From: nexus@karnak.cgd.ucar.edu (Jeff Berry)
Subject: Re: Swashbucklers vs. Knights in Armour, was: GM's Pain
Organization: Climate and Global Dynamics Division/NCAR, Boulder, CO
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1992 17:37:49 GMT

In article <1992Apr14.171923.2009@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> tabaer@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Troy A Baer) writes:
>The rapier and smallsword are civilian weapons.  They were not designed
>for battlefield combat, but for decoration and dueling.  I have difficulty
>that a rapier could stop a two-handed blow from an epee'-de-guerre (bastard
>sword).  Among other things, the rapier's blade is too light (I've seen this
>in playing around with my roommate's rapier) and too flexible.  A rapier-
>main gauche combination might be able to stop a bastard sword or battle
>axe once, but the fencer would most likely come away with two shattered
>weapons and one very amused opponent.

Hmm, what kind of "rapier" are you talking about here?  If you are talking
a fencing epee, you are absolutely correct, if you are talking blocking by 
attempting to absorb all the shock of the attack directly, you might be correct.
On the other hand, if you can redirect the force of the blow, or block it on
the guard or are talking about a real, combat ready rapier, I disagree.  A
rapier is a cut and thrust weapon, it can have blade anywhere up to about 4'
long (with some strange exceptions) and a blade around an inch and
half or so in width. 
>Modern competition fencing came from fencing styles developed in England,
>France, and Italy in the mid 18th Century.  By then, though, the rules
>have become so conventionalized and so much emphasis has been placed on
>form rather than effectiveness that the sport is not really viable as a
>true combat form. (this information is from Ch. 6 of  _Basic_Foil_Fencing_
>by Dr. Charles Simonian)
Absoluletely correct again.  What does it have to do with this conversation?
I already mentioned that modern fencing weapons aren't weapons.
>Rapiers can penetrate armor IF you can find a chink in the armor and IF
>you can get close enough to exploit it.  Truly extraordinary fencers,
>like today's Olympians, might be able to pull it off, assuming they aren't
>hewn down trying to get close enough.  However, even if a chink is found,
>they're mostly at the joints; the only really vulnerable spots are the
>eyeslits and throat, and they're usually well protected.
Hmm, what kind of armor?  Chainmain type armors?  Let's see long pokey thing,
kind of like an arrow, sounds good to me!  Plate armors-ther are lots of chinks
in plate armors.  Get close enough?  Your average rapier is at least as long
as your average broadsword, range isn't an issue.  

>Not to flame, but think through what you said before.  If you don't believe
I did, thanks very much.
>me, go to a fencing club and try blocking a baseball bat with one of their
>sabers -- that's the closest modern-day equivalent.
Wrong.  Absolutely and utterly wrong.  Did you miss my whole point which was
that MODERN FENCING WEAPONS ARE NOT WEAPONS.  Everything you have said applies
completely to MODERN FENCING WEAPONS.  I was talking about real weapons.
You know, designed to kill people.  A fencing sabre is 3' piece of thin
whippy steel.  A fighting sabre is a 3' piece of sharpened steel which is
about 6 times wide and at least twice as thick as a fencing sabre.  
  The closest modern day equivalent is to take the various weapons invlolved
and smack them together.
>	--Troy

badger                                      Don Alexandre Lerot d'Avigne
Jeff Berry                                  Seneschal of Caer Galen, Outlands
               nexus@ncar.ucar.edu
NCAR doesn't tell me what to think, and I return the favor.
"You're a notch and I'm a legend"-------Alice Cooper
"You're still doing the things that I gave up years ago.."-----Lou Reed