From: garrick@kpc.com (Garrick Le)
Subject: Re:[POL] Reply to Giao Tien Vu
Organization: Kubota Pacific Computer
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 23:03:29 GMT


Well,before soc.culture.vietnamese.politics is created,I guess I just have
to do it here.

giao@informix.com (Giao Tien Vu) wrote:
>In article <1992Aug13.202308.5345@kpc.com> garrick@kpc.com (Garrick Le) writes:
>>
>>giao@informix.com (Giao Tien Vu) wrote:
>>
deleted
>>
>>>That's pure speculation.  How do you know that it would happen?  Most of the
>>>HO people I have talked to in the last few years have one common agreement:
>>>life has been better in the last few years.  And that was without lifting the
>>>embargo.
>>
>> On the contrary,most of the HO and ODP folks I have talked to definitely
>>think otherwise.There could have been more relaxing ruling for business
>>venture but it is just a disguise to foreign countries so that the embargo
>>would be lifted.How do we know if the VC gov't would not revert back to
>their old selves once the sanction is ended.On the same basis,I can declare
>>your statement pure speculation.
>> There is a saying that I have found to be absolutely truthful: "DO NOT LISTEN
>>TO WHAT THE COMMUNISTS SAY,JUST WATCH CLOSELY WHAT THEY HAVE DONE" or originally
>>in Vietnamese " Du+`ng nghe nhu+~ng gi` Co^.ng Sa~n no'i ma` hay~ nhi`n ky~
>>nhu+~ng gi` Co^.ng Sa~n la`m".I feel sorry that some people are gullible enough
>>to fall for commies trap.

>Who fell into the Communist trap?  Through his comments, Garrick could
>not deny my main point: life has gotten better.  He used the same old
>"it's a Communist trick" claim and accuse me of speculation!

 Giao,please remember that you were first in judging my statement "pure
speculation" on the basis that you have talked to some HO people.Using
the same way of deduction,since most HO and ODP people I talked to
have different opinions regarding the living conditions in VN,I can
rightfully say that your statement is purely speculative.This is NOT
an accusation by any means so don't be too defensive.Besides,who started
it in the first place?
 BTW,have you seen the HO interview on Vietnamese Liberty TV the last few
days?All the HO people there have expressed their frustrations and hatred
towards the VC gov't for torturing them in re_education camps and for
making their living conditions miserable even after being released.They
also pointed out that they and their children have no future whatsoever
in VN.Moreover,they stated that the education system in VN has
deteriorated beyond belief due to communist brainwashing and their
ineffective education system.This consequently makes it easier for them
to conquer and govern VN.
 After this,I really wonder what kind of HO people Giao talked to...

>deleted

>>
>>>>  I really wanted to stop this thread but I can't help elaborating further!
>>>>Look at what happened in China as a good example.After all these years of
>>>>foreign aids and economic assistance,even being the most favorite trade
>>>>nation granted by the Bush administration,how is red China doing? How
>>>>democratic has it become?Tienamen (spelling ?) Square is the most eloquent
>>>>example of the state of democracy in China.Just a bloodbath of inspired
>>>>students and people whose wishes were really simple ,one lots of us overhere
>>>>have taken for granted ,namely democracy.
>>>>The thoughts of it make me cringe,but VN might as well have another
>>>>Tienamen Square in the future.I honestly hope that we will have a
>>>>better future than that,but as of now,the situation in VN seems
>>>>very pathetic at best.
>>>>
>>
>>>But, you cannot deny that the living standard of the Chinese people inside
>>>China has improved markedly.  My main criticism of what happened at
>>>Tiananmen was that the students wanted to move too far too fast.  They
>>>forced the Chinese Communists into a corner.  Remember that Zhao Ziyang had
>>>to beg the students to stop demonstrating before things went too far?
>>>That scene was pitiful.  Here was the man who supposedly was the most
>>>powerful person in China almost in tears.  Chai Ling, a student leader,
>>>actually recalled that the more moderate students were ready to back down.
>>>Yet the radicals were pressing for even more pressure on the Chinese
>>>government.  Obviously, that was a mistake.  The end was a tragedy.  Zhao
>>>Ziyang lost his job.  Many students were killed.
>>>
>
>> Please show me that "living standard of the Chinese people inside China has
>>improved markedly" is true.
>
>Read every business article concerning China on this planet Earth including
>those from Taiwan.  The information is in there.

>>Do you know what the GDP per capita of China is?

>Yes, it's definitely better than 10 years ago.  If you like I can dig up
>for you.

Please do dig it up for us .Also don't forget to take into account the
inflationary effect on the GDP numbers,i.e a $100 10 years ago with an
average inflation rate of 14.4% would be equivalent to roughly $400 today.
Don't forget that it has to be a significant improvement to qualify as
a marked improvement.Moreover,note that an improvement from almost zero
to $100 GDP per capita still is not acceptable.Who can sustain in
decent standard with an income of $100 per year?
Thanks beforehand.

>> BTW,you sound more sympathetic to Zhao Ziyang than to the killed students.
>>You appear to think that the Chinese commies gov't was the victim rather
>>than the aggressor. Let me quote you again "My main criticism of what
>>happened at Tiananmen was that the students wanted to move too far too fast.
>>They forced the Chinese Communists into a corner."
>> Remember that democracy and freedom can not be compromised!
>
>I did not insult the students.  I merely pointed out that they were unwise
>in dealing with the Communist government.  Intoxicated with the seeming
>power that they got from the "people power," they forgot that they had
>not the support of the Chinese people across China (except in a few
>big cities).  That was a terrible mistake and many paid for it.  I only
>looked at the events from a realistic sense.  The analysis might sound
>cold, but you can deny that it's correct.

Even if the Chinese students made a mistake,was it excusable for the
Chinese gov't to carry out their massacre? I am afraid Giao was just
stating a pretext for the Chinese regime 's massive killing in
Tienanmen!

>>The Chinese government's action was drastic and shameful.  However,
>>note that no government would allow something like that to happen.
>>Sooner or later, the government would clamp down on the demonstration
>>before it went out of control.  In Vietnam, the South Vietnamese soldiers
>>fired upon the Buddhist crowd in 1965, killing hundreds of people.  In
>>the USA, the police and national guard would come and arrest (not shoot
>>with live bullets - with the exception of Kent State) the demonstrators.
>>A more democratic government would change policies to reflect what the
>>people want, but it will not allow a rebellion (which Tiananmen is).

>>
>> Here in democratic societies,no such thing would happen in the first place
>>since freedom and democracy are for real,so Giao 's premise is nonsense!
>
>Huh?  You apparently forget that if you had participated in a post-King-
>trial a few months (ideologically I don't think you would, but I just use
>as an example), you'd have chance to be handcuffed and thrown in jail for
>a night.  A demonstration, when out-of-control, is always dangerous,
>even in a democracy.

Are you implying that the Chinese gov't is democratic,Giao???
As far as the Rodney King 's trial goes and all the subsequent
outbreaks of violence and lootings,it is shameful that they happened.
All those people were just taking advantage of the situation to go
around shooting innocent people and robbing businesses.On the other
hand,most of the demonstrations happened peacefully so it was not
dangerous by any means.The dangers were the robberies and lootings
not the demonstrations.Don't confuse between the two!


>>>I do hope that a Tiananmen would never happen in Vietnam.  We have had
>>>enough revolutions.  All revolutions turned out to be disappointments.
>>>It's time to try evolution for a change.
>>
>> What a statement! " All revolutions turned out to be disappointments."
>>Remember the American revolution against Britain for Independence,the
>>Vietnamese revolution against French rule !

>OK, whose troops were at the battlefields of DDie^.n Bie^n Phu??  Didn't
>the Communists turned that successful revolution into a big disappointment
>to the Vie^.t Minh followers?  How about Ta^y So+n revolution in the 18th
>century?  It had so much promise in creating a modern state in Vietnam.
>Yet what happened?  How about the coup of 1963 in South Vietnam?  Did it
>usher in a new South Vietnam state?  Or it merely was a way for the
>generals to come into power?
 OK,well said and point taken.
 Yes,some revolutions did turn out to be disappointment.However,DO NOT
call ALL of them disappointment since such a view is very wrong and
offending .At the same time DO NOT consider ALL "ideologies"
harmless or less harmful than disasters even in Giao 's "revised" words,
it is disaster of the mind that he "meant" since communism is the root
cause of disastrous thinking,of deterioration of moral values and
loss of cultural heritage,just to name a few.

Garrick

Disclaimer: All opinions expressed are mine.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.vietnamese