From: ddeocamp@pearl.tufts.edu (DANIEL M. DEOCAMPO)
Newsgroups: sci.environment
Subject: Re: Historic levels of methane by bison (was Re: Perot ad
Date: 8 Nov 92 09:58:00 GMT
Organization: Tufts University - Medford, MA
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

In article <-1364775238snx@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au>, gil@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au (Gil Hardwick) writes...
> [stuff deleted]

>Len, there already is chaos.
> 
>Nobody trusts anyone else sufficiently to hand the responsibility of
>making global environmental decisions over to someone else. Again taking
>the risk of being accused of "amerika bashing", as merely one example
>(without going on and on about your involvement in Africa or South
>America, or the Middle East) having witnessed your military having so
>enthusiastically bombed and defoliated Vietnam while it took such a
>massive radical political effort at home to stop them from doing it,
>does not lead the world to believe that you are at all capable of any
>sort of fruitful negotiation on environmental issues.
> 
>Neither does anything I read here on sci.environment lead me to trust
>you or believe anything you have to say on the matter. None of you
>have even begun to demonstrate any consideration of other people even
>as human beings, much less partners in a global management strategy of
>the environment.

I am really surprised by that comment.  I can't speak for others, but, while I
try to keep my arguments coherent and based on known fact, I have never hedged
in this forum or any other.  My primary motivation in environmentalism is
protection of life and support of life-affirming activities.  This often leads
to conflict, particularly in a western industrial nation, but I have been
participating here, and (I hope) have never strayed from that vision.

> 
>Perhaps you are not even aware that your arguments are very probably
>being monitored by perhaps all of the 72 countries now on the Internet,
>and so have no idea how egregiously insulting some it is to people of
>other nationalities. Unless you are prepared to voluntarily reign in
>some of the idiots you have given access to this forum, I doubt that
>anyone will accept your overtures as being in good faith.

I am quite glad that Internet is international and people around the world can
see Americans discussing this issue.  Much of this is insulting, both to
Americans and people of other nations, but it is an accurate representation of
the problems in this country and how far we have to go.  Additionally, I don't
want any other countries trusting our government until it is trustworthy. 
International pressure can be a powerful tool in changing policy.

An honest look at America, and even this forum, will show you that America
cannot speak with a single voice.  While this is inconvenient and difficult,
the principle of free speech necessitates it.  Please don't take this to be an
argument in support of the heinous and murderous practices done and supported
by US government and corperations in the past, but it is unacceptable to
 "reign in" any of the idiots here.  Often, I wish it could be done, but many 
of these "idiots" wish the same of me and others.

> 
>Most countries simply do not care any more about what chaos the US
>fears, or what strategies you might want to put in place to keep your
>precious "political mechanisms for the human race to act on a global
>scale". You have managed to destroy any credibility you might have had
>as an environmentally responsible world power all by yourselves, and
>there is no point grating against what awful things poverty stricken
>villagers might be doing in their struggle just to survive.

You don't have a good understanding of America.  While I agree that we have
collectively destroyed our credibility, you cannot deny the legitimacy of
grassroots activism, honest education, and intrepid scientific investigation 
in America.

My first instinct to an attack like yours is to remain silent, because you
raise many important issues that we Americans _must_ confront if we are to
become democratic partners in the global community.  I must take issue with
your claims, though, because there are many people in this country busting
their butts to change things, and their sweat and blood are not being
recognized here.

> 
>For them, and for a lot of your own people for that matter, life's a
>bitch and then you die.
> 
>Most of us just want go it alone on our own patch, thank you very much,
>where we only have to argue against our own local opposition instead of
>the entire US military/industrial complex.
> 
>--
>Gil Hardwick                                      gil@Gilsys.DIALix.oz.au

I agree wholeheartedly, and very firmly oppose the classicly American
interventionist mindset.  But, given the environmental crisis caused by, among
other things, western "progress", how are we to address the fact that most
non-western states are trying to follow a similar path to an industrial
society (many without democracy)?

Daniel Deocampo                          Undergrad (I have an excuse for    
ddeocamp@pearl.tufts.edu                            any silly comments.)
                                         Department of Geology
---------------------|                   Environmental Studies Program
"Be gneiss to me,    |                   Tufts University
 I'm going through   |
 a lot of schist."   |
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