From: johnsd2@vccnw01.its.rpi.edu.its1 (Daniel Norman Johnson)
Newsgroups: alt.atheism
Subject: Re: <None>
Date: 13 Nov 92 00:04:24 GMT
Reply-To: johnsd2@vccnw01.its.rpi.edu.its1
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.

In article 1@cubldr.colorado.edu, miller_jh@cubldr.colorado.edu () writes:
[deletia- Father of all Deletias, this time]

>
>///BOY! Major deletions here I would guess! 

Really, I did delete a lot! :)

>Actually the DB/Field remark was just a reference o scanning through the
>literally hundreds of entries to see if there's a responne...
>Anyway.....

Ok. Seach by subject name. :)
Use a threaded news readed. :)
Get someone else to do it for you! :)

>Some fair and interesting speculations there, even more question begging in my
>mind though which is good as far as a 'debate' is concerned. (and hopefully
>more fruitful, or at least less useless then the old theistic debate about
>pinhead angels!)

Heh heh.

>It doesn't seem completely logical though that my postulated "Instinct for
>God" is 'merely' a response to an "Awareness of Mortality" or an attempt to
>objectify and rationalize our thoughts and imaginations. If that were the
>dynamic I could conceive of hundreds of other ways of dealing with it that
>wouldn't involve Spirit, God or any other such mechanism.

Im sure you can; so can lots of other people. It has been done. Buddism,
for instance, teaches that no suffering is real if you just understand
it (I think) but its quite clear on one thing: Immortality is OUT. Nothing
lives forever. Taoism doesn't seem to have Spirits or Gods in the sence
you mean, tho I don't pretend to understand it. (whereas I ->do<-
pretend to understand Buddism! :) )

> Yet that does appear to be the "Universal" in all human cultures,

I disagree- but it is more common than some things; but that may
just mean that it works better at consoling our fears than most things,
hence is widely adopted. Also, some religions (Christianity comes to mind)
encourage the believers to spread the faith- with obvious results.

>and that's ignoring for the moment the "archetypes" of the Cross, Mandala,
>Swaztica and other symbols of the Collective Unconcious that emerge in
>widely diverged cultures.

I dont know what a Mandala is, but a Swaztica is not very far removed-
the ancient Germans surely had contact with the ancient Romans. Lots of
it too.

Certainly enough to know about a roman execution technique- or for that
matter a fringe religion.

>Also, the
>"escape from mortality" supposition seems to fail in several specific
>instancers as an "excuse" against an Objective God

It's an attempt to explain the prevelance of superstitious beliefs
about immortality, no more.

> The Norse Gods were
>themselves Mortal, doomed to death themselves ultimately; Yet still they were
>GODS.

All that is required is that the humans have spirits. No more.

> There are many religions without an objective afterlife or surcease from
>that primal fear of Death to 'explain' Spirit or God. (Judaism is a classic
>example here) 

I thought YOU were the one who claimed, just above, that this stuff
was Universal? :) I never said it was. My explaination does not
require it to be. Religions also have self propogating properties,
and they explain various (otherwise) unexplainables. These two things
together can help them spread.

Also, my basic thurst was that you can't claim that the existance of
God is the only possible explaination of these beliefs. It certainly
ain't so- one can come up with others (perhaps they are wrong, but still).

Anyway, its a bit of a trap. If you assume superstitions must be believed
because if they were not true, they wouldn't be in circulation, well then
don't go stepping on sidewalk cracks. :)

>Yes, Logic and Rationality are our "best" tools here, if only to serve as a
>common language. But there also IS an Ir-rational aspect to the Universe that
>can de denied, or even precisely defined.

I can accept this, but not without a better arguement than this. Why
not start by defining it? Otherwise we aren't actually talking about
anything, as far as I can see.

> In that area may be found some
>interesting "Truths", if not just facts. 
>Sufiism as am example of trained, non-linear, intuitive and irrational thought
>as a PROCESS! (thought I'd mix a little Islam with Buddha and Christ just to
>see if they could get along like good God's. Not too hard in principle I would
>hope since 2 are relatives and the 3rd eliminated his own existence with
>enlightenment!)

Heh Heh. Ok, tell me about Sufiism. Is that this:
 
>In your own mind and actions, when you are "acting irrationally", is t a
>distinct aspect of Self separate from the rational? Or can you logically deduce
>the rationality of irrationality?

:) In theory you can. Things like anger, hate, insanity, exist for
reasons. (namely nuke the competition, nuke the competition long term,
and oops wrong chemical)

They do not promote rational behaviour, but so what?

>Third point for further consideration; the "5th force" of Psions/?? for
>"discovering" the "Spirit" realm?!

Ya needs evidence for this 'un. How would such a force work?

> On a purely theological level of course
>"proof" of the 'Spirit World' negates Faith, whose value is dubious anyway.

Heh heh!

>(besides "Hitchikers Guide" said that more clearly then I)

I know the bit. And I'll make you vanish in a puff of logic, and
your little dog too.

>But what would such
>"proof" do for either Theists or Atheists?

It would convince Atheists, and make Theists feel good. But
it would not convince Atheists (in general) to obey any particular
God, or worship one. Just start believing in spirits.

> Personally nuetrinos seem a l;ikely
>Ghost candidate for something real that barely exists. The proof for these
>particles was at first purely mathematical and lastely just barely detectab

Neutrinos are perfectly good particles, as real as you or I, just very
very small. They are physical, they can be detected and the affect the world
around you. (if you live in a tank of water in a salt mine, anyway) :)

They are not immaterial, which as I understand the Spirit World would have
to be.
---
			- Dan Johnson
And God said "Jeeze, this is dull"... and it *WAS* dull. Genesis 0:0

These opinions have had all identifiying marks removed, and are untraceable.
You'll never know whose they are.
Xref: sparky alt.atheism:21118 talk.religion.misc:20954