HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bgdv706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Concessions
Date: 30 Sep 92 04:17:06 GMT
Organization: University of Texas @ Austin

In article <1992Sep24.080215.2891@cs.anu.edu.au>, bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:
> 
> In article 16776@das.harvard.edu, adam@sparkle.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:


		[...]


+>However, you are in a way, right.  The Palestinians have very little
+>to give in a concrete fashion (if you'll excuse the pun.)  However,
+>there is a list of "ideological" and moral concessions that could be
+>made, and could be made quickly and easily if they are in fact
+>interested in a permanent and just peace.
+>
+>1.  Amend the Covenant.  Article 19, and others.
> 
> Yes, subject to 2--
> 
+>2.  Clearly, plainly, and without retractions recognize Israel's right
+>to exist. 
> 
> Does Israel recognize that the Palestinian people exist?  (Not talking
> about a state.)  I don't remember any such recognition, but rather
> signs of a deliberate failure to recognise them (such as the insistence
> of joint Palestinian-Jordanian delegations).  



	From The Camp David Accords, Sept. 17, 1978:
	"Egypt, Israel, Jordan and the representatives of the _Palestinian
	people_ should participate in negotiations on the resolution of the 
	Palestinian problem in all its aspects...." (Framework, A.1., 
	emphsis added).

	Besides, the Israeli equivalent of the Palestinian covenant does 
	not negate the Palestinian existance or their right to exist. 

	Analogy seems to be improper.
	 


If not, why should these
> nonexistent people recognise a Jewish state?  Do the Palestinians deny
> the existence of the Jewish people?  Not to my knowledge.  It seems that
> Israel has some catching up to do in the matter of recognition.


	Catching up, yes. But not with the Palestinians' recognition
	of Israel.


> 
+>3.  Renounce the use of terror against any civilian, anywhere in the world.
> 
> Indeed, and of course actually stop doing it as well as just renounce it.
> Israel should stop doing it too.  
> 
+>4.  Stop the intifadah, and replace it with *non-violent* rallies.
+>Taking a lesson from Mahatma Ghandi would do much to allay the fears
+>of Israelis.
> 
> Yes, this would be a good thing to try.  Unfortunately, I doubt whether
> Israel would permit such rallies to remain nonviolent.  People who do
> nonviolent things like painting slogans or wearing Palestinian colours 
> tend to find themselves spending the night being unable to sit or stand.
> 
+>None of these steps, individually, or as a group, contain anything
+>that would weaken an honest attempt to reach a peace agreement.  Each
+>would be a useful and valid confidence building measure.
+>
+>Ok, any opinions on these ideas?
> 
> It might be a good idea for the Palestinians to try all of them.  
> Perhaps the world pressure that these actions would cause to be applied
> to Israel might lead to real movement in policy.


	Good ideas Adam. Good idea, Brandon. But, apparently the 
	Palestinians are not interested in the world pressure applied 
	on Israel...



+>Adam
> 
> Brendan.

Noam
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: raan@techunix.technion.ac.il (Ran Ever-Hadani)
Subject: Re: Arab Jews are ARABS
Organization: Technion, Israel Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 20:07:18 GMT

In <1992Oct1.190129.6648@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem) writes:

>In article <1992Oct1.131315.24213@das.harvard.edu>, adam@endor.uucp
>(Adam Shostack) writes:
>>
>>
>> In Iran, racism is institutionalized, and Jews must vote for Jewish
>> candidates, who get a number of seats proportional to the Jewish
>> population.

>Just a thought......If you call this institutionalized racism then how
>do you classify "affirmative action"?

Technically speaking, you may call AA institutionalized racism, even though
it is justified in my opinion.  Same goes for the Israeli repatriation
law ("the law of return") which relies on Jewish Matrilineal descent,
and for the Palestinian demand for repatriation, ("the right of return" 
as defined in the Palestinian National Covenant), which relies on
Palestinian patrilineal descent.

-- Ran
-- 
Withdrawal from the territories is in Israel's vital interest.  I will not 
feel any less at home in Shiloh or Bethlehem if I need a visa to go there.

                                   Moshe Dayan  (quoted from memory)
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:20661 soc.culture.arabic:4042
From: anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: Answer to Mr John
Date: 30 Sep 92 13:52:28 GMT
Article-I.D.: cs.BvE97G.70B.2
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

In article <nabeel.717819870@oracle.sce.carleton.ca> nabeel@sce.carleton.ca (Nabeel Ghuzlaan) writes:
>karr@ukc.ac.uk (K.A.R.Razzooqi) writes:
>> And what the iraqis did in KUWAIT is realy realy sick.
>
>   And what Kuwaitis are doing to Palestinians is very healthy. If
>there was a single man in the Kuwaiti government, they would not
>transfer Palestinian personal files to the Mosad. But if they
>were men in the first place, they would not run away like
>prostitutes hit on by the FBI.

So now Kuwait is transferring Palestinian personal files to the
Mossad.  How utterly paranoid.

As far as running away goes, I don't see Yasser Arafat or the
millions of other exiled Palestinians living west of the Jordan
River.

>
>   "You're jive talking ... no one believes what you say ..."
>   "Tell me lies ... tell me sweet BIG lies ..."

Why do I keep imagining a Saturday Night Live skit around this?

>
>>   SO PLEASE PLEASE  DO NOT USE ISLAM IN YOUR ARGUMENTS BECAUSE YOU
>>  DO NOT REPRESENT IT(YOU ARE FAR FROM IT).
>
>   Yes, I agree with you, only "Fadeelat ishshaykh Jabir" represents
>Islam, well, money talks!
>
>   By the way, crude oil does not run in the veins of all Kuwaitis.
>(Guys you have money, why don't you refine it?) There are some
>decent Kuwaitis albeit rare. There is one here at Carleton, I know
>if he was the common type, my decent Arab friends would not give
>him the time -- they talk with him. I am not going to lose hope for
>Kuwaiti (and Gulfan) people for the negligeble percentage of 99%
>of impurities. As the Prophet said, people are like minerals. Gold
>is rare and much more so where crude oil runs in the veins and the
>brains.

Let's see, if past exchanges with Anisa are any indication:
I'll respond to your crap about Kuwaitis being 99% impure 
with a tongue-in-cheek post about Palestinians.  You'll accuse
me of being a racist and bigot for saying such things.
I'll point out that it was you who was the racist and bigot
originally.  You'll quote me out of context...ad infinitum.
It just isn't worth it.

I'll just say that if being "pure" means agreeing with your or
Elghani's worldview and politics, I hope that Kuwaitis are 100% 
IMPURE.



-- 
Anwar Mohammed                FREE       Graduate Student
anwar+@cs.cmu.edu              THE       School of Computer Science
Voice: +1 412 268 3043     KUWAITI       Carnegie-Mellon University
Fax:   +1 412 681 5739        POWS       Pittsburgh, PA  15213-3890
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: A day in the life of a secret service
Date: 28 Sep 92 21:27:52 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <1992Sep28.043130.26816@cs.brown.edu> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
>Oh no not again!?

	He's baack!  :)
	
>#At the root of the story, according to the report, is a romantic
>#affair...
>
>Yigal, whi don't you switch to LA-ISHA? Much more juicy stories
>there (and pictures of pretty girls, too!).

	But would Mrs. Keren see it that way?  :-)

Anisa
From: jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Kozo Okamoto
Date: 30 Sep 92 13:45:56 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

=>> In article <1992Sep25.000719.18900@cs.brown.edu> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
=>>>
=>>>BTW, Lebanese sources indicate that IDF navigator Ron Arad is still 
=>>>alive. Maybe the Hizebolla could make a first step in a long way back
=>>>to the human race by saying if this is true or not. 

Who knows, stranger things have happened. Maybe even the Israelis might
consider being a bit nicer to Mordechai Vanunu, kept in a 9 by 6 cell
in solitary confinement for 6 years, 2 of which were in 24hr fluorescent
light. Naaah.


-- 
=======Jeremy Henderson========jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk===============
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Subject: Re: Arab Jews are ARABS
Reply-To: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Organization: North Carolina State University
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 13:57:08 GMT

In article <1992Oct1.022407.2397@cs.brown.edu>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny
Keren) writes:
> 
> 
> I understand that in Iran, Syria and other countries Jews are not allowed
                    ^^^^^^^                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> to vote and suffer many other restrictions. Is this true or not?
  ^^^^^^^
This is not true. Indeed, in Iran, Jews have guaranteed representation
in the Majlis (parliament). While this may not be democracy as it is
known in the U.S., you are quite wrong that Iranian Jews are not
permitted to vote or run for office.
 
>
> -Danny Keren.
> 

Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)
From: jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: What is a terrorist
Date: 28 Sep 92 12:26:59 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <14533@chalmers.se> d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell) writes:
=>
=>  I'll take this opportunity to push my own definitions:
=>
=>Military intentionally targets military: war
=>Military intentionally targets guerilla: counter-insurgency
=>Military intentionally targets civilians: warcrime
=>Guerilla intentionally targets military: guerilla-war
=>Guerilla intentionally targets guerilla: very dirty
=>Guerilla intentionally targets civilians: terrorism
=>Civilians intentionally targets military: becomes combattant (guerilla)
=>Civilians intentionally targets guerilla: becomes combattant

Leaving you with the problem of defining "guerrilla".

At the risk of repeating myself, I don't see any value in the word "terrorist".
It invariably comes along with a great deal of conservative baggage, and
conveys nothing except the mind-set of those who use it. A prime example of
this is the recent book by the half-wit Netanyahu.

=>Civilians intentionally targets civilians: 'normal' crimes
=>
=>  Depending on how you define unannounced hostile intrusions by unconventional
=>forces, the Swedish Navy is thus engaged in either war or counter-insurgency, 
=>not terrorism:)
=>
=>>Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu
=>
=>-bertil-
=>--
=>"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
=> strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
=> exercise for your kill-file."
=>"This is the famous Hasan B Mutlu-trigger, insert it in your .sig file today!"


-- 
=======Jeremy Henderson========jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk===============
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: arf@ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Re: ARF DEFENDS HIS HONOR
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 17:44:11 GMT
Organization: ddsw1.MCS.COM Contributor, Chicago, IL

In article <1992Sep24.195858.22255@ilx018.intel.com> bval@ilws61 (Valentine Bob) writes:
>
>
>
>The objective is to bring the plight of the Palestinians to public
>attention and boycotting Coors would send a very strong message and
>few muslims or jews would suffer much as a consequence.
>
>js
>Jack, if you stop drinking Coors in solidarity with the Palestinians
>I don't think you'll make a v"very strong" message, perhaps very
>confused.Like Saddam trying to link invasion and oppression
>of Kuwait with the Palestinians plight...
>
>And you make your own beer anyhow.


That is the only relevant statement in your response.  The fact that
I make my own beer is the ONLY reason my boycotting Coors would have
no effect.

I guarantee that if a successful boycott of Coors could be implemented, 
the "howling savages" in the media would come roaring out to call it
antisemitic, Jew hating preliminary steps to another holocaust.

That assumes of course, that solidarity with Palestinians was admitted to
be the basis of the boycott and not hatred of Jews.

js
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: steven@lanai.cs.ucla.edu (Steve Berson)
Subject: Re: Arab Jews are ARABS
Organization: UCLA, Computer Science Department
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 92 20:09:45 GMT

kshammou@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Khaled J Shammout) writes:

>In Article: 52184 of talk.politics.mideast, (Steve Berson) writes:

>>Apparently my earlier message wasn't clear.  I am aware that the Majlis
>>is elected.

>Give us a break.  You do not know anything; this is an old trick.  You just
>attack others and their arguments, come up with a bunch of lies and
>misleading information, and then hope no one will notice.  And if someone
>strikes back with the truth you resort to saying "Oh my message wasn't clear".

>Just quit it.  If you can not say the truth, do not say anything.

>Wa Salam
>-----------------
>Khaled Shammout

While I am touched that Mr. Perlman would attempt to aid me, there is
no need for anyone to come to my defense.  My postings (and those of
Mr. Shammout) speak for themselves.  The posting of mine from which
Mr. Shammout extracted his small excerpt is included below.
Steve


From news Mon Oct  5 20:35:56 1992
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: steven@maui.cs.ucla.edu (Steve Berson)
Subject: Re: Arab Jews are ARABS
Organization: UCLA, Computer Science Department
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 92 19:08:48 GMT

hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem) writes:

>In article <1992Oct1.204401.25301@cs.ucla.edu>, steven@maui.cs.ucla.edu
>(Steve Berson) writes:
>> The Majlis is, of course, not really a parliment, but rather a 
>> consultative body (similar to what the Emir of Kuwait has for
>> advice).  How was Ayatollah Ali Hoseini-Khamenei elected (or
>> the Emir of Kuwait, for that matter)?
>> Steve

>You have the situation a little reversed. The Majlis is elected, as is
>the President. Khamenei is not in the government per se. His position is
>somewhat comparable to the role of the Supreme Court in the U.S. (please
>note that Supreme Court justices are not elected). 

>Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)

Apparently my earlier message wasn't clear.  I am aware that the Majlis
is elected.  The problem is that it basically has no power, but rather
serves as a consultative body.  Rather power is vested in Khamenei (and
Rafsanjani) who either aren't elected or were elected with only token
opposition.  
Steve
-- 
=========================================================================
Steven Berson           UCLA Computer Science Department   (310) 825-3189
steven@cs.ucla.edu      Los Angeles, CA 90024-1596
=========================================================================
-- 
=========================================================================
Steven Berson           UCLA Computer Science Department   (310) 825-3189
steven@cs.ucla.edu      Los Angeles, CA 90024-1596
=========================================================================
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman)
Subject: Re: Alan Dershowitz on Bosnia
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 17:01:57 GMT

In article <1992Oct6.141540.10701@dscomsf.desy.de> Hallam@zeus02.desy.de writes:
>[Article in which Dershowitz tries to claim that equating the Holocaust with the
>Serbian "ethnic cleansing" attrocities is somehow anti-Jewish deleted]
>
>I think that Dershowitz is completely in opposition to the mainstream Jewish
>community in the UK. There have been many letters in the British press incuding
>one from the President of my Oxford College, Wolfson making precisely this
>comparison.
>
>Dershowitz is a lawyer whose concerns range from laudible charity cases to a
>unique brand of high class ambulance chasing. He has a dangerous tendency to
>equate opposition to his political views with anti semitism. Since his chief
>antagonists seem to be Yigal Arens and Noam Chomsky (Chomsky vs Dershowitz is
>the Cliche' middle east debate) this is a strange view indeed.

This is a red herring, pure and simple.  In no way does Dershowitz
equate opposition to his political views with anti-semitism.  Indeed, he
completely refutes that charge in many of his writings.  

-- 
"How sad to see/A model of decorum and tranquillity/become like any other sport
A battleground for rival ideologies to slug it out with glee." -Tim Rice,"Chess"
     Eric S. Perlman 				 <perlman@qso.colorado.edu> 
  Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy, University of Colorado, Boulder
From: jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Arab Jews are ARABS
Date: 6 Oct 92 13:05:57 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <BvM5nD.GBM@news.cso.uiuc.edu> eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
=>kshammou@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Khaled J Shammout) writes:
=>
=>>     Also, there are certain areas in Israel where non-Jews are not allowed,
=>>BY LAW, to live there.  Such as the village of CARMIEL, where non-Jews are not
=>>allowed to live there nor are they allowed TO OWN A BUSINESS (this is the so
=>>called Israeli DEMOCRACY !!!!).  Not only that, now that village have
=>>incorporated the land of three neighboring ARAB villages (in an effort to make
=>>the entire area PURE JEWISH) and are forcing the Arab inhabitants out of their
=>>villages.

=>Can you provide a source for this?

Glad to help, Ed:

"Report on Visit to Karmiel as Scholar in Residence", Prof. Raphael Jospe,
report to the American Zionist Federation, April 1, 1982.



-- 
===Jeremy Henderson===jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk=          Vommen
                                             Bladmagen
                                   Loepmagen
                        Naetmagen
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Arab Jews are ARABS
Date: 1 Oct 92 16:48:55 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <1992Oct1.135708.22342@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem) writes:
>In article <1992Oct1.022407.2397@cs.brown.edu>, dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny
>Keren) writes:
>> 
>> 
>> I understand that in Iran, Syria and other countries Jews are not allowed
>                    ^^^^^^^                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> to vote and suffer many other restrictions. Is this true or not?
>  ^^^^^^^
>This is not true. Indeed, in Iran, Jews have guaranteed representation
>in the Majlis (parliament). While this may not be democracy as it is
>known in the U.S., you are quite wrong that Iranian Jews are not
>permitted to vote or run for office.
> 

But you didn't mention Syria here.  I was just wondering what
your opinion was since there was a thread about how much Jews
suffer in Syria and have no rights whatsoever.  What is the
current talk now about Syrian Jews and their migration to
Israel?

Doesn't it sicken you to think that Assad is so close to the
U.S. - especially after the War - while being such a ruthless
dictator, primarily to the Muslim majority?

Your thoughts here, please.

Anisa

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: raan@techunix.technion.ac.il (Ran Ever-Hadani)
Subject: Re: A day in the life of a secret service
Organization: Technion, Israel Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 20:01:14 GMT

In <1992Sep30.172921.9114@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:

>In article <22485@venera.isi.edu> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:
>>Appeared in the Hebrew language Los Angeles paper "Hadshot L.A." (LA
>>News), September 24, 1992.  Article supplied by the Israeli daily
>>Hadashot.
>>
>>The choppy and confused nature of this news item is due, no doubt, to
>>the Israeli censor's unceasing efforts to preserve state security...

The issue was covered very extensively by Israeli media.  I would
assumed the "choppy and confused nature" of the item is due to
the nature of Hadashot LA.

>The story is barely newsworthy and seems to have been written in a
>style appropriate to it's intended audience.  The censors couldn't
>care less about articles better suited to the Irrational Inquirer...

It is true that, judging by the coverage of this event in Israeli
media, there were no censorship limitations on the story itself
(though the names of the people involved were not mentioned, as
the names of intelligence people is considered a state secret.  On
the other hand, I cannot see how anyone can call this story "barely
newsworthy".

-- Ran
-- 
Withdrawal from the territories is in Israel's vital interest.  I will not 
feel any less at home in Shiloh or Bethlehem if I need a visa to go there.

                                   Moshe Dayan  (quoted from memory)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: hernlem@che13.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Subject: Re: Hizbolah Attacjks SLA, UNFIL
Reply-To: hernlem@che13.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Organization: North Carolina State University
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 20:39:28 GMT

In article <1992Oct1.173357.28297@das.harvard.edu>, adam@endor.uucp
(Adam Shostack) writes:
> From Israel Line, Sept 30:
> 
> Hundreds of Hizbullah Terrorists Attack SLA Posts in South Lebanon
> 
> Today's HA'ARETZ reports on the Hizbullah attacks Monday on South
> Lebanese Army posts in the Security Zone. "Such an attack hasn't
> been in years: hundreds of Hizbullah people shelled 11-15 SLA
> posts," said a senior Israeli officer in the IDF's Northern
> Command. He added that fifty Hizbullah terrorists attacked the main
> SLA post near Rashef village. Two SLA soldiers were killed in the
> attack, including the commander of the post, with four others
> injured. The soldiers of the SLA posts responded by returning fire
> at the Hizbullah and then chasing after them. During the chase,
> four Hizbullah terrorists were killed and several injured. While
> retreating, a Hizbullah terrorist fired an Rocket Propelled Grenade
> at a UNIFIL post, trying to open a UNIFIL blockade. A UN observer
> from the Irish battalion was killed and another one injured.
> 
> 
> Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu
> 
> What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
> at all.  How true that is.      

Interesting how HA'ARETZ refers to Hezbollah fighters as "terrorists"
when they attack occupation forces but ignores the Israeli shelling of
Lebanese villages and loss of civilian life. 
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast