From: skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu (Skip Sauls)
Subject: DAN IS GETTING UPSET! (was Re: SKIP'S POINTS ARE *SILLY*! ;)Re: Oh my God! Help my friend not buy an IBM!)
Organization: University of Mississippi, Dept. of Computer Science
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 16:29:15 GMT

In article <1992Nov10.035827.27941@usl.edu> das9674@usl.edu (Stephenson Daniel A) writes:
>In article <1992Nov10.005021.13155@ra.msstate.edu> skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu (Skip Sauls) writes:
>>But Dan, do you really think that someone such as myself could just leave
>>this alone and not twist the argument around?  :-)  Hey, this is .advocacy
>>and nothing can be assumed, reasonable or otherwise.  :-)
>
>Naw....;)

For those of you not from the South, "Naw" is what folks like Dan and I sound
like when we say "No".  :-)

>>I teach 1-2-3, but I could care less if it was available for the Amiga.  I'm
>>sure that others will disagree, but it is my opinion that we don't need a 
>>lot of boring business types messing everything up.  Having that sort of user
>>could be as bad as (I forgot, I promised not to talk politics anymore :-))
>
>Are you PLEASED with the Amigas near-total obscurity?!  Skip, the world of 
>small computers revolves around businesses.  *You* may think they are boring,
>and *I* may think spreadsheets are boring, but it seems that a computer needs
>a GOOD one to simply sell.

Maybe it does in the US, but the Amiga has done quite well overseas without
having one available.  While I'd love to see the Amiga do well in the US,
I believe that the time for it being accepted by businesses has past.  C=
seems to have also accepted this reality and is no longer trying to position
the Amiga as an alternative for business.  If they can increase the popularity
of the Amiga as a video workstation, multimedia platform, etc., I'll be happy
enough.  Hell, Clones are so cheap that I will just buy one if I really need
one for business apps.

>So you'd prefer the Amiga to sell pathetically with KOOL D00Ds using them
>rather than have them sell well (!) with Boring People running productivity
>software on them?  It is the PC's huge market dominance that enables those
>'Incredibly Boring Machines' to have fantastic non-business software for it.
>There is, to my knowledge, NO Amiga fighter simulation comparable to 
>Falcon3.0. 

How well does Falcon 3.0 run on a monochrome XT or CGA/EGA 286?  I have an
older version of Falcon for the Amiga that runs great on both my A3000 and
on my old A1000.  The problem is that I really suck at most games and only
drag them out to show the machine off.  Anyway, like everyone says, if you
want a game machine, get a Clone.  :-)

>I know of nothing for the Amiga like Ultima Underworld.  Undoubtedly, some 
>higher end Amigas could *do* these two 'games', but due to the 'KOOL D00Ds 
>computing in obscurity' attitude you and Microsoft/Lotus/etc take you cannot
>get them! (Falcon3.0, UU)

You are arguing with the wrong person about games.  I seem to have dulled
my reflexes from either getting old or drinking too much beer and haven't 
found and action game that I could play in quite some time.  I'd rather 
have a few of the types of games that I had on my Apple ][, at least I
could play those.  :-)

>>Well, they say that ignorance is bliss.  :-)  Seriously, check out Scala MM,
>>AmigaVision, CanDo, and others, there is plenty of software available now
>>and more on the way.  As for CDTV, I never said that I thought much of it,
>>did I?  In fact, I don't see it doing well unless Commodore beefs it up 
>>with the AGA chipset and some sort of FMV.
>
>Hmm.  That is my PC-ness showing through.  To most people, Multimedia=CDROM.
>I do  not know of ANY CDROM multimedia software for the Amiga.

There are plenty of CDTV titles.  :-)  

>Personally, I do not see them inherit benefits of this so called 'Multimedia'
>standard.  I think it has been pretty hyped up.  I would think of it more
>as 'oohh, a CDROM with an interactive encyclopedia with digitized sound samples'.

Most folks probably won't benefit from "MultiMedia" for some time, but when
companies like Apple and IBM hype it up, the lemmings will follow.  If you
listen to Apple, QuickTime is going to change the world.  But after you see
how positively silly the jerky little animations are you realize that it is
nothing more than marketing hype.

>In other words, Mutlimedia, IMNSHO != good presentation software.  This show
>how C= is outta touch with what 'multimedia' is to most people.  When they 
>know enough about multimedia to do "multimedia things", they won't consider 
>an Amiga.  MAYBE if it used a CD a lot....otherwise I just see them going and
>getting a PC.

Hell, real "MultiMedia" should involve _multiple_ _media_, not just computer
media.  No stock computer is really multimedia capable, even Amigas and the
silly MPC machines.  When a computer can handle full-motion video in, CD 
quality audio in, real-time 3D graphics genlocked on top of the video and 
output to either NTSC/PAL or RGBA, full audio mixing and output, etc. with
no slowdown and complete seamlessness, it may be a "MultiMedia" computer.
The current crop of Amigas, Clones, Macs, MPCs, CDTVs, CD-Is, and that stupid
Tandy thing are not really capable of true "MultiMedia".

>>If you are referring to those VideoBlasters and other things, get a clue.
>>The quality on those things is terrible and the software is a hack at best.
>
>Actually, Skip, I have an abundance of 'clues'.  Would you like one of mine?
>You are sorely lacking....
>
>(wow, that was a *good* shot! ;)  )

It might have been if I were as thin-skinned as some of the wimps who frequent
this group, but I'm not.  :-)

>Anyway, I am referring to the 'WinTV' and 'PS/2 TV' things.  I think the PS/2
>thing costs more.  I don't think they have the TV as a the desktop background,
>but can have it fullscreen and in a windows.  The window (in Windows and OS/2)
>isn't resizeable...darn. ;)  And yes, the display does look a bit frotched in
>the windowed display, but that's what you expect resizing the picture down to 
>320X200 or somesuch teeny size.

Actually, I wouldn't mind having one of these things on my Amiga.  It would
sure make it easier to catch the Rush Limbaugh show when I'm here working 
late.  :-)

>>That's the problem, the SBPro is something of a standard and all software
>>will have to support it.  It sucks and the Developer's Kit sucks even more.
>
>The only programming I do is in FORTRAN - and that is because THEY MAKE ME.

Oh, now we know why you are so crazy.  :-)

>I really don't think programming is so hot, and do not give a darn how lousy
>the SBDK is - just as long as it is profitable for developers to use it anyway
>and give me games with cool sound <insert Falcon3.0's 'Copy waypoint bypass' 
>and 'I've gone Winchester'.

That's the problem, the darn thing is such a piece of junk that a lot of 
time is wasted fighting it.  It must have been coded by an EE or somesuch
as the style and naming conventions are really pathetic.  :-)

>>Well, the A400 is not out yet, but I'd bet that it will be cheaper than the
>>486.  :-)
>
>A400?  What is that?  Ohh!  oh!! Ooops,  I hate making typos! :-)
 
Sorry, I know it is bad netiquette (or whatever that bastardized word is)
to correct spelling, but it makes for good rumor fodder.  :-)

>>Seriously, RAM suddenly became an issue when the (...) decided to place a
>>tariff on the chips a couple of weeks ago.  

What, no comment about the (...) who are screwing the public?  :-)

>>68EC020 @ 14.32MHz, 4x bandwith of A3000, same video specs as A4000,
>>rumored price less than $1000.
>
>By the Way, if it only cost $10 or so more to use a ful 68020 WITH MMU...
>why not?  I don't see why you ought to cripple yourself now when in the future
>you might want VM.  But the big question remains....DOES IT COME WITH A HARD
>DRIVE AND MONITOR for <$1000?!

Well, even the real 020 doesn't have an MMU and the cost is important.  A
$10 part might jack the retail price up an extra $30 or so.  As for VM, if
Windows and the Mac are any indication of PC-type VM, the Amiga doesn't
need it.

The prices are all still rumors, but one source says that the A1200 with
2M Chip and a floppy will be $599 and with a 40M HD will be $799.  Add a
cheap SVGA monitor and it would all be less than $1000.

>Also, azre you _sure_ it isn't 14.33 ot 14.31 Mhz that the 68EC020 runs
>at? :-)

Actually, I'm not sure at all.  I've seen so many different numbers for the
MHz of the Amiga that I now think it must be variable.  :-)

>>Virtual Reality apps, morphing packages out the yin-yang, etc.
>
>These aren't available for PCs?  I have seem VR apps.  And aren't we being a 
>bit selective here in what applications types we choose?  Gahh, what?! no
>cutting edge word processors with Unlimited Undo?! :-)

Hey, you said "advocate to me", not "tell me the truth".  :-)

As for word processors, who cares?  I use emacs for everything.  :-)

>>Nah, then it would be no better than a PC!  :-)
>
>Oh yeah, like an Amigan who once tried to convince me that his Amiga had a 
>good resale value for what he paid for it..  ha!  NO SHIT, you pay shitloads 
>for an Amiga3000 X years ago...it is a GOOD thing you can try to recoup some 
>of the initial expenses.

No, the Amiga does not have good resale value.  My A1000 was ~$1300 new, but
was only worth ~$200 in 1990 and was not even worth trying to sell.  I paid
~$2400 for an A3000 in 1991, but would be surprised to get half that for it
now.  In a year or so I'll probably be in the market for a new machine and
my A4000 will probably have a similar value.  Do I care?  Not really, I've
found that you just have to live with immediate obsolescence and poor resale
value with computers.  Sort of like cars.

>>It does sell for $2795 and is at least equivalent to a 486-50DX2 with MCA
>>or EISA, LocalBus coprocessed SVGA, a SoundBlaster, and OS/2.
>
>Skip, are you aware of the datarates in the EISA? MCA? LOCALBUS?  Man, 
>Localbus is wicked fast.  And one thing your A4000 cannot do out of the box: 

Duh, the Amiga has had "localbus" video all along.  Leave it to the Clone
makers to jump on the bandwagon and then pretend like they are the leaders.

As for data rates, are you aware of how fast Zorro III is?  Alot faster and
more elegant than the EISA kludge and faster than the MCA that IBM uses in
their PS/2s.  If Dave Haynie is reading this, he'll set you straight.  :-)

>run Windows.  (Ohh, I *knew* that would get you! ;)  )

Give me a break.  Windows is crap and I don't even use it on the whoop-ass
Clone on my desk at work.  Why would I want to cripple the Amiga with a
piece of junk program launcher sitting on top of a non-OS?

>Dan Stephenson                                                 das9674@usl.edu  
>"There once was a Lady from Hyde/who ate some bad apples and died/but while we
>lamented/the apples fermented/making cider inside her inside!" 
>                        -Member of the Court, Texas Renaissance Festival  


Skip Sauls, Amiga Advocate & PC Basher
skip@tacky.cs.olemiss.edu


Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.advocacy