HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Anti-Orthodoxy (was Re: O-C-R debate)
From: rivk@quads.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 21:10:27 GMT
Reply-To: rivk@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations

In article <1992Jul24.191706.556@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> er@iscp.Bellcore.COM (Elie Rosenfeld) writes:
>In article <1992Jul24.071839.29730@midway.uchicago.edu>, rivk@quads.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis) writes:
>|> Aside from the question of those parents who want their kids to get "a
>|> little bit" of Jewish education, there's the question of what kind of
>|> Jewish education they want their kids to get. If there were a Reform
>|> yeshiva in the vicinity, I would probably send my kids there full-time;
>|> and my parents did send me to our synagogue's day school when I was
>|> young, on the same principle. But I would teach my children myself
>|> rather than send them to an Orthodox *anything*; I have about the same
>|> degree of appreciation for and agreement with Orthodox religious the-
>|> ory as I do for Christianity, and I wouldn't let my kids grow up being
>|> trained by either one.
>
>Ms. Rivkis, despite the inflammatory nature of this paragraph, I'd like to ask
>a flame-free question:
>
>Could you please specify *which* tenets of Orthodox religious belief are
>so violently offensive to you?  Please stick to Orthodox *theory* (your own
>word) as opposed to imperfect reality.  I.e, I don't want to hear "They only
>care about Kosher but they don't care about being nice to people", since that
>is the practice of those who misuse, and do not fully follow, Orthodoxy.

All right, but please, people, I'd rather this didn't get out of hand.
I'm sorry I started it, and the fact that it was my own bad judgement
that brought it up is the only thing that's making me answer your question
now -- the last time I got into this discussion on soc.culture.jewish I
got an e-mail death threat and such a load of hate mail that I was forced
to drop, not only off the newsgroup, but off the net altogether for a few
months. So I'll discuss it if people insist, but please -- I'm sorry I
started off with such an inflammatory statement and can we please keep
this cooled down to the extent that nobody is threatening anyone else's
life?

Basic argument I have with Orthodoxy is one I've already stated: who 
decides what the Law means. I don't accept Talmud as being handed down
directly from G-d, nor do I accept the decisions of rabbis, ancient or
modern, as definitive. I accept the results of my own logic as definitive,
with all the rest being advice -- maybe very good advice, but only advice,
which I can weigh as my judgement dictates and take or leave according to
my own reasoning. In a lot of cases, the conclusion I come to is the same
as the halachic conclusion; but that's not because I'm "following" hala-
cha. I don't *follow* anything.

>Elie Rosenfeld   

	-Nora
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: rivk@quads.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis)
Subject: Re: Anti-Orthodoxy (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Reply-To: rivk@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 19:19:29 GMT

In article <84965@netnews.upenn.edu> weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P Wiener) writes:
>In article <1992Jul31.181615.2965@midway.uchicago.edu>, rivk@quads (nora gayle rivkis) writes:
>>The definitions of fit and unfit species, the rules regarding the
>>health condition of the animal, and the rules regarding method of
>>slaughter are the minimum that most Reform Jews I know keep and the
>>minimum most Reform Rabbis I know require.
>
>Do they also reject bacon eating converts from their less strict brethren?

What do you mean by 'reject?' If you mean do we throw them out of
the synagogue, no; neither do you, I would hope. If you mean will
the community disapprove of them and the rabbi try to talk them out
of it, yes.

>I don't think you mean "require".  I think you mean "speak positively on".

Possibly somewhere in between; how about "state fairly vehemently that
Jewish law requires, and show stern disapproval of violations."

>-Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)

	-Nora
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: chrism@cirrus.com (Chris Metcalfe)
Subject: Yigal Fails the Turing Test
Organization: Cirrus Logic Inc.
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 20:01:15 GMT

In article <22013@venera.isi.edu> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
>In article <1992Jul22.220540.1@ulkyvx.louisville.edu> taschr01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu writes:
>>
>> I'm looking for an apartment in Gilo Bet in Jerusalem for mid sept to mid
>> october for a couple.  If you know of any possbility, please respond to 
>> taschr01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu or in J'lem call Lenn Schramm at 63 01 38 
>> during the day.  
>
>Just to remove any possible doubt, Gilo is in the occupied territories.
>--
>Yigal Arens   "He seems like an average type of man.  He's not, like, smart.
>USC/ISI        I'm not trying to bag on him or anything, but he has the same
>arens@isi.edu  mentality I have -- and I'm in the eighth grade."     Vanessa
>               Martinez, after VP Quayle's visit to her school-LA Times 5/21

Only a machine or an idiot would tack on a political comment to an apartment
wanted add.  Truly out of control.

-- Chris Metcalfe
From: wwalker@bbn.com (Ward Walker)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Anti-Orthodoxy (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Date: 28 Jul 92 16:37:11 GMT
Organization: BBN Systems and Technology, Inc.

In article <1992Jul26.214408.18665@umbc3.umbc.edu> robertg@algol.cs.umbc.edu (Robert Gottlieb) writes:

>	Jews kept kosher because of being nomads in the desert and
>	not having such appliances as Refrigerators.  I could be wrong
>	on this, as I really won't clame to know everything about the
>	religion, but it just doesn't make much sense to not eat something
>	just because someone says it's not good.

The RAMBAM [Maimonides, b. 1134] writes in his ``Guide for the Perplexed:''

  The object of [the dietary laws] is to restrain ... the disposition to
  consider appetite for eating and drinking as the end of man's existance.


Kashrut is ultimately about self-discipline, something that I hope
everyone agrees has not been made obsolete by modern kitchen
appliances.

--Ward
(Reform Jew)
From: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: What is Jewish religion? (long...)
Date: 26 Jul 92 20:24:29 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department

In article <1992Jul24.190435.15128@cbfsb.cb.att.com> hillel@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (hillel.e.markowitz) writes:
>In article <55023@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin) writes:
>>In article <9207240050.AA26910@ptms_dev.sbi.com> <gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)> writes:
>>>hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
>>>>Where does it state in the Written Torah that circumcision is to be performed
>>>>by a mohel?

>>>It need not be stated.  A mohel is one who performs milah.  Do we
>>>need the Torah to state that speaking is to be performed by a speaker?

>>But this merely states that whoever performs a circumcision is a mohel!
>>Does one have to certify a speaker?

>>Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399


>If the speaker is being presented as an expert, yes.  An analogy is
>someone who wishes to get up in a court of law and speak.  Don't we
>say that this person should be a lawyer?  If someone was to speak
>in your department, wouldn't you insist that he be a a statistician
>rather than someone off the street, or even a mathematician whose
>training and knowledge come from a totally different area?

That someone who wishes to speak FOR ANOTHER in a court of law must be
a lawyer is a legal requirement, and precludes people from having those
they wish to speak for them.  As for someone speaking in our department,
this is judged on an individual case.  A statistician does not automatically
even get the permission, and we have had those whose training and knowledge
come from other areas speak to the department.
-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!pop.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: math4807@nexus.yorku.ca (Naomi Werner)
Subject: Tisha B'av Program in Toronto
Originator: math4807@nexus.yorku.ca
Organization: York University, Toronto, Canada
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 12:07:04 GMT

Sorry if this has appeared more than once, my poster appears to be              malfunctioning.
 
                  TISHA B'AV IN THOUGHT AND ACTION
 
 
 
 
        The entire community is invited to participate in
    a series of thought provoking lectures on the relevance
                   of Bisha V'av to our lives today
 
 
 
 
 
DATE:      Sunday August 9,1992
 
LOCATION:  CLANTON PARK SYNAGOGUE
           11 Lowensmoor Avenue
           Downsview, Ontario
 
TIME:      2:00 p.m.   Mincha
 
           2:30 p.m.   Rabbi Mordechai Ochs
                       Rabbi, Torath Emeth Congregation
 
                       THE ESSENCE OF TISHA B'AV
 
           3:30 p.m.   Rabbi Mark Dratch
                       Rabbi, Shaarei Shomayim Congregation
 
                       G-D as a MOURNER
 
           4:30 p.m.   Rabbi Aaron Levine
                       Rabbi, Educator and Author of a new Rosh
                       Hashana Anthology
 
                       NICHUM AVELIM - PRACTICAL APPLICATIONS
 
           5:30 p.m.   Rabbi Martin Lockshin
                       Co-ordinator of Jewish Studies, York University
 
                       A HISTORICAL AND LITERARY INTRODUCTION TO KINOT
 
           6:30 p.m.   Rabbi Yossi Michalowicz
                       Director, Toronto Jewish Network
 
                       TISHA B'AV and COMMUNAL RESPONSIBILITY
 
           7:30  p.m.   Mincha
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)
Subject: Re: Anti-Orthodoxy (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 16:54:29 GMT

In <FAIGIN.92Jul27081249@soldan.aero.org> faigin@aero.org (Daniel P.
Faigin) writes:

>I've been on the receiving end of the "Let's Beat Up The Liberal Movements"
>stick for years. I've seen more and more knowledable, committed Jews *leave*
>this forum because of the bashing and intolerance. NO ONE is expecting you to
>change your belief system. You shouldn't be intolerant of someone elses. And
>the treatment you show Nora is disgraceful.

I believe that the so-called "O-C-R" debate is ridiculous.  It is
completely impossible for Conservative or Reform Jews to win such a
debate, because those Orthodox who choose to flame are convinced that
they are right and that there's no room for argument.  Any arguing
must be done on their principles or it is rejected.

So.  The best thing (IMO) is to ignore flames against Reform or
Conservative movements, because you cannot argue with someone
convinced he know's G-d's viewpoint.  Instead, just keep doing what
you believe is just and right.  Don't let it get to you!  Most of the
Orthodox Jews I know are a lot more tolerant than the few
flame-throwers who stir up scj.

--
                     |         | "Step up and shake the hand
David F. Skoll       | ||||||| |  Of someone you can't stand,
|_ _ _  __   __ _ __ |  \\V//  |  You can tolerate him if you try..."
 / |  | |_|   | |  | |  __|__  |  -- Tom Lehrer, "National Brotherhood Week"
_____|________________________________________________________________________
From: ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Israeli Arab factor in elections
Date: 22 Jul 92 09:22:19 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

In article <2282@israel.nysernet.org> warren@nysernet.org writes:
>I am not prepared to assert that the only thing wrong with the way we
>were treated during our exile is the violence committed towards us.
>That we were excluded from the rights of citizenship was also wrong.
>
>If it was wrong when it was done to us, it would be wrong if we did it
>to others.

Behind the innocent idea , a very missliding idea is hidden.

One may think that there is any simetry here:
   Gentiles has done trubles to Jews , just because they hate Jews ,
   hen Jews did nothing wrong to gentiles , and had noevil will
   toward them
 and the other side there are some Jews here who want to hurt
 Arabs, while Arabs are innocent and do nothing wrong to Jews.

we should remember:
The protocols of the elders of zion is a fake protocol, The
Palestinian covenant is real.
Using gentiles blood on passover is a fake story, the declaration of
the Arab who with the help of his friends put the Jew Pomeranz alive
on fire is a fact ( He was send yesterday to 25 years at jail, He
said he is not sorry for what he did ).

NOTE: The fact is that there is a high hatred of leftists toward
      Arabs , the way they talk about them privately is far a way from
      what they use to say on public.
      the fact is that the "settlers" run an organization to save
      Arabs  who are about to be murdered by other Arabs , leftists do
      nothing like that.

>As to the difference between the Law of Return and denying the right
>to vote - people do not have a right to live in any country that they
>please.  They do, however, have a right to elect those that will
>govern them.

They also have the right to be elected as governers!
(So one should oppose stilling that right from the 2 rabbi Kahana
parties).

>For example, if the state of Kibonia decided told me I couldn't live
>there, that wouldn't violate anyone's rights.  If, however, they deny
>the right to vote to citizens whose ancestors lived in Bozonia, that's
>something else all together.

BUT
 If, however, they deny the right to be elected as president
 to citizens not born at  Bozonia, is that something else too?


>And yes, I am quite sure that there are people who think that it is
>not only a bad thing that Arabs can vote, but also think it's a bad
>thing that people like me have the right to object.  And I don't
>expect they'll stop at the first problem.

If you are a real democracy fighter , let us see you fight for the
right os Rabbi Kahana parties to run to the Knesset.
Be a real democrat, do not involve your idea on their ideas !

Shalom    gideon Ehrlich







Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: thf2@ellis.uchicago.edu (Ted Frank)
Subject: Re: Judaism at Democratic National Convention
Reply-To: thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 16:45:35 GMT

In article <5664@nosc.NOSC.MIL> mgross@halibut.nosc.mil (Michelle K. Gross) writes:
>>In article <1992Jul21.175642.20966@cabot.balltown.cma.COM> heller@cabot.balltown.cma.COM (Aaron J. Heller) writes:
>>
>>>Actually, this is a fairly tame account of what happened.  Nixon
>>>feared a Jewish conspiracy at the Bureau of Labor Statistics.  So in
>>>1971, he asked Malek to prepare a list of officials at the BLS who
>>>were Jewish.  After Makek produced his report, two of the Jews he had
>>>identified were reassigned.
>>
>The existence of a list itself
>may give the appearance of wrong-doing, so further questions as to its use
>are--in the contexts I have seen of evaluating gov't officials behavior--
>superfluous.  Of course, one must ask on whose payroll was Malek at the
>time of compiling the reported list?

Malek was working for the U.S. government as a Nixon Administration
appointee.  He's currently working for the Bush campaign.
-- 
                      ....................................
                      ted frank | thf2@midway.uchicago.edu
                      the university of chicago law school 
                      official member of the cultural elit
From: rivk@quads.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: O-C-R debate
Date: 24 Jul 92 17:16:27 GMT
Reply-To: rivk@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations

In article <1992Jul24.152323.28419@umbc3.umbc.edu> shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu (Eliot Shimoff) writes:
>In article <1992Jul24.071839.29730@midway.uchicago.edu> rivk@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>
>>Aside from the question of those parents who want their kids to get "a
>>little bit" of Jewish education, there's the question of what kind of
>>Jewish education they want their kids to get. If there were a Reform
>>yeshiva in the vicinity, I would probably send my kids there full-time;
>>and my parents did send me to our synagogue's day school when I was
>>young, on the same principle. But I would teach my children myself
>>rather than send them to an Orthodox *anything*; I have about the same
>>degree of appreciation for and agreement with Orthodox religious the-
>>ory as I do for Christianity, and I wouldn't let my kids grow up being
>>trained by either one.

>Your antipathy towards Orthodoxy is tragic, and, so far as I can
>tell, would not be acceptable to either Conservative or Reform
>movements:  you appreciate Orthodoxy as much as Christianity!?!?!?

Not at all. I simply think that both are inaccurate. As I said in another
article, that Christianity is the greater of two evils is not in question,
but I don't have to pick between two evils, so I choose something different
altogether.

>So send your kids to a Reform or Conservative day  school.  But if
>you're serious about Jewish education, don't write "If there were
>a Reform yeshiva in the vicinity."  People who are serious about
>Jewish education simply would not live in a community that did not
>have appropriate Jewish educational facilities.

I beg your pardon; by the time I have kids, I plan to be living in
Israel, and I know how small the Reform and Conservative movements
there are, so it would not necessarily surprise me if I could not
find a Reform or Conservative day school there. If you want to think
that aliyah is an indication of someone not being serious about Jewish
education, go ahead, but you'll get laughed at; otherwise, don't jump
to conclusions.

>Eliot Shimoff       

	-Nora
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: shimoff@umbc4.umbc.edu (Eliot Shimoff)
Subject: Re: O-C-R debate
Organization: University of Maryland Baltimore Campus, Academic Computing Services
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 18:17:10 GMT

In article <dfs.711993117@ro> dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll) writes:

>
>I grew up in St. John's, Newfoundland, where there were probably 20
>Jewish kids in the whole city.  We were lucky to get a rabbi to come,
>let alone hope for a day school.  ("Looxury, me son... " :-))
>Ironically, I think that being the only Jewish kid for miles probably
>strengthened my Jewish identity and commitment rather than weakening
>it.  I guess different people react in different ways.

Yup, people react differently.  But the rate of assimilation and 
intermarriage in isolated Jewish communities is so high that you've
got to admit that you were the exception rather than the rule. 



>For me, it's a matter of economics, and to a certain extent,
>principle.  I would hesitate to send my kids (if and when I have any)
>to a Jewish day school because I want them to have contact with other
>people of different races and religions.
>

Given our (my wife and moi's) educational expectations, it was clear
that only a day school could do the job.  But consider the cost-benefit-
risk analysis.  How likely is it that public-school+Hebrew-school
will provide an adequate Jewish education?  How likely is it that
a day-school education will make it impossible for a kid to interact
with kids of other races/religions?  What are the costs andd probabilities
of either type of error?

Twenty years ago, when relatively few Jewish kids attended day schools,
lots of parents figured that public school plus the home atmosphere
would be enough to ensure that the kids would maintain the parents'
religious commitment.  There is an adjective appropriate to describe
many of those people: heart-broken.  They guessed wrong, and they see
their grandchildren wandering from the path that they (the grandparents)
cherish.  My heart goes out to them, but I cannot help them.




-- 
Eliot Shimoff                  |    n   n   n
   shimoff@umbc3.umbc.edu      |   X + Y = Z .  Easy to prove no solutions
Ashamnu, bagadnu, gazalnu ...  |   for n greater than 2.  Darn.  Can't fit
Better luck next year!         |   it into this little .sig file.  Oh well.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: Re: NYT OpEd: Black Demagogues and Pseudo-Scholars
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 23:30:12 GMT


   Several responses to my comments on the Gates editorial assert
that I do not have a clear picture of Jesse Jackson.  It has been
said that I am being unfair to Jackson.  But there is more to the
notion that Jackson is not so concerned about anti-semitism as he
would have us believe, than simply his famous "hymie" remarks.
   Jackson has made no attempt to distance himself from the likes
of Louis Farrakhan.  He has never denounced Farrakhan for his Jew 
hatred.  This could be for one of a number of reasons.  It may be
that Jackson does not think of Farrakhan as a Jew hater.  Jackson
may not believe that his friendship with one such as Farrakhan is
going to taint his image as an enemy of bigotry.  And maybe it is
simply that Jackson is still posturing, and we Jews are hoping to
see something that really does not exist.
   Another reason that I believe Jackson is merely posturing is a
complete absence of ANY comment on the magnificent achievement of
saving thousands of Jews in Ethiopia from certain starvation.  He
must realize that this was one of the most remarkable rescue jobs
of all time, and yet he was silent, as was every African American
leader.  Even though those rescued were African, he said nothing.
Perhaps he did not want to upset one of his other friends, who is
even less friendly to Jews than Louis Farrakhan.
   Jesse Jackson is a personal friend of Yassar Arafat.  While it
is bad enough that he is friendly with Farrakhan, to befriend one
such as Arafat is intolerable.  Arafat, as recently as this year,
as called on Palestinians to kill Jews(not specific Jews, but any
Jews!) anywhere.  
   If Jackson is so down on anti-semitism, he has to do more than
make a speech to two to convince me. 
-- 
"The tree of liberty must occasionally be nourished by the blood
of tyrants and of patriots."                    Thomas Jefferson
"Hello? Information?  Would you please give me the home phone of
Pat Buchanan?...Yes.  His address as well, thank you very much."
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Subject: Ya'amod/Ya'amdu (was Re: Inheritance of Jewish Identity from...)
Organization: NetNews Readers Anonymous
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 13:02:33 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.030441.18064@cbnews.cb.att.com>
ask@cbnews.cb.att.com (Arthur S. Kamlet) writes:

>In article <2294@israel.nysernet.org> warren@nysernet.org writes:

>>where the Gabbaim know how to speak Hebrew correctly, but I do think
>>that in the past I've heard yaamod followed by two job descriptions.

>Of course, in the distant - real distant past, one person performed
>both jobs, making the yaamod's easier :^)

And in the not-so-distant present, I suppose it would still be possible
for one person to do both jobs, especially when working with a Sephardic
scroll that comes in those hardwood, ornately decorated cases.
-- 
Sam Saal      homxb!saal OR saal@homxb.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish