From: dsc@gemini.tmc.edu (Doug S. Caprette Bldg. 28 W191 x3892)
Subject: Re: 20/20 and Spanking
Organization: NASA GSFC CDP VLBI
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 01:47:58 GMT

In article <1992Nov4.142940.13535@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> arodgers@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Angus H Rodgers) writes:
>In <25769@optima.cs.arizona.edu>
>shack@cs.arizona.edu (David Shackelford) writes:
>
>>In article <1992Nov3.190936.27602@das.harvard.edu>
>albert@endor.uucp (David Albert) writes:
>
>>But disobediance might imply a threat to life.  If I catch a 7 YO
>>playing with matches, he's going to get spanked.  If I catch him
>>doing it again, he'll get spanked harder.  Absolutely no playing
>>with matches will be tolerated.  If spanking doesn't work, I'll
>>go through everything I can think of, and get help if nothing
>>works.
>
>>The result in this situation is all that matters to me.  If you can
>>achieve 100% results using another method, go ahead.  Just be sure
>>either it's 100% effective or you have a good insurance policy.
>
>As you seem to be genuinely concerned with getting results, for the
>sake of the child's safety, presumably you have investigated the
>effectiveness of spanking as a deterrent? Presumably, also, you have
>considered the possible harmful effects of the spanking itself? 
>

I contend that a spanking which is not physically injurious, and is adminis-
tered clearly as a consequence of a specific action on the part of the child
is not harmful.  I have considered the issue.  Clearly, spanking a child
under other circumstances is not punishment and would be harmful.  Clearly
an injurious (physically or emotionally) punishment would be harmful by 
definition.

>
>But these must remain mere presumptions, because you haven't 
>actually said what your reasons are for adopting this practice,
>in preference to other available techniques (or sheer abstinence).
>This is in contrast to several of the anti-spanking contributors,
>and it weakens your case.
>

Let me jump in with an example relevent to the spanking other people's 
kids as well.

You perhaps, have had the privilege of raising one or more children from
an embryo.  In this case a three year came under into my care, raised by 
others.  Joey soon found that running into traffic was an effective way of
getting attention.  Evidently he did not grasp the concept that he could
be seriously injured or killed by this action.  There were no fortuitous
accidents resulting in injury or death to serve as a lesson to him. (:-)
If you think it is possible to continuously restrain a three year old while
trying to get groceries from a store to the car, care for other children etc, 
you've never tried it with Joey.  

I tried sincerely talking to him, getting down to his level and all that.
His responses included various combinations of turning his face away, covering
his ears, crying, screaming, laughing, running away if unrestrained (and back
into traffic, I might add, if at all possible), and hitting struggling and
kicking if restrained.  I gather that a timeout is something like making the
child go to their room, sit in a chair or generally refrain from activity.
This is not an option available in a parking lot with a child who will break
your grip and bolt away without warning.  Restraining him, bundling him into
the car, and getting him home to where timeout was an option clearly would not 
have worked--he wouldn't remember what it was all about.

I tried scolding with similar results.

Lots of quality time to satisfy his need for attention, reinforcing his good
behaviour, reasoning with him when he as older, timeouts--all of these things
eventually worked fine.  They were the long term solution.  Punishment does not 
produce good behaviour it only discourages specific 'bad' behaviours.  The
problem I was faced with was assuring his survival in the short term.

Spanking stopped him from running around in parking lots, right away.  It was
not the first thing I tried or considered, see above.  It was the last because
it worked and it worked right away.  There have been times when I have felt a-
shamed for wrongfully, or wrongly punishing children--such as scolding when it
turned out they were telling the truth.  But I would never have forgiven myself,
nor should I have been forgiven by others, if Joey had been hurt or killed
because I had continued to use ineffective methods of disipline due to a
personal philosophical rule:   'never never spank someone else's children.'

Note, that this would be just as true if spanking had been ineffective and I
had not gone on to something else.  (But what else, I don't know).

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