HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: efstse@epsilon.eecs.nwu.edu (Serafim Efstratiadis)
Subject: Re: DON'T RECOGNIZE SKOPJE-23 REASONS
Organization: EECS Department, Northwestern University
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1992 15:51:45 GMT

In article <101985@bu.edu> buis@buengc.bu.edu (Lou Buis) writes:
>In article <1992Nov14.133418.23311@eecs.nwu.edu> efstse@epsilon.eecs.nwu.edu 
>(Serafim Efstratiadis) writes:
>>In article <101776@bu.edu> buis@buengc.bu.edu (Lou Buis) writes:
>>>
>>>	I read the 23 "reasons" carefuly, and not a single one was
>>>	well argumented. Very poorly done job. 
>>>
>>>	Is this the best you can do?
>>>
>>>		- Lou
>>
>>One can only be brainwashed and biased to respond like that.
>>
>>I'm sorry for you, Lou.
>
>	
>	No need to be sorry, Serefim, just present some reasonable
>	argument to support the claim. That's all.

Get the name right, Lou. It's Serafim. I suppose any name with more than
one syllables is tough for you to grasp, right? ;-)

I did 23 serious arguments, dear chap. The problem is your brain cells are
out of tune. Why don't you comment on them, mister. Someone at least tried.

>	That would be much more efficient than all the drawings of carpet and
>	vase motifs that you are unselfishly sharing with the audience
>	on these groups. 
>
>>Serafim..............................Macedon at heart and Hellen in mind.
>>________________________________________________________________________
>>    M A C E D O N I A   I S   T H E   H E A R T   O F   H E L L A S
>>========================================================================
>> ______   ____   ______   ____   ______   ____   ______   ____   _____
>>|  __  | |  _ | |  __  | |  _ | |  __  | |  _ | |  __  | |  _ | |  __  |
>>| | _| | | |__| | | _| | | |__| | | _| | | |__| | | _| | | |__| | | _| |
>>| |____| |______| |____| |______| |____| |______| |____| |______| |____|
>>======================================================================== 

Now, what's wrong with sharing a nice piece of art, rosie cheeks?

>
>	And regarding the "brainwash", don't you think that your signature 
>	is indicative how unbiased your mind is? 

No. It's just shows that I have a good taste.

>	Or, maybe I didn't understand your signature well. Maybe it doesn't
>	say anything about the bias of your mind, but just expresses some 
>	internal emotional ambivalency, a love-struggle inside you that you,
>	again, needed to share with us: you love a guy, Macedon, while your 
>	mind tells you should love the girl, Hellen.

Well, what can I say, Lou. Your brain is a terrible thing to own.

>	Yassu,
>
>		- Lou

kai hara sou

Serafim..................................................a Macedon Greek
========================================================================
 ______   ____   ______   ____   ______   ____   ______   ____   _____
|  __  | |  _ | |  __  | |  _ | |  __  | |  _ | |  __  | |  _ | |  __  |
| | _| | | |__| | | _| | | |__| | | _| | | |__| | | _| | | |__| | | _| |
| |____| |______| |____| |______| |____| |______| |____| |______| |____|
========================================================================
From: c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: More on forgeries and hidden identities of our feathered friend
Date: 17 Nov 1992 13:13:42 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

Deniz writes:
> I actually disagree. 90% of Turks that I know have expressed ridicule
> for Argic postings, or at least some annoyance that it was too much.
> But, there really seems to be nothing to do, how do you stop a forger?
> The mail is obviously forged, and there seems to be no way to stop a
> determined hacker from getting to USENET and flooding.  I think the
> easiest way to stop the Argic personality (for it is probably a bunch of
> people doing the postings) is to deprive them of the attention they
> crave.  How long do you think they will keep on posting if they received
> stony silence?

About a couple of years...

Next week I'll be posting some sample source code in comp.windows.x
or wherever. I'll call a variable Mutlu and another Argic. Wanna
bet Argic's powerful grep will catch it and prepare the appropriate
response? (not kidding, watch source groups for details).

I write an article about Poultry and he responds with his usual crap
about Greeks mistreating Dinosaurs. Now, my own home computer is on
the net, just like his. I could play the same kind of crappy tricks he
does to pretty much post anonymously; It ain't all that hard if you
have a feed that cooperates (and anatolia.mn.org DOES cooperate,
right, Ahmet?)  It takes extremely little effort to get uucp up and
running from a PC, took me the best part of 2 hours.

I write an article about buses in Greece, and, you guessed it, more
Mutlu crap. No big deal I guess. If the net administrators are busy
debating whether to call a group rec.music.synth instead of
rec.music.makers.synth (see debate in news.groups) they can bear a
few more KiloMutlus... Yo, Mutlu, I post quite a bit on rec.autos, too.

Anyhow... The man obviously has an ax to grind. Let him do it. It ain't
costing me anything. He and his employer (THE phone company) are getting
rich out of it. Can you imagine all these poor bastards with the
trailblazers paying to UUCP Hasan's crap? Chi-Ching!

(Oh, Hasan, how's Dho Nesve doing?)

Spiros
--
Spiros Triantafyllopoulos                    "I don't want to make money,
c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com                 I just want to read News..."



Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:10573 soc.culture.yugoslavia:9512 soc.culture.europe:9541
From: pef@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Panayotis Fouliras; TA PhD)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
Subject: Re: Scopjian Flag
Date: 16 Nov 92 02:27:12 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London

In <BxrFC2.Mv6@gabriel.keele.ac.uk> cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear) writes:
>Now while I agree that the use of the Vergina star as the Republic of
>Macedonia's flag is tactless, we might consider that Greece using this
>same symbol all over its stamps etc as part of its 'Macedonia is Greece'
>propaganda campaign is equally tactless, given that the modern Greeks
>are equally unrelated to the ancient Macedonians as the inhabitants of
>the Republic of Macedonia.  I wonder if the Macedonia adoption of the
>flag design was in response to this mass propaganda - I'm afraid I don't
>know enough about the chronology of this symbol war to come down one way
>or the other here.  I think I'd like to see Macedonia adopt a different
>symbol in return for Greece finally stopping her psuedo-historiacal
>posturing and recognising Macedonia for what it is the republic of
>Macedonia.  Alternatively both sides could just use the symbol
>recognising that the fact that they both occupy a land once inhabited by
>the ancient Macedonians makes this period part of both of their culture
[..]

Here we go again. The same person, the same tape. Time and
again I see this proposterous claim (Macedonias during the
classic, etc times were not Greek), but no hard evidence.
Why? Is it because none could be substansiated in the past?
Personal reasons?

"Abyss the soul of man..."

Panayotis
--
UUCP:      pef@qmw-dcs.uucp  | Computer Science Dept    | "H Rwmania
Internet:  pef@dcs.qmw.ac.uk | QMW University of London |  kai an
JANET:     pef@uk.ac.qmw.dcs | Mile End Road            |  eperasen,
Voice:     +44 71 975 5220   | London E1 4NS            |  anthei kai
FAX:       +44 81 980 6533   |                          |  ferei kai
Cellphone: Too expensive to fit                            allon"
Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:10703 soc.culture.yugoslavia:9584 soc.culture.europe:9652
From: gavras@acs.bu.edu (alexis gavras)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.turkish
Subject: I.Q. of a Virus
Date: 20 Nov 92 19:19:46 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.greek
Organization: Boston University, Boston, MA, USA
Originator: gavras@acs.bu.edu

In article <9211162017@zuma.UUCP> sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic/Hasan Mutlu/
Whoever-the-fuck-he-is) does it again:

>In article <9709@blue.cis.pitt.edu.UUCP> cacst9+@pitt.edu (Cecelia A Clancy) 
>writes:
>
>>Come on, Argic-efendi, don't call Vissar a liar.
>
>Don't insult our collective low intelligence. 


Speak for yourself, pal. Nothing does more to bring down our average I.Q.
than your presence. Anyone care to guess its actual value?

                         -Alexis

"Without music there would truly be reason to go mad"

                               -Tchaikovsky
From: kutluk@ccl.umist.ac.uk (Kutluk Ozguven)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Clinton, Bush, or Perot for Greece?
Date: 16 Nov 92 12:08:02 GMT
Organization: Manchester Computing Centre

In <7890.3248.uupcb@factory.com> michael.polymenakos@factory.com (Michael Polymenakos) writes:

> If that is how Bush handles dictators and war-mongers now, do you trust
>him to make the right decision when Turkey pulls a stunt like invading
>Armenia (which seems to be what they are getting ready to do next).

Turkey has sent 100,000 tons of  grains to Armenia for this winter,
and Armenia has expressed their gratitude.  Turkey said it is ready to
cooperate in all fields if Armenia draws back from the occupied Azeri
territory. Therefore your anti-Turkish point is all wrong. If there is
no mass murder of its people, Turkey never goes to war. This has always
been so during the Republican period. 

The recent trouble is not Turkey  but when will Greece stop
colloborating the Serbian genocidal government (in diplomacy, oil transport,
money laudering etc.) , and what kind of invasion plan the two
have prepared for the Macedonian Republic.

Kutluk
Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:10616 soc.culture.yugoslavia:9540 soc.culture.europe:9576
From: chatzi@beauty.asd.sgi.com (Chatzigianis Tony)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: National Geographic's map
Keywords: Macedonia
Date: 21 Nov 92 16:17:00 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: beauty.asd.sgi.com

The latest issue of national geographic includes a map
of Europe, where it has been *decided* that there is a new nation
next to Macedonia (nothern province of greece in case someone in his/her
ignorance of history/geography hasn't noticed), with the name Macedonia !!!???
But then again, I never thought that americans knew anything about geography, let alone
history.


-- 
*********************************************************
An eye for an eye		  Tony Chatzi
will make the world go blind      ASD Video x3418
*********************************************************
From: tunal@mizar.usc.edu (Tamer Unal)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: "Bayraktar/Omerye" mosques had been "totally vandalised" by the Greeks.
Date: 18 Nov 92 22:45:40 GMT
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
NNTP-Posting-Host: mizar.usc.edu

msg7038@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Michalis  Syrimis) writes:

>In article <9211120158@zuma.UUCP>, sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic) writes:
>|> UNESCO expert Mr Jacques Dalibard's report presented in Jan 1976,
>|> no. RP/975-76/3.41.
>|> 
>|> This report expresses in para. 6.c. that "Bayraktar" and "Omerye"
>|> mosques had been "totally vandalised" by the Greeks and that their
>>|> minarets had been destroyed by them.
>|> 
>Here's another gem from Serdar/Mutlu database.  Both these monuments are
>in Nicosia, and I happen to Know that they are in perfect condition.
>They have been restored and are maintained by the Antiquities Dept.  The 
>Omerye mosque, known to the Greek Cypriots as the Emerqe mosque is actually
>being used the  by Musulmans living in Cyprus.

I believe you are wrong. Bayraktar and Omerye were in bad shape due
to vandalization by the Greeks. They may have been restored in the
late70's or early 80's for cosmetic/propaganda reasons. An attitude all
too common in both sides...

>>|> Serdar Argic

>University of Illinois

-- 
Serdar Boztas
posting from someone else's account with their permission
normally at serdar@fawlty8.eng.monash.edu.au
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: jyc@leo.Stanford.EDU (Jon Corelis)
Subject: Re: bus experiences in Greece, Skopje
Organization: DSO, Stanford University
Date: 15 Nov 92 20:14:28 GMT

   I've spent a lot of time on Greek buses and have found them fairly
good.  My main criticism is that it's all too common to see a bus driver
puffing away on a cigarette immediately under the large NO SMOKING sign.

   One thing that seems to happen regularly on Greek buses is:  bus
stops in middle of nowhere.  Person on roadside gets on bus.  Stands in
door way and gets in prolonged shouting match with driver.  Then,
shouting match over, person calmly takes seat.  Usually they're talking
too fast for me to understand their Greek.  This happens so often that
we got to measuring bus trips by "argument" -- e.g., "Athens to Sparta
is about a four-argument trip." 

   A good way to keep entertained is to sit near the driver -- often you
can learn lots of colorful Greek expressions and gestures as he gives
his opinion of other people driving on the road.  Also, out in the
country the driver usually knows everyone he picks up, so if you know a
little Greek you can pick up all the local gossip by listening to their
conversations.

   I have to say that schoolchildren on Greek buses seem remarkably well
behaved.  They can be noisy, but you don't see the sort of rowdiness you
do on American buses full of teenagers.

   My only experience with Greek railroads was on the short
Pirgos-Olympia spur line -- an indescribably delightful sort of
glorified trolley.  Anyone going to that area shouldn't miss it.  
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: iptsiant@techfak.uni-bielefeld.de (Panagiotis Tsiantopoulos)
Subject: Re: Chicken, Turkeys, and the exposure of MUTLU.EXE
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 14:04:40 GMT
Organization: Universitaet Bielefeld, Technische Fakultaet.

In article <199211151948.AA07671@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com>, c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos) writes:
|> # 
|> # Megallh trella. Basika auto to mhnhma einai dolwma na dw an o fterwtos 
|> # filos mou einai teleiws automatos h to kanei me to xeri. 

Kala, oti o anthropos autos einai malakas, den chreiazetai na to apodikseis!!
To kserei olos o kosmos!!


|> # An dhte apanthsh
|> # paei na pei oti psaxnei gia lekseis kleidia (na re orologia :-)). 
|> # 
|> # Spiros
|> # --
|> # Spiros Triantafyllopoulos                    "I don't want to make money,
|> # c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com                 I just want to read News..."


-- 
Panos Tsiantopoulos.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: vassos@db.toronto.edu (Vassos Hadzilacos)
Subject: Re: Trip to Skopje, 9/92
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Toronto
Date: 19 Nov 92 22:15:09 GMT

In article <1992Nov16.083646.71010@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu> dk0a@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (DIMITRIOS KOUVATSOS) writes:

> Ms. Gazis-Sax is of course free to express whatever opinions she wishes. But
> she would do us Greeks a favor if she at least stopped bragging about her
> Greek ancestry! It is disingenuous, to say the least - when she has betrayed
> it and actively propagates blatant historical revisionism with the aim of
> harming Greek interests.
> 
> Dimitris Kouvatsos

"Us Greeks" includes at least this one Greek who hopes that Ms. Gazis-Sax
will continue to feel proud of her ancestry, who does not find that the
publication of her impressions constitutes betrayal of Greece, who finds
ludicrous the notion that she has the aim of harming Greek interests, and
who resents it when others try to appropriate patriotism in his name.

--Vassos Hadzilacos
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Subject: Re: Scopjian Flag
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 22:53:16 GMT

cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear) writes:

>From article <Bxtvx2.BBp@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, by varnavas@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (varnavas constantine):
>> 
>> The majority of historians don't agree with you on this.  Speculations
>> that the Macedonians were not Greeks have been refuted in numerous occasions
>> on this forum and I am not going to repeat them now. 


>I can only think of one historian who takes this position without seeing
>problems and he has moved to it recently.  I recommend Borza's In the
>Shadow of Olympus which has a copious bibliography and a review of it in
>the latest American Journal of Philology.  I have yet to see one cogent
>argument to suggest that the ancient Macedonians were Greek. 

 Aaah, Prof. E. Borza of Pen. State Univ.  A "historian" who is trying to
 prove that ancient Macedonians were not Greeks.  Perhaps, he has realized
 that this is the only way to become famous, but his "scientific" arguments
 are a unique collection of garbage.  His is just a person who is desparetly
 trying to receive attention.  Personally, I'm surprized that this person
 is a Professor; he could well be a high school teacher, and that's all.
 Beyond the scientific arguments, there is also a question about the
 ethics of this person.

 In a personal discussion with him, he mentioned other interesting things,
 such as about a Lacedaemonian language etc.  Note however, that even this
 highly "recommended" person says that Macedones were Hellenized.  NOBADY
 can ever present any arguments for the contrary. 

 Even in the extreme case that ancient Macedones were non-Greeks who were
 Hellenized, this still supports the arguments of Greeks.  You cannot
 trace people 100,000 years back, and if you could do that you would have
 started with Eve and Adam (or whatever you believe), and the discussion 
 would look silly.

>>>The purpose of the sun-burst in its antique setting remains
>>>unclear and its design isn't unique by the way, it can be found on Greek
>>>coins predating the rise of Macedonia and on vases painted in early

  According to Prof. Borza, it is very clear that this star was the emblem
  of the ancient Macedones.  

>Andy


 Panos Tamamidis
From: c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: re: travel in Greece
Date: 16 Nov 1992 09:28:33 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

jyc@leo.Stanford.EDU (Jon Corelis) writes:

>   A good way to keep entertained is to sit near the driver -- often you
> can learn lots of colorful Greek expressions and gestures as he gives
> his opinion of other people driving on the road.  Also, out in the
> country the driver usually knows everyone he picks up, so if you know a
> little Greek you can pick up all the local gossip by listening to their
> conversations.

One of the more unforgettable trips was in the late 70's, Pyrgos to Patras.
The distance was around 100Km and the driver made it in 1 hour, at 100 km/h.
We had made the mistake of sitting up front, close to the driver. The driver
was too busy trying to impress a late-30's-early-40's-heavy-makeup lady,
and basically drove without any concern for others. He proceeded to drive
at least 2 cars off the road and crash onto a VW bug in the Patras
terminal (the bug was parked in his spot and he proceeded to push it off).

It was so hilarious listening to the pleas of the crowd in the back 
begging the driver to slow down; he would not, of course :-). At any rate,
we arrived safe, but the trip, and the syrup-ladden conversations of the
driver with the lady were straight out of this world! 

>    I have to say that schoolchildren on Greek buses seem remarkably well
> behaved.  They can be noisy, but you don't see the sort of rowdiness you
> do on American buses full of teenagers.

Pleeez. Try taking a bus from Omonoia/Rigillis or Acadimia sq. right 
at 10:15 pm, when all the frontistiria (college exam prep cram schools)
(how's that for terminology :-)) let the crowds go. 

>   My only experience with Greek railroads was on the short
> Pirgos-Olympia spur line -- an indescribably delightful sort of
> glorified trolley.  Anyone going to that area shouldn't miss it.  

You should try the Odontotos (tooth-geared train) going from Diakofto
(Right before Aigio in Peloponnesos) and my (adopted) home town of
Kalavrita.  The train ride is around 20 km but it goes into some
pretty serious inclines/declines where teeth are used. The view is
STUNNING. I've done the trip uncountable times and I'm still amazed by
it. Waterfalls, lots of trees, tunnels and rail pretty much carved
on rock. Try to make the trip during winter, it's simply spectacular.

The Odontotos rides on what must be 60-70 cm wide rail, and its
interior cabin (two cars and a diesel engine) is no bigger than a commuter
plane. But it has worked uninterrupted for decades.

Spiros (stuck in the mountain-less Midwest)
--
Spiros Triantafyllopoulos                    "I don't want to make money,
c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com                 I just want to read News..."

Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: ls1@cec1.wustl.edu (Lambros Skartsis)
Subject: Re: Disappointment
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis MO
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 21:33:12 GMT


In article <scg.722212441@cs.wisc.edu>, scg@bashan.cs.wisc.edu ( Scg) writes:

> Well, now that I've got that unpleasant bit out of the way I'd like to pose
> some questions.  First of all, I've noticed that there are almost all males
> that post to the list, I am curious about how you guys view the role of women
> in your society?  (Note:  I am not a feminist so don't read too much into my
> question.)  I have been told by a number of people that I won't be happy in
> Greece because I will lose a lot of my freedom.  I don't really agree with
> that but I would like to hear your responses.  Next, I would like to ask
> if there are any Greek women on the list?  If so, could you please respond to
> this from your own point of view?

>
> Deborah Economidis
>

Dear Deborah,
this is a ... sensitive issue, and one has to be tactful, but I have to
stress it to you:

apparently you have been talking with greek-americans!

these people are wonderful and hard working (I wish greek-greeks would
be a bit more like them) but they have in mind Greece of the 1920's ; most
of them have hardly been in Greece for decades... You won't believe what
kinds of similar "information" about Greece I have heard to have been  given  
to American friends of mine by the same source!

to put it simply now, if it helps:
- the overwhelming majority of students in Engineering, Math. etc. are
male; these are the ones that go often abroad for grad. studies, etc. - and
thus contribute to the net!
- the overwhelming majority of students in humanities, classics, etc. are
female.

Overall, in Universities (speaking, always, about Greece) females slightly
outnumber males (I think something like 52 to 48%).

Women, in Greece, are officially more "equal to the men" than in U.S. and
most Western European countries (i.e., salary ratio, percentage employmet,
etc.). This was enhanced during the socialist rule during the past
decade [one of the very few good things those crooks did!].

In everyday life: well, in some villages, especially some old people
 still have the ... good old approach towards women. In cities and
today's society in general I don't think you'll notice any difference
from what you're familiar with - apart from some more ... matcho approach/
concept-of-what-is-supposed-to-be-cool of the males!!!

If this helps, my girlfriend is American; she has been in Greece twice
and has stayed ~2 months in total. From her point of view she claimed she could
perfectly live there; and indeed she might !!!....

Regards,
L. Skartsis

Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe