From: jeff@is.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp (Jeff McAffer)
Subject: Re: women working on bikes
Reply-To: jeff@is.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp
Organization: University of Tokyo, tcejorP Project.
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 08:45:40 GMT


In article <9209081645.AA02759@hplomg.hpl.hp.com> BRANDT_JOBST/HP1900_01@HPLOMG.HPL.HP.COM writes:

 >> You would also find a good many women who are engineers - mechanical,
 >> aeronautical, electrical, materials; others who are chemists,
 >> physicists, and other technical professionals, as well as mechanics,
 >> electricians, and other trades.
 >
 >That women fit into these skills is common, but I am not convinced that
 >women have the mechanical aptitude more often found in men because, as
 >I said, I have never met one who recognizes mechanisms and mechanical
 >things with natural facility.  My experience does not prove that such
 >women do not exist, only that in my sample they are highly uncommon.

In actual fact, there is nothing wrong with what Jobst is saying.
Everything above is entirely true (assuming he is not lying).  In his
reality, this is the way it is.  I salute him for sticking to his
beliefs.

The experience portion of my reality is somewhat similar.  I have
never *met* a female code hacker/system designer/computer guru who was
as good as the males I know.  The difference is that I believe this to
be the result of societal molding.  In my experience (IME?)(IMHE?) I
have met *many* girls and women who I know are bright, intelligent,
mechanically able, ... but who feel they must/should/want to defer to
men when it comes to something technical or mechanical.  What does
this say to you?  To Jobst it seems to say that they are just not
capable.  Another view might be that men are just overwhelming
obnoxiously and insecure to allow women to show their real selves?

I don't know if Jobst's implication that women are inherently
mechanically challenged is right or wrong.  I don't know if women and
men inherently have equal ability or if, heaven forbid, women's
inherent mechanical ability is superior to that of men.  One thing I
do know (IMHE) is that all the Sociologist and Psychologists out there
also don't know.  I've yet to see an experiment which successfully
separated societal influences from the natural tendencies of humans
for anything but a small portion of human behaviour.  I would love to
see some (tell me if you know any) but judging from opposition to
recent isolationalist linguistics experiments, I seriously doubt it
will happen in the near future.  BTW, is it true that girls out
perform boys in math until about the time of puberty?  Do boys produce
smart hormones or girls dumb hormones?

I find it strange (hypocritical?) that Jobst, hater of the
speculative, demander of quantitative proof, flamer of the
unsubstantiated opinion poster and apparent mechanical god amongst
women, would be posting this sort of stuff.  Don't get me wrong, this
is not a flame, just the view from my reality.

I have never met a {fill in Jobst's description of himself} who was
capable of reason.  Gee, what does that say about...

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