From: lewc@oakhill.sps.mot.com (Lew Chua-Eoan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.filipino
Subject: Re: Filipino-Chinese Kidnappings
Date: 8 Nov 92 06:22:55 GMT
Article-I.D.: oakhill.1992Nov8.062255.1953
Followup-To: Francis@mpl.ucsd.edu
Distribution: usa
Organization: Austin, Tx.

----------- Part 1 of 4 ---------------------------------------------------
>>From: francis@mpl.ucsd.edu (Francis C Felizardo)
>>First of all, I believe a distinction should be made between military 
>>abuse in areas hostile to military presence like negros, etc... versus 
>>the extortion, murder, and rape of a minority due to ethinic background.
>Not unless you believe that these abuses are limited to places like Negros. 
>Police and military abuse happens/ed in the Metro Manila area also. If 
>Metro Manila is considered hostile to military presence, we might as well 
>say that for the whole nation in which case a distinction is unnecessary.

The distinction is unnecessary, only if one wants to cloud the subject
of racism within philippine society.

>  Their heinous crimes are committed in malls, within the households of their
>victims, in the villages and provinces, during family get-togethers, and 
>parties, and in the middle of populated thoroughfares in broad daylight. 
>People are singled out due to their enthnicity. 

>If you are referring to the CF kidnappings, they are singled out on the 
>basis of their ethnicity *and* economic status. 
                                ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^
You mean supposed econmic status. ( A lot of incidents have involved
poor Filipino-Chinese citizens.)

>My wife and I just got 
>together with two CF friends from college who were vacationing here. I 
>asked them if they and their CF friends are at all worried that they could 
>become kidnapping victims. They said they're not because they aren't rich. 
>As was pointed out earlier, it is believed that rich CF families would 
                                                 ^^^^ ^^ ^^^^^^^^
Again not being rich dosen't stop the kidnappers from singling one out.
In the much publicized case of where the two filipino-chinese youths were
murdered by their abductees.  One youth couldn't pay the ransom so the father
of the other, had to come up with both ransoms.

>rather pay the ransom than report it to the police and this has made them 
>very attractive kidnap victims.

Again it is not only the rich who are abused.  And again the Fil-Chinese
families who have been victimized have due reason to distrust the guardians
of their apparent rights.  Filipino-Chinese are not into the habit of forking
over their savings for the fun of it. Their are underlying reasons for this
distrust. Corruption within the law enforcement agencies is the main culprit 
and the fostering of a "sila" vs "tayo" mentality on both sides of the fence is
a secondary cause.

>If you are referring to crimes the CF community has experienced in general, 
>I still argue that non-CFs have also been preyed on in malls, villages, 
>provinces, family get-togethers, parties and public thoroughfares in broad 
>daylight. This is not a uniquely CF experience.

The the headlines around the world should have read. "Filipino kidnappings"
not "Filipino-Chinese kidnappings".  Sensationalism and commercialism of
an issue may have something to do with it, but I believe there is credence
in the reports and news broadcast.  You seem to suggest that middle-class
and wealthy filipinos of any ethnicity are the prime targets of these
violent crimes this is general contrary to what the media has said.

>>This is unlike the situation in
>>economically depressed provincial states like negros where popular enmity
>>and revolutionary tendencies against the government are born out of economic
>>depression and frustration over the obvious inequities in society, and 
>>where abuse of civilians is in some respect military reaction
       ----- -- --------- -- -- ---- ------- -------- --------
>>to the apparent hostile attitude of the populace at large.
 -- --- -------- ------- -------- -- --- -------- -- -----
>The dimensions of military and police abuse in the Philippines is more 
>complex than you suggest.......

I wasn't trying to suggest otherwise...

>I have been to a beer hall where a police  
>officer got drunk and threatened to beat up his beer buddies. 
>Contractors and construction engineers I know (myself included) have been 
>approached by policemen asking for 'lagay'. In one project in Batangas, 
>laborers who refuse to share part of their wages get beaten up. We and 
>they were not necessarily hostile to the police. All we wanted to do was 
>mind our own business and be left alone. Police and military abuse is not 
>limited to NPA-influenced and controlled territory.

Corruption is endemic within the police and military.  This we both
agree on.  We can even argue that it is no worse then in other societies
like mexico...so on.  But to agrue that military abuse is rampant and
all facets of philippine society is one thing versus
the arguement that there is a plurality in the kidnappings of filipino-citizens.
I do not know of multiple reports of wealthy filipinos being abducted or
kidapped with the alarming frequency I have heard from friends
and relatives, nor have I seen multiple reports in the news of such
events.

>>        Yes, you could say racism happens everywhere in the world but the
>>plurality of these racist acts does not justify their abuse.
>I am not saying that. As I said, I agree that crime is a problem and it has 
>to be solved. It is not a uniquely CF experience.

The news bulletins detail crimes targeted at a minority.  You argue that
the crimes are plural and non-race related.  This is contrary to the
reports.

   - stuff deleted on Ramos, EDSA 1986 and CF support -

>>        It could also be argued that the increased media attention given by
>>the press, both local and abroad (- the current situation has made it
>>to the pages of the New York Times, among other news sources), is wholly
>>valid.  The increasing violence which constitutes your empathic "WAVE" 
>>quotation is real. (This escalation can be corroborated and I know to be
>>true!) 
>>It could be argued that this escalation in violent crime is due inpart to the
>>ineffective actions taken by the present administration (- the construction
>>of the PCC does not make the governments actions effective, only results 
>>validate the effectiveness and resolve of instituted policies,) and the media
>>coverage high-lighting the impunity with which the criminal pertetrate their
>>attacks.  Both elements help to further fuel violence.

>Part of the problem is also that events in the Philippines are considered by 
>the international media newsworthy when it is sensational in nature. Most of 
>what we read from say UPI is a litany of news reports on the kidnapping 
>problem, the CPP insurgency, the MNLF, the Marcos family. It has gotten to 
>a point where 'no news is good news.' If our whole understanding and 
>exposure to American society is limited to viewing episodes of Miami Vice, 
>then we would be led to believe that American society is a drug-oriented 
>society that is overrun by drug gangs and corruption and the police are 
>fighting a losing battle against it.

You are blurring the distinction between accurate media reporting and
soap-opera dramas.  It one bases his understanding of his environment
on TV soap-opera dramas then it is to his detriment. 
I believe people have more sense then this, they weigh the reporting
objectively based on the facts presented and the credability of its
source. Sensationalism is part of the media game, but wrong to
to suggest accurate news reports are soap-opera plots made to entertain
the public.  You are comparing fiction vs facts.
Wasn't it you, Francis who made the statement to the effect that:
"(you) wouldn't dismiss the Philippine media as sheep. The Philippine 
media has been known to do a fair bit of critical reporting. "  Why are
you harping on the media now?


>   - old stuff deleted on Lew's allegation that the Ramos program is 
>     ineffective and inept due to politicking to the detriment of the 
>     CF community -

>>discussion continued:
>>"The Ramos government is publicly abhorred by each new act of
>>extrotion, rape, and murder inflicted upon the Filipino-Chinese
>>community, but its actions to safeguard these very citizens are non-
>>existent, or at best woefully inadequate......"
>>                ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^
>>I was suggesting that whatever is in place is inadequate and almost
>>non-existent.
>I still have not seen you make a strong case for either. How does frequency 
>of CF kidnapping compare in October and in May (before Ramos took over)? 
>How many kidnap rings has the government busted? How many criminals have 
>been captured or killed? How many victims have been released without paying 
>ransom in October? How many in May?
>
>If you can cite stats on these that support your argument, then you can 
>make the case that indeed the program is ineffective. But just because you 
>or I say so doesn't make it so.

One reason why I haven't cited the stats you refer 
I do not think the governments stats are accurate they suggest
reported kidnappings of Filipino-Chinese at about 14 a month (between
the months of Aug and Sept).  I have heard that the frequency had risen to three
per day (including the unreported kidnappings ).  I do not have
the stats for this month.  But the viable data I have seems to suggest an
increase.
As far as kidnapping rings busted and criminals indited...I know
of one accomplice who was accused but due to legalities the person is still free.
And ofcourse the much publicized Estrada bust where his people killed
one corrupt police officer and one soldier.

>>In appointing Estrada as crime czar, Ramos accorded him full powers in 
>>acting on behalf of the President. The crime czar job is a cabinet level 
>>appointment and like all cabinet secretaries, his actions are considered 
>>actions of the president. He has all the resources available to the president
>>to carry out his specific mandate.
>So have these Presidential powers help him out in his legal battles? 
                                                       ----- -------
>These broad powers seem pretty tame in his battles with the courts?
>(I was suggesting that the conspirators use of the courts has effectively
                                                               -----------
>negated legal resources granted to him by the President.  So what 
 ------- ----- ---------
>sort of power does Estrada really have?)

Unless you tell me which legal battles you are referring to, I cannot 
respond to these questions. Details, details. Last time I read the news, 
I got the impression that many of the arrested kidnappers and their 
associates are in jail.

>>>It seems odd that such a difficult job was given to the ex-mayor of San 
>>>Juan. 
>>who is also the vice president, a long-time politician, the scion of a 
>>political family, a former senator, a popular figure with a tough as nails 
>>can do image, and yes a successful town executive. Estrada is no 
>>lightweight. 
>I agree, he's no neophyte politician, but nobody said anything about his 
>not being a capable politician.  We we're argueing about his appointment
>as a law enforcement figure by Ramos -  "a politican does not a 
>(effective) Crime Czar make".
>Being a good politician is not a disqualification either. As I have said 
>before, many pundits thought he had what it takes to do the job. You seem 
>to suggest that Ramos effectively conned Estrada into taking the job to 
>be his scapegoat. Obviously, Estrada and his advisers didn't think they 
>were being used as scapegoats. Estrada could have refused the job if he 
>felt he wasn't up to it or if he felt that he was being used by Ramos.

Neither does not mean that he was not stirred into a difficult position on
the assumption that he would fail.  You called it a "conn", well on thing
about a conn is evidently the victims falling for the ploy.  I guess thats
why people call it a conn - its not obvious.

>   - stuff deleted on General/Mayor Lim -
>>>Maybe. However, Alfredo Lim was elected Mayor of Manila and from what I 
>>>understand, he wants to keep that position. 
>>It is my opinion that if the president really wanted to put an end to these
>>criminal acts he would use the resources at his disposal to do so. I believe
>>that people like Alfredo Lim would be interested in assiting the presidents
>>policy if the chance presented itself.
>>No. He does not have to quite his functional role as Mayor of Manila. In 
>>fact, actions on Lim's part would be is in accord with his role as
>>Mayor of Manila.
>Mayor Lim HAS his own anti-crime task force which works with Estrada's PACC. 
>As mayor, peace and order in his jurisdiction is an important responsibility.
>Although Lim is not the crime czar, he is also working on the crime problem.

Yes, but I thought you were inferring, in your previous rebuttal, that both
the President and the Mayor had to quite their jobs inorder to address the
crime kidnapping situation in the city and the country as a whole 
I guess we agree that officials don't have to quit their respective jobs 
inorder for them to address the crime situation as it stands.

>>>No. He is the president of the country. Although crime is a big problem 
>>>in his administration, there are other problems that are at least as 
>>>important, e.g., the economy, jobs, the communist insurgency, the Muslim 
>>>separatist movement, foreign relations, etc. The crime job is best left 
>>>to someone with one specific responsibility - crime. 
>>Yes, he is president of the country. And no, he does not have to quite
>>his job as president of the country.  In his law and order presidential
>>campaign he promised to get the country inorder in a "100 days". He ran
>>on a campaign to erradicate crime he should stick to his guns.
>But when we were talking about people who should be the crime czar, you wrote:
>> But the most obvious choice would of course be the President Himself,
>>he was a four star general in the AFP and commander at one time of the 
>>metropolitan police force. 

>All I'm saying is that Ramos cannot be the crime czar because he has other 
>responsibilities. The crime czar job was created by Ramos to specifically 
>address this problem. And although you obviously disagree, he thought, as 
>many people did, that Estrada was the best person for the job.

I think I gave you the wrong message.  What I was referring to, was the possiblity
that Ramos may have knowledge as to the possible authors of these
crime syndicates, within the military and constabulary.  And if so, he
should do everything in his power to investigate, incarcerate and prune
these criminals from the ranks of the military and police thereby helping
the crime prevention effort.  I apologize for pointing to Ramos just
after talking about other possible prospective "crime czars".


END OF PART 1
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