From: J.Hale@latrobe.edu.au
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Why we suffer.
Date: 17 Apr 92 02:30:48 GMT
Organization: VAX Cluster, Computer Centre, La Trobe University

In article <Apr.15.04.22.45.1992.4483@dumas.rutgers.edu>, 
	marquada@nextwork.rose-hulman.edu (David A Marquam) writes:
> 
>   Where does the Bible suggest that only those with the "proper" 
> faith can survive in heaven?  Once we are in heaven, we are there to stay.   
> There are no dangers that will cause us to fall away from Him.  The Bible  
> says that "once we have tasted of the good life, we cannot fall back."  
> Heaven is a place of refuge, a place where there is no pain or suffering.   
> We currently are living in Satan's realm--earth.  We live here in an  
> on-going test to see whether we are worthy to reign with God eternally.   
> We are given tests and temptations to allow us to show our loyalty to God.
> 
God is indeed in Heaven and there is no change or chance to fall there, else
would it be not Heaven. I agree that earth is certainly not God's domain, but
some would argue that it is as it is God created. I mention this only as you 
seem to have quoted something from the bible to help your arguement. This
is not very effective as a tool for argument about anything except quotes
from the bible. ;-)
The use of a SATAN as an out is just another way of avoiding responsibility.
No, I didn't do it, satan made me!! While I acknowledge that some may indeed
believe this, I suggest that they are protecting themselves from the guilt
that would become manifest had they accepted responsibility.
   In 1 Cor. it says that "God is faithful, He will not tempt man beyond  
> what he can bear."  Everything that we undergo is a test that God has  
> allowed Satan to place on us.  We can overcome anything if we believe and  
> put our 100% faith in Him.  By overcomming the day to day trials we incur,  
> we prove that we are worthy to be with Jesus.
Hey, God made us. He is our Father. He does not need to prove anything, just as
we don't have to prove anything. That's all a con. Another cop out. Can you
honestly beleive that a loving Father would tempt and torture His children
just so they could prove time and time again that they are worthy of His love.
No the shoe is on the other foot. We are constantly trying to prove to God
that we are worthy of Him lest He strike us down. Talk about fools. And rather
than admit it is our doing, this trial by suffering, we blame it all on God, 
saying He said we need to prove ourselves. Now that is what I call denial!
When I look back to the quote from 1 Cor I am reminded how it is so easy
to misconstrue what is in the bible if you take it as a literal word of God.

>    There are 3 basic forces that interact here on earth.  They are God,  
> Satan, and what can be considered as "chance."  God does not personally  
> tempt us or put disasters in our lives.  God is not capable of doing evil.   
Well I don't know about the 3 basic forces, but I certainly agree that God 
has nothing to do with anything here. 
> He allows Satan to inflict us, but only to a certain degree--as was the  
> case with Job.  Satan asked God if he could tempt Job, and God agreed.  He  
> allowed him to do anything but kill him.  He took away his family, his  
> possessions, his home--everything he owned.  Even though he had nothing  
> physically left, Job had a faith that outstood anything else.  He still  
> remained loyal to God and his cause.
Again, do you really think a loving Father would behave in this way? And as
for Job, are you suggesting that it really took place? Do you not see that
it is a simple work of fiction designed to give a message to its readers? And
no I am not saying anything about the message, simply that it is presented
in a fictional not factual story.  
>    Now we see how God and Satan are involved in our lives, but what about  
> chance?
Are the last great scapegoat. Chance. Luck. Etc Etc.
Bullshit! Sorry if I offend but it just has to be said. Chance and satan are
the same thing. Figments of our imagination. Everything that happens [no 
exceptions] to us is [at some level, rarely conscious] exactly what we ask for.
>   There are certain events that happen here on earth that are  
> neither derived from God or Satan.  
Nothing happens here from God. By this I mean He doesn't take a hand and
intervene here or there. We can call on His strength and in that knowledge
know we are safe but that is not the same as thinking or beleiving He reaches
down and does such and such for us, [but not some one else;-)]. Again it is us
trying to avoid responsibility and so we look for our scapegoats. God [well, 
mainly for the good things, but also for some bad things if they fit in with
our guilt at the time], Satan for the things WE do that don't fit in with
what WE think WE should do, and last but not least, CHANCE for all those times
when we can't make up our mind.
> There are things that just happen in  
> the course of our lives that are neutral.  
Ahh, now we're getting there. Everything we perceive here is neutral. You got 
it! Its what WE put on it that gives it its value, label [judgement!!].
>This may be where deaths come  
> into play.  It is "God's will that all should come to repentance and that  
> none should fall away."  God does not want us to perish, in fact, his will  
> for each of us is to live in heaven eternally with him.  It just so  
> happens that people decide not to follow His will or His plan for their  
> lives and they take their destiny into their own hands.  This is a  
> guaranteed way to perish--to leave God's will.  
Good. So often people talk about things in a physical way. Yes, to perish, to
endure hell is simply to be blocked to God's Will. I say blocked because I don't
beleive you can leave it. I am not more powerful than God. His Will is my will 
if I recognise it, but if I don't then to me it is as if I have lost it. I
haven't though, I just stopped looking in the right place so to speak.
> Some Christians are  
> blessed and are allowed
                  ^^^^^^^ Yes, but only if you realise that it is you yourself
that gives you permission or not. To the Father ALL are blessed for all are
His creation.
> to reign with Him earlier than others.  We should  
> not be distressed about this, rather we should rejoice that they have went  
> to a place of perfection. 
But yes, some seem different in time. Some seem closer to the Father than 
others and seem able to share that closeness with those who feel less
close. They are God's teachers. They are our brothers.


In Christ,


James
_____________________________________________________________________________
James Hale     			Lincoln School of Health Sciences
Computing Unit			La Trobe University,Bundoora, AUSTRALIA
                                
James.Hale@Latrobe.Edu.Au
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"The grace of God rests gently on forgiving eyes,
and everything they look on speaks of Him to the beholder.
He can see no evil, nothing in the world to fear,
and no one who is different from himself."
						Text, P 418
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