From: cwagner@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Christian Wagner)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: ShadowRun HEROIC??? (was Re: Burn, GURPS...)
Date: 24 Jan 1993 23:53:44 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin TX
NNTP-Posting-Host: mickey.cc.utexas.edu

In article <1993Jan24.170729.15202@Princeton.EDU> mfterman@phoenix.princeton.edu (Mutant for Hire) writes:
>In article <1jubsrINN4k2@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>, cwagner@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Christian Wagner) writes:
>><chuckles at the wonderful SR pseudo-slang> Tell me, Axly, would you play a 
>>character like Slick Henry (from _Mona Lisa Overdrive_) in SR? Someone with no
>>cybercrap, no ultra-skills, no real advantages to speak of except being an 
>>interesting character?
>Of course you're right. Just like that support book Shadowbeat, where they
>give rules for playing journalists and rock stars, which we all know are
>combat monsters of the highest order. They also give suggestions for how to
>stage adventures for some of these types, which we all know involve the
>character tossing grenades and spells left and right.

Who the hell mentioned combat monsters? I'm talking about mega-characters,
period, whether they're mega-fighters, mega-deckers, or mega-rockstars. 

An overly-powerful character is an overly-powerful character, whether their
abilities are to kill a hundred people or influence a hundred people's 
opinions. 

Besides, ShadowBeat was crap. Rules for creating -news stories- fer Christ's
sake? Hasn't Fasa ever heard of GM decision based on roleplaying? 

>Besides, I can create a corp character easily using the rules. The question
>is, whether my GM will run a campaign where all those non-combat skills will
>be needed and helpful.

Well, he better not run any of the modules, or use all that -lovely- hardware
listed in books, 90% of which is there to make one a better killing machine.

>You could for example create an investigative team. That is, one that doesn't
>do the combat stuff like extractions and runs, but pieces together information
>for other people. A private investigation team. At that point combat skills
>become less important, and other things like contacts and social skills, which
>make for fun and interesting roleplaying. That's part of what Shadowbeat has
>for the journalist stuff. A journalist is supposed to gather information, not
>shoot it up.

No shit. ShadowBeat, however, treats reporting like combat. No thanks.

>>Wonder-schmucks like Cowboy and Molly have a place in cyberpunk, yes, but in 
>>SR, -everyone- is like Cowboy, or Molly, or Case. Due to the very nature of 
>>the game, you -can't- play an interesting character, because the game is 
>>basically one firefight after another, in search of a particular person/chip/
>>diskette/demonic artifact/bigger gun. 
>That's because of the most general role that the books give for the characters.
>I hope you're imaginative enough not to simply limit yourself to the fact that
>PC's have to be shadowrunners because that's what most of the books have stuff
>for. I can think of plenty of non-runner adventures that can be done. Playing
>politics in London between the Druids and Elves? Lots of possibilities.

Yeah, lots of possibilites. Very little of which gets mentioned except as 
reasons for the PC's to get hired to go steal/kill something/someone. 

Look, one can do very interesting campaigns set in -any- universe, if one is
willing to work at it. This is a net.axiom. But, IMHO, the ShadowRun universe
is derivative, phony-feeling, and lacking in depth, with almost everything
designed around the bloody 'Shadowrun' player coercion method. 

Even if people like you run good adventures/campaigns/whatevers, I have never,
myself, seen any SR game run as anything more than AD&D with guns. 

>Besides, I look at the GURPS CP adventure book and what do I find? Lots of
>runs with lots of combat potential. Gee whiz, are we claiming that GURPS CP
>is better because of the lowered emphasis on combat and runs? Maybe its the
>fact that SR has a lot more modules published for it than GURPS CP. If the
>only superiority of GURPS CP is that since there are so few modules published
>for it, people are generally forced to invent their own worlds and runs,
>which don't have to be combat oriented, then its hardly better at all.

<sigh> The GURPS CP adventure book is irrelevant, as GURPS CP != GURPS CP 
Adventures. It's entirely possible to run shit cyberpunk campaigns in GURPS
as well, but there isn't an undercurrent of 'special ops' in GURPS CP, or 
Cyberpunk 2020, or even <gaaaaah> CyberSpace. What I'm talking about here is 
how Shadowrun is wrapped around a basically flawed idea, that of
'Shadowrunning', which then influences everything else, and leads to a flawed
background and game system. 

If someone out there is running a SR game without 'runs', or with a deeper 
level of character design/interaction/characterization, -good-. But I don't
see anything beyond dungeon crawling in the original SR books.
-- 
    "Well, do you ever get the feeling that the Story's too damn real
                        and in the present tense?"
               Christian Wagner - cwagner@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu 
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.advocacy