From: mathew@mantis.co.uk (mathew)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,news.answers
Subject: Alt.Atheism Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
Summary: Please read this file before posting to alt.atheism
Keywords: FAQ, atheism
Date: 30 Sep 92 16:08:16 GMT
Expires: Sat, 31 Oct 1992 16:08:16 GMT
Followup-To: alt.atheism
Organization: Mantis Consultants, Cambridge. UK.
Supersedes: <19920902123752@mantis.co.uk>

Archive-name: atheism-faq
Last-modified: 30 July 1992
Version: 1.5

             THE ALT.ATHEISM FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS (FAQ) FILE

     This file is for all new readers of alt.atheism.

     Many groups of a 'controversial' nature have noticed that new readers
     often come up with the same questions, mis-statements or misconceptions
     and post them to the net.  To help prevent the constant debating of these
     points, this post is to serve as a guide to what are some of the 'tenets'
     of alt.atheism.

     This isn't to say that these things are not subject to further debate.
     It is to say that these things *have* been considered by the readers
     here.  If you have something significant to add to the debate on a
     particular topic then please do post.

     This file does not represent any one person's opinion.  Many have
     contributed to it -- too many to list.  Suggestions for additions and
     improvements are always welcome.

     This entire file is public domain.  Please feel free to share it with
     your friends.
     
     Summary of topics covered:

 1. "Doesn't your life seem pointless if your soul gets terminated at the end
     of your life cycle here on Earth?  When lives are in danger and families
     are in despair, what do you look to to comfort you?"

 2. "Atheists, in their heart of hearts, are really just theists who are
     denying it."

 3. "Atheists have no morals or ethics.  Hitler was an atheist, and look at
     what he did!"

 4. "Agnostics are people who 'can't make up their minds'."

 5. "In The Bible it says..."

 6. "It is impossible to prove the non-existence of something."

 7. "You said you were an atheist, so..."

 8. "If you believe in God and turn out to be incorrect, you have lost nothing
     -- but if you don't believe in God and you turn out to be wrong, you will
     go to hell.  Therefore it is foolish to be an atheist."

 9. "I want to tell people about the virtues of my religion."

10. "I know from personal experience that God exists."

11. "Don't you find yourself wanting to believe in God?"

12. "If theism is so wrong, why have so many cultures throughout history
     developed a strong belief in a supreme being?"

13. "The majority of people believe in some sort of God.  Many famous
     philosophers and scientists, such as Albert Einstein, have concluded that
     God definitely exists.  Surely you don't value your opinion over all of
     theirs?"

14. "Atheism is a religion just like any other; believing in atheism and in
     science is just as much an act of faith as believing in a god."

15. "Don't you worry that you might suddenly be shown to be wrong?"

16. "Everyone worships something."

17. "Sets of integers that have a lower bound each have a smallest member, so
     chains of causes must all have a first element, a causeless cause."

18. "Why are there are no hospitals dedicated to the Glory of the
     Non-existence of Gods?"

19. "The presence of design in the universe proves there is a God."

20. "The events of the New Testament are confirmed by independent documentary
     evidence."

21. "Godel's Incompleteness Theorem demonstrates that..."

22. "Atheists see no evidence for God because they are unwilling in their
     souls to see."

23. "Did George Bush really say that atheists should not be considered
     citizens?"

24. "I know where Hell is!  Hell is in Norway!"

25. "Where can I get Darwin fishes?"

26. "Does anyone have a list of Biblical contradictions?"


 1. "Doesn't your life seem pointless if your soul gets terminated at the end
     of your life cycle here on Earth?  When lives are in danger and families
     are in despair, what do you look to to comfort you?"

     Atheists do not despair due to their lack of belief in supernatural
     entities. [Note that the use of "supernatural entities" is not an attempt
     to ridicule them.  It is an attempt to be all-inclusive of whatever
     being(s) you may worship.  Of course, not all who believe in gods
     believe in any sort of afterlife.]

     The "point" and "meaning" in life for an atheist is determined by the
     atheist, not by others.  Many do not "fear" death as they believe that
     there is nothing to experience after death.  As for damnation after
     death, why fear what doesn't exist?

     Many atheists feel that they will not be "lost" when they die, since they
     will have had an influence upon other people who will live on.  Many more
     go through life simply because they like existing, and are genuinely
     happy to do so.

     Even if lack of life-after-death does make life seem pointless, so what?
     Are we supposed to believe something because it helps us psychologically
     [i.e., is comforting], rather than because it's true?

     You are implying that whether there actually is a God is not relevant
     to believing in one, so long as believing in one provides comfort.  You
     are asking that we put comfort ahead of truth.

     Many atheists cannot make themselves believe in something that they
     otherwise would not believe in, merely because they would be more
     comfortable believing it.  Even if they could do so, which is better: to
     believe something true but uncomfortable, or to believe something false
     but comfortable?

     Most atheists put truth first.  If searching for truth causes you to
     become uncomfortable, that's too bad.

 2. "Atheists, in their heart of hearts, are really just theists who are
     denying it."

     Most atheists (at least the ones on this group) have spent much time
     in personal study and are educated people.  They have not stumbled upon
     their conclusions through ignorance.  If you want to post a "But have you
     considered..." post, be forewarned that most of us have considered it.

     Also, the claim that "Everyone believes in something" is not a valid
     claim here.  There are quite a number of people here who honestly do not
     have a belief in anything except that their senses give them valid
     impressions of the world around them.  A few do not even take that on
     faith.

     According to a Freedom From Religion Foundation study over 90% of the
     atheists who responded came to atheism because religion did not work for
     them.  They found that what religion wanted them to believe and what they
     saw around them simply did not work together.

     Atheists are not unbelievers by default; they are predominantly
     unbelievers by carefully considered choice.  They have almost certainly
     heard "the word of God", and rejected it.

 3. "Atheists have no morals or ethics.  Hitler was an atheist, and look at
     what he did!"

     Atheists think that morality is not something that necessarily comes
     from "a higher authority."  Their morality comes from their experience of
     how the world 'ought' to work, not from someone else.  While some do
     feel that there is an 'absolute' morality, it is not because a
     supernatural being decreed it so.

     Human beings are social animals who can only live fully when in
     co-operation with their fellows.  This is a good enough reason to
     discourage most atheists from most forms of anti-social ('immoral')
     behaviour, purely for the purpose of self-preservation.  If there is a
     good reason independent of the existence of any deities, why invent one?

     Many atheists behave in what might be described as a moral way because
     they feel a natural human tendency to empathize with other humans.  You
     might ask why empathize with others -- why care about things that cause
     others to suffer?  One answer is that there is often no reason.  Many
     atheists simply are that way.

     In the particular case of Adolf Hitler, it is worth pointing out that he
     was not an atheist.  As he said himself:

        The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in
        his own denomination, of making _people_stop_just_talking_
        superficially_of_God's_will,_and_actually_fulfill_God's_will,_and_
        not_let_God's_word_be_desecrated._[orig. ital.]

        For God's will gave men their form, their essence, and their
        abilities.  Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the
        Lord's creation, the divine will.  Therefore, let every man be
        active, each in his own denomination if you please, and let every
        man take it as his first and most sacred duty to oppose anyone who
        in his activity by word or deed steps outside the confines of his
        religious community and tries to butt into the other.

        [...]

        Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will
        of the Almighty Creator: _by_defending_myself_against_the_Jew,_I_am_
        fighting_for_the_work_of_the_Lord._[orig. ital.]

               -- Adolf Hitler, from "Mein Kampf", trans. Ralph Mannheim.

     Of course, someone bad believing something does not make that belief
     wrong.

 4. "Agnostics are people who 'can't make up their minds'."

     Most agnostics are of the opinion that determination of the existence or
     non-existence of supernatural entities is not possible.  They may go
     through the world under the assumption that such things don't exist, but
     that is because they have no evidence that such things do.

     They have no reason to believe that there is a supernatural entity
     watching over them.  However, that is no reason to assume that such an
     entity isn't doing so.

 5. "In The Bible it says..."

     Most of the readers of this newsgroup feel that the Bible is of
     questionable accuracy, as it was written thousands of years ago by many
     authors who were recording oral tradition that existed many years before.
     Thus, any claimed 'truth' in it is of questionable legitimacy.  This
     isn't to say that The Bible has no truth in it; simply that any truth
     must be examined before being accepted.

     Many of the readers of this group also feel that because any passage is
     subject to "interpretation", any claim that a passage 'means' one thing
     and one thing only is not legitimate.

     Note that this feeling tends to extend to other books.

     It is also remarkable to many atheists that theists tend to ignore other
     equally plausible religious books in favour of those of their own
     religion.

 6. "It is impossible to prove the non-existence of something."

     The typical alt.atheism counterexample to this is to point out that
     "There is no such thing as a square circle."  Note that this deals with
     things that are well defined.  Whether supernatural entities are well
     defined is debatable.  See also point number 21 below.

     In practice, those who call themselves atheists do not claim that there
     is absolutely no god, but limit any outright denials to varieties of god
     that fit the descriptions followed by certain religions.  Disproving
     such a particular god may be done even though disproving the existence of
     all "gods" cannot.  Disbelieving in all gods-as-presented-in-religions is
     in practice pretty close to disbelieving in all gods, but not close
     enough for arguments requiring the latter to work.

 7. "You said you were an atheist, so..."

     Words mean different things to different people.  Just because a person
     claims to be an atheist, agnostic or theist does not mean that that
     person conforms to your opinions of him or to the tendencies delineated
     here.

     In particular, many people believe atheism to be "the belief that no gods
     exist".  Most atheists, however, seem to define the term as "absence of
     belief in the existence of gods".  (The latter is a definition supported
     by many major dictionaries, such as the Oxford English Dictionary,
     so it is not unreasonable.)

     If you wish to argue against the "strong atheist" position -- "the belief
     that no gods exist" -- it is recommended that you explicitly say so in
     each posting.

 8. "If you believe in God and turn out to be incorrect, you have lost nothing
     -- but if you don't believe in God and turn out to be incorrect, you will
     go to hell.  Therefore it is foolish to be an atheist."

     This is known as Pascal's Wager.  It has several flaws.

     Firstly, it does not indicate which religion to follow.  Indeed, there
     are many mutually exclusive and contradictory religions out there.  This
     is often described as the "avoiding the wrong hell" problem.  If a person
     is a follower of religion X, he may end up in religion Y's version of
     hell.

     Secondly, the statement that "If you believe in God and turn out to be
     incorrect, you have lost nothing" is not true.  Suppose you're believing
     in the wrong God -- the true God might punish you for your foolishness.
     Consider also the deaths that have resulted from people rejecting
     medicine in favour of prayer.

     Many feel that for intellectually honest people, belief is based on
     evidence, with some amount of intuition.  It is not a matter of will or
     cost-benefit analysis.

     Formally speaking, the argument consists of four statements:

       1. One does not know whether God exists.
       2. Not believing in God is bad for one's eternal soul if God does
          exist.
       3. Believing in God is of no consequence if God does not exist.
       4. Therefore it is in one's interest to believe in God.

     One problem with this argument, in the abstract, is that it creates
     information from no information.  This is considered invalid in
     information theory.  Statement 1 indicates one has no information about
     God -- but statements 2 and 3 indicate that beneficial information can be
     gained from the absolute lack of information about God.  This violates
     information entropy -- information has been extracted from no
     information, at no "cost".

     The biggest reason why Pascal's wager is a failure is that if God is
     omniscient he will certainly know who really believes and who believes as
     a wager.  He will spurn the latter... assuming he actually cares at all
     whether people believe in him.

 9. "I want to tell people about the virtues of my religion."

     Preaching is not appreciated.

     Feel free to talk about your religion, but do not write postings that are
     on a "conversion" theme.  Such postings do not belong here (try the
     newsgroup talk.religion.misc).

     You would doubtless not welcome postings from atheists to your favourite
     newsgroup in an attempt to convert you; please do unto others as you
     would have them do unto you!

     Often theists make their basic claims about God in the form of
     lengthy analogies or parables.  Be aware that atheists have heard of
     God and know the basic claims about him; if the sole purpose of your
     parable is to tell atheists that God exists and brings salvation, you
     may as well not post it, since it tells us nothing we have not been
     told before.

10. "I *know* from personal experience that God exists."

     Just as many theists have personal evidence that the being they worship
     exists, so many atheists have personal evidence that such beings do not
     exist.  That evidence varies from person to person.

     Furthermore, without wishing to dismiss your evidence out of hand, many
     people have claimed all kinds of unlikely things -- that they have been
     abducted by UFOs, visited by the ghost of Elvis, and so on.

11. "Don't you find yourself wanting to believe in God?"

     Atheists live their lives as if there is nobody watching over them.  Many
     of them do not have any desire to have someone watching over them.

     Besides -- even if it is what the individual wants, so what?  Should an
     individual believe things to be true because he wants them to be true
     rather than because they are true?

12. "If theism is so wrong, why have so many cultures throughout history
     developed a strong belief in a supreme being?"

     Many atheists would say that it is simply a human weakness to believe in
     gods, to help people to understand what they could not otherwise
     understand.  Atheism was not prevalent in early civilizations because
     those civilizations lacked alternative (non-supernatural) explanations
     for many things.

     It is also worth pointing out that many cultures have developed
     'religions' which do not have a supreme being in the Western sense --
     Buddhism and Taoism, for example.

     As to why religion is so successful at propagating itself -- it is simply
     that it has certain characteristics that make its ideas prone to
     survival. For example, many religions aid their own survival by inducing
     believers to destroy unbelievers, by requiring believers to proselytize,
     by discouraging believers from questioning doctrine, and so on.  The
     spread of a belief does not necessarily have anything to do with whether
     it is true or whether it 'works'.  Consider the widespread belief in
     astrology.

     The theory of memetics discusses "memes" -- idea sets or beliefs which
     can propagate themselves in an environment of human minds, by analogy
     with genes. Many atheists feel that religions are just sets of
     particularly successful parasitic memes.  Of course, there is no virtue
     associated with successful self-propagation; a religion is not a "good
     thing" because of the number of people who believe it, any more than a
     disease is a good thing because of a the number of people who have
     caught it.

     Finally, it is strange to try and claim vindication from other religions,
     given how savagely most religions denounce all competing beliefs.

13. "The majority of people believe in some sort of God.  Many famous
     philosophers and scientists, such as Albert Einstein, have concluded that
     God definitely exists.  Surely you don't value your opinion over all of
     theirs?"

     Truth is not determined by the beliefs of the majority.  A great many
     people believe in astrology.  People used to believe that the world was
     flat.

     For every scientist or philosopher who believes in a god, there is one
     who does not.

     Remember also that atheists do not look to famous scientists or
     philosophers in the way that theists look upon gods or prophets.  Famous
     men are humans; with knowledge in certain areas, but still humans.  In an
     area where they lack special knowledge, an atheist doesn't give any more
     credence to their words than to the words of an ordinary human.  Many
     scientists have made themselves look foolish when speaking outside their
     area of expertise.

     Einstein did once comment that "God does not play dice [with the
     universe]". This quotation is commonly mentioned to show that Einstein
     believed in the Christian God.  Used this way, it is out of context; it
     refers to Einstein's refusal to accept the uncertainties indicated by
     quantum theory.  Furthermore, Einstein's religious background was
     Jewish rather than Christian.

     A better quotation showing what Einstein thought about God is the
     following: "I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly
     harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and
     actions of human beings."

     Einstein was unable to accept Quantum Theory because of his belief in
     an objective, orderly reality; a reality which would not be subject
     to random events and which would not be dependent upon the observer.  He
     believed that QM was incomplete, and that a better theory would have no
     need for statistical interpretations.  So far no such better theory has
     been found, and much evidence suggests that it never will be.

14. "Atheism is a religion just like any other; believing in atheism and in
     science is just as much an act of faith as believing in a god."

     It is necessary to believe in a certain number of unproven axioms in
     order to form a useful model of the way the world works.  Most atheists
     try to believe the absolute minimum number of unproven assertions; and
     even those are always subject to questioning if direct observations of
     events which take place cast doubt on an atheist's beliefs.

     If you like, you can call this an act of faith, although doing so renders
     all beliefs "acts of faith", making the term meaningless.  The important
     point is that an atheist's beliefs which are taken on 'faith' are
     always open to question.  This is not the case for the basic beliefs of
     many (if not most) theistic religions, even if the fine details are
     continually being debated; to believe in (for example) Christianity you
     must accept a certain number of core beliefs; there is no such
     requirement to be an atheist.

     Some atheists draw a distinction between "beliefs" and "assumptions", and
     go as far as to not "believe" anything.

15. "Don't you worry that you might suddenly be shown to be wrong?"

     The shortest answer to this is "No, do you?"

     Many atheists have held their beliefs for many years, and have yet to be
     proven wrong.  They therefore reason that they are unlikely to be proven
     wrong, and cease to worry about it.

     You might feel that the theist's worry is less because even if he is
     wrong, he is playing it safe.  That's Pascal's Wager -- see item 8.

     In fact, many atheists would be happy to believe in the existence of a
     god; all that they ask is that he provide convincing direct evidence of
     his existence.

16. "Everyone worships something."

     If so, everyone is a polytheist.  Theists care just as much about those
     things that atheists care about.  If the atheists' reactions to (for
     example) their families amount to worship then so do the theists'.

17. "Sets of integers that have a lower bound each have a smallest member, so
     chains of causes must all have a first element, a causeless cause."

     The set of real numbers greater than zero and less than ten has a
     definite lower bound, but has no smallest member.

     Further, even if it is true that there must be a causeless cause, that
     does not imply that that cause must be a conscious supernatural entity,
     and especially not that any such entity must match the description
     favoured by any particular religion.

18. "Why are there are no hospitals dedicated to the Glory of the
     Non-existence of Gods?"

     There are plenty of charities without religious purpose that atheists can
     contribute to.  Many atheists have also contributed to religious
     charities, for the sake of the practical good some of them do.

     Most atheists do not feel the need to shout about their lack of belief.
     It's just a simple everyday thing.

19. "The presence of design in the universe proves there is a God."

     It is a matter of dispute whether there is any element of design in the
     universe.  Those who believe that the complexity and diversity of living
     creatures on the earth is evidence of a creator are best advised to read
     the newsgroup talk.origins for a while.

     There is insufficient space to summarize both sides of the debate here.
     However, the conclusion is that there is no scientific evidence in favour
     of the existence of any creator.  Furthermore, there is much evidence,
     observation and theory that can explain many of the complexities of the
     universe and life on earth.

     For an excellent overview of the arguments against the "proof by design",
     read the book "The Blind Watchmaker" by Richard Dawkins.

20. "The events of the New Testament are confirmed by independent documentary
     evidence."

     The writings of Josephus are often mentioned as independent documentary
     evidence.

     Early versions of Josephus's work are thought not to have mentioned 
     Jesus or James; the extant version discusses John in a non-Christian
     context.  Many scholars believe that the original mentioned Jesus and
     James in passing, but that this was expanded by Christian copyists.
     Several "reconstructions" of the original text have been published to
     this effect.

     Much information appears in the Ecclesiastical History of Eusebius
     (about 320 C.E.).  It is worthless as historical material because of the
     deliberate falsification of the wily Eusebius who is generally
     acknowledged as 'the first thoroughly dishonest historian of antiquity.' 
     It is Eusebius who is generally given the title of authorship for this
     material.

     Aside from the New Testament, the biographical information about Jesus
     is more well-documented.  For further information, please consult the
     Frequently Asked Questions file for the newsgroup soc.religion.christian.

21. "Godel's Incompleteness Theorem demonstrates that..."

     Godel's incompleteness result says that in any consistent formal system
     which is sufficiently expressive that it can model ordinary arithmetic,
     one can formulate expressions which can never be proven to be valid or
     invalid ('true' or 'false') within that formal system.  Essentially, all
     such systems can formulate what is known as a "Liar Paradox."  The
     classic Liar Paradox sentence in ordinary English is "This sentence is
     false." Note that if a proposition is undecidable, the formal system
     cannot deduce anything about it -- not even that it is undecidable.

     The logic used in theological discussions is rarely well defined, so
     claims that Godel's Incompleteness Theorem demonstrates that it is
     impossible to prove or disprove) the existence of God are worthless in
     isolation.

     One can trivially define a formal system in which it is possible to prove
     the existence of God, simply by having the existence of God stated as an
     axiom.  This is unlikely to be viewed by atheists as a convincing proof,
     however.

     It may be possible to succeed in producing a formal system built on
     axioms that both atheists and theists agree with.  It may then be
     possible to show that Godel's Incompleteness Theorem holds for that
     system.  However, that would still not demonstrate that it is impossible
     to prove that God exists within the system.  Furthermore, it certainly
     wouldn't tell us anything about whether it is possible to prove the
     existence of God generally.

     Note also that all of these hypothetical formal systems tell us nothing
     about the actual existence of God; the formal systems are just
     abstractions.

     Another frequent claim is that Godel's Incompleteness Theorem
     demonstrates that a religious text (the Bible, the Book of Mormon or
     whatever) cannot be both consistent and universally applicable. 
     Religious texts are not formal systems, so such claims are nonsense.

22. "Atheists see no evidence for God because they are unwilling in their
     souls to see."

     Many, if not most atheists were previously Christians.  Many have spent
     hours in prayer sincerely trying to reach God.  Whilst it is true that
     some atheists lack an open mind, assuming that that is true of all
     atheists is closed-minded and ill-mannered.  Patronizing responses
     such as "Of course God is there, you just aren't looking hard enough" are
     not appreciated.

     If you wish to debate with atheists, you should give them the benefit of
     the doubt and assume that they are being truthful and sincere when, for
     example, they say that they have looked for God.  If you are not willing
     to believe them, then debate is pointless.

23. "Did George Bush really say that atheists should not be considered
     citizens?"

     The following exchange took place at the Chicago airport between Robert
     Sherman of American Atheist Press and George Bush, on August 27 1988. 
     The Republican presidential nominee was there to announce federal
     disaster relief for Illinois.  The discussion turned to the presidential
     primary:

      RS: "What will you do to win the votes of Americans who are atheists?"

      GB: "I guess I'm pretty weak in the atheist community.  Faith in
           God is important to me."

      RS: "Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of
           Americans who are atheists?"

      GB: "No, I don't know that atheists should be considered citizens,
           nor should they be considered patriots.  This is one nation under
           God."

      RS: "Do you support as a sound constitutional principle the separation
           of state and church?"

      GB: "Yes, I support the separation of church and state.  I'm just not
           very high on atheists."

     UPI reported on May 8, 1989, that various atheist organizations were
     still angry over the remarks.

     The exchange appeared in the Boulder Daily Camera on Monday February 27,
     1989.  It can also be found in "Free Enquiry" magazine, Fall 1988 issue,
     Volume 8, Number 4, page 16.

24. "I know where Hell is!  Hell is in Norway!"

     There are several towns called "Hell" in various countries around the
     world, including Norway and the USA.  Whilst this information is mildly
     amusing the first time one hears it, readers of alt.atheism are now 
     getting pretty fed up with hearing it every week.

25. "Where can I get Darwin fishes?"

     Darwin fish bumper stickers and assorted other atheist paraphernalia are
     available from the Freedom From Religion Foundation in the US.  Write to:
     FFRF, P.O. Box 750, Madison, WI 53701.  Telephone (608) 256 8900

     The deluxe moulded 3D plastic Darwin fish is available from:

      Evolution Designs
      7119 Laurel Canyon #4
      North Hollywood, CA  91605

      $4.95 postpaid in the US

     For those not in the know:  A Darwin fish is just like those Christian
     fish symbols you see on the backs of cars, but with legs sticking out
     and the word "Darwin" inside.  The FFRF bumper stickers reportedly don't
     have the legs.

     People in the San Francisco Bay area can get Darwin Fish from Lynn Gold
     <lgold@callahans.cadecence.com>.  For net people who go to Lynn
     directly, the price is $4.95 per fish.

26. "Does anyone have a list of Biblical contradictions?"

     American Atheist Press publish an atheist's handbook detailing Biblical
     contradictions:

     "The Bible Handbook"  W.P. Ball and G.W. Foote  American Atheist Press
     372 pp.  ISBN 0-910309-26-4, 2nd edition, 1986.  Bible contradictions,
     absurdities, atrocities, immoralities... contains Ball, Foote: "The
     Bible Contradicts Itself", AAP.  Based on the King James version of the
     Bible.

     AAP's address is:

     American Atheist Press
     P.O. Box 140195          7215 Cameron Road
     Austin, TX 78714-0195    Austin, TX 78752-2973
     Phone: (512) 458-1244    Fax: (512) 467-9525
    

mathew
Xref: sparky alt.atheism:18218 sci.skeptic:17180 talk.origins:12271