HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee)
Subject: Prayer (was Re: Re^6: Atheism and Intelligence)
Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept.
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 02:10:17 GMT

In article <cJmkwB2w165w@cybernet.cse.fau.edu> waldo@cybernet.cse.fau.edu (Todd J. Dicker) writes:
>I try to look beyond the literal meaning of the prayer.  "Blessed are
>You, raiser of the dead," is not taken any more literally than prayers 
>asking for rain.  The phrases we add during the winter to bring rain 
>perform an important function in attuning ourselves to the cycle of 
>nature, to contemplating the frailty of life and our need for life 
>sustaining processes, and bring our thoughts to Israel where the rain is 
>supposed to fall.  We don't really expect that it will rain because we 
>added the phrases, but it is the EFFECT of saying the phrases that shapes 
>our mind and spirit while we pray.

Here's a hypothetical.

Imagine that the standard prayers do not ask for rain.  Imagine instead that
they request a dry spell (but that weather conditions in Israel stay the same).

What would the explanation for the prayer look like?  Maybe something like
this:

"You miss a great deal if you look only at the literal words of the prayer for
dryness in Israel.  While it's certainly true that a dry spell is the last
thing farmers need, we must remember that we are not really asking God for a
dry spell--God decides what weather to send according to his will, and doesn't
change his mind just because some human demands otherwise.  So we don't expect
worse weather merely because we pray to God for dry weather.  However, by
praying for a dry spell, we impress upon ourselves the concept that it is God
that is responsible for all sorts of weather, wet or dry, and if this is the
season for dry spells, then God made it so, and he has his own reason for doing
so.  Thus we praise God for making dry spells in Israel, even if it's the dry
season and Israeli farmers need more water, because the prayer's effect is to
help our mind and spirit by recognizing God's rule over all things, not to make
our crops parched.

I can't help but feel that such explanations are added after the fact, and that
anything, even things opposite to what we actually do, could be explained away
just as easily.
--
"On the first day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Leftover Turkey!
On the second day after Christmas my truelove served to me...  Turkey Casserole
    that she made from Leftover Turkey.
[days 3-4 deleted] ...  Flaming Turkey Wings! ...
   -- Pizza Hut commercial (and M*tlu/A*gic bait)

Ken Arromdee (arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu, arromdee@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu)
From: skh4161@mvs.draper.com (Kjeld Hvatum)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: mega society
Date: 31 Dec 92 09:19:00 GMT
Organization: Draper Laboratory


>From: Eric Roberts <roberts@gaul.csd.uwo.ca>
>Message-ID: <1992Dec31.055945.15544@julian.uwo.ca>
>
>Does anyone here know what test is used by the Mega Society? Does anyone
>have a sample test, or know where I could get one?

The Mega Society accepts the Mega Test and the LAIT.  You can
obtain the Mega Test from:

   Ronald  K. Hoeflin
   PO Box 539
   New York,  NY 10101
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Howard Stern
From: chisnall@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (The Technicolour Throw-up)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 13:50:39 GMT
Organization: Computer Science,University of Canterbury,New Zealand

From article <1992Dec20.194915.17148@ncsu.edu>, by cjdcosta@eos.ncsu.edu (CHRISTOPHER J DCOSTA):
> Don't know why I'm doing this.. Maybe in hopes of a change of scenery?
> Anyway, the Howard Stern (sp?) issue appeared to merit a lot of time on
> 'Nightline' and even a mention on David Brinkley. If anyone has sides to
> take or analyses to present, lets hear from you?

What does this have to do with mensa or IQ's?  What's wrong with using
alt.fan.howard-stern?  (remember that r.o.m goes around the world, and most
nonamericans have never heard of him - unless they've read the a.f.h FAQ)

> We really need a new thread.

why?  I don't recall seeing anything in the charter for this group saying
that it always had to be chock full of interesting things (let alone over
xmas).

--
Just my two rubber ningis worth.
Name: Michael Chisnall  (chisnall@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz)
I'm not a .signature virus and nor do I play one on tv.
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: heflin@rtsg.mot.com (Suzanne Stratton Heflin)
Subject: Re: Atheism and Intelligence
Organization: Motorola Inc., Cellular Infrastructure Group
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 15:56:07 GMT

quest@iowegia.uucp (Steve J. Quest) writes:

>        I stand on my own in this world, but do require the 
>support of other fellow humans- not deities.  I am an atheist, and 
>I am in a great minority.

>        I want to point out at this point that just because one 
>has a high IQ does not mean that they are logical in thought.  
>True logic discounts the existence of god, but not everyone 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Really?  Can you discuss the "pure and true logic" that you used
to make this statement?

>(common thread amongst believers- they are often poor and 
>uneducated.  The greater their poverty and lack of education the 
>more likely they will become devoutly religious.  All people fall 
>between these rails, of devout believers and atheists- and a scale 
>`could' be drawn to show relation......)

What a stereotype!  And please make a difference in your bigoted
comments between "devout believers" and "devoutly religious."  They
are not the same at all!

From: seghers@hpkslx.mayfield.HP.COM (David Seghers)
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 21:33:34 GMT
Subject: Re: What is God? (Was: Atheism and Intelligence)
Organization: HP Response Center Lab
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa

>/ hpkslx:rec.org.mensa / bl275@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dan Diaz) /  8:40 pm  Dec 18, 1992 /
>
>perfect freedom is incompatible with both limited and unlimited
>omniscience.  

Hmmm, limited omniscience.  Isn't this a bit contradictory?  Is this
like "just a little bit of infinity"?

>
>-- 
>Dizzy Dan         ddiaz@cwru.bitnet      bl275@cleveland.freenet.edu
>----------

Animist and general heretic (have religion, will poke fun),

David Seghers (seghers@hpcc01.HP.COM) 415-691-3730

************************************************************************
Solipsist Society, Founding Member  (I think, therefore you are.)

Charter member of the "I HATE vi!" Club.
************************************************************************
The statements and opinions above are my own, entirely my own, and no one
else's.
From: skh4161@mvs.draper.com (Kjeld Hvatum)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Race vs. Intelligence
Date: 21 Dec 92 15:52:00 GMT
Organization: Draper Laboratory


>From: "Eric C. S. Dynamic" <ecsd@tfs.com>
>Message-ID: <1992Nov21.091950.6118@tfs.com>
>
>Meanwhile - I prefer to err on the side of seeing no prima facie reason to
>assume that external differences - shape of nose, lips, eyes, skin color, etc.
>modify things such as brain chemistry, neural organization, etc.
>We know that blacks are (at average) better at short-distance races and white
>at longer-distance races; so physiologically, they've adapted to their
>physical surroundings in some way that was needed, for whatever reason. But
>I can't imagine why nature would require a (relative) sacrifice of intelligence
>- that for some external physical reason, whites were 'required' to adapt by
>becoming smarter. The physical world offers pretty much the same challenges
>everywhere - gotta hunt and farm, gotta trade, gotta gather in groups, gotta
>have wars.

So why is there such a variety of species in almost every type of
biological environment, when they ultimately came from the same
ancestors?  The more similar they were, the more similar their needs.
How did variation come about?  Granted, all humans today are extremely
close genetically.  But how would you have explained the existence of
the Neanderthals, who, by almost any evolutionary time scale, walked the
earth only an instant ago?  Or would you like to assume they were
just as smart as us?

As for nature requiring a sacrifice of certain abilities or organs, cave
studies have clearly shown that, without need, abilities and organs can
atrophy faster than they evolved (cave animals have no color and can't
see).  It seems plausible that something as supposedly genetically
complex to maintain as intelligence might atrophy rather quickly without
selection (I'm speaking of a time scale a bit longer than what would
pertain to arguments about low academic achievers having more children
in modern society, etc.).
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa,soc.culture.jewish,alt.atheism,alt.slack
From: bl275@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dan Diaz)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Triple Nine Society
Date: 23 Dec 1992 05:54:12 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: bl275@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Dan Diaz)
NNTP-Posting-Host: hela.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, clong@romulus.rutgers.edu (Chris Long) says:

>Are they still in business?  I haven't gotten anything from them
>in quite a while.  IMHO their journal is the most interesting one
>around.

So they have a nice journal, but is there any other reason to join?  Why
does anyone have a need for high IQ societies other than Mensa? Is there
something I am missing?  Is it perhaps that some people need an extra
ego boost by joining 999 or 9999 or whatever?  I cant imagine that the AG's
of such societies are very large.  Oy vey.
-- 
Dizzy Dan         ddiaz@cwru.bitnet      bl275@cleveland.freenet.edu
Department of Molecular Genetics - Albert Einstein College of Medicine
"My opinions are my own, and they should be yours as well"
From: dell+@cs.cmu.edu (Dellera)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Mensa abroad--Germny?
Date: 31 Dec 92 13:56:28 GMT
Article-I.D.: cs.C04Mq4.5FK.1
Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon



I have been living abroad for a while, and am interested in re-joining
Mensa.  Does anybody know if the group is active in Germany?  I don't 
have an up-to-date directory with names and addresses of international 
group contacts.

I'd welcome mail (for the next week or so--home for christmas) from anyone
with thoughts or experience to share about Mensa abroad. 

--Kim Dellera
  (dell@koz.garnet.cs.cmu.edu)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart)
Subject: Re: Silica gel was: IQ Test?
Organization: AT&T
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1993 20:13:45 GMT

In article <Geoff.6hy0@equinox.gen.nz> Geoff@equinox.gen.nz (Geoff Mccaughan) writes:
>gilbert.m.stewart (gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com) wrote:
>
>>It can for groups whose mean IQ is 10, such as the folks for whom
>>the warning is put on those little packs of Silica Gel in packing
>>material that say, "Do Not Eat This."
>
>Recently I have seen some ads on TV here extolling the virtues of the latest
>health-food wonder - silica gel. 8-/
>

Dessicated fat is lighter, I guess.

GMS
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa,soc.culture.jewish,alt.atheism,alt.slack
From: tedwards@wam.umd.edu (technopagan priest)
Subject: Re: Re^2: Atheism and Intelligence
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 12:20:19 GMT

In article <4339@novavax.UUCP> mitch@novavax.UUCP (Mitch Silverman) writes:
>Hmmm.  Speaking as a atheistic, Jewish, ordained SubGenius minister
>(I try not to let my hobbies interfere with one another), I feel I
>have to ask: does feeling that a sense of spirituality is useful
>and enjoyable while also being an atheist require that that
>selfsame spirituality be be illusory?

I think it depends on how one defines illusory...you could say
God is illusory, if you believe none exists, but in many
ways you'd be wrong because certainly God(s) _do_ exist in
the minds of Billions, and is a very powerful force.

>I've always wondered if perhaps the common interpretation of a
>NDE is something neurologically or culturally mediated

If we ever have someone die on a PET scanner, I'd like to compare
"seeing the bright, white light" to about the time there begins
to be some cell death in visual cortex...

>prayers influencing any sort of deity.  And I also find the
>Church of the SubGenius very fulfilling and useful (in a First
>Amendment sense, as well as in a more directly spiritual sense.)
>Yet in my life as a whole, I try to do what I feel is right,
>following Rabbi Hillel's dictate that the whole of Torah is to
>"Do not unto others that which you find harmful.  All the rest is
>commentary. 

Would you say Judaism is more "slack" than say, Protestant
Christianity? :)

(Think for yourself, but be home by 10:00...see ya in 1998!)

-Thomas


Xref: sparky rec.org.mensa:8973 soc.culture.jewish:24190 alt.atheism:24495 alt.slack:3588
From: onar@hsr.no (Onar Aam)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa,soc.culture.jewish,alt.atheism,alt.slack
Subject: Re: Re^2: Atheism and Intelligence
Date: 29 Dec 92 18:33:24 GMT
Organization: Rogaland University Centre

>So anyway, answer me this: does human spirituality, in any of its
>forms, necessarily require a belief in [a] god[ess, s, esses]?  Or
>may one be 'spiritual' without any more than a recognition that
>one is human, and thus [perhaps] one enjoys certain rituals for 
>themselves, and for the human contact they involve?

No not at all. Look at chatholic countries (France, Italy). Most people are 
atheists but still strongly adhere to the religious traditions of chatholisism. 



Onar.


 
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: rolls@cis.umassd.edu (Frank Pinto)
Subject: Re: Howard Stern
Organization: University of Massachusetts Dartmouth
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 08:47:09 GMT

If this guy (Stern ?)
and many others in his line of work(tv radio)
wougather their efford toward a instructional
TV and Radio, I'm inclined to believe that the
condition of our schools would not be in such
a disarray.
And before anyone fix in my jugular, mid you
I did not mean they are the sole responsible 
such a conditions.

Frank Pinto
From: clong@remus.rutgers.edu (Chris Long)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Triple Nine Society
Date: 23 Dec 92 13:53:26 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

In article <1h8uu7INNdl8@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, Dan Diaz writes:

> So they have a nice journal, but is there any other reason to join?  Why
> does anyone have a need for high IQ societies other than Mensa?

No more than anyone "needs" to go bowling, I imagine.  As far as I'm
concerned, an interesting journal is reason enough to join.  I've always
had an interest in intelligence and psychometrics, and the Triple Nine
journal _Vidya_ seems to carry quite a few articles along these lines.

> Is there something I am missing?  Is it perhaps that some people need
> an extra ego boost by joining 999 or 9999 or whatever?  I cant imagine
> that the AG's of such societies are very large.  Oy vey.

Any of my friends would tell you I certainly don't need an ego boost!
The Triple Nine society has more members then the National Puzzler's
League, yet the NPL has a nice gathering every year, so it certainly
shouldn't be beyond the TNS to have one.
-- 
Chris Long, 265 Old York Rd., Bridgewater, NJ  08807-2618

"S.B., with an I.Q. of 161, failed to complete his course of study,
running away instead with his professor's wife."
H. J. Eysenck, _Know Your Own I.Q._
From: boncek@Oswego.Oswego.Edu (Lou Boncek)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Howard Stern
Date: 21 Dec 92 23:09:58 GMT
Organization: State University College at Oswego

In article <1992Dec20.194915.17148@ncsu.edu>, cjdcosta@eos.ncsu.edu (CHRISTOPHER J DCOSTA) writes:
> 
> 
> Don't know why I'm doing this.. Maybe in hopes of a change of scenery?
> Anyway, the Howard Stern (sp?) issue appeared to merit a lot of time on
> 'Nightline' and even a mention on David Brinkley. If anyone has sides to
> take or analyses to present, lets hear from you? We really need a new thread.
> 
> Check out the Wall Street Journal, Monday, December 21.
Eastern Edition.  Section B1.  "Howard Stern's Sponsors Don't Touch That Dial".
I think that regardless of what people think of Stern the shock jock, the bottom
line is dollars.  His show brings in 11 million to WXRK, in ad sales and  for Stern
to read a commercial the charge is $3,000.
Infinity Broadcasting can absorb the $600,000 fine.  And the FCC just allowed
Infinity to buy three more stations for $100 million!
So...Is Stern the alternative to Political Correctness, just plain money smart,
or an insult?
	-Lou Boncek
From: vance@cco.caltech.edu (Vance R. Haemmerle)
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Re: Howard Stern
Date: 29 Dec 1992 23:20:23 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: alumni.caltech.edu

In article <01GSW3HOEK82ADDCB5@ccfvx3.draper.com> skh4161@mvs.draper.com (Kjeld Hvatum) writes:
>
>In general, the traditional broadcast spectrum is full.  It may be
>"fuller" in your part of the country than you think.
>For example, the fact that your TV doesn't pick up a strong station on
>every channel is not sufficient to say the spectrum in your area isn't
>full because, by law, you can't have transmitters on adjacent
>TV frequencies in the same area (practical TV filters don't have
>sufficiently sharp frequency drop-offs to reject an adjacent channel).
>In other words, in any city, almost half of the channels will show
>nothing but snow with a modest antenna.  There are exceptions because
>some adjacent channels are not frequency-adjacent.
>

In Los Angeles there is a Channel 4 (NBC) and Channel 5 (Ind.).  The
break between low VHF and high VHF is between 6 and 7.  So they are
in adjacent 6MHz bands and I don't remember any interference problems.
(I don't live there now).  I think this was a problem with earlier
Television tuners, but is no longer true (i.e. look at cable systems).
The vestigial side-band transmission standard, with the space for
the FM audio signal works out nicely in minimizing interference.

Vance Haemmerle
vance@alumni.caltech.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: skh4161@mvs.draper.com (Kjeld Hvatum)
Subject: Re: IQ Test?
Organization: Draper Laboratory
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 11:54:00 GMT


>From: bhmd1464@altair.selu.edu
>Message-ID: <1992Dec30.133342.1273@altair.selu.edu>
>
>  According to my memory, the formula for computing IQ was something
>like   mental age * 10 / physical age.  How is IQ really computed
>or determined?  Can it be done accurately for someone my age (23)?
>
>Brian Acosta

Mental age * 100 / chronological age is the old forumula.
The modern version, especially for adults, is the deviation
IQ, computed via the normal distribution (bell curve) from
rank in the population.

There are many IQ tests designed for adults.  However, for most people,
a reasonable estimate can be made from SAT or GRE scores.
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
Subject: Re: Atheism and Intelligence
From: Geoff@equinox.gen.nz (Geoff Mccaughan)
Date: 31 Dec 92 18:34:12 +1200
Organization: Equinox Networks
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]

Steve J. Quest (quest@iowegia.uucp) wrote:
>Geoff@equinox.gen.nz (Geoff Mccaughan) writes:

>> There do exist places in the world where you might not be in such a
>> minority. For example the incidence of organised religion is much lower
in
>> Europe and Australasia than in America, and is very much in retreat in
these
>> places.

>        I have thought about emigrating to Australia, as they are 
>in the beginnings of an industrial / technical revolution there.  

I wasn't referring to Australia explicitly [Australasia includes New
Zealand]. At the risk of flamage from across the Tasman, I'll just state
that things are looking rather better economically for New Zealand than
Australia at the moment.

>Of course, I will be treated just like emigrants are treated here- 
>and would not like that.

Ummm, excuse my ignorance, but what does 'just like emigrants are treated
here' mean?

>  This is why I stayed, but I will find 
>happiness and I will be with people.  I have joined a group called 
>the Jaycee's (Junior Chamber of Commerce) which is filled with all 
>types of people- the first line of their creed states 
>(paraphrased) that Belief in god gives purpose and meaning to 
>life.  So far I have been able to live with this............sq

Lucky you, I couldn't swallow that one...

--
Geoff, Sysop Equinox (equinox.gen.nz) +64 (3) 3854406 [4 Lines]
                               Voice: +64 (3) 3852101
"How shall we deal with strangers, except as brothers?" - U.K. LeGuin
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: skh4161@mvs.draper.com (Kjeld Hvatum)
Subject: PSAT/NMSQT
Organization: Draper Laboratory
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 10:53:00 GMT


Does anyone know any of the Selection Index cutoffs used (I believe it
depends on the state) for National Merit Scholarship Semifinalists and
Commended NMSQT status?

The National Merit Scholarship Qualifying Test is now the PSAT, a short
version of the SAT.  The Selection Index is computed with 2V+M.  The
test consists of one section of verbal items, and one section of math
items.  They are taken from the scored or experimental sections of older
SAT tests (since the PSAT has no experimental section for developing new
questions).  The PSAT has easier items than the SAT, but the scaled
scores (reported on a scale of 20-80) compensate to maintain the
difficulty equivalence with the SAT (SAT score = x10 PSAT score).  In
other words, you have to get a higher percentage of questions right to
score 75 on the PSAT than you do a 750 on the corresponding SAT section.

So, in a mere 100 minutes, students are selected for the revered
National Merit Scholarship Semifinalist status, using a straight cutoff
score, on an abbreviated test of real SAT items.  In fact, 2/3 of your
score is determined in 50 minutes, from your answers to 65 verbal items,
mostly consisting of antonyms, word analogies, and sentence completions.
And most students don't get a second try, at least in a given year.  I
think the test is only given twice a year.  Does this seem fair, in
light of the ETS's own recommendation, at least in their SAT and GRE
"ethics" statements, against using simple cutoff scores for making
decisions about students?

Incidentally, Semifinalist status usually ends up being at
about the 99.5th percentile of the general high school population.
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa
From: gmark@cbnewse.cb.att.com (gilbert.m.stewart)
Subject: Re: Membership Decision
Organization: AT&T
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 23:59:09 GMT

In article <BzoI38.2zs@news.cso.uiuc.edu> wiggins@osiris.cso.uiuc.edu (Don Wiggins) writes:

>In one of the first newsletters that I received as a new member I
>learned that there was a tremendous amount of unrest in the local
[....]

>During the past year or so, however, I just haven't found much in the
>magazine that appeals to me.  Several weeks ago I posted a note in this
>group expressing my irritation with the anti-Bush/anti-Perot cartoons
>that appeared in one issue, and wondered whether the editors would
>balance that out with an anti-Clinton cartoon sometime before the
>election.  Someone posted a response that they (MENSA) can only publish
>what they receive, which was a pretty weak argument.  The organization

Actually, that is a very good argument.  And I find that much of what
is printed in the Bulletin (I assume that's what you're talking about
here, rather than the newsletters you referred to earlier) is generated
by Mensans who are deluding themselves when they think they can write.
But I must say that much more in the Bulletin is good than has been
in the past.  And that, I believe, is due in major part to the editor,
Kent Van Cleeve, who is not only a driven editor, but a good writer,
and those responsible for the decision not to renew his stint as
editor will realize their mistake, IMHO, much too late.

As for those political cartoons, let's just say that I found them,
um, less than side-splitting.

GMS
Newsgroups: rec.org.mensa