HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: jle@lear.bos.locus.com (John Elghani)
Subject:  JAKE LIVINI AND ISLAM  (Re: Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian boy)
Organization: LC
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 07:38:24 GMT

In article <1992Dec21.223851.6170@bony1.bony.com> jake@bony1.bony.com (Jake Livni) writes:
>In article <1992Dec19.080036.0106498@locus.com> jle@lear.bos.locus.com (John Elghani) writes:
>
>>To die for the name of God is to fight those that opress the muslims,
>
>How do you explain the Jihad that the Ayatollah declared against
>Saddam, in which 1-2 million Muslims were slaughtered?  I know that 
>Saddam isn't that religious but was he "oppressing Muslims"?

As if either peformed islam as it is supposed to be!!
If true muslims, then Saddam should not have attacked iran,
and when Saddam asked to stop the war, Khomeini should have accepted.

>>attempt to block the expansion of belief in God, fight islam
>>just because it is islam, or a fight for your very right.
>>
>>Those children that are getting killed are fighting opression and 
>>are attempting to regain their right from an occupier.
>
>Yeah, right, just like the Hamas people have been killing off the 
>PLO people in Gaza.  Are you now accusing the PLO of "oppression"?
>This would be a switch for you.

Guess again.  I believe that the PLO began as a freedom fighter
org., but later it got involved in killing innocents abroad
including its own people.  They did not line up the Palestinins
and kill them like israel does, but rather they battled in 
the camps caring less about who gets caught in the cross fire.
I do call that opression; the current PLO is far from the teachings
of true Islam, true Christianity, or true Judaism.

>
>>If you are right, muslims should kill themselves for joy, 
>
>Westerners looking at the hundreds of Muslims killed in Israel, the
>thousands killed in Jordan, the tens of thousands killed in Syria and
>the million or 2 killed in Iran/Iraq have to start wondering if it is 
>joy, after all.

Just like the westerners are ignorant about other things in the ME.
Don't the westerners view the Jews as Gold or money worshippers?
And they have all of those jew jokes floating around;  just like
they stereotype the arabs with camels, they also stereotype
the muslims with death joy (as you're doing). You like the KKK.

>>then why do they wait for israel to kill them,  
>
>Obviously, they don't.
>
>>they can put themselves on fire.
> 
>Obviously, they do.

LISTEN JAKE, before making an a** of yourself go study about islam 
then make such a stupid statment.  Only a muslim hater would
say such a thing.  WHy are you upset at the antisemites, you are
as bad as they are when you make such a stupid remark.

HOW IGNORANT YOU'VE PROVEN TO BE.

If you are right, then why do they shoot at Israeli terrorist
bombers that bomb children schools in Lebanon, they should let them
kill all the children, why stop them, its joy. 

jle


Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: souissi@ec.ecn.purdue.edu (Ridha Souissi)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.arabic
Subject: Re: The Hadith about Muslims killing the Jews / Hamas vs. Sunnah
Date: 21 Dec 92 18:25:12 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Engineering Computer Network

In article <4582@bimacs.BITNET> ehrlich@bimacs.BITNET (Gideon Ehrlich) writes:

>In this case I must support Mazen . A basic Islamic principle is
>
>        DEIN MOHAMED B'SEIF
>
>Dein       law of
>Mohamed    Mohamed
>B'seif     With a sword
>
>The principle mean: You should distribute the Islamic faith by killing
>those who refuse accepting it.
>

Excuse my ignororance on such a "basic Islamic principal",
but could you provide me a reference where Islam teaches
this? Thank you.

- Ridha
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Deportation vs. Murder
From: fedimit@wisslc1.weizmann.ac.il (Dan nabuovsky)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1993 11:18:10 GMT
Organization: Weizmann Institute of Science, Computation Center

In article <4779@copper.Denver.Colorado.EDU> aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa) writes:
>In article <1992Dec27.164331.20245@wisipc.weizmann.ac.il> fedimit@wisipc.weizmann.ac.il (Dan Nabutovsky) writes:
>>
>>   All 1600 people were members of HAMAS, which is responsible
>>for killing that man. Being member of a terroristic organisation
>>is a crime.
>
>Ah, so when do you recognize that Israel's forefathers have
>committed the biggest CRIME in history?
>
>Anisa

   I'll recognize this when somebody will prove that they were members
of Hamas, PLO, or any other terroristic organisation.

Dan.
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24589 talk.politics.soviet:10191 soc.culture.greek:12007 soc.culture.europe:10978 soc.history:10507 soc.culture.turkish:13752
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.culture.turkish
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: "George William Herbert" is confused (what else is new, anyway?)
Date: Sun, 03 Jan 93 16:42:07 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <8506@charon.cwi.nl> dik@cwi.nl (Dik T. Winter) writes:

 >> >Mutlu is one of the early aliases apparently used, and due to
 >> >the lateness of the hour when I posted this and lack
 >> >of recent review of my mail records (fun NOT) I got confused
 >> >for a second.
 >> 
 >> I really disagree with you. But maybe you know better.
 
>An admission.  

Of what?

>George Herbert was not confused, so Cosar == Mutlu == Argic!

A joke?

>Or perhaps Serdar can explain why George was not confused when he used the
>name Mutlu when he intended to use Cosar/Argic?

Because, it is a blatant lie. Now any comment?

Source: W. E. D. Allen and Paul Muratoff, "Caucasian Battlefields," 
Cambridge University Press, 1953, p. 481.

"As the Armenians found support among the Reds (who regarded the Tartars
 as a counter-revolutionary elements) the fighting soon became a massacre
 of the Tartar population." 

Source: General Bronsart wrote as follows in an article in the July 24, 
1921 issue of the newspaper "Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung:"

"Since all the Moslems capable of bearing arms were in the Turkish Army,
 it was easy to organize a terrible massacre by the Armenians against
 defenseless people, because the Armenians were not only attacking the
 sides and rear of the Eastern Army paralyzed at the front by the 
 Russians, but were attacking the Moslem folk in the region as well."

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:23818 soc.rights.human:4612
From: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.rights.human
Subject: To Livian (was Re: Israeli Expulsion of 418 Palestinians)
Date: 21 Dec 92 17:02:53 GMT
Reply-To: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Organization: North Carolina State University


I would like to point out that although you note differences between the
PLO and Hamas, the recent actions of the Israeli government have had the
effect of bringing these two groups together. According to the BBC, the
PLO and Hamas have been formally meeting in the wake of the deportations
and have been distributing statements which are jointly endorsed by the
two groups. I would also like to point out that (again, according to the
BBC) most of the deported Palestinians have stated that they wish to
return to their homes and are supporting the refusal of the Lebanese
government to accept them. 

Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU) 
Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:23862 talk.politics.soviet:9892 soc.culture.greek:11730 soc.culture.europe:10681 soc.history:10301 soc.culture.soviet:11373
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.culture.soviet
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: Re: Bulgarians - descendents of a Finnis tribe?
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 92 21:28:04 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <1992Dec21.131543.14092@polaris.utu.fi> opaloneva@abo.fi (Olli-Jukka Paloneva) writes:

>When Kemal Ataturk put a Bulgarian book "Finland - country of
>the White Lilies" as compulsory teaching material many Turks
>think that Finns are their relative nation.

"Ojukka". This must be a common comprehension level shared by all the 
members of new Finland. I don't have the faintest idea what literature 
it is to which you refer. Is this an explicit statement by some document?
Or is it your "fino" interpretation of statements in such literature?
If you have some source that is not known to the rest of the world,
I for one would be glad to hear of it. 

"...as compulsory teaching material"? Must be the joke of the month?

Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)

Xref: sparky talk.politics.mideast:24353 talk.politics.soviet:10068 soc.culture.greek:11945 soc.culture.europe:10888 soc.history:10437 soc.culture.soviet:11671
From: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,talk.politics.soviet,soc.culture.greek,soc.culture.europe,soc.history,soc.culture.soviet
Followup-To: soc.culture.turkish
Subject: It was in a half-ruined Turkish mosque.
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 92 19:43:10 EST
Reply-To: sera@zuma.UUCP (Serdar Argic)
Distribution: world

In article <1992Dec29.134900.22459@refrig.dixie.com> todd@refrig.dixie.com (Todd H.) writes:

>I disagree.  Uunet is a business, and can do anything it wants to.  The

I agree with you. Now, can you provide any examples of lying by "Appressian"
in the past?

Source: "Men Are Like That" by Leonard Ramsden Hartill. The Bobbs-Merrill
Company, Indianapolis (1926). (305 pages). 
(Memoirs of an Armenian officer who participated in the genocide of 2.5 
 million Muslim people)

"Foreword:"

"For example, we were camped one night in a half-ruined Tartar mosque, 
 the most habitable building of a destroyed village, near the border 
 of Persia and Russian Armenia. During the course of evening I asked 
 Ohanus if he could tell me anything of the history of the village and 
 the cause of its destruction. In his matter of fact way he replied, Yes, 
 I assisted in its sack and destruction, and witnessed the slaying of 
 those whose bones you saw to-day scattered among its ruins." 


Serdar Argic

                     'This war quickly developed into one of extermination. 
                      We closed the roads and mountain passes that might 
                      serve as ways of escape for the Tartars [Turks] and 
                      then proceeded in the work of extermination.'
                                                       (Ohanus Appressian)
From: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Solutions to the problem? (was Re: Sgt
Date: 30 Dec 1992 07:01:19 GMT
Organization: Australian National University
Distribution: world
Reply-To: bdm@cs.anu.edu.au
NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.203.23.70

In article 1@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu, ifaz706@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu () writes:
>In article <1hlthpINNmvi@manuel.anu.edu.au>, bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) writes:
>> In article 10894@colorado.edu, perlman@qso.Colorado.EDU (Eric S. Perlman) writes:

>>>Not exactly.  This is what the PLO charter says, but the fact is that it
>>>also says that Jews who returned to their homeland and now live in
>>>Israel must leave.  And during the Israeli war of Independence, in 1948,
>>>Hajj Amin al-Husseini, the Palestinian leader, had similarly draconian
>>>ideas:  he had worked actively with the Nazis during World War II, and
>>>shared many of their ideas concerning Jews.
 
>> Presumably you mean the Palestine National Covenant (1968).  A Palestinian
>> is defined recursively to be an Arab who lived in Palestine in 1947, or a 
>> Jew who lived there in 1917, or anyone with a Palestinian father.  That
>> would rule out the majority of Jews who lived in Palestine in 1947.
>> However, Zeyd did not mention the PLO.  He is correct about Arab 
>> proposals from earlier times, but the position hardened gradually
>> from 1948-9 to 1968.  As to al-Husseini, if you have any knowledge
>> of what "draconian ideas" he had in 1948, you are yet to prove it.

>	Brendan, you must be aware of al Hussainy's ideas during
>	the early 40's.  What do you think made him soften his 
>	attitudes after the war?

Yes, I am well informed of his war-time activities as a propagandist
and (slightly successful) collaborator with the Nazis.  However, I
believe Eric is referring to the claim that what he really wanted
was to physically exterminate the Jews of Palestine.  I think a 
claim of that magnitude ought to be supported by some sort of direct 
evidence rather than vague innuendo based on his associations, but 
that is the only evidence I have seen from any time period.
It is clear that he saw the Nazis as the best hope for nipping
the Jewish-state-to-be in the bud.  His ruthlessness and naivety
both show themselves clearly from that, but a genocidal wish does
not.  Not everyone who sought to be on the Nazi's good side in
the event of an Axis victory was party to all the Nazi's actions,
as the ex-PM of Israel could tell you.

As for the 1948 time period, Husseini's part in it has been rather
overblown.  The fact is, most of the Arabs of Palestine ignored
his call to arms (except in the direct defence of their own
villages).  Most of the "irregular" Arab forces in Palestine
during the 1947-8 war were volunteers from other countries.
I will also mention the large number of local peace agreements
signed between neighbouring Arab and Jewish villages.

>Noam

Brendan.
 




Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: aaldoubo@copper.denver.colorado.edu (Shaqeeqa)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: WHY?
Date: 31 Dec 92 08:30:23 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado at Denver

In article <1992Dec27.155842.19790@wisipc.weizmann.ac.il> fedimit@wisipc.weizmann.ac.il (Dan Nabutovsky) writes:
>>What do people want in the middle east? Why are they not satisfied?
>>Why hasn't a solution been found?
>
>   Because Moslem fanatics want to destroy Israel,
>and Israel doesn't want to be destroyed.

Actually, on the other side of the coin, because Israeli
fanatics want to destroy Palestinians, and Palestinians don't
want to be destroyed.  Understand jihad a little better now
Dan?  Ah, Dan ... a good Hebrew name.  How is Technion btw?

Anisa
	"The best kind - angry, rebellious, critical - a renegade ..."

Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
From: jle@lear.bos.locus.com (John Elghani)
Subject: Re: Sgt-Mgr Nissim Toledano found murdered
Organization: LC
Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1992 04:11:43 GMT

In article <1992Dec23.201343.7055@nysernet.org> astein@nysernet.org (Alan Stein) writes:
>hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem) writes:
>
>>> His death is on Israel's hands.  Israel did not want to exchange him
>>> for Sheikh Ahmed (who is paralyzed and going blind, which is, I presume,
>>> very humanitarian on Israel's part).
>
>He was murdered without attempting any negotiations with Israel.

Apparently Alan Stein ignores reality, or wishes to.  Hamas kidnapped
the soldier, asked for the release of Sheikh Ahmad Yaseen, israel
did a sweeping operation in Gaza ignoring the deadline set by Hamas,
then Hamas acted because IDF narrowed down on them.  WHY DID ISRAEL
IGNORE THE DEADLINE?  THEY COULD'VE RELEASED the sheikh and got
back their soldier.

>> A member of Hamas was interviewed on BBC about a
>>week ago. When asked whether he was opposed to peace with Israel, he
>>answered [I am liberally paraphrasing the response] that it was not
>>peace that they were seeking to oppose but that peace talks without a
>>show of commitment by Israel to reach a settlement was an act in futility.
>
>In other words, he might be willing to negotiate if Israel totally
>capitulated in advance.
>
>The purpose of negotiations is to bridge differences and reach an
>agreement both sides can live with.  That's impossible to do if one
>side insists on total capitulation in advance.
>
>>What are the intentions of the Israeli government? What do Israelis
>>want?
>
>Israel wants to live in peace with its neighbors.

I doubt it.  Yes, they want peace, everyone does, but peace that
the others have to pay for dearly buy giving up their stolen
homes, land, ..etc.  Of course, a bank robber wishes the bank and
the police to leave him in peace.

>A more appropriate question is what do Israel's neighbors, and the
>Palestinian Arabs, want?  They've made that perfectly clear:  the
>total destruction of Israel.

Not all.  Just like there are israelis that say the borders of
israel spans 1/2 of the arab world and it continues to be a dream.
THe people of the West Bank for example are willing to settle
for that only even though many of them lost their homes in
the Galili, Haifa, Yafa, and what have you.  

Besides, assume there is a settlement, what should happen to the
millions of Palestinians in refugee camps outside the territories
in Lebanon, Syria, ..etc; those people got replaced by European invadors,
right?   Those countries don't want foreigners either.


jle
From: zmbenhal@netcom.com (Zeyd M. Ben-Halim)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Deportation of Palestinians
Date: 2 Jan 93 10:22:10 GMT
Organization: Netcom - Online Communication Services (408 241-9760 guest)

In article <1i3bmaINNr6e@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> bv652@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Ilan Uri Woll) writes:
>>Thirdly, we can also consign to oblivion the
>>notion that the majority of the Israeli public really want a just peace
>>based on honest dealing with the Palestinians, since according to opinion
>>polls 91% of them are in accored with the deportations.
>
>I pose to you a parallel situation, in the U.S. if a non- U.S. citizen 

non-US citizens come from another country. Where do the palestinians come
from?

>commits murder, then they are also subject to deportation before a trial.
>As to the 91%.  I would first ask you to site the poll (as I've never 

I believe it was in "Yedoat Ehranot" an quoted by CNN and others.

>seen anything like that and am curious) and also remind you that as a
>people constantly under the threat of attack, many Israelis are forced
>into a defensive "us v. them" mentality.  It's very easy to judge this
>from the mentality of a nation unthreatened by foreign invasion which 
>can afford a morally absolute posture,  Israel realistically cannot.

Maybe they should ask themselves WHY they are under constant attack, could it
be something they did (or still doing) to the palestinians?

>Remember the occupied territories are under Israeli military rule, as it
>was taken in a war.  Thus, the Supreme Court can only rule whether the 
>military acted in an "arbitrary and capricious" manner (using U.S.legal
>terms).  I am unsure as to whether these Hamas members held Lebanese
>citizenship (maybe someone out there knows?), but regardless, Israel has
>the legal right to deport non-citizens.
     ^^^^^ ^^^^^
Not according to the Geneva Convention!

The deportees are stateless. Why would they hold Lebanese citizenship, they
don't live in Lebonan. 

>
>Ilan U. Woll
>
>"Do you want fries with that" Gino Torreta's future career quote.

Here, here! The TIDE has turned. He couldn't get a job with Seatlle :-)

>-- 
>---  !      ^    !\  !
> !   !     /-\   ! \ !
>___  !__  /   \  !  \!  
>                        Avoid cliches like the plague" George Shaw

Zeyd
From: jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk (Jeremy Henderson)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Deportation of Palestinians
Date: 31 Dec 92 11:57:21 GMT
Organization: Edinburgh University


[deletia]

~Israeli flag."  Henderson, you *KNOW* that's not true.  There is a very
~very wide spectrum of belief among those of us who support Israel on
~this net - from an open supporter of Kach (Makowsky), to supporters of
~Meretz/CRM (Danny Keren).  I personally place myself in the Labor camp
~though on the left of the Labor spectrum.  Do you honestly think that
~there is no disagreement that goes on in Israel, or that supporters of
~Israel will not criticize what they see as an evil therein when they
~believe it exists, especially when you have myriad posts *ON THIS NET*
~as evidence that they *DO* exactly that?  Well, Mr. Henderson, that is

Right. I think it's plain enough that people who will defend the punishment
of a group of people without any trial, on the basis simply of the beliefs
they are alleged to hold, will support just about anything. 


-- 
===Jeremy Henderson===jeremy@castle.ed.ac.uk=          

This message cost the net hundreds if not thousands of dollars.
Bloody good value if you ask me.
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.iranian
From: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Subject: Trade Opportunity
Reply-To: hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU (Brad Hernlem)
Organization: North Carolina State University
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1992 21:52:16 GMT


There is an interesting article entitled "To sell or not to sell" in the
December 1992 issue of The Middle East. The U.S. embargo on Iran is
hampering the sale of some $1 billion in passenger aircraft to Iran Air.
Iran Air is seeking to purchase 16 737-400 aircraft from Boeing to
supplement its fleet which currently is comprised of such aircraft as
Boeing 747's, 727's and 737's, as well as Fokker F-100's, Airbus A-300's
and Tu-154's on lease from Aeroflot. Iran Air is planning to purchase
Tupelov Tu-204 aircraft from Russia in 1994 if the deal with Boeing
fails. Part of the problem stems from a fine of $100,000 levied by the
U.S. Commerce Department because Iran Air inadvertently failed in 1985
to obtain an export license required when it purchased a number of
signal generators (devices used to test radios) from the Fluke company
in Washington state. 

Kourosh Iranbodi, Iran Air's corporate planning director, notes that the
average age of the fleet is 15 years and that Iran Air is only carrying
60% of the traffic that it could carry if it could obtain the equipment
it needs. Iran Air prefers the Boeing and Airbus aircraft and
American-made engines for international service.

This would be an excellent opportunity to keep jobs in the American
aircraft industry without resorting to the sale of warplanes to such
places as Saudi Arabia or Taiwan. 

The article also notes that Washington has still failed to compensate
the relatives of those killed when the USS Vincennes shot down an
Iranian Airbus in 1988. The case is still deadlocked in the
international court in The Hague. The article states "Washington is
seeking to have the case dismissed on the grounds that it falls beyond
the court's jurisdiction. To date, the relatives of those killed have
received nothing by way of compensation from the United States". 

Brad Hernlem (hernlem@chess.ncsu.EDU)
From: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast
Subject: hate mail
Date: 24 Dec 92 16:15:05 EST
Reply-To: "wayne mcguire" <wayne.mcguire@channel1.com>
Distribution: talk
Organization: Channel 1 Communications

To: Chris Metcalfe

Those with a minimal command of the English language will not be
surprised to learn that the latest edition of the American
Heritage Dictionary (the third, 1992) defines "hate mail" thus:

     Correspondence that expresses the sender's animosity,
     disapproval, or prejudice, often in offensive language.

Few people will fail to recognize that messages overflowing with
phrases like "you lying piece of garbage" qualify as hate mail,
as the term is generally understood by those who learned how to
read and speak English. I'll wager that administrators at Case
Western Reserve University mastered basic skills in English.
---
  OLX 3.01 31-2557  You could look it up.
--
Channel 1 (R)   Cambridge, MA