HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rhaar@albert.cs.gmr.com (Bob Haar)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: First Aid Liability
Date: 17 Dec 92 19:28:14 GMT
Reply-To: rhaar@albert.cs.gmr.com
Organization: G.M. Research Laboratories

In article 6CB@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu, sdfinuca@cayley.uwaterloo.ca (Sean Finucane) writes:
|>I was planning to take standard St. John's First Aid and also CPR next
|>year and was wondering, as the Heading says, about liability.
|>


I have no information about the situation in Canada. But I just
completed the American Red Cross Standard First AId and CPR
classes, and this was discuss with regard to the U.S.

The legal specifics vary from state to state, but *most* states
have similar (so called) Good Samaritan laws. We were told that
the laws in Michigan protect someone who has been trained in
First Aid from liability resulting from giving assistance.
But there are some important caveats:

	- The First Aid or CPR certificate must be current.
	 (Standard First Aid is good for 3 years, CPR for one).

	- You must be acting within the limits of your training.
	  For example, first aid training does not include
	  giving injections, so that would not be protected.

	- You must get permission from the victim if possible.
	  If the victim is unconscious or a minor, try to
	  get permission from a family member who is around.
	  If none of these are possible, then permission is
	  assumed.

This does not protect you from being sued, just from financial
liability that might result from a suit. You may have to
hire and pay for a lawyer to defend you. 

Note that I am not a lawyer and that this should not be considered
legal advice - just a point of information. (isn't it sick that
we have to say such things.) If you are really concerned, you
should discuss it with your lawyer. And you might want to 
investigate special insurance coverage.


---
  	Robert Haar               InterNet : rhaar@gmr.com 
	Computer Science Dept., G.M. Research Laboratories
DISCLAIMER: Unless indicated otherwise, everything in this note is
personal opinion, not an official statement of General Motors Corp.


Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: watson@pioneer.arc.nasa.gov (John S. Watson - FSC)
Subject: Re: HOLLOW POINTS in the backcountry
Organization: NASA Ames Res. Ctr. Mtn Vw CA 94035
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 19:11:05 GMT

In article <1992Dec18.181655.22197@dsd.es.com> (Brent "Woody" Moss) writes:
> Any suggestions on the type of animal that would put up a good chase? 
> I think this would make the "sport" of the hunt quite exhilerating!

I've always thought hunters themselves would be the best type of
animal to hunt.  What could be more exhilerating knowing that
the animal you are hunting may shoot back!  Some park or island
should be setup somewhere hunters could legally hunt each other
(wasn't there a short story similar to this? "The Most Dangerous Game"
or something like that).

Of course, anything you kill, you've got to eat. :-)

Happy Holidays!

John S. Watson               watson@ames.arc.nasa.gov
#include <stddsclm.h> 

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: susswein@anrchy.cxo.dec.com (Steve Susswein)
Subject: Re: Invitation from Rockport
Keywords: Rockport, Kilamanjaro
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation, Colorado Springs, Co
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 17:27:24 GMT


Can someone who got the invitation tell me what the criteria for
invitation are, and whether there's an address or phone number to
contact to try and wrangle an invite?

I've got a couple of friends who are ultra-runners (100 mile trail runs
with 20,000 feet of elevation gain in 24 hours) who would love to get to
do this.

Thanks,

Steve

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: jreece@sousa.intel.com (John Reece)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Invitation from Rockport
Keywords: Rockport, Kilamanjaro
Date: 18 Dec 92 00:35:40 GMT
Reply-To: jreece@sousa.intel.com
Organization: Intel - Information Technologies

In article <1992Dec16.050055.28209@emr1.emr.ca>, jagrant@emr1.emr.ca (John Grant) writes:
> In article <1992Dec15.201334.20390@oakhill.sps.mot.com> mack@oakhill.sps.mot.com (Gregg Mack ( Sun )) writes:

> >>It appears that they will be selecting candidates from a pool of
> >>respondees based on fitness, interviews, experience.

And photogenicity.

> 	One day! - that can't be right! 
> 	It's about 5500 metres vertical from
> 	the gate to the top (Uhuru Peak). 

Perhaps they're planning on a one-way trip: i.e., a helicopter takes them
back once they get to the summit.  Sort of like some of the recent 
polar expeditions.

Incidentally, I've heard tidbits about 2 upcoming Walkathon-type treks 
to raise money for charity or attract attention to some disease.  One is 
overland to the South Pole and the other is to Everest.  Sheesh.  



-- 
John Reece			"This lifeboat is full"	
Not an Intel spokesman
From: padams@cvbnet.prime.com (cvbnet)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Scotch-Guard as Water Repellent?
Date: 17 Dec 92 23:51:43 GMT

From article <3020026@hplvec.LVLD.HP.COM>, by sylvia@hplvec.LVLD.HP.COM (Sylvia Budak):
> 
>   
>    You are right Bill, it does depend on what type of hiking one does.
> I wish I could get away with putting snow seal on just once a year.  I have to 
> put it on fresh for every backpacking trip I take.  I guess I'm a bit rough on 
> boots (a lot of boulder-hopping, scree-skiing and bush-whacking.) 
> Unfortunately the boots I have now get wet even with a new coat of snow-seal.
> I'm going to buy a new pair for next summer.


  I've found that biwell outlasts snowseal for me. with snowseal I would
have to reapply either every backpack or every other backpack. with
biwell I can get 5 or 6 backpacks between applications.

                                        -paul
From: martini@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (ok)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Emergency food
Date: 12 Dec 92 08:02:25 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX

re: Purina Monkey Chow:
   years ago, driving down a hill to a stop sign near our university, my 
mother and I spied an empty bag of Purina Rat Chow.. to this day, I
occaisionally get images of a little rat, doing the chow-chow-chow dance..
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: jahn@guinness.Idbsu.EDU (Greg Jahn)
Subject: GPS, PC or non-PC?
Reply-To: jahn@guinness.idbsu.edu
Organization: BSU - Data Center
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 22:20:18 GMT

Hey, I just came across an article in the Samhain 1992 edition
of the Earth First! Journal that I thought could liven up the
b.c. discussions beyond the issue of waterproofing tent bottoms.

According to the article, on May 10th of this year two guys broke
into the headquarters of Rockwell International and one of the guys
managed to start 'dismantling' a satellite with an axe ... one of two
located there, both of which were supposedly among the last few
which are needed to make GPS and Navstar complete.  Damage estimates
are said to approach $3 million.

To quote: "Navstar is a targeting system.  Receivers are attached to
cruise missiles, tanks, and Jeeps.  They help guide first-strike
missiles to their targets, and infantry across unfamiliar terrain."

The article quotes a former Trident missile engineer as saying -
"Navstar takes the guess out of warfighting."

Until this article it had never clearly occured to me how inter-
related the use of GPS for backcountry orienting and military
use for counterinsurgency operations were ... it's the same stuff,
except that the military applications have access to more refined
locating abilities.  There are two things that I found interesting
about this article.  One, is that I had not heard about these guys
destroying a satellite ... it seems like it would have been 
news-worthy.  Second, ... it caused me to ponder whether this type
of capability is a good thing.  I've acquired this picture of how
different hanging out in the middle of nowhere is now ... 'they'
can look at you with satellites, then a bunch of guys can be
directed to your exact location .... no problem.  

Of course, and for the record, I'm certainly not advocating 
running around axing satellites, but it does in a strange way
link issues of using technology for matters of potential safety and 
convenience in the outdoors with nuclear first-strike capability.
It's a strange strange world we humans have created.  

So, Eugene, care to offer some introspective ethical ruminations
on this?  A good thing?  

Also, note that I don't know hardly anything about this stuff,
as a matter of fact, my only sources are the above-referenced 
article and ... this newsgroup, which, in it's own way is scary ...
oh, ... have a nice day.
       
--
Greg Jahn Boise State Univ.| "Spoils of war are spoils of war,
/ jahn@guinness.idbsu.edu /|  says junk man, owner of the junk. 
/ dosjahn@idbsu.bitnet    /|  Grafitti man's got something to
/ (208)385-3891.thephone  /|  say. "   - John Trudell

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: (Brent "Woody" Moss)
Subject:   HOLLOW POINTS in the backcountry
Organization: Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp., Salt Lake City, UT
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 18:16:55 GMT



I wonder what would happen if I took some poison of some sort
and put it in the hollow point of a bullet and then sealed the 
end with wax. That way if I hit some small animal non leathaly, say 
in the leg, It would probably die eventually. My tracking skills
would then be honed as a result of the search.   I was thinking
of trying this idea out the next time I'm in the backcountry.
Does anyone know of a natural poison from a plant that I could
use? I wouldn't want to be using some environmental hazard. I
killed an elk last week; I was thinking of using some of it's
tallow for the wax, rather than a petroleum based product.
Any suggestions on the type of animal that would put up a good
chase? I think this would make the "sport" of the hunt quite
exhilerating!


Your ideas would be greatly appreciated.


             Your Furry Friend!,

		MR. WOODY






































 

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: vaisey@cs.sfu.ca (Jacques Vaisey)
Subject: XC SKI bindings -  recommendations wanted
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C. Canada
Distribution: rec.backcountry
Date: 18 Dec 92 09:36:31

Hi all.

I am about to purchase a new set of XC skis and I was wondering if someone
could give me some advise on bindings. In the past I have used "nordic
norm" (3 point) bindings on regualr touring skis; however, I would like to
get into some (novice) backcountry skiing and I want bindings that give a more
control (I'm also planning to get skis with metal edges).
-- 
Jacques Vaisey              |     email -> vaisey@cs.sfu.ca
School of Eng. Science      |     phone -> (604) 291-3818
Simon Fraser Univ.          |       fax -> (604) 291-4951
Burnaby, British Columbia
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: jojo@leland.Stanford.EDU (Joanne Spetz)
Subject: Re: How to re-waterproof tent floors?
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 92 21:31:58 GMT

garth@leland.Stanford.EDU (Douglas Garth Jensen) writes:

> Does anyone know of a way to re-waterproof a tent floor?

Use a groundcloth, and a light layer of ScotchGuard on the outside and
inside of the tent floor.  Previous threads on r.b. have discussed the
merits of groundcloths inside versus outside the tent.  Inside means
your tent floor gets trashed, but the floor you actually deal with (the
ground cloth) stays dry.  Outside means you aren't screwing with plastic
inside the tent, but you might get a swamp if the cloth isn't laid well.

You might want to go to The North Face on University Ave in Palo Alto and
ask them what they think.

Joanne


-- 
Joanne Spetz				Department of Economics
jojo@leland.stanford.edu		Stanford University

"Red-haired women buck like goats."  --James Joyce in _Ulysses_
From: kklenk@neumannhelios.nd.edu (kevin klenk)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Vapor Barriers (Was: Scotch-Guard as Water Repellent?)
Date: 12 Dec 92 19:16:57 GMT
Reply-To: kklenk@neumannhelios.nd.edu (kevin klenk)
Organization: Univ. of Notre Dame

In article <3020026@hplvec.LVLD.HP.COM>, sylvia@hplvec.LVLD.HP.COM (Sylvia Budak) writes:

|>    I have heard about using a vapor barrier like Jon suggested.  A potential
|> problem with this method I would think is the sweat from ones own feet 
|> softening the skin might cause blisters to form more easily.  I get cold feet
|> easily and this was suggested to me as a way to keep my feet warmer (keep the
|> moisture from evaporating).  I haven't gone for it though because of the 
|> blister potential.


There seems to be a great deal of confusion on the net about vapor barrier
technology.  Any interested party should read Robert Wood's book, "Pleasure
Packing for the 90's" by Ten Speed Press.

"Mickey Mouse" boots designed for the U.S. Army were designed with vapor
barrier principles in mind.  Most people involved with expeditions involving
severe cold use vapor barrier technology.  Stephenson's Warmlite probably has
the best VB equipment on the market.

I woundn't recommend VB for any weather above freezing, but for most any winter
trips they simply can't be beat.

Kevin
From: greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: First Aid Liability
Date: 18 Dec 1992 19:26:23 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: antizen.ebay.sun.com


>As far as I know, no state requires anyone to give medical attention in a
>volunteer capacity.

As I have been told numerous times but have not verified for myself,
a few states, possibly Montana and Alaska do in fact have laws requiring
someone to stop and help another who has been in an accident.

These laws supposedly are in response to the remoteness of these states
and the fact the you could be hurt on a long stretch of highway and not
see another car for a long period of time

Greg
From: mjw@druhi.ATT.COM (WorfordM)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Cold feet
Summary: use your coat
Date: 16 Dec 92 02:54:25 GMT


put your coat down the bag and wrap your feet in it.

From: arlie@hpsad.sad.hp.com (Arlie Haig)
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 00:53:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Re:Cold feet( Thanks for responses )
Organization: HP Signal Analysis Division - Rohnert Park, CA
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry

I heard one is supposed to sleep naked inside a down bag for
maximum, efficient warmth. *<:)%=0<

Sincerely,
Arlie
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Cold feet
From: moynes_r@qis.dofasco.ca (Richard Moynes)
Date: 17 Dec 92 08:26:04 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Dofasco Inc, Hamilton, Ont. Can.
Nntp-Posting-User: moynes_r

  Try piling your extra clothes (parka etc) on your feet.  This won't work for
long if you toss and turn, but if your mummy bag is like mine, (and your gut is
like mine too :-) then you barely have enough room to breathe let alone move
around.  The headgear suggestion is a good idea too.  I usually wear a
balaclava (full face ski mask) in these situations.  Of course I get razzed by
my camping buddy, but I think that's just because he never remembers to buy
one himself when he gets back to civilisation.  And in the morning, you get to
see who ends up with the worst case of "toque-head" :-).

-- 

Richard Moynes                             Not speaking for
moynes_r@qis.dofasco.ca                    Dofasco Inc., Hamilton, Ont.

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: reimer@uinpla.npl.uiuc.edu (Paul E. Reimer)
Subject: Re: First Aid Liability
Reply-To: reimer@uinpla.npl.uiuc.edu (Paul E. Reimer)
Organization: Nuclear Physics Laboratory, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 12:42:27 GMT

>When I was young (:-) I had both of these as well as Life-Guarding 
>qualifications (which only got used twice, thank God) and I was told
>that liability wasn't an issue at my level.  A friend, however, just
>suggested that even with just standard first aid, if you see a 
>"situation" and do not assist, or if you do assist and either make a mistake
>or just can't do anything, you can be sued or charged or other nasty things.
>(She took a similar course a couple of years back)

When I took the American Red Cross CPR course last year, we were told
that we were in no way obligated by the law to get involved in giving
Frist Aid or CPR if we were at an accident sceen.  They also said that
most places have good samaritan laws that protect you.  This was in
Illinois.  They also mentioned that some occupations may put you at
liability if you do not offer first aid, such as a fireman, or nurse,
etc, but the average citizen was pretty safe.  Of course, someone can
always find a lawyer and try to sue you, which is a pain, even if the
case does get thrown out of court.

Paul

PS don't sue me for this advice.  It is only as good as my memory, which
is faulty.
From: wmccall@galaxy.gov.bc.ca
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Cold feet
Date: 16 Dec 92 11:04:52 -0800
Organization: BC Systems Corporation

In article <1992Dec14.170824.795@hls.com>, ravi@hls.com writes:
> Hi,
> 	This might sound silly but how do you keep your feet warm inside
> a sleeping bag ? I went camping to Sequioa during Thanksgiving with a 
> 10-15F mummy bag. The temperature was about 20F in the night.I was very
> comfortable inside except for the feet( inspite of having my socks on)
> which were cold throughout. Except for a little breathing space at the 
> top I was well covered up. Does anyone have any suggestions or comments ?
> 
I find that my feet stay much warmer if I don't wear any socks.  They are
cold at first, but then they warm up quickly and stay warmer all night.

Warren McCall
Victoria, BC, Canada
From: hklrs@usho94.hou281.chevron.com (Kevin Larson)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Stuff Sacks or No Fit Like a Tight Fit
Date: 16 Dec 92 21:52:49 GMT
Organization: Chevron

In article <1992Dec16.201144.7826@ra.msstate.edu> dnewcomb@whale.st.usm.edu (Donald R. Newcomb) writes:
>
>Is this the right fit for a stuff sack? If the bag gets damp will it
>take more room to stuff. Are there any secret tricks to get a down
>bag to pack an inch or two farther down? Thanks,
>-- 
   I use a 'compression' stuff sack. It starts out plenty big
   to cram a down bag into it. Then you pull the drawstring around
    the opening. Then there are four compression straps around
    it which make it *really* easy to compress your bag.
    ( Sitting on it as you tighten the straps helps :-)
   My compressed 5 deg down bag takes up between 1/2 and 2/3 the
   space at the bottom of my pack ( Gregory Rock Creek ).
   These sacks are not too expensive and I believe would be worth
   it if they were. I know Lowe makes one and mine is from REI
     ( which has sold a couple different generations ).

-- 
KevinLarson( void ) { while( @chevron ) 
                     {  org  ( CPTC/IT/WorksystemsSupport ); 
                        email( hklrs@usho94.hou281.chevron.com );
                        voice( 713.596.2563 ); } }
From: hall@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Hal F Lillywhite)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: First Aid Liability
Date: 18 Dec 92 14:48:16 GMT
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or.

In article <1992Dec18.131457.22726@brtph560.bnr.ca> jbl@mesaadm.cre.nt.com (JB) writes:
>In article <10985@vice.ICO.TEK.COM> Hal F Lillywhite,
>hall@vice.ICO.TEK.COM writes:
>>Another aspect is your obligation to help someone.  As far as I
>>know, no state requires anyone to give medical attention in a
>>volunteer capacity.  You can walk away and forget it if you want to.

>Not quite.  I am also a US citizen and Red Cross trained and thank God
>not a lawyer.  We were warned that although obscure, there was the
>following possibility:  If you are currently certified and neglect to
>give aid where no other aid is available, you can be liable.  In other
>words, if you pass an accident where no other help is on the scene, you
>neglect to render aid, and it can be proved that you saw the situation
>and failed to help, you are liable.

It is possible that some jurisdictions have such laws (I don't know
what state you are in).  In Oregon you must provide some help
(regardless of your first aid training) but that help need not be in
the form of medical treatment.  However this only applies to the
first person on the scene.  If somebody is already there you are
free to ignore the situation.  If in doubt consult a lawyer in your
own area.

As a practical matter, most anybody motivated enough to take a first
aid course is probably willing to help others who are injured.
Otherwise they wouldn't spend the time in the class.  The problem
comes when a trained first aider is faced with a real situation.
There is a big difference between the classroom practice and a
non-staged accident with real people hurt, screaming and bleeding
all over the place.  It can be difficult to control your emotions
and apply your knowledge.  It will be tempting to throw up your
hands and walk away since you are not sure you can handle this
problem.  This is one reason for such things as good samaritan 
laws, most first aiders don't do as well on a real scene as they 
do in class.  If the law did not recognize this it would put them 
at such a legal risk that nobody could afford to become a first 
aider.
From: jwas_ss@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Jason Wasson)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Appalachin Trail
Date: 16 Dec 92 02:41:26 GMT
Organization: University of Rochester - Rochester, New York

In <1992Dec11.174417.26084@news2.cis.umn.edu> roge0028@student.tc.umn.edu writes:


>	I am looking at taking a trip next summer out east
>and thru-hiking the Appalachin Trail.  What I am looking for
>is some correspondance with people who have taken extended
>trips (1 month or more) and people who have hiked the trail
>itself-no matter how long of a trip- And, if I may be so
>fortunate to come in comtact with someone who has thru-hiked 
>the trail--well I sure won't complain.

>Thanks in advance...
>--Chris

I too, am interested in Hiking the trail this summer and would like some
info.  I was planning on taking a bus to the trail from Rochester, NY. Does
anyone know off hand if there are any buses that go right to the trail or
pretty close to it or towns that are close to the trail?


						Thanks,
						Jason
					jwas_ss@uhura.cc.rochester.edu
-- 
Wouldn't it be fun to go across North America on a steel horse?
and to sleep under the stars each night--
to ride into the Sun each morning,
all on a whim, a desire met with the passion of life.
From: hall@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Hal F Lillywhite)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: [l/m 9/2/92] Snake bite: Distilled Wisdom
Date: 15 Dec 92 14:57:38 GMT
Organization: Tektronix Inc., Beaverton, Or.

In article <01010064.l1jgab@titipu.resun.com> ed@titipu.resun.com (Edward Reid) writes:
>greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM writes:
>> 1. The concept of 'constricting bands below and above the bite'
>>     is very vague and misleading. Santa Clara Country EMT protocols
>>     call for a 'venous tourniquet' below and above (this is the same
>>     concept as the constricting band) ...... in order to decrease venous
>>     flow without compromising arterial circulation.

>A TOURNIQUET IS NOT THE SAME AS A CONSTRICTING BAND.

>I know that you are describing something different from a normal tourniquet
>(a "venous" tourniquet).  I start with the above warning nonetheless, because
>of the importance of avoiding misunderstanding which leads to mistreatment,
>circulatory impairment, and amputation.

Right!  I had an email exchange with Greg and if I understand him
right he agrees that "torniquet" is not the best word to use here.
It is important to avoid interfering with blood circulation in
snakebite cases.  As the FAQ emphasizes, be careful in placing
constricting bands (keep them away from swollen areas), be sure they
are not too tight, and watch them after they are in place to be
certain circulation remains adequate and swelling does not move into
the area where the band is.  Similarly, if you use the newer
technique of wrapping the entire area watch it to be sure
circulation does not deteriorate.

To re-emphasize:  All you are trying to do in a snakebite is slow
the flow of lymphatic fluids under the skin.  Do not interfere with
circulation of blood.