HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: wolfe@wolves.uucp (G. Wolfe Woodbury)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Bears
Date: 22 Jul 92 00:13:06 GMT
Organization: Red Wolfe @ The Wolves Den
X-Md4-Signature: c06897405289eb14fc3dc8d36d3b22ec

In article <711307025.F00001@therose.pdx.com> Frank.Perricone@f814.n355.z1.therose.pdx.com (Frank Perricone) writes:
>In a message dated 13 Jul 92  23:06:52, Paul Harvey wrote:
>
> PH> that we strive to eliminate the Bear from our world, 
> PH> especially the big brown
> PH> bear, aka Grizzley? 
>
>Here in Southeast Alaska, few people consider bears violent.  That's because
>they tend to wander in off the hills and into our streets and lawns, but
>usually >their "prey" is garbage pails.  

I heard an interesting story.

The current fad in hiking in bear country is to attach little (jingle)
bells to yourself so that you won't startle a bear by coming upon them
unaware.

The question was, when examining a bear scat (droppings), how can you
tell if it is a black bear scat or a brown (grizzly) scat?




The Grizzly scats have bells in them.

(I know, bad joke)
				Wolfe
-- 
G. Wolfe Woodbury @ The Wolves Den UNIX, Durham NC         [use the maps!]
UUCP: ...dukcds!wolves!wolfe   ...duke!wolves!wolfe    <Standard disclaimers>
Domain: wolfe%wolves@cs.duke.edu    wolfe@cds.duke.edu
    Above all, we celebrate.   Celebrate the Circle Statement of Purpose
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: nancyp@techbook.com (Nancy Parsons)
Subject: Request for invocation of Diana
Summary: Want to invoke Diana for 8/13 festival
Organization: TECHbooks of Beaverton Oregon - Public Access Unix
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 03:36:04 GMT

My SO and I are handfasting on 8/13, and we find that the day
is thought to be the annual celebration of Diana - we thought
it would be appropriate to invoke her at the ceremony.  

Any suggestions?


-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Nancy Parsons            | "You can't fire me - slaves must be sold!   |
|------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| nancyp@techbook.COM  ...!{tektronix!nosun,uunet}techbook!nancyp        |
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: Who cares
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 21 Jul 92 23:30:41 GMT

In article <l6odjjINNa0@jethro.Corp.Sun.COM> tmhoff@oogoody.Corp.Sun.COM writes:
>In article 25296@geppetto.encore.com, aaldrich@geppetto.encore.com (Al Aldrich) writes:
>>tmhoff@oogoody.Corp.Sun.COM (Todd Hoff) writes:
>>
>>I am hearing a lot of defensiveness about the injustice of being one of
>>the priveleged and getting blamed for it..so let me play a little
>>devil's advocate here..
>>
>>:-)
>>
>
>You bet I'm defensive. Are not blacks defensive about racism? Is it PC
>to blame people for things they didn't do? I thought the sins of the father
>thing went out 2000 years ago.

You carry NO guilt for what was done by people long since dead.  But
when you do nothing to help the situation get better, you DO bear guilt
for perpetrating it even tacitly.

I'm not asking men to say, "We are total scum for doing these awful
things to you."  All Id fucking like to hear is, "We are sorry that
these horrible things happen, and we will do our damnedest to stamp them
out of existence.  It will not continue into the next generation of
men."

And I'd like to see women just once boycott the cosmetic industry, or go
for a good solid month without shaving our legs, even though THAT (and
nothing else that I've said so far) is stereotypically feminist.

>>It's good that you do't/didn't do all of the above, but NOT doing is as
>>good as condoning in practice.
>>
>
>I reject this out of hand. You are witch burning and don't even realize it.

Oh so much bullshit.  He isn't witch burning.  All he's saying is that
if you bitch and moan about White Oppression, why aren't you equally
bitching about other forms?

As I said previously, Hitler was not the most guilty.  He started the
ball rolling.  The masses who did nothing to stop him and who actually
subscribed to what he said were infinitely more guilty.  They allowed
the cancer to spread when it could have just died out.

If you do nothing to rectify a bad situation, YOU ARE GUILTY OF
PERPETRATING IT, even if you didn't get it started.

Blessings,
Janis
From: darsie@eecs.ucdavis.edu (Richard Darsie)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Firewalk
Date: 27 Jul 92 15:39:24 GMT
Organization: University of California, Davis

This past weekend I shared a truly transcendent experience with
about 25 other people. We attended a firewalking seminar.

I can recall more than ten years ago first reading about Westerners
doing this and thinking then "I'd like to do that someday."
Well, "someday" was Saturday night. 

First the instructors gave us some background to the practice.
In most of the "traditional" cultures (i.e., non-European, although
the Vikings also did something similar) firewalking has always
had a relationship to healing of body and/or spirit. Then we all
went out to the field and stacked the wood. I had been feeling
confident and determined up to this point. Then I felt the wave of
heat as the fire was lit. It started to get scary then. After 
circling the fire and chanting around the fire for awhile
("Earth my body, water my blood, air my breath and fire my spirit")
we went back inside to let the fire burn down and to do the real work
on our fears. We had to articulate both our hopes and deepest fears
about the walk. I could feel the tension building both within myself
and within the group as a whole as the time came nearer for the
actual walk. By the time we went back out the fire had burned down
to a nice bed of coals. Once again the heat as we approached the
site was shocking; again I thought, "I don't think I can do this".
We all helped rake the coals into a 10-foot long path, and formed a
circle around it. The drumming and chanting helped lift the group
energy, and it really got a boost when one of the instructors did
the walk. When the first "student" walked, you could see the 
transformation in her when she got to the other side. By this time
my leg was shaking so badly I could hardly stand, as I thought about
actually doing it. But the shakes went away, and the time was right
and I went and stood in front of the path of coals. With a bow I
let go and walked. I can't too clearly describe what happened, just
that it was one of the most incredible experiences of my life. But
one of the most amazing things was that after the walking was over,
we all knelt down right next to the still hot bed of coals and put our
hands in and just played with the coals for a minute. It didn't feel
hot at all.  

After the walk, we went back inside to talk about it a little bit
(and to check our feet!).  The instructors had us write two sentences
down on a card:  "The impossible is possible. I can do anything I choose."

In thinking about this over the past day (has it only been 36 hours
since this happened?) one thing seems clear: it was the group energy
that made it possible. In the course of 3 hours 25 strangers became
a family. Without the love and strength of everyone there, I know I
would never have been able to go through with it. 

Are there any other firewalkers lurking out there? I'd be interested
in hearing other experiences. And if anyone out there ever gets the
opportunity to do a firewalk, DO IT!

Magic...happens.

Blessings to all,

Richard Darsie
(Tuneweaver)
darsie@eecs.ucdavis.edu
From: russell@Apple.COM (Russell Williams)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Women, men, scum, and wicca . . .
Date: 21 Jul 92 15:53:19 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc., Cupertino, CA

In article <2A6B36DE.16386@noiro.acs.uci.edu> cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:
[A lot of impassioned and well-reasoned stuff too long to quote]

I have to agree with Janis: when I hear people  complaining about
affirmative action or men complaining about women-only
groups, etc. my reaction is: get real. You're just a selfish kid
who's had all the toys and is complaining about having to share them.

As for thousands of years of guilt, though, I don't accept it. I'm
not big on guilt in the first place, and I've only had 36 years to
accumulate it. I don't believe in "even unto the
third and fourth (or whatever it is) generations". I'm responsible
(a word I much prefer) for what *I* do, not for what anybody else
does, and certainly not for what dead people did. A history of 
thousands of years of oppression of women by men certainly affects 
women (and men) differently than would a single lifetime's worth,
but that doesn't add up to an interest-bearing guilt account. 

Most would say that Hitler bore more guilt than the millions who
followed him, but his existence gave others the responsibility
to oppose him. I'm not guilty of thousands of years of male
domination, but I have a responsibility to help change it.
From: elton@sybase.com (Elton Wildermuth)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Who cares
Date: 23 Jul 92 22:27:18 GMT
Organization: Paratheo-Anametamystikhood of Eris Esoteric, Edwin Meese Cabal

Just responding to one thing near the end of the referenced article ...
Janis responds to Leo by saying:
>
>Sorry.  I do sympathize, but I've seen so many people who just knee-jerk
>whenever a minority says something about what they've been through.  So
>many people just think that minorities are just out to make everyone
>else feel guilty.  You have my sympathy, since you and other white
>straight men are simply reaping the foul harvest of men long since dead.
>But, minorities of every stripe are oppressed and shit on -- have been
>for years.  If that fact makes you uncomfortable, think how much more
>uncomfortable it is to LIVE it.

This is a container of excrement, and none may abide the odor thereof.

Speaking of jerking knees ... Janis, you have fallen into the trap of
accepting the definitions that others have given you, and repeating what
you're told without subjecting it to any thought.

Think carefully about having called women (and, thereby, yourself) a
"minority".  Think about what it means to BE a minority:  there have to
be few enough of you that you can't put up a serious fight when Them
starts making threatening advances on Us.  This adequately describes
American hispanics and Indians, and -- to a lesser extent -- blacks;
it does not describe women, who comprise almost 51% of the American
population.

The entire concept of "minority" has been cheapened by overbroadening
the definition.  It does not now and never has meant "one who is not a
straight white male of northwestern European descent".  (And if it DID
mean that, why are Japanese no longer classed as minorities in terms of
discriminatory hiring practice tests?)

Moreover, the last I checked, Italian Americans were not high on anyone's
list of oppressed peoples, and I don't care how many Irish kids you went
to school with.  If you want to start playing ancestry games, remember
that the Italian community moved quickly out of "oppressed" status and
into the vanguard of those discriminating against new American immigrants.
No Irish need apply ... remember?

By trying to assume the label of "minority" in order to gain the protected
status that it implies, you are just as guilty of trying to take unfair
advantage of others as any of the people you are complaining about.
Why, in order to combat them, do you find it necessary to behave like
them?  Is that really any way to make a positive change in the world?

My question for you is, what are you going to do to make the situation
BETTER, rather than just rearrange it so that a different group gets to
be on top?

			-- Elton
+++
Y'know, for that matter, I AM a "minority"; how odd that none o' them
other minorities wants to hear about it when I protest my awful treatment...
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: shrdlu@willow.sdd.trw.com (Lynda L. True)
Subject: Re: Firewalk
Organization: TRW Inc., Redondo Beach, CA
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 18:18:49 GMT

In article <qR4RoB6w165w@brewich.hou.tx.us> donal@brewich.hou.tx.us
 (Donal) writes: 
>pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey) writes:

>> In article <1992Jul30.170107.21017@burrhus.harvard.edu> 
>> canders@isr.harvard.edu (Carl E. Anderson) writes:
>> >	There is a quote from somewhere which says: "Any sufficiently
>> >advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic".  And _vice_versa_ of
>> >course ;)

>> Who said that? I seem to remember an association with the Atomic bomb for
>> some reason. Was it Einstein or Oppenheimer? Don't tell me it was Sagan?

>I am NOT sure, but I think it was either Asimov or Clark.

Nope. Try Heinlein.
-- 
Of course I don't SPEAK for TRW; they pay me to THINK for them.

shrdlu@rowan.sdd.trw.com (Lynda L. True)
Work Phone - (310) 812-1660 or (310) 812-1570
From: altheimm@nextnet.csus.edu (Murray Altheim)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: New group details and comments.
Date: 28 Jul 92 17:14:08 GMT
Organization: California State University: Sacramento

In article <1992Jul28.045009.6388@wolves.uucp> wolfe@wolves.uucp (G. Wolfe Woodbury) writes:
>In article <1438@lysator.liu.se> ceci@lysator.liu.se (Ceci Henningsson) writes:
>>My suggestion is, that we start a soc.religion.pagan group.

It's not hard to understand our zeal in wishing to be considered with
the "big boys" on the net, but it does smack a bit of "Billy got a
bicycle, so I want one too" when I think about it. Sure, we would gain
visibility, but Wolfe brings up a point I originally ignored --
that soc.religion.pagan would be moderated.  Do YOU want ANYBODY to 
filter what is said here?  Sure, we have our flamefests and divergences
from topic, but that is part of not only alt.pagan, but P/paganism in
general (I've learned from a few of those divergences).

I probably am like most others around here -- I don't trust the 
invisible people in charge to filter the "correct" material for my eyes,
just as I don't expect the New York Times to give me the "real" story
given that the CIA pays part of their staff.

>	ALL the other soc.religion.* groups are moderated groups, and to
>successfully pass a vote to place a group here, we will need to make a
>moderated group.
[...]
>	I am quite afraid that an attempt to get an unmoderated
>soc.religion.pagan would be unwise.
[...]
>	I think it is high time to try for a talk.religion.pagan
>newsgroup in the  main hierarchies (deferring the .wicca question for
>the moment.)

Pardon my ignorance, but if it IS possible to get an unmoderated soc
group, why would that be unwise?  Because many administrators might 
not subscribe?  An unmoderated soc.religion.pagan group is what I 
originally thought a good idea;  basically alt.pagan, just "moved" to
soc.religion.pagan.  

If we don't move to soc, I retract my earlier vote and stay quite 
happily here in alt.pagan.  I don't see any benefit from a talk group
other than to dilute what we already have here.

As for the suggestion for alt.pagan.wicca, being as I have a *little*
Wiccan blod in me vanes, it ostensibly seems like a good idea.  Those
who consider themselves strongly or solely Wiccan deserve a forum for
Wiccan ideas.  I still feel the danger in diluting our "melting pot"
and that there is always strength in numbers, but I would still vote 
"yea" for its formation regardless of those feelings.

I appreciate your efforts, Wolfe.

--

A wild wind on a dark moon,
your eyes like orbs lit from cold fires
she follows your movement 
a great cat at your neck

In the morning breathe heather
and pungent mint - the flutter of a creek
her cool breeze clots the blood
still fresh in a new scar


-- 
Murray M. Altheim      "Ils ont l'orteil de Bouc, & d'un Chevreil l'oreille,
Instructional Consultant    La corne d'un Chamois, & la face vermeille
CSU, Sacramento          Comme un rouge Croissant: & dancent toute nuict
altheimm@csus.edu       Dedans un carrefour, ou pres d'une eau qui bruict."
From: ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: alt.wicca, anyone?
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 15:02:27 EST
Organization: Ailanthus Project

ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe) writes:

> 
> Do you think it would be more productive to make it soc.religion.witchcraft,
> rather than s.r.wicca?  If so, how broadly would we define Witchcraft?  Would
> we need to specify that we are talking about it in the context of religion,
> not just magical power?  Would we define it by cultural lines?  I have been
> working on an essay on the boundaries of Wicca, but I wouldn't know where to
> begin bounding Witchcraft.  (The Wicca essay will be posted soon.)
> 
good goddess, NO!!!!!  soc.religion.wicca will draw the fundies quickly 
enough, but soc.religion.witchcraft?  not stopping anyone if that is what 
they wish to do.  not my newsgroup, after all.  but some battles are not 
worth fighting, all imho, of course...

                                       -ailsa


                ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com
 
"If it has tires or testicles, you're going to have trouble with it."
                            _Ohio state Senator Linda Furney
From: wolfe@wolves.uucp (G. Wolfe Woodbury)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: alt.wicca, anyone?
Date: 24 Jul 92 02:02:39 GMT
Reply-To: wolfe@wolves.durham.nc.us
Followup-To: alt.pagan
Organization: Red Wolfe @ The Wolves Den
X-Md4-Signature: dc258c779d1243cb23be02cdc33c0a26

Adding an alt group is relatively easy.  Lets kick this around here a
bit and see if there is a modicum of support for the group in addition
to the alt.pagan general group.

If you want an alt.pagan.wicca group, or don't want it, or want a
different name, reply to me by email and I'll track the responses as a
straw poll of support.

When the results are clear, I'll handle the logistics of posting to
alt.config and issuing the newgroup for alt.pagan.wicca or whatever it
comes up to.

			Wolfe

If the mail address in the Reply-To: header isn't recognized by your
mailers, try the addresses in the signature.
-- 
G. Wolfe Woodbury @ The Wolves Den UNIX, Durham NC         [use the maps!]
UUCP: ...dukcds!wolves!wolfe   ...duke!wolves!wolfe    <Standard disclaimers>
Domain: wolfe%wolves@cs.duke.edu    wolfe@cds.duke.edu
    Above all, we celebrate.   Celebrate the Circle Statement of Purpose
From: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Subject: Re: >suggestion<
Reply-To: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Organization: LaserMaster Technologies, Minneapolis, MN
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 92 16:38:15 GMT

From a post by Br'anArthur;

>" "pagan" means anyone who is of any of the various pagan religions and
>philosophies
>can "Pagan" mean a person who identifies hir religion or philosophy with
>neopaganism, but who does not identify with any specific pagan religion?
>
>Would this help the situation?
>
>              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
>                               Br'anArthur"

  Excellent !!  I'll start using this convention immediately.

  Way cool -- I've been noticing that as this goes on, there are more and
more words which fall into the nether regions of the English I received
in school.  I can see alot of really useful applications for this approach.

  Seems like you've made a really succinct distillation of all of the posts
to date.

  Good job!

  Blessed be, Ciaran.
From: donal@brewich.uucp (Donal)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Firewalk
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 14:09:03 CDT
Organization: The Brewer's Witch BBS, HouTx, +1 713 272 7350

darsie@eecs.ucdavis.edu (Richard Darsie) writes:

> This past weekend I shared a truly transcendent experience with
> about 25 other people. We attended a firewalking seminar.
> 
[...a truly incredible experience deleted for sake of bandwidth...]
> Magic...happens.
> 
> Blessings to all,
> 
> Richard Darsie
> (Tuneweaver)
> darsie@eecs.ucdavis.edu
>  

Wow! What can I say. Your post brought tears to my eyes. It is similar to 
the process I experienced the first time I drummed in a drummers circle 
at a recent pagan festival (Beltane, by Texas' Council of Magickal 
Arts(CMA)). That sense of lift and family, the energy exchanged. I 
drummed for hours and hours (7 or 8pm to sometime around 4am) and still 
had trouble getting to sleep. If I ever get the chace to firewalk, I 
think I will give it a try. Thank you for a truly beautiful post. Blessed 
Be!

--------------------
Donal, Sysop of The Brewer's Witch BBS -- +1 713 272 7350
(Internet) lobster.hou.tx.us!brewich!donal 
(SCA) Ld. Donal Dubh, IC of Dun Bruddair, B of the Stargate, K of Ansteorra
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: Who cares
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 19:39:22 GMT

heimberg@pacific.mitre.org (Jeff Heimberger) writes:

>I'm tired of being *personally* responsible for every wrong on the
>planet, just because I'm a white, anglo saxon, (formerly) protestant,
>middle class, heterosexual male with a fair education.  I try really

Hmm, I wonder who said that you were "*personally* responsible", Janis or you.

I think the problem is that some of the men in this newsgroup don't understand
the distinction between someone talking about hir feelings and someone
accusing individuals.  Janis never said that Jeff, or anyone else in this 
newsgroup, was responsible.  What she said in the original post was that she was
*hurting*.  

This is the point folks--feelings are worth listening to.  And we can't listen
if we are worried about being perfect.  Stop focusing on yourself for just
five minutes when you read a post like that.  (Or when you hear someone saying
something like that.)  You don't seem to be able to get the concept that
the world does not revolve around you.  When Janis talks about her feelings, 
she is not talking about you.  The appropriate response is to recognise that
she is hurting, and to let her express her feelings.  The inappropriate
response is to judge what she is saying as factual/non-factual.  We are 
talking feelings here, not thinking.

Give it a try--give it a few tries.  You may be surprised at what happens.

There are times when women (and other "oppressed" people) make accusations.
I think that Janis has done so in some of her defenses to people's reactions.
But the only reason she went to accusations was because the discussion had
already been dragged to "facts" rather than feelings.  When people make
random accusations, ignore the hell out of them--they aren't worth listening to.
But if someone is just "blowing off steam", listen to them.  Don't take it as
information, for it is not that.  Just listen for the feelings, and healing
will happen.  (Probably for both parties.)

Guess what men, you can be healed of your shame and guilt!  If you take the time
to listen to women's pain, you will *know* that you are part of the solution,
not part of the problem.

Disclaimer: this is not a slam on anyone--anyone!  This is a suggestion for the
healing of men, based on my experiences of healing me.  It is not the perfect
way to say it.  It is not what people want to hear.  It is not the one simple
solution to all of sexism.  It is a step--one step.  Take it for what it's
worth, but please, take it, try it, and see what happens.

              Merry meet, merry part, merry meet again,
                               Br'anArthur

Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)