HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jimc@tekcae.cax.tek.com (Jim Carden)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
Subject: Re: Some questions about Quakerism
Date: 12 Jan 93 15:29:58 GMT
Reply-To: patl@goldfish.mitron.tek.com
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton,  OR.

In article <1993Jan11.192547.8033@ryn.mro4.dec.com> bloom@tarkin.enet.dec.com (ELBERT Bloom) writes:
>   1) Do you believe the Bible to be the invarient "Word of God"? Are
>      there any exceptions to the rule?

Quakers traditionally have acted as if every individual can directly receive the "Word of God".
(See the "Inner Light" thread in this news group.)

>   2) Do different Quakers have differing opinions on the meanings
>      of the Bible?

Quakers traditionally have not adopted any particular dogma or doctorine or creed of faith.
Traditionally, they have been avoided not because they are necessarily "untrue", but
because they are believed to be unnecessary. Rituals like baptism are not avoided because
they are believed to be the "wrong" thing to do but because it is important to remember that
baptism is just a means to experience some aspect of the "Truth" and is not the "Truth" itself.

>   3) Is it even important what one's view of the Bible is...

I think the important thing has been to live in community and to find the "Truth" together.

>   4) What is the Quaker view on smoking? on drinking?

See #3.

>   5) Are all Quakers pacifists?

See #3. Some Quakers have gone to war. Other have not. Traditionally Quakers have been pacifists.

>   6) Can one be a Quaker, but not necessarily conform to all the tenets
>      of the faith?

There is no hierarchical membership organization. At most there are monthly meetings ("Churches") 
and Yearly Meetings (Groups of churches), and then some more or less loose affiliations of meetings.
"Tenets of faith" are often expressed as Queries that pose questions rather than dictate conformity.
Membership is often approved or disapproved at the Monthly Meeting level by the community at large
during the monthly Meeting for Worship for the Conduct of Business (i.e. a business meeting conducted
along the same lines as a Meeting for Worship: the "Truth" will come from sharing each individual's
experience of the "Inner Light").
--
Posted for patl@goldfish.mitron.tek.com
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
Subject: quaker worship
From: prider@netlink.cts.com (Pam Rider)
Date: Sat, 09 Jan 93 08:02:29 PST
Organization: NetLink Online Communications, San Diego CA

To the Friend seeking a view of Quaker worship. First, an excellent 
history is "Portrait in Gray" by Punchon.
 
On actual meditation, I would observe that in my experience, Meeting for 
Worship is just that and is not meditation. Worship is for me both 
community and being in community: Sitting in silent expectation for 
visitation. A deeply uniting experience of sharing and receiving that 
silentmost, most personal, most universal.
 
I sought friends because of a general impression of goodness and peace. 
My first Meeting for Worship, a remembered and previously not 
significantly favorite hymn welled over and over me, "In the Garden," I 
think. It goes: "I come to the garden alone, while the dew is still on 
the roses. And the voice I hear, falling on my ear the Son of God 
discloses. And He walks with me and He talks with me and He tells me I am 
His own. And the joy we share as we tarry there, none other has ever 
heard." Later, on reflection of weighty Friend Howard Brinton's assertion 
that the closest worship experience in Christian tradition is between 
Quaker Worship and the Mystery of the Roman Catholic Mass,  I sensed  I 
was told I was where I belonged. That in worship I was told I had always 
been a Quaker--it had just taken me a long time to find the Religious 
Society of Friends.
 
We all study and work on our journey. But, really.....the only path is 
through the experience of Worship, itself.
 
The Friend who shared Margaret Fell's wisdom has my joyous graditude. At 
this troubled time campfires in the desert are visions of hope.
Pam Rider, San Diego Monthly Meeting
??
 
 

--                    
INTERNET:  prider@netlink.cts.com (Pam Rider)
UUCP:   ...!ryptyde!netlink!prider
NetLink Online Communications * Public Access in San Diego, CA (619) 453-1115
From: bush@fermi.physics.upenn.edu (Judith Elaine Newton)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
Subject: Re: Inner Light
Date: 8 Jan 93 13:17:09 GMT

The latest Pendle Hill Pamphlet (#306) may address some of your questions. From
the Introduction:

	When we have once entered into that experience of communion [which is
	central to Quaker worship], we realize that we did not create it through
	our action of worship; all we did was to enter a reality which has been
	there from the beginning of time, waiting for us to join it, for "In the 
	beginning was the Word." ...The heart of worship is communion with this
	invisible but eternal stream of reality in which is the living and
	eternal Christ. 

	...
	
	One way to enter the stream is to imagine passing through a series of 
	four stages or doors which lead into and through the meeting for worship.


That gives you a sense of the writing style and imagery William Taber uses in
this pamplet, "Four Doors to Meeting for Worship." Pendle Hill Publications'
address is Pendle Hill Publications, Wallingford PA 19086-6099, (215) 566-4514.

I do recomend subscribing to the pamphlet series, which is $12/y for 6 pamphlets,
which are around 30 pages long and contain one essay on a wide range of topics
relating to spiritual and Quaker life.

Cheers!

judith
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
From: cperkins@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Carol Perkins)
Subject: Re: Short List for the Seeker
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, Illinois, USA
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 01:03:56 GMT

I would call your attention to the following works for materials which place
Quakerism within the general Anglo-American society:

Horle, Craig W.
The Quakers and the English Legal System: 1160-1688.
Univ. Pennsylvania Press. 1988. ISBN:0-8122-8101-2;

Levy, Barry.
Quakers and the American Family: British Settlement in the Delaware Valley.
Oxford Univ. Press. 1988. ISBN:0-19-504975-6;

And various chapters in

Fischer, David Hackett.
Albion's Seed: Four British Folkways in America.
Oxford Univ. Press. 1989. ISBN:0-19-503794-4.

SC Perkins

Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
From: bloom@tarkin.enet.dec.com (ELBERT Bloom)
Subject: Question: Quakerism vs Unitarianism?
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Date: 12 JAN 93 16:53:36 EDT



 Thanks to those of you who have replied to my queries concerning
 "Some questions about Quakerism". From most of the answers and my
 reading of other articles in this conference I get the impression
 that Quakers are very similar to Universal Unitarians, which is a
 popular religious group here in New England. Could anyone shed some
 light on what differenciates the Quakers from the Unitarians?

 Elbert


Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
From: n7949188@henson.cc.wwu.edu (John Hatten)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
Subject: Re: Question: Quakerism vs Unitarianism?
Date: 13 Jan 93 04:30:57 GMT
Article-I.D.: henson.1993Jan13.043057.7888
Organization: Western Washington University


  As a current attender at our local Friends Meeting and having been raised
more UU than anything else, I understand your question. For me the
difference is the UU's are more intellectual while Quaker's are more open to
"leadings" - listening to the voice/god within. I appreciate the silence of
our worship (some Meetings are different in this regard) and that we look
for the light/good/god within each being. The rich history of challenges to
injustice is inspiring. Both groups are active in social justice causes.
  Just some passing thoughts...
John Hatten
Bellingham, WA
From: rbear@donald.uoregon.edu (Richard Bear)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
Subject: Re: Inner Light
Date: 12 Jan 1993 14:09 PST
Organization: University of Oregon
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: donald.uoregon.edu
Summary: Summary
Keywords: Simplicity & faith
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

I have never met anyone who was successfully *argued* into Christian faith.
Myself, I'd find life easier in a lot of ways by giving up the whole
Crusades/Jew bashing/gay bashing encrusted Christianity bandwagon, but
unfortunately--I know of no other way of putting this--I've *met* the guy,
and feel I have no recourse, based on what he said to me, but to get with his
program. Luckily, the program doesn't much resemble most of what I've seen
in Christendom.

Oh, and the program as I heard it was: feed the hungry, clothe the naked, help
the sick, visit the prisoners, and give some water to the thirsty. All the rest
is not only optional, but, given the human habit of institutionalizing,
downright dangerous.

And not to worry: doing these things apparently counts towards whatever he
seems to want from us, regardless of what the theologians, especially
Luther and Calvin, may have told you.
From: harwood@umiacs.umd.edu (David Harwood)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
Subject: Re: Inner Light
Date: 7 Jan 93 19:59:46 GMT
Organization: UMIACS, University of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742

In article <1993Jan7.034310.26387@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> prh2s@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU (Patrick Ray Harrison) writes:
>Could anyone recommend some reading on Quaker meditative practices
>to an inquiring novice?  I am interested in practical, as well as
>analytical/historical materials.
>
\\\\\\\

To be honest, as someone who has taught early Quaker history (to Meetings),
the "meditative practices" of modern Friends have very little to do with
originally traditional Quaker practice. The origin is with Jesus' teaching
that where even two or three meet in his name, he is there with them - as
divine presence. The Meetings were occasions for individual Christian 
reflection and inspiration, of various kinds.

To take up a somewhat different point - the title of your inquiry is
about the Quaker concept of "inner light." However, this was clearly
intelligible among early Friends, but is largely confused and actually
incomprehensible among most modern Quakers. Originally, the concept
referred to the "light of Christ" which shone into to the hearts of
Friends, from time to time, occasionally at Meetings but at other crucial
time of reflection in their lives (eg upon 'convincement'). This is not
a figure of speech, and while it is universal as a divine manifestation,
it does attend to Christ. Jesus is not called "the light of the world"
for nothing but poetic effect.

There is clear traditional summary of original Quaker theology, largely
devoted to the significance of the "inner light," written more than 300
years ago, by William Barclay, his famous _Apology_ (for true Christian
faith). It is still available, as far as I know, as _Barclay's Apology
in Modern English_, in Quaker bookstores.

By their lives, Friends are among the greatest witnesses for Christ
I have ever known. I am not a member. On the other hand, there are many
pretenders among them, who would be entirely disavowed by the early
Friends, who were faithful witnesses of the light of Christ (even if they
were radical in their faith). But then there are many pretenders among
all churches. (And Friends are kind more than nearly all - not to
exclude anyone. There is something to be said for such kindness.)
D.H.

Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
From: ba@mrcnext.cso.uiuc.edu (B.A. Davis-Howe)
Subject: Re: Inner Light
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 18:09:47 GMT

prh2s@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU (Patrick Ray Harrison) writes:

>Could anyone recommend some reading on Quaker meditative practices
>to an inquiring novice?  I am interested in practical, as well as
>analytical/historical materials.

This is a difficult question to answer for a couple of reasons.

The first reason is that Meeting for Worship is not really meditation, exactly.
Many Friends use some form of meditation to center themselves at the beginning
of Meeting, but after that, it is a communion rather than a collection of
individuals meditating.  Argh, we don't have very good words for this.

The second is that the forms of meditation vary extensively.  I, personally,
tend to use both Wiccan centering and grounding practice and the traditional
Christian contemplative prayer practice of a repetative word.  Which one I use
depends on what state I'm in when I enter the Meeting.

Like most Friends, I try to meditate regularly so that I can enter Meeting
in a good state, rather than trying to catch up on all the stresses of the week
in Meeting.  When I meditate privately on a regular basis, my experiences in
the communal Meeting are much richer.

I recognise that this does not directly answer the question asked, but I don't
know of any specifically Quaker materials on meditation.  Good luck in your
seeking.

Enjoy the journey!
                      --Br'anArthur
                                      Queer, Peculiar, and Wyrd! :-)

******************************************************************************
"We are secretly replacing the fine quartz crystals this medicine pouch maker
usually uses with Folgers crystals.  Let's see what happens...."
                                      --DACCrowell
From: Joel Sax <jsax@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
Date: 07 Jan 93 18:54 PST
Subject: The Quaker of Nantucket
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1744600064:000:689
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!jsax    Jan  7 18:54:00 1993


One of my favorite stories is that of the Quaker of Nantucket.
This gentleman learned, one day, that a privateer had sailed into
Nantucket Harbor.  As his neighbors fled, the Friend walked down
to the harbor and greeted the British captain as he came ashore.
"Thee must come and dine with me," said the Friend and the captain
agreed.

After a hearty meal, the captain leaned back in his chair and,
assuming that the Friend was a Loyalist, asked "Well, who are the
good pickings around here?"

"If thee seeks plunder," replied the Friend, "thee should start
with me.  I can afford it better than anyone else on Nantucket."


(The captain was persuaded to leave the island untouched!)

Joel
From: Joel Sax <jsax@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
Date: 07 Jan 93 16:09 PST
Subject: Short List for the Seeker
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1744600063:000:2866
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!jsax    Jan  7 16:09:00 1993


From: Joel Sax <jsax>
Subject: Short List for the Seeker

The following should provide plenty of material for anyone
seeking the roots of Quaker Spirituality/Peace Testimony.

QUAKER BIBLIOGRAPHY:
A SHORT LIST FOR THE SEEKER
Revised November 1992 by Joel GAzis-SAx


* FRIENDS FOR 300 YEARS, Howard Brinton, Pendle Hill, 1952.   
Combines history and interpretation in an excellent single volume 
on the essentials of Quakerism. 

* GUIDE TO QUAKER PRACTICE, Howard Brinton, Pendle Hill pamphlet 
#20. 

* THE FAITH AND PRACTICE OF QUAKERS, Rufus M. Jones, Doran, N.Y., 
1938. 

* QUAKER SPIRITUALITY, ed. Douglas Steere, Paulist Press, 1984.

* BARCLAY'S APOLOGY IN MODERN ENGLISH, Dean Freiday, editor, 1967.

* THE AMAZING FACT OF QUAKER WORSHIP, George H. Gorman, Swarthmore 
Lecture, 1973, Friends Home Service Committee, London. 

* BEYOND MAJORITY RULE (VOTELESS DECISIONS IN THE RELIGIOUS 
SOCIETY OF FRIENDS), Michael J. Sheeran, S.J., Philadelphia Yearly 
Meeting of Religious Society of Friends, 1983. 

* UNMASKING THE IDOLS:  A JOURNEY AMONG FRIENDS, Douglas Gwyn, 
Friends United Press, Richmond, Indiana, 1989. 

* WHAT IS QUAKERISM?: A PRIMER, George T. Peck, Pendle Hill 
Pamphlet #277. 

* THE QUAKERS OR OUR NEIGHBORS, THE FRIENDS, William J. Whalen, 
Friends General Conference, Philadelphia, 1984. 

* FAITH AND PRACTICE:  A QUAKER GUIDE TO CHRISTIAN DISCIPLINE, 
Pacific Yearly Meeting of the Religious Society of Friends. 

* FAITH AND PRACTICE:  A BOOK OF CHRISTIAN DISCIPLINE, 
Philadelphia Yearly Meeting of the Religious Society of Friends. 

* CHRISTIAN FAITH AND PRACTICE IN THE EXPERIENCE OF THE SOCIETY OF 
FRIENDS, London Yearly Meeting. 
* THE BEGINNINGS OF QUAKERISM, William C. Braithwaite, Rowntree 
Series of Quaker Histories. 

* PORTRAIT IN GREY (A SHORT HISTORY OF THE QUAKERS), John Punshon, 
Quaker Home Service, London, 1984. 

* THE QUIET REBELS:  THE STORY OF THE QUAKERS IN AMERICA, Margaret 
Hope Bacon, New Society Publishers, Philadelphia, 1985.  includes 
an introduction "The Quaker Contribution to Nonviolent Action." 

* THE QUAKER PEACE TESTIMONY:  1660 TO 1914, Peter Brock, Sessions 
Book Trust, York, 1990.

* THE JOURNAL OF GEORGE FOX.

* THE JOURNAL OF JOHN WOOLMAN.

* APOCALYPSE OF THE WORD, Douglas Gwyn, Friends United Press 
(study guide available) 

* A TESTAMENT OF DEVOTION, Thomas R. Kelly, Harper and Bros., NY, 
1941. 

* THERE IS A SPIRIT (SONNETS INSPIRED BY JAMES NAYLER), Kenneth 
Boulding, Fellowship Publications, 1945. 

* FRIENDLY STORY CARAVAN, Anna P. Broomell, Pendle Hill 
Publications. 

* A GUIDE FOR FRIENDS ON CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTION TO WAR, Ben 
Richmond,  Friends United Meeting 1991 

* NEW CALL FOR PEACEMAKERS (STUDY GUIDE), Faith and Life Press, 
Newton, Kansas, 1979. 

* BIBLICAL PACIFISM:  A PEACE CHURCH PERSPECTIVE, Dale W. Brown, 
Brethren Press, Elgin, Ill., 1986.
From: Rudy.Zalesak@launchpad.unc.edu (Rudy Zalesak)
Subject: Re: Inner Light
Organization: University of North Carolina Extended Bulletin Board Service
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 06:31:27 GMT

David,

	I appreciate that you took the time to write about your
spiritual journey, from Friends to the Orthodox Church, in such 
detail, and have passed your post along to my father. He has lately
become a Byzantine Catholic (from a Roman Catholic) and through his
interest I have learned a great deal about Orthodoxy and Eastern Rite
Catholicism, with which it has a great deal in common.

He is also getting pretty good at painting Icons (he's been at it
two years now).


My view of Friends is very different than yours. I am not a Christian,
and agree with the English philospher (I cannot recall his name now)
who said (approvingly) that "Atheism is the purest form of Protestantism";
We do not need priests or creeds or books to be saved. Although
we need each other, I think.

Years ago a friend asked me if I really didn't believe there was a 
Mystery behind the world. I realized at that point that I did, and 
always had. But I said then, and still feel it now, that when we
try to talk much about it, we often use our notions about the
Mystery, as we use other
ideas, as tools to get what we want from other people. Or we will
lie about it, perhaps without realizing it. The stories of organized
religion, the stories of theology, are tools to manipulate people.

I think the intolerance towards gays and lesbians among many Christians
comes from these kind of "stories". 

I cannot speculate on what George Fox would say to any of us
today. I can only speak for myself. I do know that George Fox never
had a chance to read the Tao te Ching, or to learn that Mo Tzu spoke
against war and hatred, and preached simplicity, 300 years before
Christ. 

				-- Rudy Zalesak

*Eternity is in love with the productions of time. - William Blake

*Autumn

The leaves are falling, falling from far away,
As though falling from orchards deep in the sky.
They are falling as though motioning "No".

And in the night the heavy earth is falling,
down from the stars, into solitude.

We are all falling; this hand is falling too.
Look around: it is the lot of us all.

And yet there is Someone who holds all this falling
Endlessly gentle in His hands.

		-- Rilke
--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  laUNChpad.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
From: redingtn@athena.mit.edu (Norman H Redington)
Subject: Re: Inner Light
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 06:06:38 GMT

Friend Valenza is not a pretender, but he seems to me mistaken about
the nature of the reality with which he is in contact.

Christianity and Quakerism, which ultimately are the same thing,
are not supposed to be religions, living or otherwise. Valenza
perceives this, but he wrongly supposes that Christianity is a
system of fixed creeds, appeals to authority, etc. Creeds, and the
Bible itself, were not given to be objects of idolatrous worship
(as the early Friends so courageously testified). They were,
however, given, to be antidotes to human overconfidence. It is
not easy to distinguish the promptings of the Holy Ghost from
the _created_ and therefore fallen "light" which we all have as
well: the case of Naylor illustrates this.  I see the Scriptures,
as do the early Friends and the Orthodox Teachers, as vectors pointing
to the truth. How does a vector become outmoded?

Friend Harwood rightly defends the Christian message of early Quakerism
and the existential reality of the Inner Light but I am not clear that
his appeals to past authority and tradition speak to Valenza, whose
questions are quite natural. What about the Jericho massacre? What
about creationism? Seventeenth century answers will not suffice.

The problem is that, as the Orthodox have always taught, these questions
have no logical answers; the answers depend on who is asking, and why.
George Fox, asked about (I am paraphrasing from memory, so let us say)
the battle of Jericho, replied "Why do you ask, when the Jericho of your
heart has not fallen?" (I am not saying that Valenza's has not, let me
hasten to add, but my own has not.) I hope nothing I have said offends
either of these Friends.

May Jesus Christ, Light of Light, True God of True God, bring us
all into the true Day!
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker
From: andyrose@netcom.com (San Francisco Fractal Factory)
Subject: Re: Inner Light
Treferences: <12JAN199314095025@donald.uoregon.edu>
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1993 03:20:11 GMT

R Bear from Oregon writes:

> unfortunately--I know of no other way of putting this--I've *met* the guy,
> and feel I have no recourse, based on what he said to me, but to get with his
> program. Luckily, the program doesn't much resemble most of what I've seen
> in Christendom.
> 
> Oh, and the program as I heard it was: feed the hungry, clothe the naked,help
> the sick, visit the prisoners, and give some water to the thirsty. 
> All the rest
> is not only optional, but, given the human habit of institutionalizing,
> downright dangerous.
> 
> And not to worry: doing these things apparently counts towards whatever he
> seems to want from us, regardless of what the theologians, especially
> Luther and Calvin, may have told you.

You've *met* the guy!  Well All Right!
Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, help the sick, visit prisoners, slake thirst.
This sounds good.  Emphasizes activism.  

I tell you people, this plan has nutured me well here in SF.  I've learned a 
great peace from helping strangers (via Food Not Bombs _ politics aside).
Especially after I got over the little bump where I was hungry, naked,
sick, incarcerated, and thirsty.

There's always that sneaking desire to just hand out 20 dollar bills that
makes altruism a little dangerous.  And wondering if your doing enough or
if what your doing is helping kind of sucks too.  

When that war started back in '91, I asked Joan Runyan from SF meeting
just what these Quakers were doing sitting around and don't these people
do anything but sit around. And she said "Oh no, Andy, I can't believe that."
And I thought for some time about it, and eventually apologized to her for
assuming Quakers sat around. She said something about the power of prayer,
not to underestimate it, and to use it.  So now I pray, and I love to pray.
I pray in my mind, I pray to God, and I give my time and resources where I
can.  And it's a pretty good deal.  I've been rewarded in ways I don't even
know about.  dig?


-- 
Andrew Rose andyrose@netcom.com FAX   end killing
 
Newsgroups: soc.religion.quaker