HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Herman Rubin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: What is Jewish religion? (long...)
Date: 24 Jul 92 18:40:57 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Statistics Department

In article <1992Jul23.205250.25422@njitgw.njit.edu> dic5340@hertz.njit.edu (David Charlap) writes:
>In article <1992Jul22.210354.11325@wam.umd.edu> aap@next03wor.wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas) writes:

			.....................

>>Then, you are reducing Judaism to a simple religion. We might need to  
>>change soc.culture.jewish to talk.religion.jewish.
>>Anyway, Judaism is both, a culture and a religion.
>>Which are the Jewish principles to practice to be part of the Jewish  
>>culture if you are a secular Jew?

>Not at all.  One of the things at the core of Judaism is that if
>you're born to a Jewish mother, you're a Jew.  There are other
>principles (namely the 613 mitzvot) which are also essential.  If you
>deny the mitzvot, you don't cease being Jewish, but you certainly stop
>practicing Judaism.

Possibly that is the problem; when a religion incorporates a culture into
it, it becomes overly restrictive, and loses its essentials.  This is 
especially the case when the religion comes from a rigid culture; one
can take the Jew out of the stetl, but can one take the stetl out of
the Jew?  This is what the early Reform rabbis wanted to do; not to
take the stetl out of those who could not adapt, but to take the stetl
out of the Jewish religion.  

Isaiah, Micah, and even to a considerable extent Hillel and Maimonides
wanted to make the Jewish religion a simple religion.  By the time of
Maimonides, it already became very difficult to do this.  Most of the
613 mitvoth are a civil law code, and many of the rest are concerned
with the now dead sacrificial cult.  But even the civil mitzvoth have
become greatly distorted by placing the trees ahead of the forest.

A quote, from memory:

	Thousands of laws people have spoken;
	A handfult the Creator sent.
	The former are frequently broken;
	The latter can't even be bent.

Now the Written Torah does not quite have a thousand laws,
but the Oral Law certainly does.  And the Shulkhan Arukh
has many tens of thousands.
-- 
Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399
Phone: (317)494-6054
hrubin@pop.stat.purdue.edu (Internet, bitnet)  
{purdue,pur-ee}!pop.stat!hrubin(UUCP)
From: jeff@godzilla.quotron.com (Jeff Marder)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Refrigerators In "Stranger Among Us" (SPOILER)
Date: 24 Jul 92 15:32:18 GMT
Organization: Quotron Systems, Inc.

The Rebbe's kitchen contained separate refrigerators for meat and dairy.  Under
the laws of Kashrut, can't meat and milk products that are COLD be stored  
together  (in separate milk and meat containers of course)?????


-- 
===========================================================
jeff@godzilla.quotron.com
Quotron Systems   310-302-4316
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: rivk@quads.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis)
Subject: Re: Anti-Orthodoxy (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Reply-To: rivk@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 15:53:17 GMT

In article <dfs.712330327@ro> dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll) writes:
>In <84588@netnews.upenn.edu> weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu (Matthew P
>Wiener) writes:
>
>>In article <dfs.712284318@data>, dfs@doe (David F. Skoll) writes:
>>>>Let me see.  Conservative and Reform Jews DON'T think they're right?
>
>>>Sure they do.  But they *don't* say that Orthodox are wrong.
>
>>That is certainly a lie.
>
>Please give examples of official positions from Reform or Conservative
>leadership which state that Orthodoxy is wrong.  (I'm not talking about
>individuals; as someone else pointed out, there are intolerant people
>in every group.)

Isn't this the same nitwit who insisted that I must be lying when I
explained that I'd been beaten up by the Williamsburg Satmers for
not dressing according to their standards of modesty? If so, he never
has any backing for the allegations; it's just his way of hiding his
head in the sand -- don't bother with him, David.

>David F. Skoll

	-Nora
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Subject: Re: Codes?
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, (USA)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 92 16:28:28 GMT


  I share Mr. wolpert's interest in this subject.  Please suggest
your list here, as there are many who share this interest.
-- 
"The tree of liberty must occasionally be nourished by the blood
of tyrants and of patriots."                    Thomas Jefferson
"Hello? Information?  Would you please give me the home phone of
Pat Buchanan?...Yes.  His address as well, thank you very much."
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll)
Subject: Re: the conversion can of worms, again (was Re: Anti-Orthodoxy ...)
Organization: Dept. of Electronics, Carleton University
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1992 18:28:44 GMT

In <1992Jul30.171428.25715@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com
(samuel.saal) writes:

>In article <dfs.712504378@ro> dfs@doe.carleton.ca (David F. Skoll) writes:
>>In <1992Jul30.130347.11477@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com
>>(samuel.saal) writes:

>>>That or the
>>>Orthodox would have to start demanding much more careful geneological
>>>record keeping.

>>That's true.  But why should they shift their burden onto a secular
>>government, 85% of whose constituents are not Orthodox?  Keeping track
>>of such things is not my problem, it's yours. :-)

>This lack of concern exhibited initially by the Reform leaders, and now
>filtering down through the laity,

Surprise!  I'm not "Reform", so the Reform leaders' ideas didn't filter
down to me.  As I've said before, I totally disagree with patrilineal
descent.

>is a prime example of the divisiveness of
>the patrilinial descent.

Well, Sam, there comes a point where we have to ask ourselves this
question: At what level does our duty for concern over others begin
interfering in our own lives to an undue level?  Now, I'm perfectly
willing to live without patrilineal descent, because I think that in
that instance, the concerns over divisiveness outweigh whatever
benefits we think patrilineal descent may bring.

But when a minority of people tell an elected government what to do,
then I have to say no.  That minority is demonstrating contempt for
democracy.  Again, let me stress - I have no problems whatsoever with
the Halachic rules for determining who is Jewish.  But I do have
problems when the religious authorities force a secular government to
abide by those rules.  Because, much as some may dislike it, Israel
does not claim to be a theocracy.  It is supposedly a democracy.  And
in this instance, the religious establishment is undermining the
democracy, making the claim to be the "only democracy in the Middle
East" that much harder to support.

--
                     |         | "Step up and shake the hand
David F. Skoll       | ||||||| |  Of someone you can't stand,
|_ _ _  __   __ _ __ |  \\V//  |  You can tolerate him if you try..."
 / |  | |_|   | |  | |  __|__  |  -- Tom Lehrer, "National Brotherhood Week"
_____|________________________________________________________________________
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: eggertj@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert x6127 g41)
Subject: Re: Discovery
Reply-To: eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu
Organization: MIT Lincoln Lab - Group 41
	<1992Jul24.214306.23065@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu>
Distribution: soc
Date: 24 Jul 92 23:16:34

In article <1992Jul24.214306.23065@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> friedenb@egr.msu.edu ( Gedaliah Friedenberg ) writes:
>   Part of the process of verification is the understanding of codes.
>   Codes are complex encoded "messages" in the Torah.  These messages
>   were largely unknown before the advent of computers (although a few
>   were found by hand).  For instance, if one takes every 2,235th letter
>   in the Torah (at the end of the Torah, go back to the first letter),
>   it may spell something.  Codes have been found which refer to the
>   Holocaust, George Bush (no kidding!) the Gulf War, the 39 Scud Missles and
>   many other topics.  All of the codes which have been found have
>   referred to actual historical events.
>
>   One would argue, though, that since there are nearly an infinite
>   number of possible combinations of letters in the Torah, that if you
>   look hard enough, that you will eventually find something.  Not so.
>   The New York Times was used in the same computer system in order to
>   try to find codes.  A few words came out.  Even two or three words
>   which might fit together in the right context, but nothing which can
>   compare to the full sentences found in the codes of the Torah.  The
>   Discovery program had a mathematics consultant from MIT analyze this
>   issue, and determined that it is nearly statistically impossible for
>   codes to be a mere coincidence.

Oh yeah, if the consultant was from MIT, it must be right.  Just like
the MIT professor who didn't understand the Marilyn vos Savant Parade
article question about the Monty Hall Let's Make a Deal probability
problem.

Seriously, though, one should take into account the differences
between written Hebrew and English before one makes a comparison.
(The absence of vowels comes to mind.)  A suitable consultant would be
an expert in statistical linguistics.  I wonder if the MIT consultant
knew enough to do a good job of consulting?
--
=Jim  eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu (Jim Eggert)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: horen@rs.com (Jonathan B. Horen)
Subject: Re: society as the basis for religion (was
Reply-To: horen@rs.com
Organization: Renaissance Software, Inc.
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 15:06:28 PDT

In article analyst@netcom.com, analyst@netcom.com (David Sternlight) writes:
>
>  > Any guesses about the next trends that will move Reform?          
>
>A robot minyan? A minyan via modem?
>

Uh-h-h, how about:  a minyan via cron (to assure "k'viyut" :-)


Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: aap@next03wor.wam.umd.edu (Alberto Adolfo Pinkas)
Subject: Re: What is Jewish religion? (long...)
Organization: Workstations at Maryland, University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 21:01:04 GMT

In article <BrswCu.LuD@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca> aryk@gpu.utcs.utoronto.ca  
(A.J.S. Nusbacher) writes:
> In article <1992Jul22.031658.8291@access.usask.ca> choy@skorpio.usask.ca  
(I am a terminator.) writes:
> 
> >Why must a Jew practice Jewish principles? You wouldn't demand a person
> >born in a tribe of cannibals to practice cannibal principles would you?
> 
> He doesn't have to.  But if he stops eating people, you can hardly call
> him a cannibal anymore (except in the extended ethnic sense).  No doubt
> if he or his children resume eating human flesh, they will again be con-
> sidered cannibals.
> 
> Aryk Nusbacher

So far I thought that you are Jewish if your mother is Jewish, and that it  
haad nothing to do with you practicing the Jewish religion.
There are a lot of secular Jews. And, it seems, there is a lot of  
disagreement about what is the right practice to follow.
How can you distinguish in this case?

AAP
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: Inheritance of Jewish Identity from a Great-great-grandmother
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: 21 Jul 92 07:38:12 GMT

se = engelson-sean@CS.YALE.EDU (Sean Philip Engelson)

me: some just call "yaamod hamagbiah v'golel" (should this be v'hagolel?)

se: Actually, it should be "ya`am.du hamagbi'ah v.hagolel", there being two of
>them.

Yes, you're right, it should be a plural verb.  Perhaps I've sometimes
heard "yaamod hamagbiah, yaamod hagolel".  These days I go to shuls
where the Gabbaim know how to speak Hebrew correctly, but I do think
that in the past I've heard yaamod followed by two job descriptions.
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire world		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very strange carrot.
 |warren@      But the principal
/ nysernet.org is not hungry at all.
From: ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: looking for an apt in J'lem
Date: 29 Jul 92 09:08:55 GMT
Organization: Math department, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, ISRAEL


 In article <22013@venera.isi.edu> arens@ISI.EDU (Yigal Arens) writes:

 >Just to remove any possible doubt, Gilo is in the occupied territories.

Wake up Yigal.
 Good news for you.
  The Jordenian army was kicked out in 1967.
  Gilo area is no more an occupied territory,
   it is back in Jewish hands.
 BE HAPPY !!

Gideon Ehrlich   ERTZ YISRAEL
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: warren@nysernet.org (Warren Burstein)
Subject: Re: Why I gave up on my People (was Re: Another Holocaust)
Reply-To: warren@nysernet.org
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: 29 Jul 92 00:15:14 GMT

ss = saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
sg = sharon@unixland.natick.ma.us (Sharon Machlis Gartenberg)

sg: I am no scholar, but I cannot believe the Torah teaches that we should
sg: care only about our own, and it is right and just to assume the worst
sg: of someone because of their ethnic group, and we should not be disturbed
sg: if others are suffering as long as they aren't Jews.

ss: It is _only_ you who has claimed, to the point of slander, that ANY Jew
ss: says anything near this end of the spectrum.

Opinions expressed on this group (including one of yours, although
that might have been sarcastic) do give the impression that there
exist posters here who approach the view criticized by Sharon.

If this is not the case, let's call it a misunderstanding and all
agree that we are supposed to help Jews first, everyone else next.
And this doesn't mean everyone else after we've solved every last one
of our problems or the second part means nothing.  For example, if a
Jew needs a warm coat and a non-Jew is bleeding to death, I think the
non-Jew comes first.
-- 
/|/-\/-\       The entire kitchen		Jerusalem
 |__/__/_/     is a very narrow mathom.
 |warren@      But the ***
/ nysernet.org is not all that worried.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)
Subject: Re: society as the basis for religion (was Re: What is Jewish religion?)
Reply-To: <gertler@ptms_dev.sbi.com (User - Don Gertler)>
Organization: Nysernet
Date: 23 Jul 92 17:50:05 GMT

hayim@locus.com (Hayim Hendeles) writes:
>IMHO being Orthodox is like being pregnant - either you are or are not.
>There is only 1 Shulchan Oruch - either you follow it or you don't follow it.

>Thus, I detest the use of the word "Modern Orthodox". If "Modern Orthodox"
>means that there is one iota of deviation from the Shulchan Oruch,
>then that is no longer Orthodox. IF it doesn't, then the use of the
>term "Modern" is superfluous.

I agree with the concept but not with the details.  I think Orthodoxy
comprises many different groups, some of which don't necessarily hold
precisely by the Shulchan Aruch.  Sephardim and Ashkenazim differ in
their proctices.  German (Yekke) Jews have their own customs as well,
sometimes at odds with the Shulchan Aruch.  Still, they are all "Orthodox,"
much as I hate labels.

And then there is the rare Orthodox Jew who may not even know the
entire Shulchan Aruch, or who strays at times when his/her yetzer hara`
gets the better of him/her.  It happens among the left-wing, the modern,
the centrist, the right-wing, the black hats, the ultra, the infra, 
the hyper, the hypo and the yeshivish Orthodox Jews.  I seem to
remember it even happening to me once.

My idea of an Orthodox Jew is one who believes the Torah was given
to Moshe by G-d at Sinai, and that it is binding -- with Torah sheb'al
Peh -- on all Jews to this day and beyond.  The OJ will continually
strive to fulfill the law in all its aspects, and strive to improve
in his/her observance always.

Institutionalized rationalizing of departure from the law does not fit
in.  If that's what's behind the "left of center" OJs, then perhaps
they're CJs, or some other moniker.  [I know I'll be flamed for this,
since I'm ascribing my definition of CJs to CJs.  The truth is, I'm
not so sure that this IS my definition of CJs, since I've never
really thought about it in any depth.  Not that my definition of CJ
really matters to anyone anyway, but you wouldn't know it from the
responses I'm sure to get.  Of course, my definition of OJ probably
carries about as much weight.]  But anyway, any individual or group
that says, "Well, I really can't ..." or "This really is too difficult
for me to ..." is stretching it.

Okay, I have my 5A:10BC ready for your flames.

-Don Gertler
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: ward@sun1.vlsi.waterloo.edu (Paul Ward)
Subject: Re: The Cost of Living Jewishly (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 17:08:44 GMT

In article <EGGERTJ.92Jul24224958@moses.atc.ll.mit.edu> eggertj@atc.ll.mit.edu writes:

>This is in contrast to most Christian churches, which are supported by
>voluntary contributions.

For those who wish to know, this is (depending upon the Christian group in
question) a recent reality.  As little as 50 years ago, it was necessary to
purchase a pew for Sunday services.

With regard to synagogues, I have attended with no cost.  (As an additional
side note, no one shoves a plate under your face and asks for a voluntary
contribution either; something the Christians could learn from the Jews)

Paul.
From: faigin@aero.org (Daniel P. Faigin)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: O-C-R debate
Date: 27 Jul 92 15:56:01 GMT
	<1992Jul24.192801.29415@umbc3.umbc.edu>
	<1992Jul25.205235.6218@midway.uchicago.edu>
	<55134@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>
	<LERNER.92Jul26171846@division.cs.columbia.edu>
Organization: The Aerospace Corporation, El Segundo, CA

On Sun, 26 Jul 1992 22:18:46 GMT, lerner@cs.columbia.edu (Michah Lerner) said:

> name of progress).  But, in  fact, these axioms  are wrong.  1+1=3
> and this  is  actually the way things are.  That is  right, 1+1=3!
> It is  three!!  It is  not  two.  THREE!  This is  the fundamental

No, you're wrong. 1 + 1 = 10. Boy, can't anyone add :-)

Daniel
--
[W]:The Aerospace Corp. M1/055 * POB 92957 * LA, CA 90009-2957 * 310/336-8228
[Email]:faigin@aerospace.aero.org              [Vmail]:310/336-5454 Box#13149
	  "You mean on top of everything else, this ship is rigged?"
	     King Ferdinand, of Spain to Columbus (Stan Freberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal)
Subject: Re: The Cost of Living Jewishly (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Organization: NetNews Readers Anonymous
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 13:32:57 GMT

In article <1992Jul26.224125.28941@talon.ucs.orst.edu>
daver@ECE.ORST.EDU (Dave Rabinowitz) writes:

>I have a Jewish friend who refuses to join the local Jewish community because
>she is opposed to membership dues.  She attends the local Unitarian Fellowship,
>which relies entirely on voluntary contributions (you become a full member by
>just signing your name), and gives them more each year than she would have to
>pay for dues in our community.

Whether I like them or not, there exist so many varieties of Jewish
synagogues, shuls, and temples, I suspect your friend is using the
membership dues as an excuse to reject Judaism. (And, yes, I know how
"ecumenical" Unitarians are).

>                                It's not an issue of how much it costs (we will
>not turn away anyone for not paying full dues, and this is made clear on every
>membership form), but just that the concept of dues bothers her.  Are there any
>shuls which do not have a membership dues structure?   How do they work?

I'm a little confused about the "we" in the parenthetical.  Is this the
Unitarian place or the shul she won't attend?
-- 
Sam Saal      homxb!saal OR saal@homxb.att.com
	Vayiftach HaShem et Peah Ha`Aton
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: rivk@quads.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis)
Subject: Re: Anti-Orthodoxy (was Re: O-C-R debate)
Reply-To: rivk@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 18:16:15 GMT

In article <1992Jul31.175842.1080@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> saal@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (samuel.saal) writes:
>In article <1992Jul31.164438.28347@midway.uchicago.edu>
>rivk@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>
>>In article <LERNER.92Jul31093324@division.cs.columbia.edu>
>>lerner@cs.columbia.edu (Michah Lerner) writes:
>
>>>  What is this allegation of inhumane treatment of animals?  Are you
>>>  talking about veal?  So why does the butcher have a sign telling
>>>  people not to eat veal because of how it is cared for?   
>
>>Veal; most chicken in the United States; virtually all milk in the United
>>States. And a sign at the butcher's that suggests something is different
>>from considering it one of the basic laws of kashruth.
>
>Please list a synopsis of all the Kashruth laws that the Reform
>considers to be binding on at least themselves.  Or have I already done
>so?

The definitions of fit and unfit species, the rules regarding the
health condition of the animal, and the rules regarding method of
slaughter are the minimum that most Reform Jews I know keep and the
minimum most Reform Rabbis I know require. (As mentioned, getting 
the Reform movement to officially agree on anything is difficult;
I base what I say about Reform on what I read and hear from Reform
Responsa and individual rabbinic decisions.) Beyond that, it varies
depending on who's doing the interpreting. I keep the separation re-
quirement but not with respect to all materials.

>Sam Saal      kingfish!saal OR saal@kingfish.att.com

	-Nora
From: tysoj@solb1.essex.ac.uk (Tyson J R)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Karaites
Date: 30 Jul 92 20:53:44 GMT
Reply-To: tysoj@essex.ac.uk (Tyson J R)
Organization: University of Essex, Colchester, UK


YECCH!

Just got back from my first visit to alt.messianic.  As a militant
apostate to atheism, I have to say that the this MJ business is bizarre.

Why all the cod Hebrew in the Xian scriptiure quotations?  Why not call
ben Panthera Jesus?  Why all this effort to be more Juadising than
thou in all usages.  Give me good old orthodox religious dogmatism
and cultural elitism any day of the week.  I need a drink after
reading that drivel.

Well, with that off my chest a request.  Anybody know a decent reference
work on Karaitism?  Preferably something that combines a reasonably
accessible discussion of religious questions with a sociological
and historical treatment.  And...in English :).  A nice sort of
thing would be something like Unterman's _the Jews_ if there is a comparable
work.

Thanks in advance,

Jim Tyson
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
From: gpkg2142@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Gary P. Kulwin)
Subject: Did We Win an Olympic Medal?
Summary: query about first Israeli medal
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1992 09:54:26 GMT
Keywords: olympics,israel

Shalom Everybody,
I got a call from a friend telling me that Israel has
just won its first medal ever in Olympic competition.
Who won?  What sport?  Was the medal gold, silver, or
bronze?  Do any of the Israelis on this newsgroup think
that this medal victory will be a big event in Israel,
similar to the 1977 European Cup victory, or a win in
the Eurovision Song Contest?

Kol Tuv, Gary Kulwin
-- 
 Gary Kulwin                                    | "If you will it,
 Graduate Student in Organizational Behavior    |  it's no dream" -- Herzl
 University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign       | "If you swill it,
 Internet: gpkg2142@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu            |  it is no drink" -- Elvis
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish