From: sngoetze@cip.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Sebastian Goetze)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Christmas on the 25th. Why? (was Re: Messianic Jews and
Date: 24 Dec 92 07:47:59 GMT
Organization: CSD., University of Erlangen

With so much talk going on in the last time about the time of Christmas,
I got my old 'The Two Babylons' by Rev. A. Hislop out again and looked 
a few things up:

(all following statements are 'according to the book' and not neccessarily
inspired truth, but certainly worth considering since he gives extensive
proof for everything he states)

The story Marty told is basically correct, I just quote from my letter to
him here ...

"begin of quote"
  [that's Marty here  --sg]
>
> Christmas is old:
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> The practise of sun worship is agueably the oldest religion known to
> man.  (As a Christian I believe that the worship of Jehovah must predate
> even sun-worship since Jehovah created the sun!  Christianity as a
> religion is, of course, much more modern.)  The first major organisation
> of sun-worship was by Nimrod (mentioned in Genesis 10 as the founder of
> the Babylonian kingdom) and his wife (whose name I can't spell!  I'll
> call her "Mrs Nimrod").

  [that's me : sg]
Semiramis is her name...
  
> Mrs Nimrod gave birth to a son shortly after Nimrod died (was killed).
> She proclaimed that her son was a reincarnation of Nimrod who was also
> the sun god and that she herself was the moon goddess.  The people
> believed her.  

In fact, this family story seems to be a bit more complicated. Referring 
to chapter II section II :     [of the above-mentioned book  --sg]

    The name of the son is recorded as Ninus, later also to be known as
Tammuz and Bachus. He is referred to both as son (that is the meaning of 
his name) and husband of Semiramis. His father is thought to have been
Cush (Son of Ham), in mythology also known as Hermes, which is the 
egyptian synonym for 'Son of Ham'... After apparently Sem (his granduncle)
killed Ninus (who is of course our Nimrod), because of his great apostasy,
she bore a fair-skinned son, later to be known as Adonis. Hence the 
egyptian worship of a fair Horus (Adonis) son of a dark Osiris (Nimrod
was kind of dark-skinned, cp. Cush...) Considering Semiramis lifestyle
Adonis probably wasn't the natural son of Nimrod, nevertheless his mother
gave him all the attributes you mentioned, 'reincarnated Nimrod' and so on
(that's why Nimrod is called husband AND son...) So for the first time
a mysterious three-in-one (two?) trinity raised her(?) ugly head...

[Hislop believes in the trinity, for reasons that I don't subscribe
to (at least the ones he states here), but states that most, if not all,
symbols for it can be traced back to their pagan roots. --sg]

I've given only some of the names applied to the persons in this plot.
They came to be known under many more in other parts of the world.
Sem, for example, is also known as Melchisedek, the great king and High-
Priest of Jehovah, which makes his executing judgement on Nimrod very
believable. [This is from a different source  --sg]

> This reincarnation is associated with the winter solstice since that is
> when the sun could be described as "dying then returning to life".

Well, perhaps the connection to the solstice is just a coincidence.
The birthday of Nimrod (or really his son) was always celebrated on the
24th or 25th of 'the tenth month' (which is of course DECember). It is 
more often connected with the moon god, than with the sun god... But 
surely lots of the traditions stem from (or developed because) the 
nearness of the solstice. Or they just got some additional meaning,
because they also stand for 'the reincarnated child' that died and
came to life again...

> From this kingdom (the Sumerian kingdom; the first civilisation : they
> invented the wheel!) parts of this religion spread throughout the world
> and are still recognisable today (at the risk of offending any religion
> in which you recognise the traits).  The worship of the Japanese
> Emperor, which I mentioned above, is a good example since it is easily
> verifiable and is not likely to offend.  (If you would like "Christian"
> examples, email again.)
> 
> Thousands of years later, people were still worshiping the sun and were
> not concerned with Nimrod.  The european peoples were quite advanced in
> their observations of the sun (eg Stonehenge in England).  It is from
> these people that we inherit the "Christmas tree".  The "Christmas tree"
> was originally a fertility symbol (that's why they chose an evergreen)
> used in worship of fertility gods and the sun (of course!).

The Christmas Tree was also equally common in Pagan Rome and Pagan Egypt.
Semiramis was mystically said to have changed into a tree, and when in that
state to have brought forth her divine son (p.97) That's why the son also
has titles like "Man the Brach" and similar. And that's where the 
mistle-toe, Yule-Log and other holy-tree-traditions come from.

The candles, the adorning of the tree, giving of gifts, the carols and even
writing of Christmas cards equally come from these pagan roots.

> Incidentally, we get out "Easter Eggs" from the same people: the eggs
> were another fertility god symbol (although they refered to a different
> godess as far as I know).

Eastara, Ishtar, Astarte, which is -- Semiramis, also known as Aphrodite
or Venus, godess of love and fertility...

> The origins of Christmas should now be clear.  When Christianity, in the
> form of the Roman Catholic Church, came to Europe, the Church 'captured'
> the pagan festival and tried to change it to a Christian one.  The
> festival had a name change but the old traditions stayed.

In fact, it started in Rome itself. They just adopted more local 
traditions as 'Christianity' spread...

"end of quote"

This should give some proof for the connection between Nimrod/Tammuz 
and Christmas.

Some facts he states about the climate and when the date first was
accepted are:

9 authorities that all agree, that it's way too cold to stay outside
for the night during that time of the year (I can give the references,
if somebody cares). Remember there's some Palestines out there right
now, almost freezing to death...

GILL, in his commentary on Luke 2:8 comes to the conclusion, that
based on the shepherds beeing outside and the climate and the customs
of the jews (referring to MAIMONIDES) 'Christ must be born before the
middle of October'.

Jesus Christ himself said :'Pray that your flight be not in the
winter'.  'If the winter was so bad a time to flee in, it seems no fit
time for shepherds to lie in the fields in, and women and children to
flee in'.(MEDE) 'The above argument of MEDE goes on the supposition of
the well-known reasonableness and consideration by which the roman
laws were distinguished.(HISLOP) Expecially if you have to deal with a
rebellious people like the Jews (sg)...

CHRYSOSTOM (Monitum in Hom. de Natal. Christi), writing in Antioch
about A.D. 380 says: "It is not yet TEN years since this day was made
known to us". GIESELER adds: "What follows furnishes a remarkable
illustration of the ease with whith customs of recent date could
assume the character of apostolic institutions."  continues
CHRYSOSTOM: "Among those inhabiting the west, it was known before from
ancient and primitive times, and to dwellers from Thrace to Gadeira
[Cadiz] it was previously familiar and well-known," that is the
birth-day of our lord, which was unknown at Antiock in the east, on
the very borders of the Holy Land where He was born, was perfectly
well known in all the European region of the west, from Trace even to
Spain. [emphasis his --sg]


This is getting long... I better stop now. I really recommend the book
for everybody interested in Babylon, pagan rites or whatever became
of them in Christendom (and the other religions, e.g. Hindooism).
If you can get it... I can mail the complete reference if somebody's
interested...


Hope it helped clarify some points.

Sebastian

p.s. Any replies to me should better be emailed (too), because I'm
not sure if I have access to the net till next year (the university
pretty much closes down...) Thanks.