From: kane@buast7.bu.edu (Hot Young Star)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,ca.politics,ba.politics
Subject: Re: Myths about Promiscuity
Date: 11 Oct 92 19:47:03 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.misc
Organization: Astronomy Department, Boston University, Boston, MA, USA

In article <12698@optilink.UUCP> cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:

>In article <98045@bu.edu>, kane@buast7.bu.edu (Hot Young Star) writes:

CC:[Masters, Johnson, & Kolodny's chart deleted for brevity]
># #Read this chart carefully. More than half of the white male
># #homosexuals had 250 or more lifetime homosexual partners, as did
># #44% of the black male homosexuals. 

># For the total numbers (which I've added), the weighted mean number
># of lifetime partners is 452.

># #Just like the rest of us?
># #How many heterosexuals do you know that have 250 different
># #sexual partners in one lifetime?  How many do you know with 1000
># #or more?

># To find an answer, look at Masters, Johnson, and Kolodny "CRISIS:
># Heterosexual Behavior in the Age of AIDS", 1988.
># 
># pp 8-9: The authors surveyed 800 heterosexual adults with no homosexual
>#         experience for the years 1977 through 1986. Of the 800, 400 are
>#         monogamous (200 male, 200 female), and 400 (200 male, 200 female)
>#         reported more than one sexual partner.
># 
># 	"The average annual number of sex partners in the non-monogamous
># 	 group was 11.5 for women and 9.8 for men."

>But you've now examined ONLY the non-monogamous group, and left out
>the monogamous group.  What's the average for heterosexuals?  You
>haven't told us enough to know.

Neither did Masters, Johnson, and Kolodny. They merely DEFINED the married
couples as monogamous, and therefore having only 1 sexual partner.

># Over the 9 years of this study, which is certainly less than a
># "lifetime", then the men averaged 90 partners, the women, 100.
># If we consider an average lifetime sexually active period to be 50
># years, then the men have an average number of partners around 500.

>This assumes that the non-monogamous heterosexuals remain non-
>monogamous, and at the same level of activity, for 50 years.
>In fact, lots of non-monogamous heterosexuals grow up and become
>monogamous.

Or rather, "grow up", get married, remain monogamous for while, and then
revert to their old practices. If marriage is such a stable institution,
then why have 49% of those married in 1989 gotten divorced within the last
three years? Sexual infidelity and spousal abuse are the top two reasons
for divorce from heterosexual marriage.

># This is comparable to the 452 lifetime partners for gay men.
># (Sorry, I coudn't find the number of years counted in the homosexual
># survey)

># Another survey by Masters, Johnson, and Kolodny, reported on p. 125 of
># the same book, allows derivation of the average annual number of sexual
># partners for 200 homosexual men living in the northeast, as 22. This gives
># some indication of how homosexual men compare to non-married heterosexual
># men, who have an average of 10 partners per year.

>Why not compare to all heterosexual men?  Or would the numbers not look
>so good?

First of all, I made the best possible comparison. I compared unmarried,
single heterosexual males with unmarried, single homosexual males. The
time periods were roughly coeval, from the late '70's to the early-to-mid
'80's. The authors of the studies were the same (Masters, Johnson, & Kolodny),
thus giving a more consistent approach to methodology.

If you want to compare married heterosexual men with longtime-cohabitating
gay male partners, in a similar fashion, I'm afraid that can't be done just
yet.

Masters, Johnson, & Kolodny assumed that all of the married couples were
monogamous---an unsafe assumption.

For a study of male-male couples, I would recommend you read McWhirter et al
_The Male Couple_, for a good general overview of the relationship dynamics
between gay men. One salient point they make is that it is extremely foolish
to insist that the same things that stabilize heterosexual marriages will
do likewise for homosexual marriages.

># So the promiscuity rate is more comparable than first thought. Homosexuals
># appear to be approximately twice as promiscuous as straight men.

>Twice as promiscuous as non-monogamous straight men -- which are hardly
>the norm in our society.

Non-monogamous straight men are not the norm in the U.S.???

What's your source? Yourself?

Also, note that the figures were for 1977-1986, and for both heterosexuals
and homsexuals, the numbers are likely to be lower, especially for gay men,
given their advance knowledge of the risks of promiscuity with HIV around.

># This may have something to do with the relationship dynamic difference
># between women and men as opposed to men and other men, or it may be due
># to external social condemnation and its destabilizing effect on a
># relationship. (That according to my straight friend who is a sex therapist.)

>Or, the depraved nature of homosexuality.

Why do you have so much trouble believing that social condemnation may indeed
have something to do with relationship stability?

Oh, I forgot...you're the one who would prefer to delude himself by believing
that gay teens who attempt suicide do so not to escape what they think will be
a miserable life dealing with bigoted people, but because they were all abused
as children and have selectively forgotten these events.

This man has never heard of Occam's Razor.

Brian
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cramer@optilink.uucp (Clayton Cramer): Message-ID: <12133@optilink.UUCP>
I realize it's difficult for a person as depraved as [Brian Kane].
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
kane@{buast7,astro}.bu.edu (Hot Young Star) Astronomy Dept, Boston University,
Boston, MA 02215. True personal salvation is achieved by absolute faith in
ones true self.
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