HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: IMAGING.CLUB@OFFICE.WANG.COM ("Imaging Club")
Subject: Re: Closeness of the Nordic Languages
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 17:42:21 GMT

Edmund Joseph Ryan writes:

>Are Norwegian, Danish, and Swedish similar to the extent that
>a speaker of one could get by with the other two?

I've noticed that here in the Boston area Norwegian and Swedish
au pair girls usually speak English with each other.  I think
the Norwegians and Danes here speak their native languges with
each other.  The Faero Island au pairs here speak Danish
with people from Norway and Denmark, but English with the Swedes,
I understand.

Icelandic people here speak Danish with the others, except with
the Swedes, from what I have been told.  I'm not sure what people
from the Faeroe Islands would speak to people from Iceland, but I
presume it would be Danish which they study in school.

I'll forward this on to our global language adaption centre for
possible further comments.

Michael.Willett@OFFICE.Wang.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: d89-jsp@nada.kth.se (Jan Sparrendahl)
Subject: Re: The Samii languages (are Nordic!)
Organization: Royal Institute of Technology, Stockholm, Sweden
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 11:18:50 GMT

In article <1993Jan7.061732.9981@jyu.fi>, ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:

|> Which language is a nordic language if not saami! They were those
|> who first settled down in Scandinavia.

	Due to a bug in my kill-file it seems that I still have to put up 
	with that ryyti thing. Nevertheless the theory of samis a some sort of
	scandinavian indians is abandoned. I do not quite remember but 
	I think the samis came from far karelia quite recently.(still BC though) 
	They are, of cource, not disrespected in any way whatever ryyti may say.
	
	As for whats a nordic laguage I thought the nordic languages were 
	those of the north-germanic branch of the i.u. laguage tree.


		

		faeroeic
		icelandic   danish
		norwegian   swedish
		|            |
		|            |
                west        east     english 
		|            |       german              west gothic
		|____________|       & many more         east gothic
		|                     |                   |
		nordic               west                east
		|_____________________|___________________|
		|
		gremanic	
		|             other subrees	
		|______________|___|_____|
		|
		i.u.

	Any error is due to my ignorance.


								Arthur
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi
Subject: Re: The Samii languages (are Nordic!)
Organization: University of Helsinki
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 11:47:28 GMT


In article <1993Jan7.061732.9981@jyu.fi>, ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti) writes:

> I think that even The Republic of Karelia should be admitted into the
> Nordic Council. 

The Republic of Karelia is no sovereign state (despite of the fact that
it has declared itself "sovereign" which means next to nothing in
post-soviet conditions) because it is no accepted member of international
community (like UN or CSCE).

The Republic has not shown any interest to apply for Nordic Council
membership as far as I know. It would be very unlikely - it has
different kind of cultural traditions.


> Estonia should be a member already now, but unfortunatelly
> the swedes and the norwegians were against when it is was proposed in
> previous meeting. The finns and the danes supported their apply.


I don't share your dislike against Swedes and Swedish, but here I must
confess that I agree with you in this respect! Norwegians and Danes used
arguments against Estonia that could exclude even Finland from Nordic
Council, when adapted to us.

Did Danes support Estonian membership? Hvis det aer saa, mange takk!


> Why the swedes and norwegian reperesentants were against Estonia is for 
> me unclear. Do they support an idea of "a club of better people" or why?


I don't share your ressentment. But still, the ultimate reasons for
rejection are not clear to me, either!


with best regards
A Nordic non-Indoeuropean Baltic Finn
Tapani Hietaniemi, Universitas Helsingiensis
                   urbs fennorum

Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi
Subject: Re: The Samii languages (are Nordic!)
Organization: University of Helsinki
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 11:59:24 GMT

In article <1ih31sINNd7j@bHARs12c.bnr.co.uk>, sizex@bnr.co.uk (Eric Barber) 
writes:

> interestingly, at least some people in the department of scandinavian
> studies at university college london regard finnish as a scandinavian
> language even though it's taught at the department of east european
> studies at ucl!

Usually, this kind of definitions made inside one university are matters
of convenience. And the great nations do not care about our cultural
identity problems.

Anothor question is, whether Finland should be included in "Eastern
European studies". According to common definition, Finland belongs
to "Western Europe" (Christianity, parliamentary democracy and market economy)
but is still situated in Eastern Europe (at least we have the Eastern European
time).

I am inclined to think that I live in North-Eastern Europe :-)

with best regards
A Nordic non-Indoeuropean Baltic Finn (of Eastern Baltic race :-)
Tapani Hietaniemi, Universitas Helsingiensis
                   urbs fennorum

Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: hberg@polisci.umn.edu (Bob Hammarberg)
Subject: Re: Closeness of the Nordic Languages
Organization: Department of Political Science, University of Minnesota
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 15:03:42 GMT

In article <STEINARB.93Jan7190633@villtind.idt.unit.no> steinarb@idt.unit.no (Steinar Bang) writes:

>The problems with written Swedish is a slightly off vocabulary and the
>strange spelling rules they've got ("ck" instead of "kk", "d" instead
>of "f", etc. ...).

"d" instead of "f"????  Example, please!

Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: IMAGING.CLUB@OFFICE.WANG.COM ("Imaging Club")
Subject: Nordic companies
Organization: Mail to News Gateway at Wang Labs
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 17:49:40 GMT

Those GPI AS Norway stories about Nordic companies are on
biz.comp.software.

Michael.Willett@OFFICE.Wang.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: tknudsen@ics.uci.edu (Trond Knudsen)
Subject: Re: The Samii languages (are Nordic!)
Keywords: Samii, Nordic
Reply-To: tknudsen@ics.uci.edu (Trond Knudsen)
Organization: Univ. of Calif., Irvine, Info. & Computer Sci. Dept.
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 00:05:08 GMT

In article <1993Jan2.152736.1@cc.helsinki.fi> thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi 
writes:
>
>I suppose you mean that Samii (Saami? Samish?) is not related to Scandinavian
>languages. Of course it is a Nordic language like Finnish (See the Nordic
>language convention: Nordisk spraakkonvention).
>
>with best regards
>a Nordic non-Indoeuropean Baltic Finn
>Tapani Hietaniemi, Universitas Helsingiensis
>                   urbs fennorum

Sure, I'm sorry! Samii is not a indo european and germanic language,
not Scandinavian, but of course Nordic!
-- 
Trond Knudsen
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi
Subject: Re: The Samii languages (are Nordic!)
Organization: University of Helsinki
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1993 17:27:42 GMT

In article <hberg.293@polisci.umn.edu>, hberg@polisci.umn.edu (Bob Hammarberg) 
writes:
> In article <1993Jan8.133119.1@cc.helsinki.fi> thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi 
writes:
> 
> 
>>According to my opinion:
> 
>>(1) "Nordic" is a political concept <=> Refers to Nordic countries that
>>form the Nordic council.
> 
>>(2) Scandinavian is a geographic (Scandinavian peninsula) and linguistic
>>concept (the Scandinavian tongues).
> 
>>(3) Nordic denotes some "cultural togetherness" which is hard to define
>>"objectively" but for example former parts of Swedish kingdom like
>>Finland and Estonia share this common identity.
> 
>>Which the Estonians clearly demonstrated when the re-established the
>>statue of Gustav II Adolf in Tartu/Dorpat and the Finns did the same
>>in Turku/Aabo.
> 
> Swedish Pomerania was part of the Swedish kingdom longer and later than 
> Estonia, wasn't it?  Does that make it Nordic, too?


If they had a feeling of some kind of togetherness, this would
not be ruled out totally.

 
> As for Estonia, I can't see how erecting a statue can establish 
> "Nordicness".  Does the Lenin bust on the Art Museum hill in ]bo make 
> Finland a Soviet country?


No.

 
> As for Estonia's "Nordicness" (under any definition):  Estonia was always 
> far more Baltic-German than Swedish in character.  They  had serfdom until 
> mid 19th century, and have had no real experience with democracy (don't tell 
> me P{ts was a democrat!).  


I am not calling P{ts a democrat. But the later thirties were a time of
considerable democracy. There were some "democracy deficits" in Finland, which 
still does not make Finland un-Nordic.


> Realistically,  Estonia's "Swedishness" must be 
> seen as a "good old days" fantasy.


I am not calling Estonia Swedish but it's Estonians that would like to be 
accepted "Nordic".

 
> Jarmo, our house-fascist, of course views these matters in terms of Blut und 
> Boden, we don't have to take him seriously, do we?


Of course not.


with best regards
Tapani Hietaniemi

Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: JMARTTILA@FINABO.ABO.FI (Fast-Eddie Felson)
Subject: Re: Is Estonia "Nordic"? (Was: The Samii languages....)
Organization: Turku School of Economics
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 00:39:30 GMT
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.24

In <hberg.297@polisci.umn.edu> hberg@polisci.umn.edu writes:
> But let's get back to the original point:  There are no empirical criteria
> for determining "Nordicness", hence any argument as to whether Estonia is a 
> Nordic country or not, is meaningless.  The NC is a purely political 
> organization, like the UN, and membership is determined by political 
> considerations, not by examining a given country for signs of "Nordicness".
> Can we agree on that?

I don't agree.  There's very little sence in forming groups, if there are 
no common interests that the group would work for.  The similarity of the 
Nordic countries make their interests common which leads to the fact that 
co-operation can be successful.
There could be  common interests  between Finland  and  Madagascar, which 
could lead to a successful co-operation too, but there just happens to be 
none.  Between  Finland  and  Sweden there are  common interests  (Common 
history, geography, similar economy and industry,  standard of living...) 
and these countries  see it better  to unite  rather than to compete with 
eachother.  This is  how it works  between the other  Nordic countries as 
well.
It's a fact  that there are no exact qualifications for a Nordic country, 
but some countries still are more Nordic  than others.  You don't need to 
be able  to put it  in cold numbers  to make the difference.  Politicians
draw the lines between Nordic and non-Nordic, but the can't make a prince 
of a frog.
Estonia is ethnically close to Finland  (the true Estonians at least) and 
language is similar and it has partly common history with Finland, Sweden 
and Denmark.  It is also  geographically  close to  the Nordic countries. 
Estonia, however, has a very different economy and industry.  The popula-
tion  is divided in  two ethnic groups  with different interests  and the 
land is undeveloped by the western standards.
There is not too much sence in economical or related unification  between 
Estonia and  the Nordic countries.  Both sides would  benefit  of limited 
political co-operation.  Currently I just can't see how it could work, if 
the co-operation  reached the  internordic extent.  The Nordic  countries
wouldn't gain as much as they give.
 
        JM
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: ryyti@jyu.fi (Jarmo Ryyti)
Subject: Re: The Samii languages (are Nordic!)
Organization: University of Jyvaskyla, Finland
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 06:17:32 GMT

Bob Hammarberg (hberg@polisci.umn.edu) wrote:
: In article <1993Jan5.022409.1@cc.helsinki.fi> thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi writes:
: 
: >Where's the beef?

Which language is a nordic language if not saami! They were those
who first settled down in Scandinavia. It is peculiar that now
those who have come later explain that their language is a nordic
language, not saami. Typical imperialism and colonialism.
The saamis were the first and  their language is a truly nordic
language, the others have come here much later.
: : 
: The beef is that 'Nordic' is not a natural category, and therefore to argue 
: over whether X is Nordic or not is an exercise in futility.  There simply is 
: no matter of empirical fact to be decided there, merely a matter of variable 
: convention.  If Estonia gets admitted to the Nordic Council, then suddenly 
: it has become Nordic, but there are no criteria that you can apply, at this 
: time, to demonstrate that it is Nordic and therefore should be admitted to 
: the Council.  If the Vatican, Somalia, and New Zealand get admitted to the 
: Council, then they too would be Nordic, right?

I think that even The Republic of Karelia should be admitted into the
Nordic Council. Estonia should be a member already now, but unfortunatelly
the swedes and the norwegians were against when it is was proposed in
previous meeting. The finns and the danes supported their apply.
Why the swedes and norwegian reperesentants were against Estonia is for 
me unclear. Do they support an idea of "a club of better people" or why?
regards,
jarmo ryyti

Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: thietaniemi@cc.helsinki.fi
Subject: Re: Is Estonia "Nordic"? 
Organization: University of Helsinki
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 11:44:23 GMT

In article <JANERIC.93Jan12102457@bellman.control.lth.se>, janeric@control.
lth.se (Jan Eric Larsson) writes:
> 
> 
> Fast-Eddie Felson writes:
> 
>>There is not too much sence in economical or related unification  between 
>>Estonia and  the Nordic countries.  Both sides would  benefit  of limited 
>>political co-operation.  Currently I just can't see how it could work, if 
>>the co-operation  reached the  internordic extent.  The Nordic  countries
>>wouldn't gain as much as they give.
> 
> I think you are wrong. Of course the borders of Estonia cannot be
> opened to the Nordic countries immediately, but I think that the
> Nordic countries should do as much as possible to help Estonia join
> Norden and "Europe". In economical terms it will be costly, but that
> should be weighed against the political and cultural values gained.


Even the borders could be opened immediately. The existing visa requirements
do not hinder the criminality crossing the Gulf of Finland. It's common
knowledge that exactly the criminals are manipulating the queuing system with
bribes and threats: actually the existing system relatively benefits the 
criminals!

I can see no excuse for not dropping the visa system. Visa-free entry
for Estonian citizens that possess new Estonian passports, not for persons
having Soviet (Estonian) passports! Crossing the Gulf of Finland should be
made as smooth as possible. Still, currently most of Estonians can't afford
the journey. But free travel would benefit the Estonian economy and turism
and promote trade and industry. Gradually, the bulk of Estonians could
afford to visit the Nordic countries.


Tapani Hietaniemi, Universitas Helsingiensis
                   urbs fennorum

Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: torkel@sics.se (Torkel Franzen)
Subject: Re: Inauguration question
Organization: Swedish Institute of Computer Science, Kista
Distribution: soc
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 11:44:02 GMT

In article <etxmow.726749700@garboc29> etxmow@garboc29.ericsson.se 
(Mats Winberg) writes:

      >If the incumbent wins the presidential election is there still
      >an inauguration ceremony, or is it skipped because he/she has already
      >taken the oath once?  And what about the two term limit? Is it
      >two terms altogether or two terms in a row that is the limit?

  Does this question refer to Finland or to Iceland?
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic
From: mikak@microsoft.com (Mike Kortelainen)
Subject: Re: Closeness of the Nordic Languages
Date: 11 Jan 93 20:16:10 GMT
Organization: Microsoft Corp.
Distribution: usa

Somebody asked:

>> Are Norwegian, Danish, and Swedish similar to the extent that
>> a speaker of one could get by with the other two?

Well, at least here at MS Ireland all the Swedes, Norwegians and
Danes speak their respective languages to each other, and seem
to have no problems whatsoever understanding each other.
(unlike us poor Finns, who never bothered to learn Swedish well
enough... <sigh> Thank God there's always English)

	--Mika

*************************************************************************
*Mika Kortelainen                                     mikak@microsof.com*
*Microsoft WPG Ireland                                                  *
*************************************************************************
*A polar Finnish bear hunter stranded in Ireland, a country with no...  *
*...polar bears, how did you guess?!                                    *
*************************************************************************
*I've a deal with my employer, we don't speak for each other            *
*************************************************************************
Newsgroups: soc.culture.spain
From: elinbs@admin.uio.no (Elin B. Stokstad)
Subject: DESPERATELY SEEKING: HEROES DEL SILENCIO
Followup-To: soc.culture.spain
Organization: University of Oslo, Norway
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 19:35:38 GMT

Can anyone help me?
Ive been trying to get hold of the HEROES DEL SILENCIO-concert
which was sent on SUPER CHANNEL (Absolutely live), Saturday 3. October and
Sunday 4. October last year.
Ill pay $75 to he/she who can get me a VHS-copy of this concert.

Id also like to get hold of Heroes live-LP "Senda 91".
(Did they not also produce a mini-LP before signing with EMI??)


Anything else anybodys got concerning Heroes, might be of interest to me!


-------------------------------------------
Elin B. Stokstad
e-mail: elinbs@admin.uio.no
adr: Universitetet i Oslo, Univ.dir.kontor, PB 1072, N-0316 Oslo, NORWAY
tlf: 22 85 62 31
Newsgroups: soc.culture.spain
From: rivas@fraser.sfu.ca (Jorge David Rivas)
Subject: Re: vaya apalanque!
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 08:47:50 GMT

In article <1993Jan10.164322.3245@leland.Stanford.EDU> delval@scottie.Stanford.EDU (Alvaro DelVal) writes:
>Un dato curioso: al parecer, la edad media en Espana para que los
>hijos se independicen de los padres economicamente y vivan por su
>cuenta es TREINTA anos. Asi que me imagino que por cada uno que se va
>a los 20, hay uno al que su madre le cocina y le lava los trapos hasta
>los 40.  Como decia uno: "vive de tus padres hasta que puedas vivir de
>tus hijos".
>
>Como comparacion, me decia una amiga finlandesa que alli esta muy mal
>visto socialmente si no vives independientemente despues de los 18.
>
>Alvaro
>

Tienes razon Alvaro, pero recuerda que los paises mediterraneos son muy diferen-
tes (economicamente y socialmente) del resto. En otros paises se fomenta el
trabajo part-time, enfocado hacia la juventud ==> dinero=independencia.
Socialmente la familia no es tan homogenea como en Espa~a y , como el dicho
popular dice :"Vive de tus padres..." la parte final no se puede aplicar a los
paises norte~os. Alli, cuando te vuelves viejo lo mas normal es que te metan
en algun sitio para la tercera edad o si puedes te mudas al sur a alguna de esas
urbanizaciones para ancianos.
Sin embargo en Espa~a lo normal (que yo recuerde) es que los padres vivan con
algun hijo o hija hasta que mueren o su condicion fisica o mental requiere
internamiento.

Hoy en dia ,como tu dices, la media es de 30 a~os, y me parece injusto que mu-
chos, despues de chupar tanto de sus padres, les den una patada en el culo
cuando se vuelven viejos (supongo qu eintentando copiar las ideas modernas).

Yo desde luego creo que es mejor independizarse cuanto antes mejor. Yo me vine
a estudiar aqui a los 19 y desde entonces he vivido por mi cuenta, pagandome todo de mi propio bolsillo (mi padre solo me pago el billete de ida). De vez en cuando, pienso en todos mis compaa~eros de colegio, todavia viviendo con sus padres y sin ocasion de
experimentar "true freedom". Sin embargo, se que muchos de ellos ayudan a pagar
la renta o aportan dinero para comprar comida y tal. A veces les envidio pero
no se...
-- 
 jorge david rivas (rivas@sfu.ca)    __@ !!  /  "It has taken mankind a million
  undergrad (Math & Stats)         _(\<,_   /  years to alter irreversibly the
SIMON FRASER UNIV, BC. CANADA     (X)/ (X) / planet, something whales could not
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ do in ten times as long"  :(
Newsgroups: soc.culture.spain
From: obrienj@cc.gatech.edu (James F. O'Brien)
Subject: Teachiong job info needed
Keywords: job teacher education spanish
Organization: College of Computing, Georgia Tech
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 02:45:08 GMT

Hello, 

  I have a friend who will be finishing her Degree in Education (Spanish Lang,
w/ minor in English).  She is interested in getting a teaching job in the
Atlanta area.

  If you have an information, about jobs, or other related opportunities,
could you please forward them to me? (obrienj@cc.gatech.edu)

  Thank you very much,


  ___                         __  o   __
 (   )                       / ') '  /  )
  __/___. ____   _  _       /  /    /--<  __  o _  __
 / / (_(_/) ) )_(<_/_)_    (__/    /___/_/ (_(_(<_/) )_
(_/
           James F. O'Brien
           obrienj@cc.gatech.edu


Newsgroups: soc.culture.spain
From: acruz@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Alex Cruz)
Subject: Un par de preguntitas sobre el Internet. A ver quien sabe...
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 15:03:12 GMT



Hola a todos!

Me encuentro en un mini-apuro y me preguntaba si alguien
me podria dar una mano.

Me han encargado que de un seminario sobre el Internet en
la compania y aunque he recopilado bastante material,
todavia me faltan un par de cosas que me interesan:

     - informacion sobre como se pueden acceder algunos
       de los servidores archie atraves de un 'mail-server';
       es decir, para que sea posible hacer indagaciones
       sin tener que utilizar una conexion directa por 'telnet'.

     - el mismo concepto pero en este caso para conseguir
       archivos en maquinas con acceso 'anonymous ftp'.
       Princeton solia tener uno pero no se si esta activo.

     - finalmente, hay por ahi una LIST of LISTS con una lista
       muy completa de listas de correo.

Si alguien me pudiese me podria dar alguna pista, lo agradeceria
mucho.

Alex

----------------------------------------------
Alex  Cruz, Senior Consultant
American Airlines Decision Technologies
acruz@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
skywalker!smtplink!alex@texsun.Central.Sun.COM
----------------------------------------------
From: IM.COOL@acsc.com, DAMN IT <MULLEN_JOA@CCSUA.CTSTATEU.EDU>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.spain
Subject: Listserv@uacsc.albany.edy
Date: 4 Jan 1993 12:10:50 -0600
Organization: ESPANA-L - soc.culture.spain Gateway
Reply-To: IM.COOL@acsc.com, DAMN IT <MULLEN_JOA@CCSUA.CTSTATEU.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu


Listserv@uacsc.albany.edu.

        Me gustaria subsribirme a esta lista.  Muchas gracias.