HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dovey@renoir.llnl.gov (Donald Dovey)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Abbey bashing.  Was: Trip rpt: SE Utah 4wd vacation, part 3/4
Keywords: population growth
Date: 20 Nov 92 16:21:57 GMT
Reply-To: dovey@renoir.llnl.gov (Donald Dovey)
Followup-To: talk.environment
Distribution: na
Organization: Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory

In article <1992Nov17.232921.16325@nsisrv.gsfc.nasa.gov>,
 karl@thuja.gsfc.nasa.gov (Karl A. Anderson) writes:
> 
>Does anyone have any authoritative statistics on the contribution immigration,
>both legal and illegal, makes to the rate of population growth in the U.S.?

The population of the U.S. on Jan 1, 1990 was estimated at 249.6 million, a
10.2 percent increase over the April 1, 1980 census count of 226.5 million.
The growth of 23.1 million was attributed to a natural increase of 16.5
million (births - deaths) and a net immigration of 6.6 million.  The South
and West accounted for 87 percent of the nation's growth from 1980 to 1990.

             Year    U.S. population
            -------------------------
             1880     50 million
             1915     100 million
             1949     150 million
             1967     200 million
             1990     250 million

Looks like continuous growth to me.

Source: The World Almanac 1991

Some comments --

  This took me 3 minutes to look up in the library last night.  Come on,
  folks.

  If you look at the projected growth of almost any western U.S. city,
  it is expected to gain large amounts of population in the next 20 years.

  On SGI workstations, there is a demo program with a time slider which
  can be moved along U.S. history.  The program displays a map of the U.S.
  with the states elevated proportional to their population during the
  current year.  Play with the program a little, and one of the most salient
  trends is California shooting upward in the last 10-20 years.

  I've directed followups to talk.environment.

--
Don Dovey                                                   dovey@llnl.gov
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna)
Subject: Re: Multiplying in the Backcountry (kids/population)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 22:01:53 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department

In article <10800@vice.ICO.TEK.COM> hall@vice.ICO.TEK.COM (Hal F Lillywhite) writes:
>In article <1992Nov19.165450.4985@brtph560.bnr.ca> jbl@mesaadm.cre.nt.com (JB) writes:
>
>>                             Do you agree that all countries,
>>whether developed or not, contribute to the usage and thus the
>>destruction of the eco-system?  If so, then this should be handled on a
>>global level, the US included.
>
>Well, yes.  Unfortunately we have no general agreement as to what
>form our global actions should take.

I think we should give some nuclear weapons to each of the middle eastern
countries, sit back, and let nature take its course.

Just kidding.  But this is a likely scenario, given the situation, with
the Arabs wanting the nukes, the Soviets needing the cash, and the US
maintaining instability in the region.  ...Another giant spike in the
"monotonic" function.
-- 

-Wayne Trzyna
 trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU
From: elwood@sag4.ssl.berkeley.edu (Elisha Polomski)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Grand Canyon
Date: 20 Nov 1992 17:36:54 GMT
Organization: Space Science Labs
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: sag4.ssl.berkeley.edu
Keywords: Graand Canyon, accomodations


I may be going to visit the Canyon in January--
anyone have any reccomendations for accomodations???
I think it'll be too cold for camping(at least for me ;) )



I would be visiting the South Rim. Need something cheap.
Any Bed and Breakfast places, youth hostels or other stuff
nearby???


Also, I heard it takes 2 days to hike down and back up 
floor via Bright Angel trail. Is this true?? Or only
true for domesticated hikers??? I 've hiked up and
down 6000ft peaks in one day with time and energy to spare.

-thanks!!

Elisha(elwood@cea.berkeley.edu)






Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: mpb@troy.cc.bellcore.com (bunz,marcus p)
Subject: Re: Abbey bashing.  Was: Trip rpt: SE Utah 4wd vacation, part 3/4
Organization: Bellcore, Livingston, NJ
Distribution: na
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 92 14:02:35 GMT

In article <141643@lll-winken.LLNL.GOV>, dovey@renoir.llnl.gov (Donald Dovey) writes:
> In article <Nov12.210156.84624@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU>,
>  trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna) writes:
> >
> > > How do I help protect a wilderness without simultaneously
> > > reducing my access to it?
> > 
> > Easy:  have fewer children.
> 
> Try one of these instead:
> 
>     "Have fewer children than I did."
>     "Have few or no children, like I did."
>     "Encourage others to have fewer children than their parents,
>      like I am doing with this post."
>     "Support legislation and legislators that deal with
>      population-related concerns."
>     "Educate."
> 
> Not a flame, but your answer seems too pat.  And by shifting the
> responsibility to someone else, you've missed the point.
> 
> As for me, since I am planning to retire to the woods next year,
> I won't be able to afford children.  :-) :-).
> 
> --
> Don Dovey                                         dovey@llnl.gov

While I'll agree that the days of having 10 & 12 children are long gone,
due to the fact that most of them will survive to adulthood and reproduce
(no true that very long ago, in the whole scheme of things). I don't
think that limiting people to one or even two children would be good
in the US.  If I'm not mistaken, the population of the US has been
flat or declining slightly, if you exclude emigrants.  I agree with
your proposal to educate people, and efforts should be made to provide
effective birth control especially in areas that are not capable of
supporting the population load, either directly through farming/fishing,
or indirectly through distribution channels.  It will also be a tough
job conviencing people that they don't need lots of children where
the life style is subsistance farming, how do you convience them that
they will be cared for if they could live longer than they could take
care of themselves on their own.  Here, we have SS to take care of
the aged (HA HA), but as the number of retirees increases relative to
the number of workers the system has to break down at some point.  However,
you have managed to find a way to have your cake (not invest in the
future of the contry either financially, or through giving your time in raising
children), and eat it to (everyone elses children will be working to
provide for you, assuming SS entitlements don't completely go away).

Marc
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: bonn@networx.com (David Bonn)
Subject: Re: FIRST-AIDS KITS
Organization: NetWorx
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 18:07:26 GMT

greg@antizen.EBay.Sun.COM wrote:
: >Realistically, most major-league medical emergencies cannot be effectively
: >treated in a wilderness situations.  The best you can realistically hope for
: >is to make sure no additional damage is done while waiting for rescue.
: >Something to think about when you're heading to some secret place.
: 
: Again, this depends on your level of training and commitment....
: 

I suppose it depends on your idea of "major-league medical emergency" and
"effective treatment."

Serious blood loss can't be effectively treated outside of the hospital (I have
never seen anyone carrying whole blood or even plasma, much less a MAST suit).
This means that quite plausible injuries like femur fractures, pelvic
fractures, ectopic pregnancies, serious burns, and intra-abdominal bleeding
could well be fatal, no matter how skilled and dedicated the people treating
the patient happen to be.

Head and spinal injuries are also pretty hopeless.  As are most cases of
cardiac arrest (two important exceptions:  cold-water immersion (drowning)
and being struck by lightning).

This doesn't mean that all of these problems are effectively fatal (okay,
cardiac arrest due to trauma is pretty darned fatal in the wilderness).  What
it does mean is that you need to get your patient to a hospital sooner than
immediately if your patient (friend, SO, co-worker) is going to live.  Beyond
that, you need to prevent any further damage (this is what 'first aid' is all
about) and cross your fingers.

There is a lot of knowledge and technology available in a hospital emergency
room.  You can't possibly carry even a tiny portion of it in your brain or on
your back.

 David Bonn
 bonn@networx.com

From: dlow@pollux.svale.hp.com (Danny Low)
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 01:14:11 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: gortex vs/ kevlar
Organization: HP LOVECRAFT DIVISION
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry

>(David Iverson) 
>I'm considering purchasing a new anorak and I was wondering what the
>benifits and draw backs are between gortex and kevlar.

From my personal experience, I would have to say that kevlar is not
breathable like goretex but it keeps you breathing. :-)

			   Danny Low
    "Question Authority and the Authorities will question You"
	   Valley of Hearts Delight, Silicon Valley
	     HP CPCD   dlow@pollux.svale.hp.com
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: ari@world.std.com (Ari I Halberstadt)
Subject: Hunter shoots partner
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 04:37:34 GMT

This from the November 17th, 1992 Boston Globe, p84:

***
Vermont hunter killed by partner

Hinesburg, Vt.- A Milton man, who police said was not wearing illuminated
clothing, was killed by his hunting partner Sunday. Vermont State Police
identified the victim as Robert J. Gable, 25. The name of the hunting partner
was not released. Detective Sgt. Timothy Bombardier said Gable was shot
through the upper hip at about 3 p.m. He was dead when police arrive at the
wooded area on Silver Street. The hunting companion told police he thought
Gable was a deer. (AP)
***

Excuse me, he thought his partner was a DEER? Since when do humans look like
deers? Obviously, he had to take aim with his gun or he wouldn't have hit the
victim, which means he at least took a good look in the general direction of
his partner.

This teaches me one thing. Wear illuminated clothing if you think there are
hunters around. This also leads me to suspect that hunters are more dangerous
than deer and probably more dangerous than bears. Most hunters may be smarter
than deers, but at least when a deer makes a mistake it doesn't usually kill
you.

Disclaimer: reprinted without permission. Whatcha gonna do, sue me?
-- 
Ari Halberstadt  ari@world.std.com  #include <disclaimer.h>  #include <quote.h>
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya)
Subject: Re: other bashing.
Organization: NAS, NASA Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 18:26:36 GMT
Distribution: na

In article <1992Nov15.201031.9408@ucsu.Colorado.EDU>
marlatt@spot.Colorado.EDU (Stuart W. Marlatt) writes:
P.S. Sending more SB's to Ilana today.
>Add these to your list

Yeah, most of these are already on.

>        Aldo Leopold - you've already got him on a panel
>        John Long (Largo). Sometimes good, sometimes, well...

Rod Nash was a Leopold fan.  I have more of a Carson bend (and one of the
	rare women).
The funny thing about Long was his trip to the North Pole (As I apporoached
latitude zero.....).

>        Mark Twain (Clemens).
>        Norbert Casteret.

We don't have NC, and I don't have time to look up his writings.
But if you could elaborate.

--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eugene@orville.nas.nasa.gov
  Associate Editor, Software and Publication Reviews
  Scientific Programming
  {uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
Seeking Books to buy:	Bongard, Pattern Recognition
			3 down 1 to go.
From: maarrrk@seidel.ucsb.edu (Mark Erickson)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: USFS Backcountry Fees
Date: 20 Nov 92 17:19:31 GMT
Distribution: na

AS.MSW@forsythe.stanford.edu (Marc Whitney) writes:

>     [cut, snip]                            The implication was that
>for every $1 collected from backpackers there would be $1 less in
>timber sales.  If this is true I would be inclined to change my
>view.

	My immediate reaction to this kind of proposal is quite 
	negative;  using a "timber sales vs. backpacker fees"
	argument seems like _extortion_ to me.  We shouldn't have
	to pay extra to protect _our_ land.

	--maarrrk	
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: wwarf@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Wayne J. Warf)
Subject: Re: BC in Movies
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 09:31:16 GMT

In article <1992Nov3.160123.29724@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu> frankenp@argon.gas.uug.arizona.edu (Paul Frankenstein  ) writes:
>In article <1992Nov3.033425.2748@nas.nasa.gov> eugene@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov (Eugene N. Miya) writes:
>* Ah another previous topic.
>* 
>* One can chose numerous G and PG-13 rated films.  The D film has been covered.
>* I chose Michael Cimino's The Deer Hunter as another "flawed masterpiece."*
>* 
>* Spoilers:
>* 
>* The closest bit of the reality and one basis of the film was the
>* summary execution of a suspected Vietcong sympathizer during the Tet
>* Offense where the man's brains were blown away (most people remember this
>* incident as a still, but Cimino was clearly a person who also saw the
>* film footage [a still appears as wall paper in Woody Allen's
>
>No film footage of this event exists. The photograph was shot by an AP 
>photographer (who went on to win the Pulitzer Prize) who, to quote him
>roughly, said "I just turned, saw it, and took the picture." Also, the man
>who was executed was Vietcong and had been directly responcible for the deaths
>of several of the executor's family members.

Sorry, I have to disagree, film footage of the event was include
in an A&E documentary on Vietnam. Lots of blood pumping into the
street. The AP photographer may have shot a still but a film crew was 
there also.

-- 
 +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
 | Wayne J. Warf -- WWARF@ucs.indiana.edu -- I speak for myself only  |
 | Midterm Countdown-Bill and the Congress have to '94 to screw it up |
 +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: ajs@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Alan Silverstein)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 22:26:31 GMT
Subject: Re: FIRST-AIDS KITS
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry

Here's another urge to take the Red Cross CPR and first aid course.  I
did it 3.5 years ago and just renewed it.  Both times most attendees
were there because they "had to be" for a job or occupation.  Which is a
real shame because the course is *great*.  Not only do you learn
specific skills; you also learn a feeling of preparedness that (I hope)
will keep you calm and effective in an emergency.
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: stgprao@st.unocal.COM (Richard Ottolini)
Subject: Re: hiking clubs??
Keywords: hiking clubs bay area
Organization: Unocal Corporation
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 17:48:12 GMT

In article <1992Nov21.011157.22085@leland.Stanford.EDU> lyford@amy3.stanford.edu (Julian Karl Wright) writes:
>I am looking for recommendations of a hiking club in the bay area to join.  
>I'm a Stanford student and there doesn't seem to be any clubs on campus.
>I'd like to go for a weekend trip ,say ,once a month ,with no serious  
>climbing, and with some people in my age group (20's).
>Any ideas??

The Sierra Club has many chapters, specialized as to activity (hiking, climbing)
and social interest (singles).

Hiking clubs come and go at Stanford.  I ran trips for two in the 1980s,
but they are defunct now.  Not enough interest in leading trips.  Next year the
ASSU (student government) has funded an outdoors program for incoming
students.  That may be the nucleus of new hiking clubs at Stanford.
Xref: sparky rec.backcountry:9120 sci.environment:12923 talk.environment:4714 alt.wolves:244
From: floyd@hayes.ims.alaska.edu (Floyd Davidson)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry,sci.environment,talk.environment,alt.wolves
Subject: Re: Alaska to shoot hundreds of wolves from airplanes
Date: 21 Nov 92 08:21:17 GMT
Article-I.D.: raven.1992Nov21.082117.28640
Organization: University of Alaska Computer Network

In article <1992Nov20.124348.1@vmsb.is.csupomona.edu> cvakgaaq@vmsb.is.csupomona.edu writes:
>	This will radically stress the current culture of the Wolves.
>Will the sudden decrease in competition from other packs and the corresponding
>increase in prey give rise to new organizations among the wolves? Will their
>range increase or their pack's size? Or the opposite? It is sure to lead to 

My understanding is that heavy hunting pressure will cause the
pack size to become smaller, thus increasing the rate of
reproduction because only the alpha animals in each pack normally
mate.  The net effect over a long period of time is that hunting
may be a very poor way to reduce wolf numbers.

Loss of prey population may cause low wolf numbers, but loss of
habitat is what reduces wolve numbers to extinction.

>a famine and mass die-off amongst the prey after a brief expansion. Look 

That could very well happen.  The over grazing of the food supply
in the early part of this century by reindeer (a reindeer and a
caribou are essentially the same animal) herds was initially
blamed on wolf predation.  The concept of wolf management to bring
back the reindeer and caribou herds then didn't work very well...

>for a lot more highway deaths and train derailments, too.

Car moose collisions usually result the the death of both the car
and the moose, though the occupants of the car usually, but not
always, live.  There were something like 30 caribou killed on the
Parks Highway near Cantwell, Alaska in the past month.  I saw a
moose killed on the Richardson Highway south of Fairbanks just 2-3
days ago.

But trains don't get derailed...  and the Alaska Railroad kills a
few hundred moose every year.  The train wins every time and isn't
even scratched.

>	The funny thing about this is that in the next few centuries the
>populations in the North will decrease because the treeline is rapidly moving
>south in response to Global cooling caused by the Milankovitch cycle. The
>Caribou will hang around, but the Moose and the Deer will have to head south,
>too. You think they could just plant more food species or clear more forests if
>they want more herbivores.

Ha ha, good joke.  The treeline is moving north, I don't know about 
Milankovitch, but caribou and moose (there aren't any deer here)
seem to hand around all winter now at -65F, so they aren't likely
to move if it ever does get cold.

>	I think someone just wants to hunt wolves..

You got that right.  It has nothing to do with moose and caribou
and herds for tourists.  Money, thats all, just money.  Hunting is
big money.

Floyd
-- 
floyd@ims.alaska.edu    A computer guest of the Institute of Marine Science
Salcha, Alaska          at the University of Alaska at Fairbanks
Newsgroups: rec.radio.swap
From: gws@n8emr.cmhnet.org (Gary Sanders)
Subject: hf/10m/3b2 sale
Organization: HAM BBS, 614-895-2553 (1200/2400/v.32/pep)
Distribution: na
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 92 17:54:16 GMT

The following items are forsale.  Will consider trades and 
offers on all items. Items are in good working condition 
unless otherwise noted. Prices do not include shipping..


Kenwood TS940s/AT, manuals, box 
with IF10 computer interface unit 			$1300

10 meter AMP (50watts)					$  70

10 meter preamp						$  30

Yeasu Oscar Console (power supply, tone pad)		$  40

3b2 ports card, 4 serial and parallel			$  50/each
-- 
Gary W. Sanders gws@n8emr.cmhnet.org, 72277,1325
N8EMR @ N8JYV (ip addr) 44.70.0.1 [Ohio AMPR address coordinator]
HAM BBS 614-895-2553 (1200/2400/V.32/PEP) Voice: 614-895-2552 (eves/weekends)
From: drw@esl.com (Dave Waters)
Newsgroups: rec.radio.swap
Subject: Re: Jun's electronics
Date: 17 Nov 92 22:18:29 GMT
Followup-To: rec.radio.swap
Organization: ESL Inc.

In article <BxsHv2.7ps@acsu.buffalo.edu>, oopdavid@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu
(D.RODMAN) wrote:
> 
> In article <aksurf-121192164944@131.215.9.51>, aksurf@caltech.edu (Axel) writes...
> > 
> >I am posting this as a warning to other people regarding the service at a
> >HAM radio store in Los Angeles. This regards Jun's electronics on Sepulveda
> >in Culver City. 
> > 
>>> stuff deleted about bad experience with a returned item >>>
> 
> 
> I would be tempted to deliver a boat anchor to them (through the front
> window) in the off hours, but it is Sunday and I went to church today.
> 


One of the best things you can do is publicize it as you have done on the
net. One bad comment does more bad things to business than dozens of
attaboys...
You confirmed what I suspected about them, thanks for posting your
experience Axel... They'll never get me as a customer. There's plenty of
good mail order outfits out there.

                 +-------------------------+
|  | |  |  |     | Dave Waters    WA6AWZ   |
+--+-+--+--+     | drw@esl.com             |
|  |||  |  |     | Compuserve: 73277,311   |
    |            +-------------------------+
    |
Newsgroups: rec.radio.swap
From: kingpin@mole.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Joe Smooth)
Subject: EPROMs for sale! (cheap prices, too)
Organization: None
Distribution: rec
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 23:29:30 GMT

I have the following used EPROMs for sale:

	31 Amdek 27C512 200nS - $2 / each

	90 Intel 27512 250nS - $1.50 / each

I will sell in quantities more than 10, so if you are interested,
let me know, and maybe we can work something out.. Thanks!
Xref: sparky rec.radio.swap:3050 rec.radio.amateur.misc:18869
From: epacyna@auratek.UUCP (Edward Pacyna)
Newsgroups: rec.radio.swap,rec.radio.amateur.misc
Subject: Wanted - General Coverage Receiver
Date: 16 Nov 92 17:06:47 GMT
Followup-To: poster
Organization: Aurora Technologies, Inc.; Cambridge, Mass.


Looking for a .5 - 30MHz solid state general coverage receiver. Will consider
something that is not currently working (or a transceiver with a general
coverage receiver). Replys to:

Ed Pacyna    Email:   ed@auratek.com      or      uunet!auratek.com!ed

W1AAZ        Tel:     (617) 290-4800 days         (617) 631-8383 evenings  
  

From: Chuck.Penson@f100.n282.z1.tdkt.kksys.com (Chuck Penson)
Sender: FredGate@tdkt.kksys.com
Newsgroups: rec.radio.swap
Subject: Re: Looking for vfo to hea
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 01:02:02 -0600

Mark - the HW-16s matching VFO WAS THE HG-10 - cheap and plentiful at 
your average hamfest - good luck!

 * Origin: HAM>link< RBBS 612/HAM-0000 Saint Paul, MN (K0TG) (1:282/100)
From: glenn@hpsanaeo.nsr.hp.com (Glenn Jensen)
Newsgroups: rec.radio.swap
Subject: Kenwood TS-430
Date: 24 Nov 1992 00:59:00 GMT
Organization: Hewlett Packard, San Diego
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: hpsanaeo.nsr.hp.com

I have a Kenwood TS-430 that I would be interested in
selling.

This is a solid state system, offering coverage on
the WARC bands, as well as shortwave reception.

Further, the rig includes the optional FM transmit/receive
module for 10FM.

Anyone interested may email me questions and/or respective
offers.

73's





Glenn
WA6BJQ

-- 
Glenn V. Jensen

(1|619) 541-7320

internet: glenn@hpsanaeo.nsr.hp.com
From: David.Berg@f100.n282.z1.tdkt.kksys.com (David Berg)
Sender: FredGate@tdkt.kksys.com
Newsgroups: rec.radio.swap
Subject: Collins 388/urr receiver
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 08:44:19 -0600

I HAVE A COLLINS 388/URR RECEIVER FOR SALE. THIS IS AN OLDER 
TUBE TYPE RECEIVER THAT IS IN VERY GOOD WORKING CONDITION . THE
RADIO HAS PROVIDE MANY HOURS OF LISTENING PLEASURE, THIS IS THE
IDEAL RADIO FOR THE COLLINS COLLECTOR. THIS RADIO DOES HAVE
A CRACKED FRONT KNOB AND THE COLLINS LOGO IS MISSING IN THE FRONT
I AM ASKING 400.00 CASH AND THE PRICE OF POSTAGE . PLEASE GIVE THIS
RADIO A GOOD QTH, PLEASE CALL ME AT 612-653-8045 AND ASK FOR DAVE
N0PCB. 73'S

 * Origin: HAM>link< RBBS 612/HAM-0000 Saint Paul, MN (K0TG) (1:282/100)