From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.polish
Subject: Re: On Polish Anti-semitism
Date: 4 Oct 92 14:34:12 GMT
Article-I.D.: Princeto.1992Oct4.143412.17395
Reply-To: roger@astro.princeton.edu (Roger Lustig)
Organization: Princeton University
Originator: news@nimaster

In article <1992Oct4.111625.17514@dxcern.cern.ch> michal@vsnmc1.cern.ch (Michal Szleper) writes:
>Roger Lustig writes:
>>In article <1992Oct3.160441.27290@dxcern.cern.ch> michal@vsnmc1.cern.ch (Michal Szleper) writes:
>> (----------------- a lot of stuff deleted for brevity -------------------)
>>YOU attempted to bring the Palestinian issue into the discussion, and will
>>not tolerate any deviation from your view of it.  It is irrelevant to a
>>discussion of Polish anti-Semitism in the first place,

>Oh no, it doesn't go this way.  The original subject referred to Polish
>anti-Semitism, but the last topic under discussion was assimilation in
>Poland versus assimilation in Israel.

"The last topic under discussion" -- meaning that yOU brought in this
irrelevancy.  I made the mistake of humoring you, and didn't make my 
answers "correct" enough.  Sorry, the header is STILL Polish anti-Semitism,
and my answer to your original diversionary question is STILL: some Arabs
are full members of Israeli society.  (I should point out that many *JEWS*
are not assimilated into Israeli society, either...)

>  So the Palestinians' case is
>not at all out of the topic.  And I don't really accept the excuse that
>Gaza is not a part of Israel, but just an occupied territory.  By whom
>is it, thou, occupied?  

No, not by me.  By thee?  But that's beside the point -- SHOULD a 
country occupying territory try to assimilate the people there?  Most
occupied people would scream bloody murder.

>And secondly, I wanted to point out that we
>should always look at a broader picture if we want to keep a trace of
>objectivity.  Nationalism is not only Poland's sin.

Which I *began* by pointing out.  Get real.

But it's *STILL* pointless to drag in the obviously aberrant case of 
Israel, a national community created by the international community
in response to a unique situation.  

And the debating tactic is an old one -- I used to hear it from
Soviets all the time when, say, the Ukraine would be mentioned.  "But
what about your massacre of the Red Indians?"  

>>                                                       and whatever is 
>>happening in Gaza is irrelevant to the fact that Israel made a long, 
>>good-faith attempt to integrate all the diverse populations within its
>>borders as much as possible.  The tragic consequences of war have led to
>>a nasty situation in the occupied territories, and some of Israel's policies
>>have exacerbated the problems.  But all this has nothing to do with the
>>fact that, when I pointed out that many Arabs are fully integrated into
>>Israeli society, you accused me of thoughtcrime akin to denying the
>>Holocaust.  I still await your apology for that and for deleting relevant
>>text.

>If you claim the question of human lifes in Gaza is an irrevelant matter,

No, you idiot.  <---- expletive.  Please note.

I claim that it's irrelevant to a DISCUSSION OF POLISH ANTI-SEMITISM.

>then it's you who really owe an apology to those poor people.  I didn't

Oh, shut up.  We don't discuss Gaza on comp.os.unix or rec.sport.baseball,
*either*-- is that further evidence of callousness?

>say the holocaust was irrevelant to me, so I don't think I owe anybody
>any apology.

Give it a rest.  But only after you apologize for your McCarthyist
tactics.

>  And especially to somebody who in public called me idiot
>and suggested I should learn to read.

Still a good idea -- and note that telling you to learn to read was
a way of *avoiding* accusing you of actual malice in misreading.  But
no, you had to go out and *prove* that you dodn't want to debate by
decent rules.

>>> why don't you express your opinion about what Jews
>>>do to the others?  I think that would be only fair.

>>Because it's irrelevant to the discussion.  

>>Also, because your request is blatantly racist.  "The Jews" are not
>                                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>responsible for Israel's conduct any more than the Polish population of
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>Chicago was responsible for Gomulka.

>What???????  Then perhaps the Poles are not responsible for Poland's
>anti-Semitism?  Sorry, this is arrogance, Roger.

Almost all Poles lived in Poland in the 1890's, say.  Most Jews do NOT
live in Israel.  To accuse the Jewish community as a whole -- by
saying "the Jews" instead of "the Israelis" is a classic anti-Semitic
tack.  I'm not accusing you of that, just of bumbling the distinction
and sounding racist.  

>>And why are you so desperate to hear *my* opinion of every detail of the
>>Palestinian situation in a discussion on Poland?

>Here we go again.  If you still don't know, read this article again.

Yes, here we go again.  Read the header again.

>Roger
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish