HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.folklore.science
Subject: Re: Sig file (was: Re: Famous flame wars, examples please?)
From: alien@acheron.amigans.gen.nz (Ross Smith)
Date: 22 Dec 92 15:30:32 GMT+12
 <GOROKHO1.92Dec3052206@husc10.harvard.edu> <1992Dec5.102430.1602@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de> <1gqv3tINN6so@news.aero.org>
Distribution: world
Organization: Muppet Labs

In article <1gqv3tINN6so@news.aero.org> shag@aero.org (Robert M. Unverzagt) writes:
>In article <1992Dec5.102430.1602@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de> ig25@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de writes:
>>
>>              [stuff deleted]
>> --
>> Thomas Koenig, ig25@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de, ig25@dkauni2.bitnet
>> The joy of engineering is to find a straight line on a double logarithmic
>> diagram.
>
>I just noticed this sig and couldn't help commenting.  A guy
>I know points out that if something plots linearly on log-log
>paper, you've just discovered a law of nature.
>
>He plotted power-to-weight ratio vs. mean time to failure for
>all sorts of things -- alarm clocks, cars, gas turbines,
>Saturn V's, etc. on log-log paper.  You guessed it -- it's a
>line.

Well don't keep us in suspenders -- what's the equation?


--
...... Ross Smith (Wanganui, NZ) ...... alien@acheron.amigans.gen.nz ......

This is not a disclaimer, but it plays one on TV.

--

Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: dsiebert@icaen.uiowa.edu (Doug Siebert)
Subject: Re: PI
Organization: Iowa Computer Aided Engineering Network, University of Iowa
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 19:53:28 GMT

samuel@front.se writes:

>One interesting fact about PI (and most of the non-rational/non-algebraic)
>numbers is that since PI has an infinite number of decimals, which appear in
>a non-systemathic fashion, then statistically this statement ought to be 
>correct : Somwhere in the decimals of PI, one can find any given arbitrary
>sequence of numbers, e.g. 10^100 number 7 (7777...7777; 10^100 7s in a row) !

It isn't proven (to my knowledge at least) that PI is nonterminating.  If
those who calculate PI on and on hit a string of 10^100 0's they would
probably assume they have found all the digits of PI, wouldn't they?  But
they couldn't be *sure*! :-)

-- 
/-----------------------------------------------------------------------------\
| Doug Siebert                             | "I don't have to take this abuse |
| Internet:  dsiebert@isca.uiowa.edu       |  from you - I've got hundreds of |
| NeXTMail:  dsiebert@chop.isca.uiowa.edu  |  people waiting in line to abuse |
|     ICBM:  41d 39m 55s N, 91d 30m 43s W  |  me!"  Bill Murray, Ghostbusters |
\-----------------------------------------------------------------------------/
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: Jeffrey.Thorson <Jeffrey.Thorson@mixcom.mixcom.com>
Subject: Operating System Destiny
Organization: Milwaukee Internet Xchange BBS, Milwaukee, WI U.S.A.
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 11:32:16 GMT

Coincidence or _Something_ More?

Everyone is familiar with the mapping between
IBM and 2001 - A Space Odyssey's HAL

succ(H) = I
succ(A) = B
succ(L) = M

But what about:

succ(V) = W
succ(M) = N
succ(S) = T

where VMS is DEC's VAX operating system and
      WNT (Windows/NT) is Microsoft's current OS effort 
-- 
Jeffrey.Thorson@mixcom.com    | There are two rules for success:
Symmetrix Software, Inc.      |    1) Never tell everything you know.
                              |                      -- Roger H. Lincoln
                              |
From: magnus@thep.lu.se (Magnus Olsson)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Number of numbers (Was Re: PI)
Date: 2 Jan 93 09:49:08 GMT
Organization: Theoretical Physics, Lund University, Sweden

In article <1992Dec31.084528.12526@telesoft.com> kst@telesoft.com (Keith Thompson @pulsar) writes:
>In article <1992Dec30.010852.143@front.se> samuel@front.se writes:
>[...]
>> Now that I have thought some more about it, I'm modifying my statement to
>> be "ALMOST ALL trancendental numbers".

>I agree that "almost all" real numbers have pseudo-random decimal
>expansions, but I believe that the set of real numbers whose decimal
>expansions are not pseudo-random has the same cardinality as the set of
>all real numbers.  (Definitions of "almost all" and "pseudo-random" are
>left as an exercise for someone else.)  I'll use the term "pseudo-random
>number" for a real number whose decimal expansion is pseudo-random, and
>"non-random number" for any other real number.  For each pseudo-random
>number, one can generate a uniquely corresponding non-random number by,
>for example, inserting 0's into its decimal representation:

[rest of example deleted]

You're confusing two definitions of "random": 

One is that a number is random if its decimal expansion is in some
sense "unpredictable". 

Another is that a number is random if all N-digit sequences have the
same probability of appearing in its decimal expansion. (A number that
satisfies this is also called a "normal number").


I think that Samuel meant the first definition of randomness, not the
second one.

              Magnus Olsson                | \e+      /_
    Department of Theoretical Physics      |  \  Z   / q
        University of Lund, Sweden         |   >----<           
 magnus@thep.lu.se, thepmo@seldc52.bitnet  |  /      \===== g
PGP key available via finger or on request | /e-      \q
From: betsys@cs.umb.edu (Elizabeth Schwartz)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: WANTED: Ted Nelson's "Computer Lib / Dream Machines"
Date: 24 Dec 92 16:11:41 GMT
Organization: University of Massachusetts at Boston

Great book! I got my copy by describing it to every used bookseller I
could find, and waiting, and waiting....used booksellers who carry
rare books will do this sort of thing.
  The first edition came out in '74 and was self-published.
--
System Administrator                  Internet: betsys@cs.umb.edu
MACS Dept, UMass/Boston               Phone   : 617-287-6448
100 Morrissey Blvd                    Staccato signals
Boston, MA 02125-3393                      of constant information....
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: dannyb@panix.com (Daniel Burstein)
Subject: minor typo in my cdrom/ld post
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 11:38:42 GMT
Organization: Panix, NYC

meant to say 45 K /sec of audio CD, rather than the number that appeared. 
I'm not quite sure if this needs to be doubled for stereo, or if they have
some strange differential only coding in place.  (I've never understood
how stereo broadcast works. then again, I don't beleive in color tv either)
  
seriously... at first glance color tv should take three times the
bandwidth of monochrome, but in reality, they were able to fit it (NTSC,
the North American standard) into the original broadcst width, AND keep it
compatible with the older monochrome sets.  So there ways ways to "hideA"
additonal info in the primary signal.

dannyb@panix.com

Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: The NOVA and the PDP-11 (Was Re: WANTED: PDP-10 or 11)
From: rmk@rmkhome.UUCP (Rick Kelly)
Organization: The Man With Ten Cats
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 22:22:06 GMT
Reply-To: rmk@rmkhome.UUCP (Rick Kelly)

In article <1992Dec20.000558.23826@unislc.uucp> thayne@unislc.uucp (Thayne Forbes) writes:
>Seth the Lesser (slb22@cunixb.cc.columbia.edu) wrote:
>: tyzuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Tyzuk William N) writes:
>: >
>: >Lessee now... I think it was a CDC1700 mini that had a 256k word (??)
>: >drum (actually a disk but they called it a drum) which came with a plastic
>: >hammer and maintenance manual which prescribed tapping the cards with
>: >the hammer to cure intermittant faults!  This was an actual recommended and
>: >authorized maintenance procedure!  Sigh.... the good ol' days :-)  NOT.
>: 
>: Good ol' days my bleeding arse.  We have a pack of Sun SPARCstations here at
>: CTR with cut-rate hard drives that freeze up whenever we power down.  The best
>: way to unfreeze them (saith my boss, and I've seen him do it with excellent
>: results) is to tap them with a hammer.  Lightly, of course.
>: 
>This time honored maintenance technique was in real danger of becoming a 
>lost art a few years ago, but Apple came to our rescue and rejuvinated it
>with the introduction of Quantum 40 (and I think Quantum 80) drives, which
>regularly refused to spin up after cold boot.  At the time we (Unisys) were
>about to use the same drives in a $1 Billion PC contract, and I can tell you
>we didn't know whether to snicker about Apple, or sweat bullets because
>we couldn't figure out why they worked so well for us.  Turns out to have
>been an electrical problem (which some electrically literate Mac user will
>have to explain) which we didn't suffer from because of our monster power
>supplies.  We did suffer a few very nervous days investigating tho.


The actual problem, which affected certain lots of both the Quantum Pro-40S
and Pro-80S, was stiction, where the heads get stuck on the landing zone.
The cure was a new ROM from Quantum that changed the current curve on start
up and yanked the heads harder.  I fixed a lot of drives that way.

-- 

Rick Kelly	rmk@rmkhome.UUCP	unixland!rmkhome!rmk	rmk@frog.UUCP
From: uzun@crash.cts.com (Roger Uzun)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Number of numbers (Was Re: PI)
Date: 30 Dec 92 19:33:27 GMT
Organization: CTS Network Services (crash, ctsnet), El Cajon, CA

On a lighter note, my Amiga 4000 can calculate pi to
3000 digits in 46 seconds.  I have calculated it to 28,000 digits,
but I did not time that.

-Roger
--------------------------------------------------------------
bix: ruzun
NET: uzun@crash.cts.com
Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center
Date: Thursday, 24 Dec 1992 11:39:18 EST
From: Alexandre Pechtchanski <APPMS@CUNYVM.BITNET>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: IBMs true monsters?

In article <1992Dec21.204107.7851@vlsi.polymtl.ca>, d40937@boole (Jean Yves
Desbiens) says:
>
>Anyway, I found that the power that was given to me didn't help me
>that much because of monstrous nature of the system. It is not
>of developper's dream IMHO of course. Those systems are good for
IMHO, it's developer's nightmare (I can't imagine somebody flaming me
for that ;-).  I used to work on Soviet clones of the beasty, and
even used to think of them as of real computers (that was before we
bought PDP-11- ok, ok, I'm donning my asbesto suit already ;).
Yet, the only good thing that can be said about it is that newer
incarnations of IBM OS are even worse: the JCL is still there, but
an access to it is hidden and obstructed by supposedly user-friendly
bells and wistles.
-------

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Alex Pechtchanski, GCRC System Manager   Phone: (212) 241-1804
Mount Sinai Medical Center, New York  -------------------------
internet: desnick@msvax.mssm.edu      #include <std.disclaimer>
bitnet:   appms@cunyvm                
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Opinions?  If you find one, please let me know...
Speaking about famous flame war...  What is the chance that _this_
will start one?
From: too@laphroaig.cs.hut.fi (Tomi Ollila)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Non english BASIC for C64 (was Re: Non-English-based computer languages...)
Date: 31 Dec 92 12:22:52
Organization: /u/users10/too/.organization
Distribution: inet
	<Bz21KC.IoG@grex.ann-arbor.mi.us> <1992Dec11.112245.5728@pollux.lu.se>
	<18169@bcars664.bnr.ca> <1ht499EINNrgh@uni-erlangen.de>
NNTP-Posting-Host: laphroaig.cs.hut.fi
In-reply-to: kabreuer@cip.informatik.uni-erlangen.de's message of 30 Dec 92 21:28:09 GMT

In article <1ht499EINNrgh@uni-erlangen.de> kabreuer@cip.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Klaus Breuer) writes:

   I found an 'Afrikaans BASIC' for the C64 (on cartridge).
   Language structure etc was the same, just the commands were translated, for
   example 'GOTO' was 'GAAN NA' and so on.
   We had a good laugh with it - I never remembered seeing it used, though.

In C64 BASIC keywords were tokens numbered from around 170 to two hundred
something and those token numbers were shown in decimal dumped program
code. One could change the strings behind tokens and so get BASIC in
different human languages (or everything else one could think of).

Under some translated basic, programs are written w/ those translated
keywords, but also programs programmed w/ standard english basic and loaded
to translated basic system are translated. Also, programs written under
translated basic system in C64, has standard english CBM BASIC keywords in
normal system.

I remember laughing those fancy finnish keywords we made and programs
we wrote and loaded when "Finnish BASIC" was active.

Dmoo
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: peter@NeoSoft.com (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: using /bin/ed (Was Re: Famous flame wars, examples please?)
Organization: NeoSoft Communications Services -- (713) 684-5900
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 09:49:54 GMT

In article <BzMBIz.86J@cmcoa.uucp> god@cmcoa.uucp (0000-Admin(0000)) writes:
> In article <BzKEIz.GJD@NeoSoft.com> peter@NeoSoft.com (Peter da Silva) writes:
> >So what do they do when the system is sufficiently hosed that VI and EMACS
> >won't work? (like, no /etc/termcap and emacs startup files because they've
> >lost parts of /etc...) 'ed' works so long as you have '/bin/ed'. I'm used
> >to having "vi" in /bin, and still having to use it in "ex" mode.

> I'm probably being ignorant, but if my system was that hosed, I'd
> probably be reaching for 'cpio', not 'ed'.

Obviously a quiche-eater. You'd be amazed at what you can do to bring a system
back to life. We have one box here that had the first few tracks of the root
partition trashed (adding a disk and the diskadd utility hicupped and started
formatting drive 0 not drive 1), but there was enough left in the in-core inode
table to dd the system and oracle config files (which we'd spent the morning
tuning for the new disk) out, then I booted off floppy (YOU try fitting vi,
let alone emacs, on a boot floppy) and rebuilt the root partition by hand,
booted into single-user mode, and dd over my currently active root partition
from a near-twin system, and finally restore the configurations. Took a LOT
less time than restoring from backups.

> >Not to mention that most systems I've used haven't had enough disk space in
> >root to hold Emacs.

> Hmm.  The Emacs binary is only 583K on my i386-svr4,

Our root partitions are typically *just* big enough to hold the system, and
maybe 1/2M more. It's usually a stable file system (about the only things that
change are a few files in the original /tmp during boot, and last-read dates).
On our Xenix boxes free space on / is more like 150-200K.

And, again, you're not going to put that 583K on a boot floppy.
-- 
Peter da Silva.  <peter@sugar.neosoft.com>.
 `-_-'   Oletko halannut suttasi tnn?
  'U`    
Tarjoilija, tm ateria el viel.
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: peter@NeoSoft.com (Peter da Silva)
Subject: Re: New "Hello" program
Organization: NeoSoft Communications Services -- (713) 684-5900
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 10:26:03 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.034104.6798@monu6.cc.monash.edu.au> sloth@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Andrew Bulhak) writes:
> (alternatively, use the word 'whacker', whic the Jargon file says, is
> one who calls himself a wizard despite the opinions of everyone else...)

Outside of UMd that's "wannabe".
-- 
Peter da Silva.  <peter@sugar.neosoft.com>.
 `-_-'   Oletko halannut suttasi tnn?
  'U`    
Tarjoilija, tm ateria el viel.
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: dsiebert@icaen.uiowa.edu (Doug Siebert)
Subject: Re: CLI/GUI wars (was Re: Apple IIGS being discontinued...)
Organization: Iowa Computer Aided Engineering Network, University of Iowa
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 19:26:01 GMT

azog@spatula.rent.com (Billy D'Augustine) writes:

>You forget to mention the Atari ST. This is also a GUI based machine, 
>the GUI being GEM, and the OS being TOS (for 'the operating system' :-)
>which has a similar feel to MS-DOS.

I remember back in the early 80's when 8-bit Ataris were still big (and that
was all I had) the computer magazines started talking about the 68000 based
ST in development, and said TOS stood for Tramiel Operating System, named
after Jack Tramiel, who came on board Atari after Warner sold them.

-- 
/-----------------------------------------------------------------------------\
| Doug Siebert                             | "I don't have to take this abuse |
| Internet:  dsiebert@isca.uiowa.edu       |  from you - I've got hundreds of |
| NeXTMail:  dsiebert@chop.isca.uiowa.edu  |  people waiting in line to abuse |
|     ICBM:  41d 39m 55s N, 91d 30m 43s W  |  me!"  Bill Murray, Ghostbusters |
\-----------------------------------------------------------------------------/
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: john@gu.uwa.edu.au (John West)
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: PI
Date: 29 Dec 1992 03:05:12 GMT
Organization: The University of Western Australia
NNTP-Posting-Host: mackerel.gu.uwa.edu.au

samuel@front.se writes:

>One interesting fact about PI (and most of the non-rational/non-algebraic)
>numbers is that since PI has an infinite number of decimals, which appear in
>a non-systemathic fashion, then statistically this statement ought to be 
>correct : Somwhere in the decimals of PI, one can find any given arbitrary
>sequence of numbers, e.g. 10^100 number 7 (7777...7777; 10^100 7s in a row) !

The decimal expansion of the number SUM(10^-(n!)) is infinite, non-repeating,
and all that. The number isn't the square root of any rational (as far as I
know. If it is, I'm sure someone can find some other number that isn't), or 
anything like that. In other words, its a lot like PI.
I know I haven't done very much statistics, but I'm pretty sure you're not
going to find even 3 consecutive 7s in it.

John West
waiting for the mathematicians
--
For the humour impaired: Insert a :-) after every third word
From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: mean failure time vs power-to-weight ratio (was: Re: Sig file)
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 00:52:38 GMT
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology

[I don't normally read this group; a friend pointed out this discussion.]

shag@aero.org (Robert M. Unverzagt) writes:
>> >He plotted power-to-weight ratio vs. mean time to failure for
>> >all sorts of things -- alarm clocks, cars, gas turbines,
>> >Saturn V's, etc. on log-log paper.  You guessed it -- it's a
>> >line.
>Right -- higher power-to-weight decreases mean time to failure.  For
>a "typical" launch vehicle it was something like 4 hours between
>failures...

How does the plot look if you add the data point for a 16-inch naval gun?
(I don't know, offhand, how much one weighs... but it accelerates a ton
or so of shell to circa 1000 m/s in a very small fraction of a second...)
-- 
"God willing... we shall return."       | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
       -Gene Cernan, the Moon, Dec 1972 |  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: tmcbraye@thor.ece.uc.edu (Tim McBrayer)
Subject: Re: LD-ROM vs CD-ROM (as in LaserDisc)
Organization: University of Cincinnati
Distribution: alt
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 16:48:56 GMT

In article <KLUND.92Dec29162714@e40-008-7.mit.edu>, klund@athena.mit.edu (Kent H Lundberg) writes:
|> 
|> CDs can hold something like :
|> (75 minutes)x(60 sec)x(44.2 kHz)x(2 bytes (16bit))x(2 channels (stereo))
|> which comes out to 795M (this make sense because of formatting, blah, blah)
|> 
|> OK, so does anyone know how much a LaserDisc ROM system could hold?
|> (You can quote either per-side or per-disc.)
|> 
|> --> Kent Lundberg
Just having purchased a LD player, I was curious about this too.  There's
_almost_ enough information to tell, but I'm short a few numbers.  Here goes.

In CAV format (30 min per side), the video is recorded one frame per disc
revolution.  Also, the video picture is digitized at 425 lines per frame.
Two figures are missing: the horizontal digitization rate, and the bits per
pixel.  So, lets guess.  Since a television has a 4x3 aspect ratio, I'll
assume square pixels and use 425 x (4/3) = 567 pixels horizontal resolution.
Also, 24 bits is generally considered "true color."  This makes LD capacity
to be (at least on the order of):

(30 min)x(60 sec/min)x(30 frames/sec)x(567x425 pixel/frame)x(24 bit/pixel)
= 312,303,600,000 bits (3.123x10^11 bits)

which converts to ~291 Gb/side, CAV format.  Of course, CLV format plays for
60 min/side, making total possible data capacity ~582 Gb/side.  Accounting
for "formatting, blah, blah" overhead leaves 660Mb/795Mb = 0.83 of the disk
for data, at CD overhead rates.  This yields 582Gb x 0.83 = 483Gb.

Note also that this entirely ignores the digital and the analog audio tracks.

Of course, I may be incorrect on my numbers; I'd *love* for somebody to correct
me.  Also, somebody in document imaging, which uses LDs to store scanned 
documents on, may be able to shed some light on the topic.

E-mail responses welcome,
-- 
Tim McBrayer                                tmcbraye@thor.ece.uc.edu
Computer Architecture Design Laboratory     (513) 556-0904
University of Cincinnati
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers
From: dsiebert@icaen.uiowa.edu (Doug Siebert)
Subject: Re: CLI/GUI wars (was Re: Apple IIGS being discontinued...)
Organization: Iowa Computer Aided Engineering Network, University of Iowa
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 22:34:11 GMT

aj923@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (P. J. Remner) writes:


>In a previous article, dem@cs.princeton.edu (Doron Meyer) says:

>>
>>However, starting with System 7.0, Apple has included AppleEvents in the
>>MacOS.  AppleEvents are a form of interapp communication that allow apps
>>to control other apps.  Frontier is a top-notch, fully featured
>>script language that supports AppleEvents.  You can, for instance, have it
>>open up a document in Microsoft Word, select a printer, and print.  More
>>and more apps are adding more than the standard necessary events (like
>>open a document, save, quit) to allow control by apps like Frontier.  For
>>instance, one can control Stuffit, a compression utility, completely by
>>AppleEvents.  To my knowledge, there is no other OS that supports a CLI
>>actively controlling GUI applications.
>>

>Interesting.  Sounds like a cross between the Windows 3.1 FIle Manager
>and the Print Manager.  I double-click on a file icon, and FM automatically
>opens that file's application, loaded with the file.  If I want to print
>something, all I have to to is click and drag the file icon to the Print
>Manager icon/window, and Print Manager opens the file's app, loads the
>file, prints it, and shuts down the app.  And it's about as slow as a
>gazelle with a cheetah behind it.  (And I don't want to hear about the
>Mac being the cheetah, because GAZELLES CAN OUTRUN CHEETAHS.)

You are completely missing the point the poster was trying to make.  The Mac
has been able to do what you describe from System 1.0 on (probably the Lisa
did this as well)  Not to say Apple invented this, it was probably present in
the Xerox Star, but it did it long before Windows, certainly.

What the poster was trying to get across is that you could have a script that
could run and do things within the GUI without requiring any interaction.  You
could use AppleScript (if I understand how it will work correctly) to have one
action open up an application, load a file, format it correctly, print it,
remove that file, close the application, open another, do something else, save
it to floppy, and eject the floppy.  This isn't something a CLI can't do, of
course, but doing this stuff inside a GUI environment is a new capability, and
one that Windows certainly doesn't provide.

-- 
/-----------------------------------------------------------------------------\
| Doug Siebert                             | "I don't have to take this abuse |
| Internet:  dsiebert@isca.uiowa.edu       |  from you - I've got hundreds of |
| NeXTMail:  dsiebert@chop.isca.uiowa.edu  |  people waiting in line to abuse |
|     ICBM:  41d 39m 55s N, 91d 30m 43s W  |  me!"  Bill Murray, Ghostbusters |
\-----------------------------------------------------------------------------/
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,alt.religion.computers