HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: marquis@netcom.com (Roger Marquis)
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Organization: Netcom 
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 21:33:10 GMT

In article <1993Jan11.090807.16410@netcom.com> tomk@netcom.com (Thomas H. Kunich) writes:
>Brandt has stated that tests by Avocet show that treadless tires
>have superior performance wet or dry. This same point was made in
>VeloNews and other sources, not only by Avocet, but also by Michelin
>and Continental. Anyone arguing against this point is simply wrong.
>
>The tire patch size and loading of a bicycle tire is such that tread
>can add nothing to the equation.
>

Have you ever ridden uphill over wet tar patches Tom?  If so you would 
see that bald tires offer less traction than treaded tires on wet 
roads.  If this wasn't the case then why was tread, and many different 
tread patterns, ever put on bicycle tires in the first place?  If tires 
were to small to benefit (a contention that has never been demonstrated 
by the way) then why don't you tell me how big a tire has to be to 
benefit from tread?  Do Fat Boy's offer nothing over Nimbus'?  If you 
believe vendor claims then I've got a bridge to sell you.

This is rec.bicycles.racing and if bald tires had decent traction you
would expect to see them in rainy races.  If you show up at a wet
Professional race in Europe and go looking for bald tires I think
you'll be disappointed, and for good reason.

> Anyone arguing against this point is simply wrong.

Brilliant logic.  Well stated too.  For all the riders who took those
ads seriously, and fell as a result we give thanks.  Thanks that we
now know to stay in front of skinny tires and bald tired bikes.  

Roger Marquis


Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: marquis@netcom.com (Roger Marquis)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Date: 12 Jan 93 16:39:17 GMT
Article-I.D.: netcom.1993Jan12.163917.23635
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)

In article <29581@oasys.dt.navy.mil> tdsmith@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Timothy Smith) writes:
>>say that I am a bad judge of tire differences?  Or that Greg LeMonde
>
>>Roger Marquis (marquis@netcom.com)
>
>    Well, the extra 'e' says it all for me. Nice try, Roger!
>
>Tim Smith
>

 Do tell Tim, what does the extra 'e' tell you?

Roger
From: tdsmith@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Timothy Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Date: 11 Jan 93 23:50:14 GMT
Reply-To: tdsmith@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Timothy Smith)
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD

In rec.bicycles.racing, marquis@netcom.com (Roger Marquis) writes:

{...}

>Eric, you are speaking for yourself I presume?  Do you really mean to
>say that I am a bad judge of tire differences?  Or that Greg LeMonde
>doesn't know the difference?

{...?}

>Roger Marquis (marquis@netcom.com)

    Well, the extra 'e' says it all for me. Nice try, Roger!

Tim Smith

p.s. Rec.bicycles.tech is on another newsgroup. Lets get back to racing!
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: tthiel@cs.uiuc.edu (Terry Thiel)
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 15:12:02 GMT

bhilden@bigriver.Eng.Sun.COM (Bruce Hildenbrand) writes:
>In article <3450011@hplred.HPL.HP.COM> jbrandt@hplred.HPL.HP.COM (Jobst Brandt) writes:
>>From my experience I have not found the substantial differences
>>between Avocet, Continental, Specialized, Michelin, or Ritchey tires
>>that have been presented in this space.

I have even though I didn't expect to.  I've ridden all but the Avocet.
The Conti's and Michelins are pretty close in road feel but the Ritchey
and especially the Specialized aren't even close.  Note that I am not
talking about some experimental BS running tires on devices to measure
degrees and angles. I'm talking about riding bike.
-Terry
-- 
-Terry
From: iglesias@draco.acs.uci.edu (Mike Iglesias)
Subject: Re: cycling gifs
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 10 Jan 93 02:55:37 GMT

In article <1inugbINNgkj@bigboote.WPI.EDU> mrpaolo@wpi.WPI.EDU (Paul M. Szymkiewicz) writes:
>There was an ftp site cited on the news, however, I had problems with
>getting connected to it: (in fact the host seemed to be unknown)
>
>	draco.acs.aci.edu

Try draco.acs.uci.edu.


Mike
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: seanodon@gn.ecn.purdue.edu (Aragorn)
Subject: Re: cost of racing in the USA (NE region mainly)
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 93 15:06:30 GMT

In article <C0oxys.E44@watserv2.uwaterloo.ca> praetzel@maxwell.uwaterloo.ca (Eric Praetzel) writes:
>So what are the costs involved for racing.  A few friends of mine have had it
>with paying $100 to join a club, $110 for a liscence, then an entry fee and
>for that getting only a short (50km) race on flat terrain.  Since they figure
>that they are only going to be racing in the USA why both with a Canadian 
>ticket?
>  - Eric 

Well, most of the races in the US are crits, and very short at that.  A
50km road race was my second longest race of the summer, the other was
districts rr (btw I'm a Cat4).  It costs $32 for a USCF racing licence.
Club costs vary depending on your club.  I pay $10/semester for Purdue's
collegiate club which is also USCF affiliated.  As for races they vary
in cost; collegiate races are $10, the standard USCF race is $15-$20 and
tack on another $5 per race if you don't belong to a USCF club
(unattached rider fee).  Usually you can find races every weekend in 
the summer.  Hope this is what you were after.

Aragorn
-- 
***seanodon@ecn.purdue.edu***********************************************
*  Man-in-Black: "You mean you'll put down your rock and I'll put 	*
*		  down my sword, and we'll try to kill each other 	*
*		  like civilized people."	_The Princess Bride_	*
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: david@postman.gr.osf.org (David George)
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Organization: OSF RI Grenoble
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 07:59:29 GMT

In article <lkhc1vINNb4@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM>, bhilden@bigriver.Eng.Sun.COM (Bruce Hildenbrand) writes:
|> In article <3450009@hplred.HPL.HP.COM> jbrandt@hplred.HPL.HP.COM (Jobst Brandt) writes:
|> >I think there is a misunderstanding of the concept here.  Pro teams
|> >don't choose tires on the basis of whether they get glass cuts or
|> >thorns.
|> 
|> I think there is a misyunderstanding of the concept here.  The Motorola,
|> Helvetia and Coors Light teams do, in fact, choose some of their
|> equipment on the basis of factors other than just money(like performance).

and you could also note that just because something carries a brand name it
isn't always the product made by that company.  For instance the Peugot MTB
team's frames were not built by Peugot in the '91 season (don't know about now).
Similary Raleigh's MTB team race a frame called DynaTech, outwardly the same
as the DynaTech 653 Steel frame sold to you and me but it uses Metal Matrix
Composite technology instead.

Frames are probably a glaring example but I'm sure other componentry isn't all
it appears.

David.
From: harold@cs.uq.oz.au (Andrew Wood)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Vinnicombe betters World Record
Keywords: track world record
Date: 11 Jan 93 03:45:52 GMT
Reply-To: harold@cs.uq.oz.au

On Friday night here in Brisbane, Lucy Vinnicombe, American born wife of
controversial Australian cyclist Martin Vinnicombe, took more than
2 seconds off the world record for the 1000M flying start.

The Vinnicombe clocked 1:08.35.7 for the 1000M on the outdoor velodrome
for an average speed of 52.66 km/h.
The previous record was set over 8 1/2 years ago in Tashkenton USSR by
E.Saloumiaee in a time of 1:10.46.3

She really cranked around the first two laps, but you could she hurting
with half a lap to go. She was wearing a US team outfit and was riding
a pretty slick looking track bike with all the aero enhancements -- disk rear 
wheel, a smaller bladed front wheel, and aero bars.

Interviewed afterwards, she said that she had done better in training and
was looking forward to trying again in a few weeks time when Kathy Watt
the Australian Olymipic medalist will have a crack at the same record.

That kind of a duel would definitely be worth watching!

Andrew
--
  __0    _-_|\      harold@cs.uq.oz.au is: Andrew Wood
 -\<,   /     * <-- Comp Sci Dept, U. of QLD, Brisbane 
0/  0   \_.-._/     
             v      "This is a job for 'The Australian'"    Delicatessen.
From: kipper@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Kip Ingram)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Date: 10 Jan 93 16:17:02 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX

Did someone rename this newsgroup rec.bicycles.team-motorola.clinchers while
I wasn't looking?  Isn't there any racing going on that we can talk about?
When I signed up to the newsgroup there was an interesting discussion going on
about the difficulty of doing a CAT 3 --> CAT 2 upgrade; I missed the start
and never even got to see the procedure; I assumed it would be posted again
after a while.  But everything except what kind of tires Motorola is going to
ride seems to have vanished.  And even that has degenerated into a discussion
of the ins and outs of sponsorship.  When I first saw that item pop up, I 
thought "Neat, that's an interesting bit of news".  Who would have thought 
that the topic would have become the "raison d'etre" of the newsgroup?

Who won the latest race!?

Kip Ingram
kipper@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
From: jbrandt@hplred.HPL.HP.COM (Jobst Brandt)
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1993 01:54:05 GMT
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Palo Alto, CA
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing

> Oh, brother!  I was waiting for this one.  Geez, Jobst has now
> gone so far as claiming to be faster than LeMond because LeMond
> got dropped on a descent that he did a few times back in the
> 70's(yes, the last time LeMond raced on these roads was the in the
> 1970's..which for those of you that are slow at math is over 13
> years ago).

I think you are reading into this what you want.  I have never said
that I was slower or faster than Greg Lemond either up or downhill.
What I said is that when he was a professional, Lemond rode with his
former riding pals and showed a marked lack of speed downhill.  The
riders described him as substantially slower, not just less than top
speed.  This may be hard for some to take but descending speed is
not a major advantage in bike racing.  It helps but, for instance,
Bahamontes won the TdF even though he was one of the slowest down
hills.  He won king of the mountain by wide margins and had to be
towed up to the leaders again after the descents that he finished
way down.

> Another factor that you fail to consider is that maybe LeMond
> doesn't give a hoot if he gets dropped in the first turn.  LeMond
> makes $2 million a year racing his bike and has won 3 Tours de
> France and 3 World Championships.  He 1) has nothing to prove to
> this group of riders and 2) has everything to lose if he were to
> get injured doing something stupid(remember the turkey hunting
> incident).

I'm sorry to appear to fail in considerations but I considered more
than that.  This was a ride with a couple of old friends and no one
was out to prove any more than riders do otherwise.  I believe there
was an awareness of who was fast and who was making news.  To sand
bag down a hill unnecessarily is not exactly friendly.  The way I
heard it the leaders "waited" as they went down the hill.  This, on
the other hand was not necessary going up.

> Jobst, you should be ashamed of yourself for stretching the limits
> sooooooo far to try and make a point that is so ridiculous.  Of
> course, Jobst will rebutt and say(just as he does with max speed
> claims) that he is not claiming to be a better descender than
> LeMond, but he has made that remark to people in public so I think
> it applies.

If you look at what you said carefully you will note that YOU are
the one who said that I descend faster than Lemond, not I.  What is
this "made this remark in public".  Well you had better fetch that
posting.  I have never made that statement talking or writing, nor
have I ever ridden with him or claim to.

> I am truly amazed that someone would even begin to compare
> themselves to professional racers.

and continues:

> ps - in 1991 I joined Team Motorola for a ride at their Santa Rosa
> training camp.  On the climb of Ida Clayton Road(5 mi. 8%), I rode
> along side Phil Anderson (who 1 month later won 5 races) and  we..

jobst_brandt@hplabs.hp.com
From: jbrandt@hplred.HPL.HP.COM (Jobst Brandt)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 18:09:51 GMT
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Palo Alto, CA
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing

Bruce Hildenbrand writes:

> The teams do indeed make decisions based on factors other than
> money alone.

From my experience I have not found the substantial differences
between Avocet, Continental, Specialized, Michelin, or Ritchey tires
that have been presented in this space.  I have been able to tell
that thinner rubber wears out faster and that these brands all have
different thicknesses of rubber depending on size and model.
Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that these and other tires
could all meet the requirements of a professional team.  It's not
as though there were substantial differences between the leading
brands in this respect.

The main differences in performance between tubulars and clinchers
is that on steep descents with tight turns, brake heat melts
tubulars glue their glue and become serious hazards.  The glue also
absorbs significant energy while rolling which is imprtant in a TT.
I think these are the reasons that any team would want to get off of
tubulars once they recognize them.

On the other hand, if you choose Greg Lemond as an example, you will
notice that he rode with a Ciclomaster speedometer the last couple
of seasons.  This instrument has such a miserable performance record
that it can hardly be found on the US market.  In fact it is equally
absent from the handlebars of professional racers for the same
reason.  When Greg switched from Avocet to Ciclomaster the sponsor
money made the difference.  Ciclomaster could afford only one rider
at that price.  On the other hand most professional riders that use
Avocet speedometer are not paid but use the instrument by choice.

jobst_brandt@hplabs.hp.com
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: tthiel@cs.uiuc.edu (Terry Thiel)
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 15:24:35 GMT

tomk@netcom.com (Thomas H. Kunich) writes:
>In article <1993Jan6.225208.27344@netcom.com> marquis@netcom.com (Roger Marquis) writes:

>>Huh?  Avocet is not a company best known for reliable products.
>Being a reliable company is _not_ the same thing as having reliable
>products. Avocet speedos fail all of the time. The company simply
>replaces them. No Big Deal.

C'mn Tom!  I think most consumers would strongly disagree with that
statement! Obviously a reliable company makes reliable products.  The
fact that they are willing to replace failures doesn't make them more
reliable.  If you are halfway through a century and your Avocet breaks are you
going to say "Oh well, Avocets a reliable company, they'll replace it
when the century is over".  I don't think so.

>>This is a good theory but how do you explain the general consensus that 
>>there _is_ a difference.  Personally, I think it becomes noticable when 
>>you ride hard and long.  If you're just putting around town you might not 
>>notice any difference at all.
>General consensus is not fact. It was general consensus that there was
>witches in Salem.

:):):):):)
>I put in 6,000 miles last year. That may be small time to some people
>but I think it's more than most put in. How many miles do you figure ut
>takes before you develop this magical gift to tell traction?
>BTW, I have held professional motorcycle road racing licenses for here
>and on the World circuit. I raced off-road and on. I held a professional
>racing mechanics license and was in on the development of the Yamaha
>350 road racer back in the 60's. I do know something about traction.

Wow!  You are truly my hero!  That's six "I's" in one paragraph.

>Believe me, you can only tell the broadest, most gross differences
>by feel. There is no way that you are going to tell the difference of
>a couple of percent between the most tractive, and the least, compounds
>used in tire surfaces. The other variables are too great.

You're pooh poohing others subjective evalutaions by rationales like this?
I am forced to pohh pooh your pooh pooh.
-Terry


-- 
-Terry
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: david@postman.gr.osf.org (David George)
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Organization: OSF RI Grenoble
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 10:55:21 GMT

In article <3450011@hplred.HPL.HP.COM>, jbrandt@hplred.HPL.HP.COM (Jobst Brandt) writes:
|> The main differences in performance between tubulars and clinchers
|> is that on steep descents with tight turns, brake heat melts
|> tubulars glue their glue and become serious hazards.

I feel this is more a reflection on the choice of glue than a limitation
of tubulars.  A glue such as Evostick contact adhesive (favoured by some
track riders) won't soften with heat like the old rubber solution glues.
Of course removing a tire becomes more of a problem.  Tub tape is also
quite effective.


One negative experience I have with clinchers is with blowouts.  Whereas
a tub. remains stuck to the rim and can be ridden on when flat a blowout
in a clincher tire leaves you maybe descending on a couple of ridges of
aluminium.  I've had both happen in a road race and I know which tire I
prefer.


David.
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: stek@amazon.pfc.mit.edu
Subject: Job opening: running training series in Boston
Organization: MIT PLASMA FUSION CENTER
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 03:08:57 GMT

The Boston Road Club has 3 openings for people to run the 
Wells Avenue training series.  The hours are from 
8:00 to 2:00 every Sunday from March 7 till mid October.  
Pay is $8 per hour.  Employees will be required to attend a 
one day seminar on officiating in February and become a USCF 
Category 4 official. For more info please contact me at
(617) 253-0516
or Stek@pfc.mit.edu
Paul Stek
president 
Boston Road Club   
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: praetzel@maxwell.uwaterloo.ca (Eric Praetzel)
Subject: cost of racing in the USA (NE region mainly)
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 13:11:16 GMT

So what are the costs involved for racing.  A few friends of mine have had it
with paying $100 to join a club, $110 for a liscence, then an entry fee and
for that getting only a short (50km) race on flat terrain.  Since they figure
that they are only going to be racing in the USA why both with a Canadian 
ticket?
  - Eric 
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: E5EM <E5EM@UNB.CA>
Subject: Slick tires
Organization: The University of New Brunswick
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 16:50:53 GMT

 Since some of you were talking about slick tires being
untrustworthy I thought I would mention an article from a back issue
of Velo News.  I forget which issue it was, but the article was
about continental tires and the writer apparently talked with a
representative from the factory. This representative said that the
-only- reason they make some of their racing tires with treads is
because the consumer expects to see one. He says that the slick
tires actually have a better grip on the road.



     Kevin Besner

     University of New Brunswick

Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: tthiel@cs.uiuc.edu (Terry Thiel)
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 17:55:32 GMT

ehouse@Apple.COM (Eric House) writes:
>>Michelins were my favs until I got Conti Grand Prixs.  They are pretty damn
>>expensive although you might want to try Super Sports.  
>Super Sports get a lot more flats than Michelins in my rather limited
>experience.  I haven't tried Gran Prix: they're too expensive for the
>mileage my friends get out of them.
>I mean, I got like millions of flats in like hardly any miles at all with
>Super Sports, and like hardly any flats on big-sized Michelins in trillions
>of miles.  Sorry not to be any more precise, but I'm not like conducting
>scientific experiments or anything.  I just don't like the tires.

You're not being scientific!  Horrors!  ;)  Were the Supersports and the
Michelins the same width?
-Terry
-- 
-Terry
From: machina@uts.amdahl.com (Miguel A. Ramirez)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: cost of racing in the USA (NE region mainly)
Date: 12 Jan 93 07:43:35 GMT
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <C0oxys.E44@watserv2.uwaterloo.ca> praetzel@maxwell.uwaterloo.ca (Eric Praetzel) writes:
>So what are the costs involved for racing.  A few friends of mine have had it
>with paying $100 to join a club, $110 for a liscence, then an entry fee and
>for that getting only a short (50km) race on flat terrain.  Since they figure
>that they are only going to be racing in the USA why both with a Canadian 
>ticket?
>  - Eric 

Here in NorCal it's $35.00 for a doemstic liscence, $60.00 to join most local
cycling clubs (Shaw's/Garden City for example). 

Race entries vary from a low of $12.00 to $20.00 to as high as $60.00 for 
multi-day events (Mammoth: 3 races, 3 days, $60.00). 


-- 

Miguel A. Ramirez, | machina@uts.amdahl.com | {sun,uunet}!amdahl!machina

Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: kiisaka@csi.uottawa.ca (Ken Iisaka (the mad pianist))
Subject: Re: TEAM MOTOROLA WILL RIDE CLINCHERS IN 1993
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, University of Ottawa
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 93 18:40:18 GMT

In article <1993Jan6.170249.9672@viewlogic.com> greg@mobius.viewlogic.com (Gregory Larkin) writes:
>Have they fixed the problem with the base tape falling off after
>a month or so of riding?  I bought one of these tires last year
>and after a while, it seemed like the glue holding the base tape
>on disappeared.  I heard a rumor that this has been corrected.  At
>the time, I think I was using Wolber glue.  Do I need to use
>a special glue?
>
>Other than that, I thought the tire was great!
>

I never experienced that problem.  

I'll second that.  They're decent stuff.

-- 
Ken Iisaka
kiisaka@csi.uottawa.ca
AI Lab, University of Ottawa
H: +1 613 237 6642  W: 564 8155
From: bhilden@bigriver.Eng.Sun.COM (Bruce Hildenbrand)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: Racers and Tires
Date: 12 Jan 93 17:51:51 GMT
Organization: Sun
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigriver-248

In article <3450019@hplred.HPL.HP.COM> jbrandt@hplred.HPL.HP.COM (Jobst Brandt) writes:
>That Greg Lemond is not the fastest descender is not as unbelievable
>to me as to others who chose to defend him indirectly by distorting
>what I said to the absurd.  I heard from a friend, with home I have
>ridden often, that Lemond was not a fast descender and that this
>opinion was formed on a ride that included sufficient opportunity to
>form this opinion.  I don't know Lemond and also would be out of
>place at the pace had I been invited on the ride.  I believe the
>account.  It would have been simple to say, "I disagree, I saw him
>pass many riders on a wet descent in ... race."  What I find curious
>about this exchange is that the combatants take as personal insults
>my contention that TdF winners are not necessarily the best able to
>evaluate tires and to descend mountain roads.

I disagree, I saw Greg LeMond pass many riders on a wet descent during
the 1986 Tour of Switzerland(1st stage - 176km - Winterthur to Winterthur).

Bruce
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing