HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: Jim.Maroon@f33.n214.z1.fidonet.org (Jim Maroon)
Newsgroups: k12.ed.science
Subject: Re: religion, skiing and
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 93 16:55:00 PDT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:214/33 - Tulare County Schoo, Visalia CA

 -=> Quoting Peter Macinnis to Lowell Herr <=-

 LH>We are attempting to keep this echo reserved for science discussions.
 LH>Thank you for your cooperation.

 PM> To which we might say "Amen, brother".

 PM> There is just one small problem: how far should we scientists and
 PM> science-trained people allow the creation pushers to go?  And is there
 PM> anywhere else for them to go?  In Australia, we have a conference area
 PM> called "C_VS_E", now echoed into the States, and all such discussions
 PM> can be dealt with there.  What other such conference areas are there?
 PM> Should there be such a conference area for teachers, where they can
 PM> exchange information about creation "science"?

        I think it is important to keep them out in the open.  It is
 counter productive to hide them and let them say this stuff unchallenged.
 At least here they can be countered.  How many scientists like Dave and
 Mickey would bother logging onto a Creation Science forum?

        While this is considered a science forum, it is hardly a scientific
 journal.  Let's allow them to ramble on while we pick apart their every
 little non-point.  Besides, controversy makes for interest, and interest is
 good.

... Blue Wave - World Tour - 1993
    Blue Wave/QWK v2.10



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uucp: uunet!m2xenix!puddle!214!33!Jim.Maroon
Internet: Jim.Maroon@f33.n214.z1.fidonet.org
From: rowe@pender.ee.upenn.edu (Mickey Rowe)
Newsgroups: k12.ed.science
Subject: Re: Evolution
Date: 8 Jan 93 00:11:41 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <35788.2B4C45D0@puddle.fidonet.org>
     Dana.Geraths@f603.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Dana Geraths) writes:

>Man has been around for approx. 5 million years, but the dinosaurs
>alone ruled the food chain for 165 million years. I think we have a
>way to go before we can call ourselves that successful.

I think that people need to be a bit more careful with statements like
this.  If you want to have any rigor, you have to compare groups of
organisms that are more equivalent.  In fact, probably the only groups
you can really compare fairly are individual species, since the
compartmentalization of higher level taxa are based on somewhat
arbitrary criteria.  The taxon Dinosauria still has no formal
recognition, but most recognize it as a term which includes the two
clades ornithischia and saurischia.  As a group, some members of both
of those clades lived during the entire time span you cite, but
individual species were much shorter lived.  I'm not sure what you
mean by "man" being around for five million years--Homo may have been
around that long, but I think that *five* million might be on the high
side.  Homo sapiens has only been around for something on the order of
100,000 years, right?

I agree with your basic premise; the dinosaurs were very successful
according to a large number of criteria, and it's silly to think of
them as "mistakes".  However, you might want to tweak your numbers a
little bit.

>Internet: Dana.Geraths@f603.n105.z1.fidonet.org

Mickey Rowe     (rowe@pender.ee.upenn.edu)
Newsgroups: k12.ed.science
From: wvhorn@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (William VanHorne)
Subject: Re: evolution
Organization: The Ohio State University
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 17:19:33 GMT

In article <35128.2B49AFC1@puddle.fidonet.org> Richard.O'donovan@f155.n633.z3.fidonet.org (Richard O'donovan) writes:
[messy text cleaned up]
> Incidentally, if one of the earliest forms of evolved life was a blue-green 
> algae, which is acknowledged as one of the most durable life forms around, 
> then why did life every evolve beyond it?  What's more, how could it if any
> mutations would be overwhelmed by the numbers of non-mutants? And then 
> there's the tricky one about cell specialisation.....

An exercise for those who doubt the reality of evolution:

Ponder, for a moment, the message pasted onto prescription antibiotic bottles.
The one that states "finish *all* this medication".  Now why do you suppose
it says that?  What's so important about finishing antibiotic prescriptions?
Why doesn't a bottle of cough syrup carry the same message? 

---Bill VanHorne

P.S. While we're here, what exactly *is* "creationism" theory?  I've seen a 
lot of people carping about evolution, but have yet to see a competing theory
put forward.  Does anyone know?
From: Peter.Macinnis@p0.f508.n711.z3.fidonet.org (Peter Macinnis)
Newsgroups: k12.ed.science
Subject: double messages
Date: Sun, 03 Jan 93 20:53:00 PDT
Organization: FidoNet node 3:711/508.0 - The Bay, Neutral Bay NSW

;rep:111,4220
My apologies for several duplicate messages which seem to have crept
through.  There were strange things happening at this end with pointers
and flags, and then the express duplicate checker died, or at the very
least became what Steve Larson calls electroencephalographically
challenged.

peter

 # SLMR 2.1 # Lobotomy: the condition of having short legs.



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Internet: Peter.Macinnis@p0.f508.n711.z3.fidonet.org
From: Dana.Geraths@f603.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Dana Geraths)
Newsgroups: k12.ed.science
Subject: Allosaurus atrox
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 93 22:39:32 PDT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:105/603 - Salem Educators Onl, Salem OR

     Could you forward this to Valdamir, if not let me know. 
 
 
      You pose some very good questions. Allosaurus atrox although a very 
large theropod had a fairly weak skull. The possibility of bite-kills is 
certainly possible but I think that it's hands would have to grasp they 
prey to keep the struggling to a minimum. 
     The claws also suggest that the inner digit was more muscular and 
could have been used as a thumb. Velociraptor's hands were designed for 
hooking and lesss for grabbing. The fingers could spread out to form a 
shape much like a bird of prey's but the thumb would have not been 
needed. They needed to mearly hook the flesh as an upper anchor for the 
kick. Archaeopteryx has a small cresent bone in it's wrist that is alot 
like that in all known Dromaeosaurids. that is the basis for their 
control. 
     From what I heard of John's study it confirmed the existance of only 
two fingers on T-rex. Likewise on "Sue". She was gound 90% complete, just 
missing a couple of cervical vert's. 
     But if I aswered any ofyour questions weird, I might not have caught 
it right, it's a second person message to me.
     Please write back if you want to clarify,
see ya.


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Internet: Dana.Geraths@f603.n105.z1.fidonet.org
From: Mike.Rafferty@p0.f318.n229.z1.fidonet.org (Mike Rafferty)
Newsgroups: k12.ed.science
Subject: Re: evolution
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 93 09:29:00 PDT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:229/318.0 - Download Dungeon Su, Peterborough ON

What do you think of the "new" theory that has been proven by some
astronomical physicists.  I'm not saying that I believe the following
or that it is exactly correct since I'm working from memory. (So if
anyone sees that I made a mistake, please correct me).

Some physicists seemed to have discovered some kind of gas(es) far out
in outer space that may have been left over from the "big bang" theory.
Now some people are theorizing/saying that physicists have proven that
there is a "higher power" out there.

!!!!!!!!!Does anyone else know more about this "discovery"?
         I'd like to find out for my own information.


... What do you mean? You actually read this Tagline?!?

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Internet: Mike.Rafferty@p0.f318.n229.z1.fidonet.org
From: Robin.Davis@p0.f45.n342.z1.fidonet.org (Robin Davis)
Newsgroups: k12.ed.science
Subject: Hows it going
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 93 17:44:46 PDT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:342/45.0 - SPQR, Edmonton AB

Hay I think you know who I am.  I work with your Dad, drink with him on a 
regular basis and I have been to your house for supper.


 # GateOrigin: 89:701/242.0@imex


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From: Rebekah.Lawrence@p0.f14.n346.z1.fidonet.org (Rebekah Lawrence)
Newsgroups: k12.ed.science
Subject: sexual preference
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 93 10:37:04 PDT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:346/14.0 - Room 5, Bonners Ferry ID

Hello All!  My name is Rebekah Lawrence and I am a senior at
Bonners Ferry High School.  I have recently been hearing various
reportsd on homosexuality being a result of a brain defect.  I know
very little about this new theory, only about my ideas on this
topic.  My opinion is that it is a personal decision.  I feel it
has a lot to do with morals and what is right and what is wrong.
I happen to feel it is wrong.  I do not know anything about the
brain defect.  In this day and age, homosexuality is a hot topic. 
 
There have been explanations saying homosexuality is not a choice,
but a problem one can not help.  I know very little about this
subject.  I have read a couple articles  describing the difference
between the brain of a homosexual and that of a "strait"
individual.  The size was the defect.  Please reply as soon as
possible, those of you who are more knowledgable than I on this
touchy subject.  Thank you for your time.  Rebekah Lawrence 


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Internet: Rebekah.Lawrence@p0.f14.n346.z1.fidonet.org
From: Mike.Peterson@p0.f14.n346.z1.fidonet.org (Mike Peterson)
Newsgroups: k12.ed.science
Subject: RE: Computer Probeware
Date: Thu, 07 Jan 93 10:28:40 PDT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:346/14.0 - Room 5, Bonners Ferry ID

 
Dear Mr. Jantzen,
 
     Thank You for responding to my message. I am currently using
the temperature probe to see if the heaters in our school really
work. So far the results are saddening. We have the PSL, Personal
Science Laboratory Probeware that is hooked up to a IBM compatible
labtop. Each student in our class is required to do one experiment
each semester. We have the light, PH, distance, and temperature
probe. our class uses these for Biology, physics, and The PH probe
for measuring grapefruit. I have watched people do experiments such
as seeing how long it takes a certain watt light bulb to reach an
untouchable temperature. Aaron Evans is dipping the temperature
probe into tap water and then seeing how cold it will get because
of evaporation.
 
-Mike



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Newsgroups: k12.ed.science
Subject: Re: environment
From: jsanders@phys.ksu.edu (Justin M. Sanders)
Date: 4 Jan 1993 07:33:00 GMT
Organization: Department of Physics, Kansas State University, Manhattan KS, USA
NNTP-Posting-Host: bohr.phys.ksu.edu

Olivia Schauble wrote:
>Bonners is a logging community with around 2500
>people. [deletions]
>I was wondering if you have any information about how wood smoke
>affects the air. Most homes in and around Bonners use wood heat
>for the winter. Spokane, only 100 or so miles from here, has air
>pollution laws about burning wood. How long do you suppose it
>will be until towns like Bonners Ferry will be forced to have
>laws like these? I will be eagerly waiting for your reply.

Hi, Olivia, my name is Justin Sanders.  I'm a physicist at 
Kansas State University.  Your question about wood smoke 
was an interesting one.  It got me thinking (a very good
thing to do!).  

There are at least two differences (one certain and one
possible) between Bonners Ferry and Spokane.  The possible
difference is terrain-- if a city is in a valley, that would tend
to trap the smoke.  The certain difference is population density.

Suppose everyone in Bonners heated with wood, then there would be
about 500 households with woodstoves (assuming an average of 5 people
per household).  If Bonners covers about 1 square mile, then that
gives 500 woodstoves per square mile.  On the other hand, the 
population of Spokane (in 1980) was 171300 meaning that there 
would be 32650 woodstoves if every family heated with wood-- that 
is 65 times more stoves than in Bonners.  But Spokane has an area of 
about 36 square miles (this is VERY approximate).  So if everyone 
in Spokane heated with wood, there would be almost twice as many
stoves per square mile as in Bonners.  Now I probably underestimated
the area of Bonners Ferry, so the difference might be even greater.

So the practice of heating with wood may never become a problem
in Bonners Ferry unless the population density gets much higher--
more like that of Spokane.

What I just did was to make some reasonable estimates and use 
those estimates with very simple mathematics to shed some light
on Olivia's question.  This is something that scientists have to
do all the time...make estimates and see roughly what the answer
might be.  These rough calculations (called "back of the envelope
calculations") allow the scientist to see if the line of reasoning 
is promising-- if it is, then he or she can go back and look at the
problem more carefully and use more accurate numbers (which the 
scientist may have to measure him or herself).
--
Justin M. Sanders    
Dept. of Physics     "I could not fail to disagree with you less."
Kansas State Univ.                           -- Gabriel Weinreich
From: Richard.O'donovan@f155.n633.z3.fidonet.org (Richard O'donovan)
Newsgroups: k12.ed.science
Subject: Re: animals
Date: Sun, 03 Jan 93 02:15:02 PDT
Organization: FidoNet node 3:633/155 - SECAP BBS, Clayton Vic

 -=> Quoting Joshua Kramer to Sharon Harms <=-

 SH>question was, Should rabbits be used for testing of lotions,
 SH>shampoos and conditioners?  Yhis can go for any animal not
JM>just
 SH>rabbits.  I think it is better to test the product on animals
 SH>before msrketing the product rather than putting it out on
JM>market

 JK> I disagree... the cosmetics that are tested upon rabbits
JM>are not
 JK> staples of life and they are not needed... and sacrificing
JM>animals for
 JK> something that is not needed is illogical.

People can wear all the cosmetics they like, there are clearly thousands of the things around.  Why sacrifice animals for the sake of a new one that is infinitesimally different (if not only in brandname) from something already available.  I'll have to chase up the article but from memory there was a woman in the U.S. who sued a large cosmetics company because she had a severe reaction to a producetthat blinded her.  The company's defence rested on the fact that animals are not accurate models of humans an
d therefore the results of their experiments could not be taken as guarantees of safety.  Apparently they won the case.  And of course, they're right.  Animals that aren't human, believe it or not, aren't human, so the results of such experiments are largely meaningless since they can't be extrapolated to cater for humans with certainty.
.


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From: jim@apsicc.aps.edu (frost...)
Newsgroups: k12.ed.science
Subject: MAGNET Schools
Date: 12 Jan 1993 17:28 MST
Organization: Albuquerque Public Schools - Career Enrichment Center
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: apsicc.aps.edu
Keywords: MAGNET Schools
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    


Hello all,
  I am attempting to obtain as much information or opinions as possible
regarding peoples thoughts on the value of MAGNET schools. Schools that
offer either highly specialized courses or courses which are for one
reason or another, such as limited enrollment at a single school but
high enrollment at a centralized district site, valuable in that context
for providing and filling an overall need within a school district.
  I have run a random in district survey of opinions and I would like
to contrast that with opinions of educators around the country. This
particular MAGNET school services the needs of eleven high schools and
provides courses for not only college bound students but also vocational
and technical training courses. As examples, everything from computer
related courses (data-entry training through business to advanced place-
ment), building trades (general construction through cabinet making),
word-processing (court reporting through advanced word-processing tech-
niques), advanced classical and modern languages (Latin to Hebrew to
Japanese to Spanish to Russian, etc.),  pre-med, A.P. calculus/fortran,
A.P. physics, A.P. chemistry, aviation science, astronomy, an LPN course
which has a high school student qualified for their Licensed Practical
Nursing Certificate upon H.S. graduation, nursing assistant and homebound
aide program, etc.
  This is an important topic for us as we would like to make the program
even better and we need input from all sources to do so. 
  Unfortunately we need to present this Friday; January 15 so any opinions
you could send my way would be appreciated and forwarded on to the appro-
priate people as soon as they are received. If you could EMail to me at
me address below it would help to save a great deal of time but I will
also followup on the conferences.
			Thank you very much for your help in advance,
							Jim Skeba
======================================================================
   We are rapidly ascending through prosperity to poverty...  Twain
                    Internet:    jim@apsicc.aps.edu
       Albuquerque Public Schools - Instructional System Manager 
======================================================================
From: Scott.Ferguson@f2.n255.z1.fidonet.org (Scott Ferguson)
Newsgroups: k12.ed.science
Subject: SCIENCE FAIR INFO
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 93 11:03:56 PDT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:255/2 - NEWBED, Fredericton NB

I am currently working on science fair projects in my class and I would like 
to know if anyone can help me with a problem that I have.  Quite a few of my 
students are having difficulties coming up with original ideas for their 
projects and I am sort oif tapped out as well. Would any one have any 
suggestions as to where I could come up with some more ideas? Perhaps some 
videos or readings, magazines etc. Thank-you.

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Internet: Scott.Ferguson@f2.n255.z1.fidonet.org
From: Dean.Mesenbrink@p0.f14.n346.z1.fidonet.org (Dean Mesenbrink)
Newsgroups: k12.ed.science
Subject: Logging
Date: Fri, 08 Jan 93 09:29:02 PDT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:346/14.0 - Room 5, Bonners Ferry ID

Dear Joshua,
 
     My family has lived in Bonners Ferry, Idaho for about 60 years
now. My father started a sawmill about 35 years ago. In his years
my father has seen many good and bad things come from logging. Not
all logging is bad. Take for example the Yaak River drainage. This
is an area of about 40 sq. miles. It was full of small over dense
lodge pole pine trees. Bugs came through during the 70s and left
the area full of dead trees. These dead and dying were a serious
fire hazard. In 1992 a windstorm came through the area and a fire
started and burned out of control. The Forest Service was forced to
send many crews of fire fighters up to fight this fire. Lots of our
tax dollars were spent on taking care of this fire. The burned
trees are now being cut before they blow over. If the loggers would
have been able to cut these trees in the first place, we would not
have had to spend the time and money to put this fire out.
     Now let me tell you some facts about the evergreen trees in
our area. Evergreen trees acount for only about 15% of the oxygen
in our area. Once an evergreen tree reaches a certain age and size
it starts using oxygen instead of producing it. Does it not make
good sence to cut these trees before they reach this point. As far
as everyone dying from lack of oxygen, well I think you are
thinking more about the slashing and burning of the tropical rain
forests. I may be a logger, but I do not think this cutting of the
rain forests is a very smart thing to doing. I think we need to be
worring more about this cutting of rain forests were most of the
worlds oxygen is produced than the cutting of evergreen trees that
produce little oxygen.
 
                                                   From,
                                                   Dean Mesenbrink 



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From: rowe@pender.ee.upenn.edu (Mickey Rowe)
Newsgroups: k12.ed.science
Subject: Re: animals
Date: 6 Jan 93 00:04:49 GMT
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <35129.2B49AFC2@puddle.fidonet.org>
     Richard.O'donovan@f155.n633.z3.fidonet.org (Richard O'donovan) writes:

>...  I'll have to chase up the article but from memory there was a
>woman in the U.S. who sued a large cosmetics company because she had a
>severe reaction to a producetthat blinded her.  The company's defence
>rested on the fact that animals are not accurate models of hum
>d therefore the results of their experiments could not be taken as
>guarantees of safety.  Apparently they won the case.  And of course,
>they're right.  Animals that aren't human, believe it or not, aren't
>human, so the results of such experiments are largely meaningless
>since they can't be extrapolated to cater for humans with certainty.

The fallacy here on the part of the proverbially suing woman, and
perhaps of Mr. O'donavan himself is hoping to find "certainty" from
science.  Science cannot give certainty, nor do its practitioners
claim that it will.  Most likely the aim of the attorneys for the
defense was to say that the company in question had performed
reasonable tests of their product's safety.  Then it was up to the
judge or jury to decide whether or not the company was reasonable or
negligent.  Whatever the decision, it could not be considered either
an endorsement or a vilification of the methods developed by
scientists (only perhaps on there application or lack thereof).

Taken to the extreme Mr. O'donovan's argument could read "just because
a product is safe for some humans doesn't mean that it's safe for all
of them.  Therefore all tests on willing human subjects are
meaningless since they can't be extrapolated with certainty to other
non-tested humans".

>Internet: Richard.O'donovan@f155.n633.z3.fidonet.org

Mickey Rowe     (rowe@pender.ee.upenn.edu)
From: Lowell.Herr@f29.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Lowell Herr)
Newsgroups: k12.ed.science
Subject: Project PHYSLab
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 93 04:36:00 PDT
Organization: FidoNet node 1:105/29 - The Catlin Gabel Sc, Portland OR

This is the last call for applications for the computer interfacing workshop,
Project PHYSLab.  Application deadline is February 1.  I will accept
 applications if postmarked by that date.  For further information write to:

Project PHYSLab
Lowell G. Herr
The Catlin Gabel School
8825 S.W. Barnes Road
Portland, OR  97225

We are interested in helping physics teachers learn how to use technology now
available for data collection and analysis.

Lowell


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