From: tang@akofin.enet.dec.com (Gabe Tang)
Newsgroups: alt.sport.darts
Subject: Re: Soft Tip Darts - was: Lurker comes forward
Date: 28 Sep 92 18:54:42 GMT
Organization: the vms company


re: (Roger Christal).........

>I can't believe I'm gonna respond to this.  Imagine, defending two-bit
>darts!  (OK, Grant & Jim, don't puke on this one.)
	
	I can't believe it too.  ;^)  ok. maybe I can.....

>>       Shooting
>>	skills probably don't improve using soft-tips because the machines
>>	I've seen allow you to win an '01 game by hitting only the single
>>	of the number you have left...not the double.
> 
>Com'on, get serious.  Have you ever hit a single 60?  How about a
>single 33?  You can finish an electronic game with one dart on ANY
>number on the board; BUT, just like bristle games, you still have to
>set it up.

	Yes, but if I have 19 to do, do I go for the 3 and then double 8?
	Or do I miss and hit 17 and then need double 1? No, I can miss and
	hit 19 to bust? No. No. and No! All I need to hit is a single 19 to
	win. Is this more difficult or less? I need 60 to do.....so why not
	hit 3 20s. 20, 20 and 20. Even most beginners will think that is
	easier than hitting a single 20, double 20 combination.
	Oh, btw, yes, I have hit a 60 with one dart. and a 33 with 1 dart
	before too. And on soft-tip machines, those can win an '01 game.

>>       So, there is less skill required.
> 
>Sure, it may not be quite as difficult to finish 140 with T20, T20,
>S20, but it is still quite exciting to a novice player.  So, what's
>this preoccupation with skill level?  There are many darters out there
>who realize they will never be great players but continue to play
>because they enjoy the game and the people who participate.

	Well, there is this thing about playing a game properly and not 
	playing it by the rules. Also, there is a thing called variations
	and modification which make things easier or harder. It occurs in
	all types of games and activities. And as a rule, if you want to
	become more accomplished at something, the more difficult the
	skill required, the more appreciated the accomplishment is. That's
	all. If you want to play an easier game or activity, that is your
	right to do so. I merely commented that, in my opinion, it is an
	easier test and required less skill to play on a soft-tip machine.
	
        For example, would the NBA pro basketball league be as popular if
	the height of the net were lowered to 8' or the hoop were enlarged
	to say, 30" diameter? Or if men's Olympic volleyball net were lowered
	to 7' or the golf hole were enlarged to 1' diameter. Sure, more
	people could play it and score better than they could currently.
	Is this necessarily good or bad? you tell me? All I know is that it
	requires less skill. And if it requires less skill to accomplish, I
	believe a person's skill level won't improve as much. What is wrong
	with my stating these truisms?

>>       Also, the bull area, and I've only seen the ones
>>	with single bulls, are a good bit larger than a normal steel-tip
>>	bull.......more like a half-dollar size rather than a quarter.:-(
> 
>Yeah, the bull is bigger and plays a much larger roll in electronic
>darts.  Makes for real interesting Cricket strategy.  Each bull counts
>one mark when closing, but 50 points when scoring!  Can make the game
>real interesting.

	In that case, I should think good shooters would just go ahead and
	close out bull on the very first turn!! I think I would, considering
	it is already larger than any triple section. And scoring 50 instead
	of 25 for perimeter hits is an added bonus.

>The boards with two bulls can be set to operate EXACTLY the same as
>the bristle board; however, the bull area is slightly larger.

	Slightly larger means slightly easier. Just like in target archery or
	riflery. Any target with a 10%, 20% or 50% increase in size for the
	same shooting distance is going to mean easier targetting and improved
	scoring. It always happens that way....same shooter, same equipment...
	same skill level......higher scores. I've done it before.

>>	Lastly, on many instances, as long as the dart tip strikes the number
>>	section with enough force, even if it bounces out, the machine will
>>	register a score and chalk it up.
> 
>Doesn't even have to hit the board.  It can score by hitting another
>dart already in the board!

	Is this a feature? or a bug?  ;-)))

>>       In a standard game, darts that
>>	do not stay in the board do not count for score. So you tell me,
>>	will you improve or not if you can win a game more easily than in
>>	standard darts. 
> 
>Again, can't people play just to have fun?  Why do they always have to
>improve?

	Well, when I was growing up, winning was considered fun and losing
	was considered not fun. And when better skills resulted in more
	winning then more fun was derived. But, if you have fun in losing,
	that is also your right. On the other hand, if better skills lost
	out to luck, then that was also considered not as much fun.
	I don't know which one would give me greater satisfaction, hitting
	a 200' pop-up home-run off of my mother throwing a softball or
	hitting a 350' line-drive out off of Roger Clemons throwing a 
	hardball. I suspect it would be the latter. ;^))

>>	And, if I recall correctly, 2-person or partner games cost more....
>>	like each has to put in a quarter. Think of it as if it were a
>>	pinball game without the free replay/game feature. If you were to
>>	play pinball and not win any free games, how much could you/would
>>	you want to stay and put into the machine? 
> 
>Doesn't matter that you might be having fun, right?
>Some games cost a quarter and some cost half a buck.  You're sounding
>like a cheapskate darter again.

	There we are with the cheap darters again. Does it occur to you
	that all these cheap darters are putting up the 2-bits into these
	machines. Somehow I can't see these people being as cheap as you
	make them out to be. Other-wsie there must be a helluva lot of
	non-cheap darters that out-number the cheap ones.

>>	That is why some areas and bars have/like to force people to switch 
>>	to soft-tips. They use the excuse about safety and cheap darters. 
> 
>Like I said in my last post.  The reason is that bar owners can have
>a coin operator come in with his machine, buy a few sets of house
>darts and start collecting revenue right away.  Not real hard to
>understand the motive.

	That's right, to make money off of darts as well as alcohol. Is
	this in the best interest of the darter or the bar-owner? I 
	understood it that most people reading this newsgroup are darters, 
	not bar-owners. Why is it so objectionable to state this?

>> [deleted discussion of why bar owners like darts]
> 
>>	So why do I like steel-tip darts over soft-tip, because I don't have
>>	to pay pin-ball-like to suffer aggravation and frustration!!! At least
>>	it doesn't compound the pain. And then I can divert my monetary
>>	resources over to alcohol to drown my sorrows. Besides, it's a pain
>>	to keep on asking for change in quarters. :-}
> 
>Based on your discussion, it is obvious you've never participated in
>organized electronic darts.  You shouldn't knock it until you've
>tried it.

	The only reason I didn't try it was because the organizers of the
	electronic dart tournament did not want to start the tournament until
	I had left the bar. The fellow watched me warm-up using his darts
	and decided that 7 bulls in 9 darts was a little too strong for his
	regulars. He had originally asked me to stay and enter the tournament
	when I told him I had never shot in an electronic darts tournament
	before.
	After playing a few games with the locals and waiting for over an
	hour after the official start-time, I grew tired of waiting around 
	and had to leave because my "ride" wanted to go leave.

>Like I previously stated, there are 20 electronic players to every 1
>bristle player here.  Electronic darters perceive the "other" game as
>"darts with an attitude", mostly because of bristle players snobbish
>attitude toward "two-bit" darts.  Think about it.

	Is that not just reverse-discrimination on the part of the electronic
	darters? think about it. :-)

>In our local bristle league, the Portland Area Dart Association, 30%
>of our current players first played league in electronic darts!  I
>suppose the exposure to darts, regardless of type, isn't worth it, right?  

	I suppose if you've only been exposed to one type of game, being the
	only one available in the bars, then you naturally play only that
	one game. When I visited Seattle, there were almost no bars with
	bristle boards around. Believe me, I drove all over the area and
	only found 2 places. However, I did play electronic at several
	places against league shooters. They mostly were delighted at losing
	to me and frequently asked how I learned to shoot and what could
	I recommend to them to improve. 

	Roger, exposure is one thing. It is good to get more people
	interested and participating. But, somewhere along the line, someone
	may want to get better at the game. And when they do, they'll look
	for better competition. Just like Little League baseball, eventually
	the player will find out there is a larger diamond/field and the
	pitching is faster and the base paths are longer. And to hit a 
	home-run on that field, it's much more difficult. What is the sense
	of arguing upon category distinctions? In the pure sense of the 
	skill, it is easier to play electronic than steel-tip....for the
	reasons I/we have stated before.

>What electronic darts offers is an opportunity for profit.  Because of.....

	Yes, but again, it's not to profit the darter but the bar-owner.
	That's all I said before. That's all I am saying now.

>How successful are the leagues?  In this area of about one million
>people, you can play in league 7 nights a week, and take your choice
>of league on many of those nights.

	I don't know, if I were to play every night of the week, I'd
	probably come into work so frequently with hang-overs that I
	wouldn't have a job or bank account left. :-{

>Many bar owners offer weekly blind draw double competitions.  All are
>double elimination.  On any given night, you can usually find one or
>more blind draws where the bar owner is stoking the pot by adding $100
>to the entry fees (called a $100 add).  Most weekends, you can play at
>one bar in an 8 PM event and go to another bar for an event that
>starts 11 PM.  Again, these are almost exclusively blind draw (read,
>social) events.

	This occurs around the Boston area also. Including the $$$ adds.
	And free appetizers/food/munchies/buffets. I believe there are
	blind draw tournaments almost every day of the week around here
	excepting league nights, Tuesday. There are other small, local
	in-house leagues and pro/money/competitions that are more formal
	than draw tournaments.

>Gabe, you know a guy from your area named Dave Kelly?  You know, big
>guy, ranked way up there in bristle darts?  What's he doing these
>days?  Promoting electronic darts maybe?

	Trying to anyway. You see, Dave makes his living off of darts. No
	other job to speak of, unlike maybe you and I. 	:-(
	Dave gets paid to represent companies that can make money selling
	dart related merchandise or beer. Dave will sell anything if you pay 
	him enough. As far as I know he has a local franchise for electronic
	darts, except it was for electronic steel-tips, not soft-tips.
	At least, that was what I had heard earlier this year. I haven't
	seen one operating bar with an electronic steel-tip machine. Of
	course,I haven't seen every bar in the area yet! :-) I have seen
	a few soft-tip machines in this area. I think, oh yes, there was
	1 in the North End of Boston in a little local bar. I can't recall
	off-hand where else I've seen them except in Seattle. It just isn't
	a real draw around here.

	Ok, ok. You wanna quit this pissing contest or what?
	I know, you just didn't like it when I called Seattle a "wimpy"
	area.
	How come you didn't get mad when I said New Foundland liked sheep!?
-gabe