HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kniaz@rt3.cs.wisc.edu (Joel Kniaz)
Subject: Re: Will America fall?
Organization: University of Wisconsin, Madison -- Computer Sciences Dept.
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1992 18:26:02 GMT

In article <1992Apr8.005256.4868@leland.Stanford.EDU> underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe) writes:

>As I've said before, the model minority concept might apply to
>the Japanese-Americans and Korean-Americans, but it certainly doesn't
>apply to Chinese-Americans.  A visit to Chinatown should convince
>you.  (I've been told by a couple of Chinese to stay away from
>Chinatown, a very unsafe place--"thanks" to Chinese culture.)

	So now you are attacking Chinese-Americans?  This is ridiculous.
	I grew up with and around several deeply traditional Chinese-
	American families.    As friends, their children were some of 
	the most well-behaved, motivated, hard-working kids that I knew.
	These are people from Taiwan or the PRC who spoke Chinese at home,
	and held many of the traditional values which they brought with 
	them from home.  They were not "twinkies," or apologists for their
	Chinese culture, nor did they in any way deny the significance of
	these values to their lives.  I take very great offense that you 
	would make this ridiculous generalization about these American
	citizens who have made the admirable commitment to pass the tenets,
	values, and language of their culture on to their american-born 
	children.  

	This extremely racist and ethnocentric attitude of yours has taken
	you way too far this time.  I will not let such narrow-minded 
	statements as this one stand.  I will take you down on this one.

>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Seikatsu no imi ha nan desu ka.            \|  |`      | Don't buy from Toyota;
>Shitte itara oshiete kuremasen ka.          | -+-      | especially, don't buy
>                                           /| / \      | from Capitol Toyota in
>Copyright 1992.                                        | San Jose, California.
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

							-Sincere as Hell,
								Joel Kniaz

     ______________________________________________________________________
    / "Lo, Though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death,       /
    \    I fear not!                                        ______________\
    /  For I am the biggest son-of-a-bitch in the valley." / My favorite  /
    \______________________________________________________\ expression...\
    / Joel Kniaz   kniaz@garfield.cs.wisc.edu  kniaz@jomby /      __i     /
    \______________________________________________________\_yiLballe(Mu)_\
From: sieh@quads.uchicago.edu (Lui Sieh)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: asian-american achievement
Date: 11 Apr 92 15:38:25 GMT
Reply-To: sieh@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations

In article <1992Mar31.164254.26590@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> sbog6936@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu
(Bin Ong) writes:
>[stuff deleted]
>Now how about Asian-Americans? In a separate sample, Stevensonfound
>that Asian-American students in Chicago scored lower than their peers
>in Taiwan and Japan, but still higher than peers of other ethnic
>groups in the US sample. Dornbusch's study quoted in my earlier post
>indicate Asian-Americans do continue the trend. 

I'm curious if the Stevenson study broke down Asian Americans into their
respective ethnic categories and took note of which generation they belonged.

If this was stated, sorry.  Please refresh my memory.

>Now, maybe I should ask, if you did well in school, why did you? Or how
>did you? Was it because you were motivated? How about behavior? Did you     
>study harder than others? Put in more hours, etc? My theory is that,
>beyond all the cultural and motivational factors, it is hard work that
>eventually determines who does well or not. Your comments??

Hard work?  What's that?  In another group, someone stated that the "American
dream" was a free lunch.  I agree.

IMO, I've found that the 80s was marked by a steady erosion of moral and
ethical values and that people's attitudes have been more cynical than ever.


-- 
//Lui Sieh
Dum loquimur, fugerit invida Aetas: carpe diem, quam minimum postero.  
Horace, Odes, I.xi.7;	<-- "Why post to USENET?" -Brian O.  Indeed.
What about my opinions? ==>> /dev/null	or  sieh@midway.uchicago.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
From: shay@osiris (George Shay)
Subject: Re: Oriental bias against Indians !! How true ??
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 00:03:24 GMT

vishram@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Vishram P.Dalvi) writes:

>        From what I have heard, this kind of an attitude is also
>very prevalent in Korea. My Korean collegues claimed something like
>men are equivalent to gods and a woman should consider it fortunate
>to be able to be of service to them. This is an extreme condition
>and won't be found even in India ! How about China ? Do men help their
>wives in everything at home ? Do the wives work outside the house too ?
>That would make the situation different you see ! Am curious to know
>more about your culture directly from you guys.

And I know a lot of Japanese men hold that kind of attitude. I am just
wondering whether it is a common  attitude in Asian culture(or should I say
not-so-modern asain culture?) 
But in China now, since women are working outside, contributing almost half
to the family income, supporting their families finailly, their situation
has changed gramatically. Chinese men do have to work both inside and
outside. If someone tells his wife he does not want to do any house work
simply because he is a man, he'd better wait for the divorce. So Chinese men
are learning a lot of hard lessons and they are changing. In my generation
in China, men are girlfirend/wife-fear.

Well, what I said here applies to the urban young professionals because they
are much more influenced by werstern culture and women liberation movement.
In rural areas, it is changing. As I know not as liberal as big cities.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
From: kyee@bnlux1.bnl.gov (kenton yee)
Subject: Do we need a special AA language?(AA literary culture),Immunize Art
Organization: Brookhaven National Laboratory, Upton, NY 11973
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1992 21:41:15 GMT

In article <11926@tamsun.tamu.edu> achin@math.tamu.edu (Andrew Chin) writes:
>Yup--I completely missed the point.  
  Yup, I think you did;  let me try again.

>The quintessential AA value is
>materialism; therefore, the truest AA voice is the one that sells
>the most books.  :-/
>Andrew Chin    Dept. of Math.    Texas A&M U.    College Station, TX 77843

  What I'm trying to say is that unless you're a writer it's a bit
presumptuous to be giving advice to writers... artists 
choose their medium for professional/artistic reasons; not for 
political reasons (unless they are also political activists, but it's
 not fair to categorically place such an expectation on them).   

  Now, Andrew, why not take some of your own advice... start using
 your AA language in your math papers.  Make sure AA mathematicians
  get full credit in your references...  If you do that, then maybe
 others will take your advice more seriously.  On the other hand, if
 you think math should be immune from AA politics, then I bet a 
 lot of artists think art should be just as immune.  
    Ken
From: houch@mitre.org (Jim Houchens)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: What is a flame, from the cultural perspective?
Keywords: English lesson, equivalence of cultures
Date: 31 Mar 92 17:19:42 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: The MITRE Corporation

wsun@sdbio2.ucsd.edu (Fiberman) writes:

>In article <1992Mar10.085703.20597@leland.Stanford.EDU> underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe) writes:
>>
>>The Western view of women is enlightened.  The Chinese way is
>>not.  

Fiberman replies:

>That's why there's tons of pornography in this great country of
>USA and none in China.  

There's plenty of pornography in Hong Kong and Nationalist China.  The
only thing keeping it out of Communist China is the communists.
There's no free press or free speech either.

Unfortunately, we can't ban pornography (or Fibermen) without
endangering free speech.

-- Jim
From: ikeda@vxcrna.cern.ch (IKEDA,M./EP)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: Asian American Food (?)
Date: 8 Apr 92 15:45:00 GMT
Organization: European Organization for Nuclear Research, CERN
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

To keep this thread going, what about

Green Tea Ice Cream

It sounds horrible but it's actually pretty
good.  I never had the stuff in the old country.
I first had it in a Japanese restaurant in LA
ca 1978.  Anybody know who invented this?
-- Makoto
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
From: underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe)
Subject: Re: re China never as prosperous as Europe?
Organization: Miners for a Heart of Gold
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 92 19:43:30 GMT

In article <kuoslgINN94b@jethro.Corp.Sun.COM>
melindac@thedarktower.Corp.Sun.COM (I'm a Stairmasters Junkie) writes:
>
>	underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe) :
>	> The appropriate comparison, as I've said before, is among the 
>	> current state of the various societies. 
>
>No. At first you said that China has never been as prosperous as
>US and Western Europe then when someone proved you wrong, you immediately
>amended your statement to include "Modern = 20 century US and Western
>Europe" as if that's what you meant all along. Feh.

Ms. Cheung is wrong again.

I have repeated several times since January that the USA and Western Europe
(as well as Japan and S. Korea) in 1992 are better off than China at any
point in its savage history.

>
>	> The Chinese culture destroyed the hopes and dreams of generations of
>	> Chinese--of an entire nation.  It's the same culture where
>       > infanticide
>	> is condoned--past and present.
>
>Wrong. I contend that infanticide is *NOT* condoned by the Chinese people.

Wrong again.

Infanticide is still occurring today and is condoned by the Chinese.

>
>	Melinda

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Seikatsu no imi ha nan desu ka.            \|  |`      | Don't buy from Toyota;
Shitte itara oshiete kuremasen ka.          | -+-      | especially, don't buy
                                           /| / \      | from Capitol Toyota in
Copyright 1992.                                        | San Jose, California.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
From: yumei@wam.umd.edu (yumei)
Subject: Re: Lack of AA literary culture (was New topic!)
Organization: University of Maryland at College Park
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1992 13:35:51 GMT

In article <1992Apr4.213637.14490@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> ajh@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Alan Hu) writes:
>In article <1992Apr4.080716.3436@Princeton.EDU> fchen@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Franklin M. Chen) writes:
>>
>>And what "establishment" is this?  Are you speaking of the
>>"establishment" which found James Joyce's works incomprehensible and
>>obscene?  (By the way, here is one writer who clearly did NOT write in
>>"Standard Written English"!)  Then the issue has nothing whatsoever to
>>do with race or culture in particular, but the whims of a few powerful
>>critics.
>
>	Yes and no.  Yes, it's based on the whims of a few powerful
>	critics.  Yes, it's based on people's mindlessly (or prudently)
>	following these whims.  Yes, it has nothing to do with race
>	or culture, except that these whims are regularly used to
>	disparage the aesthetic merit of works by people who are
>	attempting to voice the experiences of a race or culture
>	other than that of the upper-crust, over-whelmingly white, "educated"
>	Standard-Written-English-speaking critics


Well, let's not forget the educational establishments that enforce such
"standard EnglishSpecifically, the Freshman Writing programs all
over the country keep up the "standard" beyond SAT tests.  Ask anyone
who teaches Enlgish 101, you will find out that these teachers, however
aware they are of the validity of "other voices," have to force their
students to use not only standard spelling, grammar, but also standard
punctuation and a whole bunch of other nuisance.  Part of the effort is
due to the teachers' legitmate concern about the "marketablity" of the
students.  The entire question, in my opinion, and I think that is what
Alan is saying too, goes back to the question of power, rather than the
specific usages of the language.  Hemingway, e.e. cummings and such are
writers who have gained acceptance and approval of the literary 
establishment.  And their writings hence have become "classic."  But,
if you isolate a paragraph from Faulkner or Hemingway, and ask someone
who doesn't know the source of this paragraph, he/she probably will
think it as a piece of poor writing the way English teachers treat 
some of their students' papers.

					Yumei
 
-- 
******************************************************************************
          If silence is a weapon, how do you fire it?
******************************************************************************
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
From: cshi@cs.ulowell.edu (Chunde Shi)
Subject: Re: Will America fall?
Organization: University of Massachusetts at Lowell Computer Science
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1992 04:15:12 GMT

In article <1992Apr8.005256.4868@leland.Stanford.EDU> underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe) writes:
>In article <22524@dog.ee.lbl.gov> yjhbhc@dante.lbl.gov (Joe Huang) writes:
>>...
>
>The FBI report from the New York Times noted that the Chinese gangs
I read an article from Boston Glob today. It said that young blacks in America
inner city have a higher death rate resulted from stabing or gun shooting
those American sodiers had in war times for any wars U.S. had engaged.
Inner city is a war zone.
From: tdwu@theory.lcs.mit.edu (Thomas Wu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: Lack of AA literary culture (was New topic!)
Date: 8 Apr 92 01:59:55 GMT
	<1992Apr7.053713.7500@wam.umd.edu>
	<1992Apr7.200338.23412@Princeton.EDU>
Organization: MIT Lab for Computer Science


In article <1992Apr7.053713.7500@wam.umd.edu> yumei@wam.umd.edu (yumei) writes:

>>Get educated: there's a real act for you.

In article <1992Apr7.200338.23412@Princeton.EDU>
fchen@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Franklin M. Chen) writes:

>This is the oddest sentence I have ever encountered.  It was obviously
>not written by someone who has a grasp of "Standard Written English." :-)
> . . . Would someone translate this sentence into Evil White
>"Standard Written English" for me, please??

I'll play along (even though Franklin can parse the sentence perfectly
well!).  The word "get" is an auxiliary verb with the meaning of
"become" or "be", as in "I am getting tired of this discussion."  [For
further discussion, consult the Washington Square Press Handbook of Good
English, 1983, page 254.]  So "get educated" means "become educated".

Now, perhaps some clarification on this whole discussion, if I may:

"Standard Written English" is a syntactic notion.  It provides "rules"
for the appropriate ordering of words in a sentence.  I put "rules" in
quotes, because as Noam Chomsky teaches us, the rules don't really
come from English grammar teachers, but from the speaker's and
listener's ability to parse a given sentence.  So, "get educated" is
syntactically correct, but "educated get" is not.

The "Asian American Voice" being advocated by some is a pragmatic
notion.  Pragmatics deals with the choice of words and idioms to
convey a meaning.  Some people are also advocating an "Asian American
Syntax" (whatever that means).  This would therefore compete with
"Standard Written English".  So, in summary, the levels are:

	Syntax -- Standard Written English vs. Asian-American Syntax
	Pragmatics -- Asian-American Voice

You can have an "Asian-American Voice" with "Standard Written
English".  The two notions can coexist.  You can also have an
"Asian-American Voice" with an "Asian-American Syntax", as soon as
someone invents one.

As an analogy, consider Afro-American literature.  There does exist a
black syntax, with its own grammatical rules.  For instance, "He be
speaking" is legal and apparently has a distinct meaning from "He
speaking" or "He is speaking".  There also exists a black voice, which
you can find in the Afro-American literature of Wright, Baldwin,
Ellison, Baraka, Morrison.  This black voice, for the most part uses
Standard Written English as its syntactic standard.

-------------------------
Thomas Wu
tdwu@mit.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american,soc.culture.taiwan,soc.culture.china
From: zzuo@iastate.edu (Zhiqi Zuo)
Subject: Re: UNDERDOG:  WAKE UP AND OPEN YOUR MIND.
Keywords: predestination
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, IA
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 19:04:33 GMT

In article <1992Apr15.013941.13394@medsys.rn.com> bbs@medsys.UUCP (Public BBS System) writes:
>In article <1992Apr12.005212.6475@leland.Stanford.EDU> underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe) writes:
>>
>>At no point in Chinese history has China ever been as prosperous
>>and well off as the USA or Western Europe.  Even if you reach back
>>3000 years like the way many China-philes like to do, you will find
>>that China was far worse than modern Western society.  There was
>>no penicillin, no antibiotics, no Bill of Rights, no human decency
>>(but that's always been true, hasn't it?), etc. in China.
>>
>
>That is right. And so many Chinese praise Confucius I simply cannot understand
>why. Did Confucius know anything about group theory? Did he know anything
>about solving differential equations? Did he speak English? I doubt very
>much if he even knew how to ride a bicycle, not mentioning driving a car.

2000 years ago ?  How about Jesus ?

>
>Chou1
>                                           

  
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american,soc.culture.indian
From: clare@nynexst.com (Clare Chu Ayala)
Subject: Re: Oriental bias against Indians ? How true ?
Organization: Nynex Science and Technology
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 92 15:23:19 GMT

In article <1992Apr15.215353.26089@tcsi.com> gwu@nujoizey.tcs.com (George Wu) writes:
>-
>     At risk of giving Dwight yet more ammunition to bash the Chinese, I
>believe there is some bias among orientals against people (not just Indians)
>with darker skin.  This is not based upon more than a few personal
>experiences, but it is the general feeling I get.

  But I think this is due to class differences, i.e. if you work out in
  the fields, you are darker and if you're an intellectual, you're pale
  and thin (bookish types are looked up to in traditional Chinese culture).
  I don't think it is a race thing, because the same person would have
  a tan if he worked in the fields and thus be darker.
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clare Chu, Ph.D.             Data & Information Services
NYNEX Science & Technology   clare@nynexst.com
White Plains, NY 10462       AMIGA RULES!!!
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
From: clare@nynexst.com (Clare Chu Ayala)
Subject: Re: Oriental bias against Indians ? How true ?
Organization: Nynex Science and Technology
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 92 13:18:22 GMT

In article <1992Apr14.190157.10760@oakhill.sps.mot.com> jpak@oakhill.sps.mot.com (James Pak) writes:
>
>Besides, as has been discussed umpteenth million times here, in general, Asian
>women are definitely considered more "attractive" to non-Asian men than AMs to
>non-Asian women.
>
>Personally, I don't doubt Tim or George's anecdotes.
  I didn't doubt them, I just wanted to point out that not all
  people are prejudiced against you for having an Asian and/or
  Spanish name.
>
>>  This is the only newsgroup where people have flamed me.
>
>Did this happen within the past year?  I've been reading this group quite
>diligently, and I don't recall anybody flaming you.  Disagreeing, perhaps, but
>no flames.  When did this happen?
  Someone said I was stupid because I didn't see why Asian guys should
  feel low self-esteem about getting dates over CM.  I don't see that
  CM have such an advantage.  They said their post was sarcasm (the
  one about the CM being better) and I said that it was not true,
  otherwise why are there more Asians in the world? (e-mail)

  I'm not being insensitive to your plight, but I feel that if you
  internalize this "non-attractiveness" then you have lost already.
  If someone is not interested, just move on.  If you don't think
  highly of yourself, no one else will.  So I feel that all this
  dwelling on the supposedly "non-attractiveness" issue is self-
  defeating.  BTW, I know of a CM who think Asian women are ugly, okay?
  So what?  There are always those who won't like you and really
  who cares?  I wouldn't want to date someone with that kind of
  attitude anyway.  There are plenty of fishes, like they say.
  This person, then goes on to say that I am an exception to that
  and expects me to date him???
>
>>  I don't know why I bother, but I guess I do want to keep up with what other
>>  Asian Americans are up to.  :-(
>
>Why does that merit a frown?
  Because this is an unhappy newsgroup compared to other groups.
  The soc.culture.filipino group is much more friendly and happy.
>
>Jim
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clare Chu, Ph.D.             Data & Information Services
NYNEX Science & Technology   clare@nynexst.com
White Plains, NY 10462       AMIGA RULES!!!
From: tse@Apple.COM (Gary Tse)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: Why is stereotyping bad? (Re: 'Asian Nerd' Stereotype)
Date: 16 Apr 92 18:13:40 GMT
Reply-To: tse@apple.com
Distribution: na
Organization: Raoul Duke School of Pharmacology and Journalism

I have lived practically all my time stateside in the Bay Area.  Regional
differences account for all my answers.

oshiro@en.ecn.purdue.edu (Woodrow S Oshiro) writes:
>Now, in MY case, no matter how I am dressed or groomed I will still be:
>Complimented on my accentless English

Never happens, until I volunteer the fact that I lived the bulk of my life
in Hong Kong.  Unlike the reported experience of most folks here, people
are surprised to find that I am not a native.

>Asked if I know karatE

Sorry.  Again, this has never happened.

In fact, people are usually amazed when I go into one of my anti-English
poetry tirades ("Love is not love which alters when it alterations find, 
or bends with the remover to remove"?  What utter bunk.)

>Asked how long I've been in this country 

This is usually the second question I am asked when folks find out I am 
an immigrant.  The first is usually "You're kidding, right?".  (Or as 
one friend put it, "You mean Hong Kong, Ohio?".)

>Asked "What are you?"

Yep.  Third question I am asked when folks find out I was born elsewhere.

>Called "Charlie", "gook", "Jap"

Bullseye.  I was living in a particularly nasty part of Oakland for
several years, and I have been indirectly called these names many
times.  Of course, I have had many Asian Americans call me a twinkie
too.  So that's only fair.

Ya know, come to think of it, I have had much more grief from my "fellow
minorities" than I have had from whites.   

-- 
Gary Tse 	     tse@Apple.COM || tse@soda.Berkeley.EDU 	 (408) 862-5452