From: rigg@osnome.che.wisc.edu (Tim Rigg)
Subject: Re: Response to Bob Black (long)
Organization: University of Wisconsin-Madison, Chemical Engineering
Date: 28 Sep 92 15:42:17
	<RIGG.92Sep23144540@valeron.che.wisc.edu>
	<1992Sep25.173602.2470@clpd.kodak.com>
In-reply-to: black@che.serum.kodak.com's message of Fri, 25 Sep 1992 17:36:02 GMT

In article <1992Sep25.173602.2470@clpd.kodak.com> black@che.serum.kodak.com (Robert Black (x37236)) writes:
   In article <RIGG.92Sep23144540@valeron.che.wisc.edu> rigg@valeron.che.wisc.edu (Tim Rigg) writes:
   >Please see my post in rec.hunting detailing my recent trip bowhunting.
   >In short, the deer was alive for about 20 seconds after being hit with
   >my arrow.

   In your post, you say he went down after 20 seconds but that you didn't
   approach for 15 minutes.  Why do you say with such certainty that he
   died within 20 seconds when you were 40 yards away?  It seems like the 
   most you could say is that death occurred BETWEEN 20 seconds and 15
   minutes.

When I saw him after 10 seconds, he had blood on his mouth which
indicates a lung hit.  After he went down at about 15 seconds, I made
a fair bit of noise in my stand and he didn't even twitch.  He was
dead when he hit the ground.  The worst scenario given the data is
that he was unconscious after he hit the ground.  In either case, he
was able to feel pain for about 20 seconds.

I waited 15 minutes because my partner was still hunting a little ways
away.  We had agreed to wait for an hour after a shot so the other guy
would still get a chance to hunt.  I tried to wait the hour but I
couldn't since this was my first buck.  (my partner understood  :)

   >  I doubt a coyote or mountain lion would be so efficient.  A
   >rifle would have been similarly effective.

   Are you really saying that a rifle shot would also have taken from 20
   seconds to 15 minutes for death to occur?

Yes.  Only a small fraction of gun shots drop the animal on the spot.
Usually, the animal goes 10-50 yards before dropping.

   >The point is that the weapons are equally efficient _within their
   >ranges_.  It does not matter to a deer whether he is 20 yards out of
   >the range of a rifle or a bow.  However, the reduced range makes it
   >much more challenging for the hunter.

   Of course, most of these points are all obvious.  What does matter to
   the deer is the amount and duration of pain.  The range per se or the
   amount of sport for the hunter are totally irrelevant to the deer.

true.  why does it matter so much to animal rights folks?

   You don't say whether the deer jumped the string.  It's sort of implied
   by your statement that you didn't see the actual hit, unless by that you
   simply meant that the action moved too rapidly at the instant of impact
   for your eyes to follow.  If the deer did jump the string, then he could
   have moved in any of a hundred ways and I'd say you were lucky that the
   movement occurred in a favorable way.

You read correctly.  The action was so fast that I could not follow it
with my eyes.  I do not think he jumped the string.  I think my shot
was a bit high because I slightly misjudged the distance.

But jumping the string means one thing:  the deer dropped below the
arrow.  I have seen numerous videos of deer jumping the string and the
same thing always happens:  the deer drops straight down to store
energy is his legs for a coming leap.  

I shoot for the lower part of the chest.  If the deer doesn't move at
all, I hit the heart and both lungs.  If the deer slightly jumps the
string, I hit the center of his chest.  If he severly jumps the
string, I hit the top of his lungs or his spine.  If he jumps it even
more, I miss him.  Jumping the string means less deer to take back to
camp.  It does not mean more injured deer.

   As for your efficiency point - Obviously you know (and I've been told so
   many times that I've lost count) that arrows and bullets kill in
   different ways.  Because of the way a bullet kills, it's much more
   forgiving, and because of a bullet's flat trajectory, it's much easier
   to hit the intended area. 

There is no doubt that a gun is a better weapon for beginners.  A bow
takes much more work to obtain proficiency.  However, both are equally
effective when in the proper hands.
 
   Here are some revelant quotes from Benke (who started bowhunting in 1949):

	   My early experience with 'large game' were mystifying.
	   Sometimes I saw arrows effect quick kills with seemingly
	   poor hits; and I saw broadheads fail to kill with good
	   hits, including lung shots.  Overall I'd say I lost three
	   or four animals to each one I killed.  And of all the 
	   bowhunters I observed, none did any better.  [p. 8]

	   [rest deleted]

I know many bowhunters.  I have never heard ratios anywhere near this
bad.  I personally know of one injured deer that was not recovered out
of 10 shots.  I have not seen, heard or read anything to suggest that
this is out of the ordinary.

   Now I don't claim any particular expertise in this because I have never
   bowhunted.  I note that generally bowhunters tend to deny what Benke
   says and the bowhunting establishment opposes him.  One hunter relative
   of mine took up bowhunting about 5 years ago and last year had his first
   shot.  He scored a non-fatal hit and the deer escaped.  This greatly
   upset my relative, partly because it had never happened to him in 20
   years of successful gunhunting.  He swore off bowhunting ...  for a few
   days - until he allegedly spotted the same deer, alive and well.  Did he
   really?  Was he really sure that this was the SAME deer he had wounded a
   few days earlier?  I find myself doubting it. 

I don't know enough to even have a guess.  How did he know he even hit
the deer?  Where did he think he hit it?  What did his arrow look and
smell like?  What other sign did he find?

It seems possible to see the same deer later.  For example, my partner
got a deer last year that had an unusual antler formation.  We would
have easily recognized that deer if we saw it again.

tim
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