HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Resent-Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Organization: Emory University - Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 09:46:34 EST
Comments:     Resent-From: "SHELBY A. CROSS" <LIBSAC@EMUVM1>
Comments:     Originally-From: "SHELBY A. CROSS" <LIBSAC@EMUVM1>
From:         "SHELBY A. CROSS" <LIBSAC@EMUVM1.BITNET>
Subject:      I'M BACK ON CHRISTIA-SHELBY

I'm posting this message again because I don't think it got through prior
to me posting to have my mail received again on Christia.  I hope I am
right, if not disregard and count my mistakes for love. (Smile)!
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
Dear Christia and Prayer Warriors,

Just a note to tell you all hello again.  It's been a long time but I
finally caught up with my work and can begin posting to my Christia
family now.  Keep praying for my husband Gene, who is still off work
and recuperating.  I have been praying for everyone while I was off
the network and hope everyone is doing well for everyone.  The following
is a little poem that I would like to leave you all with:

PROMISE YOURSELF. . .

To be so strong that nothing can disturb your peace of mind.
To look for the good in everything then work to make your optimism come
  true.
To think only the best, plan only the best, believe only the best, and
  be only the best.
To be just as enthusiastic about the success of others as you are about
  your own.
To forget past mistakes and press on to the greater achievements of
  the future.
To wear a cheerful countenance at all times and give every living
  creature you meet a smile.
To give so much time to the improvement of yourself that you have no
  time to criticize others.
To be too trusting for fear, too noble for anger, too strong for hate,
  and too filled with faith in GOD to worry about tomorrow's trouble.

Author Unknown

Your sister in Christ,

Shelby--
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Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 16:24:30 EST
From:         BENSON@POKVMCR3.VNET.IBM.COM
Subject:      re: civil rights? why?

MICHELE LOFTON <MLOFTON@USMCP6.BITNET> writes:
 >If a homosexual
 >was hired to teach at a public school, validation of
 >homosexuality would not be a part of the curriculum.  They would
 >teach whatever subject they were teaching.

The role of a teacher is much greater than the subject taught.
In a young child's eyes the teacher is a role model.  The values
of a teacher, whether right or wrong, are impressed upon the
child.  Of course I am always trying to impress my values on my
son, too, but it is very confusing for a child to have one set of
values in one setting and another in another setting.  Especially
at a young age.

 >What if you found out
 >that a wonderful teacher at your son's/daughter's school who
 >means the world to your son/daughter is gay?  Would you insist
 >that the teacher be fired even though subject matter taught was
 >algebra or grammar.

I would remove my children from that classroom.  I would not
insist that that teacher be fired.  As a parent I need to
evaluate the situations that my child is in.  It is a risk that I
would not subject my child to.  Yes, there are risks with
heterosexuals as well, and that is why I'll probably either home
school or send my child to a Christian school.  (And yes, there
are risks in a Christian school, too, but I would say that the
risk is far less.)

Michele, for me the bottom line is not what I think about a
particular homosexual person.  I'm sure there are some that I work
and they probably do a wonderful job.  The statements I've made
about particular occupations are mainly due to the nature of the
impact that the person has.  In the case of the teacher, my
children are at what I believe to be an unacceptable risk to
being influenced with a wrong lifestyle.  I pay my school taxes
and I would like to be able to use the public school system
but it seems unlikely that I will.

Mike Benson
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 14:29:11 EST
From:         TQX@CORNELLC.BITNET
Subject:      Two questions

   I have a couple of questions regarding recent posts. First concerning
the "P" word, If God "is not willing that any should perish but that
all should come to repentance", would He contradict himself by
arbitrarily deciding that some should have the opportunity to be
saved and not everyone?
   My second question is about civil rights for gays. Are we doing
these people a favor by granting special accomodations for a self-
destructive life style? I don't think that there can be any arguing
against the fact that on the average gays have a considerably shorter
life expectancy than heterosexuals.
                                             In Christ,
                                             Claude Garner
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X-Subject:      Thought For The Day
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 10:09:41 EST
Comments:     Resent-From: carol nemec <YA67@FERRIS>
Comments:     Originally-From: Dan Galvin <galvin@tamuts.tamu.edu>
Comments:     Warning -- original Sender: tag was TFTD-L@TAMVM1
From:         carol nemec <YA67@FERRIS.BITNET>
Subject:      Thought For The Day

                           In a world where
                       Bad deeds are celebrated
                        And good one relegated
                       To page 49 of the paper,
                When first place goes to push and shove
                  And the cost of things is put above
                      The cost of time together,
                       Isn't it wonderful that,
                          From time to time,
                            The best of us
                          Reach out and touch
                            The rest of us?

                                       -Lois Wyse
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Date:         Fri, 11 Dec 1992 16:20:23 EST
From:         carol nemec <YA67@FERRIS.BITNET>
Subject:      Cool message - answers are coming! "Mix-Master Matt" Simmons

Matt...

When do we get the answers for the Canticles of Christmas??
Just wondering...I'm stumped on one...hope it's the hard one
:-)   :-)   :-)

Carol N
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Wed, 16 Dec 1992 12:34:44 CST
Comments:     Answering received message
From:         MICHELE LOFTON <MLOFTON@USMCP6.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Gay Civil Rights? Why?

> The homosexual community does not need "special rights" because they
> are not discriminated against.

I guess the discrimination they think they've been getting is just
a figment of their imaginations.  The sodomy and other homosexuality
laws in many states of this country were just ugly rumors.  Gays
are not really being fired from their jobs once they've stepped out of
the closet.  Places like Crackerbarrel didn't really say that they
weren't going to hire gays because they didn't have "family values".
Homosexuals that have been killed or put in the hospital were
accidentally hit with baseball bats and other items by a group of
people or the gays were participating in a game with the group and
didn't know about it.  Words like "fag" or "dyke" are just cute
nicknames, not slurs.  We kind, understanding, upstanding, Christian,
straights NEVER look at them differently or think of them any different
than us sinners (which we all are).

Now all we have to do is sit all of "those people" down and explain
this to them and they'll forget all about this "civil rights
business".

Michele Lofton <MLOFTON@USMCP6.BITNET>
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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 14:39:01 EST
From:         TQX@CORNELLC.BITNET
Subject:      St Luke

   I just saw a request on our department list asking if anyone knew
the cause for which St. Luke is the patron saint. Does anyone out
there have the answer?
                                            Claude
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Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 12:48:29 -0600
Reply-To:     bradk@isdgsm.rtsg.mot.com
From:         Brad Kaiser <bradk%isdgsm@RTSG.MOT.COM>
Subject:      Re: jesse replies on Gospel
              18, 92 11:54:50 am

Jesse Carnes writes, responding to John Woolley,

> >>> John ; be careful of the fallacy of "Argument of the 'Beard'."  We
> obviously agree that Jesus is Divine and thus part of the Trinity.  However,
> they are not all the same person.  The citations imployed by me state that
> the FATHER raised Christ and that the SPIRITraised Him as well.  To destroy
> this grammatical context is to create a monolithic person, rather than a
> three-person Unity.

Far be it from me to destroy any grammatical contexts, but I think it
behooves us to remember that the Father and Son are one [Jn 14:7, 9]
with the Spirit, and that all are coequal in glory and power.  They do
not have three wills but one.  Hence, that which the Father does, the
Son participates in also.  To maintain otherwise is to believe in
three gods, not in one.

It is true that Jesus' human nature was incapable of raising itself, but
His human nature was hypostatically united to His divine nature, which was
and did participate actively in the Resurrection.

> >The truth is more radical even than that.  In some sense, we actually
> >become the divine attributes, we are raised into God's nature:  "That
> >we might be made the righteousness of God in him."
> >>> Here John ; permit me to state that although God BECAME a man, MAN
> did NOT become GOD ;

No.  But through grace, the justified person becomes a partaker of the
divine nature [2 Pt 1:3-4], and the Trinity dwells within him [Jn
14:20-24], that he may live according to the Spirit [Rom 8:9-11].

> I am familiar with the Athanasian Creed, but here we
> are dealing with the Authority of Scripture, which supercedes any supra-
> Scriptural source on that account.

The authority of whose interpretation of Scripture?  It is wrong to
assume that anyone who disagrees with you has simply failed to read or
understand Scripture.  (It would be just as wrong if I assumed that
about you, although I don't.)

> >> This brings in the idea that Christ HAD to earn a Righteousness
> >> for His people, rather than just stay in Heaven and dump, as it were, a
> >> Righteousness INTO us.

The two are in no way exclusive; in fact, they are complementary.  2 Pt 1:3
says that He as bestowed on us *everything* that makes for life and devotion.
1 Jn 2:29 says that everyone who acts in righteousness is begotten of God.

In Christ's Peace,

Brad Kaiser
(bradk%isdgsm@rtsg.mot.com)

          Those who trust in Him shall understand truth,
          and the faithful shall abide with Him in love;
          Because grace and mercy are with His holy ones,
          and His care is with His elect.
                    -- Wis 3:9 [NAB]
From: YST1@DCCCDBIT.BITNET (Yvette Traylor)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Subject: Christmas Sharing
Date: 18 Dec 92 16:06:19 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

> Happy Holidays everyone!  I'm gone for the next two weeks, beginning tomorrow
> (12/18).  Let's use this holiday to remind folks about the One they've kicked
> out of our public schools, the One Who died for their sins to make them right
> with God, the One Who is hated and lives today, the One Whom they have rejecte
> in preference to Santa Claus.
>
This reminds me of something my five year old daughter(Gabrielle), told
me. She said that at school she told them that she didn't believe in
Santa Claus, she believed in Jesus. Jesus was going to make sure she
had Christmas presents.




   Yvette Traylor     "We are His people and the sheep of his pasture."
   Dallas County Community College District             Psalm 100:3
   Computer Programmer/Analyst from Dallas - Texas
"I know worse things about myself that you will ever say about me." Anon
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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 08:03:00 EST
From:         "DRCV06::GRAHAM" <GRAHAM%DRCV06.decnet@DRCVAX.AF.MIL>
Subject:      Labels and terminology.

The term "Doctrines of Grace" is a recognized term among theologians.  No
theologian gets upset about this, he or she knows that this is a technical
term and does not refer to common grace doctrines.  Catholic and Protestant
theologians don't get confused with these terms, and they don't generally
fight over labels, they reserve their fights for less significant things.
[grin]

The term "Calvinist" is not a theologically accurate term, and is not used
among professionals.

However, since we are not professional theologians for the most part, I
will attempt to speak in a clear manner that does not offend but  plainly
describes my views.  Those of you who know me know that I have no trouble
expressing myself. [wide grin]

Though the word "grace" is commonly used by all Christians, you will find
that nearly all churches with the word Grace in the church name are
teaching doctrine with which Calvin would be comfortable, the same goes for
churches with the word "reform" or "reformed" in the name.  These are not
accidental names.  I would suggest that the use of the word "grace" is very
meaningful and ought to be thought out very carefully.

The term Doctrines of Grace is not a haphazard phrase, but one with great
meaning and deep roots.  However, as I say, I'll try to be careful and
pointed at the same time.  That ought to be interesting, huh?

Dan Graham
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X-Orig-To: CHRISTIA@ASUACAD.BITNET
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.christia
Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 14:27:56 CST
From:         MICHELE LOFTON <MLOFTON@USMCP6.BITNET>

SET CHRISTIA NO MAIL

Michele Lofton <MLOFTON@USMCP6.BITNET>
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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 01:13:14 EST
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      Shakespeare and Psalm 46

Gareth McCaughan writes:

 > Shakespeare died in 1616. The BCP was published in 1662, which is
 > 46 years later. If you look at the translation of Psalm 46, and
 > count the 46th word from the start and the 46th word from the
 > end, you get "shake" and "spear" respectively.

You can get the same count (provided that you omit the final
"Selah") by using the King James Bible (AV), published in 1611, when
Shakespeare was 46 years old.  (Question: I am using the usual AV
with partially modernized spelling. What would the count be in a
1611 edition?) This has been used as evidence that Shakespeare was
in some way connected with the translation process.  (I do not
suppose that he knew enough Hebrew to be a translator, but he might
very well be consulted on polishing the style of the English.)

However!

My 1549 BCP prints Psalm 46 as the Introit for Lent IV. It omits the
final verse ("The Lord of hostes is with us; the God of Jacob is
oure refuge"), presumably because it is an exact repetition of the
earlier verse.  In this translation "shake" is the 46th word from
the beginning, and "spear" is the 46th word from the end. The
differences in wording from the AV are minor. In the closing verses,
for example, the BCP has "be still THEN" and "heavens, AND I will",
but writes "will be" twice as "wylbe", thus evening out the count.

Since the 46 count is to be found in a translation printed before
Shakespeare was born, it is either prophecy or coincidence. I
incline to the latter.

 Yours,
 James Kiefer
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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 15:23:45 -0600
From:         jim coen <coen@ACC.WUACC.EDU>
Subject:      re: Civil Rights? Why?

Amen, Mike Benson!

    With this world (system) being what it is, Christian parents SHOULD
be concerned! Until you have seen your own children stained by the filth
of this world, you can't imagine the pain a parent goes through. Somehow
we must learn to "trust the Lord with all our hearts, and lean not to our
own understanding". We cannot and must not live in fear. And yet, rearing
children in this present evil age is extremely difficult and frought with
danger.

    A word to those with younger children: I believe that, as a rule,
Christians live in a dream world, somewhat out of touch with the reality of
the "real" world. Believe me when I say that your children, and mine, are
being "schooled" on every hand by forces antagonistic to your faith. Unless
you and I are careful (and prayerful), we may see the day when our own
children reject the very values and principles you and I may be willing to
die for!
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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 13:45:01 EST
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From:         Brenda Curry-White <BSCURR01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Including Christ in Christmas

Center for Urban and Economic Research
Phone: 502-588-6626

Michael Kline writes in response to my post: "I don't remember if I posted it
to a lists or just here, but my famiy is doing a whoe program on Christmas,
and it is a 31 day program.  We have our own advent wreith."

I recall you mentioning it.  Could you share this program of yours a little
more descriptively if you have time?  It sounds interesting (e.g., what verses
do you use on each day, do you have any special readings/activities?)

Thanks,
Brenda
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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 15:38:31 EST
From:         BENSON@POKVMCR3.VNET.IBM.COM
Subject:      re: Civil Rights? Why?

Dan, thanks for a bucket of cold water on the fire.  I am trying hard
to distinguish between the sin and the sinner.  Maybe I am generalizing
in stating that just because someone is a homosexual that they will
be teaching my children that homosexuality is ok.  I suspect there
heterosexuals that do the same and I wouldn't want them to be my
children's teachers either.

I just fear for my children in this world.  I want to protect them
from evil and the evil one.  What was once unquestionably antimoral
and evil is today accepted.  Lord help us to love the sinner but
hate the sin.

In Christ,
Mike Benson
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Date:         Fri, 11 Dec 1992 21:48:57 -0500
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From:         Liz Moreau <EMOREAU@UMASSD.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Abusive relationships

>My son's girlfriend became pregnant.  I'm embarrassed.  One thing
>I've always been proud of is my parenting.  Somehow, I feel I've
>failed.  I would rather it not be broadcast to my church.  But

Carol, I was so proud that your son and his girlfriend decided to keep
their child.  Often when we make one mistake we complicate things by
making more.

I think it all comes back to that first sin ... pride.  We all have a
big dose of it whether we think we do or not.  There are many things I
am not comfortable sharing with my church, but I wouldn't hesitate to
broadcast them to the e-mail world.  It provides anonymity(?).  We
know we can get immediate support and comfort and gentle 'judging.'
In my case, I feel closer to many people right here on this line than
I do with people I have supposedly known for years.

I thank God for this fellowship and good friends to stand by me when I
need them.

                                                Liz
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Organization: Argus Consulting, Tucson, AZ
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.4 2/2/92)
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Date:         Fri, 18 Dec 1992 17:22:22 -0700
From:         "Gordon C. Zaft" <zaft@CARITAS.COTDAZR.ORG>
Subject:      Re: Christians and civil rights

On Dec 17,  3:07pm, "DRCV06::GRAHAM" wrote:
} Subject: Christians and civil rights.
}
} Many are forgetting the golden rule.  Christians want the right to do as
} they please regarding their religious beliefs, but are not willing to
} accord equal rights to others that practice what they consider heinous sin.
        The Golden Rule is 'do unto others as you would have them do unto
you.'  Considering Christ's story about the millstone (the consequences of
leading others astray) I would certainly hope that others would prevent
me from doing so if I were in that position.  I don't think you can say
that not wanting openly avowed, practicing homosexuals to be teaching
young children is a violation of the Golden Rule.
}
} How about banning sinners from being teachers, after all, any sinner could
} teach your child his or her particular darling sin, whether it's apple
} stealing or group sex.  Oh, and this bunk about homosexuality being an
} affront to God?  Sin is an affront to God.  You and I are filthy, stinking
} sinners, deserving of death and hells hottest torch.  How dare anyone
} suggest that one sin is greater than another.  To God, we are slime.  In

        Well, James does more than suggest that one sin is greater than
another.  Perhaps you should reread his letter.
}
} We should be so thankful for our salvation that we treat everyone with the
} kindness shown us.  We should be the first to say that Homosexuals should
} not be mistreated nor discriminated against.  I've made my stand on the sin
} of homosexuality plain before, I won't do it again.  Sin isn't the issue
} here, love and Christlike behavior is.

        I will say that homosexuals should not be treated badly nor
discriminated against when they aren't in a position to lead young
children astray or cause problems due to their orientation.  I have no
problem with homosexual programmers, mailmen, carpenters, plumbers,
........
}-- End of excerpt from "DRCV06::GRAHAM"



--
* Gordon Zaft     Argus Consulting  4500 E. Sunrise #N-6, Tucson, AZ 85718
* zaft@caritas.cotdazr.org | noao.edu!coyote!caritas!zaft
                 Semper fidelis Christi et Vicarii sui.
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Date:         Sat, 12 Dec 1992 11:26:12 EST
From:         JEK@NIHCU.BITNET
Subject:      Third Sunday of Advent (13 Dec 1992)

THIRD SUNDAY OF ADVENT (13 Dec 1992)

READING: Isaiah 35:1-10
 ("The desert shall blossom as a rose.... Then shall the eyes of the
blind be opened.... The ransomed of the LORD shall return to Zion.")

PSALM 146
 ("Happy is he who has the God of Jacob for his help... who delivers
the oppressed, and feeds the hungry, and ...")

EPISTLE: James 5:7-10
 ("Be patient as you await the coming of the Lord.")

THE HOLY GOSPEL: Matthew 11:2-11
 (John the Baptist, in prison, sends Jesus a message: "Are you the
promised deliverer, or is another yet to come?" Jesus tells the
messengers: "Tell John what you  have seen, how the lame walk, and
the lepers are cleansed, and the poor have the Good News declared to
them.")

PRAYER (traditional)
   Stir up thy power, O Lord, and with great might come among us;
   and because we are sorely hindered by our sins, let thy
   bountiful grace and mercy speedily help and deliver us; through
   Jesus Christ our Lord, to whom, with thee and the Holy Ghost,
   be honor and glory, world without end.

PRAYER (contemporary)
   Stir up your power, O Lord, and with great might come among us;
   and because we are sorely hindered by our sins, let your
   bountiful grace and mercy speedily help and deliver us; through
   Jesus Christ our Lord, to whom, with you and the Holy Ghost, be
   honor and glory, world without end.
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