HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: johnm@cajal.uoregon.edu (John Martin)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud,rec.games.mud.tiny
Subject: Re: Conference on Player's Rights
Date: 6 Jan 1993 19:33:45 GMT
Organization: Institute of Neuroscience, University of Oregon
Distribution: world
Reply-To: johnm@cajal.uoregon.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: cajal.uoregon.edu

In article <1993Jan6.185015.1375@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca>, kinsman@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca (Aphoriel/Kinsman) writes:

>I do have a suggestion, though.  Points may come up during the conference
>which I might wish to comment on, those points not having been made during
>personal conversations with my own gods and wizards.  Would it not be
>simple and inobtrusive programming to give each of the (likely numerous)
>spectators a like/dislike buzzer?

Oooooh, I *like* this idea, yes! In addition, may I suggest another thing?
If any players have specific concerns/issue they would like addressed, please
feel free to mail them to me. I will then summarize these letters, and make
the summaries available to the admins. (I'll make the entire text of the letters
available, too, but a summary is more likely to actually get read...)

-- 
John Martin                                        johnm@cajal.uoregon.edu
Institute of Neuroscience,   University of Oregon,    Eugene, OR,    97402
Xref: sparky rec.games.mud:9186 rec.games.mud.tiny:1230 rec.games.mud.misc:1808
From: xibo@fido.econ.arizona.edu (Mr. Coates)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud,rec.games.mud.tiny,rec.games.mud.misc
Subject: Re: God Conference on Player's Rights
Date: 7 Jan 93 09:56:53 GMT
Organization: Xibological Perimeter


Players have no rights!  None!

This debate appears from time to time because certain players feel
wronged.  They never can see things from the administrators' (Gods?  PLEASE.)
point of view.

The admins provide a machine to run the mud on.  They frequently supply
also the mud code, a starting db, and some even maintain the mud.  Some
admins even act as police/judges!

But this does not mean that players have any rights.  The admin can shut
down the mud at any time, delete it, change, or even paint it blue.  To
say otherwise would mean that some total stranger can walk onto the mud
and claim some of the admin's hardware as his own property.  People don't
have the right to take your car away if you give them a ride; they don't
have the right to take your computer away if you let them mud on it.

The administrator's word is FINAL.



Xibo (#1 at (EVIL!)Mud -- fido.econ.arizona.edu 4201)
From: cwilder@eis.calstate.edu (Charlotte Wilder)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.misc
Subject: MUDs
Date: 7 Jan 93 06:21:15 GMT
Organization: Calif State Univ/Electronic Information Services

IMHO the best MUD out there is LPmud, but even then, LPmud has much to
be desired, since it is so damn slow.  Of course, other MUD systems out
there have their own pros and cons vs. LPmud, but in the field of
customability, LPmud wis hands down (what most mudders like, custom
MUDs).  Now... if someone could speed up LPmud by like 10x then it
might actually be worth running one... *sigh*
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.misc
Subject: VAX/VMS MultiNet Client for TinyMUDs
From: marshall@brandonu.ca (Edward S. Marshall)
Date: 6 Jan 93 15:58:26 CST
Organization: Brandon University, Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

Hi!

Ok, I know this has probably been asked a hundred or so times already, but...

Here's what I need: a client for a VAX/VMS system with MultiNet.  Telnet is
fine, but a few features would be nice.  A wide variety of use would be nice
(i.e. anything from Tiny to LP) but I'll settle for Tiny...raw Telnet is ok for
LP and Diku.  Any help you could give me would be appreciated.  (BTW, I'm not
too hot at compiling, etc., so a pre-compiled version that'll work right after
I FTP it would be fantastic!)

-- 
Who:                                                                     Where:
Edward S. Marshall                                         marshall@brandonu.ca
Maelstrom WindWatcher                               Frontier/Abacus Nuclear War
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                     "What you don't know can't hurt me!"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.misc
From: mphall@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Michael Hall)
Subject: help with finding a client
Summary: need one that won't tramp on my input when something happens 
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 05:00:22 GMT

	Sorry.  This skirts on faq, but it isn't in the faq.

	I need to get a client that won't do like Tinytalk does and stop
allowing me to type whatever it is I'm typing when someone says
something or whatever.  I'm working at 1200 baud right now, and the
delay is driving me mad.  

	Any help appreciated.  Any abuse will probably not penetrate my
numbed senses.

	Mike
-- 
	     If you want the corn, you go get the corn. 
	            If you want the boy, you say
		       "Boy, go get the corn."
                   mphall@silver.ucs.indiana.edu
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.misc,rec.games.mud.tiny
From: scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Kelly Martin)
Subject: Re: Intellectual Property Rights
Reply-To: scg@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Organization: Gender Anarchists United
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 14:33:25 GMT

mwcallah%peruvian.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Michael Callahan) writes:

>All this discussion of player's rights has made me curious.  Do
>players on muds(and programmers in general) have any intellectual
>property rights?

Programmers do, in general.  Whether or not MUD players are
programmers is debatable.

>For instance, If I write a program and copywrite it, do I own it?

Yes.  But see below.

>How about if that program is a zone written in lpc, or an object
>created on a MUSH?

Matters not what you wrote; anything you write is yours, subject to
contractual agreement.

>Would anyone be able to just look at my code?

Only if you allow them.

>Anyone out there know enough about intellectual property rights to
>answer these sorts of questions?  The implications to mu* seem
>obvious.  After all, about everything that goes on in a mud depends
>on the creativity of it's users, wheather they be gods, wizzes,
>players, or whatever.

One can argue that you are doing work-for-hire (or something similar)
when you code on a MUD; this means that the code could potentially
belong to your "employer".  Also, if you are a student at a
university, and use their equipment, odds are the UNIVERSITY has the
legal ownership of the code you write (most universities have a policy
that anything a student creates using university facilities belongs to
them).

--
There is no USENET death penalty. John Palmer's continued presence among us is
proof of that.
		-- Evan Leibovitch (evan@telly.on.ca), in news.groups
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.misc,rec.games.mud.tiny
From: jgm@ais.org (jim miller)
Subject: Re: God Conference on Player's Rights
Organization: Ann Arbor Information Society -- Toledo Annex
Distribution: rec.games.mud, rec.games.mud.lp, rec.games.mud.misc
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 07:38:38 GMT



kinsman@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca (Aphoriel/Kinsman) writes:

>In article <C0GHpJ.M5M@ais.org> jgm@ais.org (jim miller) writes:
>>This is supposed to be a universal statement of ethical policy?  Everyone
>>who wants to must have an equal voice.  Mud maintainers have not been
>>endowed with the right to be our delegates in this matter, just because
>>they ftp'ed some files and let us access some ports on their machines.
>>
>
>Dd
>Someone needs to be delegates, otherwise this conference would become
>unwieldly.  A whole slew of people with an equal voice becomes chaos
>in they are all put in the same place.  This conference needs to be organized
>to be effective, and to be organized authority is required.  Mud maintainers
>seem to have been selected as default authority figures.  I think it is a
>reasonable choice: they do perform a good deal of work to produce and maintain
>a MUD (you are glossing over their efforts with your remark about ftp and 
>port access) and would be in the best position to note and deal with matters
>of human rights enforcment and violation.


Your project is already self-defeating.  You desire to bring maintainers
to recognize a set of ethical standards which are, in effect, curbs
on their behavior, and you plan to bring this about in a forum where
that small, juxtaposed group holds the parliamentary power.

You see already in this thread responses from several mud maintainers,
and in them, the pathology of the problem that you're trying to
solve.  Many of them think they can do what they damn well please,
and will continue to hold this comfortable belief, scoffing at
your attempts as impractical, or unimplementable, or unnecessary,
or inconvenient, or, the best one of all, without right.  That
word again.  You simply cannot produce a forceful document that is
influenced by the type of established "party line" of maintainers
who post to this newsgroup, and that's almost certainly what you're
going to get.

Throw it out to the public.  This is essentially a people's
fight.  Let it be discussed and reworked in the open over a
period of time.  Let the maintainers from whom you've gathered
support air their views here (which you are correct to point
out they are already doing).  Let no one's views be summarized
or paraphrased or filtered by members of this one particular
group.

-jim

-- 
* My 3 rules for meeting women *
1.  Seek simple women with common sense and a capacity for commitment.
2.  Stay away from women entangled in *any* way with another man.  Apply
    the word "entangle" broadly, and don't let them fool you.
Xref: sparky rec.games.mud.misc:1784 rec.games.mud.tiny:1212
From: pariah@tartarus.uwa.edu.au (Michael Malone)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.misc
Subject: Re: What is MudOS?
Date: 7 Jan 1993 07:24:06 GMT
Organization: The University of Western Australia
NNTP-Posting-Host: tartarus.uwa.edu.au

cptully@med.unc.edu (Christopher P. Tully,Pathology,62699) writes:

>Well, this is probably a FAQ, if, please tell me where tro look and I'l
>shutup.

>What is mudOS?

Nope its not in the faq. There seems to be very little lp in the
faq.

Mudos is the "mud operating system" (honest, thats what they called
it!) It arose around version 3.0.50 of Lars' lpmud, when a group
of yanks got together and made a decided to make a "standard" super
duper mud. Originally, it was intended that coders from all around
the world would work hard together and a single driver would be
produced. Somewhere along the line, the CD people didnt get involved,
(too elitist), amylaar just watched (too independant), the discworld
driver spun off (too psychodelic), and a number of others continued
to work on their own (too pigheaded). The result is at least 6
drastically different drivers, each with a number of mudlibs available.
So much for a standard!

Mudos is now probably the most widely used of the drivers available.
Largely because the people developing it is are so annoyingly
enthusiastic!

Hope that helps
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.misc,rec.games.mud.tiny
From: tuff@ellis.uchicago.edu (Geoff Tuffli)
Subject: Re: God Conference on Player's Rights
Reply-To: tuff@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 21:28:52 GMT

In article beeman@cats.ucsc.edu (Adam Beeman) writes:
>
>This viewpoint is strongly biased towards the admin who owns the mud account,
>etc., and in this case, the admin has no obligation to give the players any
>rights at all!  However, there may be, in the future, more "community-owned"
>muds, where the "one admin who owns the mud and has the final say" isn't the
>case.  Also there is the fact that a set of "rights" can make the mud much
>more appealing to players.
>
>As an admin, I would be very apprehensive about such a "bill of rights" until
>I know how hard to support it will be.  If it dictates a million ways to
>take up my time enforcing these rights, etc, then I am inclined to say no to
>it.  However, I am interested in what sort of document will be drafted, in
>a way it reminds me of a virtual Constitutional Convention, so I may attend...

A couple of comments, if I may. The fact is, as repeatedly stated, that
players have to rights. No question about that. However, this does not mean
that an admin cannot do something which is, if nothing else, unethical. It
may be perfectly legal and within that admin's rights, but it can still be
wrong.

One of the purposes of the Architect system, as opposed to the traditional
God-Wizard-(Royalty) system was to, in fact, create a specified, written-out
"government" for the administration. There are types of MUSHs where dictatorial
control is, in my opinion, desired and efficient. There are also types of
MUSHs where it is not.

I'm very interested in what this meeting will produce. Such a document could
well cover all types of administration, from dictatorship to democracy to
archictectship. While probably not binding in any real sense of the word, it
might give players out there an idea of what to expect on some MUSHs (and
MUCKs and the like.)

		Geoff Tuffli
		The Green Griffin

Lakar@PernMUSH		Shaav@Belgariad1	Lorm@TaeisMUSH
Gram@DuneMUSH		Colby@Belgariad2	Gaerdon@Mua'kaar
Garam@Dragon's Dawn	Nerassh'tan@Rhostshyl	Lavan-5@ParanoiaMUSH
Khyron@RobotechMUSH	Huad@Twilight		Celon@ValdemarMUSH

Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.misc
From: iwoehr@nyx.cs.du.edu (Ivan Woehr)
Subject: Xanth Mud Builders Wanted
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix (sponsored by U. of Denver Math/CS dept.)
Disclaimer1: Nyx is a public access Unix system run by the University of
Disclaimer2: Denver for the Denver community.  The University has neither
Disclaimer3: control over nor responsibility for the opinions of users.
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 93 01:59:15 GMT


	I lost my list because of acount problems and I need some
builders for a Xanth Mud... Here are the requirements:

Knowledge of the Xanth Series (read the books)
Plenty Knowledge of Muds, hopefully programming in LPMud

NOt required but would be nice:
Visual Guide to Xanth
MudOS Programming Experience

	Reply to me if you follow the above requirements! I want thisMud
to be as accurate and as fun as the book series!!

	-Ivan Woehr 

		Demon
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.misc,rec.games.mud.tiny
From: jwtlai@jeeves.uwaterloo.ca (Jim W "GrimJim" Lai)
Subject: Re: God Conference on Player's Rights
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1993 23:35:09 GMT

In article <1993Jan8.223729.4849@midway.uchicago.edu> tuff@midway.uchicago.edu writes:
>In article drevreck@colargol.edb.tih.no (Lars Syrstad) writes:
>>When running a mud, I would reserve myself the right to decide both
>>what legal AND what ethical rules that apply in the virtual world.

>What this conference is trying to do, or so I understood when I read the
>proposal, was to determine player and admin ethical rights, NOT character
>ethical rights.

Indeed.  Characters, being fictional creations, have no ethical rights, no more
than the characters in a chintz romance novel.  They're not real.  :)

Of course, this raises a practical point: If a character is being socially
obnoxious in-context, other characters are allowed to react in-context
appropriately.  For example, if a patron of a fine virtual establishment is
rude and disruptive in-context, then said patron should not surprised when
they are summarily removed from the premises.  This cannot be considered abuse
by definition, for this is roleplay.

Now, suppose an admin roleplays a character capable of exhibiting the control
that he or she is capable of (e.g. booting players off their connections
summarily).  Such so-called "abuse" can be justified in terms of roleplaying.
At which point, if one does not like the game, one can leave, just as one can
leave a gaming group in real life.

However, since all admin character can claim to be roleplaying, normal player
characters are at their mercy and have no innate ethical rights.  This effect
is the same as that of players themselves having no such ethical rights when
playing.  This of course leads to the conclusion that players effectively have
no rights when playing on MUDs.  QED.  How depressing.  :)  I guess there's
nothing more for me to say on the issue.  Hm.
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.misc,rec.games.mud.tiny
From: dvandom@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Dave Van Domelen)
Subject: Re: God Conference on Player's Rights
Organization: The Ohio State University
Distribution: rec.games.mud, rec.games.mud.lp, rec.games.mud.misc
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 19:44:55 GMT

In interest of equal representation of MU*s, I'd say that only the highest 
echelon of each one be part of the main meeting.  After all, if all the 
TrekMUSE wizards descended on the conference, the document would have a decided
Trek slant (biased to the kind of treatment we are used to there is what I 
mean).  Some MU*s have only a few wizards, some have a few score wizzes and 
then a few gods or directors to actually run things.
     Dave Van Domelen, Robert's Rules of Order anyone?
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.misc
From: chuong@ecf.toronto.edu (CHUONG HAN HSING)
Subject: Imperial Diku vol.1 doc.3
Organization: University of Toronto, Engineering Computing Facility
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1993 14:43:20 GMT

Howdy all,

    Just like those to know that the server for Imperial Diku
    has certain hours of which it is not online.  To the North
    American players...the server is closed from (I believe)
    12:00am (EDT) for approximately 12hrs to 12:00pm (EDT).

    (Although this is just speculation....at this time the mud
    is probably down because these are the hours the univeristy
    opens classes and the sys-admin wants the computers used for
    other purposes *shrug*)
From: downsj@atlantis.CS.ORST.EDU (jason downs)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.misc
Subject: Re: Admin Conference
Keywords: huh?
Date: 11 Jan 93 08:26:28 GMT
Article-I.D.: leela.1iravlINNcvo
Organization: spherical domain of death and darkness
NNTP-Posting-Host: atlantis.cs.orst.edu

In article <C0o7J3.Atp@agora.rain.com>,
	dm0@agora.rain.com (Jerry Sievert) writes:
>Welp, I TRIED to make it back to the admin conference, but I kept getting
>"Connection Timed Out."... all I can say is leave it to Oregonians to try
>to regulate everything... not only do we have the 4th highest taxes in the
>nation, but a stupid governor who's trying to add more taxes, and not only
>are there people advocating for the rights of mudders, but we have people
>almost litterally fighting it out in the streets over human rights as well.
>(anyone remember measure 9?)... anyways, I regret that this Oregonian and
>god of muds is really tired and going to bed... could someone send me a
>summary?

yes! yes! yes! let's slam oregon some more! who cares if this is
rec.games.mud.misc, eh?

-- 
\-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-/
 \           - jason downs -           /\   - downsj@atlantis.CS.ORST.EDU -  /
 / zeppelin/amiga release 2/insane guy \/ led/vasudeva/lord of fear of death \
/-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-\
Xref: sparky rec.games.mud.misc:1847 rec.games.mud.tiny:1270
From: comptec90071@camins.camosun.bc.ca
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.misc
Subject: mud?
Date: 6 Jan 93 19:56:44 GMT
Organization: Camosun College

Anyone have any word as to what has happened to DaShadow's Dikumud?
I've been getting a connection refused for about 3 days now.
thanks
From: noah@cad.gatech.edu (Noah White)
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.misc
Subject: Re: God Conference on Player's Rights
Date: 6 Jan 1993 21:16:15 GMT
Organization: Georgia Institute of Technology, CAE/CAD Lab
Distribution: world
Reply-To: Noah.White@cad.gatech.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: goldeneye.cad.gatech.edu

  I strongly urge the conference be delayed until at least the 16th as many
schools are still out for break until then.

--
Noah White			Internet: noah@cad.gatech.edu

"Nothing makes a man more aware of his capabilities and of his limitations
 than those moments when he must push aside all the familiar defenses of ego
 and vanity, and accept reality by staring, with the fear that is normal to a
 man in combat, into the face of Death. "
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.misc
From: addey@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU (Adam Armstrong)
Subject: Re: worf.tamu.edu 2000 is open to non-texans?
Organization: /etc/organization
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1993 01:27:59 GMT

well... I doubt I'll post anything more after this note....
and I guess my assumption took me 1 step forward and 2 backwards...
why? cos I didn't know what all happened prior to Japlady's posting...
If I offended anyone in defending Japlady, then let it be my butt that gets
kicked.... but all in all.... the response was still (in my opinion) a bit
rough.... being an Admin on Chrome Blood, I don't think I've ever really
came down on anyone like a tonne of bricks (save for one incident where one
person badmouthed me - perhaps the same kind of thing happened to Raistlin
just now?) but I would aim to help anyone in any way I can.... sure it does
get to be a pain in the butt when players constantly hassle you about problems
on the mud, that's when I go invisible and let em mail me about it....
ANYWAY, I think this oughta be cleared up by now since we've heard from both
sides, but who says its really stupid to do all this in news?
Waste of bandwidth? well News is somewhere to discuss some things about muds
in general, and DR isn't the only mud where its had this kind of problem, so
what was really wrong with that? If she badmouthed someone in news, well, she'll
get flamed for it just as it happened *chuckle*.
Why did Japlady post it all in News? I don't really know the answer to that one,
but I had assumed it was because she couldn't get a word in edge-wise on the mud
so she tried what she could in News.

Ah well..... MUDs are supposed to be fun, so let it be.... MUD NAKED!

                                  Addey.
From: dvandom@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Dave Van Domelen)
Subject: Re: God Conference on Player's Rights
Organization: The Ohio State University
 <1993Jan7.122513.817@jupiter.sun.csd.unb.ca>
Distribution: rec.games.mud, rec.games.mud.lp, rec.games.mud.misc
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1993 15:36:15 GMT

Y'know, I spent over 30 minutes typing in a rather long posting about player 
rights last night, and I'm beginning to wonder if I accidentally mailed it to 
someone instead of posting it.
     The upshot was that Yes, Players Have Rights, but not all of them (the 
rights).
     Rights derive from responsibility, so directors have much more rights than
Joe Newbie.
     However, entrance to a virtual world does not strip a player of his real 
world rights, such as right to privacy (wiretap laws are analogous) and right 
to be protected from sexual (and other) harassment.  Comparing a mud to a 
business establishment is a good way to see what kinds of rights and claims a 
player keeps.  As long as the company does not implement restrictions that 
seriously impact a person's life after they leave the building, the company has
alot of leeway in restricting rights.  Dress codes, smoking bans, quiet 
workplace rules and so forth are all infringements of rights, but have no 
lasting impact outside the building.  Rummaging thru private belongings or 
sexually harassing an employee can have effects beyond the workplace and are 
therefore not allowed.  The problem, of course, is that there aren'r really any
private belongings on a mud, it's all code in the host machine, save for 
copyright laws on any original writing the players may do on the mud.  Yet 
without privacy of some kind on objects, many players will feel rather "naked".
Especially if they don't realize that they aren't "buying the book" they use 
for their personal writings, they are "checking it out of the library" and it 
doesn't leave the premises.
     I'll ramble more on these and related topics if my original article isn't 
here by tomorrow.
     Dave Van Domelen, "You can take the villain out of the 1940's..." "But you
can't take the 1940's out of the villain!" - Alan Scott and Jay Garrick, JSA
Newsgroups: rec.games.mud.misc