HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kahn@troi.cc.rochester.edu (James Kahn)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: the challenge of mozart,
Date: 11 Dec 92 20:41:44 GMT
Organization: University of Rochester - Rochester, New York

In <1992Dec9.4216.24947@dosgate> alexander.inglis@canrem.com (alexander inglis) writes:
>...job much of the time but the concertos tend to blur together under their
>hands in my mind. Kempff with Leitner in the No 23 and 24, from about
>1960, are marvelous (mid price DGG 423 885): desert island stuff! Gulda
>and Abbado did a few in the late 70s; the critics weren't impressed but
>I was!

>Alexander Inglis  |  InterNet: alexander.inglis@canrem.com
>Toronto,  Canada  |  CompuServe: 70307,20     BIX: ainglis

I always liked the Robert Casadesus recordings, especially No. 21, including
his wonderful cadenzas.  I don't know whether and in what form they are
still available.

Jim Kahn
University of Rochester
From: ray.horton@tfd.gwinnett.com (Ray Horton) 
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Herrmann (was Dvorak'
Date: 15 Dec 92 10:33:00 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Fifth Dimension - Louisville, KY - 502-423-8654
Reply-To: ray.horton@tfd.gwinnett.com (Ray Horton) 

DB>Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
DB>From: dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker)
DB>Subject: Re: Herrmann (was Dvorak's New World...)
DB>Message-ID: <1992Dec14.175207.6539@spang.Camosun.BC.CA>
DB>Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 17:52:07 GMT

DB> I thought he filched it from Bernar Herrman's theme to Psycho, which
: > was - as BH admitted - nicked from Stravinsky.
: >
MQ>: Where did Herrmann admit this? I've never seen any such quote. 

DB>Jeeez Mike, I dunno! I'm casting my mind back to things I read/heard
DB>over 20 years ago. It sure sounds influenced by Stravinsky to me.

Definitely, but surely you must agree that "influenced by" and "filched 
from" are two different things! 

It's a great score (Psycho, that is, not Jaws!) and is as original as 
any I've heard.  One of my other favorite Herrmann scores, in a 
completely different vein, is "The Ghost and Mrs Muir" - it shows us 
why God invented tha contra-bass clarinet!
---
 . DeLuxe. 1.25 #12024 . I'm here to question all your answers.
                     
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: apter@fid.morgan.com (Steve Apter)
Subject: Re: For piano transcription fans
Organization: Morgan Stanley & Co., New York, NY
Distribution: rec
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 21:45:53 GMT


Recorded in 1989, released in 1990, this one just showed up
in my area:

	Liszt
	A Faust Symphony (arr. two pianos)
	Thomas Hitzlberger, Georg Schutz
	cpo 999 056-2

Another recent issue from Contrapunkt is a two-piano
arrangement of Brahms' Symphony 1.  Sorry, no further
information.



Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: tait@cs.columbia.edu (Carl Tait)
Subject: Re: Schirmer, Chopin, Mikuli, and Horowitz...
Organization: Columbia University Department of Computer Science
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 00:51:18 GMT

In article <1992Dec17.160643.23906@Princeton.EDU>
roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig) writes:
>>
>>[My comments re Paderewski's edition of Chopin]
>
>And its problems are legion, I'm afraid.  Do *not* trust this edition;
>much research has been done since then.  Hold out for one of the more
>recent ones.  (Info courtesy of Prof. Jeff Kallberg @ Penn, who taught
>me all I know -- see this thimble? -- about the problems of Chopin
>editing.)  There are better editions appearing nowadays; I'll get back
>with infor about them.

I'll look forward to it.  I think it has always bothered pianists (and
musicologists, too!) that there's no really ideal edition of Chopin.
Particularly in older editions, editorial sloppiness and arrogance were
problems, but one basic difficulty won't go away no matter how much
care is taken: the often substantial disagreements between the primary
sources.  What do you do when the MS and the first French, German, and
English editions all have something different?

As I said, I do prefer Paderewski to Henle -- though maybe I shouldn't.
But too many times I've seen Henle adopt some wacko variant that no
one has ever played and (one would hope) no one ever will.  This is
true of Henle in general, not just their Chopin.  Paderewski and his
staff sometimes take liberties they shouldn't, but they (usually)
confess their transgressions in the notes.  A minor point: Henle's
fingering -- especially that of Hans-Martin Theopold -- is often
execrable, but at least this can be ignored.

I think that Jane Stirling's scores, which were annotated by Chopin,
have finally been made generally available to musicologists.  Eigeldinger,
at least, has seen them and written about them.  However, even with the
scores of Stirling and other Chopin pupils, it's unlikely that the
conflicts will be completely ironed out -- hell, the scores probably
introduce lots of NEW problems.  Still, I'll be first in line at
Patelson's to buy the "next generation" critical edition of Chopin.

Carl Tait
From: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Debussy, Shostakovich, and... ?
Date: 16 Dec 92 18:20:28 GMT
Reply-To: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Distribution: rec
Organization: COMANDOS Project, Glesga Yoonie


doom@elaine36.Stanford.EDU (Joseph Brenner) wrote:
> I like Debussy, I like Shostakovich, what else would you
> predict that I'd like?  What are their influences?  

Influences *on* Debussy: Wagner, Liszt, Chopin and (for the late sonatas)
Lully and Couperin.  But he transformed these so much you might not find
them very recognizable.

Influences *of* Debussy: an awful lot, but you might start with Bartok's
middle-period stuff (like the Out of Doors piano suite or the Third String
Quartet), Schoenberg's Five Orchestral Pieces, and almost anything by
Messiaen.

Influences *on* Shostakovich: Mahler, mainly.  If you like one you should
go for the other.

Influences *of* Shostakovich: Alfred Schnittke, sort of (though Schnittke
rarely produces statements as simple as early-to-middle Shostakovich was
given to - on the other hand, if you like the creepily ambiguous *late*
Shostakovich of the 15th symphony and the viola sonata you should like much
of Schnittke).  Giya Kancheli, for the grandly epic style.

-- 
--  Jack Campin    room G092, Computing Science Department, Glasgow University,
17 Lilybank Gardens, Glasgow G12 8RZ, Scotland   TEL: 041 339 8855 x6854 (work)
INTERNET: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk or via nsfnet-relay.ac.uk    FAX: 041 330 4913
BANG!net: via mcsun and uknet     BITNET: via UKACRL    UUCP: jack@glasgow.uucp
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: "alexander inglis" <alexander.inglis@canrem.com>
Subject: why no amplified solos?
Reply-To: "alexander inglis" <alexander.inglis@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: rec
Date: 17 Dec 92 17:27:01 EST

PMU>First, let me make it clear that I am not trying to be a smart-ass rock-hea
   >who doesn't understand the concept or the innate beauty of accoutic recordi

PMU>With that said, here is my question:

PMU>"Why do you never hear concerts of symphonic works performed on 'electric'
   >instruments?"

That's easy: because there isn't any repertoire for the players to play.

But, shhhh! Someone might overhear you! R Murray Schaefer, are you
listening?

Actually, you'd be surprised just what the avant garde wing of the
classical field will come up with in more experimental settings such as
New Music Concerts. It will be awhile before this stuff hits the
mainstream though. And I don't mean next Tuesday either! :-)

Alexander Inglis  |  InterNet: alexander.inglis@canrem.com
Toronto,  Canada  |  CompuServe: 70307,20     BIX: ainglis
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: velde2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Francois Velde)
Subject: Re: Requia
Organization: HAC - Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 13:19:40 GMT

In article <1992Dec16.044752.24043@midway.uchicago.edu> gustavo@dent.uchicago.edu (Gustavo Comezana) writes:
>In article <1992Dec14.184034.8975@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> velde2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Francois Velde) writes:
>>In article <CB.92Dec14105132@tamarack13.timbuk> cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster) writes:
>>
>>A French humorist used to make fun of such pedantry by suggesting 
>>that the plural of "autobus" (or bus in English) should be autobi.
>>
>>Follow-ups to comp.language.latin and alt.fan.cicero
>
>Sorry, but my site doesn't carry alt.fan.cicero. However, you may be
>interested to know that your wise-ass humorist was simply making a
>fool of himself by displaying his total ignorance. Autobus a word of
>rather strange pedigree, deriving as it does from the Latin "omnibus"
>(which is a form that has survived in several dialectal forms of
>Spanish) and the Greek root "auto" (which means, roughly, "self", but
>in this context, is merely the first half of "automobile", another
>bizarre hybrid).  Anyway, "omnibus" (which means "for everybody",
>conveying the significance of the term in the sense of "public
>transportation" quite accurately) is already in plural, being the
>ablative plural of "omnes". In any case, it is easy to see that
>whoever first introduced the term "autobus" was far from a language
>purist...
>
>Sorry about the pedantry, but I couldn't resist :-).

I would forward your observations to Raymond Queneau (the above-mentioned
humorist), but for two facts: 1) he is dead, 2) he definitely knew
the etymology of autobus.  In fact, his remark was funny only because
it was nonsensical, for the reasons you painstakingly laid out. 
Likewise, Chris Brewster's proposed plural for kleenex is funny only
because it is nonsensical.  But thank you for your earnestness.

I would also suggest caution in calling people wise asses, and in
discussing the way people make fools of themselves.

-- 

	Francois Velde
From: ceb@dbrus.Unify.Com (Caroline E. Bryan)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Xmas CD
Date: 17 Dec 92 19:47:55 GMT
Organization: /usr/lib/news/organization

In article <1992Dec14.170749.2497@mumbo.apple.com> Mark Preece <mark@cambridge.apple.com> writes:
>In article <1992Dec11.174004.16257@tc.fluke.COM> Norm Strong,
>strong@tc.fluke.COM writes:
>>It's time for my annual Xmas CD, and I'm looking for recommendations.
>>
>>It should be for chorus, with or without accompaniment, and have lots of
>>rarely heard music.  I don't want another CD with the usual English
>>stuff.  

Last year, or I should say this past spring, I got (with difficulty) Berlioz's
L'Enfance du Christ (apologies for mangling the French).  This is a choral
and orchestral work with some moments of amazing beauty in it, particularly
the "Hymn of the Angels".  It's a double CD.  Now that it's been out for a
while, it may be easier to find.  NOT the usual English stuff.


Carrie		ceb@rechenau.unify.com	x6244
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|"To every hard problem, there's a simple solution, and it's wrong." - Turski |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: apter@fid.morgan.com (Steve Apter)
Subject: Re: Wagner and Jews?
Organization: Morgan Stanley & Co., New York, NY
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 19:33:51 GMT

In article <1992Dec15.042349.21804@Princeton.EDU> roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig) writes:
>In article <johnr.724371540@pongo.kowari.cpsg.com.au> johnr@bohra.cpg.oz.au (John Reid) writes:
>
>>Richard Strauss is another matter; I've long understood that he was a
>>paid-up member of the Nazi party.
>
>Don't be too sure.  Strauss' relationship with the Nazis was very complex.
>Sometimes expedient, sometimes strained.  He was forced out of his job as 
>figurehead leader of German music when he insisted on continuing to work
>with Stefan Zweig.  He wrote pieces that celebrated the state, butb also
>withdrew himself from public life.
>
>Strauss is hard to read in this matter.  I doubt, though, that he joined 
>the Nazi party out of conviction, or at a particularly early date.  He
>simply wasn't interested in that sort of thing.

I believe there was a social connection between Strauss' wife and either 
Goering or Goebbels.  And she was one hell of a nag.  I'd look in that
direction for an explanation of Strauss' half-hearted political activity.

>
>Roger
>
>
>



Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: It's called "Deploration sur la morte d'Ockeghem"
Originator: news@nimaster
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 23:45:13 GMT

In article <RckqVB1w165w@student.business.uwo.ca> r4smith@student.business.uwo.ca (Richard Smith) writes:
>It's called "Deploration sur la morte d'Ockeghem" and is famous for its 
>staggeringly low bass voice.
>
It is?  "Absalon, fili mi" is certainly known for its low Bb, as is the
LaRue Requiem (Gamma clef!); but the voice with the odd range in "Nymphes
des bois" (the Deploration) is the tenor, which sings its last line
("Requiescat in pace. Amen." very high.  (In the Medici Codex version;
the later versions, which are the source used in the old Complete Edn.,
have it lower, which leads to some harmonic problems.)

Other oddities: the tenor, which *does* sing the Introitus text (Requiem
aeternam...), is notated a half-step off the pitches to be sung.  And the
notation is all in black, for symbolic reasons.

Roger
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: shire@dorsai.com (Kenneth Shire)
Subject: Re: Various _Goetterdaemmerung_s 
Keywords: Janowski, Karajan, Solti
Organization: The Dorsai Embassy, New York's Computer Consulate. +1.718.729.5018
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 14:19:43 GMT

About the Berlin RING directed by Gotz Friedrich:  I've seen pictures and 
spoken to both audience members and one of the leading singers of the 
Friedrich Covent Garden RING.  The concensus was  that it was about 
little more than its costumes, futuristic make-ups and over-complicated 
stage machinery.  Now I have admired Friedrich's work on the Elektra film 
with Rysanek, his brilliant Salome film with Stratas (!) and his Bayreuth 
Tannhauser (again, on film).  So I am hungry for more descriptions of 
what he has come up with at Berlin.  BTW, "his" idea of the incestuous 
relationship amongst the Gibichungs has been around at least as far back 
as the 1970s where it was done at the Met.  When I spoke to the singer 
involved, I was told the idea was obvious and often used in Europe, thoug 
no specifics were given.  But if Friedrich was able to make in an 
integral part of his grand design, more power to him.  Everyone steals, 
the idea is to steal well and add something new.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: jwa@vipunen.hut.fi (Jyrki J Wahlstedt)
Subject: Re: The BEST finale!
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: 18 Dec 92 01:18:20

In article <1gnii7INNibh@master.cs.rose-hulman.edu> stinerkt@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (Kevin T Stiner) writes:

>I just listened to Brahm's Symphony #1 over and over and over...  The  
>final movement is possibly the BEST ending to a classical piece I have  
>ever heard!  That sparked me to ask this question to find out what else I  
>should listen to to hear some amazing endings:

>What is YOUR favorite ending or finale to a classical piece?

  There is no such one thing. I have several of them:
  St. Matthew Passion
  Bruckner's Ninth
  Mahler's Ninth
  Aho's Seventh
    (he is not too well known abroad, but this movement is really
    beautiful. I know the composer personally and he told me that
    when this symphony was recorded, one of the recording engineers
    wept during this last movement.)
  Sibelius' Violin concerto
  Strauss' Metamorphosen (one *grand* finale)
  Bach's B minor mass


  PS. I have an extra CD with the symphonies 5 and 7 of Kalevi Aho. Would
  anyone of the readers of this newsgroup like to do an exchange with me,
  I'd send this CD to that person and might some day receive one.
  Suggestions by e-mail, please.
  The CD is by Ondine, ODE 765-2, the orchestra is Leipzig Radio Symphony
  Orchestra under Max Pommer. And this CD has the composer's autograph.

  PS2. I think that St. Matthew Passion has a truly effective opening
  movement, too (just listening to it). Does someone agree with me?
--
!
!	Jyrki Wahlstedt
!		Jyrki.Wahlstedt@hut.fi
!
!  Our life is no dream, but it should and will perhaps become one.
!
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Reply to Greatest Living Pianist
From: Marco Simionato <simion@iveuncc.unive.it>
Date: 16 Dec 92 15:30:20 +0100
Distribution: world
Organization: University of Venezia (Italy)
X-UserAgent: Nuntius v1.1.1d9X-XXMessage-ID: <A754FC6EBD030134@quadra.cicsd.unive.it>X-XXDate: Wed, 16 Dec 92 15:31:58 GMTLines: 6

Sometime ago someone on this thread named Martha Argerich as the
greatest living pianist. Come on, don't you think you went too far?
I think this cannot be true in any respect, though admitting that
Argerich is a great pianist. Names? Never heard of Richter and
Michelangeli? And even on a slightly lower level you would have
Pollini, Brendel, and Perahia.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: bjh42543@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Brian J. Haag)
Subject: Re: Greatest living conductors
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 19:37:47 GMT

fernande@cps.msu.edu (Jose Roberto Fernandez) writes:

>Inspired by the recent thread about greatest living pianists, I
>propose another thread on the "greatest living conductors."  So,
>who do you think are the greatest living (or recently died) 
>conductors?  I nominate the following for the top tier:

>*Karajan, Solti, Giulini, and *Bernstein
>(additional possibilities being Abbado, Haitink, and Maazel)
>(*-died recently)

Giulini is good, but I really don't think that he belongs in the same category
with the other three that you mentioned.  Also, I would nominate the fast-
rising Simon Rattle for the second tier along with Giulini.

>-- 
>Jose Roberto Fernandez
>fernande@cps.msu.edu
>Computer Science
>Mich. St. Univ.

-- 
______________________________________________________________________________
Brian J. Haag                                    Senior, Department of Finance
bjh42543@uiuc.edu                                       University of Illinois 
       "Remember:  No matter where you go, there you are." -- Anonymous
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: torenvl@ecf.toronto.edu (TORENVLIET GERARD LAWRENS)
Subject: Re: **QUICK SINEAD SURVEY PLEASE ANSWER**
Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 03:07:17 GMT

In article <BzF12y.9zH@news.cso.uiuc.edu> erwin@helsinki.ks.uiuc.edu (Edgar Erwin) writes:
>Probably not, but I've heard rumors that she is planning to drop her pop carrer  
>and train as an opera singer.  This tidbit, which I read in the NYT, may just  
>be a rumor, and may even have been intended as a joke, although there was no  
>``;-)''.  But if true, it is valid to discuss her here.

Oooooh!  Wouldn't it be enthralling to see her sing next to Cecilia Bartoli...
:-)!

Regards,
Gerard

_____________________________________________________________________
Gerard Torenvliet                 |
Engineering Computing Facility    |  "Le coeur a ses raisons dont
University of Toronto             |   le cerveau ne sait nul."
                                  |
torenvl@ecf.toronto.edu           |                  -Blaise Pascal
(416)221-5949                     |
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: wagner and jews?
Date: 16 Dec 92 18:00:24 GMT
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Distribution: rec
Organization: Princeton University
Originator: news@nimaster

In article <1992Dec16.4216.25527@dosgate> "alexander inglis" <alexander.inglis@canrem.com> writes:
>JR>Richard Strauss is another matter; I've long understood that he was a
>  >paid-up member of the Nazi party.

>You could be right re: R Strauss's genuine Nazi leanings. 

But he's not, according to all available evidence.  Strauss *was*
easily flattered, and *did* work with and for the powers that were,
and even wrote a few pieces of an occasional nature.  But we have
no shred of evidence that he held any of the view of the Nazis, or 
for that matter, any political views.

>But let's not
>forget he turned 80 in 1944 (in fact there is an 80th birthday
>celebration performance of Ariadne auf Naxos conducted by Karl Boehm
>that has been on DGG from time to time). I'm not sure how may people of
>his age would not be willing to turn a blind eye to the politics of the
>day and be able to deny to themselves that horrors were occurring.

Strauss was evidently fairly good at it.  

>I remain baffled how ANYONE can continue to exist in places such as a
>war zone -- but people do. Why would anyone continue to live in Beirut,
>for example? Add Strauss's prestige and pampering by local officials and
>it must have been very difficult to find a way out.

Well, it wasn't a war zone where he was living until very late in
the game.  Too late to do anything, that's for sure.  The problem is that
people don't do what they can to prevent things from *becoming* a 
war zone.

Roger
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: 910773f@axe.acadiau.ca (HEATHER LEE FYFFE)
Subject: Re: The BEST finale!
Organization: Acadia University
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 21:21:57 GMT

In article <1gnii7INNibh@master.cs.rose-hulman.edu> stinerkt@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (Kevin T Stiner) writes:
>
>What is YOUR favorite ending or finale to a classical piece?
>
Well, at the moment it's the end of the 2nd  (slow) mvt of Beethoven's piano 
sonata op.10 no3 in Dmaj.   That mvt's in dmin and ends with a very bare, 
slow, c#-d (just those notes, no chords), then a bar rest, then c#-d up a 
couple octaves, then a bar rest, then d-d down in the low register.  After a 
long, slow, thick, heavy, depressing mvt, it is EXTREMELY effective.

Buzzard
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: abrocke1@cc.swarthmore.edu (Aaron Brockett)
Subject: Re: Theoretical developments in recent concert music
Organization: Swarthmore College
Distribution: worldwide
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 06:07:14 GMT

In article <1gdfaqINNadn@mozz.unh.edu>, dvf@kepler.unh.edu (David V
Feldman) writes:
> 
> In the opinions of readers of this group, what pieces of music
> composed recently represent the most important theoretical 
> developments in compositional technique.
> 
> By recently I mean, so within the last five or ten years.
> 
> I am not here concerned in anyway with whether the music is good or
> bad, beautiful or ugly, but simply with innovations in melody, harmony,
> rhythm, timbre, form, tuning, theatre, spacial location, integration
> of new technology, etc. whose significance is potentially wider than
> the individual piece where they are instantiated.  I am especially
> interested to hear about the work of younger or lesser known composers
> whose work I am unlikely to know from recordings or broadcast.
> 
> David Feldman
> 
> P.S.  I posted this first to rec.music.compose and got a handful of
> responses of varying interest, but none that spoke directly to my
> question.

I'm afraid that I'm certainly not qualified to answer your question, but
like the people on rec.music.compose, I'll offer a related bit of
information.

Thea Musgrave, a Scottish-turned-American composer, wrote a horn concerto
(written possibly as much as 20 years ago; I'm really not sure) for Barry
Tuckwell. Although he asked for no horns in the orchestra, she scored six.
In the last movement, two are in the orchestra and the other four are in
the concert hall, at the four corners of the audience; they duel with the
soloist in a delightful way. Mark that as a minor orchestrational oddity.

--Aaron Brockett