HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: walker-john@yale.edu (John Walker)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: Military Quote
Followup-To: soc.feminism
Date: 4 Oct 1992 15:25:20 GMT
Organization: Yale University
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

>    All in all I agree with what you said, however I still dont like the
> idea of my sister or girlfriend being drafted.  Basically, as much as I 
> care for my own skin (enough to make plans to flee the country during-
> the gulf war) if push came to shove I would rather face the horrors of war
> then subject them to it. 

A minor correction: the United States no longer has a draft, and has made
no plans to reinstate one since the Vietnam war.
 
>    Why are so many feminists eager to eligible for combat?  I would love
> to have the protection from it that women now enjoy.  The argument that
> women dont deserve equal rights because they dont fight in wars is fallacious.
> What men who are 4f, come from rich families, or whose number simply never
> comes up?

Steve, here you miss a major point.  I don't think too many people are keen
for the right to enter combat.  But women are excluded from many of the
higher ranks (and higher paying jobs) in the military because they are
forbidden to serve in "combat" positions.  Some people feel that this is
essentially on purpose:  the military is keeping women out of "combat"
positions because it does not want them in positions of authority.  I am
inclined to simply see the latter as a result of the former.  And, with
time, I think the military will come around.

>From the standpoint of the military, excluding women in any way from
serving is not a good idea.  It reduces the available talent pool, and
makes recruitment more difficult.  But in many ways the military (and
government in general) simply follows society.  Is our society ready for
women to serve in the military?  Is our society to see female soldiers (or
sailors, or pilots) on propaganda videotapes, being shot, raped, or
tortured?  Are we ready to see dead women on the cover of the New York
Times?  Evidently not.

Walker

----------------------
|     John Walker    |
|walker-john@yale.edu|
|   (203) 436-0915   |
----------------------


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From: orourke@sophia.smith.EDU (Joseph O'Rourke)
Subject: Nussbaum, Okin, and Rawls
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Organization: Smith College, Northampton, MA, US
Keywords: principles of justice
Date: 27 Sep 92 20:31:44 GMT

	Imagine that "you" were given the choice prior to your
	birth whether to be born female or male.  Which would
	you choose?

It is perhaps too difficult to separate yourself from your gender
to answer this question, but just relfecting on it highlights
current justice imbalances.
	These ruminations were suggested by a fascinating article
in the Oct.8th NY Review of Books by Martha Nussbaum, on Moller
Okin's suggested revision of John Rawl's "Original Position"
argument for selecting principles of justice.  Okin modifies
Rawls idea so that those determining the principles of justice
are
	(a) deprived of "knowledge of whether they will be males or
	females in the resulting society," and
	(b) charged with determining the basic principles of justice
	that affect family life (as well as the remainder of society).

It is unlikely that the resulting principles would be those under
which we labor today.


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Newsgroups: soc.feminism,news.answers
From: falcao@felix.metaphor.COM (Ronnie Falcao)
Subject: Re: women's club/hotel
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Date: 30 Sep 92 17:11:50 GMT

> I have been considering for some time setting up a working woman's
> club.  I'm talking about an old fashioned style club with private
> membership and private clubrooms - where a woman can go to have
> drinks or coffee or just some quiet space without having to go to a
> coffee shop or a bar.
>
> Ideally apart from light meals, coffee and drinks the club will
> provide a libray/reading area, business rooms where some PCs, faxes,
> printers etc are available, perhaps a function room available for
> meetings, saunas etc.

The atmosphere you describe sounds very appealing and useful
to those traveling on business, but I find the idea of arbitrarily
excluding all members of a particular class fairly unsettling
and not particularly useful.


> Another possibility is to have a private woman's hotel attached-
> there are plenty of women who need to travel on business, may not
> necessarily know anyone in town and wish to stay somewhere they can
> feel safe and not stand out as obviously a woman travelling alone.

Any woman leaving such an establishment would stand out very
obviously as a woman traveling alone.  I'm reminded of the
movie "Thoroughly Modern Millie", wherein the proprietor
of a woman's hotel participates in schemes to abduct the
young women who stay there.  (Scenes of a young Julie Andrews
and Mary Tyler Moore?? tap dancing are well worth sitting
through the stupid parts.)


> I am interested to hear if anybody out there is a member of any
> women's club, or has perhaps started one up. I don't have access to
> mega-bucks so the idea of starting it off as a co-operative is a
> possibility but I'm not quite sure where to start.

With your interests and ideas, maybe you'd do well as a
consultant to hotels which want to increase their appeal
to business travelers in general and women in particular.


> I'm interested in any information, books or ideas anybody has - or
> names of people who may have info.

You might check the tried-and-true Guide to Periodical Literature.
I remember reading a newspaper or magazine article recently that
focused on meeting the special needs or women business travelers.

	- Ronnie

falcao@metaphor.com


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From: s1006420@titan.ucc.umass.edu (If you want peace work for justice)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Book on prostitution
Date: 7 Oct 1992 01:49:04 GMT
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

> In article <1asl0hINNfiu@agate.berkeley.edu> csulaima@titan.ucc.umass.edu (CYNTHIA R SULAIMAN) writes:
> >I was wondering if anyone could recommend good books, articles,
> >and papers on the subject of international prositution.  Underground
> >or small press publications are very much welcomed.
> >
> >Thank you,
> >
> >Cynthia Sulaiman
> >

Look up Banana, Beaches and Bases by Cynthia Enloe - it is a radical
analysis of international politics revealing the crucial role
of women in implementing government foreign policies.
It deals with several problems - one of which is prostitution 
especially in Asia and also with regard to U.S. military bases.

Chapters are:

- Gender makes the world go around
- On the Beach: sexism and tourism
- Nationalism and masculinity
- Base women
- Diplomatic wives
- Carmen Miranda on my mind: int'l politics of the banana
- Blue jeans and bankers
- 'just like one of the family' - domestic servants in world politics
- Conclusion: The personal is international

 Vera B.






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From: mickey@ucjeps.berkeley.EDU (Mickey Ellinger)
Subject: Teen Talk Barbie says "Math class is hard"
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Date: 30 Sep 92 17:23:54 GMT

[This is making the rounds on various mailing lists, etc.  Mickey
Ellinger submitted the first part, I added the second part from a
mailing list that followed up with it.  Neither of us originally wrote
the following material.   --CTM]

[Stripped for anonymity:]
>     According to the Wall Street Journal this morning, Mattel is
>     selling a product called "Teen Talk Barbie" which says 4
>     phrases.  One of the phrases is "Math class is hard".  I can't
>     imagine a product better designed to program math avoidance into
>     little girls.  We've all heard many times how math avoidance
>     limits women's educational opportunities and career choices.
>     Mattel justifies this product by saying something like they
>     aren't saying the other classes are easy, and that they have a
>     doll availble that says "I want to be a doctor".  I'm sure we
>     all wish Barbie good luck on achieving her goal of becoming a
>     doctor without any math skills.  If you have views on this
>     subject that you would like to share with the Mattel company,
>     you can call 1-800-421-2887 or write to Mattel at 330
>     Continental Blvd., El Segundo, Ca. 90245.
>
>     As Barbie no doubt says -- have a nice day.

[And (also stripped for anonymity):]

>I have an address that you might find useful (in addition to the 800
>number that is being passed about).  Interestingly enough, the person
>is a woman:

>> Subject: RE: Mattel and math avoidance in girls.

>> You can send mail to

>> Ms. Jill Barad
>> President, Mattel Corporation
>> Ms. Catherine Blaine
>> Assistant to the President
>> 300 Continental Blvd.
>> El Segundo, Ca. 90245

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From: boyc5031@mach1.wlu.ca (jim boyce)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: the Beauty Myth
Date: 4 Oct 1992 15:27:04 GMT
Organization: Wilfrid Laurier University
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
Summary: opinions and sources wanted
Keywords: beauty myth
Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

i am a master's student in religion and culture at wilfrid laurier
university in waterloo, ontario and am doing an analysis of The
Beauty Myth by Naomi Wolf. I will be examining both the empirical
data she uses in the book as well as her subjective statements. I
have already acquired many book reviews from journals and magazines
and most of them are one to two pages in length. I am wondering if
anyone knows of a review that goes into greater detail. I would also
Appreciate any personal comments about the book.

sincerely,

jim boyce


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From: kaarts@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Kenneth John Aarts)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: (none)
Date: 28 Sep 1992 15:21:47 GMT
Organization: University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Distribution: world
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Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

In <19tsr2INNsnc@agate.berkeley.edu> cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese) writes:

A very well articulated arguement, except for;

>Only SOME WOMEN, again.  Maybe I was wrong -- it IS an issue of control.
>Right now, and I'm not trying to slam anyone, men control the image of
>women being displayed -- and it sure ain't a realistic image.  If WOMEN
>could control the display of our breasts, the iamge would of course
>change.  We'd finally find out just what breasts look like. 

This seems to completely exclude the possibility that women can influence our
culture.
	An issue worth consideration is how the status quo aids some women.
The power the 'beautiful' women gain by virtue of being beautiful.  The
increase in that power if the elite group is kept as small as possible.  The
advantages that can go to women not in that group, but can emulate parts of
it.
	I think there is a large group of women who have just as much a
vested interest in keeping things the way they are, as does any Old Boys
Network.
	I don't belive all the blame can be laid at the feet of men.

Ken


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From: csulaima@titan.ucc.umass.edu (CYNTHIA R SULAIMAN)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: International prositution
Date: 6 Oct 1992 18:13:37 GMT
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

I was wondering if anyone could recommend good books, articles,
and papers on the subject of international prositution.  Underground
or small press publications are very much welcomed.

Thank you,

Cynthia Sulaiman






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From: et@madmax.aa.nps.navy.MIL (Ismail)
Subject: Re: Male violence and the 'Power Myth'
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Date: 5 Oct 92 22:28:04 GMT

gcf@panix.COM (Gordon Fitch) writes:

> Property, which is what these systems are about, is that
> part of your environment which you are allowed to defend
> violently, or invoke state power to defend.  It is easy to
> say that we should get rid of property, as the old-time
> communists did, yet it turns out when there is little right
> to personal property a profound public lassitude ensues and
> the economy, the whole society, seem to decline.  I refer
> you to the Soviet Union.  Clearly, property is inspiring,
> because, I believe, it encapsulates violence.

It does not at the least follow from the experience of
Soviet Union that power and property rights are essential
ingredients of a "civilized" society.  It is just another
good example of the "fact" that authoritarian, hierarchical
social organizations are doomed to failure. It also shows
that how strong and deep  power and property myths are
rooted in our cultures. I strongly believe in the
following quotation:

  "It is impossible to use authoritarian means to
   realize libertarian ends. The means have to be the
   same as the ends, or the ends themselves become
   distorted. The process and the goal must be one.

   Although there is a possibility, there is no
   certainty that a free society will ever be
   achieved. If it is to be realized, then it will
   only be through our conscious choice and through
   persuasion and example."

> In any case, feminists have not, except for a minority,
> been particularly anti-capitalistic or otherwise inclined to
> overturn the established order, as long as they could make
> modest improvements.  Yet clearly even beginning to deal
> with violence requires a fundamental, radical change of
> worldview.

I agree. Such "improvements" sought on lastnames, mudflaps,
"what to wear"s  and lipsticks are just tap dances on the
stage which won't even rock the boat, never mind setting
the route.

Ismail.




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From: rgvdh@vtrl.src.mei.co.jp ("R. van der Heide")
Subject: mudflaps and nudity
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Date: 27 Sep 92 20:30:39 GMT

I figured I'd let other people reply to this, but nobody raised quite
the same issue I would have, so I'm going to bother replying after
all.

dan@cubmol.bio.columbia.edu (Daniel Zabetakis) writes:
(Unfortunately I don't have the full original quote handy.  I believe
you used the word "contradiction" at some point, but I'm not sure and
your post has disappeared from this system.)

>Some women say (as this person) that pictures (or silhouttes, even)
>of naked women are demeaning and offensive, while other women say
>that they have a right to go topless in public. Both under the banner
>of feminism.
and later:
>Basically, I said that there was a conflict between opposition to the
>mudflaps, and support for the right to go topless.

When you first brought this up, I was puzzled.  I never saw any
conflict at all.  I had to stop and think about it a bit, to figure
out where you could be coming from that you would see a conflict.

I guess it depends what you think feminism is about.  Is it about
making up new rules that people have to follow?  Or is it about
changing the world, changing the way people think?  If the latter,
disliking the mudflaps and wanting to be able to go topless in public
go together quite naturally: feminists want a world in which tits
(& the rest of a woman's body) just aren't such a big deal.

So if making rules (harrasment guidelines at work, etc.) is merely one
tool sometimes used by some feminists to try to change the world, then
making a coherent set of rules to allow casual nudity and discourage
"offensive" examples of sex-as-decoration is just a difficult practical
problem.  But it's not a "contradiction" or "paradox" unless you think
feminism's primary activity is or should be making up rules.  I don't.

But this thread did start with someone whose first reaction upon being
disgusted by the mudflaps was to want to ban them.  And I've met
self-identified feminists with the "fundamentalist" personality type
who apparently wanted a set of rules to govern their entire lives.
Such people are a dependable source of outrageous quotes, and thus get
lots of press.  The only time feminism impinges on a lot of people's
consciousness is when they encounter affirmative guidelines or a new
harrassment policy.  So I wonder: Is the notion of feminism as a
movement that exists for the purpose of making up new rules widespread?

If so, it would certainly tend to make the movement unpopular, and
might explain some of the people who say "I believe in [lots of
feminist positions] but I'm not a feminist."

-RGvdH

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From: manda@ariel.ucs.unimelb.EDU.AU (Manda Lynch)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Re: women's club/hotel
Date: 7 Oct 1992 00:11:33 GMT
Organization: University of Alaska, Fairbanks
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
Originator: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Sep30.235359.13833@newsroom.utas.edu.au> Jane.Hogan@cc.utas.edu.au (Jane Hogan) writes:
>I don't intend to limit membership to either gender but the services
>offered by the club and the marketing will be aimed very specifically
>at women. I don't wish to set up a separatist establishment - members
>will have friends/family of both sexes and they should completely free
>to bring them to the club for lunch/drinks whatever but there will
>also be areas of the club that are for private members only.
>
>As far as I can see (certainly here in Tasmania anyway and I don't
>think the rest of Australia is any different) there are numerous
>venues available for mixed socialising and plenty of both public and
>private clubs and hotels where men are by far the predominent
>users/members, but none for women specifically....

In fact there is at least one such club in Melbourne - my mother is
a member. It's the Lyceum Club, and is open to any woman, as I 
understand it, with a degree. Men and other non-members are allowed
as guests of a member, which means that there are often men there,
but predominantly there are women. Now this club was a pretty stuffy
and old-fashioned sort of place, as I recall, but I think they
have the right idea. It is a haven in the middle of the city, and I
used to love meeting my mother and grandmother for lunch there. It
also had rooms for members to stay in, conference rooms, a catering
service, etc.

I think that clubs like this are a good idea, even if they are not
strictly "politically correct" to some, since the fact is that
women DO need such a haven, and DO like to seek out the company
of other women in a relaxed environment. In a better world, maybe,
we wouldn't need them.

Manda.
manda@iias.images.alaska.edu

It's been lovely, but I have to scream now....


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From: eanv20@castle.ed.ac.UK (John Woods)
Newsgroups: soc.feminism
Subject: Women Dramatists
Date: 30 Sep 92 17:25:39 GMT
Article-I.D.: castle.26395
Organization: Edinburgh University

Anyone out there read `How to Suppress Women's Writing' by Joanna
Russ?  It's an extraordinarily powerful and wryly amusing book.  It
got me and the-woman-whose-husband-I-am thinking.  She's an English
Teacher and has been suggesting women authors to her students --- the
canon of literature currently proposed (enforced) by the UK government
is predominantly male.

We found it somewhat harder to discover names of female dramatists
that poets and authors.   Can anyone help?  Sources or names would be
very welcome.

				Thanks.

						...John Woods


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