HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dan@jonas.berkeley.edu (dan graves)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Zionism is Nationalism Re: Is Zionism a form of racism?
Date: 11 Dec 1992 22:01:19 GMT
Organization: University of California Berkeley
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: jonas.berkeley.edu

In article <1483500305@igc.apc.org>, Center for Policy Research <cpr@igc.apc.org> writes:
|> 
|> TOPIC: Is Zionism a form of racism, or is'nt it ?
[load of racist crap deleted]
|> 

Zionism is no more racist than any other form
of nationalism.  Zionism is only Jewish
Nationalism,  an acknowledgement that Jews are
not safe in diaspora.  If any people has a right
to be nationalist, it is the Jews.  Any who deny
this is denying history.

dan
From: perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman)
Subject: Re: Peculiar coincidence (was Re: Collaborators)
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 16:52:47 GMT

In article <23087@venera.isi.edu> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
>I don't know what to make of this peculiar conincidence, but I thought
>perhaps some other Usenet readers might be able to shed some light on
>it.
>
>As part of the discussion thread about Palestinian collaborators, the
>following was posted by Ron Evans <revans@euclid.ucsd.edu> in the
>posting with Message-ID <42621@sdcc12.ucsd.edu>:
>
>======================================================================
>[...]
(two identical pieces of text deleted - ESP)
>
>Is this incredible or what?  I have not reformatted either of the texts.
>Note that they are absolutely identical!  Now, I can imagine that Mr.
>Evans, say, got a hold of the relevant article before Mr. Perlman, typed
>it in and sent it to his friend, Mr. Perlman, who later used it in his
>post.  That's not unreasonable.  But note that the first line in both of
>these excerpts is not part of the article, it is a supposedly original
>sentence, yet IT IS ABSOLUTELY IDENTICAL IN BOTH!!
>
>So, what's going on?  Are some people around not capable of generating
>their own posts, and instead are getting them written by others?  Who
>was the original poster here?

This is a simple, but regrettable piece of confusion.  I am the original
poster.  It seems Dr. Arens was confused by the formatting method which
Ron Evans uses.  I did not send any text to Ron, nor did he send any to
me, before either of us wrote the respective articles.  It may well be
that Ron's article arrived first on Dr. Arens' system; he is of course
much nearer to Los Angeles than I am geographically.  

Sorry for the confusion.


-- 
"How sad to see/A model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport
A battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -Tim Rice,"Chess"
     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder
From: choy@skorpio.usask.ca (I am a terminator.)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: What's the occupation?
Date: 20 Dec 1992 22:42:56 GMT
Organization: University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: skorpio.usask.ca

In article <1992Dec20.053857.20960@netcom.com>, zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd M. Ben-Halim) writes:
|> If you think that the UN is picking on Israel it is because it is
|> the ONLY occupying force in the world today.
|> If Israel ended the occupation and gave the palestinians the same rights the
|> jewish population have (no less and no more) the whole problem could be reduced
|> to isolated incidents by fanatic individuals and not a state policy.

I'm not sure what an occupying force is, and I don't know what the occupation
problem is. Can someone tell me?

Henry Choy
choy@cs.usask.ca
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: naftaly@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer)
Subject: Re: israeli extremism 1/2
Reply-To: naftaly@dazixco.ingr.com
Organization: Intergraph Electronics
Distribution: talk
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 22:47:42 GMT


In article <1992Dec10.1777.20904@channel1>, "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com> writes:
>To: Danny Keren
, and

>
> DK> You should follow recent polls in France, Germany, Italy,
> DK> and Austria. Hatered for forgeiners is immense.
>
>Have any German or French high government officials called for
>the deportation of minorities from their countries? Perhaps Le
>Pen in France has, but he is not as powerful in his country as
>Netanyahu is in his. If Le Pen were interviewed by King and
>Koppel, would they fail to make an issue of his views towards
>minorities?


The minorities in those countries are not thorpwing stones and killing the
majoriy people of the countries. 

-----
Naftaly Stramer (303)581-2370, FAX (303)581-9972    Intergraph Corporation
Internet: naftaly@dazixco.ingr.com                  Electronics Division    
UUCP: ..uunet!ingr!dazixco!naftaly  	            5101 Spine Road
Please excuse my English			    Boulder, CO 80301
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: ifaz706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (Noam Tractinsky)
Subject: Data
Organization: University of Texas @ Austin
Date: 20 Dec 92 00:13:43 CST


	Number of deaths since the begining of the intifadah, as
	reported in Ha'aretz, December 11, 1992, based on IDF 
	data:


			    	       	    KILLED BY
				Israelies    Palestinians   Total
                                
		Israelies           -             126+        126
	
	DEATHS	Palestinians     831 (923)*    809 (675)*    1640

		Total		   831            935        1766


	* Betzelem's data
	+ 48 in the territories, 78 within Israel
	

Noam

	
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Sgt-Mgr Nissim Toledano found murdered
Date: 18 Dec 92 23:36:24 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <BzBAHI.4vs@news.cso.uiuc.edu> eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>
>They found his body bound and strangled in a ditch outside of 
>Jerusalem.  Another victim of peaceful demonstrations by peace-loving
>Arabs who want NOTHING more than than to live in peace.  Right.

His death is on Israel's hands.  Israel did not want to exchange him
for Sheikh Ahmed (who is paralyzed and going blind, which is, I presume,
very humanitarian on Israel's part).

If Israel is so interested in peace with Palestinians, they wouldn't
have expelled the 400 accused (mind you, not tried in a public court. 
Even if they were, their fate would be sealed anyway) of collaborating
with the Hamas.  They were just targetted before this and Israel had its 
excuse and further justification to expell masses of Palestinians (despite
condemnation by the world community).

If Israel was so interested in peace and living in peace, they would do
everything in their power to cut to the chase on the peace talks and stop
occupying and oppressing Palestinians in the territories.

Anisa

	"We just hope that the Israelis will reciprocate and will
	not continue to creat such painful and aggrevating conditions
	on the ground that need to further hostilities and feed the
	cycle of violence.  The occupation is an abnormal, distorting
	condition.  It has to come to an end.  And I think only then
	will you see an end to violence."
						Hanan Ashwari
				Interview on ABC World News/12-16-92
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Wayne On Fundamentalism and Dialogue
Date: 14 Dec 92 01:56:04 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <1992Dec11.213135.682@cirrus.com> chrism@cirrus.com (Chris Metcalfe) writes:
>
>To my mind, most Americans despise Muslim fundamentalism as
>represented by Ayatolah Khomeini and now by Lebanese Shia
>factions, etc.  I don't agree with the shallow understanding
>that precedes this American sentiment, but neither can I
>condone the principles on which Islamic fundamentalism is
>based.

What do you know about Islamic fundamentalism except what you
hear or read in the biased media that you can make such a
judgement call?  How can you say that there is a shallow
understanding on this basis but on the other hand say that
you do not condone the principles of Islamic faith and doctrine?

Does being pro-Israeli have anything to do with you analysis?

Anisa

	"We don't live in Israel.  Not at all.  We live in
	Palestinian territory.  It's Israeli occupied."
					Hanan Ashrawi
From: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Israeli Soldiers Kill 8-Yr Old Girl
Date: 20 Dec 92 17:36:45 GMT
Reply-To: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Organization: North Carolina State University


According to the BBC, and other radio stations, Israeli soldiers shot
dead an 8 year old girl and five young men in Khan Younis in the Gaza
Strip, yesterday. Over 30 others were wounded when soldiers opened fire
on crowds protesting the deportation of approximately 400 Palestinians
by Israel. Israeli military officials claimed that it was necessary to
shoot into the crowds because they claimed that the soldiers were placed
in a situation in which their lives were endangered.

Is anyone familiar with the emotional problems that this sort of
military service has on the soldiers who have had to serve in this
circumstances? Don't these young men experience psychological problems
in their life after being made by their government to go into situations
where they are made to make the decision to shoot and kill children ....
women .... civilians? What is the Israeli government doing to its young
people by making them do the dirty work in a cruel and prolonged
occupation? Who were these soldiers protecting? ... only themselves. The
thought must go through their minds, "why is my government making me
serve in a place where no one wants me and the only person who I am
fighting to protect is myself at the expense of the lives of small
children and women". 

Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU) 
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000)
Subject: Re: Homosexuality in Islam
Organization: LC
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 19:24:11 GMT

In article <nabeel.724199840@oracle.sce.carleton.ca> nabeel@sce.carleton.ca (Rosignolo) writes:
>In <18113@autodesk.COM> mickw@autodesk.com (Mick Washbrook) writes:
>
>" We might as well ask straights to stop breeding. For all this talk of
>" Islam and homosexuality, you still can't walk down the street in an Arab
>" country without getting propositioned constantly. Jeez--I wish I had
>" as much luck in the Castro. Time for a trip to Egypt, methinks.
>
>   You probably mean Saudi Arabia, because I don't think Egypt is 
>full of homosexuals despite that most Arabs think Westerners are too 
>feminine to be considered men.
>

This is stereo-typing.  All of the Arab world knows that the fearless 
Islamic Brotherhood movement rose out of Egypt.   And the defeat of
the Barlaif Line was also done by Egyptians.  So, don't go about
saying too much bull.

>             _
> |\_________(@)= |CENSORED|    The above is fiction. I hope you enjoyed it!
>   \_\  --/ _/                      
>     \=====/       "wa lI qalamon  fI 'onmolI  'in hazaztohO            
>        ||            famA  .duRunI   'aLA  'ahoZa   lmohaNadA
>        ~~          'i_thA .sUla fawqa .Tirsi waq^o .sarIrihI
>                     fa'iNa  .sulIla  lmashrafiYi  lahO  .sudA" 
>                                           -- ibn Sana' Al-Mulk


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd M. Ben-Halim)
Subject: Re: Data
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 10:16:41 GMT

In article <1992Dec20.001343.1@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu> ifaz706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (Noam Tractinsky) writes:
>
>	Number of deaths since the begining of the intifadah, as
>	reported in Ha'aretz, December 11, 1992, based on IDF 
>	data:
>			    	       	    KILLED BY
>				Israelies    Palestinians   Total
>                                
>		Israelies           -             126+        126
>	
>	DEATHS	Palestinians     831 (923)*    809 (675)*    1640
>
>		Total		   831            935        1766
>
>	* Betzelem's data
>	+ 48 in the territories, 78 within Israel
>
>Noam
>

SO WHAT? The implication is that more people were kill by the Palestinians than
by the Israelis does not absolved the state from the killings. A state is held
to higher standard than random individuals. Resistance to occupation is quite
legitimate just as the french resisted the germans and are hailed for blowing
up germans and collaborators.

BTW, the use of IDF data is certainly questionable (they are not exactly
unbaised).

Zeyd
From: revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Destruction of Israel
Date: 13 Dec 92 22:36:13 GMT

<1992Dec13.065109.2435339@locus.com> jle@locus.com (John Elghani/10000000):

>>	How could one accomplish the destruction of Israel
>>        without destroying Israelis?


>The native of the land returns to it from refugee camps in Lebanon,
>Syria, Jordan, ...etc, then the terrorist in charge will be 
>eliminated, then Jews, Christians, Muslims, ...etc can live
 ^^^^^^^^^^


	Oooops.   Next contestant, please.




	
-- 
Ron Evans (revans@math.ucsd.edu)
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian boy
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 22:21:55 GMT

In article <23061@venera.isi.edu> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
>In article <1992Dec15.182856.23705@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
>>
>> ...  I do know that numerous
>> PLO-affiliated activists who've stated even slightly non-standard
>> opinions have been forced to seek protection from Israeli authorities
>> not for being collaborators - which they're not - but just for speaking
>> something that some party or other doesn't approve of.
>
>This often repeated claim is absolute nonsense, completely untrue.  But
>here's Mr. Perlman's chance to redeem himself: Please post the names and
>circumstances under which PLO-affiliated activists who've stated
>"slightly non-standard opinions" have "sought protection from Israeli
>authorities".  Come on.  Let's see you do it.  You say "you know" of
>"numerous" such cases.  Describing ten (10) cases would be enough.  OK,
>five (5).  Alright -- just two (2).  Can you provide us ONE (1) example
>of a PLO-affiliated activist who did no more than state a slightly
>non-standard opinion, and as a consequence was forced to seek protection
>from Israeli authorities?

An article in the last New York Times Sunday Magazine mentions how
Arabs in Israel expect to be killed by members of their own families
if they dare voice an opinion of any form of acceptance of a Jewish
presence in Israel.  The article was somewhat chilling in that it
represented a somewhat Leftist point of view, not uncommon in
journalism on Israel today.  It is illuminating that the Israeli Left
is today joining the Right in opposing Arab rejectionism and violence.


-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com              10 years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed President.
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian boy
Date: 16 Dec 92 02:34:02 GMT
	<1992Dec15.182856.23705@colorado.edu> <23061@venera.isi.edu>
	<1992Dec16.004724.8176@colorado.edu>
Organization: USC/Information Sciences Institute
In-reply-to: perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU's message of 16 Dec 92 00:47:24 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.004724.8176@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
>
> In article <23061@venera.isi.edu> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
> >In article <1992Dec15.182856.23705@colorado.edu> perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:
> >>
> >> ...  I do know that numerous
> >> PLO-affiliated activists who've stated even slightly non-standard
> >> opinions have been forced to seek protection from Israeli authorities
> >> not for being collaborators - which they're not - but just for speaking
> >> something that some party or other doesn't approve of.
> >
> >This often repeated claim is absolute nonsense, completely untrue.  But
> >here's Mr. Perlman's chance to redeem himself: Please post the names and
> >circumstances under which PLO-affiliated activists who've stated
> >"slightly non-standard opinions" have "sought protection from Israeli
> >authorities".  Come on.  Let's see you do it.  You say "you know" of
> >"numerous" such cases.  Describing ten (10) cases would be enough.  OK,
> >five (5).  Alright -- just two (2).  Can you provide us ONE (1) example
> >of a PLO-affiliated activist who did no more than state a slightly
> >non-standard opinion, and as a consequence was forced to seek protection
> >from Israeli authorities?
>
> Steven Emerson, in the November 23,1992 edition of the New Republic,
> documented two such cases, Dr. Arens; I will be happy to post the
> information when I get home.  The claim is true.  I'd like to know what
> your sources are, Dr. Arens - I think you, not I, need a chance to
> redeem yourself - badly.

"The claim is true"???  You claimed you "knew" of "numerous" such cases,
and The New Republic is not exactly a neutral source with respect to
Israel -- but no matter.  Let's see those two (2) cases.  Then we'll
talk.
--
Yigal Arens
USC/ISI                                                TV made me do it!
arens@isi.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: israel vs. world
Date: 20 Dec 92 17:57:42 GMT
Reply-To: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Organization: North Carolina State University


(Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:

    .......................... I would toss ANY terrorist in jail
    for as long as they deserved.  I don't care if they're Jewish
    or not.  A terrorist is a terrorist.  If a Jew kidnapped some
    innocent Palestinian, bound him, and stabbed him to death, he
    should be locked up for the rest of his natural life, just as
    the Arabs who killed Toledano deserve.  

Would you support the imprisonment of 1200 Jews without due process and
the deportation (without passport) of 400 Jews for the murder of one
Palestinian? 

You also write:

    I have NOT supported the deportations.

but later on state:

    I cannot speak for the world.  I can only observe.  The world
    remains silent when innocent Jews are murdered.  Israel chose
    to respond to this murder in a non-lethal manner.  I am not a
    wise enough person to explain why a non-lethal response to an
    atrocity, such as a kidnapping and murder of an innocent man,
    commands such scorn.  I can only guess why some people regard 
    expelling terrorists and murderers is worse than murdering an 
    innocent man. 
    
    [...]

    Also, the deportations are NOT permanent.  They are for about
    two years.  Furthermore, a deportee may file an appeal within 
    sixty days.  In the meantime, they will have to reside in one 
    of the refugee camps in Lebanon or Jordan.  Even in the worst
    possible case, the deportees have a better chance for justice
    than was given Toledano!
    
    The idea of having to live in any of the refugee camps in the
    region is appaling.  But that is not the fault of Israel.  If
    the nations who maintain these camps had any concerns for the
    welfare of those who had to live in them, the residents would
    not have to exist in the squaller that is being maintained by
    their so-called Arab brothers.


Do you then, not condemn the deportations even though you don't support
them? You talk about justice for Toledano but how does that relate to
the imprisonment and expulsion of hundreds of people, who even the
Israeli authorities believe are not related to the murder (indeed how
can 1600 people be guilty of one murder)?

Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Subject: Re: land for peace----- NOT!!!!!!
Organization: AT&T
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 00:29:46 GMT

In article <BzFA6x.2uJ@watdragon.uwaterloo.ca>
pasward@maytag.uwaterloo.ca (Paul A.S. Ward) writes:

>Now; if we can get the missionaries out, and keep "Serdar what's his face"
>out, then maybe we could get back to some good Jewish culture (say a nice
>OCR flame war :-)

Maybe this is the newest jewish cultural phenomenon?
-- 
Sam Saal      kingfish!saal OR saal@kingfish.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: nabeel@sce.carleton.ca (Rosignolo)
Subject: Re: Homosexuality and Islam
Organization: Carleton University
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 22:32:37 GMT

In <42375@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans) writes:

" 	From The LA Times, Dec. 1, 1992, p.H/6:
" 	"Islamic law is strictly enforced in Iran, where homosexual
"          sex is punishable by death."

    The punishment in Islam ranges from that of adultery to stoning them
to death, and then burning their bodies. The Iranian system's punishment
is moderate. If I were a head of an Islamic state, I would feed them to
lions (alive) until I can think of an appropriately severe punishment.

             _
 |\_________(@)= |CENSORED|    The above is fiction. I hope you enjoyed it!
   \_\  --/ _/                      
     \=====/       "wa lI qalamon  fI 'onmolI  'in hazaztohO            
        ||            famA  .duRunI   'aLA  'ahoZa   lmohaNadA
        ~~          'i_thA .sUla fawqa .Tirsi waq^o .sarIrihI
                     fa'iNa  .sulIla  lmashrafiYi  lahO  .sudA" 
                                           -- ibn Sana' Al-Mulk
From: choy@skorpio.usask.ca (I am a terminator.)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: WHY?
Date: 20 Dec 1992 23:11:44 GMT
Organization: University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: skorpio.usask.ca

What do people want in the middle east? Why are they not satisfied?
Why hasn't a solution been found?

Henry Choy
choy@cs.usask.ca
From: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: debate tactics
Date: 16 Dec 92 00:56:47 EST
Reply-To: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Distribution: talk
Organization: Channel 1 Communications

To: Ron Evans

 WM>Faurisson on the basis of the evidence I have seen may well be an
 WM>anti-Semite. I wouldn't cut him down by calling him an
 WM>anti-Semite, however; ...

 WM>It is remarkable that the American media haven't grilled
 WM>Netanyahu on the subject of his views about deportation with the
 WM>same intensity they interrogate other racists around the world.

I love the way a certain few users here rely upon strained
exposes of supposed inconsistencies of logic to evade dealing
with substantive debate.

Let me point out the obvious: by all means call Faurisson an
anti-Semite, if you wish. But don't rely solely or primarily on
the charge as a device for rebutting his arguments. Ditto for
Netanyahu and other Likudniks: don't rebut them by simply calling
them racists; instead expose the racist elements of their
specific words and deeds.

I've encountered many emotional pro-Israel supporters who think
all they have to do is apply the word "anti-Semite" to an
opponent, and they've won the argument without any further
effort. This is one of the reasons that many of Israel's
supporters increasingly incite ridicule around the world. An
epithet is not an argument.

By the way, Ze'ev Jabotinsky, the ideological godfather of Likud
and one of the most influential Zionists in history, subscribed
to a racism so extreme that I have no problem characterizing it
is as Nazilike in character. Can you point to any statements by
Faurisson that are as blatantly anti-Semitic as Jabotinsky's are
blatantly racist? (See the accompanying clip.)
---
  OLX 3.0 31-2557  White Light/White Heat
--
Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: Is Zionism a form of racism?
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 01:25:04 GMT

To even ask the question is to reveal oneself as a racist.

To post that fictional propaganda is to confirm that racism.
-- 
Alan H. Stein   -----  AJIN   -----  astein@israel.nysernet.org