From: markc@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU ()
Subject: Re: Time Lords and Gallifreyans
Organization: school of Mathematics UNSW
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 02:54:11 GMT


In article <1992Oct6.014715.23281@usage.csd.unsw.OZ.AU> markc@hydra.maths.unsw.EDU.AU () writes:
>utters the line about "the Time lords gathering " in the panopticon.
>( I forget the exact line). Ian Robert Asplin argues that this must mean 
>that Runcible is not a Time Lord, because it would be like Dan Rather saying
>"around me, the humans are gathering...". I think this reasoning is false,
>but if it is not, then the argument that gallifreyans do not regenerate is
>false. The reason is that Runcible went to school with the doctor. The 
>Doctor has not been to Gallifrey in about 500 years, and Runcible isSTILL 
>ALIVE when he gets back. Runcible has to be about 750 years old, for the
>simple reason that he went to the Academy at around the same time as the
>Doctor. So if Runcible is not a Time Lord, why is he still alive if he 
>cannot regenerate?

Ian Robert Asplin replies:

>>First off, I am not going to argue the entire point of this posting
>>as now you're making sense to me and I think I can agree with the
>>"big picture" of this posting.  Thios section is the only point I
>>can take exception to, since we know that Time Lord bodies last longer
>>than human ones, so Runcible could still be in his first incarnation.
>>Pip and Jane Baker claim in their novels that the Rani is still in
>>her first and she was also in the Doctor' class.  Non-canon again
>>though, so we can't take this as read, but I do recall Runcible being
>>surprised that the Doctor has had a "facelift" this early and blames it
>>on the Doctor's rackety life.

I am glad I am finally making sense to you. 
I don't think this argument washes. First of all you are being inconsistent
when your full argument is taken into account. Remember Andred? You have
argued, as have others, that Andred was only allowed to marry Leela because he
was not a Time Lord and would not live a Time Lord length life. Similarly 
you say that Susan married David Cambell because she was not a real Time Lord
and would not outlive him by centuries. Then you say Runcible is not a Time 
Lord and his being 750 yearsold can be explained by his body lasting longer 
than a human one. But by the same logic, Andred and Susan should live for 
centuries too, living long after Leela and Cambell have died. You cannot 
have it both ways.

Secondly, you have no way of knowing that a Gallifreyan body does last this long. We know that the Doctor's body was physically very old before his first
regeneration. He was around four hundred when this happened, so if his first
body can grow to appear extremely old in four hundred years, how is it
that Runcible looks in his early middle age at 750? You may be right, but
I find this very difficult to accept. The fact that Pip and Jane Baker say 
the Rani was still in her first incarnation I treat with the attitude I reserve
for all their work. Contempt.


>>So yes, I think I can see your point on all this.
>>I think the reason I argues the regeneration stuff was Mawdryn Undead,
>>but since that is a little vague, I'll concede that and say we don't
>>DEFINITELY know.  (I still think it's implied though.)

Fair enough. The reason I argue against the regeneration stuff is that I 
think it is implausible. Let me explain. We know that the Time Lords can give
regeneration to other races. So the idea that they only allow a small elite
of their own population to regenerate I find bizzare. Look at it this way.
You have argued that the guards are not Time Lords. But they are the only 
ones who have guns on Gallifrey. I find it unbelieveable that 90% of the
population would meekly accept what by Time Lord standards must be a 
short life, while those above them 1) live for who knows how long and 2)
exercise total political power. Given that the hierarchy as seen in Deadly
Assassin are doddering fools, I would have expected the population to rise
up and demand regeneration, in ANY form, just like their rulers. They 
rose up and overthrew a corrupt high council in Trial of a Time Lord,
so why would they not rebel and demand regeneration. Can you imagine 
a small group of politicians on earth monopolising long life, and the 
population, the ones who have the guns, meekly accepting this? 

Mark C.