From: francis@DADD.TI.COM (Francis Ngoh)
Subject: Re: My name in Kanji and more
Reply-To: NIHONGO@mitvma.mit.edu
Organization: The Internet
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 18:21:36 GMT

	From NIHONGO@mitvma.mit.edu Tue Aug 25 12:28:33 1992
	>"Wm. Douglas Withers -- writes
	Subject:      Re: My name in Kanji and more

>	I have done this, studying both Japanese and Chinese for the last fifteen
>	years or so.  My knowledge of Japanese has always been superior to that of
>	Chinese.  There is no doubt that familiarity with Japanese is a great asset
>	in trying to learn Chinese.  However, you should not expect Chinese to come
>	merely as a side effect of learning Japanese.  The following points come to
>	mind:
>
>	1.  Chinese pronunciation is quite different from Japanese, and I think
>	generally more difficult for native English speakers.  However, given
>	the limited range of syllables appearing in Chinese, you can master this
>	at the beginning and not worry about it thereafter.
>
>	2.  Many kanji can appear in three different forms (and occasionally more):
>	one traditional form, still used in Taiwan, a simplified form used in Japan,
>	and another simplified form used in mainland China.
>
>	3.  The modern Chinese pronunciation of a character and the Japanese `On'
>	pronunciation often appear at first glance to be completely unrelated.
>	For example, the `kyo' of `Tokyo' is pronounced `jing' in Chinese. However,
>	there are underlying regularities which facilitate learning the Chinese
>	pronunciation.
>
>	4.  Chinese word usage is often different from that in Japan.  For example,
>	the characters for `kisha' ((steam) train) in Japanese are used in China
>	to mean `automobile'.
>
>	5.  Chinese grammar, while not terribly difficult, is not trivial to learn
>	either.  There are some similarities of spirit between the two languages.
>	For example, neither language uses relative pronouns.
>
>	Good luck.
>
Actually, there's no such animal as "Chinese" pronunciation. The Chinese
 language consists of
numerous dialects of which the official one is Mandarin. This is what Mr.
 Withers refers
to as the "modern Chinese pronunciation" which is often different from Japanese
 OnYomi. I think
it's different because Mandarin is a newer language compared to the older
 southern languages
and also because the northern languages/dialects (of which Mandarin is one) have
 sounds emanating
from deep within the mouth and involves harder tongue calisthenics :). The other
 theory I heard is
that one of the larger migrations of Chinese people to Japan (during Chin
 dynasty ie. Great Wall of China
fame) are from the southern provinces, presumably Fujian or Hokkien province. If
 you listen to the words
close enough, taking into account the limited Japanese pronunciation range due
 to it's syllabary, it
makes sense. e.g. counting from one to ten :
Nihongo : Ichi   Ni   San   Shi   Go   Roku   Shichi   Hachi   Ku   To
Hokkien : Jit    Nng  Sa    See   Go   Luck    Cit     Pweh    Kau  chap
Hakka   : It     Ni   San   See   Mmm  Liu     Chit    Peh     Keu  Sup
Mandarin : Yi    Er   San   Shih  Wu   Liu     Chi     Pa      Chiu Shi
 (Pardon my romanizations )
Another example. MonDai (question/problem), in Mandarin is Wen Ti, which is
 completely
different. But the Cantonese pronunciation is Mun Tai, which is close enough to
 make a
good guess.
So actually, but not the extent that I would prefer, knowing Chinese ie.
as much dialect as possible, does help Japanese study.
Newsgroups: sci.lang.japan