From: bc744@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mark Ira Kaufman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: theocratic states
Date: 13 Dec 1992 16:07:42 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


Wayne McGuire writes...


#To: Goof
#
#  > 1. When did Israel object to the US becoming a Christian
#  > theocratic state?
#
#The organized American Jewish community is the most vociferous
#critic of any hint that the U.S. might be or become or ever was a
#Christian state, politically or culturally. When a U.S. governor
#(Fordice of Mississippi?) recent remarked, with simple accuracy,
#that the U.S. was predominantly a Christian nation culturally and
#historically, the loudest howls of outrage came from Jewish
#rabbis (according to The New York Times).

   I know the hate-filled lump of matter that you call your brain 
   may not be able to grasp this, but American Jews are AMERICAN.
   They aren't Israeli.  Israelis are Israeli.  American Jews are
   Americans.  If this is confusing to you, maybe you could get a
   normal six-year-old kid of explain it to you.


#At the same time the organized American Jewish community expects
#the American taxpayer to contribute royally to the upkeep of
#Israel, supposedly in large part on the rationale that Israel
#shares America's democratic values. But Israel at the
#governmental level is permeated with Orthodox Jewish theocratic
#influence. Clearly Israel does not share American democratic
#values when it comes to the separation of church and state.

    Of course not.  That's why it's called the Jewish State.


#This is an example of the moral and conceptual schizophrenia of
#so many Jews who are passionate about promoting policies in the
#diaspora which are not at all honored in Israel. I.F. Stone read
#these folks well.
#
#Approximately 2 to 3% of Israel's population is Christian, which
#is equivalent to the Jewish population in the U.S. Imagine if
#they began protesting with vigor, and on fundamental democratic
#grounds, any offenses to their religious sensibilities by the
#Israeli government.

   They have every right to do so.  They are Israeli citizens.


#If the Christian majority in the U.S. did decide to change the
#rules, and institute a Christian state religion and issue special
#identity cards to Jews, they could point to the example of
#Israel--"the light unto the nations"--for a model of a righteous
#way to run a society. American Jews who enthusiastically support
#Israel could hardly object on conceptual or moral grounds. No
#doubt the Christian "rabbis" in the new state would offer Jews
#who did object the option of moving to Israel, where, according
#to Zionist and Orthodox Jewish doctrine, they belong anyway.

    This isn't Israel.  This is America.  You're comparing apples 
    and oranges.  Israel is a JEWISH homeland.  It was founded on
    the land in which there has been a continuous Jewish presence
    since millenia before Mohammad or Jesus.  It is a place whose
    name is mentioned in the most sacred prayers in Judaism.  The
    State of Israel was reborn so Jews would have a homeland.  It
    is apparent that when Americans like Wayne McGuire do not see
    that American Jews are American, it is more proof of why Jews
    need their own homeland.


#If you have any doubts, I strongly support the separation of
#church and state. With each passing year my awe increases for the
#authors of the U.S. Constitution and Federalist Papers, and the
#Anglo-Saxon libertarian genius which they expressed. They came up
#with a blueprint for a liveable society for the future. 

    If you REALLY believe this, how come you can't tell that Jews
    who were born in America, and live in America, are Americans?


#                                                        Israel's
#cultural style, on the other hand, in nearly every respect looks
#like a recipe for a massive self-destruct. I really wonder how
#many Jews truly believe in Israel any more, despite the lip
#service. If voting with their feet is the best indicator, and I
#think it is, I'd say the appeal is running quite thin these days.
#Diaspora Zionists talk a good game, but they are unwilling to put
#their bodies where their mouths are.

    What are you talking about???


#Can there be a more ridiculous figure in the world than a
#militant nationalist of any stripe who spends his or her time
#ranting at citizens in a nation other than the one which is the
#obsessive object? 

    Now that you mention it, such a figure IS ridiculous.  You're
    obsessed with Israel, and yet you rant away at Americans.  Oh
    yeah.  I forgot.  You don't regard American Jews as American.


#                    If one's nationalist passions are running high,
#the sensible thing to do is to take up residence on the hallowed
#turf.

    I'm glad that you're not smart enough to have not posted this
    statement.  It is more revealing about your feelings than any
    analysis I could make.