HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: wiener@duke.cs.duke.edu (Edward Wiener)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: The Order of Ante Pavelic bestowed upon Zlatko
Date: 27 Sep 92 03:18:19 GMT
Organization: Duke University Computer Science Dept.; Durham, N.C.


Eduard Wiener:


>>I am interested in what fate befell the fascist leadership
>>of Independent Croatia.  Did they die at the hands of
>>the Soviet/Yugoslav Red Army or did they flee to their
>>mentors in the Vatican?  I'd be grateful if someone posted
>>a reply.
>>


Zlatko Sijercic:

>I am interested in what fate will befell the fascist leadership
>of Fascist Serbia. Will they die at the hands of
>the Croatian/Bosnian Army or will they flee to their
>mentors in Russia? I'd be grateful if someone posted
>a reply.
>
>



     Are you implying that Russia is a fascist state, Zlatko?
     This should evoke some laughs among those who've lived in
     Russia recently and is SOME accusation for a staunch defender of
     a regime headed by a man who claimed that genocide is
     not such a bad thing and who thanked God that his wife
     is neither Jewish nor Serb.

     I think that the memory of Independent Croatia 1941-1945
     (or thereabouts) really bothers you.  You appear to be
     quite fond of those bastards, since you insinuate that
     historical references to the MASSIVE genocide of Serbs,
     Jews, and Gypsies is Serb propaganda.

     You are hereby awarded the Order of Ante Pavelic and
     Pope Pius XII.  Honors are to be presented at the
     Reichstag in Zagreb by Generalissimo Tudjman himself.
     Fond wishes!


-- Eduard Wiener
From: davidovi@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Dragomir J Davidovic)
Subject: Yu films in USA
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1992 03:29:54 GMT

Hi, 
I would like to find movies from what used to be Yugoslavia, 
with transcripts in english. In local video stores selection 
is very small. If anyone knows the list of such movies
available in US, or knows a way how to get them, please 
inform me.
Dragomir.

Xref: sparky soc.culture.yugoslavia:8899 soc.culture.greek:9322
From: lb@cs.man.ac.uk (Luben Boyanov)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: The Macedonian Question and the Versaille Peace Treaty (1919)
Date: 27 Sep 92 17:37:30 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Organization: Dept Computer Science, University of Manchester, U.K.


Hello everybody,

Last article for today :-). But so many facts are missed during that
discussion, one can hardly catch up (and there is no time :-((( )

In article <9225320.22160@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU> sachz@montebello.ecom.unimelb.EDU.AU (SAS) writes:
>
>THE MACEDONIAN QUESTION AND THE VERSAILLE PEACE TREATY

[deleted]

>   The Maceedonian emigrants, who were the only legitimate
>representatives of the Macedonian nation in the Balkans, Europe
>and America, were not inactive while the Peace Conference in
>Versailles was being held, and they alone put the Macedonian
>question as a Macedonian national question. Through numerous 
>appeals, articles, letters

It's most interesting to read those appeals, letters and articles. Let me 
quote one of them (don't have time to quote 2 more :-( ).

From the memorandum of the IMRO signed by A. Protogerov and T. Alexandrov
to the Paris Conference:

"
						March 1st, 1919

...
[writing about the 1903 Ilinden uprising]

   In the Blue, Yellow and Green books about the 1903 uprising there are
many documents providing both the strenght and the Bulgarian character of
the movement.
...
[writing about WWI]

 ... Finally Bulgaria confronted its neighbours and its armies entered
Macedonia, welcomed from Shar to Ohrid with exceptional enthusiasm.
Everywhere the population afforded the greatest possible cooperation to
the advancing fraternal armies and spared no sacrifices in order to facilitate
their task.
...
[at the end of the memorandum]

 IMRO ... in the name of its dead and in the name of the principles
proclaimed by the victorious Powers, begs the honourable Peace Conference
to allow its delegation to present the demands and aspirations of the
Macedonian Bulgarian population.
   If other nations, which have not fought so much for their liberty and
have suffered fewer casulties than the Macedonian Bulgarians, have been
admitted to the Peace Conference and have been able through special
delegations to express their national aspirations, we think that it is all
the more justified to give the Macedonians the opportunity to defend their
national cause themselves." 


>                                           Although Lipper discussed
>the ethnic composition of the population of Macedonia, he eventually
>failed to distinguish the Macedonian inhabitants, who differ from 
>the other Balkan nations in their national feeling and language.

Such "failure" is observed in all books and documents from before 1920.
Mybe it can't be called a "failure" but a fact.

> - From the "Did You Know" facts file.

:-)))) That is a very big file, indeed.


Regards

Luben
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.greek
From: 8800529@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU ()
Subject: Re: Australian Acceptance of Macedonian Passports
Organization: school of Mathematics UNSW
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 13:32:29 GMT

In article <Oct02.154517.68947@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> cc433336@LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Constantinos A. Caroutas) writes:
>In article <9227619.1023@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU>,
>sachz@montebello.ecom.unimelb.EDU.AU (SAS) writes:
>>
>>ACCEPTANCE OF MACEDONIAN PASSPORTS (Australia) 
>
>Is that in the same way the USA accepts TRNC passports? They stamp on them
>that the holder is a person without a country...

	I think that in Australias case it's a sticker. :-) Sorry
although it's true whay I write it's a bit amusing.
>--
>Constantinos A. Caroutas
>
>"It's easy to make mistakes when others will be held responsible."

	George
From: wiener@duke.cs.duke.edu (Edward Wiener)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Demented Damir
Date: 2 Oct 92 20:40:45 GMT
Organization: Duke University Computer Science Dept.; Durham, N.C.

Damir Matanic writes:


>You said that your father did the killing in Jasenovac.  So, he was 


      Wait, Croats claim that there were no atrocities committed
      against Serbs and Jews in Independent-Puppet Croatia.
      Is your conscience bothering you, Damire?


>Croatian huh?      An Ustasa ?!?!?!?!?!?
>  You have Croatian blood flowing in your veins?
>You're nothing but a damn Yugo-Cetnik S.O.B. ! 


      Have you seen a psychiatrist lately, Damir?
      I am Russian, not Croat, remember???
      Did you have foam at the mouth and bloodshot
      eyes when you wrote this nonsense?


>The Ustasa fought to defend the Croatian and Muslim populations in both 
>Croatia and Bosna-Hercegovina.  There was nothing "fascistic" about them.
>Let me guess, you would probably say that today's Croatian leadership is 
>also fascist, eventhough the H.D.Z. is made up of former communists.
>Independent Croatia=fascist state, huh?



      That's right.  Independent Croatia is indeed headed
      by a fascist government.


>If you are part Croat, the you're a trator. Go back to the Yugo newsgroup 
>where you belong.
>Rot in hell cetnitcko stoko !



      It would appear that the credibility of net.Croats
      converges to zero.


-- Eduard
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: damir@infopls.chi.il.us (Damir Matanic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: USTASHA MASSACRES
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 92 09:51:42 CDT
Organization: INFOPLUS support, Wheeling, IL

wiener@duke.cs.duke.edu (Edward Wiener) writes:

> 
> 
> The net.blackshirt Chicago Cro writes:
> 
> ============================================================================
> >Its about bloody time someone told the Serbs to mellow out with their
> >overblown figures for some alleged "Serbian Genocide" that never happened.
> >
> >Hvala.
> >P.S I'm the only Croat ,I think, in this section and it is good to have
> >    more of our brothers and sisters using E-mail.
> ============================================================================
> 
> 
> His sympathizer Zlatko Sijercic defecates his own contribution:
> 
> ===========================================================================
> >You probably joined recently to netnews and don't know about fruitless
> >discussions on this group about borders, genosides, war crimes, respon-
> >sibilities etc. I understand your frustration regarding this article.
> >Hey but that is soc.culture.yugoslavia. What else can you expect here!?
> 
> 
>       Perhaps one should not expect decency from a person like you.
>       How dare you post this drivel to a newsgroup which is filled
>       with netters whose relatives were slaughtered like cattle
>       by the Fascists of Independent Croatia?  Have you not a grain
>       of humanity left in your soul?
> 
> 
> >Once upon a time there has been a lot of Croats trying to argue but they
> >gave up. Also there has been a number of Bosnians and Hercegovinians who
> >gave up soc.culture.yugoslavia and establish soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna.
> >Whole world gave up Yugoslavia (should I say Serboslavia). Why should you
> >argue agains lies.      
> >Your brothers and sisters have their own Croatia network + BOSNET + soc.cult
> >.bosna-herzgvna. You can find them there.
> 
> 
> 
>       Yeah, look for them in the fields of Russia and Ukraine, buried next
>       to their Nazi German and Italian comrades.  Fascist filth!
> 
> 
> -- Eduard Wiener

My only answer to your Bullshit is this:

Za Dom Spremni !

--
damir@infopls.chi.il.us (Damir Matanic)
Infoplus BBS, +1 708 537 0247, v32bis. Home of Infoplus.
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Drina III
Date: 3 Oct 92 23:30:26 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Robert LJUBICIC (ljubicic@mundil.cs.mu.OZ.AU) writes:
>	Bosna is not a muslim nation, its also not a miniture
>	Yugoslavia. Historically, ethnically and geographically
>	it IS part of Croatia.

Hm, historically part of Croatia? Well, may be true sometime
back in the 11th century. But it also historically part of
Turkey, the Byzanitine empire, Austria, Hungary - and we
should no forget: in the 14th century even as an independent
state.

And true, historically, Bosnia is not a Muslim state, but a
Christian state, but not Catholic and Orthodox, but Bogomil.
Of course, the Bogomils are not Bogomils any more, but, you
guessed it, Muslims.


-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
There are many sorts of Macedonians: Greek, Bulgarian, Roumanian, Macedonian...
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: miscord@mullian.ee.mu.oz.au (Michael Scordilis)
Subject: Re: Michael III assessment on Salonica (was: Macedonian Language..)
Organization: Electrical and Electronic - University of Melbourne 
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 08:34:34 GMT

In article <96856@bu.edu> buis@buengc.bu.edu (Lou Buis) writes:
>>The famous quote "solounene visi chisto besedoujontu slovenusku" comes
>>from the hagiographic "Life of Methodius," whose earliest copy dates from
>>the end of the XIIth cent.
>>Ronald Feldstein
>
>Thanks for the reference. Let me add that the sentence "solounene visi chisto 
>besedoujontu slovenusku" translated in english says:
>
>"all citizens of Salonika speak pure slavic"
>
>	"Life of Methodius", XII century
>		Lou


What is the historical value of hagiographical accounts? Those who have read
such popular brochures should know their medieval character, the exaggerated
miracles, the magic potions, and the visions by obscure monks and ascetes. 
The historical value of such an account, especially, one written 300 years 
after the alleged statement of Michael III, is, in my opinion, zero.  It 
has value as sample of the folklor of the Russian countryside in the 12th 
century, but I don't think any serious writer can claim it as historical 
evidence.  Then again, it all depends how desperate one is to achieve 
certain results.  Namely, to "prove" that the Slavs dominated Macedonia, 
and Thessaloniki in particular, since 800 AD.  It is quite absurd.   

Now, leaving the Emperor's statement aside, Thessalonians might have been
more likely than citizens of other parts of Byzantium to know Slavic, 
because of the physical proximity of Macedonia to lands with Slavic settlers.
Like saying that Corfiots are more likely to speak Italian than other Greeks.
But "all" Thessalonians to speak "pure" Slavic, that is very fishy. It does
not fit with what we know of the city at that time.  That is, being a 
fortress-city, the administrative and military center of the Empire in the
Balkans, the "Symvasilevousa". Many campaigns against the Bulgars originated
from Thessaloniki.  The city withstood a number of sieges by Slavs.  It was 
never taken over by Slavs. 
No, it does not make sense. 

 
Michael Scordilis


Michael Scordilis	   	|internet    miscord@mullian.ee.mu.OZ.AU
From: U52148@uicvm.uic.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Moslems massacred 25 Serbs
Date: 28 Sep 92 16:03:59 GMT
Article-I.D.: uicvm.92272.110359U52148
Distribution: world
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago

In article <1a5ldeINN4tf@sal-sun78.usc.edu>, draskovi@usc.edu (Zoran Draskovic)
says:
>
>Yesterday around 5PM, on the MIljevina-Kalinovik road, near the village of
>Paprati, moslem "Green Berets" committed terrible massacre of Serbian civili-
>ans.In fact they ambushed a vehicle with 25 civilians on board.They brutally
>killed all of them and then burned the bodies.
>(Vecernje Novosti, September 22 1992.)

You Serbs cry over anything. What about the mass graves found in Mostar
what about the butchering of Muslim men in Central Bosnia as was reported
in Saturday's Chicago Tribune. Serbian crimes are more horrible than that
of the strengthend Bosnian forces in BiH.
 -Chicago Cro
From: damir@infopls.chi.il.us (Damir Matanic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Drina II
Date: Thu, 01 Oct 92 22:12:37 CDT
Organization: INFOPLUS support, Wheeling, IL

pavlovic-milan@CS.YALE.EDU (Milan Pavlovic) writes:

> In article <4LawRB4w165w@infopls.chi.il.us> damir@infopls.chi.il.us (Damir Ma
> >
> >Cuj te Srbski dobrovoljci bando cetnitci !
> >Stici ce vas nasa ruka i u Srbiji !!
> >Stici ce vas nasa ruka i u Srbiji !!
> 
> Ha, ha, ha! Damire, javi mi se kad dodjes u New York ili negde drugo blizu 
> Yale-a.  Onda ces da vidis kako Srpski Cetnik bije.
> 
> Milan

Ne.  Bolje da te vidim na Kosovksko polje.  Izgubices i tu bitku druze !

U          U
U          U
U          U
U          U
U          U
U          U
 UUUUUUUUUU


--
damir@infopls.chi.il.us (Damir Matanic)
Infoplus BBS, +1 708 537 0247, v32bis. Home of Infoplus.
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Monday, 28 Sep 1992 10:53:24 CDT
From: <U52148@uicvm.uic.edu> (Chicago Cro)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Drina II

To all Croats and Bosnians:

Drinu treba pregaziti i Srbiju zapaliti.
          -Translation-

    The River Drina must be crossed and Serbia burned.


  Love Chicago Cro.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
From: mmdh@cbnewsf.cb.att.com (Mazen Mokhtar)
Subject: Bosnia Week - Islamic Society of Rutgers University
Organization: AT&T
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 13:40:32 GMT

Assalamu `alaykum,

  The Islamic Society of Rutgers University (ISRU) is organizing a Bosnia
week from October 5th to October 10th. This includes:

  - A series of films about Bosnia-Herzegovina detailing the ethnic cleansing,
    comparing B-H before and after Serbian aggression, showing Serbian
    mutilation of the bodies of Muslims, dead and alive, and showing what was
    done to Islamic places of worship.

  - An information campaign to make people aware of the war in B-H and of
    Serbian atrocities. This includes posters, flyers and articles in the
    school newspaper, the daily Targum.

  - An attempt to make people aware of the inhumanity of the embargo against
    B-H. This embargo was initially intended to decrease the threat of war
    but is being used to eliminate a nation. The ISRU is trying to generate
    support for President Izetbegovich's plea to lift the embargo so that the
    Bosnians can defend themselves.

  Events are scheduled in all campuses.

  May Allah (God) grant victory to the righteous.



  The ISRU would like to hear comments or suggestions especially from our
Bosnian brothers.



Assalamu `alaykum,

Mazen Mokhtar
From: damir@infopls.chi.il.us (Damir Matanic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Once and for all
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 92 18:22:20 CDT
Organization: INFOPLUS support, Wheeling, IL

  Eduard is a sick man.  That is why I'm not angry with him.  He doesn't 
know any better.
  Atrocities were committed by both sides in WW II.  No one ever denied 
this, let alone myself.  But there is a difference.  The Serbs drew first 
blood.  In the fist yugo. they imprisoned, murdered, and instituted a 
regein of terror on the Croatian people.  During the war, the cetnik 
bandits raided and mascered innocent Croatian civilians, all in the name 
of "greater Serbia". That was when the Ustasa\Croatian domobrani 
responded. Along with our Muslim brother, they defended Croatia's 
historical border, i.e. Drina\Zemun.  No doubt about it, the Serbian 
hordes payed dearly in WW II.  But they deserved it.  They deserved it 
because they have constantly dreamed and have attempted to create 
some-sort of artifical\fantasy state, i.e. "Greater Serbai" which has 
never existed, and has 0 historical backing and legitamacy.  Croatia 
found herself on the side of Nazi Germany because she had no other 
choice.  In order to establish an independent state, HDZ had to accept 
!@!$!@!$, NDH had to accept Germany as her overlord.
  Croatian communists fought against NDH.  To say that today's Croatian 
leaders, who are former communists, are fascist is absurd.  Eduard has no 
idea what so ever, about what he's talking about.  Present day Croatian 
leadership has granted amnesty to the cetnik hords, they have given them 
the minority rights that no other Western European nations has, they have 
more representative in the parliment then does HSP, and they have been 
given cultural autonomy.  So, today's Croatian leadership is far from 
being nationalistic and so-called fascistic.
  On the other hand, the Serbs have shown themselves as being Europe's #1 
fascists.  The facts are there, I don't have to restate them.  Watch CNN, 
read the papers and see for yourselves. The idea that the Serbs don't 
support Seselj, Milosevic, Arkan, etc... is nothing but a lie.  They 
supported Greater Serbianism 100%.  This is fact.  That is why, 
hopefully, they will pay dearly in blood for what they have done.  Only 
Tudman and his HDZ are saving you from the wrath of the Croatian people.  
You shall pay.
  Eduard is sick.  He told me that is grandfather did the killing in 
Jasenovac. So what does this mean?  Later, I read that he calls himself a 
Russian.  It seems to me that Eduard himself doesn't know who the hell he 
is. Such a sick person can't be blamed for his stupidity.  

Put it to rest Eduard.  I understand your problem.  You don't have to 
explain.  There are many such as yourself.  But it's your own fault.
That is why people as yourself pay dearly when war breaks out.


Za Dom Spremni


--
damir@infopls.chi.il.us (Damir Matanic)
Infoplus BBS, +1 708 537 0247, v32bis. Home of Infoplus.
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: The recognition game
Date: 26 Sep 92 19:53:16 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Josip Loncaric (josip@src.umd.edu) writes:
>Not quite true: by the time B-H was recognized, Bijeljina (a city in
>the NE corner of B-H) had been overrun by Serbian forces and its Muslim
>inhabitants massacred.  Also, well before B-H recognition, Croats in
>B-H were under attack.  The full scale war was already there by the time B-H
>was recognized.

But the situation got distinctively worse after the recognition.

>Recognition was an attempt to prevent spreading of this war;

Don't joke. Recognition was a sleep-walker's act.

>There were no significant
>minority problems in Croatia prior to Milosevic's meddling (starting by
>1990).  You've read about Muslims, Serbs and Croats living together in
>B-H with plenty of tolerance; the situation was not much different in
>Croatia -- BEFORE Milosevic.

Or before Tudjman.

>The incompetence was certainly there -- but the recognition came too late, not
>too early.  Whose bright idea was it that 94% vote FOR independence could
>be ignored?  

Well, that seems to be quite popular. Croatia for instance did not bother
very much about the referendum held in the Knin area.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
There are many sorts of Macedonians: Greek, Bulgarian, Roumanian, Macedonian...
From: U52148@uicvm.uic.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: Hercegovina
Date: 30 Sep 92 16:02:20 GMT
Article-I.D.: uicvm.92274.110220U52148
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago

I read that lovely piece of Serb BS. One the Serbs LEFT various
counties before the war. Why? Gee, I wonder if it has to do anything
with the Cetniks attacking various town in Hercegovina and not wanting to
kill Serbs. The thing with the Churches is ,Thank God, true. After
Mostar was liberated, the Serb moastary in Zitomisici was leveled,
and various muslim and catholic groups leveled churches in the
territories EAST of the neretva I know this because
I have pictures of the leveled churches from my native Stolac.
Boy it was nice seeing something Serbian get destroyed for a change.
No I am not extreme, It is a Hercegovinian thing : you mess with us
we mess with you.

-Love Chicago Cro.

P.S. I also saw "Here are our children", it was the biggest piece
     of Serb propaganda ever. The pits in the Stolac county are
     all Croatian.
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia
Subject: Re: MIRacles No. 13
Date: 5 Oct 92 20:14:30 GMT
Article-I.D.: blaze.1992Oct5.201430.28038
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.

In article <1475300379@igc.apc.org> jsax@igc.apc.org (Joel Sax) writes:
>Greeks imagine that the Skopje government possesses a huge army, 
>poised to sweep into northern Greece.  The size of the "Republic 
>of Skopje" seems immense.  This little country of two and a half 
>million people has grown, in the Greek mind, to a monster of epic 
>proportions.  The Republic of Macedonia's Army of 5000 unarmed 
>soldiers (the JNA took the guns when it withdrew) has been 
>identified by the Greek press as the greatest threat to their 
>country's security since the Second World War. 

What about the threat that Macedonia will ally with other countries, even if
it's not a threat in itself?

>
>"We are Slavs," he continues.  "Our ancestors came to this place 
>called Macedonia in the Fifth Century after Christ.  I am not 
>descended from Alexander the Great!"  Most of the Macedonian 
>people are puzzled that Greek newspapers should claim that they 
>want to steal this heritage.

I have seen, in this very newsgroup, propaganda posted which refers to
Alexander the Great and which claims that Greeks oppress a Macedonian
minority in the Greek part of Macedonia.  These certainly sound like attempts
at claims on Greek Macedonia....
--
"the bogosity in a field equals the bogosity imported from related areas, plus
the bogosity generated internally, minus the bogosity expelled or otherwise
disposed of."  -- K. Eric Drexler

Ken Arromdee (UUCP: ....!jhunix!arromdee; BITNET: arromdee@jhuvm;
     INTERNET: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)