HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: patk@sr.hp.com (Patrick Kearney)
Subject: Literary Oddities
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 15:31:25 GMT
Organization: HP Sonoma County (SRSD/MWTD/MID)
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.9 PL6]


Help Wanted!

I'd be obliged for recommendations on books, whether in or out of
print, concerning literary oddities & curiosities. The sort of
thing I'm interested in is Nick Cohn's "Warrent for Genocide"
(about "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion") and D'Israeli's
"Curiosities of Literature" and "Calamities of Authors".

I'm also interested in anything relating to such bibliographical
eccentricities as books printed in a single copy (e.g. Crebillon's
"Tableaux des moeurs du temps"), books bound in human skin,
forgeries (Henry Ireland's "Vortigen" for example) or hoaxes, like
"Les Chansons de Bilitis" by Pierre Louys.

Thanks in advance.

--

**********************************     "Kill one man, you're a murderer.
Patrick Kearney			 *  	Kill a thousand, you're a hero.
C/O Hewlett-Packard		 *	Kill everyone, you're God."
1400 Fountaingrove Parkway       *                             - Rostand.
Santa Rosa, CA 95403.		 *
				 *
INTERNET: patk@hpwmsaw.sr.HP.COM *
TELNET: 577-3460                 *
**********************************
From: mtaranto@panix.com (Mark Taranto)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: fictional or not, women, cross-dressing
Date: 8 Jan 93 03:17:43 GMT
Organization: The Inner Clique


Sburgfort responds to Sheila's request:

	Danny-Boy writes:
	
		Someone send me suggestions for readings with cross 
		dressing woman, fictional or non, perhaps even a 
		reference to a journal study. 
	
		I am working on thinking about writing a book. Don't 
		want to be too 	fanciful.


	Don't forget the scene in _Huckleberry Finn_ where Huck dresses as
	a girl and is found out by a woman who tosses him a spool of thread.

	I think the movie "Some Like It Hot" is based on a book, although
	I haven't read it.  1920's when two men who witness gangsters killing
	someone hide out in an all woman jazz band.

Of course, those are men dressing as women (though in fairness he had
already mentioned 9 1/2 WEEKS).  

But what about Shakespeare!  Nearly ALL of his women dress as men (presumably
because they were played by men).
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: jk@panix.com (Jim Kalb)
Subject: Re: Dickinson (was Re: Paglia)
Organization: Institute for the Human Sciences
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 15:28:03 GMT

sanjiva@ecrc.de (Sanjiva Prasad) writes:

>Maybe I should read La Paglia, after all, to get me to decide to read
>Dickinson.  A brief encounter with Ms Emily was sufficient to convince
>me that  she was bland, mawkish and weak.  Pale, Pale, Pale, beyond the
>pale of inspiration.

I haven't read Paglia on Dickinson, but I would have described
Dickinson's verse as unconventional, intense and compressed.  Even
poems to which I would like to object ("I'm nobody --/Who are you?/Are
you nobody too?") are far better than they have any right to be.

>So what is a *good* Dickinson to read?  I know many Americans consider
>her a goddess, so may I have a considered opinion?

There's no point in quoting my favorites since our tastes are unlikely
to be compatible.  I suggest you look at a selection of her work, read
a few (they're all short), and see if you see anything in them.  Or
read Paglia if you want -- her comments might at least be somewhat
interesting.
-- 
Jim Kalb (jk@panix.com)
"We are, I know not how, double in ourselves, so that what we believe we
disbelieve, and cannot rid ourselves of what we condemn."  (Montaigne)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: rxm@vortex (Robert I McLachlan)
Subject: The 10,000 nights of Mike Morris
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 23:32:36 GMT

I recently read that the entire extant body of Greek writing (to 500 AD)
fills about 500MB and is available on CD-ROM. Those Loeb pages are
small, so let's see...

5 x 10^8 bytes / ( 6 bytes/word 10 words/line 30 lines/page 25 pages/night)
	~ 10^4 nights.

Keep up the good work, Mike. See you in 2020. 
(But I was surprised to read that the Latin opus is only 1/10 the size.)

We now return to your regularly scheduled debate on CO2, in which Mike
takes on all of USENET single-handed.

Robert McLachlan

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: Paul Johnson (was Paglia)
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 20:25:22 GMT

In article <1993Jan11.164724.562@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> ashall@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Andrew S Hall) writes:

>3) I think Johnson is responding more to the cult of personality
>that "left" intellectuals have.

Yeah, I'm a charter member of the Victor Gollancz cult.


--Mike




-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution
mnemonic@eff.org| The only one that's coming."
(617) 864-0665  |                           
EFF, Cambridge  |                   --Robert Frost 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: msmorris@watsci.UWaterloo.ca (Mike Morris)
Subject: Re: Homophobia (really not about  Homeschooling)
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 18:26:05 GMT

                                         Saturday, the 9th of January, 1993

Mike Godwin asks:
  Should they be allowed to fire an employee if they discover he's Jewish?
  What if they feel that Jews undermine their "flaming fundie image"?

I think I've already said that they should be ``allowed'' to 
do this, yes.

                   Mike Morris
            (msmorris@watsci.uwaterloo.ca)


Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: Paglia (again)
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 05:36:52 GMT

In article <C0oAI6.A7I@news.iastate.edu> s1mbm@isuvax.iastate.edu writes:
>On "Later with Bob Costas," Paglia said that once a woman consents to go
>into a man's room in the course of a date, she basically has no business
>accusing him of rape if he forces himself on her.

Paglia has not said any such thing.

> Given the nature of
>male sexuality, Paglia said, the woman's agreement to enter the man's room
>is tantamount to consenting to sex.

What she has said, time and again, is that, when you're on a date, and you
end the date by going to your date's room, with both parties' consent,
there is a reasonable expectation that something sexual is in the air.
A woman who does this is taking the risk of date rape.

It does not take a rocket scientist to distinguish between this
proposition and an actual *defense* of date rape.

>While watching the show and reflecting on it later, it wasn't just the
>viewpoint Paglia expressed that I found reprehensible, but the smirking,
>no-room-for-disagreement attitude which attended her articulation of these
>views.

The irony is how smirking you are in this posting condemning Paglia's
smirking.

>I wonder how Mike and Heather will dance around *this* post.

It's easy to dance around a misrepresentation that borders on outright
falsehood.

>I would have
>more respect for you folks if you weren't so avid to defend, seemingly,
>*everything* Paglia has to say.

There's plenty not to defend about Paglia. But you've been so busy in
willful misreadings of what she's said on one subject that we're not
likely to get to the issues where I disagree with her. (For example, I
disagree with her about the extent to which biology limits or dictates
achievement, and I think she elides the distinction between statistical
tendencies and individual potentials.)


--Mike




-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution
mnemonic@eff.org| The only one that's coming."
(617) 864-0665  |                           
EFF, Cambridge  |                   --Robert Frost 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: s1mbm@isuvax.iastate.edu (michael bruce mcdonald)
Subject: RE: Paglia
Reply-To: s1mbm@isuvax.iastate.edu
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa
Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1993 02:02:14 GMT

In article <8JAN93.19281529@vax.clarku.edu>, hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu writes:
>I wrote:
>
>>>I continually find it interesting to see terms like "narcissistic" applied
>>>to Paglia.  Also, words like "boastful", "arrogant", and "egomaniacal".
>>>She is, of course.  But so what?  Male writers, critics, and academics
>>>have been narcissistic, boastful, arrogant, and egomaniacal for ages.
>>>Why is it a constant source of comment in Paglia's case?  Ask yourself if
>>>you'd be so quick to characterize her that way if she were a man.
>
>Ron Hogan writes:
>
>>I beleive the word you're looking for is "Oliver Stone".
>
>Is "Oliver Stone" a word?
>
>And heck, Ron, being a film student, you should know that film directors
>are, by definition, narcissistic, boastful, arrogant and egomaniacal.*
>That's why there are so few female ones.

And *that* is utter bullshit!

mbm

>
>Heather
>HHENDERSON@vax.clarku.edu
>
>*Well, I can name one or two who aren't, but they're the exceptions that
>prove the rule.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: Computers not a substitute for books
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 23:39:43 GMT

In article <1993Jan6.211907.10831@utkux1.utk.edu> koosman@UTKUX1.UTK.EDU (Toby Koosman) writes:
>In article <1993Jan6.050439.26035@eff.org> mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin) writes
>>Hmmm. Does the fact that one requires *something* to listen to a record,
>>tape, or CD mean that our culture is divided into the music poor and the
>>music rich?
>
>This is a poor defense of technology from my view, demonstrating the sorry
>pass we've come to on account of sound reproduction technology, in that the
>normal way to appreciate music is assumed to be, not witnessing musicians
>playing their instruments before you, but hearing recorded music.  

I could have made a similar comparison relying using musical instruments.
Whether you have a Steinway doesn't settle the issue of whether you're
"music poor."


--Mike


-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution
mnemonic@eff.org| The only one that's coming."
(617) 864-0665  |                           
EFF, Cambridge  |                   --Robert Frost 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: dstein@oak.math.ucla.edu (David Stein)
Subject: Re: Shouting at robots
Organization: UCLA Mathematics Department
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 93 16:34:29 GMT

Tom Maddox writes:

>	In my story "Gravity's Angel" (Nov. '92 _Omni_), the protagonist
>has a couple of conversations with a defective groundskeeping robot--he

  Well well well.  You get paid thousands and thousands of dollars and
it's not enough -- now you want to conquer the little leagues, too.

>doesn't actually shout, however, as what he has to say is more in sorrow
>than in anger.

  Good!  I say that's enough for a disqualification.

 - David, hungry again.

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm not a native speaker of English, so I'm not sure what I wrote.
Flames will be ignored unless you post them in perfect Czech.
================================ - David (the metamathician) - ===
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: Homophobia (really not about  Homeschooling)
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 21:26:30 GMT

In article <1993Jan10.152706.19164@husc3.harvard.edu> zeleny@husc10.harvard.edu (Mikhail Zeleny) writes:
>In article <1993Jan10.031748.17865@Princeton.EDU>
>roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig) writes:

>>In article <C0M6vv.EMn@watserv2.uwaterloo.ca>
>>msmorris@watsci.UWaterloo.ca (Mike Morris) writes:

>RL:
>>[...]
>>Horseshit.
>>[...]  
>>Go stuff it. 
>>[...]

>MM:
>>>What is so wrong about letting the employment contract be freely negotiable
>>>between both parties? 

>RL:
>>Can you say "horse and rabbit stew"?  When the employer has thousands of
>>times more resources, the freedom in the negotiations is entirely his/hers.

>Pardon me for insinuating myself into this exceedingly polite discussion,
>but hasn't the ever-so-aptly named Roger ever heard about unions?

I sure have.  I also know that, in times past, private armies were 
raised to put them down, that just twenty years before I was born
major violent battles were fought by organizers, and that it took
a fair amount of governmental intervention to stop this.  Recently
the government has again taken up the cause of union-busting.


Roger
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Disaster prone. Was: Titanic &c.
Date: 9 Jan 1993 02:10:07 GMT
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
NNTP-Posting-Host: oas.stanford.edu

Steve Brock reviews:

	TITANIC: AN ILLUSTRATED HISTORY, text by Don Lynch, paintings by
	Ken Marschall.  Hyperion Publishing/Madison Press, 114 Fifth Ave.,
	N.Y., NY  10011.  Illustrated, index, bibliography, list of
	credits.  228 pp., $60.00 cloth.  1-56282-918-1

and quotes:

          	"Husbands and their wives,
          	Little-bitty children lost their lives.
          	It was sad, when the great ship went down
          	To the bottom of the sea."

Another interesting book is **OCEAN LINERS* by Beken of Cowes (for
the photos) and Philip J. Fricket. The White Star Line had three
famous liners, TITANIC, OLYMPIC, and BRITANIC.  The Britannic was
built just after the Titanic went down, and she had many more lifeboats
and a double hull up to the waterline and a series of watertight
bulkheads. Nevertheless she went down in short order when she hit a mine
in the Aegean. The watertight doors failed as the hull distorted, and
there was great loss of life -- partly because a number of lifeboats
were churned up in her propellers which continued to rotate as she went 
down. The third ship, the Olympic, collided with the cruiser, HMS Hawke
in The Solent. If you're thinking of taking an ocean liner passage, check
if there's a Violet Jessop on the passenger list. She was on all three 
vessels when they met their misfortunes.

						RABworm
From: mtaranto@panix.com (Mark Taranto)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Paglia (was: Cross-Writing)
Date: 8 Jan 93 03:01:12 GMT
Organization: The Inner Clique



Heather writes:

>>>I think she's overstating in her typical Paglia furious-Italian manner. 


> Mark Taranto wrote:

>> What do you mean by this? 

> I don't have _Sex, Art, and American Culture_ at hand right now, but
> somewhere in there she describes the conversational style of her family,
> . . . 

Thanks for the explanation.

Steve Dyer adds:

> Ask Paglia.  She's the one pushing this stereotype/archetype.

I'll ask her the next time I'm in Philadelphia.


> I gather you haven't seen her speak in public, either.
> It's an experience.

Actually, I have seen her on TV once.  Her fast and furious behavior was 
evident, but reminded me more of the behavior I associate with speed freaks
or coke addicts, than that which I associate with Italians.

I do look forward to her next TV appearance, though.  I'll be watching
eagerly for Italian behavior.  My brief stay in Venice last summer 
started a fight for dominance between my Italian genes and my Irish ones.


Mark
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Paul Johnson (was Paglia)
Date: 8 Jan 93 18:16:04 GMT
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Originator: news@nimaster

In article <1993Jan8.074913.3098@genie.slhs.udel.edu> starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr) writes:
>In article <1ih01dINNh29@phakt.usc.edu> rhogan@phakt.usc.edu (Ron Hogan) writes:

>}I agree with you that the sample is woefully unrepresentative.

>}As far as our divergence, correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying 'some'
>}where I said 'all'.  So you think he's being selective, and I think he's
>}stacking the deck.

>}I mean, look at his cases.  Rousseau, Shelley, Hemingway.  It's not like
>}he even tried to make things hard for himself by finding somebody who led
>}a nominally conventional life.

>Ibsen was perhaps the most conventional of the lot, or maybe Brecht, and
>they were pretty weird.  You've got our divergence about right, I think.

"Our"?  Who's "we"?  

So, if Johnson writes a book about intellectuals who were social misfits,
and calls it "intellectuals" -- thereby at least insinuating that he 
is making some comment about intellectuals as a class -- why are we wrong
to call him on this bias?

>It's like the Albert Goldman school of
>}intellectual history-- not so much sunlight being the best disinfectant
>}as dragging historical figures through the mud.

>They dragged themselves through the mud.  Johnson just exposed it.

Horseshit.  Johnson told us nothing new about any of these people.  He
did, however, pluck out certain aspects of the lives of these people,
ostensibly to prove some point about the value of their work and about
a larger class of people.  

Keep in mind that it was the quality of their work in the first place
that attracted attention to their lives.

>}I'm willing to change 'all' to 'many of the
>}shapers of modern thought', though.

>What, not "some"?

I'll bid "a few."  

>"True greatness consists in the use of a powerful understanding to enlighten
>oneself and others." - Francois Marie Arouet Voltaire

Right, and isn't diminished if one's an asshole.  

Roger
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Paglia
Date: 10 Jan 93 22:39:52 GMT
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

In article <1993Jan10.214958.10391@athena.mit.edu> kamorgan@athena.mit.edu (Keith Morgan) writes:
>I have been following the Paglia discussion with interest. I have
>refrained from commenting since I have not read *Sexual Personae*;
>however, I have read most of the essays collected in *Sex, Art, and
>American Culture*, attended the MIT lecture reprinted in that book,
>and have seen the divine Miss P on several "serious" interview shows.
>I am reminded of a reviewer's comment that what is attractive about Ms
>Paglia is her desire to communicate but that what follows a Paglia
>banquet is all too often a feeling of hunger. 

I'd only say that SP is a very different book than SAaAC, and you shouldn't
draw too many conclusions about the first from the second, which is best
described as a compilation of the public pop Paglia, and primarily a work
of entertainment.   The review of Halperin's book _One Hundred Years of Homo-
sexuality_ in SAaAC is the litcrit equivalent of a slasher film: you simul-
taneously cringe for the hapless author, while enjoying each stab of the knife.
Halperin's book isn't anywhere as interesting as Paglia's review of it:
it's your generic constructionist manifesto on sexuality, written in
pompous, unintelligible MLA-style prose.

On the other hand, if you've read any Norman O. Brown (Love's Body,
Life Against Death), Paglia's debt to him in SP looms very large.
She's either derivative or synthetic, depending on your allegiance.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
From: hoosiers@carson.u.washington.edu (Mary Loveless)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: "Ex" Catholics (was Re: 92 in rabreview)
Date: 4 Jan 93 21:55:58 GMT
Article-I.D.: shelley.1iabpeINNt8b
Distribution: world
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
NNTP-Posting-Host: carson.u.washington.edu

In article <1JAN199316094845@rigel.tamu.edu> spb0457@rigel.tamu.edu (SubGenius) writes:
>> (Francis Muir) writes:
>> >BTW, there are no ex-Catholics.
>>Being one myself, I prefer the term "recovered Catholic."
>>--Barry
>
>+---------------------------------------SubG-----------------------------------+
>
>	You don't have to excuse yourself to me--we're all liberals
>	here.  I know many lapsed Catholics.  Some of my best friends
>	are lapsed Catholics.
>						--More or less what
>						  Sir Lawrence Oliver
>						  said to Michael Caine
>						  in the film version of
>						  the play _Sleuth_
>
>Actually, with the exception of Jewish Atheists, I think you'll find that 
>reformed Papists are, if one decideds to group it this way, the most
>populous creed in the realm of wordsmiths.  That is assuming that you
>don't allow them to fill in the `religion' blank of the application form with
>`curmudgeon.'
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Source of the
>closing notwithstanding,
>of course,
>Yours etc.,
>
>
>
>
>
>SubGenius

Mary Loveless  hoosiers@carson.u.washington.edu
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All of my opinions are self-righteously my own and **certainly** have
nothing to do with the University of Washington.

"Too much of a good thing can be *wonderful*."  Mae West

"I wonder how I'd look in *Madonna's* underwear."  Zippy the Pinhead
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: SF + PC
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
Date: 4 Jan 93 23:53:52

In article <1993Jan5.070910.17915@netcom.com> dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig) writes:

   jahb@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (JENNIFER A. HEISE):
   >On the other hand, today's science degree serves one useful purpose for the
   >rest of us: it certifies that the holder thereof cannot read, write or reason,
   >and should therefore be provided with secretaries, lab managers, and graduate
   >assistants to do these things for said holder.

   Fairly early in the CS curriculum, one of our professors announced that
   he had two pieces of invaluable advice to prepare us for the world Out There:

   1. Learn to type.

   2. Don't let *anyone* know you can type.

   -----
   Dani Zweig
   dani@netcom.com

     Watership Down:  
     You've read the book.  You've seen the movie.  Now eat the stew!


Bah, humbug.  Science graduates write as well as graduates in English,
and include far less nonsense in what they write.  The literacy level
of the PMLA isn't as high as that of _Science_ or _Nature_.
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: Paglia (was: Cross-Writing)
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 04:19:49 GMT

In article <1993Jan12.015721.5557@cheshire.oxy.edu> rooney@cheshire.oxy.edu (Michael Sean Rooney) writes:

>	Since when is moral autonomy "proper indoctrination"?

Since when is Paglia criticizing "moral autonomy"?

>Or did I
>miss the ABA's latest newspeak bulletin?   

Does the American Booksellers Association have a Newspeak Bulletin? Given
your odd readings here, it does not surprise me that you worry about
missing it.

>	Paglia's position disempowers everyone because it diminishes
>moral responsibility.

This is apparently some kind of joke. Nothing Paglia writes "diminishes
moral responsibility," since nothing she writes excuses rape.

>Men can excuse themselves as "programmed" towards
>"the fun of rape," while women have to properly kowtow to "the elemental
>powers of sexuality."

Please cite the text in which Paglia says men can excuse themselves of
anything.

> This is irrational bullshit demeaning human freedom.

More irony! I do concur, of course, that somebody here is being
irrational. Trying to impose a pro-rape agenda on Paglia's text is not
only irrational; it's also futile.



--Mike

-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"I'm waiting for the one-man revolution
mnemonic@eff.org| The only one that's coming."
(617) 864-0665  |                           
EFF, Cambridge  |                   --Robert Frost 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books