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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.autism
Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 16:08:43 EDT
              <AUTISM@SJUVM.BITNET>
From:         RJKOPP@SUVM.BITNET
Subject:      Re: CREATIVE DRAMA

Erika,
   My daughter Shawna I'm sure came into some play therapy.  It was hard to
get it to seem like it was working.  I don't think pretending is strong in
Shawna's area either.  She will pretend to drink from a cup, although it's
hard to say if this is true pretend play, like some kids might do with their
teddy bears or something or if it's imitative of the play.  Just recently
she has finally started to do some of this with her dolls (mostly the big
ones 3' tall).  She is now at 9 years old and starting to do some pretend,
with them, like taking their temperature and giving them medicine.  But it
has been a long time since I beleive anyone really used play therapy in
school with her.  We do it at home occasionally, but it doesn't seem to
pick up much.  (We had tried pretty hard earlier).  Things like playing
her dolls are doing such and such or like pretending she is cooking on her
stove are not very common.  She does like to pretend she's stirring something
but I find that most of her pretend play is between two people only, with
little interaction with more than 2 except to see if we are watching her,
and little with other articles. So I think she is starting to do some
pretend play, I don't know if I could equate it to the therapy, since it
was so long ago, but either case it was long in coming and doesn't seem
as widespreadly used as in other typical kids.

Thanks,
Ray Kopp
Syracuse, New York
Internet:rjkopp@mailbox.syr.edu
Bitnet:RJKOPP@SUVM.BITNET
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Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 17:32:20 -0400
              <AUTISM@SJUVM.BITNET>
From:         "John M. Wobus" <jmwobus@MAILBOX.SYR.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Facilitated Communication Question
              29 Sep 92 06:57:13 EDT." <9209291108.AB07693@mailbox.syr.edu>

In message <9209291108.AB07693@mailbox.syr.edu> you write:
>John, it's possible to look at a refusal of "scientific
>inquiry" as indication of soemthing to hide ... or just simply
>a recognition that "scientific" in such an inquiry is a
>subjective term!!  (Remember how badly the media trashed Paul
>Linus over Vitamin C ... or more recently, the study that
>purported to show that Dyslexia doesn't exist by testing
>Kindergarten & first grade kids -- an age where the reversals
>of Dyslexia are "normal", and pointing out the normal
>maturation away from the reversals in "normal" kids as proof
>that dyslexia "doesn't exist") There seems to be as much
>unscientific fraudulance in those who "debunk" this or that,
>perhaps more, than any fraudulence in thos who develop the
>questional theories or practices. (Motivation by the developer
>may be clouded by his/her excitement, but the motivation of the
>debunker is no less clouded - they need to find something amiss
>in order to get published and keep their job!!)

So some people do bad science, and some journalists overemphasize the
possible-but-unproven conclusions of scientific studies that they
report on.  Does that mean don't check it out at all?  Poor science is
handled by time: subsequent studies had better come to the same
conclusion or the result is thrown out.  Most people will readily admit
that the human brain can pull lots of tricks on you, and that should
make them DEMAND scientific enquiry into something like f/c.

I suspect the problem is that the appropriate scientists have not found
the interest and/or resources to do all the studies that we want--and
the people promoting and/or using facilitated communication have no
desire to be scientists.  There is also the possible factor that the
latter people are afraid of what they will find (or have found).

John Wobus
Syracuse University
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Date:         Thu, 1 Oct 1992 07:04:09 EDT
              <AUTISM@SJUVM.BITNET>
From:         Anne Pemberton <apembert@VDOE386.VAK12ED.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Facilitated Communication Question
              "LNCJB@cc.newcastle.edu.au" at Sep 30, 92 2:36 pm

Ray's points are well taken ... in the event that the research
clearly points to the effectiveness of F/C it MAY open the
procedure to more children who can benefit from it.
Unfortunately, I'm not as confident as he is that "the truth"
is discovered by the "scientific" research methods commonly
employed. With Carolyn, I worry that because of the emotional
vulnerability of these children the ethical protections for
subjects in scientific research would be breached to the
detriment of the individual child, and to the validity of the
research as a whole.

    Seems to me that if this is to be done, it MUST be done in
a setting where the child is comfortable facilitating, not a
foreign "clinical setting", and conducted by people with whom
the child is already comfortable (a teacher, etc), and, if it
is NOT INTRUSIVE record the session on video, audio, etc tape
for analysis later. Unless the child is comfortable with
earphones, they should be used on the facilitator, but not the
child, and certainly use small ones so that when the child
LOOKS AT the facilitator he/she is not frightened by an
"unfamiliar" face. And in spite of these an other safeguards,
I'd still feel like validity was better addressed by looking at
those who've graduated to independent communication, look at
the amount of time it took, and the percentage of starters who
achieve that level and in what amount of time. AFTER science
has some clearer understanding of what is going on from the
autistic point of view, they may be in a better position to
extend research to those in the earlier staged of F/C than now.
After all, if you look at the output of an planted acorn too
early, you will not see the beautiful tree it can grow into!

    Anne
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Date:         Mon, 5 Oct 1992 20:08:17 EDT
              <AUTISM@SJUVM.BITNET>
From:         Erica Richards <6751R517@KENTVM.BITNET>
Subject:      CREATIVE DRAMA

Autism Subscribers-
     Hello.  My name is Erica Richards and I am a Kent State University student
 in Kent, Ohio.  My major is Speech Pathology and I am just starting my first S
peech Path classes as a Junior.  I am very interested in children and the way t
heir "little" minds work.  My hopes are to someday work with children.
     I've taken a few Creative Drama classes (We studied pantomime and pretend
play.) and we studied the many different aspects of how children play and how i
mportant "the art of playing" is to the normal development of social skills in
a child's life.  I was wondering if this, or a similar form, is ever used
   to help children with autism.  It seems like it would be a good tool to use.
What do you think?  I am also interesed in knowing some of the most common
   approaches or therapies used on autistic children, and which ones seem to be
the most effective.  I hope to hear from you.  Any input you have would be grea
tly appreciated.

Sincerely,
Erica Richards
6751R517@kentvm
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Date:         Mon, 28 Sep 1992 12:57:44 EDT
              <AUTISM@SJUVM.BITNET>
From:         RJKOPP@SUVM.BITNET
Subject:      Call in program

This is a post I picked up off of another list that seems very pertinent
to this list.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I was just riding in my car, listening to an interview with the mother
of an autistic child when an incredibly powerful moment happened: The
interviewer then asked the young man his opinion about what could have
been done to help him "come out" and he replied.

The opportunity to *hear* someone who had been autistic describe their
experience brought home his "humanity" in a way that pure intellectual
acceptance hadn't done before. The young man is named Sean Barron (spelling
may be different) and he and his mother have chronicled their experience in
a new book "There's a Boy Inside Here".

This is not the reason for my posting, however. This afternoon, at 2PM EDT
National Public Radio will be hosting a national call in show (Talk of the
Nation),  the topic: Can Autistic Children Learn, and discuss uses of  the
typewriter which are revolutionizing, etc, etc. As one who only peripherally
deals with special needs students, my lurking on these lists (the Chatback
Suite) has me certain that many of you would have an important contribution
to make to this national audience.  It is an 800 number, so if you are free at
2 PM EDT, tune in your local NPR station (they repeat the actual number every
few minutes) and share your experiences.

I hope you find this opportunity useful.
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Date:         Mon, 5 Oct 1992 13:33:24 EDT
              <AUTISM@SJUVM.BITNET>
From:         Daniel Mont <D6M@CORNELLA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Attachment to a computer
              5 Oct 1992 08:30:53 -0700 from <bennett@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>

Tom,

In regards to your question about being attached to a computer...

My son Alex loves computer games and nintendo games.  At about
age 4 he would rarely speak more than one sentence *except* when
he was either working on the computer or playing Nintendo.  Then
he would become very animated, laugh, and hold extended conversations,
either with himself or with other people involved with the computer
or Nintendo.  His language and interactive conversation skills have
progressed substantially since then but his only extended and animated
conversations are over very structured topics....how does a refrigerator
work, what is the infield fly rule in baseball, etc. etc.  Alex thrives
when there is a fair amount of structure.  I believe that is why he was
so drawn to computers and Nintendo (limited upredictability within a
clearly defined structure/set of rules) and that structure frees him
from worries, uncertainties, and processing too many inputs at any one
time.  However, he did not establish a relationship with the computer.
HOWEVER, it is extrememly common for children to establish a relationship
with inanimate objects. It's just that it is usually a stuffed animal, or
doll, or figurine.  My non-autistic son has many conversations with
his stuffed animals.  He babies them, scolds them, plays with them, and
sometimes tells me to leave the room so he can have a private conversation
with them.  So what your son is doing is *very* common. What is uncommon is
that it is with a computer.  But for an autistic child, I am not that
surprised.

Dan
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Date:         Mon, 5 Oct 1992 09:30:03 EDT
              <AUTISM@SJUVM.BITNET>
From:         Daniel Mont <D6M@CORNELLA.BITNET>
Subject:      Re: Making the first appoarch (Was Re: Poetic Gifts)
              4 Oct 1992 12:39:06 +1000 from <LNCJB@CC.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU>

On Sun, 4 Oct 1992 12:39:06 +1000 <LNCJB@CC.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU> said:
>"(JA Badner)" <jbadner@WORLD.STD.COM> writes:-
>
>>Well, I guess I don't make it into 'high-class' autistic.  I didn't
>>experience my sister's labor pains (or anyone else's physical pain).
>>However, I can experience other people's emotional pain (many of my
>>patients have told me that I can understand them in a way noone else has).
>>Does this put me in the 'upper middle class' autistic?
>
>Irrefutably! It seems to me that there would be no better profession for you
>than the one you have chosen with your 'autistic talents'. I am in awe of

I am confused.  Alex has definite difficulties in trying to think from
someone else's perspective.  It involves a lot of discussion to get him
to begin understanding how someone else is feeling.  I had always believed
that this was a function of his being autistic.  My non-autistic son, Simon,
is much, much more facile at this process.  It has actually been by
observing him and his friends that I have truly come to appreciate the
difficulties that Alex has.

You seem to infer that autistics have a certain "talent" for understanding
and empathizing with the feelings of others.  If you mean other autistic
people then I can understand. But if you mean all people, non-autistics
included, then I am really, really confused.  Of all fields to go into
I would guess that being a therapist would be one the most difficult
and most distasteful for Alex.

Dan
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Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 16:05:32 EDT
              <AUTISM@SJUVM.BITNET>
From:         Jennifer Masley <6751M853@KENTVM.BITNET>
Subject:      DMG Vitamin B15

Dear Curtis Maurand,
     I hope this doesn't sound too elementary to you, but I was
wondering if you could please explain to me what exactly the DMG
vitamin B15 is and what it does for the person with autism.  I
read in one of your memos that it helped Natalie to  communicate
better in all forms and that she was easier to deal with when she
was taking the drug.  What, briefly, does the drug do physiologically
in order to affect behavior in this way?
     Thank you for your time and help!
                             Jennifer Masley
                             6751m853@kentvm
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.autism
From: jbadner@world.std.com (JA Badner)
Subject: Re: Making the first appoarch (Was Re: Poetic Gifts)
Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 12:58:12 GMT

LNCJB@CC.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU writes:

>>Abby, my niece, must really be my love child (by Elvis?)
>>...nah, I saw my sister give birth to her.

>You would be irrefutably 'high-class' autistic if you actually 'experienced'
>the birth of your niece (shared your sister's labour pains). Have you had any
>experiences like this?

Well, I guess I don't make it into 'high-class' autistic.  I didn't 
experience my sister's labor pains (or anyone else's physical pain).
However, I can experience other people's emotional pain (many of my
patients have told me that I can understand them in a way noone else has).
Does this put me in the 'upper middle class' autistic?

Judy
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Date:         Tue, 29 Sep 1992 12:35:03 +1000
              <AUTISM@SJUVM.BITNET>
From:         LNCJB@CC.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU
Subject:      Re: Feeling left out.

Ray,

Yes, that was the point I was trying to make that Helen felt rejected because
the invitation to join in wasn't explicit. I'm sorry if it wasn't very clear.
The possibility that this was a 'learned' response had occurred to me, but
I can't recall any instance of her being 'rejected' in the past that could
account for it. Of course, I haven't been around to witness every single
occasion that this might have happened but to the best of my knowledge, it has
never occurred.

I always try to encourage Helen to do things for herself, but doing something
new for the first time is always hard to get her to do..... Her first response
is always "I can't!" I have just started having some success with getting her
to butter and cut her own bread at dinner times. Yet at other times, she will
attempt other tasks off her own bat...... she made me a cup of coffee one day
perfectly - except that she made it with cold water - she knew she wasn't to
touch hot water..... I drank it anyway. :-) A few months ago she also started
setting up the table at mealtimes which she does very well... Tony likes that
- it used to be one of his chores.

Perhaps a better tack for me to take would be to just let her initiate her
own involvement in various tasks - the only problem with this though is that
it would get even harder to get her to tackle tasks that we have routinely
done for her over the years. She can undress and bathe herself but she still
expects me to wipe and dress her and she still flatly refuses to try to brush
her own hair.

I had similar problems with Chris as a child..... but I don't remember him
being quite so obstinate as Helen is at times.

Carolyn
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.autism
From: jbadner@world.std.com (JA Badner)
Subject: Re: Making the first appoarch (Was Re: Poetic Gifts)
Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1992 14:06:26 GMT

LNCJB@CC.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU writes:

>One thing I've noticed about the people on this list is that if you 'wind us
>up' we have plenty to say.... but most of the time we only 'speak' when we
>have something that we consider important to say. There isn't the amount of
>'idle chatter' on this list that is found on many of the others. Has any one
>else noticed this? I find this very typically autistic. So Judy, why did you
>go away for so long? :-)

Because I didn't have anything important to say :-).  Seriously, that is
definitely true with me.  I don't make "small talk" (my size 
notwithstanding).  I also tend only to speak up if the point I have to
made is important AND no one else has expressed it.  So, unless I have
a unique contribution to make, I tend to stay silent (in verbal and
electronic forums).

Judy
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Date:         Sun, 4 Oct 1992 12:39:06 +1000
              <AUTISM@SJUVM.BITNET>
From:         LNCJB@CC.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU
Subject:      Re: Making the first appoarch (Was Re: Poetic Gifts)

"(JA Badner)" <jbadner@WORLD.STD.COM> writes:-

>Well, I guess I don't make it into 'high-class' autistic.  I didn't
>experience my sister's labor pains (or anyone else's physical pain).
>However, I can experience other people's emotional pain (many of my
>patients have told me that I can understand them in a way noone else has).
>Does this put me in the 'upper middle class' autistic?

Irrefutably! It seems to me that there would be no better profession for you
than the one you have chosen with your 'autistic talents'. I am in awe of
the amount of hard work and dedication it must have taken for you to achieve
and have succeeded in this profession. I had dreams of being a psychologist
at my second attempt at University... dashed to smithereens when I failed
my Psychology IIA exams. I abandoned a mathematical career in favour of
working with people.... so I guess I am a linguist by default. :-)

Carolyn
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Date:         Wed, 30 Sep 1992 12:29:15 EDT
              <AUTISM@SJUVM.BITNET>
From:         RJKOPP@SUVM.BITNET
Subject:      Re: Facilitated Communication Question

Carolyn,
   Thanks for the autistic viewpoint, to me it's a help.

   As for why some things are important to NORMAL people, some of our
reasoning also deals with the concerns you express.  You don't feel testing
is good because it might hurt the autistic child.  Many of us are reluctant
to put our children into a testing situation or to introduce new techniques
such as facilitation for the same reason, that FC at first can be frustrating
to the child, these parents want to see research results so that they know
they aren't putting their child through the stress for something that won't
work anyway.

    This is a battle that me and my wife often face, is the testing that
so and so suggested or recommended, going to produce anything that would
offset the frustration that this test is going to cause my daughter, Shawna.
Is it something that will help her in the future or is it something that
can only put a name on something but doesn't change anything in the way
we are currently treating her. Is it something that can make her life
more rewarding to her.

Thanks,
Ray Kopp
Syracuse, New York
Internet:rjkopp@mailbox.syr.edu
Bitnet:RJKOPP@SUVM.BITNET
From: LNCJB@CC.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.autism
Subject: Re: Making the first appoarch (Was Re: Poetic Gifts)
Date: 6 Oct 92 05:17:48 GMT
              <AUTISM@SJUVM.BITNET>
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Anne wrote:

>    Just a thought --- are you sure that this is a quality of the
>manifestation of the personality of the individual/s involved??

Distinct possibility! Looking back I realised that Chris displayed some of
these characteristics when he waa pre-schooler, but he became less 'sensitive'
to other's feelings as he aged and became more 'egocentric'.

Carolyn

(PS. I'm having trouble with the mailer today, so I hope this comes through
without a lot of garbage in it.)
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Date:         Tue, 6 Oct 1992 01:42:33 +1000
              <AUTISM@SJUVM.BITNET>
From:         LNCJB@CC.NEWCASTLE.EDU.AU
Subject:      Re: Making the first appoarch (Was Re: Poetic Gifts)

Dan,

The ability to empathize with other people appears to be a 'sex-difference'
in autistic people, although it is possible that it comes with maturation. I
have never observed it in young autistic males, but it always seems to be
present in autistic females of any age to some degree. Both groups appear to
become more 'sensitive' after puberty but it usually doesn't reach it peak
 untilthe age of about 30 or so. That's been my experience, anyway.

Carolyn
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Date:         Mon, 5 Oct 1992 08:30:53 -0700
              <AUTISM@SJUVM.BITNET>
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              bennett@MILTON.U.WASHINGTON.EDU
From:         Thomas Bennett <bennett@U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject:      Attachment to a computer

When my son was about 5 years old he seemed to be more attached to his
computer than to people, at least as far as communicating with them. He
had a computer with a voice synthesizer that I got for him, and he ran
programs to do simple math problems. He would rarely communicate with a
human, to the extent that we were not sure he could talk at all. However,
he would carry on very animated conversations with the computer, not just
answering the questions of the computer, but finding ways to get the
program out of kilter so he could then tell the computer who was boss.

Has anyone else seen or experienced a case like this where a person
appeared to develop a human attachment to a machine, or at least to
communicate with a machine in a very human way? I have heard of other
cases where people on kidney dialysis machines form similar attachments.

Tom Bennett
University of Washington School of Nursing
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