From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Subject: Re: Paradise (was Re: Clean And Unclean Un / Maccoby Book)
Organization: University of Turku
	<LJMORLY.92Sep5192923@polaris.utu.fi>
	<1992Sep09.181424.26694@watson.ibm.com>
Date: 11 Sep 92 14:05:52

In article <1992Sep09.181424.26694@watson.ibm.com> strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom) writes:
> In article <LJMORLY.92Sep5192923@polaris.utu.fi>, ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen) writes:
> |> In article <1992Sep04.200800.25038@watson.ibm.com> strom@watson.ibm.com (Rob Strom) writes:
> |> > In article <LJMORLY.92Aug30185025@polaris.utu.fi>, ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen) writes:
> |> 
> |> > |> How do you think you'll get pass the angel who is standing in front of the 
> |> > |> paradise with a flaming sword (Gen. 3:24) ? 
> |> > |> 
> |> > Do you (Christians) equate the garden of Eden with heaven/the afterlife?
> |> 
> |> What do you mean by this question ? It's all the same how you call it;
> |> heaven, paradise, olam haba... It's the place without evil, and evil
> |> can't enter to it. 

> To me, the garden of Eden and olam ha-ba are two different ideas entirely.

> The garden of Eden refers to a place on the earth.  And the story
> in Genesis makes it clear that we can never go back there.  Whether
> you interpret the story literally or as a metaphor for the origin
> of human awareness of God and of sin, either way you can't go back.

WE CAN go back ! The other way to illustrate the thing, instead of the
angel standing there with a sword, is the curtain separating the 
Holy of Holies from outside world. Behind the curtain, as well as
behind the angel is THE FULL PRECENCE OF THE HOLINESS OF GOD. 
And what happened to that curtain 2000 years ago...

Mark 15:37,38: "With a loud cry, Yeshua breathed his last. THE CURTAIN 
OF THE TEMPLE WAS TORN IN TWO FROM TOP TO BOTTOM."

In Yeshua, there either won't be any angel, or that angel (angels) 
will say: "Welcome!" And even more than that: We can be in a living 
relationship with Hashem NOW, not just after we die.

> Olam ha-ba, on the other hand, means "the world to come".  There
> are also many different interpretations of what this is,
> but it is generally not thought of as a place on the earth.

> What I meant by this question is:  do you view the garden of Eden
> and olam ha-ba as two different names for the same thing?

As thinking about the presence of God, yes. Otherwise look at Bill
Carlson's reply.

> |> So, how would you answer to the question, how you'll get pass the angel 
> |> who is standing in front of the paradise with a flaming sword ?
> |> Or do you count yourself to the Sadducees who didn't believe in afterlife ?
> |> 

> If you mean by your question, "How would I justify myself before
> God at the time of my death", then my answer is:  through my
> acts of righteousness, justice, mercy, kindness, charity,
> and improving the world.  I think that the answer to this
> question distinguishes Jews of all flavors from Christians.

The "righteous acts" we might do are like FILTHY RAGS in the eyes of God.
We are righteous/tzaddikim only IN HIM, as the Bible keeps saying. (No 
matter how you interpret the word 'bible'.) Without the sacrifice of 
Yeshua we are unable to go back. (See Is. 53, Ps. 40:7-9 & Job 19:25,26 
and forget about the wishful "explanations" of RL. As to the word 'ransom', 
it's 'kofer (nefesh)' in Hebrew, not 'kapparah', although they have the 
same root.)

> -- 
> Rob Strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641
> IBM Research, 30 Saw Mill River Road, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598

- Laura
--
Loving the truth is loving God.