From: hillel@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (hillel.e.markowitz)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: er,excuse me
Date: 23 Jul 92 20:17:42 GMT
Organization: AT&T Federal Systems

In article <139300.2A6E73FD@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Harvey.Smith@p0.f1.n7002.z8.FIDONET.ORG (Harvey Smith) writes:
>
> RA=>The "Messianic Jews" are a more subtle group taking on
> RA=>a more outwardly Jewish appearance to hide their acceptance
> RA=>of the tenets of Christianity.  At the core, they're not
> RA=>much different from Jews for Jesus.
>
>We are brothers in the Lord thats for sure Robert, but you are missing the 
So it is admitted that they are xians.

>point altogether.  We are Jews period.  You don't wish to deal with that, we 

who claim to be Jewish. (Those who try to talk about "born Jewish"
know that is not the point.)

>never said we did not accept the biblical tenents of Christianity, and every 
>one, Jew or gentile knows well before they come to our conferences or Shules 
>that we in fact are JEWS who believe YESHUA is the Messiah, and that we 

That is that they are people who claim that xianity is a Jewish
belief.

>BELIEVE in Biblical Holidays in stead of Church holidays that have their 
>roots in paganisn... 

Note that here he admits that it is a group of xians taking on a
Jewish appearance.  Just because someone goes to church on Rosh
Hashono instead of (?) xmas does not make it any more Jewish.  It
just makes it a sect of xianity.

>
>We try to hide nothing.  You are a litary deceitful person.  We do not make 
>any innuendos or any statements that we are even a part of Rabbinic Judaism. 
>And we are quick to state that Rabbinic Judaism is only one sect of Judaism, 
>not the only sect. Just to name a few:  Karaites, Messianic Jews, Hasidim, 
>etc.  All are legitimate sects of Biblical Judaism...

Note the attempt to claim that hassidim are not Jews just as
karaites and mj are not Jews (in belief not necessarily in birth).

>
> RA=>For example, the founder of the "Union of Messianic Jewish
> RA=>Congregations" and pastor of a Rockville, Maryland "Messianic
> RA=>Jewish [sic]" congregation is an ordained Presbyterian minister
> RA=>and was born of a Jewish father and a gentile mother.  
>
>Since you are speaking about Dan Juster, i will reply, since he is a 
>personal friend of mine, and i served in executive capacity on the board of 
>the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations.
>
>Your information is incorrect and false, and you would do well to get your 
>facts straight before you make accusations.
>
>The UMJC was created by 20 Messianic Jewish Congregations independent of Dan 
>Juster.  Dan was called to be the first president by the Union of the 
>organization.  Soon after my shule joined the movement, and i became the 
>executive secretary of the Movement..
>
>You are right Dan Juster's father is Jewish, and according to Torah, the 
>seed of promise is passed via  Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to their male seed 
>forever, and the rite called Bris, or circumcision is the seal of the 
>everlasting covenant between G-d and Israel.
>
>Since Dan is not a part of Rabbinic Judaism, and since Rabbinic Judaism is 

That is right, he is not Jewish.  The reform as well would say this
because only those children of a Jewish father who are raised
Jewish and accept Judaism are considered as Jewish by the Reform
movement.

>false in its teaching that the covenant proceeds via a Jewish mother thereby 
>violating the covenant of Moses, and Abraham...

Baloney slipped in.

>
>Dan is more Jewish than those in Rabbinic Judaism who do not have a Jewish 
>Father.  However in Messianic Judaism, both lineage from Father and Mother 

Nonsense.  There is no such thing as a "partial" Jew.  One is
either Jewish or not Jewish.  Thus, a convert, with no Jewish
parents is as Jewish as someone with two Jewish parents.

>are acceptable, as well as it is in Reformed Rabbinic Judaism..

Again nonsense.  THe Reform movement does not *automatically* treat
the child of a mixed marriage.  The child must be raised Jewish and
accept Judaism explicitly.  This is analogous to conversion and the
argument with the Orthodox and Conservative movements is over what
constitutes a valid "acceptance".

>
> RA=>unless he converted to Judaism, he's still a gentile.]  Other
> RA=>movement leaders have ties to the Assemblies of God church,
> RA=>and even the Jews for Jesus movement.
>
>NOPE wrong again Robert.   According to Torah, Dan is very much Jewish and a 

Once the Torah was given at Sinai, the definition was from the
mother.  According to the Torah, he is not now and never was
Jewish.  In any case, he is now an xian by belief and practice so
it doesn't matter what he is by birth.

>direct descendant of Abraham... No need to convert to Rabbinic Judaism which 
>is incorrect in its lineage....
>
>Since you mentioned the AOG church, it would be proper for me to respond 
>here.  Since the AOG is not a denomination but a movement, there are many 
>folks from many different backgrounds.  Each Church and or congregation is 
>independent and Sovereign, but gather with the parent organization for World 
>evangelism...  NO secret there either Robert.... However, the majority of MJ 
>congregations are non affiliated with anyone but the UMJC which itself is an 
>independent umbrella organization, with its members still maintaining their 
>independence and sovereignty...
>

but they are all xians holding to the tenets of the church and
following the common beliefs of the umbrella organization.  For
example would you find a Roman Catholic or Unitarian church joining.

> RA=>nonsense.  As former "Messianic" Larry Levey writes:
> RA=>  "... When one looks beyond the seemingly self-assured 
> RA=>salesman's
>
>Now that you mentioned Jews for Judaism, and Larry Levey who came, saw, and 
>retreated.  Was never an MJ, but a deceptive person, who could cause no 

He cam, He saw, He was fooled at dirst, He woke up.

>strife by attempting to infiltrate the movement..
>The Jews for Judaism is also very deceptive, in that though they know full 
>well the apologetics involved with the New Covenant, they still attempt to 

THey know full well the apologetics used by the xians and also know
that they are not true.

>teach these false assumptions as you have, knowing full well they are 
>reconcilable, but don't tell their unwary MJ beginner that...

Reconcilable as long as you first make the assumption that xianity
== Judaism.  Once you realize that this is not true, all alledged
claims fall flat.

>
>
>So now that you have been thoroughly debunked, care to continue?  (grin) 
>
>
>--  
>Harvey Smith - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
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