From: arnsenad@me.utoronto.ca (Senad Arnautovic)
Subject: Re: who was in 'power' in BH (was: Re: Call It An
Organisation: U of Toronto, Dept. of Mechanical Engineering
Organization: UofT Mechanical Engineering
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 20:44:56 GMT

stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:

>This was not nice to say.  I understand your feelings. Both of us 
>know that "flower without roots is not going to survive."

If you by above "flowers" mean Bosnian Muslims, they will survive
both literally and as a nation in a country thay are fighting in.
True, the level of aggression, destruction of the BH and
enormous genocide being conducted against non-Serbs, in particular
against Bosnian Muslims (for the second time in this century)
give rise to concerns that they will be wiped out in a literal sense.
But, that is just a wishfull thinking of Serbian fascists.
Those Bosnians that survive by being forced out of their
great fatherland will one day return (we'll see how) to claim their land.
I did not say when, but Milan be sure they will return for a very
simple reason: they have no other place to go, Bosnia is
their country, they are rooted there.
So, regardless how hard the genocidal "raker" is trying to delete
the "flowers", some seeds will survive to tell next generation of
"flowers" where the "raker is coming from. This is not a one-year
war.
And remember, they way you treat other people, the other people will
treat you.

> I accept
>that my cultural roots also go to the Ottoman empire, I find
>that my as ( Serbian ) advantage. Thus I find the whole situation 
>in Bosnia also from the cultural point of view, i.e. the erasion of 
>important part of my cultural background painful, but forces on
>the Serbian side that prevailed, and are for complete detachment 
>from everything that has to do with Ottomans, including calling
>Sarajevo Vrhbosne again,

I don't agree with you when you call "Serbian side". Truly Bosnian
Serbs who care for Bosnia and its multi-ethnic fabric that enriches
each ethnic group, are fighting on the BH government side. It is
a Serbian fascist propaganda telling the world lies that "Serbian
people in BH want a separate state to be later joined to Greater
Serbia.
BTW, speaking of the name-conversion, will Mr. Karadzic
the leader of nationalistic Serbs in BH, change his name to
say, Crnkovic. As you know, "kara" in Turkish means "black".
Will Serbian General Adzic, in Bosnian "Hadzic", from
someone of his predecessors who went to "hajj" (guess where?)
change his name?
Or, based on the example of the names of the most prominent
Serbian leaders can we lay claim THAT ALL SERBS IN BH ARE IN FACT
MUSLIMS or at least disguised Muslims.
If I use the same falsified arguments the Serbian fascists use
to justify their crimes against Bosnians, that would be quite
convincing case, wouldn't it Milan?
So, then "who actually is flower without roots"?

> prevailed because of the stupidity, forgeries 
>of the Muslim leaders.

It's again the same story: the victim is to be blamed to justify
your crimes. And "stupidity" you call an attempt to keep BH
united with equal rights (but sorry, no extra privilages say, in
police, Army etc) for all ethnic groups.

>  Your denial of your roots, and attempts to 
>hide behind figments of imagination ( or selective knowledge ) I find
>pathetic.  ( I did not mean to be this harsh, but you asked for this ).
>Just go and read the folk-songs of Bosnian or Hercegovinian Muslims,
>compare them to the folk-songs of Serbs and you might get impression what
>I am talking about. 

You deny the Bosnian Muslims the right to exist. You deny them the right
to live in BH. You claim they are Serbs. If they are Serbs, why
then Serbian fascist (Chetniks) are slaughtering the Bosnian Muslims?
Let's finish this discussion: Bosnian Muslims are NOT Serbs.


>So do you think that Bosnians were ever ethnically ("by race" or
>by "genes" to use this expressions, which I personally hate) different
>from Serbs ( or Croats )?  

The Bosnians are more different from Serbs than the Montenegrins.
And still you do not question that the Montenegrins are not
Serbs, do you?

>We might agree, that in future, if independent Bosnia survives,
>which I doubt, there might be people who would call them self 
>Bosnian for other reasons then geographical. Considering the
>much stronger forces in favour of decomposition of the land, and
>their lack of fear ( they have only contempt for) of "New World Order"
>we are going to have dispersed thousands of people talking and 
>dreaming of the un-existing nation, un-existing land.

If BH breaks up, meaning the internationally recognized boundaries
of BH are changed, then there is no reason why the internationally
recognized boundaries of Serbia cannot be changed. Why, for example
Vojvodina should stay in Serbia, why Kosovo, why Sandzak?
Maybe one day some other forces could become so strong
(also without regard for the "New World Order")
to get Serbia to its historical boundaries: the Belgrade pashaluk,
with the Danube river as its nothern boundary and Belgrade being
border town and stretching deep south to Nis.
Who knows...

>  While
>people living there would call themselves Serbs or Croats.  Sad,
>but realistic.  And you have to thank to Alija's misjudgements.
>You can not make Bosnia without consent of Orthodox Serbs or 
>Muslims.  Croats are easy to skip, because of their concentration in
>only certain parts.

Bosnian Croats cannot be skipped. They also live all over BH and 
they are BH. We need the talents and love of all people. BH earned
its reputation over the centuries as the place where all
ethnic groups can co-exist and part of the credit goes to Bosnian
Croats.

>Explained many times.  Nations in Yugoslavia had sovereignity, not
>national minorities.  For the sake of record, I do believe that something
>has to be done on Kosovo and Metohija.

Dont't worry. Your friends in Serbia who share your thoughts
are already preparing for a new genocide against Albanians.
So something will be done soon.

>>>>However, I think Mr. Izetbegovic, in his role as the president
>>>>of the Slavic Mulsim party, does not represent all Bosnians of
>>>>islamic confession and atheists. I do recognise  him as the President
>>>>of Rep. of BH, representing all Bosnians.
>>
>>>Sure, you are Muslim, it is normal that you think like that.  
>>>Serbs do not, which is also normal.
>>
>>I agree with you that it is quite normal for Serbs to show
>>no regard to the democratically elected BH president.

>First he was elected as representative of Muslims to presidency.
>Second, he is only one of the seven members, and has equal powers
>as Koljevic&Plavic...  Third, Izetbegovic did not give the most
>of votes, Fikret Abdic, much more moderate, and more acceptable to 
>Serbs, did.

Did anybody ask non-Serbs how moderate/liberal/fundamentalist/hard-line
etc Mr. Koljevic and Miss Plavsic are?
That's democracy Serbian-style: others have to choose the representatives
that are OK to 31% Serbs. To be sarcastic, the best from nationalistic
Serbian point of view would be if the non-Serbs in BH can choose
some Serbs for their representations.
The presidency is a rotating body - this year it is Mr. Izetbegovic
next year somebody else, most likely non-Muslim.

>  With the withdrawal of Serbs from presidency, because of the
>disrespect for consensus, Alija does not represent Serbs any more.

Another misrepresentation. Mr. Karadzic had orders from Mr. Milosevic
to start the war in BH long before the Serbian withdrawal from
presidency.
If I recall correctly, a Serbian representative, Mr. Nenad Kecmanovic
left in June or July of this year.

>>It only shows how the Serbs have a very long way to go
>>before they embrace democracy and culture.
>>That's simbolic significance of the Drina river, the boundary between
>>BH and Serbia, between forward and backward looking ways.

>Sure, ask Slovenian Minister Tanzig what he thinks about Bosnians, 
>no matter of their creed. 

Sure, ask a Swiss, or to that matter a Briton where the East begins.
Also, ask a true Serbian (that is a Serb from Sumadija) what he
thinks about Bosnian Serbs. That's what I don't understand:
Why do Serbs from the boundary regions (Croatia and BH) have to
prove that they are greater Serbs than Serbians even though
the Serbians are looking down on them as culturally inferior?

>And after Dr. Muhamed Filipovic - Tunja wrote 
>that Andric should not be read by Muslims, for the way he represented them.

It that the same Dr. Filipovic of MBO who negotiated a deal
with Serbs on behalf of MBO (in Sept-Oct 1991)
by which "Serbs and Muslims in BH will not attack each other"?

>You missed to read Kusturica's interview.

I read it in the form you've posted it on the net.

>I find it interesting, and am willing to listen to your explanations.
>Three persons the most connected to Bosnia, two of them the only 
>Bosnians highly regarded in the Western civilisation - Kusturica, 
>Andric and Selimovic, not one of them accepts to be "Bosnian." Two 
>of them declared themselves as Serbs ( Andric, although some Croats 
>claim that he is Croat, because Travnik is 90+% Croatian, Selimovic ),
>one as a Yugoslav, descendant of Orthodox family from Hercegovina. The
>last one considers Alija a sick men, and Islamic radical. 

If Mr. Andric declared himself as Serb, that is his right. Surely
it was much easier (if not the only way) to get into
diplomatic cadre of the pre-WWII
Yugoslavia if you are a Serb. The point is I regard him
a part of Bosnian heritage since 85% of his topics are dealing
with Bosnian people and their lives. If others claim him as a part of
their culture that's fine with me as long they don't deny
my rights. As a matter of fact, such great people are part of
world culture.

On Selimovic and Kusturica, I'll post a separate article.

>Milan N. Stojanovic

Senad H. Arnautovic

>P.S. Discussion about who was "Dragon of Bosnia," what was he 

did not get it on my site.