HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: bate@silver.cs.umanitoba.ca (John Bate)
Subject: GoServant 0.60 available
Organization: Computer Science Dept., University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 16:12:49 GMT

GoServant 0.60 is now available!
================================

GoServant is the Macintosh IGS client. It provides a convenient
graphical user interface for playing and observing games on the
Internet Go Server.

It is available by ftp from silver.cs.umanitoba.ca
as file pub/bate/gs0.60.sit.hqx and likely will be available soon
on the standard archives: ftp.u.washington.edu (public/go).
(Please grab a copy, Adrian, if you're listening. I even remembered
to make the file readable this time. :-)

Version 0.60 fixes a few rare bugs, but primarily fixes the terminal
window. It provides a "plain" window which now has copy and paste
and scrolling, and for users with the communications toolbox, it
provides full support for terminal tools, so that you can use the
"VT102" tool and use mgt, vi, etc. directly from GoServant.

Please report any bugs, problems, or suggestions, as usual. There 
are still a lot of things on the "to do" list, and version 0.7
should not be too far away.  -JohnBate [2k]

--------------------------
Dr. John A. Bate
Dept. of Computer Science
University of Manitoba
WInnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
bate@cs.umanitoba.ca
From: smidt@fy.chalmers.se (Peter Smidt)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: TGIGC: two problems
Date: 21 Jan 93 16:19:22 GMT
Organization: Chalmers University of Technology

In article <1jc0u3INNig3@titan.ucs.umass.edu> yang@titan.ucs.umass.edu (HUAYONG YANG) writes:
>I used tgigc, a client of IGS for PC, for several times and found some
>problems. I hope someone could pass this message to its suthor Stephen
>Richard --- I don't have his internet address, if it exists.
>
>First I would say the interface of tgigc is quite nice. I love to use
>it. Problem 1: igs command 'thist' doesn't work when a board is shown. 
>It works in comm screen.

It works fine with both xigc and xigs, have you tried these
interfaces?

>Commands 'who' and 'games' work when a board is
>shown as well as in comm screen.  Problem 2: when a game of ishi format 
>is being displayed, the captured stones don't disappear, although 
>'find captures' is set to be on. I think this is a problem with telego.

Report the bug.

-- 
+=======================================+
"The whole valley is like a smorgasbord."
					-- TREMORS
From: barryp@otago.ac.nz
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: Internet Go Server Status.
Date: 25 Jan 93 10:41:32 +1300
Distribution: world
Organization: University of Otago, Dunedin, New Zealand

In article <1jncquINN9h6@terminator.rs.itd.umich.edu>, rjs@citi.umich.edu (Robert J. Skrobola) writes:
> My only question would be this: I am 19k. Say 
> I play a 23k even (he does not want h-cap). I am beating 23k by 40+,
> and he resigns (as he should). After such a game, I've had my rating become
> more :) negative. I'm not sure what the resolution might be, but
> a resign win over someone 4 stones weaker (even game), should not be
> the same as a 5 pt win over someone 4 stones weaker (even game). The second
> case is something that should affect your rating negatively, and the 
> opponents positively. The first, it isn't clear (to me)..

I would say that there is something wrong with the algorithm if a win results
in a decrease in your rating.  A friend of mine had a program to calculate
ratings iteratively in the same way as the server algorithm does.  His program
dropped results where the handicap error (rating difference for even games)
was too great and the stronger player won.  Obviously such games give you
no information and cause problems with the calculations.

There may be another problem.  I believe that the algorithm only uses the
most recent games.  It may be that at the same time one of your better
results dropped out of consideration.

It is not reasonable to use the margin on victory in any way in a rating
algorithm.  A win by resignation counts exactly the same as a win by 1 point.
If I find myself losing in a game I sometimes play an unreasonable sequence
(shobute) to try to get back in the game.  This may turn a small loss into
a large one.

So far I have no complaints about the ratings and am very appreciative of
Tim's work in programming them.  If I have a suggestion it is that some more
information be made available about other people's ratings.  I hope that
this idea wouldn't offend too many people now.

I have a query about deleting a user id to clear ratings.  Not long ago the
server dropped my account (I don't know why) when I recreated it I discovered
that the rating was still there.

Barry Phease

Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: smuench@i61s7.ira.uka.de (Stefan Muench)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: FWD: GO RULES FOR BEGINNERS (rec.games.go)
Date: 25 Jan 1993 08:21:19 GMT
Organization: University of Karlsruhe, Institute for Real-time Computer Systems and Robotics (IPR), Germany
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: i61s7.ira.uka.de

In article <9301221630.AB00981@enet-gw.pa.dec.com>, osman@hannah.enet.dec.com
("Eric, dtn 235-8439, DSG1-2/D8  22-Jan-1993 1130") writes:

*** STUFF DELETED ***

  
|> 7. The object of the game is to form unkillable groups that
|> occupy more of the board than your opponent's groups.


|> And now for my comments:
|> 
|> 7)	Wrong object!  The object isn't to to occupy more of the board with your
|> 	groups than your opponent's groups !  The object is to get more points.
|> 	Remember, points are prisoner's plus *empty* space that you own because
|> 	your opponent can't make an unkillable group there.
|> 
|> 	For example, imagine a hypothetical game where lots of the board is
|> 	filled with live black *stones* but white has more territory and less
|> 	stones.  White wins, even though black has occupied more of the board
|> 	with his groups.
|> 
|> Thanks.
|> 
|> /Eric

This holds only true if your goal is to win the game. I've read a book about
GO which says that it's at first a nice game with philosophical aspects, as
most of the readers in this group know. It also says that for some GO players
it's not necessary or even bad attitude to count the points in the end if
they've had a nice time. It's not bad to win, but that shouldn't be your only
intention to play GO...

Stefan
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: bret@HQ.Ileaf.COM (Bret Pettichord)
Subject: Re: non-Cartesian boards
Organization: Interleaf, Inc.
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1993 14:59:39 GMT

Mitchell Timin writes:

   In 1975 I made a GO "board" that could be carried and played on while
   walking.  It was a balsa wood cube, about 4 inches square, with very
   rounded edges, to roughly simulate a sphere.  On each of the six faces
   was drawn a 7 X 7 grid, but all the lines were extended to connect with
   the adjoining faces.  Hence every line went all the way around the sphere.
   This gave a total of 294 liberties, ALL of which have 4 adjoining liberties.
   (i.e., there are no corners).  The same pattern could be drawn on a
   sphere, of course.  The "stones" were thumbtacks, the long handled kind,
   in two colors.  We carried the tacks in pouches and tossed the "board"
   back and forth as we walked.  We also played it sitting in easy chairs,
   again not facing each other, but just tossing the cube back and forth.
   This all happened in Berkeley, CA.

So how did the games turn out? I would think that the games would be
very uncertain, it being so difficult to surround territory with no
edges. 

Also, what you describe sound like it had six "corners", each with three
liberties. Wouldn't it be a tad easier to create eye space around these?

Bret Pettichord
bret@ileaf.com


Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: montra@ghost.dsi.unimi.it (Paolo Montrasio)
Subject: WANTED: a pocket-sized goban
Organization: Computer Science Dep. - Milan University
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1993 12:51:19 GMT


I'd like to know if there exist any pocket-sized goban. I looked for
it in my city but I wasn't able to find any. The smaller one was a
10x10 inch goban. Too big. I don't care about the goban being made of
wood: anything will be good for me. I just want something that I can
put inside my pockets.

Perhaps such a goban there exist in Japan. If it exists I'd like to
know how can I buy it by mail.

An alternate solution is building it by myself. I have a few ideas but
I'd like to hear from someone who already did it (if anyone already
did it :-). What material did he/she used for the goban? What material
for the stones?

Let me know, and thanks in advance.
Please reply by E-mail!

			Paolo Montrasio
			montra@ghost.dsi.unimi.it
From: jlzhong@stereo.csl.uiuc.edu (Jialin Zhong)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: Internet Go Server Status.
Date: 26 Jan 93 21:09:54 GMT
Organization: Center for Reliable and High-Performance Computing, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
NNTP-Posting-Host: stereo.csl.uiuc.edu

hollasch@kpc.com (Steve Hollasch) writes:


>    On reflection, though, it occurred to me that this is the sort of
>information that a rating algorithm should NOT try to account for.
>Otherwise, 'greedy' players are rewarded while solid, conservative players
>are penalized.  For example, if I am confident that I can hold and maintain
>my 10 point lead, why get greedy just to affect my ratings algorithm?  If I
>play a simple, bloodless game with a weaker player, should I pay the price
>with a dropped rating because I only won by two stones?

>    I have heard of dan-level players who make it a point to play a secure
>game with a small but manageble lead against a much weaker player, rather
>than try to kill every group on the board.  What would be the point?  A win
>is a win.

I agree with Steve's opinion. Beating an opponent by resignation does not
mean that you beat your opponent more badly than by 1 point. Good players
play only good enough to win because they know when they are
in lead and how to keep it in a safe way. And when they are losing,
they will use extraordinary procedures, which usually will lead to dramatic
ending.

Also no one want to see a rating algorithm that encourages dragging a lost game
to the very end by not resigning. Don't we see enough of that already?

>______________________________________________________________________________
>Steve Hollasch                                   Kubota Pacific Computer, Inc.
>hollasch@kpc.com                                 Santa Clara, California

Jialin
--
Jialin Zhong		    *   /  l    l        l   l  *    ---O--O--O--O---
1614 Beckman Institute	    *  / l-l-l -l-l l-l -l- -l- *   /--*--*--*--O--O
Urbana, IL 61801	    * /l l-l-l /  l l-l /l\ /l\ *  /--/--*--/--*--O
jlzhong@uirvld.csl.uiuc.edu */ l   l  /  \l    / l X l \* /--/--/--/--/--/
From: smidt@fy.chalmers.se (Peter Smidt)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: Internet Go Server Status.
Date: 22 Jan 93 08:13:00 GMT
Organization: Chalmers University of Technology

In article <1993Jan21.172113.21925@asns.tredydev.Unisys.COM> mdobbins@asns.tredydev.Unisys.COM (Michael Dobbins) writes:
>In article <1jk79mINNeh8@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> jonathan@cats.ucsc.edu (Jonathan Cano) writes:
>>tcasey@adobe.com (Tim Casey) writes:
>>>Once a player has a rating in the system, that rating stays with that
>>>player for a long time.  I have not decided how long yet.
>>
>>I don't understand.  Shouldn't the rating stay with the player
>>forever?  Isn't this what happens in the USCF and AGA?  There a rating
>>stays with a person for life (and changes ...).  How would a rating
>>not stay with a player?
>
>It is easy to get rid of an old rating; login as a new name!  Since the
>IGS flushes logins that have been inactive for more than a month, you
>can go back to the old name after a bit more than a month.  Am I wrong,

Isn't it easier to type 'reset' to times after each other or doesn't that
work?

-- 
+=======================================+
"The whole valley is like a smorgasbord."
					-- TREMORS
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: cust_ts@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Tero Sand)
Subject: Re: close the igs server
Keywords: igs, go
Organization: University of Helsinki
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 08:37:08 GMT

In article <1993Jan28.014538.19588@adobe.com> tcasey@adobe.com (Tim Casey) writes:
>In article <44078@sdcc12.ucsd.edu> ee52fep@sdcc15.ucsd.edu (Handy Man) writes:
>>A bad news, the famouse Internet Go Service is going to shut down.
>>In order to memorize this kindly server, which has given us so much
>>joy and been our close friends during its existing, I call for all
>>the 5d, 6d and 7d come to play a tournament, to show the spirit of
>>go, to memorize this good friend --- icsib18!
>
>Gees.  The server is only *moving*.  I hope to not have *any* down time.
>IT IS ONLY MOVING.
>

Hey, c'mon, nobody said it was moving (UFO just said "Even if the server
is moved to another site, that won't help").

Anyway, I'm glad it is only moving. However, as everyone has probably
realized, the problems will continue (prove me wrong, folks!).

	Tero Sand, 2 kyu
-- 
	EMail: cust_ts@cc.helsinki.fi   or   custts@cc.helsinki.fi
   "I feel most ministers who claim they've heard God's voice are eating
too much pizza before they go to bed at night, and it's really an 
intestinal disorder, not a revelation." - Reverend Jerry Falwell
From: ee52fep@sdcc15.ucsd.edu (Handy Man)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: close the igs server
Summary: go tournament
Keywords: igs, go
Date: 27 Jan 93 09:16:23 GMT
Expires: 1 Mar 93 08:00:00 GMT
Organization: University of California, San Diego

A bad news, the famouse Internet Go Service is going to shut down.
In order to memorize this kindly server, which has given us so much
joy and been our close friends during its existing, I call for all
the 5d, 6d and 7d come to play a tournament, to show the spirit of
go, to memorize this good friend --- icsib18!

Special VIP:sheah(5p), lyu(7d), jy23(6d), khuang(7d), arron(6d)
	    sweat(6d), Xiong(NR)

( all the above is just i know, welcome the other go teachers :)
There is only 2 weeks left.  Farewell, my friend!!!
From: adrian@stein.u.washington.edu (Adrian Mariano)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: Internet Go Server Status.
Date: 22 Jan 1993 02:20:32 GMT
Organization: University of Washington
NNTP-Posting-Host: stein.u.washington.edu

In <C17CD3.200@hermes.hrz.uni-bielefeld.de> achim@math25.mathematik.uni-bielefeld.de (Achim Flammenkamp) writes:

>1) It is anoying to see the password you typed in, after your login id, echoed
>   on the screen. Especialy it is the only login to a system I know were the
>   password is'nt hided. People looking about your shoulder are ... ?

The server does not echo passwords.  

My client, igc, does.  (I don't know how to fix this and havn't
considered it particularly important.)

Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: olounela@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Olli Lounela)
Subject: Re: Internet Go Server Status.
Organization: University of Helsinki
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1993 23:56:42 GMT

In article <1993Jan21.172113.21925@asns.tredydev.Unisys.COM> mdobbins@asns.tredydev.Unisys.COM (Michael Dobbins) writes:
>In article <1jk79mINNeh8@darkstar.UCSC.EDU> jonathan@cats.ucsc.edu (Jonathan Cano) writes:
>>tcasey@adobe.com (Tim Casey) writes:
>>>Once a player has a rating in the system, that rating stays with that
>>>player for a long time.  I have not decided how long yet.
>>
>>I don't understand.  Shouldn't the rating stay with the player
>>forever?  Isn't this what happens in the USCF and AGA?  There a rating
>>	(...)
>
>It is easy to get rid of an old rating; login as a new name!  Since the
>	(...)

Also, there is the 'removeaccount' commend, which can be used to speed
this thing, unless it's been recently removed. 

-- 
	Olli, 3 dan

E-mail: olounela@cc.helsinki.fi           ! .sig still under construction.
Blame me only for any opinions expressed. !  Never you mind, I don't either.
From: jlzhong@stereo.csl.uiuc.edu (Jialin Zhong)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: go supplies
Date: 27 Jan 1993 15:50:19 GMT
Organization: Center for Reliable and High-Performance Computing, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
NNTP-Posting-Host: stereo.csl.uiuc.edu

junger@rsg1.er.usgs.gov (John Unger) writes:

>I have some old catalogs from the Sabaki Go Co. in Wilmington, DE
>and from the National Go Society in Savoy, IL.  Are either of these
              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>two businesses still operating?  They used to have go supplies at
>cheaper prices than Ishi Press.

>thanks -- John Unger

This is a new discovery indeed. Do you have there phone no.? Savoy is only
17 mile north of Champaign-Urbana, but I doubt this NGS still exist.

Jialin
--
Jialin Zhong		    *   /  l    l        l   l  *    ---O--O--O--O---
1614 Beckman Institute	    *  / l-l-l -l-l l-l -l- -l- *   /--*--*--*--O--O
Urbana, IL 61801	    * /l l-l-l /  l l-l /l\ /l\ *  /--/--*--/--*--O
jlzhong@uirvld.csl.uiuc.edu */ l   l  /  \l    / l X l \* /--/--/--/--/--/
From: chisolm@lacerta.unm.edu (Chris Chisolm)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: Internet Go Server Status.
Date: 22 Jan 1993 00:06:36 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque
NNTP-Posting-Host: lacerta.unm.edu

In article <1993Jan21.152030.15620@fy.chalmers.se> you write:
>
>My theory is that the algoritm on IGS is wrong in some sense. I have
>got some very odd results when playing/loosing against other
>players. I'm almost certain that the algoritm must have some fault,
>because I've heard of player that have won a lot but NOT got 
>a positive rating and vice versa.
>
>I'm also very suspicious to the fact that the rating is update
>after approx 1 day. I've played matches and my rating have NOT
>change or change in a very strange way in relations to my match
>results. I think that the 1 day delay is made to hide that the
>algoritm is wrong. I've mailed and asked why the delay is present
>and got no answer...

I can assure you that the delay is not intentional to hide something.
Can you honestly think of any reason why someone would intentionaly
create a problem with the rating algorithm?  Perhaps it is all a plot
by tim to increase his ranking! Cripes!

Do you have any idea how much time tim has spent on this.  I know that 
last spring I spent 6-8 hours a day 7 days a week working on the
server for several months.  I did not spend anything like the time 
that tim spent on it.  Tim has worked his ass off to provide a very
good means for people to play go over the network.  If there is a 
problem with the algorithm it could be a bug or the algorithm that
he was given may simply be incorrect.  What ever the case IT IS NOT
INTENTIONAL!

Please excuse the flame, I get really pissed about senseless griping.
If the article was meant in a manner other than I perceived it I 
apologize, I have no interest in starting a flame war.

Again to all others out there, I have nothing against good suggestions
or discussions about a topic of the server, but always remember it
was done to provide a service.

chris


>
>/Smidt
>-- 
>+=======================================+
>"The whole valley is like a smorgasbord."
>					-- TREMORS
From: doshay@ursa.arc.nasa.gov (David Doshay)
Subject: Re: go supplies
Organization: NASA-Ames Biocomputation Center
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1993 19:28:46 GMT

Because of the high cost of Go equipment from Ishi, I have encouraged a 
friend with import/export contacts in China to check out the possibility
of importing sets from China. I will let the net know if anything comes
of it. I will try to keep such information within the normal confines
of non-comercial use of the net.

David		doshay@soma.arc.nasa.gov

The thought police insist I tell you:
my thoughts, not NASA's
From: smidt@fy.chalmers.se (Peter Smidt)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: FWD: GO RULES FOR BEGINNERS (rec.games.go)
Date: 27 Jan 93 15:57:28 GMT
Organization: Chalmers University of Technology

In article <1993Jan26.144357.1104@asns.tredydev.Unisys.COM> mdobbins@asns.tredydev.Unisys.COM (Michael Dobbins) writes:
>
>Before we go too far down this path, I believe that it has been proven
>that the Chinese and Japanese scoring systems typically produce the same
>win/lose results (within one stone).  Normalizing the seki scoring rules
>and proper handling of pass stones make them identical.  This is what
>the AGA rules have done. Following those rules either Chinese or
>Japanese counting is legal in an AGA tournament.

I've played with an old version of Nemesis. And sometimes the scoring
differences was more than 1 points (3 points sometime). If this was a
program bug or if this difference was real I don't know. But I always
felt that you could gain/lose some points with one or tha other of
the counting systems.

-- 
+=======================================+
"The whole valley is like a smorgasbord."
					-- TREMORS
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: junger@rsg1.er.usgs.gov (John Unger)
Subject: Re: go supplies
Organization: U.S. Geological Survey, Reston VA
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1993 17:53:57 GMT

In article <1k6avrINN63d@roundup.crhc.uiuc.edu> jlzhong@stereo.csl.uiuc.edu (Jialin Zhong) writes:
>
>This is a new discovery indeed. Do you have there phone no.? Savoy is only
>17 mile north of Champaign-Urbana, but I doubt this NGS still exist.
>
>Jialin
>--

I have some old catalogs and literature from this National Go Society.
They are not dated, but I suspect they are about 10 years old. The
catalogs featured some very nice Korean gobans at very inexpensive
prices. I don't have a phone number, unfortunately.

cheers -- John Unger
From: mdobbins@asns.tredydev.Unisys.COM (Michael Dobbins)
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
Subject: Re: Internet Go Server Status.
Date: 25 Jan 93 13:30:08 GMT
Organization: Unisys Corporation, Tredyffrin, PA

In article <1jncquINN9h6@terminator.rs.itd.umich.edu> rjs@citi.umich.edu (Robert J. Skrobola) writes:
>more :) negative. I'm not sure what the resolution might be, but
>a resign win over someone 4 stones weaker (even game), should not be
>the same as a 5 pt win over someone 4 stones weaker (even game). The second
>case is something that should affect your rating negatively, and the 
>opponents positively. The first, it isn't clear (to me)..

The rating algorithm does not consider how badly (number of points or
resign) someone was beaten, just who won.  A half point victory counts
just as much as a 40 point victory.  
Newsgroups: rec.games.go
From: jzy@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Jim Yu)
Subject: Re: Internet Go Server Status.
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston Illinois.
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1993 01:33:22 GMT

In article <1jpt2pINNmkl@iskut.ucs.ubc.ca> lug@poplar.ppc.ubc.ca (Guoqiano Lu) writes:
>In article <1993Jan22.205110.19584@news.acns.nwu.edu>, jzy@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Jim Yu) writes:
>|> In article <1993Jan22.030618.5299@kpc.com> hollasch@kpc.com (Steve
Hollasch) writes:

[Steve's "humorous" words and my blunt flames were deleted :-( ]

>Jim i guess the original article is a kind of humor.  Less flame if you
can. :-) 

Thanks for pointing out.  This time I indeed picked up an extinguisher and
the flames in me was completely put away.

Sorry Steve.  I *thought* people playing Go are tend to be nice. :-) Give
me a hint next time, like a simily.

Jim Yu