From: aref@Tehran.Stanford.EDU (Modda'iyeh har hAzer va Vakileh har ghAyeb)
Subject: Re: Fundamentals WUZ Re: More questions for Anwar Saleh
Organization: VezArateh Addliyyeh 
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 16:17:55 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.172930.20022@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com> eshghi@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com (Kave Eshghi) writes:
>
>No, Muslims are not a bunch of fanatical half wits. At least, no more than
>Christians, Jews, Marxists, Baha'is etc. You didn't get my point: in my view,
>what Ahmad did is incitement of religious hatred. All belief
>systems have 'ridiculous' tenets, at least from the point of view of
>those who do not subscribe to them. We must learn to respect other people's
>beliefs, however ridiculous they may sound to us, because the alternative is
>sectarian war on a hundred fronts (evidence for this claim is easy to
>come by in Iran, Middle East, Ireland,...)

Remember, I did not say that Muslims are fanatical. I said 
*some* Muslims are so, NOT BECAUSE OF THEIR BELIEF or CLAIMED BELIEF
IN ISLAM, but BECAUSE OF THEIR ACTIONS. Such actions might or might not
be "Islamic" per say, but in either case, they take place under the 
flag of Islam. And you are right. This would apply to all religions.

So maybe we can draw a conclusion: the problem is not with the different
belief systems, religions, ideologies AS MUCH AS IT IS with the followers
and implementors of those ideologies. The problem is with us humans. 
Does this make sense?


>When I say respect, I don't mean that you should agree with others' beliefs,
>or even refrain from criticizing them. But there is a world of difference
>between engaging in serious discussion of religious or intellectual
>differences, and lampooning other people's beliefs in the crass and offensive
>way that Ahmad did.

You are right. There is a world of difference. But freedom of expression
should allow that. Anybody can say anything essentially. If something is
being said about group "X", if group "X" has a real agenda and some
minimal level of confidence in themselves, they should not be too bothered
by disrespectful comments from someone else. If group "X" has some 
shortcoming in some area, then they should straighten out their facts
and beliefs. 
"dar biAbAn gar beh show-gheh ka'abeh khAhi zad ghadam
	sarzanesh-hA gar konad khAreh moghilAn, gham makhor"

>Notice that as a direct result of Ahmad's postings, there now exist the
>newsgroup 'alt.muslim_women.wanted'. I don't know about you, but I feel
>deeply insulted by the humiliation of Muslim women in this way.

How come it is OK for one of the brothers to ask for a "good Muslim
girl to marry him" on the network but it is not so for a newsgroup
for that purpose?
(I don't think this group exists; I can't get it - I wouldn't vote
for it anyways, he can use alt.personals)

>By the way, I don't have any religious affiliations. My intention was not
>to defend this or that particular religion, rather to point out
>the consequences of venting your anger at a particular regime by insulting
>millions of decent human beings.

I don't think I am angry with any particular regime. I am disappointed by
all of the regimes who have ever ruled Iran, with the exception of maybe
Mossadegh's government and that of Amir Kabir. But then we are all well 
aware of their fates.

I can't imagine why millions of people would be insulted if they are told:

-that it is not good to impose
-that they should stop fighting over "my belief is better than yours"
-that they should realize the common values and bonds that they have and
 expand on those
-that they should realize that just because they think something is right
 does not mean it is right for everyone else too
-that others have a right to live and have their own opinions

But then again, I don't think you represent millions of people. 

Aref

Newsgroups: soc.culture.iranian