HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 20:15:00 EDT
From:         "Composition Digest (Robert Royar,
              Moderator)" <R0MILL01@ULKYVX.BITNET>
Subject:      (Fwd: *C&CD*) Appropriate discussion for me? (9)

Entry: 9
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 15:47.28.87
From: Timothy L. Trimble <ttrimble@timinator.win.net>
Subject: Appropriate discussion for me? (9)
Message-id: <3@timinator.win.net>
Reply-to: Computers & Composition Digest (R. Royar) <R0MILL01@ULKYVX.BITNET>

After viewing a few of the discussions I was wondering if this is an
appropriate area for my involvement?  I am a freelance writer and a
fulltime programmer and software designer. I hope to have my freelancing
become my full time employment in the near future.  Most of my writing is
of a technical nature for various computer related magazines but I also
write a column for Computer Gaming World and I am working on my first book
for Microsoft Press.  I do not have a formal education in writing and aside
from proposals and project plans I do not do any technical writing in my
employment.  Can I gain anything from this discussion and also have
something to offer to the others?

Tim "The Timinator" Trimble
ttrimble@timinator.win.net


------------------------------
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Date:         Thu, 10 Dec 1992 15:50:21 AST
Comments:     <10DEC92.17134025.0066.MUSIC@UNB.CA>
From:         Russ Hunt <HUNT@UNB.CA>
Subject:      I owe a big thanks to somebody here, but who is it?

> Thank you to the person who suggested that first-year writing students
> interview someone in theor prospective field.  I liked the idea but
> didn't save the message, so I adapted the notion to my current comp
> classes. Wow, finally I got some great essays!  I'm in the middle
> of reading them right now but I had to stop and say thanks to the
> mystery MBUer.
    It wasn't me.  Sounds great.
    A question: who else is reading the essays beside you?
(That's meant to be a suggestion for developing it.)
                                    -- Russ
                                __|~_
Russell A. Hunt            __|~_)_ __)_|~_   Learning and Teaching
Department of English      )_ __)_|_)__ __)     Development Office
St. Thomas University        |  )____) |        EMAIL: hunt@unb.ca
Fredericton, New Brunswick___|____|____|____/  FAX: (506) 450-9615
E3B 5G3   CANADA          \                / PHONE: (506) 452-7700
                       ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 09:47:58 CST
From:         Irvin Peckham <peckham@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Standard English
              92 10:05 am

Raul:
I appreciate that quote from Gramsci, but it sponsers a line of
thinking that I worry about.  One, it privileges speakers of
many languages (I would argue that in this context, dialects
are not that different from languages); two, it privileges the
ultra-educated.  One then wonders about Gram. or others who
agree with this complex-langauge/complex-thought thesis and who
are actively promoting a self-privileging argument (my complex
language reflects my complex thought--and other's simple
language . . . ).  I suspect this notion might be responsible
for a lot of that garbage writing (sometimes seen in journals)
when students have decided that the way to impress their teachers
is to obscure their message, hiding nickel thoughts behind dime
words.  Also, I think one can re-examine the notion that language
and thought are coterminous.  Such a notion reinforces the
class-based notion that peasants (and all illiterates) are stupid.
--
Irvin Peckham
University of Nebraska at Omaha
peckham@unomaha.edu
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Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 21:44:21 CST
From:         Irvin Peckham <peckham@CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>
Subject:      Re: Standard English
              92 2:08 pm

> language to be masters of their own fate.  I think that it is very
> important that these "new" students be given the tools -- that is
> to say thinking, speaking and writing skills.  The reason is not
> to reproduce any social or political order -- the raison d'etre
> is so that people can lead deliberate and informed lives.
> Frankly, I do not see how one may live a deliberate and
> informed life without understanding other languages.
>
> Take care --
>
> Raul Huerta
> kendo@uc1.ucsu.edu
>

Raul:
I see that (and have also seen the rather unsophisticated use
of sophisticated language in our profession).  Contextualizing
Gramsci's statement within his prison sojourn helped to explain
his statement, too.
Irv
Now I'm thinking twice.  I don't want to cut hairs, but I suspect
that it might be as useful to learn other dialects as other
languages.  I am associating the dialects with sociopolitical
differences.
--
Irvin Peckham
University of Nebraska at Omaha
peckham@unomaha.edu
From: kendo@UC1.UCSU.EDU ((Raul A. Huerta))
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: Re: Standard English
Date: 14 Dec 92 19:08:22 GMT
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Dear Irv,

Irv,

I understand your concern about the line of thinking that "could" be
spawned from Gramsci's work.  However, one should keep in mind
that Gramsci was sitting in a Facist prison when he wrote those
thoughts.  Nonetheless, it has been my experience that within the
academy there is a premium on the ability to utilize language in
a sophisticated manner.  I do not see the culture of the academy
undergoing a significant change vis-a-vis language skills.  In fact
I find IT to be one of the most significant parts of academic
culture.   I guess the only other aspect of academic life that
looms as large is back stabbing.  I cannot express to you how
many times I have observed in committees the clucking and
wagging of tongues about the quality of a person's writing.
At the same time, I have observed a number of emerging
majority students eschew the need for understanding how
to use the master's tools (to coin a phrase).   Years later these
students will not have a sufficient command of the English
language to be masters of their own fate.  I think that it is very
important that these "new" students be given the tools -- that is
to say thinking, speaking and writing skills.  The reason is not
to reproduce any social or political order -- the raison d'etre
is so that people can lead deliberate and informed lives.
Frankly, I do not see how one may live a deliberate and
informed life without understanding other languages.

Take care --

Raul Huerta
kendo@uc1.ucsu.edu
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Date:         Thu, 17 Dec 1992 11:34:20 -0600
From:         RONRON@USU.BITNET
Subject:      Re: (Fwd: *C&CD*) RE: RE: But what can we isolated YouEssers do?
              (3)

Liz Hamp-Lyons:  I may have misunderstood you, but Germany aint multilingual.
The citizens thereof may be, and there are numerous dialects of German
spoken throughout the various provinces (and used by inhabitants of other
provinces to make fun), but there is only one German, "echtDeutsch" the
high German that is their broadcast standard. It is *the* German taught
in the schools.  Any discussion such as we routinely have in the Us
about the viability of regional dialects would be laughed to scorn.  This
means we have an interesting paradox: We have little linguistic diversity
but desire to foster it -- they have lots but want only one.  Ron Shook
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Date:         Thu, 10 Dec 1992 10:13:10 EST
From:         "Christopher J. Moore" <eng1cjm@HIBBS.VCU.EDU>
Subject:      Composition Digest

Hi.

I've been a subscriber to the Composition Digest list for a while now because
I was intrigued by its description in the list of lists.  However, almost
every article I receive from the list server seems to be 90% identical to MBU
postings.  (Also, even though the list of lists describes CD as a weekly
newsgroup, I usually get daily postings.)  Has the purpose of CD changed,
perhaps, since I received my copy of the list of lists, or is MBU just so
superior that the folks at CD decided, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em?

--Chris Moore
Virginia Commonwealth University
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Date:         Thu, 10 Dec 1992 21:42:05 -0600
From:         tmmyers@IASTATE.EDU
Subject:      daedalus novices

Joe and Michelle:

After a transcript has been compacted and put into text, another interesting
exercise is to have the students evaluate the transcript in terms of the
argumentative techniques they used during the discussion.  A colleague of
mine did this this semester and said it worked quite well.

This seems to be a good use of the transcripts from the conversations.  Not
only will the students be able to use the transcripts for sources in their
own papers, but they will also be able to see how they went about agruing
a topic.  This seems quite valuable in an argumentative/rhetorical classroom
setting; not only do they get the chance to see how the
"professional" writers write and argue, they can also see that they have some
of the skills necessary to argue well.  Identifying these skills in their
conversations only opens their eyes to what they could be capable of doing.

tim myers
iowa state university
tmmyers@iastate.edu
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Date:         Fri, 11 Dec 1992 15:50:32 -0500
From:         STU_K1SPENGL@JMUVAX.BITNET
Subject:      sign me off!

I hate to clog up the system with this annoying message, but I will be
going home for Christmas and need to sign off of this forum.  I have
been trying for the past few days, but the system will not let me sign off!!!
Is there anything you can tell me that will help??????  Please send me any
advice you have!!
                                               Kristin Spengler
                                       "stu_k1spengl@jmu.acs.edu"
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Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 20:51:47 EST
From:         mer <MROSE01@UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject:      Re: (Fwd: *C&CD*) Appropriate discussion for me? (9)

Tim:

WELCOME to MBU!!!!  We're glad to have you, *especially* for your extra-
academic perspective, and your expertise in software, and you're gentle
ethos.

best wishes,

mer the turgidproserator
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Date:         Thu, 10 Dec 1992 15:56:59 CST
From:         Bob Whipple <whippl@PARROT.CREIGHTON.EDU>
Subject:      Re: (Fwd: *C&CD*) Help for Daedalus Novices! (15)
              Digest" at Dec 9, 92 10:03 pm

>
> Entry: 15
> Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1992 10:04 EST
> From: Joe Essid <ESSID@URVAX.BITNET>
> Subject: Help for Daedalus Novices! (15)
> Message-id: <01GS3WFMKB00004X1R@urvax.urich.edu>
> Reply-to: Computers & Composition Digest (R. Royar) <R0MILL01@ULKYVX.BITNET>
> Lines: 33
>
>
>
> Dear MBUers:
>
> Next semester we will be using Daedalus Interchange in
> our Writing Lab.  We're running the DOS version on
> 20 networked 386 machines.  WE NEED HELP!!
>
> First, we have two questions:
>
> 1) Since we've only got Interchange (our University
> Computing folks decided not to buy the other modules)
> we're not certain how much text students can save as
> ASCII.  Can the contents of an entire conference be
> saved, or only the text in the Editor window?
>
The entire conference is saved when you (through Utilities, I assume)
select the End an Interchange Session option.  It's saved to a dated,
named textfile (ex: mine frome today would be (for my 2nd class)
WHIPPLE2.D10) in the Daedalus/papers directory--at least in our integrated
 setup.  Standalone may be different.  So far, I know of no way to save _only_
 the
contents of an individual editor window.


> 2) Can we print out the contents of a conference?
>
Yes--simply call the textfile (see above) into your word processor--the
text, if not ASCII, is darn close to it--we call it up in Wperfect all
the time--and print it out.  Or have your students save it on their
own disks and print it out on their own time.

> These questions may appear bone headed, but we're just
> bone-heads lost in the (virtual) woods at this point.
> Yet we're very excited to have synch. communication in
> our lab.
>
> We'd also love to pick your brains about good assignment
> topics for labs using Daedalus Interchange.
>
Group brainstorming
takin' attendance
peer group editing, response
small/large group discussion...we use it for so many things that I can't think
 of them all in a few minutes.  Send me a note via my email address telling
what you specifically want and I promise I'll reply--and maybe get the
other Daedalus teachers here to respond, too


Good luck!


> Virtually,
>
> Joe Essid  Univ. of Richmond
> (Essid@urvax.urich.edu or Essid@urvax.bitnet)
>
> Michelle Roberts
> (Robertsna@urvax.urich.edu or Robertsna@urvax.bitnet)
>
> ------------------------------
>


--
Bob Whipple
Director of Composition		Creighton University
2500 California Plaza		Omaha, NE 68178
(402) 280-2534			rhetoric@creighton.edu
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Original_To:  BITNET%"mbu-l@ttuvm1.bitnet"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Sat, 19 Dec 1992 23:32:00 EDT
From:         "Composition Digest (Robert Royar,
              Moderator)" <R0MILL01@ULKYVX.BITNET>
Subject:      (Fwd: *C&CD*) RE: (Fwd: *C&CD*) Appropriate discussion for me?
              (9) (*COMP.COMP*) (5)

Entry: 5
Date: 16 Dec 92 15:09:16 GMT
From: agate!dog.ee.lbl.gov!b50-afrd4.lbl.gov!user@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (Joe Chew)
Subject: RE: (Fwd: *C&CD*) Appropriate discussion for me? (9) (*COMP.COMP*) (5)
Message-id: <JTCHEW-161292070935@b50-afrd4.lbl.gov>
Organization: Honest Ernie's Used Ions
Reply-to: comp.edu.composition <compos01%ulkyvx.bitnet@ucbvax.Berkeley.edu>

You might also try misc.writing, where there hangeth out a few
tech writers and journalists.

Random Usenet Rule #33:  Ask people whether a newsgroup is appropriate
for you, and they'll tell you whether it is appropriate for them.  :)

Joe
"Broken English is the official language of science"
                         -- Francois Kourilsky, CNRS

------------------------------
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Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 17:25:57 EST
From:         smh@AAL.ITD.UMICH.EDU
Subject:      standard english

I just saw part of a videotape called "Yo Dude, Cosa Wena Kyk A?" which
describes a multi-language classroom in South Africa.  A "Language
Activity Class" makes use of the linguistic diversity to help
all the (elementary-school) students learn about languages and grammars,
to help them enjoy their languages.  The students do things like
compare plural formations in different languages and try to
generate rules for that.  Unfortunately I only got to see half
of the tape.  Jim's Alabama teacher would have fit right in there.
Susanmarie Harrington
English Composition Board
University of Michigan
Ann Arbor MI 48109-1003
smh@aal.itd.umich.edu
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Date:         Thu, 10 Dec 1992 09:12:04 -0700
From:         HATCHG@JKHBHRC.BYU.EDU
Subject:      Re: What is Hypertext?

While we are on the subject of Hypertext, where is a good place for
the novice programmer to begin?  Is there a reference work that
introduces Hypertext to those with marginal computer literacy?

Gary Hatch
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Sat, 12 Dec 1992 15:55:30 MST
From:         "David E. Schwalm" <IACDES@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Subject:      monolingualism

Jokes at the expense of American monolingualism are easy. Learning a language
other than English in the US is hard, insofar as it is hard to learn a
language when there is no real consistent pressing need to use it. As a rule,
students graduating with BA degrees in language from US colleges may achieve
level 3 (of 5) on the oral proficiency interview--while demonstrating a
somewhat higher competence is reading. A marginal 3 in oral proficiency is not
too good; it JUST qualifies a person for a foreign service assignment. It is
extremely difficult to become bilingual in most places in the US. The
socio-linguistic pressures to achieve proficiency simply aren't there.

-- David E. Schwalm, Assoc. Provost for Academic Programs
___Arizona State University West
___4701 West Thunderbird Rd.
___Phoenix, AZ 85069-7100___(602) 543-4500
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Date:         Thu, 10 Dec 1992 12:09:52 EST
From:         Karla Saari Kitalong <KITALONG@MTUS5.CTS.MTU.EDU>
Subject:      Request for information (again)

Once again, I'm appealing to one of my most productive sources of help
and advice. This is  unrelated to computers and writing (although if we
stretch the point, I'm in computers and writing and it relates to me, soooo...)

The Professional Women's Caucus here at Michigan Tech is
in the process of recommending that the university institute paid
professional leave (like sabbatical leave) for professional staff. Does
your institution have such a thing? Can you tell me how it works or put me
in touch with appropriate people?

Please reply privately to avoid cluttering up the list with non-c&w-related
discussion. I appreciate the generosity of the collegues on this list, who
are amazingly tolerant of digressions like this one...

Reply to me - Karla Kitalong (kitalong@mtus5.bitnet)
or to Mary Zanoni (mmzanoni@mtus5.bitnet)
From: C509379@MIZZOU1.BITNET (Eric Crump)
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Subject: where did computers & writing go?
Date: 16 Dec 92 17:27:40 GMT
Comments: Gated by NETNEWS@AUVM.AMERICAN.EDU

I loooked high and low in the CCCC convention preview but did not
detect evidence of a computer & writing (or writing & computers or
computers & computers) workshops.

Am I too blind to see the subtle clues embedded cleverly in the
program, or are we really doing without a C & W workshop this
year? And if we're giving it a miss, does anybody know WHY?

Is this for lack of workshops proposed? Some bias on the part of
the program committee? An indication that nothing worth workshopping
is going on in this field ;)

The workshop put on by Trent & Fred & Diane (and an impressive
supporting cast) was terrific. I was hoping for something similar
this year.

Rats.

Eric Crump
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Original_To:  BITNET%"MBU-L@TTUVM1.BITNET"
Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Mon, 14 Dec 1992 10:07:00 CDT
From:         Amanda Corcoran <YKFAC@TTACS.BITNET>
Subject:      RE: Dyslexia and Writing

Rose

You must be inundated with replies to your request for help re:
your ld student, but here's my advice--don't we all have some?  I
spent a year working on a specially funded project (from a grant)
teaching LD classes in Freshling Engl on networked Mac computers.

We used the Daedalus system and found the whole experience
invaluable for the students. Most, if not all, of my students
found writing easier on the computers. They definitely found it
easier to read (LD writing is notoriously scruffy), and they
loved the spellchecking.

Of course, LD is more than spelling errors. (I'm avoiding the
word "dyslexia" because I believe, from my Knowledge, that the
term is a blanket term for many types of dyslexia. However, the
term is also mistakenly believed to be just one specific type of
reading./writing problem. There are many types of dyslexia as far
as I know.)  But the spellchecker certainly provided the students
with a security blanket of a sort.

Of course, Ld writers often have problems organizing their
thoughts and ideas. Computers seemed to help most of the students
there too since cutting and pasting were so easy.

Adjustable font, higlighting specific text for visibility--all
were invaluable to many of my students.

Of course, Computers are not a cure-all, and as someone (sorry_I
can't remember who) pointed out, some LD students may find it
harder to read the text on screen than on paper. Options for this
student could include varying the text size and font, color of
background for the screen (studies have revealed different color
screens can facilitate students's reading of text), and different
filters to fit over the screen.

I don't suggest that computers will help every LD student
therefore. I do believe that it offers an important option for
them.  If they do find reading on the computer hard ( I find it
hard to read my own text sometimes on screen particularly when
I'm in the editing stage), then perhaps printing hard copies will
help/


ANyway, I would definitely try the computer as an option. It's
worked well in my experience with LD students and their writing.

Amanda Inskip Corcoran--Texas Tech
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Date:         Sun, 13 Dec 1992 11:23:59 AST
Comments:     <13DEC92.12343001.0047.MUSIC@UNB.CA>
From:         Russ Hunt <HUNT@UNB.CA>
Subject:      monolingualism, LD, Standard English, and standards

David Schwalm's comment links the two currnt threads on MBU:
> Jokes at the expense of American monolingualism are easy. Learning a language
> other than English in the US is hard, insofar as it is hard to learn a
> language when there is no real consistent pressing need to use it.    a rule,
     If you think of learning a new dialect (or grapholect) like
academic English or academic written English as learning a new
language, this gives us a slightly different way to think of the
problems faced by my students from rural New Brunswick who bring
their dialects with them to university, a context where "there is
no real consistent pressing need" (nice phrase, that) to learn
the new language(s) of academia.
                                    -- Russ
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Newsgroups: bit.listserv.mbu-l
Date:         Tue, 15 Dec 1992 20:36:00 PST
From:         Lisa Gerrard <IDR2LXG@UCLAMVS.BITNET>
Subject:      What is Hypertext?

Gary, the best introduction I know to hypertext is Claris' HyperCard
Development Kit--software plus well-written manuals. The tutorial was
written for novices and is probably the clearest tutorial I've ever seen.

There are also a number of books that show how to work in HyperCard;
the one I have is Rebecca Gold's HyperCard 2/Quickstart, published by Que.

Lisa Gerrard
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