From: slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com (Mark Slagle)
Newsgroups: ca.politics,soc.culture.asian.american,soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: 1 white male among new San Jose firemen of 22
Date: 22 Jul 92 05:42:26 GMT
	<Tg05NB3w164w@netlink.cts.com>
Reply-To: slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com
Organization: Lockheed Missiles and Space Co., Sunnyvale, Ca.
In-reply-to: galan@netlink.cts.com's message of 19 Jul 92 05:37:16 GMT

In article <Tg05NB3w164w@netlink.cts.com>, galan@netlink.cts.com (Greg Gross) writes:

>slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com (Mark Slagle) writes:

>> But if even that isn't sufficient for you, then I will try to
>> state it plainly.  Anyone, you or me or John or anyone else, who
>> advances the proposition that someone deserves some sort of
>> treatment, specifically pain in this case, because of their
>> skin color is a racist.  

> You're perfectly clear. Transparent, even. Also wrong.

Well, you haven't shown what you think is wrong about my
simple statement of principle.

> Having experienced 40 years worth of racism myself, I would not 
> casually wish it upon anyone else...not even you.

Whether you wish it upon me casually or earnestly does not
make much of a difference in the result.  Try to remember,
even if your target doesn't, that you are dealing with a
person, not an object.

> In other words, Mark, if those doing such harm to us could experience that 
> harm on the receiving end, maybe it would open their eyes...and even make 
> them stop.

Perhaps if you could simply, and calmly, point out the
fact of it, and the effect, it might be more effective.
Hate breeds hate.  No matter where it starts, we each
have a responsibility to break the chain of hate.

> Now there's a radical, racist concept for you, Mark.

It is not racist to express the wish to visit retribution on your
tormentors.  If you can manage to restrict the impact of your
attitudes and programs to those whom you can show have done you
harm, then I can have no objection in principle.  But you have
not usually been so selective in your targets.  You have thrown
your net over all "whites" in past postings.

Secondly, your proposed retribution is still a bad idea on
pragmatic grounds.  Racism is fundamentally an attempt to
objectify a group of people on irrelevant grounds.  It is hard 
to see how your policy of retribution can have the effect of
convincing offenders of the error of their ways, if that is
indeed your goal.  Since your target is still an abstract 
group of "racists", your attitude shares the same attribute 
of objectification with your enemies.

Also, by analogy, it is hard to see how shouting in the face of
those who shout in yours will somehow cause them to lower their
voices.  On the contrary, it would seem designed to escalate the
volume level.

> As for the cheap insults, my apologies. Maybe if I shop at better stores...

Cheap insults can be bought at stores in all neighborhoods.
I would hope that we two can keep the volume down below screaming.
For my part, I will try to express my opinions in moderate tones.  
But remember that I am a person, too.  If you attack me personally, 
or if you attack me on the basis of my presumed membership in some
class or group, then I may be tempted to respond in kind.  Just as
you are tempted to do so in response to racism, so will your targets
respond in kind to what they see as an attack.  Maybe we should all
resist the temptation?
--
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Mark E. Slagle                                 PO Box 61059
slagle@lmsc.lockheed.com                       Sunnyvale, CA   94088
408-756-0895                                   USA