HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: lewis@aera8700.mitre.org (Keith Lewis)
Subject: Re: making a radar decoy
Organization: The MITRE Corporation
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 20:07:48 GMT
Full-Name: News Service


From lewis@aera8700.mitre.org (Keith Lewis)

In article <Bsvn4L.Dyn@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM>, quest!curt (Curtis Gibson) writes:
>Would anyone care to comment on what will "fool" a radar?  Will
>papermache covered with aluminum foil pass as a real truck or plane?
>If not, what kind of reflective surface would be needed? ( I am
>assuming the size and shape of the decoy are exactly the same 
>as the real thing.)  Thanks.

Yes, that would certainly work.  

One radar countermeasure in use today is chaff.  That is, a small explosive
charge surrounded by strips of aluminum foil.  When the device is detonated,
it makes a cloud of Reynolds Wrap, which makes a big blotch on enemy radar.
If it works correctly, the big blotch obscures the little blip (your ship,
plane, or truck).

Keith Lewis             klewis@mitre.org          "Mr. Cheap"
I don't dance to music; music dances to me.  Email me for my PGP key.
The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: greg@pomona.claremont.edu (Tigger)
Subject: Re: why velcrow insignia
Organization: Pomona College
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 20:37:26 GMT


From greg@pomona.claremont.edu (Tigger)


From greg@pomona.claremont.edu (Tigger)

A good friend of mine who happens to be a newly commissioned AF officer
once told me that insignia were attacted with velcro rather than thread
or glue so that it was easy to "sanitize" in the event that one went
down behind enemy lines.

Greg Orman
"Oops." - Lothos

Newsgroups: sci.military
From:     Will Martin <wmartin@STL-06SIMA.ARMY.MIL>
Subject:  Military bases in Greenland?
Organization: NCR Corporation - Law Department
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 20:07:54 GMT


From     Will Martin <wmartin@STL-06SIMA.ARMY.MIL>

Are there still operational US (or other) military bases in Greenland?
I recall seeing an item recently (maybe on this list?) about the closing
of one Greenland base, but I believe it implied there were still others
(or at least one other) in operation.

I find it interesting how Greenland is completely ignored these days.
One hears a lot about possible explotation of mineral and other 
resources in Antarctica, but, even though Greenalnd seems superficially
similar in weather conditions and certainly is closer, one never hears 
any comments about such activities there. Aside from the attempted
retrieval of those crash-landed WWII aircraft, which turned out to
be crushed under ice and not worth the effort, I don't think the
territory has been mentioned in the press for decades...

Will

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: eriks@lin.foa.se (Erik Svensson FOA2)
Subject: Re: Advanced JAS 39 Gripen
Keywords: aircraft JAS 39 Gripen
Organization: FOA, Linkoping, Sweden
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 18:44:54 GMT


From eriks@lin.foa.se (Erik Svensson FOA2)

d89-den@ludd.luth.se (David Eliasson) writes:


>From d89-den@ludd.luth.se (David Eliasson)


>From d89-den@ludd.luth.se (David Eliasson)

>In Sweden there have been some rumors going about a hotter version off the JAS
>39 Gripen with a even more powerful version of the F 404 engine. What i have
>heard it should already be flying. If there is somebody who nows something
>about this can be nice two give me a answer.
>If somebody nows something about what Radar missile it looks like they should 
>buy too JAS 39 Gripen can also give an answer. Also in this qustion i have 
>heard some rumors about the Swedish airforce should buy some French missile?

It would surprise me greatlyu if a Gripen with a new engine was flying. It's a
bit of work to install a new engine.
For missiles, the choices are: 
	* AMRAAM
	* MICA
	* Active Sky Flash

Active Sky FLash is the least possible choice I feel. It's still only on paper
while the two others already has been test fired (and AMRAAM's in production).
Between Mica and AMRAAM, it's tougher. It probably depends on the level of 
return business (can't remember the correct term right now.).

--
Erik Svensson			Research Officer
Guided Weapons Division		National Defense Research Establishment (FOA)
Stockholm			Sweden

net.address: 	eriks@fenix.lin.foa.se

"I've got LOT's of common sense. I just choose to ignore it." -- Calvin

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib)
Subject: Re: Scots Greys at Waterloo
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 20:12:06 GMT


From ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib)

In article <BsKCBF.DIs@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM> M.J.Rooth@lut.ac.uk (Mike Rooth) writes:

>Now dismounting and spiking guns.I think you will find that no
>European cavalry dismounted and fought on foot.I have an idea this
>was an American invention,but no doubt I can be proven wrong:-)
>To spike a cannon you have to hammer a spike(or nail) into the
>touch hole,and then file it off flush with the barrel. If you dont
>file it off,the first farrier to come along can remove the spike.

Just wondering.

What would prevent someone from just driving the spike in all the 
way until it dropped down into the barrel? My guess is that if you 
drive the spike in hard enough a protusion or head is better than
nothing at all...





-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Iskandar Taib                          | The only thing worse than Peach ala
Internet: NTAIB@SILVER.UCS.INDIANA.EDU |    Frog is Frog ala Peach
Bitnet:   NTAIB@IUBACS                 !
From: steve@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM (Steve Bridges)
Newsgroups: sci.military
Subject: Lack of postings
Date: 19 Aug 92 15:39:31 GMT
Organization: NCR Corporation, Corporate Law Department


From steve@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM (Steve Bridges)


I have not received any postings for sci.military since Monday, August 17.
If you have sent postings, but they have bounced via e-mail, please re-send
them to the following address:

	steve.bridges@daytonoh.ncr.com

		-  or --

	sci.military@daytonoh.ncr.com

Other alternate addresses are:

	military@lawday.daytonoh.ncr.com 


		- or --

	steve@lawday.daytonoh.ncr.com

-- 
Steve Bridges, Programmer/Analyst| NCR - Law Department, WHQ-5
steve@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM ___| Phone:(513)-445-4486 622-4486 (VOICEplus)
Reserve sci.military moderator| "The airplane does not recognize attitude,
providing a maneuver is conducted at one G" -- A.M. "Tex" Johnston
Newsgroups: sci.military
From: ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib)
Subject: Re: depleted uranium
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 20:25:56 GMT


From ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib)




From ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib)

In article <1992Jul30.123936.16542@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM> rholmes@dhvx20.csudh.edu writes:

>Militaries make sabots out of depleted Uranium because it is a very dense 
>substance i.e. it weighs a lot for a given volume. A sabot is the part
>of a tank round that accutually penetrates the enemy tank. Most tank rounds
>are composed of a shell and the sabot. The two seperate after firing 
>thereby giving the sabot a higher velocity.

Nope... the sabot is the part discarded. Thats why the rounds are called
APDS - Armor Piercing Discarding Sabot. "Sabot" is French for "shoe" -
supposedly "saboteurs" got their name from carrying instructions around
in their shoes. 

The idea is to use a large-caliber waepon to launch a small caliber, high
sectional density projectile at extremely high speeds. Using a small cali-
ber weapon would be impractical due to the high pressures, slow-burning 
powders and/or extremely long barrels that would be needed to achieve simi-
lar velocities. Using a larger bore puts more force behind the projectile 
at the same chamber pressures (since force = pressure x area) and allows 
the use of faster powders.

One can buy discarding sabot ammo at the local gunstore. Ask for the Re-
mington .30-06 shells loaded with the 55 grain .224 bullets. I think these 
exit the barrel at close to 5000 fps. Accuracy is another thing altogether
though...and I think they'd do better to use a heavier .224 bullet like the 
70 grain..

I think sabots for loading .357 bullets in a .44 Magnum case are also 
available. 

>There is little radiation left in depleted uranium rounds and targets can
>be scrapped as soon as is handy.

Better wear a filter mask though. Ingesting uranium oxide powder may 
not be healthy. 





-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Iskandar Taib                          | The only thing worse than Peach ala
Internet: NTAIB@SILVER.UCS.INDIANA.EDU |    Frog is Frog ala Peach
Bitnet:   NTAIB@IUBACS                 !

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: cmr@cvedc.prime.com (Chesley Reyburn)
Subject: Re: Use of snipers
Organization: Computervision R&D, Beaverton OR
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 13:18:44 GMT


From cmr@cvedc.prime.com (Chesley Reyburn)

Tony.Buckland@mtsg.ubc.ca writes:

> Yugoslavia: is this the first time that sniping has formed such an
> important part of ongoing assaults and sieges?  I think of sniping
> as an auxiliary method, employing scarce experts, for keeping the

I think that you are taking too narrow a definition of sniping.
Webster's New Riverside Dictionary defines snipe as a verb meaning
to shoot at individuals in the open from a hidden position.  I don't
think that precision is as important as the fact of the fire itself.

When I think about the situation in Yugoslavia, sniping seems to be a
method of projecting force in an urban setting with a minimum of personnel.

Chesley Reyburn (cmr@cvedc.prime.com)

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: dgfritz@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Doug Fritz)
Subject: How to spike a gun?
Organization: Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 20:30:36 GMT


From dgfritz@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Doug Fritz)




From dgfritz@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Doug Fritz)

Spiking a gun such as a cannon or artillery piece disables the
gun, but how does a foot soldier spike a gun?

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: ulowell!usl.edu!jab0684@samsung.com (Boudreaux Jean A)
Subject: Vietnam era ammo sabotage
Organization: Univ. of Southwestern Louisiana
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 20:39:17 GMT


From ulowell!usl.edu!jab0684@samsung.com (Boudreaux Jean A)


From ulowell!usl.edu!jab0684@samsung.com (Boudreaux Jean A)

I friend of mine tells me that back in Vietnam, Americans would sometine
sabotage 7.62x39 mm ammunition.  The method was to take a shell,
pull the bullet, and replace the powder with a bit of c-4.  The 
american would then load the 'doctored' shell in a full ammo clip
and leave it for some unsuspecting charlies to find.  Hopefully
the primer would detonate the c-4 and neutralize charlie.
Can anyone confirm or add detail to this method of sabotage.
Also, please add any other interesting American booby traps, as I hear
much of VC ingenuity, but little in terms of US sabotage etc.

Thanks

jab0684@usl.edu


Newsgroups: sci.military
From: c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen)
Subject: Re: How to spike a gun?
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 20:34:41 GMT


From c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen)


From c34657b@saha.hut.fi (Tuomas Viljanen)

In article <BsKCnp.E2s@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM> dgfritz@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Doug Fritz) writes:
>
>From dgfritz@rodan.acs.syr.edu (Doug Fritz)
>
>Spiking a gun such as a cannon or artillery piece disables the
>gun, but how does a foot soldier spike a gun?
>

For example by filling the barrel with earth. "Spiking" originally meant
striking a wooden spike into the fuse hole of a bombard in order to sabotage
it and thus prevent the enemy of using the piece if captured.



  ++ Tuomas Viljanen                     ++ For a battle like Crecy, you do  ++
  ++ Lahderanta 20 A 19                  ++ not need a military genius like  ++
  ++ SF-02720 Espoo 72 FINLAND           ++ Edward III. All you need is an   ++
  ++ 358-0-592175 or c34657b@saha.hut.fi ++ idiot like the Duke of Alencon.  ++

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib)
Subject: Re: Tracers
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 20:21:59 GMT


From ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib)




From ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Iskandar Taib)

In article <1992Jul30.124540.17499@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM> rlbell@babbage.waterloo.edu (Richard Bell) writes:

>U238 has an extremely long half-life, and is an alpha emitter; therefore, it
>is not very radioactive, and alpha particles cannot penetrate their way out
>of a paper bag, so it is hardly dangerous.  I believe (but do not know for
>sure) that U238 and unenriched natural uranium (99.28% U238, 0.72% U235) are
>only dangerous when ingested.  


Ingestion may very well be a problem on test ranges; or during
battlefield cleanup/salvage, as the uranium in the shells would
likely have turned to an oxide powder. Several pounds of uranium
oxide would likely be present in a target hit by one of these. 





-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Iskandar Taib                          | The only thing worse than Peach ala
Internet: NTAIB@SILVER.UCS.INDIANA.EDU |    Frog is Frog ala Peach
Bitnet:   NTAIB@IUBACS                 !

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: military@att.att.com (Bill Thacker)
Subject: 50 Years Ago: Wednesday, 12 August, 1942
Followup-To: soc.history
Organization: NCR Corporation - Law Department
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 13:52:55 GMT


From military@att.att.com (Bill Thacker)

Wednesday, 12 August, 1942

Axis attacks against the Pedestal convoy continue.  Three merchant ships, a
destroyer, and a cruiser are sunk; the carrier Illustrious, two cruisers,
and the tanker Ohio are damaged.  The bulk of the escorting force retires
to Gibraltar.

The First Moscow conference begins.  Stalin, Churchill, and representatives
from the United States and Free France attend.  The conference topic is the
opening of a second front in Europe.  Churchill tells Stalin that this is
impossible until 1943, and informs him of Operation Torch.

Henderson Field on Guadalcanal becomes operational, and aircraft begin
landing with supplies for the Marines.

The Soviet attack near Rzhev peaks, but fails to achieve any major
success.

German troops reach Slavyansk in the Kuban, near the Sea of Azov.

Reporter: patter@dasher.cc.bellcore.com (George Patterson)
Source - "Ghosts" calendar for 1992.

--	--	--	--	--	--	--	--	--
Bill Thacker			            military@att.att.com
Send submissions for "50 Years Ago" to military-request@att.att.com

"Milk from Canada is now shipped to Great Britain in empty shell cases...
A large blue "M" on the box indicates that the box contains shells loaded
with milk." - New York Times, "Notes on Science"
Newsgroups: sci.military
From:     "Edward J. Rudnicki" (FSAC-SID) <erudnick@pica.army.mil>
Subject:  Re: Phalanx Ammo
Organization: NCR Corporation - Law Department
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 20:46:15 GMT


From     "Edward J. Rudnicki" (FSAC-SID) <erudnick@pica.army.mil>




From     "Edward J. Rudnicki" (FSAC-SID) <erudnick@pica.army.mil>



Bill Blackwell writes:
#another round availible, the choice is generally DU.  (Any 'Hog drivers out the
#care to settle the dispute?)  This is also true for the A-1W, AH-64, and many o
#of the *light* anti-armor weapons systems.  Tanks, in general, AREN'T big du use
#APDS rounds do have a tungsten (osmium ?) core.  I believe this is do more to t


The A-10's GAU-8 has 3 natures of ammunition available - API (full bore DU),
HEI, and TP. Don't know if the service rounds trace.

The 20mm M197 in the AH-1s has a full bore AP round, but it's hardened steel.
The cartridge is probably of too low a velocity to make use of the 
improved penetration of tungsten or DU.

The 30mm M230 on the AH-64 has no AP cartridge. Its case is basically the
Aden/DEFA low pressure round. The service cartridge is HEDP - HEAT with
fragmentation.

Tanks in US service are big users of DU; all current service cartridges use
DU penetrators.

APDS penetrators can be made of the same materials as long rods - hardened
steel, tungsten, or DU. You won't see any DU APDS because long rods came
into favor before DU did, whereas APDS has been around since WW2, when
tungsten was already in use. Some sources claim that the Germans used
natural U penetrators in some of their AP ammo.


#Side note: HE and incendiary are two different explosives.  Surface burning inc
#rounds have little effect at air combat speeds.

The incendiary composition is not always an explosive. The effects can be
combined. Some vendors offer SAPHEI (semi armor piercing HE incendiary)
with pyrotechnic (rather than fuzed) initiation of the HE - cheap multipurpose
ammunition.


All from open sources as usual of course.

Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
"It demoralized them. Not to mention killed them."
     --- 3rd AD officer describing effects of DPICM in ODS

Newsgroups: sci.military
From: henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)
Subject: Re: Phalanx Ammo [was Re: Tracers]
Organization: U of Toronto Zoology
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 20:23:35 GMT


From henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)




From henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer)

>From Michael Chui <mchui@tope.cs.indiana.edu>
>	Can anyone confirm a US decision to switch to tungsten from
>depleted Uranium?  Reason cited: environmental effects - aka health
>risks from machining the rounds.

Uranium is *chemically* poisonous enough that at least some types of
ammunition are indeed going to be switched from DU to tungsten.  Not
that tungsten is exactly easy to work with either...

The Japanese (among others?) have been using tungsten for such purposes
for quite a while.  In Japan's case, it's because the word "uranium"
is politically sensitive.  If I recall correctly, Japan's constitution
forbids its military to possess "nuclear materials", and they didn't
want a protracted debate about whether DU qualified.

To say it one more time:  the problem is *not* that DU is radioactive.
It is, but too faintly to be a major problem.
-- 
There is nothing wrong with making      | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology
mistakes, but... make *new* ones. -D.Sim|  henry@zoo.toronto.edu  utzoo!henry
From: M.J.Rooth@lut.ac.uk (Mike Rooth)
Subject: Scots Greys at Waterloo
Organization: Loughborough University, UK.
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 20:28:51 GMT


From M.J.Rooth@lut.ac.uk (Mike Rooth)




From M.J.Rooth@lut.ac.uk (Mike Rooth)

I would like to take *friendly* issue with Mike Scmitt over
his posting about the Scots Greys.In this,Mike,you say that
this regiment was the Royal North British Dragoons.Have you
a reference for this?I always understood that they were Scots
(because Scottish)and Greys(because their horses were grey).
Scots are NOT north british.They were also not poorly mounted,
indeed the saying about them is "the best equipped and the worst
led"In that I certainly agree,indeed this discipline problem
beset all British cavalry at that time.Individually they were
incredibly brave,but as you say cavalry are a fat lot of use as
individuals.The French,it is said were better,but the best were
German,Particularly the King's German Legion,The closest thing
we have ever had to a Foreign Legion(to be based no closer to
the mainland than the Isle of Wight).
The attitude of English cavalrymen is perhaps best summed up by
a saying said to come from that time that "the cavalry are present
to lend tone to what would otherwise be merely a vulgar brawl"
Incidentally,I doubt that the officers were related to the King..
after all he WAS German...
Now dismounting and spiking guns.I think you will find that no
European cavalry dismounted and fought on foot.I have an idea this
was an American invention,but no doubt I can be proven wrong:-)
To spike a cannon you have to hammer a spike(or nail) into the
touch hole,and then file it off flush with the barrel. If you dont
file it off,the first farrier to come along can remove the spike.
I dont think that course of action was *really* available to a
guy trying to hold a maddened warhorse in the other hand,surrounded
by hostiles and not issued with the necessary tools:-)
Please note this is NOT a flame,I am just pleasantly warm,But while
I try to be realistic about my country's history,I dont like to see
it sold short.Incidentally,if you havent alredy read them,I can
recommend Bernard Cornwell's books in the "Sharpe" series,not only
very well researched,but also very entertaining stories.
Mike Rooth
From: manuelp@ecf.toronto.edu (MANUELPILLAI Gerald Nishanthan)
Newsgroups: sci.military
Subject: Re: depleted uranium
Date: 19 Aug 92 13:35:59 GMT
Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility


From manuelp@ecf.toronto.edu (MANUELPILLAI Gerald Nishanthan)

In article <Bsw1ME.2Iq@lawday.DaytonOH.NCR.COM> "Edward J. Rudnicki" (FSAC-SID) <erudnick@pica.army.mil> writes:
>
>From     "Edward J. Rudnicki" (FSAC-SID) <erudnick@pica.army.mil>
>
>
>Bill Blackwell writes:
>#4. The age old adage, "Never use the weapons of a defeated enemy" ;-)
>
>So why is it that the Israelis kept large numbers of captured T-55s and
>T-62s in service, even going so far as to re-engine and re-gun the 
>former? Huh?
>
>Just a question :) :) :)
>

Also,  the French armed forces after WWII made extensive use of the 
ample supplies of German weapons - Fw190's, Panther tanks to name a
couple.

Not to mention the fact that the 'poor' Warsaw Pact countries, and 
Yugoslavia (these names ring a bell? :) ) had large quantities of
ex-Wehrmacht inventories on their reserve lists (I believe there
are quite a few 88's being used in the Balkans right now!)

So, I guess the adage has to be amended to include the following
exceptions 
1)  unless they're better than yours
2)  unless you don't have money to buy your own
3)  unless it's cheaper to use them, than get rid of them

:) :) :)

Gerald
Newsgroups: sci.military
From: umteghts@ccu.umanitoba.ca (david teghtsoonian)
Subject: Re: Why execute spies?
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 20:26:50 GMT


From umteghts@ccu.umanitoba.ca (david teghtsoonian)




From umteghts@ccu.umanitoba.ca (david teghtsoonian)


  Capra's "Why We Fight" series has been shown several times on the
A & E network's "Our Century" program. They rebroadcast it about once
a year. Frankly, I have never been able to sit through the whole program.
Propaganda films in general are slickly produced, one-sided B.S., whether
or not they are produced by Hollywood, the former USSR or Nazi Germany for
that matter. Still, for students of the genre, I suppose "Why We Fight" is
a classic example of the propagandist's art(?).