From: noraa@cbnewsk.cb.att.com (aaron.l.hoffmeyer)
Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights,soc.men,talk.abortion
Subject: Re: Unfounded Allegations Of Sexism
Date: 12 Dec 92 22:50:20 GMT
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories

In article <1992Dec11.131103.13142@walter.cray.com> daw@cray.com (Dave Wright) writes:
>In article <1992Dec11.150608.3921@vicorp.com> mc@vicorp.com (Mark Charalambous) writes:
>>bard@cutter.ssd.loral.com (J H Woodyatt) writes:
>>
>>>The kind of power we're talking about here is really power of when and
>>>how divorce is to take place.  It strikes me as evidence of great
>>>naivete that you really don't seem to understand how much more power a
>>>husband can wield against his wife in most cases simply by threatening
>>>divorce than a wife can wield over her husband, and the reason for
>>>that stems from the answer to the question above.

This does not jive with reality.  Women file 85% of the divorces in
this country.  Who's threatening whom?

>>Eh?
>>
>>From what I've seen, the _typical_ situation when a separation is imminent
>>is for the women to go to court while the husband is at work and get a 
>>restraining order on the husband granting her temporary custody of the children
>>and usually requiring the husband to immediately vacate the home. 
>>Also _typically_ the husband has a fulltime job and cannot use these tactics 
>>himself to get the divorce off and running in the direction favorable to him.
>>
>
>In my case, my wife knew that if we divorced she would get the house, the
>kids and half my income. I spent three years with her extorting me for
>money (even though she worked) by threatening divorce. She would say if
>I didn't give her what whe wanted, she would have me thrown out of the
>house, take my income and find a new father for my kids. What did she
>want $400/wk, me working 4 hr days, and her to go to the bars 4 nights a
>week, and for her to have boyfriends(adultery) over whenever she wanted.
>And her to have no responsibilities to the kids. There is no way that
>anyone can convince me a man has more power in a family. My X would even
>call the police to have me thrown out of the house, but I had done nothing
>except to say we could not afford her spending whatever she wanted without
>any responsibility. I have never heard of a man threatening divorce to
>establish authority in family matters. I hav heard many stories of the
>women threatening to sic the system after the husband if he stands up for
>what is best for the family. My X also tried to get a restraining order
>on me to help her case. I WAS NEVER ABUSIVE IN ANY WAY. SHE WAS THE
>AGRESSOR and I was trying to be RESPONSIBLE. SHe had been listening to
>her femi-nazi support network that contibuted to the breakup instead of
>helping the family work things out. She expects all parental rights with
>NO RESPONSIBILITY.
>

Ditto here Dave, except she only used the divorce as a threat for about
two years.  What did she do to extort me?  Well, about two years before
the divorce, my ex2b had a terrible problem with money.  Seems she spent
it a lot faster than I could make it, and wouldn't go out and make any
herself.  At that time, she went through about a month where she racked
up about $2500 of bad checks.  Yep, she bounced about $2500 in one
month.  I have no idea what she thought she was getting away with, and I
had no idea that she was doing this.  Anayway, as a result of that
fiasco, my parents had to bail US out, and both her parents and my
parents agreed that, as part of covering these checks, she would not be
allowed to control our finances anymore.  Fine.  We took her off the
checking account and she had to get her money from me from then on--at
least, until she could prove herself responsible again.

Well, for a year, everything was fine, but I wanted to be able to trust
her and I wanted her to have more responsibility.  So after a year
where everything was paid, because I was paying, I put her name on a
mutual savings account. That way, she could go to the bank and take out
money any time she needed it and wouldn't have to ask me for it.  Then,
I had my entire paycheck wired directly into that account.

She started taking on responsibility to pay some of the bills with that
money, and for a while, everything seemed like it was going OK.  But
then, she did this:  when my money would show up in this account, she
would rush to the bank and transfer almost all the money out of that
account and into an account that I did not have access to.  I thought
this was absolutely ridiculous, but she threatened that if I stopped
the direct transfer to that account that she had access to, she would
immediately go and file for a divorce.  I'm 100% serious.  I know I was
being used and seriously considered divorcing her at that point.
However, I knew my two sons would soon be out of diapers and into
daycare and she could then go back out and get a job and then she would
have an income that she could manage and she wouldn't be so dependent
upon my money.  I left the bank account setup as it was.

But she started to get more and more malicious and manipulative.  When
the kids were pretty much through with potty training, we put them in
daycare, we were paying to have people come in and clean up our house,
and she was still not working, and she was still taking all my
money--just leaving me enough money for gas and lunch.  And she would
NOT, in fact, REFUSED to go out and even look for a job.  But she did
enjoy going out at night drinking with her friends.  Once coming in at
5:00 a.m., drunk as a skunk, on a weeknight.  Then she started bouncing
checks again.

She came to me in March of 1991 and asked for a dissolution.  She told
me she wanted $800 per month in child support, $800 per month alimony,
wanted me to pay off the van that was in her name that she wanted to
keep, and wanted me to pay for daycare on top off everything else.  She
wanted sole custody of the children and all our furniture and our
apartment.  She merely wanted the kids, $2300 net per month, all our
accrued assets and wanted me to take all the debts.  I told her she was
nuts.  She told me I would find out who was nuts.

She pissed around for another month, but I know that during that month
she obtained a highly unethical attorney that she was referred to by a
group called Choices.  (In a deposition she stated that she would call
them about once a month and they would advise her on what she should do
next.  She also stated in the deposition that she knew who Faye Yeager
and Phyllis Chesler were and that Choices had told her about these two
women.)  She used my money to retain him.  This attorney is notorious
for representing only women, for allowing them to pay for services with
sex, starting divorces by having the man thrown out of his own house
and by getting restraining orders against them.  That's exactly what he
did with me.

But, I got a good attorney and it looked like that tactic had run its
course.  The judge told me I could file for shared parenting in the
divorce.  I did.  That infuriated my ex2b.  Within a month of that time,
she had charges filed against me for child endangerment for spanking my
sons, when she told me to spank them for destroying our house while she
was taking care of them.  It took 10 months and $5000 to fight that one,
but I eventually got the statute under which I was charged thrown out as
unconstitutional.  As soon as that was resolved and I had a Guardian Ad
Litem recommending to the court that I get joint custody, she accused me
of sexually molesting my children.  After two months of investigation in
that case, we had 30 witnesses ready to testify against my ex2b, but the
trial would have cost me $25,000--money I didn't have.  Finally, my ex2b
agreed to back off, when it looked like I could get sole custody with an
expensive trial and agreed to a shared parenting.

That's where we are today, and we've been to court over 20 times in the
last 20 months.  We'll be in court on the 18th, because we still
haven't finalized the divorce and because she is appealing the court's
recommendation that I get my sons for five days after X-mas.

That we will probably be in and out of court for the next 14 years is
probably a given.  But I will not back down, I will not be treated as a
second-class citizen, I want to be involved in my children's lives and I
will continue to insure that I am a part of their lives.  But I also
acknowledge my children's mother's rights, something that she has a
difficult time doing with regards to my rights.

So, your response to Mr. Woodyatt, your story, will probably obtain
little empathy from him.  Because he has no idea what it is like to be
a man in a divorce who is treated like a monster and a second-class
citizen just because he is a man, because he has all his empathies tied
up in understanding women, because he sees the oppression of women
rampant in society (as pointed out to him by numerous women), because
he is so used to thinking in terms of women as perpetual victims, he
just cannot fathom that there is any arena on this planet where men are
oppressed, discriminiated against, and degraded and victimized just
because they are men.  No, he is just like my ex2b in this regards,
It's Ok to hurt men and to lie, cheat or steal in your relationships
with men, because men make more money than women.

So, sorry Dave, but I doubt we are going to convince Mr. Woodyatt of
anything.  His mind is probably made up and very closed.  His knowledge
of the reality of things is limited, and he seems intent on
perpetuating the myths that he has bought into lock, stock and barrel,
because facts apparently don't mean much to him.  His values are
directed towards hatred in defiance of perceived oppression.  He can
lie to us, because he is lying about men.  He is discounting our
experiences, because they are the experiences of men.  After all, men
are bad, women are good.  Always and forever.

Aaron L. Hoffmeyer
TR@CBNEA.ATT.COM 
Newsgroups: alt.dads-rights