HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: 71773.3463@CompuServe.COM (Brian  T. Millin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: SKS Slam-fire/full auto = $1.4 million
Date: 8 Jan 93 00:05:05 GMT

#From the San Jose Mercury News, 1/7/93

A 1.4 Million dollar settlement has been awarded to the widow and children
of a man who was fatally shot in the back by his own military style rifle
that malfunctioned and sprayed bullets around a shooting range.

To paraphrase, two years ago John E. Murray let the bolt drop on an SKS-47
sold as the "Cowboy Companion" by Navy Arms when it slam-fired and went
full auto. It tore loose from his grip and moved backward, firing one
bullet through his back killing him instantly. The rifle dumped 7 rounds
in less than one second, lodging under the tire of his truck 38 feet away.

The exporter, the importer, the distributor and the local shop are all to
pay a portion of the award. A local gunsmith testified that he had
personally seen 4 malfunctioning models in this county alone, and the
settlement requires Navy Arms to publish warnings in national firearms
magazines. The Navy Arms attorney called the death a freak accident, then
went on to say that the firm warned people to test-fire the weapon because
it had been known to slam fire.
From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: 303
Date: 8 Jan 93 00:04:52 GMT
Organization: The Courts of Chaos * 501-985-0059 * Public Access Usenet


-> Of course I wouldn't look at rabbits with it, [the .303] but it
-> should be good for pigs and so on.

 I use .32 ACP bullets for light plinking loads for my .303 and 7.65
Mauser.  They're the right diameter, and available in weights from 70 to
100 grains, including hollowpoints.

 After considerable experimentation, I finalized on 24 grains of
Hercules 2400 (a medium pistol powder) with either the 72 or 100 grain
bullets.  Smaller charges of powder do not expand the case enough to get
a gas seal and you get puffs of soot onto your glasses.  The 2400
also burns completely in this load, which was not the case with some of
the other powders I tried.  I hate unburned powder laying in the barrel.

 Accuracy is not particularly great by marksman standards - at about
15 meters the bullets begin to tumble, and at 30 meters they group at
about two inches, with about 1 in 3 visibly keyholed.  Since the load
was developed for blowing up plastic water bottles at short ranges this
was good enough for what I wanted it for.

 The Enfield barrel is closer to threaded than rifled; the short aspect
ratio of the bullet and the high twist are obviously not suited to each
other.  Accuracy improved markedly with only 10 grains of 2400, but I
didn't like the blowby.  If your rifle has a tighter chamber you might
not have that problem.

 Loading the bullets backwards (flat-side-front) added another 3 or 4
meters before they started to tumble.  I found this out after machining
a special bullet seater to load them "properly", of course.

 If you do your rabbit hunting at 30 meters or less, this load may be
useful.
From: fiddler@concertina.Eng.Sun.COM (steve hix)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Cleaning freq. of a muzzle loader in the old days
Date: 12 Jan 93 03:10:02 GMT
Organization: Sun

In article <bakc.271.726737113@giraffe.ru.ac.za> bakc@giraffe.ru.ac.za (MR KR COMAN) writes:
#
#	Conversely, using my brother's Hawken replica with round ball and 
#patches was another story.  Here, loading became increasingly problematic 
#due to barrel fouling after a short a period as 5 or so shots  -- cleaning 
#out between shots (or at most two shots) was literally mandatory to prevent
#incipient problems and frustrations.  (I imagine that a smoothbore equipped 
#soldier would be very careful to fill his cartridge box only with radically
#undersized ammo -- stuff accuracy, I want firepower in a prolonged fight.)

There is some evidence that serious bore fouling may be more related to
the composition of lubricant than to blackpowder per se.

Apparently, petroleum in the lube is a no no.

An outfit named Ox-Yoke have come out with a lubricant that they claim
allows essentially an umlimited number of shots before cleaning the
bore becomes necessary.  Some other blackpowder suppliers offer the
same stuff under their own names.

Some 19th-century publications hint that different makers' blackpowders
might have an effect on fouling rates, but it's a little hard to test out
these allegations since most of the mentioned companies aren't around now,
and out here we mostly have a choice between Goex blackpowder and Pyrodex
which isn't blackpowder.

Oh, yeah:  while your gun's bore might not be fouled badly enough to
require cleaning so you can shoot again, corrosion might be doing it more
harm.  Clean it anyway when you're done for the day.

##didn't eliminate it.  Trap-door Springfields were known to pull the
##heads off of cases upon extraction when the chamber was too badly
##fouled, and I'm told this took many rifles out of action at Little
##Big Horn.  
#
#	Wasn't this largely due to the poor quality ammunition issued?  I
#understand that Custer's men had recieved a consignment of ammo with 
#an excessive copper content in the case-brass alloy.  

Early .45-70 cases were made from copper (softer than brass).  The Army
tried to fix the problem by plating the cases with zinc.

In 1881 they switched to brass cases, which made things a lot less bad.

#stick.   (Did Custer's men carry cleaning rods?)

Infantry normally did...cavalry maybe not.  (It couldn't be much fun to
try to clear the remnants of a case out of your rifle/carbine with a
cleaning rod with hostiles of one sort or another being so rude to not
call for time out while you worked.)


-- 
-------------------------------------------------------
| Some things are too important not to give away      |
| to everybody else and have none left for yourself.  |
|------------------------ Dieter the car salesman-----|
From: towle@vssteg.enet.dec.com (Clark Towle Gunsmith)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .22 Magnum Semi-Autos?
Date: 4 Jan 93 13:32:22 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


In article <01GT2YPH8GQG91WNJK@vega.selu.edu>, pusv1305@altair.selu.edu 
writes...

#Has anyone seen a .22 Magnum Semi-Auto Pistol or Rifle?  NO DERRINGERS.


 Doesn't AMT make an auto pistol??

 Marlin makes several varieties too.
From: towle@vssteg.enet.dec.com (Clark Towle Gunsmith)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Case Trimming, RCBS Rotary Case Trimmer II
Date: 4 Jan 93 13:32:20 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation


In article <51pA02Yu30tq01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com>, cwr30@duts.ccc.amdahl.com (Clarence W Rothrock) writes...
#I have a RCBS Rotary Case Trimmer II, and I am having problems with the case
#lengths not being equal after trimming.  When I say equal I mean they are as
#much as .020" different.  Does anyone out there have any suggestions?  By the
#way I am trimming .44 mag cases if that would make any difference.  I have
#checked the obvious like the cutter stop slipping or making sure that the case
#is fully seated in the collet.  Is this a problem with all case trimmers?  Is
#this isolated to only the RCBS trimmer?  Is this isolated to my lack of
#experience and knowledge?  Help would be greatly appreciated.

 Sounds like you are not using consistent force from case to case when 
tightening the collet lock handle. Try to get the handle to index to the same 
point each time you tighten it and your problem will go away.

 When locked, if the handle is in an inconvienient position, spin the collet 
inside the housing to get the lock handle to index at a different, (more 
comfortable) point.
From: mjalava@lk-hp-10.hut.fi (Mika Matti Jalava)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: stripper clips (was: Re: trivia)
Date: 5 Jan 93 14:55:08 GMT
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology

In article <1993Jan4.131820.29594@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> bobd@marune.acs.ohio-state.edu (Bob DeBula) writes:
#military applications for a rifle like an SKS). If there are
#any actions/feed systems which require a stripper clip for
#loading, I would expect them to be of early vintage.
#I'm sure in the case of the Steyr-Hahn 1912
#or the Mauser (Bolo?) without detachable magazines that
#they'd come in handy for everyday loading.

Well, I don't know what the "Bolo" Mauser is, but if you mean the old
pistol with the (fixed) magazine in the front of the trigger guard, I
can tell you it is a pain to load without the stripper clip (which I
unfortunately don't have). The slide is held open by the magazine
follower, and when you press the first cartridge in, the slide
is released. You have to keep it back by hand while loading the rest
of the cartridges.

The clips are also very handy when loading rifles with rimmed
cartridges. When you load these one by one, there is always the
possibility of putting a cartridge in with the rim _behind_ the
previous one, and it may be quite difficult to clear the jam
resulting. I just did this with my m39 rifle (7.62x53R)...

	Mika
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bersa Thunder 9
Date: 12 Jan 93 18:27:59 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

C08926RC@WUVMD.Wustl.Edu (Rob) writes:

##Would you really want a gun with "Thunder Nine" etched
##into the slide?
#I sure would...looks like a nice gun.
#Besides, from a liability standpoint, it's not as bad as the
#Astra Terminator....

Terminator?  When did they ever make a gun with that name?
I think I know just about everything they made, and I
don't recall it.  
Or are you just pulling my chain!   %^)

JD
From: mjm3170@zeus.tamu.edu (MATTSON, MATTHEW JUL)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Colt Sporter problem...
Date: 7 Jan 93 03:45:20 GMT
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services

I just recently purchased a Colt Sporter Model R6700 and must say that I
really enjoy shooting it.  The problem is that when cleaning it for the 
first time I noticed that the finish has poor metalworking (nicks,
gouges, etc).

This concerns me because the weapon is also a collectors item for my 
collection and its value will definitely be lower than one without these
irregularities.  Does anyone have any ideas?  The dealer will not consider
an exchange because it is not "technically not operationally defective."

Any COLT people out there:  Is there any way I could get an exchange?

MJM
(409)764-2022 or Email...
From: donb@igor.tamri.com (Don Baldwin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: M1 Garand help needed...
Date: 6 Jan 93 18:21:22 GMT
Organization: TOSHIBA America MRI, South San Francisco, CA

In article <1iaqekINNar@menudo.uh.edu> GWH@UH.EDU (Gregory W Hayes) writes:
#Well, I'm almost finished with my own match Garand and I could use some
#help from you out there...
                   :
#(3)  Does anyone have any good loads or bullet weights/velocities for
#original .30-06 ammo?  There are no specific recommendations in my
#reloading manuals for the Garand.  I have saved posts over the years of
#what weights to use, but still am clueless as to what velocities I
#should aim for.

At the DCM practice session that I went to, back in September, there was
a guy who seemed to be regarded as an expert.  He said that 150 grains is
the ideal bullet weight for a Garand cartridge; he suggested not using
ammunition with bullet weight greater than 180 grains.

No powder charge or velocity data, sorry, but I hope the info above is
some help...

    don
From: paul@uxc.cso.uiuc.edu (Paul Pomes - UofIllinois CSO)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: DCM program changes
Date: 11 Jan 93 23:30:53 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

It seems the DCM process has changed a bit recently.  I completed and
submitted the agency check forms, release statement, and fingerprint
card about four weeks back.  Friday I receive a letter that looks a lot
like the original save that it says to include $250.  No more invoicing
after approval, more bucks, and the government has the use of that $250
while the approval process grinds away.

Oh well, that's the breaks.  Time to submit another consulting invoice.

/pbp
-- 
Freedom is a family value.  Ski Colorado.	--Paul Pomes (1992)
From: wmartin@STL-06SIMA.ARMY.MIL (Will Martin)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Glock 18 Discussion
Date: 7 Jan 93 23:59:03 GMT

Those who were interested in the Glock 18 discussion should take a look
at the new DBI (Gun Digest) book COMBAT HANDGUNNERY, 3rd Edition, by Chuck
Karwan. Beginning on page 162 is an article on and evaluation of the Glock 18.
(Note that the edition number is important -- the content changes entirely
between editions.)

Regards, Will
From: deh7g@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU (David Edward Husk)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Single stage reloader
Date: 6 Jan 93 18:22:49 GMT
Organization: University of Virginia


	On page 68 (bottom left corner) of the mag. "Guns & Ammo"
Feb. 1993, there is a picture of a reloader.  I bought the same
model at an auction.
	Does anyone know the company name of the reloader?
	Also can the top of this reloader be rotated so as to 
bring the various tools in alignment?
	Finally does anyone have any experience with the reloader?
Good/bad?

Thanks in advance.


#>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Freedom Times Security is a Constant<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

David E. Husk	                		804 924 6799
Physics Bldg/UVA                                Husk@virginia.edu 
McCormick Rd.
Charlottesville, VA 22904
From: TTC103@PSUVM.PSU.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: AK stock
Date: 7 Jan 93 03:45:08 GMT
Organization: Penn State University

I just acquired a MAK-90 which is basically an semi-auto only AKS with the
funky thumb hole stock.  Can anyone tell me where to get a stock with the
original pistol grip?  Thanks.
From: jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Shooting Straight Up
Date: 11 Jan 93 23:31:23 GMT
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University

#From article <1993Jan7.183906.24286@sol.ctr.columbia.edu>, by brown%ccit08@uunet.UU.NET (Jason Brown):
# In article <1993Jan6.164626.14780@news.eng.convex.com> tford@convex.com (Tom Ford) writes:
# # I heard a local news report on New Years Day about people shooting off guns in
# # town to celebrate the new year, not a smart thing to do.  I was wondering
# # what are the ballistics like for a falling bullet after it has been shot
# # at near 90 degrees elevation.
# # 
# # Happy (safe) new year,
# # Tom Ford
# 
# Well,
# 	If we step into the Physics room for a moment perhaps we can sort this
# one out.  Remember the simple fact that energy is conserved in a system. 
# At the moment the bullet leaves the chamber, we'll call that zero elevation,
# it has a certain amount of kinetic energy from the burning of the powder.
# As it climbs, this kinetic energy is converted to potential energy at such a
# rate that, at the apex of its flight (the top), Kinetic energy =0 and potential
# energy = kinetic energy at elevation zero.  So it stops, and now it starts to
# fall.  As it falls, it accelerates and the potential energy is turned back into
# kinetic energy.  Assuming that it went straight up and fell straight down, when
# it reached the chamber of the gun on the way back down, elevation zero, it
# would have the exact same amount of kinetic energy as when it left.  
# 
# 	What does this mean?  Well, if you shot the bullet, and then stepped
# into the spot you fired the gun from, when the bullet came down, you'd be dead.
# 
# 	Of course this little exercise does ignore a few things though.  Some 
# energy will be lost due to air friction and converted to heat, though not much
# if it is a very aerodynmic bullet.  Also, the shot has to go straight up and
# straight down as well.
# 

This contradicts what I remember reading about some army (?) tests done
quite a while ago (turn of the century?) and some evidence from a roofer I
once knew.  The army tests, if memory serves, indicated that the bullets
were only moderately dangerous when they came down.  I believe they said
the bullets reached a terminal velocity that was low enough to only
produce bruises unless one was really unlucky.

The roofer worked on roofs in (I think) Cleveland the summer after the
riots in '68 (?).  The National Guard fired a lot of rounds straight up in
the air apparently.  The roofer indicated that they often ended up on the
roofs either point up or point down.  The point down ones penetrated the
tar on the roof enough that they stayed in that position.  The ones that
hit base down penetrated less, but enough to leave a mark in the tar.
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas Moore)
From: cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (Chris Luchini)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Gatling Guns
Date: 8 Jan 93 14:07:02 GMT
Organization: High Energy Physics, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign

In article <9301072143.AA01179@hp-vcd.vcd.hp.com>, NESS_ERIK/HP5400_LA@hp-vcd.vcd.hp.com writes:
#Hi all,
#
#(1)  Lately I've been wondering about the legal status of gatling guns.  I'd
#really like to buy or make one, but I don't know whether these fall into the
#same category as fully automatic weapons or not.  This is important, because
#in my state (Washington) it is illegal to own fully automatic weapons, no
#matter how many hoops you are willing to go through.  Are there any dealers
#out there (especially from Washington) who could tell me whether or not
#these things would be legal?  Don't worry, I won't take your word for law
#and then sue you ;)...  In fact, if anyone can direct me to the proper
#authorities in Washington, I can ask them directly.

	Under federal law, they are unrestricted.

#
#(2)  Now then, on to the good stuff--Assuming that I >can< have one, I'd
#like it to fire .22LR for obvious reasons ($$$).  Am I likely to find one
#for sale? And, if so, at what price?  Does anyone know of a company that
#builds them or sells them in kit form? Finally, what about the plans for
#sale in the backs of all the gun magazines?  Has anyone actually purchased
#these ($40, I think) and if so, did you build the thing?  Did it work?
#

	I bought the plans. They are very basic, very detailed, and it
	looks like _alot_ of work. Plus the maker warns over and over
	that this is a model, not inteded to actually be used. I think
	he did that for CYA reasons, but from looking at the design, 
	It's not the most sturdy in existance.


	I've seen the commercial replica's for sale, about 
	$5000 to $22,000 or so.
*1110 W. Green/Urbana IL 61801/217-333-0505/cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu
From: chrisb@wang.com (Chris Bennet)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: accuracy of .40s&w vs. 9mm
Date: 12 Jan 93 00:49:56 GMT
Organization: Wang Labs, Lowell MA, USA

jd@latcs1.lat.oz.au (John Dimogotsis) writes:


#	I recently read an article comparing the P7M10 in .40 with the
#	9mm P7M8/13.
#	The author was very happy with the .40 version even if it was  
#	a bit heavy.
#	Though very accurate for defrence purposes (180gr black talons 
#	performing the best if my memory serves me right) the 9mm was
#	more accurate with most types of loads.

#	So I was wandering if 9mm is inherently more accurate than .40 ?
#	(All else being equal.)
#	Can anyone help me out here, what about other callibers ?
#	I do have a friend who believes .45acp is more accurate than 9mm,
#	is this totally subjective and dependent on the particular
#	guns he uses, or do different callibers offer much different
#	accuracy.
#	What other aspects of the round's design/shape affect accuracy?
#	I'm obviously no expert so don't flame me if this sounds stupid.
#		Thanks in advance for all answers.
#						jd

I seem to remember reading (in more than one place) that the accuracy of
the .40 left something to be desired.  [One article's author suggested 
it might be the barrel twist as he got good results with a revolver in .40
that had a different rate of twist.]  I've yet to see any article say
"Outstanding accuracy!" when refering to a .40 caliber.

I shoot .45 (_alot_) and the groups look better than the 9mm, probably 
because they don't have to be as close to touch. :-)  I suspect that the
9mm has more accuracy potential than most guns chambered for it exploit.

 Chris


Watch this space for people who shoot woodchucks at 100yds with their
.40 s&w :-)
From: prichard@devon.larc.nasa.gov
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: soutpaw .45s available soon
Date: 9 Jan 93 14:25:31 GMT
Organization: Lockheed Engineering & Sciences Co.


Olympic Arms apparently will have left-hand .45 automatics available in the
near future.  they advertised a Crest Renegade model on p240 of the
1993 Gun Digest.  I called them at (206) 456-7940 and talked to a fellow
who said the full-size model might be ready in a coupla weeks, after the
slides get back from heat-treatment.  Commander-sized models will follow
later.  if I interpreted the guy correctly, the dealer cost will be
in the $600s.

from the photo, I will jump to the conclusion that the guns will be
stainless steel, rubber grip panels, blackened adjustable sights, 
extended grip safety (though not what I would call a full beavertail).
doesn't show the "lever" side of the frame, so who knows what the frame
safety and slide release look like.

I forgot to ask if they were considering a Detonics-sized version.  but
that would be too much to ask, I suppose.  lets just hope there is enough
market for the full- and Commander-sized models.

hee, hee, hee... where's my checkbook?  one more toy...

--
 ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
 | Devon Prichard                    "Don't worry about people stealing |
 | Lead Follower                     your ideas.  If your ideas are any |
 | Lockheed Eng. & Sciences Co.      good, you'll have to ram them down |
 | prichard@devon.larc.nasa.gov      people's throats."    Howard Aiken |
 ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Reloading Info for .44 Automag
Date: 8 Jan 93 22:23:19 GMT
Organization: The Courts of Chaos * 501-985-0059 * Public Access Usenet


-> Back in 71 Remington ran a limited production run of
-> .44 automag brass out of one of their mexican plants.

 The real stuff carries a CDM (Cartouches Deportivos Mexico, or
something like that) headstamp.  You can sometimes find NOS stuff
in older gun shops or pawnshops.  I saw about five boxes in a local
store and thought about picking them up for trading material, but
someone beat me to it.
From: jheath@fieldofdreams.npirs.purdue.edu (Jim Heath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Toolhead Set Ups on Reloading Presses
Date: 4 Jan 93 18:34:42 GMT
Organization: Center for Environmental and Regulatory Information Systems, Purdue University

#From article <9212300503.AA06643@hpfcpp.fc.hp.com>, by davep@hpfcpp.fc.hp.com (David Post):
# Exchangable toolheads on progressive reloading presses seem like an excellent
# idea.  Are there any down sides besides cost?
# 
# I know Dillon has them.  Anyone else?
# 

If you mean die heads (? where the various dies fit?), Lee has them on
both the 1000 and Loadmaster.  I think RCBS Ammomaster and Hornady
Projector both do as well.

Only the Lee, Dillon 1050(?) and, I think, the Dillon 650 have case
feeders.  I have always had them and would miss not having them.
-- 
"Land of song, said the warrior bard,           Jim Heath
Though all the world betrays thee.
One sword, at least, thy rights shall guard, (The Minstrel Boy)
One faithful harp will praise thee."         (Thomas Moore)