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Date:         Sat, 22 Aug 1992 19:16:30 -0400
From:         DCC@VASSAR.BITNET
Subject:      Platforms (Political Type)

Would any of my brothers and sisters know where I could get a downloadable
copy of both the Democratic and Republican party platforms?  It would be
a great help!  Please reply privately.  Thanks!


Scott <><
DCC@VASSAR.BITNET

P.S.  I did happen to find a copy of the Libertarian Pary platform via
anonymous ftp from think.com.
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Date:         Sun, 23 Aug 1992 03:12:37 EDT
From:         Marty Helgesen <MNHCC@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Biblical meaning of church

Kerry,

You say, "It seems to me that the church began at Pentecost, and that
Jesus existed before that (even from the beginning of the beginning!)
So, to elevate the teachings of a church (*the* church or *any*
church) over the words and teachings of Christ would be a rather
dicey proposition, insofar as the only authority Christ Himself
grants to the church appears to be disciplinary (and, as I read
it, the discipline is for those who are in rebellion from *God*,
not from the church itself.)  Someone said that Christ required the
church to (correct me if I'm misinterpreting what was said)
enable Christ to forgive our sins.  I don't see how this can be
the case if Christ died before the church existed and if
the Plan was in effect even before that."

I agree that the Church began at Pentecost.  I also agree that no
teachings of any church should be elevated over the words and teach-
ings of Christ.  In a post answering your questions about St. Peter I
discussed that authority Jesus gave to His Church.  Here I will add
that St. Paul described the church of the living God as the pillar
and ground of truth (1 Tim 3:15).  The Church has more than discipli-
nary authority.

I did not see any mention of Christ requiring the church to enable
Him to forgive sins, which doesn't prove someone didn't post it.  I
disagree with the statement as you repeat it.  I believe that Christ
has chosen to use the Church as a means of His forgiveness, but He
did not have to arrange it that way.

Marty Helgesen
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Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 09:51:00 EST
From:         "DRCV06::GRAHAM" <GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL>
Subject:      Downsides, backsides and anathemas.
X-To:         christia <christia@asuvm.inre.asu.edu>

Mr. Keefer brings up several interesting points that I'd like to address
very briefly.

First, I believe in no church government at all save for the local
congregation.  This saves a lot of trouble.  Our church has no creed save
for the Bible and accept no church council of past ages as authoritative.
So, we could easily accept into fellowship a man with six wives, of a lady
with six husbands, for that matter, since those arrangements are not
forbidden in the Bible.  What IS forbidden is to ordain a man to be an
elder or a deacon who has more than one wife, so we wouldn't do that.

We accept Paul's writings as the definer of everything else because of what
he says in the first chapter of Galatians about those disagreeing with his
gospel being anathema.  He did not mean they were to be excommunicated and
thereafter treated as people to be won back, he meant they were to be
damned.  This becomes clear when the entire passage is read for he not only
includes outsiders, but angels and even himself in the curse.  No, Paul is
setting up a secnerio here that is hard to live with, I admit.  It says
that you either accept him as the last word, or reject him totally.  I
accept this, but don't particularly like it.

The problems James describes with the Anglican church are thpical of an
organized denomination.  They would not exist to that extent if there were
no organizations but only local churches.   If our pastor came out and said
he didn't believe in the resurrection, he'd not get another paycheck.  If,
however, he wanted to spend a month studying Job and its history and
historical context, we'd welcome such a challange.  We aren't afraid of
questions or doubts.

Look at it this way:  Organizations begin as idealistic bodies with
committed people and ideals.  As they grow, they take on a life of their
own and begin to exist to perpetuate their own existance, forgetting their
original mission and reason for being.  They begin to become inflexible
because they perceive that flexing will weaken them, and that cannot be
allowed.  Look at the hubbub at Jerusalem at that first so called council
to see how soon this began to hapen in the Jerusalem church.  Even at the
local level this can occur, and must be guarded against.

Dan Graham
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Date:         Mon, 31 Aug 1992 03:53:41 -0700
From:         Frank Bechhaus <bechhaus@LUCKY.LION.DE>
Subject:      Jesus speaks

Robert Montana wrote on Thu, 27 Aug 1992 10:05:37:

> Frank, I can't tell exactly where you are coming from based on
> the few scriptures you quote...

Hello Bob,

perhaps I should have told that in my first posted article. :-) But,
better late than never...  In short: I am 24 years old, student of
computer science, Christian since 9 years, going to a Baptist church
and would consider myself as being "mildly" charismatic. Or, even
shorter: <>< \o/ :-)

> Undoubtedly, but doesn't that mean there will no true prophets?
> I believe the scriptures give us guidelines to discern prophesy
> and part of that discernment is that we do not have acknowledge the
> prophet, but to weigh the text of the prophesy.

I fully agree with you. Yes, I believe (and have witnessed), that
people still received the gift of prophecy, and I consider this to
be a very valuable gift for the body of Christ. But, according to
1 Corinthians 14, it is important that any prophecy must be tested
carefully. One very important test for me is that is must not con-
tradict scripture. ("For the word of God is quick, and powerful,
and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing
asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a
discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." Heb 4:12)

> Now it could be that God is consistently working through a particular
> person with the prophetic gift, and after much discernment by the
> community and leaders, be acknowledged as having a prophetic ministry,
> i.e. a prophet.

Agreed. And I think this is an important ministry for a community.

> Isn't that incredible that our God wishes to talk to us, lowly creatures
> that we might be?

I'm amazed by this each day anew... :-)

> There was no explicit mandate by Jesus that Gospels be written, that
> certain of Paul's letters be passed on as Sacred Scripture.  The
> Apostle John even suggests that the world could not contain every-
> thing that Jesus did (Jn 21:25).

"Jesus is the same yesterday, today and for ever" Heb 13:8  Although
the account of the Gospels (obviously) doesn't contain everything
Jesus did, I wouldn't expect that his other words and actions contra-
dict what is written down.

Frank


      >> The next time the devil reminds you of your past <<
      >>         REMIND HIM OF HIS FUTURE !     Rev 20:10 <<
From: BSCURR01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU (David White)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Baby Sarah (Prayer Request)
Date: 26 Aug 92 00:49:49 GMT
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Greetings folks,

Just wanted to pass on some news.  We took Sarah to the hospital today for her
check-up.  Brenda mentioned to the doctor that Sarah had a white dot in the
center of each pupil which we had noticed.  The doctor has refered us to a
pediatric opthamologist.  We have an appointment for Sept. 3.

The doctor said it could be something normal left over from being in utero.
She also said it could be cataract.  We are hoping it is something normal which
will go away naturally or at worst with medication.  It is hard to accept that
Sarah may have a physical problem.  Pray that if it is something serious, we
will have the strength to accept God's plan.

                                      David
P.S.  Still Nomail.
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Date:         Thu, 3 Sep 1992 20:53:20 CDT
From:         THERESA BLACKWELL <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
Subject:      MADGE....

  Madge... one of my friends' friends.... is
havin' trouble gettin' onto Christia list...
  Her name is Michele Lofton.  She's subscribed
twice within the past 20 minutes.
  Can ya tell me what I need to do so she can get
involved in this great list...
 somethin' tells her she needs a Bitnet alias...
 Set me straight.....
 God Loves ya, and so do I!
 Theresa L. Blackwell
 "G" / "G FORCE"

 * <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
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Date:         Tue, 1 Sep 1992 13:24:00 EST
From:         "DRCV06::GRAHAM" <GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL>
Subject:      Unrepentant Jews and Sodom.
X-To:         christia <christia@asuvm.inre.asu.edu>

Leo,

I don't think so.  Jesus didn't come to save all the Jews, only the elect
ones.  Those who were unrepentant were so because God didn't choose to save
them, just like those in Sodom.  In John 17:2, Jesus, in His prayer to the
Father, says that He was given power ofer all men so He could save those
that had been given Him.  The Sodomites were destroyed so that Lot and his
daughters could be saved, and the many Jews of Jesus' time who didn't
accept Him were / will be destroyed so that the elect among them could be
saved.

You are correct that all must choose, but only those whom God has first
enabled have the ability to choose ... but we've dealt with this before.

Dan Graham
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Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 09:53:12 EDT
From:         John R Laplante <jlaplant@MAGNUS.ACS.OHIO-STATE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: On-Line Bible: NASB availabl
              "Joseph_I.Scully" at Sep 3, 92 11:59 pm

>
> John La Plante:
>
> I'm interested in getting the on-line Bible that you mentioned down-
> loading from an archive, but I don't understand how to do it. Is it fairly
> easy to do? I'd appreciate any help you could give.
>
> In Christ,
>
> Joe Scully
>

Joe -- I believe there have been discussions of a program called the "on-line
bible." I'm getting ready for a weekend trip, and don't have the time to
tell you more about it. Sorry.

If you want a copy of the NAS bible, you must contact the Lockman
Foundation, as they do not release the text to to the "on-line bible"
program or to anyone else. They have their own computer program with
the NAS text.

Can someone else please give a description of FTP procedures?
 If you can't get throughh to the wuarchive, try this site,
at Oakland University (michigan): 141.210.10.117
It is one of many "mirror" sites which has the same information
as the wuarchive, and is usually less busy.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
john r la plante                    calling from the Ohio State University
jlaplant@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu  political analysis done while you wait
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Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 10:58:58 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Pat Robertson and feminism
              27 Aug 1992 14:15:30 GMT from <jrussell@UNLINFO.UNL.EDU>

John:

Sorry to burst your bubble, but if Robertson means *radical* feminism,
he is right on the money.  (I used to be one; I should know.)

Love INC,
         --Kerry
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Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 15:24:00 EST
From:         "David J. Moreau" <DMOREAU@DRUNIVAC.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Peter and James

Marty wrote:

>Very little is said about St. James, but a lot is said about St.
>Peter, both in the Bible and in the writings of the Church Fathers.

The writings of your 'church fathers' have no influence on me, for I
do not believe that there is any reason to believe that they were
inpired writings guided by God.

  As for your contention that the # of times an apostle is mentioned
is someone equivalent to the authority he is given:

>In a previous posting I mentioned the prominence of St. Peter in the
>Gospels.

You then chose to enumerate the occurences of various names, and the
ways to refer to Apostle Peter.  Concordances are wonderful, but your
argument doesn't make sence to me.  I understand why you are lead to
feel the way you do, but you are interpreting the Bible based on
statististics!  We should stick to what the words SAY instead of
counting occurances.  The Bible does not say Peter was the overall
administrator.  When James made the decision in Acts 15:19, the word
he used (according to strong's) means conclude, decree, determine,
judge, sentence to, etc.  While you may contend that is was merely an
opinion, this one verse is more support for Apostle James than you
can give for Apostle Peter.

>In addition to the Biblical texts I have quoted, there are the writ-
>ings of the Church Fathers.  Early Christians, frequently refer to
>the Bishop of Rome as the Successor of St. Peter.  There are few if
>any references to the Bishop of Jerusalem as the successor of St.
>James.  To give just one example, St. Jerome wrote in a letter to
>Pope Damascus:

Those whom you call the Church Fathers do not have the authority to
create the doctrines that they created.  They may be the Fathers of
your Church, but not mine.

>Marty Helgesen

David M.
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Date:         Mon, 31 Aug 1992 12:24:53 CST
From:         A16905@ITESO.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Prayer

Yes, Jason, but this is not limiting your prayer, of course you can (ans
should) pray for all of theese and more. This is just an effort to be
united in our prayer and to prayy all the listmembers that want to
for somethiong in common. The Lord instructed us to do so.

Shalom,
Memo.
PS If you don't want to, don't pray with us.
PPS  Voting : 1:0  2:0  3:0
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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 13:01:33 -0500
From:         Jason Briggs Cormier <CORJB@RHODES.BITNET>
Subject:      Prayer Request

Hey folks,

Everyone has heard about Andrew, our lovely storm blown in from the
Gulf.

Well, it has passed right next to my hometown in south Louisiana.
I don't really know how anyone is there and won't find out until
this weekend.

Please pray for the people down there.  I am not really concerned
for my family because God's hand is mightier than any storm and He
protects his children(I am living proof), but I am concerned about
others and damages and the like.

Thanks,

Jason
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Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 06:19:09 EDT
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      Plays as a youth project

As a suggestion for a fund-raising activity for Christian youth,
Bernice writes:

 > Or a biblical play charging admission. Two things accomplished.
 > They would have to study their parts.

Let me call your attention to the plays by Dorothy L Sayers dealing
with the life of Christ. The first was a Nativity play, HE THAT
SHOULD COME.  Given the success of this, she was commissioned to
write twelve more, covering the life of Christ. These twelve are
known collectively as THE MAN BORN TO BE KING. All of them were
originally written in the early 1940's as radio plays, but Sayers
successfully adapted the first for stage production, and similarly
adapting the others would be possible. You could do them as readings
on a bare stage, or aim at something a little more theatrical,
depending on the time and other resources you and your cast have
available. One play a week would nicely fill a term. If you do not
start immediately this fall, you might spread them over the interval
from Christmas to Easter (11 April 1993). Rehearsing a play,
producing a play, discussing the significance of the play -- this
would definitely accomplish more than just raising the money.

I am not sure what copyright problems you would face. Perhaps you
could inquire of MacMillan, who I believe is the American publisher.

 Yours,
 James Kiefer
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Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 08:35:57 EDT
From:         Lon Mendelsohn <LMENDELS@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Weslyan holyness
X-To:         Practical Christian Life <CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU>
              1 Sep 1992 12:00:45 -0700 from <DRAKE@ASUCHM.LA.ASU.EDU>

Mark,

The Wesleyan (as in John Wesley) Holiness folks are sort of an offshoot
of the Methodists.  They believe in a second experience of grace (similar
to the infilling/baptism of the Holy Spirit taught by many pentecostals
and charismatics).  This second experience, often referred to as sancti-
fication, empowers the recipient to live a holy life.  If you examine
the history of pentecostalism, you will find that many of the early
pentecostals came out of the holiness movement.

Please note that this description includes no evaluation of biblical
correctness of this movement.  I leave that aspect of the matter in
your hands.

Shalom,

Lon Mendelsohn
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
From: 75furlong@cua.edu
Subject: Re: homosexuality
Organization: The Catholic University of America
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 15:05:28 GMT

Thanks, Ann, for your post.

In article <BtwL5z.4FB@news.larc.nasa.gov>, carlson@ab24.larc.nasa.gov (Ann Carlson) writes:
> talk to Integrity (Episcopal), Dignity (Roman Catholic),
> More Light (Presbyterian), Affirmation (Methodist?) and other 
> Christian groups who believe that the Bible does not condemn gays
> and lesbians or their relationships.  Find out why they believe as
> they do, they have good reasons.

Along these lines, I thought this might be of interest. It is a repost (with
permssion) from another group:

____________________________________________________________________________
Summarized from an AP report...

Nuns Criticize Vatican

The Sisters of Loretto, a Roman Catholic Order of nuns, has criticized a
Vatican document supporting discrimination against lesbigays.  The Sisters
charge the document contradicts a belief in basic human dignity and have
adopted the general assembly statement:

"It saddens us that the Vatican would enter the U.S. political arena by
encouraging a departure from the finest ideals which promote equality and
basic civil rights for everyone."

The Sisters agree with part of the Vatican's statement opposing "violent
malice" against lesbigays; however, they feel that the document "by
approving of discriminatory behavior...helps create the very climate which
fosters the violence and gay-bashing which it seeks to condemn."
____________________________________________________________________________

Unfortunately, I have very little other information on the Sisters of Loretto.
I'm planning to ask around here, and if I find anything, I'd be happy to let
people know....

-Alison

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Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 15:59:25 EST
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      Re: Forgiveness of Sins, by Priests?
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU
              at Aug 25, 92 7:57 am

I am not suprised that there was no vocal outcry..

especially with the risk of 'excommunication' or even death for people who do..


---------------------+-------------+-----------------------------------------
Ian Williams         |    _--_|\   |      Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems       |   /      \  |	  Phone	  : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia  |   \_.--*_/  |
                     |         v   |
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 3 Sep 1992 09:52:35 CDT
Comments:     Answering received message
From:         THERESA BLACKWELL <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
Subject:      Kerry....

 Dunno...
 Could I have missed something???
 (that's a big possibility!)
 OH well....
 TO the piano I go....
 God Bless!
 Theresa / "G"

 * <TBLACKWL@USMCP6.BITNET>
From: psyrobtw@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Robert Weiss)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: prolife alert: new poll figures
Date: 1 Sep 92 01:59:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <92243.182908QAA@psuvm.psu.edu>, QAA@psuvm.psu.edu (Tim Bieling) writes...

[...]

>I'll probably be on the front line - fighting to protect my rights
>from fanatics such as yourself who want to put me in an institution
>simply because I'm a gay man begging for the same rights as every
>other American Citizen (correct me if I'm wrong with that assertion).

	What rights are gay males deprived of?


 en agape,
 Bob
From: psyrobtw@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Robert Weiss)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: The Bible and Homophobia
Date: 28 Aug 92 22:32:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <CHRISTIA%92082803254075@ASUACAD.BITNET>, HUTTER@DULRUU51.BITNET (Wolfgang Hutter) writes...
>In a message of Thu, 27 Aug 1992 14:49:25 GMT
>Received on Thu, 27 Aug 92 19:45 N
>75furlong@CUA.EDU wrote:
> 
>>> ACT 15:28  For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay
>>>  upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
>>> ACT 15:29  That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from
>>>  blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which
>>>  if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
>>>
>>> Btw: I'm no Greek scholar, but I suspect that homosexuality would fall
>>> under 'fornication' in this context.
>>
>>Well, no, actually - sex outside of marriage, homosexual _or_ heterosexual, is
>>fornication. This passage makes no differentiation between homosexuality and
>>heterosexuality.
> 
>Well, since homosexual activities are outside of marriage then their
>prohibition is indeed stated in the verses I cited.

	The apostles in Acts 15 discerned that the gentiles coming 
into the church should abstain from fornication --- porneia, which is 
illicit sexual behavior. What was deemed illicit sexual behavior by 
those making this pronouncement is found in Leviticus 18. Leviticus 18 
describes homosexual sex as illicit.



 en agape,
 Bob
From: A16905@ITESO.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Re: Their Lady of Guacamole
Date: 28 Aug 92 17:12:49 GMT
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If you can, Change this Subject line on your replies. Please.

Shalom,
Memo.
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Date:         Sun, 23 Aug 1992 00:07:07 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: A production van for KWBI

Yay Molly!

Praise God!

And Amen!

Love INC,
         --Kerry
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