HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: pafford@metis.rtp.dg.com (Randy Pafford)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: .45 caliber handguns
Date: 21 Nov 92 23:35:05 GMT
Organization: Data General Corp., Research Triangle Park, NC

In article <27504@dog.ee.lbl.gov>, bercov@bevsun.bev.lbl.gov (John Bercovitz) writes:
|> In article <1992Nov17.023032.19198@igor.tamri.com> donb@igor.tamri.com 
|> (Don Baldwin) writes:

	stuff deleted that I generally agreed with.
|> 
|> The GC won't solve the problem.  To be honest, it shoots about a 3" or 4"
|> 5-shot group at 25 yards before it's accurized.  Most of the other
|> manufacturers do a little worse.  Not that that matters if you're going
|> to have it built up.  One advantage of Colt guns is that they're generally
|> better finished.  But you sure get to pay a lot for the aesthetics.
|> 
|> Springfield sells some very good guns for 2K$ or thereabouts.  You could
|> go for something like that.  Or you could by a GC or Gov't model and
|> have it accurized for maybe $700 additional.  I guess the question you
|> have to ask yourself is, "How long am I going to be satisfied with 4"
|> groups at 25 yards?"
|> 
|> John Bercovitz     (JHBercovitz@lbl.gov)
|> 

I just wanted to throw in a couple of opinions on the last bit . . .

1) Accurizing -- I would expect to pay $200 - $300 to have a match
   barrel and bushing fitted to a 1911 or clone.  Properly done,
   this will give it that somewhat nebulous "target accuracy."  For another
   few bucks you could get the slide fitted to the frame, but that's
   less important.

2) After accurizing, you could pay $100 or less and have a pretty good trigger
   job done (warning -- trigger jobs are works of art, not science).
   Other typical 1911 tunes are beavertails (about $75 installed), and
   adjustable sights ($150 installed).  Then you get into the more
   exotic stuff.  

3) I don't think any of the previous posts on this subject, including 
   mine, emphasized enough that a gun used much for paper-punching
   requires adjustable sights.  It's just not fun trying to hit something 
   when you can't adjust your sights for distance and load and 
   aim right at it :-).
   Gold Cups have adjustables, other 1911s and clones usually won't, nor 
   will SIGs, etc.  You can get a Glock with adjustable sights, but don't 
   -- the Glock adjustable sights are small and fragile.  
  
4) The Gold Cup adjustable sights are functionally very good (precise,
   nice sight picture) but as John noted somewhat fragile for heavy use.
   That's one reason people often start with Govt models instead; for
   about $150 you can get very durable adjustable sights installed,
   good for target use and sturdy enough for other uses.

5) 4 inch groups at 25 yards is maybe a little pessimistic; you might get 
   2 to 3 inches if you are lucky, and find loads the gun likes.

Like I said before; buy a Glock and a .22 :-).  You'll have two toys
for about the price of one.  It's easy to buy a .22 that is more accurate
than just about any centerfire semi-autos.

Randy
From: ke4zv!gary@gatech.edu (Gary Coffman)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: LASERs - rangefinders?
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:15:52 GMT
Organization: Gannett Technologies Group

In article <199211170430.AA12256@ucsu.Colorado.EDU> fcrary@ucsu.Colorado.EDU (Frank Crary) writes:
#
#And if you were shooting at a large (over, say, 2 m^2) metal target.
#Radar only works on things which reflect radio waves. The one of the
#advantages of laser ranger-finders is that it will work on anything
#which reflects light (e.g. anything not painted black.)

My speed radar clocks *me* walking across the yard. As the range lengthens,
you need a larger, or more reflective, target of course, but radar reflects
from almost anything metal or not. They use them to clock major league
baseball pitchers you know.

With typical *infrared* lasers, black is not a handicap. Some things
that don't *look* reflective to the eye look very reflective to the
IR laser, and some things that look like they should be reflective,
aren't.

Since this thread came up, I became curious about laser speed meters.
The Georgia State Patrol just got some of these on trial, so I went
snooping. (Press credentials are sometimes handy.) They've been testing
the system on I-85 north of Atlanta. For those of you in the area, that's
why they painted all those lines across the expressway. They're using
VASCAR as a calibration check, and using the marks as known range marks
for the laser system.

Ok, here's what I found out. The units use "eye safe" lasers. That
means their output is less than 1 mw. Range with an uncooperative
target is only about 200-300 meters. With a retro-reflector, range
is much better, up to 1/2 mile. Unfortunately for most motorists,
taillight housings and headlight housings make fine retro-reflectors.

The systems don't work in motion yet, and the target has to be moving
either straight away or straight toward the unit to get a good reading.
The beam is very narrow, it's possible to reliably pick one car out
of a pack. There is an integral video camera with the capability of
feeding a recorder. When they get you, they have a tape of your car
with the speed superposed on the screen and the laser dot visible.
The unit does use pulse ranging and requires about 1 second to get
a valid speed indication. Thus it seems worthless for field chronographing
of bullets. They are about $5,000 each right now and are unlikely to go 
into widespread use here any time soon.

I don't see any application for them in the shooting sports that
isn't better served by split field optical rangefinders or ordinary
radar. John DeArmond has better speed radars than I have. I wonder
if he'd comment on the possibility of using one to chronograph
bullets in flight. My unit gives a confused whistle, but no valid
speed readings. I suspect it's seeing the radially expanding shock
wave and not the bullet. The doppler on the bullet would be in the
ultrasonic range. My unit is an old 1 watt klystron CARS-8.

Gary
From: hollombe@polymath.tti.com (The Polymath)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: follow up to shotgun question i raised earlier....
Date: 20 Nov 92 13:47:06 GMT
Organization: The Cat Factory

In article <62119@mimsy.umd.edu> purtilo@cs.umd.edu writes:

}---   The Scattergun product is described as using a "Laser Products SUREFIRE
}      tactical light, model 318".  The picture of this looks *very* appealing,
}      but no reference is given for how to find this company directly.  Does
}      anyone out there know how to track them down???

I don't, but I bought a SureFire fore-end for my 870 at a local gun shop.
Cost about $115 (ouch).  So far I'm under budget for duplicating the
combat 870 sold by another shop for $700.

Question:  I was under the impression that a side car for the 870 would
attach to the receiver using existing screw holes.  My police magnum is
held together with a couple of pins -- no screws to remove and replace.
Will I have to let a smith do the attachment?

The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: hollombe@polymath.tti.com)
Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp
3100 Ocean Park Blvd.   (310) 450-9111, x2483
Santa Monica, CA  90405
From: ka02@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu (Kent P. Aitchison)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Glocks
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:09:10 GMT
Organization: Lehigh University

##This is unacceptable. My 1911A1 will feed Round nose lead reloads
##FLAWLESSLY and it has never had ANY feedramp or throat work of any kind.
##It also feeds semiwadcutters with only an occaisional jam (less than 1
##in 100).
#
#I've never seen anything in the Glock manual mentioning lead bullets,
#and nothing on firing reloads beyond the obligitory warning that all
#manufacturer's warnings.
#
##Is it possible to get a feed job done on a Glock to let it run lead bullets??
#
#Not necessary.  I've fired a couple thousand 124 grain LRN bullets and
#500 or so 115 grain SWC loads in a Glock 19 with no trouble and no
#rework.
#
    My G20 eats 175 grain lead SWC reloads almost exclusively - thousands so
far and never a feed problem.

    My housemate's G21 eats anything he gives it, never choked once.  He feeds
his fish catfood and treats his Glock with the same TLC.  It's fed hundreds of
flying ashtrays and even .451 cal. round balls for cap & ball revolvers with
black powder.

    I was surprised to see this, I've always heard that the 1911's need the
polishing.



-- 

****************************************
**     Kent P. Aitchison              **
**       ka02@ns1.cc.lehigh.edu       **
**       Rauch Business Center 211    **
**       #37 Lehigh University        **
**       Bethlehem, PA  18015         **
From: leem@jpl-devvax.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Lee Mellinger)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Fletchette
Date: 19 Nov 92 21:05:00 GMT
Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory (NASA)

In article <9211181018.aa22003@claudius.pica.army.mil> erudnick@pica.army.mil (FSAC-SID) writes:
:
:Matt Moore writes:
:#Any such ammunition would be illegal for American civilians
:
:Flechettes are made of steel, like their cousins nails :)
:
:And no they are NOT illegal for civilians, because while the AP bullet
:bans are materials-oriented, they also specify HANDGUN ammunition. Notice
:that 7.62mm NATO AP is banned because there are .308 handguns, while
:7.9x57 Mauser AP is abundant.
:
:
:Ed Rudnicki     erudnick@pica.army.mil     All disclaimers apply
:


Flechettes of any kind are banned in California and have been for a
long time.  This may also be true in other states.


Lee

"Mit Pulver und Blei, die Gedanken sind frei."

|Lee F. Mellinger                 Caltech/Jet Propulsion Laboratory - NASA
|4800 Oak Grove Drive, Pasadena, CA 91109 818/354-1163  FTS 792-1163     
|leem@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV
From: gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: AMT .380, Colt Mustang, or other?
Date: 19 Nov 92 21:04:55 GMT
Organization: U.S. Army Ballistic Research Lab, APG MD.


In article <1992Nov14.180840.5974@henson.cc.wwu.edu> n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio) writes:
#	It half-cocks.  You cannot cock the gun using only the trigger. 
#You cannot cock the gun without moving the slide.  If you hit a dud
#you cannot hit it again using only the trigger*.  When this is
#the case, you know you have a sigle action gun, _a gun whose trigger
#cannot fully cock and release the hammer_.

As the fellow said, you shouldn't try to apply these antique
categories (SA, DA) to actions that differ radically from older
designs.  In fact Glocks partially preload the striker spring
and pulling the trigger completes the cocking (among other things).
There is no way to cock the striker by manipulating the slide.
What you are referring to is actually resetting the trigger
mechanism so that it can engage the tang on the striker, permitting
a subsequent trigger pull to cock (then release) the striker.

It is better to understand the actual mechanism than to lose
valuable information by mapping it into terminology that doesn't
convey much information.  The usual definition of "single action"
is not what you gave but rather "the trigger performs one
function, that of releasing a striking mechanism that was
previously cocked by some other means" and "double action" is
"the trigger pull first cocks the striking mechanism then releases
it".  The problem is that there are guns these days that don't
exactly fit either model.  Glocks certainly come closer to the
definition of DA than SA but their "safe action" has features
that aren't adequately modeled as pure SA or pure DA.

#* I know about tap rack bang.  I don't want to discuss the merits of
#this act, merely that it is impossible with single action guns, and
#impossible with the glock.

?  One most certainly CAN clear a misfire (unlikely) or jam (more
likely) in a Glock pistol by the usual tap-rack-bang procedure.
In fact it also works for SA pistols like the M1911A1.
From: hudson@ualr.edu
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Carrying Weapons Laws - Oklahoma, Arkansas, Missouri
Date: 19 Nov 92 15:13:52 GMT
Organization: University of Arkansas at Little Rock

In article <1992Nov16.162600.12840@hou.amoco.com>, zwbm07@hou.amoco.com (Walter Moore) writes:
# I'm going to travel from Houston Texas to St. Louis Missouri and back again.
# I was wondering what the laws were concerning carrying handguns in/thru the
# states of Oklahoma, Arkansas and Missouri.  I know that I can carry in Texas while
# traveling. Any help would be appreciated.
# 

Travel through Arkansas is basically like Texas, with one exception.  In 
Arkansas, if you are stopped by police, etc..., they may confiscate your 
weapon if it is loaded and in the passenger compartment.  You may go to 
court and plead innocent, citing the law that establishes the right to 
carry while traveling and are supposed to get your weapon back.  I don't 
know anyone who this has happened to, but it could be a little difficult, 
since they could actually take possession of your property.

I lived in MO also, but can't remember exactly how it was done there.  I 
think it is more like "don't carry anytime".  I do know that when I went to 
the range, I kept guns and ammo separated.

Good luck with it.

BTW call NRA and ask for the booklets on Firearms Laws in Texas, Arkansas,
and Missouri.  They are free and summarize the state laws well.

Keith


___________________________________________________________

Keith Hudson		hudson%eivax@ualr.edu	(best)
   N5EEZ		mkhudson@ualr.edu	(secondary)
-----------------------------------------------------------
          University of Arkansas at Little Rock
      Department of Electronics and Instrumentation
___________________________________________________________
From: njessup@amc.edu.au (Nigel Jessup)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Uberti 44Mag BuckHorn
Date: 22 Nov 92 23:55:44 GMT
Organization: Australian Maritime College

I've just purchased a Uberti Buckhorn .44Mag, 7 1/2" target model. Any
one with any experiance
or any information on this model would be greatly appreciated.
I'm already a Uberti convert so you needn't tell me how good they are.
Please Email your
responses.
#########################
Nigel Jessup
NJessup@compserv.amc.edu.au
Australian Maritime College
Launceston Tasmania 7248
#########################
From: hes@unity.ncsu.edu (Henry E. Schaffer)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: New manufacture SKS vs 1950's millitary issue
Date: 23 Nov 92 14:24:36 GMT
Organization: North Carolina State University


  The current issue (I got it this week) of the Gun Nutz Shooting
Enthusiast Catalog (E. Arthur Brown Co., 3404 Pawnee Dr.,
Alexandria, MN  56308 612 762 8847) has an article (tirade?) on SKS 
Sporting Rifles.

  They claim that the Mil Spec guns (with "totally milled, one piece
trigger assemblies", "threaded-on barrels that are pretty thick 
where they attach to the reciever" and Chinese characters or a
triangular arsenal marking on the left isde of the receiver and
which probably come in cosmoline, and which were made in the
60's and 70's) are excellent and accurate.  They say that
the new production non-mil spec SKS rifles aren't nearly as good.

  The bayonet type doesn't seem to be a good indicator or type,
but the blade bayonets seem to be carrying a higher price.

  This company sells the mil spec SKS with a suggested retail of
$169.95 and an FFL Dealer Price of $134.95 (including a cleaning
rod and kit, blade type bayonet, with cosmoline semi-cleaned off.
They also have a detachable 30 round mag for 24.95/21.95
a scope system and fixed and folding stocks.

--henry schaffer  n c state univ
From: cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu (Chris Luchini)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: 357 max ruger
Date: 23 Nov 92 14:24:51 GMT
Organization: High Energy Physics, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign

Anyone out there have or know of someone who has a ruger 357 max?

I've got one NIB never been fired, but I only intened to convert it
to a 500 Max, so choping up a perfectly good gun would be a waste.
If you have, or know of someone who has, a 357 max that has
a shot out barrel, or is in less than good condition, I'm interested
in a trade of my gun for your gun+cash. 

The only proviso is that you gun must pass the 'base pin' test, ie
that the frame holes for the base pin are not enlarged. 
*1110 W. Green/Urbana IL 61801/217-333-0505/cbl@uihepa.hep.uiuc.edu
From: n9020351@henson.cc.wwu.edu (James Douglas Del-Vecchio)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Hungarian Model 61 .380ACP?
Date: 20 Nov 92 13:46:51 GMT
Organization: Western Washington University

boardman%cancer.unm.edu@lynx.unm.edu (Bob Boardman) writes:

#    I've been seeing some ads for these pistols in _SGN_ for about
#  $130, and they look like quite a deal - PPK clones with alloy frame/
#  steel slide, in .380 ACP instead of 9x18 Makarov.  Has anyone on the
#  net had a chance to shoot one of these yet?  I'd be interested in
#  impressions, opinions, whatever, from anyone who has even handled one
#  of these.

Crap.  I asked to look at one at the place I buy my stuff, and
the guy just said that it (the FEG .380) was just crappy garbage, 
not worth looking at or buying at any price.  I like that place.  
Some places the sales clerks would try to say it's ok or something.

Jim
From: alexank@chert.cs.orst.edu (Kelly Alexander)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Answering the door at 11PM, without a gun. . .
Date: 21 Nov 92 13:19:17 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Department, Oregon State University


In article <1992Nov19.222725.13396@chpc.org>, rboudrie@chpc.org (Rob Boudrie) writes:
|> # Assuming that a person does NOT possess a firearm, what it the best
|> # approach for dealing with a stranger at the door at 11PM?
|> 
|> car rolled out of the drieveway into the street".)  If I answered the
|> door gun-in-hand, the LEAST trouble I could expect is loss of the 
|> gun & license.  If I answered a late nite call unprotected, the worst
|> I could expect is violent death (p=very low, but not non-zero).

	I had and experience that suggests that you won't loose your gun
if you come to the door with it.
	About 2am I came home and as I was driving up the hill, a jeep
started following me with it's lights out.  I pulled into the driveway
and when he followed, I ran into the house and dialed 911 as I grabbed
the 1911A1 out of it's hiding place.
	While talking to the operator, I heard someone trying the door
out front and chambered a round.  The operator asked what that noise was
and I told her, so she told me that she would inform the officer that
I was armed.  When he came to the door (and called out that he was Medford
PD), I answered it with the gun in plain view.  He told me to stay inside 
and keep my gun handy. 	After he searched the grounds he said to keep 
everything locked up and call again if I saw anything else.
	The officer never made a fuss over the gun, nor did he seem to
mind an armed citizen.


---------------------------------------------------------------------
     Kelly Scott Alexander          alexank@research.cs.orst.edu
	    AI/Parallel Research Suns System Administrator
	      Oregon State University, Computer Science
---------------------------------------------------------------------
From: blaine@catt.ncsu.edu (Greyland Blaine Mull)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: WANTED:replies on carrying weapons
Date: 17 Nov 92 02:09:07 GMT
Article-I.D.: garfield.9211162347.AA24813


	I saw your post on rec.guns concerning carrying weapons.  I'm a
21 year old (mature) college student who, after talking to my parents,
am considering a handgun purchase before Bill and Hillary hit the Waffle
House (oops....I meant White House).  I know that specifics vary from
state to state, but could you email me the collection of replies that
you recieved.  Do you own a handgun presently? - If so what kind? -I'm
looking at Glocks (heard alot of good things about them).

	thanx in advance for your reply..
-grey

-- 
 Grey Mull	       +Disclamer:  I didn't say it,-+  Macintosh
 blaine@catt.ncsu.edu  |   You didn't see me say it, |       to
 gbmull@eos.ncsu.edu   +---You can't prove anything!-+      NeXT...
NC State CATT Program				Steve Jobs continues...
From: gwyn@smoke.brl.mil (Doug Gwyn)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Practice range
Date: 22 Nov 92 20:20:27 GMT
Organization: U.S. Army Ballistic Research Lab, APG MD.


In article <cf2zkpO00WDKA8IlgP@andrew.cmu.edu> jp45+@andrew.cmu.edu (Jim Thomas Park , Jr.) writes:
#What is the "optimum" range I should be firing at. I was told
#that most handgun exchanges are done at approx. 7.5-10 yards apart.

Most handguns, once the sights are properly adjusted, will hit near
the aim point (when properly handled) out to more than 25 yards,
so the distance isn't too important as such.  What is more important
is for you to be able to judge from the hits on the target just what
your current handling status is and what improvement is needed.  At
faster speeds you should have the target nearer in order for all hits
to be on the paper.  I generally practice moderate speeds at 10 yards
with groups averaging around 1" deviation from aim point, which seems
to me to be good enough for most self defense purposes.  Now I need
to build up my speed.
From: ems@michael.apple.com (E. Michael Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Scopes Hitting Eye/Forhead
Date: 20 Nov 92 22:33:17 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer Inc, Cupertino, CA

In article <9211180047.AA197167@nike.calpoly.edu> ehorne@zeus.calpoly.edu (Eric T Horne) writes:

#I was wondering if, in laymens terms, you could describe the proper
#way to mount a scope on a rifle. I never took into consideration 
#eye relief (ie, how do you calculate this?)

Um, you mostly just read it off of the specs. packed with the scope...
It is one of the key parameters you should look at when buying 
the scope.  Magnification (power), field of view, eye relief.

It can be 'estimated' by picking up the scope and looking through it.
Move the scope toward/away from your eye and stop at the middle of
the 'in focus' range.  That is the 'eye relief' available to you from
that scope.  If you find that is too close to your eye for your own
comfort, find another scope...

-- 

E. Michael Smith  ems@apple.COM

'Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it.  Boldness has
 genius, power and magic in it.'  -  Goethe

I am not responsible nor is anyone else.  Everything is disclaimed.
From: KEVIN@MSUS1.MSUS.EDU (Kevin Whyte)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Bad tactical position ( was Psychology in Defense)
Date: 20 Nov 92 13:46:44 GMT


17 shots and only three hits?!?  Is that typical?!?  The story is tragic but
what happened to the other 14 rounds?