From: rsrodger@wam.umd.edu (Yamanari)
Subject: Re: Boycotts (was Re: Why are many low-income women fat?)
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 17:48:05 GMT

In article <Bzs72C.B2y@news.cso.uiuc.edu> levine@symcom.math.uiuc.edu (Lenore Levine) writes:
>rsrodger@wam.umd.edu (Yamanari) writes:
>>	Someone extremely obese might need (at least) a new
>>	chair, but also a new desk (to go with the chair).  This
>>	isn't guesswork--I had to set up an office for my parents,
>>	both of whom are over 350.
>
>The policies are implemented against people who are *not* extremely
>obese, just heavier than the weight tables; people who would not
>in any way need a special work area. 


	That passes that criterion, then.


>>>I think you are not cynical enough. These companies are not
>>>discriminating against Andre the Giant type people, but against
>>>Lech Walesa and Roseanne Barr type people.
>
>>	Also, it takes a lot to convince me of discrimination.
>
>In many cases, these policies are a matter of public record. For
>example, in the case of the systems analyst, she was explicitly
>told by her contact at the employment agency that Sun would not
>hire her.


	And number two.


>>>(By the way, note the winter conditions faced by the ancestors
>>>of these two individuals.) 
>
>>	You wont find any arguments from me here.  I've been
>>	fighting withmy weight since childhood, and while I generally
>>	win (but not in the last stressful 7 months, unfortunately) 
>>	I acknowledge that others do not have this problem due
>>	to genetics.
>
>>	<I take consolation in great cheek bones>
>
>There are many medical scientists, who *now* believe that individuals
>with a genetic disposition to fatness shouldn't fight it. For more
>information, I suggest you post to sci.med, where there was an explicit
>discussion of this subject that essentially came to the above
>conclusion.


	I tend to get joint problems when I put on weight, and
	I feel shortness of breath and the whole deal.  Slim, I feel
	wonderful--full of energy, active, better ableto study and 
	concentrate.  


>Self-discipline is a good thing, but societies may push or impose
>*kinds* of self-discipline that are counterproductive in the long run.


	Perhaps.  


>For example, C.S. Lewis, the Christian science fiction writer, was
>was not married most of his adult life. He went to enormous lengths to
>fight his desires to masturbate, which he regarded as a sin. He even
>avoided foods that would make him want to perform this activity. 
   ^^^^   ^^^   ^^^  ^^^   ^^   ^^  ^^  ^^  ^^^^^    ^^   ^^^
	
	Sounds like he was unable to make the distinction between
	what people preach and what they practice.  



>>	Better to use the media.  Heck, cross post it to enough 
>>	groups and you'll get it dessimated--not justin your post,
>>	but in all of the crossposted "Why is this in alt.spam??" 
>>	posts.. 
>> 
>>	There's a damn xtian who does the same thing now and then
>>	with his antiabortion bits, his "chopstick culture" bits 
>>	and other things.
>
>Why don't you credit me with the intelligence, to post calls for
>boycotts to appropriate groups? 


	I wasmerely pointing out that by crossposting to 
	inappropriate groups you'd actually get *more* attention to
	the subject, not suggesting that you'd be so foolish to do so.


>Why do you think you're the only person
>who realizes that posting to inappropriate groups doesn't win any
>friends?


	Never said so.  See the quote of me above and don't be so touchy.



>As long as I'm on my soapbox, I'd like to bring up another concern I
>have about your postings. 


	Might as well.


>I think we are in agreement that there's
>a problem in our culture, of young women who do not have adequate job
>training. 

	
	We are agreed that young people do not have adequate job training
	because they take the opportunities they are GIVEN and either
	ignore them or waste them.


>I also think we're agreed on a main solution to this
>problem -- educating these women to seek job training out, before they
>have children. 


	I see the main solution as teaching people that if they
	aren't prepared, the world will eat them alive.  This should
	be mixed in with exploratory education--job training isn't
	goingto do much if the job they are trained for is one they
	dislike--"work" can be a lot of fun if you find what you do 
	interesting.  


>However, your postings do disturb me in retrospect,
>not because I don't essentially agree with you on these matters -- I
>do -- but because of your emotional tone. I really got a feeling from
>you, of disgust for these women. 


	You're right.  I find voluntary ignorance revolting.  When I'm
	sitting in class and I see some bimbo doing her makeup, I feel
	an almost violent need to try and communicate to that person
	just what it is they're doing: condemning themselves to miserable
	failure and condemning me to paying for it, listening to their
	whining about how unfair life is, and taking the blame for their
	own failure.  

	I _do_ find it disgusting--I cannot imagine feeling any other
	way towards these people.  They remind me, very much, of Joe
	Bully on the playground who bullies the other kids with his
	pre-mature growth and then, when they've all grown too and
	ignore him, cries about how unfair life is.  

	Sympathy?  Well, perhaps I'm a little cold hearted.  They
	have been told it's important, they have been told that it's
	urgent, they have been told that it's essential--to their 
	future.  They have been _shown_ all of these things, on
	television, in real life [just walk downtown in DC], their
	neighbors, their parents, their relations can all tell or show
	the need for education and preparation--and what do they
	do with it?  In their arrogance--insolence--they IGNORE the
	world and pursue their own selfish ways and then 
	_blame_ the rest of _us_ for _their_ failure.  And it can be
	no one elses than theirs!

	I almost compulsively state things using very strong
	wording and fanatic presentation, and I am aware of this,
	but it is the only way I know to get across the urgency I 
	feel on certain problems.  So take the above with a grain
	of salt--I do feel *sorry* for them, but that doesn't mean
	I feel _responsible_ for their problems or any desire to
	pay for their failure.


>I don't think disgust is appropriate in this case. I particularly
>don't think it would be appropriate for me. I have a hard enough
>time getting on the emotional wavelength of these women, in order
>to reach them, anyway. 


	Some of the best teachers I've had were teachers that I 
	actively disliked.  I remember my original spanish teacher, 
	who was almost insectoid in manner, and I also remember that
	I learned more in that class, rapidly, than I have learned in
	many others with teachers that I liked or felt attuned to.  

	Some of the _worst_ teachers I've had were teachers that
	empathized with the students, because yound men and women 
	tend to be naturally manipulative.  With no armor or defense--
	only understanding--he was powerless to maintain a heirarchy
	over the class.


>And I don't see how to reach them and educate
>them without having some empathy with them. 


	It has to be a two sided affair.  You can't teach someone
	that doesn't want to learn, no matter how badly you wish to do
	so.


>By the way, I would like to hear from people on this group who've worked
>with teenagers, particularly female teenagers. Have you been able to 
>convince them that studying is important? What methods did you use?


	Why the focus on young women?

	Something I have never understood is how feminists can miss what
	is so painfully obvious to me:  You cannot change something as
	entrenched in society as, say, the self-centered mindset of youth
	that allows them to blow off their duty to learn by focusing on
	only 1/2 of the problem.  

	Focusing on young women only is pointless--not only will you
	be fighting the mindset that they hold, you will be indirectly
	fighting that of the young men around them who they see 
	"getting away" with not doing anything and just gliding through.

	It's akin to making a rope bridge across a gorge and wondering
	why it isn't working just because you're unwilling to attach it
	to the opposite side.

	If you were serious about trying to solve the problem--and this
	is why I suspect that most feminists are not--you would attack
	the problem and not the symptoms.  


-- 
       "If you can't eat sand, why the hell are you living in a desert?"

     Equality is a delusion, suffering is a fairy tale and God is a fantasy.
       Blaming society for inequality is like blaming the sky for rain.
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