HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rolfe@dsuvax.dsu.edu (Tim Rolfe)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: There are two years left!
Date: 10 Sep 92 07:41:12 GMT

In <Sep.9.04.44.29.1992.22306@athos.rutgers.edu> stovall@ficus.cs.ucla.edu (Steven Stovall) writes:
[...]
>Well, Bro Camping is betting the farm that he is right. Either we're
>outta here or his ministry is finished. But you're right the biggest
>fallout of an error here is the disillusionment of thousands, if not
>millions, of believers which we have had a lot of the last few years.
>But what if he's right?

Then obviously the Scripture is wrong about the day of the Lord coming
like a thief in the night and Bro. Camping has surpassed not just the
angels in heaven but Jesus himself, since Jesus says "But about that day or
hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son; only the
Father.  You must look out and be on the alert, for you do not know when it
will be time..." (Mk 13:32f, Smith-Goodspeed translation)

Setting a date two years in the future might make some people think that
they need to be ready for the Lord in two years --- when we must all be
ready for him not just tomorrow but one heartbeat from NOW.

"But what if he's right?" --- if we have lived the way we are called to
live by the passage from Mark (and its parallels, of course) then we will
be ready even if Bro. Camping is right.
--
                                              --- Tim Rolfe
                                           rolfe@dsuvax.dsu.edu
                                            ROLFE@SDNET.BITNET
From: dlh@dlhpfm.uucp (daniel lance herrick)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: There are two years left!
Date: 11 Sep 92 04:10:00 GMT
Organization: dlh Performance Marketing

doug@cc.ysu.edu (Doug Sewell) writes:

> And there were abundant scriptural proofs for many other times.  I'm not
> convinced, I just plan on being prepared.  NO man knows the day, nor the
> hour... 

For some time I have answered questions on this subject with, "I don't
know about the rest of you, but I am absolutely certain the Lord is
going to come for me sometime in the next hundred years."

As the only postmil in a flood of premils I needed to not be always
picking fights.

A long time ago in a town far away, the president of my InterVarsity
chapter said "I'm a pan-millenialist <pregnant pause> I believe it will
all pan out in the end."

dan
From: tom@tredysvr.tredydev.unisys.com (Tom Albrecht)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Hal Camping prediction for Second Coming, Sept. '94!!
Date: 10 Sep 92 07:43:33 GMT
Organization: Unisys, Applied Technology, Malvern, PA

In article <Sep.6.15.36.49.1992.7766@athos.rutgers.edu> believer@world.std.com (Frank G Sesco) writes:
>>I don't know if all of you are aware of it yet, but a big event just
>>happened last night on the radio.  One of the most respected, humble,
>>and trusted servants of God, Mr. Harold Camping of Family Radio, ...
>
>I guess this answered my question about the dream. 

Ah, the irony.  Harold Camping does not believe God speaks to people today
in dreams and visions.


-- 
Tom Albrecht
From: djohnson@cs.ucsd.edu (Darin Johnson)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Hal Camping prediction for Second Coming, Sept. '94!!
Date: 10 Sep 92 07:42:44 GMT
Organization: =CSE Dept., U.C. San Diego

>Some of his theory is apparently based on the view of modern Israel in
>prophecy.

This is part of my basic distrust of modern predictions.  Who is to
say that the current state called "Israel" is the biblical "Israel"?
If what is meant is a spiritual Israel, then the modern version
seriously misses the mark.

(I also fail to understand preoccupation with assisting the state of
Israel, both in the past and present, in order to hasten the second
coming.  Although the second coming is good, with it comes the great
tribulation, which is bad.  Perhaps man has so much pride that they
can't realize that God's plan can operate without their help.)
-- 
Darin Johnson
djohnson@ucsd.edu
    This is the first time I've ever eaten a patient -- Northern Exposure
From: madhav@cs.albany.edu (MadHav Vishnu Marathe)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: money and mouths
Date: 5 Sep 92 21:23:57 GMT
Organization: Computer Science Department, SUNY at Albany, Albany, NY 12222

In article <Sep.4.03.04.54.1992.29961@athos.rutgers.edu> dlhpfm!dlh@ncoast.org (daniel lance herrick) writes:

>   rpitts@emperor.gatech.edu (Richard Pitts) writes:
>
>   > If one claims to give a tithe, then it should be a tithe of gross
>   > (i.e., the first fruits), for if you tithe on net, do you only deduct
>   > taxes or do you deduct insurance, food, retirement, etc. - where does
>   > one stop?
>
>   There is no requirement to pay a tithe on that portion of the crop that
>   was destroyed by a plague of locusts.  I think after tax is a suitable
>   base for tithe calculations.  Your question about where to draw the
>   line mixes things that you control and things that are forced on you.

It is interesting to know that there is someone who considers the
purchase of food to be something that is not forced upon us.  I'll
remember that as I begin my next fast.  Mind over stomach I always say.

If it isn't obvious already, I'll state it plainly for the record.
I have to agree with Richard on this one.  Tithing on the gross is 
the only reasonable way to calculate it.  To me the only question
is what did I earn for my services.  It is my gross salary and that is 
what I tithe on.

This is not directed at Daniel in particular (I don't know him at 
all. Odds are he's a better person than I.), but people who 
calculate their tithe on their net income strike me as being
somewhat miserly. As Christians, I believe we can't afford to 
withhold our money from the Church or our chosen charity organizations.

Living in the most affluent and wasteful country in the world
frustrates and embarrasses me.  Especially when there are Christians
in this country nitpicking about whether to tithe on the net or
gross.  I could rant and rave about it for longer than anyone 
would care to read.  I will restrain myself to a few book references
though there are many others I could add.

Living More Simply  
   (Sorry, I don't have the author or publisher.)

Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger
   Ronald Sider, InterVarsity Press

More-with-Less Cookbook
   Compiled/editted by Doris Longacre, Herald Press

Joseph Richardson
(Posting against school and department policy from a friend's account.)
(I can be reached by email at 11krichardso@gallua.bitnet)
From: st0o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Steven Timm)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Hal Camping prediction for Second Coming, Sept. '94!!
Date: 9 Sep 92 07:47:43 GMT

I suppose we will not really know for sure if Mr. Camping is a prophet
until September of '94.  But it would be interesting in the meantime to 
see what Bible verses he is using to get his date.  Of course, the best 
thing is to be ready for the end of the world at any time.

Steve Timm
From: jnorris@milton.u.washington.edu (Joel Norris)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Virgin Birth - Why?
Date: 16 Sep 92 04:08:33 GMT
Reply-To: jnorris@u.washington.edu
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

Maybe Original Sin is transmitted by the father? This could explain how 
Jesus was fully human but didn't have a sinful nature. Of course, you
still need a miracle to get a Y chromosome.

Joel

--
Joel Norris			"The fear of the LORD
			 	 is the beginning of knowledge."
jnorris@u.washington.edu	 -- Proverbs 1:7
From: phantom@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (James Choi)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: on smoking and other health hazards
Date: 10 Sep 92 07:42:02 GMT
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston Illinois.

I posted a question about a week ago about church's non-smoking orientation
pointing to the fact that there is no mention about smoking in the Bible.

The summary of the answered I received is:

It is discouraged because of its effect on health.  It is not a critical
factor in being a Christian, i.e., you do not go to hell just because you
smoked.

As for the other threat to well-being such as sports:

Most people admitted that the church policy is seemingly inconsistent
(discourages smoking but encourages football playing).  And that these
details are to be decided by the individuals.

James Choi
From: early@argo.acs.oakland.edu
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: New Book
Date: 14 Sep 92 01:58:38 GMT
Reply-To: early@argo.acs.oakland.edu
Organization: Oakland University, Rochester, MI

Religion and Suicide in the African-American Community by Kevin E. Early
Forewords by Ronald L. Akers and Robert Davis

Suicide among African Americans occurs at about half the rate with
which it occurs among white Americans.  Why is the black rate of
suicide so much lower, particularly when one considers the effects of
racism and other socio-economic factors on African American?  One
answer that has been offered is that churches within the
African-American community have a greater influence then among white
Americans and that they provide amelioration of social forces that
would other- wise lead to suicide.  To date no other book has provided
an in-depth ethnographic study of the buffering effect of the black
church against suicide.  Findings from this study indicate that there
is a consensus within the black community in terms of its attitudes
and beliefs toward suicide.  This important study will be invaluable
to sociologists and others studying contemporary race relations and
social problems.

Publication Date:  October, 1992
Publisher:  Greenwood Publishing Group, Inc.
ISBN:  0-313-28470-9

For further information contact: Dr. Kevin E. Early, Department of
Sociology,Oakland University, Rochester, Michigan 48309-4401, Tel.:
313/370-2961 or Early@argo.acs.oakland.edu
From: mark@drd.com (Resident.Alien)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: cell group churches
Date: 13 Sep 92 03:35:49 GMT
Organization: DRD Corporation

What to do about children in cell group churches?  What do you
do with them in everyday life?

Our gathering together for corporate praise and prayer is a special
occasion -- a family reunion.  It is a time for rejoicing and
fellowship and sharing and catching up.  The children are excited to
spend time with their 'cousins'.  We settle down in the living room and
sing!  The kids know how to join in on that.  They listen to us share
and pray about what things the Lord is doing in us.  They hear us cry
out in pain and cry out for joy.  They watch us.  They learn.

Of course the little ones are noisy and have short attention spans.
Yes babies cry.  Ah, what music that is!  What a joy to behold a small
child while worshipping; what a miracle God has given us in children.
I hope I always have small children about.  They restore and refresh my
faith in God's faith in us :-).

There are times when we gather in the evenings, just us adults so we
can have the freedom to pray and share about topics not suitable for
little ears.  We hire babysitters.  The older children watch younger
siblings.  The little ones are put down to sleep in bedrooms.

For me, the life of the church is expressed just like my daily life is
expressed.  We teach the children about acceptable behaviour at the
table.  We teach them about acceptable behaviour as we pray.  Yes it is
noisy.  Yes children are corrected.  How else could it be?
-- 
mark.lawrence@drd.com                                     (918)743-3013
DRD Corp., 5506 South Lewis Ave., Tulsa, OK 74105         (918)745-9037 fax
From: dmnhieu@riemann.math.purdue.edu (Duy-Minh NHIEU)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Looking for choir director for correspondence
Date: 9 Sep 92 08:28:41 GMT
Reply-To: dmnhieu@riemann.math.purdue.edu (Duy-Minh NHIEU)
Organization: Purdue University

Hi:
  
   I am a new choir conductor for our Chinese Christian Fellowship and
since I am new, I would like to have some advice from those of you who
are more experienced than me.  If you are a church choir director and
are willing to correspond with me, of if you know of anyone who is
willing to, please let me know.

   I am sorry if this is not the appropriate news group to post this,
I can't think of a better newsgroup except this one and
rec.music.christian.
From: stovall@ficus.cs.ucla.edu (Steven Stovall)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: There are two years left!
Date: 9 Sep 92 08:44:30 GMT
Organization: UCLA, Computer Science Department

mvp@netcom.com (Mike Van Pelt) writes:

>Didn't the last guy who claimed to have scriptural proof of a date
>also pin it in September?  (This was a few years ago; the date came
>and went without incident.)   Why September?

I believe because the Feast of Trumpets is thought to be fulfilled
by the Rapture (the Feast of Passover was fulfilled at the Cross,
the Feast of Pentecost by the Day of Pentecost in the Upper Room,
and the Feast of Tabernacles by the return of Christ to the earth).

>My biggest problem with the date-setting is the destruction of the
>faith of people who get caught up in it.  One January 1, 1995, what
>happens to the people, perhaps new Christians whose faith is none
>too solidly grounded?  Do they say "Gee, I've been stupid", and
>stomp off into the Darkness?

Well, Bro Camping is betting the farm that he is right. Either we're
outta here or his ministry is finished. But you're right the biggest
fallout of an error here is the disillusionment of thousands, if not
millions, of believers which we have had a lot of the last few years.
But what if he's right?

_______________________________________________________________________________

steven stovall
stovall@exeter.cs.ucla.edu
(310) 825-7307
From: jte@psi.com (John Eldredge)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: The problem of pain - query
Date: 9 Sep 92 07:31:15 GMT
Organization: Performance Systems International, Inc. Reston Virginia.

In article <Sep.5.17.20.55.1992.17724@athos.rutgers.edu> miner@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu writes:
>
>Two issues here: (a) If a Being created space-time, that Being *must*
>transcend the creation.  (b) The second part of your question is just
>what I hoped, in my original posting, to stave off by admitting that
>some theologians would dispute the rather off-the-cuff proposition
>that I made.  Your question is right on target!  And I do not have an
>answer -- other than to suggest that religious language is necessarily
>as metaphorical as, ultimately, scientific language has to be, perhaps
>more so, depending on your metaphysics.
>
>What I was focussing on, though, was the ending of the Book of Job,
>which is not often discussed.  Everything was restored to Job, as if
>the evil that befell him had been a dream.  Evil is a fact.  But as
>Abraham Herschel wrote, "All facts are parables; their object is God."

The Creator is clearly outside of His creation, except when He willfully
enters into it (aka Christ Phil 2:5-11).  What is unique about this Creator,
though, is the He can create another being that in itself has some creative
capacity (consider what the 'image of God' implies).

Put another way, God can be the cause to an effect.  God can also create 
a cause to an effect.  So, while God can create Lucifer and Adam, He is
not the "author of sin" (contrary to John Calvin) or did not force them
to sin.  They each choose to sin.

So God created the earth and its inhabitants, of which were Satan, the fallen
angels and man himself.  This does not require, however, that God CAUSED sin
or ORIGINATED sin.  God's creations in this case were capable of that 
themselves.
____
Amd in relation to Job, his scenario and sufferings were quite real.  Though
the end of the book brought much in the way of restoration, his original 
children did not return to the earth.  So what did he learn?

"Then Job replied to the Lord:  'I know that you can do all things; no plan
of yours can be thwarted.  You asked, "Who is this that obscures my counsel
without knowledge?"  Surely I spoke of things I did not understand, things 
too wonderful for me to know.  You said, "Listen now, and I will speak; I
will question you, and you shall answer me."  

"My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you.  Therefore I despise 
myself and repent in dust and ashes.'"

Job 42:1-6
____
Wow.  What a lesson!

John
From: stephen@archsci.arch.su.oz.au (Stephen Tolhurst <stephen@archsci.arch.su.oz.au> )
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Southern Baptists Ensuring Orthodoxy
Date: 15 Sep 92 08:21:57 GMT
Organization: Design Computing Unit, The University of Sydney

|> Any denomination that is catholic enough to profess the two creeds has to
|> hold the Virgin Birth as an essential doctrine (at least to the extent that
|> it's true to say that Jesus was "born of the Virgin Mary"). Since I've never
|> crossed the threshold of a Baptist church on Sunday morning, I don't know
|> whether this would apply to them or not. It certainly applies to most of
|> mainstream American Protestantism.
|> 
The creeds are not complete systematic theologies.  They were drafted by the
church to exclude specific errors.  In the case of the inclusion of "born
of the Virgin Mary" this would appear to be there in order to exclude any 
view of Jesus in which he was not a true human being.  I can't think of any 
(protestant) doctrine which is derived from beilief that his mother was a virgin,
but you loose quite a lot if He wasn't a real human. (btw I beleive she was).
-- 
Stephen Tolhurst (Computer System Manager) (02) 692-3549 Fax: (02) 692-3031
Dept of Architectural Science     ACSnet: stephen@archsci.su.oz
Wilkinson Building G04            ARPA:    stephen%archsci.su.oz@uunet.uu.net
University of Sydney  2006        UUCP:    uunet!munnari!archsci.su.oz!stephen
From: Steve.Gross@lambada.oit.unc.edu (Steve Gross)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: A CLUE:  To A Riddle for For You :-)
Date: 10 Sep 92 07:35:09 GMT
Organization: Extended Bulletin Board Service

Most who have responded to my original post of a riddle for you, have
errantly guessed that Satan is the answer.  For this reason, I will give a
little clue to the riddle's answer for everyone who is thinking about it.

A Clue:   The answer is not a specific person, or angelic being.  It is
          referred to as a specific person ONCE however. 

One More:   The answer can be found somewhere in the book of Ezekial.


Happy hunting.
Steve.Gross



--
   The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of the University of
     North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the Campus Office for Information
        Technology, or the Experimental Bulletin Board Service.
           internet:  bbs.oit.unc.edu or 152.2.22.80
From: aaw4229@ultb.isc.rit.edu (A.A. Warmack )
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: There are two years left!
Date: 16 Sep 92 03:58:38 GMT
Organization: Rochester Institute of Technology

Didn't Jesus say that no one _knows_ the time?  People have been quoting
Him as saying that no one "will know" the time.  Well, if the word is,
in fact, "knows" (I don't have my concordance with me), then with the
Rapture coming before the Tribulation, it won't be a violation to know
the Last Day which is 7 years after that.  Of course, we Christians
wouldn't be here to count the days anyway.  I think this is an important
distinction.  At the very least, this doesn't seem to be Tribulation
right now at all.

If this is in fact an undiscussed point thus far, I don't think this
thread is quite dead yet.

Andy
From: seanna@bnr.ca (Seanna (S.M.) Watson)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Biology of Virgin Birth
Date: 16 Sep 92 03:36:46 GMT

First, I would like to state that I believe in the Virgin Birth
(but not Immaculate Conception or Perpetual Virginity), however,
I do not consider it to be an essential doctrine.

OFM writes:

>The difficulty with the idea of God creating half of Jesus genetic
>material is that it partially breaks his biological continuity with
>the rest of the race.  I don't absolutely reject the idea that God
>might have created human genes out of nowhere that didn't come from
>any actual human.  But it raises troubling issues in bioethics.  Do we
>consider artificially created genetic material, that didn't actually
>come from a human being, human?  Maybe.  But I'd want to think very
>carefully about it.  My "gut feeling" is that it would be more fitting
>for God to have used Joseph's genes.  This seems particularly
>appropriate when you consider that at least one of the geneologies
>goes through Joseph.  

I don't think that there is necessarily any problem of genetics (and
by extension bioethics) inherent in virgin birth.  Parthenogenesis
(which is just Greek for virgin birth, but has a somewhat different 
meaning in biology) has been observed in some species (lizards) in
which female offspring are generated from mother's ova, without the
assistance of sperm.  I don't find it too outrageous to speculate
that Jesus could have come from only Mary's ovum (or perhaps 2 fused
together to give the proper diploid number of chromosomes); the only
other thing needed would be for God to take a bit off one of the X
chromosomes to turn it into a Y, and create a male.  No additional
genetic material is required.

This reminds me of something C.S. Lewis said (probably in _Miracles_).
He postulated that all divine miracles are just an acceleration of
natural processes--God doing the same thing that usually happens in
a slightly different way.  This way, there is no conflict between God
as Creator of the natural universe and as miracle-doer.  Healings are
obvious examples of this; another Lewis gives is changing water to 
wine-- usually done with the assistance of grape plants, sunlight and 
yeast.  This view also explains why miracles are seldom unambiguously
attributable to God.
-- 
Seanna Watson   Bell-Northern Research, 
(seanna@bnr.ca) Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Opinions, what opinions?  Oh *these* opinions. | It's hard to seize the
No, they're not BNR's, they're mine.           | day when you must first
I knew I'd left them somewhere.                | grapple with the morning.
From: mjenkins@alfred.ccs.carleton.ca (Michael Jenkinson)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Christian BBSing
Date: 16 Sep 92 03:56:42 GMT
Organization: Carleton University

Carleton University journalism student (that's me) would like the
names and phone numbers of Christian computer bulletin board services.

My order of preference is: Southern Ontario, Ontario, Canada,
north-eastern US.

Anyone with info, or anyone who runs one...please e-mail me with the
details.

This is preliminary research for what I hope will be a story on
Christian BBSing.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Michael