HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: Where do orcs go upon dying?
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 04:21:17 GMT

In <1992Dec19.182435.11632@uwasa.fi> a70860@uwasa.fi (Carl Patrik Andila) writes:

>	A related matter, the souls of Saruman, Sauron, and many others
>were denied entry into the land of the Valar -- but were did they go after
>that? Tolkien left a hole in his reasoning here it seems. Morgoth's case
>appears to have been unique, no others were imprisoned in the same way.

"For he will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him
in his beginning ... and he will be maimed forever, becoming a mere
spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again
grow or take shape"       III, 190

This is about Sauron, I'd guess it applies to Sauruman, too.
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire kitchen		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very three-sided gauze pad.
 |warren@      But the chef
/ nysernet.org is not hungry at all.
From: dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Morality of slaying Orcs (was Re: Thomas Covenant)
Date: 21 Dec 1992 14:02:40 GMT
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: access.digex.com

In article <7127@sersun1.essex.ac.uk> leitm@essex.ac.uk (Leith M F) writes:
>The long standing feud between Orcs and Dwarves/Elves was clearly a motivation 
>for Gimli and Legolas slaying them, at whatever battle they should be in.
>The game, IMO, was simply a way of keeping their morale up in a desperate
>situation.

But Gimli, at least, often makes comments that indicate that he looks 
forward to getting into a desperate situation that requires him to kill
orcs.  It really does seem to me to be more sport than anything else
when he makes comments like (paraphrasing), "Oh boy, battle, I haven't 
chopped anything but wood since Moria!"

>>  In fact, the only heroes of LOTR that seem to be in the
>>habit of letting enemies live in potential combat situations are the 
>>hobbits, starting with Bilbo holding back from killing Gollum.
>
>Wrong.  All of the Dunlanders who surrendered at Helms Deep were released
>(after an oath and a little burial work).

Which was after the battle, not during it.

>The fact we aren't subjected to endless guilt trips among the
>good guys doesn't mean they don't feel any guilt at slaying fellow men.

But there is no evidence of such guilt.  

I agree that orcs generally need killing, and that the heroes in LOTR
are justified in all of the killing that they do.  I still think that
it would be nice to see them reflect on the moral ambiguity of
killing sentients, no matter what the circumstances.  I found that
refreshing in the Covenant books.
From: paulg@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Paul A Gunderson)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Is "Lord of the Rings" on-line somewhere?
Date: 22 Dec 1992 16:09:45 GMT
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.4

In article <1992Dec22.013551.18846@athena.mit.edu> writings@athena.mit.edu (Writers Club) writes:
>I'm told that Tolkien, through some error, did not ever copyright
>"The Lord of the Rings" or "The Hobbit". Although one book company
>pays him royalties nonetheless, there have been other book companies
>which (annoyingly?) have published the works without his permission
>(or even knowledge!).

Well...  Tolkien's English publisher, George Allen & Unwin, neglected to
obtain the USA copyright for _LotR_ when it was originally published in the
mid-50s.  As I have related here before, Ace Books took advantage of this
error.  Tolkien, Houghton-Mifflin and Ballantine brought out a *revised*
version of _LotR_ in the mid-60s.

So...  The original _LotR_ is still uncovered by copyright protection.  If
someone were very brave, very studious, etc., s/he could transcribe the
original version.  It's only about 100,000 words long.

_The Hobbit_ never had this problem, although Tolkien revised this one
also.  Legally, no one can transcribe this book.  At least until the
copyright runs out.

>Can I get "Lord of the Rings" on-line somewhere?

Probably not.

>Please send email -- I do not read this group normally.

Then you may never know...  :-)

>-W

----
Paul Gunderson
paulg@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: forb0004@student.tc.umn.edu (Eric Forbis )
Subject: Re: Elven Anatomy
Organization: University of Minnesota
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 00:38:20 GMT

In article <1993Jan1.064511.27715@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> mozart@coos.dartmouth.edu (Sting) writes:
>Path: news.cis.umn.edu!umn.edu!spool.mu.edu!think.com!enterpoop.mit.edu!snorkelwacker.mit.edu!bu.edu!dartvax!coos.dartmouth.edu!mozart
>From: mozart@coos.dartmouth.edu (Sting)
>Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
>Subject: Re: Elven Anatomy
>Message-ID: <1993Jan1.064511.27715@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>
>Date: 1 Jan 93 06:45:11 GMT
>References: <92366.102452IO10407@MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
>Sender: news@dartvax.dartmouth.edu (The News Manager)
>Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
>Lines: 20
>In <92366.102452IO10407@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> ROB <IO10407@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> writes:
>
>>  This past weekend a friend and I had an argument over whether or not
>>Tolkien's Eldar had pointed ears or not
>
>
>I have noticed that in Tolkien's glossary of the elven language (which occurs
>in the Silmarillion, as well as various further works by other authors), the
>words for "ear" and "leaf" are closely related in Elven, which would suggest
>that they probably had something of a leaf-shaped ear.
>

Which leaf shape? 
---------

Eric Forbis      forb0004@student.tc.umn.edu
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: watson@sce.carleton.ca (Stephen Watson)
Subject: Re: Eowyn
Organization: Carleton University
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 15:23:41 GMT

seurer@rchland.vnet.ibm.com (Bill Seurer) writes:

>In article <1h4ligINN9qm@mirror.digex.com>, dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) writes:
>|> Also, we have no direct evidence whether Eomer continues warring or
>|> not.

>I beleive that at the end of The Return of the King (or in its appendices)
>it says something about the friendship of Aragorn and Eomer continuing and
>ever after the standards of the two were seen on the battlefield together.
>Someone have a copy handy who can quote this part?
>-- 

In Appendix A, at the end of the section on "The House of Eorl", we
read that King Elessar still had considerable work cleaning up the
"hatreds and evils" left by Sauron, and that Eomer, in fulfillment of
the Oath of Eorl, went with him on these battles.  So presumably, any
militarily-minded Rohirrim would have had opportunity to follow his (or
*her*) desires.  Do with this fact what you will ;-)

--
==Steve Watson: watson@sce.carleton.ca===Carleton University, Ottawa, Ontario==
| The above is the output of a 7th-order Markovian analysis of all posts on   |
| this group for the past month.  Not only is it not Carleton's opinion, it's |
| not even *my* opinion: it's really just a mish-mash of all YOUR opinions!   |
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: writings@athena.mit.edu (Writers Club)
Subject: Is "Lord of the Rings" on-line somewhere?
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 01:35:51 GMT

I'm told that Tolkien, through some error, did not ever copyright
"The Lord of the Rings" or "The Hobbit". Although one book company
pays him royalties nonetheless, there have been other book companies
which (annoyingly?) have published the works without his permission
(or even knowledge!).

Can I get "Lord of the Rings" on-line somewhere?

Please send email -- I do not read this group normally.

-W





Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: Eowyn (was Re: Elf-human pairings)
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 10:17:03 GMT

In <1gkl34INNhv@mirror.digex.com> dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) writes:

>In any event, after the War of the Ring there was not much need for
>battling women.  In fact, there was not much need for battling men
>either.  Thus all of the major characters settled into peaceful roles
>of one sort or another.  It was no more a cop-out for Eowyn to become
>Faramir's wife then it was for Faramir to settle down as Prince of Ithillian.

"For though Sauron had passed, the hatreds and evils that he bred had
not died, and the King of the West had many enemies to subdue before
the White Tree could grow in peace.  And wherever King Elassar went
with war King Eomer went with him; and beyond the Sea of Rhun and on
the far fields of the South the thunder of the cavalry of the mark was
heard, and the White Hourse upon Green flew in many winds until Eomer
grew old."             III, 438
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire hall		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very narrow ***.
 |warren@      But the cabbie
/ nysernet.org is not concerned at all.
From: d91-jkl@nada.kth.se (Johan Klintholm)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Translation of "Dark-fire" Please!
Date: 1 Jan 93 12:02:38 GMT
Reply-To: d91-jkl@nada.kth.se (Johan Klintholm)
Organization: Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden
Originator: d91-jkl@alv.nada.kth.se



Hello fellow madmen... :)

Excuse me for taking up some valuable space in this group by asking 
something not exactly related to mr J.R.R himself.

This is the case:

I'm a member of a guild within the Swedish Tolkien Society (Forodrim),
and as a memeber thereof (new member) I will have to pick an alias to 
go with my character. This alias will then be used during special 
meetings and live roleplaying and so on. That is why I want to pick an
alias that is as "correct" as possible, i.e. an alias with meaning and
spelled out in Elven tounge.

The name I had in mind was "Dark-fire", a kind of paradox in itself but
a name to go with both Tolkien's world and other mythology where a fire
always turns blue and dark when a warlock goes by. Any free translation 
into (Quenya..?), like -The fire that goes dark- or -Fire goes dark by 
magic- et.c. will do. (But preferrably as grim as possible. He He.. 8> )

Assignment: * Translate "Dark-fire" into Tengwar writing. (Quenya..?!)
              (And include the equivalent in Human tounge as well,
               "Mor-xxxx" or whatever it turns out to be. :>      )

            * Alternativly, if somebody knows how, a translation into 
              the dark tounge of Mordor.

             --- Why not both?   ;) ---

PS! I read some time ago about someone that claimed to have compiled a
    list of some thousand words in Elven tounge, ring any bell?.
    That list and other works as Grammatics or whatever you have spilled
    your sweat into compiling, I would be VERY greatful to at least hear 
    about!

Please forgive and correct any misconceptions regarding languages in Middle
earth.

Your servant forevermore,

"Dark-fire"

 ___________________________ ______________________________
I       _                   I                              I
I   _I I I I     . I   I    I  Name :   Johan Klintholm    I 
I  I I I_I I _   I I_/ I    I  Email: d91-jkl@nada.kth.se  I
I  I_I  _I I   I_I I \ I_   I  Voice: +46 8 367157 (home)  I
I___________________________I______________________________I
I                                                          I
I  As soon as you're born, you're dying...    Iron Maiden  I
I__________________________________________________________I
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk)
Subject: Re: Tom Bombadil again
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 06:05:36 GMT

jim@rand.org (Jim Gillogly) writes:
>I don't buy either of them -- I think TB is a separate creation outside
>the context of the Valar and Maiar.  I think he's something like the
>embodiment of Arda, and implied by and created by the song of the Ainur,
>which is to say something like an earth elemental.  If he were Maia then,
>like Gandalf and Sauron, he would be affected by the One Ring.  The Valar
>are well-known and accounted for, so he isn't one of them.
>	Jim Gillogly

Why would he be affected by the One Ring if he were Maia?  The One Ring
can only tempt people with power.  Tom Bombadil knows who he is (even though
we don't) and doesn't have vast visions of things which he could do.  As
it was put, "he is his own master".  As such, the Ring would have no lure
for him.  He would have no real use for it other than as a gold ring.

Gandalf and Saruman were tempted by their need for knowledge and their
general opposition to Sauron.  Saruman was corrupted, Gandalf chose not
to pursue his fancies and thus was able to resist the Ring.  If Gandalf did
not have any desire to dethrone Sauron, the Ring would have little hold on
him.  But as it was, Galadriel and Gandalf were tempted with becoming like
Sauron -- replacing him instead of just destroying all of his works.  Bombadil
was not on either side of the War.  In some sense, he is much like Beorn,
only more so.  Beorn had little concern for things other than his animals,
and only hunted goblins because they were, well, evil and cruel and bothered
everyone around him.  Since the Beornings are Men (at least is says so in my
Middle-Earth dictionary), a Maiar would have even greater power and greater
spirit.  A Maiar might be even less concerned with Middle-Earth (having
gerater power and thus being able to choose and maintain a better lifestyle).

					Michael Lewchuk
					lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: sodonnell@UMASSD.EDU (Sandy O'Donnell)
Subject: Re: Question: LOTR Wizards
Reply-To: sodonnell@UMASSD.EDU
Organization: UMASS DARTMOUTH, NO. DARTMOUTH, MA.
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 20:10:15 GMT

In article <lewchuk.725051453@therien>, lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk) writes:
>
>Then what is the Flame of Anor that Gandalf wields?  The fire of this
>greater god or the Third Ring?
>
>					Michael Lewchuk
>					lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA
 The secret fire: The Holy Spirit, the power giving substance and
life to the Creation of Iluvatar. It was this light, also called
the flame of Anor that Gandalf served and the evil followers of
Melkor and Sauron envied and feared. Probably also the same as the
 Flame Imperishable......from my Guide to Middle Earth
...........................Sandy

Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk)
Subject: Re: Redemption in LOTR
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 18:28:32 GMT

solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay) writes:
>In article <1h7cdeINN2ca@mirror.digex.com> dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) writes:
>>It occurs to me that never in Tolkien's writings is there a story of
>>true redemption.  
>Arguably the Dead (as in "The Paths Of", not as in "The
>Grateful") are an example. They worshipped Sauron in the Dark
>Years, and betrayed their oath to Gondor; yet they eventually
>redeemed themselves and found peace.
>Andrew Solovay    

The Dead did not seem to have much choice in the matter.  The magic stone
of Isildur bound them to their oath, and they HAD to fulfill it one way or
another.  They chose not to in life, therefore they were forced to in death.
It was never indicated whether they were "redeemed", just that they vanished
after fulfilling their oath.

					Michael Lewchuk
					lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: rlcarr@athena.mit.edu (Richard L. Carreiro)
Subject: Re: Technology and Morality in LOTR
Organization: Digitopolitan Embassy to the US
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 22:20:13 GMT

In article <steph.724635365@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu> steph@pegasus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson) writes:
>>steph@perseus.cs.uiuc.edu (Dale Stephenson) writes:
>>>I think the ring is an *entity*, trapped in an object.  Not passive, and
>>>possessed of semi-free will.
>>
>>It's certainly not an entity of it's own.  Like the Elven rings, it is at
>>least partly a piece of Sauron's own innate power.  The advantage of the
>
>I disagree -- while I do think it has part of Sauron's power, I don't believe
>it is simply a tool for expansion of power.  As a matter of fact, I see very
>little evidence that the Ring ever tried to get back to Sauron.  It would 
>have been far happier with a suitable tool it could dominate (like Boromir)
>than with the domineering Lord of the Rings.  And in the end, it was the Ring's
>own pride that caused its destruction.

Aha!  The Ring is obviously another of Stormbringer's incarnations.... :-)
--
Rich Carreiro
ARPA: rlcarr@athena.mit.edu
UUCP: ...!mit-eddie!mit-athena!rlcarr
BITNET: rlcarr@athena.mit.edu
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA (Michael Lewchuk)
Subject: Re: Bombadil etc.
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 19:27:07 GMT

mvoorhis@granite.WPI.EDU (Michael C Voorhis) writes:
>Why would Eru have to send anyone to Middle earth to `get the lay of the
>land'?  Everything that ever happened there was as a result of Eru's
>thought... He knew what would be happening, when, where, how, who, etcetera.
>If bombadil was sent as an observer, it was done a *long* time before there
>were any problems at all in middle earth.  Why would bombadil be set to
>watch over the eastern Shire before there were hobbits or elves or trees or
>men there?

Because he was sent to watch over Arda.  The hobbits, elves, and Men were
taken care of by the Valar and Maiar of Ea.  The Great Wars and the fates
of Elves and Men were the dominion of the Valar and Maiar.  But the Valar
and Maiar never personally interfered with Arda itself.  They could fight
Sauron and Melkor, manufacture things necessary for Elves and Men, even
create new species, but they never seemed to play with Arda itself since
Arda was created by the vision of Illuvitar and they didn't have the right
or duty to play with it.  The only way they could change it was to invoke
Illuvitar (which seemed to require a concensus among the Valar that something
real bad was happening and they had better stop it).

Thus, the Valar and Maiar seemed to regard Arda as Illuvitar's "domain" while
their domain was Elves and Men and Dwarves and Ents and all other sentients
of Arda.  Bombadil was probably sent there for the same reason as Gandalf:
to make sure that at least something survived the Great Wars and that Sauron
and Melkor didn't somehow manage to devastate the entire surface of Arda,
and to take necessary action to maintain (at least his section of) the surface
of Arda in accordance with Illuvitar's plan.  Goldberry may have been a
water-Maia sent to maintain the rivers of Arda, or at least her local stream.
Note: Gandalf was conerned with sentients (Men, Elves, Hobbits, the Great
Wars) while Bombadil was concerned with nature (plants, animals, ground).

It is also possible that Bombadil is a Maiar Exile, similar to the Elven
Exiles: he willingly chose to leave Ea to go to Arda and is now fated to
remain there until some time in the future, doing whatever he can to maintain
Arda in terms of the wishes of Illuvitar.

So my conclusion is that:
1.  Bombadil is a spirit sent to watch over Arda itself, not its sentients.
2.  He may have either willingly gone, gone in Exile, or been sent by
    one of the Valar or Illuvitar (sent by Illuvitar meaning some Maiar
    were held back from Ea until the creation of Arda, when they went directly
    from Outside into Arda, probably without having lunch in Ea).

>	Mike >	(mvoorhis@wpi.wpi.edu)

					Michael Lewchuk
					lewchuk@cs.UAlberta.CA
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: solovay@netcom.com (Andrew Solovay)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Redemption in LOTR
Date: 22 Dec 92 18:55:52 GMT
Organization: People's Front of Judea

In article <1h7cdeINN2ca@mirror.digex.com> dzik@access.digex.com (Joseph Dzikiewicz) writes:
>It occurs to me that never in Tolkien's writings is there a story of
>true redemption.  
>
>There are tales of decent people who do evil acts that they later regret
>(Maedhros and some of the acts of the sons of Feanor spring to mind),
>but there are no tales where a person becomes evil (ie, works for
>Morgoth or Sauron) and later regrets it and joins the forces of
>goodness.

Arguably the Dead (as in "The Paths Of", not as in "The
Grateful") are an example. They worshipped Sauron in the Dark
Years, and betrayed their oath to Gondor; yet they eventually
redeemed themselves and found peace.
-- 
Andrew Solovay    
                "I know that, in America and under capitalism,
                 I am the freest woman in history."
                                --- Camille Paglia
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
From: schere@aix.rpi.edu (Mithrandir)
Subject: Re: copywrite and some other intresting stuff. MUSHing
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 14:15:54 GMT

In article <1066@blue.cis.pitt.edu> astinus+@pitt.edu (Mark E Porterfield) writes:
>Is it true Tolkien didn't copywrite some stuff??? I can't believe it.
>
>Anyway, I know this is not the general place to annouce things of this
>nature but....
>
>
>For those of you who know what MUSHing is there is a Tolkien themed MUSH
>running out there.  Access is restricted so you would have to request

[stuff deleted]

>
>Anyone intrested should e-mail me for the address and the guest acccess until
>Manwe and Varda are back from break to create actual accounts.
>
>Mark E. Porterfield
>Master Elrond

There is a MUD already running that contains most of Eriador. It is
called MUME and the address is :  lbdsun4.epfl.ch 4000
I find it extremely good.

Namarie,
Mithrandir
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Many are my names in many countries.  Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkun to 
the Dwarves; Olorin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the 
South Incanus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not.
From: forb0004@student.tc.umn.edu (Eric Forbis )
Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien
Subject: Re: Should LOTR movie be made?
Date: 22 Dec 92 04:59:38 GMT
Organization: University of Minnesota

I don't know if movies are the appropriate medium; to render the trilogy 
faithfully will require at least 2- 3 hours for each of the 6 books. I doubt 
whether you'll be able to convince anyone to finance a 6- part movie, much 
less direct it. 

Has anyone considered using the TV miniseries format, as in _The Civil War_? 
Time wouldn't be such a critical issue, but getting the big- name actors 
I've seen mentioned here might be. 

---------

Eric Forbis      forb0004@student.tc.umn.edu