HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: keegan@pan.crd.ge.com (James G Keegan Jr)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: THIRD TRIMESTER ABORTIONS
Date: 1 Sep 92 02:26:21 GMT
Reply-To: james g keegan jr <keegan@crd.ge.com>
Organization: T.S.A.K.C.
Disclaimer: i speak for myself only, unless noted otherwise

addressing the chaneyhall thing,
decay@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (dean.kaflowitz) writes:
[...]
-> And he says his home life was not dysfunctional, yet
-> look at what it produced.
-> 
-> He's one sick little boy.  His mommy and daddy
-> better get him some serious psychiatric treatment
-> before his visions of his inheritance get the better
-> of what passes for his patience.  I won't be
-> surprised if I see him on A Current Affair somewhere
-> down the road.

hmmmm. bill overpeck told me earlier today that it was
prejudicial to suggest that someone seek psychiatric
help when i suggested that DODie do so.

i wonder if he'll think the same here.




-- 
----
charter member   ...   T.S.A.K.C.
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: rja@redwood26.cray.com (Russ Anderson)
Subject: Re: THIRD TRIMESTER ABORTIONS
Originator: rja@redwood26
Keywords: From: decay@
Organization: The 1991 World Champion Minnesota Twins!
Date: 1 Sep 92 16:34:05 CDT


In article <nyikos.715301463@milo.math.scarolina.edu>, nyikos@math.scarolina.edu (Peter Nyikos) writes:
> In <Btrrt3.4w5.2@cs.cmu.edu> garvin+@cs.cmu.edu (Susan Garvin) writes:
> 
> About the Becky Bell tragedy:
> 
> >Death certificates are part of the public record, Nyikos.  If you feel
> >a need to pry further into someone's personal tragedy, you can
> >obtain a copy of the death certificate yourself.  You call Willke's
> >argument-with-an-agenda "better documented."   Did it not
> >include the coroner's report and the death certificate?
> 
> It had a lot to say about it, and I will be quoting extensively
> from it, when I get a little time. [BTW O'Keeffe & Jones provided
> no documentation at all.]
> 
>   In the meantime, I leave you
> with this thought: coroners are
> not necessarily up on what deaths due to abortion are like.
> They're awfully rare, or have you forgotten?  Could be this
> was the first alleged case this particular coroner had ever dealt
> with.  
> 
> Also, the autopsy did not say "induced abortion," it said
> "abortion."  Did the coroner say on 60 minutes that in his
> opinion, it was an induced abortion?

On "60 Minutes" the coroner made it clear that it was an
illegal abortion.

-- 
Russ Anderson    |  Disclaimer: Any statements are my own and do not reflect
------------------              upon my employer or anyone else.  (c) 1992
EX-Twins' Jack Morris, 10 innings pitched, 0 runs (World Series MVP!)
From: regard@sdd.hp.com (Adrienne Regard)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: DOES THE NUMBER THIRTEEN RING A BELL?
Date: 30 Aug 1992 20:22:40 -0700
Organization: Hewlett Packard, San Diego Division
NNTP-Posting-Host: hpsdde.sdd.hp.com

In article <nyikos.715040173@milo.math.scarolina.edu> nyikos@math.scarolina.edu (Peter Nyikos) writes:
>>In article <nyikos.714171851@milo.math.scarolina.edu> (Peter Nyikos) writes:
>>>In <1992Aug18.002226.21765@usenet.ins.cwru.edu> (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:

>>>>   Is it possible to enslave a person more than to force a woman,
>>>>against her will, to bear young?
>>>Is there a condition of slavery worse than that of a fetus, [...]
>Don't get hung up on details.  I was being satirical. The original comment
>of Kauffman is one of my pet peeves.  Literally, it would refer to raping
>a woman or forcing her to have sex with someone,
>and continuing with this until she gets pregnant,
> and then forbidding her to use an IUD or morning after pill, 
>and forbidding all forms of abortion at any time.

I don't think so.  Funny thing.

Lots of other women don't think so.  Funny thing.

Maybe you need to examine a few more of those pesky details before you go
off being satirical.

For instance, I don't consider raping a woman to be forcing her to bear young.
I consider it to be rape.

I don't consider forbidding her to use an IUD or pill to be forcing her to
bear young.  I consider it to be forbidding her to use an IUD or pill.

Both of those things kind of happen well removed from the activity of
proscribing abortion, don't they?  Pesky little details.....

>Had Kaufman expressed himself in a rational
>manner, I would have responded in kind.

Why don't you show us?  We can all see how Kaufman posts -- we don't need
your satire.  Why don't you all show us how you can post in your rational
manner?  It would be ... refreshing.

Adrienne Regard
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: gordons@coopsol.com (Gordon Storga)
Subject: Re: Shocking News About Clinton!!!!
Organization: Stay Awake Software
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 92 20:41:31 GMT

<Bto7rt.GsJ@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> jaker@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Jake Rose) said:
>
><l9ni49INNorq@utkcs2.cs.utk.edu> lape@cs.utk.edu (Bryon S. Lape) writes:
>>	Regardless of his stance on abortion, Clinton does not support an
>>American's right to choose.  This is ashame since he claims to be
>>"pro-choice."  Well Gov. Clinton, I want to choose my doctor and where my
>>kids can go to school.  I do not need the government telling me.

Can you provide evidence that Clinton wants to make it illegal for you to
choose your own doctor, or that he wants to make it illegal for you to
send your kids to a private school?

I didn't think so.


Gordon
-- 
The opinions expressed are my own, and not the beliefs or opinions
of whatever company you think I work for.  So there, thhhbbbt!
Message to Kodak:  Freedom for Dan Bredy.
From: smccabe@longfellow.ecn.purdue.edu (Sarah A McCabe)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: Fodder for DOD's .sig (Was: Pro-Choice Challenge)
Date: 3 Sep 92 02:04:51 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network

In article <1992Sep2.191744.26316@advtech.uswest.com> steven@jaynes ( Steve Novak) writes:
>In article <kzwy53m@rpi.edu> cookc@aix.rpi.edu (rocker) writes:
>>chrisl@stpaul.gov (Chris A Lyman) writes:
>>
>>>>Doug Holtsinger
>>
>>>>      "My logic is based on ... a religious perspective which says
>>>> that personhood begins at birth (actually a month after birth if
>>>> we want to be precise)..."
>>>>   -- Gloria Feldt,
>>>>      chief executive, Planned Parenthood of Central and Northern Arizona
>>
>>>>  "I see nothing extreme or reprehensible about this statement."
>>>>    -- garvin+@cs.cmu.edu (Susan Garvin) <BtnDAw.Iwo.2@cs.cmu.edu>
>>>     -- dking@nas.nasa.gov (Dan King)  <Insert header info here>
>>>     -- gjh@virginia.edu (Galen Hekhuis)
>>>     -- chrisl@pwcs.stpaul.gov (Chris A Lyman) <Insert header info here>
>>      -- cookc@rpi.edu (rocker)
>       -- steven@jaynes.uswest.com (Steve Novak)
	-- smccabe@mn.ecn.purdue.edu (Sarah McCabe)
>
>
>>What is it about Judaism that bothers you, Doug?
>
>Yeah!  What Chris said!

Ditto

Sarah McCabe
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: Eric_Gorr@coglab_psych.uoregon.edu (Eric gorr)
Subject: Abortion:  My Views
Organization: University of Oregon Network Services
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 92 22:10:22 GMT

Personally, I do believe that abortion is morally wrong (in most cases, and
no not just in the cases of rapeincestandlifeofthemother) and should not be
preformed.  

But I also believe that that under no circumstances should abortion be made
illegal.  Legislated morality doesn't work.  Even those of you who claim to
be Christians cannot find support for this in the Bible.  

Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: dsh@odin.ece.ncsu.edu (Doug Holtsinger)
Subject: "only 3 doctors ... perform third trimester abortions" is unsupported
Organization: North Carolina State University
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 18:06:04 GMT

In article <1992Aug23.025204.35025@watson.ibm.com> 
margoli@watson.IBM.com writes:

>dsh@odin.ece.ncsu.edu (Doug Holtsinger) writes:

>>> There are only 3 doctors in the United States that perform third
>>> trimester abortions.  They *only* perform them for reasons of serious
>>> health problems.

>> Please provide verifiable proof for this claim.

> I've told you before that I'm not going to do your homework for you,
> Doug.  You'll have to contact 60 Minutes yourself.

I called the number that Dean Kaflowitz posted to the net and 
ordered a transcript of last Sunday's 60 Minutes story on the 
"Lambs of Christ". (It cost me $7.50, BTW).  Here's the relevant 
portion of the transcript:

  "Stahl: The doctor he's talking about is Warren Hern, who runs
   the clinic.  He's been a major target of pro-life groups for
   years because he's one of only three doctors in the country
   who specialize in late-term abortions."

The transcript also mentions a patient of Dr. Hern who obtained 
a second-trimester abortion because she was critically ill,
but the transcript does not mention the reasons for which these
"three doctors" will perform abortions.  

So there are two discrepancies between the claims of Mr. Margolis
and the transcript of the 60 Minutes story:

a) Mr. Margolis claims that only three doctors in the United
   States perform third trimester abortions, but 60 Minutes 
   claims that only three doctors specialize in late-term
   abortions.

b) The transcript does not support the claim of Mr. Margolis
   that these doctors perform abortions only for reasons of 
   serious health problems.
 
The transcript does not mention the source of Stahl's claim
about the "three doctors".  I may write to 60 Minutes to ask 
them for a source.  It doesn't appear that Mr. Margolis is 
willing to track down the source. 



Doug Holtsinger

      "My logic is based on ... a religious perspective which says
 that personhood begins at birth (actually a month after birth if
 we want to be precise)..."
   -- Gloria Feldt,
      chief executive, Planned Parenthood of Central and Northern Arizona

  "I see nothing extreme or reprehensible about this statement."
    -- garvin+@cs.cmu.edu (Susan Garvin) <BtnDAw.Iwo.2@cs.cmu.edu>

Newsgroups: talk.abortion,alt.flame
From: dsholtsi@csl36h.csl.ncsu.edu (Doug Holtsinger)
Subject: Re: without even being asked ....
Reply-To: dsholtsi@csl36h.csl.ncsu.edu (Doug Holtsinger)
Organization: North Carolina State University
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 23:53:17 GMT

In article <BtFpEG.Kzn@rice.edu> 
patrick@is.rice.edu (Patrick L. Humphrey) writes:

> Whether I *do* apologize
> to Chaney is a matter between me and him -- and nothing said by either 
> Kellmeyer or Holtsinger will have any relevance to that.  It's not their
> decision to make, whether they think it is or not.

So what's holding up your apology?  

>Patrick L. Humphrey  

People who have publically expressed their clear and unequivocal
objection to Patrick Humphrey's use of term "fat black ass": 

   Steve Chaney
   Doug Holtsinger
   Scott Roby
   Suzanne Forgach
   Galen Hekhuis
   Will Steeves
   JH Woodyatt
   Peter Nyikos
   Elizabeth Bartley

Newsgroups: talk.abortion,alt.abortion.inequity
From: knapp@spot.Colorado.EDU (David Knapp)
Subject: Re: Proposal for a moderated abortion newsgroup
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1992 21:03:11 GMT

In article <lefty-270892180633@lefty.apple.com> lefty@apple.com (Lefty) writes:
>In article <1992Aug26.170931.13175@ncsu.edu>, dsh@odin.ece.ncsu.edu (Doug
>Holtsinger) wrote:
>> 
>> If we can find a solution to the moderator/volume problems,
>> then I plan on putting out a CVD. 
>
>What'd _that_ be?  A Call for Venereal Disease? 

Call For Discussion, goose. And hopefully, it won't go that far. Moderating
an alt. group is sortof silly anyway (IMO).

How many people out there have 'no opinion' on the issue and would make
a good moderator? I've never met, nor heard, of anyone who didn't have 
an opnion on abortion, one way or the other.

Let's put that idea out of our heads and get on with it. This group is
doing just fine without a moderator anyway.

>
>--
>Lefty (lefty@apple.com)
>C:.M:.C:., D:.O:.D:.


-- 
David Knapp                                      University of Colorado, Boulder
Highly Opinionated, Aging  and                      knapp@spot.colorado.edu
Perpetual Student of Chemistry and Physics.
            Write me for an argument on your favorite subject.
From: mprc@troi.cc.rochester.edu (M. Price)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: People Concerned Until Childbirth
Date: 2 Sep 92 18:57:15 GMT
Organization: University of Rochester - Rochester, New York

In <1992Aug28.213920.23421@ncsu.edu> dsh@odin.ece.ncsu.edu (Doug Holtsinger) writes:

>In article <BtMC8n.B6A.2@cs.cmu.edu> 
>garvin+@cs.cmu.edu (Susan Garvin) writes:
>>
>> There was another exhibition of just how much the protesters outside
>> the clinics here care for children last Saturday.  The young daughter
>> of one of the demonstrators ran in front of a moving car.  She was
>> not seriously injured, luckily, since the car was moving very slowly.
>> Her mother neither called an ambulance nor took the child home, but
>> forced her to stay for another several hours of demonstrating.  (The
>> little girl had scrapes and cuts from the street, and was naturally
>> very upset by the incident.)

>I'm very sorry to hear that Ms. Garvin.  I wish that clinic 
>protesters would leave their children at home, where they 
>will be safe and sound.  I admire your compassion which you 
>displayed towards that little girl.  I also wish that you would 
>display the same compassion towards the children who are going 
>inside the clinic to be killed. 

 There are children being killed in these clinics???? That's awful! Why
don't you call the police?

                                                   MP
From: forgach@noao.edu (Suzanne Forgach)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: THIRD TRIMESTER ABORTIONS
Date: 3 Sep 92 22:28:13 GMT
Organization: National Optical Astronomy Observatories, Tucson, AZ, USA
Originator: forgach@gemini.tuc.noao.edu

From article by mcbeanb@brandonu.ca:
> In article forgach@noao.edu (Suzanne Forgach) writes:
>> From article by mcbeanb@brandonu.ca:
>>>
>>> [story of his chronically hospitalized 3 year old cousin]
>>> 
>>> Kirk is three years old now.  He still hasn't died.  Had his parents
>>> known of this defect beforehand, I am positive they would rather have
>>> aborted him than to put everyone, especially Kirk, through this certain 
>>> hell.
>> 
>> I'll bet you anything that the nurses (not to mention his parents) love him
>> on a daily basis, and he knows it.   For you to second guess the "quality"
>> of his life is nothing less than Gestapo tactics.   
> 
> Suzanne.  Imagine a baby who is born into a world of constant excruciating
> pain, only to be interrupted by mind-numbing doses of powerful pain killers.
> Do you really think that baby is capable of *any* thought whatsoever?
> Capable of knowing *any* feeling but that of pain??

Yes, in fact I really do think so.   In fact, I have read several child care
books that when dealing with the inconsolable screaming of a baby in pain with
colic, parents should not assume that because they can't stop the pain they
can do nothing for the baby.  They say that parents should hold those babies,
and not leave them to cry in their cribs.  Sure the babies are still crying,
but at least they are not crying alone.

And colic is generally over by 3 months of age, Brian.  Surely a 3 year old
comprehends so much more about whether people care about him.


>> For you to suggest that
>> your cousin would have reverted to killing her own baby is the biggest insult
>> you could have possibly slung at her.
> 
> In your opinion.  Did you stop to think that her opinion may differ?

Did you stop to ask her before posting your own supposition to the world?


>> Beware lest somebody come along and second guess the "quality" of _your_
>> lifestyle, Brian, and hence whether _your_ life is "worth living".
> 
> I'll take this as a sign that you don't approve of euthanasia in general.

You are very correct!


> I'm sure that either my fiancee (hopefully my wife by the time I'm
> in the vegetative state) or my son could decide whether or not to 
> "pull my plug".  If they were both gone, then I'd leave my life to 
> chance.

Has anybody asked your young cousin?  Children have a way of clinging to
life.  They seem to think it's worth living despite pain.


Suzanne Forgach
Newsgroups: talk.abortion,misc.legal,talk.politics
From: feustel@netcom.com (David Feustel)
Subject: Re: Should this be covered by anti_stalker laws?
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 92 23:40:12 GMT
Organization: DAFCO: OS/2 Software Support & Consulting

This behavior is certainly the kind of behavior that was intended to
be covered by the RICO laws; however, we have a President who chooses
not to enforce laws against those who uphold his personal beliefs.
-- 
Dave Feustel N9MYI <feustel@netcom.com>
 
Given Civil Seizure, from the DEA's point of view, winning the War on
Drugs would be killing the Goose that lays golden eggs.

The Drug War is a government-sponsored, taxpayer-financed,
full-employment program for psycho/socio-paths, wannabees and
gonnabees.

It's not surprising that the Republican Administration has done
nothing to stop the "ethnic cleansing" going on in Yugoslavia. Ethnic,
political and religious cleansing is an implicit plank of the
Republican platform.
From: lefty@apple.com (Lefty)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: The Nurturing Network 1-800-TNN-4MOM
Date: 2 Sep 92 21:51:45 GMT
Organization: Our Lady of Heavy Artillery

In article <9aye0b9@Unify.Com>, sean@Unify.com (Sean P. Curley) adds one
line to a seventy line posting to ask:
> 
> How many children (emphasis on child(ish)) does it take to fill the net?

Counting _you_?

--
Lefty (lefty@apple.com)
C:.M:.C:., D:.O:.D:.
From: dsholtsi@csl36h.csl.ncsu.edu (Doug Holtsinger)
Subject: List of unsubstantiated accusations by Susan Garvin 
Reply-To: dsholtsi@csl36h.csl.ncsu.edu (Doug Holtsinger)
Organization: North Carolina State University
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1992 17:38:21 GMT

List of unsubstantiated accusations by Susan Garvin against me:


a) Unsubstantiated accusation that I had been making up sources 
   for an article that Susan Garvin had never seen. 

b) Unsubstantiated accusation that I had doctored a quote from a 
   Planned Parenthood official from an article that had been
   posted to the net. 

c) Unsubstantiated accusation that I have willfully lied on 
   talk.abortion.  

d) Unsubstantiated accusation that I had changed the meaning
   of a quote from a Georgetown University law professor. 



Doug Holtsinger
From: regard@sdd.hp.com (Adrienne Regard)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: aborting females
Date: 1 Sep 1992 16:04:02 -0700
Organization: Hewlett Packard, San Diego Division
NNTP-Posting-Host: hpsdde.sdd.hp.com

>In article <1992Sep1.201106.19760@u.washington.edu> jnorris@milton.u.washington.edu (Joel Norris) writes:
>}But are these people pro-choice or not? I would expect that pro-life people
>}wouldn't like sex-selection abortions.

I guess I'd say I don't like the notion of sex-selection abortions.
However, I'd also say I don't like the notion of sex-selected upbringing
even more, yet that's so common as to be invisible in this day and age.
Shall I go to bat to legislate on how y'all *should* raise your children?

Adrienne Regard
Xref: sparky talk.abortion:34083 alt.abortion.inequity:3334
From: stevens@eatdust (John Stevens)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion,alt.abortion.inequity
Subject: Re: Legal Questions
Date: 31 Aug 92 14:26:38 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: Who?  ME!?

In article <1992Aug26.222413.12094@coopsol.com> gordons@coopsol.com (Gordon Storga) writes:
><1992Aug25.184334.13929@advtech.uswest.com> stevens@eatdust (John Stevens) said:
>>In article <ovuh25g@fido.asd.sgi.com> cj@sgi.com writes:
>
>>We cannot afford to define the begining of life as that point where the
>>fetus reaches sapience, because that would leave the door open for
>>the legal right to execute brain-damaged individuals.  Not a pretty
>>picture.
>
>This is a fallacy.  A fetus is not a person.  It has no legal rights.

Currently true.  But IMO, that's what this discussion is all about, changing
that.  Just because a fetus is not recognized as a person now, does not
mean that law (or amendments to the constitution) cannot be passed to
change it's status.

>Gordon

John
stevens@uswest.com
From: dsh@odin.ece.ncsu.edu (Doug Holtsinger)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Subject: Re: Cough Man's hypocrisy
Date: 30 Aug 92 17:28:01 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University

In article <1992Aug27.213923.7964@rigel.econ.uga.edu> 
mills@uga.edu (Kathi Mills) writes:

> Under Roe, ALL ABORTIONS AFTER 24 WEEKS OF GESTATION MAY BE PROHIBITED BY
> EACH STATE, WITH THE SINGLE EXCEPTION OF THOSE PERFORMED TO SAVE THE LIFE
> OF THE MOTHER.

This is not correct.  Roe v. Wade does not permit the states 
to prohibit abortions which are necessary to preserve the woman's 
health, where the term ``health'' is given a broad interpretation.
 
> Therefore, EVERY state may enact legislation requiring a physician to
> attempt to preserve the life of a fetus that is 24 weeks' gestation or older.

No, this is not correct either.  Legislation to require a physician to 
employ the abortion technique which would provide the best opportunity
for the fetus to be aborted alive was struck down by the Supreme
Court in Colautti v. Franklin (1979).  

>Ferrari (mills@rolf.stat.uga.edu)


Doug Holtsinger

      "My logic is based on ... a religious perspective which says
 that personhood begins at birth (actually a month after birth if
 we want to be precise)..."
   -- Gloria Feldt,
      chief executive, Planned Parenthood of Central and Northern Arizona

  "I see nothing extreme or reprehensible about this statement."
    -- garvin+@cs.cmu.edu (Susan Garvin) <BtnDAw.Iwo.2@cs.cmu.edu>
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: steven@jaynes ( Steve Novak)
Subject: Re: WILL THE REAL MISOGYNISTS PLEASE STAND UP? Case 1.
Organization: U S WEST Advanced Technologies
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 18:03:35 GMT

> = (Peter Nyikos) writes:

>>   "One can be a racist.  Or one can be a human being.  But one
>>may not be both."
>>                                 - Rabbi Abraham Joshua heschel

>Have you told that to the human being whom Chaney so endearingly
>calls PatricKKK?

Geez, Petey, do the continual anti-Jewish remarks by Holtsinger and
Chaney really pale in your mind next to the one mistake made by
Patrick?

Hypocrite.

-- 
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
| Steve Novak |    |"Wacker the K"| 
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
steven@advtech.USWest.Com
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
From: nyikos@math.scarolina.edu (Peter Nyikos)
Subject: Re: "With my speculum I am all-powerful"--reference?
Keywords: speculum, right-on
Organization: USC  Department of Computer Science
Date: 21 Aug 92 20:35:05 GMT

This one does not seem to have shown up yet, so once again I re-post.

In <nyikos.714173178@milo.math.scarolina.edu> nyikos@math.scarolina.edu (Peter Nyikos) writes:

>Many years ago I came across something, or across a reference
>to something titled "With My Speculum I Am All-Powerful."  Does
>anyone know what it's about, who wrote it, where it appeared, anything?
>It's one of those catchy titles, like "Sappho Was A Right-On Woman,"
>that stick in my mind long after everything else associated with them
>has faded away.

>Peter Nyikos

Xref: sparky talk.abortion:33722 alt.flame:12370
From: trashman@crud.mn.org (Barry Schwartz)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion,alt.flame
Subject: Re: Chaney's problems - call for discussion (was: Re: Garvin gets stabbed in the back! (was Re: The world according to propeller-boy - part 1
Date: 27 Aug 92 05:42:00 GMT
Followup-To: alt.flame
Organization: TSAKC-TC

In article <BtCHLr.7Kr@cs.dal.ca>
        franklin@ug.cs.dal.ca (Steve Franklin) tells someone:

]... I am forced to look at your nauseating
].sig to boot...

Oh, you poor, poor victim.



--
Barry Schwartz        trashman@crud.mn.org