HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jf@decuk.uvo.dec.com (Jason Flowers)
Subject: Cars....
Reply-To: jf@decuk.uvo.dec.com (Jason Flowers)
Organization: Digital Equipment Co. Ltd. CSC/UK
Distribution: alt
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 13:17:28 GMT




	I've always reckoned that if I do kill myself I'll do it in a car with
	a hosepipe in the exhaust feeding the fumes back into the car, any idea
	how long it takes (I guess the volume of the car is gonna be a factor,
	but lets say it was a 2 seat sports car, (it is)), how painful is it?

	Thanks,

	J

+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jason Flowers             | jf@decuk.uvo.dec.com                            |
| Digital Equipment Co.     | jf@decuk.enet.dec.com                           |
| Customer Support Centre   |                                                 |
| Jays Close,               | All opinions expressed are my own...            |
| Basingstoke, Hampshire,   |                                                 |
| England.                  | "Life's too short for all that shit." D.Gilmour |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: drw@kronecker.mit.edu (Dale R. Worley)
Newsgroups: alt.suicide.holiday
Subject: Socrates (was Re: Warning signs)
Date: 27 Jul 92 16:09:10 GMT
	<1992Jul23.034645.19771@leland.Stanford.EDU>
	<1992Jul23.172144.29326@midway.uchicago.edu>
	<1992Jul23.193102.17134@leland.Stanford.EDU>
Organization: MIT Dept. of Tetrapilotomy, Cambridge, MA, USA

In article <1992Jul23.193102.17134@leland.Stanford.EDU> underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe) writes:
   I know that Socrates was condemned to death, but he chose not to
   fight the matter and proceeded to ingest the hemlock (?).
   Socrates used his intelligence to reason that he should abide
   by the death sentence because that would be consistent with his ideals.
   (Wasn't Socrates also the one who said that the unexamined life
   is not worth living?)

More exactly, Socrates was brought up for trial on political charges,
so he forced the jury to convict him and sentence him to death, and
then chose to suffer death rather than leaving Attica.  If you read
Plato's two books (one on the trial, one on the execution, I forget
their names) carefully, it becomes clear what was going on.  Also, at
the end of the trial, Socrates told the jury, "You will be remembered
for this!"  I rate it as the world's longest-lived I-told-you-so.  He
wasn't known as The Gadfly for nothing...

Dale

Dale Worley		Dept. of Math., MIT		drw@math.mit.edu
--
 /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\
<--X--X--X--X--X--X--X--X--X--X--X--X--X--X--X--X--X--X--X--X--X--X--X-->
 \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/
   Official Argyle Mail Trailer
Newsgroups: alt.suicide.holiday
From: EUCLID@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: Black Tuesday
Organization: C.C.S.O.
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 17:23:39 GMT

In article <mordea.0u0e@terapin.com>
mordea@terapin.com (Annie Benson) writes:
 
>
>   Man, this is a depressing newsgroup.  You people should either lighten up or
        Maybe you should find another newsgroup to read.  For real yucks i
    recommend alt.personals.
>off yourselfs.  If you choose to do the later, wait till November, vote for
>Clinton so the rest of us have something to live for, then do it.
     Uh, huh.  Since when did the a.s.h. folks in Britain or Germany have
     access to the ballot in U.S. elections?  It`s a big world out there,
     ya know.
e.k.
From: arb@comp.lancs.ac.uk (Andrew Brooks)
Newsgroups: alt.suicide.holiday
Subject: Warning signs
Date: 22 Jul 92 22:12:11 GMT
Organization: Department of Certified Lunatics, UK.


Here is another interesting extract from Depression Briefing, Volume 3,
Number 2, May 1992.  It is a review of a paper which appeared in an
orthodontic journal.  There is a good list of warning signs at the end.


Looking Suicide in the Teeth
----------------------------
There are few sections of society which are not touched by the increasing
problem of suicide amongst young people.  Richard Loochtan and Richard
Cole, the former an orthodontist in private practice in Pickerington,
Ohio, and the latter a Professor in the Department of Orthodontics at
the University of Detroit, Michigan, USA, have written a disturbing
article about adolescent suicide as it affects orthodontic practice in
the United States.  They point out that the orthodontist is, in fact,
in a good position to recognise the early warning signs of adolescent
suicide, because adolescence is a time when orthodontic treatment is
usually performed, the patient returning at intervals for check-ups and
adjustments to be made to the orthodontic procedures.

They surveyed 1000 practising orthodontists and a smaller group of
chairpersons of orthodontic postgraduate programmes.  About 40% of
the orthodontists responded to the questionnaire survey - a very high
response rate in this kind of work, and indicative of the concern felt
about this problem.

An astonishing 50.3% of orthodontists reported that at least one
adolescent attempted suicide amongst their patients, and as many as 25.5%
indicated that at least one adolescent patient had actually succeeded
in committing suicide.

The authors note that little is included in the curricula of postgraduate
orthodontic programmes regarding adolescent suicide, and they recommend
that this situation should be remedied.  As a step in this direction
they list a number of warning signs which should alert the orthodontist
of a possible suicide problem.  This list has general application and
is reproduced below:

  1. Signs of depression (sleeplessness; gradual or sudden loss of
appetite; persistent boredom or lack of interest; concentration
difficulties; lack of energy of initiative)

  2. Sudden personality changes (withdrawal from family or friends;
apathy; moodiness; unexplained or unusually violent behaviour; unusual
neglect of personal appearance)

  3. Suicide threats, even if made jokingly

  4. Previous suicide attempts

  5. Statements indicative of a preoccupation with death

  6. Drug and/or alcohol abuse

  7. Unexplained decline in the quality of schoolwork

  8. Psychosomatic complaints

  9. `Final arrangements' (such as giving away personal possessions).

Loochtan, R.M. & Cole, R.M. (1991). Adolescent suicide in orthodontics:
result of a survey.  American Journal of Orthodontics and Dentofacial
Orthopaedics, 100, 180-187


It looks as though I'm near the end, folks!  There's only two on the
list that don't apply to me, but I'm working on them...

-- 
arb@comp.lancs.ac.uk
Newsgroups: alt.suicide.holiday
From: rath@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Subject: Re: Ten Commonalities of Suicide
Reply-To: rath@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Organization: Brandeis University
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 15:26:24 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.152531.9543@waikato.ac.nz>, jrdodd@waikato.ac.nz writes:
>Since when did sexist jokes come under "suicide" ?  However it does seem that
>there are some pretty depressed people out there,  so maybe this will help ease
>any feelings of lonesomeness.  YOU ARE NOT ALONE, yet that does not excuse one
>for dwelling on suicide ideation.  Instead it increases the importance of
>understanding and fighting what is essentially an 'abnormal' feeling (in that
>99.9% of human endeavour is aimed at survival).
>
>In his book "Definition of Suicide",  Schneidman puts together all the findings
>generally agreed upon in the medical/therapuetic world,  developing "The Ten
>Commonalities of Suicide":
>1.The common STIMULUS in suicide is unendurable psychological pain.
>2.The common STRESSOR in suicide is frustrated psychological needs.
>3.The common PURPOSE of suicide is to seek a solution.
>4.The common GOAL of suicide is cessation of consciousness.
>5.The common EMOTION in suicide is hopelessness/helplessness.
>6.The common INTERNAL ATTITUDE toward suicide is ambivilence.
>7.The common COGNITIVE STATE in suicide is constriction.
>8.The common INTERPERSONAL ACT of suicide is communication of intention.
>9.The common ACTION is suicide is eggression (escape).
>10.The common CONSISTENCY in suicide is with life-long coping patterns.
>
>Whad'ya'say?
>Jonathan.

THANK-YOU, MY GOD, I'M CURED...YIPPEEE I'M SO F**NG GRATEFUL...OH
THANK-YOU THANKYOU THANKYOU, ,OH HAVE YOU THOUGHT ABOUT HELPING
PEOPLE FOR A PROFESSION? I'M  *ABSOLUTELY SURE* YOU HAVE *FIXED*
US ALL...OH HOW CAN I EVER SHOW M....
				     A
				      A
					G
					 H
					  hhh
(falls into elevator shaft, rolls into street and is hitby a bus
andthen mugged and killed....)
rich
Newsgroups: alt.suicide.holiday
From: jbf1@ellis.uchicago.edu (James Bryan Fraser)
Subject: Re: Warning signs
Reply-To: jbf1@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 17:21:44 GMT

In article <1992Jul23.034645.19771@leland.Stanford.EDU> underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe) writes:
>In article <1992Jul22.221211.1128@comp.lancs.ac.uk> arb@comp.lancs.ac.uk
>(Andrew Brooks) writes:
>>...
>>  2. Sudden personality changes (withdrawal from family or friends;
>>apathy; moodiness; unexplained or unusually violent behaviour; unusual
>>neglect of personal appearance)
>
>I disagree with "unusually violent behavior".  I think that there
>is something to be said for suicide by an intelligent person,
>one who has been trained to achieve the faculties of higher intellect.
>An example is Socrates.
>
>It is entirely reasonable for an intelligent person to realize that
>life isn't worth living because there's nothing left to live for.
>Hence, he/she would quietly and unnoticeably exit this world.
>
>Isn't it possible that an intelligent person could just sit down
>one day, look at his life closely, and then come to the conclusion
>that there isn't anything worth living for?  Then, he/she would
>then do the logical thing of exiting this world--quietly and peacefully?

Quite possible, but that wasn't the case with Socrates.  He was
condemned to death, and chose to kill himself as his execution.
Just hoping to clear up some facts.

>>Loochtan, R.M. & Cole, R.M. (1991). Adolescent suicide in orthodontics:
>>result of a survey.  American Journal of Orthodontics and Dentofacial
>>Orthopaedics, 100, 180-187
>>


Jamie.

Newsgroups: alt.suicide.holiday
From: rath@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Subject: Re: Winter Depression?
Reply-To: rath@binah.cc.brandeis.edu
Organization: Brandeis University
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 13:47:46 GMT

In article <92211.015736U56503@uicvm.uic.edu>, U56503@uicvm.uic.edu (Brady Woodward) writes:
>In article <1992Jul28.150054.8334@linus.mitre.org>, sokay@cyclone.mitre.org
>(Stephen J. Okay) says:
>
>>As for SAD, I'm almost convinced that I am affected given the fact that
>>I happen to get horribly depressed during the fall and winter, esp. here in
>>Va. where its always so cold and dark and rainy during the winter. About the
>
>Same thing here in Chi.  I get out my lights usually about the second
					^^^^^
WHere might one find such lights, besides outside?
			--rich
			

>week in October, when I notice that I am losing interest in things that
>were interesting to me only a week or two earlier.  I expect that at
>higher longitudes this date is even sooner as there is less sun.
>
>>only good thing about winter is the snow that lets me ski. November and
>>February are particularily angstful and depressing months...
>
>Yup!  That is the truth.  There are some researchers here that I know
>who are working with people who have SAD badly.  They start their
>study each year (using negative ions for one group and full-spectrum
>light for the other group) in the middle of January.  There are also
>many other symptoms that go with SAD such as weight gain or loss and
>diminished sexual desire from what I have read on the subject; losing
>interest in activities is another, and an increase in negative thinking
>is yet another.  I find that things start to deteriorate in a very
>insidious fashion and before you know it you are staring at the tube
>and thinking that the world is totally hopeless.  I think if you
>are aware of this tendency you can work to counteract it more.
>
>Let us all make a vow to outlaw November and February from the
>calendar year.  :)))
>
>=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=Brady Woodward +=+ U56503@UICVM=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
>  SATAN to NEW-COMER: The trouble with you Chicago people is that you
>  think that you are the best people down here, whereas you are merely
>  the most mumerous. --Mark Twain  (All other thoughts are mine alone.)
>=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
Newsgroups: alt.suicide.holiday
From: underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe)
Subject: Re: Suicide Pacts
Organization: Miners for a Heart of Gold
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 19:16:51 GMT

In article <1992Jul24.095725.25729@decuk.uvo.dec.com> jf@decuk.uvo.dec.com (Jason Flowers) writes:
>
>
>
>	How come suicide is illegal???
>
>	More government stupidity???
>

Is suicide illegal in California?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Seikatsu no imi wa nan desu ka.            \|  |`      | Don't buy from Toyota;
Shitte itara oshiete kuremasen ka.          | -+-      | especially, don't buy
                                           /| / \      | from Capitol Toyota in
Copyright 1992.                                        | San Jose, California.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: borders@ms.uky.edu (Johnny Borders)
Newsgroups: alt.suicide.holiday
Subject: Re: Suicide Pacts
Date: 31 Jul 92 05:35:32 GMT
    <16831A70B.EUCLID@vmd.cso.uiuc.edu> 
    <AZATHOTH.92Jul27234123@lighthouse.caltech.edu> 
    <1992Jul30.072927.9965@eskimo.celestial.com>
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences

alpinist@eskimo.celestial.com (David Butler) writes:

>   If a psychotherapist decides that someone is a potential danger to
>themselves or others they can be locked up against their will.  If a family
>member thinks that you are a danger to yourself or others and can convince a
>psychiatrist that they are right you can be locked up against your will.
>This puts a lot of unconstitutional power into the hands of someone over the
>lives of others, but so far it hasn't been abused to the point that there is
>any sort of outcry over the practice (probably the majority of people locked
>up involuntarily are in some need of mental health care.)

Well now, that all depends.. More often then not, it depends on who's story
you believe (the patient is often never even asked or told a damn thing).
Sometimes those that helped committ the poor victim are exaggerating and/or
lying. For instance, I know a man that was locked away because they said he
was violent. Turns out that he struck a person down (beat them over the head
quite badly.. it was a relative) only AFTER that person had stabbed him in a
fit of rage. When the psychiatrist inquired about the gaping kitchen knife
wound, the family said that it was self-inflicted. I shit you not. And that's
just ONE story..
From: U56503@uicvm.uic.edu (Brady Woodward)
Newsgroups: alt.suicide.holiday
Subject: Re: Lurking (was RE: Winter Depression?)
Date: 30 Jul 92 23:19:56 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago

In article <1992Jul30.174542.10131@nntp.uoregon.edu>, jjcox@oregon.uoregon.edu
(Joshua Cox) says:

>If yall don't mind, I'm just going to follow your conversations here for a
>while.  Suicide is something I've always figured I would eventually do but    r
>neve
>*wanted* to, and apparently it is something none of you *want* to do either,
>so
>I like what you've been saying.

Yeah.  We're really all outcasts from alt.whine!  ;)))

>And I especially appreciate Brady's suggestion to use lights to help ease     r
>winte
>depression.  I had never really thought of my suicidal "cycles" as being
>season-related, but you folks may be on to something, there.  Many thanks.

Thanks too for letting me know it was helpful.  Makes me feel good inside.
Tune back in for a re-hash in October when we start getting cynical
and feeling life is not worth beans again.

>Sounds like you get pretty nasty come winter.  Hope none of you are paranoid,
>'cause I plan to lurk about for a while.

Wish we knew how big the Lurker Group was so we can order the right amount
of virtual tea and scones.  Feel free to lurk.  The paranoid people are
on alt.consipracy.  ;))))   If I were a lurker, I'd start to post in
the summer when the "old crowd" are still reasonably civilized and
buoyant.

Brady pours and offers The Lurkers a virtual cup of tea. . . .

Brady

=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=Brady Woodward +=+ U56503@UICVM=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
  SATAN to NEW-COMER: The trouble with you Chicago people is that you
  think that you are the best people down here, whereas you are merely
  the most mumerous. --Mark Twain  (All other thoughts are mine alone.)
=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
Newsgroups: alt.suicide.holiday
From: underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe)
Subject: Re: Warning signs
Organization: Miners for a Heart of Gold
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 19:31:02 GMT

In article <1992Jul23.172144.29326@midway.uchicago.edu> jbf1@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>In article <1992Jul23.034645.19771@leland.Stanford.EDU> underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe) writes:
>>In article <1992Jul22.221211.1128@comp.lancs.ac.uk> arb@comp.lancs.ac.uk
>>(Andrew Brooks) writes:
>>>...
>>>  2. Sudden personality changes (withdrawal from family or friends;
>>>apathy; moodiness; unexplained or unusually violent behaviour; unusual
>>>neglect of personal appearance)
>>
>>I disagree with "unusually violent behavior".  I think that there
>>is something to be said for suicide by an intelligent person,
>>one who has been trained to achieve the faculties of higher intellect.
>>An example is Socrates.
>>
>>It is entirely reasonable for an intelligent person to realize that
>>life isn't worth living because there's nothing left to live for.
>>Hence, he/she would quietly and unnoticeably exit this world.
>>
>>Isn't it possible that an intelligent person could just sit down
>>one day, look at his life closely, and then come to the conclusion
>>that there isn't anything worth living for?  Then, he/she would
>>then do the logical thing of exiting this world--quietly and peacefully?
>
>Quite possible, but that wasn't the case with Socrates.  He was
>condemned to death, and chose to kill himself as his execution.
>Just hoping to clear up some facts.

I apologize.  I should have prefaced my second paragraph with, "In
a somewhat different light but along similar lines of intelligent
reasoning, isn't it possible ..."

I know that Socrates was condemned to death, but he chose not to
fight the matter and proceeded to ingest the hemlock (?).
Socrates used his intelligence to reason that he should abide
by the death sentence because that would be consistent with his ideals.
(Wasn't Socrates also the one who said that the unexamined life
is not worth living?)

In a somewhat different light but along similar lines of intelligent
reasoning, a person today can use his intellect to determine
whether there is anything worth living for in his/her life.  If
there isn't and he/she chooses to depart from this world, then
we should respect their decision.  (We should respect what they've
done because _who_ _are_ _we_ to judge our neighbor's pain?)

>
>>>Loochtan, R.M. & Cole, R.M. (1991). Adolescent suicide in orthodontics:
>>>result of a survey.  American Journal of Orthodontics and Dentofacial
>>>Orthopaedics, 100, 180-187
>>>
>
>
>Jamie.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Seikatsu no imi wa nan desu ka.            \|  |`      | Don't buy from Toyota;
Shitte itara oshiete kuremasen ka.          | -+-      | especially, don't buy
                                           /| / \      | from Capitol Toyota in
Copyright 1992.                                        | San Jose, California.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.suicide.holiday
From: jon@MITRE.org (J. E. Shum)
Subject: Re: to a St.Olaf alumnus/a
Originator: jon@cyclone
Organization: The Corp
Distribution: na
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 21:14:02 GMT


In article <1992Jul30.194134.5584@news.stolaf.edu>, skhill@lars.acc.stolaf.edu (Sharon K Hill) writes:
> To the St.Olaf alumnus/alumna who wrote to the dean here after
> reading my post:  that really wasn't necessary.  I have enough
> trouble with that man without this added on.  Thanks for your
> concern, but wouldn't it maybe be better to contact me than him?
> 
> -sharon

To the St. Olaf alumnus/alumna referred to above:

Your action was morally reprehensible for a number of reasons: 

     1. You intervened in another individuals life and 
        decisions without permission.

     2. You did so behind said person's back.  

     3. And it would seem that you did so anonymously (perhaps the 
        worst of all).

If you have something to say about or to someone say it to them 
without hiding behind letters to the dean or whatever.  We've had 
enough of that sort of trash in the past.  I, for one, don't care 
to see it again.

DISCLAIMER: This message is my own idea.  I don't even know Ms. Hill.  
Direct flames at me. 
-- 
<jon@mitre.org>|--------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------| Libertarian Party  
  Andre Marrou    Nancy Lord for  | 1528 Pennsylvania Avenue SE  (202)543-1988
  for President   Vice-President  | Washington, DC 20003         (800)682-1776  
Newsgroups: alt.suicide.holiday
From: underdog@leland.Stanford.EDU (Dwight Joe)
Subject: Re: Suicide Pacts
Organization: Miners for a Heart of Gold
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 92 19:32:59 GMT

In article <1992Jul23.183433.11586@linus.mitre.org> lewis@aera8700.mitre.org
(Keith Lewis) writes:
>In article <14lnmdINNkto@agate.berkeley.edu>, morishig@jell-o.berkeley.edu 
>(Nina Morishige) writes:
>>Any comments would be welcome. I'd prefer e-mail as I find it kinda
>>difficult to discuss a lot of painful (for me) issues in a public forum.
>
>I don't find it difficult and I think this discussion should be open, so
>I'll post.  I read all my email, though.

The trouble with "open" posts is that there are immature jerks out there
who'll crosspost your stuff into completely unrelated newsgroups.  I've
had several Chinese jerks who've taken my posts from *.romance and *.dsp
and copied them verbatum into one of the *.culture groups.  *.dsp
is a technical newsgroup; none of them have anything to do with *.culture.
From the best that I can figure, this is supposed to be some kind of
retaliation by those Chinese twits to shut up my honest opinions.

Some twits just don't have any respect for appropriateness.  My opinion
of people from the aforementioned cultural group has been suitably
adjusted downward from it's already low level.

So, Ms. Morishige's caution is well-founded.  If you don't want your
opinions abused by twits, then don't post them.  Just send e-mail.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Seikatsu no imi wa nan desu ka.            \|  |`      | Don't buy from Toyota;
Shitte itara oshiete kuremasen ka.          | -+-      | especially, don't buy
                                           /| / \      | from Capitol Toyota in
Copyright 1992.                                        | San Jose, California.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.suicide.holiday