HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Signal to Noise
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 00:09:40 GMT

I'd heard enough good things about "Signal to Noise", by Neil Gaiman
and Dave McKean, to hazard the $11.95.  Now I'm trying to decide what
to make of it.

Death, dying, mortality.  Thumbscratch syndrome:  Creation as a denial
of one's own transience.  The attractions of Armageddon.  It's a big topic,
or constellation of topics, and not one which is easily handled by the
serial narrative form generally used in comics.  StN is closer to being
a montage of images.  The problem, when encountering such a work, is to 
decide whether it's effective, or simply pretentious.

Pages filled with small panels are followed by two-page spreads consisting
of a somewhat abstract painting with a few words.  Here a few hundred copies
of the same eye, some lighter, some darker, and the words "AND I SAW AS IT
WAS A SEA OF GLASS MINGLED WITH FIRE".  Here the Four Horsemen, one per
page, each accompanied by the relevant verse/s from Revelations.  The
message of each such spread is generally one mood, or one image.  I think
fifty pages of small panels would be hard to take -- but are these spreads
pulling their weight?

And the central image:  The inhabitants of a European village, on the
last night of 999 AD, waiting for the world to end.  (Why people thought
that the world would end 999 years after the birth of Christ, rather than
a year later, is something I've never understood.)   Out of 78 physical
pages, this image/story appears on nine.  I'd have liked to see more
on this, but it's not clear what the 'more' might have been.  In a way,
it's a cheat:  *Could* one script a decent movie out of theis raw material,
or is a single powerful image all it has to offer?  What could be added
that wouldn't cheapen that image -- the defiant-lovers subplot, the
redeemed-sinner subplot, the usurer's-comeupance subplot?

Okay, it's definitely not pretention.  "Signal to Noise" works.  It
presents its themes effectively, and leaves one affected and thinking.
This whole is definitely greater than the sum of its parts.  

But, conversely, many of the parts aren't very good.  The fact that a 
change of pace is necessary doesn't mean that a two-page inkblot it the 
best way to achieve it.  That the clock is a powerful symbol of mortality
doesn't mean that half a dozen pages with clocks and clock faces and
clockworks represent the best way to present that image.  Maybe it
is somewhat pretentious, at that:  Powerful and effective sections
alternate with sections in which Gaiman and McKean are trying a bit too
hard to be clever.

It's pretentious *and* it's effective.  It's flawed, but it's still
well worth the cover price.  It'll leave you thinking a lot longer
than any other $12 worth of comics you're likely to have bought in
the past year.

-----
Dani Zweig
dani@netcom.com

   'T is with our judgements as our watches, none
   Go alike, yet each believes his own
		--Alexander Pope
From: morpheus@cco.caltech.edu (Kynn Bartlett)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
Subject: Re: Sandman - Old Gods
Date: 22 Dec 92 15:39:05 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena
NNTP-Posting-Host: globie.caltech.edu

Lance Smith wrote:
> As a side note, I've been meaning to post some of the avatars of
> Death.  Maybe I'll get to it before the High Cost of Living makes
> it out.  None of the standard figures quite fit Gaiman's Death,
> but many are quite interesting.

Make sure to include Nekron and the Black Racer.

Heh.

				--Kynn
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
From: larocqu@gaul.csd.uwo.ca (JOHN LAROCQUE)
Subject: True Believers (Marvel's religious comics)
Organization: Computer Science Dept., Univ. of Western Ontario, London, Canada
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 18:31:59 GMT

This one from the latest Bullpen Bulletins (in the Spirits of Vengeance #7
with the Jumpin'Joe Kubert doing an awesome backup):

"Churchgoers are in or a treat with the arrival of an all-new line of religious
comics. Thomas Nelson Publishing, one of the largets publishers of Christian
inspirational books and adventure fiction, has teamed up with Marvel, the
maker of such books as ST FRANCIS and THE LIFE OF POPE JOHN PAUL II, to 
produce a whole series of titles primarily for the inspirational book market.

(Praise the Lawd...... I continue)

"Marvel will produce the ocmics while Thomas Nelson will distribute them
to religious bookshops all over the world. The first three titles in our 
religious line debut this month. They are

PARAGON, which is a bimonthly 48 page series about a brand new teen superhero
PILGRIM's PROGRESS, a 96 page adaptation of the classic novel
and the X-MAS STORY, a 32 page retelling of the Nativity"

what's next Stan - Fred Hembeck meets God, Groo destoys the biblical universe.
Oh, and for social relevance - Jesus with a blackface - to compete with those
guys at DC.

How about more comics: Muslim Monolith - he destroys evil people and fights 
for Justice and Allah

Maus: Nazi Fighter - by Art Spiegalman and cover by Barry Smith. Nuff said

Hellfire and Brimstone - the Christian fundamentalist team-up book of motor
cycle riding Christian vigilante warriors. Introduction by Jerry Falwell

BornAgain: Man of Guilt - a mainstream preacher bores people to death and
makes badguys sorry for their sins and ask to be bornagain.

Mother Theresa's Comics and Stories - Catholic stories with a modern touch

Krishna: Manowar - by Bart Sears. A vigilante god from the Hindu pantheon
fights for justice EACH AND EVERY MONTH in a special warrior outfit.
Oh, he has six arms.
 
Buddha and the Mu Force - for your meditation every month, absolutely nothing!

-- 
***FEAR*AND*LOATHING**FEAR*AND*LOATHING**FEAR*AND*LOATHING**FEAR*AND*LOATHING**
**  John LaRocque         **   "If you're the new messiah.. I'm going to be  **
**  marshall.law@uwo.ca   **   the one to drive in the nails"  MARSHALL LAW  **
***FEAR*AND*LOATHING**FEAR*AND*LOATHING**FEAR*AND*LOATHING**FEAR*AND*LOATHING**
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
From: rkelly@carina.unm.edu (Robert Kelly)
Subject: Re: Jack "King" Kirby: ripped off by Marvel
Date: Fri, 01 Jan 93 04:33:38 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

The Man in the Polyester Suit writes:
>John LaRocque (4224_5201@uwovax.uwo.ca) wrote:
>
>: companies. Comics = toothpaste = construction work = blow jobs = beer =
>: shit.
>
>You've obviously never had a good blow-job.
>

Hmmmm, why is it that all the family are writing during this season?


Robert Kelly
rkelly@triton.unm.edu
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Did you know the phone company uses the bone marrow
of Third World babies to make microchips?"
        Badger
From: herbertf@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca (Herbert Fung)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
Subject: Re: What is the future status of Booster Gold?
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 92 23:49:20 MST
Organization: Edmonton Remote Systems #3, Edmonton, AB, Canada

Previously Alan Bick wrote:
 
>        1) What is to happen to Booster Gold? Will he stay with the
>league or go into comic limbo until there is sufficient pressure to give
>him a new series or miniseries?
 
Well with JLA #71 it looks like Booster is out of luck. No one can fix
his outfit.
 
 
>        2) I know there has been speculation on the new league (how many
>new leagues have we had in 70 issues? New Year = New League???) but does
>anyone know with some degree of certainty who will be in this league?
 
With the current story arc we have: Guy Gardner, Maxima, The Ray, Agent
Liberty, Black Condor, and Wonder Woman as team leader.
Also we will have Black Canary, Green Arrow and the Atom guest starring
next ish.
 
>        3) (Almost the same question as 2) Are the heroes on the cover
>supposed to be all the new heroes joining the league?
 
Yep.
 
>        I really hope this is not to be the end of Booster Gold. Dan
>Jurgens killed of his series, that was painful. Now he ends to finish
>him off by having him disappear from the JLA? That would finish me!
 
Yeah, I know how you feel. Booster Gold was definately my favourite
character when he first appeared. At least we get to see Skeets again
with this issue of JLA. I wonder what happened to his fins?
 
>        I started reading comics because someone recommended picking up
>Booster Gold. I started reading JL (from issue #1) because Booster Gold
>was joining the team and that is probably why I stayed with the comics
>throughout all it's changes. I liked the humour but I liked BG more! I
>hope I'm mistaken about Dan Jurgens plans because I would have to send
>him a lot of hate mail.
 
I really didn't care for the characerization of Booster in the JLI before
Jurgens, since he started writing JLA I thought he'd revive Booster, but
it seems he is treating him worse. Booster seems like such a shallow
charater now, it's really sad.
 
>       Can someone put my mind at rest (or tell me where I can purchase
>some plastic explosives) .... please!!!
 
I'm not sure if I was able to put your mind to rest but I'm afraid I know
nothing about plastic explosives.
 
>Thanks in advance.
>
>Alan Bick
 
--
Herbert Fung                    | "Hard work doesn't make miracles,
Edmonton Remote Systems         |   Miracles just make hard work!"
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada       |       The Herbster! 1988

Herbert Fung              herbertf@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
From: jdelisle@udel.edu (J. G. Delisle)
Subject: Re: Hulk, Cerebus and other stuff like Barry Allen
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: Boyz from the Dwarf
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1992 00:04:00 GMT

In article <rawdon.725755050@cs.wisc.edu>, rawdon@colby.cs.wisc.edu writes...
>I thought the identity of Juggernaught in the latest Hulk was obvious.  I
>mean, how many red-haired neanderthal-looking men are there in the Marvel
>Universe who can go toe-to-toe wih the Hulk?  (I also have dim recollections
>of the same trick with the Juggernaught being done before; an old X-Men,
>maybe?)

	Right. I think it was something like UXM #183. Colossus broke up with 
Kitty, so Wolverine and Nightcrawler took him out drinking. Unfortunately for
him, Colossus spilled his beer on a very, very large guy with read hair. They
fought, and Colossus got his @$$ kicked (the other two stayed out of the way).

	Joe Delisle

+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| From the terminal of Joe Delisle      |                                    |
| jdelisle@loyola.edu  (preferred)      |    "Home is where the hell is."    |
| jdelisle@cs.loyola.edu                |                                    |
|              "I was up above it, but now I'm down in it"                   |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
From: jamesc@bassclar.Eng.Sun.COM (James Langdell)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
Subject: Re: X-Factor #87 (was Re: Why does PAD *sta
Date: 23 Dec 1992 02:00:26 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
Distribution: world
Reply-To: jamesc@bassclar.Eng.Sun.COM
NNTP-Posting-Host: bassclar

jjfink@skcla.monsanto.com () writes:
>jamesc@bassclar.Eng.Sun.COM (James Langdell) writes:
>
>> Sad to learn the truth about Guido.  It makes his character all the
>> more interesting to see his recognition that there's better ways to
>> live than wallowing in angst.
>
>You bought that line of crap from Guido?
>I figured it for shrinking the shrink.  Guido doesn't seem the type to suddenly
>open up like that.

I took Guido's revelation (of being in constant physical pain) 
at face value here.  Yes, it's unusual for Guido to be so forthcoming
about himself.  However, I recall that some past story about Doc Samson by
Peter David (in a Hulk annual?) made clear it's not as easy as it 
looks for that brilliant green hunk to be who he is.  I figured Guido sensed
this and was willing to confide to the Doc.

If Guido really wanted to play with the shrink's mind, I think he'd 
go on about being raised by space bison, or something like that.

--James Langdell        jamesc@eng.sun.com
  Sun Microsystems      Mountain View, Calif
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
From: larocqu@gaul.csd.uwo.ca (JOHN LAROCQUE)
Subject: Harvey does Ultraman (recommended!)
Organization: Computer Science Dept., Univ. of Western Ontario, London, Canada
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 03:17:52 GMT

Ultraman kicks ass. Yes, Japan's number one superhero is invading North
America. I recently saw some toys of Ultraman on sale at the local drug
store. Way cool. This guy is 20 feet tall (just like the Avenger's Giant
Man) and kicks some serious Japanese monster ass!

Anyways, according to the March catalogue, Harvey comics is doing Ultraman!

Yeah, Harvey - of Richie Rich and Caspar fame, but I continue....

Dwayne McDuffie writes (too many Marvel/DC books to count), Ernie Colon
(Magnus) draws and Canada's Ken Steacy (Doom Force!) does a painted cover!
Too many people miss out on gems like these. I laugh at all of those Harvey
scoffers who missed out on rare Carl Barks Tom&Jerry comic reprints. Ha ha.
And you thought Harvey was all garbage (yes, non-Disney Carl Barks). Ha ha.

Ultraman is a 3 issue miniseries and issue number 1 comes in two formats.
Regular and Gimmmick (with awesome Japanese monster card and special 
poly-bag design). 

Make mine Harvey!
-- 
***FEAR*AND*LOATHING**FEAR*AND*LOATHING**FEAR*AND*LOATHING**FEAR*AND*LOATHING**
**  John LaRocque         **   "If you're the new messiah.. I'm going to be  **
**  marshall.law@uwo.ca   **   the one to drive in the nails"  MARSHALL LAW  **
***FEAR*AND*LOATHING**FEAR*AND*LOATHING**FEAR*AND*LOATHING**FEAR*AND*LOATHING**
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
From: YANJUNA@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu
Subject: Re: "Sunk the Lowest" Award for 1992
Organization: Yale University
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 92 21:43:10 EST

In article <1992Dec28.230449.20573@cs.unca.edu>
mcmahan@cs.unca.edu (Scott McMahan -- Genesis mailing list owner) writes:
 
>
>YANJUNA@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu wrote:
>
>:     Have you all ever noticed that, while the titles most of us buy (I presume
>: "tasteful" readers) has drastically gone down, [I know mine has, from the high
>: of 1986-7], the amount of money we spend on comics has stayed about the same
>: or even gone up?
>
>Really good point... but I'd rather pay $1.95 for one good comic
>by Jim Lee than $1.25 for several bad Marble comics. :) Prices
>have skyrocketed from $0.65 to $1.25 at Marble and Dee See since
>I started reading them full-time, and if oyu want quality
>color and paper that's even more $$$ on top of it. A few stunning
>books like Green Arrow and Cyberforce and the still inchoate
>Wetworks are better than a stack of hack writers and artists.
>
>I think that the creators have wised up in a few short years
>and realized people would support them doing quality
>stuff of their own, not just plunk down the dollars for
>standard Marble garbage. People are putting cash where their
>mouths are and buying better quality books. Also, some people
>are putting money on Marble cash cows too, unfortunately.
>
 
    Of course, at early to mid '80s, the quality of "standard Marvel garbage"
(or standard DC garbage for that matter) was considerably higher.  Not that
there weren't a bunch of clunkers at that time, but rather the ratio      of
really great books over all books published (or hell, the ratio      of
competent or better books over all books published) were a lot higher then.
Furthermore, the REAL cost [i.e. net of inflation; price relative to other
goods] were lower!
 
   While I agree that I'd rather plunk down $2.25 for Cerebus than $1.25
for Superman, when a creator moves from doing a $1.25 book to $2.50 book,
he should do BETTER work.  With some exceptions (because I think I'm getting
considerably more value for my money; the only example that really comes
to mind is Sandman), if I'm going to pay premium for an artist or a writer
(say Jim Lee, though I don't particularly like him all that much) because
he moved from Marvel $1.25 book to an independent $1.95 book; I expect him
to do BETTER work because I am putting down more money for his work; and/or
his ratio of clunkers should fall drastically.  In most cases, it makes very
little sense to pay an extra premium for the same quality of work which I
used to be able to buy for cheaper.
 
   I am, however, happy to see that many artists/writers HAVE recognized this;
Byrne in his _Next Men_ and Sim in _Cerebus_, and from what I can gather,
McFarland on _Spawn_, have stated that, due to their higher price, they try
to put more effort on their "premium" books to justify the higher price.
Now, if only DC, Marvel, and even most independents catch on to it...
   Junsok Yang
 
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
From: lsmith@deci.cs.umn.edu (Lance "Squiddie" Smith)
Subject: Re: Swamp Thing #128
Organization: Needy Squids of the Poor
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 05:16:29 GMT

In <C06ztp.AE3@cmcl2.nyu.edu> silbrmnd@acf3.nyu.edu (Darkmage) writes:

>dani@netcom.com (Dani Zweig) writes:

>>Okay, I give up.  I know when I'm licked.  I'm dropping Swamp Thing.
>>The Nancy Collins run shows no signs that it's going to become worth
>>reading on more than an odd-issue basis.  The villains continue to
>>be one-dimensional, the plots continue to be rehashes, and the story
>>still has no discernible long-term direction.

>One dimensional??  Didn't you see who he was fighting?  It was Stimpy!
>Proteus, page 8 panel 5: "Happy!  Happy!!"
>	 page 9,panel 2: "J--  HUH?"
>That was *definitely* the beginning of a Joy Joy!  :)  Our so-called
>Hero is fighting america's favorite, yuckiest cat!  :)  Now isn't that
>worthyour $1.75?

Probably not. 

The comment about Doctor Tetrahedron (whatever) from John Constantine helped.

The only reason I'm coming back for another issue is the fake newsprint
on the newspaper in the final page. 

The promise of Tefe's "pets" turning nasty also has a certain charm to it,
but I'm not sure if I can wait that long.

-----------------------------
  Lance "Cr2O3.2H2O" Smith  | "You have been a worthy opponent, but you have
     (lsmith@cs.umn.edu)    |  interfered with my plans once too often. You
 There's nothing that can't |  must now face the trial by Xung Pao Chicken!"
   be looked up somewhere   |                    _Mr Peanut meets Fu Manchu_
From: ddl1542@hertz.njit.edu (Derek Lee!)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
Subject: Re: SUPERMAN:  No new life in sight.
Date: 29 Dec 92 04:41:28 GMT
Organization: New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, N.J.


	According to the latest CVM, Superman is coming back in Adventures 
of Superman #500 in April 1993. Ick.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
From: stailey@bugs.comm.mot.com (Mike Stailey)
Subject: A potential problem
Reply-To: stailey@comm.mot.com
Organization: Motorola LMPS Research, Schaumburg, IL
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1992 10:51:36 GMT


Coming back from the holidays after a few days off, I expected
to find a ton of articles waiting for me. Unfortunately, I found
only 3. The last article in the file was #9372 "Re: Favorite Artists".

Is there something screwy going on with the new service or is it
just our site that is having a problem. Any help would be appreciated.

--
Michael                      
stailey@comm.mot.com     


Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
From: jml12@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Jonathan M Lennox)
Subject: Re: SANDMAN:Lucien's Library
Reply-To: jml12@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Jonathan M Lennox)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1992 08:13:38 GMT

In article <8248@news.duke.edu> eja@carr3.acpub.duke.edu (Eric Akawie) writes:
>What books do YOU want to read out of Lucien's Library.  Let's assume
>he's got a comic book section and an AV department too.

Let's see...

  W. A. Mozart: the complete works, 1791-18xx (on CD and in printed scores)
     including the oratorios and the sequel to The Magic Flute

  S. Morgenstern:  THE PRINCESS BRIDE (unabriged version)
     both the English translation and the original Florinese

And if we allow works which were actually written, but lost:

  The Library of Alexandria:  the complete collection
     burnt by the Romans, the Christians, the Moslems...

  J. S. Bach:  the hundred lost cantatas and the St. Mark's Passion
     sold to parties unknown by his alcoholic son in the late 18th
     century

That would keep me pretty happy for a while...

--
Jonathan Lennox
jml12@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu
From: intruder@cats.ucsc.edu (Isaac N. Truder)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
Subject: Re: Jack "King" Kirby: ripped off by Marvel
Date: 23 Dec 1992 09:03:30 GMT
Organization: University of California; Santa Cruz
NNTP-Posting-Host: am.ucsc.edu


 >      These creators have a REAL case against the corporate men who
 > run comic books. When they started, there weren't the lawyers
 > there were today. And with a good lawyer of their own, they could
 > have made a serious challenge to the corporate companies over the
 > legal status of the characters that they created. Nothing was ever
 > cut in stone then, not until Jerry and Joe got their pension and
 > Jack got his art. A truly sad episode in comics history.

Of course, nowadays they HAVE signed the contracts, all the legal
documents are in place.  They do NOT have a case against the comic book
companies.  The courts are only empowered to invalidate a contract in
cases where the contract itself is illegal, or breaks some law -- for
instance, any contract in which one or more parties signs away their
Constitutional rights is automatically void and invalid.  Marvel
considered Kirby's pages to be its property and not Kirby's.  So, legal
goings-on were held, an agreement was arrived at, and Kirby made the
agreement to give them legal documents that stated the characters that
"he created FOR THEM" (my emphasis) were their property.  And his pages
were his property.  Case closed.

You do have enthusiasm for your causes, I'll give you that, but I don't
think Kirby's own soapboxes are stacked as high as yours at this point
-- and he knows a hell of a lot more of the facts than do you after
reading a paragraph in a comics collectors' magazine.
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
From: panda@Micor.OCUnix.on.ca (Elizabeth Holden)
Subject: Re: Clone Stories (Re: "Sunk the Lowest" Award for 1992)
Organization: M.B. Cormier INC.
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 92 07:44:03 EST

jacob@tcs.com (Jacob Butcher) writes:

> [Obligatory flame: I finally dropped the LSH when they blew up the Earth,
> after 20 years of following the book.  I feel old.]

...You will wear the cuffs of your trousers rolled.... sorry, a little 
train of thought there....

So why drop LSH with the destruction of Earth?  Was your objection 
artistic or was it a principle?  (I.e., did you think it was badly done, 
or did you think it shouldn't have been done at all?)  I loved this, 
myself.

> 	The Gwen Stacy clone story from Amazing Spider-Man 140ish.  The first
> 		significant clone-as-returns-from-dead story, as far as I
> 		know, and well handled.  The clone didn't remember the last
> 		few months of her life, couldn't really replace the dead
> 		original, and exited stage left once everything was explained,
> 		since she didn't want to deal with anyone who'd know her
> 		before her originator's death.

Surely you jest.  I remember that as the lowest point to which the 
Spider-Man series ever sunk.  

> 
> Frankly, the LSH clone plot is not a bad one, although it is not really
> appropriate to the book, since it pushes the story in all sorts of wrong
> directions.  And, of course, the Bierbaums have done their usual stellar

What do you think these "wrong directions" are?  Why?

> job of botching what potential the idea had.
> 
So what should they have done?

In a few months you'll probably find it better, when the clones go off in 
their own book and there's a separate series for each Legion.

Namaste,
Elizabeth
From: herbertf@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca (Herbert Fung)
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc
Subject: Has anyone seen the last issue of the Comet?
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 92 20:57:30 MST
Organization: Edmonton Remote Systems #3, Edmonton, AB, Canada

Like the header says. I haven't seen it nor can any local comic dealers 
tell me anything. 

Herbert Fung              herbertf@ersys.edmonton.ab.ca