HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: tthiel@cs.uiuc.edu (Terry Thiel)
Subject: Re: Wanted: Info on TREK OCLV Composite Frames (5200,5500,5900)
Organization: University of Illinois, Dept. of Comp. Sci., Urbana, IL
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 15:05:28 GMT

Pointerm@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu (Richard Pointer) writes:
>Wanted : Information on the new TREK OCLV Framesets
>From : Richard Pointer
>   I'm thinking about purchasing one of the new TREK OCLV framesets. I
>can get a pretty good deal on one. I'd like to know if anyone has one and
>how they like it. I've been riding an SLX Merckx for the last 6 years and
>other steel frames before that, so I'm pretty comfortable with steel. I'm
>especially interested in the advantages and disadvantages that people
>have noticed between the different frames (composite vs. steel).  Any
>comments would be appreciated, be it about the TREK or any other
>composite frameset. 
>   Also, if anyone has a copy of April, 1992 Bicycling Magazine with the
>article comparing the TREK with the Kestral, I would be very interested
cycn getting hold of a copy.

The Bicycling article wasn't very good.  Bicycle Guide reviewed it early
last year.  You might want to try that. Personally I think putting 25's
on any bike gives you all the benefits of carbon frames with a much
lower price.
-Terry
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: garrick@owlnet.rice.edu (Garrick F. Mitchell)
Subject: Collegiate points (in)equality
Organization: Rice University Cycling Team
Distribution: usa
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 02:04:17 GMT

There's been much talk in this group lately about women's cycling
being devalued.  There also seems to be limited knowledge about
how "other" conferences do things.

The South Central conference, I _was_ going to say, has Men's A,
Women, Men's B, and Men's C categories, and their points (and depth
of placings) run approximately in ratios of 4:3:2:1 respectively.
For the men, A's points are weighted enough that TX A&M, with by
far the largest A squad in the conference, currently have _double_ the
score of the second place team.  Sam Houston State, a somewhat smaller
school, holds a respectable 4th (of 11 teams which have scored points),
mainly on the strength of their leading Women's rider.  See?  Women's
racing _can_ count for something if the points structure allows it.

This, however, was before I remembered that we just adopted a Women's B
category.  To adjust the scoring tables, the total number of points
formerly earned by the Women was split 2/3 for the A's, 1/3 for the B's.
Bummer!  So the strongest Women won't earn as many points.  For a school
depending one one stellar Women's rider for points, this hurts.  BTW, for
the time being both cat's will race in the same pack, so the number of
points available to each field remains the same.
-- 

----------------------------------) --------------)
Garrick Mitchell		 / /  __ __ __   /
President, Rice U. Cycling Team	/ /  /_/ /  /   /
garrick@owlnet.rice.edu	       / /  / \ (__/   /
------------------------------/ /  ___ ____   /
                               /  /     /    /
                              /  (___  /    /
                             (_____________/
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: flip@cgrg.ohio-state.edu (Flip Phillips)
Subject: Re: Let's dump UCI
Organization: OSU Advanced Computing Center for the Arts and Design
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 02:45:00 GMT

In article <1993Jan22.010959.17654@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU> les@cs.stanford.edu writes:
>Flip Phillips writes:
>   So, hummm, let's see here, are we going to start refering to the
>   Tour de France as the "Tour of France" and equally, "The Turn of
>   Spain", and of course the ever popular "Spin of Italy". I'd bet
>   there are a few acronym-generating net-writers that wouldn't be too
>   happy with this.
>
>Not a bad idea, but different from what I proposed.  Those are

Point taken, but maybe we could get people to stop using the inane 'TIOOYK'
acronym and instead refer to the Tour, Turn, and Spin. I know I'd sleep better.

-- flip




-- 
Flip Phillips					flip@cgrg.ohio-state.edu
The Ohio State University 		      Asso porco Diabolus gaudet
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: jesnow@athena.mit.edu (Jonathan E Snow)
Subject: Re: NCCA - Let's Fix It
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 00:33:58 GMT


	One thing which strongly distinguishes collegiate cycling
from USCF cycling is the team points system, by which races are 
scored for the overall standings.  Points are allocated to the 
different races, and overall standings are determined by a combination
of the standings in the individual races.  This changes the 
incentives for the team rider substantially, and results in 
IMHO, a more interesting race.  I have seen more teamwork in
collegiate C races than in many USCF Cat I-II events (flame me 
if you want).  

	Another important difference of the points sytem lies in
the incentives it offers to TEAMS to build their programs.  If 
the women's and mens' B, C, etc. teams can win points toward
winning races for the team or for sending the team to Nats., 
there is a powerful incentive for teams to develop their lower
level riders.  I think this incentive is beneficial to collegiate
cycling and to cycling as a whole.

	Picture the incentive structure if (as some on this net have
suggested) mens A points alone are counted toward entry to Nats.
What long-term incentive does that provide for A riders to 
participate in the education and conditioning of the less-experienced
riders? None.

	The person who is primarily disadvantaged by the current 
system is the Cat. II rider who just wants to go to Collegiate Nats 
and doesn't care to associate himself with lower life forms.  We
can do without this guy.

	The current points system ain't broke.

	jon.
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: praetzel@maxwell.uwaterloo.ca (Eric Praetzel)
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 20:30:24 GMT

In article <1993Jan22.004211.28883@hpcvusn.cv.hp.com> harry@cv.hp.com (Harry Phinney) writes:
>.  Perhaps you are
>right, that it's their imagination.  Perhaps Jobst is right, that it's
>the sound the tires make.  Perhaps I'm right, that it's the sharpness of
>the break away.  What I'm saying is that I would be interested in

This is an interesting point.  Car tires are rated by their cornering force
vs slip angle (motion angle vs angle that the tire is pointing).  Some are
very sudden in their loss of traction (ie the cornering "power" drops off
like a cliff if you oversteer) while others are much more forgiving in their
breakaway characteristics.  But you have to add in what the suspension is
doing at the same time.  Perhaps this may exist with bicycle tires as well.
  Actually I do not advocate that it is purely imagination.  Audio clues
are the most likely explination for a lot of this; esp. where frames and
various frame materials are concerned.  Since it is highly unlikey that
anyone is going to feel a 50 kHz frame damping frequency they may hear a
sub harmonic vibrating some part of the bike.
  - Eric 
// "He blew his mind out in a car; he didn't notice the light had changed."
From: mike@scimitar.cchem.berkeley.edu (C. Michael McCallum)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: Collegiate Cycling - Qualifying for Nationals
Date: 27 Jan 1993 16:53:51 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: scimitar.cchem.berkeley.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

97994779@wsuvm1.csc.wsu.edu wrote:
: I think that is somewhat true, but at least they will be limited to
: five riders and not 15 on 5.

To defend Baird here a bit, in the WCCC, this would never happen.
Like I said earlier, there is a team limit of 10 riders per race.

: I am not saying eliminate lower cats, but why place so much emphasis on them
:when it is not neccessary. In football players often wait 3 of their five years
: before they ever start a game. And hey we still have more football players
: every year. Why not treat B,C,D cats as JV Cycling. A development program.
: If you place participation as a prereq for A team racing they will show!

Isnt' this already how it usually works?  I have very rarely seen (if ever)
even in psycling-thick CA, a first-year rider come on and ride A's.  
: >
: >Women's points do not count less than men's, but their races score
: >less points because of the fewer numbers of riders.  I, for one, would
: >be happy to have parity between the sexes, especially in the Nationals
: >scoring, but then we would have more men whining that it wasn't fair
: >because they couldn't find women to compete on their squad and were
: >disadvantaged because of it. (and let's be a little less ridiculous
: >with our parenthetical remarks)
: >
:  
: So, you are saying that when a man wins a race and gets 22 points and a
: wins a race on the same course and gets 10 points, we are not placing
: less value on the woman racer. It looks like we are to me! (Anytime
: we place less value on the results achieved by person because they are
: of a differenet sex, race, gender orientation than the majority group
: we are just as guilty of bigotry, biase and stereotyping as any
: slave owner.
 
REALLY?  A winning RR man gets 22 pts, but a winning RR woman gets 10 pts?
Doesn't your conference discuss these things?
OK here are points for each event in our conference.  I understand that
this is not a global Collegiate thing. These may be a bit off 'cuz I
think we changed them a tad this past year.

M A(RR): 39,34,31,28,26,24,22,20,18,16,14,13,12,11,10,9,8,7,5,3 (20)
W A(RR): 35,29,25,22,19,16,14,12,10,8,6,4  (12 places -- I think is more now)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: 97994779@wsuvm1.csc.wsu.edu
Subject: Re: Collegiate Problems
Organization: SYSTEMS & COMPUTING
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 93 22:18:21 PST

In article <93020.211201DCC112@psuvm.psu.edu>
dave chadwick <DCC112@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
 
>first: sorry that I do not quote anything but I have not figured that out yet.
>
>I agree with Dave G. about having the different campuses of schools race as
>seperate entities. Being from one of these different campuses, I feel that we
>should be able to represent ourselves. I attend Penn State Erie, The Behrend
>College, or Penn State-Behrend. I do not attend the University Park campus so
>why should I want to race for them? Sure maybe this will make things harder for
>me since I am the only A category racer on our team. I have to race alone with
>no team support. More power to me.
>But we are seperate from the other campuses, I will not count on a rider from
>Penn State- University Park to give me support any more than I would a rider
>from M.I.T. or Cornell.
>
>And that's all I have to say about it.
>
>Dave Chadwick
>President, Penn State-Behrend Cycling Club
>dcc112@psuvm.psu.edu
 
I would like to clearify myself on this issue. I personally have a position
on this other than to point out it maybe impossible at SOME schools to
be a club sprt affiliated with the branch campus. Most branch campuses do not
offer the full services that are offered at the main campus and the Univ
might not allow it. In that regard, I am not too sure if this is an area the
NCCA has jurisdiction in. It is up to the school to allow the team to exist
and to use the name of the University.
 
--
Patrick David Walters                     President WSU Cycling Club
97994779@wsuvm1.csc.wsu.edu                Race Dircetor WSU Stage Race
Undergrad Soc Minor in Fren and Bus         Send Mail for more info on
Washington State University   Pullman, WA   either !
From: mprime@titanium.Berkeley.EDU (Michael B. Prime)
Subject: Re: USCF/Collegiate Upgrades
Organization: University of California at Berkeley
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 19:08:57 GMT

> 
>>PWRIGHT@MIAMIU.BITNET wrote:
>>: In the post by MPRIME@TITAIUM:
>>:  <....USCF UPGRADES:.....I moved that they [collegiate races] should count >
>>:  <for any upgrade if the collegiate race satisfied all the requirements... >
>>: Does this mean Collegiate races should be open to EVERYONE including those
>>: of us who are no longer in school and are therefore not allowed to race in
>>: collegiate events??
>>
>>
>>No, no, no.
>>Just that the collegiate races need to satisfy field minima requirements
>>and that sort of thing.  Like min 60 riders for 4 --> 3 points, (or what-
>>ever.).
>>
>>--Mike
> 
>I was under the impression that collegiate races would only be significant in
>upgrades based on experience. NOT for points upgrades. I am wrong in thinking
>that?
> 
Let me clear this up. Currently collegiate racing can be used for
experience-based upgrades only. The NCCA is trying to get it allowed for
placing upgrades when the races meet all necessary qualifications,
including a minimum # of riders of a ceratain USCF category.

The first poster expressing a problem with this idea beacause he could not
do a collegiate race (e.g they are not open race) so it was unfair to
use these for upgrades since it would give some an advantage. Come on. Is
getting (or not) your upgrade that big a deal that you want to deny others?
What about all the USCF riders that complain that "those damn guys who've
been riding collegiates shouldn't be in our 4's race." If they are good
enough let them upgrade.

Mike

Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: stek@amazon.pfc.mit.edu
Subject: RE: NCCA - Let's Fix It
Organization: MIT PLASMA FUSION CENTER
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 22:06:30 GMT

I was going to reply to Marquis Roger, but our team's
writer-in-residence just did a far better job than I could.
Thanks Rich!

Paul Stek
MIT Cycling
Stek@pfc.mit.edu
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: tomk@netcom.com (Thomas H. Kunich)
Subject: Re: Team Motorola will Race on Clinchers in 1993
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 03:52:15 GMT

In article <1jl125INNqrg@ome.sps.mot.com> mack@risc.sps.mot.com (Gregg Mack) writes:
>I've been off the internet for nearly a month, but I've been following this
>thread for weeks now.  Now that I'm back :-), I'd just like to say that my
>employer appreciates the fact that it's name has been on tens of subject
>lines, and NOBODY seemed to badmouth them. ;-)

I worked on B-52's for 4 years in the Air Force. When I got out I 
worked on commercial airline avionics. Motorola was the best there was
and if they had had priced themselves even close to the competition
they would have owned the market lock, stock and barrel.

It looks like the same thing with the cellular phone business. But what do
I know? Motorola has been doing a fine job all along.

Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: f0471913@jaguar.csc.wsu.edu
Subject: Re: NCCA board meeting summary
Organization: Washington State University
Distribution: na
Date: 21 Jan 93 22:03:41 -0800

Dear Mike,

Thanks for the NCCA meeting summary, it was much appreciated. It was also very
encouraging to hear of the news about voting for board reps and collegiate MTB
nationals. On that note I was wondering if a collegiate cyclocross national
championships will be held in '93. I noticed that the USCF 'cross nationals
last year included a collegiate district championships. If there's going to be 
a collegiate category at all, why not sanction it as nationals?

Thanks again,
Dave

David Lawson
Dept. of Biochemistry and Biophysics
Washington State University
Pullman, WA  99163-4660
f0471913@jaguar.csc.wsu.edu
From: sjk@strl.labs.tek.com (Steven King)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: Observations from the TEAM Motorola Pre-season Training Camp
Date: 28 Jan 93 17:14:42 GMT
Reply-To: sjk@strl.labs.tek.com (Steven King)
Followup-To: rec.bicycles.racing
Organization: Software Technology Research Lab, Tektronix, Inc.

In article <lmbj44INNp60@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM>, bhilden@bigriver.Eng.Sun.COM (Bruce Hildenbrand) writes:

|> I made my yearly pilgrimage to Team Motorola's pre-season training
|> camp, here are some observations, thoughts, etc.

[Lots of great information, deleted]

All well and good.  But can Greg Lemond keep up with them on the descents?

:^) :^) :^) :^)  <--- For the humor challenged bike nerds

Steven (sjk@strl.labs.tek.com)

"Sometimes if you have a cappuccino and then try again it will work OK."
(Dr. Brian Reid)  "Sometimes one cappuccino isn't enough." (Marcus Ranum)
"A double vanilla latte always works."  (Me)
From: mike@scimitar.cchem.berkeley.edu (C. Michael McCallum)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Re: NCCA - Let's Fix It
Date: 26 Jan 1993 16:48:37 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: scimitar.cchem.berkeley.edu
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

97994779@wsuvm1.csc.wsu.edu wrote:
: I don't know where you go, but Alpine and nordic are seperate as far as I
: know at WSU. As for men's and women's being combined, Skiing is more of an
: individualistic sport. 

Again, I don't know what your point is, other than you feel that
cycling is a team sport, and your definition of team seems to 
end at each classification.

Brushing off someone's statement with an "I don't know where you go..."
misses the point.  I think the point here is Collegiate cycling is 
somewhat unique in that the *whole* team contributes to a win.
So what?  It helps breed comaraderie for the whole team, from the
best A rider to the women's B rider.  This is a good thing, as far
as I am concerned.  Your mileage may differ, but we like it.  If you
don't, change it in your conference.  That is your right.

--Mike

Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: 97994779@wsuvm1.csc.wsu.edu
Subject: Re: NCCA - Let's Fix It
Organization: SYSTEMS & COMPUTING
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 93 22:22:45 PST

In article <1993Jan21.051042.19242@netcom.com>
marquis@netcom.com (Roger Marquis) writes:
 
>
>Good luck Pat and Mike.  I argued this one from the early collegiate
>days ('83) until I (finally) graduated in '90 without success.
>Originally we thought that Stanford and Tim Nicholson (one of the
>founding fathers of collegiate cycling) wanted women's races to count
>towards an overall champoinships because they were always able to
>field a strong womens team.  Lately there has not been much said about
>the subject.  I suspect that you might make some headway if you can
>form a coalition from those who have been burned by not having
>strong womens teams (virtually everyone).  The lack of depth in
>collegiate womens fields doesn't warrant the large relative number
>of points allocated to the category.
>
>Ideally of course, there would be equal competition from both men's
>and women's ranks.  Sadly, despite the best efforts of most all of us,
>this has not proved possible.  Why perpetuate this unfairness to the
>collegiate championships?
>
>Roger Marquis
 
Roger, I think that the issue is here, no ever asked us! In our conference we
are on the verge of declaring we will send different men's and women's teams.
We feel it is everyone's best interest. Not just schools with strong men's
teams, but schools with string women's teams also. I think that point
is lost here. People assume that I am only interested in how men are affected
by this issue. Again I ask you to look at the University of Washington.
Get in touch with Bobby there. She is vehement about the fact that the
women's team at UW was the best or 2nd best and should have gone to Nats, but
their men held them back.
 
I think there are a lot of people who feel this way. In the USCF we are given
the right to vote. Why are we not given or haven't been given as of yet.
the right to vote in the NCCA? We vote on all issues in the NWCCC at the first
race of the season. It works very well. Kast year they even voted on the eve of
the WSU RR to seperate the A and B fields. We had to get two more cars to
work the race that night!!
 
I hold my view on this matter, but what I really want is the ability for
"We the students" to have a say in mass about it. Not letting someone who
can afford to fly to CO for the meetings. (No offense Mike to you personally
just the idea that to serve you have to be financially able.)
 
--
Patrick David Walters                     President WSU Cycling Club
97994779@wsuvm1.csc.wsu.edu                Race Dircetor WSU Stage Race
Undergrad Soc Minor in Fren and Bus         Send Mail for more info on
Washington State University   Pullman, WA   either !
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: Pointerm@duvm.ocs.drexel.edu (Richard Pointer)
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
Subject: Wanted: Info on TREK OCLV Composite Frames (5200,5500,5900)
Date: 27 Jan 93 19:44:41 GMT
Organization: Drexel University (Composite Mechanics Lab)
X-Xxmessage-Id: <A78C5E96370114E6@n1-20-230-hess-lab.coe.drexel.edu>
X-Xxdate: Wed, 27 Jan 93 15:45:26 GMT
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d12

Wanted : Information on the new TREK OCLV Framesets
From : Richard Pointer


   I'm thinking about purchasing one of the new TREK OCLV framesets. I
can get a pretty good deal on one. I'd like to know if anyone has one and
how they like it. I've been riding an SLX Merckx for the last 6 years and
other steel frames before that, so I'm pretty comfortable with steel. I'm
especially interested in the advantages and disadvantages that people
have noticed between the different frames (composite vs. steel).  Any
comments would be appreciated, be it about the TREK or any other
composite frameset. 
   Also, if anyone has a copy of April, 1992 Bicycling Magazine with the
article comparing the TREK with the Kestral, I would be very interested
in getting hold of a copy.
     
Thanks much.... Rich
Richard Pointer
POINTERM@DUVM.OCS.DREXEL.EDU
Department of Mechanical Engineering
Drexel University, Philadelphia, PA 19104
--------------------------------------------------
     "Sometimes being a graduate student is NO FUN!!!"
--------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing
From: 97994779@wsuvm1.csc.wsu.edu
Subject: Re: Collegiate Cycling - Qualifying for Nationals
Organization: SYSTEMS & COMPUTING
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 93 22:12:45 PST

In article <1993Jan21.023856.3397@leland.Stanford.EDU>
polly@grover.Stanford.EDU (Polly Siegel) writes:
 
>
>> In article <1993Jan19.212425.27855@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>
>> ... Men and women do not race together so why should they effect the
>> ability for one team to go to nationals or not?
>
>By that token, why should there be different categories for men or women
>then?  They don't race together either, yet it's the sum of the points in
>the categories that affect who goes to Nationals.
>
 
So, by the same token, you would allow me to shoe up with 30 B riders and glut
the field? Hey you can get 30 too!! In the NWCCC the B riders to not impact
the qualification for nationals.
 
>> ... I think the ultimate goal of
>> cycling would be to become a NCAA sport and as it stands now, that is an
>> impossibility.
>
>I completely disagree with this.  One of the great things about collegiate
>cycling is that athletes of different caliber and different sex can
>compete on the same team and feel like they're contributing to the team
>success.  Additionally, sanctioning the sport as an NCAA sport would take
>away the participation of graduate students.  I don't know about your
>team, but a large percentage of our team is composed of graduate students.
>I think making the sport an NCAA sport would increase whatever elitism
>already exists in the sport.
 
I think what I mean here, and maybe I am confusing my self is a VARSITY sport.
I will take back the comment about NCAA. I mean a VARSITY sport. I would love t
o be racing on a scholarship right now. It would be great to have blocked free
time right sin my scheduling of classes. I would love to get everything for
free. But no, let's leave ourselves in the club sport realm.
 
--
Patrick David Walters                     President WSU Cycling Club
97994779@wsuvm1.csc.wsu.edu                Race Dircetor WSU Stage Race
Undergrad Soc Minor in Fren and Bus         Send Mail for more info on
Washington State University   Pullman, WA   either !
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.racing