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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 17:44:09 MST
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         Roger Wilson <rwilson@ACS.UCALGARY.CA>
Subject:      Re: The reality of the Clinton school choice.
              "gallagherj@SATURN.GLASSBORO.EDU" at Jan 24, 93 4:47 am

John V. Gallagher:

>Roger Wilson and others have criticized the Clintons over
>Chelsea's placement in a private school. I can't understand how
>educators miss the difference between some haughty philosophical
>stance and reality. We are not dealing with some inanimate object
>but a human being

Hardly haughty, my friend. I fully appreciate the possible
differences between philosophical stances and their pragmatic
realities. I just get a little tired of politicians hauling out
their kids for campaign exploitation and then flip-flopping. I
would never suggest that Chelsea be "sacrificed" educationally so
Clinton could say he kept his word. You've apparently missed the
nuances of my argument choosing instead to attack a point I did
not make.


>I wonder whether these critics from Canada
>and rural areas have experienced the difficult and dangerous
>situation in many of our urban schools.

No, urban America is the only place in the world where these
problems occur. I would suggest that perhaps big cities in most
of the industrialized world have schools with not too dissimilar
problems (drugs, violence though probably not guns) to some
degree or another. The U.S. may well have a higher incidence,
though.

The rest of your discussion was self-evident.
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 12:06:49 EST
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         peter lau <72460.3000@COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject:      Clinton's school choice

Those of you who supported Clinton's school choice seem to believe that
there should be a difference between Clinton the private citizen (and father
and mother and 12 year old) and Clinton the public person.  My point is that
there can be no such separation.  They made the choice to be public, and are
public 24 hours a day.  They can't turn this on and off.  While Chelsea did
not choose this life, this is her life anyway.  She, unfortunately, has no
choice in this matter.  She was born to it just like Prince Charles was.
Whatever they do, either as President or as parents, are public choices.

peter lau
uc riverside
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Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 17:50:00 EST
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         WEIDMAN@PITTVMS.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Send a message to Riley

For more than two decades, there has been such a paltry budget for
investigator-initiated educational research projects that very little of
what I would call legitimately "basic" work on education has been funded.
Between the labs and centers, the feds and local interest groups have
increasingly set the agenda for educational research rather than the scholars
and researchers.  Further, this has led to the pursuit of a more and more
overtly political educational research agenda.  Hence, my recommendation is
that the educational research enterprise be viewed in similar ways to the
medical research enterprise, with significant sums being allocated for
competitive awards to investigator-initiated projects.
John Weidman, School of Education, University of Pittsburgh
(412)648-1772    WEIDMAN@PITTVMS
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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 21:54:31 -0500
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         Lee Wolfle <WOLFLE@VTVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      Outgoing and Incoming Presidents ...

   I grew up in Washington, D.C., and have seen a lot of administrations
come and go.  For the most part, they are supposed to be amiable,
certainly constitutional.
   Not in any law, but by practice, an outgoing President asks for
the resignations of his "top" executive officials, and simply leaves
those letters on the desk of his successor.
   This provides for a smooth transition, during which the outgoing
officials can seek other employment, while still occupied, and
providing much-needed advice to the incoming Cabinet Secretaries,
and the like.  And, of course, as the Secretaries and the President
find competent replacements, those letters of resignation are
accepted.
   Not George Bush!  He demanded letters of resignation from all of
his top officials, and accepted them all before he left office.
A lot of words come to mind: 'petulant', perhaps; 'juvenile'
might fit; I have even thought of 'unpatriotic.'

   In the meantime, many subscribers to this list seem most
concerned about whether a 12-year-old child should attend Sidwell
Friends school.

   Let's let that lie.  As Bloggins's 20th working rule states,
"The only practical problem is what to do next."

                                 Lee Wolfle
                                 WOLFLE at VTVM1
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Date:         Thu, 28 Jan 1993 00:23:00 EST
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         SJWST14@PITTVMS.BITNET
Subject:      Unsub

Sorry to send this to the general list.


Please Unsub sjwst14
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Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 14:57:58 MST
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         AHKAM@ASUACAD.BITNET
Subject:      Great Books

Before this discussion gets lost in the deluge of responses for research
agendas, I would like to reply to an earlier request for book title to
diversify the "classics" list.
The reason for my initial observations of ignored voices was not necessarily
to then include them.  It seems to me, that there is a problem with the notion
of "classic" which is way the conversation originated.  "Classics" are culture
(and therefore normative) bound.  They reflect a specific and privileged
position in society.  This position is reinforced by the historical nature of
"classics".  New authors and new voices find it difficult to break into the
mainstream.
Another problem, it seems to me is the focus of books.  Books, by virtue of the
way they are published (ie. economic consideration and academic review) tend to
limit positions outside the mainstream.  If you want to know what people on the
margins have to say, you need to look at the underground publications from
these groups whether they be women's groups, ethnic groups, gay and lesbian
groups, or political fringe groups.
So rather than attempting to infuse this literature into a list of "classics" I
would suggest either another type of list or a change in the title.  Indeed,
there is a danger that when these publications get wider distribution they lose
their function.

KYLE MESSNER
Arizona State University
College of Education
Payne 204B
602-965-3902
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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 16:47:47 -0500
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         TJPUGH@SUVM.BITNET
Subject:      what schools are for

Greg Kirschner made the following observation some
time back regarding what schools are for:

"... so what their experience
in school is like will influence how children feel about their government,
in the future, and how they feel about themselves."

Greg might be on to something here.  Schools do serve
an assimulation function while representing, in some
ways, that to which they assimilate children.  What
impact does the experience of schooling have on a child's
view of public institutions?  I'm not referring to
critiques such as Bowles and Gintis regarding the
construction of personality, character, relationship
to and definition of authority, and the like.  Although
that may be part of it.  I thinkl I'm asking a more simple
question.
--tom m-p
* * * * * * * * * * * *
Tom Mauhs-Pugh
Cultural Foundations of Education

259 Huntington Hall         TJPUGH@SUVM.BITNET
Syracuse University       TJPUGH@SUVM.ACS.SYR.EDU
Syracuse, New York
             13244        (315) 443-3343
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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 14:02:00 CDT
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         "John O. Wong" <JOHNWONG@MACC.WISC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Survey regarding campus smoking policies

Tom,

There is absolutely no smoking inside ANY university building.  Our city
regulates smoking in "public" areas such as restaurants, and yes, bars.  Most
likely, there will be no smoking inside restaurants in the near future, but
bars maybe exceptions.

Faculty and staff offices are considered INSIDE a university building.
Result:  People who really have to take a puff must choose between that or
freezing their butts!


                                    # John Wong (608)263-3025
                                    # johnwong@wiscmacc.bitnet
                                    # johnwong@macc.wisc.edu
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Date:         Wed, 27 Jan 1993 15:30:38 EST
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         "Michael S. Hines" <MSHINES@FREH-03MS.ADPC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject:      social policy

John...you got it.  It all depends on perspective.  If you do it, its
social policy...., if I do it, its choice..my American right!

and vis a versa, of course!

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Internet:  mshines@ia.purdue.edu      |  Michael S. Hines
Bitnet:  michaelh@purccvm             |  Internal Auditor-EDP
Purdue WIZARD Mail: MSHINES           |  Purdue University
GTE Net: (317) 494-5845               |  1065 Freehafer Hall
                                      |  West Lafayette, IN 47907-1065
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Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 09:00:00 CDT
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         "John O. Wong" <JOHNWONG@MACC.WISC.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Clinton's school choice

Concerning the aims of education, Craig Howley writes,

>Just maybe, Bill Clinton
>believes that the end of education is economic competitiveness ....
>Even if he HAD sent Chelsea to the DC Wilderness,
>however, we'd still be stuck with his faulty notion of the aims of education.

Herein lies one of the main reasons why people disagree on ways to run our
schools.  What is primary purpose of education?  Why do we have schools?
What are schools suppose to do for us, for our kids?

Is it suppose to help us become better citizens, better human beings?
Or is it suppose to help us get higher paying jobs?  Is schooling about
personal growth, knowledge, citizenship, skills, or job training?

Do all schools have to be the same?  Or can there be different schools?
Must they teach identical subjects, or can there be different subjects?
Do parents decide how and where to bring up their children, or does the
government decide?

What does it mean to have schools in a "democracy"?  What is "democracy"?



                                    # John Wong (608)263-3025
                                    # johnwong@wiscmacc.bitnet
                                    # johnwong@macc.wisc.edu
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Date:         Fri, 22 Jan 1993 11:53:27 -0500
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         Mark Steinberger <mark@CSC.ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: Re: What is a school for?

Jonona S. Young writes:

>Might I add John, are the ethics and values of the work place all we
>would like to teach our children?

The question is whose values we are going to teach our children.

The values of the workplace and of polite public interaction should be
taught to all students in school, as that is a necessity. But deeper
values are more personal and should be left to families.

--Mark
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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 16:51:08 -0500
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         JFCOVALE@SUVM.BITNET

I guess I am still flunking logic.  Maybe someone can provide remediation for
me.

Clinotn said Chelsea attended public schools in Little Rock.  That's a state-
ment of fact.  He said he wil ladvocate public policies that support the
public schools.  Maybe he will, maybe he won't.  I'll judge his legis;ative
proposals when he makes them.  His daughter, byt whatever means the decision
was made, will attend a private school for reasons we can only guess at.  I am
obviously missing the logical connection that suggests that his advocacy for
policies that will improve the public schools (conceivably even to the point
where Chealsea would like to go to one) is thereby proved hypocritical.

And the policy issue, as Anne so rightly poined out, is hardly whether
Chelsaea's attendance at a middle school in DC would have improved that school;
the issue ios quality of public education provided to the least powerful
members of our society.


****************************************************************
*                                                              *
*                    John F. Covaleskie                        *
*      Cultural Foundations of Education and Curriculum        *
*  259 Huntington Hall                                         *
*  Syracuse University                 Maloff Towers, #2       *
*  Syracuse, NY  13244                 Chittenango, NY  13037  *
*  315/443-3343                        315/687-5595            *
*                   JFCOVALE@SUVM.BITNET                       *
*                                                              *
****************************************************************
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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 18:53:00 CDT
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         "John O. Wong" <JOHNWONG@MACC.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re:

Scottie,

> I asked several similar questions last week.  No one bothered to answer
> those either.

Well, at the risk of doing the obvious, let me say it loud.
People did not "bothered to answer" because they probably thought you have
all the answers you need already, i.e., in the party platform you cited.

Allow me to be redundant and borrow a few words from you again:

> Lord, lead me to those who seek the truth.
> And deliver me from those who have found it (in some party plank or
 platform).

Amen.



                                    # John Wong (608)263-3025
                                    # johnwong@wiscmacc.bitnet
                                    # johnwong@macc.wisc.edu
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Date:         Tue, 26 Jan 1993 22:04:18 -0500
              <EDPOLYAN@ASUACAD.BITNET>
From:         TJPUGH@SUVM.BITNET
Subject:      books

Bob Stout's list of books reminded me of a novel
that I'd like to add to the lists:
Nervous Conditions by Tsitsi Dangarembga
* * * * * * * * * * * *
Tom Mauhs-Pugh
Cultural Foundations of Education

259 Huntington Hall         TJPUGH@SUVM.BITNET
Syracuse University       TJPUGH@SUVM.ACS.SYR.EDU
Syracuse, New York
             13244        (315) 443-3343
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X-Acknowledge-To: <U2347@WVNVM>
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.spires-l
Date:         Sun, 24 Jan 1993 10:40:39 EST
From:         "Thomas L. Blaskovics" <U2347@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Test

This is a test message.  I am not sure that I am getting to the outside
world.  Please let me know.

 Thanks,
 Tom Blaskovics
 U2347@WVNVM            BITNET   Address
 U2347@WVNVM.WVNET.EDU  INTERNET Address
 What I think and say is not attributable to anybody else
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 08:55:47 EST
From:         "Thomas L. Blaskovics" <U2347@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Prototype

Thanks to the people who responded, confirming that I had not moved to
another planet.
  We have just finished developing a prototype database that maintains an
inventory of keys (the kind that opens and closes doors).  I would be very
much interested in contacting anybody who has labored in this area to
compare notes.

 Thanks,
 Tom Blaskovics
 U2347@WVNVM            BITNET   Address
 U2347@WVNVM.WVNET.EDU  INTERNET Address
 What I think and say is not attributable to anybody else
From: Sandy.Laws@STANFORD.BITNET (Sandy Laws)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.spires-l
Subject: Re: Test
Date: 25 Jan 93 15:26:39 GMT
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Comments: To: spires-l@pucc.bitnet

REPLY TO 01/25/93 01:42 FROM SPIRES-L@PUCC.BITNET "SPIRES Conference List":
Test

Hi Tom,

Did receive your message at 01:42 on Monday morning - so you do
seem to be getting through.  I don't know of anyone around here
who has done a "keys" database but will check around.  Nice to
hear from you.

Sandy

To:  SPIRES-L@PUCC.BITNET
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 08:10:59 -0500
From:         "Wm. L. Ranck" <ranck@JOESBAR.CC.VT.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Test
Comments: To: SPIRES-L@pucc.PRINCETON.EDU
              Blaskovics" at Jan 24, 93 10:40:39 am

In a message Thomas L. Blaskovics said:
>
> This is a test message.  I am not sure that I am getting to the outside
> world.  Please let me know.
>

Tom,
   It got here this morning, but I know for a fact that your note was
not here last night at about 11:00PM.  So it took more than 12 hours
to get here.  Must be some slow electrons somewhere.
--

*******************************************************************************
* Bill Ranck                                          ranck@joesbar.cc.vt.edu *
* Computing Center at Virginia Tech, not Vermont ----------------------^^     *
*******************************************************************************
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Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 14:02:42 EST
From:         Jean Blyth <JBLYTH@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Test

Hi Tom.  Got your mail here at WSU ok...
Jean
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Date:         Sun, 24 Jan 1993 02:40:54 GMT
From:         Cosma Papouis <papouis@TOWER-UNIX.CITY-POLY.AC.UK>
Subject:      Re: Dive Training Mag

>
> If there are any people that still want to subscribe to Dive Training
> magazine, please email me and I will be glad to send you a sub card.
>
> The current issue is a very good one about tank infromation and also
> some info about current shark research and the events off Hawaii,
> West coast of the U.S. and "Down under".
>
> Tim Chase A3TC@PSUORVM  (Bitnet)
>
Im interested

--
  ============================================================================
  "Depression is when you go to your psychiatrist suffering with Paranoia and
        he tells you you're not paranoid... Everybody DOES hate you!!!!"
  _____________________________________
   Disclaimer:- I speak for no-one     |  E-Mail: papouis@uk.ac.clp.unixa
                except maybe MYSELF!!! |          C_PAPOUIS@uk.ac.clp.tvax
  ============================================================================
From: awright@gssec.bt.co.uk (Alan Wright)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.scuba-l
Subject: Re: Dive Training Mag
Date: 25 Jan 93 13:14:24 GMT
Organization: BT, Software Engineering Centre, Glasgow, UK

In article <SCUBA-L%93012315340904@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU>,
A3TC@PSUORVM.BITNET (Tim Chase) writes:
|> If there are any people that still want to subscribe to Dive Training
|> magazine, please email me and I will be glad to send you a sub card.
|> 
|> The current issue is a very good one about tank infromation and also
|> some info about current shark research and the events off Hawaii,
|> West coast of the U.S. and "Down under".
|> 
|> Tim Chase A3TC@PSUORVM  (Bitnet)

I tried to email you but it got bounced - it looked like a router
was down.

There are probably quite a few UK people interested in Dive Training
Magazine, so rather than sending everyone a subscription card would
it not be easier to post the address and telephone number here?

-- Alan
--------------------------------------------
awright@gssec.bt.co.uk (Alan Wright)
BT, Software Engineering Centre, Glasgow, UK
--------------------------------------------
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.scuba-l
Date:         Mon, 25 Jan 1993 08:30:00 CST
From:         Mahan_Stephen@LANMAIL.NCSC.NAVY.MIL
Subject:      Re: Pony bottles

> Continuation of dialog with Wrolf Courtney

As I understand it, the Navy does plenty of decompression diving, but only
on surface supplied air.  Is this correct in your experience?

Not entirely.  There are special circumstances involving rebreathers.
I've also seen an instructor do a decompression dive on a snorkel.
In a chamber, that is.

>Surface supply is not an option for most wreck divers.  Deco diving is
>therefore done on SCUBA, but only with full redundancy.  In wreck
>infested waters, e.g. New York/New Jersey, or the British Isles, a lot
>of the good wrecks are in the 100' to 150' range.  Less than 100' and
>they get knocked around a lot in the winter storms, less than 60' and
>the Coastguard wire drags them as a menace to shipping.  In this depth
>range, air diving with decompression stops is the most practical way to
>go.  A lot of the deep stuff is done with nitrox or pure oxygen on the
>shallow stops, typically only as a safety measure, since most of these
>divers are using commercial computers, which can currently only handle
>air.


>
>>The regs are overhauled every 6 months.  Pressure and depth gauges are
>>checked for accuracy/calibrated every 6 months.  Regulators are
>>checked before each water entry (air on, free breathing, no free
>>flow, tank pressure adequate).  The dive supervisor PERSONALLY
>>inspects each diver and fills out a checksheet before each water
>>entry.

>Your equipment maintenance and inspection level is probably beyond that
>of even the most safety conscious wreck diver (NOT AN OXYMORON).
>An especially interesting question for me how often you have fall back
>to plan B (buddy breathing and ascend.)

I've never had to do this.

>>We are planning to go to octopus rigs for each diver when we are able
>>to purchase the additional second stages.

>How would you feel about the wreck diver standard isolation manifold.
>This will mean that you have to move from yoke to DIN, and buy first
>stages as well as second stages, but you get complete redundancy, and
>the use of all your air for air sharing.

The Navy isn't going to invest the money to change over all the regs,
manifolds, and spares as well as train everyone.  It would be an
improvement in reliability but we don't have a problem now.  Also, as
you add complexity you add to the number of problems that occur and you
also add to the complexity of the corrective actions.  A twin
engine plane has twice the number of engine problems that a single
engine has.

>Wrolf Courtney

Steve Mahan

The above statements are my opinions only.
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