HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: sommar@enea.se (Erland Sommarskog)
Subject: Re: Ellemann-Jensen on Macedonia
Organization: Enea Data AB
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 19:04:59 GMT

Leo J Irakliotis (irakliot@lance.colostate.edu) writes:
>The population in the GYRM is a mixture of
>many ethnic groups and none of them is Macedonian.

Who decides that? You or them?

>Doesn't it strike you all too odd that they persist on that issue for more
>than a year? Anyother reasonable state would reconciliate, but not a state
>ruled by Communists (after all President Gligorov is a communist, face it).
>
>Doesn't it strike you all to odd that FYRM rejected all the initiatives for
>negotiations, arbitration etc?

You may call yourself Leo because that's the name of my cousin (he 
lied). You persist? For over a year? How odd you are! You don't even 
want a little arbitation commission? Oh, come on be constructive! We
can surely sort out the issue. Maybe we can reach a compromise with 
calling you <something> Leo. Stupid Leo, maybe?

-- 
Erland Sommarskog - ENEA Data, Stockholm - sommar@enea.se
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: kilitzir@cyprus.csd.uch.gr (Kilitzirakis christos 122)
Subject: ONOMA TOY NEWSGROUP ! ! !
Organization: Computer Science Department, University of Crete HELLAS
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 07:54:37 GMT
Date: 21 Jan 93 07:50:17 GMT
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: ONOMA TOY NEWSGROUP ! ! !


Geia hara,
    Den mou lete re paidia....Pios euthinetai gia to onoma autou
tou newsgroup (Nai, nai gia to greek milaw) ? Kala ama to onoma to 
ebgale kanenas ellinas, milame gia poli xeftila.Ama to ebgale kanas
barbaros (pas mi ellin barvaros... Hah hah) tote pali xeftila...
    Re paidia eimaste sobaroi...Pali kala pou den legetai "douloi"
...Telos pantwn, auto pou proteinw einai AMESH allagi tou onopmatos
"helenic" einai mia hara onoma, den nomizetai ? ? ?
    Edw sta kainouria diavatiria den emfanizetai pouthena to "Greece"
(eftixws). Loipon twra pou exoume to gnwsto problima onomasias twn
Skopianwn kalo tha itan na xekatharizame kai to diko mas onoma.
    Siga min eimaste graikoi!!!
    Ante na doume....
					Filika,
					Alkis Argiropoulos
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.europe
From: 00019959@ysub.ysu.edu
Subject: Hellenic documentaries . FOR SALE
Organization: Youngstown State University
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 05:05:26 GMT

Hello.  my name is Sonia Saulidu.  I work and live in Greece.  I
work for different kinds of productions.  I have brought with me to
the u.s. a DEMO with 9 different documenntaries. These documentaries have been
already sold to a Belgian T.V. for almost 60.000 drc. per minute.
Each one lasts 45 min.  They are fantastic. ofcourse since they are
the Greek islands, the history of them, the culture that the people
there developped, the historical nautical roads, Aegeatic poetry
and songs, the animals and fish of the animals, etc. beautiful
scineries. Everything well done. if you can help me sell these to
a u.s. T.V. station or production company or whatever you will
keep to yourself a commission of 15%. Thank you for the patience
this message. for more info.you can call my tel# in Greece after
feb. 25. #30-31-200170 or write s. saulidu -40 ekklissies-viziinou
26- GR54636 THESSALONIKI MACEDONIA HELLAS.
From: rika@informix.com (Rika Tsitsinia)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history
Subject: Re: On Macedonia (was Re: Greece reacts sharply to remarks by  Danish foreign minister)
Date: 25 Jan 93 21:38:06 GMT
Organization: Informix Software, Inc.

In article <1993Jan25.020206.19971@afterlife.ncsc.mil> agscrib@afterlife.ncsc.mil (Arthur Scribner) writes:
>In article <C1D8Hs.GHJ@dartvax.dartmouth.edu> J.Theodore.Schuerzinger@dartmouth.edu (J. Theodore Schuerzinger) writes:
>>
>>My point was that the Greeks don't have any right to claim the name
>>'Macedonia' as theirs and theirs alone (which is what they are trying
>>to do).  If anybody else tries to use it for, say the independent
>>country which was formerly the southernmost of the Yugoslavian
>>republics, watch what those of Greek extraction who inhabit the net do.
>> Why do you think I used the phrase 'hissy fit' in another of my posts?
>>
>>
>>
>      --Ted Schuerzinger
>
>That's not the first thing the Greeks tried to claim that was not theirs. I am
>referring to the fact that there is no such thing as Greek Philosophy. The 
>Greeks stole it from the Ancient Egyptians.
>
>Arthur
>

	At last, someone who read "Black Athena"!

	And these thieves did not even stop there! After they stole
    Geometry and Mathematics from the Egyptians, they stole the idea
    of Democracy from the Persians (:-) and with their formidable
    marketing skills convinced everybody that it was theirs!),
    art and architecture from Galateans (ancient French) and the
    list goes on!

	And now look out for these bandits as they try to steal the
    name Macedonia for themselves! Amazing, of course, especially
    when everybody knows that the name itself is a Macedonian word
    and not a greek word. This is very unlike them, since they usually
    change the name of their spoils to greek words to try to hide
    their origin. Only one conclusion can be drawn from this: they
    are becoming bolder and bolder...

	... I could go on forever, of course, but this is too
    humorous even for me and I will pass this one to someone else
    who wants to have some good time. Nobody should have so much
    fun alone in a single day! It's not a Christian thing to do.

	Georgios
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,alt.news.macedonia
From: irakliot@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Leo J. Irakliotis)
Subject: Re: Ellemann-Jensen on Macedonia
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 21:52:31 GMT
Reply-To: irakliot@lance.colostate.edu
Organization: Engineering Network Services, Colorado State University

In article <C19LBB.6yC@gabriel.keele.ac.uk>, cla04@seq1.keele.ac.uk (A.T. Fear) writes:
|> 
|> Hmm I wonder how you'd characterise those who called for Enosis

I call them Cypriots and they are citizens of the republic of Cyprus and
should you get reading more history and geography you will find that
Cyprus is an indepentent state.

|> or read the Stochos newspaper. 

A negligible minority. If you base your definition of nationalism in a country,
just on a 0.001% of the population that happens to follow an extreme-right
wing party, and has no state representation or whatsoever, the be aware:
on the same token facism is spreading in UK, France and elsewhere.

|> I think their
|> crime was to say that they felt Macedonian not Greek in public. 

That's good --- that you can think I mean. Now, try to get the facts
straight, before continuing your intended misleading of this group.

|> We should also mention perhaps the
|> five *Greek* communists who are on trial for treason (!) simply for
|> circulating a pamphlet which disagreed with the official line on
|> Macedonia.

Thank you for confirming my calculations: 5 in a population of 10,000,000
or 2 out of 10,000,000 isn't exactly what I would call an ethnic group.

 
|>  As regards the other countries you mention, let's face it every country
|> has a few fascists. 

That burn schools and attack their politicians (Germany for example), that
get elected in the Parliament (France), etc? You call them a few? Boy, you
have *the* gift for understatement.


-- 
Leo J Irakliotis                 irakliot@eva.lance.colostate.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Electrical Engineering                      l.irakliotis@ieee.org
Colorado State U
(303) 491-2021                              Optical Computing Lab
From: Howard Frederick <hfrederick@igc.apc.org>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Date: 24 Jan 93 15:37 PST
Subject: Europe in Turmoil*Media*Call4Papers
Nf-ID: #N:cdp:1473100072:000:2526
Nf-From: cdp.UUCP!hfrederick    Jan 24 15:37:00 1993


From: Howard Frederick <hfrederick>
Subject: Europe in Turmoil*Media*Call4Papers

                [ Please respond to hfrederick@igc.apc.org ]
                     Call for Papers*Deadline Extended

                    International Communication Section
         INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION FOR MASS COMMUNICATION RESEARCH

                            "Europe in Turmoil:  
               Communication and Democracy in Civil Society"
        Hosted by School of Communications, Dublin City University
                        June 25-26 Dublin, Ireland

     Three forces compete for the hearts and minds of Europe's attentive 
publics--government, market, and civil society.  In Europe, as elsewhere, 
governments and markets control the major channels of public opinion 
formation, so they usually prevail.  But new channels (both interpersonal 
and technological) have transformed our capacity to build and maintain 
long-distance coalitions and networks.  New regional and global forces are 
now using new channels of communication to fight problems whose scale 
previously confounded local and national solution.  We call this the 
"transnationalization of civil participation."  

     The International Communication Section seeks papers for two panels 
describing the scope and impact of channels promoting communication and 
democracy in Europe's civil societies.  From the environment to women, from 
neighborhood conflict resolution to computer networks, from radio to 
publishing, from universities to the labor movement:  Civil society is 
producing new media to distribute its culture and information.  Market- and 
government-controlled media have not been able to provide reliable and 
diversified information essential to democracy.  We will accept articles 
from outside Europe if they focus on channels of civil and democratic 
communication relevant "Europe in Turmoil."  

     Paper abstracts accepted until February 15.  Important:  Final papers 
must be submitted via *email or on diskette* by April 15, 1992, no 
exceptions.  For submissions, contact:  Howard H. Frederick, President, 
International Communication Section of IAMCR, P.O.B. 94653, Pasadena, CA 
91109 USA Voice:  +1-818-568-0994  Email:  hfrederick@igc.apc.org   
Fax: +1-818-791-2205 "Attention CLAIRE"   

     For more information on the Dublin conference, contact Paschal 
Preston, School of Communications, Dublin City University, Glasnevin DUBLIN 
9, IRELAND  Tel:  +353 1 7045478  Fax:  +353 1 704 5447  
E-Mail:  PrestonP@dcu.ie

Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Subject: Re: Some thoughts on the Macedonia issue
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1993 01:55:45 GMT

ivrissimtzis@vax1.bham.ac.uk writes:

>Some points on the Macedonian question:

>1. Macedonia major geographically designates an area that includes the northern
>province of Greece (Aegean Macedonia), most of FYR of Macedonia (Bardar
>Macedonia) and part of southwestern Bulgaria (Macedonia of Pirin).

 Let me correct you at this point Leonida.  There is not any area in Greece 
 called "Aegean Macedonia," as you very well know.  I hope this was a typo.
 The name of this Greek territory is "Macedonia."

>Leonidas Ivrisimtzis
>Univ. of Birmingham

 Panos Tamamidis
From: kd@doc.ic.ac.uk (Kostis Dryllerakis)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Greek Philosophy is a Joke
Date: 26 Jan 1993 14:34:25 GMT
Organization: Imperial College, London, U.K.
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: confucius.doc.ic.ac.uk


In article <1993Jan26.001717.25120@afterlife.ncsc.mil>,
agscrib@afterlife.ncsc.mil (Arthur Scribner) writes:

> Why are the Greeks given credit for the development of Philosophy as a 
> science. They had no contribution science of Philosophy, because the tenets
> of Philosophy were laid down thousands of years before the Greeks were even
> cognizant of themselves. The formalization of Philosophical thought and
> ideology was developed by the Ancient Egyptians from whom the Greeks merely
> plagarized. These early African people educated the Greeks, who were at that
> time known as the Pyrhennians, and gave them there culture. I just don't
> appreciate the way the history books have been rigged to perpetuate this 
> myth of Greek Philosophy.
> 

	Whenever I see this kind of postings in this newsgroup I feel sad. Postings
like this one, have no argumentation just bitter feelings -for or against- greeks and
their civilization. Furthermore in just few lines so many different attacks appear
without connection to each other. Take for instance the sentence:
	[the Greeks] had no contribution [to the] science of Philosophy.
which is supposed to logicaly follow from
	The formalization of Philosophical thought and ideology was developed 
	by the Ancient Egyptians.
Now even if  we accept the fact that the twilight of philosophical thought took place
in Egypt (I am afraid we have to go further back in time to reach it) you could not
accuse the greek philosophers (known to us by their name and their works) of
stealing the ideas from the Egyptians. Even if their base material was "stolen"
(I suppose that's how you see it) are you the one to suggest that
they did no further development on philosophy and the sciences?
If that is the case then their is no point in continuing this letter.


> Arthur
> 

Kostis

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
K J Dryllerakis					Deparment    of    Computing
Logic Programming Group				Imperial  College,    LONDON
Janet: kd @uk.ac.ic.doc				Tel:  +44(71) 589 5111 x5089
Uucp : kd@icdoc.UUCP				Internet:    kd@doc.ic.ac.uk
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Xref: sparky soc.culture.greek:12692 soc.culture.netherlands:6118 soc.culture.turkish:15192 soc.culture.usa:10279 soc.culture.soviet:12524
From: lsuki@ikaria.ntua.gr (Levon H. Sukissian)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.netherlands,soc.culture.turkish,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.soviet
Subject: Re: The Chairman Of EC says:
Date: 28 Jan 93 07:38:49 GMT
Organization: National Technical University of Athens

In article <1993Jan21.162312.18313@kth.se>, mixalHs writes:
> |> 
> milaei h Dania gia Ellada... pws leme:
> eipe o ga.i.daros ton peteino kefala!
> an kapoia xwra dhmiourgei problhma sthn eok einai
> h Dania kai oxi h Ellada (pws len mastrixt;)
> 
> mixalHs

Afou loipon eisai toso konta stous ksanthopaparakous tous Danous tha exeis
akousei oti o Elleman phre apo tous DIKOUS TOY SYMPATRIWTES to brabeio tou
pio BLAKA politikou (akribws etsi). Bebaia twra mas adeiase th gwnia, alla ki
o antikatastaths tou an sunexisei na uposthrizei thn prwth tou sxetikh dhlwsh
(tha sunexisw thn politikh Elleman) eimai sxedon sigouros oti tha parei to
allo megalo brabeio pou dinoun oi sumpatriwtes tou, to epishs katalhgon se
-laka :-)

--
    +=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+
    |                                                                     |
    |                   M A K E D O N I A   ksakousth                     |
    |                                                                     |
    |               tou   A L E K S A N D R O Y   h xwra                  |
    |                                                                     |
    +=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+


                                                    Levon the Macedonian
From: terziogl@ee.rochester.edu (Esin Terzioglu)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Re: Linovambakoi (Re: Turkish Cypriots reject ENOSIS)
Keywords: Ali Pasas, The King, Makarios, Chrysostomos, Vasiliu, Enosis, Palikaria, Akritas
Date: 22 Jan 93 15:06:32 GMT
Organization: Univ of Rochester, College of Engineering and Applied Science

In article <C17tv0.HnG@news.cso.uiuc.edu> msg7038@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Michalis  Syrimis) writes:
[stuff deleted]

>>GET OFF of it Symiris !!!
>Besime control yourself, you are becoming a public scene.
>Watch your typing too.  
>
>>Turkish Cypriots ARE TURKISH Cypriots.
>
>Exactly.  In your previous article you presented your arguments, which
>were perfectly logical, and with which I agree completely.  It's how one 
>feels that determines his ethnicity / nationality and not his genetic code.
>Read also the posting by Lambros Skartsis about the more general subject, his
>views are not very different than ours.
>
>However, the fact remains that some of the Turkish Cypriots indeed were 
>Greek Cypriots who converted to islam during the years of the Ottoman rule.  
>Historical Truth is Historical Truth.
>That's the whole point I was trying to make, but your went several steps 
>ahead and saw different intentions and implications.

[stuff deleted]

To all Greek Cypriots who claim that Turkish Cypriots were once Greeks(!),

1) There is no evidence in the history of Cyprus that says that "Greek" 
   Cypriots are related to mainland Greeks (then Byzantium). Cyprus had a
   blend of peoples who lived on the Island (Lusignans, Venicians etc.)
   So, present "Greek" Cypriots consider themselves to be Greek because of
   common language and religion with the mainland Greece.

2) When Ottomans conquered Cyprus, they enslaved women and put them in
   their harems. Hey Panos, check it out man, you could be a descendent of
   one of those. This "enslaving women" was done in mainland Greece as well.
   So if there is anyone out there who claims that he/she is pure Greek,
   he/she had better trace his/her family line back to fifteenth century.

This article was called for by a couple of people of this net. It is not
meant ot offend people, it is just a historical fact.

regards,
E.T.

>Michalis Syrimis
>University of Illinois
>Urbana-Champaign
From: agscrib@afterlife.ncsc.mil (Arthur Scribner)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek
Subject: Greek Philosophy is a Joke
Date: 26 Jan 93 00:17:17 GMT
Organization: The Great Beyond

Why are the Greeks given credit for the development of Philosophy as a 
science. They had no contribution science of Philosophy, because the tenets
of Philosophy were laid down thousands of years before the Greeks were even
cognizant of themselves. The formalization of Philosophical thought and
ideology was developed by the Ancient Egyptians from whom the Greeks merely
plagarized. These early African people educated the Greeks, who were at that
time known as the Pyrhennians, and gave them there culture. I just don't
appreciate the way the history books have been rigged to perpetuate this 
myth of Greek Philosophy.

Arthur

-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  _/_/_/     _/_/_/   _/_/_/_/   _/_/_/   _/_/_/_/   ||
_/     _/  _/     _/  _/     _/    _/     _/     _/  || "THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!"
_/         _/         _/     _/    _/     _/     _/  ||      THE HIGHLANDER
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history
From: ptg2351@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Panos Tamamidis )
Subject: Re: On Macedonia (was Re: Greece reacts sharply to remarks by Danish foreign minister)
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 02:48:09 GMT

agscrib@afterlife.ncsc.mil (Arthur Scribner) writes:

>That's not the first thing the Greeks tried to claim that was not theirs. I am
>referring to the fact that there is no such thing as Greek Philosophy. The 
>Greeks stole it from the Ancient Egyptians.

 It's getting amuzing now!!!

>Arthur

 Panos Tamamidis
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,alt.news.macedonia
From: irakliot@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Leo J. Irakliotis)
Subject: Re: Rob West + Steve Anderson
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 02:54:16 GMT
Reply-To: irakliot@lance.colostate.edu
Organization: Engineering Network Services, Colorado State University

In article <1k4nnnINNih0@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu>, bu008@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Brandon D. Ray) writes:

|> Actually, there are a great many people of Macedonian ancestry living in 
|> various Balkan countries, including Greece.  It is true that the Greek
|> gov't has spent most of the 20th century trying to deny this, and 
|> try systematically to stamp out all vestiges of Macedonian language and
|> culture...such as requiring Greek citizens of Macedonian descent to 
|> change their names to Greek ones, and prohibiting the establishment of
|> schools which teach in the Macedonian language...but that doesn't change
|> the *facts*.

Right. We even cut their tongues and their left ears.

Listen, what you describe is what happened in FYRM with Greeks.

There are no ethnic minorities in Greece and this is a well documented
and accepted fact.

Actually Greece recently co-signed the declaration of Minorities Rights
in the UN, a monumental document in the history of the Organization as they
were no provision to protect the rights of the minorities in the Chart,
apart from a quite vague and brief reference in Article 27.

-- 
Leo J Irakliotis                 irakliot@eva.lance.colostate.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Electrical Engineering                      l.irakliotis@ieee.org
Colorado State U
(303) 491-2021                              Optical Computing Lab
Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,alt.news.macedonia
From: tpd1@cec1.wustl.edu (Theodore P. David)
Subject: History of Cyprus - 9000 years old 
Organization: Washington University, St. Louis MO
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 07:32:46 GMT


In article <1993Jan22.150632.13474@ee.rochester.edu> terziogl@ee.rochester.edu (Esin Terzioglu) writes:
>To all Greek Cypriots who claim that Turkish Cypriots were once Greeks(!),
>
	Nobody claimed that ALL turkish Cypriots were once Greeks.

>1) There is no evidence in the history of Cyprus that says that "Greek" 
>   Cypriots are related to mainland Greeks (then Byzantium). Cyprus had a
>   blend of peoples who lived on the Island (Lusignans, Venicians etc.)
>   So, present "Greek" Cypriots consider themselves to be Greek because of
>   common language and religion with the mainland Greece.
>
	Cyprus has a history of 9000 years old. For the past 4000 years
Cyprus has been considered culturaly at least, Greek. There are thousands
of evidences proving that. Start from the ancient cities of Salamis, from
Kourion, Tamassos, Chitri, Engomi, Amathous (I don't know where to stop).
Moving to the Byzantime times, the huge number of greek orthodox monasteries
and churches says it all. (Stavrovouni, Kukkos, Maxairas, Panagia Kanakaria
(does this name rings a bell to you? mosaics maybe?).
Then pay a visit to the Metropolitan museum in New York. You will be amazed
to find out that there is no difference in the civilization in Cyprus and
mainland Greece (for the past 4000 years).
	Now, this is just an answer to your quote above. Don't start about
enosis plans, and Ali Pasa plan, or whatever.
	Through the discussions in the network with turkish cypriots (and
turkish) I got the feeling that History of Cyprus for them starts at the 
14-15th century; that is, when the Turks came to the area. Is this what
they/you are told in school? Is this how the course goes?
	History of ancient Cyprus: 14th century
		before that...the chaos.
>regards,
>E.T.
>
Regards,
Theodore David


Newsgroups: soc.culture.greek,alt.news.macedonia