From: benedejc@husc10.harvard.edu (Andrej Benedejcic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Crookedness
Date: 7 Apr 92 03:43:22 GMT
 <1992Apr5.144039.10722@husc3.harvard.edu> <1992Apr6.201537.23975@watdragon.waterloo.edu>
Organization: Harvard University Science Center

In article <1992Apr6.201537.23975@watdragon.waterloo.edu> abrodnik@watdragon.waterloo.edu (Andrej Brodnik (Andy)) writes:
>In article <1992Apr5.144039.10722@husc3.harvard.edu> benedejc@husc10.harvard.edu (Andrej Benedejcic) writes:
>>
>>Are you sure?  As far as I know, each word in "Slovenski pravopis" has its
>>own "number."  If the number is equal to "0", then you cannot use that 
>>particular word in writting. 
>
>But all these numbers have no obvious connection with claims you've
>made above. They might be behind those numbers, but they were never
>written down, were they?
>

Oh, come on now, Andrej!  You can't convince me that it is appropriate
to use a word like "hohstapler" in writing just because a "Mladina" 
journalist, who holds a master's degree in comparative linguistics (or 
whatever), decided to put it in one of his articles.

>>
>>Despite his interesting articles, Nezmah is in no position to start redefining
>>the Slovene grammar.  Also, it should be noted that in the issue of "Mladina"
>>you are referring to, Mr. Nezmah started an argument with one of the 
>>biggest authorities and scholars of Slovene language.  I really don't know 
>>what is he trying to prove to himself or to others by doing that.          
>
>He is as much in position as any other linguist, i.e. as much as
>authority you are referring to. I don't see a reason why should I
>believe that authority more than Mr.X or Mr.Nezmah or my own
>reasoning. To conclude -- I don't believe in arguments only because
>they were given by some authority.

Yes, yes!  I've heard such arguments before!  And I do not agree with them!
For instance, Mr. Peterle, our current prime minister (dear God, why do you
hate us so much?) supposedly spent two years at the Department of
Economics of the Ljubljana University.  According to some people, that
makes him qualified to dabble in and experiment with our economy.  Well,
I just don't buy this crap!  The fact that Lojze spent two years studying  
economics doesn't make him a professional economist--it just makes him
an educated charlatan.  If you don't belive me, you can check the most
recent analysis of our economy's performance in "Mladina."

In the same sense, the fact that Mr. Nezmah holds a master's degree 
in sociology and linguistics simply does not make him qualified to make
authoritative statements about our language and its grammar. 

>>No, "jezero" is not of Hungarian origin.  Since I am fluent in Russian, I can
>>assure you that the Russian word for lake is "ozjero" (as in "Balkajskoje
>>ozjero").  So, we're talking about a word of common Slavic origin.  As far
>>as "kri\v{z}" is concerned, I must confess that you really got me with that
>>esoteric writing code of yours.  Did you have in mind "krizz"?
>
>Regarding "jezero" and its menaning in other Slavic languages I have
>to admit that I know as well (happened to be that I learned Russian as
>well), but in second (third) book "Slovenski jezik" (?) by Dr.Joze
>Toporisic, he mentions something about thousand in Hungarian with
>connection toward "jezero". I might be wrong about the details, but
>the general background is such.

Serjozno?  Ty toze gavaris pa-russki?  Nu, jesli eto dejstvitel'no tak,
to ja tebja ot vsej dusi pazdravljaju!

(Don't you find reading the beautiful Russian language in transliteration
simply appaling?)

>
>About kriz, yes I'm referring to the word which is symbol of
>Christians, it was (again Dr.Toporisic) taken from Latin "crux,
>crucis". Again, I might be wrong about details.

So what?  Even if it is of Latin origin, what does that prove?  Does that
mean that we should start cluttering our language (which is one of the
most archaic Slavic languages around) with all kinds of ugly and unnecessary
borrowings from German?       

>
>But in any case It does not matter if we argue about these two words,
>as there are other examples as well.

Of course there are examples of words which are of foreign origin.  But,
please, remember, that the modern Slovene language is a product of decades
of efforts on the part of our writers and poets to cleanse it from both
the German borrowings and German syntax.

>
>>Anyway, the point that I was trying to make is not that Slovenes should be
>>using only words of certified Slovene (or Old Slavic) origin.  My point was
>>that ugly, bastardized versions of German expressions (like "hohstapler") cannot
>>be used in writing!  In fact, I am pretty sure that had I used a word like
>>that in any of my PRIMARY school essays, my teacher of Slovene language
>>would have immediately reduced my grade by one degree (i.e., from 5 to 4).
>>The correct expression that Mr. Nezmah should have used is "nadutost,"
>>"oholost,""osabnost," etc. . . .  (Obviously, there is a host of perfectly
>>nice Slovene words he could have used in his writing . . .)
>
>Why? Are you the authority who will impose on him how he will express
>his thoughts? What if "hohstapler" has a tiny different conotation
>than any of the above words you listed? Beside this, I believe he put
>the word in quotes, so your teacher wouldn't take off your marks as
>well.

As far as I can remember, Mr. Nezmah did not put quotation marks around that
word.  And, no, I don't believe that my teacher would have accepted such
an ugly German expression even if she had found it within quotation marks.
Why?  Well, the best thing I can do is to refer you to Preseren's "Poezije"
where you can find a number of convincing poems (all of which are writen
in beautiful Slovene) where our greatest poet tells us why our language
should be full of our own words instead of some foreign crap.

>>
>>Well, you might be right about that.  But the fact of the matter is that I
>>heard the expression "hohstapler" by a freak accident barely two years ago.  At
>>first I didn't know what to make of it and when my mother provided me with
>>a "translation" I just couldn't stop wondering about my parents' generation 
>>who actually used such expressions, despite all those poems by Preseren in 
>>which he ridiculed all the small-minded people who keep using "big" foreign
>>words to alleviate their feelings of inferiority.
>
>And how would you name software or hardware, or floppy and hard disc
>in Slovene? How would you name aristocracy? Big foreign words or are
>you alleviating your feelings of inferiority?

software = programska oprema
hardware = racunalniska oprema
floppy disk = mehki disk
hard disk = trdi disk
aristocracy = plemstvo 

Nope, no feelings of inferiority in front of this 
computer screen (= racunalniski zaslon)! 

>
>LPA
>
>PS: And to re-emphasize, I think there were quotes around
>"hohstapler".

As I said before, I seriously doubt that.  But, then, I might be wrong.


Regards,

Andrej
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia