HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bb@generali.harvard.edu (Brent Byer)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Work for free (was Re: Pet Peeve "No E-mail" ...)
Date: 21 Jul 92 20:27:27 GMT
Organization: Textware, Cambridge, MA

In article <MROSE.92Jul21120405@kali.stsci.edu> mrose@stsci.edu writes:
>On Mon, 20 Jul 1992 15:03:20 GMT, lfoard@Turing.ORG (Lawrence C. Foard) said:
>
>> what next, requiring potential employees to work several months for free :)

> ...  Nice idea about the work without pay, I'll pass it on.

Well, way back in '68-'75, when I was actually someone's employee, I
frequently arranged, upon starting a new job, to work the first few weeks
"for free", in exchange for a bureaucracy-free extra few weeks of vacation.
Considering all the grief I hear about getting "unpaid leave" these days,
the idea may still have merit.  Of course, today's "screw them before they
screw you" attitudes might preclude the implied trust.

Brent Byer
	"You know, every time I see George Bush making a speech, I am
         reminded of a bio-engineering project gone haywire.  Imagine the
         design of John Wayne, but the implementation of Mister Rogers."
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: debbiet@techbook.com (Adia Information Technologies)
Subject: Wanted:  information on IBM mainframe bbs's for jobs topic
Summary: Wanted:  IBM mainframe bbs's for "jobs" topic
Organization: TECHbooks of Beaverton Oregon - Public Access Unix
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 00:30:30 GMT


I have been a USENET user of misc.jobs. misc., misc. contracts.misc.,
and misc.resumes.misc. for 6 months and find it to be a valuable tool.

I am looking to access a similar bulletin board who's users are more
IBM mainframe software oriented.  I do alot of hiring for our company
and in addition to UNIX based products, we also have positions for 
professionals skilled in IBM mainframe software and products.  

If anyone can provide information on bbs's for this product area that
have "jobs" groups, it would be very much appreciated.  

:wq

-- 
debbiet@techbook.COM  Public Access User --- Not affiliated with TECHbooks
Public Access UNIX and Internet at (503) 644-8135 (1200/2400, N81) 
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc,misc.jobs.offered,ne.jobs
From: jkenton@world.std.com (Jeff Kenton)
Subject: Re: Observations at software firms
Organization: Kenton Systems Corporation, Weston MA
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 14:44:09 GMT

In article <1992Jul17.023654.29234@unlv.edu> whitney@unlv.edu (Lee Whitney) writes:
>
>While attending interviews for my job search I noticed several
>interesting qualities related to software firms.  I would like to hear
>any related comments on the subjects.
>
>
>1.  There are no older people in software development.
>
>Where do programmers go when they turn 35?  When I was introduced to
>the teams for some major products on the market, the average age
>seemed to be less than 30.  Beyond that, there seemed to few 'older'
>people at most other positions in the companies too.  I am somewhat
>concerned that after 10 years in this industry I will magically
>disappear.
>

You are generalizing from a small sample.  There are "older" programmers
everywhere.  But, there are differences.  People do move up into mamagement
after a while at a company.  Also, older programmers usually don't have CS
degrees -- there weren't CS departments in most schools 20+ years ago.
Many came out of math or physics or EE (or music!) departments instead.



-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
=			Jeff Kenton	(617) 894-4508			=
=			    jkenton@world.std.com			=
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: mattel@auto-trol.com (Matt Telles)
Subject: Re: Pet Peeve "No E-mail"
Organization: Auto-trol
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 13:31:11 GMT

In article <1992Jul20.235323.28800@unislc.uucp> hastings@unislc.UUCP (Clint Hastings,B1E05,5119) writes:
>In article <ted.711661530@sage0> ted@sage0.gsfc.nasa.gov (Ted Ying) writes:
>>lfoard@Turing.ORG (Lawrence C. Foard) writes:
>>>In article <BrJJ11.4K5@world.std.com> cisml@world.std.com (Marty Lebowitz) writes:
>
>Gee. Like it would be so hard to give email access to those who need it.
>Businesses were fairly quick to jump on the fax bandwagon, yet they
>won't even consider email, which is far more efficient as a means of
>easy communication than fax.

Sigh.  No, e-mail is *nowhere* as efficient or easy as FAX.  As a point of
interest, I have a FAX machine in my basement.  I FAX resumes to companies and
recruiters (both my own and others) all the time.  Why don't you have one?  They
only run a couple hundred dollars and make communication virtually
instantaneous.  Here, I am writing this letter on Tuesday morning at 7:30 a.m.
Want to bet you don't read it before *at least* noon?  If I were FAXing to you,
it would be there by 7:32.  To do all this on e-mail requires that I load up rn,
find your article, respond to it, tell rn to send it, wait for the computer to
send out the articles, etc.  To FAX, I just type it up (maybe even by computer!)
print it out and stuff it in the machine.  Then I dial a number.  That's all.  

Sorry, e-mail is not likely to replace FAX machines in the near future.
>
>Yes, in this electronic age, the act of writing something up on your
>computer, printing it out, filling out the envelope, stamping it so
>the Postal Service can then carry it around the country for a few days,
>so that someone can open it and read it and throw the envelope (and
>possibly the contents too) away VERSUS writing something up on your 
>computer and emailing it to someone who will get it in a matter of
>hours IS difficult, wasteful (time, effort, and don't forget about trees!),
>and IMHO immoral. How much longer can we afford to hang on to these 
>outdated practices? And yes, I would LOVE the equivalent of bill-paying
>that could be done like direct deposit. Just think of the resources
>that would save.
>

Sigh again.  I think you need to take a class in human behavior and response.

Matt
-- 
==============================================================================
Matt Telles 	                 mattel@auto-trol.COM
                                 {...}ncar!ico!auto-trol!mattel
Auto-trol Technology 12500 N Washington Denver, CO 80241-2404 (303)252-2874
From: ottj@longs.LANCE.ColoState.EDU (Jim Ott)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Salaries
Date: 24 Jul 92 20:34:21 GMT
Reply-To: ottj@longs.LANCE.ColoState.EDU (Jim Ott)
Organization: Colorado State U. Center for Computer Assisted Engineering.

What is the best way to determine what an appropriate starting salary
should be? I will be getting a PhD in EE soon and I have significant 
industry experience. The question is how do I determine what salary
I should expect. I haven't worked full-time so I have no record  to
base my salary on, but I have enough experience that a company desiring
5-8 years is interested. Of course, times are hard and I may not get what 
I think is reasonable. Any tips on how to best arrive at a salary range?

Jim Ott
ottj@longs.lance.colostate.edu
303-491-5406

>> Practice Random Kindness and Senseless Acts of Beauty <<
From: kodiak@festus.ksu.ksu.edu (Bryan D. Nehl)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Re: Looking for information on home based programming ....
Date: 23 Jul 1992 13:50:11 -0500
Organization: Kansas State University
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: festus.ksu.ksu.edu

Swamy asks about home based programming.  I attempted to send e-mail
but it seems that most com sights are not well connected.  So here is
the e-mail that I was sending him.

What you are talking about doing is computer consulting.  A couple of
things that will help you get started is to have some nice business
cards made up.  Have real invoices, i.e. the ones that have your
company name printed on them.  You will also need to check with your
city zoning office and see if you are "allowed" to work in your home.
In my city we are allowed to use up to 1/4 of the residence for a
business.  You will also want to get a separate business line and an
answering machine to put on it.  This will make keeping track of
business expenses easier and will be deductible at the end of the
year.  Some things to watch out with for the IRS, if you are going to
deduct your home office and computer, you can't use the room or
computer for anything else.  I have heard on the net that they can get
you for things like: "I used the computer 50% for personal use."  Aha,
we gotcha, no deduction for home office then if it wasn't moved to
another room for use!   There are quite a few good books available to
read on consulting and contracting and the like.  I am at work right
now so I don't have the titles handy.  By the way, I am currently
working full-time for the USDA and do computer consulting on the side.
Also, no matter what you would like to believe about trying to do
consulting for individuals you will find that the place you will earn
your money is with small businesses.

Bryan.

913.776.0210 (home line #1) or 913.776.5959 (home line #2)
/* ===================== kodiak%kodiakpc.uucp@phobos.cis.ksu.edu ====+
[   Bryan Nehl                        ][ kodiak@matt.ksu.ksu.edu     ]
[   kodiak@Kodiakpc.Manhattan.KS.US   ][ kodiak@phobos.cis.ksu.edu   ]
+______________ ...!rutgers!matt.ksu.ksu.edu!kodiak _______________ */
From: rodgers@engcon.marshall.ltv.com (KMRODGERS)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Re: Security Clearance
Date: 28 Jul 92 17:35:48 GMT
Reply-To: rodgers@engcon.UUCP (KMRODGERS)
Organization: LTV MEG, Dallas, TX

In article <1992Jul17.045407.20481@tamsun.tamu.edu> bell@cs.tamu.edu (Will Bell) writes:
>In article <raj2.711338604@Isis.MsState.Edu> raj2@ra.msstate.edu (rex allan jones) writes:
>> What is the procedure used by companies to give
>>employees a security clearance?

>   Secret -- this one involves filling out the standard DoD form 398-2,
>   where you list all your former residences, jobs, organizations belonged
>   to, and employers since age 16 and/or the last 5 years.  You also list 
>   your parents' names and birthplaces.  You also give your drug use history, 
>   travel history, and just scads of other information that you probably 
>   thought no one even cared about.
>   Top Secret -- probably ten times worse than the above (I only had a 
>   Secret clearance).

Don't forget to have a CERTIFIED copy of your birth certificate (ordinary
photocopy or hospital record won't do) or maybe a passport, as these are the
only acceptable forms of identification for U.S. natives.  Also, you forgot
to mention the most nerve-wracking process of all: fingerprinting.  Yes, you
get to have your prints taken and shipped to the FBI for a standard background
check.  The way I heard it, first they run your prints and do a credit report;
then they verify your last job (or check with your alma mater if you've just
graduated), and maybe call your parents.  If you're a native-born U.S. citizen
and nothing out of the ordinary shows up in either your application or in
the background check so far, they will probably stop there (for a plain jane
Secret clearance).  For special access or Top Secret, they will keep going
(I don't know this firsthand since I've (thank Ghod) never had one of these).
Time: about 60 days for Secret; 90-180 days for anything more.

One possibility for some amusement during this process:  if you or your parents
lived/lives in a rural area without an official street address, you will have
to draw a map showing how to get there.  The map can lend itself to all kinds
of subtle (and not-so-subtle) embellishments (for instance, look at the maps in
"Bored of the Rings") . . .

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin Rodgers  LTV Aerospace  rodgers%engcon@uunet.uu.net
"there's a man up in that judgement chair, got his ass /
   God's right arm, some kind of double pair, all right . . ."
                         -- Chris Whitley
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: dp@world.std.com (Jeff DelPapa)
Subject: What is
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 03:46:19 GMT

What is considered a "polite" interval for reposting to m.j.resumes?
(month? two weeks?) - I reposted after a month - and It has been about
three weeks...

<dp>

Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc,misc.jobs.offered,ne.jobs
From: kgg@mv.mv.com (Kenn Goutal)
Subject: Re: Observations at software firms
Organization: MV Communications, Inc.
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 21:04:40 GMT

One of the original questions was "Where do programmers go after they
turn 35?".  One of the first answers was that they fall prey to "programmer
burnout".  While true, I think this is slightly misleading.

	Where do professional athletes go after they turn 35?
I don't know where most of them go, but they don't stay on as
professional athletes.  They fall prey to "athletic burnout".

	Where do research scientists go after they turn 35?
Again, who knows, but you can bet that not many of them are doing 
research worth beans after that, but probably are managing other,
younger researchers who haven't yet fallen prey to "researcher burnout".

	Where do championship 'go' players go after they turn 35.
Dunno.  Maybe they open up noodle shops.  But, to my knowledge, there
hasn't been a world champion 'go' player over 40 in the history of the
game.  Why?  "go player burnout".

Bottom line:  *On average*, somewhere between 30 and 40 your brain turns
to mush, to put it baldly.  More specifically, it doesn't work as creatively,
nor does it have the stamina it once had;  single-bit and multi-bit failures
become more common as brain cells die and are not replaced.  The muscles and
joints of an athlete have a slight advantage in that the cells to get 
replaced, but in general the body doesn't work so well after a while, either.

Of course, there are exceptions.  But they are not the rule.
The problem is not specific to programmers.

It might be cheaper in the long run to put everybody over <pick some age
limit> into retirement, and quit spending corporate and government money
trying to pretend that they are still useful.

Hmmm...  Where's my flameproof suit?  (I can almost remember the trade
name for the fabric, but being on the wrong side of 40, I'm having a
single-bit failure and can't retrieve it.  So HA.)

-- Kenn Goutal
kenn@mv.MV.COM
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: pdh@netcom.com (Phil Howard )
Subject: Re: Need suit and tie for a job interview ??
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 92 18:40:54 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

>I've said it before on this thread: if two candidates for a job are seemingly
>identical except for the clothes they wear, it is the reasons for wearing
>those clothes and not the clothes themselves that should be the deciding
>factor.  

From the interviewee's point of view, the reason would basically be to give
you the upper hand over someone not doing so, or to avoid someone else having
the upper hand over you if you don't.

From the interviwer's point of view, it SHOULD depend on the job.  If I was
interviewing for the news anchor for a network affiliate TV station, then the
suit and tie most certainly will matter.  For a sales rep it will also matter.

For a programmer who does not meet the public, the two candidates, one in
suit and tie, and one in tie-dyed and jeans, REMAIN IDENTICAL and I will try
to figure out what to do to determine who will best do the job (or maybe even
try to find a way to hire them both).  Same goes for engineering or other
techie jobs.

How would *YOU* decide the matter if the job was to be the night janitor?


>Rather than blindly holding a belief, why not seek the truth?  Has it
>occurred to you that one candidate may not have been born with silver
>spoon in mouth, but was forced to work and struggle to attain the education
>that was handed to the "senator's son"?  What kind of streets have you tried
>to walk down in a suit?  Isn't it possible that a person dresses not as they
>would like to, but in the only way they can afford to?

I doubt someone who cannot afford to own even one tie is ready for a job
as a sales rep.  Maybe next year?
-- 
/***********************************************************************\
| Phil Howard  ---  KA9WGN  ---  pdh@netcom.com   |   "The problem with |
| depending on government is that you cannot depend on it" - Tony Brown |
\***********************************************************************/
From: ghost@ra.nrl.navy.mil (G. Host)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Re: Bonus Criterion and %
Date: 30 Jul 92 02:33:46 GMT
Reply-To: ghost@ra.nrl.navy.mil (G. Host)
Organization: Naval Research Laboratory, Washington, DC


> Article <2893@isgtec.isgtec.com> From: mike@isgtec.com (Mike Sellers)

> > 2) What is an "average" bonus, as a % of pay?

> I don't think there is an average.  It depends entirely on how good
> a job someone has been doing, how they are viewed by their management,
> and how their efforts affect the bottom-line.  I've seen and heard of
> (first-hand) bonuses ranging from a dinner out with your spouse to 
> $50,000+.  The standard deviation is obviously high. :-)

I can tell you that I have got bonuses at three of the four companies
I have worked at (actually 5 but I have been at the current company
less than a month so they still have their chance :) )

The first company I got shift differentials, extended work week
(basicly they let salaried employees work extra hours abnd get
paid for it) and Christmas certificates for turkeys and hams.

The 2nd I got a $3000 performance bonus (largest in the company
for the non-management types), a $1000 recruitment bonus,
and a 2 month leave package with benefits when the company 'restructured'
(i.e. the new boss had the choice to keep who they wanted,
another person got a two week notice and escorted to the door).

At the 3rd I got $200 Night-on-the-town quarterly bonus 
(I could send in expense reports for up to $200 for dinner/shows/whatever)
and a $600 team bonus for my team - we went to see Man of La Mancha
at a dinner theatre with our spouses.

At the 4th I got nothing but it is a body shop so I expected nothing.

Bonuses vary per companies but generally they reflect what project you
are working on and your quality of work.  Some companies don't pay
bonuses; other feel bonuses are the way to handle special efforts
performed because it is cheaper than raises (raises compound year-to-year).
-- 
Glenn Host          | Moving soon; watch this space for new address!
12307 Tigers Eye Ct |
Reston, VA 22091    |
(703) 620-1141      | I will public post abusive email! Be warned!
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: oneil@odin.unomaha.edu (Sharon O'Neil)
Subject: Re: Need suit and tie for a job interview ??
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 18:07:41 GMT

bwb@cs.unh.edu (Brent Benson) writes:

>cottle@b11.b11.ingr.com (Tim Cottle) writes:

>Yowza!  Glad I never interviewed there.  If people are going to judge
>my seriousness about a position by the clothes I wear, then it's a
>good bet that they're going to start making other sorts of
>unsubstantiated judgements about me by my appearance once I start to
>work there (intelligence, ability to perform the job). 

I would have to agree with others in this thread.  One may never wear a suit
to that office again, but at the same time, I would rather dress *very*
conservatively for the interview.  I would rather not gamble.  

>I agree with
>the other people who have remarked that interviews are a two way
>street and that you should try to be honest about who you are and what
>you are comfortable with.  I'm not comfortable wearing a suit to an
>interview.  The whole "dress for success" attitude gives me the
>creeps.  Let people judge me by my accomplishments, abilities, and
>words rather than my clothes.  BTW, this strategy has paid off very
>well in my recent job search.

I also abhor the entire concept of "dress for success" especially because
I am a woman and "successful" women's clothing tends to be *incredibly
uncomfortable*: panty hose, camisole, slip, *high heels*, etc.  

I guess my philosophy is this: I want them to spend more time judging my
accomplishments, abilities, and words.  And therefore, I'm going to dress
impeccably so that they have *more time* to concentrate on my 
accomplishments, abilities, and words.  

I do know, after two teaching internships, however, that I'm going to 
make sure I examine how women are expected to dress in the workplace.  My
first internship was a nightmare: I was told by my mentors that I should
wear heavier eye makeup and higher heels.  The second internship was much
better.  They were more concerned with how I performed and when, late in
the semester, I spoke to my mentor about the first internship (after we had
built up trust), she was shocked to hear that I'd been criticized for not
wearing heavy eye makeup.  

Had I done my research before selecting the first internship, I might have
selected a different school.  The point to be made here is that one needs to
do research and figure out exactly what is to be expected.  

 
>--
Sharon O'Neil
oneil@odin.unomaha.edu
From: wxu@spock.ecs.umass.edu (Wei Xu)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Re: EasyResume(TM) Resume Writing Outline/Sample
Date: 30 Jul 92 01:07:54 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst

This is a testing.
From: hashton@twics.co.jp (HUGH ASHTON)
Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
Subject: Translation
Date: 22 Jul 92 17:49:05 GMT
Organization: TWICS, Tokyo, Japan

==========================================  
ENGLISH -> EUROPEAN LANGUAGE TRANSLATORS
==========================================

We are investigating the possibility of our translation needs
being met by internationally-based freelance translators
linked by modem.  

We (Crestec Inc - Twics is a BBS) are a Japanese-based
documentation company, producing manuals for: motorcycles,
electronic musical instruments, audio products (including
products for the professional market), copiers, fax machines
and the like.  These manuals are produced in English in the first
instance, and then translated into the following languages:

French German Dutch Spanish Swedish Finnish

and occasionally

Portugese Norwegian Danish Hungarian
(other languages may also be needed from time to time)

Our preferred hardware/software combination is
NeXT/FrameMaker, though obviously we can deal with most of the
common formats (ASCII, RTF, WP, WS, etc.)  Rates of pay are
competitive, dependent on rarity of language, degree of
familiarity with subject matter, etc.

If you (or anyone you know) are interested in taking this further,
please contact:

hashton@twics.co.jp

or, if your friend has no immediate access to e-mail: 

Hugh Ashton
Crestec Inc
Shizuoka-ken T431-32
Hamamatsu-shi
Kasaishinden-cho 686-15
JAPAN 

Tel: +81-53-435-3553 
(The Japanese to get through our switchboard is "Ashton-san wa
irasshai imasu ka?")  

Fax: +81-53-435-3356

Newsgroups: misc.jobs.misc
From: dbarkey@rocky.claremont.edu
Subject: Barclay/Career consultants/Heard of em?
Organization: Libraries of the Claremont Colleges
Date: 22 Jul 92 11:38:16 PST

Hi, I've been exploring opportunities for an overseas job and have found
a firm called Barclay International, Ltd.  They bill themselves as
"International Career Consultants."  For this service they want a 
retainer of $750.  After securing employment they want an additional
$750.  Through their services your qualifications are continuously
matched against all appropriate employment opportunities located in
their data base for up to one year.  If you haven't found a job after
1 year, then you are entitled to a refund of $250.

My question is this:  Has anybody heard of this company or a similar
firm, and how legit are their services?  It seems that after you
pay them they have no incentive to find job opportunities for you.

Thanks for the assistance.