HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tj06+@andrew.cmu.edu (Thomas J. Joyce)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: O.R. on CD?
Date: 6 Sep 92 00:25:10 GMT
Organization: Administrative Systems, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA


Does anyone out there know if the O.R. (War of the Rebellion, Official
Records of the Union and Confederate Armies) is on CD? Isn't this an
128 volume set of books?

This might sound like a silly notion, but you be *surpised* to see
what types of things are going onto CDs now.

I have the accompanying atlas to O.R. I got it a B Dalton's for $5
about 6 years ago, before the current re-discovery of the War
began. I nearly choked when I saw this; I couldn't believe it
and thought it to be an error. I quietly picked the book off of
the "clearance" rack, payed for it, then left. What a steal.
It would be neat if this were on CD too.

Tom Joyce
Systems Manager
Carnegie-Mellon Administrative Systems
(usual disclaimers apply)
From: goose@camelot.bradley.edu (Bradley Riley)
Subject: Re: civil war connections
Organization: Bradley University
Distribution: usa
Date: 10 Sep 92 17:59:46 GMT

>In article <1992Sep3.203559.1454@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> gmclucki@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Gemma McLuckie) writes:
>>How many of you have direct connections to the Civil War through relatives?

Mines not very direct at all.  However, my mom's mom was a Lee.  Progressing
back to Robert E Lee's grandfather.  I suppose that makes General Lee my
g-g-g-uncle or something like that.  Like I said, not very direct.

--
and if i should falter
would you open your arms out to me
we can make love not war
and live at peace with our hearts
		A little respect                  Bradley A. Riley
	        Erasure-the innocents	 	  goose@camelot.bradley.edu

Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
From: goose@camelot.bradley.edu (Bradley Riley)
Subject: Re: Secession Crisis Lit (Re: ...secession of Virginia.)
Organization: Bradley University
Distribution: usa
Date: 13 Sep 92 20:49:54 GMT

In <18s3fsINN8lc@agate.berkeley.edu> turrell@violet.berkeley.edu (David Turrell) writes:

>In article <1992Sep8.162415.11132@news.iastate.edu>
>pholland@iastate.edu (Paul J Hollander) writes:

>>In article <1992Sep7.162105.1@ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu>
>>cowan@ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu (P. L. Cowan) writes:
>>
>>> (Deleted)
>>>
>>>I have previously bemoaned my inability to read Lincoln's mind during 
>>>the first half of 1861. Let me appeal again, if anyone knows of a good
>>>biography or history that treats this period in detail, I would be
>>>anxious to read it. Authors seem to want to rush through this period
>>>to get to the "good stuff".
>>
>>Second the request.  Foote gives the *impression* that Lincoln knew
>>exactly what he was doing in order to force the Confederates to start the 
>>shooting.  IMHO, everyone was stumbling in the dark, trying to make sense
>>of confused signals from the other side, half of which they didn't believe
>>were seriously meant.


>Richard N. Current's _Lincoln and the First Shot_ is both a vivid
>narrative and scholarly analysis of the decision to resupply, and not
>to surrender, Fort Sumter. It follows in the footsteps of Stampp's
>_And the War Came..._ in that it regards Lincoln's second inaugural as
>containing a succinct and true characterization of the crisis - that
>both sides preferred war to compromise - and that Lincoln himself was
>neither warmonger nor pacifist but felt, finally, that to compromise
>on Fort Sumter without, say, Virginia promising to dissolve its
>secession convention was futile appeasement.


Interesting.  About Lincoln not being warmonger not pacifist.  He did server
as a Captain, elected by his fellow men, in the elimnation of the Blackhawks
while he lived in Salem.  I found this out by serving in 86th ARCOM named
Blackhawks.  I'm also interested in comfirmation of this info since I live
in Lincoln, IL.

--
and if i should falter
would you open your arms out to me
we can make love not war
and live at peace with our hearts
		A little respect                  Bradley A. Riley
	        Erasure-the innocents	 	  goose@camelot.bradley.edu
From: HADCRJAM@admin.uh.edu (MILLER, JIMMY A.)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: Re: civil war connections
Date: 9 Sep 92 16:19:53 GMT
Organization: University of Houston Administrative Computing
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.20

In <8SEP199223083548@utkvx1.utk.edu> takoosma@utkvx1.utk.edu writes:

> Don't confuse why a war was fought with why a man fought in it.  The motives
> of the Confederate leaders had everything to do with slavery.  What makes
> soldiers fight can be any number of reasons unrelated to the war's objective:
> conscription, propaganda, honor, duty, fear of cowardice, reaction to the
> enemy's misdeeds.  Once the Union army started wrecking homes and farms, no
                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> more reason was needed.
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Toby Koosman

  Was it not after 1863 that looting and destruction by the Union armies became
SOP as opposed to isolated incidents (I recall Foote's description of the out-
rage of Southern officers by the Federal's treatment of Fredricksburg at that
battle.)?  By then, the Southern supply of new troops was already very small, 
and getting smaller.

  They may have belived it would happen on a wide scale, but to my knowldege
it did not actually start for quite some time after most of those who were 
going to join the army already had.

semper fi,

Jammer Jim Miller 
Texas A&M University '89 and '91
********************************************************************************
* Aggie in Cougarland -- I just work here.				       *
* Speak for my employers?  They don't even know I exist!		       *
*"Become one with the Student Billing System. *BE* the Student Billing System."*
*             *********************************************		       *
* "Power finds its way to those who take a stand.  Stand up, Ordinary Man."    *
*      ---Rik Emmet, Gil Moore, Mark Levine: Triumph 		               *
********************************************************************************


semper fi,

Jammer Jim Miller 
Texas A&M University '89 and '91
********************************************************************************
* Aggie in Cougarland -- I just work here.				       *
* Speak for my employers?  They don't even know I exist!		       *
*"Become one with the Student Billing System. *BE* the Student Billing System."*
*             *********************************************		       *
* "Power finds its way to those who take a stand.  Stand up, Ordinary Man."    *
*      ---Rik Emmet, Gil Moore, Mark Levine: Triumph 		               *
********************************************************************************
From: KARLIN@BNLCL6.BNL.GOV (P.L. Cowan)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: Kearny at Seven Pines (Poem: was Chantilly/Ox Hill)
Summary: Poem about Maj. Gen Phil Kearny
Keywords: Chantilly, Seven Pines, Fair Oaks, Phil Kearny
Date: 3 Sep 92 16:35:47 GMT
Reply-To: COWAN@ANL.GOV
Organization: BROOKHAVEN NATIONAL LABORATORY
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.23

In <1992Sep1.193106.8551@midway.uchicago.edu> cjt1@ellis.uchicago.edu writes:

: Just a reminder that today, September 1, is the 130th anniversary of
: the Battle of Chantilly.  Remember Kearny.
: --Chuck
: -- 

_Kearny at Seven Pines_
Edmund Clarence Stedman (1833-1908)

So that soldierly legend is still on its journey, -
  That story of Kearny who knew not to yield!
'Twas the day when with Jameson, fierce Berry , and Birney,
  Against twenty thousand he rallied the field.
Where the red volleys poured, where the clamor rose highest,
  Where the dead lay in clumps through the dwarf oak and pine,
Where the aim from the thicket was surest and nighest, -
  No charge like Phil Kearny's along the whole line.

When the battle went ill, and the bravest were solemn,
  Near the dark Seven Pines, where we still held our ground,
He rode down the length of the withering column,
  And his heart at our war-cry leapt up with a bound;
He snuffed, like his charger, the wind of the powder,-
  His sword waved us on and we answered the sign;
Loud our cheer as we rushed, but his laugh rang the louder.
  "There's the devil's own fun, boys, along the whole line!"

How he strode his brown steed! How we saw his blade brighten
  In the one hand still left, - and the reins in his teeth!
He laughed like a boy when the holidays heighten,
  But a soldier's glance shot from his visor beneath.
Up came the reserves to the mellay infernal,
  Asking where to go in, - through the clearing or pine?
"O, anywhere! Forward! 'Tis all the same, Colonel:
  You'll find lovely fighting along the whole line!"

Oh, evil the black shroud of night at Chantilly,
  That hid him from sight of his brave men and tried!
Foul, foul sped the bullet that clipped the white lily,
  The flower of our knighthood, the whole army's pride!
Yet we dream that he still, - in that shadowy region
  Where the dead form their ranks at the wan drummer's sign, -
Rides on, as of old, down the length of his legion,
  And the word still is "Forward!" along the whole line.

Reprinted from _Poems and Songs if the Civil War_ ed. Lois Hill (Fairfax
Press, New York, 1990).



---------------------------------------------------------------------------
P. L. Cowan     Please send replies, comments etc. (no flames thank you) to 
COWAN@ANL.GOV   (I'm posting this from a friend's account)

     "I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors; and I shall 
adopt new views so fast as they appear to be true views." 
  -  A. Lincoln, Letter to the Editor, New York Tribune, August 22, 1862

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
From: zursch@whizkid.wpd.sgi.com (Jeffrey B. Zurschmeide)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: Re: peculiar institutions
Date: 11 Sep 92 18:34:38 GMT
Reply-To: zursch@whizkid.wpd.sgi.com (Jeffrey B. Zurschmeide)
Organization: SGI TechPubs


But Steve, don't forget to figure in the costs of maintaining slaves into 
your economic analysis. Admittedly, these people were not housed very
well or treated to medical care, but there were some costs....humans must
be fed and clothed (albeit minimally.). 

One of the arguments for slavery used by apologists was to compare it to
the condition of miners and factory workers and to note that an injured
or feeble or old slave must still be maintained, while such a wage worker
could be let go with no further expense. 

Similarly, would the amount paid to an ex-slave working the field be less than 
the cost of maintaining a slave? Even after instituting such (horrible and abusive) 
things as a "plantation store" and the various rents that could be charged for
the quarters? 

JZ
From: jthoppers@OCTAVO
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: Re: Know any good books?
Date: 10 Sep 92 13:29:21 GMT
Reply-To: jthoppers@OCTAVO

Regarding Longstreet's "angst" in "The Killer Angels"; several of his 
childern had died of fevers during the winter of 61 or 62, all within the 
space of afew days. Contemporary accounts agree that after that he was 
a changed man, becoming introspective and remote.

JTHoppers
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
From: debk@sequent.com (Deborah Stewart)
Subject: Re: Know any good books?
Organization: Sequent Computer Systems Inc.
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 92 23:43:00 GMT

When I was in college I took a class on the Civil War.  the prof.  had
us read a novel called JUBILEE, by Margaret Walker.  It is definitely
fiction, along the lines of GWTW.  His point:  to see the difference
between the facts of the war that we would be studying and the way the
war has been fictionalized in books and movies.  it was quite an
interesting juxataposition.
I would also second the opinion re:  Catton--not fiction but very
readable for the "novice" Civil War buff.

On a completely different note:
I had a friend in college and also many of my husband's relatives from
North Carolina who insisted on referring to the war as The War Between
the States, as opposed to the Civil War.  They also got very upset at
any mention of the idea that "the United States has never lost a war".
(Please let's not get into issues of Korea and Vietnam :-) ) As my
southern connections are only through marriage, any thoughts?

I do enjoy reading this group--takes me back to my "intellectual
days" before I became "just a housewife"! :-)

Debbie Stewart
From: hall@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov (Philip Hall 283-4031)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: Re: REFRESHRe: Question concerning the secession of Virginia. '8p!lj
Date: 9 Sep 1992 17:26:24 GMT
Organization: McDonnell Douglas Space Systems Company

: I think the key to the decision of the upper south states was that they
: agreed that a right to secede existed.  
: Lincoln's call represented coercion of the lower south states,
: and the upper south wanted no part of that.
: 

Does anyone know what legal grounds, if any, were used by the
Union leaders to justify the use of force to re-assimilate the seceding
states into the Union??

Philip Hall
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
From: mar@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Maryann Riggs)
Subject: Davenport Reenactment (9/18-20/92)
Originator: mar@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 19:59:55 GMT

Is anybody going to Davenport?  We (my husband and I) are new at this and
any help will be greatly appreciated.  We've signed on with the 
Arkansas 16th, E company (I think).  Email responses to:
mar@csd4.csd.uwm.edu.

Thankyou, thankyou, thankyou.

Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
From: glhewitt@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Gary L. Hewitt)
Subject: Re: Celts vs English or ASW as seen by McWhiney & Jamieson
Originator: news@nimaster
Keywords: Celt English theory McWhiney
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 00:31:43 GMT

In article <1992Sep6.024823.19034@cs.tulane.edu> newcomb@navo.navy.mil (Don Newcomb) writes:
>I would like to know how our gentle and learned readers consider
>the theory of McWhiney & Jamieson regarding the causes and
>execution of the ACW. This theory can be best stated by this
[quote deleted

Grady McWhiney makes me anything but gentle.  Though he does seem to be
nice enough of a guy....

>Please also, let me know if you have read this book or other
>writings by the authors.

I'd say McWhiney's ideas about the "celtic" aspect of CSA military
strategy is, to be honest, full of it.  His other books that I've read
are "Cracker Culture" (co-written with Forrest McDonald) and
"Southerners and Other Americans," a collection of essays from the early
'70s.

He also has a fairly long article in the _American Historical Review_
from the mid-80s -- maybe 1985 or so.  It's about herding vs. farming,
and how the celtic southerners would rather run pigs than hoe corn.  And
finally an article in Agricultural History from around the same time,
saying how *easy* it was to farm, and how little labor it took to keep
up a few acres of corn -- thus being further proof to his ethnic origins
theory, that holds that since Celts were lazy drunkards, herding and a
little scratched-out corn fit well with their personalities.

Among other flashes of brilliance:  Romans writing about the British
campaigns in classical times noted that Celts put the heads of their
defeated enemies on pikes, and also were known to drink out of the
skulls of these same victims.  The same phenomena were thought to have
happened during the various wars against the Indians.  Therefore, by
deduction, southerners (who fought the Indians) were Celts.  Q.E.D.

BTW, the same kind of silly ethnologic reductionism is purveyed to much
better press in David Hackett Fisher's "Albion's Seed: Four British
Folkways in America."  But it still seems like bunk to me.

GARY
-- 
  ++====+========+==========+=======+===++
  ||    |    Gary| L. Hewitt|       |   ||  HELP!  I've been imprisoned
  || glh|ewitt@ph|oenix.prin|ceton.e|du ||  by my .signature!  HELP!
  ++====+========+==========+=======+===++
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa,alt.appalachian
From: goose@camelot.bradley.edu (Bradley Riley)
Subject: Re: civil war connections
Organization: Bradley University
Distribution: usa
Date: 10 Sep 92 18:05:55 GMT

In <Bu656J.Cxs@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes) writes:

>This doesn't do justice to the actual interview, but it does describe
>the essence of what Foote went on to say. Specifically, that, most of
>the CS army didn't care so much about slavery, they were fighting to
>protect family, property and country/state/region from being invaded and
>despoiled.

This is very true.  The succsession of the states of the south was not based
soley on slavery.  At the time, there was still massive fighting( non-physical) about the power of the government and the power of the states.  For example, 
Robert E Lee fought not for slavery but for his state, Virginia.  Most 
individuals were more patriotic to their state at the time.  And with the 
possibility of freeing slaves, their economy would have fallen and they thought
the government was out to GET THEM!!!

--
and if i should falter
would you open your arms out to me
we can make love not war
and live at peace with our hearts
		A little respect                  Bradley A. Riley
	        Erasure-the innocents	 	  goose@camelot.bradley.edu
From: cjt1@ellis.uchicago.edu (Charles Ten Brink)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: JLC
Date: 8 Sep 92 13:52:55 GMT
Reply-To: cjt1@midway.uchicago.edu
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations

General Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain, USA, was born this day in 1828.
--Chuck

-- 
D'Angelo Law Library         "The dogmas of the quiet past are
cjt1@midway.uchicago.edu      inadequate to the stormy present. . .
uclcjt1@uchimvs1              We must disenthrall ourselves. . ."
From: jthoppers@OCTAVO
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: Reenactment
Date: 10 Sep 92 18:14:17 GMT
Reply-To: jthoppers@OCTAVO

For those of you in North/Central California:
There will be a Reenactment event on Saturday, Sept. 12 and Sunday 
Sept. 13, in Nevada City, California. The event will be held in 
Pioneer Park. Living history demonstration will occur thruout both 
days and 'battles' will be fought at 12:30 & 3:30 on Saturday and 
10am on Sunday. A parade through Nevada City will follow on Sunday. 
This event is sponsored by the National Civil War Association; for 
more information please contact them at (408)927-7651.

JTHoppers
9th Va Cav., Co.B
NCWA
From: mancus@clover.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Keith Mancus)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: Re: Know any good books?
Date: 9 Sep 1992 20:22:06 GMT
Organization: nasa-jsc

In article <18lev5INNikd@cs.utexas.edu>, russw@cs.utexas.edu (Russ Williams) writes:
|> There are many alternate history type science fiction books, usually of
|> the "what if the south won" type.  These include Bring The Jubilee by
|> Ward Moore, Gray Victory by Robert Skimin, The Wild Blue and the Gray
|> by William Sanders...

  I read a short story in Analog a few years ago called "Avenging Angel".
CW buffs will realize that the CSA knew it needed an edge, and one way
to get it was through technology.  Hence the attempts to adapt the
Merrimac/Virginia, build the Davids, the Hunley, etc.  Well, in this story
a few scientist/engineer types went to Europe, gathered up the geniuses
of the day, and figured out how to build a short-range ballistic missile
(the "avenging angel" of the title).  It was fired on Washington not far
from the border, causing major destruction and killing Lincoln.  The
combination of the attack on the capital and the removal of the one man
holding back the Radical Republicans led to a bloodbath that made the
actual Reconstruction look like a tea party.
  Interesting idea...

-- 
| Keith Mancus    <mancus@sweetpea.jsc.nasa.gov>                         |
|                 N5WVR                                                  |
|  "If I owned Texas and I owned Hell, I'd rent out Texas and live       |
|  in Hell." -General Sheridan                                           |
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
From: M20614@mwvm.mitre.org (Hugh Pritchard)
Subject: Re: Poetic License (was Re: Reenactment)
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, McLean VA 22102
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 13:35:45 GMT

In article <14SEP199222262078@vxcrna.cern.ch>
casper@vxcrna.cern.ch (CASPER,DAVI./PPE) writes:
 
> In article <2925477496.6.p00098@mail.psi.net>, p00098@mail.psi.net (Jones M Muphy Jr) writes...
> >>For those of you in North/Central California:
> >>There will be a Reenactment event on Saturday, Sept. 12 and Sunday
> >>Sept. 13, in Nevada City, California.  [...]
>
> >Perhaps some Africans will be whipped and lynched, to add realism?
> >Jones
>
> Well ah, gee Jones, are you volunteering?
> Dave
 
Perhaps Jones' point is this:  Some people view ACW reenactments as simply
a chance to strut about and play at toy soldiers.  Jones would like people
to remember that the ACW wasn't just a series of exciting battles fought in
a vacuum, that the social and economic tides (no, I *DON'T* want to argue
just exactly what these were) that gave rise to the ACW should be
recognized as well.
 
Didn't Lee say something like, "It is well war is so terrible, else we
should grow too fond of it."  I think Jones is objecting to some people
becoming perhaps too fond of the "glory" of reenacting ACW battles.
 
**  Hugh Pritchard,  hapritch@mitre.org,  703/883-6616
From: cowan@ssrl01.slac.stanford.edu (P. L. Cowan)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: Juneteenth Day (was Re: Secession Crisis Lit)
Date: 12 Sep 92 17:54:16 GMT
Organization: SSRL, Stanford Synchrotron Radiation Lab

In article <1992Sep12.160939.654@leland.Stanford.EDU>, whale@leland.Stanford.EDU (Stephen Schmidt) writes:
> In article <18s3fsINN8lc@agate.berkeley.edu> turrell@violet.berkeley.edu (David Turrell) writes:
>>
>>A bit of trivia learned from the book: the Supreme Court has held that
>>the Civil War started on April 19, 1861, when Lincoln proclaimed the
>>blockade of Confederate ports. I suppose Johnson's May 10, 1865,
>>proclamation declaring a cessation of hostilities marked the end.
> 
> Kirby Smith held out until July in the Trans-Mississippi. (I don't know 
> if it's that he held out or just that it took two months to get the
> news of Lee's surrender to him.)
> I suspect that ruling came up in regards to some question over who could
> collect a pension.
> -- 
> Steve Schmidt			<><		   whale@leland.stanford.edu
> 

This is off the subject, but I have wondered about Juneteenth Day. 
Presumably the slaves in Texas (many of who had been moved there from
other states to "protect" them from the Union Army) were notitified that 
they were emancipated on June 19, 1865, but this date does not seem to 
coincide with any surrender of CSA forces (in general or specifially in 
Texas). Can somebody provide some background on Juneteenth Day? 

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
P. L. Cowan     Please send replies, comments etc. (no flames thank you) to 
COWAN@ANL.GOV  (I'm posting from my own account, but not the preferred one)
        "Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is a War Room!"
from _Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb_
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: zursch@whizkid.wpd.sgi.com (Captain Coffee)
Newsgroups: alt.war.civil.usa
Subject: My Civil War Ancestors
Date: 9 Sep 92 16:58:35 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc., Mountain View, CA