From: emm@daneel.rdt.monash.edu.au (Wendigo)
Subject: Sarcasm
Organization: Monash University, Melb., Australia.
Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1992 06:01:36 GMT

With all this discussion, I feel compelled to jump on the band-wagon.
(Was that sarcastic?)

From "The Pocket Macquarie Dictionary":

ironic, adj.
1) of, relating to, or marked by irony: an ironic complement.
2) using, or given to irony: an ironic speaker.

irony, n.
1) figure of speech or literary device in which the apparent meaning is the
opposite of that intended, & is made clear by context or tone.
[Judicious use of a smiley ( :-) ) could be of use here.] :-)
2) something said with irony.
3) pretended ignorance in discussion (Socratic irony).
4) effect or implication of a speeck or situation in a play, etc., understood
by the audience but not by the characters (Dramatic irony)
5) outcome of events opposite to what was, or might have been, expected.
   (Latin, from Greek: dissimulation, understatement)

sarcasm, n.
harsh or bitter words intended to hurt another person, esp. by saying the
opposite of what is meant.

sarcastic, adj.
1) marked by, of the nature of, or relating to sarcasm.  a sarcastic reply.
2) using, or given to the use of, sarcasm.

satire, n.
1) the use of irony, sarcasm, ridicule, etc; the showing up of something as
very silly, or as evil, by representing it in a laughable way.
2) literary work which does this.

And from the Oxford Pocket Dictionary

satire, n.
Form of literary medley amount the ancient Romans; composition in which vice or
folly or person as guilty of it is held up to ridicule, use of ridicule or
sarcasm or irony to expose & discourage vice & folly, thing that serves to
expose false pretensions.

Now we have the symantics.

Being born a strong Phlegmatic/Melancholy, I'm afriad I'm an incurable cynic
with a strong tendancy toward sarcastic/satiric/ironic wit.  So that's
where I'm coming from in this discussion.

From the above definitions I interpret sarcasm as the malicious use of irony,
and satire to the use of either sarcasm or irony.

I use to be very sarcastic, but over a process of self-evaluation, I've
tempered my humor (I hope) to the use of irony and satire over sarcasm.

>I can see your point, though, John, about the possibility of directing it at
>ideas rather than people. The problem, though, is that most people do not 
>exercise that sort of control/differentiation. Most of what I've seen here on

This is my point.  Because of where I am now I find I exercise a lot more
control over my satiric humor.

> The key is to communicate as effectively as possible, without breaking
> God's command to love one's neighbor as oneself.  Sometimes sarcasm
> *is* the most effective form of communication, but effective
> communication does not take precedence over love.

Satire can be a very effective way of communicating, case in point:
Steve Taylor.

Songs like "Whatever Happened To Sin?", "I Want To Be A Clone",
"We Don't Need No Color Code", and even "I Blew Up The Clinic Real Good"
are prime examples of the use of satire to make a point.  The topics of these
songs ( The condoning by Christians of homosexuality and abortion, Christians
who use their cookie cutter to decide what christians should be like, instead
of Gods cookie cutter, racism in churches, and that the end does not
justify the means, repectively) is made very strongly and sometimes, that's
needed.  Sometimes people need the sharp knife to cut the rot out so they
can be healed up properly.

It seems that Christians periodically need a kick up the pants (is that
a local idiom?) to get them going.

BTW,
idiom, n.
1) form of expression peculiar to a language, exp. one having a meaning other
than its literal one, such as "It's raining cats & dogs."
2) variety or form of a language.
3) peculiar character of a language.
4) distinct style or character, as in music, art, etc: "the idiom of Bach."

You can also find examples of satire in the Bible (gasp!)

When the prophet of God taunted the prophets of Baal while they were trying
to draw fire out of the sky, encouraging them to cry louder, maybe their
god was asleep or in the bathroom.

And the parable by Jesus of the blind leading the blind (Luke 6:39-45)
Vs 42: Or how can you say to your brother, "Brother, let me remove the speck
that is in your eye," when you yourself do net see the plank that is in your
own eye?
I'm sure Jesus had the listeners in hysterics with this satirical comedy
(personally I think it must loose something in the translation as I don't
find it really that funny, I guess it's one of those ones were you really
had to be there.)

It's interesting to note that the point of this parable is similar to a verse
previously mentioned.

vs 45:
A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good: and
an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil.
For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.

>"A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth good things 
>and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
>But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall 
>give account thereof in the day of judgement.
>For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be
>condemned."
>                 Matthew 12:35-37

Unfortunately, as a previous poster mentioned, some people just never,
ever understand satire.

Take my campus worker from SFC (Students For Christ).  Poor Alison was
absolutely lost when it came to satire, but 12 months down the track she
came up to me once and said "I appreciate you because you've taught me
how to deal with people like you" which is probably the most unwittingly
ironic or satirical thing she has ever said.  (Right Rez?  I know you're
reading this.)

Another example is my mum (or mom for the uncivalised :-) who while recognises
satire, doesn't always appreciate or understand it.  She often says I've been
eating razor blades for breakfast when my brother, father and I (and girlfriend
on occasion) start up the quips flying around the dinner table.

By way of the third example, a friend of mine loved Steve Taylor's music, but
never understood what the lyrics were trying to say exactly.  I often served
as an interpretor whenever Steve brought out a new album.  He appreciated
satire but wasn't always able to understand it without explanation.

I often use a satirical or ironic comment to make a point, even in the
discipleship group I attend.  It isn't always understood (except by my
girlfriend who didn't have a satirical bone in her body until she met me)
and sometimes people think I'm being funny or making light of a situation
when in fact I'm being deadly serious, but then again I don't always understand
the point they're trying to make in their own fashion, so we take it easy,
give explanations when needed.  Part of the fun of being in a room full of
strong personalities.  Makes life interesting when you are accountable to
such a group and your pastor...

Satire and irony (as apposed to sarcasm, which according to the dictionary
is the malicious use of irony) I feel, are tools like music, or a car which
is neither inherently good or evil.  People get killed everyday in car
accidents, but is the car evil??  A car is an inanimate object which can
be used for either purpose, such is irony.

Wow, 157 lines.  Thanks to those who persisted in reading all this.  I hope
it may of been of some useful input.  It's a topic that I've struggled with
for the past few years and so is of interest to me.

Evan.

"You say humanist philosophy is what it's all about,
 You're so open minded that your brains leaked out."
  -- Steve Taylor, Whatcha Gonna Do When Your Numbers Up?

"You'll march if all the streets are full,
 A two bit closet radical.
 No time to check the end result,
 Expedience is your catapult.
 Convictions make your skin to crawl,
 You act like your above it all.
 You say faith is a crutch,
 For a mind that's closed.
 You guzzle your crutch,
 And shove it up your nose."
  -- Steve Taylor, Bad Rap (Who You Tryin' To Kid Kid?)

"The Christian counselor wrote, quote,
 It's the only human choice ahead.
 If you can't support it,
 Why don't you abort it instead?
 He said you pray to the sky,
 Why, when you're afraid to take a stand down here.
 'Cause while the holy talk reads like a bad ad lib,
 Silence screams you are robbing the crib,
 Say it ain't none of my business huh,
 A woman's got a right to choose.
 Now a grave-digger,
 Next you pull the trigger,
 What then?
 Whatever happened to sin?"
  -- Steve Taylor, Whatever Happened To Sin?

"I asked the Lord into my heart,
 They said that was the way to start,
 But now you've got to play the part,
 I want to be a clone.

 Be a clone and kiss conviction goodnight.
 Cloneliness is next to Godliness right?
 ..."
  -- Steve Taylor, I Want To Be A Clone

"Send in the clones"
  -- Steve Taylor, I Want To Be A Clone

-- 
Wendigo   [ Occasionally thought of as     | What can you say about a
            emm@daneel.rdt.monash.edu.au ] | society that believes God is
   { Sometimes answers to Evan McLean }    | dead and Elvis is Alive?