HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 08:35:00 EDT
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: the value of money

On Tue, 25 Aug 1992 14:56:54 PDT bob pasker <bob@HALFDOME.SF.CA.US>
said:

> how does one find out the historical value of a dollar?  for instance,
> i have an estate inventory which declares a few thousand dollars in
> notes are owed to the deceased's estate.  how would i find out the
> relative value of that debt in either today's terms, or in
> comparative terms to others of his time?

An interesting question, one that comes up in my classes.
It is possible to work out simple conversion rates, although
the farther back in time one goes, the more fragmentary the
conversion rates are. So, it is easy enough to find out the
dollars to pound ratio in 1892, e.g., but rather harder for
1832. I also can find inflation rates, so that I can control
for inflation. It is quite common to see charts that present
the dollar or pound of 1913 (last full year of peace before the
deluge) as 100, with subsequent values expressed in terms of
1913 money.

But after a while, more than say 100 years ago, the statistics
become problematical, in my view, and start raising problems.
In ca. 1830 London, an annual income of 150 l. provided a basic,
bottom-drawer standard of living for a gentleman just starting
out in government service. However, that income included the
services of a "skivvy," a full-time live-in servant girl aged
ca. 12-16. An adult female servant was rather more expensive
to maintain, but still attainable for a middle class family.
In contrast, a middle-class urban family in the US or Britain
in 1832 could not afford to maintain private transport (i.e., a
horse and carriage). Thus middle-class neighborhoods built
before ca. 1914 in the USA by and large don't have garages. Those
were added later. The same is true of such housing in Britain.

Today, of course, full-time live-in help is out of reach of
middle-class families, while private transport is a standard
part of the middle-class household.
What this says to me is that after a
point it becomes meaningless to try to express contemporary
money in present-day terms.

Please forgive the lecture, but sometimes there are no short
answers.

Denis Paz
dgpaz@clemson.bitnet
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Via:         UK.AC.ULCC.CLUS1;  3 SEP 92 16:14:26 BST
X-Mailer:    ELM [version 2.3 PL8]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Thu, 3 Sep 1992 16:11:06 BST
From:         Christopher Currie <c.currie@CLUS1.ULCC.AC.UK>
Subject:      Re: U.S Military Intervention

>
> Now, one can compile a long list of C19 interventions by the
> British and the French. Such a list might even be longer than
> that compiled for the USA. The point that I would stress, to
> defend myself against certain members of this list, is that
> the USA behaved like other powers, not that the USA is bad, and
> certainly not that the USA is exceptional.
>
> Denis Paz
> dgpaz@clemson.bitnet
>

Good point, Denis. One might note also how soon Japan adopted the
Western powers' habits of 'intervening' (though mainly in its own
backyard); 'intervention' marked one's status as a Great Power.
How far was the ideology of intervention in the late 18th and 19th
centuries influenced by the Classical
education of the interveners, and their memories of Roman 'interventions'
in the Hellenistic world? (lines in the sand etc.)

One might add that if one looks at Kali Tal's list,
the U.S. has perhaps intervened less since World War II than before
(contra Chomsky). Certainly one can't imagine the U.S. now sending
troops to every country in the world where there is a coup or revolution
in order allegedly to protect its nationals on the spot. (Paranoids would
of course argue that the US set up most of the coups and revolutions
anyway..) The Reagan raids on Libya appear as part of a long tradition
of U.S. action against North African 'piracy', beginning remarkably early.

Per contra, what would have been the U.S. government's reaction if say
South Korea had sent troops to Los Angeles to protect its nationals in
the late riots there?

Christopher
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
From: akerr@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Austin Kerr)
Subject: Re: U.S Military Intervention
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1992 12:35:39 GMT

Whether or not U.S. military intervention is "justified" depends on the values 
of the person deciding on the "justification", not some "objective" standard.

In my view (my values) war is a symptom of the failure of a nation's 
leadership; military intervention thus may be a symptom of a failure of a 
foreign policy.

Austin Kerr
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Tue, 25 Aug 1992 15:22:05 CDT
From:         Don Mabry <djm1@RA.MSSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: ftp archives
Comments: To: HISTORY@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu

	Good suggestions. I used to annotate and even had more abbreviated
announcements. Some people wanted more info (such as byte size) and I
added that. The annotation got lost in the shuffle. I became an
associate dean a year ago and then had to devote most of 1991-92
fighting a rearguard action against an attempt to eliminate some of
the strongest programs on campus. Some things had to give way and
the annotation was one of them. Now that I have more time, I should
be able to go back to it.



Don Mabry <djm1@ra.msstate.edu>
Interim Associate Dean of Arts and Sciences,
Professor of History
Mississippi State University
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Wed, 2 Sep 1992 13:08:34 PDT
From:         Ken Fishkin <fishkin@PARC.XEROX.COM>
Subject:      Re: U.S Military Intervention
Comments: To: HISTORY@umrvmb.umr.edu

Re justifications for US intervention.
The book "The Anti-Imperialists" does a good job of
discussing the debate for/against US intervention in
the 1890's, when it first happened "big time" (Phillipines,
Cuba, etc.).
From: vvirrank@cc.Helsinki.FI (Ville Virrankoski)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Subject: Re: U.S Military Intervention
Date: 4 Sep 92 06:10:47 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki, Finland
X-Reader: GNUS 3.13

In article <HISTORY%92090307482923@RUTVM1.BITNET> MAINT2@ERS.BITNET (Ken Koester) writes:
>On Wed, 2 Sep 1992 16:22:00 EDT <DGPAZ@CLEMSON> said:
>>On Wed, 2 Sep 1992 13:08:18 EDT mgarber@DHVX20.CSUDH.EDU said:
>>> wouldn't the invasion of lower Canada be attributable to
>>> the British?
>>
>>Why would the British invade their own colony? We, the
>>USA, did it.
>>
>>Denis Paz
>
>"in response to a British threat" is the first speaker's unstated expansion
>of the question, I would hazard.

"To help Napoleon and France" and/or "To get some profit/land from Brits" was
between the lines. 

Ville
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Envelope-to: HISTORY@RUTVM1.BITNET
X-VMS-To: IN%"HISTORY@RUTVM1.BITNET"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 00:31:00 CST
From:         CAMPBELL-JENSEN <CAMPBELLD@APSU.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: PS to the previous post about JFK

    Why were the assassination documents sealed? Mostly because the
    FBI collected accusations naming hundreds of different people as
    conspirators (in dozens of different conspiracies). Release is
    never done in these character assassination cases (and it is
    illegal to release personal information, because Americans have
    a constiturional right to both due process and privacy).
    Garrison's fantastic accusations are surely evidence enough that
    the documents should be kept sealed.
    --the real conspirators, of course, were clever enough to cover
    their tracks in the first place.
    --Richard Jensen
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 20:32:32 EDT
From:         "Daniel A. Foss" <DFOSS@CCVM.SUNYSB.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Rantings from the 'new' religious right

   Will Renato Barahona *please* recognize that we are no longer dealing here
with some fringe nut groups but with the mass organizational base of one of
the two great US political parties? One which, moreover, claims the active
support of the incumbent President: Said Pat Buchanan, "He's with us in the
religious war, he's with us in the cultural war." Or, this means that they are
holding George Bush prisoner.

   I, for one, intend to treat the Republicans with the respect they deserve.
That is, when they start coming through my bedroom windown, as they are
threatening to do, they will find me hiding under the bed if not under the
floorboards.

   I warned you all this was going to happen, I told you so, I told you so.

Daniel A. Foss
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Vms-Mail-To: HISTORY-L
X-Vms-Mail-Cc: BOB
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 20:13:48 PDT
From:         bob pasker <bob@HALFDOME.SF.CA.US>
Subject:      my computer is worth 1,572 bushels of wheat
Comments: To: well!rutvm1.BITNET!history@uunet.UU.NET

Joe Fitzharris writes
>Ultimately (betraying my agricultural focus) I come back to wheat as a
>reasonable "standard unit of measure."  Flaws, bugs (polite tonight),
>and all, wheat is fairly uniform, basic, ubiquitous, and known.  We
>could do (and often do) worse.

so, ok, lets say i "buy" into the theory that wheat can be used as a
time-independent measure of value.  where would i find the
(non-goverment subsidized) price of a uniform quantity of wheat for
every decade between 1790 and 1990 in, let's say, bergen county, new
jersey?

for y'all's edification, here's the contents of one of the inventories
from from 9 march 1833:

	household goods & furniture	360.50
	kitchen furniture		 35.50
	horses				125.00
	horned cattle			146.00
	sheep				 24.00
	swine & poultry			 24.00
	grain & flax			177.50
	hay				 50.00
	ploughs, harrows & other
	implements of husbandry		137.50
	[bonds & notes] slaves		 20.00
	bonds & notes 		       5836.14
	                              --------
	                               6936.14
	Other debts supposed disperate  207.41

it just seems to me that $6k of bonds & notes is a *LOT* of money,
esp. for a farmer.  i'd like to be able to translate that into today's
figures.

after listening to this thread for a while, i'm tempted to find 1830s
and 1990s prices for all of these items, and multiply the above
amounts by the ratio between the 1830s price and the 1990s price to
get a *ballpark* estimate of the '90s value of the movables in this
estate.  thus if a sheep cost $1 in 1830s and $120 today, then the
current value of the "sheep" would be $480. feel free to shoot holes
in this approach (better now than later :-).

also, this is a "vertical" account of this man's wealth. my other job
is to attempt to value the estates of other people in the community
and judge his wealth & status by his relative standing therein, a kind
of "horizontal" valuation.

--
-- bob pasker
-- bob@halfdome.sf.ca.us
--
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 12:25:52 EDT
From:         Ken Koester <MAINT2@ERS.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: my computer is worth 1,234 loaves of bread
              26 Aug 1992 09:04:16 PDT from <bob@HALFDOME.SF.CA. US>

On Wed, 26 Aug 1992 09:04:16 PDT bob pasker said:
>my computer is worth 1,234 loaves of bread.  i can say that now
>that i know the value of money.  thanks folks!
>
>- bob

Yes, but is that whole wheat, 7-grain, rye, plain vanilla white, homemade,
or pumpernickel?
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Mon, 31 Aug 1992 12:18:00 EDT
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: [2]: The theoretical significance of deleting this posting

Something is seriously wrong here.

On Sun, 30 Aug 1992 17:33:06 EDT "Daniel A. Foss"
<DFOSS@CCVM.SUNYSB.EDU> said:

>    What mad manner of RDRLIST screen shows PF2 for DISCARD? Most surely an
> uncanonical computer; if not of the Devil then surely of Digital; a VAX upon

PF2 splits my screen, so that I can look at two files simultaneously.

> PFnn is unassigned as is displayed below the Command Line, thus PF10=
>   .
> Blue has given unto Man the Pf11 PEEK key, providing for reading it *before*

PF10 shifts my lines to the left, PF11 to the right.

> the easier it becomes to SEND (PF5), RECEIVE (PF9), SUSPEND (PF6) then (RESUME
,

PF5 refinds strings; PF9 swaps the cursor between split screens;
PF6 makes global changes in strings.

When my department was given computers, I asked for, and got, a
dumb terminal to the mainframe. I persisted in this choice,
despite the scorn and amused contempt of my colleagues, who
pointed at me, shot out their lips, and said "He trusts in
the mainframe to deliver him."

How can this be?

Denis Paz
dgpaz@clemson.bitnet
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 09:26:00 EDT
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject: Re: the value of money

On Thu, 27 Aug 1992 11:46:05 +1000 Marion Diamond
<med@LINGUA.CLTR.UQ.OZ.AU> said:

> Fifty years ago in Australia, a telephone call, a postage stamp, and a
> newspaper all cost twopence.  (ie. 2/12 of 10 Australian cents).  Now,
> the telephone call costs 24c., the postage stamp is 43c. and the newspaper
> is 80c.                                                               ur

So -- for those who want to calculate the value of money, the
stamp now costs a little over 8s.6d., the phone call costs 4s.9d.,
and the newspaper a whopping 18 bob! No wonder we let Rupert into
god's country -- he has plenty of the god that we worship.

Denis Paz
dgpaz@clemson.bitnet
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Envelope-to: history@finhutc.BITNET
X-VMS-To: IN%"history@finhutc"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 09:34:00 CST
From:         NFPKP2@AUDUCVAX.BITNET
Subject:      subscribe, history, robert saunders, jr.,
              nfpkp2@ducvax.auburn.edu

please add my name and address to this list.
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Sat, 29 Aug 1992 15:29:00 EDT
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Rantings of the 'new' religious right

On Fri, 28 Aug 1992 21:44:55 CDT U17801@UICVM.BITNET said:
>       We should all be thankful for the PF2/discard keys on our terminals.  It

My PF2 key splits the screen.

Denis Paz
dgpaz@clemson.bitnet
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Vms-Mail-To: HISTORY-L
X-Vms-Mail-Cc: BOB
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Tue, 25 Aug 1992 14:56:54 PDT
From:         bob pasker <bob@HALFDOME.SF.CA.US>
Subject:      the value of money
Comments: To: well!rutvm1.BITNET!history@uunet.UU.NET

how does one find out the historical value of a dollar?  for instance,
i have an estate inventory which declares a few thousand dollars in
notes are owed to the deceased's estate.  how would i find out the
relative value of that debt in either today's terms, or in
comparative terms to others of his time?


--
-- bob pasker
-- bob@halfdome.sf.ca.us
--
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 02:24:15 CDT
From:         LHNELSON --UKANVM <LHNELSON@UKANVM.BITNET>
Subject: Re: the value of money

I am tempted to agree with Joe about using wheat as a base commodity,
betraying _my_ agricultural bias. For the past forty years, however, world
wheat prices have been relatively stable and independent of inflation because
of the world's relatively large reserve of wheat producing lands. Farmers in
many countries are paid subsidies to continue to produce wheat that is
marketed at below the cost of production.

There is also the point that the period 1880-1910 saw the development of
dryland wheat production, through which the Ukraine, Argentina, and the
interior plains of the United States and Canada became great wheat-producing
regions. World consumption has not yet caught up with that expansion of
production coupled with combines, new strains, liquid nitrate fertilizers,
herbicides and pesticides. The price of bread may have risen greatly, but the
market value of the wheat in that bread has remained at about two cents US for
some time now.

I have always felt that comparing the value of money in terms of the purchase
of commodities is fruitless, since it would appear that all commodities and
services fluctuate in value on the basis of supply and demand.

I have generally attempted to determine how much is spent in providing beggars
and itinerants a day's rations and used that as a rough guide. It works
relatively well from Carolingian times to the early 1500's as far as I have
been able to determine. The loaf of bread that constituted a day's subsistence
was a penny loaf. An agricultural day laborer received twice that, or two
loaves. I would suggest that the _minimum_ need of a beggar is a relative good
standard.

It is interesting in this respect that even during the price revolutions of
early modern Europe, a beggar's dole seems to have stayed between 1 and 2p.

Lynn

Lynn_Nelson
Department of History
University of Kansas
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Thu, 3 Sep 1992 09:49:00 EDT
From:         DGPAZ@CLEMSON.BITNET
Subject: Re: Beyond the drinking age

On Thu, 3 Sep 1992 16:01:58 +1000 Marion Diamond
<med@LINGUA.CLTR.UQ.OZ.AU> said:

> Have you looked around at your colleagues lately?  Are these the young,
> convivial, confident men of the early 1970s, with a secure career ahead of
> them, and youthful livers and libidoes?
> Alas, twenty years on, those happy imbibers of yesteryear are middle-aged,
> worried about their health, their sex lives and their chances of promotion,
> and some of them (hush, whisper who dares) are even women.            ords,

Has the demographic profile of the profession changed (In the USA)?
As compared with Oz, the UK, &c.?
Is there a "lost generation" of people who took their Ph.D.s in the
mid-1970s to mid-1980s, but who could not get jobs? So the Pazian
outlook has become the norm -- middle-aged men worried about our
health, our sex lives, with little hope for more pelf, trapped
in jobs we hate with colleagues who hate us? (Isn't this the plot
of a David Lodge novel?)

> There are also more women in the academy, who tend to
> drink less.

Do women drink less than men? Academic women than academic men?
I had the impression that the Southern academic women could
put it away with the men, while showing fewer effects -- but
perhaps this is a regional thing. (What about a cross-cultural
study of the drinking habits of Southern-US, Australian, and
Irish academics, controlled for gender?)

I also suspect we are much harder working than
> 20 years ago.

I think that the people who are in their 40s today do in fqact
work harder than those who were in their 40s twenty years ago.
On the whole, by-and-large.

Denis Paz
dgpaz@clemson.bitnet
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Organization: Univ. of Louisville
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1992 09:34:35 EDT
From:         Jim Cocks <JACOCK01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Online Archives, etc.
Comments: To: HISTORY%RUTVM1@RUTVM1.RUTGERS.EDU

> McGill School of Computing runs a database, called archie, that keeps a list
> of "anonymous" ftp sites. These sites allow you to log on using the username

To find out what is available via anonymous ftp and where, telnet to your
nearest archie server and login as *archie*.  At the archie prompt enter
*prog* followed by the string you want searched, eg., to find the sites
that offer the list of anonymous ftp sites enter

archie> prog ftp.list

If you want the results mailed back to you enter the following after
your search has been completed

archie> mail userid@domain

where userid@domain is the e-mail address you want the results mailed
to.  The available archie servers are located at:

                   archie.rutgers.edu   (New Jersey)
                   archie.unl.edu       (Nebraska)
                   archie.sura.net      (SuraNet)
                   archie.ans.net       (ANS Network Services)
                   archie.mcgill.ca     (Canada)
                   archie.doc.ic.ac.uk  (Europe)
                   archie.funet.fi      (Europe)
                   archiecs.huji.ac.il  (Israel)
                   archie.au            (Australia)

Cheers,
  Jim Cocks
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1992 08:50:24 PDT
From:         David Baird <DBAIRD@PEPVAX.BITNET>
Subject: Re: Online Archives, etc.

Peter,
On our system here at Pepperdine, we gain access to library on-line
catalogs by simply typing "libs" at the prompt (once, of course, we are
into the mainframe).  At that point a menu pops up that lists states;
chose one of those and it will tell you the libraries that you can access.
Good luck, David Baird, Pepperdine University
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1992 11:46:05 +1000
From:         Marion Diamond <med@LINGUA.CLTR.UQ.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: the value of money
Comments: To: HISTORY%RUTVM1.BITNET@pucc.Princeton.EDU

Fifty years ago in Australia, a telephone call, a postage stamp, and a
newspaper all cost twopence.  (ie. 2/12 of 10 Australian cents).  Now,
the telephone call costs 24c., the postage stamp is 43c. and the newspaper
is 80c.  I attribute this to the changes in the relative costs of labour
wood pulp and electronic technology, but there are probably other factors
involved - for instance, newspapers have become concentrated in a few
private hands, (ie. Rupert Murdoch, well-known US citizen) while the other
two are semi-government enterprises.
Marion
med@lingua.cltr.uq.oz.au
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Vmsmail-To: SMTP%"HISTORY%RUTVM1.BITNET@PSUVM.PSU.EDU"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 11:37:28 -0400
From:         Jane Burchfield <BURCHFLD@JADE.BUCKNELL.EDU>
Subject:      Re: the value of money
Comments: To: HISTORY%RUTVM1.BITNET@PSUVM.PSU.EDU

You might want to check out a new publication designed to help researchers
make some sense out of the relative value of currency.
"How Much Is That In Real Money?: A Historical Price Index for Use as a
Deflator of Money Values in the Economy of the United States" published
by the American Antiquarian Society.
It'll provide some help.....at least for the Americanists among us.

Jane Burchfield
Bucknell University
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Fri, 4 Sep 1992 14:01:46 EDT
From:         Lenny <LABBEY@GTRI01.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: PS to the previous post about JFK

I think that the Zapruder film was 8mm.  Very few amateurs ever used
16mm for home movies.  The cost was about 3X that of 8mm.  There were almost
no basic 16mm cameras avaiable then.


Lenny
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.history
Date:         Wed, 26 Aug 1992 20:37:20 -0400
From:         Agnes Kruchio <kruchio@EPAS.UTORONTO.CA>
Subject:      Garfield (as in President) quote
Comments: To: HISTORY@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu
              "DGPAZ%CLEMSON.BITNET@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu" at Aug 26, 92 4:13 pm

Dear History Listers -

This evening I saw Mark Russell's special on PBS (research, you
understand), and he referred to a quote supposedly uttered by
President Garfield: (words to the effect, this is a not a precise
quote of Russell)

	`Democracy couldn't exist without the
	wisdom - and the folly - of the people'.

Did Garfield really ever say this and if so, when - and what was
the context?

Agnes
kruchio@epas.utoronto.ca
(who really wasn't kidding and *is* really working on a paper to do with
democracy...)
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU