HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Jim Cook <J.Cook@ENS.Prime.COM>
Subject: Re: Prices
Reply-To: <J.Cook@ENS.Prime.COM>
Organization: Prime Computer, Inc.
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 16:26:33 GMT

In article <456@rml.UUCP> jack@rml.UUCP (jack hagerty) writes:
...
>
>Still, there are areas (such as components) where absolute *gouging*
>is going on. As C.D's story illustrates, the companies are making a
>killing on component prices. I know that inventorying/picking/mailing
>items on a onesy-twosy basis is expensive, but get real! When ordering
>the parts for my Titan model, I paid over $30 for some paper tubes,
>paper disks and metal hooks! I'm sure the manufacturing costs of
>a BT-50 tube is around 2 to 3 cents, but they sell it for $2.40 plus
>P&H. That's one HELL of a markup (1,000%)! And don't try to tell me
>that there are that many layers of distribution between the manufacturer
>and the big E for the volume they use.

Well, try buying your supplies at Belleville Hobby.  You get 30% off on
Estes there.  If you can plan ahead and are willing to buy at least a
baker's dozen, you can get 40% on body tubes at the beginning of the year.

FYI: Send $2 for a catalog and order forms to Belleville Hobby,
1827 North Charles Street, Belleville, IL.  62221 [(618) 234-5989].

Jim
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: Igniters
Date: 13 Apr 92 18:54:41 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

In article <1992Apr10.194033.25213@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>, ah157@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Rob Henry) writes:
> Thanks for the igniter info.
> I'll try it out,as for the picture wire,is it all nichrome?

All if it that I've ever seen.

> Does it say on the pack and what size would I need?

I've never seen it come in "sizes".  The stuff is all stranded anyway,
and the strands all seem to be the same size.

> As thin as is on estes solars?

Thinner than the part you see, but thicker than the part you don't see.

> If I use a lantern battery or whatever, can I use a great length of wire?
> 100 ft or so?

It's not so much the size if the battery, but the gauge of the wire.
If you want to use 100 feet of wire, you will either have to go to 
something like a gel cell and #12 stranded wire, or use a relay box.
-- 

cdt@pdp.sw.stratus.com      --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
From: Trevor J. Smedley
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: Comanche-3 (will I ever see it again?)
Date: 16 Apr 92 13:27:26 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Nova Scotia

In article <1992Apr15.142452.18369@bnr.ca> mdoug@bnr.ca (Doug MacLean) writes:
>
>ps - Needless to say, I'm not too worried about loosing sight of the Mean
Machine...

Actually, with an E15 in it, you can put your mean machine high enough that you
need binoculars to see it.  I know, I did it.  Luckily, it was incredibly calm,
and it landed within 200 feet of the launch pad.

Trevor Smedley
smedley@tuns.ca
From: marsden@ecs.umass.edu
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: I may change from fuse
Date: 14 Apr 92 15:16:26 GMT

In article <2151@transfer.stratus.com>, cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) writes:
> In article <1992Apr13.005309.8628@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>, ah157@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Rob Henry) writes:
>> Also for all of you insightful lawyers out there who have given me hell
>> through email about wanting to join the NAR wen I stated openly that I used
>> fuse I pose this question...
> 
> They're not thinking straight.  We'd rather have you in the association
> to get you educated and help you have more fun.  Some of our safest modelers 
> today are "ex-bombers" who "saw the light."

I probably shouldn't jump in here, but this discussion lightly touches
a few 'principle' buttons of mine, so those not interested feel free to
skip on to the next article.

I see two issues here driving the discussion: risk assessment, and right
of personal choice.  It is entirely appropriate (IMHO) for C.D. and others
to elucidate the basic risk assessment considerations with respect to
ignition systems.  Some people are good at evaluating relative risk
potentials when chosing a course of action, others are not, but no good
risk assessment can be made without knowledge of both the possible outcomes
and alternatives to any given course of action.

As well, it is entirely appropriate for a group event to mandate that
only the safest known procedures be used.  I surely don't want my daughter
hurt because of some bozo's ill-considered breach of safety precautions;
I govern her (and my) actions based on the assumption that safety rules at 
launch sites, target ranges, crosswalks, etc are being followed by the 
participants.

I, however, prefer to reserve the right to reassess risk/benefit evaluations
for my own actions with differing situations.  If I find that the aesthetic 
pleasure I get from launching a rocket in the privacy of my own fields using 
a fuse instead of an electrical ignition system is worth the change in my 
risk evaluations, I may well do so.  Laws & penalties governing my actions 
are also included in my total risk assessment in any particular situation.

My point, I suppose, is that there's a taint of "Holier than Thou" in this
discussion which I find distasteful and to at least some degree unwarranted.  
Your "saw the light" comment adds to that subtle undertone of religious 
gospel with respect to your arguments which ultimately (again IMHO, and 
oh so slightly) detracts from the inate value of the advice and knowlege 
you're disseminating.

I truly value your contributions here, C.D., and this is in no way intended
as a flame.  Perhaps, though, it's a little yellow flag of caution.  My $.02
(OK, so maybe its $.05.  ;-)

-- Ben

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Ben Marsden                               Office   : 34A Marston Hall
 ECS / Univ. of Massachusetts              Internet : marsden@ecs.umass.edu
 Amherst, MA 01003                         FAX      : (413) 545-0724
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: Video
Date: 6 Apr 92 20:01:29 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

In article <1992Apr2.144124.26581@cbfsb.cb.att.com>, hrbob@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (robert.e.wiersbe) writes:
> On a side note, are the Quest motors the same size as Estes? I know the MRC
> motors are 1/8" shorter than Estes from experience........

It took me a few days to confirm this, but they are exactly the same size.
-- 

cdt@pdp.sw.stratus.com      --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
From: mccarthy@toobar.zko.dec.com (Brian McCarthy)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: rockets
Date: 7 Apr 92 22:15:23 GMT
Reply-To: mccarthy@toobar.zko.dec.com (Brian McCarthy)
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation

> I haven't really built or flown any model rockets in several years now.
> Anyways, there is one I keep in my room for display purposes, namely the
> Pheonix from Este
> Anyways, if anyone knows I am just curious if this rocket is supposed to be
> to scale (it is modeled after the navy's AIM-54 pheonix missle) and if so
> to what scale?  any info would be appreciated.  thanks...
> 

I am quite sure that it's not too scale. I've spent several hours measuring and
photographing a real round at the air and space museum with the intent
of making a
scale (probably 1:1) model.

Since the nose cone on the Estes kit is stock, I'd have to guess that it
isn't scale. The real
missile has a much shorter tapered section at the nose, as I recall
(shorter than the
scaled up kit). Also, I think the fins on the real one come to far
forward to be safe on
a model rocket with passive stability.

							-Brian
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: Vashon and Cold Power
Date: 9 Apr 92 15:26:09 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

In article <3436@balrog.ctron.com>, smith@ctron.com (Larry Smith) writes:
> Anyone remember the old Vashon rockets?  The "liquid fuel" Valkyrie 1 & 2
> rockets made of metal with the RP-100 propellant?  I know Estes bought them
> out and carried some of their stuff as "cold power" rockets.  I recall that
> RP-100 was diflourodichloromethane, and probably not good for the ozone
> layer, among other things, but I'm curious to know what experiences people
> had with these rockets from the dawn of the model rocket industry.  Also,
> could such rockets be flown wit something a bit more environmentally friendly
> than diflourodichloromethane?

These rockets were severely underpowered.  I once considered using one
to build a Super Scale Redeye Missile (solves two problems: burning off
the fold-in fins, and burning off your face when it clears the bazooka)
but they were too underpowered.

> Estes marketed some RP-100-based rocket cars one year.  Did anyone every buy
> one?

Saw a lot of them run at NARAM-16.  If you ran them on a string, they
worked most of the time.  If you didn't, they went into positive-feedback
bouncy-bouncy mode and ended up on their backs spewing out all their gas.
This despite the fact that their tires were totally light sponge.
-- 

cdt@pdp.sw.stratus.com      --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: mdoug@bnr.ca (Doug MacLean)
Subject: Comanche-3 (will I ever see it again?)
Keywords: multistage
Organization: Bell-Northern Research
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 14:24:52 GMT

After reading this newsgroup for several months, model-rocket-spring fever began
surging through my viens last week, and I finally went out on the weekend to buy
everything. I bought the 'MeanMachine' (I always wanted this one) and the Comanche-3. 
 
After reading the launch instructions for the Comanche-3...I'm starting to think
that if I ever launched this thing, fully loaded, with a D12-0, C6-0, C6-7 config.,  
I'll never see it again (over 2600 feet!?). They recommend 1 tracker per booster stage, that's 2 people, and 2 trackers for the final stage, that's 2 more people; not to mention the underlined recommendation of 'only on CALM DAYS' 

Does anyone have experience with this rocket, or similar multi-stagers? 

ps - Needless to say, I'm not too worried about loosing sight of the Mean Machine...

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mdoug@bnr.ca                                          (613) 763-8719
From: mccarthy@toobar.zko.dec.com (Brian McCarthy)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: Danville
Date: 7 Apr 92 22:09:26 GMT
Reply-To: mccarthy@toobar.zko.dec.com (Brian McCarthy)
Distribution: na
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation

> Well, I know it's in Indiana.  As far as who to contact and other

Well, Illinois, but who's counting :-)
							-Brian
From: marsden@ecs.umass.edu
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: engine experimenr
Date: 15 Apr 92 15:33:29 GMT

In article <12626@pogo.wv.tek.com>, bobt@pogo.wv.tek.com (Bob Tidrick) writes:
> In article <dy8tc==@rpi.edu> vehlor@vccnorthe.its.rpi.edu (Richard Edward Vehlow) writes:
> 
>>I'm somewhat insane, but my floormate is even more foolhardy! Here's what 
>>happened:
[...]
> 
> Would someone like to foward this to this fool's Dean? This guy is a dangerious
> pyromaniac. He is going to destroy some property and possibly hurt someone.
[...]

Yup, this guy scares me too, although its a bit hard to tell how serious his
claims are, or if he's one of those who gets his jollies by goading others
on the net.  I've never been happy in the role of rule enforcer/whistle 
blower/etc, but perhaps forwarding this note to his postmaster with suggestions
that it be forwarded to local law enforcement or school security (and whatever
other appropriate persons) would be a good idea.  Yes/no?

And I've always wondered why the infantile mind is so drawn to toilet bowls...

-- Ben

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Ben Marsden                               Office   : 34A Marston Hall
 ECS / Univ. of Massachusetts              Internet : marsden@ecs.umass.edu
 Amherst, MA 01003                         FAX      : (413) 545-0724
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: Fuse
Date: 10 Apr 92 00:43:44 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

In article <1992Apr10.002136.28387@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>, 
ah157@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Rob Henry) writes:
> I'm glad some people still have a vivid imagination.

Call the folks at Estes and ask them if it's my imagination.  That is,
if they're willing to talk about the lawsuits they've had to defend.

> First of all,if I have a
> misfire I don't go stick my head directly over the rod like an ass and say "
> Hey light it again and let me see if it works this time!".

You probably don't cut hedges with your lawn mower either, but that only
says something about YOU -- not anybody else.

> If a little kid does go near it,you can do something called yelling also.

I've done my share of that on electrically-operated ranges.  With a PA.
Some people, including experienced adults, can be incredibly oblivious.
Would you depend on yelling to keep toddlers away from your swimming pool?

> When you launch a rocket,you should anchor the pad using coat hanger hooks to
> stick it in the ground with so the wind couldn't knock the pad over.

You're getting the idea.  So why be half safe?

> Also,if it's illegal,why do they sell it in hobby stores all over cleveland?

It's illegal to use it IN MODEL ROCKETS.  It's not illegal to sell it.
If the hobby stores sell it specifically for use with model rockets,
they're breaking the law.  In anyevent, most hobby shops are abysmally 
ignorant when it comes to model rocketry regulations, or the hobby in 
general.  That doesn't mean you should be.
-- 

cdt@pdp.sw.stratus.com      --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: FAA WAVERS?
Date: 15 Apr 92 19:19:01 GMT
Article-I.D.: hpcvaac.1992Apr15.191901.6249
Distribution: usa
Organization: Hewlett-Parkard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA

rbs@cyclops.micr.Virginia.EDU (Robert B. Sisk) writes:
: Recently I heard that the FAA has stopped granting wavers until some
: education process is in place (ie. the individual appling for the waver
: has attended an FAA course (Safety?)).  I was told that the current process
: was halted as a result of a violation by some Tripoli prefecture out west
: (ie. they flew without a waver).  Does anyone have any information about
: this RUMOR? 
: 
: Bob

I don't know. We are having a launch her in Oregon that has been wavered
by the FAA. I don't know how long ago Gary obtained the waver however. 

I seem to recall that the clearance is to 5000 feet. Hard to get anything
higher here in the valley - too many low level aircraft.

Bill
From: hrbob@cbnewsb.cb.att.com (robert.e.wiersbe)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Apology (was Re: I may change from fuse)
Keywords: Sorry.....
Date: 13 Apr 92 16:33:34 GMT
Organization: AT&T

In article <1992Apr13.005309.8628@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> you write:
>
>Also for all of you insightful lawyers out there who have given me hell
>through email about wanting to join the NAR wen I stated openly that I used
>fuse I pose this question...
>
>Have you ever driven over 55 on a highway?Over 25 in a resdiential area?
>The answer is a resounding YES.
>We don't tell you to leave the USA do we?So who the hell ar you to tell me
>what I can and cannot do.

Rob,

I tried to send this privately, but was unable to, so I'll make it a public
apology.

I was considering our recent correspondence over the weekend, and came to the
conclusion that even though I find your attitude and communication skills to
be seriously lacking I should have presented my responses to you in a better
way. For my own lack of communication skills and attitude, I apologize.

I'm glad that you've considered what the others have posted regarding the
subject, and that you're being very democratic about it. 

As far as the above, if you're a cop and you catch me speeding, I'm guilty and
you write me a ticket. If I'm RSO and you show up on the range and try to use 
fuse I'll stop you and ask you to use an ignitor. If you refuse, you don't 
launch. 

Bob Wiersbe
hrbob@ihlpb.att.com
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: energy required to ignite engines
Organization: Hewlett-Parkard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 18:49:02 GMT

cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) writes:
: > 
: > Yeah. I wonder if he is still making his own igniters. I wonder if he
: > has ever seen an electric match?
: 
: Thats kind of a low blow.  Harry attends and participates in his club's
: monthly launches out in the desert, which have permanent FAA waivers, and
: at which people fly all kinds of rockets on all kinds of systems.  
: Furthermore, as head of the NFPA Committee, the people he has working
: with him represent not only the major model and HP rocket manufacturers,
: but pyrotechnics experts from factory to concert hall to film studio.
: I doubt that anything in modern igniter technology has escaped his
: notice.

Yes, it was uncalled for. My public apologies to Harry. I know of no one
who has contributed more to the hobby than he has.

However, I have had both electric matches and flashbulbs set off by
static charges. The currents here have to be very low.

Guess I will just have to get ambitious and put together that test setup
where I can vary voltage and current and do some testing.

Thanks C.D. - On occasion my mouth gets ahead of my brain. Fortunately,
I do not build or launch rockets with my mouth.

Bill
From: ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Need to find: 1 1/8" od phenolic tube
Date: 10 Apr 92 18:48:39 GMT
Organization: Indiana University

Hi all..

I just need one or two of these. Can anyone point me to a source?
(Or if you have one or two lying around I might buy em off you). 
The dimension is important.


Thanks all

8-)

-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Iskandar Taib                          | The only thing worse than Peach ala
Internet: NTAIB@SILVER.UCS.INDIANA.EDU |    Frog is Frog ala Peach
Bitnet:   NTAIB@IUBACS                 !
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mdavis@alex (M. Davis)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: Comanche-3 (will I ever see it again?)
Summary: Tales from the past (high flights etc)
Keywords: multistage
Date: 16 Apr 92 21:46:45 GMT
Organization: I'm too busy to get organized.

In article <2268@transfer.stratus.com> cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares) writes:
>In article <1992Apr15.142452.18369@bnr.ca>, mdoug@bnr.ca (Doug MacLean) writes:
>> I'll never see it again (over 2600 feet!?). They recommend 1 tracker per booster stage, that's 2 people, and 2 trackers for the final stage, that's 2 more people; not to mention the underlined recommendation of 'only on CALM DAYS' 

Is 2600 feet really such a problem?  I remember my first Mosquito.  How high
is the little guy supposed to go on an A10-3T?  I think it's about 2500' (I
don't have the card that says here at school with me).

Anyway, I got a good 12 - 15 flights out of the guy, and never lost it.  On
its final flight, it blew up quite spectacularly, but I was able to recover
the little curl of cardboard that was left.  At that age, I usually used the
biggest, fastest motors I could find, which meant, after using up the pack I
would always buy at the "first flight" size, I'd always use the highest on
the list.

I think it probably helped that I was flying in southern New Mexico, and always
in clear weather...

>I was the guy with a 20-minute flight on a D-C-C combination two Chicago 
>NARAMS ago.  First and only flight of that rocket!  There's certainly
>nowhere I could fly it around here!  I sure wouldn't use the parachute
>again, either...

This reminds me of an experiment I did (also a few years back) with an 
"X-Ray" (Is that what it was called?)  It's the one with the payload area
that's a little bigger than the body tube -- but not big enough for an egg.

The 'chute was damaged in a flight, so I replaced it with a silk parachute.
Even with a rather large hole for stability, the rocket took about 10
minutes to come down.  It also made its way well clear of our field and
into the woods of New Jersey, where it took us more than an hour to find.


From the electrons of another manga lover...
***************************   Hikaru:  I'm your biggest fan! 
*    Matthew A. Davis     *  
* (aka Prince Nematocyst) *   Minmei:  Oh, do you listen to my songs?
***************************
*   Anime is cool, but    *
*    Manga is cooler!     *
***************************
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
From: cdt@sw.stratus.com (C. D. Tavares)
Newsgroups: rec.models.rockets
Subject: Re: Igniters
Date: 10 Apr 92 17:32:11 GMT
Organization: Stratus Computer, Inc.

In article <1992Apr10.150805.12601@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>, ah157@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Rob Henry) writes:
> Well,everyone seems to have their own way of making igniters around here.
> Now instead of talking about it,will you please post your methods so others
> can use them.

I thought you would have gotten the other message I posted on the
subject by now, but it looks like you didn't, so here it is again.

The 1960's cheap igniter formula is to take picture-hanging wire
(nichrome) and separate the strands.  Now take a strand and wrap it
once all the way around a ball-point pen tip, making a loop.  Don't
let the conductors touch (the loop should look like an open spring).
Now you can take the loop, dip it into a bottle of clear dope, and
let it dry.  

The loop lets you have something bulky to handle when inserting the
igniter.  It also delivers twice the heat at the tip that a single 
conductor would.  The dope provides the "fizzle" that you would get
out of a "standard" igniter, and also helps stiffen the igniter so
you don't crush it on insertion.  The dope is not strictly
necessary --in fact, I never use it.  I carry a reel of wire-recorder
wire in my range box (it's a little fine but I happened to have some) 
and I just wrap around a pen at the field as needed.

These igniters won't fire with a wimpy modern-day 1.5V launch 
controller (only Estes solars will, and maybe Copperheads).  You need
a 6V or (better) 12V battery.  

> Where do I get the items needed?
> How much does it all cost?

The hardware store, the hobby shop, and your junk drawer.  I'm
talking cheap.

> If you can show me something as economical as fuse I will change,such as the
> picture wire or thermalite???

Keep in mind that thermalite is a glorified "high-tech" fuse.
It's allowed in model rocketry because certain engines (composites)
just won't ignite off a hot wire or electric match.  But it's the
main reason for the "wait one minute" rule in the Safety Code -- no
purely electrical igniter requires this treatment.  Also realize that
most thermalite is so fast that you can't "light it and run" by hand.
A roll of white thermalite will go off as fast as loose black powder.

Also, thermalite isn't exactly cheap.
-- 

cdt@pdp.sw.stratus.com      --If you believe that I speak for my company,
OR cdt@vos.stratus.com        write today for my special Investors' Packet...