HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: messiah@nevada.edu (mw)
Subject: loose, aggressive games @ Hold'em
Originator: messiah@redrock.nevada.edu
Organization: University of Nevada System Computing Services
Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1992 09:52:08 GMT

I think it can generally be assumed that for the typically tight but
aggressive Hold 'em player the loose and passive game is the easiest to
beat. Possibly the single most distinguishing feature between a passive
and aggressive game is the amount of pre-flop raising going on.

OK, so having established that, I am curious whether other people consider
the loose/agressive Hold 'em game a good one (as in highly beatable) when 
the betting structure is of the "limit" variety? I have mixed feelings about
loose/aggressive (limit) Hold 'em because with all that action in the pot
before the flop anybody that has any kind of outs is getting good enough 
odds on their money to keep calling. This tends to put a damper on one's
ability to "outplay" one's opponents, since it is either a question of 
outdrawing or folding. It can be a real turkey shoot sometimes.

Different authors recommend different things under these conditions. Some
advocate tightening up while others advocate loosening up. What's the deal?
Or does one toss a coin and switch gears at random? Also, if given a choice
with a limited bankroll and the same amount of time for playing in either
a loose/aggressive or a loose/passive game, which game should one prefer?

 
         _/     _/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ 
       _/_/ _/_/ _/    _/ _/    _/ _/       _/    _/
     _/  _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/   _/       _/    _/   
   _/     _/ _/    _/ _/    _/ _/       _/    _/        |\     /|
 _/     _/ _/    _/ _/    _/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/          | ``''' |
                                                        \(O) (O)/
           messiah@redrock.nevada.edu                 __  \   /  __
 ----------------------------------------------------oooO--(_)--Oooo--
 



Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: jacobs@cs.utah.edu (Steven R Jacobs)
Subject: Re: hold'em trivia
In-reply-to: jacob@ocf.berkeley.edu's message of 25 Dec 1992 02:02:26 GMT
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept
	<1hdq3iINN1ni@agate.berkeley.edu>
Date: 24 Dec 92 19:18:24

In article <1hdq3iINN1ni@agate.berkeley.edu> jacob@ocf.berkeley.edu (Jacob Jin) writes:
>
> In Doyle Brunson's book, he points out that if you make a straight
> with JT, you WILL have the nut straight. There is no such thing
> as making the ugly end of the straight with JT. 

Absurd.  You hold JT.  Board comes QJT, followed by 98.  You don't have
the nut straight.  My AK gives me the nut straight, and I had it on the
flop.
--
Steve Jacobs  ({bellcore,hplabs,uunet}!utah-cs!jacobs, jacobs@cs.utah.edu)
"Don't worry, I just have these harmless pocket rockets...."
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: jpak@oakhill.sps.mot.com (Jim Pak)
Subject: Casino in LA?
Organization: Motorola Inc.  Austin, Tx.
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 19:49:11 GMT

Excuse me if this was asked before, but the last two times I was in LA, I saw
some TV ads for a casino that's supposedly in LA.  I think the name was
Normandie Casino, but I may have recalled wrong.  Does anybody know what the
deal is?  Is it a full-fledged casino, or just a card room?  Where exactly is
it?  When did it open?  How can LA have a casino in it?

Thanks for any info,

Jim
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: aheckman@oracle.com (Alan Heckman)
Subject: Blackjack and Tipping
Organization: Oracle Corp
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 02:04:31 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

What is the proper method of tipping at blackjack?
I am intereseted in things like frequency/amount.
Also for tipping the dealer by betting for him and you
win the hand. (For example, you bet $5 for yourself and
$1 for the dealer.)  If you win normal, do you give the
delear the $1 won, or $2.  If you win the hand with a
blackjack or after splitting or doubling down what do
you do?

I'd also be interested in the methods of tipping other
dealers (like for craps, pai-gow poker, roulette, etc.)

Sorry if you think this is a weird question.

-- 

Alan J. Heckman          Oracle Corporation             
My opinions...
From: sethb@panix.com (Seth Breidbart)
Subject: Re: Turning $96 into $70,000
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 03:39:58 GMT
Organization: PANIX Public Access Unix & Internet, NYC

In article <1015@rc1.vub.ac.be> rdictus@vnet3.vub.ac.be
(Roy Dictus) writes:
>This is not a gamble, really.  If you would be interested in turning
>$96 of your money into $68,000 (and not just once but as many times
>as you'd like), drop me a line for details.

This is a gamble, really.  Will they throw you in jail or just
confiscate all your money?  It sounds like a chain letter to me; if
you're not using the mails, then just an ordinary pyramid scheme.

Seth		sethb@panix.com
(Yes, this is me; I've moved my net.doings to this account.)
From: mchi@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Michael M Chi)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Re: Recent AC trip
Date: 22 Dec 92 22:18:33 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania


Yeah, about the dealer messing up a few times within a matter of 2-3 
mintues.......  It happened to a friend of mine, too.  He was playing
blackjack, and the dealer took his cards and chips although he had
won with a 20.  Then, maybe 5 hands later, she gave him chips although
he had lost with a 22.  Think that maybe she realized her mistake and
tried to make it up to him??????

Mike
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: mzimmers@netcom.com (Michael Zimmers)
Subject: Recommendations on Omaha books, programs?
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 03:20:14 GMT


Me again -

I've become way intrigued with hi-lo Omaha, 8 or better.  (It's my
decided opinion that this will eventually overtake hold 'em in
popularity and may someday be the format for the World Series.)

Can anyone recommend books and/or software programs?  Thanks.
-- 
Michael Zimmers                                    |  Home:  408 996 1984
SoftHelp                                           |  Work:  408 996 1965
Software Solutions for Open Systems                |  Data:  408 996 1974
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: mzimmers@netcom.com (Michael Zimmers)
Subject: California Aces?
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Distribution: ba
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 03:17:58 GMT


Hey gang -

I know this has been asked before; apologies for my inattentiveness.
I popped into Garden City today to try some Omaha.  Yeah, right -- 
the place gave new meaning to the word "packed".  I watched a little
of the California Aces and was mildly intrigued (though it's beyond
me how CA can keep up this charade of not permitting gambling).

Has anyone done an analysis?  How bad a game is it:  mildly negative, or
akin to burning 1$ bills by the fistful?

Thanks in advance...
-- 
Michael Zimmers                                    |  Home:  408 996 1984
SoftHelp                                           |  Work:  408 996 1965
Software Solutions for Open Systems                |  Data:  408 996 1974
From: jacob@ocf.berkeley.edu (Jacob Jin)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Re: hold'em trivia
Date: 25 Dec 1992 09:33:49 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility
NNTP-Posting-Host: tornado.berkeley.edu

In article <JACOBS.92Dec24191824@cells.cs.utah.edu> jacobs@cs.utah.edu (Steven R Jacobs) writes:
>In article <1hdq3iINN1ni@agate.berkeley.edu> jacob@ocf.berkeley.edu (Jacob Jin) writes:
>>
>> In Doyle Brunson's book, he points out that if you make a straight
>> with JT, you WILL have the nut straight. There is no such thing
>> as making the ugly end of the straight with JT. 
>
>Absurd.  You hold JT.  Board comes QJT, followed by 98.  You don't have
>the nut straight.  My AK gives me the nut straight, and I had it on the
>flop.
>--
>Steve Jacobs  ({bellcore,hplabs,uunet}!utah-cs!jacobs, jacobs@cs.utah.edu)
>"Don't worry, I just have these harmless pocket rockets...."


Well, quibble all you want over wording. If you noticed I said if
you make a straight WITH JT. In your example, you aren't making
a straight with your hole cards. But I get your point(eg, the
board being, maybe789T or whatever, JT ain't da nutters.)

JT is better than AK for straight possibilities. But of course
AK is the better hand overall. 

The other day I was playing 6-12 and after winning close to a
rack I decided to break, since two fish(insert condescending
chortle) had tapped out and left. I then began my journey
to fulfill a lifelong dream: I sat down at the 4-limit lo-ball
jackpot table. And I LIKED it, dammit, even tho I was mocked
by all card room employees. And I thought hold em punished
those who start with poor cards. The whole time I felt like
I was snatching purses and stealing food stamps...most of
the table playing under multiple raises and drawing two
cards or more. (Well, multiple raises when I was involved
in the pot(insert pompous guffaw)) My bankroll was also
helped by these two twentysomething wanna be poker players
(like myself, I guess) (who said: just when I thought I had
to go to the bathroom, as I sat down) raising every pot
I was in and rapping pat with J-high. And trying this
little ploy several times. Anyway, talk about a money tree.
If only I can get past the moral dilemma, a problem not
present when playing 6-12, as the people at those tables 
can generally afford a good beating.
From:  (Brad Snyder)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Re: Blackjack
Date: 24 Dec 92 01:07:56 GMT
Followup-To: rec.gambling
Organization: Loral - WDL

>  As the player, however, you can take a hit on or stick on
> whatever you want, for example you can hit on an ace and a 6 whereas 
> the dealer (who must stand on all 17s) would have to sick in that situation.  
> are the people the casino makes money from.  For example if the player has
> a 16 and the dealer has a 7, 8, 9, 10, or an Ace, the player should hit.  
> More than half the players stick in this situation.
> 
> ajackson@ernie.princeton.edu

Most house rules force the dealer to hit on a soft 17.  A soft 17 is where
the dealer's hand adds to 17 using an ace as 11.

Hitting on a 16 is not always a good move with a 7 8 9 or 10 showing. 
Mostly you will bust and then you have no chance of winning.  Asumming that
the dealer is always hiding a face card is stupid.  I would wager that this
person does not consistently win at blackjack.  


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brad Snyder
bsnyder@wdl1.wdl.loral.com
408-473-4939
From: patti@hosehead.intel.com (Patti Beadles)
Subject: Re: Interesting (?) System to take advantage of winning streaks
Originator: patti@hosehead
Organization: Intel Corporation, Hillsboro, OR
Distribution: world,local
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 06:15:48 GMT

In article <21DEC199214054605@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> venkataraman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Remesh Venkataraman) writes:
>You start out with one unit. If you win the first hand then you play the next
>hand with one unit. Now if you win this hand then you go ahead and increase
>your bet by one unit.  If you win this hand too, then you increase your bet
>by another unit and so on.

I've heard this described as an anti-Martingale or a reverse
Martingale system.  I ran some numbers just for fun.  These numbers
were generated using a coin-toss (50% chance of winning) which is a
sort of a rough approximation for blackjack.  

I started each round with a bankroll of 100 units, and a bet of one
unit.  I increased the bet by one after every win except the first one
in a streak.  On two of the runs I used a very large number of hands
(100,000) and on the others, I used a more likely number (200.)  I
tried each way with an unlimited bankroll, and with a "bust" when the
bankroll hit 0.

The last trial is 200 hands, limited bankroll, flat betting.  It's
included for comparison.

   - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Trial 1:  500 trials of 100,000 flips, unlimited bankroll (starting at
100, but allowed to go negative.)

Mean is 240
Median is 168
High is 796
Low is -382

Trial 2:  500 trials of 100,000 flips, bankroll of 100 units (ends if
bankroll hits 0)

Mean is 68
Median is 0
High is 771
Low is 0
(431 out of 500 trials wound up with zero bankroll.)

[ If you've got an unlimited bankroll and a LOT of time, it looks like
you're in good shape betting this way.]

Trial 3:  500 trials of 200 flips, bankroll of 100 units (unlimited
bankroll.)

Mean is 98
Median is 95
High is 243
Low is 50


Trial 4:  500 trials of 200 flips, bankroll of 100 units (ends if
bankroll hits 0.)

Mean is 101
Median is 99
High is 205
Low is 45
(0 out of 500 trials wound up with zero bankroll.)


Trial 5:  500 trials of 200 flips, bankroll of 100 units (ends if
bankroll hits 0.)  Flat betting of one unit.

Mean is 101
Median is 102
High is 140
Low is 60
(0 out of 500 trials wound up with zero bankroll.)

[ In a more reasonable length trial, you don't gain anything in the
average case, but it looks like you've got more potential for a big
win. ]
-- 
Patti Beadles  503/696-4358 | I don't speak for Intel, nor vice-versa.
   patti@hosehead.intel.com |
   75555.767@compuserve.com | If it wasn't for the last minute,
or just yell, "Hey, Patti!" |             I'd never get anything done!
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: jmh@athena.mit.edu (J Michael Hammond)
Subject: Re: Blackjack and Tipping
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 13:12:32 GMT

>I'd also be interested in the methods of tipping other
>dealers (like for craps, pai-gow poker, roulette, etc.)

I can speak for craps.  The most common way to tip the dealers is to
fling some white checks at the stickman and say "give the dealers the
hardways."  The stickman will thank you, shout "Dealers on the
hardways" or something to that effect, and place the bets for the
dealers in the center of the hardway boxes.  Unlike most player
hardways, if one of them hits, the dealers will take the original bet
down with the winnings.  Or, if you like to play the hardways
yourself, you might flip $24 at him and say "all the hardways, five
and one."  The "...and one" means "put the dealers on all of them for
$1 each."

The dealers know as well as you do that the hardways are a suboptimal
bet.  I've read (and demonstrated) that, even though the dealers
appreciate the hardway tip, they really get a kick out of it if you
tip them by putting a bet on the pass line for them and backing it up
with some odds.  The stick and your caller will thank you, one or both
will shout "Dealers on the pass line!" and if they're cool they'll
root with you.

Finally, you can just tip them directly by flipping some chips to the
caller or the stick.  You might want to make sure to say something
like "these are for you guys" so they don't think you're putting a bet
out for them.

Most of the players I've seen who tip craps dealers will bet the
hardways for them a couple times during a hot shoot (as tipping the
dealers is a good superstitious way to prolong the hot shoot) and, if
they've made a few thousand dollars on the hot shoot, will tip the
dealers a few reds or a green afterwards.

------

The Foxwoods casino in Ledyard (thanks, all of you who gave me
directions when I asked a while ago) has a 10x odds craps pit through
the month of December.  If you hurry you can take advantage of it.
Note that their minimum-limit 10x odds table is usually $10, but
during slow times they'll have a $5 table in that pit.

------------------------------------------------------------------
J. Michael Hammond           The MathWorks, Inc.  | Testers do it  
Manager of Software Quality  (voice) 508 653-1415 | over and over! 
jmike@mathworks.com          (FAX) 508 653-2997   |                
------------------------------------------------------------------
From: mchi@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Michael M Chi)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: video poker
Date: 22 Dec 92 18:36:56 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

Hi.  I was wondering if anyone had a copy of one of those casino simulations.
I forget what the exact name is, but it's got everything that a casino has,
such as Red Dog, Roulette, Craps, etc.  I've been going to Atlantic City a
lot and wanted to try each one on the computer first before blowing all my
money there.

If anyone has a copy, I appreciate it if you could email me, and I'll gladly
pay for a disk and the postage.  Thanks a lot.

Michael Chi
mchi@eniac.seas.upenn.edu
From: tahajian@aries.East.Sun.COM (David Tahajian - Sun BOS Software)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Re: WRGPT II Rules change, anyone?
Date: 21 Dec 1992 17:03:17 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Billerica MA
Reply-To: tahajian@east.sun.com (David Tahajian - Sun BOS Software)
NNTP-Posting-Host: aries.east.sun.com

In article <18193@autodesk.COM> jamesr@Autodesk.COM (James Rowell) writes:
>
>Conversely I'd like to see a way to force players to speed up who
>continually take a long time to bet BUT don't time-out.  For example,
>there are several players at my table who have repeatedly caused lengthy
>delay only to fold, and I'm sure in most of these cases an advance bet
>could have been made.  Getting several such players in one pot means it
>takes forever to complete.  Hence the slow tables.
>
>How about subtacting some factor of time from your time-out period for
>each delay you cause based upon the length of the delay.  It doesn't
>have to be extreme, but enough so that many repeated lengthy delays will
>really add up.  In conjunction with some variation of John Hallyburton's
>proposal to allow players to recover any lost time, we may end up with a
>fair system for all.
>

Come on now... are you really saying that you've never made an advance
bet only to have it bounce back to you when someone raises?
For example, the bet starts at $500, and you send a "make $500" advance
bet and go home for the day, thinking that you were a good guy by speeding
up the game with your advance bet. Someone else raises, and you come in the 
next day, only to find your advance bet was "insufficient". You then decide 
to fold. The other players may see you doing a "big delay and fold", but 
they have no idea that you even made an advance bet to begin with. 
See my point?

In other words, nobody really knows if other players make or do not make
advance bets.  This situation happens a lot to me, and I don't think 
it's fair to reduce my timeout period as long as I do act within
the given time limit.

==========================================================================
Dave Tahajian                      | "YOU CALLED ME?!?" - What the AQ high
david.tahajian@east.sun.com        | player said to the winning AK player
Sun Microsystems, Billerica, Ma.   | at my 7-stud table in Foxwoods, CT.
==========================================================================
From: hashimoto@sgi.com (Roy Hashimoto)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: hold'em trivia
Date: 23 Dec 1992 18:57:41 GMT
Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: sideout.asd.sgi.com

If you want to make a straight in hold'em, what are the best two cards
to start with?  I was analyzing starting hands and this question came
up because the numbers I was getting ran counter to my intuition.  In
fact, I was pretty sure I had found a bug.

I thought that the best hand would be something like 87, giving you
plenty of room in both directions to fill the straight.  But 65 and T9
are marginally better, and surprisingly, 54 and JT are better still.
This last result is what astonished me.  I had to work the combinatorics
by hand before I believed it.

We're only talking about a tenth of a percent difference from 87 to JT,
and it turns out that the difference comes in straights you can make on
the board.  So this is completely insignificant for playing.  It is
interesting, though, that closing the straight at one end helps instead
of hurts.

This trend doesn't continue, though.  QJ is over two percent worse than
JT, making only about three quarters as many straights.  In fact, it's
easier to make a straight with QT (this is obvious after a little thought).

Roy Hashimoto
hashimoto@sgi.com
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
From: mbn@greyskul.hf.intel.com (Mike Northam)
Subject: Re: Handicapping the NBA?
Reply-To: mbn@greyskul.hf.intel.com (Mike Northam)
Organization: Shorter Software Solutions
	<1992Dec18.150853.2489@cbnewsd.cb.att.com>
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 21:15:01 GMT

>>>>> "ray" == ray.c.jender  <rcj2@cbnewsd.cb.att.com> writes:

ray> In article <1992Dec17.235303.14260@news.Hawaii.Edu> ibsnat@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu (Gordon Tsuji) writes:

[requests for nba handicapping hints]

ray> 	Well, I don't follow the NBA from a gamblers stand point,
ray> 	but how about this:

ray> 		Take Denver when a visiting team has been on the
ray> 		road for 3 or 4 games. Theory here is that the
ray> 		visiting team will be tired and being in Denver
ray> 		will only make it worst!

ray> 		Also, in general I would think that the home team
ray> 		advantage for any team is bigger in the NBA then 
ray> 		other sporting events.

I think the standard is -4 for the home team (that is, the home team would
be favored by 4 points in an otherwise even game).  Might be more for some
traditionally strong home teams (Chicago, Utah, etc.)

From my own experience, I like to watch for inflated lines for "favorite"
teams, such as the Lakers and Bulls (Lakers especially in Vegas).  Golden
State and Utah are often pumped up in Reno/Tahoe due to local favoritism.
I like to bet the road dog in such instances.

Another case for the road dog is a team like Portland or Phoenix that
traditionally plays close on the road.  Conversely, some teams can't win
(or cover) on the road, such as Utah (except this year!), Washington,
Milwaukee, etc.  "Getaway day" (the last game in a long road trip) is a
good time to avoid the road team--sometimes they've already packed their
(mental) bags by halftime.

Of course, you already know about the tough matchups:  Detroit vs Chicago;
Sacramento vs Portland; Phoenix vs. Utah, etc.  (these games are quite
often closer than the line would indicate).

Always look at the last 10 games to see who's hot (and factor in road vs.
home over the last few games).  For example, there's no way I'd bet
against Phoenix right now (they've won 9 in a row)--if the line is too
large, I'd just lay off the game, but I wouldn't bet against 'em until the
streak ends.

Of course, if I lived in Nevada, I'd probably be significantly broke
following my own advice :-)
--
Mike Northam, Shorter Software Solutions, on contract to Intel Corp.
(h) (503) 324-1831 (intel office) (503) 696-4860 (shorter) (503) 357-1010
mbn@greyskul.hf.intel.com
"You ducks are really trying my patience...but you're SOOO cute. --Apu 9F01
From: bhoughto@sedona.intel.com (Blair P. Houghton)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Re: Ceasers in Palm Springs?
Date: 30 Dec 1992 22:51:05 GMT
Organization: Intel Corp., Chandler, Arizona
NNTP-Posting-Host: stealth.intel.com

In article <eric.156.0@hup.ucla.edu> eric@hup.ucla.edu (Eric J. Splaver) writes:
>I hope it happens soon, if succersful it could scare some casinoes in Las 
>Vegas.  PS is only about 150 miles from LA, while Vegas is twice that.  

Naaah.

All the hip, young (underaged) Angelenos already take the
short-cut to Laughlin.  It's got a beach, and a place to
launch the jet-ski.

Then again, many actual residents of Palm Springs are worth
a couple of grand per year to LV.

				--Blair
				  "Comeonnnnnn, 'lebben!
				   Daddy needs a quickie
				   with a teenybopper!"