From: glenne@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Neuromancer )
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy
Subject: Re: Which brand(s) of anarchy?
Date: 30 Sep 1992 17:47:15 GMT
Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Distribution: world,local
NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.89.7.4

pmetzger@shearson.com (Perry Metzger) writes:
>My apologies in advance for flaming, but...
You haven't come to flame me, you've come to gloat.  Because
Thant has already knocked me off my high horse. ;)  No apology
needed.
 
>Lets get real here. Creatures that don't try to preserve themselves
>die off, leave no offspring, and are hung out to dry on the
>evolutionary tree.
Agreed.
 
>All living things seek self preservation, first and foremost.
Beware of nasty absolutes like this.  What about suicide, and
martyrdom?
 
>There is nothing wrong with this.
Obviously neither of us knows enough about love and ethics to
make such a sweeping moral statement.
 
>Some people think this means "dog eat dog", which is also hogwash:
>people like Axelrod with his study of iterative prisoners dilemas
>have shown conclusively that cooperation rather than defection tends
>to be the best survival strategy in the long run.
Make your statement stronger by substituting competition for defection
and you have a brilliant idea that I wholeheartedly subscribe to.
 
 
>I'd gloat and say that Ayn Rand had this all clear long ago, but hey,
>I'm an objectivist.
Oh come now, you'd never gloat.  ;)
 
>Going back to the beginning,
In the beginning...
 
>it takes great strength to give away all
>your worldly goods because its foolish. If everyone did this, who
>would be left to receive any goods? Would the ideal society have us
>all naked offering all we have to each other. "Take my coat." "No, I
>insist, take mine!".
The point isn't sacrifice... it's mercy...  how can we live in our
comfortable houses with our well stuffed bellies knowing there are
people suffering?  It ought to make us sick.  50,000 people will
fight traffic and pay money to support a pro-sports team, but we
don't exactly beat a path to the homeless, the mentally ill, and all
the other people we deem to be rejects.  What is wrong with us?
 
>The idea that people should give away their goods
>seems based on the false premise that the world has a fixed amount of
>wealth and that the only way to make the poor better off is to
>redistribute this wealth. This is not true. Every time someone builds
>something, produces something, fixes something, or otherwise works,
>the world becomes a richer place. The pool of things that we possess
>increases. Wealth is not fixed. The economy is not a zero sum game.
>By giving away all you have and becoming a beggar, you not only
>eliminate all future contributions you can make to society in your
>present capacity, but also eliminate all the useful investments you
>can make with your goods, which would make all of society richer in
>the long run.
This is one of your best arguments...  Tell me what I want to hear..
I don't have to give away my possesions...   Why if I were to keep
my old lifestyle,  I'd be doing the right thing, helping the world.
I agree that I would be more productive if I stayed in college.
But ALL of society would be richer?   I think not...  Those who
could afford the fruits of my labor would be richer.   What about
those who cannot?  To hell with them?  I think this is where your
whole argument falls apart.
 
>Lastly being willing to use violence to protect yourself doesn't imply
>that you are a naturally violent person. Many people would be willing
>to kill to save their children's lives from an intruder in their
>homes; few would be willing to use violence in their daily lives. It
>is unnecessary to extrapolate people's behavior in extreme cases to
>the normal course of affairs.
What counts is not what you do when life is going your way...
What counts is what you do when you are under the gun.  And here
is where I fail miserably.  I know I should sell everything I own
and give the money to the poor.  I just don't have the guts to do it.
I'm just am too selfish.   So gloat... gloat all you want...  you've
won Arkhos.  Until I actually try giving away all that I have, my
words are so many hot electrons on your monitor.  Until I do this,
I cannot talk from experience.  At least I no longer feel like I
am above you.

Glenn                            glenne@csd4.csd.uwm.edu
Newsgroups: alt.society.anarchy