From: barry@netcom.com (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: Self Appreciation (was: Re: Elle MacPherson causes rape?)
Organization: QQQCLC
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 03:23:57 GMT

In article <1dpfsmINNpr2@hp-sdd.sdd.hp.com> teri@sdd.hp.com (Teri Tracey) writes:
>In article <1992Nov6.165051.25204@cbnewsk.cb.att.com> krw@cbnewsk.cb.att.com (keith.r.smith) writes:
>>  If you _know_ that you are doing the best
>>that you can with what God gave you, then you have no reason to feel
>>inadequate next to anybody.  In a word _attitude_.  
>
>The thing is, though, most men are brought up to think this way, and
>women are not.  It goes back to that "men do, women are" dichotomy
>which unfortunately permeates our society.  Men receive their
>credibility and worth through what they *do*.  Women receive their
>credibility and worth through their *appearance.*

	Let's assume that's true (and I do agree it is, on average).
Is that:

	1) Bad for women?
	2) Bad for men?
	3) Bad for both, in different ways?
	4) Not bad at all?

>Men are
>automatically given credibility whereas women are asked to demonstrate
>capability.  Not quite so much any more these days, and this is a
>change many of us would like to see, but it's really ingrained.

	This does not follow from your earlier statement, and I don't
think it's true. There is no "automatic credibility" for men. Rather
the opposite, if anything. Because men are more defined by what they
do, they are more judged on that basis, as well. If a poor couple's
children are going hungry, who do we first think of as having failed to
provide for them?

>**Men (or anyone) who have never experienced the type of societal
>pressures that many women do, usually **don't understand** what it's
>like to be a woman and to be bombarded by Madison Avenue's images of
>the ideal woman.** You really *don't* have any idea, although you
>*think* you do.

	I may not, as a man, have an appreciation for the fine points
of how that specific gender stereotype affects women, but I'm certainly
aware of living under gender stereotypes. Rather than worrying about
whether gender stereotypes are harder on men or women, I'd just point
out the obvious: they're hardest on people of either sex who don't fit
the stereotypes. Is it typically psychologically harder on a woman than
a man to be fat? I'd say yes. Is it psychologically harder on a man
than a woman to be unemployed? I'd say yes to this, too.

>I'm not sure how to bring people to that understanding, either.   You
>can't understand what it can be like to grow up female.

	And you'll never understand what it's like to be male; Teiresias
is a myth. But this misses the point. You can imagine a society where
anxiety about weight, and about unemployment, was distributed equally
between the sexes, but the anxiety remains, uncured. Societies will always
have myths and ideals and, the world being what it is, some of 'em will
probably always be less than ideal.

	The thing I _don't_ overlook because I didn't grow up female, is
that _both_ sexes have special demands put upon them.

>I hope your message is not for us to "stop whining, if you just tried
>harder, you'd become CEO/earn more money/feel better about yourself."

	I think what he's talking about is "attitude"; that's the word
he used. And I agree that little boys are instilled with more of this
"attitude" than little girls, on average. "Attitude", in the positive
sense, is self-confidence and security, but in the negative sense it's
the counterfeiting of these traits. And you know, even though society
is successful in giving men more "attitude", I don't think it
succeeds in giving them any more _real_ self confidence.

	Coping with gender roles is, for men and women, more individual
and psychological than social. The details differ for each sex, but the
essential challenge is similar.

-  Nothing fails like success  -             Kenn Barry
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