HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu (Eric Rescorla)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: Rescorla for himself.
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 23:47:32 GMT

In article <pjuhvm4@zola.esd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.esd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
>In article <1992Sep8.170112.12953@blaze.cs.jhu.edu>, arromdee@jyusenkyou.cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes:
>|> 
>|> Obviously, Eric would believe that it would be wrong behavior; just not that
>|> it's wrong because of the Golden Rule.  Eric's not saying it'd not be wrong
>|> _at_all_, just disagreeing with one particular reason.
>
>Sure, and he's wrong.   Consider two people:
>
>Person A says:
>
>    "If I were Gay, I would want them to coerce me to be straight,
>    so the Golden Rule allows me to coerce you."
>
>Person B says:
>
>    "I want the freedom to say in which areas of my life I would
>    be willing to accept coercion, so you should have the same 
>    freedom."
>
>Person B actually is applying the Golden Rule.   He's doing to
>you what he would wish you to do to him, namely allowing you 
>the same freedoms he wants for himself.
>
>This is not what person A is doing.  Person A is claiming that
>somehow the choices he makes in his life should determine the
>choices you are allowed to make in your life.
This is total garbage. What Person A is doing is precisely analogous
to what person B is doing. You're just arbitrarily picking and
choosing what interpretations you'll accept.

-Ekr






-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Rescorla, DoD#431 (Nighthawk S)              rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu
Former chemist now CM400 mechanic                 ekr@eitech.com(preferred)
                       I will hack Unix for food.
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: wall@spdc.ti.com (Raj Wall)
Subject: Florida Sea Base
Summary: Any Andrew damage?
Organization: TI's Risible Technology Branch, Dallas
Distribution: usa
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 14:48:54 GMT

Has anyone any news of how well the Florida Sea Base High Adventure
Camp weathered Hurricane Andrew?  [We were there this summer and loved
it --- highly recommended.]  Couldn't tell from newsreports how far
south into the Keys the damage went.

Regards,
Raj
wall@csc.ti.com

"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not
 be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."
					9th Amendment, U.S. Constitution

Newsgroups: rec.scouting,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.discrimination
From: mccalley@rtsg.mot.com (Phil McCalley)
Subject: Re: Net.Citizen.Arrest Of Net.Citizen Attempted
Organization: Motorola Inc., Cellular Infrastructure Group
Distribution: rec
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1992 18:20:51 GMT

bwilliam@iat.holonet.net (Bill Williams) writes:

>I wouldn't be surprised to learn that out of the TOTAL NUMBER OF TERABYTES
>OF PACKETS that travel over the internet backbone each month under 2% is
>devoted towards newsgroup forwarding.

>And since several services (such as Holonet) cost $2 per hour at 14,400
>baud total, and you could do a lot of posting in an hour the total cost IN
>REAL DOLLARS for a single post, when prepared offline for downloading, is
>less than ONE CENT per post PER MACHINE.

>so if 20,000 people are totally offended by your post and are all end
>recipients and have to delete it for just their sake, you have AT THE MOST
>EXTREME caused $200 damage to the entire UseNet.

>It is nice to keep cross posting to a minimum, but the software I am using
>RIGHT NOW (TIN) does not seem to be able to edit it at all, even if I was
>trying to be kind and alert, myself.

>screw the christian (I'll bet) censors. Use all the bandwidth you want,
           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>we'll make more.


>Bill Williams

Nope, definately not Christians (just ask Karen).  Here is a hint:  For 
$400 and the daily double, God destroyed two cities for this type of 
behavior...  Correct!  Now for $500, and the end of the game:  The 
legendary lizard who gets smoked by Charles Barkley and his Nike gym 
shoes... 
-- 
....................................................... Phil McCalley

Disclaimer:  I speak for myself and anyone who agrees with me.
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: livesey@solntze.esd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: sgi
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 92 00:40:33 GMT

In article <1992Sep7.154140.22115@cs.yale.edu>, rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu (Eric Rescorla) writes:
|> In article <1992Sep6.022528.22499@hilbert.cyprs.rain.com> max@hilbert.cyprs.rain.com (Max Webb) writes:
|> 
|> >Bigotry doesn't treat others as people, with all their complexity, but
|> >as cartoon bad guys. The inference about the immorality of bigotry follows
|> >straight away.
|>
|> No, you have a hidden assumption, which is that people wish to be
|> treated more or less as you do. If I wish that people not treat me
|> equally well, but "help" me (I.e. try to make me straight) if I am
|> gay, then I would naturally treat others in the same way.

Surely even Mr Rescorla can see the fallacy in his own argument.

I can just about imagine someone, unable to come to terms 
with their own sexual identity, wishing for 'help'.    However, 
I cannot imagine someone who wishes for 'help' wanting that
'help' to come from just anyone who cares to interfere, no 
matter how unqualified or malicious that person might be.

So it's not just 'help' period, that such a person is asking 
for, and their desire to be helped is not an open invitation 
for any passing idiot or bigot to interfere in their life
uninvited.

Mr Rescorla should keep his 'help' for people who ask for
it specifically.  He certainly should not assume that his
own lack of discrimination is shared by everyone else.

jon.


Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: newcomb@pops.navo.navy.mil (Don Newcomb)
Subject: Re: Okay, rec.scouting split - I'll help
Summary: My KILL file has been working just fine.
Keywords: policy wisdom methods hate discontent flames etc
Reply-To: newcomb@pops.navo.navy.mil (Don Newcomb)
Organization: Naval Oceanographic Office
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 15:36:00 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host-[nntpd-13403]: pops.navo.navy.mil

In article <1476@frackit.UUCP> daveh@frackit.UUCP (Dave Hultberg) writes:
>IMHO it isn't the subject that a lot of us disagree with, but in the
>unscoutlike language and tone it is posted in.  I would like to be able
>to have my Cub Scouts talk to Scouts in other states and countries, but
>the profanity and name calling that goes on here makes that impossible. 

This  is probably the best argument for splitting the group.

>I am perfectly willing to have either side try to persuade the other or
>me with rational arguments.  Profanity and name calling is
>inappropriate, poor debating practice and not in keeping with the Scout
>Law that the posters profess to practice.  

I think _some_ posters have no interest in scouting at all.

>I don't think that splitting rec.scouting would work unless the
>non-policy group is moderated.  If it isn't all of the current flames
>will just be cross-posted to one more group.  

An obvious truism. I would like to say one good thing about the people
who have been arguing BSA policy, they have not yet engaged in some of
the more odious Usenet tricks designed to defeat KILL files (e.g. subject
hijacking, bogus subject lines, multiple accounts etc). For this I
am thankful. For the last couple of months my KILL file has been neatly
excising a large fraction  of the traffic on rec.scouting. What is
left has been quite pleasant. I would like to encourage everyone to
study up on the care and feeding of KILL files. Dave, you can even
delete any article that contains any words from a list, anywhere
in the article. Very handy, that!

*******************************************************************
* Donald R. Newcomb                * Views expressed are strictly *
* Naval Oceanographic Office       * those of the author. Mention *
* Stennis Space Center, MS 39522   * of commercial products or    *
* newcomb@navo.navy.mil            * organizations in no way      *
* Phone (601) 688-5998             * constitutes an endorsement.  *
*******************************************************************
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: anthropo@carina.unm.edu (Dominick V. Zurlo)
Subject: Re: Current Batch of Uniforms
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 92 21:00:10 GMT
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

In article <1992Sep11.182413.8632@ticipa.pac.sc.ti.com> jmcc@ticipa.pac.sc.ti.com (John McCollum) writes:
>In article <1992Sep10.213059.8681@iplmail.orl.mmc.com> mwilson@orl.mmc.com writes:
>>Is it just me? Is there someone else out there who thinks that the current 
>>(BSA) uniform shorts are cut too short? I've had complaints from mothers and 
>>boys in my troop. It's hard to encourage complete uniforms when a part of it 
>>makes people uncomfortable.
>>
>>While we're at it. What ever happened to the garters for the knee socks. It
>>seems that they still can't make the socks so they can stay up on their own.
>>Even if they wanted to do away with the flashes, they could have kept the
>>garters and do away with the sock tug of war (the socks always win).
>>
>>PS: The long pants are not an option for a summer (March to November) in
>>the heart of Florida with 80-90 degree days and 90-100 percent humidity.
>>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Mark Wilson 
>>Eagle Class of 1974
>>SM, Troop 565, Deltona, FL
>>
>  Mark, are you really able to get your scouts to keep their socks pulled
>up?  Here in Texas, the current fad is to push the sock down to the ankles.
>Our boys wouldn't be caught dead with them pulled all the way to the knees.
>
>John McCollum
>ASM Troop 895
>Circle Ten Council
>Richardson, Tx
>
Well, I always had the same problem with the shorts.  
As far as the socks go, get some garters from the Girl Scouts, and 
use them under the fold of red material on the BSA socks.  
For keeping them pulled up, kids will be kids.  Let them have them at 
ankles when doing things, and have them pull them up for formations, 
meetings, etc...  At Resica Falls (when I worked there) we would 
purposely run up to people making announcements in the dining hall 
and push their socks to their ankles.  It was a funny little joke, 
and now, wham... everyone wears them that way (or they're a geek).
it's a phase, it too shall pass.
Dominick Zurlo
Eagle Scout


Xref: sparky rec.scouting:3025 alt.discrimination:4327 chi.general:1101 alt.atheism:17033 alt.politics.homosexuality:5909
From: awerling@nmsu.edu (WERLING)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Date: 11 Sep 92 19:48:05 GMT
	<BuAA0t.3vI@acsu.buffalo.edu> <1992Sep8.235056.10764@cs.yale.edu>
Distribution: usa
Organization: NMSU Computer Science

In article <1992Sep8.235056.10764@cs.yale.edu> rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu (Eric Rescorla) writes:

-   In article <BuAA0t.3vI@acsu.buffalo.edu> omhoward@acsu.buffalo.edu (The God-Bitch Emperor of Snuggle Bunnies) writes:
-   >In <1992Sep8.225955.10215@cs.yale.edu> rescorla@rtnmr.chem.yale.edu (Eric Rescorla) writes:
-  >
-  >>Suppose he really IS going to hell. Is it immoral to tell him
-  >>the truth?
-  >
-  >    He can say all he wants to...  It's what he *does* and what
-  >fundies are *doing* that I object to.  You can talk to you're blue in
-  >the face, just to *make* me listen to it.
 
-  I believe that Mr. Werling was asserting something different.

My assertion: leave kids alone.  Don't make them more confused than
they already are.  You wanna try to convert them to your cult, at
least have the decency to wait until the kid's in his thirties.

-   I have asked Mr. Werling to back up his assertion twice now. He
-   just keeps repeating himself. You should feel free to back it
-   up for him. I have yet to see ANYONE do so.
 
You can continue to, without supporting the claim, state that I fail
to back up my assertions.  Show me the logical flaws and I'll respond
to them.  Just saying that I'm repeating myself without further
explanation just makes you look like someone without a real argument
to fall back on.

--
Andrew Werling    awerling@nmsu.edu    yip@acca.nmsu.edu
"Jesus is coming, look busy."
          --from a button I bought in an Albuquerque bookstore.
Xref: sparky rec.scouting:2852 alt.discrimination:4141 chi.general:986 alt.atheism:16623 alt.politics.homosexuality:5711
From: mycroft@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Charles Hannum)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Date: 6 Sep 92 16:20:14 GMT
Article-I.D.: mintaka.1992Sep6.162014.7550
Organization: /etc/organization


In article <AWERLING.92Sep3150951@dante.nmsu.edu> awerling@nmsu.edu
(WERLING) writes:
>
> In article <1992Aug28.094716.13262@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu>
> mycroft@hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Charles Hannum) writes:
>
>> In article <1992Aug25.193235.8584@ctr.columbia.edu>
>> StarWatcher@uiuc.edu writes:
>>>
>>> Even though it may be within BSA's rights to do so, I consider
>>> their dismissing gay or bi scout leaders reprehensible since it is
>>> discrimination based upon a person's private life.
>>
>> If you found out that, in the privacy of my home, I bite off the
>> heads of chickens, would you not change your opinion of me?
>
> Yo!  How is being gay parallel to biting the heads off of chickens?

I *never* said it was.  The fallacy in "StarWatcher"'s argument is that
people do not ignore what one does "in the privacy of their home".

-- 
 \   Charles Hannum, mycroft@ai.mit.edu
 /\  White heterosexual atheist male (WHAM) pride!
From: kati@glnserv.UUCP (Lady Dragon)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Girl Scout story, continued
Date: Sat, 05 Sep 92 05:47:24 CDT
Organization: Vermi-net, Houston, Tx. 77098

I would like to thank those of you whom emailed me advice on how to deal
with the leader I was with. Mostly it seem to follow that I should either
take the girls who had been disaffected and start a new troop, or find
another troop willing to take us in. I chose the second path as I have
only been a co-leader for 1 year, and due to the circumstances, I was
unable to learn more than the basics on how a troop should be run.

Anyway, I called up our Service Unit (Neighborhood) Registrar and she gave
me the names of some troop leaders at various schools in the area. The
first one I called was ready to make me the new leader of her group of 5
4th grade girls. Even though they aren't many, I said I would think about
it. I still wasn't sure that I'm ready to be a leader yet. She
mentioned that she was leaving the position as leader and if she couldn't
get someone else, it would have to be disbanded.

The second leader I called sounds perfect. She wants me to learn all I
can, and sounds like she needs my help as they had 27 girls last year,
with 3 leaders. She is also wants to have both a parents meeting and a
girls meeting so that they can plan what they'd like to do, instead of us
just telling them. And if the group of 5 from the other troop wants to and
we have enough room for them, they too can join if they want.



* * email address: nuchat!xcluud!glnserv!kati * Houston, Texas, USA, Earth * *




Xref: sparky rec.scouting:3043 chi.general:1110 alt.atheism:17091 alt.politics.homosexuality:5929 alt.discrimination:4344
From: johnchad@triton.unm.edu (jchadwic)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.discrimination
Subject: Those wacky fundies at Fiesta!
Date: 12 Sep 92 19:07:11 GMT
Distribution: rec
Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque

Well, there is good news in New Mexico, the heathen outnumbered the anal
retentive evangelicals 1000 to 1 Friday night in Santa Fe.

I managed to make it to the Santa Fe Fiestas for the burning of
Zozobra (old man gloom) and the opening day of the Fiesta weekend.
There were between 30,000 and 40,000 people who attended the burning
of Zozobra and, judging from the people who were dancing and laughing
I would think it safe to say most were having a good time.

After the burning most of the crowd walked the 1/2 mile back to the
plaza. Along the main route back there was a group of about 30-40
evangelicals urging all who were having a great time to "Repent Now!"

It is good to see that the evangelical element in town was unable to
keep people from having a good time. The burning of Zozobra has been a
tradition in Santa Fe for more than 60 years. Zozobra, a rather large
and ugly fellow who basically moans while people have a good time, was
designed by a Santa Fe artist and is used to help kick off the Fiestas 
weekend. The event, by the way, is sponsored by that "godless" group, the
Kiwanis. (sarcasm off after the last sentence).

Anyway, I wanted to share this with the group. I find it absurd that people
waste so much energy trying to keep other people from enjoying life and
having a good time. I was also very happy to know that, while this group
of evangelicals were allowed to voice their opinions, they are unable to
stop a wonderful community tradition.

Viva Free Speech!
Viva Freedom of Religion (and freedom from religion)!
Viva Fiesta!

--john chadwick
From: mgodbout@necis.UUCP (Marc Godbout)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
Subject: Boards of Review
Date: 11 Sep 92 15:56:47 GMT
Organization: NEC Information Systems, Acton, MA

I've been told that when participating in a board of review, the reviewers
should not spend any time grilling the scout on scout knowledge, but should
more or less talk to him about his plans and goals.  I was wondering what other
troops do.  What do you think the board of review is supposed to accomplish?
Should we be preparing the scout for the Eagle board of review (whatever that
is)?  How do you decide if the scout is ready or not for advancement?
Thanks for any help you may have.
Newsgroups: rec.scouting
From: pnsf01dw@UMASSD.EDU
Subject: Re: Boards of Review
Reply-To: pnsf01dw@UMASSD.EDU
Organization: UMASS DARTMOUTH, NO. DARTMOUTH, MA.
Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1992 20:36:26 GMT

In article <1709@necis.UUCP>, mgodbout@necis.UUCP (Marc Godbout) writes:
>I've been told that when participating in a board of review, the reviewers
>should not spend any time grilling the scout on scout knowledge, but should
>more or less talk to him about his plans and goals.  I was wondering what other
>troops do.  What do you think the board of review is supposed to accomplish?
>Should we be preparing the scout for the Eagle board of review (whatever that
>is)?  How do you decide if the scout is ready or not for advancement?
>Thanks for any help you may have.

Technically (or at least according to my district's advancement committee at
every b.o.r. I've sat in on for the past four years), the board of review
process up to and including first class nearly always consists of reviews of
Scouting knowledge. The Scoutmaster's review for the boy usually discusses the
boys plans and goals, although they may also be a subject of discussion at the
b.o.r. itself.

For Star, Life, and Eagle, though, the Board is supposed to focus on the
"visible growth" of the boy more than Scouting skills, with a significant amount
of importantce placed on troop leadership, service projects, out-of-Scouting
activities, and (gasp!) maturity. In fact, I've been instructed at one board to
not ask questions pertaining to merit badges at all (although this is certainly
NOT the common case). Most of the time, the boards do ask some simple questions 
pertaining to the merit badges the boy is using for THAT rank (badges used for
previous ranks are almost always ignored, except at the Eagle board itself.)
Supposedly, we're to assume that the counselor knew what he/she was doing when
he/she signed the blue card for the badge.

And, of course, questions have to stick to whats actually printed in the current
handbook. 

Dennis Wilkinson, SM T46 New Bedford Massachusetts

(of course, now that I've taken over as Scoutmaster, I can't sit on boards
anymore....)

Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
From: awerling@nmsu.edu (WERLING)
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Organization: NMSU Computer Science
	<1992Aug29.145536.3961@cbnewsl.cb.att.com> <+vhntkg@lynx.unm.edu>
	<hill.715369256@galena12> <1992Sep1.221719.9867@rtsg.mot.com>
	<hill.715462676@galena12> <1992Sep3.161048.24517@rtsg.mot.com>
	<hill.715545655@galena12>
Distribution: usa
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1992 00:38:57 GMT

In article <hill.715545655@galena12> hill@rtsg.mot.com (Karen Hill) writes:

- On the other side of the coin, I'd like see quantitative analysis that
- proves that it is not a learned behavior. There are lots of influences in
- our society.  If anyone with low self-esteem and low self-worth manages to
- find a person or group that will make him feel important and powerful, that
- person will gravitate toward the other person or group and tend to follow
- those practices that raise his ense of worth in the eyes of the others.

Karen Hill, this person here, is the one who has been espousing the
doctrine of "choice" (along) with Stan-Boy up there....without
providing evidence.

More importantly, neither one of these people (?) have proven that
*even*if*it's*a*choice* there's anything WRONG about what we have "chosen."

- I'm not judging anyone. I'm saying that everyone should be treated with
- justice and dignity based on their humanity and nothing else. 

Yeah.  "Based on their humanity"?  Could you possibly get more vague
on us?  What do you mean by that?

--
Andrew Werling   awerling@nmsu.edu   yip@rever.nmsu.edu
"Jesus is coming, look busy."
          --from a button I bought in an Albuquerque bookstore.
Xref: sparky rec.scouting:2943 alt.discrimination:4234 chi.general:1054 alt.atheism:16800 alt.politics.homosexuality:5821
From: livesey@solntze.esd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey)
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,chi.general,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: BofA and UW can now support discrimination against blacks and Jews
Date: 9 Sep 92 00:23:38 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: sgi

In article <AWERLING.92Sep8161138@dante.nmsu.edu>, awerling@nmsu.edu (WERLING) writes:
|> Yes, still crossposted to rec.scouting, because some rec.scouting
|> readers have no idea how they are hurting their children.
|> 
|> In article <pink1ec@zola.esd.sgi.com> livesey@solntze.esd.sgi.com (Jon Livesey) writes:
|> 
|> -   I can just about imagine someone, unable to come to terms 
|> -   with their own sexual identity, wishing for 'help'.    However, 
|> -   I cannot imagine someone who wishes for 'help' wanting that
|> -   'help' to come from just anyone who cares to interfere, no 
|> -   matter how unqualified or malicious that person might be.
|> 
|> Thinking back to my own past, the help I would have wanted would have
|> been some affirmation that being gay was okay (wow...a scoutmaster
|> even), that it was normal, that one could live a gay life and not be
|> on the brink of suicide all of one's life.

I completely agree.   You - and I - would want the freedom to
say what kind of help it is you would want, and when you would
want it.

I expect we would both grant other people that same freedom.

jon.
Newsgroups: rec.scouting,alt.discrimination,alt.atheism,alt.politics.homosexuality