From: fester@island.COM (Mike Fester)
Subject: Re: Not a Myth at All
Organization: /usr/local/rn/organization
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 16:45:00 GMT

In article <1992Dec13.005648.8260@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU> jcliu@euler.Berkeley.EDU (James C. Liu - Nucl. Engin. UC Berkeley) writes:
>In article <RHB.92Dec12184144@world.std.com> rhb@world.std.com (Robert 
>H Brueckner) writes:
>
>>Well, the fact is, I speak much better Japanese than I do French. But
>>my pathetic attempts at Francaise were greeted warmly by anyone I met.
>>Whether they laughed at me after I left I don't know, and I don't much
>>care. But with Japanese people I do notice that it is very difficult
>>to get into a Japanese conversation at all with them. They switch to
>>English at the end of the first sentence and, even though my Japanese
>>is passable and articulate, seem totally uninterested. This is what
>
>A lot of gaijin "think" they are articulate in Japanese or even Chinese
>for that matter.  But they're ....they're...how to put this kindly...
>They're NOT.  IMHO, it often hurts to listen to gaijin massacre Japanese

Many, however, are. I have friends who speak fluently, to the point that,
over the phone, they cannot be told from Native Japanese. One friend was good
enough that even though I told my boss that my friend was Caucasian, my
boss refused to believe it until they met personally. Yet, when we would go
out together, quite often the Japanese we would encounter would try to speak
(horrible) English with him or simply refuse to understand him. Another friend
had the same problem, yet he somehow managed to be the top student in his
law class (Maritime law at Meiji-dai). I hardly think his fluency was imagined.

In any event, the point addressed above was that French would not react in the
same way after hearing someone butcher their language. I'll add that Germans
always seemed to react quite warmly (sometimes too much so) when I spoke German,
though assuredly the Germans do seem rather good at picking up our language.

>with their Amerika-ben.  It hurts even more when they speak Chinese.  

I can't really believe you're saying this; if someone were to say 'You can't
imagine how much it hurts to hear these Chinese trying to speak English, yet
butchering it with their horrible accents', I have a feeling you'd be all over
them. And I and my former roommates have heard Chinese coming from non-
Asians that seemed to be indistinguishable from native speech. And even if
it were not the case, nobody seems to care if (eg) some foriegn European speaks
English with a bad accent, so long as the language is generally understandable.

>Lets not even get into singing.  :-)  No offense to you in particular, 
>Brueckner-san.  I've never heard you speak.  No flames please..!
>But just riding the Yamanote Line and hearing what I heard coming out
>of some very fluent but VERY gaijin throats made me want get off at
>the next stop and drink a six-pack of Pocari Sweat then come back in and
>throw up on the guy/gal.  Gomen.

Perhaps you should spend some time in, say, Sendai, Kochi, or other places 
were the local dialect is assuredly a bit "rougher" than Tokyo-ben. And those
are native Japanese.

>But, perhaps you should make a tape of your own voice and listen to it and
>be critical about your accent.  I've found that it helps me.  My Japanese
>vocabulary sucks big wads as some netters have informed me, especially
>about my use of "kick-shiri."  However, most Nihonjin I've conversed 
>with state candidly that they were very surprised I wasn't Japanese
>because my accent was *mostly* indistiguishable.  I spend a LOT of time
>working on accent with a tutor (at the cost of learning vocab and grammar), 
>but I think it's worth it.  Contrary to your experiences, I've never had
>problems entering a conversation.  I interject something in Japanese and
>the next thing, they come back with a barrage of words that overload my cpu. 
>    ...Anoo, anooo, eetoooo, accessing, accessing...saigo ni wakaranai.8-)
>
>But then again, you could be right...it could be a racial thing.  You might
>have the perfect accent, but the wrong complexion.  That would be taihen.
>Anybody out there know some good cosmetic surgeons?  8-)

My data point: I can pass on the phone as Japanese at all the companies I 
worked. But then, business phone Japanese is very formulaic, and I knew those
formulas. My accent was fine, my grammar and vocab (outside of my work field)
was occasionally "creative". However, I did find one method of FORCING Japanese
to converse with me in Japanese. When they tried to speak to me in English, I
simply spoke to them in German: I'd get some of the most amazed reactions.

Mike
-- 
Disclaimer - Oh come on! You didn't think I was serious, did you?