HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kevinlu@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (Kevin Lu)
Subject: Re: Commercial postings from Cair Paravel Co.
Organization: Monash University General Access Unix
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 00:43:31 GMT

Tom Perrett (Tom.Perrett@f388.n634.z3.fidonet.org) wrote:
>  -=> Quoting andrew to All <=-

>  an> From: andrew@teslab.lab.oz.au (Andrew Phillips)
>  an> Organization: Technology Services, Chief Secretary's Dept, Sydney

>  an> In article <9234213.19347@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU>
>  an> schuller@mullauna.cs.mu.OZ.AU (Wayne Schuller) writes: : As i see it,
>  an> there is not possible way of stopping this commercialism on the : net.

> Andrew and Brent (and any one else)

> What the heck does it matter if these folks post?  If you don't like it
> just skip over the post.  Same as complaining about TV programmes, just
> turn the darned thing off.
> Live and let live I say
> Tom

The same reason why BBS Operators do not like people placing Commerical
Ads in the For sale echos. Why you ask? Well they reason that they are not
being paid for keeping their advertising on thier board (i.e hard disk
space). Just like a Tv station, you wanna advertise?, you gotta pay..

--
  +----------------------------------------+-------------------------------+
  |  Kevin Lu                              | Monash University             |
  |  Email: kevinlu@yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au  | Clayton, Victoria             |
  |                                        | Australia                     |
From: Tom.Perrett@f388.n634.z3.fidonet.org (Tom Perrett)
Newsgroups: aus.news
Subject: Commercial postings from Cair Paravel Co.
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 12:33:36

 -=> Quoting andrew to All <=-

 an> From: andrew@teslab.lab.oz.au (Andrew Phillips)
 an> Organization: Technology Services, Chief Secretary's Dept, Sydney

 an> In article <9234213.19347@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU>
 an> schuller@mullauna.cs.mu.OZ.AU (Wayne Schuller) writes: : As i see it,
 an> there is not possible way of stopping this commercialism on the : net.

Andrew and Brent (and any one else)

What the heck does it matter if these folks post?  If you don't like it
just skip over the post.  Same as complaining about TV programmes, just
turn the darned thing off.
Live and let live I say
Tom



... If it wasn't for C, we would be using BASI, PASAL and OBOL!
 * Origin: Axiom BBS: Where the Truth is Self-Evident (3:634/388.0)
Newsgroups: aus.news
From: rossc@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU (Ross Cartlidge)
Subject: Metro news feed falling behind
Organization: Sydney University Computing Service, Sydney, NSW, Australia
Distribution: aus
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 04:50:10 GMT

Metro has gradually been gradually getting further behind
in sending news to its downstream sites. I have increased
the number of simultaneous nntp connections from 4 to 8 in
the hope that this will speed things up - but the real answer
is to change to INN - which will happen soon.

rossc
-- 
________________________________________________________________________
Ross Rodney Cartlidge			    |   rossc@ucc.su.oz.au
Information Services, H08		    |   Phone:     +61 2 6923491
University of Sydney, NSW 2006, Australia   |   FAX:       +61 2 6606557
Newsgroups: aus.news
From: kre@cs.mu.oz.au (Robert Elz)
Subject: Re: Metro news feed falling behind
Organization: Computer Science, University of Melbourne, Australia
Distribution: aus
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 11:06:52 GMT

In <rossc.724308610@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU> rossc@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU
(Ross Cartlidge) writes:

| Metro has gradually been gradually getting further behind
| in sending news to its downstream sites. I have increased
| the number of simultaneous nntp connections from 4 to 8 in
| the hope that this will speed things up -

Gack - and I thought I was being a bit harsh on munnari with a
limit of (about) 20 max nntp transmit processes ... (about because
it depends on the load, it can be much lower).

| but the real answer
| is to change to INN - which will happen soon.

If the only problem is news transmits, this might not help as much
as you might think - INN will lower CPU time & I/O used in receiving
news, but won't make a huge difference to transmitting.

You may find you'll gain more by switching to nntplink for outgoing
feeds and leaving lots of processes all running all the time (for
sites that can actually handle news at the rate it arrives anyway).
Nntplink & INN do make a good combination.

kre
From: dave@eram.esi.COM.AU (Dave Horsfall)
Newsgroups: aus.news
Subject: Re: Metro news feed falling behind
Date: 16 Dec 92 00:35:22 GMT
Distribution: aus
Organization: Pacific ESI, Sydney, AUSTRALIA
X-Disclaimer: "Me, speak for us?"
X-Witty-Saying: "Mobius strip - see other side for instructions"

In article <9234922.24938@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU>,
    kre@cs.mu.oz.au (Robert Elz) writes:

| In <rossc.724308610@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU> rossc@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU
| (Ross Cartlidge) writes:
| 
| | I have increased the number of simultaneous nntp connections from 4 to 8
| 
| Gack - and I thought I was being a bit harsh on munnari with a
| limit of (about) 20 max nntp transmit processes ... (about because
| it depends on the load, it can be much lower).

Hmmm... could this explain the black hole in the vicinity of METRO?
Articles sent ipso->munnari (aus.*) hit the net right away.  Those
destined for metro/extro are never seen for ages (if at all).

-- 
Dave Horsfall (VK2KFU)         VK2KFU @ VK2RWI.NSW.AUS.OC
dave@esi.COM.AU                ...munnari!esi.COM.AU!dave
Newsgroups: aus.news
From: kre@cs.mu.oz.au (Robert Elz)
Subject: Re: Long news delays from uunet to munnari?
Organization: Computer Science, University of Melbourne, Australia
Distribution: aus
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 17:04:02 GMT

In <GNB.92Dec16120323@baby.bby.com.au> gnb@baby.bby.com.au (Gregory N. Bond) writes:

| Is there something wrong here? kre?

Yes, we seem to have a big (big) backlog of news from uunet, though
exactly why this should be so I don't know.   (uunet people have
sent me some mail telling me about this, that is still in my
as yet unread mail - but I know its there...)

Why the articles aren't reaching us via another path I'm not sure,
perhaps other sites notice backlogs building up and just truncate
them, dropping (from their queues) the articles that were waiting.

Why things are slow involves even more guesswork, at the minute I
suspect the general poor state of the US link - much of the time
its quite busy, making the RTT to US sites quite long, offering
news articles involves quite a few RTTs (synchronous) which with
a large RTT imposes a limit on the max rate at which articles can
be transmitted - that's partly why I have several feeds, they can
all be offering articles simultaneously, which should lower the
problem, but apparently not enough - assuming this is what's
happening.

Munnari is (as always) quite busy - but not busy enough recently to
stop receiving news for any noticeable periods.

I am still trying to get a better idea what is really happening, and why.

kre
Xref: sparky aus.news:251 aus.flame:4254
From: O! Marvellous Kate. <cathy@info.anu.edu.au>
Newsgroups: aus.news,aus.flame
Subject: Re: aus.sex
Date: 18 Dec 1992 02:58:32 GMT
Organization: The Library, ANU
Distribution: aus
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.86.106
X-UserAgent: Nuntius v1.1.1d12
X-XXDate: Fri, 18 Dec 92 21:46:42 GMT

Greg. Bond writes:
>Iain> So, how about it?
>
>Not the most original pickup line, but, hey, if it works for you...

With a name like `axolotl'*, one can only assume that no pickup line
works for Iain.  Which is why he is foolishly trying to elicit 
something from someone, anyone, before they actually lay
squinters on him.  Who knows, maybe there's another lady or gent
axolotl out there who may be kind enough to oblige.


Kate.

* Axolotl.  Mexican Walking Fish.  Really ugly bastards. 
I may have told this story before:  a friend of mine once had
an axolotl (salamander creature) which in folly she kept with
other fish.  First it ate them.  Then it ate all the plants in the
tank. Then it ate all the little shells in the tank.  Then it started
on the rocks... and then it died.

The moral of that story is:  if you go into a pet shop looking for
fish, and you notice the mexican walking fish are floating on top
of the water dead, don't touch anything else in there with a 
barge pole.  It's gotta be _real_bad_ before axolotl die - probably
plutonium in the rocks.
Newsgroups: aus.news,aus.flame
From: Singular@csc.canberra.edu.au (Singo)
Subject: Re: aus.sex
Summary: solicitation
Organization: Discontinuous
Distribution: aus
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 00:03:01 GMT

In article <axolotl.724574551@syzygy> axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au (Iain Sinclair) writes:

>So, how about it?

aus.chastity.no-hopers.comp-sci.UTS ?

Singo.
Newsgroups: aus.news
From: gnb@baby.bby.com.au (Gregory N. Bond)
Subject: Re: Long news delays from uunet to munnari?
Organization: Burdett, Buckeridge & Young, Melbourne, Australia
Distribution: aus
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 02:50:12 GMT

(Found an even better example)

In sci.space:

Article 37851:
	Message-ID: <1992Dec7.122250.1@max.u.washington.edu>
	Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1992 20:22:50 GMT
Path: melba.bby.com.au!yarrina.connect.com.au!munnari.oz.au!uunet!
		think.com!rpi!usenet.coe.montana.edu!news.u.washington.edu!
		max.u.washington.edu!games
	arrived: Dec 16 10:30

Followup Article 37624:
	Message-ID: <ewright.723935028@convex.convex.com>
	Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1992 21:03:48 GMT
Path: melba.bby.com.au!yarrina.connect.com.au!munnari.oz.au!
		spool.mu.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!eff!news.oc.com!convex!ewright
	arrived: Dec 11 06:11

Greg, caught in a timewarp!
--
Gregory Bond <gnb@bby.com.au> Burdett, Buckeridge & Young Ltd, Melbourne 
That's *Mister* Chief Pointyhead to you.
Newsgroups: aus.news
From: gnb@baby.bby.com.au (Gregory N. Bond)
Subject: Long news delays from uunet to munnari?
Organization: Burdett, Buckeridge & Young, Melbourne, Australia
Distribution: aus
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 02:03:23 GMT

I have noticed for a month or so that I was getting followups to
articles for a week or more before I was getting the original article.
I thought initially it was just a glitch on our system, but it is
still happening.  I've done some investigation and have discovered the
following:

1) The same thing is happening on a number of other machines with
different paths back to munnari (yarra and mulga); so it seems to be a
problem with munnari or its feeds.

2) The delayed articles are _all_ coming via munnari.oz.au!uunet, most
of the rest arrive via munnari.oz.au!spool.mu.edu.

3) It seems that articles that go munnari.oz.au!(something else)!uunet
get here at normal speeds.

4) People who use trn etc notice HUGE holes in the threads because of
the out-of-order reception.

5) There are _LOTS_ of articles arriving here a week or more late
(this morining I am getting articles dated 7/12/92); _every one_ of
them comes via munnari.oz.au!uunet; to get to uunet they go via a
number of sites (I've seen mcsun, standford.edu,
zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu, ornl, math.fu-berlin.de, auspex-gw)

Is there something wrong here? kre?

Greg.

-----------------

As an example (the first one I could find; there are others with a
much longer delay between followups and root articles):
Newsgroup comp.sys.sun.apps (paths manually folded)

Article 2282:
	Message-ID: <BywKpq.H34@news.cso.uiuc.edu>
	Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1992 18:58:35 GMT
Path: melba.bby.com.au!yarrina.connect.com.au!munnari.oz.au!uunet!
		ornl!utkcs2!darwin.sura.net!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!
		saimiri.primate.wisc.edu!sdd.hp.com!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!
		news.cso.uiuc.edu!uxa.cso.uiuc.edu!car57812
	arrived here: Dec 16 10:50

Followup 2274:
	Message-ID: <1992Dec13.184846.10338@spock.UUCP>
	Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 18:48:46 GMT
Path: melba.bby.com.au!yarrina.connect.com.au!munnari.oz.au!
		spool.mu.edu!yale.edu!yale!spock!jburne
	arrived here: Dec 14 17:10

Followup from an Australian site 2280:
	Message-ID: <1992Dec15.003928.1376@fulcrum.oz.au>
	Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 00:39:28 GMT
Path: melba.bby.com.au!yarrina.connect.com.au!munnari.oz.au!
		sol.deakin.OZ.AU!fulcrum.oz.au!paulr
	arrived here: Dec 16 10:50
--
Gregory Bond <gnb@bby.com.au> Burdett, Buckeridge & Young Ltd, Melbourne 
That's *Mister* Chief Pointyhead to you.
Newsgroups: aus.news,aus.flame
From: axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au (Iain Sinclair)
Subject: aus.sex
Followup-To: aus.flame
Summary: solicitation
Reply-To: axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au
Organization: University of Technology, Sydney
Distribution: aus
Date: 17 Dec 92 06:42:31 GMT

So, how about it?


--
 Iain Sinclair    axolotl@socs.uts.edu.au
Newsgroups: aus.followup
From: chris@suite.sw.oz.au (Chris Maltby)
Subject: Re: Cream skimming considered beneficial
Organization: Softway Pty Ltd
Date: 16 Dec 92 23:45:23 GMT

In <1992Dec16.033611.20285@trl.oz.au> c.oneill@trl.oz.au (Chris O'Neill) writes:

>chris@suite.sw.oz.au (Chris Maltby) writes:
>
>>introduced competition. But if Telecom had been as wonderful as everyone
>>is now saying (;-) there wouldn't have been a need to introduce competition.
>
>The "need" to introduce competition was based on the belief that competition
>was a desirable end in itself, even if that competition did not achieve
>fundamental objectives.

Wot, like improvements in the service? And is that what we have now? No
improvements, but just unnecessary competition? So how come the response
time to phone connection requests has suddenly dipped? I guess just the
threat of competition is enough...
-- 
Chris Maltby - Softway Pty Ltd		Internet: chris@softway.sw.oz.au

PHONE:	+61-2-698-2322	"I'm waiting for X-Windows to become just that;
FAX:	+61-2-699-9174	 Ex-Windows" - A McGrath.
Newsgroups: aus.followup
From: pete@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU (Peter Alexander Merel)
Subject: Re: Directory Assistance
Organization: Sydney University Computing Service, Sydney, NSW, Australia
Distribution: aus
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1992 14:12:09 GMT

ina_pearce@actew.oz.au writes:
>unattributed writes:
>> Using 102 to ring Sydney via Optus rather than 02 via AOTC. Likewise,
>> using 0099 64 xxxxxx to ring New Zealand via Aussat rather than
>> 0011 64 xxxxxx via AOTC.

This is a new one on me - I've been using the optus service since it became
available to me but was completely unaware of the aussat service - anyone know
how the prices compare?

-- 
Internet: pete@extro.su.oz.au             UUCP: {uunet,mcvax}!munnari!extro!pete
                       I am a big pond in a small fish.
Newsgroups: aus.followup
From: len@mel.dit.csiro.au (Len Makin)
Subject: re: Directory Assistance
Organization: CSIRO DIT (Melb.)
Distribution: aus
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 92 22:42:56 GMT


In article <1992Dec10.154833.154@actew.oz.au>, ina_pearce@actew.oz.au writes:
|> yes telecom do have an electronic white pages which is accesible by modem.
|> It costs mega bucks because you not only pay for the software but also each 
|> time a search is performed - but it is updated regularly unlike the white pages 
|> which is only distributed once a year.

Isn't it amazing that French Telecom has for years provided the terminal,
modem and electronic white pages free, but in Australia it's still "new"
,provide your own equipment, and we'll rip you off to use something
that is making it easier to spend money on phone calls?

	Len Makin.
C'est la vie (Australien).

Newsgroups: aus.followup,aus.politics
From: c.oneill@trl.oz.au (Chris O'Neill)
Subject: Re: Cream skimming considered beneficial
Organization: Telecom Australia Research Laboratories
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 06:09:05 GMT

In article <chris.724638060@suite.sw.oz.au> chris@suite.sw.oz.au (Chris Maltby)
writes:
>In <1992Dec17.044303.9134@trl.oz.au> c.oneill@trl.oz.au (Chris O'Neill)
writes:
>
>>The only thing for which Optus competes with Telecom (apart from mobile
phones
>>perhaps) is provision of bandwidth.  I do not agree with your opinion that
>>bandwidth carries some fundamental distinction from electricity in this
>>context.
>
>Eh? When was the last time I bought "badnwidth" from telecom? It may look
>like I'm buying bandwidth to you guys, but to me, I'm buying a service.
>Bandwidth (if I'm even aware that it exists) is just part of the package,
>and the least interesting part too.

Optus must think it's interesting if they like to advertise their optical fibre
laying.

I didn't say it was the only thing you bought from Telecom.  I implied it was
the only substantial thing you bought from Optus.  You buy the billing service
from Optus too but that ought to be a relatively small part of the service. 
Anyway, the point I want to argue is that Optus are providing bandwidth
carrying infrastructure which appears to conflict with what you said about
other types of infrastructure.  I want to clarify this point, what is the
significant difference between bandwidth carrying infrastructure and
electricity carrying infrastructure?

>Optus may not connect your phone (at present) but when they connect your
>calls (be they mobile, long distance or local) they have to provide you
>with a package more attractive than Telecom if they want your business.
>The package will no doubt include cheaper prices, user friendly billing,
>improved handling of complaints, etc etc. If the bandwidth they offer is
>substandard, as it can be in the 0099 NZ service, they'll find it harder
>to get business.
>
>Anyway, we got into this discussion by talking about what bits of Telecom's
>business might be natural monopolies. If I hear you correctly, you're
>saying that provision of bandwidth is a natural monopoly. Surely the 
>present competitive arrangements recognise this. 

No, Optus are putting in their own optical fibres parallel to Telecom's.

>Telecom's monopoly
>business provides bandwidth to Telecom's competitive business and also
>to Optus' competitive business. The price is regulated to prevent the
>two bits of Telecom sitting on the one bit of Optus. Perhaps the two
>bits of Telecom should be split apart to protect competition as well.
>Optus is taking its own steps to protect its competitive business
>by building its own infrastructure...

i.e. the cream skimming that this thread started with.

>In the future, technology may make individual exchange connections more
>feasible. That's why I said that the exchange makes the most sensible
>monopoly boundary. Connecting things to 10 million homes is a lot harder
>tham connecting things to several thousand(?) exchanges.

Duplicating connections to several thousand exchanges is still not cheap.

Chris O'Neill
Telecom Research Labs
From: brendan@otc.otca.oz (Brendan Jones)
Newsgroups: aus.followup
Subject: Re: Cream skimming considered beneficial
Date: 17 Dec 92 22:22:35 GMT

in article <1992Dec17.042656.8287@trl.oz.au>, c.oneill@trl.oz.au (Chris O'Neill) says:
> Bear in mind that there is only one other country in the world (Hong Kong)
> that has more than one mobile phone service covering any particular area.

This is blatantly untrue, I'm afraid.  It's becoming increasingly common for
countries to allow two cellular operators to serve the one area.

The UK has two national providers (Vodafone and Cellnet); most US cellular
markets have two operators (one wireline and one non-wireline); since
deregulation in Japan, Nippon Idou Tsushin (IDO) and Daini Denden Inc (DDI)
offer competetive mobile services with NTT, although I'm not sure whether all
*three* operate in the one market; Korea has recently allowed a second 
national cellular carrier; Thailand has two government owned cellular carriers
TOT and CAT; Sweden has two national operators with Swedish Telecom and Comvik
and a third licence has been awarded to NordicTel; Germany has two services,
operated by Deutsche Bundepost Telecom and D2 Mannesmann Mobilefunk; Finland
has two operators Finland Telecom and Radiolinja; and with the advent of GSM,
most GSM MOU signatory countries have or are offering at least two mobile
licences; India has recently offered separate licenses for competitive
cellular services in each of its major markets.

I could go on, but I think you get the picture.

Perhaps what you should have said is that currently, Australia and Hong Kong
are the only countries that have *three* mobile phone operators covering the
same area (thanks to the arrival of Arena GSM), and even that won't be true
for very much longer.  Hong Kong is soon to get it's fourth operator, and many
other countries are poised to get their third.

It doesn't help Telecom's cause to obfuscate arguments for deregulation by
painting an incorrect picture of what's happening overseas.  Telecom is no
longer the sole respository of information on such topics.

In every one of the markets mentioned above, the advent of competition has
lowered the costs to the customer and increased the uptake of mobile services
(ie made the pie bigger).  We are already seeing this in Australia.  Since
Optus began offering Mobilenet resale in July, *both* Telecom and Optus have
seen an increase in customer growth rates compared to the six months previous.

-- 
Brendan Jones  | ACSnet:  brendan@otc.otca.oz.au               | This space
R&D Contractor |   UUCP:  {uunet,mcvax}!otc.otca.oz.au!brendan | for lease
Network Access |  Phone:  (02)287-3128    Fax:  (02)287-3299   | pending new
|||| OTC ||    |  Snail:  GPO Box 7000 Sydney 2001, AUSTRALIA  | .sig
From: brendan@otc.otca.oz (Brendan Jones)
Newsgroups: aus.followup
Subject: Re: Optus v AOTC. The Facts. (was Re: Cream-Skimming)
Date: 14 Dec 92 22:02:26 GMT
Distribution: aus

in article <1992Dec14.060635.6635@trl.oz.au>, mcf@medici.trl.OZ.AU (Michael Flower) says:
> [re competition benefiting business users only]
> From article <pod.724287081@sour.sw.oz.au>, by pod@sour.sw.oz.au (Paul O'Donnell):
>> Come and look at my the phone bill at my house some time, STD calls account
>> for about 70% of our bill.  Cheaper STD calls are the best thing that could
>> happen to our bill.
> He makes this leap of intuition from the fact that business is BY FAR
> the largest user of STD. They really do spend MUCH more than you do.

So?  I fail to see how this in *any* way reduces the benefits now being
enjoyed by a very large number of residential customers with the reduction in
long distance and international rates.

> and actually orders of magnitude more than all the rest of the subscribers
> put together.

As 97% of households have a telephone connected, and there is, say, one
business for each ten households (a generous estimate), and you say these
businesses pay *orders* of magnitude more than the rest of us (ie at least
100 times, or two orders of magnitude), then by my calculation that means each
business pays, on average, 1000 times the amount of money per year that an
average residential customer pays.  I don't buy it.

Cheers,

-- 
Brendan Jones  | ACSnet:  brendan@otc.otca.oz.au               | This space
R&D Contractor |   UUCP:  {uunet,mcvax}!otc.otca.oz.au!brendan | for lease
Network Access |  Phone:  (02)287-3128    Fax:  (02)287-3299   | pending new
|||| OTC ||    |  Snail:  GPO Box 7000 Sydney 2001, AUSTRALIA  | .sig
Newsgroups: aus.followup