From: brian@coombs.anu.edu.au (Brian)
Subject: Re: Usual Libels against Chomsky
Organization: Computer Services Centre, Australian National University
Date: 28 Aug 92 00:10:11 GMT

jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy) writes:

>In article <1992Aug22.224535.7716@m.cs.uiuc.edu> drk@melodian.cs.uiuc.edu (Dave Kohr) writes:

>   In article <JMC.92Aug21201408@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU writes:

>   >Long before the communists conquered South Vietnam, it was clear which way
>   >the refugees were going.

>   Yes, they were fleeing away from the rural villages being demolished by US
>   in South Vietnam and toward the cities.  Do you have some example in mind
>   to actually support your case?

>Leftists make that claim, but what about the refugees who continued to
>flee after the communists had Vietnam to themselves.

	Perhaps they could have been sympathisers and supporters of the 
previous regime?  You know, the very people who benefited from the destruction
and mayhem which was welcomed on the country by some, and inflicted by others?

>   >I admit you Chomskyans interpret matters so that the U.S. is responsible
>   >when the communists kill somebody

>   This sounds pretty ridiculous to me.  Do you have even a single example?

>Anthony Lewis, the leftist NYT columnist made that point when the Khmer
>Rouge atrocities came out.  He said they were maddened by the U.S.
>bombing of the Cambodian border areas with Vietnam, which had been
>taken over by the North Vietnamese

	Didn't Chomsky (who I thought this discussion might be about going
by the title) make the point that in fact the US bombing _helped_ the 
Khmer Rouge to come to power because it radicalised the Cambodian Communists
and Pol Pot and his faction came to the fore as a response to the US bombing? 
	Thats rather different to claiming that the US is completely responsible
for the atrocities of the KR (although I wonder how you can then justify the US
Government of the 1980's support of the KR _after_ their record of
atrocity was well known John). 
.
>   >Don't forget the 1968 massacre of 2,500 in Hue when the communists
>   >captured it temporarily.

>   It seems to me that similar atrocities were committed by the US and its
>   allies also (My Lai being only the most famous example).  Certainly there
>   was no shortage of barbarity on both sides.

	Indeed and that is IMO the first step to recognising that the Vietnam
War was a huge mistake.  It wasn't a crusade for freedom, it wasn't a
campiagn to prevent communist aggression and it definitly didn't help the
people of Indochina in any way that I can see (apart from setting back their
national development by 20 years). 

>   >Does the American left have any responsibility at all for the murders
>   >by the people they supported?

>   John, once again what do you mean by "support"?

>In 1967 I attended an "anti-war" demonstration in San Francisco.  I
>still had some leftist sympathies and "opposed the war".  However,
>when I saw the people at the head of the demonstration carrying
>placards reading "Ho, ho, Ho Chi Minh, NLF gonna win" and also
>chanting the slogan, I realized that I wasn't marching in an anti-war
>demonstration but in demonstration in support of a communist victory.
>I never attended another.  Some people told me that the people in
>front were just a fringe group, but this fringe group was never
>criticized by the "mainstream" "anti-war" movement or prevented from
>dominating their demonstration.

	So, you are presuming then that _all_ anti-war demonstrators
actually supported the North?  Don't you think that is rather shortsighted or
silly by yourself John?  Its rather like claiming that all who opposed 
the war in the Gulf actually supported Saddam, rather than opposing both sides
viewpoint as they saw it.
	Drawing on another example from your own personal history John. Do
you believe that all those who opposed Joe McCarthy were actually Communists
as he maintained? 

>I think all these people bear some of the moral responsibility for the
>crimes of the people they supported.  Certainly the U.S. has borne
>moral responsibility when people we support commit crimes.

	But how much hot air do we see being wasted on the net whenever
someone attempts to apportion that responsibility John?  How often do we
hear representatives from your government on TV/Radio trying to claim that they
had nothing to do with creating the latest international bogeyman?



--
Brian Ross____________________________________________________________________
"I express many absurd opinions.  But I am not the first man to do it; 
	American freedom consists largely of talking nonsense."
____________________________________ E.W.Howe, Preaching from the Audience____
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