From: an3191@anon.penet.fi
Subject: INTERZINE #1 - A Talk with Jagwire X 
Organization: Anonymous contact service
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Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 02:43:37 GMT

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From wixer!cactus.org!lambada.oit.unc.edu!Mitchell.Porter@cs.utexas.edu  Wed Jan 20 04:58:54 1993
Message-Id: <9301190613.AA11432@lambada.oit.unc.edu>
Subject: INTERZINE #1 - A Talk with Jagwire X
To: future@nyx.cs.du.edu
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 93 1:13:03 EST
From: Mitchell Porter <wixer!cactus.org!lambada.oit.unc.edu!Mitchell.Porter@cs.utexas.edu>
Cc: autopia@cactus.org
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INTERZINE #1 --- JAGWIRE X (jagwire@wixer.cactus.org)

Interzine is an irregular e-zine devoted to "interviews in cyberspace".
It may be copied and distributed freely.

	This is a chat via IRC with Jagwire X, who recently created
the AUtopia mailing list (send subscription requests to
autopia-request@wixer.cactus.org) to discuss the idea of an
autonomous "New Edge" colony on an ocean-going vessel. He can also be
reached at the CyberSpace Institute BBS @ +1.512.469.0447.

/who #AUtopia
Channel    Nickname  S   User@Host (Name)
#AUtopia   Velax     H   daemon@BRADENVILLE.ANDREW.CMU.EDU
 (bblk09.edn.gu.edu.au)
#AUtopia   Jagwire X G@  anonymous@mickey.cc.utexas.edu (anonymous)

 
Velax     > Jagwire? this is mitch
Jagwire X > Hey.
Velax     > I'm just sending you mail but I guess I can abort that
Velax     > Where are you physically?
Jagwire X > Austin, Texas, USA
Jagwire X > And you?
Velax     > A computer lab, Griffith University, MT Gravatt campus, 
            Brisbane, Queensland, Australia
Jagwire X > What time is it?  6.00am or so?
Velax     > about 10 or 11 am here, I think..
Velax     > So you're in someone's apartment.. your own?.. on a terminal 
            over a modem, linked to a unix system..
Jagwire X > My apartment.  Connect to the University of Texas via. my 
            modem.
Velax     > Right.. I am always curious about the nature of a person's 
            access to the net, since I suspect that different people "see" 
            it in very different ways
Jagwire X > Are we interviewing, yet?
Velax     > :) good question
Velax     > I've got "capture" running
Velax     > So I guess this is "raw material" at the very least
Jagwire X > Cool...  well I'm ready whenever you are.  Yeah.  I interviewed 
            Andy Hawks this way (more or less).
Velax     > The first thing I always wanted to ask you, was: what *is* a 
            jagwire?
Jagwire X > Well, it cam about this way:  I was driving a rental car while
            tripping on acid and I had been reading a bunch of c-punk lit 
            at the time and I saw a huge billboard for a jaguar (the car).  
            And I had been thinking about aliases at the time, and I had 
            been thinking about aliases at the time, and I have always had 
            an affinity for cats.  So I sort of combined, jaguar/hardwired 
            into a single polychromatic word.
Velax     > aha.. 
Velax     > I had thought maybe a "jagwire" was some sort of "phreaker's 
            phriend", like a "plumber's helper".. some sort of wire you 
            stick in a machine to get it to do something
Jagwire X > Hey there's an idea.  Maybe I'll invent something like that.
Velax     > okay, so that's the jagwire part.. what about the "X"? is that 
            a Malcolm X reference? or something more generic?
Jagwire X > Oh, oh yeah...  also jag <which means more or less to be 
            wired>. The X is sort of an exclamation.  Say, to make it more 
            severe.
Velax     > hmm.. I thought it was meant to connote anonymity, like you had 
            to keep an alias in order to hide yourself from the forces of 
            law 'n order..I was just curious because both you and Blade X 
            have that extra 'x' on the end I thought it might be a .. not a 
            common thing, not a fashionable thing, but still a symbol 
            understood by a certain group of people, anyhow, aliases aren't 
            tremendously important.
Jagwire X > Yeah, Blade X got it from me and Menken X (who was cosysop on 
            my BBS for a long time).  To me and Menken X it is symbol, of 
            what?  Probably cynicism and craziness.
Velax     > heh
Velax     > Your bbs - that was where you interviewed Andy Hawks?
Jagwire X > Right, yeah.  He graciously called it long distance.
Velax     > Gee, that must have been expensive
Jagwire X > Probably around $15 American.
Velax     > So you run a bbs, and you're also creator of the whole AUtopia 
            enterprise, which I plan to get to in a moment; do you have any 
            other "enterprises"?
Jagwire X > Um... well, I am going to try once again to publish my 'zine
            (SunDog).  My girlfriend just bought a photocopier so... it 
            will be easier. Other than that I would say just general 
            wreaking havoc on cyberspace... blah blah blah.
Velax     > SunDog, yeah.. I had that word written down somewhere, as 
            something to ask about.. what would distinguish your zine from 
            the other underground / new edge zines that are already out 
            there? would it have a net incarnation as well as a hard copy 
            one, the way scream baby is the net form of screamin' me-me?
Jagwire X > Yeah, it would be published both hardcopy and on the net.  And 
            it will be small, more like rantings from the bowels of 
            cyberspace.  Scream Baby is the net form of Scream N *me*mes 
            which is also electronic but quarterly (I think, or at least it 
            was)
Velax     > "rantings from the bowels of cyberspace".. *grin*
Jagwire X > SunDog will probably be written by Menken X and I only.
Velax     > Is there a particular view or philosophy you would try to 
            promote?
Jagwire X > Hmm... yeah, I guess there is.  I am trying to promote more
            substance to the form that is developing.  Seems to me that the 
            whole New Edge movement lacks any real direction.  That's what 
            the whole AUtopia thing is about, really.
Velax     > aha, okay
Velax     > Well then, what is *your* philosophy? what do you think it's 
            all about? you said in the Andy Hawks interview you had your 
            life turned upside down by Wilson and Leary at age 14, or 
            something like that..
Jagwire X > Yeah, Wilson and Leary pretty much mangled my soft and mushy 
            grey matter.
Velax     > heh
Velax     > AUtopia certainly sounds like a goal in which just about the 
            whole 'new edge' could participate
Jagwire X > As for AUtopia I certainly hope so.  I haven't really done much 
            with it since Thanksgiving, but I now am getting some free 
            time.
Velax     > Where did the idea of an offshore new-edge colony come from? 
            Hagbard Celine? "Islands in the Net"?
Jagwire X > Well, actually.  No. It may have lodged itself in there 
            sometime on the past.  What really brought it on was a 
            discussion, similar to this, about the New Edge.
Velax     > I guess you just have to look at the world around you and ask, 
            "where can you *go*, physically, and be free?" and all the land 
            is taken up by the nation-states, so that leaves space, or the 
            sea..
Jagwire X > Right, exactly.  Where can I go to be free to pursue a life 
            without being policed by immature children playing with guns.
Velax     > And you were saying..?  that there was no direction, or no 
            common goal? [in that discussion, that is]
Jagwire X > In that discussion.  Yeah, there seems to be a lack of 'hard' 
            ideas to work toward, or even 'soft' ideas for that matter.
Velax     > Okay, so assuming that at some point in the future theres no 
            kids with guns around to bother the would-be  new-edge 
            explorers.. what sort of directions are you interested in?
            in the last AUtopia draft I saw you had everything from 
            nanotech to nootropics as topics of research
Jagwire X > Well, yeah, I am interested in technology and how it can be 
            used to improve the human condition.  I am a big fan of 
            Buckminster Fuller.  I agree with him that all life is 
            technology, and with the possibilities of nanotech and 
            geneering  it will be possible..to actually control the 
            technology of life.  I just want to live long enough for this 
            to be able to happen.  Wilson and Leary convinced me (at 14) 
            that I wanted to live forever (more or less, or at least until 
            I get bored).
Velax     > Have you ever read fm2030 [fm esfandiary?] are you on the 
            extropians list?
Jagwire X > I haven't read that.  I am on the Extropian essay list.
Velax     > But not the extropian general discussion list. Very high 
            traffic, there.
Velax     > esfandiary is another "transhumanist" philosopher
Velax     > So.. ideally, AUtopia could be a spawning ground for the 
            technologies and ways of life in the fuller-wilson-leary sort 
            of future, where the limits on the human condition are those of 
            imagination rather than biology?
Jagwire X > Yeah, exactly.  A mecca for creation.  A veritable cauldron of
            technological fertility.
Velax     > Well, I hope it happens. So far there's a mailing list and an 
            irc channel..
Jagwire X > Yeah, me too.  The mailing list is somewhat slow these days, 
            but that will change soon, I hope. 
Velax     > How do things look to you as far as the logistics 
            of actually acquiring an old destroyer, or something like that, 
            & fitting it out with all the communications tech, etc, that 
            you're after?
Jagwire X > Well, right now they look bleak.  I am certain that will 
            change, I need to spend sometime coordinating with people and 
            see what's out there. Right now, we are still mulling over the 
            possibilities.  There should be another FAQ out any time now 
            with more...ideas, possibilities and philosophy attached to it.
Velax     > Version 4.0?
Jagwire X > Yeah.  4.0  Maybe even some sketches in GIF format will be 
            available soon too.
Velax     > Have you contacted Pat Salsbury about his "Oceana" proposal at 
            all? I seem to recall that going out over exi-essay.
Jagwire X > Actually, I was contacted.  I have yet to get back to him, but 
            I am anticipating a mutual exchange of information.
Velax     > Yeah.. I only skimmed his proposal, but it was full of the 
            countercultural technosocial ideas, like Wilson's "trade aids"
            also at one time on the main extropians list there was a thread 
            about "ocean colonization" but I don't know what came of that. 
            you could ask someone who's a subscriber to check their 
            archives for that thread.
Jagwire X > It looks more thought out than mine, I'd say.  But soon I think 
            we will be on par. Yeah, I been meaning to subscribe to it 
            myself
Velax     > hmm. I think you had more details about what might be going on, 
            on board.
Velax     > Did you know that R A Wilson in Cosmic Trigger II says that 
            when he was a young anarchist he was interested in setting up 
            anarchist colonies in international waters? maybe you should 
            contact *him* too & see if he has any references or contacts or 
            ideas that could be relevant.
Jagwire X > Cool, I haven't read Cosmic Trigger II yet.
Velax     > The book's actually dedicated to Buckminster Fuller
Jagwire X > Heh, cool, not surprising though.
Velax     > So what else specifically does the AUtopia project need now? 
            apart from subscribers to the mailing list.
Jagwire X > People, who are interested in working on it, gathering info,
            coordinating various aspects.  Mostly organizational stuff at 
            this point.  Later it will need people (the same ones 
            hopefully) who want to do physical work.
Velax     > So you'd hope to soon reach the point where there is 
            effectively a specialization amongst the interested people? I 
            mean, one looking at legal stuff, another at onboard comm tech, 
            and so on..
Jagwire X > Yeah, I'd like to see different working groups that can get 
            down to the nitty gritty of various aspects of the project.  
            Once that happens things will get rolling.
Velax     > The previous AUtopia "position papers" or drafts describing the 
            concept had a neat listing of relevant topics & so on, would 
            that be how the working groups would come about? if someone 
            says, 'okay, I'll address section 3a..' and so on..
Jagwire X > In a way.  Yeah.  In the next version I should, hopefully, have 
            it broken up into different sections (for each working group).  
            So, yeah.
Velax     > It seems to me that a really vital thing now is coming up with 
            at least a hypothetical scenario whereby an actual 
            geographic location is found and actual hardware is procured. 
            otherwise it will remain just a fantasy. in this regard,
            I seem to recall that future culture carried some discussion of 
            where you might buy old destroyers from [was it eastern 
            European countries selling off their navies?], and the
            extropians thread on ocean colonization discussed whereabouts 
            in international waters you might have the least chance of 
            being harassed.. I think one of the optimum locations was off 
            some small southeast Asian nation.
Jagwire X > Yeah. Ideally, I would like to see a ship that can actually 
            move about.  If it was stationary I would think that a 
            southeast Asian nation would be a suitable locale.
Velax     > hmm.. the question of mobility is related to the question of 
            size, basically, I think. you need to know what sort of vessels 
            are available - submarines? destroyers? crude oil carriers? etc 
            etc. heh just had an idea. maybe you could learn from L Ron 
            Hubbard's "sea org", he had a private flotilla of yachts or 
            something like that.
Jagwire X > Getting the hardware is going to be the most difficult part.  
            And it will require some preparation on the part of the people 
            involved.  It will take some time to accomplish (at best).  
            Even so if it does not come to fruition, it still is an 
            excellent... mental exercise for the parties involved.
Velax     > hmm. if, say, AUtopia foundered in its present form, for one 
            reason or another, then the thought which had gone into the 
            social and technical aspects might prove useful to future 
            attempts to design new edge communities, but.. nonetheless 
            there are a lot of issues specifically relating to the idea of 
            a new-edge colony *at sea*. and they are the most difficult 
            ones, as far as actually achieving this goes.
Jagwire X > True.
Velax     > but it's hard to see where else a new-edge colony could go, in 
            the near future. I used to think about having some sort of 
            research community in the Australian outback, but most of that 
            land is either barren or belongs to mineral companies or 
            aboriginal tribes. Applies to the American desert.
Velax     > I was musing about other possible locations.. the point I was 
            getting around to was that at sea seems to be the best possible 
            location for a generic new-edge colony at present. the only 
            other place I can imagine would be in a ghetto somewhere, or 
            maybe sibe
Jagwire X > Well, in orbit would be nice, but unlikely.  I certainly 
            wouldn't mind living in space.
Velax     > Siberia that is.. since the Russian government wants to develop 
            its eastern regions & wants foreign investment too, or 
            something like that well, I presume that the new edge will get 
            into orbit eventually, but the AUtopia timescale seems to be 
            more like late 90's early 21st century.
Jagwire X > Somehow I don't think they would want us there.  Yeah, the 
            ocean is the most likely candidate.
Velax     > All this relates back to what you said about, even if AUtopia 
            doesn't come to fruition anything that gets thrashed out here 
            can still help future enterprises like this..
Velax     > The point is that if it's ever going to happen at all, 
            anywhere, it looks as though it will have to start at sea.
Jagwire X > Yeop.
Velax     > So even the specifically "nautical" considerations that will be 
            discussed on AUtopia will be of future relevance, not just the 
            generic contemplation of new-edge autonomous communities.
Velax     > [does that make sense?]
Jagwire X > Yeah, I think so.  Like even for non New Edge ocean 
            colonization.
Velax     > Another thing that has occured to me. on leri-l someone talked 
            once about setting up a bot on irc channel #leri and automating 
            a process whereby all conversation on the channel would get 
            sent to the mailing list. maybe you could do that with AUtopia 
            too. [concerning non New Edge ocean col.] yes, that too. do you 
            know how often people visit #AUtopia?
Jagwire X > Nope.  I have no idea.  I am often not around as I am still 
            await the full INTERnet connection at my base of operations.
Velax     > Is that wixer.cactus.org?
Jagwire X > Yeah.  That's the place.  Home of AUtopia, Scream Baby and
            FringeWare.
Velax     > Yeah, I'm very curious about it. does you or Blade X or Paco 
            work for wixer or cactus or whatever organization this is?
Jagwire X > Blade X, Pacoid and I are the big three freaks there.  No none 
            of us do.  It's run by George Wenzel and frankly I don't know 
            much about it. 'Better, Faster and Cheaper' is their motto (I 
            think), but don't quote me on that.
Velax     > heh, ok
Velax     > I remember on fut-cult a while back there was a discussion 
            about which city is more cyberpunkish or new-edgey, and I 
            remember someone saying that Austin was one of the best places 
            to be, to be connected to the techno-underground
Jagwire X > Yeah, it definitely is.  The amount of New Edge per capita has 
            got to be higher than anywhere else.  Plus there's a whole lot 
            of high-tech industry here.  The University of Texas, more 
            BBS's than you can shake a stick at.  Members of the Legion of 
            Doom.  A local chapter of EFF.  Plenty of Raves (if your into
            that).  Tons of live music.  etc. etc. etc.
Velax     > So you have high-tech industry [computers? genetics? 
            aerospace?] connected to utexas, plus drugs, raves, mind 
            machines, hackers..
Jagwire X > Plus it's has some of the strictest environmental initiatives 
            in the US, clean air, and it's a sprawl even (size wise if not 
            population). High-tech industry includes all that you 
            mentioned.
Velax     > how organized is the techno-undeground, do you think? I guess 
            this relates to what you were saying before, about the lack of 
            overarching visions. it seems to me that the most organized 
            people would be groups like LOD. at the level of the new edge 
            as a whole, there's no organization, there's only zines and 
            other info outlets like the mailing lists which provide an
            overview of what exists,. but don't actually coordinate 
            anything.
Jagwire X > How organized.  Here it seems to be more organized than most 
            places.  EFF-Austin is a contributor to that.
Velax     > Isn't the EFF basically a civil rights watchdog? officially? I 
            mean, I imagine that at CyberDawg get-togethers, or whatever 
            they're called, people might talk about all sorts of other 
            things, but I'm sure the EFF charter [eg] doesn't say 'we're 
            here to put the nootropics researchers, in touch with the 
            computer underground, in touch with..'
Jagwire X > Yeah, that's right.  The CyberDawgs present an opportunity for 
            the people to meet face2face. What they do after that is up to 
            them.
Velax     > hmm. on the topic of the eff, while you were gone I started 
            checking my email and there's a whole heap of messages with 
            subject lines like 'the EFF is over' and 'shakeup at the eff'. 
            do you know what this is about.
Jagwire X > Not really.  There was a post about EFF National's changes.  
            The rest was all just opinions and hype. Apparently some people 
            are not pleased with what they are doing.  Me I don't have much 
            of an opinion about it.
Velax     > Well, just viewing one long message, which I think is the post 
            about the national changes, it says something about not forming 
            local chapters. where would that leave EFF-Austin, any idea?
Jagwire X > Well, EFF-Austin is an incorporated entity unto itself.  It is 
            not actually a subdivision of EFF-National.
Velax     > okay, so this would really appear to be just an organizational 
            change, not a change of goals or anything. however, to relate 
            this back to what I was saying before, the EFF is an 
            organization which concentrates on the future of 
            the net, or cyberspace, & in particular on civil liberties in 
            cyberspace. That's only part of the new edge. for example,
            nanotech, nootropics & other forms of R&D on the one hand, & 
            raves, mudding & other on-line _culture_ on the other, are part 
            of it too. what I was trying to get at is that there is nothing 
            concerned with the whole new edge, as far as I can see, apart 
            from zines like Mondo 2000 etc.
Jagwire X > Yes.  That's right.  As far as I know it does not promote any 
            of the other aspects of the New Edge.  Yeah, in the sense that 
            any magazine is a discussion of a  subject. I would say that 
            M2k and bOING-bOING do quite a good  job of blending various 
            aspects together.
Velax     > And they are more reporting on the scene rather than trying to 
            involve it all in some common enterprise, as AUtopia would.
            So there would seem to be a need for 2 things, that I can think 
            of: i] a group with an "EFF-like" approach to the whole issue 
            of technoculture, and ii] trying to create the space - a "TAZ" 
            - where new edge activities can be pursued. this is where 
            AUtopia fits in, I guess.
Jagwire X > You got it.
Velax     > I've never seen bOING bOING here in oz, unfortunately
Jagwire X > I am probably going to have to go for good RSN.
Velax     > Yeah, I guess it might be about time. it must be about midnight 
            there by now?
Jagwire X > No, 8:30 pm.  I just have some stuff I have to do b4 it get's 
            late. I've enjoyed it and thanks for the opportunity!
Velax     > Yes, its bee fun & quite interesting.  Maybe someday I'll be 
            able to interview you at jagwire@autopia.com
Jagwire X > Heh. Hopefully!  Feel free to e-mail me if you have any further
            questions.  BCNUL8R
Velax     > Sure. well, I'll probably see you on future culture, AUtopia or 
            leri, anyhow.  Ok, see you..

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