From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: casualties during the Intifadah
Date: 16 Oct 92 05:52:37 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <1992Oct15.102928.21278@discus.technion.ac.il> davidba@carmel.technion.ac.il (David Ben_Ami) writes:
>In article <4053@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Anisa Alnoor Aldoubosh) writes:

>>But you did *not* say this in your former posting.  You did not separate
the two factors - you just said that (to memory) the number of Palestinians
who died in the intefada were at the hands of other Palestinians and you
did not even mention Israeli undercover terrorist squads.  Furthermore, you
>                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  
>Excuse me, Anisa. Your definition of terrorism is highly imaginative.

Excuse my frankness, David.  Why don't you go ask the Palestinians
living in the West Bank.   I'm postive that they will tell you it
isn't in their imagination.

Besides, for someone that totally denies that it exists must be the
one living in a dreamworld.

>You may not like their actions and methods but throwing a buzzword of
>Terror anywhere. This people are not targeting civilian population that
>does not have any vconnection to the struggle, instead they try to
>eliminate the gangs of carefully-pinpointed agitators with lots of blood 
>on their hand. This is counter-sunversive operation and not even
>maginally close to terrorism. The "hunted" men are heavily armed and
>often open fire on the soldiers. 

Terrorism is a very strong word.  Too strong that when the shoe fits,
some people refuse to wear it.  It is a matter of *fact* that they
are targeting the civilian population - many innocent people have been
murdered in cold blood while trying to catch *anyone* who is connected
to the uprising - and in the mask of disquise, it is often difficult if
not impossible, to catch the terrorist.  Instead, it is conveniently
blamed on other Palestinians who have no legal recourse or defense in
their favor.

>>justified Israel's totalitarian and inhumanitarian policies on Palestinians
>>in the occupied territories by suggesting that the Palestinians who oppose
>>this are the ones to blame for their deaths.  That is pretty damn racist,
>
>Your easy on buzzwords Anisa, where excatly do you see Racism?

From the same racism of people who deny the Holocaust ever existed.

>You have to understand that the Arabs in the territories are not
>engaging a non-violent campeign in the territories. They are running
>one of the cruelest bloody campeigns in history and they would not 
>have been tolerated in ANY other (western and certainly not Arab).

Same text, different speaker.  When is your government going to realize
that the problem isn't going away (unless they are purposely allowing
it to happen for their political and social agenda), when is your government
going to stop using violence and human rights violations as a means of
controlling masses of people, and finally,  when is your government going to
take the responsibility for their actions?  The word your people hated so
much during WW2 is the same one they are applying to subjegate another race.

>I dare say that if the Jews were 1/100 as insolent and rebelious in 
>any Arab country there wouldn't have been a single Jew surviving
>there. I think that if the Palestinian would have tried to pull their
>tricks in an Arab country they would have suffered much harsher and
>swifter measures. The Intifada would have been crashed in weeks in even
>the most benign Arab countries.

Here again is the same, redundant philosophy about the other 'bad Arab' states.
I simply do not see Palestinians suffering in other Arab countries as they do
in Israel (with possibly the situation after the Gulf War in Kuwait), and I
certainly not with the same crisis that the people face/have faced in the
territories.  You can bring up trivial incidents, but it just doesn't measure
up.
 
>I think that people like you seem to project your own vices into others
>(inhumanitarian and totalitarian).

Oh, *my* views are inhumane and totalitarian?  Your opinion doesn't hold
any truth or any substenance to try and prove anything.

>>Mr. Stein.  And I would like you to pick up any newspaper and magazine from
>>the time of the intefada to now to see what kind of tactics the "IDF" uses.
>>Don't you consider death squads to be a terrorist measure?  How about
>>confiscatory taxes?  Exile?
>
>Well, my dear Anisa. I think that any sane government would use these 
>methods against those who try to throw her out. Need I mention Britain

Try and prove how a disempowered people can possibly 'throw out' the
state of Israel.  Go ahead and justifying any means to an end.  It just
cries out racism.

>Terrorism must be fought! What do you expect the Israelis to give you
>the throats to cut? 

Yes, and oppression must also be fought too!  What do you expect the
Palestinians to give you our throats to cut?

>Death Squads does not exist in the territories.  Period!

And this is a fact that you can prove?
 
>You yourself cited the Number 66 of expulsions in over 4 years. Does
>this look to you an overreaction? All these expulsions are handpicked
>troublemakers who agitate and bring havoc to their fellow Arabs.

Actually, I think it was an underestimation.  All the "handpicked
troublemakers" are those arrested for being connected to the
uprising, including some activists for peace and journalists, who
were not tried in a court of law or given any legal rights.  It is
a matter of fact that *any* form of self-expression (including
displaying the colors of the Palestinian flag in any form) carries
very stiff penalties and is considered a crime.

What will the government think up next as a means of solving the
"Palestinian Problem"?
 
>>Protecting themselves?  Protecting themselves!!!  We wish to fight,
>>violent if and when necessary, to protect our rights, dignity, and
>>self-worth that Israel has almost succeeded in taking away from us!
>
>You wish to fight violent, well what do you expect back? Flowers??

When you wish to violate human rights, well what do you expect back?
Hugs and kisses??

>>And when adults disquise themselves to go committ murder in cold blood,
>>shoot to kill defenseless people, demolish the homes of innocent families,
>>and arm themselves with deadly weapons to attack rock-throwing children,
>
>I think that heavily armed Palestinians who refuse to stop when ordered
>to by soldiers are fair game, sepecially when they shoot first but even
>if they don't!

And so fair and just is this Israeli form of democracy, that any Palestinian
even seen carrying a weapon is target practice for civilian, police, and
military alike!  But I suppose your going to attempt to justify that to!

>>its appropriate to threat them as violent individuals, not protect them
>>and justify their actions as innocent adults.
>
>They are soldiers who are trying to arrest wanted people, their diguise
>is a perfectly legitimate tactic.

Since they have every legal means at their disposal, why bother with the
disguise (unless it is just too convenient to blame other Palestinians
for the deaths)?  Why not just go in and track the people down like
animals and murder them and anyone who gets in your way?  Sounds like a
wonderful, workable solution!

>There were some incidents when some soldiers stepped out of line, this
>is indeed very regretful and I wish all these men will be properly
>punished but that does not mean that they are terrorists!!!

Yes, they are heros - greatly respected and appreciated for doing their
duty.

Anisa

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast