HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: "alexander inglis" <alexander.inglis@canrem.com>
Subject: wagner and jews?
Reply-To: "alexander inglis" <alexander.inglis@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: rec
Date: 16 Dec 92 11:21:19 EST

JR>Richard Strauss is another matter; I've long understood that he was a
  >paid-up member of the Nazi party.

You could be right re: R Strauss's genuine Nazi leanings. But let's not
forget he turned 80 in 1944 (in fact there is an 80th birthday
celebration performance of Ariadne auf Naxos conducted by Karl Boehm
that has been on DGG from time to time). I'm not sure how may people of
his age would not be willing to turn a blind eye to the politics of the
day and be able to deny to themselves that horrors werre occurring.

I remain baffled how ANYONE can continue to exist in place such as a
warzone -- but people do. Why would anyone continue to live in Beirut,
for example? Add Strauss's prestige and pampering by local officials and
it must have been very difficult to find a way out.

Alexander Inglis  |  InterNet: alexander.inglis@canrem.com
Toronto,  Canada  |  CompuServe: 70307,20     BIX: ainglis
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: hcresnic@quads.uchicago.edu (hugh carney resnick)
Subject: Re: The "Simpsons" Trio
Reply-To: hcresnic@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 23:13:57 GMT

In article <4231@litchi.bbn.com> cbarber@bbn.com (Chris Barber) writes:
>
>Has anyone else noticed that the theme to "The Simpsons" by Danny Elfman
>bears a strong resemblance to the principal theme of the last movement of
>Brahms trio Op. 87 in C major for violin, cello and piano?  I propose that
>we should now refer to this trio as the "Simpsons Trio".  This has a precedent
>in Mozart's "Elvira Madigan Concerto"....
_______

Yes, but if we do that, then we will have to rename everything that Danny
Elfman ever did as a film-scorer, he being even more derivative than John
Williams.

hugh

-- 
___________________________________________________________________
	  Hugh C. Resnick (hcresnic@midway.uchicago.edu)
       Wee fish ewe a mare egrets moose panda hippo gnu deer
___________________________________________________________________
From: fernande@cps.msu.edu (Jose Roberto Fernandez)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Greatest living conductors
Date: 17 Dec 92 16:38:48 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, Michigan State University
Originator: fernande@atlantic.cps.msu.edu

Inspired by the recent thread about greatest living pianists, I
propose another thread on the "greatest living conductors."  So,
who do you think are the greatest living (or recently died) 
conductors?  I nominate the following for the top tier:

*Karajan, Solti, Giulini, and *Bernstein
(additional possibilities being Abbado, Haitink, and Maazel)
(*-died recently)
-- 
Jose Roberto Fernandez
fernande@cps.msu.edu
Computer Science
Mich. St. Univ.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: tait@cs.columbia.edu (Carl Tait)
Subject: Re: Schirmer, Chopin, Mikuli, and Horowitz...
Organization: Columbia University Department of Computer Science
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 08:34:57 GMT

In article <71883@cup.portal.com> Bill_P_Pearce@cup.portal.com writes:
>There are a number of Chopin editions, one of the best being
>the Polish Chopin Institute edition [...]

Just a point of clarification: Bill and I are recommending the same
edition (good taste, Bill).  The "Paderewski Edition" goes by several
names: Paderewski, Fryderyk Chopin Institute, Polish Music Publications,
and even PWM (Polskie Wydawnictwo Muzyczne).  They're all the same thing.
The editors are Paderewski, Bronarski, and Turczynski.

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: pdorman@itsmail1.hamilton.edu (Peter Dorman)
Subject: Re: The worst (best) composer in a millenium
Organization: Hamilton College - Clinton, NY
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 19:47:27 GMT

Let me put in a good word for Messiaen's Catalogue d'Oiseaux.  This 
is the best, as well as most rigorous, "green" music I have heard.  
Unlike the new age stuff, Messiaen's environmental sounds (mostly 
bird calls, of course) are highly specific and properly researched, 
and above all not prettified.  Yet they are encased in a wonderful 
impressionistic musical environmental.  The whole effect is 
simultaneously bracing and engaging--like nature itself.  I am much 
impressed with the recent set by Peter Hill on Unicorn; the pianism 
alone should send people out after this stuff.

Peter Dorman
Hamilton College
Clinton, NY 13323
pdorman@hamilton.edu

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: ujwb@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Jeff Beer)
Subject: Re: Bartok in "The Shining" (was Bela Bartok info.)
Organization: Educational Computing Network
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 22:02:00 GMT

In article <1992Dec15.203657.20097@viewlogic.com> brad@buck.viewlogic.com (Bradford Kellogg) writes:
>
>In article <92350.134032MLH119@psuvm.psu.edu>, <MLH119@psuvm.psu.edu> writes:
>|> Could anyone tell me what the name of the piece of Bartok's music that was
>|> used in the soundtrack to the movie, The Shining.
>|> Any information would be greatly appreciated.
>|> 
>|> Michael Hock --- MLH119 at PSUVM
>
>Seems to me they used some excerpts from a piece with a title something
>like: Music for orchestra, piano, and celeste

Yes, and it sounds like Kubrik or whoever did the screenplay wrote that
to fit the phrasing of the music exactly.  The whole scene follows the
emotion of the melody in the most exact way.  This is the scene between
the boy and Nicholson where Jack says he will never hurt the boy.

I am not sure, but there might be some other Bartok pieces elswhere in
the movie.

Jeff
From: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: The worst composer in a millenium
Date: 15 Dec 92 20:42:40 GMT
Reply-To: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Jack Campin)
Organization: COMANDOS Project, Glesga Yoonie

diarmuid@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Diarmuid Pigott) wrote:
> Thoroughly recommended is the Ondes Martinot movement in the 7-stars
> symphony by Koechlin, a gentle and soothing work about as different as it
> is possible to be from the majestic Turangalila...

Has "Seven Stars" ever been recorded?  Which star gets the Ondes Martinot?
Joan Crawford?

Somehow I'm rather glad Koechlin pre-empted this idea in the 1930s.  I
*really* wouldn't want to hear the Arnie Schwarzenegger or Christian Slater
movements of a modern equivalent.

-- 
--  Jack Campin    room G092, Computing Science Department, Glasgow University,
17 Lilybank Gardens, Glasgow G12 8RZ, Scotland   TEL: 041 339 8855 x6854 (work)
INTERNET: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk or via nsfnet-relay.ac.uk    FAX: 041 330 4913
BANG!net: via mcsun and uknet     BITNET: via UKACRL    UUCP: jack@glasgow.uucp
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: jcm2w@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (John Clarke Mccanless)
Subject: Re: Mahler novice
Organization: University of Virginia
Distribution: rec
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 03:03:05 GMT

In article <1gi1bhINN8en@corax.udac.uu.se> mgn@csd.uu.se (Magnus Nordin) writes:
>I'm curious about Mahler and have decided to start listening to his
>symphonies. My question is: which symphonies to buy and which
>conductor(s)?
>
>Should I buy a complete cycle or some "basic" subset of the
>symphonies?  
>
>In the cycle case: Which cycle? I've read good things about the
>Kubelik cycle on DG. This box packs all the symphonies into only 10
>CDs (I think Karajan's is 15 CDs) which is an economical plus. 
>
>The subset case: Which symphonies to begin with? Is there a typical or
>"a must" set? Which recordings? Simon Rattle (no complete cycle yet, I
>believe) has done very well with what he's recorded so far according
>to the press I've seen. 
>
>All recommendations gratefully welcomed.

Hahahahahaha!!! I beat Deryk Barker to the punch!! =-)
Actually, I encourage D.B. to post, since I believe he's forgotten
more about Mahler than I will ever know..But here's some recordings
*I* like:
1st: His most easily likable, though many still dislike the ending.
You may want to start here.  I like the Solti/Chicago version, but
I speak as a brass player who's awed by the CSO.

2nd: Glorious.  A rich non-musical New York financier heard it and
dedicated his spare time to learning to conduct it (Gilbert Kaplan - 
avoid this recording as you would the plague, however).  I lik
the CSO under Abbado, and the recent Bernstein/NYPO.

3rd: Horrendously long and utterly magnificent.  You can't go wrong
with Horenstein/LSO or Bernstein/NYPO (again, the recent one).

That should give you something to chew on.  If you have the money,
a boxed set might be in order, but a consistent Mahler cycle defies
the finest conductors - there's bound to be a dog or two in there.
Since Mahler's symphonies can (and have) been regarded as one long
work, you'll want to buy the rest eventually if you like what you've
heard at all.  What can I say - people who love Mahler generally
have multiple recordings of every work, but rarely could a subset
of those be combined to make a boxed set, so it's difficult to advise.

Hope this helped. =-)

-- 
John C. McCanless				jcm2w@virginia.edu

"Genius!  Pure, unadulterated, GENIUS!!"  - Wile E. Coyote

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker)
Subject: Re: wagner in israel (a bit l
Organization: Camosun College, Victoria B.C, Canada
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Distribution: rec
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 01:26:56 GMT

alexander.inglis@canrem.com ("alexander inglis") writes:
: MP>  Last thing: Israel's sole classical music radio station (Kol-HaMusika)
:   >still does not broadcast orchestral pieces conducted by Herbert von Karajan.
:   >There is no law against that, but since he was a member of the Nazi party,
:   >the editors feel (I shall state it gently) quite inapproriate to put his dis
:   >on the air. They DO broudcast Furtwaengler, Boehm and other conductors who w
:   >reported to be slightly resentful agains Jews.
: 
: Poor Furtwaengler! His uncompromising support of Jews in Germany before
: and during WWII is so well documented yet he remains tarred by Guilt by
: Association. Furtwaengler is often thought of as THE Nazi conductor yet
: he resigned ALL his posts in 1934 in direct, public protest of the Nazi
: regime. He freelanced till the end of his life, resuming duties in
: Berlin after the war as the orchestra's leader. Furtwaengler had a
: fierce belief in the importance to the world of German music, and German
: culture in general. He believed, ABOVE ALL, that art was NOT
political.

Indeed Furtwaengler did all he could to keep Jews in his orchestras;
he also wrote glowing recommendations for just about emigrating Jewish
musician. Furtwaengler had many Jewish friends who urged him to stay
in Germany and do what he could to maintain some sort of uncorrupted
culture, Arnold Schoenberg and Max Rheinhardt inter alia.

fter the war, when Furtwaengler's denazification was taking forever,
Yehudi Menuhin got directly involved in attempting to speed things up;
before he spoke on WF"s behalf he inveestigated his behaviour during
the Third Reich, speaking to many people who had left Germany and who
had stayed. He concluded that WF was totally innocent of any
involvement with the regime.

Naive he may have been, mendacious he certainly was not. And he
refused point blank, with only one small exception, to conduct in the
occupied territories, which is more than many another German artist
(Boehm and Krauss to name but two) did.

He *has* been given a bum rap, especially in N America, where there
was a mass protest when he was about to be offered the chief
conductor's post at the Chicago SO in 1947 (I think). Although the
board, eventually, stood firm against this blackmail, Furtwaengler
withdraw in order to save them more embarrassment. He never conducted
in N America after the war; someth{ing for which many lesser
musicians, who had achieved fame in the US during the war, were
probably grateful for.

--
Real:  Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept., Camosun College, Victoria B.C.
Email: (dbarker@spang.camosun.bc.ca)
Phone: +1 604 370 4452
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: acid+@cs.cmu.edu (Christopher Colby)
Subject: Re: 78s and quick tempos
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Distribution: rec
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 16:54:48 GMT

In article <1992Dec13.4216.25294@dosgate> "alexander inglis" <alexander.inglis@canrem.com> writes:
>Can you comment a little on the Rhakmaninov? I have heard much of this
>on LP, but it's been a while. Are the CD transfers lifelike (given
>their age)?

I'd be glad to comment on it once I get a chance to consume the majority of
the set.  Unfortunately, that will be a while, since these 10 discs were
just part of a major recent purchase, and I find myself with not a whole
lot of free time these days, due to a paper.  (But obviously enough to be
posting. :-) And once I finish this paper, I'll be going out of town for a
couple of weeks.

-chris
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker)
Subject: Re: women composers
Organization: Camosun College, Victoria B.C, Canada
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Distribution: na
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 00:28:37 GMT

graziano@ravel.udel.edu (Lisa Marie Graziano) writes:
: 
: 
: Here are just a few women composers:
: Francesca Caccinni, early 17th C., composer of operas
: Barbara Strozzi, 17th C., composer of contatas and other things
: 
: Eleanore of Aquitane- ok, so she wasn't necessarily a composer, but she
: was a very important musical figure in the 1100's.
: 
: and of course, Fanny Mendelssohn and Clara Schuman.  (Yes, she wrote music
: too!).  There are many from the 20th C, already mentioned by others (a few
: days ago).  Here's one: Ruth Crawford Seeger.

Alma Schindler-Mahler-etc. Gave it up to devote herself to Gustav's
career. She was a pupil of Alexander von Zemlinsky.

--
Real:  Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept., Camosun College, Victoria B.C.
Email: (dbarker@spang.camosun.bc.ca)
Phone: +1 604 370 4452
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: acid+@cs.cmu.edu (Christopher Colby)
Subject: Re: why no women composers (was Re: FINAL FINAL THOUGHTS !!
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 00:39:00 GMT

In article <1992Dec11.015043.8061@fid.morgan.com> apter@fid.morgan.com (Steve Apter) writes:
>In article <Dec.10.20.28.52.1992.4810@ruhets.rutgers.edu> bweiner@ruhets.rutgers.edu (Benjamin Weiner) writes:
>>apter@fid.morgan.com (Steve Apter) writes:
>>
>>|In article <Bz24o0.IrG.1@cs.cmu.edu> acid+@cs.cmu.edu (Christopher Colby) writes:
>>|>In article <1992Dec10.010932.19279@dgbt.doc.ca> ted@dgbt.doc.ca (Ted Grusec) writes:
>>|>>Creative activity, of the composing and other sorts, is all in the
>>|>>testosterone, and not in culture.  Read Camille Paglia.
>>|>
>>|>Hey buddy, you owe me the cost of one new Decstation B/W display.  I just
>>|>put my fist through one.
>>|>
>>|>-chris
>>
>>|>I don't see a smiley here, so it looks like Mr Grusec has just been dealt
>>|an ace.
>>
>>Only if you consider putting your fist through a Decstation B/W display
>>"creative activity."
>
>"Fist-fucking, in its starkly depersonalized conflation of voluntary rape
>and primitive exploratory surgery, dramatizes the daemonism of the sexual
>imagination, untouched by five thousand years of civilization.  My amazement
>never ceases at the biological conceptualism in male sexuality.  What woman
>could invent such compulsive structures?  What woman, unpaid, would live 
>and love in so hellish an underworld?"		_Sexual Personae_, p.264
>
>I don't see a smiley here either.

You're quote is irrelevant to the topic.  Yes, it is true that men are
different from women in complex ways.  But you apparently don't understand
the insidious subconscious processes that are deeply ingrained in society,
manifested through people such as you and Mr. Grusec and most people (both
men and women) I've come across, that warp the concepts in your quote to
produce harmful misogynist behavior.  Too bad the problem is large enough
that neither of us will live to see the proof of this.

-chris
From: jdooley@maemaster.eng.uci.edu (John R. Dooley)
Subject: Re: consensus on 2nd greatest opera [?]
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 15 Dec 92 17:12:02 GMT

In article <1992Dec14.234459.25915@news.cs.brandeis.edu> jacob@max.cc.brandeis.edu ( ) writes:
>1. i was wondering if there was a consensus on what the 2nd greatest
>   opera was. (note i'm not personally interested in arguing over what the
>   2nd greatest, or for that matter the 1nd greatest opera is, but simply if
>   there is a *consensus* of personal opinions on that count -- i'm under
>   the impression -- although i might be wrong of course -- that there is 
>   such a consensus as to what the greatest opera is, namely that it is
>   mozart's "don giovanni", and i do confess that among all the operas
>   *that i know* it is my favorite)
>

"Don Giovanni" is a wonderful opera, but I fear it is by no means the
concensus "greatest".  In a genre that includes dozens of great works
it'd be impossible to come up with a "consensus" great.  (Who knows --
maybe in the early 18th century musicians could say confidently that
"Orfeo et Euridice" was the greatest.)  In fact, I bet you'll find
that "Don Giovanni" is not the consensus greatest opera by Mozart.
(In fact, you probably won't find that it's the concensus greatest
Italian opera by Mozart. I'd wager that Giovanni, Figaro and Cosi 
would merit enough votes to eliminate any hope for anything greater
than a plurality victory.)

As for a consensus 2nd greatest opera --  well, you won't find one.

John D.
From: rags@triples.math.mcgill.ca (Robert A. G. Seely)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Xmas CD
Date: 13 Dec 92 21:43:27 GMT
Organization: /etc/organization

In article <1992Dec11.174004.16257@tc.fluke.COM> strong@tc.fluke.COM (Norm Strong) writes:
>It's time for my annual Xmas CD, and I'm looking for recommendations.
>
>It should be for chorus, with or without accompaniment, and have lots of
>rarely heard music.  I don't want another CD with the usual English
>stuff.  
>
>If anyone has heard a particularly good CD in this past year, please let
>me in on the secret.  
>
>Thanks so much,
>-- 
>
>Norm Strong  (strong@tc.fluke.com)
>2528 31st S.   Seattle WA 98144   USA


Still my top recommendation is last year's (or is it 2 years ago??) Taverner
Choir CD "The Carol Album"  - 2nd bet is their new "The Christmas Album".

And there is always Maddy Prior's Christmas CD - whose name I forget (but I
guess "Maddy Prior's Christmas CD" is a good guess ;-} )

-rags

PS For those who don't mind "usual English stuff" there is an old Xmas disk by
the Tallis Scholars on Gimell that is first rate.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: ssteigma@scott.skidmore.edu (Stephen H. Steigman)
Subject: Re: When to Initiate a Standing OHHHH ...
Organization: Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs NY
Distribution: ashley@oasis.gtefsd.com
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 06:16:08 GMT

ashley@oasis.gtefsd.com (Bob Ashley) writes:
> In article 19216@news2.cis.umn.edu,  jill@gopher.ccbr.umn.edu (Jill Hollifield) writes:
> 
> >So, my questions:  Does this happen anywhere else?  And what are *your*
> >criteria for a standing ovation?  What has to happen to bring you
> >to your feet?
> >
> >Jill
> 
> I have attended some National Symphony Orchestra concerts during the summer
> season at Wolf Trap Farm Park, and they usually receive a standing ovation
> as well.  Just this past summer, I had the opportunity to see the Boston Pops
> there as well.  They deserved ... and received one.   :-)
> 
> I will provide one answer to the last two questions ... the music,
> IMHO, should be played with emotion and conviction.  I saw the NSO
> perform Beethoven's Ninth Symphony, and the soloists were
>  outstanding.  You could feel it, from the
> soloists and chorus, right through the entire orchestra, during the final
> movement ("Ode to Joy").
> 
> Just my thoughts ...
> 
> 
> Bob - long awaiting the start of the new summer season   :-)
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Bob Ashley                        Internet:  Bob.Ashley@oasis.gtefsd.com
> 
> Member, Technical Staff            | Winter Bowling Leagues 1992-1993
>    GTE Federal Systems Division    |    GTE FSD Mixed Secretary: Thu 17:45
>    15000 Conference Center Drive   |    Thursday Mixups:         Thu 20:30
>    Chantilly, VA   22021-3808      |    NFL Mixed Secretary:     Mon 21:00
>    (703)-818- voice 4656  FAX 5484 |    Fantasy Bowling League:  Team #1
> 
> 
> 
Bob and all,

I don't mean to turn this into a review of this summer's NSO
performance of Beethoven's 9th, but I must tell you that that
performance of the NSO and the 9th was one of the highlights of my
musical life.  Even though I'm a bit biased (I worked for the NSO this
past summer and attended 7 of the 9 Wolf Trap concerts) I was still
amazed at the virtuosity of the orchestra and the Washington Choral
Arts Society, along with the 4 soloists.  And what a setting...Wolf
Trap is the perfect place for a concert...under the stars on a warm
evening.  The acoustics of Wolf Trap are impressive too!  After
hearing the NSO in both the Kennedy Center Concert Hall and Wolf Trap
(along with the Capital Centre - ugh - and the West Lawn of the
Capitol), I must admit that the acoustics at WT are better than they
are at the Kennedy Center!!

Back to the subject....if ANY performance of the NSO deserved a
standing ovation, it was certainly that one.  Normally, people
rush to get their cars and avoid the bottleneck of parking at WT.
This time they stood applauding for at least 4 minutes.

Just thought you'd enjoy that!

-Stephen
 
-- 
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Stephen H. Steigman   INTERNET: ssteigma@skidmore.edu
Skidmore College      VOICE:    (518) 581-6111 
Saratoga Springs NY  12866
From: bcc@tools8teradata.com (Brian Cantin)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Greatest living pianist
Date: 11 Dec 92 23:29:49 GMT
Organization: NCR/Teradata Business Unit

Moravec.

-- 
Brian Cantin
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: acid+@cs.cmu.edu (Christopher Colby)
Subject: Review: Janacek string quartets
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 18:18:43 GMT

There was a recent thread on Janacek's (1854-1928) music in which one
poster commented that the two string quartets, composed in 1923 and 1928,
were his favorite two string quartets of this century.  I have similar
sentiments; I do like Bartok's and Shostakovich's quartets, but I find
Janacek's contribution to the form to be special.

Finally, I got around to buying a recording of these two pieces, and I'm
very happy with it.  I'd like to recommend it.  It is by the Gabrieli
Quartet.  IMHO, the performers really capture the essence of this music.
These pieces have many faces, some extreme, and the Gabrieli Quartet has
enough versatility to reveal them.  Their ensemble is very good.  I feel
involved in the music when I'm listening to them.  Although I'm not a
string player, I imagine that these are particularly difficult works,
technically, and the Gabrieli Quartet really comes through to meet the
challenge.  Furthermore, I like their tone.  The recording took place in
1977, and the remastered sound is very good.

As a bonus -- and for me it can only be a bonus after the Janacek -- the
disc includes a recording of the same vintage of Smetena's First Quartet,
"From My Life".  I didn't know this piece until this recording, so I can't
really comment on the performance other than to say that, since acquiring
this disc, I have come to very much enjoy this piece.

London mid-priced CD 430 295-2.  Total time is 73:18.  A bargain.

-chris
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical