From: gary@colossus.cgd.ucar.edu (Gary Strand)
Subject: Re: European Social democracy vs. American Capitalism
Organization: Climate and Global Dynamics Division/NCAR, Boulder, CO
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 21:16:53 GMT

ab> Alex Bunker
gs> Gary Strand

gs> In any case, all the countries which have your style of socialism have 
gs> other parties of lesser or greater socialistic orientation, those parties 
gs> with a decidedly less leftist bent being ascendant for several years now, 
gs> at least. 

ab> The last european parliamentary elections say the Eurosocialists take
ab> power away from the Christian Demos. CDU in germany is in BIG trouble
ab> and the SDP is gaining popularity etc..

  The EP's future isn't as rosy as it used to be, is it? Anyway, the heyday
  of Eurosocialism was 1980-1984, when you folks had all those peace marches
  and unilateral disarmament (for the US) discussions, and you promoted the
  idea that the US and the USSR were morally equivalent, ie, both were equal-
  ly legitimate governments, and so on. They've finally wised up, to a de-
  gree. It remains to be seen if Europe will shake off its fascination with
  socialism before it has no choice but to do so.

ab> There are more NEO-NAZIs in the USA than Germany.

gs> Can you prove this? In any case, US Nazis have never gotten significant
gs> political power, which can't be said for German Nazis.

ab> I am talking about NOW mr stuck in history.

  So am I. Prove that (per capita) there are more neo-Nazis in the US than
  there are in Germany. No, Jesse Helms is not a neo-Nazi.

gs> The US is declining, as are all other countries, in direct proportion to 
gs> the amount of State control over the economy.

ab> The child poverty rate in the us is 30X that of sweden. and 20X that of
ab> germany. Oh gee you think this is some coincidence? NOT! these governments
ab> have waged a WAR ON POVERTY instead of a war on drugs.

  So has the US since 1965 or so. We've spent *trillions* of dollars on social
  welfare programs. This year alone the cost of these "entitlement" programs 
  will be in excess of 400 *billion* dollars. That's $400,000,000,000. In-
  deed, those areas that receive the greatest welfare assistance (like Wash-
  ington, DC) tend to have the worst poverty and the worst crime. How do
  these facts fit into your equation?

gs> "Wise and well thought out government intervention" is oxymoronic.

ab> Germany and Japan both do it.

  So why is Germany running budget deficits, and why has the Nikkei stock av-
  erage dropped from 39,000 to ~14,600, the greatest single erasure of wealth
  in human history? Hmmm?

ab> Kinnock made one of the biggest seat gains for a political party in a
ab> single election in British history. The cons. just had too strong an
ab> incumbency factor.

  That simple, eh? Tell me, was Kinnock running on the same far-left Labour
  platform as was used in the 1970s, or has all the really bizarre leftist
  stuff been dropped?

ab> She is angry because they LIED on radio free America in order to encourage
ab> 100s of hungarians to needlessly lose their lives in order to be a small
ab> thorn in the USSR side to help the US with geopolitical interests elsewhere
ab> in the world.

  That's realpolitik for you. Anyway, what could the US have done besides of-
  fer token words of encouragement? Ignored the Hungarians? Tell them that
  they had no chance and might as well give up? What?

ab> OH WOW THANKYOU USA FOR NOT ENSLAVING US!!!!!!!!!!

  You're welcome. Most other countries haven't been as generous.

gs> Again, your narrow view prevents you from understanding that when you say
gs> "most countries", you mean "most Western European countries".

ab> Japan, NZ, Australia, Brazil , Chile, Venezuela, Namibia are of course 
ab> ALL european countries. OH my Europe is BIG!

gs> Your last four are rather odd additions to the list. Brazil's Collor is
gs> in *deep* trouble, Chile managed to do quite well under Pinochet, com-
gs> pared to other South American countries run by the military, and Venez-
gs> uela is currently in a decidedly non-democratic state, courtesy Fujimoro.
gs> And why do you include Namibia? Why not include Cuba, Angola, Somalia?

ab> HA HA HA HA HA HA AH AH AH HA HA HA HA!!!!!! Fujimori President of Vene-
ab> suela HOH!HO!HO!HO! HA HA AH! Fujimori is President of PERU! Are you by
ab> any chance Dan Quayle posting under a pseudonym?

  My mistake. I forgot to revive with Vivarin. Anyway, no need to get snotty.
  Your own posts could use some heavy proofreading.

ab> I was referring to the socialist OPPOSITION in Brazil whose presidential 
ab> candidate Lula de Silva got 49% in the presidential election, and with
ab> Collars troubles is set to take power next time.

  The case is really that the socialists are prepared to step in because Col-
  lor has screwed up and pissed off the Brazilians, not that Brazil wants a
  heavy dose of socialism, right? Indeed, the Brazilians are so angry that
  they're about ready to take anyone over Collor.

ab> In Chile the left is ascendant.

  BFD.

ab> Namibia has recently got its independence and has had a UN sponsored el
ab> election which the left won by a landslide.(SWAPO)

  BFD.

ab> The Social Democrats also won the first free election in Nigeria, Africa's
ab> most populous nation.

  BFD.

  Quite frankly, what Chile, Namibia and Nigeria do to themselves is of no
  concern to me. They're free to screw themselves all they want. When you're
  reduced to touting ex-and-current-3rd-world countries to make your point,
  you've dropped pretty far.

--
Gary Strand                      Opinions stated herein are mine alone and are
strandwg@ncar.ucar.edu            not representative of NCAR, UCAR, or the NSF
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