HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: coco@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (felix.lugo)
Subject: Re: Concerns about NeXT Prices are warranted
Organization: AT&T
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 18:18:12 GMT

In article <1e8bebINNk0t@emory.mathcs.emory.edu> kim@unix.cc.emory.edu writes:
|
| I wonder if NeXT will have a response.
| 
| --------------------------------------------------
| | Kim Wallen                        Internet: kim@unix.cc.emory.edu 
| | Department of psychology          Bitnet: kim@emoryu1             
| | Emory University                                                  
| | Atlanta, GA 30322                                                 
| |                                                                   
| | Phone: (404) 727-4125             FAX: (404) 727-0372             
|  -----------------------------------------
| 

	Since it's not a direct ATTACK at Steve Jobs, their response will
probably be to stick their heads further into the ground and ignore the whole
thing!  I mean, isn't this what they've been doing for a long time?  You've
got to accept the fact that the new Sun hardware is very attractive and WILL
make potential NeXT customers think twice about which platform to support.
NeXTSTEP is great, but it's value is transitory.  Hardware investment is
THE primary concern involved when purchasing for a big project (and I'm not
talking about a one time purchase by an individual).  Software for devel.
purposes comes after that.

--Felix

Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: stelios@chios.dorm.Virginia.EDU (Stelios Makrinos)
Subject: Steven P. Jobs . . . Dead???
Organization: University of Virginia
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 22:06:22 GMT

NO, he's not dead, but he could have been.

I was in the library the other day and I saw a book entitled Steve  
Jobs: The Journey is the Reward, by Jeffrey S. Young.  The book is  
copyrighted in 1988 and therefore only has about 20 pages on NeXT.   
However in that section it writes "Then he (Steve Jobs) decided that  
he wanted to conquer a new dimension --space--and asked NASA if he  
could ride the Space Shuttle.  He found that being a 'global  
visionary' didn't cut the mustard with the government.  He was turned  
down.  Christa McAuliffe, an elementary schoolteacher, was selected  
instead."

I guess that Steve must feel pretty luck that he wasn't aloud to be  
on that shuttle.  If he had been, we wouldn't have NeXT.

Anyway, I found this very interesting so I decided to post it.

Stelios Makrinos
NeXT CC University of Virginia

-- NewsGrazer, a NeXTstep(tm) news reader, posting --
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`
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: dillon@overload.Berkeley.CA.US (Matthew Dillon)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re:   DEC's alpha is "way fast" according to WSJournal
Distribution: world
Date: 22 Nov 92 09:33:15 PST
Organization: Not an Organization

In article <1992Nov21.201213.13248@netcom.com> abell@netcom.com (Steven T. Abell) writes:
>axel@tumbolia.sta.sub.org writes:
>>So far, everybody in this group obviously is convinced, that the
>>future lies in 64 bit-architectures.
>
>I think you haven't been reading very carefully. Several posters, including
>myself, have voiced the opinion that these machines are probably wasted on
>most of us.
>
>As regards the microprocessor wars, I'm actually a little sick of these
>bigger and bigger CPUs. I've worked on several embedded systems, where these
>enormous critters are simply a curse. What the world really needs is a good
>8-bit CPU with a no-nonsense programming model, lightning-fast interrupt
>response, and hardware that doesn't derive from the design desperation of
>the late '70s.
>
>Steve abell@netcom.com

    Yah, definite agreement there for embedded apps.  Why put in two
    eprom's when you can just stick with one?  All an embedded system needs
    is some good, smart I/O and a reasonably fast cpu, it's amazing what
    you can do with a few timers, input capture, and output compare
    registers.

					    -Matt

--

    Matthew Dillon		dillon@Overload.Berkeley.CA.US
    1005 Apollo Way		uunet.uu.net!overload!dillon
    Incline Village, NV. 89451	ham: KC6LVW (no mail drop)
    USA 			Sandel-Avery Engineering (702)831-8000

Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: bwp@engin.umich.edu (Bruce Wayne Patton)
Subject: Re: Really stupid Question: NS486 (WHEN??) - Q2 '92
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 92 13:02:54 EST
Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor

In article <92322.18284434II5MT@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU> John Goggan <34II5MT@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU> writes:
>When I asked the Michigan NeXT Rep. (Kent Foster) if the January date was
>still valid, he said "no" and that it would most likely be around April,
>plus or minus (which do _you_ think?!?) a month...
>
> - John Goggan (34ii5mt@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu)

   There also was supposed to be a flyer mailed out with prices of Next machines and software bundles (promised 
   back in October) to UM students, but it still has not happened. This is one of many things that is making me wait 
   until (a) Next get its act together and reduces prices and increases power or (b) buy the new SparcClassic.  
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: jake@skatter.usask.ca
Subject: Re: DEC's alpha is "way fast" according to WSJournal
Organization: University of Saskatchewan
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 00:55:10 GMT

From article <cf2Gogy00iUz83GvIy@andrew.cmu.edu>, by Charles William Swiger <cs4w+@andrew.cmu.edu>:
> Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 16-Nov-92 Re: DEC's alpha
> is "way fas.. by Lars Peter Fischer@iesd. 

(stuff tossed)

> underway.  Yes, there are people that do max out the 32-bit limit, and
> they are looking for the newest technology.  But they are in the
> minority of the people who use workstations (perhaps the most important
> minority in the field of computers, but still)....
> 
> -Chuck
> 
> 
The way it seems to work, is you build a machine, and somebody brings it to
its knees. Over and over again.

jake

--
Jason C. Breckenridge 				jake@skatter.usask.ca

Sometimes the world is a mighty fine place to be dead to.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: wilcoxt@cuug.ab.ca (Terrance Wilcox 260-8100)
Subject: Re: Byte Magazine pans the NeXTstation
Organization: Calgary UNIX Users' Group
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1992 16:48:42 GMT

In article <175@bytepb.UUCP> ben@bytepb.UUCP (Ben Smith @ BYTE) writes:
>
>And face it, even though the newer model is faster than the older
>one, this is true for everyone else's workstation. Try putting
>the NeXTstation up against an R4000 Indigo or a DEC Alpha
>workstation.

Try paying for an Indigo or a DEC Alpha. At least I can afford a NeXT.
>
>
>As you must realize, it is impossible to do a "scientific" comparison
>of systems that have not only different CPUs, but also different OSs
>and user interfaces. The only way to evaluate this spectrum is call
>them as we see them, and that is what we did. There is as much
>personal opinion in this kind of comparison as there is any
>statistics; perhaps even more.

I wish you had stated this in the article itself. It's irresponsible to 
publish your opinion as benchmarks. This reinforces the belief that
benchmarks are meaningless.

Terry Wilcox


Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: thomsen@spf.trw.com (Mark Thomsen)
Subject: Re: 64-bit CPUs (was DEC's alpha is "way fast")
Organization: TRW Inc., Redondo Beach, CA
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 22:07:56 GMT

Minor note to add. A machine from the past, the Lilith (developed by a team for  
Niklaus Wirth at ETH Zurich in the late 70's - Lilith was to Modula-2 as  
Symbolics was to Lisp), transfered 64 bits from memory into the instruction  
memory (cache). The bandwidth increase allowed the Lilith to a) paint the  
screen at 30 mega-pixel per second rates, b) achieve one full Vax MIPS  
performance using 1977 circuitry in a desktop cube (roughly) the size of a NeXT  
cube, and c) out-perform all workstations and personal computers up through  
1985. There were other architectural improvements that contributed to the  
performance, but that bandwidth was a joy.

I am glad to see some modern CPUs catching up. :)

Does NeXT easily take advantage of 64-bit (or wider) data paths and data types?

Mark R. Thomsen
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: sailer@hpuerca.atl.hp.com (Lee Sailer)
Subject: Re: Really stupid Question: NS486 (WHEN??)
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 22:59:17 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard NARC Atlanta
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1.3 PL5

Robert Stephen Rodgers (rsrodger@next10csc.wam.umd.edu) wrote:
: 
: 
: 	Really dumb question.
: 
: 	I hate to ask, but I understand that the Jan. '93
: 	date given in Byte Magazine some two months back is now considered
: 	invalid.
: 
: 	I've heard rumors that it may be _June_ before NS486 is out,
: 	and I've hear others that it will be out on New Years (this
: 	particular rumor involved a NY party celebrating the release..)..
: 

  What's the hold up?  is it a marketing ploy, or is there some quality
  controll problem, or what?

  lee

Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: byer@adobe.com (Scott Byer)
Subject: Re: 64-bit CPUs (was DEC's alpha is "way fast")
Reply-To: byer@adobe.com (Scott Byer)
Organization: Adobe Systems Incorporated
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 17:35:22 GMT

Steven T. Abell writes

> On a 32-bit CISC, the realignment method you're talking about moves
> 2 bytes in three instructions, which is a net loss to byte movement;
> a 64-bit CISC moves 4 bytes in 3 instructions, a net gain, but not
> by all that much.  On a RISC, this method requires 5 instructions
> per transfer, with 2 bytes moved through 32 bits, 4 bytes through
> 64, as opposed to 4 instructions per byte for byte movement.

Small point - 64 bits is 8 bytes.  And, remember, you have to count
cycles, not instructions, as instruction counts can't be compared
between a CISC machine (which often have multi-cycle instructions)
and a RISC machine.

> I'm willing to soften my stance on struct ops, but the normal
> inheritance architecture leaves holes in aligned structs that have
> to be masked out, which will palpably decrease throughput in struct
> compares.

"Holes" have undefined contents, and can be moved as part of a
large chunk.  A structure containing a char and an int can still
be moved in one 64-bit chunk despite the alignment hole in the
middle.

--
Scott Byer                             NeXTMail: byer@mv.us.adobe.com
Adobe Systems Incorporated               These are *my* opinions, and  
1585 Charleston Road, P.O. Box 7900        do not necessarily reflect
Mountain View, CA 94039-7900             the opinions of my employer.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: royce@splunge.uucp (Royce Howland)
Subject: Re: Concerns about NeXT Prices are warranted
Organization: Ashley, Howland & Wood
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1992 01:39:20 GMT

coco@cbnewsl.cb.att.com (felix.lugo) writes:

>In article <1e8bebINNk0t@emory.mathcs.emory.edu> kim@unix.cc.emory.edu writes:
>|
>| I wonder if NeXT will have a response.
>| 
>| --------------------------------------------------
>| | Kim Wallen                        Internet: kim@unix.cc.emory.edu 
>| | Department of psychology          Bitnet: kim@emoryu1             
>| | Emory University                                                  
>| | Atlanta, GA 30322                                                 
>| |                                                                   
>| | Phone: (404) 727-4125             FAX: (404) 727-0372             
>|  -----------------------------------------
>| 

>	Since it's not a direct ATTACK at Steve Jobs, their response will
>probably be to stick their heads further into the ground and ignore the whole
>thing!  I mean, isn't this what they've been doing for a long time?  You've
>got to accept the fact that the new Sun hardware is very attractive and WILL
>make potential NeXT customers think twice about which platform to support.
>NeXTSTEP is great, but it's value is transitory.  Hardware investment is
>THE primary concern involved when purchasing for a big project (and I'm not
>talking about a one time purchase by an individual).  Software for devel.
>purposes comes after that.

Hmm, those latter two comments may apply for you, Felix, but they don't
apply where I come from, nor where many others come from either.  It's
been pretty widely acknowledged for some time that initial hardware
acquisition is not the major cost of any project of any size.  Software
maintenance is the* single biggest cost, and by a large margin; it just
happens to be amortized over a (hopefully) long period of time, perhaps
longer even than the original hardware.

Anything that can be done to minimize software maintenance costs even a
few percentage points is worth bazillions of bucks of hardware expenditure.
Well, maybe not quite, but you get the point.  :~)  People who continue to
be driven by up-front costs are going to get nailed, unless they luck out
and find something that is the "cheapest" and also the best in all other
respects (a rare event, I suspect).
-- 
Royce Howland, DKW Systems Corp.   |  "And since OS/2 2.0 is a 32-bit
       Everything is IMHO          |   operating system, programs are easier
royce@splunge.uucp  (NeXTMail OK)  |   to write and run faster, too."
or kakwa!atlantis!splunge!royce    |  ad for OS/2 2.0
From: ricardo@lush (Ricardo Parada)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: NeXTSTEP 486 Keyboard Question
Date: 19 Nov 92 23:39:20 GMT
Organization: Pencom Software

I'm just curious.  Does anybody know how NS 486 handle the PC keyboard.   
For instance, in the NeXT there is a Control, Alternate and Command.  On  
the PC there is a Control and Alt key.  So what does NS 486 use for  
Command?

Thanks

--
+ Ricardo J. Parada
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
From: vhs@rhein-main.de (Volker Herminghaus-Shirai)
Subject: Re: Byte Magazine pans the NeXTstation
Reply-To: vhs@rhein-main.de
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 09:13:24 GMT

In article <179@bytepb.UUCP> ben@bytepb.UUCP (Ben Smith @ BYTE) writes:
> eht@cmu.edu (Eric Thayer) writes:
> 
> >In article <175@bytepb.UUCP> ben@bytepb.UUCP (Ben Smith @ BYTE) writes:
> >> For heterogenous UNIX
> >> computing I prefer something that uses X as a matter of course
> >> and which relies more on standards (such as RFC822 for mail). 
> 
> >Yes, you do not get X out of the box as in other Unix workstations.    
However,  
> >I'm confused about the remark about RFC822.  I routinely send mail to and  
get
> >mail from many users on the Internet.  Yes, NeXT attachments and RTF  
messages  
> >get encoded into an unreadable mess if you send it to a non-NeXT machine,  
but  
> >if you stay away from using the NeXT enhancements for non-NeXT mailboxes,  
> >things have worked flawlessly for me since the 0.8 days.
> 
> My error here. The problem that I was refering to is the one you
> identified. Yes, the headers and body are according to RFC 822.
> The problem is one of the text format. Even the Usenet postings
> from NeXT users tend to betray the fact that the writers are not
> using emacs or vi as their editor: the lines run on for a whole
> paragraph.

That's just plain usual for the most window-system based mail agents.
Try mailtool on a Sun, for instance. It's also much better than fixing
the line length because it doesn't force you to use a fixed window width.
Users of ASCII terminals suffer only if their mailreader is totally
brain-dead and cannot wrap lines that are too long.

> Putting that aside, yes, I can send and receive E-mail
> and Usenet news with NeXT users. But as some of you have stated,
> you prefer to receive NeXTmail because it is the default data
> format.

Only if set so in Mail's preferences.

> Though richer, it is not MIME. Will it move over to MIME
> when that has been well defined? Probably not.

What do you base this assertion on? Have you talked with NeXT about it?
What exactly did they tell you?

> You will just have install yet another user agent like everyone else on
> the net.

Even if this turns out to be true - so what? (Besides, the NeXT's Services
concept can make handling of other mail formats transparent, which is not
possible on other platforms.)

--
Volker Herminghaus-Shirai (vhs@rhein-main.de)

Computer industry: Industry in which the number of units sold of any
given product is inversely proportional to its technical excellence.
See also: MS-DOS, Windows, IBM-PC, X, QWERTY,
          80x86, TrueType, Survival of the shittest.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: humor(less) other newsgroup
From: eburk@bugs.sfsu.edu (Eli Burk)
Date: 18 Nov 92 12:50:15 PST
Reply-To: eburk@bugs.sfsu.edu (Eli Burk)
Keywords: mac humor


This is a little bit out there for being in this newsgroup - but
I felt that the humor necessiated a post.

And I'll be notified if most didn't feel it is funny. :-)

Article 2633 (140 more) in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy:
 . .         ^^^^
Marking subject "Macintosh bigots" as read.
 . .
Article 2634 (37 more) in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy:
 . .
Marking subject "How MS could annoy Apple" as read.
 . .
Article 2643 (28 more) in comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy:
 . .         ^^^^
and it continued...

How many ways can you love dos?


--
Basic training in the techniques of cheerleading, including arm motions,  
cheer-
leading rountines, voice projection, double stunts, pyramid design, along  
with
a development of safety guidelines, crowd control and teamwork. [class at  
UNLV]
eburk@futon.sfsu.edu -or- eburk@sutro.sfsu.edu -or-  
eburk@sfsuvax1.sfsu.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 21:00:54 -0500 
From: Charles William Swiger <cs4w+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: 64-bit CPUs (was DEC's alpha is "way fast")

Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 18-Nov-92 Re: 64-bit CPUs
(was DEC's .. by Scott Byer@adobe.com 
> [ good stuff about a 64-bit strcpy algorithm removed ]
> However, neat as this is, I still don't know how you would write
> the C code to get the compiler to generate a good strcpy.  RISC
> systems require extremely good compilers, and I haven't seen one
> of those yet :-)

Umm, you probably shouldn't do this in C, anyway.  Writing a basic
library function that's used all over is a good candidate for
programming directly in assembly.

The other point I'd like to make is that modern compilers do *much*
better on RISC processors than on CISC processors.  Modern compilers are
generally written with the assumption that there are an infinite number
of "virtual registers" available, and that all registers of the same
type (typically: integer/general purpose vs floating point) can do the
same things (ie, a purely orthagonal instruction set).  The compiler
generates code under this assumption, then performs whats known as
"register allocation" for a specific CPU that assigns the virtual
registers to registers that can actually be used on a specific CPU. 
It's much easier to write a good optimizing compiler under these
circumstances than under a CISC machine where you have to special case
everything.  Peephole optimization is absolutely essential on a CISC,
and usually not needed or helpful on a RISC CPU.

As for a good RISC compiler, check out gcc 2.2; it's quite well done (or
was that smiley for this??).  Also, you should take a look at the new
(red) "Dragon Book":  Compilers: Principles, Techniques, and Tools; it's
the best book available on the subject of compiler theory.

-Chuck

+------------------------------------------+ "Foosh.  Aaughh!!"
| Charles William Swiger -- CMU...crunch!  | "Foosh.  Aauuggghh!!"
| AMS & normal mail: cs4w+@andrew.cmu.edu  | "Cold spray deodorant...."
| NeXTmail: chuck@mon.slip.andrew.cmu.edu  |
+------------------------------------------+   -- Opus, Bloom County [RIP]
From: kim@unix.cc.emory.edu (Kim Wallen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Concerns about NeXT Prices are warranted
Date: 16 Nov 1992 14:32:42 GMT
Organization: Department of Psychology
Distribution: na
Reply-To: kim@unix.cc.emory.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: wallen.psy.emory.edu

The concern expressed her about NeXT hardware prices would seem to be warranted.
Here is Sun's latest color entry point in comparison to others (Sun didn't include NeXT
for some reason).

  50MHz 486DX2 Personal Computers
  -------------------------------

  		                     Dell	  Compaq	     IBM	
	     SPARCclassic                  Model 450 DE/2    DeskPro 50M	     Model 90SX-OL9
	===================================================
MIPS		59.1	    40.0	    40.0	     40.0		 
DP MFLOPS		4.6	     2.4	     2.4	      2.4
		   
Base Price    		$4,295	   $2,649	  $3,869	    $5,975
	  	$3,356 (educational price)

Configured Price	$4,295*	   $4,948	  $7,229	    $8,097	
Price
  ============================================================================  
*15" color monitor, 16mb RAM, 207mb disk, thin ethernet. 
(add $425 for a 424mbyte disk instead of the 207mb).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
  Entry Level Color Workstations
  ------------------------------

			IBM RS/6000	DECstation		 SGI
		SPARCclassic	    220W	 Model 25	HP705	Indigo
		====================================================================

  SPECint92	    	26.4	   15.9	       not Pub	 21.9	 22.4
  SPECfp92	   	21.0	   22.9	       not Pub	 33.0	 24.2
  MIPS		59.1	   29.8	 26.7	 35.0	 30.0
  DP MFLOPS	     	4.6	    6.5	 2.8	 8.4	  4.2

Configured Price   	$4,295	  $6,810	  $9,860       $11,390             $11,500	
  =============================================================================

This system with the excellent Sony 16" color monitor and a 424mb disk is $6,495 or $5,204
for educational users.

I wonder if NeXT will have a response.

--------------------------------------------------
| Kim Wallen                        Internet: kim@unix.cc.emory.edu 
| Department of psychology          Bitnet: kim@emoryu1             
| Emory University                                                  
| Atlanta, GA 30322                                                 
|                                                                   
| Phone: (404) 727-4125             FAX: (404) 727-0372             
 -----------------------------------------

Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy