From: tracy@scoraz.resp-sci.arizona.edu (Tracy Scheinkman)
Newsgroups: rec.equestrian
Subject: re: Arabians
Date: 15 Dec 92 09:19:02 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Arizona, Tucson, AZ


>> : I just want to make one point, bay is NOT an exotic color in Arabians.  For
>> : many years the majority of Arabians in this country were grey, mostly because
>> : the early imports were mostly grey.  Now there are many bay, chestnut, and
>> : black Arabians.  My mare Quality is chestnut, her sire was bay, her dam was
>> : flea-bit grey.  She also has a half-sister who is bay, out of the same dam.
>> 
>> just for clarification:
>>  
>> I was under the assumption that Sha Hameer was an exotic color of bay, not
>> that bay was an exotic color.  Grey tends to be tha predominant color because
>> tha gene which causes greying is dominant.  I was wondering if Shah Hameer
>> might be exotic because of the beginning of a color change--rose greys
>> can look really neat during the beginning stages of the bay-grey change.
>> 
>> Karen
>> 
>
>Bay is bay.  There are no exotic colors of bay.   Bay is red, brown or dark
>brown with black mane and tail.  While in some breeds, buckskin is considered
>a different color, genetically it is just a yellow bay.   One thing you must
>consider, if Shah Hameer is changing color then he is NOT a bay, he is most
>likely a grey and that means if he is registered a bay, his papers are in
>error and must be corrected.  The Arabian registry is really fussy about
>things like that!  If you take him to a show and his papers don't match his
>description, you can be refused entry into a class.  I'm not entirely sure,
>but I think the show committee might even be able to report you to the
>registry who can yank his registration.

>Sue

	I think we may be getting way off base of what the initial poster
asked but  here goes ...  I may need to repost the info about horse colors
to clarify this, I'll think about doing that tomorrow.  First, buckskin is
not genetically the same as bay, it is a dilution of the red pigment phaeo-
melanin to yellow that is caused by the cremello gene that causes buckskin.
In order to be bay the horse must have two dominant C 'fully pigmented'
genes. If you take that bay horse and breed it to a perlino or cremello
which have two c-cr 'diluted pigment' genes, then the result will likely be 
either a buckskin which is the Cc-cr version of a bay or a palomino which is 
the Cc-cr version of chestnut.  However (the exception proves the rule, 
right?) in Arabians there are exotic bay and chestnut horses who resemble 
buckskins and palominos despite the fact that they are genetically bay and 
chestnut, in other words they are CC horses, they do not carry the c-cr 
dilution gene, these are however exceptions only for the Arabian.
	Next, it is possible the original poster mistook bay for chestnut
with flaxen mane and tail, this does occassionally happen among beginners.
Or this poster may have a late-greying horse that has turned that lovely
shade of blood bay that had people up until this year looking at Mithril
and saying to me, "Are you sure she is going to turn grey?  She sure looks
bay to me!"  However another possibility that has been documented amongst
Arabians is that of a horse who is bay yet has a white tail!  Such cases
are very rare, I believe that it is the action of the gene Rb which is
the rabicano gene.  The rabicano gene usually just gives the horse a white
dock, but it may affect most of the tail in special cases.
	Finally don't go scaring the poor person into thinking that a color
change is a terrible problem, it shouldn't be.  The Registry has forms for
these things and the fees are not expensive.  I believe they require a photo
and some kind of explanation, and some proof that the horse is the correct one,
usually markings or ownership records, and that's that, it happens all the
time.  Also without seeing a photo of this horse I wouldn't be sure that a
change of color is necessary at all.

					Tracy and everybody