HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: dsuchy19@calvin.edu (Dawn Suchy)
Subject: ??? hello???
Organization: Calvin College
Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 12:57:33 GMT

Ummm... this is a really strange posting....has the traffic in here
been *really* *really* quiet or has my school quit getting soc.bi
or something?

Is there anybody out there?  I realize it's exam time and all, but...
I know some of you are out in the real world, unlike me :)

Bi relevancy?  Well... I still am :)  and heck, if Nick can post his
babbles here, so can I.

This is a general hug request, but you don't have to send them to me--
I already get enough mail, having subscribed to bi-l and bifem-l *and*
luti within the same few weeks...

Anyway...I have generally not done very well this semester in the
procrastination department, so right now I am *very* overwhelmed with
a 10 page paper on Madeleine L'Engle and another 10 pager on privacy
and ethics and all that fun stuff (it's a personal case study, and i'm
doing mine on whether or not I should have told my mother the lovely 
truth about all my lesbigay friends :) *and* two take-home exams....

Besides all this, I had a huge panic attack type thing upon facing my
19th century history exam and basically gave half an answer to the first
of two questions, and then just walked out of the exam.  So... that
generally means a zero on 40% of my grade, which means my previous A-
average don't mean diddley and I will most certainly flunk the class.

*sigh*

(btw...I'm not dumb or anything, I just have had some serious probs 
the past few days.)

But... if I get anything below a C in a class, it's curtains for my
college career, so I have no clue as to what I'm going to do about 
this.  Hmmm...maybe if I tell my mom that I'm bi she'll no longer 
care about my grades!  *laugh*...  I doubt it.  Oh well.  I guess
I just have to Face The Music, but I'm not looking forward to all of
this, as my mom's not a fun person.  Just exactly *how* do we all
define emotional abuse??  

Never mind....

Anyway... I just had to tell somebody about all this, as my roomies
are all annoying me right now too... all *four* of them.  One bathroom.
Two rooms.  Urrrr.....   I'd give *anything* to have an apartment of
my own, and very soonish...

Anyway, that's all I had to say.  Please resume your everyday tasks, and
I really hope I haven't been cut off from soc.bi or something! :)

dawnelizabeth
dsuchy19@ursa.calvin.edu

-- 
dsuchy19@ursa.calvin.edu

Just the usual.... they don't like what I say, but I say it 
anyway.  :)   
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: bbooth@x400gate.bnr.ca (Brad Booth)
Subject: Re: Attack of the Seperatists
Originator: bbooth@bcrks6
Reply-To: bbooth@x400gate.bnr.ca (Brad Booth)
Organization: BNR, Ottawa, ON, Canada
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 20:30:46 GMT


Iseult wrote:
> Only a man could read a Vikkis comment, (that women need to seek
> support from other women), as an exclusive or statement, which means
> that they should not also seek support from men.

Gee, I was guilty of that... must have been because I'm a man.  Or
maybe it's because I know of women that have had their lives 
wrecked by feminist counsellors.  Or maybe it was her term 
"another fucking man" that upset me.  If Vikki didn't intend to
make an exor comment, she did a poor job of it.

> It is not enough to claim that you have feminist principles, if you do not
> also have a feminist consciousness.  And more and more I believe in the
> politics of oppression which says that if you are not of the opressed
> all you can do is be a supporter.  Malcolm X had a lot to offer in some
> respects.

And in reverse, you can't understand what it means to be a man if you
don't also have a male consciousness.  The politics of oppression is
not to segregate but to unify those who are oppressed and those who
support them.  Does it really matter if we're black, white, green,
straight, gay, bi, Jewish, Christian, Wiccan, if we're trying to fight
oppression, whether it be bi oppression, black oppression, gay oppression
or female oppression?  If it does, then the battle is already lost.


Comments by,

    __o     Brad Booth              | "If somebody feels really good
  _`\<,_    Bell-Northern Research  |  about who they are, they don't
 (*)/ (*)   Ottawa, Ontario, Canada |  feel threatened by what other
----------  bbooth@x400gate.bnr.ca  |  people are." - Dr. M. Rubenstein
From: chris@unicorn.resun.com (Chris Von Hendy)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: Vikki's Problems With Kerry&Me
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 92 13:22:38 PST(-800)
Organization: The White Bull
Reply-To: chris@unicorn.resun.com
X-Mailer: uAccess - Macintosh Release: 1.5v3


In article <1grtpcINNstq@agate.berkeley.edu> (soc.bi), mlloyd@ocf.berkeley.edu (M. Lloyd) writes:
> 
> PS contemplated bi-content just before hitting send - erp.  Well, how's
> about the fact that there's some pretty interesting gender stuff on the
> record?  Explorations of the tarry depths of aggressive, pointedly male
> sexuality?  Or something like that.

Of course there is also the fact that my own top is MOTSS to me, while
my SO is a MOTOS.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Von Hendy            "If we shadows have offended,
Escondido, California       Think but this, and all is mended,
ncr-sd!blkhole!chris  or    That you have but slumbered here,
chris@unicorn.resun.com     While these visions did appear." Puck

Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: shelly@rachel.ibmpcug.co.uk (Shelly DelVeccio)
Subject: Re: Lurkers
Organization: The IBM PC User Group On-line services
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1992 04:02:55 GMT

In article <1h3amsINN9d9@agate.berkeley.edu> rsr@soda.berkeley.edu (Roy S. Rapoport) writes:
>
>So I may inspire different people to mail me than you, Graham ... 

My recent de-muffinning was followed by three lurker-type mail messages
(remember I've been reading for a year and know the regulars' names by
heart), and two of them were *real doozies*. So maybe you're just luckier,
Roy...;-)

-sh
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: iw@tosser.Rational.COM (The_Devine_Dolly)
Subject: Re: anti-bi's
Organization: Rational
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1992 16:47:49 GMT

rsr@soda.berkeley.edu (Roy S. Rapoport) writes:


>As for the 'urban myth about lesbians being anti-male', I suspect entirely
>too many men automatically convert "not interested in men" to "anti-men".

See ... we agree more that you can imagine.  This was the hot button
you pressed for me.  What you say is very true!

Iseult.
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: gtoal@pizzabox.demon.co.uk (Graham Toal)
Subject: another bi movie to add to the collection
Organization: Cuddlehogs Anonymous
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 23:22:12 GMT

Tenue de Soiree (on C4 in the UK tonight) - good movie with Gerard Depardieu
as a small-time crook who seduces a married couple into sex and crime.

Quite an old movie, but worth looking for if they sell things like that
in the US.

G
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: idx009@cck.coventry.ac.uk (the Crisco Kid)
Subject: Re: A question about Stephen M. Conley
Organization: Eris's Restaurant
Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1992 20:30:40 GMT

In article <Bz2F9H.65L@ibmpcug.co.uk> gtoal@ibmpcug.co.uk (Graham Toal) writes:
>In article <Bz1wG5.6FL@cck.coventry.ac.uk> idx009@cck.coventry.ac.uk (the Crisco Kid) writes:
>>Sorry, I *still* don't believe in the existence of political parties
>>with any principles other than "We want to be in power".  Alice
>>Cooper was right.
>
>Monster Raving Loony Party.  They don't want to be in power.

I don't believe them.  I'm with e e cummings on politicians.

			Kay
-- 
6'2", dark short hair, blue eyes, bisexual and horny as ....
Kay Dekker, Dept of Industrial Design, Coventry University, Coventry UK
37 Old Winnings Road, Keresley Village, Coventry   |B0 f t+ g++ k++! s+ e r p!
Phone: +44 203 838668 (work) +44 203 337865 (home) |Deflowerer-of-innocents
Newsgroups: soc.bi,soc.motss
From: gtoal@pizzabox.demon.co.uk (Graham Toal)
Subject: Re: Liberty (was something relevant about CO-2 long ago...)
Organization: Cuddlehogs Anonymous
Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1992 23:36:33 GMT

In article <BzKrGE.55r@undergrad.math.waterloo.edu> dbshapco@napier.uwaterloo.ca (Brad Shapcott) writes:
:*But*, since this is mostly IOHO (In Our Humble Opinions), has anyone ever
:seen a study on the effect of language on attitude?  It would be interesting
:to see.

Ask any linguistics department.  Or sci.lang.  As far as a know, the theory
that language influences behaviour has been totally discredited.  I think
its called the Whorf Hyothesis or something like that.  Most of the
linguists I know argue forcibly that language adapts to the needs and
environment of its users, not vice-versa.

G
From: J.W.Harley@newcastle.ac.uk (Jon Harley)
Newsgroups: soc.bi
Subject: Re: anti-bi's
Date: 17 Dec 92 18:50:11 GMT
Organization: University of Newcastle upon Tyne, UK, NE1 7RU

ktfizazi@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Kamal Tayeb Fizazi) writes:
>bjm@ceti.csustan.edu (Barb Moose) writes:
>>I just read the post regarding the terrible reaction to a bi button.
>>I have found personally that I get it from both straights and les/gays.
>>I initially thought that I would be supported from lesbians and gays, but
>>NOOOOOOOOOO....   so, what is the reason?  I am confused.  I feel now
>>like I really don't fit in, and have to re-closet from everyone.
>
>I have found that many gays resent (I can't generalize about all of them, and
>not at all about lesbians) the fact that if we want to, we can pick up and go,
>and start a socially-accepted relationship.  We don't have to endure the 
>attacks that accompany out homosexuality...  We aren't as visible if we don't
>want to be.

But that involves us going back into the closet about our sexuality, which
is just as unpleasant for bisexuals as for gays/lesbians. At least, it is
for anyone who is genuinely committed to bisexuality. Perhaps what they
really doubt is that commitment.

>For a lot of them that have been struggling to come out and feel validated in 
>society, the fact that if/when they get dumped by a bi for a member of the 
>opposite sex makes the rejection hurt more, precisely because we can also find
>within this new relationship, a comfortable social life.

Well, this has very recently happened to me, and I don't believe that the
fact that I was dumped for a MOTOS made the rejection hurt any more. Since
my ex-SO is bi, I know that gender isn't important to how we choose our
relationships; I'm sure he rejected me because I have serious personality
defects rather than becuase of my gender. On the other hand, perhaps a gay
man or a lesbian might not have that insight.

>  It is difficult for them not to resent.

I agree; I think it's all too easy for them to mix up the resentment over
being dumped with the resentment of heterosexual privilege, which is the
real cause of the problem.

>  However they are not all like that.  I have found some 
>gay/les friends to be very supportive.

Good... I have always found this. I've never had any problems with gay men
being anti-bi, at least (of course I'm not saying it doesn't happen - as I've
said before, apparently I've been lucky).

hugs,

/jon
   ___________________ ____ ________________________________________
  / -- Jonathan Harley \  /_    And they covered up the sun        //    //  //
 / J.W.Harley@ncl.ac.uk \/ /   until the birds had flown away...  // // //////
/_Phone:UK 091 222 8504__\/___________________________________///////////  //
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: cjmchale@dsg.cs.tcd.ie (Ciaran McHale)
Subject: Re: Attack of the Seperatists
Organization: DSG, Dept. of Computer Science, Trinity College Dublin
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 13:31:16 GMT

In <1992Dec15.203046.3979@bcrka451.bnr.ca>
bbooth@x400gate.bnr.ca (Brad Booth) writes:

>Iseult:
>> It is not enough to claim that you have feminist principles, if you do not
>> also have a feminist consciousness.  And more and more I believe in the
>> politics of oppression which says that if you are not of the opressed
>> all you can do is be a supporter.  Malcolm X had a lot to offer in some
>> respects.
>
>And in reverse, you can't understand what it means to be a man if you
>don't also have a male consciousness.

I'm confused as to what you mean. By saying "And in reverse" I thought
that you were going to reverse the roles, but the actual text you used
does not seem to do this.

Also, you should note that simple role reversal is not always
applicable when there is a power imbalance. In this case, I think that
I, as a queer person, probably better understands what it is like to be
straight than a straight person understands what it is like to be
queer. (I don't know if I am a stray data point in this regard or if
other queer folk feel similar, though I suspect the latter.)

>The politics of oppression is not to segregate but to unify those who
>are oppressed and those who support them.

Whenever I hear somebody say a single sentence which sarts with "The
sixties were a time of ...", "the gay community is ..." or "the
politics of oppression is ..." etc. then it immediately presses a button
in my head. To try to summarise a whole decade, a large collection of
diverse people or, in this case, the politics of oppression into a
single purpose/adjective is always a gross simplification.

*Your* politics of oppression may be as simplistic as you describe
above, but it does not necessariarly follow that others think
similarly.


Ciaran.
-- 
---- Ciaran McHale (cjmchale@dsg.cs.tcd.ie)
\bi/ Department of Computer Science, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland.
 \/  Telephone: +353-1-7021539 FAX: +353-1-6772204
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: dwells@lonestar.utsa.edu (Darren . Wells)
Subject: Re: Lurking Texans
Organization: University of Texas at San Antonio
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 18:37:30 GMT

In article <1gbjp8INNiag@cuda.add.itg.ti.com>
 winsor@geek.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (js) writes:
>In article <Bz0Hvw.B78@ibmpcug.co.uk>,
 gtoal@ibmpcug.co.uk (Graham Toal) writes:
>|> "Why do you *think* there is such a silent Texas contingency on soc.bi?"
>|>
>|> (She wasn't very impressed by how out of touch some people are with the
>|> shit bi's & queers in Texas have to put up with.  It seems pretty bad
>|> down there.)
>|>
>|> G
>|> --
>Yea, but soc.bi is only *the hippest* newsgroup on the usenet!
>
>Open invitation:
>Any muffin of anywhere may write to me and be SAFE from exposure.
>I promise.
>
>I was a dreadfully timid muffin myself two months ago.

Ditto here.  I am *very* sensitive to people's privacy, especially
when I'm told up front that it's an issue.

(especially since I'm not totally out myself)

>*supportive hugs* to all muffins
>js
Darren


Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: wendy@sundown.mil.wi.us
Subject: Re: Moms, and getting them back (was Re: Coming Out: The Report)
Organization: Nowhere
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8]
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 92 22:08:55 GMT

eleanor.j.evans (eleanor@cbnews.cb.att.com) wrote:
> >In article <1g6a6bINNnpm@agate.berkeley.edu> rsr@soda.berkeley.edu (Roy S. Rapoport) writes:

> >>It's nice to have my mom back. 

> I remember recently boasting here about the great relationship
> between my mom and I...whom the ghods will strike down, and all
> that....  I just had the ugliest fight with her last night, and
> now I'm not going home for Christmas (for the second time in
> my life--and the first time was over 10 years, and I was in
> another country---Scotland, in fact...).

> I really need a hug.  Or 20.


> Piglet...

I'm so sad for you... Here's the biggest hug I can manage. And alot of
squeezes too....

Love,

Wendy
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: cjmchale@dsg.cs.tcd.ie (Ciaran McHale)
Subject: Re: Attack of the Seperatists
Organization: DSG, Dept. of Computer Science, Trinity College Dublin
Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1992 23:39:20 GMT

In <1992Dec17.150111.9700@bcrka451.bnr.ca> bbooth@x400gate.bnr.ca
(Brad Booth) writes:
>Iseult wrote:
>> But what bothers me most, in discussions with anti-feminists, is 
>> a constant insistence that feminism is an anti-male movement.  To
>> me, feminism is a movement about women, for women. It cannot
>> be defined in terms of men. 
>
>I agree, but the feminist movement is defined in terms of men
>because that is who is seen as the oppressor.

I disagree that that any X movement is defined in terms of non-X. For
example, I don't think that any GLB (or a subset thereof) movement is
defined in terms of straight people. Similarly, I agree with Iseult that
feminism is not, and cannot be, defined in terms of men.


>> I like men, I am attracted
>> to men, I enjoy men, but more and more I find myself distancing myself
>> from men, and becoming more integrated in the lesbian community. 
>
>What's wrong with that?  If it's important to you, then there can't be 
>anything wrong with it.

I think Iseult's point (and I hope she will correct me if I am wrong)
is that her becomming more integrated in the lesbian community is not
due to an increased homoerotic attraction (a positive reason) but
rather due to increased negative feelings towards men (a negative
reason).

This is quite contrary to what Sara Hopkins said a while back:

	Why the fuck can't it be recognised that women love women
	through *positive* reasons of loving women, not necessarily
	negative reasons of hating men.


Ciaran.
-- 
---- Ciaran McHale (cjmchale@dsg.cs.tcd.ie)
\bi/ Department of Computer Science, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland.
 \/  Telephone: +353-1-7021539 FAX: +353-1-6772204
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: jcarroll@bach.udel.edu (James Carroll)
Subject: Re: Introduction, or De-Muffining
Organization: CNS User Services, University of Delaware
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 15:13:43 GMT

In article <Bz9JnM.DHp@cck.coventry.ac.uk> idx009@cck.coventry.ac.uk (the Crisco Kid) writes:
>In article <Bz8vLB.5KF@news.udel.edu> jcarroll@bach.udel.edu (Royal J Carroll) writes:
>>-James, who just happens to be listening to _Thick_As_A_Brick_ right now
>
>You know, I think I'm going to enjoy meeting this man.
>
>				Kay


I think I'm going to enjoy you meeting this man, too! <wink> *grin*

-James


-- 
I'm feeling kinda loose, I'm feeling kinda mean       | First I was a murderer
I've been feeling kinda wild since I turned seventeen | Then I was a saint
- Melissa Etheridge, "Ain't It Heavy"                 | -The Glove,
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-jcarroll@brahms.udel.edu-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-| "Like An Animal"
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: dwells@lonestar.utsa.edu (Darren . Wells)
Subject: Re: Lurking Texans
Organization: University of Texas at San Antonio
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 18:38:29 GMT

(of course, I might be gone from the net for a few days, but I promise
I will reply as soon as I can)

Darren

Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: STella@thelema.uucp (STella)
Subject: Re: Vikki's Problems With Kerry&Me
Organization: Idiosyncratic Anarchic Order
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 92 16:47:03 GMT

In article <iw.724464203@tosser> iw@tosser.Rational.COM (The_Devine_Dolly) writes:
>rsr@soda.berkeley.edu (Roy S. Rapoport) writes:
>
>>In article <iw.724439252@tosser> iw@tosser.Rational.COM (The_Devine_Dolly) writes:
>>->rsr@soda.berkeley.edu (Roy S. Rapoport) writes:
>>->
>>->> ... I don't call myself a feminist, but I _do_ believe in
>>->>feminist principles ... And heck, I could out-manbash you any day of the
>>->>week :).
>>->
>>->
>>->Clue ... BIG CLUE ...  EVEN BIGGER CLUE .... Feminism is not a 
>>->man-bashing movement.
>
>>Babe, I didn't say it was.  I did say (somewhere that you didn't include)
>>that I felt Vikki was manbashing, and that I could match her on this point.
>
>QUESTION .... was the word BABE used in this context as some form of cutesey
>irony, or was it used in the way men regularly use it to dismiss the
>opinion of a woman.

Opinion: Your tone was pure primate-pissing-contest, like much of this
thread.  In such pissing-contests, a dismissive token generally
replaces the other's name -- it may be "nigger" or "wop" if
appropriate; it may be "bitch" or "Mary".  But functionally, they're
all the same, and I don't see much value in deciding whether "boy" is
sexist or racist.  (35%/65% split decision, but who's counting?)

I think that men, challenged, tend to dismiss the opinions of ANYONE.
I _also_ think women, challenged, tend to dismiss the opinions of
ANYONE.  It's a monkey thing....  I'll bash it, but I'll bash it for
what it is -- maybe someday, when I get over doing it myself.  Till
then, I'll just try to remember that flaming people get pissy and
therefore stupid.

I have enough faith in Roy and his future growth that I'm sure you'll
find other grounds to offer him a clue -- but he's young, and smart,
and he'll learn if he lives to.

Maybe someday he'll even ask me why I called "ovaries"....

STella@xanadu.com	1016 E. El Camino Real, #302, Sunnyvale, CA 94087
STella%thelema.uucp@dec.com	Don't blame me, I voted Libertarian!
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: gtoal@ibmpcug.co.uk (Graham Toal)
Subject: Re: Coming Out: The Report (and hugs)
Organization: The IBM PC User Group, UK.
Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1992 17:51:13 GMT


js, depending on the flavour of unix you use, something like this will
fix your header problem:

put 'geek' in /etc/myname  and  'pend.ppd.ti.com' in /etc/domain

Just think of all the mail you're missing!

G
-- 
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: jsb16@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Jennifer S Broekman)
Subject: Re: Porn (was Re: Vikki's Problems With Kerry&Me)
Reply-To: jsb16@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (Jennifer S Broekman)
Organization: Columbia University
Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1992 18:03:06 GMT

In article <1gsh50INN212@agate.berkeley.edu> 
rsr@soda.berkeley.edu (Roy S. Rapoport) writes:
>Wouldn't it be just so nice to let the fanatics from both edges into one
>room, lock the door and let them annihilate each other?

Actually, the other party sponsoring the bill was a fanatical right-wing
porn-is-a-sin-against-our-God group. Apparently, both sides can cooperate
when the thought control they want to impose is the same, even if the rationale
is wildly different.

-jenneke

   Only Boys Accepting Feminism Get Kissed Meaningfully  -- Geoff Marcy
The only unnatural sexual act is that which you cannot perform. - Alfred Kinsey
		jenneke is: jsb16@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu
Newsgroups: soc.bi
From: iwatters@cix.compulink.co.uk (Ian Watters)
Subject: Re: UK soc.bi party                     
Reply-To: iwatters@cix.compulink.co.uk
Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1992 19:30:00 +0000

Colin Dente:
>> yeah, I forgot - I've also just had the running of the Manchester
>> Men's Bisexual Group dumped into my lap.  At the moment, my options
>> appear to be simple: either I'll collapse into a gibbering wreck (some
>> would say that that happened a long time ago), or I explode.

Advice from other group "runners":

  Have someone, possibly not directly connected with the group, you can talk
to about the problems (and hopefully pleasures) involved in running it.

  Be brutal about time management.  If you don't have time for something and
no-one else is easily available to do it, don't worry, just don't do it!  If
anyone complains, they volunteer to do it next time :-)

---
iwatters@cix.compulink.co.uk  |  Hon Secretary of the London Bisexual Group
                              |  c/o BM BI, London, Great Britain  WC1N 3XX
<< Never mind the LBG, *I* disagree with everything here, including this >>

>>>MATRIX version  1.21e
Newsgroups: soc.bi