From: judi@wam.umd.edu (Jay T Stein -- clap on, clap off)
Subject: Claptrap or not?  You decide. (formerly: Jay Stein stops...)
Originator: judi@rac2.wam.umd.edu
Organization: WACDTF, Washington, D.C.
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 10:38:51 GMT

Is there any point to this?  Who knows.  I am one of the lesser read
posters to this newsgroup, but I'd like to think I've established
enough credibility to withstand the kind of bankrupt attacks that
Doug has seen fit to launch at me.  But assumptions are dangerous,
so I will continue this debate.  At least it'll make *me* feel better.

[Side note:  Doug, I think even a neutral observer would agree that your
 behavior in this thread is less than honorable.  When I started it
 originally, you posted a response that quoted *only* the subject line
 and included no text.  Then you made a blatant assertion about my
 intent in that post, one which would not have withstood the test of
 reading the original article had you chosen not to delete it.  Next,
 you consistently ignored replies from me in which I explicitly said
 I did not accuse all pro-lifers of supporting Bray, even as you
 continued to claim that I did.  You threw ad hominem at me, again
 without posting evidence to support your claim.  You quoted me out
 of context (removing everything but the subject line might be the
 most blatant example yet) and generated an entire sub-thread based
 on your attack on me, an attack that is motivated by who knows
 what.  Take a valium, Mr. Holtsinger - you scream too much. ]

What: <1992Nov5.202416.28786@ncsu.edu>
Who:  dsholtsi@csl36h.csl.ncsu.edu (Doug Holtsinger)

>> = Jay T Stein
>>>= Doug Holtsinger

>>> And I also do not approve
>>> of Jay Stein's insinuations that prolifers condone these bombings. 
>
>> Ah, but prolifers *do* condone these bombings.  Not *all* prolifers, but
>> a plurality of pro-lifers.  How do I know this?  'cause I've asked a huge
     =========
dumb word on my part.  I might better have said, "a significant number"

>> number of them, and a disturbing percentage of them think it's okay.
>
>Gosh, Jay Stein says that a plurality of pro-lifers condone
>abortion clinic bombings.   He even asked a "huge" number of
>them to support his conclusion.  I'm really convinced now.

Let me get this straight.  I spend almost three years asking pro-lifers
I encounter whether they approve of clinic bombings.  "Yes" is not an
uncommon answer.  I'm not permitted to report this?  Okay, I'll give you
more information:

For three years I have been a clinic escort.  For the first year I was
present only at Operation Rescue blockades, but for the last two years
I have escorted at clinics every Saturday.  The protesters that I
encounter on a week-to-week basis are not of the O.R. stripe, and they
do not host clinic blockades.  Paradoxically enough, though, a lot
of them seem to condone bombings - of the three 'regulars' at one
clinic, two of them said they think it's okay.  At blockades I ask as
many people as I can what they think, and a disturbing number say they
think it's okay.  How many is "disturbing?"  Percentagewise, not many -
maybe 10% of those I ask.  (And I would estimate that I 'interview'
between 10 and 50 people per blockade, depending on how much they want
to debate me)

And that's 10% of Pro-life activists, not 10% of pro-lifers in general.
But in absolute terms, 10% of pro-life activists condoning clinic
bombing is a real danger.  As dangerous as that is, though, there's
something else I perceive as *more* dangerous, and that is mainstream
pro-lifers who refuse to accept that this happens.  Consider one
conversation I had with a protester recently, in which she first denied
that Michael Bray was convicted.  When the details of that conviction
were pointed out to her, she denied he was a 'legit' pro-lifer.  When
she was asked what she wanted to do about him, her response was,
paraphrased, "He doesn't exist in my reality.  Why should I care?"
It is pro-lifers such as this woman, who tacitly encourage arson,
that are a big part of the reason people like Michael Bray get away
with bombing clinics - nobody seems to want to take responsibility
for the damage they could be doing - to the movement, if not the clinics.

>Just yesterday I went out and asked a "huge" number of 
>pro-lifers what they thought of Jay Stein, and they all 
>thought he had no valid arguments to support abortion.  
>
Elementary school quality rebuttal, but that's just my opinion.
Ranks right up there with such stinging, thought provoking comebacks
as "your wife is so ugly no man would have her."
--
When a man loves a woman, he supports her right to choose.

     _____     __      __      Pro-woman,      /   -=* Jay T Stein *=-
   |   |      |  \    /        Pro-family,    /
   |   |  in  |   |  |         Pro-child,    <  Internet: judi@wam.umd.edu
|__|   |      |__/    \__      PRO-CHOICE.    \    GEnie: J.STEIN18
                                               \
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