From: adams@spss.com (Steve Adams)
Newsgroups: talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: Luke, Derrida, Papists, Luther...and Steve Adams.
Date: 16 Dec 92 15:04:32 GMT
Organization: SPSS Inc.

hartigan@ac.dal.ca writes:

>In article <Bz8BKK.EB1@spss.com>, adams@spss.com (Steve Adams) writes:
>> 
>
>Re: Gnosticism and the Paulmeister
>
>>
>> Yep.  The double-level stuff of Gnosticism was similar.  And there is even
>> a hint of it in Paul : "I give you Mother's milk because you are not ready
>> for solid food."  Now how did that get past the censors?
>
>Is that the part where Paul says that he has one teaching for the 
>spiritually mature and one for the rest of the Christians?  2 Cor. 2;16(??)
Yep...except you'll find it in I Cor 3:1-3 and esp. Heb 5:12-14.  Both
verses speak of 'milk' as opposed to 'solid food', referring to infants in
Christ as opposed to mature persons.  Seems fairly clear that Paul at least
(and whoever wrote Hebrews, Paul or not) had some concept of 'mature'
teaching as opposed to what he was giving to the Corinthians and the
Hebrews.

>The Valentinian Gnostics (who used the Thomas Gospel, I believe)
>traced their teaching back to Paul, through one of his disciples who
>claimed to have received Paul's secret teaching.  Maybe you can have
>your Paul and your Gnosticism, too!  It pleases me greatly to think
>that the silliness he was pushing on the ignorant masses of Asia Minor
>might not have been what he really believed...:)
Entirely possible.  Unfortunately, at this point, it would be pretty hard
to determine, barring discovery of some historical documents from that time
that laid this out....

>>Yep.  Of course, note that this particular criticism is in Mark - a
>>non-apostalic Gospel.  Mark also simply ends with an empty tomb, and 'they
>>were all afraid.'  Someone will likely pop in with the 'lost ending'
>>comments, but there is no evidence that is stronger than any other for that
>>position vs. others.  Why would John Mark, who was writing from Peter's
>>teachings (so it is believed) leave out the Resurection and the 40 days???
> 
>Wow...really? Tell me more! What do people think the implications of this
>are? That the Resurrection is a relatively late idea? 

Go look at any 'modern' bible (NIV, NASB, NRSV) - it'll tell you that the
ending is *not* in the earliest and most reliable texts.  There are
actually two endings (a 'long' one and a 'short' one).  The long ending is
where you find the talk about 'snakes, drinking poison, etc' as being signs
of believers.  

As for the Resurection being a 'late' idea, Paul's letters were written
staring about 50AD, and ending no later than 67AD, when he died in Rome.
Mark's Gospel is from between 50 and 65AD, with Luke & Matthew after that,
but before 90AD and John's Gospel from 90 to 120AD.  Early dates are taken
by conservatives, late dates by liberals, in general.

Paul wrote about the Resurection *before* Mark wrote his Gospel.  Luke and
Matthew wrote about the Resurection - Luke may well have gotten it from
Paul, but Matthew appears to have been Levi the tax collector, an Apostle.
John was also an Apostle, but was much later.

What was believed between 30AD and 50AD??  Good question....

>Hey...I accepted Jesus into my heart and I do the best I can to 
>live according to the Gospel message as I understand it.  
That is pretty much all that one can do...faith, not works, eh?

>Now, I don't
>really believe that accepting Jesus into my heart did anything, because
>it seems pretty clear to me that he's dead. 
Ah...here's the rub...He was raised from the dead...that's the key.

>I don't believe in Yahweh, except that I believe he is a real fictional 
>character.  
Jesus appears to have believed in Yahweh...doesn't this say anything?

>>Not Russia...it will be someone from the line of Magog (Japhethite)...mostly 
>>Germanic.  The '10 nations' won't be the EC, though.  And actually, it's a
>>3-nation coalition, with 7 hangers-on.  But hey, every century's Christians
>>have read Revelation as pertaining to their day.  Van Kampen is just one
>>more to do that.  Eventually, one of them WILL be right, when Christ does
>>come again.
>
>Fascinating...at least two totally contradictory conclusive interpretations
>of the prophetic messages of the Bible. Definition of paranoia: seeing
>patterns where none exist. 
>
>As for Christ coming again, ever wonder if the big man wasn't speaking
>metaphorically?  Read some Eckhart...wow! 
Augustine & Origen!  Leads to 'Amillenialism'...that Revelation is simply
all metaphor and not historically predictive.

>>>Christianity is a self-referential idea-complex.  We would have no
>>>trouble recognizing it as a dream except that this dream says "I am not
>>>a dream. I am real life."  See what I'm getting at? 
>>Yep....perfectly.
>
>No you don't, or you would be an even stranger type of Christian than you
>are now. :)  In other words, I think you understand this intellectually,
>but I'm not sure you see the practical implications of this point. 

I beleive you are correct....

>'Taint a theory, pilgrim. I'll let you in on a little secret, but you have to
>promise not to tell anybody. Whether or not God exists, almost all
>Christians are idolators who worship only self-projected images. There
>is a very easy way to test if someone is one of these critters.
>
>Ask them: Do you sincerely think God exists?
>
>If they say "yes," they are narcissists in disguise. A non-idolatrous
>Christian will say "I have no bloody idea, comrade, but it pleases
>me to think so."

Hmm.  So what you are saying is that to have real faith, one must doubt?
In other words, if I struggle with God's existence, then I'm doing ok?
My answer to the question is "I believe so, but can't show you any proof."
In other words, not simply 'yes'...

>> If I ever figured out *why* I believed, then I could tell you...
>
>Probably you believe because it seems to you true that God exists. 
>In other words you have certain questions, questions which are important
>to you,  which the "God" hypothesis seems to answer adequately. Sound right?

Yes.

 -Steve
--
  The opinions expressed above are those of the author and not SPSS, Inc.
                         -------------------
   adams@spss.com                                  Phone: (312) 329-3522
   Steve Adams        "Space-age cybernomad"       Fax:   (312) 329-3558