From: johniac@austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti/100000)
Subject: Re: Football Failures at Bowie Force end of Season
Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 18:14:40 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: IBM Advanced Workstations and Systems, Austin, TX
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David L. Cathey (davidc@montagar.com) wrote:
:                                           Remember John, even your kids are
: learning how to bribe the teacher and cheat.  Nice.  I guess that is the
: only way you believe that football players can get good grades.

No, I'm saying that they only way they can play football is to pass unrelated
classes, AND they don't give a hoot about the unrelated classes, then they will
find a way to pass, and it probably won't be the way you want.

: 	Does that mean that the football player doesn't have to show up for
: practice if he doesn't want as well?

Of course.  And if he doesn't, they kick him off the team.  Wouldn't it be
absurd if they punished him instead by forbidding him from going to math class?
If you really want to learn math, you should be willing to work a little harder
at playing football.  Call it incentive.

: 	You want the student to get what he wants, without doing anything to
: earn it.  That is also an ethic.  One you seem to believe in.

You don't have to "earn" liberty in this country.  It's a given.

: 	Sure, just treat them like dogs...  Gee, John, your treatment of people
: can sure be inconsistent...

If nobody else cares about the dead body of a burglar in your house, I see
nothing wrong with recouping the expense of removing it.  It's not like you
invited him in.

: 	Right and wrong.  We learn through experience.  We are setting up
: artificial risks that will not seriously harm those that take the wrong one. 
: There are chances to go back recover quickly.  They learn by succeeding or
: failing how to manage and recover from risk.  If they fail a test, the grade
: can be brought back up through short term effort. 

I'm not saying it's a bad idea to minimize the effects of choices that children
make.  I don't think it's the responsibility of the state, but rather the 
child's parents, or the child himself.

: 	You want to provide short-term comfort without any risk.

Of course there's a risk, it's just not the one that you're inventing.  Suppose
I don't approve of you eating red meat, because you are very likely to get heart
disease a few years down the road?  How about if I come over to your house with
a rubber mallet and whack you on the head with it whenever you start to eat
meat?  A headache is certainly less painful than a heart attack.  After all,
we might have to pay for your quadruple-bypass with public money.  Nothing
wrong with a little short-term incentive is there?

: 	Besides, no-pass/no-play is not negative reinforcement, but positive
: reinforcement. If you practice hard, you get to stay on the team.  If you
: can run fast, you can stay on the team.  If you play a position better than
: anyone else can, you can stay on the team.  If you study in class, you can stay 
: on the team.  If you show up to practice, you can stay on the team.  If you
: learn your plays, you can stay on the team.  Why does John only have a problem
: with one of these?

Because it's the only "one" that has nothing to do with playing football.

: 	Sorry it's so long, but John really doesn't seem to give a shit about
: these people (like he claims to),

I care about them enough to let them make their own choices about their own 
lives.

: and really doesn't understand how the system works.

I understand how the system works:  The system is screwed.  To do <X> for a
living it should only matter how well you do <X>.  If colleges institute 
football majors, then fine.  But I see no reason to have this academic charade
in place.

--
John Iacoletti       IBM AWS Austin       Internet: johniac@austin.ibm.com
        My opinions do not reflect the views of the IBM Corporation
    "Egad, a base tone denotes a bad age" -- TMBG   "I Palindrome I"