HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: peters@physics.ubc.ca (Dan Peters)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Hobbits (was Re: Bombadil)
Date: 12 Jan 1993 00:56:01 GMT
Organization: The University of British Columbia
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: physics.ubc.ca

Greg Skinner writes:

>Jim Chokey says that he does not believe that hobbits fit in the
>Silmarillion.  I'd like to point out that hobbits (halflings) are
>mentioned in the Silmarillion, but not in the Quenta Silmarillion.

They're mentioned, but they don't "fit". There's no indication of their
place in the grand scheme of things. (And they are only mentioned in
"Of The Rings of Power and the Third Age", which is just a summary of
TLotR (and its Third Age background) written in Silmarillion style, and
appended to The Silmarillion for the sake of completeness.)

Drin
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I think I think, therefore I think I am." 
- Descartes' failed attempt to discard the notion of objective reality.
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Lines: 12
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 14:59:21 MST
From: ashworth@zuni.math.byu.edu (ashworth nathan)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Breeding Dragons (was Re: Bombadil)

In article <1993Jan11.105235.28885@news.uit.no> dago@stud.cs.uit.no (Dag-Frode  
Olsen) writes:
> I do not think dragons reproduce, but my impression is that they 
> was 'made' by The Dark One during the first age as a mocking of
> the eagles, like the orcs was a mocking of the elves.
> 
> Any comments???
	From what I read in the Silmarillon, the first dragons,  like 
Glaurung,  could not fly and only when the final battle occured did 
Melkor release the " Winged Worms "

	Nathan
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk)
Subject: Re: A question
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 15:43:24 GMT

klaus@diku.dk (Klaus Ole Kristiansen) writes:
>>Why was Frodo singled out in the attack in Moria?
>Now that is a harder question. Why would first the watcher
>in the water and then an orc single out Frodo? Ideas anyone?
>Klaus O K

Perhaps because the Ring could, like Sauron, command the forces of Mordor
(and many evil creatures not allied to Sauron) just by its presence?  It
managed to scare away the orc in Minas Morgul without Sam doing much.  I
would assume a ring-bearer would be in danger just by wearing it, as
Isildur was with that orc-arrow.  The Ring, if it didn't like who had it,
probably increased the accuracy and combat ability in general of the forces
of Mordor nearby.  I would imagine it also subtly increased the greed of the
orcs of Minas Morgul, starting that war over Frodo's belongings, but I'm
not sure about this one.

					Michael Lewchuk
					lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA
Organization: Penn State University
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 14:56:16 EST
From: Mumbles <JXD132@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Hobbits (was Re: Bombadil), and Maiar/N

Reading the discussion about the "power" of Noldor vs. Mair, there are
also cases where the Noldor out do even the Valar.  Particularly Feanor who
creates the Simarils which not even Aule could copy.  The Valar are
god-like in many ways, but they don't appear to be omnipotent.

One other point about Gandalf and the Balrog.  Gandalf says "A Balrog.  Now
I understand."  I always took that to mean that he didn't know what it was at
the door, he just knew it was strong.  Now he knew what it was.

--Jim
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: sodonnell@UMASSD.EDU (Sandy O'Donnell)
Subject: Re: Question: LOTR Wizards
Reply-To: sodonnell@UMASSD.EDU
Organization: UMASS DARTMOUTH, NO. DARTMOUTH, MA.
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 19:44:19 GMT

In article <1993Jan4.015131.18272@leland.Stanford.EDU>, alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson) writes:
>writing from the office and only remember an initial "D," probably incorrectly)
>for that element, and the one that fell into a crack in the earth during a
>battle which fell to the center of the earth.
>
>This last is referred to as the Secret Fire.
>
>As for the Flame of Anor:  That's the Sun, folks, opposed to Udun "Shadow."
>Nothing hard about it at all.  The Sun, after all, was introduced after a long
>period of nought but (weak) starlight, and is precisely the correct weapon and
>threat to use against a creature of the Enemy.
>-- 
>Rich Alderson   'I wish life was not so short,' he thought.  'Languages take


Ah, Rich I'm afraid you're wrong. Ur is the Sun,  from The Book of Lost
Tales I. Also The secret fire is the Holy Spirit, I'll quote from LT
book I again : Iluvatar said to the Ainur:
"I have not filled all the empty spaces,
neither have I recounted to you all the adornments and things of
loviliness and delicacy whereof my mind is full. It is my desire now
that ye make a great and glorious music and a singing of this theme:and
(seeing that I have taught you much and set brightly the Secret Fire 
within you) that ye exercise your minds and powers in adorning the theme
to your own thoughts and devising."
 BTW, I think the Brothers Hidelbrandt have done fabulous illustrations.
I have a book which has Gregg Hildebrandt wishing JRRT was alive to see
if he would have been pleased with GH's drawings as he tried as best as
possible to stay true to the characters descriptions.
  AS for your pointy eared theory, I can't find any description of elves
having pointy ears in ME, but My old fairy tale books always depict 
elves with pointy ears........Sandy

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: sodonnell@UMASSD.EDU (Sandy O'Donnell)
Subject: Re: Question: LOTR Wizards
Reply-To: sodonnell@UMASSD.EDU
Organization: UMASS DARTMOUTH, NO. DARTMOUTH, MA.
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 17:54:32 GMT

In article <MICROSOC.93Jan7125107@black.ox.ac.uk>, microsoc@ox.ac.uk (Andrew D McMurry=) writes:
>In article <C0G6tw.5Gu@umassd.edu> sodonnell@UMASSD.EDU (Sandy O'Donnell) writes:
>   ...
>
>   Ah, Rich I'm afraid you're wrong. Ur is the Sun,  from The Book of Lost
>   Tales I. Also The secret fire is the Holy Spirit, I'll quote from LT
>   book I again : Iluvatar said to the Ainur: 
>	b)	There is more than one language in Middle Earth. Peoples and
>		things names are different in Quenya, Sindarin, Khuzdul,
>		Black Speech, Adunaic etc.
>

>	Andrew


Hmmmmm o.k. I was wr...... you know that word that means not quite right.
I found..Sari...Lamp of Vana..Ur..Galmir...Glorvent...Braglorin...,
and her name amoung Men no man has counted. I still say the flame of
Anor was the Holy Spirit...so there. Of course I could still be proven
wr...(that word again)......................Sandy
*****************************************************************************
All that is gold does not glitter,
  Not all those who wander are lost;  jrrt
                                    
                                     I sit beside the vax and think
                                      of all that I have read
                                     Of posts and replies and silly sigs
                                      and wonder where I'll be led
From: ses2@po.CWRU.Edu (S. E. Stansfield)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: The necromancer in The Hobbit
Date: 5 Jan 1993 16:56:46 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: ses2@po.CWRU.Edu (S. E. Stansfield)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc12.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, maze@diku.dk (Mads Haahr) says:

>I recall that when Gandalf left Bilbo and the dwarves on their way to
>Smaug, it was to drive away a necromancer from the southern part of
>Mirkwood.
>
>I was wondering if this character might be an early appearance of Sauron
>or one of his minions.
>
>Any comments on this?
>
It is certainly Sauron.  Gandalf refers to him in this way at the council
of Elrond.  There is also a long description of the whole affair of G.
entering Dol Guldur and finding out who is the master there in _The
Unfinished Tales_ (The Quest For Erebor).  That was when G. meets Thrain 
and gets the map and key that are used in The Hobbit.  

At that time, there were also some of the Nazgul there.  The rest of the
Nazgul were in Minas Mogul under the leadership of the witch-king.  


-- 
When subtlety fails us we must make do with cream pies.
                                                    --David Brin

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: dwight@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Dwight Robert Stone)
Subject: Re: Ent Nature (Was Orcs in the Last Alliance)
Keywords: Ents, trees
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 21:18:54 GMT

det@bigbootay.sw.stratus.com (David Toland) writes:

>In article <lewchuk.725788102@therien> lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk) writes:
>[
>Strange.  In LoTR, Fangorn specifically states that Huorns are becoming
>Entish and Ents are becoming Huornish all the time: that sentient Ents were
>losing their sentience and subsentient Huorns were becoming more sentient.
>Furthermore, there seems to be no distinction between "Ent", "Huorn" and
>"tree", other than Ents are sentient, Huorns are subsentient, and trees
>are non-sentient (and immobile).  Perhaps there is a distinction between
>Ent and Tree that is not present in LoTR, but there seems to be none between
>Huorn and Ent.

I thought that the Ents were getting more and more Huronish and the Hurons
were getting more and more tree-like.  This follows in with the "middle-earth
became our world" theme (e.g. the hobbits becoming more and more man-like,
the elves leaving, magic fading, etc...)

>Also, about orcs vs. elves and trolls vs. ents:  I haven't read much of
>the Silmarillion, but Fangorn spoke of trolls being made "in mockery
>of ents, as orcs were of elves."  This says to me that orcs are *not*
>ruined elves, but some other creature twisted to a dark caricature
>of elvenkind.

I believe that the orcs were created by Morgoth by Morgoth caputuring some
elves and doing some magical genetic engineering on them and then breeding
them.  Evil cannot create; it can only corrupt.  Only good has the power to
create new things; thus, in theory, the trolls might've been made from
captured ents?  Of course the orcs are closer to elves than the trolls are
to the ents.  An orc is much more of a match for an elf than a troll is for
an ent, so apparently the job wasn't as successful (though trolls are more
active, though they do have their sunlight weakness....  I wonder if that
came from the ents: The ents enjoy and grow from the sunlight while the
trolls are killed by it.  It is a 180 degree reversal.)

dwight@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu  (my nn only occasionaly like to include my .sig)
-- 
Dwight Stone                  I generally prefer my coffee without tentacles.
dwight@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu       Cthulhu for new University of Illinois mascot!
ORQ: "Those who know what's best for us must rise and save us from ourselves"
Grim thought of the day:  Life is just death's way of laughing up its sleeve.
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: carl@class.gsfc.nasa.gov (Carl F. Hostetter)
Subject: Elven ears _are_ leaf-shaped
Followup-To: alt.fan.tolkien
Organization: NASA/GSFC
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 14:12:13 GMT

The answer was in _Etymologies_ after all (_The Lost Road_, pp. 367-8):

"LAS1- _*lasse:_ leaf: Q _lasse_, N _lhass_ .... (Some think this is
 related to the next [entry] and *_lasse:_ 'ear'. The Quendian ears
 were more pointed and leaf shaped than [?human].)

"LAS2- listen. N _lhaw_ ears ... Q _la'r_, _lasta-_ listen ...."

|===================================================================|
|         Carl F. Hostetter      carl@class.gsfc.nasa.gov           |
|                                                                   |
|                    Ars longa, vita brevis.                        |
|          The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.            |
|  "I wish life was not so short," he thought.  "Languages take     |
|  such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about."  |
|===================================================================|
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: erikt@sci.kun.nl (Erik van de Tier)
Subject: Re: shape of Ea before end of second era ?
Organization: University of Nijmegen, The Netherlands
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 08:57:11 GMT

Paul Gunderson writes,

>"`Behold your music!' And he showed to them a vision, giving to them sight
>where before was only hearing; and they saw a new World made visible before
>them, and it was >globed< amid the Void, and it was sustained therein, but
>was not of it."

Yep, I think you got me the answer. This description also agree's with
the description of Ea in 'The Book of lost tales Part I'.
In the Dutch translation on the Silmarillion Ea is descripted as 'bol',
according to me the English word that comes closest to 'bol' is sphere.
So I think it *is* a problem of translation, the meaning of the words
'bol'(N) and 'globe'(E) are not absolutely the same (I must admit, that until
now, I didn't know that there was a slight difference in meaning (I think
I'll have to ask somebody (who knows more about this) to explane me the 
detailes)).
(I think I'll have to buy an English version of the Silmarillion as well!)

Thank's for the help!!

______________________________________________________________________________
Erik van der Tier (erikt@sci.kun.nl)
From: sam4628@iam.unibe.ch (S. A. McCluney)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Hobbits (was Re: Bombadil), and Maiar/N
Date: 11 Jan 1993 21:15:39 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, University of Berne, Switzerland
Distribution: world
Reply-To: sam4628@iam.unibe.ch
NNTP-Posting-Host: chensun2m.tamu.edu

In article 14652@hubcap.clemson.edu, jdelcol@eng.clemson.edu (delcollo joseph j) writes:
>
>feanor was slain by Balrogs, caught by them with a small party when he got rash and ran ahead of every one else supposedly. The balrogs are of different power apparently, like the Maia. Some Balrogs, like the one that confronts Gandalf, are quite powerful others almost like enhanced orcs, like the one Ecthelion(?) kills in the fall of Gondolin. The balrogs were spirits of fire corrupted by Melkor, strange that they all went to his side and none remained loyal. In addition they 
...


Actually, not all of them went over to Melkor (e.g. the one responsible for
porting the Sun across the sky).  Also, the Maiar probably come with various
levels of ability/power, affected by their current circumstances.  When
Gandalf faced the Balrog, he remarked that he was 'already tired', putting
him at a disadvantage in a fight with a virtual equal.

Steven M.
From: ses2@po.CWRU.Edu (S. E. Stansfield)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Galadriel, was Re: Bombadil etc.
Date: 5 Jan 1993 17:16:40 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: ses2@po.CWRU.Edu (S. E. Stansfield)
NNTP-Posting-Host: slc12.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk) says:

>
>First of all, I'd like to ask why Galadriel was banned from Valinor and why
>her refusal of the Ring was her redemption.
>
According to _The Unfinished Tales_, the story of Celeborn and Galadriel is
full of difficulties, it went through many phases and changed quite a bit
in the course of it's creation.

Some things seem to be evident though:
1) She is descended from Finwe and is therefore of the Noldor.
2) She was present at the kinslaying but was not a participant, this is the
reason that she was banned from Valinor.
3) It is unclear wether she went with Feanor to middle earth or followed
Fingolfin.
4) She probably lived in Doriath (where Celeborn came from), there is also
evidence that she lived in Nargothrond and/or Gondonlin.
5) She moved east before the great battle where Thangorodrim was destroyed,
it was at this time that Laurelindorian (later, Lothlorian) was created.
6) She wore one of the three.  She also argued in council against the three
being used.
7) She was allowed to return to Valinor because she refused to accept the
ruling ring when it was offered to her.
-- 
When subtlety fails us we must make do with cream pies.
                                                    --David Brin
Organization: University of Maine System
Date: Monday, 11 Jan 1993 20:46:56 EST
From: <IO20746@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: shape of Ea before end of second era ?

I think another important little tidnit that should be kept in mind-
JRR Tolkien did not complete the Silmarillon, he passed away
(unfortunately) before it's completion and his son, Christopher
completed the work. While I don't know if that applies to the
particular debate, I think it should be kept in mind that any
inconsistencies found could be the result of the change in authors.
Anyways godd fantasizing (heh)

eric
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: kthompso@kronos.arc.nasa.gov (Kevin Thompson)
Subject: Re: Hobbits (was Re: Bombadil), and Maiar/Noldor power
Organization: NASA/ARC Information Sciences Division
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 19:39:29 GMT

In article <1993Jan11.153157.9218@cs.ucla.edu> gds@cs.ucla.edu (Greg Skinner) writes:
>Jim Chokey says that he does not believe that hobbits fit in the
>Silmarillion.  I'd like to point out that hobbits (halflings) are mentioned
>in the Silmarillion, but not in the Quenta Silmarillion.

Sure, but Chris Tolkien points out in the Silmarillion's preface that "Of the
Rings of Power and Third Age" and "Alkallabeth" (whatever) should be
considered "separate works", or some such.  I think when people here talk
about "The Silmarillion" we can understand them to mean the "Quenta
Silmarillion", which is a unified work.  They "Of the Rings of Power" is a
weird chapter, I am not a serious Tolkien scholar who understands when he
wrote what, but it seems like this was an effort to patch together the two
worlds a bit.

Second, while I'm doing my first post to this group.  This group inspired me
to read LOTR, Silmarrillion, and Unfinished Tales for the first time in 10+
years.  One thing that really confuses me is, for want of a better phrase,
the hierarchy of power amongst the races.  In particular, I gather that the
Maiar, who are of the same race (order?) as the Valar, should be thought of
as being more powerful than any of Iluvatar's children, in particular any
elves.  Yet Feanor almost fights off, as I recall, several Balrogs
simultaneously (and Glaurung?); Glorfindel (the first one) destroys the chief
of the Balrogs.  On the other hand, Gandalf/Olorin, a pretty high Maia, is
terrified by a single Balrog, and destroyed by it.  I know Gandalf is
limited as an Istari to show his full power, but on the other hand it seems
weird for the Valar to allow him to get in a position where he's in single
combat with a Balrog yet not allow him to use all he's got, as it were.

So, at any rate, I'm wondering if others have thoughts about this.  Are the
most powerful Noldor more powerful than Maiar?  Actually, I find Tolkien's
whole notion of power confusing or inconsistent , sometimes it seems this
great, mysterious ability to control others (Sauron, past the first age, acts
almost completely through surrogates), sometime it seems to mean having a
great weapon (ax, bow, sword) of some sort.  Having Fingolfin (?) and Melkor,
both depicted as having great "power" in non-physical ways, fight in a
straight sword-and-shield fight, seems strange.

Kevin Thompson

-- 
kthompso@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov     Artificial Intelligence Research Laboratory
(415) 604-4767 (voicemail)        NASA-Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA
From: d90-two@dront.nada.kth.se (Thomas Wolmer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Breeding Dragons (was Re: Bombadil)
Date: 12 Jan 93 16:16:09 GMT
Organization: Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden

In article <1993Jan11.105235.28885@news.uit.no> dago@stud.cs.uit.no (Dag-Frode Olsen) writes:
>I do not think dragons reproduce, but my impression is that they 
>was 'made' by The Dark One during the first age as a mocking of
>the eagles, like the orcs was a mocking of the elves.
>
>Any comments???
>
Yes... in the Appendixes it's said that the dragons "grew strong and
*multiplied*" (my asterisks, not JRRT's), before they started attacking
the dwarves in the Grey Mountains.

Among living creatures, the most common way of multiplying is by
reproduction :-)

-- 
 _.^._  |\_|\_|\ V2.0 /|_/|_/|"There's no tomorrow,           |
[_<X>_] Thomas Wolmer        | just sadness and sorrow        |
  !_!   d90-two@nada.kth.se  | Hold on to the Ancient Dreams" |
  IOI   Angantyr on IRC      |  - Candlemass "Ancient Dreams" |
From: chrisley@oxford.ac.uk (Ronald L Chrisley)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Redemption in LOTR
Date: 4 Jan 93 15:34:52 GMT
	<1992Dec31.003012.3254@netlabs.com> <1992Dec31.055957.879@netcom.com>
Organization: School of Cognitive & Computing Sciences, Univ. of Sussex
In-reply-to: solovay@netcom.com's message of 31 Dec 92 05:59:57 GMT

In article <1992Dec31.055957.879@netcom.com> solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay) writes:

   I think the best example of redemption, by this definition, is
   from the first age: Earendil's voyage to Valinor. In fact, this
   is as close to a Christ figure as we can find. He intercedes
   between God (well, gods, i.e. Valar) and Man (well, Men and Elves).
   He thus redeems the whole of Middle-Earth, which is in Satan's
   (er, Morgoth's) power. He has to pay a heavy price: He is
   separated from all his family and cannot dwell in Valinor or
   Middle-Earth; instead he has to sail in the sky until the end.

Another important redemption is Luthien's sacrifice of immortality for
Beren's resurrection.  It is only a redemption of a single human, for
a finite duration of time, but, in the words of Tolkien, "it is made
all the more precious thereby".


--
Ronald L. Chrisley  ronc@cogs.susx.ac.uk
COGS, University of Sussex
Falmer, Brighton, BN1 9QH, UK