HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: markbr%radian@natinst.com (markbr)
Subject: Re: the US elections...
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 18:48:20 GMT
Organization: n.o.y.b

I keep trying to let this die, then someone else chimes up, and I just
have problems letting it go unanswered.

In article <723965742.0@iphase.infoserv.com> Steve.Dugas@iphase.infoserv.com (Steve Dugas) writes:
>As far as the gun control part of this is concerned, criminals will
> be able to get a gun if they want one.  When guns are outlawed, only
> outlaws will have guns.  Gun control laws do make it easier on the

Have you been *reading* this thread? For the past month or so? Show me
where (please quote person & when) *anyone* has advocated outlawing all guns.

> perpetrators because they are more confident that their victims will
> be defenseless.  Even if they don't have guns, they will have some
> form of weapon if they want it.  w
>Why shouldn't a lady get herself trained in the PROPER use of and
> respect for a handgun and have it with her if needed?  I once saw a
> plaque that said "AN ARMED SOCIETY IS A POLITE SOCIETY".  There is a
> lot of truth to that. 

The button I have makes that a clause (gr?); it follows it with "ASK
ANY LEBANESE". Nowadays, any Serb, or Croat, or Bosnian will do as well.

>   I don't really know what all the name calling and insulting is for
> anyway.  I thought this was a Pagan net and that the contributors
> would understand some of the concepts of respect for other's views. 
> We may disagree, but we can at least be civil.  
>steve.

Since it's returned, I'll throw one more shot in the ring. A few months ago,
I came up with an idea, while arguing with some coworkers who are Libertarians.
No one really likes it, but with the exception of one guy who will argue
*any-bloody-thing*, everybody seems to be able to live with it. This makes
it a compromise. Has everyone forgotten that word, over the last dozen
years? The suggestion is this: lots of comparisons of guns to cars. Fine. 
Create a national gun license, *EXACTLY* like a car license. It does *NOT*
imply that you even own one. You take a gun safety course, and pass a test,
and have the background check *then*. Then, five minutes, or five years
later, you walk into a store, show them your license, buy the gun and an
insurance policy (or show proof of insurance, the purpose of which is to
take care of victims of either your gun, or part goes into afund to care
for victims of uninsured guns), and walk with your weapon. No waiting required.
No licensing of the firearm itself. Howzzat, guys?

	mark
From: dhardin@bbn.com (Dawn Hardin)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Sex vs. Gender -- Re: Witches on Gender Relations
Date: 14 Dec 1992 20:37:27 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: bbn.com

In article <1992Dec12.160457.6276@athena.cs.uga.edu>, tedr@athena.cs.uga.edu (Ted Kalivoda) writes:
> 
> And is "vanishing" something we should strive for?  (or "simply realize in
> the satori sense).  I would think that all pagans would completely reject
> the idea of a monistic universe, where everything is really illusion and no
> particular gods exists anyway.
> 
> Wouldn't ya'll agree?

You haven't been around here very long if you think there's ANYTHING that
we would all agree on.  Particularly a point of philosophy.

Dawn

Joseph Campbell gave me hope and now I have been saved.
"Folk Song" by Bongwater
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Recycling,
From: patrickm@netlink.cts.com (Patrick McKinnion)
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 12:44:28 PST
Organization: NetLink Online Communications, San Diego CA

   While on the comment of recycling items concidered to be 
"unrecyclable", my school, (Grossmont College, El Cajon, CA), just 
repaved all the campus roads using asphalt made from old auto tyres.
   What would be the potential for using ground porcelain in a simular 
road-concept ??  (example; Replacing the sand in concrete, or as a fill 
material in road construction ??
   Just thought I'd throw the concept out.
            Bright Blessings and 23's
                  Patrick McKinnion
                  (patrickm@netlink.cts.com)

--                    
INTERNET:  patrickm@netlink.cts.com (Patrick McKinnion)
UUCP:   ...!ryptyde!netlink!patrickm
NetLink Online Communications * Public Access in San Diego, CA (619) 453-1115
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: barry@netcom.com (Kenn Barry)
Subject: Re: Who are we kidding?
Organization: QQQCLC
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 21:51:32 GMT

In article <Bz932K.DF9@encore.com> aaldrich@encore.com (Al Aldrich) writes:
>barry@netcom.com (Kenn Barry) writes:
>>In article <Bz3LMr.5vA@encore.com> aaldrich@encore.com (Al Aldrich) writes:
>>>barry@netcom.com (Kenn Barry) writes:
>>>This sounds like trickle-down economics to me.. anybody else get this?
>>>Do I get this right? You believe that making the middle class wealthier
>>>is going to benifit the underpriviledged?
>
>>	Yeah, I do. And if you want a label to scare liberals with,
>>"trickle-down economics" is half-hearted; we're talking laissez-faire
>>capitalism here, a true free market. Count on the probability of new
>>robber barons in our future.
>
>You sure say a lot of stuff to answer a simple question. If you really believe
>that somehow the world is going to change and that the rich getting richer
>is going to bring up the poor, then my opinion is that you haven't been
>paying attention. Forget the labels and the political jargon. Look around
>you. 

	I have looked around, Al; suggest you do the same. Until the
Industrial Revolution, 90% of humanity was poor - REALLY poor, as in, a
bad year will kill you. But machinery increased the wealth of humanity
so quickly that the rich couldn't hoard it. Indeed, the old landed
gentry fell from power. Space works the same magic. And mass market
economies like our require mass consumerism; it's friendly to the idea
of spreading wealth around.

						Kayembee
From: haley@husc11.harvard.edu (Elizabeth Haley)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: PAGAN & NOMENCLATURE
Date: 20 Dec 92 12:34:48 GMT
Organization: Harvard Arts and Sciences Computer Services, Cambridge, MA
In-reply-to: kuvamp@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu's message of 19 Dec 92 16:50:27 CST

I can't "side" with Matt, since I never read the original post... 
But I do ask this: Is there a great need to identify oneself in any
manner beyond your name? The only time I can think of is when you are
attempting to establish your credentials, i.e. identifying yourself as
a repairman to the person who called for a repair...

Otherwise what does it matter? Sure, occasionally someone will ask you
what religion you are. My answer to that ranges from "Hamster worship"
to "Oh, a garden variety autotheist..." depending on my mood...

(It's funny, the one set of people that One would think would ask that
question at some point, a group of Campus Ministers of the Xtian
faith, didn't ask, except for one, who I truthfully told that I sought
my own internal godhead. He liked that and asked many interesting
questions, that have eventually helped me along... Now why can't the
garden variety {or even the store bought} Xtians act like that???)

Anyway, my point is that any label is limiting, and I think it
prefereable to force people to understand you in all reality, rather
than let their preconceived notions get in the way...

Remember, "Hi My name is Jack, and I'm a Witch" is just as bad as
"Hi my name is John, and I'm a Christian..."

How about "Hi, my name is David, and I'm still breathing..."
--
When life seems to be getting you down...
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
======David Charles Todd, tHE mAN wITH tHREE fIRST nAMES======
-------------------- David misses eBeth ----------------------
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-hacksaw@headcheese.daa.uc.edu=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
			   ...ask it why it is torturing geese
--
=------------------THE-AUTHOR-OF-THIS-SIGNATURE-IS-A-GERBIL!----------------=
=The author of this letter is a fabulously intelligent person and is very   =
=Silly. She is also remarkably well loved, by the author of this signature. =
=---------------------------haley@husc9.harvard.edu-------------------------=
From: ann@cco.caltech.edu (Ann Terese Heil)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Looking for names of gods and goddesses for baby
Date: 14 Dec 1992 20:59:45 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: alumni.caltech.edu

I am expecting my second child in a couple of months, and would like
to give her/him the name of a god or goddess or mythological character
as a middle name.  I am not particular about the mythology from which
the name is drawn.  My first born's middle name is Ra, after the 
Egyptian sun god.  Any and all suggestions would be very welcome!

I know this subject was discussed a couple of years ago.  Did someone
save a file of names that could forward it on to me?

peace
ann

Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: radzy@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU (T. O. Radzykewycz)
Subject: Re: Women and Men Witches
Organization: International Computer Science Institute, Berkeley, CA, U.S.A.
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 06:04:41 GMT

markbr%radian@natinst.com (markbr) writes:
> Let me get this straight (try #2): If somebody says that you have to
> carry a basket, and then sits on your shoulders while you do so, 
> refusing to let you do carry the basket any other way, and
> you then knock him off, this is power-over?
> 
> It's not *removing* someone else's power over *you*?

If you use force to "knock him off," then it's power-over.  Try
walking a different direction, which he doesn't want to go.  Try
kneeling or sitting down and not going anywhere.  Try putting the
basket down.  Those are ways to avoid power-over.

If you grab a big stick and beat this somebody over the head to
knock hir off your back, that's power-over.  (For the record: yes,
this use of power-over is an attempt to *remove* someone else's
power over *you*.  But it's still power-over.)

Look, it's not the *situation* that makes it a power-over.  It's
your reaction to it.  Is this so difficult to understand?

If someone wants to fight with you, then you can handle that
in a lot of ways.  One of them is to fight back.  Do you think
that fighting back is not fighting?  After all, the other person
started it!  --  Get real!  Fighting is fighting, regardless of who
started it.

Look, for at least the second time, it's possible for *both*
sides to employ the tool of power-over.  If you want to avoid
power-over, then you have to recognize it.  If you want to avoid
using power-over, then you have to try thinking of other ways
to handle the situations that come up.

Try #3: Do you really think that the goal (of removing someone
else's power over you) makes the use of force something other
than power-over?

Blessings!

Is anyone else reading this thread any more?

		-- radzy

------------------------------------------------------------
					|  An it harm none,
	T. O. Radzykewycz	     	|  do as ye will.
	The Incredible Radical Cabbage	|
					|  "Just pray for a
	radzy@cogsci.berkeley.edu       |  tough hide and a
	        			|  tender heart."
	        			|    -- Ruth Graham
------------------------------------------------------------
Tribal Mother was old, and lay ill on a bed of moss and
fern.   Her hair was long and grey.   Her face was very
wrinkled.    Tamura'nun-pa thought:   How beautiful you
are, Mother, so old and wise.
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: dawn@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Dawn Owens-Nicholson)
Subject: Re: Nomenclature./Men are Not witches!
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 00:51:22 GMT

tedr@athena.cs.uga.edu (Ted Kalivoda) writes:

>Okay, let's clear the air on this one.  Since when were men called witches? 
>The correct terminology for a man who endeavors to engage in magical
>practices is "Warlock".  The more gender nuetral term would be
>"Necromancer".  If I practiced magic, I surely wouldn't want to be called a
>witch. 

The word "warlock" comes from an old English word meaning "traitor, enemy,
or devil." (OED2)

"Witch" is a combination of two old english words: "wicce," a female witch or
practitioner of magic; and "wicca," a male witch.  Thus, the word "Witch"
should encompass both the male and the female.  "Witch" has only developed
feminine connotations in recent years, but still applies to both sexes in 
most usages.

"Necromancer" as a general term for Witches?  Not a good choice, since 
most people take necromancer to mean a person who communicates with the dead.

I just wonder why you so strongly feel that you would not want to be called
by the same term that women are called (if you were a witch).  I find your
reaction a bit extreme.  Don't you?

-Dawn
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: ljz57640@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (l.j.z. )
Subject: Re: meditation
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 05:05:41 GMT

asgds@acad2.alaska.edu writes:

>X-NEWS: acad2a alt.divination: 454
>Newsgroups: alt.divination
>Path: raven.alaska.edu!acad2.alaska.edu!asgds
>From: asgds@acad2.alaska.edu
>Subject: meditation
>Message-ID: <1992Dec16.135124.1@acad2.alaska.edu>
>Lines: 13
>Sender: news@raven.alaska.edu (USENET News System)
>Nntp-Posting-Host: acad2.alaska.edu
>Organization: University of Alaska
>Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 17:51:24 GMT


>	I recently meditated on a flame during a ritual.  ritual is my term
>for any time I perform magick.  Basically I light a candle and invoke God and
>the spirits and forces.  The rest is NOYB, Anyway, I stared deeply into the 
>flame and entered amild trance.  Not really a "trance" so much as a heightened
>state of awareness, I had a couple minor revelation's and came out of it,
>feeling positive and renewed.
>	I would be REALLY interested in hearing any similar experiences, and/or
>advice for achiveing a more prolonged and/or deeper meditative state.

Okie... how's this for a similar experience :)

Just the other day (which is a euphemism for "heck, I dunno exactly when
it was"), I was doing a little meditating by candlelight, to kind of try
to get rid of all the negativity I had been storing up over the past week
or two (finals week... ugh).  Welp, something highly unusual happened (well,
at least unusual for me) that one particular time.  You see, the way I 
handled the energy was like this: I concentrated every little bit into that
flame (which was quite a lot at the time), and eventually it reached the
point where I could *control* the flame.  That is, I could make it grow,
flicker, increase in brightness, and whatever, at will.  Twas a very 
effective release, let me tell you.  Needless to say, the whole experience
left me feeling a LOT better than when I started.

Just thought I'd share,
--L.


-- 
laura j zurawski      juniper@uiuc.edu
"Sometimes you can't explain your actions,
       sometimes you can't explain yourself."
"PUSH THE BUTTON, FRANK!"
From: sirbyte@brewich.hou.tx.us (William hancock)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Nomenclature./Men are Not witches!
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 92 14:10:26 CST
Organization: The Brewers' Witch BBS, +1 713 272 7350, Brewich.Hou.TX.US

billn@hpcvaac.cv.hp.com (bill nelson) writes:
> : The correct terminology for a man who endeavors to engage in magical
> : practices is "Warlock".  The more gender nuetral term would be
> : "Necromancer".  If I practiced magic, I surely wouldn't want to be called a
> :witch
A quick note a Necromancer invokes or Evokes 'infernal spirits' so i 
doubt that it could be used as a genderless term for witch.
> Who are you, a person who obviously knows little about religion, to be
> defining what terms people are to apply to themselves? 
> 
I just wanted to leave this last part in the rebutt because it is SO 
TRUE!
> Do you pray? If so, then you practice magic. Do you take communion? If
> so, then you practice magic. Do you sing in a choir, or as a member of
> the masses? If so, you practice magic. Do you raise children, or pets
> or animals? If so, you practice magic.  Need I go on?
> 
> Bill


(comments by SirByte'*)

------------------
sirbyte@brewich.hou.tx.us (William hancock)
Origin: The Brewers' Witch BBS -- Houston, TX -- +1 713 272 7350
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: trd54583@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (NM156)
Subject: Re: druid tree talking
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 18:39:56 GMT


                                                  9/17/92
While walking down the street today
I chanced upon a leaf.
A red leaf, having changed its color
from the rich green of summer
to a deep crimson...a sign that autumn was approaching.

Upon carrying it with me I wondered
what about that leaf had enchanted me so
that I stopped and picked it up.
After further musing on the subject
I was led to an answer...(perhaps
the leaf itself had told me so)
What exactly is a leaf? Drinking 
water from the rest of the tree?
Drawing sunlight from the sky?
Changing water and sunlight into food
to be used by the rest of the tree?
A worker? A producer? Ahh...but
what, then, is a tree? (to complicate 
matters further still)
Standing in its one place
all its life...
Watching patiently...
Giving us shade and
support when we lean against it...
Listening quietly when we talk...
Whispering us oxygen from
under its breath...
And, most importantly,
Observing!

Drawing water from its roots...
like the thinker 
drawing from his firm beliefs.
Drawing sunlight from the sky...
like the thinker
drawing upon her thoughts.
Drawing water from its roots...
like the writer
drawing ink into his pen.
Drawing sunlight from the sky...
like the writer
drawing upon her observations
of the world.

Changing water,
sunlight
into food.
Like the thinker
changing beliefs,
thoughts
into answers.
Like the writer
changing ink,
observations
into words.

Aha!
The tree, then, is a thinker...
The tree, then, is a writer.
Observing
thinking
then
writing
of all it's seen.

(But, even the thinker needs some space....
even the writer needs some paper...)

What, then, is a leaf?
Ask any tree -
	The ultimate thinker
		branching out its thoughts
	The ultimate history book
		writing volumes of history -
and you will get an answer:

The leaf...
a single tiny thought
	from the mind of a wise elder,
a single page of history
	from the mighty book of nature.

			--Tom Dobrowolsky
-- 
|\  |\   \|   |\/  |\  |\  /\  |\  |/	"In wildness is the preservation of the
|   | |   |\  |\/  |/  |/  \/  |   |/	 world / So seek the wolf in thyself"
|   | |   |   |    |\  |   /\  |   |               -"Of Wolf and Man" Metallica
  L   U   N   A   R   W   O   L   F      Tom Dobrowolsky - GreenSpleen@uiuc.edu
From: amadeus@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Susan Harwood Kaczmarczik)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Looking for names of gods and goddesses for baby
Date: 18 Dec 92 02:51:36 GMT
Organization: University of Texas at Austin

Aside from just general encyclopedic books of goddesses and gods, I
suggest _The Book of Goddesses and Heroines_ by Patricia Monaghan.
Lots of great names.

You might want to get a couple of just name books, which often give
these names and many variations.  Some of the better ones include:

_The Best Baby Name Book In the Whole Wide World_ by Bruce Lansky

_Beyond Jennifer and Jason, An Enlightened Guide to Baby Naming_ by
Rosenkrantz and Satran  
(Also, _Beyond Shannon and Sean_ by the same authors for Irish deities)

_The Tuttle Dictionary of Names_ by Julia Cresswell

You can use the mythological books to find names, and then check for
the meanings in the other books (for instance, you might like a name
but the meaning might be ill-chosen; or you might be looking for a
certain quality; or you like the sound of a name but the deity is not
one you want to be patron/ess to your child).

I feel compelled to mention that I just went through this whole
process last summer when my daughter was born -- I, the queen of the
name books, who had been collecting them since I was twelve, had all
sorts of great heroic and unusual names stored up just waiting for
her.  But when she came, her name, although a cool name, was neither
particularly pagan or unusual.

Just something to keep in mind... sometimes they name themselves.

Any road, those are my suggestions; good luck!

-- 
-----Susan Harwood Kaczmarczik-------------------------------*<:-)-------------
"Queens never make bargains."  -- The Red Queen, _Through the Looking Glass_
-----amadeus@ccwf.cc.utexas.edu--------------The University of Texas @Austin---
From: dhardin@bbn.com (Dawn Hardin)
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
Subject: Re: Start again.
Date: 14 Dec 1992 21:23:45 GMT
NNTP-Posting-Host: bbn.com

In article <gate.oBmmVB1w165w@pil.UUCP>, alizard@pil writes:

> > Should we start thinking in terms of (if
> > you'll pardon a somewhat pungent way of phrasing it, for the sake of a
> > quotable aphorism): "Jobs for the stupid!"?  (I mean jobs that satisfy,
> > either in terms of money or something less tangible, for the lower part
> 
> excellent question.      Problem with it is that makework jobs are
> extremely expensive to create.  A question I have about it is, do we
> WANT to create new shitwork jobs to replace the old ones? And do people
> actually want shitwork jobs?
> blessings

Well, he did say jobs that satisfy in one sense or another.

I don't think that the problem is quite so much what do we do with the
below average/non-techie person.  Most of the people that I know who are
chronically un/under-employed are perfectly bright and talented.  They
just know that it's easier to sponge off of someone else, or they never
got over that there weren't any openings for rock star, or they have some
emotional problem that keeps them from taking care of themselves.  I
think this society churns out a lot of basically disfunctional people and
also just doesn't value real work very highly. 

People who are below average intelligence can always take care of babies,
no matter how automated society becomes.  That just requires warmth, patience,
six hands and the ability to run all day long.  Ability to set the time
on your VCR optional.

Dawn

Joseph Campbell gave me hope and now I have been saved.
"Folk Song" by Bongwater
Newsgroups: alt.pagan
From: asgds@acad2.alaska.edu
Subject: Re: Skyclad ritual
Organization: University of Alaska
Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1992 22:37:24 GMT


	I consider Rituals to be cerremonies wherin I invoke God and then
procede to work magic.  Of the two rituals I have done so far (in the last 2
years) one was mostly skyclad.  (why is it called that by the way?)
	I don't really know why I chose to do a skyclad ritual, it just seemed
like the right thing to do for that ritual.  Since magic is a force that is
shaped through symbols, or a science of symbols, the descision of whether or
not you will do "it" in the nude really depends on what you wish to do with
or are trying to accomplish with
this ritual and what your nudity durring the ritual
 would symbolize to yourself and any others who
participate in you ritual.

	I would recomend talking to the other members of the group you have
recently joined and talk about the what and why of either their going skyclad,
or going skyclad in general.

			Love and miscellany:)
					Geoff
			Feel free to email me with the continueing saga...

Newsgroups: alt.pagan