HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich)
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Subject: Re: Rail Access to Airports
Date: 20 Aug 92 13:30:06 GMT
Organization: LLNL


	After reading all the articles and mail messages on this
subject, I can conclude the following about rail access to major
airports:

	The large majority of the European cities mentioned (London,
Birmingham, Amsterdam, Brussels, Du"sseldorf, Paris, Barcelona), as
well as Tokyo, have rail lines going right inside or or next door to
their major airports (the case of Paris).

	American cities do not fare nearly as well.  Of these, only
Philadelphia, Chicago, Atlanta, and Cleveland have direct rail access
to the airport terminals; Washington, DC (National only), Oakland,
Boston, and San Jose require a short bus ride, while most other cities
(San Francisco, Seattle, Portland, Los Angeles) require a relatively
long bus ride.

	I wonder why rail access has not been a very high priority in
the US as it has in other countries, which often have _intercity_ rail
lines going to airports, in addition to urban-transit or commuter
lines. Maybe it is just another case of car chauvinism :-). There is
one American place, however, that will join the club pretty soon:
Oakland. There is an Amtrak station to be built at the Oakland
Coliseum stadium and arena, near where there is already a BART
station. The airport bus service that already serves BART will also
serve this new Amtrak station. Stopping there will be the recently
introduced Capitol line, which goes between San Jose and Sacramento.

/Loren
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: wb8foz@skybridge.SCL.CWRU.Edu (David Lesher)
Subject: Re: DC fare collection method (was: Others vs BART)
Reply-To: wb8foz@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu (David Lesher)
Organization: NRK Clinic for habitual NetNews abusers - Beltway Annex
Distribution: na
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 92 19:15:37 GMT


{many unquoted lines amount to:
	You can use ADDFARE only to the exact amount needed to
	exit - That's bad.

	If you didn't, the tickets would overflow...
}
As I use Metro daily, I must be a UseNet Expert (tm)...

1) Yes, if you have too little on a farecard, ADDFARE machines will
only allow you to add the exact fare needed. Then the exit gate
swallows & keeps your card.

2) You can ADD money to an existing card, or more properly, trade in an
old card and cash for a new one, at a selling machine; those located
outside the turnstile.

3) Yes, if you put lots of money on a card, you can 'overflow' the card
with transactions. It can only handle ?12? trips. The card stores data
on when and where you bought it, and each and every entrance/exit. If
you attempt to enter with a card on a {say} 13th trip, it refuses, and
you go feed the card into a selling machine that will give you a new
one worth the same amount.

4) If you attempt to enter with a card with so little value that you
could not take even the cheapest trip, it won't let you in.
Trade it in at a selling machine.

I can't say that ANY of the above rules bother me. Unless you become
emotionally attached to one specific fare card, and want to keep it
always; why should it matter if WMATA wants to give you a new one
free?

(ps: I HAVE thought of one reason - you wrote the phone number of that
stunning woman you just met on the Red Line on your card, and the
machine said "Exact Fare - card retained" ;-}
--
A host is a host from coast to coast..wb8foz@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu
& no one will talk to a host that's close..........................
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
From: schumann@msus1.msus.edu
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Subject: Re: NYCTA - to JFK (was Re: From Penn Station to JFK)
Date: 13 Aug 92 12:01:55 -0600
Distribution: na
Organization: Minnesota State University System

In article <86085@netnews.upenn.edu>,
sfsmith@pennsas.upenn.edu (Sandy F. Smith, Jr.) writes:
> In article <1992Aug13.005927.21287@usenet.ins.cwru.edu>,
> wb8foz@skybridge.SCL.CWRU.Edu (David Lesher) writes:
>> 
> [re: my earlier post on Robert Moses' road-building practices:]
>> 
>> This sounds like Cleveland. The {long gone now} County Engineer, also
>> the Party Chairman, would not HEAR of a wide medium when I-90 was being
>> planned & built. Some might say that was due to his relationship with
>> the contractors building the roads, and developers that just happened
>> to own the land........
>> 
>> I hope they have to pave his gravesite for a parking lot.
> 
> This now begs a question.
> 
> We now have evidence from at least three large cities (New York, Cleveland,
> Los Angeles) that the highway folks saw to it that their tunnel vision (pun
> intended) on transportation would guide future development in their cities.
> 
> Howcum the folks in Chicago managed to see the logic of building freeways
> _and_ rapid transit _together_ in the 1950's, when just about everyone else
> in power missed it?

I grew up in Chicago, lived there full time until I went away to 
college and to get a job, and still get back there several times a 
year to visit family and friends and to do some big-city railfanning.

While he certainly had his faults, "hizzoner" (pardon by Chicagoism)
Mayor Richard J. Daley (father of the current mayor of Chicago)
deserves some of the credit for having a sweeping vision of the
future.

Hizzoner got to be a powerful AND popular mayor by dealing both with
the "small" problems (e.g., a crumbling curb in front of your house)
and with what our current president would probably call "the vision
thing."

Daley seldom thought small.  He tried to make everyone happy. "You
want to drive?  Well, I've got a highway project for you.  You want to
take public transit?  Well, I've got a rapid transit project for you."
It was this kind of approach to city government that earned Chicago
the nickname "The city that works" during his reign. 

(Again, let me emphasize that I did not then and do not now endorse 
everything that he did.  He certainly had many faults and made many 
mistakes.  His "shoot to kill" order to the police can certainly be 
questioned.  But that discussion belongs on another newsgroup. :-)  )
--
   Paul L. Schumann, Ph.D.           |  VAX:  IN%"schumann@MSUS1.MSUS.EDU"
   Professor of Management           |  Office Phone:       (507) 389-5349
   Mankato State University          |  Secretary's Phone:  (507) 389-2966
   Mankato, MN   56002-8400          |  Fax Number:         (507) 389-5497

Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: jbvb@vax.ftp.com  (James B. VanBokkelen)
Subject: Re: My Amtrak Vacation
Nntp-Software: PC/TCP NNTP
Reply-To: jbvb@ftp.com
Organization: FTP Software, Inc., Wakefield, MA
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 13:51:03

Things may have changed in the past year, but I've always found it
rewarding to use the Southwest Chief instead of the San Francisco
Zephyr.  The ATSF's double-track mainline and high speed track only
take ~4 hours more from Chicago to the Bay Area (with a Coast
Starlight connection).  From Los Angeles it takes several hours less.
The D&RGW line is nice, but Raton and Glorieta passes are also pretty
neat.  Taking pictures in daylight at Albaquerque or La Junta or KC
as the train is serviced is better than Denver or Salt Lake in the dark.

A lot of the problem with the Zephyr is the merger/separation of two 
connecting trains, with concommittant summing of delays.  I bet the
reason the EB Desert Wind was late at Fullerton was that the WB had
been too late to get the cars ready in time.  Amtrak does manage to
do train combinations reasonably well on the Corridor (at New Haven)
and at Albany, but in both cases they have spare equipment available,
and they're only a few hours from one end of the run.

I hope the Zephyr's timekeeping isn't so bad it keeps traffic down -
what's needed to fix the problem is two trains between Chicago and Denver.
Done properly, this provides a fallback for the connection, and serves
Lincoln and Omaha during waking hours.

James B. VanBokkelen		26 Princess St., Wakefield, MA  01880
FTP Software Inc.		voice: (617) 246-0900  fax: (617) 246-0901

Xref: sparky rec.railroad:6442 ba.transportation:1950 talk.politics.misc:39209 talk.environment:3225
From: bob@1776.COM (Robert Coe)
Newsgroups: rec.railroad,ba.transportation,talk.politics.misc,talk.environment
Subject: Cost of transit systems vs highways
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 08:11:14 EDT
Distribution: na
Organization: 1776 Enterprises, Sudbury MA

gary@ke4zv.uucp (Gary Coffman) writes:
> You can build a hell of a lot of highway for the cost of a transit system.
> MARTA cost 9 times as much as *all* 5 freeways in Atlanta *combined* while
> carrying only 10% of the passengers.

But weren't the freeways built first, when land values and construction costs
were lower?  I suspect that if the transit system had been built before the
roads, the result of this comparison would have been radically different.
Most densely populated cities find that the cost of building a mile of rail
transit is a lot less than that of a mile of freeway.  One win is that once
a transit system's downtown sections (usually underground and very expensive)
have been built, extensions to outlying areas can often be built at grade at
a much lower cost per mile.

> MARTA still doesn't go where the majority of people want to go. 

Well, that's a fair criticism, but it should be levelled against the MARTA
planners, not against public transit generally.  There's certainly no reason
in principle why transit systems can't go where the people want to go.  But
beyond that, Boston (the city with whose situation I'm most familiar) has
found that the opening of a new subway station invariably results in an in-
crease in pedestrian traffic and land values in the vicinity of the station.
"Where people want to go" is to some extent driven by where the transit sys-
tem goes.

   ___            _                                           -  Bob
   /__) _   /    / ) _   _
(_/__) (_)_(_)  (___(_)_(/_______________________________________ bob@1776.COM
Robert K. Coe ** 14 Churchill St, Sudbury, Massachusetts 01776 ** 508-443-3265
From: BRANDT_JOBST/HP1900_01@HPLOMG.HPL.HP.COM
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Subject: Re: _Scientific American_ profiles Maglev Trains
Date: 21 Aug 92 18:04:59 GMT

Re: Vaughn Wolffe

> Over 4th of July I went to Santa Fe on Amtrak. The cows grazing next to the
> track did not look up at our train or the highway next to it. Heck,they didn't
> even look up when we stopped in the middle of nowhere because the loco died.

If you are implying that cows know anything about noise I think you are
using an invalid measure.  Burrowing owls and jack rabbits are similarly
unmoved by a 747's taking off at our major airports.  Their intransigence
has no relation to noise levels.  That trains make noise is probably well
documented.  Whether it is more or less objectionable than highway noise
is disputable.  I for one spent a couple of summers on the WP sleeping in
outfit cars parked directly next to the mainline and found no problem
sleeping.  Others might complain.

jobst_brandt@hplabs.hp.com
From: grr@cbmvax.commodore.com (George Robbins)
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Subject: Re: Restroom Closings on Amtrak (Was: My Amtrak Vacation)
Date: 18 Aug 92 20:33:40 GMT
Reply-To: grr@cbmvax.commodore.com (George Robbins)
Distribution: usa
Organization: Commodore, West Chester, PA

In article <1992Aug18.122644.727@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> ggg9y@poe.acc.Virginia.EDU (Garth G. Groff) writes:
> John:
> 
> While I don't blame the crew for walking off the job, your
> choice of the term "Amtrak dumped" seems to imply that the
> train crew emptied the toilets.  If you think about it, you
> will remember that the passengers are the ones operating 
> the flush buttons.  Even the passengers can't tell where
> they are dumping their do-do.  IMO it is only indirectly
> Amtrak's fault, since they can't easily control passenger
> behavior.  They still bear some responsibility, however,
> for buying cars without holding tanks.

I really don't understand your logic at all.  Amtrak bears 100%
of the responsbility for this decision.  They specify/purchase
the cars and it is entirely their option to select a holding
system vs. treat & dump.

Since, if I recall, there are no or no clear windows in the
restroom, it's certainly not the passengers problem.

>                                                  It is rather 
> surprising in these days of supposed ecological consciousness
> that they would have accepted such a design, and even more
> surprising that they haven't bebuilt the systems.

I guess the treatment is supposed to render the wastes more or
less dis-infected, and the railroads dumping on their private
roadbeds is grandfathered in or ignored.  After all there were
about 100 years of open hopper drops onto tracks before the
airline style toilets.

-- 
George Robbins - now working for,     uucp:   {uunet|pyramid|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr
but no way officially representing:   domain: grr@cbmvax.commodore.com
Commodore, Engineering Department     phone:  215-431-9349 (only by moonlite)
From: johna@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (john.a.welsh)
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Subject: Re: ``Railroad Days'' on the Black River and Western
Summary: What's at Ringoes
Date: 18 Aug 92 12:35:50 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: AT&T


In reference to what is at Ringoes, NJ on the BR&W, here is 
a brief listing of what they have:
The Alco RS is an RS-1.
They also have a pair of CF-7s (ex Santa Fe, of course).
The coaches are ex DL&W Boonton Line cars, built around 1900.
The Alco switcher (no short hood, notches on the nose) is a T-6.
As for customers, they have precious few left.  They lost some
grain/feed customers in the last few years, so most of their
work is in plastic pellets and dry bulk.  They had and hopefully
still have a bulk unloader business in Ringoes.  Most of their
business is between the Conrail interchange at 3-Bridges (almost
under the Rt 202 bridge north of Flemington)  and Flemington.
The history of the line is that the Flemington - Ringoes - Lambertville
portion is a Pennsylvania RR branch line (off of the Bel-Del) and
the Flemington - 3-Bridges portion is CNJ.  The  Conrail line is
Lehigh Valley, so until BR&W needed a connection, there would have
been no interchange at that point.  I believe that most of the BR&W's 
freight originally came in at the Lambertville end off of the Bel Del.
This was changed when the Bel Del was torn out in the area.  The rest
of the CNJ line is also torn out, so the parts of the BR&W use none
of their historic interchanges.  I find this weird, seeing that the BR&W
is a history minded railroad.
From: CZ94@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA (CZ94000)
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Subject: LRC locomotives (was Re: VIA's excellent...)
Date: 15 Aug 92 20:47:04 GMT
Organization: McGill University

In article <1992Aug14.162208.4967@gw.wmich.edu> 31ochs@gw.wmich.edu writes:
>
>Just out of curiosity, but does VIA still use the LRC engines?
>I remember seeing them a couple years ago on the International
>(Amtrak's joint train with VIA from Chicago to Toronto. The have a "train
>set" of VIA and a set of Amtrak)
>Usually, the train was late, and when it arrived, it had a GT engine on
>the front, because the LRC had died. Did they sound like an Alco, since
>they have a 251 prime mover?
>Thanks,
>
Yes, the LRC locomotives are still in use.  VIA bought 31 units
between 1980 and 1984 (numbers 6900-6930).  According to the
Canadian Trackside Guide, 1992, ten of these are still in use,
20 are stored, and one has been retired.

These units are used on VIA's late afternoon Montreal-Toronto express,
the Metropolis (trains #166-167).  A typical consist is a locomotive,
a club car, 3 coaches, and another locomotive.

LRC units are also used on the early morning Montreal-Toronto trains,
the York (trains #60-61).  I've ridden #61 a couple of times recently.
We were on time and didn't seem to have any engine trouble.

These are VIA's fastest engines.  Designed to go 125 mph, they are
restricted to 95 mph in service, because of the limitations of
signalling and level crossings.  VIA's 59 F40s were built for 90 mph
operation.  Twenty-two of them have been modified to go up to 95 mph.
However, unlike the LRCs, they are only allowed this speed on tangent
track, and are restricted to conventional train speeds on curved
track.

I must admit I've never paid much attention to the sound of diesels.
I couldn't tell an Alco from an EMD with my eyes closed.  What should
I be listening for?

Tom Box
CZ94@MUSICA.MCGILL.CA
From: warrenc@bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Cherie Warren)
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Subject: Re: Rail Access to Airports
Date: 18 Aug 92 00:09:46 GMT
Organization: Boeing Computer Services, Seattle

lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich) writes:

>	Here is a somewhat comprehensive list, gleaned from postings
>here and personal research:


>The Bay Area: San Francisco International Airport
>	Oakland International Airport
>	San Jose International Airport

>Los Angeles: LA International Airport

>Philadelphia:

>New York City: JFK International Airport
>	LaGuardia Airport
>	Newark Airport

>Washington, DC: Washington National Airport
>	Baltimore-Washington International Airport
>	Dulles International Airport

>London: Heathrow Airport

>Of these, my direct experience has only been with the SF airport (pain
>in the butt!), Philadelphia (very nice!), and Newark (only once, in
>both directions; I got really worried about the bus making it in time
>for my plane, but it did)

Others having noted Chicago (connection via CTA subway/elevated), let's go
overseas:

Tokyo: Narita Airport
       JR Narita Express (N'EX) from basement station to Tokyo Station
       Keisei Skyliner Express to Ueno Station
       Both of these options are rather expensive, but the trains are
       comfortable and quiet, expecially the new N'EX trains.  About
       Y3000 (nearly US$25) to get into town!

       Haneida Airport
       Monorail to Tokyo Station
       Unusual setup, much cheaper (shorter distance!), but most inter-
       national flights arrive at Narita...

Duesseldorf: Duesseldorf Airport
             S-Bahn connection directly to Duesseldorf Hauptbahnhof, at
	     edge of city centre; easy transfer to underground trains,
	     bus, taxis.

Frankfurt: Rhein/Main Airport
           S-Bahn connection directly to Frankfurt Hauptbahnhof; train
	   station is in basement; DB ticket office will sell tickets
	   to anywhere in Germany, usually via Frankfurt HBf, but also
	   directly to Mainz, Cologne and other points north and west.

Brussels: Brussels Airport at Zaventem
          Train departs from underground airport station, just across
	  terminal driveup road from main terminal; access by escalator
	  or elevator; connections to North and Central train stations.

Amsterdam: Schiphol Airport
           Train station connected via passageway to airport; direct
	   connections to Centraal Station in city centre, or RAI in
	   southern part of the city.

Of these, I've had experience with all except the Haneida monorail.  The
expense of N'EX is made up for in speed, comfort, and lack of traffic jams.
Tokyo's expressways can be the site of some legendary backups.  The four
European cities have more similarities than differences in their setups;
all get you to town quickly, comfortably, and cheaply.

Vienna (Austria, not Virginia :-) Schwechat Airport is supposed to have con-
venient rail connection to the city-centre; and Munich's new Strauss Air-
port is also supposed to have S-Bahn connections.  Haven't tried 'em
yet.
--
Don
dgs1300@aw2.fsl.ca.boeing.com (guest on this account)
Newsgroups: rec.railroad,ba.transportation,talk.politics.misc,talk.environment
From: lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich)
Subject: Re: Cost of transit systems vs highways
Organization: LLNL
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 06:55:16 GMT

In article <JMC.92Aug19205657@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU writes:
>I have a question about SimCity.  I thought about buying it for my son
>to play, but I worried about it having propaganda built in.  Does anyone
>have any comments about it?

	I haven't played it at all, but I've seen some articles on it.
Propaganda contained inside was not too apparent :-)

	Why don't you play it yourself if you're so worried about your
kid, and see if any propaganda comes up?

Newsgroups: rec.railroad
From: smills@news.weeg.uiowa.edu (MuffinHead)
Subject: Train rides
Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 07:24:59 GMT

First post to rec.railroad.

   I've only been on a moving train 3 times in my life. The first was on
a steam loc painted bright blue at some fair. Next was our senior class
trip on Amtrak to Colorado. Both of these were before I got into trains.
The 3rd was on the Star Clipper dinner train in Waverly, IA. They have a
couple Fsomethings, maybe F7's? I'm not that good at spotting locomotives.
   My hometown lost its railroad about 10 years ago. Then they bought it
and ran it for about a year. Damn trucking line put it out of business. I
loved watching the brown or red Milwaukee engines pull into town when I was
little. Or was it Rock Island? Both I think. Oh well.
From: 31ochs@gw.wmich.edu
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Subject: Re: usefule information for finding the good spots
Date: 18 Aug 92 17:28:57 EST
Organization: Western Michigan University

In article <920817135535@d-cell.ftp.com>, stev@vax.ftp.com  (stev knowles) writes:
> 
> 
> i will be in maryland in a few weeks attending a wedding (hi, john!). i know
> that a big interchange between NS and conrail happens in hagerstown
> somewhere. can anyone provide details on what is where and how to get there?
> good locations to photo froom would also be useful. areas to stay way from
> because of local rules or places one can get close would also be appreciated
>  . . . .

The old WM shops used to be in Hagarstown, I know CSX still uses the area,
but I don't know if the shops are still there. I've never been out to
Maryland, so I don't have any knowledge of the area.

Fred
From: ds@scammell.ecos.tne.oz.au (Dale Smithyman)
Subject: Re: Cost of transit systems vs highways
Organization: Telecom Australia, Information Technology Development
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 22:44:41 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.065516.18778@s1.gov> lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich) writes:
>In article <JMC.92Aug19205657@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU writes:
>>I have a question about SimCity.  I thought about buying it for my son
>>to play, but I worried about it having propaganda built in.  Does anyone
>>have any comments about it?

I have played it extensively and found it to be extremely enjoyable and 
informative. It can be downright frustrating at times. Propaganda (???), I
dunno, I didn't notice any. There is also a version calle SimEarth which
obviously works on a global scale.


-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dale Smithyman		ds@scammell.ecos.tne.oz.au
The views expressed here are not necessarily the same as those of my employer
(bless his unbleached cotton socks).
From: muth@a.cs.wvu.wvnet.edu (Wayne A Muth)
Newsgroups: rec.railroad
Subject: Re. Top Ten Shrines ...Western Railroading
Date: 21 Aug 92 14:38:18 GMT


  Candidate -> the "tunnel district" between Denver and the
  Moffet Tunnel on D&RGW -> approx. 30 tunnels in 50 miles more
  or less.