From: mdchaney@fractal.ucs.indiana.edu (M Darrin Chaney)
Newsgroups: soc.college
Subject: Re: This "Frat" discussion...
Date: 5 Nov 92 21:08:38 GMT
Article-I.D.: usenet.Bx9HEE.1oG
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington

In article <1d9amtINN3q0@skat.usc.edu> tarra@skat.usc.edu (Tom) writes:
>When did Ted show any actual evidence for his views of frats.  He has said
>what he thinks, but at least I haven't seen any sources.  If I missed something
>please send me or repost any info you have.  

He posted a nice bibliography last spring.  You have someone read parts of
some of the books to you sometime.  Unfortunately, none of them have many
pictures.

>>But, that's why most other people stay out of it.  What can I say that Ted
>>hasn't?  I agree that not all fraternities are bad, but so does Ted.  It's
>>just a flawed system.  Coming in and making "sweeping changes" certainly
>>sounds grand, but it hasn't happened, and it isn't going to.
>>
>How do you know?  Where is your evidence to support this statement?  You have
>to be proven guilty the last I heard, not proven innocent, so the burden of 
>proof lies with the accusers.

The proof is in the pudding.  Around here, that statement means that until I
see it, I won't believe it.  I've been hearing about these great changes since
I entered college 6 years ago.  I've not seen anything improve.

>>If you people want to shut Ted up, then do what he does.  Bring out some
>>legitimate studies that show that fraternities don't have an obnoxious rape
>>rate, etc.  Note that "Well, I'm a frat member and *I* don't rape women" or
>>"Nobody in my house has been charged with rape" are not legitimate studies.
>>They are fuel for Ted.  And, frankly, if your house doesn't have rapists,
>>that's great.  But, it's not the norm.
>
>This is outright slander, as well as being ridiculous.  I suppose you can prove
>that most fraternities in the nation have a history of rape.  I suggest you 
>learn a little bit about frats and the number of them that exist before you 
>say stupid things like this.  One piece of evidence I'll give you is that here
>at SC over the past ten years there have only been four houses that have had
>incidents involving allegations of date rape, and of those four none of the 
>charges were proven.  This means that four houses out of 32, at last count, 
>here at SC were named in a rape case.  That is a far lower average than you 
>would suggest, not to mention a far lower average than the University itself.

Really?  Then let's see the numbers for the rest of the university.  Let's see
some national averages.  I challenge you to find one (note: just *one*)
legitimate study that shows that, on the average, fraternities have a lower
rape rate than the rest of the campus.  Your local women's studies department
is a great place to start :)

>>And that's what we're looking at here.  Statistics that generalize the
>>system.  Again, I challenge you to come up with some numbers that show Ted
>>is wrong.  I'm getting tired of the "that's not true" argument that's so
>>prevelent on the pro-frat side.  If you really want me to believe that's
>>not true, then prove it.  I'm not asking much.
>>
>Where are the statistics?  Not only am I offended that through your stupid
>generalizations you are accusing me of being a rapist or saying that I 
>condone it because I am in the Greek system, but then you ask me to prove
>that I am not.  How dare you make such stupid comments?  If you don't like
>Frats, that's fine.  They're not for everyone, but neither are any of the 
>other specific extra curricular organizations on most campuses.  In any case
>if it's not for you don't become a part of the Greek System, but don't try 
>to make blanket statements that bash it.  That's just plain old discrimination.

Again, I'm just asking for some numbers.  I'm not calling you a rapist, that's
not something I have knowledge of.  However, chances are much higher that you
are, since you're in a fraternity.  That's statistics, and yes, that is a 
generalization.  That's what statistics do.

Don't feel bad.  I'm a male under 25, so my car insurance is higher because
I'm at higher risk for an accident.  In reality, I'm a good driver (although
I had a deer run out in front of my 4 years ago), but according to the
insurance company, I'm a risk.  They've never even been in a car with me, and
they figured this out.

Now, if I found a study that showed that, indeed, they were wrong, maybe they'd
adjust their rates.  If you were to find a legitimate study, book, whatever,
that showed that the rape rate in fraternities is generally lower than the rest
of the campus male population, then maybe you'd convince the rest of us that
we're wrong.  Instead, you resort to personal attacks and childish defenses.
Rather than adding to this flame war, why not do some research.  If you can't
do it, then don't post drivel.  It's already been done.

As for your last statement on discrimination, it makes me laugh.  An
organization that excludes women and gays, (I would say blacks and foreigners,
but I've have to go to the library first) is more along the lines of
Webster's definition of discrimination.

Get back with us when you found those numbers we're asking for.  That should
keep you occupied.... for life.

Not speaking for IU...

	Darrin
-- 

mdchaney@iubacs mdchaney@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu mdchaney@rose.ucs.indiana.edu

"I want- I need- to live, to see it all..."
Newsgroups: soc.college