From: slkg9733@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Steven L. Kellmeyer)
Subject: Re: CALLING ALL SUPPORTERS OF LEGAL ABORTION.
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Distribution: talk.abortion
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1992 22:36:05 GMT

gordons@coopsol.com (Gordon Storga) writes:

><1992Apr8.223119.22140@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> slkg9733@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Steven L. Kellmeyer) said:
>>rivk@quads.uchicago.edu (nora gayle rivkis) writes:
>>>In article <1992Apr6.230505.14671@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> slkg9733@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Steven L. Kellmeyer) writes:
>>>>People who support both:
>>>>            * legalized abortion
>>>>	              and
>>>>            * weakening current child support law:
>>>>
>>>>                  Eric Rescorla
>>>>                  Gordon Storga
>>>>                  Kevin Darcy
>>>>                  Larry Margolis
>>>>                  Jennifer Brown
>>>>                  E.E. Bartley
>>>>                  Nora Rivkis
>>
>>>I've repeated about seven times now that I do not favor "weakening"
>>>current child support law, I favor ALTERING it. This will in some
>>>weird instances make it weaker, in a lot of instances make it stronger,
>>>and be basically dedicated to clearing up some of the inconsistencies
>>>present in an outdated law. Get it right.
>>
>>NO, NORA!!! YOU get it right.  Creating situations  in which the man
>>does not have to pay child support, and claiming that this makes
>>it stronger because there are "fewer violations" is nonsensical.

>No, it isn't.

Great rebuttal.

>>It's like permitting people to kill other people as long as they
>>use a handgun (nothing else, just a handgun is legal) and then
>>claiming that you've really reduced the number of murders in the 
>>country.  

>No, it isn't.

Can't argue with that logic.

>>The law is only "outdated" because abortion is legal and nobody thought 
>>through the really nasty consequences that might have on society.

>And what are those consequences?  Come on, list them.  And they better be
>actually linked, not just coincidental.  the only consequence I can think
>of is nosy people like you are upset that others are doing things that you
>find distasteful.

Increased rates of child abuse.  
Increased violence towards women.  
Increased rates of men abandoning women and the children they helped create.
Increasing acceptance of misogyny in the work place.
Decreased self-esteem for women as any failure to reach high stature in
the male-defined business environment can now be labelled a "women's
failure" since she wouldn't have had those kids if she REALLY wanted to
succeed, and success, by male definition, can come ONLY from the 
boardroom, never from the kitchen or the family.

IN short, abortion is not only misogyny in action, it breeds more as it goes.

>>>I'm also not yet decided about favoring legalized abortion, either;
>>>I'm just accepting it until I make up my mind, because I don't want
>>>to legislate prohibiting *anything* until I'm absolutely positive
>>>it has to be done.
>>
>>You know that's a crock.  A lot of people "just accepted" a lot of things
>>throughout history, because they weren't sure if it was all that wrong.

>And sometimes it wasn't wrong.

Given the reasons listed above, it is obvious that abortion is wrong.

>>Saying you personally oppose abortion, but wouldn't do a thing to stop
>>anyone from indulging in it is, in practice, indistinguishable from
>>supporting it.  Like the old saying goes, if you ain't a part of the
>>solution, you're part of the problem.

>Good old Steve "It's black or white - there are no gray areas" Kellmeyer.
>In this case, if you aren't part of the solution, you're not minding your
>own business.

Gordon, Gordon, Gordon, you say that as if it's a bad thing.
A lot of people saw things as black and white and refused to mind their
own business.  Civil rights leaders spring to mind.  The judges at the
Nuremburg trials tended to be pretty black and white about certain 
issues and certainly stuck their noses into the business of another 
country despite the fact that they had no internationally legalized
grounds to do so.  If I see somebody getting beaten up on the street,
I intervene, even though the issue may very well not be black and white
and it's certainly none of my business.  If a beggar asks me for money,
he gets it, though the moral issues in subsidizing this activity are
certainly not black or white and his financial affairs are also none
of my business.  I sort of take pride in that.  I guess no one would
ever catch YOU at it, though, huh?


>Gordon

SK