From: weaver@jetsun.weitek.COM (Michael Weaver)
Subject: Re: Pursuit & Honesty (was: Re: LJBF problems)
Organization: WEITEK Corporation, Sunnyvale CA
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 01:21:48 GMT

In article <1992Jul29.152952.14417@linus.mitre.org> jcr@mbunix.mitre.org (Rogers) writes:
>Michael Weaver, in giving advice to Jason Bert Rust, writes:
>
>> Since you have been friends for a long time, it probably surprised her
>> that you asked her out. And if you haven't followed up, she may think
>> that this was some anomaly, that you were feeling depressed or
>> something, and acting irrationally.
>
>I've generally found Michael to be one of the sanest advice-givers in
>this group, but I think this bit needs further discussion. I'm getting
>general in what follows, and am not discussing Jason's particular
>situation.
>
>Michael's advice about "following up" seems to imply that if a man
>really wants a relationship w/ a particular woman, he is expected
>to ask her out repeatedly even though she continues to refuse. Also
>that a woman may not believe a man's desire to date her is genuine
>unless he persists in the face of multiple refusals. Also that
>women may "test" men by refusing them multiple times and seeing
>whether the men persist.  Also that a man may not believe a woman
>really means "no" when she says "no." It may seem like I'm jumping
>ahead by leaps & bounds here, but doesn't all of that follow from
>what Michael wrote? Yet I strongly suspect it's *NOT* what Michael
>meant. Michael, please clarify.
>
Sorry if I gave the wrong impression. I think in this case what I said
makes sense, because as I understood it, Jason had asked his friend out
once, she had declined with no further discussion, and that was that. I
have posted several pieces of advice along the lines of not giving up
too easily, so perhaps I have not given a balanced picture.

If you are asking out someone you don't know (or don't know well 
enough), there is going to be some ambiguity. Actually, there 
is going to be ambiguity in any case. But common sense
should prevail. There is no rulebook for life, but the following
is approximately how I think I should handle this sort of thing:

    When you ask someone out, if they accept it doesn't mean
   anything but that they are willing to do whatever the suggested
   activity was.  Likewise, if someone turns you down, it just means
   they don't want to do the suggested activity. Exercises at
   mind-reading are counter-productive in the long run.

   If someone flatly says they will not date you, you should stop
   asking.  To do otherwise won't help you, it will annoy the other
   person and it will be bad for your self-image. It is usually best
   to take someone at their word. But...

   If you ask someone out a number of times and they never accept, you
   should stop asking them out. Most women (people?) are too polite (or
   whatever) to tell you to stop asking.  Some will continue to tell
   you tell you that they are disappointed they can't make it this
   time, when they really should be more candid.  I hate to have to
   assume someone means one thing when they say another, but in this
   case, you pretty much have to.  Also, If you are infatuated, you
   will believe the lamest excuses, which is another reason to pay more
   attention to the number of times you are turned down than the
   circumstances. 

Some people have to be asked three times if they want dessert 
before they accept. I suppose some women are like that about 
dating, but I am not going to assume that someone is like this,
nor would I want to humor them. Here are some reasons why
someone might turn you down once and accept later:

    - bad day the first time, ok now.
    - hadn't formed an impression of you, now has.
    - had a serious boyfriend/girlfriend, now doesn't.
    - thought you were married (engaged/going out with someone), 
      found out you weren't.

So if you are interested in one particular person, I think you shouldn't
give up to easily, but of course you shouldn't make a pest of yourself.


Of course, my 'rules' aren't a lot of help in real life. My current
problem concerns a woman I see often (not socially), who seems to be
getting friendly with me. Two years ago I asked her out. She accepted,
but broke the date without apology, and then declined two following
offers.  The last time she indicated somewhat incoherently that she
didn't think it was a good idea to date because we see each other,
involuntarily, all the time.

So, I have the following question for myself:

    - She did say she didn't want to date. Is there anything short of a
      retraction that would make me feel it is OK to ask her out?

    - She gave a reason why we couldn't date, should I take it at face 
      value, or treat it as an excuse?

    - Since she was rude (in breaking the date), shouldn't I just
      forget her in any case?

    - How friendly is friendly, anyhow? Can I trust my impressions? 

For now I will let things be. But it does make me think about
what is practical behavior and what is acceptable behavior.

Peace,
Michael.
----
The world is turning on gliding fireworks,
You beside me,
Revolution Earth.