HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: flag@banco.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (Steve Waddell)
Subject: Re: Has anyone ever saved anyone wearing an avalanche beacon?
Organization: Bellcore
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 00:09:56 GMT

In article <BzD4uz.DKL@inews.Intel.COM>, matt@sugaree.intel.com (Matt Ammann - DA) writes:
|> In article <1992Dec15.232638.15442@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> blanchad@rintintin.Colorado.EDU (BLANCHARD DAVID OWEN) writes:
|>>In article <1992Dec15.081220.26080@watson.ibm.com> eru@titlis.zurich.ibm.com 
|>>(Erich Ruetsche) writes:
|>>
|>>>A second problem is the search if multiple persons and beacons must be found.
|>>>The superposition of the signals make the search really difficult.
|>>
|>>Erich brings up an issue that I have not thought about very much.  I certainly
|>>have never done any field practice with more than one beacon operating.
|>>
|>>Maybe it is time to go practice again.
|>>
|>>David Blanchard
|>>
|> Does anyone know of classes in the Sierra which include search techniques
|> and beacon practice.  Also would a net expert be interested in organizing a
|> net.practice session?
|> 
|> Matt
|> -- 
 A few years ago I participated in RMI's 5-day Winter Expedition Training
 Course. Included was about a half day of practice using the
 beacons. We did get to practice with 2 buried beacons, but we always had
 more searchers than victims (buried beacons) as we worked in teams of 3.

 I would imagine that it would be much more difficult when the number of
 searchers is less than the number of victims.

--Steve
____________________________________________________________________________
  Steve Waddell                                        sjw1@cc.bellcore.com
  Bellcore                                             (908) 699-7032
____________________________________________________________________________
Xref: sparky rec.backcountry:9640 rec.skiing:8557 rec.climbing:4958
From: bhilden@bigriver.Eng.Sun.COM (Bruce Hildenbrand)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry,rec.skiing,rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Colorado Avalanche Information
Date: 14 Dec 92 19:52:59 GMT
Organization: Sun
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigriver

In article <Dec14.165325.37231@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna) writes:
>In article <likn77INN7kd@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> bhilden@bigriver.Eng.Sun.COM (Bruce Hildenbrand) writes:
>>
>>But, seriously.  Has anyone on this net ever been saved(or have saved)`
>>someone with an avalanche beacon.  My friends who use these things
>>say that they are very hard to use and that unless you practice a lot,
>>your chances of finding the victim in time is really small.
>>
>>I don't want to hear any 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. hand stories about
>>rescues, I want to know if anyone on the net, has personally been
>>involved in an incident where a beacon saved a life.
>>
>>Again, no related stories, I want personal experiences(i.e. 1st hand).
>
>Well, I've never saved a life with one, but I have found plenty of them
>which were buried during practice.  I think they are reasonable easy to
>use if you learn to use them correctly.  You do not simply wander
>around pointing the receiver in various directions while trying to
>home in on the buried device.  Rather, you work a grid pattern.
>
>In the hands of someone who's never practiced, I suspect their
>effectiveness approaches zero.
>
>-Wayne Trzyna
> trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU

Thanks for the reply.  I agree that it is important to practice
using the tranceivers, however, the reason I wanted first hand
"I saved a life" stories is that having been involved in a number
of search and rescues, a lot of the techniques that you practice
go out the window when an emergency arrives(mainly because everyone
goes into panic mode).

I would be interested in knowing how long it took to find the
buried tranceiver in practice.  However, I think the situation
would be very different(unless really cool heads prevailed) if
you knew that there was a real person under the snow and not just
a buried tranceiver.  Walking a very precise grid and sticking to
the "search plan" might be a lot harder to do when failure carries
a much, much higher price.  When human lives are on the line, I think
we all tend to behave a bit differently.

Bruce
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: cyeomans@ms.uky.edu (Charles Yeomans)
Subject: Re: GPS, PC or non-PC?
    <1992Dec18.233552.11214@ra.msstate.edu>
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 02:42:27 GMT
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences

In article <1992Dec18.233552.11214@ra.msstate.edu> dnewcomb@whale.st.usm.edu (Donald R. Newcomb) writes:
>In article <1992Dec18.222018.700@guinness.idbsu.edu> jahn@guinness.idbsu.edu writes:
>>Until this article it had never clearly occured to me how inter-
>>related the use of GPS for backcountry orienting and military
>>use for counterinsurgency operations were ... it's the same stuff,
>>except that the military applications have access to more refined
>>locating abilities.  
>
>Can you name a single navigation system that was not developed by
>the military for military purposes or which does not have profound
>military applications? Loran? Omega? Transit? GPS? Celestial? Deca
>is arguable. What about other things  you  use in  the backcountry?
>Backpacks? Gore Tex? Freeze-dried food? How much are you ready to
>give up to assuage your politically correct conscience?
>-- 
Besides, technology doesn't kill people - governments kill people.

Charles Yeomans

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry,rec.skiing,rec.climbing
From: trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna)
Subject: Re: Colorado Avalanche Information
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 16:53:25 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department

In article <likn77INN7kd@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> bhilden@bigriver.Eng.Sun.COM (Bruce Hildenbrand) writes:
>
>But, seriously.  Has anyone on this net ever been saved(or have saved)`
>someone with an avalanche beacon.  My friends who use these things
>say that they are very hard to use and that unless you practice a lot,
>your chances of finding the victim in time is really small.
>
>I don't want to hear any 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. hand stories about
>rescues, I want to know if anyone on the net, has personally been
>involved in an incident where a beacon saved a life.
>
>Again, no related stories, I want personal experiences(i.e. 1st hand).

Well, I've never saved a life with one, but I have found plenty of them
which were buried during practice.  I think they are reasonable easy to
use if you learn to use them correctly.  You do not simply wander
around pointing the receiver in various directions while trying to
home in on the buried device.  Rather, you work a grid pattern.

In the hands of someone who's never practiced, I suspect their
effectiveness approaches zero.


-- 

-Wayne Trzyna
 trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU
From: azw@aber.ac.uk (Andrew Michael Woodward)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Sawyer Extractor for snake venom
Keywords: Rockport, Kilamanjaro
Date: 17 Dec 92 16:25:13 GMT
Organization: University of Wales, Aberystwyth


How well would a wine bottle vaccuum pump (for keeping opened bottles fresh) 
work as an ersatz substitute? If no one knows, how about going out, finding a 
Mojave Rattler, getting bitten, trying it, and posting the results?

Regard it as an exercise in international relations, so I am prepared with the 
knowledge next time I visit.
From: warren+@pitt.edu (Warren Weiner)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Emergency food
Date: 13 Dec 92 23:26:49 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

Some recent postings concerning "Emergency Food" have mentioned (mostly
jokingly) the use of alcohol.  I thought I'd post the following relevant tidbit:

(From Principles of Biochemistry by Albert L. Lehninger, Worth, 1982.
 ISBN: 0-87901-136-X           Reproduced without permission.)

Alcohol Consumption Inhibits Gluconeogenesis

Another aspect of gluconeogenesis is of special interest in human biology and
medicine.  Excessive consumption of ethyl alcohol is highly inhibitory to
gluconeogenesis in the liver and can result in a deficiency of glucose in the
blood, called hypoglycemia.  This effect of alcohol is particularly crucial
after periods of heavy physical exertion or lowered intake of food.  If ethanol
is given to human subjects after a period of exhaustive physical effort, the
blood glucose level can decline to only 30 or 40 percent of its normal
concentration.  Hypoglycemia is harmful to brain function, since it specifically
affects those portions of the brain concerned in temperature regulation, with
the result that the rectal temperature may drop 2degC or more under such
circumstances.  If glucose is given to such subjects by mouth, normal body
temperature is quickly restored.  The old practice of giving brandy or whiskey
to exhausted, starving persons rescued from the sea or the wilderness is
physiologically unsound and even dangerous; the rational treatment is
administration of glucose.

end.

P.S.  I will be in CO in late March for a conference and would appreciate any
suggestions for rock climbing close to Denver for late afternoon/eve.; also CO
Springs area.  Thanks in advance.
warren@unixd.cis.pitt.edu          or           warren@vms.cis.pitt.edu
Warren Weiner

Xref: sparky rec.backcountry:9648 rec.skiing:8576 rec.climbing:4966
From: trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU (wayne trzyna)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry,rec.skiing,rec.climbing
Subject: Re: Has anyone ever saved anyone wearing an avalanche beacon?
Date: 15 Dec 92 00:26:32 GMT
Organization: Colorado State University, Computer Science Department

In article <1992Dec14.220128.9090@u.washington.edu> davin@hardy.u.washington.edu (David Veale) writes:
>I'm interested in the beacon experience post, but there don't seem to be
>the type of replies the poster was looking for.  I too have practiced with
>a beacon, and feel that I would be able to find someone in less than 5
>min. in most situations, even after panic had set in.
>
>I would like to ask anyone if they have ever been skiing with someone that
>was wearing a beacon, got caught in an avalanche, but wasn't found in
>time, or at all.  Were injuries the cause of death, or was it
>suffocation/hypothermia?

People are killed by avalanches every year, wearing beacons.  You
can probably find lots of info about this at your local library.
Some die of all the causes you list above.  People buried more than 
four feet below the surface almost never survive.  Heli-skiers die
every year, all of them wearing beacons.  An entire heli-skiing
group was buried one year (with the exception of the guide).  They all
died.  This event was written up in one of the sports rags, like Sports
Illustrated, I'm told.

I recently met a guy who told of a member of his heli-skiing group
dying by falling in a tree well.  (Tree-wells are the biggest cause of
death heli-skiing, not avalanches.  The skier falls in head first, then
suffocates.  Anyone who's tried to get back up with ski's on in *deep*
snow can understand how this could happen.)  When the unfortunate skier
didn't show up at the pick up point, the group flew back up and re-traced
their route with beacons switched to recieve.  Upon finding the body, the
heli-skiing guide, more or less went to pieces, while one of the clients,
who happened to be a ski patrolman, took charge of first aid attempts, etc.

The original post explicitly requested no second-hand information,
but what the heck?  An anecdote is an anecdote.  Does anyone know
the percentages of beacon-wearing vs non-beacon-wearing avalanche
survivors? 

-- 

-Wayne Trzyna
 trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: daf@riviera.camb.inmet.com (Tony Flanders)
Subject: Re: Polargard vs. Thinsulate vs. Down booties (Winter camping)
Organization: Intermetrics Inc.
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 13:38:32 GMT

For winter camping in the Eastern U.S., where it tends to be damp in the
winter and rain is not uncommon, I strongly advise against down booties.
Synthetic insulators really do work when they are wet!  I remember vividly
one ski trip in April when my feet were cosy all evening; only when I was
was ready to get into my sleeping bag did I realize that my Fiberfill
booties were soaking wet.

As long as it is synthetic, I doubt that the choice of insulator matters
much.  The things to look for are,

    * a good, thick ensolite sole
    * a good fit to your feet
    * a nice thick layer of insulation on the uppers

    - Tony Flanders
	daf@inmet.camb.inmet.com
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: mack@oakhill.sps.mot.com (Gregg Mack ( Sun ))
Subject: Re: Cold feet
Organization: Motorola Inc., Austin, Texas
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 03:55:06 GMT

mehaf@cup.hp.com (John Mehaffey) writes:

>ravi@hls.com wrote:
>: Hi,
>: 	This might sound silly but how do you keep your feet warm inside
>: a sleeping bag ? 
>: [...]  Does anyone have any suggestions or comments ?
>: 
>A few suggestions:

>Make sure your feet are dry.
>Warm your feet thoroughly at the fire before retiring.
>Buy electric socks.
>Bring your dog.

Take one of those handwarmer of bodywarmer bags with you and toss it
down into the foot of yout sleeping bag just as you get in.  These
things require a little mechanical agitation occassionally to keep
the chemical reaction going (which produces the heat).  I found that
I kick my feet around in my sleep enough to keep things quite toasty.
They last several hours and only cost a couple of bucks (kinda high,
but what's a good night's sleep in the wilderness worth?).


-- 
Gregg Mack                  ---------- __o       __o       __o       __o
gmack@paceline.sps.mot.com  -------- _`\<,_    _`\<,_    _`\<,_    _`\<,_
Motorola RISC uProcessors   ------- (*)/ (*)  (*)/ (*)  (*)/ (*)  (*)/ (*)
Austin, Texas  USA          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: AS.MSW@forsythe.stanford.edu (Marc Whitney)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: GPS, PC or non-PC?
Date: 18 Dec 1992 16:06:55 -0800
Organization: Stanford University
Distribution: usa
NNTP-Posting-Host: morrow.stanford.edu

In article <1992Dec18.233552.11214@ra.msstate.edu>,
dnewcomb@whale.st.usm.edu (Donald R. Newcomb) writes:
>
>Can you name a single navigation system that was not developed by
>the military for military purposes or which does not have profound
>military applications? Loran? Omega? Transit? GPS? Celestial? Deca
>is arguable. What about other things  you  use in  the backcountry?
>Backpacks? Gore Tex? Freeze-dried food? How much are you ready to
>give up to assuage your politically correct conscience?
>--
>
Don't for get the compass and the sextant.  I'll bet the people who
first used these weren't just looking for fish!

Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: witters@tc.fluke.COM (John Witters)
Subject: Re: Asolo Hiking Boots
Organization: John Fluke Mfg. Co., Inc., Everett, WA
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 21:02:40 GMT

>>       I have a pair of Asolo Yukon, very heavy boots, top quality.
>>    The cost is high ($260 Can. $) but the quality is good.  I've
>>    been told that all ASOLO BOOTS ARE NARROW and mine are.  I like that.
>>    With wide boots, my feet tend to slide.  I already lost some toe nails
>>    because of that.  I don't know the AFX 530 though.  Hope this helps.
>>
>>                                                       Sylvain Fauvel

I have a pair of Asolo Yukons too.  They are comfortable boots, and they've
never given me blisters.  However, I have had some problems with them:

	1.	I was disapppointed that they didn't keep my feet dry while
		hiking in heavy rain and through wet snow.  My feet got wet
		the first time I used them in wet conditions, even though I'd
		treated them with Bi-Well.

	2.	After about a year, the soles started coming off.  I had them
		re-soled.

	3.      After about a year and a half, the linings began splitting.  I
		haven't had the linings patched yet, though I plan to.

This has happened to me on the other boots I've owned over the last ten years
or so (Merrill Mountaineers and Vasque Wilderness?)  I'm not sure whether the
problem is with me and how I treat my boots, or that no-one makes boots
designed for hiking and mountaineering in the great North-Wet.  I only hike
400 to 500 miles a year, so I doubt that my problem is due to excessive wear.

If things go the way they have in the past, I suspect my Asolos will give up
the ghost in another year or so, and I'll have to replace them.  Maybe I'll
try Raichles next time.  Does anyone know if Galibies (sp?) can be bought in
the USA anymore?  I've heard good reports on them.

-John
-- 
    *  *  *		John Witters			voice:	(206) 356-5274
  *  \      *		John Fluke Mfg. Co. Inc.
 *    \      *		P.O.B. 9090 M/S 241F		fax:	(206) 356-5116
*   DRIVING   *		Everett, Washington  98206-9090	     or (206) 356-5174
 *      \    *
  *      \  *		domain:	witters@tc.fluke.COM
    *  *  *		ARPA:	fluke!witters@uw-beaver.ARPA
			uucp:	{uunet,sun,microsoft,uw-beaver}!fluke!witters
Hi! I'm a .signature virus!  Add me to your .signature and join in the fun!
From: tilley@fsh.UUCP (Tom Tilley)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: book, CADILLAC DESERT
Keywords: water usage
Date: 15 Dec 92 19:03:11 GMT
Reply-To: tilley@sunfse.ese.lmsc.lockheed.com
Distribution: usa
Organization: LMSC, Sunnyvale

In article <1992Dec14.163201.4410@ico.isc.com> brooks@ico.isc.com (Chris Brooks) writes:
>Given my limited understanding of water law, I thought Ag. water usage was 
>based on a "use it or lose it" kind of approach (known as "beneficial use").

This is the case with a lot of western water (it isn't limited to
agricultural usage).  The term is "appropriative water rights" (as
opposed to "riparian rights" which are the case in the east).  There
is a discussion of this in "Cadillac Desert".  I too am not a lawyer (or
any other expert in law, including water law), but it is my understanding
that "appropriative rights" has the benefit in the west of distributing
the power that goes with control of water, which in the west is a scarce
resource (I believe Reisner describes something to this effect).  Of course,
it also encourages waste since if a water rights owner fails to use his
rights, someone else may claim the rights (the water itself is officially
"owned" by the state).

About two months ago, someone from the Mono Lake Committee gave a talk at
the Cupertino, CA REI (I forgot his name: I think he is their business
manager).  One of the items available from the committee was the text of
the CA Supreme Court opinions from the ruling regarding Mono Lake (I think
it was "Audibon Society et. al. v. Superior Court of Alpine County", sometime
in Feb. 1983).  In this ruling, the court added to CA water rights the
concept of "public trust" (in the case of Mono Lake, this directs the state
to consider the "public trust" value of the water flowing into Mono Lake in
addition to the "use value" of the water to Los Angeles).

> ...   I should also say,
>that according to an EPA lawyer friend of mine, Ca. is "ahead of the curve" on
>water usage; even considering Ag sector usage.  That should give you some idea
>as to the state of water law.

Pretty sad.

> ...  I would be hard pressed to believe that the water
>boards are interested in "equitable distribution" of water.  It ain't what's
>right, it's what's the rules.

The water boards have to be interested in "legal" distribution of water:
not "equitable" distribution (their job, if I understand it correctly, is
to apply water law to specific situations).  Defining "equitable" is a
political and legal process.  "Water goes to whoever can put it to the
highest use" sounds quite reasonable and equitable.  Unfortunately, leaving
water where it is is not defined as "use", whereas pouring it on lawns in
a desert and semi-desert environment is considered a fairly high use (time
to stop picking solely on agriculture when urban users also do things that
seem to defy common sense).

Tom.
#--------------------------------------------------#
| Tom Tilley                                       |
| Internet : tilley@sunfse.ese.lmsc.lockheed.com   |
From: pstryjew@colsun.Central.Sun.COM (Pete Stryjewski)
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: reheatable handwarmers
Date: 16 Dec 1992 21:40:13 GMT
Organization: "Sun Microsystems Computer Corporation, Dallas, TX."
Distribution: world
Reply-To: pstryjew@colsun.Central.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: stimpy.central.sun.com

In article <1gnud6INNr3g@moe.ksu.ksu.edu> diverson@phys.ksu.edu (David Iverson) writes:
>But I'm really curious about these packs that you throw in boiling water to
>recharge and then they presumably store the energy until you decide to
>release it.
>
>some questions:
>
>By what mechanism do they work?
>How do you work them?
>How well do they work?
>How long does it take to recharge them?
>How long do they take to discharge?
>Any finite lifetime?
>Can I make hot-drinks out of the water that I boil the bag in or is this
>unsafe?
>etc...

I have had several of these for a couple of years.  Mine are also my by Prism
Technologies.  When I got mine they had two varieties, one that "recharged" by
boiling and the other by microwaving or boiling.  The microwaving one had what
seemed to be a more durable (and plyable) plastic bag.  We use ours for 
handwarmers and hot packs.

The ingredients say "food grade" sodium acetate or something like that, so you
maybe okay if it leaks.  But I don't know how much it takes to kill a lab rat,
so check with someone who knows.

I have had one spring a leak, on a seam.  I noticed it because there were small
stalagmites on my shelf and floor.  The liquid leaked out, and crystalized on
impact creating a tower of little drops.  The interesting thing was that what was
left in the bag was still liquid, until I touched it (not the flex disc). Once
I touched the bag, it solidified.

Hope this answers some questions.

Pete Stryjewski
pstryjew@colsun.Central.Sun.COM



Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
From: brant@seq.uncwil.edu (AT-Dreamer)
Subject: Re: tincture of iodine vs. ta
Organization: Univ. of North Carolina @ Wilmington
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 14:36:02 GMT

tut@cairo.Eng.Sun.COM (Bill "Bill" Tuthill) writes:

>......in moist climates, you are better off with metallic iodine
>crystals.  PolarPure makes such a product with built-in thermometer.
>This is what I take kayaking.  A 1989 study indicated that required
>contact times were longer for PolarPure than for PotableAqua, so be
>forewarned.  It might help to shake the water bottle.

PolarPure is 5mg of iodine crystals for 8 dolloars You can buy 50mg
of crystals from a chemical house for 16 dollars. I had to have a
druggest order them but the where very cheap.  I bought the one 
once bottle for a buck a piece and passed them out to my camping buds.
-- 
+------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| "What doesn't kill us makes us stronger"  Spoken by many A.T. hikers         |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: dittmare@gtewd.mtv.gsc.gte.com
Newsgroups: rec.backcountry
Subject: Re: Avalanche Information
Date: 17 Dec 92 09:14:48 -0800
Organization: GTE Govt. Systems, Electronics Def. Div.

IMHO the best advice I was ever given regarding  avalanche beacons is that if
you are going to even think about getting into conditions where you may need a
beacon, you should attend an avalanche training course - learn about snow
conditions and how to determine whether there is an avalanche danger.  The best
use of an avalanche beacon is never *having* to use it! (I know I've heard that
phrased better as a piece of "wisdom" - anyone got the words?)

Most avalanche courses I've heard of included a session with beacons
(especially one held up on snow country during the season).  If you look for
these courses it will probably have training and a practice session with
beacons.  Contact any of reputable ski-guide services and they will either
have a course or be able to recommend one.

Eric