HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: Bush Vetoes Stupid Education Reform Bill
Date: 6 Nov 92 13:14:28 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc

In <Bx7zHo.Fsv@NeoSoft.com> rocky@NeoSoft.com (Joe Mullally) writes:

>In article <1597@airgun.wg.waii.com> miller@hmsp04.wg3.waii.com (Griff Miller X7114) writes:
>>In article <1992Oct30.003930.26090@watson.ibm.com> johniac@austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti) writes:
>>>In article <1588@airgun.wg.waii.com>, miller@hmsp04.wg3.waii.com (Griff Miller X7114) writes:
>>>|> Agreed! Extremists do no one any good by trying to force any religion
>>>|> (including atheism) on people. 
>>>
>>>Atheism is not a religion.  That's like calling a vacuum a type of 
>>>matter.
>>
>>No, not in the usual sense of the word. But it's still a set of beliefs
>>that someone could attempt to impose. That's what I was trying to say.

>	I think you give in too easily on this one, Griff. By definition,
>it is arguable that atheism (denial of the existence of God) is not
>a religion, no doubt. But, is it religious? I think, in the sense that
>someone who touts no politick also is political in his/her anti-
>communism, for example, atheists are religious. 

But this just doesn't seem to track, Joe.  An atheist (typically) says
there is not God (or gods) because there is no evidence for one.  I've
always felt that this effort on the part of some religious groups to
paint parts of religion as 'science' and parts of science as
'religion' are extremely damaging to both.

>They, being religious,
>should not have their ideology enforced versus another religious
>ideology. Except when the idea being forwarded stems from other than
>the ideology itself. Otherwise, much of what is taught already betrays
>the Bible. ergo the possibility that days once lasted billions and
>billions and... (poor Sagan ape). 

The only 'sane' approach consistent with not simply saying that the
Bible is religion and not science is to say that it is speaking
allegorically.  Unfortunately, that violates the religion of people
who believe in inerrancy.  

>Here's what I think. They should teach
>this: Days last 24 hours. The kid asks: "But the Bible says God made
>(blah blah blah)". The teacher should tell the kid to ask his parent
>to explain. She ought not say "Because the Bible's wrong.", or "Days
>lasted billions and billions and..."  

So then what answers do you score as being correct on the test?  All
of them?  Why bother to try to teach them anything?

-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
Newsgroups: tx.politics
From: rocky@NeoSoft.com (Joe Mullally)
Subject: Re: Abstinence from Sex Education?
Organization: NeoSoft Communications Services -- (713) 684-5900
Distribution: tx
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 00:28:02 GMT

In article <BxK810.M9q@NeoSoft.com> hari@NeoSoft.com (Doug Andersen) writes:
>In article <1620@airgun.wg.waii.com>, miller@hmsp04.wg3.waii.com (Griff Miller X7114) writes:
>> You say that like it's a bad thing :-). Seriously, these Republicans want to 
>> teach abstinence as the first line of defense, not as the only form of
>> defense. 
> 
>I don't think that's quite right.  I've never heard anyone, even the most
>ardent sex education proponent, say that abstinence shouldn't be brought
>up and encouraged.  On the other hand, many of the major groups (and
>people) opposing sex education have made it clear that abstinence is the
>only acceptable sex education message.

	Agreed.
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joe Mullally (rocky@sugar.neosoft.com) PH:713-681-2495
"We need stronger death penalties..." George Bush, debate #2
Newsgroups: tx.politics
From: exuptr@exu.ericsson.se (Patrick Taylor)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: Clinton has won...watch your pocket!
Date: 5 Nov 92 16:23:52 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: Ericsson Network Systems, Inc.
X-Disclaimer: This article was posted by a user at Ericsson.
              Any opinions expressed are strictly those of the
              user and not necessarily those of Ericsson.

In article <1992Nov4.184950.2138@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
>Subject: Re: Clinton has won...watch your pocket!
>Date: 4 Nov 92 18:49:50 GMT

>Once again, I'm curious.  Do you make over $200k?  If not, why are you
>so sure of what you claim is 'going to surely happen'?

>[You talk like George Bush never raised your taxes.]

>-- 
>"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
> in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.

Hey, Fred, isn'tthe $200k figure based on HOUSEHOLD income, not personal?
Not that *we* would qualify, my wife has her own nubile business.
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 PEROT IN '96!

  - Patrick Taylor, Ericsson Network Systems
    exuptr@exu.ericsson.se                    "Don't let the .se fool you"
    exuptr@ZGNews.Lonestar.Org  <SLOW!>
Newsgroups: tx.politics
From: johniac@austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti/100000)
Subject: Re: Bush Vetoes Stupid Education Reform Bill
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 92 23:26:40 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: IBM T. J. Watson Research
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

John F. Haugh II (jfh@rpp386.lonestar.org) wrote:
: Again, students in my high school were attacked by the faculty for
: nothing more than pointing their face in a downward direction while
: still awake because that behavior was also known as "prayer."

Perhaps it was because they weren't paying attention, although I think kids
are entitled to not pay attention as long as they're not disruptive.

: It is frightening to think that students and faculty in Moscow
: schools now have MORE religious freedom than students and faculty
: in Austin schools.

Didn't you go to high school 12 years ago in Louisiana?  What does this have
to do with Austin?

--
John Iacoletti       IBM AWS Austin       Internet: johniac@austin.ibm.com
        My opinions do not reflect the views of the IBM Corporation
"When you're following an angel, does it mean you have to throw your body off a 
 building?" -- TMBG
From: jfh@rpp386.lonestar.org (John F. Haugh II)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: Bush Vetoes Stupid Education Reform Bill
Date: 7 Nov 92 04:29:41 GMT
Reply-To: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II)
Distribution: tx
Organization: Los Tejanos SCUBA Club and Beer Joint, Austin, Tejas

In article <1992Nov05.232640.30219@watson.ibm.com> johniac@austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti/100000) writes:
>John F. Haugh II (jfh@rpp386.lonestar.org) wrote:
>: Again, students in my high school were attacked by the faculty for
>: nothing more than pointing their face in a downward direction while
>: still awake because that behavior was also known as "prayer."
>
>Perhaps it was because they weren't paying attention, although I think kids
>are entitled to not pay attention as long as they're not disruptive.

I was told not to pray over my lunch in the lunchroom.  And while I am
adult enough to admit I control my own habits, that was when I stopped
regularly saying grace.  Eight hours a day of anti-religious
indoctrination is NOT what school is supposed to be about.

>Didn't you go to high school 12 years ago in Louisiana?  What does this have
>to do with Austin?

Considering it was still going on in Plano just 4 years ago, I'd say it
has plenty to do with Austin schools.
-- 
John F. Haugh II                  [  TSAKC  ] !'s: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh
Ma Bell: (512) 251-2151           [ DoF #17 ]        @'s: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org
Newsgroups: tx.politics
From: johniac@austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti/100000)
Subject: Re: Bush Vetoes Stupid Education Reform Bill
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 92 20:41:44 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: IBM Advanced Workstations and Systems, Austin, TX
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

John F. Haugh II (jfh@rpp386.lonestar.org) wrote:
: In article <1992Nov05.233921.31258@watson.ibm.com> johniac@austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti/100000) writes:
: >Like it or not, an employer can dictate what his employee does while at work.
: 
: WRONG!  If your employer is the government they must still play by the
: rules - and the rules are what is written in the Constitution.

So if he wants to bring a loaded pistol to class and brandish it around, his 
employer can't stop him without violating his 2nd amendment rights?

Suppose he's a history teacher and he'd rather spend the entire class period
talking about football (that's for you Fred) instead.  Can they violate his
freedom of speech?

This is ridiculous.  Just because somebody works for the government, it 
doesn't mean that restrictions can't be placed on what he does when he's
working.

: If a teacher can read "Newsweek" during his class reading period, he should
: be able to read the Bible.  Something about "or prohibiting the free
: exercise thereof".

How about if he wants to read Hustler magazine?  Would you object?  Sorry.
If he wants to get paid for reading a bible, he can go get a job working for
somebody who wants to pay him for reading the bible.  The government can't 
restrict his reading the bible at home, but as an employer they have every
right to tell him what he can and cannot do at school.

--
John Iacoletti       IBM AWS Austin       Internet: johniac@austin.ibm.com
        My opinions do not reflect the views of the IBM Corporation
    "Egad, a base tone denotes a bad age" -- TMBG   "I Palindrome I"
From: jfh@rpp386.lonestar.org (John F. Haugh II)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: CHOICE: DEBATE BASED ON COMPETING PHILOSOPHIES
Date: 7 Nov 92 04:52:16 GMT
Reply-To: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II)
Distribution: tx
Organization: Los Tejanos SCUBA Club and Beer Joint, Austin, Tejas

In article <1992Nov06.225623.21548@cpqhou.compaq.com> thomasr@cpqhou.UUCP (Thomas Rush) writes:
>In article <1992Nov2.034821.8556@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>>Well no, it won't.  We've been all through the reasons before, John.
>>You simply fail to present a credible case for why this doesn't simply
>>result in white middle-class and better parents getting subsidized to
>>pull their kids out of public schools.

Actually, yes it will.  It goes like this.

A private school will get NOTHING! if they don't accept any student,
any race, any gender, any religious background for the voucher.  Most
private and parachial schools meet this standard already.

You'll have private schools getting NOTHING! for all of the students
they are taking if they don't accept poor nigra kids from East Austin.
Adam Smith says that the schools which don't selectively admit students
will make MORE MONEY! since they are getting subsidized by the state.
Making MORE MONEY! is a goal many capitalists have ...

>I think this can be a win-win situation.

No, it is a win-lose situation.  The politicians count heavily on the
votes from the teachers whose salaries they control.  Take away the
cosy relationship between politicians and those who feed at the public
trough, and you, well, you figure it out.

>Private schools in this country average about half the cost to 
>educate a student as public schools.  Lets say $2500 vs. $5000.
>That being the case, allow every parent the opportunity to use
>a $2500 voucher.  For each student that is then enrolled in a
>private school, the public school gets a $2500 subsidy.
>
>It's kind of like the government paying farmers not to grow crops.

That's right - in this case they are paying schools not to teach
students ;-(.
-- 
John F. Haugh II                  [  TSAKC  ] !'s: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh
Ma Bell: (512) 251-2151           [ DoF #17 ]        @'s: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: hot air, etc
From: richard@technology.com (Richard Murphy)
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 05:42:08 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: Southwest Research Institute, San Antonio, Texas

Since Judy is on vacation for another week, I'll toss this
out on her behalf. Ok, the election is over, Bush is gone,
the Reps are stabbing each other in the back, and most people
in this group are still predicting the future! Great things
like Kemp Comeback in '96, blah blah blah.....really practical
stuff. What about some discussion about..........Texas politics!
Like what the hell are we going to do about Edgewood vs. Kirby
or state infrastructure priorities. NAFTA alone is quite an
interesting topic....

So how many of you supply-siders are moving to Utah?
From: miller@hmsp04.wg3.waii.com (Griff Miller X7114)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: Bush Vetoes Stupid Education Reform Bill
Date: 4 Nov 92 18:07:55 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: Western Geo. - Div of Western Atlas Intn'l Inc., Houston, TX

In article <1992Nov3.190407.2755@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>
>Proselytizing is part of Christianity.  Some are just more obnoxious
>about it than others.

And most are not obnoxious at all. Again I say, it's the loud ones you hear
about, like the extremists in any group. If a person isn't thumping his
Bible and telling you that you're going to burn in Hell, do you assume that
he's not a Christian?  :-)
--
Griff Miller - miller@monarch.wg3.waii.com
My opinions are mine, not Western's.
"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but 
fools despise wisdom and discipline."   - Proverbs 1:7
From: jfh@rpp386.lonestar.org (John F. Haugh II)
Newsgroups: tx.politics,misc.kids
Subject: Re: Bush Vetoes Stupid Education Reform Bill
Date: 7 Nov 92 04:45:53 GMT
Reply-To: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II)
Distribution: tx
Organization: Los Tejanos SCUBA Club and Beer Joint, Austin, Tejas

In article <1613@airgun.wg.waii.com> reed@rd08.wg2.waii.com writes:
>	I would not believe John Haugh's claim that silent prayer was
>	not allowed in his high school.  Like his claim that he was
>	once offered a scholarship to MIT (MIT doesn't give
>	scholarships), it is probably another lie made to advance his
>	own argument.

Grant, scholarship, financial aid - who knows.  I was 16 at the time.
That would be about 15 years ago (13 if you believe I'm still 29 ;-)

The offer was $5,000 for 2 years, with two more years of the same if
some collection of circumstances were met.  I would have had to stay
on campus (or something like that) and after I figured out the cost
would be a total of >$10,000 per year, I passed on it.

I've had this discussion with someone else and the conclusion was I
don't have the slightest idea what the hell it was.  But MIT =did=
make "financial aid" available in 1979.

>                      And even if they did ban silent prayer, Haugh's
>	hated enemy, the ACLU, would have been more than happy to sue
>	the school district for their violation of his freedom of
>	expression rights.  Non-disruptive speech and expression are
>	protected behavior, and silent prayer during lunch period,
>	between classes and during study hall is certainly
>	non-disruptive.

Since the reports from others of bans on prayer in school are plentiful,
it would seem that Michael is arguing out of his ass.

>	Tell you what.  If anyone can find a student who was told they
>	could not prayer silently in school, I will sue the district on	
>	behalf of the student for their rights.  

Good.  I'll be cross-posting this to misc.kids.

Look, I gave you the source of the information.  If you dispute it, don't
tell me - tell Reader's Digest.  As a PhD you know that publication is
one of the best ways to expose fraud.  Let people read it, tear it apart,
find out what the truth is, and then come back and comment on it.
-- 
John F. Haugh II                  [  TSAKC  ] !'s: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh
Ma Bell: (512) 251-2151           [ DoF #17 ]        @'s: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org
Newsgroups: tx.politics
From: johniac@austin.ibm.com (John Iacoletti/100000)
Subject: Re: Football Failures at Bowie Force end of Season
Date: Fri, 06 Nov 92 23:41:07 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: IBM Advanced Workstations and Systems, Austin, TX
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL6]

fred j mccall 575-3539 (mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com) wrote:
: >And exactly how does this "trash" the schools?
: 
: Watered down standards (so they can graduate),

The solution to this is to raise the standards and not graduate them.

: disruptive behaviour
: (because they aren't interested in being there,

The solution to this is to kick them out of class if they're being disruptive.

: slowed down classes so that everyone learns less

The solution to this is to have different levels of classes for the slow
learners and the fast learners.

:                                                       It USED to be
: that a high school diploma meant SOMETHING -- an employer could assume
: that someone who got through high school had a certain set of basic
: skills.  You can't do that anymore.

NONE OF THIS HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH FOOTBALL.

This may come as a big shock to you, but there are students who don't play
school sports but who still are disruptive or slow learners.  Just like there
are students who play sports who aren't disruptive or slow learners.

As usual, instead of addressing the problems directly, people go for the 
easiest target that they can scapegoat, regardless of whether it makes any
sense or not, and then they pat themselves on the back because they did
SOMETHING.

--
John Iacoletti       IBM AWS Austin       Internet: johniac@austin.ibm.com
        My opinions do not reflect the views of the IBM Corporation
"When you're following an angel, does it mean you have to throw your body off a 
 building?" -- TMBG
From: curt@ekhadafi.austin.ibm.com (Curt Finch 903 2F021 curt@aixwiz.austin.ibm.com 512-838-2806)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: L.A. Magnet School for Medicine
Date: 5 Nov 92 15:12:20 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: IBM AWD, Austin


                   =====  A LOCAL LOOK  =====

*4   LOS ANGELES MAGNET PROGRAM:  DRAWING STUDENTS TO MEDICINE
     The Francisco Bravo Medical Magnet H.S. began in 1981 as a
61-student health sciences program designed to boost Latino
representation in health-care professions (Sipchen, L.A. TIMES).
Today, the school has a student body of 1,393 and is located in
the U-Southern Calif. County medical center.  Bravo now looks,
according to the TIMES, "like a corporate headquarters."
     The school is a result of cooperation between USC; a private
hospital-building firm, and the Los Angeles Unified School
District.  USC hired a firm to build a hospital for its faculty.
The firm approached the school district about a parcel of land on
which it wanted to build the hospital.  The school district, in
turn, asked the firm and USC to construct and support a magnet
school in exchange for the right to purchase the land.
     USC assists the school with teachers and labs.  A $750,000
three-year grant from the National Institute for Health funds the
development of special instruction material by teachers at Bravo
and USC.  One program allows Joe Cocozza, a PhD in neuroscience
to instruct Bravo students what he taught in college.  "I'm not
watering anything down," he said.  Another lets students work
toward a one-year ophthalmology internship and eventual
certification to assist ophthalmologists.
     Bravo's class of 1992 sent 86% to four-year colleges and 12%
to two-year or vocational schools.  Districtwide, the numbers are
36% and 29% respectively.  Larry Gonzales, who served on the
school board early in Bravo's existence:   "I can see these type
of projects happening all over Los Angeles." (11/2)


-- 
--
curt@aixwiz.austin.ibm.com (Curt L. Finch) | AIX NFS/NIS Field Quality 
My views are unrelated to those of IBM     |        Austin, TX
 - Begin means testing of Social Security, Medicare and Farm Subsidies now. -
From: mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Re: Clinton has won...watch your pocket!
Date: 4 Nov 92 18:49:50 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: Texas Instruments Inc

In <mPVPTB1w165w@keys.lonestar.org> cwinemil@keys.lonestar.org (Chris Winemiller) writes:

>Well, Clinton has won.  Time to move more of my salary into the 401k;
>hopefully, after Clinton gets in and raises my taxes (as he surely
>will), I'll end up paying no more than I currently do.

Great.  If all the folks who are thinking like this do the same thing,
we'll see a vast increase in the savings rate in this country, which
will make more funds available for investment.

Once again, I'm curious.  Do you make over $200k?  If not, why are you
so sure of what you claim is 'going to surely happen'?

[You talk like George Bush never raised your taxes.]

-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.
Newsgroups: tx.politics
From: wrr3118@tamsun.tamu.edu (Rick Russell)
Subject: Re: SCIENCE IN; GYM, SOCIAL STUDIES OUT
Organization: Texas A&M University, College Station
Distribution: tx
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 18:43:10 GMT

In article <1992Nov11.215327.5431@awdprime.austin.ibm.com> curt@ekhadafi.austin.ibm.com (Curt Finch 903 2F021 curt@aixwiz.austin.ibm.com 512-838-2806) writes:
>*1   BALTO. PROPOSAL:  SCIENCE IN; GYM, SOCIAL STUDIES OUT
>SUN.  "Are we allowing kids to choose the proper things?  A
>youngster needs a period a day to go out and get rid of some of
>his energy," said Towson H.S. Principal Louis Sergi.  And
>reducing social studies requirements would "produce less-informed
>young people," some say.

Read: Social studies is 'information', science is not.

And what a wonderful world it would be....
-- 
#      Rick Russell | TAMU Meteorology | wrr3118@tamsun.tamu.edu       # 
#      This netnews message has been brought to you by the number 3!   #
From: curt@ekhadafi.austin.ibm.com (Curt Finch 903 2F021 curt@aixwiz.austin.ibm.com 512-838-2806)
Newsgroups: tx.politics
Subject: Bush starts unpatriotic trade war.
Date: 6 Nov 92 04:47:58 GMT
Distribution: tx
Organization: IBM AWD, Austin

Saw on TV last nite that Bush and Carla Hills have imposed a 200%
tariff on French White wine.  Trust me it's just the beginning.

If you thought Bush's tax increases and overregulation were bad, just
wait until you get a taste of the depression a trade war will bring
on.

Clinton's response?  A stupified "Duuhhhhh?  I don't know.  I don't
want to interfere...."  Just great....  Great.... what a leader.

This trade war is just beginning.  It will tank the economy.  Clinton
will be blamed and he'll lose next time.

The fact that Bush did this at this time shows an understanding of
economics I never attributed to him.  He wants this to be the last term
the Democrats have in the White House for quite a while.  Nothing will
do it like a trade war.

FDR's trade war and FDR's tax and spend economics prolonged the
depression until WWII pulled us out.  If you think FDR was a big help
in the depression then you've been listening to Dan Rather too much.
Read "The Economist."

If you're one of the 43% that voted for Clinton, then you better warn
that clueless bozo now.

Bush is playing with fire here.  And Clinton is no fireman.  Warn him.
Write him a letter or send him a fax.  It's not too early for him to
come out for free trade.

-- 
--
curt@aixwiz.austin.ibm.com (Curt L. Finch) | AIX NFS/NIS Field Quality 
My views are unrelated to those of IBM     |        Austin, TX
 - Begin means testing of Social Security, Medicare and Farm Subsidies now. -