From: crb7q@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Cameron Randale Bass)
Subject: Re: CONSCIOUSNESS AND SCIENCE DISCUSSION GROUP
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 15:07:56 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.022852.7452@panix.com> davidc@panix.com (David C. Chorlian) writes:
>In <1992Aug11.143846.24840@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU> crb7q@kelvin.seas.Virginia.EDU (Cameron Randale Bass) writes:
>
>>In article <1992Aug11.025306.26510@panix.com> davidc@panix.com (David C. Chorlian) writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>In sci.math you write:
>>>
>>>
>>>>     Compare the scientific breakthroughs in Victorian England where
>>>>     nothing much of note was happening socially.  Compare breakthroughs
>>>>     in the US between 1947 and 1960 when nothing much exciting
>>>>     was happening socially.
>>>
>>>In fact, Victorian England was the site of perhaps the biggest
>>>social change in human history--from an agrarian to an industrial
>>>society.  The fact that this occured without a great deal of
>>>overt violence does not mean that nothing was happening.  And it
>>>is not difficult to embed Darwin's course of development in
>>>the general context of social and cultural life.  And then
>>>what about Duhem's remarks about the difference between
>>>French and English physicists--could this be related to the
>>>different social contexts from which they came?
>
>>     Certainly there are differences in great agglomerations of 
>>     people.  I believe below I stated 'other than the obvious
>>     effects societies have on their pursuits'.
>
>>     However, I would claim that society remained much the
>>     same for a very large timespan in Victorian England.  If
>>     insist otherwise, then you would have to insist that there
>>     is *always* something happening of note (the cold war was going 
>I make a specific claim, and I certainly DO NOT have to claim
>that something is always happening.
>Briefly, 19th Century Britain saw an enormous population increase
>massive urbanization, the formation of new and distinctive social
>classes, and the beginnings of mass political participation.
>Subsequent changes have been less dramatic.

     Then briefly tell me how this is reflected in, say, the development
     of Maxwell's equations in a way that it was not reflected in,
     say, the development of Weber's equations or Gauss's law.

     Be brief.

>>>>      Claiming great concurrent undercurrents of history between 
>>>>      social history and scientific history (other than the obvious
>>>>      effects societies have on their pursuits) is a bit far-fetched.
>>>>      It strikes me as a bit Marxist, and we all know how successful 
>>>>      this has been at describing/predicting economic systems.
>>>
>>>Some parts of Marx's work is quite useful in illuminating the
>>>capitalist process of production, even prescient for the time
>>>when it was written.  It's stupid to take it dogmatically, and
>>>equally stupid to think it can only be taken dogmatically.
>
>>     This certainly was not dogmatic.  It was simply the recognition
>>     that the 'great currents' idea seems to be held in common by
>>     both Marx and the previous poster.  I believe that the 'great
>The implication of your earlier remark is that you see Marx 
>through the eyes of his most dogmatic proponents, which makes
>him appear stupid.  I chided you for this.  I didn't say that
>you were dogmatic.  

     No, your assumption and knee-jerk reaction to the word 'Marxist'
     is what did this.  I question the 'inevitable progression' of 
     economic systems that was the basis of Marx's work and coloured
     everything he did.

>>     Economics (though there are always holdouts).  As far as the usefulness
>>     of other parts of Marx's work, I suppose that is always open 
>>     to debate, though probably not appropriate here.
>
>>     One final comment:  humans are very good at finding patterns,
>>     even when they do not exist. 
>
>The patterns exist, the question is of their significance.

     Insofar as they are created, they exist.

                               dale bass
-- 
C. R. Bass                                           crb7q@virginia.edu
Department of Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering
University of Virginia
Charlottesville, Virginia                            (804) 924-7926
Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian