From: terry@eece.ksu.edu (Terry Hull)
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs
Subject: Re: help with retriever problem (with question)
Date: 21 Aug 1992 14:45:21 GMT
Organization: Kansas State University
NNTP-Posting-Host: ralph.eece.ksu.edu

macaj2@cspyr1.cs.adfa.oz.au (MACKINNELL AMANDA) writes:

>	Putting shock collars on a dog, especially ones as sweet tempered as a Golden is cruel. This retrieving of articles doesnt sound malicious, just the actions of a dog who requires some sort of distraction.
>	Lets see what happens if we were to put shock collars on men, and use them every time they scratch their genitalia...!

No shock collar flame war here, but I must say my piece.  

Amanda, have you ever used a shock collar on yourself?  If not, why
don't you try getting some facts before you fly off the handle?  If
so, what is your problem?  You know it is not that bad.  I did use
mine on my fingertips (much more sensitive than my Rottweiler's neck)
before I ever put it around his neck.  I wanted to know what I was
doing to my dog before I did it.  (I also used a prong collar on my
arm before I used it on my dog.)  

I own and use a TriTronics Model 300.  On it's lowest setting, it is a
rather mild attention getter.  I have seen my dog ignore it when he
was really intense on something and quite honestly I'm not sure how
something mild enough to be ignored by the dog can be considered
cruel.  On its highest setting it *will* get the dog's attention but it
will *not* hurt the dog.  The value in the collar is not the intense
pain it produces (it doesn't) but in it's ability to convince the dog
that dad can "reach out and touch him" when he is 200 yards away.  It
surprises the dog much like a shaker can does when used properly.

A shock collar is like most any training tool from a leash to prong
collar to a piece of food.  They can be used humanely or they can be
used cruelly.  It is all up to the trainer.  I use my shock collar
just like any other correction.  It is used when the dog is distracted
or when he thinks he has a choice.  It is *not* used to introduce a
new command.  I agree it is cruel to introduce "come" with "Fido,
Come!" ZAP!!!!  That was not the issue here.  

When Chris posted his response, he made a mistake in thinking that the
problem was when the dog was alone, so his solution was not really
applicable to this particular problem, but it is a good solution for
some dogs who misbehave when their owners are away.  Of course another
solution is to buy a crate and use it.  

Now back to the original question. I suspect that the Golden is using 
this as an attention getter.  The other think I can think of is the
dog is doing this when the owner is at home to demonstrate that he is
in charge and not his owner.  Either way, some obedience training
should help.  It will help establish owner dominance and it will
provide the dog positive attention. 

BTW: My current use of my shock collar is to walk my dogs.  I have 3
dogs that I am walking 2x per day about 1.5 miles each time. I put
leashes on two of them and put the shock collar on the third.  This
dog, Bear, is my 4 year old Rottweiler who has been walking with me
for over 3 years.  Bear walks to my left within a few feet of where I
want him with no corrections whatsoever except an occasional "Bear
Easy!"  when he gets ahead of me because he sees something exciting
ahead. If this is cruelty, somehow it is lost on the dog, as he trots
down the street with his head and tail held high.  .  .

Related question.  I have 3 dogs to walk and I currently do it this
way


	Bear      Wiz      Cuddles   me 
        (shock)   (Lead)   (Lead)    (holding two leads)

Yes we do get a lot of strange questions as we walk down the street.
(Wiz is a 5 month old Rott puppy and Cuddles is my 2.5 year old Border
Collie / Great Pyreneese cross.)  I get questions like: Is that dog
yours (Bear) or is he just tagging along?  How do you get them to do
that?  etc. etc.  I have tried walking them out in front of me, but
once they are out in front of me they all like to play like sled dogs.
I have considered getting Halti collars for all of them so that I can
put them all on leads and let them get out in front of me, but I have
not done that yet.  How do the rest of you walk 3 or more dogs at the
same time?  

--
Terry Hull  -  terry@eece.ksu.edu
Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering, Kansas State University