From: ata@hfsi.uucp (John Ata - FSO)
Subject: Re: What did Judas betray?
Organization: HFS, Inc., McLean VA
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 03:01:33 GMT

In article <1992Nov9.015251.13517@newsroom.utas.edu.au> Tim.ONeill@english.utas.edu.au (Tim O'Neill) writes:
>In article <1992Nov7.200723.17356@hfsi.uucp>, ata@hfsi.uucp (John Ata - FSO) writes:
>> 
>> In article <1992Nov5.235359.14072@imagen.com> avi@hawk.imagen.com writes:
>
>> >2) The talmud is a MUCH more reliable source because despite the many years and
>> >   hardships, there is ONLY 1 version of it (the Jersualem/Babelonyan being
>> >   complementary). The New Testament however, has 4 different and often 
>> >   contradictory versions (the 4 gospels) of the same story of Jesus' life and
>> >   death.
>> 
>> Can we stop this "My book is better than your book" argument?
>
>Why? Because he's pointed out that your books (plural) all contradict each 
>other?

No, because it doesn't add anything useful to the discussion.

> 
>> >3) The Sandhedrin had no special interest in Jesus, even in the New Testament it
>> >   is said that there were MANY False Messiahs before Jesus and NONE was
>> >   crucified ! Certainly, there were false Messiahs After Jesus, the most known of
>> >   which is Shabtai Zvi (300-400 years ago).  Neither was cruficied nor executed
>> >   in any way, even if their bad influence was MUCH more prominent among jews then
>> >   Jesus' ever was. (especially true with Shabtai Zvi) - So, why the exception
>> >   with Jesus ?
>> 
>> Because He was the real McCoy :) and the Sanhedrin knew that he
>> was a threat to their authority.  Remember, Jesus never claimed to
>> be a Messiah in the way the word was used at the time.  Most of
>> the conventional wisdom of the day held the Messiah to be an
>> earthly king who would once again lead Israel to greatness.  If
>> that had been Jesus's message i.e. make me king, and I will defeat
>> your enemies and make you great once again, then odds are that he
>> would have ended up like the other False messiahs, both before and
>> after, a forgotten inkblot on the pages of history.  Instead, the
>> Sanhedrin saw him as a real threat to their power, and wanted to
>> eliminate Him.
>
>This is pure nonsense John. Instead of repeating christian myths I would
>suggest you do some research on the nature of messianic expectation in the
>intertestamental period. This nonsense of'The Jews were expecting a Kingly
>Messiah and Jesus was someting quite different.' is a gross oversimplification
>of a vast and complex subject. The jews of Yeshua's time were actually expecting
>all sorts of messiahs: spiritual beings from heaven, warriors of the line of
>David, priestly messiahs, kingly messiahs, prophet messiahs and combinations
>of the above. I don't believe that Jesus was a revolutionary kingly messiah,
>but his spiritual/apocalyptic idea of the messianic status was not new at all.
>It's pretty clear that the Sanhedrin handed him over to the Romans because
>the Romans wanted to execute him (rightly or wrongly) for sedition, and the
>Saducees who dominated the Sanhedrin didn't want trouble with the Romans.
>The fact that Jesus had just led a riot in their temple wouldn't have endeared
>him to the Saducees either. 

I guess we all have our brand of "nonsense"... :)

> 
>The gospels' depiction of Pilate is a joke. We know from Josephus and other
>sources that Pilatus was a ruthless bastard. He oppressed the jewish people
>mercilessly and showed no signs of sympathy or compassion. The prefecture of
>Judea was simply a political stepping stone as far as he was concerned. 
>The emperor couldn't give a fig what Pilatus did, as he was sunbaking with
>his little catamites on the Isle of Capri and the running of the empire was
>in the hands of the despotic Sejanus: a good friend of guess who? That's
>right, Pontius Pilatus. So the (supposed) threats of the jewish leaders 
>depicted in the gospels would not have bothered Pilatus at all.

So let me see now, from the historian Josephus, we know that
Pilate was a "ruthless bastard".  From that we conclude that the
Gosepls are all incorrect, and that Pilate had a reason for
killing Jesus while the Sanhedrin did not.  Does really this seem
reasonable to you? 

>> Yes, that is my awareness that only the Romans had the
>> jurisdiction over capital cases.  That is the legal part of it.
>> The other part is that the Sanhedrin was able to use the Roman's
>> jurisdiction over capital cases to further their end, the
>> elimination of Jesus.  They frightened Pilate into having Jesus
>> executed by threatening to go over his head to Caesar.  I guess
>> in Pilate's eyes, one more man dead so that he might not look bad
>> back home was worth it.
>
>There is actually very good evidence that the Sanhedrin had jurisdiction over
>capital cases of a religious nature. If Yeshua's crime was blasphemy, as the 

What good evidence do you have for this?

>
>
>> If it is only to place blame
>> off the Jewish people, then I agree with your goal since blame for
>> the death of Christ is shared universally, and one people should
>> not be made the scapegoat.
>
>That's not what the Gospel of John says! 'On our heads and on our children's'
>are the words used. 

Again you seem to only see what you want to see.  That quote (from
Matthew) does not supercede Jesus's plea to the Father of "Father
forgive them for they know not what they do". It would seem to me
that for someone to place blame on an entire race for all time
would dare to do something that Jesus himself did not do. 

>
>> But I disagree with your method of
>> "rewriting" history or the Gospels to further your aim.
>
>History is always being re-written, it's called analysis and interpretation.
>No-one's re-writing the gospels, we're just putting them in their place
>as unreliable historical sources because of their demonstrable biases.

Tim, after we've had this conversation, I must say that *your* bias is
peeking through you thoughts... ::

>
>Tim O'Neill

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