From: wvanweer@wsuaix.csc.wsu.edu (Wayne VanWeerthuizen)
Subject: Re: Jesus as Messiah, but not as God
Organization: Washington State University
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 92 03:12:26 GMT

In article <LJMORLY.92Sep30102750@polaris.utu.fi> ljmorly@polaris.utu.fi (Laura Johanna Manninen) writes:
>wvanweer@wsuaix.csc.wsu.edu (Wayne VanWeerthuizen) writes:
>> Okay, so I'm being sarcastic.  But what you have stated is exactly the
>> truth!  Jesus Christ was absolutely totally human. Period.
>
>And the Son of God. Period.

The term "Son of God" does not and can not imply deity.  Look up for
example, 1Sam 7:14 (Solomon); John 1:12-13 (All believers); Hos 11:1 (Israel).

The term "Son of God" for one, shows his relation to someone ELSE who is
God, not that he is God.

>>     But read the entire book and take good notice how the doctrine of
>>     Christ's deity is entirely lacking.  Actually, the doctrine appears
>>     nowhere in scripture.  I refer you to Acts because it is an easier
>>     book to read, and because I know of no more than one even falsly
>>     aledge reference to Christ's diety.

>shtuyot. How do you deal with Is. 9:5 (9:6), Ps. 110, Ps. 2, Prov. 8, 
>Micah 5:1 (5:2?), Zech 12:10, for the beginning ?
>
>- Laura

Psalm 2.2 "... against Yahveh and his Anointed."

   - The text clearly distinguishes Yahveh from the Messiah.
     Yahveh is not the Messiah, the Messiah is not Yahveh.
  
Psalm 2.7 "You are my Son, today I have become you Father."

   - Yahveh then is clearly the Father, and the Messiah is his Son.

              !!   Now realize that ONLY Yahveh is God.   !!
              ----------------------------------------------
       Dt 6.4:   Yahveh is our God, only Yahveh.  
       Ex 20.2:  I am Yahveh your God, ..., you shall have no other
                   God's than me.
       Isa 44.5: I am Yahveh, and there is no other; besides me there
                   is no god.

"Orthodox" (sic) arguements not withstanding, believe in the deity of
Christ amounts to polytheism by Biblical standards.  The Bible defines
deity as a personality knowledgable and potent over all reality.  Having
two such persons would amount to two deities.

BTW, scripture never uses the phrase "God the Son", since there is only
one God, the Father. (1 Cor 8.6)  When the Bible says "God the Father" it
is as an appositive.  It is grammatically set to show that God=The Father,
and NOT to distinguish one divine "hypostasis" from another.

Back to Psalms 2.7

   - The doctrine of "Eternal Sonship" purposed by several of the "Church
     Fathers" can not be Biblically defended.
       - Yahveh became the Father, he wasn't always the Father.
       - The text here in Psalms refers to a particular point in time.
       - The sonship of Solomon was the antetype of Messiah's sonship,
          and both were by "adoption".
       - John 1.12-13 shows we can have the same adoption.


Psalms 110.1 "Yahveh speaks to my Sovereign..."

   - The Hebrew term adonia imples nothing of diety, ever.  It is used
     both of men and of Yahveh.  See Ex 21.2-11, 1Sam 22.12, Num 12.11.
   - When used of Yahveh, it always refers to his total authority, never 
     to his deity. 
   - This verse again clearly distinguishes between God (using the divine
     name, Yahveh.) and the Messiah (using a general term meaning simply
     Lord, Master, or Sovereign: Which is appropraite for the passage 
     has reference to Messiah's reign as King on the throne of David.)

   - The practice of substituting a title such as "LORD" for the divine
     name is not scriptural.  It has led to much confusion with other
     general terms also translated "Lord"  It also ruins passages that
     mention his name.  "Blessed be the name of the LORD", should read
     "Blessed be the name of Yahveh." (However reasonably transliterated.)

Neither of those passages even hints that the Messiah is other than a
mere human being.  Or, that he preexisted.  What was your point?

Isaiah 9:6 is well addressed in many standard commentaries, so I refuse
  to delve into much detail.  Basically, the context is that of a final
  battle followed but extended peace.  Take notice of this translation
  from Charles A. Briggs' book "Messianic Prophecy." [Page 200]

  "And his name is called Wonderful Counsellor, Divine Hero, Distributor
   of Spoils, Prince of Peace." 

  The Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon suggests the translation,
  "Mighty Hero".  Several modern English translations concur.

  [Briggs gave several reasons for chosing the reading "distributer of
   spoils" instead of "everlasting Father."  But, I don't no Hebrew
   well enough to explain them.]


Micah 5:2 
  Briggs points out parrells in the language then says, "Only the former
  denote temporal origin, the latter local origin.  The reference is not
  to the eternal generation of the Messiah, as some have hastily supposed,
  mislead by the New Testament doctrine of the Son of God; but to the
  ancient promises of the advent as evidences of the ancient purpose of
  God to raise up the Messiah."  [Messianic Prophecy, page 218]

Zechariah 12.10 is duely emmended by the translators of the NRSV.
  (The change is only of a single letter in the Hebrew, and is needed
   to have the subsequent pronouns be meaningful.)

  "And I will pour out a spirit of compassion and supplication on the
   house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that, when they
   look on the one whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as
   one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps
   over a firstborn."

   Although Briggs prefers not to make this emendation he did mention
   some of his contemporaries who did make it.  He prefers to think of
   Yahveh poetically indentifing himself with the Messiah.


Lastly Proverbs 8.22 is not even Messianic.  It is simply a personification
of God's wisdom.


Only Yahveh is God.


 
 
  
-- 
Wayne VanWeerthuizen | wvanweer@wsuaix.csc.wsu.edu | Christian, X-trinitarian
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