From: nyikos@math.scarolina.edu (Peter Nyikos)
Subject: Re: Rich Lee is an idiot
Organization: USC  Department of Computer Science
Date: 13 Oct 92 21:41:07 GMT

In <1992Oct10.024036.5942@midway.uchicago.edu> eeb1@ellis.uchicago.edu (e elizabeth bartley) writes:

>In article <exukjb.282.718222974@exu.ericsson.se>
>exukjb@exu.ericsson.se (ken bell) writes:
>>In article <1992Sep29.152344.1261@ccsvax.sfasu.edu>
>>f_williams@ccsvax.sfasu.edu writes:
>>>In article <Bv49L3.FtD@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>,
>>>rlee@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Richard Lee) writes:K> 

>>>> I'm a baby worshiper.  That may be but look.  We are talking about a
>>>> life that will be born if we no NOTHING.  If the mother continues and
>>>> has no abortion the baby will be born.  When you RIP it from her womb
>>>> that is murder.  You are cutting it's throat for all intensive purposes. 
>>>> So how can you justify 9 months of inconvience for the mother with a 
>>>> humans life?

Am I having problems with reading comprehension, or did Rich Lee REALLY
mean to characterize ALL pregnancies in this way?  Could someone provide
me with the context of his statement?

Pregnancy is not a mere "inconvenience".  Sometimes it is a very
REWARDING experience.  I wish I could experience an innocent little
person moving around inside me. [Here I go again with my womb envy!]
Of course it can ALSO be a hellish experience under the wrong circum-
stances.

>>>Nine months of inconvience [sic]?  Let me tell you about my "nine months
>>>of inconvenience."

>[story about a hellish pregnancy deleted]

>>>Wise up, Lee.  You've thoroughly alienated every woman in this discussion
>>>group.

I'd ask Suzanne Forgach's opinion before making such a blanket
statement.

>>But my question is, is the implication or suggestion here that *if* you 
>>hadn't wanted the baby, then you would have been justified in aborting it?  
>>[Is it just fortunate thing for your ten-year old that you did want it,
>>the suggestion being that if you hadn't, it would have been OK not to
>>carry her to term?]

>>That's what I seem to be hearing from some of the women posting here.  I hope
>>I'm wrong. Please advise.

>Sounds like she's saying that referring to pregnancy as "nine months
>of inconvenience" is as inaccurate and offensive as referring to rape
>as "an unpleasant sexual experience".

Or as inaccurate and offensive as referring to intercourse with one's
loving spouse as "an unpleasant sexual experience".  

Of course, Elizabeth was thinking in the context of the original
statement, which had to do with a woman wanting an abortion because
she thought of the pregnancy as an inconvenience.  Some women do
think of it as no more than that.  Not every woman has had her 
consciousness raised by Adrienne Regard, or even Elizabeth
Bartley.

>I believe that a lot of pro-lifers who think that a human life
>(regardless of whether or not this human has a mind) is worth just
>about anything and so would be opposed to legal abortion even if they
>understood how major an upheaval pregnancy can be

Let's pause here for a moment.  Even Elizabeth is opposed to legal
abortion in the third trimester, except for rather weighty health
reasons.  On the other side of the coin, I think even Lee would allow
for a threat-to-the-mother's-life exception, and perhaps more.
How about it, Lee?

> still trivialize
>pregancy so that they can pretend they aren't doing any significant
>harm.

Non sequitur.  One can value something very highly without trivializing
other things; in fact, it is a measure of HOW highly the thing is valued.

>I find the tendency (present on both sides of the issue) to say "I
>have the one truth and am entirely right and need give no apology for
>anything" instead of admitting they're choosing the lesser of two
>evils rather distressing.

I can't speak for Lee, but I do think very much in terms of choosing
the lesser of two evils in case of problem pregnancies. 

To claim that all abortion is the result of problem pregnancies is
intellectually dishonest, IMNSHO.

And to claim that we are ALWAYS choosing the lesser of two evils
is to ignore the fact that pregnancy CAN be an immensely rewarding
experience.

Elizabeth, did you ever resolve in your mind the dispute you had
with Suzanne about whether you lie to yourself, just a little bit?
The above MAY give you food for thought.  (I would not make such
an accusation myself, though, knowing little about your mental
processes.)

Peter Nyikos


Newsgroups: talk.abortion