From: kstewart@ptdcs2.intel.com (Kent Stewart)
Subject: Re: A Better Idea
Organization: Intel Corporation -- Aloha, Oregon
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 23:36:15 GMT



I'm going to try and keep this short, Joe, because the net doesn't need the
noise and I still find your perception of events so unbelievably skewed
that we're really not talking about the same thing at all, making
mutual understanding highly unlikely.

I will respond to a couple of points.

>
>>In a very short span of time you managed to generate
>>*far* more nastiness directed at us than we were being accused of. Far
>>more.
>
>BULLSHIT.  You folks generated more nastiness.  You created your little
>mailing list, which from day one on there I read was WAY better than
>bignet.  When large contributers of r.m.gd got on, they left the net.
>That to me sounds like you stole the future contributions of those
>folks from the net.

People walked away from r.m.gd. long before the wheel ever existed, and
will continue to walk away from it, whether alternatives exist or not. 
None of those people are in any way responsible for the enjoyment of those 
who choose to stay. This is life.

Nobody can "steal" contributions. Contributions are voluntary actions
one is either moved to make or is not.  If I get married and settle down,
and stop spending all my free time at the corner bar, did my wife steal
me away from my barroom buddies?  I say no! And if one of those buddies
considers me a selfish asshole for coming to the bar less often, there's
a limit to how much I can afford to care.

Now if I occassionally drop by the bar just to tell everybody there what
losers they are, that *is* being an asshole. I agree.

I know of two people out of about 70 on the wheel who chose to do this.
I and many others thought that that was wrong and unkind, and told them
so.  

  Sure, some of the wheelies still post here.  But
>the larger amount of folks just stopped.  This is a fact, not my opinion.
>I pointed it out.  I pointed out the truth.

People have lives, Joe.  A *lot* of people drift away from forums like
this because the signal to noise ratio makes the huge time investment seem
less worthwhile.  Finding or creating something that works better merely
accelerates a very natural process.

Even on the Wheel--where I consider the signal to noise ratio usually very
good--there are months in a row where a lot of these good people you blame
for leaving r.m.gd. don't have the time to contribute. Life goes on.
Sometimes we can come out to play, and sometimes we can't. I've been 
around usenet enough years that I think walking away from it eventually
is a very natural thing for a lot of people, whether or not they create
or find something similar they like better.

>The point was, that we had read all these pathetic goodbye notes from
>long.time.net.folks telling us how much shit our place was, and that they
>were leaving. 

Like I say, I remember two.  I remember two others who chose to stay and
try to help make r.m.gd. more enjoyable who eventually decided that the
obstinance of the diamondback sect made their efforts seem unfulfilling.

> Then I find that all these folks have banded together
>and sat in their secret and special little place stating how great they
>are and how shitty bignet is.

That's what you chose to see. I saw a bunch of people talking about cats,
computing, kids, music, relationships, politics, words, humor and the
weather.  A couple of people out of 70 may well have expressed unfavorable
opinions about usenet, but it was hardly what we were about, any more than
secrecy was what we were about.  You are the only person out of 70 that
saw this spectre of insidious evil and nastiness you apparently felt
duty bound to expose.  Any forum of diverse people is going to generate
topics some consider noise.  Stuff I payed little attention to, and 
which generated such a tiny proportion of the overall volume, is what 
you chose to see as our charter and reason for existence. And this is
what you told the world.

No, I don't think you're lying. I just think the reality you believe in
bears virtually no resemblance to the one I live in. 

>  They took from us when the going was good
>but when the going got tough they left.

Interesting statement! If what they were doing was "taking from you",
why do you resent them so for leaving? 

I say many of these people *gave* for a period of time, many of them
for years and years, and eventually some of them stopped.  Usenet is
what it is, and many good people--not just r.m.gd. readers--eventually
decide to spend their time and efforts elsewhere.

You might argue that usenet is not what it is, but rather is what we
make of it.

The counterargument would be that the level of voluntary cooperation is
not high enough to make that statement meaningfull.  There are some
determinedly pig-headed people who *will* intentionally lower the quality
of the forum, just because they can.

This is true throughout usenet. R.m.gd. has never been exempt from it.

>>Sure, I'm all in favor of a kinder, gentler usenet.  But I also remember
>>very clearly who started the last shitstorm. It wasn't Wharf Rat. Nor was
>>it myself.  
>
>That's the bullshit statment of last year Bongo.  I pointed out the way
>the wheel was.

No, you pointed out what your mind thought was real.  Isn't it odd that
not one of the other 70 eye-witnesses saw any more than faint threads
of truth in your dire indictment?  And that among these 70 people are
many kind, intelligent, sensitive and caring individuals who have a
pronounced dislike for nastiness?

Do we all lack your acute powers of perception, or are we all evil 
conspirators, unrepentant of our foul deeds?

No, Joe, the Wheel didn't start the last shitstorm. A couple of people
were publicly and privately unkind, perhaps.  A drop in the bucket in the
the caustic flamefest of usenet.  And a personal decision by two people.

And that's the thing about voluntary forums: one can only control one's 
own contributions.  I could no more prevent those two people from posting
their nasty goodbyes than I could prevent andrejko from posting his little
"year in review" bullshit.  I can respond when I think somebody is mistaken.
That's what I've done w.r.t. public nastiness, and that's what I'm doing
now with you.

>Styfle me in you own private forum,
>you're not going to do it here.

I'm not out to stifle anybody, in any forum.  I'm just pointing out that
you accusing people of spreading ill will seems pretty ironic to me. I know
you probably don't see it that way, but I'm far from the only one who does.

apologies to digest readers who really didn't want to read this crap.
--bongo 

    "if you don't like the news, go out and make some of your own."

Newsgroups: rec.music.gdead