From: steele@aem.umn.edu (Stephanie Steele)
Subject: Re: Anglocentricism in rec.arts.poems /Marek (Re: Urdu Knowledge...)
Organization: University of Minnesota
Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1992 18:08:25 GMT

marek@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Marek Lugowski) writes:

>In article <steele.722281683@chip.aem.umn.edu> steele@aem.umn.edu (Stephanie Steele) writes:
>>mcoffin@IASTATE.EDU (Marie Coffin) writes:
>>
>>>In article <1992Nov19.175925.14938@zip.eecs.umich.edu>,
>>>bhattach@quip.eecs.umich.edu (sayan bhattacharyya) writes:
>>>> 
(much deleted, mostly because marek wasn't interested in the orginal
discussion and has created a new one :) :) :) :) :)

marie says-

>>>	(b) You are correct that there is not much discussion on r.a.p. about
>>>	    poetry of Third World cultures.  That is not because we don't like 
>>>	    it, it's because we don't know anything about it.  Please feel free
>>>	    to post more information, and especially more poetry, from the
>>>	    Third World culture of your choice.   Of course, this has nothing
>>>	    to do with Urdu, which, as we have all been told, is not a culture.

marek says-

>Hey, Marie, curb your tongue.  Such irony...  you might curdle the growing
>Urdu culture on rap.  Just because Ali doesn't think the literary language
>of the Indian subcontinent forms a culture should not distress us.  He is
>not an armchair anthropologist, after all...

and my orginal concern with marie's statement above dealt with marie
asking for knowledge to come to her. i argue that we pursue knowledge,
and especially in the case of languages/cultures forced to the margins
of the status quo, or dominant culture.

>>>It all comes down to this:  we can only talk about what we know about.
>>>If you have specialized knowledge of poetry, please share it.

>Agreed.  Anyone with any knowledge, and many without any, should share it,
>or publically air it...

yes, but *knowledge* is not a bag of popcorn that we pass around- 'here
ya want some?' knowledge is a 'verb' (i know it's really a noun) but
the idea is that knowlege is not a passive object, rather an activity
which requires movement, interaction, and usually a bit of wrestling
around.


>>needed their own 'place' to work (i don't ever recall any big debates
>>when i was in school on whether or not there should be a Black Student
>>Alliance or the Hillel Club or the Latin Club or MEChA- monimiento
>>estudiantil chicano de aztlan.)

>Yes, but I know of no campus where Polish Young Republicans have
>incorporated, or, for that matter, a Hillel Club for Urdu Speakers
>has taken hold.  Your analogy, Stephanie.

so, marek your desire is to have *all* poetry posted under the
rubric of rec.arts.poems. but the urdu group seems to be saying
that their interests require a more specialized approach and
organization. if a group of polish republicans decided that
they needed to form an autonomous republican club because their
republican agenda and goals could or were not being met in the
young republican club- more power to them.

>Many people on the net voted against rapu because they are against its
>placement in the net.hierarchy.  (This includes several experienced net
>administrators who do not appear to post here.)  It sets a bad precedent,
>as it surely will become a general forum for talking in Urdu about all
>things Urdu, and the charter makes little attempt to hide that.  It's so
>like you, Stephanie, to have a definite opinion on something, state it,
>and add that, of course, you couldn't have been bothered to follow the
>process/disussion/vote.  I believe this smashes your credibility to bits.

marek, i wish i had my logic book handy so i could give the proper
name for this gross leap of logic. yes, i definitely have definite
opinions, yes, i certainly (usually) state them. i never, though,
claimed that 'i couldn't be bothered to follow' the urdu discussion.
i was off the net for a couple of weeks, and as i clearly stated, only
caught the tail end of the discussion. this  in no way 'smashes
my credibility to bits.' please marek, refute my ideas if you disagree
with them- stick to my argument and don't look to some deus ex machina
to come and save your day for you- it takes all the fun out of arguing.

>ignored my offer.  Furthermore, I have no plans to help Urdu poetry become
>segregated into a rapu ghetto.  I too will get into it if only to learn
>more.

glad to hear it.


>>Now that the urdu group is available

>...not quite.  recount in progress.

>>it seems that everybody should benefit. the >urduers are in a space in
>>which they feel empowered to argue and discuss urdu ideas/poetry, and >all
>of us lucky rappers have a great place to go now in order to learn >from
>them. i mean, if we have the choice, and we want to really get >to *know* a
>dish of palak paneer, do we go over to Diwana Indian >restaraunt in Temple
>City, Ca (right next to the McDonald's on Las >Tunas Blvd, across the
>street from the Kentucky Fried Chicken) or >do we go to some nice little
>dive in Kadiri, Andhra Pradesh?  > >steph..

>We make our own.  It's very easy.  Works well *even* with frozen chopped
>spinach and canned Rogan Josh sauce.  And by the way, would you be more
>specific with directions to the dive in Kadiri, Andhra Pradesh?  Seems like
>you don't know as much about that dive as about the McDonalds on Las Tunas
>Blvd as you let on.

whip up a plate of your own knowledge, marek? some of us, if we have the
choice, prefer to go straight to the source.

did i lead you to believe that i know more about the dive in Kadiri?
no, i don't think i could've, since i obviously am more familiar
with Diwana, i'm sorry you missed out on the analogy and got all
caught up in directions. but when the urdu group gets going, i'm sure
somebody over there can give you directions to some nice little dive
in Kadiri- which was the whole point in the first place.

steph.

>				-- Marek

>P.s.  Indian food in India isn't always as good as Indian food in the U.S.
>Not having eaten at Diwana, I can only recommend Chicago's, Dallas'
>Boston's and New Hampshire's (even!) Indian and Pakistani restaurants.
>I am sure that you would find a palak panir to your liking in many a place.

-indeed, i have marek, but the orginal analogy asked if we had the choice,
and wanted to get to *know* a dish of palak paneer, not simply 'make'
one or 'eat' one, which place would we chose, and i would chose the
Kadiri place, so when you get directions out of rapu, please give me
a call. i hope you don't mind vegetarian.

sls
--

=======================================================================
			   Stephanie Steele
			steele@chip.aem.umn.edu