HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mabr@sweden.hp.COM (Morgan the Dreamer Broman)
Subject: Fighting on Your Knees...
X-Unparsable-Date: Tue, 21 Jul 92 10: 39:02 METDST
Organization: The Internet
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 08:39:59 GMT


	Greetings to the Rialto !

	I have fought at Pennsic during some of the bridge battles that have
used the fords. IMLO I think that the idea of squires and apprentices etc be-
ing allowed to fight on foot too is right, since they are supposed to be keep-
ing up with their Masters/Knights etc in battle. Hopefully their masters are
good enough to "supply" them with horses.
	Having been a marshal for heavy weapons almost since I started in the
Society I agree that SAFETY must always come first. I personally think that
the rules for different scenarios should (like at Pennsic) be published in ad-
vance. It eliminates many questions and arguments later at the war in question.
	We have had some discussions about scenarios like these (with fighters
on their knees) here in Nordmark. As thing are we have one knight and five or
six squires, one Master and his apprentice who would be standing up. We came
to the conclusion that the fighters standing up (considered mounted) could not
fight with Poleweapons and/or 2 Weapons. They would basically be armed with
either a spear (representing a lance or spear) or with weapon and shield. We
are not too sure about 2-handed weapons (any suggestions ?).
	If a fighter has kneeproblems (I do) they can always bring it up with
the Marshallate and/or the Warlords, with a little goodwill it can be handled.
	BTW I was a squire at the Pennsics were we fought across the fords and
I had to crawl with the rest.....

--
Morgan "the Dreamer" Broman			mabr@sweden.hp.com
a.k.a Morgan deGrey (in the S.C.A)
a.k.a Morlacad "Shade" ShadowHawk (in L.R.P.G)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
| There are Fighters and Warriors. Fighters are many, Warriors few and	|
| WeaponMasters hardly any!					Morgan	|
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nothing stated here is an official statement by the Hewlett-Packard Corp.
or by the Society for Creative Anachronism.
From: Stephen.Whitis@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Stephen Whitis)
Sender: FredGate@ocitor.fidonet
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Why not pentacles:
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1992 19:23:18

T. Archer quoted Ioseph and then replied...

>>As a piece of information as to "Why don't we allow the pentagram /
>>pentacle to be used in SCA heraldry, here is an excerpt from a file
>>available at 1:114/166 as CSDM.ZIP:
>
>[very good informational file deleted to save bandwidth]
>
>Well, I suppose that's as good a reason as any, but how many and how much
>of our activites are we going to censor because of the prejudices of
>mundanes?

I have seen a number of people claim that there is no historical
precedent for using pentacles on armory, including heralds with
pagan affiliations.  I have not yet seen anyone claim that
pentacles *were* used.

However, even if someone *did* come up with two or three examples,
we still have to deal with the mundane world, and I feel that
pentagrams (like swatsikas) should not be registered.

Stephen of the Grove
Steppes/Ansteorra        FIDO 1:124/4229
Stephen.Whitis@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org   <-- Working Again?
___
 X MegaMail 2.10 #0:CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE!!!!

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)
From: ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Rape, women, carrying weapons
Date: 26 Jul 92 02:59:24 GMT
Organization: Ailanthus Project

mfactor@taronga.com (Marco Landin) writes:

> 	It's scaring me to think I have lady friends going to Pennsic!
> 	
> 	Should they be warned?  Is it really a constant concern there?  I mean,
> SCA or not, we do live in the 20th century, and I'll be the first to
> advocate constant vigilance against such atrocities.  1 of 3 women WILL BE
> sexually assaulted in her lifetime, this is a fact.  But I thought SCA was
> a bit more...er...CIVILIZED than that.

rape is a constant concern EVERYWHERE.  even at pennsic.  women have to 
look under the buishes for attackers every day of their lives.

i wish we were a bit more civilized than that...  but few if any places 
are completely safe...

                              -Walburga Ingsdottir

ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com   or   io81409@maine.maine.edu
 
"If it has tires or testicles, you're going to have trouble with it."
                            _Ohio state Senator Linda Furney
From: ted@barrister (Standing on the brink, I pause for reflection.)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Moderation (was pentagrams)
Date: 23 Jul 92 19:30:00 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Oklahoma - University Computing Services
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <1992Jul23.170053.12075@news.duc.auburn.edu>, bwilson@eng.auburn.edu writes...

> 
>like to keep enjoying the game as we are playing it, we need to appear to the
>world as a legitamate organization for normal people, not a pagan cult who
>practices ritual slaughter with wooden swords.

I'm afraid you've stumbled onto our secret.  The Illuminati will collect you
 in the morning.


>Sir Brian
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: jerbil@ultra.com (Joseph Beckenbach {Adapter Software Release Engr})
Subject: Re: Royals and Weather
Organization: Ultra Network Technologies
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 92 19:43:32 GMT


Unto those here gathered
doth Joseph d'Aquitaine send greetings!


>>Reminds me of the story of the time they had a heat wave in London and
>>the paper said, "75 DEGREES AGAIN TODAY--NO RELIEF IN SIGHT!" --which
>>is probably funnier in most other kingdoms than in the West or An Tir.

	Ouch -- obviously the English use Fahrenheit scale too.  Otherwise,
London would be desert. (65 degC ~ 167 degF)  (Sorry, was caught thinking
in mertic terms;  won't happen again :-)  Humorous to me, having grown up
in the Middle and moved to Caid before finding the SCA....

		Joseph
-- 
----
Joseph Beckenbach	jerbil@ultra.com	408-922-0600 x246
	(speaking from, but not for, Ultra Network Technologies)
Democracy is apple pie:  you must make it before you enjoy it.  -- me
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: GEN0036@Husky1.StMarys.Ca (GILBERT RICHARD)
Subject: Underage drinking (was Re: Another Pennsic tip)
Organization: St. Mary's University, Halifax, N.S., Canada
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 13:50:53 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.12.SMU

Hal Ravn posts:

> In article <Brsz8x.162@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> tbarnes@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes) writes:
> >At war two years ago I saw some slime-bag openly fondling a teen-ager
> >who was so drunk-of-her-ass that should couldn't feel or didn't care
> >what he was doing. 
> 
> I'm going to start sounding like a broken record soon . . .
> 
> Teens drinking is *illegal*.  The SCA is bound by mundane law (it's
> one fo the first things in Corpora).  Letting teens drink can get us
> in *serious*trouble* with the mundane authorities.

I don't know very much about US law but under Canadian law the only person
responsible is the person who actually gives the underage person alcohol
(for which there is a rather heavy fine), plus the underage person, of
course. I don't think there is a law against having underage people
drinking on your property, so long as you're not the supplier... This would
make it terribly hard to sue the Society itself, and probably fairly easy
to sue a number of its participants...

> (This is a 'crusade' only insofar as I think that such activities are
> not only illegal, but a threat to the continued wellbeing of the SCA.)

Well... Speaking from personal experience, I've found the idea of
responsible drinking to be something that's found on both sides of the age
line. I've met 30 and 40-year-olds who get boozed up and become real pains
in the neck, along side with 16-year-olds who seem to handle it no
problem...

> 	--Hal

-Brynjolfr Myrkjartanarson, Compaignie Mercurie, Seashire, Ruantallan, East

      The unwise man thinks he will live for ever if he shuns fight, but
      Old age gives him no peace though spears may shun him. - The Havamal

          The Net: gen0036@husky1.stmarys.ca, gen0036@stmarys.bitnet
From: carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu (Carl J.M. Alexander)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Dancing at Pennsic
Date: 23 Jul 92 13:47:58 GMT
Article-I.D.: mintaka.1992Jul23.134758.27718
Organization: Organization???

Lothar von Katzenellenbogen writes:
 
>	My point is that if people won't listen to a herald standing
>above the crowd in a tabard, they won't listen to anyone. The problem is
>that the barn is an acoustically lousy place for heralds, musicians,
>P.A. systems or anything else and people have noplace else to go to
>dance or socialize where its light at night.
>	The barn is already crowed and it won't get any better. Maybe it
>is time to consider creating a better place to dance?

How about one of those *huge* pavillions Tibor mentioned -- 80 x 100 
feet, as I recall.  Or maybe two of them, side by side.  That should 
provide plenty of room for dancing, leaving the barn free for its 
function as village square after dark.
 
Alexander of Kiev                       Carolingia, East

Carl Alexander                          Harvard Square, Cambridge, Mass.
carl@silver.lcs.mit.edu
From: g_leach@pavo.concordia.ca (LEACH, GRAHAM)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Advice for Pennsic
Keywords: Pennsic, Camping, linen
Date: 22 Jul 92 04:52:00 GMT
Organization: Concordia University
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

I have a question for all seasoned Pennsic campers (or campers in general,
for that matter ... :>  )

When I went camping recently I noticed the fact that the sleeping bags and
the pillows we used quickly became damp - by the second day we were resigned
to it.  Mind you it was a very rainy trip, but no rain actually fell upon the
bed linen.  Does this happen at Pennsic, or is it just a regional thing here?
(Quebec, CANADA).

Does anybody have a solution for this and/or has it happened to you too?

							graham.
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer)
Subject: Re: Interesting garb factoid: verification, anyone?
Organization: NASA Dryden, Edwards, Cal.
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 16:04:25 GMT

Regarding the virtue, or lack thereof, of women who wore underwear,
I've read, in several different places, that Queen Victoria, like the
rest of the upper class, didn't approve of women's underwear or wear
it herself until a lady (Lady, actually) tripped and fell and exposed
herself in court.  Horrified by this, Her Majesty converted instantly
to the idea of modestly clothing her nether regions.

--
Mary Shafer  DoD #0362 KotFR NASA Dryden Flight Research Facility, Edwards, CA
shafer@rigel.dfrf.nasa.gov                    Of course I don't speak for NASA
 "A MiG at your six is better than no MiG at all."  Unknown US fighter pilot
From: akilgour@thinkage.on.ca (Anita Kilgour)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Rape, women, carrying weapons
Date: 30 Jul 92 20:50:34 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization

To the gathered multitudes on this glorious last week before I leave for
Pennsic, do I, Tanith, send greetings and warm wishes.

To specifically the good lord Alexander of Kiev do I address this message.

When reading good Corun's comment about the gentle who mentioned security,
I had one thought go through my mind.  "This man *must* have Gascon blood 
somewhere!"

For surely there is no other reason (grin!) for him to react so vehemently,
save that all Gascons percieve insult in all but King and Cardinal.

(sorry, been reading Dumas again....)

Tanith

-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"People don't tend to kill their wives when there's something good on 
television."   
	-P. Fraser, July 30, 1992, in a discussion on murder & the LA riots
From: Suze.Hammond@f56.n105.z1.therose.pdx.com (Suze Hammond)
Sender: postmaster@therose.pdx.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Why not pentacles:
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 23:23:00 -0700

00>  From: 00030929@ysub.ysu.edu
00>  Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
00>
00>  Greetings to all, especially Aryk, from Vajk!
00>
00>  things because we were both members of a medieval group (I had not
00>  yet
00>  mentioned the SCA).  He asked me which group.  I told him, adding
00>  that he had
00>  probably heard of us.
00>
00>  He looked at me and said, "Oh, yes, I know them very well!"

Of course if it were our local police, it would perhaps be because some of 
them are members...

Always be nice to police, and invite them in and talk to them about the 
middle ages when at events. They have a tendency to be concerned when they 
think people aren't being open with them, and imagine things...

Show off your toys with pride, and explain them until their eyes start to 
glaze and they develop reasons to "have to leave". Most police are really 
human beings inside, and most of them *love* weapons (so long as they aren't 
*pointed* at them!-) If your group has police members, or members who are 
mundane mainstream clergy or elders it is probably helpful to rub this in 
their consciousness a bit, to counteract "educational" seminars like that 
given by the aforementioned "expert".

I was stopped for littering after a recent event. (It's a convertible and 
something got away. he made me go back, which I should have done anyway!)
The officer was wide-eyed at the dagger I had forgotten was in my purse 
(which is also my usual pouch), but I handed him the purse and asked him if 
he wanted to look at it. (Never draw the weapon yourself!) I explained that 
I had made it myself, and asked if he knew about the event. Turned out he 
had intended to take his family, but was called in to work early. He was 
very concerned about the cannon shot he had heard, and I explained it was 
used to mark "open" and "closing" hours for outside visitors. I did my best 
to recruit him. I have had similar experiences when the MacFlandrys are 
drilling at a local school. We carry real weapons, and now and then some 
civilian calls us in as a menace. We go into recruiting mode immediately. 
Works fine. If we want police members, we can't be hiding anything! (And 
yes, many of our people are pagans...one a shaman. But some of us are 
police, too. Never let *yourself* be trapped by stereotypes either, folks. 
*Any* stereotypes...)

Moreach NicMaolain
Veteran Trooper, MacFlandry Guards
Armed Celt, Herald, Warning!  :-)
trifid@agora.rain.com 
 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: parr@acs.ucalgary.ca (Charles Parr)
Subject: Re: Regarding cameras at SCA
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 15:05:32 GMT
Organization: The University of Calgary, Alberta

In article <711826061.F00001@ocitor.fidonet> Stephen.Whitis@f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Stephen Whitis) writes:

>Video cameras are often used to film fighters at major tournaments.
>Some of these tapes are then used to train other fighters.  ("See,
>when Sir X throws that shot, his shield drops, and he usually steps
>to the right just after he throws it.") 

      This is poor training...Do not depend upon your opponent
      to make a mistake, simply be a better fighter instead.

      It is also fairly stupid, since fighters habits 
      change with every practice, and the "knowledge"
      would usually be out of date almost immediatly.

>I think this is rather
>unchivalrous, since not all fighters have access to these tapes,
>and moves us along a path towards a mundane-competitive sport which I
>don't like.  And, for these people to do this, they set up mundane
>equipment around the edge of the list field and gripe whenever
>someone walks in front of it.  (And God Forbid you should stop to watch
>the fight!)

      Unchivalrous? Nonsense my lord. Nothing keeps anyone form
      asking for a tape, or from arranging to make a tape for 
      themselves. Financial inability???---Tough toenails, I
      can buy better armour as well, and spend more time
      traveling to tourneys for the experience as well: learn
      to deal with disappointment, I guess.

      In any event, the real utility of the video tape in *my*
      training is to give me a record of progress, and tell
      me what I need to work on. Believe me, I'm far to busy
      correcting my own errors to worry about taking advatage
      of soemone elses. The other utility of videotape is that
      it allows me to learn how the very best fighters do things,
      so I can integrate their abilities into my own style. My
      video tape of Duke Tjorkill is nearly wornout for this
      reason, and I'm a better fighter than I was last year
      because of it.

      In closing milord, may I comment that I consider
      it unchivalrous to *judge* another *as* unchivalrous?
      Their honor is their concern, milord...

Carolus Mediocris Malvoix
Montengarde An Tir
Broken thumb, testy.
-- 
Within the span of the last few weeks I have heard elements of
separate threads which, in that they have been conjoined in time,
struck together to form a new chord within my hollow and echoing
gourd. --Unknown net.person
From: leighann@sybase.com (Leigh Ann Hussey Oster)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Bellatrix
Date: 22 Jul 92 22:35:20 GMT
Organization: Ti' Ros Dhubh

My understanding about that was that "Bellatrix Street" was where he
lived at the time, and the name just got grandfathered in.

Slainte!
	- Siobhan
--
Leigh Ann Hussey Oster
leighann@sybase.com
Siobhan ni hEodhusa
"They're mine!  All mine!  And what's mine is mine!" - Daffy Duck
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: jerbil@ultra.com (Joseph Beckenbach {Adapter Software Release Engr})
Subject: Re: Steward's office restructuring.
Organization: Ultra Network Technologies
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 21:21:38 GMT

Unto Mikjal Annarbjorn and those others here gathered
doth Joseph d'Aquitaine send courteous greetings!

	Mikjal, I understand from a herald in Polderslot (Netherlands,
right Arval?) that he looked into SCA heraldry in regard to his country's
laws.  The upshot there was that he talked with appropriate authorities,
emphasized the "theater" and educational nature of the SCA, and (I believe)
got Royal permission to continue these activities in those contexts.  I think
that Brigantia (or one of his predecessors) would have more of the story if
your interest continues.

	SCA folk, as much as possible, has been keeping armorial display
to specifically SCA settings when in countries where armorial display can be
a problem.  Countries where heraldic display is not worried about (the
United States, most notably), things are unsurprisingly laxer.

		Joseph
-- 
----
Joseph Beckenbach	jerbil@ultra.com	408-922-0600 x246
	(speaking from, but not for, Ultra Network Technologies)
Democracy is apple pie:  you must make it before you enjoy it.  -- me
From: jtn@nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Rapier Combat
Date: 27 Jul 92 06:23:21 GMT
Followup-To: rec.org.sca
Organization: SCA

Unto the good gentles of the Rialto does Hossein Ali Qomi send greetings
and prayers for the blessings of Allah, most especially to Alexander of
Kiev.

Alexander recently posted:

>It should go without saying that the available documentation for 
>early period practices are almost never comparable to that for 
>late period practices.  All that this excessive concentration on 
>documentation can do is turn the Society into a bunch of Renaissance
>swishes. 

I fear, my lord, that zeal has carried you farther than evidence will
support.  Certainly there are more Renaissance documents extant than
Carolingian documents.  However, this problem is not nearly as pernicious
as you think for Western Europe after 1200.  There is ample documentation
for most purposes for recreation of post-1200 combat.  I grant that much
of it is not in the vernacular, while much of the late Renaissance material
is, but that is a problem solvable by language-study.  From the thirteenth
century onward the problem isn't lack of sources, but finding relevant
information in the enormous mass of extant documents.  And have no fear,
until the late fifteenth century the only "Renaissance swishes" in Europe
were Italian.

Best Wishes,

Hossein/Greg
Organization: Doctoral student, Industrial Administration, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 14:02:21 -0400 
From: David Schroeder <ds4p+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Basic Courtesy

Good gentles,

Many of you have written, publicly and privately, that you agree that
taking "cheap shots" at others is not something you appreciate seeing
on the Rialto.  For that support, many thanks.

In a direct communication, Stephen of the Grove has indicated he 
believed his comments were blunt, but not discourteous.  Further,
he said that my actions -- making my comments on the matter
public, rather than private -- were a greater discourtesy.

Let me say in my own defense that the reason I _made_ these comments
publicly rather than privately is because I feel that it is a "public"
problem for the Rialto in general, rather than a problem particular to
Stephen.  It was only my sense that this particular post was a "cheap
shot" that prompted my critique, not any overall pattern of discourtesy
on Stephen's part.  I, for one, have enjoyed many of his other comments.

Somehow, "this example of ________ is so bad it makes an excellent case
for doing away with ________ entirely..." (to paraphrase) goes beyond
blunt criticism and becomes something that diminishes the attacker more
than what is attacked (no matter _what_ the subject).

Nicolas writes, "As a graduate student, you should realize that to 
attack an individual's ideas or works is not to attack the individual 
personally."  He then continues to say I'm advocating "political
correctness" rather than "courtesy."  If the original post had
been a specific attack on Christian's song I might agree -- but
it wasn't.  "Political correctness" is nearly as slippery a term
as "courtesy," but I don't think an across-the-board discouragement
of "cheap shots" that enflame without enlightening qualifies.

It feels very awkward for me to take this "side" in the controversy.
I have long been an advocate of blunt, straight speech.  Still, I do
believe that some judgment is required to tell the difference between
bluntness and inconsiderateness.  All I can ask is that we all strive
to exercise that judgment with greater diligence in the future.

Many thanks -- Bertram

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bertram of Bearington                                      Dave Schroeder
Debatable Lands/AEthelmearc/East               Carnegie Mellon University
INTERNET: ds4p@andrew.cmu.edu                         412/731-3230 (Home)
------------------------- PREME * Press On * PREME ----------------------
      "He indulged in every excess, yes in each licentious whim..."      

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca