From: moselecw@elec.canterbury.ac.nz (C.W. Moseley)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: In Defense of Feminism's Detractors...
Date: 4 Sep 92 22:22:20 GMT
Organization: Electrical Engineering, University of Canterbury, New Zealand

Will, this is an OLD posting, why did you bring it up now?

goid@zooid.guild.org (Will Steeves) writes:
> jyanowitz@hamp.hampshire.EDU writes...
> JY> [pro-feminist mens list instead of men using soc.feminism,
> JY> the introductory post and statement of purpose]

> While I laud your efforts to do something to advance the cause of
> feminism, which you feel strongly about, I do not think much of your
> attempt to collectively bash men as people who apparently by nature
> are "co-opting women's spaces".

And many women feel that they do. I feel that men often overshadow the
input of women to this group, which is not what I personally would
like from soc.feminism.  There also seems to be a feeling that it
should be a supportive forum not a flamewar or argument about the
validity of feminism.  Feminism is to me mainly a woman freeing women
thing, and I rarely identify myself as feminist, never without
disclaimers. Female friends can and sometimes do call me that, and I
am happy to be so called.

> And if there happen to be more men who disagree with feminism than
> there are women who agree with it, then go ahead and start your own
> group assuming that no man will agree, or woman disagree?

to defend it anyway, I became interested in a mens list because there
were a couple of threads on soc.feminism on mens issues, and comments
that this was not really the place for that. I tried soc.men, and the
only response was a couple of flames, and abusive email. Plan B: a
mens list.

> rather than endlessly gripe about all the "women haters" with whom
> you hold disagreements.

As you say, Jason did start his own group, and has now gone there to
talk about his own thing. To claim that a single post is `endlessly
griping' is really stretching things, Will.

> hold disagreements.  Indeed, if the tables were turned, ie., more
> pro-feminist people than dissenters, *you* would certainly be
> leading the charge against *us*, would you not?

what? you mean, if you personally were part of a pro-feminist
majority, then you expect that Jason would be attacking you? I think
this is unlikely for two reasons: Jason is not an attacking person, in
my experience; and Jason seems to want to be part of a pro-feminist
majority.

Note: the language here may seem typical of some wimp-style mens
groupies, but let me say that it is more a matter of me trying to
convey a desire not to alienate people by being explicit about what I
mean. This comes from talking with a variety of people oppressed in
different ways, and being aware of how easily you can make people feel
really co-opted by using their own terms to describe yourself. (esp.
Feminist, coming from a male)

MOZ

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