From: lhep_ltd@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Leonidas Hepis)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Does God Exist? And proof of existence!
Date: 16 Aug 92 05:41:53 GMT
Organization: University of Rochester - Rochester, New York

In <Aug.11.02.47.01.1992.12777@aramis.rutgers.edu> stehman@hubcap.clemson.edu (Jeff Stehman) writes:

>>Matter itself is not the great first cause, as some seem to think - for
>>there was a time, long, long ago, where matter came into existence. 
>>Something could not bring itself into existence out of nothing.  There
>>was, then, a creating power that is apart from, and independent of
>>matter.

>I've heard this one from many, many people, and I've never understood it.
>Why are so many people capable of believing in a creator that has always
>existed, yet incapable of accepting that matter might have always existed?
>Enlightenment welcome.

>						Jeff Stehman

Jeff,

	I agree with you.  People look around and see chairs, tv's, 
cars, computers, etc.  All these were made by someone and were made 
for a reason.  It's natural for people to associate with every object 
a creator.  Then, people look further around and they see a mountain, 
a planet, the sky and it's natural for them to think that there must 
have been someone (acting with reason) behind the creation of those 
objects, too. 
	Since people generally believe that matter has no intelligence 
of its own, some non-material being must be behind the creation.  This 
kind of reasoning is not specific to Christians.  Many people have 
attributed the creation to spiritual beings.
	It's interesting that they never ask who or what created
the Creator.  But then again, the Creator is not material like a chair,
and it's easy to convince ourselves that IT needs not be created by anyone.
Let alone that a religion employing an endless questioning of "who 
created the creator of the Creator of...." concentrates on the wrong thing:
the origin of God - not the fate of humans, which is what we want religion 
to concentrate on.
	I, too, find it just as easy (or hard) to believe that Matter 
pre-existed as I find it easy (or hard!) to believe that a spiritual 
Being pre-existed.  After all, one who claims that Matter pre-existed 
can show Matter to us.  One who claims that a spiritual Being pre-existed 
fails to bring any evidence of even current existence.
	But with the discovery of equivalence of matter and energy, it
becomes easier to accept that matter may have pre-existed. If I recall
well, the Greek Bible starts with "EN ARXH HN O LOGOS", which I would
translate "At the begining there was Ratio/Wisdom/[the Lord?]".
	Hey, how about "In the begining there was E=mc^2" ?

Enlightment welcome!

-leo

ps. I don't have a copy of the Greek Bible with me.  Sorry if the quote
was not precise.  It's irrelevant to my argument.

ps2. My use of IT for God is not meant to offend anyone.  I refuse to
use He or She since rational thinking tells me that God would be neither
male nor female.  "He/She" is a pc compromise but I find that a bit 
funny. It's what I would use for a hermaphrodite, not an entity with
no sex/gender.


-- 
Leonidas Hepis              lhep_ltd@uhura.cc.rochester.edu         
Box 276169 , Rochester, NY 14627 , U.S.A.                           

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