwell in it: and he shall
|stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emp-
|tiness.
|ISA 34:12  They shall call the nobles thereof to the kingdom, but
|none shall be there, and all her princes shall be nothing.
|ISA 34:13  And thorns shall come up in her palaces,  nettles  and
|brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation
|of dragons, and a court for owls.
|ISA 34:14  The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the
|wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow;
|the screech owl also shall rest there, and  find  for  herself  a
|place of rest.
|ISA 34:15  There shall the great owl make her nest, and lay,  and
|hatch, and gather under her shadow: there shall the vultures also
|be gathered, every one with her mate.
| 
|
|It is clear to me (in context) that they are NOT referring to any
|Prince of Peace but a vicious, but a warrior/king.

Again, you don't have the full concept of who Jesus is.  If you
remember in Luke 4, where Jesus says today the scipture is fulfilled
about the captives being set free and what not, you can refer back
to Isaiah and see that the rest of the passage, which Jesus did not
cite or say is fulfilled, proclaimed the day of VENGEANCE of our God.
Isaiah 61:2.  This is to come.

|
|		Claimed to fit, but not demonstrated.
|}		       19. king
|		Obviously not.  Making the claim and not being able to
|		back it up is what was claimed to have gotten him terminated.

Later, kings can be attacked, but Jesus rose from the dead.

|}		       20. special anointment of Holy Spirit
|		"Annointed One" means messiah.  There were numerous
|		announced contenders at the time.

Who won?

|}		       21. his zeal for God
|		How is this suppose to serve as an identifier?  Besides
|		which, the term was in the "prophecy" but not in his given
|	"fulfilment" verse.  Now the prophecy:
|PSA 69:5  O God, thou knowest my foolishness; and my sins are not
|hid from thee.
|PSA 69:6  Let not them that wait on thee, O Lord GOD of hosts, be
|ashamed  for  my sake: let not those that seek thee be confounded
|for my sake, O God of Israel.
|PSA 69:7  Because for thy sake I have borne reproach; shame  hath
|covered my face.
|PSA 69:8  I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and  an  alien
|unto my mother's children.
|PSA 69:9  For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up;  and  the
|reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me.
|PSA 69:10  When I wept, and chastened my soul with fasting,  that
|was to my reproach.
|PSA 69:11  I made sackcloth also my garment; and I became a  pro-
|verb to them.
|PSA 69:12  They that sit in the gate speak against me; and I  was
|the song of the drunkards.
|PSA 69:13  But as for me, my prayer is unto thee, O LORD,  in  an
|acceptable time: O God, in the multitude of thy mercy hear me, in
|the truth of thy salvation.
|PSA 69:14  Deliver me out of the mire, and let me not  sink:  let
|me  be  delivered from them that hate me, and out of the deep wa-
|ters.
|
|
|Any question who prayed in psalms, and who thought he was foolish, 
|zealous for the Lord, wore sackcloth, fasted, ...?  Still think
|that it was Jesus?
|
|
|
|I can go on with trash concerning "his minestry" and "his death".
|Equally silly.

Correct, equally silly.  For you don't want to believe the
truth, but prefer you own ideas.

For Christ and His Kingdom,
Richard Pitts
-- 
rpitts@cerl.gatech.edu       |    
Atlanta, GA                --|-- 
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