HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Joel Furr)
Subject: Re: talk.politics.usa.conservative (Was: Re: RFD: talk.politics.patriot)
X-Disclaimer: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University
	of Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
	control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix at U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 93 08:14:42 GMT

In article <1993Jan1.035835.22776@cs.unca.edu> kepley@cs.unca.edu (Brad Kepley) writes:
>
>>Unfortunately, this means you can't possibly be right in stating that 
>>"conservative" has a political meaning in England or Scotland.
>
>From The World Book Encyclopedia, entry by James L. Godfrey:
>
>CONSERVATIVE PARTY is one of the two main political parties in Great Britain.
>The second is the Labour Party...etc...etc..
>
>and also under CONSERVATISM
>
>...The name 'Conservative' was first used around 1830....was applied to 
>descendents of the old Tory party...conservative ideas were expressed as 
>earlyas the 1700's in the writings and speeches of Edmund Burke....
>
>I don't know what a "Peter da Silva" is but either you have misquoted him
>(which is what I suspect) or he is an ignoramous.  Conservatives are simply
>descendents of Burke, the greatest mortal who ever lived in my opinion.
>They were the first critics of the philosophes and the parents of the 
>Romantics.

No, I'm sorry, but I did NOT misquote Peter da Silva.  He posted a lengthy
paragraph deriding the very concept of "conservative" being used to mean
"on the right of the political spectrum."  He was rather snotty about it,
going on and on about how "Liberal" means this to him and "Conservative"
means that and let's NOT help out those who want to "mutilate the
language" and all that.  I tried checking the feeds here on Nyx and also
on my home site and, interestingly, his post had been expired *today*, but
had been available when I looked at it yesterday.  I had tried to express
the point of view that talk.politics.conservative or
talk.politics.usa.conservative would be fine, unambiguous names for the
newsgroup.  His reaction was that this would be mutilating the language
and would invite sure and rapid confusion on the part of environmentalists.

If your site keeps posts around a little longer, unread this thread and
look for two posts in a row by Peter da Silva.

I dropped the subject, more or less, after his post since I really didn't
care a whole lot about whether this group comes about but DID care to see
that people didn't rudely attempt to stick this group idea with a name
like "talk.politics.retrogressive" or "talk.politics.reactionary", two
names that were proposed.  If you feel, as I do, that "conservative" has a
very clear and obvious meaning in political terms, by all means support
the concept of talk.politics.conservative.
Xref: sparky news.groups:24785 news.admin.misc:871
From: peter@ferranti.com (peter da silva)
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.misc
Subject: Re: PROPOSAL:  Yes votes >= 200+2*No Votes
Date: 21 Dec 92 18:03:33 GMT
Organization: Xenix Support, FICC

In article <EMCGUIRE.92Dec18222138@mother.intellection.com> emcguire@intellection.com (Ed McGuire) writes:
> It appears that newsgroups which would have failed actually did get
> less traffic.  A fewer proportion of them appeared in Matthias'
> article, and those that did appear carried less traffic than those
> which would have passed anyway.

A better measure would be an attempt to estimate how many flame wars
and roving noise discussion occur in the new group. A low-volume group
that is also low-noise is FAR better than a high-volume one that is
also high-noise. I have observed that groups that passed with a high
volume of YES *and* NO votes tend to be among the noisier ones (for
example, anything.advocacy).

There are any number of groups on the net with very low volume, but a
decent readership, that *I* would consider more successful than any number
of more popular groups, and would NOT have made it as mailing lists. On
the other hand, I'm on a number of mailing lists that are way over the
100 vote line that don't make sense as newsgroups.
-- 
Peter da Silva                                            `-_-'
Ferranti International Controls Corporation                'U` 
Sugar Land, TX  77487-5012 USA
+1 713 274 5180                            "Zure otsoa besarkatu al duzu gaur?"
Xref: sparky news.groups:24815 alt.native:1518
Newsgroups: news.groups
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 02:28:04 -0500 
From: "Thomas W. Strong, Jr." <strong+@CMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: RFD: sci.crypt.research
	<1992Dec28.044532.8796@netcom.com>
Organization: Komitet Gosudarstvennoi Bezopaznosti

strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight) writes:
> In response to the RFD, I much prefer the suggestion to leave
> sci.crypt alone, as it is properly named for the indicated
> purposes, and create a new talk.crypt for the policy, legal, ethical,
> etc. discussions.

Perhaps the RFD that I posted wasn't clear enough...  What was proposed
was to create an additional group, sci.crypt.research, and to leave
sci.crypt as-is.  

> I'm not sure how we do this. Can this RFD handle such an alternative,
> or do we need a new RFD:talk.crypt, with both votes being taken
> at the same time?

It's a "Request for Discussion", it's not a "Call for Votes".  As the
name implies, it's a request to discuss the matter.  If you don't like
the proposal, this is the time to ask for changes.

 -----------------------------------------------------------------
  Tom Strong              N3NBB              ts49+@andrew.cmu.edu
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.native
From: irilyth@fenris.claremont.edu (Josh Smith)
Subject: Re: Rec.arts.cinema : rmgroup?
Originator: irilyth@fenris
Organization: Evil Geniuses For A Better Tomorrow
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 16:45:25 GMT

Joel Furr (jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu) writes:

> Unfortunately, I don't think it works like that.  I've read here in
> news.groups many times that the *only* way to fix a munged moderatorship
> is to rmgroup the group *entirely* and start it over as a new group with a
> new moderator or without a moderator at all.  Any other discussion, offers
> to moderate, etc. etc. ignores the way news software works at many sites.

I don't actually know how this works either, but from what I've read in this
group and related groups, my impression was that the problem was only if you
tried to unmoderate a moderated group. Some news software will apparently
still think the group is moderated, and forward everything posted to the
group on to the old moderator. My impression was that changing the identity
of the moderator wasn't a problem, but that convincing stubborn software
that there wasn't a moderator at all was.

Anyone at all authoritative actually know for sure?
-- 
Josh Smith, User Support Coordinator  ::  irilyth@fenris.claremont.edu
Harvey Mudd College, Claremont CA     ::  consult(std-disclaimer.pl).
"I guess we were all guilty, in a way. We all shot him, we all skinned him,
and we all got a complimentary bumper sticker that said 'I helped skin Bob.'"
Newsgroups: news.groups,soc.motss
From: coren@speed.osf.org (Robert Coren)
Subject: Re: Soc.Motss.* / Automoderation.
Organization: Open Software Foundation
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 21:24:27 GMT

In article <1992Dec20.103142.17635@macc.wisc.edu>, anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:
> In article <1h0dpbINNfp@smurf.sti.com> dgreen@smurf.sti.com
> (Dan R.  Greening) writes:
> 
> O spectre from the distant past!
> 
> >[Jess (Anderson), Bob Donahue, Robert Coren, and Paul Asente suggest 
> > automoderation to get rid of most anti-gay traffic in soc.motss, limiting to 
> > NON cross-posted articles.]
> 
> Not quite right, old bean; I had no part in an
> auto-moderation scheme.  Actually, I oppose it.

I, as well, said nothing whatever about moderation, auto- or
otherwise. I *did* talk about the evils of cross-posting, and how to
prevent it, but I believe that I promoted voluntary abstinence, and
the verbal encouragement thereof.
From: ks559s442@sycom.mi.org (Kathi Seidl)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Soc.Motss.*
Distribution: world
X-BBS-Software: EXCELSIOR! V0.975
Date: 25 Dec 92 02:36:54 EST
Organization: Michigan Information eXchange

>>> I've been thinking about dumping motss at the same time,
>>> too.  "Queer" doesn't do it for me, however.  All things
>>> taken together (and I think the main point is that the
>>> completely uninitiated should be helped to find us), I'm in
>>> favor of soc.lesbigay.*.
>

>I vote in favor of the name soc.lesbigay!  It has the right blend
>of simple pride and in-your-faceness for a forward-looking gang
>like us.


I'm with Frank on this one...soc.lesbigay fits!

Chalk me up in the "yes" column, and BTW, I'm glad I finally found this 
newsgroup!

Kat
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.native
From: emcguire@intellection.com (Ed McGuire)
Subject: Re: CALL FOR STRAW VOTE: NATIVE NEWSGROUP
Organization: Intellection, Inc.
	<EMCGUIRE.92Dec18230105@mother.intellection.com>
	<1992Dec21.210804.4683@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 11:24:58 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.210804.4683@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> hades@coos.dartmouth.edu (Hades) writes:

   It will increase the traffic to the newsgroup, and this is what I
   was talking about. In fact if the mailing list is that big then it
   will be a significant increase in traffic for the newsgroup, and
   needs to be discussed even more.

Discuss, schmiscuss.  We can discuss it forever.  It doesn't need to
be discussed more, it needs to be discussed until there is a
consensus.  You are the only one I hear trying to keep the newsgroup
proposal and the mailing lists separate, so I believe a consensus
already exists on this point at least.  I have you down as the
exception which proves the rule.  :)

Gatewaying the existing mailing list traffic is the whole point of the
new group proposal.  You didn't bother to answer my main point about
traffic, which is that high volume is what Usenet is good at.  A
significant increase in traffic because a mailing list "goes public"
is expected to give us a net decrease in network bandwidth used by the
traffic, because of the different distribution algorithm.  People who
have a choice will also leave the mailing list and join the Usenet
group because their favorite newsreader will permit them to more
easily select information and avoid junk mail.  Traffic on the new
newsgroup is good, unless it is off the topic.  More people get
involved who didn't know about the mailing lists but do read news.
Where do you see a problem?  Be specific; there are no /a priori/
reasons why gatewaying should be delayed and you will have to come up
with some good ones relating to the subject matter or some technical
reasons nobody else thought of to beat the good reasons for doing it
at the start.
-- 
Ed McGuire                   1603 LBJ Freeway, Suite 780
Systems Administrator/       Dallas, Texas 75234
 Member of Technical Staff   214/620-2100, FAX 214/484-8110
Intellection, Inc.           <ed@intellection.com>
Newsgroups: news.groups,news.admin.misc
From: jbotz@mtholyoke.edu (Jurgen Botz)
Subject: Re: PROPOSAL:  Yes votes >= 200+2*No Votes
Organization: Mount Holyoke College
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 15:27:44 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.191558.28303@ennews.eas.asu.edu> sridhar@asuvax.eas.asu.edu (Sridhar Venkataraman ) writes:
>Can u please explain why the 100+ rule is obsolete? I can give you
>atleast 2 examples for groups which passed by wafer thin margins and
>are far healthier than groups which passed by 400+ votes. 

Well, what are they?
--
Jurgen Botz                  |   Internet: JBotz@mtholyoke.edu
Academic Systems Consultant  |     Bitnet: JBotz@mhc.bitnet
Mount Holyoke College        |      Voice: (US) 413-538-2375 (daytime)
South Hadley, MA, USA        | Snail Mail: J. Botz, 01075-0629
Xref: sparky news.groups:24845 soc.motss:53505
From: 00daspeakman@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu (David Speakman)
Newsgroups: news.groups,soc.motss
Subject: Re: Soc.Motss.*
Date: 22 Dec 92 20:12:19 GMT
Organization: Ball State University, Muncie, In - Univ. Computing Svc's

In article <72157@cup.portal.com>, Minotaur@cup.portal.com (A Frank Swilling) writes:
> 
> I vote in favor of the name soc.lesbigay!  It has the right blend
> of simple pride and in-your-faceness for a forward-looking gang
> like us.
> 

OK how about the following:

soc.lesbigay.announce <for news events,march info,etc.>
soc.lesbigay.archives <glossaries,bearcodes,sodomy law states,stonwall history>
soc.lesbigay.culture  <philosophical discussion on the non-het condition>
soc.lesbigay.talk     <the current whatever-goes soc.motss setup>

these have the advantage of
1. familiar usenet nomenclature
2. creates a lesbigay "ghetto"
3. allows non-restrictive flow of ideas on .culture, .talk
4. allows specific narrow info in .announce and .archives
5. no need for moderation
6. closeted "motss" replaced by open, clear "lesbigay" (no more apples!)
7. easy reference 

So how is this for a proposal?  AND how do we bring this to a vote?    
Newsgroups: news.groups,talk.politics.misc,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh
From: lhe@sics.se (Lars-Henrik Eriksson)
Subject: Re: talk.politics.usa.conservative (Was: Re: RFD: talk.politics.patriot)
Organization: Swedish Institute of Computer Science, Kista
	<BzoDI0.8EA@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> <Bzorp2.630@polaris.async.vt.edu>
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 05:05:53 GMT

In article <Bzorp2.630@polaris.async.vt.edu> jfurr@polaris.async.vt.edu (Joel K. Furr) writes:
   In article <BzoDI0.8EA@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin) writes:
   >For crying out loud.  How the heck am I supposed to interpret a proposal
   >like Brian's?  I genuinely do not have the faintest clue whether the
   >"patriot movement" is a lobbying organization with a membership of a
   >million and paid staff of 50 or something that exists only in his brain
   >after watching Red Dawn once too often.

   Well, read the newspaper.  I've read in the paper and seen on TV where
   Republican candidates and "members of conservative think tanks" decry our
   leaving the gold standard as some crypto-liberal-Democratic plot to destroy
   the world and call for us to return to it.

Which newspaper? Which TV? You may note that Jack Campin is posting
from Scotland. I am posting from Sweden. You cannot assume that USENET
participants are from the U.S.
--
Lars-Henrik Eriksson                            Internet: lhe@sics.se
Swedish Institute of Computer Science           Phone (intn'l): +46 8 752 15 09
Box 1263                                        Telefon (nat'l): 08 - 752 15 09
S-164 28  KISTA, SWEDEN                         Fax: +46 8 751 72 30
Xref: sparky news.groups:24775 eunet.news.group:29
From: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Newsgroups: news.groups,eunet.news.group
Subject: Re: eunet?
Date: 21 Dec 92 18:53:24 GMT
Reply-To: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Followup-To: eunet.news.group
Organization: COMANDOS Project, Glesga Yoonie

zombie@EBay.Sun.COM wrote:
> What are the eunet.* groups for?

They're a European group hierarchy that you shouldn't be seeing except for
crossposted articles.  If your spool disk is getting flooded with this
stuff, complain to the international backbone site that's passing it on to
you.

There is no justification for the continued existence of the "eunet" groups
if they're reaching the whole planet, since all but one just replicate
groups in worldwide hierarchies with the aim of reducing bandwidth.  If we
can't do anything to stop this excessive distribution, let's get rid of the
lot.

-- 
--  Jack Campin    room G092, Computing Science Department, Glasgow University,
17 Lilybank Gardens, Glasgow G12 8RZ, Scotland   TEL: 041 339 8855 x6854 (work)
INTERNET: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk or via nsfnet-relay.ac.uk    FAX: 041 330 4913
BANG!net: via mcsun and uknet     BITNET: via UKACRL    UUCP: jack@glasgow.uucp
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.messianic,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,talk.politics.misc
From: durrell@pinball.arcade.uiowa.edu (Bryant Durrell)
Subject: Re: talk.politics.usa.conservative (Was: Re: RFD: talk.politics.patriot)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 04:52:27 GMT
Organization: University of Iowa

In article <1993Jan2.040543.3614@cs.unca.edu> kepley@cs.unca.edu (Brad Kepley) writes:
>>Oh bullshit....Conservative changes meaning every generation

>Now that *is* bullshit.  Republicans and Democrats change from Liberal
>to Conservative every generation, but I don't know any Conservative who 
>wouldn't immediately feel warmth for Burke and  concern about Burke's
>concerns.

Ah, right.  William Weld and Pat Buchanan both describe themselves
as conservatives and you think there's that much common ground
there?  I don't think so.

-- 
Bryant Durrell					   durrell@chop.isca.uiowa.edu
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                 I feed on the flesh of the living, and I vote.
Newsgroups: news.groups
From: wbralick@afit.af.mil (Will Bralick)
Subject: talk.culture.conservative (Was: Re: talk.politics.usa.conservative (Was: [...])
Organization: Self-similar
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 21:40:34 GMT

In article <1992Dec31.135845.2219@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> jfurr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Joel Furr) writes:
| In article <1992Dec31.033011.3349@afit.af.mil> wbralick@afit.af.mil (Will Bralick) writes:
| >
| >But conservatism isn't just an American phenomenon [...]
| 
| I'm sorry, but according to Peter da Silva, the word "Conservative" is
| used almost everywhere to mean ecological-conservation etcetera, not a
| political viewpoint.  Unfortunately, this means that you can't possibly be
| right in stating that "conservative" has a political meaning in England
| and Scotland.

You and Peter can certainly feel free to snipe at each other as long as
you like ... I hope you excuse me from any participation, though.

| >[...]
| >So, how about talk.culture.conservative?  Culture is the broader term and 
| >this formulation would avoid confusion with the politicized conservation
| >movement.
| 
| It would also have nothing at all to do with the original point of the
| CFD, to discuss issues viewed as "patriotic" by members of the American
| political right.

Perhaps the original focus was too narrow.  The question of the creation
of a conservative newsgroup has been raised on the alt.rush-limbaugh 
newsgroup -- I thought that this discussion was related to that.  Would 
the originator of the RFD care to comment?  Can/should we broaden the
scope or just begin a new RFD on talk.culture.conservative?

Happy New Year to you all...


Regards,

-- 

Will Bralick			          Speaking _only_ for myself.

Standard disclaimers apply.            Void where prohibitted by law.
From: lenoil@catalogic.com (Robert Lenoil)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: sci.crypt.research -> sci.crypt.theory
Date: 29 Dec 92 05:20:28 GMT
Organization: Catalogic, Mountain View, California [Voice: 415-961-4649]

>Maybe `sci.crypt.theory' is better.

This is probably splitting hairs, but I guess that's what news.groups is for.
I'll second the motion - sci.crypt.theory sounds less imposing than
Xref: sparky news.groups:24794 alt.native:1514
From: hades@coos.dartmouth.edu (Hades)
Newsgroups: news.groups,alt.native
Subject: Re: CALL FOR STRAW VOTE: NATIVE NEWSGROUP
Date: 21 Dec 92 21:08:04 GMT
Reply-To: hades@Dartmouth.Edu
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
Disclaimer: Personally, I really don't care who you think I speak for.
Moderator: Rec.Arts.Comics.Info

emcguire@intellection.com (Ed McGuire) writes:

>In article <1992Dec17.173313.11161@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> hades@coos.dartmouth.edu (Hades) writes:

>   If there is going to be a gateway between this group and a mailing
>   list, then I think that it is an issue that should be voted upon by
>   the members of UseNet who will be effected by the increase in
>   traffic that this would bring about.

>Excuse me, but moving a big mailing list to news will /decrease/
>traffic.  News is more efficient than mail for wide distribution and
>more convenient when the traffic is heavy because of the filter
>features of newsreaders.  The existence of NATIVE-L, etc., is one of
>my prime motivators for helping this project get started on the right
>foot.

    It will increase the traffic to the newsgroup, and this is what I
was talking about. In fact if the mailing list is that big then it will
be a significant increase in traffic for the newsgroup, and needs to be
discussed even more.

>   If this is something that people feel they can just do, because
>   they think it is a good thing, then you will certainly not have my
>   vote for the group

>Let me see if I understand.  If people feel it is a good thing, then
>you oppose it?  Well, it's a free country.

    Try reading what I wrote before you try and add your own
interpretation. I object to people thinking that this link between the
mailing list and the newsgroup is trivial enough to not be discussed or
voted upon.

>   and you can believe that I will do everything that I can to get
>   other to vote it down as well.

>Do your worst.  I must say I am surprised to hear some of the greatest
>potential opposition to this proposal coming from someone who was
>active in a previous attempt.

    My opposition stems from the methods being applied in conjunction
with this proposal. I happen to support the group.

>   "Many of these people" do not have UseNet access at their sites,
>   and therefore all of their votes are invalid.

>And just how do you propose to identify them?

    This is not the point. We try to work on a "honor system" around
here, and if you are having people vote who do not even have the access
to read UseNet at their site, then there is something wrong with the
people handling the vote.

--
-Brian V. Hughes
	     "If you could care less, then why don't you?"
From: parilis@gandalf.rutgers.edu (Gary Parilis)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: SAS on UNIX (where to post?)
Date: 22 Dec 92 02:29:19 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.



Can somebody please suggest some newsgroups on which to post a 
question about using SAS on Unix?  The only relevant one I've found is 
comp.unix.misc, but my question is specific to SAS, so I've got a
feeling that that group might not be much help.

With winter break coming up, support around this university will be
pretty scarce.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.  Please send email.  I need to 
get an answer pretty quickly, and won't have time to read thru
news.groups.

Thanks much...

- Gary

parilis@gandalf.rutgers.edu
From: dave@frackit.UUCP (Dave Ratcliffe)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: Re: Give up, Dave, you've lost!
Date: 22 Dec 92 21:51:45 GMT
Organization: Data Factory Services, Harrisburg, Pa.

In article <1992Dec17.230509.24454@jato.jpl.nasa.gov>, dave@jato.jpl.nasa.gov (Dave Hayes) writes:
> swf@tools3teradata.com (Stan Friesen) writes:
> >Sure, we could all ignore you, and then what chance would you have of 'fixing'
> >what you percieve as a problem?  How are you going to get anything changed if
> >nobody is listening?
> 
> Those who do listen (in spite of the yelling) is who my target audience IS.

A fast dwindling number. Make your point fast, if you can, before
everyone tunes you out. 

> I yelled originally because it got more attention than saying something soft 
> and warm. Now it produces a different effect.

Kinda like screeching fingernails on a blackboard.

> If people are now complaining about my yelling by yelling at me, what does
> that tell you? 

That you've been flapping your yap so much with meaningless prattle
and unreasonable demands that their patience has run out. 

I'd send you a clue for Christmas but I doubt you'd know what the hell
to do with it. 

-- 
 vogon1!compnect!frackit!dave@psuvax1.psu.edu            |  Dave Ratcliffe  |
 - or - ..uunet!wa3wbu!frackit!dave                      |  Sys. <*> Admin. |
                                                         | Harrisburg,  Pa. |
Newsgroups: news.groups