From: lazlo@triton.unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble)
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: Re: More on fantasies and discussing one or two (was) Re: Rape in any form ...
Date: 31 Jul 92 17:47:19 GMT
Organization: Sporadic and incomplete

synth@deepthought.unm.edu (Synth F. Oberheim) writes:

[Some graphic language follows.]

> By your reasoning, then, analysis of *any* fantasy cannot be anything
> but incomplete and invalid, since anything offered in their descriptions
> somehow can never be truly comprehensive or even believed. 

No, by my reasoning you can't assume that someone's fantasy is a rape
fantasy just because they didn't bother to mention consent in their casual
description of that fantasy.  If over the course of a conversation with
someone, it becomes clear to you that they really, honestly fantasize
about raping someone -- no consent involved whatsoever -- that's one
thing. But my impression is that you're taking people's offhand comments
and construing them in a way that coincides with and reinforces whatever
negative notions you may have about about male sexuality. 

Hearing someone say "I sure would like to shove my dick in her mouth"
demonstrates that they're a clod, but it's hardly all-revealing about
the nature of their fantasy life. 

> ...your definition of "rape fantasy" seems to involve a lot more of an
> extreme kind of image or attitude than mine.  Rape follows a *wide*
> spectrum. 

I define rape as "non-consensual sexual contact" -- I'm not sure how that
differs from your definition but it's probably not by much.  When I said
"full-blown rape fantasy" I said "full blown" to distinguish a fantasy
that specifically and intentionally includes rape as a part of the
fantasy, as opposed to things that might be *construed* as rape by someone
who only hears a superficial description of that fantasy. 

>> If these ... are really typical of the fantasies of the males you were
>> socialized with, then the fact that you still associated with them says
>> almost as much about you as it does about them. 
>
> "Still associated with them"?  From what hat did you pull *this* rabbit
> out of ...? 

If you didn't associate with them, how can you say that you were
socialized with them?  What am I missing? 

>>> I agree that simply hearing of someone expressing a desire to have sex
>>> with someone, without explicitly describing whether or not that person
>>> consents, cannot be construed to be a rape fantasy. 
>>
>> From where I sit, it obviously looks like you're construing exactly
>> that. 
>
> You mean "looked", don't you, since I had now clarified that?  Or does
> that not matter to you? 

You may have clarified your *intent*, but I still haven't seen any actual
examples (as opposed to the generalized "lifeless sex toy"/"drug'em and
fuck'em" examples) from you that I would interpret as obvious rape
fantasies . . . so I'm still not convinced that you're not construing
things that aren't necessarily there. 

> And if you for some reason have a personal nit to pick with me, which it
> looks like you do, then take it to email. 

The only nit I have to pick with you here is your (in my opinion, fast-and-
loose) interpretation of what constitutes a "rape fantasy".  You're
expressing some notions about male sexuality, especially as it pertains to
rape, that I'm extremely uncomfortable with . . . and since you're
expressing them in this forum, this forum seems like the place to discuss
them.  Yes?

--
Lazlo (lazlo@triton.unm.edu)
Newsgroups: talk.rape