HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bheagney@amiganet.chi.il.us (Brian Heagney)
Newsgroups: alt.cd-rom
Subject: Re: MSCDEX.EXE and QEMM
Date: 5 Nov 92 00:57:45 GMT
Organization: Amiga Network Information Systems

In article <379@infodn.rmi.de>, hikaru@infodn.rmi.de (Walter Doerr) writes:
>I would like to use QEMM to load the MSCDEX driver into high memory.
>OPTIMIZE decides to loadhi MSCDEX which complains about "Insufficient memory".
>This happens on a 386DX-40 with 4MB RAM, QEMM 6.02, and DOS 3.3. (no XMS)
>PC-NFS is installed also but not loaded using QEMM.
>
>Is there a way to get MSCDEX to load using QEMM?
>
>I have tried using the /M: parameter to MSCDEX to vary the number of buffers
>but the errormessage persists.
>
>Has anyone successfully installed MSCDEX.EXE and QEMM and can tell me if
>this is possible...
>
>
>-Walter
>
>
>-- 
>"Country music sucks. All it does is take precious airspace away from shock
> DJ's whose cruelty and profanity amuse us all."      - Bart Simpson [8F19] 
 
 
The answer to your question is very easy.

This is how I configured the CDROM part of my AUTOEXEC.BAT file:

C:\CDROM\BIN\MSCDEX.EXE /D:MSCD001 /L:E /M:8

I have had no problems whatsoever...

Here is my config.sys:

LASTDRIVE=E
DEVICE=C:\QEMM\QEMM386.SYS RAM
DEVICE=C:\QEMM\LOADHI.SYS /R:2 C:\DOS/ANSI.SYS
DEVICE=C:\QEMM\LOADHI.SYS /R:2 C:\DOS\SMARTDRV.SYS 2048 512
DEVICE=C:\QEMM\LOADHI.SYS /R:1 C:\DOS\SETVER.EXE
DEVICE=C:\QEMM\LOADHI.SYS /R:2 C:\CDROM\CHINON02.SYS /D:MSCD001 /A:324 /0
BUFFERS=24
FILES=99
SHELL=C:\DOS\COMMAND.COM C:\DOS\  /p
DOS=HIGH
 
I hope this helps!  If not, sorry, at least it is a try!  :>

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
AMIGA-AMIGA-AMIGA-AMIGA-AMIGA-AMIGA-AMIGA-AMIGA-AMIGA-AMIGA-AMIGA-AMIGA-AMIGA
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| BHEAGNEY | AmigaNetwork (708)983-6435 | Telecommunications-Student.Data!! |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.cd-rom
From: PAOLIVER@INDYVAX.BITNET
Subject: Re: Quality, Gill Pratt's msg. / Mike Axman's reply
Reply-To: PAOLIVER@INDYVAX.bitnet
Organization: FUNET-NGW
Distribution: alt
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 09:03:06 GMT

  Incremental improvement is fine. A lot of progress is evolutionary and
not revolutionary. However, one example of a crippling evolutionary
step was the Intel 8086/80286. Yahwah only knows how many literally
millions of man hours of programming time have been spent trying to
circumvent the dumb limitations of Intel's stupid enhancement of the
8080 by adding segment registers to form 20 bit addresses. It was *simple*,
you see... just add another 16 bit register (actually, several) and
add its value shifted left by 4 bits, quick and dirty in hardware. As
opposed to Motorola, circa the same time, with genuine 32 bit registers
and operations (the 68000 family). But due to IBMs clout, the radically
inferior 8088 and its successors became essentially dominent in PCs.
Even in 1992, 32 bit IBM PC software is very rare, except for Windows
itself. The legacy of stupid pragmatic and cheap decisions may last for
decades if a big enough force is behind it.
  Kodak has the money and therefore the potential to hire adequate
brainpower to improve on techniques over Huffman coding while still
maintaining adequate performance. Hey Mike, this is 1992. Digital signal
processors are CHEAP. Price out the TMS 32010, the Motorola 56001,
the AT&T family, the Analog Devices family, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.
Lots of bit manipulation horsepower. Not to mention ASICs. Kodak easily
has the resources to do real engineering -- "an engineer is a man who
can do for a penny what any fool can do for a dollar."  There are
plenty of possibilities. Better programmers to write efficient code for
"standard" processors, or better E.E.'s to take advantage of cheap fast
hardware -- or both.
  Kodak has codified an inferior, ancient technology for at least the next
10-20 years. Congratulations.
  To give credit, it is becoming clearer in retrospect that there are
many pieces to the Photo CD puzzle; different format types, multimedia
aspects waiting to be used, security serialization, etc. I'm simply
maintaining that the technology exists to do better, and Kodak didn't
do it. After all, if even a modest 2-fold improvement in compression
were used, 200 pictures and not 100 could be put onto a disk (roughly).
This means disk sales are cut in half. No, usage of antique compression
methods was probably deliberate.
From: adrie@ica.philips.nl (Adrie Koolen)
Newsgroups: alt.cd-rom
Subject: Re: CDROM-XA and Photo-CD
Date: 9 Nov 92 09:04:24 GMT
Organization: Philips Consumer Electronics, Eindhoven, The Netherlands

In article <1dc6bnINNs82@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> pustule@cats.ucsc.edu (Thaddeus H. Wood) writes:
>What is CDROM-XA?  

CDROM-XA specifies a `bridge format' so that a CDROM-XA disc can be read
on a CD-I player as well as on a PC under MSCDEX (provided that you use
a conforming (.SYS) driver. On a normal yellow-book CDROM, a data track
contains only mode-1 data sectors. On a CDROM-XA, a (the) data track
contains only mode-2 data sectors. A mode-2 sector can be of two formats,
form-1 and form-2. A form-1 sector contains 2048 bytes of user data,
together with EDC and ECC bytes. A form-2 sector contains 2324 bytes of
raw data (e.g. ADPCM audio or video data). If the device driver delivers
2048 bytes of data when MSCDEX asks for it, regardless whether the sector
is mode-1 or mode-2/form-1, the PC is CDROM-XA compatible.

>I want a really quick drive, perhaps the NEC CDR-74a?
>And I want to be able to read Photo-CD disks, as well
>as the CD-I, and XA.  Basically, I want a drive that
>will do it all, and do it quickly.  
>
>Is there such an animal?  Or am I asking for too much?

The NEC CDR-74/84 will read sectors from CDROM's, CDROM-XA's and CD-I's.
Interpreting them is another problem. For interpreting Photo-CD's, you
will need the Kodak Photo-CD Access software. You can't play a CD-I on
a PC unless you can get the PC to emulate a CD-I player with all its
complex video and audio features. MSCDEX also isn't able to read the
CD-I file system, but this might be fairly easy to fix, I don't know.

Adrie Koolen (adrie@ica.philips.nl)
Philips Consumer Electronics, Eindhoven, the Netherlands
Newsgroups: alt.cd-rom
From: osuch@islsun.Kodak.COM (Bill O'Such)
Subject: anonymous ftp site to put Photo CD information ?
Organization: Eastman Kodak Co., Rochester, NY
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 92 22:37:32 GMT

I'm posting this for Paul McAfee (mcafee@kodak.com) in corporate
communications as his connection is down.  Is there an anonymous
ftp site for alt.cdrom that Photo CD information can be ftp'd to ?
He'd like to put that information out there to clarify some of the
many issues that have been posted over the last few weeks.

Bill O'Such
Eastman Kodak Company


DISCLAIMER:
Kodak gives me this Net access for free, but they aren't
responsible for my postings.
Newsgroups: alt.cd-rom
From: jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond)
Subject: Re: Photo-CD and Corel Draw
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 04:39:44 GMT
Organization: Dixie Communications Public Access.  The Mouth of the South.
Keywords: Photo-CD

vsonerud@Siri.Unit.NO (Vidar Sonerud) writes:

>I have Corel Draw 3.0 for PC, but have not been able to read Photo-CD files, 
>that is the 'raw format' files (*.pcd).

You need to call Corel tech support and order the free maintenance release.
The Photo-CD was included in this release.  Interestingly enough, my
original disk is labeled "3.0 A" while the update disk is simply labeled
"3.0".

John

-- 
John De Armond, WD4OQC               |Interested in high performance mobility?  
Performance Engineering Magazine (TM) |
Marietta, Ga                         |Interested in high tech and computers? 
jgd@dixie.com                        |Write me about PE Magazine
Need Usenet public Access in Atlanta?  Write Me for info on Dixie.com.
From: jmj5g@galen.med.Virginia.EDU (John M. Jackson)
Newsgroups: alt.cd-rom
Subject: Re: Kodak Photo CD
Date: 4 Nov 92 14:21:22 GMT
Distribution: alt
Organization: University of Virginia

iah@DMU.AC.UK  writes:
> Hi,
> 
> I'm not a subscriber to this list so please reply direct....
> 
> A colleage of ours has just purchased the Photo CD system, with it came
> some demo disks.  We were under the impression that the first session of
> the discs could be read in standard CD drives (MSCDEX/MPC spec.).  Yet
> when we attempt to access the disc, we get 'Drive not ready' errors.
> 
Phot CD requires a CD-ROM XA drive such as the NEC CDR-74 or
84, or Apple's new CD300 made by Sony (no external version
available until January.)
--
John Jackson                            jmj5g@galen.med.virginia.edu
Office of Medical Education             jmj5g@virginia.edu
University of Virginia                  (804)924-5839
From: adrie@ica.philips.nl (Adrie Koolen)
Newsgroups: alt.cd-rom
Subject: Re: Info on CD-ROM Drives
Date: 6 Nov 92 08:15:56 GMT
Organization: Philips Consumer Electronics, Eindhoven, The Netherlands

In article <Bx8IKD.CCB@iat.holonet.net> bwilliam@iat.holonet.net (Bill Williams) writes:
>The NEC "83" I have come with documentation stating that it is 150K/sec
>but bechmarks prove beyond
>doubt that the drive is a double speed 300 K/Sec device

But it won't stream data at 300KB/s, unless you've got one with firmware
release 1.2 (the 'M' version).

Adrie Koolen (adrie@ica.philips.nl)
Philips Consumer Electronics, Eindhoven, the Netherlands
From: jegm@cody.esd.sgi.com (Jim Morris)
Newsgroups: alt.cd-rom
Subject: Photo-CD and Adaptec anyone?
Keywords: photo cd adaptec scsi
Date: 13 Nov 92 19:37:40 GMT
Reply-To: jegm@esd.sgi.com
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.

Is anyone using *ANY* CDROM drive with an adaptec scsi board (1542 or 1522)
and the *standard* ASPI and ASW410 drivers, and successfully reading
a Kodak Photo CD?

I need to know if Adaptecs S/W can read Photo CD before I send my NEC CDR84
back for the upgrade/fix for Photo CD.

Thanks


-- 
Jim Morris, Email: jegm@esd.sgi.com  Voice: (415) 390-5136
Newsgroups: alt.cd-rom
From: chuck@eng.umd.edu (Chuck Harris - WA3UQV)
Subject: Re: Caddyless CD-ROM Drives for the Mac?
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 14:01:54 GMT
Organization: University of Maryland, Department of Electrical Engineering

In article <1992Nov9.195649.14861@cs.ucla.edu> tj@kona.cs.ucla.edu (Tom Johnson) writes:
...stuff about fast caddyless CDROM players...

>For that matter, why are they so ubiquitous in the data world and
>so conspicuously absent from the audio world.  I can't believe that it's
>to protect the disk - they get as much (or more) wear from being
>loaded into the caddies, I would think.

Speaking for myself of course, I buy a caddy for each CD that I have, and only
load the caddy once.  I believe that this is what the drive manufacturers 
intended for you to do with your caddies.

Chuck Harris - WA3UQV
chuck@eng.umd.edu
Newsgroups: alt.cd-rom
From: mcafee@acadia.Kodak.COM (Paul McAfee)
Subject: Photo CD (Mike Meyer's Question)
Keywords: Photo CD Code Kodak 
Organization: Eastman Kodak Co., Rochester, NY
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 92 17:46:50 GMT

Mike Meyer asks that I post information on obtaining access to code, or
operating system licenses, etc.  We are working on more general statements
that I will post when we have them worked out.

Meanwhile, we have a staff of people who will help you connect with the 
person at Kodak who can help the most.  There are several ways to become 
involved with Photo CD, so it is important to understand your specific needs
before directing you to one of our technical or management people.

In the U.S., call 800-242-2424, extension 53.  One person you could ask for is
Paul Wisoztke.  (Gee, I hope I spelled his name right.)  Outside the U.S., you
can call 716-724-1024.  This will get you to the same people.

Paul W. and his team are working to get online on all of the computer
networks, including CompuServe,  Prodigy, America Online, GEnie, AppleLink,
and eventually, Internet.  This will take some time, and the excercise only
began about a week ago.  When they are online, they will be better able to 
answer some of the technical questions here.

Paul McAfee
mcafee@acadia.kodak.com

Xref: sparky alt.cd-rom:4466 comp.os.os2.misc:36347
From: shapiro@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Brian Shapiro)
Newsgroups: alt.cd-rom,comp.os.os2.misc
Subject: CDROM, OS/2, STANDARD EISA 486DXII-50
Keywords: IRQs,OS/2,CDROM,DTC3150
Date: 13 Nov 92 13:45:26 GMT
Followup-To: poster
Organization: Ohio University C.S. Dept, Athens


I am trying to help a friend install a NEC 84 CDROM into his
Standard 486DXII-50 PC Compatible. I have tried to install
a FAX modem previously but had difficulty because it wanted to 
share IRQs with the other COM ports (ie. COM3 used IRQ4 and
COM4 used IRQ3 lust like COM1 and COM2 respectively). It
seems that this is a no no under OS/2 (please correct me if
I am wrong!!!!). It seems the modem is not capable of switching
the IRQs for the port selections, its what they give you and nothing
else.

Now, I want to install the CDROM and from looking at the manual
for the DTC 3150 rev. B SCSI controller It wants to use the same
IRQ as used by other devices (COM1-IRQ4, COM2-IRQ3, LPT2-IRQ5(buss mouse),
and LPT1-IRQ7). In the manual there are two note adjacent the
switch settings for the IRQs. The note indicates that for DOS systems
the controller does not use interrupts. Does this mean that I can install
the card with the factory settings and use it in a Full screen DOS 
Windows window without trouble? Assuming all the correct drivers
are loaded in these windows? Will this device ever work correctly under
OS/2 or will it require fighting the battle with the interupts all
over again?

Anyone have and useful info on this topic? Also, included in the package
was an ATI Stereo FX Sound Card. Is it going to need more interupts also?

Any help will be appreciated!!!!!!!!!!!!

brian
-- 
Brian Shapiro, Systems Support Specialist
Ohio University, Athens, Ohio 45701
(614) 593-1608
shapiro@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu or SHAPIROB@OUACCVMA.BITNET
From: pjs@ariel.ucs.unimelb.EDU.AU (Peter John Swiatkowski)
Newsgroups: alt.cd-rom
Subject: Re: Creative Labs CD-ROM max. capacity
Date: 10 Nov 1992 13:05:01 +1100
Organization: University of Melbourne
NNTP-Posting-Host: ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au

In article <1992Nov8.021512.21433@utagraph.uta.edu> zurawski@cse.uta.edu (John Charles Zurawski) writes:
>I was looking at the Creative Labs Multi-Media Upgrade package today
>and to my disappointment noticed the capacity was 540Mb.  I thought
>that almost all drives were capable of 600-650Mb.  Are most CD-ROM's
>less than 540Mb?  Are discs that are greater than 540Mb unusable?
>Does Creative Labs have plans to release any drives capable of reading
>discs greater than 540Mb?
>
I've been using the Creative Labs multimedia kt for several months now and
have had no problems reading any ISO-9660 disc I have tried. These include
some discs in the 660MB range.

My kit includes the CR-521-C CD-ROM drive which is labeled as a Creative
Technology Pte Ltd unit and which I believe is a Matsushita (Panasonic)
made IDE unit. Certainly the software drivers are from Matsushita.

Peter Swiatkowski
University of Melbourne
Australia
From: ycheung@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu (Yat Lok L. Cheung)
Newsgroups: alt.cd-rom
Subject: Where to get Mac driver for Toshiba 3201B ??
Date: 12 Nov 92 23:09:23 GMT
Organization: University of Hawaii


Subject says it all... I am looking for a driver to mount the 3201B drive
from a Mac.   Where can I get the driver ?? (ftpable ?? or do I have to
buy one ? )  Is there such thing as generic cdrom driver for the Mac ?? I
have plan to SCSI chain a NEC CDROM drive w/ the  3201B ....  will I have
any problem w/ such setup ??

I would appreciate your suggestions !!  Thanks in advance,


<Lawrence>...
ycheung@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu
Newsgroups: alt.cd-rom
From: abe@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Vic Abell)
Subject: Re: MSCDEX parameter description?
Summary: available at cdrom.com
Organization: Purdue University
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 21:02:26 GMT

In article <1992Nov11.194214.17647@infonode.ingr.com>, fordke@infonode.ingr.com (Keith Ford) writes:
> 
> Where can I find a description of the command line arguments
> to MSCDEX.  I purchased the $200 DAK drive and the docs are
> very simplistic.  Would cdrom.com have them?

Get the file pub/mscdex21.zip from cdrom.com.
Newsgroups: alt.cd-rom
From: J.C.Beech@SHU.AC.UK (Julian Beech)
Subject: 200ms CDROM drives
Reply-To: Julian Beech <J.C.Beech@SHU.AC.UK>
Organization: Sheffield Hallam University
Distribution: alt
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 10:10:35 GMT

I've just heard on the grape vine about a new drive from Toshiba due
for release in the UK soon, may already be available else where.
    It has an access speed of 200ms and data rate of approx 300k, I
hear they get this by spinning the disk at x2.5 conventional speed
(wonder if the disk enjoy's the increased stress!!!).  Best bit is
its multi session, don't have any ideas on prices yet.
       If anyone can add to this please keep me informed.

                            Cheers all...

                                        Julian (Joules) Beech
                                     Sheffield Hallam University
From: tron1@tronsbox.xei.com (Kenneth Jamieson)
Subject: Inexpensive CD-ROM drives for UN*X
Followup-To: poster
Organization: Xanadu Enterprises Inc.
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 13:13:10 GMT


Hi folks !!

	I have a Mitsumi (spelling) CD-ROM drive I use a lot under
DOS, the thing cost $170 and works just fine.

	It has it's own interface card, and I was wondering if any
nice person knew of a driver for this drive for the ISC 2.0x 386/ix system.

	Thanks!

-- 
+--[ Xanadu Enterprises Inc. Lingerie, Consulting, RPG's and ANIME ]-+.sign
|  Please send email for detailed product or catalogue information!  |ature
|             Ken Jamieson: uunet!tronsbox.xei.com!tron1             |Virus
|---NONE of the opinions represented here are endorsed by anybody!---|V3.2
Newsgroups: alt.cd-rom
From: fordke@infonode.ingr.com (Keith Ford)
Subject: MSCDEX parameter description?
Organization: Intergraph Corporation, Huntsville, AL.
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 19:42:14 GMT


Where can I find a description of the command line arguments
to MSCDEX.  I purchased the $200 DAK drive and the docs are
very simplistic.  Would cdrom.com have them?
-- 
Keith E. Ford     __
Intergraph Corp  /  \ Micro Magic BBS 1:373/12  The Dragon Server
+1 205 730-8614  \__/ sysop@umagic.fidonet.org  server@ingr.com
fordke@ingr.com  [__] 830-2362 HST/V32bis 9600  "Subject: HELP"
Newsgroups: alt.cd-rom
From: J.C.Beech@SHEFFIELD-HALLAM.AC.UK (Julian Beech)
Subject: Re: Caddyless CD-ROM Drives for the Mac?
Reply-To: Julian Beech <J.C.Beech@SHEFFIELD-HALLAM.AC.UK>
Organization: Sheffield Hallam University
Distribution: alt
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 17:55:20 GMT

I just saw someone mention caddies protect your disk, no disputes on
that one but caddies do introduce a lot more dirt into the drive than
just a disk on its own.  I currently run two drives, one with caddies
and the other without, I will see what problems I encounter.
    A big plus for caddies is you can label them all over and it
don't put your disk out of balance.

                                    Julian (Joules) Beech
                                 Sheffield Hallam University
Newsgroups: alt.cd-rom
From: ARNOLD@MICRODES.MHS.COMPUSERVE.COM
Subject: Re: C Users's Group Library o
Reply-To: ARNOLD@MICRODES.MHS.COMPUSERVE.COM
Organization: FUNET-NGW
Distribution: alt
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 20:01:52 GMT

To: CDROM-L POSTINGS

>I talked to a vendor that sells that Walnut Creek CD-ROMs this weekend,
He >claims that he has had several requests for this disc, and the owners
of Walnut >Creek deny any knowledge of it.  There is a lot of good code in
the CUG library.  I >have gotten it on floppy from them in the past.  I
suspect that it is made by >someone else (other than Walnut Creek).  Does
anyone have any firm information >about this?

Yes.  I had placed an advance order for it several weeks ago, and I just
recieved it yesterday.  I havn't had a chance to review it yet.

- Arnold Jones
arnold@microdes.mhs.compuserve.com
Micro Design International, Inc.
Xref: sparky alt.cd-rom:4372 comp.os.os2.misc:35948 comp.os.os2.apps:8066
From: tanith@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Michael D Kretzer)
Newsgroups: alt.cd-rom,comp.os.os2.misc,comp.os.os2.apps
Subject: Re: OS/2 CD-ROM & Kodak PhotoCD
Date: 10 Nov 1992 01:21:41 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Reply-To: tanith@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.4
Originator: tanith@csd4.csd.uwm.edu

From article <1992Nov9.234759.26633@amd.com>, by ncpmont@angelo.amd.com (Mark Montgomery):
> Has anyone been successful in reading a PhotoCD under OS/2??
> I just had my Toshiba 3301B upgraded by the factory to make it
> capable of multisession PhotoCD and it works fine under DOS &
> Windoze but the cd-rom drivers under OS/2 (at least the cdrom_g
> driver) does not recognize the PhotoCD disks.  The reported error
> is 'disc is not ISO-9660 or High Sierra format'.  Any clues ??

I've had no problems reading PhotoCDs with the Corel OS/2 CD drivers,
however, the 'default' OS/2 drivers seem to not be able to read
PhotoCDs...

By the way, would the guy who posted that mini DOS audio CD player please
upload that binary to ftp-os2.nmsu.edu?  I can't seem to be able to
'upack' what he posted with debug...
Newsgroups: alt.cd-rom
From: gtoal@ibmpcug.co.uk (Graham Toal)
Subject: Re: Any info on reading Sony EB format?
Organization: The IBM PC User Group, UK.
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 01:35:18 GMT

In article <95784@netnews.upenn.edu> graff@chestnut.ling.upenn.edu (David Graff) writes:
>Someone handed me a Sony "Electronic Book" compact disc (it's a
>3.1-inch diameter cdrom delivered in a caddy that looks like a
>3.5-inch macintosh diskette; the caddy can be opened to remove the
>cdrom).  I'm told this particular disc contains Japanese and English
>versions of lots of newspaper articles, and I want to move this data
>onto my Sun's hard-disk.

The short answer is: not at the moment.  A company i help out has just
advertised for a programmer to write software to read these (in effect to
clone the EB firmware as a DOS/Windows program) and they're originally
going to be doing it to a new serial (yech) interface coming out soon;
then there is planned a caddy system that allows the small disks to be
read in ordinary players. So once you can physically read them you
probably can do what you want, afer you've decoded the very strictly
laid-out data. Which without the help of proprietary sony information
which you have to sign an NDA for will be difficult.  (But at least
unlike Kodak they're relying on trade secret and not patent, so
it won't be impossible)

G
-- 
Newsgroups: alt.cd-rom