From: Will Steeves <goid@zooid.guild.org>
Subject: Choice For Men != Not Wanting Children (was: Pre-Sex Contract)
Note: I have removed ba.singles. Future posters may wish to remove soc.singles.
X-To: JACQUELYN ALDRIDGE
Organization: The Zoo of Ids
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 01:15:00 GMT

aldridge@netcom.com (Jacquelyn Aldridge) writes...
>Will Steeves <goid@zooid.guild.org> writes:
>>It's not that simple, Lana.  *David* may not want children (perhaps never),
>>but a vasectomy might be a bit TOO extreme, especially if he should decide in
>>the future that he wants to have a family.

>        If you have any good ideas about male birth control best publish.
>David's complaint is that he doesn't want to have children and he is
>concerned about what happens if he gets a woman pregnant.

Indeed, he *should* be.

>        There are no guarantees in birth control but he can darn well act
>in ways that are close to guaranteeing that he won't engender a child. Men
>who are very sure they don't want children don't take chances.

Neither do *women* who don't want children.  What's your point?  *My* point,
is that if and when an accident *does* happen, if he wants the child and she
doesn't, then too bad for him, because she *has* a way out, or if she wants
the child but he doesn't, then too bad for him again, because he is *forced*
to be a parent.  Do you consider this fair?


>        Women's freedom is bought at a price. The back up to birth control
         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>is abortion or birth.

Yes, but men have *no* reproductive freedom, at *any* price, after pregnancy
begins.  The backup to birth control is often abortion or forced fatherhood,
for many men.

>And in this benighted society abortion is a
>physically invasive procedure, not a pill. Very profitable for the mostly
>male population of doctors.

Excuse me, but there *are* many supporters of RU-486 who are are men, as
there are many opponents who are women (even "pro-choice" women!).  Are
you attempting to posit that male doctors are more concerned with money
than with good medicine?  Please, before tossing any misandry at us, do
realise that *everyone's* principles tend to take a bit of beating when
the money isn't coming in...men's *and* women's.  I am not saying that
this is right, but I *am* saying that it is totally offensive and sexist
for you to be saying that only men are capable of this!   (Mind you, I am
not yet convinced that RU-486 will at all enhance the "quality of medicine" ;
even many "pro-choice" advocates will agree with me on this one).

>Instead of a late and heavy period a woman has
>to find the resources to gain an abortion, knowing that the fetus is
>growing and developing every day. Miscarriages are mourned, how different
>is it to have an abortion? Men don't have the grief.
                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Excuse me, but WE DO, actually.  And for that matter, *I* do, so please
do not attempt to tell me what men can and cannot feel, thank you.

>If a man doesn't want a child it is still for him an intellectual consideration

As it is for many *women* who don't want the child.  Believe me, *I* know.
When it happened to me, the woman never even said the word "child".  She
*often* said words like "thing" and "cancer," but I never recall hearing
"child".  So don't try to sell me this line that only women care about "their
growing foetuses," and that it is only *men* who choose to use denial.

>Most women can
>envision in detail the stage of development of a fetus. Has it hands and
>feet, lost it's tail yet, have a face.

Believe me, so did I.  And at eight weeks, they can also feel pain, as I
have heard.  Believe me, I will *never* forget this fact...


>        So, give it a break. The guy wants a contract that states that he
                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>has a choice over what a women does if she gets pregnant.
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

No, he wants the choice of what HE does if she gets pregnant.  He *isn't*
demanding the right to force a woman to terminate a possible pregnancy, or
to force her to carry it ; he wants the freedom to control HIS OWN life, to
not be forced to raise children whom he doesn't want.  This is also your
goal for women, is it not?  Should men not also have this right?


>Why should he have the right. He can control his own destiny,

Apparently not...

---
Will Steeves, goid@zooid.guild.org                      "Neil Hull is GOiD"
ZOOiD BBS, Toronto, Ontario - The Zoo Of Ids            "GOiDS Rule"
(416) 322-7876

"Gravity: It's more than just a fragrance.  It's the LAW!"
   - Will Steeves, President, GOiDS "R" We, Inc.

 * SLMR 2.1a * The Last Borg Scout - Starring Patrick Stewart as Locutus