HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: harwood@umiacs.umd.edu (David Harwood)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Shalom and the Messiah
Date: 12 Dec 92 21:36:03 GMT
Organization: UMIACS, University of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742

In article <1992Dec11.173131.12656@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes:
[...]
>why can't Joe?  After all, once the messiah is here there will be world
>peace.  Jesus didn't do a very good job on that one and look at how
>many million people still think he's IT.  Just because people like Joe
>- against this particluar, apparently minor, criterion - doesn't mean
>he couldn't be IT, as well.
>-- 
\\\\\\
There is no peace with out desire and intention for peace. The Messiah
is for those who desire him, and brings them his peace, with a desire
and intention for peace - so he is called the Shalom of God. But not 
everyone wants His peace, but they prefer their own terms, and do not
answer God's "Shalom." (The Gospel refers to the sign of Jonah. But the
name means "a dove" - and in a world flooded with destruction, Noah
sent forth a dove - to see if the world receive it, as a sign of peace;
so God sends forth his Shalom to see who will receive it.)

The Gospel says that Jesus wept over Jerusalem, that they way of peace
they did not know, neither would they receive him. It is not a question
of the coming of the Messiah, to impose peace, but of the desire to 
receive him. A desire for peace.

D.H.
From: jlove@ivrit.ra.itd.umich.edu (Jack Love)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Almah SHmalma
Date: 14 Dec 1992 15:02:45 GMT
Organization: /usr/local/trn/lib/organization
NNTP-Posting-Host: ivrit.ra.itd.umich.edu

In article <LJMORLY.92Dec14164258@polaris.utu.fi> ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen) writes:
>You are in a wrong newsgroup, Jack. If you want to have nice endless 
>academic discussions, go find them elsewhere. Everyone who knows Yeshua
>has a direct relationship with God. Feel welcome to join the club !

Last I checked, these newsgroups were part of a public process. That's
why those of us who are more interested in Jewish topics can't keep
evangelicals out of scj. As I have made clear on a number of occasions,
I have no intent to question or disparage your beliefs. When the
issues are factual, I may occasionally attempt to make a contribution.
If you don't appreciate my remarks, then you have the same recourse
I have--you can add my name to your kill file.

Jack F. Love
From: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: What Did Judas Betray?
Date: 17 Dec 92 03:10:03 GMT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/18.0 - Midrash, Denver CO

To: jlove@ivrit.ra.itd.umich.edu

 JL> Date: 10 Dec 92 16:23:09 GMT
 JL> Organization: /usr/local/trn/lib/organization
 JL> Message-ID: <1g7qtdINN3lj@terminator.rs.itd.umich.edu>
 JL> Newsgroups: alt.messianic
 JL> 
 JL> In article <141419.2B2634D9@paranet.FIDONET.ORG>
 JL> Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson) writes: >TO:
 JL> jlove@ivrit.ra.itd.umich.edu >
 >     But see, that is where your part comes in :-)  I took the time

    Study whatever you want :-)
    I'm NOT a paid "missionary" etc...  I have a limited time to spend
    on such things to.  I try to measure however what I consider to be
    eternal, which what I am - mundane and temporal :-) (if you know
    what I mean Laverne... :-)

... 012 Think not that I am come to annul the Torah or the Prophets: 210    
--  
Bill Carlson - via ParaNet node 1:104/422
UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name
INTERNET: Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Subject: Re: Almah SHmalma
Organization: University of Turku
	<1gdsp9INN6l2@terminator.rs.itd.umich.edu>
	<LJMORLY.92Dec14164258@polaris.utu.fi>
	<1gi7mlINNp04@terminator.rs.itd.umich.edu>
Date: 14 Dec 92 18:47:03

In article <1gi7mlINNp04@terminator.rs.itd.umich.edu> jlove@ivrit.ra.itd.umich.edu (Jack Love) writes:
> In article <LJMORLY.92Dec14164258@polaris.utu.fi> ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen) writes:
> >You are in a wrong newsgroup, Jack. If you want to have nice endless 
> >academic discussions, go find them elsewhere. Everyone who knows Yeshua
> >has a direct relationship with God. Feel welcome to join the club !

> Last I checked, these newsgroups were part of a public process. That's
> why those of us who are more interested in Jewish topics can't keep
> evangelicals out of scj. As I have made clear on a number of occasions,
> I have no intent to question or disparage your beliefs. When the
> issues are factual, I may occasionally attempt to make a contribution.
> If you don't appreciate my remarks, then you have the same recourse
> I have--you can add my name to your kill file.

Well, I appreciate all reasonable remarks as long as no one has refuted
them. About using kill files -- that's not very wise if you want to know
what's going on...
 
> Jack F. Love

- Laura
--
"They will say of me, 'In the LORD alone are righteousness and
strength.' All who have raged against him will come to him and
be put to shame. But in the LORD all the descendants of Israel
will be found righteous and will exult."       Yeshaya 45:24-25

"Achen Ata El mistater Elohei Israel Moshia."  Yeshaya 45:15
From: harwood@umiacs.umd.edu (David Harwood)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Shem Tov Version Of Matthew
Date: 17 Dec 92 23:59:27 GMT
Organization: UMIACS, University of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742

In article <141511.2B301BC9@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson) writes:
>To: harwood@umiacs.umd.edu
>
> DH> Date: 11 Dec 92 04:43:07 GMT
> DH> Organization: UMIACS, University of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742
> DH> Message-ID: <62754@mimsy.umd.edu>
> DH> Newsgroups: alt.messianic
|>
|> DH|> In article <141420.2B2634D9@paranet.FIDONET.ORG|>
|> DH|> Bill.Carlson@p0.f18.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Bill Carlson) writes:\
|> DH|> [making a reference in reply about original language versions of
|> DH|> Matthew ...] |> John the talmid/disciple of Yeshua).  Second, we
|> DH|> have a LOT of |> very early manuscripts of Matthew in Hebrew.
|> DH|> Including the |>     Shem Tov in a form of 1st century Mishnaic-
|> DH|> Hebrew, and the Old \\\\\\\\\
|>
|> DH|> You referred to this Shem Tov version of Matthew previously, but I
|>
|>    What can I say...
|>         The Shem Tov Matthew has been discovered in the last 5 years.
|>    It is a 1st century version of Matthew in Mishnaic Hebrew.  Also
|>    is the Old Syriac #30 version of Matthew thur John, in Biblical
|>    Aramiac, from the 2nd century onward.  [Reff. by for example the
|>    New King James Version].  I have [with some reservation] offered
|>    these versions, (which are {other than this version} out of print)
|>    for sale in a BETA version, [the spelling needs correcting, but
|>    otherwise is complete], for $10.00 including shipping and handling.
|>    If anyone is interested, then can E-mail me.  Or there is a free-
|>    ware version I have made available to the public on MIDRASH:
|>    (303) 289-6864. {@ 9600 baud}.
|>
|>         Hopefully, this is not a profit making deal for me; as I've
|>         tried to make this material available for a LOW cost....
|>         (it cost me WAY OVER $100.00!}.  And I've spent 3 years, and
|>         100's of my man-hours to make this available to the public!
|>
\\\\\\\

I appreciate your effort. I was actually wanting to get an scholarly
review (reference to a couple of journal articles, if possible - there
should be some for such a discovery). I could ask a friend who is an
academic Biblical scholar (of several ancient languages, besides Biblical
Hebrew); may be has heard. I will send him email to see what he says.
But maybe you could give me some pointers too.

David H.

Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen)
Subject: Re: Almah SHmalma
Organization: University of Turku
	<1gdsp9INN6l2@terminator.rs.itd.umich.edu>
Date: 14 Dec 92 16:42:58

In article <1gdsp9INN6l2@terminator.rs.itd.umich.edu> jlove@ivrit.ra.itd.umich.edu (Jack Love) writes:
> In article <921210084112.28801cab@ALF.CS.HH.AB.COM> ** Sender Unknown ** writes:
> >
> > I've seen so much information go past my CRT that I'm going into overload.
> > We have heard from scholars, and experts who had no "religious bias" and
> > rabbis who translated, and the scoundrels who altered the original texts.
> >
> > In prayer, I asked the Lord for a word on this topic. 

> Since you have a direct channel to God, I guess you don't really
> need to discuss anything with scholars, lay people, rabbis, priests
> or anyone else. Congratulations! But for the rest of us who are not
> so blessed, we may need to keep discussing these things. Since
> you are so disturbed by the material crossing your terminal,
> I suggest you add the subject to your "kill" file. That way, 
> you won't need to read any more.

You are in a wrong newsgroup, Jack. If you want to have nice endless 
academic discussions, go find them elsewhere. Everyone who knows Yeshua
has a direct relationship with God. Feel welcome to join the club !

> Jack F. Love

- Laura
--
"They will say of me, 'In the LORD alone are righteousness and
strength.' All who have raged against him will come to him and
be put to shame. But in the LORD all the descendants of Israel
will be found righteous and will exult."       Yeshaya 45:24-25

"Achen Ata El mistater Elohei Israel Moshia."  Yeshaya 45:15
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: jlove@ivrit.ra.itd.umich.edu (Jack Love)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Almah SHmalma
Date: 12 Dec 1992 23:31:53 GMT
Organization: /usr/local/trn/lib/organization
NNTP-Posting-Host: ivrit.ra.itd.umich.edu

In article <921210084112.28801cab@ALF.CS.HH.AB.COM> ** Sender Unknown ** writes:
>
> I've seen so much information go past my CRT that I'm going into overload.
> We have heard from scholars, and experts who had no "religious bias" and
> rabbis who translated, and the scoundrels who altered the original texts.
>
> In prayer, I asked the Lord for a word on this topic. 

Since you have a direct channel to God, I guess you don't really
need to discuss anything with scholars, lay people, rabbis, priests
or anyone else. Congratulations! But for the rest of us who are not
so blessed, we may need to keep discussing these things. Since
you are so disturbed by the material crossing your terminal,
I suggest you add the subject to your "kill" file. That way, 
you won't need to read any more.

Jack F. Love
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: billg@bony1.bony.com (Bill Gripp)
Subject: Re: What did Judas betray?
Organization: LA&W RR
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 14:14:58 GMT

In article <LJMORLY.92Dec14163250@polaris.utu.fi> ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen) writes:
>In article <GERRY.92Dec12124404@onion.cmu.edu> gerry@cmu.edu (Gerry Roston) writes:
>> Yawn.. not this again.  Look, if someone claims to be a xian and acts
>> in a manner that is supposedly the xian manner, who is to say that
>> that action is un-xian?  ANother xian.  But what if the first xian
>> says the second is not really an xian?  
>
>> Look, it's simple.  If an xian performs an act and says its an xian
>> act, that's what xianity is, whether other xians like it or not.
>
>Thanks. Now just replace the word "xian" with the word 'Jew', and
>"xianity" with 'Judaism'. As to Christianity/Biblical Judaism, it's 
>the Bible that says what it really is, not other people.


This reminds me.  A while back when I was discussing MJ via email, I was
told, "Let the JEWS decide who the Jews are."  One question, who decides
who the JEWS are who decide who the Jews are? (upper case for clarity).

Sort of like recursion without a limiting case.
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: What did Judas betray?
From: emiddlec@mora.gac.edu (Eric Middlecamp)
Date: 15 Dec 92 00:04:03 -0600

In article <GERRY.92Dec12124404@onion.cmu.edu>  writes:
>In article <1992Dec11.132505.165352@dstos3.dsto.gov.au> bennett@dstos3.dsto.gov.au writes:
>
>   Do you REALLY believe that ?  You are falling for the common mistake of
>   judging Christianity not by its principles, but by the actions of those who
>   claim to be Christians.  There are those who generally follow the teachings of
>   Christ and fail, and there are those who deliberately ignore the Christ's
>   teachings but claim to be Christians anyway.  
>
>Yawn.. not this again.  Look, if someone claims to be a xian and acts
>in a manner that is supposedly the xian manner, who is to say that
>that action is un-xian?  ANother xian.  But what if the first xian
>says the second is not really an xian?  
>
>Look, it's simple.  If an xian performs an act and says its an xian
>act, that's what xianity is, whether other xians like it or not.
>
>--
>Gerry Roston (gerry@cmu.edu)    | Some Christians pretend that Christianity

Why isn't it just a *part* of what xianity is? You would both be right..
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: dany@irvine.com (rorshach)
Subject: Re: Shalom and the Messiah
Organization: Irvine Compiler Corp., Irvine, California, USA
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 02:55:49 GMT

cohen@quark.com writes:

> Jews believe that once the Messiah comes "nation shall not lift up sword
> against nation, and shall not learn war anymore."  Until that happens
> (regardles of the reasons it hasn't happened), the Messiah has not arrived.

Is there a reference for this?  (And also: is there more scripture
that refers to the Messiah and world peace?)  It seems that this would
be an important criteria.

Thanks.
From: pauld@sdd.hp.com (Paul Dillinger)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Why Jews Hate Proselytizing
Date: 18 Dec 1992 14:40:30 -0800
Organization: Hewlett Packard, San Diego Division
NNTP-Posting-Host: hpsdl102.sdd.hp.com

In article  <1gbgljINN8en@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>
 bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman) writes:
 
>    There have been various recent efforts to link Christianity to 
> Judaism. 

The Christianity described in the NT is linked to the Judaism of that
day because the original individuals were Jewish. The Gospel was not
presented nor was it received initially as a departure from Judaism.
One particular sect, the Pharasee's, resisted it. I think what your
objection points out is that there certainly is a lack of a link between
today's Christianity and today's Judaism.

IMO, the current divergence between Judaism and Christianity stems from
several factors which caused Christianity to change it's practices:

    1. Christianity forsaking it's Jewish heritage
    2. The church being dominated by Gentile culture
    3. The church becoming apostate long before the Dark Ages
    4. The church's lack of understanding that the birth of Christianity
         did not mean God had forsaken His people.

These factors led to the persecution of the Jews by Christians.

Historical events have also altered the nature of Judaism, such as the
destruction of the temple and the dispersion of the Jewish people.

My own feeling is that Christianity never should have been separated
from Judaism, at that Judaism today should have been composed of ocrn,
where ocrn= Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, and Notzri.

> [ deletions]
>
> These efforts prove that those who do this know little or nothing
> about Judaism.

I agree that most Christians have very little knowledge or appreciation
of Jewish culture and Judaism. I personally would like to see this
reversed. In addition, I feel that present day Judaism also
misunderstands Christianity somewhat. As I read posts on this net, I
feel some of the comments about Christianity do not really apply.

>  [ more deletions ]
> 
>    I hope that this is not regarded as judgement of Christianity, 
> for it is not.  

I can see this is so.

> Please consider this as simply an explanation why 
> Christianity can never find common ground with Judaism.

I think it can, but not today. From my understanding of the scriptures,
sometime in the future, Christianity and Judaism will find common
ground. I believe it will occur in the midst of the earth's darkest
hour, yet to come, during a time on intense persecution and that the
author of this finding of common ground will be God himself, who will
give us both understanding.

>  It is my hope that this will shed light on why Jews are so deeply
>  offended by, and resentful of, Christian proselytizing.

Many Christians are deeply sensitive to the offensive nature of
Christian proselytizing.  Jesus himself complained about this very thing
in the NT (Matt 23:15).


-
  Paul       Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another:
Dillinger                                                    Mal 3:16a
-
From: pauld@sdd.hp.com (Paul Dillinger)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: "Biblical" Christianity
Date: 18 Dec 1992 16:55:22 -0800
Organization: Hewlett Packard, San Diego Division
NNTP-Posting-Host: hpsdl102.sdd.hp.com

In article  <9212141406.AA11043@aplpy.jhuapl.edu> 
 levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene) writes:


> I've seen Harvey Smith and Bruce Tiffany use these terms, but
> I still haven't seen them defined.  Harvey, would you please
> favor us all with a little more information?
> 
> 
> - What is Biblical Christianity?
> 
> - What is Biblical Judaism?

Not really being an expert on these terms, I'd like to perhaps state the
obvious: 

Biblical Christianity is the Christianity which derives it's authority
from the Bible.

Biblical Judaism is the Judaism which derives it's authority from the
Bible.

> - Which groups today practice Biblical Christianity?
> 
> - Which groups today practice non-Biblical Christianity?
> 
> - Which groups today practice Biblical Judaism?
> 
> - Which groups today practice non-Biblical Judaism?

A little too black and white. I think most groups practice their
religion based upon their best understanding, which leads them into
beliefs and practices. The degree to which their beliefs and practices
are reflected in the Bible might vary. I think any non-Biblical version
of either Christianity or Judaism would mean that the main source of
authority is no longer the Bible.
 
> 
> These terms would be much easier to understand if you'd
> provide some concrete examples of the above.  For example,
> where would the following fit?
> 
> Jews: Reform, Orthodox, Reconstructionist, Conservative,
>       Chassidic, Secular Zionist, Ethiopian ...
> 
> Christians: Episcopalian, Anglican, Latter-Day Saints, Assemblies of
>             God, Seventh-Day Adventist, UMJC, Calvinist,
>             Roman Catholic, Jews for Jesus, Eastern Catholic,
>             Slavic Orthodox, Lutheran, Baptist, Liberation Theology,
>             Christian Scientist, Maronite, Unitarian, Presbyterian,
>             Amish, Quaker, Mennonite, Nat'l Council of Churches, ... 

One suggestion might be to learn the tenets of Biblical Christianity.
The New Testament is quite short. Then it should be easier to
distinguish between the Christian groups you have listed.

In Christianity both the T'nach and the New Testament are included in
the Bible. The resulting set of scriptures is viewed as one, with both
portions of equal authority.

Does Judiasm do the same with the T'nach and the Talmud?  Or, does one
have authority above the other?


-
  Paul       Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another:
Dillinger                                                    Mal 3:16a
-
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: billg@bony1.bony.com (Bill Gripp)
Subject: Re: "Biblical" Christianity
Organization: LA&W RR
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 03:09:10 GMT

In article <9212141406.AA11043@aplpy.jhuapl.edu> levene@aplpy.jhuapl.edu (Robert A. Levene) writes:

>Christians: Episcopalian, Anglican, Latter-Day Saints, Assemblies of
>            God, Seventh-Day Adventist, UMJC, Calvinist,
>            Roman Catholic, Jews for Jesus, Eastern Catholic,
>            Slavic Orthodox, Lutheran, Baptist, Liberation Theology,
>            Christian Scientist, Maronite, Unitarian, Presbyterian,
>            Amish, Quaker, Mennonite, Nat'l Council of Churches, ... 

You left out The Church of the Nazarene.  =B^)


Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: mikkovv@mits.mdata.fi (Mikko V. Valjento)
Subject: Reincarnation in Christianity
Organization: Microdata Oy, Helsinki, Finland
Distribution: alt.messianic
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 17:29:05 GMT

Was the teaching of reincarnation part of Christianity ?
Are there any facts to support this ?

Peace to all living things!

 - mikkovv@mits.mdata.fi
    


Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: emc@doe.carleton.ca (Eli Chiprout)
Subject: Re: The Crucifixion Prophecy??
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 18:52:21 GMT

In <dfs.724093480@kehleyr> dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll) writes:

>In <1992Dec11.155744.28722@bas-a.bcc.ac.uk> ucakrvb@ucl.ac.uk (Vijay
>Bhuchar) writes:

>>A number of you have already asked me about the so called Crucifixion
>>prophecy.  It is Psalm 22.

>>The key line is : THEY HAVE PIERCED MY HANDS AND FEET

>Aha!  My friend Joe Shmo is then the messiah!  He's just had
>accupuncture!

No, you are wrong.  It is MY friend Sanjay Sharambagavital who was
forced to learn the ancient Indian art of walking on nails.

He is the Messiah!  Jews for Sharambagavital unite!

>--
>                     |         | "Step up and shake the hand
>David F. Skoll       | ||||||| |  Of someone you can't stand,
>|_ _ _  __   __ _ __ |  \\V//  |  You can tolerate him if you try..."
> / |  | |_|   | |  | |  __|__  |  -- Tom Lehrer, "National Brotherhood Week"
>_____|________________________________________________________________________


--
Eli Chiprout                 
Dept. of Electronics, 
Carleton University, Canada
emc@doe.carleton.ca                                     
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
From: abvax!ALF.CS.HH.AB.COM!BENNING
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Secular Jews
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 9:22:26 -0500 (EST)


 Someone told me today that the percentage of Secular Jews was over 60%
 world wide. 

 Can anyone verify this number?


--- Bruce Benning BENNING@ALF.CS.HH.AB.COM



Newsgroups: alt.messianic