HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: hyder@cs.utexas.edu (Syed Irfan Hyder)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: Pakistan
Date: 2 Jan 1993 16:24:55 -0600
Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin
NNTP-Posting-Host: pageboy.cs.utexas.edu

In article <1993Jan2.105447@IASTATE.EDU> jakhan@IASTATE.EDU (Javed Ahmed Khan) writes:
>In article <lk9c71INNn05@pageboy.cs.utexas.edu>, hyder@cs.utexas.edu (Syed Irfan
:Hyder) writes:
:: In article <aftab.725638424@nsisrv: aftab@nsisrv.gsfc.nasa.gov (Aftab
:Ahmad;MU-SPIN/CESDIS) writes:
:: :
:: :	 This thread is on the screen for months now. I did not
:: :see one historical evidence on the above claim. I will really appreciate if
:: :you will join people like myselfin your conversation just by mentioning a
:little
:: :bit on how you got this idea.
:: 

:: What type of historical evidence do you want?
:: Please, mention specifically?
:: 
:
:There is no doubt that Iqbal, Jinnah and others in the Muslim League were
:striving for the creation of a muslim majority Islamic state of Pakistan.
:
:The foundation for this struggle was the belief that (correct me if I am wrong)
:it is impossible for muslims to stay as a minority and are hence ordained by
:Islam that Muslims must strive for the creation of seperate "political"
:Islamic states; even if this means that non-muslims and muslims may be forced to
:abandon their homelands to move to that Islamic state  and many innocent people
:may be killed in the process.
:
:See the distinction. 
:

The only distinction that I see is that the people who oppose the creation of
Pakistan  and were  demanding   "historical evidence", have now
started challenging the  "belief system" of the people who brought into
existence the  Islamic State.


:: Please, tell us. We earnestly want to know what type of evidence you
:: "will" consider historical evidence?
::
:: 1: Do  you want specific quotations from what Iqbal said about his
::     idea of a separate entity?
:: 
:: 2: Do you want to know the actual words of  Jinaah in his  speeches?
:: 
:: 3: If speeches are no good, then do you want specific policy dileneation
::    of Jinnah as in his  14 points?
:: 
:: 4: If that's no good, do you want to know what Muslim League outlined as
::    its policy in the  objective resolution of 1940, presented by
::    Maulvi Fazlul Haq where Minar-e-Pakistan stands today?
:: 
:: 5: Do you want to know the manifesto on which Muslim League contested
::    the 1940 elections?
:: 
:: 6: Do you want to see the actual newspaper clippings of that period,
::    where Jinah, Liaquat ALi khan, Bahadur Yar Jung, and others
::    presented their point of view?
From: rizvi@paul.rutgers.edu (HGR)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: test
Summary: none
Keywords: t
Date: 25 Dec 92 00:41:47 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

test
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: <KONDARED@PURCCVM.BITNET>
Subject: ROOM AVAILABLE IN PURDUE : JAN-AUG
Organization: Purdue University
Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1992 04:04:32 GMT


 I'am looking for someone to share a 2-BEDROOM APARTMENT from Jan-Aug 93
 The apt. is very close to campus. If you know someone who is coming to
 Purdue this spring, give him my address and/or give me his address.
 Thanks a lot for any help.

 Highlights of the room:

   *  OWN ROOM.
   *  SPOTLESSLY CLEAN APARTMENT.
   *  CLOSE TO CAMPUS (1mt + or - 30 secs walk to most buildings in Purdue)
   *  "APT. MATE" :  very easy to get along with.
   *  RENT  :  $227.5 plus half of total utilities (expected $31)
   *  NO DEPOSIT NEEDED.

                     thanks
                     -Sashidhar
______________________________________________________________________________
|Sashidhar K  (Ph.D), MIS, KRANNERT SCHOOL OF MGMT, PURDUE UNIVERSITY        |
|USMAIL: 126, Andrews Place, Apt.2, W.Lafayette, IN 47906. PH# (317) 743 2539|
|............................................................................|
|BITNET: kondared@purccvm       INTERNET: kondared@mace.cc.purdue.edu        |
|............................................................................|
|Everything must end; Meanwhile we must amuse ourselves  - Voltaire          |
|____________________________________________________________________________|
Xref: sparky soc.culture.pakistan:18946 soc.culture.indian:42305 soc.culture.bangladesh:7186
From: sb@flux.isr.alaska.edu (Santanu Bhattacharyya)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.bangladesh,soc.culture.indian
Subject: Re: Bangali boys make good servants (Re: Victory Day in Bangladesh!!!
Date: 23 Dec 92 23:49:19 GMT
Article-I.D.: raven.1992Dec23.234919.727
Organization: Geophysical Institute, Fairbanks, AK

>   They also make excellent fighters, several IAF fighter pilots are 
>   Bengalees!!
>
>   PROUD TO BE A BENGALI
>   Santanu
>----------
>Santanu,
>	I was being sarcastic in response to perceived patronizing tone in
>the Pakistani gentleman's note.
>
>
>Naeem Mohaiemen

Naeem-bhai,
	realised, just couldn't resist!!
Xref: sparky soc.culture.pakistan:19011 soc.culture.indian:42490 soc.culture.bangladesh:7222
From: fafat@aludra.usc.edu (Vijay Fafat)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.indian,soc.culture.bangladesh
Subject: Re: Question to Steve (was Re: The Quran and the Modern Science)
Date: 1 Jan 1993 12:27:28 -0800
Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: aludra.usc.edu

Zafar writes:
>no. science does not call it superstition. scientists, and atheist scientists
>do that. 

	regardless of his/her personal faith, a scientist always looks for a 
	rational explanation rather than invoking God to explain conservation
	of momentum.

>oh btw "scientists" from muslim countries do not call the closeness of what the
>quran says about natural phenomenon with what is generally observed as
>"superstitious". what is your opinion about them?

	Chicanery artists? :)

	FFT
From: khan@ces.cwru.edu (Mansoor Khan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Mussalmano'n ko christmas kaa faa'idaa!
Date: 24 Dec 1992 04:25:54 GMT
Organization: Computer Engineering and Science, Case Western Reserve University
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: king.ces.cwru.edu


	Christmas kaa Faa'idaa
	----------------------

	Roses are reddish
	Violets are bluish
	If it weren't for Christmas
	We'd all be jewish

Mansoor Khan
Cleveland
From: faraz.rabbani@canrem.com (faraz rabbani)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: history of india...
Date: 3 Jan 93 18:35:14 GMT
Reply-To: "faraz rabbani" <faraz.rabbani@canrem.com>
Distribution: soc
Organization: Canada Remote Systems

I am writing a research paper in March about the effect of British
Imperialism on the economy of the Indian sub-continent.  This is
still in a budding stage, and I do not have a well-cooked thesis
yet.

I would _love_ any suggestions anyone might have on _any_ books that
might help...  either on general historical analysis or more
specific areas...

Thanks in advance...

Faraz Rabbani
Toronto, Canada

... We all live in a yellow subroutine.

... The Toronto Blue Jays are WORLD CHAMPIONS!
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
Xref: sparky soc.culture.pakistan:18603 soc.culture.bangladesh:6950 soc.culture.indian:41651
From: fmbutt@engage.sps.mot.com (Farooq M. Butt)
Subject: Re: Private Education in Pakistan
Organization: Motorola RISC Software, Austin, TX
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1992 17:32:12 GMT


Saqib Mausoof sahib writes eloquently about the need for social
revolution in Pakistan.  While I generally agree that we, on the net,
are, by definition Pakistani elites, and thereby afflicted with an
inherent myopia, I do not agree that all capitalist systems are
inappropriate for Pakistan.  When I talk about wealth generation, I do
not mean wealth generation in a vacuum or without any controls.  I
think that is a recipe for disaster in a country like ours.  Rather,
we need directed or managed wealth generation.  A kiln owner should
NOT have the right to use, abuse and exploit his bhatti laborers in
the name of wealth generation and neither should a feudal.  The
government should lay out some basic protections, enforce them and
then get the hell out of the way.  The India that Mausoof sahib
admires is desparately struggling to unshackle itself from a
stultifying socialist bureaucracy.  Socialism is NOT what created the
current miracle in India, here are what IMVHO are the reasons:

  . India is a huge country with a huge indigenous market 
  . India has a lot of natural resources 
  . India has a well-developed higher-education system <- !! NB 
  . India is a relatively stable democracy when compared to Pakistan, 
    this leads to more foreign investement.
  . India is currently toeing the US/West line on nearly everything, this leads
    to benefit$ (as it did for us in the past).

As you can seem the Tata steel-mills and the socialist-inspired large,
heavy industries are NOT the reason for India's success.  One point
where I do agree is that local industries MUST be protected for a
while or, if not outright "protected", then, at least, sheltered in
some way.  Our industries are small, inefficient and immature.  There
is no way they can compete at this point with the West's.  The trick
is going to be how to protect them without overprotecting them and
letting them be inefficient.  Socialim per. se. is a seductive,
egalitarianist ideal, but is not the answer for Pakistan.  We must try
a mix of what Islam teaches us about social welfare and equity and
combine that with the best of Western ingenuity.

fmb
  
-- 
Standard High-Tech Disclaimer: NOTHING  in the above article has the slightest 
relationship to reality. If any reality correspondences are found, please 
notify me IMMEDIATELY. Any threats, abuse or stupidity of any kind is purely 
UNintentional. These are MY Opinions NOT my employer's.
From: khan@ces.cwru.edu (Mansoor Khan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Houbara Smuggling
Date: 23 Dec 1992 17:41:26 GMT
Organization: Computer Engineering and Science, Case Western Reserve University
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: king.ces.cwru.edu



	Man with 215 bustards arrested
	------------------------------

Saad Shafqat posted an article talking about Dec' 92 Newyorker's issue.
There was a story on Arabs' hunting passion and their trips to Pakistan
for illegal  hunting of houbara. I read the article, it is interesting.
As always, people like Talpur(LVQ), Bugti( LVQ), BBB( LVQ) and NoSharif( LVQ)
are involved.
These  people have ruined Pakistan and will keep on doing so for ever, but....
there was an article in Voice of Asia relevant to this issue. 

Note: Voice of Asia is published from Houston, Tx.

Pakistani officials have arrested a man trying to smuggle 215 rare houbara
bustards to the Gulf where the birds are prized as having aphrodisiac
qualities, custom officials said on Monday, December 7.
	Lal Bakhsh, from central Punjab province, was charged with smuggling, 
the officials said.
	Bakhsh told officials that one bustard fetched 8,000 rupees( $311) in
Ras-al-Khaima, the biggest market for bustards. 
	A wildlife conservation official said it was the biggest bustard 
consignment for many years.
	A court recently banned Arab Sheikhs from hunting the bird in
Southern Pakistan. Pakistanis are banned from hunting the
bustard, but the government has issued special permits for visiting 
Arab Sheikhs.
	Bustard hunting was prohibited under the Sind Wildlife  Protection
Ordinance in 1972 and several PAkistanis have been prosecuted for hunting and possessing the bird, which flies to Pakistan from Central Asia in the winter.

Mansoor Khan
Cleveland, Ohio
From: hyder@cs.utexas.edu (Syed Irfan Hyder)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: Pakistan is lilbit different from Israel
Date: 27 Dec 1992 14:49:58 -0600
Organization: CS Dept, University of Texas at Austin
NNTP-Posting-Host: pageboy.cs.utexas.edu

In article <1992Dec26.222747@IASTATE.EDU> jakhan@IASTATE.EDU (Javed Ahmed Khan) writes:
>
>
>Was it a referendrum on the creation of Pakistan?
>

It was a refrendum on whether Muslim League represents the  Muslims
of subcontinent or not. The vote clearly demonstrated that indeed
Muslim League is the representative of the aspiration of the Muslims
of subcontinent. As to what the aspirations were, read the slogans
and manifesto on which M.L. contested the elections. Note objective
resolution of M.L. of 1940 was not a secret in 1946!

Pakistan ka mutlub kiya la illaha illa allah

was the most popular slogan used by M.L. to rally 
the Muslims around the M.L's objectives. Read any
book on the events of that election.
From: rroy@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Raja R Roy)
Subject: Re: Quaid-e-Azam's Birth Day
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 19:25:07 GMT



In article <1h7if2INNces@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> shamim@onyx.egr.msu.edu (Tariq Sha
mim) writes:
>
>To all Pakistanis and Freedom lovers,
>
>Happy Quaid Day (25 December)!!!!
>
>Please pay your tributes to the Founder of Pakistan, Quaid-e-Azam (Great Leade
r)
>Mohammed Ali Jinnah.  Only very few individuals can change the course of histo
ry
>or change the map of the world, he did both of them.  
>
Change the course of history!!! I thought that happened in sci-fi movies.

Raja	

>Tariq Shamim
>Mechanical Engineering
>Michigan State University
From: shafqat@neuro.duke.edu (Saad Shafqat)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Re: Private Education in Pakistan
Date: 27 Dec 92 18:24:23 GMT
Organization: Duke University; Durham, N.C.

In article <1992Dec27.023349.10687@newton.ccs.tuns.ca> jamalin@newton.ccs.tuns.ca (Nadeem Jamali) writes:

>                              It's so frustrating to try 
>discussing with you. You just have a perception of what you
>consider a fact and your whole purpose in a discussion is
>to try to prove that you're right. Never have I seen you
>make even a semi-conscious effort to understand anything
>beyond your preconceived ideas. The approach you take puts
>serious limitations on your ability to engage in a 
>_sincere_ discussion.


What a coincidence!  I have exactly the same feelings about you,:-).
Nadeem, I would very much like to be your friend and, for a while,
I think I even was.  We can teach other a lot.  But we are the
prisoners of our own ethnicities.  Communication is a way around
that, but a Pakistani upbringing has taught us to take disagreement
as a personal insult and that makes for an explosive mix.  In a
way, our animosity mirrors the Sindhi-muhajir conflict back home.
From your vantage, I represent the immigrant who has done better by
exploiting the native.  From my side, you represent the native who
denies the immigrant his due out of spite and senseless rage.
Both positions are only partially correct and neither is completely
justified.  Happiness is in the middle ground.

I did not make up those stories about Asif.  If the
courts cannot convict him on the evidence, I wish him freedom
and happiness.  He isn't all bad, I am sure.  At least you should
acknowledge he isn't all good.  I am not making up those stories
about him.  His behaviour at AKU in 1987 will not be forgotten by
any who had to deal with him, such as several of my former
classmates, including Jamal Mubarak, a former scp regular.  If
you are serious, I can give you addresses of several people
currently in the US who would corroborate what I have told you.  As
for the eviction of that poor family, why don't you write them
at 22-A Sunset Street, Defence Society Phase II, Karachi 75500,
Pakistan, and check the story out for yourself ?


--
From: khan@ces.cwru.edu (Mansoor Khan)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: Jesus kee Ram kehaani!
Date: 24 Dec 1992 04:40:25 GMT
Organization: Computer Engineering and Science, Case Western Reserve University
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: king.ces.cwru.edu

		May be Jesus knew more than we do!
		----------------------------------


	Jesus is in a town where the townfolks are about to stone a 
woman for committing adultery. "Let him without sin cast the first stone,"
he proclaimed to the crowd.
	From the crowd steps an old woman who flings a huge boulder at the
adultress, killing her instantly.
	Jesus looks at the old woman and shakes his head in disgust.
	"You know, Ma, you really know how to piss me off."


P.S. Outrageously Offensive Jokes II, 1984

Mansoor Khan
Cleveland, Ohio
From: hwhfac@umiami.ir.miami.edu
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
Subject: NILLLLLLLLLL
Date: 26 Dec 92 11:41:52 EST
Organization: Univ of Miami IR

TESTING...........

Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan
From: "faraz rabbani" <faraz.rabbani@canrem.com>
Subject: re: question to steve (wa
Reply-To: "faraz rabbani" <faraz.rabbani@canrem.com>
Organization: Canada Remote Systems
Distribution: soc
Date: 3 Jan 93 18:19:59 EST

 >oh btw "scientists" from muslim countries do not call the closeness of what
 >the quran says about natural phenomenon with what is generally observed as
 >"superstitious". what is your opinion about them?
 SG> Of course scientists in muslim countries don't call anything in
 SG> the quran superstition.  They are not stupid.  They have heard
 SG> of Salman Rushdie.  They know the fate of those who upset the
 SG> religious "leaders" of Islam.  Who do you think you are kidding?

 To which gardner@convex.com (Steve Gardner) replied:
 SG> If Islam were the obvious truth you claim it to be then why is it
 SG> necessary to intimidate those offend with their lack of faith?
 SG> Salman Rushdie would be the object of scorn perhaps, but never the
 SG> object of a death sentence.  How many people who believe silly things
 SG> about science (e.g. people who believe that perpetual motion machines
 SG> are possible) are ever persecuted?  Ask yourself why!  (And for
 SG> crying out loud stop trying to fool people with such transparent
 SG> sophistry).

For six months after the release of the book, there had been a lot
of protests against Rushdie and his novel -- like the protest
against Scorcese's "Last Temptation" and against Sinead O'Connor's
ripping of the Pope's photo on SNL.  THEN the edict was issued by
the Ayatollah Khomeini. 

As a religious leader per se, Khomeini represented the beliefs of a
minority -- around 20% at best -- of Muslims. 

What blew his pronouncement out of proportion and gave it a lot of
power in the Muslim world and to Muslims in general were two
factors.  One is the hate much of the Muslim world has for Western
cultural self-righteousness and disregard for the possiblity that
others might have different beliefs and opinions which should, at
least, be respected.  Second is the fact that much of the Muslim
world has been subjected to Western colonialism and present-day
economic colonialism and, for that reason, dislikes "the West".
This is mainly due to the fact that leaders in the Muslim world, and
elsewhere, find it easy to incite hate of the West as a rallying
symbol -- the hate exists.

Consequently, the "Rushdie death sentence" was as much the result of
two cultures and societies living at an angle to each other as it
was the result of the West's "Green menace" -- Islamic
"fundamentalism".

Faraz Rabbani
Toronto, Canada

faraz.rabbani@canrem.com

... If there is no God, who pops up the next Kleenex?  
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--
Canada Remote Systems  - Toronto, Ontario
World's Largest PCBOARD System - 416-629-7000/629-7044
Xref: sparky soc.culture.pakistan:18885 soc.culture.bangladesh:7141 soc.culture.indian:42124
From: imustafa@slate.mines.colorado.edu (MUSTAFA IBRAHIM )
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.bangladesh,soc.culture.indian
Subject: Re: Difference
Date: 28 Dec 92 02:30:04 GMT
Organization: Colorado School of Mines

In article <1hi8ttINN27i@hsc.usc.edu> banerjee@hsc.usc.edu (Samit Banerjee) writes:
>In article <BzuK2v.G1r@news.cso.uiuc.edu> nd3375@meibm5.cen.uiuc.edu (Nishit Dey) writes:
>>>So many dogs barking at me . How wonderful :-)))))))))
>>				            ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>  Very soon I will find somebody who will be willing to keep you as a pet.
>>Hey fafat and samit, will you guys keep Mustafa IDIOT for few days till I
>>move to an apartment where pets are allowed.
>
>Heavens NO!!!! What a sacrilegious idea. Keep a filthy, abused, discarded
>mongrel that no one else wants, as a pet. Surely that's not what you are 
>suggesting!  Why, you couldn't even pay me to kick his behind, let alone 
>allow him to rove unwanted and unsupervised in my home. 
>
>I have a better idea. Why don't we set up a "Help Mustafa doggie" fund with
>charitable (and yes tax deductible!!) donations from people on SCI, have him
>neutered and put him up for adoption in Somalia or South Korea. I have always 
>heard that they make a wonderful dog stew down there.
>
>Ah, the culinary extents some people will go to..........
>-- 
>Samit Banerjee,			    |  
>University of Southern California   |  A man who smiles when things go wrong,
>Internet: banerjee@scf.usc.edu      |  has found somebody to blame it on.
>Bellnet : (213) 342-1401            |  

What else can an itching dog do ? :-))))))))))))))
Newsgroups: soc.culture.pakistan,soc.culture.bangladesh,soc.culture.indian
From: nd3375@meibm5.cen.uiuc.edu (Nishit Dey)
Subject: Re: Difference
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1992 04:57:13 GMT

imustafa@slate.mines.colorado.edu (MUSTAFA IBRAHIM ) writes:


>I would prefer donkey


Sorry honey, they don't prefer you..


Nishit
From: aftab@nsisrv.gsfc.nasa.gov (Aftab Ahmad;MU-SPIN/CESDIS)
Subject: Re: Pakistan
Organization: Goddard Space Flight Center
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 13:39:45 GMT

jakhan@IASTATE.EDU (Javed Ahmed Khan) writes:


>In article <ljffptINNdao@pageboy.cs.utexas.edu>, hyder@cs.utexas.edu (Syed Irfan
>Hyder) writes:


>> >
>> >Why was he unable to see that the ideology of the state he wished to create
>> >would necessarily discriminate against non-muslims; that it would lead
>neighbor
>> >to fight neighbor; cause the massacre of millions of innocent people.
>> 
>> Well, he never knew that he  counted on people like us who are 
>>  spine-less, dream less, lethargic, inept, 
>> 	destitute in will, energy, and courage
>> 	 capable of doing nothing except bicker
>> 	about the past, instead of shaping the future.

>Then he was a poor judge of people; a great poet but a poor leader.



>> 
>> >Why did he believe that a true "islamic" society could only be created by 
>> >creating an "islamic" state? 
>> 
>> Yes, I wonder why?
>> May be  he should have directly insisted on  a global empire!



>Doesn't answer the question. Why is a *political state* required to establish
>an "islamic" society ?


	The concept of political state was not known to Arabs of that time.
(Haroon ur Rasheed discovered Aristotle). But as a natural law, when you
get a population in an area, there has to be some implicit or explicit system
to make life work. If you remember the early history of prophet Muhammad the
people of Meccah offered him the premiership of the tribes, but he squarely
declined as it was not his purpose to rule. Now when population of Muslims
increased to a point that they had the key of cities in their hands, it was
a totally new experience to them - and upto day they are an unsuccess. The
only way of transfer of power after the first caliph was the killing the
previous head (is it different today?).
	The other problem with them was/is that they are too proud to learn
from anyone (now it includes their own Book and history) thinking themselves
as perfect. The time when George Washington in America kicked the Brit. butt,
some Mughal in India was probabely killing his brothers or may be taking their
eyes out. How could they have a political system at all?
How is the concept of requiring a political state for spreading
a religion different from Fascism?
	Pakistan was for a minority of India and not for any idealogy. 


>So what does this tell us? Kill and drive out people who are not called muslims
>from their lands ? 

>If that is what is being preached in the Quran, then it surely isn't a book of
>God.

	
>--Javed.