From: bobsarv@microsoft.com (Bob Sarver)
Subject: Re: Too straight looking to be gay
Date: 03 Sep 92 02:26:05 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corp.



In article <2AA43B35.13060@ics.uci.edu> tittle@ics.uci.edu (Cindy Tittle Moore) writes:
>Suppose I don't like chocolate chip cookies.  Now, there is one of two
>ways I can go about "expressing" this dislike of mine.  I can simply
>refrain from sampling chocolate chip cookies as they are offered, or I
>can stand up on the table and proclaim my dislike of chocolate chip cookies.
>Anyway, the point is, once you stand on the table, you offend everyone
>else who *does* like chocolate chip cookies.

(dyer)
/Actually, you also offend everybody who *IS* a chocolate chip cookie,
/an arguably worse offense.


Except that what Jess advocates is changing Alan's mind about 
his dislike of c. c. cookies.  Alan dislikes the cookies for reasons
Jess doesn't approve of.  And since there are *no* *valid* *reasons*
to dislike c.c. cookies (at least not here in the Chocolate Chip Cookie
Cabal), obviously Alan's mind has to be changed.  The Cookie Facts are 
universally accepted as True; anyone who disagrees simply needs to be
returned to batter and re-baked.



(tittle)
>Furthermore, that you
>felt it necessary to call attention to this by standing on the table
>when you could have simply passed it by brings up the next question of
>*why* is it that you dislike chocolate chip cookies?  Simple dislike
>no longer seems to be the real motivation, because simple dislike
>would have been satisfied with that "no thanks."

(dyer)
Yep.


Except that this is soc.cookies, where discussion of issues related to
cookies is supposed to be okay.

Except that everyone else seems to like c.c. cookies, and is bent on
haranging anyone who publicly states they dislike c.c. cookies.  "Go
along with us, we all *adore* c.c. cookies--don't you?"  "I said, 'Don't
You'?"  "I SAID, 'DON'T YOU'?"

And also, discussion about why no one else likes our cookies is also
a relevant topic.  Can we improve the recipe?  Is the marketing correct?
How about the packaging?  Why do non-cookie eaters crumble our cookies?




(tittle)
>I can't quite carry this analogy further without it melting, so I'll
>skip the rest of the parable and point out that by standing on the
>table over "nellyness", so to speak, you've raised the question of how
>much homophobia YOU have.

(dyer)
Bingo.

BZZT.  Wrong.  Tell the lovely couple what they've won, Johnny . . .

Only a "see it my way or else" mindset like yours would insist that a 
dislike of nelliness == homophobia.  Homophobia is "fear of homosexuals".
Not all gays are nelly, not all nellies are gay.  

Furthermore, someone can dislike (or feel disgust) for something without 
being afraid (phobia) of that something; they are not related.  I feel
disgust for dyer; but I am not afraid of him.  

I can't speak for Alan, but I have a personal dislike of nelliness 
REGARDLESS OF SEXUAL ORIENTATION.  I don't like it in straight
men, bi men, or gay men.  It's the behavior pattern, not the person or
the person's sexuality that I find personally not to my liking.




/(dyer)
/There are lots of groups of people I might have some vague, unformed
/dislike of, but I generally keep my mouth shut about 'em so as not to
/unduly offend those unlucky enough to be on my shitlist,

Oooh.  God, I didn't know that this discussion might actually make
me "unlucky" enough to be put on the Great Steve Dyer's Almighty
Shit Fucking List.  

Maybe I should retract my statement and admit fear of Steve Dyer; I 
am not sure mortal man can live through his righteous rage.



(dyer)
/ AND because
/I try to avoid acting dumb and having others think poorly of me.


Well; the horse has already gone, slam the barn door shut as many 
times as you want.