HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: seymour@stein.u.washington.edu (Richard Seymour)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.hp,comp.sys.sun.misc,comp.sys.sun.hardware
Subject: Re: Exabyte support on HP700s
Date: 7 Oct 92 19:01:40 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Oct7.190140.12159
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <1asu3sINN16g@male.EBay.Sun.COM> billc@lakers.EBay.Sun.COM (Bill Campbell) writes:
>There seems to be a serious problem in reading tar files (written
>on a Sun) on an exabyte connected to HP700s. The *UNSUPPORTED* device
>driver for exabyte on HP700s cannot do a lot of the basic things.

...WARNING... be SURE you write-protect any tar tape you give to an
 HP 700 running v8.07.   
There is a "behaviour pattern" (can a consciously commited act 
 be called a "bug"?) caused by some Exabyte ROM versions which will cause
 the last record of an INPUT tape's tar file to be overwritten/destroyed!

(at the end of reading a tar file, the HP sends a "write zero filemarks" to
 the Exabyte to "flush its buffers".  Some exabytes do a Fortran-66 action:
  telling it to do something zero times makes it do it once... and it writes
  a filemark on top of the final record in the tar file.
To see if -your- system does this: create a short tar tape.  Do a tar -t
 on it to get a listing.  Rewind and do that same tar -t again.
If the second pass produces an error message at the end: Yep! you've got it!)
--dick
From: fkittred@spchp11.BBN.COM (Fletcher Kittredge)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.hp
Subject: Re: HP vs. Sun
Date: 13 Oct 92 22:36:23 GMT
Organization: Bolt Beranek and Newman Inc., 10 Molton Street, Cambridge, MA
	02138
NNTP-Posting-Host: spchp11.bbn.com
In-reply-to: xm9@sdcc12.ucsd.edu's message of 13 Oct 92 14:19:07 GMT

>In article <39417@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> xm9@sdcc12.ucsd.edu (richard g. adair) writes:
>In article <1992Oct13.014059.19464@eng.ufl.edu> scot@eel.ufl.edu writes:
>>should purchase the Sun 690 with SuperSparc upgrades
>>when they arrive, or go with an HP9000/730. Basically
>>what I want is performance info on both lines of 

>Our HP 730 is just a little bit slower than a SparcStation II (!).
>I know this shouldn't be so, but there it is!

Something must be wrong with your configuration.  We have dozens of
HP 7X0 and hundreds of Sun workstations.  Our experience under a
variety of conditions is that the HPs are *much* faster than the
SparcStation IIs.  Everybody wants an HP now ;-)

Could the difference be memory?  We found an enormous speed-up in our
HP 7X0s when we increased all of their memory from 16-32mg to 48mg.
Swapping and paging on this class of machine is a real killer.

regards,
fletcher

--
/* Fletcher Kittredge
 * BBN Software Products
 * 150 CambridgePark Dr,  Cambridge, MA. 02140
 * 617-USE-FINK  /  fkittred@bbn.com  /  fkittred@das.harvard.edu
 */
Newsgroups: comp.sys.hp,comp.sources.wanted,alt.sources.wanted,no.sources.wanted,comp.dcomm.fax,alt.fax
From: houten@prso.pttnwb.nl (K. van Houten)
Subject: Re: FAX software
Organization: PTT Telecom b.v. The Netherlands
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 10:45:00 GMT

In article <1992Oct14.212556.7337@news.uit.no>, bjoerns@stud.cs.uit.no (Bjoern Stabell) writes:
|> I just tried GNU's fax software, but to no avail.  Our FAX, which is a
|> Xerox Multinational Telecopier 7021 (S-869), didn't understand the fax-modem
|> commands (it's not a fax-modem, so it's very surprising *sigh*).
|> 
|> So, my question is, does anybody know of any fax software, commercial or
|> public domain, that might be compatible with this fax and which might run
|> on HP (9000) boxes?

HP told me they will announce their own FAX product soon,
based on the fax software from "Faximum Software Inc.".

In the mean time we have ordered TrueFax software for our 700's,
that comes from Devcom Mid-America Inc.
Contact Jim White (jew@devcom.uucp) for more details.

-- 
Karel van Houten, 		DOMAIN:	houten@pttnwb.nl
PTT Telecom b.v.		UUCP:	uunet!mcsun!sun4nl!pttdis!houten
's-Gravenhage, The Netherlands	VOICE:	+31 70 3434947
Newsgroups: comp.sys.hp
From: system@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (System Admin (Mike Peterson))
Subject: Re: HP 750 power supply and memory access
Organization: University of Toronto Chemistry Department
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 14:58:03 GMT

In article <1992Oct7.134339.27336@alw.nih.gov> eric@helix.nih.gov (Eric Henry) writes:
>Has anybody using a 750 (or perhaps other snakes, for that matter) noticed a
>power supply "chirp" or "buzz" when running large matrix procedures?

I have been hearing this for a few months, but had never tried to
correlate it with what the system is doing - our system is almost always
running at least one large background batch process, but the noise
do seem to come and go. Any info appreciated too!
-- 
What are the chances that any HP computer system will ever "work" properly?
... and Slim just left town. -*- Mike Peterson, SysAdmin, U/Toronto Chemistry
Newsgroups: comp.sys.hp
From: aharon@bnlux1.bnl.gov (Aharon Friedman)
Subject: Re: HP 750 power supply and memory access
Organization: Brookhaven National Laboratory
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 16:55:39 GMT

>>Has anybody using a 750 (or perhaps other snakes, for that matter) noticed a
>>power supply "chirp" or "buzz" when running large matrix procedures?
>
>That is just all those electrons dying.  All electrons emit a scream
>when they die.  If you get a whole bunch to scream at the same time,
>such as in memory, the human ear can just barely hear them. :-) :-)
>
>Tony Burzio
>Arete Associates
>San Diego, CA
>

I did not know that the 750 is cappable of matter -> energy conversion.
Aharon Friedman
Brookhaven National Laboratory
Newsgroups: comp.sys.hp
From: mcmorran@ll.mit.edu (Roy McMorran)
Subject: Anyone using the Infotek 256MB RAM Kit for HP 730?
Organization: MIT Lincoln Laboratory, Lexington, MA
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 92 19:19:45 GMT

Infotek is offering a means to upgrade the HP 730 to a total of 256 Megabytes.
Apparently the way they do this is by replacing the standard 16- or 32-MB
memory modules with 64-MB ones.  These are too tall to fit in the 730s case,
though, so they include a _replacement_cover_ for the unit to  provide clear-
ance.

Is anyone out there using one of these?  This sounds like somewhat radical
surgery.  How does it work out?  Also, would anybody from HP like to
comment on how this would affect warranty, support, etc?

Thanks
Roy
-- 
Roy McMorran = mcmorran@ll.mit.edu // Now it's over I'm dead and I haven't
MIT Lincoln Laboratory             \\ done anything that I want, or I'm 
244 Wood Street B261               // still alive and there's nothing
Lexington, MA 02173                \\ I want to do...         -TMBG
From: mjs@fc.hp.com (Marc Sabatella)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.hp
Subject: Re: Shared Libs on HP9000
Date: 8 Oct 92 19:13:58 GMT
Article-I.D.: fc.BvtHFA.F4C
Reply-To: marc@hpmonk.fc.hp.com
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Fort Collins Site
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.2 PL6]

: What are the advantages of
: SHARED LIBRARIES?  Smaller executables? Any change in performance?
: Should I recompile xv, emacs, perl to take advantage of this?

The intended advantage, the whole reason we did it, is smaller executables.
In theory, in a memory-bound system running a lot of different applications
that shared a lot of code (ie, Motif, Vue, etc) you can get some a performance
boost by reducing swapping, but I've never actually seen this happen.  There
is a slight performance degradation in the nomral case due to the overhead of
dynamic loading, and the position-independent code in the libraries.  It is
usually insignificant - less than 0.5% difference in SPEC, for instance.  On
the other, hand, it enabled us to reduce the size of the commands shipped with
HP-UX by over half, and I typically see a savings of an order of magnitude in
Motif programs.

Emacs probably does not like to be linked with shared libraries, unless you
explicitly told it CANNOT_DUMP when configuring.  As for the others, try it and
see how much room you save.  it probably is not worth the time to just relink
a few programs.

: Is it just a matter of tripping the "-n" switch on the compiler?
: Does ld have to be run separately, with "-B" or "-b"?

Shared libraries are the default.  Just rebuild your program (no need to
recompile; just relink) and shared versions of the libraries are used
automatically if available.  "-n" has nothing whatsoever to do with it.  "ld"
is run with the "-b" option if you want to build your own shared libraries; but
you don't need to know about this if you just want to link with shared versions
of the system libraries like the C libraries, X11, Motif, etc.

: What about all the Berkeley differences recorded in the HP-UX.TRICKS
: posted last week?  

Berkeley, at least 4.3 BSD, does not have shared libraries.  Certain other
BSD-ish systems, like SunOS, do, and the HP-UX implementation is similar in
concept to Sun's.

: We have both 385 and 825 here. Any major differences with sl?

Not really, for the most part.  There are differences between 300/400, 700's,
and 800's, between 8.0, 8.05, 8.07, and 9.0 that are mainly important only if
you want to use shl_load(3X) and related functions to programmatically load
shared libraries, as opposed to simply linking programs that use shared
libraries.

: I'd appreciate pointers to FAQs, manuals that discuss compiling
: for shared libs.

The manaul to get is "Programming On HP-UX".  My copy says it is part no.
B2355-90010.

--
Marc Sabatella
marc@hpmonk.fc.hp.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.hp,comp.sources.wanted,alt.sources.wanted,no.sources.wanted,comp.dcomm.fax,alt.fax
From: stevej@hpc.mentorg.com (Steve Jumonville)
Subject: Re: FAX software
Originator: stevej@hpc.mentorg.com
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 00:01:38 GMT
Organization: Mentor Graphics 
Keywords: 
Followup-To: 


In article <1992Oct14.212556.7337@news.uit.no>, bjoerns@stud.cs.uit.no (Bjoern Stabell) writes:
|> I just tried GNU's fax software, but to no avail.  Our FAX, which is a
|> Xerox Multinational Telecopier 7021 (S-869), didn't understand the fax-modem
|> commands (it's not a fax-modem, so it's very surprising *sigh*).
|> 
|> So, my question is, does anybody know of any fax software, commercial or
|> public domain, that might be compatible with this fax and which might run
|> on HP (9000) boxes?

A new layered  product, HP-FAX, will be available on HP-UX 9.0.  It is a
client/server  application, Motif based.  Since HP-UX 9.0 is a couple of
months out (until  everyone gets their  updates),  you'll likely need to
wait if you intend to use it.

 --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                ON-SITE AT MENTOR GRAPHICS CORPORATION
 --------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Steve Jumonville              INTERNET:       steve_jumonville@mentorg.com
 Hewlett-Packard Technical Consultant
 Mentor Graphics Corp.
 8005 SW Boeckman  Road        VOICE:          (503) 685-7746
 MS  E-1302                    VOICE-MAIL:     (503) 685-1316 (ext. 7746)
 Wilsonville, Oregon 97070     FAX:            (503) 685-7986
 --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.hp
From: lamaster@pioneer.arc.nasa.gov (Hugh LaMaster)
Subject: HP Case Environment vs (?) DEC, SGI, and Sun?
Organization: RIACS, NASA Ames Research Center
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 92 18:31:30 GMT

There was a recent announcement that DEC, SGI, and Sun have made a
joint proposal for an open CASE tool integration standard.  An
excerpt of DEC's announcement of same is enclosed.  The announcement
alludes to the similar HP capabilities, and in some way they are
accommodated or included, apparently, but, it appears that HP is not
part of the joint proposal.  My questions are:

What is the relationship of HP's environment and the proposed DEC/SGI/Sun
standard?

Why isn't HP part of the committee/proposal, since HP has done a great
deal of work in this area already?




Herewith the excerpt:

        DIGITAL, SILICON GRAPHICS, AND SUNSOFT LEAD INDUSTRY

             TOWARD OPEN CASE TOOL INTEGRATION STANDARD


... CASE message standard to be proposed to ANSI... More than a
dozen CASE tool vendors endorse effort ...


Boston, Mass. -- Sept. 30, 1992 -- Digital Equipment Corporation,
Silicon Graphics, Inc., and SunSoft today  introduced a proposal
for an open CASE tool integration standard that enables software
developers to integrate and deploy their CASE tools across different
CASE environments. The proposal will be submitted to the ANSI
X3H6CASE Tool Integration Models Committee as a working document for
the newly formed Tool Integration Subcommittee. The joint
submission, entitled "The CASE Interoperability Message Sets:
Release 1.0." will be presented to CASE tool developers and users at
the CASE World trade show in Boston on October 1st.


-- 
  Hugh LaMaster, M/S 233-9,     UUCP:      ames!lamaster
  NASA Ames Research Center     Internet:  lamaster@ames.arc.nasa.gov
  Moffett Field, CA 94035-1000  Or:        lamaster@george.arc.nasa.gov 
  Phone:  415/604-1056                     #include <usenet/std_disclaimer.h> 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.hp,misc.forsale.computers
From: nyenhuis@dynamo.ecn.purdue.edu (John Nyenhuis)
Subject: For Sale: HP Thinkjet Printer with HP-IB Interface.. Best offer
Followup-To: poster
Keywords: thinkjet printer for sale
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1992 20:44:11 GMT


For Sale: HP Thinkjet Printer with HP-IB interface. (2225A).
The printer is in good operating and cosmetic condition. However, 
there is no linecord, HP-IB cable, or ink cartridge. (All of these 
are of course readily available elsewhere.) Furthermore,
the plastic tab which deflects the paper is missing. The printer 
will work fine without the deflector, though it would be 
nice to have it...

It seems that the best use of the printer would be to connect
it to an HP instrument. For instance, it could be used for
screen dumps on the HP54501A. In most cases it would not
be useful on a PC, unless there happens to be an HP-IB 
interface and device driver.

Make an offer if interested. (I'd be delighted to get 
$40 + shipping, but will settle for less.)

John

John Nyenhuis   Purdue University  School of Electrical Engineering
West Lafayette IN 47907   (317)494-3524     nyenhuis@ecn.purdue.edu
From: hardy@golem.ps.uci.edu (Meinhard E. Mayer (Hardy))
Subject: Re: NeXT and HP?
In-reply-to: mjo@snclib.snc.edu's message of Sat, 10 Oct 92 07:12:38 GMT
Newsgroups: comp.sys.hp
Organization: Department of Physics, UC Irvine, CA 92717-4575, USA
Date: 11 Oct 92 01:10:32 GMT
Followup-To: comp.sys.hp

In article <1992Oct10.071238.19201@meteor.wisc.edu> mjo@snclib.snc.edu (Mike O'Connor) writes:

>
>   :Does anyone at HP know if NeXT Computers Inc.  will be using HP's
>   :new PA7100 RISC chip in their (NeXT's) upcoming RISC workstations?
>   :
>   :If anyone knows, e-mail to:  fernandeza@lucy.merrimack.edu
>
>   If anyone knows, or has some pretty good data, please post!

I heard this rumor (or wishful thinking) too -- from the NeXT side. 
Maybe if we repeat it often enough Steve Jobs and the new powers at HP
will hear about it and think it's a good idea too. 


--
Hardy 
-----
Meinhard E. Mayer,  Department of Physics, UC Irvine 
e-mail: hardy@golem.ps.uci.edu (preferred) or MMAYER@UCI.BITNET

Xref: sparky comp.sys.hp:11419 comp.unix.internals:1868 comp.lang.c:14671
From: aimsuser@shakti.ncst.ernet.in (aimsuser citibank overseas)
Subject: HP AIMS/XDP PLEXUS USERS- ATTENTION
Keywords:  imaging HP AIMS, informix, plexus, XDP
Organization: National Centre for Software Technology, Bombay
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 04:38:01 GMT

We are using HP's Advance Image Management System which
is the HP version of Plexus XDP (Extended Data Processing)
system for an imaging application. We would like to
know is there are any other users on the net who are
using this system also.

If other users can get in touch we can have a lot of
information exchange with nothing to lose.

Cheers,
Deenar Toraskar
(CITICORP SOFTWARE)
(aimsuser@shakti.ncst.ernet.in)



Newsgroups: comp.sys.hp
From: Shigeya.Tanabe@kelly.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp (Shigeya Tanabe)
Subject: Reading from centronics interface?
Reply-To: Shigeya.Tanabe@kelly.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp
Organization: Geoengineer, The Uni of Tokyo
Distribution: comp
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 14:34:55 GMT

I'm using PostScript printer with HP720 through centronics interface.
According to manual page, this interface supports write operation
only. I do want to get return message from printer. Is there any way
to read from centronics interface? Is there any unsupported or
undocumented features? Will it be supported in HP-UX 9.0??

-- Shigeya TANABE / The univ. of Tokyo
From: raymond@es.ele.tue.nl (Raymond Nijssen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.hp
Subject: Re: Consistent (frustrating!) PPL error...
Date: 8 Oct 92 12:23:45 GMT
Organization: Eindhoven University of Technology, Eindhoven, The Netherlands
In-reply-to: Ed.Holzwarth@bbs.oit.unc.edu's message of 3 Oct 92 15:21:28 GMT

In article <1992Oct3.152128.9282@samba.oit.unc.edu> Ed.Holzwarth@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Ed Holzwarth) writes:

>   here is my ppl.remotes file:

>   152.17.5.1      # remote host name or Internet address for edholz

We found that this string must match the corresponding one in ppl.users

>   152.17.1.1      # local host name or Internet address for ac
>   255.255.0.0     # Internet mask

It's likely that 255.255.255.0 is a better choice, given the above subet numbers.

>   PPP             # protocol [SLIP] [ASLIPC] [ASLIPS] [PPP]

Our recent version of laserrom for 8.07 says:
'Currently, only the SLIP, ASLIPC and ASLIPS options are supported.'


Hope this helps,
-Raymond
--
Raymond Nijssen             | Eindhoven University of Techology
       phone: +31-40-473373 | Department of Electrical Engineering
       fax:   +31-40-464527 | Design Automation Section (ES),  room EH 7.16
"WP is for morons"          | PO. Box 513, 5600 MB Eindhoven, The Netherlands
From: dieh1232@w251zrz.zrz.tu-berlin.de (Rolf Diehl)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.hp
Subject: Need Patch PHCO_0800
Date: 15 Oct 92 16:39:51 GMT
Organization: ZRZ der TU-Berlin

Hi Netters,
is there a possibility to get the mentioned patch from some place via ftp.
I would need it to compile gcc.
I can not get it from hpsl as we do not have the software support at the moment.
Thanks
	Rolf Diehl.

____________________________________________________________________
|Dipl.-Ing. Rolf Diehl, TU Berlin, Institut fuer technische Akustik |
|Tel 030-314-22889, Fax -23222, dieh2133@files1zrz.zrz.tu-berlin.de |
|___________________________________________________________________|
Newsgroups: comp.sys.hp,comp.sys.apollo
From: system@alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca (System Admin (Mike Peterson))
Subject: Re: nameserver vs. vuelogin
Organization: University of Toronto Chemistry Department
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 20:33:32 GMT

In article <1av286INNbuj@taloa.unice.fr> piro@ecu.unice.fr writes:
>Can anyone tell me how to solve this problem (appart from the official
>advice from hp-Spain which was to desactivate the resolve.conf!).

You need to list more than one nameserver in /etc/resolve.conf - your
system will still be slow if the first nameserver is not available,
but things should work eventually. You should try to put your
nameservers on separate network segments in case one segment gets
switched out/disconnected. I run 2 nameservers on our Ethernet
(actually both think they are masters too), plus point to a
system in our central services for worst case failures.
-- 
What are the chances that any HP computer system will ever "work" properly?
... and Slim just left town. -*- Mike Peterson, SysAdmin, U/Toronto Chemistry
Newsgroups: comp.sys.hp
From: rao@tree.egr.uh.edu (Jagannatha  Rao)
Subject: Memory  and disk upgrade for  HP710
Organization: University of Houston
Distribution: usa
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 18:00:55 GMT




I need some information on upgrading my HP 710. It has 16M in factory default  
memory. Reading the owner's manual, I gather that I cannot add another 16M  
toget 32 M; instead my next upgrade step is to add 32M to get a total of 48 M.  
Unless ofcourse I trade in my current 16M chips. Correct? 

Good osurces of memory chips for this machine? 

Also, I am looking to add a big hard disk (about 1 Gig).  Will any plain SCSI  
disk do or will I be better off to buy from a vendor who sells "HP-specific"  
disks? (i.e., with proper formatting etc.?) I am not very knowledgeable about  
this, so please send all pointers you can.  Vendors to buy disks from?

Thanks.

--
Jagannatha Rao				E-mail:rao@tree.egr.uh.edu
Department of Mechanical Engineering    Tel   :(713) 743-4535
University of Houston                   Fax   :(713) 743-4503
Houston, TX 77204-4792

Newsgroups: comp.sys.hp
From: sys_somogyi@sscvx1.ssc.gov
Subject: Re: <<HP memory mgmt, and my discovery!!>>
Organization: Superconducting Super Collider Laboratory
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 15:12:43 GMT

In article <7371377@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM>, stroyan@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Mike Stroyan) writes:
>> I have been experiencing memory related problems on an HP9k720 using
>> HPUX 8.0.7 as follows:
>> 
>> The system has 80MB of RAM installed.  3-4 users use this system on a daily
>> basis using HP VUE, softbench, and other HP development tools.  The basic
>> problem is that all available memory will eventually be consumed in the
>> course of a week or less without ANY paging or swapping taking place.
>> In other words, the concept of virtual memory is being ignored by this
>> system.  The O/S was installed in the "standard" way, taking defaults, etc...
> 
> You don't indicate what symptom gives you the impression that all memory
> has been "consumed".  I expect that processes are failing with messages
> about not having memory available.  That kind of message doesn't mean
> that you ran out of RAM.  It means that you ran out of swap space.  When
> a system runs out of swap space, it runs out of virtual memory.  To see
> what swap is available and what swap is used, run "/etc/swapinfo -a" as
> root.
> 
> You can add more swap by adding a swap device, repartitioning a disk to
> have more swap area, or enabling file system swap.  The manual "How
> HP-UX Works:  Concepts for System Management" discusses these matters in
> Chapter 7, "Memory Management".
> 
> Mike Stroyan, mike_stroyan@fc.hp.com

The response to the problem as given above by Mike Stroyan is very typical
of the HP support I have received thus far...pretty much worthless.  If Mike
had bothered to read the entire original posting, he would have found that
the problem dealt with the fact that NO SWAP SPACE WAS BEING USED...in other
words, /etc/swapinfo reveals that only 2% or less of all avaliable swap space
was actually used EVEN when physical memory was at 95%+, WHICH WAS PREVIOUSLY
STATED.  This did in fact result in processes dying with messages about not
having memory available, EVEN when swap space was not being utilized.
And by the way, swapping is/was enabled!

The intent of the original posting was to inform HP administrators of the
severe inconsistentcies contained in the documentation, namely the
chapter on "Memory Management" in "Concepts for the System Administrator",
and "System Administration Tasks".  Mike fails to address the discrepency
dealing with "lockable memory" as described in the "Concepts..." manual.

Mike also fails to address the outright error in documentation and on-line
help which indicates "unlockable_mem" is specified in bytes, while in
actuallity it is specified in pages (4k pages).

For what it's worth, the system in question has not only device swap
space (priority 0), but also has filesystem swap space (priority 1).


Dave Somogyi
SSC Lab
Dallas, TX
somogyi@sscvx1.ssc.gov
Newsgroups: comp.sys.hp,comp.databases.informix,comp.sys.ncr,comp.sys.att,comp.windows.ms.programmer