From: dkarma@pro-nbs.acme.fred.org (Druta Karma)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.eastern
Subject: Re: Becoming aware
Date: 15 Oct 92 03:32:30 GMT
Article-I.D.: ogicse.44220
Distribution: world
Organization: Pro-nbs.acme.fred.org -- San Diego, Ca (619) 571-0152

In <1bb5m4INNhmm@sandman.caltech.edu>
mw@ki.fht-mannheim.de (Marc Wachowitz) writes:

>Druta Karma <dkarma@pro-nbs.acme.fred.org> wrote:
>: There is a pleasure connected with sex in order to insure procreation. But
>: that pleasure is also available to the cats and dogs. And if one is attached
>: to that level of pleasure, then one remains in the cycle of birth and death,
>: because in order to enjoy the pleasure of genital contact, one has to have a
>: material body. And the material body is subject to birth, death, old age, and
>: disease. So the pleasure of material genital sex is intimately tangled up
>: with the miseries of birth, death, old age, and disease.
>
>Maybe the miseries you associate with the natural changes is "only" a result
>of an inappropriate way of living?
>Find out how to live, and death is nothing to worry about (nor to repress).
>[And I mean without assuming rebirth or similar hopes - whether true or not.]

Yes, the miseries are a product of inappropriate living--living in the
material world rather than the spiritual world. But anyways, let's look at all
four of the miseries and see if you think they could be enjoyable. The first
is birth. This for the child and the mother is a painful experience. Of
course, you can say that after it's all over, one sees it as beautiful, but
the physical experience itself, I am told, is one of the most painful one
could imagine. 

Next is disease. Try as you may, you cannot avoid disease in the material
world. And no one thinks it is pleasant. Otherwise, the latest kick would be
to go down to your local neighborhood disease shop and try out the latest new
disease like AIDS, or colon cancer, or Alzheimer's or whatever. Of course, one
can always learn to tolerate and "grow" and so forth. But the bedrock
experience of disease is quite painful. And we can include in that all the
mental diseases that people suffer. I would agree that a lot of disease is
caused by inappropriate lifestyles. Eating meat, for example, is a big cause
of heart disease and cancer according to many medical reports. But try as one
may one cannot become free from disease of the material body by material
means. There is a means to become free. But if you are satisfied with the
options before you, and aren't interested in the cure recommended in the Gita,
then that is of course your prerogative. 

Next is old age. I know there is a lot of propaganda about the wonderful
golden years. And one can adopt different mental attitudes. But I don't think
most women look forward to menopause with very much anticipation. I don't
think men or women like to see their physical capacities degenerate, their
bodies become old-looking, and so on. I am not denying that one can adopt some
kind of stoic attitude in the face of this inevitable decay of the body and
try to get along as best one can. But at rock bottom the experience is not
very pleasant, and most people, as far as I can see, make every attempt to
postpone old age, deny it, etc. Again, it is possible that good lifestyle
choices can lessen the pain of the ordeal, but it is still an ordeal.

And finally death. People do seem to go through quite a bit of trouble to
avoid it. And although some people do go "quietly in their sleep" in a great
many more cases there does appear to be some trauma involved. I think there is
also a lot of mental pain involved as one's emotional connections with friends
and family are about to be finally severed. 

I am aware that some people are not going to feel that these are things that
one should be trying to get free of by taking up a process of spiritual
realization such as the bhakti-yoga system described by Krishna in the
Bhagavad-gita. Everyone has free will, and everyone has particular desires they
are trying to satisfy. So some people feel it is better to concentrate on
going after whatever material pleasures are available to them in this life,
and tolerate the four miseries as inevitable parts of life. And they are free
to do that. It is a question of taste, ultimately. Aesthetics, if you will. 

Of course, if one thinks there is no alternative, and that all talk of a
spiritual self, afterlife, spiritual world, etc. is just imaginary, then one
has no choice but to make the best of a bad bargain. But as far as I am
concerned, I have encountered sufficient reason to accept that there is an
alternative, and I find life in the material world so aesthetically
unsatisfying, that I am willing to make an attempt to achieve a more
satisfying experience, starting now. But to each his/her own.

Of course, if one becomes self-realized and detached from material sense
desire, then one can become relatively free from the changes of the material
body. In this case, one identifies completely as the eternal spirit soul
within the physical machinery of the body. And one seeks pleasure not from the
contact of the material senses with material sense objects, but from
contemplation of the spiritual sense objects and Krishna, the reservoir of
spiritual pleasure. But as long as one is identifying the self as the body and
is depending upon material sense gratification for happiness, one is bound to
become disappointed as one's instrument of gratification begins to detiorate
and finally disintegrates completely. 


>
>: Material sex life is brief, mixed with unpleasantness, and the more you try
>: to enjoy it the less enjoyable it becomes due to physical limitations,
>
>One might "try" (read: strive) less (but not reject) and enjoy more what's
>already there.

What's there is available to any cat or dog. And as I said, the pleasure of
material sex depends on the body. And if you want to have sex in a material
body, then you are going to have to accept everything that goes with that body,
including birth, death, old age, and disease. If that sounds like a good
bargain to you, then fine. That is your choice. And if you think that is the
only choice, that is fine too. But there is evidence that there is another
choice, and I personally have accepted that. But that is my choice, and I
guess I will have to live with the consequences. Undeniably, there is some
pleasure connected with sex. As I said in a previous post, that pleasure is
there to insure procreation. In fact, one of the big miseries one has to
undergo in the course of one's sexual career is avoiding pregnancy. It seems
like quite a bit of anxiety goes into that. And if one does not succeed in
avoiding pregnancy, then all kinds of problems come up with the abortion
question. No matter what position one takes, one has to agree that this issue,
on the personal as well as the societal level, is the cause of quite a bit of
anxiety. And then there is the question of sexually transmitted diseases,
which seem to be more and more a cause of anxiety these days, especially for
those who contract them. Then there is the whole question of sexual
harassment.Sexual discrimination. Sex crimes, including child molestation,
rape, and so forth. And then there are all the interpersonal things that go
along with sexual relationships--ranging from, on the light side, all the mind
games and "trips" that go on from junior high on to the very heavy things like
finding your steady sex partner has been cheating on you, all the things that
go into divorce, and so on. 

And getting back to pregnancy, then usually one is married, and has kids, and
a tremendous amount of work and anxiety goes into that. One has to settle
down, be responsible, work hard, save money, and one never thinks one has
really done enough. And then if there is divorce,and there are children, that
creates a tremendous amount of anxiety. I could go on, but I just want to
suggest that the brief moments of pleasure that material sex affords are not
unmixed with material pain, anxiety, etc. But the main point is that material
sex means a material body, and a material body means birth, death, old age,
and disease. Among other things.

Obviously this is an analytical approach. And it may seem like a negative
approach. But as I have indicated in other posts, there is in the bhakti-yoga
system a legitimate form of sex, and that is between a married couple,
followers of bhakti-yoga, who desire to bring a soul into this world. In some
few cases, the soul that comes is already a greatly realized soul who takes
the opportunity to take birth in a spiritual family. In other cases, it may be
a soul that is given the opportunity to become advanced spiritually by taking
birth in a suitable family.So that kind of man woman relationship, including a
sexual component, is allowable. And if the couple follows the bhakti-yoga
principles, they will be able to cruise through the minefield of sex in the
material world with a minimum of material unhappiness and a maximum of
spiritual advancement. And if one can remain celibate by experiencing the
higher taste of transcendental rasa available through the bhaki-yoga system,
so much the better.So it is not a negative approach, although it may look like
that at first. People naturally are looking for happiness (rasa) in their
personal relationships, but the real rasa they are looking for is in their
spiritual loving relationship with the Original Person, Krishna, whose name
means "reservoir of pleasure." 



Druta Karma
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