HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history
Subject: Re: Sechrest renamed visvis?
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 16:25:47 GMT

In article <1992Sep5.200016.7148@zip.eecs.umich.edu> sechrest@z.eecs.umich.edu (Stuart Sechrest) writes:

>Thanks to Lance Visser for his continued vigilance against any denigration
>of the Turks.

But it does not show up in a census.

Source: Walker, Christopher: "Armenia: The Survival of a Nation."
        New York (St. Martin's Press), 1980.

This generally pro-Armenian work contains the following information
of direct relevance to the Nazi Holocaust: 

a) Dro (the butcher), the former Dictator of the Armenian Dictatorship and
the architect of the Genocide of 2.5 million Turks and Kurds, the most 
respected of Nazi Armenian leaders, established an Armenian Provisional 
Republic in Berlin during World War II; 

b) this 'provisional government' fully endorsed and espoused the social 
theories of the Nazis, declared themselves and all Armenians to be members 
of the Aryan 'Super-Race;' 

c) they published an Anti-Semitic, racist journal, thereby aligning themselves 
with the Nazis and their efforts to exterminate the Jews; and, 

d) they mobilized an Armenian Army of up to 20,000 members which fought side 
by side with the Wehrmacht.

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
From: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israel and Kuwait in the Spotlight
Date: 12 Sep 1992 18:05:55 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, eggertj@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41) says:

>
>>   Arab hegemony in Isarel == Jews in the sea. (or at least those who came
>>   afetr 1917 - according to the pitiful Arafat).
>>
>>   Jews prefer their lives over theoretical equality!
>>
>>   This is not the Arab's right to kill the Jew, as it is not the Jew's 
>>   to kill the Arab.
>
>Because of the canard that Arabs will necessarily kill Jews if given
>equal rights.

In Israel, Arabs do have equal rights.
-- 
bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Subject: Re: Prisoners or Hostages?
Reply-To: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Organization: North Carolina State University
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 15:23:57 GMT

In article <1992Sep14.182251.132@bony1.bony.com>, jake@bony1.bony.com
(Jake Livni) writes:
> [...] 
> In some places, writing silly stories about the Prophet Mohammed is 
> a crime punishable by death.  In other places, it is entirely legal 
> to write such stories.   In Iran, it is even illegal to write such
> things in OTHER places!  
> 
> [...]
> 
> -- 
> Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com               Pat Paulsen for President
> American-Occupied New York                    This year he has a real chance!
> My opinions only - employer has no opinions.

Presumably you are referring to Salman Rushdie. I am sure that you are
aware that the declaration against him was made by a religious figure
acting in a religious capacity. If the Iranian government wanted Rushdie
dead he might very well be dead by now. Indeed Rafsanjani's government
has declared that it has no desire to kill Rushdie. 

Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Rabin and Labor:Is Past Prologue?
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 22:07:31 GMT

In article <1992Sep8.174932.24988@das.harvard.edu> adam@sparkle.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
>In article <1992Sep8.065407.16147@cs.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:

>>Perhaps it would be useful if you
>>could make a list of those concessions that you think it would be
>>reasonable for the Palestinians to make?

>1.  Amend the Covenant.  Article 19, and others.
>
>2.  Clearly, plainly, and without retractions recognize Israel's right
>to exist.[...]
>
>3.  Renounce the use of terror against any civilian, anywhere in the world.
>[...]
>4.  Stop the intifadah, and replace it with *non-violent* rallies.
>Taking a lesson from Mahatma Ghandi would do much to allay the fears
>of Israelis.

This is precisely the meaning of "Peace for Peace".
In any other conflict anywhere else, it would be 
considered perfectly reasonable.  

It is worthy of note that Hanan Ashrawi, the current 
Miss Liberty of the Press, rejects these and has called
for continued and increased violent acts within Israel.


-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com               Pat Paulsen for President
American-Occupied New York                    This year he has a real chance!
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Subject: Re: Brendan is a racist anti-semitic bigot
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
Organization: Australian National University
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 06:49:19 GMT


In article 28949@ennews.eas.asu.edu, makowsky@enuxha.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky) writes:
>	I believe Brendan's own words here condemn him.  I have deleted
>most of his article, even though I had planned to reply to it
>(possibly even agreeing with him on the relevence of 242).  However,
>he has repeated here an anti-semitic theme of dual loyalty amongst
>Jews living in the United States in his own words (no source, not that
>this matters except here he cannot even attempt to blame someone else).
>I am including only the relevant paragraph.
>
>	I am doing this because I believes it throws more fuel on the fire
>of Brendan's bigotry with respect to another thread where I have
>pointed this out.
>
>In article <1992Sep8.015156.11937@cs.anu.edu.au> bdm@cs.anu.edu.au writes:
>
># The word "the" was left out on purpose; no doubt about it.  However,
># I don't believe the same can be said about Jerusalem.  Just because it 
># isn't mentioned by name doesn't mean it was left out.  As to what Goldberg 
># has retrospectively claimed [I am still waiting for someone to provide an 
># actual quotation or reference]: Goldberg did not constitute the Security 
># Council in 1967.  Moreover, his behaviour at the time (more like he 
># represented Israel than like he represented the US) disqualifies him from 
># speaking on behalf of any SC members except himself.  It is well known that 
># almost all the SC members wanted a total withdrawal to pre-1967 borders. 

You have it all wrong.  I criticised Goldberg because I have a pathological
hatred of the letter "G".  Nobody with a "G" at both ends can be any good.

By the way, I like you.
  
>David Makowsky

Brendan.
From: rothberg@bimacs.BITNET (Danny Rothenberg)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Human Rights in Occupied Territorie
Date: 14 Sep 92 13:20:02 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL

Perhaps Leah Tsemel should give up her Israeli citizenship, which
grants her all these (too many) privileges and take out Palestinian
refugee papers.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Danny Rothenberg            |    ^     Ellul is here, so:  (I also forgive
Bitnet:                     | \-/-\-/   "Repent now!        everybody)
rothberg@bimacs             |  X   X     Avoid the Yom Kippur rush!"
Internet:                   | /-\-/-\      -Nero (aka Harry Blacker)
rothberg@imacs.cs.biu.ac.il |    V    Ketivah VeChatimah Tovah-Shanah Tovah
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: arf@ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Re: are jews racists?
Organization: ddsw1.MCS.COM Contributor, Chicago, IL
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 22:43:06 GMT

In article <1992Sep10.185632.26661@discus.technion.ac.il> davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami) writes:
>In article <1992Sep10.093741.29858@cc.uow.edu.au> u9066624@cc.uow.edu.au (Tippu Hassan) writes:
>>
>>hi all
>>
>>im a new commer to the group. i dont know if this topic has been discussed
>>earlier or not but i would like to know if the israelis feel guilty at all
>>for what they are doing to the  palistinians.
>
>You seem to totally ignore the deeds/crimes of the Arabs. Teerorism
>has/is elevated into new heights in the hand of the PLO gang.
>Palestinians are trying for 50 years to throw the Jews into the sea
>in one way or another. [ I think that the current drive to Plaestinian
>state is just the newest tactic to accomplish that goal].

Well, now that we have heard from most of the net.Chutzpanazis, it's time
for al little balance.

The original poster has properly been put in his place and no doubt will
never be heard from again in spite of the fact that he was simply posing
an honest question the honest answer to which is most embarassing to 
the Chutzpanazis.

I won't go into the usual defense and attack mode but suffice it to say
that most honest people equate Israel with South Africa as being one of
the most racist countries in the world.

Isreal doesn't need gas chambers, the world community just seems to find
administrative detention of tens of thousands of innocent civilians 
palatable enough that tthey have chosen jailing the hated Arabs to 
ethnic clensing.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: rayes@Snake.mcs.kent.edu (Sandra Rayes)
Subject: Re: How Much Did The U.S. Get?
Organization: Kent State University
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 08:51:10 GMT

In article <3755@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh) writes:
>I think he only has two wives - and one mistress.  Maybe we can
>examine the lifestyle of the Emir of Kuwait ... was is the count
>now?
>
Ha!  I heard, from a Kuwaiti woman mind you, that the young ladies
of Kuwait live in fear that the Emir might spot them sometime and
demand to marry them...then divorce them the following week.  It
seems mut'ah is a fashion with our Emir...

>
>Anisa
>
Sandra.


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: Fair Swap
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 19:24:46 GMT

gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman) writes:

[....]

##You're talking about the ME ? right ?
#
#Yep, the locale of Armagedden.

BTW, "Armagedden" is the English version for "Har Megido" (the mountain
of Megido, in Hebrew), which is supposed to be where the last battle 
between good and evil will be fought.

-Danny Keren.


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Prisoners or Hostages?
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 92 18:22:51 GMT

In article <22373@venera.isi.edu> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:

>That really isn't saying much, since the definition of "crime" and
>"criminal" is entirely up to the whims of the Israeli occupation forces.

"Crime" is always defined by the local authorities, everywhere.
Such definitions may change, as well.  Is abortion a crime or not?

In some places, writing silly stories about the Prophet Mohammed is 
a crime punishable by death.  In other places, it is entirely legal 
to write such stories.   In Iran, it is even illegal to write such
things in OTHER places!  

Saying that these definitions are made by the "Israeli occupation
forces" indicates your bias against Israel, even at the expense of 
logic.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com               Pat Paulsen for President
American-Occupied New York                    This year he has a real chance!
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.
From: bgdv706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (Noam Tractinsky)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Democratic elections?
Date: 14 Sep 92 02:58:09 GMT
Organization: University of Texas @ Austin

In <EGGERTJ.92Sep10221531@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu> Jim Eggert wrote:
Date: 11 Sep 92 03:15:31 GMT

>>   >What is your opinion of the recent elections in Lebanon and Yemen?
>>
>>   Do you mean those that were boycotted by all the Christians and held
>>   under the rifles and tanks of Assad?

> One should also point out that the Israeli-dominated Southern Lebanese
> Army enforced an election boycott in their areas.  Funny that a
> democratic Israel would be against democracy.


	To make things clear, Jim. When elections to a Palestinian 
	parliament will be held under the observing eyes of 40,000
	Israeli troops, will you consider them to be democratic
	elections?



Noam
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: adam@sparkle.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: Israel's peace talks with Syria
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 20:16:25 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.165605.9014@usl.edu> pssres12@ucs.usl.edu (Vignes Gerard M) writes:
>In article <1992Sep11.161313.8281@cs.brown.edu> hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky) writes:
>>realistically make land concessions. The Golan Heights are of vast strategic
>>imprtance to Israel. Besides the fact that the Golan is a very mountaneous
>>region, it also happens to lie in very close proximity to Israel's
>>sole source of fresh water.

>	The "vast strategic importance" argument is bogus.
>	Rapid evolution of weapons systems and their general
>	availability has rendered territorial boundaries
>	incapable of providing protection from attack.

Nonsense.  A concentrated artilery barrage is far more deadly than a
missile like a scud.  Wars are still fought and won by tanks and
infantry, and starting with your tanks and infantry on the high ground
makes defending much easier.

An example of this was in the Gulf war.  The Coalition planes pounded
the Iraqi army into the ground, but it wasn't until the tanks rolled
through that Kuwait was liberated.

The high ground no longer makes you unattackable.  It does provide protection.

>	Only viable intelligence and air-combat capability
>	can protect a population today, and Israel has
>	the best services in the region---better by far
>	than most in the developing world.

And having the high ground protects your army, and makes you less attackable.

>	After decades of unprovoked hostility on the part
>	of the Israelies, how can Syria ever be fully certain
>	of Israel's sincerity to abide by a peace agreement.

Unprovoked?  What do you call starting a war?

>	What if Israel just wants to keep the highlands so as
>	to be able to more easily attack and shell Syrian
>	settlements close to the Israeli border. 

Israel has never shelled Syrian settlements durring peacetime.  IT has
shelled construction projects, and water diversion efforts, but never
settlements.

>	And certainly, Syrian lives are not taken very lightly
>	by the Syrian government.
>					(paraphrased from Harry Mamaysky)

Really?  Tell that to the residents of Hama.


>	Both Rabin and Assad need a comprehensive treaty
>	because both Israel and Syria need lasting peace.
>	Your token gestures are, at best, token gestures,
>	not earnest negotiation in good faith, but merely
>	subterfuge for a strategy of wait-and-see.

And what goodwill gestures has Syria made?  Have they extradited Alios
Brunner?  Have they left Lebanon?  Have they stopped growing drugs in
the Bekka valley and exporting them to the US?  Have they stopped
buying missiles to target Israels civilain population?

Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all.  How true that is.      
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: eeb1@ellis.uchicago.edu (e elizabeth bartley)
Subject: Re: Fair Swap
Reply-To: eeb1@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 01:17:10 GMT

In article <Bu4KC4.Ms7@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:

>It is also important to remember that one of the framers of the resolution
>himself stated that he had no intention of including ALL of the territories.

Um....  Did he do this in debate to get the resolution passed?

Legislative intent has some relevance, certainly (though I think
primarily to clear up ambiguities in the language), but it should be
the intent of the source from which the resolution derives its
authority.

-- 
"The fools and the wise are equally harmless; it is the half-wise and the
half-foolish who are the most to be feared."       - Goethe

eeb1@ellis.uchicago.edu                              E. Elizabeth Bartley
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: hm@cs.brown.edu (Harry Mamaysky)
Subject: Re: Who are the Occupiers?
Organization: Brown Computer Science Dept.
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 18:05:36 GMT

In article 708@dscomsf.desy.de, hallam@zeus02.desy.de (Phill Hallam-Baker) writes:
>The claim that any culture has the right to raise itself to the status of law is
>completely false. That has been the root of political oppression since Soccrates
>was executed for opposing the cultural values of the state. There are no nations
>and there are no states, only individuals.

** NOTE **
Apologies if I have already posted something to the same effect. But, I think the first
followup I wrote to this somehow did not get placed into this news group.

** AND NOW FOR MY OPINION **

I must disagree with, or perhaps qualify, the above remark. While it is true that in an
ideal world people would indeed be treated as individuals, this has only very rarely been
the case in the world we live in.

History has shown time and time again that for a minority to survive it must maintain a very
strong sense of national unity and of national pride. Only such a people is willing to in-
sure its own survival. Those people who look for help to others outside of their minority
are often timesz highly (and tragically) disappointed at the response. Unfortunately it is
the case that Americans hold American priorities most dear; and Arabs hold Arab priorities
most dear;and Jews hold Jewish priorities most dear.

That this is so, or at least that so it should be, is the tragic consequence of the horrors
humanity has chosen to inflict upon itself in the past (as well as the present). Ultimately,
in today's society, the only was to insure the survival of the individual is to insure the
survival of that individual's people.

I sincerely hope that this will now always be the case. Perhaps (and hopefully sometime
soon) people will begin to regard one another as people first, and as Jews or Arabs or
Americans second. Only then will the claim that nations do not exist, only that individuals
do, have any sort of a pragmatic basis. But until that day comes, I maintain that nations
and a unified people are essential to the survival of the individual.
From: arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Prisoners or Hostages?
Date: 10 Sep 92 00:47:20 GMT
Organization: USC/Information Sciences Institute
In-reply-to: eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu's message of 9 Sep 92 20:51:14 GMT

In article <BuBwLH.Fty@news.cso.uiuc.edu> eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
> . . .
> Rabin cancelled 11 deportation orders which are targetted, not against
> suspects, but against actual terrorists and terror organizers who have
> seen their day in court.

The same nonsense we have seen repeatedly on tpm.  Deportation orders
are not, and never have been, applied to "actual terrorists" nor are
they a legal punishment for any other sort of crime.

Deportation is an administrative measure imposed at the discretion of
military and/or government officials, just like administrative
detention.
--
Yigal Arens        "You'd think [Bush] was running for First Lady instead
USC/ISI            of for President."     Bill Clinton, commenting on GOP
arens@isi.edu      attacks on his wife.   LA Times, 8/20.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: A naive question about the law of return
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 16:46:35 GMT

In article <25800@castle.ed.ac.uk> egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson) writes:
>In article <1992Sep11.181952.24956@das.harvard.edu> adam@sparkle.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
>=>In article <25734@castle.ed.ac.uk> egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson) writes:
>=>>In article <1992Sep10.162657.5262@das.harvard.edu> adam@sparkle.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
>=>>=>In article <25703@castle.ed.ac.uk> egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson) writes:
[Adam]
>=>>=>Yes, they do.  The law of return allows people who may or may not be
>=>>=>Jews to "return" to Israel in order to prevent them from being
>=>>=>persecuted for their "Jewishness."

[Jeremy]
>=>>So, in this sense, Israel is not a "physical" homeland but a place of
>=>>refuge, right?

[Adam]
>=>However, that should not be taken to imply that that is its only
>=>purpose, or that that is the only reason for Israel to exist.

[Jeremy]
>So, to go a little further, Israel must be seen as a "homeland" for the
>Jews (an elective affiliation) rather than as an ancestral homeland for
>a people evicted by the Romans, right?

Nope.  It can be seen as a homeland for the Jews, a people evicted
by the Romans, who have longed to return for 2,000 years.  The
argument that Jews are converts is nonsense.  The number of converts
in Christian Europe (from 400 to say 1700) to Judaism was probably
close to zero.  Ditto for Islamic converts to Judaism in Arabia
(800-1900).  The number of converts to Judaism during the
enlightenment was probably also very low.  So when did this mass of
people convert, so that you can claim most Jews are affiliated by
choice, rather than by ancestry?

>And to continue, supposing that the answer to the above question is in the
>affirmative, can you suggest a basis on which we might decide which such
>elective affiliations are worthy of this kind of treatment? 

I did not answer in the affirmative, but if I had, I would answer that
as converts to Judaism were killed by Germans just as quickly as Jews
whose ancestors were Jews, a homeland for Jews should be a homeland
for those who are going to be killed for their Judaism.

Or should those people who have elected to become Jews be allowed to
die if no country on Earth will allow them to enter, as happened in
WW2?

Adam

Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all.  How true that is.      
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast