From: anne@cco.caltech.edu (Anneliese Lilje)
Subject: Re: THE IMPLICATIONS OF ABORTION ON OUR SOCIETY
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 20:58:01 GMT

In article <1992Apr6.194732.9524@cs.dal.ca> franklin@ug.cs.dal.ca (Steve Franklin) writes:
>In <17610@oasys.dt.navy.mil> bense@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Ronald Bense) writes:
>
>>In talk.abortion, franklin@ug.cs.dal.ca (Steve Franklin) writes:
>>>In <1992Apr4.225950.26567@midway.uchicago.edu> eeb1@ellis.uchicago.edu (e eliza
>>>beth bartley) writes:
>
>>>>In article <1992Apr3.214523.25335@cs.dal.ca>
>>>>franklin@ug.cs.dal.ca (Steve Franklin) writes:
>
>
>>>   Oh, jeeez, I know that. That is my entire point. The emphasis wthin
>>>society is that sex is for pleasure, not reproduction. I am aware of that,
>>>and embarassed by it as well. Although the two should go hand in hand,
>>>it appears that the fetus, a sentient being or not, is the victim.
>
>>Embarassed??? Why? Leads me to wonder if you've ever had sex, or if
>>you are so inhibited by insecurity that you couldn't enjoy it. Have
>>you ever wondered why humans are the only species on earth that copulate
>>when they wish, instead of when nature dictates? Because it is pleasurable.
>
>   I am embarassed not for myself but society. Sex has been lowered
>to an ACT. Not a hinge of a relationship, not the means to a child,

By who? By all? Or some??? What percentage of the people in this 
country see sex as simply an ACT. Hopefull it is NOT a hinge of a 
relationship. It should be fairly important, but caring and
love and friendship need to be first. 

>not even a shred of responsibility. The end result, the child has
>lost priority and is often forgotten. That's what having sex is
>for dude. The fact that it feels good is a bonus... In any case,
>between beer commercials and your post, you have proved my
>point wonderfully. If I don't have sex, I"m insecure. Nice. I'll 
>have you know that abstaining from premarital sex is a conscious
>and difficult decision. It's something I"m proud of, and I'm not going

What's WRONG with abstaining from sex? Nothing. If that is what you want.
But this HARDLY means that you see sex as MORE than an ACT. As a hinge of
a relationship, as a means to a child.

I could just mean you don't WANT to have sex for whatever reason.

>to be offended by your attempt to mock my practices. 
>   You know why sex is "pleasurable" as you so adeptly summarized it?
>Because if it wasn't, our population would be a bit of a problem. However,
>mother nature hasn't really allowed for Trojan condoms and abortions...
>Heck, we humans can't just be content with battling the hell out of other
>species can we? No, we've had to take on our own kind too... Pathetic.

Oh please. Your logic is revolting. Mother nature meant a lot of things
in our life to have a meaning. But mother nature isn't a God so who says
we MUST do what "she" says. Hog wash.

Mother nature also means us to die off once we reach that critical point
of overwhelming resources on this planet. We'll get their soon. Do we
just blindly head for this or can we perhaps see sex as something
other than "making a child"?

>And I'm going to try not to be rude, but don't you EVER treat abstinence
>as an insult again. Lemme guess - you obviously didn't wait till marriage
>for sex, but do you wait till Christmas to open your presents? There's

I don't know about him...but sometimes I don't wait for Christmas...and 
guess what...it doesn't make the gift any less valuable. Is a gift less
valuable to you if opened BEFORE Christmas.
Loosen up.

>a time and a place for everything, and promiscuity is sure presenting
>us with a hell of a problem now isn't it?

Do you believe that having sex == Promiscuity? 

>   Incedentally, I don't think there is a shred of insecurity in me.

Gee you must not be human. Every human has insecurities.

anne