From: srinivas@vision.crd.ge.com (Chukka Srinivas)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian
Subject: Re: hyderabadi muslims, patriotism etc.,.
Date: 20 Dec 92 21:00:28 GMT
Organization: GE Corp. Research & Development, Schenectady, NY

In article <1992Dec20.020501.29982@ringer.cs.utsa.edu> sjayanth@ringer.cs.utsa.edu (Satyanand V. Jayanthi) writes:
>
>>
>
>::Maybe, you are reading too much into what I wrote.
>::In a different section, you DO agree that your middle class
>::status did influence your perceptions about patriotism.
>::That's all my point is.
>::So, rather than getting into
>::this meaningless discussion about 'who is more patriotic?'
>::concentrate on addressing real issues -like improving 
>::living conditions and building up economic security among
>::people - and then these questions about national loyalty and
>::patriotism make sense. 
>
>I dont think the debate started of so as to decide who is more patriotic and to
>finally award medals. The whole point of discussion is that there have been
>communal riots, that there is a mutual trust lacking between the country's
>main religious groups. I ventured to suggest that many hindus(including myself)
>have a perception that many Muslims are not loyal to the country .. i have gone
       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>ahead and enumerated some reasons why it is that people could be feeling that
>way. I hope the debate makes more sense to you now...


    My main point is that this national loyality question
    (hence these perceptions - however real or unreal)
    does not make sense without a material basis for it. 
  
>
>::
>::I am not talking about any leader's nobler thoughts.
>::I am talking about how common people like me start to 
>::identify with the concept of nation.
>::Patriotic feelings are neither inborn nor do they dawn
>::upon us on one fine morning.
>::
>
>Right. patriotic feelings are neither inborn nor do they dawn upon us one
>fine morning. Infact we are "trained" to be patriotic. And left alone,
>we could be having one of the following feelings towards the country:
>
>1. Disinterest. Look after oneself. Basically take it easy. 
>2. Loyality. This is the equivalent to patriotism.
>3. Hatred / Antipathy / loyality to some other country.
>

   First, this kind of categorization is too naive and simplistic.
   Look into Indian history how Indian nation was formed,
   how at different times different groups got identified with or
   fought against the Indian State. That's another issue.
   Anyhow, to not to divert the issue here, for the time-being
   let's use your own classification.

    A majority of Indian people, be it Hindu or Muslim, belong
    to the first category.
    On the top of it, Indian muslims have an added burden
    of being a poor and illiterate minority among a constantly
    suscipicious majority. Naturally, they feel much more
    insecure than Hindus.

    I am tired of repeating this -- People identify with the
    nation only when they feel that it addresses thier interests.

>
>People in the category three are not the kind of people who do not have any
>"incentive" to identify themselves with the country. They are not the "common
>men" who are basically tending to themselves, with no time for some abstract
>notions like loyality to the nation, patriotism etc. They are well capable
>of loyality to the country, and they chose not to be for a variety of reasons.
>And, when they are not loyal to the country, either they should leave the
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>country or stay as say people belonging to category one do- lead their
^^^^^^^^^^
>own lives. At the present stage of our civilisation, with the present 
>understanding of the notion of nation-state, that is how it is supposed to be.



   I strongly object to this statement. As people born
   in that place, they are as native as any other person.
   Nobody, be it State or majority or minority, have this
   right to ask somebody, irrespective of thier views, to
   stay in or leave the country.


>And the distrust of many hindus about many muslims is not that they are in
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>category 1, but that they are in category 3. If, due to whatever reasons a
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>section of muslims feel loyal to pakistan, why do they stay here? Why cannot
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
                                       
>they go to pakistan? The problem is not that they are more attached to another
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>country, the problem is that inspite of that loyality, they continue to stay
>here. I hope i made myself clear. If they are loyal to another country, go to
>that country..do not stay back and keep expressing loyality to the other
>country.
>


I have several objections to this statement.

1. Your perception that many muslims belong to category 3
   is far-fetched and unsubstantiated so far. I do not
   know whether you realise this - you are being very
   offensive to a majority of Indian muslims and many
   others. 

   Show me a single statement in the last 40 years by
   any Indian muslim leader that they do not want to
   be Indians.
   Show me a single demonstration by Indian muslims
   demanding that.
   I do not deny the stray incidents you point out to.
   But DO NOT present these incidents as any kind of
   evidence.
   Either you substantiate it with proper evidence or
   else withdraw this statement.



2. Let's for a minute assume that what you say is true.
   Even then, what extra rights you or Hindus or anybody else
   have to ask them to leave the country?

    IF a majority of muslims (or any other group X) feel that India
    is not serving thier interests, they have as much right as you
    to demand and fight for thier own country and decide what they
     want to do.

     (Different other groups on different grounds did
     make this demand whenever they felt unhappy with the
     Indian Govt...be it in Tamilnadu...Goa..Punjab..Mizoram..
     Nagaland..Kashmir..)

     I hope you realise that country is not a piece of land.
     It is made up of people.


>::(An Indian Hindu does not have to come in conflict with his religious
>::loyality to oppose Pakistan. For that matter, in some cases thier Hindu
>::religion loyality further enforced thier oppostion to Pakistan.) 
>
>Does this mean that you agree that for many muslims, their faith is making
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>them more loyal to pakistan? In that case, why do they still stay in india?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^



Possible, for some muslims.
But I will not use a loaded word like 'loyality'.
It is very much possible that these people may not share
your view of Pakistan as this big national enemy next door.
Pakistan maybe viewed as a Islamic neighbor.  That's all.

Remember that many of them relatives and friends are there
in Pakistan.  And for some, this illusion maybe about a
place where Islamic laws reign.
(it is like this fascination with the idea of 'Ram Rajya'
for some Hindus, however vague and distorted the idea may be.
In both the cases, what you attribute to it may not have
anything to do with reality)

And Sir, any of this need NOT imply disloyality to
India and loyality to Pakistan. I repeat, it need NOT.

As an Indian Hindu, you maybe reading what may not be there.

This is where you have to understand that our societies
did not overcome thier religious and regional loyalities yet.
Majority of people do not identify with this concept of 'country'.

I repeat this again..without change in lot of other socio-economic
conditions a Hindu or Muslim cannot really identify with this
concept of India or Pakistan.....

And this question of disloyality to India and loyality
to Pakistan is meaningless......

Unlike Indian Hindus and Pakistani Muslims, Indian muslims
and Pakistani Hindus are asked to address this question.
This is what is unfair.


So, if you want people, be Hindu or Muslim or for that matter
anybody, to really identify with this concept of India address
bigger issues which effect thier day to day lives. 
And not mosques, temples and flags.

Our superficial perceptions and communal myths
spread by vested interests are not the issues.
And let's not make a big deal about these.

>
>Again to summarise, no one is asking them to prove the loyality of any group
>to the country. All i am asking is that there should not be loyality to the
>other country (an enemy country)..and why do i ask this? because there have
>been quite a few instances when they have demonstrated so...That you have
>chosen to participate in this debate so far, i assume is your acceptance 
>that there have been demostrations...and that the issue is whether they
>are disloyal or loyal inspite of it.
>
>-Narain.


Again I repeat. I do not want to and I cannot also deny your experiences.
I have observed similar ones. But I differ in what's we want deduce
from that.
i) we cannot generalize this to the whole of Indian muslim population,
ii) it does in no way implies disloyality to India and loyality
to Pakistan
iii) This issue cannot be discussed in isolation from the existing
socio-economic conditions in the country.

-srinivas.