From: brennan@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Joseph Brennan)
Subject: Re: PATH (was Re: H&M )
Reply-To: brennan@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Joseph Brennan)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 19:38:07 GMT

Hudson Terminal is located to the east of World Trade Center, and at a
higher level (closer to the street).  I say "is" because believe it or
not the track level area is still there, used a truck delivery space
for WTC.  A photograph of a truck in the space was in the PATH Gazette
a couple of years ago.  I would love to see this!  I'm not sure where
the entrance is.

HT was under private property, under the Hudson Terminal Buildings, a
pair of buildings on the west side of Trinity Place-- ironically they
were "twin towers", as the World Trade Center now calls its own
110-story monsters.  This puts it adjoining the BMT Cortlandt St
station, or within a few feet anyway.  A visit to the Cortlandt St
station today shows it connects to the main shopping-mall concourse of
the WTC, and it is perhaps a hundred feet west from there to the PATH
station, whereas the same access used to go directly into the Hudson
Terminal station concourse.

In article <102358@netnews.upenn.edu> sfsmith@mail.sas.upenn.edu
(Sandy F. Smith, Jr.) writes:

>The H&M tunnels were constructed to the same dimensions as those of the IRT,
>as the H&M management envisioned the possibility of abtaining a franchise
>from the City of New York that would enable it to operate through the city
>subway tunnels in the future.

The dimensions used were simply the standard dimensions for the
elevated lines and subway in New York (and elsewhere).  The BRT's
choice of wider cars for its subways in 1913 was a break with
tradition.  

While the H&M did join talks between the City and the IRT and BRT
companies for subway routes around 1911 or so, I've never been sure
how serious their intentions were.  I'm suspicious about it being some
kind of negotiating ploy by the City or one of the others, but then
what was in it for the H&M is unclear.  

The H&M did have franchises for extensions.  The one most seriously
considered was north on 6th Ave to 42d St and then over to Grand
Central.  Space was left for this line to fit between the levels of
the original subway and the new Queensborough Line in 42d Street.  The
5th Ave station was built off to the south side of 42d so it wouldn't
use the H&M's space (also true, it was made easier to build by not
placing it under the older subway).  The H&M completed construction in
1911 and it became clear within a few years that it wasn't going to
make much money, or any money, and all further plans were shelved.
Bear in mind that the H&M was built entirely by private capital and
had to recover costs from fares, unlike the IRT and BRT subway lines.

The PATH cars are of slightly different dimensions than the IRT, but
pretty close.  The PATH cars are widest about 3 feet above the floor,
where the IRT sides are straight vertical, so the PATH cars might not
clear a few things along IRT tracks; and the IRT cars might need a slice
in the upper corners (where PATH cars are rounded) to avoid hitting the 
tube wall on sharp curves.  Certainly a car of compromise dimensions 
could be designed.

Joe Brennan     Columbia University in the City of New York
                ("affiliation shown for identification only")
via Internet:   brennan@columbia.edu
via BITNET:     brennan@cunixf

From: wbrill@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Warren Brill)
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 22:48:07 GMT
Subject: Re: more on tunnels (was Re: moffat tunnel)
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA