HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: matwesx@gsusgi2.gsu.edu (William E. Sadler)
Subject: Re: Concealed carry - looking like a good idea
Organization: Georgia State University
Distribution: usa
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 02:05:56 GMT

schuette@roadkill.nrl.navy.mil (Larry Schuette) writes:

Larry, re your incident:

>a.  situational awareness is a must.
>b.  locked doors/windows up are a good idea.
>c.  leaving manouvering room is important.
A Glock by the seat would be nice.

>d.  Really glad I could manouver out of the situation.  Would have
>been another story on a different street.  
Simple comment, you should have maneuvered right over the top of 'em.

I had a similiar incident happen to me at the corner of piedmont and (I think
5th) street in Atlanta.  Guy opened my door, grabbed me by my shirt and pulled
me out of my car.  When I exited, I had my Beretta 92sc in my hand.  We had a 
short 2 second standoff, the fella turned white, (not his normal colour) and
left the AO at a high rate of speed.  Normally I wouldn't fight over something 
like that, let him have the beat up skylark.  But my wife was in the car, and I
wasn't about to let him drive off with her.

In such a situation, an armed response is Very appropriate.  If I lived in D.C.
I'd bloody well carry, on the theory that its better to be tried by 12 than 
carried by six.



-- 
/**************************************************************************/
/* William E. Sadler          |       Internet: matwesx@gsusgi2.gsu.edu   */
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Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman)
Subject: Re: I want my Coke
Reply-To: gary@ke4zv.UUCP (Gary Coffman)
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 10:30:42 GMT

In article <1992Nov6.30250.13950@ms.uky.edu> uk09365@nx12.mik.uky.edu (robert i kesten) writes:
>In article <wr_q-mp@dixie.com> jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond) writes:
>> From elsewhere on the net:
>> 
>> Here's what happened:  We relied on Associated Press for our national 
>> numbers. AP said it would send out third-party numbers starting at 
>> 10:30 p.m. They didn't. I have no idea why. 
>
>According to Bernie Shaw on CNN this was because
>many county clerks simply refused to count LP and other
>minor party votes in time for reporting on Election night.

Here in the "backward" South we use Voteomatics. The tallies are by
machine. You punch it, the machine counts it. I happen to know that
Kentucky uses voting machines. What states still use paper ballots
that have to be counted by hand?

Gary

Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: smpod@venus.lerc.nasa.gov (Stefan)
Subject: Re: NBC, CBS news reports
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: who knows
Distribution: usa
Date: 10 Nov 1992 10:27 EDT  

fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary) writes...
>vojak@icebucket.stortek.com (Bill Vojak) writes:
> ...
>>Better buy what you want BEFORE Dec 31.
> 
>Actually, I think before 3 November would have been better. I understand
>the prices on military-style semi-auto rifles started going up a
>month before the election, and I suspect the price of other non-hunting
>weapons are/will follow. 

AR-15s are still selling at a reasonable price.  They are now selling like
hotcakes.
From: ehorne@zeus.calpoly.edu (Eric T Horne)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Alternative RKBA Groups Needed
Date: 13 Nov 92 03:36:22 GMT
Organization: California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo

In article <1992Nov12.004225.15048@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com> paull@hplabsz.hpl.hp.com (Robert Paull) writes:
>
>
> What about the national organizations: GOA, CCRKBA, SAF.
>They are an alternative to the NRA.
>
>(Gun Owners of America)
>(Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and bear Arms)
>(Second Amendment Foundation)

Anybody have any addresses for the aforementioned action groups?

Thanks
-Eric

>
>
>RP- Member of all of them, including NRA.

I'll try!!
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: pes3@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Paul Eric Stoufflet)
Subject: Re: Damage Assessment after Comrade Clinton's victory?
Reply-To: pes3@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Paul Eric Stoufflet)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 04:42:11 GMT

In article <1992Nov5.041704.21413@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary) writes:
>I believe the count in the Senate is 57 Democrats and 43 Republicans.
>(58-42, if Boxer won.) At least one new Democrat is strongly pro-gun
>(Campbell, D-Co). I don't know if any Republican Senators are anti-gun.
                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>                                               Frank Crary
>                                               CU Boulder
>

Does the name John Chafee (R-RI) ring a bell?



  / \ / \     Paul Stoufflet                          / \ / \
 |  / \  |    Columbia Presbyterian Medical Center   |  / \  |
 |  \ /  |    internet: pes3@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu  |  \ /  |
  \_/_\_/     All opinions are my own                 \_/_\_/
From: sjo@cci632.cci.com (Steve Owens)
Subject: Re: Fundamentalist Nightmare
Organization: [Computer Consoles, Inc., Rochester, NY
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1992 17:00:14 GMT

In article <1992Nov2.220851.15487@newshub.ariel.yorku.ca> cs922058@ariel.yorku.ca (JEFFREY F HAY) writes:
>
>> Andy Freeman writes ...
>
>> Canada's gun related death statistics weren't affected by Canada's gun
>> control laws.  Many Americans share that "ban guns" religion, but it
>> isn't something to be proud of.
>
>First of all, per capita there are ten times as many gun deaths in the U.S.
>than in Canada!! Your contention that our gun related death statistics aren't affected by our gun control is total garbage. Lemme explain it for you...
>
>1) To kill someone with a bullet, you need a gun. Ok?

	No you don't.  A couple of pieces of heavy pipe and assorted
other materials can produce what's is called a zip gun.  Not a long
range weapon, but definitely useful in close encounters.

>2) To possess a gun you need to be able to get it somewhere. OK??

	Yep.  The local hardware store has almost everything you
need for a zip gun.

>3) Certain types of guns are more suited to killing people.
>   ie. handguns. The more bullets you can carry, the more people you can
>   kill. This one is pretty simple, eh!

	Then why don't we hear about more mass murders with firearms than
we do?

>4) GUNS ARE CONTROLLED IN CANADA!

	I'm sorry to hear you government doesn't feel it can trust its
law-abiding citizens to use a firearm responsibly without intervention.
Truly, this is a sad state of affairs.

>This means that it is not easy to get and use a gun in Canada. Furthermore, there
>are very very few people in Canada who have permission to own and/or carry handguns in Canada. Just as an estimate, probably much less than one tenth of a
>percent, excluding policemen.

	So what's your firearm homicide rate?  How many of these are
with legal guns?  How many of these are self-inflicted (accidents and/or
suicides)?

>
>In the city i live in guns are more common and so death by guns is more common.
>
>To recap ...
>
>No guns ... no kill with guns!!

	What wonderfully simple logic.  Too bad the real world doesn't
work that way.


							Steve


------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Read between the lines                             Steven J Owens @ CCI
 Criticize the words they're selling             (716) 482-5000 Ext 2867
 Think for yourself and feel the walls                 sjo@op632.cci.com
 Become sand beneath your feet." - Queensryche "Anybody Listening?"
From: J056600@LMSC5.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM
Subject: Re: I HATE to vote for Bush! But...
Organization: Lockheed Missiles & Space Company, Inc.
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 92 22:08:40 GMT

In <1992Nov5.150713.7511@wts.com>, Jens B. Fiederer writes:

>In article <1992Nov4.134740.15793@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> bobd@marune.acs.oh
>>
>>No what Frank is saying is that people who sit around and
>>vote the sewers choice end up with increasingly larger piles of
>>manure to deal with. People *did* endorse the *idea* of a third
>>party with as ~20% endorsement of Ross Perot. IMHO the LP problem
>>is that they are approaching things from the wrong end. They need
>>to win (the relatively inexpensive) local offices, then state
>>offices *before* they worry a lot about the presidency or US
>>Congress.

>Actually, although the Presidential race was disastrous for Libertarians,
>they did not do badly in the state and local races, gaining permanent
>ballot status in Pennsylvania for example.  In my county in NY, Marrou
>got only 712 votes, but Norma Segal who was running for the Senate got
>7343 votes (still only 2.6 %, but over 10x better than Marrou).  Althoug
>the Libertarian party did twice as well in the last election, they didn't
>have Perot to contend with -- people who could not accept either Bush or
>Clinton in this election had a third, well publicized choice.

Perot really hurt Andre Marrou.  Most Libertarians positively winced when they
heard that Perot was re-entering the race.  Every time there is economic
malaise from which the LP can gain support, someone (Anderson '80, Perot '92)
else always steps in to take the "none of the above" vote as an independent.

As you said, though, Libertarians did far better in state and local elections.
I still don't know if the woman running for the Nevada state Senate won her
race (she was ahead by 8% in early returns when I last heard), and here in the
San Jose area the local LP candidates consistently got between 4% and 9% of
the vote, with around 6% being the average.  I've heard of a few well-funded
LP candidates which got close to 20% around the country--even more than that
where the incumbent goes unopposed by the other major party.

California Senate candidate June Genis looked as though she would get a large
vote--some indicated over 5% until about two weeks ago.  That's when the race
between Boxer and Herschensohn (two extremists on opposite ends) got close.
People who saw a 18-point Boxer wipeout in September were ready to vote for
Genis because the other two candidates were extremists, but when the race
became "too close to call," she wound up with only 2%.  Bummer.

Still, Perot energized a large coalition who are fed up with the business as
usual in the two major parties.  Hopefully, this could trickle down in to
other third parties (especially the LP) in '96.

Tim Irvin
******************************************************************************
Don't blame me!  I voted Libertarian.
From: yarvin@cs.yale.edu (Norman Yarvin)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Registering "Assault Keys"
Date: 9 Nov 1992 19:46:56 -0500
Organization: Yale Computer Science Department
NNTP-Posting-Host: cathy.na.cs.yale.edu

starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr) writes:
>}But other than by such means I cannot see any form of government oppression
>}emerging which could be remedied by small arms.  I mean, what is a person
>}whose house has been wrongly confiscated to do?  Barricade himself inside
>}and be shot to death in an exchange of gunfire with the police?  I think not.
>}Certainly the press would not report him as the martyr he would actually be.
>
>Fairly plausible fictional accounts of exactly this sort of thing are given
>in the movies "Harry's War" and "Stranger on My Land."

Right.  They are fictional.  In real life, the cops have so many methods for
dealing with such a situation that it isn't even funny.  In either of these
two movies, did the cops call for backup, and did twenty cars arrive as would
happen in reality?  Did one of the cars show up with a teargas grenade
launcher, and another three cars with the SWAT team?  I think not.

>  There's also a fella
>named Rodney King who lives in LA that might not have gotten beaten quite
>so badly if armed citizens had been able to calm the cops down a bit.

Good lord.  What sort of world do you live in?  The reason the cops started
attacking King was that he made what they perceived to be threatening
moves.  Can you imagine if someone had shown up and waved a gun at the cops?
That would be a threat an order of magnitude greater than the one King
posed.  Such a person would be unlikely to escape alive and uncrippled...as
King did.  Even if he did manage to hold the cops at gunpoint, he would
certainly not have been able to "calm them down".

>There's also the case of the Afganistani rebels who successfully repelled
>the Soviet Army (including Yeltsin) with the aid of stinger missiles.

I was not talking about the possibilities of producing a nationwide
revolution of a military sort.  Such a thing is even more impossible than a
local homeowner standing off the cops.

The Afghans would never have been able to counter the Soviets without
importing their weapons from friendly surrounding nations.  Stinger missiles
may be man-portable, but they are sophisticated and expensive -- extremely
difficult either to design or to manufacture.  The role that the Stingers
played in the conflict was not exaggerated.  Without them, the Soviets could
have used their armored helicopter gunships with impunity.  Do you know the
Viet Cong orders for dealing with AC-47 aircraft?  "Don't shoot at the
Dragon.  You will only make it angry."

--
Norman Yarvin						yarvin@cs.yale.edu
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: jgd@dixie.com (John De Armond)
Subject: I want my Coke
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 92 19:20:19 GMT
Organization: Dixie Communications Public Access.  The Mouth of the South.



I previously wrote in response to Frank Crary: 

>The only bright side is you libernuts who WILL vote for Marrou are so few
>it hopefully won't matter.  "Then why have I been arguing with you?"
>To turn the fence strattling lurkers who are silently reading this 
>thread.

>Hey Frank.  I'll betcha a coke you don't get 1 %.  Hell I'll betcha you 
>don't get 0.5% of the vote.  Bet?

From elsewhere on the net:

Here's what happened:  We relied on Associated Press for our national 
numbers. AP said it would send out third-party numbers starting at 
10:30 p.m. They didn't. I have no idea why.  But if their newsroom was 
anything like ours, I bet what happened was that some harried editor 
decided at the last minute that his staff had better things to do than 
worry about relatively trivial numbers. In our case, that meant not 
putting the number of blank votes in our tally charts; in AP's case, 
that probably meant the third-party numbers.  For what it's worth, 
here, finally, are those numbers: 
 
 Bill Clinton, Dem 43,688,671 - 43 percent
 George Bush, GOP (i) 38,109,410 - 37 percent
 Ross Perot, Ind 19,089,432 - 19 percent
 Andrew Marrou, Oth 278,528 - 0 percent
 Lenora Fulani, Oth 211,742 - 0 percent

 [rest mercifully deleted]

Ok, Frank.  I want my Coke.  More importantly, tell us what message this 
0.06% of the vote for Marrou sends to our newly more anti-gun congress?

John
-- 
John De Armond, WD4OQC               |Interested in high performance mobility?  
Performance Engineering Magazine (TM) |
Marietta, Ga                         |Interested in high tech and computers? 
jgd@dixie.com                        |Write me about PE Magazine
Need Usenet public Access in Atlanta?  Write Me for info on Dixie.com.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: PA142548@utkvm1.utk.edu (T. Archer)
Subject: Re: A thought on the comming gun bans
Keywords: To purchase, or not to purchase....
Organization: University of Tennessee 
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 17:19:14 GMT

In article <1992Nov11.033027.24187@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary) writes:
>In article <PA142548.417.721409979@utkvm1.utk.edu> PA142548@utkvm1.utk.edu (
T. Archer) writes:>>>Mostly becuase of the Fifth Amendment to our 
Constitution: ">
>>C'mon Frank:  if the congress critters are willing to ignore the protection 
>>afforded us by the Second Amendment, why do you think they will pay any 
>>attention to the Fifth?
>
>No, but the Supreme Court probably would: They are willing to overturn
>laws on Fifth Amendment grounds, even if they are reluctant to hear
>Second Amendment cases.
>

I hope you're right.  My guess is that the Supremes are a bunch of statists 
who are going to refuse to hear any firearms cases that come before them.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Vote Dempublican, it's easier than thinking.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
From: chrisb@natinst.com (Chris Bartz)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Damage Assessment after Comrade Clinton's victory?
Date: 5 Nov 1992 11:08:13 -0600
Organization: National Instruments, Austin, TX
NNTP-Posting-Host: eagle.natinst.com

In article <1992Nov5.041704.21413@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary) writes:
>
>Could someone from California please let us know if Boxer really
>won? The national news _predicted_ she was going to, but later
>last night, I was on the phone with a friend in California. At that
>point, it looked like the media prediction was wrong: She was behind
>by 5% with half the ballots counted. 
>

I was wondering if Boxer really won myself.  This mornings papaer says
she has 48% ro Herschensohn's 44%.  Do you need a majority or just
a plurality to win in California.  The Georgia Senate race is 49% to
47% and I've heard there will be a run off.

One of the Democratic wins was in Wisconsin.  Feingold beat Kasten.
Does anyone know where Feingold stands on RKBA?


-- 
-chris bartz (chrisb@natinst.com)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
From: PA142548@utkvm1.utk.edu (T. Archer)
Subject: Re: A thought on the comming gun bans
Keywords: To purchase, or not to purchase....
Organization: University of Tennessee 
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 15:39:39 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.022829.10812@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary) writes:
>Mostly becuase of the Fifth Amendment to our Constitution: "

C'mon Frank:  if the congress critters are willing to ignore the protection 
afforded us by the Second Amendment, why do you think they will pay any 
attention to the Fifth?
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Vote Dempublican, it's easier than thinking.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
From: m0102@tnc.UUCP (FRANK NEY)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Rouge Police in Detroit
Date: 8 Nov 92 00:31:20 GMT
Reply-To: m0102@tnc.UUCP (FRANK NEY)
Organization: The Next Challenge, Fairfax, Va.


From the Washington Post, Saturday November 7.

SEVEN OFFICERS SUSPENDED IN FATAL DETROIT BEATING

   Police officers beat a motorist to death with a flashlight,
striking him even after he was handcuffed and paramedics had arrived,
Police Chief Stanley Knox said yesterday.  Seven officers, including a
supervisor, participated or watched and were suspended without pay.
   Malice Wayne Green, 35, died of head injuries after he was stopped
by police Thursday night, Knox said.  At least one officer used a
flashlight to beat Green, KNox said, and the flashlight caused the
death.
   "Not everyone actually struck a blow," Knox said.  He said he
understood that both officers who stopped Green struck him.
   Knox said Green, who was black, was stopped for unspecified reasons
by two veteran plainclothes officers, whom he declined to identify. 
The officers called for backup Za54|mk, and at least five, including a sergeant, responded, Knox said.
   Knox said that the seven officers included blacks and whites but
that he could not say whether race was a factor in the beating.  At
issue are when the beating started and how many officers were
involved.

--30--

And these are the people Sarah Brady wants to trust as the sole
civillian posessors of firearms?

Permit me to hazard a guess: Mr. Green attempted to stand on his
constitutional rights.  The Detroit police chose to see this as a
violation of Special Police Crime #1, aka Contempt of Cop.

Frank Ney N4ZHG EMT-A  LPVa NRA ILA GOA CCRTKBA "M-O-U-S-E"
Commandant and Acting President, Northern Virginia Free Militia
Send e-mail for an application and more information
----------------------------------------------------------------
The tree of liberty must be watered from time to time
with the blood of patriots......and tyrants.
           - Thomas Jefferson
-- 
The Next Challenge - Public Access Unix in Northern Va. - Washington D.C.
703-803-0391 To log in for trial and account info.
From: watt-alan@net.yale.edu (Alan Watt)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: Alternative RKBA Groups Needed
Date: 12 Nov 92 14:51:46 GMT
Organization: Yale University, Computing & Information Systems
Originator: swatt@mickey.CS.Yale.Edu


In article <1992Nov11.180504.1862@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu>, jrm@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu writes:
|> Should new pro-RKBA groups, not affiliated with the NRA, be formed and
|> supported ?
|> 
	< suggestion for alternate advertising strategy >
|> 
|> Now, the NRA would never fund such an ad - no matter how effective
|> it would be. They are stuck on 'traditionalism' and have been so
|> badly hurt in the PR department that they could never risk a radical
|> approach. However - other groups ... well apart from NRA ... could
|> do such ads. At the price of video equipment these days, a broadcast
|> quality tape could be made for peanuts. Knee-jerk anti-NRA might
|> listen to an alternative group ... and negative reactions could not
|> be legitimately directed against NRA. A winning strategy.

I think you are quite ignorant of what the NRA has *tried* to do in
the way of advertising.  They have a small problem with the main-line
media refusing to accept their ads.  If you want to reach the properly
receptive audience with an ad showing the advantages of gun ownership
for the elderly, Soldier of Fortune magazine is not the right vehicle.

Similarly, although the new publication "Women and Guns" has been
unexpectedly successful, if you want to reach lots of women you need
access to Vogue, Ladies Home Journal, etc., etc.,  all of whom refuse
to accept ads from the NRA.  Ladies Home Jornal even refused an ad
from Smith&Wesson which simply said "If you are considering purchase
of a firearm for protection, please call this toll-free number".

I agree that some of the NRA ads are off-base, but it's not enough
to have the "right message"; you need access to the right market.

My own view on the RKBA issue is that advertising is a distant third
when it comes to convincing people to change their thinking.  I have
learned from my own life that experience is strong, but argument is
weak.  You can hit an open-minded person with the best arguments in
the world and he might be convinced.  But if the other side gets an
equal crack at him next week, he is just as likely to change his mind
again.  As soon as people have experienced something for themselves,
they have a grounding in personal experience that is stronger than
any arguments.

If you really want to help save the 2nd amendment, don't bother with
advertising campaigns; take a friend shooting.
-- 
  Alan S. Watt
  Yale University			Computing and Information Systems
  Box 2112 Yale Station			(203) 432-6602
  New Haven, CT  06520-2112		Watt-Alan@Yale.Edu
Xref: sparky talk.politics.guns:23991 misc.legal:19809
From: ee152fdm@sdcc15.ucsd.edu (Maiko Covington)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.guns,misc.legal
Subject: Re: Japanese exchange student killed in Louisiana...
Date: 11 Nov 92 20:50:08 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.guns
Organization: University of California, San Diego

Can we PLEASE get this out of soc.culture.japan?