From: ae642@yfn.ysu.edu (Kelley Miller)
Subject: Re: Let's end this dual-sided flame war!
Reply-To: ae642@yfn.ysu.edu (Kelley Miller)
Organization: St. Elizabeth Hospital, Youngstown, OH
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1992 02:39:33 GMT







[Note...It never ceases to amaze me when someone post a message saying they
don't want to bash, then spend the next hundred lines bashing.  To wit:]


cvafy006@@vmsb.is.csupomona.edu (some moron without the courage to post his 
name) says:


>Here...read this...if you dare!!!

>To all those who are misunderstood (both "gay/lesbian" and "straight"):
>
>	Believe it or not, I decided to search this newsgroup not because
>I decided to do some "gay bashing", but because I wanted so see where our
>nation's views on homosexuality are.  As, I myself am straight (hetrosexual),
>I don't condone what homosexuals do.  I personally find the idea of a man
>SEXUALLY attracted to another man, or for that matter. a woman SEXUALLY
>attracted to another woman to be disgusting...

No, you're not here to do any bashing...right...

>it's not "natural".  

Yep.  Forget the fact that there are several examples of homosexuality in 
the animal world...Oh, but I forgot...humans aren't animals...

>I mean let's
>face it, how manymales get charged with sexual harrassment of another male...
>and how many females get charged with sexual harrassment of another female?

I see.  So since gay persons don't sexually harass people, they're not
"Natural"...

Do you have any idea how SICK that sounds?
  
>Although I don't condone the lifestyle of a homosexual, I cannot say that
>a homosexual can't practice his/her lifestyle.  

You don't "condone the lifestyle" of a homosexual.  Would you care to explain
exactly what that means?  Or is your only objection about the "homosexual
lifestyle" the fact that homosexuals occasionally have sex with one another?


>However, there has to be
>some way of sorting this mess out.  I'll go ahead and try to do that...
>and to be fair, I'll START with the heterosexuals and THEN go to the
>homosexuals.  Be warned...you will both be criticized...for both of you need
>to learn a thing or two.

I see.  So you have all the answers.  That's refreshing to know.

>
>	Hetrosexuals -- most of you will at some time become attracted to
>a member of the opposite sex.  You are following the "natural" order of
>nature.  You can follow the sexual cycle (if you choose to) and maybe will
>have get married.  Heck, you might even want to have children.  Remember this:
>you were given the freedom of choice, and you CHOSE to live this lifestyle
>(like I chose to live as a hetrosexual), but that does not mean that others
>don't have a different choice.
>

You CHOSE to be a heterosexual?  Are you saying here that you were attracted
to both men and women, and chose the opposite of yourself?


>	Understand, there are homosexuals and even "asexuals" (people who
>recognize NO sex).  They have the freedom to live as they want to.  As everyone
>has freedom of speech, you are free to advocate or express your dissent about
>any issue you want to...including choice of lifestyle.  But, that's your
>boundary!  A lot of you cross it!  Calling someone a "queer" or any form of
>the slang word "fag" may be within your right to free speech, but to VANDALIZE
>the property (ie, ETCHING something like "Die Fag", or to PHYSICALLY assault
>and/or kill someone because of their lifestyle is criminal.  (Although I myself
>don't advocate homosexuality, if you were tried in a court where I was a judge
>and I tried you for vandalism -- you would have to pay for all the damage.  If
>I tried you for assault -- you'd get jail time.  If I tried you for killing
>ANYONE (not just homosexuals) -- I would give you the death penalty...forget
>about life in prison!)  If you wish for the homosexuals to get along with you...
>you must do what this country has just learned to do...COMPROMISE!  Haven't you
>learned by now from our history that an attempt to dominate people causes a
>revolution???

Surprisingly, with the exception of the threat of the death penalty (something
I am opposed to), I agree with the observations above.

>
>	For you who are gay or lesbian...now it's your turn to listen up!  I
>am a Roman Catholic, 

Well, that explains a lot.

>which is why I find your lifestyle disgusting.  However, 
>in all fairness, I will not deny you the right to live as you wish.  You
>have the freedom to hold hands in public if you want to, kiss each other if you
>want to, and otherwise function as every citizen can.  

Gee, that's "mighty white" of you.  Are you also going to give us protection
and recourse when a gang of teenage (or older) phobes smash our skulls in
for doing so?  Or are you, as a good Roman Catholic, going to help continue
the work started with Oregon measure 9 and Colorado measure 2, where it was
attempted to remove such protection?

>However, there are
>certain conditions that you too must adhere too.  You CHOSE to be homosexual
>(whether or not it's medical or not is not 100% proven yet...), but at the same
>time, let the others live as they want to also.
>

This old saw?  If you truly believe that sexual orientation is a choice, why
don't you try to "choose" to be a homosexual for a week?  You can't, anymore
then a homosexual can "choose" to be a heterosexual for a week.  True, we have
a choice on whether we decide to express our love for one another sexually or
spend the rest of our lives alone and celebate, but if you are gay or straight,
you are gay or straight, and no amount of "choosing" to sleep with another man
or woman is going to change that fact.


>	You too have the freedom of speech.  If irate hetrosexuals bash you
>verbally, respond with a counter verbal bashing!  If you feel you are wronged,
>seek counsel and justice.  

Should we also stand there while someone decides to beat us to a bloody pulp,
while others stand around laughing (including, in some cases, the cops)?  
Or do you give us permission to defend ourselves?


>However, a lot of you feel you can do EVERYTHING you
>want to...and sometimes that is a problem...flame me if you wish, but here
>goes!
>
>	You often complain that a movie or sit-com doesn't give enough
>recognition to homosexuals...but do they have to?  Are you paying for the
>airtime...or are they?  I'm sure that if you wanted to produce a show and show
>it, they would let you...if not, then there's always legal action.
>

Funny...I've never seen anyone here object to there not being enough gay and
Lesbian people portrayed in the popular media...only that when they are, it's
only in the most negative way (thankfully, though, that is now changing.)


>	Don't call those who are uncomfortable about your presence ignorant.
>They know about your lifestyle, and that "scares" some of them.  

Oh bullshit.  If straight people really knew about our so-called "lifestyle"
instead of the kind of garbage you and your ilk dish out, there would be no
fear.  They would know that the only real difference between gay people and
straight people is the fact that gay people are emotionally and sexually 
attracted to persons of our own gender.  Nothing more.

Instead, folks like you propagate the rumor that we'll fuck anything that 
moves, molest children, and try to recruit straight people into our perverse
"lifestyle".

Bah.

>Don't slam them for their discomfort, give them time to adapt.  

Sure.  We've only been around forever.  What's a few more millenia.

>Remember, white people 
>are just beginning to START feeling comfortable around SELECT black people.  
>It takes time to adapt...don't rush things...or you'll get more heat from the 
>hate groups than you'll want.  

More heat from the hate groups...Are you serious?

You mean more then the random violence against gay people on the streets
simply because we walk hand in hand with our loved ones?  You mean more
hate then the systematic attempts to take away our rights to equal protection
under the law?  You mean it will get worse then the current governmental
policy of legalized exclusion of gay and Lesbian people, even though we
pay our taxes?

Surely you jest.


>Sure, there's legal action...but if your 
>movements piss off the presiding judge...you've lost the case before you 
>started.  It's unfair, but people aren't cyborgs...they are human -- and 
>although some are open-minded, others are closed-minded or corrupt!
>

Oh?  And give grounds for a new trial for the reason of judicial pre-
disposition?

>	I have to give a big thumbs down on the "gays in the military" issue.
>A unit has to function as a unit...and if someone is prejudiced against or
>uncomfortable with a person in the unit...the unit can die.  Remember, a chain
>is as strong as it weakest link.  Maybe after a while the military will accept
>homosexuals...but once again, change can't happen overnight...give it time.

Uh-huh.  The very same argument used by bigots and racists in the late
forties when Truman ended the racial segregation in the service.

Guess what: None of the horrors predicted ever happened, and it won't this
time, either.

And again, how long would you have us wait?  We've been waiting for ever.

>
>	Also, if you want to get married or have kids via artifical methods...
>so be it.  The problem is that some of you want press.  I don't see the news
>covering marriages of hetrosexuals (other than celebrities), so why should you
>be any different.  

Indeed?  Ever looked in the society section of any newspaper?  They're full of
wedding and engagement announcements.

>Remember, with equal rights comes equal priveleges, equal
>responsibilites, and compromise.  If you want your way, go for it.  If you fail
>than seek justice.  Just don't try to stir up trouble over the whole nation for
>a failed wedding.  Find another church.  Failing that, I really can't help you
>too much.  All I can suggest is to try to go with the flow and change will
>come. 

There's that "wait for it" garbage again...

>Remember, a lot of couples have sexual relationships without being 
>marriwed anyway.  While that in itself is another moral issue, it is one that
>is less heated than this one!  Should you choose to make yourself stand out,
>than you are accepting all recognition coming your way...both praise and
>hate/dissent.
>

WRONG.  We want only what the rest of the population has.

	-the right to marry the person we love
	-the right to live our lives as we see fit, without the condemnation
	 of society, based on the words of the church
	-the right to work where we are qualified and live where we can 
	 afford, instead of being fired or evicted because of our romantic
	 life.

That's not an attempt to make ourselves "stand out".  It's an attempt to
blend in to a society where we give so much, and can give so much more.

>	I have tried to discard my religious bias in analyzing both side of the
>homosexual vs. hetrosexual issue.  

You have failed miserably.


>I myself have stated that I find homosexuality to be disgusting.  

And I find bigotry to be disgusting.

>Please note:  that is part of my freedom of
>speech...flame me as you wish, but I don't have to change my view unless I want
>to.  I have also told the hetrosexuals to, essentially, not disgrace the
>nation.  People have freedom of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.  
>Just because you don't LIKE something does mean that that something a person 
>believes in doesn't deserve the same freedom! If something appears to infringe 
>upon one of your rights, seek legal action.  I am aware of bias in the 
>courts...so then appeal!  This goes for BOTH SIDES!
>

Fine.  Grant homosexual persons the EXACT SAME RIGHTS AND PRIVELEDGES EVERY
HETEROSEXUAL HAS, and the disgrace will end.


>	Hopefully, from now on the two sexual orientations will work towards
>compromise and they will adapt to society.  Let's end this immature flame war,
>and in general -- whether for sexual orientation, political bias, or whatever:

You would dare make a statement like this, after the degree of hatred and 
intolerance you have posted here?
I suggest you look in a mirror...you haven't gotten your own message.


>
>	 LET PEOPLE BE PEOPLE...IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM, VOICE IT.  IF YOU HAVE A
>REASON TO BELIEVE THAT A FREEDOM HAS BEEN VIOLATED, SEEK LEGAL ACTION!  (JUST
>MAKE SURE THAT YOUR VOICE IS FOR A BONA FIDE CAUSE...NONE OF THIS NITPICK SHIT
>OR MAKING UP CLAIMS OR DISCRIMINATION [THAT GOES FOR BOTH SIDES!] TO GAIN AN
>UNFAIR "EDGE" ON THE OTHER SIDE.  ACCORDING TO RODNEY KING, "CAN'T WE ALL JUST
>GET ALONG?"  SIMPLY SAID, BUT RIGHT TO THE FACT.  LET'S WORK TOWARDS GETTING
>ALONG...THROUGH COMPROMISE AND VOCAL CONFLICT IF NECESSARY.  THAT'S WHAT MAKES
>THIS COUNTRY THE "UNITED STATES OF AMERICA"!

Sorry.  Sometimes a person must make a stand against injustice, and this is 
our stand.  There can be no compromise.  It is time for equality, and nothing
less is acceptable.

Live with it.

 

-- 
*...your Friendly Neighborhood Atheist  /\/\   HATE IS NOT A  *         
*                    Kelley L. Miller  / /  \  FAMILY VALUE   *            
*                  ae642@yfn.ysu.edu  / /____\                *  
*     GIGO: Gospel In--Garbage Out   /______\                 *
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality