HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kirjner@tucker.berkeley.edu (Carlos Kirjner)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: casualties during the Intifadah
Date: 10 Oct 1992 05:18:57 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Distribution: world
Reply-To: kirjner@tucker.berkeley.edu (Carlos Kirjner)
NNTP-Posting-Host: tucker.berkeley.edu

Does any reader of this newsgroup know the number of dead since the
beginning of the Intifadah? (preferably taken from a verifiable 
source, e.g. numbers of some human rights organization reported in 
a newspaper, etc.)

I would be interested in the total number of people dead, Palestinians
and Israelis (civilian and soldiers). It would be nice if the numbers
regarding the Palestinians were given in terms of Palestinian dead in
clashes with soldiers in the territories (or in Israel), or by other 
Palestinians. 

I know this might be requiring a bit too much, but what if one starts
from 1967, how many palestinians were killed in West Bank/Gaza since
1967? And how many Israelis (disregarding the Wars of 1973 and 1982)?

Thanks in advance for any help.

Carlos Kirjner                       INTERNET: kirjner@kuhn.Berkeley.EDU
EECS UC-Berkeley                               kirjner@diva.Berkeley.EDU
Address: 207-10 Cory Hall. Dept of EECS. Univ. of California at Berkeley
         Berkeley CA 94720. USA.                   phone:+(510)-642 4257
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: naftaly@supergas.dazixco.ingr.com (Naftaly Stramer)
Subject: Hamas Coordination with the Hizbullah
Reply-To: naftaly@dazixco.ingr.com
Organization: Dazix
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 18:54:44 GMT


From Israeline 10/16/92

Arab Daily in London: Hamas to Receive Money from Iran in Exchange
for the Organization's Coordination with the Hizbullah
 
Today's AL HAMISHMAR quotes the London-based Arab daily A-Shark el-
Awest which stated that a Hamas delegation recently visited Iran
and agreed to accept financial assistance in exchange for
coordinating its actions with the Iranian-baked Hizbullah
organization. According to the report, the Iranian Revolutionary
Guards, which are located in the Lebanese Bak'a, will assume
responsibility for both organizations. Sources in Teheran said this
week that the commander of the Iranian Revolutionary Guards
promised to the Hamas delegation "to give supreme priority to
giving services of training and logistical support" to the
Palestinian Uprising. Iranian sources also said that the Hamas will
open a coordination office in South Lebanon which will be the
permanent channel of communications with the Hizbullah.




And I thought that the Hizbullah only wants Israel out of Lebanon. We can see now
that they have another purpose, and it is Israel out of Israel.

---
Naftaly Stramer (303)581-2370, FAX (303)581-9972    Intergraph Electronics
Internet: naftaly@dazixco.ingr.com                  6095 Spine Road    
UUCP: ..uunet!ingr!dazixco!naftaly  	            Boulder, CO 80301
Please excuse my English
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: rayes@Goat.mcs.kent.edu (Sandra Rayes)
Subject: Re: casualties during the Intifadah
Keywords: Washington Report's (lack of) credibility
Organization: Kent State University
Distribution: talk.politics.mideast
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 04:57:37 GMT

In article <XBRgsB1w163w@peewee> peewee@infoserv.com (Philip Stromer) writes:
>Anisa, you're quick to quote figures from The Washington Report, but
>most readers are probably aware that The Washington Report is very
>anti-Israel in its very nature.  Pete McCloskey is one of their
>leaders, along with the chief editor, Richard Curtiss.
>
So?

Do we (I include myself) have to quote pro-Israeli sources to make our
points?  We'd never have a debate if we all quote the same narrow-minded
material.

I also use the Washington Report as a source.  In addition to the editors
you choose to bash below, MANY other writers and experts contribute to
the WR, Including a former Israeli Intelligence officer, and many 
Israeli citizens who LOVE their country but HATE their country's policy
of violence against Palestinians.  We aren't in this to PLEASE you,
just voice our arguments.  You don't have to approve of our sources...
and frankly, we don't like yours for the same reason.  So cut the
crap about who we can quote and who we can't.  

I notice a tendency of your camp to hit below the belt with meaningless
jabs when you have nothing else to say.  Either put up with your own
evidence or shut up.  Quit pulling a "Dan Quayle" on us!!

Rest deleted because it is the same old story.

Sandra.


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed)
Subject: Re: To Yigal Arens
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 13:24:07 GMT

In article <4081@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh) writes:
>In article <16101@umd5.umd.edu> spinoza@next07wor.wam.umd.edu (Yon Bonnie Laird of Cairn Robbing) writes:
>> 
>>Which begs the question: do you therefore respect the Israelis and condemn  
>>the actions of the Arab leaders like Hussein and the Emir?
>
>That isn't the point at all.  Khaled is just making a statement based
>on reactions from these two posters.
>
>And whenever we criticize "the Arab leaders like Hussein and the Emir",
>people like Anwar and Razooqi jump in to defend their leader's actions
>and other posters tell us to just keep our mouths shut just to avoid
>further division between us.

You either haven't been listening or are purposefully lying.
We have been jumping in to defend personal attacks against us and
inane attacks on Kuwait by you and your cohorts.

>
>So what would you suggest?  Fight a one-sided battle or two-sided one?

I would suggest you lose your pathological obsession with Kuwait. Then
you'd have no argument at all.  I wouldn't be surprised if 70%+ of your
posts over the last two months were about Kuwait (ie. the Emir's wives,
and other nonsense).

>
>Anisa
>
>	"We don't live in Israel.  Not at all.  We live in
>	Palestinian territory.  It's Israeli occupied."
>					Hanan Ashrawi

-anwar
-- 
Anwar Mohammed                FREE       Graduate Student
anwar+@cs.cmu.edu              THE       School of Computer Science
Voice: +1 412 268 3043     KUWAITI       Carnegie-Mellon University
Fax:   +1 412 681 5739        POWS       Pittsburgh, PA  15213-3890
From: peewee@infoserv.com (Philip Stromer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: casualties during the Intifadah
Keywords: Response to Anisa
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 92 01:39:26 PDT
Distribution: world
Organization: Moon Macrosystems

It's nice to see Anisa quoting Mr. Dershowitz.  Next thing, you'll
be observing Shabbat.  Oy veh...   :)

Israel at least *has* an opposition voice.  When any Palestinians
voice dissent in Judea and/or Gaza, they're rubbed out by some
other (Palestinian) faction.  More Palestinians have been killed
by other Palestinians in Judea/Gaza than by Israelis.  This
seemingly major point is conveniently glossed over by the pro-
Palestinian camp.

I used to read about what a "terrorist" Shamir and the Likud were.
Now that Rabin and Labour are in charge, I hear Ashrawi say that
"they're just as bad as Shamir."

Last I read, the Israelis had given up 7,000 housing units in the
territories.  Stone-cold stopped the building, midstream.  I'm still
waiting to see *any* conciliatory response from the Palestinians.
Give me everything now or we'll continue to fight.  That's their
attitude.

The intifada could be called off for openers.  Too drastic?  How 
about calling off the Arab boycott.  Still too drastic?  How about
getting Assad to free the Syrian Jews?  No?  Maybe a Jordanian news-
paper could print *something* nice about Israel, which would be a
first.  Any sign (except the birdie) would be welcome in Israel.

--Philip Stromer--

"If there's one thing worse than a right-wing chauvinist book burner,
 it's a left-wing feminist one."
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: Re: DEMANDS PALESTINIAN HUNGER STRIKERS IN ISRAELI PRISONS
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 04:10:48 GMT

It was posted on "Israel line" today that the strike is going
to end soon, after meetings of Police officials and high ranking
Palestinains agreed on certain changes in the prison system. At
least they didn't let them starve to death, like in certain
other countries I can think about.

As a side remark, the "Islamic Jihad" fraction in the territories
was unhappy with the way Israel's police minister handled the
affair, and added him to their death list, as they announced
yesterday.

-Danny Keren.

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Serbia etc.
Date: 7 Oct 92 15:13:26 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <1992Oct7.134224.4640@cs.brown.edu> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
=>#
=>#Obviously, to point out that those posting condemnations of the Serbian
=>#actions do not speak for the whole Jewish community, and to highlight
=>#the natural affinity of the proponents of "ethnic cleansin".
=>
=>I see. So now *Jews* (in general) are 'proponents of "ethnic cleansin"'.

Only the most tortured mind could deduce that I claimed that Jews in general
are proponents of ethnic cleansing.

=> When someone from a country which
=>has nothing to do with the middle east conflict wants to post, sure,
=>that's fine.

First of all, it appears that you are assuming that I am a) British, and
b) neither Jewish nor Muslim. Secondly, I am amused to see that you believe
that Britain has nothing to do with the Middle East conflict. 

=>filth against the Jews and Israel, and contain highly insulting
=>descriptions of Jews, I get suspicious. Get it?

I might "Get it" if I recognised any of this as fact, which I don't.
You're pretty keen on launching these pathetic ad hominem attacks, but
I've yet to see you attempt to refute any of the documented postings 
I've made, and I notice that you again decline to comment on one I
made only yesterday. So if you want to keep on flaming, why not send
me e-mail, rather than making a big grandstand show and wasting everybody's
time and energy. That way I can devote more time to reading postings by
people like Adam who are at least prepared to argue their case in a 
thoughtful and non-inflammatory fashion.

=> So I am asking you
=>again: why do you post? Not a specific poster; in general. What
=>do you want to acheive?

Gee Danny, I'm trying to achieve world peace, brotherly love and a
state of beatific enlightenment.



-- 
===Jeremy Henderson===jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk=          Vommen
                                             Bladmagen
                                   Loepmagen
                        Naetmagen
From: dam@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (David Morning)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: More on Kuwiati Elections and Aftermath
Date: 13 Oct 92 09:44:03 GMT
Organization: Glasgow University Computing Science Dept.

anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) writes:

>In article <BvuoBs.KEx@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> dam@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (David Morning) writes:
>>anwar+@cs.cmu.edu (Anwar Mohammed) writes:

>>I don't understand this. I thought you said Al Sabah's government lost and
>>resigned?
>>
>>How can Al Sabah go and form a new government and head it when he'd already
>>lost out to the opposition? Shouldn't the opposition who won the
>>election be appointing someone to form and head the new government rather than
>>the person who lost?

>The power to form the cabinet is still in the hands of the Al-Sabah's. 
>But under pressure from the national assembly and popular opinion, they
>will pick cabinet portfolios accordingly.


Now I'm really confused!!

Let me try and get this straight. The Al-Sabah's picked a cabinet (which
presumably weilds the power in Kuwait). This cabinet and its supporters lost
at the elections so the Al Sabah's get to pick a new one?

What's to stop the Al Sabah's from loading the new cabinet with like minded
people to the old cabinet since they appear to be the sole arbitrators?
Does the National Assembly have a veto over who the Al-Sabah's pick?
How enforcable is this veto if they have one, if the Al Sabah's dig their
heels in?

Dave

--
From: jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Serbia etc.
Date: 8 Oct 92 09:34:31 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <1992Oct7.161016.8791@cs.brown.edu> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
=>jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson) writes:
=>#dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
=>
=>## When someone from a country which
=>##has nothing to do with the middle east conflict wants to post, sure,
=>##that's fine.
=>#
=>#First of all, it appears that you are assuming that I am a) British, and
=>#b) neither Jewish nor Muslim. Secondly, I am amused to see that you believe
=>#that Britain has nothing to do with the Middle East conflict. 
=>
=>I thought you were Scottish.

Just as a matter of interest, what if I'm Scottish, British, *and* Jewish?

=>And I don't think Britain currently
=>has anything to do with the middle-east conflict, not more than
=>it has to do with the political situation in other old British
=>colonies, like India.

Well there you go again, the mysterious elastic time-scale. The Jews have
a right to settle in Israel because some Jews lived there 2000 years ago,
and they have a right to shoot women and children because they threw stones
yesterday, but anything that happened at any other time is irrelevant.

=>You just don't get it, right? Your posters are completely one-sided,
=>and consist solely of filth that you can dig up about Israel in
=>particular and Jews in general. It is not only the accuracy of
=>the sources (which at least in one case was flawed) but also
=>your choice of material. There are (roughly) two sides to the
=>mid-east conslict, and yet you choose to sling mud only at one
=>of them, while there a whole stinking pile of mud that fits
=>the other side as well. To me, it looks suspicious. The arrogant
=>and insulting tone of your posters doesn't help.

Well, Danny, perhaps I have this problem in thinking that you're a
hypocrite. Maybe you can help me out by proving that you're not by
re-posting the last time you demonstrated your even-handedness by
criticizing Israeli actions? Then you can point out the last time you
flamed posters like Makowsky, Tractinsky etc. for their one-sided postings.

You'll be sorry to learn that I'm not holding my breath waiting for your
response.


-- 
===Jeremy Henderson===jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk=          Vommen
                                             Bladmagen
                                   Loepmagen
                        Naetmagen
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: adam@endor.uucp (Adam Shostack)
Subject: Re: EGYPT: LET MY PEOPLE DIE - we hate Jews !
Organization: Aiken Computation Lab, Harvard University
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 19:55:39 GMT

In article <1992Oct15.220327.21164@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> kshammou@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Khaled J Shammout) writes:
>     I'm sick and tired of jumping into conclusions based on mere ASSUMPTIONS 
>(which were first introduced by Gideon Ehrlich in article 52537 in which he 
>assumes that Egyptians would rather die than have Jews rescue them.)

Please refer to messages by ID#, not your newsreaders numbering.  The
IDs can be found in the references field.  My newsreader claims that
your article is 25897, meaning 52k is in the far future.


>     Any way, the point is YOU do not know why Egypt have refused Israel's
>assistance (if that is the case).  But one reason would come to mind is that,
>from the second day of the quake, it was too late to find any persons alive
>(after they had rescued that lucky lady).  So why should they require the
>assistance of teams that would have nothing to do but stand by and be a
>hurddle. What was left to do was simply clean the rubble and bury the
>dead; and Egypt would be able to do that.

2 days is not too late by any stretch.  In Mexico city, babies were
found alive 30 days after the quake, in the ruins.  Thats a
miraculously long time, but it was 30 days.

Egypt has accepted aid from other nations in the form of search and
rescue teams, several of which would have arrived long after the
Israeli team, which could have flown to Cairo in an hour, and bussed
there nearly as fast as the British team flew.

Adam


Adam Shostack 					adam@das.harvard.edu

What a terrible thing to have lost one's .sig.  Or not to have a .sig
at all.  How true that is.
From: kgivon@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (karen lee givon)
Subject: Re: Serbia etc.
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 18:46:18 GMT

In article <26642@castle.ed.ac.uk> jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson) writes:
>In article <1992Oct7.134224.4640@cs.brown.edu> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
>=>#
>=>#Obviously, to point out that those posting condemnations of the Serbian
>=>#actions do not speak for the whole Jewish community, and to highlight
>=>#the natural affinity of the proponents of "ethnic cleansin".
>=>
>=>I see. So now *Jews* (in general) are 'proponents of "ethnic cleansin"'.
>
>Only the most tortured mind could deduce that I claimed that Jews in general
>are proponents of ethnic cleansing.
I don't think I have a tortured mind, but I got the same impression Danny
got.  Maybe you should be more careful of you wording?
>
>=> When someone from a country which
>=>has nothing to do with the middle east conflict wants to post, sure,
>=>that's fine.
>
>First of all, it appears that you are assuming that I am a) British, and
>b) neither Jewish nor Muslim. Secondly, I am amused to see that you believe
>that Britain has nothing to do with the Middle East conflict. 
>
>=>filth against the Jews and Israel, and contain highly insulting
>=>descriptions of Jews, I get suspicious. Get it?
>
>I might "Get it" if I recognised any of this as fact, which I don't.
>You're pretty keen on launching these pathetic ad hominem attacks, but
>I've yet to see you attempt to refute any of the documented postings 
>I've made, and I notice that you again decline to comment on one I
>made only yesterday. So if you want to keep on flaming, why not send
>me e-mail, rather than making a big grandstand show and wasting everybody's
>time and energy. That way I can devote more time to reading postings by
>people like Adam who are at least prepared to argue their case in a 
>thoughtful and non-inflammatory fashion.
>
>=> So I am asking you
>=>again: why do you post? Not a specific poster; in general. What
>=>do you want to acheive?
>
>Gee Danny, I'm trying to achieve world peace, brotherly love and a
>state of beatific enlightenment.
>
>
>
>-- 
>===Jeremy Henderson===jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk=          Vommen
>                                             Bladmagen
>                                   Loepmagen
>                        Naetmagen
From: bgdv706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (Noam Tractinsky)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Serbia etc.
Date: 15 Oct 92 02:51:21 GMT
Organization: University of Texas @ Austin

In article <BvrLH6.3Dt@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, kgivon@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (karen lee givon) writes:
> In article <26642@castle.ed.ac.uk> jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson) writes:
>>In article <1992Oct7.134224.4640@cs.brown.edu> dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren) writes:
>>>#
>>>#Obviously, to point out that those posting condemnations of the Serbian
>>>#actions do not speak for the whole Jewish community, and to highlight
>>>#the natural affinity of the proponents of "ethnic cleansin".
>>>
>>>I see. So now *Jews* (in general) are 'proponents of "ethnic cleansin"'.
>>
>>Only the most tortured mind could deduce that I claimed that Jews in general
>>are proponents of ethnic cleansing.

> I don't think I have a tortured mind, but I got the same impression Danny
> got.  Maybe you should be more careful of you wording?



	He is very careful of his wording, can't you see? This is
	precisely the point.



Noam
From: peewee@infoserv.com (Philip Stromer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: casualties during the Intifadah
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 92 12:39:48 PDT
Distribution: world
Organization: Banished CPU

In article <1bk51fiNNbnm@early-bird.think.com>, Shai Guday (shaig@think.com) writes:

        >Ron Arad has nothing to do with this, and waving this is little
        >more than a red herring.

This coming from a former IDF soldier?  Am I supposed to believe this?

        >I served 3 years with the IDF, one of which was in Lebanon.  I have
        >served reserve duty for one month each year up to this year.

Excellent.  I salute your service.

        >In contrast to others here however, I am not an armchair warrior
        >espousing policies for which other [sic] will have to bear the
        >burden.  I have been there, and I know.

Same here.  I have relatives in Rehovot, and I've visited them there.
I'm no armchair warrior.  But by the same token, I'm not going to
grease my zipper so some terrorist can sodomize me.  The best way
to fight fire is with fire.

        >Of course, if you wish to continue cutting your nose to spite
        >your face go ahead.  Oh, I forgot, you don't live there anyway.

I don't see a "ac.il" after your e-mail address, either.  Maybe you've
caught one too many javelins.

        >Yeah, it's [Israel's legal system] a glow-worm compared to the
        >west.  There is room for major improvement,

Yeah, yeah...you leftists say the same thing about the U.S. legal system.
There's always room for improvement.  Let's open the military up to homos,
draft dodgers, and conscientious objectors.  Then when it comes time to
earn those benefits, they can all wuss out together while the rest of
us enlist to kick some ass.

        >I have no problem admitting that Israel has taken steps toward
        >peace

No, you only have a problem sticking up for Israel when her enemies are
as hostile as ever.  This week's Jerusalem Post says that Assad has rejected
even meeting with Rabin.  Assad says a summit now is "premature".  I guess
he means it's premature to have peace with Israel.

I fully expect your next posting to quote your hero, Noam Chomsky.
Don't disappoint me.

--From the right ... Philip Stromer--

E-mail: peewee@infoserv.com

P.S. -- Eat shit, Arf, you big liar.  You still haven't posted the apology                                                                   
        to TPM like you promised you would when CNN hired Sununu as the
        Crossfire co-host.  I haven't forgotten you Arf, you green-pukin'
        piss-ant.
From: peewee@infoserv.com (Philip Stromer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: casualties during the Intifadah
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 92 19:04:36 PDT
Distribution: world
Organization: Banished CPU

        Anisa writes:
        >I saw him [Dershowitz] on CNN last night -- the
        >Larry King show.  He said that he was 'born an
        >activist' and he will 'die an activist'.  An
        >activist of whom?  The rich and powerful, or
        >*real* justice?

The rich and powerful, of course.  The hell with everyone else.  :)

Anisa, why didn't Jordan and Egypt give Judea and Gaza to the
Palestinians in 1948?  And why aren't you mad at them like you
are at Israel?  Was Israel just supposed to sit there and watch
Nasser cross the Suez with 900 tanks, in direct violation of a
U.N. ceasefire?  Boo-hoo, Israel won the war in 6 days.  Boo-hoo.

(I'm still amazed that I got fired from my job for typing nasty
 stuff on a newsgroup called alt.flame.  I thought that's what
 alt.flame was for).

 Does anyone here know the PROPER usage of alt.flame)?

 Philip Stromer



Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast