From: tahajian@aries.East.Sun.COM (David Tahajian - Sun BOS Software)
Newsgroups: rec.gambling
Subject: Re: WRGPT II Rules change, anyone?
Date: 22 Dec 1992 18:38:42 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Billerica MA
Reply-To: tahajian@east.sun.com (David Tahajian - Sun BOS Software)
NNTP-Posting-Host: aries.east.sun.com

In article <18215@autodesk.COM> jamesr@Autodesk.COM (James Rowell) writes:
>tahajian@aries.East.Sun.COM (David Tahajian - Sun BOS Software) writes:
>> In article <18193@autodesk.COM> jamesr@Autodesk.COM (James Rowell) writes:
>> >
>> >Conversely I'd like to see a way to force players to speed up who
>> >continually take a long time to bet BUT don't time-out.  For example,
>> >there are several players at my table who have repeatedly caused lengthy
>> >delay only to fold, and I'm sure in most of these cases an advance bet
>> >could have been made.  Getting several such players in one pot means it
>> >takes forever to complete.  Hence the slow tables.
>
>> Come on now... are you really saying that you've never made an advance
>> bet only to have it bounce back to you when someone raises?
>> For example, the bet starts at $500, and you send a "make $500" advance
>> bet and go home for the day, thinking that you were a good guy by speeding
>> up the game with your advance bet. Someone else raises, and you come in the 
>> next day, only to find your advance bet was "insufficient". You then decide 
>> to fold. The other players may see you doing a "big delay and fold", but 
>> they have no idea that you even made an advance bet to begin with. 
>> See my point?
>
>Yes I see your point.  But if, as you say, the bet had been started
>at $500 couldn't you just send in the bet "call $500" in most of these
>situations?  "call $500" accomplishes the same result that you
>described and doesn't cause a delay.

Unfortunatly, the "call $x" command will "call any bet up to $x,
fold otherwise" (from the Email doc). Depending on how much is in
the pot, my hole cards, who made the raise, how many calls/re-raises
there are, and so on, I may not want to "fold otherwise". I almost
*always* want to have the option of either calling or re-raising,
thus I personally never use the "call $x" command just for that reason.

Because of this, it may look like I'm taking a long time, but
I'm just considering all my options before making a final decision
(which may be folding). Again, to you and the other players, it
seems like I'm stalling, when in fact I'm just making a new decision
based on new information that was not avaiable at the time I made my 
advance bet decision.

>For the sake of argument, let's say it started at $100.  You want to
>make it $500 and, as in your example, fold if a larger bet has been made
>in front of you.  

I realize that I did not state this before, but in my example, I did not 
want to "fold on a larger bet".  I want to make a new decision, which is 
why I used "make $500" instead of "call $500" in my example (sorry if
I did not clarify this).

>Now, correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the
>plain-old "$500" command do that? I.e., it'll make the bet $500 or fold
>if insufficient?  If it doesn't maybe it should work that way.
>
It was my understanding that the plain old dollar bets can only be used 
when it's your turn, and cannot be used as an advance bet (I may be wrong 
on this since I've never tried it). Regardless, if you wanted to do what 
you've described, you could use the "call $500" bet. Again, for my
own reasons, I never would use the "call" command because of the 
automatic fold feature.

>Aside:
>
>Some of you may want to make your decisions based upon the pot odds
>which you can't determine until its your turn.  Perhaps the addition
>of a variable which holds the current value of the pot can be provided.
>Then (after tons of hard work to code in the new feature :-)) you could
>send in the advanced command
>
>    if ( $pot > $5000 ) { call $1000 } else { call $500 };
>
>I'm sure we could come up with a simple language to allow us to express
>all the kinds of decisions we need to make when deciding how to act.
>Like, who has acted before us?  Who raised?  Etc...
>
Well, then you also may want "if person X raised, fold, else if person
Y raised, call, else if person Z rasied by less than $1000, re-raise ..."
It can get really complicated real fast!

I'm sure you will agree with me that betting decisions in poker are not 
supposed to be based solely upon a fixed set of rules. While mathematical 
rules to compute such things as pot odds vs. odds in making your expected 
hand are to be used, betting also includes a combination of intuition, 
emotion, and sometimes a good old gut feeling. This can't be descibed in 
a "simple language"! :-) 

I'm not trying to harass you Jim, you do have a valid concern about 
speeding up your game, and I'd hate to be stuck on a real slow table
myself. I'm only saying that poker is a game of patience, stamina, and 
other similiar qualities. Maybe the guys at your table are slow playing 
on purpose to get under your skin (I've seen it plenty of times in real 
life). I know that if I was playing in a real game with an impatient player, 
I would definitly use that to my advantage (as any good player would).

As long as the players stay within the boundaries of the rules, which in 
this case allows for up to 12 hours to make a decision, it's all part of 
the game. 

==========================================================================
Dave Tahajian                      | "YOU CALLED ME?!?" - What the AQ high
david.tahajian@east.sun.com        | player said to the winning AK player
Sun Microsystems, Billerica, Ma.   | at my 7-stud table in Foxwoods, CT.
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