HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu (Bob Kosovsky)
Subject: Re: Beethoven Opus & Woo
Reply-To: kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu
Organization: Computer Center, CUNY Graduate School, New York NY 10036
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1992 13:27:00 GMT

In article <1992Jul20.181317.17734@CSD-NewsHost.Stanford.EDU>, spg@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Stephen P. Guthrie) writes:
>I know that the WoO in some of Beethoven's compositions means work without
>opus number. I think there are about 150 opus numbers, but how many WoOs
>are there. Are they mainly of lesser quality or are there any important
>works by Beethoven that were never graced with an opus? What's the deal?

In Georg Kinsky's Verzeichnis of the works of Beethovens there are 205
works without opus numbers, plus a whole bunch of other works whose
attribution to Beethoven is in doubt (including that famous "sonatina" in
G major that many novice pianists have played).  You certainly would not
want to compare any of these works to the symphonies;  nevertheless there
are a couple of well-known works that lack opus numbers:  many of the piano
variations, the variations for piano and cello, many dances (for all sorts
of mediums, songs, folk-songs, and canons.  WoO 205 is a brief canon found
in a letter to a Nikolaus von Zmeskall.

In addition there are a small number of mostly juvenile works carrying the
name of Hess - granted by musicologist Willy Hess.

Remember that opus numbers were given by publishers.  Beethoven is among the
few composers for whom opus numbers can afford us an approximate reference
for dating, though there are exceptions (Op. 48 is from ca. 1803, Op. 49 is 
from ca. 1795-96;  both were *published* in the same year, 1805).

Bob Kosovsky
Graduate Center -- Ph.D. Program in Music(student)/ City University of New York
New York Public Library -- Music Division
bitnet:   kos@cunyvms1.bitnet        internet: kos@cunyvms1.gc.cuny.edu
Disclaimer:  My opinions do not necessarily represent those of my institutions.
From: Mike_Quigley@mindlink.bc.ca (Mike Quigley)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: minimalism
Date: 22 Jul 92 19:20:58 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada

Deryk Barker (dbarker@camins.camosun.bc.ca) writes:

> Does anyone else feel that Glass is completely overrated?

Not only do I think Glass is overrated, I think it's unfortunate that he is
RATED, period.


--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you're going to reply in E-mail, please don't quote my whole
message back to me -- I (usually) remember what I said!
Mike Quigley, Vancouver, B.C., Canada             Mike_Quigley@mindlink.bc.ca
From: maverick@cs.berkeley.edu (Vance Maverick)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Minimalists/Andriessen
Date: 21 Jul 1992 19:25:31 GMT
Organization: CS Division, UC Berkeley
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: cork.cs.berkeley.edu

In article <l6oo5uINNfec@calvin.usc.edu>, alves@calvin.usc.edu (William Alves) writes:
|> Here's a list of some of the composers who have been inflicted with
|> the minimalist label over the years:
|> 
|> [good list]

One way to attack the uniformity of the label "minimalist" applied to this
diverse bunch is to consider whether any of their work resembles trends
known as minimalism in other arts.  We might see the minimalism of
sculpture or painting reflected in La Monte Young, for example, or Pauline
Oliveros -- but hardly in Glass or Nyman.

Now, who does music which resembles literary minimalism?  Who is the
Raymond Carver of sound?  Maybe Robert Ashley, or some of the Mills people
from his tenure there?

Bemused in Menlo Park
From: jseboldt@pnet51.orb.mn.org (John Seboldt)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Sight-reading vs. memorization? [Re: any help...]
Date: 26 Jul 92 22:40:15 GMT
Organization: People-Net [pnet51], Minneapolis, MN.

For what it's worth, I am one of those who sight-reads poorly, but memorizes
well -- and can transpose more "by ear" than "at sight."  Still, the presence
of the score improves my performance for most day-to-day work, even if I am
not actually reading the score in detail... kind of an overall, wholistic
"schema".

: John Seboldt...Minneapolis, MN...As a ham, K0JD...as a human,       :
: right-brained yet right-handed...as a musician, techie yet creative :
:   UUCP: {crash, kksys, petrus, quest}!orbit!pnet51!jseboldt         :
:   ARPA: crash!orbit!pnet51!jseboldt@nosc.mil                        :
:   INET: jseboldt@pnet51.orb.mn.org                                  :
From: vanloon@cwi.nl (M. van Loon)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: What if...
Date: 27 Jul 92 09:15:15 GMT
Distribution: rec
Organization: CWI, Amsterdam

In article <1992Jul24.212756.2172@titan.tsd.arlut.utexas.edu> colby@tsd.arlut.utexas.edu (Colby Leider) writes:
>What if...
>...J.S. Bach were alive today?
>
>colby leider
>colby@titan.tsd.arlut.utexas.edu

That's a very easy question to answer.
He would travel to the Netherlands as fast as he can.
He would go to Haarlem (a city about 20 km from Amsterdam)
and there he would become organist in the St. Bavo
church (with the famous Christian Mu"ller organ). 

He would also compose more beautiful organ works, cantatas
etc. and all those terrible minimalistic music would not
have been composed as well as other sorts of non-music.

You see, difficult questions sometimes have simple answers.

Maarten

ps. Are there people who are
    1. a Bach fan just like I am
    2. also playing the organ
    3. play organ in church
    4. willing to mail me and share experiences
    ?
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: mjw@Xenon.Stanford.EDU (Michael Wolverton)
Subject: Re: Ein Deutsches Requiem (was Re: Christa Ludwig)
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University.
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 23:34:51 GMT


Chris Brewster writes:
>Ian Daniel writes:
>
>>   ...what is Klemperer's Deutsches Requiem like? ...
>
>I consider Klemperer's version *the* one to get.  
>[lots of informed praise deleted]

In the interest of equal time :-), I thought I'd mention that the
Klemperer is easily my least favorite German Requiem of the four I've
heard.  I agree with Chris that Fischer-Dieskau is awesome.  I suppose
I'd agree also that Klemperer's interpretation is more "forceful" than
others I've heard (although I don't know that I'd equate that with
being "Germanic").  And I also noticed the "high point" that Chris
mentioned -- the horns blaring away in the 2nd movement -- although it
didn't really inspire fear with me.

The real reason I don't like this recording is the chorus.  It really
is substandard.  The intonation is shaky throughout, and gets really
bad when the sopranos try to land a high note.  The altos' tone is
pretty ugly to my ears.  The balance between sections isn't very good
in places.  And their entrances are pretty ragged in a few places.  It
isn't the worst chorus I've ever heard, but I think that it's
noticeably a notch below the average recording-quality chorus, and
it's *certainly* way below the top-of-the-line choruses around today.
Most importantly, since I think that the Brahms Requiem is
first-and-foremost a choral piece, I'd rather have a recording with a
choir that can pull the piece off, possibly at the expense of having
superstars singing the relatively short solos.  (I wouldn't say the
same thing with, e.g., the Verdi Requiem.)

I have two recordings which are really fine all-around: the
Gardiner/Monteverdi CD on Phillips and the Shaw/Atlanta CD on Telarc.
The Gardiner is a smaller sound than you might usually get with this
piece, and you can occasionally tell that they're using original
instruments, but the singing and interpretation are first-rate.
(Listen especially to the attention to text and phrasing in the trio
of the 2nd movement -- Wow!).  But as good as the Gardiner is, it's
nudged out by the Shaw recording for me.  Both of these recordings
have the additional advantage over Klemperer of modern sound.

[2 caveats about my criticisms of the Klemperer: 1) I've only heard
the recording on LP, so it's possible that they did something to clean
up the singing in the transfer to CD. 2) The Klemperer has received
near-unanimous critical praise, so, what do I know?]

-Michael
-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Wolverton                       "Is that clear?"
mjw@cs.stanford.edu                     "No, but it's consistent!"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: steve@fid.morgan.com (Steve Apter)
Subject: Re: Piece by Ben Franklin?
Organization: Morgan Stanley & Co., New York, NY
Distribution: na
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 03:16:17 GMT

In article <1992Jul21.233621.13615@tellab5.tellabs.com> lampson@tellabs.com (Dave Lampson) writes:
:
>CHADWICK               Quartet #4 in E minor                                 ADD
:
How about Ruth, the wife?  Have any of the piano pieces been
recorded?


Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: erwin@helsinki.ks.uiuc.edu (Edgar Erwin)
Subject: Re: Minimalists/Andriessen, Re: Requiem music
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 18:33:00 GMT

William Alves writes
> Here's a list of some of the composers who have been inflicted with
> the minimalist label over the years:
> 
> ... Daniel Lentz ...
> 

  Has anyone other than Lentz written a minimalist-ish Requiem?

  (BTW, Lentz' Requiem is only slightly over two minutes, so I wouldn't advise  
going out of your way to hear it.)

  (Despite my last post, I don't consider Ligeti's requiem minimalistic.)

Ed erwin@lisboa.ks.uiuc.edu
From: cubsfan@cultnet.ch (wrobel)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Joan Crawford movie
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 92 20:37:06 GMT
Organization: CULTNET Communication Systems for Art & Science

The violin was played by Isaac Stern, although John Garfield had the role.  
Oscar Levant - who really was quite a good pianist- also  had some funny 
lines in the film.  I don't remember the title, but it was something corny, 
like "Moonlight sonata".  
Deborah Burton

.......................................................................
Internet: cubsfan@cultnet.ch
CULTNET (SWITZERLAND) E.V.
INTERNATIONAL COMMUNICATION SYSTEMS FOR ART AND SCIENCE
.......................................................................
Xref: sparky rec.music.classical:10465 ba.music:1276
From: dbucher@ocf.berkeley.edu (Daniel Bucher)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical,ba.music,ucb.arts,ucb.general
Subject: Re: University Symphony Concert
Date: 29 Jul 1992 01:58:16 GMT
Organization: U.C. Berkeley Open Computing Facility
Distribution: ca
NNTP-Posting-Host: avalanche.berkeley.edu
Keywords: Tchaikovsky, Debussy, Mozart, Wagner

In article <154la9INNgem@agate.berkeley.edu> kc@soda.berkeley.edu (Kwei-Cee Chu) writes:
>The U.C. Berkeley University Symphony (well, whoever stuck around for
>the Summer) is giving a concert this Friday in Hertz Hall on the UCB

What Time?


-- 
s/ Daniel Bucher  dbucher@ocf.berkeley.edu  Cognitive Science, Class of '94
			    G O   B E A R S
From: givler@bermuda (Greg Givler)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Another Gotterdammerung Mystery
Date: 22 Jul 92 18:14:09 GMT
Organization: Another Amiga UNIX System

In article <CB.92Jul20140344@tamarack13.timbuk> cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster) writes:
>Greg Givler writes:
>
>    Maybe I am wrong, but didn't Melchior start his career as a Baritone, and 
>   work his way up. Much the way Warren started as a Tenor and worked his way 
>   down to Baritone.
>
>Isn't the latter case also true of Fishcher-Dieskau?

I don't know, but that could explain his lack of bottom. I have him singing
Elijah and he is barely audible on the one an only low A that he ventures
to sing. In fact he almost grovels to sing the note. Now I am not a high
Baritone, but I do have the High A and the low A, although the High A is
much more iffy than the low one. :-) Fishcher-Dieskau avoids one low A 
instead staying on the D above it, at the end of one of the Recitatives.

BTW, for fans of Elijah, the recording is on Angel, with Fruebeck de Burgos, 
I know I mangled the Spelling of Rafael's name. I think it is exquisite. 
the Soloists are, Dieskau, Gedda, Baker, and I think Gwenith Jones, there may
be a fifth female soloist but I can't remember who. The chorus, which I 
also can't remember the name of is one of the best sounding choruses. The 
Tenors are wonderful and so are the Soprano's and the Conductor keeps it
under wonderful control.

I don't know if it has be re-released on CD, but I hope that it will, also 
it is sung in English.

>
>Chris Brewster

Greg
-- 
Greg Givler                 | "If you're not going to kill me,
Commodore Product Assurance | I have things to do." - From Darkman
givler@cbmvax.commodore.com |
===============================================================================
From: maverick@cs.berkeley.edu (Vance Maverick)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: minimalism
Date: 29 Jul 1992 18:41:30 GMT
Organization: CS Division, UC Berkeley
Distribution: na
NNTP-Posting-Host: cork.cs.berkeley.edu

In article <l7do04INNfng@calvin.usc.edu>, alves@calvin.usc.edu (William Alves) writes:
|> 
|> Painters
|> seem to be able to get away with producing the same work with minor varia-
|> tions for YEARS. I was especially struck by this when I saw a recent exhibit
|> of Ad Reinhardt, though there are many other artists about whom one could
|> say the same thing. Yet do critics berate them for "not growing"?

Actually, they do complain of exhibits which suggest some idea has been
played out.  Partly, I think this reflects the curious, provisional spirit
in which the "ideas" are adopted -- as a kind of gambit to buy time,
expected to last only so long.  (I don't know Reinhardt well enough to
judge whether his minimalisms are like this.)  Donald Barthelme has
captured this spirit amusingly in pieces like "Letters to the Editore", and
a story whose name I forget, in the course of which the painter protagonist
moves from the burnt-out end of his "Yawning Man" period to the optimism of
the beginning of the "Falling Dog" series.

You'd think someone would have jumped on Scelsi for repetition -- but the
combination of the power of the music and its relative obscurity yields a
tone of extreme respect in almost all the writing I've seen.  Me, I'm glad
he kept on digging new stuff out of the same bag.

	Vance
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: steve@fid.morgan.com (Steve Apter)
Subject: Re: minimalism
Organization: Morgan Stanley & Co., New York, NY
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1992 04:09:47 GMT

In article <1992Jul22.032739.25791@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> jefrank@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Jason E Frank) writes:
>In article <BrrFJG.EF@quake.sylmar.ca.us> brian@quake.sylmar.ca.us (Brian K. Yoder) writes:
>>I'm glad to hear that "minimalism" is not your "favorite" genre, but how can you
>>justify having any desire to listen to it?  Or are you another of these "Lustigians"
>>who don't think that there is any way to evaluate musical quality aside from 
>>knee-jerk emotionalism which is beyond explanation?
>>
>Just to give an obvious example, I enjoy Glass' "Music in Twelve Parts" for
>much the same reasons that I enjoy a good roller coaster--not that I can
>really explain either.
>--j.e.f.

I enjoy throwing up myself.

The music?  Keep it simple, stark, and ugly.  Wolpe, for example.  Or Mozart.

I'll sing along with Brian on this one.  This is music that reeks of
despair.  When everything is permitted, who gives a damn.  Might as 
well listen to the Liverpool Oratorio.

I guess it's time to drag out my 18 foot (lifesize) bust of Beethoven.
Anybody got a goat?


Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: camg0370@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Christopher A. Morosin)
Subject: Re: Good version of 'The planets' by Holst?
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1992 17:40:20 GMT




Regarding the Planets:

I have a copy of and enjoy very much the Dutoit/Montreal recording, but I 
also have a recording of Andrew Davis and the Toronto Symmphony that isn't
very well known but in my opinion outshines the Dutoit recording.

In addition to the use of the organ (which is shamefully ommited in several 
recordings) the Davis recording uses a children's choir instead of a women's
choir in Neptune, which adds a different quality to the work, and i THINK
may be what is called for in the score, but I'm not sure about that. The 
xylophone in Uranus also comes out better in the Davis than most of the 
other recordings as well. (I also liked Dutoit's Jupiter, by the way.)

So there's my 02 cents.
Chris
From: haack@iscsvax.uni.edu
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Science fiction operas (and Tolkien)
Date: 22 Jul 92 09:47:04 -0500
Organization: University of Northern Iowa

For a science fiction opera, consider Anthony Davis's "Under the Double Moon,"
premiered at the St. Louis summer season in 1989.

With regard to the Tolkien recordings mentioned previously, here are  a few
details:
There is a 4-record set issued by Caedmon called the "JRR Tolkien Soundbook"
(SBR101).  The four discs included are JRR reading (and singing, briefly) 
from The Hobbit (TC1477) and The Lord of the Rings (TC1478), JRR reading and
Swan(n) singing his settings of Tolkien poems on Poems and Songs of Middle
Earth (TC1231), and Christopher (JRR's son and editor) reading from The
Simarillion (TC1564). 

On TC1477, JRR sings "Troll Sat Alone," which is said (on the album cover) to
be freely set to the folk-tune The Fox and Hens.  On TC1478, JRR sings in
Elvish to a plain chant.  Swan(n)'s (I forgot to check on the extra n) piece is
"The Road Goes Ever On; a song cycle," and occupies almost all of the second
side of TC1231.

BTW, the music and texts for the song cycle were published by Ballantine in
1967.  At that time, the cost was $2.95 for a thin hardcover!
From: "hilary miller" <hilary.miller@execnet.com>
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: a question regarding
Date: 29 Jul 92 07:19:33 EST
Reply-To: "hilary miller" <hilary.miller@execnet.com>
Distribution: rec
Organization: Executive Networks Information


Terry Carroll, in a message to All on 07-28-92 at 4:47pm, said:

TC>||I think Cal. Probate 6408 and 26 cover all the bases.  Cal. Civil 230,
   |_______________________________________________________________________
   |related to the adoption of an illegitimate child, was repealed in 1975.
   |not sure if there is a replacement statute.  Cal. Probate 255 deals wit
   |status of good faith purchasers when the decedent was murdered, and I'm
   |assuming that that's not applicable here!
   |_______________________________________________________________________

               The decedent in question died in 1959.  I was re-
               ferring to the two codes in effect at that time,
               because it would be applicable to inheritances
               from his estate, and the section references are
               correct.  Although I am pretty sure the substan-
               tive law has not changed, I haven't done the re-
               search and would be surprised to find such chang-
               es, if any, were retroactive in application.  I'm
               curious, though, so if you care to look it up, let
               me know what you find out.  Start with _Garcia v.
               Rogers_, 34 Cal.2d 419, 210 P.2d 841 (1949), which
               was still good law as late as 1975.


   L A
 I    R        Hilary B. Miller of Greenwich, Connecticut
  H/\Y         CIS: 76040,1743
    
---
  DeLuxe 1.25 #11645  Feed your faith and starve your doubts to death.
--
Executive Network Information System  (914) 667-4567
International ILink Host
From: S_TITZ@iravcl.ira.uka.de (Olaf Titz)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Question about "Carmina Burana"
Date: 27 Jul 92 15:24:30 GMT
Organization: Fachschaft Informatik, Uni Karlsruhe
NNTP-Posting-Host: irav1.ira.uka.de
X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.23

It is even worse...

In <76558@ut-emx.uucp> amadeus@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu writes:

>  John Thayer Jensen writes:
>  >Kuo-Yeang Tsai writes:
>  >
>  >>Why does it (Carmina Burana) sound demoniac? 
>  >
>  >>Even without reading the somewhat offensive lyrics, friend asked
>  >>"Is this Satan-worshipping music?" upon hearing the first few 
>  >>passages.
>  >
...
>  Oh dear.  Lots of misconceptions here.  Let's see if we can straighten
>  them out...
...
>  I think the reason people may associate this piece (let's face it;
>  we're not talking about the whole thing at all, just that very first
>  movement) with "devil worship" or "demonism" or whatever crap you want
>  to call it is that it's been used in cheesy witchcraft movies.  They
...
>  Why do they use it for these things?  I think it's the chanting
>  effect.  Very powerful.  I've always enjoyed it.  That's why the
>  soundtracks to these two-bit horror movies incorporate every rip-off
>  to choral pieces like this that they can.
>  
>  But please.  This is not "devil-worshipping" music.  It is secular.
>  Meaning not sacred.  And it is not really pagan, for that matter.  (I

Hmmmm.

On Orff, you're right. But on the impression one gets while listening
/Carmina Burana/ the whole discussion has missed an important point
(maybe it's important in Europe only): 

Recently Orff's /Fortuna/ has been *ab*used in a whole different genre
of horror movies (non-:-) :  i.e. TV commercials.

German, Swiss, maybe other Europeans now hear a 20-second /Fortuna/
cut-out and think: 'Wow! Swiss chocolate!' (no I don't mention the
brand, as it is known anyway).  Now *that's* secular! And the reason
they chose Orff for selling chocolate is likely to be just the same
you stated for the B-pictures.  

To not miss any possible point in commercialization, record companies
have even dared to sell LPs with selected bits of classical music used
in commercials (Mozart for champagne etc.); the LP has the same title
as the original chocolate commercial slogan.

And following this recent Chocolate-Orff-mania in Germany (record
stores never have been selling so much /Carmina Burana/ as during the
last six months) two versions of /Fortuna/ backed by disco beat have
been published but unFORTUNAtely got banned by the copyright holders.
(You may bash me but I am much less upset about the disco versions than
about the commercials.)

O tempora, o mores!

MfG,
        Olaf
--
                                                             o
 Olaf Titz           \    s_titz@iravcl.ira.uka.de \        _/\
                      \   uknf@dkauni2.bitnet       \      _//|_.
y.a. comp.sc.student   \  +49-721-60439@voice        \    (_)`(_) 
Uni Karlsruhe, Germany  \ praetoriu@irc               \~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wenn Sie trockenen Wein m"ogen und haben nur zwei halbtrockene,
 sch"utten Sie die zusammen, das ist dann ganz trocken.
 - Thomas Gottschalk
From: jkp@ukc.ac.uk (J.K.Pearson)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Science Fiction Operas Wanted
Date: 27 Jul 92 17:12:27 GMT
Reply-To: jkp@ukc.ac.uk (J.K.Pearson)
Organization: Electronics Lab, University of Kent at Canterbury, UK.

In article <1992Jul24.140139.4427@lloyd.Camex.COM> chrisi@lloyd.Camex.COM (Chris Ischay) writes:
>In article <1992Jul10.174614.15532@cbnewsj.cb.att.com>
>ecl@cbnewsj.cb.att.com (Evelyn C. Leeper) writes:
>
>>  So I'd like to tap the
>>collective r.m.c brain for the names of science fiction operas, or
>>operas with science fictional themes.
>
>How about Janacek's "Excursions of Mr. Broucek?"  Or for that matter,
>even more to the point, "Makropoulos Case."  Both of these are very

Or what about Hayden "The world of the Moon", I heard a bit of it last night.

Justin Pearson