HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: il@bambam.u.washington.edu (Il Hwan Oh)
Subject: Re: music censorship in WA state now in effect
Keywords: fascist censorship (shudder!)
Reply-To: iho@cac.washington.edu
Organization: University of Washington, Tacoma
Distribution: seattle
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 02:34:21 GMT

nanook@eskimo.celestial.com (Robert Dinse) writes:
> il@bambam.u.washington.edu (Il Hwan Oh) writes:

> > At the risk of being branded a fascist, I'm gonna have to play devil's
> > advocate here.  What this lady wanted was to try to control what her kids
> > listen to.  If you feel your children can listen to a given CD or whatever,
> > you can buy it for them.  This lady merely felt that things that were out
> > of her control were influencing her children, and she did what she thought
> > was the best thing for her children.  We're not talking about a universal
> > ban here.
> 
>      I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO GO BUY IT FOR THEM!  If she doesn't want her children
> to listen to this music then it should be HER responsibility to prevent them
> from doing so.  WHY IN THE HELL CAN'T PEOPLE TAKE ANY RESPONSIBILITY FOR
> THEIR OWN LIVES ANYMORE?

This is exactly what she did.  She's prevented her children from buying
albums she doesn't approve of.  The fact that other children in the state
can't buy them either is merely an unfortunate (depending on your view of
the matter) side-effect.

-- 
Il Hwan Oh                    | "A university is a place where people pay
Computer Facilities Manager   | high prices for goods which they then
Univ. of Washington, Tacoma   | proceed to leave on the counter when
iho@cac.washington.edu        | they go out of the store." -- Loren Eisley
Newsgroups: seattle.general
From: robs@bcstec.boeing.com (Robert Sipe)
Newsgroups: seattle.general
Subject: KING 5 and others
Date: 6 Apr 92 18:08:05 GMT
Distribution: seattle
Organization: Boeing

I have become so disinterested in the news reports that the local news
stations have been putting out that I have virtually quit watching them.
Even the national morning news shows like Good Morning America and the
rest have become uninteresting and slanted politically.  I personally
take a traditional, conservative view of politics and society.  I feel
Ken Schram takes the cake when it comes to commentaries.  Usually, I won't
even bother with his shows any more.  I think the cable news networks
add spoofing network news really hits the point.  It is my opinion that 
much of the established local and national news shows are out of touch
with the rest of the nation.
From: nanook@eskimo.celestial.com (Robert Dinse)
Newsgroups: seattle.general
Subject: Re: music censorship in WA state now in effect
Summary: Parents Wishes
Keywords: fascist censorship (shudder!)
Date: 13 Apr 92 21:48:06 GMT
Distribution: seattle
Organization: <<< ESKIMO NORTH (206)-FOR-EVER >>>

In article <1992Apr13.045827.5425@mdd.comm.mot.com>, gilbert@mdd.comm.mot.com (John Gilbert) writes:
> In article <1992Apr12.081516.23566@u.washington.edu> il@bambam.u.washington.edu (Il Hwan Oh) writes:
> 
> >>What is going on here is that you hold the same values as this lady in this
> >>case, so you are constructing arguments which sound generic that support her.
> >>Either that, or you agree with the grandma analogy.
> >
> >Actually, I do not hold the same values this lady does.  I doubt that
> >she and I hold a common opinion on too many issues.  I am normally
> >against censorship, but I think this is a special case.  This applies
> >only to children and I believe we need to support the parents' wishes
> >on this.
> 
> Uh, which parents' wishes?  The small group that lobbied for the law?  Why?
> How about my wishes.  I am a parent.  And I think here we can show lot's of 
> other parents' feel this was wrong.

     I am also a parent of three, and I certainly do not agree with this woman
or the new music censorship law.  While I can't agree with the suggestion that
we go spray obscenties on her house, I certainly understand the anger that
Kurt feels.

     I feel that my rights as a parent to raise my children in the manner I
see fit have been usurped by this woman, and that she had ABSOLUTELY NO
RIGHT to do so.  I also feel that she is more interested in all the publicity
she is getting then what she actually did, and it's also obvious that she
doesn't give a damn for the opinions of those that don't happen to agree with
her.

     Her reproduction of the song lyrics does not sway me,  if that's
supposed to be shocking, she's got a long way to go.  You want shocking,
Jeffrey Domer is shocking, the person that shot the kids on the playground
a while back is shocking, the idiot that drove his car through McDonalds
is shocking.  Stupid lyrics with the words asterisked out is merely in
poor taste at best, and taste is something I don't think should be mandated
by the legislature.

> You admitted earlier that you have not enough data on who is in the
> majority.  You have stated you believe we should act for the majority
> (I presume even on issues of thought, where "harm" is possibly non-existent,
> or certainly subjective).  Given these two facts alone I have trouble
> resolving the point your are trying to establish.

     I am sure that the Jews felt the "harm" in Nazi Germany was more than
"subjective", and definitely not non-existant.
From: Pete Gregory <pete@wvus.org>
Newsgroups: seattle.general
Subject: ASIX
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 92 7:25:24 PDT

Hi - has anyone heard of or dealt with ASIX?  ASIX is a Seattle-based
UNIX consulting firm who is interested in hiring me later this year.
They seem to have an untarnished reputation, but I'd appreciate any
comments that any of y'all might be able to share with me.

Thanks....

Pete Gregory       |  Internet: pete@wvus.org
UNIX SA            |  Bangpath: ames!elroy!wvus!pete
World Vision U.S.  |  Slowpath: 919 W. Huntington Dr., Monrovia, CA 91016

Hide! Hide!  The cow's outside!!
Newsgroups: seattle.general
From: Mark Crispin <mrc@marge.cac.washington.edu>
Subject: `Music censorship' issue
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Organization: University of Washington
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 23:01:00 GMT

     I guess I have to join the ranks of the `clueless' in this issue.  As I
understand the new law, it does not censor anything; nor does it prevent
adults from purchasing anything that they could previously purchase.  All the
law does is limit what minors can purchase.

     What is the point of the protest?  Is it that there should be no
limitations on the activities of minors?  Should minors be permitted to buy
tobacco and alcohol?  If minors should have all the privileges as adults, then
should they have the responsibilties as well?  If a 16-year-old commits a
brutal rape/murder, should he be subject to the death penalty?

     Maybe I'm missing the point again.  Perhaps it's a fear that limitations
on what minors can buy is a first step towards limitations on what adults can
buy.  If that's the case, I haven't heard that being made clear.

     I find it strange that the same sorts of people who protest against a
photographer soliticing models for "Playboy's Girls of the Pacific Northwest"
will leap to the defense of songs advocating violence against women.  I happen
to agree that neither cheesecake pictures nor dirty songs hurt people.  Still,
it is reasonable to assist parents in limiting their children's access to such
material.

     Is there some common ground in the middle?  Is it possible to have
freedom of choice for adults without destroying all controls on children?
Perhaps if the extremists on both the liberal and conservative sides would
shut up, the rest of us could create an acceptable compromise.
From: prang@ssc-vax.boeing.com (Ron Wanttaja)
Newsgroups: seattle.general
Subject: Following Orders (was Re: General Schwartzkopf)
Date: 10 Apr 92 07:35:02 GMT
Distribution: seattle
Organization: Boeing Defense and Space Group, Seattle WA

>Remember what the US said at Nuremburg? "I was just obeying orders" is
>no excuse for genocide.

You have your choice:

1.  You can have a military that follows the orders of the civilian
leadership; or,

2.  You can have a military that ignores the orders of the civilian
leadership.

I guess there's a third choice:  Not having a military at all.  But if that
were so, our references to "Nuremburg" would be more along the lines of
discussing the 60th anniversary Party rally, attended by Gaulieter David
Duke.

Blaming Schwartzkopf for alleged "excesses" in Kuwait is like blaming
Westinghouse for making Jeffery Dahlmer's refrigerator.

Ron Wanttaja
(prang@ssc-bee)
From: chuan@milton.u.washington.edu (Chuan Lee)
Newsgroups: seattle.general
Subject: Re: music censorship in WA state now in effect
Date: 7 Apr 92 08:08:14 GMT
Followup-To: chuan@milton.u.washington.edu
Distribution: seattle
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <1992Apr7.043045.7060@u.washington.edu> iho@cac.washington.edu writes:
>lamontg@milton.u.washington.edu (Lamont Granquist) writes:
>> il@bambam.u.washington.edu (Il Hwan Oh) writes:
>> >At the risk of being branded a fascist, I'm gonna have to play devil's
>> >advocate here.  What this lady wanted was to try to control what her kids
>> >listen to.  If you feel your children can listen to a given CD or whatever,
>> >you can buy it for them.  This lady merely felt that things that were out
>> >of her control were influencing her children
>
>> Awwwww, too bad.  She should wake up and realize that there are so many
>> things which are out of her control, that it would simply be better to teach
>> her children how to deal with them when they encounter them. 
>
>That's very nice in theory, but how do you propose to teach a 6-year
>old how to deal with everything he/she might possibly encounter in
>the world?  I think parents nowadays need all the help they can get.
>
>> >, and she did what she thought
>> >was the best thing for her children.
>> 
>> Thats nice.  I would've appreciated it if she would have done it without
>> our tax money though, and without inacting counter-productive legislation.
>
>How is this different from the existing rating system for movies?
>
>-- 
>Il Hwan Oh                    | "A university is a place where people pay
>Computer Facilities Manager   | high prices for goods which they then
>Univ. of Washington, Tacoma   | proceed to leave on the counter when
>iho@cac.washington.edu        | they go out of the store." -- Loren Eisley
>

I agree with >> >'s and >'s.

So what is the fuss about this "censorship"?  I wonder why was this law
being labelled "censorship" at the first place?  How can it be a censorship
if I can still buy the so-called censored record at the store, and that
its contents are as original as it was recorded?

Somehow my feeling is that those you-teach-your-kid-your-way-and-I-teach-
my-kid-my-way forks just don't want to be responsible for things they or
their kids do (more likely the former reason).  Do you think they care
about kids?  No, they just hate being held accountable for WHAT THEY DO
to the kids: sell them cigarettes, serve them liquor, lay a loaded gun
casually at home, etc.

Chuan Lee

"Try this!  I bet your mom didn't tell you how good this thing is.  Oh,
she did! (damn!) Well, how about this?  I bet ..."
Newsgroups: seattle.general
From: gilbert@mdd.comm.mot.com (John Gilbert)
Subject: Re: music censorship in WA state now in effect
Keywords: Confucian censorship (shudder!)
Organization: Motorola, Mobile Data Division - Seattle, WA
Distribution: seattle
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 23:55:48 GMT

In various articles iho@cac.washington.edu writes:

>In my opinion, that's what government is for: to force the values
>of the majority on the rest of the population.

>I'm dead serious here.  We can't all go around doing as we please.

You mean, if I want to go outside and shoot some hoops, I can't?
No of course you don't.

But let's take a look again at your first statement....

>    In my opinion, that's what government is for: to force the values
>    of the majority on the rest of the population.


So, can we presume that if enough people turn out and vote that we
all MUST be catholic, that the government's job is... what... to make
sure we all attend Mass on Sunday... that we all THINK like the Pope?

Your statement above leaves ZERO room for a minority opinion.
That is, if you are really talking about VALUES.

Also, you raised some points about "the way our majority governing
system works"... the typical claims about elected representatives.
Well, included in that system, which indeed permits elected bodies
make decisions as our representatives, is also the duty of those
officials to best interpret and represent their constituency.
That means when there is a public opinion, it should be heard and
evaluated with respect to the majority concept.

That is simply what is happening here, and what you seem to think
is unreasonable.

The point raised about majority opinion was not about the system.
There is serious question whether or not the governing body, in
this case, made a mistake in what it is representing as a majority
opinion.  There is a lot of negative noise about this issue.

Consider... do you recall the pilgrims?  Do you remember why they
left England?  Do you remember WHY they cam here?  It was to avoid
having beliefs foisted upon them.  They were not necissarily
a majority in England.  This country started to provide the
opportuinity for the practice of minority beliefs freely.

Basically, I disagree with your opinion of what the purpose of
government is, or should be.

John
-- 
John Gilbert
gilbert@mdd.comm.mot.com
...!uunet!mdisea!gilbert
Newsgroups: seattle.general
From: zintel@mdd.comm.mot.com (Mike Zintel)
Subject: Re: music censorship in WA state now in effect
Keywords: fascist censorship (shudder!)
Organization: Motorola, Mobile Data Division - Seattle, WA
Distribution: seattle
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1992 18:24:52 GMT

In article <1992Apr12.082901.24025@u.washington.edu> il@bambam.u.washington.edu (Il Hwan Oh) writes:
>Personally, no, I don't believe that majority will is always right.
>However, most of the time, it isn't that harmful.

Unless you are black, or jewish, or poor, or sick ...

-- 
-----
Mike Zintel            
zintel@mdd.comm.mot.com not zintel@mdi.com anymore
From: mckenzie@june.cs.washington.edu (Neil McKenzie)
Newsgroups: seattle.general
Subject: Re: NBC News report on Jerry Brown
Date: 10 Apr 92 00:34:52 GMT
Distribution: pnw
Organization: Computer Science & Engineering, U. of Washington, Seattle

Mark Crispin writes:
>Now, few rich conservatives can get too upset about a tax cut;
>however, they tend to prefer a period in which the rich get richer and
>the poor get richer (the Reagan years) than one in which the rich get
>richer and the poor get poorer (the Carter years).  Has anyone ever
>noticed that the statistics that claim that the 1980's were rotten all
have the 1980's starting in 1977?

I think you have it backwards.  The poor got much poorer during the Reagan
years than during the Carter years.  There was a Scientific American article
on the homeless a few years ago that states how much the homeless problem went
from nearly non-existent in 1980 to today's epidemic.

>Alexander Cockburn is a remarkable man; remarkable because he is so
>reliably wrong on so many issues.

Note: irony


-- 
--Neil McKenzie 	Internet:     mckenzie@june.cs.washington.edu
			UUCP:        ..!uw-beaver!uw-june!mckenzie

To be or not to be -- that is a tautology.
From: witters@tc.fluke.COM (John Witters)
Newsgroups: seattle.general
Subject: Re: difference between the Seattle Times and the PI
Date: 10 Apr 92 16:41:36 GMT
Organization: John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc., Everett, WA

In article <MS-C.702852388.1103527590.mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU> mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (Mark Crispin) writes:
>The only difference between the Seattle Times and the PI is `Doonesbury.'  In
>all other respects they are both ultra-liberal.  Compare the Times' biased
>international news coverage with the wire services or even other Washington
>State newspapers.  Sheesh, the Sun does a better job of reporting foreign
>news.

Geeez, you give the Seattle Times too much credit.  Even the National Enquirer
does a better job than the Seattle Times.  Of course, the Times is still far
ahead of the local TV news programs.  (Is Elvis still alive?  Details at 11 on
KOMO News 4!)

"Seattle.  Great town.  Lousy newspapers."

(A famous person (Mark Twain?) said this.)

-John  (I live in Everett and get my news from Canada.)

-- 
    *  *  *		John Witters			voice:	(206) 356-5274
  *  \      *		John Fluke Mfg. Co. Inc.
 *    \      *		P.O.B. 9090 M/S 241F		fax:	(206) 356-5116
*   DRIVING   *		Everett, Washington  98206-9090	     or (206) 356-5174
 *      \    *
  *      \  *		domain:	witters@tc.fluke.COM
    *  *  *		uucp:	{sun,microsoft,uw-beaver}!fluke!witters
Hi! I'm a .signature virus!  Add me to your .signature and join in the fun!
From: howie@cfarer.boeing.com (Howard Modell)
Newsgroups: seattle.general
Subject: Men's stores that carry vests??
Keywords: apparrel, information
Date: 14 Apr 92 01:22:50 GMT
Reply-To: howie@cfarer.boeing.com (Howard Modell)
Distribution: seattle
Organization: Boeing Defense and Space Group

Are there any men's stores (or even general apparrel stores) in the general 
Seattle-Tacoma area that currently carry vests?  Not the knit sleeveless-
sweater kind, but the more old-fashioned kind that look decent with a suit or 
sport coat?  


* ALL OPINIONS ARE MY OWN AND ARE NOT MY EMPLOYERS! **
Howard Modell                  INTERNET: howie@cfarer.boeing.com
P.O.Box 3999, m/s 8H-57
Boeing Defense and Space Group
Seattle, WA 98124-2499
From: il@bambam.u.washington.edu (Il Hwan Oh)
Newsgroups: seattle.general
Subject: Re: music censorship in WA state now in effect
Keywords: fascist censorship (shudder!)
Date: 8 Apr 92 21:05:36 GMT
Reply-To: iho@cac.washington.edu
Distribution: seattle
Organization: University of Washington, Tacoma

gilbert@mdd.comm.mot.com (John Gilbert) writes:

> If what she wants is to "control what her kids listen to", then why
> didn't she ask for ALL music to be restricted, and require approval?
> Then she could pick and choose as she likes.

I don't think that's a reasonable suggestion.

> What she asked for was for some governmental agency to make a
> VALUE JUDGEMENT (so she wouldn't have to pay attention) for ALL of
> us.  What she is really after is to be able to PRESUME that any music
> her kids get ahold of will be OK with her.

In my opinion, that's what government is for: to force the values
of the majority on the rest of the population.  I don't think that's
a bad thing.  In order to have an orderly society, each of us has to
forfeit certain liberties.

> How is it that she has no control of her own children, and she expects
> the law to do a better job?  Next thing you know, we'll all have to
> file tooth-brusing reports to the surgeon general beacuse her kids
> got cavities.

It is physically impossible for most mothers (or fathers) to supervise
their children 24 hours a day.  The economic climate dictates that both
parents must work (for most people).  As members of a society, we all
must take responsibility for children, not just the parents. The other
choice is to cloister ourselves in our homes and educate our children
ourselves, never letting them out of the house.

-- 
Il Hwan Oh                    | "A university is a place where people pay
Computer Facilities Manager   | high prices for goods which they then
Univ. of Washington, Tacoma   | proceed to leave on the counter when
iho@cac.washington.edu        | they go out of the store." -- Loren Eisley
From: il@bambam.u.washington.edu (Il Hwan Oh)
Newsgroups: seattle.general
Subject: Re: music censorship in WA state now in effect
Keywords: fascist censorship (shudder!)
Date: 12 Apr 92 08:15:16 GMT
Distribution: seattle
Organization: University of Washington

gilbert@mdd.comm.mot.com (John Gilbert) writes:
> iho@cac.washington.edu writes:

>>This is exactly what she did.  She's prevented her children from buying
>>albums she doesn't approve of.  The fact that other children in the state
>>can't buy them either is merely an unfortunate (depending on your view of
>>the matter) side-effect.

>This gets more incredible by the post...

I see that this is starting to get out of hand.  That statement I made,
quoted above, was made only half seriously.  I do believe that if a
majority of the parents in this state believe that censorship for
children is a good thing, we should support them.

>What is going on here is that you hold the same values as this lady in this
>case, so you are constructing arguments which sound generic that support her.
>Either that, or you agree with the grandma analogy.

Actually, I do not hold the same values this lady does.  I doubt that
she and I hold a common opinion on too many issues.  I am normally
against censorship, but I think this is a special case.  This applies
only to children and I believe we need to support the parents' wishes
on this.  I am not convinced one way or the other on this issue and
am merely defending her views as not being unreasonable, as most of
you claim.

-- 
Il Hwan Oh                    | "A university is a place where people pay
Computer Facilities Manager   | high prices for goods which they then
Univ. of Washington, Tacoma   | proceed to leave on the counter when
iho@cac.washington.edu        | they go out of the store." -- Loren Eisley
From: bill@Celestial.COM (Bill Campbell)
Newsgroups: seattle.general
Subject: Re: difference between the Seattle Times and the PI
Date: 11 Apr 92 01:24:34 GMT
Organization: Celestial Software, Mercer Island, WA

In <1992Apr10.184007.4323@tc.fluke.COM> moriarty@tc.fluke.COM (Jeff Meyer) writes:

:In <MS-C.702852388.1103527590.mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU> mrc@Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU (Mark Crispin) writes:

:>The only difference between the Seattle Times and the PI is `Doonesbury.'  

:No, Mark: the only difference between the Seattle Times and the PI is
:`Doonesbury' *and* `Calvin and Hobbes'.

Ah!  Now we get to the heart of the matter.  If I could get all the
comics daily without having to buy any of the newspapers...

Don't forget Pogo.  The real pity was that Walt Kelly died before
Watergate.  Can you imagine Porky and Pogo walking through the
swamp discussing politics today :-).

Bill
-- 
INTERNET:  bill@Celestial.COM   Bill Campbell; Celestial Software
UUCP:   ...!thebes!camco!bill   6641 East Mercer Way
             uunet!camco!bill   Mercer Island, WA 98040; (206) 947-5591
SPEED COSTS MONEY -- HOW FAST DO YOU WANT TO GO?
From: donn@brat.UUCP (Donn Pedro)
Newsgroups: seattle.general
Subject: Re: General Schwartzcouph
Date: 9 Apr 92 01:03:04 GMT
Distribution: seattle
Organization: Tandemonium, Kent, WA

In article <70551@bcsaic.UUCP> davidk@bcsaic.UUCP (Dave Kerlick) writes:
>
>Remember what the US said at Nuremburg? "I was just obeying orders" is
>no excuse for genocide.

If I had a dime for every time some ignorant fool spouted this ....

Learn what a lawful order is.




     Donn Pedro ....................a.k.a. uunet!nwnexus!brat!donn
         			     else:  uunet!uswnvg!dfpedro
	
	       "You talk the talk.  Do you walk the walk?"
From: davidk@bcsaic.UUCP (Dave Kerlick)
Newsgroups: seattle.general
Subject: Re: General Schwartzcouph
Date: 7 Apr 92 00:57:44 GMT
Distribution: seattle
Organization: Boeing Computer Services AI Center, Seattle

In article <1992Apr2.200724.26312@mdd.comm.mot.com> ceng@mdd.comm.mot.com (Curtis Eng) writes in defense of the mass murderer Schwartzkopf


> Every person in the military, enlisted or officer, must
>take on oath of enlistment, or oath of office, depending on if you are
>enlisted or officer.  The oath specificely states that you WILL follow
>the orders of those put in command of you.  Not maybe you should, or 
>if you feel like it, or if it's something you want to do.  It says
>that you WILL, period.

Remember what the US said at Nuremburg? "I was just obeying orders" is
no excuse for genocide.

-- 
G. David Kerlick,     Research & Technology Boeing Computer Services  
P.O. Box 24346, MS 7L-24, Seattle, WA 98124-0346
Work phone: 206-865-5051 Fax: 206-865-3327  Email: davidk@espresso.boeing.com
Newsgroups: seattle.general,rec.folk-dancing