From: f33012l@puukko.hut.fi (Janne Kivel{)
Subject: Re: Koenigsberg/Kaliningrad
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 10:45:41 GMT

avg@rodan.UU.NET (Vadim Antonov) writes:

>>Russians willingly blended with other nationalities in the Baltics, for
>>example, without asking the permission of Baltic nationals.
>
>They did never issue yellow passports for minorities, though.
>Blending basically means accepting alien culture by means of
>coexisting and intermarriage. As for repressions -- need i to remind
>that many top-level VChK officials were Baltic nationals?

Wasn't there a line in a Soviet passport in which the person's nationality
was told? I was asked my nationality in addition to citizenship when 
I applied for visa to the Soviet Union. So don't tell me Soviet authorities
didn't distinguish people by their nationality.

I suppose by VChk you mean the organization that later became KGB (Cheka). 
Yes, the organization had no problem recruiting British citizens that
later became high officials in MI5 and MI6. The fact that KGB used Baltic
nationals does not mean that Baltic nations were guilty of misdeeds done
by this organization. Otto Wille Kuusinen held a high position in the 
KPSU, but that doesn't mean that Finns were responsible for communism.

>Totalitarism does no ethnic distinctions -- they're used only as a cover to
>repress opposition. Any organized religious or social group (like Jewish
>community) which does not bow to totaltarian regime is a subject to
>repressions. Russians paid much more for the Bolshevism than Balitic
>nations did.

The last sentence is what I've said at least once in my postings. The true
tragedy of the Soviet imperialism was the inability (or unwillingness) of
the dominant nationality in the empire to fully utilize its position.
So they think that bolshevism was something that came from the outside
and Russians are not truly responsible for the Soviet system. Russians
perhaps suffered the most, but it does not make them less responsible.

It must be hard to think of ex-USSR as a colonial power, since the Soviet
style colonialism rarely benefited anyone except the military. The only 
instance that benefited from the invasion of Baltics was the Red army.

>>Nationalism can lead to very bloody results if the nation is very big
>>(like the Russians or Germans).

>note that all bloody ethnic conflicts are small nation's. A big
>country cannot be involved in an ethnic conflict as an entity
>simply because it has too many ethnic groups. It does not exclude
>local ethnic conflicts inside (like LA riots this year in US or 
>anti-Jewish riots in Russia in the previous century), though.
>Again, a big nation does not care about its ethnic identity.

The last sentence is a very daring generalization and, IMO, has no base
in reality. It's true that nationalism is the way small nations are 
protecting themselves against bigger neighbours, but to say that 
a big nation does not care about its ethnic identity is a bit too much.
Would you say that Nazi Germany did not care about its ethnic identity?
It all depends, of course, if you regard Germany as a big nation or not.

>That's what i was saying; though the so-called ultra-nationalism
>does indeed exist. I wouldn't believe myself if I'd never was in
>Estonia, never saw those new-day equivalents of yellow spots. Unlike
>you i have a first-hand experience.

Would you care to be more elaborate? 

>>Your claim that Russians are the least nationalistic people in Europe
>>makes me think that you are a true 'homo sovieticus'.
>
>You're not the first to call me such. Others had apologized, though.
>If you like to replace the lack of arguments by personal insults --
>you're welcome to show your own, well, imperfection.

I apologize if I insulted you. Though living in the ex-SU probably
has had an impact on you way of thinking, it's not fair to use such 
a negative term. I'm sorry. 

>>There is evidence that this bear can be dangerous, especially since it's
>>usually ruled by blood-thirsty tyrants, degenerated despots or senile old
>>men. It's the nations that have to live close to that bear that would like
>>to see a sane leader guiding that bear towards prosperity.

>And what? Now we should feel guilty simply because we're the big nation?

You were the one who first warned of the bear growling and Russians are
the ones with little democratic tradition.

>>The government looks fascist only in Russian propaganda.
>
>Yeah? Really? I bet the modern Russian media is much more accurate
>and unbiased than Western. I've got a plenty of chances to compare.
>It's really hard to fool people who perfected the art of reading
>between lines under decades of lies.

It depends on what is Russian media and what is western media. If I 
believed everything the Finnish tabloids are telling about Russian
mafia invading Finland, I would probably go out and buy myself a weapon
of some sort. If you think that American media is the same as western
media, I'm not very surprised that you have come to the conclusion
of Russian media being more un-biased than western ones. 

>Totalitarism deforms minds, sure, but itself it is a quite logical
>and rigid system. If some aspects like desire of local authorities to
>develop more and more industry in their regions looks illogical
>then you simply do not know their motives and the ways the system
>was working.

The other version of the story is that these factories were built
according to the orders from central administration in Moscow. The locals
(Baltic nationals) opposed to new factories, because it would mean more
Russians moving to the area. In Estonia the workers of these factories
are mostly other nationalities than native Estonians. I don't know about
the shady dealings of local bureaucrats, but your version of the story
certainly takes away the responsibility from Moscow bureaucrats' shoulders.

>>And Russia is the one that should take care of its own citizens abroad,
>>since it's recognized as the heir of Soviet Union.
>
>It does. At least it provided *unconditional* citizenship to all 
>its residents and routinely acceps thousands refugees.

Coming from various parts of the collapsed empire. The worst off refugees
are hardly coming from Baltic states. The officers of the ex-Soviet army 
and their families are not very well off, but they are hardly refugees.

>--vadim

Janne Kivela"