HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sichase@csa1.lbl.gov (SCOTT I CHASE)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Agnostics and Athiests
Followup-To: talk.religion.misc
Date: 29 Jul 92 23:31:43 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory - Berkeley, CA, USA
Distribution: na
Reply-To: sichase@csa1.lbl.gov
NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.3.254.196
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4   

I wrote: 

Come on, now.  Ask the pope how old the Earth is.  What do you think he will
say?

Chris responded: 

>I'm no fan of JP2, but I suspect he'd first plead incompetence to answer
>and direct the question to a scientist. If pressed, he'd probably say, 
>"About 4 billion years."
> 
>He may be a conservative on some issues in the RC church, but he
>is no biblical literalist. Look to some of the more fundamentalist
>evangelical sects for that sort of belief.

Not a chance.  Neither he nor the rest of the Church establishment would
dare offend the many believers who still accept this nonsense.  Just
look at what happens every time someone claims to see an image of the 
Virgin Mary in the knot of a tree or in some candle wax somewhere.  Thousands
of people flock to see the tree or the candle.  When the press asks
the Church leaders whether they think that it's really a miracle they
just mumble and say things like "well, it's more complicated to decide 
if something is a miracle or not than meets the eyes.  It could take decades.  
Better to just let people think what they want to think..."

-Scott
--------------------
Scott I. Chase			"The question seems to be of such a character
SICHASE@CSA2.LBL.GOV		that if I should come to life after my death
				and some mathematician were to tell me that it
				had been definitely settled, I think I would
				immediately drop dead again."      - Vandiver
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: kv07@IASTATE.EDU (Warren Vonroeschlaub)
Subject: Re: JWs and their blood hypocrisy
Reply-To: kv07@IASTATE.EDU (Warren Vonroeschlaub)
Organization: Ministery of Silly Walks
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 22:27:26 GMT

In article <1992Jul20.152712.13750@cs.joensuu.fi>, asiivo@cs.joensuu.fi (Antti
Siivonen) writes:
> kv07@IASTATE.EDU (Warren Vonroeschlaub) writes:
> >> Even here in F-land blood is hidden
> >> 	to food although the producers know some people can't eat it.
> >  You consider that persecution?  Not labeling food?  That is lack of FDA
> >perhaps, but if thats the way you want to go:
> 
> 	I said that for the much smaller moselem minority the food was labeled.

  Well, Kosher food is labled here too.  I think it has more to do with the
willingness of the organizations to label things or go to companies and ask them
to.

  I am willing to bet that not every product containg pork is clearly labeled. 
It certainly isn't in America, even in New York city, unless you are in a
heavily Jewish area the kosher section of a grocery store is tiny to
non-existant.

> >  What horrible persecution I face:
> 
> >    My beliefs forbid cursing, but books with curse-words in them are never
> >clearly labeled!
> 
> 	I think they are in Americas: At least music is. 

  Nope.  There is some volentary labeling, but most go unlabeled.  there is no
way for me to be sure there aren't any beforehand.

> >  You have to be joking.  How can you sit there and compare the lack of food
> >labeling with mass slaughter?
> 
> 	Because the result is the same or even worse: If you're murdered in a
> 	camp, you'll have resurrection, but if you eat knowingly eat blood, it
> 	can't be granted. 

  But you are saying that you don't know.  If it isn't labeled you aren't
knowingly eating blood.

> >  I could just as easily say I am being persecuted because nobody ever talks
> >about my religion.  A conclusion is worthless if it follows from any set of
> >hypothesies.
> 
> 	Perhaps, because you're not actively publishing your religious 
> 	opinions. 

  Ah, that will certainly result in more active responses.  If you consider
being put off persecution, and still feel the need to be anoying, then don't
complain.  I am active, but when I am I don't get upset when people respond.

***********************************************************************
* Warren Kurt   *  "In our country we have those three unspeakably    *
* vonRoeschlaub *   precious things: freedom of speech, freedom of    *
* kv07@iastate  *   conscience, and the prudence never to practice    *
*               *   either." - Mark Twain                             *
***********************************************************************
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: sbuckley@fraser.sfu.ca (Stephen Buckley)
Subject: Re: Jesus Would Gag
Organization: Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, B.C., Canada
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 07:09:11 GMT

pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul Harvey) writes:

>simon@dcs.warwick.ac.uk (Simon Clippingdale) writes:
>Why don't you believe in Santa Claus?
>If you believe in God but not in Santa, please account for your different
>conclusions. By the way, if your belief in God is based on scripture, no
>problem. Take your bible, and do a global substitution of "Santa" in place
>of "God". Now you have an authoritative scripture which proclaims the glory
>of Santa.

>sbuckley@fraser.sfu.ca (Stephen Buckley) writes:
>true.  but that book would no longer be the bible.  it would be santa's
>scriptures which i would disbelieve in as much as i disbelieve in hindu
>[or any other religion's] scripture.  

>Why? And what makes you think Yahweh/Madonna/Jesus scriptures are the one true 
>path? What if God turns out to be Saint Nick? Why risk it? He brings free gifts
>every winter solstice, why not just accept these gifts? Or are you just being 
>didactic and following the teachings of Luke 14:26?

  disregarding the luke 14:26 red herring, i'll say that the bible is the
one true path based on ten years of studying different philosophies and
spiritualities from all over the world that claimed to explain much of the
workings of the world.  all of them failed me in that they either couldn't
answer all my questions or substantiate any meaning in life.  the bible
answers all my questions, and through it i found meaning in life when every
other avenue of exploration utterly failed me and i was left void of
any purpose in life.

Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: Steve.Gross@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Steve Gross)
Subject: Homosexuals anywhere are wrong
Keywords: read the bible for goodness sakes.
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1992 22:06:09 GMT


All of you who think that homosexuals in the congregation, or in the
ministry, or anywhere else for that matter are  in need of some serious
bible time.

I am not a homophobe, but the bible clearly and unerringly points out that
homosexual activities are WRONG.  Jesus died for all men's sins, yes, but
that is not to say that he died to be made a fool of.  God has NEVER let
the sins of man go by.  Jesus loves everyone, no doubt, but that does not
mean that he is going to let  one group  get away with something while
chastising all the others.

If jesus were to love and forgive homosexuals as a group, why not
murderers and adulterers?  Why not fornicators, and rapists.  God does not
look at a single group of humans, he looks at all humanity.  When he made
his sacrifice, he made it for all.  A homosexual will not desire to be one
of the elect, because sin rules his or her life.  Anyone who says they are
a homosexual but at the same time are a true christian is a liar.  One can
only serve one master.  Jesus Christ, or the flesh.

I am not a writer, so my opinions and statements may not be as eloquent as
some  others, for that I apologize.  I prefer all flames and comments to
come to my box so that all do not have to suffer with my arguments. 
Unless, of course it is one that the group would find beneficial.

God Bless,
Steve.Gross@bbs.oit.unc.edu    or for outside the system,
Steve.Gross@lambada.unc.edu.

 


--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
From: jeon@milton.u.washington.edu (Sangyong Jeon)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Singular Salvation
Date: 30 Jul 92 09:57:11 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <12570@inews.intel.com> pharvey@mipos3.intel.com (Paul
Harvey) writes: 
>jeon:
>>But my point really is that deities and religions are creations of the
>>human beings, not the other way around.
>
>That's right. God created man in his own image and man returned the favor. But
>which came first, the chicken or the egg, the mother or the boy, God or man?
>

Egg, because it is more similar to the one-cell creatures that started
life on earth. 

Mother, because the female gender is basic and the male gender is the
derivative. 

Man, because existence of man has meaning to man without god. But
existence of god without man has no meaning whatsoever at all to man.
If exists, god couldn't be careless about the meaning of anything.

>>[personal salvation]
>
>Yes, it is the time of the individual. We are free, it is only a matter of
>fulfilling the role. Roma backwards is amor!
>

Puzzling statement. What role ? "Role" has meaning only in the context
of the (co- or inter- )dependence upon others.
Personal salvation has nothing to do with "role" in any meaning.

And who said anything about the capital of Italy backwards being love?

Jeon
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: stmarys@vms.macc.wisc.edu (Ted Babcock)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Homosexuals anywhere are wrong
Date: 28 Jul 92 21:50:21 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin Academic Computing Center

In article <92116@bu.edu>, kane@buast7.bu.edu (Hot Young Star) 
writes..>

>Me:
>>>But you certainly don't have enough information to conclude that he didn't
>>>possess a homosexual or bisexual orientation.
> 
>>As a matter of Christian faith, I believe that Christ was sinless, and 
>>therefore that He was not sexually immoral, either in thought or life.
> 
>Christian doctrine now states that homosexuality as an orientation is not
>sinful. If Christ were homosexually oriented, or bisexually, or heterosexually
>oriented, he was not sinful by orientation alone.
> 
>Brian.

But, while a homosexual orientation by itself is not a sin (to the 
extent that it is not under one's control), it _is_ considered a 
physical defect, and so we may conclude that Jesus was not a 
homosexual, either in practice or "merely" in orientation.

Ted
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc,talk.abortion
From: gordons@netcom.com (Gordon Storga)
Subject: Re: What is Sex to God?
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 92 07:36:57 GMT
Organization: Stay Awake Software

<1992Jul21.180424.6522@noao.edu> forgach@noao.edu (Suzanne Forgach) writes:
>From article by gordons@coopsol.com (Gordon Storga):
>> <10068@scott.ed.ac.uk> iad@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Ivan A Derzhanski) said:
>>>In article <84#x9g@rpi.edu> cookc@aix.rpi.edu (rocker) writes:
>>><forgach@noao.edu (Suzanne Forgach) writes:
>>><>From article by gordons@netcom.com (Gordon Storga):
>>><>> 
>>><>> Can you list for me 10 merciful, loving, and sacrificial things that your 
>>><>> god did for humans that was not done expressly for gaining or maintaining
>>><>> converts.  In other words, he did them solely because they were to 
>>><>> please others.
>>>
>>>[stories from the Gospels discussed]
>>>
>>><But you can't attest to the motives behind ANY of these things.
>>>
>>>The motives are debatable, because the effect is both that people
>>>benefit from the deeds and that they are amazed by the tricks Jesus
>>>knows, and become or are reconfirmed as his followers.  Was the goal
>>>to feed the hungry/heal the ill and the side effect to impress the
>>>crowd, or was it vice versa?  Here's a difficult question.
>> 
>> Hard to believe an omnipotent being didn't realize the end results of his
>> actions.  If it was only to benefit the individual at that time and not to
>> gain converts later then I'm sure that this god could have kept these
>> "miracles" out of the bible altogether.
>
>In fact, he did keep most of them out.

What?  He could only keep "most" of them out?  Why couldn't he keep all
of them out?  Couldn't be because he wanted people to be amazed and
coerced by these "miracles" could it.

And how do you know he kept most of them out?  I realize that the bible
doesn't follow every moment of every day of Jesus life, but that by no
means indicates that *most* of his miracles were not recorded.

That's like saying "the miracles of the Easter Bunny are not recorded."
I mean, technically it's correct, but what does it prove?


Gordon
-- 
The opinions expressed are my own, and not the beliefs or opinions
of whatever company you think I work for.  So there, thhhbbbt!
Message to Kodak:  Freedom for Dan Bredy.
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Homosexuals anywhere are wrong
From: scott@anasaz (Scott Gibson)
Date: 24 Jul 92 14:55:56 GMT
Reply-To: scott@qip.UUCP (Scott Gibson)
Distribution: na
Organization: Anasazi, Inc.  Phoenix, Az

In article <1992Jul23.235005.15236@news.cs.brandeis.edu> aaron@binah.cc.brandeis.edu writes:
>
>It's only in our culture that love = sex.

What's this "we", kemo sabe?



-- 
But you knew your figure cut a cipher/ Through every crafted plan/ And 
playing our game for real/ Saw through our plumbing jobs/ And wayward glands/
To a meaning of your own, in bones."  - Iain M. Banks, "Use of Weapons"
Scott Gibson                   {ames!ncar!noao!asuvax,mcdphx}!anasaz!qip!scott
Disclaimer:  These opinions are my own, and may change without prior notice.
From: lung@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Terence Lung)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Get a Clue (was: Get a Life)
Date: 24 Jul 92 13:49:09 GMT
Reply-To: lung@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Terence Lung)
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD

SECBH@CUNYVM.BITNET (name ???)
in Message-ID: <92205.122637SECBH@CUNYVM.BITNET> writes:
>In article <1992Jul22.173330.23164@samba.oit.unc.edu>
>Steve.Gross@bbs.oit.unc.edu (Steve Gross) writes:
>
>>Jesus was and is sinless, and forever will be.  You should   "Face it".
>
>As the man is almost 2,000 years dead...
Really?  I thought resurrection (not resuscitation) was what the
guy was all about.

>...If the bible were as clear as
>you opine Christianity would not be the welter of conflicting churches,
>traditions and cults that it is....
Really?  what bible?  the conflicts began before any compilation.
The current conflicts are basically rehashes of old ones.

>There does not seem to be any other
>major religion which is as confused about its heritage and its
>beliefs as Christianity.
Really?  There does not seem to be any other major religion
[that you know of] which is as confused about its blah blah blah.

Terence
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Re: Homosexuals anywhere are wrong?
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1992 20:47:36 GMT

In article <sbuckley.712397446@sfu.ca> sbuckley@fraser.sfu.ca (Stephen Buckley) writes:
>  well, would i have a natural inborn physical defect if you were to smack
>me upside the head?  no.  jesus by definition is sinless and flawless.  of
>course he had wounds inflicted upon him.  that happens when you're crucified.
>but it doesn't mean that he is not sinless or imperfect.

Some "divinity".  Claims to come down to earth as a human so he can experience
what all us other humans have to go through...  and then he exempts himself
from sin and imperfection?  Isn't this cheating?

If he _really_ wanted to experience what it was like for all the other humans
on Earth, why didn't he choose to become a sinful human?  Every other human on
earth has a sinful nature; how could he claim he wanted to be like us, yet
decide to have this one characteristic totally different from us?

The same applies to "imperfection".  All other humans have imperfections.  Why
would Jesus want to come down and be a human just like us, and then decide to
be _unlike_ us by not having the imperfections that every single other human
being has?

How could Jesus _really_ understand what it is like to be a sinful, imperfect,
human being without becoming one?
--
Hi! Ani mutacia shel virus .signature. Ha`atek oti letoch .signature shelcha!

Ken Arromdee (UUCP: ....!jhunix!arromdee; BITNET: arromdee@jhuvm;
     INTERNET: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: lauraf@eecs.umich.edu (Laura Falk)
Subject: Re: [This is what Corey and Tim says] This is what the Jehovah's Witnesses do.
Organization: University of Michigan
	<LAURAF.92Jul24082753@wolf.eecs.umich.edu>
	<1992Jul24.192301.21979@dcs.warwick.ac.uk>
	<1992Jul27.174443.2701@sdf.lonestar.org>
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1992 16:41:23 GMT

In article <1992Jul27.174443.2701@sdf.lonestar.org> corey@sdf.lonestar.org (Corey Carroll) writes:


   Ok, Laura, but how do you know the Bible is Jehovah's Word?  Because
   the Watchtower told you?  Because you were raised in the "truth" (like
   I was)?

Creation is evidence enough for me.  I cannot comprehend how man could just
evolve.  Humans today cannot create life or duplicate the healing process of the
body.  Does all this not account for something?

   Well, Witnesses aren't trained to use rational logic.  They use something
   they call "reasoning from the scriptures" to justify everything.  Problem
   is the Bible is not always consistent.  Oh well.

An aid is a good thing!  Tell me, what other aids did you use in understand
calculus (you know, those study guides the profs are always suggesting one to
get)?

   Exactly.....if there *is* a God, he has made it VERY hard for *ME* to
   believe in him.  How am  I to trust an ancient book filled with myths
   and legends?  How am I to believe through "faith", when everything
   I do is based upon logic and reasoning?  God gave me a brain that demands
   reasons for everything, and good evidence, yet he provides none with
   respect to his existence.  Even if I were to have such a "vision" I
   would seriously question my own sanity.  I speculate that that's what
   happened to those Bible prophets of long ago.  I propose that they were
   crazy.

I guess everything is dependent on ones heart condition.  As the bible says,
Jehovah draws the right-hearted people.

I am really sorry you feel this way but as you put it: OH WELL!

Regards,
Laura
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: corey@sdf.lonestar.org (Corey Carroll)
Subject: This is what the Jehovah's Witnesses do.
Organization: sdf Public Access UNIX, Dallas--unrestricted free shell access
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 00:14:19 GMT

Well, I want to thank everyone for the references to the publishing
house that has books on the JW's.  For now, here's something interesting
to look at.

I don't care if this breaks all the rules of Internet etiquette.  This
must be posted to show what the JW's do when they encounter arguments
they cannot rebutt.  According to Andrea, I am an 'apostate', apparently
because I had the "truth" and I rejected it.  

-------------------------------[email begins here]--------------------------

Subject: Re: jw's and the 144000
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Status: RO

In talk.religion.misc you write:
>Well, believe it or not, I'm a recent person who is freeing themself
>from the Jehovah's Witnesses.  If you read alt.atheism, you know who
>I am.  After reading talk.origins for a while, I discovered the
>bad scholarship in their book _Life_.
>is a demonic theory.  That's why I moved out of the house, and one reason
>for leaving the JW religion.

	I got the impression that you are an apostate. You know, how we will
	treat apostates, so it's needless for you to try to talk with us, 
	everything you say will be ignored. I've told this to the other 
	friends, too. 

				Andreas


------------------------------[end e-mail]----------------------------------

Well, that just about sums up the Witnesses for you right there.  I find
it interesting that they make such a big deal about being open-minded in
the field service, (that is, the people they preach to must be open-minded).
However, they turn right around and censor all opposing viewpoints.  That's
just real grand.  I guess I'll be in Andrea's kill file.  Haha.  Oh well.

-- 
"All religions make me wanna throw up!"
"All religions make me sick!" - Dead Kennedys, Religious Vomit

corey@sdf.lonestar.org                       ..!uunet!convex!egsner!sdf!corey
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
From: lfoard@Turing.ORG (Lawrence C. Foard)
Subject: Re: Jesus Would Gag
Organization: The Turing Project, Charlottesville Virginia.
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1992 08:40:48 GMT

In article <l70kqiINNqbq@male.EBay.Sun.COM> lesley@pleasanton.EBay.Sun.COM writes:
>
> Now..could you please answer a question for me? Why don't you beleive in God?
>
>>	In Christ...
>>		Lesley
>
>However, I'm going to ask Lesley a question which I hope will serve as
>an answer of sorts to hers:
>
>	Why don't you believe in Santa Claus?
>
>If you believe in God but not in Santa, please account for your different
>conclusions. By the way, if your belief in God is based on scripture, no
>problem. Take your bible, and do a global substitution of "Santa" in place
>of "God". Now you have an authoritative scripture which proclaims the glory
>of Santa.
>
>	Simon, 
>
>	My conclusions is that God sent His only Son Jesus Christ..to make a covenent with
>	His people by His blood to forgive us of our sins, to keep us from going to Hell..for
>	those of us who chose to follow Christ.

And then sent Santa to deliver toys on His sons Birthday.

>	As for Santa being inserted into the Word of God that is impossible...Santa (Chris) didn't
>	heal the sick, make the blind see, or the lame to walk...there is no way..you could replace God.

Santa performs miracles to, he can make it to all the houses in the
world in only one day, and he can even squeeze down chimneys after eating
all the cookies and milk left for him. 
-- 
>>Unix/C Contract worker available 5 years C/unix work experience<<  ______
Available for Telecommuting/Travel and contracts on the T Line       \    /
in the Boston MA area. Send me e-mail for a copy of my Resume.        \  /
       -- VWIS 508-793-9568 (2400 baud), Linux support BBS.--          \/
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc