HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: 003166j@axe.acadiau.ca (JASON WILLIAM JARVIS)
Subject: Re: Power of races
Organization: Acadia University
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 17:20:54 GMT

In article <C17u11.1r9@cck.coventry.ac.uk> mjw@cck.coventry.ac.uk (Alien) writes:
>From: mjw@cck.coventry.ac.uk (Alien)
>Subject: Re: Power of races
>Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 18:00:36 GMT

>Someone was wondering whether Frodo and Aragorn knew that Gandalf was a
>Maia. Well doesn't it say somewhere in LOTR that Frodo pauses and asks 
>himself "What *was* Gandalf?" so at least at that point he did not know.
>There are no hints that I recall on the state of Aragorn's knowledge so
>speculation is free.

	I think I started the issue about whether Frodo and Aragorn knew 
what Gandalf really was.  Although I can't remember where I read it, the 
quote does sound familiar.  Hopefully someone can tell us where in LotR it 
was said.

>However Gandalf himself says upon his return from the fight with the Balrog
>that " I have remembered much that I had forgotten and forgotten much that was
>familiar" (or WTTE). This causes me at any rate to think that Gandalf himself
>didn't know he was a Maia (consciously) although he speaks of "returning".It
>is very like what one would expect from one who has a spiritual journey of 
>some kind....

	Perhaps Gandalf had forgotten that he was a Maiar, rather than not 
knowing? After all, how could someone forget something that important, 
especially with his knowledge.  Besides, he's got Elrond and Galadriel to 
remind him.  In regards to a spiritual journey, who's to say that his spirit 
wasn't returned to Valinor, if only briefly, between the time that he killed 
the Balrog and he was picked up by Gwaihir?

>Also Saruman doesn't seem to remember the power of the "west" (Valinor)-
> he says "The West has failed" ,he no longer considers it 'real' being
> absorbed in mundane, 'middle-earthly' concerns.

	Who knows?	

> Any comments?

> Matt.
> 
>-- 
>|Matt now has a .signature file. Cor! aren't computers wonderful!|
>|So it's goodbye from me and it's auf wiedersehen von mich.      |

					Jason
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: librik@cory.Berkeley.EDU (David Librik)
Subject: Re: Searching informations about Elves Runes
Organization: University of California, at Berkeley
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 10:23:23 GMT

f23@bombadil.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Fiupso-DESS ) writes:

>Does anybody knows where I can find more infos about the Elves Runes ? 
>I found that the Appendix of the LOTR was not detailed enough.

Yes!  Get the book AN INTRODUCTION TO ELVISH, edited by Jim Allan.  (It's
published by Bran's Head books in England; if you contact a British bookstore
they should be able to get it for you.)  In that book are three very good
articles about the origins and use of the "tengwar", the Elvish writing,
and one on the "certh", the Runes you see in a few places in the Lord of
the Rings.

This book is fifteen years old and still the best thing ever written on
Tolkien's invented languages. Ruth Noel's book on Middle-Earth languages is
really pathetic compared to this.

- David Librik
librik@cory.Berkeley.edu
From: tiverson@lynx.dac.northeastern.edu (Thor Iverson)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: References to Tolkien by Led Zeppelin
Date: 27 Jan 93 03:08:25 GMT
Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA

In article <christea.43.728045907@dhhalden.no> christea@dhhalden.no (CHRISTER ANDR
 JAKOBSEN) writes:

>Indeed it is from Ramble On, but to me it sounds more like

And, in reference to the original question:  we already talked about this
one when the question was first asked.

>		"In the darkest depths of Mordor, I met a girl so fair.
>		 -but Gollum, and the evil one, crept up and swept away 
>		 with her."

"...slipped away with her."

Thor Iverson
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: mjw@cck.coventry.ac.uk (Alien)
Subject: Re: Power of races
Organization: Coventry University
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 18:00:36 GMT

Someone was wondering whether Frodo and Aragorn knew that Gandalf was a
Maia. Well doesn't it say somewhere in LOTR that Frodo pauses and asks 
himself "What *was* Gandalf?" so at least at that point he did not know.
There are no hints that I recall on the state of Aragorn's knowledge so
speculation is free.

However Gandalf himself says upon his return from the fight with the Balrog
that " I have remembered much that I had forgotten and forgotten much that was
familiar" (or WTTE). This causes me at any rate to think that Gandalf himself
didn't know he was a Maia (consciously) although he speaks of "returning".It
is very like what one would expect from one who has a spiritual journey of 
some kind....
Also Saruman doesn't seem to remember the power of the "west" (Valinor)-
 he says "The West has failed" ,he no longer considers it 'real' being
 absorbed in mundane, 'middle-earthly' concerns.

 Any comments?

 Matt.
 
-- 
|Matt now has a .signature file. Cor! aren't computers wonderful!|
|So it's goodbye from me and it's auf wiedersehen von mich.      |

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: S2A0000 <S2A0@UNB.CA>
Subject: Dorwinion (sp?)
Organization: The University of New Brunswick
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 19:34:37 GMT

 I seem to remember in The Hobbit that the wood elves were drinking wine
from "the gardens of Dorwinion (sp?). I haven't seen any other mention
of Dorwinion nor can I find it on any of the maps.

 Can anybody tell me where Dorwinion is located and what sort of people
live there? (The name sounds elvish to me.)
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Hobbits in the Undying Lands
Date: 28 Jan 1993 18:52:12 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

>In summary, I don't think that having owned the ring for a short period
>confers immortality on you.  I think that ownership of the ring makes
>the years in which you own it not count against your age.

As another argument for this, think about what it would mean if the
ring granted immortality.  It would include the power to take away
the gift of Illuvatar.  Defeating death is no easy thing in Middle
Earth, at least not if you're not an elf.

And yes, continually possessing the Ring does also take away the gift
of Illuvatar.  However, you eventually become a wraith, a kind of death
in life.  Therefore, I don't think this argues against my base point.
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Beren and Luthien
Date: 28 Jan 1993 07:53:21 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In article <s4q3m8+@rpi.edu> johnsc3@rpi.edu writes:
>The second is purely speculation, and I am curious about the feelings of others on this -- is Sting, the 'sword' carried by Bilbo and later Frodo, actually Angcrist (Sp?), the dagger which Beren took from Celegorm and later cut the Simaril from the Iron Crown with?  I have been unable to find any information either for or against this theory (it is possible that I have missed something in something that Christopher Tolkien has published).
>


I believe that Angcrist broke when Beren got greedy and tried to take a
second Silmaril with it.
From: reid@ucs.indiana.edu (Frank Reid)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: tunes for Tolkien songs
Keywords: road
Date: 26 Jan 93 21:37:45 GMT
Organization: Indiana University

to alt.fan.tolkien and rec.music.filk--

I've always loved the poem from _Lord of the Rings_:

   The road goes ever on and on,
   Down from the door where it began.
   Now far ahead the road has gone,
   And I must follow if I can.

   Pursuing it with weary feet
   Until it joins some larger way
   Where many paths and errands meet,
   And whither then I cannot say.

I like to sing it to a "folk" tune from the '60s, I think 
recorded by The Seekers and/or Peter, Paul and
Brunhilda^H^H^H^H^H Mary:

   The water is wide, I can't cross o'er.
   Nor do I have light wings to fly.
   Build me a boat that can carry two,
   And both shall roam, my love and I.

Does anyone know other tunes which fit this or other poems/songs 
from LOTR?  I've heard a few original compositions which really 
suck.

--

Frank     reid@ucs.indiana.edu

Why to PP&M look like muppets?
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: mjw@cck.coventry.ac.uk (Alien)
Subject: Re: Hobbits, again
Organization: Coventry University
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 18:29:37 GMT






>languages of England's past.  The Rohirrim are clearly modelled on the Anglo-
>Saxons (or at least on literary representations of them).  This is apparent 
>from their language, their names, their physical appearance, their skill with 
>horses, their customs, and even their buildings--  Theoden's Golden Hall comes

The Anglo-Saxons were *not* horse riders!!!!!! But you could call the Rohirrim
'Saxons on horse-back'.

>right out of Heorot in Beowulf.  The hobbits, on the other hand, are modelled 
>on a romantacized version of pre-industrial English yeoman farmers.  This is 

Pre-industrial??! More probably ,I submit, on yeomanry of Tolkien's own time
that is *if* you must insist on drawing an exact analogy. "Allegory I 
cordially detest" -JRRT.

>evident from their language, the names of the places they live (i.e. the 
>Shire, Southfarthing, Bag End, etc.), their social arrangements, their 

Names do not change with epochs except very slowly.You should try looking at
a map of the English home counties for some well-quaint names. You should should
try visiting some of these places too!

>agricultural economy and technology, their food and drink, etc.

BTW thanks for all the stuff about Saxons and modern English! I thought everyone
knew that English comes from Saxon (as well as Latin and Norman French) but
if that was JRRT's influence then that's another feather to his cap.
  Point to consider tho': lots of Robin Hood type films make him a Saxon
  hero opposed to Norman tyranny ,so it's obvious that the saxon's identity
  was well known at least by the 40's

  Matt.
  
-- 
|Matt now has a .signature file. Cor! aren't computers wonderful!|
|So it's goodbye from me and it's auf wiedersehen von mich.      |
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Correlation of Racial Status with Moral Fickleness
Date: 25 Jan 1993 08:57:19 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In article <1jhbpnINN1rv@rodan.UU.NET> crerar@rodan.UU.NET (Andy Crerar) writes:
>It seems that everyone had a shot at
>redemption.


It's interesting that in the cases you cited, all of the villains failed 
to be redeemed (with the exception of those that Aragorn pardoned at
the end of the War of the Ring, and we don't know about them yet).

Which raises the question: does this mean that everyone has a shot at
redemption, but that almost nobody achieves it?


Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: samw@bucket.rain.com (Sam Warden)
Subject: Re: Geography of M.E. Was:(Re: Blue Wizards?)
Organization: Rick's Home-Grown Un*x
Date: 25 Jan 93 05:25:26 GMT

roland@sics.se (Roland Karlsson) writes:

>There are some similarities between ME and the real world but the
>differences are huge.  I do not think that it looks like a map of
>earth at all.  Why do you not accept the word from Tolkien that any
>similarities in geography and history is not really intended? 
 
I think he said that no similarities with _contemporary_ geography
and history were intended.  That is, he didn't intend the LOTR
as an allegory.  But  Middle-earth was intended to be this world
in the mythical past, specifically Europe (the parts where the
story happens that is).  In fact the coastline in the Third Age
in the map in Fellowship looks a whole lot like Europe's
continental shelf.  The Shire maps onto the British Isles (as
I understand Tolkien intended).  What's interesting is that
Mordor seems to fall smack in the middle of France.  :-)

-- 
 
samw@bucket.rain.com (Sam Warden) -- and not a mere Device.
 
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: jjonsson@alexandria.lib.utah.edu
Subject: Re: Hobbits in the Undying Lands
Organization: Marriott Library, University of Utah
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 06:40:12 GMT

In article <1k0sthINNpj4@digex.digex.com> dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) writes:

>I have read and been convinced by the postings here that concluded that
>Hobbits are close relations to Men.

>But this raises a problem for me.  At the end of LOTR, Frodo and Bilbo
>take the last ship to the Undying Lands.  Later, the appendices tell us,
>Sam took a ship west to join them.

>But if Hobbits are racially derived from men, isn't this a problem?
>Aren't men strictly forbidden from going to the Undying Lands?

My impression has always been that the Undying Lands are more than likely 
just a metaphor for some sort of paradise or heaven. After all, they 
separated physically from Middle Earth at some point late in the second or 
early in the third age of the sun. (Wasn't it after the Numenorean attack? 
Someone check me on this.)
	I've always viewed the end of ROTK as the ship taking off from the 
Grey Havens and going voluntarily into heaven. It's more striking for me to 
think of it that way, and that's the way I'll probably always think of it. 
It makes sense for everyone on that ship to be beatified in some way, and 
that's just how I see it.


Jeff Jonsson
Marriott Library Data Control, University of Utah.
==============================================================================
--"Ash nazg durbatuluk, ash nazg  -- jjonsson@alexandria.lib.utah.edu
-- gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatuluk -- jjonsson@utahlib.bitnet
-- agh burzum-ishi krimpatul!"    --  "You talkin' to me?"
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: jswartz@mbunix.mitre.org (Swartz)
Subject: Re: References to Tolkien by Led Zeppelin
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, Bedford, MA
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 15:12:46 GMT

In article <C18LF8.Hu1@acsu.buffalo.edu> lerczak@acsu.buffalo.edu (Horse) writes:
>rcb3654@ritvax.isc.rit.edu writes:
>
>>However,  Zep's most popular song, "Stairway to Heaven", has a reference to   
>>JRRT in that the lyrics go something like this (and there's a lady who's sure
>>**all that glitters is gold** and she's buying a stariway to heaven). 
>
>well, if you were to look at the song, it might be construed to be about
>galadriel in the specific, or at least the elves in the general. i haven't
>listened to it in a bit, but i seem to also recall a line in there that goes
>something to the effect of "there's a feeling i get, when i look to the west,
>and my spirit is crying for leaving." kinda screams ELVES. at least to me...
>
>>				--Chard
>
>Horse

How about the line, "And a new day will dawn for those who stand long, and
the forests will echo with laughter." -- could be about Elves, could even be
about Ents . . .

"And it makes me wonder . . . "


John

 
-- 
|||  JOHN A. SWARTZ -- The MITRE Corporation -- Bedford, Massachusetts  |||
||| "The bank called me up and told me I'm overdrawn.  Some freaks are  |||
||| "burning crosses out on my front lawn.  And I can't believe it, all |||
||| "the Cheetos are gone!  It's just one of those days." --Weird Al--  |||
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: cffitzge@IASTATE.EDU (Charles F Fitzgerald)
Subject: Re: Questions
Reply-To: cffitzge@IASTATE.EDU (Charles F Fitzgerald)
Organization: Iowa State University
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 06:46:24 GMT

rich writes:
>Hey, just found this group, got some questions for y'all.  .... second,
>can anyone give me a listing of which books are tolkien, which are his
>sons, and which are a mix?  i've always wondered this.  

J.R.R.Tolkien's Middle-Earth books are:
_The Hobbit_
_The Fellowship of the Ring_
_Two Towers_
_The Return of the King_

C.Tolkien had _The Silmarillion_ published for JRRT, posthumously.  It is
JRRT's work.

The so-called History of Middle-Earth series (including _Unfinished Tales_
and _Lays of Beleriand_, among others) were compiled by C.Tolkien from 
J.R.R.Tolkien's notes, with commentary by C.Tolkien regarding condition
of the various notes and possible meanings of ambiguous entries.

Other works include 
_The Tolkien Reader_ (containing "Leaf by Niggle", Tolkien's "On Fairy 
Stories" essay, and "The Adventures of Tom Bombadil", among others)
_Farmer Giles of Ham_
a translation of "Gawain and the Green Knight", "the Pearl", and "Sir
Orfeo" 
And his "Beowulf" essay.

This list is not meant to include all Tolkien's works, merely those
which happen to grace my shelves or are known to me :-).

>And the third is how do simirilian and LOTR relate.  i've only read the 
>hobbit and LOTR and haven't ever really gotten into sim.  i had always 
>assumed that sim.  was ancient history behind the middle earth of LOTR.

Some (most notably Jim Chokey) would say that they do not relate at
all, or at least not much.  Tolkien wrote _The Hobbit_ and much of
what would become _The Silmarillion_ before beginning the Lord of
the Rings.  It is not clear that _The Hobbit_ was in any way connected
to _The Silmarillion_ at the time of its (_The Hobbit_'s) writing.
The Lord of the Rings was begun as a sequel to _The Hobbit_, and as
such, it may be argued that it had no connection to _The Silmarillion_
at its onset.

During writing, however, Tolkien started to incorporate more and
more of the tales that currently make up _The Silmarillion_.  As it
stands now, the tales of _The Silmarillion_ serve mostly as a 
backdrop to LOTR to provide depth and a sense of history.

>oh yeah...how do other books relate to his middle earth also...like 
>unfinished tales and that farmer of something book?

See above notes after given selection for details.  This question
has been discussed very heatedly over the course of this news-
group, and I don't intend to say anything more for fear of
stirring it up again.

--
Charles F. Fitzgerald | '...it's a tale, told by an idiot,
Iowa State University | full of sound and fury,
cffitzge@iastate.edu  | signifying nothing.'
                      | _MacBeth_, by W. Shakespeare.

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: schere@aix.rpi.edu (Mithrandir)
Subject: Re: References to Tolkien by Led Zeppelin
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 17:06:19 GMT

In article <watson.727716248@mariner.sce.carleton.ca> watson@sce.carleton.ca (Stephen Watson) writes:
>rcb3654@ritvax.isc.rit.edu writes:
>
>
>>However, Zep's most popular song, "Stairway to Heaven", has a reference to 
>>JRRT in that the lyrics go something like this (and there's a lady who's sure >**all that glitters is gold** and she's
>buying a stariway to heaven).
>>				--Chard 
>
>If Led Zep was indeed quoting Tolkien, then Tolkien was probably
>quoting Shakespeare ("All that glisters is not gold" - Merchant of
>Venice, 1596) and/or Chaucer ("But al thyng which that shineth as the
>gold/ Nis nat gold, as that I have herd it told" - Canterbury Tales,
>c.1387).  And *they* were simply repeating an old Latin proverb: "Non
>teneas aurum totum quod splendet ut aurum", which seems to be a
>translation of something Aristotle said.
>
>In other words: it's an ancient and well-known saying in Western
>culture, and there's no reason think that JRRT was the specific source
>for the line in the LZ song.
>
>--
>| Steve Watson a.k.a. watson@sce.carleton.ca === Carleton University, Ontario |
>|  this->opinion = My.opinion;  assert (this->opinion != CarletonU.opinion);  |
>"Somebody touched me / Making everything new / Burned through my life / Like a
> bolt from the blue / Somebody touched me / I know it was you" - Bruce Cockburn

The line from LoTR is 'All that is gold does not glitter'
So I'm not sure how much the Led Zep song refers to Tolkien.  More to  
Shakespeare, I would think.
Mithrandir

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Many are my names in many countries.  Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkun to 
the Dwarves; Olorin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the 
South Incanus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: jdelcol@eng.clemson.edu (Joe Del Collo)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: MERP and Names of the Nazgul...
Date: 27 Jan 93 15:50:24 GMT
Reply-To: jdelcol@eng.clemson.edu
Organization: College of Engineering, Clemson Univ.

I thought that "The Witch-King" appeared in one of the books. It might of been the
"Middle Earth Encyclopedia" or such though. I think he was listed as having brought 
down the Northern Kingdom and slain their king.

Just trying to remember,
Joe
From: lerczak@acsu.buffalo.edu (Horse)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: References to Tolkien by Led Zeppelin
Date: 22 Jan 93 03:52:19 GMT
Organization: No Quarter

rcb3654@ritvax.isc.rit.edu writes:

>However,  Zep's most popular song, "Stairway to Heaven", has a reference to   
>JRRT in that the lyrics go something like this (and there's a lady who's sure
>**all that glitters is gold** and she's buying a stariway to heaven). 

well, if you were to look at the song, it might be construed to be about
galadriel in the specific, or at least the elves in the general. i haven't
listened to it in a bit, but i seem to also recall a line in there that goes
something to the effect of "there's a feeling i get, when i look to the west,
and my spirit is crying for leaving." kinda screams ELVES. at least to me...

>				--Chard

Horse
From: Michael.P.Colburn@dartmouth.edu (Michael P. Colburn)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Hobbits in the Undying Lands
Date: 28 Jan 93 22:13:19 GMT
 <1k3r95INN84d@digex.digex.com> <C1JLCt.4tL@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>  
 <1k7osaINNb2@gap.caltech.edu>
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0a5@newshost.dartmouth.edu

In article <1k7osaINNb2@gap.caltech.edu>
damiens@cco.caltech.edu (Damien Sullivan) writes:

> >the Hobbit and LotR all took place.  By then the Undying Lands were
> >merely a legend or myth...certainly anyone who believed in it's
> >existence considered it to heaven.  My $0.02....

> 	What about those who had been to Valinor?  Such as Galadriel and other 
> Noldor?

What about them?  The Noldor remaining in ME were mostly recluse and
considered odd by most other 'ordinary' living beings.  The point I was
trying to make is that a good deal of time had passed since the Undying
Lands were removed and to most common folk, it was merely a myth.  Of
course the Noldor knew better, but who would believe those crazy old
elves anyway... would you believe some one if they told you they were
several thousand years old? ;-)

Mike Colburn                         =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Dartmouth-Hitchcock                  "Pulu-see-ba-goomba" -- Gilligan 
Medical Center                       =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Lebanon, New Hampshire  03756        :-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-):-)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: boucher@ug.cs.dal.ca (Darren B. Boucher)
Subject: Hello?
Organization: Math, Stats & CS, Dalhousie University, Halifax, NS, Canada
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 13:46:27 GMT

 Surely there must be some other fans of this, my favorite story ever.
I recently heard of the animated feature "Return of the King", is this
a good quality telling of the book? I'm wondering if it is worth watching,
I enjoyed "Lord of the Rings" which of course doesn't cover the 3rd book,
I also saw "The Hobbit" but that was kind of lame.

-- 
Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a blaster at your side, kid.

 -Han Solo to Luke Skywalker (Star Wars IV: A New Hope)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien