From: lauraf@eecs.umich.edu (Laura Falk)
Subject: Re: [This is what Corey and Tim says] This is what the Jehovah's Witnesses do.
Organization: University of Michigan
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 19:26:29 GMT

	<1992Jul22.184137.12369@e2big.mko.dec.com>
	<1992Jul22.232752.5755@newsroom.utas.edu.au>
Distribution: 

   > >I don't care if this breaks all the rules of Internet etiquette.  This
   > >must be posted to show what the JW's do when they encounter arguments
   > >they cannot rebutt.  According to Andrea, I am an 'apostate', apparently
   > >because I had the "truth" and I rejected it.  
   > 
   >         You are right that what you've done breaks all the rules of net
   >     etiquette.  I suppose you feel that the ends justify the means, but
   >     posting private mail without permission is still a dishonorable
   >     activity, regardless of your reason.

   Don't sweat about it for a second Corey, I, for one, was very interested to
   read Andreas' comment. Hell hath no fury like a fundamentalist religion scorned.

Actually Corey, I was very interested to read Andreas' comment as well.  I never
got that information from Andrea.  It is too bad that you feel that way about
the truth.  What are you going to do when world events unfold as foretold in the
bible?  What will you believe when the cry of "peace and security" goes out?
Would you not rather live forever than to die?  Does this system have sayings of
everlasting life as what Jehovah does?  I for one being one of Jehovah's Witnesses want to
see you remain a spiritual brother!

   >         I understand why Andreas wrote what he did, and he's probably right
   >     that with your current attitude, many, if not all Witnesses on the net
   >     probably won't have much, if anything, to say to you; but you have to
   >     admit that up to this point there HAVE been at least a few Witnesses
   >     who've been willing to talk to you (in public and perhaps in private as
   >     well), perhaps because they felt that they might regain you back as a
   >     spiritual brother [since by your own admission, you haven't been
   >     'kicked out' yet, and you evidently haven't had the nerve to formally
   >     submit a written resignation of your own, which would save the elders
   >     in your congregation the anguish of having to disfellowship you,
   >     assuming, that is, that you really *want* to be disfellowshipped].

   If your religion is so bloody fantastic why don't you try to convince him to
   come back? Where's all your loving-christian-niceness now? 

Tim, that is what Mark was trying to do.

   >         The dictionary I have handy defines apostacy as:
   > 
   >                 "renunciation of one's religion, principles,
   >                 political party, etc."
   > 
   >     Regardless of the fact that Andreas as labelled you as an apostate, I'd
   >     say, after having read a few of your postings, that you've made it
   >     pretty clear that you've done precisely what an apostate does, namely
   >     you've renounced your religion, and have done so publicly, at least
   >     as far as the net is concerned.
   And many of us applaud you for it Corey. It's called being intellectually
   honest and true to your convinctions, and it takes GUTS.

It takes GUTS to be **different** and be true to your convictions.  As the book
of Matthew states broad and spacious is the road leading off to destruction but narrow and
cramped is the road leading off to life and few are the ones finding it.  

   >         No, Corey ... that sums up Andreas alone; or perhaps only provides
   >     the basis which *you* consider valid for summing up all Witnesses.  
   >     Andreas is reminding you of a truth which you are already aware of,
   >     that we don't waste our time arguing with people who apostasize from
   >     our faith; but you clearly are ignoring (perhaps because it's
   >     convenient) the fact that we'd MUCH rather see you remain our spiritual
   >     brother, so that you live forever in God's 'new system' as a fellow
   >     servant of Jehovah. 

   Which is why we're not going to talk to you anymore, or listen to anything
   you have to say. Hey, I can see the logic there.

How much time would you spent listening to someones belief on a matter than is
conflicting with yours?

   Well I don't know about Corey, old son, but the book he mentions happens
   to have been the very publication which fell into my hands about ten years
   ago. It was my first encounter with creationist propaganda and, since my
   field is the humanities, I found many of the anti-evolution arguments in it
   pretty convincing. Luckily I went to a library and checked up as many of the
   quotes and footnotes in the book as I could and did a bit of reading on 
   evolution and anti-evolutionism (this is called looking at both sides of the
   story). I found that your sweet little book is a bizarre collection of
   out-of-context quotations, misquotations, misleading quotations, non sequiturs,
   errrors of fact and just about every other dirty intellectual trick known
   to man. (I'll substantiate this statement in long and glorious detail if you 

Please do!!!!  I keep an open mind just as long as what is being said agrees 
with the bible.

   I recently had two JW's turn up on my doorstep brandishing this same
   book. I invited them in and went went through it page by page. It took
   several hours, but in the end they were reduced to silence and admitted that
   'perhaps there's a bit more to it than we thought'. They probably went back
   to their kingdom hall to be re-brainwashed, but I like to think that perhaps
   they went home and thought about what they believe and why. I don't care what
   they concluded so long as they THOUGHT ABOUT IT. And if I sound angry that's
   because I am.

I have not only thought about what I believe but have pondered it.  I too have
researched to the best of my ability the publications and have found something
far different then you.

   Chin up Corey, it takes courage to say "I was wrong, what I used to believe
   seemed to make sense but now it doesn't and I was wrong". Not very many 
   people have that courage, but that's the only way anyone learns anything.
   And if your dear sweet JW brothers don't want to listen to you, that's
   their loss as far as I'm concerned.
   Tim O'Neill

You are right, Tim, it does take courage to admit when one is wrong!!  However,
I have a question: why is it JW's loss if Corey gives up everlasting life for
Satan's system, which as he well knows will be destroyed very soon?  None of us
or Jehovah wants to see anyone destroyed!!!

Laura
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc