From: pdb059@ipl.jpl.nasa.gov (Paul Bartholomew)
Newsgroups: ca.politics
Subject: Re: The Mother of All Flame Wars, Part 3 of 4
Date: 6 Oct 92 20:10:35 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Image Processing Lab

More than halfway through this and I still haven't seen much evidence to
support his crusade.  I sure hope this one is better.

In article <12606@optilink.UUCP>, cramer@optilink.UUCP (Clayton Cramer) writes:

> How Many Homosexuals Are There?
> -------------------------------
[According to Clayton, backed up by Masters & Johnson, 3.3%]

Surprise, surprise, he has another one of his claims backed up by somebody.
Congratulations, Clayton.

> The Sexual Orientation of a Child Molester
> ------------------------------------------
> 
> It has been an article of faith for the homosexual community that
> a child molester isn't "a homosexual," regardless of the sex of
> his victims.

No, it's been an article of faith to most of those psychiatrists who
make their life's work a study of child molestation.  Sources have been
posted to these newsgroups, Clayton.  Have you read them?

> This wonderfully reassuring (to homosexuals) idea 
> seems not to have taken hold with any of the three specialized
> books examined.  Quite the opposite.  In describing a study done 
> in Calgary:
> 
>     Abuse of both males and females was overwhelmingly at the
>     hands of males, so the abuse of boys was usually homosexual
>     in nature.[Bagley & King, 122]

Ah, but notice how they are using the word homosexual, Clayton!  All they
are saying is that boys who are molested are usually molested by men.  This
says absolutely nothing about the sexuality of the molester and does nothing
to support your "quite the opposite" conclusion.

> In describing the nature of the abuse received by children:
> 
>     The encounters with female victims were usually heterosexual
>     (94%), whereas for males they were usually homosexual (84%).
>     [Faller, 18]

And yet again, all this refers to is that men are doing most of the
molestation.  Once again, this says absolutely nothing about the sexuality
of the molester and does not support your "quite the opposite" conclusion.

> Similarly, I ran into several articles in _Archives of Sexual
> Behavior_ in the last two years that discussed, with no apparent
> embarrassment, "heterosexual pedophiles" and "homosexual pedophiles."

Sources, please?  Context?  Once again, this does not support your "quite
the opposite" conclusion.

> The Everstines, as well as Faller and Bagley/King, draw a line
> between those molesters who go after females (who are usually
> related, or part of the household), and those that go primarily
> after males (who are usually NOT part of the household).  In 
> describing the molester who goes primarily after boys:

An excerpt is presented from Everstine which does support his "quite
the opposite" conclusion and does support the preceding paragraph.
Unfortunately, Clayton doesn't provide any evidence for his assertion
that Faller and Bagley/King do the same.  Tsk, tsk.  Still, I guess
I should be grateful that once again you have an assertion that
seems to be supported by an authority (it's such a rare occurrence).

Incidentally, I still haven't seen any numbers.  Are we getting to those?

> Child Molestation As A Cause of Homosexuality
> ---------------------------------------------
> 
> Much to my surprise, my thoughts on this subject weren't the
> first.  

Clayton, this subject is as old as the hills.  Why should you be surprised
that you weren't the first?  Hell, this topic goes back to the previous
century.  Did you think that you alone had uncovered some mass conspiracy?

[Discussion about how boys and girls may respond to child molestation--in
both cases, they *may* turn homosexual.]

And once again, we actually have a case where Clayton's speculations are
supported by some authority.  Amazingly enough, the passages actually say
what he claims they say.  Unfortunately, they don't go far enough.  For
example, just what is the percentage of molested children who turn gay?
Why should molested females turn gay (to avoid men), while molested males
turn gay (and seek men)?  What percentage of homosexuals were molested
as children?

What you have established is that some (unspecified number) of molested
children become gay as the result of the molestation.  What you have yet
to establish is whether this is a significant portion of the gay community.

>     It looks as though sexual abuse of boys acts for some as a
>     kind of recruitment process into adult homosexuality:
>     it is the conflicts surrounding the homosexual role rather
>     than the childhood abuse *per se* which diminishes self-
>     esteem and self-concept.[Bagley & King, 122]
> 
> Yup.  Molesting boys seems to be a recruiting process into
> adult homosexuality.  That's not just some crazy guy at Optilink,
> that's a professor of social work.

By jove, you've got me on this one.  You've actually presented something
here that contradicts what I believe and you have some evidence to support
it.  Damn, now I'm going to have to visit the library to confirm or deny
this.  Oh well....  Ah, by the way, just how many boys are recruited into
homosexuality this way?  And what did Bagley & King mean by "the conflicts
surrounding the homosexual role"?

Congratulations, Clayton.  This posting actually does (mostly) support the
claims you make herein.  For once, you've given me something to think about
and something that is worth following up (by further research).  After a
year and a half, it's about time....

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Paul Bartholomew          |   "The time has come, the walrus said, to talk of
                          |    many things..."                  Lewis Carroll
pdb059@ipl.jpl.nasa.gov   |   Disclaimer:  Opinions?  What opinions?
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Newsgroups: ca.politics