From: exukjb@exu.ericsson.se (ken bell)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.theory,alt.politics.elections,alt.politics.marrou,alt.politics.bush,misc.education
Subject: Re: US Public Schools: Get Rid of All the Bureaucrats!
Date: 21 Aug 92 21:15:21 GMT
Organization: Ericsson Network Systems, Inc.

In article <1992Aug21.155031.20216@swvgs.vak12ed.edu> mamstein@swvgs.vak12ed.edu (Mike Amstein) writes:
>From: mamstein@swvgs.vak12ed.edu (Mike Amstein)
>Subject: Re: US Public Schools: Get Rid of All the Bureaucrats!
>Date: Fri, 21 Aug 92 15:50:31 GMT

>joec@fid.morgan.com  writes:
>> In article <l9050rINNm9m@spim.mips.com> mpolen@gelato.mips.com (Michael Polen) writes:
>> >In article <1992Aug17.202017.17578@fid.morgan.com>, joec@fid.morgan.com (Joe Collins) writes:
>> >|> >In article <1992Aug6.013932.29133@s1.gov> lip@s1.gov (Loren I. Petrich) writes:
>> >|> > My solution to the US public schools' problems:
>> >|> > Get rid of all the bureaucrats!
>> >|> I agree 100%
>> 
>> >|> US Public schools have FAR more administrators than private/independent
>> >|> schools. But US public schools do a much worse job of educating America's
>> >|> kids.
>> 
>> >|> We outspend the Japanese by 2-to-1 on money spent per student, yet their
>> >|> students are far more educated than ours.
>> >|> On an international basis, we rank last among 13 nations in math/science.
>> 
>> >|> Its time do do something - I support school choice.
>> >|> 
>> >Interesting.  The Japanese don't agree with you.
>> 
>> What makes you say that?
>> 
>> I obtained the above information from various sources including:
>> NY Times (Sept 91), US News and World Report (fall '91), Newsweek (various
>> issues), Wall Street Journal (various issues).
>> 
>> Regarding the Japanese, its been published that the AVERAGE Japanese
>> student would score in the 90% percentile on US Standardized tests, i.e.
>> their average student is scores better than 90% of our students.
>> 
>> The SAT board puts out annual reports showing how US students do,
>> organized in various ways. MY reading shows that good predictors
>> of student achievement include the following:
>>  1-Parental Education level
>>  2-Parental Involvement
>>  3-Asian descent
>>  4-Household income
>> 
>> Bad predictors include money spent on education, student/teacher ratio,
>>  # of Administrators, etc
>> 
>> If I recall correctly, Private schools (i.e. Catholic) send 85% of their
>> students onto College but do it with far less overhead. For example,
>> In Washington DC, there is one adminstrator for every 54 kids in their
>> public schools. In the Catholic schools in the same city, there is
>> one administrator for every 2500 kids. 
>> 
>> I think about 45-48% of public schools kids go onto College, nationwide.
>> 
>> The best schools are independent schools (i.e. neither public or religious).
>> They send close to 99% of their students onto College. 
>> 
>> Interestingly, public school teachers make significantly more (on average) 
>> than non-public schools teachers.
>> 
>> Again, I support school choice - only then will the public schools
>> feel the pressure to improve (from outside competition). And its only
>> fair - right now the wealthier folks have school choice since they can afford
>> to send their kids to tuition-based, nonpublic schools. What about the rest 
>> of Americans?
>> 
>> Joe Collins
>> joec@morgan.com
>> Usual disclaimers apply...
>> 
>> 
>What is the socio-economic levels of students attending private
>schools? I believe that you are talking about two diversely
>different populations of students. You need to also look at
>educational levels of the parents.


Could someone summarize this discussion about school choice, listing the 
arguments on both sides, please?  The thread seems to me to have covered 
much of the ground, but a good round summary might promote more clarity.  
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Kenny Bell                          *        Welcome to Mind Wars
Ericsson Network Systems, Inc       *        Abstract Arts BBS 386-7907
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