Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: PORTLAND: American Front (Hate group) transcript
From: kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay)
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 07:24:54 GMT
Followup-To: alt.censorship
 <1992Dec10.200919.18060@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> <1992Dec15.004328.23916@oracle.us.oracle.com>
Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac

In article <1992Dec15.004328.23916@oracle.us.oracle.com> rchilder@us.oracle.com (Richard Childers) writes:

>kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) writes:

>( regarding the support of censorship where unpopular voices are concerned )

>>> rchilder@us.oracle.com (Richard Childers) writes:

>>>I can also provide personal email from _you_, Ken, where you _do_, and you
>>>defend it, too.

>>>Shall I ?

>>Since I can't recall ever asking for b-cpu's removal from the system, sure -
>>you have my permission to post my letter, just to refresh my memory.

>Here you go ... this isn't actually your mail, just the snippets I replied
>to, but it gets the gist across. ( There are _lots_ of these snippets em-
>-bedded in our conversations from back then. )

I see - you tell the world you are going to prove, by virtue of my own
personal mail to you, that I supported the censorship of b-cpu.

In response, I invite you to do that. You initiate your response by telling
me that "this isn't actually your mail," i.e. forget context. Fair enough -
you are honest about it.

You then provide an allegation that I "consort" with someone or other, but
you don't provide context, so no-one reading this will have any more idea
what you were referring to than I do. I love the regular use of the
emotionally loaded insults, like "consort," but that's another issue
entirely.

>>|>   You consort with those whose intention is explicitly just that, and I sort
>>|>   of doubt that you are oblivious of their ethical proximity ...

My reply, which I recall writing, is perfectly clear, and _absolutely_
contrary to your assertion that I supported the
censorship/harassment/whatever of b-cpu....

>> "No, I do not. The folks I work closely with all understand that no good
>>  purpose is served by driving them underground - we want them right up front,
>>  where everyone can examine them."

Even you understood my meaning, or at least that which you elected to
understand:

>> Then maybe we are in agreement.

Lest I find myself getting smug, however, that you have supported my
assertion and disproved your own, you conclude:

>So, here we see an open acknowledgement that you "work closely with" certain
>folks whom share your goals - which are the cessation of Nazism ( a goal you
>admit is not only impossible, above, but which works against your long-term
>interests ), and the elimination of B-CPU in particular.

There's that lack of context again - however, since you didn't bother to
provide it, I will. At the time you received that reply, I was in email
contact with perhaps five other netters. We supported each other in the
effort to deal with b-cpu's behavior.

By "supported," I mean to say that we exchanged research notes and other
information, and provided whatever we could in the way of resource contacts,
i.e. university library bibliographies, etc. We did this specifically to
deal with Holocaust denial - these folks, for the most part, are the same
folks who now subscribe to the Holocaust mailing list. I have never met any
of them, although I've spoken to two of them on the phone once or twice.

Insofar as we all wished, for our own reasons, to discredit Holocaust
denial, then it is fair to say, as you did, that we "shared a goal." 

Bringing about the "cessation of Nazism" was not a goal of mine; quite
frankly, I didn't give it any thought at all in that context. I'm old
enough, and experienced enough, and even cynical enough, if you will, not to
waste time on smoke and mirror shows. Do I have "long term interests?" Show
me a living human being that doesn't - mine is primarily wrapped around
living long enough to see my grand-children married and dropping more
critters.  

B-CPU, as you may know, hasn't been eliminated - I seriously doubt that
anyone would bother. They are alive and vile, right there in Portland.
Personally, I'd _still_ rather have them right here, where I could chat with
them on a regular basis.

>The "work" you were doing included tutoring people, not in how to use Kill
>files in general, but how to use them explicitly for B-CPU, specifically.
>( I don't necessarily disagree with this desire, but insist that it sets a
>pretty ugly example for the new kids on the block. )

You bet I did - and I'll do it again when they get back to UseNet again.
Once again you fail to establish your proof - telling someone how to use a
KILL file is a far cry from "consorting" with people in an effort to get the
system shut down. If that disturbs you, argue it somewhere more appropriate
- it's been argued to death in all the groups frequented by the Mutlu
clones, among others.

>In another of your emails, you noted that you were pretty old and didn't
>expect to be around too many more years.

I'm old enough to recognize nonsense when I see it.

>If you don't recall, I responded then - and now - with the request that you
>not corrupt this communications channel with activities - such as censor-
>-ship - that will leave the rest of us with a mess to clean up, long after
>you've left the scene.

Your normal tone, so ably illustrated above, is the reason I stopped
corresponding with you - it was a waste of time. Have you ever learned to
correspond with someone without that patronizing, insulting tone?

So, Richard - I am still waiting for the mail you claim to have with will
prove that I supported the censorship of b-cpu. Please provide it.

>It's common courtesy ...

You rarely exhibit much of that.

followup to alt.censorship
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