Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy
From: dnavas@oracle.uucp (David Navas)
Subject: Re: NO MORE *&#*$(^*& FEMALE BIMBO ADS!!!!!!!!
Followup-To: poster
Organization: Oracle Corporation, Redwood Shores CA
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 18:05:06 GMT
X-Disclaimer: This message was written by an unauthenticated user
              at Oracle Corporation.  The opinions expressed are those
              of the user and not necessarily those of Oracle.

My first and last word on this ridiculous thread.  If you really want to
get into a discussion about what I say -- please email me.

In article <Paula_Lieberman.071c@amicol.UUCP> Paula_Lieberman@amicol.UUCP (Paula Lieberman) writes:
>re article by Dennis Heffernan: Have YOU ever been whistled at for being
>-male-?  

Alas, no.

>I bet you wouldn't like it one bit......

I bet I'd be talking about it for weeks.  I would positively -love- to be
found attractive.  Unfortunately, there's very little call for 5'4"
males....

>last guy who pinched me
>on th ass because he thought he was being cute, I pinched right back. He

Good!

>was NOT happy about that -- tough.

Well, that was pretty lame, actually.  How are you -supposed- to reciprocate
honest flirting?

>How would -you- like to be treated to a male mode showing off Amigas,

I don't think I have much to worry about there.
Alas.

>flirting with -you-,

I'm not so sure I would enjoy men flirting with me.
Hmm, actually, I remember when one time walking down Berkeley streets, somebody
did -- I found it extraordinarily uncomfortable.  Mostly because I'm not
homosexual, I suppose....
Now, on the otherhand, being grabbed by a random girl (who had had far
too much to drink at the time) was interesting -- had she actually been older
than 16 or so, it might have been enjoyable :(  [That's what I get for looking
younger than I am, I suppose.]

>or how would you like to have a male whistle at you, boy

I would find that uncomfortable -- female whistles would be something else
entirely.  It would do wonders for my ego, for one thing.

>[since you don't seem to realize that a female over teenage age who's a
> professional is a WOMAN, not a "girl" --

So a female over teenage age that isn't a professional is NOT a woman?

Paula, you have the absolute right to defend your own rights.  Do not assume
that responsibility for anyone else.  First off, you can't.  Secondly, they
may not want you to anyway.  Whistling, despite your best efforts to make it
appear so, is not illegal in the US.  40-50 years ago, it was rude NOT to
whistle at a woman (including the homeliest of them) in parts of Central
America.

Does that make them (me?) backwards barbarians, or does it make them different?
Do you [speaking to Paula and Mike] think that, just maybe, the diversity of
this country is wide enough to support:
	a) Women that enjoy being whistled at
	b) Women that do not
	c) Women who are professionals and would kick your butt if you ever
	   called them girls
	d) Women who are not professionals who would do the same
	e) Women who are bright enough to realize that there is a
	   distinction between what people say and what people mean
	f) Men that are not stupid?

Would you believe everything except for f)?  :)

One of the important things in "all getting along" is providing the common
respect for -individual- rights.  This is distinct from "group" rights.
Speaking of all "women" and all "men" as if they were homogenous groups
damages relationships between us as individuals because it simplifies the
complex issues that we actually need to deal with on our day-to-day life.

Most important to "getting along" is understanding issues from someone
else's point-of-view.  While I would never whistle at a woman, I can
understand that there may be societies (even subcultures within America)
where it is -not- considered offensive.  -I- personally could use a little
bit of whistling in my direction... (watch out for my girlfriend's
frying pan -- she's got a wicked arm ;) ).

Some of the worst of the LA riots stem from both racism AND misunderstanding
between the races.  It's a shame that we learned nothing from this -- each
of us is an individual.  I'm 50% hispanic -- do I relate to the "hispanic"
community, no.  Am I hispanic, you better believe it!  Which little box do I
fill in on all those "race" forms "hispanic not white" or "white not hispanic"?
My sister and I are both disgusted by such things (interesting note, she's in
Spain right now...).

Really, Paula prefers not to be whistled at, pinched, and have her peers
displayed as bubbling, fawning nincompoops drapped over relatively worthless
pieces of plastic and metal.  A vast majority of society enjoys seeing
boobs, hairy and hairless chests and lots of rumpled sheets during daytime
soaps.  Paula, on the otherhand, seems to believe she has some kind of
"moral" superiority on this issue.  Unfortunately, this is neither for her
to judge, nor for us.  We know what we believe, and we can attempt to convince
those who do not believe as we believe, but making sweeping statements --
on either side of the issue, is not conducive to useful, intellectual
exchange on any of this.

That said, I find Americans' (including my own) preoccupation with sex
disturbing.

>so, how do you like being called, "boy" -- or does that not bother you,
>boy...]

It does not.  Unless you mean it to be condescending, in which case it still
does not.  Why?  Because I'm not insecure as to my relative worth to
society -- that many women seem to be (and that, recently, many men seem to
be) shows that there is a larger issue to deal with -- and that the
distinction made between "boy-girl" and "man-woman" is hardly going to fix the
real problem.  Referring to Man-hat-ten as the burrough of
People-Clothing-Number does nothing to solving societal injustices and
differences between the sexes and the races....
David C. Navas						dnavas@oracle.com
Working for, but not speaking on behalf of, Oracle Corp.
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy