From: cw21219@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Crying Freeman)
Subject: Re: Ken's 4-Hit Touch of Death (and Bison's scissor...)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 00:26:15 GMT

jbw@ponder.csci.unt.edu (WEST JASON BRUCE) writes:

>In article <BzD0E9.GoH@news.cso.uiuc.edu> cw21219@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Crying Freeman) writes:
>>jbw@ponder.csci.unt.edu (WEST JASON BRUCE) writes:
>>
>>>In article <tmorris.724503021@bruny> tmorris@bruny.cc.utas.edu.au (Tim Morris) writes:
>>>>>calling Bison "cheap" when Ken/Ryu obviosly have more unbalanced abilities.
>>
>>Why do you insist that only Ken/Ryu have the ability to kill you w/ combos?
>>There are plenty of characters who can do this. I play Guile and
>>know that if you land a four fierce combo on your opponent, you
>>can do another and they'll usually be either dead, or left with
>>a sliver of energy. IMO Guile's combos are second only to Ken's.

>  Plenty? - Ryu/Ken/Guile is plenty?  Anyway, the point is Bison doesn't have
>that ability so he gets some cool moves.

I said plenty of characters have combos which is true. I didn't say only
Guile/Ken/Ryu have them. Over half the characters have combos.

>[observations deleted]
>>>>manouvers, it's just that any other character that relied on these
>>>>techniques to win would also be flamed just as Bison is.  If someone
>>
>>>   Everything you mentioned can be mimicked by most other characters.
>>>Ken can short kick/throw.  Or HK then throw.  But you can reverse this
>>>so you don't call it cheap.  You don't know how to reverse Bison - so
>>>you call him cheap...it's that simple.  In the old days of classic
>>>when ticking started it was "SOOOO CHEAP!" - then counter throwing and
>>>counter ticking evolved...and everyone "ok, that's cool".  
>>>   It's the same thing with Bison.
>>
>>I personally don't feel anything is cheap. But I do feel that your
>>arguments that Ken/Ryu have some sort of unfair advantage is ridiculous.

>REREAD, and THINK this time:
>>>>>   Talk about missing the damn point.  FOr the last time I am whining about
>>>>>nothing.  I am simply stating the lack of balance in Ken/Ryus ability to
>>>>>kill you off one hit.  Not "take half your energy" - but kill you. And Ryu's

>Did I say something was cheap?  Did I say there was an unfair advantage?
>Is english your second language?  What the hell.

I just said that I don't personally feel anything is cheap. I did NOT
accuse you of complaining about cheapness. You WERE complaining about
game balance (which I believe generally means some sort of unfair advantage)
Why don't you REREAD and THINK. 

Here's a quote from you: 

"Ken/Ryu obviosly have more unbalanced abilities."
Sounds like you're saying they're unbalanced, or in other words, having
some sort of advantage. It also sounds like you are whining.

>REREAD what I told you to REREAD above.  You will notice the phrase "For
>the last time I am whiming about nothin."  I'm sorry you are incapable of
>reading.

You state over and over again that you are not whining, but in you
posts you keep arguing that Ken/Ryu are unbalanced characters.

It sure sounds like you are complaining. I remember you posting how
it was unbalanced that Ryu could HK over you and throw you.

>>>>challenges with Ken, then in the back of your mind you're wary of
>>>>the 4-hitter, bun Ken will rarely land this combo on you if you're
>>>>any good.  Sure, it's not balanced that he has the potential.  But
>>
>>>   Now THAT is funny.  Ken/Ryu won't hit you with a flying fierce "if you're
>>>any good" - but Bison can flame/throw you.  Sorry man, Bison's ticks are
>>>*much* easier to avoid.  With Ken/Ryu that one mistake can cost you 
>>>the round.  With Bison you get to try to reverse, then try again, and
>>>again, and again.
>>
>>I've played Bison a bit, and no you CAN'T throw after he torpedoes. There
>>is a split second delay, even when you are in the corner. Try it. Play
>>Bison, do a fierce torpedo into your opponent in the corner and while you
>>are torpedoing, hold the joystick straight up. You will usually (not ALWAYS)
>>be able to jump up, avoiding the throw.

>  READ DAMMIT!  HOW HARD IS IT!?!  I said if Bison flames and THROWS YOU then
>you suck...not that you should be able to throw him always.  BUT, if he

First of all, this doesn't make sense. If he flames and THROWS YOU then
you suck, but you shouldn't be able to counter him consistently? 

>does a strong flame (which is the only one he can throw you after) then
>you can easily reverse throw.

Well, Bison can throw you after a fierce torpedo too but that's not my point.

My point is that Bison isn't as easy to beat as you make it seem. 


>  And, he can jump in the corner, but so what?  He is a sitting duck floating
>above you - pick your favorite move.

If they were trying to throw you, they'll "whiff" with a fierce or strong 
attack, after which you can hit them. I'm not saying that this is a foolproof
method, but it beats being thrown every time you torpedo someone into the
corner...
 


>>Also, how do you avoid the torpedo when you are on the ground in the middle
>>of the screen, say, after a throw?

>   If you have fallen you must suffer an extra 4 ticks of energy from Bison.
>Much like with Chun Li's lightning kick or Honda's hundred hands or Blanka's
>electricity.  All these moves make you take damage when you fallen - unless
>you dp out of it or something (which you can do to the flame also).

>>>>with Bison, the cheese is flying thick and fast from the word go
>>>>until the end of the round, no matter who wins.  I'm just thankful
>>
>>>   Do me a favor and attakc Bison from the proper distance with flying 
>>>roundhouse kicks.  Tell me how poerful he seems.  Throw in a couple
>>>throws after a blocked kick.  Bison sucks.
>>
>>What's this crap about Bison not being able to counter throws? He's
>>got one of the longest range and powerful throws, IMO. When I play
>>Bison, I counter throw better than I do with Guile. 

>  You truly are incapable of reading arn't you?  I said repeatedly jump in
>on Bison with roundhouse kicks and tell me how powerful he seems. [meaning
>this renders him useless].  Then, when Bison is trying to gain distance
>and is worried about position you toss in a throw.  Of course he can
>counter throw you - everything can be countered.

First of all, you did not specify what character to jump in repeatedly
with. Secondly, this does not render him useless. He actuall does have
an aerial defense (crouching fierce), but the timing's a bit tricky.

>>>>that I can pick Guile or Ryu and beat most Bison's, imagine what
>>>>it's like for the intermediate players who don't stand a chance.
>>
>>>   Any half-decent Z can kill Bison.  And any intermediate other character
>>>should be able to beat an *intermediate* Bison.  Now, if the Bison is 
>>>*good* - then you will have to be *good*.  That's how it works with
>>>everybody.  But I can honestly say I've never been beaten by a Bison of
>>>less skill than I.
>>
>>I have played Bison and beaten players more "skilled" than me. Heck,
>>I've probably played Bison only a total of 20-30 times ever, and have
>>beaten people way more "skill" and experience with their characters.
>>Why? He's not that hard to play. If you know how to scissor kick,
>>know when to use the torpedo properly, then you are a *good* Bison.

>  The guys you played, by definition, didn't know how to play v. Bison then.
>He is such a boring a shitty character that most people don't play him -
>so most people don't play against him.  

I agree with this. I think his main drawback is that it just isn't really
satisfying to win with Bison.  He is boring and shitty, but he is also
powerful. 

["CHEESE" description deleted]

>   WHAT!  Have actually ever died due to this?  This trap is probably about
>1/50th as difficult to get out of as a Ryu fireball trap.  If you are
>really getting desperate and "don't have time to jump or anything" then
>PUNCH!  You get nabbed a few times but eventually you will nail him in the
>head.  When you do, try not to get into this rare position again.

I have seen Blanka masters just kept completely trapped in the middle
of the screen for entire games. 

I'd say it's about equally as difficult to get out of as the fireball trap.
Even if you do punch, you'll probably as you said get nabbed a few times,
but these few times could significantly drain your life. Also, the position
is NOT that rare. Bison can just THROW you into the center of the play area
and start CHEESING you...

 
>>Yes, you can dragon punch out of it, but what if you are not Ken/Ryu?
>>This is especially effective against Blanka. The torpedo is fast enough
>>that you do NOT have time to stop it when it is coming back at you.

>   So you have died from this?  Since you "can't get out".  PUNCH!  Or, better
>yet - roll at his ass as he is leaving your body.

I've never seen the ball chasing Bison's flame, but if you do manage to
"roll at his ass" let me know...


>>That is the true "CHEESE". I myself didn't believe it until I actually
>>saw it done, but yes it is UGLY!

>   Doesn't work man.  

Obviously, you've never seen it done properly...



>>>And this skill to damage ratio is crap:
>>>  How hard is a 3 hitter stun combo with Ryu?  It took me about an hour
>>>to get down.  It takes a lot longer than that for Bison to learn
>>>spacing/timing and all that stuff for his moves.
>>
>>It took me a few days to "master Bison". I've been playing Ken on and off
>>for a few months (never seriously) but I STILL can't do the four hit
>>combo. I bet there are lots of Ken players who have been playing the
>>game since the classic SF2 came out and still can't do four hit combos
>>consistently.

>  YOU ARN'T A MASTER BISON - get that into your head.  Being able to do
>some brain-dead stuff back and forth does not make you a master.  Being
>a master means you play well against all characters under different
>circumstances (at the VERY least).  You beat master Kens/Ryus/Guiles
>with your Bison?

How would you know whether or not I am or am not a master Bison? Actually
I'll admit I am not, but using Bison's inherent "powers", I CAN beat
master Ken/Ryus. Also, I do not rely on the brain-dead cheese to win
matches. That is an effective technique against certain characters,
but he does have many other effective moves.

In addition, Bison has a distinct advantage over
many other "favored" characters such as Sagat and Blanka.


>>Your arguments are just totally ridiculous. In terms of becoming a "master"
>>Ken/Ryu are probably the hardes to master. The problem with Bison is
>>that there are too many scrubs making him look bad. The favorite character

>   Please.  Ken/Ryus have been around since SFI (the moves anyway).
>I would say Ken,Ryu, and Guile are the *only* characters that HAVE BEEN MASTERED
>by anyone.  Maybe a few others.  Now, does that make those characters harder
>to master or easier?

Ken/Ryu/Guile I would say ARE the hardest to master. I would say Chun Li
and Blanka are probably the easiest...

Here we have masters of all characters except maybe Balrog and Sagat.
Balrog hasn't been mastered because he is totally lame. Besides, even
a master Balrog would be smeared by most other characters...

Our Sagat players are getting pretty close to becoming masters...

>>of scrubs is definitely Bison. You just have to remember, these are the
>>same players that can't hit you with an aerial roundhouse if you were
>>just standing there. They learn how to torpedo and come in with a feeling
>>of power. 

>    And they're a joke.

Yes they are, but the Bison scrub would almost always beat the Ken scrub.

Your posts tend to be a statement of "I'm not whining" and then rantings
about how Ken/Ryu are unbalanced and how Bison is a pushover.
Before you ask me to learn to read, perhaps you should learn to follow
what you state...



>>>Ciao...
>>
>>
>>>                                              - Jason
>>
>>-- 
>> Kenneth C. Wang	| University Of Illinois Champaign-Urbana	
>> 			| Internet: c-wang@uiuc.edu			


-- 
 Kenneth C. Wang	| University Of Illinois Champaign-Urbana	
 			| Internet: c-wang@uiuc.edu			
Newsgroups: alt.games.sf2