From: stojanov@husc11.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna
Subject: Re: who was in 'power' in BH (was: Re: Call It An
Date: 13 Nov 92 16:20:38 GMT
Article-I.D.: husc3.1992Nov13.112041.17408
Organization: Harvard University Science Center


I'll cut this posting into few peaces.  Parts interesting from the historical
point of view I'll cross-post on soc.history.  This way level od discussion 
would be better, although, I consider that calling thing with real names,
i.e. forgeries, lies, is O.K., so I'll do that. 
This part is only about present political situation.


In article <BxKx28.FpF@me.utoronto.ca> arnsenad@me.utoronto.ca (Senad Arnautovic) writes:
>stojanov@husc8.harvard.edu (Milan Stojanovic) writes:
>
>
>>Whenever I try to do something better then to correct attempts to play with
>>past and present, something like this appears:
>
>that is to say "whenever things are presented in a way I don't like ..."
>Milan, you possess the absolute knowledge. Milan, you are the wizard
>about which the Balkan revolves.

This was not nice to say.  I understand your feelings. Both of us 
know that "flower without roots is not going to survive." I accept
that my cultural roots also go to the Ottoman empire, I find
that my as ( Serbian ) advantage. Thus I find the whole situation 
in Bosnia also from the cultural point of view, i.e. the erasion of 
important part of my cultural background painful, but forces on
the Serbian side that prevailed, and are for complete detachment 
from everything that has to do with Ottomans, including calling
Sarajevo Vrhbosne again, prevailed because of the stupidity, forgeries 
of the Muslim leaders.  Your denial of your roots, and attempts to 
hide behind figments of imagination ( or selective knowledge ) I find
pathetic.  ( I did not mean to be this harsh, but you asked for this ).
Just go and read the folk-songs of Bosnian or Hercegovinian Muslims,
compare them to the folk-songs of Serbs and you might get impression what
I am talking about. 

>
>>In article <BxKACt.A4z@me.utoronto.ca> arnsenad@me.utoronto.ca (Senad Arnautovic) writes:
>
>>>
>>So it is just a geographical notion.  Good. 
>
>Just like Americans, Canadians etc regardless of religion, ethnic
>background etc. And as long as you are tax-paying, law-abiding citizen
>of Bosnia-Hercegovina. Good that we agree about something.
>


So do you think that Bosnians were ever ethnically ("by race" or
by "genes" to use this expressions, which I personally hate) different
from Serbs ( or Croats )?  
We might agree, that in future, if independent Bosnia survives,
which I doubt, there might be people who would call them self 
Bosnian for other reasons then geographical. Considering the
much stronger forces in favour of decomposition of the land, and
their lack of fear ( they have only contempt for) of "New World Order"
we are going to have dispersed thousands of people talking and 
dreaming of the un-existing nation, un-existing land.  While
people living there would call themselves Serbs or Croats.  Sad,
but realistic.  And you have to thank to Alija's misjudgements.
You can not make Bosnia without consent of Orthodox Serbs or 
Muslims.  Croats are easy to skip, because of their concentration in
only certain parts.

>
>>UDBA made up Muslims as a nation.
>
>Wrong. Can you remember Bosniaks (islamic Bosnians) from 15th century?
>Why would Serbian-run UDBA create a Muslim nation? I think (and history
>shows) that it did opposite: made Muslims scare to admit.

Do not simplify situation.  Both with Islamic Bosnians from
15th century and with "Serbian-run UDBA."  

>
>>About Karadzic's son,  you should not believe
>>everything they serve you as a comfort. It might be 
>>a big blow when you realize that they were lying.
>
>Can you present an evidence to the opposite?
>
>It is not so unusual as you know very well in the case of
>Mr. Draza Mihajlovic (WWII Chetnik leader, equivalent to Mr. Karadzic
>+ Mr. Seselj), whose son fought against his father's forces.
>Milan, can you prove opposite? I am prepared to prove my claim.
>


I find it sad. Both your firm belief and your argumentation.

If Islamic press comes with some news, like "Marsians Visited Alija and
Promised Help," do I have to prove that it is wrong?
Karadzic family was on time evacuated to Pale.  It seems reasonable that
Muslims are trying to represent someone with name Karadzic as family
member to raise the moral.  SRNA ( Serbian) has equally unbelievable 
stories, which I found shameful ( "Alija and Haris caught in bed in 
Brisel," was one of the headlines ). 

So, waiting for your proof.

>>Try to distinguish between sovereignity of the nations and 
>>that of the state.  Whole thing in parliament was because of that.
>
>Can you explain us the difference on the example of
>Albanians in Kosovo in the present Serbian state?
>

Explained many times.  Nations in Yugoslavia had sovereignity, not
national minorities.  For the sake of record, I do believe that something
has to be done on Kosovo and Metohija.

>>>However, I think Mr. Izetbegovic, in his role as the president
>>>of the Slavic Mulsim party, does not represent all Bosnians of
>>>islamic confession and atheists. I do recognise  him as the President
>>>of Rep. of BH, representing all Bosnians.
>
>>Sure, you are Muslim, it is normal that you think like that.  
>>Serbs do not, which is also normal.
>
>I agree with you that it is quite normal for Serbs to show
>no regard to the democratically elected BH president.

First he was elected as representative of Muslims to presidency.
Second, he is only one of the seven members, and has equal powers
as Koljevic&Plavic...  Third, Izetbegovic did not give the most
of votes, Fikret Abdic, much more moderate, and more acceptable to 
Serbs, did.  With the withdrawal of Serbs from presidency, because of the
disrespect for consensus, Alija does not represent Serbs any more.


>It only shows how the Serbs have a very long way to go
>before they embrace democracy and culture.
>That's simbolic significance of the Drina river, the boundary between
>BH and Serbia, between forward and backward looking ways.

Sure, ask Slovenian Minister Tanzig what he thinks about Bosnians, 
no matter of their creed. 

>In anticipation of your rebuttal on culture, let me just mention
>the name of Mr. Ivo Andic, the sole Nobel prize winner
>in literature from the former Yugoslav soil,
>born in Travnik, Bosnia-Hercegovina.
>

First, do not base your anticipations on your upbringing, i.e. on 
the way you were taught to look down on someones culture. Second,
It is surprising to me that you dared to mention Ivo And(r)ic ( I 
hope its only typo, as he is Ivo Andric ) , while Muslims 
brought down his monument in Visegrad ( Mustafa Sabanovic, new
Mujo Hrnjica ). And after Dr. Muhamed Filipovic - Tunja wrote 
that Andric should not be read by Muslims, for the way he represented them.
You missed to read Kusturica's interview.

I find it interesting, and am willing to listen to your explanations.
Three persons the most connected to Bosnia, two of them the only 
Bosnians highly regarded in the Western civilisation - Kusturica, 
Andric and Selimovic, not one of them accepts to be "Bosnian." Two 
of them declared themselves as Serbs ( Andric, although some Croats 
claim that he is Croat, because Travnik is 90+% Croatian, Selimovic ),
one as a Yugoslav, descendant of Orthodox family from Hercegovina. The
last one considers Alija a sick men, and Islamic radical. 



>>Milan N. Stojanovic
>
>Senad Arnautovic


Regards,

Milan N. Stojanovic

P.S. Discussion about who was "Dragon of Bosnia," what was he 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna