From: fun5@quads.uchicago.edu (BloodWynd)
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Subject: Re: White vs. Black Dragon Kung Fu
Date: 15 Oct 92 22:38:19 GMT
Reply-To: fun5@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations

In article <marcogan-121092141132@150.203.102.25> marcogan@student.anu.edu.au (Mark Cogan) writes:
>
>Now it sounds like a very bad movie plot.

Tell me about it.  Of course, I ENJOY such movies, but then ... :)
>
>>   [I think the Kimewaza name comes from China].
>
>I doubt it. 'kimewaza' is a Japanese word, and the Japanese language
>(although it borrows from Chinese) is more closely related to the
>Uro-Altaic languages (Turkish, Mongolian, etc.) than it is to the Mon-Khmer
>languages (Mandarin & numerous others).
>
>'Black dragon' in Chinese is something like 'Hong Long" (mandarin)
>'White Dragon' is something like 'Bei Long' (mandarin) or 'Bai
>Lung'(cantonese)
>

As for CHinese,

Black Dragon = "Hak Lung" (cantonese) or "Hei Lyng" mandarin,
White Dragon = "Bak (Bok) Lung" (cantonese) "Bai Lung" mandarin

>The word for 'dragon' in Japanese is (I think) 'Tatsu'.
>>
>Which four elements? The Classical four-element system
>(earth,air,fire,water) is Greek; the Chinese and Japanese use five-element
>systems (earth, wood, metal, fire, water). 
>
Good point.

>Not many things in chinese martial arts are based on the number four.

That's 'cause the number four is bad luck according to the Chinese, since no 
matter what dialect you use, the word for four sounds very similar to the word for "to die".

>Three, five (five elements, five Shaolin animals), seven, eight (eight
>trigrams), nine (three times three), twelve (twelve Hsing-I animals), and
>various multiples of eight and nine (e.g, 64 movements in some Pa Kua
>forms, 72 or 108 movements in farious T'ai Chi forms)

21 is also a common number, and its multiples - Buddhist monks love it for some
reason.
>
>>   having a different style.
>>  
>> My sensei is doing a research on Kimewaza himself.  He has an Icelandic
>> translation of "JUDO" by R.Bowen and H.M.Hodkinson, there Kimewaza was
>> mentioned but no bibliography was given, so the source of the information
>> can not be traced.  He would be grateful if anyone having the orignal
>> copy of the book could look for a bibliography and inform us if found.
>>

 
>> My sensei learned the art from a Chinese teacher.  He says the name
>> Kimewaza is an old name, not some fancy title made up here in Iceland!
>> [To Dominik Zemmler: You say the art originates from Iceland, did you
>> base this on the fact that your teacher was Icelandic?  In my opinion
>> that is not a reasoning].
>>  
>> I'd want to know if anyone is familiar with the White vs. Black Dragon
>> Kung Fu branching of martial arts.  Those of you studying the art of 
>
>I have never heard of either 'white dragon' or 'black dragon' kung fu
>styles.

Me neither.
>
>> the Ninja, do you recall the Black Dragon Kung Fu as a name for the art?
>> 
>> From the information I've gathered so far,  Kimewaza seems to be a generec 
>> term for martial-arts defense styles.  How does that sound?

>
>The history sounds like manure to me. Firstly, the four-element system is a
>European thing, not a Chinese (or even Indian) thing. Second, the black-
>versus- white divergence seems very hokey and Hollywood. I'm pretty sure
>that the Chinese (and perhaps the Japanese as well) do not associate white
>with 'good' and black with 'evil'. 

And who said the ninja were necessarily evil anyway (besides movie-land)?
From what I understand, the ninja had their place in society, and while it
may not have been the most respected, they often worked for the good of the
people.

Third, you are yet to mention any actual
>_Chinese_ terms in your description of these 'kung fu' styles. Fourth, if
>the only reference to the stly is in a (slightly obsucre) book on _JUDO_ (a
>Japanese combat _sport_ 

Whooo boy, its a good thing people no longer flame on that last remark!
(Although I agree with the term 'sport')

invented in the last century) witten by two
>europeans, I'd start thinking seriously about the validity of your
>teacher's (or your teacher's teacher's) claims.

>
>I don't mean to discourage you from studying Martial Arts (anything but!).
>However, there are a lot of shysters out there; be careful!
>
>-Mark.

What he said.  It may be that you're learning some useful martial-0arts 
techniques, so take that and use it, but besides that .. whatever ...


-- 
Bloodwynd					fun5@midway.uchicago.edu
						fung@athens.uchicago.edu

lets ................ get .................. DANGEROUS!!!!