From: ecsd@tfs.com (Eric C. S. Dynamic)
Subject: Re: Etiquette - or lack thereof
Organization: TRW Financial Systems
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 09:26:36 GMT

"Rodney Adams" <RADAMS@BNR.CA> writes:
>|> >commits the one unspoken sin among high-IQ societies:
>I really should have made a :) from the : above.  I do not take all that much
>offense at giving one's scores, unless it is in the form of boasting.

Thanks for the info about SB vs. W.

>|> When we are all naked, we are all equal, because we are all human.
>Are we?  Do the murderers, the rapists, the child molestors have equal claim on 
>being human?  If so, then "being human" is something in which I want no part.

Ah, but - there but for the grace of God go I.
Had I now been so badly cowed by my father, the hurts from both my parents
could have turned me into a rapist, a slaughterer. All the rage was turned
inward, and I have stayed away from people who I thought could not deal with
me. I have had to eat that anger for a long time.
We can put all these people in prison, but that will not cure them.
I suspect that many of these people could be rehabilitated before their
grievances become manifest in those behaviors. And our society - lest I
anticipate you below - could quit producing those people. I saw that I was
perhaps going to get flamed, so I just jumped in with 'F'; I haven't read
the whole letter yet; I will before I reply. But it appears we may be heading
into one of my most favorite polemic topics . . .

>If prejudice it is to despise the evils of some, then so be it, but I do
>not hold such "people" as being equals.  I hate the news, because it usually
>does nothing but reaffirm my views of society.  Call me conservative if you will,
>but I will also claim no ties to the drunkenness, druggedness, and promiscuity
>all too common in my "peers."

"Promiscuous" is a self-defining word. The people who use it believe that it
has meaning. I am inclined to think not.
I have used drugs, and I do still, and I probably always will. Experience
is a great teacher. I have abused myself with them, and I have used them
to good purpose. Much like any other risk-bearing activity.

>In a more general sense, I also disagree with this.  Free from external  
>artificialities, our inner differences should become more apparent.  I am
>who I am, naked or not, and I am an individual, differing in ways from each
>and every one of the five billion human inhabitants of this planet.  I am
>no one's equal, nor do I believe that anyone is truly equal to another.

When you are born you wish to suckle at your mother's breast. And almost all
children - except true-born sociopaths - need love and physical attention,
in varying degrees. Almost all of us - and I'm tired of qualifying everything,
so forgive my asking you to take the qualification for granted - all of us
have egos, and all of us need to learn to relate to each other, and all of
us need to learn to relate to being sexual creatures, regardless our
orientation of lack of one. Our distinctness is vast, but so is what we all
share in common in being human.

>That said, let me complicate matters by asserting that I strongly endeavor
>to avoid separating myself from individuals with whom I come into contact.
>I do what I can to understand the actions and motivations of others and,
>until proven wrong, to believe in the basic decency of these individuals. 
>So while I disapprove and distance myself from society in general, I am
>highly tolerant of most of the individuals with whom I associate.
>
>In keeping with Eric publicly exposing himself, allow me to go further
>(although with a bit more tact).  I am highly self-analytical, intensely
>emotional though not easily offended, self-confident though very dependent
>on the love of one particular individual, highly ethical though I dislike
>laws and regulations.  As to my intellect, I perceive myself as being highly
>intelligent, though only in relative terms.  Judged against what I feel
>"should" be considered intelligent, I find myself lacking, as if my mind
>trudged through some murky mire, obscuring great thoughts though I can sense
>their presence.  As for my feelings about "average" intelligence, the ills 
>of society are ample evidence of its inadequacy.
>
>Do you truly believe, Eric, that we are all equal?  Perhaps it is just a matter
>of semantics, but I would say that you (especially considering the details you
>have given us) and I and all others are not equals.

Hmm. Missed my guess, I'm not getting flamed!
Tactless - well, I know that.

You and I don't sound so very different. The entire larger paragraph
characterizes me as well.

The ills of our society are, I think, caused by the failure to comprehend
in what ways humans are mere animals, and the failure to integrate the
higher and lower aspects of ourselves. So I object to the word "promiscuous",
because it implies some of the values which I think have caused so much
damage to our society (white western, in Particular.) I point my finger
squarely at Judeo-Christianity & Islam, and say these beliefs, as they have
evolved over time, have done more to damage human beings than all the wars
ever seen - besides having contributed to numbers of them. This would be my
polemic, which I won't pursue here now.

Yes - we are all equal in being all the same and all different. My janitor
might well know more about being a splendid human being than I; or how to
raise happy children. We have so many axes along which to make comparisons,
but in the end we are all experiential creatures, and social creatures, and
have specific needs, and well-known ways of behaving when these needs are not
met. I might fear and loathe that fellow over there, but I have to take a
long, long look before I would judge him down as being lesser or other.
I can see myself in almost everyone - failed people, miserable people, hopeful
people, people in denial, joyful people, happy people, corrupt people, people
with integrity. I am all these things, and so, I think, are all of us.

>|>                                                                    Let the
>|> best and brightest and highest and most attained of us lead the way, perhaps,
>|> but they suffer isolation in finding compatible partners. Not fun.
>|>
>|> That's why there's Mensa.

>Just don't generalize too much.  We are not all so maladapted, and some of
>us do happen to defeat the odds in finding that one individual with whom
>we can share ourselves and our lives and find some greater meaning in
>our existence.  It seemed forever in coming, but I did find her, and I 
>did it without Mensa.

Maladapted - I cried recently to think how I could not know what I now know,
without having gone through what I did to get here. & I forgave my life for
what it is and has been. Maladapted, pfui - it's going to put bread on my
table! Maladapted, Ha! We are all maladapted, misfits, crazy wanton children,
full of life & love, and the Universe loves us for what we are. And we it in
return, for the sacred gift of being and awareness.

Umm, at least that's how *I* feel. :)

Oh, I don't mean to imply that without Mensa "we" could not find others for
ourselves - but Mensa *is* a way to do that, too.

-paraphrased from Amarcord? I think - Fellini:

Woman, woman, where's my woman!!
Woman, woman, I wanna Woman!!

(Madonna need apply.)
-ecsd
Organization: Chemical Engineering, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA