From: topcat!tom@tredysvr.tredydev.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht)
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Judaizers in Colossians
Date: 1 Oct 92 02:05:04 GMT
Organization: Applied Presuppositionalism, Ltd.

swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren) writes:

> >Regarding "strange fire," none of the MJs have never answered one, simple
> >question:  where specifically did God change His law to allow the
> >celebration of the Levitical feasts without the shedding of blood?
> 
> Where specifically did God change His law to permit David to eat the
> show bread?  Yet Yeshua spoke approvingly of this action by David.

You'll have to do better than that, Steve.  There is a difference in
Scripture between what is normative for all, and what is permitted in
special cases.  David and the showbread was a special case.  No one could
just walk in off the street and consume the showbread. Deborah the judge
was a special case.  We don't allow women elders in the church simply
because there were occasional female leaders under the old covenant.

The MJs insist that Jesus didn't come to "change" the old covenant law, He
simply "fulfilled" it according to their understanding of the word
"fulfilled in Matt. 5:17.  My question remains: where did God change His
law to allow the religious celebration of the Levitical feasts without the
shedding of blood?

> >Bruce or Harvey or Bill, show us all where the Bible says that the MJ
> >version of Yom Kippur or Passover is a biblical celebration.  Show us how
> >the MJ version is any different than the rabbinic version, i.e., relying on
> >the traditions of men.  Anyone care to try?  Until you can, my comment
> >about "strange fire" (unsanctioned worship) stands.
> 
> Yet God is certainly more pleased with the heart that seeks to worship
> Him through these types and symbols than the heart that is filled with
> bitterness against the Lord's servants, as you seem to be.

How is it that you can take me to task for "judging" Harvey and Bill, and
then turn around an judge my heart.  Rather hypocritical, don't you think?

Unlike your attitude towards me, I never judged the hearts of Harvey, Bruce
or Bill.  I simply pointed out that some of their ideas/actions are
inconsistent with the revealed word of God.  If that's being unchristian,
then the apostle Paul was unchristian toward the apostle Peter when he
pointed out the error of Peter's actions.

> Where do you get this concept of unsanctioned worship?  ...

Exodus 30:9; Leviticus 10:1,2.

>                                                         Do you think
> that MJs are worshipping the Father on the basis of the old covenant?

Old covenant forms.  Yes.  They use aspects of worship which the New
Testament clearly says were temporary, decayed, and passing away in the 1st
century (cf. Hebrews 8:13, Col. 2:16,17).  Once the Temple was finally
removed by God, all sacrificial forms of worship ended.  By defintion, the
Old Covenant feasts ended as well, since they were part and parcel with the
sacrificial system that ended in the 1st century.

I never suggested that Mjs based their salvation on anything but the finish
work of Christ on the cross.  I assume their regular worship reflects that
fact.  I never suggested that their views on salvation were akin to the
rabbinic views.

If you want to be fair and honest, let's talk about the Bible without
commenting on one's heart.

> You are in direct violation of this command of scripture to stop
> passing judgement on your brothers for their observance of holy days.
> (Romans 14:13) ...

Nonsense.  If they wanted to sacrifice lambs at Passover, wouldn't I have
the obligation to point out the meaninglessness of this action from the
Scriptures?  They have seemed compelled to point out the futility of Easter
bunnies and eggs in Christian services, and rightly so.  Human traditions,
whether they be pagan Easter traditions or rabbinic Passover traditions,
have no place in the Church of Jesus Christ.


--
Tom Albrecht