From: hillyard@msc.cornell.edu
Subject: Re: Prop 48...
Originator: hillyard@tiger.msc.cornell.edu
Reply-To: hillyard@msc.cornell.edu
Organization: Cornell-Materials-Science-Center
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1992 21:34:54 GMT

From article <19585@optima.cs.arizona.edu>, by gln@cs.arizona.edu (Gary L. Newell):
> In article <1992Jul25.082913.7452@u.washington.edu>, dasaxe@milton.u.washington.edu (Daniel Perreault) writes:
>> Now let's get a grip here GaRy, I don't believe the original writer in any
>> way implied that there are no cultural biases, in fact I believe he said
>> "People have advantages and disadvantages whereever they come from..." In
> 
>  Which is bullshit. The fact is, some of us simply do not suffer the same
> level of cultural bias as others do...
> 
>> otherwords, that some people have advantages(pick an ethnic majority) and
>> some people have disadvantages(pick an ethnic minority).
> 
>  Again - bullshit. This is easy for someone who falls into the
> majority to claim. The reality is that there are many individuals who
> have much greater disadvantages than you and I and most readers of this group.

All right Gary, you've annoited yourself the net expert of the SAT and
cultural bias, explain to us how an inner city youth, or a hillbilly from 
Appalachia can expect to score when compared to someone from the suburb.  
How about from Korea, that seems to be a help the test taker.

The main cultural bias I see is how seriously education is taken within it--
Jews and Koreans take it very seriously, and thus do well, even better than
Joe Smoe from the suburb.  Others don't, and do worse.  Note the words
main Gary, I think their are other factors, but they are insignificant 
compared to this.

But I admit freely to being ignorant of the subject, care to educate instead
of flame.

> 
>> However, we are not talking about brain surgery here GaRy, I assume you took
>> the SAT at some point in your educational career, getting a 700 total score
>> is a pretty minimal task. You may try to argue that the people taking the
>> test, say first generation asians, have a disadvantage because they don't
>> read english well, but the test can be administered in several languages,
>> and besides like it or not statistically the people that are getting nailed
>> here are predominantly black, and I suspect few of them are not native
                                               ^^^
>> english speakers.
> 
>  Plase give me this again - most are black and most are not native english
> speakers? Is that what you said? If so, take a look at the avg. SAT scores for
> say the past 20 years or so... it really is unclear to me what your point is
> here....

Note the few Gary.

His point is that a severe disadvantage would be to not be a native English
speaker.  Yet those who are failing to get 700 do not have this problem.

> 
>  I love this - the bottom line for you folks is " anyone could do it" but
> the reality of it is "anyone like *me* could do it so they must be lesser than
> I am" - I think it is you who should get a grip and realize that there are

No, the bottom line for me is anybody born and raised in the US who takes his 
education and the test seriously can score a 700.  Convince me it isn't true.

>> But lets go back to the test GaRy, lets look at the verbal section for a
>> minute. Even those people who contend the test is biased argue that the
>> questions that are so are primarily ones involving reading conprehension and
>> interpretation. That leaves several sections on simple vocabulary that are
>> not significantly biased. Certainly not enough to keep someone from getting
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
>  Tell me what do you base this on other than your own impressions? Anything?
> Anything at all?

No, tell us Gary, you're the expert.

>> Besides GaRy, those experts who claim the tests are biased do not contend
>> that the injured party is at such a disadvantage that they cannot get a
>> 700
>  
> Really? What do they say - please tell me - I'd appreciate the references
> if possible...

You want references, yet haven't supplied any yourself, or even stated your
case in a way to convince anybody.

> 
>>So what is the problem? Is it the myriad people who pander to these athletically
>> gifted youth in junior high and convince them the only place they need to work
>> is on the court? Or the teachers and systems that let them get as far as
>> high school graduation without the ability to get 700 on an SAT? Or idiots
>> on computers who tell them that they are being racially discriminated against
>> by a test so it isn't fair and thus they don't have to do shit?
> 
> 
> The racism in the above is so blatent that I need not respond. Give Rush
>Limbaugh a call and maybe he'll agree with you.... that's right the problem
>with blacks is thaqt we tell *them* that they have things tough and so
>they don't need to do "shit"...

Let's see.  'Gifted athlete told he doesn't have to work.'  Could apply to
any athlete, and the title of this thread, 'prop 48', applies specifically to 
athletes scores, does it not.  So point out the racism to me.

'Teachers and systems that let them graduate without being able to get a very 
minimal score on the SAT.'  Point it out in this statement also.

'Idiots on a computer telling them they are being racially discriminated
against, so don't bother worrying about the test.'  Well, this seems to sum 
up you're position.  So explain where this is racist also.

>  Because I've lived it. I came from the inner city - I went to school
> with African-americans, hispanics and was in fact a minority in my
> inner-city high-school. I did well on my exams but it had little to do with
> my real-life experience and had much more to do with my family and
> their views of what was the "norm" and acceptable. Beyond that, I've had
> too many years of Sociology and Higher Education courses - many of which
> looked at *scientific* studies of this issue and came to the conclusion that
> tests such as the SAT are biased in terms of culture (perhaps not the intention
> but biased none the less)....
> 
> 			gln

Perhaps you're family took education more seriously than the others.  

That's my opinion on what the main cultural bias of the SAT is, and frankly
its one I can live with.  

Convince me I'm incorrect.

SEH