HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: taylor@hardy.u.washington.edu (Allen D. Taylor)
Subject: Re: Survivor in denial?
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 09:00:31 GMT

In article <1992Sep3.224011.6115@unislc.uucp> erc@unislc.uucp (Ed Carp) writes:
>
>How interesting a double standard you present!  You judge him as a harasser
>if he reacts to her in a certain way, yet refuse judgement on *anything* she
>would do to him?  Sounds fishy to me...
>
>This is the conundrum of current psychological theory regarding the treatment
>of abuse disorders - it says that one party has more rights than another,
>and that party should *take* those rights, by force if necessary.  Doesn't
>this strike you as a bit lopsided?
>-- 
>Ed Carp, N7EKG     erc@apple.com                801/538-0177
>"This is the final task I will ever give you, and it  goes  on  forever.   Act
>happy, feel happy, be happy, without a reason in the world. Then you can love,
>and do what you will."           -- Dan Millman, "Way Of The Peaceful Warrior"

You know, Ed, I have always considered you to be a very intelligent person.
I understand what you are saying and to a major degree, agree with you.  
However, there is a significant differance between the theoretical proposition
you are putting forth and the real world scenario the (opps, forgot their name)
is putting forth.

She is asking him; "Here is a line that I am asking you to stay on your side
of."  He made repeated assaults on that boundary, but she refused to move
the boundary.  She is taking a passive role of saying, "stop what you're doing 
TO ME!"  He is saying, "I can do anything I want TO YOU, and nothing you say 
will convince me otherwise!"

I don't see a double standard here.  I am saying she can communicate with, or
not communicate with, whomever she pleases.  If that excludes our hero,
then so be it.  He is saying he has the right to FORCE his communication on
her.  I just don't agree with that.

Withholding communication is a far cry from forcing communication.


--Allen

==============================================================================
Allen D. Taylor       University of Washington   taylor@cac.washington.edu
Information Systems   Seattle, Washington  USA   Human 1st - World Citizen 2nd
==============================================================================

Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: anon-1206@twwells.com
Subject: Re: newcomer
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 19:07:10 GMT
Organization: Anonymous Posting Service at twwells.com

[Teresa writes SO didn't take her telling of abuse so well]

Here's a real tender hug Teresa <++<<+>>++>

I can't believe it can be so hard for people to accept that this happens
and be sensitive and understanding to those its happened to - especially if
you supposedly really like that person!!!


Hi Marie & welcome,
	I can really relte to feeling good about where I am & realizing
that I probably will never have a "normal" day.
	For me I've come to a neat realization that at this point I think
my days are a whole lot better than those of most of the people I know.  They
are filled with life and love - also anger & frustration at times, but I'm
getting better at knowing where its coming from.

Anyway welcome :)

Mike Stoughton (aka m&m)



--
To use this service, send EMAIL to:
anon-ping@twwells.com  -- test path/get anonymous id
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anon-asar@twwells.com  -- post anonymously to alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: v130py5w@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Renee M Sparling)
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: Re: Adults saying NO
Date: 3 Sep 92 13:45:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

>You especially have to watch out for the "people pleaser" type of abused
>adult.  He or she will tell you repeatedly that it's OK, that they want
>what you want, etc. - then deny it afterwards; "that's *not* what I
>wanted!"  Even in this circumstance, "yes" doesn't mean "yes".  I have had
>one of these types recently come my way and do this to me.  My problem
>was, I let my heart get involved with her. :(

I am sort of like this but with my SO. Not the yes, yes, yes and then say i
didn't want it but in the way that i can't tell him how i feel during it or
what i want. He tells me to tell him what i like etc.. but i feel embarassed..
I think that as long as he is satisfied i'm happy, and if i'm satisfied even
better, but that doesn't always work.

Sometimes i'll think about what we're doing, picturing it in my mind and i'll
get disgusted and even repulsion and this in turn turns me off, basically 
leaving me in the dirt....I don't "fake" it with my SO, he'll ask me what
happened and i'll make up an excuse and that's that....
Does this happen to anyone else???? I can't help it either, i'll try to think 
about what ever and these thougts just pop into my head...

>Sometimes the survivor is so wrapped up in themselves (doing what you want
>to get what they want can be a form of selfishness, too) that they feel
>they can't communicate with you openly and honestly - regardless of the
>cost.  Either way.  So they keep their mouths shut until it's too late -
>then they blame you.  Result: no win for either person, no communication,
>no nada.

like i said i don't blame him because i know that it's my fault....he tries 
but...like i said it's to embarassing, but what your saying is absoulutly 
correct and i can relate to it...

Renee
From: tibbits@sisal.llnl.gov (Patrick Tibbits)
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: Re: newcomer
Date: 2 Sep 92 03:36:18 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory

Noone objected to my initial posting so I'm new here and to therapy
for post-traumatic stress disorder. 

Patrick

Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: cloister@milton.u.washington.edu (cloister bell)
Subject: Re: advice sought
Organization: University of Washington
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 15:51:14 GMT

scott_silverstein@yccatsmtp.ycc.yale.edu  writes:

>I had a mid-30's woman friend who relates a history of sexual abuse by a
>now-deceased relative.  She'd been in a number of dysfunctional
>relationships with men over the past decade.

>Trying to be her friend has been a roller coaster from day 1.
>If I behave nicely, she suspects "manipulation."  She says she
>doesn't understand the attraction, is not sure she deserves good
>people or things.  That maybe everything that goes wrong in her life
>is her fault.  Calm talking gets nowhere.  She talks endlessly about "how
>men are all scum." My confrontation with her about these behavior patterns
>led to (I fear) a permanent end of a friendship; I lost my temper after a
>few months of this.

>She had attached herself to another woman who is divorced and very bitter
>as well, which I feel is not the best kind of person for her to be hanging
>around with.  

>My friends told me (several times) to "ditch big time."  Yet I'm not that
>way.

>Comments or suggestions appreciated.  Thanks.

ed makes a lot of good points.  he's right in that it doesn't do anyone any
good if you let yourself be dragged down with her.  however, let me make case
for sticking around.  as ed says, she's setting herself up to fail, and when
she does, it re-enforces her negative self-image.  it's a vicious circle that
she may never escape.  so *if* you care enough about her, and *if* you have
your owh head on straight enough so that you can be immune to her attempts at
manipulation and guilt trips, then stick around.  she will eventually find that
despite her best efforts, she is not failing with you.  the taste of success
may be just what she needs.  it won't fix everything, but might be enough to
make her see the light, as it were, or at least realize that there is something
better than how she's been living.  those are big *if*'s, however.  and ed's
right; you have to take care of yourself first.  but if you are strong enough
to take care of yourself and be there for her too, why not give it a try?
-- 
+-------------------------------------------------+---------------------------+
|tactical nuclear sdi stealth nsafood signature.  | cloister@u.washington.edu |
+-------------------------------------------------+---------------------------+
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: erc@unislc.uucp (Ed Carp)
Subject: Re: Ouch. (SPOILERS)
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL5
Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1992 19:25:19 GMT

anon-1202@twwells.com wrote:

: But I'm sitting here feeling like someone has slapped me.  Two total
: strangers, people I don't know and will probably never meet, have told
: me they hate me.  Not because of who I am or what I've done; but 
: simply because I was born female.

I suppose that since I've gone though what the woman-hating poster has gone
through and come out the other side, I can understand both sides of this
issue.  Remember, for a large part of human history women have been treated
like chattel.  Now the pendulum is swinging the other way.  Let me put it
this way: when's the last time you heard of a woman being fired for coming
on to a man at work?  Many, many people generalize on the basis of gender,
and it's very difficult to get away from that, especially when you've
gone through a string of emotional wounds being involved with the opposite
sex.  "All men are assholes, all women are bitches."  It's so *easy* these
days to buy into that mindset, and every person that does so only makes it
worse.

: So go ahead; keep talking about what selfish bitches we all are, and
: how we all lie about being raped.  Keep painting us all with a big,
: fat, generalizing, dehumanizing brush.  After all, we're all exactly
: the same, aren't we?  We couldn't possibly just want to live our own 
: lives, could we?  JUST LIKE YOU???

That's true that regardless of gender, we all want to live our lives our
own way, but society has molded most of us into the "us versus them"
mentality.  Women have to manipulate men with sex to get any real power;
men have to manipulate women with material goods and the promise of
emotional security to get sex (which is really a form of power).

Not all are like this, but that's what the media and our society throw at
us every waking minute.  Let me ask you something: why do you get up and
take a shower and put on clean, nice-looking clothes and perhaps a bit of
perfume and makeup?  "Well, I want to look nice."  Look nice to whom?
For yourself?  Or for others?  "Well, if I didn't look nice, I'd probably
get fired!"  Well, so?  See, that's something done out of fear - the fear
of getting fired.  Others dress up to attract the opposite sex, because
the are afraid of being alone.  Still others dress up for societal approval.
I'm not saying it's OK or not OK to do stuff like this, but it *is* nice
to see when you're being manipulated, and when you're manipulating yourself.
-- 
Ed Carp, N7EKG     erc@apple.com                801/538-0177
"This is the final task I will ever give you, and it  goes  on  forever.   Act
happy, feel happy, be happy, without a reason in the world. Then you can love,
and do what you will."           -- Dan Millman, "Way Of The Peaceful Warrior"
From: krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us (D. 'krikket' Krick)
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: Re: Doing something for moi
Date: 29 Aug 92 09:34:14 GMT
Organization: The Meltdown - A Team Star BBS

In article <28AUG199209592651@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov>,
aatresa@lims01.lerc.nasa.gov (Teresa Kline) writes:
>For me, the greatest pleasures are the small ones, though.  It's taking 
>myself and my inner child out for a hot fudge sundae...just the two of us.  
>It's allowing myself to take time to go to the zoo or the museum.  Or even 
>just down to the park.

Thanks for the idea.  Friends have been telling me to treat myself for a while
now, but I've been completely blank on ideas.  You just hit it on the head.
Thanks!

While I'm in the message editor, I think I'll start posting something that I've
had trouble coping with.  First, I'm *NOT* a sexual abuse survivor.  I'm
dealing with the washout of loving one to many survivors, and taking on all of
their problems, and not being able to let go.  I don't know if this is the
approperiate place to post, but if this isn't it, please tell me where I should
go, as I am finally ready to begin dealing with some of these things.

I've always had an addiction to relationships and love.  I've always *NEEDED*
someone else to be there for me.  I still do.  I don't know how to stand on my
own two feet without that other person.  I still cry over some of the past
relationships I've been in.  Maria, who I bump into occasionally at SF
Conventions is always enough to cause a mood reversal.  And then there is the
person whom I don't even know if I'm still married to (Teri).  Dan, since you
performed the wedding, any comments?

But since I'm not certian if I'm in the right place, if there is even a right
place for this shit, I'll shuttup now.  Thanks for listening, and your
patience.

Krikket               ! krikket@meltdown.chi.il.us ! USnail:3 Danada Square E.
a.k.a Doug Krick      ! Team Star Charter Member   !        Suite 246
Data ph# 708/665-9732 ! #include<std.disclaimers>  !        Wheaton, Il 60187
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Just another commentary on the sad state of affairs on our nation today.
From: scott_silverstein@yccatsmtp.ycc.yale.edu (Scot Silverstein)
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: Talking to a survivor
Date: 27 Aug 92 18:24:19 GMT
Followup-To: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Organization: Yale University

Am I alone in having the feeling that talking to a Survivor
can leave a person thinking he/she's just traversed a mine field
covered by barbed wire, barefoot?

Not meant as a criticism, just interested in commentary.
From: v130py5w@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (ReNeE)
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: rambling
Date: 28 Aug 92 15:17:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

Here i am all wet after being caught in the rain. I figured i just sit here
and write.

These last few weeks have been hectic, enough to drive me to my limits...
i have had so many emotions running through me that it's not funny. i can't
stand going from happy to depressed even suicidal in half a breath. Then jump
back to giddy. These mood swings are hard to keep quite, ya know what i mean
when your joking with someone yucking it up and then you become solemn and quite
and only give one word answers to questions, then turn around and chat their ear
off..........<sigh> it's frustrating

My uncle has colon cancer. They found it 4 days ago, they operated 2 days ago
to remove a tumor. They didn't have to give him a colostimy, thank god. They
don't know if he needs chemo yet, i hope not
him and my aunt are the only ones who have any inkling of the abuse i 
suffered under, not just from my parents, but from my perps..........i
don't want him to die......he's to cool....

renee
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: dyer@spdcc.com (Steve Dyer)
Subject: Re: sunrise, sunset...sunrise, sunset...
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 05:34:12 GMT

In article <f_jn4nn.boserj@netcom.com> boserj@netcom.com (Jeffrey Boser) writes:
>May I ask what is wrong with poobear's cutting?  Why is ice better?  Why
>is everybody trying to make poobear do something else?  I see no
>evidence that what poobear is doing is incorrect.  After all, the price
>is poobear's to pay, and noone else's.  And dont say that its wrong
>to hurt yourself..  cause it isnt, and we all do that every day.
>I can understand suggesting new methods to deal with pain, but why
>must these other methods be implicitly better?

They're "implicitly better" because ice doesn't leave scars or risk
infection.  It's clear from poohbear's comments that she's not happy
with this habit of self-mutilation or the circumstances which lead her
to behave this way.  It's really wonderful to hear from people supporting
her when she's trying to avoid such behavior.  That's not to say that
if she finds herself cutting herself once again, that she's "bad" or
a "bad person".

What would you do with a person who liked to play Russian roulette?
Ask the same questions?  That's not support, that's complicity.

-- 
Steve Dyer
dyer@ursa-major.spdcc.com aka {ima,harvard,rayssd,linus,m2c}!spdcc!dyer
From: v130py5w@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Renee M Sparling)
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: re: rambling
Date: 31 Aug 92 12:03:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

>Gee, sounds familiar.  I was happy this morning for no reason, then almost
>suicidal, then depressed.  Now I'm kinda neutral.  Shit.  I think I'm going
>nuts. :(
> 
>- The Woman Hater

Someday I'm going to learn how to control these emotions,....all i concentrate
on now is not taking my feelings out on people, i do pretty good, i've never
had anyone really mad at me my whole life, of corse i'm a terrible  ass kisser..

renee
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: alawrenc@sobeco.com (a.lawrence)
Subject: Re: step eight
Reply-To: alawrenc@sobeco.com
Organization: Lawrence & Assc.
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 92 22:01:05 GMT

amends (n): compensation for loss or injury

When I started going to meeting and not drinking I was definately 
making a contribution of society by stopping or reducing my destructive
and dangerous behaviour, but I was NOT making amends.  That did not
begin until I actually started do my best to repair the damage and
harm I done to others.  For example, not breaking things is an improve-
ment in behaviour - the elimination of a character defect (step 7) -
but making amends means repairing or replacing them.


-- 
On a clear disk you can seek forever.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andrew Lawrence, Informaticien Conseil           |  alawrenc@sobeco.com
3605 St-Urbain, #1605                            |  uunet!sobeco!alawrenc
From: debrag@mattys.EBay.Sun.COM (Debra Giberson)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: No Cigarettes
Date: 3 Sep 92 23:34:58 GMT
Reply-To: debrag@mattys.EBay.Sun.COM
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.
NNTP-Posting-Host: mattys.ebay.sun.com

For those of you who were here when I first posted my non-smoking,
well I now have 80 days of abstinence from cigarettes. I just wanted to
share this with all of you.

Debra
From: dhawk@netcom.com (David Hawkins)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Step Nine
Keywords: amends
Date: 2 Sep 92 13:56:38 GMT
Distribution: na
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services  (408 241-9760 guest)

Step Nine:  Made direct amends to such people wherever possible except
when to do so would injure them or others.

Well, at least it's a straightforward step.  Nice word there:
'direct.'  Personally I'd prefer 'indirect' amends for some of the
folks I've harmed.  Wouldn't it be ok if I were just real, real, real
good for the rest of my life instead of taking direct action today?

;-)


later, david
--
David Hawkins    dhawk@netcom.com
All music jars when the soul's out of tune.  --  Miguel de Cervantes
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
From: daalrutz@violet.uwaterloo.ca (deb alrutz)
Subject: step eight         
Organization: University of Waterloo
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 14:19:30 GMT

Hi Phil
a little voice went off in me when you wrote tell me if I'm doing anything
wrong and it made me think that you might want to add yourself to the list as
it may be harmful to assume you might be wrong;-
progress not perfection
 as for step 8 I was thinking about it yesterday in terms of being
co-dependent and addictive in my control issues.; to make a list of all the
people I took responsibility for seemed overwhelming but nontheless, I've
started and I can see how my years spent in judgement of others imprisoned
me. 
I was like mission control keeping everybody together (so I thought) and now
I am beginning to see that I would have fallen apart without that illusion.
Serenity-Suz
From: weiss872@snake.cs.uidaho.edu (Phil Weiss)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Richard Carnes (was: Alcoholism)
Date: 31 Aug 92 20:46:14 GMT
Reply-To: weiss@leopard.cs.uidaho.edu
Organization: University of Idaho CS Dept.
X-Posted-From: potlatch.cs.uidaho.edu
X-Posted-Through: sol.ctr.columbia.edu


Just a short comment.

I keep reading all this stuff you are posting, Richard, where you
rail against AA, and tell us that there are other methods of
recovery.

All well and good.

But why do you keep on filling up these (very) lengthy posts with
quotes from books and opinions from "experts" and studies?

Where is your own experience?

What did you do to recover from alcoholism?

The information is alright, but it isn't particularly real, or at
least it doesn't seem that way, especially when it comes in the
form of a barrage.

Phil.
From: esteward@bbseg5.isi.edu (Elaine Steward)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Re: No Cigarettes
Date: 4 Sep 92 15:35:11 GMT

In article <1867f2INN9kd@grapevine.EBay.Sun.COM>  
debrag@mattys.EBay.Sun.COM (Debra Giberson) writes:
> For those of you who were here when I first posted my non-smoking,
> well I now have 80 days of abstinence from cigarettes. I just wanted to
> share this with all of you.
> 
> Debra

Debra 

GOOD FOR YOU!!!  I know how hard it is - I just reached 9 months myself.   
I never, NEVER want to have to quit again.  I try to remember this when  
I'm tempted.  (I still LOVE to smell the smoke!)

I hope it keeps working for us both.

elaine
From: millman@ursa.UUCP (Phillip Millman)
Newsgroups: alt.recovery
Subject: Time to Gloat
Date: 1 Sep 92 17:30:12 GMT
Organization: Bear Stearns, NY
X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4

Well, I made it to my 5th Anniversery.  Guess my brains should be 
returning shortly (Hope they get here soon!)

Phillip Millman
millman@bear.com
Xref: sparky alt.recovery:3035 alt.drugs:15155