HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jahn@guinness.Idbsu.EDU (Greg Jahn)
Subject: Re: Abbey bashing.  Was: Trip rpt: SE Utah 4wd vacation, part 3/4
Reply-To: jahn@guinness.idbsu.edu
Organization: BSU - Data Center
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 21:38:16 GMT

In article <Nov17.162828.53951@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>,
 trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna) writes:
|>In article <1992Nov17.140235.29055@porthos.cc.bellcore.com>
|>> mpb@troy.cc.bellcore.com (bunz,marcus p) writes:
  [to grossly summarize, marcus says no population problem,
    wayne says yes there is ...]

An appropriate quote from Ed, that I found frmo this group, I believe
from a character in Fire on the Mountain????

"I figure in 40 years, civilization will collapse and everything will
be back to normal."  John Vogelin


--
Greg Jahn Boise State Univ.|>>>>>>>Official Disclaimer <<<<<<<<<<<<
/ jahn@guinness.idbsu.edu /|" Only the names here are fictitious.
/ dosjahn@idbsu.bitnet    /|  The story, unfortunately, is
/ (208)385-3891.thephone  /|  absolutely true. " - Joseph Brodesky

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: mikeq@freddy.CNA.TEK.COM (Mike Quigley)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: The overpopulation problem. NOT!
Date: 19 Nov 92 19:14:44 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Redmond,  OR.

The way I heard it: No matter how hard you try, or what your faith,
you still can't cram 6 pounds of shit into a 5 pound bag!

Mike
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: dencisco@eos.arc.nasa.gov (David Paul Encisco)
Subject: Re: Want recommendations for 1-man tents, bivvy sacs
Organization: NASA Ames Research Center
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 18:27:41 GMT

jhhardy@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (J. Hardy) writes:
>>lg61e2INN3np@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> avv@primo.Eng.Sun.COM (Vince Vasquez)
>>I'm looking for recommendations for 1-man tents and bivvy sacs.
>>Antonio

Depends on how much you're willing to spend and how often you'll
use it. I do the majority of my packing alone.

I have a Marmot Bivy (no longer available) which I use exclusively
during the warm late July to Mid September California months. I
hate getting stuck in the thing for any length of time (an entire
day of rain will drive you crazy!). I also have the Walrus Swift.
I personally can't say anything good about this tent. I got it
free from Walrus so I shouldn't complain, well so much for that!
There's only a couple of Walrus tents I would consider buying (but
they're heavy tents).

If you're interest in a Bivy bag I'd look at Feathered Friends.
If you have some $$ take a look at the Bibler Solo Dome (3 lbs)
or the Stephenson 2R (I can give you the address if you're interested...
zany catalog!). Both these tents are four season types.

If you don't have a lot of money to spend; you backpack mostly in the
summer, and you really don't go alone that often, just get the North
Face Mayfly when it's on sale. It should serve you well. 

>The Sierra Designs Half-moon is billed as a two person tent but its weight
>makes it feasible for a solo tent also.

Not a bad tent for one, but the door is poorly situated for a middle
of the night bladder call.

>I got the SD cuz I was just starting up a relationship and didn't know
>whethere i would continue doing solo stuff as a rule.  I figured the SD was
>light enough to carry solo but comfortable enough to make long trips with 
>two ppl more enjoyable.

Jim brings up a good point: you never know when you'll find a partner
who likes backpacking. My gal likes to hike to a lake and hang for awhile...
so that's where I leave her.

Dave
From: greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: FIRST-AIDS KITS
Date: 19 Nov 1992 17:23:50 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: antizen.ebay.sun.com

>Realistically, most major-league medical emergencies cannot be effectively
>treated in a wilderness situations.  The best you can realistically hope for
>is to make sure no additional damage is done while waiting for rescue.
>Something to think about when you're heading to some secret place.


Again, this depends on your level of training and commitment....

Greg



Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna)
Subject: Re: Abbey bashing.  Was: Trip rpt: SE Utah 4wd vacation, part 3/4
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 16:28:28 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department

In article <1992Nov17.140235.29055@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> mpb@troy.cc.bellcore.com (bunz,marcus p) writes:
>
>While I'll agree that the days of having 10 & 12 children are long gone,
>due to the fact that most of them will survive to adulthood and reproduce
>(no true that very long ago, in the whole scheme of things). I don't
>think that limiting people to one or even two children would be good
>in the US.  If I'm not mistaken, the population of the US has been
>flat or declining slightly, if you exclude emigrants.

Ah, statistics.  If you exclude this, tweak that, invert this, and
normalize that you'll see the population is really declining, the
economic future is bright, and the sun rises in the west.  Wake up!
Look around you.  How big was your home town twenty years ago and
how big is it now?

Two fallacies are conveyed here:

	1) There is no problem.
	2) It's not a problem of the middle class white folks, but of the poor
	   uneducated non-white folks.


>It will also be a tough
>job conviencing people that they don't need lots of children where
>the life style is subsistance farming, how do you convience them that
>they will be cared for if they could live longer than they could take
>care of themselves on their own.

Their subsistance life style will end when they sell their land to a 
middle class white guy so he can build his vacation home on it.


-- 

-Wayne Trzyna
 trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU
From: jbl@mesaadm.cre.nt.com (JB)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: other bashing.
Date: 16 Nov 92 12:53:22 GMT
Organization: NT/BNR
X-Xxdate: Mon, 16 Nov 92 07:53:08 GMT
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d9

In article <1992Nov13.221319.4902@nas.nasa.gov> Eugene N. Miya,
eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov writes:
>	various deleted

To add, (for north country and us paddling types):
Sigeurd (sp?) Olsen
Bill Mason


***************************************************************
**** Laissez le bontemps rouler ****  JB  *  no e-mail address *
***************************************************************
From: cworth@OAVAX.CSUCHICO.EDU (CHUCK WORTH)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Abbey bashing.  Was: Trip rpt: SE Utah 4wd vacation, part 3/4
Date: 17 Nov 92 20:20:01 GMT
Reply-To: cworth@OAVAX.CSUCHICO.EDU
Distribution: na
Organization: California State University, Chico
NNTP-Posting-Host: oavax.csuchico.edu

In article: watson@pioneer.arc.nasa.gov (John S. Watson - FSC) writes:
>Although I forget the numbers, the U.S. population is  pretty fast
>for me at least.  I thinks it's doubled since I've been alive 
>(from 130 million around 1960 to around 260 million today).
>
 John, I'm disappointed; I've come to trust your veracity too much I'm afraid.
 The population of the U.S. was 179,323,175 in April 1960, and,
                            was 248,709,873 in April 1990.
 (Source: Bureau of the Census: found in __The World Almanac: 1992__)
 The U.S. population *did* double between 1930 and 1990.
                                    Regards, Chuck

**********************************************************
 Chuck Worth            California State University, Chico
 CWORTH@OAVAX.CSUCHICO.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: jeffk@dosXX.med.utah.edu (Jeff Knell)
Subject: Multiplying in the Backcountry (kids/population)
Organization: Department of Genetics, University of Utah
	<1992Nov17.140235.29055@porthos.cc.bellcore.com>
Distribution: na
Date: 17 Nov 92 10:32:07

   << ...discussion about having fewer children ...>>

<   While I'll agree that the days of having 10 & 12 children are long gone,
<   due to the fact that most of them will survive to adulthood and reproduce
<   (no true that very long ago, in the whole scheme of things). I don't
<   think that limiting people to one or even two children would be good
<   in the US.  If I'm not mistaken, the population of the US has been
<   flat or declining slightly, if you exclude emigrants. ...
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
<   Marc

I do not have the statistics in front of me,
buy it is my understanding that the population
of the US, while not growing at third world rates,
is again growing rapidly.

I believe that for a short time (70's ?) the
growth rate was near zero, but the mating
habits of the baby boomers have change that.

Anyone out there have the numbers?


jeff

feitctaj
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: hamel@athena.cs.uga.edu (Scott Hamel)
Subject: Trip suggestion for Great Smoky Mtn
Organization: University of Georgia, Athens
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 18:54:23 GMT

I'm planning a 3-5 day trip to Great Smoky Mountain National Park over 
Thanksgiving, and would like to know if anyone on the net has a 
particularly nice loop or other route they might like to share.  I have
not been to the Smokies before, although the person I am going with has.
However, he is not that familiar with the area either.

We both regularly lead backpacking trips with the University of Georgia
Outdoor Recreation Program (GORP), so we are in fairly good shape.  We
would prefer to stay away from the crowds and travel instead on the 
lesser known trails.  Living in a college town, we see enough people during
the week as is!

We are trying to iron out our plans, but don't have a set route yet.  We
are using the input of others to our advantage, though, so any input or
suggestions would be *GREATLY* appreciated.

By the way, I spent last weekend at Cumberland Island, GA (4th time) and it
was magnificent.  Weather was a perfect 70 degrees, and the wildlife was out
in force (wild hogs, boar, snakes, raccoons, deer, horses, armadillo, turkey,
just to name a few).  It is always a nice place to camp.
-- 
Scott M. Hamel                                   hamel@athena.cs.uga.edu
University Computing & Networking Services       shamel@uga.cc.uga.edu
University of Georgia - Athens, Ga. 30602
****  "Drink!  For you know not whence you came, nor why;  ***************    
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna)
Subject: Re: Backcountry Crowding
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 18:18:51 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department

In article <1992Nov22.194905.9737@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu> gopal@astro.as.arizona.edu (Gopal Narayanan) writes:
>In article <1992Nov22.161127.11177@inmet.camb.inmet.com> daf@inmet.camb.inmet.com (Tony Flanders) writes:
>>I have been following the various threads on population growth and its
>>effect on the backcountry with some interest and some anger.
>>
>>Yes, backcountry in the U.S. has become much more crowded in the last few
>>decades.  Whether it is has become *too* crowded is a matter of opinion,
>>but the increase is a matter of record.  Very little of the increase in
>>backcountry use is due to population growth.  Between 1960 and 1990, the
>>U.S. population increased from 180,000,000 to 250,000,000.  A 40% increase --
>>nothing to sneeze at.  But if backcountry use were 40% greater than in 1960,
>>people would hardly have noticed.  I don't have access to any figures,
>>but I guess that the increase has been closer to 5-fold.
>
>...much cutting of a long but excellent post(IMO) to save BW..
>
>Finally, we hear a more rational point of view in this divided, often 
>vitriolic thread in r.b. I come from a country where the population is getting
>close to a billion. But if you do go out to the wilderness (at least whatever
>that remains) you CAN completely get away from it all. I attribute it to the 
>fact that in India there are no good roads, campgrounds, the social setup, good
>gear and leisure time for a mass onslaught on the backcountry as it is in
>this country. I think THIS is the major reason why it is harder to get away
>from people in all your once-favorite haunts. To attribute it all to a
>catastrophic increase in population and advocate mass extermination (:-))
>or to put the blame on immigration is totally irrational. I think anybody 
>would admit most of the increase in influx into backcountry in recent times
>is from newly converted yuppies than from poor immigrants who are fighting 
>to make a livelihood in some inner city ghetto.

Population growth is a serious environmental problem, both on the national
and global level.  You are correct that population is not the main factor
in recent increases in backcountry use.  But population growth represents
the biggest threat to wild lands (not to mention quality of life in general.)
If we don't, for instance, drill for oil in the Alaskan Wildlife Refuge today,
we are simply putting it off until tomorrow.  Do you think wilderness
protections will survive vis-a-vis millions of starving Americans?

>Thanks for adding a touch of reality to this whole arguement.

Notwithstanding the fact that your appreciation isn't at all directed at
me, given the "touch of reality" clause, I have to say, You're Welcome!

>But shortsightedness and racial hatred and bickering is not the 
>solution.

Racial hatred won't solve global problems.


-- 

-Wayne Trzyna
 trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: "Michael Smith" <p00004@psilink.com>
Subject: Re: uncontrolable tongues!!
Organization: Performance Systems Int'l
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 14:52:44 GMT
X-Mailer: PSILink (3.2)

>DATE:   17 Nov 92 18:28:00 GMT
>FROM:   jen <v100mfha@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu>
> HOW TO KEEP THE TONGUES OF MY BOOTS IN THE 
>CENTER, INSTEAD OF SLIPPING OFF TO THE SIDE.

It's the "caps lock" key. Notoriously causes boot tongues to slip. This 
should be in the FAQ.
From: tucker@shiva.edsg.hac.com (George Tucker)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: USFS Backcountry Fees
Date: 18 Nov 92 18:39:12 GMT
Reply-To: tucker@shiva.UUCP (George Tucker)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Hughes Aircraft Co., El Segundo, CA

In article <1ecdfjINNn00@morrow.stanford.edu> HF.MMS@forsythe.stanford.edu (Mark Skubik) writes:
>
>Part of the usage fee suggestion proposed gradation between
>day use, overnight, extended and seasonal use fees.  A $25
>seasonal pass was floated.  What they didn't say was if the
>seasonal pass would be good for any and all areas within a
>class, e.g., a Wilderness Area Pass, or a National Forest

Consider the Golden Eagle pass from the Park Service.  Entrance
to all parks for a year for $25.  At Carlsbad Caverns, it costs 
nothing to enter the park, but $6 to enter the cave.  Does the
Golden Eagle cover that?  Of course not.  That's not an
"entrance fee", but a "service charge" or something of the sort.

The Forest Service does provide emergency services and information,
etc., so a small fee is justified.  It isn't going to reduce logging,
though, unless they see a profit from hikers in logging areas.

	 George Tucker        tucker@shiva.hac.com
	Signature line awaiting FDA approval.

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna)
Subject: Correction
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 21:43:05 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department


I misquoted some statistics from the Denver Post yesterday.  The correct
statistics are as follows:

Area (sqare miles)             1960             1990
------------------             ----             ----
Denver                          249              500
Colorado Springs                 16              181
Fort Collins                      6               24

Note the figures for Colorado Springs, where I grew up.  This explains why
I get severely depressed every time I return there to visit. 

-- 

-Wayne Trzyna
 trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU


-- 

-Wayne Trzyna
 trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU
From: greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: FIRST-AIDS KITS
Date: 16 Nov 1992 23:36:13 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: antizen.ebay.sun.com

In article 23154@nmsu.edu, lstarrit@dante.nmsu.edu (Larry Way Starritt) writes:
> 
> I would like suggestions on what should be in a Backpacker's
> first-aid kit.
> 
> Thanks
> Larry
> lstarrit@nmsu.edu



Hiya Larry....

WHat you put in your first aid kit first depends on your level of 
training in first aid/medicine.

There are many wilderness medicine books on the market, most by 
MD's who are very involved with wilderness medicine. However, the
camp is split when it comes to first aid kits.

Some authors advocate taking a considerable amount of equipment,
enough in fact to constitute a seperate pack just for medical.
Needless to say, very few backpackers would ever carry this much
extra weight.

The book, Medicine for the Backcountry has a list of the minimum
items one should not be without and there is an emphasis on everyday
items that can be used in improvisation, such as plastic garbage bags.

It is my personal opinion however that there is a great misunderstanding
about first aid outside of the reach of 911....

It's not what's in your first aid kit that will save a life, it's what's
in your head....

Greg



Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna)
Subject: Re: Multiplying in the Backcountry (kids/population)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 17:57:06 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department

In article <10797@vice.ICO.TEK.COM> hall@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Hal F Lillywhite) writes:
>In article <Nov18.214814.69046@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna) writes:
>
>>The world population has been growing monotonically since day one of
>>human history.  How is this a short term question?  I think we are
>>over-analyzing.
>
>Wayne, your zeal is commendable but I'm afraid in this case it is
>not matched by your knowledge.  Your statement above is quite wrong.
>World population has not grown monotonically but has fluctuated up
>and down (albiet with a generally upward trend).  Visit a library
>and read the "Population" article in Britannica's _Macropedea_.
>Among other things you will find there a graph of world population
>over about the last 8000 years.  It oscillates about a slowly
>increasing trend until the advent of the plague when it takes a
>sharp downturn.  Thereafter it takes an even sharper upturn with 
>the industrial revolution.
>
>Of more value in terms of long term population growth, you will find
>another graph showing birth and death rates for developed and
>undeveloped countries.  The area between the birth and death lines
>represents population growth.  Undeveloped countries continue to
>have large positive growth rates.  However in the developed
>countries the birth rate is dropping rapidly.  The 1985 date of this
>publication still shows a positive growth for developed countries
>but a simple extrapolation shows what our 1990 census already told
>us:  Death rate now exceeds birth rate, at least in the U.S. (and I
>suspect in Western Europe as well).
>
>>The point I'm trying to make is that it is our problem no matter who's
>>fault it is.  It's a lot easier to worry about recycling aluminum cans,
>>and stay oblivious to the fact that a billion more people will be added
>>to the population in the next 10 years.
>
>Right.  And it's easier to pontificate about how everyone should 
>have fewer children than to examine the available data to determine 
>how to motivate them to do so.  Obviously something in developed
>countries leads to a lower birth rate and that something is missing
>in undeveloped countries.  We've said it before here, to lower the
>birth rate:
>
>1.  Provide convenient means of contraception, and
>
>2.  Assure a good chance of survival for children which are born, or
>provide other means for parents to be supported in there old age so
>they won't have to have a lot of children to support them.
>
>If you want to reduce the birth rate, forget the preaching and worry
>about economics.


-- 

-Wayne Trzyna
 trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU
From: jeffg@loki.esd.sgi.com (Jeff C. Glover)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry,sci.environment,talk.environment,alt.wolves
Subject: Re: Alaska to shoot hundreds of wolves from airplanes
Date: 21 Nov 1992 03:40:33 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc., Mountain View, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: loki.esd.sgi.com

In article <1ek28iINNc0s@hpscdf.scd.hp.com> sommer@scd.hp.com (Jeremy Sommer) writes:
>cvakgaaq@vmsb.is.csupomona.edu wrote:
>:...
>: 	The funny thing about this is that in the next few centuries the
>: populations in the North will decrease because the treeline is rapidly moving
>: south in response to Global cooling caused by the Milankovitch cycle. The
>                                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>                                                    what is this???

The Milankovitch cycle hypothesis holds that variations in the earth's
orbit are responsible for period of glacial advance and retreat.

Jeff
jeffg@sgi.com
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry,sci.environment,talk.environment,alt.wolves
From: rbw3q@rayleigh.mech.Virginia.EDU (Brad Whitehurst)
Subject: Re: Alaska to shoot hundreds of wolves from airplanes
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 22:35:11 GMT

In article <1992Nov20.183713.25800@news.arc.nasa.gov> watson@pioneer.arc.nasa.gov (John S. Watson - FSC) writes:
>[sorry for any typos]
>
>New York Times  
>
>Anchorage, Alaska ---
>
>Trying to tip the balance of nature in favor of the moose and caribous,
>wildlife officials have decided to start shooting wolves from airplanes 
>over a huge portion of the Alaska wilderness.
>
>By reducing the number of wolves that prey on big-game animals, 
>Alaska wildlife officials hope to produce a bounty for hunters 
>and tourists.
>
>'A wildlife spectacle'
>
>"We feel we are going to create a wildlife spectacle
>on a par with the major migrations in East Africa,"
>said David Kelleyhouse, director of the Division of
>Wildlife Conservation.  "Mom and pop from Syracuse can
>come up here and see something that they can't see anywhere 
>else on Earth."  
>
	#@@!$%*&^!!!!  I thought Alaska was over this stupidity!  I
saw an article in our paper as well this morning.  Grrr.
	If I remember correctly, some 10 years or so ago, Alaska had a
policy of shooting wolves from planes and helicopters, under pressure
from the hunting lobby (and others) to try increasing the prey
population.  I recall that there was a decline in some herd numbers at
the time.  Many people felt it was part of natural cycles...hard
winters and such...but wolves got the blame from the hunt lobby.  I
thought vigorous pressure and adverse PR had put the kibosh on it, but
it seems to have sprung up again.
	Does anyone out there in netland know of any organized
pressure against it, or have snailmail or email addresses appropriate
for inundation with protests?  I may not live in Alaska, but we all
have a stake in this!  

Brad Whitehurst
-- 

Brad Whitehurst    |   Aerospace Research Lab
rbw3q@Virginia.EDU |   We like it hot...and fast.
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna)
Subject: Re: The overpopulation problem
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 19:08:26 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department

In article <3920@master.CNA.TEK.COM> mikeq@freddy.CNA.TEK.COM writes:
>This controversy doesn't belong in rec.backcountry. Besides, nature
>will level the human overpopulation problem in its own way, 
>in due time.

To the contrary, it is the most important issue facing the future
of "backcountry."  Those who've seen their favorite backcountry
haunts ruined or being ruined understand the import.

-- 

-Wayne Trzyna
 trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry,sci.environment,talk.environment,alt.wolves