HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: nelson_p@apollo.hp.com (Peter Nelson)
Subject: Re: Singularity (Gordon's idea)
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1992 18:08:29 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Corporation, Chelmsford, MA

In article <1992Nov13.165429.15722@ils.nwu.edu> hooker@aristotle.ils.nwu.edu ( BOB HOOKER) writes:
>In article <1992Nov7.153226.2722@panix.com>, gcf@panix.com (Gordon Fitch)
>> | 
>> |    I can see this as a possibility-- William Gibson's universe is just 
>> | such a place, in which traditional cultural lines have been seemingly 
>> | blurred beyond recognition; sort of the world suggested by Michael 
>> | Jackson's "it doesn't matter if you're black or white" video,

>> I'm glad a few people understand Michael Jackson.  He
>> may not be a great artist, but he does see that there
>> is an Edge and that we are not approaching it, it is
>> approaching us (if there's a difference).
>
>Perhapes you would be wise the remember the Doctor Suess story about a
>civiliazation of strange creatures that stratified their society because
>"we have stars on ours, others don't".

    This is getting bizarre!    

    A few postings ago someone conceded that Rand's works didn't 
    hold up well in terms of formal logic, but still expressed
    important truths at a more artistic level, and he cited 
    several of her fictional works.    

    I complained that, while this may be, the problem with
    "fictional truths" is that there's no useful way to talk
    about them, anaylze them, or assess them.  The truth in
    a work of art is purely subjective precisely because art
    lacks the intellectual discipline that makes science work.
    It provides no means to step outside of our own personal
    experience of it.   Art offers no means to reach closure.

    And now, above, we are bombarded with a whole conversation
    in a vocabulary comprised of references to popular culture
    artifacts such as William Gibson, Michael Jacksom, and Dr.
    Seuss!   Just what do any of you hope to establish by
    speaking in such terms?


---peter

  
    

Newsgroups: alt.postmodern,alt.sci.physics.new-theories,alt.alien.visitors
From: galt%peruvian.cs.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Greg Alt)
Subject: Re: Bigfoot, or a bear????
Date: 9 Nov 92 00:26:04 MST
Followup-To: alt.postmodern,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,alt.cascade
Reply-To: galt%peruvian.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu
Organization: University of Utah, CS Dept., Salt Lake City

James "Kibo" Parry writes:
>Richard D Warner writes:
>>I did see a sign that said, "Cascade tree farm".  
>Don't let alt.cascade see this or you'll have farmed a new cascade tree!
or be treed by the Cascade Farm(TM)
Xref: sparky alt.postmodern:2654 alt.cyberpunk:5469
From: srubio@garnet.berkeley.edu (Steven Rubio)
Newsgroups: alt.postmodern,alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: Left-Right Continuum (was Help! I'm a Futurist and I can't get up!!)
Date: 7 Nov 1992 15:58:49 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

What seems especially important in your comments is the degree to which
labels are relative, i.e. what we call "communism" is seen as left-wing or
right-wing depending on the point of view of the speaker.  I would argue
that not only are new models necessary, but that the old models need to be
exposed for their subjective nature.  Only in a country where Ted Kennedy
is considered a "liberal" would a conservative moderate like Bill Clinton be
seen as a "left-wing" alternative to a moderate conservative like George Bush.

-- 
El mejor fanatico de Orlando Cepeda,

Steven

Newsgroups: alt.postmodern,sci.philosophy.meta,soc.history,talk.philosophy.misc,talk.religion.newage,rec.arts.books,sci.anthropology
From: jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy)
Subject: Re: William Irwin Thompson
Reply-To: jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU
Organization: Computer Science Department, Stanford University
	<1992Nov10.110606.27573@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>
Distribution: inet
Date: 10 Nov 92 06:18:48

This essay mixes up acute observations, unsupported dicta and mere
metaphors.  If challenged I'll mention some of each.  The trouble with
gurus, and I suppose he is one, is that their writings are not
refereed, and this makes them intellectually self-indulgent.

--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
*
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.

Xref: sparky alt.postmodern:2663 sci.philosophy.meta:2419 soc.history:9271 talk.philosophy.misc:2347 talk.religion.newage:5139
From: haynes@cats.ucsc.edu (Jim Haynes)
Newsgroups: alt.postmodern,sci.philosophy.meta,soc.history,talk.philosophy.misc,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: William Irwin Thompson
Date: 9 Nov 1992 07:19:28 GMT
Organization: University of California; Santa Cruz
Distribution: inet
NNTP-Posting-Host: hobbes.ucsc.edu
Keywords: William, Irwin, Thompson ;)


Well I'm reading "The American Replacement of Nature" right now and finding
it a lot of fun.  I was put on to it by a review in IEEE Spectrum.
-- 
haynes@cats.ucsc.edu
haynes@cats.bitnet

"Ya can argue all ya wanna, but it's dif'rent than it was!"
"No it aint!  But ya gotta know the territory!"
        Meredith Willson: "The Music Man"

Xref: sparky alt.postmodern:2677 alt.cyberpunk:5616
From: Chris Chesher <cchesher@uts.edu.au>
Newsgroups: alt.postmodern,alt.cyberpunk
Subject: Re: Left-Right Continuum (was Help! I'm a Futurist and I can't get up!!)
Date: 10 Nov 1992 23:16:55 GMT
Organization: Uni of Technology, Sydney
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: maclab433-27.hum.uts.edu.au
X-UserAgent: Nuntius v1.1.1d12
X-XXMessage-ID: <A7268E42E4018AB1@maclab433-27.hum.uts.edu.au>
X-XXDate: Wed, 11 Nov 92 18:17:38 GMT

In article <1992Nov7.035959.4315@Princeton.EDU> Adam Cody Coggins,
acoggins@phoenix.Princeton.EDU writes:
>I propose that politics is more compicated than a single "left-right" 
>continuum, and that we we should introduce some political models with
>more "degrees of freedom".  For example:
>
>"Big government" vs. "Little government"
>"libertarian" vs. "paternalistic"
>"deregulated" vs "regulated"
>"planned economy" vs. "free market"
>"religious" vs "secular"
>"isolationist" vs "interventionist"
>"democratic" vs "totalitarian"
>
>(and surely other net.readers can think of even better classifications)


Surely they *can* think of better categories! Not only is
politics more compolicated than the left-right continuum,
it is more complicated than these  categorizations.  

Any political categorization (whether left or right,
libertarian or paternalistic), contains  implicit
preassumptions about the world. 

Political discussion should be centred on  terminology and
recognise the way these categories affect the way we think
and act.
Newsgroups: alt.postmodern,sci.philosophy.meta,soc.history,talk.philosophy.misc,talk.religion.newage,rec.arts.books,sci.anthropology
From: kasprj@jec322.its.rpi.edu (Jim Kasprzak)
Subject: Re: William Irwin Thompson
Reply-To: kasprj@rpi.edu
Organization: The Big Wedge 
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 02:25:30 GMT

In article <1992Nov11.111101.10259@neptune.inf.ethz.ch>, cohen@cumuli.vmsmail.ethz.ch (Mark Cohen) writes:

|> So to liken the cyanobacteria
|> to elves because they produced the blue sky is not only scientifically
|> incorrect (the sky on Mars is blue without oxygen)...

 Er, Mark, which Mars are _you_ from? The Viking photographs clearly showed
a pink sky over Mars. 
------------------------------------------------------------------
     __  Live from Capitaland, heart of the Empire State...
 ___/  | Jim Kasprzak, computer operator @ RPI, Troy, NY, USA
/____ *| Sam Adams,Spaten# Life is too short #Hudson Lager,Beck's 
     \_| Pilsener Urquell#to drink cheap beer#Pete's Wicked Ale
      ====  e-mail: kasprj@rpi.edu or kasprzak@mts.rpi.edu
Organization: Arizona State University
Date: Friday, 6 Nov 1992 13:55:27 MST
From: <ASEDC@ASUACAD.BITNET>
Newsgroups: alt.postmodern
Subject: Address of Resurgence Magazine?

Does someone in the net know the editorial address of the magazine Resurgence?

I will like to subscribe. I only know it is edited in the U.K. The library
here at ASU does not carry it.
Thanks a lot.
Enrique.
ASEDC@ASUACAD.BITNET
Xref: sparky alt.postmodern:2665 sci.philosophy.meta:2434 soc.history:9272 talk.philosophy.misc:2351 talk.religion.newage:5143
From: lizi@hermes.berkeley.edu (Cosma Shalizi)
Newsgroups: alt.postmodern,sci.philosophy.meta,soc.history,talk.philosophy.misc,talk.religion.newage
Subject: Re: William Irwin Thompson
Date: 9 Nov 1992 15:11:59 GMT
Organization: Campus Crusade for Cthulhu (Berkeley Tentacle)
Distribution: inet
NNTP-Posting-Host: hermes.berkeley.edu
Keywords: William, Irwin, Thompson ;)

In article <1992Nov9.040747.24800@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> mporter@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mitchell Porter) writes:
>After a year on the net I have yet to see anyone anywhere mention William
>Irwin Thompson's ideas. Is anyone aware of a place they are discussed?
   It would help a bit of you mentioned (very briefly) what said ideas are,
and might (might!) even get some of us interested...
	Cosma Rohilla Shalizi
	In Real Life: lizi@soda.berkeley.edu
	larval physicist
-- 
"What's the use of being an American citizen if I can't swear when I
damn well want to?" - My mother, while waiting in line in Heathrow
Newsgroups: alt.postmodern,alt.religion.kibology,alt.alien.visitors
From: kibo@world.std.com (James "Kibo" Parry)
Subject: Re: GRAVITY-NEUTRALIZING INVENTION
Followup-To: alt.postmodern,alt.sex,misc.test,alt.religion.scientology,alt.alien.visitors,alt.cascade
Organization: Two rooms filled with typography, in downtown Boston
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 07:08:37 GMT

In article <1992Nov4.174153.2106@cnsvax.uwec.edu> mcelwre@cnsvax.uwec.edu writes:
>                         Gravity-NEUTRALIZING Spacecraft
>                         or ZERO/REDUCED-Gravity Chamber
>...
>    
>               VERY CLOSE CONTACT must be made as the disc extensions 
>          slide past the wall extensions in order to conduct the 
>          "Kinemassic" Energy (term coined by the Inventor) from the 
>          discs to the walls in an ALTERNATING CIRCULATION yap yap yap
>          yap yap yap yap yap koo-koo yap yap yap yap yap yap yap yap
>          yap yap, yap yap yap yap ding dong yap yap yap?  Yap yap yap
>          yap yap yap yap... yap yap yap yap bork bork bork!

Oh NO!  Someone's fired the DEEDLEE RAY at Mr. McElwaine!  He's growing
DEEDLEE FRINGE all over!  Quick, Henry, the scissors!  Before he's
chintzed to death!

>                                        Robert E. McElwaine
>                                        B.S., Physics and Astronomy, UW-EC
                                         ^^^^
"B.S." is somehow fitting.

								-- K.
From: bbrace@world.std.com (Brad L Brace)
Subject: All over all over
Summary: All over
Keywords: All
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1992 04:45:55 GMT

............the Dead Artist Trailer
Park....................................
...............................now accepting
applications..............bbrace@world.std.com

Xref: sparky alt.postmodern:2655 alt.cyberpunk:5470 talk.politics.theory:4773 alt.society.anarchy:682
From: acoggins@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Adam Cody Coggins)
Subject: Left-Right Continuum (was Help! I'm a Futurist and I can't get up!!)
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1992 03:59:59 GMT

(Apologies for the garbled quotations)

>In article <1992Oct27.003932.16498@highlite.uucp>, mike@highlite.uucp
>(Mike Wiik) writes:
>> jessec@yang.earlham.edu writes:
>>>In article <1992Oct23.165550.23013@usage.csd.unsw.OZ.AU>,
>>>mann@spectrum.cs.unsw.oz.au (Graham Mann) writes:
>>>> [...]
>>>> I doubt if the old left-right continuum is much use any more.
>>>   Where'd you get that from?? I must have missed it.
>> [...]
>> One could read F.M. Esfandiary's book _Upwingers_ to see how the
>> left/right, liberal/conservative paradigm is totally unprepared to
>> lead us into any kind of hopeful future...
>>[...]

I'm not familiar with _Upwingers_, but this comment about the 
the left-right continuum concept is one I agree with.

The idea of a political left and right tries to reduce all political thought
into one degree of freedom (one dimension, that is.)  IMHO, this concept
has been obsolete for years, because reality is more complicated.

One can observe how tired the idea is when one looks at how it has been
applied to different countries: in the old Communist nations, we called the
communist governments "right wing" and "conservative" because they were the 
totalitarian establishment while the dissidents and would-be reformers were
called "left wing".  But in other places, communism is considered "left wing",
and free market economics are called "right wing".  In the US, consider the
"religious" right and the libertarian right.  They seem more opposite than
equivilent to me.  (these examples are not very rigorous--apologies for
any oversimplifications.)

I propose that politics is more compicated than a single "left-right" 
continuum, and that we we should introduce some political models with
more "degrees of freedom".  For example:

"Big government" vs. "Little government"
"libertarian" vs. "paternalistic"
"deregulated" vs "regulated"
"planned economy" vs. "free market"
"religious" vs "secular"
"isolationist" vs "interventionist"
"democratic" vs "totalitarian"

(and surely other net.readers can think of even better classifications)

Now we can talk about a political philosophy in seven different ways, instead
of just saying a government is "rightist" or "leftist" or moderate.  One can 
communicate much more meaningful information with this sort of system.

-Cody Coggins <acoggins@phoenix.princeton.edu>

"Better the pride, that resides, in a citizen of the world!"
Newsgroups: alt.postmodern,sci.philosophy.meta,soc.history,talk.philosophy.misc,talk.religion.newage,rec.arts.books,sci.anthropology
From: cohen@cumuli.vmsmail.ethz.ch (Mark Cohen)
Subject: Re: William Irwin Thompson
Originator: mark@agnew
Organization: Dept. Chemistry, Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETH)
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1992 11:11:01 GMT

With reference to a previously posted essay by William Irwin Thompson
mporter@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mitchell Porter) writes:

>  The ideas that I find most intellectually provocative are the
>connections he seems to be trying to make between myth, folklore and
>esoterica, and biology and cognitive science. An example of this in the
>essay is the way in which he equates cyanobacteria with elves and

referring to the lines
>> The blue sky created so long ago by the photosynthetic activity of the
>>cyanobacteria, the elves

At the risk of getting into a terminology war I would like to point out
that in many of the ancient tutonic tales elves were simply a variant of
kobold or goblin and so would not have been regarded as beneficial. At
best I think they were regarded as pests. So to liken the cyanobacteria
to elves because they produced the blue sky is not only scientifically
incorrect (the sky on Mars is blue without oxygen) but falling into what
is a fairly modern interpretation of elves as nice guys.

Although I should perhaps be reading the deeper meaning of the essay
rather than the surface trivia, when I find the basic facts are 
wrong I assume that no correct conclusions could have been drawn from
them without a flawed reasoning. Thus the author has nothing to teach us.

Clearly is is incorrect to draw a conclusion from a single essay which
is probably out of context, however, to stir some controversy I shall
do so any way. After a brief reading it would be quite possible to say
that if this represented the firmly held views of the writer then he
is seriously confusing reality and fantasy.

Mark Cohen
cohen@cumuli.vmsmail.ethz.ch

Xref: sparky alt.postmodern:2690 sci.philosophy.meta:2559 soc.history:9361 talk.philosophy.misc:2435 talk.religion.newage:5250 rec.arts.books:20041 sci.anthropology:1373
From: gpalo@digi.lonestar.org (Gerry Palo)
Newsgroups: alt.postmodern,sci.philosophy.meta,soc.history,talk.philosophy.misc,talk.religion.newage,rec.arts.books,sci.anthropology
Subject: Re: William Irwin Thompson
Date: 12 Nov 92 17:58:44 GMT
Distribution: inet
Organization: DSC Communications Corp, Plano, TX

In article <JMC.92Nov10061848@SAIL.Stanford.EDU> jmc@cs.Stanford.EDU writes:
>This essay mixes up acute observations, unsupported dicta and mere
>metaphors.  If challenged I'll mention some of each.  The trouble with
>gurus, and I suppose he is one, is that their writings are not
>refereed, and this makes them intellectually self-indulgent.
>
>--
>John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
>*
>He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.

This is a good characterization, if the posted exerpt is representative.
I detect signs that he has read some Steiner (anthroposophy), not from
his ideology but from certain phrases and usages, such as elementals, 
zeitgeist, Dionysian and Apollonian, incarnation, reference to Grimms' 
Fairy Tales, and the characterization of outward events as symptoms of
spiritual events and transformations.  Also his somewhat arms length,
disdainful acknowledgement of the New Age movement.

His bold, designed-to-wow-the-reader assertiveness is definitely not
anthroposophical and is characteristic of a pop guru.  But I think
he has read some anthroposophy. He seems to be mostly preoccupied
with his own wonderful opinions.

Gerry Palo (73237.2006@compuserve.com)
Newsgroups: alt.postmodern
From: curtis@eos.ncsu.edu 
Subject: INFO! Btech, Po-Mo...
Originator: curtis@c00090-100lez.eos.ncsu.edu
Reply-To: curtis@eos.ncsu.edu 
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos
Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1992 00:35:35 GMT


Hi.  I'm doing a research/thesis project on popular culture concerning gaming 
based around the FASA Battletech gaming system and all of the associated
media/materials/systems that surround it.  Any information 
concerning:

	The VR battletech,
	Battletech MUDS, etc,
	GENIE's new Btech simulator game,
	Battletech newletters, groups, etc,
	Anything concerning the Btech novelizations,	
	Any battletech software/shareware,
	FTP sites, 
	resource listings, 
	newsgroups,
	and anything related that comes to mind

would be excellent.  Thankyou.

curtis@eos.ncsu.edu
--
Newsgroups: 
Distribution: world
Followup-To: 
From: curtis@eos.ncsu.edu (Abba Jones)
Reply-To: curtis@eos.ncsu.edu (Abba Jones)
Organization: Project EOS - North Carolina State University
Newsgroups: alt.postmodern,sci.philosophy.meta,soc.history,talk.philosophy.misc,talk.religion.newage,rec.arts.books,sci.anthropology
From: claird@NeoSoft.com (Cameron Laird)
Subject: Re: William Irwin Thompson
Organization: NeoSoft Communications Services -- (713) 684-5900
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1992 14:02:46 GMT
Followup-To: rec.arts.books
Keywords: William, Irwin, Thompson ;)

In article <1992Nov9.040747.24800@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu> mporter@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mitchell Porter) writes:
>After a year on the net I have yet to see anyone anywhere mention William
>Irwin Thompson's ideas. Is anyone aware of a place they are discussed?
>
rec.arts.books.
-- 

Cameron Laird
claird@Neosoft.com (claird%Neosoft.com@uunet.uu.net)	+1 713 267 7966
claird@litwin.com (claird%litwin.com@uunet.uu.net)  	+1 713 996 8546
Newsgroups: alt.postmodern,sci.philosophy.meta,soc.history,talk.philosophy.misc,talk.religion.newage,rec.arts.books,sci.anthropology
From: mporter@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mitchell Porter)
Subject: Re: William Irwin Thompson
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Distribution: inet
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 92 02:45:50 GMT

jmc@SAIL.Stanford.EDU (John McCarthy) writes:
>This essay mixes up acute observations, unsupported dicta and mere
>metaphors.  If challenged I'll mention some of each.  The trouble with
>gurus, and I suppose he is one, is that their writings are not
>refereed, and this makes them intellectually self-indulgent.
I think I agree with all of these comments. In fact, one reason I hoped to
find discussion of Thompson on the net was that I was looking for 'peer
review', so to speak, of his ideas. Ironically, he states in the same book:

  One of the basic differences, I think, between true scientists and
  scientific merchandisers or scientific hustlers is that real scientists
  have a compassionate bond with their colleagues; they do not abandon
  them to take on a messianic posture with delusions of grandeur and
  manic superiority. Such scientists are still in the social condition of
  working in labs, doing research, and trying to communicate with their
  fellows under conditions that admit the possibility of being wrong.
  There is a fellowship and a companionship to science that the New Age
  scientist is forced to abandon to become an ex-scientist. Ex-scientists 
  generally take an early success and then launch off into a commercialized
  market to speak to people who can only admire them but never understand
  them. They get used to the addiction of admiration and are willing to
  sacrifice comprehension for admiration.

PS: re the essay I posted and your three categories of proposition, I might
say that "acute observations" include war and the transformation of
culture, and perhaps the racial stereotypes of popular electronic culture;
the "unsupported dicta" ideas such as "the transformation of the
atmosphere has been accelerated by decades"; and "mere metaphors", the
paragraph about Rumpelstiltskin and the New Testament. But I would be
interested to see more of what you thought.
  The ideas that I find most intellectually provocative are the
connections he seems to be trying to make between myth, folklore and
esoterica, and biology and cognitive science. An example of this in the
essay is the way in which he equates cyanobacteria with elves and
anaerobes with elementals. In effect he seems to be saying (to me), "You
can regard the various microbial communities as cognitive systems, which
store information, interact with their environment and learn, over the
course of millions of years; and some of this history of learning, and the
history of their interactions with human beings, has passed unconsciously
into human culture as legend and esoteric lore." (He has expanded on these
ideas elsewhere.) Does anyone care to comment?

Newsgroups: alt.postmodern,alt.slack,alt.sex,talk.politics.misc,alt.religion.scientology
From: c251005@cs.UAlberta.CA (c251 TA)
Subject: Re: CAU$E$ OF WAR$
Organization: University of Alberta
Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1992 22:39:33 GMT

Hey man! Lay off, this stuff is real! And I got the bent spoons to prove it! 

Actually, we sould not make to much fun of Mr. McElwaine, after all, 
  1: He may not be serious
  2: If he is, he's still very entertaining (better than World Weekly News)
  3: If he is, he may be dangerous
                  -Bill Ross
 
Newsgroups: alt.postmodern,sci.philosophy.meta,soc.history,talk.philosophy.misc,talk.religion.newage
From: mporter@nyx.cs.du.edu (Mitchell Porter)
Subject: William Irwin Thompson
Summary: Has anyone even *heard* of him?
Keywords: William, Irwin, Thompson ;)
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix @ U. of Denver Math/CS dept.
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 92 04:07:47 GMT

After a year on the net I have yet to see anyone anywhere mention William
Irwin Thompson's ideas. Is anyone aware of a place they are discussed?



Xref: sparky alt.postmodern:2656 alt.slack:3035 alt.sex:35186 talk.politics.misc:58776 alt.religion.scientology:2495