From: faris@sarcasm.trl.OZ.AU (Aziz Faris)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon
Subject: Re: Representatives on Lebanon
Date: 15 Nov 92 21:39:16 GMT
Reply-To: a.Faris@trl.oz.au
Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne,Australia

In article <1992Nov13.163256.11549@ulrik.uio.no>, eliedw@hedda.uio.no (Elie Dib Wardini) writes:
|> 
|> Aziz the name Phoenician is a Greek invention. Not native! Yes the inhabitants
|> of Ugarit had a cannanite religion. Whether their language on the other hand is
|> canaanite is a controversial issue (actually veruy controvertial!) Some do say
|> it is canaanite and I sort of agree.

Elie, the texts from Ugarit undicate the following:
1. The language used there is very close to the Pheonician language of Sidon,
Tyre, and Byblos. It is also close to the Hebrew language, and it was written
using Alphabets.
2. The religion was Pheonician with some Canaanite elements in it as evidenced
by the texts from Ebla which is about 60 Km East of Ugarit. The religious
texts substantiated the story of Philo about the religion that the Pheonicians
have practiced as written by the Pheonician Preist Sanchathuthian (spelling?.)
3. Through these texts, Bilblical scholars have come to agree on the origins
of the Judeo-Christian beleifs and they beleive that they originated with the
Pheonicians. The texts of Ebla also shed knowledge as to the source of beleif
that the Ugarit texts have transmitted. Ebla was a Canaanite Empire that dates
to 2500BC, and its Language is know as Nort-West dialect of the ancient
Canaanite language.
|> 
|> 
|> Here Aziz, I feel that you take muc for granted and that you have soe circular
|> argumentation:
|> 
|> eg. we have te same culture
|>     we are the same people
|> 
|> two controversial issues, and many terms to define.
|> 
|> I don't understand what you mean with personality fashions, but if you meant
|> that Lebanese/Canaanites/Phoenicians considered themselves as one people with
|> the Arameans and Israelites etc. I would contend that you are wrong, plus we
|> know very little of what these people feelt and how they identified themselves.
|> Some say that the inhabiatnts of Ugarit did not consider themselves as
|> Canaanite (I will find you the source).

The Ugarit texts as I said above indicate that their culture and religion was
over 90% Pheonician with some elements of Canaanite culture and religion.

|> 
|> Very Wrong! sorry. Canaanie comprise Israel and Lebanon. Damascus was never
|> considered as part of Canaan, but the capital of Aram.

The texts of Ebla indicate that the Canaanites have occupied the entire area
from North Syria to Palestine including Lebanon. The Arameans occupied the mid-
regions of Syria including damascus and the southern regions and possibly
some parts of present day Jordan. The Canaanites may have also occupied parts
of Iraq as evidenced by the tablets of Ebla. Also the Arameans which are also
related to the Amorites (Hammurabi is an Amorite) only appeared around 1800 BC.
The Canaanites date to 2500 BC and earlier.
 
|> 
|> The term Phoenician is Greek. No eveidence f it in Ugarit. That the Canaanites
|> who (contrary to the ISraelites) who lived in Lebanon (from Akko to Arwad) and
|> called Pheonicians by the Greeks came from the Persian Gulf is based on two or
|> three passages from Herodotus. Whether this is in fact true, is again open to
|> much discussion.

Again based on some translated Egyptian texts that account a discussion between
a representitive of the king of Egypt and the king of Byblos, the Egyptians
referred to them as Finkh as translated. I do not know if this is Greek, the
tablet dates to about 1100 BC. In that same texts they refer to the crew of the
merchant ships as Syrian (perhaps it is translated), 
|> 
|> >
|> >Also the kingdom of Byblos which is located near Tripoli included a large 
|> >territory that is located in Syria. 
|> 
|> Which Syria? the Syria of your definition? or Syria = Aram? beware of circular
|> argumentation.

It would be part of present day Syria and Pheonicia of the past. Remember, the
Pheonician kingdoms stretched along the coast from Jaffa in Palsetine to parts
of present day Turkey. The Pheonicians are beleived to come from the Pesian
Gulf based on Herodotus, archeological evidence at Byblos have revealed
that there was an ealier non-Pheonican culture there. Also excavations in
Palestine near the dead sea have revealed Pheonician artifacts and it is
beleived they migrated through the Negev and Palestine.

|> 
|> Can you tell me which Egyptian texts? I am not aware of the name Syria beng
|> used in Egyptian texts. But if you are reading translations, learn that the
|> word Aram (and sometimes areas outside of Aram, as Lebanon for example) are
|> termed Syria by the translators (English) and the term does not occur in the
|> original. eg. every occurence of the term Syria in the english Bible is
|> translated from the wrod Aram.

I am not sure about this, however, Aram does not share a border with the sea
and it makes be suspicious that a crew of a ship would be Arameans as indicated
by the text.
|> 
|> 
|> 
|> Aziz, Jesus once said: from their fruits you will know them!
|> 
|> It is Hafez al Assad who at every occassion says that Lebanon is part of Syria
|> (note one of Boudi's favorite quotes!  Kiifak Boudi?).

Some one has posted me some of those quotes. I do not know in which context
they were quoted. One of them said that every inch of Lebanon is an inch of
Syria, historically and geographically. let me address this one:

Lebanon is in a state of chaos and under threat from Israel, perhaps he meant
that Lebanon will be defended as if it were Syria, remember Syrian troops died
during the Israeli invasion of 1982, and many Syrians and Lebanese who are
Syrian Nationals have died by bombing Israeli troops similar to what Hizbollah
is doing in the South. The historical and Geographic references, could be
explained by party ideals, rememeber their are lots of Lebanese who are Syrian
nationals who say that also. This is my interpretation without seeing the entire
speach. Remember also, if it wasn't for these acts against the Israelis', they
may not have withdrawn.

|> 
|> It is Hafez al-Assad who refuses to withdraw from Lebanon, it is Hafez al-Assad
|> who interferes in every single thing in Lebanese internal or external affairs.
|> 
|> Israeli propaganda, tell how do they get te man to act occordingly!

|> elie wardini

Elie with all due respect I cannot comment on this one. Over the past weeks
some of you indicate that Syria should withdraw, others have been arguing
against it. I do not know the cricumstances that are keeping Syrian forces in
Lebanon. My interest in these discussions is to point out that we are one people
that are facing great odds. We Syrians have lost the Golan height for ever,
please keep up the pressure on the west so that you do not lose south Lebanon.
The Golan and South Lebanon are very special, even Farouz sang about them.

Aziz
Newsgroups: soc.culture.lebanon