HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps)
Subject: Re: Ratzinger (was: Homosexuality)
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 15:24:46 GMT

In article <1992Oct11.221522.19032@cs.tulane.edu> lang@cs.tulane.edu (Raymond Lang) writes:
>Perhaps.  Perhaps not.  Given Ratzinger's past as an honored member
>of the Hitler Youth, I don't think it's unreasonable to attribute
>such a opinion to him; and I think it's important to understand the
>biases of the people purporting to advise the Pope in moral matters.

   This sounds a lot like an anti-Catholic flyer I saw a couple of
months ago.  It said that Karol Wojtyla (now Pope John Paul II) during
World War had been a salesman selling poison gas to the Nazis.  The
flyer didn't give any sources or references, nor do you.

   Just another example of _ad hominem_ attack.  You are unable to
make any valid arguments against what he says, so you try to discredit
the man in order to discredit his ideas.  Cardinal Ratzinger also
teaches that Christ died for our sins.  Is this teaching discredited
too?

   By the way, did you even read the entire article I posted before
you made your reply?  I even pointed out that Cardinal Ratzinger based
much of the letter on the SCDF's letter of 1975.  Pope John Paul II
was elected Pope in 1978, and he appointed Cardinal Ratzinger Prefect
of the SCDF, so the earlier SCDF letter obviously was written before
Cardinal Ratzinger was Prefect.  Finally, even if it all were the work
of Cardinal Ratzinger, Pope John Paul II still approved it, and
ordered its promulgation (as you should know if you read my entire
article).  So don't try to pass off the Church's teaching through her
ordinary Magisterium as the bias of one man.

-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Steve Creps, Indiana University
creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
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Date:         Tue, 13 Oct 1992 09:15:01 EDT
From:         "Brian Tillman, Smiths Industries, VAX Support,
              x8425" <tillman@SWDEV.SI.COM>
Subject:      Re: Homosexuality

>But you have no more proof that anyone else that homosexuality is a condition
>caused by the environment.  You might suspect it, but you cannot prove it.

As a matter of fact, and in support of the above, there are some animal species
that contain a homosexual fraction of the population.  Now, animals can't choose
to sin (or to not sin, for that matter), and I'm dubious of the concept of
"child abuse" in the animal kingdom.  Since there is proof that it occurs in
God's nature where there is no self-determination and where only the God-given
impulses exist, why is anyone surprised that some feel it natural in humans?

-----------------------------+--------------------------------
 Brian Tillman               | Internet: tillman@swdev.si.com
 Smiths Industries, Inc.     |           tillman_brian@si.com
 4141 Eastern Ave., MS129    | Hey, I said this stuff myself.
 Grand Rapids, MI 49518-8727 | My company has no part in it.
-----------------------------+--------------------------------
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Date:         Thu, 15 Oct 1992 07:59:08 -0400
From:         Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: women priests (yet again)

Excerpts from catholic: 14-Oct-92 Re: women priests (yet again) Amanda
Walker@INTERCON.C (424)

> > What authority is more reliable than Apostolic authority?

> This sounds like a trick question :).  Consulting that very authority...

> "The truth of our faith becomes a matter of ridicule among the infidels if
>  any Catholic, not gifted with the necessary scientific learning, presents
>  as dogma what scientific scrutiny shows to be false."
>                 -- Saint Thomas Aquinas

> Food for thought?

Obviously, you cannot use a scientific method to determine if ordination
of women is valid. Not only that, any scientific investigation will only
conclude that men and women are substantially different, not the same,
and will not help anyone in pushing women priests.

Dogma only covers faith and morals anyway, which cannot be proven
scientifically to be false.

Eric
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Date:         Wed, 14 Oct 1992 14:21:02 -0500
From:         Amanda Walker <amanda@INTERCON.COM>
Subject:      English translation of the Mass

> This I'm not sure about.  I heard that this is not true, i.e., our
> translation of the liturgy is _not_ approved by Rome.  That could be
> wrong, though.

Well, the translation in current use was prepared by the International
Committee on English in the Liturgy, which is a U.S. corporation.  However,
missals themselves that use it have been given Imprimaturs.  This seems to me
to imply that the translation has been de facto approved, even if there has
been no explicit statement from Rome one way or another.


Peace,

Amanda Walker
From: waldbill1981@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: P.S. for Latin & the Church
Date: 15 Oct 92 19:17:51 -0500
Organization: University of Northern Iowa


P.S.    In reference to the Roman Catholic Church, I deal solely with the Latin
Rite of the Church, not only because that is the rite in which most of us
worship, but also because it is by far the largest rite,  with over 90% of
Catholics belonging to this rite.

Latin Rite -- Latin Language.  There must be some connection here.

Caritas et Veritas Domini,

Brian T. Waldbillig
Petrus Romanus
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Date:         Tue, 13 Oct 1992 18:58:24 PDT
From:         FRANK@125LAW1.LAW.UCLA.EDU
Subject:      Re: Women Popes

> I hadn't heard the story that there were three.  I read sometime back
> that one woman managed to fool 'em all for a number of years & was
> eventually elected Pope.  She was found out when she gave premature birth
> on horseback (sounds tough) during a procession.  Since she had only been
> Pope for a month, she was written out of Church history.  If there was
> and credibility to the story I don't know how you'd find out.  I've read
> so many outrageous Papal stories that anti-Catholics pass off as truth
> that I'm pretty skeptical of most of them.


    Legend has it her name was Pope Joan.  The Oxford History of the
Popes has an article in it on her and according to them all
histories on women popes are in fact only legends.  There is not nor
has there been any truth to them.  If I can find the book at home I
will post some, if not all, of what it says.

    Frank
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Date:         Wed, 7 Oct 1992 15:48:11 -0700
From:         "(Gordon C. Zaft)" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>
Subject:      Re: Altar girls

On Oct 7,  6:06am, noao!john_lagrue.Wgc-e@RX.XEROX.COM wrote:
} Subject: Re: Altar girls and millstones
} Sorry about this Marty, but I've seen too much of this "the church teaches"
} stuff on this subject.
}
} FACT: The Church is your local praying, worshipping Catholic community, led
} by the successor to the Apostles, your Bishop.
}
} If your bishop chooses to ignore a Vatican document, which he is quite free
} to do, then no crime or sin is committed, no law is being broken.

	Au contraire.  The Bishop has been appointed by the pope and
has sworn obedience to him, if I'm not mistaken.
}
}
} So it it with female altar servers; if a local bishop decides that they are
} allowed in his diocese then the Vatican cannot do anything about it, nor would
} it wish to.

	Wrong on both counts.  While it's true that there is a very broad
range of things that a bishop can dispense if he wishes, if I'm not
mistaken things concerning the nature of the liturgy (such as altar
girls) are not his to dispense, but are reserved to the Holy See.  I think
someone quote the relevant stuff earlier; I don't have it handy.
}-- End of excerpt from noao!john_lagrue.Wgc-e@RX.XEROX.COM



--
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
                 Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.
Long life is in store for you.
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From: rickertj@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu (John Rickert)
Subject: Re: English translation of the Mass
Organization: Vanderbilt University Mathematics Department
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 02:54:30 GMT


   BTW, does anyone else out there have opinions on the translation?
If you ask me (great rhetorical device, isn't it?) I think the translation
is flat.  Dull.  And inaccurate in spots ("visibilium omnium, et invisibi-
lium" is different from "seen and unseen.")  My German isn't that great,
but when I've attended Mass in that language, the liturgy seems much more
inspiring, vigorous, and -- if I may say so -- majestic.  I realize some
people like the Mass plain, and I respect that, but the current liturgy
is so proaic I find it very hard to pay attention.  (The NAB is a matter
all its own, too.)

   It's off my chest now, I guess...


John Rickert					Noverim Te, ut noverim me;
rickertj@athena.cas.vanderbilt.edu		noverim me, ut noverim Te.
							--Augustine
From: waldbill1981@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.catholic
Subject: LATIN & the Church
Date: 15 Oct 92 19:09:57 -0500
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

For Anyone Who Cares:

Benedictus Deus in saecula!

Latin is not some outdated mothball of the Church loved by "nostalgic"
Catholics.  Latin is an integral part of the purest and fullest expressions of
*ROMAN CATHOLIC* Faith.  Latin is in no way part of the American Catholic
Church (a *de facto* schismatic Church), nor is it a concern for Neo-Catholic
Modernists, who do not care for many Catholic practices (traditional
expressions of piety, traditional prayers, reverent liturgy focused on Christ
alone, complete and sincere respect for the Blessed Sacrament, etc.). 

The use of Latin is the fullest expression of our faith because it unites all
of the faithful worldwide, it unites us with the saints who have gone to their
rest before us, and it is the language in which all of the liturgical, 
sacramental, and pastoral forms and directives of the Universal Church are 
originally written.

While I myself may lack a great deal of skill in communicating with the
beautiful and powerful Latin language (as has been pointed out on many
occasions in a most spiteful and unchristian manner), that in no way deters or
lessens my respect for the discipline of the *Roman Catholic Church*--the only
true Church of Christ, led by the Venerable Bishop of Rome, the Servant of
Servants.

Pax Christi vobiscum!


Caritas et Veritas Domini,

Brian T. Waldbillig
Petrus Romanus

"Domine non nisi te."  -St. Thomas Aquinas, a saint who knew
                        his Latin very well.
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From: jocallag@darwin.helios.nd.edu (john ocallaghan)
Subject: Re: Ratzinger (was: Homosexuality)
Organization: OUC, University of Notre Dame
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 17:34:26 GMT

In article <1992Oct12.165921.1179@cs.tulane.edu> lang@cs.tulane.edu (Raymond Lang) writes:
>
>
>
>>    Just another example of _ad hominem_ attack.
>
>Right here too.  I don't like the man.  I don't think he belongs in
>the Curia.  I think he's bad for the Church.  The Pope made a mistake
>when he appointed him and I don't have any compunction against saying so.
>
>Ray Lang
>lang@cs.tulane.edu
Do you have any compunction against bearing false witness?  An insult is one
thing, (to call someone a jerk, e.g. may have its own problems but it is
just an insult) to perpetuate a lie is another.  The seriousness of associating
someone with the Nazis in our culture is great enough, that if one is going
to repeat something like this it seems one ought to be sure it is not a lie.
This is especially true when directed agains Germans of a certain age.  On the
other hand, if one does not intend it as a statement of fact but an insult, then
one cheapens our understanding of the horrors of WWII.  If Nazi becomes an insult
to be used agains people we disagree with, then we have lost sight of who the 
Nazi's were and what they represent.
Peace,
John O'callaghan


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From: rolfe@dsuvax.dsu.edu (Tim Rolfe)
Subject: Re: Altar girls and millstones update
Organization: Dakota State University
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 13:14:06 GMT

In <9210082226.AA00901@alsvid.cs.cornell.edu> "(William E. Aitken)" <aitken@CS.CORNELL.EDU> writes:

[... Excellent discussion of the FACTS in the matter ...]

>	I have been unable to find any Roman or National Documents
>post-dating the publication of the 1983 Code with Legislative
>or Juridicial authority that suggest that the prohibition is
>still in effect.  If someone can point me at such a document, I might
>believe that those who employ female altar servers are in clear violation
>of Church Law.  Otherwise, it seems to me that they are not.

Isn't it cheating to bring up hard facts in a thread like this?
-- 
                                              --- Tim Rolfe
                                           rolfe@dsuvax.dsu.edu
                                            ROLFE@SDNET.BITNET
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From: jbuffer@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (James J Buffer)
Subject: Re: Some questions
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 19:04:38 GMT

In article <Bw68xH.FL0@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> wwarf@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Wa
yne J. Warf) writes:
>First, my background:
>
>I grew up in what some apparently consider the most conservative
>Archdiocese in the U.S. <Philadelphia>, went K-12 in parochial schools,
>got a Bachelor's and Master's from a Jesuit university <St. Joseph's>,
>and was employed by the Archdiocese for 2 years as an internal auditor
><under John Cardinal Krol>. Given this background, please tell me if
>my perceptions are skewed a bit.
>
>Current situation:
>
>I'm a doctoral student and engaged to be married next June. My fiancee,
>born a Methodist, has decided to convert to the RCC. We've started
>attending Mass and RCIA together at the campus Newman center. This is
>where the questions come in. I'd like to know if certain practices are
>common that I've seen here. I've never seen them elsewhere.
>
>For example, the last Mass we attended:
>
>-the penitential rite was omitted
*This is not allowed*
>
>-the creed was omitted
>*this is not allowed at a Sunday Mass*
>-the gospel reading was an "adaptation" that I can only describe as a
> skit or caricature; it was done with Christ and the Apostles doing
> street talk. It was very uncomfortable to me and felt almost like a
> personal violation.
*This is not allowed.*
>
>In RCIA last night on a discussion of the sacraments:
>
>-It was stated as a matter of fact that the RCC has never taught that
> intentionally and habitually missing Mass was a serious enough sin
> <or a sin at all, was the implication> to disable one from receiving
> Holy Communion without first receiving absolutionThe statement
> made was that even if someone decides not to go to Mass for 20 years,
> they could receive Communion without seeking rReconciliation first.
>
*This is not true.*

>-One participant related how an acquaitance's husband was denied
> Communion by a pastor who knew he had not attended Mass for a
> number of years and had not received absolution. The speaker
> accused the pastor of being a "bad priest".
>

*this is a judgement call*
-->-It was stated that the precept requiring
receiving of the Eucharist
> during Easter time was, "to encourage people to show up at least
> once a year," but was not binding.
*No, the precept wants to encourage us to receive Holy Sommunion at least once 
a year, since at one time people would not receive Holy Communion at every Mass 
they attended. Some felt themselves unworthy, etc.*>
>Everyone there is apparently comfortable with these teachings except
>me. Is my catechism out of date? Am I just a victim of my background?
>--
*The problem is not in your set, but in the RCIA program and the Newman Center 
you attended. Flee! Find a halfway normal Catholic Church and explain to your
fiancee that the Church is a little more confused than usual right now.*


Then, write down what you have posted an send it to the ARchbishop of 
Indianapolis.

Don't give up and congrats on your engagement.
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Date:         Tue, 13 Oct 1992 15:39:28 MST
From:         Brent Winiger <ABDWINIG@IDBSU.IDBSU.EDU>
Subject:      Women Popes

I hadn't heard the story that there were three.  I read sometime back
that one woman managed to fool 'em all for a number of years & was
eventually elected Pope.  She was found out when she gave premature birth
on horseback (sounds tough) during a procession.  Since she had only been
Pope for a month, she was written out of Church history.  If there was
and credibility to the story I don't know how you'd find out.  I've read
so many outrageous Papal stories that anti-Catholics pass off as truth
that I'm pretty skeptical of most of them.

Oh yes - the woman was supposedly stoned by the angry crowd when they
discovered they'd been duped. - Rough day.

Brent Winiger
abdwinig@idbsu.idbsu.edu
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Date:         Mon, 12 Oct 1992 14:27:49 -0700
From:         "(Gordon C. Zaft)" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>
Subject:      Re: Ratzinger

On Oct 11, 10:15pm, "(Raymond Lang)" wrote:
}
} Perhaps.  Perhaps not.  Given Ratzinger's past as an honored member
} of the Hitler Youth, I don't think it's unreasonable to attribute
} such a opinion to him; and I think it's important to understand the
} biases of the people purporting to advise the Pope in moral matters.

	Whoa!  Do you have evidence for this?  If so, please send
it along.  If not, refrain.
}
} Frankly, I'm of the opinion that his appointment to the head of the
} CDF (Holy Office) was a mistake.  He displays a distinct tendency to
} repress legitimate variety and honest pursuit of the truth.  He's been
} mentioned as a possible Pope on Buehler's mailing list; and, although
} I believe his past makes this unlikely at best, the very thought sends
} shudders down my spine.

	I think the major reason he's unlikely to be Pope in the
event (God forbid!) something should happen to JP II is that his
health is not that good, from what I understand.
}-- End of excerpt from "(Raymond Lang)"



--
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
                 Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.
Stop searching forever. Happiness is unattainable.
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Date:         Thu, 15 Oct 1992 12:37:56 -0700
From:         "(Gordon C. Zaft)" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>
Subject:      Annulments

On Oct 14, 11:07pm, Jim McIntosh wrote:
}
} When faced with unhealthy and even harmful marriage situations, the
} church could be authoritarian and just restate Jesus's words ("Whoever
} divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her; and
} the woman who divorces her husband and marries another commits adultery")
} or it could look for a loving and pastoral solution.

	Agreed.  We've seen a number of support groups started for
divorced people.  And of course, divorce does not per se separate one
from the sacraments -- it's adulterous remarriage that does that.
}
} It came up with the idea of annulments, and the idea is a good one. I
} have a friend who's husband took off with a woman from his office --
} after fifteen years of marriage and six kids! What is my friend to do?
} Clearly she is the injured party here. It would be ridiculous to say the
} marriage never existed, but it would be proper to recognize that the
} marriage does not now exist. Her last name is a source of pain to her. It
} reminds her daily of betrayal. Annulments -- even though everyone knows
} they're just the catholic version of divorce -- allows her to be free of
} a terrible situation and get on with her life.

	Well, I agree it's a terrible situation.  However, regardless of
'what everyone knows', annulments are NOT 'the catholic version of divorce'
but an acknowledgement that a marriage did not, in fact, exist.  To try
to make it otherwise does violence to the truth.
}
} I think annulments are a good solution to a difficult situation, and such
} pastoral approaches should be explored in other areas. Yes, in an ideal
} world such things would not be necessary and, yes, it would be better not
} to have to take this step, but given our sinful state in this sinful
} world this is the proper and loving thing for these people to do.

	This sounds like a call to water-down Church teachings.  If you
want that, go join the Episcopalians.
}
} Jim McIntosh, SFO (jim@american.edu)
	Incidentally, Jim, considering the nature of the list, you
might want to a) remove the SFO, or b) put a disclaimer in, lest people
think you are speaking for the SFO.... I'm presuming you aren't.  Just
a word o' advice....

In Christ,

GZ



--
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
                 Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.
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From: lang@cs.tulane.edu (Raymond Lang)
Subject: Re: Ratzinger (was: Homosexuality)
Organization: Computer Science Dept., Tulane Univ., New Orleans, LA
Nntp-Posting-Host-[nntpd-1103]: hermes
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 16:59:21 GMT


In article <Bw0LHB.DuJ@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, creps@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Steve Creps) writes:
> In article <1992Oct11.221522.19032@cs.tulane.edu> lang@cs.tulane.edu (Raymond Lang) writes:
> >Perhaps.  Perhaps not.  Given Ratzinger's past as an honored member
> >of the Hitler Youth, I don't think it's unreasonable to attribute
> >such a opinion to him; and I think it's important to understand the
> >biases of the people purporting to advise the Pope in moral matters.
> 
>    This sounds a lot like an anti-Catholic flyer I saw a couple of
> months ago.  It said that Karol Wojtyla (now Pope John Paul II) during
> World War had been a salesman selling poison gas to the Nazis.  The
> flyer didn't give any sources or references, nor do you.

Well, you're right.  I don't happen to have the membership list of the
Hitler Youth at my fingertips.  I read that in a newsweekly some years
ago (the New Republic).  At the time, I really didn't think much of it,
but I'm prone to give more credence to the charge after having observed
the Cardinal's penchant for repressive tactics over the past few years.


>    Just another example of _ad hominem_ attack.

Right here too.  I don't like the man.  I don't think he belongs in
the Curia.  I think he's bad for the Church.  The Pope made a mistake
when he appointed him and I don't have any compunction against saying so.

Ray Lang
lang@cs.tulane.edu
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