HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Worship Greek gods (central paradox of modern paganism)
Date: 14 Apr 92 23:12:55 GMT

In article <1992Apr11.040214.6243@s1.gov> lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich) writes:
>Ah, yes.  The central paradox of modern paganism:  When an ancient culture
>is obsessed with making exagerated, unrealistic images of women and considers
>sex and preganancy to be the core of female power and function, it is
>called "matriarchal".  When a 20th century man is obsessed with exagerated,
>unrealistic images of women and considers sex and procreation to be the
>primary function of women, he is a sexist pig.

Why is this the central paradox? 

I see no paradox here. A matriarchal society is one in which women and goddess's 
are the dominant majority. Children are seen as descended from their mothers. 
Most, (not all!), neolithic agricultural cultures were matriarchal. This may be 
because fertility of the earth was most important to agricultural neoliths, and 
women clearly have the power of reproducing or continuing life. This is
not an exageration, but this doesn't mean that sex and pregnancy were the core
of female power and function. Women may have a "purpose" as opposed to men
who may not, but that doesn't mean all women are slaves to their purpose.
You are never a slave to your purpose, if you're 8 ft tall, does that mean you
have to play basketball? And the primary function of women is not
reproduction. (It may be in a patriarchal society) In matriarchal societies, 
women are ussually ranked in importance by age, the oldest woman being the 
dominant matriarch. The oldest woman is ussually no longer capable of reproduction, 
she has lost that power, but she has the power of knowledge, of experience, that 
comes with age. She may also be the best midwife, having seen and perhaps 
participated in many births. She probably has the best knowledge of edible 
and medicinal plants, again because of her age and because childbirth was the
most dangerous ritual of her time. This woman would later become known has a 
witch or hag because later patriarchal societies valued young women capable 
of childbirth as most important, (since this is the one minimum purpose of 
women for men!), and they placed no value in the knowledge of the witch.
Young women were encouraged to not trust older women and to compete amongst
themselves for the attention of the older, dominant men and gods of a
patriarchal society, just like the one we have today.

No paradox here, just some illusions of perspective.

The central paradox is life and death, so different yet so alike, they
both need each other for existance, sounds kind of familiar, doesn't it?
Welcome to the world of opposites!
From: shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk (Leo Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Ignore this - test only
Date: 6 Apr 92 20:24:57 GMT
Reply-To: Leo Smith <shaman@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Organization: Gated to News by demon.co.uk

..as there seems to be a blockage in usenet news in this domain.
Sorry for trouble caaused.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: rickheit@dragon (Erich Rickheit KSC)
Subject: Re: Discordianism (was: "What does PAGAN mean anyway?")
Frankie: Nothing...why, do you think I should?
Organization: University of Lowell Computer Science, Lowell MA
Brad: What have you done with Janet
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 16:47:23 GMT

In article <28588@hoptoad.uucp> tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes:

>Yep.  Trickster is not someone you want to meet.  In male or female form,
>this deity represents the whimsical cruelty of the universe.

Piffle. Whimsical cruelty is only one of the aspects of a Trickster.
Trickster represents (and are agents of) change, and the undermining of the
'rules' of the universe. That's only 'cruel' or 'evil' when you have a
vested interest in the current order. Trickster's lesson is 'change or be
changed;' true, she has little regard for those who suffer because of her
changes, but mercy is a trait of very few of the gods.

Tricksters end up as the gods of the opressed and the downtrodden. That's
why the _Principia_Discordia_ presents a benign Eris; that's why Nasrudin
and Jesus came up with such big followings (yes, Jesus lost the trickster
attributes as Christianity became more powerful. Different topic) That's why
so many gays follow Trickster gods. That's probably why Odin tried so hard
to get Loki's blood-brotherhood; assuring that you're on everyone's side is
good rulership practice.

As for 'not someone you want to meet,' Raven, Anansi, and Coyote all have
good sides. And there are plenty of outright good one, as Nasrudin,
Parsifal, and Baron Von Munchausen. (Some may argue these are Fools, but
Fool is one of Trickster's favorite masks)

			mu, 
-- 
			Erich the hahaha Mad
rickheit@hawk.ulowell.edu     AT&T: 508 453 1753  : USnail : Erich Rickheit KSC
         "Here, my ice lolly's melted --          :          85 Gershom Ave, #2
          You really _are_ the devil!"            :          Lowell, MA 01854
From: shava@hermes.oit.unc.edu (Shava Nerad Averett)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: starting a CUUPs chapter
Date: 17 Apr 92 00:07:55 GMT
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill

In article <92105.011201IO81409@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> IO81409@MAINE.MAINE.EDU (Ailsa N.T. Murphy) writes:
>i've decided to start a CUUPs chapter locally, as i know
>the interest is out there, and the last person to attempt
>it gave up, due to lack of response (he didn't advertise).
>i plan to advertise, putting up flyers everywhere i know
>pagans can be found.  i know U/Us have no trouble with
>pagans, 

Some do, some don't.  However, there is a policy of toleration
and even support.  But there are individuals (including some 
ministers) who aren't thrilled to death to have an "incursion
of witches" in their parish.  Please be politic, and do some 
gentle consciousness raising...

>but most pagans, i would be willing to bet, ahve never
>heard of U/Us.  any ideas on how to explain the U/U church
>and CUUPs in a few words on a flyer?
>
CUUPs has this very thing.  Contact them thru the headquarters
address, and you can either buy copies, or get one and xerox it.

-- 
Shava Nerad Averett				shava_averett@unc.edu
/*  all materials (c)1992, Shava Nerad Averett, and have nothing significant
    to do with the University of North Carolina, a mostly owned subsidiary 
    of the NC Legislature, a mostly owned subsidiary of the DOT.      */
From: cortese@hepxvt.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Seeking Thomas Morton and/or Merry Mount references
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 9 Apr 92 17:38:37 GMT

In article <1992Apr9.062203.26346@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:
>
>Maypoles were a common feature in Christian England until the time of Cromwell.
>The Puritans banned them, as well as theatre, etc., because they were not
>sober and godly.  They are indeed pagan in origin, but there use does not
>mean that the dancers were pagans.  Just fun folks! :)
>
>              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
>                               Br'anArthur
>
>Wicca is a Green and Fuzzy Religion
>               --Pug and Bran

Why do I get the feeling that the Puritans would have banned the autumn
colors and birdsong if they could have?  Jeez, what a bunch of killjoy
farts.  

Blessings,
Janis
From: star@meltdown.chi.il.us (Samantha Straf)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Worship of the Greek gods
Date: 5 Apr 92 20:37:25 GMT
Organization: The Meltdown - A Team Star BBS

I was in a group for a while that used the Greek pantion, but that was mostly
due to the fact that we were being lead by a Classics Professor who liked to
use god images she was most familiar with.  Unforiantly I have lost track of
her
From: cortese@hepxvt.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Psychic Hotlines
Date: 7 Apr 92 23:06:13 GMT
Article-I.D.: noiro.29E22AE5.27061
Organization: University of California, Irvine

In article <28433@hoptoad.uucp> tim@hoptoad.UUCP (Tim Maroney) writes:
>In article <702566085.F00001@mintir.fidonet.org>
>Vitriol@f155.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Vitriol) writes:
>>Try calling up and asking, "What do I have in my pocket right now?"
>
>Nothing, you're just happy to see me!

Gee, there's nothing like suddenly laughing your ass off for no apparent
reason and garnering funny looks from everyone around.  Thanks just a
BUNCH, Tim.

Still laughing,
Janis C.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: IO81409@MAINE.MAINE.EDU (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Looking for magic II:New Magus w/group
Date: 6 Apr 92 03:47:25 GMT
Article-I.D.: MAINE.92096.234725IO81409
Organization: University of Maine System

hello and welcome B)  your post got through, so you're
doing ok so far...
                              -ailsa
From: wt0b+@andrew.cmu.edu (William Henry Timmins)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Worship of the Greek gods
Date: 10 Apr 92 15:46:51 GMT
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

>So why this problem with Neanderthals?  It's called interbreeding,
>people.  I've read a bunch of junk on this, and I've NEVER seen anything
>that would make me think that Neanderthals "disappeared" or were "killed
>off" or anything like that.

	The literature I've read is that genetic studies imply that
Neanderthals in the areas near Europe were, more or less, replaced by
Cro-Magnon, while in Southeast Asia Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons
interbred and merged.

	Also, that there is a long (ie, on the order of many thousands of
years) period in which Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons lived at the same
time.

Things are not very clear cut.

-Me
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: "experiments"
Date: 7 Apr 92 19:03:28 GMT
Article-I.D.: hpcvaac.1992Apr7.190328.5145
Organization: Hewlett-Parkard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA

: >And so we dispense with that inconvenient concept, "truth".  The fact
: >that some claims have no rational basis, and that there is every rational
: >reason to disbelieve them, is just "what the skeptics think".
: >-- 
: >Tim Maroney, Mac Software Consultant, sun!hoptoad!tim, tim@toad.com
: >
: 
: I just wanted to post this because I think some of y'all are missing the point
: of having experiments to prove to sceptics that magick and psychic phenomena
: _do_ exist.  The point is not to satisfy and give meaning to your own beliefs,
: It is the opportunity to show the skeptic a new way of thought.

I think you are missing the point. Flawed experiments do nothing to convince
the sceptic. All they do is further enforce the belief that psi does not exist.
As such, such "demonstrations" do more harm than good.

: To simply allow skeptics to just _not_ experience any other way of thinking
: is choosing to limit _their_ potential.  Whether they believe you or not, is
: not important.  If if they think you a loon for trying to prove Magick's
: existance, you have still shown them that there is another way to see reality

And what right do you have to determine how they think? If they come to you
asking for a convincing demonstration, then the least  you could do would be
to make it as foolproof as possible. Can you blame them for thinking you are
a "loon" when you use a looney experiment as your proof?

: .  They may not realize what you have shown them as anything valid until
: years later, or they may never realize it.  In either case, any challenge to
: a person's perception of reality will produce some result. (ie.  If the
: skeptic does not believe you, and does think you a loon, he may go out and
: laugh about it with some drinking buddies.  One of those buddies mught decide
: to investigate the subject himself, hence a new believer)  And if you
: believe that existance is controlled by the truths of the universe, then 
: eventually your effort to show that skeptic the nature, or an aspect of,
: the universe will bring and can only bring about good ultimately.

None of the proposed experiments would prove anything. Tim is absolutely
right about that. Sceptics are already aware that each individual has their
own personal perception of reality. 

Why would you feel good about someone becoming a believer in something that
must be accepted as a matter of faith alone? Magic is not a religion that
requires this - the results of magical acts should be demonstrable and also
repeatable. If they are not, there is no way to differentiate magic from
pure chance.

I cannot see how proving that magic existed is going to necessarily have
a "good" effect on a skeptic or, for that matter, any other person.

Bill
From: egnr76@castle.ed.ac.uk (A Kashko)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Sacrifice
Date: 13 Apr 92 13:53:02 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University


	Someone recently  gave me the idea that giving up your time
could be regarded as a sacrifice, even if no material object was sacrificed.
Especially if you are or feel you are short of time.

	Comments ?
From: caroline@sco.COM (friend of a fiend)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: faeries
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 92 20:32:56 GMT
Organization: The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc.


In article <1992Apr1.031510.22729@midway.uchicago.edu> moh2@midway.uchicago.edu writes:

<... various fantasy novels dealing with the Fair Folk recommended>

Also, "War for the Oaks", by Emma Bull.  This novel is great, 
and the Fair Folk are presented credibly.

=caroline=
-- 

It's been a bloody odd day.... not even a two plus two equals five kind of
day, more like two plus two equals ... fish ... or something.

						-- from 'Cages'
From: bn566@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ward Chanley)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: burning gay guys
Date: 14 Apr 92 01:25:20 GMT
Article-I.D.: usenet.1992Apr14.012520.29576
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)


See also the appendix to Starhawk's 
"Dreaming the Dark" and essays from
Z Budapest for more on homosexuals who
were burned prior to accused witches.
-- 
"Imagine a war in which everyone won..."
Pet Shop Boys, "DJ Culture"
-----------------------------------------
Ward Chanley - bn566@cleveland.freenet.edu
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson)
Subject: Re: alt.pagan survey
Organization: Hewlett-Parkard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 00:07:06 GMT

: >: As I understand them, Judism/Christianity/Islam are exclusive sets.
: >: These religions proscribe that an adherant does not behave in the
: >: manners that you have described.
: 
: >They are only exclusive in the eyes of some of the adherants of the
: >particular faith. The religious texts may say otherwise. For example,
: >in Christianity there is a commandment "Thou shalt have no other god
: >before me". Now, many Christians believe that this means that there
: >is only one god and you are prohibited from worshipping or believing
: >in any others. This is not what the commandment says - it simply
: >commands that the Christian God be the primary god at the top of the
: >heap. It says nothing about what you may do with "lesser" gods.
: 
: >I would guess that Judaism and Islam are similar. 
: 
: >Please keep in mind that what the leaders of some sect say is proscribed
: >does not make it so to all of the general faith. I see no reason that a
: >person has to be a member of one of the highly organized Christian/Islamic/
: >Judaic sects to be considered a member of that religion. 
: 
: You have just led us into a realm where all definition is subjective,
: and so ultimatly no word has any meaning. 

Certainly. Labels/definitions are personal, and thus very subjective. 

In my last statement, all that can be said is that a person does not follow
the tenets of a particular sect. How can you say whether or not they are a
member of a particular religion? I do not have the right - do you?

There are many Christians that do not believe that the Bible is the literal
"word of God". They believe it to be a combination of myth, history and
parable meant to illustrate various dogma or teachings. As such, they feel
that it is a guide to living - not absolute truth.

Bill
From: markbr@radian.UUCP (markbr)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: sp
Summary: an apology, but some justification for the accusation
Date: 14 Apr 92 18:21:35 GMT
Organization: Radian Corp. Austin, TX

In article <1992Apr13.193026.6313@news.iastate.edu>, xcz13@isuvax.iastate.edu writes:
> elf-kin is disgraphic-look it up-it is not being silly nor is it ignorince
> he that can not think beyond acusations to concidere the possability that
> something might have a legit cause as an actual disability is in all 
> actuality probably as ignorint or more ignorent then they claim the uthere
> to be.
> 
> ELF-KIN	true wisdom is knowing that you dont know everything
> 		true wisdom comes from discovering your limits 
> 		true wisdom is excepting the limits of utheres
> 		true wisdom comes from understanding

Since you *say* you spell like that due to disability, I apologize. *But*,
this was your first appearance, you didn't say anything, and we have had 
several people show up in this newsgroup in the past months who spelled
abominably, and had equally lousy grammer, and, when flamed by *other*
people (I kept quiet), *defended* their writing with no excuse other than 
what was effectively laziness. Until you spoke up, I was assuming that
it was another ignorant idiot, *not* a disabled person. Remember, all
we can see is your words.

Again, my apologies.

	mark Silverdragon


/*___________________________________________________________________________*
 *  1.     How *DARE* you attribute these opinions to anyone else!           *
 *  2.     Would *you* claim opinions like these if they *weren't your own?  *
 *					                                     *
 *		         Mark Silverdragon                                   *
 *					                                     *
 *          	       	markbr@radian                                        *
 *___________________________________________________________________________*/
Etymology, n.:
	Some early etymological scholars come up with derivations that
were hard for the public to believe.  The term "etymology" was formed
from the Latin "etus" ("eaten"), the root "mal" ("bad"), and "logy"
("study of").  It meant "the study of things that are hard to swallow."
		-- Mike Kellen
From: dan@wombat.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Dan Parmenter)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Seeking Thomas Morton and/or Merry Mount references
Date: 10 Apr 92 18:20:36 GMT
Organization: /home/fsg/dan/.organization

In article <29E47F35.3232@noiro.acs.uci.edu> cortese@hepxvt.ps.uci.edu 
(Janis Maria Cortese) writes:

>   Not much to say on this, but the name Merrymount also pops up
>   in PA as well.  I don't know much about it; it's not exactly
>   greater Philadelphia area.

Perhaps it's worth checking into.  But good luck - I stumbled on the
reference to Merry Mount almost by chance, it doesn't seem to get
covered too often, since it was ultimately a less grim spectacle than
the Salem Village Witchcraft incidents.  After all, Morton got
deported - the "witches" were killed.

I've also been looking up references to Witchcraft in an Elizabethan
book that my Great Aunt owns.  The book is an almanac/historical
account/general interest book of its time, and features several sober
accounts of witches being put to death.  It also goes into detail on
monster sightings, spontaneous human combustion and "monstrous
births", but that's pretty much apropos of nothing at all...

Getting back to my original point though, it is true that Maypoles
were prevalent in pre-Cromwell times, indeed, even post Cromwell, in
England and elsewhere.  My grandmother used to dance around one in the
South in her childhood.  Like so many other customs though, the
original intent seems to have become a bit vague, whatever the
original intent was (though the semiotic value of the pole seems
fairly unambiguous).  Most people that I've talked to around here who
had Maypoles in their youth associated them with church or school
events.

"Then to the maypole, haste away, for 'tis now our holiday"

					- traditional song
--
 -------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Dan Parmenter       |"When I saw you, you looked so surprised           |
|                     | the oceans flowed in your blue-grey eyes.         |
|                     | We stood and gazed through hot summer days,       |
| dan@gnu.ai.mit.edu  | so tell me, how does it feel?" - Spacemen 3       |
 -------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: markbr@radian.UUCP (markbr)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Jesus was a pagan and lonely wiccians
Summary: one point on morality
Date: 14 Apr 92 18:35:46 GMT
Organization: Radian Corp. Austin, TX

In article <53171@mimsy.umd.edu>, mangoe@cs.umd.edu (Charley Wingate) writes:

<stuff deleted irrelevant to morality>

> >statements about niceness and mutual respect.  Niceness was only for those
> >who accepted the word of the Son of God; the rest would burn forever in the
> >next life and demanded shunning in this one.
> 
> Obviously, Tim, you were not paying attention in Sunday school.  And, as is
> typical, you confuse human morality with divine action.  The wrath of the
> LORD is not in the least bit constrained by anything anyone says about human
> moral principles.  And you seem to have forgotten the parable of the Good

> C. Wingate        + "Were you there when they crucified my Lord?

Charley, 
	the problem *I* have with this view that one should not "confuse 
human morality with divine action" is that it makes a religious tenet of
"do as I say, not as I do". *THAT* I won't accept from human beings, be
they teachers, parents, etc, much less from a diety. As I once told my
sister, I expect *more* from relatives than from friends, not less; I 
expect MORE of a diety, otherwise, they're just another superhero/villian.


/*___________________________________________________________________________*
 *  1.     How *DARE* you attribute these opinions to anyone else!           *
 *  2.     Would *you* claim opinions like these if they *weren't your own?  *
 *					                                     *
 *		         Mark Silverdragon                                   *
 *					                                     *
 *          	       	markbr@radian                                        *
 *___________________________________________________________________________*/
Etymology, n.:
	Some early etymological scholars come up with derivations that
were hard for the public to believe.  The term "etymology" was formed
from the Latin "etus" ("eaten"), the root "mal" ("bad"), and "logy"
("study of").  It meant "the study of things that are hard to swallow."
		-- Mike Kellen