HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: yeung@reed.edu (Woodrow Yeung)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc
Subject: Re: Q: What's your opinion?
Date: 17 Nov 92 12:20:20 GMT
Article-I.D.: reed.1992Nov17.122020.6140
Organization: Reed College, Portland, Oregon

In article <1eab2mINNild@agate.berkeley.edu> jsjacob@soda.berkeley.edu (John S
>
> My question: what are the relative merits of OO languages available
> for the Mac. Indeed, what are the languages available? I know of C++
> and SmallTalk, and few others. I'm sure I don't know of all of them.

A pure OO language, SmallTalk is the language by which all OO languages are
judged.  Probably the best place to start if you want to learn OOP methods.
Avaliable on a wide variety of machines with 2 major implementations,
SmallTalk V by digitalk and SmallTalk ObjectWorks by ParcPlace.  Has its own
environment.  Typeless and very dynamic, hard to compile and not deemed
efficient enough for commercial application development.

Macintosh Common Lisp, another OO extension to Lisp.  Heard lots of good
things about it, but like SmallTalk not really viable for shrink wrap
software development.

Object Pascal, a Macintosh native, very simple but probably a dead language
as Apple is moving to C++.  A hybrid language with a strong influence from
SmallTalk.  It is also a strongly typed language.  Available as MPW Pascal
and THINK Pascal.  Language Systems will soon release a version.  There is
also a version on MS-DOS from Microsoft.  MacApp was originally written in
Object Pascal and there are still a lot of Object Pascallers out there.
Borland killed it when they released an OO version of Turbo Pascal that is
totally incompaticle with Object Pascal.  Microsoft probably abandoned
Pascal for good.

p1 Object Modula-2.  What's Modula-2?  What Pascal should have been.
Modula-2 with Object Pascal like OO extensions.  Current version works with
MacApp 2.0. Version 5.0 will be available anytime and will be compatible
with MacApp 3.0.  Bedrock will also be supported as will the PowerPC
architecture.  Contact Mr. Henne at GER.XSE0109@AppleLink.Apple.COM.

C++, C with a ton load of new features, not all of which are Object Oriented
extensions.  It keeps on growing and growing and ...  It has gained multiple
inheritance, templates and exceptions since I last used the language.  If
you want a job this is the language to learn.  Has the mark of a design by
committee but incredibly, it's mostly the work of one man.  Very complex and
like PL/1 and Ada the sum of all the features don't work very well together,
and makes it very ungainly.  Unfortunately it will be in the same league as
FORTRAN and COBOL.  MPW C++ is based on AT&T's CFront C++ to C translor.
Symantec was selling the Zortech C++ compiler.  A couple of respected Mac
developers have told me that THINK C 6.0 will be a C++ compiler and will be
available soon.  Available on just about any computers these days.  It works,
just like a Swiss army knife.

Anyone seen Objective C on the Mac?

Woody Yeung
yeung@reed.edu
From: jsjacob@soda.berkeley.edu (John S. Jacob)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc
Subject: Q: What's your opinion?
Date: 17 Nov 92 08:38:46 GMT
Article-I.D.: agate.1eab2mINNild
Distribution: world
Organization: U.C. Berkeley, CS Undergraduate Association
NNTP-Posting-Host: soda.berkeley.edu


As far as I can tell, this is the first post here. Anyway, there are
better things to discuss...

I've been toying with the idea of object-oriented-ness since learning
about it in Scheme (that Lisp-variant). Besides Scheme, I've used
Object C (Think C's implementation of OO).

My question: what are the relative merits of OO languages available
for the Mac. Indeed, what are the languages available? I know of C++
and SmallTalk, and few others. I'm sure I don't know of all of them.

I hope this thread suits this newsgroup. This type of discussion is
why I voted "Yes" for csmom. I also hope this thread doesn't
degenerate into "Mine is better than yours."

--
  [======== John S. Jacob ========]
  |   jsjacob@soda.berkeley.edu   |---- Address --------+
  | BITNET: jsjacob@ucbocf.bitnet | Foothill 7B45B      |
  +-------------------------------+ 2700 Hearst Ave     |
         Colon.                 |   Berkeley CA 94709   |
                 I win!         +-----------------------+
From: knapp@cs.purdue.edu (Edgar Knapp)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc
Subject: MacOberon (was: Q: What's your opinion?)
Date: 17 Nov 1992 21:38:44 -0500
Organization: Purdue University
NNTP-Posting-Host: cabernet.cs.purdue.edu

In article <1992Nov17.225710.4025@daimi.aau.dk> lhp@daimi.aau.dk (Lasse Hiller|e Petersen) writes:

>Is it really fair to call MacOberon a OOP language for Mac?
>I'd rather describe it as something like Soft-PC, giving you a virtual
>Oberon machine, totally different from anything you know about the Mac.
>
>(I looked at it, and dumped it, mainly because of that.)

Oberon is a language supporting inheritance, type extensions, and
dynamic binding. It's strong typing extends across module boundaries.
It's main advantages are simplicity, elegance, and price (free). 

Oberon is completely extensible, so that you can customize each and
every aspect of it (for instance enhance one of the included editors,
class browsers, or network modules with additional functions). Note
that this can be done without having to modify or recompile any of the
existing modules.

MacOberon is a program development environment, not just a compiler.
It takes a while getting used to, and a three button mouse really
helps. It nothing like SoftPC, more like MPW or one of the THINK
environments. It feels un-Mac-like since it is completely non-modal,
avoiding user interaction like the plague.

A program written in Oberon will run without modifications on Sun, DEC
and RS600 work stations (and some others). Also, the user interface is
virtually identical on all those machines.

What it being different has to do with whether or not it is object
oriented I fail to comprehend, however.

Edgar 

(knapp@cs.purdue.edu)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc
From: gseidman@math14.math.umbc.edu (gseidman@math14.math.umbc.edu)
Subject: trying to remember...
Organization: University of Maryland Baltimore Campus, Academic Computing Services
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 16:27:11 GMT

I have been trying to remember what it was called, but there was a
programming utility (pro-something? I don't recall) reviewed in a
professional math journal. The review was talking about how easy it was,
since you wrote object-oriented procedures in some sort of editor, then
linked/called the procedures (objects, whatever.... I don't remember it
as well as I might) graphically, "bringing the mac GUI to mac programming"
(I seem to remember it as a quote, but more likely than not it is a
paraphrase). Does anyone know what this programming environment is
called (more importantly, how good it is)?

Thanks in advance...
-gseidman@math14.math.umbc.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc
From: rufus@cis.umassd.edu (Rui N. Campos)
Subject: Re: Q: What's your opinion?
Organization: University of Massachusetts Dartmouth
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 02:48:24 GMT

In <1992Nov17.225710.4025@daimi.aau.dk> lhp@daimi.aau.dk (Lasse Hiller|e Petersen) writes:

>knapp@cs.purdue.edu (Edgar Knapp) writes:

>>In article <1eab2mINNild@agate.berkeley.edu> jsjacob@soda.berkeley.edu (John S. Jacob) writes:

>>>My question: what are the relative merits of OO languages available
>>>for the Mac. Indeed, what are the languages available? I know of C++
>>>and SmallTalk, and few others. I'm sure I don't know of all of them.

>>Try out MacOberon, a free implementation of Oberon for the Mac. Oberon
>>is well suited as a language to learn about Object Orientation, since
>>it focuses on the essentials. The book "Programming in Oberon" by
>>Reiser and Wirth (Addison-Wesley, ISBN 0-201-56543-9) is exceptionally
>>well written. The Oberon distribution itself contains substantial
>>documentation as well.

>>MacOberon is available from neptune.ethz.ch in directory Oberon. 

>>The only caveat I have: MacOberon will not run with AutoDoubler
>>installed. I will keep bugging Fifth Generation Systems about that,
>>though.

>Is it really fair to call MacOberon a OOP language for Mac?
>I'd rather describe it as something like Soft-PC, giving you a virtual
>Oberon machine, totally different from anything you know about the Mac.

>(I looked at it, and dumped it, mainly because of that.)

than you won't like MPW very much!


>One other OOP language that deserves mentioning, is Beta. Beta is a new
>language being developed at Nordic universities in the Mjolner project.
>(Contact mjolner@mjolner.dk for information.)
>Beta is a compiler for the MPW-environment. It uses a strong and elegant
>abstraction mechanism, called a "pattern" that joins classes and procedures.
>(While this is admittedly elegant, I find it extremistic and of questionable
>value.)

>At Information&Media Science, we have been using Beta in an introductory
>programming course for three years now. In my opinion Beta is not suited
>for this role, as the compiler is clumsy and slow, generating huge code.

>Would someone please implement Eiffel, preferably in a package comparable
>to Think Pascal? Please?

I heartily second that!! I used Eiffel during one of my grad classes, and it
was wonderful.  The ability to imbed pre and post conditions, as well as
loop invariants, into your code is wonderfully useful as a debugging tool, and
as a way to define a classes interface.

Anyone out there want to do this?  Please??
From: cohill@vtserf.cc.vt.edu (Andrew M. Cohill)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc
Subject: Re: Q: What's your opinion?
Date: 18 Nov 92 00:01:14 GMT
Organization: Fire in the Mountain

Objective-C for the Mac is available from the Stepstone Corporation.
Unfortunately you not only need MPW to use it, it offers only a basic
class library;  that is, no nice interface widgets, so it putting an
application together is still a big pile of work.

A better alternative is Prograph;  unlike Digitalk's Smalltalk for the
Mac, Prograph provides a real developer environment with things like
persistent objects, an object database built in, C and Pascal
interfaces, support for the Comm Toolbox, interface editors that make
putting together basic Mac applications a breeze, and a very good class
library.  They also provide extremely good technical support to
developers.  Digitalk ST/V has none of these things.  ST/V offers what
amounts to a closed environment:  you have to do everything in the ST
virtual machine, and it is very difficult to break out of it without
going to a lot of work.  We've used both and are very very happy with
Prograph.

Andrew Cohill
Eris:  The Virginia Tech Information System

-- 
|          ...we have to look for routes of power our teachers never       
|              imagined, or were encouraged to avoid.   T. Pynchon          
|                    
|Andrew Cohill        cohill@vtserf.cc.vt.edu            VPI&SU                                                  
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc
From: ogd@selway.umt.edu (ozymandias G desiderata)
Subject: Re: Q: What's your opinion?
Organization: University of Montana
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 02:01:44 GMT

In article <1eattdINN9dc@transfer.stratus.com> nick@sw.stratus.com (Nicolas Tamburri) writes:
>Yerk, and its close relative Mops, are 2 Forth based OOLs. Don't let the names
>scare you, they are fairly nice packages, and both trace their roots, (i.e.
>they had to be renamed to avoid legal conflicts,) to the once commercially
>available language Neon.  They are available by ftp from oddjob.uchicago.edu,
>with docs.

	Okay, here's something I've been curious about for a while. I
downloaded MOPS when I saw it, and paged quickly through the manual,
decided that it was very similar to Yerk, and filed it away on an
archive disk somewhere (as my hard drive is crammed to the rafters).
What, exactly are the differences between Yerk and MOPS? The manual
sorta said, but it mostly seemed to be identical to the Yerk manual.
	BTW, I agree that Yerk is a very flexible and deceptively
simple OOL. I get this disconcerting feeling (just like when I'm using
SmallTalk) that I'm not really doing any development at all.

>								/nt

ozymandias G desiderata
(ogd@selway.umt.edu)

-- 
----
		"Give me your hand and I'll tell you your future,
		 give me your wallet and I'll tell you your past."
			- Mudwimin, "Oom Pa Pa"
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc
From: olevi@daimi.aau.dk (Ole Villumsen)
Subject: Re: Q: What's your opinion?
Organization: DAIMI: Computer Science Department, Aarhus University, Denmark
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 92 04:45:55 GMT

gschwarz@dcc.uchile.cl (Guillermo Schwarz Utrup (Coto)) writes:

>Is there any Beta compiler for free (shareware, freeware or something like that)?
>I want one for UNIX or DOS, if possible. If not, forget it.

No, you have to buy it. I don't know the price; write mjolner@mjolner.dk
for information. There are compilers for several machines running Unix
(sun, hp, ...), but no Dos compiler (yet?).

Ole
--

 Ole V. Villumsen              
 Computer Science Department, Aarhus University, Denmark
 ovillumsen@daimi.aau.dk
From: knapp@cs.purdue.edu (Edgar Knapp)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc
Subject: Re: Q: What's your opinion?
Date: 17 Nov 1992 09:44:53 -0500
Organization: Purdue University
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: cabernet.cs.purdue.edu

In article <1eab2mINNild@agate.berkeley.edu> jsjacob@soda.berkeley.edu (John S. Jacob) writes:

>My question: what are the relative merits of OO languages available
>for the Mac. Indeed, what are the languages available? I know of C++
>and SmallTalk, and few others. I'm sure I don't know of all of them.

Try out MacOberon, a free implementation of Oberon for the Mac. Oberon
is well suited as a language to learn about Object Orientation, since
it focuses on the essentials. The book "Programming in Oberon" by
Reiser and Wirth (Addison-Wesley, ISBN 0-201-56543-9) is exceptionally
well written. The Oberon distribution itself contains substantial
documentation as well.

MacOberon is available from neptune.ethz.ch in directory Oberon. 

The only caveat I have: MacOberon will not run with AutoDoubler
installed. I will keep bugging Fifth Generation Systems about that,
though.

Edgar

(knapp@cs.purdue.edu)
From: chuckp@u.washington.edu (Chuck Pliske)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.misc
Subject: Re: Q: What's your opinion?
Date: 17 Nov 92 23:56:00 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Nov17.235600.7806
Organization: University of Washington
X-Xxmessage-Id: <A72EC686EE01372A@chuckp.staffdev.washington.edu>
X-Xxdate: Tue, 17 Nov 92 23:55:50 GMT
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d12

Re: Q: What's your opinion?

Well, for my two cents worth, the more esoteric among you might want to 
investigate SIMULA, one of the oldest OO langs around (Would you believe 
25 years!) and IMHO, still one of the best.  There are OO concepts in 
SIMULA that are not even hinted at by the current spate of "pop" oo stuff 
such as C++.  The quickest way to learn about SIMULA is to track it down 
with ARCHIE on one of your friendly FTP sites, get the free Mac version 
and mess around.  You will need MPW, but little else.  Also I hear a new 
version is about to be released and if legal, will soon find its way into 
the FTP sites.

Once you discover that the Europeans have forgotten more about OOP than 
we 'Mericans ever knew, you may want to try BETA, the latest thing to 
come out of the folks that originated SIMULA 25 years ago.  BETA is also 
available for the MAC, but alas, not free.  Send to ESS@MJOLNER.DK for 
more information.

WARNING!!! Simula, and to a greater extent BETA, is not for the faint of 
mind.  These languages embody concepts that are difficult to grasp for us 
normal folks.  I programmed in Simula for about 10 years, and, while 
practically from the start I enjoyed an expressiveness unavailable in
today's 
languages, there were many features of Simula I never could quite 
"comprehend".  BETA is nearly opaque to us VonNewmannites.

I have, however, used the Mac version of Beta, and will buy the system 
when it becomes available with the run-time debugger.

Chuck
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc
From: jeffc@comb1.comb.umd.edu (Jeff Clowser; IRG)
Subject: Re: Looking for PostScript -> PCL program...
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Maryland, Center of Marine Biotechnology
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1992 14:37:00 GMT

In article <1992Nov20.034118.27433@merk.com>, sltheria@artsci.wustl.edu writes...
>Here's the situation:
> 
>I own a Mac SE/30 which I use here at college for writing papers, connecting to
>the mainframe and the occasional game (OK, I play games a lot..). Being a poor
>college student, I don't have my own printer and I hate treking to the lab to
>print out papers at 2 in the morning. My roommate, however, has a PC and an HP
>LaserJet III (I am jealous...). He said that he has been able to find programs
>that will covert PCL documents for printing on PostScript printer.
> 
>My question is: Is there a utility out there (to run on either a PC or my Mac)
>that will take a PostScript file that I create and make it printable on his HP
>LaserJet?
> 
>Please reply by mail, and I'll post a summary if need be....
> 
>Seth
> 
>-- 
>Seth Theriault		{:^)		     "Have a garlic bagel today!"
> 
>Internet: seth@merk.com		UUCP: ...uunet!merk!seth
>	  seth@works.uucp	      ...uunet!merk!works!seth


I'm pretty sure all you're gonna need is the right cable and a driver.  I've
seen Mac drivers for the Laserjet III on Applelink.  I contacted HP about 
drivers for a Laserjet II - they don't support it (at least not for the Macs),
but you can call them and they'll send you the driver for free or very cheap.
Then you can just connect the printer for he price of the cable, and you're
set.  I've never actually tried to connect a laserjet II, so I could be
wrong.  I don't have HP's number handy - look in the manual, or I think it's
in a file containing 800 numbers on sumex.  Email me back if you can't find it
and I'll see if I can dig it up.

===============================================================================
Jeff Clowser		    			     "A keyboard... how quaint"
JeffC@comb1.comb.umd.edu
Network Administrator, Macintosh Technical Support
Information Resources Group, Maryland Biotechnology Institute
University of Maryland

Xref: sparky comp.sys.mac:464 comp.sys.mac.hardware:21769 comp.sys.mac.system:14161
From: peirce@outpost.SF-Bay.org (Michael Peirce)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: ?Two monitors on MAC IIcx w/System 7.0.1
Date: 17 Nov 92 05:26:52 GMT
Reply-To: peirce@outpost.SF-Bay.org (Michael Peirce)
Organization: Peirce Software
X-Mailer: uAccess - Macintosh Release: 1.6v1


In article <mike.721006581@starburst.umd.edu> (comp.sys.mac,comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.system), mike@starburst.umd.edu (Michael F. Santangelo) writes:
> Don't have any manuals to RTFM and I know this isn't too hard for
> those well versed with MAC's and MAC/OS.  
> 
> I just installed System 7.0.1 (w/"tune" disk) on a MAC IIcx for
> first time.  We already had a portrait monitor and display adapter
> card but also had a spare MAC color monitor and color display adapter
> card.  To my understanding these can work together, so I put the color
> display adapter card in along with the portrait card, but when I boot
> ONLY the portrait monitor is active, color monitor is powered up but
> nothing appears.  I selected "Monitors" under control panels and it
> seems to only see the portrait display card.  I have verified several
> times the cards are in correctly, only other card in besides these
> two is a 3COM ethernet card.  I did unplug the portrait display card
> and just had the brand new color card in their but got no picture
> on the color monitor.  I took the cable from the color card and connected
> it to an adjacent MAC's color monitor of the same kind and got no display
> their either.  This is a brand new color monitor and card.  Any ideas?

Open the Monitors Control Panel.  Place the monitors in the right
configurations, set the bit depths, etc.  They will either start working
right then or after you reboot the next time.

--  Michael Peirce      --   peirce@outpost.SF-Bay.org
--  Peirce Software     --   Suite 301, 719 Hibiscus Place
--                      --   San Jose, California USA 95117
--  Makers of...        --   voice: (408) 244-6554 fax: (408) 244-6882
--            SMOOTHIE  --   AppleLink: peirce & America Online: AFC Peirce
From: nick+@pitt.edu (Nick C De Mello)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.hardware
Subject: Re: New 14" Monitor and Xceed 8-bit
Date: 16 Nov 92 18:30:42 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh

>I talked to the guy at Xceed, which is now a separate company from Micron,
>based in Michigan. They have an 800 number but I have lost it. He said that
>they had NOT tested the Xceed30 8-bit with the new Apple 14, but it 
>should work :). It does not work with the SONY 1320 VGA, but does with the 
>1304S. He also said the NEC multisynch and Macsynch were fine. I guess that the
>new apple would uses the same scan frequencies as the 13" Apple, for which the
>card was designed. Better try to contact them to be sure. If anyone has the 
>number for Xceed, could you please post it ?

Jim:

  Micron's number is  800-642-7661 or 208-368-3850

   8455 Westpark Street
   Boise, ID 83704-8366

                            Hope it helps,

                                -- Nick



-- 
   _/   _/  _/  _/_/_/   _/   _/  Sea Shells to C shls,  Waikiki to
  _/_/ _/  _/  _/   _/  _/_/_/     the Internet, a wave, is a wave...
 _/ _/_/  _/  _/       _/ _/                   
_/   _/  _/   _/_/_/  _/   _/                       Nick+@pitt.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.systems,comp.sys.mac.misc,aus.mac
From: djredick@bluemoon.use.com (Darrin J. Redick)
Subject: Re: HOW DO I rename a hard disk????????
Organization: Blue Moon BBS ((614) 868-998[024])
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 92 01:26:19 EST

cwheeler@alsvid.une.edu.au (AlphaPrime) writes:

> I have a Mac Classic II running system 7.1. I can't rename the hard disk.
> So far I have made sure the File sharing was off and made sure that no networ
> funtions are on.
> What do I do.

Well, offhand, what _I_ would do is take the pointer, click on the name
of the hard drive, and type the new name.  I believe that is how it is
done.


   ______________________________________________________________________
  |                                                                      |
  | InterNet: djredick@bluemoon.use.com                                  |
  |______________________________________________________________________|
  |                                                                      |
  | FutureNet : #129@#02 #021@#03  #100@#07  #032@#09  #001@#10 #077@#13 |
  |             #041@#14 #067@#15  #131@#16  #043@#19  #113@#21 #126@#22 |
  |             #247@#25 #051@#26  #030@#31  #009@#33  #035@#41          |
  |______________________________________________________________________|
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.hardware,comp.sys.mac.misc
From: Quinn <quinn@cs.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Plugging in floppy on PB100 while asleep. Will it do damage?
X-Xxdate: Thu, 19 Nov 92 02: 04:33 GMT
Organization: The University of Western Australia
X-Useragent: Nuntius v1.1.1d12
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1992 02:07:45 GMT

In article <25545@io.camcon.co.uk> Jonathan Kimmitt, jrrk@camcon.co.uk
writes:
>I have found out by trial and error (at least I couldn't find the
>documentation for this feature) that pressing NMI and RESET on the side
of 
>the machine simultaneously will turn the machine off from the "Insert
Disk"
>stage.

RTFM RTFM RTFM (-:

Or more correctly...

Read The Manual More Closely.  It's buried in there somewhere.
Unfortunately I don't have it on me so I can't chase up the page
number.

Quinn "The Eskimo!"      <quinn@cs.uwa.edu.au>     "Support HAVOC!"
Department of Computer Science, The University of Western Australia
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.hardware