HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: zevpeter@chen.bgu.ac.il (Bill Peter)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Subject: Re: Desired deafness in offspring
Date: 10 Nov 92 11:21:01 GMT
Organization: Ben Gurion University, Beer Sheva, Israel
Originator: zevpeter@chen.bgu.ac.il



|>
|>      Notice that ASL and values necessitates the existence of physical
|> defect which is deafness.  Without deafness, ASL and values will not
|> exist.
|>
|>      Mark, I know that this is long but at least, you have my view.
|> If you want one sentence, here is it:  Deaf couples will like to
|> have same identity from their children and deaf children have
|> more chance than hearing children to fulfill the need of identity.
|>
|>                                         Joseph P. Riolo
|>                                         <riolo@pica.army.mil>

     Joseph is right:  "Without deafness, ASL and values will not exist."

     I think that this accounts for the militantcy of some deaf-cultured
     individuals.  Their culture, being predicated on the "existence of
     a physical defect which is deafness" is losing the battle against
     modern science and medicine.  Their wish to have deaf children,
     their anger at Marlee Matlin for using her voice, their opposition to
     cochlear implants, etc., are just vain attempts at surviving the onslaught of
     modern science.

     Joseph's comment that deaf children have a better chance of being acculturated
     to the Deaf Culture than hearing children is probably also correct.  I wonder,
     however, to what extent the more extreme ASL-cultured parents would take this
     as a matter of principle.  I assume that they wouldn't take an ice pick
     and hack away at their hearing kids' cochlea, but would they oppose the use of
     hearing aids for their own hard-of-hearing (not deaf) kids?  If in ten years, a new
     surgical technique to cure deafness becomes as common as, say, cataract surgery
     on the eye, would the militant ASL-cultured deaf refuse their children the
     opportunity to hear?  Hey, this might be a good science fiction story....
--
Bill Peter
Physics Department
Ben-Gurion University, Beersheva, Israel.
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Date:         Fri, 6 Nov 1992 07:20:53 -0500
From:         Miriam Clifford <DMIMI@ECSVAX.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Missing or incomplete e-mail addresses

Chris Stephenson says, "Too often . . . hearing folks talk too much, listen
to rarely and understand too little . . ." and I would add so does every
group have people who talk too much, listen too rareley and understand too
little.  I've been in a group of deaf, HoH, and hearing people, where the
deaf folks blithly sign busily to each other while someone is talking to the
group.  That seems to me just as rude as having a hearing person talk while
someone else is signing, or having someone read or watch tv while someone
else is talking to them.  In other words, the hearing have no monopoly on
failing to attend or failing to learn.

dmimi@ecsvax.uncecs.edu  dmimi@ecsvax.bitnet
Miriam (Mimi) Clifford; 2535 Sevier St, Durham, NC 27705; 919-489-4821
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Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 19:38:56 -0500
Comments:     Warning -- RSCS tag indicates an origin of 11SRUST@GALLUA1
From:         "Scott A. Rust" <11SRUST@GALLUA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Telnet address at Gallaudet

IN%"cclark@CNRI.Reston.VA.US"  "Cynthia Clark" writes:

>Hi Scott again,

>Yes, I am interested to get on the "Notes" which is an e-mail
>discussion in Gallaudet.   How can I get on the "Notes" ?

>Cynthia

        Ok, to access "Notes" you need to have an account here. Let me
just dispell a small myth here: The "Notes" conferences are not all
they're hyped up to be. Notes conferences are set up on topics ranging
from student discussion "Whatsup6", sports "SportsX", faculty/staff
discussion "QC" and "DeanChat3", comics, games, different societies and
otherwise. These are not really "hotbeds of information". They are mostly
innane discussion groups without a lot of practical meaning. (These are
of course my own opinions. One man's junk is another man's treasure,
no?)
        Was there something specific in the Notes groups you want? A
question you wanted to ask of the students or just to see what Gallaudet
students/staff are talking about? If it's a question you wanted to ask,
I will be happy to post it for you with your address so they can reply
to it.

                Scott
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
From: pepper@shell.portal.com (Angelique N Wahlstedt)
Subject: Hiya!
Organization: Portal Communications Company -- 408/973-9111 (voice) 408/973-8091 (data)
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 07:14:21 GMT


Hiya...excuse me for intruding, but I just discovered this newsgroup. What is
DEAF-L, and is it open to anyone? (By the way, I'm deaf which is why this
newsgroup caught my eye. :-)

-- Ms. Pepper

--
                    Angeli "Ms. Pepper" Wahlstedt
 
Portal: ms-pepper@cup.portal.com
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Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 18:39:09 -0500
From:         Cynthia Clark <cclark@CNRI.RESTON.VA.US>
Subject:      Re: deaf in the mainstream
              04 Nov 92 15:15:00." <9211041825.aa23423@CNRI.Reston.VA.US>

	>Joseph posts:
	>  >You might have seen deaf people out there...but did not walk
	>  >to them and introduce yourself...
	>
	>Thanks for the smile...what does a deaf person look like??
	>
	>--Annette (ALEMONS@ILSTU)



What does a deaf person look like ??

Hmmm, a deaf person look very, very, VERY UGLY.....   (eek)

Hey, please do NOT bristle because I am ONLY KIDDING you, ha ha ha

Cynthia
"A born-deaf reader"


====================================================================
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
From: pepper@shell.portal.com (Angelique N Wahlstedt)
Subject: Re: deaf wish
Organization: Portal Communications Company -- 408/973-9111 (voice) 408/973-8091 (data)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 08:00:36 GMT

In article <DEAF-L%92110616114753@SIUCVMB.BITNET> LEW@TAUNIVM.BITNET (Lew Golan) writes:

>     No matter how you rationalize it, you are saying that your feelings
>and your language are more important than the best interests of your future
>children -- who, if they are born deaf (as you desire), will face a
>lifetime of struggle, frustration, deprivation, discrimination, isolation,
>underachievement and other disadvantages which they would not encounter if
>they were born hearing.

Excuse me, but that sounds like a typical life of a deaf kid born to hearing
parents who have been trying in vain to turn the deaf kid into a "hearie".

Granted, a deaf person's life isn't easy, but she/he has to make the best
of it. Besides, hearing people's lives aren't much easier, especially if
they are poor or belong to a much-discriminated-against minority. Just ask
a black kid living in a ghetto. Even with perfect hearing, she/he faces
practically the same disadvantages that a deaf person would have.

-- Ms. Pepper

--
                    Angeli "Ms. Pepper" Wahlstedt
 
Portal: ms-pepper@cup.portal.com
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Return-Path: <adler@a1.mscf.upenn.edu>
Msg-Class: ALL-IN-1 V2.3 BL8-4 Rev. AAC 20-Dec-1988
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 15:59:01 -0500
From:         Henry Adler <adler@A1.MSCF.UPENN.EDU>
Subject:      re: cochlear implants

I'm still skeptical about cochlear implants, but I'm happy that the girl is
doing very well with her cochlear implant.  After all, when she lost her
hearing due to meningitis, she was unhappy without any hearing.  She even
complained that her whistle was "broken."  I was a bit furious with the
president of the organization of the Deaf when she said the parents were
not qualified to decide that the cochlear implant would be good for their
daughter (and I was also disturbed by Harlan Lane, too when he said that
the doctors were trying to make money from the deaf).

In any case, I agree with Chris Lefheldt that it is the best solution that
parents make a decision for their children, no matter what others say.

Regards,

Henry
adler@mscf.med.upenn.edu
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 14:30:01 -0500
From:         Henry Adler <adler@A1.MSCF.UPENN.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Lipreading

I have a question for you, Barry.  Would you assume that I'm one of the
deaf people who can't lipread, just because a statistics test (e.g., ANOVA)
shows that the majority of the deaf people can't lipread?

Regards,

Henry

adler@mscf.med.upenn.edu
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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 14:18:25 -0600
From:         FATRW@USU.BITNET
Subject:      bio

Name:  Beth Walden

Age: 43 (where did the time go!?)

Occupation:  Data Manager for SKI*HI Institute.  I handle all the data
and statistical analysis.  SKI*HI Institute is part of Utah State
University in Logan, Utah.  We create and provide materials and
assistance for early home based intervention for deaf, hard of
hearing, visually impaired children and their families.  (My next
post to this network will be a position announcement).

Education:  BS University of Colorado (distributed studies degree -
               Math, Fine Arts, Computer sScience)
            All but final project for MS in Instructional Technology
               from Utah State University
            All but second comp and dissertation for PhD from USU in
               research and evaluation of education

Hobbies:  Hiking, snowshoing, reading, computer communication, weight
          lifting, crochet, photography.

Hearing status:  mostly hearing (very slight loss noticed when in
                 a noisy environment - have begun to notice that I
                 lipread a little to augment what I hear)

Favorite saying:  If you like what you're getting , keep on doing
                  what you're doing.

Favorite books:  "All God's Children are Lost, But only a Few can
                   Play the Piano" - Sheldon Kopp
                 "Women Who Run With the Wolves" - Clarissa Estes
                    (reading in process)
                 All of the Earth Children series by Jean Auel

If I won the lottery:  I would continue my job (I love it!) but I
               wouldn't have to be paid.  I would continue my
               education, but I wouldn't have to hurry as much.  I
               would then take classes as I want because I like
               school and learning.  I would upgrade my computer.
               I would put all my neices and nephews and step-
               grandchildren through what ever post-secondary
               education they wanted.
From: LEW@TAUNIVM.BITNET (Lew Golan)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Subject: deaf wish
Date: 6 Nov 92 23:04:44 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

Joseph --

     It's one thing to love and accept your children, deaf or not. That's
fine, and if ASL helps you and your children to make the best of the
situation, more power to you.
     But to wish for a child to be born deaf is something else.
     No matter how you rationalize it, you are saying that your feelings
and your language are more important than the best interests of your future
children -- who, if they are born deaf (as you desire), will face a
lifetime of struggle, frustration, deprivation, discrimination, isolation,
underachievement and other disadvantages which they would not encounter if
they were born hearing.
     Life is tough enough without the added burden of deafness.
     I wouldn't wish that on anyone -- least of all my own children.

Lew Golan, Tel-Aviv University <lew@vm.tau.ac.il>
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Date:         Thu, 5 Nov 1992 09:30:55 -0500
From:         "Mark J. Dessert" <11MDESSERT@GALLUA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Telnet address at Gallaudet

>Do you know of any other e-mail address such as Deaf-l that provides info.
>about education and/or deafness?  I am majoring in Deaf Education and am
>am doing a project for class. I need to gather a list of e-mail address to
>share with my classmates.  We need to obtain and share information thru

>Eagle


Elaine,
     I recently heard about a public bulliten board service called "On
Line America."  You cannot access it through VAX, but if you have a PC
and a modem, you can subscribe to it.  One of the discussion groups
focuses on adults who grew up hearing but became deaf as adults.  I
don't know if this would be helpful to you, but  I will get more specific
iformation and post it soon.
                             Mark
================================================================================
   ===

          With each passing day, I discover how little I know...

================================================================================
   =
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
From: mheney@access.digex.com (Michael K. Heney)
Subject: Re: Information Needed
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 22:08:33 GMT

In article <=nbqvtf@lynx.unm.edu> ecameron@groucho.mrc.uidaho.edu () writes:
>
>I am a Sign Language Interpreting major at the UNM.  I understand that
>people who use signed language a lot tend to get Corpal Tunnel Syndrome
>(I'm sorry, I know I spelled that wrong), especially interpreters.  Does
>anybody out there have any information on this?  Can a person avoid getting
>it?  THANK YOU...

Carpal Tunnel Syndrome is an Occupational Hazard of Sign Language
Interpreters.  According to my wife (an interpreter, here referenced
from my memory) the best way to avoid Carpal Tunnel is to keep your
hands down.  That might seem flippant, but it's not.
 
1)  In conversations, people take turns talking.  So your hands get
a rest when someone else is talking (assuming a signing conversation, not
interpreting here).
 
2)  Long, strenuous interpreting jobs should be team-interpreted.   
20-minute shifts are pretty good.  20 on/40 off is even better, but it's
hard to get a client to pay for *3* interpreters ...
 
3)  Interpreting can be much harder than conversation, because situations
arise where you can't put your hands down.  At a speech/public gathering
etc, you might have a whole series of speakers, with you signing to 
deaf audience members.  Your hands are up the whole time.  One-on-one
interpreting is easier, as you sign for the hearing person (hands up) and
voice for the deaf person (hands down).

Again, this is second-hand from my wife, who's not on-line (or nearby
right now).  You might want to talk to one of the local sign-interpreting
agencies in your area for more info - I'm making the assumption here that 
a school with a Sign Interpreting Program will be in an area with a
deaf community and hopefully better-than-average services.  Hope this helps...
-- 
Mike Heney                |   Senior Systems Analyst and     |  Reach for the
mheney@access.digex.com   |  Space Activist / Entrepreneur   |  Stars, eh?
Kensington, MD (near DC)  |     * Will Work for Money *      |
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Subject: 60 minutes
From: zevpeter@chen.bgu.ac.il (Bill Peter)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 22:44:35 GMT
Organization: Ben Gurion University, Beer Sheva, Israel
Originator: zevpeter@chen.bgu.ac.il



I received an e-mail message from a friend of mine who lives in the U.S.A.
and knows that my youngest son is hearing impaired.  He told me that the
CBS show "60 Minutes" did a special on cochlear implants.  He couldn't
follow all of it (he was making dinner, etc.) but indicated that they had a
5-year old ex-deaf girl as an interviewee, and he called her post-implanted hearing
"impressive" and her speech indistinguishable from a hearing child's.  He also
said that there were some militant deaf people interviewed on the show who were very much
against cochlear implants (he is unaware of `deaf culture`).  Can someone
who saw the show, and is familiar with deaf/HOH topics care to write a brief synopsis
on the main points of the program?

Thanks.

--
Bill Peter
Physics Department
Ben-Gurion University, Beersheva, Israel.
From: sethg@SILVER.LCS.MIT.EDU ((Seth Gordon))
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.deaf-l
Subject: cochlear implants
Date: 7 Nov 92 03:35:49 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
              2 Nov 1992 19:07:00 -0700 <9211030539.AA05525@silver.lcs.mit.edu>


    I know very many deaf people who have become quite fluent in ASL after
    they became teenagers or adults. It appears that ASL can be learned
    quite well late in life, and often is by deaf people who were successful
    (or unsuccessful) products of totally oral educational upbringing.

According to _Seeing Voices_ (if memory serves), there are subtle
differences between the ASL produced by native signers and ASL
produced by people who learned it as adults.

Also, keep in mind that children need to communicate fluently in *a*
language to develop certain cognitive skills, and if they don't
acquire any native language by adulthood, they could have permanent
mental impairments.  For those who are *completely* unsuccessful
"products of totally oral educational upbringing", "late in life"
might be too late.

    Is it the case that failure of a deaf child to learn oral skills at a young
    age precludes the effective development of oral skills later in life,
    yet ASL can be learned at any age by those with reasonable eyesight and
    normal intelligence?

Well, pure-oral deaf (and sighted) children are not learning ASL, but
they are learning to recognize and interpret visual patterns, and
learning hand-eye coordination, which are certainly prerequisites to
learning ASL.  On the other hand, a deaf child without speech therapy
will probably *not* spend much time learning fine coordination of the
tongue and voicebox muscles.  So the jump from pure oralism to oral+ASL
wouldn't be as great as the jump from pure sign to sign+speech.

But ... are there any schools for the deaf in the US that are, as a
matter of policy, "pure sign"?  The Learning Center is one of the
most pro-ASL schools in the country, but our Director hath decreed
that students who can benefit from speech therapy will get it.
--
seth gordon ... <sethg@silver.lcs.mit.edu>   ... .sig under construction;
mit bs '91  ... learning ctr 4 deaf children ... pardon the inconvenience
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Date:         Sat, 7 Nov 1992 20:20:00 +1300
From:         IS30124@OTAGO.AC.NZ
Subject:      Re: chance in speechreading

Miriam (Mimi) Clifford says:-
>Hey, Barry.  As something of a scientist (psychologist/educator, but let's
>not start on that), I'm a believer in scientific method and use the
>pric
>(sorry) principles of science whenever possible.  But let's not confuse
>scientific findings with truth.  They may or may not be, who knows.  Also
>today's truth is sometimes tomorrows error.

I'll be the devil's advocate.... What if the truth is the same as a scientific
finding? What if the scientific finding is strong enough to support statements
one makes in an article or a speech? I do have a bachelor of science degree,
and I am very careful to state things as accurately as possible. It can be easy
to confuse truth with findings. But then, people sometimes look at things in a
way they are comfortable with.

Bosco Keown says:-
>It would be better if people wasted less effort trying to find
>out how much content is lost in lipreading and instead worked
>on ways of *improving* lipreading ability. I firmly believe that
>with innovative methods (such as multimedia) and the right kind
>of discipline, it is possible to achieve a phenomenal level of
>lipreading ability. I believe that developing one's memory has
>an awful lot to do with it because, during lipreading, the slightest
>cue can trigger memory associations which lead to comprehension.

Ha, I am quite sceptical about how much technology can achieve. Remember it can
be as disadvantageous as it can be advantageous. Remember the wonderful
invention of the telephone? One invention I do like is digital lines. That is
capable of carrying videophone data, and it's only a matter of time before the
capacity of these lines is big enough to conduct an interactive "videophone"
session.

>Life is hard. There are no short cuts. The nearest thing to a short
>cut is hard work.

For many profoundly deaf people in NZ, the oralism policy of the education
department was hard work for them, and came to nothing for most of them. I can
tell you, if you want, about a 50 year old woman whom my father and brother had
great difficulty understanding. She didn't understand English words we wrote
down for her. She looked quite intelligent but "could not express herself"
(Dad's words). It transpired that she wanted us to sell some welding equipment
for her. That much information took 2 hours of frustrating communication. It
may be that she knows some NZSL but she certainly seemed like she got a raw
deal from the education authorities. So? There are some circumstances where hard
work will achieve nothing.

Yours sincerely,
Barry Kirkland.
IS30124@OTAGO.AC.NZ
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Date:         Wed, 4 Nov 1992 17:43:58 -0500
From:         Cynthia Clark <cclark@CNRI.RESTON.VA.US>
Subject:      RE: Telnet address at Gallaudet

Scott,

A question for you:

Is Gallaudet University a private University or
a public University ?

Cynthia Clark


------- Forwarded Message  ---------------------------------------------

In article <DEAF-L%92110316482721@SIUCVMB.BITNET>,         Roy Miller <GE0013@SI
   UCVMB.BITNET> writes:
> The TELNET address for Gallaudet University is GALLUA.GALLAUDET.EDU.
>
> -- Roy Miller
>    Creator and Owner of DEAF-L
>    (ge0013@siucvmb.siu.edu)
- --

        That is the correct Telnet address for Gallaudet, however, we do not
have an FTP site here. The only way you can access the Gallaudet network is by
having an account here. If you don't have an account, don't waste your time.

        Scott

____________________

*****************************************************************************
* Scott A. Rust       *11srust@gallua.gallaudet.edu *  "A stupid person     *
* Gallaudet University *****************************     can do anything    *
* English Department   *This .sig has been shown to *     except think"     *
* Kendall Green        * cause cancer in laboratory *      -Bob Dobbs, Jr.  *
* Washington DC 20002  * rats. Use only as directed.*                       *
*****************************************************************************
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Date:         Tue, 10 Nov 1992 06:19:12 -0600
From:         /PN=JUDY.TINGLEY/O=DEAFTEK/ADMD=TELEMAIL/C=US/@SPRINT.COM
Subject:      RE: Re:60 Minutes

 <"GGJC-5506-1800/36"*/PN=JUDY.TINGLEY/O=DEAFTEK/ADMD=TELEMAIL/C=US/@sprint.com>

Being in England I missed the show but am also interested in a description of
it.  How old is the girl now?  Did the show explain that profound hearing loss
caused by meningitis is one of the most uncertain to benefit from a cochlear
implant?
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