From: jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala)
Subject: FDA
Reply-To: jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 00:23:48 GMT

Newsgroups: sci.med,talk.politics.drugs,pnw.general
From: keithl@klic.rain.com (Keith Lofstrom)
Subject: Re: FDA still at large  (long)
Keywords: FDA, unconstitutional illegal action,single-issue blindness
Organization: Keith Lofstrom Integrated Circuits
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 18:54:12 GMT

In article <1992Jul23.164209.16428@intelhf.hf.intel.com> hutch@hutch (Stephen Hutchison) writes:
>A good friend of mine just came back from Lost Angeles.  Her mother has been
>diagnosed with cancer, metastasized throughout her entire body.  She will live
>for six months at the outside.  This woman avoided AMA doctors for years
>because
>she (like many others) was taken in by the promise-them-anything conmen of the
>alternative "health" movements.  She's been on every flipping fad diet that
>exists.  Usually at great expense and large profit to the fad diet creator.
>
>Since the cancer is so advanced, the chemotherapists did not object to her
>decision not to do the chemo - she's too weak, already, and there is less than
>a 30% chance that it would cause any kind of remission.  They aren't doing
>rad therapy either, for similar reasons - all it would do is extend her pain.
>
>Hutch

Hutch, it pains me greatly that so many people do so many stupid things.  Why,
if I examined your life carefully, I could probably point out dozens of things
*you* do that *I* consider stupid.  Now imagine me and a few dozen thugs
come over to your place and forcibly prevent you from doing anything I
consider stupid - and forcibly prevent you from calling for help - for your
own good, of course!  After a week of that, you would be ready to kill. 

You, and I, and Joe Lunchpail down the street, are all doing what we consider
the smartest thing for ourselves and others.  Since we are all different 
people, we each have different - and sometimes contradictory - ideas of what
is smart, and what is stupid.  Now, some fraction of us have unconventional
ideas - and some fraction of those ideas are better than yours or mine.  Not
many, but some - and those few ideas are the ones that save the world.  Those
new ideas are incredibly costly - they must be winnowed from lots of bad ideas
that cost the lives of thousands of fools.  But the good ideas are worth
those lost lives.

Linus Pauling has been fighting most of the medical establishment, and pushing
the idea of high doses of vitamin C as a treatment for cancer, and as an aid
to general health.  Dr. Steve Harris, a buddy of mine working in Roy Walford's
lab in UCLA, has been experimenting with longevity studies in rats at UCLA,
testing the effects of various supplements (as well as caloric restriction).
You know what?  Certain vitamins, taken far in excess of the RDA, can help
you live longer.  The FDA response?  They are talking about making vitamins
require a prescription.

Why is the FDA doing this?  They aren't the monsters that certain of my
libertarian friends would have you believe.  The problem is that they are no
more omniscient than you or I, and they have no way of telling what will
be eventually learned about these things.  Since their charter is to prevent
anything unconventional that might be harmful, they go after things that are
unconventional - because they have no way of determining what will be harmful
in the long run.

Imagine you have two clinics, Unconventional A and Unconventional B.  Clinic
A is run by smooth talking weasles, who charm rich clients into spending
millions of dollars for worthless treatments.  Clinic A can afford expensive
lawyers and big political donations.  Meanwhile, Clinic B is run by a few
overworked, harried, and verbally inept non-scientists, and the 10 year
cure rate for it's patients is 20% higher than those patients would have
at an AMA hospital, because of some mechanism you and I and current medical
science can only guess at.  Now, who do you think the FDA will shut down?

Now, imagine that it was 1880, with no restrictions on medical practice, and
the folks at clinic A wanted the whole pie to themselves.  Would the clinic
B fellows be able to resist the efforts of the clinic A fellows to establish
a state licensed monopoly?  Well, in 1880, the clinic A guys were called
Allopaths, and they did just that to their colleagues the Naturopaths,
Homeopaths, Chiropractics, midwives, folk doctors, and others, driving those
kinds of doctoring into the corners and denying them the benefits of 
scientific improvement.  It would be a little like the government forcing us
all to use DOS;  after 20 years of that, most of the other OS's would be in
pretty sad shape.
 
I had a friend named Eric Knapp.  He got a general science degree from the
University of Oregon, and worked as a process engineer for AMD - no dummy,
right?  Well the AMA doctors gave the cancer in his leg enough radiation 
to spread it, but not to kill it (when they probably should have amputated).
He was in chemo for a while, but it wasn't working, was painful, and cost a
lot of money.  Then he went to the quacks - not the "cheap" ones in Mexico,
but the expensive ones in New York - whose treatments were just as expensive,
and just as worthless at the AMA approved ones, but hurt less, and let the
patient participate.  Eric still died.  But he died at home, and he died a
little happier than most people who die in the AMA hospitals.  I wish he
hadn't spent the money on the quacks, but am glad he didn't spend it on
AMA doctors instead.  In some cases they help, but not in this one.

Hutch, I am sorry for your friend's mother.  I am also sorry that your friend,
and you, were given such pitiful rhetorical training in school that you two
couldn't talk your friend's mother out of foolishenss.  She went to Mexico,
which is not part of the FDA's jurisdiction, and she would have gone to Pluto
if she wanted to badly enough.  The FDA can't separate people from quacks.
All they can do is make the process of going to quacks more costly and
painful.  Do you really think the world needs more cost and pain?

SHE IS GOING TO DIE.  *YOU* are going to DIE.  *I* am going to DIE.  The AMA 
cannot prevent that.  The FDA cannot prevent that.  Whether they help or
hurt is a judgement call, as there is ALWAYS data on both sides.  If the
populace has become so irresponsible that they can't properly make those 
judgement calls any more, nothing is solved by taking a fraction of them and
giving them decision making powers over the rest.  Instead, you find out
why the education process is turning out such irresponsible people, and slowly,
painfully, and wisely remediate that.

Most laws are attempted shortcuts by people too lazy to use their freedom of
speech to educate their neighbors, or too stupid to learn from them.  If the
20th century provides any lesson to future generations, it will be that you
can't improve the world through legislation, but that you can damage it.
Freedom inspires martyrdom on the the part of those who love it.  You may
not understand why others are willing to take arms and die if necessary to
preserve the freedom to do things you dislike, but please remember that we
are out there, and we can be pushed too far.
-- 
Keith Lofstrom         keithl@klic.rain.com       Voice (503)-520-1993
KLIC --- Keith Lofstrom Integrated Circuits --- "Your Ideas in Silicon"
Design Contracting in Bipolar and CMOS - Analog, Digital, and Power ICs
From: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Newsgroups: sci.med,talk.politics.drugs
Subject: Re: FDA still at large  (long)
Keywords: FDA, unconstitutional illegal action,single-issue blindness
Date: 27 Jul 92 15:48:22 GMT
Followup-To: sci.med
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department


In article <1992Jul26.185412.24583@klic.rain.com> keithl@klic.rain.com (Keith Lofstrom) writes:
>In article <1992Jul23.164209.16428@intelhf.hf.intel.com> hutch@hutch (Stephen Hutchison) writes:

			..........................

>Hutch, it pains me greatly that so many people do so many stupid things.  Why,
>if I examined your life carefully, I could probably point out dozens of things
>*you* do that *I* consider stupid.  Now imagine me and a few dozen thugs
>come over to your place and forcibly prevent you from doing anything I
>consider stupid - and forcibly prevent you from calling for help - for your
>own good, of course!  After a week of that, you would be ready to kill. 

			....................

>                Certain vitamins, taken far in excess of the RDA, can help
>you live longer.  The FDA response?  They are talking about making vitamins
>require a prescription.

>Why is the FDA doing this?  They aren't the monsters that certain of my
>libertarian friends would have you believe.  The problem is that they are no
>more omniscient than you or I, and they have no way of telling what will
>be eventually learned about these things.  Since their charter is to prevent
>anything unconventional that might be harmful, they go after things that are
>unconventional - because they have no way of determining what will be harmful
>in the long run.

This is NOT the charter of the FDA.  They have even admitted that much to
Congress and the public.  They are quite aware that there is no such thing
as safe and effective.  But they have the attitude, which should disqualify
them from being in any position of authority, that they must protect us
from themselves.  It is THIS which makes them monsters.

They have also publicly stated that the people cannot understand the
information upon which to make decisions.  Now if a person cannot handle
decisions primarily affecting himself/herself, I do not see how such a
person can intelligently decide upon those who will govern.  The very
idea of keeping information from people should, IMHO, make the person
an arch-criminal.  This applies to everyone; manufacturers, distributors,
teachers, salesmen, teachers, and also MDs and, except for military
secrets, government minions.
-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!pop.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
From: lpb@STRATUS.SWDC.STRATUS.COM
Newsgroups: talk.politics.drugs
Subject: The FDA At Large and Illegal
Date: 7 Aug 92 18:27:39 GMT

I think perhaps many of us are not aware of the extent to which teh FDA is
pursuing the implementation of a bill that may make all vitamins, minerals,
herbs, and other nitrinional supplements available by prescription only.

The following file describes only 1 of many raids the FDA has initiated against
holistic health providers and the health food industry as a whole. What's that
saying in poker ... read 'em and weep. This is for real.  I urge any legal
entity on this net to inform your peers, form a political wedge, and fight
this atrocity.

Samurai_Writer



----- Begin Included Message -----
Article 3611 of sci.med.aids:
From: bigoldberg@igc.org (Billi Goldberg)
Newsgroups: sci.med.aids
Subject: FDA in Action
Date: 11 May 92 14:50:48 GMT
Organization: UCLA, Computer Science Department

This is from a post by the sysop on the Seattle AIDS Info BBS.

The BBS number is 1-206-323-4420.

All I know is what I read in the following post.  It is quite 
interesting expecially in light of the recent thread on governmental 
backlash on AIDS.

Billi Goldberg

************************************************************************

Msg#:  933 *OPEN DISCUSSIONS*  05-09-92 22:00:40 (Read 16 Times)  
Subj: FROM 28 BARBARY LANE - ACTION NEEDED         
 
         THIS IS IMPORTANT! EVERYONE that has an interest in alternative 
therapies needs to become aware of what has gone on here in our area! On 
May 6th, 1992  the FDA staged a RAID on the Tahoma Clinic in Kent 
Washington. They were  accompanied by state and federal enforcement 
agents who actually BROKE DOWN the  doors and came in with weapons drawn 
in flak jackets and riot gear. They held  the staff at GUNPOINT. They 
ordered patients to stand against the wall and  detained staffers and 
physicians for most of the day while they confiscated  injectable 
VITAMINS and MINERALS. The Tahoma Clinic is run by Jonathan Wright,  MD 
and several Naturopathic Physicians. Patients come from across the 
country  to be seen at the Clinic. Dr. Wright was the medical editor of 
Prevention  magazine for 9 years and is internationally known for his 
expertise in   nutrition. 

         The FDA acted as if they were busting a crack house rather than 
a  professional clinic with an international reputation. The tactics 
they used to  intimidate everyone there are not an isolated incident but 
part of a pattern  since Dr. Kessler has taken over as head of the FDA. 
Similar actions were taken  against three other manufacturers of 
supplements in the last year (Allergy  Research, Thorne Research and 
Highland Labs). In every single instance agents   broke down doors with 
shotguns pointed at the heads of employees who, by the  way, have never 
offered ANY resistance to federal agents at any time during FDA  
inspections. The level of force used is reprehensible.

         The products that the FDA was after included injectable B 
vitamin complex,  other injectable vitamins and minerals and various 
business and patient MEDICAL  records. Some of you here on the BBS that 
I have seen on a professional basis  know that without Dr. Wright many 
of the things that we use to aggressively  treat HIV on a comprehensive 
holistic basis would not be available if it  weren't for Dr. Wright 
taking a chance and sticking his own neck out because he  cares about 
getting PWA's and HIV+ people the BEST care and most importantly  
maintaining their FREEDOM to choose the KIND OF MEDICAL CARE that they 
want.  Without people like Dr. Wright you will have only one choice... 
drugs like AZT  and DDI. Even if you do not seek out alternative care 
PLEASE help us maintain  the right to CHOOSE for those that AZT and DDI 
are NOT the answer. If this is   allowed to stand it will set a 
dangerous precedent.

          RIGHT NOW the FDA is acting upon legislation that will take 
effect in May  1993 (unless we stop this NOW) that will effectively 
REMOVE 50-70% of the food  and nutritional supplements from health food 
stores. They are doing this  through a new law called the Nutrition 
Labeling and Education Act (NLEA). NLEA  will be used to limit the 
potency of supplements to no greater than food items.  That is... you 
may not be able to buy Vit C in a tablet that is any stronger  than what 
is in an orange... or a Vit A supplement that is any stronger than  what 
is contained in one carrot etc etc. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOU who relies 
on  Vit C, NAC or any other supplement to treat yourself for HIV or 
simply to  maintain health MUST let you voice be heard NOW.     Write 
and call your senators, representatives, the White House etc. Let them  
know you will NOT stand for their police state tactics and enforcement 
that  will take away your right to choose vitamin and mineral 
supplements and your  RIGHT to visit a health food store or holistic 
clinic.

         To date, although a search warrant was issued listing items to 
be  confiscated, the FDA, US Attorney's Office and the Judge in this 
case have  REFUSED to even tell anyone what federal law they believe was 
violated. They  simply will NOT tell US! Is this America ? Call Kent 
Pullan - King Co  Councilman on the Law and Justice Committee. DEMAND to 
know why the King County  Police held shotguns at the heads of patients, 
staff and physicians. 

PHONE  296-1009         CALL Susan Barnes, Asst. US Attorney. Demand to 
know WHAT federal law she  believes was violated and express your 
outrage at the handling of this case  with gestapo nazi like tactics. 

PHONE 553-4149         CALL Roger Lowell, Seattle area director of the 
FDA and express your  outrage at the handling of this and that he would 
dare to limit your choice of  health care and your right to take food 
supplements that in ten years have  never resulted in a single death or 
injury (1982-1992 from info from Jrnl or  Emergency Medicine based on 
info from Poison Control Centers). Mr Lowell is at   486-8788

         Do the Same for Gary Dykstra, Mr. Lowell's boss in Washington 
DC. He is  the Deputy Commis. of the FDA at 301-443-1594. Give him hell! 
Judge John  Weinberg is the judge that signed the search warrant and can 
issue the order to  unseal it. Tell him how you feel. his PHONE is 553-
5774

        LASTLY - the WHITE HOUSE has set up a DEDICATED FAX LINE (FAX 
ONLY!)  SPECIFICALLY FOR THIS CASE. PLEASE FAX FAX FAX to George Bush 
and Sam Skinner  his Chief of Staff and tell them how you feel about 
this issue. Tell them you  are tired of being forced to take drugs and 
not have the freedom to take  supplements or choose your own physician 
that uses nutrition instead of drugs.  FAX#  202-456-2461.

         AND PLEASE copy this and post it and get the information out. 

                                      -- Sysop   

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