From: adams@spss.com (Steve Adams)
Subject: Re: MORALITY IN GENERAL...
Date: 16 Apr 92 19:37:10 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: SPSS Inc.

goehring@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Scott Goehring) writes:

>muehlhau@en.ecn.purdue.edu (John Muehlhausen) writes:

>[I will deal with the content of this non-answer.  Doing so does not
>acknowledge that Mr. Muehlhausen has answered the question; I would
>appreciate it if Mr. Muehlhausen would answer the questions posed to
>him instead of evading them by jaunting off into "God's plan for
>life".]

Pardon my butting in, but I think John's way off base....

>>God has a plan for each of our lives.
>Am I incapable of forming my own plan for my life?
No, your not.  And the way I read the Scriptures, you get to plan your own
life.  It is on the last day, at judgement, that you must justify yourself
before the Lord.  God lets us say No.  If you do, you run the risks.
[of course, you don't see any risk here, if I understand correctly! :-)]

>>We are happiest if we live within that plan, because it is in
>>fulfillment of our very existence.
>I would personally find it much more fulfilling to formulate my own
>life plan than to meekly follow the orders of another.  Any happiness
>which arises from the latter is probably artificial.
This is your free will.  You may decide among the several alternatives, one
of which is written in the Bible.  I have chosen to follow that path, for I
think it is right.  There is no requirement for you to follow it.

>>On the larger scale, God _has_ made what is inherently "right" and
>>"wrong" evident in all creation and has placed it on each man's
>>heart.

>Really.  I've asked you to justify this assertation before, as well as
>the assertation that there exist absolute right and wrong.

I don't believe this to be a correct statement on John's part.  Although
God has his 'list' of right and wrong, we are not privledged to know
exactly what's on it.  In fact, each of us is to be judged by our words and
actions, at least according to Jesus.  Don't worry, Scott.  John's gotta
stand before Jesus and explain why he was so busy judging you that he
forgot to look after himslef. [Matthew 7:1-5]

>>By inspiring various individuals to pen his _really real_ plan for
>>mankind, God has (among many other important aspects) given us a rock
>>on which to build our faith, so that we can _know_ what He desires
>>without the individual "hardening of the heart" controlling our lives
>>and working against the "new man" which we, as Christians, should be
>>constantly striving for.

>This is another thing about Christian rhetoric that irritates me: the
>continual insistence that man is worthless, incapable of good on his
>own.  Why Christians insist on having such negative feelings about
>themselves is beyond me; I certainly want nothing to do with a
>religion that insists that I am, by myself, little better than pond
>scum.

The problem is that with such heavy commands as Christ gave, we cannot
possibly live every one of them at every moment.  Thus we all sin.  Yes,
I'm a sinner, but that certainly doesn't make me worthless.  I suspect my
wife and kids don't think so, either.  Not sure about my employer, given
the volume of my posts lately...:-)

There is far too much self-deprication in Christianity.  Jesus wanted a
joyful proclaimation of his message.  That's what we should try to do.  And
he told us not to complain about others' sins until we were sinless...

>>If these times exist (I know they do for me), I think you will find
>>them firmly rooted in self-reliance and the inherent trust humans
>>have in their fallible selves.

>They arise, because we are human.  Denying our own humanity is
>foolish.  Denying negative emotions is foolish.  Without negatives,
>there can be no positives.

Without evil there can be no good.  Without hell, there can be no heaven.
Without damnation, there can be no salvation.  Without sin there can be no
redemption.

>>Lets face it - we _need_ the Bible!
>Why?
He needs it to justify his anti-homosexual biggotry....

>>I cannot express how dissapointed I am to see so many of God's own
>>turning away from the most precious gift He has given us next to
>>Jesus Himself...

>I would appreciate it if you would stop assigning ownership of myself
>to nonexistent beings.

Well, Scott, God does exist, but He does not 'own' you the way John
implies.  Although He created you, you have a Free Will, and may live your
life as you see fit.  It's obvious that you don't believe, but that doesn't
stop God from loving you.  And he does.  And though you are an unbeliever,
it doesn't stop me from loving you.  As for John, even the sinners and
publicans love their friends...we should love everyone.

 -Steve
--
 The opinions expressed above are those of the author and not SPSS, Inc.
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     adams@spss.com                           Phone: (312) 329-3522
     Steve Adams                              Fax:   (312) 329-3558