HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: carlton@scws1.harvard.edu (david carlton)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: need good bible arguments AGAINST the anti-gay passages
Date: 22 Aug 92 04:51:29 GMT
Article-I.D.: scws1.CARLTON.92Aug21215129
 <1992Aug21.204615.11457@lclark.edu> <BtCsyu.37F@solbourne.com>
Organization: Citizens for Boysenberry Jam
In-reply-to: gerber@solbourne.com's message of 21 Aug 92 21:56:53 GMT

In article <BtCsyu.37F@solbourne.com>, gerber@solbourne.com (Andrew Gerber) writes:

> [Peter J. Gomes, an American Baptist minister, is professor of
> Christian morals at Harvard.]

And, one might add, he is gay.

david carlton
carlton@husc.harvard.edu

       LBJ, LBJ, how many JOKES did you tell today??!
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: johnf@uhheph.phys.hawaii.edu (John Flanagan)
Subject: Re: Whizzzzzzz ( was Re: Introduction)
Organization: University of Hawaii, Dept. of Physics & Astronomy
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 05:50:59 GMT

In article <19AUG92.11445994@enh.nist.gov> aberson@enh.nist.gov writes:
>In a previous article, mike@gordian.com (Michael A. Thomas) wrote:
>> 
>>  Why don't you come and chase *our* little numbers? There sure have been
>>enough of them this year. 
>
>Did that last year.  We only do that if nothing is happening here.
>Unfortunately we decided not to go after Andrew.  The ones in the Pacific 
>don't do anything interesting anyway.

Maybe not when _you're_ around.

--John
-- 
John Flanagan                          ||"Pretty boys
johnf@uhheph.phys.hawaii.edu           || with the sunshine faces
U. of Hawaii, Dept. of Physics & Astro.|| <mumble mumble>..."
2505 Correa Rd., Honolulu, HI 96822    ||            -- My Bloody Valentine
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: michael@resonex.com (Michael Bryan)
Subject: Re: Gay Money and marriages in PA
Organization: Resonex Inc., Sunnyvale CA
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 09:27:01 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.165705.1193@tandon.com> tdbear@tandon.com (Tom Barrett) writes:
>to make sure we are clear on this... purposefully marking
>currancy is a federal crime... if someone knows the details,
>please post.

This topic made the rounds a few months ago, and somebody who did some
research into the applicable laws came up with more-or-less the
following: it is illegal to deface/alter currency in such a manner as
to make it unusable or unrecognizable.  Simply writing or stamping
something on it did not appear to be strictly prohibited.  (Unless of
course the degree of coverage is extreme.)  I don't recall the actual
wording, nor am I lawyer, judge, or legislator, so take this info with
that in mind.

Realistically, though, think about how many times you run across money
with something written on it.  I've yet to hear of a single person
being prosecuted for writing a phone number, their name, a grocery
list, or any other thing on paper currency.

Now where did I last see that "QUEER $$$" stamp with the red ink pad...

-- 
Michael Bryan        michael@resonex.com                     |     ,_,
                                                             |    /oo \
"What the world needs now are some true words of wisdom,     |    <>__|
like 'La-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la'."  -- Cracker           |    |  U|
From: John_Graves@cellbio.duke.edu
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: New queer terminology (was Re: The media, again)
Date: 17 Aug 92 14:57:49 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Duke University Medical Center

In article <1992Aug16.225820.13089@reed.edu> nelson@reed.edu (Nelson Minar)
writes:
>Is "queer" postmodern?

Is "postmodern" queer?

Is the signified the signifier?
From: gak@slcs.slb.com (Glenn Kramer)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: the "oh" experience
Date: 12 Aug 92 16:27:23 GMT
Article-I.D.: slcs.1992Aug12.162723.23786
Organization: Schlumberger Laboratory for Computer Science

In article <1992Aug10.110324.4845@nwnexus.WA.COM> elf@halcyon.com (Elf Sternberg) writes:
>In article <1992Aug9.165951.28674@cis.ohio-state.edu>
>     amz@cis.ohio-state.edu (Arnold M Zwicky) writes:
>
>>you all know the "ah-hah" experience.  but do you know the "oh"
>>experience...
>
>>"how is it that you know arnold zwicky, dean?"
>>"i used to date him."
>>"oh."
>
>>we could probably get a *GREAT* *BIG* *BOOK* out of these....


My own favorite "oh" experience:

Three and a half years ago, when I was given the opportunity to
tranfer to Schlumberger's Austin research lab, the lab director
suggested that I take Francis, my other half, to Austin to look at the
lab, the housing market, the job situation for him, etc. (Side note:
the company paid for Francis' trip, as well as all our joint expenses
in the subsequent move.)

While I was touring the lab, Francis was talking with a "career
counsellor." She told Francis, "Your wife has been given a very good
career opportunity, now we have to find something for you, blah, blah,
blah." Francis, being so polite, said nothing to contradict her.
Later, I came back from the lab tour to pick him up, to go to a 
party for potential transferees. The career counsellor tagged along,
as she didn't know the way to the party. She asked me if I was
considering moving to Austin.  When I answered in the positive, she
asked if I was married. I pointed to Francis, and said, "I'm with
him."

The career counsellor stopped in her tracks and said, "Oh...<long
pause> Oh... <long pause> Oh... OK," and with that, we continued to
the place where the party was to be held.

I still delight in trying to reconstruct her exact thought processes
during those long pauses...

-- 
Glenn A. Kramer
Schlumberger Laboratory for Computer Science
PO Box 200015
Austin, TX 78720-0015                                        gak@slcs.slb.com
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: rdonahue@spdcc.com (Bob Donahue)
Subject: Re: wearing symbols
Organization: insert anything here
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 04:13:00 GMT

mike@gordian.com (Michael A. Thomas) writes:
>rdonahue@spdcc.com (Bob Donahue) writes:

>> that once the symbol is co-opted is HAS no meaning.
>> In other words, what we use to symbolize our pride is lost.

>  Instantly, unequivocably. The second that one of those blood
>sucking co-optor steals one of our Sacred Symbols all meaning is
>instantaneously lost. No chance at recovery, no chance of anybody
>understanding where the symbol came from and what it represents.
>Lost into the great abyss of Corporate America where nothing ever
>returns. 

	No but I didn't say this.  I said that eventually, unchecked,
this could happen.

>> 	I don't know how I can make it any simpler...  Maybe try
>> this one:  Let's say that Burger King decides the Star of David
>> is a REALLY NEAT symbol and starts marketing some product using it
>> as a symbol.  Does this "cross-pollenate" with the Jewish community?
>> No - it just makes that symbolism surrounding it confusing because
>> it no longer claims the space it once did.

>  Gun. Foot. Bang. Thank you for making my point. If Borgesa King
>co-opted the Star of David it's meaning would be irretreivably lost?
>What utter drek. You honestly think that the Jews wouldn't point
>this out, and make certain that everybody knew *exactly* what was 
>being co-opted? I guess they'd just roll over and play dead, by golly.

	Aha!  A synapse has been formed!

	So - then if one of our symobls is being co-opted,
and since our symbols have less grass-roots recognition than the
Star of David, where does this lead..........?

	It goes back to what I said originally... (fancy that!)
Unless we as you say up above "point this out, and make certain
that everybody knew *exactly* what was being co-opted" we're just
rolling over and playing dead.

	We might start by informing IM of just this.

>  Gad, I can't believe you've convinced yourself of this.

	No but I did manage to convince you of what I was trying
to say earlier on...


>  Like I've said three times before, if the meaning of the symbols
>are lost because we didn't speak up, whose fault is that? If the
>Jews just rolled over and let the Star of David become a burger
>selling tool without a protest, whose fault is that? 

	So who was speaking up?  (me)
	Who was saying is wasn't important?
	Now who is saying that unless we protest we only have ourselves
to blame...

Thank you for playing...
BBC
Xref: sparky soc.motss:35410 ba.motss:1430
From: fvaughn@ds5000.coe.northeastern.edu (Frederick Vaughn)
Newsgroups: soc.motss,ba.motss
Subject: Re: Robert Bernardo  (1952-1992)
Date: 17 Aug 92 19:17:09 GMT
Followup-To: soc.motss
Organization: Northeastern University

Goodbye, Boyfriend. We're gonna miss you.

fred 
--
*******************************************************************************
FREDERICK !  fvaughn@ds5000.dac.northeastern.edu (PRIMARY)
ELOY      !  bo643@cleveland.freenet.edu (SECONDARY)
VAUGHN    !  "MMMMMMMmmmmmm...Tasty!" 
    	  !
From: pc@linus.mitre.org (Melissa P. Chase)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: Introduction
Date: 19 Aug 92 20:25:56 GMT
	<l93evnINNpnt@mizar.usc.edu> <1992Aug19.040257.7277@cis.ohio-state.edu>
Followup-To: soc.motss
Organization: Research Computer Facility, The MITRE Corporation, Bedford MA

In article <1992Aug19.040257.7277@cis.ohio-state.edu>
amz@iguana.cis.ohio-state.edu (Arnold M Zwicky) writes:

>   my general scheme here is simply to ignore hallmark cards.  donald
>   will read on, and learn (or not learn) various lessons.

Hear, hear.  I read Donald's "Introduction" and my reaction was "ok,
so now what."  I learned some facts about his life, but not that much
about him as a person.  That will come in time as he participates in
soc.motss.  Although email and newsgroup encounters are not quite the
same as face to face ones, we do reveal something of ourselves in each
encounter, and over a time we build up (incomplete) pictures of one
another.  Sometimes people will relate facts and personal anecdotes,
but because this often happens in the context of some kind of
discussion, they reveal more than they would in a "hallmark card." And
yes, some people may have soc.motss personae different from their
"real" selves, but that's not very different from our non-electronic
relationships.

And now to switch gears...

Donald's original suggestion was prompted by Rob Bernado's death and
regretting that he never had the chance to know him.  One of the
wonderful things that has been happening since his death is people
have been posting tributes and quotes from Rob's postings (some of
called this a wake, to me it's more like paying a shiva call).  One
thing that might be nice to do (going beyond naming motssers who've
passed away from AIDS in the FAQ) would be to compile an anthology of
these tributes, anthologies, memorable posts, etc. and archive them
somewhere.

	Penny




--
UUCP:  { ... }!linus!pc 
INTERNET:  pc@mitre.org
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: ae642@yfn.ysu.edu (Kelley Miller)
Subject: Re: Gay Homophobia & Allan Williams
Reply-To: ae642@yfn.ysu.edu (Kelley Miller)
Organization: St. Elizabeth Hospital, Youngstown, OH
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1992 14:19:52 GMT


In a previous article, anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson) says:

>
>In article <1992Aug23.031424.17600@microsoft.com>
>bobsarv@microsoft.com (Bob Sarver) writes:
>
>>>It's *Alan*.  Not "Allen," not "Allan."
>
>>Then change your name.  It's spelled wrong.
>
>That about sums you up, doesn't it?
>

I remember, back in grade school, I had a teacher who would mark my
name as spelled incorrectly.  Her daughter's name was spelled "Kelly",
therefore, I had to be spelling mine wrong.  Even after showing her
my birth certificate, she insisted....




>-- 
>Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin
>Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson
>NeXTmail w/attachments: anderson@yak.macc.wisc.edu  Bitnet: anderson@wiscmacc
>Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888
>
-- 
*...your Friendly Neighborhood Atheist // "Peter...PETER!!  I can see    *
*      the KelleyMan:Kelley L. Miller // your house from here!"          *    
*                  ae642@yfn.ysu.edu // Jesus Christ, from the cross     *
****************Know God...No peace.  No God...Know peace.****************
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Faulty Arithmetic
Date: 22 Aug 92 11:46:00 GMT
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison


Mara, ever the sharp-eyed one, has alerted me to the
shoddiness (she would never use that term, I'm sure) of my
computation of the minimum age of a poster I pasted last
night.  I said he would have to be 33 to have voted for
Reagan.  By correcting several errors on my part, it would be
possible for him to be as young as 25 today.

But the point -- his being an incredible jerk -- stands.

-- 
Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin
Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson
NeXTmail w/attachments: anderson@yak.macc.wisc.edu  Bitnet: anderson@wiscmacc
Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: jakec@ralvmm.vnet.ibm.com (Jake Coughlin)
Subject: Re: wearing symbols
Originator: jakec@ralvmm.vnet.ibm.com
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 92 13:08:47 GMT
Organization: IBM T. J. Watson Research

chuckm@claiborne.tcs.com (Chuck Meares):
> You sir, I definitely do NOT like.  

``don't cry for me, jake coughlin.  the truth is i never liked you.
  not in your wild days, your mad existance.''
-- 
Jason Coughlin ( jakec@ralvmm.vnet.ibm.com )
Queer Without A Cause!
"I find myself suddenly in the world, and I recognize that I have one
right alone: that of demanding human behavior of the other." -- Fanon
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: bobsarv@microsoft.com (Bob Sarver)
Subject: Re: Too straight looking to be gay??? (was re: UNGAY GAY)
Date: 20 Aug 92 01:20:58 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corp.


Mlle dyer, mlle hughes, & mlle twpierce:

I had no idea that you three debutantes were so incestuously interconnected.
Thank you for settling a bet for me, though, and making me $10 richer.  

I bet another masc. gay friend that none of the net queens on soc.motss
would be able to offer coherent counterarguments.  He believed,
however, that you would be able to contain yourselves and post something 
of value.  

Oh, and as for you three ladies and me "on top":  
There isn't a nickel's worth of difference between any of you and an
actual woman; (of course there isn't; you like it that way).

Given the choice, I'd still opt for a real lady instead of 
any of you three "wannabe's".  Even I have *some* standards.
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: anderson@macc.wisc.edu (Jess Anderson)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: I'm leaving  :(
Date: 21 Aug 92 04:44:35 GMT
Organization: Madison Academic Computing Center, UW-Madison


In article <1992Aug20.214531.9322@midway.uchicago.edu>
elle@midway.uchicago.edu writes:

>Richard McKewen writes:

>>But, hey, that's OK.  At least I *am* beautiful.

>Yes, he is.

That says it, but it needs to be said *more*: Richard is
what I would call *gorgeous*!  And that's only one item on
his list of virtues.

>We'll miss you, darlin'.  Be sure to write -- and don't forget to pick
>up some cuties for Jess.

Failing that, send me you!

Bon voyage, bonne chance and all those goodies.  But be
careful -- you do *not* want be arrested in *that* part of
the world, believe me.

Grosses bises de ton ami, Jess.

-- 
Jess Anderson <> Madison Academic Computing Center <> University of Wisconsin
Internet: anderson@macc.wisc.edu <-best, UUCP:{}!uwvax!macc.wisc.edu!anderson
NeXTmail w/attachments: anderson@yak.macc.wisc.edu  Bitnet: anderson@wiscmacc
Room 3130 <> 1210 West Dayton Street / Madison WI 53706 <> Phone 608/262-5888
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: clc@big-brother.nevada.edu (Chris L. Cobb)
Subject: Re: Gay Money and marriages in PA
Organization: UCCSNCS
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 21:09:36 GMT

barry@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu writes:
>I just spoke with a friend in New Mexico who just received some "gay money."
>
>She told me that this is supposedly nation-wide.  I've not seen anything like
>that in Pittsburgh, PA.  Has anyone else seen it?

I happened across a US$1 bill with "GAY $" stamped on it back in
February.  It was such a surprise I kept the bill.  I guess I'm
not doing much for the process.  :-)

--clc

---
Chris L. Cobb -- clc@nevada.edu -- Stealth Bear -- B0 f t+ w c+ g k+ s++ p
From: urso@spdcc.com (Stephen Chappell)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: Re: What *IS* "Heaven", anyway?
Date: 19 Aug 92 19:01:09 GMT
Article-I.D.: spdcc.1992Aug19.190109.7138
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA

No, no, no... you're all wrong.
 
Heaven is the third floor of the Masquerade in Atlanta.  They play jazz
there.  The second floor is Pergatory (rock), and the first floor is
Hell (industrial, punk, etc. rock). 
 
[] Urso

-- 
[] Stephen Chappell (a.k.a. "Urso")
[] urso@ursa-major.spdcc.com
[] 15 Walker Street, Powder House Square   
[] Somerville, MA 02144-1622, USA 
Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: bobsarv@microsoft.com (Bob Sarver)
Subject: RE: Gay Homophobia (was Re: Too straight looking to be gay???) (was re: UNGAY GAY)
Date: 23 Aug 92 03:08:57 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corp.



/(aberson)
/With your superior intellectual capacity, I don't understand how you
/haven't been able to figure out that we are all too stupid to understand
/what you are so simply trying to explain to us. 

Actually, no.  You are not all too stupid.  Well, anderson is; but that's
because he & melinda have to share one brain between them.  

But for the rest of you there's probably hope.


/(aberson)
/We obviously can never
/understand what you are saying even though you know that we should behave
/ourselves and be good little queers.  I can't believe you think that
/any of us could possibly understand your premier ideas on human
/relations.

I have gotten several pieces of email from various folks who are "silent
lurkers" on this newsgroup; that is, they read but never post (or so they
tell me).  The reason they never post is that it would be suicide; this
group appears to enjoy the sport of hunting down and tearing apart any
posting that it doesn't like.  Sort of like a pack of jackals . . .

They have given up posting (or wisely avoided doing it) because it's 
obvious to them that the chief posters on soc.motss regard this newsgroup 
as their private property, and god help anyone who posts something
contrary to the Accepted Truth (TM).




Newsgroups: soc.motss
From: rdonahue@spdcc.com (Bob Donahue)
Subject: Re: wearing symbols
Organization: insert anything here
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 01:05:23 GMT

mike@gordian.com (Michael A. Thomas) writes:
>rdonahue@spdcc.com (Bob Donahue) writes:
>> mike@gordian.com (Michael A. Thomas) writes:
>> 	Were something like the Freedom Rings the latest fashion craze
>> of 1992-1993, conversations like this would be common:
>> 
>> 	"Oh I see you're wearing the Fashion Rings.  Are you gay
>> or lesbian or bisexual?"
>> 	"Um, no."
>> 	"Oh so then you support gay/lesbian/bi rights?"
>> 	"Well, no, not really"
>> 	"So why are you wearing them?"
>> 	"Huh, well everyone is wearing them!  They look cool."
>> 	"But they're a symbol of gay pride!"
>> 	"No they're not, I mean like everyone is wearing them,
>> it doesn't mean anything."
>> 
>> 	"... OH."
>
>    ?!?! This is *bad*? I mean, really. A straight person thought gay
>is a *bad* *thing*? If more straight people were thought gay you don't
>think there would be a few more howls of protest? A little more thought
>into just what exactly it's like to be gay? Oh, puleeze!

	Do you practice being clueless or does it come naturally to you?

	The point is (and if you miss this one, I promise I'll give up
because there's no point in chasing after cardioencephalograms with
zero variance), that once the symbol is co-opted is HAS no meaning.
In other words, what we use to symbolize our pride is lost.

	I don't know how I can make it any simpler...  Maybe try
this one:  Let's say that Burger King decides the Star of David
is a REALLY NEAT symbol and starts marketing some product using it
as a symbol.  Does this "cross-pollenate" with the Jewish community?
No - it just makes that symbolism surrounding it confusing because
it no longer claims the space it once did.

	The point of the pink triangle, the rainbow flag, and
by association, the freedom rings is to give GBLO*-folks and
GBLO*-supportive folks the ability to be visible and to recognize
the presence of the GBLO*-community in the mainstream world.
Once it is co-opted, you have no way of knowing if the intent
is really pro-GBLO* awareness and visibilty or if it just happens
to be there.  Granted this will happen no matter what, at a small
scale, but the large-scale watering down by IM in no way respects
nor helps why the symbol exists or what it stands for.

	Re-read their ad.  Re-read it again and again nd again
until it sinks in that there is something missing from it.

BBC
From: mara@panix.com (Mara Chibnik)
Newsgroups: soc.motss
Subject: friends vs. family (was Re: need good bible arguments ...)
Date: 23 Aug 92 09:13:35 GMT
Organization: (getting there)

carlton@husc10.harvard.edu (david carlton) writes:
 >I think that I would probably take issue with the above anyways,
 >though.  Whether or not somebody points out that Peter Gomes is gay,
 >the fact is that he is.  It is the current sad state of affairs that
 >queers are a lot more likely to stand up for our rights than others;
 >but while not mentioning that Peter Gomes is gay might give the
 >illusion that we have a another straight supporter, or rather it won't
 >destroy that illusion, it is in this case only an illusion.  It really
 >annoys me to, say, read in the introduction to a scholarly work on
 >Greek homosexuality that the author is straight but is fortunate in
 >feeling no disgust at any act between consenting adults (or words to
 >that effect) and to realize that that work probably wouldn't have had
 >the affect that it did without that sentence; but it's still true.

And this paragraph can pose a serious dilemma for some people.  

The appearance of that suggested disclaimer generates a fair amount
of distaste, since it sounds as though someone is being very careful
to separate the serious scholar (straight, of course; otherwise bias
would interfere with the scholarship, right?  We all know that
straight people aren't biased*, at least not about sexuality, don't
we?) from the interested (unfunny double entendre here) gay writer,
who obviously has an ax to grind.  You gotta be careful, if you
write about stuff like this, or if you take a position on gay
rights, that people know just who you are, because otherwise you'll
be dismissed as just another glbo*.

But if you don't have such a statement (as David says), even if you
couldn't care less what people think about your own sexuality, you
aren't making the point that gay rights (or scholarship or anything
else that attempts to get beyond heterocentrism) can be important for
people who aren't gay.

You win some, you lose some.

*This is the sort of thing that cuts across the grain of the social
fabric.  I hope we can selvedge something from it.  I moved this
comment out of the paragraph above because I didn't want the puns to
distract you from the sarcasm.

 >At any rate, I didn't say what I did because of the above.  I just
 >wanted to point out to members of our family who weren't aware of it
 >already that Gomes was also a member of our family.  That's all.
And the story, which emerged in stages, was a fine one to read.
Thanks to David and Arnold and Steve for their various efforts in
putting it before us.


-- 

  Mara Chibnik
  mara@panix.com                Life is too important to be taken seriously.