HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: klotz@lclark.edu (Gretchen Klotz)
Subject: Re: Leaving the USA
Organization: Lewis & Clark College, Portland OR
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 21:43:54 GMT

In article <1SEP199207314749@rosie.uh.edu> lib1p@rosie.uh.edu (Tammy Stark Blandino) writes:
>There has been a thread where people have talked about leaving
>this country if things get to bad.  Others have flamed about
>this leaving.  Saying that they should stay and fight to make it
>a better country.
>
>CHOICE
>
>It all comes down to choices.  Our religion thrives on it.  As in
>our religion "All paths are but different paths to the same end".
>One must choose the path which is CORRECT FOR THEM.  If that path
>is to leave, then leave.  If that path is to stay, then stay.
>You should never critize someone for their choices.  Right or wrong
>it is theirs to make.  If they are wrong then they will learn from
>it.  If it is right then they will learn from it also.
>
>With all the intolerance out there against us, can't we try and be
>a little more tolerant of each other.
>
>Blessed Be,
>
>Tammy
>lib1p@jetson.uh.edu


Tammy -

I agree with you wholeheartedly.  I haven't been following the thread
'cause I get so down when people trash each other for having a different
perspective.  Alas, many of the participants will *choose* to disregard
the option to be more tolerant of people who, despite making different
choices, are basically on the same side of the fence.  (I've seen this
several times in this newsgroup, many times in other newsgroups, and
frequently in life...)

It's similar to how the issue of different activist styles plays itself
out in lesbigay culture.  Queer Nation has every right to their
out-and-confrontational approach, as does the Right to Privacy PAC to
their behind-the-scenes political maneuvering.  Working for change from
without and from within the system are equally valid, equally important
approaches.  Trashing each other only weakens all of us.  We all need each
other to survive. 

Personally I'm a healer, not a fighter.  You and I, Tammy, may sound
idealistic to those with a different approach.  Fear is what motivates the
fundies and others in the right wing.  Let's not let it further divide us. 

Blessed Be,

- Gretchen
-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Gretchen Klotz		      Computing Services
              klotz@lclark.edu			Lewis & Clark College
From: darsie@eecs.ucdavis.edu (Richard Darsie)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: more books - nonfiction
Date: 26 Aug 92 16:07:42 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University of California, Davis

I'm on Barnes and Noble's mailing list and get these luscious catalogs
from them every other week it seems, full of great books that I can't
afford to get :-)

They almost always have a good selection of books relating to P/paganism,
so I'm posting some info about them: title, author, and their blurb.  
I'll include ordering info so if anyone sees something they can't pass up 
they can just send for it.  Shipping and "insurance" charges are
as follows: $2.50 for merchandise under $15.00, $3.50 for merchandise
between $15 and $24.99, $4.50 for merchandise between $25 and $44.99, 
and $5.50 for merchandise $45 and up. Must add tax when ordering from
California, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Michigan, New Jersey,
New York, and Pennsylvania.
(Disclaimer: I am not in any way shape or form associated with B&N.)

THE MAGIC ARTS IN CELTIC BRITAIN, by Lewis Spence.  Item #1819671, $8.95
The author is an expert in the field of the occult arts, and his conclusions
in this book often differ from the conclusions of some scholars well-
versed in Celtic history but lacking expertise in anthropology or in
folk-lore. The book includes theories about the origins of the Druids
and their association with the cult of the Divine King, the British belief '
in Reincarnation, the cults of Arthur, the mystery of the Holy Grail,
the question of Second Sight, Celtic spells and charms, necromancy,
prophecy and divination. 

THE ELEMENTS OF CELTIC TRADITION, by Caitlin Matthews.  Item #1606607, $7.95
This enchanting book helps to unravel the eternal mysteries of the Celts:
Where did they come from? Why do we still celebrate their Festivals?
What are their magical and mystical traditions? Why is their
tradition still so influential in our art, music and poetry?

THE ELEMENTS OF THE GODDESS, by C. Matthews.  Item #1643287, $7.95
Illuminates manifestations of the Divine Feminine and offers ways for
20th century men and women to create their own relationship to Her.
The author focuses on bridging the difficulties Western people face
in relating to mythology with a radically different cultural basis than
their own.

THE ELEMENTS OF THE DRUID TRADITION, by Philip Carr-Gomm.
Item #1748656, $7.95
Beyond popular myths surrounding the Druids there is a spiritual 
tradition which continues to flourish. This author describes the Celtic Fire
Festivals and the connection between Druidry, Wicca and other
spiritual traditions as well as the modern Druid's path of self-discovery,
healing, and attuning to the natural world.

CELTIC GODS, CELTIC GODDESSES, by R. J. Stewart. Item #1833581, $14.95
Detailed look at the mythology, magic and religion of the Celts that
examines their enduring strengths and their continued relevance. Explores
the complex and fluid relationship between the gods as people, symbols
of nature, and sacred powers.
From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: not-quite-Pagan fiction, but what the hell?
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 27 Aug 92 21:52:37 GMT

This isn't REALLY Pagan at all, and mentioning it will probably brand me
as a geek for the rest of my life, but TFB.

You're going to laugh at this, but Keith Sharee wrote a Star Trek: the
Next Generation novella called _Gulliver's Fugitives_ about a world
where fiction and works of the imagination are capital crimes.  Most of
the new ST novellas stink, but this one is rather special.

An interesting sidelight is the civilization's opinions on
religion; the world is called Rampart, and it was colonized by people
kind of like Puritans from Earth.  Here's a quote:

-------------------
"`This Bible sets forth the only true religion.  All other religions and
philosophies are hereby declared false and criminal.  

"`Everything contained in this Bible has been verified as factual truth,
and is to be accepted as such, and in no other way, by the reader.  Any
interpretation of this Bible as metaphor, literature, or mythology is
expressly forbidden.

"`Violators will be subject to the full penalties as determined by the
Council of Truth and enforced by Cephalic Security.

"To report criminal violations call this number toll free . . .'

"Picard leafed further into the book.  It was recognizable as a
Rampartian version of the Christian Bible.  The Rampartians had
annotated it throughout with `proofs' as to the `factual' nature of its
`events.'

"What confused people, he thought -- they take what should be understood
as a metaphorical story and they try to make it into science and
history.  They see a hand pointing a moral direction, and instead of
looking to see where it points, they spend their time sucking on its
finger and declaring to themselves, `It's a finger, a finger, a
finger.'" 
--------------

Throughout the book, there are, of course, rebels called Dissenters who
call themselves by fictional names and celebrate by telling old stories
over firelight.  I didn't see any neglect of any kind of stories; names
like Odysseus, Rhiannon, Caliban, Nummo, Gunabibi, Coyote, Nikita
Lomov, Tezcatlipoca, and Sekhmet occur side-by-side.  This book is not 
Euro-centric.

As I said, most of these books are the mental equivalent of cotton candy
-- chewing gum for the mind as someone once said about TV.  This
particular one, though, is special.  I never fail to enjoy reading it.

Again, it's not Pagan, but the otherworldy and spiritual flavor of the
fiction and those who treasure it is marvelous.  You might not be a ST
fan, and even though I like it, there are still things about it that
drive me up a wall.  I encourage you to try to book, though.

Blessings,
Janis
From: darsie@eecs.ucdavis.edu (Richard Darsie)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Pat Robertson quote (good for a nervous laugh)
Date: 26 Aug 92 15:39:29 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: University of California, Davis

Seen on rec.humor:

 Religous broadcaster Pat Robertson, who is always good for a laugh, is
actively campaigning against Iowa's proposal to put the Equal Rights
Amendment on their state constitution. Wire Reports reports he said in
a letter last month that the ERA is part of a "feminist agenda" that
"is not about equal rights for women." Instead, he wrote, "it is about a 
socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to
leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy
capitalism and become lesbians."

How can anybody take this guy seriously??

Richard
(Tuneweaver)
From: altheimm@nextnet.csus.edu (Murray Altheim)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Who/what is Baphomet?
Date: 31 Aug 92 16:53:05 GMT
Article-I.D.: csus.1992Aug31.165305.18723
Organization: California State University Sacramento

In article <5uJ9PB1w165w@brewich.hou.tx.us> donal@brewich.hou.tx.us (Donal) writes:
[discussion of Baphomet/Mahomet/Mohammed and the Templars:]  
>altheimm@nextnet.csus.edu (Murray Altheim) writes:
>> <1992Aug28.145118.18041@burrhus.harvard.edu> canders@isr.harvard.e
>> <1992Aug28.020535.20478@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> pciszek@nyx.cs.du.ed
>> 
>> Actually, it's not conjecture. Mohammed -> Mahomet -> Baphomet is correct.
>> The spelling of Mohammed was "Mahomet" in certain languages of the period.
>> 
>> The Templars were a Christian order charged with guarding the Temple of
>> Solomon, and in guarding Christian pilgrims on their trek to the Holy Land.
[...]
>> For a bit of fun, Lawrence Durrell includes the hunt for the Templar treasure
>> as well as a fairly accurate history in two of his fiction series, both
>> in the Alexandria Quartet, and especially his Avignon Quincunx (four books
>> around a central fifth text). Some people might not like his style -- he is
>> an inveterate word-crafter and very "thick", but among _my_ favorites.
>> 
>> Blessings, 
>> 
>> Murray
>
>For more interesting semi-fictional history of the Templars, see 
>_Focault's Pendulum_ by the same guy that wrote _Name of the Rose_... 
>just can't seem to pull the name out of the air!!! (I hate it when this 
>happens)... anyway F's P is a magnificent book, and should give all of us 
>who are in esoteric pursuits a moments pause!
> 
>Blessed Be!
>
>Donal, Sysop of The Brewer's Witch BBS -- +1 713 272 7350
>(Internet) donal@brewich.hou.tx.us  (Work) bill%pssi@lobster.hou.tx.us
>(CIS) 76460,1443 
>(SCA) Ld. Donal Dubh, IC of Dun Bruddair, B of the Stargate, K of Ansteorra

Just to insert a difference of taste, the reason I didn't mention Foucault's
Pendulum is that, while I admit Umberto Eco is a formidable thinker, his 
books are rather ponderous. Some people like gaming theory and enjoy the
play. Durrell is an equally complex writer, but in a different vein. I do
admit that the discussion of the Templar history is very well thought out by
Eco, and agrees with Durrell and the other sources of Templar history I've
read. 

To each his/her own...  :-)

Blessings, 

Murray

-- 
Murray M. Altheim      "Ils ont l'orteil de Bouc, & d'un Chevreil l'oreille,
Instructional Consultant    La corne d'un Chamois, & la face vermeille
CSU, Sacramento          Comme un rouge Croissant: & dancent toute nuict
altheimm@csus.edu       Dedans un carrefour, ou pres d'une eau qui bruict."
From: ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com (Ailsa N.T. Murphy)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Eyes (was Re: Chocolate (was Re: "gangway, folx"))
Date: Tue, 01 Sep 92 11:48:07 EDT
Organization: Ailanthus Project

altheimm@nextnet.csus.edu (Murray Altheim) writes:

> Well, dammit, I guess we can finally wrap up that nagging P/pagan
> definition question, as we've conclusively found the rule:
>
>    ALL PAGANS HAVE EYES LIKE JANIS' EYES.
>
> This means of course, there will be those who continue to argue,
> and we can all agree that THOSE people are pretty frivolous.
>
> And likewise, we can expect those false P/pagans with the Janis-
> colored contact lenses, those terrible pseudo-pagans.
>
> Thank the God/Goddess for the TRUE, CORRECT eye color!!
>
> Blessings to all like-eye-colored P/pagans only, (those with mundane
> eyes can burn in the seventh Tibetan Hell (where they peel out your
> un-god-like eyes and replace them with cold aggies.))
>

*ahem*  my eyes are BLUE.  are you implying i am not a pagan?  how DARE you,
sir!

B) for the smiley-impaired...

                                             -ailsa

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
                    ailsa%ailanth.uucp@wang.com
 I wish her insight to battle love's blindness            ________
 Strength from the milk of human kindness         Silence \      / Action
 A safe place for all the pieces that scattered      =     \    /    =
 Learn to pretend there's more than love           Death    \  /    Life
                                  that matters               \/
From: mad@spirit.spirit.clearpoint.com (Michael Davis)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Bailing Out (rant) (was: Re: Freedom of Re
Date: 1 Sep 92 17:27:10 GMT
	<17ucmiINNhgk@stanley.cis.Brown.EDU> <2AA2C29B.21477@orion.oac.uci.edu>
	<17uhorINNhrp@stanley.cis.Brown.EDU>
Organization: Walking Dead Man Bar and Grille

On 1 Sep 92 01:40:27 GMT, SL500000@brownvm.brown.edu (Robert Mathiesen) said:

[paragraph about creation/conservation/deletion of wealth deleted]

Robert> So the religious right, or something equally totalitarian, may cause
Robert> a lot of suffering for a long time, but probably for less long than
Robert> one's worst nightmares suggest.

I agree with the sentiment that the suffering caused by a tyranny of
conservative/fundamentalist religious government, if it comes about at
all, will be less than some of the nightmares presented on a.p.  I
have the following reasons for thinking so:

	1.  People rarely, in my experience, fulfill the best hopes or
the worst fears of their neigbors.  Most will look out for their own
hides, though, and therefore we should not expect much help if the
crunch comes.

	2.  There is too much intertia at the center, and the
politicians of the right, regardless of their rhetoric, must cater to
the majority.  Even though my own community (Newton, MA) is fairly
tolerant, and this inevitably will color my outlook, I don't think it
is too great a leap of faith to suppose that the majority will think
something along the lines "I'm against paganism/witchcraft/whatever,
but these people have rights."  To reiterate, squeaky wheels like Pat
Robertson get grease (i.e. attention), but they wouldn't have to
complain so much if they had any real power.

	3.  I'm an optimist.  :^)


Robert>                                   I doubt they have the intelligence
Robert> to solve the sort of problems we've been talking about here.  -- Robert

This is a dangerous thing to believe.  Underestimating your opponents
can blind you to their capabilities until it's too late.  At MIT, I
noticed no shortage of membership in the Campus Crusade for Christ,
for what it's worth, and at any rate,  "they" have survived for
millenia, at times running working theocracies, so some fundies must
have something on the ball.

Blessings and Peace


--
-mad

Michael A. Davis		mad@spirit.clearpoint.com

Clearpoint Research Corp. / 135 Parkwood Drive / Hopkinton, MA 01738
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu (Paul Ciszek)
Subject: Re: Freedom of Religion
Keywords: Civil Rights, Pagan
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 92 02:21:04 GMT

mimir@milton.u.washington.edu (Al Billings) writes:

> Well, I hate to tell you, but to the knowledge of everyone I've talked
>to, professional and not, they still haven't found a way to easily crack
>RSA encrytption. Besides, even if they did, it would take quite a bit of
>computer time. I receive a lot of e-mail. If it was all encrypted, they
>would have WEEKS of time to crack it all.

Uh, with a public-key system, the amount of ciphertext is irrelevant.  Rather
than muck about with text, the most efficient course of action is a
mathematical attack on your public key; yes it *does* take a lot of computer
time, but less and less each year.  (Heck-- each day!)  And once the BadGuys
have derived your private key from the public, decryption is as easy for them
as it is for you.
--
Paul Ciszek, pciszek@nyx.cs.du.edu | No nation was ever drunk when wine was
                                   | cheap.   -- Thomas Jefferson
From: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Subject: Re: Intolerance and the pagan "community"
Reply-To: ciaran@county.lmt.mn.org (Ciaran Benson)
Organization: LaserMaster Technologies, Minneapolis, MN
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 92 20:01:26 GMT

>>markbr@radian.UUCP (Mark Roth) writes:

>>Who would help make sure I could pay my bills, and child
>>support, if I were to lose my job due to religious
>>discrimination? 

>donal@brewich.hou.tx.us (Donal) responds;

>Just a note here, not a comment on your entire post. I was
>listening  to a lesbian lawyer talking yesterday on KPFT's
>Breakthrough Show. She was saying that there is absolutely no
>protection in Texas from being fired for being Gay. There IS,
>however, protection from being fired for religious
>discrimination. You would have an open and shut case.

  You'd have to prove that you were fired due to religious
discrimination.  Most companies are much too clever to ever
state such discriminatory things in writing.  Usually, you're
just fired because of unco-operativeness, rudeness to customers,
or bad attitude.

  "Failure to smile, talking back to elders, bad attitude.  Farm,
immediately.  Heart attack this time, I think." (a boy & his dog)

  Even if (as happened to a friend), you're called in on the
carpet and told to renounce your faith or be fired for
insubordination.  Your word versus their's.  How many of us could
afford to fight something like that in court WITHOUT
DOCUMENTATION of the incident.  Even the ACLU said to drop it.

  By the way, nice post, Mark.  I wanna sit on it for a day or
so before I say anything, though.

  Blessed be, Ciaran.


Xref: sparky alt.destroy.the.earth:558 alt.folklore.science:3175
From: amconn01@ulkyvx.louisville.edu
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.the.earth,alt.folklore.science
Subject: Re: Igniting the Atmosphere
Date: 27 Aug 92 17:53:59 GMT
Organization: University of Louisville

In article <1992Aug26.152818.15129@husc3.harvard.edu>, rocher@husc8.harvard.edu (Jean-Marc Rocher) writes:> 
> 	Some other UL's I've heard concerning Trinity: The scientists were
> betting on whether the explosion would destroy the world, or just New
> Mexico. During the blast, Oppenheimer dropped a handful of shredded paper
> and, by observing how the shock wave blew them as they fell, accurately
> calculated the energy released by the explosion.


I think it was Fermi who did the paper bit.

Connor/Castigat ridendo mores
 
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.the.earth
From: locklin@titan.ucc.umass.edu ()
Subject: Re: Igniting the Atmosphere
Organization: Campus Crusade for Cthulhu
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 21:01:45 GMT
X-Posted-From: titan.ucc.umass.edu
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu

In article <gunnarh.53@dhhalden.no> gunnarh@dhhalden.no (GUNNAR HORRIGMO) writes:
>In article <1992Sep1.215007.3739@news.weeg.uiowa.edu> jagnow@al.weeg.uiowa.edu (Al Jagnow) writes:
>
>	[stuff deleted]
>
>>how do you calculate the burn time for the Pacific Ocean?
>
>So now water is a flammable liquid? Please post all fact's behind this teori 
>as I find it very hard to believe.
>
>----Gunnarh

We're talking about thermonuclear Fusion you bozo!  :)   :)

-Scott

Newsgroups: alt.destroy.the.earth
From: gunnarh@dhhalden.no (GUNNAR HORRIGMO)
Subject: Re: Igniting the Atmosphere
Organization: Ostfold College
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 13:18:57 GMT

In article <1992Sep1.215007.3739@news.weeg.uiowa.edu> jagnow@al.weeg.uiowa.edu (Al Jagnow) writes:

	[stuff deleted]

>how do you calculate the burn time for the Pacific Ocean?

So now water is a flammable liquid? Please post all fact's behind this teori 
as I find it very hard to believe.

----Gunnarh
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.the.earth
From: swcramer@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (The Shadow)
Subject: Re: kill
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 21:04:36 GMT


and PJF...  if you would like to volunteer...  we have to start
somewhere.

Newsgroups: alt.destroy.the.earth
From: jagnow@al.weeg.uiowa.edu (Al Jagnow)
Subject: Re: Igniting the Atmosphere
Reply-To: jagnow@al.weeg.uiowa.edu (Al Jagnow)
Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 16:10:21 GMT

In article <gunnarh.53@dhhalden.no> gunnarh@dhhalden.no (GUNNAR HORRIGMO)  
writes:
> In article <1992Sep1.215007.3739@news.weeg.uiowa.edu>  
jagnow@al.weeg.uiowa.edu (Al Jagnow) writes:
> 
> 	[stuff deleted]
> 
> >how do you calculate the burn time for the Pacific Ocean?
> 
> So now water is a flammable liquid? Please post all fact's behind this teori 
> as I find it very hard to believe.
> 
> ----Gunnarh
I was speculating about fusing the hydrogen in the ocean -- but, that's an 
interesting thought - giant solar panels to generate DC current to electrolyze  
the ocean. Eventually, you might be able to get enough hydrogen into the  
atmosphere to have an explosive mixture.  The hydrogen would have a tendency to  
drift off into space, but if you electrolyzed the ocean fast enough you should  
still be able to get an explosive mixture. I don't have a handbook here, but  
hydrogen has a very large combustion range -- I think you only need a few  
percent to ignite -- (4% mixture ??) 

Probably wouldn't be able to pull it off - people would notice their voices  
changing pitch as the percentage of hydrogen increased.... That, and the  
formation of metal hydrides -- all the cold-fusion experimenters would notice  
that their palladium electrodes were being saturated with hydrogen prior to  
insertion in the test cells

OK, it's a silly idea, but the calculations might make an interesting problem  
for a physics test....
Newsgroups: alt.destroy.the.earth,alt.folklore.science