From: luong@cray.com (Luong Nguyen-Duy)
Subject: Re: Tai Chi Basic Movements (Was : Re: A few questions about T'ai Chi..)
Keywords: Wardoff, Rollback, Press, Push, Open, Close
Organization: Cray Research Superservers Inc., San Diego CA, USA
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 00:51:36 GMT

In article <1aids7INNmei@agate.berkeley.edu> robinson@cogsci.Berkeley.EDU (Michael Robinson) writes:
>In article <1992Oct2.031859.9525@equalizer.cray.com> luong@cray.com (Luong Nguyen-Duy) writes:
>>I think Wardoff/rollback/press/push (Peng, Lu, Ji,An) are very much the basic,
>>and important movements in the Chen form (the first form).  If one only
>>looks at specific body postition/strucure to identify the movements, then yes,
>>there are very few places that these four moves are used.  But if one looks
>>at these movements as muscle/energy pattern and inner control then they are
>>used all over in the form, especially Peng (wardoff).
>>Example : In single whip, the left hand does the Wardoff.  "Wave-hands
>>like clouds" are just series of presses.
>
>Well, at that point, you could make the same argument for just about any
>martial art.  I don't see what it would get you, though, unless you were
>really attached to Yang style and wanted to turn everything into it.

I think that is important because then one is no longer attached to
the outside form.  The essence of Tai Chi is inside.  Once you can do
wardoff from the tan tien, not from the hand; once you can wardoff and not
loosing your opponent's hand; once you can support your wardoff hand from
you heel (and not arm muscle); once you can wardoff with energy coiling up
from the heel -= then you got Tai Chi, other stuffs are just
techniques (still important but not as important).

All the twining and twisting in Chen style are to condition your muscles
to be more flexible and loose (rubber like), so that once you extend you can
shrink also (I think) to allow better chi coiling.  At high level, and I have
seen this, the body does not twist and turn as much, but inside the engergy
twist and turn.

Yang style students are not normally taught silk reeling exercices
(not that I know of).  In Chen style, the first thing I learn was some
20 or so different silk reeling exercices.  But high level Yang style
practioners must know about this, I just do not know when in their
progression that these are taught.

It is true that Yang style put different emphasis then Chen style (and
I do not know much about Yang style to elaborate) but the basics are
the same.


Luong Nguyen-Duy


>
>Some of the comments in this thread make me wonder whether there are a bunch
>of people out there practicing Chen style as some sort of funny looking Yang
>style.  The principles and application of Chen style are essentially helical
>(twining) and the principles and application of Yang style are essentially
>cylindrical (reeling silk).  I just don't see how you can casually interpret
>one as the other and vice versa.
>
>
>
>-- 
>  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  Michael Robinson                          UUCP:   ucbvax!cogsci!robinson
>                                        INTERNET: robinson@cogsci.berkeley.edu


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