From: lfoard@Turing.ORG (Lawrence C. Foard)
Subject: Re: PRC why?
Organization: The Turing Project, Charlottesville Virginia.
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 13:25:42 GMT

In article <Bu8nsw.59s@news.cso.uiuc.edu> pkk36438@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Polygon) writes:
>lfoard@Turing.ORG (Lawrence C. Foard) writes:
>
>>This is the second tract and completes todays lesson :-)
>
>>Copyright(c), 1992, Lawrence Foard 
>>May be copied and distributed freely in unmodified form.
>>PRC Tract #1 Revision 0.1
>
>>              WHAT IS THE PYTHAGOREAN REFORM CHURCH?
>
>> Modern science and math has its roots in the Pythagorean religion, the
>>Pythagorean theorem has survived well over 2000 years and is an essential
>>component of classical and relativistic physics. However in modern times it
>>has been fashionable to separate physics and math from religion, I believe
>>that this is essentially incorrect. We no longer need a separate mysterious
>				     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>religion to explain our existence. Rather than denying the existence of the
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>soul I want to put it back into this world where it belongs, without
>>stripping it of its wonder or meaning.
>
>	While you are denying a "seperate mysterious religion", you are
>	building another even more mysterious religion.  Do you know that?

Its true that evolution and a soul existing in a machine sounds stranger
than a seperate reality. But if one proposes that there is a seperate
reality then we must also attempt to explain the supernatural. Brushing
it under the rug won't do :-)
So really a non supernatural reality is simpler.

>
>> I find the Pythagorean ideas concerning irrational numbers very appealing.
>>I believe that any correct theory of reality will be one that can be run on
>>a finite turing machine (a real computer). This does not allow irrational
>					    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>numbers or infinities to have any "real" existence. A theory of reality that
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>requires an infinite turing machine (computer thats infinitely fast with
>>infinite memory), would put true understanding of reality forever outside of
>>our reach. I refuse to believe that this is the case. PRC members are not
>>required to accept this belief.
>
>
>	Real number line can be construted by either Dedekind's cut or
>	Cauchy's sequence.  I really think you can get a Field's medal if
>	you can disprove the existence of irrational number.  I am not saying
>	it is impossible to disprove-- it is just out of my wildest 
>	imagination. 

One can make an algorithm which given infinite time and space will generate
an irrational number. However no physical process that we are concerned with
has infinite space or time in which to happen, so its perfectly legitimate
to say that irrational numbers play no role in "real" systems.

Can you tell if any physical constants are irrational? Remember PI
represents euclidian space, our space is not euclidian, not infinite, and
not infinitly sub dividable.

>>                                 WHY?
>
>> I want to provide an alternative to the current religions which are based
>>on false premises. The Pythagorean reform church rather than fighting
>>science and true understanding of the universe, will look for answers to the
>>great questions of existence among what we do know. The Pythagorean reform
>>church will not be afraid to state that some answers are not known, or that
>>some of its beliefs may be wrong. The religion must grow with our scientific
>>understanding rather than dragging its feet and then acting as though past
>>mistakes never happened (Galileo vs. Vatican).
>
>	The problem with the so-called scientific method is that it cannot
>	be examined by a system outside of it.  I mean you cannot prove the
>	truth of logic without the use of logic.  Science in many case is
>	merely a descriptive language.  As a result, science is not more
>	"objective" or reliable than any religion based on "false premises".
>
>	The catch is that if you "will not be afraid to state that some of
>	its beliefs may be wrong", then you have to question your own
>	postion at the same time because every premise of religion is 
>	questionable.
>
>> The Pythagorean reform church believes that people should be concerned with
>>ethics and making the world a better place. However these ethics should be
>						     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>based on logic, reason and fact and not on mythology. I personally am a
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>utilitarian (really a local utilitarian, to be described in another tract).
>>However I urge all members to think about there own system of ethics, and 
>>hold to a personal system of ethics which will ultimately make the world a
>>better place. This is not an easy problem but we can atleast try our best.
>
>	It seems that if ethics is solely based on "logic, reason and fact",
>	then everyone can establish his own ethics because everyone can fit
>	different fragments of fact into his own logic frame to make up some
>	"justifiED" reasons.

The same is true of biblical ethics, depending on the part of the bible
you want to listen to that day, you can give all your money away, or find
justification for killing virtually every person alive.
No secular system of ethics is that ambigous :-)

>>                      WAR OF IDEAS (MEME WARFARE)
>
>> At the Republican convention Buchanan declared a cultural war, the side of
>>truth cannot sit idle by while the forces of ignorance prepare for battle.
>>The forces of ignorance cannot be defeated with weapons because they feed on
>>fear and hatred, rather we must arm ourselves with ideas. If you kill an
>>enemy you have one less enemy, if you convert an enemy you have one less
>>enemy and one more friend. We must battle the ignorance and fear (father of
>			    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>bigotry father of war) with knowledge, and falsehood with truth.  
>			^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>	Battle?  What battle?
>	So you like Buchanan or not?

Buchanan has declared war on gay's, atheists, etc.
He has the entire fund raising abilities of every fundy in the country
behind him. If those who buchanan attacks don't show up for the fight
we will lose.

>>                     THE REQUEST FOR MONEY :-)
>
>> I would like to turn the Pythagorean reform church into a force that could
>>ultimately begin to compete with the endless Fundamentalist propaganda piped
>>into the homes of America. If you would like to turn on the TV and see the
>>Pythagorean broadcasting network explaining the wonders of evolution send me
>>some money :-) I still need to figure out how to get tax exempt status, so
>>for the time being the Pythagorean reform church is not tax exempt. I
>>promise not to pay myself any more than the fair market value of the time I
>>put into "church business", all other money will go to printing, mailing,
>>etc. . If you have a substantial amount to give please contact me about the
>>time frame for tax exempt status. I will be happy to provide a signed
>>statement about the use of the money.  
>
>	I don't like Fundamentalism either.  However, I don't see why we have
>	to support the PRC.  

Well you don't "have to", its not like I can send you to hell or anything
:-)

>(Tell you what.  At the first sight, I thought
>	PRC stands for People's Republic of China.)

Well hopefully the Pythagorean reform church will out live the other PRC.

>> Any donations may be sent to:
>> Lawrence Foard
>> 217 Park Ave.
>> Box #108
>> Worcester MA 01609
>> check memo: donation for PRC
>
>>                    BUT I DON'T HAVE ANY MONEY/
>>               WHY WOULD I SEND MONEY TO THIS WEIRDO
>
>> Give copies (copy to your hearts content) of the PRC literature to your
>>friends, pass it out at airports, wait until annoying fundamentalists are
>>preaching on your street stand next to them handing it out. While the
>>religion has serious goals there is no law against having fun achieving
>>them. For additional fun dress up like ancient greeks while passing out
>>literature :-)
>
>> Contributions of ideas, or anything else of use are welcome.
>> Send to the address above, entropy@world.std.com, lfoard@turing.org, or
>> call my BBS at 1-617-793-9568.
>
>>Non discrimination clause:
>> The PRC is open to sentient beings (including sentient AI's) regardless of
>> color, height, width, weight, sex (or lack there of), sexual orientation, or
>> nation/planet of origin. 
>
>>Discrimination clause:
>> The PRC is not open to creationists, homophobes, rascists, Nazi's, KKK
>> members, rapists and non sentient bread mold.
>
>	Do you (reader) think that I am a "non sentient bread mold"?  :)
>	I think a really cool religion is open to anyone who is interested
>	in it, for better or for worse.

Hey even sentient bread mold's are allowed :-)

>>-- 
>>------          Join the Pythagorean Reform Church!               .
>>\    /        Repent of your evil irrational numbers             . .
>> \  /   and bean eating ways. Accept 10 into your heart!        . . .
>>  \/   Call the Pythagorean Reform Church BBS at 508-793-9568  . . . .
>>
>
>	Sir, you have amazed me.  

Thanks :-)

>       I can't believe there are still some
>	people advocating Pythagorean ideology.  

Well the bean eating part has been removed from PRC ideology...
What should really amaze you is that fundies are still pushing leviticus,
after all the Golden verses are infinitly better :-)

>       I wish you all my best
>	on working to be an expert in this subject.  You can be a good
>	philosopher-- if not a good businessman.

Well atleast if the OCA comes to mass we can set up tables next to
theres collecting petitions to outlaw bean eating in mass :-)
-- 
------          Join the Pythagorean Reform Church!               .
\    /        Repent of your evil irrational numbers             . .
 \  /   and bean eating ways. Accept 10 into your heart!        . . .
  \/   Call the Pythagorean Reform Church BBS at 508-793-9568  . . . .
    
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