From: wood@eisley.akita.com (Ken Wood)
Newsgroups: seattle.general
Subject: Re: Travelling armed
Summary: There's lots wrong with waiting periods
Keywords: Guns laws crime murder waiting periods 
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 92 06:10:43 PDT
Organization: Mos Eisley Spaceport BBS


In article <1992Jul25.190522.3951@eskimo.celestial.com>
           alpinist@eskimo.celestial.com (David Butler) Writes:

>     But still, I wonder, nobody is really trying to make the ridiculous
>statement that the proliferation of guns in this society has nothing to do
>with the murder rate, are they?  That does seem to be the general impression
>that some people are trying to express. 

     Certainly not me.  I do believe however that a complete ban on all 
firearms would have little effect on the murder rate.  It would reduce 
it by a little but not by much perhaps 10% ( that's a WAG folks ).  Most 
crimes involving firearms, including murder, are commited with illegal 
firearms to begin with.  If we really want to reduce the murder rate we 
have to affect the underlying social problems in our society.  That and 
try to curb the trend toward violence in this country.  I have theories 
on this but I'll save them for later, hint: look at proabition.

>(What the heck is wrong with a waiting
>period on a hand gun purchase anyway?) 

     Well here are a few things I see that are wrong with it.

1)  It is a constitutional right.  Anybody in favor of a waiting period 
on Free Speech, protection from property seizure, or the quartering of 
soldiers?  Why is a one day waiting period for an abortion ( oops, I 
just opened another can of worms ) a travesty of justice but a 5, 7, or 
15 day waiting period on a handgun purcahse ok?  I have heard many 
people claim both of these things.

2)  As I have said before a waiting period can often be used as a 
complete ban ( this is the case of the "Brady Bill" ).  Yes this can be 
avoided if the law if well written and carefully screened but most of 
the current laws/proposals are not.

     Now some will say that these are weak concepts ( the second one is 
) or that there are no concrete real world reasons.  I feel the first 
two, especialy the first, is but I will present another below.

3)  Some people WILL NEED A HANDGUN BEFORE THE WAITING PERIOD IS UP!  
Many people do not own firearms ( I am one of them ).  However these 
people can be placed in a position where their life is in danger.  
Victims of stalkers, people recieving death threats, persons witnessing 
a crime or who testify against a criminal.  Recently a woman started to be 
the target of a stalker.  He even threatened her life.  ( This is a REAL 
life event )  She went to purchase a firearm but she lived in a state 
with a waiting period.  So she bought a handgun on the blackmarket.  
That night he attacked her and she shot him.  The police ruled it self 
defense.  If she had obayed the law she would probably be dead, at 
least the police thought there was a pretty good chance of this.  But 
wait there's more.  Sherman set the wayback machine to Killian Texas.

     Now this is not a case of waiting periods but rather the right to 
carry a handgun in public ( concealed carry ).  George Hennard drove his 
pickup into Lubbies Cafe and started to shoot the customers.  A tragedy 
that could have been avoided by gun controll, NOT!  Hennard had 
purchased his 2 firearms a long time before the incident and was 
carrying them illegaly.  Haveing been in the merchant marine he could 
have perchased them in a foreign country if they had been completly 
unavailable in this country  ( an unlikely event even under a complete 
ban on firearms ).  Anyway back to the story.  Hennard proceded to shoot 
all the customers he could see.  This took quite a while as he had one 
of his guns jam twice before he finaly gave up stopping to clear it and 
disgarded it.  Also he stopped several times to reload!  Now at Lubbies 
there was a doctor and her parents haveing dinner.  Untill a short while 
before this she had caried a handgun in her purse.  This was illegal but 
she traveled alot on some isolated country roads and was worried about 
being attacked.  In Texas it is impossible for a average citizen to 
obtain a license to carry a handgun in public.  She started leaving her 
handgun locked in her car since she figured that any time she was likely 
to need it she would be with her car, and she was afraid of being caught 
carrying the gun illegaly.  Keeping it in her car was still illegal but 
she felt she was less likely to get caught.  It was sitting in her car 
when Hennard came in.  She has testified before congress and several state 
legislatures that several times she had what would have been clear shots at 
Hennard at ranges that would make it relativly easy for her to hit. ( All 
the patrons were staying down and Hennard was makeing no attempt at evasion 
or takeing cover, much of the time he had his back to her. )  While 
Hennard was not paying attention to them her father charged him.  He 
made it most of the way before he was shot.  Her mother was shot trying 
to help her wounded husband.  Both died.  How many of the 23 dead could 
have been saved?  We don't know but certainly some could have including 
both her parents.

4)  And lastly on what is wrong with a waiting period.  LA.  California 
has a 15 day waiting period.  Alot of people didn't realize what this 
meant till the riots started and they wanted to get a firearm to defend 
themselves or their buisnesses.  Of course we all know what happened.  
The businesses that were defended remained intact and those that were 
not burned.  In some blocks ONLY the defended buildings were standing.   

     I think that these are all good reasons why a waiting period is not 
such a good idea.  Remember the courts have ruled that the police are 
under NO obligation to protect you, even after you have called them.  
They are required to protect society in general but NOT the individual.  
This is fact, the courts have ruled this way on more than one occasion.  
You can't count on the police to protect YOU, it's not there job.


>     It is much easier to defend yourself against someone violent who doesn't
>have a gun.  If someone pulls out a 6 inch knife and I grab an 18 inch tire
>iron from under my car seat we are fairly evenly matched.  I can outrun 
>someone with a knife or baseball bat.  (You can't outrun a bullet) It is
>much easier to deflect a blow from a weapon where a person must get within
>reaching distance to use it.

     Generaly true, but it is also much easier to defend yourself WITH a 
firearm.  In your example above what if the potential victim is my 
grandmother ( well she'd kick his butt but you get the idea :-) ) or 
your pregnate wife, or somebody who is handicaped?  How well will they 
do running away or with the tire iron?  Obviously it depends on the 
person but you get the idea.  For some people self defense is not all 
that easy.  Did you know that currently the fastest growing market for 
handguns ( legal ones that is ) is single women?  Not suprising since 
guns have been called the "great equalizer".  If you really want I can 
post the numbers on the incidence of injury and the success rates for 
various methods of defense against rape.  Big supprise the category for 
firearms is the best of all.  

     Well this has really been a good discussion so far.  Even when we 
all disagree it has been pretty much flame free.  If only other news 
groups could do this.  Sigh.  Wishfull thinking at best.
  
     Ken Wood




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