From: 4224_5201@uwovax.uwo.ca (John LaRocque)
Subject: Re: Jack "King" Kirby: ripped off by Marvel
Organization: University of Western Ont, London
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1992 19:12:19 GMT

In article <Bzq8B9.6q1@news.cso.uiuc.edu>, tpjg9663@uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Tom Johnston) writes:

> Anyone have any idea what the quoted material above is supposed to
> mean?  JLR is talking about starting a new cause based on Chaykin's
> cynical view of comics.  And then JLR reaches a conclusion that
> comics are trash.  The logic involved escapes me.  What is the new
> cause, and how does it relate to Chaykin's views?

It's Chaykin's views that comics are trash. I think he should be the
patron saint of all the jerkoffs in this group who think that work for
hire is the greatest thing since sliced bread and that artists don't
deserve anything except a pat on the back and a small thank you for
their work. In fact - he's PERFECT. A marriage made in hell.

> If you're going to post, try to do so coherently, regarless of
> what type of day you're having.  Everyone who reads your posts
> will be thankful, and less likely to dismiss your views out of
> hand.

gee thanks. you just made my day even better.

>>Jack Kirby is nothing but a construction worker. He is a hack.Comics are not 
>>art. Comics are shit. Comics will never have any relevence. Comics are for
>>pea brained children. Acclaimed works like the Watchman and the Dark Knight
>>are the last gasp of comics to gain the notoriety that it will never deserve.
>>Adults will never fully accept this medium as a medium for adults - and 
>>looking at the products out today - can you question them. Comics are an
>>assemply line - with pitiful art and stories every month from all of the
>>companies. Comics = toothpaste = construction work = blow jobs = beer =
>>shit.
> 
> It's wrong to make any all-inclusive statement about comic books. 

You mean after Robin died and Supes died and Spiderman got married in
Shea Stadium and since all the little bat-mites wrote protest letters
about Michael Keaton that ANYBODY OTHER THAN FANBOYS WILL TAKE COMICS
SERIOUSLY. If we don't love and appreciate the medium enough, nobody
else EVER will.

> Some are aimed for adults,

who think like children and write protest letters about Batman....

> some are aimed for children,

too young to meet the speculator scum....

> some are done well, some are done poorly, etc.

No-one will ever accept comics as an art form. Art Spiegalman - he didn't
deserve the award. They meant to give it to a childrens writer called
Art Spellman. And the Alex Raymond Flash Gordons - they are just a substitute
for toilet paper. This is the whole comics = blowjob philosophy - the Chaykin
philosophy espoused all too often in this group. Oh, and 'Lil Abner - praised
by Nobel Prize Winner John Steinbeck - he was drunk when he said that, and
Rene Clair - who loved both 'Lil Abner and Milton Cannon's Terry and the 
Pirates - he was probably drunk too when he praised them. No, comics are
just a corporate commodity to be thrust in the trash or bought and sold
and collector shows for obscene amounts of money to non-comics speculators
who see a chance to make money. Comics = blowjobs.

> Also, some adults will accept the medium and some will not.  Do I care? 
> Nope, I'm just going to read the books which entertain me, and skip the
> rest. 

Comics = pornography. I'm just going to "read" the porn mags which entertain
me and skip the rest.

> The equation "Comics = toothpaste ..." doesn't deserve comment.

Maybe it deserves debate.

>>Marvel, DC, Image, Aardvark-Vanaheim, Coors Beer - what't the fucking 
>>difference. 

> Believe it or not, I have a lot of respect for the Image creators for
> deciding to leave the guaranteed audience (and paychecks) of Marvel
> and go out on their own.

They didn't leave their audience. That's the whole point. They don't
need the Marvel/DC corporate cartel to find it. And (if they manage
to put their stuff out on time like Valiant does) their guaranteed
their paycheques. Remember, Will Eisner owned the Spirit AND made
moeny. Too bad everyone in his day didn't do things like Will or
Dave Sim or McFarlane today.

> The reason why your posts draw a lot of criticism, or even flames,
> is because you overstate your opinion, and try to pass it off as
> fact.  Refering to your detractors as 'weenies' just invites more
> criticism, IMHO.  As for shoving Marvel Age down people's throats,
> why not instead sample the work of whatever comic book professionals
> are being defended?  Maybe you'll find a new title you enjoy, or
> maybe you could offer some critique of the creator related to the
> creator's work, rather than condemning all comics due to some 
> obsessive belief that "All comics are X"

That's the whole idea. If you say something loudly enough, people will
believe it. Just think about Captain Marvel - forever to be considered
a "clone" of Superman because DC brayed loud enough about "copyright
infringement" that someone believed them. All of us have believed one
lie or another. In Amazing Heroes 100, Jack (Kirby) said that DC just
wanted to BUY characters then. Too bad artists were so nieve.
Captain Marvel OUTSOLD Supes. They just COULDN'T STAND COMPETITION.
So they shut them down and bought the fragging character so he could
never compete with Supes again. Wonderful people. And they would have
done it to Marvel as well - with the distribution system of the era,
its a wonder that Marvel's superhero lines survived at all (if you
discount SUPERIOR storytelling and art). BTW Captain Marvel kicks
Superman's butt when it comes to great comics from the period.
CC Beck and Eando Binder created a hero - only to be screwed by the
corporate monster known as DC-National-Time-Warner.

As for your crack about finding new titles, I have probably seen more
kinds of comic books than anybody else on this newsgroups. Some well
drawn, some not well drawn, some meant for some audiences, some for 
others. I don't believe that comics = toothpaste = porn = blowjob.
But I know that anybody who just regards comics as corporate commodities
is actively commiting themselves to the destruction of the whole comic
book genre.  

> Tom
-- 

John P. LaRocque
vader@uwo.ca
University of Western Ontario
London, Ontario


"Urk..urk..."
"Apology accepted, Captain Needa", Darth Vader
Newsgroups: rec.arts.comics.misc