From: S_STEEGM@iravcl.ira.uka.de (Joerg Steegmueller)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Maastricht ...encore
Date: 16 Oct 1992 08:53:27 GMT
Organization: University of Karlsruhe (FRG) - Informatik Rechnerabt.
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In <1bimthINNiv@fido.asd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.wpd.sgi.com writes:

> In article <1992Oct14.235256.6834@daimi.aau.dk>, simonl@daimi.aau.dk 
> (Simon Laub) writes:
> |>    Just to make it perfectly clear: The danish govt. is pro
> |> Maastricht. Has supported Maastricht all the way , and is
> |> still a supporter of the Maastricht treaty.
> 
> I think this is a perfect example of how confused your thinking
> about Europe actually is.   The time I am referring to is the
> time when the Maastricht Treaty was being negotiated.   Before
> that time, there *was* no Maastricht Treaty to be for or against.
> 
> The negotiations at Maastricht were the time when each country
> was able to put forward its own proposals for what should go
> into the Treaty.    I am asking why, if the Treaty did not suit
> Denmark, they didn't ask for variations to it during the 
> negotiations, as the UK did.

The big difference between the UK asking for variations and Denmark not asking
for variations is, that the danish govt. didn't want to change anything. The
danish people voted "NO", NOT the govt.! In the UK, the gvt. was opposed to some
parts of the treaty, so naturally they wanted to change it.

> And then, given that they didn't ask for variations, why should
> we make variations now, just because it turns out that the
> Danish Govt. didn't bother to find out what their own voters
> wanted.

Well, I think that's reason enough! The german govt. doesn't give a damm about
the opinion of the people about the treaty and a lot of other govts. don't ask
their voters. But remember "Europe" is nothing without the people feeling
european! An agreement between political leaders doesn't from a unified Europe.
The people have to see and feel a reason for working together.
In Yugoslavia and in the USSR, the whole thing was held together by some
agreements between political instances. Now you see the result!! The people
obviously never felt belonging together. Should we repeat these mistakes in the
western part of Europe??

> |>    John Major is also a great Maastricht fan (despite his 
> |> very recent passionate nationalism).
> 
> More confusion.  Joh Major is *not* an unconditional fan of
> the whole of the Maastricht Treaty, which is why, at the time 
> of the Maastricht negotiations, he went to considerable trouble,
> and took considerable heat, to get concessions which allowed 
> the UK to opt out of certain provisions of the Treaty.   Denmark
> didn't take the trouble to do that.

Again: The danish govt. didn't see a reason to do so, but the dansih people
did.
Thank god, John Major is slowing down the whole process. It forces the other
govt. to think about their plans. The speed is much to high, you can't unify 12
individual states in such a short period of time.
Look at the US, or the UK: The states in the US are kind of unified, but you
will never make someone from Texas feel like someone from Pennsylvania, the
cultur, the way of live is still very different, BUT the language is the same,
so at least you have a chance to talk to the ppl in the other state.
In the UK there are some kind of fightings going on all the time. Scotland,
England and Wales will never be ONE nation, they want to be different, BUT the
langauage is the same.
Now, take Europe: 12 countries with several different langauges have a very
short period of time (UK and USA didn't erase the differences in several
hundred years), how should a unification work if Joe Blop or Lieschen Mueller
don't support it???????

> |> Major has been one of 'the 11 other countries, that will be 
> |> very mad at the danes if they vote no' all along.
> 
> This is completely untrue.   On the day after the Danish vote
> Major specifically said that he repected the Danish right to
> choose, and hoped that at some later date they would find it
> possible to rejoin.

That's perfect. Why do you have to force them into something they don't want.
Give them time enough and then give them a chance to rejoin if they want. But
don't turn around and go on with the stuff you did before, because maybe in
some other countries the ppl aren't too pleased with the treaty as well, even
if the govt. is.


-- Joerg

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Joerg Steegmueller                         |     
University of Karlsruhe, West-Germany      |     Is linn an
phone (voice): +49-6348-7622  18-23hrs  MET|
Internet: s_steegm@iravcl.ira.uka.de       |               todhchai!
IRC: ceoil                                 |             
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