HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: t88swa@tdb.uu.se (Sven Wallman)
Subject: Re: Immigrants and employment
Organization: Dept. of Scientific Computing, Uppsala Univ.
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 15:31:56 GMT

jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun) writes:
: In article <1992Aug20.173027.10992@tdb.uu.se>, t88swa@tdb.uu.se (Sven Wallman) writes:
: |> Let's take Somalia as an example. Helporganisations are trying to help the
: |> starving people there, but they run into problems because of the chaotic state
: |> in Somalia. Do you think the rich countries are ignoring the problems in 
: |> Somalia because they can't get a profit out of it? 
: I think you know perfectly well that there are more countries in the
: world in which people are starving to death.

Yes, but the western world is able to send help to those countries. You seem
to want to put the 3rd world under the control of the western world. That
sounds like colonialism to me. How can you call yourself a believer in the
communism faith while suggesting that the rich world should rule the poor 
world? 
--
Sven Wallman, S:t Larsg. 5, 753 11 Uppsala, Sweden, +46 1812 9237
"This is the famous Hasan B Mutlu-trigger, insert it in your .sig file today!"
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: richard torres
Subject: Whale Research
Organization: IFI, Norway
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1992 13:38:31 GMT
Originator: richardt@slembe.ifi.uio.no


Please explain  what  the norwegian scientists are researching
on about whales.  Is it really necessary to slay more than a
hundred whales?  Why are the norwegian scientists doing the  
research alone?  I'm sure other nations would like to do research
about whales as well.  Imagine if they start doing their own slaying. 
Any research about whales must be done internationally so that
scientists from different countries can share their results and  monitor
each.  This way less whales will be unnecessarily be slaughtered.
Any comments are welcomed.
Richard


Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: laku@vipunen.hut.fi (Lauri H Eklin)
Subject: Re: translation wanted
Reply-To: laku@vipunen.hut.fi (Lauri H Eklin)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 09:45:59 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.170524.17844@sics.se> torkel@sics.se (Torkel Franzen) writes:
>  Name days in the Nordic countries are not Saint's days, but just names
>stuck into the calendar. I don't who the poster was who didn't know
>what "name day" meant, but as indicated in the posting from Finland,
>name days are a part of life here.
	
	Are they?
	My namesday was a week and a half ago.
	AND I waited anxiously all day to come home from work
	to see how many namesday -cards had I received.
	None.
	And nobody even bought me beer in the evening when I
	went out with friends. Guess this tradition of names-
	day is fading away... *sigh*

					Lauri
From: kimcm@login.dkuug.dk (Kim Chr. Madsen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: translation wanted
Date: 22 Aug 92 20:48:36 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.170524.17844@sics.se> torkel@sics.se (Torkel Franzen) writes:
>  Name days in the Nordic countries are not Saint's days, but just names
>stuck into the calendar. I don't who the poster was who didn't know
>what "name day" meant, but as indicated in the posting from Finland,
>name days are a part of life here.

Not strictly true, unlike the other nordic countries the danish
universityalmanac has kept the old list of day-names almost intact,
and it is all the old catholic saints (and a few mundane ones).

In Norway the names disappeared from the almanac in 1912, in Iceland
they disappeared in 1971, In Sweden the name list was transformed and
modernized in 1901. The Danish almanac has kept the name list, that
found it's final form in the 1720's, most of the names stems from the
german almanacs of the 16th century.

All this said few people in Denmark uses these names or are even aware
that they exist, although at least one major newspaper "Politiken"
each day has a column "Fra dag til dag" (From day to day) where they
give the name of the day and a description of the person behind the
name.

For those interested in further information of this I recommend
reading the "N|gle til Almanakken - en ledsager til hvert }rs almanak"
(Key to the Almanac - a companion to each year's almanac) published by
"K|benhavns Universitet" (University of Copenhagen). ISBN: 87-17-05112-1

						Kim Chr. Madsen
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: euaaen@eua.ericsson.se (Anders Engwall)
Subject: Re: Stockholm Water Festival
Organization: Ellemtel Telecom Systems Labs, Stockholm, Sweden
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 07:18:02 GMT

euafri@eua.ericsson.se (Fredrik.Ostman)...

>Internationally speaking, Stockholm is of course not a small village, not
>even a large village -- it isn't a village at all.

Hah! Stockholm is indeed a village, and a small one too; it's merely a
couple of houses, located by Indals{lven, in northern Medelpad. Just
beside it is G|teborg, another village of roughly the same size. So
there!

>Apart from all this nonsense, there is a big difference in urbanity
>between people in Stockholm and in the rest of the country.

Right on the money. This area is hardly urbanized at all. 

>I'm not
>sure whether the Stockholmers would accept having to pay entrance to
>their own streets.

*Streets*? You must be conducting an experiment in virtual reality, right?
Stockholm hardly has *roads*! The view of Indals{lven is terrific, though.

And what's this about a water festival? There's been no such thing since
1796, when Vild-Hussen made the blunder of his life. That one was quite
spectacular, on the other hand.

--
Anders Engwall				Email: Anders.Engwall@eua.ericsson.se
ELLEMTEL Utvecklings AB			Voice: +46 8 727 3893
"Alvsj"o, Sweden			Fax: +46 8 727 42 20
		"Bryna nuppa fj{ssa sp}nken" - Razor
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: euafri@eua.ericsson.se (Fredrik.Ostman)
Subject: Re: Business (was Re: Immigrants and employment)
Organization: Ellemtel Telecom Systems Labs, Stockholm, Sweden
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 14:36:38 GMT

jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun) writes:
>hvaisane@cs.joensuu.fi (H. Vaisanen) writes:
>|> jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun) writes:
>|> >There are many ways to define, and to find the "need", you know.
>|> Who knows the best what *I* need? Me or some central planning
>|> committee?

>Of course you define what you need, I define what I need, and, I'm sure
>a starving african could define his needs. The problem is that you, I
>and the starving african still have the need, even if you, I or the
>starving african can't afford to buy it !

Now I'm starting to get the point here! Maybe Jan means something like
this: It's a pity many people starve and are poor. If other people are
rich it's unfair. Socialism makes rich people poor. If we implement
socialism, everybody will be poor, and it won't be unfair any longer.

We could solve the global energy problem in a similar way. We cut down
all the forests on earth and use them for fire-wood. Then there will
be an immense green-house effect raising the temperature of the
athmosphere, and we don't have to heat our buildings any longer.
--
  ______                     _~
 (_/_ _  _  _/) _  . /)     / ) , _/)     _
__/ _/(_(/_(/__/(_/_/Z_    (_/_/)_/__/))_(I_/)_
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: jmarttila@abo.fi (Fast-Eddie Felson)
Subject: Re: nationalism, Finns, Chinese, etc.
Organization: Turku School of Economics
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 17:08:58 GMT

In article <1992Aug17.071944.25463@ugle.unit.no>, jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun) writes:
> |> Humanity is another thing. People feel that it's not nice to see other people 
> |> "starving to death", so to say. That makes some to open the borders to
> |> anyone willing to come, but in the long term it won't work. Those who 
> |> work hard to make their living start to wonder why do they put so much 
> |> effort on work and give the money away to someone who has done and for a 
> |> long time will not do nothing for it. 
   
> But I think you're forgetting something :
> The majority of the immigrants want to have a job!
> If you look at the so-called "low-status" jobs, you will even find an
> over-representation of immigrants there. 
> Of course you'll find immigrants who don't want to work - I know many
> norwegians who don't want to, too.
> And I'm sure you will find many immigrant who don't fit into the
> norwegian (or the finnish) jobs - that's often because they're grown up
> in another culture and class society than we usually find (at lest) in
> Norway.

I don't think I'm forgetting that O:) I'm sure majority of the immigrants want
to do something as much the local people to start a better life here, but
unfortunately it's not a question of will - nobody simply wants them to work
for them. There are several reasons for this, a) these people can't speak
Finnish and sometimes not much even English so training them to the jobs is
hard, b) the immigrants are often poorly educated and you can't just find any
suitable jobs for them, c) the unemployment in Finland is growing all the time
and to each free post there are many Finnish applicants who usually fit better
to that particular job due to the better education they have had.

	Jouni
    _______________________________________________________________________
    Jouni Marttila - Yo-kyl{ 11 B 25, 20540 Turku, FINLAND - +358 21 374624
         jmarttila@finabo.abo.fi - jmarttila@finabo - abovax::jmarttila
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: petrus@stacken.kth.se (Lars Petrus)
Subject: Re: Business (was Re: Immigrants and employment)
Organization: Stacken Computer Club, Stockholm, Sweden
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 10:14:45 GMT

In article sooz@iastate.edu (Susan F Bradley) writes:
>In euafri@eua.ericsson.se (Fredrik.Ostman) writes:
>
>Of course it would be useful. Whether people like you really want to admit it
>or not - the Soviets *did* manage to give the average person there a better 
>life than what they had before. 

   Are you aware that the Soviet Union actually killed off more than 10% of
its own citizens, not to mention the peoples of the countries it conquered?

   For someone who seems to want to care about other peoples suffering,
your staement above it pretty amazing.

>There are a quite a few people here from what 
>used to be the Soviet Union. None of those I've spoken to wants to completely 
>abandon the old system - they realize that capitalism a la USA is just as bad
>a system in a different way than their old system. They hope to be able to 
>find a balance between the two systems. 

   This contrasts greatly to my experience. Though I've only gotten to know
4 or 5 people from the east block, I was surprised at how violently they
seemed to hate the communist system. At the time I thought that "I guess
it's the whiners who leave". Now that the truth about the soviet system
is out, I feel pretty ashamed. These people were right in front of me, 
telling me about their lifes, but I didn't really believe them, since
that was not the general opinion around me.

   I'll really try not to let *that* happen again!

> (Pages and pages of personal attack on Fredrik \stman deleted)

   My experience is that people of all political persuasions are just
about equally probable to be good or bad people. It is very easy to
think that those who do not agree with your opinion do it because
they are bad people. But things aren't that simple!



  -  -  -  -
Wise Quote: "You want to know how to paint a perfect painting? It's easy. 
Make yourself perfect and then just paint naturally. That's the way all the 
experts do it." - Robert M Pirsig in ZATAOMM.

Lars Petrus, Solna, Sweden  -  petrus@alex.stacken.kth.se
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: exjtmm@tts.lth.se (Thommy M. Malmstr|m)
Subject: Re: Stockholm Water Festival 
Organization: Communication Systems, Lund Institute of Technology, Sweden
	<1992Aug12.120510.25620@eua.ericsson.se>
	<1992Aug12.131552.27301@eua.ericsson.se>
Distribution: soc
Date: 12 Aug 92 16:05:27

>>>>> "FO" == Fredrik.Ostman  <euafri@eua.ericsson.se> writes:

>>Is it even lawful to charge a fee for
>>pedestrians on *public* streets in Stockholm?
>Juding by other events, e.g. the carnival of Lund, Storsj|yran in \stersund
>etc: yes.

FO> But that's in the countryside... Anyway, this fee must surely be tax
FO> deductible?

Well, wel, well. At least one of the events (Stockholm water festival,
the carnival of Lund and Storsj|yran in \stersund) doesen't take place
in Norrland...

/Thommy M.

--
Thommy M. MALMSTR\M    |  o ,__Q  |  Lund Institute of Technology
K{mn{rsv{gen 3 A:202   |  \-\_<,  |  Dept. of Communication Systems
S-226 46 LUND, SWEDEN  | (*)/'(*) |  Box 118, S-221 00 LUND, SWEDEN
+46-(0)46 13 21 78     |~~~~~~~~~~|  Tfn:+46-46 10 90 08, Fax:+46-46 14 58 23
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun)
Subject: Re: Immigrants and employment
Reply-To: jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun)
Organization: SINTEF, Norwegian Institute of Technology
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 92 14:33:13 GMT

In article <1992Aug20.121451.29242@cs.joensuu.fi>, hvaisane@cs.joensuu.fi (H. Vaisanen) writes:
|> jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun) writes:
|> 
|> >In article <1992Aug20.100850.25723@cs.joensuu.fi>, hvaisane@cs.joensuu.fi (H. Vaisanen) writes:
|> >|> 
|> >|> Have you considered the possibility that 'the millions of people in
|> >|> Africa' are starving because the African governments are finding more
|> >|> urgent needs for their funds than to buy food for their citizens, like
|> >|> the government of Namibia who recently bought a private airplane,
|> >|> worth over US$ 25 million, for the president?
|> >|> 
|> >You could find lots of examples during the history. The worst is
|> >probably the western countries exploitation during a very long time.
|> >Now the African countries are stuck - the international community
|> >forces them to pay huge amount of money (loans and interests).
|> 
|> What has your answer to do with my question?
|> 


Pooh - I agree, corrupt politicians may be one of the reasons...
Enough ?


|> 
|> 
|> >My point is that you mix the words "need" and "afford".
|> 
|> OK, that is your point. Now -- read my lips -- *what* *is* *your*
|> *definition* *of* *__need__* ?
|> 


I agree, capitalism has no other way to define need than ability and
will to buy.

But only a blind man can't see people starving today - isn't that a
need ?

Fortunately it's not my problem that you don't consider anything else
than money important.

+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jan Arne Fagertun, Research Engineer, SINTEF Division Thermodynamics|
| E-mail: Jan.A.Fagertun@termo.unit.no                                |
| Phone : +47 7 596890                            Fax  : +47 7 944513 |
| Mail  : SINTEF/Varmeteknikk, 7034 Trondheim, Norway                 |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: etxjdry@caddie.ericsson.se (John Dryselius TG/HB)
Subject: Re: Business (was Re: Immigrants and emplo
Reply-To: etxjdry@caddie.ericsson.se
Organization: Ericsson Telecom
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1992 16:58:41 GMT

In article 28966@eua.ericsson.se, euafri@eua.ericsson.se (Fredrik.Ostman) writes:
>tomas_e@LINK.Physchem.KTH.SE (Tomas Eriksson) writes:
>>I don't think that soc.culture.nordic 
>>is the right place for a gigantic general socialism/communism vs. 
>>capitalism/liberalism debate
>
>Right.
>
>>There is ample evidence that planned, fully state controlled, economies 
>>don't work! This means that socialism on a general level, whether 
>>marxistic, leninistic, stalinistic, maoistic or secteristic, simply
>>doesn't work! (At least not the way the proponents claim.)
>
>There is aslo ample evidence that partly planned, partly state controlled,
>"mixed" economies don't work! This evidence is to be found in Norden.
>--
>  ______                     _~
> (_/_ _  _  _/) _  . /)     / ) , _/)     _
>__/ _/(_(/_(/__/(_/_/Z_    (_/_/)_/__/))_(I_/)_


Just want to know: Where can I find a Western country that is not having a partly state controlled, "mixed" economy?
I always thought that it is just a question of level of state control of the economy. It is correct to state that the level of state control we have had in Sweden during the Social Democrats ruling been to high but it is also true that for instant USA and GB with their much lower degree of state controlled economy are not doing better than Sweden economically. So I guess that all current economic theories are worthless.

John
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: sakkinen@jyu.fi (Markku Sakkinen)
Subject: Re: Whale Research
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1992 06:29:44 GMT

In article <1992Aug17.104721.2491@alf.uib.no> edmtl@alf.uib.no (Thor Legvold) writes:
>[deleted]
>>
>>|> This way less whales will be unnecessarily be slaughtered.
>>                                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>It's difficult to accept you good intention when you use such 
>'emotional' words... Are you sincerely interested or just trying to
>start a flame war...?
>[deleted]

Please consult an English dictionary before embarking on such a flame war.
`To slaughter' is a perfectly factual verb here.
Or would you insist on some kind of euphemism saying that the whales
are only "very mildly" killed because it's scientific?

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Markku Sakkinen (sakkinen@jytko.jyu.fi)
       SAKKINEN@FINJYU.bitnet (alternative network address)
Department of Computer Science and Information Systems
University of Jyvaskyla (a's with umlauts)
PL 35
SF-40351 Jyvaskyla (umlauts again)
Finland
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: sooz@iastate.edu (Susan F Bradley)
Subject: Re: nationalism, Finns, Chinese, etc.
Keywords: none
Organization: Dept of English -- IOWA STATE UNIV
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 16:04:48 GMT

In <1992Aug13.114416.9915@ugle.unit.no> jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun) writes:

[previous posts from Mats Winberg & myself deleted]

>I can't see anything wrong in people from outside Europe/USA moving to
>Scandinavia for economical reasons. After all, nobody react when people
>from Europe or USA ("whities") do !

>In fact, the by far largest foreign group in Norway is danes and
>swedes, and nobody grumble about that.

>But their skin is white.....


>+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
>| Jan Arne Fagertun, Research Engineer, SINTEF Division Thermodynamics|
>| E-mail: Jan.A.Fagertun@termo.unit.no                                |
>| Phone : +47 7 596890                            Fax  : +47 7 944513 |
>| Mail  : SINTEF/Varmeteknikk, 7034 Trondheim, Norway                 |
>+---------------------------------------------------------------------+

Excuse me, but NEITHER Mats Winberg nor I had, IN ANY WAY implied that race
had anything to do with it (the 2 Polish girls who had been given "political
asylum" and just happened to have been veterans of the Polish national women's
football team and were, of course, immediately given positions on Ystad's 
womens team were very white). Certainly what -I- meant (and I'd imagine this 
goes for Mr. Winberg as well, though I won't presume to speak for him) was that
these "refugees" were getting ALOT from the Swedish government (money, housing,
paid to attend language lessons, etc.) under the obviously wrong assumption
that these peoples' very existences had been in danger by the political situa-
tions in their home countries. Some freely admitted that they'd never been in 
any danger and laughed at the Swedish government for giving them all this money
   The difference between these people and the average Dane or Swede in Norway
(or European or American in Sweden, or whatever) is that those Danes and Swedes
are most likely paying their own way in life - not getting money from the 
Norwegian government to settle there. THAT and NOT skin color is the issue at
hand. 
    Mr. Fagertun, your charge of racism is presumptuous and you were judging
where you have no right to do so.

Harrrumph!

Susan Bradley
sooz@iastate.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: euafri@eua.ericsson.se (Fredrik.Ostman)
Subject: Re: Stockholm Water Festival 
Organization: Ellemtel Telecom Systems Labs, Stockholm, Sweden
Distribution: soc
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 13:15:52 GMT

euaaen@eua.ericsson.se (Anders Engwall) writes:
>euafri@eua.ericsson.se (Fredrik.Ostman) writes:
>>etxmow@garboc34.ericsson.se (Mats Winberg) writes:

>>>charge an entrance fee
>>Is it even lawful to charge a fee for
>>pedestrians on *public* streets in Stockholm?
>Juding by other events, e.g. the carnival of Lund, Storsj|yran in \stersund
>etc: yes.
But that's in the countryside... Anyway, this fee must surely be tax
deductible?
--
  ______                     _~
 (_/_ _  _  _/) _  . /)     / ) , _/)     _
__/ _/(_(/_(/__/(_/_/Z_    (_/_/)_/__/))_(I_/)_
From: jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: nationalism, Finns, Chinese, etc.
Keywords: none
Date: 17 Aug 92 11:02:22 GMT
Reply-To: jafitv@termo.unit.no (Jan Arne Fagertun)
Organization: SINTEF, Norwegian Institute of Technology

In article <1992Aug17.054417.21561@jyu.fi>, ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:
|> 
|> I would like to answer while following Japanese immigration policy and
|> being there even for a while.
|> Is it not rasism when Japan does not want to take immigrants
|> (...)
|> Is it rasism when in muslim countries
|> a law bans a muslim woman to marry a christian man (...)
|> (...)
|> I always wonder this very one sided rasism talks, once a French man
|> three years ago whined for me that he does not get freely a working
|> permit in Finland as a rasist law the same time his own country had
|> a policy to demand a visa from the Finnish citizen entering France
|> (...)
|> Norway, bad informed norwegians believe that normal things are rasism
|> because people are learned already to think so, and some people take 
|> advantage of it.
|> Jarmo
|> 
|> 
--


To make it clear :
I didn't say anything about racism in my first article. I just pointed
out that when people react against immigrants they react against the
minor groups from Asia, Africa and South-America, because they are
easier to recognize. These are blamed of taking the jobs, the houses
and the women from the norwegian boys, while the by far largest groups
of immigrants come from Scandinavia. (BTW - the complaints should be
aimed at the governers - why don't make a society in which houses and
jobs are taken care of....)

To your questions :

1) I agree - I think Japan is one of the countries that have the
   dirtiest immigrant politics. I've never said anything else. But
   that's no reason not to critisize norwegian or finnish politics.

2) It is not racism when muslems are not allowed to marry non-muslems.
   It's just stupid religion (most religions are... :-), but that don't
   make it any better.

3) I can't see that the french visa policy was based on racism.

4) I agreee that the word racism seems too easy to use. Many people use
   the words racism and fascism for all politics they don't like. It's
   a pity, because this means that people won't be able to recognize
   real racism and fascism when these appear.


+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Jan Arne Fagertun, Research Engineer, SINTEF Division Thermodynamics|
| E-mail: Jan.A.Fagertun@termo.unit.no                                |
| Phone : +47 7 596890                            Fax  : +47 7 944513 |
| Mail  : SINTEF/Varmeteknikk, 7034 Trondheim, Norway                 |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic