HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jeff@aiai.ed.ac.uk (Jeff Dalton)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: The Literary Canon
Date: 12 Aug 92 16:26:15 GMT
Organization: AIAI, University of Edinburgh, Scotland

In article <5494@transfer.stratus.com> jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com writes:
>In article <7161@skye.ed.ac.uk> jeff@aiai.ed.ac.uk (Jeff Dalton)  
>> >Turn your disingenuous question around:  What would you suggest as  
>> >an alternative method of guiding readers to a good selection of  
>> >classics?
>> 
>> Why should they need guidance?  Do they need guidance for non-classics
>> too?

Actually, I think it's a bit strange ot say the canon provides a
guide to the classics.  Just how many non-canonical classics are
there?

Anyway...

>Because there are tens of thousands of books out there, far more
>than what can be read in a lifetime.  People need guidance 
>in part to help them figure out which ones are worth trying.

Well, there's guidance and guidance.  It's not like the only
alternatives are a canon and no guidance whatsoever, every
reader completely on their own.

Besides there are so many books worth reading that it doesn't
make sense to spend too much time reading the "canonical" ones.

>Furthermore, a good English department can help provide a
>road map.  Many good books rely on some background knowledge
>on the reader's part, and are better if the reader has this
>background.  A good English department can, for example, tell
>the sudent that they might better understand parts of Moby 
>Dick if they read King Lear first, or that before reading
>Ulysses it might be a good idea to read Homer, Dante, and
>Shakespeare (particularly Hamlet).  Both novels, picked up
>"cold," can be read and appreicated to some degree without this
>backround, but are richer if you HAVE the background.

Sure, but that doesn't require a canon.  What background you
need depends on what you want to read.  The shared background
that everyone ought to have might be fairly small.

>Finally, a good English department provides a forum for 
>discussion.

What does this have to do with the canon?

-- jd
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: Taranto-Zeleny on Clayton Cramer
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
	<JMC.92Aug13011422@SAIL.Stanford.EDU>
	<BHANAFEE.92Aug13133744@deimos.ads.com>
Date: 13 Aug 92 17:39:58

Summer Sanders seems right to me, but the newspaper is gone from the
lounge.
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
From: cjh@tinton.ccur.com (Christopher J. Henrich)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: The Literary Canon
Date: 14 Aug 92 16:05:22 GMT
Organization: Concurrent Computer Corp., Tinton Falls, NJ

In article <1992Aug12.205130.15286@cbnewsj.cb.att.com> ecl@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper) writes:
>In article <5522@transfer.stratus.com> jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com writes:
>> I've read a number of authors on my own--Dostoyevsky and Faulkner
>> both come to mind--that I really wish I'd read as part of a college
>> course just so I could talk to another group of people about the
>> great book(s) I'd just read.
>
>I thought that was why rec.arts.books was invented.  Think of it as a
>college course with 75,000 students.
>
More like a seminar - the roles of teacher and learner are fluid.

But even in a seminar, you can tell at a glance who is likely to be
"in charge."  On the Net, *Nobody* is in charge. 

Regards,
Chris Henrich
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Subject: Re: I need a word
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 02:14:37 GMT

JAREA@UKCC.UKY.EDU writes:

	I always thought Synecdoche was a city in New York State
 
That may be, but there are two Notasynecdoches, one in East Texas, and 
the other in Louisiana. They are both pronounced different and funny.

						Fido
Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:14948 rec.humor:26708 alt.folklore.urban:21873 rec.arts.sf.misc:2652
From: csuah@warwick.ac.uk (~WISP at CU~)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,rec.humor,alt.folklore.urban,rec.arts.sf.misc
Subject: Re: Agnostics and Athiests
Date: 21 Aug 92 17:52:31 GMT
Organization: Computing Services, Warwick University, UK

In article <1992Aug21.094620.14976@husc3.harvard.edu> joltes@husc10.harvard.edu (Richard Joltes) writes:
>st890270@pip.cc.brandeis.edu writes:
>>
>>two things. the heaven & hell concept is a new-fangled Christian idea, and we
>>Jews still consider it a little cockeyed ]:{)
>
>Dr. D.T. Suzuki, a noted Zen philosopher and well-known speaker, once opened
>a lecture with a GREAT line about Christianity.  Standing in the hall, rubbing
>his hands on his sides he said "God against man.  Man against God.  Man against
>nature.  Nature against man.  God against nature.  Nature against God.  Very
>funny religion!"
>
>>as to why create people: nobody ever claimed god is immune to boredom.
>>(or maybe, he has his reasons, but they are beyond our imagining. After all,
>>can you actually imagine omnipotence?)
>
>I've been a systems manager.  Nuff said? (bwaaahhaahahaha!)
>

Come on, he said *omnipotence*, not impotence...

The Wisp. [jokes for the humor impaired...]
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
     Chris Williams <csuah@uk.ac.warwick.csv> aka <csuah@csv.warwick.ac.uk>
"Tony Greig in the slips, legs apart, waiting for a tickle"
                                      Brian Johnson (thanks to A. Simha 8^>)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: jwh3g@amazon.evsc.Virginia.EDU (Julia Hayden)
Subject: Re: The Literary Canon & (French) Women
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 16:54:47 GMT

 In addition to Colette and Sand, there is also Germaine De Stael (who I 
consider to be a French writer, despite her Swiss nationality).


-- 
 Julia Hayden <> jwh3g@Virginia.edu <> jhayden@smith.smith.edu <> merf.  
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,rec.humor,talk.religion.misc,sci.skeptic
From: lfoard@Turing.ORG (Lawrence C. Foard)
Subject: Re: Agnostics and Athiests
Organization: The Turing Project, Charlottesville Virginia.
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 07:27:53 GMT

In article <sbuckley.714031443@sfu.ca> sbuckley@fraser.sfu.ca (Stephen Buckley) writes:
>>Oh really?  So creating something automatically gives one the right to
>>do anything at all with the created!  Really, if we managed to generate
>>life in the lab, would you then conclude we could do anything we wanrted
>>with it?  Or would you say that we should treat it like any other living
>>thing?
>
>  no that's not what i said.  god is justified in doing whatever he wants
>with his creation.  if i write a poem, i can burn it, but if i could create
>life, i could do whatever i want with it.  

If you created an intellegent life form why do you think it has any
fewer rights than other intellegent life? It won't be that long until
we can create intellegence, that doesn't mean we have the right to
enslave it.

>but 2 things.  one is i don't
>believe humans create life.  i believe god does.  human beings can have
>sex but god creates the life.  :)  two is if you can prove to me that i
>can create life, which entails proving god is not creating life [but
>both of those are empirically unverifiable], then i would discuss your
>hypothetical as reality--until then tho, it's just hypothetical. 

Give it another 20 years or so.

-- 
>>Unix/C Contract worker available 5 years C/unix work experience<<  ______
Available for Telecommuting/Travel and contracts on the T Line       \    /
in the Boston MA area. Send me e-mail for a copy of my Resume.        \  /
       -- VWIS 508-793-9568 (2400 baud), Linux support BBS.--          \/
From: cam@castle.ed.ac.uk (Chris Malcolm)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Inconsistent Details -- Trivia
Date: 20 Aug 92 03:45:22 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University

In article <1992Aug18.160030.1467@nas.nasa.gov> wismith@amelia.nas.nasa.gov (William R. Smith) writes:

>In Sue Grafton's "A Is For Alibi" Kinsey Millhome the female detective
>leaves her keys in her car to make a quick get-away if needed.  A few
>pages later she uses the keys to pry open a window in the basement.

And she isn't one of those careful people who always carry a duplicate
set?
-- 
Chris Malcolm    cam@uk.ac.ed.aifh          +44 (0)31 650 3085
Department of Artificial Intelligence,    Edinburgh University
5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK                DoD #205
From: ferjan@cwi.nl (F.J. de Vries)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: I need a word
Date: 12 Aug 92 15:08:35 GMT
Organization: CWI, Amsterdam

"Pars-pro-toto" is the latin mouth-full for a part designating a
whole...

Sayonara,  Fer-Jan.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: rauchway@leland.Stanford.EDU (Eric Andrew Rauchway)
Subject: Re: Unspoken Words
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 92 17:49:02 GMT

In article <1992Aug16.132645.25134@morrow.stanford.edu> francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir) writes:

>
>All that Maddox has done by his "snob & shit" remark
>is make it clear how little he understands the, to him, alien English
>culture. 

This remark made as Francis defends the English public school from the 
aspersions of the (presumably) insufficiently schooled Tom Maddox.

Perhaps Francis is correct in impugning the judgment of John LeCarre regarding
his public school, or the satire of Orwell concerning his less-than-great
public school.  However, I would direct all those interested in understanding
the influence of said public schools on English culture to Noel Annan's _Our
Age_, a charming, if rambling, cultural history of the generation that came
in with the twentieth century or so.  Annan blames the public school
for most of what was wrong with the generation; I won't try to summarize 
his argument here, but his reminiscences of the sporting lifestyle and its
effect on young British boys are of the highest caliber and incorporate the
history and biography of many of the prominent members of that generation.

Eric Rauchway                    /      My opinions are mine, and not those
rauchway@leland.stanford.edu     /      of the department or university.

Department of History                  Stanford University

*****Those who do not remember history are doomed to flunk my class.*****






Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: evanh@sco.COM (Evan Hunt)
Subject: Re: Asimov and the decay of SF
Organization: The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc.
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 21:13:59 GMT


Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian) writes:
>Ron Nadel objects to Ursula LeGuin's science fiction on the grounds that it's
>too expository, pedantic, etc. Chacun a son gout, but the lady knows exactly
                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Excuse me, but could someone explain the meaning of this phrase?

-- 
"I had generously shown on the stage my interior life as a raging beast, but
 my exterior life as a mediocre human being and dilettante of of normal int-
 elligence remained unchronicled...I *knew* that beneath my work's primeval,
 hysterical facade there was a calm little writer in an armchair just waiting
 to burst forth." -- Wally Shawn, on the writing of "My Dinner With Andre'"
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,rec.humor,talk.religion.misc,sci.skeptic
From: m23364@mwunix (James Meritt)
Subject: Re: God (was: Agnostics and Athiests
Organization: MITRE Corporation, McLean VA
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 19:06:15 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.170505.20237@cas.org> sdr57@cas.org () writes:
}In article <1992Aug12.153055.20120@linus.mitre.org> m23364@mwunix (James Meritt) writes:
}>}In article <1992Aug10.183411.13270@cas.org> sdr57@cas.org writes:
}>}>}>  [King James and NIV versions of same verse deleted]
}>}
}>}Given that the King James Version was transcribed in 1611, while
}>}my version (The New International) was transcribed in 1975... I
}>}don't suppose you'd wish to concede that there may have been some
}>}changes in English usage in the 364 years between versions?
}>}Obviously, there is nothing left but to check it out in the
}>}original.
}>
}>Given that there is a few thousand years since "the original",
}>perhaps the entire thing is OBE.
}>
}>Must be nice to be able to refer to something unavailable and think it
}>is authoratitave...
}				     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
}>
}From this statement, you seem to be saying that the King James version
}is *not* a translation of earlier documents from which the NIV was
}also prepared.
}
}Is it then your position that the NIV is a translation of the King James
}or do you maintain that the King James version simply sprang up with
}no precedents?

Neither, obviously.  Those "originals" that were suggested to going back
to are not available.  There are copies of copies of copies of translations
of claims of copies ....  and at no layer past the original transcript
could you not raise exactly the same arguments as you did for the KJV with the
same resolution.


This may shock you, but I HAVE studied the mess.
From: soley@trop32.enet.dec.com (Norm Soley)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: REQUEST: "KILL your TV" bumperstickers
Date: 18 Aug 92 15:38:53 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment of Canada

In article <1992Aug18.020816.1208@gtephx.UUCP> sullivana@gtephx.UUCP (Anne Sullivan) writes:
>Lori Cole writes:
>> Mark Taranto writes:
>> 
>> >   Is this his real name . . . Why do parents do this to their children?
>>     I've met a Candy Mann, a Stormy Webber, and a Candy Caine.  None were
>>     strippers.
>> 
>> Ah, but I went through school with April N. (no middle name, just an
>> initial) Paris.
>> 
>I graded the Calculus papers of one Rocky Mountain.  My younger sister
>was in school with his brothers--Cliff and Smokey.  

My wife works with a fellow named Robin Hood who named his daugther
Robin Hood. 

Takes all kinds

-- 
    Norman Soley, Specialist, Digital Integrations Services,  ITC District
    Digital Equipment of Canada                   soley@trooa.enet.dec.com
    Opinions expressed are mine alone  and do not reflect those of Digital 
    Equipment Corporation or my cat Marge.
From: sph0301@utsph.sph.uth.tmc.edu (Kate Wilson)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: REQUEST: "KILL your TV" bumperstickers
Date: 18 Aug 1992 20:21:29 GMT
Organization: Univ. of Texas School of Public Health

>>> Ah, but I went through school with April N. (no middle name, just an
>>> initial) Paris.

...and I went to school with Julius Caesar (Jr., yet!)

kate
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: author and theme of MacBird?
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
Date: 15 Aug 92 20:44:37

For an ongoing argument, I would like to know these.  MacBird
was a 1960s or early 70s play.
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: wojdylo@maths.uwa.oz.au (INFIDEL)
Subject: Re: Welcome back Clayton Cramer
Organization: University of Western Australia
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 10:19:16 GMT

Johnno McCarthy writes:

>I am happy to see that Clayton is again posting on r.a.b. after an
>absence of several days.  


Welcome back, Cuntin Comer!!

---
JW


					Round and round he goes
					Where he comes, nobody knows.
From: barclay@RAIL9000.gatech.edu (Barclay Blanchard)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: The Literary Canon
Date: 14 Aug 92 22:10:43 GMT
Organization: Georgia Tech Research Institute

In article <14287@mindlink.bc.ca> Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian) writes:
>I've been reading Terrance's comments with a mixture of fascination, enjoyment
>and despair. Like him, I grew up in a minority within a minority--the American
>Communist families who moved to Mexico in the early 50s to evade blacklisting

I imagine it took a lot of integrity for your father and grandfather not to
(officially at least) renounce their belief in Communism.
>
>I also worry about any attitude that says your race and sex are the most
>important aspects of your personality--the very things you can't control--and
>that your personal achievements are important only insofar as they make your
>racial or sexual colleagues Look Good.

I don't think that my gender is necessarily my most important characteristic,
but it does differentiate me from the power structure as I've experienced it.
And that leads me to want to establish my own networking groups and power
structures since I feel that the "system" rejects things that are fundamentally
important to me.


-- 
Barclay Elizabeth Blanchard    barclay@rail9000@gatech.edu
"I've been laughed at by some of the funniest people."
--Lissie, Alice Walker's _The Temple of My Familiar_
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,rec.humor,alt.folklore.urban,rec.arts.sf.misc,alt.religion.kibology
From: cochran@spam.rtp.dg.com (A. Jing Hippy)
Subject: Re: Agnostics and Athiests
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 92 19:32:54 GMT
Organization: A Suffusion of Yellow

In article <#=5mk3d.tmaddox@netcom.com>, tmaddox@netcom.com (Tom Maddox) writes:
|> 	What I admire most about this thread is its universality.  It manages
|> to be inappropriate to every newsgroup it appears in; it is likewise 
|> uniformly tedious.  
|> 
|> 	And the subject line is misspelled.  
|> 
|> 	My deepest admiration to the evil genius who concocted it.  Or, if
|> no evil genius is involved, then to the Dostoevskyeanly perfect idiot.

Sir, I will have you know that the person that concocted this is the
athiest person that has ever posted to this group.  MUCH more athy than
you or I are.

Reminds me of a caption I saw on the news recently.  Someone was being 
interviewed, and below them on the screen was the legend:

                        John Smith
                         Lobbiest

+--------------------------------------------------+
|Dave Cochran, Data General Corporation, RTP, NC   |
|cochran@dg-rtp.dg.com                             |
+--------------------------------------------------+
|The meaning of the complement form of a switch    |
|can be determined by complementing the meaning    |
|of the switch.                                    |
|                     --Ada Reference Manual       |
+--------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: spg@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Stephen P. Guthrie)
Subject: Re: MFK Fisher (Re: Bang, BANG, B-A-N-G!)
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1992 22:44:07 GMT

In article <1992Aug19.223034.16568@morrow.stanford.edu> francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir) writes:
>
>Forster's novels can be lined up by weight, with *The Longest
>Journey* at one end -- the heavyweight -- and *A Room With A View* at the 
>other. TLJ is recognized in England as the Masterpiece (but really quite 
>dreadfully boring), but ARWAV is the Jewel. HE falls flat somewhere in 
>between. 

Where do you rate 'Passage to India'?


Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:14514 talk.politics.misc:39228
From: bhanafee@deimos.ads.com (Brian Hanafee)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: Dismiss the Liberal! (was re: The nature of enlightenment)
Date: 13 Aug 92 01:43:30 GMT
	<1992Aug12.192312.14674@husc3.harvard.edu>
Organization: Advanced Decision Systems, Mountain View, CA 94043, +1 (415)
	960-7300


In article <1992Aug12.192312.14674@husc3.harvard.edu> zeleny@husc8.harvard.edu (Michael Zeleny) writes:
>Elsewhere (on rec.guns), in article <11701@optilink.UUCP> 
>cramer@optilink.com (Clayton Cramer) writes:
>
>CC:
>>[...] the government should fix the fundamental problem of savages
>>on the loose, rather than forcing decent people to engage in the
>>risky business of gunfighting [...]

It's nice to know that Mr. Cramer has moderated himself somewhat over
the years.  The primary reason I unsubscribed from ca.politics in
June, 1987 was irritation at the ongoing argument over gun control
between Mr. Cramer and all comers.  As I remember, Mr. Cramer was taking
a course in handling concealed weapons, and bemoaning the fact that it
was illegal for him to actually carry a concealed weapon in this state
without a letter of some sort from the local district attorney.

--
Brian Hanafee                         Advanced Decision Systems
bhanafee@ads.com                      1500 Plymouth Street
(415) 960-7300                        Mountain View, CA 94043-1230
From: le01167@portal.lasc.lockheed.com (Ron Nadel (x2025))
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Asimov and the decay of SF
Date: 12 Aug 92 14:49:38 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Lockheed Aeronautical Systems Co. - Rye Canyon
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <5504@transfer.stratus.com>, jmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com writes...
> 
>But much of the best SF does do well with characters.  Silverberg,
>Le Guin, Bishop, Kim Stanley Robinson, Dick, and so forth
>all have produced novels with very strong characters.  In some cases,
>SF novels are focused almost entirely on character: 
>Silverberg's Dying Inside and Le Guin's The Dispossessed come to
>mind.

You're really talking about two different things here: 1) doing well with 
characters, and 2) focusing in on characters.  Le Guin's Dipso - sorry - 
Dispossessed focuses in on characters, but I would not say does well with 
them.  Uh oh.... I hear Crawford Kilian breathing heavy...I better hurry 
this up and get out of here...

I know that many people at this party like Dispossessed for it's slant, but
that wasn't enough for me, so I didn't find it a good read.  It's reminds
me of the way Oscars are given to movies.  If the audience loves a character
in the movie story, or if the plot flatters their choice of belief, they 
think that means the movie was well done.

Ron
From: barger@aristotle.ils.nwu.edu (Jorn &)
Subject: Re: _Time's Arrow_, by Martin Amis
Organization: The Institute for the Learning Sciences
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
Distribution: rec
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 15:08:32 GMT

emzx@vax5.cit.cornell.edu writes:
: I'm about 60 pages into Martin Amis's "Time's Arrow."  I've previously read
: "Success," which I thought was actually a decent book, and "London Fields,"
: which was one of the worst books I've ever read.
: 
: Now TA falls into the latter category - it's a great idea, but his writing
: style is just heinous, his plot is nonexistent, and when it really comes down
: to it, Amis is just annoying as hell.

I disagree on London Fields, but here's an old review I wrote agreeing on TA:

Worra Semit: a review of Martin Amis's "Time's Arrow", a novel told as if
watching a movie running backward. (I hope I'm the first to do this.  I kinda
bet I won't be the last.)

As I was walking by our garbage can this morning, a book jumped into my hands:
"Time's Arrow" by Martin Amis.  My first impulse was disappointment: I've done
better than this myself, he's not going to be equal to the job (somehow sensing
what "the job" would turn out to be).

But I sat down to read it, anyway, starting at the end as I always do, & right
away I saw what the job was!  He was writing a novel *forwards* for the first
time ever!  Starting on the last page, with the narrator's birth!  Finally!
Sure, I was disappointed now, but somehow I knew that over the next few days 
I'd forget my disappointment and feel the naive thrill of growing idealization,
as my eyes, sweeping down the page, erased all memory of the book's banal
execution, and substituted the much more seductive image of an experiment well 
worth trying, that image steadily growing in its crystalline excitement as I 
drained each cliched image from my head, out thru my eyes and back down onto 
the page (ghost waves!), until finally in the first few pages the tingly 
pleasure of emptiness peaked, collapsing then abruptly back to an ember as I 
read the opening words, describing the narrator's death.

I sold the book to Crown, straightaway (I feel guilty till I go there, but they
really pay their patrons a lot less for books, which soothed my guilt), and 
watched my interest finally extinguished when I saw it precised in a magazine- 
as it turns out, the last mention I've seen.  I look forward now to his last 
release, "London Fields". (A vicious winner-- I can feel it in my bones....)

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books