HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mgcbo@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Charles B. Owen)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Suggestion:  misc.writing.fiction, misc.writing.non-fiction
Date: 25 Jan 1993 20:10:40 -0600
Organization: Educational Computing Network
NNTP-Posting-Host: uxa.ecn.bgu.edu

>> As an aside, is there any interest in setting up a bulliten board for
>> writers in the sciences?  The issues that arise in this genre are
>> different than when writing fiction, or when writing for the "public."
>> Also, would it not be helpful to establish a discussion on the
>> emotional aspects of writing--the isolation, the effects on one's
>> social life, frustrations, fears, the list is practically endless.  These
>> aspects of writing cut across genres.

It seems to me that there should be two boards, misc.writing.fiction,
and misc.writing.non-fiction.  While some issues are common, they really
are very, very different.  There seems to be about even discussion of
entertainment and technical writing in this group and it is pretty
active.  Just a suggestion.  Any option?


-- 
| Charles B. Owen                            Internet: mgcbo@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu |
| Western Illinois University                            Phone: 309-837-4292 |
| 1002 E. Murray                                                             |
| Macomb, IL  61455                                                          |
From: ll23%nemomus@academic.nemostate.edu (Karen Kay)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Technical Writers Organizations
Date: 27 Jan 93 19:15:16 GMT
Organization: Brown University
NNTP-Posting-Host: brownvm.brown.edu
X-News-Software: BNN via BNN_POST v1.0 beta

What organizations exist for technical writers?  Is the Society for Technical
Communication the major one or are there others?

Karen Kay
ll23%nemomus@academic.nemostate.edu
From: ewright@convex.com (Edward V. Wright)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Not revising - with a twist
Date: 27 Jan 93 22:34:35 GMT
Organization: Engineering, CONVEX Computer Corp., Richardson, Tx., USA
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by a user at CONVEX Computer
              Corp. The opinions expressed are those of the user and
              not necessarily those of CONVEX.

In <1k268lINN1ln@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu> mgcbo@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Charles B. Owen) writes:

>Fire and Brimstone on you.  No, seriously, I just recently completed the
>combination of rereading Heinlein's _Friday_ and Ansen Dibell's _Plot_.
>There is not doubt in my mind that, if that novel been send over the
>transom to a publisher with no name on it that it would have been
>rejected.  (And you thought you would get flames!)  This and most books
>I have on writing fiction point out numerous problems in this novel that
>should have been fixed.  

Which, I guess, is why you see so many Ansen Dibell novels on the 
bestseller rack. :-)


>I guess what I am saying, Maureen/Jane, is that I agree with you that Mr.
>Heinlein may not be the best example/expert in fiction writing.  The
>knowledge to do something is not always equivalent to the ability to
>teach.  

Those who can, do...
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: philip@world.std.com (Philip Borenstein)
Subject: Re: Rules of Thumb
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 07:06:38 GMT

[various]
>>Does anyone have any rules of thumb to share?

1. Never let a non-writer engage you in a grammar argument.
   If you can't smile and walk away, then say "Because *I'm*
   the writer, that's why."

2. End on prepositions if that's what you want to end on.

3. Stop typing now and then, or you will get a RSI, and then you
   won't be able to write, and then you won't be able to work, and
   then you'll starve and die.

--philip.
  philip@world.std.com
From: frohnhof@ray.nlm.nih.gov (Jim Frohnofer)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Rules of Thumb
Date: 21 Jan 93 13:50:48 GMT
Organization: National Library of Medicine, Bethesda Md. USA

In article <C15ox6.1F6@unx.sas.com>, saslpo@stevens.unx.sas.com (Len Olszewski) writes:

|> Incidentally, I just read in a Time magazine article that the
|> origination of the term "rule of thumb" came from an arcane law that
|> allowed a husband to beat his wife, but only with a rod no larger than
|> his thumb. How charming, no?

For clarification, a rod no _thicker_ than his thumb.
 
1. Always press a pressing team.
2. Air power alone cannot win a war.
3. Never make the first or last out at third.
4. Never hold onto an ace kicker with a pair (or try to draw to an inside
straight.)
5. Always box your exactas.

Oh, about _writing_, sorry.

Jim Frohnhofer
frohnhof@ray.nlm.nih.gov 
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian)
Subject: Work in Progress
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1993 00:34:06 GMT

Redmagic is grinding along...but at least the cheque arrived from Del Rey,
just about on schedule! This has a strongly encouraging effect on most
writers.

I find I'm dealing pretty happily with a number of plot strands at the
moment. The good guys are now heading north for home with Deir, a girl who
seems to command more magical firepower than is entirely safe for a
16-year-old girl; and Nezaual, a young magician of the bad guys. Calindor,
the young supermagician hero of the novel, is out to learn both her magic and
his. Meanwhile the priest-magicians of the bad guys have learned about the
northern magician and are going to battle stations; they want to get Calindor
(and anyone else like him) onside for their theologically motivated conquest
of the world.

For what it's worth, I'm experimenting some more with Storyspace, a hypertext
writing tool for the Mac, and using it as a muscular outliner. It's working
pretty well.

Would any Mac-using writers care to know how I use the machine for writing a
novel? If so, I'll put together a list of tips; anyone who's got better
methods, please let me (and everyone else!) know what you're doing.


--
Crawford Kilian   Communications Department   Capilano College
North Vancouver BC Canada V7J 3H5
Usenet: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca
Internet: ckilian@first.etc.bc.ca
From: mmussell@fmgu25.intel.com (Morgan Mussell ~)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Writing Erotica
Date: 26 Jan 93 21:25:13 GMT
Article-I.D.: inews.C1HCu2.Gzt
Organization: Intel Corporation, Santa Clara, CA USA

From: mds5597@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
>	Wow....I looked at the Madonna book.....(no I did not buy it). I got to
>the part with the dog and closed it. No I do not think it should be burned, but
>I am not entirely sure that it should be in the "non erotica" book stores
>either. Can we clarify something here.....erotica and romance...what's the
>difference? When I think of Romance, I think of feelings and love. When I think
>of Erotica I think of nudity and sex. Is this about right?

Oh I think "feelings and love" and "nudity and sex" can blend nicely in life
and art, but as someone who has recently become a delighted (and doting) dog
owner for the first time since childhood, I'm troubled that Madonna includes
a canine in her shenanigans. Frederick the Great supposedly said,

       "The more I see of men, the better I like my dog."

I assume that's your generic, all inclusive, pre-nonsexist-language "men,"
and that Fred would have included Madonna as runner up to pleasures of a
good animal friend.

Morgan Mussell              mmussell@mcd.intel.com 
Newsgroups: misc.writing
(Smail3.1.28.1 #7) id m0nGNW8-0000wzC; Sun, 24 Jan 93 22: 41 PST
From: chrisc@pro-harold.cts.com (Chris Carstens)
Subject: Trans-Computer I-Ching
Organization: The Harold Network -- An Alliance For Creative Communication
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 93 20:18:54 PST

This message has been posted before -- this is a work in progress.  If
you've seen it before, my apologies.  But many people just drop inn the net
now and again, and I'm hoping to catch a few more interested eyes.  

To the regulars, thanks for your patience.

And now, on with my commercial.

I am soliciting participants in a bit of performance art by computer,
perhaps a transoceanic prose adventure, involving serious questions and the
I-Ching.  This is a serious endeavor -- more poetry than fortune telling.
Want to know more?  Inquire by E-mail.
 
Go peacefully,
 
Chris
-----
Chris Carstens
ProLine: chrisc@pro-harold
Internet: chrisc@pro-harold.cts.com
UUCP: crash!pro-harold!chrisc
San Diego, California, USA
From: gpalo@digi.lonestar.org (Gerry Palo)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Writing Erotica
Date: 27 Jan 93 16:34:18 GMT
Organization: DSC Communications Corp, Plano, TX

I think the distinction between erotica and pornography is highly
overrated.  What it usually means is that the piece has pornographic 
scenes surrounded by non-pornograph material of some higher
degree of literary quality than what is sold in adult bookstores.
The sex scenes themselves may be well and subtly depicted, but
the effect is the same.  Unless it is a clinical treatise,
the depiction of physical sex has the effect of arousing the
reader's own sexual feelings, and writers and publishers know
this very well.  Literary writers and the reviewers they are in 
bed with like to characterize their pornography as erotica because 
it lends a note of legitimacy and high culture to it.  But
what it really does is sell books.  You  can't write pornography
to sell in Waldenbooks, but you can write erotica.  Same-o
same-o. 

My reading experience with literary erotica has been that the 
sex scenes invariably call attention to themselves alone and
add nothing to either plot or character development, and books
of pure erotica are mainly about the pornographic parts, with 
the non-pornographic parts being literary filler.  There may
be exceptions, of course, and there surely many PhDs who make
their living on the literary merits of erotica. Doubtless they
will have many enlightening things to say about it.  I certainly
wouldn't want to question the prosperity of the Henry Miller 
industry.

As for the literary quality of purely pornographic books, I
heard from the instructor of a writing class I took that 
almost all successful writers have written porn books, and
most of those who don't command high royalties regularly
do it.  These are those 175 page paperbacks for which they
receive about $1,000 flat fee, which a seasoned writer can
crank out in a week or so.  It comes in handy when the 
rent is due.  Does anyone in this thread know whether this is
true?  (I can honestly say that it has been many years since
I read such books or erotica either, for that matter. At the 
time I had no interest in the literary qualities of the 
material :-).


Gerry Palo (73237.2006@compuserve.com)

  "The concept 'falling in love' and the concept 'sex' are related
   to each other as the concept 'train' is related to the concept
   'being run over'." 
                       Rudolf Steiner (paraphrased from memory)
From: gw19@prism.gatech.EDU (Guy R. Williams)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Rules of Thumb
Date: 21 Jan 93 18:12:33 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology

In <C16zr3.4t9@world.std.com> philip@world.std.com (Philip Borenstein) writes:

>[various]
>>>Does anyone have any rules of thumb to share?

#1.  Use a pencil. :-)

-- 
Guy R. Williams                         guy.williams@sac.gatech.edu
Georgia Tech Student Services 
(No, that is *not* an oxymoron!)
-- 
Guy R. Williams                         guy.williams@sac.gatech.edu
Georgia Tech Student Services 
(No, that is *not* an oxymoron!)
From: trish_r@mind.ORG (Trish Rucker)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Hi from a new caller!
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 93 14:55:16 -0500
Organization: Fortress Development HQ

Just wanted to take a moment to say "hi" and introduce myself.   I have a 
BA and most of an MFA in Creative Writing from GSU.   I write poetry, 
short stories, and short shorts (sudden fiction).   My work has appeared 
in a number of literary magazines, including CAROLINA QUARTERLY, POETRY 
EAST, HAWAII REVIEW, SOUTHERN HUMANITIES REVIEW, and more.   Literary 
interests are eclectic, but include
Plath
Sexton
Berryman
those other Confessionalists!
Roethke
Jarrell
Olds
Forche
Goldbarth
Gallagher
Ai
Kundera
Irving
Atwood
Drabble
Roth
 
If you have similar interests in writing (and/or reading), I would love 
to correspond.   If you're interested in exchanging work, I prefer doing 
that via Internet.
 
Hope to hear from you soon!!
 
If you'd like to write back via Internet, please write
me at the following address:
trish.rucker@ehbbs.gwinnett.com
Newsgroups: misc.writing,misc.kids,rec.arts.books
From: peterc@suite.sw.oz.au.sw.oz.au (Peter Chubb,x114,6982322,3982735)
Subject: Re: Question - what's the word for ...
Organization: Softway Pty Ltd
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 93 23:10:17 GMT
Originator: peterc@suite.sw.oz.au

From article <1993Jan22.143916.19750@cbfsb.cb.att.com>, by djd@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (david.j.daulton):
> 
> BTW, is there a name for Dan Quayle's "A mind is a terrible thing to
> loose"?  It seems to almost be a malapropism, but I am not sure.  (As for
> Dan's assertion that there are canals on Mars, and water and, air, and
> it's in the same orbit as earth and we could live there, well I think
> that's called "dumb".)

Personally, I frequently loose my mind to ponder on almost anything....
What's wrong with that?
		Peter C.
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: jdm@Cadence.COM (Joe Mastroianni)
Subject: Need Proofreader 
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Distribution: CA  
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 21:21:43 GMT

  Okay, look:

  I'm a newbie.  I have a few publishing credits to my name--one short
  story and a bunch of articles.  I know--big f deal. 

  I have an agent to handle my work.  Again, so what?  I'm an amateur.

  But I have a problem.  I'm an engineer by trade.  I make my money
  in the software world. I haven't had a lot of experience producing
  manuscripts that follow the generally accepted rules of English.

  What does this mean?  What this means is I make a lot of stupid grammatical
  mistakes in my manuscripts.  Yes, I use spell-checkers.  Yes, I use
  grammar checkers. Yes, I let my wife read what I write.

  Even after all the automated and spousal checking, my agent will STILL
  return pages of corrections to me.  Arggg. 

  So here's the deal: I would be interested in procuring the services
  of someone who can proofread my material.  I'd like for this person
  to be located in the SF South Bay area. I would strongly prefer someone
  who is currently a student of English, or who has a degree in the same.

  I will pay real money.  How much real money?  I don't know.  I'm not
  rich and I haven't published a lot. But my agent and I just went through
  the first draft of my new book and spent two solid weeks changing
  "it's" to "its" (Yes I know the difference.  How could I have gotten an 
  agent otherwise?  I just type "it's" ALL the time.  I can't help it.)
  Neither my agent nor I can afford to spend so much time on stupid mistakes.

  Maybe you can. We'll negotiate a rate.

  This means you will need to know which of the following is correct:

  "I think blah...," he said.

  "I think blah. . .,"he said.

  "I think blah..."he said.

  "I think blah. . ." he said.

  You will need to know all those things that I do with annoying frequency
  when my Shertzer is out of reach. You will need to provide me the
  corrections necessary so that my agent can send my manuscripts to editors
  without further manipulation on my part and needless proofreading on her 
  part. 

  If you are interested in doing this kind of thing for money, drop me 
  a line on the Internet or Compuserve. 

  Thanks in advance,

  Joe        jdm@cadence.com    74017,310  (Compuserve)
-- 
Joe Mastroianni          AKA: AA6YD  AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA
Cadence Design Systems   Compuserve:  74017,310  Genie: JOE-M
Santa Clara Ca.          "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we
jdm@cadence.com           daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men "  
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian)
Subject: Re: Work in Progress
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 16:24:17 GMT

Chuq asks about Storyspace. It's available from Eastgate Systems, Inc., 134
Main Street, Watertown MA 02172 USA Phone (617) 924-9044 or (800) 562-1638.
You can also reach them by email at eastgate@world.std.com

Storyspace isn't very expensive (a little over $100, I seem to recall) and
takes up about half a meg--although the sample hypertext documents,
"readers," that come with it will push total disk space to around a meg. It
supports color.


--
Crawford Kilian   Communications Department   Capilano College
North Vancouver BC Canada V7J 3H5
Usenet: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca
Internet: ckilian@first.etc.bc.ca
From: ojvind@chagall.cns.caltech.edu (Ojvind Bernander)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Suggestion:  misc.writing.fiction, misc.writing.non-fiction
Date: 26 Jan 93 20:49:03 GMT
Article-I.D.: gap.1k483vINNe1h
Organization: California Institute of Technology
NNTP-Posting-Host: chagall.cns.caltech.edu

In article <1k26j0INN25m@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu> mgcbo@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Charles B. Owen) writes:
>It seems to me that there should be two boards, misc.writing.fiction,
>and misc.writing.non-fiction.  While some issues are common, they really
>are very, very different.  There seems to be about even discussion of
>entertainment and technical writing in this group and it is pretty
>active.  Just a suggestion.  Any option?

I second this.  I never read any of the _technical writing_ postings.

-- Ojvind
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: Peter_Wilson@mindlink.bc.ca (Peter Wilson)
Subject: Re: Not revising - with a twist
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 20:29:44 GMT

> Gerry Palo writes:
> As far as using Heinlein's rule, I wonder if anyone has ever tried it, with
> the added twist that when you finish a piece, if it is not worth
> submitting,
> then throw it away and start something new - don't submit it at all.
> I admit this would be very hard to do, but the discipline might help one to
> improve one's overall skills and productivity.  I would think also that the
> act of throwing a piece away might help in detaching one's ego from the
> work, something I find very difficult to do.

Funny you should mention this. I just finished writing a piece that didn't
work. Unfortunately -- since I'm employed to produce three of these pieces a
week and my deadline for this one is Monday at 9 a.m. -- that meant I had to
start all over again.

Instead of just throwing away the idea entirely, I started from a new angle
-- with a new lead paragraph and a different slant. I didn't try to revise
the old piece, just wrote as if I had never written the thing before at all.

That worked fairly well and then, at about the halfway point, I was
able to cannibalize the latter half of the old piece, with some minor
revisions and finish up.

 Also, I never throw anything away, unless it's time-sensitive. What
doesn't work one day might well work the next.

--
----------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Wilson                       peter_wilson@mindlink.b.c.ca
North Vancouver, B.C.              or Compuserve 70674,2616
Canada

Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: mtan@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Maureen Tan)
Subject: Re: Not revising - with a twist
Followup-To: misc.writing
Organization: UIUC
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 21:31:13 GMT

In article <1993Jan23.053309.14920@cbfsb.cb.att.com>,
djd@cbnewsg.cb.att.com (david.j.daulton) wrote:
> 
> Regarding:
> >> As far as using Heinlein's rule, I wonder if anyone has ever tried it, with
> >> the added twist that when you finish a piece, if it is not worth submitting,
> >> then throw it away ...
> >> 
> >> Any takers?
> 
> And the reply:
> >
> >Oh, God!  Throw away one of my children?!
> >
> 
> This calls to mind another statement that (as I recall) came from Heinlein,
> that "Writing for the trunk is masturbation."  So rather than one's children,
> one would be throwing away...well, being a polite person, at least in mixed
> company (and this certainly is a mixed company), I think I won't complete
> that thought.
> 
> Dave Daulton, Columbus, Ohio

As my teenage daughter would say, "E-e-w-w-w!  G-r-r-o-s-s, Dave!"

Seriously, though, I do think even "unworthy" pieces  and
unused snippets of text are often worth saving.    Those rejected
 bits and pieces create a "journal" of unused ideas, dialogue, impressions,
and images.   For instance, that bit of suspenseful dialogue in the story
that
was written as a throwaway for some creative writing class can become
the basis of a "mature" writer's next story.

 Also, I think  that when many  of us first look over a newly
completed project, we judge ourselves far too harshly.
If, immediately upon completion, I threw away everything  I felt
was  flawed, nothing would *ever* be submitted much less published.
 Amazing how some stuff seems so much better with a few
(days/weeks/months) perspective.  If it was worth writing in the first
place
(and assuming it was written at some reasonable level of competence)
 it's probably worth looking at again and working through the flaws.  

Worst case, you can always look back through your file
of discards and say to yourself, "Gee, have I  improved!"

P.S. to Heinlein worshippers:  IMHO, some of his later stuff would
have had substantially more  impact if some editor had had the guts (or
the authority) to say to the great man, "Look, I *know* you're famous now,
 but that doesn't mean everything that comes from your pen  is sacred.
Let's  cut some of the philosophical  musing, and
 tighten this  plot up a little, OK?"   [Please, folks, no flames!
 It's just an opinion!]

Maureen (a.k.a. Jane)

==================================================
Maureen Tan                                                                
                            Who dares,
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign                           Wins.
mtan@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
=======================================================
The opinions expressed here are undoubtedly *not* those of my employer!
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: nadeau@bnr.ca (Rheal Nadeau)
Subject: Re: Publishing and Illustrators
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 93 00:44:35 GMT

In article <1993Jan27.194000.2154@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> earp@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (J.Kevin Earp) writes:
>Recently a friend asked this question: She has two children's books
>completed.  Would a publisher hire the illustrator and arrange for
>the artwork, or should she do so.  

Publishers have their own illustratrors.  They want to control the look,
the layout, of the book.  The only exception might be very small
publishers, who might do a children's book or two as a sideline.

By the way, the author and illustrator are considered equal partners,
and share royalties evenly.  So the author might get 4% of the sale
price, rather than 8% (or whatever the percentage might be).

       The Rhealist - nadeau@bnr.ca - Speaking only for myself
From: ehudon@reed.edu (Elizabeth Hudon)
Newsgroups: misc.writing
Subject: Re: Work in Progress
Date: 26 Jan 93 10:28:08 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1993Jan26.102808.1700
Organization: Reed College, Portland, OR


Yes, I'm a Mac-user and I'd be very interested to hear what aspects of the
Mac environment and/or software that you make use of. 

The reason I posted this rather than emailing it was because I assumed
there might be others interested.

Viva Macintosh!

Elizabeth
ehudon@reed.edu
Newsgroups: misc.writing
From: nadeau@bnr.ca (Rheal Nadeau)
Subject: Re: Interactive-Fiction Game Needs Adventure Writers
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 93 04:23:15 GMT

In article <1jn2bcINNknn@uwm.edu> despair@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Craig Andrew Tollifson) writes:
>Fellow Gamers, Writers, and interactive fiction enthusiasts:
> 
>We are the makers of a new fantasy Text-Based On-Line Multi-Player Role-Playing
>Game. This new game system is one of the most powerful game systems EVER
>developed (In the spirit of games like Gemstone III on GEnie, and MUD on Unix).

You mean Usenet isn't already the ultimate fantasy Text-Based On-Line
Multi-Player Role-Playing Game?

- The Rhealist (aka Aunt Mildred)
Newsgroups: misc.writing