HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: popovich@cs.columbia.edu (Steve Popovich)
Subject: Re: New ARSA question
Organization: Columbia University
	<1992Aug12.052121.25348@StarConn.com>
	<1992Aug12.212205.29603@eecs.nwu.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1992 22:46:48 GMT

In article <1992Aug12.052121.25348@StarConn.com>, jpp@StarConn.com (John Pettitt) writes:
|> If ATC gives you `sqwak VFR frequency change approved' while you are
|> still in the ARSA (heading out but some says to go) are you legal ?

This happens basically all the time, as far as I can tell, to people
landing at FRG going through the ISP ARSA, and I haven't noticed
people getting violated for it.  Basically, it looks like as soon as
the ARSA controller knows that you're not going to cross anyone else's
path while you're in the ARSA, he lets you go.  This is actually a
good thing, because by the time you're out of the ARSA, you're
practically in the pattern at FRG, and it's considered a good practice
to call and let the FRG tower know you're coming before you get there
:-).  Of course, you'd better not do anything funny after he releases
you, but reasonably expected actions like turning toward FRG and
descending to FRG pattern altitude don't seem to cause any problems.

ISP = Long Island MacArthur Airport, Islip, Long Island, New York
FRG = Republic Airport, East Farmingdale, Long Island, New York
	-Steve
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: geoff@peck.com (Geoff Peck)
Subject: Re: "remain clear of the ARSA..."
Organization: Geoffrey G. Peck, Consultant, San Jose CA
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1992 23:42:21 GMT

[Aargh.  This is turning into The ARSA Thread From H***.]

In article <skip.124.713448021@mitre.org>, skip@mitre.org (Skip Guild)
complains about a _potential_ difficulty when departing Van Nuys, which is
underneath the lip of the Burbank ARSA.  Several pilots who actually fly out
of Van Nuys have since responded "not a problem -- here's what to do".

In article <170@simsol.UUCP> jimm@simsol.UUCP (Jim Morris) writes:
> Just so you will know that it is not only VFR traffic that gets picked
> on in the LA basin, consider this:  I have departed Long Beach IFR,
> northbound, twice in the last couple of years. The clearance was the
> same each time. It sent me about 15 miles east, then fifteen miles
> north, then fifteen miles back to the west before I could finally
> proceed north to Lake Hughes.

This is one of the reasons I prefer to NOT file IFR.  ATC vectors you way
out of the way of their traffic, which allows them flexibility in routing
airliners ($$$) and makes it easy to keep sufficient separation between
aircraft.  If you go VFR, you can either (1) go through the Special Rules
Flight Area directly over LAX and not talk to anybody or (2) get a TCA
clearance, probably via the Shoreline Route if you're departing LGB.

It's very rare that you can get anything other than a very out-of-the-way
IFR routing out of Los Angeles, unless your destination is something like
Santa Barbara or Oxnard.  (Of course, you could be sneaky and file to SBA
or OXR, and then once clear of the TCA, change your route in the air ...
but I really wouldn't suggest doing that.)

By the way, in Southern California, there is a set of preferred routings,
called "Golf routes", which will give you a very good idea of what to expect
from ATC if you file IFR.  The Golf routes are organized by airport pairs
(departure / destination) and aircraft type (slow prop / fast prop /
turboprop / turbojet).  If you're going to or from an airport served by Golf
routes but the other end of your flight plan isn't one of those listed, you
might want to look at other airports which are more or less in the same
direction as you're going -- this will give you a clue as to what ATC
probably has in mind for you.  The Golf routes are an integral part of your
Jeppesen subcription; NOS users might be able to get the letter to airmen
which describes them from your FSDO.  The Golf routes are totally irrelevant
for VFR pilots.

						Geoff
From: jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: Doodling around the airport
Date: 21 Aug 1992 16:56:33 GMT
Organization: UT Health Science Center Houston

In article <1992Aug21.151453.10836@eecs.nwu.edu> phil@eecs.nwu.edu (William LeFebvre) writes:
[about a drive-in movie theater near PWK]
>If I could get the sound somehow, I could sit on the taxiway and
>watch the movie.  :-)

Most drive-ins these days broadcast the sound over a low-power AM radio, so
that viewers can tune it in on their car radios. Sounds like you just need to
check out your ADF. :-)
-- 
Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can
jmaynard@oac.hsc.uth.tmc.edu      | adequately be explained by stupidity.
  "Anything that an F-4 can outturn is not maneuverable." -- Mary Shafer
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: mvthiel%asylum.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Mike van Thiel)
Subject: Flying trip in western USA
Date: 12 Aug 92 19:02:23 MDT
Organization: University of Utah CS Dept

Hi,

Almost got my Instrument Rating and then I am on my way for a 16 day 
trip in the western USA. I was wondering if any of you have done parts
of this trip or just know a lot. I am looking for any information you 
can give me, like Hints, Nice places to fly, Advice, What to do for sure, 
What not to do etc. etc.

I'm going to be Flying a Piper Arrow PA-28-200 and the basic route I'm 
thinking about is :

Salt Lalke City - Moab (Canyonlands) - Lake Powell - Bryce - Zion - 
Las Vegas - Grand canyon - (long Flight) - Monterey (CA.) - NAPA valley -
San Fransisco - Up the coast to Seattle - San Juans - Montana - Yellowstone -
and back to Salt Lake.

Hope to hear from you.

Mike
mvthiel@asylum.cs.utah.edu
From: karl@bodi.portal.com (Karl Kraft)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: Flying in to Long Beach to see the Spruce Goose (seeking information)
Date: 8 Aug 92 00:08:26 GMT

You wrote:
>A few of us from our local flying club are planning on a going to LA
>(Long Beach, LGB) to see the Spruce Goose on 8/15, before they move
>it to Oregon.  Could someone experienced with this area email
>me the following information about doing this?
>

This is the first I've heard of this.   How are they planning on moving it to Oregon?  Are  
they going to fly it there?  Or something less dramatic?


--
Karl Kraft
karl@bodi.portal.com  (NeXT mail)
From: pstinson@pbs.org
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Amer.Aviation Hist. Soc.?
Date: 17 Aug 92 09:52:39 EDT
Organization: PBS:Public Broadcasting Service, Alexandria, VA

I recently tried to contact the American Aviation Historical Society at the
only address I had for it - Box 99, Garden Grove, CA 92642.  The letter,
however, was returned marked "FORWARD ORDER EXPIRED."

Does anyone have the new address for the American Aviation Historical Society?
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: mikec@tabasco.lcs.mit.edu (Mike Ciholas)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: New Avionics
Date: 17 Aug 92 17:39:29 GMT
Organization: MIT Laboratory for Computer Science

After ~330 hours as PP ASEL, I have a sudden uncontrollable urge to
outfit my airplane with avionics and get an instrument rating.  I have
several questions that I don't have enough experience to answer (and
may be generally useful to others):

General questions:

1. Should DME be in my panel for instrument training?  Can I simulate
it with my GPS?  What happens if you never train for DME arc
approaches, do you have a limitation on your license?

2. How should I arrange the two VOR indicators and ADF indicator for
the best scan?

Specific questions:

1. Can anyone offer comments on the realtive quality of avionics made
by King, Narco, and Terra?  I like the small Terra digital display
series due to its low power, small size, and cost effectiveness.
Anyone have one of these setups?  Anyone used their Tri-Nav digital
VOR indicator?

2. How is service for the various avionics brands?  It seems that I
can get King service everywhere, and that Terras must be shipped back
to the factory.  How about Narco?

3. I plan to install the avionics myself.  I am told that you cannot
buy King stuff without having an authorized King dealer install it.
How do homebuilders get it?  I forsee less trouble with Terra or
Narco.

4. Anyone have the Terra audio panel with built in intercom? (model
350?)  Do you like it?

I will summarize for the net, so send me email.

Mike Ciholas
mikec@lcs.mit.edu

PS:  The plane is a Cessna 170B with 180HP/CS conversion.
From: dfr@usna.navy.mil (PROF D. Rogers (EAS FAC))
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: Precision Circling Approaches
Keywords: IFR
Date: 15 Aug 92 02:06:35 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: U. S. Naval Academy, Annapolis, MD

In article <24Hs02qn1eRz01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com! kzk00@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (  200  Klaus Kraemer) writes:
!In article <71196@apple.Apple.COM! rcm@Apple.COM (Robert Charles Monsen) writes:
!!I have a question about circling procedures on an ILS. The question is,
!!where is the MAP? If its an ILS, the MAP is defined as the intersection
!!of the DH and the glideslope. However, for circling approaches, that would
!!put one far out the glideslope, perhaps miles, when beginning the missed
!!approach procedure. (for an 800' circling altitude, thats almost 3 miles
!!on a 3 degree glideslope).
!!
!!I suspect that circling approaches are only defined for non-precision
!!procedures, and that the MAP is always defined the same way the corresponding
!!MAP for the non-precision approach is defined, either time, cross fix, or DME.
!!If there are circling minimums for an ILS, they apply to the corresponding
!!localizer approach.

!An ILS approach clearance "circle to land" on a runway other than
!the one named in the approach (e.g., Arcata, CA, ILS Rwy 32, circle to
!land runway 14) is a precision approach up to the point where the
!glideslope intercepts the MDA for circling approaches. That is, FAF
!(final approach fix) is at glideslope intercept, not the outer marker as
!it would be on a non-precision approach, and the glideslope IS TO BE
!FOLLOWED down to MDA. At this point, the approach becomes a non-precision
!approach, and you better have your clock started at the marker because the
!MAP is now determined by timing (usually), not by arrival at a certain
!Altitude.

Well here is a somewhat different case. What would you do?

You are cleared for the ILS at an uncontroled airport,
know that you have a slight tailwind and are choosing
to make a downwind landing.

You breakout at midfield, too far down the runway to land -- tailwind
you know -- but see the intersecting runway (say at a 25 degree +-
intersecting angle) clearly.

Would you circle to land upwind on the intersecting runway?

Bet you would -- instinctively.

Dave Rogers
From: rjohnson@sdf.lonestar.org (Robert C. Johnson)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: TRSA's
Date: 19 Aug 92 15:16:36 GMT
Organization: sdf pub access UNIX, Dallas--anon logins & uucp avail, no fees


Well, soon I will be leaving the cozy airspace of the DFW area to head
back to school as a freshly christend PP-ASEL.  Looking over the 
New York sectional, I admire the nicely uncluttered airspace, and 
say: "Ahhhhh. . .For a while I don't have to worry about the TCA."
(BTW-  for those of you who think I've lost it, I am talking about 
upstate NY, not anywhere near the city.  The closest city to Hamilton,
NY (where Colgate is) is Syracuse. . .)

Anyways, while looking at the chart, I noticed that a few cities had
these funky looking things called TRSA's.  Huh?  OK, go to the AIM and
check it out.  The AIM says generally that a TRSA is a area
where stage III radar services are provided.  Pilots are encouraged
to participate, but not required.  OK, great.  So I can just fly right
through a TRSA and not worry about a thing?  I guess what I'm asking
for here is some real world experience with TRSA's.  Is it as
simple as the AIM makes them seem?  If I want it, it's there, if
I don't, I don't have to do anything except fly along in an
uncontrolled (from the ground) bliss?  Any experiances would be
welcome!

    Robert Johnson, PP-ASEL
      rjohnson@sdf.lonestar.org
      rjohnson@colgate.edu

P.S. Another dumb question: how do you pronounce "TRSA"??????  (Or do
     you??)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: bullock@watson.bms.com (JOAN BULLOCK)
Subject: Re: So what' so great about Nut Tree?
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  
Organization: Bristol Myers Squibb Pharmaceutical Research Institute
Distribution: usa
Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1992 19:42:00 GMT

In article <JKF.92Aug14154515@frisky.Franz.COM>, jkf@Franz.COM (Sean Foderaro) 
writes...
> To me what make the Nut Tree interesting is that it is the airplane
>equivalent of the Interstate restaurant/gas/gift shop complex.  
>[Since it is next to Interstate 80 this isn't too surprising, however it
>is clear that people arriving by air are 'more welcome' than those arriving 
>by car (e.g. a free ride on the train).] 
> If airplanes for personal transportation really had caught on and
>practically everyone had one, then there would be Nut Tree like complexes
>all over the place.  However, I've never seen anything like it anywhere else.
>The demand never materialized.  For this reason alone it is 
>worth visiting at least once.


    OK, now you've piqued my curiosity.  Having eaten at enough airport 
"greasy spoons", I've been breezing by the culinary critique.  

    What exactly is this place?  I.e. please expand on the "restaurant/gas/
gift shop complex" description.

    And where is it?

    Thanks.


Joan Bullock
Warrior N2227Z
bullock@bms.com
From: martinl@torolab6.VNET.IBM.COM
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 92 09:31:16 EDT
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Hot Starting Decathlons
Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not those of IBM
News-Software: Usenet 3.0

> today I noticed the only downside - hot start. we couldn't

The Decathlon (not Decathalon) has a very tighly cowled engine, and will
get vapour lock easily. (I used to have one). To hot start it, try the
following:

1.With mixture in ICO, turn on the boost pump.
2.Wait a long time.
3.Full throttle, Mixture rich for about 10 seconds.
4.Half throttle, mixture ICO.
5.Using left mag only (use the left mag only for cold starts, too),
hit the start button.
6.It might take lots of blades, but it should start.
7.When it catches, throw your hands around the cockpit in some frenzy,
trying to put all the controls in their proper place.

The tightly cowled engine will also tend to give you high oil temperatures -
in the summer expect to see them close to redline a lot. This is normal.
If you use a semi-synthetic oil like 15w50, this will help to reduce the
temperature a bit.

Martin Langhammer
From: chem4-aa@garnet.berkeley.edu (Lonnie C. Martin)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: CAS vs IAS
Date: 19 Aug 1992 02:16:16 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Aug18.215225.19256@erenj.com> bdboyle@erenj.com (Bryan D. Boyle) writes:
>Indicated Air Speed (IAS) is read directly off the face of the ASI,
>Calibrated Air Speed, or IAS corrected for sensor and indicator
>placement/error is based on engineering data and mathematical models
>concerning the operation of the pitot/static system.  True airspeed
... etc.

CAS vs. IAS is also affected by flap position, at least in some aircraft.

Lonnie
-- 
Lonnie C. Martin    lonnie@hydrogen.cchem.berkeley.edu
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: phil@eecs.nwu.edu (William LeFebvre)
Subject: Re: 5 in a 4 seater (was: Small crash / Chrokee Question)
Organization: EECS Department, Northwestern University
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1992 15:35:39 GMT

In article <Aug.20.11.28.48.1992.12490@pilot.njin.net>, ron@pilot.njin.net (Ron Natalie) writes:
|> The US Far's require each passenger to be in a seat equipped with a
|> seat belt.  The ambiguity is if whether two children in one seat
|> sharing the seatbelt meats the letter of the regulation.

I believe it does not.  I believe the regulation requires individual
seats and belts.  There is an excpetion, tho:  individuals who "have not
reached their second birthday" may ride in an adult's lap.

		William LeFebvre
		Computing Facilities Manager and Analyst
		Department of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
		Northwestern University
		<phil@eecs.nwu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
From: reece@eco.twg.com (Reece R. Pollack)
Subject: Re: CAS vs. IAS (was: Stupid Pilot Trick Awards)
Reply-To: reece@eco.twg.com (Reece R. Pollack)
Organization: The Wollongong Group (East Coast Operations)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 92 14:45:19 GMT


In article <11AUG199214070574@mars.lerc.nasa.gov>, fskevin@mars.lerc.nasa.gov (Kevin R. Kirtley (SVER)) writes:
|>In article <1992Aug11.001040.22987@eco.twg.com>, reece@eco.twg.com (Reece R. Pollack) writes...
|>> 
|>>CAS is IAS corrected for instrument errors. For
|>>example, in the PA28-151 I trained in, IAS = CAS only at one specific weight
|>>and speed (100mph and 2350lbs, if I remember correctly); as the weight and
|>>speed diverge from those numbers, the IAS is increasingly inaccurate.
|>> 
|>That's right.
|>
|>>I believe the error in caused by changes in pitch attitude, 
|>
|>That's right too.
|>
|>>which affects the airflow down the pitot tube, 
|>
|>That's not right.
|>
|>>but I'll leave that for another discussion.
|>
|>But I won't.

Ah, but you have! This *is* another discussion: you changed the topic! :-)

|>  The Pitot tube is a pressure sensing device and there is NO
|>flow of air through the system unless you have a leak.  The three largest
|>errors in the airspeed indication system are (assuming the actual instrument
|>in the panel is error free) Angle of Attack, Altitude, and Leaks.

Alright, alright! I withdraw the word 'flow' from my statement. I just
couldn't come up with a better word for the pressure exerted down the
tube.

Anyway, when you're changing altitude, there *is* a flow. Not much, I'll
admit, but it's still a flow. So there!

--
Reece R. Pollack
PP-ASEL -- Octopus Flying Club (based GAI)
Spending too much time wearing a damn hood!
From: masys@nlm.nih.gov (Dr. Daniel R. Masys)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation
Subject: Re: Regional differences in IFR route assignment (was: I give up...)
Date: 21 Aug 92 13:06:41 GMT
Organization: National Library of Medicine

In article <greg.714330300@saltydog> greg@saltydog.dpsi.com (Gregory R. Travis) writes:
>
>Well, Dave Rogers says that he gets what he files in the NE and I
>believe him.  But I don't know how he does it.  I CAN get what I
>file in the NE if I file the IFR "preferred" routes. 

I can't assert that I actually understand Northeast IFR routing, but I
have a theory, based on perhaps a dozen or so trips from Maryland to
various parts of New England.  

My theory is that the airspace which causes all of the bizarre vectors
is the northwest approach to NYC and Philadelphia.  If you as a GA pilot
filing IFR want to transit northern NJ/southern NY (the Hudson river
valley area south of Poughkeepsie) on your way to *anywhere*, you will
likely be given a) a vectorized zigzag far north of your preferred route,
and b) not less than 6 enroute amendments :-).

How different it is flying south of this airspace.  Dave Rogers and I
are both based at Bay Bridge airport, which is southeast of Baltimore,
southeast of Philadelphia, and so our route to New England does not take
us the long way around to the north of NYC/PHL airspace (which is the
way I always got routed when based at Gaithersburg, 20 nm to the west
of Baltimore).  Instead, IF we file for altitudes below those owned by
Washington and NY Center (i.e., less than 9000), we generally get an
accommodating series of handoffs from Atlantic City to McGuire to
NYC Approach, and a routing which usually goes right over the top of
JFK enroute to the northeast.

I think it would be courteous of ATC to put notations on IFR charts,
perhaps with shaded areas, analogous to "Caution: magnetic disturbance"
which warn the GA pilot "Caution: Unpredictable clearances issued in
this airspace--expect delays" ;-)

Dan Masys
masys@nlm.nih.gov
From: scott@hplvec.LVLD.HP.COM (Scott Turner)
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1992 15:22:34 GMT
Subject: Re: Traffic around Oshkosh...
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Co., Loveland, CO
Newsgroups: rec.aviation

In rec.aviation, jle@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Jerwrites:


> FAA can put temp towers in the strangest places.  I bumped into one in
> Torrington, WY a few years back...  Fortunately, FSS in Scottsbluff,
> Nebraska warned me first!

And I bumped into one in Liberal Kansas a few years back.
Unfortunately, FSS in Denver hadn't informed me!  Luckily an early call
to Unicom got me the necessary information.

Repeat after me, "I hate the way the NOTAM system works, I hate the way
the NOTAM system works..."


Scott Turner  scott@hpisla.LVLD.HP.COM
HP VXI Systems Division
Turbo Arrow N2134N  "Baby"

Xref: sparky rec.aviation:13319 sdnet.general:130
From: brian@ucsd.edu (Brian Kantor)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation,sdnet.general
Subject: Re: Need Info on Miramar NAS Airshow
Date: 13 Aug 1992 02:49:08 GMT
Organization: The Avant-Garde of the Now, Ltd.
Distribution: ca
NNTP-Posting-Host: ucsd.edu

bruceh@fps.com (Bruce T. Hill) writes:
>Anyone have any tips for a first time attendee with two small children?

Feed them to the lions.

Take hats and water and go early.  Wear sunscreen and stay near the
toilets.  Expect a two-hour traffic jam coming and going (ride a bike
if you can).

If you're REALLY fascinated with loud jets zooming at you, go to the
baseball field at the corner of Governor Drive and Gullstrand street
in University City.  There's no parking there so you'll have to bike
or walk, but they use that field to line up the runway and you'll
actually be closer to the jets (briefly) than you would be at the show
- but you'll miss the other "attractions"(?).

Those of us who live underneath the flight path find the show a lot less
thrilling each year.  How many thousands of dollars a minute does it
take to fly those things?  How many homeless people could we feed and
shelter for how long instead of putting on this useless demonstration
of awesome killing machinery?

Naw, forget I asked.

Go.  You'll enjoy it.
	- Brian