HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: rhorwell@crab.etwork-a (Roland Faragher-Horwell,crab)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: H. Ross Perot's proposed gas tax
Date: 7 Oct 92 18:29:43 GMT
Reply-To: rhorwell@crab.etwork-a
Distribution: na
Organization: Sun Microsystems


In article I0o@news.cso.uiuc.edu, tmkk@uiuc.edu (Khan) writes:
>
>In article <1992Oct6.163816.12733@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com> c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos) writes:
>>
>>I do not think you understood which people I meant by 'impacted the most
>>regressively'. I was not talking about the $40K/year engineer who drives
>>100 miles a day; I was talking about the $10K/year technically working
>>poor driving a beater that has to choose between Mr. Perot's tax or
>>clothes for their backs.
>
>Say, perhaps you can help your case by citing what happens to the
>"working poor" of Europe. After all, they pay $5/gallon for gas in many
>countries, the vast majority of which is tax.
>
>Then again, reporting what happens to those people might just weaken
>your case, too...

* On soapbox *

Many Europeans have access to decent mass transit (decent == reliable/accessible/robust).
In most of N. America, this is not true.  An increase in gasoline prices here does
have a much more direct effect on the 'working poor' than it would in Europe.

I am opposed to a gas tax as being promoted by Mr. Perot for this
very reason - it is going to penalize those people that can least afford it.  In fact,
it could cause all sorts of wonderful problems like people deciding to buy gasoline
instead of say, insurance.  Keep in mind that alot of the cars driven by the people
in the sub $10,000/year bracket are the most inexpensively attained - big Detroit
monsters from the 70s getting ~10mpg.  An increase in the price of gas is an increase
in these peoples' living expenses.  Those of us able to afford a car which gets 
decent mileage (or are able to afford to pay for poor mileage) have the luxury of 
being environmentally/politically correct - but the guy working at 7-11 with 2 kids,
hasn't the time or money to participate.  Giving him yet another monetary burden as
an incentive to decrease his driving or buy something more economical is not realistic.

The U.S. is built around (geographically and socially) the existence of personal 
transportation.  For this reason, taxing gasoline is comparable to taxing food - those
that have $$ don't care much, those that are poor are impacted alot and they have little
or no choice.

Without an alternative for people who have little $ and a need to get from A to B, 
a gas tax is a repressive measure that we will all wind up paying for in social costs.

If a tax associated with automotive use is going to happen, it should be a function of
the value of the vehicle - if you can afford a nice car, you must be able to afford
the tax, right? (I know - this is similar to the luxury tax concept).

* off soapbox *

Roland 
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
From: bob1@cos.com (Bob Blackshaw)
Subject: Re: H. Ross Perot's proposed gas tax
Organization: Corporation for Open Systems
Distribution: usa 
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 17:51:03 GMT

In <Bvpus3.I0o@news.cso.uiuc.edu> tmkk@uiuc.edu (Khan) writes:


>In article <1992Oct6.163816.12733@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com> c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com (Spiros Triantafyllopoulos) writes:
>>
>>I do not think you understood which people I meant by 'impacted the most
>>regressively'. I was not talking about the $40K/year engineer who drives
>>100 miles a day; I was talking about the $10K/year technically working
>>poor driving a beater that has to choose between Mr. Perot's tax or
>>clothes for their backs.

>Say, perhaps you can help your case by citing what happens to the
>"working poor" of Europe. After all, they pay $5/gallon for gas in many
>countries, the vast majority of which is tax.

No, it wouldn't weaken anything. Europe has a well subsidised public
transportation system; many more people live inner-city than here (and
more safely as well :-( ); fewer cars are used as commuting vehicles.
As to $5 a gallon (Imperial or Charlotte?, they use liters) that seems
a little high, of course I haven't driven there since '86.

>Then again, reporting what happens to those people might just weaken
>your case, too...

Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving,alt.autos.antique
From: farber@triumph.Princeton.EDU (Henry S. Farber)
Subject: Re: Get rid of old cars, was...Ross perot gas tax.....
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 13:09:51 GMT

 damong@bigwpi.WPI.EDU (Damon Francis Gentile) writes:
 

        I have a 74 Fiat and I'm eagerly awaiting the day that
        I can register it with the state of Massachusetts as
        an antique. The motor has just been rebuilt, and there
        are only 42,000 miles on the frame and I enjoy nothing
        more than going out onto a highway in the wee hours of
        the morning and opening up.... And out of the kindness 
        of my heart I stuck on a converter. A converter which
        I am by no means obligated to have. It does impede my
        performance by a a few horespower.... but I will drive
        it every damn day if I like and will pay absolutely no
        attention to such weinie things as mileage limitations
        on my antique car that I went through the agony of
        restoring myself........


Damon,

This is all well and good, but, having had an antique registered in
Massachusetts for a number of years (1960 Triumph TR3A), I can tell you
that there are serious restrictions on driving a car with antique
plates.  You essentially are only allowed to drive the car to and from
parades and car events.  This is why the insurance is low.  Now, I am
not going to tell you that I never just went for a spin, but if you do
have an accident commuting to work, I suspect that your insurance
company may refuse to pay.  In addition, I think you may also be exposed
to a ticket if you are stopped without having a "valid" destination. 
This never happened to me, but you should be aware of the chance you
will be taking.
From: spencer@swanee.ee.uwa.oz.au (Greg Spencer)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: LIDAR workings (was Re: Laser Jammer Sighting?)
Date: 16 Oct 92 00:50:45 GMT
Organization: Elec Eng, Univ of Western Australia

gilligan@bldrdoc.gov (Jonathan M. Gilligan) writes:

>Suppose for a bit of cleverness, the lidar designers use a pulsed
>laser and detect synchronously with the pulses. If they used a
>pseudorandom time-sequence of pulses, the jammer-designer would have
>to overpower the high peak power of the pulsed laser and match the
>time-sequence of the pulses to within nanoseconds. Would you really
>want to spend on the order of $50K for a jammer to avoid paying of
>order $1K in tickets?????

I don't think so Jon - watching some police work with the units - it is 
very easy to get an error READING mainly due to an error in it's
checking algorithm.  - I belive that all you have to do is to put out
noise on the same frequency and it's error checking will sut it down!
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
From: harling@miki.pictel.com (Dan Harling)
Subject: Re: Signalling one's desire to pass
Organization: PictureTel Corporation
Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1992 15:45:18 GMT

In article <1992Oct2.205451.10437@pony.Ingres.COM> kevinq@Ingres.COM (Kevin Quinn) writes:
>
>Can't speak for all the states, but in those I've had reason to study the 
>regs for all agree that passing on the right is to be frowned upon.  The laws
>state that everybody is to stay as far to the right as possible, with the
>left lane/s reserved for passing...

That is the official position in Massachusetts, but it is undermined by
the occasional signs on Rte. 128 and the interstates which read, "Thru
Traffic Keep Left".  The intention behind these signs is to prevent
people from cutting across four lanes at 80mph to take an off-ramp, but
it also practically inverts the traffic pattern: now, the folks who
don't want to be bothered hang around in the left lane(s), and people
who want to go faster must pass them on the right, which is made even
more dangerous by the fact that they share their lane with cars
entering and leaving the highway!
____________________________________________________________________________
Daniel A. Harling                        (harling@pictel.com)
PictureTel Corp.             Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of
Peabody, MA  01960                 PictureTel, but they ought to be!
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
From: W10572@maccvm.corp.mot.com (Timothy Palka)
Subject: Re: 9 Re: H. Ross Perot's proposed gas tax
Organization: Motorola
Date: 13 Oct 1992 09:23:55 CDT

------------------------- Original Article -------------------------
In article <Bvt1xG.CAw@news.cso.uiuc.edu> tmkk@uiuc.edu (Khan) writes:
>Spiros is even more unqualified. He thinks that because he was a grad
>student, he knows what it's like to be poor. What a joke! Most *truly*
>poor people would LOVE to be as rich as the typical grad student. How

at $6,000/year, grad students are below the poverty line. We also don't
get food stamps, aid to families with dependent children, etc. I had to
support two people on 6K/year for 1 1/2 year....

>many grad students live in a one bedroom apartment with 5 young
>children?

Many of my friends had children and lived off campus, not on subsidized
campus housing. Their wives could sometimes work, but not on visitor
or student visas...

How many grad students have had their gas and electricity cut
>off because they couldn't afford to pay their bills that month?

Happened to me. Watching the Bundy's on TV do bill fiddling brings back
memories...

How many
>grad students are without basic medical insurance?

I was. for four years. Had to wait to do dental work when I visited
home once in a while...

Yet he thinks he
>knows what it's like to be poor.

I don't *think*. I do know. Perhaps you could enlighten us with some
sad stories of your own? Here's some more of mine:

o	drove w/o insurance (not mandatory at the time :-))

o	borrowed to fly to interviews :-)

o	learned how to fix cars as I could not afford to give them for
	fixing. (1972 corolla, what a feeling!!!)

o	etc etc etc

o	borrowed to the extent that i had to keep living like a grad
	student well after I started working...

> I'd laugh if it weren't so profoundly
>sad.

You can laugh all you want... Many of the effects of these years (82-85)
are still with my family now... But I won't convince you I guess.

>Nevertheless, we're unlikely to get a better perspective from anyone
>here, since few poor/working poor people have net access.

Spiros

--
Spiros Triantafyllopoulos                    c23st@kocrsv01.delcoelect.com
Software Technology, Delco Electronics       striantafyll@kosds1.gm.hac.com
GM Hughes Electronics, Kokomo, IN 46904      [A Different Kind of Disclaimer]

_________________________________________________________________________

And when things got realy bad you wrote home for more money
From: frankb@hpsad.sad.hp.com (Frank Ball)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 17:04:58 GMT
Subject: Re: Get rid of old cars, was...Ross perot gas tax.....
Organization: HP Signal Analysis Division - Rohnert Park, CA
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving

In rec.autos.driving, bense@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Ron Bense) writes:

*    You can fix anything as long as you buy the manuals. Engines haven't
*    changed that much, although the electronics are a bit tougher. Then
*    again, the manuals are written so that a high school drop-out can follow
*    them, so surely you can too. The only things you really need is a good
*    multi-meter, preferably an analog one. (Digital makes it a little hard
*    to observe fluctuations, but it can be done.) All that "you need $100k
*    of computer crap t figure your car out is baloney.

It isn't just the computer crap.  I have a '62 F-100.  It is one of the
simplist vehicles on the road.  Single I-Beam front suspension with leaf
springs, no power steering, no power brakes, no air conditioning, etc, etc.
Try to find a new truck today without all that crap.  All that stuff isn't
going to keep working forever by itself.  It adds alot of maintanence to
the truck.  It gets in the way when you want to work on anything else.
It requires lots of special tools.  Working on older cars is MUCH easier
and cheaper than working on new ones.

Frank Ball   1UR-M          frankb@hpsad.sad.hp.com
Hewlett Packard   	    (707) 794-4168 work  (707) 538-3693 home
1212 Valley House Drive     
Rohnert Park CA 94928-4999  KC6WUG Seca 750 XT350 IT175 DoD#7566 I'm the NRA.

Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
From: tedebear@leland.Stanford.EDU (Theodore Chen)
Subject: Re: Stubborn Cyclists
Organization: DSG, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 92 09:30:36 GMT

>In article <1as6seINNbfr@gilligan.East.Sun.COM> mike@gilligan.East.Sun.COM (Mike Roncadori) writes:
[stuff about taxes]
>>In Virginia, your right to the road should cost $72.00, annually,
>>but it costs nothing. Therefore, the idea that a biker pays for
>>his right to the road is false, at least in Virginia. You may
>>pay income tax, but you definitely don't pay all the fees that
>>every driver does.

let's not get into taxes, but the fees that drivers pay aren't the only
source of funds for roads.  we are all paying for the roads.  and if
you look at it from the perspective of how much damage your mode of
transportation causes, it should be considerably cheaper for bicycles.
(how much damage does a typical person on a 22 lb. bike do compared
to a 3000 lb. car?)
From: mike@gilligan.East.Sun.COM (Mike Roncadori)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: stubborn cyclists thread
Date: 13 Oct 1992 07:59:55 -0400
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc., Vienna, VA.
NNTP-Posting-Host: gilligan.east.sun.com
Keywords: leave me out of it...

Hi...

A while back, I posted an article about taxes and bicyclists.
While it seemed to be a good idea of a way to make my point
at the time, I have since found that it was not.

So, this is to clear up my intent WRT that posting.

My point about the argument that "bicyclists pay their fair
share of taxes, too" was simply this:

Potentially, one can ride a bicycle down the road, and pay
absolutely no taxes whatsoever, and there is nothing illegal
about it. Therefore, I reason that bicyclists pay no taxes.

Automobile owners who choose to ride a bike pay taxes. So
do <your favorite career here>s who commute on a bike.
They do this via other means than a fee on their bicycles,
so my theory still holds that a bicycle and its rider, in
and of itself, is not taxed. It is the other parts of the
bicyclist's life that may or may not exist that are taxed.

I don't really care about the fairness of taxes, or whether
you choose to skateboard to work, etc.. I was simply trying to
point out the fallaciousness of the sentence "Bicyclists pay
their fair share of taxes.". That's all, and nothing more.

And now, if you still wish to argue this point further, please
do so via direct mail. Although, I might not reply, because I'm
probably as sick of this thread as everyone else who has no in-
terest in it.

I promise that in the future any semantics correction I choose
to point out will be done via direct email.

-- Mike

-------------------------------------------------------------
My opinions - not my employer's
From: bense@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Ron Bense)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: H. Ross Perot's proposed gas tax
Date: 13 Oct 92 16:00:02 GMT
Article-I.D.: oasys.26309
Reply-To: bense@oasys.dt.navy.mil (Ronald Bense)
Organization: Carderock Division, NSWC, Bethesda, MD

In rec.autos.driving, nau@ssesco.com (William Nau) writes:
>In article <23576@hacgate.SCG.HAC.COM>, kemasa@ghost.hac.com (Kemasa) writes:
>|> Why does it seem strange that Perot complained that the government was
>|> wasting money and then he goes on to say that we should INCREASE taxes?

>You noticed that too?  I'm just waiting too see what he says about that.

Because the debt needs to be paid also. Is this so hard to recognize?


Ron                          Think about this one (seen on a bumper sticker):
			     The road to hell is bumper-to-bumper
			     Make a U-turn to God.
The irony is priceless.
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
From: welty@cabot.balltown.cma.COM (richard welty)
Subject: Re: ERROR filled ticket? Any case?
Organization: New York State Institute for Sebastian Cabot Studies
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 18:02:03 GMT

In article <1atikhINNaur@bigboote.WPI.EDU> damong@wpi.WPI.EDU (Damon Francis Gentile) writes:
>My advice is to appeal it for the hell of it and be really creative in 
>your excuse, and be sure to mention that the officer really screwed 
>the ticket.... maybe the judge will get a good laugh, and hopefully
>you wont get that on your insurance.....

i wouldn't do this; i'd try and get ahold of the prosecutor before
i got to court, and try and plea it down in a non-confrontational
way.  if the officer doesn't show up, then often you can get an automatic
dismissal (not always, depending on the judge), if he does show up, 
then you've got a preplanned plea bargain.

be prepared to take defensive driving as part of the plea arrangement,
but don't necessarily offer to do so as part of the negotiation.  often
you can get ``minor'' speeding tickets (10 to 15 over) converted into
parking tickets or the ever popular ``failure to obey a traffic control
device'' fairly easily.

actually fighting a ticket shouldn't be done unless you have prior knowledge
of a reliable way to beat the ticket; just showing up hoping to wing it
through a defense is a sure fire way to lose while embarassing yourself
in public.

cheers,
  richard
-- 
richard welty                            518-393-7228
welty@cabot.balltown.cma.com
  ``if you can read this, mario, you're too close''
    -- bumper sticker seen on a CART safety truck
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
From: bcrulifs@eos.ncsu.edu 
Subject: Re: Stubborn Cyclists
Originator: bcrulifs@c00158-100lez.eos.ncsu.edu
Reply-To: bcrulifs@eos.ncsu.edu 
Organization: North Carolina State University, Project Eos
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 06:22:19 GMT


1as6seINNbfr@gilligan.East.Sun.COM  writes

>I don't know about Colorado, but in Virginia, cyclists have:
>
>	No plates, and therefore no registration fees
>
>	No driver's license requirement, and therefore
>	no licensing fees.
>
>	No county sticker, and therefore no county regis-
>	tration fees.
>
>	No county sticker also means no personal property
>	taxes assessed. (This one means hundreds, or perhaps
>	thousands of dollars, depending on the car. Mine have
>	been anywhere from 500 to 1100 dollars a year, dep-
>	ending on assessed value of the car).
>
>So, for each year (on a bicycle), it should be something like
>this:
>
>		2.00	($2.00 per yr for driver's license)
>		20.00	($20.00 per yr for vehicle placards)
>		35.00	(Minimum Personal Property tax)
>		20.00	(County sticker fee)
>
>In Virginia, your right to the road should cost $72.00, annually,
>but it costs nothing. Therefore, the idea that a biker pays for
>his right to the road is false, at least in Virginia. You may
>pay income tax, but you definitely don't pay all the fees that
>every driver does.
>
>-- Mike

   For some reason I'm obviously under the misconception that the road-use
taxes for the average passenger automobile are lower than the average road-use 
taxes for a commercial 18-Wheeler in part because of the relative damage each
causes to the surface to the road. Those interstate ruts aren't caused by
automobiles, but the Semi-trucks (NC in its infinite money has the DMV en-
forcement which deals primarily with interstate commercial traffic).  Try
and calculate the relative damage a 35 pound bike with a 200 pound person
on it would cause.  Get a life.  Stop knocking the most efficient mode of trans-
portation devised by man.

BC Rulifson
From: frankb@hpsad.sad.hp.com (Frank Ball)
Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1992 00:54:33 GMT
Subject: Re: Stubborn Cyclists
Organization: HP Signal Analysis Division - Rohnert Park, CA
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving

In rec.autos.driving, mike@gilligan.East.Sun.COM (Mike Roncadori) writes:

>   I don't know about Colorado, but in Virginia, cyclists have:

>   	No plates, and therefore no registration fees

>   	No driver's license requirement, and therefore
>   	no licensing fees.

>   	No county sticker, and therefore no county regis-
>   	tration fees.

>   	No county sticker also means no personal property
>   	taxes assessed. (This one means hundreds, or perhaps
>   	thousands of dollars, depending on the car. Mine have
>   	been anywhere from 500 to 1100 dollars a year, dep-
>   	ending on assessed value of the car).

>   So, for each year (on a bicycle), it should be something like
>   this:

>   		2.00	($2.00 per yr for driver's license)
>   		20.00	($20.00 per yr for vehicle placards)
>   		35.00	(Minimum Personal Property tax)
>   		20.00	(County sticker fee)

Well I have six bicycles and I don't pay any tax on any of them, but
I pay plenty of taxes on 2 cars, 3 motorcycles, and a trailer.  
Most bicyclists pay plenty of taxes, there are very few that don't
also have a car.

Frank Ball   1UR-M          frankb@hpsad.sad.hp.com
Hewlett Packard   	    (707) 794-4168 work  (707) 538-3693 home
1212 Valley House Drive     
Rohnert Park CA 94928-4999  KC6WUG Seca 750 XT350 IT175 DoD#7566 I'm the NRA.
From: beh10@duts.ccc.amdahl.com (Barry Holsinger)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving
Subject: Re: Subborn Joggers (Re: Stubborn Cyclists)
Date: 14 Oct 92 19:28:17 GMT
Reply-To: beh10@DUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Barry Holsinger)
Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA

In article <1992Oct14.135741.29625@fns-nc1.fns.com> vib@fns-nc1.fns.com (Victor Bur) writes:
>I observe a lot of people jogging on the roads
>at night while nice and EMPTY sidewalks are available. 

I don't jog, but my assumption is that the blacktop is "softer" than
concrete sidewalks, and is less stressful on your legs.   YMMV.

--
Barry Holsinger           | I ain't git'n et by no gators to make my wage!
Sunnyvale, CA             | There are better ways to make a buck in dis
beh10@DUTS.ccc.amdahl.com | nutty town!!  -Ralph Snart
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving,sci.physics
From: ivan@erich.triumf.ca (Ivan D. Reid)
Subject: Re: LIDAR workings (was Re: Laser Jammer Sighting?)
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41    
Organization: TRIUMF: Tri-University Meson Facility
Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1992 12:57:00 GMT

In article <1992Oct7.001945.17192@fs7.ece.cmu.edu>,
	 snyder@henry.ece.cmu.edu (John Snyder) writes...
>Ever since I heard about the laser speed-measuring unit, I have wondered how
>it worked.  As described on our local evening news, the police shine a
>single laser beam onto the car, and it reflects back to the unit [?]
>How is that?  Surely most/all surfaces of the car are not angled such
>as to give reflection straight back to the unit, and I would imagine
>that the laser is a fairly narrow beam.  So, how does it work?

	From what I've read, the unit sends out a sequence of pulses and times
each individual return.  However, because the spread in responses would be very
large compared to the accuracy required to deduce the speed from two readings
(e.g. compare the return time difference between one pulse that hits the
cage^H^H^H^Hcar's headlights and one that reflects from the windshield, with
the accuracy needed to determine a vehicle's speed to 1 mph in 60 for two
pulses say 1/50 sec apart), the timed returns have to fit to a straight line
within a certain accuracy over a certain period before the unit declares a
valid velocity reading.  Given this, I'm sure you can think of several passive
and active ways to bamboozle the unit -- it's not instantaneous.  A valid
return would be at very low intensity since, as you noted, a true specular
reflection is very unlikely, so car-mounted jammers have a good chance of
over-riding returns (though you can also think of ways the lidar manufacturer
can minimise this...).

> 
>Just curious ...
>[my Plymouth Horizon can scarcely go fast enough to speed,
>so I have no need to jam the gizmo]
> 
>John
>snyder@henry.ece.cmu.edu
> 
Ivan Reid, Paul Scherrer Institute, CH.     			ivan@cvax.psi.ch
GSX600F, RG250WD.	SI=2.66     "You Porsche. Me pass!"	DoD #484
Newsgroups: rec.autos.driving