From: muffy@mica.berkeley.EDU (Muffy Barkocy)
Subject: Re: Vintage Ann Landers ... and thought experiments.
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: Natural Language Incorporated
Date: 30 Sep 92 17:26:53 GMT
	<3SEP199214023412@vaxa.weeg.uiowa.edu>

In article <3SEP199214023412@vaxa.weeg.uiowa.edu> sklautky@vaxa.weeg.uiowa.edu (Stephen Klautky) writes:
>In article <182vqtINN5pn@agate.berkeley.edu>
>levine@symcom.math.uiuc.edu (Lenore Levine) writes:

>[Ann Landers column deleted]
>>This column illustrates the way women were traditionally brought up
>>to act as social police of other women; to penalize nonstandard
>>appearance, lifestyle choices or behavior in their female
>>counterparts.

>>My question is: To what extent do you think this sort of behavior
>>occurs today, among contemporary women with feminist sensibilities?

>of women I know with "feminist sensibilities".  The women I will talk
>about below have had discussions with me that make their interest in
>advancing the lot of women clear (both career-wise and socially).
>They consider themselves feminists.
[Stephen gives three examples.]

>From time to time I have asked directly where these characterizations
>come from and if they are not antithetical to a feminist program.
>Sometimes one will agree with me, reluctantly.  Usually this question
>is ignored and other times I get "*sigh* you are not letting us have
>any fun".

>Is it just fun?  Or is it a pattern that keeps women and men "in their
>place."  Where have I heard this before?

No, it is not just fun.  It is, as you say, a pattern that attempts to
keep people in their place.  There are also feminists who use the same
sort of behavior to enforce other behaviors, such as not wearing makeup.
I would say that this is not at all limited to feminists; I think it is
a type of behavior we all learn - how to criticize others for not
"fitting in" in one way or another.  So, even though a person becomes a
feminist, this pattern might well still be part of their behavior.

Their reaction when you question it suggests that they have not really
thought about it and, perhaps, would rather not.  This is another common
behavior of people - not wanting to deal with conflicts between beliefs
and actions.

>If you believe my subjective interpretation of the above situations do
>these women still qualify as feminists?

Certainly.  If, as you say above, they are interested in improving the
situation of women, etc., then they sound like feminists (although, of
course, it really depends on what definition you use - by some
definitions, I would not be a feminist, but I certainly consider myself
one...*smile*).

>Do not take this post to mean that I expect feminists to be perfect
>torch bearers for equality or to have all the answers.

That's good, because they probably won't be.  Feminists are people, so
they can have all the problems and failings that any person can have.

>I think it is
>more important to talk about these sorts of things as they come up so
>we can learn from them.  But how am I to address these questions when
>my credibility is handicapped, in their eyes, by my gender?

It *is* important to talk about them, and it is good that you bring them
up.  If they refuse to think about them, I don't know what you can do,
though.  As far as being handicapped by your gender, that is nonsense.
Tell them that they should consider your questions *anyway*, especially
if they are against discrimination on the basis of sex...*grin*.

Muffy
--

Muffy Barkocy                               muffy@mica.berkeley.edu
~Little round planet/in a big universe/sometimes it looks blessed/
 sometimes it looks cursed/Depends on what you look at, obviously/
 But even more it depends on the way that you see~ - Bruce Cockburn


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