HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: anti-bi's
From: woodhous@latcs2.lat.oz.au (Joe P Woodhouse)
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 02:50:12 GMT
Organization: Comp Sci, La Trobe Uni, Australia

s882916@otto (Vikki POLLARD) writes:
>I have never had hostility about being bisexual directed at me from the
>lesbian communiyt. I think it is a bit of an urban myth about lesbians
>being anti-male.

   Gee, Vikki, I guess we didn't tell you about the very friendly and
chatty dyke in the Glasshouse (whom assumed Karina and I were both
monosexual) cheerfully telling us about how she absolutely distrusts
bisexual women since they'll "always leave you for a man". (She didn't
seem to mind the fact that lesbians will always leave you for a woman,
mind you).

   Or about how half a dozen lesbians pulled out from the (then)
Gay & Lesbian Society on campus, saying they would never be back if
the group was going to let bisexual men attend and participate.

   Or about when Karina & I gave a talk to the Melbourne Uni monosexual
groups about bisexuality and some of the lesbians there were telling
us that they were revolted by the idea of being around men who might
be able to find them attractive.

   Or about the lesbians on campus who admitted they could only see
bisexual women as sleeping with the enemy.

   And I also seem to recall you telling me that it wasn't until you'd
slept with a few of them that your lesbian friends even really believed
that you were Bi, eh?


>It's interesting to note that I have received a bit of shit from gay men.
>I have been refused entry to a mixed night club 'cos there were too many
>of "them" in there. I think the boucner was referring to women. I have
>also been abused by men in there.

   If that's the Peel you're talking about, they're actually on record in
the local queer press as saying they'd rather have het couples in there
than let "too many" dykes in. I'm also told that women on their own have
enormous troubles getting in. I've known other sexual assaults of men
upon women to occur there, too.

Joe.

  / Joe Woodhouse        / I'm just a sweet bisexual...   / Hello, there.
 / Latrobe University   /    (think - Rocky Horror)      / Threesomes are fun.
/ Melbourne, Australia / Music. Magic. Mathematics. Me. / I like cats! (miaow!)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: cjmchale@dsg.cs.tcd.ie (Ciaran McHale)
Subject: "equal" or "same" roles
Organization: DSG, Dept. of Computer Science, Trinity College Dublin
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 22:41:38 GMT


Note: The Subject: line used to be "Re: Attack of the Seperatists", but
this is a very tangential point so I changed it.

In <iw.724524998@tosser> iw@tosser.Rational.COM (The_Devine_Dolly) writes:
>[often men don't understand issues which affect women; straight people
>often don't understand issues which affect GLB folk etc.]
>
>So while I would like to think that the oppressed and their supporters
>can be unified, I do not believe any more that both can play equal
>roles in the liberation of the oppressed.

The word "equal" in the above sticks in my throat a bit because it is
often used in a context where it implies value. (As in "If two things
aren't equal then one must have greater value than the other.")

The word "same" does not have this same value-oriented baggage, and I
think that it might have served better in the quoted paragraph above. I
certainly agree that the oppressed and their supporters often cannot
play the *same* roles in working for liberation. But I am not sure if
any one role is necessariarly of greater value than another. I prefer
to think of different roles having their respective values measured in
different units (e.g., apples and oranges; volume and weight etc.)

Certainly, I am convinced that this is a great way to view different
activist tactics. For example: a Queer Nation kiss-in is worth 3
apples, writing letters to local politicians is worth 2 oranges, and
coming out to somebody in college/work is worth 1 pineapple; they are
all valuable, but their values are measured in different units and
hence their values are uncomparable.

In this posting I guess I am wondering out loud if this way of viewing
activism can also be applied to the division of oppressed/supporter in
the same way that I apply it to the division of different activist
tactics.

Comments, anyone?


Ciaran.
-- 
---- Ciaran McHale (cjmchale@dsg.cs.tcd.ie)
\bi/ Department of Computer Science, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland.
 \/  Telephone: +353-1-7021539 FAX: +353-1-6772204
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: cjmchale@dsg.cs.tcd.ie (Ciaran McHale)
Subject: Age of soc.bi (Was: Hi!)
Organization: DSG, Dept. of Computer Science, Trinity College Dublin
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 15:52:51 GMT

In <1992Dec14.192906.4014@ultb.isc.rit.edu>
kdc5072@ultb.isc.rit.edu (K.D. Colagio) writes:
>Ciaran McHale writes:
>> Soc.bi has only been around for about 14 months
>
>hmmm, Ciaran, you may want to check you calendar...I have been reading
>soc.bi since at least last oct...that is 14 right there and we had well
>over 4000 posts at that time...

Here is an article from October 1991 which confirms the age of soc.bi.

----cut here----
From: tale@rpi.edu (David C Lawrence)
Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups
Subject: New Groups Summary
Date: 21 Oct 91 04:57:50 GMT

The following USENET groups have passed their votes as posted here and
are being newgrouped following their five day waiting period, barring
any serious objection.

GROUP                   DESCRIPTION
                        VOTE RESULTS, ADD DATE and SUBMISSION ADDRESS
==============================================================================
soc.bi                  Discussions of bisexuality.
                        349:51  22 Oct
[...]
----cut here----


Ciaran.
-- 
---- Ciaran McHale (cjmchale@dsg.cs.tcd.ie)
\bi/ Department of Computer Science, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland.
 \/  Telephone: +353-1-7021539 FAX: +353-1-6772204
From: J.W.Harley@newcastle.ac.uk (Jon Harley)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Help! I've been killfiled and I can't get out!
Date: 17 Dec 92 17:56:34 GMT
Organization: University of Newcastle upon Tyne, UK, NE1 7RU

rsr@soda.berkeley.edu (Roy S. Rapoport) writes:

[130 lines of self-justification and flame deleted]

>-roy, who's feeling rather cool and rational at the point, actually, despite
> having finished replying to the most virulent flame he's ever seen directed
> against himself.  

Not rational enough to junk the article, though. What *is* the point of
_posting_ a huge article, all addressed in the second person to someone whom
you know is not going to read it?

(Nick Nicholas has also just posted a 105 line article entitled something
like "More Total Blatant Fluff", but at least the people it's directed at -
a veritable who's who of soc.bi - are going to read it, and maybe even
enjoy it.
)

This isn't a flame, only a plea to people to think for a tiny moment what
their post is going to contribute to the group... I couldn't care less about
the net's hundreds if not thousands of dollars, but there are those of us
who download news onto our own equipment, and hence pay out of our own
pockets for the phone time. I'm prepared to download fluff but I draw the
line at flames.


/jon 
   ___________________ ____ ________________________________________
  / -- Jonathan Harley \  /_    And they covered up the sun        //    //  //
 / J.W.Harley@ncl.ac.uk \/ /   until the birds had flown away...  // // //////
/_Phone:UK 091 222 8504__\/___________________________________///////////  //
From: muffy@remarque.berkeley.edu (Muffy Barkocy)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Help! I've been killfiled and I can't get out!
Date: 16 Dec 92 19:36:33
Organization: Natural Language Incorporated
	<1gmsfuINNmvn@agate.berkeley.edu>
	<1992Dec16.155843.25875@cbnews.cb.att.com>
	<1goq9eINN6ks@agate.berkeley.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: remarque.berkeley.edu
In-reply-to: rsr@soda.berkeley.edu's message of 17 Dec 1992 02:56:46 GMT

In article <1goq9eINN6ks@agate.berkeley.edu> rsr@soda.berkeley.edu (Roy S. Rapoport) writes:
>[...] I would like to know if people dislike me
>for reasons that I can/want to change, or just because of something else .. 

Roy, you *know* why Dan does not like you.  You apparently do not wish
to change.  So, that is already settled.  Also, as Eleanor pointed out,
he is *not* going to read your post, and other people already know
whether they agree or disagree with him.  Therefore, what *was* the
point?

Muffy
--

Muffy Barkocy                      | ~Can you tell me how much bleeding/it
muffy@mica.berkeley.edu            |  takes to fill a word with meaning and/
"amorous inclinations"? Aha! I'm   |  how much how much death it takes/to give
not "not straight," I'm *inclined*.|  a slogan breath?~ - Bruce Cockburn
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: dbshapco@napier.uwaterloo.ca (Brad Shapcott)
Subject: Re: Roy's "consenting" slave
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 18:35:58 GMT


# Roy writes:
#-> Brad writes:
#
#->As for 'knowledgeable' in any respect, I don't remember you from about
#->four to eight months ago when I was posting here more regularly (and
#->reading more regularly, in fact), so I'm at a loss at how you can make any
#->such characterization :-?.  Two posts hardly serves to summarize my entire
#->personality (though perhaps I'm being egotistical?).
#
#I don't particularly know how knowledgeable you are when it comes to soc.bi
#and bisexuality-related issues.  I _do_ believe that you've described
#yourself as pretty much an observer when it comes to BDSM.

However, I do not need to be wet to know when it is raining.  If we only
understood that which we participated in, humans would either have to get
really busy to be at all learned, or we'd have very limited perspectives.

It's a problem that comes up often -- how much can we understand the
situation of one whose experience and affiliations we do not share?
It depends on how sympathetic and empathetic the person trying to
understand is, but I don't believe it is not possible.

#  I also believe
#that to say what I _thought_ you said, i.e. that there are very strong
#similarities between D/s and abusive relationships, is something that
#_nobody_ is knowledgeable enough to say, I think.  Including people who are
#_much_ more knowledgeable about BDSM than I am (I'm a newbie).

And, in contrast, there may be things about BDSM that cannot be understood
except by someone with the psychic distance to be impartial about them.
Or so I would think.

#-roy


Brad
From: ptd2@po.CWRU.Edu (Palmer T. Davis)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Introduction, or De-Muffining
Date: 15 Dec 1992 01:09:05 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
Reply-To: ptd2@po.CWRU.Edu (Palmer T. Davis)
NNTP-Posting-Host: thor.ins.cwru.edu


In a previous article, safarj@jec311.its.rpi.edu (Jonah Emanuel Safar) says:

>moragw@castle.ed.ac.uk (Alloy Serving Woman) writes:
>
>>RE: And is everyone so tall around here?
>>I don't know about the others but I'm 5'10 and I _love_ being tall (and
>>maybe its the only thing I'm not so insecure about...)
>
> Well, I wouldn't call 5'10" tall... but certainly not short either.  Hell,
>I'm 5'10" and like it just fine. :) Okay folks, here's an intersting question,
>what is the perfect height?

Why, 5'10", of course!

-- PTD --
(70" long, and damed proud of it.... ;-) )
-- 
Palmer T. Davis      ___
<ptd2@po.cwru.edu>   \X/   cthread.  cthread_fork().  Fork, thread, fork!
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: eleanor@cbnews.cb.att.com (Piglet)
Subject: Re: Help! I've been killfiled and I can't get out!
Organization: we don't need no steenking organization....
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 15:51:23 GMT

In article <BzDF0o.GLE@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> dbshapco@napier.uwaterloo.ca (Brad Shapcott) writes:
>
>  You never broaden your horizons by
>exposure to only those things that you find wholly pleasant and in
>accord with your sensibilities.  It can't be that every thing Roy
>talks about irritates the hell out of Dan, although perhaps the way
>he presents it does.

True, however, most people broaden their horizons selectively.
There's only so much energy I have to spend on various
activities.  I'd rather spend it constructively--broadening
my horizons where it seems to be effective, and filtering to
improve the signal-to-noise ratio.  We're a lot more receptive
to the content of messages whose style doesn't irritate us.

>(Course, I also find it odd that someone has a 'favourite [person] in
>the world' that they have never met :-?)

That's probably because you've put the quotes in the wrong place,
adjusting the emPHAsis incorrectly.  It's favorite person-in-the-
world-whom-I-have-never-met.  Different from favorite person-in-
the-world-whom-I-have-met.  Oh, and I do hope to remedy that
whom-I-have-never-met real-soon-now.


Piglet, still looking for a Piglet stamp...
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: rwab1@cl.cam.ac.uk (Ralph Becket)
Subject: Re: Moms, and getting them back
Reply-To: Ralph.Becket@cl.cam.ac.uk
Organization: U of Cambridge Comp Lab, UK
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 10:09:43 GMT

> now I'm not going home for Christmas (for the second time in
> my life--and the first time was over 10 years, and I was in
> another country---Scotland, in fact...).

Parents, eh? Who'd have 'em? Have a warm cuddle from me.

Ralph.
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: jcarroll@bach.udel.edu (Royal J Carroll)
Subject: Re: Introduction, or De-Muffining
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 10:33:39 GMT

In article <1992Dec12.012308.19404@athena.cs.uga.edu> wells@athena.cs.uga.edu (Scott Wells) writes:
>
>Says the Wells in Georgia:
>
>Dammit. It was my out-coming that started this string. *sniff*
>And no-one is coming to *snuffled gasp, sniff* see me.
>
*hug*

>Scott
>
>6'3", dark short hair, brown eyes, bisexual, and horny as ....
>                       ^^^^^
>
>And is everyone so tall around here ?
>

Well...I'm 6'2", dark short hair, brown eyes, bisexual, and getting hornier...

>-- 
>Scott Wells                        +  Get thee behind me Satan !
>Internet: wells@athena.cs.uga.edu  + 
>University of Georgia		   +  Looking for families: Wells, Fox (TN)
>Athens, Georgia, USA               +  Coatney (TN), Wilvert (PA)

-James

-- 
You touch my eyes and hypnotize and slip inside my heart      | jcarroll@
I wait for this forever but we always fall apart	      | brahms.udel.edu
You want to hold me closer, and secretly entice		      -----------------
You take the size of shawdowed men, and punish me with kisses every night
Xref: sparky soc.bi:16819 soc.motss:53028
From: mlloyd@ocf.berkeley.edu (M. Lloyd)
Newsgroups: soc.bi,soc.motss
Subject: Re: Liberty (was something relevant about CO-2 long ago...)
Date: 18 Dec 1992 21:48:16 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility
NNTP-Posting-Host: tsunami.berkeley.edu

alan@auntbea.austin.ibm.com (Alan R. Weiss) writes:
>eleanor@cbnews.cb.att.com (Piglet) writes:
>>Now, I say that language works for us, not we for it.  It's time
>>there was a neutral pronoun in English.  Along with a neutral
>>reference to "man" in the sense of "mankind", and so on.  All
>>such constructs as "poetess" "actress" "sculptress" "authoress"
>>should be shot at dawn and burned in effigy.  Along with "Miss"
>>and "Mrs.".

Absolutely.  "When I get called a poetess, it just brings out the
terroristress in me."  Somebody had better tell me who I'm quoting that
from (and probably inaccurately to boot).

>Then propose something, and start a campaign to get people to use
>it.  Howzabout these:
>
>	woman		womyn
>	his/her		just substitute the plural "their"
>	him/her		herm
>	He/She		Sheesh
>	Edwin Newman	Edwin Newperson

*chortle*  But we have a few already.  I've been a "their" user for a
long time, but have recently switched to sie/hir.  I'm less keen on the
kir-type constructs, just because of the feel: my preference is for the
harder to pronounce, but less Germanic (no offence - it just jars).  In
spoken stuff, I use they/their exclusively.  I'm kinda taken with
"herm", though, given my penchant for androgeny. :-)

>English (and most other languages) evolve in response to demand.
>But, as marketing people know, demand can be created.  But not by
>anger or politically-motivated means -- people respond much better
>if the new "good" or "service" is attractive.  Figure out a way
>to make the new language attractive to use (instead of a grim
>faced moralistic necessity), and people will jump on it quickly.
>For example, if its hip to use gender-neutral/feminist-sensitive
>language ......

Hey, I don't think I've ever agreed with someone who self-described as
Fascist before ... :-)  Sure, it has to be hip.  That's the focus of the
debate about Madonna.  That's kinda why I love the way the opponents of
dropping him/his sound so whiny and tight-assed when they leap to defend
something that is far more robust and likely to survive than they are -
English, as she is spoke.  These days it's not just unhip, it's plain,
old-fashioned clueless to be so ignorant of gender bias.

Mike

PS Alan, the HugFest may well be (OK, is) going on over in soc.bi, but I
don't let it slip into the soc.motss crossposts a whole lot, given that
the pro/con count over fluffies is 0 for 1, that I've seen.  You can
have a subtle one while we're about it, though.
-- 
Mike Lloyd, B0/1 h- f- t w- g+ k+ s m- e? |    "Bloody nose and burning eyes
      Retro-hippy, music nut, bi and      |  Raised in laughter to the skies"
          backrubber of devotion          |                 - Bruce Cockburn
               --The end of confusion is the beginning of death--
From: jcarroll@bach.udel.edu (Royal J Carroll)
Subject: Re: Okay, I gotta problem...
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 09:37:30 GMT

In article <Bz2w9H.Eux@news.udel.edu> 41437@ravel.udel.edu (Kimberly Ann Reuter) writes:
>kimberly ann reuter(kim) and the address is 41437@brahms.udel.edu
>btw this is my first post
>

Now that you've de-muffined, I can open declare: Yay! Kim's here! Welcome!
(And the Delaware contingent grows!)

<pounce> <nibble> *slurp* *HUG*

If you become as prolific as Jim & Zoe, I don't think I'll ever catch up
on my reading! :-)

-James

-- 
You touch my eyes and hypnotize and slip inside my heart      | jcarroll@
I wait for this forever but we always fall apart	      | brahms.udel.edu
You want to hold me closer, and secretly entice		      -----------------
You take the size of shawdowed men, and punish me with kisses every night
From: dbshapco@napier.uwaterloo.ca (Brad Shapcott)
Subject: Re: Help! I've been killfiled and I can't get out!
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 23:41:02 GMT


In article <BzEH4M.1F6@cck.coventry.ac.uk> idx009@cck.coventry.ac.uk (the Crisco
 Kid) writes:
>In article <BzDF0o.GLE@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> dbshapco@napier.uwaterloo.c
a (Brad Shapcott) writes:
>
>I think that's a misparse, Brad; should have been parsed as 'favourite
>person-whom-I've-never-met in the world'.  I've got one of those, too;
>I think (hope) that it won't be too long before I meet them.  Then
>(alas) they'll lose the 'favourite person' distinction.

*Now* it makes perfect sense!

>>>How does one spell achieve, anyway?  I started with acheive, then
>>>switched to achieve, which looks right, but I'm confused......
>>'i before e except after c' (directly after, that is)
>>('and when they say "ay" as in neighbour and weigh')
>>So it is achieve.
>
>By that reason, you'd spell "wierd" and "wier".

Well, they didn't fit the grade school rhyme, so mispelling (sp?) them (and
others like 'their') is quite all right.

Plus, the master rule to English *is* "Exception is the rule".

>Does anyone know how to (if you can) trap all the exceptions?  I suspect
>this is an alt.usage.english question, mind you.  (Sara? Graham? Paul?)

Good luck with that one.

>                               Kay


                                Brad

Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: gtoal@pizzabox.demon.co.uk (Graham Toal)
Subject: Re: Sexual consent (Was: Roy's "consenting" slave)
Organization: Cuddlehogs Anonymous
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 23:28:55 GMT

In article <1992Dec20.195448.27957@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> arodgers@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Angus H Rodgers) writes:
:The first time I quoted these passages, a rather frightening lurker
:e-mailed me: first advocating the use of guns, and then immediately
:afterwards, saying (I quote) "Fuck you", for my apparent defence of
:feminist bigotry. (I was never more glad of the existence of the 
:Atlantic Ocean.)

Is it just me, or are the lurkers round here getting weirder lately?  I've
had some pretty strange mail these last few months.  I know the women get
a lot of straight guys trying to pick up the proverbial hot bi babes, but
I'm talking about real weirdos...

G
(The sort who if it was written mail you'd expect to have sprawling spidery
writing...)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: h431@quads.uchicago.edu (heather e blair)
Subject: Re: Sexual consent (Was: Roy's "consenting" slave)
Reply-To: h431@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 02:54:25 GMT

In article <1992Dec20.195448.27957@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> arodgers@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Angus H Rodgers) writes:
>In <1992Dec19.211201.18627@midway.uchicago.edu>
>h431@quads.uchicago.edu (heather e blair) writes:
>
>>You're probably right, but I think I can see how this might happen when a
>>"clueless" person (of either sex) who thinks passivity = consent runs into
>>one of those people (again of either sex) who "freezes" when confronted by
>>unwanted sexual attention.  Bad combo.  Both need re-education.
>
>This has happened to me. 
>
>I'm male, and the Clueless One was female.
>
>In this situation, I was standing stock still, rigid, and weeping;
>and she just didn't get the message, and literally dragged me upstairs
>for what she called a "massage". 
>
>I literally *couldn't say no*. I didn't know what was happening, and
>I was in terror, and I felt I had no rights of any kind.

I'm so sorry that happened.

>I agree about the need for "re-education" of both parties in such
>transactions.
>
>I, in particular, need to learn not to be such a wimp.

Me too.  I'm trying to expand my area of the right to say "no".  
It's work, ain't it?
>
>But who is there to teach that sort of lesson? (The answer,
>"psychotherapists", won't wash: because, from my extensive
>experience of such people, the pun on the word "the-rapist"
>is spot-on.)

Sorry about that too.  A self-defense course helped me somewhat.

>--
>Gus Rodgers,  Dept. of Computer Science, |  [Profound thought for 1993]
>Queen Mary & Westfield College, Mile End |     "Philishave is about
>Road, London, England.   +44 71 975 5241 |      personal choice" 
>E-mail (JANET):   arodgers@dcs.qmw.ac.uk |             -- TV advert


-- 

- Heather Blair       h431@midway.uchicago.edu
Newsgroups: soc.bi,soc.motss
From: seamus@ravel.udel.edu (James G Dilmore)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: anti-bi's
Date: 16 Dec 92 20:55:55 GMT
Organization: University of Delaware

In article <iw.724524469@tosser> iw@tosser.Rational.COM (The_Devine_Dolly) writes:
>rsr@soda.berkeley.edu (Roy S. Rapoport) writes:
>
>
>>As for the 'urban myth about lesbians being anti-male', I suspect entirely
>>too many men automatically convert "not interested in men" to "anti-men".
>
>See ... we agree more that you can imagine.  This was the hot button
>you pressed for me.  What you say is very true!
>
>Iseult.

Thank god.  When I saw the last two headers I just cringed that you three
were going to start flaming here.

Yeah us.

-- 
Jim Dilmore - seamus@brahms.udel.edu    or    dilmore@che.udel.edu 
               SILENCE = DEATH      Safe sex doesn't mean no sex.          
Give me life, Give me pain,         It just means use your imagination. 
Give me myself again.  Tori Amos.            Billy Bragg 
Newsgroups: soc.bi