HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Greek Philosophy is a Joke
Date: 26 Jan 93 17:17:20 GMT
Organization: Keele University, England

From article <1993Jan26.001717.25120@afterlife.ncsc.mil>, by agscrib@afterlife.ncsc.mil (Arthur Scribner):
> Why are the Greeks given credit for the development of Philosophy as a 
> science. They had no contribution science of Philosophy, because the tenets
> of Philosophy were laid down thousands of years before the Greeks were even
> cognizant of themselves. The formalization of Philosophical thought and
> ideology was developed by the Ancient Egyptians from whom the Greeks merely
> plagarized.


Is there *one* scrap of evidence that this is the case????

> These early African people educated the Greeks, who were at that
> time known as the Pyrhennians, and gave them there culture.

Now Africa's a big place and full of very different peoples. Which group
of Africans would these ancient Egyptians belong to.


> I just don't
> appreciate the way the history books have been rigged to perpetuate this 
> myth of Greek Philosophy.

I do hope the 'Macedonia is Greek' brigade jump in here. Because on this
issue I suspect they're going to be right? Who rigged those books and
why and what is the evidence??

Andy
From: NICK@UMD.BITNET (Nick Gavrielatos )
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: GAMIETAI H TOURKIA
Date: 28 Jan 1993 21:12:45 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

Basika testaki kanw, alla opws exw ksanapei...
to terpnon meta tou wfelimou...

Nick Gavrielatos
To Sixameno Plasma
NICK@UMD.BITNET

Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: msg7038@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Michalis  Syrimis)
Subject: Re: Linovambakoi (Re: Turkish Cypriots reject ENOSIS)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 17:08:09 GMT
Keywords: Ali Pasas, The King, Makarios, Chrysostomos, Vasiliu, Enosis, Palikaria, Akritas

terziogl@ee.rochester.edu (Esin Terzioglu) writes:
My only comments come at the very end of the previous postings:

>In article <C17tv0.HnG@news.cso.uiuc.edu> msg7038@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Michalis  Syrimis) writes:
>[stuff deleted]

>>>GET OFF of it Symiris !!!
>>Besime control yourself, you are becoming a public scene.
>>Watch your typing too.  
>>
>>>Turkish Cypriots ARE TURKISH Cypriots.
>>
>>Exactly.  In your previous article you presented your arguments, which
>>were perfectly logical, and with which I agree completely.  It's how one 
>>feels that determines his ethnicity / nationality and not his genetic code.
>>Read also the posting by Lambros Skartsis about the more general subject, his
>>views are not very different than ours.
>>
>>However, the fact remains that some of the Turkish Cypriots indeed were 
>>Greek Cypriots who converted to islam during the years of the Ottoman rule.  
>>Historical Truth is Historical Truth.
>>That's the whole point I was trying to make, but your went several steps 
>>ahead and saw different intentions and implications.

>[stuff deleted]

>To all Greek Cypriots who claim that Turkish Cypriots were once Greeks(!),

>1) There is no evidence in the history of Cyprus that says that "Greek" 
>   Cypriots are related to mainland Greeks (then Byzantium). Cyprus had a
>   blend of peoples who lived on the Island (Lusignans, Venicians etc.)
>   So, present "Greek" Cypriots consider themselves to be Greek because of
>   common language and religion with the mainland Greece.

>2) When Ottomans conquered Cyprus, they enslaved women and put them in
>   their harems. Hey Panos, check it out man, you could be a descendent of
>   one of those. This "enslaving women" was done in mainland Greece as well.
>   So if there is anyone out there who claims that he/she is pure Greek,
>   he/she had better trace his/her family line back to fifteenth century.

>This article was called for by a couple of people of this net. It is not
>meant ot offend people, it is just a historical fact.

>regards,
>E.T.

E. T. stands for Extra Terrestrial as you very well understood from the 
content of the above posting.   

Are completely unimformed or rather misinformed Mr?
Go check out the ancient cities of SALAMIS, EGKWMI, SOLOI in the
occupied northern Cyprus and try to find the Lusignans and Venicians that
you are talking about.     

No further comments are necessary.
Michalis
>>Michalis Syrimis
>>University of Illinois
>>Urbana-Champaign
-- 
Michalis Syrimis
University of Illinois
Urbana-Champaign

Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:12482 soc.culture.europe:11384 soc.history:10940
From: J.Theodore.Schuerzinger@dartmouth.edu (J. Theodore Schuerzinger)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history
Subject: Re: On Macedonia (was Re: Greece reacts sharply to remarks by 
 Danish foreign minister)
Date: 25 Jan 93 04:15:49 GMT
 <1993Jan21.204939.9160@exu.ericsson.se> 
 <C1A4BM.3w@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> <C1Anpw.44z@news.cso.uiuc.edu> 
 <C1D8Hs.GHJ@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>  <C1DnDC.AxC@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0a5@newshost.dartmouth.edu

In article <C1DnDC.AxC@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ) writes:

>  Why Greeks are not objecting on the use of the name Athens in several cities
>  in the U.S.?

Probably because Greece can't force the US to change by blockading it
and starving it in an attempt to get the US to change the names of
those cities.  And well the Greeks shouldn't be protesting the use of
the name Athens for some American cities.  Just like they shouldn't be
protesting the use of the name 'Macedonia', which is not exclusively
theirs to use.

PS: The rest of the article in the 'Spectator' that I originally
mentioned talked a lot about Greek xenophobia in general, and
considering the responses this issue had raised so far from the Greeks
on the net, I think it would be interesting to post that article
sometime if I can find it.


--Ted Schuerzinger
email: .zed@Dartmouth.EDU
"I should have realized it would be bad vodka when all the label said
was 'Russian Vodka'."
From: NICK%UMD.BITNET@harvard.harvard.edu (Nick-Gavrielatos )
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Al-the-universal, take a UNIVERSAL PIPE!!!
Date: 28 Jan 1993 21:33:55 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
NNTP-Posting-Host: cs.utexas.edu

> From: trh@jack.sns.com (Al Trh)
> Subject: Re: The Chairman Of EC says:
> Organization: Systems'n'Software
> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 93 13:32:31 GMT>


> Aynen oyle oglum Levon.

God damn right, swallow it deeply and dont even breath!

> Haklisin, ne diyelim? Sen bana pas ver, ben O'na ganderirim.
^^^^^^^^^^^

Hassiklhs eisai???? As to dialo....

Makedon'unuda unutma. Celm takanlara dikkat.
                           ^^^^^^^^^

Tanaklara einai h adelfh sou h phgadopath...

> Faul yapanlari hakeme sikayet edelim mi?
  ^^^^

Oxi den exei faul, paizoume full-contact kai auta pou hkseres
na ta ksexaseis. 0a se petaw katw kai 0a ston pernaw kollie
opote mou goustarei, kai den exei fauls kai alla omofulofulika pou
mas katebazeis...

> Al the Universal

Al like in Almatopoutanos??? Take me a pipe for a change 
but dont forget to spit to koukoutsi meta! :-)  

(pws ta mplekw ta agglika mou mesa o pousths!!! :-)  )


Nick Gavrielatos
To Sixameno Plasma
NICK@UMD.BITNET

P.S. Universal sou leei meta... ti na poume emeis me th
     galaxian-popularity sixamara mas??? As to dialo tsoflia...

     (Exei plaka twra na egrapse kati kalo gia mas sto parapanw...)
From: bu008@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Brandon D. Ray)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,alt.news.macedonia
Subject: Re: Rob West + Steve Anderson
Date: 28 Jan 1993 02:29:27 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)
Reply-To: bu008@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Brandon D. Ray)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, irakliot@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Leo J. Irakliotis) says:

>In article <1k4nnnINNih0@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, bu008@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Brandon D. Ray) writes:
>
>|> Actually, there are a great many people of Macedonian ancestry living in 
>|> various Balkan countries, including Greece.  It is true that the Greek
>|> gov't has spent most of the 20th century trying to deny this, and 
>|> try systematically to stamp out all vestiges of Macedonian language and
>|> culture...such as requiring Greek citizens of Macedonian descent to 
>|> change their names to Greek ones, and prohibiting the establishment of
>|> schools which teach in the Macedonian language...but that doesn't change
>|> the *facts*.
>
>Right. We even cut their tongues and their left ears.
>
>Listen, what you describe is what happened in FYRM with Greeks.
>
If you have evidence to that effect, post it.

>There are no ethnic minorities in Greece and this is a well documented
>and accepted fact.
>
Only by the Greek gov't.  The rest of the world knows better.  In addition
to the Macedonian ethnic minority, there are also a significant number of
Turks living in Greece.

>Actually Greece recently co-signed the declaration of Minorities Rights
>in the UN, a monumental document in the history of the Organization as they
>were no provision to protect the rights of the minorities in the Chart,
>apart from a quite vague and brief reference in Article 27.
>
>-- 
>Leo J Irakliotis                 irakliot@eva.lance.colostate.edu
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>Electrical Engineering                      l.irakliotis@ieee.org
>Colorado State U
>(303) 491-2021                              Optical Computing Lab
>

-- 
******************************************************************************
The opinions expressed by the author are insightful, intelligent and very
carefully thought out.  It is therefore unlikely that they are shared by the
University of Iowa or Case Western Reserve University.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Subject: Re: Linovambakoi (Re: Turkish Cypriots reject ENOSIS)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 22:15:15 GMT

sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic) writes:

>In article <C12JG1.30n@news.cso.uiuc.edu> ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ) writes:

>>>  	The first time you replied with an unrelated fictionous
>>>novel called "AKRITAS PLAN" (your insisting on not giving where YOU (Okan)
>>>got it from gives me the right to call it fictionous).

>> Fictionous indeed.  Now the question is who has manufactured this plan.
>> Was Okan the person who did it? I don't think so.  The only resonable
>> answer is that Okan Baysan has to be related (i.e., being employed by)
>> the Denktas regime.

>Well, Okan has utterly humiliated you on this point. I don't need
>to add anything here. No, I take that back.

>Source #1: "Stavrinides", pp. 135-143.

 I feel very humiliated. What kind of bullshit is the above reference?
 Would you please give us existing references?  Fiction has nothing to
 do with reality.

 I guess, a second refernece would be: "Serdar Argic", post # 1,000,000,*.

>Serdar Argic

 Panos Tamamidis
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,alt.news.macedonia
From: lolonis@news.weeg.uiowa.edu (Panagiotis Lolonis)
Subject: Re: Ellemann-Jensen on Macedonia
Organization: University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 23:20:52 GMT

cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear) writes:

>manage to make statements like that all the time in Britain, but no one
>is dragged into court for doing so. We should also mention perhaps the
>five *Greek* communists who are on trial for treason (!) simply for
>circulating a pamphlet which disagreed with the official line on
>Macedonia.

They are not accused for treason.

The accusations are:
	- distribution of false information
	- cause of public unrest
	- disruption of friendly relations with neighboring countries

Their trial is pending.  Up to this point they have not been found guilty.

>Andy

Panos Lolonis
U. of Iowa
Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:12512 soc.culture.europe:11403 soc.history:10959
From: J.Theodore.Schuerzinger@dartmouth.edu (J. Theodore Schuerzinger)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history
Subject: Re: Errors (?) in the greek approach in the Macedonian issue.
Date: 25 Jan 93 23:16:35 GMT
 <C1DnDC.AxC@news.cso.uiuc.edu> <C1E6IG.Juz@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>  
 <1993Jan25.205306.21080@wuecl.wustl.edu>
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0a5@newshost.dartmouth.edu

In article <1993Jan25.205306.21080@wuecl.wustl.edu>
ls1@cec1.wustl.edu (Lambros Skartsis) quotes me:

> P.S. I cite below an example of the impression that the official
>      greek approach to the whole issue
>      typically creates to an uninformed (the vast majority)
>      third-party audience.
> 
> to the question of a greek:
> >
> >>  Why Greeks are not objecting on the use of the name Athens in several cities
> >>  in the U.S.?
>  
>  a typical third-party netter answers:
> >
> >Probably because Greece can't force the US to change by blockading it
> >and starving it in an attempt to get the US to change the names of
> >those cities.  And well the Greeks shouldn't be protesting the use of
> >the name Athens for some American cities.  Just like they shouldn't be
> >protesting the use of the name 'Macedonia', which is not exclusively
> >theirs to use.

> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But the point is that Greece *is* blockading Macedonia.  If they want
to have a province in their own country called Macedonia, fine.  If
Bulgaria wants to do so, too, that's fine as well.  And if this former
republic of Yugoslavia wants to keep its name (Macedonia), that's fine
too.  They shouldn't be blockaded in an attempt to be forced into
changing their name.  Note that the Greeks on the net don't admit to
the blockade against Macedonia.


--Ted Schuerzinger
email: .zed@Dartmouth.EDU
"I should have realized it would be bad vodka when all the label said
was 'Russian Vodka'."
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,alt.news.macedonia
From: deltah@ccs.northeastern.edu (Hariklia Delta)
Subject: Re: Ellemann-Jensen on Macedonia
Organization: College of CS, Northeastern U
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 05:01:41 GMT



> Hmmm, I seem to recall that not that long ago, there was a military
> regime in power in Greece...
> OOOOOOPS!!!! I forgot, the official interpretation is that everyone
> above the rank of corporal had an American with a gun pointed at their
> head telling them what to do.
> My mistake.


It ended 19 years ago. There was a trial they were convicted and we had no other
incidents since then (major or minor). But if in your mind something that 
happened once almost 20 years ago is worse (or even comparable) to something 
that recursively happens today, then let be!



                                                        --  Xapa


Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:12528 alt.news.macedonia:226
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Subject: Re: Linovambakoi
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 02:08:40 GMT

eerginel@unix.amherst.edu (ERDEM ERGINEL) writes:


>My ex-girl friend's family is from this village on her mother's
>side, and it is interesting how western European they look, with blond hair
>and blue eyes.

 Pardon me, but is this how Turks perceive western Europeans to be? 

>Regards,

>Erdem Erginel

>------
>E-mail : eerginel@amherst.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history
From: pef@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Panayotis Fouliras; TA PhD)
Subject: Re: Errors (?) in the greek approach in the Macedonian issue.
Organization: Computer Science Dept, QMW, University of London
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 12:22:15 GMT

In <1k6v2cINNl6r@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> velde2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Francois Velde) writes:

>>[1] The longest war in history is known as the 100 years war,
>>between England (today's Britain) and France over Britany. Now
>>a name implied a lot for both...

>The 100 Years War was fought by England (only part of today's Britain)
>and France over France; Brittany had nothing to do with it. The king
>Edward III of England, grandson of Philippe IV of France, disputed the
>French throne to Philippe VI nephew of Philippe IV.  Brittany was independent
>of both and remained so until around 1500.

>       Francois Velde

Thank you for the message above. If my memory serves me right,
the Norman king (of Brittany) William the Conqueror defeated
the English king Harold at the battle of Hastings in the 11th Century.
Every English king after him (for a certain period) used to
spend more time in Brittany than in England. English kings
considered Brittany theirs (rightfully perhaps).

The name was not an issue immediately, but might have evolved
later on, due to the enmity between the two sides.
Nevertheless, the English kings based their "propaganda" if you
prefer, more on the "rights" mentioned above, than the people's
origin/name (something more sophisticated, which appeared only
in the late 18th century with the French revolution, where the
normal people started been considered important, too).

But how is it that we have Brittany and Britain today, then?

Panayotis
--
UUCP:      pef@qmw-dcs.uucp  | Computer Science Dept    | "H Rwmania
Internet:  pef@dcs.qmw.ac.uk | QMW University of London |  kai an
JANET:     pef@uk.ac.qmw.dcs | Mile End Road            |  eperasen,
Voice:     +44 71 975 5220   | London E1 4NS            |  anthei kai
FAX:       +44 81 980 6533   |                          |  ferei kai
Cellphone: Too expensive to fit                            allon"

Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: tpd1@cec1.wustl.edu (Theodore P. David)
Subject: Re: writings on mount 5-dactylos
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis MO
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 07:40:48 GMT

In article <C1Jut7.KL7@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> bse@sage.cc.purdue.edu (Besime Erin) writes:
>
>The Turkish Cypriots mostly occupy the North not some aliens. 
	+ 40,000 turkish troops		  }______________^
	+ 70,000-80,000 turkish settlers  } 
		(no wonder King Dectash does not allow the UN to make a 
		 population census in the occupied areas!!!)
>We are people of Cyprus as much as anybody else is and the land
>we now have may not be propotional to our population nor may we have originally
>owned it all but we did own some of it and we did leave some lands in the
>South as well on which you are sitting on so don't you go around talking

  The difference is that you can easily go and claim your land and property
(as some clever turkish Cypriots are doing lately). We cannot !!!
  
>you are going to liberate the lands who totally belong to you because
>they DON'T totally belong to you. 
>
>Note: If any of you has numbers that show specifically and CORRECTLY 
>      what percentage of North Cyprus(or south also for that matter)
>      is/was owned by Turkish and Greek Cypriots, I would like to see them
>      again. I know it has been posted on this net before.
>>
Figures are from the 1973, Department of Lands and Surveys puplication:
	
	Greek Cypriots				: 59.6%
	Turkish Cypriots			: 12.3%
	Other minorities			:  1.4%
	Government owned (including forests)	: 26.7%

  As you can easily see, your argument above simply does not hold.
Even if we hypothetically say the govmnt owned land to be cut in half (why
should it though) you should be getting ~25% by far less than 38%.
>
>Besime Erin.
>
Have a nice day,
Theodore David

Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:12448 soc.culture.europe:11361 soc.history:10922
From: J.Theodore.Schuerzinger@dartmouth.edu (J. Theodore Schuerzinger)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history
Subject: On Macedonia (was Re: Greece reacts sharply to remarks by 
 Danish foreign minister)
Date: 24 Jan 93 16:01:04 GMT
 <1993Jan21.204939.9160@exu.ericsson.se> 
 <C1A4BM.3w@dartvax.dartmouth.edu>  <C1Anpw.44z@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0a5@newshost.dartmouth.edu

In article <C1Anpw.44z@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis ) writes:

> J.Theodore.Schuerzinger@dartmouth.edu (J. Theodore Schuerzinger) writes:
> 
> >I remember an article from the British magazine 'The Spectator' a few
> >months back in which one of the correspondents was in Greece and saw a
> >poster saying 'Macedonia is Greek'.  The correspondent thought it might
> >be more appropriate to add one word to the sign: 'Greek Macedonia is
> >Greek'.
> 
>  Well, following his logic, the "Republic of Macedonia" would be more
>  appropriate to be called "Republic of SOMETHING Macedonia," where the
>  word SOMETHING would make clear that this has nothing to do with Greece
>  and Greeks. Unfortunatelly, the word "Macedonia" will still be Greek,
>  as well as the emblem of their state...
> 
> >--Ted Schuerzinger
> 
>  Panos Tamamidis

My point was that the Greeks don't have any right to claim the name
'Macedonia' as theirs and theirs alone (which is what they are trying
to do).  If anybody else tries to use it for, say the independent
country which was formerly the southernmost of the Yugoslavian
republics, watch what those of Greek extraction who inhabit the net do.
 Why do you think I used the phrase 'hissy fit' in another of my posts?


--Ted Schuerzinger
email: .zed@Dartmouth.EDU
"I should have realized it would be bad vodka when all the label said
was 'Russian Vodka'."
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: lambri@ifi.unizh.ch (Dimitrios Lambrinos)
Subject: Re: MAK-NEWS_#227_(M.I.L.
Organization: University of Zurich, Department of Computer Science
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 93 12:32:30 GMT


In article <1993Jan27.042441.25794@rose.com>, mike.kozovski@rose.com (mike kozovski) writes:
> 
> Date Entered: 01-26-93 23:16

[stuff deleted....]

> ALL-MACEDONIAN AUSTRALIAN NATIONAL CONGRESS
> Skopje. The first all-Macedonian Australian national congress
> will take place between May 8 and 9 in Perth.
> The congress, which is being organised by the Macedonian
> Information Centre in Perth and the Macedonian Coordinating
> Council, will discuss ways in which to establish a common front
> over recognition for Macedonia, and to counteract the powerful
> greek propaganda.
> The congress coincides with the 100 anniversary of the foundation
> of TMORO, the 90th anniversary of the Ilinden Uprising and the
> death of Goce Delcev.
> Other issues to be discusses will include the activities of the
				^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Macedonian Orthodox Church, assistance to ethnic Macedonians in
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> the Pirin and Aegean regions of the Macedonian homeland, the
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^????????????????????^^^^^
> Macedonian media and the informing of the Macedonian community
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

	DON'T YOU JUST LOVE IT?:

	Macedonian honeland
	Pirin and Aegean regions of the Macedonian homeland
	Asistance to ethnic Macedonians
	...............................


	WHO TALKED ABOUT TERRITORIAL CLAIMS?



Have a nice day!

		Dimitrios.
Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:12504 alt.news.macedonia:210