From: a0cb@odin.cc.pdx.edu (Chris Bertholf)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: "Re: Vatican Recognition of Israel - Who Needs"
Date: 24 Dec 92 19:30:57 GMT
Article-I.D.: pdxgate.6617
Organization: Portland State University, Computing Services

Jake, of The Department of Redundancy Department :-) Writes
>In article <6401@pdxgate.UUCP> a0cb@odin.cc.pdx.edu (Chris Bertholf) writes:
>
>>As I understand the official position of the Vatican, they have no problem
>>with the reestablishment of a Jewish state, per-se.  What they have a problem
>>with is the systematic oppression of Palestinians (a minority) by the Jewish 
>>people (the majority).  
>
>While it is popularly accepted that Israel is engaged in "systematic
>oppression" of Arabs in Israel, the remarkable truth is that Arabs in
>Israel enjoy many mor freedoms than they do in virtually any of the
>Arab states.  Incredible, but true!
>

Defending improper actions based on the fact that others do worse things
is no defense.  I expected it, but it is no defense.

[ two wrongs make a right argument deleted ]

>Now what was this about "systematic oppression" in the Middle East?

Try again.  When you have an argument that actually shows how it is
alright to systematically oppress a minority, then you've made your
point, and refuted mine.  Actually, the point wasn't mine!! I was
just adding it to a discussion (that had become too one sided) to
put some perspective back into the conversation.

>>I'm not sure but I think the argument goes something
>>like: "Is it hypocritical for a subculture to claim opression by the majority
>>and insist on sovreign status while denying the same to another, equally
>>deserving group of people." I think this is the Vatican's position as to
>>what is or is not hypocritical. 

The point I originally made above isn't whether or not the Vatican also 
has done hypocritical things.  The point is that the argument is valid.
Your next statemnt is another straw man argument.  Give it up until you
have something you can actually use in an argument besides your disgust
for the Vatcian.

>The vatican's hypocrisy is legendary.  Israel isn't interested in
>lectures on hypocrisy from the vatican.

The vatican has not given Israel a lecture on hypocracy.
But the Vatican, as well as most of the rest of the civilized world, has
taken this position.  The facts are incontrovertible; the oppression is
real, the actions taken by the israeli government against pallestinians
is a violation of human decency, in many cases violates international
law, often violates the Geneva convention, and is not much better than
the way that Hitler treated the Jews around the 40's.

Herd up people, accuse them without proof, deport them, make them
live in 'controllable areas', take away their ability to make a living
by imposing curfews, take away their rights systematically (one-at-a-time),
ad infinitum, suggest that the for one reason or another (Master race, Master
religion, any difference you can think of) one set of people has a right that
another set does not, and what government in recent times are you starting
to sound like?  Nazi Germany is the answer.  Think about it, and then get
back to me about 'hypocracy'.  

Just fanning the flames a little,
Xref: sparky soc.culture.jewish:24028 soc.culture.arabic:5957 talk.politics.mideast:24153