HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Original_To:  BITNET%"mbu-l@ttuvm1.bitnet"
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 05:10:00 EDT
From:         "Composition Digest (Robert Royar,
              Moderator)" <R0MILL01@ULKYVX.BITNET>
Subject:      (Fwd: *C&CD*) Searching for Anne Villems (12)

Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 04:38:08 EDT
From:         IN%"RobertRoyar@Delphi.com" Robert Royar (C&CD Moderator)
Message-Id:   <1992Aug26.043808.1.Grendel.Lair@Cratylus>
Subject:      Searching for Anne Villems (12)
Reply-to:     IN%"R0MILL01@ULKYVX.LOUISVILLE.EDU"  C&CD
Organization: Cratylus Educational Software

The current email address I have for Anne Villems bounces apparently because
the Soviet Union (.su) domain is no longer available.  Could someone tell me
either the new domain for Estonia (.es is spain is it not?), or could someone
who has better contact with Anne forward my request to her so she can update
our records to continue receiving the Digest.

The address I have which began to bounce last Friday, 21 August is
   "anne@ebc.tartu.ew.su"

Thanks,

 -- Robert Royar (RobertRoyar@Delphi.com) New York Institute of Technology
    "The average voter doesn't view himself as articulate, so I
    think they can understand the President."
                                                  -- Bob Teeter
                                                     Bush Campaign Manager

*************************************
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Date:         Sun, 30 Aug 1992 22:39:30 --500
From:         "David E. Schwalm" <IACDES@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: (Fwd: *C&CD*) Some classes where groups have worked (4)

 *** Reply to note of 08/30/92 13:28
 Myles, I once argued (in a old lit/comp skirmish a few years back) that the
 reason we analyze literature is that there is nothing else to do with
 it--except enjoy it, of course, and that has no academic pizzazz. THe only
 life situation one can think of for writing about literature is an English
 class, and our stu dents have been in that situation often enough. Interesting
 problem. It's almost pathelogical to read literature for information, and
 since we no longer believe in universals and stuff like that the higher
 function of literature that Aristotle identified is severely eroded. (And
 should be, I suspect. As I get older, fewer and fewer literary works seem to
 offer much insight. Only a few, like Rasselas seem to hold up at all. I just
 want to tell Keats and Shelley to grow up.) So what are we left with? Literary
 analysis. Why is it that we spend inordinate amounts of time teaching students
 how to read literature with great acumen and almost no time teaching them how
 to read a newspaper or textbook? We teach people how to read texts that admit
 to being lies (fiction); we do not teach them how to read the texts that claim
 to be true. Talk about your screwy values.

 -- David E. Schwalm, Assoc. Provost for Academic Programs
 ___Arizona State University West
 ___4701 West Thunderbird Rd.
 ___Phoenix, AZ 85069-7100___(602) 543-4500
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Date:         Mon, 31 Aug 1992 07:07:06 CDT
From:         McDonald James C <jcm5337@USL.EDU>
Subject: Re: Jim McDonald

Thanks for your concern, Julie.  Tuesday and Wednesday morning were tense, and
I did have to do without power and without showering for a couple of days, but
I was lucky that Andrew decided to move east as it neared Lafayette.  Our
semester started a week ago but classes have been cancelled since noon Tuesday.
I needed two of those days for clearing the yard of debris, but I lost no trees
and my house was undamaged.  Although my immediate neighborhood lost about a
dozen trees, none fell on houses--one neighbor posted a sign on an oak that
fell close to her house saying "Thank you, Jesus."
  I'll find out how my students and their families fared over the next few days.
A number, I'm sure, live in New Iberia and some may come from Morgan City,
Franklin, Jeanerette, Houma, and other towns southeast of here that were hit
hard.  I'm particularly concerned about the freshmen; starting college and being
away from home for the first time is upsetting and demanding enough without
having to go through a hurricane at the same time, especially if there's no
power or roof at home.
  Classes begin again today.  It should be an interesting week.
   Jim McDonald
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Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1992 15:49:32 CDT
From:         Wes Chapman <WESCHAP@VMD.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: literacy, orality, & NeXT

David:  Some clarifications, then a question.  First, PREPeditor does not
offer any boilerplate comments.  What it does, essentially, is create infinite-
ly extemsible margins for an instructor's (or student's) remarks. It also
allows a paper to have several margins, so that (for instance) a peer group's
comments can be made available to a writer all at the same time, and allows
margins to have margins, so that (for instance) a student can respond to an
instructor's comments.  And as noted, it allows (within limits) an instructor
to record an oral remark (it also offers some fairly crude drawing tools).
Used creatively, it  can open up some real possibilities for interaction, in
my opinion; nothing so profoundly different as what ENFI programs offer, but
significant nevertheless.

What's the advantage over handwritten comments?  There are several.  First,
typed comments are legible, which my handwritten comments aren't.  Second, a
comment can be as long or as short as it needs to be; it doesn't have to squeez
e into a particular space on the page.  Third, a critic has all the usual cut
and paste tools that are usually available on a computer, which makes certain
kinds of comments and demonstrations considerably easier.

You're quite right to worry about the danger of overcommenting on student paper
s; having all that space to write in provides a dangerous temptation.  But that
temptation exists with handwritten comments also; in either case the remedy is
simple restraint, based upon a realistic estimate of how much information a
student can absorb.

Now my question.  It sounds from what you say like your disagreement isn't so
much with electronic commenting as with writing out comments in general.  Is
that so?  If so, how do you manage to find the time to schedule conferences
with every student over every paper (something I did a few times as a grad
student teaching one class but couldn't possibly manage now that I teach three)
?  Or do you do something else altogether?  I'm really very interested,
because I myself have considerable doubts about the efficacy (or at least the
consistency of the efficacy) of written comments, and would be quite happy to
abandon them for another system.

BTW, if anyone's interested, PREPeditor is available for free by FTP from the
developers.  If you'd like to know the address, let me know and I'll dig it
out.

yours,
Wes chapman
Illinois Wesleyan University
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Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1992 11:35:53 CDT
From:         Wes Chapman <WESCHAP@VMD.CSO.UIUC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: literacy, orality, & NeXT

Russ:  what were your grounds for arguing that using oral comments were (I
forget how you put it) "inconsistent with a commitment to writing as an
interpersonal medium" (is that accurate?)?  Would it make a difference that in
a computer medium you can _mix_ oral and written comments fairly seamlessly
(something you can't do with taped comments)? As I've said before on this list,
I'll be using a commenting program which has the ability to add voice messages
to written comments, so I'd be very interested to hear more about your objectio
ns to oral comments.
yours,
Wes Chapman
Illinois Wesleyan University
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Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1992 20:03:20 -0400
From:         ENGMYLES@UBVMS.BITNET
Subject:      Re: (Fwd: *C&CD*) Comments on good and great papers (4)

David:  what is the difference between rhetorical analysis and poetic
analysis?  Poe, whom I am reading again, tells me all is directed to an
end, a purpose, an ultimate intention, and that is how I am to read
the Raven.  Also legal briefs, biographies, history, Plato, and President
Bush.  The text's strategies and statements about itself are what we are to
look for, no?
Myles
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Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1992 13:40:53 EDT
From:         rselfe@MTU.EDU
Subject:      Re: comments

>What
>if they start clamoring for freedom? What if they decide that
>netcommunities are more valuable to them than classroom communities.
>
>Yeech! We could have insurrection in the schools.
>
>If we're lucky.
>--Eric Crump


You're right Eric, they might even find the time and space to form real
communities (local and virtual) of folks who care about each other.  Scary
thought.  Let's call the whole thing off.

No really, it is scarry to think that students could form communities of
which we are not a part, with expectations and intentions that we do not
determine.  I think we'll still have plenty of say about what the final
products for our classes look like, but it puts us squarely in a supportive
role when audiences are elsewhere.  I chalk that up to the price of
passion.
From: SLATIN@UTXVM.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: Re: (Fwd: *C&CD*) Some classes w
Date: 31 Aug 92 15:43:50 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

Is it untenable to argue that one reason for te aching literature is that it
has been a sifnificant area of human endeavor?  In the pre-scientific era (or
the last pre-scientific era before this one), literature WAS knowledge or was
knowing.  The great triumph of Western science has forced a change in
function; but literature remains a force for knowledge and a means of knowing.
The same articles I mentioned the other day (the ones in Katherine Hayles'
Chaos adn Order collection) argue that postmodern science is turning
increasingly to arrrative as the only medium flexile enough to describe and
explain the phenomena in which science is increasingly interested.  This is
presumably an exaggerated claim; but it's not a trivial one.

John Slatin
UT Austin
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Date:         Sun, 30 Aug 1992 16:23:56 -0400
From:         ENGMYLES@UBVMS.BITNET
Subject:      Re: (Fwd: *C&CD*) Some classes where groups have worked (4)

Robert:  your non-lit classes use "life" situations, where it is clear
that a good deal depends on the outcome, not simply a grade which itself
is only distantly related to an outcome.  How could we transfer that to
a lit class?  Are there any "life" situations in writingabout literature
in whihc much depends on the outcome of what is written?
[Now that's awkwardly phrased.]
Myles
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 11:47:00 EDT
From:         WWOOD@LUCY.WELLESLEY.EDU
Subject:      Re: measuring change

John--

What, I wonder, do you mean by "grand developmental narrative"?  It's a
tantalizing concept, with many possible threads springing from it....

The sources you mention (thanks, by the way, for the lead) argue, you say,
"that there can be no such comprehensive narratives but only local ones
which interact in complex and problematically non-linear ways."

Which suggests...development as a hypertext?   HMMMM..a really interesting
model to explore...

Wini
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Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 01:25:57 EDT
From:         Greg DiMedio <T270100@UNIVSCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: seeking advice on stand-alone word processor machines

If you are going to spend money on a stand-alone word processor,
make sure that it is MS-DOS compatible.  Brother puts out one and
Smith-Corona has a model.  I am sure that once your daughter gets
to the point where she sees the numerous benefits of using a computer
over a stand-alone word processor, she'll be kicking herself if she
can't at least take her disk (in DOS format) and bring it to the
computer lab where she can use WordPerfect or MS-WORD or WordStar.
If she knows she can generate the bulk of the text on the stand-alone
word processor and format it later using a computer and an advanced
word processing program, she might get a lot of mileage out of one
of these over-glorified typewriters.
 - Greg
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Date:         Sat, 29 Aug 1992 08:49:00 EDT
From:         "Composition Digest (Robert Royar,
              Moderator)" <R0MILL01@ULKYVX.BITNET>
Subject:      (Fwd: *C&CD*) $5000 NeXT and widgety wadgets (3)

$undigest -s="$5000 NeXT and widgety wadgets (3)" [.new_news]cmpd6246.mss

Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1992 20:39:56 EDT
From:         IN%"RobertRoyar@Delphi.com" Robert Royar (C&CD Moderator)
Message-Id:   <1992Aug28.203956.1.Grendel.Lair@Cratylus>
Subject:      $5000 NeXT and widgety wadgets (3)
Reply-to:     IN%"R0MILL01@ULKYVX.LOUISVILLE.EDU"  C&CD
Organization: Cratylus Educational Software

David,
It's not really the voice commenting that got my attention about the NeXT
computer but rather the ease with which such things as complex databases,
message pipes, images, and sound could be manipulated.  It's much easier even
than with a Mac mainly because it seems to translate the user's "high level"
commands (e.g. make a widget that has name, class, and notebook gadgets in it
and call it a journal--then when the user moves the mouse like this--open this
window and search for net mail--oh yeah, let me use this new widget to make
more complex ones).  I watched a guy design a very complex Lotus application in
three minutes that would usually take hours on the Mac and PC versions.  It's
all accomplished by pointing, clicking, and dragging.  The demos are usually
very fast.  Screen redraws are almost instant--no need for fade in/out boxes to
fool the user into thinking things are moving a pace.  It's those features that
interest me.

 -- Robert Royar (RobertRoyar@Delphi.com) New York Institute of Technology
    "The average voter doesn't view himself as articulate, so I
    think they can understand the President."
                                                  -- Bob Teeter
                                                     Bush Campaign Manager

------------------------------
$deassign sys$output
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Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 14:51:59 CDT
From:         Don Langham <DLANGHAM@ENGLISH.AS.UA.EDU>
Subject:      Ice T and Murphy Brown

> Date:          Wed, 2 Sep 1992 07:52:22 --500
> From:          SLATIN%UTXVM.BITNET@ricevm1.rice.edu
> Subject:       Re: (Fwd: *C&CD*) Some classes w

> Why is Murphy Brown more interesting/important than Ice T?
>
> John Slatin
> UT Austin

Assuming that MB is "more interesting/important" (to whom?), one
explanation may be that law-and-order conservatives and family values
conservatives tend to believe that violent black men are part of the
normal order of life.  The problem with Ice T is that his lyrics
advocate violence against police officers.  If he were rapping about
killing other black men (the most common target of black murderers),
I don't think that his lyrics would be an issue.

But while conservatives accept the violent black man as a fact of
life (black men are just that way), they are less inclined to accept
a white woman who willingly chooses what for many white Americans is
a "black person's" lifestyle--having and raising children out of
wedlock.  Ice T's violence can be contained with more cops on the
streets and more criminals in more jails (or so goes law-and-order
logic).  Murphy's behavior isn't as "easily" prevented, thus she
poses a greater threat to (mainstream, white) society.


--Don Langham
  University of Alabama
  English Computer Lab
  DLangham@English.as.ua.edu
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Date:         Mon, 31 Aug 1992 07:53:42 CDT
From:         ellis <nse2@RA.MSSTATE.EDU>
Subject:      viruses

Have any of you had any experience with the "Pakistani brain/Ashar"
virus?  It infected our teaching assistants' pcs either during the
summer or just as school started.

What's the outcome of this "illness"?
Would appreciate knowing what may crop up some time.
I dreamed about this over the weekend, dreamed the virus "ate" the
document I had on screen and replaced it with maps of Asia with
Pakistan FLASHING its position on and off  :-) !

Nancy Ellis
nse2@ra.mstate.edu
Mississippi State Univ
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Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1992 18:01:00 EST
From:         KARCH%MUNIN@NORWICH.BITNET
Subject:      SUBSCRIBE

SUBSCRIBE "MEGABYTE UNIVERSITY (COMPUTERS & WRITING)" LINDA KARCH
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Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 13:49:26 -0600
From:         RONRON@USU.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Ice T and Murphy Brown

The question wasn't "Why is MB more important?" but "Why is MB more
interesting" than Ice-T.
  How easily  you Republican bashers slide into
slick socio-babble. Ice-T isn't very interesting; he's not very inventive;
doesn't even scan well.  He  lives somewhere in a violent never-never
land.  MB at least has generated a situation we can discuss, rather
than be repelled by.  Ron Shook, conservative family person.
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Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 09:39:56 ADT
Comments:     <04SEP92.10433089.0189.MUSIC@UNB.CA>
From:         HUNT000 <HUNT@UNB.CA>
Subject:      audiences

>      Students can be the audience sometimes, but they may not
> be the passionate (compassionate or oppositional) audience that
> our students need.  SEarch the lists; an ardent audience
> awaits.

     How somebody reads (& thus what kind of audience she is) depends in
large measure on the situation in which the reading occurs.  If I'm in a
situation that calls for judgement & evaluation of text, I read one way;
if in one that calls for helping and assistance, another.  If I'm in a
situation that calls for authentic response (I'm not focusing on how the
text is put together, I'm focusing on figuring out what it's asking me
to do or understand or feel), I'm more likely to read that way.

     So I think it's the same problem: we need to find audiences who
want to know what our students have to say, and audiences that our
students BELIEVE want to know what they have to say.  Email is surely
one way, but I've got an awful lot of students who think of that huge
world "out there" as just as irrelevant and inaccessible whether it's
mediated by print or electronics.  If I structure the class so that
people need to know what others have found out in order to get on with
the immediate enterprise, and have people reading virtually in each
others' presence, it creates a context where lots of people can believe
others have an interest in what they're saying.  And, especially, lots
of people who normally don't believe that.  Fluent, competent writers, I
think, are mainly defined by having that confidence.

                                    -- Russ
                                _~|__
Russell A. Hunt            _~|__)_ __)~|__   Learning and Teaching
Department of English      )_ __)_|_)__ __)     Development Office
St. Thomas University        |  )____) |        EMAIL: hunt@unb.ca
Fredericton, New Brunswick___|____|____|____/  FAX: (506) 450-9615
E3B 5G3   CANADA          \                / PHONE: (506) 452-7700
                       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Date:         Thu, 3 Sep 1992 13:33:17 EDT
From:         David Sewell <dsew@TROI.CC.ROCHESTER.EDU>
Subject:      Re: On-line collaborative lit?
              "rselfe@mtu.edu" at Sep 2, 92 5:21 pm

>David,
>How about the IRC efforts that flourish every night (even days)?
>Dickie Selfe

IRC as collaborative *literature*?  :-)

OK, I'll grant it's somewhere in the spectrum, if only in the lower
frequencies (& what is it the Invisible Man says, "who knows but, in the
lower frequencies, I speak for you"?).

--
David Sewell, English Dept, U of Rochester   |  "Grammarians without any
  dsew@troi.cc.rochester.edu                 |  character at all lecture
  dsewell@violet.ccit.arizona.edu            |  us upon that of Homer."
  (On leave in Tucson, Arizona, '92-'93)     |     --Diogenes the Cynic
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Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1992 20:15:05 -0400
From:         ENGMYLES@UBVMS.BITNET
Subject:      Re: (Fwd: *C&CD*) Transferring real life to Lit classes (7)

Jim: how do I get myself into real life?  That's a problem I never thought
of.  Maybe I should ask the kids to solve it.
Myles
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Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1992 12:21:25 -0500
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From:         TWBATSON@GALLUA.BITNET
Subject:      EnfiLOG Addendum

I didn't stress in my earlier posting about the EnfiLOG that we need your
full snail mail address, including zip code, for our [old style] mailing
list.  I've started receiving requests to send the EnfiLOG with no or only
a partial USMail address included.

Thanks --
Trent
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Date:         Mon, 31 Aug 1992 10:09:33 --500
From:         "David E. Schwalm" <IACDES@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      (Fwd: *C&CD*) Comments on good and great papers (4)

 *** Reply to note of 08/31/92 03:34
 I think just about any of us will do just about anything for engaged,
 receptive, adademically motivated students. What we come to resent is the time
 we spend on students who couldn't care less. Comp teachers have to be very
 miserly with their time. I have tried to set up normative responding and
 grading procedures that willbe helpful to most students, a procedure that
 makes the best use of my time generally. But when I find a student who can

 benefit from fuller commentary on papers or from conferences, then I
 willprovide that kind of feedback. What I don't do is set up a teacher-killing
 system as the norm, when much of the effort invested will be totally wasted.

 -- David E. Schwalm, Assoc. Provost for Academic Programs
 ___Arizona State University West
 ___4701 West Thunderbird Rd.
 ___Phoenix, AZ 85069-7100___(602) 543-4500
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