HDTenEightyP/NetNews huggingface dataset:
From: roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig)
Subject: Re: clarinet arcana and transposition
Originator: news@nimaster
Organization: Princeton University
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 19:32:03 GMT

In article <1992Aug26.181851.27979@aero.org> dgolber@aero.org (Dave Golber) writes:

>>A Clarinet teacher I had in college said that in Stravinsky's
>>_The History of a Soldier_, a very hard piece (I can't recall if
>>it requires an A along with the Bflat clarinet), you have to fake
>>a run or two because the fingering was too difficult for the tem-
>>po of the piece. He said that Mitchell Lurie had faked it in a
>>recording of "History" (one the the more fameous recordings at
>>that time). If my teacher had had time to change to the A clar-
>>inet at that point he said it would have been easy to make the run 
>>cleanly.

>Another example is the Prokofiev "Overture on a Hebrew Theme", which
>(I believe) Benny Goodman commissioned from him.  Very charming, lovely
>piece, not TOO difficult ... except for this passage near the end,
>in which he writes a fast increasing-tempo passage using the WORST
>fingerings on the instrument.

Indeed; certain sequences of notes are idiomatic to some instruments,
less so to others.

A favorite example of mine is in the first movement of the Spohr
Clarinet Concerto in C Minor (#1).  This is a striking work, btw, and
deserves attention as an example of early (1808) Romanticism in a
not-too-Beethovenian style.  

At any rate, the end of the first solo is, as one would expect, a bravura
passage.  Alas, Spohr was a violinist, and simply wrote some crossed-strings
passagework that's in an appropriate *range* for clarinet, but otherwise
hopelessly difficult.  (Crossed-strings means that you play four notes in
a row, one on each string; you can cover a lot of ground that way, and
don't need to do a lot of fast fingering.  Not easy, but highly effective
on the violin.  See the cadenza to the Mendelssohn Concerto for a good
example.)  The passage makes what would otherwise be playable, at least
for practice, almost impossible; because those sequences of intervals *are*
really hard on the clarinet.

Roger
>My theory is that he did this deliberately in order to keep amateurs
>from playing the piece!
>
>Dave Golber
>
>
From: maverick@cs.berkeley.edu (Vance Maverick)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Borgesian Conundra [Was:  Manners, children please...]
Date: 26 Aug 1992 01:03:32 GMT
Organization: CS Division, UC Berkeley
Distribution: world
NNTP-Posting-Host: mahogany.cs.berkeley.edu

In article <1992Aug26.002200.9100@fid.morgan.com>, steve@fid.morgan.com (Steve Apter) writes:
|> In article <1992Aug25.042342.25193@uniwa.uwa.edu.au>, diarmuid@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Diarmuid Pigott) writes:
|> > 
|> > [Cage] could not have sat down and written a serious, tonally
|> > unambiguous, conventionally orchestrated, popular symphony.
|>
|> [various ways for Cage to write the Diabelli Variations] 

Borges, indeed.  No symphony can be guaranteed to be popular as it is
being written; therefore Cage could not pass the Pigott test without
writing, note for note, somebody else's *already popular* symphony. 
Pierre Menard, anyone?

	Vance
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: meyer@uuisis.isis.org (Katherine Meyer)
Subject: Re: clarinet arcana
Organization: International Shared Information Service (Ottawa)
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 92 21:42:31 GMT



> meyer@uuisis.isis.org (Katherine Meyer) wrote:
> > the Mozart Clarinet concerto sounds really nice on the Bass horn
> > (originally written for Basset horn, Anton Stadler) since it has
> > a much darker and mellower sound.  
> 
> I thought what happened was that Mozart started writing it for basset horn
> but then changed his mind - there never was a complete version for basset
> horn.
> 

Apparently Anton Stadler, the clarinettist and basset-hornist who Mozart
wrote this Concerto for, had a clarinet that had an extended range (it
played down to something like a third below that of the modern day
clarinet).  The concerto was adapted by the publisher so that it could be
played by the normal range clarinets at the time.  More recently the piece
has been adapted for basset-horn.  I believe, as Jack Campin pointed out
already, that Mozart did start out writing this Concerto for the Basset-horn
and rewrote it for the clarinet.  There have been all sorts of suggestions
made about the beginnings of this Concerto.  There is an article about this
in one of the instrument journals (I think it was the Galpin Society
Journal).  
Mozart did write some other things for Anton Stadler to play on the
Basset-horn.
Apologies for the erroneous posting about the Mozart.

Katherine.

MEYER@UUISIS.ISIS.ORG
> INTERNET: jack@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk or via nsfnet-relay.ac.uk    FAX: 041 330 49
> BANG!net: via mcsun and uknet     BITNET: via UKACRL    UUCP: jack@glasgow.uu

Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: allan@maths.su.oz.au (Allan Steel)
Subject: Re: Parsifal
Keywords: wagner,parsifal,boulez
Organization: School of Mathematics and Statistics, University of Sydney
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 04:09:37 GMT

In <1992Sep3.073505.12640@sci.kun.nl> gerritse@sci.kun.nl (Bart Gerritse) writes:

>In a magazine I saw an announcement of the release of Boulez' Bayreuth
>live-recording of Parsifal. Can anybody on the net please tell me how this
>one compares to Karajan, Solti, Barenboim or others?

>Bart Gerritse

At least it's got a tenor who can sing - James King - in contrast
to Peter Hoffman on Karajan.  It was a relevation to me to actually
hear the part of Parsifal sung properly.

Allan
--
+------------------------------------------------------------+
| Allan Steel                          allan@maths.su.oz.au  |
| School of Mathematics and Statistics, University of Sydney |
+------------------------------------------------------------+
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: jwa@vipunen.hut.fi (Jyrki J Wahlstedt)
Subject: Funeral music?
Organization: Helsinki University of Technology, Finland
Distribution: rec.music.classical
Date: 31 Aug 92 19:48:22

  I hope this doesn't sound morbid, but:

  There have been many requests for wedding music. It just came to my
  mind, that on listening to one piece of music sometimes ago, I
  caught myself thinking: "This is music I would like them play in
  my funeral."

  Has anyone else had thoughts of same kind? Please email me your
  favourites and I post a summary later on. I could use nearly all of
  Bach, particularly his cantatas, works for solo string (violin, cello),
  for organ. Some works from other composers also.

  PS. The piece I was listening, if someone wants to know, was the
      last movement of Mahler's 9th symphony.
--
!
!	Jyrki Wahlstedt
!		Jyrki.Wahlstedt@hut.fi
!
!  Our life is no dream, but it should and will perhaps become one.
!
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: meyer@uuisis.isis.org (Katherine Meyer)
Subject: Re: Looking for music guide book
Organization: International Shared Information Service (Ottawa)
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 92 01:40:48 GMT

rhoenes@PICASSO.OCIS.TEMPLE.EDU (Richard Hoenes) writes:

> 
> I have the Penguin Guide to Compact Discs which I find useful.
> However, I am now looking to get a guide that gives a description
> of what is being played, not how well it is played/recorded.
> That is, something that will tell me if a piece is firey with
> an astounding crescendo, or a soft romantic piece, or whatever.
> 
> Richard

Well, there is a book bu (Jonathoalled Listen to the Music o
looks pretty interesting.  It is now available in paperback, the hardback
version came out in the mid 1980's.  There are also numerguides to
orchestral music that shouldewhere in or around the music theory theory
sectiy section of your University's library.  They have short writeups (like
program notes) of most popular orchestral works.  There are also similar
guides to chamber music (I just can't think of the titles right now and
there are not as many of these).  These guides tell you about the
"performance" aspect a little of its background without givyou too much
infoinformation overload.  If you want more detail you can browse through
the ML410 section (biographies etc) or check out the MT section for the
detailed analysis guides.
Please excuse any typoes.  This system is starting to act crazy so I think
I'll quit here.
Katherine
MEYER@UUISIS.ISIS.ORG
From: yoshi@hpjsdo.kobe.hp.com (Kazuo Yoshizaki)
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1992 09:44:16 GMT
Subject: STEINWAY
Organization: APPO/Japan Solution Development Operation,Kobe
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical

Sometime ago, I read in the paper that Steinway was going to build a plant
in Japan. Does anybody know when it will start operation and where the plant is?

K. Yoshizaki - JSDO/Yokogawa Hewlett Packard
From: SLC@HARVARDA.HARVARD.EDU (Steven Cantor)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: studio der fruhen musik
Date: 31 Aug 92 16:11:17 GMT
Article-I.D.: mammoth.9208311531.AA13262
Organization: Harvard University

there were a number of recordings made by the group studio der fruhen musik
(thomas binkley, andrea von ramme, etc.) for the reflexe series (german emi,
i think) of early music recordings.  i found many of these recordings to be
quite wonderful and was wondering if anyone knew whether or not any of these
had been/will be reissued on cd?
thanks,
s.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven Cantor
SLC@HARVARDA.HARVARD.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: hafner@ifi.unizh.ch (Michel Hafner)
Subject: Re: Korngold
Organization: University of Zurich, Department of Computer Science
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 92 15:26:25 GMT

In article <1992Sep4.012324.6746@spang.Camosun.BC.CA> dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker) writes:
>In article <JWA.92Sep3020651@vipunen.hut.fi> jwa@vipunen.hut.fi (Jyrki J Wahlstedt) writes:
>>In article <1992Sep2.180017.15220@spang.Camosun.BC.CA> dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker) writes:
>>
>>>It depends what you mean by 'second rate'. I, for instance, consider
>>>R. Strauss a second rate composer (as he did himself).
>>
>>  This is off the point (Korngold), but couldn't resist: I think that a
>>  second rate composer (was he serious? I have not seen this statement in
>>  its context) could possibly have written music like Metamorphosen.
>
>I believe the exact remark was (paraphrased) "I am a first-class
>second rate composer" (or it could have been first-rate second-class).
>I cannot remember where I read this though, can anyone else
>confirm/deny this?
>
>I will grant you that Metamorphosen is a great work, but does that
>mean we have to categorise (should we wish to) any composer who
>produces a single great work as a first-class composer?

Since when are there globally calibrated greatness-meters? I dare to claim
that Strauss composed even more than one great work. My personal greatness-
meter produces high peaks when I listen to "Till Eulenspiegel" or "Vier letzte
Lieder". But of course, my poor apparatus is not globally calibrated...
								M.H.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: icking@gmd.de (Werner Icking)
Subject: Re: Joining the dots ...
Organization: GMD, Sankt Augustin, Germany
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1992 15:42:58 GMT

In <1992Sep1.151929.29297@Princeton.EDU> roger@crux.Princeton.EDU (Roger Lustig) writes:

>--In the Musikgeschichte in Bildern series, _Schriftbild der mehrstimmigen
>Musik_.  Even if you speak no German, the plates are worth it.  Many of
>them are partially transcribed.  Beautiful book, as are many of the others
>in this E. German series.  I don't know about current availability.

But I :-). From VLB (that's the german BIP):
                 ^                      ^
 Musikgeschichte in Bildern.

   Tl 5: Besseler, Heinrich /Guelke, Peter: Schriftbild der
   mehrstimmigen Musik. 2. Aufl. 1981. 184 S., 145 Abb.,
   Notenbeisp. - 34 x 24 cm. 'Deutscher Vlg f. Musik' Ln DM 63,-
   (ISBN 3-370-00191-8)

Notenschrift /Bildband


>--A book on 20th C notation.  I forget the name of that German classic...

Not that (deals with Mittelalter != 20th C :-)?
  Apel, Willi: Die Notation der polyphonen Musik. (900-1600).
    (Ausg. Leipzig 1962) 3. Aufl. 1982. XX,527 S., zahlr. Faks. u.
    Notenbeisp., 62 Notenbeisp. im Anh. - 17 x 24,5 cm. 'Breitkopf
    & Haertel Taunusst.' Ln DM 92,- (ISBN 3-7651-0180-X)

 Mittelalter /Musik
 Musikgeschichte
 Notenschrift
 Polyphonie

But may be that?
 Notation Neuer Musik. Beitr. v. Dahlhaus, Carl /Ligeti,
    Gyoergy /Haubenstock-Ramati, Roman /Kagel, Mauricio /Brown,
    Earle /Palm, Siegfried /Kontarsky, Aloys /Caskel, Christoph.
    2.Aufl. 1970. 116 S., zahlr. Notenbeisp., Diagr. (Darmst.
    Beitr. z. neuen Musik 9) 'Schott, B' Br DM 28,- (ISBN
    3-7957-1566-0)

 Notenschrift

Hope this hilft.

Werner
--
Werner Icking           icking@gmd.de            (+49 2241) 14-2443     __o
GMD - Gesellschaft fuer Mathematik und Datenverarbeitung mbH          _`\<,_
Schloss Birlinghoven, P.O.Box 1316, D-5205 Sankt Augustin, Germany   (_)/ (_)
                             "Der Dativ ist dem Genitiv sein Tod." ~~~~~~~~~~~
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: steve@fid.morgan.com (Steve Apter)
Subject: Re: "Pavane..." translation (no longer Re: clarinet)
Organization: Morgan Stanley & Co., New York, NY
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 16:31:34 GMT

In article <1992Aug31.102226.15243@husc3.harvard.edu> elkies@ramanujan.harvard.edu (Noam Elkies) writes:
>In article <BtM1wF.FLB@news.udel.edu>
>conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad) writes:
>>[...]  "Pavane for a Princess from Days Gone By" might give more
>>of the right feel but is much too unwieldy.
>
>How about "Pavane for a princess of yore" then?
>
>--Noam D. Elkies (elkies@zariski.harvard.edu)
>  Dept. of Mathematics, Harvard University

"Pavane for a princessed"








Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad)
Subject: Re: clarinet arcana and transposition
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1992 21:48:15 GMT

In article <CB.92Aug26153129@tamarack13.timbuk> cb@tamarack13.timbuk (Chris Brewster) writes:

>Beware the misleading cognate.  The standard translation of the title
>"L'Histoire du Soldat" is "The Soldier's Tale" and that's correct.  

"The Soldier's Story" is about as common, and also just fine (as long as
people don't confuse it with the movie based on Charles Fuller's play,
which is unlikely).

>Also, I've heard "Pavane pour une Infante Defeunte"
>translated as "Pavane for a Dead Infant", though fortunately it has
>become known, correctly, as Pavane for a Dead Princess.

Even that is a tad misleading.  It's not for her funeral or anything
like that.  She's "dead" because she lived centuries ago, but may be
imagined dancing her pavane very much alive in her own century.  "Pavane
for a Princess from Days Gone By" might give more of the right feel but
is much too unwieldy.

Jon Alan Conrad
From: sekey@engrhub.ucsb.edu (Andrew Sekey)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Schoeck - the schoecking truth...
Date: 2 Sep 92 19:03:55 GMT
Distribution: usa
Organization: University of California, Santa Barbara

Stephen Guthrie asked about Schoeck. Here is some information gleaned from
the Fischer-Dieskau record of his Notturno Op.47:

Othmar Schoeck, Swiss composer, born on Sept. 1 (yesterday!) in 1886, 
in Brunnen, near Lucerne. Died in 1957. Studied at the Leipzig Conservatory
with Max Reger. Wrote some 400 songs. Notturno: "disillusionment, melancholy,
death and decay are elements in this disturbing work."

Andrew Sekey
sekey@ece.ucsb.edu
From: wilcox@vax.oxford.ac.uk
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Last Night of the Proms / words
Date: 28 Aug 92 16:28:25 GMT
Organization: Oxford University VAX 6620

In article <1992Aug25.083608.1465@fokus.gmd.de>, tom@fokus.gmd.de (Tom Pfeifer) writes:
> In a few weeks I expect the annual event of the London music scene -
> The Last Night of the Proms. Since I know about this I'm glued to my
> TV every year. And since then I desperately search for the words sung
> to some of the standards played there. When I was in the UK last year
> I searched a whole univ library. What I found was a lot ABOUT the 
> authors/composers, and a lot ABOUT the Proms and their Last Night.
> But everywhere not more then the title of the pieces was quoted.
> So I ask here if there is any proud Briton or other fan of the
> Proms to send me the words of:
> 
A not-so-proud Brit who hates the self-glorification of the last night can
answer some of these.

> A.C. Benson: Land of Hope and Glory
> (for Elgar: March of Pomp & Circumstance No. 1)
> 
Land of Hope and Glory, 
Mother of the Free,
How shall we extoll thee,
Who were born of thee? 
Wider still and wider
Shall thy bounds be set;
God who made thee mighty,
Make thee mightier yet. 
God who made thee mighty,
Make thee mightier yet.

Absolute tosh, which Elgar set (rather than someone else applying the words to
his perfectly good P&C march) elsewhere.

>Arne: Rule Brittania
> 
I don't know the verses, but the chorus goes:

Rule, Brittania! 
Brittania rule the waves!
Britons never, never, never shall be slaves.

Now you know why I don't know the verses.

> William Blake / Parry : Jerusalem
> 
The poem, which is likely to be in something like the Oxford Book of English
Verse, starts:

And did those feet in ancient time,
Walk upon England's mountains green?

For the words and music together, your best bet is a copy of Hymns Ancient and
Modern Revised (or New Standard)---it is sung by Women's Institutes at their
meetings, and is sometimes sung at commemoration services. It's the best of a
bad bunch.

> 
> PS: Ticket would be welcome :) :)

You might well be able to find a promenade season ticket holder who doesn't
want to go to the last night, if you don't mind doing something strictly
not allowed---a good few buy their season tickets for the real concerts and
spend the last night reminiscing in a pub.

-- 

Stephen Wilcox             |   Remember what happened to the dinosaurs!
wilcox@maths.oxford.ac.uk  |    I did---and look what happened to me.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: conrad@brahms.udel.edu (Jon Conrad)
Subject: Re: Mahler's 5th Symphony by Solti and remastering CDs
Organization: University of Delaware
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1992 13:13:43 GMT

In article <1992Sep1.220115.22548@spang.Camosun.BC.CA> dbarker@spang.Camosun.BC.CA (Deryk Barker) writes:

>I've always thought that Solti's only *really*
>worthwhile Mahler recordings were the 1964 LSO First and the eighth.

I would add the Songs of a Wayfarer with Yvonne Minton.  And the Lied
von der Erde, but I may be prejudiced in its favor by seeing the
wonderful concert that preceded the recording.

>Strangely enough I've still not heard the Tennstedt. 

It's very good; spellbindingly conducted.  The recording quality is an
interesting experiment, varying the spatial setup for the two movements.
In Veni Creator Spiritus they use an "oratorio" placing, the soloists
back with the chorus so that they merge and blend with it.  For the
Faust scene a more "operatic" recording placement puts the soloists out
front (they then revert to the rear for the final hymn).  Unfortunately
the singers are not quite the megavoices to bring off this idea: the
sopranos are pretty but smallish, the altos lightweight.  But it's still
a fine recording.

>I think Solti's
>is good, but - as a performance rather than a recording - outclassed
>by both of Bernstein's. 

Your parenthetical remark is a crucial qualification, though.  Yes,
Bernstein has the greatest *concept* of the piece, but in neither of his
recordings can we enjoy it unimpeded (and not just by recording flaws;
both times there are serious vocal deficiencies too).

>Solti is a formidable orchestral technician,
>but I don't think he's much of a thinker.

This is the standard thing to say about Solti, and I think he gets a bum
rap sometimes.  How about his Mozart, some of the most satisfying on
record?  (I'm thinking especially of Magic Flute -- both times -- and
Cosi.)  How about Moses und Aron, which he has championed repeatedly
during his career?  How about the Schoenberg Variations for Orchestra,
of which he gives the most complete realization on records?  (more so
than Karajan, certainly)  And many more.  I wonder if his records were
issued under pseudonyms, if people would react this way.

Jon Alan Conrad
From: smitra@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (Samindranath Mitra)
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
Subject: Re: Supertitling
Date: 1 Sep 92 20:33:43 GMT
Organization: Indiana University

>>	Incidentally, more often than not, it is the
>>blockbuster operas that come with supertitles. Among
>>last years productions Carmen and Rigoletto were 
>>staged in the original languages. With supertitles. The
>>IU music school seems too think that if you "know"
>>the opera you'll want supertitles.
>
>I'm sorry they've adopted this practice.  I saw them do Carmen 3 times
>over the years, always in English, and it was always gripping.
>
>Jon Alan Conrad


I correct myself, just in case there are other IU people out
there. The production of Carmen last year was in English. 
I had it confused with an earlier, Italian, production
of Madame Butterfly. 
In fact, this is where we sat in the 3rd or 4th row, and
understood most of the words. As I had mentioned in the
earlier posting, me and many of my opera-going companions
don't understand most of the words most of the time.
As you all know, younger folks seldom sit close to the
stage anywhere. Out in the backwoods, sound projection
is insufficient, often.
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: diarmuid@uniwa.uwa.edu.au (Diarmuid Pigott)
Subject: Re: Scelsi piano music review
Organization: University of Western Australia
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1992 06:01:01 GMT

What is recorded of this impressive list?
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical
From: dl@indetech.com (David Lieberman)
Subject: Re: Preparing vs. was-Re: Supertitling
Organization: Independence Technologies, Inc. Fremont, CA
Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1992 01:34:31 GMT

In article <1992Sep02.124921.29301@lloyd.Camex.COM> chrisi@lloyd.Camex.COM (Chris Ischay) writes:
>In article <1992Aug31.211633.33838@watson.ibm.com> jonms@pi.watson.ibm.com () writes:
>
>Now if the opera is in English and the singers' diction is clear, then all
>the above no longer need apply.
>
>Chris Ischay
>chrisi@camex.com

I would just like to return to the subject of Opera translations.  I
have heard lots of opera-in-english.  I've also heard Carmen in
Italian (it is a COMPLETELY different work) Figaro in German and
Danish,  Magic Flute in Swedish (the Bergman film, of course), etc...

I find most of it unbearable.  The English National Opera Rigoletto
is hilarious.  The "standard" Ruth and Thomas Martin translations
are terminally cute.  The Dent translations of Mozart really sound
old fashioned.

I have heard the Donald Pippin translation of Ceneren... oops, Cinderella.
It is very, very funny but I think it is closer to an adaptation then
a translation because he changes the meaning of many lines.

Everybody praises the Andrew Porter translations.  I have never heard
any of them.  Perhaps they are wonderful.  I read his criticism
in the New Yorker for 20 years.  He may write wonderful verse but 
reading his prose was a real chore.  The rules of English syntax
seemed to him a mystery to be.  The simple declarative sentence
makes but rarely an appearance.  Are the translations good or are
they praised because of Porter's influential critical position?

-- 
____*_  David Lieberman             dl@indetech.com
\  / /  Independence Technologies   {sun,uunet,pacbell}!indetech!dl
 \/ /   42705 Lawrence Place        FAX: 510 438-2034
  \/    Fremont, CA 94538           Voice: 510 438-2030
Newsgroups: rec.music.classical