From: nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: 2 points about the "M" thing [was Re: The New ... ]
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 21:10:36 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA

In article <1992Sep1.201342.28559@eecs.nwu.edu> efstse@epsilon.eecs.nwu.edu (Serafim Efstratiadis) writes:
>In article <BtwuK8.IuG@apollo.hp.com> nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson) writes:
>>In article <1992Sep1.154536.1915@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> pef@dcs.qmw.ac.uk (Panayotis Fouliras) writes:
>>  And even this doesn't apply to place names.  I'm posting from
>>  Chelmsford, Massachusetts, a place *deliberately* named after
>   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>  a town in England.  In fact on a recent visit to England I was
>   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>  struck by the great many towns there with the same names as 
>>  towns around where I live: Bristol, Portsmouth, Essex, Plymouth,
>
>You have made the typical mistake that everyone who's not aware of the
>real problem. I understand you completely. That is:
>(1) You THINK that the problem is the name alone, and
>(2) You do not realize that every case is particular/different; here
>    we are talking about THE NORTH/MIDDLE BALKANS and not U.S.A or England
>    or Switzerland or Australia. 

  So?   Why is what's logical in one place illogical in another?


>    name ``Macedonia'' lie on the fact that the government of Skopje
>    has supported plans in creating what they call a "Great Macedonia"
>    which means appending to their state a part of Greece and a part of
>    Bulgaria.
 
  So?  If they try to do so through force then this is an act of war
  and Greece or Bulgaria would have a legitimate complaint, else I
  don't see what this has to do with either independence of the name 
  of the place.

>          Also, they claim that they are an ethnicity so-called
>    ``Macedonian'' and they speak a language so-called ``Macedonian'.
>    Note here, that this people is of Bulgarian descent and they speak
>    a Bulgarian dialect, therefore, a name such as this is not suitable

  Why is it "suitable" for people here to take a town and in a place
  called "Massachusetts" (A native American name) and call it Chelmsford?
  Why is it "suitable" for people in New York to name their cities
  Troy, Syracuse, Attica, etc?   It is not your place or mine to tell
  people what is a "suitable" name for something.  If the people living
  in Macedonia/Skopje want to call themselves or their language "Martian",
  Bronx, Dravidian, or Saxon, then this is their lookout.



>    government not only does push the false notion of a ``Macedonian''
>    nation but it also claims that there exists such a minority in the
>    Northern part of Greece, rightfully named Macedonia since that has been
>    the name of this land for 4,000 years. What is dangerous here for the
>    stability of the region is that by officially recognizing a state with
>    such a name this propaganda, falsification of Greek history (they claim
>    they are the rightful descents of Alexander the Great!),
 
  So?


>    Actually, the great majority of Albanians (around 35-40%) of the
>    population of Skopje do not wish to be called ``Macedonians'' and they
>    have protested strongly against that. In other words, this persistence
>    of the SKOPJE GOVERNMENT to bear a Greek name has POLITICAL reasons
>    and could cause instability in the region, while it has very-very
>    little to do with the wish of the people to be called like that.

  A plebiscite would resolve both of these issues.  If it's just the 
  government or some ethnic minority then it would fail a plebiscite.


>(2) You gave an example of an american town that is called by the name of
>    an English town. Fine. There are 3 or 4 towns in the U.S.A. alone that
>    are called "Athens". No problem. Why? Well, it is obvious. The americans
>    in those towns they do not claim that they are DIRECT descendents from
>    the Ancient Greeks and therefore, they are entitled to append a part
>    of Greece to that state!

  But even if they did this still wouldn't be an issue unless they tried
  to do so.   And if they were intent on doing so then it would hardly
  matter what they called themselves.    


>    Now, consider another example. Let's say that Iraq claims that
>    there is a great number of Iraqis in Kuwait and that it is being
>    suppressed, that Kuwait was an Iraqi province that it was stolen by
>    an Arabic tribe, therefore, it should be returned to Iraq.
>    I believe that you know the rest of the story.

  Right, and notice that they didn't have to call themselves "Kuwait"
  to do this.  The name is unimportant.  If the people in Macedonia/
  Skopje are intent on attacking Greece they can do so whether they
  are called Skopje, Macedonia, or Saxony.  


>    It is important to understand the level of potential instability at the
>    Balkans just as in the Middle East. No better example than the on going war
>    RIGHT NOW!

   But the Balkans have always been unstable, violent, and tribal.  This
   is just they way the cultures in that part of the world are.   The names
   of the states in that region no bearing on this fact.  


>   The argument that the state of Skopje is not also NOT VALID at all since
>   (history teaches) that almost all wars involve at least two parties as
>   allies. Therefore, Greece is not taking any chances.

   Sure she is.  Countries always take chances in everything they do.  
   In this case Greece is taking the chance that interfering in an 
   issue beyond its borders won't have some other international reper-
   cussions.   The mistake Greece is making is thinking that if her
   neighbors intend to attack her the Greeks can reduce this risk by 
   removing some superficial excuse.  Someone who intends you harm
   can always find some other excuse.  Look at Bush and Saddam: Bush
   was looking for an excuse to take action against Iraq and hoped that
   intransigence on UN weapons inspections a few weeks ago would provide
   it.  But when Saddam caved in on that one suddenly Bush discovered
   the plight of the Shiites.    


---peter



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