HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: alderson@elaine46.Stanford.EDU (Rich Alderson)
Subject: Re: Bulgarians - descendents of a Finn...
Originator: alderson@leland.Stanford.EDU
Reply-To: alderson@elaine46.Stanford.EDU (Rich Alderson)
Organization: Stanford University Academic Information Resources
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 93 01:29:15 GMT

In article <Jan.6.16.07.53.1993.13867@pilot.njin.net>, hubey@pilot (Hubey) writes:

>No, I was referring to the book Mallory, In Search of the Indo-Europeans.
>
>One of the evidences and rationales (among some archeological stuff and the
>beech/salmon stuff) is that taking into account the various
>expansions/transitions, the descendant language that stayed closer to the
>'homeland' --since it would not have any problems with the substratum or the
>invaders/dominators--would experience the least changes, whereas more changes
>would be found among the descendants as they moved out further
>assimilating/domineering other-language speakers.

I see.

However, languages change whether or not they encounter speakers of other
languages.  Thus, there is no language in the Indo-European family that is any
closer to the Ursprache than any other at the same time depth, for some notion
of closeness.

That is, the phonology and/or the morphology and/or the syntax will be changed
from that of the parent language.

(I will define "parent" in another post.)

Besides, given current thinking on the reconstruction of Proto-Indo-European,
somewhere at a midpoint between the Eastern Goths and the Western Armenians
would be best under your proposed model.  There are problems with that location
as well.
-- 
Rich Alderson   'I wish life was not so short,' he thought.  'Languages take
                such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about.'
                                                        --J. R. R. Tolkien,
alderson@leland.stanford.edu                              _The Lost Road_
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: petex@cix.compulink.co.uk (Peter Christian)
Subject: Re: Kipling (the 6 servants)
Reply-To: petex@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 01:30:00 +0000


> Unfortunately, I don't know where it comes from. Someone told me that it must
> be on the jungle book but I'm not sure. 

I've just had a quick look through electronic editions of the Jungle
Book and Kim, and can't find it. (There's a poem "Servants of the
Queen" in the Jungle Book, but it's not that.)

Peter


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Christian                         
  Dept of European Languages              peter@gold.ac.uk
  Goldsmiths' College, London.            petex@cix.compulink.co.uk
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: hubey@pilot.njin.net (Hubey)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: Bulgarians - descendents of a Finnis tribe?
Date: 7 Jan 93 04:37:02 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <1993Jan6.193601.9179@leland.Stanford.EDU> alderson@elaine46.Stanford.EDU (Rich Alderson) writes:

> 
> <Here endeth the lesson.>


Thank you very much for the lesson :-).

In a month or two, depending on how much loss of sleep I'm able
to tolerate, I'll have a lesson or two. Please stay tuned :-).

> It was replaced by the use of the comparative method--used successfully by
> investigators not only in Indo-European languages, but Semitic and Austro-
> Asiatic langauges as well.

Let's remember the lesson that Omega Man learned. Some methods might
be more useful for closely related languages than for languages
that are not closely related (or just not close in terms of distance
without making any claims for genetic descent).

BTW, I have always appreciated your posts and your comments.
-- 

	mark	

   hubey@amiga.montclair.edu         hubey@apollo.montclair.edu
   hubey@pilot.njin.net               ...!rutgers!pilot!hubey    
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: ederveen@athena.research.ptt.nl (Ederveen D.)
Subject: Free Esperanto Course (regula posxtajxo / periodic posting)
Summary: introductory Esperanto correspondence course by e-mail
Keywords: esperanto, e-mail course
Reply-To: D.N.M.Ederveen@research.ptt.nl
Organization: PTT Research, The Netherlands
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 16:01:08 GMT

Periodic posting about the                              Regula posxtajxo pri la
                             FREE ESPERANTO COURSE

What ?                                  Kio ?
An online Esperanto course, available   Reta Esperanto-kurso, havebla en ambaux
in both English and French. Based on    la angla kaj la franca lingvoj. Gxi
the popular Free Postal Course of the   bazigxas sur la populara Free Postal
Esperanto League for North America. We  Course de la Esperanto-Ligo de Norda
hope to add courses in other languages  Ameriko. Ni esperas aldoni kursojn en
in the future.                          aliaj lingvoj estonte.

How much ?                              Kiom ?
Free! 10 lessons.                       Senpaga! 10 lecionojn.

How ?                                   Kiel ?
Tutors in netland will help you,        Instruantoj en retlando helpos vin,
correct your exercises, and send you    korektos viajn ekzercojn, kaj sendos al
subsequent lessons.                     vi sekvajn lecionojn.

Why ?                                   Kial ?
To learn Esperanto, of course!          Por lerni Esperanton, kompreneble!

Who ?                                   Kiu ?
For you!                                Por vi!

Where ?                                 Kie ?
Send e-mail to me (address: see below)  Sendu e-posxton al mi (adreso: vd.
and I will send you the first lesson,   sube) kaj mi sendos al vi la unuan
together with the network address of    lecionon, kune kun la retadreso de via
your personal tutor. Please indicate    propra instruanto. Bonvolu indiki la
English or French.                      anglan aux la francan.

When ?                                  Kiam ?
Now, if you like.                       Nun, se vi volas.

How Good ?                              Kia ?
From the very first lesson you will be  Ekde la unua leciono, vi povos skribi
able to write in Esperanto, and upon    en Esperanto, kaj fininte la kurson, vi
completion, you will be able to         povos kompreni preskaux cxiun
understand almost every Esperanto-text  Esperanto-tekston, (helpe de vortaro),
(with the help of a dictionary), and to kaj skribi simplajn tekstojn.
write simple texts.

I await your e-mail!                    Mi atendas vian posxtajxon!

greetings / salutojn,
Derk Ederveen                        internet: D.N.M.Ederveen@research.ptt.nl
                                               earn:  ederveen@hlsdnl5.bitnet
(don't use automatic reply on this message)    uucp: ..!hp4nl!dnlunx!ederveen
(ne uzu auxtomatan respondon al cxi-mesagxo)   decnet:        dnlts::ederveen
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson)
Subject: Re: Naming Convention for Part of Speech Subclasses
Originator: alderson@leland.Stanford.EDU
Reply-To: alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson)
Organization: Cisco Systems (MIS)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 01:57:37 GMT

In article <C0pGEI.86M@inews.Intel.COM>, bongalon@tcad05 (Ben Bongalon) writes:
>
>In article <memo.851485@cix.compulink.co.uk>, petex@cix.compulink.co.uk
>(Peter Christian) writes:
>|> In-Reply-To: <C0IEnu.Ew4@inews.Intel.COM> bongalon@tcad05.intel.com
>(Ben Bongalon)

>|> > Where can I find references for the names of part-of-speech
>|> > subclasses.  For example,
>|> > 
>|> > for Nouns,
>|> >    (subject,object)     ???
>|> >    (common,proper)      ???
>|> >    (singular,plural)    case(?)
>|> > 
>|> >    Verbs,
>|> >    (past,present,future)        tense(?)
>|> >    (singular,plural)            case(?)
>|> > 
>|> >    ...etc.

<The clarifying questions deleted>

>I plan to use the different "attributes" to classify words during the
>parsing phase of a program that I have been developing (natural language
>processor).  For example, the sentence: "John is tall" will be parsed
>as follows:
>
>John:	part of speech = noun 
>	??? = singular 

The notion singular/plural is called "number," both in nouns and verbs.

>	??? = proper

I think perhaps "class" is a good cover term.  Others may disagree.  Your
mileage no doubt *will* vary.

>is:     part of speech = verb
>	??? = singular
>	tense = present
>
>tall:	part of speech = adj
>
>Obviously I can label the attributes to whatever I want but it would
>be nice if my terminologies are consistent with that of the linguistic
>community.

Now that we know what you were asking about, it's easy:

Subject/object is a syntactic distinction, reflected by "case" (in English,
only in pronouns--he/him, I/me, etc.)

Tense is indeed the term you wanted for the notions past/present/future,
although there are other verbal categories that interact with tense, such as
aspect (continual vs. punctual action, action vs. state, etc.) and mood (uhh,
hard to give a three-word description).

There is a lot of literature on computer-parsing of natural language; you might
want to do a quick survey before going any further with your project, to see
what notions are considered important in such work.  Sometimes the traditional
labels are too broad or to restrictive for computational work.
-- 
Rich Alderson   'I wish life was not so short,' he thought.  'Languages take
                such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about.'
                                                        --J. R. R. Tolkien,
alderson@leland.stanford.edu                              _The Lost Road_
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: "milan rezac" <milan.rezac@canrem.com>
Subject: quendi and linguistics
Reply-To: "milan rezac" <milan.rezac@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: sci
Date: 5 Jan 93 07:51:43 EST

Hi,

  I was wondering if anyone out there knows the etymology of the word "elf"
(as in a fairy:  not the fish, nor the measurement, nor the verb).  I have
looked into the OED, which elves OE. ielf (if I remember correctly), pl.
ylfe.  Also there is German alp and Norse alf (I think, as in Alfheim?; I am
afraid I am not very well versed in Norse mythology).  In any case, I am
interested is there are any older forms (i.e. Gothic), connections to other
IE words (perhaps latin albiz? or German Alp), and, most importantly, an PIE
root and its root-sense?  Unfortunately I am decidedly no linguist, so I
would much appreciated if you could keep it simple.
  Also, if there are any theories about its original meaning.  I think I
read somewhere that the Gothic equivalents were beings with more magical
powers, not diminuitive, and more or less benevolent; however, I can't
remember the source.

  Secondarily, does anyone know of any good (more or less introductory)
up to date texts to historical/comparative (primarly Indo-european)
linguistics, and most importantly, where to get them?  Something akin to
An Introduction to Historical Linguistics (if possible more extensive,
especially in the reconstructive part); I have not been able to find that
one in nearby bookstores.

P.S.:  My e-mail address (given below), while it usually works, sometimes
looses messages or delays them substantially.  If I don't ackowledge your
message, I have not received it; my apologies in advance.

Thanks in advance,

=============================================================================
|Nelde  cormar nu i  Menel  Eldatrin, | .   . | Elyo, Milan Rezac, Elenril |
|Otso  Naukotrin  rondontassen sarna, |:  . . |  milan.rezac@canrem.uucp   |
|Nerte  martyane fira  frimar Hildin, |  . *  |             *              |
|Mine Mornaturoin mahalmaryosse morna. |.   .  |    * Oltany Elellion *    |
=============================================================================
---
  DeLuxe 1.26b #7817  Nai i Menelcalar kalyavar tielya ullume.
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
From: iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Ivan A Derzhanski)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: optional contractions
Date: 10 Jan 93 21:05:50 GMT
Organization: Centre for Cognitive Science, Edinburgh, UK

In article <930008.140651.slie@pchf20< slie@ulrik.uio.no (Svein Lie) writes:
<[...] Serbo-Croatian, where future tense 
<like 'I shall work' is either
<	Ja cu raditi
<or:	(Ja) raditicu 
<or:	(Ja) radicu
<(the c should have a cirkumflex upside-down (a hacek) above)

No.  It should have an acute accent.

-- 
 `D'ye mind tellin me whit the two o ye are gaun oan aboot?' (The Glasgow
Ivan A Derzhanski  (iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk; iad@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu)    Gospel)
* Centre for Cognitive Science,  2 Buccleuch Place,  Edinburgh EH8 9LW,  UK
* Cowan House, Pollock Halls, 18 Holyrood Park Road, Edinburgh EH16 5BD, UK
From: koontz@cam.nist.gov (John E. Koontz X5180)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: Origin of English?
Date: 6 Jan 93 16:01:08 GMT
Organization: National Institute of Standards and Technology, Gaithersburg, MD

In article <1ie5i1INNlgr@bHARs12c.bnr.co.uk>, sizex@bnr.co.uk (Eric Barber) writes:
|> one of the striking features of English is its lack of conjugations
|> and declensions. 

Actually, English still contains conjugations, though the personal inflection
of most verbs is very simplified.  The two main groups of conjugations are
weak verbs (past in -ed) and strong verbs (past by ablaut).  In a general
way the subclasses under these groups correspond to the `conjugations' of
the Romance languages.  One could also argue that English has several 
declensions, too, based on the variation in patterns of forming plurals.
My point is, a language doesn't have to have an elaborate system of 
tense/aspect varying personal inflections to have conjugational and 
declensional classes.  

----
John E. Koontz (koontz@bldr.nist.gov)

Disclaimer:  Views and recommendations, express or implied, are my own, and
do not reflect the opinion or policy of my employers.
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: mcovingt@aisun3.ai.uga.edu (Michael Covington)
Subject: New mailing list: DG (Dependency Grammar)
Organization: AI Programs, University of Georgia, Athens
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 21:04:52 GMT

A new mailing list has been established for discussion of dependency
grammar.  To subscribe, email mcovingt@ai.uga.edu.  There are currently
73 participants including several prominent dependency grammarians.

The list is presently unmoderated and is maintained manually.

(For the uninitiated: Dependency grammar is an approach to formal syntax
in which we draw links between individual words rather than breaking the
sentence up into substrings (constituents).)
-- 
:-  Michael A. Covington     internet mcovingt@uga.cc.uga.edu :    *****
:-  Artificial Intelligence Programs       phone 706 542-0358 :  *********
:-  The University of Georgia                fax 706 542-0349 :   *  *  *
:-  Athens, Georgia 30602-7415 U.S.A.     amateur radio N4TMI :  ** *** **
From: krovetz@sydney.cs.umass.edu (Bob Krovetz)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: book request
Date: 10 Jan 93 01:18:48 GMT
Reply-To: krovetz@cs.umass.edu (Bob Krovetz)
Followup-To: krovetz@cs.umass.edu
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst

I have been trying to get a copy of two books that are out of print, and
my attempt to get them from an out-of-print search was unsuccessful.  The
two books are:

`The Categories and Types of Present-Day English Word-Formation', by
Hans Marchand, 

`On Semantics', by Uriel Weinreich

If anyone has a copy that they would like to sell, or knows where I can
get a copy, could you please contact me?

Thanks!
Bob

krovetz@cs.umass.edu

Bob Krovetz
Dept. of Computer Science
University of Massachusetts
Amherst, MA. 01003
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson)
Subject: Re: labio-velars to labials, but reverse?
Originator: alderson@leland.Stanford.EDU
Reply-To: alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson)
Organization: Cisco Systems (MIS)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 93 01:57:09 GMT

In article <memo.854872@cix.compulink.co.uk>, petex@cix (Peter Christian) writes:
>In-Reply-To: <1993Jan8.002108.20583@leland.Stanford.EDU> alderson@cisco.com (Rich Alderson)

>>There is (may be) more at work in Germanic than assimilations.  There are a
>>few lexical items which do not show the expected development *k<w> > *x<w>,
>>but rather *k<w> > *f.  Whether *k<w> > **p in some environment prior to
>>Grimm's law, or afterwards *x<w> -> *f, is indeterminate.  But besides the
>>evidence of "5," we have other words such as "wolf," Gothic Wulfila "Little
>>Wolf" < *wlk<w>o-.
>
>Also Latin lupus, though the Oxford Etymological Dictionary says this is a
>dialect form. (I thought they *all* were!)

Ah, but Latin has clearly borrowed from one or more dialects and languages in
its surroundings:  Compare, for example, the expected ruber "red" < *Xrudhros
(cf. Skt. rudhra-, Gk. eruthros) with the personal name Rufus "red-beard."
-- 
Rich Alderson   'I wish life was not so short,' he thought.  'Languages take
                such a time, and so do all the things one wants to know about.'
                                                        --J. R. R. Tolkien,
alderson@leland.stanford.edu                              _The Lost Road_
Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: jbm@hal.trl.OZ.AU (Jacques Guy)
Subject: Re: optional contractions 
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne, Australia
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 05:26:19 GMT

cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:

>I know that there are languages, like French, that include contractions,
>but I was wondering if there were any around that had OPTIONAL
>contractions, as does English.  "I'm" is just as grammatical as "I am,"
>while "je aime" isn't acceptable.

Why, French has "y" as a contracted form of "lui" e.g. j'y ai dit =
je lui ai dit. It drops "ne" all over the place, e.g. "je sais pas =
je ne sais pas", and more.

I believe that quite a number of languages have contractions galore.
Tolomako (New-Hebrides) regularly drop the initial n of the article
"na", and the personal marker "i" in fast speech, and even has so
quite bewildering "shortspeak", viz  asasaa = ai sa tinisi na.

The Pidgin English  of the Solomon Islands, at least the variety
spoken on Santa Ysabel, also has regular contractions (which the Pidgin
English of the New Hebrides does not have, although they are quite 
close). For instance, you can always omit the last vowel of words
of more than one syllables, drop the homorganic nasal in a nasal+
stop cluster, and reduce two duplicated syllables to one with a
long consonant. 
And what's more, you can cumulate those contractions on top of one
another! For instance:  
bambu (bamboo) --> babu --> bab
putete (sweet potato) --> put:e --> put:
		   or --> putet
From: delancey@darkwing.uoregon.edu (Scott C DeLancey)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: Works on WHO,WHEN,WHAT,WHERE...
Date: 7 Jan 1993 17:06:06 GMT
Organization: University of Oregon Network Services
NNTP-Posting-Host: darkwing.uoregon.edu

In article <1993Jan7.130658.22948@ghost.dsi.unimi.it> leva@ghost.dsi.unimi.it (paolo leva) writes:
>
>I will try to explain WHY we choose to start a new taxonomy from those six
>items. The reason is so simple that it is difficult to make it sound worth
>a scientifical research. If you think of what can be asked about any situation
>that is possible to describe with language, you will find out that you have
>to use one of the wh-words, among those the following six seem to be the most
>essential: WHO, WHAT, WHY, HOW, WHERE, and WHEN. We are ignoring the yes/no
>questions as you surely noticed.
>
>The power of this taxonomy (to be developed, of course) is in its intuitive
>power. There is no problem explaining somebody how to recognize a WHO, a WHAT
>and so on. The biggest problem is to convince people trying to approach the
>language from a perspective (apparently) so down to earth.
>

You might be interested in suggestions along this line by Ray
Jackendoff.  See the discussion of "ontological categories" in his
_Semantics and Cognition_ (especially pp. 52-56).

Scott DeLancey                 delancey@darkwing.uoregon.edu
Department of Linguistics
University of Oregon

Newsgroups: sci.lang
From: claird@NeoSoft.com (Cameron Laird)
Subject: Re: Origin of English?
Organization: NeoSoft Communications Services -- (713) 684-5900
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 15:58:07 GMT

In article <memo.843625@cix.compulink.co.uk> petex@cix.compulink.co.uk writes:
>In-Reply-To: <gus.teschke-050193133237@no-name-medadmin.med.umich.edu> gus.teschke@med.umich.edu (Gus Teschke)
>
>The short answer to your question is: Modern English comes from Old
>English (5th - 11th Century AD) which comes from Germanic (spoken in
>Northern Germany/Southern Denmark from perhaps 1000 BC? onwards),
>which comes from Indo-European (perhaps 3000 BC).
			.
			.
			.
>Of course particular *bits* of English come from elsewhere as a
>result of contacts with Vikings, Normans, Christianity etc. But an
>enormous amount of the basic vocabulary can be traced back at least as
>far as Germanic, the same for the basic grammar.
			.
			.
			.
Every time this issue arises, I argue that this
description inadequately emphasizes the importance
of criollization (mostly with Norman French, but I
know some highlight earlier processes, when differ-
ent Germans and Scandinavians were moving around)
in the genesis of English.  That is, I'm saying
that, *un*like say, French, which picked up bits
of Arabic, German, Italian, and so on, English
differs fundamentally from its Germanic ancestors
in the regular and predictable ways of a creole.

There are some hazards in this position:
1.  I might be wrong, scientifically; I sure
    hope someone will set me straight if this
    be so;
2.  someone will think that, because I'm con-
    trasting English with most of the other
    modern tongues of Western Europe (or Use-
    net, say), I'm claiming special virtue
    for English.  I am not;
3.  perhaps popular audiences are too ready
    to understand language change as "mixing",
    and this just muddies the waters for them.
    Also, USAicans do seem to regard Germany
    as a more distant place and culture than
    the facts warrant.  I suspect Mr. Christian
    has had to correct these misapprehensions
    too often, and so perhaps understated the
    extent to which English diverged from its
    Germanic cousins.
-- 

Cameron Laird
claird@Neosoft.com (claird%Neosoft.com@uunet.uu.net)	+1 713 267 7966
claird@litwin.com (claird%litwin.com@uunet.uu.net)  	+1 713 996 8546
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Newsgroups: sci.lang
Subject: Re: Ah, Pazis (was: Re: Chaire -> chaise)
Date: 10 Jan 93 10:18:26 GMT
Organization: Enea Data AB

Michael Covington (mcovingt@aisun3.ai.uga.edu) writes:
>Erland Sommarskog (sommar@enea.se) writes:
>>Chaire -> chaise is a two-of-its-kind, the other being "be'sicles"
>>from "be'ryl". However, there was a general change in French in
>>the 16th century where intervocalic -r- became -z-, so there was
>>"mazi", "Pazi" etc. According to Erasme this was to blame high-
>>society Parisian ladies, but the pronounciation was noted outside
>>of Paris as well. Nevertheless the change was rejected, and the two
>>words above were the only to be affected.
>
>What was the phonetic value of /r/ in French just before the change?
>Was this odd change something that happened along the way from an
>apical to a uvular r ?

No. That happened later. Moliere in his "Le Bourgeois gentilhomme"
gives detailed description on the pronouciation of some French con-
sonants, including r:

    en portant le bout de la langue jusqu'au haut du palais , de sort
    qu'etant frolee par l'air qui sort avec force, elle lui cede et
    revient toujours au meme endroit, faisant une maniere de treblement.

Another interesting result of this transition is the pronouciation
of French in North Africa. The men speak with the old apical R,
whereas the women use the uvual R. Pourqoui, me direz-vous? The
men started to learn French as part of the military training in
the beginning of the colonization, whereas the women were con-
fronted with French later when the uvular R was established. The
sex roles then helped with preservation of this situation.
-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
Newsgroups: sci.lang