HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: csz55@seq1.keele.ac.uk (Christopher Wrigley)
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: Re: sex/power  -Response to Black Pearl
Date: 13 Apr 92 16:07:27 GMT
Organization: University of Keele, England


In article Black Pearl writes:
In article Christopher Wrigley writes:
=>> 
=>> Okay, I think what the problem is here, is our definition of 'power'.
=>> If you mean 'power' in the sense to make the decisions of food/ where to
=>> stay/ money usage etc. etc. then it is not 'power' as such. If you mean
=>> 'power' as in the case of a father/mother molesting their child, yes.
=>> If you mean 'power' as in ANY individual who exersises his/her authority
=>> over a child to get what s/he wants, yes. If you mean 'power' as in a
=>> child exersising authority/bribing/forcing another child to have sex,
=>> yes. If you mean 'power' as in a "genuine" paedophiliac relationship
=>> where the adult has genuine affection and love for the child, where
=>> feelings are mutual, where the child is mature enough to "understand"
=>> the situation (in the cases I have seen), I'm afraid there is no 'power'
=>
=> Why not?

I think this question is answered when you read about type '1' paeds.

As you can see from this, it seems to be a friendship where nothing is
forced, the child is able to do anything s/he wants.  eg. If the child
no longer wishes to end the relationship then it is his/her choice
(type '1')

It is a very good question that you ask, Black Pearl.... I am still
trying to make out where it applies in type '2' relationships. It does
apply under _some categories, but most certainly not all.

		Chris
__
Christopher Wrigley
                                 "Words are sometimes used to conceal
University of Keele, England        rather than reveal one's feelings."
JANET - csz55@uk.ac.keele.
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: cloister@milton.u.washington.edu (cloister bell)
Subject: Re: ho hum blues
Organization: University of Washington
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1992 18:16:31 GMT

v130py5w@ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (ReNeE) writes:

[ stuff about s.o. and his ex deleted ]

>so i'm bummed cause i don't know what to do....
>dunp him or keep him..
>i'd like to keep him but this ex shit is tearing me apart!
>ReNeE

to be frank, it sounds like you've already made your decision.  i get the
message that you want to dump him because you know you deserve someone better,
but you are afraid to leave the security of being in a relationship.  well, as
has been said, an abusive relationship is worse than none at all, and you're
right; you shouldn't have to put up with his s.o's misbehavior.  it sounds like
he is having some boundry problems too, with not being able to tell her to get
the hell out of his life.  of course, if he doesn't really want her out of his
life, then that's a real problem.  anyway, follow your heart.  i have faith
that you'll make the best decision for yourself, even if it's not the 'easy'
decision.
-- 
+-------------------------------------------------+---------------------------+
|tactical nuclear sdi stealth nsafood signature.  | cloister@u.washington.edu |
+-------------------------------------------------+---------------------------+
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: asar.311@wpi.wpi.edu (Mike) 
Subject:  Looking for advice...
Followup-To: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
X-Aps2-Version: 2.1
Organization: Anonymous Posting Service @ WPI
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 05:31:12 GMT

APS-Name: Mike

I could use some advice from anyone out there.  I was dating this girl who was raped and got pregnant about a year ago.  I've been trying to be supportive but I just don't know what to do anymore...

We don't see each other anymore.  The last time I saw her was late summer.  I try to set up times to see her to go to lunch or dinner but somehow she always becomes busy at the last minute.  I would think that she didn't want anything to do with me but then she'll call me and tell me how much she loves me and how much I mean to her. 

I know that she is trying to date other people.  I try not to take it personally; I guess I just entered her life at a bad time.  Anyway, with her trying to go out with other people I'm starting to think it would be a good time to step out of the picture.  I guess at least in some way I remind her of a past that she wants to forget.  

I would like some opinions on what I should do now.  Should I try to stay friends or should I just disappear.  I'd like to start dating again but I realize that's pretty unrealistic.

Thanks in advance.

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From: v039eag3@ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu (Amy R Phillips)
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: some heplful info.
Date: 7 Apr 92 03:49:00 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.41

Hi, this past weekend, my friend gave me some stuff which I wanted to share
with all of you....

    1.  a tape of a recent speech by Marilyn VanDerber Atler
        Miss America of 1958 and Incest Survivor

I could not believe how moving and self affirming this tape could be.  If you
do not know her story, she was assaulted by her father for many years and
had dissociated into a "day child" and "night child".  The 2 did not meet 
until she was very much older.
This tape is not graphic or explicit concerning the abuse, but goes into 
great depth about her recovery process.  
My friend, Beth left it for me at work and I started to listen to it on the
way home (3 am) and sat in my car (locked, of course) until almost 4:30.
For the first time, I had a true release of emotion and i felt so much better.
I think that anyopne here could learn from it.
If you would like a copy, contact me by e-mail and I will see what I can do!

    2.  In the western NY area there are going to be 3 candle-light 
        vigils for all victims and survivors of violent crimes. 

I would like to share the letter we have been posting....

Dear friends of the community,

I, and members of Neighbor's Outraged (N.O.), would like to extend an
invitation to a candle-light vigil in remembrance and respect to all
victims of violent crimes.  This is occuring during Victims Rights Week.
Perhaps you yourself a victim of rape, incest, domestic violence, or
murder...or perhaps you are a friend or family member of someone that 
has been touched by violent crime....please attend if possible.  The
road to recovery and life is a long, tough, journey, but it is possible.
I, myself, was a victim of a gang rape by strangers at age 13 years.
The influence of those moments of terror upon my life, the impact of
that violent, unforgiving act upon my life was more than I could ever
imagine or predict.
Please jion us won't you?  I will be speaking, but anyone is welcome
to speak.  Perhaps you wish to share your experiences as a victim or
friend/family member, or perhaps you would like to offer some words of
hope and inspiration.  Poems, music, and other creative modes of 
expression are encouraged.  I hope to see you there.
Sincerely,
Dr. Beth Stoutz

please bring a candle if you can so we can be sure to have enough

1. location   Unitarian Church Lawn (or inside)
              699 Elmwood Avenue
              Buffalo, NY
   time       7 pm to whenever
   date       May 1st, friday

2. location   Orleans County Courthouse
              Albion, NY
              7 pm
              April 30th  

3.            SUNY at Brockport
              Union Square or the ballroom
              April 27th  4-6 pm

I will be attending the first, in Buffalo and maybe others.  if anyone is 
interested and wants more information, just e-mail me.
Dr. Stoutz is a wonderful speaker and has been a great help to me in my
own recovery and i believe she could be inspirational to all.
in courage....
amy
From: rbn@ralph.rtpnc.epa.gov (Bob Boyd)
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: Re: Overt paedophilia IS sexual abuse (Re: sex/power)
Date: 16 Apr 92 20:35:14 GMT
Organization: Here & Now

Sim was talking about the effects of shame and how it can kill self-esteem.

I believe that there are 3 or 4 different components going on in myself in
dealing with wounds from the past and my present thoughts, feelings and 
actions.  (To me thoughts and feelings and actions are all behavior)    

I divide shame and guilt into 2 sub-categories.  There is healthy, appropriate
guilt and there is carried toxic guilt.  

There is appropriate shame, and there is toxic, carried shame.

To me, appropriate shame is about noticing my limitations, when I make
mistakes and I feel _mild_ embarrasment, probably blush a little.  I notice
that I'm not perfect and that it is apparent to others that I really am 
human and have limitations.

Toxic, carried shame is when I am in the belief that not only do I make 
mistakes, but "I AM A MISTAKE"  -- when I have these feelings come up 
I  feel overwhelmed, lost, crappy, etc.  The toxic shame is something that
seems to be induced by caregivers dumping their own shame onto a child.
My parents were unable to own their own imperfections and made themselves
busy about pointing out my imperfections -- which kept the attention off
of them -- I learned to believe that I was the cause of their problems
and their discomfort.  This is toxic.   

The same kind of differentiation happens with guilt.  When I do something
that violates my value system I feel guilt.  This feeling is a moderate
(although uncomfortable) one that motivates me to make amends when I am
in tune with  my feelings.  To me toxic guilt is about who I am -- I am guilt.
This feeling also is overwhelming -- and sometimes difficult to separate
from toxic shame -- especially when they both got laid on in heavy
doses, often mixed together.

I'm learning that anytime I have a feeling that sweeps over me in an 
overwhelming way -- often it is about old buried feelings and stuff that
was dumped on me to relieve my parents.  I was mom's surrogate husband and
she discharged a lot of her feeling energy on me for the 18 years I was
a child.  Sometimes it wasn't "dumped" -- it was covertly passed on -- 
stuff that was unspoken -- like sex -- it was never discussed  -- I didn't
get any help about forming relationships and learning about my sexuality
until I started working my recovery.  Before that  I did it all on my own -
with a lot of guesswork and some reading/seminars - -but no personal 
contact with someone to give me guidance.  Now I'm getting a good deal of
it -- and it really is surfacing a lot of hurt around what I so desperately
needed as a child -- and it is very sad that my parents just didn't 
have it to give -- they missed out on it too.  I get really angry when I
see how the hurt has been passed on and on and on.

--
Bob Boyd
In The Here & Now
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: johnl@gss.com (John Light)
Subject: Small clarification
Organization: Graphic Software Systems, Beaverton, OR
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1992 20:40:57 GMT

I finally caught up reading a.s.a.r., so I allow myself to post.

To the a.s.a.r. community:

Some of the difficulties experienced recently resulted from a technical
SNAFU.  My local mail and news services are held together with spit and
baling wire, and don't run smoothly.  Among the difficulties is that my
return addresses are not constructed properly for those of you who might
reply to my postings or mail.

I believe mail will reliably reach me if sent to the "johnl@gss.com", which
I try to include with each item I send.  I saw evidence that several people
sent me mail during the recent conflagration.  I only got mail from Sim.
If you feel it important that I read what you have to say, please send again.

To Prisoner:

I'm glad you stay.  I feel your posting since the conflagration have been
the most productive you have sent.  I encourage you to share more of
yourself.

Back to a.s.a.r. (with tongue in firmly in cheek):

I'm sure anybody reading a.s.a.r. recently would believe that it was hit
by an atomic flamefest.  You have such thin skins!  The actual articles
involved in "flames" was tiny, outnumbered ten to one by "metaflames".

Seriously, I have noticed an increasing number of articles finishing with
"flame disclaimers", common in other parts of the net but annoying here.

John Light
From: chrislyn@bsu-cs.bsu.edu (Tracey L. Stanchfield)
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: Re: Ladyhawke needs support, please...
Date: 16 Apr 92 15:06:19 GMT
Article-I.D.: bsu-cs.1378
Organization: Dept of CS Ball State University Muncie In

ladyhawke

my thoughts & hopes are with you...

tracey
From: csz55@seq1.keele.ac.uk (Christopher Wrigley)
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: Re: sex/power
Date: 6 Apr 92 14:46:29 GMT
Organization: University of Keele, England


From: fields@zip.eecs.umich.edu (Matthew Fields)
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: sex/power

=> My personal experience and reading of the literature was that
=> paedophiles are not interested in kids at puberty.

This is not quite true, paedophiles are diverse. There is usually a
specific age range that they each are attracted to and generally their
interest _is in pre-pubescent children although this is not always the
case.

=>  They're interested in kids 5-10, i.e. from about the age when
=> cognitive abilities make the kid susceptable to veiled threats
=> to the point where a good portion of of kids start punching and
=> screaming.

Actually, the favoured age range is 7-13 for quite a high proportion.
I do not understand what you mean for the latter part of your sentence.

=>  I'm not about to call judgement on a relationship between a 15-year
=> old and a 21-year-old, or even better, a 17-year-old and a 21-year-
=> old (adult/child in all states of the u.s.)---unless one or both were
=> extensively abused as younger kids, in which case they might be
=> advised to watch out for unexpected consequences in their current
=> relationship!

Maybe it's me, Matt.... But I don't really understand what your trying
to say here.

=> This reading and experience fits cleanly with my statement regarding
=> power.  Would someone in the health-care professions like to say
=> something here?

I'm afraid I'm not in the health-care profession, but I don't believe
what you have said in this post reflects the 'power' principle.  I have
written a response to an article about 'power' previously, if you would
like to comment.
			Chris
--
Christopher Wrigley
                                 "Words are sometimes used to conceal
University of Keele, England        rather than reveal one's feelings."
JANET - csz55@uk.ac.keele.
From: gery@midway.uchicago.edu (Black Pearl)
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: Re: sex/power  -Response to Black Pearl
Date: 14 Apr 92 20:17:24 GMT
Organization: University of Chicago

In article <2535@keele.keele.ac.uk>, Christopher Wrigley writes:
> 
> 
> In article Black Pearl writes:
> In article Christopher Wrigley writes:
> =>> 
> =>> Okay, I think what the problem is here, is our definition of 'power'.
> =>> If you mean 'power' in the sense to make the decisions of food/ where to
> =>> stay/ money usage etc. etc. then it is not 'power' as such. If you mean
> =>> 'power' as in the case of a father/mother molesting their child, yes.
> =>> If you mean 'power' as in ANY individual who exersises his/her authority
> =>> over a child to get what s/he wants, yes. If you mean 'power' as in a
> =>> child exersising authority/bribing/forcing another child to have sex,
> =>> yes. If you mean 'power' as in a "genuine" paedophiliac relationship
> =>> where the adult has genuine affection and love for the child, where
> =>> feelings are mutual, where the child is mature enough to "understand"
> =>> the situation (in the cases I have seen), I'm afraid there is no 'power'
> =>
> => Why not?
> 
> I think this question is answered when you read about type '1' paeds.

Not so far. I still say "why not?"

 
> As you can see from this, it seems to be a friendship where nothing is
> forced, the child is able to do anything s/he wants.  eg. If the child
> no longer wishes to end the relationship then it is his/her choice
> (type '1')

No, I don't see anything from this. It sounds like you are saying "where there 
is love, there is no power." What is this? Some kind of off-beat Harlequin 
romance? How does the existence of love preclude the existence of power?
How is a lack of force the same as a lack of power?  

 
> It is a very good question that you ask, Black Pearl.... I am still
> trying to make out where it applies in type '2' relationships. It does
> apply under _some categories, but most certainly not all.

Why not?

Black Pearl
From: aberson@enh.nist.gov
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: RE: ho hum blues
Date: 16 Apr 92 23:34:32 GMT
Organization: NIST

ReNee,

You've said enough that it seems he doesn't care as much for you as
you would like.  If he does care for you, he would puyt your needs
ahead of those of his ex, but he doesn't seem to do that.  The relationship
seems abusive, which is something you do not need right now.

Perhaps Black Pearl can help you out a little on this one  :-)

Sim

                                                                        __
    Sim David Aberson   Ft. Lauderdale, FL   aberson%3338.span@sdsc.edu \/
From: aberson@enh.nist.gov
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: RE: APS-Name: rubber duck
Date: 16 Apr 92 23:00:27 GMT
Organization: NIST

In a previous article, asar.320@wpi.wpi.edu wrote:
>Hello.  

Welcome.

> When it first happened, I had no sexual impulses for a long time (what's
>a long time?)  But now, I am starting to feel them again, except I don't
>want them.  I felt much safer without them.  Has anyone felt this way?  How
>do I get past this?

I'm not sure how to get past this, except to take care of yourself, pun
possibly intended.  That may be a way to safely reacquaint yourself with
your body and its urges.  From there you can gauge yourself in how to
proceed.   Sexual impulses are natural, but can be uncomfortable.  Making
them comfortable again is what is needed.

>Also, I want to know what I can do that is productive with all of the anger
>I have recently begun to feel.

Do work with rape victims.  Right letters to the editor about problems
you have experienced.  Help organize a Take Back The Night March.  Get
involved in rape survivors groups.  There are lots of things you can do with
the anger.  I hope this gives you ideas.

>I have moments when I HATE one of my best
>friends just (I think) because he is male and therefore part of the "problem".

I hope you can discuss this with him.  It will let out the anger, and bring
you closer to him.  It can help you with your issues with men to have one
close whom you can trust.  Make sure he knows you don't really hate him or
men, just the rapist, but that sometimes the anger may be directed toward
him simply because he is male.

> Other times, I just want to scream and throw things, or to physically hurt
>someone or something that can feel pain.

People have had lots of ideas here.  Go into a forest and scream.  Pound your
pillow.  Get a nerf bat and bang things at home.  There are lots of different
ways you can get that energy out.

>I know that I am a survivor, and that I will be "OK" in the long run.  Truth
>be told, I am really OK now (whatever that means).  It just backs up on me
>sometimes, and I need to integrate it into my life in a way that I make something
>grow from it which is positive - for that is the ultimate revenge.

You do sound like you will be okay.  Don't get too impatient.  It may take
time.

Advice from a man.  I hope this helps.

                                                                        __
    Sim David Aberson   Ft. Lauderdale, FL   aberson%3338.span@sdsc.edu \/
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: asar.317@wpi.wpi.edu  
Subject:  Telling
Followup-To: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
X-Aps2-Version: 2.1
Organization: Anonymous Posting Service @ WPI
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1992 18:02:53 GMT


Hello all.

I can't post from my site so I'm posting using the posting service.  My
address is at the bottem though.

I finally told my mother about my abuse.  It was the hardest thing I think
I've ever done.  I don't know if anyone ever read my first posting from
Monday cause I didn't see any replies to it.  So I'm gonna repeat some
stuff.

I was abused by my mom's boyfriend when I was 7-8 years old.  I've been
in counseling for the past 6 months.  And I finally told her.  I had so
many opportunities durring the day Friday.  We were alone almost all the
day.  But I was unable to do it till it was getting near time for me to
go home.  But I did it.  It was immeasuarably hard to get each word out.
And once I said the words, "Phil sexually abused me", she looked with
shock for a moment, and said "Oh my god, what did he do"?  And then she
held me and we both started crying.

I was a little afraid that she might not believe me.  But she did.  We
held each other and cried and talked about it for over an hour.  She felt
resposible, but I told her she wasn't, and that I loved her.  I am so proud
of myself for finally being able to tell her.

E-hugs to all.  I'm so happy!


Edward Tyrrill
cerebus@ucrmath.ucr.edu

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Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
From: fay@wpi.WPI.EDU (Peter R Fay)
Subject: Re: Coming asar-anon status?
Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute, Worcester, MA 01609-2280
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1992 02:31:21 GMT


On 12 Apr 92 18:13:25 GMT,
johnl@yang.earlham.edu said:
johnl> I remember
johnl> reading that Peter Fay, who administers to the current posting
johnl> service was being laid off soon (I hope not, though :-).  I
johnl> also remember reading about another posting service that
johnl> someone else (sorry, I can't remember your name) has created/is
johnl> working on in order to fill this coming need.  	Anyway, I'd

This anonymous posting service (asar-post@wpi.wpi.edu) will be
disappearing in a few months.  It will be taken over by twwells.com.
It is still being set up, so you may continue to send to
asar-post@wpi.wpi.edu in the meantime, and even  after the transfer,
as it will be forwarded to the new posting service for a while after
the transfer.  We will announce the transfer well in advance so
everyone will know the details...  bill@twwells.com will be the new
anon-administrator.

(By the way, I was laid off, but still have an account for a while...)

-pete

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~        Peter Fay        (fay@wpi.wpi.edu)                      ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: Laurie Mann
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery
Subject: Re: A new user/Sherri/Soprano
Date: 17 Apr 92 12:10:51 GMT
Reply-To: lmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com

Welcome, all!

>On a lighter note, my general recovery is coming along well...
>I have not done any self-mutiliation in over a month :)
>and I completely stopped drinking... 
>So...it can be done :)
>I still have my bad times... I still cry a lot and I still can't sleep 
>sometimes.  But I can see the light.

Nina, the stuff can come and go.  You still might feel worse before
you feel better.  It doesn't mean your recovery is "failing," it
just means that it does take time.

I've read a little about child-on-child abuse, but I don't think
I've ever seen a whole book devoted to it.

Sherri, you are NOT a coward.  You are looking stuff firmly in the
face.  People are only cowards when they can't face THEIR abuse.
Whether or not they choose to tell other people, especially
people they work with, is not related to "cowardice."

Soprano, thanks for YOUR posting.  Way to go.

* NeXT: lmann@vineland.pubs.stratus.com  GEnie,AOL: Laurie.Mann *
***    I guess we all have to fall apart a little, once in    ***
***   a while, in order to rebuild our dreams.  Tappan King   ***
Newsgroups: alt.sexual.abuse.recovery