HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kauff@neit.cgd.ucar.edu (Brian Kauffman)
Subject: Re: Sound reinforcement questions
Organization: NCAR, Boulder CO
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 17:45:00 GMT

>>p.s. another quick question: Do sound engineers usually know more about 
>>tuning drums than drummers. ;-)

>Unfortunately, this seems to be true. I didn't start to learn how to tune
>my drums until I started trying to mic them up and working with sound 
>reinforcement people. Basically I didn't know what to really listen for.

Along these lines, as a drummer, I always knew whether I liked 
someone else's drum sound, but I was always unsure about my own, this
has to do with proximity to the sound source.  What really helps is
to record myself playing the drums, and then listen back, hearing them
from a different perspective -- the perspective of the audience.
Here I'm talking about using a stereo mike at 5-10 feet away [1], which 
should be a safe test to see how the drums sound to people standing 
reasonably close to the kit.  

But it's not clear that a kit that sounds great to a person standing 
5 to 15 feet away will still sound great through a PA (or on tape) when 
each drum is miked at 1 to 2 inches away.  So what's the real story?
(a) if your kit sounds good, a good sound person could mike it effectively
(b) you might have to make your kit sound bad (eg overly damped) to 
    accommodate the problems introduced by close miking.

I've run into case (b) frequently, but perhaps it was because of lack of 
knowledge on the part of the sound person.  Lord knows it couldn't be due 
to lack of knowledge on *my* part:)
The most common problem seems to be the amount of damping on the toms &
snare.  Like many drummers, I use very little damping on the snare and
no damping on the toms [2].

-Brian

1:  Q: This "stereo mike" consists of 2 sm57's in an XY configuration
   (57's being what I have on hand for general purpose miking -- I'm
   not a pro sound person).  Can anyone recommend some fairly cheap
   mikes (or a stereo mike) for use as described above?  (ie. medium
   quality, stereo direct to 2-track of live/loud/full-range music.)
   In fact, if these mikes could also serve as individual instrument
   mikes in a generic sound reinforcement situation (like the sm57's) 
   they'd be even more useful.
   Note: I realize that 2 sm57's don't do a particularly great job in
   this setting, and I keep this in mind when I listen back to the tape.

2:  On the toms, I use Remo pin-stripe heads on top, Remo clear ambassadors
   on the bottom, and no damping -- which I'm told is by far the most common 
   setup.
Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
From: Dave J <djensen@claven.idbsu.edu>
Subject: Re: mike recommendations sought
Organization: Morrison Center for the Performing Arts
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 21:15:50 GMT

In article <1992Sep11.161319.24000@ncar.ucar.edu> kauff@neit.cgd.ucar.edu
(Brian Kauffman) writes:
>Some recommendations for relatively inexpensive mikes would be appreciated...
>
>I'm not looking for the best mikes, but rather something that is fairly 
>decent and has a good cost:performance ratio.  I'll be using them to record 
>rock band rehearsals & possibly live shows (read "loud, live music").  
>I'm thinking about either a stereo mike or two mikes in an XY pattern, 
>direct to 2-track (my home cassette deck).
>
>thanks, -Brian
>

One mic recently becoming a hot item is the audio-technica PRO 37R. It is a
short-barrelled, cardioid condensor with a fairly consistant polar pattern;
what looks like about a 3-4 dB rise at 8-10 kHz, flat to 150 Hz and down about
3 dB at 50 Hz.
I think it can be had for about $125. 

Shure has just introduced a new line of mics aimed at the home-recording
market... don't know prices.

Dave
From: laucht@silver.cs.umanitoba.ca (Matthias Laucht)
Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
Subject: Earplugs for audiences?
Keywords: earplugs, hearing
Date: 13 Sep 92 16:31:52 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept., University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada

I am glad to hear there is growing interest in ear plugs.

Have you considered the audience's perspective on performances with such
high SPL levels that earplugs are needed?

I have attended several performances where the SPL levels were such
that I wore earplugs, David Bowie Glass spider tour some years back for example.
The SPL at my end of the stadium (farthest from the stage - some additional
speakers at mid field) was up to 135 dB. Who knows what the max level was closer
to the stage.

Recently I have become concerned about the effect of such levels
on my children.

It is difficult to control the environments my children are exposed to.
I won't even take my kids to the circus (Shrine and others) because of the
excessively loud sound levels. My efforts to have levels reduced have failed
miserably.

If the SR people need to wear ear plugs (I realize
they are in greater danger because of the number of shows they do)
what about the audience?

Do  show promoter, performers and SR people not have a responsiblity to keep 
volumes at a safe level?

-- 
Dr. C. Matthias Laucht, Assoc. Prof.    Internet: laucht@cs.umanitoba.ca
Dept. of Computer Science               Phone:    (204) 474-6339 (direct)
University of Manitoba                            (204) 474-8313 (messages)
Winnipeg, MB, Canada  R3T 2N2           Fax:      (204) 269-9178
From: chrisc@gold.gvg.tek.com (Chris Christensen)
Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
Subject: Re: Home Audio distribution
Keywords: audio distribution, balanced lines
Date: 9 Sep 92 17:50:05 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Grass Valley Group, Grass Valley, CA

While your question relates to a consumer application I have done
professional consultation like this so maybe "we" can qualify this
question for this forum   :-)  Besides not many of the participants of
this forum get too excited when stray postings arrive!

Just hit "n" now if you don't wanna read!

I suggest that all audio/control lines run from the central
distribution point be of the individually shielded and balanced.

Use a audio distribution amplifier to: 

1.  Convert to balanced for "transmission" 
2.  Level match all of the sources.

The "conversion" to balanced at the far end can be as simple as using
only the "hot" lead and the shield.  If no ground loop exists then
move on to the next connection.  If you run into a ground loop try
using the "hot" lead and the "cold" lead as signal and shield
(return).

Note:  "hot" is the + signal.
       "cold" is the - signal 
In a balanced line. 

Use a Video dist amp for the baseband video signals.

Use an RF distribution amp for all of the RF feeds.

Use a wideband video distribution amplifier for the distribution of
SP/DIF distribution.

Use good quality coax cable for the baseband video, RF and SP/DIF

I designed a system for a home a while back.  there were three main
zones and three sub-zones.

I designed in three remote controllable recievers for the main zones and used
the A/B switching for the sub-zone control.

Only speaker lines and RF were piped to the zones.  A wired infrared
system was desingned in to allow volume, source and radio station control for 
the zones.  With all of the sources in a central location it was
determined that this was the only control necessary for the clients
lifestyle. 

The system could be upgraded to universal remotes and IR controled
sources that could possibly allow for control of those functions via
remote.
-- 
Chris Christensen                  The opinions I express are my own,
chrisc@gold.gvg.tek.com            and sometimes they are wrong!
916-478-3419 FAX 916-478-3887      After all, I *AM* only human.
From: jhenders@jonh.wimsey.bc.ca ( John Henders )
Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
Organization:  One of these days for sure
Subject: Re: Sound reinforcement questions
	<H.dkL5ZTYtBvs@jonh.wimsey.bc.ca>
	<1992Sep9.060656.22351@ucc.su.OZ.AU>
	<1992Sep9.174500.27004@ncar.ucar.edu>
Reply-To: jhenders@jonh.wimsey.bc.ca
X-Software: HERMES GUS 1.03 Rev. Apr 14 1992
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 00:41:02 -0700

In <1992Sep9.174500.27004@ncar.ucar.edu>, Brian Kauffman writes:
>
>But it's not clear that a kit that sounds great to a person standing 
>5 to 15 feet away will still sound great through a PA (or on tape) when 
>each drum is miked at 1 to 2 inches away.  So what's the real story?
>(a) if your kit sounds good, a good sound person could mike it effectively
>(b) you might have to make your kit sound bad (eg overly damped) to 
>    accommodate the problems introduced by close miking.
>
>I've run into case (b) frequently, but perhaps it was because of lack of 
>knowledge on the part of the sound person.  Lord knows it couldn't be due 
>to lack of knowledge on *my* part:)
>The most common problem seems to be the amount of damping on the toms &
>snare.  Like many drummers, I use very little damping on the snare and
>no damping on the toms [2].

	Overdamping the drums is usually the sign of an inexperience engineer,
IMHO. It is easier to deal with, and you can always liven them back up again
with reverb. The exception to this is, it's often the only solution to a 
drummer who plays too loud for the situation. Sometimes the situation may be 
rediculous, such as the club owner who want's a band, but doesn't want to
hear them, sometimes it's drummers who just play too loud.

	Anyway, back to damping, there are ways of tuning the drums that provide
a natural damping. Of course you need 2 heads to do this. My experience has
been that a slightly looser bottom head can be used to damp an overly live
sounding drum. This has the added advantage of often giving a seperate tone
to the back wave that come back to the top and makes the drum sound more 
"drum-like". Also, there's tricks with folded pieces of masking tape, but
I can't really describe them in text. 


-- 
jhenders@jonh.wimsey.bc.ca 	

Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
From: jrusby@darkwing.uoregon.edu (Jim T. Rusby)
Subject: Re: Sound reinforcement questions
Organization: University of Oregon Network Services
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 92 15:24:45 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.060656.22351@ucc.su.OZ.AU> theo@physics.su.OZ.AU (Theo ten Brummelaar) writes:
>
>Unfortunately, this seems to be true. I didn't start to learn how to tune
>my drums until I started trying to mic them up and working with sound 
>reinforcement people. Basically I didn't know what to really listen for.
>By the same token, a number of sound engineershave said they learnt a few
>things by listening to what the musicians have to say.

Music in general has been influenced greatly by recording and sound
reinforcement.  Look at the importance of relating time signature to
digital delay and echo effects.  Its the same sort of issue.  Sure, it
sounds interesting- now how can we make it sound better?.........


>The comment that started this thread was due to my frustration 
>at working with sound engineers who can tell you lots about serial numbers
>but cann't actualy help you get `that sound'. This does not always happen,
>in fact not very often. I place these people in the same catagory as the
>guitar players that know all about the history of their guitar but aren't
>able to keep time.
>
>People in the music trade should listen to each other as well as know 
>their equipment ;-).
>
>SOAP BOX OFF

A welcome soap box. Isnt this the case with any profession though?  I
don't think anyone works in a vacuum and there are always those who focus
too much on the "wrong" parts of learning. Eventually these people find
other jobs or learn the things they need to know.  +


I wonder what the MIDI explosion is doing to the development of recording
engineers. All those drum boxes and sampler devices are a great asset, but  
I've had numerous students with the beginnings of home studios
come into my office to ask questions about mic placement and getting "that
sound".   Any thoughts out there?
My favorite quote is from a grad student in percussion- "I am beginning to
realize that recording is  different from photocopying, you guys do a
lot more than push buttons."

Good post, Theo!

Jim
From: bo@yenta.alb.nm.us (Bo Farley)
Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
Subject: Trident Aries mixing consoles.
Keywords: mixer
Date: 8 Sep 92 06:38:26 GMT
Organization: yenta unix pc, rio rancho, nm

After having narrowed my choices in a new console to the new yamaha MC3204II
I happen to come across an engineer working a show that tells me about a mixer
made by Trident called the aries series. He tells me that they make a 32X8 for
around 5,000.00 retail. Has anyone ever seen or heard of this beast? I will be making calls around the country to gather as much info as I can; however the input
I receive here is usually non biased! any takers on this one? 
Thanks Bo Farley
Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
From: theo@physics.su.OZ.AU (Theo ten Brummelaar)
Subject: Re: Sound reinforcement questions
Organization: School of Physics, University of Sydney, Australia
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 06:39:20 GMT

In article <1992Sep7.193207.10057@kth.se> moose@guppy.tds.kth.se ((]ke Nordin)) writes:
>In article <1992Sep4.141808.20794@uc.msc.edu>, dpm@msc.edu 
>(David P. Mottaz) writes:
>|> Another area of concern;  We have never been able to get a very good
>|> sound from the kick drum.  It's a huge Tama. ..... (and so on)

A short comment (or two)

1. (It's obvious) If the drum doesn't sound good by itself, it is VERY hard
   to make it sound good through a mic.

2. I have always found (BTW I'm a drummer, not a sound engineer), even with
   an average acoustic sound, using EQ to remove the mid's from the kick sound
   helps a lot. There is a lot of stuff in this band comming from the guitars
   (which are often too loud anyway) and vocals, kbds etc. Removing the mid's
   from the kick means you have the top `edge' of attack and still keep
   the bottoms for that `boom' dancers like so much without adding `mud' to
   everything else.

Hope this helps,

	Theo.

P.S. A quick question: Do sound engineers know more about serial numbers
     of microphones than music ?
Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
From: mabbot@csir.co.za (Mike Abbot)
Subject: 20 bit Sigma Delta A/Ds
Organization: CSIR
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 13:14:00 GMT
Keywords: A/D Audio

I recently heard about some 20 bit Sigma delta A/D converters for audio.  I 
think they are being used in Sony and Yamaha equipment.

Does anybody know if these devices are available commercially ?

(Please post info to rec.audio.pro)

Thanks

Mike Abbott
Cape Town
South Africa

Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
From: hanke@nessie.cs.id.ethz.ch (Norbert Hanke)
Subject: Re: 20 bit Sigma Delta A/Ds
Keywords: A/D Audio
Organization: Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH), Zurich, CH
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 07:46:47 GMT

In article <mabbot.3.716217240@csir.co.za> mabbot@csir.co.za (Mike Abbot) writes:
>I recently heard about some 20 bit Sigma delta A/D converters for audio.  I 
>think they are being used in Sony and Yamaha equipment.
>
>Does anybody know if these devices are available commercially ?
>
>(Please post info to rec.audio.pro)
>
>Thanks
>
>Mike Abbott
>Cape Town
>South Africa

Yamaha sells a "20 bit" A/D converter unit, there are a 2 and a 8 channel
version, if I remember correctly. However, these converters have only 20
bits of dynamics, not of true resolution: conversion is done by using
2 18 bit converters per channel, one of them with additional 12 dB (-> 2
bits) of gain and switching between the two dependent on the input level.
This results in 20 bits of dynamics and roughly 18 bits of resolution.

Norbert Hanke
ETH Zurich, Switzerland

Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro,rec.music.marketplace
From: dblancha@nyx.cs.du.edu (Daniel Blanchat)
Subject: Far Field Recording Microphones Needed
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix @ U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Distribution: usa
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 92 04:37:07 GMT

I just got my first pro portable deck (marantz pmd430) and am now looking
for good (or as good as I can afford) far field recording microphones 
(directional, low noise, reasonably easy to care for).  I need suggestions
preferably under $300, new or used, if used, preferably with cords/t-bar/
mike-stand...

Thanks

Dan
--
   ____                     
 //  %/\\   Daniel Blanchat          | You and Me
((  %/  ))  chapanna@hamlet.uncg.edu | and Cassidy
 \\%___//   dblancha@nyx.cs.du.edu   |  Summer Tour '92
  \^/\^/    -------------------------+------------------
   ::::     1982 Nighthawk 650 1985 Amiga 1000-Turbo      
--
   ____                     
 //  %/\\   Daniel Blanchat          | You and Me
((  %/  ))  chapanna@hamlet.uncg.edu | and Cassidy
 \\%___//   dblancha@nyx.cs.du.edu   |  Summer Tour '92
From: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
Subject: Re: Home Studio Monitor System
Date: 12 Sep 92 04:11:19 GMT
Reply-To: gvh@metrosoft.com (Gordon Van Huizen)
Organization: Metrosoft

In article <1992Sep10.151709.12514@src.honeywell.com>  
richie@leonardo.src.honeywell.com (Rich Olson 7758) writes:
> 
> 	In the very near future, I will be purchasing an  
inexpensive/quality home studio monitor system.  Does anyone have any  
advice on amps and speakers that should be considered?  I am hoping the  
total cost will be under $1000.
> 
> 	Also, does anyone have any comments on the new JBL monitor  
speakers (the 4200 line, I think)?  Is there also any comments on the new  
Alesis Studio amp (can't remember the model number)?
> 
> 	Any and all advice will be welcome.  I am presently using consumer  
speakers and receiver.  
> 
> Thanks!!!
> 

I'm using the Alesis RA-100 to drive a pair of Tannoy PBM-8's. I've been  
really pleased with the combination, particularly for the money.

Gordon
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Van Huizen           vox: 619.488.9411  fax: 619.488.3045
Metrosoft                   gvh@metrosoft.com [NeXTmail welcome]
----------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
From: jay@cmn19.Stanford.EDU (Jay Kadis)
Subject: Re: 20 bit Sigma Delta A/Ds
Organization: DSO, Stanford University
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 92 16:15:51 GMT

In article <1992Sep14.074647.4064@bernina.ethz.ch>  
hanke@nessie.cs.id.ethz.ch (Norbert Hanke) writes:
> In article <mabbot.3.716217240@csir.co.za> mabbot@csir.co.za (Mike  
Abbot) writes:
> >I recently heard about some 20 bit Sigma delta A/D converters for  
audio.  I 
> >think they are being used in Sony and Yamaha equipment.
> >
> >Does anybody know if these devices are available commercially ?
> >
> >(Please post info to rec.audio.pro)
> >
> >Thanks
> >
> >Mike Abbott
> >Cape Town
> >South Africa
> 
> Yamaha sells a "20 bit" A/D converter unit, there are a 2 and a 8  
channel
> version, if I remember correctly. However, these converters have only 20
> bits of dynamics, not of true resolution: conversion is done by using
> 2 18 bit converters per channel, one of them with additional 12 dB (-> 2
> bits) of gain and switching between the two dependent on the input  
level.
> This results in 20 bits of dynamics and roughly 18 bits of resolution.
> 
> Norbert Hanke
> ETH Zurich, Switzerland

Actually, the Yamaha AD8X converter claims only 19 bit conversion,  
although the recorders (DRU-8 and DMR-8) record 20 bits to tape.

Jay Kadis
jay@ccrma.stanford.edu
From: chrisc@gold.gvg.tek.com (Chris Christensen)
Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
Subject: Re: Sound reinforcement questions
Date: 8 Sep 92 17:51:24 GMT
Organization: Grass Valley Group, Grass Valley, CA

In article <1992Sep4.141808.20794@uc.msc.edu> dpm@msc.edu 
(David P. Mottaz) writes:
>What is the best mic placement for mic'ing up a guitar amp(a combo
>with one 12" speaker).  I have a Shure SM-57 to handle the chore.
>This is for live performances.  I have heard several opinions about
>this and usually its backed up with "well I always heard...".  What
>are the differences in sound from having the mic aimed at the middle
>of the speaker about a foot away vs having the the mic close to the
>edge of the cone vs laying the mic in the back cavity of the amp vs...

I usually position the mic mid way between the center and the edge of
the speaker and pointing just slightly towards the center of the
speaker at a distance of about 2-3 ".

This is in an SR application.  If you are doing studio recording you
may want to pull back and pick up the sound that the player hears.

Also a room mic is useful in recording.

The center of the speaker is usually brighter then the edge.  But for
a speaker that is using cone break up for part of it's sound you may
get too much of that sound.

>Another area of concern;  We have never been able to get a very good
>sound from the kick drum.  It's a huge Tama.  It has a lot of initial
>attack "thwap" but it lacks serious "boom".  This is acoustically(sp?)
>and it(of course) doesn't get any better amplified.  He uses a felt
>beater.  I don't know what else is needed to diagnose this one.  Any
>ideas?  The drummer for some unknown reason is reluctant to analyze
>this so I am fishing around for solutions.

The drum should sound good to start.  If the drummer is happy with his
kick sound or he doesn't care you have lost the battle.  If he will
work with you go for tuning.

I tune my kick for a good thump with a low pitched ring if I bounce
the beater.  I have a pad on the batter side and I use a square hard
felt beater.

If all fails (like the drummer doesn't care) trigger a drum machine or gate
an oscilator.
-- 
Chris Christensen                  The opinions I express are my own,
chrisc@gold.gvg.tek.com            and sometimes they are wrong!
916-478-3419 FAX 916-478-3887      After all, I *AM* only human.
From: chrisc@gold.gvg.tek.com (Chris Christensen)
Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
Subject: Re: Sound reinforcement questions
Date: 8 Sep 92 20:45:50 GMT
Organization: Grass Valley Group, Grass Valley, CA

In article <1992Sep8.154816.12425@nntp.uoregon.edu> jrusby@darkwing.uoregon.edu (Jim T. Rusby) writes:

>Now, let me pose a question: Do drummers know more about drum product
>numbers or cymbal weights than music?

Gee Jim........As a drummer (and a sound person)  I take a great deal
of interest in my instrument but it doesn't rule my life.  My playing
is more of my job as a drummer than is the selecting of equipment to
play.

Some people are enamored with the technology of sound and that's why
they get into it.  It doesn't make them a good sound person!  And to
some this interest spawns a life long search for Sound Nirvana....

Some people spout the buzz words to impress those who may know a
litle in an attempt to impress them with their knowledge.  I don't
want that person running sound for me!

>We all try to take an interest in our tools.

And that's the point ! Taking a keen interest,  learning the technical
aspects of the job and then developing the experience gained from doing 
the job.

This applies to most things in life :-)
-- 
Chris Christensen                  The opinions I express are my own,
chrisc@gold.gvg.tek.com            and sometimes they are wrong!
916-478-3419 FAX 916-478-3887      After all, I *AM* only human.
Organization: The Syd Barrett Appreciation Society
X-Mac-Bust:   The Best Way To accelerate a Macintoy is at 9.8m/s^2
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 13:21:45 EDT
From: Charles Fee <CXF111@psuvm.psu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro
Subject: Repair parts for ancient 4 track

I have recently inherited a really old, sorta working Teac A4010S 4 track
reel to reel. The left side of the record head does not properly record,
as it seems to record about 15db less than the right, with tons of distortion.

My question (I'm hoping this is an acceptable newsgroup, BTW, since it seems to
 have originally been a professional instrument) is this:

How difficult is it to get replacement parts?
Have records heads changed much? ie can I just get a recent one?
Is this 4 track worth getting fixed? From what I've gathered,
it was purchased in 1967 in Tokyo, Japan..

Any help will be greatly appreciated.
---
Charles A. Fee                            Support the Police..
cxf111@psuvm.psu.edu                      Beat Yourself Up
fee@wilbur.psu.edu    fee@vivaldi.psu.edu         ---Beaker's Friend
Newsgroups: rec.audio.pro