HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bressler@iftccu.ca.boeing.com (Rick Bressler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Re: Glock 17L (was: Glock & SIG Triggers)
Date: 12 Aug 92 13:32:05 GMT
Organization: Boeing Commercial Airplane Group


/ iftccu:rec.guns / tmi@well.sf.ca.us (Peter Kasler) /  7:04 am  Aug 10, 1992 /

#I said nothing to indicate that a Model 17L is unsafe, nor that long
#barrels are less appropriate that shorter barrels. The reason, in my
#opinion, that a Model 17L is inappropriate for defense is that it
#comes equipped with a 3.5# trigger about which the factory takes the
#position that the pistol should be used only for competition purposes.
#Having to defend against charges and allegations that could arise out
#of using a Model 17L in a defense shooting would best be avoided, if
#possible.

I've got to agree with Peter.  I'd imagine that most of the 'experts' do
too.  I know Ayoob and Farnum do.  Under stress you can exert well over
50! lbs of force with your trigger finger, without even thinking of it.
Simply reaching for something with your weak hand can cause several
pounds of sympathetic contraction of your gun hand causing an
unintentional discharge.  Police records are littered with such
shootings.  Most experts consider 5-6 lbs to be rock bottom for a
'street' gun, and 10-15 lb double action of some sort to be preferable.
Those who wonder what is wrong with a 3.5 lb trigger are assuming that
the situation will be cut and dried.  See criminal, bang.

In this rare circumstance it might not be a problem.  Unfortunately,
there are often innocents in the area, maybe even your family.  Do you
really WANT a hair trigger at that stressful point?  I submit that
anybody who answers 'yes' has probably not had any real training on the
subject.

Rick.

Yes, I know that 3.5 lbs doesn't really qualify as a 'hair' trigger.  I
have seen quite a few (target!) rifles with triggers that are measured
in ounces, and not many ounces at that!
From: jharres@doc.bmd.trw.com
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: RE: .22 cal handgun
Date: 21 Aug 92 23:09:50 GMT

#From: ghm@ccadfa.cc.adfa.oz.au (Geoff Miller)

#cgallagh@cordelia.next.nd.edu (christopher gallagher) writes:

##I went to a .22 cal target shooting match with a cousin and enjoyed it  
##very much.  I would like to get involved where I live.  I have shot skeet  
##but have only plinked with a few pistols.  I would appreciate any  
##suggestions on pistols that are good enough for competition.

#Suggestion 1:  _don't_ bother with new pistols.  Look at secondhand
#guns.  Buy a new gun when you're sure you want to stick with the
#sport.

Also many competitors will let you try their gun (after they get to know you).
This allows you to get started at a resonable price and make the final gun
decision later.

#Suggestion 2:  for specific models, try the Hi-Standard Citation/Victor
#(no longer produced, but still an excellent gun if in good condition  -
#I started with one, sold it and have been regretting this every since)
#or the S&W model 41.  You might also be lucky and find a good old
#Browning or Colt, but only consider those models with a heavy barrel.

All good guns and do stick with a heavy barrel.

#Suggestion 3:  DO NOT consider the Ruger or the lightweight S&W autos.
#All the ones I have seen have had lousy triggers.  An experienced shooter
#can work around a poor trigger, but not a beginner.

The Ruger becomes a reasonable starting gun if you get the government model
and then put a trigger kit in it (Brownell's has one for around $60).  In
addition the Browning Buckmark 5.5 is also a good starter, however these
also need a little trigger work (just a good polishing and surface alignment).

#Geoff Miller  (g-miller@adfa.oz.au)

My preference is the High Standard Victor and the S&W model 41.  Their weight
is a little hard to get used to for a beginner tho.  Espescially if you
add an optical sight to them. 

Jim Harres     jharres@oz.bmd.trw.com
From: jbm@cyclone.sbi.com (Jeffrey B. Moore)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Need opinions:  Ruger GP100 .357 versus other .357s
Date: 21 Aug 92 23:10:01 GMT

Umm, the Ruger *does* have really nice grips;  but all I've
encountered have had nasty, hard, kinda rough triggers.  S&Ws usually
start with better triggers, and there are many fine aftermarket grips
for 'em.  Grips may cost less than a trigger job, and it's worth
bearing in mind that there are far more smiths around capable of doing
a good trigger job (if necessary) on Smiths than on Rugers.  Besides,
as you acknowledged, we're peeved with Mr. Bill.

And I still like Pythons, myself.

-Jeff Moore (jbm@sbi.com)
From: SYSTEMM@FRED.ALHRG.WPAFB.AF.MIL (System Manager Wuest)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: RE: Shotgun or rifle for self defense
Date: 17 Aug 92 17:53:14 GMT

Jim Henson writes:  n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)

#I was thinking that light buckshot loads in a 12 ga would be
                     ^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^
#preferable to a 20 ga, as the 12 is more versitile, more 
#ammo available, and he can use the normal stuff when one is
#more accustomed to the 12.

   "Light buckshot" loads?  That must be an oxymoron!  Maybe you are 
   thinking of #4 shot.  (BTW there is a #3 buck in 20 gauge - that is as
   big as it gets for the 20.  At least that's all I've been able to find).

   I have read a _number_ of articles on shotguns for home (not personal)
   defense.  (Might be a little obvious walking down Main st with a shotgun).
   The *experts* generarlly recommend #7 1/2 shot for in-home use.  The main
   reasoning being overpenatration, hit or miss.  "Guns and Ammo" did a 
   review last year using miltiple sheets of drywall.  I didn't save the
   article (wish I had now), but the results are what you would expect...

   #7 1/2 shot at 5-15 feet is a loosly packed "bullet" 2 - 6 inches in 
   diameter.  Definetly bad news if you are on the receiving end.  A near
   miss could very easily take off a limb.  But your wife and kids are safe it
   they are 2 drywalls away.

==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==
|  Mike Wuest, Allin1, DDN, & VAX Systems Manager  SYSTEMM@ALHRG.WPAFB.AF.MIL |
|  Armstrong Labs, Logistics Research Div.         SYSTEMM@[131.28.15.14]     |
|  Comm: (513)255-8225    DSN 785-8225    (a.k.a.) MWUEST@ALHRG.WPAFB.AF.MIL  |
|  "If it wasn't for our guns, we would be British citizens.  Think about it!"|
| Disclaimer: Opinions are like ears; everybody has a couple - these are mine!|
==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==  ==(*)==
From: jca@crash.cts.com
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .40 s&w questions
Date: 20 Aug 92 13:07:26 GMT
Organization: CTS Network Services (crash, ctsnet), El Cajon, CA

In article <cavasin.714187054@muse> cavasin@convex.com (Vince Cavasin) writes:
#Soon I'll be looking to buy a (probably) large-frame pistol in .40 s&w.  Right
#now I like the big smith and wesson (can't remember model number: 4006?) but
#everyone seems to think it's not worth the money.  I also like the baretta m96
#a lot.  I've heard some positive things about the sig (is it available yet?).

As far as I know, there are only evaluation pistols that SigArms has
loaned to law enforcement agencies.

#I'm not very impressed with the glock.  Ideally, I'd like a stainless/alloy
#frame/slide, >=11 round magazine capacity, and traditional double action.
#Concealability isn't a major concern.
#
#My questions:
#
#has taurus come out with a model 96 clone yet?

Yes.  In fact, the Taurus .40 S&W pistol (PT-100/101) came out before
the Beretta 96.

#there's no such thing as a stainless model 96, is there?

That I don't know, I never was a Beretta fan.

#is browning ever going to have a .40 high power?

Supposedly yes.  I keep on hearing talk that there is going to be a 
.40 S&W BDM, but it's just talk.

#How are the Rugers? (I haven't looked at these at all)

Ugh, not the evil R word on rec.guns.  ;)

#also, if you have recommendations or disrecommendations for a specific
#make/model, please let me know.  I'm also interested in magazine reviews if
#you know of any (er, I should say "reviews in magazines", not to be confused
#with reviews OF magazines...:^).

You might want to look into an S&W 411.  It's basically an S&W 4006, but
with a non-ambidexterous safety.  List price is $525.
--

     // JCA

 /*
 ** ARPA    : jadpc!thewall!jca@nosc.mil | 13 + 1 = 228... 
 ** INTERNET: jca@thewall.cts.com        |
 **           jca@thewall.uucp           |           SIG-Sauer P228...
 ** UUCP    : nosc!jadpc!thewall!jca     |
 */
From: forda@gtephx.UUCP (Andrew Ford @ AGCS, Phoenix, Arizona)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Gun Safes [Full Size]
Date: 12 Aug 92 13:34:13 GMT
Organization: gte

In article <1992Aug6.223221.750@porthos.cc.bellcore.com>, fist@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Richard Pierson) writes:
# First, is there a FAQ on full size gun safes, I havent
# seen one yet only discussions on bedside one gun types.
# 	[MODERATOR: No FAQ...]
# I have started looking for a multiple gun safe >24 long
# guns and have been kinda knocked off my feet by the prices
# [$3k+ with gold plated hardware from an outfit in Utah]
# [2000lb+ from the same outfit beautiful enough for furniture]
# Are there any discount houses on brownings where you
# dont get it for shipping [Boy is FOB a shocker if you
# dont know what it means]. Wont be checking for a couple
# of weeks and maybe by then I will have compiled a list.
# This was suggested as a safety measure with reguards to
# "daring" from my sons or daughters friends as in "I dare
# you to load it ...etc" I just want to avoid any problems
# that might come down the road if possible and remove tem-
# tation {Hiding places dont work, I find it hard to belive
# how observant kids can be when theyre not even home..}
# Next house gets one built in that I can walk into when
# the cellar gets poured along with my indoor range.

Try going for several smaller safes.  I have one which holds 7-8 guns,
is moveable by hand but bolted to the wall, and I belive my wife spent
around $250 (US) for it.  Four of those would only cost about a grand
and you could pick them up yourself from your local gun shop or 
maybe even K-MART, SERVICE MERCHANDISE, or the like. 

If you're just trying to prevent kids from getting to your guns, 
simple keyed safe (preferable the kind they use on Coke machines)
will do the trick.  (Not to mention that is will proably prevent
theft too -- not many thieves come in to rip open safes, most just
take what is there and useful -- not necessarily valuables)

[Before anyone asks, my neighbor was working out of town for 9 months
and his house was broken into: two handguns, some silver dollars, 
and costume jewelry was stolen.  The expensive jewelry, an 
antique shotgun, and some silver boullion were left (and could not
have been missed).  These guys took what the could unloade quickly
and left what would draw obvious attention.]

-- 
"25 States allow anyone to buy a gun, strap it on, and walk down the street with
no permit of any kind: some say it's crazy.  However, 4 out of 5 US murders are 
committed in the other half of the country: so who is crazy?"   -  Andrew Ford
gtephx!forda@enuucp.eas.asu.edu  OR  !uunet!samsung!romed!enuucp!gtephx!forda
From: sfaber@ihlpb.att.com (Steven R Faber)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Chronographs, pressure tape
Date: 21 Aug 92 03:35:55 GMT
Organization: AT&T

#From article <Bt7078.6LB@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, by cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (Chris Luchini):
# In article <1992Aug18.144349.23767@news.yale.edu>, you write:

# #
# #I also read somewhere that you can get a pretty good imitation of a
# #pressure transducer by putting some special resistive-mesh tape on your
# #barrel and monitoring the stretch.  I think I've also read that one of
# #the Oehler (sp?) model chronographs has inputs for such tape.
# #
# 
# 	Strain guage. Unless you have a ocilliscope, you only
# 	get the peak of the pressure curve. It's basicly only for bolt
# 	or TC type guns. I imagine you could mount it on a Luger, but
# 	anything with a moving barrel will rip the leads off the strain guage.
# 
# #Anyone have experience with this?  Would I need to get something like
# #a T/C Contender barrel to use this?  How accurate is it?  What's
# #involved in getting a true time/pressure curve?  Is it as much fun
# #as shooting?

Just called Oehler for some info on the chrono. you are referring to.
It does use a conventional epoxied on strain gauge with the limitations
Chris mentioned.  The model 43 has no display, but connects thru a 
serial port to a PC compatible computer, usually one would use a
portable laptop.  It has provision for chronograph screens for both
near and remote locations.  It can also use a "target module" (optional)
that uses 3 microphones for the pickup, making it easier to miss.
This assumes the bullet is still supersonic at the target.
The remote pickups, of course,  make it possible to measure the
ballistic coefficient.  
The pressure measurement part digitizes the signal and presents
the entire curve as well as the peak pressure on the PC.

It is a bit pricey though, someone told me it was around $600?

I am working on the peak measuring strain gauge unit from the handloader
article and some cheaper variations.  I'll post some results when
I get them.

Steve Faber
From: zymurgy.megatek!avf@uunet.UU.NET (Andy Funk)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: S&W J Frames
Date: 23 Aug 92 03:09:33 GMT
Organization: Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California


I've recently aquired a Smith & Wesson Model 60 J Frame .38 Special
revolver. 

My problem is that I'm unhappy with the snag factor of the hammer. What I'd
like is another hammer similar to the Colt rounded commander style. I
originally thought of welding one up, but am unsure of how critical the
weight factor is.

I chose the M60 (stainless version of the M36) because I wanted to be able
to take advantage of the nice S&W single action trigger.

The M640, I think, is double action only because of it's hidden hammer, so I
passed this one up.

While perusing the S&W catalogs, I ran across an optional bobbed hammer
called the NYPD*SP. Has anyone seen this hammer? How bobbed is it? can this
be replaced by a RKI, or should I contact the factory? It's about 33 bucks.

Also, I'm revisiting the M649. It's kind of ugly, but if it can be cocked
for single action, then maybe that's what I wanted in the first place. Does
anyone have one of these?

While I'm here, may I ask your opinions of the various concealed holsters
for this guy?  Thanks.
From: tmi@well.sf.ca.us (Peter Kasler)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Occasional Dud in Glock 20
Date: 15 Aug 92 17:00:46 GMT
Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link

In <1992Aug14.042158.15600@news.eng.convex.com> cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) writes:

#Well, there _is_ one reason to use reloads: factory ammo is so expensive
#that I simply can't afford to buy the quantity of magic Silver Hydra-Talon
#rounds that I need to practice. Thus, if I'm going to practice regularly
#with the same ammo I would use for defense, I don't see a good alternative
#to working up a good hand-load, and then using that both for defense and
#practice. Comments?

	The main reason to *not* use reloads for defense is exposure
to legal liability challenges following a shooting. If expense is the
basis for wanting to use reloads that are the "equivalent" of a
factory round, why not simply practice with the inexpensive stuff and
use the more costly factory ammunition for defense? What you use for
practice or any purpose other than defense can not come back to bite
you after a shooting as can using non-factory stuff for the actual
shooting. 
	If one can not afford the relatively small expense of factory
defense ammunition that is not used for practice, but only for keeping
in one's defense gun, then perhaps one should consider how a very
costly legal defense would impact the old budget. While I wouldn't
insult someone by suggesting that if factory ammunition is too
expensive for defense purposes they should abandon their defense gun
in favor of some other form of defense, I would suggest that a little
less practice (*just* enough less to equal the cost difference between
normal defense quantity of factory ammunition vs. the same quantity of
handloaded) would indeed be an appropriate resolution.
-- 
                           Peter Alan Kasler
                      Threat Management Institute
                 800 West Napa Street, Sonoma, CA 95476
     Voice: 707-939-0303  =  tmi@well.sf.ca.us  =  Fax: 707-935-1713
From: jaf@a2.cim.cdc.com (James Foster x2197)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Colt Sporter Models and Prices
Date: 17 Aug 92 17:53:08 GMT


I know I've seen this a while back, but could some kind soul describe the
different Sporter models available and how they differ? I remember
hearing terms like HBar, Delta HBar, Match, and Competition HBar, but am
not clear on the exact differences.  In particular, a local shop has
a Competition HBar that I'm interested in.  This has the longer and
heavier barrel.  Are these the barrels that have been selected for accuracy?
Their price is $750 NIB.  This seems reasonable to me.  What are the 
typical gun show and retail prices for this model? 

Another topic:  How can I tell if a batch of surplus ammunition uses
corrosive primers?  This is Chinese 7.62x39 ball.  It's labled "Intrac"
and packed two 720 round tins per case.  I'm assuming it's corrosive, but
out of curiosity, is there any way to test this?

Thanks,

Jim
From: SAPX@CORNELLC.cit.cornell.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: surplus rifle advise
Date: 12 Aug 92 23:33:35 GMT

There is so much to choose from just now and they all do pretty
much the same.Great for punching paper--- I bought a Yugo 98
Mauser last year and have had great fun with it.I think I paid
about $125 and I'ts in about new condision. The Swedish Mausers
are`nt as common as they were but the`re big fun too--- Best
deal I found was a Chinese 53 Nagant carbine. I was talked out
of that on a range when the guy I was shooting with saw it would'nt
shoot groups bigger than 3" at 100yds. Any body got an other one?
From: cower@SSD.intel.com (Rich Cower)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Colt AR/H-Bar/etc replacement stock question
Date: 20 Aug 92 21:41:21 GMT
Organization: Supercomputer Systems Division, Intel Corp.


I have a Match H-BAR rifle from Colt, and my 11 year old daughter really
likes to shoot it. The problem is the stock is a bit long for her. Would
one of these CAR stocks fit it - and is there anything to watch for when
buying one (ie..plastic vs. aluminum?) or installing one? Can I install it
at home? The price ranges in SGN seem to be $39 to $79, but I'm not
sure what the differences are.

thanks...rich cower
From: cash@convex.com (Peter Cash)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Occasional Dud in Glock 20
Date: 14 Aug 92 13:31:33 GMT
Organization: The Instrumentality

In article <1992Aug12.230110.1450@bbxrbk> bbx!bbxrbk!russ@unmvax.cs.unm.edu (Russ Kepler) writes:

#But it doesn't really matter.  If the point of the reload is to match
#the factory ammo you may as well use factory.  I use Hydroshoks in 9mm
#and Silvertip in .38 Special and am happy with the choices.  Sure, I

Well, there _is_ one reason to use reloads: factory ammo is so expensive
that I simply can't afford to buy the quantity of magic Silver Hydra-Talon
rounds that I need to practice. Thus, if I'm going to practice regularly
with the same ammo I would use for defense, I don't see a good alternative
to working up a good hand-load, and then using that both for defense and
practice. Comments?

On a related note, does anybody publish reloading info for plus-P 9mm
parabellum? 
-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
             |      Die Welt ist alles, was Zerfall ist.     |
Peter Cash   |       (apologies to Ludwig Wittgenstein)      |cash@convex.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[MODERATOR:  Your Humble Moderator prefers .45 Hydrashoks from Federal
for social occasions, but neither is he any richer than the next reader
of rec.guns.  So he shoots maybe a case of it a year to keep proficient
and maintain confidence that it feeds properly, but then handloads for 
a round that subjectively ``feels like'' the .45 in his hand; this he
shoots, err, a lot.  Right now the load is between 5.0 and 5.2gr Bullseye
behind 230gr hardball.  New experiments with W231 are pending. Remember,
your mileage may vary.]
From: nsc!jrr@decwrl.dec.com (Jerry Roe)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Top Man Stoppers???
Date: 15 Aug 92 02:47:46 GMT
Organization: National Semiconductor, Santa Clara

In article <1992Aug10.180613.18592@news.eng.convex.com> cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) writes:
#In article <1992Aug9.104019.25582@henson.cc.wwu.edu> n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:
#...
##BTW2, There is a maniac who is stalking him, in jail for it now, but due 
##to get out soon.  The aquaintance is expecting a Cape Fear type summer,*
##and wants something useful that he can learn to use quickly.   He has a 
##.22 rifle now, but may not purchace handguns due to being 20 years of age.
#
#Sounds bad. Given the parameters, I would recommend a semi-automatic
#carbine. The 20 gauge idea isn't bad--I suppose a 20 gauge loaded with #4
#buck (they do make those in 20 gauge, don't they?) would be quite deadly.
#However, I think he'd be much better off with something like a 9mm Marlin
#Camp Carbine. I haven't fired one myself, but everyone who has one says
#they're reliable (but get dirty quick). The gun is light, short, and takes
#standard S&W magazines. The recoil should be eminently manageable--less
#than a 20 gauge--and the Smith magazines should give him 14 or so rounds.

Aren't they making the Camp Carbine in .45 ACP now also?  I think I'd
prefer that over the 9MM.  Pipsqueak round, y'know...{:^)


Jerry Roe
jrr@nsc.nsc.com		...!{sun,pyramid,decwrl)!nsc!jrr
From: weed@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov (daniel weed 283-4162)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Blammo Ammo
Date: 19 Aug 92 15:13:46 GMT
Article-I.D.: sweetpea.9208191443.AA10545



That Blammo Ammo Dragons Breath magnesium whatever shotgun flamethrower
ammo sounds like great fun to shoot, but where would you shoot it?
Oh yes, next time you go trap or skeet shooting, just slip a little
Blammo in your shotgun -- Impress your friends! :-o  (and never shoot at that
range again.)

BTW, never shoot anyone in self defense with anything from a company
named Blammo Ammo.  You would be spanked very hard in court, very hard
indeed.

------------------------------------------------------------------
Daniel Weed                             weed@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov
McDonnell Douglas Space Systems Co. - Houston
          "My comments are my own, not my employer's"
From: richa@aspen.cna.tek.com (Rich Amber)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Beginners ?'s on caliber
Date: 19 Aug 92 00:32:50 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Redmond,  OR.



Wrong on one count - ACP = Automatic Colt Pistol (not caliber)
Even though Colt got the honor of nomenclating this rimless cartridge,
all manufacturers who make it still call it ACP.

Note that Rimmed cartridges have a rim in excess of the case diameter,
Rimless cartridges have a rim appx. equal to the case diameter, and
Rebated cartridges (e.g., .41AE and .50AE) have rims of less than case
diameter.

Rich Amber, NRA Life Member, Gunsmith (FFL, etc.)
Personal Protection Instructor, Firearms Safety Instructor,
Range Master, Board Member Central Oregon Shooting Sports Assn.,
etc., etc., etc.