From: 21010JIS@MSU
Newsgroups: alt.messianic
Subject: Re: Humanism (personal experience)
Date: 16 Nov 92 22:48:17 GMT
Organization: Michigan State University

Advance Warning: My text editor doesn't seem to cooperate as nicely on
UseNet as it does for regular e-mail. My newest comments start with JS.

|> Re Rob's question of humanism vs. mysticism, there are obviously
|> different brands of humanism floating around. Off the top of my head,
|> I'd suggest these distinctions: 1) pantheistic humanism- you really
|> believe in gods, goddesses, mother earth, etc. and man is one of the
|> forces/gods himself; 2) chance humanism- we're all protoplasm, therefore
|> all values are relative and internally defined; 3) I'm not sure of
|> a word for this; homotheistic? anthromorphic? but anyway, man as god;
|> 4) theistic humanism- the earth was made by God for man- we are the stewards
|> of creation.

But it seems you're confusing the discussion by broadening
the term "humanism" to mean "everything Christians don't like".
If your definition can't distinguish the Druids from Paul Kurtz,
it's probably not very useful.

JS: Actually I think I was just codifying and clarifying existing
definitions as opposed to creating my own. The term is used in
different ways, and I think 4 clear definitions would be superior
to 1 confusing one. I wouldn't call them all humanism, but I think
all are called humanism by someone.

[story of weirdo "motivational seminars" deleted]

JS: You didn't respond to the main point, which is that these
courses in the Defense Department and the Public Schools were government
sponsored and paid for by all our tax dollars. You agreed previously
that they were "very bad"; now I've presented you with evidence that
the "very bad" a) has occultic content, and b) is imposed/presented
by the government.
|>
|> Among other things, we paired up with people and told the other person to
|> descibe someone we were thinking of, a room in our home, etc. I told
|> someone to describe my girlfriend. They did to a tee, *including the
|> fact that she had a disclocated left knee*. They described her
|> appearence, everything, and I hadn't mentioned a word of her. I also
|>
|> So, what do we have here? The Torah is very clear. I was engaging in
|> divination and witchcraft. It was real 3000 years ago and it's real now.
|> Thanks be to G-d that He paid the penalty for my sin.
|>
You were the victim of a charlatan's tricks.

JS: 1. The person giving me the info on my girlfriend was another paying
       attendee. A plant, you say..? then explain
    2. I didn't mention my girlfriend because she was in Bowling Green,
       I was in Cleveland, and since our relationship wasn't great, I
       was looking to meet someone else (my manners have improved somewhat
       since then, Praise G-d). They had *no* way of knowing anything
       about her. The first time I mentioned her was when the 20some of
       us paired off 2x2. BTW, the other pairs had similar results.

JS: I'm perfectly willing to consider an alternative explanation. Care to
provide one? :-).

|> Rob, if you can accept the reality of witchcraft today.... I lost my
|> best friend of ten years in 1989 when I stopped to see her and her
|> beau in Pittsburgh on the way to the Messianic Jewish Messiah conference
|> and found out that she was a neo-pagen witch. I *saw* witchcraft

By the way, what do you mean you "lost your best friend"?
If you really mean she died, I'm very sorry.  But if
you mean you cut off your friendship, I don't understand.
I don't post in this group that my wife "lost her brother
and sister" (they converted to Christianity).  Do you
believe in sitting shiva for Jews who convert to paganism
while condemning Jews who sit shiva for relatives who
convert to Christianity?

JS: Semantic confusion. We argued. The issue wasn't her beliefs but
lack of candor. He felt very threatened by me knowing (I discovered
everything by accident; she was detained by flu in another city,
her beau put me up for the night in her sewing room with all the stuff
lying out in the open; she had intended to hide it all before I got
there).

JS: You questioned what this all had to do with humanism. I suggest:

1. We are using different definitions. Please note that if my
definition is well formed and has meaningful content, it is
just as valid as yours. I did state that all of these definitions
are in use by people, and all have a common thread of humans
being central in importance.

2. I contend that any tenets based on many having ultimate/godlike
powers is a religion, called "humanism" in contrast to "theism"
(both your brand and mine). Thus these teachings of "man as god"
are humanistic. This is a part of what I consider humanism to be.

3. Whether partially or in toto, by chance or by intent, small
scale or large scale, these teachings are being promulgated today
*using tax dollars*. That's illegal (as well as repressive to all of us
of whatever persuasion in this group), but it's happening anyway.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph I. Scully                               Philosopher by Design
Doctoral Candidate                             Salesman by Training
Marketing and International Business           Theoretician by Temperament
Michigan State University                      Statistician by Accident
21010JIS@MSU.BITNET / 21010JIS@IBM.CL.MSU.EDU  Saved by God's Grace
Newsgroups: alt.messianic