HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: ro@panix.com (r l reid)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Congratulating (het) parents on their new baby
Date: 28 Dec 92 21:48:58 GMT
Organization: Middlesex Gender Modifiers

In article <jhansen.725055218@convex.convex.com> jhansen@convex.com (James Hansen) writes:
>In <1992Dec22.175228.14662@midway.uchicago.edu> elle@kimbark.uchicago.edu (Ellen Keyne Seebacher) writes:
>
>I am entitled to my opinion.  I don't care for children and don't care to
>ever have any.  I don't like reading birth announcements either.

Oh ghod yes.  But the ones that REALLY boil my blood are the ones
who use public bulletin boards to anounce a '72 Chevy for sale,
low miles.

It must be one of those guy things I never caught on to?  But what
about when women do it? Is this like to prove something?

-- 
		r l reid	ro@panix.com
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: tdbear@dvorak.amd.com (Thomas D. Barrett)
Subject: Re: Austin, TX joins Colo. Boycott
Organization: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.; Austin, Texas
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 93 12:27:51 GMT

In article <1993Jan2.020940.548@wixer.cactus.org> lazarus@wixer.cactus.org (Michael Lax) writes:
>know that Fort Worth refused to pass it, thanks in part to the efforts of
>American Family Assoc. 

Write to the mayor again and let him know that negative attitudes
towards gays and lesbians are in part responsible for over 1,300
teen and young adult suicides each year, and that 250,000 to 500,000
gay youths are thrown out of their traditional family home or feel
that they have to escape its abuse each year.  Point out that the
Catholic Church says that one should not discriminate against the
homosexual.  Point out that most of the other (liberal) churches
recognize that the homosexual union is just as loving and caring and
fullfilling as the heterosexual ones.

If the mayor still refuses to reply AND (big AND) if you or someone is
brave enough, confront him at the city council meeting... or at least
make a phone appointment or in-person appointment to talk to him.  If
he still is not accessible at your level of comfort, then write a
letter to the editor.

-- 
|Tom Barrett (TDBear), Sr. Engineer|tom.barrett@amd.com|v:512-462-6856 |
|AMD PCD MS-520 | 5900 E. Ben White|Austin, TX  78741  |f:512-462-5155 |
|"No is yes, And we're all free"   |CO made a #2 no-no... PU!          |
|My views are my own and may not be the same as the company of origin  |
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: mara@panix.com (Mara Chibnik)
Subject: Re: Soc.Motss.* (was Re: new newsgroup proposal:talk.politics.motss)
Organization: (getting there)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 13:50:39 GMT

nigel@stonewall.demon.co.uk (Nigel Whitfield) writes:

 >Or how about (a late night brainwave here (!?!?))
 >soc.lesbigay.resources

Most excellent.

-- 

  Mara Chibnik
  mara@panix.com                Life is too important to be taken seriously.
From: olw7845@rigel.tamu.edu (Zeke E. Pez)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: accidental cross posts- AN APOLOGEE from ZEKE
Date: 23 Dec 1992 15:40 CST
Organization: Texas A&M University, Academic Computing Services
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: rigel.tamu.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    

Is has come to my knowledge that some accidental cross posting
has been sent to this group from alt.politics.homosexuality with
respect to a particular thread.

I have learned how the error is started and I know now how to correct them.

Please excuse my temporary ignorance with respect to this problem.

Thanks,

ZEKE
olw7845@venus.tamu.edu

Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: mara@panix.com (Mara Chibnik)
Subject: Re: Private antidiscrimination policies in CO (was Re: Attention...)
Organization: (getting there)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 13:49:33 GMT




anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) writes:
   >>> You *have* heard of enmity arising from homophobia, yes?
smithw@col.hp.com (Walter Smith) writes:
  >>Well, I've never personally seen it in action, but I'll take 
  >>your word for it.  
rogerk@queernet.org (Roger B.A. Klorese) writes:
 >Then you've never heard a fag joke, I take it?  Or perhaps you've 
 >never worked with anyone whose company-blessed marriage, complete 
 >with prerequisite non-working wifey, helped grease his way up the
 >sales/marketing ladder?

I'm willing to be that the hitch is "homophobia."  That is, Walter
will have been aware, on some level, that people say unpleasant
things about glb* folk, and might not want their kids to grow up
thinking that there are "real" families, worthy of all the
"values" talk, where the parents are gay.  He knows that the armed
forces are still prepared to kick glb* folk out.  But he isn't
really sure that this should be called "homophobia."

Maybe he'd argue that it's not fear to dislike people.  I suppose we
could answer that by probing what, in the psyche, underlies the
dislike.  I'm not specifically attributing this kind of argument to
Walter, but I've seen a lot of people raise this issue.  They say it
has nothing to do with fear, and therefore it isn't a phobia.  (I've
seen glb* folk make this point.)

I don't really care what label you put on anti-glb* bigotry; I find
homophobia to be adequate shorthand but I'd be willing to change my
vocabulary if I had some combination of a good reason to do so and a
better word offered.  In the meantime, I know at least two people
that I met through motss who went through lawsuits (successful!)
based on denial of security clearance for being gay.  I've read news
reports of a judge who gave a minimum sentence to a murderer because
the victims were "just faggots."  I have friends who have not been
forbidden to visit dying lovers by the lovers' families (when, if
they'd been straight, they'd have been married and therefore "next
of kin").  I've seen innocent picture books for children described
in terms suitable for pornography by people pretending to give an
objective story.  I've heard lies (like "special rights") repeated
by people who should know better.  I've read a story about an angry
letter to a newspaper editor from someone with the same name as the
writer of an article about being gay, complaining that he'd received
the hate mail and phone calls intended for the gay writer.

Now, I don't care whether you call this "homophobia" or something
else.  But I do care that it be recognized as part and parcel of
anti-glb* bigotry, and understood as such.

-- 

  Mara Chibnik
  mara@panix.com                Life is too important to be taken seriously.

Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay)
Subject: Re: Apples and oranges (was Re: Why not cure homosexuality?)
Organization: Free Faerie Front
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 23:13:35 GMT

In article <NNBRwB4w164w@cellar.org> rica@cellar.org (Rica Fredrickson) writes:
>solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay) writes:
>> learning how to *change* the situation. Gender reassignment is
>> still imperfect at best, but we're learning more all the time.
>> 
>> In a hundred years, it may be the same for homosexuality (and, of
>> course, heterosexuality). People who feel uncomfortable about
>> their orientation might be able to change it at will. For that
>> matter, they may be able to change their left-or-right
>
>Mmm, I think you're comparing apples and oranges.  Changing sexual
>orientation would be more analogous to changing the underlying
>psychological gender identity.  Gender reassignment doesn't do that;
>the premise is to help a person be comfortable with the gender
>identity they already have, and when the HBIGDA standard of care is
>followed it seems to do that pretty well, judging from people in
>my circle of friends who've been through it.

Well, it was just an analogy. (The fun thing about analogies is
that they let you compare apples and origins.) My point was that
there is no value judgement attached to being male or female, but
some people (for whatever reason) are unhappy with the sex they
start with, so they're able to change. Similarly, one can discuss
changing a sexual orientation without attaching judgement to it.
(And when we discuss it, the conclusion we reach is "It can't be
done (yet).")
-- 
Andrew Solovay    

"I is not now, nor has I ever been, a Human Bein'!"
                ---Pogo Possum
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: tdbear@dvorak.amd.com (Thomas D. Barrett)
Subject: Re: Austin, TX joins Colo. Boycott
Organization: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.; Austin, Texas
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 93 12:35:39 GMT

In article <1992Dec30.041841.13257@flood.com> tom@flood.com (Tom Chatt) writes:
>
>No. Atlanta, for one, does not. I heard the head of the Colorado
>Tourist Board (who has an obvious agenda here) complaining that
>it was awfully smug and hypocritical for Atlanta to be boycotting
>Colorado when Denver, Boulder, Aspen all had enacted anti-
>discrimination ordnances while Atlanta never has.

What I find smug and hypocritical is that the CO fundies (actually
Bush's guy in CO if I remember correctly) were complaining on the PBS
NewsHour that the boycott goes against democracy because it forces the
views of others around the country on to CO... THIS A@@ HAD THE NERVE
TO SAY THAT AND YET HE AND HIS A@@ FRIENDS FORCED THEIR VIEWS ON TO
DENVER, ASPEN, AND BOULDER!  Jeez... why can't they just let each city
pass its own laws and leave it at that.  The guy that they interviewed
from Bush Headquarters (forgot his name) was soooooo smug.  I really
feel sorry for anyone who has to come in to contact with people like
him... for they are the ones who get to share in the blood of over a
thousand teen suicides a year.

-- 
|Tom Barrett (TDBear), Sr. Engineer|tom.barrett@amd.com|v:512-462-6856 |
|AMD PCD MS-520 | 5900 E. Ben White|Austin, TX  78741  |f:512-462-5155 |
|"No is yes, And we're all free"   |CO made a #2 no-no... PU!          |
|My views are my own and may not be the same as the company of origin  |
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: mhr@hpuerca.atl.hp.com (Mike Reaser)
Subject: Re: Attention Skiers Boycotting Colorado
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 22:36:05 GMT
Organization: a stone mountain of Kudzu

In <1ht79qINN6dp@hp-col.col.hp.com> smithw@col.hp.com (Walter Smith) writes:

>mhr@hpuerca.atl.hp.com (Mike Reaser) writes:
>> >That is what I am saying.  I am NOT saying that gays DO want quotas, or 
>> >that quotas existed in the past; 
>> 
>> NOT!  You've said it repeatedly,

>OK, Mike.  Show me where I have.  Put up, or quit blubbering. 
                                                   ^^^^^^^^^^

I will as soon as I can get at some older posts.

And there's our word of the day again....

>> BBC put it best:  all the Equal Opportunity policies in world are useless
>> if the _law_ doesn't allow you to use them.  And that's what Amendment 2
>> does.

>You really think HP would fire you in violation of their own EE statement? 

It's possible.  In Georgia, I could seek relief in the court system.
In Colorado I could not.

Simply have an EE statement does _NOT_ guarantee it will not be violated.

>Walter

--
=======================================================================
 Mike Reaser, Hewlett-Packard N. Amer. Response Center - Atlanta
 Internet:  mhr@hpuerca.atl.hp.com
 NBCS: B5 f t w g+ k s              I barely speak for myself, so
 #include <standard.disclaimer>       don't make me speak for HP
=======================================================================
From: bcapps@agora.rain.com (Brent Capps)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: long-term relationships...success sto
Date: 31 Dec 92 08:43:50 GMT
Organization: Open Communications Forum

pmacay@xerox.com (Pete Macay) writes:
[a nice story and some very sensible advice]

Some of these rules we've also used; in addition we have another.
When one of us is out of town for business or whatever, the other
partner must have the house spic n' span upon his return.
-- 
Brent Capps                          |        
bcapps@agora.rain.com (gay stuff)    | 
bcapps@atlastele.com (telecom stuff) |
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: joe@spdcc.com (Joseph Francis)
Subject: Re: Wot! Language again?
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 12:14:47 GMT

In article <1992Dec23.125151.3619@nic.csu.net> hsu@walnut.sfsu.edu writes:
>Jojo:
>> Mecca (mek-ahhhhh): if anyone has ever been to Saudi Arabia (I have)
>> and passed people on their way to Mecca for the Haj (I have: and
>> furthermore, it is also Medina, and other holy sites) they could
>> understand that I can't imagine a stranger conjunction than a place of
>> ritualized public holy self-deprivation and silly-ceremoniousness
>> culminating in mass circulation around a curtain-draped cube being
>> compared to, say, Amsterdam friday night on the Warmoesstraat.
>
>But Jojo, couldn't you see the basement of the Argos as the backdrop for
>ritualized (semi)public holy (ok, we're stretching the term here) self-
>deprivation (and perhaps flagellation) and ceremonious, mass circulation
>around a bathtub with shower curtains removed, said circulators releasing
>various body fluids onto the dimly-lit sole inhabitant of said bathtub?
>
>Bill, silly around Christmas

And, in fact, I often have. There are not nearly as many beards as in
Mecca, and no white robes at all. Furthermore, no alcohol is allowed
in Saudi Arabia, while it is the lubricant of choice in most bars.
There are teleological concerns I won't (why isn't that word willn't,
or at least win't) go into. Suffice it to say that I have only fucked
around with one Saudi Arabian Prince in the Argos (story at 11) while
I have never fucked around with a Dutch leatherman in Jeddah. I didn't
think there was a bathtub in the ARGOS. There are several at The Boots
(which is the safest sex club I can remember going to ever) in Antwerp
(Anvers). My storyline is fragmenting too much. Too close to
Christmas, I get unnerved thinking about a visit by the white-bearded
plump gentleman tonight.


-- 
US Jojo; damp, slighly soiled, but tasty nonetheless.
From: tmg@maths.tcd.ie (Eamonn McManus)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Drooling over the "Europa" guy.
Date: 23 Dec 92 15:55:32 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Maths, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland.

daniel@nstn.ns.ca (Daniel MacKay) writes:
>>>Sigh.  ObMotss: there is no motss content in this film execpt for some
>>>very handsome guys.

and then:
>OK.  I have this confusion cleared up.  I didn't *see* Europa- I checked
>with the rep theatre that I didn't see it at.  I saw "Europa, Europa",
>which was known in the States as "Zentropa."  Sigh.  

...in which case one of the very handsome guys in question is
Jean-Marc Barr, who is even more heart-rendingly beautiful in "Le
Grand Bleu" (The Big Blue), an otherwise almost completely
uninteresting film.

,
Eamonn, in Ireland for the nonce
-- 
Eamonn McManus		emcmanus@cs.tcd.ie 	...!mcsun!cs.tcd.ie!emcmanus
	  One of the 0% of Americans who are not Americans.
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: buckmr@rpi.edu (Ron Buckmire)
Subject: GALLO found *GUILTY* of scientific misconduct
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1993 19:21:36 EST
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------- Blind-Carbon-Copy

To: aids@cs.ucla.edu
cc: act-up@world.std.com, noglstp@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov
Subject: GALLO found *GUILTY* of scientific misconduct
Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1993 19:21:36 EST
From: Ron Buckmire <buckmr>


 
	WASHINGTON -- The U.S. scientist credited with discovering the AIDS
virus and a colleague committed scientific misconduct by publishing
false and misleading statements in scientific papers describing their
groundbreaking work, a government investigation released Wednesday
charged. Based on the conclusion, the report from the Public Health
Service's Office of Research Integrity recommended that Dr. Robert Gallo
and his colleague, Dr. Mikulas Popovic, be supervised for three years to
ensure the accuracy of their work.
 
   
- ---
RON BUCKMIRE, 11 Colvin Circle, Troy, NY 12180-3735. `D.C. in 93!''
uunet!rpi.edu!buckmr||buckmr@rpitsmts.bitnet||buckmr@rpi.edu||+1 518 276 8910
"Making love and music are the only things worth fighting for..." - Prince.

------- End of Blind-Carbon-Copy
From: smithw@col.hp.com (Walter Smith)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Private antidiscrimination policies in CO (was Re:
Date: 31 Dec 1992 17:48:16 GMT
Organization: Colorado Springs IT Center
NNTP-Posting-Host: fajita19.cs.itc.hp.com

Charlie Fulton <charlie@isis.mit.edu> writes:
> In article <1hv70lINN69f@hp-col.col.hp.com> Walter Smith,
> smithw@col.hp.com writes:
> >I don't think that would work, unless your job evaluations showed you 
> >really *were* a bad employee.  And WHY would a company fire a good 
> >employee *just* because he is gay?  
> >
> 
> I'm not sure, but I think the management of "Cracker Barrel"
> could answer your question.

Yeah, there are going to be some idiots.  (come on, come on, 
quite giggling..)   But do 'normal' companies do this? 
A few people have mentioned some other examples, one was 
here at HP, and one was at some hospital.  Can anyone give 
more details on this?  Please save the flames that I'm denying
it exists; it doesn't help anyone understand...

Walter
From: scott@bbx.basis.com (Scott Amspoker)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Miracle cure for homophobic states
Date: 31 Dec 92 07:31:23 GMT
Organization: BASIS International, Ltd., Albuquerque NM USA

In article <1hteuoINN9em@hp-col.col.hp.com> smithw@col.hp.com (Walter Smith) writes:
>d000dlphi@leo.bsuvc.bsu.edu (David Speakman) writes:
>> We now enter another dream scenario sponsored by David Speakman...
>> 
>> On Jan 21, President Clinton signs an omnibus executive order outlawing
>> discrimination against the lesbigay community in all federal employment and
>> withholds federal funding from all states, municipalities and other local
>> governments with ant-gay rights laws.
>> 
>> _____________End dream secquence_______________
>
>You know, that may not be a bad idea...there might be legality 
>problems with the funding thing

As far as I know - no legality problem.  Wasn't there a Supreme Court
ruling on this a few years back?  The Feds are free to distribute
and withhold money for any reason they want.  This has recently been
demonstrated with mandated drug testing of government contractors
and abortion counseling gag order.  Other examples include seatbelt
laws and the drinking age in each state.  That's why they're trying
to make the whole country dependent on federal money - no need to
answer to the Constitution.

-- 
Scott Amspoker                       |    
Basis International, Albuquerque, NM |  Too bad ignorance isn't really
                                     |  bliss.  Then it could be outlawed.
scott@bbx.basis.com                  |
Xref: sparky soc.motss:53918 soc.bi:17360
From: tal@Warren.MENTORG.COM (Tom Limoncelli)
Newsgroups: soc.motss,soc.bi
Subject: QW Magazine: Still in business?
Date: 28 Dec 1992 23:03:26 -0500
Organization: Mentor Graphics -- IC Group
NNTP-Posting-Host: sdl.warren.mentorg.com

Is QW (Qweer Weekly, used to be NYQ) magazine out of business?  One
week they announced that their publisher had died of AIDS and that they
would not go out of business due to that.  However, I haven't gotten a
new issue in the mail since.

Anyone have more info?

Tom
-- 
Tom Limoncelli -- tal@warren.mentorg.com (work) -- tal@plts.uucp (play)

Unix is a trademark of, WHATT????
From: adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Small grooming question
Date: 28 Dec 1992 19:39:13 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: mizar.usc.edu

In article <1992Dec29.011524.23560@netcom.com> 
foucault@netcom.com (Howard Arthur Faye) writes:
> In article <1992Dec28.182753.5383@spdcc.com> 
> dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer) writes:
> >In article <1hnconINN62i@im4u.cs.utexas.edu>
> >osborn@cs.utexas.edu (John Howard Osborn) writes:
> >>My lover and I like it when I keep my head shaved smooth, but the
> >>mechanics are kinda tough. [ ... ]
> 
> >Have you tried using an Epilady?  (Ow, ow, ow, ow...)
>
> Well, actually, a Wahl razor works very well as long as you find
> someone to do the honors. [ ... ]

But that's no fun!  I think Steve's suggestion is
delightful, but if what you want is a bowling ball
smooth head, why not think of waxing it?

Arne
From: adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Dworkin (was Re: Liberty)
Date: 22 Dec 1992 13:21:17 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: mizar.usc.edu

Ick.  Remember that I'm talking about Dworkin and not
feminists in general or feminism as a whole.

In article <1992Dec22.172912.2724@tc.cornell.edu> 
shore@dinah.tc.cornell.edu (Melinda Shore) writes:

> And how do you think she arrived at her conclusions?  Andrea
> Dworkin writes that all heterosexual sex is rape because ...
> Because what?  What are the arguments she presents (without
> an ad hominem attack, if you please)?

Dworkin's fundamental error is to have taken the rage
she feels at the very real power imbalances between 
men and women and used that rage to attack men on the
basis on sex itself.  When a woman is penetrated by
a man, according to Dworkin, she's being "invaded" and
"enslaved".  Women who might enjoy penetration are 
delusional -- or, to use Dworkin's word, "collaborators".
Her rhetoric would be dismissable as absurd were it
not for the fact that it's offensive.  Offensive to
men since she claims we're all rapists bent on wiping
women off the face of the earth.  (She writes quite
baldly in _Intercourse_ that penile-vaginal intercourse
is *genocidal*.)  Offensive to women, because she
claims that no woman can *really* enjoy sex with a
man who's bent on penetrating her body.  And really,
what is her problem with human biology?  And, need I
point out, her equating men with Nazis and women
with Jews in Auschwitz is *deeply* offensive to anyone
with even a half-developed sense of morality.

> A thing I like about Andrea Dworkin is that she pisses off
> men so thoroughly.  Men (notably straight white men) are so
> rarely the object of complete dehumanization.  

She manages to dehumanize women at the same time, so I
don't think this is a laudable accomplishment.

> I don't think
> that turnabout is fair play, but I do feel that reading
> Dworkin could lead more men to the "Aha!" experience.

I doubt this very much.

> Mind
> you, all too many who do read Dworkin don't think about
> it beyond being simply outraged, but maybe some encouragement
> to consider why they're so angry at Andrea Dworkin could
> result in a better understanding of what it is to be a
> woman or minority in this culture, and how it might feel
> to live as the object of this kind of hate, day in and day
> out.  

Melinda, I *am* a minority in this culture.  I don't think
a week has passed since I was about 13 when I haven't been
called "a cocksucking faggot" or whatever on the street.
Occasionally (every 6 months or so, perhaps), people will
throw things at me from passing cars.  I've been menaced
on the street more times than I can count.  I know what it's 
like to live as the object of that kind of hate, day in and 
day out.  Dworkin does not help me understand how my
experience with this kind of mindless hatred might parallel
a woman's.  Add to that the fact that she's expressed 
homophobic sentiments, too, and I can only repeat that
I think she has nothing valuable to say.

Arne