From: dsouth@uoft02.utoledo.edu (Dale Southard Jr.)
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving
Subject: Re: how often does this happen?
Date: 2 Sep 92 17:55:29 GMT
Article-I.D.: uoft02.1992Sep2.125529.9805
Organization: University of Toledo, Computer Services

In article <60033@mimsy.umd.edu>, jerrys@umiacs.umd.edu (Jerry Sobieski) writes:
> Ok, I guess I started this, so I'll argue a bit...

Go ahead, it's free, safe, and kinda fun...   :-)
> 
> In article <1992Sep1.000638.9794@uoft02.utoledo.edu> dsouth@uoft02.utoledo.edu (Dale Southard Jr.) writes:
>>In article <60005@mimsy.umd.edu>, jerrys@umiacs.umd.edu (Jerry Sobieski) writes:
>>> 
>>> The advantageous of a dual system seem to benefit the Jumpmasters more
>>> than the students.  The student's safety - on the 1st jump - should be
>>> more important than possible *minor* retraining differences 15 or more
>>> jumps down the road.
>>
>>
>>Well, as a Jumpmaster, I cannot agree that an SOS aids the jumpmaster
>>(I assume by eliminating the need for retraining) anymore than I could
>>agree that a TAS (Two Action System) aids the instructor by making the
>>training simpler. 
> 
> I think my meaning wasn't entirely clear...I do not think the JM's efforts
> should be a consideration (reasonably speaking).  The student's safety
> should be the priority.  IMO, the next dive for a student is their riskiest.
> If, when they get off student status, they become complacent, that is
> a different issue.  As long as they are students, we must insure their safety
> while we teach them how to survive on their own.  They should not be
> off student status if they can't handle the gear and procedures they 
> are jumping.  We give them 20-25 jumps of training, IMO adding an option
> to their emergency procedures when they have 15 jumps is preferable to
> complicating the procedures as a newbie.


Thanks for not mentioning my TAS <--> SOS reversal in the above paragraph :-)
I agree, the jumpmaster's efforts are not inconsideration but disagree on
the "complication factor" of a TAS.  But your point is valid.

>>If one looks at the better designed 
>>student rigs, one sees that the handle placement remains the same from
>>PRCP through freefall.  The idea that a student should be forced to learn
>>an entirely new emergency procedure AFTER getting off of student status
>>(and without an AAD/RSL for backup) is somewhat ludicrous.  
> 
> A) They are *not* off student status when they are trained in dual system,
> and B) they still have both AAD and RSL (why are these backups incompatible
> with a dual system?)

Yes, they are TRAINED SOS --> TAS while they are still under student status,
but they will actually have to remember SOS-->TAS long after they are signed
off and jumping regular gear.  That is unless your DZ has a malfunction
requirement for student graduation.
 
>>As instructors, our job is to create SAFE skydivers.  That means that
>>when you sign-off that log book, the instructor should KNOW that the
>>student has demonstrated the capability to handle the challenges that
>>the sport presents.  
> 
> Which means if the student can't perform their emergency procedures
> adequately, they shouldn't be cleared off student status.  Once they
> are off student status, they are on their own.  They are no longer
> going to be supervised on every jump by a JM or even an "experienced"
> jumper.  If they can't handle a dual system then, what makes you think
> they would have ever handled one?

So what's your point?  Haven't you ever had to turn a student away because
they were not up to the sport?  Again, my personal opinion is that a TAS
is just not that complicated.  I don't think that I would let someone jump
who could not demonstrate the ability to operate a TAS (but supposedly
was able to master an SOS). I do not disagree with your point that an SOS 
system is slightly less complex. My point is that, statistically, most
jumpers nowdays have their first malfunction LONG after they are trained.
That means that I want EVERY SECOND of the training period to reinforce
emergency procedures that they will be using.  I do not want even a
half-forgotten image of "one handle does it all" remaining when they do
have that first cutaway. Again, personal opinion.

> A similar situation occurs on level 3.  Students heretofore are taught
> to pull immediately if they lose both JMs.  Then- all of a sudden -
> on level 3 they gotta learn something new - not to pull when the JMs release.

And it they screw up, they are under an open canopy at 8000+'.  Being
a CRW enthusiast, I guess I don't see the big deal  :-)
We are also comparing standard situation procedures to emergency procedures.
Apples to oranges.

>>preform a back-in in the 5th wave of a 40-way (yet), but they SHOULD
>>be able to skydive safely WITHOUT any further babysitting.  I personally
>>don't feel that saying "when you buy a real rig, remember to pull the
>>right, then the left" is the nearly as good as drilling it into them
>>for 20 jumps.  
 
> Also, unless the student demonstrates proficiency in a real emergency,
> signing them off student status is an educated guess that they indeed
> could handle a real emergency.  You never know *for sure* until it
> happens.

Unfortunately, neither system can "fix" this problem.

Again, as someone earlier stated for the benifit of any wuffos STILL
reading this thread.  Jerry and I and everyone else are not really
condeming the "other" system (other being relative). Neither system
has been proven better statistically.  It is all a matter of instructor
preference.  In fact, Jerry and I are actually in AGREEMENT on most
points.  Students should be kept safe. Our only disagreement is on
how that is best done and a little bit of a short-term/long-term debate.

The point is, no matter which system you are using:

	DON'T TRY TO LAND WITHOUT A PARACHUTE !!!!
 
>>(then again, I also think students should have square reserves
>>so I am obviously nuts).
> 
> I whole heartedly agree with you <studd deleted>

SEE, HONEST, we don't really hate each other...!!!  :-)  :-) 

> I sure hope the Herd has airplanes...See y'all there.
> Jerry
Have fun...make a few for me.


-- 
/* Dale Southard Jr.                                 Sr. Rigger      */
/* University of Toledo                             AFF/I   SL/I     */
/* dsouth@uoft02.utoledo.edu                           D-11216       */
/* Department of Chemistry -- "Just another skydiving grad student." */
Newsgroups: rec.skydiving