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Date:         Sun, 27 Sep 1992 20:01:31 -0400
From:         IAN YORK <YORK@MCMASTER.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: *The Lost Ones*

        Michael Bruce:  I too had underestimated the lenth of The Lost Ones,
remembering it as an even slimmer volume than it is.  I have my copy close
by and am willing to navigate by instruments.  (I doubt that there are multi-
ple editions, so page references will likely be valid.)
        Anyone else have any comments?
        Ian
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.literary
From: holmes@loro-next.Stanford.EDU (Elizabeth Helen Holmes)
Subject: Re: Wham, bam, thank you Sam
Reply-To: me
Organization: DSO, Stanford University
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 92 04:34:56 GMT

I read  *More Pricks than Kicks* a few months ago, so its still pretty  
fresh in my mind.  I loved it and I would be enthralled to read a  
discussion about it, and would dare add some comments of my own, but let  
it be known, I am no great commenter.
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.literary
From: lat1553@venus.tamu.edu (TEDESCO, LAUREEN ANN)
Subject: young female voices
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 14:59:00 GMT

I'm not sure quite what you're after, but I guess you've already
read _Diary of Anne Frank_?  Her voice is definitely there, although
I don't know whether you can actually HEAR that lilt and cadence
you're speaking of.
	I get the same kind of sense of a really young voice from
L.M. Montgomery's _Emily of New Moon_ books.  I don't know how
you are about reading "girls' fiction," but these are pretty good.
They're better than Montgomery's _Anne of Green Gables_ books, which
I do like.  Emily, though, is feistier and, I think, realer.  Montgomery's
books are experiencing a revival in popularity now, so you can find the
Emily books really easily in any mall bookstore.
	I knew if I kept writing this I'd think of something like what
you're describing: This same L.M. Montgomery's journals have been published
recently (in hardcover; check a university library), and they're great.
They start when she's about 14, and describe all the little flirtations
she has.  She just can't understand why a boy would propose to her
when she didn't give him any encouragement, just let him walk her home
from church four or five Wednesday nights in a row, in winter ...  Anyway,
that voice you mentioned is definitely there, in about the first half
of volume 1, and what she has to say is intriguing.  Especially because
later Montgomery becomes disillusioned about marriage, the possibility
of romance, etc.  Perhaps it's because two of the men she once thought
of marrying (but didn't) died soon after she refused them.  The journals
are much darker and more thoughtful than people would expect from
Montgomery, whom many think of as a sunshiny, starry-eyed woman writer
for young girls.  I hope I'm succeeding in getting you interested.
These journals are top-notch.  A word of warning, though: If you like
them, you'll have to suffer some frustration (only temporary, I hope):
volume 3 isn't out yet.
Laureen. 
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Date:         Sat, 3 Oct 1992 10:17:02 PDT
From:         LITERARY <LITERARY@CLOVIS.FELTON.CA.US>
Subject:      Re: Grapes of Wrath

Reply-to: Tim.Bowden@p0.f509.n216.z1.fidonet.org (Tim Bowden)
Fido-To: all


UP> Maybe I missed the answer to this: Someone asked a few posts back
UP> why the character was named "Rose of Sharon."  It's a biblical
UP> allusion


Also the name in the south for the primrose, I believe.

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Date:         Thu, 1 Oct 1992 10:23:38 EDT
From:         Tom Frenkel <FRENKEL@CPMAIL-AM.CIS.COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject:      The End of Culture
Comments: To: LITERARY@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu

Hi -- The *new* New Yorker, first issue, has just come out.  And
while I won't go into the way the thing looks in general (just too
painful to contemplate), I thought it was symbolic that the following
ad appears in this issue:

                I intended to write you a 14-line sonnet.
                But the words kept getting in the way.

This is an ad for a jeweler's.  So naturally, the guy buys a "diamond
design" for his friend instead ("available from $1000 to $5000").

This is all very sad, of course, and on multi levels, too.  It's bad
enough that we, as readers, are no longer expected to know how many
lines are in a sonnet.  But it is also just so depressing to
think that one should just go out and buy a substitute for one's
personal, creative, etc. etc...
                                            --Tom
-------
Tom Frenkel,    Columbia-Presbyterian Medical Center,
161 Ft. Washington Ave.,  DAP-1310,  New York, NY 10032-3784  USA
Internet:  FRENKEL@CPMAIL-AM.CIS.COLUMBIA.EDU
<<< Opinions expressed not necessarily those of my employer >>>
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Date:         Sat, 26 Sep 1992 18:26:31 -0400
From:         IAN YORK <YORK@MCMASTER.BITNET>

>            . . . I think that, with Beckett, the act of reading should never
>be so much an act of *explication* as one of enjoying the poetry and the sheer
>dilemma presented by his work.  Beckett's works amount to *states of being*,
>to be understood as such without *reducing* them to what we think we know off
>(of) our state of being, rather than approaching them as puzzles to be "solved"
>through the brio of explication.

>Michael Bruce (was mbmcd)


        Well said.  It's interesting that Beckett claimed to have written in
French first specifically because English is too poetic an language, because
he certainly is a remarkably poetic writer.  Your point that the plays etc
are to be taken as a whole (I was going to say gestalt, but I realized I don't
really know what that means) is a very good one.  However, I'm still interest-
ed in the technical aspects of mood creation etc.

        Ian
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From: lat1553@venus.tamu.edu (TEDESCO, LAUREEN ANN)
Subject: Grapes of Wrath
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Keywords: Rose of Sharon
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 14:54:00 GMT

Maybe I missed the answer to this: Someone asked a few posts back
why the character was named "Rose of Sharon."  It's a biblical allusion
(maybe you knew that): In the OT (Isaiah, I think, but one of the
longer prophetic books, anyway), the Rose of Sharon is one of the terms
referring to the Messiah.  Anyway, it's now, in Christian terminology,
applied to Christ (of course), which fits with the Christlike actions
y'all are noting in Steinbeck's character (I haven't read the book).

Laureen.  

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Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 19:02:23 EST
From:         The Dude <royald@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Wham, bam, thank you Sam
Comments: To: LITERARY@ucf1vm.cc.ucf.edu
              "S1MBM@ISUVAX.BITNET" at Sep 26, 92 4:28 pm

BECKETT!!

Anyone up for a discussion of his early fiction, e.g. MORE PRICKS THAN
KICKS, MURPHY, WATT?  These were his "English" works, written before
he turned exclusively--for all practical purposes--to French.  Any
takers?

Derek

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
	Derek Royal		      ><	"A single sentence will
	royald@mace.cc.purdue.edu     ><	suffice for modern man:
	English Department	      ><	he fornicated and read the
	Purdue University	      ><	papers."
	West Lafayette, IN    	      ><		   -- Albert Camus
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
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Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1992 21:05:50 -0500
From:         S1MBM@ISUVAX.BITNET
Subject:      Re: *The Lost Ones*

(Installment #2):


Consequences of this light for the searching eye. Consequences for the eye
which having ceased to search is fastened to the ground or raised to the
distant ceiling where none can be. The temperature. It oscillates with more
measured beat between hot and cold. It passes from one extreme to to the o
other in about four seconds. It too has its moments of stillness more or
less hot or cold. They coincide with those of the light. Then all go dead
still. It is perhaps the end of all. A few seconds and all begins again.
Consequences of this climate for the skin. It shrivels. The bodies brush
together with a rustle of dry leaves. The mucous membrane itself is affected.
A kiss makes an indescribable sound. Those with stomach still to copulate
strive in vain. But they will not give in.
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Date:         Fri, 2 Oct 1992 08:09:00 PDT
From:         naomi seeger <ECZ5SEE@UCLAMVS.BITNET>
Subject:      ce n'est pas le fin du monde

or even of life as we know it.  get a grip here.  i haven't had a chance
to read this week's new yorker, but i laughed out loud looking at the
cover - a srcuffy man in punk style reclining in a horse-drawn
carriage, with the driver, a middle-aged portly fellow in top hat, black
tie and suit, kinda doughfaced, hunched over the reins, with an air-head
half-surprised, half-uncomprehending look on his face.  not exactly
the barbarians at the gates, but close.

waddya say we actually *read* the issue, and a few more, before judging?
and not just the ads?

naomi seeger

ps- who said the new yorker had no liquor ads?  they've had grand marnier
ads for years.  remember the extravaganza one a few christmases back,
complete with music box?
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Date:         Fri, 2 Oct 1992 12:21:31 EDT
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From:         Pauline Hodges --D65 x2701-- <PRH65@CAS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: ce n'est pas le fin du monde
Comments: To: naomi seeger <ECZ5SEE@uclamvs.BITNET>

>waddya say we actually *read* the issue, and a few more, before judging?
>and not just the ads?

I've read a few of the articles, and glanced through some others.  They
definitely have some new writers and the style is different.  Trying to read it
in amongst page after page of grab-your-attention full page ads left me feeling
like I was in the middle of a shouting match, instead of in a soothing, peaceful
library the way the old New Yorker did.

Sigh...Maybe I'll get used to it....

Polly
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Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 14:51:56 EDT
From:         JACQUELINE VAN WILLIGEN <JVANW01@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject:      Re: children's lit.
              29 Sep 1992 17:24:19 PDT from <LITERARY@CLOVIS.FELTON.CA.US>

Teen girl's voices in books.  Try Francesca Block's valley girl-woman child for
 a very original sound in teen books.  The first one is Weetzie Bat. Another wo
nderful one is Ellen Foster by Kaye Gibbons, Algonquin press. The Scent of the
Gods by Fiona Cheong has moments that seem very real,very young,very feminine.
It is hard to find published material by very young women, but I am beginning t
o accept anyone born after 1960 as very young.  I guess I am posting this to th
e list, I have trouble figuring out who is asking what sometimes.  Hope no one
minds until I master this form of communication.
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Date:         Thu, 1 Oct 1992 11:02:44 EDT
From:         jcs <GE777009@BROWNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      the tale of the saucy monk

I'm trying to find the title of this horrendous book
which was reviewed in NYT BR several (maybe 4) months ago.

It was some huge epic set in Feudal Europe and depicts a
tale of a "saucy monk" and his travels.  Does anyone remember
the review? it was very very funny, and i'm sure the book isn't
nearly as funny as the review, but i'm looking for it nonetheless.

It had some Germanic sounding name, like Mogar, or Krull or something
equally cryptic.

I would like to recommend this book to our snotty elitist book club,
and was hoping i wouldn't have to go to the library and scan the book
reviews for the past 4 or 5 months.

Thanks in advance.

jenna cole steele
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Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 20:55:33 -0400
From:         IAN YORK <YORK@MCMASTER.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Wham, bam, thank you Sam

        Derek:  I'd be delighted to expand the discussion to include other
Beckett (and I think I'm versatile enough to carry on two Beckett works at
once).  I would prefer Watt, of the three that you mentioned: I haven't read
More Pricks Than Kicks, and I liked Watt better than Murphy.
        I thought Watt - as well as Godot - showed beckett's humour very
well (although there are sparks in most of his other works as well.)  Some
of Watt - the description of the frogs' noises, the possible permutations
of servants and master in and out of the house - was hilarious.  As well,
many of the themes he would later develop further were introduced in this,
while I think there were also some elements which never really appeared in
later work.  The playing with the mechanics of language, for example, only
has traces later on: perhaps the repetition in Godot and some of the other
plays (titles escape me) is an echo of that.
        Ian
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.literary
From: goldsman@cc.gatech.edu (Michael G. Goldsman)
Subject: Discussion on "The Grapes of Wrath"?
Reply-To: goldsman@cc.gatech.edu (Michael G. Goldsman)
Organization: College of Computing, Georgia Institute of Technology
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 16:37:51 GMT


I just finished "The Grapes of Wrath" last night and was
totally blown away by it...

I had seen the Fonda movie a few months ago and loved that, so I felt 
obliged to read the real thing. (plus I've been listening to Woody
Guthrie a lot lately...)

Things that were interesting to me...

Spoilers below if you havn't read the book and want to...


The very end when Rose of Sharon (what does that name mean anyway?)
feeds the starving man.  What's the symbolism ???

What about Casy and Tom's  feelings about everyone being a part of
"one big soul"  What religions influenced Steinbeck?
what were hgis feelings about communism... Did this book
cause trouble because of its left-leaning views?
How historically accurate is it? 

another thing I noticed was that a lot of the main characters
were downright unlikable -- especially Al with his constant
complaining... Rose of Sharon at times, and the two children..
Why did he make Al such an annoying character?

What was the signifigance of the Dead baby floating down the stream?

Questions questions questions...

Sorry this is so jumbled, but there are so many things I want to
ask about the book its hard to keep orderly.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Date:         Sun, 27 Sep 1992 20:05:06 -0500
From:         S1MBM@ISUVAX.BITNET
Subject:      Re: *The Lost Ones*

Abode where lost bodies roam each searching for its lost one. Vast enough
for search to be in vain. Narrow enough for flight to be in vain. Narrow
(scratch that last "Narrow")

Inside a flattened cylinder fifty metres round and eighteen high for the sake
of harmony. The light. Its dimness. Its yellowness. Its omnipresence as
though every separate square centimetre were agleam of the some eighty
thousand of total surface. Its restlessness at long intervals suddenly
stilled like panting at the last. Then all go dead still. It is perhaps the
end of their abode. A few seconds and all begins again.




These opening lines present a vagueness about the precise nature of the "lost
bodies" (*whose* bodies?) juxtaposed in remarkable tension with a discourse
which echoes that of logical positivism.  The discourse is positivistic
inasmuch as it betrays near obsession with detail:  the speaker is not content
merely to tell us how many metres round and high the cylinder is, but
carefully totals up its total surface area of "some eighty thousand"
centimetres.  Even so, the speaker is not just a kind of postivist, but has
a sort of Pythagorean concern with the mathematical "harmony" of the cylinder.

The light plays over the surface of the cylinder in a passing, cyclic fashion
that might suggest the searchlights of a concentration camp, but my desire
to link the work with Holocaust-like events is frustrated by the notion that
the "abode" that is this watertower-like cylinder is "vast enough" for "search
to be in vain."  So how can the *lost bodies* be precisely human when even
the blind would *eventually* find one another in such a structure?  Again, I
am amazed at way that a positivistic precision of detail is juxtaposed with
a kind of *absolute vagueness* in these opening lines.

Michael Bruce
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Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 15:40:00 EDT
From:         Sheba W Lowe <SWLOWE@UNC.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Discussion on "The Grapes of Wrath"?

The people on the bikes are cute!
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Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 11:16:14 CDT
From:         steve harris <SPAM@TAMVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Wham, bam, thank you Sam
              29 Sep 1992 19:02:23 EST from <royald@MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>

RE: Beckett

I read More Pricks many years ago, but if I think about it for a bit, I
may be able to make a comment or two.  I'll get back as soon as a
coherent thought occurs to me . . .

Steven Harris
spam@tamvm1
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Date:         Sun, 27 Sep 1992 15:33:12 -0500
From:         S1MBM@ISUVAX.BITNET
Subject:      *The Lost Ones*

Ian, I think that I overestimated my free-time in offering to type in *The
Lost Ones*, and underestimated the length of the work.  If those of us who
are particulary interested in this discussion all have access to the work
anyway, perhaps we could type in selected passages (always a tricky term
with reference to Beckett), rather than the whole durn thing?  *Does*
everyone who is interested have access to a coply.  Speak, o silentious
porpoises of the deep!

Michael Bruce
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Date:         Fri, 25 Sep 1992 21:07:06 -0400
From:         IAN YORK <YORK@MCMASTER.BITNET>
Subject:      Wham, bam, thank you Sam

        Scylla:  No harm done with the posting.  I'm not sure if anyone has
explicitly noted this to you yet (if so, sorry to be redundant) but there is,
in fact, a list specifically for criticism of poetry, started and running in
parallel to this one.  Uncle Timmie will be gald to give you directions, if
he hasn't already.

        To the group at large:  For some time I've wanted to discuss Beckett's
literature, and have hesitated to raise the topic.  This may be the time, as
there doesn't seem to be any hot n' heavy action elsewhere.
        There are two main reasons I've been hesitant to raise this topic.
1)  I know that there is a vast body of literature (incidentally, why is liter-
ature referred to as a body?) on Beckett and his work already.
2)  I'm not sure that anyone particularly understands him.

        When I read a Beckett play, story, poem, I always am moved by it in
some way.  However, I find it difficult to articulate the way in which I am
affected.  I'm not sure that it's possible to explain the "theme" behind this
stuff; it defines itself, and can't be explained in a shorter text.  By the same
token, I am dubious about dissecting out symbols and metaphors from the whole.

        I've been a Beckett fan for some 6 - 7 years, and in that time I haven't
been able to see any of his plays.  Perhaps this explains why I have trouble
explaining his effect.  I doubt it, though, since the novels have a similar
result.

        I'm sure there are people out there who are more experienced in this
sort of thing than I am.  If some of you think it will be worth the effort, I
would be very interested in going through some of Beckett's work in a fair
amount of detail.  I await a show of interest before proceding.

        If others out there feel this will bore them, we can switch the discuss-
ion to a private line.  However, I suspect this will mean missing some useful
insights.

        Any takers?

        Ian
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