From: gardner@hale.ifa.hawaii.edu (Jonathan Gardner)
Subject: Re: Yet another sleepless night
Organization: Institute for Astronomy, Hawaii
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 23:59:45 GMT

I'll try to summarize some of the comments in this thread so I don't have
to quote huge passages.

Essentially, as I see it, Abner put up a list of "men's" issues. Marie then
knocked them down using two types of argument: 1. That the issue is not
true because she or someone she knows provides a counter-example, and 2.
that the issue is the result of having a male-dominated society, and is
therefore somehow less worthy of consideration for her than a woman's issue
in a male-dominated society would be.

I heartily apologize if my paraphrasing misses the mark. Please correct me
if I am wrong.

Now the first type of argument is one I see a lot on the net. Someone makes
a statistical argument (often without providing actual numbers) and someone
else says it is not true because they know someone for whom it is not. 
The essence of statistical arguments, however, provides for the fact that
there are counter-examples. The argument rests (when used correctly) on the
fact that there are more examples in support of the argument than there are
against it. If I say that 85% of X are Y, then coming up with one X that
is not Y does not disprove my argument, as I am allowing for that 15%.
The argument that, for example, too many custody battles go unjustly to
the mother, is not countered by saying that you know a case where a 
custody battle went unjustly to the father. It is only countered by 
arguments that show either that the statistical claim is untrue, or that
it doesn't matter.

The second type of argument misses the point, I think. Lumping all men 
together and saying that the "enlightened" men can easily change the 
system if they want is failing to acknowledge how the system works. In
addition, as Caithelin said, it downplays the power of women. For example,
the vast majority of people in this country are raised primarily by 
their mothers. Society's gender roles, along with other values, good or
bad, are passed on by parents, and mothers in particular.

Let me use a couple of rather absurd examples to show the fallicies in
both of these methods of argument. First, argument #1. If someone says
that having 28 (or so) women out of 435 representatives in the US House
is a problem, I can say, "It is not a problem, _my_ representative is a
woman, and a minority to boot. (Patsy Mink, D-Hawaii, American of
Japanese Ancestry, and representative for Windward Oahu (where I live)
and the counties of Maui, Kauai, and Hawaii.) If you have a problem,
you just aren't living in the right place." This is obviously absurd.
OK, argument #2. If someone says that having 2 women out of 100
Senators is a problem, I can say, "It is not a problem. There are more
women in this country then men, and only half of the men vote. If you
want female senators, all you women have to do is vote for them." This
also is absurd, as it ignores the very power structures that need
changing, and ignores the fact that not all women think alike.  It is
equally absurd to say that I, as a man, do not need to worry about the
fact that women are underrepresented in Congress. In my opinion this 
affects me very much.

The women's movement has for a long time focussed on gaining equality
under the law, and in the corporate power structures. Equality under
the law has mostly been achieved, with only a few exceptions such as in
the military. Equality within the corporate power structures has
further to go, but I think time will help this come about. The first
wedges have been driven into the traditionally all-male power cliques,
and those wedges will widen. I am not saying that people should stop
fighting for equality, only that they are, slowly, winning. The
freshman class at Harvard this coming year has a sex ratio of almost
1:1, up from 3:2 when I was there. In 20 or 40 years those freshman
will be running our nation's corporations, universities and governments.
(I think highly of my alma mater :-) 20 or 40 years ago, when the
current crop of Senators and Corporation presidents were freshman, the
sex ratio was very different.

Then men's movement, however, not needing to fight for equality within
the law or within the power structure, focusses instead on trying to
change society's perceptions of sex roles. The women's movement has
been working on this for a long time, of course, but here is where I
think we still have the furthest to go. Changing the perceptions of
the genders and of gender roles is and will continue to be a long
hard slow process.

I think the absolute most important point to make here, however, is
that the primary argument of the men's movement is that BOTH men and
women are hurt by sexism and sexist gender roles. BOTH men and women
stand to gain by changing them. Even in an obvious zero-sum-game such
as a custody battle, where either the man or the woman will win, our
society will best be served by giving the children to the best 
caretaker, and providing that caretaker with support. Remember we are
talking about female children as well as male children here. Using 
outdated and untrue sexist criteria for awarding custody hurts both
men and women.

The men's movement, while it does contain a few misguided men who are
angry at women for some perceived or even real hurt, is primarily
composed of feminist men. Working for equality is a job for both sexes,
and it is wrong to see gains for women as taking away from gains for
men and vice versa. It is also extremely counterproductive to argue
over who is the bigger victim.

So what am I doing to bring about equality? Well, for one, I am putting
forth a few of the ideas of the men's movement to a group of highly
intelligent, motivated members of the global society. You folks.

I hope, Marie, that you will join me.

The Space Cadet
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jon Gardner                                gardner@hale.ifa.hawaii.edu
Institute for Astronomy                           University of Hawaii
----------------------------------------------------------------------