From: brian@quake.sylmar.ca.us (Brian K. Yoder)
Subject: Re: What A White Person Learned in College About AfAm Culture
Organization: Quake Public Access
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 06:47:17 GMT

In article <1992Dec31.173840.62373@cc.usu.edu> slzm9@cc.usu.edu writes:
>In article <1992Dec30.153217.11011@vax.oxford.ac.uk>, mcbean@vax.oxford.ac.uk writes:
>> In article <168C91469E.DRPORTER@SUVM.SYR.EDU>, DRPORTER@SUVM.SYR.EDU (Brad Porter) writes:
>>> In article <1992Dec18.045728.27773@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU>
>>> ndw2u@curry.edschool.Virginia.EDU (Nicole Danielle Woodard) writes:

>>> Really?  That's sincere, not sarcastic.  I don't live in the real world,
>>> I live in a town in NY with an African-America population of at most 10 out
>>> of 3000.  Yet even while I've probably only know 5 or 6 African-Americans
>>> personally, I don't think I have a deep-rooted hatred for any minority group.

>   You may not but it would be naive of you to assume everyone is like
>you. And if you have read anything at all you should have gotten
>a clue that outside your picturesque hamlet all is not well. But
>unless you are deaf, dumb and blind you must be aware that slavery
>was practiced for 400 years. Do you think such institution- and
>society-wide acceptance of such a practice leaves no mark on the
>ancestors of the slavemasters or the slaves? 

But that's not what he said.  He said that he had seen very little racism.
I must say that I have seen fairly little too.  That doesn't mean that 
either of us thinks it doesn't exist.  What it means is that blanket claims
that "America is a Racist" country or that all blacks are discriminated against
are quite suspect.

>>> At the same time, I'm not qualified to debate what the rest of society
>>> believes.  I guess I have a hard time believing there is an underlying
>>> prejudice against African-Americans throughout white society.  

>   Well it's time to wake up and face reality. In the U.S. there is
>a system of thoughts and practices among many races that does
>not treat African Americans as full partners in american society

OK, what are the components of this system?  First, there are organized
racist groups (the various KKK and nazi idiots) of whom there are very few
and I think that you would agree that 99% of whites hate those guys as 
much as you do.  Second, there are the "Archie Bunkers" of the world, who
are also pretty much looked down upon by everyone white or black.  There
are also some social organizations which don't welcome blacks (though they
are not explicitly "out to get them") such as white country clubs and the
like.  Let's see...I guess you could add the little old ladies who are
afraid of blacks.  There are also a few businessmen who still might refuse
to deal with blacks (though they keep it hidden and do so unofficially).
What else is left?  Is this the "system" you are talking about, or something
else?

>And that is putting it as mildly as I possibly can. Why do you
>suppose it is twice as hard for a black person to get a job as
>a white person? 

Twice as hard?  How do you conclude that?  For many kinds of jobs (say,
university professor jobs) it is exactly the opposite.

>Why do you suppose a black person makes a small
>proportion of a dollar for every dollar (does anyone out there
>know the current proportion of the dollar?) a white person makes for
>the same job and the same hours?

I don't know the number, but even if you had that number, how would you
distinguish between the part of the difference due to differing qualifications,
experience, and education as opposed to the part due to racism?

>   I'm not saying other groups don't have these problems. But
>it is ridiculous to believe there is no "underlying prejudice
>against African-Americans throughout white society."

I don't think that anyone here says that there is no racism.  My point is
that racism is no longer the kind of brick wall it once was.  Now it's
more of a speed bump...still something that ought to be eliminated, but
not the overriding factor in determining how far you can go.

>>> Prejudice is a personal, not societal matter isn't it?  

>   No. As far as I know Malcolm X was one of the first African
>Americans to state this publicly. 

If it's not a personal matter, how can it be changed?  I can change my own mind
and I can try to change the minds of other individuals, but what more is
possible?  If all the individuals stop being racists, racism would be gone, no?

>In his autobiography he discusses
>why individual white people may be moral people exhibiting
>little racial bias. But institutions in America and group behavior
>seems to elicit racist actions from even upstanding members of the
>white community. As I recall he did not delve deply into "why" this
>was occurring he merely observed that it did happen.

Like most of the things Malcolm said, I think this is just an excuse for 
his hatred of whites.  If I said "Individual blacks may be hard-working
and intelligent, but the social institutions of black society cause 
blacks to be stupid and lazy." you would object to the racist implications
would you not?

>>> My fear however, is that
>>> because of AA, I'm going to have an extremely difficult time finding a job -
>>> much more difficult than a woman or minority will.  

>   The fact of the matter is this just doesn't seem to be true. There
>are enough jobs out there that if you are reasonably easy to work with,
>get along with other people, do good work and can prove it on your
>resume or Curriculum Vitae then being a white male won't stop you
>from getting a job. Far from it, it may provide you with an inherent
>advantage - that is life today in racist America.

Face it.  When a white male applies for a job, many employers openly and in
print say that they will hire non-white males over white males if they can.
While it is true that they might hire a white male sometimes, knowing that 
there is a bias (and that opposing it exposes one to charges of racism)
makes many white males angry.  At least the anti-black racists have to hide
their policies, the anti-white biases are trumpeted as good!

>>> Don't get tripped up
>>> by this question:  Is is worse for an African-American to be prejudice
>>> against a white because his/her ancestors were slave-holders, or is it
>>> worse for a white to be prejudiced against an African-American because
>>> his/her ancestors were slaves?

>   Both are, in my opinion, morally incorrect. But ask yourself this question:
>If it is true that African Americans have suffered from 100 years of
>subtle discrimination in American education, society and politics since 
>the end of the civil war - is it wrong to give them an advantage in
>getting into universities, getting jobs, or providing economic infra-
>structure in their communites? 

In a word...Yes.  Racism is wrong, no matter who practices it.

I should add that nobody has experienced that for 100 years.  People are
individuals and ought to be treated according to individual attributes,
experience, and ability, not according to racial history.

--Brian