From: wjames@cse.ucsc.edu (John Amenta)
Newsgroups: alt.paranormal
Subject: Piper Sitting sample, and Response to Mr. McGrath
Date: 17 Dec 1992 02:54:15 GMT
Organization: University of California, Santa Cruz (CE/CIS Boards)
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: pal.ucsc.edu


In response to:

|> I would like to here what you have to say about William James'
|> research of Mrs. Piper.  Unless, you are unaware who William James
|> was, then indeed you are not worth my time.

Robert McGrath writes:

>> I am well aware of who William James was.  It is impossible to say
>> anything useful about Mrs. Piper, as no further evidence can be 
>> obtained, we can only hash over what other people have said.
>> See Ruth Brandon, "The Spriritualists" for a discussion of the
>> James/Piper stuff which indicates the weaknesses in James'
>> claims that she was a "White Crow".

>> Please stop insulting me.

My sincere apologies.  I do not wish to turn this discussion into
a mud slinging contest, and I welcome your request.  Please let me
know if I insult you further.  Otherwise, let us continue in the 
spirit of respecting each other's right to have differing opinions.

Now.  You state the Piper evidence is not useful since no further
evidence can be obtained?  I don't understand.  Please clarify.  Just
because a Supernova is observed that occurred 2 million years ago, are
we then to discount it as evidence that Stars explode, since no
further evidence (or a recurrence of that Supernova will occur)?
Do you mean no other Paranormal cases similar to the Mrs. Piper
have been obtained since then, therefore the Piper case is invalid?
This too is a false assumption.  What do you mean "we can only
hash over what other people have said"?  isn't this the nature of
scientific evidence on the whole of it, how scientific theories are
created?  Facts are observed about nature and then theories are 
constructed to explain the observed facts.  Of course, another part
of science is replicating the known facts in laboratories, but by
all means is not the only way a fact is known to be true - unless
you want to completely eliminate Astronomy as a Science, and many
parts of other Sciences which mostly are based on observation without
replication.  An observation can establish a fact that such and
such has occurred, under such and such conditions.  We know that
Telepathy has occurred, but Psychical Researchers are still hard put
to understand under what conditions they do occur. This does not
deny the validity of the evidence.

>> See Ruth Brandon, "The Spriritualists" for a discussion of the
>> James/Piper stuff which indicates the weaknesses in James'
>> claims that she was a "White Crow".

I am much interested in what Ruth Brandon claims as the weakness in
the Piper material.  In the spirit of this discussion, I am willing
to read any posts you can send, which quote Mrs. Brandon, to support
your contention that the "White Crow" was not really white after all.
I am extremely interested.  I like yourself, seek truth (I believe)
so could you post a summary of her argument perhaps?

In the meanwhile, let me post myself, some material from the Piper
investigation itself, which helped convince James and many other highly
respected scientists, of the validity of Mrs. Lenore Piper's psychic
abilities.

Taken from "On Psychical Research, William James" by Gardner Murphy
and Robert O. Ballou.

               6. Miss Bergman's Sittings
	  (Notes and commentary by William James)

  I will end my specimens by some extracts from two sittings of
Miss R. Bergman [pseudonym].  Miss Bergman had been in previous years
an excellent sitter, and was known by name to Mrs. Piper.  She dwelt
in another state, and her social connections were not in Massachusetts.
At her first visit, December 31st, 1907, the communications were in
writing and she had much difficulty in deciphering them.  At the
second sitting, January 1st, 1908, the voice was used and things
ran much more smoothly.
   At the first sitting R.H. [Richard Hodgson a control of Piper]
quickly appeared, spoke of having seen two brothers of the sitter in
the spirit world [names known to trance personalities, and non-evidential],
made a wrong statement about Christmas at the cemetery, and then, being
asked to recall his meetings with Miss Bergman on earth, said:

    "I will.  Do you remember one evening when I came to the hotel
     where you were staying and I sat and told you of my experiences
     till it got very late and I asked you if you would not [illegible]
     I told you so very many jokes, you and Miss Pope were convulsed
     with laughter over it. [Correct, Hotel Bellevue, Boston, March 
     1905 - R.B.]

 After a while, Hodgson reappears, saying:

    "Do you remember my telling you about my German friends?
    (No.)
    Perhaps Miss Pope remembers.

    [I found later that Miss Pope well remembered Dr. Hodgson's
telling about his "german friends" and that it was that which
"convulsed us with laughter" the evening he had stayed so late when
calling at our hotel.  At this point I had become so discouraged
by the great difficulty of reading the writing and the confusion in
making things clear that I felt very indifferent and inert in mind. -
R.B]

    "Bosh.
    (What do you mean by that?)
    You understand well.
    (Bosh?)
    Yes, I say bosh.  B O S H  B O S H
    (What do you mean by that?)
    Oh I say it is _all bosh._
    (What is bosh?)
    Why the way you understand.  It is simply awful.
    (That sounds like you, Dr. Hodgson.)
    I could shake you.
    (How can I do better?)
    Put all your wits to it, you have plenty of them.
    (I will do my best.  Go on.)
    Do.  Do you remember I used to chaff you?
    (Indeed I do.)
    Well I am still chaffing you a bit just for recognition.
    (It helps.)
    Amen.  Now you are waking up a bit.
    (I am.)
    Capital.  So am I.  Don't you remember I told you I would show
    you how to manage if I ever came over before you did?
    (Indeed I do.) [Sitter had often heard Dr. Hodgson say this.]
    Well now I am trying to show you.  I used to scold you right
    and left and I shall have to keep it up, I think, unless you
    do better.
    (I deserve it.)
    If you do not who does?
    (You are your old self.)
    Oh I am the [two words not deciphered] I was.  You'll find it out
    before I finish.
    (Have you a message for Theo? [Miss Theodate Pope.]
    Yes indeed give her my love and tell her I am not going to forsake
    her.  I do not think she has been keeping straight to the mark.
    (What do you mean by that?)
    I think she has been getting a little mixed up in her thoughts
    and ideas of us over here.  I am the same old sixpence and I wish
    she were the same.  I want to see her very much.

    ["Theo" had had no sitting for a long time, her interest being
    lessened by the circumstance that records of sittings were not 
    being kept systematically, as before Dr. Hodgson's death.  At this
    point the hand wrote comments relating to circumstances which
    had arisin in Theo's life since Dr. Hodgson's death.  These
    comments were singularly appropriate. - R. B.]

<cut>

Very well Mr. Mcgrath.  I have posted a single examplee recorded by
William James himself of a single sitting of Mrs. Piper and a Miss
Bergman.  The sitting itself is very common of what is known about
veridical mediumship ... and Mrs. Piper, knowing Miss Bergman by
name only, was able to give paranormal information in regards to
a hotel incident that she herself was never present at.  Although,
I myself by a long shot, do not believe this sitting or many others
have proven conclusively the surivival or a soul beyond death, I do
believe as William James did, that the many recorded sittings do
prove conclusively in the validity of Telepathy at the very least.

I welcome and am most interested in your criticisms.