Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: The problem of evil
From: adams@spss.com (Steve Adams)
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 19:54:53 GMT
 <adams.714838459@spssig> <1992Aug26.192545.9701@samba.oit.unc.edu>
Organization: SPSS Inc.

>>> is Steve.Gross@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Steve Gross) 
>> is me adams@spss.com (Steve Adams)
> is Steve.Gross@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Steve Gross) 

>---- Hello Mr. Adams, nice to be hearing from you again.
Charmed! ;-)  Glad to respond any time.

One of us has got to change names! ;-)

>>>Thank you Mr. Adams for the ex nihilo thing again, but it is a silly 
>>>question. If I can think of a reason for evil existing, then surely God 
>>>has a better one. 
>>
>>Well, I said that none of these things came into being without God.   I
>>also said that I think that you believe that God created everything ex-nihilo 
>>(out of nothing).  If this is the case, how do you conclude that he didn't
>>create evil?
>>
>>In other words, if there was notghing, and now there is evil, it had to be
>>created, right? 

>---- I disagree.  Evil does not necessarily have to be created.  it can
>form and then manifest itself in any person or thing that is capable of
>thought, and feeling.  As is the case in the OT where sin was found in
>Satan.  He was certainly capable of thought, and could feel.  I submit
>that God created him totally good, and that through the feeling of
>jealousy, sin formed, and manifested itself in the form of eventual evil.

You are taking one step back.  That's fine.  Satan had some innate ability
to decide to oppose God on some point.  This innate ability came from
somewhere.  That 'somewhere' is from God.  We can take this back as far as
you like, but if God created everything, then he created the capacity for
evil.  The capacity for evil means the possibility of evil.  The
possibility means the option exists.

No matter how far you reduce it, God is responsible.  In this case, God
created Satan with the ability to feel jealous.  Therefore, God is
responsible, even though Satan is to blame.  

I'm not trying to lay fault on God.  Responsibility does not imply
culpability.  For example, if I lend my car to someone who gets into an
accident which they caused, I am responsible, but not at fault.  My insurance 
pays to fix my car (if I have the right coverage), but he gets the points on 
his license.

>>>The passages in Isaiah never say that God created evil, only darkness
>>>according to your translations of the verses.  God simply CANNOT be
>>>responsible for evil.  If he is, then the whole of the bible is false.  I
>>>refuse to accept that.
>>
>>Here are the Isaiah verses again, from 3 translations:
>>
>>Isaiah 45:7
>>
>>   "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create
>>    disaster;  I, the Lord do all these things." [NIV]
>>
>>   "The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing wwll-being and
>>    creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these." [NASB]
>>
>>   "I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe; I
>>    the Lord do all these things." [NRSV]
>>
>>
>>You seem to have missed the second part of each verse!  Here, I'll break it
>>out:
>>
>>NIV : bring prosperity, create disaster
>>NAS : cause well-being, create calamity
>>NRSV: make weal, create woe
>>
>>You can't deny this and still hold that you follow the Bible!  God himself
>>says that he creates 'disaster' or 'calamity' or 'woe'.  Sounds fairly
>>clear.

>---- To which I heartily agree.  I still assert, however, that God neither
>is, nor can ever be held responsible for EVIL.  for disaster, yes.  for
>calamity, yes.  for woe, yes.  BUT NOT FOR EVIL.
>(sfg)

Hmm.  If Hitler's thugs showed up on your doorstep and killed your entire
family, that would be a calamity, a disaster and woe.  It would also be, in
the opinion of most, evil.

Read the book of Job.  Really.  It is a perfect example of this.  All
manner of disasters come upon Job, from Satan, with God's BLESSING!
Remember, this is a bet between God and Satan.  The things that happen to
Job's family and Job are evil by just about any definition I know.

Again, God created Satan, who was capable of sinning.  Thus God is
ultimately responsible.

>>God MUST be responsible for evil!  He must!  Otherwise you are giving the
>>power to create ex-nihilo to some other being!  We aren't to *blame* God,
>>but He is responsible for evil existing.  The blame falls upon us, since it
>>is we who chose to sin.
>>
>---- Not giving the credit, or power to some other being, just attributing
>the ability to choose to an angelic being.  God doesn't HAVE to be
>responsible for anything.  
God is responsible for EVERYTHING!  He created EVERYTHING!  He must be
responsible for it then!  There was nothin except God before.  Assume for
the moment that I can create a being (ala Frankenstein's monster) with free
will.  I create such a being who then procedes to kill 100's of people.  Am
I not responsible?  Even if I intended for it to always do good?

>As I said before, the ability was present in
>all the angelic beings, but as the Bible records it, only Lucipher
>exhibited signs of jealousy, only Lucipher had the desire to be like unto
>God.  The reasoning for this is simple.  Lucipher was the closest thing to
>God at that time, and was jealous.  Because of his jealousy, sin started
>to form in him.  
OK, this is fine.  But if Lucifer was created with the ability to be
jealous, or with the ability to desire to be like God, then God, as the
creator is responsible.

>because of the sin found in Lucipher, he was cast out of
>heaven.  Because he was cast out of heaven, he harboured even more
>jealousy for God, coupled with hate, etc... .  Lucipher is dubbed God of
>this world when Adam falls.  Because of Adam's fall, humanity is under the
>control of Satan, who is now evil.  
Well, unless God created the ability or propensity in Lucifer to become
Satan, Lucifer could have never done it.  This is reducto ad absurdum.  You
just go back a step.  Ultimately, we will get back to God.

Secondly, the only portions of humanity under Satan's control are those who
wish to be.  Scripture clearly tells us that if Jesus is in our hearts,
Satan cannot throw him out.  Nor can we be snatched away.  We can turn to
evil of our own volition, but, just like Adam & Eve, we must reject God and
His teachings before Satan has any power over us.

My usual comments on Satan?  He is a lying, slimy, scumbag who is a wimp
with no power.  Jesus gave us the model to remove Satan from our lives.  We
simply need to rebuke Satan in the name of Jesus Christ.  Sure, Satan
tempts us, but we are under our own control...

>Never once did God MAKE evil.  never
>once was God responsible for evil's origins.  If indeed God can be blames
>for anything, it would be that he created the angels, specifically
>Lucipher with the ability to think and feel.
Bingo!  And therefore God is responsible!  QED.

God Bless...
 -Steve
--
 The opinions expressed above are those of the author and not SPSS, Inc.
                        -------------------
     adams@spss.com                           Phone: (312) 329-3522
     Steve Adams                              Fax:   (312) 329-3558
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc