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Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 08:32:09 -0400
From:         Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM>
Subject:      Re: Purgatory: Justice or Works?

Excerpts from christia: 30-Sep-92 Re: Purgatory: Justice or W.. Wolfgang
Hutter@DULRUU51 (2063)

> In a message of Tue, 29 Sep 1992 13:36:02 -0400
> Received on Tue, 29 Sep 92 18:41 N
> Eric James Ewanco <ewanco@MLO.DEC.COM> wrote:

> > NO -- you obviously are totally missing the point.  _NOTHING_ is being
> > added to the atonement of Jesus Christ.  Purgatory has nothing to do
> > with soteriology!  It has to do with SANCTIFICATION.

> Let's think about a Christian who dies (saved by the blood of Jesus).
> Let's suppose that he wouldn't enter purgatory. Would he be granted
> access into heaven?

> If yes - then there is no need for purgatory, is there? If no - then
> Christ's work obviously is not enough!

Christ's sacrifice on the Cross gives us a provision for salvation from
condemnation, remission of sin, and reconciliation and fellowship with
God.  It does not dismiss us from the temporal effects of sin.  If it
did, we would not sin anymore after being Christians.  You say "Christ's
work obviously is not enough."  My reply is that Christ's sacrifice
isn't enough, not in the sense that it is inefficacious to save us, but
in the sense that it doesn't do everything for us -- we still have to
respond to it, and we still must suffer temporal consequences of sin.
Sin STILL damages us spiritually.  Sin STILL separates us from God.  The
difference is that by Christ's sacrifice, we have a means of being
forgiven for that sin so that we may enter Heaven.

Would he be granted access into heaven? Yes -- but nothing impure or
unclean can enter heaven.  Claiming Christ's sacrifice over our sins
obviously does not purify our souls -- we still are rebellious, we still
suffer passions of the flesh, we still have an old man of sin who
entices us to sin.  Do you deny that?  Do you further deny that that
impurity, that imperfection, can enter the presence of God?  How do you
suppose we get from this impure state we are in to a state of real
holiness required to enter the presence of God?  If you reply, well,
Christ's sacrifice purifies us. I would then reply, then why do we still
have those imperfections?  If we're already purified, why do we still do
impure things?

If we, in our impurity, attempt to enter the full presence of the
all-holy God, would not all unholiness in us instantly be burned off by
the all-consuming fire of God?

> I think that the main problem here is the meaning and the scope of the
> term "salvation".

I think I'd agree.

> > Again, and again, I will point out:  Scripture makes it clear that
> > though we are forgiven of our sins, we must STILL suffer for them.

> Maybe I missed your references for that. If so would you please send
> them to me privately? If you didn't name them yet, could you please do
> so? I mean the passages that make it  * clear *.

I need my concordance, there are a large number of them.  I don't have
my concordance at work, as soon as I have time at home I'll look them up.

> > We  reap what we sow, we will be repaid according to our works, forgiveness
> > or no!

> But this does not require purgatory! A simple reward system will do.

Rewards can be either good or bad.  Besides, we cannot judge what's the
best way to handle this; God does what he wills.

> > David was forgiven by God, but his son still died.  Paul said
> > that he fills up in his own flesh what is lacking in the sufferings of
> > Christ.

> O.K. granted that this is related to what we are talking about: these
> sufferings" took place while the persons were still living, not after
> their death!

What happens if someone dies before these (necessary) sufferings take place?

Suppose I ask you a further question.  A Christian dies.  But during
their life, they committed many sins for which they remained stubbornly
unrepentant.  For example, like a refusal to love as they should, anger,
envy, things like that.

How can God forgive these sins which are not repented of?  Scripture
teaches that we must repent of our sins in order to be forgiven.  God's
justice demands that man be punished for his sins, and only repentance
and forgiveness can bring cleansing of that sin by the blood of the
sacrifice of Christ.  Yet this person stubbornly refused to repent in a
few areas. Does he --

1) Enter heaven?  But he has sins that are not covered by the blood of
Jesus -- remember, all sin leads to death, and the justice of God
demands that we be condemned for any sin whatsoever.
2) Enter Hell?  But is this just? Do we need to fear all unrepented sin?

Some of you would argue that Christ's sacrifice covers all sins, past,
present, and future, but I'd like to see Scriptural support for this and
an explanation of a few difficult passages (for example, Christ's
statement that if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven, and the
verse in 1 John about the unforgivable sin.)

Tell me how a person can enter Heaven with sins that are not "covered"
by the blood of Christ.

Eric
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