HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .40 S&W Help Sought
Date: 30 Sep 92 23:14:28 GMT
Article-I.D.: smoke.19239
Organization: U.S. Army Ballistic Research Lab, APG MD.


In article <9209281542.AA04348@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> rnoguchi@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Ryan Alexander Noguchi) writes:
#Well, I'd personally pass on a "revolver" with a ~5 lb double
#action trigger pull myself.  One of the main advantages of the
#traditional semiautomatic is the reduced trigger pull for at least the
#second and subsequent shots, making followup hits easier.  This
#advantage is lost with DAO semiautos and revolvers.  For all intents and
#purposes, the Glock with the New York trigger or heavy connector or
#whatever for an 8-12 lb pull *IS* a double-action only weapon, and
#therefore needs a safety about as much as any revolver.  However, a
#standard 5lb triggered Glock needs a safety IMHO just as much as any
#cocked-and-unlocked (Condition Zero) pistol.  I'm not worried about
#dropping the piece (I understand they were dropped cocked out of
#helicopters and out of moving cars without discharging) but in
#inadvertent AD's when reholstering in an inside-pants holster in the
#wake of a shooting incident, for instance.  There's also the 
#"proprietary to the user" factor if your sidearm is snatched from your
#holster.

I gather from your comments that you don't have much experience using
Glocks.  The standard Glock pull (mine is 7 pounds) refers to the force
needed to trip the striker after reaching a fully cocked state; however,
there is a considerable amount of travel needed before that point, at
less force, to move from partially to fully cocked.  It is NOT AT ALL
the same as nominally the same pull on a single-action (or DA/SA)
semiautomatic pistol or revolver; it takes a deliberate action to pull
a Glock trigger far enough to fire the weapon.  Subsequent shots can be
made without releasing the trigger all the way forward, but I have never
even come close (in shooting hundreds of magazine loads) to firing any
shot accidentally through too much finger pressure.  I'm not saying that
a ham-fisted utter klutz couldn't have a problem, or someone who knows
nothing about safe handling of firearms, but under normal circumstances
there is nothing unsafe about the lightness of a standard Glock trigger
pull (I wish mine were somewhat lighter).

One simply does NOT reholster with the finger in the trigger guard.
With the finger out of the trigger guard, holstering is NOT going to
cause a Glock to fire, at least not with any appropriate holster I've
ever seen.
From: bobd@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Bob DeBula)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Remington 788's
Date: 1 Oct 92 13:04:48 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University

In article <1992Sep30.153235.25727@u.washington.edu> toby@carson.u.washington.edu (Toby Bradshaw) writes:
#In article <1992Sep29.143916.17664@amc.com> reb@amc.com (Bob Brunjes) writes:
##After noting my 788, and exchanging winks, he told me that he normally
##shot ~.25", and really _couldn't_ figure out his problem.  He sure shook
##up the 30-30 shooters.
#
#Well, I don't want to flame either Bob or the Rem 788, but a rifle that
#AVERAGE 0.25" is a rare bird in anything but an outright BR rifle.
#At the Kenmore rifle range near you, Bob, there are BR matches for
#factory, custom, and pure BR on the second Saturday of every month.
#0.25 MOA will win it all in ANY of the classes at 300 yards, and
#would win all but the unlimited class at 200 yards.  Why not come
#out and shoot with us?  For $6 you get concrete benches, target
#butts and targets at 100, 200, and 300 yards, and the chance to
#look over some interesting hardware.  I think I speak for everyone
#at the matches, we're always interested in accurate rifles and
#welcome new shooters.
#

It is a bad day at the range when my 788 .22-250 won't do at least
as well as a few .5" 5 shot groups at 100 yards. I have seen the occasional
.25" group, but it is fairly rare. Note that *I* probably can't
shoot that well anymore, but the rifle can. My trigger was obviously
worked over by a previous owner to 1-2 lbs. (it makes me a bit nervous
to have a "whisper" light trigger on a groundhog rifle actually).

I also don't remember Bob B. claiming that he got or anyone else
got .25 MOA groups with a 788 at 300 yards ;-).

And I'm not defending Bob B. just because his name is Bob either :-).

I remember about 8 or 9 years back, I could've had used 788s in any
caliber (including the rare .44 Mag. & .30-30) for around $125.
This was at a small out of the way Amish gun shop in a remote part of the
state. I don't think I paid more than $125 for my .22-250 788 10 years
ago. I stopped through the aforementioned shop this past year
and such bargains now seem to be part of history, *sigh*. Used to see
really weird stuff at that shop. One of the stranger things was an
absolutely gorgeous 25-06 SAKO heavy barrel with some name like "Elmer"
engraved in a childish scrawl with an electro engraver on the side of
the receiver. Talk about things to make you ill....

Oh, the other drawbacks of that shop included gas lighting (bad news on
a warm summer evening) and the requirement of "cash only" (though 10%
down would hold it for 30 days -- boy did I take advantage of
that on occassion!). Strangely enough, a microfiche viewer was OK 
(as was an electrically powered lathe). I never did figure out the
exact rules. 
-- 
==========================================================================
              Disclaimer: These are my views, not the U's

        "If it's in the paper it must be true!" --- D. Doright
From: messina@netcom.com (Tony Porczyk)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Glock trigger pull
Date: 3 Oct 92 20:37:54 GMT
Article-I.D.: netcom.1992Oct3.182240.26066
Organization: Messina Software

fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary) writes:

#I'm either missing something important, or I'd have to say it isn't
#a great police/self-defence carry gun. 

Hm.  How have you arrived at this conclusion?  Because it is made of
polymers?  Should I mention M16 here?

t.
From: eads@hplsdmk.col.hp.com (Rick Eads)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: M98 Mauser info. requested.
Date: 28 Sep 92 21:56:33 GMT

I recently received a M98 style Mauser with the
following vital signs.

      Model Number:       Modelo 1912
      Serial Number:      A-1650
      Manufacturer:       WAFFENFABRIK STYER
      Place of Manufacture: Austria
      Caliber:      ? (7mm Mauser?)

This rifle appears to be based on the M98, large ring
Mauser design.  On the front ring of the receiver there
is a crest .  The crest bears a shield with a star in
its center flanked on the left by what appears to be a
deer and on the right, an eagle/falcon.  It appears to
have been made by Styer of Austria though the model
designation, "Modelo 1912" seems to indicate service in
a latin american (or south american) country.  The
action is very smooth, impressively so.

My question is this.  Can anyone tell me what kind of
Mauser this is?  Is it an Argentine or Chilean Mauser
or is it really an Austrian Mauser?  Any caveats?

Please send email to eads@col.hp.com

Regards,
Rick Eads
From: brian@pdx.csd.mot.com (Brian Vandewettering)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Shotgun speedloader?
Date: 30 Sep 92 23:14:23 GMT
Article-I.D.: pdxvme.1343
Organization: Motorola CSD, Beaverton, OR


In article <1992Sep29.163106.23341@osf.org> craig@osf.org (Craig Peterson) writes:
#He then says: Experimentation has shown that these devices are
#inheritently unreliable.  He doesn't recommend their use for defense
#situations, and doesn't use them for much of anything.

I attended an action rifle and shotgun match earlier this summer where
a couple of the guys were using shotgun speedloaders.  They didn't miss
a beat and won the shotgun part of the match.  I would say they are
essential to be competitive in any action shotgun match.  No I don't 
remember the brand.  They consisted of a slotted plastic tube with a 
follower inside.  The follower was connected to a handle through the 
slot in the tube.  To charge the magazine, the shotgun action was closed
and the tube pressed against the bottom of the receiver.  The rounds were
then pushed into the magazine by shoving the speedloader handle forward.

The way these guys shot, I can assure you they had plenty of practice.

- Brian Vandewettering
-- 
"It cannot be presumed that any clause in the Constitution is intended to
be without effect..."

- Chief Justice John Marshall, Marbury v. Madison, 1803
From: hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Proper Shooting Technique
Date: 6 Oct 92 19:40:44 GMT
Article-I.D.: ttinews.1992Oct6.185148.10288
Organization: The Cat Factory

In article <ras.13@fred.niaid.pc.niaid.nih.gov> ras@fred.niaid.pc.niaid.nih.gov (Randy Stevens) writes:
}
}
}     I need help on refining my shooting skills!!!
}
}     I am interested in learning about the proper breathing technique to use 
}when firing a rifle.  In other words, when do you pull the trigger-- when 
}the lungs are full, partially empty, or empty??  Although I shoot/hunt 
}alot, I have never learned the right way to breathe when shooting. 

Exhale, wait a second or two for sight picture to steady, squeeze trigger.

For details, you can order _The Basics of Rifle Shooting_ from the NRA or
find an NRA instructor to teach you the Basic Rifle Shooting Course (which
should include the book).


The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com)
Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp                   Turn the rascals out!
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.   (310) 450-9111, x2483     No incumbents in '92!
Santa Monica, CA  90405
From: edhresko@eos.ncsu.edu (ERIC DAVID HRESKO)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: laser sightings..
Date: 27 Sep 92 11:28:08 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos


	The one think that you need to remember is that a laser sight  
is almost useless unless it is:
	a) dark
	b) smoky
	c) inside
	d) ab, ac, bc, abc


-- 


Eric

******************************************************************************
Eric Hresko		* Mail:  edhresko@eos.ncsu.edu                       * 
Kanki House of Steaks   * Voice: (why would you want to call?) 1-919-821-5168*
Dishwasher 2nd Class    * HK Rules!!! (But a FAL will do in a pinch)         *
DISCLAIMER:  I don't wear sandals, eat granola, or tiptoe thru the Tulips    *
******************************************************************************
From: boeg@idt.unit.no (Gunnar Boe)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Police academy training programs? (Was Re: police marksmenship?)
Date: 26 Sep 92 15:39:11 GMT
Organization: IDT -- Norwegian Institute of Technology

In article <199209250732.AA28251@ugle.unit.no>, boeg@idt.unit.no (Gunnar Boe) writes:
|> In article <01GP27RH57Z4000HPZ@VAX1.Mankato.MSUS.EDU>, anthrax@vax1.mankato.msus.edu writes:
|> |> [Stuff about police markmenshop deleted]
|> Could someone please tell us what these initial training programs
|> include and add some references to books on this subject (information
|> on this subject hardly exists in Norway....)

Answer received .....
 From: nsabh@bssv02.hac.com (Nael Sabha)
 Date: Fri, 25 Sep 92 11:04:39 PDT

I couldn't post to the news group, but I'll try mailing this to you and if you
want, you can post it to the news group.

: In article <01GP27RH57Z4000HPZ@VAX1.Mankato.MSUS.EDU>, anthrax@vax1.mankato.ms
us.edu writes:
: |> Normally the initial academy training is pretty good, but the follow up
: |> training is silly.  Just go to the range a couple times a year and put some
: |> holes in paper.  Not much followup for the most part.  

In orange County, California, the basic academy is good, as mentioned.  But,
operational units must qualify once a month.  To do this, they have a
course which is 36 bullets.  The course changes every month.  Usually you
are shooting at a target when it turns and then you fire 3 and so forth.
Sometimes you have a string of 12 fired 3 at a time, sometimes a string
of 6 fired two at a time.  But you need to score 70% out of 36.    The scoring
is out of 360 points.  10 points for center mass, 9 for outside center mass. 0 
points for anything else.

: |>  
: |> The stats they told us in class are that cops hit what they shoot
: |> at about 21% 
: |> of the time and the bad guys hit what they are shooting at about 18% of the
: |> time and normally have only fired an average of five shots in there
: |> whole life 
: |> as practice.
: |>  
: |> Oddly enough, law enforcement trainers and educators are working towards
: |> improving these scores for the officers by new training
: |> innovations, improved 
: |> refresher training, etc.  The current system obviously has room for
: |> improvement.

To shoot a 9mm, the deputy needs to take a transition class for 16 hours.
Good class and the deputy must qualify with the 9mm before he can carry.
From: reb@amc.com (Bob Brunjes)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .38 & .357
Date: 30 Sep 92 01:59:16 GMT
Organization: Applied Microsystems, Redmond, WA

In article <1992Sep25.025611.13622@ncsu.edu> hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer) writes:
#
#  There have been a lot of posts about how much longer the
#.357 Magnum round and chamber are than those of the .38 Special.
#Since I reload both I have often looked up the specs, and the
#maximum cartridge overall lengths of the two are
#.38 Spl   1.550"
#.357 Mag  1.590"
#
#showing the .357 Mag longer by 0.04".  I'm going to surmise that
#the same difference would be found between the chamber (cylinder)
#lengths of the two calibers, and the same difference therefore
#would be found between the bullet to forcing cone distances.  In
#all of this I would think that .04" really would not make any 
#perceptible performance difference.
#
#  I know that rounds are often not loaded to the max. OAL, and so
#.38 Spl rounds will often be shorter than .357 Mag. rounds, but the
#gun has to be built to accomodate the max. OAL.  (Except for some
#which are built shorter, and labelled thusly, such as the Ruger
#GP101?, which would only accept the shorter 125 gr. .357 Mag
#rounds.)
#
#  If the two rounds are loaded to the same OAL, then the case
#capacity below the bullet will be the same in the two cases, even
#though the cases differ in length by 0.135".  The bullet in the
#.357 Mag will be seated more deeply (with respect to the bullet)
#exactly compensating for the difference in length.  If the rounds
#have the bullets seated to the same point on the bullet, then
#there will be a difference in the space for powder, but the two
#can't be the same OAL.

If memory serves correctly, the Thompson gas-check 158-grain
cast bullet (Lyman 358156) is made with two crimp grooves for
just this purpose.  Crimp on the front groove for .38 in a .38
case or .357 in a .357 case; crimp on the back groove for a .357
in a .38 case.  I'll bring in a bullet tomorrow to measure the
difference in crimp groove locations.
#
#  Therefore I think that it is a great oversimplification to
#say that the .357 Mag is longer, or has more case space below the
#bullet, or a shorter jump to the forcing cone, since none of these
#are always meaningful.
#
#--henry schaffer  n c state univ


Bob Brunjes		Applied Microsystems Corp
			Redmond, WA
			reb@amc.com
From: kng@pt.com (Ken Gravenstede)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Ruger .44 Magnum Semi-Auto
Date: 30 Sep 92 01:58:04 GMT
Organization: Performance Technologies, Incorporated

Does anyone have any information about any .44 magnum rifles especially about
a semi-auto carbine Ruger made a few years ago?

Also, if you have one you want to get rid of please let me know.

Thanks,

Ken
-- 
__
Ken Gravenstede, Performance Technologies Incorporated	kng@pt.com
315 Science Parkway, Rochester, New York 14620            uupsi!ptsys1!kng
From: wb@mtqua.att.com (Werner Baumgartner)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Citizenship ?
Date: 3 Oct 92 13:21:13 GMT
Organization: AT&T

Is being a Citizen of the USA a prerequisite to being permitted to legally
own or purchase firearms ? What standing does a legal alien on permanent
resident status have in this regard ? Are these Federal issues or local,
State, municipal issues ?

Any information on this subject would be appreciated.

					Thank You, Werner B.
From: alexank@jasper.cs.orst.edu (Kelly Alexander)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Glock 17L?  Information
Date: 3 Oct 92 13:21:33 GMT
Organization: Computing Services, University of British Columbia

|> #| For what you want, the Glock 17 cannot be beat.   Accurate, reliable,
|> #| cheap, sturdy.
|> #
|> #  Has anyone shot or heard anything about the Glock 17L?  I'd like to
|> #  hear some opinions about it (compared to the 17).
|> #  ==
|> 

	The December issue of Combat Handguns has a full review of the
Glock 17L, you might want to look there for info.



---------------------------------------------------------------------
     Kelly Scott Alexander          alexank@research.cs.orst.edu
	      Oregon State University, Computer Science
	     Instructional Machines Systems Administrator
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Tec9 triggerjob
Date: 26 Sep 92 15:39:09 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

btree!andy@UCSD.EDU (Andy Bosik) writes:

#I just bought a Intratec DC9 (Which is is Calif.legal
#version of the TEC9),and I love it,except the trigger
#pull is about 9.5pounds!
#Since the main reason I aquired it is for rapid fire
#plinking,I'd like to lighten the trigger pull as much
#as possible.So I'd like to know if anybody out there
#knows of a good Smith that does Tec9 Triggers?

I don't think a good smith would touch an Intratec product.
Their other guns are cast zinc junk.  The 9mms, I hope, are
steel and plastic junk instead, but I wouldn't be suprised 
if it still is in the "replace- not repair" category.

Jim Del Vecchio
From: cower@SSD.intel.com (Rich Cower)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: loading 7.62X39 (this might (?) make it worth it)
Date: 30 Sep 92 01:58:26 GMT
Organization: Supercomputer Systems Division, Intel Corp.


I've found something that MIGHT make loading 7.62X39 worth doing. I 
haven't done the total breakdown on cost, but this looks promising.
I was poking around for some cheap powder for 223, and came across 
some mil spec. powders made by Hodgdon. I couldn't find any loading
data for these powders and called them today (913-631-3851). These
powders are not in their loading data book (I think they should be). While
none of them will work in the 223, one (H116) is real good for 7.62X39.
The load is 23.1 gr. of H116, using a 122 or 123 gr. bullet. He said you
could use a 125 gr. bullet, but recommended the 122 or 123.

The best thing about this powder is the cost. It lists for $36 for 8 lbs. 
My supplier doesn't have it. Hodgdon pointed me to Graph & Son in Mexico,
MS. as a possible source. I rang them up (314-581-2266) and they do carry it.

Does anyone have any sources for cheap brass and bullets? I saw an
article on casting bullets for the 7.62X39 a while ago, I think it was
in Handloader. I skimmed it, thinking "why bother" - but this cheap powder
and the current political climate might make it worth a closer look. If you 
want the details I can dig it out.

Remember - Clinton proof your hobby....rich
From: hes@ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Safety Reminder Poster (postscript file)
Date: 2 Oct 92 16:58:06 GMT
Article-I.D.: ncsu.1992Oct2.155807.14306
Organization: North Carolina State University


  Thanks to Joe St Sauver and to Nancy Bittle for this nice
safety training aid.  It prints nicely centered on an 8 1/2 x 11
sheet of paper.  It was originally distributed on the firearms
mailing list, and Joe and Nancy said it was okay to post it here.

--henry schaffer  n c state univ

================  Cut here and appendage at end before printing ============

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