From: bobsarv@microsoft.com (Bob Sarver)
Subject: Re: Redefining masculinity
Date: 20 Aug 92 21:05:21 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corp.


(glp)
/Before I came out, I was very confused.  I wasn't particularly
/nelly and I knew I was attracted to boys.  The only information
/I had from the media was that men who were attracted to men 
/were both nelly and vile.  So at first I thought I was some
/other thing, not gay but still attracted to men, and this kept
/me from coming out for a long time.  

I have heard this same story (or a slightly modified version)
from many gay men.  The way they feel, or act, is so radically
different from the flamboyant gays they have come in contact with,
that they talk themselves into believing they aren't really gay.
There aren't enough resemblances.
Do you see how the negative images were a handicap, and hindered your
own coming out process? 


(glp)
/I got older, I got smarter,
/and I found out there were gay men like me and that was all I
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
/needed.  

Remember what I said about a need for positive role models?



(glp)
/What I had done was to accept the view of this homophobic society
/we grow up in that gay = nelly = bad.  

Then the task for us to to prove that gay != bad.  As long as 
nelly = gay = bad, then why in the world should we want to fulfill
a negative stereotype?



(glp)
/Nelly isn't bad just because it is; it's bad because it means gay.  Your 
/reasoning that gay people who act butch are automatically accepted is just 
/plain wrong.  

I didn't say that butch gays are automatically accepted (do you actually
read, or do you just jump to make the response?)

But if it comes down to comparison, the non-nelly gay men are a hell of a 
lot more likely to be accepted.  Not by everybody, to be sure; you will 
never be accepted by everybody, and that would be a ridiculous pursuit.
But one hell of a lot more people would look on being gay as less of
an adventure in bizarreness if we didn't behave in unusual fashion.



(glp)
/The people who are getting booted out of the armed forces
/for being gay are pretty butch, so much so that no one was able
/to "spot" them for all the years they were there.  

The armed forces has its head up its ass; they have consistently ignored
the findings of their own investigative teams which have stated 
conclusively that homosexuality is NOT a morale or security problem
in the military.  

Trying to use the military as an example of how society
in general reacts is fundamentally flawed, because the military
has always been 50 to 100 years behind the times in social progress.
Society has left the military (and the Pat Buchanans of the world)
behind long ago.



(glp)
/ I know other
/ people who wear suits and ties and look and act like everyone
/ else they work with and they still lose their jobs if they 
/ don't lie about who they fall in love with.

I know some people like that too.  It still doesn't change what I am
saying:  for the majority if situations, the non-nelly gay will get
more general acceptance. 


(glp) 	
/ You have the nerve to accuse someone else of forcing conformity?

Yes.  The soc.motss forum appears to be less of a forum and more of a
sewing circle.  People who already have their minds made up about 
the gay movement get together to pat each other on the backs and tell
each other how clever and enlightened they are.  If you don't believe
me, read some of anderson's crap.


(glp)
/But you imply it's the fault of the person dressing "wrong"
/if they are discriminated against, because you say that
/if they dressed "right" they would be accepted.  This is
/akin to saying that women who dress "like sluts" deserve
/to be raped - what did she expect, after all?

I didn't say that.  In fact, I have said no less than seven times now
that no one deserves to be discriminated against.  And, no less than
seven times, you (and the rest) have ignored what I said, set up a straw
man argument, and asked me to defend positions I do not hold.  



(glp)
/Have you never met any wacko bizzare straight people?

Yes.  

If any of them came up to me and said, "I am a member of group X,
or church Y", and I saw how wacko they were, I probably wouldn't have
much respect for their group or church.  If they were friendly, down-to-
earth, plain folks, then I might be talked into exploring their group
or attending their church.