From: cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis Maria Cortese)
Subject: Re: words
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Organization: University of California, Irvine
Date: 21 Aug 92 16:59:55 GMT

In article <krikket.6371@meltdown.chi.il.us> krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick) writes:
>In article <2A8EEB08.15973@orion.oac.uci.edu>, cortese@skid.ps.uci.edu (Janis
>Maria Cortese) writes:
>>radzy says: 
>>>
>>>One further thing we each (myself included) need to do is
>>>to look at ourselves when others accuse us of something.  The
>>>first step toward ridding ourselves of any traits we don't
>>>want to have is to recognize that they exist.  So many people
>>>(myself included FAR too often), when someone says they have a
>>>problem, simply go into auto-defense mode and stop listening.
>
>>Another further thing we need to do, as well, is to learn to
>>differentiate when a) someone is complaining about a general societal
>>injustice, and b) when we are personally being accused of something.
>>There seems to be a lot of this going around, where someone (gee, like
>>who?) will post drawing attention to a general injustice, and someone
>>ELSE will automatically act as if they stand accused.  They will then
>>proceed to explain why they do nothing of the sort.  Quite frankly, they
>>may not (but I still wonder why they get so defensive if so), but that
>>doesn't mean it doesn't happen.  I have a feeling that if you pinned
>>down most men/hets/white people and asked them, "Do you oppress people?"
>>they would say, "Of course not."  By extension, the oppression would not
>>then exist -- but it does.
>
>Nice logic, but with a flaw...  Understanding.  

Krikket, are you just reading every post I make on this subject and
straining to find something to complain about it?  The flaw is that
*U*N*D*E*R*S*T*A*N*D*I*N*G* is so infrequently given when people talk
about a societal injustice. 

>Yes, there is discrimination in
>America, and being one of those M/H/W people, I would respond "No, but it does
>occur, and although I try to stop it when it does."  Unfortunately many people
>see the blanket statements made about society to include all members of the
>mentioned group(s).  

Once again, I was not saying YOU didn't, and I was not saying that no
M/H/W would respond that way.  I was saying that MOST didn't.  

>I'll even put myself there, conditionally.  Ya see, it
>depends not only on how it's received, but the style of deliverance as well.  A
>well thought out letter griping about general society problems will provoke
>much less of a "You ain't bashin' me!" reaction than a multi-K rant typed out
>at the top of someone's lungs...  It's a matter of UNDERSTANDING both sides.


In other words, I am not allowed to express anger.  In other words, you
aren't prepared to let someone blow off steam and wait until they calm
down.  Did you know that the inability to express anger is a MAJOR
indicator of repressed childhood abuse? 

>>As radzy said, you won't surmount an obstacle in your path by pretending
>>it doesn't exist.  You must acknowledge it and learn about it so that
>>you can pull in down and move on.
>>
>>It is complicated, though, and I just got a dose of that myself this
>>weekend.  (The gay/les/bi readers will probably hold their sides in
>>laughter at this one.)  There is a two day Gay/Lesbian Pride Festival
>>held in the park in the middle of my university every summer, and it's
>>quite a neat thing; I never would have guessed that plaid-pants,
>>Republican, traditionalfamilyvalues Irvine would permit such a thing,
>>but it's nice to see something normal in this place every now and then.
>
>Once again, understanding comes into play here.  The disqualifier you pput on
>the above paragraph ([ONLY] gay/les/bi readers will...) only helps ailenate
>people.  

How?  All I was saying is that this grand realization that I had about
being supportive of gay/les/bi rights not meaning I was any more used to
seeing them than anyone else would have been realized a long time ago by
ANY gay/les/bi person.  All I was saying is that this grandrealization
that I thought was earth-shaking was probably quite pedestrian to the
people who have to deal with it all the time. 

>What about those of us, who are M/H/W's and are active in the local
>gay community?  General statements and comments are fine, but be careful with
>them!

If you know they are general, can't you look past them?  I did not say
that there were NO M/H/W people out there capable of understanding this.
I said only that my revelation was probably quite ordinary to gay/les/bi
people who deal with it all day long. 

>>At any rate, I would hope most of you know already that I am a staunch
>>supporter of gay/les/bi rights from my posts.  HOWEVER, I am no less apt
>>to be surprised when I see two people of the same sex with their arms
>>around each other than anyone else.  Why?
>>
>>I've heard from guys who take vacations in Europe who head first thing
>>for the nude and topless beaches -- "Oooh, oooh, lookit the titties!"
>>After about a week, they just don't care about them anymore.
>>
>>This is the same type of thing for me and I suspect a lot of other hets
>>who support gay/les/bi rights.  In the mainstrean het society, you just
>>don't see it that often; as a consequence it is a novelty when you DO.
>>However, with continued exposure to it, the novelty will wear off and it
>>will be accepted as nothing special.  When you cover up something and
>>pretend it doesn't exist, seeing it can shock you right out of your
>>drawers; let's face it, there isn't one person on this Earth who doesn't
>>know that women have breasts.  Seeing them is nonetheless, shocking when
>>they are covered up all the time.  Through exposure, though, acceptance
>>soon settles in.
>
>Damn streight.  (Pardon the blatent pun, I couldn't resist!)
>
>>I am a member of a predominantly het society.  Regardless of my
>>political stand on gay/les/bi rights, I do not EVER see two men 
>>kissing romantically, or two women holding each other romantically
>>(the shit "lesbian" garbage in porn doesn't count since that is for the
>>edification of the reader anyway and hence I suspect nowhere NEAR actual
>>lesbianism).  As a result, I also will be shocked out of my drawers to
>>see it, and I don't like admitting that, either.  I'm bothered by it, by
>>my inability to just accept this as normal.
>
>I'm sorry to hear that.  Looks like it's time to give yourself some more
>exposure, IMHO.  

I would like to. 

>You'll be amazed at how easy it can be to find the local gay
>community, and get rid of these prejudices.  It just takes a stong will to
>actually DO anything about it.  Desnetizing yourself may be the next step.

Quite.  All it takes is a little time to see it around, and you WILL get
used to it.  (I'm assuming you meant "desensitizing!") 

>>As far as possible when your life is not endangered, ACT UP.  We need to
>>see you.  When something is covered up (from breasts to sexual
>>preferences), you can pretend it doesn't exist.
>>
>>I'm not sure why I posted this -- radzy's post just seems to have
>>triggered it.  Talking about oppression means not pretending it doesn't
>>exist.  ACT THE FUCK UP.  We need to see you badly.
>
>A comment... Don't Act Up just for the sake of Acting up!  That just causes
>more problems in the long run.  It would take a nationwide "comming out of the
>closet" to really have an effect.  And groups like "ACT UP" which try to force
>people out of the closet a actually HARMING peoples LIVES in the process.  

No one should be "forced" out of the closet.  They are probably in there
for a good reason, and forcing someone out when they could get killed or
have their kids taken away is damaging.  Besides, when someone is ready
to come out, they will.  It is a judgement call, like every other 
important decision (like, say, ABORTION) and the person who has to make
it knows more about their lives than anyone else, and can make the
decision for themselves better tham anyone else can.  

>Yes,
>the person comes out of the closet, and it may help the big picture, but at
>what cost?  The loss of job, friends, family...  No thanks.  This is why I
>selectively stay IN the broom closet.  I don't need to be fired from another
>job, or have another female companion forcibly seperated from me...

Understood.  I was unaware that there was actually a group that did this
stuff.  I don't think I'm really in a position to pass judgement on ACT
UP (and someone posting saying "I'm a member and who told you you knew
what you were talking about?" has good grounds for flaming me), but this
decision seems as personal as abortion.  And, like abortion, it is a
decision that must be made by the individual -- they know their lives
best, and can make the best decision for themselves.  It's the same with
the broom closet.  Anyone who is there is there for REASONS that seem
valid to them.  These reasons should be respected.

Blessings,
Janis


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