HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sloane@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (Bob Sloane)
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.config,alt.folklore.computers,alt.fan.john-palmer
Subject: Re: RESULT: comp.society.folklore unmoderation fails 729:151
Date: 18 Dec 92 08:50:24 CST
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

In article <scs.724598988@hela.iti.org>, scs@iti.org (Steve Simmons) writes:
> A few quick connects to the nntp servers on destroyer, caen and uunet show
> that neither of the first two has the article while the third does.

Hmmm. We got it directly from caen, so it must have existed there at
one time:

>Path: kuhub.cc.ukans.edu!caen!destroyer!Tygra.Michigan.COM!news
>Message-ID: <1992Dec17.020219.23751news@tygra.Michigan.COM>

We also received:

>Path: kuhub.cc.ukans.edu!caen!nic.umass.edu!umassd.edu!root
>Newsgroups: alt.config,comp.society.folklore.ctl
>Subject: Re: newgroup comp.society.folklore
>Message-ID: <BzE085.J86@umassd.edu>
>From: root@cis.umassd.edu (System PRIVILEGED Account)
>Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 04:52:53 GMT
>Sender: usenet@umassd.edu (USENET News System)
>References: <1992Dec17.020219.23751news@tygra.Michigan.COM>
>Control: cancel <1992Dec17.020219.23751news@tygra.Michigan.COM>
>Organization: University of Massachusetts Dartmouth
>Lines: 21

which might explain why you couldn't find the article on caen or
destroyer. 
-- 
USmail: Bob Sloane, University of Kansas Computer Center, Lawrence, KS, 66045
E-mail: sloane@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu, sloane@ukanvax.bitnet, AT&T: (913)864-0444 
Lines: 27
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 13:33:30 MST
From: gritton@alaska.et.byu.edu (Jamie Gritton)
Organization: Brigham Young University, Provo UT USA
Newsgroups: news.groups,us.groups
Subject: Re: Court Rulings Hierarchy
Reply-To: gritton@byu.edu
	<adams.724019037@spssig> <yl#@byu.edu>
	<STSSRAM.92Dec17141315@st.unocal.COM>

stssram@st.unocal.COM (Bob Myers) writes:

> Hmmm.  How does it stand apart from "misc.*"?

   Well, nothings really stands apart from misc, but we still have
other hierarchies.

> Why not something like "misc.legal.courts.us", or if you must,
> "misc.courts.us"?

   Another reason I think it should have its own hierarchy is that the
distribution of this group may end up being quite different than in
other hierarchies (what with the state courts and all).

> Aren't new hierarchies pretty difficult to create (or rather, to
> propagate), Jamie?

   Indeed. But I hold that us.* isn't dead yet. It just might need
that "official sanction" that shouldn't be required.

> Maybe we can start a gritton.* hierarchy instead. :-)

   Actually, I was considering proposing misc.people.gritton.james
(need the last in case my brother decides to post). I definitely fall
under misc.*.
--
James Gritton - gritton@byu.edu - I disclaim
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: RFD: Rename rec.music.maker.synth to rec.music.synth?
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 23:33:59 GMT

In article <1992Dec14.230708.23302@bradley.bradley.edu> pwh@bradley.bradley.edu (Pete Hartman) writes:
>However, the consensus seems to have been that these AREN'T extraordinary
>circumstances.

True.  But then, wanting to do what has been called "ignoring the guidelines"
really means wanting to follow the guidelines, but disagreeing on how to apply
them.

If someone wants to do X, but really ends up doing Y, it is incorrect to say
that they "want to do Y".  The same applies with "desires", "demands", etc.
--
"the bogosity in a field equals the bogosity imported from related areas, plus
the bogosity generated internally, minus the bogosity expelled or otherwise
disposed of."  -- K. Eric Drexler

Ken Arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu, arromdee@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu)
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: elandal@archtwr.tower.nullnet.fi (Ismo Peltonen)
Subject: Re: RFD: rec.games.cyber renaming and unmoderation
Organization: Chambers of the Archmage
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 05:08:34 GMT
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

Bryant Durrell (durrell@pinball.arcade.uiowa.edu) wrote:
: In article <1992Dec9.034652.8098@archtwr.tower.nullnet.fi> elandal@archtwr.tower.nullnet.fi (Ismo Peltonen) writes:
: >millerl@wharton.upenn.edu wrote:
: >: Wouldn't it be simpler to phrase this as:
: 
: >: 1. remove rec.games.cyber
: >: 2. create rec.games.frp.cyber unmoderated
: 
: >  This has the possibility of leaving us with either no cyberpunk group
: >or two of them. Neither of those is very good.
: 
: However, apparently it's extremely difficult to unmoderate a moderated
: group, so the other way round has problems too.  I'd vote for running it
: as Loren suggests.  The possibility exists that we'll end up with no
: cyber group, but if such is the will of the net, it may be the best
: thing.  I think it's very unlikely that we'd end up with two cyber
: groups.

  It still has the drawback that if rec.games.cyber is left in existence,
it is left moderated. If we add unmoderation vote to that, it would be
a lot better.
  I'd very much like to see unmoderated rec.games.frp.cyber, but if that
fails, I'd like to see rec.games.cyber UNmoderated. How about:

1> unmoderate rec.games.cyber
2> create rec.games.frp.cyber unmoderated, and remove rec.games.cyber if
this passes.

Would it be within the guidelines, since in this case we ask only once, and
do two things if people respond yes? Would You be satisfied with this kind
of vote? Does essentially the same thing, but has the following possibilities:
1> we have moderated rec.games.cyber.
2> we have UNmoderated rec.games.cyber.
3> we have UNmoderated rec.games.frp.cyber.
-- 
Elandal		(aka Ismo Peltonen)			| Hanuripolku 5B15
home (UUCP)	elandal@archtwr.tower.NullNet.FI	| 00420 Helsinki
Univ (internet)	ipeltone@cc.Helsinki.FI			| FINLAND
data		+358-0-5072005			voice	+358-0-537515
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes)
Subject: Re: DAVE HAYES MAY BE RIGHT!
Reply-To: dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov
Organization: Jet Propulsion Lab - Pasadena, CA
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 00:31:30 GMT

jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
>>>You're forgetting the messages posted with an explicit Subject: line...
>>All ONE of them?
>At least two; after all, the one we saw here was a reply...

It was a reply to the CFV, right?

>>>I assume you have a better idea. Please state it. I might even go along with
>>>it, if it's workable.
>>It won't be to you. Trust me. 
>How do you know? Try me.

You're right. I don't know. 

>Besides, if not, I promise (and, I expect, others will too) to explain why,
>and you can use that to help refine the proposal.

(That's like the cat promising to eat the tuna.) You will get your chance,
don't worry. 

>>How about posting the articles more frequently?
>How frequently?

Once every three days.

>>How about explaining (in simple terms) what can happen (c.f.
>>alt.folklore.comptuers) in USENET politics?
>If the articles don't exist to your satisfaction, why not write one?

Hey, I'm working on improving things. Getting the topic back to this
vote, I really think users weren't kissed first. I'm sorry you disagree. 

>>Well...it was your implication.
>Nope. I was asking if you believed that. I certainly don't.

Sure seemed like an implication to me.

>No. I'm opposed to a straight revote because it's outside the rules...the only
>rules we have. 

(This tack again) I'm opposed to blind adherence to any external set of
standards of conduct. That's why I want a revote. 

>>How about misapplied but intelligent filtering of articles?
>Nope...if you don't read an article telling you something you don't like is
>about to happen, EVEN WHEN THE ARTICLE SAYS THAT WILL HAPPEN IN ITS SUBJECT,
>then you either don't care enough or you're too dumb to recognize it.

*poing*

Or you missed it because you're filtering subject lines, or you overlooked
the article, or you're not aware enough of every little usenet acronym to 
recognize a CFV...etc....
-- 
Dave Hayes - Network & Communications Engineering - JPL / NASA - Pasadena CA
dave@elxr.jpl.nasa.gov       dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov         ...usc!elroy!dxh

With a jar on his back, a blind man walked at night, holding a lamp. A
passer-by said: "What ignorance. Day and night is the same for you and
you're carrying a lamp in the dark!"
  
"The light is for blind people like you so that they won't knock against
From: fau@po.CWRU.Edu (Francis A. Uy)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: RESULT: rec.collecting subgroup passes 226:19
Date: 19 Dec 92 19:18:21 GMT
Reply-To: fau@po.CWRU.Edu (Francis A. Uy)
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


>NO:

>tkoppel%server@carl.org (Ted Koppel)

Wow, the Anchorman comes down hard on the losing side!
 Guess he must hate card collectors.  Someone should
 boycott.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg)
Subject: Re: IGNORE DAVE HAYES!
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 15:07:18 GMT
Organization: TC Telemanagement, Clearwater, FL

According to c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos):
>In article <2B2C9BBD.2D47@tct.com> chip@tct.com (Chip Salzenberg) writes:
>>According to jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (JKF):
>>>If everyone stopped replying to his posts, what would he reply to?
>>Words of wisdom.
>>To ignore Dave takes self-control; but the rewards are worth it.
>
>Ignoring people in the hope that they'll stop does not always work.

Of course it doesn't always work.  But I think it'll work with Dave.
-- 
Chip Salzenberg at Teltronics/TCT  <chip@tct.com>, <73717.366@compuserve.com>
  "you make me want to break the laws of time and space / you make me
   want to eat pork / you make me want to staple bagles to my face /
   and remove them with a pitchfork" -- Weird Al Yankovic, "You Make Me"
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: ksdavis@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Karleen S. Davis)
Subject: Re: STRAW VOTE ON NAME FOR NATIVE AMERICANS NEWSGROUP
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 22:38:32 GMT

I personally feel that it is a little premature for a straw poll.  We
have been luckily spared wild flamage so far, and I think that we can
continue to discuss this rationally.  I don't feel that I have enough
of an idea of which name I prefer to participate in a straw poll, and
the articles that have been posted thus far are quite informative and
helpful in this regard.  Mike has also kept the discussions on track.

My opinion on the name TODAY is that there might be value in creating
a group called soc.culture.native or soc.culture.indigenous that would
encompass all of the indigenous populations of the world.  Since it's
a worldwide hierarchy, I see some merit in making the scope of the
newsgroup also worldwide.  I don't think that the Native American
discussions will be swamped in such a group, and it would provide a
"mainstream" Usenet equivalent to the existing alt.native and the
existing Native-L (?) mailing list.  

At any rate, even if the newsgroup becomes too popular to serve the
interests of the Native American population, it would provide a good
jumping-off point for the later creation of a specifically Native
American group.  The traffic in the worldwide group would provide
solid evidence for the popularity of the more specific group, and it
would also not meet with the same objections that are being raised now
against creating soc.culture.native.american (no other *.*.native.*
newsgroups).

So, I prefer   soc.culture.native   or   soc.culture.indigenous.

-sz
From: jarleb@athena.uio.no (Jarle Brinchmann)
Subject: Re: RFD: sci.physics.research moderated
Reply-To: jarleb@athena.uio.no (Jarle Brinchmann)
Organization: Institute for Theoretical Astrophysics
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 18:16:46 GMT


After Greg mentioned sci.math.research, I took a look at it, and
I agree with him that if we can get s.p.research as good as that, 
I will pull back all my reservations.

				Jarle.


      ---------------------------------------
       Internet: jarleb@medusa.uio.no         
       or        Jarle.Brinchmann@astro.uio.no
      ---------------------------------------

Newsgroups: news.groups
From: thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi
Subject: Re: RFD: soc.culture.baltic/balticum
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: University of Helsinki
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 17:48:31 GMT

In article <1gacd1INNltk@rodan.UU.NET>, sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog) 
writes:

> This is a request for discussion of creating of the newsgroup
> soc.culture.baltic, which I think is long overdue.

After today's heated discussion, I think I second the motion!
 
> The group would be unmoderated.


Don't you think there might be some need of moderation?
 

> The group would be devoted to the countries Estonia, Latvia and
> Lithuania, often lumped together under the label "The Baltic states".


This creates some problems.
Finland is a Nordic and a Baltic state, the majority of population
of which consist of Baltic Finns (most of them Eastern Balts).

According the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, Finland, Estonia and
Latvia were "the Baltic countries". In the document:
"Die Baltischen La"nder, darunter Finnland, Estland und La"ttland".
According to these "gentlemen", Lithuania belonged to central Europe.

And in the history there were still another Baltic province in Russia,
the Ingrian lands.

What unites the "Baltics" (Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania) is the
Soviet occupation. This is a sign of NEGATIVE identity.

Estonia - perhaps even Latvia - belongs to the Nordic countries.
And Finland and Estonia are twin nations in the same manner
as Latvians and Lithuanians are. And Lithuanians have more things
in common with Poland than with Estonia, I suppose!

Should we continue to hold this NEGATIVE IDENTITY of Baltic
countries or create a new definition instead?

Of course, we could start "re-thinking" Baltic as a cluster
of states and cultures (even some Polish and Danish affairs
concern us, Sweden and St.Petersburg).

Why not call the group soc.culture.balticum?

Today, the Baltic sea unites our cultures and economies,
when the iron curtain does not exist any more! This might
denote a new POSITIVE identity.

 
> Topics would include culture, networking, language, politics,
> shortly anything you expect from a soc.culture.* group.
> 
> The prime language in the group would be English, but the use of local
> languages should not be condemned.

Wondeful! 

 
> Despite the existance of BALT-L, I think there is a need for s.c.baltic.
> If nothing else, a lot of the material in talk.politics.soviet, once
> you filtered away Mutlu/Arigc, concerns the Baltic countries.


Still, unfortunately, the "Baltic" discussion belongs to the "Soviet"
group as long as Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania are occupied
by the Russian army, against their will. This is a shadow from
the past, which we should get rid of as soon as possible.

 
> My planned schedule is to let the discussion period go before 
> Christmas, and the start the vote around January 7th, when things
> are back to normal.


I support soc.culture.balticum - let us work for the future!


with baltic regards
Tapani Hietaniemi, Universitas Helsingiensis
                   urbs fennorum
From: StarOwl@uiuc.edu (StarOwl)
Subject: Re: soc.culture.native.american
Reply-To: StarOwl@uiuc.edu
Organization: Actuarial Science Program at UIUC
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 15:06:39 GMT

warkent@ltisun14.epfl.ch (Ken Warkentyne) writes:


>The second hierarchy should be soc.culture.usa.X.  Using the
>adjective "american" to refer exclusively to the USA is unacceptable
>to many people.

I thought this group's intent was to be a newsgroup for the discussion
of items related to the {native|indigenous|aboriginal} peoples of
North and South America and Hawaii...not just the U.S.
--
Michael Adams				| Science without religion is lame;
Actuarial Science Program @ UIUC	| religion without science is blind.
StarOwl@uiuc.edu (NeXTmail OK)		| 		-- Thomas Edison
an692@anon.penet.fi (anonymously)	| NBCS: B1f+t-w+g+k++s+me+h-qv	     
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.native
From: emcguire@intellection.com (Ed McGuire)
Subject: Re: CALL FOR STRAW VOTE: NATIVE NEWSGROUP
Organization: Intellection, Inc.
	<1992Dec16.073427.15238@spdcc.com>
	<1992Dec17.173313.11161@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 05:01:05 GMT

In article <1992Dec17.173313.11161@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> hades@coos.dartmouth.edu (Hades) writes:

   If there is going to be a gateway between this group and a mailing
   list, then I think that it is an issue that should be voted upon by
   the members of UseNet who will be effected by the increase in
   traffic that this would bring about.

Excuse me, but moving a big mailing list to news will /decrease/
traffic.  News is more efficient than mail for wide distribution and
more convenient when the traffic is heavy because of the filter
features of newsreaders.  The existence of NATIVE-L, etc., is one of
my prime motivators for helping this project get started on the right
foot.

   If this is something that people feel they can just do, because
   they think it is a good thing, then you will certainly not have my
   vote for the group

Let me see if I understand.  If people feel it is a good thing, then
you oppose it?  Well, it's a free country.

   and you can believe that I will do everything that I can to get
   other to vote it down as well.

Do your worst.  I must say I am surprised to hear some of the greatest
potential opposition to this proposal coming from someone who was
active in a previous attempt.

   "Many of these people" do not have UseNet access at their sites,
   and therefore all of their votes are invalid.

And just how do you propose to identify them?
-- 
Ed McGuire                   1603 LBJ Freeway, Suite 780
Systems Administrator/       Dallas, Texas 75234
 Member of Technical Staff   214/620-2100, FAX 214/484-8110
Intellection, Inc.           <ed@intellection.com>
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: dis@halcon.dpi.udec.cl ()
Subject: Hispanoparlantes
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 10:36:48 GMT
Organization: Universidad de Concepcion, Concepcion - Chile
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL7]

Soy un hispano parlante de Chile que propone a los que hablen este idioma
a que se unan conmigo y se cree  un nuevo grupo donde podamos comunicarnos.
Ya que hasta el momento solo me comunico con compatriotas. Se que en EEUU hay
una gran cantidad de latinos, quizas hasta chilenos que quieran integrarse
y tirar unas lineas en este grupo.

	Que les parece me apoyan?

				E.BEEGER.P
				dis@halcon.dis.udec.cl

Xref: sparky news.groups:24531 news.admin.misc:810
From: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.misc
Subject: Re: PROPOSAL:  Yes votes >= 200+2*No Votes
Date: 17 Dec 92 03:25:09 GMT
Followup-To: news.groups
Organization: Mike Singletary Appreciation Society

In article <id.V2WV.CO7@ferranti.com> peter@ferranti.com (peter da silva) writes:
>In article <EMCGUIRE.92Dec15083301@fuller.intellection.com> emcguire@intellection.com (Ed McGuire) writes:
>> More accurately, I try to vote vote on all proposals,
>
>You shouldn't do that. You should only vote on a group if (a) you are
>interested in the group and expect to read it, or (b) you think there is
>something flawed about the proposal other than interest level.
>
>I think, as system administrator, I can safely ignore any input from *you*
>on the topic, and in the future will delete your name from the voter list
>before deciding to carry any groups. I suggest other news admins do the same.
>You are, of course, welcome to do the same at your site.

I will not do the same: I feel it's my obligation to honor any and all
votes received, no matter who they come from.  I also feel it's my
privilege to vote on any and all proposals which come to a vote; it's
a privilege that all of us enjoy, and have enjoyed, since we first
put this voting system into place.  Now, I don't always exercise that
privilege: I probably participate in 10-20% of the available votes.
But I have absolutely no problem with those who choose to vote on
each and every issue that comes before them.

Choosing to ignore votes from certain users because their rationale
may not be immediately apparent is emphatically not a good idea.
I would hope, for example, that the local election board here would
honor my choices for the school board, even though I have connection
with the schools here whatsoever...and I would be livid if they did not.

The system we have for voting on newsgroup issues is far from perfect;
there is plenty of room for improvement.  But selectively ignoring
the votes of any person or group of people is not the way.

---Rsk
Xref: sparky news.groups:24120 us.groups:30
From: adams@spss.com (Steve Adams)
Newsgroups: news.groups,us.groups
Subject: Re: Court Rulings Hierarchy
Date: 12 Dec 92 02:31:58 GMT
Organization: SPSS Inc.

gritton@alaska.et.byu.edu (Jamie Gritton) writes:

>adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes:
>
>> The 'us' hierarchy has been created...my site carries it.  It has
>> relatively little traffic at the moment.  I agree that this would be the
>> proper place to create this set of groups.  I like the idea.
>
>   The reason I like a court hierarchy is, being made of all moderated
>material of the same subject, it stands apart from any other
>hierearchies. While the current proposal is limited to the US, the
>possible international (especially the mentioned common-law) flavor
>would go against that.

Fair enough...I agree with you and the other posters who have said the same
thing.  I'll support a new hierarchy if one is proposed.  And I'll carry
it.

 -Steve
--
  The opinions expressed above are those of the author and not SPSS, Inc.
                         -------------------
   adams@spss.com                                  Phone: (312) 329-3522
   Steve Adams        "Space-age cybernomad"       Fax:   (312) 329-3558
From: stanley@skyking.OCE.ORST.EDU (John Stanley)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: DAVE HAYES MAY BE RIGHT!
Date: 12 Dec 92 03:22:46 GMT
Article-I.D.: gaia.1gblu6INNma2
Organization: Oregon State University, College of Oceanography
NNTP-Posting-Host: skyking.oce.orst.edu

In article <1992Dec12.003955.7503@jato.jpl.nasa.gov> dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov writes:
>The requirement that, in order to vote, one must wade through lots
>of seemingly irrelavent documentation (nowhere in which is mentioned
>the initials CFV or RFD) is a roadblock enough. 

In order to vote, one must "wade through" ONE document, which contains
the initials CFV, and almost always the string "Call For Votes". ONE
document, posted to the newsgroup that is being affected, is hardly
a "roadblock".
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: phardie@nastar.uucp (Pete Hardie)
Subject: Re: PROPOSAL:  Yes votes >= 200+2*No Votes
Organization: Digital Transmission Systems, Duluth, GA.
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 15:20:45 GMT

In article <id.8GUV.0CJ@ferranti.com> peter@ferranti.com (peter da silva) writes:
>In article <1992Dec14.172129.26214@nastar.uucp> phardie@nastar.uucp (Pete Hardie) writes:
>> Now, with the growth of the net, is this number still applicable?
>
>I don't know. Maybe it should be higher. Maybe it should be lower, since sites
>that carry EVERYTHING have more surplus capacity available, and sites that are
>selective (and tend to have higher marginal costs) are better off with quickly-
>expiring newsgroups instead of mailing lists that hang around forever.

This is a good point.  How much work is required by the sysadmins of mailing
list readers, to deal with the mail volume, versus the work required of
news admins to add a group and carry it?

A general query to the net admins - how often do you have trouble with 
readers of mailing lists not reading mail, or disk filling up due to mailing
list volume?  Does it seem to be more work than the newgroup work, and news
volume handling?


-- 
Pete Hardie:  phardie@nastar  (voice) (404) 497-0101
Digital Transmission Systems, Inc., Duluth GA
Member, DTS Dart Team           |  cat * | egrep -v "signature virus|infection" 
Position:  Goalie               |