HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mpoly@panix.com (Michael Polymenakos)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history
Subject: Re: More on Macedonia (was Re: Greece reacts sharply to remarks by
Date: 28 Jan 93 02:34:40 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix, NYC

In <C1GwvK.Crt@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> J.Theodore.Schuerzinger@dartmouth.edu (J. Theodore Schuerzinger) writes:

>I don't have a copy of the Treaty of San Stefano handy at the moment,
>but will look it up when I get the chance.  However, nobody of Greek
>extraction on the Net has seriously responded to the claims that Greece
>is trying to blockade and starve the Macedonians into giving up that
>name.

 OK. Here goes:

 a) Greece is only 1/4 of Skopjie's perimeter. There is an extencive
overland  network (Routes E80, E85, A1 and E871) that can be used to supply
Skopjie via Turkey and Bulgaria. 
 b) For goods already in Greece, the distance between te Greek/Bulgarian
point in Promachon/Kulata and the Bulgarian/FYRM point in Konjarevo is
less than 45Km. (27 miles) Unless Greece blockades Bulgaria, there can be no
effective blocate of the FYRM by Greece. Has Greece refused passage to any
truck heading into Bulgaria?
 c) How about the Albanian side?

Why the shortages then? Very simple: No money, no fuel. The Skopjie
government is using Greece's policy on "Macedonia" papers to cover up its
inability to buy fuel for the former republic.

>--Ted Schuerzinger

Michael
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: gd8f@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Gregory  Dandulakis)
Subject: Re: ONOMA TOY NEWSGROUP ! ! !
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 06:22:36 GMT

In article <rizos.727715051@cs.man.ac.uk> rizos@cs.man.ac.uk (Rizos Sakellariou) writes:
>Me aformh to ar0ro toy Alki Argyropoyloy, stalmeno apo ton
>kilitzir@cyprus.csd.uch.gr (Kilitzirakis christos 122), 0a
>h0ela na rwthsw ton apostolea, giati to onoma Greece, Greek, 
>klp. einai "xeftila" kai odhgei se syneirmoys toy typoy 
>"douloi"; Den prokeitai mhpws gia onomasia me arxaiotath
>riza, isws arxaioteri apo to Ellas, den htan o agwnistis toy
>'21 poy elege `Egw Graikos gennithika, Graikos the na pethanw',
>kai den htan oi idioi oi katoikoi toy neosystatoy mikroy 
>basileioy twn arxwn toy perasmenoy aiwna, poy protimoysan na
>onomazontai Graikoi;
>
>--r.


Kai pou o basilias hthele na legetai "Rois de Grecs" alla
h pulh kai oi alloi megaloi tou zhthsan na legetai "Rois de Hellenes"
gia na mhn exei dikaiwmata stous xristianous twn othwmanwn!

Gr

UG: Geia sou Rizo!
From: dk@zen.mp.co.umist.ac.uk (Dimitris Kalles)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,alt.news.macedonia
Subject: Re: Rob West + Steve Anderson
Date: 28 Jan 93 09:24:20 GMT
Organization: UMIST Sun 630, Manchester Computing Centre, UK

With respect to Mr Andy's letter about trials, in a country
like Greece every Greek national may be brought to trial whether he is
an Athenian, Macedonian, Thracean exc.

Dimitris

P.S. No doubt Andy you can followup this posting...
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history
Subject: Re: On Macedonia (was Re: Greece reacts sharply to remarks by  Danish foreign minister)
Date: 26 Jan 93 14:10:17 GMT
Organization: Keele University, England

From article <1993Jan25.213806.14723@informix.com>, by rika@informix.com (Rika Tsitsinia):
>>
>>That's not the first thing the Greeks tried to claim that was not theirs. I am
>>referring to the fact that there is no such thing as Greek Philosophy. The 
>>Greeks stole it from the Ancient Egyptians.
>>
>>Arthur
>>
> 
> 	At last, someone who read "Black Athena"!


And, poor fool, apparently believed it. This book must be one of the
silliest spawnings of the odious politically correct cult in America

Andy
 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: msg7038@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Michalis  Syrimis)
Subject: Linobambakoi &Argic
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 00:58:21 GMT

sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic) wrote: 

>>>Source #1: "Stavrinides", pp. 135-143.

>> I feel very humiliated. What kind of bullshit is the above reference?

>Who says "tamtams" are no damn good?

>> Would you please give us existing references?  Fiction has nothing to
>> do with reality.

>Go out in the "library" and look. There you are.

>Source: Pierre Oberling, "The Road to Bellapais: The Turkish Cypriot
>        Exodus to Northern Cyprus", Social Science Monographs, Boulder,
>        1982, ISBN 88033-000-7, pp. 81-84.

Now, here's an unbiased reference. A book that does not
have a single reference writen by a Greek author.

So what's the story with the "Stavrinides" reference does it exist or not?


>Source: Zaim M. Nedjatigil, "Cyprus: Constitutional Proposals and
>        Developments," (Nicosia, 1977), pp. 74-81.

I 'll check this one out.
Serdar note that I changed news group name on the heading and
now this will go to both social.culture greek and turkish.

The palik with the palouk.
-- 
Michalis Syrimis
University of Illinois
Urbana-Champaign
From: 00mlschmalz@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Constantinople
Date: 22 Jan 93 09:02:19 GMT
Organization: Ball State University, Muncie, In - Univ. Computing Svc's


Hello.

I am a history student at Ball State University, Muncie Indiana, and 
I'm looking for some relatively obscure information on the 
city of Constantinople amd its environs.  This information would 
ideally center on two facets of life: 1) the beliefs, legends, folk 
tales, mysticism, and such of the inhabitants of that region in the 
early 13th century, and 2) what the Franks of the Fourth Crusade did
to the city.

All I can find on #1 is a reference to a book which a professor has 
checked out for the year - I can't find anything at the public library 
on this.  On #2, all I see are things like:  "Well, there was stuff 
here before the Franks, and it was gone afterwards, so they probably 
took it."  There seems to be a tremendous gap (like 250 years) but 
I am in the midwestern USA, which probably explains the apparent
scarcity of information on Constantinople, et al....

...anyway, I figure this is a great place to get a reference list 
for these topics, so I come to you asking for your help.  If you can 
send me references to books, documents, maps, ANYTHING that might help 
me with this research, I would greatly appreciate it.

I will check this board for about two weeks, so postings will work if 
you believe others would like this information.

Thanks in advance,

----
   Sparky!!
   marc@bsu-cs.bsu.edu
   00mlschmalz@virgo.bsuvc.bsu.edu
From: tunal@mizar.usc.edu (Tamer Unal)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Demirel threatens Cyprus
Date: 27 Jan 93 22:12:06 GMT
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: mizar.usc.edu

ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ) writes:

>serdar@fawlty8.eng.monash.edu.au (Serdar Boztas) writes:
>>>From NEOS KOSMOS, Monday 25/1/93
>>>Demirel: "The Cypriots may regret the day they were born from their mothers".
>>It seems like an answer to a provocative
>>journalist who was looking for exactly this reaction
> To me it seems like an answer that a "pezeveng" would give.
> Such a person Demirel is !!!  

Thanks for this wonderful insight and sharing it with us.

And what description would you use for messrs Ioannides et. al. who
abandoned Greek Cypriots in 1974?
 
> Panos Tamamidis
-- 
Serdar Boztas
posting from someone else's account with their permission
normally at serdar@fawlty8.eng.monash.edu.au
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: terziogl@ee.rochester.edu (Esin Terzioglu)
Subject: Re: Linovambakoi (Re: Turkish Cypriots reject ENOSIS)
Keywords: Ali Pasas, The King, Makarios, Chrysostomos, Vasiliu, Enosis, Palikaria, Akritas
Organization: Univ of Rochester, College of Engineering and Applied Science
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 02:22:01 GMT

In article <C19xKI.Gxs@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ) writes:
>terziogl@ee.rochester.edu (Esin Terzioglu) writes:
>
>>2) When Ottomans conquered Cyprus, they enslaved women and put them in
>>   their harems. Hey Panos, check it out man, you could be a descendent of
>>   one of those. This "enslaving women" was done in mainland Greece as well.
>>   So if there is anyone out there who claims that he/she is pure Greek,
>>   he/she had better trace his/her family line back to fifteenth century.
>
> According to the above statement, some Turks should be checking if they
> are descentants of Greeks, not the other way you are suggesting.

Also, according to above, MANY Greeks should be checking if they are     
descendants of Turks!!! It goes both ways Mr.Tamamidis. Think it over, 
ive it another try, you will find out that it indeed goes both ways!!

Take care of yourself,
Regards

E.T. 

> Alper, have you read the above?  
>
>>regards,
>>E.T.
>
> Panos Tamamidis


Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:12586 alt.news.macedonia:268
From: bu008@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Brandon D. Ray)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,alt.news.macedonia
Subject: Re: Rob West + Steve Anderson
Date: 27 Jan 1993 01:15:35 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bu008@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Brandon D. Ray)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, irakliot@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Leo J. Irakliotis) says:

>In article <1k2qqhINNbmc@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, bu008@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Brandon D. Ray) writes:
>
>|> With these revisions, it seems even clearer that Macedonia has no aggressive
>|> intent.  What more could anyone possible want?  Does *Greece* have a provision
>|> in *its* Constitution promising "not to interfere in the sovereign rights of
>|> other states and their internal affairs"?
>
>To begin with your later question, yes.
>
>But of course Greece is not the issue here. Perhaps you missed the fact
>the the FYRM consitution still referes to Macedonians in neighboring
>countries. There are no "macedonians" in neighboring countries, yet they
>persist on that.
>
Actually, there are a great many people of Macedonian ancestry living in 
various Balkan countries, including Greece.  It is true that the Greek
gov't has spent most of the 20th century trying to deny this, and 
try systematically to stamp out all vestiges of Macedonian language and
culture...such as requiring Greek citizens of Macedonian descent to 
change their names to Greek ones, and prohibiting the establishment of
schools which teach in the Macedonian language...but that doesn't change
the *facts*.
>
>|> But this is all *really* silly.  Does anyone actually think Macedonia could
>|> be a threat to Greece?  Do you people realize that if Macedonia *did* attack
>|> Greece that this would trigger the NATO Alliance, and that, in effect, 
>|> Macedonia would be attacking not just Greece, which is merely 10 ten
>|> times their size, but also Germany, the UK, Spain, Italy, Norway, the
>|> United States, etc.?  Can you say "suicide"?  I knew you could....
>
>And what about if FYRM joints NATO? Or WEU? Any ideas?
>
I am not aware that Macedonia has applied to NATO.  Why don't we deal with
one boogeyman at a time....although even if this *did* occur, that would
mean that Greece would "only" have Macedonia outnumbered 10 to one.  And,
of course, there remains the *fact* that there is nothing on the record
to support the ridiculous assertion that Maceonia plans to aggress against
Greece.
>
>-- 
>Leo J Irakliotis                 irakliot@eva.lance.colostate.edu
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>Electrical Engineering                      l.irakliotis@ieee.org
>Colorado State U
>(303) 491-2021                              Optical Computing Lab
>

-- 
******************************************************************************
The opinions expressed by the author are insightful, intelligent and very
carefully thought out.  It is therefore unlikely that they are shared by the
University of Iowa or Case Western Reserve University.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: scg@bashan.cs.wisc.edu ( Scg)
Subject:  TESTarw
Organization: U of Wisconsin Madison - Computer Sciences
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 09:32:37 GMT

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Forwarded-by: soc-culture-greek-post@cs.wisc.edu
    (for more information, send a mail with subject "help post" to
    soc-culture-greek-request@cs.wisc.edu or do a "finger scg@cs.wisc.edu")
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Forwarded message follows:

From lmcstst@noah.ericsson.se  Wed Jan 27 08:30:59 1993
Received: from cs.wisc.edu by bashan.cs.wisc.edu; Wed, 27 Jan 93 08:30:59 -0600
Received: from mailgate.ericsson.se by cs.wisc.edu; Wed, 27 Jan 93 08:30:53 -0600
Received: from ericom (ericom.ericsson.se) by mailgate.ericsson.se (4.1/SMI-4.1-MAILGATE1.10)
	id AA13203; Wed, 27 Jan 93 15:30:43 +0100
Received: from noah.ericsson.se by ericom (4.1/SMI-4.0-ERICOM1.9)
	id AA15972; Wed, 27 Jan 93 15:30:35 +0100
Received: from cheetah.ericsson.com by noah.ericsson.se (4.1/SMI-4.0)
	id AA22920; Wed, 27 Jan 93 09:30:17 EST
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 93 09:30:17 EST
From: lmcstst@noah.ericsson.se (Stamos Stamos)
Message-Id: <9301271430.AA22920@noah.ericsson.se>
To: soc-culture-greek-post
Subject: TESTarw



######
#     #   ####    ####    ####
#     #  #    #  #    #  #    #
######   #    #  #    #  #    #
#     #  #    #  #    #  #    #
#     #  #    #  #    #  #    #
######    ####    ####    ####



Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:12460 alt.news.macedonia:163
From: anderson@sapir.cog.jhu.edu (Stephen Anderson)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,alt.news.macedonia
Subject: Re: Ellemann-Jensen on Macedonia
Date: 24 Jan 93 19:17:33 GMT
	<Jan23.210931.28890@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>
Organization: Dept. of Cognitive Science, The Johns Hopkins University
In-reply-to: irakliot@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu's message of 23 Jan 93 21:09:31 GMT

>>>>> On 23 Jan 93 21:09:31 GMT, irakliot@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Leo J. Irakliotis) said:


	LJI> The name of that FYRM is just the tip of the iceberg.
	LJI> There are other issues to be resolved, like the
	LJI> unacceptable Intro and articles 49 and 74 in their
	LJI> consitution.

Without (yet) venturing to respond to the other assertions in this
posting, this point brings up something rather important. Although
I've heard a great deal from all sides about this proposed
constitution, I haven't actually seen it, and don't know where to look
for it. I believe one of the first postings in this group asked that
someone with an on-line copy post it. The response to this apparently
reasonable request was a flame about how since there couldn't be any
such state as Macedonia, naturally there couldn't be any consitution
of such a place, but I think it would be more constructive for all
concerned to let it speak for itself.

Of course, if no one has it on line, I'd also be happy to have a
reference to some reasonably accessible place where I could find it in
print.

--Steve Anderson
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: kardaras@en.ecn.purdue.edu (George S Kardaras)
Subject: MACEDONIA
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 06:16:49 GMT

Home of Alexander the Great, but not widely explored by tourists,
this  largest  of  Greek  provinces  has  more to offer than many
think.  As a result, I  thought  it  would  be  a  good  idea  to
describe  in  a  series of postings various regions and cities of
this province.  Let me start with Halkidiki as a whole:



HALKIDIKI
---------

Like the three-pronged  trident  of  Poseidon,  Halkidiki  points
downward  into  the  Aegean.  Yet  the  narrow peninsulas of this
curious geographical formation are hardly as threatening  as  the
sea-god's weapon; rather, they are among the most benign areas in
Greece, and are shared by three extremes of Greek society. On the
far  eastern  prong  is  the  restricted region of Mt. Athos, the
largest enduring monastic community in  Western  society. In  the
other  side,  geographically  and socially, Kassandra serves as a
playground for sun  worshippers  from  Thessaloniki  and  Athens.
Sandwiched  between the lands of Greece's past and present is the
peninsula of Sithonia, which retains much of its  wild,  pristine
state.

Most of the  beautiful  Halkidiki  northern  interior  is  better
viewed  from a bus rather than during a day's visit to a village,
but you  might  consider  breaking  the  trip  for  a  few  hours
in Poligiros, where there is an archeological museum, or in Arnea, 
a town known for its wines and hand-woven fabrics. Farther  west,
and  more  difficult  to  get  to, is the much-celebrated cave at
Petralona, where the skull of a primeval human from 700,000BC was
found. The beaches on the west of the Halkidikian mainland and on
the bays between the peninsulas are best in all the three  months
of  the  summer  since  they are the center of attraction of many
Greek and German tourists.

George S. Kardaras
Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:12610 soc.culture.europe:11460 soc.history:11008
From: dik@cwi.nl (Dik T. Winter)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history
Subject: Re: More on Macedonia (was Re: Greece reacts sharply to
Date: 28 Jan 93 02:05:08 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.greek
Organization: CWI, Amsterdam

In article <C1GwvK.Crt@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> J.Theodore.Schuerzinger@dartmouth.edu (J. Theodore Schuerzinger) writes:
 > I don't have a copy of the Treaty of San Stefano handy at the moment,
 > but will look it up when I get the chance.  However, nobody of Greek
 > extraction on the Net has seriously responded to the claims that Greece
 > is trying to blockade and starve the Macedonians into giving up that
 > name.
 > 
They will not.  In their opinion they do not.  It is just that everything
addressed to Macedonia is returned to the sender because the address is
wrong.  (And apparently there is in the Greek mind no correct address to
send to.)
-- 
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj  amsterdam, nederland
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn  amsterdam, nederland; e-mail: dik@cwi.nl
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,alt.news.macedonia
From: irakliot@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Leo J. Irakliotis)
Subject: Re: Ellemann-Jensen on Macedonia
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 21:09:31 GMT
Reply-To: irakliot@lance.colostate.edu
Organization: Engineering Network Services, Colorado State University

In article <C85PERWE.93Jan23143806@kol2.IDA.LiU.SE>, c85perwe@IDA.LiU.SE (Per Westling) writes:
|>  So far everyone (at least here up north) has
|> got the impression that it is the name that is the problem.

The name of that FYRM is just the tip of the iceberg. There are other issues
to be resolved, like the unacceptable Intro and articles 49 and 74 in their
consitution.

What the people up there in North as you say Per, cannot understand, is that
the name "Macedonia" impplies the existence of an ethnic group called 
"Macedonians". There's none. The population in the GYRM is a mixture of
many ethnic groups and none of them is Macedonian.

What also most people fail to understand is the potential threat FYRM poses
to the area. The "raison d'etre" of this artificial country is to gain an 
exit to the mediterranean --- obviously through Greek territories. And in such
an event you understant that Greece will defend itself. Now how does it strike
you to have a local war down there involving an EC and NATO and WEU member?
All these organizations should move to assist Greece, right? That's the
purpose of NATO and WEU: provide assistance to a defending member. So why
the hell do we have all the way down, to get the international support we
need now and resolve the issue peacefully and thru diplomatic channels?

Greece is the only EC and WEU member in the region and can play a significant
role to the welfare of the FYRM should the communists of Skopje get some common
sense and drop their irrational demand on the name.

Doesn't it strike you all too odd that they persist on that issue for more
than a year? Anyother reasonable state would reconciliate, but not a state
ruled by Communists (after all President Gligorov is a communist, face it).

Doesn't it strike you all to odd that FYRM rejected all the initiatives for
negotiations, arbitration etc? 

And aren't you concerned with the explicitly expressed objection of the 33%
of the population of the FYRM that they don't want their country named
Macedonia because such a name will suppress their Albanian ethnic identity?

And aren't you surprised a bit that the US Government in 1944 fully endorsed
what appears to be today the position of the Greek governemnt?


-- 
Leo J Irakliotis                 irakliot@eva.lance.colostate.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Electrical Engineering                      l.irakliotis@ieee.org
Colorado State U
(303) 491-2021                              Optical Computing Lab
From: hminassi@sdcc13.ucsd.edu (Eh bien continuons.)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Major Irc Meeting II
Keywords: Everyone Welcome
Date: 23 Jan 93 10:11:34 GMT
Organization: University of California, San Diego


Parev!!!

There will be a meeting on IRC this
Saturday, 1/23/93 at 1p.m. Pacific
time (west coast time) on channel
#Hayastan.  IRC permits conference-
type chatting via the modem.

From Unix Type:  irc    [Return]
Then Just Type:  /join #Hayastan    [Return] 
Then you're all set to communicate with
fellow Armenians.

Looking forward to seeing you there!


H. Minassian
From: wiener@duke.cs.duke.edu (Edward Wiener)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Greek Philosophy is a joke
Date: 26 Jan 93 20:59:22 GMT
Organization: Duke University Computer Science Dept.; Durham, N.C.


>Why are the Greeks given credit for the development of Philosophy as a 
>science. They had no contribution science of Philosophy, because the tenets
>of Philosophy were laid down thousands of years before the Greeks were even
>cognizant of themselves. The formalization of Philosophical thought and
>ideology was developed by the Ancient Egyptians from whom the Greeks merely
>plagarized. These early African people educated the Greeks, who were at that
>time known as the Pyrhennians, and gave them there culture. I just don't
>appreciate the way the history books have been rigged to perpetuate this 
>myth of Greek Philosophy.

>Arthur


   Were you high on 'mutlu' when you wrote this?  Before you bother to
   reply to that rhetorical question, keep in mind that I've concluded
   the answer on the basis of your inimitable claim that "the Greeks were
   known as Pyrhennians."  By the way, if your posting was intended to
   assert that Greek Civilization was plagiarized from the "black"
   Egyptians, then you'd better produce some evidence, old chap.
   And, what's more, if you will go as far as to assert, as Spike Lee
   has done, that Cleopatra was black, then you'd best remember that
   Cleopatra was the only person in Egypt about whom one can say with
   complete certainty that she COULD NOT HAVE BEEN BLACK.  She was
   a blue-blooded Macedonian.  BTW, let me mention, just for kicks,
   that Spike Lee (a fine film director, I might add) and others also
   claim that Hannibal was black.  Sorry, but I feel that this shit
   has gone too far.

-- Eduard
Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:12543 soc.culture.europe:11423 soc.history:10971
From: cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history
Subject: Re: More on Macedonia (was Re: Greece reacts sharply to remarks by Danish foreign)
Date: 26 Jan 93 14:05:52 GMT
Organization: Keele University, England

From article <C1FJB7.Dwu@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, by ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ):

> 
>  What was originally Macedonia? Certainly, not Skopje.
> 
 
>  Panos Tamamidis

Who were originally the 'Hellenes' - a small group living in Thessaly and
that was it. This looking to 'origins'  is pointless, we can always go
back one step further no doubt to Pooh-Bah's protoplasm if we want.
Ancient History has *nothing* to contribute to today's political problems.


Andy
Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:12462 alt.news.macedonia:164