HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: esz001@cck.coventry.ac.uk (Will Overington)
Newsgroups: alt.uu.future
Subject: Usenet University, where is it going?
Date: 9 Nov 92 13:01:58 GMT
Organization: Coventry University

9th November 1992

Usenet University is now getting into the swing of things
starting to be learned. I have been joining in the work in
alt.uu.lang.esperanto.misc and things are starting to develop.

I wonder if we could now discuss a variety of matters, including
the following, but not limited to this selection.
I have in mind people saying where they stand on various matters
with a view to trying to get net based working groups established
or dropping the idea in each case.

Learning Material.
I have got my Turqoise Lattice presentation system for PCs going
and, once I can get official permission from this University to
send it out, then it is a vehicle for writing learning material
packs. It is only a simple system at present, but is useable and
it will not have any licensing problems over sending it around.
Is anyone interested in spending time in preparing fairly substantial
learning packs?

Research.
Is anyone interested in trying to get some sort of long term research
group off the ground. The subject (or subjects if there are two or
more such research groups) would need to be decided by a cooperative
haggling process, possibly in alt.uu.future, but are people able and
willing to try to make part-time research "at" Usenet University
part of their work over a period of several years, with a view to
seeing if the concept can work, but primarily to do actual research?

Credits, Claimed Credits, Claimable Credits &c
Some time ago I put forward the concept of a Self Awarded Credit for
discussion and got firmly put in my place by various people, though not
the regular readers of alt.uu.future I noticed, who all seemed to
be very quiet about it all. Maybe I was totally wrong, but I like to think
that there was a germ of a good idea in there with the prospect of
people being able to claim that they could perform any task in the
validation manual for that credit and being ever ready to do so, with
the possibility that some existing "ground based" institution might
offer such a test under examination conditions leading, if successful,
to a credit.
Could people please discuss the concept with the important variation
from what I previously suggested that we do not call "them" credits
but use some term such as "stars" or maybe even some specially coined
new word.
Newsgroups: alt.uu.future
From: jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala)
Subject: Re: ADMIN,DOC: Usenet University FAQ
Keywords: self, distance, education, uu, volunteer, learning, cooperation
Reply-To: jkp@cs.HUT.FI (Jyrki Kuoppala)
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 11:35:48 GMT

In article <BxIBM0.Fo4@cck.coventry.ac.uk>, esz001@cck (Will Overington) writes:
>>"Usenet" refers to the global conferencing network used as a medium or
>>one of the media for Usenet University, as well as the "spirit" of UU
>>- UU is open to anyone who can access it, free for expressing ideas,
>>is quite a bit anarchistic in nature, and thus as Usenet newsgroups UU
>>will be what the participants cause it to be.
>>

>Surely "anarchistic" implies being opposed to the existing ways of
>doing things in existing universities, which is simply not what uu
>is about.

I don't think "anarchistic" implies such.  In any case I didn't mean
to imply that when writing the paragraph - what I meant with
"anarchistic" here is more like "lack of hierarchy, lack of central
administration".

>I feel that the phrase "is quite a bit anarchistic in nature" is
>wrong and should be replaced with something such as
>
>"is a venue for novel thoughts about learning"

I changed the paragraph to read:

"Usenet" refers to the global conferencing network used as a medium or
one of the media for Usenet University, as well as the "spirit" of UU
- UU is open to anyone who can access it, free for expressing ideas,
is a bit anarchistic (meaning no central administration and no
hierarchy) in nature, and thus as Usenet newsgroups UU will be what
the participants cause it to be - hopefully a functioning open venue
for novel thoughts and ideas about learning and other topics.

Is this better?  More changes needed?

//Jyrki
Newsgroups: alt.uu.announce,alt.uu.future,news.answers
From: J.Theodore.Schuerzinger@dartmouth.edu (J. Theodore Schuerzinger)
Newsgroups: alt.uu.lang.esperanto.misc
Subject: Re: U` => Declension cases in Esperanto
Date: 9 Nov 92 21:41:50 GMT
 <1992Nov6.205612.28827@clark.dgim.doc.ca> 
 <1992Nov8.192414.16370@lclark.edu> <BxG7sE.9rs@cck.coventry.ac.uk>  
 <1992Nov9.191153.249@infodev.cam.ac.uk>
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0a5@newshost.dartmouth.edu

Will--
You suggest it be taught that Esperanto really has five cases, like
Latin, but all the cases (excluding accusative) have the same endings
as the nominative.  Where do you come off with this pro-Latin attitude?
:-)

Why don't we just say Esperanto has four cases like German, except that
three of them have the same ending?  Or maybe Esperanto has six cases,
like Russian.  Or is it seven cases, like Czech?  Or maybe FIFTEEN
cases, like Finnish?

The point is that talking about grammatical cases generally makes the
language more confusing.  I've learned a bunch of languages, and seeing
the reactions of the people I learned with, I think I can say I'm
speaking from experience.

--Ted Schuerzinger
email: .zed@Dartmouth.EDU
"I should have realized it would be bad vodka when all the label said
was 'Russian Vodka'."
From: duncan@spd.eee.strathclyde.ac.uk (Duncan C Thomson)
Newsgroups: alt.uu.lang.esperanto.misc
Subject: Re: U` => Declension cases in Esperanto
Date: 10 Nov 92 10:23:13 GMT
Organization: SPD, Strathclyde University, Glasgow, Scotland
Originator: duncan@ossian

En alt.uu.lang.esperanto.misc esz001@cck.coventry.ac.uk (Will Overington) diras:
>I did some Latin, and just a little German years ago, so think
>of there being six cases, as in Latin, or four as in German.

Aha - perhaps *this* is the reason your Esperanto learning isn't so fast.

Aha - *jen* kial vi ne lernas Esperanton rapide.

> [ a screenful of text explaining that Esperanto has in fact got four
>   (or is it six) cases and that *this* is how it should be taught    ]
>
>If people agree with me on this approach, maybe we can draw up a
>piece of learning material.

I very much disagree.  Here we have a beautifully easy language with two
completely regular cases, and you want to complicate things by saying it
has six cases, only one of which uses an ending, and four of which use
prepositions.  I'm sure the average person learning Esperanto has no
interest in spending days learning Latin case structure before learning
their first Esperanto word.

Amike (kaj ne-flame),

	-Duncan
-- 
Duncan C THOMSON                            |  .__ _.._ .__._  _ , .___ _
         <duncan@spd.eee.strathclyde.ac.uk> |  |_ |_ |_||_ |_|/_\|\| | / \
SPD, Dept of EEE, University of Strathclyde |  |__._||  |__| \| || | | \_/
204 George Street, Glasgow G1 1XW, UK       | esperanto - lingvo internacia
Newsgroups: alt.uu.lang.esperanto.misc
From: higa@lclark.edu (Keith Higa)
Subject: Re: U`
Organization: Lewis & Clark College, Portland OR
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 19:14:23 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.155542.29474@clark.dgim.doc.ca> krys@dgim.doc.ca writes:
>
>
>In article 640@infodev.cam.ac.uk, etg10@cl.cam.ac.uk (Edmund Grimley-Evans) 
>writes:>
>
>
>>.... Here is a complete list of the roots in the "Baza Radikaro Oficiala"
>>containing one of those sounds:
>>
>>	e^ho (echo)
>>	^hemio = kemio (chemistry)
>>	^horo (choir)
>>	me^haniko = mekaniko (mechanics)
>>	me^hanismo = mekanismo(mechanism)
>>	te^hniko = tekniko (technique; technology)
>>
>>	-a^jo (denotes concrete ideas)
>>	de^jori (be on duty)
>>	^jaluza (jealous)
>>	^ja^udo (Thursday)
>>	^jeti (throw)
>>	^juri (swear an oath)
>>	^jurnalo (newspaper)
>>	^jus(just now, a moment ago)
>>
>>.... Most of the instances of ^J in a normal text are due to the common
>>ending "-a^jo"....
>
>Splendid!  Now, how about some sample sentences to illustrate the usage
>of these words, and of the ending "-a^jo", in particular?

Well, I'll take a few of them, someone else want to take the rest?

Mi kantas en ^horo.		I sing in a choir.
Mi au'das e^hon.		I hear an echo.
Li legis la ^jurnalon.		He read the newspaper.
Mi ^jus au'dis e^hon.		I just heard an echo.
Lia edzino estas ^jaluza.	His wife is jealous.

About "-aj^o..."  It denotes a concrete thing that has the quality of or
is made of the root.

For instance:
mang^i = to eat.   The root is mang^-.  mang^aj^o = food.
paki = to pack.    The root is pak-.    pakaj^o = package.

Sample sentences:  Johano ac^etis mang^aj^on.
		   John bought food.
			Li ankau' ac^etis pakaj^on.
			He also bought a package.

In particular, when it follows the name of an animal, often it has the 
meaning of the flesh of that animal, used for food.

bovo = cow.	bovaj^o = beef.
porko = pig.	porkaj^o = pork.
fis^o = fish.	fis^aj^o = fish (as food).

Stefano mang^is bovaj^on, porkaj^on, kaj fis^aj^on.
Stephen ate beef, pork, and fish.

-- 
Keith K. Higa                         Lewis & Clark College    
higa@lclark.edu                       Portland, OR, USA
In a hierarchy each member tends to rise to his/her level of incompetence.
                                 --The Peter Principle
Newsgroups: alt.uu.lang.esperanto.misc,soc.culture.esperanto
From: pcj1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Pierre Jelenc)
Subject: Re: U`
Reply-To: pcj1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Pierre Jelenc)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 17:25:12 GMT

In article <1992Nov6.164638.16718@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> J.Theodore.Schuerzinger@dartmouth.edu (J. Theodore Schuerzinger) writes:
>I'm just starting to learn Esperanto, and I like the idea of
>introducing a 'word of the day' to the net.  I have a question, though,
>regarding something else.  I think I know how the letters c^, g^, h^,
>j^, and s^ are supposed to be pronounced, but what about u`?
>
>--Ted Schuerzinger
>email: .zed@Dartmouth.EDU
>"I should have realized it would be bad vodka when all the label said
>was 'Russian Vodka'."


Like "w" in English

Pierre

Pierre Jelenc                        pcj1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu 
                                    Columbia University, New York
Newsgroups: alt.uu.lang.esperanto.misc
From: etg10@cl.cam.ac.uk (Edmund Grimley-Evans)
Subject: Re: VORTO: mang^i  to eat
Organization: U of Cambridge Computer Lab, UK
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 13:53:52 GMT

|> How would one convey
|>                They are each eating an apple.
|> where each person has one apple and he or she is eating that apple?

There is a special particle "po" which can do this for you:

	Ili man^gas po unu pomon.

However there is no need for "po" in this case, as you could just say:

	^Ciu man^gas (unu) pomon.

In fact, it is quite possible to speak good Esperanto without ever using the word
"po", so a lot of introductory courses don't mention it at all.

|> There is, I believe, a form ci for the singular you, which is rarely
|> used, much as the french tu is only for nearest and dearest, animals,
|> &c.

Not a good comparison, since the French word "tu" is very frequently used,
whereas the Esperanto word "ci" is virtually never used.

The French use "tu" when speaking to friends, family, equals,...

The Esperanto word "ci" is used only

(a) in literature for a stylistic effect, sometimes when translating from a
language which has two forms and where the difference is crucial for the sense of
the text.

(b) in conversation and writing by a small group of Esperanto speakers, who seem
to be mostly French and linked to SAT.

If you want to compare Esperanto "ci" with a pronoun in another language, compare
it with English "thou", which, by coincidence, has a similar pattern of use:

(a) in literature for a stylistic effect, particularly when imitating the Bible.

(b) in conversation and writing by a small group of English speakers associated
with various religious groups. (The Quakers, if I remember correctly...)

=======================================================================
Edmund GRIMLEY EVANS                  Edmund.Grimley-Evans@cl.cam.ac.uk
=======================================================================
Newsgroups: alt.uu.lang.esperanto.misc
From: krys@dgim.doc.ca (Krystian Wirski)
Subject: Re: U`
Reply-To: krys@dgim.doc.ca
Organization: Communications Canada
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 92 20:56:12 GMT


In article 28786@lclark.edu, higa@lclark.edu (Keith Higa) writes:>

> .... The most common usage of u' is with "a", e.g. "hodiau'" (today) ....

"Hodiau'" is a new word for me.  Would somebody please show how to use it
with the sample sentences for "mang^i" or "ac^eti".  Specifically, is any
of the following three forms correct:

                 a)  Hodiau', mi ac^etis nau' pomojn;
                 b)  Mi ac^etis nau' pomojn hodiau';
                 c)  Mi ac^etis hodiau' nau' pomojn?

BTW, what are the Esperanto equivalents for "me", "you", "him", etc., as in:

                 "Hodiau'" estas la nova vorto por .... ?



                                                    Thanks




Newsgroups: alt.uu.lang.esperanto.misc
From: pcj1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Pierre Jelenc)
Subject: Re: U`
Reply-To: pcj1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Pierre Jelenc)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 19:53:36 GMT

In article <BxG3pH.LH5@cck.coventry.ac.uk> esz001@cck.coventry.ac.uk (Will Overington) writes:
>In article <1992Nov8.192914.16550@lclark.edu> higa@lclark.edu (Keith Higa) writes:
>>
>>j^ is a "zh" sound, like the "s" in "measure."
>>
>
>I am trying to learn a little Russian. I am at the alphabet!
>
>I think that the j^ sound is like that of the Russian letter with
>the six arms, like two K characters welded back to back.
>
>Is this from where Zamenhof got the sound?
>


Yes, from the slavic languages, and French.

C, C^, G^, H^ are clearly slavic as well.

Pierre

Pierre Jelenc                        pcj1@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu 
                                    Columbia University, New York
From: higa@lclark.edu (Keith Higa)
Newsgroups: alt.uu.lang.esperanto.misc
Subject: Re: U`
Date: 8 Nov 92 19:29:14 GMT
Organization: Lewis & Clark College, Portland OR

In article <1992Nov6.193258.27605@clark.dgim.doc.ca> krys@dgim.doc.ca writes:
>
>In article 16718@dartvax.dartmouth.edu, J.Theodore.Schuerzinger@dartmouth.edu (J. Theodore Schuerzinger) writes:>
>
>> .... I think I know how the letters c^, g^, h^, j^, and s^ are supposed to be
>> pronounced, but what about u`? ....
>
>I, in turn, would like to know about the h^ and the j^.  

h^ is a guttural sound like the German "ch."  Your tongue is like "k" but
you pass air through it.  The more your h^ sounds like an snore, the better.
It is a rare sound in Esperanto, however.

j^ is a "zh" sound, like the "s" in "measure."

>As for the others, is it true that:
>                   c^ in c^u is like ch in chew;
>                   g^ in g^i is like g  in gym;
>              and  s^ in s^i is like sh in she?

Correct!

-- 
Keith K. Higa                         Lewis & Clark College    
higa@lclark.edu                       Portland, OR, USA
In a hierarchy each member tends to rise to his/her level of incompetence.
                                 --The Peter Principle
From: higa@lclark.edu (Keith Higa)
Subject: Re: VORTO: mang^i  to eat
Organization: Lewis & Clark College, Portland OR
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 18:16:17 GMT

In article <1992Nov5.170513.13130@clark.dgim.doc.ca> krys@dgim.doc.ca writes:
>In article 4FJ@cck.coventry.ac.uk, esz001@cck.coventry.ac.uk (Will Overington) writes:>
>>mang^i is the verb "to eat".
>
>Does an infinitive always end with an "i"?

Always.

>> .... Mi mang^as pomon.
>>
>>I eat an apple.
>Would it be correct to say "Ili mang^as pomon" for "They eat an apple"?

>> .... S^i mang^is kvar pomojn.
>>
>>She ate four apples.
>Again, would it be correct to say "Ili mang^is kvar pomojn"?

>> .... C^u vi mang^os du pomojn?
>>
>>Will you eat two apples?
>And how about "C^u ili mang^os du pomojn"?

The answer to all three is yes.  Esperanto verbs do not change by number or
person, just by tense and mood.  That's the beauty of them.

>Is "vi" singular, or plural?  What is the other?

Both...you can use "vi" as you would use "you" in English; to one person  or
to a group.




-- 
Keith K. Higa                         Lewis & Clark College    
higa@lclark.edu                       Portland, OR, USA
In a hierarchy each member tends to rise to his/her level of incompetence.
                                 --The Peter Principle
Xref: sparky alt.uu.lang.esperanto.misc:50 soc.culture.esperanto:2069
From: J.Theodore.Schuerzinger@dartmouth.edu (J. Theodore Schuerzinger)
Newsgroups: alt.uu.lang.esperanto.misc,soc.culture.esperanto
Subject: More on Esperanto pronounciation
Date: 10 Nov 92 17:31:03 GMT
Article-I.D.: dartvax.1992Nov10.173103.4036
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
X-Posted-From: InterNews1.0a5@newshost.dartmouth.edu

A few more questions about Esperanto pronounciation for those of you
who are more linguistically inclined:

1. How exactly is the 'r' supposed to be pronounced?  As in American
English, with no trill, or as in most European languages, with a roll? 
Or is it even as in Russian, where the r is "flapped"?  These three
variations on the letter r differ significantly?

2. What about letters like p, t, and d?  In English, they're aspirated
(although not as much as in a language like German), while in Russian
they're not.  (By the way -- I've read that it's worse in Hindi -- in
Hindi there are in many cases separate letters representing the
aspirated and unaspirated consonants.)

3. Is there any vowel reduction in Esperanto?  That is, can you end up
with a vowel sound like the 'schwa' -- the a in 'about', the i in
'pencil', the o in 'lemon', etc.?

I already know there are many tapes in Esperanto available from ELNA,
so you don't have to suggest I get a tape from them.  I've already sent
away for a catalog and fully expect to buy some cassettes and/or books
when I get my catalog.

--Ted Schuerzinger
email: .zed@Dartmouth.EDU
"I should have realized it would be bad vodka when all the label said
was 'Russian Vodka'."
Newsgroups: alt.uu.lang.esperanto.misc
From: jardar@swix.ifi.unit.no (Jardar Eggesboe Abrahamsen)
Subject: Re: U`
Organization: University of Trondheim, Norway
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 92 18:22:28 GMT

In article <1992Nov9.162223.21932@infodev.cam.ac.uk> etg10@cl.cam.ac.uk (Edmund Grimley-Evans) writes:
>|> I think that the j^ sound is like that of the Russian letter with
>|> the six arms, like two K characters welded back to back.
>|> 
>|> Is this from where Zamenhof got the sound?
>
>I'm not sure precisely what this question means, however I suppose the answer is
>no, because Esperanto words containing ^J are more frequently derived from the
>French than from the Russian, and ^J is the way the letter J is pronounced in
>French. Certainly the choice of the symbol ^J to denote the sound seems to show
>French rather than Russian influence.

And did you know that the Kurdish (Latin) alphabet has this same letter
for the same sound? (However I doubt that Zamenhof knew Kurdish.)

-- 
Jardar Eggesboe Abrahamsen            "Ili rigardis min kiel sian
jardar@swix.ifi.unit.no                moralan chefon."
                                                       (L.L. Zamenhof)
Newsgroups: alt.uu.lang.esperanto.misc
From: esz001@cck.coventry.ac.uk (Will Overington)
Subject: Re: VORTO: mang^i  to eat
Organization: Coventry University
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 10:38:01 GMT

In article <1992Nov5.181617.24989@lclark.edu> higa@lclark.edu (Keith Higa) writes:
>In article <1992Nov5.170513.13130@clark.dgim.doc.ca> krys@dgim.doc.ca writes:
>>In article 4FJ@cck.coventry.ac.uk, esz001@cck.coventry.ac.uk (Will Overington) writes:>
>>>mang^i is the verb "to eat".
>>
>>Does an infinitive always end with an "i"?
>
>Always.
>
>>> .... Mi mang^as pomon.
>>>
>>>I eat an apple.
>>Would it be correct to say "Ili mang^as pomon" for "They eat an apple"?
>
>>> .... S^i mang^is kvar pomojn.
>>>
>>>She ate four apples.
>>Again, would it be correct to say "Ili mang^is kvar pomojn"?
>
>>> .... C^u vi mang^os du pomojn?
>>>
>>>Will you eat two apples?
>>And how about "C^u ili mang^os du pomojn"?
>
>The answer to all three is yes.  Esperanto verbs do not change by number or
>person, just by tense and mood.  That's the beauty of them.

I agree with the above.
However, with
               Ili mang^as pomon.
this means, I feel, two or more people eating one apple, shared between them.

How would one convey
               They are each eating an apple.
where each person has one apple and he or she is eating that apple?
>
>>Is "vi" singular, or plural?  What is the other?
>
>Both...you can use "vi" as you would use "you" in English; to one person  or
>to a group.
>

This is correct.
There is, I believe, a form ci for the singular you, which is rarely
used, much as the french tu is only for nearest and dearest, animals,
&c.

Newsgroups: alt.uu.lang.esperanto.misc
From: krys@dgim.doc.ca (Krystian Wirski)
Subject: Re: U`
Reply-To: krys@dgim.doc.ca
Organization: Communications Canada
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 92 18:29:29 GMT




In article 28261@lclark.edu, higa@lclark.edu (Keith Higa) writes:>



> .... Mi kantas en ^horo.      I sing in a choir.
> Mi au'das e^hon.		I hear an echo.
> Li legis la ^jurnalon.	He read the newspaper.
> Mi ^jus au'dis e^hon.		I just heard an echo ....

Are the following sentences correct?

Mi kantas en la ^horo.          I sing in the choir.
Mi au'das la e^hon.             I hear the echo.
Li legis ^jurnalon.             He read a newspaper.
Mi ^jus au'dis la e^hon         I just heard the echo.


> .... Lia edzino estas ^jaluza.	His wife is jealous ....

Is the following correct?

       ^Sia edzo estas ^jaluza.         Her husband is jealous.

And is there such a thing as "geedzoj" for "married couples"?


> .... About "-aj^o..."  It denotes a concrete thing that has the 
> quality of or is made of the root.
>
> For instance:
> mang^i = to eat.   The root is mang^-.  mang^aj^o = food.
> paki = to pack.    The root is pak-.    pakaj^o = package ....

Since 

  lerni = to learn,  the root beeing lern-,

is it, therefore, true that

  lernaj^o = curriculum?


                                                   Thanks,

                                                    Krys



Newsgroups: alt.uu.lang.esperanto.misc