From: strom@Watson.Ibm.Com (Rob Strom)
Subject: Re: Very Old question for Rob Levene
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 92 20:22:24 GMT
Organization: IBM Research

In article <1992Oct2.084714.18025@pbs.org>, btiffany@pbs.org writes:

|> Next question:  Who cares?  Nobody's claiming that MJ's adhere to Rabbinism,
|> which essentially is the rejection of Yeshua in favor of a sort of
|> mystical humanistic system of works righteousness which runs contrary to
|> the Spirit of Torah.
|> 
What exactly do you claim is contrary to the spirit of Torah?

(a) mystical?
(b) humanistic?
(c) works righteousness?

Actually, although Judaism has both mystical and rationalistic
elements, from my perspective it is less mystical than Christianity.
But what is wrong with (b) or (c)?


|> 
|> 2) Rejection of Yeshua is the effect of Rabbinic principles which were
|> designed to produce that effect.
|> 

Please post one of the "Rabbinic principles" which you claim was *designed*
to produce the effect of rejecting Jesus. 


|> 
|> Yeshua is alive.  I and many others know Him personally.  And He will return,
|> according to the Bible.  Schneerson won't be alive much longer.  Pretty soon
|> you guys are going to have to quit hollering about how Yeshua isn't the
|> Messiah of Israel and produce your own.
|> 

I won't debate your view that Jesus is alive --- that is
a faith tenet of Christianity.  But why do you think we Jews
have to produce a Messiah "pretty soon"?

|> >Use of the term Judaism to denote what I believe is more accurate,
|> >since placing Christianity within "Judaism" makes the
|> >term "Judaism" meaningless.
|> 
|> Only if Judaism is characterized by rejection of Yeshua would it take away
|> the meaning of Judaism.  This is true for Rabbinic Judaism, not
|> Biblical Judaism.

No.

It's because Christianity differs from Judaism in dozens of essential
ways, not just over who the Messiah was.  Every Jewish believer
in Jesus whom I've met has also changed each of these dozens of
essential beliefs to conform to the Christian understanding when
he/she converted to Christianity.  That's why it's misleading
to call such an individual anything other than a "Christian
convert from Judaism".

|> 
|> >> In the same way, accepting Yeshua means rejecting many of the tenets of
|> >> Rabbinism regarding the Messiah, which were developed in opposition to
|> >> Messianic Judaism long ago.
|> > 
|> >I'm beginning to think that "Messianic Judaism[sic]" is characterized
|> >by a belief that Judaism is characterized by rejection of Jesus, since
|> >you continually assert it without proof.
|> 
|> Others have offered ample proof in this forum.
|> 

Please summarize.


|> > 
|> >To prove your assertion, you would have to demonstrate that
|> >rejection of Jesus is unique.  The reality is that Judaism
|> >rejects all the other religions, too.
|> 
|> Again your falacious assumption that acceptance of Yeshua automatically
|> makes one a practitioner of a "different religion" -- the auto-rejection
|> Harvey was talking about.  But you are wrong, and no such "proof" is
|> required.  We're talking about RJ's rejecting the *Jewish* Messiah,
|> Yeshua.  Yeshua is not Southern Baptist.
|> 

Jews have rejected other Jewish Messiah-claimants, not just Jesus.
If he didn't restore the Jewish nation, he's not the Messiah.

Christians had to come up with several ways around this:
(1) The belief that Jesus isn't really dead,  (isn't this "mystical"?)
(2) the belief that Jesus will come back,
(3) a new definition of "restore" and "the Jewish nation".

It's (1) - (3) above that we call the "different religion".

-- 
Rob Strom, strom@watson.ibm.com, (914) 784-7641
IBM Research, 30 Saw Mill River Road, P.O. Box 704, Yorktown Heights, NY  10598