HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: Homophobia (really not about  Homeschooling)
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 00:37:23 GMT

In article <C0Ln7H.LDw@watserv2.uwaterloo.ca> msmorris@watsci.UWaterloo.ca (Mike Morris) writes:
>                                         Saturday, the 9th of January, 1993
>
>Mike Godwin asks:
>  Should they be allowed to fire an employee if they discover he's Jewish?
>  What if they feel that Jews undermine their "flaming fundie image"?
>
>I think I've already said that they should be ``allowed'' to 
>do this, yes.

In that case, I find it easy to imagine a reinstantiation of the 
Nuremburg race laws.


--Mike





-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution
mnemonic@eff.org| The only one that's coming."
(617) 864-0665  |                           
EFF, Cambridge  |                   --Robert Frost
From: proberts@informix.com (Paul Roberts)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Jeeves and Wooster on BBC
Date: 8 Jan 93 03:55:06 GMT
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.

In article <1993Jan7.160128.750@PacBell.COM> rjwill6@PacBell.COM (Rod Williams) writes:
>> hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu writes:
>>
>>I also recall there was a very good series of Wodehouse adaptations
>>starring John Alderton and Pauline Collins, but I can't remember if
>>any of them were Bertie Wooster stories.
>
>That rings a bell, but not loudly enough :-).

That was called "Wdoehouse Playhouse". I am pretty sure it
was made by commercial TV in Britain, and I *think* that
it didn't include Bertie Wooster stories.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: "john lovett" <john.lovett@channel1.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: academic settings
Date: 9 Jan 93 15:04:37 EST
Reply-To: "john lovett" <john.lovett@channel1.com>
Distribution: rec
Organization: Channel 1 Communications

I just finished David Lodge's hilarious book 'Small World', based on a
recommendation in a recent post, and have started 'Changing Places',
also by Lodge.

Can anyone recommend other books set in academia? Any genre will do.
I'll post the list.

The only ones I have read are 'The Groves of Academe' by Mary McCarthy,
and 'The Masters' by C.P. Snow.

I'm not sure that 'The Masters' is as well known as it should be.  It
is a witty account of the infighting for the post of Master of an Oxford
college.

--
Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: wismith@amelia.nas.nasa.gov (William R. Smith)
Subject: Re: Shouting at robots
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 93 00:18:22 GMT

Tom Maddox writes:

	In my story "Gravity's Angel" (Nov. '92 _Omni_), the protagonist
	has a couple of conversations with a defective groundskeeping
	robot--he doesn't actually shout, however, as what he has to
	say is more in sorrow than in anger.



The protagonist also calls the groundskeeping humans to fix it.
Maybe there's more to John's son's shouts than commanding the
errant robot.



William Sburgfort Smith
From: cramer@optilink.COM (Clayton Cramer)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Homeschooling (was Re: Education and the Environment by Gregory A. Smith)
Date: 4 Jan 93 22:50:49 GMT
Organization: Optilink Corporation, Petaluma, CA

In article <1i0dthINN230@agate.berkeley.edu>, spp@zabriskie.berkeley.edu (Steve Pope) writes:
> In article <1993Jan1.004152.14085@panix.com> jk@panix.com (Jim Kalb) writes:
> >In <1hvedcINNdg4@agate.berkeley.edu> spp@zabriskie.berkeley.edu (Steve Pope) writes:
# ##And what really bugs me is that the people who are killing
# ##public education by pulling their kids out of public
# ##schools have the audacity to blame the problem on 
# ##"liberal educators with their social agendas" and
# ##other imagined demons.
# #
# #Your view that it is the parents who are pulling their children out of
# #public school who are causing problems with public education is
# #surprising.  
# 
# Surprising??
# 
# Not really.  The less of a constituency public schools have,
# particularly among the educated and those of comfortable finances,
# the worse off the schools become.  

The reason for the "declining constituency" public schools have is
partly the poor job of educating they do (even with increased funding), 
and partly the agenda the left is teaching.  I don't think anyone claims 
that the agenda causes the fiscal irresponsibility.  The agenda causes a
lack of interest in increasing funding to schools already bloated
with money in much the same way that a tic bloats with blood.  




-- 
Clayton E. Cramer {uunet,pyramid}!optilink!cramer  My opinions, all mine!
C++ is to C, as lung cancer is to lung.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: rdippold@cancun.qualcomm.com (Ron Dippold)
Subject: Re: Bookstore Anecdote
Organization: Qualcomm, Inc., San Diego, CA
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 18:51:48 GMT

kamorgan@athena.mit.edu (Keith Morgan) writes:
>Andrew S Hall on the declining standards of bookstore knowledge:
>>I think more bookstores should be like Borders and have employees
>>pass tests before being hired.
>>
>>Andrew Hall

>	Really? Is this true? And if it is, isn't it discriminatory?

Of course it's discriminatory!  That's the idea - you discriminate
between those who know about the subject and those who don't, thereby
getting (hopefully) employees who can better help the customer.

Now if you mean if this kind of discrimination is illegal, I would
hope that the politically correct types haven't gotten that powerful
yet.  As far as I know, you can still hire on basis of ability.
-- 
Everyone else my age is an adult, whereas I am merely in disguise.  -- Atwood
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: msmorris@watsci.UWaterloo.ca (Mike Morris)
Subject: Re: The 10,000 nights of Mike Morris
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 16:25:00 GMT

                                         Saturday, the 9th of January, 1993

Robert McLachlan mentions the entire extant body of Greek
literature available on CD-ROM. Then commends me with this benediction:
  Keep up the good work, Mike. See you in 2020. 
  (But I was surprised to read that the Latin opus is only 1/10 the size.)

  We now return to your regularly scheduled debate on CO2, in which Mike
  takes on all of USENET single-handed.

I think maybe I should turn to the Greek, Robert. It, comprising a small
commitment of time each day, promises me a completion on a finite
and realistic time scale. Arguing with half a dozen posts by Roger Lustig,
however, promises me nothing but my getting absorbed by this machine.

                Mike Morris
         (msmorris@watsci.uwaterloo.ca)

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Dickinson (was Re: Paglia)
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 17:27:16 GMT

In article <1993Jan8.183017.23003@ecrc.de> sanjiva@ecrc.de (Sanjiva Prasad) writes:
>In article <JMC.93Jan6142030@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU writes:
>>I learned a lot from _Sexual Personae_.  It made me decide to read
>>some Emily Dickinson and Swinburne.  

>Maybe I should read La Paglia, after all, to get me to decide to read
>Dickinson.  A brief encounter with Ms Emily was sufficient to convince me that 
>she was bland, mawkish and weak.  Pale, Pale, Pale, beyond the pale of
>inspiration.  We also had a pathetic little poem on the moon as prescribed
>reading in school, and to my disgust in our 10th grade board exams (like the 
>O-levels) we had to analyse the poem, pointing out the similes, metaphors and 
>other such stuff.  I couldn't resist adding that the only point of this maudlin
>poem seemed to be to make readers suffer through such exercises (minus 5 on
>that question I guess).  So what is a *good* Dickinson to read?  I know many 
>Americans consider her a goddess, so may I have a considered opinion?

Open the Collected Poems at random.  Most of them are very short; very 
few are mawkish.  But take your time; you may need more than one reading
to get into any one of them.  Spend a day with ten randomly chosen ones.

Roger (no relation to John Cage)
From: oliver@madrone.CS.Berkeley.EDU (Oliver Sharp)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Woosterspeak
Date: 8 Jan 1993 17:28:14 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: madrone.cs.berkeley.edu

>In article <jyc.726424408@Leland>, jyc@leo.Stanford.EDU (Jon Corelis) writes:
>>    The recent interest here on the Jeeves saga prompts me to ask a
>> question that I've wondered about:  did anyone ever actually talk like
>> Bertie Wooster?  That is, is his manner of speaking an accurate
>> depiction of the speech of a certain sort of people in England in the
>> twenties, or is it an entirely literary creation? 

For those who are interested, I'd recommend Orwell's essay on Wodehouse; 
along with the WWII controversy, he discusses the unchanging sunlit world 
that Wodehouse created from his memory and imagination.  Judging by what
(little) I know about the great Plum, Bertie's summery universe was part
of a general other-worldliness; the poor fellow just wasn't capable of
comprehending the Nazi mindset (not the worst thing that can be said of
someone, I must say).

Cheers,
- Oliver

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu
Subject: RE: Paglia
Organization: Clark University
Date: 9 JAN 93 03:01:01 GMT

Mike Godwin writes:

>But, really, do we need to develop some unfalsifiable theory about how 
>arrogance is taken in one gender as distinguished from the other? 

No, but you have to admit that some traits that are acceptably "masculine"
are considered by some people (perhaps subconsciously) "unbecoming to a
woman".  The same quality perceived as "assertiveness" in a man is often
perceived as "arrogance" or "intractability" in a woman.  It's acceptable for
men to be egotistical, boorish, and selfish; women are expected to be more
"ladylike", self-effacing, and concerned about others.  These are the
traditional sex roles in our society: the man as the forceful breadwinner,
holder of power, and the woman as the nurturer, the keeper of the family. 
Like it or not, these traditional roles still influence the thought of many
people, even people (men and women) who consider themselves feminists.  

Equality means that women can be assholes as well as men.

>I honestly think that the people who are offended by Paglia's arrogance 
>and self-promotion are not really driven by sexist attitudes toward strong 
>women--primarily because the people who've been most critical of her 
>personality, in my experience, have been feminist women! 

Whatever their motivation, their attacks are alarmingly similar to those
traditionally leveled by men against assertive women.  If they criticized her
beliefs or her scholarship, that would be one thing.  When they call her
egotistical and arrogant, they're shooting themselves in the foot.

>I've seen lots of criticism of Paglia since I first started recommending 
>her book, and most of the criticism of her self-presentation has come from 
>women who see her as an enemy of feminism. If it seems that more men are 
>saying so here, consider the relative numbers of men and women on Usenet. 

I'm not just talking about the r.a.b. reaction, but the reaction I've seen in
general, including Michiko Kakutani's New York Times review of _Sex, Art, and
American Culture_.

Heather
HHENDERSON@vax.clarku.edu 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: callahan@biffvm.cs.jhu.edu (Paul Callahan)
Subject: _Science: Good, Bad, and Bogus_ (was Re: Self-knowledge of bookstore workers & others
Keywords: curious areas of ignorance  
Organization: Johns Hopkins Computer Science Department, Baltimore, MD
Distribution: na,local
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 19:06:13 GMT

fuller@athena.cs.uga.edu (James P. H. Fuller) writes:

>stoddard@ccit.arizona.edu (MJ STODDARD) writes:

>>The classic example of curious areas of ignorance (forgive me if
>>this was mentioned in the orignial post) is, of course, Sherlock
>>Holmes. While possessed of vast knowledge about ashes, foot prints,
>>and train schedules, he was actively annoyed when Watson tried to
>>tell him about celestial mechanics (So what if the earth goes around
>>the sun? What does that have to do with detection?).
>>
>>Cetainly, this is an admirable dedication to essential matters.

>     A number of Holmes scholars have claimed that SH was pulling Watson's
>leg about this, but I think it quite conceivable that he was serious.  

Also, from Martin Gardner's description of Arthur Conan Doyle (see
_Science: Good, Bad, and Bogus_), I get the distinct impression that
the author wasn't overly clued-in about that sort of thing himself. 

By the way, _S:GBB_ seriously disappointed me, because I felt that Gardner
spent an awful lot of time repeatedly trashing the same charlatans.  It
was a definite case of preaching to the choir (though, from reading sci.skeptic
I know there are people who love this sort of thing).  I would have liked
to see more about good science, to provide a reference point, and bad
science (not quackery, but honest screw-ups, such as the polywater debacle).
_Polywater_ (I forget the author) is a much more balanced account of bad
science, and also the way that good science corrects its mistakes.

Gardner's book was a collection of previously published essays from an
ongoing campaign, so that explains the lack of balance.  I just thought
the title was completely wrong.

--
"I would rather be torn to pieces by the poison-clawed cat, than to suffer one
instant of acceptance by the resident intellectuals of rec.arts.books." 
     [slightly modified; attribution left as an exercise to the reader]
              -- Paul Callahan, callahan@biffvm.cs.jhu.edu --
From: jimh@pongo.Eng.Sun.COM (jim hori)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: malcom X
Date: 8 Jan 1993 16:05:25 GMT
Organization: Sun
Distribution: rec
NNTP-Posting-Host: pongo71

In article <1993Jan7.64752.6200@kei.is.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp> isikuro@is.s.u-tokyo.ac.jp (ISIKURO Masaki) writes:
>I'm looking for some books concerning about Malcom X (who was a 
>black leader that have taken activity to acquire human rights for
>black people). Especially, I'd like to get books which contain his 
>speeches. If someone have any infomation, Please reply to this posting. 

There is a new book titled "Malcolm X Speaks Out" that blends
photographs and speech excerpts, and which includes a CD of
his speeches. Those who have seen the Malcolm X movie will
recognize many of the images. It's clear that one of Spike
Lee's working methods in composing his movie was to study
photos of Malcolm X.

....
jimh@west.sun.com
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: tmaddox@netcom.com (Tom Maddox)
Subject: Re: Paul Johnson (was Paglia)
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 09:19:00 GMT

In article <1993Jan8.220801.18406@eff.org> mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin) writes:
>In article <1ikq4gINNa58@morrow.stanford.edu> francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir) writes:
>>Mike Godwin writes:
>>
>>	Roger Lustig writes:
>>
>>		Whatever.
>>
>>	In these four lines, Roger sums up Paul Johnson's book perfectly.
>>
>>Oh my God! We're not back to those back-scratching, log-rolling days of
>>yore are we? 
>
>
>Great posting, Fido!

	I'll say!

	Yours, too, Mike!

-- 
				Tom Maddox
		    	    tmaddox@netcom.com
	"That's a bird bone chair, Bob.  I don't know if I should sit there."
				Tom Waits
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: Het Boys (was: Homophobia)
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 18:47:00 GMT

In article <1993Jan9.160643.1403@spdcc.com> dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer) writes:

>You seem to think the term "het boy" is an insult.  It's not.

It has always felt like one to me. And why the "boy"?


--Mike




-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution
mnemonic@eff.org| The only one that's coming."
(617) 864-0665  |                           
EFF, Cambridge  |                   --Robert Frost 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: davidf@golem.waterloo.on.ca (David J. Fiander)
Subject: Re: Bookstore Anecdote
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 00:20:48 GMT

According to kamorgan@athena.mit.edu (Keith Morgan):
>Certainly civil rights for the stupid is a possibility, although
>they do have to get organized to claim such rights. Although since
>people have been patiently explaining the stupidity of my comment I
>guess I might be soon petitioning for redress.
>
>	No discrimination based on intelligence. 
>
>	Nothing less than a constitutional amendment.
>

I draw your attention to a rec.humor.funny posting of some time
in the last year or so which announce:

	US Supreme Court Overturns "First Law of Nature"

Seems they found "You do something stupid, you die" to be
unconstitutional, on the grounds of cruel and inhumane
punishment.  Regretably, I don't have the whole article, but
I'm sure it's on an archive site near you.  (I am amazed to
discover that the directory-of-servers doesn't list a single
WAIS archive of rec.humor.funny.)

- David
From: hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: RE: Meet Camille Paglia!
Date: 12 Jan 93 16:39:48 GMT
Organization: Clark University

Thank you, Joshua, that was hilarious.  Made my day!

>(A publishing insider tells us that one whole chapter of _Hot For Teacher_
>is a lengthy study of George Carlin's Football vs. Baseball routine, which
>Camille compares to Nietzsche's take on Dionysius vs. Apollo!)

This sounds about right, as a matter of fact.  She's supposed to address
the topic of sports in volume 2.

One of Camille's many lapses in taste is preferring football to baseball.
I might have to go toe-to-toe with her on that one.

Heather
HHENDERSON@vax.clarku.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: Paglia (was: Cross-Writing)
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 00:07:06 GMT

In article <6JAN93.23252240@vax.clarku.edu> hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu writes:

>It seems to me like she's talking about herself (I remember the cancelled
>preface as being very personal in nature) and extrapolating her experiences
>to women in general.

Not in that particular passage in her preface, IMHO.

>I don't think so, because it would throw off her entire argument: it would
>imply that there was some possibility that civilization could have been left
>to the women (that it was not driven by men's biology).  I think she's
>overstating in her typical Paglia furious-Italian manner.

I've heard this argument before in defense of Paglia, but I can't quite
accept it. (You should know that on the WELL I'm considered to be a
fanatical Paglia defender by the politically correct contingent.)

>>Actually, Paglia seems to subscribe to this view as well. 
>
>Not really.  Not in the same Rousseauist terms that I'm thinking of.

That's true. She's no "difference feminist," either.

>>But not here--Paglia's not merely saying that men got there first. 
>
>No, but she doesn't say anywhere that women can't learn to play by men's
>rules.  

I interpret her as saying that it's harder for women to do so, and that
the difficulty lies in biology.

>In this discussion, you were the one who lumped her with them.  That's why
>we're talking about her right now.  

Mea culpa. But I've recanted since then.

>>>the latter are attempting to show that women writers are 
>>>inferior because of their "femaleness", and their inability to "write like 
>>>men". Paglia's claim would be that *all* women who write are "writing 
>>>like men". 
>
>>Logically, these two propositions are not inconsistent, Heather. 
>
>I don't see that.  The latter proposition refutes the former.

I misinterpreted you, then. I thought you were saying that Paglia's claim
was that women who write are attempting to do something that men do.
If you are saying Paglia is saying that women who write are *succeeding*
at doing what men do, I'd agree that the propositions are inconsistent,
but I'd disagree that this is a correct reading of Paglia.


--Mike





-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution
mnemonic@eff.org| The only one that's coming."
(617) 864-0665  |                           
EFF, Cambridge  |                   --Robert Frost
From: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Easy quiz answers required
Date: 12 Jan 93 19:02:02 GMT
Reply-To: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Organization: COMANDOS Project, Glesga Yoonie

ebroom@axion.bt.co.uk wrote:
> Could anybody out there help me out with the following questions:
> 1. In which science fiction world is the university librarian an orang-utan?
> 2. Which "occidental" novel includes a length description of the removal of
>    a tree stump?
> 3. Which Pulitzer-prize winning novel was released as a film in May 1992?
> 4. How many publishers turned down the manuscript for Thor Heyerdahl's
>    bestseller "The Kon-Tiki Expedition"?
> 5. Who was the first English woman to support herself wholly by writing?
> 6. Tommy Stubbins became the assistant to which fictional doctor?

As I just asked anent your similar but easier list in rec.music.classical:

7. What percentage of your winnings do we get for helping you?

-- 
--  Jack Campin    room G092, Computing Science Department, Glasgow University,
17 Lilybank Gardens, Glasgow G12 8RZ, Scotland   TEL: 041 339 8855 x6854 (work)
INTERNET: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk or via nsfnet-relay.ac.uk    FAX: 041 330 4913
BANG!net: via mcsun and uknet     BITNET: via UKACRL    UUCP: jack@glasgow.uucp
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr)
Subject: Re: Paglia (was: Cross-Writing)
Organization: UDel, School of Life & Health Sciences
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 07:38:28 GMT

In article <1993Jan7.122941.17857@eff.org> mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin) writes:
}In article <1993Jan7.073501.4999@genie.slhs.udel.edu> starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr) writes:
}
}>I didn't take Johnson's thesis therein to be that at all.  For one thing,
}>the sample was hardly representative of the great shapers of modern thought
}>(e.g., only one of the great state-of-nature political philosophers, Rousseau,
}>was included, neither Hobbes, who had chronological priority, nor Locke,
}>who arguably has had greater influence).  It seemed to me much more that
}>Johnson wished to expose some corruption in Western intelligentsia on the
}>theory that sunlight is the best disinfectant.
}
}Oh, this is nonsense, Tim. The scandals of Bertrand Russell's life give us
}absolutely nothing useful in evaluating his work. Ditto for everyone else
}Paul Johnson sets out to trash. 

I'd agree with you about Russell, but not about Rousseau or Brecht.  I
gained little insight about some of those bio'ed, and much about others.  Nor
would I say that this insight all led to negative conclusions.

}Johnson makes clear that he hopes to diminish the influence of his
}subjects by exposing their personal lives. It is an unprincipled tactic.

I may have easily missed where he makes this clear, as it wouldn't interest
me very much.  As for the principle of it, I see the book as an extended
circumstantial ad hominem that is sometimes successful, sometimes not.

Tim Starr - Renaissance Now! - Think Universally, Act Selfishly
starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu

"True greatness consists in the use of a powerful understanding to enlighten
oneself and others." - Francois Marie Arouet Voltaire