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Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1992 11:46:00 -0400
From:         Song Weaver <JULIE%DRYCAS.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU@CARNEGIE.BITNET>
Subject:      Suicide, Bush, Abortion, etc.

Missy writes:
>>...The question "who else's would it be?"
>>is NOT an admission of prochoice sentiment; it is an acknowledgment of the
>>FACT of the physical situation.  Short of tying his granddaughter to a post
>>and watching her 24 hours a day, he can no more stop her from having an
>>abortion physically than he can stop her, when she is not physically in
>>his presence, from committing suicide, running over small children, or
>>burning down the White House.  That would not make any of those things
>>right.

Okay-- a couple points: He _could_ threaten to disown her or cut her
off if she's living off of any of his money.  He could also, easily
enough, make it very difficult for her by informing the whole family
and creating massive stigma about it for her.  I do clinic defense at
a local medical center.  (That is, I show up at the clinic to escort
people inside the clinic while they are being harassed and screamed at
and verbally abused by pro-life protesters outside).  It's happened on
a few occasions that the people outside the clinic knew a person by
name because a family member had told them that this individual was
going to have an abortion on a given day and so they had signs saying
things like "Don't do it Perscilla."

If George Bush wanted to hold his family members accountable for a
crime he considers to be murder than there are many things he could do
regardless of the law at hand.  However, what he said was that it was
her _choice_ to have an abortion and all but suggested that it was her
right.  I think that's great, personally, that he'd be willing to
stand by his granddaughter under such circumstances.  I just wish his
politics weren't so totally contrary to it.

--Julie

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@@ / ___ \ @@ Julie Waters                 @ Mother: "Is it a boy or @
@ / /   \ \ @ P. O. Box 23040              @   a girl?"              @
@ \ \___/ / @ Providence, RI 02903-0394    @ Doctor: "I think it's a @
@@ \__ __/ @@ (401)-273-4851               @   bit early to start    @
@@  _| |_  @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@   imposing roles on it, @
@@ |_   _| @@ Email addresses:             @   don't you?"           @
@@   | |   @@ Julie@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu @  --Monty Python's THE   @
@@@  |_|  @@@ Julie@drycas.bitnet          @    MEANING OF LIFE      @
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Wed, 12 Aug 1992 10:16:01 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: George Bush on abortion

Oh, Please!

Do we have to go through this again?  Bush articulated the compassionate
prolife position eloquently.  The question "who else's would it be?"
is NOT an admission of prochoice sentiment; it is an acknowledgment of the
FACT of the physical situation.  Short of tying his granddaughter to a post
and watching her 24 hours a day, he can no more stop her from having an
abortion physically than he can stop her, when she is not physically in
his presence, from committing suicide, running over small children, or
burning down the White House.  That would not make any of those things
right.

No human being has the ABILITY to stop another from performing an act without
both physical proximity and physical coercion.  Surely he made this clear
by referencing other heinous acts she might decide to commit.  Prolife
people do not live in a fantasy world.  They recognize that there is a
certain point at which nothing more can be done.  Once an evil act has
been committed, they recognize, as well, the duty to extend forgiveness
and love to those who have committed the act.  Often, those who commit
the act refuse forgiveness, maintaining that they did nothing wrong.
Then they decide that those who offer that forgiveness are unkind,
judgmental, and fascistic.  There is no love in pretending that evil is
good.

I may not trust Bush on this issue, because of his past history.  But I
have to admit, he has been committed to the cause since 1980, and he
hasn't made any mistakes so far.

--Missy Prez 2 B
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 14:48:33 EDT
From:         Evelyn Duncan <R3EJD@AKRONVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: ghwb=missy justice (ms justice

Fred,
  I knew Missy from the CHRISTIA list, and she was a Christian before
she joined the POLITICS list and became a candidate.  She's sincere.

Evelyn Duncan
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Original_To:  JNET%"politics@ohstvma"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 09:51:00 CST
From:         POHENRY@STMARYTX.BITNET
Subject:      Voting Rights Extension Act

I
Concerning H.R. 5236, the Voting Rights Extension Act of 1992.
I don't know the answer to your question.  However, I do know that
Rep. Livingston's argument is ludicrous.  It is not the pre-clearance
provisions which cause the odd shaped districts but the negotiations
between interested parties during the redistricting process.  Sometimes
this process is affected by pending or threatened litigation at other
times it is not.
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Original_To:  BITNET%"POLITICS@OHSTVMA.BITNET"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1992 11:57:00 EST
From:         linda <SABOE@VUVAXCOM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: direct mail from jail

>Thinking about the book contract thing again, here's a tentative
>opinion:  if you write a book *while* in prison, whatever the
>subject, you are doing so using the good offices of the state, and
>without the time (in prison) to do so, you would have been unable to
>generate the income.  Therefore, the state should have ownership of the
>proceeds.

hmmm. i have a little trouble w/this. i don't think prisoners should be
able to be gainfully employed by outside firms as long as they are in
prison. for both protection of public and prisoners (think about abuses on
both ends of spectrum-experimental medical procedures in exchange for reduced
sentences or monetary gain).

but i don't feel the state should own the proceeds of a book or whatever after
publication. what should be done, if publication happens while in prison, the
money should be held in some sort of account. at release time, state should
be reimbursed for expenses incurred by inmate, and difference pd. to inmate.
if inmate dies, his heirs should get the difference.


>I don't know how we could handle the situation of writing a book *after*
>leaving prison, if it draws on that experience.

what's to handle?
when the inmate is released from prison, the debt is paid, the state should
have no say in anything money he makes after his release.

>In my
>opinion.

you forgot the humble part :)

>--Missy P 2 B

linda
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Wed, 12 Aug 1992 14:25:34 EDT
From:         todd pukanecz <CCCS@VTVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: from the battered wives

>This isn't really politics, but it's starting to bug me.  Wasn't
>"Rufus T. Firefly" a fictional character (a persona of either
>WC Fields or Groucho Marx?)?  If so, in what?
>
I just watched "Duck Soup" again this past weekend.  Rufus T. Firefly is
Groucho's character who is thrust into the leadership of the country
Freedonia.  A hilarious romp with some definitive Marx Brother's
schtick (the mirror bit, the hat bit).  And some surprisingly biting
political commentary thrown in with the silliness.  My favorites are
when Groucho sings

"The last guy nearly ruined this place
 he didn't know what to do with it.
 If you think the country's bad off now,
 just wait till I get through with it!"

and when singing about all the thing's he'll forbid,

"If any form of pleasure is exhibited,
 just come to me, I'll see that it's prohibited.
 I'll put my foot down
 so shall it be.
 This is the land of the free!"
    todddddddd
>--Missy Prez 2 B

=========== Wake up John Doe.  You're the hope of the world! ===========
--------     /^^\    ---- Todd Pukanecz ----   ----  CCCS@VTVM1  ----
-----      /      >   --- Ag. Econ. DPL --- "It is not enough to be
---  /\_ / @       \   -- Virginia Tech --   Hungarian.  One must also
-  /________________>   - Blacksburg VA -    have talent." - UNKNOWN
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1992 10:52:00 EDT
From:         "Peter J. Schledorn" <UNCPJS@UNC.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Voting

> I wonder how many places use paper ballots, how many use voting machines,
> and how many use computer punch cards?  Which are faster to tabulate:
> the machines or the punch cards?

Here, in semi-rural North Carolina, we use computer-counted paper
ballots (it's like taking the GRE's again).  That means that the
bottleneck is not in getting your ballot, or in finding a place to
stand while you mark it, it's in getting your hands on one of the
special pens that is filled with the ink that the machine can read.
(No number 2 pencils here).

The ballots are printed on long, thin cards and when you're done you
put each card into a machine that looks suspiciously like a paper
shredder.  The card disappears into a box below and the machine counts
all of your votes.  At the end of the day, I'm told all the poll
workers have to do is to open the top of the machine and read the
counters.

Surreal.

Best,
Peter

> Evelyn
(BTW, the major cities tend to use machines)
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 12:28:00 -0400
From:         "Men-- can't live with 'em,
              can't shoot 'em" <JULIE%DRYCAS.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU@CARNEGIE.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: GOP & equality

> Julie,
> Your reaction to the possibility of Quayle as presidential material is
> typical of one based upon the character assassination techniques of the
> media.  You should work to become more analytical and discerning of the
> *information* you are fed by these bastions of liberalism.

You're jumping to some awful quick conclusions there, Robert.

I am against Quayle being president because I think he is a dangerous
man and it's not because he's portrayed as a buffoon by the media.  He
_is_ in my opinion, a buffoon, but he is also a buffoon who could do
this country a great deal of damage if placed in the oval office.

I think your comments about the "bastions of liberalism" are basically
buzz words designed to create an effect and I doubt you genuinely
believe that the media has this great liberal agenda which you imply.
And as you might note, I was recently quite analyitical in response to
your nonsensical commentary regarding AIDS statistics, so I don't
think you are in much of a position to be addressing my ability to
discern "information."

> I would be much happier with the Republican ticket if the roles were
> reversed.

You mean Barbara and Maralyn running?

--Julie


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@@  _____  @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
@@ / ___ \ @@ Julie Waters                 @ Mother: "Is it a boy or @
@ / /   \ \ @ P. O. Box 23040              @   a girl?"              @
@ \ \___/ / @ Providence, RI 02903-0394    @ Doctor: "I think it's a @
@@ \__ __/ @@ (401)-273-4851               @   bit early to start    @
@@  _| |_  @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@   imposing roles on it, @
@@ |_   _| @@ Email addresses:             @   don't you?"           @
@@   | |   @@ Julie@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu @  --Monty Python's THE   @
@@@  |_|  @@@ Julie@drycas.bitnet          @    MEANING OF LIFE      @
@@@@     @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
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Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 13:05:28 CDT
From:         fred <CCHILDER@UNMCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      ask andy

Andy says that progress has been made on the environment in the past
20 years. end of story. A typical republican approach; I say it is so,
that makes it so.

Let's see some facts and figures to back up your claim. Care to debate
the effectiveness of the superfund for environmental cleanup? Let's talk
about standards for auto emmissions and factory/refinery output into
the air.

The main thrust wasn't that ghwb is obligated to debate at his photo ops.
The point is that a true president of the people would be happy to handle
questions on his policies instead of blaming congress for not passing them.
We don't know what george really means unless we ask questions. Only those
with something to hide refuse to discuss their record.
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Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 15:04:41 -0500
From:         ANTHLAL@UMNACVX.BITNET
Subject:      i are a kollidge stoodint

well, i'm not very computer-literate.  i am, on the other hand,
bright enough to do something they teach lots of eighth-graders to do:
compare and contrast.
dan quayle and george bush said nothing new in their speeches last night.
they said virtually nothing that was not grounded in p.r.
i don't support bill clinton, i don't support george bush, actually i
don't support any mainstream candidate because they never say anything that
is not calculated to produce maximum effect with minimum expenditure of
energy.
i'd love to stay and chat, but there's a party being thrown with your tax
dollars over in the ski-u-mah faculty lounge, where we aspiring faculty hope
to plot our strategy to warp your children's minds when they get here.

                          * * * anneliese "i'll be teaching satanism 101" l.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 11:53:00 EDT
From:         Travis Kidd <TKIDD@CLEMSON.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: About Buchanan

On Wed, 19 Aug 1992 08:43:15 CDT Sue Clark <SACLARK@UNMCVM.BITNET> said:
> However, even the various medias know..and have said.. that after any politica
l
> convention there is always the over-inflated point hype that always fades.
> So, even after the Republican Convention there will be the usual 'surge', but
> the points will even out to a lot closer race as the days pass.
Just to nitpick, the word "media" is a plural in itself, the singular
being "medium" (i.e. of communication).

> Sue Clark
-Travis
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Organization: Computer Science Department,  Stanford University.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Wed, 12 Aug 1992 11:42:59 -0700
From:         Andy Freeman <andy@SAIL.STANFORD.EDU>
Subject:      Re: George Bush on abortion

>Isn't Bush's "Who else's could it be?" answer an articulation of the
>Pro-Choice position?

His actual statement no more an articulation of a pro-choice position
than it is an articulation of a pro-robbery position.

He said that abortion is wrong and that he'd do lots of things to
discourage the exercise of that choice by his relatives.  However,
once they do it, he's not going to abandon them, he'll still love
them.  So what?  Wanna bet he'd also pay for their lawyer if they
killed someone?  Does that make him pro-murder?

Then again, maybe I misunderstand the argument being offered.  Are you
folks claiming that any parent who doesn't throw a drug-using kid to
the wolves is "pro-drug"?  (By that standard, Carter is pro-drug.)

Suppose Clinton's children do something that he says that he
disapproves of strongly.  If he continues to love them afterwards, if
he does anything to help them afterwards, does that mean that he
actually doesn't disapprove of what they did (at least as far as
they're concerned)?  No?

If you can't make your argument without distorting Bush's position ....

-andy still thinks bush is the anti-christ
--
UUCP:    {arpa gateways, sun, decwrl, uunet, rutgers}!cs.stanford.edu!andy
ARPA:    andy@cs.stanford.edu
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Fri, 14 Aug 1992 12:57:00 EDT
From:         "Carl A. Lahetta" <U952020@RUTADMIN.BITNET>
Subject:      My Local Malls

   In NJ there are alot of malls.  Within about a twenty minute to half an
hour drive there is the: Menlo Park Mall, Bridgewater Mall, Short Hills
Mall, East Brunswick Mall, Freehold Mall, Eatontown Mall, Wood Bridge Mall,
Seaview Square Mall, and two mini-malls, the Manalapan and Middlesex Malls.
The Short Hills mall is were all the very very expensive stores are located.
Bridgewater is also an upscale mall but not as much as Short Hills.  All
the other malls are run of the mill malls.  I like the malls that have
Lord and Taylor, Macy's, Nordstrom's, Banana Republic, William Sonoma, and
so on.  My taste far exceed my income, but that gives me something to
aspire to.  Oh, I forgot Coach, great brief cases, and my wife likes
Talbots,the Limited, and others as well.
   The food eateries can cater to just about any taste.  It seems as if the
soda shop has fallen to the wayside and the malls have stepped in to the
void.  Come to think of it why are some social scientist so intrigued by
teens gathering at the mall?  Where else are they going togather since the
soda shop the researcher use to hang out at is no longer there any more.
How soon the reasearchers forget what it was like to be a teen in need of a
place to hang out and be seen.  In my days it was a great place to meet
girls.  Yuck cooties :-)


Carl--------------+
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1992 10:37:48 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Voting

Evelyn:

I'm not sure if there would be a difference in tabulation times.  If
my understanding of the machine is correct (i.e., that there are
paper ballots inside of them), the ballots have to be hand-counted
either way.  Of course, the counting mechanism of the machine can
be used to give an *unofficial* tabulation, but I think that the
*official* results can only be given after ballots are hand-counted.
If I'm wrong about the paper in the machine thing, though, the
machine would be faster, since the calculations would be made
throughout the day, and would be available when the polls close.
Hmmmm.  Anybody know for sure if there are paper ballots inside the
mechanical machines?

--Missy P 2 B
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Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 14:29:51 -0400
From:         KILBURN@WVSVAX.WVNET.EDU
Subject:      faculty elite?

Hi, y'all:
I don't know how many of us on this list are faculty members, so this may
be irrelevant -- but I have some questions about our elite status.  First,
how many of us work on campuses that have faculty clubs?  How many of us
belong to those clubs?  I was going to ask about salaries, too, but that's
too personal :)

Anyway, my campus doesn't have a faculty club (we had a faculty lunchroom,
a small room adjoining the cafeteria, but it was taken away from us :().
My grad school had one, but it was mostly a place for a few faculty members
to wine and dine seminar speakers and prospective financial patrons.  Only
a couple of my department's 36 or so faculty belonged.

I'd be happy to receive and compile any and all replies.  Thanks!

Kerry
faculty, but not elite :)
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1992 10:18:06 EDT
From:         Jamie <PL436000@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: I know that you probably don't like people cro

Dearest Dunstan,

A voting machine looks a bit like a shower stall. The voter enters and
pulls a lever, closing the curtain. The voter then flips little
switches, or toggles, or something like that, next to the name of the
desired candidate (or next to the title of the referendum, etc.).
Finally, the voter pulls the big lever again, opening the curtain and
automatically recording the vote (and resetting the little switches).
Another triumph of American ingenuity.

In Cambridge, MA, they still use paper ballots. And they have
proportional representation for City Council. Counting the ballots is a
nightmare (I once did it).

Do you chaps have flush toilets yet?


Jamie
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1992 10:03:00 EDT
From:         K=A*T <MEC038@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject: Re: George Bush on Abortion
              12 Aug 1992 16:49:47 -0400 from <E7L8RAF@TOWSONVX>

From:         Steve Rafferty <E7L8RAF@TOWSONVX.BITNET>

> If the motivation to be pro-life is that abortion is murder, I would
> like a response something like:

>           She wanted to abort my grandchild? Murder her own child?
>           Certainly, I'd try to talk her out of it, make her aware
>           how seriously I see the situation.  As long as abortion
>           is not illegal, I could not *stop* her from doing it, but
>           though I would still love her, and try to forgive her -
>           our relationship would probably *never* be the same.

I agree with this and would like to add the following.  Much
has been made (in defense of Bush) of the fact that abortion
is not illegal now.  OK, tell me, how would Bush's answer have been
different if abortion was illegal?  Would he have reported his daughter
to the police?  I would not have done such thing myself especially
if it was after the fact.  Now to those of you who think Bush would
have reported her daughter or at least forced her not to go through
with the abortion, I have the following question.  How come he would
commit such a drastic act such as reporting her to the police if
abortion was illegal but he would do so mush as to even threaten
to disown her (ONLY a threat) now that abortion is legal.

I do not expect Bush or anybody else to turn their daughter to
the police or ultimately force them not to have the abortion.
What I do expect, however, from Bush or anybody else who thinks
abortion is murder to at least act as it was.

> Steve               "George Bush is the most deeply unprincipled
>                     man I have ever met."
                                   Bill Moyers

--KAT            "Dan Quayle is an example of how public education
                  has failed us."
                                   Bill Moyers

                 (The above was an approximate quote.  Moyers said
                  it much more succinctly than I.)
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.politics
Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 12:45:15 EST
From:         macphil <IQTI400@INDYCMS.IUPUI.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Somewhat Unusual "Family Values"
Comments: To: Forum for the Discussion of Politics <POLITICS@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu>
              20 Aug 1992 13:09:23 -0400 from <KILBURN@WVSVAX.WV NET.EDU>

On Thu, 20 Aug 1992 13:09:23 -0400 <KILBURN@WVSVAX.WVNET.EDU> said:

>working, but whose low skills level confines them to low-paying jobs.

And I'm sure now they wish they had worked harder while in school instead
of doodling little hearts in their notebooks and figuring ways to copy
someone's homework.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The lesser of two evils is still evil." - Winston Churchill

MacPhil / iqti400@indycms.bitnet / iqti400@indycms.iupui.edu