From: dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu
Newsgroups: talk.rape
Subject: More on Atyalor's lies. (Repeat)
Date: 13 Aug 92 01:40:12 EST
Followup-To: alt.flame
Organization: University of Toledo, Computer Services

In article <ATAYLOR.92Aug12142225@gauss.nmsu.edu>, ataylor@nmsu.edu (Nosy) writes:
> 	<ATAYLOR.92Aug11165941@gauss.nmsu.edu>
> 	<1992Aug12.011204.9345@uoft02.utoledo.edu>
> Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 21:22:25 GMT
> Lines: 80
> 
> In article <1992Aug12.011204.9345@uoft02.utoledo.edu> dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu writes:
> 
> <Give it up. I would not stand up here in public and dare you to prove me wrong
> <and show my inconsistancies IF I had been inconsistant.
> 
> 
> 	No?
> 
> ====================================================================
> From: dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu
> Newsgroups: talk.rape
> Subject: Re: Critisizing the victim?
> Date: 5 Aug 92 11:52:54 EST
> Organization: University of Toledo, Computer Services
> 
> [text deleted to try to save bandwidth]
> 
> <Your world is an idealistic place which we must all try to achieve. However,
> <until we achieve Utopia, some of us relaize we have to live in this world. If
> <the man walking down the street with the bulging cash was stupid, the woman in
> 							           ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> <the bad situation she should know to avoid is also stupid. Yes or no, your
>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> <opinion?
>
> [text deleted to save bandwith]

Ataylor, THIS EXACT QUOTE was addressed yesterday, and I am shocked that even
you would slimily try to re-post what you know to be CONTRARY to what you are
claiming. You are perfectly aware that this is NOT referring to rape victims,
it is referring only to people who willfully engage in high risk behaviors.
Whether or not they are attacked does NOT enter into the equation, and therfore
does not even come close to what you have been claiming I have said!

Tell the truth--are you too stupid to understand such when it is explained to
you, or or you hoping that I'll just get tired of pointing out how wrong, and
what an intentional liar, you are?

Text deleted to save bandwith--right. More like truth deleted to try and cover
your mistakes.


> 
> <Sure, any man has the right to do any of these things, and it would be nice to
> <live in a a society where his rights are respected. However, any man, or woman,
> <who believes such a world exists, or expects it to exist, is being stupid.
>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> ===========================================================================
> 
> 	So, people who expect others to obey the law are "stupid".

Well, I suppose I was calling people with your idealistic viewpoint, who COUNT
ON people obeying the law, stupid, yes. I am sure you remember that the
focus of said post was not rape victims, but YOU.

You may not like the fact that I point out your stupidity, but, that, as with
all of your attempts and justifying your fake 'quotes' is not what was
called for.

Seriously, if you wanted to prove that I felt YOUR views were stupid, you
didn't have to go culling through old posts--you should have just asked. I
would have been happy to say "Yes, I have called you stupid in the past. And,
based upon you feeble attempts at defending yourself by falsifying material
about me, I am still calling you stupid."
 

> 
> 	Here's another one.
> 
> ===========================================================================
> From: dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu
> Newsgroups: talk.rape
> Subject: Re: Critisizing the victim?
> Date: 5 Aug 92 12:17:56 EST
> Organization: University of Toledo, Computer Services
> 
> In article <1992Aug5.021755.10127@news.cs.indiana.edu>, Amy Young Leith <alyoung@kiwi.ucs.indiana.edu> writes:
>> In article <1992Jul28.074010.8993@uoft02.utoledo.edu> dcrosgr@uoft02.utoledo.edu writes:
>> 
>>>Your comments, though valid are NOT politically correct. That is like saying
>>>jogging through Central Park at night is asking to be mugged. Or for a man to
>>>walk downtown in an expensive suit at night is asking to be mugged. Or leaving
>>>lots of packages on the car seat is begging to have the window broken.
>> 
> 
> 
>> 
>> What does "politically correct" have to do with it?  If respecting the
>> property, personal, and legal rights of others is anything, simply
>> "right" would be the term I'm thinking of.  
> 
> His comments were not politically correct because they were not entirely
> sypathetic to the rape victim, and dared to depict that maybe some of them were
> stupid in what they did and, while not wanting to be raped, sure invited it.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Let me get this staright--where I am explaining the meaning I percieve of
someone else's post, you then state that what he said--as I am trying to
clarify it--is now what I have said???

Oh please Ataylor. I know you are struggling, but when I am stating what I
think someone else has said, that is not the same thing as if it is my opinion. 

Although, on second consideration, it looks like maybe this was not an innocent
mistake upon your part. You did leave out the post I was commenting on, and did 
edit the post so it looked like I was advocating my own view instead of merely
commenting on someone else's views...hmmm...

I don't know. Starting to look like another one of your deliberate lies!

> 
>>  Going to a frat
>>>party alone and getting plowed while wearing sexy clothing virtually assures
>>>you will have sex with at least one of the brothers. (Please note, going with a
>>>friend, wearing drab clothing, and drinking nothing but coke does NOT decrease
>>>the odds to zero.) Now, what they did was wrong, but what she did was stupid.

Please note that, as I have stated in the past, the focus of this is not the
fact that she was raped, but that she made herself into an easy target. This is 
not your best shot, I hope, as I repeated the exact same position yesterday,
and the day before! And, it goes back to the example of the man walking down
the street with cash bulging out of his pockets--this is all behaviour which
not only invites, but begs for attack.

It does not matter if she is raped, her behavior was stupid as she placed
herself at a higher state of risk. It is NOT the fact she gets raped, if she
does--it is the fact she does the equivelent of coating herslef with chum
before going swimming--just as the man with the cash is doing.

At no point does that quote (and, I DO appreciate the fact that you did not
make this one up, nor try to pretend someone else's words were my post) state
"Rape victims are stupid." or "Woemn who wear short skirts are stupid." or
"Women who go to frat parties are stupid." or "Women who drink are stupid.", or
any of the other 'quotes' you have made up and tried to pin on me.

> 
> =========================================================================
> 
> 
> 	Well, DC, are you ready to admit your error and
> 	move on or not?

Well, I do believe that the one of us who has been consistantly wrong SHOULD
admit their error. However, you have been quite deliberate in 'manufacturing'
both my supposed 'quotes' and your responses. You have refused to admit your
dishonesty when pointed out, or even try to defend it as a mistake.

1. You jumped all over me for saying things I did not say.
2. You got pissed when I asked you to defend you off-the-wall rebuttals.
3. You started calling me names (supposedly to 'get (my) attention')
4. When I defended my postion, you accused me of starting a flame war.
5. You twisted clauses out of context, and then said it was due to my
"fragmented style" (which I notice you stil have not explained--no surprse
there though)
6. You took material out of context in an effort to keep from being forced to
admit your error.
7. You took posts other people wrote and claimed they were mine when you KNEW
they were not.
8. You then claim that I attacked you in an egotistical attempt to see my 
name in print!
9. You vainly try to get in the last word here by switching the follow-up to
alt.flame (while, of course, never moving yourself there)
10 And to top it all off, you then state that I should admit I was wrong.

Well, I hope you are smart enough to slink away quietly but, as you won't, I'll
be back on tomorrow to point out more of your dishonesty.

DC