From: mhulsey@hestia.fcs.uga.edu (Martin Hulsey)
Subject: Re: PETA in hot water
Followup-To: talk.politics.animals
Organization: Dept. Foods & Nutrition, Univ. of GA
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 20:40:08 GMT

In article <BzDGnL.18F@wpg.com>, russ@wpg.com (Russell Lawrence) wrote:
> 
>[...]
> 
> I've truly enjoyed your hand waving demonstrations, but the fact 
> remains that the Maryland State Court of Appeals overturned 
> Taub's conviction when it ruled that state anti-cruelty 
> statutes don't apply to federally financed animal experiments.

The fact, that you & PETA falsely deny, is that the conviction was
overturned for *more* than a jurisdictional technicality.  The appeals
court explicitly upheld Taub's claim that he did not mistreat his animals. 

 
> [various legal arguments deleted]
> 
> Are you an attorney, Martin?  The reason I'm asking this question is
> that you've led us to believe that medical doctors aren't 
> qualified to publicly offer their opinions on nutritional 
> matters, yet for some strange reason you seem to think that a PhD in 
> "nutrition science" has qualified you to expound your opinions in 
> such diverse areas as law, medicine, history, etc, etc.  How
> come?  

Again, doofus, this is Usenet.  On Usenet, I may "expound opinions" on any
topic. 

Some medical doctors are eminently qualified in matters of nutrition. 
Barnard is not one of them.
 
> >> Did HHS ever reinstate Taub's funding?
> > 
> > No, but their failure to reinstate the grant does not indicate wrongdoing
> > on Taub's part...  
> 
> So you say.

Yes, and so did the segment that you deleted.
 
>[...]
> > I have no law degree, and yes, it is irrelevant.
> 
> Then perhaps it's irrelevant whether or not Neil Barnard has a degree
> in "nutrition science".

No.  Nutrition credentials are important for those who formulate or suggest
modification of dietary recommendations.  They are unimportant here in TPA.

>[...]
> > Gerone apparently accepts Pacheco's account of events.  I do not.  I do
> > agree that the incident has heightened awareness on both sides of the
> > issue.
> 
> Do you think you're better informed on such matters than the director
> of the Delta Regional Primate Center?   In deference to your proof-by-
> credentials line of reasoning, are your credentials better than
> Gerone's?   Have you had any hands-on experience with the Silver
> Spring Monkeys, BTW?   

I am not aware of Gerone's credentials, nor are they relevant.  He offered
his opinion and I offered mine.

> > There was a deterioration of animal care in Taub's lab in the three-week
> > period prior to the police raid, but I question that Taub was at fault.
> 
> Who was at fault, Martin?

First, I would blame the animal caretakers who suddenly and mysteriously
stopped coming to work.  Second, I would blame Pacheco, who noted these
conditions in detail yet did absolutely nothing to correct them.  Remember
the "water dish" analogy that you have repeatedly ignored.

>[...]
> 
> Amazing.

You are easily amazed.  A Poisson analysis of the work records would
indicate that the chance of a person who previously missed only 1 of 423
workdays suddenly missing 7 of 15 workdays to be astronomical (CFAAR
Newsletter, op.cit., p. 3).
 
> I cannot claim that you're a paid employee of the National 
> Association for Biomedical Research,

Let me clear up your confusion.  I am neither an employee or a member of
NABR.

Likewise, I cannot claim that the "WP" in "WP Group" stands for "Waffling
prevarication,"  but it surely seems that way.

> but it's obvious that your 
> innuendos, your hypocritical intellectual standards, your 
> name-calling, etc, etc may not be accidental.

Be specific when making such charges.

You are guilty of the following "hypocritical intellectual standards":

1.  Repeatedly insisting that I post my credentials while refusing to post
yours.

2.  Insisting that I answer your questions, less than 30 hours old,
"without further delay" when you repeatedly avoid my questions for weeks.

> > When Taub left for a three-week vacation in 1981, he thought that his
> > laboratory and animals were in good hands.  After all, in addition to the
> > normal staff of two animal caretakers, there was Alex Pacheco.  Pacheco
> > falsely represented himself as a person interested in learning about
> > research.  Taub's only fault was trusting Pacheco.
> 
> So you say.  Have you got any proof?

When Pacheco applied for a position in Taub's lab in May of 1981, he told
Taub that he "thought that he wanted to become a laboratory scientist."  He
did not tell Taub that he was president of PETA (CFAAR Newsletter, op.
cit., p. 3).  

--
mhulsey@hestia.fcs.uga.edu                      Society for Neuroscience
Martin G. Hulsey                              National Rifle Association
Dept. Foods & Nutrition      Society for the Study of Ingestive Behavior
University of Ga.    North American Association for the Study of Obesity
Newsgroups: talk.politics.animals