HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: barclay@RAIL9000.gatech.edu (Barclay Blanchard)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: literature students
Date: 29 Sep 92 12:10:44 GMT
Organization: Georgia Tech Research Institute

In article <9209281813.AA26272@cfdev1.shearson.com> mtaranto@shearson.com (Mark Taranto) writes:
>When one is used to taking a senior level Math or Physics
>class, one can be assured that nearly all of the students will have the
>necessary background.  It is difficult to take a Real Analysis class
>without having had Advanced Calculas, which in turn requires the general
>Calculas class.  Students without the right background are weeded out.

You may havpinned down my frustration.  But I have encountered students
(a lab partner of mine, for one) who had gotten as far as Modern Physics
(beginner's quantum) and couldn't remember the formula for a line.  

I'm finding it frustrating in 20th century novel class (which is senior level)
that the teacher spends class time rehashing the plot (_Lord Jim_) and 
pointing out where the flashbacks/forwards are and who is narrating where.

As far as the background, I don't feel entirely comfortable with mine in
literature.  I've never been good at dates or at recalling authors I don't like
(Milton for example, who is considered a cornerstone of our literature by many
academics).  But I think there's a place for looking at novels in a 
non-formulaic way in the classroom.  I'm not entirely sure how I want them 
looked at... that'll take me a few years to hash through, I imagine.  But I
know that I'm tired of hearing the same old stuff applied to different books
over and over.  I like hearing about an author's background and experience, for
one thing.  (I know that's not an especially new approach.)  I like hearing
several different views about a work (especially one like Melville's stories
or Henry James's).  I take lit. classes to broaden my perspective, not to see
the works reduced to formulae.  I think I'm also frustrated with works 
deeply rooted in Christianity (like Milton's), especially restrictive 
Christianity (and I don't remember Milton well enough to say if he fits that
category).  

>There is nothing unusual about Barclay being frustrated at the level of student
>in an upper division literature class.  However, there might be something
>unusual about her expectations.
> 
Thanks.  I think I expect the world to pander to my needs when I should be 
finding my own way to get them met.

-- 
Barclay Elizabeth Blanchard    barclay@rail9000@gatech.edu
"I've been laughed at by some of the funniest people."
--Lissie, Alice Walker's _The Temple of My Familiar_
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mtaranto@shearson.com (Mark Taranto)
Subject: Books in the time of Love
Organization: Yale CS Mail/News Gateway
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 21:03:26 GMT


Strange that Fiona and I should both respond to the Wise Man of Las Vegas 
with personal stories of how a relationship (start of love for me, end of
love for her) colored or enhanced our reading of a book.  The coincidence
actually extends to geography (although not time), since I was living in
the town where Fiona went to school, when I read THE GOOD SOLDIER.
 
Anyway, it seems like a good thread.  What books were you reading during the
start or end of love, where the book was viewed in a different light
because of what was happening in your life?  And, HEY, I don't want any
of these SMART WOMEN, FOOLISH CHOICES type books.  I want to know how
the start of love affected your reading of LOVE IN THE TIME OF CHOLERA
or the end of love changed your outlook on WUTHERING HEIGHTS or how your 
first sexual experience altered the way you look at SLOUCHING TOWARDS
KALAMAZOO or how your narcissism made you think just a little differently
about PORTNOY'S COMPLAINT.  For those who have never been in love, write
a short description about how your xenophobia has affected your reading of
THE LOVESONG OF J. ALFRED PRUFROCK.
 
Where I castigated the r.a.b.fest participants for giving us details
rather than art (and am happy to see Sburgfort take up the call), I 
shall implore all of you to do just the opposite, here.  Give us
ALL the lurid details.  Don't be afraid to name names.
 
Mark
 
 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: Lisa.Levine@Corp.Sun.COM (Lisa Levine)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Enforced Shakespeare
Date: 30 Sep 92 16:40:25 GMT

I don't know if the group still exists, but the
University of Hawaii used to sponsor _wonderful_
versions of Shakespeare plays in pidgin English.

Eventually I learned to appreciate the original 
texts, but the pidgin rendition of "As You Like It"
in Ala Moana Park is permanently etched in some of 
my `best' brain cells.  I know that these lighthearted
productions enabled a lot of local kids to appreciate 
`da bard's' wit and insight.  

(However, the idea of doing these plays in any other
contemporary dialect makes me cringe!)

--Lisa
From: c60b-2hz@web-3e.berkeley.edu (Nathaniel Meyers)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: Fictitious Fiction
Date: 1 Oct 1992 21:13:29 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: web-3e.berkeley.edu

Umm, wasn't "A Clockwork Orange" a novel mentioned in "A Clockwork Orange"?
And there's always the obvious "Pyramus and Thisbe" in a Midsummers Night
Dream (Brownie points--what plays did Theseus choose not to watch?) and
"The Murder of Gonzago" in Hamlet? If you include Science Fiction, I like
"The Magical Sorceress of Oz", a nifty detail in the otherwise worse than
forgettable "Otherside of Time" by Kieth Laumer.
-N

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: jciliber@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu (Jon Ciliberto)
Subject: Address for Edward R. Hamilton Bookseller
Organization: University of Hawaii
Distribution: rec.arts.books
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1992 21:36:46 GMT

For all who have been interested by the many favorable comments on Edward R.
Hamilton, their address is:

	Edward R. Hamilton Bookseller
	Falls Village, CT  06031-5000

I just received a new catalog today.

--
Don't be a slyboots           |					  Jon Ciliberto
Cunning, shrewd, a rogue      |			jciliber@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.edu
Don't be a shyboots,          |________________________________________________
Nobody likes a slyboots.   - "Things Not to Be", Steve Martin
From: miner@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: She's baaaaack.....Camille Paglia
Date: 28 Sep 92 16:09:26 CDT
Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services

In article <1992Sep28.045006.12800@genie.slhs.udel.edu>, starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu (Tim Starr) writes:
> In article <JMC.92Sep26122103@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU writes:
> }This extract from Radner's review is aimed at rallying her, presumably
> }feminist, troops rather than at convincing the uncommitted.

[...]

> Robin Lakoff issued a
> missive from her exalted position in UCB's Linguistics department calling
> Paglia a neoconservative 
Linguists aren't known for their political acumen.  

Consider Chomsky.

[...]
-- 
********************************** +.............................+
*- Ken <miner@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu>* :All opinions expressed herein:
*There is no privileged position.* :are my own and are not to be :
*	-God, Derrida, others    * : attributed to my employer   :
********************************** +.............................+

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: heidi@wolf.net.com (Heidi Wolf)
Subject: Nietzsche Kietzsche Koo (was: stuff about Camille Paglia)
Organization: N.E.T., Redwood City, CA
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 20:48:58 GMT

In article <1992Sep29.184058.14155@morrow.stanford.edu> francis@oas.stanford.edu
(Francis Muir) writes:

>Jon Corelis writes:
>
>	Someone here recently made the preposterous suggestion that a 
>	certain person whose name I'm tired of mentioning might be the 
>	contemporary American version of Nietzsche. The statment might 
>	actually be true in a sense of Mailer.
>
>The reference is to the Virgo Intaglio herself, Camille Paglio. Preposterous?
>How so? Mailer has entertained me often enough, but he's never made me mad.
>Indeed, he's never made me anything. Now the Pagger is quite another kettle
>of fish. An interesting thread. Two. Who is the rightful heir to Nietzsche?
>To whom is CM the rightful heir?



Perhaps Camille Paglia is to feminism what Nietzsche's sister was
to Nietzsche's philosophy....


Heidi Wolf

Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: lopresti@henson.cc.wwu.edu (lopresti robert)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Riddley Walker's language
Date: 30 Sep 92 17:55:20 GMT
Article-I.D.: henson.1992Sep30.175520.14068
Organization: Western Washington University


I wandered into this thread late, and apologize for any repititions
or point missing.  Two things about the language in Russell Hoban's
Riddley Walker, which I consider one of the greatest books I have ever
had the pleasure to encounter:

1.  To have these people two thousand + years in the future talking
the Queen's english would be bizarre and unrealistic.

2.  Hoban can say things in his new language that he can't say in
our English.

Examples:  (and some of these are taken from articles about the
book) 

The first sentence starts approximately "On my naming day when I
turned 12 I killed a boar..."

Okay, change the 12 to the more standard "twelve" and what do you lose?
Remember that one of the main themes of the book is division, "the
1 becomes the 2."  By using 12 instead of twelve Hoban ties Riddley
to that process of division in the very first sentence.

Try translating another key phrase "the wud in the hart of the stoan"
into standard English.  Is it "wood in the heart" or "would in the 
heart" or "wood in the hearth" or "wood in the hart (deer)"?  Because
all these words are spelled the same in Riddley's English the 
meanings are much more complex than if Hoban had to choose a single one.
Ditto with Addom which is both atom and Adam.  Etc.

Later in the book one character accuses the other of being too
optimistic.  He says (again, approx.)  "yur rolling a ful's pair a dice."
So "living in a fool's paradise" has mutated.  But why?  Because 
gambling is important to these people but the idea of heaven or utopia
(paradise) is lost.

TO put in a glossary might give the book a few more readers but it
would allow people to look for simple translations rather than
thinking about WHY the language has become what it means.

Enough blabber.  Cheers.

Rob Lopresti
lopresti@henson.cc.wwu.edu
From: daq@hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Doug Quarnstrom)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 15:22:32 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: The White Man's Burden of Proof - New words!!
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books

In rec.arts.books, wojdylo@maths.uwa.oz.au (INFIDEL) writes:

> 
> >                                             -- jf
> 
> My dear James-filler, 
> 
> 
> 	There once was a fucking liar called Quarnstorm
> 	Who could not resist the occassional barnstorm
> 	But Dougie's dick having been bit
> 	Re-emerged as a dark shit
> 	On VDU screens all over the U.S.
> 
> 
> Ain't that sweet ?

You, know, I think I like it.  It has a certain charm.  And since
it is about me, I find it inherently fascinating.

Quite lovely.  I hope it finds its way into your collected works.
I would be honored and humbled at the very same time.


doug
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir)
Subject: Re: Exit Shakespeare....
Organization: Stanford Exploration Project
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 19:49:56 GMT

Vance Maverick writes:

	Jeff Davis writes:

		As a partial reprieve from the Enforced Shakespeare 
		gas...who would be our Shakespeare, say, had the 
		little balding bugger been skewered poaching deer?

	Nobody.  One of the many interesting speculations in Steiner's
	_After Babel_ is that on how good it might be for a literature
	(let's ignore the problems of that phrase for a bit) to lack "a
	Shakespeare", an influence everybody feels in some set of forms --
	drama and poetry being the ones his presence deformed in English.  

There is a regional aspect to all this. It makes a lot of sense to teach
Shakespeare universally in England [where the thread originated] and for
reasons that I would not expect Americans to understand. It makes no sense
at all for Jeff's "little balding bugger" to play anything but a minor
role in America. Frankly, there's something slightlu embarrassing about
Stratfords and Shakespeare Festivals in places other than England. Almost
as silly as Spoleto-by-the-Sea in one of the Carolinas -- I forget which.

						Fido
From: Crawford_Kilian@mindlink.bc.ca (Crawford Kilian)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
Subject: Re: The NEW Yorker!
Date: 3 Oct 92 00:42:12 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada
Distribution: world

Rob Ehle's posting about the new regime the the NYer is alarming...we've
subscribed for many years, ignoring some of the changes since the putsch of
1986 (after all, McPhee was still geologizing), but this new editor may
consider old poops like me (age 51, reader since about 1950) of no
demographic or commercial interest. We'll get our first New Regime issue
sometime next week, I guess. Brrr.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: mnemonic@eff.org (Mike Godwin)
Subject: Re: Exit Shakespeare....
Originator: mnemonic@eff.org
Organization: Electronic Frontier Foundation
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1992 16:36:22 GMT

In article <9210020427.AA26435@cfdev1.shearson.com> mtaranto@shearson.com (Mark Taranto) writes:
>
>francis@oas.stanford.edu (Francis Muir) writes:
> 
>> There is a regional aspect to all this. It makes a lot of sense to teach
>> Shakespeare universally in England [where the thread originated] and for
>> reasons that I would not expect Americans to understand. It makes no sense
>> at all for Jeff's "little balding bugger" to play anything but a minor
>> role in America. Frankly, there's something slightlu embarrassing about
>> Stratfords and Shakespeare Festivals in places other than England. Almost
>> as silly as Spoleto-by-the-Sea in one of the Carolinas -- I forget which.
> 
>As Francis so aptly proves here, I was wrong the other day.  He IS a
>boring old fart.  Do any of us believe any of what he writes here?

Well, I believe *Francis* believes what he writes here ... about 40
percent of the time. (Yes, the ambiguity was deliberate.)

But I wouldn't be too hard on him for his continual yanking of American
chains; it must be hard to come from a third-rate power whose major
exports are scandals and actors, and whose major national resource is a
collection of crumbling castles.

As the United States continues its own swift decline into irrelevance and
economic malaise, we can take comfort in the fact that the English have
blazed so wide a trail for us.


--Mike




-- 
Mike Godwin,    |"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact 
mnemonic@eff.org| of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, 
(617) 864-0665  | both are transformed."
EFF, Cambridge  |                           --Carl Jung 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: sjun@crim.eecs.umich.edu (Sungtaeg Jun)
Subject: Info. about publisher and agency etc.
Keywords: Publisher, Agency
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor, MI
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 21:02:07 GMT

I have a sister who likes to publish a book translated from
korean to english ( with the authors permission, of course ).

My question to net is;

1. Is it necessary to contact the agency instead of publisher
  directly?

2. If so, where can we get the list of well known agencies?

3. What is the best way to contact them? (Agencies? Publishers?)

4. Are there any things aware when dealing with agencies?

Thanks in advance,

--
Sungtaeg Jun
sjun@crim.eecs.umich.edu
Xref: sparky rec.arts.books:17781 rec.arts.sf.written:13485
From: tittle@ics.uci.edu (Cindy Tittle Moore)
Subject: Book catalogues and Book clubs
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,rec.arts.sf.written
Reply-To: tittle@ics.uci.edu (Cindy Tittle Moore)
Organization: ICS Dept., UC Irvine
Date: 6 Oct 92 23:48:51 GMT
Followup-To: poster

I'm collecting the names & addresses (& relevant information) on book
catalogues and book clubs.  So far I have for catalogues: Boydell &
Brewer, A Common Reader, Daedalus Books, Dover Publications, Edward
Hamilton, and Hampstead House Books.  For book clubs, I have: The
Literary Guild, and The Science Fiction Book club.  I'm especially
interested in non-US catalogues; I'd like to make this a truely
international listing.  Special-topic book catalogues, etc. are all
welcome!

I plan to make a periodical posting out of this information.  I would
appreciate it if you would send my info on any other book
catalogues/clubs.  I know there are many more out there, the above is
what is sitting on my desk at the moment!  Email, please.

Thanks,
--Cindy


--
Cindy Tittle Moore

Internet: tittle@ics.uci.edu       | BITNET: cltittle@uci.bitnet
UUCP:     ...!ucbvax!ucivax!tittle | Usnail: PO Box 4188, Irvine CA, 92716
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: fi@grebyn.com (Fiona Webster)
Subject: Re: rab fest, part 2 (long)
Organization: Grebyn Timesharing
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1992 13:29:14 GMT

William R. Smith writes about his encounter with the Log Lady,
and then tells us about a mysterious individual...
>...dressed completely in white:  an apparition.  Close cropped white
>hair, matching white beard hugging his face.  White shirt, white sleeveless
>sweater, white, well creased slacks, white shoes.

Gosh, did you ask him if he was from the White Lodge?

(I know, I know.  Pummel me with a smoked-cheese pig or something.)

							--Fiona
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: Margaret Martin Gardiner <gardiner@lib.uwo.ca>
Subject: Literature of Travel
Organization: Relayed-by-Sendmail
Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1992 20:08:29 GMT
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
To: rec.arts.books@julian.uwo.ca

Lauren L. Crawford writes:
>Also, any books you can recommend on the whole subject that aren't
>listed above?  Why do people travel, anyway?  I include living
>overseas for periodis of time here.  And why does the experience
>clarify and improve some individuals, and destroy others?

Many years ago I read _Mrs. Blood_ by Audrey Thomas which is about a
woman who travels to Africa with her husband and I think one child -
she is expecting another child.  Her perceptions are influenced by the
fact that she is ill and she becomes more and more isolated by her
sickness.  I felt absolutely exhausted by the end of the book and know
that it is not to all tastes.

Not a book - but interesting - was a radio broadcast on the CBC a few
weeks ago, probably on the show Writers and Company or something like
it of an interview with George Steiner.  I didn't catch the whole
interview, but did find that he made me think for a long time after
the program was off about travel.  He talked about his family's
experiences prior to and during the war when it became too dangerous
for them to remain in Germany and they managed to escape.  He did not
condone the fact that they, along with so many, were forced to flee,
but he did look at the positive aspects of their move away from
Europe.  He then went on to say that more and more people are finding
themselves having to travel because of political oppression, economic
hardships, etc. and that many of us are going to have to learn to
adjust to new cultures.  A lot of what he said made sense and I plan
to look at some of his works because I would like to know more of what
he has to say generally.  Someone who is familiar with George
Steiner's works might be able to direct you if he has addressed this
theme of travel in an article or a book.  Good luck with your
projects.

Margaret   
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: hhenderson@vax.clarku.edu
Subject: Stormin' Norman (was: Re: She's baaaaack.....Camille Paglia)
Organization: Clark University
Date: 28 SEP 92 15:23:18 GMT

Barbara Hlavin writes:

>Fine.  Camille Paglia is a pompous, dick-waving fathead.
>
>*Norman Mailer* is an intellectual vampire bitch.  (But at least
>he can think his way out of a paper bag, and jesus can he write.)

Well, I don't particularly admire his writing, but maybe that's
because he's always writing about himself, and I don't particularly
admire him.  I admit it's impossible for me to be objective in this
case, because he disgusts me.  Here's a typical Stormin' Norman
adventure:

Norman at cocktail party, approaches Gore Vidal.

        NORMAN:  You look like a dirty old Jew.

        VIDAL (startled): *YOU* look like a dirty old Jew.

        (Norman slugs Vidal.)

Now my point, which you completely missed because you were so eager
to fling epithets about, is that this kind of idiotic, infantile
behavior is acceptable from males.  Likewise, relentless egoism like
Mailer's is acceptable, as a "male" trait.  Norman blunders around
tootling his own horn and getting into drunken altercations (not to
mention marrying several women and stabbing one of them), and the
general opinion is, "Oh, that Norman!  What a wild man!" (affectionate
pat on the head).

Women, on the other hand, are expected to conform to a different
standard.  A woman behaving like Mailer would probably be viewed as
a dangerous lunatic.  For another look at society's double standard,
see Martina Navratilova's apt comments on the Magic Johnson situation.

So, I pay no attention to those who call Paglia "egotistical" and
"narcissistic", except to mourn the fact that certain people who
consider themselves liberated are still mired in the dark ages.

Heather
HHENDERSON@vax.clarku.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: jyc@leo.Stanford.EDU (Jon Corelis)
Subject: Re: She's baaaaack.....Camille Paglia
Organization: DSO, Stanford University
Date: 29 Sep 92 03:19:03 GMT

adolphso@mizar.usc.edu (adolphson) writes:

>| a hatchet job which was not only
>| mean-spirited but hypocritical, since the authors of the books in
>| question (one of whom had died of AIDS shortly before Paglia's article
>| was written and was thus beyond responding to her slurs) both had
>| career-long records of vigorous political activism in the cause of
>| antidiscrimination, whereas for all her pseudopopulist bluster Paglia's
>| own real-world political credentials are, to the best of my knowledge,
>| null.

>I don't know how to read that to mean anything other than this: Paglia's
>review of two books written by classicists about sexuality ancient Greece
>was mean-spirited and hypocritical because Winkler and Halperin were
>involved in political activism in the cause of antidiscrimination whereas
>Paglia has no such political record. 

   Then you don't know how to read.  If you ask people who do, they'll
explain to you that the criticisms being made are (1) that Paglia's
review of these works was motivated by a mean-spirited personal agenda
rather than by an understanding of the scholarly issues involved, and
(2) that it was additionally hypocritical, because she was presenting
herself as a great antiestablishment radical in contradisction to the
upper-middle-class establishment types Winkler and Halperin, whereas the
real-world facts are that the people she was criticizing had
distinguished histories of being engaged in risky political activities
in support of their principles, whereas so far as I've been able to
determine Paglia's involvement in anything that could be called politics
of any sort has been doodlysquat.  

   Geez, I'm getting tired of people claiming that I've said something
idiotic and then demanding an explanation of it.  
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books
From: rsquires@cyclops.eece.unm.edu (Roger Squires)
Subject: Re: Norton Juster
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 92 09:25:37 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

In article <Bv4Gwp.r7@unix.amherst.edu> akcobb@unix.amherst.edu (acapella) writes:
>
>My copy of The Phantom Tollbooth is probably the
>most read book I own...
>
	Well, haven't seen this one, but really enjoyed
	_The Dot and the Line, A Romance in Two Dimensions_:

		"To the vector go the spoils"

>Amy

Roger Squires
rsquires@cyclops.eece.unm.edu
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books