HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: "alexander inglis" <alexander.inglis@canrem.com>
Subject: pianists
Reply-To: "alexander inglis" <alexander.inglis@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: rec
Date: 13 Dec 92 16:49:35 EST

DB>>: I want to get some feedback on a thought I've been having...
  >:
  >: Is it my imagination or are we in a time singularly short of good pianists
  >: In the last 15 years, we have seen the deaths of Rubinstein, Horowitz, Arr
  >: Gould, Hungerford (if you know him)... who remains of this quality?

DB>Not to mention Serkin and Solomon (died 1988).

DB>: I have respect for Richter, less for Barenboim, none for Pollini.

DB>Why none for Pollini? I think he's a far finer pianist than Barenboim.
  >I know he can overintellectualise on occasion, but technically he is
  >surely supreme - listen to the last movement of his Hammerklavier.

DB>: I also think Richard Goode is a hell of a guy...yet none of these people
  >: seem to really *have it* to the degree of the aforementioned, or to go bac
  >: earlier, of Lipatti, Schnabel, Cortot, Hoffmann, Busoni, etc...
  >:
  >: Personally, I think the culprit is TV.

DB>The culprit is more likely the gramophone and the 'global village'.

I'm not sure I'd agree at all that we are "fresh out" of pianists of the
sort you mention. Most great pianists are recognized as such well into
their careers. Then, once they are established as Great, we tend to look
for more evidence in their earlier recorded legacy. What were once fine
recordings, or perhaps controversial ones, are now also suddenly endowed
with a Great Performance moniker.

I'm impressed by a number of fine players out there at the moment. To
name just two of the younger set: Pogorelich and Pletnev.

I also don't think we can *blame* TV, the gramophone or the global
village. If anything, modern life and the propensity to record every
(in)significant event just makes it harder to stand out or measure up.
But like water filling a basin, I believe it raises the standards -- and
surely that's a Good Thing.

Alexander Inglis  |  InterNet: alexander.inglis@canrem.com
Toronto,  Canada  |  CompuServe: 70307,20     BIX: ainglis
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker)
Subject: Re: Urban legends (was: score reading)
Organization: Camosun College, Victoria B.C, Canada
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 00:26:02 GMT

mvalinis@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Michael J Valinis) writes:
: I am reminded of the apocryphal story of the young conductor who wanted to 
: impress the orchestra.  It seems that he wrote a false F# into a second basson 
: part.  At the next rehearsal, he stopped the orchestra at the appropriate 
: place, yelling "No! No! That should be an F natural in the second bassoon".  
: The first bassoon then told him that the second had the flu and was home in bed
: that day......

This sounds like the story quoted in one of Stephen Potter's books in
which Lifeman #something W. Goehr, subdued the BBC Northern SO by
writing a fake B natural in the part of the 5th double bass in an
'unfamiliar symphony by Mahler' (which dates it somewhat!) at one of
the most noisily climactic poarts of the score. During rehearsal he
said 'somebody is playing B natural instead of B flat'. Acrimonioius
discussion followed until the mistake was rectified and the orchestra
were thenceforth submissive to the new conductor.

Although written in a jocular fashion, many of the people in potter's
books are real, as are many of the incidents. Walter Goehr (father of
Alexander) was a second-string conductor for mamny years. I suspect
this may be the source of the story you heard.

--
Real:  Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept., Camosun College, Victoria B.C.
Email: (dbarker@spang.camosun.bc.ca)
Phone: +1 604 370 4452
From: chem91@Elroy.UH.EDU ("Bill Harrison (713)-743-2789")
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Lost Masterpieces was Re: Dresden was Re: One-work-composers
Date: 17 Dec 1992 23:45:10 GMT
Organization: University of Houston
Reply-To: chem91@Elroy.UH.EDU
NNTP-Posting-Host: elroy.uh.edu

>
>
>New thread:  Presumably great works which were, or might have been, 
>lost or destroyed.
>

I heard/read(?) that Shostakovich was working on a 16th Symphony when he
died, and parts of it were in performable form???? 

Any confirmation???


+ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\               /~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Bill Harrison,            \             /       "Be as radical as... |
| University of Houston, TX  >-----------<         reality itself"     |
| CHEM91@JETSON.BITNET      /             \                V. I. Lenin |
+ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~/               \~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster)
Subject: Re: Requia
In-reply-to: jfh@netcom.com's message of Fri, 11 Dec 1992 16:31:16 GMT
Organization: pubs
	<1992Dec11.163116.24950@netcom.com>
Date: 11 Dec 92 12:55:37 CST


Any comments about Dvorak's Requiem?  I've had quite different reactions
the few times I've heard it.

Chris Brewster
cb@cray.com
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: nad@cray.com (Ned Deily)
Subject: Re: The BEST finale!
Date: 17 Dec 92 00:43:28 CST

In article <1gnii7INNibh@master.cs.rose-hulman.edu> stinerkt@NeXTwork.Rose-Hulman.Edu (Kevin T Stiner) writes:
>What is YOUR favorite ending or finale to a classical piece?

Adding to the list of "big" endings* (the more bombast**, the better):

Boito, Mefistofele  [goes without saying]
Dupre, G minor Fugue Op.7
Mascagni, Cavalleria Rusticana
Messiaen, Dieu parmi Nous
Prokofiev, 1st Piano Concerto
Strauss, Elektra
Tchaikovsky, Francesca da Rimini  [always feel exhausted after this]
 
and, pulling his punches at the last moment,
Rachmaninoff's Paganini Thing.

--Ned
  nad@cray.com

* big ending, not big-endian
** Read "Bombarde" for "bombast" with the Dupre & Messiaen.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: nsh3@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Nadine S Harris)
Subject: Re: Which MEFISTOFELES CD?
Reply-To: nsh3@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Nadine S Harris)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 15:42:42 GMT

In article <1992Dec11.173605.25810@news2.cis.umn.edu>
jill@gopher.ccbr.umn.edu (Jill Hollifield) writes:

>In article <4095@phred.UUCP> jimn@phred.UUCP writes: 

>We checked out a library video of San Francisco Opera's lush
>Mefistofeles production       [ . . . . ]

>>Recommendations for a comparably powerful CD of this opera, please!
>>Many thanks.

In addition to the new Ramey recording, the old (late sixties or early
seventies) EMI recording with Norman Treigle as Mefistofeles, and
Domingo and Caballe, is the record of a legendary performance and
production at the New York City OPera.  

Ramey took the role over (after a decade) and I was lucky enough to
see both (Treigle only once; Ramey many times) do it.  Comparisons are
odious, but you cannot distill from this recording much of Ramey's
phenomenal performance. The earlier recording captures what is almost
a festival air, and three performers at their peak (well Treigle was
becoming ill and vocally had sounded better, but dramatically, it's
quite palpable).

Organization: University Libraries - Administration, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 17:03:49 -0500 
From: Ignatios Alexander <ia0n+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Review: Janacek string quartets
	<1992Dec15.195016.1072@fid.morgan.com>

>From: apter@fid.morgan.com (Steve Apter):
>Do yourself a BIG favor.  Get hold of an alternative performance of
>these pieces.  I'd recommend either the Hagen on DG, who emphasize their
>expressionist content, or the Travnicek on Opus, who simply outplay
>all competition......

Let me add my vote for the Travnicek recording of the Janacek quartets.
I have heard only an older analog recording by the Smetana Quartet, and
the Travnicek is the one I prefer.  

---Ignatios


Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: altizer@figaro (Robert Altizer)
Subject: NEED HELP: Converting catches to 2 voices
Reply-To: altizer@chdasic.sps.mot.com
Organization: Motorola SPS
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 18:01:25 GMT

My madrigal quartet has gotten several jobs at which we plan to do some of
the bawdy (and otherwise) catches from "The Catch Book" (Oxford U Press).
Now we find that two of the singers can't make some of the dates and we're
left with two voices, soprano and bass, to cover the gigs!

Can anyone offer advice on converting catches written for three or four
voices to two, or suggest alternate sources of material?  We'll learn new
pieces if needs be to fill our 20-30 minute sets, and have until mid-February
before the first performance date.

Thanks in advance, and happy holidays!
Bob

---
#-------------------------------------------------------------------------#
# Robert Altizer - Motorola ASIC SQA          altizer@chdasic.sps.mot.com #
# 1300 North Alma School Road, M/S CH240                     R10908@email #
# Chandler AZ 85224-8517 USA                (602) 821-4249(v)/821-4167(f) #
#-------------------------------------------------------------------------#
# Nature has neither kernel nor shell, she is everything at once. -Goethe #                    #-------------------------------------------------------------------------#

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker)
Subject: Re: Brahms Symphonies
Organization: Camosun College, Victoria B.C, Canada
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 01:17:19 GMT

apter@fid.morgan.com (Steve Apter) writes:
: In article <chomicki.724092970@antares.cis.ksu.edu.cis.ksu.edu> chomicki@cis.ksu.edu (Jan Chomicki) writes:
: >I'd like to solicit opinions about the best performances of Brahms
: >Symphonies, both individual symphonies and complete cycles. In particular,
: >is the critically acclaimed (according to Stevenson's) cycle by
: >Wand worth obtaining? Thank you.
: >
: >-- 
: >Jan Chomicki				Computing and Information Sciences
: >chomicki@cis.ksu.edu			234 Nichols Hall
: >Phone: (913) 532-6350			Kansas State University
: >Fax: (913) 532-7353			Manhattan, KS 66506-2302
: 
: 1:	Klemperer (EMI), Furtwangler (DG)

And if you ever spot the 1951 NDRO/Furtwaengler (Nuova Era) snap it up
- I think it's WF's finest, which makes it top of the heap, IMO.

: 2:	no recommendation

Walter (Sony).

: 3:	Levine (RCA), Furtwangler (DG)

Also Cantelli (EMI).

: 4:	Kleiber (DG), Celibidache (Movimento Musica)

The 1948 Furtwaengler (ERMI Japan, ASDisc, Virtuoso, Toshiba)
outclasses them all.

I have also to put in a word for the 1952 Philharmonia/Toscanini set
of all 4, plus the Tragic Ov. and Haydn Variations (Hunt). I don't
normally warm much to AT, but these performances totally outclass his
NBC ones. Sound is fairly good, although there are some extraneous
bangs in the 4th, caused by some idiots letting off fireworks on the
roof of the Royal Festival Hall.

The 1952 PO was one of the great bands, including Dennis Brain on
horn, and, among the string players recruited to bolsert the sound at
AT's request, a young back-row 2nd violinist called Neville Marriner
(apparently it was this experience which made him want to conduct).
For those who - like me - think Toscanini is grossly overrated.

But he's still not as good as Furtwaengler.....

--
Real:  Deryk Barker, Computer Science Dept., Camosun College, Victoria B.C.
Email: (dbarker@spang.camosun.bc.ca)
Phone: +1 604 370 4452
From: ujwb@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Jeff Beer)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: The worst composer in a millenium
Date: 13 Dec 92 21:51:06 GMT
Organization: Educational Computing Network

In article <1992Dec12.235226.15965@Princeton.EDU> langs@puhep1.princeton.edu (David Langs) writes:
>In article <1992Dec12.165335.17469@news.columbia.edu> rsm13@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Ravi S Moorthy) writes:
>>I had the misfortune of buying Oliver Messiaen's "Turangalila Symphony"
>>conducted by Rattle.  To give credit where it is due, it is the worst
>>music I have ever heard.  Pardon me Messiaen lovers, but I cannot make
>
>I must admit, I know people who place it at the top of their list of
>least favorite works.  (I don't know why).  I must also add that I have

Chicago Symphony performed Messiaen's Et Exspecto Resurrectionem
Mortuorum last week with Boulez conducting, along
with two Bartok's (including Dance Suite) and Ravel's left hand (with
Fleisher)   I saw it on a Thursday night, and because I was up late
Wednesday, I couldn't concentrate on the music as much, until the Messiaen
piece.  That piece just drew me in, and it certainly was the most profound
music experience I have had with the CSO.  
Et expecto has a lot of metallic percusion and gongs, the brass are
orchestrated to have a sound related to the metallic gongs, and the
music produces a meditative Asian kind of feeling.... it took me all 
the way out.  So I went the next night.

But it is always funny to hear people's comments as you walk out of
concerts where they do works from the 20th century that people aren't
used to hearing.  "A good night ruined by that last piece", or "It's
not music" and on and on and on.  I about got into a few fist fights.  
But those are the people that are missing out.

Myung-Whun Chung will be conducting the CSO in April, and the calander
listes "rememainder of program to be announced".  Since he has probably
the definitive version of Turangalila recorded with Bastille, I hope the
remainder of the program is going to be that.

Jeff

Jeff
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: mvalinis@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Michael J Valinis)
Subject: Re: Best endings
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 20:56:01 GMT

Respighi: _Feste Romane_

Because when it's finally done, there just isn't ANYTHING left to be said!
-- 
*>   Michael J. Valinis   -=+<*>+=-   mvalinis@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu   <*
*>=>  "Music is your own experience, your thoughts, your wisdom. If you  <=<*
*>+>=> don't live it, it won't come out of your horn." -Charlie Parker <=<+<*
*>=>+>=>+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+<=<+<=<*
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: jcm2w@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (John Clarke Mccanless)
Subject: Re: Good music for brass quintet
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 00:07:14 GMT

In article <1992Dec12.203637.973@netcom.com> bryan@netcom.com (Bryan Higgins) writes:
>sweaver3@mach1.wlu.ca (scott weaver 9209 U) writes:
>
>>There is another good brass quintet piece out there called "Suite from the Mon-
>>teregian Hills" by Dennis Calvert
>
>Morley Calvert, I believe.
>
>The Ingolf Dahl brass quintet is a great piece.  Also, check out "Brass
>Menagerie" by Cheatham.

Where?  Did anyone record these?

-- 
John C. McCanless				jcm2w@virginia.edu

"Genius!  Pure, unadulterated, GENIUS!!"  - Wile E. Coyote

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad)
Subject: Re: consensus on 2nd greatest opera [?]
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 15:13:23 GMT

In article <1992Dec14.234459.25915@news.cs.brandeis.edu> jacob@max.cc.brandeis.edu ( ) writes:

>1. i was wondering if there was a consensus on what the 2nd greatest
>   opera was. 

Easy answer.  No, of course there's no such consensus.

>   (note i'm not personally interested in arguing over what the
>   2nd greatest, or for that matter the 1nd greatest opera is, but simply if
>   there is a *consensus* of personal opinions on that count -- i'm under
>   the impression -- although i might be wrong of course -- that there is 
>   such a consensus as to what the greatest opera is, 

Yes, you are in fact wrong about that.  There is no such consensus.  You
will hear zillions of nominees for "the greatest opera" (Otello,
Falstaff, Tristan, Marriage of Figaro, you name it) as well as plenty of
knowledgeable people who'd say the notion is meaningless.

>  namely that it is
>   mozart's "don giovanni", and i do confess that among all the operas
>   *that i know* it is my favorite)

It's a great opera, but would never come to mind for me were I pushed to
the wall and forced to name The Greatest.  I wouldn't be alone in that
respect either.

>2. as we're on the topic of opera, how many think mirella freni's performance
>   as zerlina on colin davis's "don giovanni" is subpar? 

I've always felt that at the period she recorded Susanna and Zerlina for
Davis, she'd heard about singers (mostly Lieder singers, I think) who
use as one of their expressive devices microtonal shading of the pitch.
So she tried to do that on these recordings, and it just came out as
occasional flat singing.  It's a shame, because both portrayals are tops
otherwise.

Jon Alan Conrad
From: hellerS@moravian.edu (sjh)
Subject: Re: interesting phenomenon
Distribution: na
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 14:14:55 EST

In <1992Dec13.005909.10665@dgbt.doc.ca> ted@dgbt.doc.ca (Ted Grusec) writes:

>In article <724114284.8050.0@romulus.mercury.andrew.cmu.edu> Ken Zuroski <kz08+@andrew.cmu.edu> writes:
>>
>>Hi:
>>
>>I've been listening to quite a bit of modern classical music as of
>>late--the first time I ever really got into it in my life. One
>>interesting side effect of all this listening is that: more and more
>>when I'm just sitting doing some work and NOT listening to music, all of a
>>sudden I find the ambient sounds around me are somehow working together
>>and producing "music," which is almost as pleasurable an experience as
>>if I put some Bartok or Stravinsky on the CD player. I guess my brain
>>is becoming tuned to appreciate odd and--I don't have the correct
>>terminology to describe this--exotic tempos, syncopations etc., as well
>>as "atonal" (correct word?) pitches and so forth; a sudden
>>repetition of phrases is no longer a requirement for me to
>>consider a sound "music." For instance, just before I posted this--in
>>fact, what posted me to prompt--was that I was listening to a
>>combination of the whir of my computer's hard drive, which seemed to be
>>punctuated by the sounds of someone shoveling snow from outside my
>>house, with the sounds of water dripping in the bathroom also thrown in
>>there as another "voice."
>>
>>
>>Well, kind of an odd point and perhaps it should better be directed at 
>>sci.psychology, but I was interested if others experienced this when they
>>first began listening to modern music. 


>What you are reporting is a common experience for a sensitive, musical
>mind.>

And consider yourself FORTUNATE! Now, you may hear "music" wherever you may
be. Go out in the woods, as Messiaen did so often, and _listen_ to the
music of nature. This does not mean that all sounds equate to music, but it
DOES mean there's more music in this world than meets most ears!
From: chrisi@lloyd.Camex.COM (Chris Ischay)
Subject: Valkyrie recordings
Organization: Camex Inc., Boston MA
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 16:18:34 EST

In article <1992Dec16.185529.15353@wam.umd.edu> ext@wam.umd.edu (Eugene Zhu
Xia) writes:

>P.S. I have the Leinsdoff's recording of Walkure.  So far, the opinions,
>I have heard, about this recording is mixed.  I like to hear from the 
>experts in the net, so I can decide if I should get the Solti's.  

I'm no expert of course, but you don't need an expert to tell you that you
should undoubtedly get the Solti recording.  That is, if you're interested
in the Ring.  I mean, c'mon.

I've finally found a way into the Ring, which is taking small chunks at a
time and living with them in various versions over a period of time.  So
I've been listening to Act I of Die Walkure incessantly (well, partly
cessantly, but a lot).  I love Jon Vickers Siegmund, which I find more
expressive than James King's and even (dare I say it?) Lauritz Melchior's.
I'd like to put Vickers' brain in Melchior's body, because sometimes I just
don't find him very artistic, though he's so incredibly capable.  I don't
know what the consensus was on Gary Lakes in the Met production, but I
wasn't unbearably moved.

I am unbearably moved, however, by Regine Crespin, whose Sieglinde is to my
ears wonderfully womanly, if I can use the term without needing to duck the
PC police.  Leinsdorf's Sieglinde I thought was kind of low octane.  I also
have a Leinsdorf live recording which captures Astrid Varnay's emergency
stage debut as Sieglinde, stepping in for an indisposed Lotte Lehmann.
Both of those artists are superb.  I'm sure Solti would have preferred
Lehmann over Crespin, but I think Crespin's characterization is wonderful.

Emmanuel List is my favorite Hunding.  In fact, I think Hunding is turning
out to be my favorite character.  Uh oh.  Does that mean something?

The rest of the cast of the Solti is impeccable, and then there's the SOUND
of it all.  If you are listening to this on a stereo and you're not giving
yourself the option of the Solti recording, you're just plain missing
something.

Chris Ischay
chrisi@camex.com
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: smitra@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Sami Mitra)
Subject: Re: Valkyrie recordings
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 16:09:45 GMT

Here is a copy of a mail I sent to Chris, in reply to a
discussion regarding the singing of Melchior and 
Vickers.



Hi,
	The recording with Walter is really quite amazing, isn't it? And
not just because of the most effective principals of that time, or the 
superb conducting. In fact, everything falls into place. The production
values, and such, too make it possibly the best engineered recording 
till that time. One simply can't believe that this recording was made
in the early 1930's.
	A related recording of the 2nd act of the Walkure has also
been rereleased. It is not as seamless as the one above. The different
scenes have been conducted by two different conductors. Walter conducts
the scene with Wotan's monologue and one other; I forget the other 
conductor's name. Melchior is Siegmund. I forget the other principals.
I made the local dealer play some of it for me, but that was too short.
I need some more reviews, and some more listening, before I decide the 
relative merits of this outing .
	Incidentally, like I mentioned in my posting, a fascinating 
comparision of Melchior and Vickers can be done through their complete
Tristan recordings. Vickers' in the one we've talked about, Melchior's
in the recent EMI release of the 1936-37 Covent Garden performances.
Melchior is somewhat surprising, especially in the last act, and
sings in softer voice than you would expect. This is fascinatingly
in character, as Tristan is a dying man. This goes against the common
wisdom about Melchior having more voice than brains.
	Vickers, on the other hand, goes intentionally over the top.
That is perfectly in character too, as Tristan is, after all, delirious.
This results in the display of the most amazing vocal range, with
spine tingling pianissimos and awesome volume (This is a studio 
recording). And Vickers had his weird accent too, like "ich" =>
"eech"; all the more fun! One feels almost physically drained, in
the most positive manner, by the time Isolde's ship arrives!
	Happy holidays.
	
					Sami Mitra
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical