From: currmann@pnet51.orb.mn.org (Curtis Hoffmann)
Subject: Streamline dubs, and Carl bashing
Reply-To: doi@jrd.dec.com
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Japan, R&D center
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 13:23:55 GMT

   Hmm, there's more traffic on this subject than normal, but I have yet
to see anyone echoing my sentiments.  So, I'll put forth a different
view, and selectively quote from posts left by other people.

   Basically, Japanese animation (henceforth shortened to 'anime') is in
a peculiar position, pretty much unique in the entertainment world (and
I mean that in the literal sense.)  As a foreign film industry, anime in
the western world has been almost SOLELY dependent on the fan network to
circulate anime, both fan-dubbed and non-dubbed.  (Which may relate it
to the pirating industry in India, Taiwan, and Korea.)  Most of the
translated anime shows and movies we see have been through the efforts of
fans.  And two of the things that many fans demand in a translation are:
good voice actors (which is not a problem for a subtitled show,) and a
minimum of mucking with the storyline and dialog.
   The latter situation has raised a lot of bile in the cases of the
Orange Road subs from William Chow's group, and nearly anything produced
by Streamline.  So, fans get upset both with fan, and professional,
translating efforts.  The big differences though, are:
   William Chow's efforts have gotten better over time, while
         Streamline's have not, through critical pressure from fans.
   If a fan group screws up a translation, you can expect another fan
         group to step in with their own translation, while this can't
         happen if a commercial company screws up a show.

   So, this leads into why a bad dub is worse than no dub at all.
   Simply, if any professional translating company gets the rights to a
film or show, the fan translations and summaries for it will immediately
be pulled from the net, and reliable tape traders will drop it from their
lists.  Any new fan coming into anime fandom at this point probably will
NOT be able to get his/her hands on that fan translation now.  And, most
fan clubs will veer away from that film when deciding what else to
translate.   Further, while professional subtitling leaves the dialog
and story intact for any Japanese speaker to listen to, and comment on
mistakes or changes, the same does not hold true for a dub job.
   Therefore, if Streamline gets a film, not only will the fan scripts,
and existing subbed versions distributed by tape traders, disappear --
but you probably won't see anyone else subbing that film ever in the
future.  (The only exception that I know is _Windaria_ vs _Once Upon a
Time_.)  On top of which, Streamline has been buying up the rights to
films at a faster rate, so some anime never stays 'public domain' long
enough to let fans translate it first (ie -- Nadia.)

RJ>From Ralph Jenkins
RJ>About Macek:  Boycotting him would be a nice idea, and one that
RJ>should certainly be pursued by real fans of the animation.

JR>From: ramberg@futon.SFSU.EDU (James Ramberg)
JR>Thinking on this, I'm not sure about this idea.
JR>As for a boycott, I think it'd be a bit closed minded.  A blanket
JR>boycott of Streamline stuff would do nothing to encourage Streamline
JR>to improve.

   As has been pointed out before, Streamline makes decisions with its
pocketbook.  As long as Streamline remains solvent, it will not alter
it's current translation/voice acting policies.

JR>If a company makes a good product, buy it, and tell others to buy, too.
JR>If they make a bad product, don't buy it, and tell others to avoid it also.

   That's what most people on the net have been doing.

JR>Educating the market in this way seems the most feasible way to get
JR>what you want.

   But when this is done on the net, other people either call it
'bashing,' 'bellyaching,' or 'whining.'  Further, those other people
then complain that someone is insulting their taste in anime.

JR> That's why there are so many mags and TV shows that
JR>critique various products from cars to computers.  So I think we
JR>should follow suit.  The various reviews I've seen here on releases
JR>are a good start.

   I agree, James, and what you offer is a good start, but the question
is whether you can maintain this list yourself, and if anyone else is
willing to accept your reviews without everything degrading into more
mudslinging and flaming.  (By the way, 'Editing' only has one 't'.)

Enrique Conty writes:
EC>Aside #4:  Say what you want about Streamline's 3X3 EYES, but I think
EC>only Streamline could get away with selling it for $14.95.  Ah, well.
EC>I guess you get what you paid for...

   Kind of like comparing the finest French brie to American Velveeta,
basing the argument on price alone.  Not a good thing.  The question is,
how many people are willing to buy a Streamline version of 3x3 Eyes at
that price, compared to an AnimEigo tape (with the voices and stories
intact) for twice as much?  Sigh.

From: emru@CAM.ORG (Emru Townsend)
ET>I see people spending a lot of time and effort bashing Carl Macek when
ET>they could simply ignore his product if they so choose, and move on to
ET>other things...

   Emru, like I mention above, it's one thing to ignore a bad fan sub,
because you can always get a better script from someone else, but a bad
professional dub takes that film/show effectively out of circulation.
Period.  I'm lucky -- I've got copies of all the Dirty Pair shows and
the movie is fan-subbed, and I even have fan-subbed copies of the first
few 3x3 Eyes OAVs.  So I can very easily ignore Streamline's versions.
But the same does not hold true for Nadia or the final 3x3 Eyes OAV.  I
want fan subbed copies of the entire Nadia series, which is not possible
(unless someone wants to start subbing them and circulating them with
the heightened possibility of legal action against them.)
   And things aren't going to get any better, either.
   See, I don't want ANY commercial company to take anime that I like,
and trash it.  Instead, I'd rather that the anime be left alone so that
some fan group can do a better job on it.  AnimEigo and USMC may not do
perfect jobs, and we all know about USR, but at least the viewer can
tell when the story is being mucked with, or if the dialog has been
altered too much if AnimEigo or USMC work on it.

From: umdrome@ccu.umanitoba.ca (Chris Drome)
CD>Okay, I detest Macek as much as the next guy does, but I have one
CD>question for you. Why do you keep on buying stuff from Streamline???
CD>Everybody bitches and complains about how much they hate Macek and his
CD>butcher jobs,

   Well, you can't review a product if you don't spend money on it
somehow.  And even if you aren't the one buying the tape, there are a
growing number of rental places that are.  Doesn't matter if
disillusioned fans stop buying the tapes if the circulation increases
anyway.  So, that means James Ramberg's idea is valid -- tell other
people on the net why you like, or don't like, something.  If enough
people on the net hold the same opinions of Streamline's work, and get
that message across to the sales and rental shops, there's more of a
chance to tweak Carl where he'll really feel it.  If someone on the net
calls this 'pointless bitching,' too bad.

CD>If you really want to send a message to Streamline to straighten its act,
CD>try doing it through the pocketbook. If Macek is too much of a stubborn
CD>@^%$#@^%, then obviously reasoning will not work. If you boycott all
CD>Streamline products, maybe you can bring a change about.

   But by that time, more of the titles that people really like will
have been taken out of fan circulation, and been trashed.

CD>Heh, it's not like you will die if you don't see Streamline's latest
CD>release, will you? So instead of crying about it do something instead.

   Most effectively, this can be done by supporting USMC and AnimEigo.
The more money they receive, the better the chances are that the better
anime will be bought up before Streamline can get to it.
(Unfortunately, that also reinforces the idea that fans are made of
money, and that USMC and AnimEigo can continue pricing their tapes at
$34.95, rather than dropping the retail prices like they hinted at a year
ago.)

   Then, there is the argument of buying the original Japanese tapes or
disks instead of the bad dubs.  The problems with this argument are:
   It's the same as boycotting Streamline's products: see above.
   The cost of one Japanese video tape (purchased in the states)
      represents 2 - 4 AnimEigo tapes.  So money that can be spent on a
      number of good, well-translated products, is tied up in one tape or
      disk that's not translated, and there may not be a script for it
      any more.
   If the idea is to send a message to the companies that sell and rent
      tapes in North America, they're never going to know when you buy
      something directly from Japan, or via Laser Perceptions.
   By allowing the above situations to prevail, you are promoting the
      kind of circumstances under which tape pirates flourish -- ie.
      heightened demand with a limited supply, and a good chance of making
      fast, easy money.  In other words, how many people are likely to
      buy a pirated copy of 3x3 Eyes subtitled, vs a pirated copy of
      Project A-Ko, now that both are commercially available translated??


   I'll put it this way.  I have fan-subbed copies of 3x3 Eyes, the
Orange Road Movie, Project A-Ko, Castle Cagliostro, Vampire Hunter D,
and Nolandia Affair.  My friends have purchased commercial copies of
Project A-Ko, and will get the KOR Movie the second that they can.  I
will tape over the fan-versions of those two.  But as for the stuff from
Streamline...?  And if any new fans ask me whether they should get
Castle Cagliostro, Robot Carnival, or 3x3 Eyes at the store, I'll give
them my fan dubs, and tell them to "make a back-up copy for me.  And to
keep the back-ups safe, hold on to them for me, ok?"  But any new fans
that don't know me are just going to do the obvious -- falling back on
their friendly, neighborhood pirate.
   So, is there REALLY any good reason for NOT bashing Carl and
Streamline?  Oops, I mean, telling everyone both on and off the net what
evil things Streamline has done to your favorite OAV/movie, recently?
I think not.

                                             -- Curtis H. Hoffmann
                                                Dec. 7, 1992