From: sethr@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (seth.r.rosenthal)
Subject: Re: Jews without Jesus
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 17:38:38 GMT

In article <emc.724427600@ro>, emc@doe.carleton.ca (Eli Chiprout) writes:
> Many of you have asked me [ :-) ]
> so I will answer...
> 
> Why Jews should NOT accept Jesus over Moishe Finkelstein:
> 
> 1. It is impossible to determine for certain
>    whether Jesus existed as an individual.  While the
>    proof seems reasonable that he did, there are serious
>    theses that he did not, but was a story invented to
>    continue a secret worship society's database
>    (see The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross by John Allegro)
> 
> 2. If he existed, 
>    Jesus preached against what he perceived as religious abuse 
>    of his day (even according to the Christian Gospels) and
>    did not go about forming a new set of beliefs.  He preached
>    the good old Jewish themes of loving God with all your heart
>    and loving your neighbour as yourself, something that Judaism
>    has accepted long ago.
> 
> 3. It is debatable whether Jesus himself claimed to be the Messiah,
>    even among Christians.  It seem rather that his followers laid
>    that claim upon him.  But this is nothing new, and was seen to
>    happen with other Jewish individuals throughout history, especially
>    in times of political turmoil and uncertainty.
> 
> 4. Any claims upon Jesus by his followers were then seen in retrospective
>    in the Hebrew Bible.  They saw Jesus right, left, and center.  Every
>    verse came to refer to him, in context, or out of context.  This
>    is very similar to what his followers do today.  This includes attributing
>    to him all sorts of miracles and sayings that it is doubtful that
>    he did or said (even according to Christian theologians).
> 
> 5. All followers of Jesus in the years preceding and shortly following
>    his death were Jews.  They attended synagogue and they offered 
>    sacrifices.  The Temple was not destroyed utill 40 years after the
>    supposed date of death of Jesus.
> 
> 6. It was much later, that followers of Jesus such as Paul, and 
>    especially missionaries, began to completely twist the teachings
>    of Jesus out of recognizable proportions.  It is widely recognized
>    that the theology of Paul and of later so-called apostles were
>    completely different from the simple teachings of Jesus.
> 
> 7. In the centuries that followed, the followers of Jesus, seeing the
>    lack of interest of Jews in general, began to open the following
>    to gentiles.  At this point, Jesus became a greater than life myth
>    completely unrelated to what he was -- a simple man.  Paul and
>    others began to transform Jesus as part of the Godhead.  Gentiles
>    brought all sort of beliefs into the now formed churches.
> 
> 8. While the original followers of Jesus kept the Sabbath and attended
>    synagogue, they continued their meetings to Sunday.  When gentiles
>    became involved, and the Jews showed no interest, the day of getting
>    together became established as Sunday.
> 
> 9. Once these churches got established, formed a church government, and
>    transformed the Passover (which was being kept by early Christians
>    -- see the Quatrodeciman controversy) into Easter, accepted the
>    involvement of the government of the State, added Christmas observence,
>    decided that Jews were the ones who murdered Jesus, organized
>    crusades to conquer Jerusalem while killing thousands of Jews along
>    the way, organized pogroms to devastate Jewish villages, etc.  then
>    this was now a completely and totally new religion very, very far
>    removed from Jesus.
> 
> Summary:  Jesus if he existed, was criticized what he perceived as
>           religious abuses of his day.  He was a man, and dies a man,
>           no different, than others who have criticized aspects of
>           Jewish practice.  His followers, by a series of myths,
>           decisions, and changes heaped one on top of the other, created
>           a religion completely different than the simple ideas
>           of Jesus.
> 
> 
> 

Good Posting!

Another little tidbit for those who like cross-cultural sourcing.

The Northern Indian and Pakistani community have a sect of Muslims
called the Ahmadi.  It is currently a topic of discussion on
other billboards.  It is interesting to see what they believe about
Jesus.  Jews I have met from India confirm that they believe
Jesus died in India in about 80 C.E. and was buried in Northern
India, the place is still considered a minor shrine.  He had
apparently visited as a teenager, and returned later with someone
they claim was Thomas.  Ancient texts refer to him as Issa.
No miracles, just lots of moral teaching, no claims of messiah,
but the writer I cite below speculates that he was searching for
the Israelite Tribes (and apparently Afghanistan/Pakistan is the
right place to look).  They never came back, so he clearly failed in his
mission.

For anyone who can get books from India, try "The Mystery of the
10 Lost Tribes" by Benjamin Yehoshua (sp?) published
in Calcutta.  I was fortunate to get a copy, and he talks about
Lost Tribe myths and legends, as well as more likely cases
like the Pathans.

		Seth Rosenthal

Disclaimer: All opinions are my own not my employers'.

Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish