HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: varnavas@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (varnavas constantine)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history
Subject: Re: The massacre of Turkish Cypriots in Paphos and Famagusta.
Date: 11 Sep 92 17:29:17 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic) writes:

>Hold on, "Car*", hold on. Article IV of the 1960 Tripartite Treaty 
>of Guarantee among Great Britain, Turkiye, and Greece gave Turkiye 
>the right to intervene if the 1960 agreement was violated. When 
>Greece invaded the island on July 15, 1974, and then tried to annex 
>it, the Turkish government acted to establish an area in northern 
>Cyprus where Turkish Cypriots could live free of fear.

Hold on Serdar!  Article II of the Treaty states that:

   Article II

   Greece, Turkey, and the United Kingdom, taking note of the undertakings
   of the Republic of Cyprus set out in Article I of the present Treaty,
   recognize and guarantee the independence, territorial integrity, and
   security of the Republic of Cyprus, and also the state of affairs
   established by the Basic Articles of its Constitution.
   Greece, Turkey, and the United Kingdom likewise undertake to prohibit,
   so far as concerns them, any activity aimed at promoting, directly or
   indirectly, either union of Cyprus with any other state or partition of
   the Island.

First of all, how was the coup against the Makarios government on July 15
an "invasion by Greece".  Did Greek forces landed on the island and forcefully
occupied it or annexed it.  A coup is one thing and an invasion is another.
It is ironic, howver, that if you substitute "Greece" with "Turkey" and "July
15" with "July 20", your sentence would be closer to reality.  It is also
very ironic that Turkey refers to the Treaty of Guarantees to legitimize their
invasion on Cyprus when the invasion had as a direct result the partition of
the Island, clearly a direct violation of the Treaty.


>In 1974, on the Island of Cyprus, Turks prevented Rightist Greek 
>revolutionaries from toppling the Cypriot Makarios government.

Decide here.  Did Greece invade Cyprus or did they topple the Makarios govern-
ment.  Your two arguments are contradictory.

>For the record, Turkiye did not invade Cyprus.

So, Tyrkey did not invade Cyprus and Greece did.  Hm!  This is an interesting
interpretation!  Thank God the rest of the world does not see things this
way.  I am refering to the numerous U.N resolutions condemning the Turkish
invasion.

>                                                Turkiye fulfilled its 
>lawful obligation, as Greece and Britain could also have done, to 
>protect the integrity of Cyprus, which had fallen into the hands of 
>the military junta then ruling Greece.

Turkey's lawful obligation was to protect the integrity of Cyprus - not to
divide it.  The direct result of the Turkish invasion ("intervention",
"peace operation" or whatever you want to call it) was to divide the island.
Explain now how Turkey fulfilled her lawful obligations by dividing Cyprus.

>Serdar Argic

-- 
Constantinos Varnavas
University of Illinois
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: gene@cs.bu.edu (Gene Itkis)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Who are the Occupiers?
Date: 9 Sep 92 19:01:55 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Department, Boston University, Boston, MA, USA
Originator: gene@csd

In article <1992Sep8.235635.708@dscomsf.desy.de> Hallam@zeus02.desy.de writes:
>The claim that any culture has the right to raise itself to the status of law
>is completely false. That has been the root of political oppression since 
>Soccrates was executed for opposing the cultural values of the state. There 
>are no nations and there are no states, only individuals.

First Phill puts his foot in his mouth ascribing charisma to Brezhnev (well, to
be fair, he did not say that - he simply made a more sweeping statement that a
comunist dictatorship cannot survive without a charismatic leader). Now, he
decided to lecture us on something further back in history. He even ventures
into philosophy. Alas, the results are the same: Socrates was convicted exactly
for affirming the cultural values of the state. In his last speech he tells his
judges quite explicitely that it is they, the citizens of the great Athens, who
have fallen short of their state's cultural value. And he argues logically that
according to the state's values he should not be punished - rather he should
receive the highest of awards. If he indeed opposed the cultural values of
Athens his charges would not be nearly as lame as those he faced. In fact,
Socrates himself aspired nothing more than uphold these values. But this
discussion is getting a bit too philosophical. And btw, the passage I quoted
from Phill had nothing to do with its context, imho.

Phill, I suggest you stick to the merkier topics (abundant in this group) where
it is not quite as glaringly obvious where your foot resides most of the time.
-- 
 ---
	Gene Itkis		(gene@cs.bu.edu)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: rayes@Snake.mcs.kent.edu (Sandra Rayes)
Subject: Re: Fair Swap
Organization: Kent State University
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 09:32:37 GMT

In article <Bu9wnn.5Eu@news.cso.uiuc.edu> eshneken@ux4.cso.uiuc.edu (Edward A Shnekendorf) writes:
>
>>Hogswill.  All this sort of crap has been pushed here before, but nobody
>>ever provided evidence.  Can you?  
>
>What evidence do I need?  Where are the great provinical centers, institutions,
>or schools established by the "Palestinians" in the great amount of time 
>during which you claim they lived in the land.  You certainly know that some
>of the largest clans on the West Bank, like the Ja'abari and Masri clans,
>derive from Iraq and Syria respectively.  What evidence do you possess which
>claims that the Arabs who lived in Palestine had lived there permanently
>throughout all those years?  The facts on the ground certainly don't reflect
>that.
>
Who's this nut??? What tinker-box did he pop out of?

Arabs from the southern Arabian peninsula--roughly today's Yemen--migrated
to Palestine in the Fourth Millenium BC...that's two thousand years
*before* Abraham got there.  That sounds pretty permanent to the majority
of sound people.

As for institutions...ever heard of Al Aqsa???  It USED to be...before
occupation, that is...a powerful religious center...it is mentioned in
the Qur'an and many students of Islamic Shariah were educated there
throught the years.  Palestinians have a distinct culture, language
dialect all their own, etc... but you have probably never taken the
time to learn this.  Your blind support of Israel has you believing
the propaganda filth perpetrated by the likes of Shamir.

As for the names of Jabari and Masri, the last clown who used this 
sorry example as some sort of proof claimed the Masri clan was from
Egypt, not Syrian...so which is it??? And another fact you probably
have been kept from is that Arabs all throughout the Arabic world,
and even NON_ARAB MUSLIMS share common names...so what's your point.

Take your name, for example, it is German... Schnecken=worms;snails, 
Dorf=village.  So using YOUR logic you are German, and have no right
to any land in Palestine. You may just live there temporarily.


>Anyway, the question is not who lived on the land, but who owned it.  If Arab
>squatters were disenfranchised, then I'm sorry - the land was not theirs 
>anyway.  Of the land now known as Israel, Jews who lived there owned a

And it is not yours, either then, using your logic inversely as above.

>considerable amount more than Arabs who did.  Anyway, almost 70% was owned
>by the Mandatory government and transferred to Israel when it became a state.
>If anyone disenfranchised the Palestinians, it was the the Arab states which
>invaded and occupied their land.
>
Yeah, they "invaded" and "conquered" themselves!!  

If only we could have 'Umar ibn al-Khattab and Khalid ibn al-Walid back
for one year...

Sandra.
>
>Ed Shnekendorf.
>


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bgdv706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (Noam Tractinsky)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Fair Swap
Date: 5 Sep 92 05:43:36 GMT
Organization: University of Texas @ Austin

In article <25500@castle.ed.ac.uk>, egpv29@castle.ed.ac.uk (JHenderson) writes:
> In article <1992Sep3.133246.10319@cs.brown.edu> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:


> =>Neither do I, because it is clear that the sole responsibility to the
> =>`67 war lies with the Soviet Union, Egypt, Syria and Jordan.
> 
> That's odd - I don't remember seeing these countries invading Egypt.


	Apperently Henderson is one of those guys, ya'now, if his
	fellows encourage him to jump from the roof, he's goin'
	to blame the pavement for his broken bones: "I don't
	remember seeing them pushing me... and I was too drunk 
	to jump by myself..."
              

> -Jeremy Henderson            |  Une souris verte

Noam
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:19843 talk.politics.soviet:7832 soc.culture.greek:8738 soc.culture.europe:8293 soc.history:8179 news.admin:7553
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: How Much Did The U.S. Get?
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 17:06:02 GMT

In article <3755@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh) writes:

>Two weeks before the actual invasion, there were Iraqi troops
>on the Kuwaiti border and Saddam was threatening to invade.

I seem to recal that very shortly before the invasion of Kuwait,
Saddam promised the Kuwaitis that he would never invade them.  They
trusted him and were betrayed.

>Well, this movie just clarified a few perspectives concerning
>the Gulf War - the evil, corruption, and deceit of the American
>people ... 

I always thought that you guys hate the American GOVERNMENT and
specifically do not hate the American PEOPLE.  More Middle Eastern
double-talk, it appears.

>It also said that Hitler used to say that if you tell a lie long
>enough, people will begin to believe it.

Arafat has been living by this rule for a long time.  It seems to work
for him.

>No, I don't.  It is just a movie based on certain facts and
>testimonies from certain sources.

Good grief!  You call the NY Times "biased and racist" but view "JFK -
The Movie" as more reliable.  Wierd!

>I wonder how long we will know the truth about the Iran
>Contras, the Gulf War, and all the rest ....

Wait for the movie by Oliver Stone...

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com               Pat Paulsen for President
American-Occupied New York                    This year he has a real chance!
My opinions only - employer has no opinions.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: horen@west.rs.com (Jonathan B. Horen)
Subject: Re: Rabin and Labor:Is Past Prologue?
Reply-To: horen@west.rs.com
Organization: Renaissance Software, Inc.
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 19:26:10 GMT

In article 16147@cs.anu.edu.au, bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:
>
>In article 12639@das.harvard.edu, adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
>>In article <1483500295@igc.apc.org> Arab World and Islamic Resources <awair@igc.apc.org> writes:
>>
>>>Palestinians, who have so far made all the concessions, had better 
>>>be prepared to make more, if they are not to assume Shamir's role of 
>>>the "obstinate" partner in the peace process.  Otherwise, Friedman 
>>>implies, the "deal" is off.
>>
>>Could I be so bold as to ask for a list of concessions?  And could I
>>ask what the following actions by Israel are, if not concessions made?
>[list deleted]
>
>... a reasonable topic of discussion.  However, the problem I see in 
>trying to compare one set of "concessions" to another is that the
>two sides are not in equal places.  Almost every single card in the
>deck is held by Israel.  The sad fact is that the Palestinians have
>almost nothing concrete to give.  Perhaps it would be useful if you
>could make a list of those concessions that you think it would be
>reasonable for the Palestinians to make?

It is the ultimate in presumption on the part of the Palestinians to
keep playing "high-stakes" poker with a "bust" hand and no chips --
only a fool keeps taking their IOUs. One day their bluff will be
called, and the Palestinians will have to finally cover their bets
*and* their markers.


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: pssres12@ucs.usl.edu (Vignes Gerard M)
Subject: Re: Hanan Ashrawi .
Organization: Univ. of Southwestern La., Lafayette
Distribution: talk.politics.mideast
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1992 19:13:05 GMT

	What's this you say???

	Hanan Ashrawi promoting Palestinian interests
	over those of the Israeli people???

	Why---That Brazen Hussy!!!  Of all the impudence!


-- 

pssres12@ucs.usl.edu	Gerard Vignes, USL PO Box 42709, Lafayette LA 70504 USA

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Subject: Re: Fair Swap
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
Organization: Australian National University
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1992 06:49:02 GMT


In article 18tah5INN88h@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu, bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein) writes:
>
>In a previous article, rayes@Snake.mcs.kent.edu (Sandra Rayes) says:
>
>>>--
>>Look, any student of statistics can show you ways to turn numbers to
>>your favor.  But despite the figures and statistics of ALL the FOREIGN
>>elements of Palestine, the Palestinians (ARABS!!) always have, and 
>>always will be, in Palestine.  And they were there when Herzl's
>>followers from Europe landed there.
>
>Always???
>
>Those Arabs who today call themselves Palestinians are actually either (1)
>relatively recent immigrants from nearby Arab countries, generally
>attracted to Palestine by the economic opportunities that resulted from the
>influx of Jews returning to their homeland, or (2) descendents
>of earlier conquerors who kicked the Jews out of their homeland.

That's the first time I remember hearing a claim that Palestinians
are descended from Romans.  I suppose the occasional centurion might
have dropped his jeans, er, genes.

>>Statistics are a collection of numbers on paper...Palestinians are
>>HUMANS who have loved, tilled, and died in the land of Palestine.
>>While the partisans are arguing over numbers, Palestinian hearts
>>are bleeding for their homeland.
>>
>Those Palestinian Arabs who really loved the land had the opportunity to
>stay.  It's rather insulting to our intelligence to plead about the
>bleeding hearts of people who voluntarily left Palestine in the expectation
>of returning over the graves of their Jewish neighbors.

It's much more insulting to our intelligence when people like you
post crude propaganda.  Believe what you wish, just don't expect anyone
else to pay any attention.

Incidentally, Sandra's attack on statistics was unnecessary.  The actual
statistics of recent population movements (past 100+ years) clearly point 
to the opposite conclusion from the one you have been pushing.  

>bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu

Brendan.
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:19836 talk.politics.soviet:7825 soc.culture.greek:8731 soc.culture.europe:8286 soc.history:8172
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history
Subject: Re: About swimming fatigue of "paliks".
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 15:53:20 GMT

In article <1992Sep4.155120.7805@eecs.nwu.edu> efstse@epsilon.eecs.nwu.edu (Serafim Efstratiadis) writes:

>> Sea novices: Although famed as a maritime nation and despite being
>> surrounded by seas, a report has disclosed that only one in ten
>> conscripts called up to join the Greek navy can swim.
>> 
>> Poor "paliks".

>"Swim" or "scuba dive"? Scuba-diving is pretty popular in Greece.
>But of course, scuba-divers can not swim, can they? :-)

The "paliks" were right about one thing. About swimming fatigue,
I mean. Though hard it is to explain, the old legend was correct.
The "paliks" cannot fight and swim. Must have been the "skirts" 
of "paliks" to blame.


Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: rayes@Snake.mcs.kent.edu (Sandra Rayes)
Subject: Re: Fair Swap
Organization: Kent State University
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 05:40:08 GMT

In article <18tapbINN8jr@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bx573@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Alan H. Stein) writes:
>
>In a previous article, rayes@Snake.mcs.kent.edu (Sandra Rayes) says:
>
>>
>>Perhaps, now you can realize why it is so important to Muslims.  Our
>>tradition of the Prophet's Isra and Miraj (Journey and Ascension), which
>>took place during our holiest month, Ramadhan, left us Muslims with
>>the sanctuary of prayer...  This is in the Prophet's life, and later
>>on 'Umar ibn al-Khattab visited Jerusalem.
>
>If it is so important, then perhaps you can explain why so few Arab Muslim
>leaders visited Al Aksa while it was under Jordanian rule?  I seem to
>recall reading that whoever was ruling Saudi Arabia during that period
>never visited Al Aksa at all!

Stein, just what the hell do you know about Muslims, their statistics
on visiting holy places??? Especially hostile Jordanian statistics?  Are
you fluent in Arabic that you can cite me some authentic Arabic sources
to back your claim?

I don't give a crap if Saudi Arabia rulers went to Al Aqsa or if they
go on Hajj...Saudi Arabia rulers do not represent Islam!

>
>It appears to be important only when Jews control Jerusalem and allow free
>access to everyone.  When Muslims are in control, and bar Jews from their
>holiest sites, nobody seems to care.
>
Don't make me laugh...free access to everyone....NOT!  Just ask my neighbor...
who can't even cross the river.  No, my neighbor is not a former terrorist,
she is a young lady, mother of two infants, about 5'3", 90#!  A real threat.

Sandra.

>-- 
>bx573@cleveland.freenet.edu----Alan H. Stein----stein@uconnvm.uconn.edu


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: u9066624@cc.uow.edu.au (Tippu Hassan)
Subject: are jews racists?
Organization: University Of Wollongong
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 09:37:41 GMT


hi all 

im a new commer to the group. i dont know if this topic has been discussed 
earlier or not but i would like to know if the israelis feel guilty at all
for what they are doing to the  palistinians.

it seems to me that the palistinians are having to go through the same hell 
jews went through under the nazi's.

is there any place in the world for a people without a land??????

does any one  care????????/

in my own opinion the meretz party in israel has the    best stand on the 
issue of co-existance.

ie two seperate states

i think once palistine is created, the  muslims shouldn't have 
   any problems in recognizing israel.


i would especially like to hear the point of view of people actually living 
in  israel.



							bye
							TIPPU
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: pssres12@ucs.usl.edu (Vignes Gerard M)
Subject: Re: Post-Sadam Iraq
Organization: Univ. of Southwestern La., Lafayette
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 00:50:08 GMT

In article <1992Sep13.232533.16611@das.harvard.edu> adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack) writes:
>
>(And just so you'll follow up, and maybe actually discuss these
>issues, heres some tpm flame bait, pick one and flame, as long as you
>answer a few of the above questions:
>
>1.  Jordan is Palestine
>2.  Jerusalem is an Arab city
>3.  Pick one: (Iran/Kuwait) is a (disgrace to/model for) the arab world.

	Adam is becoming more sophisticated
	in his efforts to attract our attention :-)

-- 

pssres12@ucs.usl.edu	Gerard Vignes, USL PO Box 42709, Lafayette LA 70504 USA

Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:19831 talk.politics.soviet:7820 soc.culture.greek:8726 soc.culture.europe:8281 soc.history:8167
From: horen@rs.com (Jonathan B. Horen)
Subject: Re: Prisoners or Hostages?
Organization: Renaissance Software, Inc.
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 02:42:03 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.183521.21105@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem) writes:
>
>I have been thinking about the recent release of hundreds of
>Palestinians from Israeli prisons by Rabin's government. The US media
>have portrayed this action as an example of Rabin's goodwill; a positive
>gesture. I ask: why were these people in prison? If they are criminals,
>why are they being released? If they are not criminals, why are they not
>all released?

You piece of trash. They are criminals, and like many hundreds before them
they have been released because the PLO uses them as "bargaining chips" in
their terrorist campaign against Israel.

>I can only suspect that these people are some of the many that Israeli
>law allows to be detained indefinitely without charges. Are they not
>hostages? Are/were they not held for the purpose of suppressing
>opposition to occupation? How can Rabin be praised for doing what he
>ought to do? If he is still using them as bargaining chips, releasing
>them over time as a political gesture, how can Rabin be described as
>worthy of praise?

No. It is the Israelis who are the "hostages", because these same PLO
terrorists who are freed will just come back and do their "shtick" again.
Criminals stay criminals (and like you, assholes remain assholes)

>A truly praiseworthy act would be for Rabin to release all such hostages
>immediately and get rid of the law which allows them to be made
>prisoners arbitrarily and without cause. 

A "truly praiseworthy act" would be for these PLO terrorists to forsake
their violent ways, but don't look for that to happen anytime soon (look
for them on the nightly news, instead -- one hopes that *this* time the
IDF won't take any prisoners :-)

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: pssres12@ucs.usl.edu (Vignes Gerard M)
Subject: The Ugly Palestinian
Organization: Univ. of Southwestern La., Lafayette
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 03:48:30 GMT

	If Hanan Aswari is the Good Palestinian,
	and Ahhmed Jebril is the Bad Palestinian,
	can you guess who Yassar Arafat is?

-- 

pssres12@ucs.usl.edu	Gerard Vignes, USL PO Box 42709, Lafayette LA 70504 USA

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast