HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bagg@quads.uchicago.edu (matthew john baggott)
Subject: Carbs and Fat formation
Reply-To: bagg@midway.uchicago.edu
Organization: University of Chicago Computing Organizations
Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1992 06:56:01 GMT

In answer to the question about weight loss and carbohydrate intake vs
other sources of calories, Annu.Rev.Biochem 1990 59:689-710 (an
article entitled "Biochemical Aspects of Obesity") had this to say:

"The sources of nutriment have a striking influence on fat deposition.
The high caloric content of fat (9 Cal/gm) in comparison with carbohydrate
or protein (4 Cal.gm) is a deceptive influence on caloric intake.  Even
when equicaloric amounts of food are consumed, the high fat diet is more
conducive to obesity, because 3% of the calories of ingested fat are
required to convert it to adipose tissue lipid, whereas 23% of the
calories of ingested starch are expended during its conversion to
triglyceride.  These calculated values are substantiated by feeding
single supplements to rats on a basal diet...

The type of carbohydrate in the diet can also influence fat deposition.
Several investigations involving humans and rats have demonstrated
that diets containing fructose are more conducive to the synthesis of
fat and cholesterol than diets containing equicaloric amounts of
glucose or starch.  The biochemical basis for this is likely the difference
in the metabolic pathways followed by these two sugars..."

   --Matt
From: murphyg@Software.Mitel.COM (Gary Murphy)
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
Subject: Re: Does vegetarian get enough nutrition from food?
Date: 4 Sep 92 16:15:25 GMT
	<viking.715585452@vincent1.iastate.edu>
Organization: Applications Software II, MITEL Corporation, Kanata, Ontario,
	Canada
In-reply-to: viking@iastate.edu's message of 4 Sep 92 05:44:12 GMT

In article <viking.715585452@vincent1.iastate.edu> viking@iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson) writes:

	   The newsgroup talk.politics.animals is full of vegans who
   would be quite happy to answer specific questions by e-mail.

Hardly an unbiased group to consult!  I haven't the reference anymore,
but during the time some quacks (names available on request) insisted my
wife's cancer would return _unless_ she adopted such a restricted diet,
I asked a similar question in sci.med and was referred to a 1988 report
of a ten-year study conducted by the U.S. Department of Health (I think,
Fed's anyway) where they warned of the B12 deficiency dangers,
especially for imposing such diets on small children who do not have the
stores of B12 that can get adults through such a fad.  I may still have
the original quote from the report somewhere and I will try and dig it
up.

This is not to say such a diet is not possible, and there are many on
this planet who live quite comfortably in the complete absense of meat
and dairy products.  There are others who live comfortably consuming
mostly meat and fish, and no real evidence of any dangers implicit in
simply consuming animals (and chickens, which are arguably just
fast-moving plants ;-) --- there _are_ some weak indications of danger
in some of the junk commercial food-stocks are fed with, but this
_includes_ plants as well as animals.


--
Gary Lawrence Murphy - Gary.Murphy@software.mitel.COM - (613) 592-2122 x3709
Do you think you can take over the universe and improve it? - Lao-tzu
From: haydens@bullwinkle.juliet.ll.mit.edu (Hayden Schultz x3685 g42)
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
Subject: triglycerides
Date: 8 Sep 92 03:21:59 GMT
Reply-To: haydens@juliet.ll.mit.edu
Distribution: sci.med.nutrition
Organization: M.I.T. Lincoln Lab - Group 42


Ok, I'll admit it. My body is falling apart. While my triglycerides
have always been on the high side, the past 6 months of cooking (and
eating) with my pregnant wife, followed by sleepless nights and
nothing but pre-prepaired foods has sent my triglycerides through the
roof.

Does anyone have any referances to info on triglycerides?

	Hayden
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
From: rwerman@vms.huji.ac.il (ROBERT WERMAN)
Subject: Iron and Heart Disease
Organization: The Hebrew University of Jerusalem
Date: 9 Sep 92 06:17:04 GMT
Keywords: New England Journal of Medicine

I have been alerted to a major article in the last New
England Journal of Medicine claiming that dietary iron
intake is as much a risk factor as smoking in coronary
heart disease.

Can anyone confirm?  Supply details?  Thanks.


__Bob Werman    rwerman@hujivms.bitnet    rwerman@vms.huji.ac.il
Jerusalem
From: strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight)
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
Subject: Re: China Study
Date: 15 Sep 92 19:14:29 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)


Steve Dyer correctly notes that it wasn't Adele Davis who recanted
a position on the essential need for so-called "complete protein" balanced
meals. It was Francis Moore Lappe.

I'm sure Steve knows this, but preferred to respond in the way he did.
I don't think scoring points is as useful as adding to knowledge.
From: 2fubadapt@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu (Otter)
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
Subject: Re: Is Vitamin C TOXIC ???
Date: 15 Sep 92 13:22:15 CDT
Organization: Slackmeisters of the Holy Evaporated Milk

In article <1992Sep15.160119.16139@spdcc.com>, dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer) writes:

> Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) has no effect on histamine receptors.
> Any beneficial effect it has during a cold or flu can be attributed
> to a placebo effect.

It's amazing how the PLACEBO EFFECT has kept illness away from me for
7 years, huh guys?

I must have a pretty naive body.

:)

-- 
+======================================+======================================+
| Reverend Chris "Otter" Raile from    | 2fubadapt@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu         |
| 'The Slackmeisters Of The Holy       | raile@hawk.cs.ukans.edu              |
| Evaporated Milk'-- A Division of     | craile@heartland.bradley.edu         |
| the Church of the SubGenius(TM)      | bg114@cleveland.freenet.edu          |
| *I'm the best damned Amway salesman* | otter@ids.jvnc.net                   |
+--------------------------------------+--------------------------------------+
| "A CornNut could not drive me to insanity--it's just toasted corn." - Me    |
+=============================================================================+
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
From: strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight)
Subject: Re: China Study
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 92 19:08:57 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)


Paul Fidler misses the point if he thinks to animal comments are
in support of basing human diets on animal ones. The point is that
given the high surplus of cow's milk available to cows (enough
to support an entire dairy industry), if it were a useful food
for anyone, Darwin would long ago have had cows drinking it.

In other words, the comments are one of several threads of
argument--and that thread is anthropological/biological.

Putting it more directly, if milk is such a good food, how come
cows don't drink it?

There is another aspect, though, in which animal evidence is useful.  If
it is asserted that certain diets produce disease, then evidence that
animals somewhat similar (to man) eat it and don't get sick has to be
paid attention to. This is what the monkey/fruit discussion is all
about. Since we base a lot of the safety work leading to drug
certification on animal tests, it seems only "fair" that these
"in the field" safety tests be admissible evidence.

Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition,rec.food.veg
From: molnar@Bisco.CAnet.CA (Tom Molnar)
Subject: Re: VEGETARIAN DIET
Organization: UTCS Campus Access
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1992 01:43:37 GMT

In article <1992Sep9.235906.24251@spdcc.com> dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer) writes:
# As for calcium, your daily requirement is larger than you could put
# easily in a multivitamin.  It's not a trace mineral--women need about
# 800mg/day, 1200mg/day when they're pregnant or lactating, and men about
# 400mg/day.

You know, I've always had some difficulty coming to grips with the US
RDA for calcium (btw, my copy of RDA lists the calcium requirement for
men aged 23-50 5'10" 170lbs as 800mg/day as well).  Has anyone tried to
eat the recommended amount without resorting to dairy products?  I
have, and it's tough.  One has to eat a bushel full of green leafy
vegetables -- and as much as I like my greens, I can't eat that much
every blessed day.  It's almost as if there is a conspiracy to make me
drink milk or eat cheese because it's easy to come up with the 800 mg/day
that way.  I can't help but think of the hundreds of millions of people
in other parts of the world that never drink milk as adults or touch cheese.
They don't seem to suffer from osteoperosis, and since they are human too,
how can they be so different from me?

I figure the high calcium recommendation is a result of the recognition that
the average American diet is higher in protein than the RDA (which in
itself is much higher than WHO standards).  Given that my vegan diet is
low in protein, I don't worry so much about trying to get 800gm/day
anymore.

BTW, there are good quality calcium supplements that you can disolve in
water that are supposed to provide 1500 mg of calcium.  (A doctor prescribed
them for my mother) I wonder how useful such megadoses could possibly be....

Tom
From: basturk@nebin.cica.fr (Erol Basturk)
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
Subject: Food and eyesight
Date: 11 Sep 92 21:00:59 GMT
Organization: Telecom Paris, France

There seems to be relations between eyesight and nutrition.

Could anyone tell me if by proper nutrition, or fasting, it's
really possible to reduce myopia or refractive eyesight problems ?

-- 
+----------------------------------------------------------------+
 Erol Basturk                                       
 Student, computer networks and telecommunications 
 Marniere 71, CH-2068 HAUTERIVE ; Tel. [++4438] 33 66 81
+----------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition,rec.food.veg
From: poirier@bnr.ca (Daniel Poirier)
Subject: Re: Zinc deficiency (was Re: VEGETARIAN DIET)
Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1992 16:05:13 GMT

In article <14SEP92.21370462@nerus.pfc.mit.edu> mrl@nerus.pfc.mit.edu writes:
>In a previous article, dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer) wrote:
>> 
>>Zinc: most beans and legumes are good sources of zinc.  Wheat is, too,
>>but wheat bran and whole wheat contains phytates, which render much of
>>the zinc unavailable.  Wheat germ is a good source.
>> 
>
>Having had problems with zinc deficiency during my vegan days, I question
>whether beans are a good source.  I have never seen that listed in my books,
>and besides, one doesn't normally eat enough beans to get a significant amount
>of zinc from them.  I have heard that leavening breaks down the phytates, so
>bread would have more zinc available.  Why is wheat germ immune to the phytate
>problem, or am I reading your message wrong?  Nuts and seeds (particularly
>pumpkin seeds) are supposedly high in zinc, but then also in fat.  Eventually,
>I gave up and started taking zinc supplements to solve the problem.  Dairy
>products do contain zinc also, but I would recommend supplements before
>recommending eating dairy.
>
>Mark



Mark, you mention you had problems with zinc deficiency. Can you enlighten us
and tell a bit more about it? What are the symptoms, how did you identify it
as a zinc deficiency (doctors?), and how quickly did you get back to normal?
I realize I'm asking you to thread on dangerous ground here (since lately, 
every time anybody states anything more serious than how to spice up a 
decent ratatouille, that somebody gets flamed to a crisp), but I would really
like to know. Hopefully, your response will not cause ignition of those
incurable flame-thwowers... 

Thanks


Oh, I forgot the smilie for the humour-impaired... Here it is: :-)

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
 Daniel Poirier  e-mail: Daniel.Poirier@x400gate.bnr.ca  (613)763-5185
    Standard disclaimers... - BNR does not own or share my opinion!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: bhjelle@carina.unm.edu
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition,connect.audit
Subject: Re: Sources of amino acids
Date: 8 Sep 92 17:55:25 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

In article <Bu7yuL.5zn@ibmpcug.co.uk> object@ibmpcug.co.uk (Ken Tough) writes:

>
>
>  Some company recently genetically engineered some food plant to increase
>  the content of L-tryptophan.  Well, it did that, but it actually caused
>  a combination of two stereo-isomers of the same amino acid  (same
>  molecule, different shape). 

I presume you are talking about D- and L-Tryptophan. If so, you
are far off the mark as far as genetic engineering goes.

Denko went from a purely chemical synthesis of L-tryptophan to one
that was partly dependent upon genetic engineering. To do so, they
produced biosynthetic enzymes (read: "natural") from an organism
that can make its own tryptophan. These enzymes were used to convert
a Trp precursor to a substance that is closer to Trp. I don't
know if either precursor is  a stereoisomer, but it is almost impossible
to produce any measurable quantity of an "incorrect" stereoisomer
using  enzymes found in nature. That is because enzymes designed to
produce a particular isomer are almost always extremely
stereospecific.

This is in marked contrast to chemical syntheses, which are much
more difficulty to design so as to produce only one enantiomer.

>  Stereo-isomers of amino acids can be *extremely* dangerous, since
>  L forms are almost always the naturally occuring ones.  Certain 
>  bacteria, etc., can produce stereo-chemically different amino acids,
>  and these form extremely virulent poisons, since your body is unable
>  to handle them.  This sort of molecule can interact with your body's
>  immune system, which keys in very heavily on the molecule's shape.

This is health-food store claptrap.
>
>  The company was forced to withdraw the product from the U.S. market,
>  but not before 25 people died from it.  (Sorry, I don't remember what
>  it was.)  L-tryptophan itself isn't to blame, since it naturally occurs 
>  in loads of places (the "sleepy-drug" in warm milk for example).

Determining the actual agent(s) responsible for the EMS outbreak
is proving to be very difficult. It appear that L-tryptophan, contrary
to what is stated above, has EMS-inducing activity of its own.
It is certainly not D-tryptophan that caused the outbreak.

>   Anyway, the point is, avoid all this un-natural stuff.  There is no
>   need for anyone eating a balanced diet to worry about boosting the
>   content of naturally occurring amino acids.

We agree that much.

Brian
From: levin@bbn.com (Joel B Levin)
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
Subject: Re: China Study
Date: 15 Sep 92 20:06:20 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: bbn.com

strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight) writes:

|Paul Fidler misses the point if he thinks to animal comments are
|in support of basing human diets on animal ones. 

Are you saying in other words that all this stuff about cow diets is
irrelevant to the topic of human diets?  If so, why bring it up since
it's also wrong?  To wit:

|						  The point is that
|given the high surplus of cow's milk available to cows (enough
|to support an entire dairy industry), if it were a useful food
|for anyone, Darwin would long ago have had cows drinking it.
     ^^^^^^							????

This is specious and irrelevant and ignores what evolution is about.
The surplus milk is a feature irrelevant to survival; if you leave the
calf with its mother and don't milk the cow, the milk production will
cease when the calf no longer needs it.  (It ceases anyway, after a
few months, and the cow must produce another calf before it can
continue to produce milk.)  The ability to produce extra milk does not
affect survival of the species in the Darwinian sense.

". . . if it were a useful food for anyone, Darwin would long ago have
had cows drinking it."  Darwin would have had no such thing.  What
nonsense.

	/JBL
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
From: bch@juliet.caltech.edu (MR. MAPLE)
Subject: Re: Chromium Picolinate vs. Chromium Chloride
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: California Institute of Technology
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 21:21:00 GMT

In article <1992Sep4.185753.27802@inmet.camb.inmet.com>, mazur@inmet.camb.inmet.com (Beth Mazur) writes...
>In article <20122@plains.NoDak.edu> stenslan@plains.NoDak.edu (David Stensland) writes:
>>OK, call me stupid but is there any nutritional difference between the
>>two?  I've also seen muscle magazines tout the benefits of chromium
>>picolinate as a muscle strength wonder pill.  I'm very skeptical. 
> 
>According to Atkins (of the low-carbo diet fame--some would consider
>him a disreputable source :-), the chromium in chromium picolinate is
>more bio-available than is the chromium in chromium chloride.  In
>other words, your body gets more chromium out of the former.
> 
>BTW, brewer's yeast is the food source with the highest amount of 
>chromium.  But the folks who push chromium are often the folks who
>are full of stories about all the bad things yeasts do.  Caveat emptor.
> 
>And don't forget, there's chromium in beer!
> 

Since Chromium has come up as a possible treatment for hypoglycemia, I think
it is worthwhile mentioning that alcohol can make hypoglycemia worse.  So
before downing that six pack for it's chromium content, you had better make 
sure that it is non-alcoholic beer. 

bch
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition,rec.food.veg
From: strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight)
Subject: Re: VEGETARIAN DIET
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 92 07:55:49 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)


Michael Bryan speaks of cutting down on calcium to retard the formation
of kidney stones. One cause of such stones is hyperparathyroidism. This
is often missed in medical examinations--the tipoff is a subtle imbalance
of (as I recall) potassium and calcium in opposite directions in blood
workups.

If one has such a condition in mild form it is recommended to cut out
Vitamin D as well as calcium, to retard stone formation.

Disclaimer: I am not a physician; the above comes from a conversation
with the head of internal medicine at Scripps Clinic some years ago.
For accurate medical information, see your physician.

David
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
From: strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight)
Subject: Re: Annette is Right (was: VEGETARIAN DIET)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 92 18:22:44 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)


Diane is concatenating two unrelated parts of my message to attempt
to refute both. They are mutually exclusive. The first part speaks
of what I'm calling "putrefaction bacteria" from meat and the aging
of meat (i.e. beef). The second speaks of salmonella from chicken.

I'm amused, though, at how the refuters seem to be contradicting each
other. In one set of messages I was told that bacteria can't exist
in the digestive tract, and would certainly be killed by hydrocholoric
acid. In Diane's she speaks (correctly) of E. Coli normally found in
the human digestive tract. Now stop me if you've heard this one
before, but aren't E. Coli bacteria?

David
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
From: artemis@netcom.com (Michelle Dick)
Subject: Re:  Good basic book on nutrition
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 14:29:57 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest) 

In article <1992Sep11.131703.11366@inmet.camb.inmet.com> mazur@inmet.camb.inmet.com (Beth Mazur) writes:
>In article <-stnjlr.artemis@netcom.com> artemis@netcom.com (Michelle Dick) writes:
>>Even with a diet containing no saturated fat,
>>getting 1 tablespoon of polyunsaturated fat pushes most folks over 10%
>>calories from fat.  Later in the chapter she says you can go down to
>>as little as 10% of calories as fat with no risk to health.  Granted,
>>it's a minor point, but it is an inconsistency. 
>
>How so?  I would imagine that most folks eat well over 1200 calories a 
>day, so 1T of fat would be under 10%, no?  
>

Only if 100% of the fat you ate were polyunsaturated.  You'd have to
have a mighty odd diet not to eat any saturated or monounsaturated
fat.  I think it is safe to presume that to get 1T of polyunsaturated
fat in any sane and sustainable diet, you'd have to consume at least
2T of fat (thus meaning you'd have to consume at least 2600 calories).  

What makes polunsaturated fat a requirement is that it is a source of
linoleic acid, which the body needs to make fats.

I'm not saying that its theoretically impossible to get 1T of
polyunsaturated fat in a 10% fat diet, just that you'd really have to
work hard at it.  Most vegetables have some of their fat as
monounsaturates, some with more mono than poly.  People who try to
keep a 10% fat diet (they do exist) have enough of a restriction as it
is, to add to that the restriction that almost all of the 10% be
polyunsaturated might leave them with other nutritional deficiencies.

Thus, I'm left with one of two alternatives:

1. A 10% fat diet is very unwise
or
2. Most people don't need a full 1T of polyunsaturated fat per day.

I'll vote for 2.
--
Michelle Dick
artemis@netcom.com
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
From: buckland@ucs.ubc.ca (Tony Buckland)
Subject: Beta carotene
Organization: University of B.C. Computing Services
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1992 19:10:54 GMT

 Does any reader know of a recent mainstream article on recommended
 beta carotene dosages?  e-mail or follow up here, your choice.
 Thanks (an actual reference: journal, issue, title or pages would
 be most useful).
From: bhjelle@carina.unm.edu
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
Subject: Re: VEGETARIAN DIET
Date: 14 Sep 92 13:58:26 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

>In a previous article, strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight) wrote:
>> 
>>"Sugar and other carbohydrates do not require the copious flow of
>>hydrochloric acid as do proteins, but just enough to further cleave
>>the cellulose of the foods into an emulsion. Starches have an affinity
>>for pepsin, which is needed in large amounts for protein digestion.
>>When this pepsin is lacking due to the absorbing action of the
>>starches, the proteins are not proplerly split into peptones. As a
>>result, putrefaction takes place. Furthermore, the starches will
>>ferment, causing a souring of the stomach and the formation of gas.
>>Continued indigestion will ultimately cause the breakdown of vital
>>structures which can result in ulcers and even cancer. Therefore
>>carbohydrates and proteins should be eaten at separate meals."
>>Dr. Herbert M. Shelton
>> 
>
This is rich. "Putrefaction" and "fermentation" occuring in the
human stomach. "Breakdown of vital structures". I, for one,
am pleased to see this sort of discussion move out of sci.med
and into the sci.med.nutrition garbagecan.

Learning to use my "c" key...

Brian
Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition
From: strnlght@netcom.com (David Sternlight)
Subject: Re: VEGETARIAN DIET
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 92 18:02:56 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)


In his latest message Steve Dyer shows he considers the use of
ad hominem attacks and gutter language "correction" of those
with whom he disagrees.

Ah. I understand now where he is coming from.

Veeery iiinteresting (to quote the first part of an old
"Laugh In" line). Readers with a good memory may supply the second
part for themselves.

Newsgroups: sci.med.nutrition