From: Will Steeves <goid@zooid.guild.org>
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: men's issues vs. (1)
Date: 27 Aug 1992 16:57:37 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

farthing@leland.Stanford.EDU (ljf) writes...
LJ> In article <14odc7INN7s6@agate.berkeley.edu> uunet!infmx!robert@ncar.UCAR
LJ> Robert Coleman writes:
LJ> >It's easy to ignore
LJ> >your own advantages and concentrate on the things about your life
LJ> >that your don't like.

LJ> This sounds suspiciously to me like the "white man's burden."  How
LJ> difficult it is to be in a position of power, how limiting that
LJ> position is.

LJ> I agree to some extent, but it angers me that women are supposed to
LJ> have so much sympathy for the power that men as a class can abuse.


LJF, since you apparently still have me in your "kill" file, you will not get
to read this...  If someone happens to think that this post is not worth his
seeing it, please feel free to forward this to him, with my thanks...

Robert and people like him (myself included) are *not* asking women to have
sympathy for the result of men's "power abuses" ;  we are asking that men and
women work together to understand the problems of *both* genders, rather than
denying each other's problems.  Some men deny women's problems ; some women
deny men's problems (and some men too, I imagine), and indeed, go on to
declare that they are not really problems, but are just another "patriarchal"
attempt to "oppress" women.  Also, some who say that men *do* have problems,
say that they are minor, and that they in fact are the fault of *men* only,
because "they have all the power," which amounts to "You made your bed so
you can lie in it," which is *quite* insensitive.  In fact, to tell men that
our problems are our own, is like telling a woman who has been raped, that
"it's your fault".


LJ> "Women's point of view has been expostulated upon endlessly..."  By
LJ> whom?  By women, by women writing, talking, working together.  By
LJ> women losing the fight for the ERA, losing political races.  Fighting
LJ> like hell.  Not by men.

There have been plenty of men interested in women's causes.  Why have you
negated their input?


LJ> I've been reading Marcia Cohen's _The
LJ> Sisterhood_.  Do you know that Betty Friedan nearly missed a
LJ> demonstration because her husband had battered her and she didn't want
LJ> to be seen in public with a black eye and bruised face?

The fact that it was in a book does not make it gospel fact.  I am certainly
willing to believe it that this was the case, but to use this as an example
to say that men are in fact not interested in women's issues, but in fact,
or openly hostile, is quite misplaced.


LJ> And now it seems to me that you're saying, "Look, we (men) listened to
LJ> you for 20 years, now it's our (men's) turn."  Did men listen?  Do
LJ> women have the same rights that you do?

No, but conversely, there are also some rights which women have, that men do
not.  The "I'm Pro Male-Choice" (*not* about men getting abortions...) thread
[Moderator's note: this thread is in soc.men - MB]
seems to aptly give one situation where this is the case.  Also, the huge
number of custody cases decided in favour of the mother, seems to be
indicative of a judicial bias in women's favour and men's disfavour.

What we need to do, is work on *all* inequities, not just men's or just women's.


LJ> Our country is on the verge of outlawing abortion.  Have you been
LJ> listening to that, are you helping in that fight?

I thought that this topic was verbotem in soc.feminism, at least in terms of
arguing the validity of a particular side, which you seem to be doing...
[Moderator's note: ljf is not *arguing* either side - MB]

LJ> >       I beg you, give a listen to some of the men who've had a
LJ> >chance to do that emotional introspection.  You've heard women's
LJ> >views for 20 years.  You live a woman's life.  Give yourself a chance
LJ> >to learn something past the stereotypes about men, and maybe you'll
LJ> >find that our progress isn't very different, that our problems are
LJ> >linked to your problems, and our problems are worth your time for
LJ> >that reason if nothing else.

LJ> Women listen to men.  Women constantly hear men's views.  Women is
LJ> still the "other," where masculine pronouns are generic.  But you
LJ> still insist that women should now be quiet (after centuries of being
LJ> silent and silenced) and listen to men who have had a time to be
LJ> introspective.  Once again, women are asked to put their needs on the
LJ> back burner.

*Nobody* is asking for women's issues to take a back seat.  Robert is only
asking that we at least be allowed into the car!

---
Will Steeves, goid@zooid.guild.org                      "Neil Hull is GOiD"
ZOOiD BBS, Toronto, Ontario - The Zoo Of Ids            "GOiDS Rule"
(416) 322-7876
---
 * SLMR 2.1a * Oxymoron : Military Intelligence


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