HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: m23364@mwunix (James Meritt)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia
Subject: Re: The mess WE created.
Date: 14 Dec 92 21:26:31 GMT
Organization: MITRE Corporation, McLean VA

In article <1766500003@igc.apc.org> dmorse@igc.apc.org (Dorothy Morse) writes:
}My information is that Somalia has periodically had droughts
}throughout its history, and had developed ways of coping with them
}through centuries of experience.  But because their old society was
}first uprooted by colonialism and then by superpower military aid, the
}old ways of coping could no longer be used.  They have also had clan
}warfare for centuries, but on a small scale that didn't disrupt their
}ability to survive.

The old ways like "dope yourself into marginal unconsciousness so you
don't care", right?  A shame that qat doesn't grow in Somolia. 

Anyway, now it is easier to kill.  Before, only a few.  Now even a fool.
Nobody in particular to blame - that little stunt happens wherever humans
walk.
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia,alt.politics.org.un,alt.president.clinton,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.bush
From: carlson@viking.sps.mot.com (Brett Carlson)
Subject: Re: Somalia
Organization: SPS
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 21:40:35 GMT

Please read *all* articles on a thread before posting.  My original  
note had spawned several generations of replies.

I normally would have ignored this post, but i feel obligated to  
comment on a couple of issues.  Follow-ups to alt.flame....

--brett

**bunch of stuff deleted, because it refered to stuff that i'd  
already hashed out in previous posts**

> 	Could it be that those who oppose this operation
> 	just don't care if black people live or die?
> 
> 	Nah, it couldn't be *racism*....

I shouldn't even glorify this inane remark with a reply. 

But if you had bothered read my subsequent posts you would have seen  
my reasons for opposing the action.  Racism doesn't even enter into  
the picture.


> 	The Somalian "hillbillies" are carrying automatic weapons
> 	themselves; CNN showed quite a few with Kalashnikov rifles,
> 	for example, as well as DSK machineguns. 

and M-16's provided by everybody's favorite superpower.

 
> 	Gosh, maybe being President of the US is a tough job?
> 
> 	I reckon that Clinton is a big boy who can figure it out...
> 	but then, he doesn't post to Internet from Motorola, either.


Or from the New Mexico State University Computer Science Department.   
What's your point??
 
> 	Wonderful; such a display of caring and kindness, not
> 	to mention intelligence. 

This thread has been blessed with very intelligent debate for the  
past four days that i've been monitoring it, and I presume long  
before that.  If you had bothered to read the entire thread before  
spouting off, you would have discovered that.

--brett
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia
From: egl1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Elizabeth G. Levy)
Subject: Re: The mess WE created.
Reply-To: egl1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Elizabeth G. Levy)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 23:08:58 GMT

In article <1766500003@igc.apc.org> dmorse@igc.apc.org (Dorothy Morse) writes:
>
>My information is that Somalia has periodically had droughts
>throughout its history, and had developed ways of coping with them
>through centuries of experience.  But because their old society was
>first uprooted by colonialism and then by superpower military aid, the
>old ways of coping could no longer be used.  They have also had clan
>warfare for centuries, but on a small scale that didn't disrupt their
>ability to survive.

Old societies would have had higher infant mortality rates, which
would have kept the population more in line with what the food supply
can support.  Perhaps the argument should be, because of modern
medicine, we now have a famine when the food supply is disrupted by
war, drought, etc.  It is unlikely that the "old society" would have
sustained a population of 1.5 million.




_Home Alone 2_ has now grossed over $90 million.

	** Macaulay Culkin: HE MUST BE STOPPED !!!! **
Xref: sparky alt.current-events.somalia:535 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:10197 misc.test:14277 alt.politics.org.un:156 talk.politics.misc:64391 alt.politics.bush:14588 alt.politics.british:466 alt.president.clinton:1110
From: lanier@bart.acpub.duke.edu (Dustin Lanier)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,misc.test,alt.politics.org.un,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.bush,alt.politics.british,alt.president.clinton
Subject: Re: Somalia
Date: 15 Dec 92 19:58:08 GMT
Followup-To: alt.current-events.somalia

In article <1992Dec10.223308.18373@csus.edu>, vpcsc11@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu (student) writes:
|> In article Randall Rhea writes:
|> 
|> >I just can't believe that we're doing it to help starving people.
|> >There must be another motivation.  If we really wanted to help
|> >starving children, then we would have intervened several months
|> >ago, before thousands of them died.  Or, we would feed our own
|> >children here in the U.S.  No, I don't buy it.  Perhaps the
|> >strategic location of Somalia on the horn of Africa is a better
|> >explanation.
|> >
|> 
|> Good point.  If helping starving people is our primary motivation
|> for this action, it seems like we would be taking stronger action
|> domestically.
|> 
|> IMHO, what is happening in Somalia is a fundamental redefinition of
|> U.S. foreign policy.  In the past, we always used the justification of
|> "national security/national interest" to intervene.  In Somalia, for
|> the first time, we are justifying our war on "humanitarian" grounds.

It comes down to this.  

After the Gulf War Bush was very popular and his strength was foriegn
policy.  As the election got closer the media and the democrats (seperately) :)
began to attack Bush on focusing on foreign affairs while ignoring 
domestic affairs.  Bush and his committee to de-elect the president
overreacted and did not want to even look like they knew the outside
world was going on.  

	This is not excusing the man I belatedly voted for because I think
it is horrendous that this kind of stuff could go on.  But we do not live
in a vacuum where we just wake up and say, Somalia: let's do it.  I'm 
sure people thought about this before then they said it was bad timing.

One last thing; I have yet to meet a person who says that this is some
"imperialist american move" that was not saying before "we are in Iraq for
oil while africans with no strategic significance die."  I find it only
reenforces my belief that some people are so jaded that they can never
look at an issue without blaming the US, and the seventh seal will break
before they find anything to be pleased with in this country.

Dustin Lanier
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia
From: idjohnst@sciborg.uwaterloo.ca (Ian Johnston)
Subject: Re: CNN / All Reporters
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 21:23:11 GMT

In article <1992Dec11.182021.11305@watson.ibm.com> cookinga@yukon.fishkill.ibm.com (Andy Cookingham) writes:
> In article <<Bz26ts.9Ks@watserv2.uwaterloo.ca> 
>idjohnst@sciborg.uwaterloo.ca (Ian Johnston) writes:	
>
>>When you think about it, they didn't even really look like seals.
>>They looked quite disoriented & confused... not 'trained killers' like
>>i'd expect.
>
>
>May I ask what "trained killers" are supposed to look like? Especially
>when they aren't
>on a mission to kill?

  I had imagined a more organized assault/landing onto the beach. They
looked like they dragged themselves out of the water, then stood around
wondering what they were supposed to do now. They were not what I had
expected at all. Then again, my impresions of the US military (my being
Canadian and all) are all fed to me by either the media, or by friends in
Canadian armed forces. **FLAME SUITS ON**
  According to all of the Canadian service personelle that I've talked to,
they don't have too much respect for the average marine. But, that's another
story entirely.
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia,alt.politics.org.un,alt.president.clinton,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.bush
From: jonesek@ucunix.san.uc.edu (Erik Reid Jones)
Subject: Re: Somalia
Followup-To: alt.current-events.somalia
Organization: University of Cincinnati
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 13:22:22 GMT

In article <MARY.92Dec13190831@martinique.Cayman.COM> mary@Cayman.COM (Mary Malmros) writes:
>
>In article <Byzzpr.2M5@ucunix.san.uc.edu> jonesek@ucunix.san.uc.edu (Erik Reid Jones) writes:
>
>   Yes, it is scary.  The average American voter doesn't have a 
>   clue in the world.  It's scary when democracy gets out of
>   hand.  Now I by no means advocate this, but it really does
>   give hefty weight towards the argument of an intellectual
>   aristocracy, where only those with at least a Bachelor's
>   Degree can vote...
>
>   Erik Jones
>
>When I read this, I found myself thinking of some of the drivel
>I've seen posted from .edu sites.  Those people are in a situation
>where they can basically skate easy and get that bachelor's degree,
>if they so choose.  A lot of people do work hard and genuinely 
>educate themselves while at college, but the "gentleman's C" is, 
>unfortunately, not a thing of the past.  If you truly want to 
>put control in the hands of the smart folks, you'll need to use
>some different criteria than attaining a bachelor's degree.  
>
This is precisely the reason, Mary, why I do not advocate what I
stated above.  An intellectual aristocracy is something I spout
off to friends and relatives when I get a little tired of people
voting for horrible things just because they've bought into some
politician's lies of how much better the world will be.  If a
democracy were to be replaced with an intellectual aristocracy,
where would the cutoff be?  The ~15% of the people who get
Bachelors degrees?  The ~2% of the people who get Masters
degrees?  Or move all the way up to being a Ph.D., D.M.A, or
the like?  Or maybe the ruling class has to be a member of
Mensa (oh, that lowest of the low of all the intellectual
groups)?  Let's face it, anyone who would actually lobby for
this kind of a system would want rules to be in place that
would allow them to be a part of that ruling class.  That's
why I posted Bachelors debree -- my own bias, since that is
what I now have.  Of course, I could have said D.M.A., since
that is what I am on my way towards.  One way or another, the
bias plays through.  How about you, Mary?  If you were to
advocate an intellectual aristocracy, what would be your
guidelines?  How intelligent would you insist your leaders
be before you allowed them to send America's children to
Somalia?

Erik Jones


Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia
From: bhoughto@sedona.intel.com (Blair P. Houghton)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.org.un,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.bush,talk.bizarre,alt.politics.british,alt.president.clinton
Subject: Re: Somalia
Date: 14 Dec 1992 01:29:34 GMT
Organization: Intel Corp., Chandler, Arizona
NNTP-Posting-Host: alfalfa.intel.com
X-made-you-look: :-)

In article <1992Dec13.050336.20784@athena.cs.uga.edu> milliken@athena.cs.uga.edu (Brewmeister) writes:
>When every American citizen has adequate food, clothing, shelter, access to
[...blah, blah, blah...]
>
>My question is, what the hell is so important in Somalia that it necessitates
>our presence?  It's not just the starvation of the citizens, or we would be
>flying food into the inner-cities.  Did they recently strike oil?  Is the
>location of Somalia strategically important?  Somebody who knows, fill me
>in, because I'm no expert in military strategy.  I don't buy into the argument
>that it is for purely humanitarian purposes though.  That is not consistant 
>with our track record.

1.  Diplomatic brownie-points.  It isn't just the US; we're
merely the ones who (finally!) stood up when the UN asked
for volunteers; of course, the French Foreign Legion has
beaten us to it.

2.  Middle-eastern brownie-points.  The Saudis have, for
about the second time in a millenium, sent their soldiers
outside their borders.  The Arabian hegemony is very
appreciative of our efforts to free the Kuwait land and
oil.  The US troops will pretty much protect the Saudi
troops, and the Arabian hegemony will again be very
appreciative.

3.  Left-wing brownie-points.  Bleatings of, "now THIS is a
use of military intervention I can understand," and all that.

4.  African brownie-points.  This of course depends on how
we treat the place once we restore "law and order."  It's
not likely we'll stay there as governors; it is likely
we'll be the perpetual "advisors" to the Somali military.
Notice also that there's something called the "United
Somali Congress" (or "Conference"; the "USC" is the popular
term) which has the ear and nose of our own policy makers.
The Marines found a cache of weapons, guarded by Somalis
claiming to be in the USC, in an overrun US diplomatic
facility in Mogadishu.  They called back to HQ for a
disposition, and were told to leave the weapons where they
are and get completely out of the compound.  Does'ums
smells a prop-up job on the horizon?  I sure does.

5.  Dying Somali brownie-points.  Someone with four
initials still wants to get into heaven even after all the
rotten things he's done in the past...and the parents of
his minions don't mind a bit...yeah, right...

6.  Misc.test brownie-points.

				--Blair
				  "George Bush may be a cynical cocksucker,
				   but every once in a while that's exactly
				   the angle you need on a problem.  Too bad
				   Dick Nixon thought it was his turn..."
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia,alt.activism
From: harp@netcom.com (Gregory O. Harp)
Subject: Re: Going to Somalia
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 22:03:42 GMT

rchilder@us.oracle.com (Richard Childers) writes:

>yarvin@cs.yale.edu (Norman Yarvin) writes:

>>No, what makes it dangerous for U.S. citizens to travel around the world is
>>terrorism.  Done by terrorists.  The terrorists are usually armed and
>>financed by governments hostile to us.  For instance the Communist Bloc used
>>to be a heavy supporter of terrorists.

>And what _motivates_ them, dear boy ?

The motivation is that terrorism against U.S. citizens gets the
attention of the only remaining world superpower.  It worked for Iran,
who got arms for hostages.  It didn't work for Libya, who got
Mavericks shoved down their throats.

According to today's news some Somali technicals learned a bit about
what happens when you shoot at a U.S. helicopter.  I only hope that
any others who are thinking about trying it get a chance to view the
burned-out carcasses of those trucks before they try -- it could save
their lives, not to mention some U.S. tax dollars.  TOWs and Hellfires
aren't cheap.

>>Enough of us have been killed so that the rest _have_ started doing something
>>about the reasons.  Units dedicated to counterterrorist operations are a
>>relatively new part of our military.

>I think it's this 'us' business, as if we were different, as if our needs
>should always have priority, as if being an American placed one at the right
>hand of God. Which is directly contraventional to the concepts of freedom
>and equality we trumpet so loudly ... which makes 'us' look like hypocrites.

>Which is reasonable. Many of us _are_ hypocrites.

You're way off track.  We're _not_ particularly better.  We're simply
a good target.  Stop looking for reasons why we bring terrorism upon
us because we don't.  

The difference is that we also don't _ignore_ terrorism.

I think you mistake pride for hypocrisy.  I'm proud that my country is
helping save the lives of the Somali victims of their civil war.  I'm
willing to support my country if we decide to do the same in Bosnia-
Hercegovinia.  The concepts of freedom and equality we trumpet so
loudly have their roots in the lives of victimized innocents.  Letting
these innocent people die would be hypocritical.  
-- 
-----------------Greg-Harp----------------harp@netcom.com------------------
  "I think I've reached that point / Where every word that you write /
  Of every blood dark sea / And every soul black night / And every dream
  you dream me in / And every perfect free from sin / And burning eyes /
  And hearts on fire / Are just the same old song" -- The Cure
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia,alt.politics.org.un,alt.president.clinton,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.bush
From: m23364@mwunix (James Meritt)
Subject: Re: Somalia
Organization: MITRE Corporation, McLean VA
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 16:27:00 GMT

In article <1992Dec18.021642.5453@newsgate.sps.mot.com> carlson@viking.sps.mot.com (Brett Carlson) writes:

[Irrelevant  and often inaccurate mutterings deleted]

}--brett, no clever 

[irrelevant mutterings deleted]

'nuff said.




Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia,alt.politics.org.un,alt.president.clinton,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.bush
From: sbooth@lonestar.utsa.edu (Simon E. Booth)
Subject: Re: Somalia
Organization: University of Texas at San Antonio
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 23:53:00 GMT


Question: What exactly is the terrain and climate of Somalia? It's
just north of the equator, but I'm not sure if it's tropical or
desert.

Simon

Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia
From: egl1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Elizabeth G. Levy)
Subject: Re: U.S. Is Not Going to War in Somalia for any Good Reasons
Reply-To: egl1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Elizabeth G. Levy)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 21:06:42 GMT

In article <1giamlINN1b9@menudo.uh.edu> HADCRJAM@admin.uh.edu (MILLER, JIMMY A.) writes:
>In <1ghbfnINNilo@CATHY.NA.CS.YALE.EDU> yarvin@cs.yale.edu writes:
>[deletions]
>> In other words, you would have the UN try to achieve enough of a balance of
>> power so that the war stops.  This would work, in the sense that they could
>> achieve a balance of power in the short term.  But it would be a major
>> operation without a fixed ending point.  Our military has shied away from
>> such things ever since Vietnam, and for good reason.  The US simply does not
>> have the political will to sustain a long war.  Our opponents know this,
>> too; it was proven in Vietnam, where the military stalemate which was
>> reached was not acceptable to us.  The Serbians would know that if they
>> called our bluff by keeping the war going, eventually we would pull out.
>
>  I would add a bit of a caveat -- the US will support a long war for suffi-
>ciently good reasons.  Vietnam went on for several years, before the pullout,
>and the reasons were never all that good (well-defined) from the get-go.  WWII
>was certainly not short.
>

Well, also, we have to be able to see the proverbial light-at-the-end-
of-the-tunnel.  Support for Vietnam held up until Tet, when Westmoreland
and LBJ were shown to be somewhat mistaken in their assessments.  "Victory"
was always right around the corner until then.

Actually, the defeat of the enemy would not necessarily constitute the
proverbial light.  Nixon prolonged the war for about 5 more years by
promoting the MIA/POW issue.  In this case, we have clearly articulated
goals (the freedom of the prisoners), but neither clear means to achieve
it, nor a clear timetable.


_Home Alone 2_ has now grossed over $90 million.

	** Macaulay Culkin: HE MUST BE STOPPED !!!! **
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia
From: chrisb@seachg.uucp (Chris Blask)
Subject: Just do it
Reply-To: chrisb@seachg.UUCP (Chris Blask)
Organization: Sea Change Corporation, Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 92 14:21:48 GMT

In article <1992Dec13.211432.27484@cis.ohio-state.edu> pugh@tortoise.cis.ohio-state.edu (Tom Pugh) writes:
>	I agree....I think that the United States is a great place
>(as far as places to live go), but I also think we have much more than
>we really deserve.  According to an article I read, the GNP per capita in
>Somalia is about $119 (or was a couple of years ago), whereas ours is about
>$20,000.  Something is seriously wrong with that.  People in foreign countries
>have as much right to life, liberty, and property that we do, if not more.
>Sending food and military to help the effort is the least we can do...
>
>

Now, I've mostly been pulling for the pro-foodaid, not-anti-US lobby in
this thread, but I'd still like to steer people away from the kind of
atmosphere expressed in this post.

It IS terrible that we live in a world with such disparity; it is NOT
necessary, though, to feel "winner's guilt" for doing better than someone
else.  It is typical white-liberal-guilt to feel that somehow I don't
deserve nice stuff because of all the poor people out there who do deserve
it.  You can have both, you know?  Hard work and dedication to resolving
moral issues can provide as livable an environment as is possible in a
less-than-perfect world.  Do your best to make "helping out" a part of your
life, then you will effect more good, you'll feel better for having done
it, and you will have a better perspective on reality.

If you watch the people who work with "disadvantaged" folks for a living,
you will notice that they look on their charges as equals.  You don't baby
a mentally handicapped person, and therefore let him run all over you and
have no discipline, you don't hand over your wallet and mouth words of pity
for a poor person, and take away any self respect or respect for you they
might have had.

Let's do something good.  Let's give some of our extra energy and save some
lives.  But these are not "pitiful little black people in that horrid land,
who deserve this more than I do", they are just people like the folks next
door, and they are hungry.

-chris blask

	"All we are saying....."  -john lennon
Xref: sparky alt.current-events.somalia:409 alt.activism:19509
From: rchilder@us.oracle.com (Richard Childers)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia,alt.activism
Subject: Re: Going to Somalia
Date: 11 Dec 92 00:51:35 GMT
Organization: Memes-R-Us
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.


nmiller@starbase.trincoll.edu (norman miller) writes:


>jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala) writes:

	< stupid, bigoted nationalist pap eliminated here by
	  nmiller@starbase.trincoll.edu to bias readers >

>>  I just wish the hatred and violence would be
>>targeted at the right target, ie. people like you, instead of any
>>random U.S. citizen.  Perhaps if enough of people like you were
>>killed, the rest would start doing something about the reasons.
>>
>>//Jyrki

>Bravo.  There speaks the unfiltered voice of what sometimes
>passes for left-activism.  Could have been uttered by Pat
>Buchanan or Tom Metzger.

Actually, as an American citizen with some experience of other places,
I agree with Jyrki. If he's any representative of what Finnish people
are like, they sound both intelligent and civilized.


-- richard

-- 
=====
-- richard childers		rchilder@us.oracle.com		1 415 506 2411
         oracle data center  --  unix systems & network administration
                    Klein flask for rent. Inquire within.
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.somalia,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.org.un,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.bush,talk.bizarre,alt.politics.british,alt.president.clinton