Newsgroups: talk.philosophy.misc

In talk.philosophy.misc, cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) writes:

> In article <10190035@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM> daq@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Doug Quarnstrom) writes:
> >In talk.philosophy.misc, cash@convex.com (Peter Cash) writes:
> 
> Apparently not. But when somebody gives me a paragraph like the one quoted
> above, I can either ignore him, or mutter darkly to myself, "Now what could
> this fellow be thinking?" If I then construct a position I attribute to the
> other person, I'm not trying to malign him--I'm trying to understand him.
> (All right, I'll admit I was upset by the "bullshit", and got somewhat more
> offensive in my reply than I should have. I apologize for this offensive
> tone.)  I'm developing a position that I think _might_ be his--a position
> that he can, of course, deny. And if he denies it, then I'll come to better
> understand what his position really is.

This is fair enough.  The war of words can be effective in gaining
information.  In fact, my original post was deliberately provocative.

> 
> And it seems to have worked in this case. Really, you must admit that you
> were more articulate this time around, no? We seem to pretty much agree on
> the fundamentals. We want justice and equal rights for everybody. Is that
> really surprising?
> 
> But we haven't really talked about the topic of this thread--affirmative
> action. As I outlined in a previous article, I believe that affirmative
> action (defined as a policy of preferential treatment for a particular
> ethnic or "racial" group) is unjust. It's unjust for exactly the same
> reason as "affirmative action" by the Ku Klux Klan is unjust--it simply
> isn't right to base hiring decisions on criteria of "race" or sex. A
> history of past injustice does not justify another round of injustice. 
> 
> And I still haven't seen a good justification of affirmative action in this
> thread. 

Well, Peter, I really do not deny that affirmative action is based on
an unjust principal.  But we, as a society do not really seem to
have found any effective ways to engender the idea of social justice,
that is treating everyone equally, or at least giving everyone an
equal chance.  This is not to say that I think all individuals are
equally capable, but, again, corporate data, for whatever reason,
shows artificial ceilings on the advancement of women and minorities.

You and I can agree until we are blue in the face that AA is not, in
itself just, however, I do not assume out of hand as you seem to
that an unjust events cannot lead to justice.  I still grant the
POSSIBITLY (not the probability or the surety) that this kind of
agitation could, in the very long run, produce real attitude changes
that will effect more real social justice.  It is just as possible
that these policies will have no effect at all or backlash and
have a negative effect.

Regardless, affirmative action seems to be like many things in 
America now.  It is born of the awakening of minorities to their
political voice.  They, and their supporters use this voice to
try to effect changes in the system that will be to their advantage.
There is nothing inherently wrong with this, I suppose, but
it does put a lot of stress on the system.  In arguing over 
AA, we seem to be ignoring the bigger question, a question that
is related to what seems to be the inevitable march of capitalist
democracies to socialism.  The question:  Is this force, where
the minority of have-nots, in concert with sympathisers amongst
the haves, impose their will upon the majority through coersive 
tactics (I am condescending to us objectivist wording) an inevitable
and inescapable fact of capitalist democracies?  If it is, then
we have the option of either tolerating it or suppressing it, and
if it is an inevitable expression of human mass and momentum, what
consequence will suppressing it have?

I am beginning to get the impression that this move toward socialism
is somehing that is based on facts of human nature, and that in
opposing it, we are opposing a very strong force.  I think that
what we ought to be doing in engaging in a discourse that can
create social systems that will allow us to save capitalism from
this pressure.  Capitalistic society is also an expression of
a fact of human existence, but it is opposed by this pressure
from the masses at the bottom of the heirarchy.  Yes, this
situation I describe is somewhat Marxist, but Marx was stupid
enough to deny the realities of capitalistic truth, and he
thought actual communist revolution was inevitable.  He was
clearly wrong, but what seems to be the case, instead, is that
democratic captialistic societies are moving toward socialism.

Affirmative action is a small part of this pressure, and to the
extent that we focus on it alone, we are ingoring more important
questions.


doug


Newsgroups: talk.philosophy.misc