HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dpg@cs.nott.ac.uk (Dave `geek' Gymer)
Subject: Re: Getting AmiGuide to work?
Organization: Nottingham University
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 14:06:26 GMT

In article <75n3jx@rpi.edu> cleggp@rebecca.its.rpi.edu (Paul Jason Clegg) writes:
>Yes, I think we're holding on any sort of graphics for a (long) while.
[...]
>        Perhaps we should consider keeping graphics separate from the 
>text info?  That way, if a hitchhiker is short on disk space (as most should
>be, particularly after the guide gets big), they can just not download the
>pictures, and get the text data separately.  Plus, it would be a lot easier
>to deal with, I think.  Any comments?

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.  Then we could just add a special
header field with the name of the image, and guide readers with
graphic capability could pull up an image when requested (each article
could have several images, and each image could be referenced by
several articles).  Ditto for guides served over a network.
-- 
`Grave' Dave Gymer | 102.2  _/      _/  _/ _/  ____/  ____/
42 St Mary's Park  |       _/      _/  __/_/  _/      \
Louth, Lincs       |      _/      _/  _/__/  _/        \
LN11 0EF, England  |     ____/   _/  _/ _/  ____/  ____/   FM
From: "tobias b koehler" <UKJP@DKAUNI2.BITNET>
Newsgroups: alt.galactic-guide
Subject: ISO code, bold, italic ....
Date: 25 Jan 1993 19:55:42 +0100
Organization: University of Karlsruhe, Germany
Distribution: world

> From: kv07@IASTATE.EDU (Warren Vonroeschlaub)
>
>   Sure, the extended characters can be abbreviated as multi letter combination
> the toggle could be some sort of combine command.  Like \coe\c would mean to
> combine the oe into an o-umlaut.  If the system doesn't have the character tha
> combination corresponds to, it just ignores it and you get the standard
> approximation "oe".

Wait a minute. If you use that system you can't distinguish any more
between the (swedish, german) "o with two dots", the (norwegian,
danish) "o with slash" and the (french) "oe ligature".
If we use Warren's system, these three characters can be desribed
as \c"o\c, \c/o\c and \coe\c; that would allow to distinguish between
them.

All these three characters are in the ISO 8859.1 charset.

The only reason that I would see for NOT using an 8-bit character
set is that the 8th bit is stripped when sending an article by e-mail.

In the IBM character set 437 (used by most MS-DOS systems) there is
only the "o with two dots". The "o with slash" can be converted into
this one, the "oe ligature" would then be converted into "oe".

>   Note that the display program doesn't even have to worry about this.  The
> update program would be the one going through replacing "combination"
> characters.  The display programs wouldn't have to be changed at all.

Right. So we just have to decide if we want to have (a) an 8-bit input
format, or (b) 7-bit format with combinations described as above.

Regards

-=- tobi -=-
Newsgroups: alt.galactic-guide
From: dpg@cs.nott.ac.uk (Dave `geek' Gymer)
Subject: Graphic format
Organization: Nottingham University
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 12:32:39 GMT

In article <1993Jan25.165552.3741@cs.nott.ac.uk> pcxkrm@unicorn.nott.ac.uk (K.R.Marshall) writes:
[IFF mentioned in other quoted article]
>As for a graphics format, I guess GIF is slightly more appropriate,
>but I'm really not looking forward to dealing with them! - maybe we
>should just forget about graphics for the moment. (Not that I don't
>want to have to deal with them or anything!)

Depending on the sort of images we're talking about, JPEG would get my
vote, since it's more `standard' in some wierd sort of way, and the
compression is vastly better for digitized images.  For other types of
images, I'd say PPM and compress or zip (since the GNU folks now have
a Zip type program) would be a safer `lowest common denominator'
format.

-- Dave
-- 
`Grave' Dave Gymer |   ####   #       ####    ####   #####   ###  | I am the
42 St Mary's Park  |  #       #      #    #  #    #  #    #  # #  | Master
Louth, Lincs       |  #   #   #      #    #  #    #  #####    #   | Geek.
LN11 0EF, England  |   ####   #####   ####    ####   #        #   | "Gloop!"
Newsgroups: alt.galactic-guide
From: cleggp@aix.rpi.edu (Paul Jason Clegg)
Subject: Re: Status of WORKING.NEW  (Was: Re: ISO Code, bold, italic ....)
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 18:50:12 GMT

In article <1993Jan24.133904.11732@vela.acs.oakland.edu> swbaker@vela.acs.oakland.edu (Texas Bob/Eddie Froman depending on th'moon) writes:
>In article <=2l3dfg@rpi.edu> cleggp@aix.rpi.edu (Paul Jason Clegg) writes:
>
>>It sounds hokey, but I usually end up using DOS 5.0's Edit program to edit
>>the articles I edit, because it's a half-decent text editor, though it doesn't
>>have line wrap.  I know, however, that I can deal with longer lines than
>>80 chars very easily, no problem.  But what about other people?
>
>Actually, Paul, that Edit thing often sticks TAB (icck! koff! gahg!) char's
>(or, more accurately, it doesn't provide a way of stripping them out for you)
>in stuff - I've since switched to using the Turbo Pascal text editor,
>because it allows a ton of files open and on-screen at the same time, and
>the block-n-copy stuff is more powerful, etc... and we can turn OFF the
>tab characters!

Well, since there shouldn't be any reason for tabulation to begin with, in
the articles, it would be a rare event that Edit would stick 'em in...  But,
yes, I completely forgot about using one of Borland's IDEs to edit the
articles...

...Paul


-- 
+                +        +    +  + + +  +    +        +                +
      Paul Clegg, cleggp@rpi.edu.   Send me your Guide Articles! 
         System One RPG designer.   Project Galactic Guide Coordinator.
+                +        +    +  + + +  +    +        +                +
From: phudl@csv.warwick.ac.uk (Mr S J Liddicott)
Newsgroups: alt.galactic-guide
Subject: Re: Getting AmiGuide to work?
Date: 26 Jan 1993 11:35:25 -0000
Organization: Computing Services, University of Warwick, UK
NNTP-Posting-Host: emmental.csv.warwick.ac.uk

In article <75n3jx@rpi.edu> cleggp@rebecca.its.rpi.edu (Paul Jason Clegg) writes:
 >             Perhaps we should consider keeping graphics separate from the 
 >text info?  That way, if a hitchhiker is short on disk space (as most should
 >be, particularly after the guide gets big), they can just not download the
 >pictures, and get the text data separately.  Plus, it would be a lot easier
 >to deal with, I think.  Any comments?  (Not that your comments would amount
 >to much; I don't forsee adding graphics capabilities anytime soon, but you
 >never know...)
 >
 >...Paul


I suggest using JPEG compression.  It's supposed to give massive saivings
(but it is NOT an altogther lossless method)

There is a shareware PC Jpeg program available from THE SOFTWARE LABS
Overland Drive (somewhere Clifornia) etc.... well what I'm saying is
is the concept ok?  they reckon 1 MEG pictures can go down to 69K
Seems good to me...

-- 
*----------*-------------------------------------------------------------*
| Sam   Jam|"Never underestimate the importance of a cheap laugh"-       |
| Liddicott| phudl@csv.warwick.ac.uk                     Plucky Duck TTA |
*------------------------------------------------------------------------*
Newsgroups: alt.galactic-guide
From: kv07@IASTATE.EDU (Warren Vonroeschlaub)
Subject: Re: ISO Code, bold, italic ....
Reply-To: kv07@IASTATE.EDU (Warren Vonroeschlaub)
Organization: Ministry of Silly Walks
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 20:28:42 GMT

In article <=2l3dfg@rpi.edu>, cleggp@aix.rpi.edu (Paul Jason Clegg) writes:
> The ONLY problem I can forsee though, is line length problems (I know, not a
> big one, but you have to think); after all, if you plan the line to be
> 76 characters long WITH the special characters in it, but then you have to
> change the special characters to to a 5 or 6 character string, you're going 
> to dump over the 80 column width (not to mention the preferred 76 character
> length).

  This would also be a problem for the update program to solve.  It isn't too
hard to read through a file and insert newlines after the last word that will
fit on a line, while deleting single newlines to get the spacing right.

  I was under the impression that this was the whole reason for having double
returns after a paragraph: so the reader program can distinguish between a
next-line spot and a next-paragraph spot.  This would be a boon to those with
"funny" screens (ie, TSR-80s which have 76 character screens (like there is a
guide in the works for it, but you know what I mean)).

  I've written adventure games that do this (some of the words being printed
were variables, so I couldn't predict where the cr's were to be put) so I know
it isn't hard.  It could probably even be done on the fly.

 |  __L__
-|-  ___  Warren Kurt vonRoeschlaub
 |  | o | kv07@iastate.edu
 |/ `---' Iowa State University
/|   ___  Math Department
 |  |___| 400 Carver Hall
 |  |___| Ames, IA  50011
 J  _____
Newsgroups: alt.galactic-guide
From: dpg@cs.nott.ac.uk (Dave `geek' Gymer)
Subject: Re: Graphic format
Organization: Nottingham University
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 14:03:07 GMT

In article <1993Jan26.132748.7630@cs.nott.ac.uk> pcxkrm@unicorn.nott.ac.uk (K.R.Marshall) writes:
>To be honest - I'm going to have _real_ problems dealing with any form
>of bit-mapped colour graphics on the Atari

Well, yeah, TUG! suffers from similar problems.  It's all very well me
having a 256 800x600 X11 display, but that's not getting my curses
front end very far...  :-)

>(Mind you, if it's only
>the Atari that's the problem everyone might just turn around and say
>"so what?" - but I don't think this is a healthy attitude!)

Well, I'm an ST owner too (famous Mega 2: used to develop Canvas!).
Mind you, once I've got Llamatron for the PC...

>Some kind of vector graphic system might be better - but this wouldn't
>allow any nice scanned images etc.

Just can't win, can we?

>As an aside, Dave - had you noticed that we're in the same place?!

Yup.  At first I thought I was seeing my own posts...

-- Dave
-- 
|\  /|  Frooble blob grobble qrik woggle nib nib gibbleticity grokkle  |\  /|
| >< |  gref niggrel jippetti atari esstee ee linuxitus unicitus gick  | >< |
|/  \|  fragnag dribble snorkle flap flap intel pukety vomity fragno.  |/  \|
`Grave' Dave Gymer, 42 St Mary's Park, Louth, Lincolnshire, LN11 0EF, England
From: dpg@cs.nott.ac.uk (Dave `geek' Gymer)
Newsgroups: alt.galactic-guide
Subject: Re: Getting AmiGuide to work?
Date: 27 Jan 93 10:40:00 GMT
Organization: Nottingham University

In article <1k37ltINNdtu@emmental.csv.warwick.ac.uk> phudl@csv.warwick.ac.uk (Mr S J Liddicott) writes:
>There is a shareware PC Jpeg program available from THE SOFTWARE LABS
>Overland Drive (somewhere Clifornia) etc.... well what I'm saying is
>is the concept ok?  they reckon 1 MEG pictures can go down to 69K
>Seems good to me...

Better still the JPEG group themselves produce a free compression &
decompression library with DOS and Unix support.

Whilst the `lossyness' of JPEG is usually acceptable, I've
occaisionally found pictures which have little green dots in them; not
noticable until you look closely, but then very annoying.  Compression
ratios on digitized images are very impressive; I have seen 1 meg go
down to about 70k, but that's exceptional; normally, I expect about
500k to 80k or so.

-- Dave
-- 
`Grave' Dave Gymer |  ##########>  ____/##\____   Are you as spaced out as  /
42 St Mary's Park  |       __\ \_______/ /        these guys?              /
Louth, Lincs       |       \____________/                                 /
LN11 0EF, England  | ____________________________________________________/
From: "tobias b koehler" <UKJP@DKAUNI2.BITNET>
Newsgroups: alt.galactic-guide
Subject: Re: ISO Code, bold, italic ....
Date: 22 Jan 1993 13:49:55 +0100
Organization: University of Karlsruhe, Germany
Distribution: world



> From: kv07@IASTATE.EDU (Warren Vonroeschlaub)
>
>   Sure, the extended characters can be abbreviated as multi letter combination
> the toggle could be some sort of combine command.  Like \coe\c would mean to
> combine the oe into an o-umlaut.  If the system doesn't have the character tha
> combination corresponds to, it just ignores it and you get the standard
> approximation "oe".

Wait a minute. If you use that system you can't distinguish any more
between the (swedish, german) "o with two dots", the (norwegian,
danish) "o with slash" and the (french) "oe ligature".
If we use Warren's system, these three characters can be desribed
as \c"o\c, \c/o\c and \coe\c; that would allow to distinguish between
them.

All these three characters are in the ISO 8859.1 charset.

The only reason that I would see for NOT using an 8-bit character
set is that the 8th bit is stripped when sending an article by e-mail.

In the IBM character set 437 (used by most MS-DOS systems) there is
only the "o with two dots". The "o with slash" can be converted into
this one, the "oe ligature" would then be converted into "oe".

>   Note that the display program doesn't even have to worry about this.  The
> update program would be the one going through replacing "combination"
> characters.  The display programs wouldn't have to be changed at all.

Right. So we just have to decide if we want to have (a) an 8-bit input
format, or (b) 7-bit format with combinations described as above.

Regards

-=- tobi -=-
Newsgroups: alt.galactic-guide
From: rahayden@news.weeg.uiowa.edu (R Andrew Hayden)
Subject: Re: TG! for DOS -- new version 1.10, 01/26/93
Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 23:56:11 GMT


I would SERIOUSLY recommend against using the new PKZip program.  That
program has more bugs than a baitshop.  From what I have read in
comp.compression and experienced for myself, the advanced memory features
of 2.04c cause many computers to crash, espicially when running in Windoze
or OS/2.

General concensus is that the new PKZip is "lousy" and until they actually
do some sort of beta-testing on the product, it is recommended that it not
be used.

I personally recommend using .ARJ, which provides compressions fairly
close to the new PKZip.  While it isn't quite as fast, it is, in my
experience, bug-free (nothing is truly bug-free, but i've never found any).

PLEASE!!!  Do not archive future versions with the new PKZip.  If you wish
to use .ZIP format, use 1.1.  2.04c will decompress 1.1, but 1.1 will not
decompress 2.04c.

-- 
]> Robert Hayden                     <] [> This .signature has been made <]
]>                                   <] [> with 85% recycled pixels.     <]
]>    rahayden@umaxc.weeg.uiowa.edu  <] 
]>    aq650@slc4.INS.CWRU.Edu        <] 
Newsgroups: alt.galactic-guide
From: pcxkrm@unicorn.nott.ac.uk (K.R.Marshall)
Subject: Re: Graphic format
Organization: Cripps Computing Centre, University of Nottingham
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 13:27:48 GMT

In article <1993Jan26.123239.9166@cs.nott.ac.uk> dpg@cs.nott.ac.uk (Dave `geek' Gymer) writes:
>In article <1993Jan25.165552.3741@cs.nott.ac.uk> pcxkrm@unicorn.nott.ac.uk (K.R.Marshall) writes:
>[IFF mentioned in other quoted article]
>>As for a graphics format, I guess GIF is slightly more appropriate,
>>but I'm really not looking forward to dealing with them! - maybe we
>>should just forget about graphics for the moment. (Not that I don't
>>want to have to deal with them or anything!)
>
>Depending on the sort of images we're talking about, JPEG would get my
>vote, since it's more `standard' in some wierd sort of way, and the
>compression is vastly better for digitized images.  For other types of
>images, I'd say PPM and compress or zip (since the GNU folks now have
>a Zip type program) would be a safer `lowest common denominator'
>format.
>
>-- Dave

To be honest - I'm going to have _real_ problems dealing with any form
of bit-mapped colour graphics on the Atari, as people will want to use
the higher resolutions for reading, and these only provide 4 or 2
colours! Even the lowest res allows only 16 colours on-screen, and I
really don't want to get into complicated dithering techniques, so I
think everyone should be aware that a graphics standard might limit
the systems for which the guide is workable. (Mind you, if it's only
the Atari that's the problem everyone might just turn around and say
"so what?" - but I don't think this is a healthy attitude!)

Some kind of vector graphic system might be better - but this wouldn't
allow any nice scanned images etc.

Keith.

As an aside, Dave - had you noticed that we're in the same place?!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Mummy was an asteroid, Daddy was             | Keith Marshall
a small, non-stick kitchen utensil..."        | pcxkrm@unicorn.nott.ac.uk
Newsgroups: alt.galactic-guide
From: kv07@IASTATE.EDU (Warren Vonroeschlaub)
Subject: Re: Getting AmiGuide to work?
Reply-To: kv07@IASTATE.EDU (Warren Vonroeschlaub)
Organization: Ministry of Silly Walks
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 17:29:18 GMT

In article <1k37ltINNdtu@emmental.csv.warwick.ac.uk>, phudl@csv.warwick.ac.uk
(Mr S J Liddicott) writes:
> I suggest using JPEG compression.  It's supposed to give massive saivings
> (but it is NOT an altogther lossless method)

  That wouldn't be the worry so much as display time.  A full color 640x480
image in GIF displays in about 4 seconds on my 386/33.  A JPEG the same size,
even with a single pass, takes about 20 seconds.

  Now granted a JPEg gives 24 bit color and a GIF can only do 256 colors, but
for me the color difference in a JPEG doesn't make up for the considerable extra
time spent decoding.  Don't forget that unless you have a 24 bit display the
JPEG needs to be scanned twice to decide which colors the pallette should have.

  The are a number of ANSI-C sources available for reading and writing GIFs, and
they add only 1 or 2 K to the program.  JPEG compression can get pretty nasty if
the program isn't dedicated to displaying it.

 |  __L__
-|-  ___  Warren Kurt vonRoeschlaub
 |  | o | kv07@iastate.edu
 |/ `---' Iowa State University
/|   ___  Math Department
 |  |___| 400 Carver Hall
 |  |___| Ames, IA  50011
 J  _____
Newsgroups: alt.galactic-guide
From: cleggp@aix.rpi.edu (Paul Jason Clegg)
Subject: Re: The Real HHGGTTG..
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 16:03:53 GMT

In article <7779@sersun1.essex.ac.uk> shepa@sersun1 (Shepherd A J) writes:
>This is the text of a letter I have been asked to post. No spelling or
>caps flames please, I did not write this. This posting is a text file as
>I received it. Share and enjoy...
>
>David Hodges
>68 Gotch Road 
>Barton Seagrave
>Kettering
>Northamptonshire 
>NN15 6UQ
>ENGLAND

>The next convention where I hope to be a major attraction will 
>be VOCON (SEPT-OCT 93 IN THE SOUTH OF ENGLAND )It is a con 
>covering all of the work of DOUGLAS ADAMS- if you want details
>of this con or ZZ9 PLURAL Z ALPHA (THE HITCH-HIKERS APPRECIATION 
>SOCIETY) or my GUIDE please write to me at the above address.

Are there any European hitchhikers who might be going to this convention?
I've only been personally to a gaming convention, so I really don't have
any idea how these types of conventions work out.  I'm wondering if Douglas
Adams is going to be there, and if we might be able to corner him and get
an answer on whether or not Project Galactic Guide is legal or not.

Anyone care to investigate?  I'm on the otherside of the pond, and broke
as it is, so there's zero possibility of me getting over there personally,
but perhaps an enthusiastic European hitchhiker (or a really dedicated
non-European hitchhiker) would like to see if DA's going to be there, and
be the official "Envoy of Peace and No Lawsuits Please?" ?

There was an article accepted to PGG, BTW, that details the Atari guide...
Look up "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, The Real" or something like
that...

...Paul


-- 
+                +        +    +  + + +  +    +        +                +
      Paul Clegg, cleggp@rpi.edu.   Send me your Guide Articles! 
         System One RPG designer.   Project Galactic Guide Coordinator.
+                +        +    +  + + +  +    +        +                +
From: cleggp@aix.rpi.edu (Paul Jason Clegg)
Newsgroups: alt.galactic-guide
Subject: Re: Graphics for PGG (was Re: Getting AmiGuide to work?)
Date: 27 Jan 93 17:17:54 GMT
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY

In article <1k69aeINN9t@klaus.physchem.chemie.uni-tuebingen.de> andreas@atlas.physchem.chemie.uni-tuebingen.de (Andreas Haug) writes:
>cleggp@aix.rpi.edu (Paul Jason Clegg) writes:
>>And, since we're going to need a specific front-
>>end program to display the graphics anyway, perhaps we should do something a
>>little non-standard, perhaps use Bitmaps compressed with, perhaps, ZIP comp=
>>ression...
>
>please! Just say no! There are several packages available - in source - to
>decode gif/jpeg/whatever. If we use our own coding, we have to do it all out-
>selves. I think we could use GIF _and_ JPEG. One of those is suitable for
>almost any picture.
>

Well, I wasn't talking about using our own GRAPHICS encoding, or even our
own COMPREESION algorithms; I was thinking of using something like, perhaps,
Windows .BMP encoding, and, perhaps, GNU's ZIP compression.  I WAS just using
that as an example anyway, just trying to make the point that we can use TWO
different things to acheive the same (hopefully better) result than a single
technique.

Perhaps .ARJ .TIFF files?  Maybe .LZH .GIF files?  How about .ZOO'd .PCX?

...Paul


-- 
+                +        +    +  + + +  +    +        +                +
      Paul Clegg, cleggp@rpi.edu.   Send me your Guide Articles! 
         System One RPG designer.   Project Galactic Guide Coordinator.
+                +        +    +  + + +  +    +        +                +
Newsgroups: alt.galactic-guide
From: cleggp@rebecca.its.rpi.edu (Paul Jason Clegg)
Subject: Re: Newbie questions
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 16:00:41 GMT

In article <1jlcguINNnrl@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> ko_mike@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Michael Y Ko) writes:
>
>Are there are new entries for The Guide! yet? I've only seen two files
>with dates as their names and the working file. Anything else?
>

Hey, each of those files contains 25 entries!  Also, the WORKING.NEW file 
contains entries (ie more than one), but the sum total of that file isn't
yet 25, which is why it doesn't have a date on it...

...Paul


-- 
+                +        +    +  + + +  +    +        +                +
      Paul Clegg, cleggp@rpi.edu.   Send me your Guide Articles! 
         System One RPG designer.   Project Galactic Guide Coordinator.
+                +        +    +  + + +  +    +        +                +
Newsgroups: alt.galactic-guide