HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kaarts@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Kenneth John Aarts)
Subject: Re: More on fantasies and discussing one or two (was) Re: Rape in any form ...
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 15:27:45 GMT

In <SYNTH.92Jul28195418@deepthought.unm.edu> synth@deepthought.unm.edu (Synth F. Oberheim) writes:

>lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble) writes:

>Laz> synth@deepthought.unm.edu (Synth F. Oberheim) writes:
>> Based on personal experience and observation -- namely, growing up
>> around and being socialized with other males -- I've seen that most men
>> visualize a scenario of simply "getting sex" at the expense of whoever
>> is on the receiving end -- a purely selfish goal. 

>Laz> And just how many of these males you were socialized with have
>Laz> gone into detail with you about their rape fantasies, Synth?

>Uh, all of them.  They offered the details; I didn't have to ask.  It
>was mostly gleaned in casual male-bonding-type situations.

What part of the country are you from that friends spontaneously tell people
about their rape fantasies?  There must be some unusual story behind this.

Ken
From: dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: Rape (what else?)
Date: 22 Jul 92 08:39:29 EST
Organization: University of Toledo, Computer Services

In article <1992Jul22.042649.1651@leland.Stanford.EDU>, farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf) writes:

> 
>>Yes, but your significant other has not handcuffed you and dragged you into the
>>diner. Nor have they forced you to see Hudson Hawk. You consented by going in
>>with them.
> 
> My point in those scenes was to say that if some hetero men are really
> confused about date rape, they can behave sexually with the same
> concern with which they behave in nonsexual situations.  I can't
> imagine any man that concerned with date rape dating a woman and
> ignoring her when she says no to Chinese food or a Bruce Willis movie.
> Why ignore her wishes when she says no to sex?

Hmmm. Probably some truth to that. I would believe that fits mor einto the mold
of abusive relationship where the male does as he pleases. I have seen enough
relationships where the total jerk is dating someone nice, and he ignores and
verbally abuses her her in public. I suppose if she were to say no to sex, 
he'd probably go forward anyway.
 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, my wording of that first sentence says just the
> opposite of what I meant.  I intended it to read that date rape is
> more often not "Well, I said no, but he insisted and I felt helpless,"
> but a pinning down or beating of the victim.

True.

DC


>
From: snyeva01@uctvax.uct.ac.za
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: rape - lust apology
Date: 28 Jul 92 10:14:57 +0200
Organization: University of Cape Town

In article <1992Jul27.133304.202121@uctvax.uct.ac.za>, snyeva01@uctvax.uct.ac.za writes:
> apology to come :
> 
> I am very sorry, but it seems as if someone got hold of my password and had
> some fun. The posting labelled "rape - lust" was not written by me Evan Snyman
> and I totally dissociate myself from any such sentiment.
> 
> I hope this will never happen again.
> Evan Snyman.  

UNLUCKY Evan! ...
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf)
Subject: Re: To amy young: Thank your lucky star ...
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 92 19:18:17 GMT

In article <1992Jul25.131122.8928@uoft02.utoledo.edu> dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu writes:
>In article <1992Jul24.224422.1503@brtph560.bnr.ca>, kimmyd@bnr.ca (Kimmy Posey P920) writes:
>(deleted stuff)
>As I said, IMHO this person is beyond help.
>
>I really suggest correspondence with him be severly curtailed, as this sounds
>very much like a threat/cry for help. 

In all honesty, DC, I find most of your posts similarly repugnant.  In
fact, I wonder why you're in talk.rape (maybe a cry for help?).
However, I don't write a post suggesting that people avoid
corresponding with you.  I stick people like you in my killfile, as I'm
doing with you today.
From: holzman@fnalno.fnal.gov (Daniel B. Holzman)
Subject: Re: DC: Stick to law, sap ...!
Organization: FERMILAB
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 22:19:59 GMT
X-Posted-From: fnalno.fnal.gov
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <1992Jul26.180509.18008@brtph560.bnr.ca>, kimmyd@bnr.ca (Kimmy 
Posey P920) writes:
> ... and leave the psychoanalysis to the professionals.  

This has to set a new landspeed record for 180 degree spins.

> I have a whole team of
> folks with more degrees than a thermometer lookin' after my mental health and
> they don't seem to think I'm beyond help thank you!  

I thought that you thought that the psych professionals didn't know their ass
from a hole in the ground.  Make up your mind!

> And furthermore I don't threaten bub.  

And then he breaks his own record!

> I don't need to.  Nor do I cry for help.  If I need help I just
> pull out my wallet & buy some.  Sitting here I have an incredible urge to say
> a ton of really nasty things about you.  However I realize from some of the
> posts that I have read, man you already got plenty of people here that don't
> care for you.  You sure don't need an enemy as bad as me.  Therefore I think
> I'll just let you slide.  It's not worth workin' up a sweat over.

Gee, Kimmy, that sure sounds like a threat to me!

-- 
Daniel B. Holzman                    | Eight Words the Witch's Rede Fufill:
HOLZMAN@FNAL.BITNET                  | An It Harm None, Do What You Will
HOLZMAN@FNALC.FNAL.GOV.INTERNET      |
                                     | All Acts of Love and Pleasure are
Love doesn't subtract,               | Her Rituals
   it multiplies    - Heinlein       |
TEAM STAR Charter Member             | Speak the Word.
Disclaimer:  Fermilab's far too large to have an opinion, let alone mine.
From: dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: Kristen's Question (off the track a bit)
Date: 21 Jul 92 22:08:17 EST
Organization: University of Toledo, Computer Services

In article <BrrBxx.62x@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, seiffe@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Erica Seiffert) writes:
> 
> 
> 		Exactly what is the rape-cause myth? Is it anything like
> 	the PC rape fantasy to wit you referred earlier and then never 
> 	explained? If you are talking about the "defense" of : "She was
> 	asking for it because dressed provacatively, danced provacitively,
> 	went home with him, etc....," than I don't see how it correlates
> 	with my opinions. 

No, they are not. A politically correct rape fantasy was a phrase one feminst
levelled at some others. They were saying no true feminst would ever have a
back-alley gang-rape fantasy, as it would show she was not liberated. The
feminst being quoted slammed the others for creating the 'politically correct
rape fantasy'. (ala Gone With the Wind)

A rape cause myth is where the blame for rape is placed on something other than
the man wanted to rape her (for whatever reason--porn, rape scenes in movies,
tight clothes, cycles of the moon, karma, etc, etc...).

Someone on this thread was saying that there are too many men who might think
because a woman fantasizes about rape, she wants to be raped, ergo he will then
rape her. I do not believe that anyone, not already a rapist at heart, would
look at the stats on rape fantasies, and then assume, "Shit. She's fantasizing
about it. I might as well hide in these bushes and help her act it out."

To me, the only two reasons people rape are:

1. Desire for sex/love, and will acquire it over victim's hesitation to
complete the act.

2. Desire to hurt.

I understand what you are saying. Do you understand me, or should I clarify my
position more?

DC
From: dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: The reason for Rage
Date: 24 Jul 92 01:37:54 EST
Organization: University of Toledo, Computer Services

In article <1992Jul23.204600.25883@leland.Stanford.EDU>, farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf) writes:
> In article <1992Jul23.122410.8874@uoft02.utoledo.edu> dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu writes:
>>
>>PS. It should be anti-lesbigay, not anti-queer. Amke sure you keep your
>>speech politically correct.
> 
> "We're here, we're queer, get used to it."  That ring any bells for
> you?
> 

Sure. Does the response,

"I don't have to get used to it. You get used to that!"

ring any bells?

DC



Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf)
Subject: Re: Rape in any form ...
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 92 21:22:32 GMT

In article <BrwvGG.781@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> alyoung@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (amy young) writes:
>In article <1992Jul23.175429.11674@brtph560.bnr.ca> kimmyd@bnr.ca (Kimmy Posey P920) writes:
>>Rape is rape is rape.  It is an absolute.  
>
>You mean you do not see even shades of difference in intent, harm, and
>impact between violent stranger rape and date rape?  Rape is rape,
>indeed, meaning anything that can be classified as rape is a serious
>offense, however there are varying degrees. 

Personally, I think date rapes are even more harmful emotionally than
stranger rapes.  It's similar imo to the difference between being
beaten during a mugging and being beaten by your s.o.

When you date someone, you usually have some degree of trust in
her/him.  You usually like the person to some degree or you wouldn't
be out on a date with her/him.  To have that like and that trust
betrayed is worse than having some random stranger attack you.

Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble)
Subject: Re: More on fantasies and discussing one or two (was) Re: Rape in any form ...
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 03:41:06 GMT
Organization: Sporadic and incomplete

synth@deepthought.unm.edu (Synth F. Oberheim) writes:

>> When people say they fantasize about raping someone, are they referring
>> to a nonviolent scene such as Rolfe described earlier, or something
>> very different? 
>
> Based on personal experience and observation -- namely, growing up
> around and being socialized with other males -- I've seen that most men
> visualize a scenario of simply "getting sex" at the expense of whoever
> is on the receiving end -- a purely selfish goal. 

And just how many of these males you were socialized with have gone into
detail with you about their rape fantasies, Synth?  Do you have hard data
or are you generalizing based on an example or two and a lot of
assumptions? 

--
Lazlo (lazlo@triton.unm.edu)
From: dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: <None>
Date: 30 Jul 92 08:43:47 EST
Organization: University of Toledo, Computer Services

In article <SYNTH.92Jul29195010@deepthought.unm.edu>, synth@deepthought.unm.edu (Synth F. Oberheim) writes:

> 
> [ WARNING:  This post contains some descriptions that may be of a
> sensitive nature to some of the readership.  Please hit 'n' now. ]

> 
> Laz> How do you *know* that?
> 
> How do you think?  This is what they themselves described.  You think I
> would just conjure this out of nowhere?  From where do you derive such
> assumptions?  (And by the way, up above is your first example.  Here's
> another:  "God would I love to shove my DICK in her mouth --" -- this
> in regard to someone they barely know.  Now tell me:  do you honestly
> think there is nothing in the above that suggests dominance or force?)

Gee, my girlfriend LOVES it when I do that with her. No force, no dominance.
Just sex.

Am I raping her?

The problem her is that these men did not say, "And I want her to hate it!"
There is a cute blonde at the rec center I would love to do this to. In my
fantasies, she loves it to.

Not rape. You over-extrapolated.

> 
> Laz> Again, you're generalizing: first by assuming that the people you're
> Laz> talking about have the "date-rape mentality"
> 
> Based on other things they say that reveal a sexist, disrespectful 
> attitude toward women, they follow the same patterns as men who
> have date-raped.  It's not a pre-conceived assumption.

Well, most men who have date-raped have fantasized about consensual sex. Are
you saying the fantasy leads to the reality?

> 
>> If it's a visualization of sex either with protest from the woman or with
>> the woman being oblivious to any act taking place, it's a rape fantasy.

Olivious is not rape.

> 
> Laz> So which of these two possible situations are you using as the
> Laz> primary foundation for your opinion?  The times when you were
> Laz> presented with someone else's outright rape fantasy, or the times
> Laz> when you heard a fantasy but didn't hear anything about consent
> Laz> and therefore decided to *interpret* it as a rape fantasy?
> 
> Are you saying that if you drug someone's drink, render them unconscious,
> and have sex with them, thus sidestepping consent, it's not rape?  And
> similarly, if you have a desire to fuck someone, and you have an image
> of a limp, lifeless receptacle for sex -- not an image of a mutual
> sexual *encounter* -- then that's not also an image of rape?

You have sidestepped the question. You are equating the fact that consent was
not mentioned that the fantasy included none. Your own thoughts. Tell me, if
the male does not mention orgasam, do you also assume that none occurs in his
fantasy?

> 
> I agree that simply hearing of someone expressing a desire to have sex with
> someone, without explicitly describing whether or not that person consents,
> cannot be construed to be a rape fantasy.  If I thought this I'd be
> shouting "rape fantasy" at every man and woman on the face of the earth!

Oh. You answered my question. Almost. Why then, did you shout 'rape fantasy' to
us?


DC

Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: dan@cubmol.bio.columbia.edu (Daniel Zabetakis)
Subject: Re: Clarifications on Rape in any form ...
Organization: Columbia University, Dept. of Biological Sciences.
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1992 19:40:19 GMT

In article <1992Jul24.161815.26091@brtph560.bnr.ca> kimmyd@bnr.ca (Kimmy Posey P920) writes:
>
>As for innocent people being wrongly punished for rape (or murder or robbery
>or anything else) I must quote the immortal words of Mr. Spock:
>
>        "The needs of the many outweight those of the few or the one"
>

   JEEEEZZZZ, man!  You say you have concern for rape victims, yet you
so easily trash the main reason for stopping rape.
   If you oppose rape, you do so because of the concept of justice (whatever
that means to you). But justice must be applied equally, or there is no
justice for anyone. No system is totally just, and no system is totally
unjust. But we should try to move towards justice.
   Once you disparage justice for those accused of crimes, you also destroy
you reason for stopping the crime. It is impossible to work for justice
for crime victims, if you don't do as much as possible to ensure that only
the guilty are punished.
   I think most people would say "It is unjust for women to be raped". And
you say you aren't interested in justice. Why then stop rape? When you say
you just want to put _someone_ in jail for every rape that is commited, the
best you can hope for is an arnarchic free-for-all.

DanZ

-- 
This article is for entertainment purposes only. Any facts, opinions,
narratives or ideas contained herein are not necessarily true, and do
not necessarily represent the views of any particular person.  

Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf)
Subject: Re: To Prof. P. on degrees of rape ...
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 16:50:22 GMT

In article <1992Jul24.213214.669@brtph560.bnr.ca> kimmyd@bnr.ca (Kimmy Posey P920) writes:
>P.S.:  Are there any people out there who feel like I do about this or are my
>       views totally pyscho ?  If there are people that agree then by all
>       mean jump in any time.  I could use a breather!

I can't say that I feel exactly as you do.  However, I do find your
views a refreshing change from what many posters are saying in here.
It's good (imo) to see someone mad as hell about rape instead of upset
that some people think he's sick because he jerks off to rape
fantasies.
From: dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: Rape in any form ...
Date: 26 Jul 92 17:20:00 EST
Organization: University of Toledo, Computer Services

In article <SYNTH.92Jul26004455@deepthought.unm.edu>, synth@deepthought.unm.edu (Synth F. Oberheim) writes:
> 
> dc> Most of us have done a variant of this,
> dc> and we all understand it is a normal thing to fantasize about.
> 
> Is this like the third time I've had to correct you on this?  Re-read
> the articles that you yourself have posted -- the scientific community
> does not KNOW if it is "normal" or "okay" to fantasize about rape.
> Please stop contending that it is.

The studies indicate that 25% of all sexual fantasies fit into the 
'deviant' categories, with rape fatasies being the top one of the list.

It would be real hard to state that having rape fantasies is not normal.

To state that they are O.K., well, so far all of the material I have seen and
posted states provided that the fantasizer knows the difference between fantasy
and reality, the fantasies are O.K..

If you have conflicting information, please post it.


> 
> dc> We leave out of fantasies we would rather not associate with.
> dc> When it comes to a rape fantasy, the same applies.
> 
> We do this anyway -- the difference I was looking for is someone who
> has seen first-hand what rape actually does to others.

Synth, this has been answere time and again. Not just by me but by many others.
We can seperate fantasy from reality. Jesus Christ, if we stop fantasizing
about everything that can hurt another human being, we would stop fantasizing
about:

1. Love
2. Illicit affairs
3. Passion
4. Bondage
5. Sex
6. Homosexuality
7. Voyerism
8. Bestiality
9. Amusement park riding
10. Auto racing
11. War
12. Work

Should I go on?  Virtually all romantic affairs leave someone broken hearted.
Drives some people over the edge.

We fantasize about the things we wish to experience in an eristatz fashion.

War kills people, yet you would never say you didn't understand how someone
could fantasize abot being a war hero.

Being a war hero DEMANDS killing other human beings.

DC




> 
> 
> ===============================================================================
>     :: :: :: :: ::     Synth F.    synth@deepthought.unm.edu    U S E N E T   
>  :: :: :: :: :: :: ::  Oberheim    synth@yenta.alb.nm.us             in color!
> ===============================================================================
> FROM 1992 GM CAR OWNER'S MANUAL: "If you get gasoline on you and then something
>                                   ignites it, you could be badly burned."
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: boggs@a.cs.okstate.edu (BOGGS RICHARD GRAN)
Subject: Re: To Prof. P. on degrees of rape ...
Organization: Oklahoma State University, Computer Science, Stillwater
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 92 17:44:00 GMT

In article the previous article I write:
>Hey now!  Careful of your choice for states to slame there, bub.

Cripes!  Line noise is terrible,isn't it (grin)? ^^^^--- That's "slam".

-- 
Grant Boggs
boggs@a.cs.okstate.edu
Oklahoma State University
Stillwater, Oklahoma
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: kaarts@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Kenneth John Aarts)
Subject: Re: More on fantasies and discussing one or two
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 04:49:36 GMT


Nancy Friday, in her book 'Men in Love, male sexual fantsies', noted that male
fantasies of commiting rape almost always maintained some element of
consent.  Now while it is possible for some people to warp these ideas into a
motivation for behaviour, I don't think it is sufficient to automatically
label everyone engaging in these fantasies as sick.

Ken
From: kimmyd@bnr.ca (Kimmy Posey P920)
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Daniel: Spelling, targets, etc.
Date: 31 Jul 92 14:58:27 GMT
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, BNR-RTP

Yes Danny, I'm not the world's greatest speller, but in this instance the
spelling was not in error.  And yes Mr. Insane temporarily remains in nominal
control of Iraq.  Although instead of controlling the largest military
machine in the Persian Gulf, he now controls the worlds largest scrap heap.

Yes blindly attacking a problem sometimes results in hitting the wrong target.
In the case of rape however, the target which I am attacking blindly or other-
wise is the rapist.  IMO this is the correct target.

I am glad your friend is so well adjusted.  I don't have any sources to quote
at hand but my guess is that she is an exception to the rule.  This guess is
based on personal experience and stuff I have read in books written for people
recovering from sexual abuse.  Check it out in your local library or browse
through the recovery section at B. Daltons.

KimmyD
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: synth@deepthought.unm.edu (Synth F. Oberheim)
Subject: Re: More on fantasies and discussing one or two (was) Re: Rape in any form ...
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 02:54:18 GMT
Organization: SynthMedia Productions Ltd.: The Danes Call It Quality
	<1992Jul27.045208.219642@cs.cmu.edu>
	<SYNTH.92Jul27130810@deepthought.unm.edu> <namm_5q@lynx.unm.edu>


lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble) writes:

Laz> synth@deepthought.unm.edu (Synth F. Oberheim) writes:
> Based on personal experience and observation -- namely, growing up
> around and being socialized with other males -- I've seen that most men
> visualize a scenario of simply "getting sex" at the expense of whoever
> is on the receiving end -- a purely selfish goal. 

Laz> And just how many of these males you were socialized with have
Laz> gone into detail with you about their rape fantasies, Synth?

Uh, all of them.  They offered the details; I didn't have to ask.  It
was mostly gleaned in casual male-bonding-type situations.

Laz> Do you have hard data or are you generalizing based on an example or
Laz>             ^^^^^^^^^                   two and a lot of assumptions?

If you wanted me to keep a tape recorder and notepad handy for ten-odd
years, then I'm afraid I have to disappoint you here.  An "example or two"?
You must be joking.  After going through the motions of high school and
college, I listened to a lot more than just one or two.

And please note the disclaimer:  personal experience and observation.
I have my sample, and form my own opinions based on them.  Personally I
feel I've seen enough to notice a trend.  But I certainly do not expect
you or anyone else to subscribe to these opinions unless you too have
made similar observations, repeatedly, throughout the years.


===============================================================================
    :: :: :: :: ::     Synth F.    synth@deepthought.unm.edu    U S E N E T   
 :: :: :: :: :: :: ::  Oberheim    synth@yenta.alb.nm.us             in color!
===============================================================================
"Bula vinaka, beachside!" 
Newsgroups: talk.rape
From: synth@deepthought.unm.edu (Synth F. Oberheim)
Subject: Re: <None>
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 21:08:08 GMT
Organization: SynthMedia Productions Ltd.: The Danes Call It Quality
	<SYNTH.92Jul29195010@deepthought.unm.edu>
	<1992Jul30.084348.9059@uoft02.utoledo.edu>


dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu writes:

dc> synth@deepthought.unm.edu (Synth F. Oberheim) writes:

>> If it's a visualization of sex either with protest from the woman or with
>> the woman being oblivious to any act taking place, it's a rape fantasy.

dc> Olivious is not rape.

Having sex with someone who is drugged up, unconscious or incapacitated
is not rape ?


===============================================================================
    :: :: :: :: ::     Synth F.    synth@deepthought.unm.edu    U S E N E T   
 :: :: :: :: :: :: ::  Oberheim    synth@yenta.alb.nm.us             in color!
===============================================================================
"The press deals in facts, which aren't always the same as the truth."
				                    -- Ted Koppel
Newsgroups: talk.rape