From: silber@m.cs.uiuc.edu (Ami A. Silberman)
Subject: Re: Ok Ami if you insist ...
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 20:07:07 GMT

kimmyd@bnr.ca (Kimmy Posey P920) writes:

>I tried to ignore your first post since I felt that you argument was so lame
>that it didn't deserve a response.  This one doesn't either but since I am
>caught up in this discussion due to my own lack of good sense I will continue
>to fire my weapons until I go under or run out of ammo.  First of all the
>fantasies you describe are not rape fantasies.  They are erotic sex fantasies.

OK, I think we are in agreement now. The fantasies that I described are what
are usually refered to as "rape fantasies". I've read several of Nancy
Friday's books collecting sexual fantasies, and, aside from a great deal more
graphic description, nearly all of what are catagorized as "rape fantasies"
are pretty much as I described. (Many did include the word "rape", but most
of the fantasists said that they never would actually do it, and their
fantasies were pretty much as I described.)
>At no time during a rape does the victim "want it".  Rape by it very definition
>is a violation of the victims body / soul / spirit against her (his) will.
>Let me assure you that my wife *NEVER* wanted her father / grandfather / uncle
>have sex with her.  Is this gettin' through to you yet?  
Yes, it is.
>If I fantasize about
>throwing someone onto the bed who soon becomes willing to have sex with me
>then I am fantasizing about someone who wasn't opposed to the idea in the first
>place.  She ends up begging for more?  What rape victim ever did that ?  Flush
>your head gear out before you accidently step out in front of a bus or some-
>thing.  
Look, there is no need for personal attacks. When you come in and say
"anyone who has rape fantasies is sick", without defining said fantasies as
"anyone who has rape fantasies that have a lot of versimilitude including
unwilling victims whose lives are crushed", I assumed that you meant what is
commonly refered to as "rape fantasies". I'm sorry if I offended you, but
nowhere did you explicitly, or even implicitly, state what you considered
a "rape fantasy". What I think of has rape fantasies are then, by your 
admission, essentially harmless. Thats why I had all the analogies. Its like
when a bunch of parents want to ban "wartoys" because fantasizing about 
war and killing leads to violent actions. The sort of "bang you're dead"
playing that kids do may lead to insensitivity, but thats a far cry from
pretending to be "American Psycho".
>And to compare a sick rape fantasy to dreaming about being a cop or
>formula-1 race car driver is the most ridiculous analogy I have ever heard!
I agree with you. This is the first time (that I noticed) that I've discerned
a difference between "sick rape fantasy" and "rape fantasy". You first posted
that all rape fantasies were sick. Since, in my perception, most rape
fantasies bear the same resemblence to rape as race car driver fantasies
do to race car driving, and most people never act on either, I perceived this
as both moralistic, misguided, and an attack on a common fantasy indulged
in by most people.
>Fantasy of any sort is both a way of experimenting / indulging in activities
>one whould never engage in huh ?  = B*LL SH*T! =  I fantasize about murdering
>my father-n-law and his father and his brother every day.  The one and only
>thing that keeps me from doing that is that I would end up dead and there would
>be nobody left to look after my wife.  All that junk about Civil War re-
>enactment and SCA is plain old noise.  Totally irrelevant to this discussion.
>Maybe I should say tirade as at this moment I am foaming at the mouth ... YUK!
What I meant when I posted that part was in the context about fantasizing about
"play rape", or "play-acting rape". Most people have some sexual activites that
they would like to do that their partners would not. Most people occasionaly
read about some sexual practice and wonder if it would be fun. I wasn't 
intending to suggest that people fantasize about rape as a way of experimenting
with actual raping or being raped, just that they fantasize about that sort
of play-acting, or of the sort of experience (the beautiful stranger who
ravishes one in ones sleep being a good example) that one is unlikely to
actually experience. 

>Anyway as far your fantasy about the lovely students.  Keep it up.  You'll
>do it sooner or later.

Actually, I don't have this fantasy, it was an example.
>KimmyD

>P.S.:  After you get your responding licks in can we drop this fight.  I'm
>       way tired of it and it ain't helpin' nobody.
Fine with me. As I said, I don't think we really have much of a disagreement.
It's just that I, and everyone other than yourself, have interpreted the term
"rape fantasy" to be something much milder (or including much milder fantasies)
than you were intending.  I think that both of us have misunderstood the terms,
its clear that your impression was that those who talked about rape fantasies
were fantasizing about actual violence and unwilling partners. 
	Sorry if I've annoyed you,
-- 
ami silberman - janitor of lunacy
	silber@cs.uiuc.edu
Newsgroups: talk.rape