From: ataylor@nmsu.edu (Nosy)
Subject: Re: A Means To Help Keep Change In Check
Followup-To: talk.politics.guns
Organization: NMSU Computer Science
	<1e17okINNagt@agate.berkeley.edu>
	<MCCARTY.92Nov18203808@aphid.add.itg.ti.com>
	<1992Nov19.185445.22510@igor.tamri.com>
	<MCCARTY.92Nov19184331@aphid.add.itg.ti.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 21:56:19 GMT

<In article <MCCARTY.92Nov19184331@aphid.add.itg.ti.com> mccarty@add.itg.ti.com (Rick McCarty) writes:
<>   Example that point to other countries are irrelevant.  Switzerland has a
<>   higher gun ownership rate than the US, yet their crime rate is a tiny
<>   fraction of ours.  Mexico has togher gun laws than we do and their crime
<>   rate is HIGHER than ours.

<   I think it's a combination of mindset and accessibility that make guns
<   such a problem in this country.  

	What problem? The USE of firearms or MISUSE of firearms?

<Our image (at least mine) of the gun is
<rooted greatly in the old west with the good guys against the bad
<guys and the only thing in between them was a gun.  

	Things haven't changed much, in some respects. 

<Combine the gunslinger
<mindset with easy access

	"Easy access" varies quite widely across the US; "easy
	access" in Texas means filling out the Federal form
	and paying for the firearm. "Easy access" in many
	Northeastern states means applying for a permit to
	own a firearm, waiting several months, asking what
	happened to the application, waiting some more....

< and you get a society full of guns.  We'll just
<have to disagree on it, but I find that situation to be inherently
<unsafe and inconsistent with the needs of today's society.  This isn't the
<   old west anymore.  We must alter our mindset about guns.

	It would certainly be useful to alter the "mindset" about
	guns.

	For example, if some people's mindset were changed, they
	wouldn't talk about the "gun problem" but about the "crime
	problem".

<   It is relevant to look at other countries.  OK, let's agree that some
<   countries have higher gun ownership than the US (what type of weapons by
<   the way? - that would seem important as well).  

	Switzerland has handguns, rifles, shotguns and fully automatic
	firearms held by civilians; their rate of violent crime is
	much lower than the US.

<These countries don't
<   hold the same societal view of the gun that we do.

	The "societal view of the gun" depends on what part of
	society one is in, in the US.

[...]

<   I guess I'm in that minority of folks who don't feel too comfortable with
<   the knowledge that John Q. Public might be packing.  

	Given that it is illegal in Texas for anyone who is not
	a police officer to carry a firearm (except when hunting),
	what's the problem?

	Oh, you mean some people break that law...gee, do they
	break other laws? How about making it against the law
	to break the law?

<There are lots of
<incidents where someone with a clean record got pissed off, went off the
<deep end, reached into the drawer and shot someone.


	Citations, please?

	A study in Detroit showed that domestic killings happened
	most often at homes where the police had been called
	at least THREE times previously to deal with "domestic
	disturbances"; it is a myth that Joe or Jane Blow
	just "snap" one day and start killing.

< >   The gun accident death rate in the 70s was about 2400/year; in 1990 it
< >   was down to 1200.  While I think that those deaths are tragedies, I don't
< >   think the rate is high enough to warrant further legislation.

<   I agree about the gun accident rate.  However, that was only one of the
<   causes I listed, and the least frequent.  Suicides and homicides among
<   friends and family account for the greatest numbers.

	I doubt it. I suspect that "homicides where killer was KNOWN
	by victim" are the greatest numbers.

	Note that this category includes drug deals gone sour, 
	"turf wars" by gang members, abusive spouses killed in
	self defense, granny-ladies killed by neighborhood thugs
	and many other such cases.

<   >   I don't think suicides are relevant to the discussion of gun control.

<   Sure they are.  Killing yourself with a gun is a lot surer and more
<   dramatic than other methods - I think you'd find accessibility plays a
<   significant role.

	Citation, please? Guns are prohibited in Japan, yet their
	suicide rate is much higher than the US; as long as tall
	buildings, sharp edges, cars in garages and ropes exist,
	there will be very sure and dramatic methods of suicide.
	
	It can be argued that those who desire suicide *will*
	find a way, whether firearms are available or not.

<>   Did Time also say how many of those friends/family members obtained
<>   their guns legally?  Because something like 85% of such murders are
<>   committed by people with previous felony records who couldn't have obtained
<>   a gun legally anyway!  But then Time has told gun owners who've written
<>   in that the time for a balanced discussion of the issue is over, so I
<>   don't expect professional objectivity from them...

<So?  For the sake of argument, let's assume your statistic is correct.  You've
<made my point for me.  It's TOO EASY to get hold of a handgun in this
< country - if a felon can walk into a shop and buy one, we're in deep trouble.
 
	Hardly; reread the above text. 85% of felons do NOT obtain
	their firearms from gun stores. 

	Furthermore, in Murder Capital USA, Washington, DC, it is
	impossible for anyone who isn't a police officer to buy
	a handgun at all.

<Even if by making it harder we only can prevent 10 or 15 percent of that 85%
<from obtaining one, lives will be saved.

	Criminalizing millions of Americans to possibly save "just
	one life" is hardly a liberal idea....it's the kind of 
	thinking that lead to Prohibition of alcohol; a prohibition
	of guns would work just about as well.

<   >   Sorry Rick but the question is moot.  there is no possible way that all
<   >   the privately owned handguns could be removed from society.  None.
<   >   Live with it...

<   I hold no illusion that all privately owned handguns can be removed.
<   But I do think we can do a lot better than we are.

	Define "we", please?

<   >   I take it you don't live in LA or Florida...

<   I used to live in both places.

	Huh. LA has a 15-day waiting period and background
	check....unless one is a rioter.

	Works real well, now doesn't it?
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