HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: american opinion
Date: 28 Dec 92 16:41:34 EST
Reply-To: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Distribution: talk
Organization: Channel 1 Communications

To: Harry Mamaysky

 HM> Please remember, Mr. McGuire, that criticism is directed at
 HM> you - and NOT at the American people. Fortunately, most
 HM> American people do not think the way you do. And don't you
 HM> be surprised if what you claim will happen never will.

I wonder who is better able to take an accurate read of the
secret life of American public opinion: someone like yourself who
is emotionally tangled up with a foreign country like Israel, or
someone who isn't?

Who is better in touch with American opinion: those who supported
the $10 billion loan guarantee for Israel, or those who opposed
it?

Who is better in touch with American opinion: those who support
Israel's recent deportation of Palestinians, or those who oppose
it?

At some point in the not too distant future I suspect that Israel
and the Israeli lobby will discover that they have been living in
a dream world when it comes to reading the mind and mood of the
American people. It is a serious mistake to project your
emotional obsessions on people who do not share them and to start
believing your own propaganda handouts.

Americans feel generally friendly towards the supposedly Western
democratic Israel that has traditionally been portrayed in the
mass media. The feeling doesn't run that deeply, however, and is
predicated on the image matching the reality.

The deterioration of Israel's standing in the U.S. during recent
years is quite remarkable. In case you haven't noticed, it's
increasingly difficult to find non-Jews who will speak
enthusiastically about Israel with the exception of Christian
fundamentalists whose hidden agenda towards the Jewish state and
Jews is predatory indeed.
---
  OLX 3.01 31-2557  A cult is a religion with no political power.
--
Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein)
Subject: Re: A plea for a bit of self examination
Keywords: honesty humility growth
Organization: NYSERNet, Inc.
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 22:38:37 GMT

Steve Rose sent a cogent reminder.  All the turmoil and bloodshed in
the Middle East is not an artificial event;  it affects real human
beings.

The fact that I am Jewish and naturally more concerned with the fate
of my fellow Jews does not diminish my recognition that, for example,
the plight of the Palestinian Arabs is indeed tragic, regardless of
the fact that their plight is self-inflicted.

I hope that, in the next secular year, we see some reciprocation of
the outstretched hand of the Israelis, some real negotiations and an
end to terrorism and bloodshed, with Arabs finally reconciling
themselves to living together with the Israelis in peace for the
benefit of all.
-- 
Alan H. Stein   -----  AJIN   -----  astein@israel.nysernet.org
From: marwang@staccato.rutgers.edu (Marwan Gharaybeh)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Occupation
Date: 2 Jan 93 20:19:58 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:

>In article <1992Dec27.163758.20159@wisipc.weizmann.ac.il> fedimit@wisipc.weizmann.ac.il (Dan Nabutovsky) writes:
>>
>>   And Israel is occupying nothing.

>Are you from the Golda Meir Brainwashing School?  Palestine was a
>land without a people and a people without a land?

It seems that a lot of people blindly believed everything that poped
off Miss Universe's mouth. Her charming face mislead a lot of people
to beleive all the lies she said.

>>   Judea, Samaria & Gaza were Israeli at least 3000 years.

>Yes, some 3000 years AGO!

No ... 3000 years ago when the hebrews came, palestine was not empty,
there were the Kanaaneet bedouwins (Considered Arab).

>Anisa
>	"The best kind - angry, rebellious, critical - a renegade ..."
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24009 talk.politics.soviet:9959 soc.culture.greek:11839 soc.culture.europe:10767 soc.history:10363 soc.culture.soviet:11508 soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna:958
From: ahmed@dsg.cs.tcd.ie (Ahmed El-Habbash)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: Quote of the week.
Date: 23 Dec 92 15:49:31 GMT
Organization: DSG, Dept. of Computer Science, Trinity College Dublin

In <Bzpv2z.GF9@newsflash.concordia.ca> ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira) writes:


>From:
>Message-ID: <christmas-israelU2DN540ae@clarinet.com>
>Date: Wed, 23 Dec 92 2:44:44 PST
>Location: israel
>Slugword: christmas-israel

>	JERUSALEM (UPI) ....
>	``The Arabs are boiling mad right now. It will be a miracle if (the
>authorities) can pull this off without bloodshed,'' said Jan Willem
>Vanderhoeven, spokesman for the International Christian Embassy, an
>evangelical organization based in Jerusalem.
>	``I prayed this morning that God will protect the Jews and the
>Christians,'' he said.

He did not pray for Muslims, because he is sure that more of them will
be deported and killed and that his prayer is not going to change the
situation, and will not give them any protection. However, his words
show love and sympathy to the Palestinians, particularly the Muslims.

-- 
Ahmed I. El-Habbash, 
Department of Computer Science, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland.
Tel: office: +353-1-7021524,  Home: +353-1-937402.
	
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian boy
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 92 01:22:30 GMT

In article <4719@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:
>In article <1992Dec17.221553.27455@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>>
>>I can't seem to interpret this in any other way than that Palestinian
>>violence against Palestinians is somehow justified.  Despite seeing
>>this presented as an argument quite a lot of times, I am still at a
>>loss about its logic. Perhaps you can explain it?
>
>Perhaps you will understand it better when the Israeli government
>keeps perpetuating division between Palestinian peoples - like trying
>to justify their expulsions of accused Hamas members through making
>them appear the 'real enemy' of the Palestinian peoples and of the
>peace talks itself.

"Perpetuating division"?  Are you crazy?!

Hamas and the PLO have been murdering each other for several years and
now the PLO is actually standing IN SUPPORT of the Hamas terrorists
who have been expelled and who were PLO murder targets just last week.
It's not unreasonable to assume that they will again be PLO murder
targets next week, too.  And you are blaming Israel for "perpetuating 
division" among Arabs?  Can't you take blame for ANY of your own
problems? 

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com              10 years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed President.
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Resisting occupation
Date: 25 Dec 92 00:28:11 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <42845@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans) writes:
>
>	One can hardly imagine anything more stripping of
>	identity and dignity than slavery.  Should blacks
>	have randomly killed white Americans back in 1850?
 
Perhaps they felt justified to do so after being so dehumanized.
And, continuing into 1950 +, they had every reason to strive
for civil rights and equality despite segregation and police
brutality (water cannons, arrests, beatings, etc. - sounds familiar,
doesn't it Ron?) to deny their resistance to racism and white
oppression, in all of its forms.
 
Anisa

	"We don't live in Israel.  Not at all.  We live in
	Palestinian territory.  It's Israeli occupied."
					Hanan Ashrawi
From: fedimit@wisipc.weizmann.ac.il (Dan Nabutovsky)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: WHY?
Date: 28 Dec 92 13:50:01 GMT
Organization: Weizmann Institute of Science, Computation Center

In article <1992Dec27.212907.11636@ncsu.edu> odkahn@eos.ncsu.edu (OPHER DANIEL KAHN) writes:
>In article <1992Dec27.155842.19790@wisipc.weizmann.ac.il> fedimit@wisipc.weizmann.ac.il (Dan Nabutovsky) writes:
>>>What do people want in the middle east? Why are they not satisfied?
>>>Why hasn't a solution been found?
>>
>>   Because Moslem fanatics want to destroy Israel,
>>and Israel doesn't want to be destroyed.
>
>And if you believe its as simple as that I have some real-estate you may
>be interested in...  This type of statement would sure make history books
>very short and simple.  Too bad real life is much more complicated!

   Middle-east politics is extremely complicated and unpredictable,
but the main reason for Israeli-Arab conflict is pretty obvious.
This is a complicated game with very simple rules. Ever played go?

Dan
From: ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian boy
Date: 20 Dec 92 07:59:29 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL


>In article <4570@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon
> Ehrlich)  I asked :

Whan an the Arabs on this net: what they expect an Arab soldier to do
in case Arabs occupied some toen in Israel , Judea, or samaria, and
jewish boyes stone him .

So far there were many responses to my article but not a single
to-the-point response.

So I have to answer my  question by myself.

  THE ARABIAN SOLDIER WILL SHOOT THE JEWISH BOYS.


We shell over come!   gideon     ERETS YISRAEL


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: ilyess@ECE.Concordia.CA (Ilyess Bdira)
Subject: Re: Hamas
Organization: ECE - Concordia University
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 19:10:00 GMT

In article <42941@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> revans@euclid.ucsd.edu (Ron Evans) writes:
><1ht1nmINNrkh@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah) writes:
>
>>hamas targets its attacks against soldiers not civilians. 
>
>	The attack on Pearl Harbor was also directed primarily
>	against soldiers.  
>
Also the attack on Iraq, Panama, and  other wars.  Maybe the killings by Hamas
have a higherSoldier to civilian ratio than the above examples. 
I won't mention WWII because it is not even close..
In all above examples (most recently Iraq) the answer would be "War is Hell".
but Israel is not willing to admit it is facing a war of liberation.

O.K I know already that you are going to reply, but Hamas is targeting
civilians intentionally, so I will save you this step and ask you: do
you have a proof that it is Hamas? Maybe it is the brother of one of the
9-10-11 year old children that the IDF killed?

Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24055 talk.politics.soviet:9973 soc.culture.greek:11851 soc.culture.europe:10780 soc.history:10370 soc.culture.soviet:11536 soc.culture.german:9519
From: backon@vms.huji.ac.il
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Name of Palestinian Deportees (part i)
Date: 31 Dec 92 07:05:20 GMT
Distribution: world
Organization: The Hebrew University of Jerusalem

In article <1ht1fiINNrhg@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah) writes:
>
> In a previous article, backon@vms.huji.ac.il () says:
>
>>1) Hamas is a terrorist organization
>>2) Dr. X is a member of Hamas
>>3) Ergo: Dr. X is a terrorist
>>
>
> Okay.. How about this for logic:
>
> 1. Israel deported 418 Hamases including Dr. X
> 2. 10 of these deportees are not members of these Hamases
> 3. Dr. X is a member of these 10.
> 4. Dr. X is not a terrorist after all.
>
> Dr.,  your logic sucks..
>
> Dr. X is not a terrorist unless he is convicted of killing
> your soldiers.
>


Ever hear of *accessory before or after the fact* in American law ? The
accessory before the fact can get the identical penalty (including the death
penalty) if he has knowledge of the event.

The Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal listed a large number of NAZI organizations
as *criminal* and membership per se in one of these organizations was grounds
enough for conviction.

What were you saying about "guilt by association" ?

Josh
backon@VMS.HUJI.AC.IL

>
> --
>                   ___________________ cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu _____________
>                  (______   _  |   _  |_
> _____ H A M Z A ________) |-| |_ |-| | |
From: varvel@plains.NoDak.edu (Andrew Varvel)
Subject: Re: Deportee Mistaken Identity
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 23:02:19 GMT
Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Computing Network

In article <1992Dec29.031236.16912@nysernet.org> astein@nysernet.org 
(Alan Stein) writes:
>cl056@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Hamaza H. Salah) writes:
>>The New York Times, Dec 28, 1992
>
>>"The Israeli newspaper Haaretz, citing army officials, said today
>> that 6 of the 415 deportees were victims of mistaken identity and
>> should not have been exiled.
>
>> Oded Ben-Ami, a spokesman for the Defense Ministry, said that he
>> was not aware of any "mistakes" in the deportation process, but
>> that the families of the deportees could raise appeals.
>
>> Taher Shriteh, a Palestinian journalist who works for several news
>> organizations, including the New York Times, was taken to the
>> Lebanese border with the other Palestinians last week and nearly
>> deported.  After releasing him, Israeli officials said his seizure
>> had been a mistake."
>>                                                      
>Thank you for pointing out that, when Israel makes a mistake, it
>rectifies it.  Thus we can all be sure that any of those deported in
>error will be permitted to return when the error is realized.

Hmmm.  If Israel made mistakes in identifying 6 or 10 deportees, how can we
really be sure that any of the deportations were of the right people in
Hamas or even Hamas supporters?  What's worse for Israel is that the people 
who may not have been Hamas supporters before being expelled might start 
thinking it's a good idea.  After all, what do they have to lose?

Salam,

Andrew Varvel
From: jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni)
Subject: Re: Israeli Expulsion of 418 Palestinians
Organization: The Department of Redundancy Department
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 92 00:15:22 GMT

In article <1992Dec26.220306.14377@informix.com> proberts@informix.com (Paul Roberts) writes:
>In article <1992Dec24.035503.18831@nysernet.org> astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:

>>On the other hand, in the case of the Hamas terrorists, we're not
>>talking about innocents.
>
>Funny, I don't recall any trials or convictions. How do you know 
>who is innocent and who isn't?

The same question arises when police shoot someone to death at the
scene of a crime, or when American soldiers shoot and kill Somali
gunmen, as they have several times in recent days, or when American
fighter jets shoot down an Iraqi plane.  In none of these cases does a
court case reach a decision before action is taken.

In any of these cases, a court case may be held after the fact to
decide if the action was proper.  The Hamas terrorists have much more
to gain from such a court case than the dead Somalis or Iraqi pilots.

Israel has handed down an unbelievably lenient punishment to people
who are unbelievably evil.  If only other countries would be half as
generous, we'd see a much kinder, gentler world.

-- 
Jake Livni  jake@bony1.bony.com              10 years from now, George Bush will
American-Occupied New York                   have replaced Jimmy Carter as the
My opinions only - employer has no opinions. standard of a failed President.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Date: Sunday, 20 December 1992 22:14:24 MST
X-Mailer: TMail version 1.15R
From: "D. C. Sessions" <dcs@witsend.tnet.com>
Organization: Nobody but me -- really
Subject: Re: WHY?
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Distribution: world

In <1h2ujgINN4m8@access.usask.ca>, choy@skorpio.usask.ca (I am a terminator.)  wrote:
# 
# What do people want in the middle east?

  Food, comfort, sex...

#                                         Why are they not satisfied?

  The sand gets into EVERYTHING!

# Why hasn't a solution been found?

  And spoil the game?  Abraham's children have made war in the
  family at least since Yaakov and Esav.  Why ruin a perfect record?

--- D. C. Sessions                            Speaking for myself ---
--- Note new network address:                dcs@witsend.tnet.com ---
--- Author (and everything else!) of TMail  (DOS mail/news shell) ---
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.rights.human
From: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Subject: Re: Israeli Expulsion of 418 Palestinians
Reply-To: makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu (David Makowsky)
Organization: Arizona State University, Tempe AZ
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1992 22:00:36 GMT

In article <1992Dec27.184109.7240@ncsu.edu> hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem) writes:

# In article <1992Dec27.165136.20053@nysernet.org>, astein@nysernet.org
# (Alan Stein) writes:

# > proberts@informix.com (Paul Roberts) writes:
 
# > >>On the other hand, in the case of the Hamas terrorists, we're not
# > >>talking about innocents.
 
# > >Funny, I don't recall any trials or convictions. How do you know 
# > >who is innocent and who isn't?
 
# > If you've seen any of the demonstrations on TV, you wouldn't ask that.
#                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  

# In Alan Stein's idea of a "just" society it is a deportable offense to
# speak out against the government. Oh! Excuse me, it is a deportable
# offense to be merely accused of demonstrating against the government.
# HeeHee :-)

	Your idiocy not withstanding, Israel is fighting a war forced on
her by you guys.  Those people were demonstrating there membership in
Hamas, which you and your buddies are claiming there is no proof of.

# I wonder what he would do to people who are guilty of more than "crimes"
# of conscience. 

	Killing people, and supporting it is a "crime of
conscience"?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

# > However, those terrorists will indeed get their day in court,
# > something Nissim Toledano wasn't given before they brutally murdered
# > him.  And, if it turns out that any of those temporarily deported are
# > not actually Hamas terrorists, they will get to return immediately
# > rather than in six months to two years.
 
# If any of them survive the "jailing"!!
 
# Really folks, this might not be such a bad idea for bringing the costs
# of the justice system down; leave the accused out in the elements
# without food, water or shelter until their "trial". If some of them die
# waiting, well, there will just be fewer cases to hear. HeeHee :-)

	You can say what you want, but Israel does not have a lot of
resources right now in terms of time or money.  I guess Israel should
just sit around and let Jews get slaughtered.  HeeHee :-)

# Alan, you are despicable.

	That's roght Alan.  You are despicable for wanting to protect
people against terrorism.  Remind me never to take that position.
HeeHee :-).
--
	There are three types of people in the world.  Those that are good
at math and those that are not.

makowsky@enuxhb.eas.asu.edu
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24443 soc.culture.jewish:24324
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Israel must return the deportees!
Date: 31 Dec 92 09:49:56 GMT
Followup-To: talk.politics.mideast
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <1992Dec31.050605.14968@newshub.ccs.yorku.ca> wc4209@writer.yorku.ca (Irene Berkovich) writes:
>
>Sorry British Israel-hating Jew (BIHJ),  you're wrong again.  Most of
>the territory of Palestine was *not* seized in 1948.  It was *ceded*
>in 1922 by the British to Abdullah, the grandfather of the present
>King of Jordan.  This land mass constitutes 76% of Palestine, and was
>originally called TransJordan.  The name was later changed to Jordan
>in order to erase any identification with Palestine.  Even today
>Jordann has a *majority* Palestinian population.  So the Palestinians
>*do* have a Palestine.  Unfortunately, it's being ruled by a Saudi
>(Hashemite) who has no business ruling there.  So they definitely have
>a case for a Palestinian state in Jordan.

I hate to quote Hitler, but he did say that if you tell a lie long
enough, people begin to believe it.

>I think Israel is entitled to keep its 24% of 'Palestine' as a Jewish
>country.

So, by this logic, the other 76% belongs to the Palestinians.

>P.S.  When will Britain stop occupying Northern Ireland?

When Britain stops occupying South Africa ... maybe.

Anisa

P.S.  I hear that Irene means peace in Greek ...

Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24357 talk.politics.soviet:10072 soc.culture.greek:11949 soc.culture.europe:10892 soc.history:10441 soc.culture.soviet:11675
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.culture.soviet
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Armenian admission to the crime of the Turkish Genocide.
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 92 19:50:02 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <1992Dec29.185651.39309@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu> pv02@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (PETER VOROBIEFF) writes:

>Well, it turns out that at the level of infamous Anatolia POTZ_Master there
>is a gizmo that forwards all mail to /dev/null. 

C'mon, you still haven't corrected yourself.

"The atrocities and massacres which have been committed for a long time
 against the Muslim population within the Armenian Republic have been 
 confirmed with very accurate information, and the observations made by
 Rawlinson, the British representative in Erzurum, have confirmed that
 these atrocities are being committed by the Armenians. The United States
 delegation of General Harbord has seen the thousands of refugees who came 
 to take refuge with Kazim Karabekir's soldiers, hungry and miserable, 
 their children and wives, their properties destroyed, and the delegation
 was a witness to the cruelties. Many Muslim villages have been destroyed
 by the soldiers of Armenian troops armed with cannons and machine guns
 before the eyes of Karabekir's troops and the people. When it was hoped
 that this operation would end, unfortunately since the beginning of 
 February the cruelties inflicted on the Muslim population of the region
 of Shuraghel, Akpazar, Zarshad, and Childir have increased. According
 to documented information, 28 Muslim villages have been destroyed in the
 aforementioned region, more than 2,000 people have been slaughtered,
 many possessions and livestock have been seized, young Muslim women
 have been taken to Kars and Gumru, thousands of women and children who
 were able to flee their villages were beaten, raped and massacred in the
 mountains, and this aggression against the properties, lives, chastity 
 and honour of the Muslims continued. It was the responsibility of the
 Armenian Government that the cruelties and massacres be stopped in order 
 to alleviate the tensions of Muslim public opinion due to the atrocities 
 committed by the Armenians, that the possessions taken from the Muslims
 be returned and that indemnities be paid, that the properties, lives,
 and honour of the Muslims be protected."

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)