From: Kevin.J.Feury@dartmouth.edu (Kevin J. Feury)
Newsgroups: alt.rock-n-roll.metal,alt.rock-n-roll.metal.heavy,alt.thrash
Subject: Re: *METALLICA RECORD EP OF EASTER SONGS!*
Date: 13 Apr 92 21:03:52 GMT
 <1992Apr10.025504.26912@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>  
 <1992Apr10.123540.1@pomona.claremont.edu>
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH

In article <1992Apr10.123540.1@pomona.claremont.edu>
cblanc@pomona.claremont.edu writes:


> >> 	You've provided what is essentially subjective information in this
> >> area; your contention is that the new album provides some form of musical
> >> superiority through better music-crafting at a slower speed.
> > 
> > incorrect. what i said was that metallica have expanded their musical
> > boundaries to include different styles of music and in the process have
> > become better musicians.
> 
> 	You've sung praises of the new album to this order in the past.  If
> this is your dominant contention, well, then, that's neat.  I think that
> they've had the musical ability to do this album for some time.  They've
> written simple stuff - and slower stuff - before, as well as tremendously
> experimental stuff like "Orion" and have come through looking good.  Here, they
> look like pop musicians.  Really, now - is this album that innovative?

it's not supposed to be innovative. it's supposed to be a return to
their roots and original style (which, if you really know the band was
orignally much slower paced and heavily motorhead influenced) the point
is that they never felt confident enough about themselves to actually
release an album of this type. after three albums of bash and thrash,
they decided to alter their style and gave us AJFA. the response they
acheived with that sparked them to do this. 
  
> > 
> >> Analyze away, but this is subjective. 
> > 
> > i beg to differ. is the better musucian the one who can do one thing or
> > master many?
> 
> 	Metallica _have_ mastered many.  Let me ask you this:  is there
> anything about "Metallica" that is unique to the band?  That is, is there
> anything in the album that another band couldn't do?

yeah. let's hear lemmy attempt to hit the high notes on that album ;')
my point is that other speed metal bands don't have enough confidence
in themselves to release an album of this sort. 
 
> > 
> >> About the only thing here that's qualitative is the
> >> complexity argument, and that doesn't take any musical knowledge to see.  What
> >> other evidence do you have?  Nothing besides vague paraphrasings of band member
> >> interviews.  Great!  Of course, we _all_ know that they'd never _lie_...
> > 
> > here you go again with your favorite argument. sure. you're right.
> > every band lies! they're all liars! gt a grip on yourself and think up
> > a realistic argument
> 
> 	Subjectivity again:  what is realistic?  Hey, if you'd been around for
> Watergate, I'd hate to see the shape of this country now...
> 
> >   
> >> > you on the other hand provide little or nothing the the way of
> >> > constructive argument. you make statements, but you don't endeavor to
> >> > provide any substance to them. thus, we are left simply with your
> >> 
> >> 	Really?  I don't think so.  What about some of my analysis of the
> >> lyrical/sonic qualities of the new album?
> > 
> > i think they're blatantly ignorant of what actually exists in light of
> > what the band says and does.
> 
> 	That's a neat opinion.  What the band says cannot be trusted; you
> yourself have made extensive comments about the power of the record label over
> the artist.  If they don't follow the party line, they'll get sued for
> breaching contractual obligations.  This put another slant on their interviews? 

no, because they write the music. the company doesn't come in and say
you must write this or that. if they did that, no one would sign with
them. what the company does is controlrelease and media manipulation.
they band can say whatever they choose. they always have.

> By now, after having given what must be over a hundred interviews on the new
> stuff, they're probably formula answering.  So even if your friend had his
> hidden tape recorder (gosh, i hope he's not thinking of becoming a journalist)
> they'll still spill out the same stuff.  What if they did deviate in an
> interview?  The rumors would kill them, and fuck things up with the label. 
> They've trapped themselves.

they haven't trapped anyone. it wouldn't be the first time a band or
bands gave conflicting views of what they thought or felt about an
album. i don't think it would alter them that much. at this point the
worst thing the label could do is cancel their contract or give them
minimal support with future releases. at this point, neither would
affect metallica much at all.
 
> > 
> >> > bandwagoning opinions. where were you when the album came out? i don't
> >> 
> >> 	Bandwagoning?  Your memory fails you.  I heard Enter Sandman two days
> >> after the album came out and thought it was a sellout.  I didn't post for some
> >> time because I waited until I had the album and had heard every song on it. 
> >> That's called giving it a fair chance. 
> > 
> > you needed six months to decide that? jesus, you really are slow...it's
> > only now that oyu and your lackeys come crawling out of the closet to
> > bitch and moan about it.
> 
> 	My lackeys?  Yeah, I have hordes of support folks ... just tons.  This
> entire subgroup is _crawling_ with people at my beck and call...power, power,
> power!

don't you wish. 

> 	After hearing Enter Sandman, I didn't want to go buy the album. 
> However, I have this affinity for Metallica and wanted to give the album a fair
> shake.
> 	Come crawling out of the closet?  Nope, I've always been very
> straightforward about my opinions...

hmmm. where were you 7 months ago then?

> >  
> >> > recall more than one or two post complaining about the 'sell-out' of
> >> > metallica. now it seems that there's nothing else. 
> >> 
> >> 	Really?  Seems there's more Nimpfer vs. Suaron than this...
> > 
> > i meant in terms of musical argument. nimper vs. suaron is all a huge
> > joke. there's nothing serious about it at all. this on the other
> > hand...
> 
> 	In terms of musical _argument_, perhaps.
> 
> 	In terms of musical discussion, I doubt it.  It varies from day to day.

of course, discussion and argument go hand in hand in this 
case  

> >> > it seems to me that you grow weary of this argument because you can't
> >> > come up with a good base or foot to stand on. once i dissect your
> >> 
> >> 	Dissect?  Dissect, my ass.  Offer counter-arguments, yes, but you can
> >> barely _read_ my statements from your interpretations.  Either that or you're
> >> just a weak CX'er.
> > 
> > that's ok, maybe you just need to look a little harder. i don't bother
> > to delete in case others should want to read the entire argument, not
> > just one little piece. now, getting back to the subject.
> 
> 	No, no, no ... what I was saying was that from the response you give to
> my statements, one couldn't tell that they were related...

i tend not to delet anything with the specific intention of including
the whole argument/discussion. it's really not that hard to follow.
 
> > 
> >> > statements, you simply seem to accept it and move on to fabricate
> >> > another falshood about the band. i'm not one of these newer fans. i've
> >> > followed the group for a long time, since before they switched to
> >> > elektra records. (did you know they had a label before that?) i even
> >> 
> >> 	Yes, I own the album on CD.  
> > 
> > which?
> 
> 	The Megaforce "Kill 'Em All."  In case I didn't tell you, I have large
> amounts of Metallistuff at home.  I keep it locked ever since one of my
> bootlegs was stolen...

glad to hear it. btw, you haven't run across  a copy of the box set
have you? my local record store got two, and i'm in the process of
trying to get my greasy, sticky, sweaty hands on one of them.
 
> >  
> >> > have the old megaforce version of KEA on album (no lyrics or
> >> > 'blitzkrieg' or 'am i evil'. what i'm saying is that i'm a very long
> >> > time fan of the band, and to tell you the truth, i think the only
> >> > change is that in speed (with a resulting slight drop in intensity) and
> >> > the choice of different subject matter.
> >> 
> >> 	That's neat.  What the hell does length of fanship matter?  That's a
> >> bandwagon argument I've seen around here before.  It doesn't matter if you
> >> listen to "Metallica" before the other stuff or vice versa; if you know the
> >> album release dates within a year or two you'll be able to figure out what
> >> happened.
> > 
> > my point is that i am not a newcomer. that i have herd all of these
> > arguments with each new album. it gets trisome listening to different
> > people hash on the same stuff. if you don't like it, fine, but don't
> > sit there and bitch about it all life long.
> 
> 	I'm no newcomer, either.  I haven't been wailing about sell-out on any
> other album - AJFA I accepted, even though I felt 'Harvester of Sorrow' was
> sell-out material.  I didn't like it as much, but, hey, that's the breaks.  The
> style was appreciably different on that one, but it didn't have that 'sell-out'
> feel like this one does.
> 	I don't sit here and bitch about it.  In fact, if it weren't for your
> urgent need to attempt to prove that it wasn't a sell-out, we wouldn't be
> having this discussion.
> 	:]

'course, i don't really have that need, i just tend to respond to overt
and unnecessary criticism of metallica. i don't even think the origin
of this discussion was a post of yours. 

;')
   
> >> > i grow weary of your type of person. the type that makes a statement
> >> > about metallica but can't back it up, so they circle around and around
> >> 
> >> 	Find one I can't back up that's not subjective.  Do you now see my
> >> point about this argument?
> > 
> > no, i miss it completely. you write about lyrics, so i cite my
> > references. now that argument is gone. you cite sound quality, so i
> > cite refernces on that. so then we go back to lyrics. back and forth.
> > back and forth. perhaps a new objection raised here or there. you're
> > entitled to your opinion, but don't try to make stuff up that's not
> > there.
> 
> 	I haven't made anything up.  It's in the finished product - the albums
> - and that's what I'm trying to bring the argument back to, not some
> potentially bogus interview pop quotes.

the albums and the interviews go hand in hand. no one questioned their
interview integrity before, did they?
 
> >  
> >> > and then try to back out when they can't think of anything new. it's
> >> > pathetic. you should at least know what you're talking about before you
> >> > open your flapper.
> >> 
> >> 	I don't know what's more pathetic, this argument or your clinging to
> >> the theory that Metallica are infallible and do not succumb to the corporate
> >> pressures of this great nation.
> > 
> > oh, they're plenty fallible. they've mad plenty of mistakes in the past
> > and will in the future. they haven't succumbed to anything. since the
> > beginning they were crushed by corporate pressure. it's only now that
> > they get the vaguest bit of breathing room to be different and pow! you
> > try to kill it.
> 
> 	Uh-huh.  More contractual obligations, pictures on every record
> store...yep, more breathing room.  Journalists crawling in and out of their
> rectal cavities...yep, freedom that is.  Financial freedom, yes.  Otherwise, I
> don't think so.

that was wicked sarcasm on my part. sorry if you didn't catch it.

> 
> > 
> >> > to quote the pyhtonesque, 'that's the type of blinard philistine pig
> >> > ignorance i've come to expect from your type of non-creative garbage'
> >> 
> >> 	This seems indicative of your style of argument.  When you reach a
> >> point where you cannot "win," you attempt to insult.  Weak, at best. 
> >> Hackneyed, in any case.
> > 
> > where have i missed any point on your argument? find it and i'll refute
> > it the best i know how. 
> 
> 	No, no, no ... you're trying to "win," and I'm telling you that there
> is no winning.  You're doing okay now on catching what I'm saying, but you
> respond with distant arguments.  See above.

there's nothing to win here. i don't think for a minute you're gonna
turn around and say, 'hey, you're right!' i'm merely stating my
opinion, much as you are, and despite efforts to the contrary, hoping
it produces some intelligent thought in the net.

-kev.
Newsgroups: alt.rock-n-roll.metal,alt.rap