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Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 11:14:50 DST
From:         Claus Tondering <ct@DDE.DK>
Subject:      Raising a child for Christ
              92 8:46 am

Dear friends,

I would like to share with you a problem my wife and I have with
one of our daughters. Perhaps some of you could give us some advice.

We have 4 lovely daughters. Our problem child is the second eldest,
who is 11 years old. She is pretty, intelligent, generally kind,
and frequently happy. But...

She is also a psychological mystery. She is very complex. She can become
quite depressed and frustrated at the most unexpected times. The primary
problem, however, seems to be that she is completely unwilling (or perhaps
uable) to do anything that is in the least unpleasant. She doesn't
want to eat anything that she doesn't love, she doesn't want to visit
anyone that isn't extremely entertaining, she doens't want to read
books that aren't fascinating from page one. That kind of thing.
She has always been like that, and none of our other children have similar
problems. I know she sounds like a spoiled child, but believe me, that
is not the case. We had problems like this even when my wife was breastfeeding
her, because she apparently didn't like the milk and refused to eat!
And as I said, she is the only one of our children who behaves like this.

Well, all this we have learned to handle - more or less, at least. However,
we also try to bring her up as a Christian. She has been quick to learn
to basics of Christianity and she can ask some pretty intelligent questions.
But again: Going to church is boring, so she doesn't want to go. Going to
a Christian youth club is not 100 per cent entertaining 100 per cent of
the time, so she doesn't want to go. Going to a Christian camp is not
extremely exciting all the time, so she doesn't want to go.

What this adds up to is that she is very reluctant to get any Christian
input. Not because she resents Christianity, but because she resents
anything that is even slightly boring.

I think she is (still) a Christian. But for how long will she remain a
Christian when she grows up, if she continues to avoid a Christian
environment? How can we help her? We do require of her to go to church,
but forcing her to do things cannot be healthy in the long run.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Yours in Christ,
Claus Tondering
Herlev, Copenhagen, Denmark.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 12 Aug 1992 13:16:19 CDT
From:         Yvette Traylor <YST1@DCCCDBIT.BITNET>
Subject:      Southern US?

I am curious as to what states do you consider Southern US.  I have
never heard of anyone refusing to work for someone because they do not
go to church. And the say that it happened in the Souther US, well
that's alot of territory for one incident, don't you think?

   Yvette Traylor     "We are His people and the sheep of his pasture."
   Dallas County Community College District             Psalm 100:3
   Computer Programmer/Analyst  in  Dallas - Texas
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Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 12:25:01 EDT
From:         Leo W <Leo_W@QM.CIRCA.UFL.EDU>
Subject:      Scripturette 8/20
X-To:         Christia <christia@asuvm.inre.asu.edu>

"Protect the truth that you were given.  Protect it with the help of the Holy
Spirit who lives in us" (2 Timothy 1:14).

"Share in the troubles that we have.  Accept them like a true soldier of Christ
Jesus.  A soldier wants to please his commanding officer, so he does not waste
his time doing the things that most people do" (2 Timothy 2:3,4).

"I have fought the good fight ... I have kept the faith" (2 Timothy 4:7).

Yours in Christ Jesus,
Leo

Scriptures quoted from the International Children's Bible (ICB), New Century
Version, copyright 1986, 1988 by Word Publishing, Dallas, Texas 75039.  Used by
permission.
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Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 21:56:32 -0500
From:         "Michael S. Muegel" <mmuegel@NEXT3.CORP.MOT.COM>
Subject:      Non-Delivery Report for <9208211408.AA04607@motgate.mot.com>
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU

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Some important facts on the mail that was undelivered:

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-Mike

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Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 16:06:57 CDT
Reply-To:     bradk%isdgsm@rtsg.mot.com
From:         Brad Kaiser <bradk%isdgsm@RTSG.MOT.COM>
Subject:      Mary in Protestant belief; RC "worship" of Mary ?
X-To:         CHRISTIA%ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU@motgate.mot.com

I found the following interesting.  It's from the "Adult Catechism" of
the Evangelical Church of Germany (we would call them Lutherans, I
guess), under the heading 'Mary Belongs in the Gospel':

   Mary is not only 'Catholic'; but she is also 'Evangelical.'
   Protestants tend to forget that.  But Mary clearly is the mother of
   Jesus and closer to him than the closest disciples.  With what
   humanity the New Testament depicts this closeness, without
   concealing Mary's distance from Jesus!  An example of this distance
   can be seen in Luke, who tells so much about Mary.  A woman from
   the crowd says to Jesus: 'Blest is the womb that bore you and the
   breasts that nursed you!'  Jesus replies: 'Blest are they who hear
   the word of God and keep it.' (11:27-28)  But does that not apply
   precisely to Mary?  She is depicted as an exemplary hearer of God's
   word, as the handmaid of the Lord who says 'Yes' to the will of
   God, as the blessed one who is nothing of herself but gains
   everything through God's goodness.  Mary is the pattern for men who
   let themselves be opened and gifted by God, of the community of
   believers, of the Church.

(Quoted in "Answering a Fundamentalist", by Fr. Albert Nevins, MM [Our
Sunday Visitor, 1990].  As I read the copyright, I have every right to
quote this, but if anybody gets sued, please Lord, let it be me and
not ASU or Madge McBurney!)

On another issue, it is incorrect, or at least imprecise, to state
that Catholics "worship" Mary.  It implies that we make her the equal
of God.  She is not that at all, but a created being, human like us.

The term "worship" is a bad one anyway; it comes from the Old English
words for "render honor to".  Using the original meaning of the term,
then, Scripture tells us to "worship" our own parents!

St. Augustine gave a much more precise description of the reverence
required of Catholic Christians.  He divided it into four classes:

   'civilitas', literally civility, due to all people as children of
             God

   'dulia', veneration, due to righteous leaders of Church and
             country, family members, especially our parents,
             and the saints in glory

   'hyperdulia', more-than-veneration, due to Mary, the Mother of
             Jesus

   'latria', adoration, due only to the Triune God

In Jesus,

Brad Kaiser
(bradk%isdgsm@rtsg.mot.com)

  "Hatred destroys.  Only love creates."
            -- St. Maximilian Kolbe, shortly before his arrest and
               martyrdom at the hands of the Nazis.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 12:57:43 CDT
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      How important is Truth?

Dear All (esp. James Kiefer) ;

My intention in saying what I did about a "dearth ... is astounding ..." was
not to hurt Robert Weiss, nor anyone else.

I think at this point I should say outright my rationale of being on this list
serv at all :  I have a God-given love for TRUTH.  All true Christians have
this attribute (does this necessarily make ME a Christian? The Bible does
not address me personally, but implied is the idea that all true Christians
possess certain traits, due to the indwelling of the Spirit of God).

Certainly, I am tempted to try to "win" a polemical scenario, but if I succumb
to this, I am missing the true purpose of truth.  I must do all that I can to
keep a clear conscience in this matter.
Assuredly, I have NOT been perfect in this respect.  I have sinned in the past,
whether person-to-person or here on this list.




Jesse Carnes
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 09:43:10 CDT
From:         Elizabeth Stevens <CCCAMPER@MIZZOU1.BITNET>
Subject:      Direct Revelation

When I first began reading about Medjugorje I felt that what
was being said was true. The more I learned, the more I believed.
But there was one drastic problem. I did not understand, in my
pride (as a Lutheran) why the Mother of God would come with
messages for all mankind, and then speak specifically about
praying the rosary. Or mention the Sacraments as they are
upheld in the Roman Catholic Church. This was a tremendous
block for me.

But the more I have read and learned of the collective messages
the more I have understood. God wishes us all to be united,
not His Church, His "Body" broken into many pieces. He
specifically discusses this in His messages to Vassula
Ryden. In messages to the chosen at St. Maria Goretti Parish
in Scottsdale and also in Medjugorje He asks that we respect
one another because we all worship the same God.

Protestants are not excluded in any way from these messages
sent for us from God. The rosary is a meditation on the life
and Passion of Our Lord. Meditating on His Life and Passion
helps to develop and/or enhance your pure love for Him.
It helps you grasp how much He loved each one of us to endure
such agony of mind and body. He was God and stepped down
to a lowliness we can scarcely imagine. He suffered humiation
and agony beyond our comprehension. And even if we spend
20 or 30 or 40 years or more rejecting His love, scorning
His gifts, in an instant of awareness, of remorse and searching
He will rejoice and fly to our aid and welcome us Home with
a Love and Joy more profound than any human being could
ever offer or understand.

This is our Jesus. So as His Father raises His arm for Justice,
Jesus sends His Mother, and Himself, out among the "little
people", pleading for a return to Him. To return to His Word,
to read with the Holy Spirit and understand that His Word is
the same as it has always been. Because every single soul
lost is a loss of great magnitude to our Father.

I'll be sending some of the various messages as time permits.
Please read them with an open mind, and pray for discernment.
And please, do not read with pride, as I first did and as also
my husband first did. There is much we do not understand about
God. Our ways are not His ways is often said. To Vassula
Ryden He gave the vision of 3 iron rods representing the
Roman CC, the Orthodox Church, and the Protestant Churchs,
and He showed her that *all* must bend in order to be able
unite around Him.

We are to love one another, respect one another, and especially
pray for those who know Him not.

In His Love,
Elizabeth
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Sat, 22 Aug 1992 16:37:23 CDT
From:         Joe Moore <CC19@SDSUMUS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Dear Rome : prove it

>
> Marys virginity is not in scripture, but it doesnt need to be because they
> believe men as  well asGod, when when men contradict the word of God...
>
>
Ian, I don't want to put words in your mouth but don't you mean Mary's
PERPETUAL virginity?  The virginity of Mary at the birth of Jesus
is a very important protestant doctrine as well.  It may seem like nit
picking but I'm sure there are a few people on the list who might
be confused.  Thanks for your input.

Joe Moore
>
>
> ---------------------+-------------+-----------------------------------------
> Ian Williams         |    _--_|\   |      Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
> Oracle Systems       |   /      \  |	  Phone	  : +61 8 239 3900
> Adelaide, Australia  |   \_.--*_/  |
>                      |         v   |
From: psyrobtw@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Robert Weiss)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Homosexuality
Date: 20 Aug 92 02:39:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <CHRISTIA%92081719530451@ASUACAD.BITNET>, AMZIMM01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU (Angela Zimmerman) writes...

[...]

>Which brings me to
>another question:  what's the difference between a promiscous heterosexual
>and a promiscous homosexual?

	I dunno. I give up.


 en agape,
 Bob 


ps:	Hey, what's the difference between boogers and broccoli?
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu (Dr Nancy's Sweetie)
Subject: Perfect Numbers (was 888)
Organization: Glassboro State College
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 17:39:07 GMT


Memo writes (correctly) that 24 is not a perfect number.  (A number is
`perfect' if and only if it is equal to the sum of its divisors.)  Then he
says:

> In fact the only integer number whose factors sum the same number is
> number 6
>
> 1+2+3 = 6
> 1x2x3 = 6

This assertion is incorrect.  The first seven perfect numbers are:

    6    28    496    8128    33550336    8589869056    137438691328

(A mathematical theorem: x is a perfect number if x = 2^(n-1) * (2^n)-1,
 where (2^n)-1 is prime.  So all you need is a prime number generator to give
 you values for n, plug those into the formula, and you'll get all the perfect
 numbers you want.  I'd include some ANSI-compatible C code, but that's rather
 outside the purpose of this group.  If you really want one, send me mail.)

 -- 

A semi-relevant note: I do not give any credence to theories about numerology
and gematria, beyond the possibility that a human author intentionally puts
number tricks into his work.  I refer interested readers John Allen Paulos's
book _ Innumeracy _.


Darren F Provine / kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu
"As sensitive and broad-minded humans, we must never allow ourselves to be in
 any way judgmental of the religious practices of other people, even when
 these people clearly are raving space loons." -- Dave Barry
From: 75furlong@cua.edu
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Perfect Numbers (was 888)
Date: 19 Aug 92 18:20:47 GMT
Organization: The Catholic University of America

In article <1992Aug19.173907.11697@gboro.glassboro.edu>, kilroy@gboro.glassboro.edu (Dr Nancy's Sweetie) writes:
> 
>> In fact the only integer number whose factors sum the same number is
>> number 6
>>
>> 1+2+3 = 6
>> 1x2x3 = 6
> 
> This assertion is incorrect.  The first seven perfect numbers are:
> 
>     6    28    496    8128    33550336    8589869056    137438691328
           ^^

How can this work? The factors of 28 are 2x2x7 (or, if you prefer, 1x2x2x7).
The product of these numbers is 28, but the sum is either 11 or 12, depending
whether you count 1 or not. 

Confused,
Alison
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 12:16:00 EDT
From:         "Carl A. Lahetta" <U952020@RUTADMIN.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Trusting Scoutmasters

> Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 15:50:55 GMT
> From:         75furlong@CUAVAX.DNET.CUA.EDU
> Subject:      Re: Trusting Scoutmasters
> To:           "carl a. lahetta" <U952020>
>
> In article <CHRISTIA%92081708030230@ASUACAD.BITNET>,         "Carl A. Lahetta"
> <U952020@RUTADMIN.BITNET> writes:
> >> I think that maybe some people on this list need to have the
> >> difference between homosexuality and pedophilia explained.
> >
> >    This is the tactic Gays are using.  The fact is that there are HOMOSEXUAL
> >    and HETEROSEXUAL pedophiles.  They are not a separate category.  And what
> >    about NAMBLA?  They are Homosexuals that want to do away with age consent
> >    laws so that they can have sex with young boys.  And there are stats that
> >    show most pedophiles are Gay.  I'll be happy to cite the sources tomorrow
.
>
> These stats would seem to be in direct conflict with stats that the majority o
f
> incest and child abuse cases involve a HETEROSEXUAL male.

   I bet they would be in direct conflict since the stats you mention are
   related to a different problem.  Incest does not always mean it occured by
   a pedophile, and child abuse can be anything from sexual assualt to physical
   assault.  So why wouldn't the stats on pedophiles differ from those who
   engage in incest and child abuse?

> To say that all homosexual men lust after young boys is as absurd and offensiv
e
> as saying that all heterosexual men are guilty of incest with their daughters.
>
> -alison

Carl-------+
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 16:25:10 -0700
From:         "Patrick Brooks" <AZPAB@ASUACVAX.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Raising a child for Christ

>Dear friends,
>
>I would like to share with you a problem my wife and I have with
>one of our daughters. Perhaps some of you could give us some advice.
>
>We have 4 lovely daughters. Our problem child is the second eldest,
>who is 11 years old. She is pretty, intelligent, generally kind,
>and frequently happy. But...

>She is also a psychological mystery. She is very complex. She can become
>quite depressed and frustrated at the most unexpected times. The primary
>problem, however, seems to be that she is completely unwilling (or perhaps
>uable) to do anything that is in the least unpleasant. She doesn't
>want to eat anything that she doesn't love, she doesn't want to visit
>anyone that isn't extremely entertaining, she doens't want to read
>books that aren't fascinating from page one. That kind of thing.

[... cut some stuff...]

My wife and I are expecting our first child.  So, being the informatioon
sponge  and speculator that I am, I collect information and speculate ...
This may or may not help.

This summer I saw a couple, on a TV talk show,  who had a child that
that would be fine one minute and extremely violent the next.  Doctors
were convinced that the child had emotional problems.  After much searching
and talking with other doctors and testing they found out the child was
having allergic reactions to all kinds of foods.

Pat

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Patrick Brooks                     | Of making many books there is no
Bitnet:   AZPAB.ASUACVAX           | end, and much study is a weariness
Internet: AZPAB.ACVAX.INRE.ASU.EDU | of the flesh.
                                   |   -Qoheleth
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 09:44:00 CDT
From:         Sieg A U R I C H <B882SA@UTARLG.UTA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Home schooling
X-To:         CHRISTIA%ASUACAD.BITNET@ricevm1.rice.edu

I would suggest that you develope a simple questionaire that could be
completed so that you can compile some facts.  We "home educate", three
boys ages 5 , 5 , & 12.

			Sieg :{>
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 12 Aug 1992 09:40:24 EDT
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Is the Bible Absolute Truth?

remember this:  how do I know?  the bible tells me so!
From: FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET (zane of dhahran)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Lawrence the shepherd
Date: 17 Aug 92 12:21:43 GMT
Organization: King Fahd University of Petroleum and Minerals, S.A.
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X-Acknowledge-To: <FACN34B@SAUPM00.BITNET>

Brad,  thanks for the info. on Br. Lawrence.  I told my kids about him last
night and they were impressed.   Peace, Zane.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 16:03:46 EST
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      Re: when the world is new..
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU
              SHERRILL" at Aug 19, 92 3:00 pm

>
>Okay, but next time explain what the song really means, for there are
>people (like me) who see the christian and secular musics combining to
>form mixed messages.
>

What is christian and secular music?? How do you define christian music?
Any music that has the words God, Jesus or John 3:16???
There is no such thing as secular music and no such thing as christian music,
there is just music, full stop.. It might be motivated by various mechanisms
but its still music..

If we stopped seeing secular and christian as too different things then
we would not get so hung up on issues like Amy Grant being a deserter to
the cause and other rubbish issues like that...

I did think that the song spoke for itself..


---------------------+-------------+-----------------------------------------
Ian Williams         |    _--_|\   |      Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems       |   /      \  |	  Phone	  : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia  |   \_.--*_/  |
                     |         v   |
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From: john@harlqn.co.uk (John Sturdy)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Drunkard/alcoholic
Date: 17 Aug 92 13:02:47 GMT
	<1992Aug6.141851.1@cuavax.dnet.cua.edu>
Organization: Harlequin Limited, Cambridge, England

A question on something related to that:
 what do you think is the proper response to beggars (there are quite
a few of them in Cambridge) who ask for money purportedly for food,
when you can be pretty sure they're going to spend it on drink? (There
is a charitable organization round here distributing some food to
those in need, particularly the homeless.)
--
__John            When asked to attend a court case, Father Moses took with him
          a leaking jug of water. Asked about it, he said: "You ask me to judge
               the faults of another, while mine run out like water behind me."

                                                              john@harlqn.co.uk
John Sturdy                                            Telephone +44-223-872522
                      Harlequin Ltd, Barrington Hall, Barrington, Cambridge, UK
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