HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tthiel@cs.uiuc.edu (Terry Thiel)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Date: 10 Jan 93 15:20:10 GMT
Article-I.D.: cs.C0n99M.C7u
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL

jbrandt@hplred.HPL.HP.COM (Jobst Brandt) writes:
>> Oh, brother!  I was waiting for this one.  Geez, Jobst has now
>> gone so far as claiming to be faster than LeMond because LeMond
>> got dropped on a descent that he did a few times back in the
>> 70's(yes, the last time LeMond raced on these roads was the in the
>> 1970's..which for those of you that are slow at math is over 13
>> years ago).
>I think you are reading into this what you want.  I have never said
>that I was slower or faster than Greg Lemond either up or downhill.
>What I said is that when he was a professional, Lemond rode with his
>former riding pals and showed a marked lack of speed downhill.  The
>riders described him as substantially slower, not just less than top
>speed.  This may be hard for some to take but descending speed is

Give it up Jobst.  That's what you said and that's what you meant.
Basically you just said it again in your reply!

>was out to prove any more than riders do otherwise.  I believe there
>was an awareness of who was fast and who was making news.  To sand
>bag down a hill unnecessarily is not exactly friendly.  The way I
>heard it the leaders "waited" as they went down the hill.  This, on
>the other hand was not necessary going up.


You just said it again!

>> I am truly amazed that someone would even begin to compare
>> themselves to professional racers.
>and continues:
>> ps - in 1991 I joined Team Motorola for a ride at their Santa Rosa
>> training camp.  On the climb of Ida Clayton Road(5 mi. 8%), I rode
>> along side Phil Anderson (who 1 month later won 5 races) and  we..

No way Jobst!  You didn't put everything he said down here.  Basically he
was spoofing your comparison of yourself and LeMond as you well know.
I never thought you'd stoop to such trickery to try to rebut a point.
-Terry
-- 
-Terry
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: tthiel@cs.uiuc.edu (Terry Thiel)
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 16:35:00 GMT

jbrandt@hplred.HPL.HP.COM (Jobst Brandt) writes:
>than I and that "who should know better" what's going on in spoke
>failure.  I don't think Greg Lemond knows more about tire selection
>than technical people who make scientific investigations.  I think
>Shimano has shown Campagnolo that the analytic process can get
>results not otherwise easily achieved.

Yeah they had "scientific data on biopace too but now admit it was all
a marketing ploy.  Shimano has made at least as many goofy, crappy, products
as good ones so I wouldn't think too much of their "analytic process".
It seems to me that if you want to analyze every detail about riding a
bike then you would want to include some testing of real riders and their
subjective experiences.  Basing all your conclusions on how a tire rolls
on a treadmill doesn't make much sense to me.
-Terry
-- 
-Terry
From: rcamp@aed.pica.army.mil (Romel Campbell (AED-MATD) <rcamp>)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: Walden School of Cycling ?
Date: 5 Jan 93 14:54:07 GMT
Organization: U.S. Army Armament Research Dev. & Eng. Ctr, Dover NJ


 Yes, I attended the Waldens camp two seasons ago. I thought it was great.
A lot of technical riding information was passed on.  The daily training 
routine was good for this time of year.  I highly recomend it for racers
of all levels. Many riders start there racing careers with out nowing some
of the important basic. If you have any specific questions let me know.


                                     -Romel
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: adr5@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Alex D Rodriguez)
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Reply-To: adr5@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Alex D Rodriguez)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 23:35:27 GMT

In article <1992Dec31.055350.5913@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu> ianbjor@argon.gas.uug.arizona.edu (Ian D. Bjorhovde) writes:
>In article <C01t0C.JK5@cs.uiuc.edu> tthiel@cs.uiuc.edu (Terry Thiel) writes:
>>adr5@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Alex D Rodriguez) writes:
>>>If I recall correctly from their ad the tires are also suppose to wear out
>>>much faster.  I think I'll stick with the Michelins I've been using.   
>>>Alex Rodriguez
>>Can you say Continental?  I knew you could!
>>-Terry
>
>I agree WHOLE-HEARTEDLY.  I switched to Conts when my team was given a
>good deal on tires, and I was finally rescued from the god-awful
>Michelins that I had been riding (read: flats galore, torn sidewalls,
>etc).
>
>I have ridden a pair of Contis for over 5 months, no flats, no problems.
>(They were pretty dead when I changed them, though).
>
>
>--Ian D. Bjorhovde
>  ianbjor@gas.uug.arizona.edu
>  Department of Materials Science and Engineering
>  The University of Arizona

I haven't tried Continentals yet but I have only heard good things about 
them.  I've used the Micheleins for the past 2 years and have had good 
results with the 23's, on the 20's I got flatted 3 times in 2000 miles as
opposed to 1 flat in 3000 miles with the 23's.  The only reason I haven't
tried Continentals is the price.  The last 6 Michelins I bought were only
$15 each.  I've yet to see the Continentals for less than $28.  I don't
get any sponsorship so cost is important to me.
-------------------
Alex Rodriguez
Columbia University
New York City



Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: harry@cv.hp.com (Harry Phinney)
Subject: Re: Was Re: Team Motorola 
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 21:15:52 GMT

praetzel@maxwell.uwaterloo.ca (Eric Praetzel) writes:
: But it is interesting to note that a lot of time a 
: rider gets classified as {sprinter, climber, time trialer ...}.  The fact
: is that doing all of them quickly takes power.  You have it or you don't.
: So who is making up this bunk?

So you are claiming that all strong riders are equally equipped and
endowed for each of these areas?  At least we don't need to guess about
who makes up your "bunk".  Additional body weight will not strongly
affect a time trial performance, but will kill one's ability to climb.
One's power output at AT (crucial for both long climbs and TTs) is
meaningless in a sprint.  One's ability to produce maximum power via
either the ATP/CP mechanism or the lactic anaerobic metabolism is
meaningless in a TT or a long steady climb, but is crucial in a sprint.
Depending on the climb, one's ability to recover from anaerobic efforts
may be crucial, but is meaningless in a flat TT or in the finishing
sprint of a race.

: Or is this turning into another inane sport
: like football, baseball, wrassling and the others?

In what way?  Perhaps in that you don't have as full an understanding of
the sport as you'd like to believe?

: If you can climb a hill
: then you can time trial.  The only difference is psychological (well there is
: the body weight).

If you factor out body weight (which is a _huge_ thing to ignore) then a
flat time trial is indeed fairly similar to a constant grade hill climb
of the same duration.  However, most climbs are significantly shorter in
duration than a typical TT, and most are not constant in grade.  In
addition there are some differences between steady climbing and flat
land hammering.  Specifically, a change in power output on a climb has a
nearly linear affect on one's speed, but such is not the case on the
flats.  This, in addition to the reduced momentum during a climb makes
the pedaling action different on a climb than it is on flat ground, as
the bike's speed varies more significantly during each pedal stroke
while climbing.  When combined with the aerodynamic needs of the time
trialist, this results in the two disciplines favoring different
positions on the bike.  It is not unreasonable to expect that some
cyclists can adapt to one position better than another.

Harry Phinney   harry@hp-pcd.cv.hp.com
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: E5EM <E5EM@UNB.CA>
Subject: RE: TEAM MOTOROLA WILL RIDE CLINCHERS IN 1993
Organization: The University of New Brunswick
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 16:05:12 GMT

  Figured I'd give my .02.  I've had a chance to use a few different
tubulars (conti, wolber, vittoria, performance, clement...) and I am
in love with my Conti sprinters. I like riding the high pressure and
after the tread wears out, I seem to be able to get another few
thousand km in training before they start going flat. To me, they
are worth the extra cash. If you shop around, you can find half
decent prices, too. In the latest VeloNews, there was one place
advertising the sprinters for $27.00 each. I've had the priviledge
of doing some training with a few of Canada's better riders and they
had nothing but praise for these tires.



         Kevin Besner

         University of New Brunswick

Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: praetzel@maxwell.uwaterloo.ca (Eric Praetzel)
Subject: Was Re: Team Motorola 
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 22:04:37 GMT

In article <1993Jan11.090138.16109@netcom.com> tomk@netcom.com (Thomas H. Kunich) writes:
>Here's the facts: it is _harder_ to make up time down hill because strength
>is less important than riding skill and most Pro riders are pretty equal in
>that respect. 

Perfectly correct.  But it is interesting to note that a lot of time a 
rider gets classified as {sprinter, climber, time trialer ...}.  The fact
is that doing all of them quickly takes power.  You have it or you don't.
So who is making up this bunk?  Or is this turning into another inane sport
like football, baseball, wrassling and the others?  If you can climb a hill
then you can time trial.  The only difference is psychological (well there is
the body weight).
  A while ago I ran a bunch of simulations on what hills do to an ITT.  It
assumed constant power output up and down hill.  It turned out that in such
a case you lost 1 min per 100 m of climbing.  The hill was 5% 
(5% climb = 20.8 km/h @ 300W, descending = 61 km/h) and of course it would be
darn hard to apply the 300W while descending at 61 km/h (11t anyone?).  So
the actual solution is a bit more complex (ie how much can you tolerate in
anerobic generation and recover than on the descent?).  Just looking at those
numbers you can see that adding speed on the downhill gives very small 
returns (ie a 5% increase in descending speed gives you 1.7% decrease in 
time) and that the place to win would be on the uphill.  Then again if you
know your competition you may be able to drive them anerobic .....
  - Eric
From: bhilden@bigriver.Eng.Sun.COM (Bruce Hildenbrand)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Indurain Update
Date: 12 Jan 1993 00:12:37 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc., Mountain View, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigriver-248

Rumour has it that recently wed Miguel Indurain has put on
7 kilos(15 lbs.) in the off season.  Looks like "Big Mig"
is living up to his knickname!

Given the recent revelation that European Pro racers are
poor descenders, this is obviously a ploy to get greater
downhill speed! -:) -:) -:)

Stay tuned for more details.

Bruce

ps - Another data point for Paul Sery!
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: sgg5e@galen.med.Virginia.EDU (Stephen G. Graber)
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 18:01:13 GMT

In article <1993Jan2.022904.21019@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu> ianbjor@argon.gas.uug.arizona.edu (Ian D. Bjorhovde) writes:
>In article <3450009@hplred.HPL.HP.COM> jbrandt@hplred.HPL.HP.COM (Jobst Brandt) writes:
>>I think there is a misunderstanding of the concept here.  Pro teams
>>don't choose tires on the basis of whether they get glass cuts or
>>thorns.  First off, the roads they race on in Europe have
>>practically none of these hazards and second, they ride the tire
>>that pays them to ride them.  Tires are such an apparently important
>>piece of equipment that I can't imagine a business director would
>>just use one tire over others at the current state of affairs.  I
>>would guess that Continental or Michelin would pick this one up
>>because they are the two big European firms that have taken a great
>>interest in racing.
>
>No kidding, Jobst!  Why do pros use anything?  Because they are
>SPONSORED.  Why did *I* start riding Continentals?  Because they gave my
>team a good deal, as I said in my previous post.  However, many pros
>have been known to use their personal 'favorite' equipment, as I am sure
>that you know, and simply remove the manufacturer's logo.  (To keep
>flames down: Yes, this would be kind of difficult with Contis,
>considering their unique coloring).
>
>>> I have ridden a pair of Contis for over 5 months, no flats, no
>>> problems.  (They were pretty dead when I changed them, though).
>>
>>Your testimonial is a bit ambivalent.  What was the measure by which
>>they were "pretty dead".  How many miles did you get on the rear
>>tire?
>
>Like Terry said, I was just trying to show my PERSONAL like of
>Continental tires.  Note that my original follow-up was to someone who
>said (sorry, I can't remember the name): "Can you say Continental?  I
>knew you could".
>
>Sheesh.
>
>
>--Ian D. Bjorhovde
>  ianbjor@gas.uug.arizona.edu
>  Systems Administrator
>  Unix Users Group, The University of Arizona


--
Stephen G. Graber                  sgg5e@Virginia.EDU
Department of Pharmacology         
University of Virginia             work: (804) 924-9977
Charlottesville, VA 22908          home  (804) 973-1283
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: harry@cv.hp.com (Harry Phinney)
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Corvallis, Oregon USA
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 22:22:36 GMT

jbrandt@hplred.HPL.HP.COM (Jobst Brandt) writes:
: I believe that silk racing tubulars were so expensive that riding
: practically bare walled tires in the rain was such a shame that
: teams used cheap cotton ones in the rain.

If I remember correctly from some now-ancient materials studies, silk
loses around 15% of its strength when wet, and some of the loss is
permanent.  Cotton on the other hand gets somewhat stronger when wet.
It therefor makes sense to keep your silks dry, and to ride cotton tires
in the rain.

: Fine road grit that gets
: into the casing fabric ruins them as I discovered with failures of
: Clement tubulars at the junction of the base tape from this.

I've experienced this as well.  I've also had some other brands suffer
the same sort of failure.

Harry Phinney   harry@hp-pcd.cv.hp.com
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: tomk@netcom.com (Thomas H. Kunich)
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 22:18:37 GMT

I beg to differ with you. Michelin SUperComp HD's have a very round
cross-section and, indeed, feel very similar to my Alessandro sewups.

I'm not at all convinced that the shape of the rim makes a wit of difference
to the feel of the tire.

If you want cotton clinchers you need only buy Vitorios. They aren't
very popular and I don't think they'll get that way.

Avocet is a well known and reliable company. The insinuation that they
would design a machine that would make their product look better is
tacky. Furthermore, it is pretty far fetched to suppose that when they
say that they can't find a difference in all of the major tire brands
that this somehow translates to a personal plug for their product.

The contact patch of a bicycle tire is so small that about the only thing
that makes a major difference in tire adhesion is squirm and all high
performance tires have a handle on that. As to rolling resistance --
pressure makes so much difference that it swamps out the small differences
in tire brands.

I choose tires from viewpoint of punture resistance, wear mileage and 
ease of installation. Continental has proven to be superior in the
last case in any event, at least the steel bead versions. The Michelins
seem to have a better ride and perhaps slightly better puncture and less
wear mileage.

But cornering traction? Give me a break -- how would you tell?
From: jbrandt@hplred.HPL.HP.COM (Jobst Brandt)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Date: 5 Jan 93 17:37:44 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Palo Alto, CA

Roger Marquis writes:

> I would hope they wouldn't be forced to use clinchers all the
> time.  For puncture resistance and hot weather descents clinchers
> are great but they don't compare with sew-ups for ride comfort,
> weight and traction in the wet.

You slip ride comfort and traction right in there with weight as if
they were as easily quantified.  From what I have seen and measured,
these "advantages" do not exist when comparing equivalent tires.
The tire testing machine, recently shown at the Anaheim Show,
measures cornering capability to +-1 degree repeatability and
tubulars have shown no advantage over clinchers in this respect, or
for that matter, in handlebar mounted accelerometers.

That light weight tires have less acoustic damping has been often
represented as being more "lively" and therefore, more cushioning.
In fact the lightest clinchers used with latex tubes have a similar
ring to them but that has nothing to do with comfort.  That a light
weight tire affects cornering is less the case than one might
imagine because the casing tension of the inflated tire prevents it
from conforming to irregularities any more than a thicker tire
casing.  Most of the conformity occurs in the tread while larger
voids in the pavement are bridged.

jobst_brandt@hplabs.hp.com
From: fleurant@hri.com (P.Fleurant)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: New Velodrome in Fort Lauderdale?
Keywords: New Velodrome in Fort Lauderdale?
Date: 12 Jan 93 20:27:16 GMT
Organization: Horizon Research, Inc.

Has anybody heard of a new velodrome being built in Fort Lauderdale, Florida?
I heard from a friend, (ha!ha!ha!), that it should be ready by next month. 
Does anybody have the details?

Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: marquis@netcom.com (Roger Marquis)
Subject: Re: Racers and Tires
Organization: Netcom 
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 17:09:47 GMT

In article <3450019@hplred.HPL.HP.COM> jbrandt@hplred.HPL.HP.COM (Jobst Brandt) writes:
>That Greg Lemond is not the fastest descender is not as unbelievable
>to me as to others who chose to defend him indirectly by distorting
>what I said to the absurd.  I heard from a friend, with home I have
>ridden often, that Lemond was not a fast descender and that this
>opinion was formed on a ride that included sufficient opportunity to
>form this opinion.  I don't know Lemond and also would be out of
>place at the pace had I been invited on the ride.  I believe the
>account.  It would have been simple to say, "I disagree, I saw him
>pass many riders on a wet descent in ... race."  What I find curious
>about this exchange is that the combatants take as personal insults
>my contention that TdF winners are not necessarily the best able to
>evaluate tires and to descend mountain roads.
>
>jobst_brandt@hplabs.hp.com

I don't remember anyone taking your remarks personally, nor did anyone
say that Greg Lemond was _the_ best descender.  If you're going to
talk about distorting others' posts Jobst ...

I don't think anyone but you would contend that pros, who ride +500
miles a week, most weeks of the year, for decades, in competition,
with the best riders in the world, are not the best descenders in the
world.  It seems unreasonable to think that you or I, with our piddly
200 mile weeks, would be in the same league as a full time pro.  This
in fact has been my experience.  And I didn't hear it second hand, from 
a friend.

Roger Marquis

Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: marquis@netcom.com (Roger Marquis)
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Organization: Netcom 
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 18:06:42 GMT

In article <3450011@hplred.HPL.HP.COM> jbrandt@hplred.HPL.HP.COM (Jobst Brandt) writes:
>From my experience I have not found the substantial differences
>between Avocet, Continental, Specialized, Michelin, or Ritchey tires

I think this shows that you have not been putting in the miles of late.
I know few (racing) cyclists who share your opinion Jobst.  When
was the last time you did a 300mi week, much less the 600mi weeks the
pros do, in all sorts of weather, in competition, all year long.

>The main differences in performance between tubulars and clinchers
>is that on steep descents with tight turns, brake heat melts
>tubulars glue their glue and become serious hazards.  

This is definitly true when it's over 95 degrees out, otherwise it is
not a factor and certainly not a 'main difference'.

>The glue also
>absorbs significant energy while rolling which is important in a TT.
>I think these are the reasons that any team would want to get off of
>tubulars once they recognize them.
>
>jobst_brandt@hplabs.hp.com

You're not serious are you?  Did you pick this one up in the national
enquirer Jobst?  I can see the headlines "Sew-Up glue found to absorb
energy, professional teams migrating to clinchers en-mass".  You found
this in one of those British magazines right?

Roger Marquis (marquis@netcom.com)
Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center
Date: Thursday, 7 Jan 1993 12:30:52 PST
From: <TOM@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU>
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
 <1993Jan5.233527.18137@news.columbia.edu> <C0Ew0x.AzA@cs.uiuc.edu>
 <76206@apple.apple.COM> <C0HwGK.7qr@cs.uiuc.edu>

I think we're getting out of hand on this Post!, I guess this is what happens
when Cabin Fever sets in.  Let's hope for good weather this weekend so we
can let off some steam!...My ride to the train station from work one evening
was cut short because I saw this young boy crying.  I noticed he had a flat,
so I asked him if he needed help, he accepted.  After I patched his tube and
set him straight, he went on his merry way home, however, I missed my train and
got home an hour late...No big deal, biker helping biker!

                                             -tom
From: bhilden@bigriver.Eng.Sun.COM (Bruce Hildenbrand)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Date: 12 Jan 1993 08:01:42 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc., Mountain View, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigriver-248

In article <C0pLz5.BCz@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu> dsmola@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu (Douglas Smola) writes:
>In article <ll21dgINNqsi@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM> bhilden@bigriver.Eng.Sun.COM (Bruce Hildenbrand) writes:
>>
>>Jobst, by your own admission you were not even there when this ride took
>>place.  Now you are assuming that there was some "awareness".  Can you
>>bend spoons?  Who will win the SuperBowl on January 30th?  As, I said
>                                ^^^^^^^^^    ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>I thought they were playing the game on Sunday, January 31.

This was a trick question.  If Jobst had been able to predict the outcome
of a non-existent football game then he would indeed be psychic(or is it
psychotic?) -:)

Bruce
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing