From: zhimin@pender.ee.upenn.edu (Zhimin Wen)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china,soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: Will America fall?   teeter, teeter
Keywords: Chinese history
Date: 16 Apr 92 05:20:58 GMT
Followup-To: soc.culture.china
Organization: University of Pennsylvania

In article <1992Apr14.021117.15898@ulowell.ulowell.edu> cshi@cs.ulowell.edu (Chunde Shi) writes:

>In article <22691@dog.ee.lbl.gov> yjhbhc@dante.lbl.gov (Joe Huang) writes:

>>Harry Xu writes:

HX> 2. The Yuan Dynasty was the largest empire ever existed, being about twice
HX> 	the size of the Islamic Empire and the Roman Empire (which is not 

I think you exaggerated a bit, if not confused. You see, before 
Chingis Khan died, he divided the huge Mongol empire into four Khanates(each
to one of his four sons), namely, the Goden Horde in East Europe and South 
Russia, Chaihatai Khanate in central Asia, Ill Khanate in Arabia(this one was 
founded a little latter), and Mongolia(plus part of north China) itself,
with the understanding that the Khan based in Mongolia should be the grand
Khan and elected by all four Khanates. Note at this time, there were still
Song dynasty in south China and the much weakened(due to Mongol attack) Jin 
dynasty in North China. This arangement barely lasted three grand Khans,
the last one being Monge(Chingis's grandson and Kubalai's eldder brother).
When Monge died in Sichuan during battle(another saying is that he was killed
by a Song general in battlefield), Kubalai rushed back to his power base in 
Inner Mongolia and declared himslef the grand Khan without election. He was 
not recognized by the other Khanates and his another brother stationed in the 
Mongol home turf(modern Ulan Bator). Kubalai consequently marched army into 
Mongolia, and fought constant wars with his cousin in Khanate Chaihatai(with 
the dividing frontier near today's Xinjiang. After this, the four Khanates
went their own ways, with the three western Khanates eventually Islamized
and in China, Kubalai moved the capital to Da-Du(modern Beijing) and
decleared himself the founding emperor of the new Yuan dynasty(the word 
"Yuan" was taken from the Confucian classics, Yi-Jing, meaning the first,
begin) and practiced more or less the same Chinese imperial system. Although
Yuan dynasty was huge, but the area under its administeration might be not
(though I am not exactly sure about it) even bigger than the huge empire of 
Tang dynasty at its peak, or that of early Qing dynasty. Anyway, Yuan dynasty 
quickly fell due to incompetent rule, so were the two central asian
Khanates. The Goden Horde lasted much longer well into the 16 century untill
the Duke of Moscow, "Ivan the terrible" finally defeated the Khan's army. 
That was also the beginning of expansion of the Czarist Russian empire.

JH> I'm always surprised that Chinese would take credit for the Yuan

First could the author who wrote the above kindly stop using this kind of 
generalizing and lecturing language.  What Mr. Xu or Mr. Shi wrote are
opinions of nobody else but their own. 

JH> Dynasty, a regime founded by the Mongols at the cost of an estimated
JH> 35 million dead in China.

I believe it is history we are talking about here, not merely the numbers 
of deads during Mongol period. The point is that Yuan dynasty is univerally
regarded as a Chinese dynasty. Please name me one western book that says 
otherwise. If this author simply has this keen interest in the numbers of 
killing in wars, for a western educated expert of East Asia history and perheps
also world history, I think the above author should perfectly know there were
large numbers of dead in any wars, in any founding process' of any Chinese 
dynasties, or in histories of any other regions(how about the civil wars of 
Japan).  I suppose there is no need to mention how many people were killed 
during the constant wars in Europe since, say, the 16th century.

JH> In talking to friends from Korea, Russia,
JH> and Iran, I find that they regard the Mongol period as one of 
JH> destruction and horror. 

Funny that the above author used to have this habit of nitpicking out almost 
any imaginable trace of the so-called Chinese nationalistic attitude in
soc.culture.china with his seemingly enlightened attitude and superior 
knowledge. But here he seems advacating the opposite when talking about
someone else. As for the Mongol image from the above mentioned groups of people
or any other people onced under the Mongol rule, there is no doubt about 
the Mongol brutality, especially during the early Chingis days, as the poem 
says,   
        Shi2 Jian2 Bing1 Huo3 wan4 min2 chou2, 
        qian1 wan4 zhong1 wu2 yi1 er4 liu2.

But by Kubalai's time, say, during Yuan's war with southern Song,
there were strict orders of prohibiting unnecessary killings and killing of 
civilians.

However, it seems laughable for an expert of history to form his opinions
by talking to so-called friends. As far as I know, the prestige of 
Chingis lineage counts quite a lots in many above-mentioned places long 
after the Mongol rule disappeared. Otherwise, it wound be the case that
one conquerer after another kept claiming that title.

JH> However, many Chinese seem to not only 
JH> downplay the fifty years of bloodshed (1220 to 1270), but regard
JH> Mongol conquests as their own. 

Please justify the statement that "many Chinese seem to", hopefully
not again from some so-called impression of talking to friends. Although I 
didn't notice either Xu or Shi implied that, however even if they did, they 
are only their own opinions. The latter statement of the above(regard 
Mongol..) seems even more bizarre, if not pure nonsense. As I said above, 
there were four seperate Khanates even before Yuan dynasty was formed.  I am 
sure I am not as well read as this history-expert author since I have never 
niticed any books in Chinese that downplayed the Mongol brutality. All of them 
regards the short Yuan dynasty as one of misrule and full of corruptions and 
palace coups,etc. However there is no need to deny that the Yuan dynasty is 
a Chinese dynasty. I repeat my early request to ask this author to name one 
enlightendd and superior Western sources(based on which this author seems 
keeping lecturing) that says otherwise. 

Shi wrote
> Mongol rebelling, not conquest.

Well, you have some point here. As before Chingis conquered the numerious
other Mongol tribes, all of them payed tributes to the Jin dynasty. Several
of them were assigned to guard the great wall. Chingis himslef had come to pay
tributes several times in person.

JH> On another note, the anecdote of being neither holy, Roman, nor
JH> empire referred to the _Holy Roman Empire_ (9th to 16th centuries),
JH> _not_ to the Roman Empire, which was Roman and the biggest empire
JH> ever seen in Europe.

Thanks for another lecture.
Newsgroups: soc.culture.china