HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: petsch@sylt.informatik.uni-kl.de (Petsch Wolfram - PA Meybrink)
Subject: Re: Neugermanischer Tribalismus, was Re: A-4/V-2 Jahrestag
Organization: University of Kaiserslautern, W-Germany
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1992 14:00:35 GMT

In article <5UV7GEU@netmbx.netmbx.de> sanio@netmbx.netmbx.de (Erhard Sanio) writes:
>In article <1992Oct12.161409.27606@uklirb.informatik.uni-kl.de> petsch@amrum.informatik.uni-kl.de (Petsch Wolfram - PA Meybrink) writes:
>>In article <3946@sapwdf.UUCP> sanio@sapwdf.UUCP (Dr Erhard Sanio) writes:
>
>..
>>>tippe da eher auf neugermanischen Tribalismus.
>
>>Was zum Teufel bedeutet das?????
>
>Ich antworte nur noch darauf. Bezueglich des Bombenkriegs selbst hat Till
>Poser Korrekturen und Praezisierungen angebracht, denen ich ausser Zustimmung
>nichts hinzufuegen kann und will.
>Den Scherz mit den Stammesriten und -prahlereien hat Lech Borkowski vor 
>laengerem mal aufgebracht, ich fand das ein charmantes Understatement
>von etwas, was ich ansonsten nur mit Begriffen wie Chauvinismus, nationa-
>listischem Dumpfsinn oder dergleichen eher polarisierend und ausgrenzend
>qualifizieren koennte. Ich habe die etwas subtilere Ebene aus taktischen
>und grundsaetzlichen Erwaegungen vorgezogen.
Das ist nur warme Luft aber keine Beantwortung der Frage!! Also sehe
ich lieber selber nach:

Tribalismus [von engl. tribe], seit etwa 1960 Bezeichnung fuer
stammesgebundene Politik in afrikanischen Staaten. Tribalismus tritt
in der Form partikularistischer Regionalpoilitk oder in der Bevorzugung
ethnischer Gruppen beim Aufbau des Staates in Erscheinung. Der
Tribalismus erfaehrt meist eine negative Bewertung: Hauptgefahr fuer
den Zusammenhalt von Staat und Nation.
<P.C.Lloyd: Africa in social change 1967; I.L.Markovitz: African
politics and society London 1970>
Quelle: Brockhaus

So beantwortet man eine Frage nach einem Fremdwort!

Daraus folgt : neugermanischer Tribalismus ?????
=> deutsche Afrikapolitik??
=> Bayern verlangt die Unabhaengigkeit und Spaltung Deutschlands??
=> Es gibt nur noch Pfaelzer in der Regierung??
=> ...



-- 
petsch@sylt.informatik.uni-kl.de (Wolfram Petsch)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
From: godfrey@sscvx1.ssc.gov (LAURENCE GODFREY)
Subject: From Soc.culture.thai - Re: On salary of S&T Manpower
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.4-b1  
Organization: Superconducting Super Collider Laboratory
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 01:09:00 GMT

In article <13OCT199212223544@sscvx1.ssc.gov>, godfrey@sscvx1.ssc.gov (LAURENCE GODFREY) writes...
>In article <1992Oct13.164252.14940@usl.edu>, pxu8785@usl.edu (Uthayopas Putchong)      writes...
>>>
>>>-----
>>Today, government try to push the university to increase the supply of
>>engineer due to the current shortage. This lead to a lot of problem
>> 
>>	1. Due to limited resources and instructor , you can not guarantee
>>the quality of engineer from government university any more.
>>	2. Once they increase the supply when it excessive, it hard to
>>cut down the change. Government organiztion structure is very slow in
>>respond to changing situation.
>> 
>>I think that the government should not increase a lot of supply. Their function
>>is to produce the qualified engineering as a reference of the quality of
>>Thai engineer. And another important thing is to improve the quality of newly
>>graduated student. Left the private engineer school produce another engineer,
>>but apply a tighter control to the quality seem to be the best way to me.
>>I do agree with Arjarn Schitt that the best way is to increase demand and job
>>and growth of industry.
>> 
>>>Montree Suntichaikul
>>>
>>>suntich@ee.msu.edu
>> 
>>Putchong Uthayopas
>> 
>> 
>This sort of problem is by no means confined to thailand.  In my own country,
>the appalling Conservative government was been systematically undermining the
>university education system (schools too) since it came to power in 1980.
>They too identified areas in which they would like to have more graduates,
>and tried to get them on the cheap by lowering the standards and cutting
>the resources of the universities (in real terms) with the result that
>the British degree itself has been seriouysly eroded in value.  recently,
>they chose to address the problem of too few graduates by allowing most
>of the colleges which used to be low-standard technical colleges, to call
>themselves universities.  The result is that these establishments have
>the appearance of universities without the quality, but will soon be
>pouring large numbers of under-qualified graduates onto the job markets.
> 
>While I hesitate to say anything complimentary about Germany, it is worth
>pointing out here that the word "engineer" is actually a legally protected
>word there, and no-one can call him/herself an engineer unless he holds
>a degree specificaly approved by the ONE institute in Germany that 
>oversees the quality of engineers.  This is the same as is done in the
>UK for medical doctors, and is clearly an excellent idea.  It could not
>now be done in the UK for engineers, as it would conflict with government
>policy.
> 
>Laurence
>
From: schrod@iti.informatik.th-darmstadt.de (Joachim Schrod)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: at issue: bozos on the loose
Date: 15 Oct 92 17:52:08 GMT
Organization: TU Darmstadt

In article <1992Oct14.175737.28780@javelin.sim.es.com>, biesel@javelin.sim.es.com (Heiner Biesel) writes:
> werner@cs.utexas.edu (Werner Uhrig) writes:
> 
> ...[many deletions throughout]...
> 
> Commentary unnecessary.
> 
> Regards,
>        H. Biesel

Dieser Artikel bestand -- ausser dem von mir geloeschten
Ursprungs-Artikel von Werner -- wirklich nur aus den obigen 4 Zeilen.
Sonst geht's noch gut, oder?

Danke, H. Biesel, aber wir sind selber in der Lage zu lesen. Sie
muessen uns nicht den Artikel noch einmal schicken. Vielleicht sollten
Sie einmal ueberlegen, dass es auch einige Personen gibt, die dafuer
BEZAHLEN muessen.

--
Joachim
Xref: sparky soc.culture.german:7182 de.soc.recht:1035
From: lkv@mania.hotb.sub.org (Lutz Vieweg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,de.soc.recht
Subject: Re: Willy Brandts Tod
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1992 10:17:43 GMT
Organization: The Funny Farm
X-Newsreader: Arn V1.00 alpha rel3

In article <ldbg9rINN9o4@exodus.Eng.Sun.COM>, Eric Silber writes:

>  Ein guter Mensch ist hingegangen.

Soso, jener Herbert Frahm, der sich spaeter aus offensichtlichen Gruenden
spaeter in "Willy Brandt" umnannte, und der in seinem Werk
"Verbrecher und andere Deutsche" seine Landsleute uebel verunglimpfte,
den nennst Du einen "guten Menschen".

Ich jedenfalls kann nur betrauern, das der Mann nicht schon viel
frueher ins Gras gebissen hat.

cu, Lutz Vieweg
From: flegel@jeeves.ucsd.edu (Willy Flegel)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Willy Brandt tot
Date: 13 Oct 92 06:44:42 GMT
Organization: University of California, San Diego

Carl wrote recently:
| {stuff deleted} I recall his spontaneous fall on the knees, when
| he was visiting a former concentration camp in Poland. This shows
| feelings and format I still wait to see from ANY of the politicians
| around in G.
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^
Hasn't it been in the Warschauer Ghetto which cannot formally be
called a concentration camp?
Besides that, you were right. OK. Here I could agree with you.
Then, suddenly a strange idea occurred to me which I'd like
to phrase in a question:

Don't we still wait to see these feelings and format from
ANY of the politicians around G?
                       ^^^^^^^^

Taking into consideration that I am boring a couple of
netlanders I add the information that "Willy Brandt" was
a pseudonym adopted by him well before becoming involved
in politics. His true name was Herbert Frahm (here the absence
of an encyclopedia and the presence of my rapidly failing
memory is felt in a dramatic and painful way). Still, I
recall that there was a "second" first name, like Werner.
Is there a kind soul who is willing to fill in the missing
information or correcting my mistakes?

Those German speaking fellow netters will immediately
understand and all the other people in this group may
safely believe my words, that once in a while one may
consider to change one's name. However, I am not aware
of the reasons which caused Willy Brandt to adopt this
particular pseudonym. Is there an account in his memoirs? 


Willy ist tot, es lebe Willy  ... well, oder so aehnlich.
I hope somebody on the net enjoyed the hidden irony in this
posting ...

Willy A Flegel
University of California, San Diego              
La Jolla, CA 92093-0116                           waf@ucsd.edu
 ____________________________________________________________
|                                                            |
|                  Intentionally left blank                  |
|____________________________________________________________|

Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
From: nitsche@carson.u.washington.edu (Gregor Nitsche)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Violence update 13.10.92
Date: 13 Oct 92 19:49:23 GMT
Article-I.D.: u.1992Oct13.194923.19340
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

In article <serb.36@polisci.umn.edu> serb@polisci.umn.edu (Scott Erb) writes:
>In article <1992Oct13.163014.7259@u.washington.edu> nitsche@carson.u.washington.edu (Gregor Nitsche) writes:
>
>>In article <IBW7MJJ@math.fu-berlin.de> dww@inf.fu-berlin.de writes:
> 
>>>parties concerned - SPD, FDP, PDS and Green - have protested that this
>>>denunciation is uncalled for.
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>I thought denunciation only applied to crimes.  Is it a crime to be against
>>a change in the constitution? 
>
>Denunciation or the verb "to denounce" can be used a number of ways, not 
>just with serious crimes.  But really, I think that this could be an 
>unnecessary linguistic point.  I assume that the two posters are not native 
>English speakers, though I may be wrong on the second since he writes from u.
>washington.  For a German trying to find the right word, the nuances of the 
>language might cause it to have a different connotation than it usually has 
>in English.  Also, English words are more loosely defined, for the most 
>part.  That was clear to me when I gave a paper in Germany and found that in 
>German words have a more precise definition.  Therefore, I think denounce 
>probably simply means to sharply criticize -- something consistent with 
>democracy.  The word condemn can also be used, even though it is often used 
>in association with violent crimes.

Oops, you're right. I should have known that ...  You are also right with
your guess that I am not a native English speaker.  When I read denuncia-
tion, I thought immediately of the German word "Denunziation" which is
usually used in connection with crimes (or rather with what is considered
a crime by the respective authorities); the word itself has a negative
connotation and is mostly used in connection with non-democratic regimes.
However, I suppose that in this case, "denunciation" was merely the trans-
lation of the German word, anyway.

Gregor Nitsche
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Deutsch Comics ? (Commic book)
From: ecmtwhk@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz (Thomas Koenig)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 22:40:43 GMT
Organization: University of Auckland, New Zealand.

werner@cs.utexas.edu (Werner Uhrig) writes:

>	hey, you missed Nick Knatterton (I wonder if those are still
>	in my mother's attic, 20 years after my departure... ;-)

>	I don't even recall who wrote those....  but, yep, those are
>	"understandable/readable" German, alright.... (in contrast to
>	Broesel's "Werner", which requires a well-founded knowledge of
>	German, the language AND culture)

The author was Manfred Schmid (not sure about the spelling there).
Notice that these cartoons contain the highest concentration of bad
jokes and puns in German per square metre I've seen so far; I love it.
They were done in the late fifties/early sixties, which shows in some
allusions to events of that era.

Quotation (from memory): "Nick bewahrt alle seine Steuerbescheide in einer
voellig unnoetigen Ruestung auf. Welch' tiefer Sinn liegt darin!"
-- 
Thomas Koenig, ecmtwhk@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz, ib09@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de
The joy of engineering is to find a straight line on a double logarithmic
diagram.
From: chem3u@elroy.uh.edu (Kadish, Karl M.)
Subject: Re: Deutsche Unis
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: University of Houston
Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1992 23:43:00 GMT

In article <1992Oct14.160048.28393@pasteur.Berkeley.EDU>, lorenzen@cory.Berkeley.EDU (Lorenzen Peter Jonathan ) writes...
>Greetings,
> 
>I am looking for any information on where to find ftp sites in which one may
>obtain the addresses of principle German Universities.  My brother is a German
>student at the University of California at Santa Barbara (which, unfortunately,
>does not have an rn server) and is interested in studying in Germany.  Thanks
>in advance for any information.
> 
>	Tschuess!
> 
>Peter Lorenzen
> 
>My brother: Chris Lorenzen
>	    udeutsch@mcl.ucsb.edu
> 
> 
>-- 
>lorenzen@berkeley.edu
> 
>Nullum Gratuitum Prandium


Hi ,I am looking for addresses too.  I am a french graduate student and I 
want to go back to Germany to finish my Ph.D. (Doktorarbeit) in chemistry.
I will appreciate any help which will lead to contact to chemistry professors
in analytical/physical chemistry.
In advance thanks.

	Benoit SOUCAZE-GUILLOUS

ps: can you send answer home, please?

chem3u@jetson.uh.edu

> 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
From: rschoen@laborixsai.mathematik.uni-ulm.de (Reinhard Schoen)
Subject: Re: western
Reply-To: rschoen@laborixsai.mathematik.uni-ulm.de (Reinhard Schoen)
Organization: University of Ulm, SAI, Germany
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 92 22:04:59 GMT

In article <11OCT92.18013087@skyfox.usask.ca>, tittelbach@skyfox.usask.ca writes:
|> 
|> Einen wunderscho"nen Guten Morgen! Kann mir von Euch vielleicht jemand sagen,
|> wie jener beru"hmte Western "Spiel mir das Lied vom Tod" auf englisch heisst?
|> Er scheint hier, nur nebenbei, nicht ganz so beru"hmt zu sei, bisher konnte
|> mit meiner Beschreibung na"mlich keiner so richtig was anfangen.
|> Wie auch immer, ich wa"re dankbar fu"r Tips.
|> Gruss, Dietrich.

   Once upon a time in the West

nicht zu verwechseln mit

   Once upon a time in America

(beides von Sergio Leone)
From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Subject: HELP: Translating a word in German
Organization: Brown University Department of Computer Science
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 16:58:58 GMT

Hi everybody,

I would be grateful if someone tells me what is the exact meaning
of the initials "bzw.". Does it mean "i.e." or can it mean "or",
"additionaly", etc.

I apologize if the question is too vauge... please e-mail answers.

Thanks,

-Danny Keren.
From: kim@i5160e.nrl.navy.mil (Ellis Kim)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: German students in the USA?
Date: 7 Oct 92 15:07:56 GMT
Organization: US Naval Research Laboratory, Acoustics Division

Thanks to all those who responded to my question about student visa in
for germans in the states!  Pretty nice netters in this newsgroup.  I
was inundated with e-mail.  If there is any interest, i'll compile the
answers and post them in the group sometime. Thanks again for all the 
help everybody!



-- 

-- Ellis   kim@v5160.nrl.navy.mil
   "First things first. But not necessarily in that order." - Dr. Who
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.politics.ec,alt.politics.europe.misc
From: serb@polisci.umn.edu (Scott Erb)
Subject: Re: ZDF in Copenhagen & The end of democracy
Summary: The Danish govt.s solutions to the Maastricht no-vote
Keywords: Tv-stations ought to give correct reports about EC-events
Organization: Department of Political Science, University of Minnesota
Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1992 22:33:02 GMT

In article <1992Oct10.173656.29884@daimi.aau.dk> simonl@daimi.aau.dk (Simon Laub) writes:

>ZDF in Copenhagen & the end of democracy.

>  October 9th was according to the german TV-station ZDF
>another great day in the history of the EC.
>  In Copenhagen the danish government published a plan
>for getting Denmark 'on board the EC again' and
>'starting the EC-train again'.

>  One compromize had it , that Denmark should sign
>the Maastricht treaty and having some extra protocols 
>dealing with democracy etc. According to ZDF this
>was a great solution.

>  That the danish government (& parliament ) faced a direct
>no to the treaty is more or less camouflaged in the
>ZDF favoured construction. Which to me and a lot of
>fellow danes is simply outrageous. To follow this
>plan might bring the danish govt. sympathy from ZDF ,
>but will certainly create anger among large parts
>of danish society.

>  Nevertheless ZDF declares it a victory for democracy in
>Europe ( many would call it the opposite ).
>  That the german govt. goes against its own people
>(37 % no , 31 % yes ) , followed by the british
>govt. (66 % against) , the danish govt. (50.7 % against )
>and other countries with large minorities against . -- Is somehow
>not mentioned in this ZDF newsupdate .

Democracy is, of course, not absolute mass rule.  People choose governments 
who sometimes have to implement things that a majority disagreement.  That's 
representative democracy.  I agree that Maastricht went too fast, and did 
not consult the people, and thus I think it's good that things will slow 
down.  This is all part of a process to make sure that a unified Europe is 
more federal and less centralized.


>  ZDF continues with a history 
of the strong castle walls>of Maastricht , that stands the test of time , and
>Maastrichts successful soccerteam.
>  That people around europe are against Brussels bureaucracy,
>using cohesion funds to send billions of ECU down
>to a black mafia hole on Sicily and the utter lack
>of democracy in the EC is as usual nullified.

You're raving.

>  And to top it all . Today the danes faced the fact ,
>that the govt. will insist on yet another EC-referendum
>(Certainly going to make things hum in Denmark).
>  This would be the 4 th EC-Referendum in Denmark (2 yes, 1 no )
>( 3 in Ireland , 1 in France , zip-nothing elsewhere).
>  A fact that is bound to raise questions like :
>'Why yet another referendum , why should we care about the
>details of democracy , while other countries doesnt discuss
>it , doesnt hold referendums about it and doesnt care
>about upholding the deals anyway (e.g. Italy )' .

Again, referendums and representative democracy aren't necessarily the same, 
and people can debate which is better.  If you don't like your government, 
vote it out!!!


Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
From: weberwu@inf.fu-berlin.de (Debora Weber-Wulff)
Subject: Violence update 16.10.92
Reply-To: dww@inf.fu-berlin.de
Organization: Free University of Berlin
Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1992 14:07:21 GMT

No direct reports of violence, but a lot of related news.

The Bundestag voted yesterday (CDU/CSU/FDP yes, Green/PDS no, SPD abstained)
that chapter 16 (the one regulating asylum) in the constitution needs to 
be changed.

The leader of the DNP party, Dienel, was released from prison yesterday. He
had been arrested on charges of "Volksverhetzung", but it has been
determined that there is no reason to keep him in jail until the trial -
no danger of him leaving the country or trying to cover up his deeds.

Refugee's payments from the social offices are to be reduced to 75% of
the current amount. That is 381 instead of 508 DM for the head of
a family. Most of that goes for paying for the shelter and food: 76 DM a
month is to remain as pocket money. That's about 2,50 a day. A newspaper
costs about a mark, the movies start at 6 DM on cheap night.

Three men have been arrested in connection with the explosion at the
refugee shelter in Kolbenmoor.

The Berlin Abgeordnetenhaus debated about rightist extremists yesterday.
They could not, however, decide to join a call for a nationwide
demonstration on Nov. 7, because they refuse to sign anything the PDS
signs, on the grounds that two Stasi-persons are PDS members of
parliament.

Frankfurt/Main: The CDU-Landrat Johann Riebel gave a press conference
yesterday, in which he stated that the (German) wives of refugees are
"all welfare recipients or drug addicts", and added that the marriages
are all "Scheinehen", marriages that exist on paper only. Mr. Riebel
is responsible, among other things, for the refugee shelters in his
area. The chief of the Multicultural Affairs office in Frankfurt has
requested that the district attorney's office initiate proceedings
to determine if this is a punishable offence.      

Three apprentices were sentenced to between 6 and 9 months on parole for
their role in defacing a Jewish monument. A fourth youth, who was on
parole for another crime at the time, is to spend a year in prison.

Kiel: The Ministry of the Interior has suspended a police officer for    
beating up a foreigner that he had arrested.

Hannoversche Minden: A company has written a letter to the local
authorities threatening to move the company and the jobs if a central
refugee office is located in the town. Seems the homes of the managers
of the company are right next to the casern in which the office is to
be located, and they are worried that their properties will devalue.

A cartoon in the taz: politicians standing around a coffin, looking
grave and one saying "Yes, there must be a right to asylum -- in 
Norway or in Sweden, but not in Germany!"
 
-- 
Debora Weber-Wulff                       dww@inf.fu-berlin.de
Institut fuer Informatik                 +49 30 89691 124
Nestorstr. 8-9                           (INCLUDE "standard.disclaimer")
D-W-1000 Berlin 31                       (PRINTN (WITTY-MESSAGE TODAY))
From: sanio@sapwdf.UUCP (Dr Erhard Sanio)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Neugermanischer Tribalismus, was Re: A-4/V-2 Jahrestag
Date: 14 Oct 92 09:34:47 GMT
Reply-To: sanio@sapwdf.UUCP (Dr Erhard Sanio)
Organization: S.A.P. AG  Walldorf, Germany

In article <1992Oct13.140035.4191@uklirb.informatik.uni-kl.de> petsch@sylt.informatik.uni-kl.de (Petsch Wolfram - PA Meybrink) writes:

es>>tippe da eher auf neugermanischen Tribalismus.

wp>Was zum Teufel bedeutet das?????
..
>Das ist nur warme Luft aber keine Beantwortung der Frage!! Also sehe
>ich lieber selber nach:
..

>So beantwortet man eine Frage nach einem Fremdwort!

Ach, tut man?

Da man aus naheliegenden Gruenden (oder muss ich auch noch erklaeren, wieso)
  davon ausgehen kann, dass die Benutzer dieses Mediums des Lesens maechtig
  sind,
da man ferner davon ausgehen kann, dass ein Fremdwoerterlexikon schneller
  zugreifbar ist als der durchschnittliche Frage-Antwort-Zyklus im Usenet
  (ein bis mehrere Tage) dauert,
da ich ohnehin die Bedeutung des Wortes Tribalismus als bekannt vorausgesetzt
  habe,
war ich davon ausgegangen, dass die Semantik der Metapher, nicht die
Wortbedeutung in Frage stand. Diese Ueberforderung Deiner geistigen 
Kapazitaet bitte ich zu entschuldigen.

>Daraus folgt : neugermanischer Tribalismus ?????
>=> deutsche Afrikapolitik??
>=> Bayern verlangt die Unabhaengigkeit und Spaltung Deutschlands??
>=> Es gibt nur noch Pfaelzer in der Regierung??
>=> ...

Einfach scharf nachdenken, Du kommst noch drauf. Vielleicht finden sich
sich ein paar freundliche Sonderpaedagogen, die Dir die Pointe per email
an:
- petsch@sylt.informatik.uni-kl.de (Wolfram Petsch)
erklaeren. Viel Glueck!

>petsch@sylt.informatik.uni-kl.de (Wolfram Petsch)

regards, es
From: chuck@ztivax.UUCP (Charles Watland)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
Subject: Was ist Apathie?
Date: 15 Oct 92 07:49:39 GMT
Organization: Siemens AG, Munich, W-Germany

Was ist Apathie?
Weiss ich nicht
und interessiert 
mich auch nicht.

Keiner ist unnuetzt, er
kann immer noch als
schlechtes Beispiel dienen.

Ordnung is 
das halbe Leben.
Ich lebe in der
anderen Haelfte

Muede und satt
Wie schoen ist datt?

Stell dir vor, jemand
sagt was, und ein enderer
hoerte zu!


Hat jemand hinzuzufuegen?

Chuck
-- 
Charles Watland
email: chuck@ztivax.zfe.siemens.de
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german