HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: steve@geosys.co.uk (Steve Hawtin)
Newsgroups: comp.org.acm
Subject: Re: PBS show is NOT historically correct!
Date: 14 Apr 92 07:49:20 GMT
Reply-To: steve@geosys.co.uk
Distribution: comp
Organization: Oilfield Systems Ltd.

In article <11397@ksr.com>, jfw@ksr.com (John F. Woods) writes:
> erspert@athena.mit.edu (Ellen R. Spertus) writes:
> >In article <1992Apr10.183002.5425@sctc.com> smith@sctc.com (Rick
Smith) writes:
> >>dab@moxie.moxie.oswego.edu (David Alan Bozak) writes:
> >>>I was appalled that there was NO mention of Atanasoff.  
> >>The show is titled "The Machine that Changed the World." ENIAC
> >>and its progeny changed the world. Atanasoff's machine didn't.
> >I don't agree with this objection.  Konrad Zuse's machine didn't
> >change the world, but he was featured.
> 
> In another newsgroup (comp.arch?  sci.electronics?  I don't remember
offhand),
> someone posted a message from the producer of the show on why they left
> Atanasoff out.  Basically, it's because his machine went nowhere, and to
> give enough background to include his contribution in context would have
> taken too much time.  The producer pointed out that they were careful to
> refer to ENIAC as the "first programmable electronic computer", though
> without the context of Atanasoff's nonprogrammable machine, the distinction
> does become lost.

In the BBC version (called "The Dream Machine") I thought the
title of "first working programmable electronic computer" was
applied to the Manchester University machine, how different was
"The Machine that Changed the World" from "The Dream Machine". 
I must say I thought the running order of the BBC series was a
touch odd it did tend to spend a long time talking about
developments in the US, then go on to discuss earlier
devlopments in the UK in a "separate" section.  Has all the
stuff about Alan Turing's vital contribution via Bletchley Park
and his visit to the US in 1941 (?) been removed?

> As to why Zuse's machine was featured (despite going nowhere) and Atanasoff's
> wasn't, I would guess it was because Zuse's machine was a more interesting
> failure; it provided the bridge between Babbage's "Steam Age" machine (:-) 
> and Mauchly&Eckert's "Electronic Age" machine (being an "Electric Age"
> machine).  Atanasoff's computer was an Electronic Age attempt that went
> nowhere, and would have broken the flow of the presentation.


Steve Hawtin			EMAIL    : steve@geosys.co.uk
Oilfield Systems Ltd.,		BANGNET  : ...!uunet!mcsun!uknet!geosys!steve
Worthy Park House,		PHONE    : +44 962 882448
Abbots Worthy, Winchester,	FAX      : +44 962 885085
Hants. SO21 1AN, UK.
From: rickert@mp.cs.niu.edu (Neil Rickert)
Subject: Re: PBS show is NOT historically correct!
Organization: Northern Illinois University
Distribution: comp
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 17:57:10 GMT

In article <1992Apr16.152028.20665@kodak.kodak.com> vec@sunshine.Kodak.COM (Vance Cochrane) writes:
>In article <1992Apr16.135924.15805@mp.cs.niu.edu>, rickert@mp.cs.niu.edu (Neil Rickert) writes:
>
>> Yes, I was annoyed that von Neumann's contributions were ignored.  But then
>>what can you expect from a program that says a transistor is 100 times
>>ligher than a vacuum tube -- that would give it negative weight by my
>>calculations.
>>
>Sorry, but (+)/(+) is not < 0 !

 Sorry, but "lighter" implies a subtraction.
		  ^^
 Yes, I know many people get this wrong.  But a computer is a precise
tool, and programs about computers ought to be precise in their use of
numbers.
From: smith@sctc.com (Rick Smith)
Newsgroups: comp.org.acm
Subject: Who's On First and Historical Correctness
Date: 15 Apr 92 15:24:45 GMT
Article-I.D.: sctc.1992Apr15.152445.5780
Distribution: comp
Organization: SCTC

I think it should be clear by now that regardless of who did what
"first" in computers, there were lots of creative people chasing
the same goals at roughly the same time. The technologies had
matured enough to make computers possible, so people tried to
build computers. I think there's more useful history in looking
at _what_ was built and succeeded than _who_ built something first.

The second best example of an unattributable "first" in computers
is probably ferrite core memory: there are no less than 3 valid
claimants for having done it "first" Jay Forrester, An Wang, and
J.A. Rajchmann. They were all working independently, and I believe
at least two separate patents were issued. 

About the only "first" historians seem to agree on is that the
Manchester Mark I ran the "first stored program" of any computer.
Some people have grumbled that Manchester's "first" wasn't a
particularly useful program (testing primes, or something, as I
recall) and the machine wasn't elaborate enough at that point to do
anything very big. Personally, I think they managed to implement
the first RISC machine :->

Rick.
smith@sctc.com        arden hills, minnesota
From: vparisi@falcon.aamrl.wpafb.af.mil
Newsgroups: comp.org.acm
Subject: help, I need a contact inCleveland ACM area
Date: 14 Apr 92 16:10:12 EST
Organization: USAF AL/CFH, WPAFB, Dayton, OH

I am trying to reach a ACM contact in Cleveland Ohio area.  Several weeks ago I
spoke to a lady from there who called me to inquire about someone from our
orgainzation speaking at theri April meeting.  Unfortunately, I have misplaced
her number.  If that person reads this or someone knows a contact in Cleveland
ACM please send me an email at vparisi@falcon.aamrl.wpafb.af.mil.  Thanks

Vince-- 

"The opinions and views expressed here are strictly my own and do not 
necessarily reflect the official position of either the U.S. Air Force 
or its contractors."
From: vec@sunshine.Kodak.COM (Vance Cochrane)
Newsgroups: comp.org.acm
Subject: Re: PBS show is NOT historically correct!
Date: 16 Apr 92 19:09:12 GMT
Article-I.D.: kodak.1992Apr16.190912.25532
Distribution: comp
Organization: Eastman Kodak Co., Rochester, NY

In article <1992Apr16.175710.801@mp.cs.niu.edu>, rickert@mp.cs.niu.edu (Neil Rickert) writes:
>In article <1992Apr16.152028.20665@kodak.kodak.com> vec@sunshine.Kodak.COM (Vance Cochrane) writes:
>>In article <1992Apr16.135924.15805@mp.cs.niu.edu>, rickert@mp.cs.niu.edu (Neil Rickert) writes:
>>
>>> Yes, I was annoyed that von Neumann's contributions were ignored.  But then
>>>what can you expect from a program that says a transistor is 100 times
>>>ligher than a vacuum tube -- that would give it negative weight by my
>>>calculations.
>>>
>>Sorry, but (+)/(+) is not < 0 !
>
> Sorry, but "lighter" implies a subtraction.
>		  ^^
> Yes, I know many people get this wrong.  But a computer is a precise
>tool, and programs about computers ought to be precise in their use of
>numbers.
>

Sorry but "100 times lighter" implies 1/100 which is division. 
If you are interested in precision, please indicate how you translate 100 times
lighter into a subtractive operation. 
As for your computer, if you divide 1 by 100 and get a value < 0,  I would have
it looked at.
-- 
Vance Cochrane			Email: vec@Kodak.COM
Research Laboratories		Voice: (716) 722-3709
Eastman Kodak Company		Fax:   (716) 722-0160
Rochester, NY 14650-1816
USA
From: varouhak@ICARUS.MONTCLAIR.EDU (Thomas Varouhakis)
Newsgroups: comp.org.acm
Subject: Re: ACM Turing Award Lectures
Date: 10 Apr 92 18:08:55 GMT
              <ACM-L@OHSTVMA.BITNET>
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

> Recently, I read the book _ACM Turing Award Lectures: The first twenty years_.
> I am interested in knowing where I can find the lectures given after the
> first twenty years, i.e. after 1985.
>
> Philip Fong
> wlfong@logos.waterloo.edu
>


I doubt there's another book...
which one was the book you read though?

Thomas.
Xref: sparky comp.org.acm:461 alt.folklore.computers:6555
From: smith@sctc.com (Rick Smith)
Newsgroups: comp.org.acm,alt.folklore.computers
Subject: Re: Who's On First and Historical Correctness
Date: 16 Apr 92 21:34:58 GMT
Article-I.D.: sctc.1992Apr16.213458.4086
Organization: SCTC

jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones) writes:

>"What was the first programmable computer?" is ill specified question.

>[story of ancient octal dumps from ILLIAC dating from the late '40s]

>To make such dumps, there must have been a considerable amount of working
>hardware -- not an entire working computer, but enough to step throug
>memory and convert binary to octal for printing.  My suspicion is that
>they used the CPU's data paths to do this, with a very simplified control
>unit that turned what they had into a memory tester, but I didn't have
>time to find out if this was so.

>I also got the impression that they were running programs with just add,
>jump, load and store instructions for a considerable time ...

Thank you for poking a hole in one of the few 'firsts' I thought
still held up!

Things get _really_ uncertain when you consider that the octal dumper
(memory tester?) probably operated via a primitive control store;
quite likely if it was influenced by the Whirlwind design. Now, if you
have a program in control storage, how's that different from a RISC
program in ROM??

Who's on First, anyway?

Rick.
smith@sctc.com          arden hills, minnesota
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
From: jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones,201H MLH,3193350740,3193382879)
Newsgroups: comp.org.acm
Subject: Re: PBS show is NOT historically correct!
Date: 12 Apr 92 21:08:27 GMT
Distribution: comp

From article <DAB.92Apr10121110@moxie.moxie.oswego.edu>, by dab@moxie.moxie.oswego.edu (David Alan Bozak):
> 
> I've read the positive reviews of the "Machine that changed the world"
> and I agree, almost.
> 
> I was appalled that there was NO mention of Atanasoff.  

Actually, there were a number of bugs in the show, among them:

1) Babbage's ideas didn't go nowhere.  He may have never finished a
   production model of his difference engine, but a publisher (of
   mathematical tables?) in Sweden built one that was used in production.
   This machine was copied by the British Government and exhibited in the
   Crystal Palace Exhibition.  The original ended up in Albany, according
   to Babbage.

   Furthermore, by 1910, printing difference engines were being used to
   produce mathematical tables for commercial publication.  I've seen
   a "Table of the Higher Mathematical Functions" from around that year
   that began with a lengthly preface on how they'd used a difference
   engine to compute their table.  The preface included a photo of the
   engine, a two crank model made in Germany.  The preface didn't cite
   Babbage!

   I've also seen a table of mathematical functions published in the late
   1930's that had a beautiful frontspiece photo titled "Babbage's
   Analytical Engine".  The dedication in the book was to Babbage's dream
   of automatic computation, in the hope that it will one day come true.
   The photo credit said that the machine was designed by Charles Babbage
   and built by his son.

2) The Harvard Mark family of machines weren't even mentioned.  These relay
   machines from World War II may not have been electronic, but many of the
   first generation of programmers were trained there, including the late
   Grace Hopper.

Despite these bugs, I still think the first episode was quite good, and I
look forward to watching the others!
						Doug Jones
						jones@cs.uiowa.edu
From: smith@sctc.com (Rick Smith)
Newsgroups: comp.org.acm
Subject: Re: PBS show is NOT historically correct!
Date: 10 Apr 92 18:30:02 GMT
Article-I.D.: sctc.1992Apr10.183002.5425
Distribution: comp
Organization: SCTC

dab@moxie.moxie.oswego.edu (David Alan Bozak) writes:

>I was appalled that there was NO mention of Atanasoff.  

The show is titled "The Machine that Changed the World." ENIAC
and its progeny changed the world. Atanasoff's machine didn't.

It doesn't pay to confuse law and politics with history. All the
lawsuit did was invalidate a patent. It didn't change history. They
didn't have to prove that ENIAC's existence depended on Atanasoff's
work; they just had to show that the patent claimed some of his work.

Atanasoff, like several other people, rigged up some vacuum tubes to
do arithmetic.  He didn't make it into a machine that solved real
problems, he didn't compute and publish mathematical tables with it,
he didn't give lectures to others on how to build them, and he didn't
found one of the first commercial companies in a new industry. Nor
was he a cofounder of the ACM.

If Mauchly hadn't visited him, Atanasoff would be even more obscure
than he is now.

>Since Unisys was a sponsor of the show, I suppose I shouldn't have
>been surprised, since they lost a lawsuit over his role in the history
>of computers.  Maybe disappointed is a better word to describe how I
>feel about sponsor influence over content.

I'm not, nor have I ever been, an employee of Unisys, Sperry, Remington
Rand, Engineering Research Associates, or Eckert-Mauchly Computer
Corporation. I'm merely a student of computer history.

Rick Smith, late of the Babbage Institute, arden hills, minnesota
Newsgroups: comp.org.acm
From: rickert@mp.cs.niu.edu (Neil Rickert)
Subject: Re: PBS show is NOT historically correct!
Organization: Northern Illinois University
Distribution: comp
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 13:59:24 GMT

In article <1992Apr16.123654.4010@rucs.faculty.cs.runet.edu> dana@rucs.faculty.cs.runet.edu (Dana Eckart) writes:
>Everyone appears to be focused on the absence of the ABC in the series,
>yet no one (as far as I can tell) seems concerned with the MINIMAL mention
>of John von Neumann in the first show (I think he got a photo and a sentence 
>or two mention -- along the lines that he came on board to the ENIAC project 
>just as Eckert and Mauchley were leaving).

 Yes, I was annoyed that von Neumann's contributions were ignored.  But then
what can you expect from a program that says a transistor is 100 times
ligher than a vacuum tube -- that would give it negative weight by my
calculations.

Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU
Original_To:  @ALL.LST
Newsgroups: comp.org.acm
Date:         Thu, 16 Apr 1992 17:01:00 CDT
              <ACM-L@OHSTVMA.BITNET>
From:         S_NATALE@TWU.BITNET
Subject:      What is this about anyway?

Dear friends --

I am currently engaged in a project here at Texas Woman's University that
involves creating a database of discussion lists and a detailed description of
each.

My goal is to allow our students and faculty access to this database here in
the library for their convenience.  Eventually, I'd like to offer it over the
academic networks, as well.

Please take a few minutes to tell me your impressions of what is discussed and
"hashed" out here.  Hopefully, many of you will respond so that I can get a
well-rounded picture of the environment on this list.

Please respond to me personally at my BITNET or Internet addresses, not to the
list itself.

I appreciate everyone's time on this.

Thank you,
Joe Natale

******************************************************************************
God have mercy on the man who doubts what he's sure of.
                                         -- Bruce Springsteen
******************************************************************************
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|Joe Natale                            |                                     |
|Reference Librarian                   | BITNET:                             |
|Mary Evelyn Blagg-Huey Library        |    s_natale@twu                     |
|Texas Woman's Universiy               |    hdbr1001@smuvm1                  |
|P. O. Box 23715                       |                                     |
|Denton, Texas  76204-1715             | INTERNET:                           |
|(817) 898-3709                        |    s_natale@twu.the.net             |
|                                      |   hdbr1001@vm.cis.smu.edu           |
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: erspert@athena.mit.edu (Ellen R. Spertus)
Newsgroups: comp.org.acm
Subject: Re: PBS show is NOT historically correct!
Date: 11 Apr 92 18:42:14 GMT
Distribution: comp
Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology

In article <1992Apr10.183002.5425@sctc.com> smith@sctc.com (Rick Smith) writes:
>dab@moxie.moxie.oswego.edu (David Alan Bozak) writes:
>
>>I was appalled that there was NO mention of Atanasoff.  
>
>The show is titled "The Machine that Changed the World." ENIAC
>and its progeny changed the world. Atanasoff's machine didn't.

I don't agree with this objection.  Konrad Zuse's machine didn't
change the world, but he was featured.

Incidentally, people interested in computer history should see Robert
Slater's _Portraits in Silicon_.  It has chapters on Babbage, Turing,
von Neumann, Shannon, Zuse, Atanasoff, Mauchly & Eckert, Aiken, etc.,
as well as the next generations, including Shockley, Cray, and Ritchie
& Thompson.

					Ellen Spertus
Newsgroups: comp.org.acm,alt.folklore.computers
From: wayne@gbrmpa.gov.au (Wayne Amisano)
Subject: Re: Who's On First and Historical Correctness
Organization: Great Barrier Reef Marine Park Authority
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1992 00:36:46 GMT

smith@sctc.com (Rick Smith) writes:

>jones@pyrite.cs.uiowa.edu (Douglas W. Jones) writes:

>>"What was the first programmable computer?" is ill specified question.

>>[story of ancient octal dumps from ILLIAC dating from the late '40s]

>>To make such dumps, there must have been a considerable amount of working
>>hardware -- not an entire working computer, but enough to step throug
>>memory and convert binary to octal for printing.  My suspicion is that
>>they used the CPU's data paths to do this, with a very simplified control
>>unit that turned what they had into a memory tester, but I didn't have
>>time to find out if this was so.

>>I also got the impression that they were running programs with just add,
>>jump, load and store instructions for a considerable time ...

>Thank you for poking a hole in one of the few 'firsts' I thought
>still held up!

>Things get _really_ uncertain when you consider that the octal dumper
>(memory tester?) probably operated via a primitive control store;
>quite likely if it was influenced by the Whirlwind design. Now, if you
>have a program in control storage, how's that different from a RISC
>program in ROM??

>Who's on First, anyway?

Whats on second?? ..!!

>Rick.
>smith@sctc.com          arden hills, minnesota

cul 73's de wayne
-- 
   _-_|\    Wayne Amisano          E-Mail: wayne@gbrmpa.gov.au
  /     \   Programmer             Phone:  +61 77 81 8861
  \_.-._/   Great Barrier Reef     Fax:    +61 77 72 6093
       v    Marine Park Authority  Mail:   GPO Box 1379, Townsville QLD 4810
From: ed@titipu.meta.com (Edward Reid)
Newsgroups: comp.org.acm
Subject: Re: ACM Turing Award Lectures
Date: 12 Apr 92 13:57:40 GMT
Article-I.D.: titipu.01010064.0regk7
Reply-To: ed@titipu.meta.com (Edward Reid)
Organization: Metalogic
X-Mailer: uAccess - Macintosh Release: 1.9b1

In article <1992Apr10.143035.28328@watdragon.waterloo.edu> (comp.org.acm), wlfong@logos.waterloo.edu (Philip W. L. Fong) writes:
> Recently, I read the book _ACM Turing Award Lectures: The first twenty years_.
> I am interested in knowing where I can find the lectures given after the
> first twenty years, i.e. after 1985.

The lectures are published each year in CACM.  (My old, dogeared copy of
Dijkstra's _The Humble Programmer_ was xeroxed from CACM.)  I don't think it's
consistent which issue they appear in.  Thumb through CACM in a library.

Edward Reid  (8-}>
  eel:   ed@titipu.meta.com  or  nosc.mil!titipu.meta.com!ed
  snail: PO Box 378/Greensboro FL 32330
Newsgroups: comp.org.acm
From: peterd@pjd.dev.cdx.mot.com (Peter Desnoyers)
Subject: Re: PBS show is NOT historically correct!
Organization: Motorola Codex, Canton, Massachusetts
Distribution: comp
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 18:29:27 GMT

steve@geosys.co.uk (Steve Hawtin) writes:
>I must say I thought the running order of the BBC series was a
>touch odd it did tend to spend a long time talking about
>developments in the US, then go on to discuss earlier
>devlopments in the UK in a "separate" section.  Has all the
>stuff about Alan Turing's vital contribution via Bletchley Park
>and his visit to the US in 1941 (?) been removed?

Nope - it was still there when I saw it last Monday on WGBH. They might
have put it after chronologically later work because no one found out
about it until 1970 or so due to "national security reasons".

				Peter Desnoyers
--
From: jfw@ksr.com (John F. Woods)
Newsgroups: comp.org.acm
Subject: Re: PBS show is NOT historically correct!
Date: 15 Apr 92 11:22:48 EDT
Distribution: comp

steve@geosys.co.uk (Steve Hawtin) writes:
>In the BBC version (called "The Dream Machine") I thought the
>title of "first working programmable electronic computer" was
>applied to the Manchester University machine, how different was
>"The Machine that Changed the World" from "The Dream Machine". 

As I posted in another message, I blew it:  ENIAC was "the first working
electronic computer", rather than "the first programmable..."; the Manchester
machine was given the "first programmable" title by the show.

>I must say I thought the running order of the BBC series was a
>touch odd it did tend to spend a long time talking about
>developments in the US, then go on to discuss earlier
>devlopments in the UK in a "separate" section.  Has all the
>stuff about Alan Turing's vital contribution via Bletchley Park
>and his visit to the US in 1941 (?) been removed?

They certainly discussed Turing.  I don't remember the visit to the US, but
they probably did show it and I just forgot.
Newsgroups: comp.org.acm
From: ralph@bert.eecs.uic.edu (Ralph Orlick)
Subject: SIGGRAPH '92 Advance Program
Keywords: SIGGRAPH
Organization: University of Illinois at Chicago
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 22:47:27 GMT


                 THE 19TH ANNUAL INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE ON 
                 COMPUTER GRAPHICS AND INTERACTIVE TECHNIQUES

                               SIGGRAPH '92

                         CHICAGO, IL   July 26-31, 1992

                           sponsored by ACM SIGGRAPH


The advance program for the conference is available on line from
siggraph.org [128.248.245.250] via ftp, in postscript and plain
ASCII text. The postscript files are in   

      info/s92/advanceprogram/postscript

The plain ASCII text files are in

      info/s92/advanceprogram/text

The files are also available via e-mail by sending a request to:

        archive-server@siggraph.org

include a line either in the subject of the body of the message
of the form:
        send advanceprogram index          ;this would send an Index file

        send program-txt courses           ;this would send the text
                                            version of the courses description

        send program-ps registration       ;would send the postscript
                                            version of the registration info

 To receive a copy of the Advance Program, contact:

        SIGGRAPH '92 Conference Management
        (312) 321-6830
        info92@siggraph.org



Ralph Orlick
SIGGRAPH '92 Computer Systems Chair
ralph@siggraph.org

Newsgroups: comp.org.acm