From: lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich)
Newsgroups: rec.railroad,ba.transportation,talk.politics.misc,talk.environment
Subject: Re: Cost of transit systems vs highways
Date: 15 Aug 92 00:54:20 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: LLNL

In article <1992Aug14.153151.20912@Veritas.COM> joshua@Veritas.COM (Joshua Levy) writes:
>In article <FP8DPB2w165w@1776.COM> bob@1776.COM (Robert Coe) writes:
>>gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman) writes:

>>But weren't the freeways built first, when land values and construction costs
>>were lower?  

>No.  Trains, still a common transit system predated cars.  In New York City,
>the subway was built in the late 1800s or very early 1900s; before cars were
>a big deal.

>It is quite the opposit.  Mass transit had a huge head start in terms of 
>time and subsidy, but personal transit (ie. cars) are so much better that
>they overcame this head start.  Remember, that trains were subsidized 32
>square miles of land for each mile of track they built.  The biggest 
>transportation subsidy ever!

	Land that was of essentially zero value until it was
developed.

	And let us not forget about how much it cost to build
highways. A lot of that money has come right out of the public pocket.

	As Joseph Vranich notes in _Supertrains_, American highways
are currently about 38% subsidized. And that does not count the cost
of highway police, law enforcement, medical care for accident victims,
repair of accident damage, air pollution damage, etc.

	As to cost, I have learned that the rebuilding of the wrecked
section of I-880 will cost $400 million/mile. And that is much more
than the cost of the planned BART extensions, which is $50 to
$100/mile.

	So who's riding the gravy train nowadays?

>>Well, that's a fair criticism, but it should be levelled against the MARTA
>>planners, not against public transit generally.  There's certainly no reason
>>in principle why transit systems can't go where the people want to go.  

>People want to to to homes, buisnesses, and public places, but mass transit
>can only go to train stations (or maybe bus stops, but busses are slower

	Then put train stations everywhere :-)

	And construct a transit network with a certain fractal quality
:-):-)

	And not just the intercity kind of trains, but local ones,
both heavy and light.

>than cars, polute almost as much, and so on..)  Since trains can only go
>to train stations, which almost no one wants as their end point, a train

	If the train station is strategically placed, one can walk
from it to where one wants to go.

	Joshua Levy, have your leg muscles atrophied too much for you
to be able to walk?

>based transportation system can never to were people want to go.

	I have used several rail systems over the course of my life,
and they have _often_ gotten me very close to where I want to go.

	Examples:

	The Philly subways and commuter railroads go right into the
middle of Philadelphia's main business district.

	A Philly commuter rail line goes right into Philly's airport,
stopping at four different spots inside.

	My mother was careful to select a home near some trolley line.
Her current residence is also near a commuter rail line. So it would
always be a short 

	I have seen the National Air and Space Museum several times,
and each time, I have gone from Philly to Washington, DC by Amtrak.
Once there, I've either walked or taken the Washington Metro, which
stops at about a block away.

	I have gone to the American Museum of Natural History in NYC,
again by train and subway.

	I have gone by BART to Berkeley, where the university there
has a very well-stocked research library. I just came back from
Berkeley today, as a matter of fact.

	I have gone by BART to San Francisco, to survey some of the
place's tourist traps, and I have taken BART and Amtrak to Sacramento,
to do the same there.

	I have gone by BART to San Francisco to watch a Gay Pride
Parade. Wonderful sight. :-)

	Part of my trips to and from San Francisco's airport has been
BART.

	And I've never had to worry about finding parking or driving
through lots of traffic. Ever.