From: scott@ods.com (Scott Harper)
Subject: Help! Poop Eater! (long)
Organization: Optical Data Systems, Inc.
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 16:34:35 GMT

Hello everybody. This is my first post to this newsgroup. I've
been reading on an off for about six months now, but we only
recently gained the capability to post.

We have two dogs: Shadow, a female black Lab, and Chaos, a female
Cocker Spaniel. Both are one year old. They are both outdoor dogs,
but they are allowed inside frequently to visit. They have a
40'x15' kennel/run that they stay in at night and when we're not
home. Other times, they have free run of the backyard.

I am desperately seeking advice on a problem I have seen addressed
here before. However, I really haven't found a good solution, here
or elsewhere. The problem: the dogs have acquired the bad habit of
eating their poop. I've attained a bit of information on the topic
from several sources, including this newsgroup, books, and from
the vet.

   - I believe the formal term for this behavior is
     "copraphagia" (sp?). In one book we saw it described
     as a habit that is very difficult to break.

   - It is not extremely unnatural for dogs to behave this way.
     The vet said, "Remember, dogs are scavengers by nature."

   - I gather that it is not generally considered a serious health
     risk, unless they are getting poop from wild or unknown
     animals. In our case, they are eating their own (or each other's),
     although I saw Shadow go after some that she found in the
     woods one day while we were on a walk.

Despite the above, I find it extremely disgusting and unacceptable.
One of my favorite things to do is to get down on my hands and knees and
roll around and wrestle with the dogs, letting them lick me on the neck
and face. However, I no longer feel comfortable doing this. I used to
tell Shadow to "give me a kiss" and bend down to let her lick me on
the lips. Not anymore! Bottom line is, I've *got* to find a solution!

When I tell people about it, they usually laugh. "Eewww gross!! Hahahaha".
Well, to me it isn't funny. Think about how you'd feel if it were *your*
dog.

Some of the possible solutions I've heard:

   - My wife seems to think they will "grow out of it", but I don't.
     I think it is a habit that they must be broken of. I think the
     longer they do it, the harder it will be to stop.

   - The trainer from obedience class suggested that we were feeding
     them too much/too rich food. We feed them Eukanuba puppy formula
     now. The idea was that they weren't completely digesting what
     they ate, so later, there was more food just lying on the ground!
     He suggested going to a Lamb & Rice based food.

     We didn't try this for a couple of reasons. First, our vet didn't
     think it would make any difference. Besides, he really likes us
     using the Eukanuba. Also, we figured that we would soon be changing
     foods, since we were approaching the one-year mark. Turns out
     that the vet has recommended continuing the puppy formula until
     at least 18 months (for the Lab's sake).

     We have cut back on the amount we feed them, but this hasn't 
     helped any.
     
   - Our vet, and another vet, recommended a powder called "Forbid"
     that you put in their food to make the end result extra bad
     smelling (and I assume tasting).  We tried four separate 
     applications of four days at a time, about a week apart. Let
     me tell you, it *does* make the stuff more disgusting. But at
     3 packets a day for 4 days and $3.00 a packet, it cost more
     for one application than it does to feed them for a month!
     Now I'm not against spending the necessary amount to correct
     the problem, but they continued to eat it like it was caviar!!
     So much for Forbid...

   - Someone here on the net mentioned the book _The Evans Guide to
     Housetraining Your Dog_ by Job Micheal Evans as a good source
     for this problem. I checked the book out from the library, and
     although it looked like a good book for *housebreaking*, that's
     not the problem we're trying to solve. I didn't read the book
     from cover to cover, but I scanned through it several times and
     didn't find any discussion of poop eating. Perhaps the person
     who recommended the book can tell me where I missed the info?

   - Of course, the most logical advice we've heard is to just keep
     the yard clean. Well, we now pick up after them at least twice
     a day, but we simply cannot be there 24 hours a day following 
     them around with a baggy! Every day when I got home from work
     I would go straight out to clean up after them, and there in their
     kennel would be pieces of poop scattered all over the place.
     (This is a sure sign that they have been playing with and/or
     eating it).

     Before long, when I'd go out to clean up, there wouldn't be any
     in the kennel. And shortly after I let them out, they would go
     in their favorite backyard spot. At last success! I thought.
     Now they don't go until I let them out, and I can clean that up
     before they get to it! Well, yesterday my bubble was popped. 
     Not 5 minutes after I saw Shadow go, I saw her sniffing around
     where she left her pile. So I immediately went out to clean it
     up, and the whole pile was gone! AAAHHHHHH!!! So now I really
     think the reason there isn't any in their kennel when I get home
     is because they eat it before it even gets cold!

Now I'll list some of the things we have done. Please let me know what
you think.

   - Whenever we catch them with a piece in their mouth, we yell NO!
     Bad Dog!, swat them with newspaper if its handy, and basically
     do whatever we can to let them know that this is bad. This seems
     like the best correction to me, but like I said before, we can't
     be around them all the time to get a consistent correction going.

   - If I see them sniffing around at a pile, I grab them by the neck,
     make them look right at the pile, and yell NO! But I'm not sure
     if they really understand this. Sometimes I think they might think
     I don't want them to go at all!

   - When I'm out cleaning up, they like to follow me around, of course.
     So when I pick up a piece on the scooper, I will present it in
     front of their noses and tell them "No No" (not yelling). This
     raises a question I have from a point I did find in the Evans book:
     it seems that when housebreaking a dog, you should not let them
     see you clean up after them, because then they will think that
     you will clean up after them just like their mother used to do when
     they were puppies. Does this apply to my problem? Are they thinking
     "He doesn't like this stuff left lying around, so we'd better do
     something with it before he gets home"?

So I now turn to the wisdom of the network! I need help! Please!!!
Sorry this was so long, but I really need to solve the problem. If
you think it will waste bandwidth in the newsgroup, please email me.
Believe me, if I find a way to stop this behavior, I will post it!

Thanks in advance!
-- 
Scott Harper                       Optical Data Systems, Inc.
scott@ods.com                      1101 E. Arapaho Road
(214) 234-6400                     Richardson, TX  75081