HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 14 Aug 1992 16:09:34 EDT
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      For Sun 16 Aug (and correction for 15 Aug)
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET, BSTUDY-L@UTARLVM1.BITNET,
              IVCF-L@UBVM.BITNET

A few hours ago, when posting the propers for Saturday 16 August,
the Commemoration of Mary the Virgin Mother, I sleepily omitted the
Prayer for the Day. It follows.

PRAYER
   Almighty God, who hast chosen the blessed Virgin Mary to be the
   mother of thine incarnate Son: Grant that we who have been
   redeemed by his blood may share with her the glory of thine
   eternal kingdom, through the same Jesus Christ our Lord, who
   liveth and reigneth with thee and the Holy Ghost ever, one God,
   world without end.

     ==========================================================

FOR SUNDAY 16 AUGUST 1992

READING: Jeremiah 23:23-29
 (The LORD speaks against false prophets who make idle predictions
on the basis of their dreams.)

PSALM 82
 (The LORD rebukes corrupt rulers and magistrates, who abuse the
power that God has entrusted to them.)

EPISTLE: Hebrews 12:1-14
 (Let us be firm in the faith, ready to suffer for it if need be,
remembering the example of Our Lord Jesus Christ, and of Abraham and
other heroes of faith.  Remember that God, like a loving father,
chastises us for our good.

THE HOLY GOSPEL: Luke 12:49-56
 (Jesus said: "I bring not peace but division. Families will quarrel
because of me")

PRAYER
   Almighty God, who hast given thine only Son to be unto us
   both a sacrifice for sin and also an example of godly life:
   Give us grace that we may always most thankfully receive
   that his inestimable benefit, and also daily endeavor
   ourselves to follow the blessed steps of his most holy life;
   through the same thy Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who liveth
   and reigneth with thee and the Holy Spirit, one God, for
   ever and ever.
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Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 14:01:00 EDT
From:         Richard.Campbell@MVS.UDEL.EDU
Subject:      Re>Homosexuality
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU

    Leo-- You may not be a "whiz with words," but I couldn't have said it
better myself!!!     Rich
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Date:         Sat, 22 Aug 1992 14:23:07 EST
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      Re: This won't win me any friends, but...
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU
              21, 92 11:56 am

>
>From:   Stuart T Oliver
>Kerry,I know you said you wouldn't post anymore on these things, but would you
>please provide scripture references to the points you brought out in "this
>won't win me any friends, but...".  Citing the scriptures as your authority
>for the things you said carries much more weight than just your words alone.
>Thanks a lot          -Stuart Oliver, from the home of Texas A&M University
>
>

Dear Stuart,

Straight scripture quoting will not acheieve very much because a lot of
the Roman Catholic Demoninations droctrines are based on incorrect
interpretation of scritpure.
They also are very much guilty of basing complete doctrines on only one
peice of scripture (take Pergatory, which is not even based on a
cannonical book, but on one of the apocraphical books)...

Roman catholics must bend scripture to meet their interpretation of
doctrine, for example the case of Mary being a Virgin after Jesus plainly
contradicts the bible where it points out that Jesus had many siblings, one
called Judas (no not Iscaroit). What the RCC will do is try to bend scripture
and tell is that they must be cousins and not brothers! Why must they
be cousins?? Easy, because it contradicts the Word of God...
If the Doctrine contradicts the word of God, then the RCC will throw out
the word, because the Word is of less importance to them than it is to
most christians.. (take Brad Kaisers comments that the Church is the holder
of truth, not the Bible, not that when Brad means 'Church' he means
the Roman Catholic Demonination, not the true universal body of Christ)..

A good test to ask any church, whether that be RCC or AOG or anything is
to ask them to back up their doctrine with MANY scripture verses, and to
find out if the intepretation that they are bringing is out of context...




---------------------+-------------+-----------------------------------------
Ian Williams         |    _--_|\   |      Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems       |   /      \  |	  Phone	  : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia  |   \_.--*_/  |
                     |         v   |
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Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 12:47:27 CDT
From:         Jesse Irwin Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Dear Rome : prove it

Dear all on the net ;

I have some epistemological queries for those of the Roman Catholic genre.
These are serious queries ... not flames.
So, if you don't like my questions, PLEASE don't "flame" me  :->

First, the Council of Trent condemns anyone anathema who denys the tenants
of Catholic, OPENLY.  This means the person disagreeing is condemned to Hell.
How is this true?

Second, Catholic tradition says that Mary was a virgin perpetually.
Where in Scripture does it say this?  If only a tradition, HOW is that
equal in authority with the Bible?

Third, how do you Catholics reconcile the idea that anyone who is not a
Catholic is condemned to Hell for not being Catholic?
The Council of Trent states this (and I will verify this if asked) and so
did my copy of the Baltimore Catachism.

Fourth, how does Rome answer for preaching "infused" righteousness instead of
imputed righteousness, in light of the fact that Divine righteousness is a
NON-TRANSFERRABLE trait? In other words, how can we become inherently
righteous without becoming part of the Triune Godhead?... but this is what
Rome tacitly preaches.


Lastly, the simple epistemological question : "How do you guys KNOW that
what you guys believe on the above is NECESSARILY true from an authoritative
source ... i.e., the Bible in exegetical context?"





Jesse Carnes
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Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 15:15:00 EDT
From:         Richard.Campbell@MVS.UDEL.EDU
Subject:      Re: Teens, condoms, etc.
X-To:         Christia%ASUACAD.BITNET@udelvm.udel.edu

> I don't think distributing condoms would have prevented anything.
> IMO, distributing condoms, or my buying them for him, would say, go
> ahead and do what you want to do, I think it's okay.  Well, I
> don't think it's okay and nothing should be done to encourage
> sex outside of marriage.  Yes, okay, protection from disease.
> Bah humbug.  Do teenagers really think about that?  They need to
> have the values instilled in them.  The only safe protection is
> abstinence.  Okay, so some kids don't get this message.  TV and

  Did you see Barbara Bush's speech last night?  She advocated abstinence
right on prime time TV!  (What is this world coming to?)
Also, Marilyn Quayle  said not everyone in the baby boomer generation dropped
out, took drugs, or joined in the sexual revolution.
(Not everyone inhaled.....)
 I was very impressed with Marilyn, BTW.  And with Barbara.


> Okay, enough from an old windbag.  Just how come things that used

> to be taboo are now okay?  Do God's laws change with social
> conditions?
No, but apparently social conditions change people's willingness to follow
God's laws.  Not to mention our sin nature.....   Either that or it's more in
the open now.  We're basically creatures of peer pressure.
> Carol Nemec
> YA67@FERRIS

 Rich
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Sun, 16 Aug 1992 23:18:34 -0600
From:         Glennerd Skynard <S05152@DOC.FLC.COLORADO.EDU>
Subject:      New age movement and environmentalism

Dear Zane:

     Thanks for the post, I think you are absolutely right.
I have been praying for the people who practice these things
for a long time, and I hope that some day I am going to be
lucky enough to see an impact.  I would dearly love to see
the crystals become crosses.  Hopefully I will be able to
use some of the things that you shared with me with those
who subscribe to the things I have previously described.
Let's all be praying that we can...

                         God Bless,



                        Glennerd :-)
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Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 15:34:27 EST
From:         Ian Williams <iwilliam@AU.ORACLE.COM>
Subject:      Re: update
X-To:         CHRISTIA@ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU
              Tennant" at Aug 20, 92 11:46 am

Bernice,

In all things let His will be done...

Pray that, and you will be praying in accordance with his will..
If you are open to praying in the Spirit, then do so...



---------------------+-------------+-----------------------------------------
Ian Williams         |    _--_|\   |      Internet: iwilliam@au.oracle.com
Oracle Systems       |   /      \  |	  Phone	  : +61 8 239 3900
Adelaide, Australia  |   \_.--*_/  |
                     |         v   |
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 21 Aug 1992 11:14:39 EST
From:         Kerry Stephenson <KSTE@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject:      This won't win me any friends, but...

Fellow CHRISTIAns:

I know this will be taken as Catholic-bashing.  I know this isn't
tolerant.  But I cannot stand by and remain silent.  The Virgin
Mary, is indeed, a fine example of submission to the will of God.
She is worthy of our respect, our love, and our gratitude.  But
I really must remind us all of the following:

You can *not* get others out of Hell.
Jesus does *not* want us to follow Mary *and* Him; He wants us to
   follow Him *alone*.
Following Mary will *not* gain you salvation.
Dedicating one's self to Mary's heart will *not* gain you salvation.
Dedicating one's children to Mary is *not* a command of God.

Christ's command is CLEAR.  He, and He *alone* is the One who
   intercedes.  He, and He *alone* is the One we must follow.
If we follow after "Jesus AND [anyone, anything, any idea, any
   person, any saint, any concept, any desire, *anything*], we are in
   the sin of idolatry, a sin which God considers an abomination, even
   to the point of making its prohibition the FIRST commandment
   of the specific commandments.
Thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thy heart, mind, and strength,
    and thy neighbor as thyself.  (There is no mention of Mary).  This
    is the whole of the law.
Praying to anyone but God through Christ is idolatry.

*He* loves us, *He* died for our sin, *He* intercedes for us, *He*
    cleanses us with His blood, *He* calls us to repentence, *He*
    forgives us, *He* will return, and *He* will judge.  We will
    reign with *Him,* in *Him,* and for *Him*.

Our duty is love *Him* serve *Him* and honor *Him* alone.

God help us if we do otherwise.

I will say no more on this subject.

Love, In the Name of Christ, and Christ alone,

                            --Kerry
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Date:         Fri, 14 Aug 1992 05:55:41 CDT
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      To James Kiefer : Church membership

Dear James Kiefer ;

No, Tom Brewer, myself, and Dan Graham are not members of this group
you mentioned.
Nee was a quasi-mystic and I am a bit concerned over some of his beliefs.
Tom Brewer and I go to a Calvinistic independent non-denom. church.
Dan Graham goes to a Calvinistic church of what flavour I am uncertain.




Jesse Carnes
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Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1992 15:50:28 CDT
From:         Carol Slingo <slingo@CASBAH.ACNS.NWU.EDU>
Subject:      Re: no answer required!
              Aug 18, 92 12:03 pm

Careful of that stomach.  (Be sure not to answer this!)

>
> I'm really behind in my mail.  If you're expecting a private reply from
> me, please be patient.  I'll try to answer some mail tonight.
>
> Thanks,
> Madge McBurney
>
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Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1992 08:48:41 EDT
From:         Bernice Tennant <U1A9A@WVNVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Family values, a euphemism?

Darren,

I can see how homosexual Christians would be able to justify their actions as
Christians and Christ forgiving our sins but how do they remaining a
Homosexual and being a Christian when God considers the homosexual act an
abomination?  God hates all sin  and we all sin at one time or another, but
we are not to accept a sinful lifestyle just because we can be forgiven. We
don't have to.  Christ died so that we could be forgiven and through his act
of sacrifice he gave us a link to God that gives us power over a sinful
lifestylethat we may overcome it.  If we remain in a sinful lifestyle (and
anyone that studies the bible knows that a man with man or woman with woman
sexual relationship is sinful), after we receive Christ as our savior,then
we are only fooling ourselves because Christ is not in us.  The Spirit of
Christ could not live in a vessel where acts occur by choice that are an
abomination to God.  I was an alcoholic.  I am no longer an alcoholic.  I
know that God took that desire away from me because I desired healing and
wanted to follow CHrist.  If I had not believed in the power ofChrist to
take this terrible obsession away, I would likely be lost.  I could not do it
on my own.  I did not want to.  I had myself in an endless loop until I asked
Christ back into my life and asked him to forgive me and help me.  Even though
I knew he could save me, I was still amazed at the terrific power of Christ.  I
had heard that once you are addicted you can never touch any alcohol again.  I
have since had an occasional drink but the desire to use it as an escape is
gone.  Satan has tried to make be believe when I am stressed at times that I
need the mindless stupor that alcohol can give me, but when I start to drink,
I know my savior is with me and this desire leaves me before it can destroy
me.  Satan cannot have anymore what now belongs to Christ.  Scripture tells us
that nothing is impossible for God.  If Christ is in you then you are no longer
an alcoholic or a homosexual or a liar or a thief.  It will still tempt you but
Jesus will help you through it.  But it must be in your heart to believe it.
You cannot serve two masters and Satan is the master over all that God hates.
I have other temptations to battle enough believe me and sometimes I fail, but
I do not have to accept these failures as just me and how I am because I have
Christ and he can take me and make me new.  The temptations will never go away,
but then neither will Christ.
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Date:         Wed, 12 Aug 1992 09:36:00 -0400
From:         Lora Harris <LHARRIS@UPEI.CA>
Subject:      Q: Origin of the term "mass".

Trivia question - where did the term "mass" for the service including
communion/Lord's Supper/eucharist come from?  A friend was asking, and so far
has had three people give her the same answer with the disclaimer that they
weren't sure of it.
                                        -Lora
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Date:         Tue, 18 Aug 1992 22:42:24 EDT
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From:         Angela Zimmerman <AMZIMM01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Homosexuality

Item Retrieval Assistant, DADS
Phone: 588-6757
Lora,

Hello to you too!  I had to set nomail for a long time because I got a new
job (at the same place, just more responsibility now) and had to set nomail
for quite some time.  I just recently was able to get back on here, and
with the fall semester approaching, I'm not how sure this is going to last,
but I'll try to stay as long as possible!

Your views on homosexuality seem to be the minority on this list.  Many
think (from my observations) that just having the feelings is a sin.  I
agree with you that having the feelings themselves is not sinful or even
"wrong".  I think having "lustful" feelings are a normal part of life.  I
suppose "monster" was a strong term to use, but that's the impression I've
been getting, but like Ian said, I suppose I was putting words into everyone's
mouths and for that I apologize.  I was getting upset at everyone seemingly
condeming homosexuals for their feelings, since I have many homosexual
friends and I don't think they're deserving of such attitudes.  I also
don't believe their sinners.  10% of all populations of all species are
homosexual.  It's as natural as being heterosexual, IMHO, since *all*
species have homosexuals among them.  Would God (assuming God exists) make
homosexuals in all species if it wasn't "natural"?
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Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1992 08:15:33 CDT
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Aquinas versus Scrptures

Dear Peter Gogolek et al. ;

I may have been misunderstood.
I was not NECESSARILY stating an incongruency between Aquinas and Scripture,
I was only saying that only Scripture is AUTHORITATIVE.
Not having studied Aquinas at length, my opinion of his theology is suspended
to a degree until I get more data.



Jesse Carnes
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Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1992 12:33:19 CDT
From:         Jesse Carnes <NOTJIC@LSUVM.BITNET>
Subject:      Do we respect Beliefs?

To Mark Drake et al. ;

Sounds like I am contradicting myself ... does it not?
Well, what we have here is two perspectives ... the Divine and the Human.
From the Divine perspective, the Lord sees us according whether we have or
have not faith in Christ.  Thus, what you believe indicates what YOU are at
the time.

From the human perspective, we dychotomize in that we are told to respect
the people who hold erroneous beliefs, without agreeing to their beliefs.
Since, we are not Divine, we cannot in a judicial sense, hold people
eternally accountable for the beliefs.  However, God can and does.
He often requires of US things that do not apply to Himself.
He makes the rules and He is not accountable to anyone (i.e., responsible).

By the way, when I use the word, "respect" I mean "to treat fairly and kindly."




Jesse Carnes
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Date:         Thu, 20 Aug 1992 08:55:00 EDT
From:         "Carl A. Lahetta" <U952020@RUTADMIN.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Re>Homosexuality

> Date:         Wed, 19 Aug 1992 14:34:11 EDT
> From:         Leo W <Leo_W@QM.CIRCA.UFL.EDU>
> Subject:      Re>Homosexuality
>
> Carl wrote: "One point that I cannot understand though is how a Christian can
> be a celibate homosexual."
>
> My 10 years old son is a Christian celebate homosexual.  He loves me, his
> father, very much.  We hug and kiss each other daily.  He has a deep need for
> same-sex love and I am the God-ordained source for this love.  If our
> homosexual relationship continues normally, he will continue to accept my love
,
> his same-sex love needs will be met by his father, he will fully identify
> himself with my gender, and he will become heterosexual.

  Leo, having love for one's father is not homosexual.  Homosexuality is when
  one lusts after someone of the same sex and engages in sexual acts.  I am
  sure that your son does not lust after your body.

> It is important to keep in mind that every heterosexual is an ex-homosexual.
>
> For more information, I strongly suggest reading Dr. Moberly's book entitled
> "Psychogenesis."

  Don't be taken in by this type of book.  If it's purpose is to teach that
  every heterosexual is an ex-homosexual then I would not read it.  What this
  book is teaching is false and an attempt by the homosexual movement to
  redefine homosexuality.  This is an attempt to make everyone that is not
  a homosexual "think" that they are to some degree or once were homosexual.
  Having love for one's father or a male friend is not homosexual.  Once
  again homosexuality is when a male sexually lusts for another male and
  engages in sexual acts.

  If I used the same tactics that this book uses I am sure that I could
  convince you that your wife is a prostitute.

> Yours in Christ Jesus,
> Leo

Carl----------+
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Date:         Thu, 13 Aug 1992 11:40:00 CDT
From:         Sieg A U R I C H <B882SA@UTARLG.UTA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Do YOU want a traditional family? YES!!!
X-To:         CHRISTIA%ASUACAD.BITNET@ricevm1.rice.edu

Amen to your response!  I couldnt have put it any better.  I pray that
your time in Houston will be profitable to you.

In & For HIS Servic,

Sieg
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Date:         Mon, 17 Aug 1992 14:56:46 CDT
Reply-To:     bradk%isdgsm@rtsg.mot.com
From:         Brad Kaiser <bradk%isdgsm@RTSG.MOT.COM>
Subject:      Re: Bible - Part 2
X-To:         CHRISTIA%ASUVM.INRE.ASU.EDU@motgate.mot.com

Jesse Carnes writes:

>> Third, the Lord has stated that all Scripture was from Him (2 Tim 3).
>> Did He lie?  Is He inconsistent? Is it illogical as the Scriptures
>> themselves define illogic?  If all of these answers are "NO", thenthe
>> Word of God is true, valid, consistent, based upon its own stated and
>> consistent logic.

What you seem to be saying is that whatever is consistent, true (by
your own experience?), and claims divine inspiration is inspired.

With that in mind, what would you say about the inspired status
of the following texts:

   The Q'uran
   The Book of Mormon
   Mary Baker Eddy's "Science and Health, with key to the Scriptures"

What do you have to assure yourself that these are not inspired, and
the Bible is?

And what about a book which seems to be logically consistent, and
logically "proves" that Divine inspiration is a non sequitur; that is,
that God does not exist?

>> This is where we begin.

By 'we', though, you mean Protestant Christians.  Christians of other
faith traditions have a much different way of concluding that
Scripture is inspired; one which, IMO, rests upon a much firmer
logical foundation.

(For details, see Karl Keating's "Catholicism and Fundamentalism" and
Fr. William Most's "Catholic Apologetics Today", among others.)

Brad Kaiser
(bradk%isdgsm@rtsg.mot.com)

    Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture
    that is a matter of personal interpretation ...
                -- 2 Pt 1:20
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