HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lmk@wvnvms.wvnet.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re:  Pseudo-Macedonia
Date: 14 Sep 92 20:31:24 GMT
Organization: West Virginia Network for Educational Telecomputing


3cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear), Keele University, England

>isn't it a little disingenuous to leave out the neo-fascists' coup and
>the Greek Cypriots' less than ineviable record for indulging in pogroms?

>Andy

Yeah,  It's been two years since I've been to Cyprus and I am really looking
forward to the pogroms that my family and I will indulge in.  It's been a while
since I sipped a cup of Turkish blood after dinner.

Get with it Mr. Fear.  How can you send an entire people to hell in a
handbasket?!  Through your postings it is obvious that you can't find anything
wrong with what the Turks do or have done.  (I shouldn't say that since I
haven't checked soc.turkish.  There might be some pro-Greek postings in there
although I seriously doubt it).  I feel good to be able to admit that Greeks
and
Greek Cypriots just like the British and any other people, have committed
crimes
against other human beings.  In your mind, are the Turks above any such
behavior?  Have they never committed any crimes?  Is it only the Greeks that go
crazy and without any provocation indulge in these pogroms?

P.S.  Just so that you don't think that I am anti-British I will let you know
that I will be visiting friends (British) in London for five days as of October
2nd.


Loukis Kissonergis
From: macrakis@osf.org (Stavros Macrakis)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Macedonia
Date: 9 Sep 92 17:41:08 GMT
	<4780.715942626@ohrid> <1992Sep9.025701.1773@usage.csd.unsw.OZ.AU>
Organization: OSF Research Institute

In article <4780.715942626@ohrid> sjaak@cca.vu.nl (Jacques Schuurman) writes:

   We have the very precious fundamental principle that nobody is
   guilty unless *proven* so.  You have better released a few guilty
   guys instead of imprisoning one innocent person.

In article <1992Sep9.025701.1773@usage.csd.unsw.OZ.AU>
   8800529@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU responds:

   Sounds nice, romantic even. It is not used in practice. You see in
   many cases were there is danger to siciety the suspect is
   imprisoned or has to make bail. The purpose is that there is reason
   to beleave that he will continue to harm....

I won't address the rest of the article, but a clarification is needed
here on legal principles.  In Anglo-American law (and probably other
legal systems as well, but I am not familiar with them), ``danger to
society'' is in fact NOT supposed to be taken into account when making
a bail decision.  The only acceptable criterion is whether the suspect
is likely to return for the trial.  You may think this unreasonable,
but it is the rule, and it is often enforced by appellate judges who
overturn bail decisions precisely because the original judge took into
account the potential for future harm.

	-s
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: yamen@cae.wisc.edu (Soner Yamen)
Subject: Re: how european do the turks feel
Organization: U of Wisconsin-Madison College of Engineering
Date: 11 Sep 92 00:36:55 CDT

In article <1992Sep9.194716.175882@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu> dk0a@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (DIMITRIOS KOUVATSOS) writes:

( lines deleted )

>
>Let Turkey just heed the call of the Qur'an and join its Islamic brethren. As
>Valery Giscard d' Estaing had once said, "the eastern border of Greece is the
>eastern border of Europe - beyond that, it is no Europe".

I wonder how this Mr. defines the border of Europe for 17. century. Was
the Greece an Asian land under Ottoman rule?

Just curiosity :-)

>
>Greece is still far behind, but one day it will be definitely catching up to
>the other EC countries, eventually making up the terrible loss and damage that
>5 centuries of Turkish brutality wrought. And Turkey will still be cut off
>from the Western civilization, well into its Asian/Islamic way. How deserved
>for a country that is responsible for the first genocides of the 20th century,
>and still blaming its victims, for so much suffering and destruction.
>

Europe/Western civilization/... I don't care about any one of these. They
do not make anybody 'human' in any sense. It is the European civilization
from colonial times to modern imperialism. In one century, European
countries killed millions of people just because they cannot share the
resources all over the world. Recall WW1, WW2! 

In a way you are right. In this century, European civilization or whatever
you call it dominated the world. But, in spite of all technological
advances, human kind suffered most in this century. You, Europeans,
if you like to be called so, can feed your dogs and cats with specially
prepared/balanced food, but people dies of hunger, malnutrition. You,
(sure you like to be classified with all these western so and so...)
can liberate Kuwait because of its rich oil supplies but who cares
about poor Bosnians? Even about oppressed Kurds of Iraq!

You should be proud of your heritage. It is your very own
way of life. And I am _proud_of_ my heritage. 

And it is not European. Definitely NOT!

(lines deleted)

>I wholeheartedly wish you well among the brutes. You, personaly, are not one
>of them.

I am one of them! We ruled Greece with justice for centuries. Not only
Greece but  Balkans, Middle East and North Africa.

Since the fall of Ottomans, turmoil, killings, oppression and treachery
prevailed for the people living around. Look at Middle East, Algeria,
Tunisia, Bosnia, Albania...


>
>--
>------------------------    "This is the greatest planet on the face of
>+= Dimitris Kouvatsos *=     the earth"
><dk0a@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu>
>------------------------           -- Vice President J. Danforth Quayle

My intention is not to insult Greeks or any other European people.
I think, there are individual Europeans who do not support the 
ideas/policies dominant in the Western countries. Similarly, 
you should not blame me because of the puppet regimes of Middle 
Eastern countries. 

regards,
-Soner /not European, not even Asian but a human being.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: tpd1@cec1.wustl.edu (Theodore P. David)
Subject: soc.CULTURE.greek ...mia prospatheia
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis MO
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 05:38:20 GMT

Mias kai protathike na dwthei mia pio politistiki opsi sto s.c.g. 
parathetw kai egw ena mikro apospasma apo tin apantisi tou Arxiepiskopou
Kuprianou, tis 9 Iouliou 1821, ston Tourko Pasa tis Kuprou.
To afeinw stin kupriaki dialekto.
O tourkos anaferetai stis anamikseis twn Kupriwn stin epanastasi tou
ethnous to 1821. Kataligei:
"Exw ston nou mou, Piskope, na sfaksw, na kremmasw..."

O Arx. Kuprianos apanta:

" I Rwmiosini en' fuli, sunotzairi tou kosmou.
                       (sunomiliki)
  Kanenas en evrethiken, gia na tin iksileipsei.
         (den)                      (ekleipsei)
  Kanenas, giati shepei tin, pou ta 'psi o Theos mou..."
	        (skepei, fulaei)  (upsi)

O Arx. Kuprianos apokefalistike tin idia mera, mazi me tous allous episkopous
tou nisiou.

Theodoros David
****************************************************************************
* Washington University in St. Louis, School of Engineering, CS/EE         *
* E-mail : tpd1@cec1.wustl.edu,  cyprus@maria.wustl.edu                    *
****************************************************************************
* * * * * * * *   CYPRUS IN THE EUROPEAN ECONOMIC COMMUNITY  * * * * * * * * 
****************************************************************************
From: rsakella@p4.cs.man.ac.uk (Rizos Sakellariou)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Auto to paidi... [was Re: Independent Slavo-Macedonia]
Date: 10 Sep 92 18:17:52 GMT

Grafei o Stavros Macrakis (macrakis@osf.org):
>Fenete oti diafonoume gia to skopo tou group.  Esi kai o Kouvatsos to
>vlepete san propaganda.  Profanos auta pou grafo den einai propaganda
>elliniki, giati ego ton vlepo san syzitisi anihti kai ilikrini. Mporo
>na sas po pantos oti san propaganda ta arthra sas einai mallon
>apotihia -- opos vlepoume ap'ta arthra ton mi-ellinon, ta diafora
>arthra gemata vrisies einai eksisou gelia os ta arthra tou `Mutlu',
>kai kata ti gnomi mou kanoun perisotero kako gia ta `public relations'
>tis Ellados para ta dika mou, pou prospathoun na exetisoun ta themata
>me `psihri logiki'.

Eixa diabasei to arxiko arthro toy Stavroy ap'opoy ksekinise olos o 
thorybos. Pera apo to oti diafwnw me to yfos twn apantisewn poy etyxe, 
pote den mporesa na katalabw ton logo twn antidrasewn. To arthro thymamai
oti eksefraze mia tekmiriwmeni apopsi, poy oso kai an diafwnoyse kaneis, 
mporoyse na apotelesei tin afetiria gia mia arketa endiaferoysa sizitisi. 
Sygxronws, tha mporoyse na apodeiksei oti oi Ellines einai ontws dimokrates 
kai kseroyn na syndialegontai sebomenoi tin eleftheria ekfrashs toy kathenos 
kai tin diatypwsi mias gnwmhs, oso antitheth kai an einai apo tin dikia toys. 
Idiws ayto to teleftaio, h monolithikothta dhladh, exw tin entypwsi oti 
apotelei ena apo ta sobarotera problimata toy s.c.g. stin prospatheia toy na 
peisei oti pisw apo tis ellinikes theseis yparxoyn epixeirimata. Kai to 
apokoryfwma erxetai otan syxna ta ellinika arthra synodeyontai me aparadektoys 
xaraktirismoys, apomakrynontas kathe kaloproaireto anagnwsth toys.

H ypothesi toy makedonikoy exei poikiles opseis. Yparxoyn omws stoixeia poy
h *swsti* proboli toys enisxyei simantika tis ellinikes theseis. Omws, polles
fores, oi theseis aytes proballontai me tropo, poy emperiexei entono to 
stoixeio tis yperbolis, kai ayto to stoixeio prokalei arnitika sxolia stoys
ksenoys. Kai ayto ginetai oxi mono sto scg, alla kai stin Ellada. Kai 
dystyxws, polla apo ta arthra toy ksenoy typou kryboun kai pikres alitheies, 
gia kapoies apo tis Ellinikes antidraseis. Thymamai, gia paradeigma, ton 
geniko xleyasmo poy eixe tyxei stin Ellada, h diakiriksi mias omadas kathigitwn
panepistimioy, prin apo ena xrono peripoy, opoy to geniko pneyma htan 
"oi boreioi geitones mas den einai oi exthroi mas". Dystyxws, opoios diabazei
to scg dimioyrgei thn entypwsi oti oxi mono oi boreioi, alla oloi oi geitones 
mas einai mishtoi exthroi. Den kserw, isws na einai pio ethnikistes apo mas, 
isws kai fanatismenoi, alla toylaxiston emeis, pou theloyme na thewroymaste 
"Eyrwpaioi", an pragmati eimaste ena epipedo parapanw, as prospathisoyme na 
toys feroyme sto diko mas, oxi na katebainoyme emeis s'ayto. An bebaia 
mporoyme kai an to epithymoyme...

--rizos
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: jyc@leo.Stanford.EDU (Jon Corelis)
Subject: Re: soc.CULTURE.greek
Organization: DSO, Stanford University
Date: 13 Sep 92 17:41:50 GMT

   I agree that there's a serious problem with this group, but I'm
afraid that moderation would kill it.  I've seen this happen before in
other groups -- the group goes for moderation to keep out all the
inappropriate articles, and then almost no one posts to it.

   I'd like to offer three suggestions that might improve things:

   1)  Don't read the sort of articles that you don't want to see here.
I you read them, you'll probably reply to them, and that will only add
to the noise by encouraging the obnoxious posters to post even more,
since they will know that they are being listened to.  I recall that
Pindar somewhere remarks about a scandalous myth, "Let it be drenched in
silence."  We should take the same attitude towards the obnoxoids.

   2)  Investigate to see whether your site has the nn newsreader.  If
it doesn't, then lobby your sysop to get it, or try to get an account on
a machine that has it.  It's impossible to convey how immensely easier
it is to kill off postings by subject or id using nn than it is with any
other newsreader.
 
   3)  Make a list of three topics that you'd like to see discussion of
here, and then post an article on each one.  It doesn't make much sense
to complain that there aren't enough postings about Greek culture here,
and then to sit back and expect everyone else to start posting such
things.
From: cc433336@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Constantinos A. Caroutas)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Nea Ioustiviavn
Date: 11 Sep 92 21:39:48 GMT
Reply-To: cc433336@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Constantinos A. Caroutas)
Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO  80523

Jerei kavevas pou ntav n Nea Ioustiviavn opou metaferqnke o perissoteros
plnqusmos tns Kuprou gia merika xrovia giati to vnsi to mastize, vomizw,
avombria;
--
Constantinos A. Caroutas

"It's easy to make mistakes when others will be held responsible."
Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:8703 soc.culture.europe:8267 soc.culture.turkish:9825
From: cc433336@LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Constantinos A. Caroutas)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.turkish
Subject: What? (was Re: THE NEW BULLY OF THE BALKANS (Makes one wonder who ...)
Date: 10 Sep 92 16:55:44 GMT
Organization: Colorado State U. Engineering College

In article <1992Sep10.033911.25833@u.washington.edu>,
sinan@milton.u.washington.edu (Sinan Karasu) writes:
> An OS/2 2.0 ? Hmmm. Does anybody still use those Intel machines? 
>It seems awfully archaic as I sit here in front of my SparcStation at home
>(The one connected to the network, not the other one) and ponder.
>Oh well. At least you are upgrading to OS/2  .Well don't despair, maybe
>someday!!.

What's the purpose of this post? To tell us that you have a lot of money?
Grow up.
--
Constantinos A. Caroutas

"It's easy to make mistakes when others will be held responsible."
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: c8638760@cc.newcastle.edu.au (THE MACEDONIAN STATE--------> IS INEVITABLE)
Subject: MACEDONIA FOR THE MACEDONIANS !!!!
Organization: University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 09:49:15 GMT

this is a message to the greek peoples
 i have read many articles in soc .cult.greek which are nothing but propaganda
 to me and the people througout the world.

  FOR ALL YOU GREEKS WHO CLAIM TO BE MACEDONIAN ,I THINK IS WONDERFULL
  BECAUSE YOU ARE ONLY PUTING THE MACEDONUAN NAME ON THE MAP EVEN MORE 
  SO GREEKS ARE YOU GREEKS OR ARE YOU MACEDONIANS.

  THERE IS A VERY BIG DISTINCTION BETWEEN THESE TWO PEOPLES.

  I AM VERY SORRY BUT YOU CAN NOT BE MACEDONIAN   AND   GREEK AT THE SAME
  TIME.


      IN FUTURE STOP POSTING PROPAGANDA  AND STOP GIVING THE MACEDONIAN 
 PEOPLE A BAD NAME.

                       REMEMBER !
      @    MACEDONIA FOR THE MACEDONIANS (AS A WELL KNOWN BRITISH SCHOLAR
SAID IN 1913).

      @    MACEDONIANS ARE NOT GREEK ,SERBIAN,BULGARIAN,ALBANIAN AS THESE 
           PEOPLE WOULD WANT THEM TO BE, AND MOST OF ALL ARE NOT SLAVS!

      @    LONGLIVE THE MACEDONIAN KINGS

           LONGLIVE THE MACEDONIAN PEOPLE

           LONGLIVE THE MACEDONIAN HISTORY,CULTURE,LANGUAGE(WHICH IS 
           RECOGNISED WORLDWIDE),AND THE MACEDONIAN SPIRIT WHICH WILL
           NEVER DIE.
     
      @    LONGLIVE     'VMRO' GOCE DELCEVSKI 1903

           JAS GO RAZBIRAM SVETOT KAKO POLE ZA KULTURNO NATPREVARI MEGJU
           NARODITE !
                                                            GOCE.
 

AND ARE 
           NOT MOST OF ALL SLAVS!
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: soc.CULTURE.greek
Date: 11 Sep 92 20:09:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Invention Factory's BBS - New York City, NY - 212-274-1243v.32bis
Reply-To: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 


Vangelis said:
>artical, originally interested in Greece its culture,history
>and its islands, eventually got sick from reading articles about

Panos said:
> Totally agree.  So, what do we do now?  Any ideas?

 1) Can this become a moderated group? This is probably the only real
solution. These flames have been going on forever, and it is really a
shame. Let the turks and skopjians scream and yell in s.c.europe and
elsewhere.

 2) Let's thin out non-culture related messages. IE. If we rely to one
of the Turkish of Skopjie insults, lets not cross-post them to
s.c.greek. This will reduce the number of posting and replies to
s.c.greek. Ofcource, nothing can save us from Mutlu (aka Argic) who
insists on cross-posting on anything we wants.

 3) Let's infuse some culture in this. I volunteer to type in a
reasonable amount of Greek literature (in Greek or translated) if others
do the same. Elitis, Seferis, Kavaphis, Kavvadias, Ritsos etc. One
poem a week from 7 people will be one poem a day. We have some of the
most wonderful literature in the world (including 2 nobelists, elitis
and seferis - not many nations of only 10 million can claim that).

 4) It is important to raise the quality of our participation, even
if we are responding to insults such as the ones from Mutlu. F**K YOU
type messages are good for letting some steam off, but they are not very
effective, esp since Mutlu/Argic is a professional propagandist who
does not really care what he is called. In fact any sign of frustration
from our side only brings pleasure to the little twit. Lets leave the
frustrations to the Skopjians who have been turned down from the whole
world, and whose country is going backwards when the rest of Eastern
Europe is going forward.

 Michael
From: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: An interesting poll about the feelings in Turkey
Date: 4 Sep 92 22:24:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Invention Factory's BBS - New York City, NY - 212-274-1243v.32bis
Reply-To: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 


The following is from a poll taken by the Turkish
newspaper TURKIYE and published on 31/8/92 (8/31/92),
asking Turks wow they feel about other people and other matters.

MOST DISLIKED                   MOST LIKED
Armenia - 90%                   (Turk)Cyprus - 93%
(Greek)Cyprus - 89%             Japan - 81%
Greece - 84%                    Azerbaijan - 80%
Israel - 81%                    Pakistan - 79%

Do you consider yourself
Asian - 58%
European - 34%
Both - 5%
Neither - 1%

Should Turkey persist on joining EEC
Yes - 82%
No  - 33%



------------------------------------------
Michael.
From: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: RE: SOC.CULTURE.GREEK
Date: 11 Sep 92 20:12:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Invention Factory's BBS - New York City, NY - 212-274-1243v.32bis
Reply-To: michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) 


>Suggested solutions. Have a group called soc.culture.hellenic where
>politics was not allowed? Set up a group called soc.culture.Macedonia
>or how about soc.culture.(not?)Macedonia just to keep everyone happy.
>Andy

  Is's a good idea, but let's not forget those that we have to deal with
here ie Mutlu/Argic and co. Politics is not allowed on News.sysadmin
either, but Mutlu/Argic insists on cross-posting there. In fact any
unmoderated group regarding Greece will just become another entry on the
long cross-posting lists that some people maintain.

Michael
From: am@sys.uea.ac.uk (A. Machaeridis)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Visiting Greece
Date: 14 Sep 92 10:04:55 GMT
Organization: UEA School of Information Systems, Norwich, UK.

hk0x+@andrew.cmu.edu (Harry Karatassos) writes:

>I intend to visit Greece soon and was wondering as to what sites I
>should visit.  I am interested in the 1821 revolution and the years
>before that during the Turkish rule.  I would like to see sites that
>convey the living conditions of people back then especially church and
>monastaries.  Does anyone have any suggestion as to where I should go?

Without any doubt, Kalavrita should be the first place you visit.

Tassos
From: cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Confusions...
Date: 14 Sep 92 08:40:51 GMT
Organization: University of Keele, England

From article <rsakella.716423675@p4.cs.man.ac.uk>, by rsakella@p4.cs.man.ac.uk (Rizos Sakellariou):
> \begin{enjoy}
> --   But why do the tombstones of Philip and the rest have Greek
> --inscriptions? They are not written in Greek, but in Macedonian!

No one would agree more strongly than myself that this is absolute,
utter nonsense.

> Mr. Fear, there is a lot of work on the history of ancient Macedonia
> and people who are interested in can consult it.

I am and do

> However, comparing 
> with the inscriptions that have been found in Roman Britain is totally 
> irrelevant. The inscriptions in Macedonia refer to the tombstones 
> (and not only) of the kings of an independent city-state, and the 
> inscriptions in Britain refer to a period when the island was occupied... 
> 
Unfortunately you forget there there were precious few Romans in Britain
in this period. The point about Latin remains true. Our epigraphic
record for the province doesn't merely contain official inscriptions or
those written for immigrants, but also many recording native, civilian
celts, who chose for reasons of prestige to erect stones with Latin
written on them. Still what about those modern Latin inscriptions on our coins, we're not occupied
now and the use of Greek by the very culturally Jewish Jewish diaspora
communities in antiquity?. I repeat you can't infer a
linguistic community solely from epigraphic records this is simply bad methodology. As the kings of Macedonia
had Greek pretensions it isn't at all surprising that they used Greek in
this way, but it doesn't prove they used it all the time or that they
were Greek.


Andy
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: 8800529@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU ()
Subject: Re: Macedonia
Organization: school of Mathematics UNSW
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 01:10:12 GMT

In article <MACRAKIS.92Sep9104108@next4.osf.org> macrakis@osf.org (Stavros Macrakis) writes:
>In article <4780.715942626@ohrid> sjaak@cca.vu.nl (Jacques Schuurman) writes:
>
>   We have the very precious fundamental principle that nobody is
>   guilty unless *proven* so.  You have better released a few guilty
>   guys instead of imprisoning one innocent person.
>
>In article <1992Sep9.025701.1773@usage.csd.unsw.OZ.AU>
>   8800529@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU responds:
>
>   Sounds nice, romantic even. It is not used in practice. You see in
>   many cases were there is danger to siciety the suspect is
>   imprisoned or has to make bail. The purpose is that there is reason
>   to beleave that he will continue to harm....
>
>I won't address the rest of the article, but a clarification is needed
>here on legal principles.  In Anglo-American law (and probably other
>legal systems as well, but I am not familiar with them), ``danger to
>society'' is in fact NOT supposed to be taken into account when making
>a bail decision.  The only acceptable criterion is whether the suspect
>is likely to return for the trial.  You may think this unreasonable,
>but it is the rule, and it is often enforced by appellate judges who
>overturn bail decisions precisely because the original judge took into
>account the potential for future harm.
>
>	-s

	Point accepted. So if I could refer to the original point it
shows the inadequecy of my exaple. So the correction would be, 
rather than mentioning "Bail" Should Greece give Skopjia
a chance to comit the crime. Should the world. If it has reasnable proof
that they will, should they still be alloed ?
	George
From: farber@linc.cis.upenn.edu (David Farber)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Favor , need news account
Date: 6 Sep 92 23:55:48 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania



Today I heard a snip on a news report saying that something was racing toward
Athens and that several young people had been apprehended.

Can anyone amplify that.

Many Many thanks

Dave
David Farber; Prof. of CIS and EE, U of Penn, Philadelphia, PA 19104-6389 Tele:
215-898-9508(off); 215-274-8292 (home); FAX: 215-274-8293;  Cellular:  302-740-
1198 "The fundamental principle of science, the definition almost, is this: the
sole test of the validity of any idea is experiment." -- R. P. Feynman