HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: UCCXDEM <UCCXDEM@MVS.UCC.OKSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Peers-in-training
Organization: Oklahoma State University Computer Center, Stillwater OK
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 21:02:00 GMT

Greetings and Blessings to all,

 Gary/Hal Raeburn wrote
>Just to expand the discussion of protege(e)s a bit, and to bring back a
>bit of the fireside-chat atmosphere...what is it that you believe to be
>the important factor in becoming/choosing an apprentice/squire/protege?
>
>And for those who are on the other end of the belt..why did you accept
>your Peer's offer, and what do you hope to accomplish in the end?
>
>This is intended for a general discussion, not a gripe session on Peers
>or a/s/p's.

For me, being both squire and an apprentice, the biggest factor was just
plain exposure. The apprentice part needed a little more expertise from
a Laurel in the A&S, someone to be able to ask for help from, to be
able to get good constructive critisims from, and to be taught the how
what and were of A&S in the SCA. As a squire, I have received help and
instruction on things besides fighting. Being an apprentice helps let
the Laurels know that you are interested in becoming one of their
Peers and they should assist in your training. The same is basically
true for being a squire. It has been said that the red belt is not
a status symbol, but a symbol of a relationship and also a target.
It was a one time in this Kingdom, that people wanting to be squires/
apprentices/proteges did not ask to become so. That practice seems
to be changing here. I don't now how for sure the Peers know that you
want to become their s/a/p, but when I ask to squire to a local Knight
he said yes and that he had been talking about me to other Knights.
Thats my nickels worth.
                                        chus
                                        Marke

**********************************************************************
David Mann                              H.L. Marke von Mainz
Stillwater                              Mooneschadowe
Oklahoma                                Ansteorra
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Rialto
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 17:43:54

00 Jan 00  05:07:00
In their best Jack Nicholson voice, Dennis O'Connor said to All;

 DO> From this comes the quote "What news on the Rialto?", uttered by
 DO> the merchant from _The Merchant of Venice_. The merchant was concerned
 DO> that his ships get back to Venice before his debt to Shylock came due.
 DO> From this quote comes the nickname of rec.org.sca ne alt.sca.

lo'
   Oh!  Now it makes sense.   BTW, mentioning merchants awaiting ship, you do
realize that that is the motivation for Galalio making the telescope.   If you
could see what ship were about to port, before they ported, you could adjust
your prices before they got there.
                                                       ~ Aindries


... The Devil take the men that killed the dream that died too soon,
 * Origin: Calontir -- We Deliver. (1:291/19.0)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Subject: Re: Heraldic Questions...
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 16:11:34 GMT
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research Center

Greetings from Arval!  Gwenllian wrote:

> We are denying the Hungarians one specific charge -- which is only found
> in their culture -- not the remainder of their armory. 

I'm afraid you are incorrect.  Lord Laurel discussed this charge in the
cover letter to his latest LoAR and observed that the green mount on a blue
field is found throughout Europe.  He returned a submission using it,
despite extensive documentation.  His argument, which I find moderately
more palatable than Tadhg's (though no more convincing), is that he must be
careful not to allow too many exceptions to the standard style rules, lest
the rule system become too complex to be usable.  This is the "poor, dumb,
local herald" argument, which starts by insulting our officers and populace
in assuming that they are too stupid to understand that a complicated art
cannot be reduced to idiot-proof rules, and continues to insult the entire
Society by concluding that the only solution is to reduce everything to the
lowest common denominator.

Your statement, Gwenllian, is also somewhat deceptive, as it suggests that
the elimination of the green mount + blue field is only a minor
inconvenience for SCAdians with Hungarian personae.  That combination
occurs in well over 80% of all recorded Hungarian armory (according to
research by Stefan Laskowski).  The effect is comparable to telling people
with English persona that they MUST put color on color: It forbids them the
most appropriate practice for their personae.

===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle@watson.ibm.com
From: Godfrey de Shipbrook <jlee@smylex.UUCP>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Being aware that one is doing Peerage-quality work
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 93 08:17:17 EST
Organization: Shipbrook Software  (Tampa, FL)

Greetings from Godfrey!

Mistress Marian Greenleaf writes:
> 
> I think that people who are doing work *generally* comparable to those
> who have received Peerages for similar efforts, tend to be aware of it,
> whatever area of endeavor they are pursuing.  This is a generalization
> which certainly may not apply to certain individuals.  While it may
> *appear* that it's easier to rank your work, using that of others as a
> yardstick, if you are a fighter or an artisan as opposed to an
> administrator,

`Appear' is the key word here; individuals' mileage may vary.  I knew
one gentle who expected a Laurel because he did two calligraphy hands
very well; at the other end of the spectrum, I've known others (myself
included) who can look at their works and see nothing but the minor
flaws in execution.

`Ranking one's work' in the service field also isn't always easy.  I
was stunned when a Pelican asked me to take his belt and become his 
protege; not only didn't I think the work I was doing at events was
anything out of the ordinary, but I also didn't believe (and still 
don't) that I had the qualities of a Peer.  He disagreed; go figure.

+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Net:  Jeff Lee / jlee@smylex.uucp / jlee%smylex.uucp@tscs.tscs.com     |
| SCA:  Lord Godfrey de Shipbrook / Wyvernwood, Trimaris                 |
|       Per pale azure and argent, a clarion counterchanged or and gules |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
    "The only thing that helps me maintain my slender grip on reality
    is the friendship I share with my collection of singing potatoes."
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: icklinck@cayley.uwaterloo.ca (Ian "Rhys" Klinck)
Subject: Re: Who's Next?
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 15:51:05 GMT

In article <1993Jan26.181428.28211@progress.com> schuldy@progress.COM (Mark Schuldenfrei) writes:
>Eirik asked if it is illegal for the same person to be Exchequer and Seneschal
>of a Barony, according to Corpora, the West Kingdom, or other Kingdoms.
>
>Interesting.  I can cite chapter and verse [1] for the SCA, Kingdom's
>and Principalities about the separation of the two, but I cannot find a
>requirement in Corpora or the By-Laws about that requirement for local
>groups.  This is disappointing.  There may be such a provision in the
>Corporate Policies and Procedures manuals, but I don't have those to
>hand, and don't know them well enough to be sure.
>
>As for the East Kingdom, the laws strongly imply that the two positions
>are separate, and specifically allows small groups to combine them, but
>it never says that they must be held by separate people in
>Baronies/Provinces.
>
>	Tibor

From the Seneschal's letter in the February _Pale_ (Middle Kingdom Newsletter):

"Seneschals, please note! You are responsible for your group's funds if your
group has no exchequer."

Hmmm...

Rhys
From: jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Getting your corrections right
Date: 23 Jan 93 03:46:47 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.sca
Organization: The Rialto

Greetings, all, from Angharad.  The following is neither a claim
about substance in the past argument, nor an attempt to flame.  I
am just supplying a quotation for which Mr. O'Connor called, and
answering a question about presentation of facts.  Still, anyone as 
heartily bored as I am by now with this entire business may want to 
page ahead.

In responding to Hossein, Dennis O'Connor writes,

>It's too bad you didn't quote my original article. ( Why not ? )
>It would make the distinction more clear, since it DEFINES
>what I mean by "fanatic" in this particular case. My definition
>makes the assertion you challenge axiomatic. It defines fanatics
>as those who are intolerant. Mavens don't figure into it at all.

I suspect Hossein didn't quote Mr. O'Connor's first posting because 
it is less useful than Mr.  O'Connor seems to recall.  The following 
is the entire body of Mr. O'Connor's first posting:

>jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter) writes:
>] [ essentially, that the mishmash of times and places destroys the
>] "romance" for authenticity fanatics ]
>
>Analogy:
>The presence of minorities undoubtedly destroys the "romance"
>for many people, few of whom are in the SCA fortunaetely.
>
>The SCA does not need to solve either of these problems. 
>The people who let the mere presence of Anachronism at
>a Society for Creative Anachronism disturd their enjoyment
>need to find their own solution. 

There is no definition of "fanatic" here: only a reference to a
posting of mine.  I don't think my article would be much help,
since it neither uses the word "fanatic" nor mentions anyone of
the kind Mr. O'Connor describes.

Perhaps Mr. O'Connor should review the postings to date, before trying
to correct others on a content he appears to have become confused over.

I have pulled out of this discussion in terms of substance: after an
email exchange, I don't think Mr. O'Connor is listening, and I doubt
anyone else wants to.  Anyone who actually wants to hear any more about
this from me is most heartily welcome to email me on the subject.

In Service to the Society,

-- Angharad/Terry
From: 00mjstum@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu (Matthew J. Stum)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: period fighting styles
Date: 22 Jan 93 14:24:55 GMT
Organization: Widget Enterprises

Greetings unto the Rialto!

I'll throw in my $0.0175 while the discussion is still hot...

1) Hands:  I haven't seen that much problem with blocking with the
hands around here.  I must admit, though, that most of our guys like
basket hilts on their swords <shudder>, although they don't use them
to the degree that was mentioned earlier.  I personally don't like
baskets because it ruins the "feel" of my fighting persona (kind of
Vikingish... I haven't narrowed it down yet).

I _have_ sustained a broken pinky (at least I think it was broken)
when I attempted two-swords for the first time w/o anything 'cept
hockey gloves over my hand.  Yeah yeah, I know... it's not gonna
happen again.  :)  I _do_ instinctively block with my hands during
two-swords and any kind of pole-arm work, but I'm sure in time I could
train myself not to.

I personally wouldn't mind the option of saying that my arm was out of
action if my hand is hit.  <shrug>  It makes as much sense to me as
the groin shot: "Never EVER aim there... but if you're hit, then it's
good."

2) Shields:  Well, this kind of back on the topic of hands again, but
why does S&S work REQUIRE you to block with your hands???  I block
with my shield!  ;-)   And yes, my blade quite a bit too... but I
don't think I've ever taken more than one or two hand-shots while
fighting S&S.  And yes, I'm one of those crazies who actually _likes_
S&S, specially since I finished my first center-grip... my defense has
improved _much_.

But I also agree that it's sad that we somehow can't re-create the
dynamics of a shield against real steel.  For one, a pole-arm,
specially a maul, or a mace is gonna either smash the shield with a
couple of blows, or smash the arm underneath by the impact.  Either
way, the effects are the same. And then there's the idea that the
sword is allowed to sink into the grain of the wood and then the
shield is jerked one way or another to disarm the swordsman.

3) Taking prisoners:  Wouldn't disabling the arm be the _most_
effective way of subduing your opponent with the least risk of killing
him?  (Given that we're not allowed any grappling tactics in the SCA.)
I've also not seen the problem of people using their arm as a defense
because fighters don't aim for the arms for chivalrous reasons...
quite the opposite around here, actually.

And besides, we're all _allowed_ to be noblemen, but that doesn't mean
we've all chosen that persona... I don't think the Vikings or Celts
cared much for taking prisoners...'cept the women-folk... :)

Words from a newbie,
Gwydion

-- 
Matt Stum                    Gwydion ap Myrddin       Ball State University
00mjstum@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu   Shire of Afonlyn, MK     Muncie, IN  USA
From: Beth.Appleton@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Beth Appleton)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Authentic (and dates used)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 14:39:14

 AA> Maybe I'm showing my age, but whatever happened to 
 AA> the cut-off date of 1650?
 AA> What do I do with all my Stuart garb?
 The cut-off date of 1650 was never "real" -- it was a slop-factor 
 which unfortunately made it into a newcomers guide.  The BoD finally 
 came out and clarified what they meant by "pre-17th ce", i.e., pre-
 1601.  When they did that, they said that those folks who had started 
 personas that were actually post-period didn't have to change -- just 
 that no-one should start up a new post-1601 persona.
    That said, I've been wishing they hadn't left it open like that. 
 The newcomers are still being confused, because they still aren't being 
 referred to Corpora.
     Gwenllian Cwmystwyth

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: icklinck@cayley.uwaterloo.ca (Ian "Rhys" Klinck)
Subject: Re: What is a protege? (was  Re: Being aware...)
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 15:54:21 GMT

In article <1993Jan27.004037.26919@watson.ibm.com> mittle@watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman) writes:
>
>You seem to have the notion that a protege/apprentice/squire has to
>demonstrate skill in order to "earn" his position.  I've run into that
>notion frequently, across the SCA, often tied to the idea that these
>relationships confer rank on the dependent (which idea I certanly don't
>attribute to you, Godfrey).  I find this a peculiar notion.
>
>Why do people think this happens?  Is it a misunderstanding caused by the
>behavior of some/all peers?  Is it built into the system?  
>

I think it's from the (also mistaken) idea that protegees/apprentices/squires
are specifically "Pelicans/Laurels/Knights in training", and that you have to
be a squire to become a knight, etc...

No matter how often I hear someone (and usually a Peer) explain that this is
by no means the case, popular belief remains otherwise...

Rhys
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ae766@yfn.ysu.edu (David Sanders)
Subject: Re:  Currach
Organization: Youngstown State/Youngstown Free-Net
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 14:20:07 GMT


Greetings to all, especially Cearr MacBrendan, from Vajk!

MacBrendan writes:

  >  I have been asked by a friend to research a type of
  >  boat used by the Irish and Anglo-Saxons.  I am just
  >  beginning the work and was wondering if anyone could
  >  recommend some reference material.

Samuel Eliot Morison has written two volumes about the early
voyages to North America.  Morison was both historian and
sailor, and had a penchant for detail.  I have forgotten
the main title, but the two volumes are subtitled
"The Northern Voyages" (the first) and "The Southern Voyages"
(the second).  There is a chapter about the voyages of St.
Brendan, and in that chapter he covered the construction of
a curragh (as I have seen it spelled).

Morison does not go into enough detail to build a scale model
but he gives references for everything he writes, and it is
these references which will likely be of help to you and your
friend.

A note:  a scale model is probably unnecessary.  While some
curraghs were large, say 40 feet in length, some were
no bigger than a modern row-boat.  They are said to ride
the waves like a cork, with almost no draft.  As a sailor,
white-water rafter, and canoer (I have taught canoeing, and
have done white-water in an open canoe), I can tell you that
such a quality is a great advantage in rough seas.  The 
curragh was nearly unsinkable, if well-made, and if I
correctly interpret what information Morison has given, it
was probably extremely stable, i.e., unlikely to capsize.

Good luck on your research of the details.

Vajk

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: CS341A050@Husky1.StMarys.Ca (Loki)
Subject: Informal survey results
Organization: St. Mary's University, Halifax, N.S., Canada
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 17:29:53 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.13.SMU

Greetings to the Rialto.

   A few good points have been made against the century survey idea I
proposed. Bjalfi said that it was more biased than I suggested, in that it
would select only those Rialtans who were interested in answering surveys;
this is true. Also, a few people gave their lords and ladies' centuries as
well; these are listed in the non-net column. However, in any case, here
are the results, biased though they may be:

Century   Count  Non-net
  17        1
  16        6
  15        3       2
  14        5
  13        2
  12        6
  11        1
  10        5       1
   9        4
   8        1
   7        0
   6        1
generic     1   (One individual requested to be counted as having not
                 chosen a century yet. I suspect that this low number is a
                 result of bias in the survey question; I think there are
                 more generic SCAdians than the survey would indicate.)

   Or, in graphic form:


              X               X       *
              X   *   X       X       X
              X   *   X       X       X
              X   X   X       X       X
              X   X   X   X   X       X
          X   X   X   X   X   X   X   X   X   X       X       X
Century  17  16  15  14  13  12  11  10  09  08  07  06    generic

   X's indicate Rialtan answers and asterisks indicate people off the net.

   Please not: I am not a statistician. While I do have an interest in
statistics, I am no expert. However, even I do think that this is a tiny
sample size; I was hoping for a bit more actually. But I think it does show
some trends; the end of period is very popular, and the 10th century seems
to be the most popular of the pre-feudal time period. This is interesting,
for someone whose interests lie in 10th century Irish-Norse culture...

   A number of people sent in their cultures as well. I may collect and put
together a similar listing for that; I *highly* doubt I will post it tho as
I don't think I got the same cultural background more than twice (except
'Viking' and 'English'). I was sort of expecting that in fact; the SCA is
extremely diverse culturally, and in fact that was the reason why I didn't
put that question in the original survey question.

   Anybody who's interested in a cultural list, email me. I'll add you to a
mailing list and just email the results out directly.

         Loki         | cs341a050@husky1.stmarys.ca | Brynjolfr Myrkjartanarson
 often sysop of TWWOL | DFLEMMIN@SHARK.STMARYS.CA   |    Compaignie Mercurie

Government is essentially immoral.

                 --- Herbert Spenser
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ae766@yfn.ysu.edu (David Sanders)
Subject: Two swords
Organization: Youngstown State/Youngstown Free-Net
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 16:34:44 GMT


Greetings to all, especially David Tallan, from Vajk!

I've been without Net access for a few days, so this
is late.

David wrote, in response to my comments on his post:

David >>>  All I can say is that it must have been pretty
David >>>  esoteric not to have shown up in the _hundreds_ of
David >>>  manuscript illuminations of fighters I've seen.
Vajk  >> This is not true, although it seems that only serious
Vajk  >> researchers know it.  It is common sense that if
Vajk  >> something was common it was approximately proportionally
Vajk  >> reproduced in the art and literature of the time.

David responds:

David > However, it is important to look at the CONTEXT.

Yes, that is VERY important.  So we agree here.

David continues:
      > It seems most reasonable to me that...

Now, this is exactly what I was cautioning against.  The
fact that something seems reasonable is NOT a valid reason
for accepting it without question.  Common sense and reason
are usually based on the data at hand.  The problem comes
when the data that is NOT at hand changes the way the
whole thing is viewed. On the SURFACE, many things seem
reasonable, but it is only when ALL the pertinent data are
known that we can really draw logical or rational conclusions.
Or, rather, we can do it at any stage, but must be careful
not to draw conclusions which are unwarranted by the 
information at hand.

Unfortunately, this is much of the problem with the lack of
authenticity in the SCA.  Much is proposed as authentic,
when in fact it is based on a superficial analysis of the
little data the proponents had at hand.

I don't mind too much if someone is not wearing authentic
garb, or practicing the arts and sciences in a way that is
not authentic.  Contrary to some belief (probably because I DO
like research), I am as much into the "flavor" and 
"atmosphere" as anything else in the SCA.

However, I do object when someone states that a thing is
authentic when they have not done sufficient research to
warrant that conclusion.  There is nothing wrong with
saying that you don't know if something is authentic or not!

My comments were not aimed directly at David.  He simply
provided a good example of what I wrote about.  Many people
do it, even I!  But that does not mean that we should just
go ahead and accept it!

David later wrote:

   > Arew [sic] you seriously trying to suggest that the
   > artist would make the armour and equipment appropriate
   > to his time and place, but suddenly diverge and paint
   > people with sword and shield when most people were really
   > using two swords.  I beg your pardon but I think not!

No, I wasn't trying to say that.  I'm not even saying that
you are right or wrong in your conclusions.  I am simply
sounding a note of caution about the way those conclusions
were arrived at (at least so far as what you wrote here).

Vajk
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: V'tavian follies
From: kgassner@vax1.umkc.edu
Date: 25 Jan 93 15:01:22 CST
Organization: University of Missouri - Kansas City
NNTP-Posting-Host: vax1.umkc.edu


Greetings!

> Someone mentioned that the _Pikestaff_  requires STREET ADDRESSES for event 
> sites before the flyer will be published.  _The Mews_ (Calontir's Newletter, 
> where V'tavia is located) also requires street addresses.  Apparantly, 
> V'tavia's flyer slipped by.  

No, that's missing the point. The flyer WAS in the Mews. There WAS a street
adress in the flyer. It was EASY to find the place, because there were also
signs leading there.

The event had been moved.

	Ekkehart von Wartstein

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca