Newsgroups: alt.polyamory
Subject: Re: "Cheating"
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 17:08:30 -0600

 ES>    I won't argue that wives and husbands are still 
 ES> people with rights and all that.  I *will* ask a 
 ES> potential future partner if there's someone else 
 ES> (possibly more than one someone else) who's likely to 
 ES> get upset if we do have sex.
   
   This is pretty close to how I feel about it.  Whenever possible I like to
talk with the "someone else" just as a matter of general friendliness, and also
to satisfy my curiousity; then again, most of my lovers are in fandom, and fans
seem to take this sort of conversation as an acceptable form of courtesy in
certain circumstances.  (At least some fans do.  I like them best, I guess.)
   If anyone doesn't want me to talk to their "someone else", I get just a bit
nervous as to whether there's a secret being kept here.  I don't do that sort of
secrets; if I sleep with/play with/love somebody, I want to be able to call them
at home and get a good welcome on the phone if someone else answers.  If their
someone else thinks that me being involved is a bad idea, that's valuable
information that I very much want to follow up.
   

 ES>    This can get particularly sticky if, like Averti 
 ES> and I, you have lots of lesbian friends, as I 
 ES> discovered a few weekends ago when I asked Betty if it 
 ES> was okay if Perry fucked me. 
 ES>    Betty immediately went on a bit of a rampage, 
 ES> worrying that her long-time lover was going to fuck a 
 ES> guy and all. Betty and I get along pretty well, but 
 ES> not at any sexual level.  Perry and I have gotten 
 ES> along for years. 
 ES>    It wasn't until we showed her the dildo harness, 
 ES> and made it clear that the subject-verb placement was 
 ES> accurate (Perry is going to fuck Elf) that she said, 
 ES> "Oh, that's okay then."  *Sigh*  
   
   Oy, does this open up a whole can of sexual politics!
   
   Also brings up the question of what different sexual acts "mean" to different
folks.
[ long rambling paragraph deleted where elise tries to express something about
cocksucking feeling more intimate to her than many other sexual acts, and gets
her feet so tangled up in words she has to sit down and untie the knots.]
   The following is sheer speculation and musing and will probably get my butt
shot off, but here goes anyhow:  
   Some lesbians seem to have a deep fear that being fucked will turn them
straight.  [Personally, I believe that a lesbian identity is generally founded
on something that can't get washed away with a squirt or two of semen.]  Yet
some of the same women believe that if a lesbian fucks a man (in the exact
meaning of the phrase, as in your example), she's in no danger (or at least less
danger) of giving up her lesbian self.  
   In another area, there are men who claim that since they are the fuckers
rather than the fuckees they aren't really bi or gay.
   Certain heterosexuals believe that there are some sexual acts that "don't
really count as cheating", usually acts other than intercourse. 
   There are many other examples, and they make we wonder whether there isn't
some unexamined belief about penetration and control behind all this.  It's
almost as if certain folks believe that "those who fuck" have a lot of power and
control (to define their sexual identity, to control the intimacy of the
relationship, whatever) and "those who get fucked" are somehow less able to
decide what they want and who they are & love.
   It makes me wonder what Camille Paglia's take on it would be (then again I've
been lying at home watching Zappa's 200 Motels after being taken through barely
consensual hospital weirdness all day)  and I wonder if she's say that "Having a
weenie (even a strap-on) means that you get to call the shots, and not having
one (or being what my friend calls an "innie" instead of an "outie" -- or
functioning as an innie in a particular encounter) means that you get "taken":
defined, claimed and changed by the person doing the penetration, rather than
vice versa."  
   This all comes out because I've been reading what folks post about
limits/vetos/areas of caution in polyamory, and trying to get a different angle
on how the mechanics of sexual interaction fit with those topics.  I haven't
successfully defined the question yet, let alone taken a good leap at an answer.
 If anyone else can shed a bit of light on the subject, be my guest.  
   Elf, I'm especially interested in your comments on this regarding poly
relationships and jealousy; whaddya think?
   
   [I'm tempted to put in a paragraph of explanation in an attempt to forestall
the misunderstandings, but I'll just say that my personal concepts of power and
vulnerability don't revolve around who puts their weemus where.]


Newsgroups: alt.polyamory