From: liqiang@kramden.nyu.edu (Li)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china
Subject: Re: Oct 1, our National Day
Date: 3 Oct 92 22:38:14 GMT
Organization: New York University

xlli@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (xiao-lin li) writes:

>In article <1992Oct2.193641.24389@Princeton.EDU> muyu@beam.Princeton.EDU (Muyu Guo) writes:

>>  The biggest problem for China is her population.  That is the major
>>  hurdle for her to become a real powerful and rich country.  Nobody
>>  can change that fact easily.  Don't tell me D-fighters can do that.

>No, I think no body can change this fact. The only thing we can say
>is that the problem was created by the CCP. If there were a free election,
>I bet D-fighters would win on this point, just like Clinton will win
>on the point of economy.

Xiaolin, everybody can just trace any problem to the CCP - this doesn't 
help at all. Look, we don't want to be as stupid as the CCP. After they
came to power, they blamed the KMT reactionaries for a while; then they
blamed Liu Shaoqi for I guess 10 yrs or so; after that they blamed 
the gang of four for another say 10 yrs. Right now, they don't seem to
be blaming anyone again and they are gaining some credit. I guess it's just
not so constructive to repeat their mistakes.

As to China's population problem, true, historically the CCP created this
but now they are doing their job to control the population growth and this
effort should be applauded. I was in China this summer. I found that all
my relatives (incl. those who live in the countryside in Jiangsu Prov.)
are strictly following the one-child policy. I have no 1st hand data
concerning more remote areas but I think the CCP's one-child policy
deserves a chance. Unfortunately, birth control in China is one of the few
areas that I wouldn't advocate "self-determination" so the D-fighters who
are literally less tough shouldn't be viewed too favorably on this matter.

>China has been in bad shape compare to others, that was under the leadership
>of communist party. Therefore CCP will have no credit. People need
>change. At least it will bear a hope for better.

>Let us see on what points D-fighters would win if there were a free
>election in China. D-fighters will win on the point of 6/4 killing.

Very likely. Here is my experience in China this summer. When I tried
to bring up topics about political changes (democracy, media opennes, etc)
most of my friends didn't show much interest at all. They would be more
comfortable talking about the stock mkts, new policies on joint ventures, etc.
I think they shouldn't have thought that I was spying on them.

I'm not discounting the 6.4 event. It was a great movement in which the 
spiritual ideals of the Chinese were fully shown. However, the D-fighters
don't have such a good record of following those ideals (from what
I have been reading about them). If people vote for the 6.4, is it gonna
be all to their credit? 

>D-fighters will win on the point of democracy, D-fighters will win

A little doubtful at present. I don't know how much the peasants understand
what you, Xiaolin, mean by democracy. Is a middle class necessary to support
this idea or is it not?

>on the point of free market, D-fighters will win on the point of

The problem of the free mkt economy is often technical. That depends on
experience. The D-fighters obviously know more theories from school but 
how much credit should we give them in terms of experience?

>Japanese compensation, D-fighters will win on the point of diplomacy.

The diplomats of the CCP have received professional training - they are
rated high in the world's diplomatist community. How many D-fighters 
have had the same training? 

As for the Japanese compensation, the Japanese are tough to deal with;
you think they will write you a check just by being told the democracy
principles?

>What else will D-fighters win?

Let me give you an advice, Xiaolin - you may choose to disregard it:

Be a little moderate(wasn't moderation one of Confucius' basic 
principles? - maybe you don't care to talk about Confucianism).

It happens that society doesn't often evolve according to our intuition
and it should be more interesting when it doesn't. China's development in the
past 3 yrs or so is itself a good lesson for us. We have so much to 
learn - esp how and when and why and where to implement world's greatest
ideas.

>>
>>  Muyu
>>
>>-- 
>>Muyu Guo


- Li, Qiang
Xref: sparky soc.culture.china:27001 talk.politics.china:1670