From: garvin+@cs.cmu.edu (Susan Garvin)
Subject: Re: WILL THE REAL MISOGYNISTS PLEASE STAND UP? Case 1.
Keywords: decay@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (dean.kaflowitz)
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 10:43:17 GMT

In article <nyikos.715894974@milo.math.scarolina.edu> nyikos@math.scarolina.edu (Peter Nyikos) writes:
#In <Bu50vy.8Ax.2@cs.cmu.edu> garvin+@cs.cmu.edu (Susan Garvin) writes:
#
##In article <nyikos.715737676@milo.math.scarolina.edu> nyikos@math.scarolina.edu (Peter Nyikos) writes:
###In <Bu43C8.6ox.2@cs.cmu.edu> garvin+@cs.cmu.edu (Susan Garvin) writes:
#
#
####Oh, yeah, right.  DOD uses one of his anti-Semitic slurs as a .sig.
####Are you telling us that you don't read any of DOD's articles now,
####or are you just using the "if I can't defend it, I never saw
####it" excuse?
###
###What's anti-Semitic about disagreeing with one woman's distorted account
###of what Judaism teaches about human life?  
#
##I asked a Reform Rabbi if the view was distorted.  (By the way,
##the woman is describing the Reform view of *personhood*, not
##human life.)  She said no.
#
#Have you ever asked an Orthodox rabbi? 

Do you think that there is One True Form of Judaism, Nyikos?

###And even if it were not 
###distorted--would you call someone anti-Islamic if he criticized 
###people who saw nothing wrong with a precept allowing polygamy?
#
##Yes.  I might, for example, think that polygamy is morally wrong.
##(Please note that this is hypothetical.)  That doesn't mean that
##I would feel that I must criticize people whose religion
##advocated or accepted polygamy.  Holtsinger's quote of me was
##in response to his request that I condemn the woman for
##her opinion.
#
#The request does not appear in the .sig file, and I haven't seen
#it anywhere else.  Can you repeat it?

No, I didn't save that particular rant.  Perhaps you could ask
DOD.

##  As I said, I see nothing extreme or reprehensible
##about her opinion.  She did not say that she wanted everyone
##to accept this viewpoint.  
#
##We're talking about the difference between disagreeing with
##someone and being intolerant of that person (and their religion.)
##Holtsinger has attacked people for saying anything that 
##resembles a criticism of Christianity.  I think that his 
##attack on me for not criticizing a religious view indicates
##that Holtsinger does not believe that Judaism is worthy of
##the same respect that Christianity is.  To me, that is
##the form of bigotry known as anti-Semitism.  
#
#So far, we are only talking about Reform Judaism, which has no
#official world-view.  As far as I have been able to ascertain,
# rabbis are pretty much free to
#judge what is OK and what is not OK within Reform Judaism, except
#perhaps where the Torah is concerned.  And I have yet to see 
#support for the notion that personhood begins a month after birth in the
#Torah.

I truly hope that you are not pretending to be a Jewish
scholar now.  You don't seem to even understand the basic
precepts of Reform Judaism.  

I note that you evaded the basic issue.  I'm not surprised,
but I do note it.

#And I have yet to see an anti-Semitic statement by either Holtsinger
#or Chaney.  I am not denying that they have occurred, only that I
#have seen any.

That's nice.  Some of us did.  It makes their delight in this
quote all the more telling.

##(Another example, which occurred before your arrival, 
#
#Right.  I did not see that one either.

Obviously.

##was a post in which Chaney attributed comments made by a
##woman with a Jewish-sounding last name to "the Jews of
##New York," and denigrated the entire group.)
#
#Well, you've just attributed comments made by one Jewish woman
#and one Reform woman rabbi to Judaism as a whole, yet you have
#not denigrated Judaism--or have you?

I did no such thing.  As I've said elsewhere, I don't even know
that the woman is Jewish.  DOD and Chaney made that assumption.

I'm sorry that you have such difficulty with the concept.  I'll
ask if anyone saved Chaney's comments - then, you can see just
how foolish you sound comparing my remarks and his.  

Susan

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