From: gil@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au (Gil Hardwick)
Newsgroups: sci.environment
Subject: Historic levels of methane by bison (was Re: Perot ad
Distribution: world
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 92 05:09:10 GMT
Organization: STAFF STRATEGIES - Anthropologists & Training Agents


In article <7NOV199221583995@pearl.tufts.edu> ddeocamp@pearl.tufts.edu writes:

 > I am really surprised by that comment.  I can't speak for others, but, while I
 > try to keep my arguments coherent and based on known fact, I have never hedged
 > in this forum or any other.  My primary motivation in environmentalism is
 > protection of life and support of life-affirming activities.  This often leads
 > to conflict, particularly in a western industrial nation, but I have been
 > participating here, and (I hope) have never strayed from that vision.

I think the difficulty here is in recognising other people accepted as
part of the discourse, rather than as someone else . . .

 > I am quite glad that Internet is international and people around the world can
 > see Americans discussing this issue.  Much of this is insulting, both to
 > Americans and people of other nations, but it is an accurate representation of
 > the problems in this country and how far we have to go.  Additionally, I don't
 > want any other countries trusting our government until it is trustworthy. 
 > International pressure can be a powerful tool in changing policy.

Well, that's a relief.

 > An honest look at America, and even this forum, will show you that America
 > cannot speak with a single voice.  While this is inconvenient and difficult,
 > the principle of free speech necessitates it.  Please don't take this to be an
 > argument in support of the heinous and murderous practices done and supported
 > by US government and corperations in the past, but it is unacceptable to
 >  "reign in" any of the idiots here.  Often, I wish it could be done, but many 
 > of these "idiots" wish the same of me and others.

Perhaps I have again been in error for not having clarified my intent.
I have no criticism of the principle of free speech, only that such
unrestrained and undisciplined "free speech" merely generates so much
noise about nothing at all. Some balance in the ratio of noise/insults
to intelligent/thoughtful discussion would help . . .

 > You don't have a good understanding of America.  While I agree that we have
 > collectively destroyed our credibility, you cannot deny the legitimacy of
 > grassroots activism, honest education, and intrepid scientific investigation 
 > in America.

No I don't. I have to keep probing and fishing to locate it, which is
perhaps symptomatic of the problem.

 > My first instinct to an attack like yours is to remain silent, because you
 > raise many important issues that we Americans _must_ confront if we are to
 > become democratic partners in the global community.  I must take issue with
 > your claims, though, because there are many people in this country busting
 > their butts to change things, and their sweat and blood are not being
 > recognized here.

That is a pity if it is the case. I wonder how your lot would improve
by access to reliable information on what the reality is out here? It is
knowledge which is power, not political clout. Facts have a compelling
way of embarrassing people provided your "freedom of speech" is more
than a token courtesy to the populace . . .

 > >Most of us just want go it alone on our own patch, thank you very much,
 > >where we only have to argue against our own local opposition instead of
 > >the entire US military/industrial complex.
 >  
 > I agree wholeheartedly, and very firmly oppose the classicly American
 > interventionist mindset.  But, given the environmental crisis caused by, among
 > other things, western "progress", how are we to address the fact that most
 > non-western states are trying to follow a similar path to an industrial
 > society (many without democracy)?

Are they *trying to* or is it simply the fact that they are being
*forced to* by IMF and World Bank policies influenced by "First World"
industrial priorities? Let me commend as an example:

        Rogers B.  1976
        White Wealth and Black Poverty: American Investments in
           Southern Africa
        Studies in Human Rights 2
        Westport, Connecticut: Greenwood Press

The US is free *not* to do business with totalitarian dictators, but
that has not been the trend over the past two generations. Even your
old pal Saddam Hussein turned out to be an embarrassment . . .

--
Gil Hardwick                                      gil@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au
Independent Consulting Ethnologist                            3:690/660.6
PERTH, Western Australia                                 (+61 9) 399 2401
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