From: w2lee@argo.acs.oakland.edu (Walter Lee)
Subject: Re: Open letter to the libertarian right
Reply-To: w2lee@argo.acs.oakland.edu
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, MI
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 01:03:19 GMT

>In article <1992Nov3.222018.9935@vax.oxford.ac.uk> denning@vax.oxford.ac.uk (Iain Morrison) writes:
>
>>> 
>>>>  Just as I do not believe in punishing people who rape and
>>>>murder, I do not believe in punishing people who economically rape
>>>>and murder.  I don't exactly think rapists and murderers should be
>>>>praised either.
>

In article <37571@uflorida.cis.ufl.edu>, jfh@reef.cis.ufl.edu (James F. Hranicky) writes:

>This is incredible--one, likening the rich with obvious violators of
>individual rights, then not punishing the true criminals. 
>
>Apparently, your idea of hurting someone is not helping someone.
>Well, do you have any savings? Are you hungry? Have you, today, 
>not done *everything* in your power to help those who are being *murdered*
>by those who work? You haven't? Are you a murderer, too?
>

Point taken.  I pleaed at least partly guilty.

>If not helping someone is hurting someone, then you are partly guilty
>for all human sufferings. You should be ashamed of yourself by your own
>standards of value. Notice that if all those people who "have money"
>gave it all away, there would be impoverishment for them, and almost
>no gains for the rest of the world, plus no capital accumulation, which
>is the source of production. In short, you advocate poverty for all,
>rather than anyone being rich.

If all those people who "have money" gave away all but, say, $1,000,000 per
year, not only would there be no impoverishment for them; it is inconceivable
(to me) that there would be even marginal impoverishment for their lifestyle. 
The ONLY loss would be in power over people, communities, even nations.

Granted the gains for the rest of the world, if any, would be marginal.  (Just
aren't enough multimillionaires to go around! :-)

Also, I question the doctrine that capital accumulation is the source of
production.

(your guess is as good as mine as to the identity of the authors.)
(Now that I mention it, my attribute of > level 4 to Iain may be a misquote.)
>>>>  But not only is letting the poor starve to death
>>>>passive violence and coercion, property by definition is backed up
>>>>with active violence and coercion.   Why must property be actively
>>>>violent and coercive?  
>>> 
>>> Because people who think they need it more than you do tend to be violent
>>> and coercive in stealing it.  Because everyone's existence is endangered if
>>> they have no way of defending what is rightfully theirs.
>>                                        ^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>>again who decides? For example does our royal family rightfully own any of
>>"their" possessions (hint NO!).
>>
>>and what about land in general? "A common treasury for all" methinks - the
>>levellers knew a thing or two! 
>>
>
>Property ownership is decided, in a free society, by those who have *worked*
>and saved up enough money to buy it. Land in general falls under this
>principle.
>

I recognize personal property as the rightful posession of its owners, as they
*worked* and saved up for it.  I don't consider Land to fall under the
principle that one is entitled to the fruit of one's labor, because it's
obvious to me that Land is the fruit of no human being's labor.  Although there
is something unfair about taking land away from someone who paid for it, we
should recognize the fact that ALL land, at some point in time, was seized,
not bought.

>>
>>The function of society should be to  protect the members from the baser
>>instincts of its constituent members and to enable everyone to attain 
>>their maximum potential if they so wish.
>>
>
>Sound just like capitalism in its pure form. Have you made a conversion?
> 

I must be missing something.  I always thought that if there was one thing
capitalism emphatically does NOT offer, it is protection, from anything. 
Tanstaafl, kids.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Walter Lee    w2lee@argo.acs.oakland.edu

Don't blame me, I didn't vote!