From: rose@acf9.nyu.edu (David Rose)
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg
Subject: Re: what ARE axioms? (who cares how they work)
Date: 7 Apr 92 22:05:15 GMT
Organization: New York University

oakes@jupiter.nmt.edu (David Oakes) writes:

>once again, mr rose has brought something to my attention,
>and i think it will fuel the axiom fire for a little longer...

>[dave mentions axiom 0, and i reply]

>well, i personally  feel that reality it self begins to break down
>around an axiom level of  3-4, and that even the living become
>a contradiction at 0/0/0/0.

>tech needs to be above 0 for biochemical reactions
>social needs to be above 0 for hierarchy of atoms, other structures
>magic needs to be above 0 for random chance (evolutionary need)
>spirit needs to be above 0 for "life force"

>anyone of these might be high enough to make up for the others
>(the will of Lanala created the LL, not random chemical reactions)
>(a tech 25/spirit 0 might be a cosm of souless automatons, etc)
>but straight zeros is true nothingness

>dave "game over, man" oakes

Ick.  This was not what I had intended.  I think that the axioms are
logarithmic scale, like everything else.

To make the following work, I assume the following hypotheses as to
the ultimate reality regarding the axioms of tech, magic, social and
spiritual.

  tech   = manipulation of unliving by unliving.
  magic  = manipulation of unliving by living.
  social = manipulation of living   by living.
  spirit = manipulation of living   by unliving.
    [It finishes the sequence, doesn't it?  It doesn't have to make sense.]

Tech 0 = No usage of tools.
         [Note: Tech 1 = Only capable of using found tools, like what
                         chimpanzees in the wild do.]

Magic 0 = No magic.  The individual's spirit is limited to their physical
          body for interacting with their environment.

Social 0 = No social interaction is supported.  To keep this reasonable,
          I would allow internal drives: sex, territorial possession,
          self-protection, maternal instinct.  No families, though, and
          no communication.  The kids have to figure out what to do on their
          own, once they have been weaned.
          [Note: Social 1 = affect communication possible, but no language.
                 "The lions roar to each other in the savanna's night."]

Spirit 0 = No spiritual intervention.  Symbols have no meaning, nor
          do objects.

  With axioms this low, you could theoretically have mammalian life, but
it would be a primitive mammalism, no more complicated than primitive
rodents.

  Theoretically, one could speak of negative axiom levels, and one could
allow more primitive forms of life (avian for example, with a large
dependance upon instinct).  However, it would be pointless, so why
bother.

  [My original interest with axioms (0/0/0/0) was abstract.  I wanted
   to be able to describe skills which had no axiom requirements.
   These are very natural: running, swimming, dodging, climbing,
     breaking, intimidation, unarmed combat, find ....]

--
David Rose
Courant Institute of Mathematical Sciences
251 Mercer Street, New York, NY 10012
rose@math12.cims.nyu.edu
Newsgroups: alt.games.torg