HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sdh4@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (SCOTT DYLAN HARDING)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: My Long Thoughts on Rolls
Date: 27 Jan 93 20:16:34 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University



    I have been paddling for nearly five years now and have tried both the
sweep roll and the C-to-C roll.  I learned to roll before I ever paddled on
moving water.  I taught myself the sweep roll the same day I bought my first
kayak.  Nobody had ever shown me how to roll and I wound up doing a sweep roll
on my own by trial and error.  I soon learned the C-to-C roll and never had to
use the sweep roll on a river.
    The sweep roll is more dangerous because the position it puts you in is
more conducive to a forward shoulder dislocation.  A forceful burst of water
as you are sweeping can pull the ball of your shoulder out of its socket.  The
sweep roll does not allow you to stay in a tightly tucked position as does the
C-to-C roll.  Your body must must move farther away from the boat in order to
extend enough to sweep.  The final disadvantage of the sweep roll is that if
your first attempt fails, you are not automatically set up to try again.
    The C-to-C roll allows you to keep your body tucked up close to the deck
of your kayak, reducing the liklihood of an injury sustained from the river
bottom, rocks, etc.  If you fail on your first attempt, you are automatically
set up to roll again but on the other side of your boat.  This means that if
you flip while sideways in a hole and try to roll upsteam and fail (which is
the likely outcome of trying to roll against the current), you are set up to
roll on the downstream side.
    The hands roll is perhaps the best roll.  I don't advocate throwing your
paddle to hand roll, but the hand roll is often the fastest and perhaps the
safest roll.  Excepting steep creek runs, last summer I did nearly all of my
paddling sans paddle.  Hand paddling gives you more control than you imagine
and allows you to paddle old rivers with a new twist.  Hand rollong is much
faster than any type of paddle rolling since there is essentially no setup
involved.
    If I have time and there is interest, I will post some hand paddling
suggestions.  It really is a lot of fun and probably not as hard as you think.
 You certainly have an advantage when playing in good holes such as Hell Hole
 on the Ocoee.
    Here is my low-down on rolls:
            1.  Don't do a sweep roll; try to learn the C-to-C
            2.  Don't toss your paddle to hand roll except as a last resort
            and only then if you have a stron hand roll.

    That's my $0.02
-- 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott Harding  |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||  Lehigh University
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: M14661@mwvm.mitre.org
Subject: Re: Urban River restrictions
Organization: The MITRE Corporation, McLean VA 22102
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 14:55:11 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.172926.19554@wixer.cactus.org>
doc@wixer.cactus.org (John McClenny) writes:
 
>The Austin (TX) City Council has just passed an emergency ordinance
>restricting access to flooded waters.   Part of the ordinance allows the Fire
>Chief to ban access to Barton Creek during flooding.
>
>Barton Creek is a classic class III pool/drop run which ends in downtown
>Austin.   It is quite scenic and has several nice play spots and interesting
>fairly easy rapids.  Barton is normally a dry creek bed and only runs during
>flood, so this ordinance would effectively ban boating from this creek.
>
>I am trying to learn how other cities manage activity on urban whitewater.
>Any leads ????
>
Here in Washington, DC, some boaters like to run Rock Creek during heavy
rains, when there's enough water.  Rock Creek runs through Rock Creek Park,
as does Rock Creek Parkway, a major commuter route.  Apparently there is no
law against running Rock Creek, but not all police / park service police
no this, and people have occasionaly been stopped.  There is an informal
agreement not to run during rush hours, as rubberneckers tie up traffic, and
this, in turn, could lead to a legal prohibition against running.
 
There was a Washington Post and a Wall Street Journal(!) article on urban
canoeing about a year ago.  You may want to do an electronic search at a
library.
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: tmenten@boi.hp.com (Tom Menten)
Subject: Re: Idaho boating info
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 18:50:33 GMT
Distribution: USA
Organization: Hewlett-Packard / Boise, Idaho
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.4 PL6]

Cliff Wood (cliff@geronimo.eece.unm.edu) wrote:
: I'm considering accepting a position in Boise, Idaho.
: If anyone has some info on clubs in the area and location
: of slalom gates, I'd appreciate any info via e-mail or tele.
: 
: Cliff
: cliff@geronimo.eece.unm.edu
: (303) 541-3164 wk
: (303) 666-8988 hm

No gates, yet.  There are a couple of good places to put them on
the Boise River through town, but it hasn't happened.  We run gates
once a year at the annual rodeo. 


Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: root@ute.Columbia.NCR.COM ()
Subject: Re: kayak self-instruction?
Summary: Learn the C-to-C roll: DON'T lean back!
Organization: NCR Corp, E&M-Columbia, Columbia, SC
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 93 21:48:17 GMT

In article <41710021@hpcvra.cv.hp.com>
   billf@hpcvra.cv.hp.com (Bill Faus) writes:
>3) Head comes up last: Tuck your cheek down against
>   your shoulder and follow the sweeping paddle blade
>   with your eyes.  To exaggerate leaning back, try
>   to end the roll with the back of your head
>   on the rear deck and your eyese looking skyward.

Learn to finish your roll with your torso leaning back and someday a rock
will rip your face off!  I prefer the C-to-C roll; it doesn't leave you
vulnerable to having your face smashed.

Barry Shelton                                        Question Authority!
barry@ute.columbiasc.ncr.com                   Resist much, obey little.

Standard disclaimer.

Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: stamer@fang.att.com (Greg Stamer)
Subject: Re: kayak self-instruction?
Organization: AT&T Tax Systems Development, Maitland FL
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 22:02:06 GMT

Bill Faus writes:
>learn the motions of a roll in a small, narrow, whitewater
                                         ^^^^^^???
>kayak you can move on to those barges they call sea kayaks.
                                ^^^^^^

... Stinking Barges!! who are you kiddin' Bill! ;^)

As one who enjoys both whitewater and sea kayaking, I suggest that
before you check all sea kayaks into the fat farm, try a performance
design.  Once you wedge yourself into a 19-21 inch wide, 17-19+ foot
long, fast, needle of a boat your tune will change.

My favorite sea kayak (Anas Acuta) is 20.5" wide, 17' long, and has
about the same volume as a Mirage. This boat rolls so easily that it is
my first choice for teaching students how to roll.  Of course if the
student can't fit their fat backside into such a narrow hull, one of my 
whitewater *barges* will just have to do ;^)
                                                \   O
                                       \__________\/ )__________/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Greg Stamer          Florida Sea Kayaking Association / Coconut Kayakers
stamer@fang.att.com  
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: jwmorris@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Jeff Morris)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Which Roll????
Date: 22 Jan 93 16:09:16 GMT
Reply-To: jwmorris@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Jeff Morris)
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD

In rec.boats.paddle, doc@wixer.cactus.org (John McClenny) writes:
>About 4 years ago I took a 4-day Advanced Ocoee class from NOC.  In this
>class was a 16 year old from the midwest who was a pretty good boater who had
>absolutely no paddle roll - didn't even try.   However, he had a bomb proof
>hands roll... After the first day the class figured out the routine - when he
>flipped he would ALWAYS hand roll up, but the paddle would float away.  By
>the second day we were trained to chase the paddle and ignore the boater.

While a hands-only is neat and is certainly useful when you've either
lost your paddle or you're surfing without it, it's not better than
a paddle roll because, in whitewater you could get in worse trouble
in a boat with no paddle than swimming.  Tossing one's paddle to effect
a roll would be a bad habit to develop.
From: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Whitewater Rafting in '96 Olympics?
Date: 22 Jan 93 03:01:51 GMT
Organization: Ditka Policy Institute

In article <schultz.727668878@beagle> schultz@boulder.Colorado.EDU (Dennis Schultz) writes:
>	Was it just a wild rumor or is there some possibility that
>whitewater rafting would be included in the 1996 summer Olympics.  If so,
>I need to start training now.  Where's my beer anyway?

Well, yes, it will be included, but due to budgetary considerations,
it will be combined with the equestrian steeplechase event.  The ensuing
combination of fear-crazed horses, adrenalized paddlers, and strainer-laden
aquatic obstacle course promises fun for the whole family!
Planned commentators: Sarah Bernhardt, Hunter S. Thompson.

---Rsk

p.s. Be sure to include Spud! Beer on your training table.
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: doc@wixer.cactus.org (John McClenny)
Subject: Which Roll????
Organization: Real/Time Communications
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 17:08:50 GMT



OK net.kayakers.   A roll poll....

Which style of roll do you use ? ( C-to-C, screw, sweep ? )
How did you learn it ( Class, friend, book, divine inspiration, etc.?) and
when, and where ?

(An aside)
About 4 years ago I took a 4-day Advanced Ocoee class from NOC.  In this
class was a 16 year old from the midwest who was a pretty good boater who had
absolutely no paddle roll - didn't even try.   However, he had a bomb proof
hands roll... After the first day the class figured out the routine - when he
flipped he would ALWAYS hand roll up, but the paddle would float away.  By
the second day we were trained to chase the paddle and ignore the boater.
From: brianj@bedrock.cs.umd.edu (Brian Johnson)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Which Roll????
Date: 24 Jan 93 02:08:29 GMT
Organization: Computer Science, Univ. of MD, College Park, MD 20742
In-reply-to: mfox@mal-s2.gatech.edu's message of 22 Jan 93 16:43:22 GMT

I taught someone how to hand roll on his first night at our University
pool rolling sessions.  He was in good shape and had the required
attitude - gung ho and clueless about kayaking.  Started by holding
his hands and having him practice hip snaps, progressed to kick board
rolls (with my hands underneath to start), then half kickboard rolls,
and then hand rolls!  Only on one side and he still didn't know what
to do with a paddle but he was well on his way - and I was as pleased
as he should have been.  One of the other new, less gung ho paddlers
that I had been helping for about a month was flabergasted (and very
quite).  One of my few proud moments in kayak instruction.  In general
kayak instruction makes me cold and bored. 

If you're bored in the pool try this with your plastic barge:
1) pull the center pillar out of the front of your boat
2) fill boat with a enough water to do a bow squirt 
	(a heavy friend can help here:-)
3) watch front of boat collapse on legs and air whoosh out between
	your torso and spary skirt, spray skirt will then seal down
	between legs.
4) now you have a squirt boat:-)

Brian
  new Ph.D in Human Factors/Visualization seeks work:-)
--
Brian Johnson                                       Computer Science Department
brianj@cs.umd.edu                                        University of Maryland
(301) 405-2725                                           College Park, Md 20742

  ...there are no strangers in this world, only friends who have never met...
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: vangsnes@cae.wisc.edu (Jeffrey Vangsness)
Subject: Cartop Carrier for Jeep Wrangler
Organization: U of Wisconsin-Madison College of Engineering
Distribution: usa
Date: 28 Jan 93 16:36:15 CST

I am considering buying a new vehicle and am looking at the
latest version of the old Jeep CJ-series, I believe they
are called Wranglers now.  

Assuming that the vehicle has a hardtop, does anyone know
of any cartop carriers available that would allow me to
transport my Canoes and Bicycles?  It is my understanding
that the Jeep does NOT have rain gutters other than
immediately above the door.

If anyone knows of a convenient system or a solution to
this problem, please let me know.  If I can't carry
my boats, the vehicle won't do me much good. Thanx

JD Vangsness
vangsnes@cae.wisc.edu



Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: leigh@ssd.comm.mot.com (Todd Leigh)
Subject: Re: Which Roll????
Organization: Motorola LMPS
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 16:32:29 GMT
Summary: It depends
Keywords: kayaks rolling

>Which style of roll do you use ? ( C-to-C, screw, sweep ? )
>How did you learn it ( Class, friend, book, divine inspiration, etc.?) and
>when, and where ?

My roll (and I would guess a lot of people's roll) is neither a pure C-to-C nor
a pure sweep.  It depends on where I am at the time.

Theoretically, I use a C-to-C roll, and when I am demostrating to beginners,
that is what I do.  When I am on the river, though, I usually hit the hipsnap
about the same time as the paddle starts moving from the setup to the sweep.

I know in my head that it is not actually faster that way (when I took an NOC
class from Sue Magness, we timed sweep rolls and Sue's perfect C-to-C, and hers
was actually quicker), and that the probability of success is decreased, but in
whitewater I'm always a little impatient.

I learned to roll in a Chicago Whitewater Association pool session at Conant
High School in Schaumburg, IL in October, 1990.  I was given a little
instruction by a friend at Illinois Beach State Park in a sea kayak the summer
before, but just couldn't get it then.  The first night in the pool they didn't
give us paddles, so after a little refresher work on hip snaps by myself, I 
hands-rolled the boat.  When we finally did get paddles a few weeks later, I
had a paddle roll after a couple of minutes of coaching in getting the paddle
to the right spot.
-- 
Todd Leigh - Motorola Inc. Land-Mobile Products Sector - leigh@ssd.comm.mot.com
From: bartle@vulcan.resmel.bhp.com.au
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: kayak self-instruction?
Date: 25 Jan 93 15:38:48 +1000
Organization: BHP Research - Melbourne Laboratories

In article <1993Jan21.164817.24870@ncrcae.ColumbiaSC.NCR.COM>, root@ute.Columbia.NCR.COM writes:
> In article <41710021@hpcvra.cv.hp.com>
>    billf@hpcvra.cv.hp.com (Bill Faus) writes:
>>3) Head comes up last: Tuck your cheek down against
>>   your shoulder and follow the sweeping paddle blade
>>   with your eyes.  To exaggerate leaning back, try
>>   to end the roll with the back of your head
>>   on the rear deck and your eyese looking skyward.
> 
> Learn to finish your roll with your torso leaning back and someday a rock
> will rip your face off!  I prefer the C-to-C roll; it doesn't leave you
> vulnerable to having your face smashed.

Yes!!

SO -- it is a good idea to have a HELMET on which the part which covers
your forehead is at least 2cm out from your head.

I find it easier to roll anyway if I am leaning OUT SIDEWAYS from the boat
holding the paddle as far out perpendicularly to the boat as possible.

My first sweep is a forwards sweep, then as I'm coming up I do a reverse 
sweep which brings me up leaning forwards, and with the paddle out in front
of me, and in a position ready to react quickly to anything new on the river.

BTW -- What does C-to-C stand for?
                                      -PeterB
From: jhgillespie@ucdavis.edu (John Gillespie)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Hawaiian Outrigger Canoe Paddling
Date: 27 Jan 93 16:26:05 GMT
Followup-To: rec.boats.paddle
Organization: Center for Population Biology, UCD

In article <1k1jeaINNlip@hpscit.sc.hp.com>, dc4232@nado.hp.com (Don Couch)
wrote:
> If anyone wishes to find out more or just chat, let's start a new thread.

I've been fascinated by these canoes for some time, having seen them first
in
Hawaii and then having read Tommy Holmes' book.  So, some questions:

1. Where are the No. CA clubs and where do they paddle?  I was at the
ill-fated SeaTrek regatta several years ago where about half of
the Hawaiian canoes swamped or sank in the race around Alcatrez.  From
that experience (I was running the computer and helping with the land-
based rescue coordination) I concluded that these canoes don't do well
in steep chop.  Is that true?

2. Is there a sea-worthy single outrigger canoe that can be paddled
in typical No. Cal ocean conditions (whatever that may mean).  I enjoy
paddling a surf ski which I view as ideal for our ocean, but, being an
old canoe paddler, have always wanted to try an outrigger.

3. Do Hawaiian canoe paddlers paddle a variety of South Pacific outrigger
canoes?  Are people interested in making copies of canoes from different
islands as, say, they are in making kayaks typical of different regions in
the Arctic?

Hopefully these questions will stimulate some discussion.
From: mfox@mal-s2.gatech.edu (Marshall Fox)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Which Roll????
Date: 22 Jan 93 16:43:22 GMT
Organization: Georgia Tech Res. Inst., Modeling & Analysis Lab

Some people advocate learning to hand roll before learning to paddle roll (a
kayak). The advantages are that there are fewer movements to synchronize, and
you can concentrate on hipsnap. In addition, it's hard to bring your head
up too quickly when you're using both hands to slap the water.

I've seen people learn to handroll their first night in a kayak. They can
learn the paddle setup later. The nice thing is, these folks sometimes have
crummy setups, and they roll anyway, and roll FAST. 

I know a guy who claims he could hand roll a canoe before he could roll one
with a paddle. This is hard to imagine.

--Marshall
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: doc@wixer.cactus.org (John McClenny)
Subject: Re: Ozarks
Organization: Real/Time Communications
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 17:57:54 GMT

Donald Bowen (donb@crash.cts.com) wrote:
: 	Does any one have any good suggestions of guide books, rivers,
: etc for teh Ozarks of southern Missouri?
:
: 	DonB
"OZARK WHITEWATER - A Paddler's Guide to the Mountain SStreams of Arkansas
and Missouri" by Tom Kennon.  Published 1989 by Menasha Ridge Press, PO BOX
59257, Birmingham, Alabama 35259-9257.   Quite good, with descriptions of
rivers from class I-IV.   Has good descriptions, warnings, directions, and
scenery ratings.   Available at many outdoor stores within 2 days drive of
the Cossatot River....
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: chris@chinook.atd.ucar.edu (Chris Webster)
Subject: Re: Which Roll????
Reply-To: chris@chinook.atd.ucar.edu
Organization: Research Aviation Facility, NCAR, Boulder, CO
Distribution: na
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 14:46:16 GMT

doc@wixer.cactus.org (John McClenny) writes:
>
>Which style of roll do you use ? ( C-to-C, screw, sweep ? )

Depends on the water.  In big water, I have a slow but sure roll
that resembles a CtoC, but my face isn't on the deck.  In creeks &
technical/hard water, what ever gets me up the fastest, which is
probably a screw roll.   (What is a sweep roll?)

>How did you learn it ( Class, friend, book, divine inspiration, etc.?) and
>when, and where ?

From a book in 1983 on a pond in New Hampshire.

--Chris
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
From: stamer@fang.att.com (Greg Stamer)
Subject: Kayak Polo (was Re: Rolling sessions)
Organization: AT&T Tax Systems Development, Maitland FL
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 14:46:11 GMT

>A much better way is to play CANOE POLO -- which we do all over Australia,
>New Zealand, Europe,...

Okay I'm game .... anyone care to post the rules?
                                                \   O
                                       \__________\/ )__________/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Greg Stamer          Florida Sea Kayaking Association / Coconut Kayakers
stamer@fang.att.com 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: rsk@gynko.circ.upenn.edu (Rich Kulawiec)
Newsgroups: rec.boats.paddle
Subject: Re: Ozarks
Date: 24 Jan 93 14:45:02 GMT
Organization: Ditka Policy Institute

In article <donb.727746169@crash.cts.com> donb@crash.cts.com (Donald Bowen) writes:
>	Does any one have any good suggestions of guide books, rivers,
>etc for teh Ozarks of southern Missouri?

There's a Menasha Ridge Press guidebook for the area -- whose title
escapes me at the moment -- that's probably pretty good, since their
standard seem to be pretty high.  Two other books are:

	Missouri Ozark Waterways, by Oz Hawksley, available from
	the Missouri Department of Conservation, PO Box 180,
	Jefferson City, Missouri 65102.  Worth getting because
	it's cheap ($2.50), has decent maps, and good mile-by-mile
	descriptions of bridges, campgrounds, springs, etc.  I wouldn't
	bet a nickel on the rapid ratings, however.

	The Floater's Guide to Missouri, by Andy Cline, published
	by Falcon Press, ISBN 1-56044-108-9, about $10.  Falcon
	has a tollfree number (800-582-2665) and will send you
	a catalog on request.  This maps in this book aren't as good,
	but the general descriptions seem to be much more accurate.

I'd recommend the St. Francis River for whitewater in the spring, and
the Current or Black Rivers for scenery in the summer.  Note that the
number of rented canoes on most of the easy rivers is best classified
as "huge" on weekends between May and September.  There are also some
very nice sections of the Meramec and Courtois.

One final note: if you haven't paddled the Ozarks before, you may not
be aware of the presence of numerous "low water bridges".  Many of these
are quickly built by private landowners and don't show up on the pages
of any of the guidebooks; some of them don't make it through the
spring runoff period and turn into heaps of junk waiting for unwary
paddlers.  Even those which are listed in the books and which manage
to stay in one piece can be a nasty hazard at the right (wrong) water
levels.  It's a good practice to be constantly watching for them.

Finally, a note about the big-water rivers, e.g. the Missouri and
the Mississippi: try them only if you don't mind water-skiers, speedboats,
jetskis, and commercial barge traffic.  Oh, and occasional lock-and-dam.

---Rsk