From: keb3_ss@uhura.cc.rochester.edu (Karin E. Baker)
Subject: Re: Fundamentalist Nightmare
Organization: University of Rochester - Rochester, New York
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 92 05:47:17 GMT


Some days I don't know why I write.. but as I jump into this, I  sigh, and 
prepare for discussion..


In <1992Nov1.181438.5506@wam.umd.edu> aap@wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:

>In article <adams.720505778@spssig> adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes:
>>
>>>While blacks were seen as less than human in order to use them as slaves,
>>>Gays are seem as less than human because of a different problem.

>>So what?  It doesn't matter one whit *why* people see them as 'less than
>>human!'  The origins of discrimination are unimportant.
>>

>I guess that this is my last input on this. You are just taking things as 
>facts and not trying to analyze them.
>If there is a diseas, you should know what causes it in order to find a 
>cure.


Uh.. let's step back a moment in your logic, if we may, so I can understand 
your point of view (although I think I do.. it's always safe to ask some 
basic fundamental (pardon the pun) questions...)

(A) What exactly are we calling a disease here that needs to be cured?

Could you be possibly so ignorant as to be referring to homosexuality as a 
disease?  

Hmm.. now that's a puzzle. Well let's start with the basics.  How do 
people normally acquire a disease.. ?  Basic logic says from someone else,
or some other living organism.

I wonder if there are fleas running around carrying the homosexuality disease?

Let's think genetics.. hmm.. both my parents were heterosexual (still 
are, to the best of my knowledge and their spouses' knowledge..) so I 
didn't get it from them.  

I didn't know any gay people besides my cousin who I hadn't seen in years
when I discovered my homosexuality.. did I catch it from him?  Are there 
different germs for male homosexuality and female homosexuality?  (I think 
there must be since our hypothallimus' are different sizes!).. so if 
I caught anything from him, wouldn't it have to be heterosexuality since 
he's attracted to men? 

Hmm..

(B) Is differentiation in quantitative amounts of pigment a disease?

In other words, if someone isn't white, could that mean they are diseased?

(C) Is a lack of penis, or growth of breast tissue a disease?

Well.. I guess for some people (thought to be male gendered originally) this 
indeed could be.. hmm..



>>So, you've admitted that there is an ideological basis for discrimination
>>against homosexuals, and that it is different than the basis for
>>discrimination against blacks.  So why is it wrong to discriminate against
>>blacks and OK to discriminate against homosexauls?  Neither of them had
>>much of a choice!
>>
>>The root cause of discrimination is irrelevant to the issue.

>It might be irrelavant to you, but if you want to change it, you should 
>know what causes it.

If I want to change it, I should know what causes it.. 

I think you're referring to discrimination here, not homosexuality, because
frankly, I don't have any desire to change it.. so I guess a part of me 
doesn't really care what caused it.. but back to your original point.

What causes discrimination of any kind, whether it be in terms of race, gender,
size, religion, sexual orientation, green noses, etc., is real basic: fear!

Fear pretty much stems out of ignorance.  

If you know the spider won't bite you, or if it does, it won't hurt you, it's
easier to not be afraid of it.  (Usually, though with spiders, it takes awhile
to believe it's true.. unfortunately, often the same holds true for human 
beings).

So fear causes discrimination, and ignorance causes fear.  How do we combat 
this.. 

Education..

Which is really why I am responding to this message.. not because I don't 
understand what you've written.. I understand it all too clearly..


>Now, why people supports antidiscrimination laws for race, gender and 
>religion and not for Gays?
>well, I guess that for you this is just a mattter of choice. 

Well.. let's look at this for a moment.. 

I think we've pretty much ruled out the possibility that a spider came up 
and bit me and gave me the homosexuality disease.. so let's look at another 
scenario..

Picture this, if you'll allow me..:  A seventeen year old woman, in high
school.. junior year.. dating a really nice guy.. wakes up one morning, 
looks in the mirror and says this: "You know.. life is going pretty 
well for you right now.. what should we do about this?  I've got it.. 
let's become a homosexual.. I think I want to be part of an oppressed,
hated, and discrimitated against people.  Being a white woman is just 
going too well for me.. and since I can't change my color, let's just 
be gay, instead."

If you really believe I had that conversation with myself, you're mistaken.

Instead, I realized who I was.

You are right.. though.. there is a choice.  It's a choice every human
being, no matter what their race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, or 
nose color, should make. 

I chose to accept myself for who I am.  I chose to love myself.  


>However, if you look at the roots of each case, it would be more clear.
>This country was founded by people that escaped religious persecution. And,
>still today, it is a highly religious country. So, religion is seen as\

Is it so highly religious?  Yes, there are many vocal people out there (such
as Pat Robertson), but if you consider religious to be following the doctrine
of the church, how many people attend church on a regular basis outside of 
Easter and Christmas who declare themselves Christians?  How many Jews attend
temple every Friday, or observe the Sabbath? 

Quantitatively, probably not as many as you think...

And if you polled those that do.. you'd be surprised how many of them *are*
accepting of homosexuality, and recognize it is not a choice.


>comething that has to be protected. After all, have there been 

Religion should be protected.. hmm.. what happened to separation of state
and church?  Wasn't that because the Anglican church was so protected?  And
why did the protestant branches branch off?  Could it be because the Catholic
church was so protective?  

If you believe in "God" or a god (be it Allah, or whomever you wish to name
or believe in..), won't s/he/it protect religion?

Just a few questions..

>antidiscrimination laws in England, there would not be USA.
>Gender and race were discriminated against on an economical basis. That is,

Gender and race were not solely discriminated upon for economical reasons.. 
have you ever taken a history class?  Economy played in it.. but that wasn't
all.. it was fear.. Fear of a woman being as powerful or more powerful than
 a man, and it was fear of people of color having as much power or more than 
whites.  Don't mean to blow your bubble.. but economy isn't everything.. if 
it were, then blacks would have been immediately warmly accepted into society
when the emancipation proclamation freed them from being a commodity!


>women have been exploited since ever, and blacks were brought here as 
>slaves. Then, after a long fight, discrimination on an economical basis
>of women and blacks (and other racial minorities), has been condemn.

It has not been condemned.  A woman working twice as long, who is twice
as good as her male counterpart, still get's paid between 50 and 60 cents
to his dollor!  It still goes on.. it's just not "politically correct"..


>However, those are not the reasons why homosexuals have been condemn in
>history. Whether you like it or not. So, the social perception of Gays is
>not the same as the social perception of the other minorities, nor are
>the reasons why they are discriminated against the same.

We may not be perceived as the same as other minorities.. but that's because
gay people are just like you.  It is difficult to perceive gays from other
human beings.. 

You are, probably, though referring to the stereotypical "fag" or "dyke".

A lesbian friend of mine related a story to me about her RA (Resident Advisor),
who was telling a group of people in which she was included about how 
she could spot them.. how ironic it was, then, that she didn't spot the woman
standing right next to her..

Next time you throw out a lot of homophobic comments in a room you think is
"queer-free" don't be so sure... we are everywhere.. we are your sons and 
daughters, your co-workers, your doctors, your fast-food workers, your 
graduate students, your professors.. you  can't pick us out.. it's not that 
easy.  A few of us make ourselves visible.. but the reason you can "spot"
us, is we let you.. not that we carry some huge sign on our foreheads..



>For a lot of people, homosexuality is just and abomination against their
>god. For others, it is nothing mora than a behavior. For others, it is

You know.. I don't know about your god, but mine came down and gave us 
some basic tenements to live by.  Jesus, particularly, preached about love
thy neighbor.  I don't think he attached any provisions to it.  Given how 
he treated and respected Mary Magdeline, if Jesus were to meet a homosexual,
I think he would treat us with as much respect as he treated the woman 
who held him up when he was taken off of the cross!  Maybe you should try 
the same respect..

Being homosexual is not a "behavior."  Again, sorry to dispute you.  If it 
is please let me know, along with the definition of gay "lifestyle."  If 
you mean holding down a job, feeding a family, being a student, falling 
in love, getting married, being a priest (some of the "lifestyles" I and 
those in our gay community live..).. then you're hitting the head on the 
nail.. 

If you mean being sexually promiscious.. look at the spectrum of heterosexuality, 
and how that manefests itself.. homosexuality is no different..


>just a psychological disorder. And there are even more views about it.

And gees, I thought the American Psychiatry Association said that homosexuality
wasn't a mental illness.  In fact, most licensed psychiatrists I know and 
work with, say that the biggest problem they find homosexuals to have is 
difficulting dealing with people who are as ignorant as you.  In fact one
gentleman I spoke with told aside that he has found his homosexual patients
to be on the whole overall much better able to cope then his heterosexual 
patients.. As a heterosexual man, I think he was a little upset about this
since he would probably never have the coping abilities of a homosexual.. (I 
assured him he could pick them up.. <smile!>)



>So, it does not get into the idea of those who have to be protected for
>a lot of people. 

500,000,000 probably isn't a lot of people.. you're right.. how silly of 
us.. (and that's a low estimation..for just the US)



>I have heard people say: We do not protect alcoholics or drug users, why
>should be protect Gays?

While I disagree with the categorization of gays with alcoholics and drug 
users (although some of us do belong in these categories since addictions do
not seem to discriminate!), I do think we protect alcoholics or drug users..
most hospitals run re-hab programs and society has created supportive 
organizations such as Narcotics Anonymous, and Alcoholics Anonymous..



>And the same with analogies with pedophiles, serial killers, etc.
>So, there is your problem.

No.. there's your problem.  Since when does loving someone become to related
to abuse, whether it be substance abuse, sexual abuse, or physical abuse?  
What happens between two consenting adults has nothing whatseover to do 
with what happens behind Board Room doors.  Or at least it shouldn't!

How I live my life outside of my job, with whom I choose to raise a family 
with should have nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not I can 
have a home, or buy a car.. 

It's like someone telling you that if you marry your wife, well.. we don't 
really like her, so if you marry her, if you love her, well we won't 
give you this job, and you can't have your home.  Sounds kind of 
preposterous, doesn't it?  I think so..


>Now, for a long time, I have read here Gays saying that there is no need
>to know which are the roots that make them Gay. 

Hasn't stopped people from looking.. but I personally don't think it's 
necessary to know why I am gay.  It's kind of like asking why the sky is 
blue.  Even if I find out why it is blue, it isn't going to change the fact
that the sky is blue (although here in Rochester New York, it usually 
exists in dulling shades of grey. .. but you get the idea..)

So, personally, I don't really feel a need to waste my time with why
the sky is blue.  Someone else will.  And when they find the answer,
or they discover gravity, or realize we are not the center of the Universe, 
then the Galileos and the Newtons can let me know.


>As long as they believe it, the other people will believe whatever
>they want and Gays will always find opposition for their claims.

Everyone will always find opposition for everything.  Does that mean you 
stop?  Boy.. maybe that's why Bush never balanced the budget.. he probably 
used logic like that!


>>>My goal is not to make it illegal but to make it dissapear (discrimination).
>>A fine, laudable goal.  But are you suggesting that gays just 'take it'
>>until you solve the problem?  

>I am not suggesting anything. And, I do not plan to solve anything either.

Optimistic!

>>And if discrimination against blacks hasn't
>>been wiped out after 100 years, what makes you think you'll change public
>>opinion on this quickly?  Just how long do gay men and lesbians have to
>>wait to be afforded equal protection under the laws?

>Basically, I do not believe that anyone has ever tried in 
>a serious way to change "public opinion" about blacks, and that there
>is the real problem.


Boy, why don't you slap Coretta King in the face!  Are you trying to say 
that her husband died for nothing?  That he wasn't trying seriously to 
change public opinion?  Or Malcolm X, or United Negro College Fund, or 
NAACP, or any everyday person of color who lives in this country day in 
and day out?  Maybe they don't try every day to impress Joe Schmoe 
white person that they should be taken seriously, but then again, they 
shouldn't have to!


>>
>> -Steve


>AAP

The times are changing my friend.  And maybe not in our generation, but 
some day, people will be beyond this basic hatred and fear.  Sadly enough 
though, it will never end.  Even when homophobia begins to dissapate, there
are still enough fears to keep hatred going.. 

I have a dream.  My dream is of a day when we will take each other, and look 
each other for what we are: individual, unique, and beautiful human beings!
And maybe.. just maybe.. we'll love each other for those precious gifts!

In peace,
-- 
--Karin
keb3_ss@uhura.cc.rochester.edu

Newsgroups: alt.atheism,alt.sci.physics.new-theories