HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Date: Tue,  8 Sep 1992 14:20:06 -0400 
From: Gretchen Miller <grm+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: History vs. dreams
	<Bu7yxD.1oK@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>

Excerpts from netnews.rec.org.sca: 7-Sep-92 Re: History vs. dreams
thomas w. barnes@silver. (5145)

> If you are in a really medieval setting and someone came up to you and
> insisted loudly on being recognized as an elf you have several options:

Or you could threaten to call the sheriff and have the person arrested
as a swindler (whatever the proper word for it is).  There is a late
period case from Northern England where a man and a women were arrested
for swindling folks out of money by claiming to be the King and Queen of
the fairies.  Seems they claimed to make wishes come true if you gave
them money....

I agree, though, nothing like a proper reaction....

toodles, margaret
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: cassie@worf.nas.nasa.gov (Cassandra L. Baldassano)
Subject: Re: Western Crown List (was Re: Inspiration)
Organization: Numerical Aerodynamic Simulation Facility NASA
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 92 20:40:49 GMT
Reply-To: cassie@worf.nas.nasa.gov (Cassandra L. Baldassano)

In article <1992Sep09.160955.31545@watson.ibm.com>, mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes: 
|> An interesting statement: So far as I know, your Crown Tourney lists have
|> only recently topped 100 fighters.  That's certainly large by any kingdom's
|> standards, but think about your statement: Are there really only 100
|> fighters in the West Kingdom?  
|> 
No, there are a lot more fighters than that. Its just a lot fighters from
the outlying areas are not always able to attend Crown events and other
fighters are only war fighters, fighters who have injuries, fighters who
are reigning, etc. And of course those fighters who are not able to make
the oath at invocation. :)

Euriol
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Sitting on the fence (was Re: Pentacles/Consorts)
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 18:14:39 GMT

In article <betel.716224720@camelot> betel@camelot.bradley.edu (Robert Crawford) writes:
>ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson) writes:
>>  Admittedly, I'm a little confused about this.  I take it that you've got
>>big tourneys where everyone bashes each other about (stage fighting?  Cool!)
>>and the winner, male or female, gets to choose their consort for some
>>period of time.
>
>	Each kingdom (of which there are twelve) holds at least two
>Crown Tourneys every year. Entrants in the combat are those who have
>achieved knighthood (shown prowess in the martial arts and been
>educated as to courtly behavior) and those who the current Crown
>invites.

Details vary by kingdom.  This is a description of the most
restrictive rules set.

>>  Is the problem that women are forbidden from the tourney, and thus from
>>the crown?
>
>	Women are allowed to enter Crown Tourneys -- I believe there
>have even been Queens by Right of Arms. (Someone correct me if I'm
>wrong, please!)

There has been one--early last year in Ansteorra (Texas).  There have
been two Princesses by Right of Arms--one in Drachenwald (Europe) and
one in the Mists (SF Bay Area).

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: tabron@binah.cc.brandeis.edu ("Sod the proles!")
Subject: pentacles on arms
Reply-To: tabron@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Organization: Brandeis University
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 16:30:41 GMT

Edward V. Wright states that pentacles are not allowed because they are not
period; they are a symbol important to and belonging to a religion which did
not exist in the middle ages.

By this I am assuming that he means that neo-Paganism is not period, which is
true, and that the pentacle is important to them, which is also true.

To say that the pentacle is not period, however, is incorrect. I suspect that I
can document a connection between witchcraft and pentacles even in period. But
I _know_ that I can document the use of pentacles by court "magicians",
who were actually mostly alchemists, in period. (I'm thinking here of
John Dee and his colleagues and predecessors.) It is a symbol with a period
usage, unlike the dollar sign or thermos bottles. I fail to see why it would
ruin the period "feel" of my arms.

Please note: If I'd _really_ wanted one on my arms I could have put it
there; a five-pointed star (the mullet, I believe) is not so far from a
pentacle that one could say there is a distinct difference in shape. I didn't
have any on my arms when I submitted them because I wanted something very very
simple. (It has only one charge.)

Judith L. Tabron		Raedwynn aet thaem Grene Wudu
Dept. of English Lit.		Yasun Bogeleku
Brandeis University		Household of the Great Dark Horde
Waltham, MA			(currently scouti-- LIVING in Carolingia)
	SAXON MONGOLS UNITE!
Darwin's Law -- If you're Dumb, you Die!
From: parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr)
Subject: Re: the same-sex and pentacles threads
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 92 20:40:45 GMT
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta

In article <BuL1A8.Dr1@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher) writes:
>The Middle Ages in Europe were a period notable for bigotry and prejudice.
>
>A mediaevally-oriented club like the SCA seems an odd choice for people who
>have a low tolerance for bigotry and prejudice.
>
>Aryk Nusbacher

You know, Aryk, that is going to come back and haunt you some
day...

I once went to hear an old jewish woman speak, she survived one
of the death camps. She said at the end of her speech, that if
every jewish family had, instead of going meekly like sheep,
leapt at the throats of the soldiers who arrested them, that
the death Camps could have never happened.

My advice to those who wish to wear the pentacle, is to do so.
If anyone gives you static, tell them politely but firmly
to "get stuffed". if they continue to hassle you, get less
polite and more firm. *Do not* allow them to dictate their
morals or view points to you. 

As for same sex consorts? This is more difficult. I suggest
that you find a fighter with a good chance at the crown,
sympathetic to your cause, and willing to raise a big fuss.

When he or she wins, have him or her say "I am putting this
person (who is same sex) on the throne, then sit back and
watch the fur fly. My guess is that the poor fighter will
at minimum be banished. If a knight, probably disgraced.
However a very large and noisy protest will have been made,
keep doing that for long enough, and perhaps you can force
a referendum on the subject.

There is an ethical question here, though: What if the majority
of SCAdians opposes same sex consorts? I personally believe that
the majority of SCAdians don't give a tinkers damn, but *if* they
hate the idea, I'd say you were out of luck.

Regards and best wishes
Carolus Malvoix
Montengarde An Tir
-- 
Within the span of the last few weeks I have heard elements of
separate threads which, in that they have been conjoined in time,
struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing
gourd. --Unknown net.person
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Pennsic prices
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 17:42:57 GMT

In article <15e63.ANN@aldhfn.akron.oh.us> ciaran@aldhfn.akron.oh.us (Skip Watson) writes:
>In article <1992Sep14.214541.1780@pbhya.PacBell.COM>,
>	whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt) writes:
>-> Hodl it!  *Pennsic* is paying the electric bill?  Why?  Isn't that
>-> part of your rental agreement with the Coopers?  (And for that
>-> matter--how much electricty is being used for a *Medieval*
>-> re-creation, anyway?)
>
>	Electricity is extra for those that want it. I think at PWXX
>electricity was costing $4.00 per day per outlet. A rather high price if
>you ask me. I don't use $4.00 a day when I'm at home.

I suspect one should think of it as renting to wiring and the
outlet--plus you'll want ground-fault interupters (outdoors in a wet
climate, after all).  However, the thought of needing a electrical
connection . . .  The mind boggles . . .  But then, there was a Caidan
group at West-Caid one year that fired up a rather loud generator to
power a waffle iron . . .

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Pennsic Land Allocation
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 16:33:33 GMT

In article <716037084.F00005@blkcat.UUCP> Dave.Aronson@f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Aronson) writes:
>aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca (A.J.S. Nusbacher) writeth:
>
> AN> If Scadians spend the cash now dropped on big, fancy, shiny dress steel
> AN> on hiring history teachers...  seminars, not swords?
>
> AN> Of course that is ridiculous.  People spend money on what they think is
> AN> important, not on what I think is important.
>
>And even that ass-u-me-s that they HAVE money; there are many who can barely
>afford event entry and cheap cotton to hand-sew into garb, let alone any form of
>armor, least of all big fancy shiny dress steel.  Don't forget, a VERY large
>percentage (anybody know just how much?) of the SCA is college students.

This adds some *major* assumptions.  We've had discussions in the past
over SCA costs--membeship and armor, mostly.  It has been shown that
armor can be fairly inexpensive.  I grant that cheap armor is going to
have large, highly polished steel surfaces (though that can cost less
than many might imagine), but functional and even period types of
armor.

I have severe reservations about the demographic issue, however.
Students are probably (proportionately) over-represented on the
Rialto.  I don't think--and I have no data to back that thought--that
the student population within the SCA is all that large a percentage.
I would be surprised if it's as high as 10 percent--and I don't
consider that a large, let alone VERY large--percentage.

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
Organization: Doctoral student, Industrial Administration, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re:  Guam
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 23:48:00 GMT

Last week someone was asking how our folks on Guam did with the
hurricane that hit there just a couple of days after Hurricane Andrew
crossed Florida (don't be ashamed if you missed the news . . . it
didn't get much play)--

Most of the damage on Guam was to military housing.  All SCA folk
there came through just fine.  Those in military housing don't have to
pay for any repairs.  The biggest problem is that there is a Baronial
event scheduled there (Guam and Tinian are the Stronghold of World's
End, and part of the Barony of the Far West--surely the largest Barony
in the Knowne World).  As of late last week, only emergeny flights
were being allowed to land at Guam it is unsure if the event can take
place.

Sorry for the delay in getting this word out.  I should have posted
Friday, but I was packing for Ducal.

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
From: whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Foolishness in Western Court
Date: 11 Sep 92 23:30:37 GMT
Reply-To: whheydt@PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA

In article <9209111232.aa23779@mc.lcs.mit.edu> KGANDEK@mitvmc.mit.EDU (Kathryn Gandek) writes:
>Quoting John >> and Hal >:
>>>To those who helped me with my foolish start: (Catrin! I got Chambers! Wow!) I
>>>swore (as Sir Tor) an oath of foolity to the Queen this weekend.  Much
>> amusement
>>>will follow.  My buffet was a bit unstandard...a fundamental change, as it
>> were.
>>
>>And here I thought the King was just bringing you to heel. . .  Given
>>one of the local popular songs, you should be glad you didn't get
>>*that* buffet in the usual place.
>
>Well, I'm curious now.  Would you care to describe this in more detail, Hal?

How can I expalin this without explaining it . . .

Thisnk about . . .

	The Buffet
	Fundament(al)
	Heel
	"Boot to the Head"

Now . . .  What could the King (sitting next to the Queen) do (without
getting up) to a fool that is getting a bit 'uppity' towards the
Queen . . . ?

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    "Boycott Time-Warner"
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |         --J. Danforth Quayle
510-823-5447                 |    "... kill all the lawyers."
whheydt@pbhya.PacBell.COM    |         --William Shakespeare
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr)
Subject: Re: Town Battle at the War
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 92 20:43:13 GMT
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta

In article <1992Sep9.192936.27407@socrates.umd.edu> sussman@socrates.umd.edu (Jeff Sussman) writes:
>>>The marshals most important defense is identification.  Putting armor on the
>>>marshals will mean that a given blow will hurt less but that they will get
>>>hit much more often.
>>
>>I would rather get dinged on a helmet all day than take a rattan stick in my
>>face once.
>>
>>Is that weird?
>>
>>Aryk
>
>It's certainly true that if we put the marshals in full armor they will only 
>very rarely get injured.  Less often than the fighters.  But if we put the
>marshals in full armor they will be less able to do their jobs.  It may be that
>for scenarios like the town battle, which requires that the marshals be in
>continuing contact with the combatants, the marshals should be in full armor.
>
>I'd hate to go to all the trouble of getting in all my armor and not be able
>to hit back.  Is that weird?

I'd like to see marshalls armour for war: a helm, dog collar, and
coat of plates, and half decent knees. Put them in belted
overtunics and breaches of some awful fluorescent colour, and
give them standardised staves.

In tourney this is of course unnecessary...but it's in melee that
marshals get whacked, and usually because a fight backs into them
while they are not watching out the backs of their heads;-)

Carolus Mediocris
Montengarde An Tir
who nearly caught a marshal
in the squires, but the rotten
bugger rhinoed!!!
-- 
Within the span of the last few weeks I have heard elements of
separate threads which, in that they have been conjoined in time,
struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing
gourd. --Unknown net.person
From: fuller@athena.cs.uga.edu (James P. H. Fuller)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Prince of Thieves wrongos
Date: 12 Sep 92 17:03:33 GMT
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens


vader@meryl.csd.uu.se ("]ke Eldberg") writes:

>The OED is clearly incomplete here. When speaking of literature, the
>word "fiction" refers to non-documentary works in general, whereas
>"fantasy" is a special genre of fiction. A book of historical fiction
>is an imagined story which happens in the real historical world, whereas
>a fantasy book takes place in an imaginary world created by the author,
>or a world which is intentionally and openly different from our reality.
>
>The Prince of Thieves clearly belongs to fiction, not fantasy. When


     Highly debatable.  There's even less evidence for a historical Robin
Hood than there is for a historical Arthur, and *no* evidence for Hood in
the time of Richard.  To put him there is fantasy in exactly the same sense
as putting Arthur in the high middle ages, _Camelot_ style.  
     There was a historical Davy Crockett and there will be, if we're care-
ful, a historical twenty-first century.  But a novel that takes Davy (coon-
skin cap and Ol' Betsy and all) and dumps him into the twenty-first century
is fantasy.

                                                 -- Geoffrey  
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Courts of Chivalry (was Re: Courtesy)
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 18:05:41 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!   Solveig wrote:

> Courts of chivalry can and sometimes do searve two important purposes:
> 
> 1) Most importantly they determine and administer a punishment to an
>    otherwise worthy and noble individual for an act which they themselves
>    regret.  These individuals generally accept their punishment, remain
>    friends with even those who officially condemn them and ultimately
>    rejoin the society as worthy subjects even after a period of
>    banishment.

Your roots are showing, Solveig: In a kingdom that hasn't held a court of
chivalry in 10 years, it's easy to hold such an ideal.  It would be nice if
the court of chivalry could be used like this, to settle a dispute between
honorably adversaries, at the end of which all parties would be satisfied.
To the best of my knowledge, no Society court of chivalry has ever
accomplished that; if the matter can be settled in such a manner, then it
never gets to the point of requiring a court.  The court of chivalry is
used solely as a tool of punishment, in an adversarial manner.

> 2) In extreme cases a court of chivalry is the mechanism by which the
>    SCA can attempt to rid itself of an individual who is actually
>    destructive. 

But it isn't: A court of chivalry cannot banish someone from the SCA.  It
can _recommend_ such a banishment to the Crown, which may choose to pass
that recommendation on to the Board.  Only the Board can revoke membership.
Since the Crown can make the same recommendation without the mechanism of
the court of chivalry, it does not really serve that purpose.

There is a value to the court of chivalry, but it has nothing to do with
the parties to the dispute: It is a way for the kingdom to make a point.
It is the strongest way we have to say to the populace at large "This is an
unacceptable thing."  It is also a way for the Crown to justify its
actions: The formal process establishes a public record of what happened
and why the Crown has imposed sanctions.  It is a formal opportunity for
the accused to defend himself, and to leave a record of that defense which
can be reviewed. 

When it comes right down to it, a court of chivalry cannot change a
person's behavior.  It cannot make him regret his actions.  It simply
doesn't have the power to accomplish real punishment.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
From: leighann@sybase.com (Leigh Ann Hussey)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Baby Announcement!
Date: 9 Sep 92 22:44:19 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Sybase, Inc.

In article <23250@sybase.sybase.com> Siobhan makes a complete fool of
herself...

So please ignore it, please please.  That's what I get for not reading
closely enough...

*blush*
	- Siobhan


----------------
Leigh Ann Hussey 		leighann@sybase.com
Siobhan ni hEodhusa, ORL, OGB, etc.
Argent, a pale vert, surmounted in base by a lion dormant or, on a chief
wavy vert an Irish harp or.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Religious symbols in heraldry (was Re: Arrow number Two)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 17:33:07 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!

Macsen wrote:

> In fairness, the SCA bans *all* blatantly religious symbols from heraldry
> as well as those deemed inherently 'offensive' (based on the world at
> large). 

This is incorrect.  The use of religious symbolism in SCA heraldry is
perfectly acceptable, and is restricted only in a few very specific cases.
The pentacle is an example of one case: an individual charge may be judged
to be inherently offensive or dangerous to the reputation of the SCA, Inc.
The second case is defined by rule IX.2 of the Rules for Submissions:

  Offensive Religious Symbolism  -  Magical or religious symbolism that is
  excessive or mocks  the  beliefs  of   others will  not  be  registered.
  Magical or religious symbolism is not usually inherently  offensive, but
  offends  by  context.  Both  devotees   and  opponents  of a  particular
  religion may be offended by an excessive display of the symbols  of that
  religion, for example, a Calvary cross  surrounded by four Paschal Lambs
  and surmounted by a crown of  thorns and a whip.  Similarly,  although a
  Paschal  Lamb is a  standard heraldic charge, dismembering the  lamb and
  surmounting it by a pentacle creates a context that could be offensive.

In some cases, a device using religious symbolism might be returned for
reasons indirectly related to that symbolism: The College generally does
not allow someone who has used the name of a deity as part of his SCA name
to register armory which includes symbols of that deity.  The relevent rule
is XI.2:

  Charge  and  Name Combination - Armory  that   asserts a strong claim of
  identity   in the   context   of the   submitter's  name is   considered
  presumptuous.  Some  otherwise  permissible names and  armorial elements
  cannot be used together because  joining the two  creates too  strong an
  association with  famous individuals from myth, literature,  or history.
  For example,  while "Rhiannon" can  be used as a  given name, and horses
  can be used as charges, the two cannot  be  used together as it suggests
  the Rhiannon of Welsh myth.  Similarly, charges  that merely allude to a
  specific name on   their own  may become   presumptuous if several  such
  charges are used.

These are the only reasons for returning a device that might have anything
to do with religion.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca